# Help me tame my Brownie troop!



## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

I'm one of three leaders of a Brownie troop (girls 6-8 years old). I was with this troop last year, but the other leaders are new, although their respective daughters were in the troop last year. The discipline situation at our meetings is very different from last year, and I need some help figuring out why and what to do about it.

Last year, we had 9 girls. This year, we have 4 of the same girls and 7 new ones. Last year, they were acting like kids--chatty, jumping up and down, sometimes playing instead of doing the activity exactly as planned--but they were relatively under control. This year, we spend about half of every meeting trying to get them to stop running around and/or screaming, and we are almost never able to have a coherent discussion. Two parts of the meeting are particularly problematic:

When the girls arrive, it's difficult to get the meeting started. Part of this is because the head leader (due to my pregnancy, we decided I wouldn't be the head leader even though I had prior experience) who has most of the supplies tends to arrive right on time and thus needs to set up before she's ready to start the first activity; I know I need to talk to her about arriving 15 minutes early like I do. But even when we are prepared to start an activity right away as the girls filter in, they seem to regard participation as optional and will decide to play tag or something. It's hard to convince them to stop that and settle down and try the activity. (Yes, we have tried a bunch of different types of activities!)

After the starting activity, we have the Brownie Ring, the "meeting" part where we're supposed to sit in a circle and discuss troop plans and take turns speaking. To facilitate this, we have Gates of Silence: Two girls form an arch w/their arms, and we all stop talking as we walk thru it. Then, only the person holding the Talking Stick can talk. This worked really well last year. This year, about half the girls keep talking after they walk thru and settle down only after repeated reminders. Also, they show little interest in discussing anything Brownie-related and seem to regard this as a time to battle for control of the Talking Stick so they can say whatever they can think of to say--like "I have a new shirt!" or telling a joke or reciting their holiday plans in great detail and shrieking "I'm not done!" when we try to redirect--and what most infuriates me is that they often haven't thought about what they are going to say until they get the stick, so that there's a lot of "umm..." The majority of the troop finds all this hilarious, which of course escalates it.

Another problem is that the girls now run out of the room where we meet and wander into other rooms of the church. They NEVER did this last year. They continue even after several explanations of why we don't do that.

I'm not sure how much of the change in troop behavior is due to the influence of one girl, who's new. "Ashley" is very boisterous and tends to talk loudly. She usually arrives a bit early, already firmly set on what game she wants to play (always something involving running), and will interrupt my explanation of the starting activity to shout out what she wants to do. She does participate in the activity once we get one going, but she's constantly shouting impatiently about what she needs (the red marker, help tying a knot, instructions...) often before we've even finished explaining what we're going to do. The moment we sit down in Brownie Ring, Ashley is grabbing for the Talking Stick, and when she's had a chance to talk she immediately begins grabbing for it again; if she doesn't get it within one minute, she rises up on her knees, waving her hand frantically and SHOUTING, "Excuse me!" Her turns to talk break down approximately like this:
45% remarks irrelevant to the discussion at hand or Brownie business of any kind.
30% "I forgot. NO, don't take the stick! Just a minute! Ummm..." followed by irrelevant remark.
10% rambling on and on about something tangentially related to the discussion, repeatedly arguing that she's not done yet.
10% shouting something silly or gross to make the others laugh.
5% actually participating in the discussion.
She rarely seems to be listening to anything the leaders or other girls say. Two of the girls are shy and are so intimidated by her that they're rarely willing to speak at all. Once, when we were playing that game "I'm going camping and I'm going to bring..." one of the shy girls was going to go last and be the one who had to recite the full list of items, and she was very pleased that she was going to be able to do it, but she'd only said a few of them when Ashley started reciting along w/her at double the volume. The other girl felt totally upstaged and almost cried. Ashley's baffled response was, "I just wanted to play!"

I've tried talking firmly to Ashley about being more respectful and listening, but she interrupts w/arguments that she IS listening, acts very hurt, then seems to forget all about it. I'm tempted to talk w/her dad and even say that if Ashley doesn't improve her behavior we can't have her in the troop. But Girl Scouting is supposed to be open to all girls, so I'd rather make this work. Also, Ashley's best friend is the daughter of one of the other leaders. (That leader is very fond of Ashley, but her approach is to say, "Ashley is like that" and do NOTHING about her behavior.)

