# Do you care whether your children believe in G-d?



## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Mods, I thought about putting this in Religion and Spirituality but I didn't feel it was apropriate. This is a parenting issue, not one of religion. I hope you agree and you won't close it.

Okay, back to the topic. My DD (6) was asking me what is G-d and do I believe in G-d. We are not a very religious family. I told her that I have an idea of what G-d is but the thing that is most important to me is that she make her own decision as to who or what G-d is, if anything.

I told her that to me G-d is nature - it is not a "he" or an image of man.

I then thought about how it isn't important to me, one way or the other, what my DD believes. Is that unusual? Is this a big ethical or values issue that I am missing?


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

Great question!







I'm agnostic, my husband is athiest. I used to think that I don't care whether my children believe in God ... and I still don't know if I know for sure. I do know that one day my then-9 yo dd told me that her grandmother told her that "God lives in the sky and wears a long robe and has a long white beard" and I was ticked off as all get out! So, apparently, it does matter to me.









That said, I try my best to help my children's spirituality develop in as open-minded way as possible. I sometimes say, when discussing references to God in something we read or see somewhere, "She" instead of "He". Little things like that, to counter the prevailing religious traditions.

Although I'm not sure if there is a God, and I really don't care (no offense to the Universe's Powers That Be! If you're out there ...







), I'd like to think that if my kids got to a place in their life where they really needed to believe in a God-like being, that I would be okay with that.

Edited to add: I have told my 19 yo (the same dd I mention above) that I am agnostic. So far, she seems to be also. We talk about it fairly regularly. My other kids are under the age of 4, so they haven't been introduced to God yet.


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## arlecchina (Jul 25, 2006)

agnostic, as is partner, as is son. son is 12. when he used to ask questions I'd answer as honestly as I could from both sides. ie, "I think this but some others think this or this"


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

I'm a church-going Christian (Episcopalian) and turtle doesn't do organized religion, though she does attend church with me most of the time.

Our hope is to help our kids to see that there are a lot of ways to live a good life, and that being religious (like me) is one way, and not being religious (like turtle) is another way.

To answer the OP, no, it doesn't matter either way to us. The kids will come to church sometimes with me/us, and sometimes they'll be with turtle when she chooses not to attend. When they're old enough to make their wants known about church, they'll have the option to do what they want to do. In the meantime, there won't be baptizing or anything like that. Those will be their choices to make.


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## ber (Apr 5, 2005)

Our family is Catholic, so I know my DS will at least learn about the Catholic version of God.

What I like about that is that as much as I can teach him myself, and as much as he shows interest in pursuing it himself, he can learn about other ideas about God, and in the meantime, have something from his life to use as a comparison.

If in the end he chooses to not believe in a God/god/goddess/Goddess, I would have no problems accepting it.


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## MamaBug (Jun 13, 2003)

: I feel the same way. Though my boys are very interested in God, heaven and the devil and I try to answer their questions to the best of my ability. But if one day thhe either switches religions or chooses another path I will support them in that


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *arlecchina*
when he used to ask questions I'd answer as honestly as I could from both sides. ie, "I think this but some others think this or this"

This is what I plan to do with my young'uns.


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## mata (Apr 20, 2006)

I feel very much the same way. It's completely up to them.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

I'm hoping they do not feel the need for "the big grandfather in the sky thing". I'm agnostic and dh tries not to even think about religion. We feel most spiritual when sharing nature with each other and with our family.
So, that said, they do sometimes ask me why this belief in the "other" is so prevalent in society. I tell them it dates back to primitive times when folks needed explanations for thunderstorms, volcanos and other bad stuff. I also tell them our "salvation" lies not in Jesus or any god but in loving and taking care of others. We do a lot of volunteering. We contribute part of our monies to save the planet, feed the hungry charities and so forth.
One of the reasons I left the sunny South was that many folks there insist that children will not grow up be moral adults without a belief in God. Ugh!


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## bauchtanz (Nov 15, 2005)

It is something that is really important to me. I am Lutheran and we reognize all other Christian faiths. I DO think it is important to learn about all other world religions, too, because this is how you live in the world and make nice with others.
that said, i am a Christian and as dumb as this may sound, I want to see my child in heaven someday after I die. If she doesn't have faith, then she won't be there with me, so yeah. I guess it is important to DH (Who shares my belifs) and I.


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## GalateaDunkel (Jul 22, 2005)

Different perspective here. It's very, very, very very very important to me that my child share my beliefs. She will be taught that this is true, that is false, without apologies. She will not be allowed to not attend our church, to attend conflicting places of worship, or take guidance/instruction from other religions' leaders, before age 18. However if she expresses curiosity we will explore other religions' writings together in our home to compare and contrast, the pros and cons, and explain why I believe they are mistaken. In fact even if she doesn't express curiosity I will probably do a certain amount of this on my own, because it is important to know what's out there to build the skill of discernment. I think that parents who teach either a vague openmindedness or "all religion is made up and stupid" run the risk of their children being among the unfortunate souls who end up in cults, because the child will not be familiar with the nitty gritty of how religion actually "works," what kinds of demands it's normal for religions make on their followers, etc.