Sorry this is so long.







If you've gotten this far and have any ideas for me, please help!


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## Linda KS (Oct 30, 2004)

I'm a brownie leader too. I'm going to think about your troop and post something later.

The only thing that is coming to mind to start with is snack. Don't let those kids have sugar.

I'll post more later.


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## Linda KS (Oct 30, 2004)

I think you need to have a meeting with the other leaders and work out a few things. All the leaders need to be there 10-15 minutes early and have the room ready when the girls get there. Start-up activity should be started with the leaders kids and be something the other girls join in as they arrive. You have plenty of adults for how many kids, so I wonder if part of the problem is the adults are not clear on what their roles are for different parts of the meetings. One should be leading the activity and one should be bouncer -- the girls should NOT be leaving the room without permission. One should help redirect. The main leader doesn't have to lead every activity. Each of the 3 of you can have a different role for different parts of the meeting, but you should each be very clear on what you are doing.

The Brownie ring wasn't working well for our troop either this year. It is also a large troop (16 girls) with a couple that have a really hard time being quiet and listening to others, so we are spending less time doing that and more time in small groups doing things that include talking to each other









Make sure that snack is healthy. We were having a lot of problems early in the year and 1 of the changes we made was with snack. We sent a note home saying that it needed to be healthy and listing suggestions for healthy snacks. We now have water to drink rather than capri suns or lemon aid, things like cheese and crackers rather than brownies, etc. and things are much better.

About Ashley, the leaders all need to be on the same page about what behavoir is expected of all the girls. I think you need to talk to the other leader about how her behavoir is affecting the other girls and suggest spending some time on try-its or activities from the GS handbook that address these issues (such as the manners or making friends try-its). The goal of GS is to help each girl develop her potential, so ideally you could all work together to help her mature and develop some impulse control. Talking to her parents about what she needs to work on should ideally be a positive time, asking them to remind her of what behavior is expected at GS. Focus on just one or two things -- such as interrupting the other girls when they are speaking and shouting.

Also teaching the other girls what to say when they are interrupted would help them grow and mature. A lot of girls need encouragement to speak up for themselves.

Our troop does better when we keep them really busy. If there is a break between activities when the adults are trying to figure out what is supposed to happen next, they start bouncing off the walls!


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

She sounds kind of bossy. My father was a HS teacher and his trick for students take over the class room day was to pick the biggest, baddest jock and put him in charge. This was Physics class, BTW.

SO: Could Ashley's energy be directed into getting the first activity put together? Could you approach her in some kind of flattering manner? Make her a patrol leader or something? This sounds like this could solve both of your problems. She sounds like she has some "leadership skills," she's needs to use her power for good.


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## goodjoan (Jan 8, 2005)

I lead cub scouts so I understand what you're going through, though I've not been through it with girls!

1-That's a BIG group. Could you break down into patrols with 3-4 girls per patrol. Maybe even pick patrol leaders and let "Ashley" be in charge of some of the girls that seem to deal with her better. Put the quieter girls in their own patrols so they have the chance to speak up without being steamrolled. Also, they can rotate as patrol leader so they all get a chance in a leadership position. For activitie and such, break into patrols and get some more moms to pitch in to be the patrol watchers. I'd especially ask the moms of the shy girls, tell them how you hope this will allow their girls to gain some more self esteem and show off their leadership skills, etc, but it will ony work if some more moms can pitch in to keep the louder, more active girls from running rampant into everyone elses business.

2- Have a quiet, busy activity ready for start up, a crossword puzzle or a coloring sheet, something that encourages the girls to sit quietly. Perhaps offer an incentive for behaving so they have reason to sit still.

3- Appeal to Ashley's mother. I hate to say it but it sounds like she may have ADD and she may not be able to do the things you desire of her. Even if she's on medication for school it's usually worn off by scout time. Ask her mom to come to the meetings and help guide Ashley into more constructive behavior. We had a boy in scouts that was not only disruptive, but becoming a danger to the other kids. As much as his mom probably needed the break from him, we needed her to stay and keep him under control. He was so disruptive he chased a few kids and 2 leaders right out of scouting!!

4- the talking thing. Keep the talking stick if it works, but add a time limit. Get a stopwatch and give each girl a minute or 45 seconds or whatever. Let them say whatever they want, so long as it's in the time limit. Learning to get to the point and get all your thoughts out in a short time is a skill we all need as we get older. Or, give the circle time a theme and use the start up time to get the girls on task, pass out a slip of paper with the topic for the circle on it in the form of a fill in the blank. When they get to circle time they can read out their line. So instead of random chatter about shirts and pencils you can have each girl tell her favorite color by reading her slip "My favorite color is ___. It is my favorite because it reminds me of ___ and it makes me feel___." or do pets, or character traits or, if you think they'll be nice, comments about other scouts, ie "I really like Ashley because ___. My favorite memory of Ashley is when___" Obviously, if you suspect some girls might be rude or hurtful, don't do that one! Scouts should be a safe place, where girls feel empowered, not belittled.

4- Schedule goofy time. This may not be as important as it is with little cub scouts but as a leader I plan for a race or some other group wiggle time in the middle of the meeting. Relay races allow me to break the kids into teams and let them burn off some energy. Them we start an activity that gets them back to the table, or some days I have them race to their seats









I hope that helps!


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Even though I've never lead this large a group of kids in anything -- I'm intrigued by this thread. I would think the first place to start would be with a meeting among the leaders (3 of you, right?) to brainstorm a plan, and then agree to consistant course of action. Getting there early seems really important, and if this other leader simply cannot be there early, then perhaps you should take over some of her responsibilities? Particularly setting up and running the first few activities.

I like the idea of dividing them up for small group disscussions.

I would also speak with Ashley's parents. If I were them, I would want to know what is going on. You could find a sensitive and tactful way to present some of the problems, and ask them for advice on how to deal with her. They may have some really constructive ideas for you. Or maybe some not so constructive ideas that could possibly give you insight into what drives her.

I wonder how Ashley would respond to having some real responsibilities? My own child can be calmed down immediately (even from a state of frenzy) if someone just gives him a task that makes him feel important and useful. Holding the talking stick obviously makes her feel important and essential. What else could have that effect on her feelings about herself without disrupting the group so much?


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

We start with playtime. I decided i wasn't going to win this one and I had the time sowhy not make the first 30 minutes playtime. Then we have snack only if everyone comes down and cooperates (hey, they don't need a snack. they are only there 2 hours. and if they don't want it bad enough to come down for it they obviously have other things more important to do). then we do the pledge and the promise and sing a couple of songs and I make announcements. really they can talk to each other any time. I amnot big on the talking stick sharing time etc. . . it would eat our wholemeeting.

I don't play games but since you do maybe leaders can choose. or do a caper chart (well do a caper chart anyway if you don't sometimes a mission can solve some of these problems) and assign someone each weak to pick a game.
ourmeeting start off with playtime and snack, then transitional routien (pledge, promise law songs) and then on to try it activities. we do most of the talking ones first and then move on to any crafty stuff where they are free to socialize while working.

GSUSA tells you to put a lot into your meeting but my girls want to do badge work and collect try-its and I am all for them trying new things. They wouldnever hgave time for this stuff if they were talking about thier day the whole time. these aren't shy girls and they will tellthe leaders or other girls without being asked. and if one is particualarly shy or seems like she has somethingto share we will talk to her in a casual way rather than a group way.

last week we kept getting side tracked by very pretty babies so it doesn't always work but hey, who can resist talking about very pretty babies we love.

If you really want to do sharing circle maybe pick one or two girls to talk each meeting. this wil give themalla turn eventually but not everyone every meeting.

and above all else be leaders who lead. be ready to start, and be ready to get to work. that will keep the spiral from starting.

at training they recommended, if you have a problem with lateness start with snack. that way you will have an official start that it doesn't matter if anyone misses. the girls will be settled and you can more easily move on to the next task.

And about Ashley. geez, good luck . . .,aybe send home a note to allparents outlining some of theproblems and ask them to speak with thier dd about good manners and taking turns, ask for volunteers. I was tired of doing it and when I expressed my concerns (after just saying I would quit, I was done) I suddenly had parent volunteers, co-leaders and a new meeting location. I was suprised at how people stepped up and it only took one or two parents and now this seems much more managable.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Lots of good advice here! I will respond in more detail later. One thing I want to clarify now is that we are not attempting to have a "sharing circle" where girls just talk about whatever they're thinking--that is, in fact, what we're trying to avoid because of time pressures! What we're trying to do in the Brownie Ring is to meet about troop business. For example, that's when we passed out cookie order forms and talked about how to sell cookies.