However, actual belief will not be forced - obviously you can't force someone to believe - it will be safe to be honest if she doesn't believe - there would obviously be no punishment or anything like that, just sadness - because frankly I would see that as my own failure as a parent, not the child being "bad." I also would not force participation, above and beyond just showing up to church, in ceremonies that imply individual acceptance of the beliefs.

Ultimately I think that God is in control of the level of knowledge we come to about Him. Parents can only set the stage. But I do think they have the right to put restrictions on what kind of spiritual activity takes place in their home.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Growing up I had one agnostic parent and the other atheist. I learned about different religions from friends, sometimes I would attend their church with them or my Methodist grandparents and I went to a Protestant summer camp a couple of years with one of my closest friends. But really I didn't learn much at all about religion until I was an adult and did my own research. (I certainly knew what a cult was though!







)

I would have liked to have learned more as a child simply so I could understand better what my friends were talking about.

I am raising my children in a Pagan home (DH is catholic but non-practicing) - we celebrate Pagan holidays and discuss what each one means and why we are celebrating. But we also attend a UU church and the children attend religious education there - I like it because it teaches about multiple religions.

It would be great if they were Pagan too so we could connect spritually and continue to celebrate holidays together - but ultimately the decision is there own and I'm fine with whatever they choose to do. As long as they don't try to convert me!


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

I am a unitarian universalist humanist/atheist and my husband is pretty anti-religious atheist. We are raising our kids in the UU church because I feel it does a lot to foster a sense of community, spirituality, exploration, and respect for the world and its people.

My kids are very little still, so I have no idea how this will actually play out. Our church has a very active youth and teenage religious education program (I teach the preschool class) so I am hopeful.

I think it is *harder* to not teach your kids any specific concrete thing about God - after all, kids are pretty concrete creatures for a long time.

However, I do believe, as pp mentioned, that teaching them nothing or vagueness can leave them feeling something is lacking - or prey to the influence of anyone who has a great story and lots of feel-good tactics dressed up as religion. I want my kids to feel that they can explore their spirituality and make their own decisions about their beliefs.

Siobhan


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

I do believe in God and something beyond our physical world. I guess I would be disappointed if dd thought there is nothing. I would care but I can't force belief.


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## bright (Mar 10, 2005)

No, I don't care. I will teach my spiritual understanding (I am pagan), but it is up to my children to decide for themselves what their truth is.


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## MomInFlux (Oct 23, 2003)

We're a pagan family. I'm following a Druid path, so the kids get lots of panthiest, "divine is present in everything" from me. DH is Asatru, so the kids get lots of Thor/Odin mythology from him. It's fun. I suppose I don't think it's so much important that children learn about "God", necessarily, as they learn about what their parents think and why and are taught the skills necessary to critically think about religion and spirituality.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

I guess I am in the minority here. But I do care whether my children believe in God.

I am a Christian. I want my children to be Christian. I totally believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He is the only way for us to get to Heaven. I also believe that it is my job to train my children up in this belief. I also teach them that the that although we love everyone, and that we are not better than anyone else, we are right in our beliefs. And it is our ministry to teach others of Jesus.

I teach my children that every moment of every day, every action that we take should bring glory to God. And that we are our happiest when we please Him.

So, yes, I do VERY much care whether or not they believe. I make no appologies or excuses. This is our belief and this is how we will raise our children to believe.


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## MelMel (Nov 9, 2002)

I would hope my kids would know better.

but to each her/his own


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## bright (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty*

So, yes, I do VERY much care whether or not they believe.

What would happen for you if someday one of your children doesn't believe what you believe?


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

I hope that my kids grow up NOT believing in God. But if they decide to, that's their business. I do plan on teaching them about all kinds of religions - that's an important part of human history and culture.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bright*
What would happen for you if someday one of your children doesn't believe what you believe?

I truly believe that if I teach them the right way they will not abandon our faith. If for some reason they do one day walk away from it. I would still love them. I would also pray for them daily (as I already do). I would also be a living example of my faith, as we always try to be. They are my children. But even that does not come above my faith. God is my first priority, above my DH, above my children, and above anyone else.

NOT "religion" or church, but GOD. And I have to follow what I believe no matter if anyone else agrees, even if that someone was my own child.


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## Jennisee (Nov 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MelMel*
I would hope my kids would know better.

but to each her/his own

















:


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I believe instilling a love of God in my children is my number one priority as a parent. So yeah it matters to me.


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## tastant (Aug 5, 2006)

This is a really interesting topic.

I am a mother of 4, principal of a small Christian grammar school, so obviously
it is important to me that children come to know Jesus as their Savior. However, I have many parents who are non-believers or believe differently from me.

I am trying to complete a dissertation that I've been working on forever. Your diversity is what I need! I am trying to compare what parents actually look for when choosing a school for their children with school administrators' perceptions. (In other words, why do you choose a certain school for your children: is it religious teaching, academic offerings, moral teaching, fine arts, athletics, etc...) This info will be used to evaluate marketing techniques used in select classical, Christian schools. There are only 10 questions--it takes maybe 5 minutes to complete.

Please consider helping by visiting http://www.graceca.org/parentpage.html

Feel free (PLEASE) to refer your friends to this site, as well.

THANKS!!!


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## mamarhu (Sep 12, 2004)

Seems to me, religion has 2 (or more) facets; behavior, ethics, and actions as one catagory, and faith and beliefs in another. It is very important to me that my kids grow up with a strong sense of ethics, of knowing right from wrong, and mostly doing right. If they learn this from me, that's fine; if they join a religion and find a structure there for decision making and ethical behavior, that's OK too. The result would be about the same.

Regarding the belief/faith question, I would like my kids to learn to ask the questions. The meaning of life, why are we here, what does it matter type questions. I don't mind so much what their eventual answers to the questions are, as long as they give the existential questions some thought. If they want to "try on" different religions in that process, I will support them. I would be happy if they continue my family's Jewish traditions and heritage for future generations. But I would not really be unhappy if they find fullfillment on another path, as long as their sense of ethical behavior is strong.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MelMel*
I would hope my kids would know better.

but to each her/his own

















Oh yeah.

I think I would actually be faintly... disappointed and surprised if my kids fell back on the "Big Daddy in the Sky" concept of the divine. Especially if they decided to go all conservative and zealous in the process. Ugh.

I'd probably just patiently wait for the other shoe to drop if they DID go all fundie on me. I've seen lots of kids go through a "hyperreligious" phase, and it seems like most of them sort of grow out of it once they become adults, unless they marry another adherent. Even then, they seem to just kind of quietly move on with their lives like most people do.

Though I tend to think that anyone with a seriously critical mind is unlikely to get sucked into some of these fundamentalist sects, and I'm all about fostering critical thinking skills.

I guess, in the end, I'd have to consider it their own little form of rebellion against their atheist UU mom.







And treat them with love while carefully avoiding religious subjects, just like my conservative Xtian mom treats _her_ adult heretic daughter.


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

nope, wouldn't care.

I was raised Catholic and can't say it was for me, but as long as it brings peace and compassion to my children's hearts and not hatred, I am A-Ok with it.


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## arlecchina (Jul 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty*
And I have to follow what I believe no matter if anyone else agrees, even if that someone was my own child.

I am completely with you on that, regardless of the fact that our beliefs systems differ greatly. be true to what you believe and you cant really fail I think.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
I think I would actually be faintly... disappointed and surprised if my kids fell back on the "Big Daddy in the Sky" concept of the divine. Especially if they decided to go all conservative and zealous in the process. Ugh.

I was thinking about this thread last night and I thought "Oh no - what if one of them got all fundie on me! Eeek!"


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty*
I was thinking about this thread last night and I thought "Oh no - what if one of them got all fundie on me! Eeek!"

















Wouldn't that serve us right?


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

:


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

It would really bother me if my kids thought there was a god. I would be extremely disappointed if they grew up and became xians, but I would love them anyway. I have told DS that "god" is like Santa Clause and some people believe in him (this is what I belive, no offense to any xians here) so when one of his friends say "god and jesus iare real" I have explained to him that he is not to argue with them, rather just say that is fine if the believe that, we just don't. Then I do a little damage control with him afterward to make sure he didn't buy into what they say. It's also why we don't celebrate xmas or easter.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom*
Great question!







I'm agnostic, my husband is athiest.

You guys are opposite of use, DH is agnostic (although he does not think the xian god exsists, only some other form of higher power) and I'm an athiest







We don't talk about it though LOL, we would be debating about it forever


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## Brazilianmommy (Aug 3, 2006)

We'll I was a Catholic and my dh is a Christian I converted(sp) myself when I marry him and Yeah it will be important for me, we take her to Church every Sunday and Wednesday(it's open those days) and I want my future children to believe as well.It's so cute when we take her to church she will clap and try to sign in the hymns So cute!!







:


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## Shaunam (Oct 8, 2004)

Nope.

My DH is christian and I'm an atheist. It doesn't make one bit of difference if he chooses to follow one of us in his beliefs or chooses another religion entirely. I just want him to be happy and secure in whatever he chooses to believe.


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## Shirelle (May 22, 2006)

Yes, it is very important to me. Ultimately, when they are adults they will make their own decision, but while they are children they will go to church with us, and be taught the Catholic faith. I am open to answering questions about other faiths, and we can learn about that together if my child shows an interest. We will teach them that while their are other people of differing beliefs, we respectfully disagree with them.