I have thought about suggesting a rule that only leaders can talk at the beginning of the Ring time, to give us a chance to impart some info without interruption, and then we'll get out the Talking Stick to give the girls a chance to ask questions. What do you think: Is that a good idea, or will it seem like the leaders are too priveleged and further irritate the girls into acting up? (Please consider that all but 2 of the girls go to school and thus are accustomed to having to sit and listen; perhaps we're just not giving them a strong enough cue about when to do so.)


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## goodjoan (Jan 8, 2005)

Re- brownie ring time/leader announcements. Our cubscout pack has weekly den meetings but we meet as a whole pack once a month and parents are strongly encouraged to attend. It allows the leaders to get the 'business' done while the moms and dads are there to listen. Lets the kids show off their skits to each other. It is also when we give out badges and awards and do some ceremonies, etc. There is a lot of sitting still required so it's great that the parents are there to help. Even if some parents don't stay, there are enough there that the few lone kids are pretty tame. If a lone kid does act up, the leaders are free to handle it since the other kids are supervised by their parents.

I realize cub scouts are organized differently and have a different focus that girl scouts but maybe a periodic "Awards Night" would allow you to get the announcements done, the badges awarded and other boring-to-6-year-old troop business done while freeing up meeting times for earning those badges and try its and practicing silly skits and song for the award night. I lead the tiger den (6yo first graders) a couple of years ago (and will again next year) and the only time I managed to get them all quiet and still at once, for more than a moment, was when we had a pack dad bring in his snake collection. Half the kids were in awe and half were cemented to their seats in fear! FWIW, Tiger boys MUST have an adult partner with them at meetings. It's understood that they are just not at an age where one leader can control them and still get anything done!


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## LaughingHyena (May 4, 2004)

I lead a http://www.woodcraft.org.uk group for 6-9 year olds.

We have a "silent signal" (eg put hands on head) when things get to much 1 person (adult or child) does this and the others copy as soon they notice. Once everyone is quiet we can jump in with the next instruction.

Also when we've had children that are disruptive when they sit together we will all sit and then play a game that involves changing places. It ususaly manages to split them up without us having to do it directly.

Finally we've found it really important for all the leaders to know what thier role is and then either be preparaing for the next activitiy or joining in the current one. We find that as soon as we have adults standing and talking waiting for the next bit it's much harder to get the children to join in.

I agree withn previous posters about the responsibility, it can work wonders.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Thanks again for all the ideas. Reducing sugar in the snack is something we've discussed out of general concern for the girls' health! We plan to do the Try-It about healthy eating and are hoping that having the GIRLS think about healthy snacks they could bring will help to motivate them to arrange healthy snacks w/their parents; if we tell the parents to send healthy snacks but the girls are wanting to bring sugary crap, then we're the bad guys. On average, the snacks have been better this year than last (different parents...), but I haven't noticed a difference in behavior when we do have, say, frosted cupcakes vs. baby carrots.

Our agenda for meetings is starting activity, Brownie Ring, snack, clean up from snack and set up for activities, main activities, clean up, closing circle. The only change we made compared to last year is having snack toward the beginning of the meeting instead of at the very end, which we thought made more sense since the girls are going home to dinner and *I* am hungry at the beginning of the meeting!







We can't have snack be the very first thing because girls take turns bringing the snack...so we have to have something to do until the snack-bringer arrives.

Spending time in smaller groups is a good idea. We've often done that when we have multiple activities (girls rotate among them) and that does keep them a bit more controlled, as well as reducing quibbling over supplies.

Gotta go--baby screaming for diaper change!!!


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I don't know exactly what you discuss with the girls for troop business but I try to stick with parents meetings for anything important. We do the cookie activity pin and one of the cookie patches each year to drive home selling and saftey tips but that is our activity. not a huge sharing time.

also after being a LLL leader for a number of years I got really good at guiltlessly bring p[eople quickly back to topic (if you think a bunch of little girls is bad you should try a group of SAHM who don't get out much and are super excited to have some adult conversation







). I just stop who ever is speaking and remind. that is great and tell us after the meeting but for now we are discussing XXX jane, what would you do in that situation? anyone have any questions about XXX? Who can tell me what XXX should do? Ok moving on then . . .