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## darkpear (Jul 22, 2003)

I wouldn't have a problem with a belief in God per se. I'm agnostic, and while I feel that God's existence or nonexistence is by definition outside the realm of human knowledge, that doesn't mean one can't have an opinion on the matter







And I think that the need for faith is a very individual thing. I don't have that need and honestly I don't much care whether there's a God or not; I don't see it as particularly relevant to my daily life. But I know that faith is very valuable and comforting to many people, so if one or more of my kids end up being among them, that's fine. I do hope to teach them enough discernment to stay away from the unhealthier religions.


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## starlein26 (Apr 28, 2004)

Dh and I are both atheists so it would definitely surprise me if our children believed in G-d...but I would respect their beliefs. Because I know that we're doing our best to raise independent thinkers who live a life that feels good for them, content is their prerogative.


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## Leatherette (Mar 4, 2003)

We are devoutly atheist, and are teaching our kids to believe in science/nature, thought, kindness, truth, and ethics. And please note my sig line....

I would be disappointed (and surprised!) if they ended up non-atheist, but I suppose my level of disappointment would depend more on how they lived their lives than on what their personal spiritual motivations were.

L.

We teach different religions as aspects of culture. I have toyed with the idea of going to a UU church, but I think even that would be too much for me.


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty*
I was thinking about this thread last night and I thought "Oh no - what if one of them got all fundie on me! Eeek!"









This actually happened with my brother, sort of. When he was in high school he was dating this very religious Baptist girl, and she got him "saved" for a while. He hid it from my parents, but my dad found out by snooping in his room (yeah, I know - I have issues with that too!) and freaked out. They sat him down and told him he couldn't date her anymore. I was mad at them for that, but it turned out he was sort of relieved; he felt like he was in too deep and didn't know how to get out. She was a really, really nice girl and he didn't want to hurt her feelings, but the Baptist thing wasn't really him.

Now he's a Buddhist monk - still an atheist - and my dad is mad about that, too.


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## mamaverdi (Apr 5, 2005)

My children believe in G-d whether I care or not.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*







Wouldn't that serve us right?









 LOL! Ive always said that one of the only ways to rebel would be for them to go all conservative Christian on me.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Not really my decision. The kids know that I do believe and that I have found a great deal of peace, love, and wisdom in my beliefs. At this point Ds is agnostic, and Dd is something of a laid back seeker. They've been exposed to some Christian stuff that Ive talked about from my childhood (mostly good experiences.







) but mostly Wiccan and Buddhist views because that is the path I personally walk. They know they can ask anything about any religion, and my Ds and I often have interesting friendly debates about religion and God.

My Dh has really been in a seeking mode for the last few years. He most receently is into Sitchin's work regarding aliens being God etc. So the kids have a variety of viewpoints to soak up info from. They've attended a UU church, and Dd attended the Midsummer sabbat ritual with me. If they come to a place in their lives that finds them having a relationship with God (however they define it) that makes them happy so be it. I'd really be disappointed if they ended up being a Christian of the Pat Roberston variety though.


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## Peony (Nov 27, 2003)

DH and I have had many discussions on this topic. We are both very strong atheists, to the point where we shy away from anything religious, holidays, etc... Honestly it would be hard for us if one of our dc turned out to be conservation Christian, it's just the complete opposite of everything we do or believe. I will teach my dc about religion but will not take them to attend church, unless a UU church pops up close to me. In the end it's not my choice to make, and I will support my dc in whatever they choose to do.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

She can go through a christian phase as long as she comes out of it before she is 18.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaverdi*
My children believe in G-d whether I care or not.

How old are your children? Would you mind if they changed their beliefs later in life?


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

Though I tend to think that anyone with a seriously critical mind is unlikely to get sucked into some of these fundamentalist sects, and I'm all about fostering critical thinking skills.
Wow. If you replaced fundie in that sentence with Muslim, Buddist or Pagan, people would have been all sorts of offended.

Or if I said, "It doesn't take a genius to look at the world around us and realize that there has to be some kind of creator. I mean, sheesh, faith in God is just common sense, and I'm all about common sense." Then would people be offended?


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5*
Wow. If you replaced fundie in that sentence with Muslim, Buddist or Pagan, people would have been all sorts of offended.

Or if I said, "It doesn't take a genius to look at the world around us and realize that there has to be some kind of creator. I mean, sheesh, faith in God is just common sense, and I'm all about common sense." Then would people be offended?

I guess technically 'fundie' could apply to Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddist and Pagan. Fundie as in extreme......

I'm not the op of that quote - just jumping in....

I should probably answer.

I don't really care if my kids believe in God or not. I tell them all the time that I want them to believe what makes sense to them. I also present all different types of religion to them.

I do agree with the post about how wouldn't it be funny if my kids did turn into fundies. GAH!!!

ETA: I guess the you have to figure some people could get offended by personal statements the same way people could get offended by your siggy....


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## cumulus (Jul 17, 2002)

I am an agnostic but wish we had modelled a spiritual practice for our children when they were smaller. Even if only to have drawn a pattern on the sidewalk every morning in chalk that would need to be redrawn every day - not as art but as an offering - a sign that I felt that humans were more than biology, especially these days when there are so many messages that we are mere flesh. I'm gradually moving away from wondering whether God actually exists or not in terms of my children's lives into a sense that spirituality adds something, a depth perhaps, whether or not the beliefs are actually true in some way. Such beliefs add depth, layers, meanings to life whether or not they are true and I feel I do not want my children to live life without those added textures in their lives. There's a culture that believes children are reincarnations of their ancestors and the names children recieve reflect that (Babátúndé meaning father has arrived again). Whether or not it's in fact true, it seems to me those people live in a world of extra layers wherein peoples actions reverberate into people who have passed and into people who are growing up. I want my children to have some richness like that and will regret them not having it if that is the way things work out.

Here's part of Bill Moyer's interview with Margaret Atwood:
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/print/fait...106_print.html

MARGARET ATWOOD: Yes. You will say, "What is a singularity?" And they will say, "We don't know." So at some point in the story, there's going to be "We don't know." Okay, so think of it as a stage like this. And in the wings, there is "We don't know."

Let me put it another way. A book came out called THE LIFE OF PI, by a guy called Yann Martel. And it begins by saying, "I'm going to tell you a story that's going to make you believe in God." Then he goes off on this completely seaman's yarn about getting lost in a life boat with a tiger and so on and so forth. And many strange and wonderful things happen to him until he pitches up on the shore of North America -- South America, sorry. Where upon, according to him, the tiger jumps off the boat and runs off into the woods. And he's found starving on the shore, and he's put in the hospital. And then these three Japanese insurance inspectors turn up to find out what happened to the boat that blew up at the beginning of the story.

Then he tells them this whole story. And they confer it among themselves and they say, "We think that maybe your story isn't true. And that there was no tiger." And you know he says, "Well that may be so, but tell me this, which story do you like better? The story with the tiger or the story without the tiger." And the other men confer amongst themselves and they say, "Well actually we like the story with the tiger better." And our narrator starts to cry and he says, "thank you."

So we like the story with the tiger better. We like the story with God in it better then we like the story without God in it. Because it's more like us, it's more understandable, it's more human.

BILL MOYERS: More human with God?

MARGARET ATWOOD: More human with God.

BILL MOYERS: How so?

MARGARET ATWOOD: More human with God because the story without God is about atoms. It's not about somebody we can talk with in theory, or that has any interest in us. So that the universe without an intelligence in it has got nothing to say to us. Whereas the universe, with an intelligence in it, has got something to say to us because it's a mirror of who we are. How about that?


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

To me, it is important that DD be given the language and opportunities to be able to work out her own spiritual path. I really appreciate how I was raised, in this manner.

Both of my parents came from fundamentalist Christian homes and both rejected that particular path, but they did not prevent me from going to services with my grandma and I certainly heard a LOT from the fundamentalist point-of-view from my extended family. My parents took us to a UCC church, very liberal, and I loved it - I participated in the choir, bellringing, had longterm friends through church - but it wasn't a spiritual thing for me, more of a social thing - I didn't tend to pay too much attention in Sunday school.









My real spiritual upbringing consisted of talks with my parents about G-d, nature, the universe, death, ethics, etc. From a young age we discussed these subjects regularly and in-depth. My father had been a PhD student studying the philosophy of religion and later became a minister, and my mother had plenty of things to say, too. They never imposed their views (which were very inclusive and eclectic, anyway) but allowed us to find our own way. My father bought us lots of spiritual books from all different traditions - Catholic, Protestant, Sufi, Taoist, Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish. We were well-versed in world religious practices but always aware of how religion and spirituality are not the same thing, and we were encouraged to find the common roots of different spiritual paths.

As an adult I discovered that cosmology also has a lot to teach me, spiritually. I feel very unconflicted about my spirituality, although my eclecticism makes it a little difficult to really get into following one particular practice. I would have to say that Buddhism is really where I am drawn more than anything, but I find spiritual sustenance in attending church, attending services at a monastery, reading on spiritual topics, reading about scientific topics that in my mind merge with the spiritual, meditation (um, haven't done this much lately







) and yoga (ditto







).

I would hope that I would be able to provide the same kind of framework for my DD, and whatever path she chooses to follow will be fine with me as long as it is spiritually healthy and life-affirming.

My DH is Greek Orthodox and she will be baptized GO, and she will learn the tenets of that religion primarily because it is a lifeline to her Greek culture as a half-Greek child growing up in America. If she wants to be devout Greek Orthodox, that's fine, if she rejects it totally at some point, that's fine too.