Some days are still challeneging beyond belief and we end up ditching brownie ring. we will usually sing a song and move on to activities. I truely believe that my girls need to socialize is an importantpart of why they are at brownies and if that is what they really want to do then so be it. Better to move on to somehting they can socialize while doing. (my girls are all homeschoolers so for some it is the only time they have seen each other during the week since they don't allgo to school together.)

Also ditch the talkign stick. coolest idea ever but for the 5-8 year old set a little too distracting I think.


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## Linda KS (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
(if you think a bunch of little girls is bad you should try a group of SAHM who don't get out much and are super excited to have some adult conversation







).

























This is so funny!

Quote:

I truely believe that my girls need to socialize is an importantpart of why they are at brownies and if that is what they really want to do then so be it. Better to move on to somehting they can socialize while doing.










Brownies is a big social outlet for the kids, but sitting still and listening while a dozen other people talk just doesn't work well. Even in parties for grown ups people naturally break into small groups to talk. No one sits around in such a large group talking unless they are at work or on a committee or something. I can see this being a nice skill for the girls as they get older, but it isn't important enough to let it become a "discipline issue" for Brownie aged kids (6-8 year olds).

My DDs love snack time because they just get to sit and talk to their friends


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

On the way home from yesterday's Brownie meeting, I realized I'd been neglecting my thread! I have a hard time even keeping up with Life With a Babe these days.







Anyway, here's an update:

The other leaders and I discussed the situation via e-mail and didn't make any sweeping changes, but I think it's helping just to be in agreement about what we're trying to do in each part of the meeting. The head leader is now arriving early to make sure the starting activity is set up when girls arrive. One thing I hadn't realized until we discussed was that there was confusion among us about whether the starting activity was to begin w/the first girl there or to wait until most of them are there. We agreed it's the first way. Also, we now start Brownie Ring before starting activity is fully wrapped up so that we don't lose the attention of girls who wrap up early.

This meeting went really well. I think one reason was that we chose a starting activity that we'll repeat for several meetings and told the girls that: We are making cards to send to the soldiers in Iraq, and there are a lot of soldiers, so each girl can make more than one card, and what they don't finish today they can resume working on next week. (Oddly, I hadn't anticipated questions about why there is a war, etc., but I think my on-the-spot answers worked well enough! They made some very sweet, heartfelt cards.)

We structured discussion in the Brownie Ring by having 2 votes, to choose our next field trip and next service project. That worked like a charm. Even Ashley was kept on topic!









I think we're making progress.







Thanks for the advice, and feel free to offer more!


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## wildmonkeys (Oct 4, 2004)

I saw the subject of your thread and just wanted to share that I have a co-worker (I teach gymnastics about 4 hours a week) who was telling me that she is actually afraid of the Girl Scout Troop she is leading this year







She is super fun and runs an after school programs for 10 troubled boys at the facility where I teach and said that this group of girls has thrown her way off center.

With a high energy group it may help to do something with music - kids that age will sometimes really immerse themselves in learning dance steps which would provide them the chance to use some energy in one place.

I would let them know that if they go into other rooms in the church you will call their moms to pick them up - I know it is harsh but keeping the goodwill of the church for future troops is the responsibility of these girls.

Anyway, hang in there. The girl who you referenced does sound like a leader to me - the pp suggestion of putting her in charge of something sounds like a great idea to me. It is hard though....I actually have a class of 9 four year olds - there is one girl who makes or breaks me - she was home sick oneday and it was a completely different class. That being said - she totally rocks - she has a great personality and is really talented - she is just alot of WORK









Have fun!


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## Linda KS (Oct 30, 2004)

Our last Brownie meeting was complete chaos! And it was all my fault! I was supposed to plan a start up activity but forgot (my life took strange turn last weekend so I have a good excuse). Since our meeting was on Valentines day I brought home-made sugar cookies shaped like hearts as well as icing and spinkles so that the girls could each decorate one (sugar makes them hyper, but I couldn't help it. I love heart shaped cookies). I had suggested that we have them bring valentines for each other, spend a little time letting them decorate bags for their valentines, and then exchange valentines. 18 little girls (a couple of whom can't read) all trying to find the right bag was just....well...messy and chaotic and load.

I had a really good time. I think they did too.


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