I expect she will have her own thoughts about G-d, children always do.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Cumulus, thanks for typing out that interview between Moyers and Atwood! I







them both.


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## Alkenny (May 4, 2004)

I was raised Christian, have had spells that I'd call myself agnostic, newly identifying Christan again. I've always let my kids have their own beliefs, and my oldest was even attending church and youth group services at our current church before we started going there (she asked us to go in support of her, we liked it and stayed).


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## kamilla626 (Mar 18, 2004)

I am some blend of UU/Pagan/agnostic and dh is agnostic/atheist, and he's generally suspicious of most types of organized religion.

I attend UU services and also bring dd there, mostly so she can get some education in the different types of religions, while also being encouraged to follow her own path.

I would honestly be a little disappointed if she later decided to be fundamentalist Christian - or any religious extreme for that matter. I would be more disappointed if her political and moral views also changed to match the "religious right".

More than anything, we want to encourage her to have an open mind, question everything, explore, respect nature, and think for herself.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

OK...

I have been contemplating asking this question, until now I resisted the urge. But I can't resist any longer. So here goes....

Why is it that so many of you would be disappointed or upset if your children became "Christian"? Why is the Christian God the one that you really don't want your children to worship? Why would it be different if they were to begin worshiping nature, or Buddah, Allah, Baal, or any other god?


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty*
OK...

I have been contemplating asking this question, until now I resisted the urge. But I can't resist any longer. So here goes....

Why is it that so many of you would be disappointed or upset if your children became "Christian"? Why is the Christian God the one that you really don't want your children to worship? Why would it be different if they were to begin worshiping nature, or Buddah, Allah, Baal, or any other god?

Perhaps I am not reading the threads closely enough, but of those posters who don't want their kids to become 'Christian', they all have stated they didn't want their kids to become 'fundies'.

I may have missed a few of the posts that mentioned what you are saying. If I did, I apologize....


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## kamilla626 (Mar 18, 2004)

I would be concerned if dd began to follow _any_ religious tradition that represents a belief system which accepts, justifies, or inflicts discrimination, control, or violence upon its members or non-members.

*In my opinion* the way that Christianity is "practiced" *by some people* in our modern American culture, its purpose is more to steer politics, define morality of its non-members, control women, foster homophobia, and discourage critical thinking. The people in my life that define themselves as "fundamentalists" openly and admittedly do this.

I have not experienced any Eastern religions in this way - although I'm sure that any philosophy or sprititual way of looking at the world has the capacity for those same problems.


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## nyveronica (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty*
OK...

I have been contemplating asking this question, until now I resisted the urge. But I can't resist any longer. So here goes....

Why is it that so many of you would be disappointed or upset if your children became "Christian"? Why is the Christian God the one that you really don't want your children to worship? Why would it be different if they were to begin worshiping nature, or Buddah, Allah, Baal, or any other god?

I think they're answering that way because that's what the OP put in her title and original question.

And as an reformed catholic atheist, I too would feel a bit slighted if my kids came home with the holy trinity in their back-packs.

Pantheistic religions would definitely not bother me as much.

ETA: Actually, it wouldn't just be them coming home Christians (fundie or not), it would be them adopting any of the "my g-d is the one true g-d" religions. There's no room for compromise and 'all or nothing-ism' just ain't gonna fly for much longer on this planet. I want my kids to be tolerant and respectful of their world; and not just politely in public. I do not want them feeling sorry for anyone who won't be 'saved' or otherwise compromised because of a different belief system.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lab*
Perhaps I am not reading the threads closely enough, but of those posters who don't want their kids to become 'Christian', they all have stated they didn't want their kids to become 'fundies'.









: I have no issues with my children believing in a Christian God. My concern would be that they would get sucked into a religion that practices discrimination and judgmentalism. This would be a major problem for me.

I would also worry about our relationship as they would likely want to try to save me from going to "Hell" by trying to convert me into believing the same as them and it would be a lost cause. (At least I hope they would want to save me!







)


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

I would be dismayed if DD became a fundamentalist of any creed. Christianity certainly does not equal Fundamentalist Christianity. There are many ways to practice Christianity and if DD chooses one of them, that will be A-OK with me, unless she chooses to belong to a fundamentalist or Dominionist sect. If she did go the fundie route, I would still respect her path, it would just make me personally uncomfortable. But I would trust her to know what makes sense for her, spiritually.


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## kamilla626 (Mar 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty*
I would also worry about our relationship as they would likely want to try to save me from going to "Hell" by trying to convert me into believing the same as them and it would be a lost cause. (At least I hope they would want to save me!







)

Same here. I already have a couple relatives that pray for me because they believe that I will be condemned to burn in hell with demons and pitchforks for all of eternity. Makes it kind of hard to just shoot the breeze.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

I am an atheist, and am raising dd UU. Dh doesn't want to talk about religion at all, lol, so I am actually not sure if he is atheist or agnostic. Not for lack of asking, ftr









I would love for dd to have more spirituality than me. I feel crippled spiritually, largely because of my upbringing. I imagine that faith in something greater would be very comforting and inspiring, and I would love for her to have that experience.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty*
Why is it that so many of you would be disappointed or upset if your children became "Christian"?

Maybe because many of us grew up in the Christian faith and left it. I did, and so did dh. I was raised "nondenominational" (read: fundie), and dh was raised loosely orthodox. We both feel that we "survived" these religious experiences, and not without scars. So, yes, I would be concerned if dd became Christian. And I would be horrified if she joined my mother's church.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty*







: I have no issues with my children believing in a Christian God. My concern would be that they would get sucked into a religion that practices discrimination and judgmentalism. This would be a major problem for me.

 Exactly! Christianity is not a problem for me in and of itself. The issue is one of discrimination. Huge problem.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty*







: I have no issues with my children believing in a Christian God. My concern would be that they would get sucked into a religion that practices discrimination and judgmentalism. This would be a major problem for me.

I would also worry about our relationship as they would likely want to try to save me from going to "Hell" by trying to convert me into believing the same as them and it would be a lost cause. (At least I hope they would want to save me!







)









My thoughts as well. We live in a pocket area of nearly all Reformed Protestants, in which many feel they need to pray for us simply for being non-practicing Catholics.







Dh's hometown is just a few miles away from us. It's population is less than 1,500 and there are FIVE churches, all of which are Reformed Protestants. I love where our home is, but I fear for our children in the future should they somehow become involved in a situation of being "prayed for" for not being a Reformed Protestant. It really makes me so sad to see how things are with religion here. That's not how I was raised, nor was I ever taught in my Catholic school that others who believe differently would burn in hell, but from what I understand, it's mostly us poor Catholics that will be the majority of those burning.







I am joking of course, but many others do believe this.

So, basically, we attend church very rarely and I am extremely conflicted with many, many things. I don't know what I believe, but I know that I don't belive that I need someone else to tell me what I _should_ believe, nor do my children.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kidzaplenty
Why is it that so many of you would be disappointed or upset if your children became "Christian"?

It's really hard to explain, especially without offending someone. But it goes against everything that I believe, I suppose it might be the same for a christian parent who's child becomes a Satanist. I just don't believe in "god" I don't believe in the bible, I think it's all hewey and I would just be so disappointed if my sons bought into any of that. That would be like them suddenly thinking Santa is real when they are 20 or something.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kidzaplenty
Why is it that so many of you would be disappointed or upset if your children became "Christian"?
I would be upset, because for me I see that Christianity has done a lot of harm in the world, and its value system is very different from the values I think we need going forward. I believe it is actively damaging. I don't have a problem with the religion exactly, but with how it has been twisted from what I believe it originally meant, if that makes sense.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5*
Wow. If you replaced fundie in that sentence with Muslim, Buddist or Pagan, people would have been all sorts of offended.

Or if I said, "It doesn't take a genius to look at the world around us and realize that there has to be some kind of creator. I mean, sheesh, faith in God is just common sense, and I'm all about common sense." Then would people be offended?

Well, as Leatherette points out, "skepticism is a virtue," at least in my book. And as others have pointed out, fundie comes in all religious flavors. Not just Xtian-- fundie Xtianity just happens to be prevelant in our culture.

(though I have to say, monotheistic religions seem to have a way bigger propensity for fundamentalism, from what I've seen. I often wonder why that is, or if there's info I'm missing. I've seen it asserted that monotheism = patriarchy, and I find that a rather thought-provoking statement... but that's perhaps neither here nor there.)

What I have a problem with is the black-and-white thinking that comes with fundamentalism, and the fact that ultimately the ONLY thing that the entire edifice is built on is "faith in things unseen."

I don't see blind faith as being any virtue, especially when you're building systems of coercion and manipulation and outright discrimination against other people on the basis of that blind faith. Makes all the rules pretty suspect.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
fundie comes in all religious flavors. Not just Xtian-- fundie Xtianity just happens to be prevelant in our culture.

Definitely.


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Yes, I care, but on the other hand, I know it isn't up to me. We are the sort of traditionalist Christians that most of y'all are averse to, and I am raising my kids in that belief and lifestyle, but I know that as adults they will come to their own conclusions and make their own choices. I only hope that I will help them learn the critical thinking skills to make good meaningful decisions. I would be disappointed if my kids chose to reject our faith, but I would be even more disappointed if they chose to accept it without questioning. And I am teaching them to respect all people, and that people have a right to have different beliefs and different lifestyles. I hope they never have a desire to impose their beliefs on others, regardless of what those beliefs end up being.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna*
I would be disappointed if my kids chose to reject our faith, but I would be even more disappointed if they chose to accept it without questioning.

Very nicely said. I think you stated (in a much more eloquent way) what I am thinking.


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

Quote:

My concern would be that they would get sucked into a religion that practices discrimination and judgmentalism. This would be a major problem for me.

















I think my "issue" with most organized religion is a self-righteousness that I find distasteful. I understand that it's sort of inherent when you embrace a religion that you think your affiliation "has it right" but it just seems illogical to me that there is one true religion. I have a hard time articulating my beliefs on this, though, without seeming disrespectful and that's not what I intend. I believe in religious freedom - everyone worshiping their God/god/goddess/gods as they see fit, and hope to teach my children that - and the cultural and historical importance of the world's religions. I want them to be literate, if you will, in all of the world's varying belief systems - and respectful of what individuals choose to believe.

But I've always loved the South Park movie's take on the whole thing. All of the different religious groups are standing in hell, in front of the coordinator/greater who's holding a clipboard and they're all confused and outraged about why THEY'RE standing in hell. Then the guys says, "I'm sorry, you all had it wrong. The correct religion was MORMON."


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## EStraiton (Sep 6, 2005)

I was raised Catholic but I'm UU now. I believe in teaching my children about all different beliefs and when I'm ask about things like 'where did nanny go after she died' - i give them examples of different things others believe... 'well, some people believe there is a heaven... while others believe in reincarnation... and other people believe we go back into nature and that is the cycle of life, etc.' then I tell them that we do not know for sure, but its important to respect other people's beliefs and to develop your own.

They usually answer by telling me what they believe is true inside of them.

So... no. It is not important to me that my children believe in God. It is important to me that my children believe in themselves and their ability to follow what they find true in their hearts.


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## KaraBoo (Nov 22, 2001)

My husband and I are atheists. He is VERY anti-religion. I wonder how he would feel if our dd grows up and joins a church.

I honestly don't know how I'd feel about it. I love her, of course, so I think we'll just handle it like any other situation in which she likes/believes something different than we do. We talk about tolerance and respect.


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## trinasmom (Jun 14, 2006)

I am in the minority here, but this is how I feel. I am a Christian. Dh is a Christian. I would be very upset if dd chose not to believe in God. I would feel I had failed her as a parent. It is very important to me that she not only believe in God, but accept Christ as her Savior. It my prayer for her that one day we will all be together in heaven. We talk of God daily in our home. He is a part of our lives. I hope she continues down the path we are leading and directing her.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

I am a member of a liberal Episcopal church and attempt to live in accordance with the teachings of Jesus. EnviroDaddy believes in the same principles about how to live and believes that the Holy Spirit is within all things, but he does not believe in the divinity of Jesus or practice an organized religion. EnviroBaby comes to church with me and receives a blessing from the priest when I receive Communion, but he will not be baptised unless/until he chooses it for himself. If he ever decides he does not want to come to church, that's acceptable, although I'd be sad because I enjoy sharing it with him.

I think that being taught to believe in God is useful because faith can be so sustaining. If you're raised without it, it's a hard thing to begin as an adult, as I've observed seeing several friends struggle. Raising my child in my religion not only gets him comfortable with following that particular religion but also gives him a sort of framework for being religious. He can choose to use it or not. I would prefer him to remain in this or a similar denomination, but if he follows some other path I'll try to respect that and recognize how it works for him.

EnviroDaddy and I are struggling a bit with our attitudes toward Judaism these days and trying to figure out what we'll say about it when EnviroBaby asks questions. EnviroDaddy was raised vaguely Jewish (mostly cultural rather than religious) and we bring EnviroBaby to his family's seder every spring; we like the ritual, and for me it enhances the celebration of Holy Week. But we are horrified by Israeli military policy, we are annoyed by the persistent Jewish evangelists in our neighborhood ("Are you sure you're not Jewish? You look Jewish!... Oh. Well, you should start practicing again. You owe it to your child.







"), and now that we're better informed about circumcision we're upset that EnviroDaddy was mutilated for religious reasons. Not sure how to handle all that...

But I grew up surrounded by "Christians" of the type who think it's just great for their kids to beat up anyone who isn't "saved"







:, and my parents managed to convey their disagreement with those people without being derogatory, so I guess it can be done.


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## mamaverdi (Apr 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty*
How old are your children? Would you mind if they changed their beliefs later in life?

My children are 6 1/2 and 2 1/4. My oldest has always believed in G-d, long before we were at all religious or even affiliated with a religion. (We were agnostic, hung out with atheists, and then converted to Judaism...for a variety of reasons.) I mentioned in another thread that I believe he was a French Orthodox Rabbi in a previously life.









I don't mind if my children decide not to believe in G-d at some point or for the rest of their lives. Plenty of good, old, and respected Ravs have been agnostic or atheists.

I am also not against them learning about other religions. I want them to have a good Jewish education that includes high levels of critical thinking skills...something my 6 year old has been honing for years.

I would be very bothered if they chose another religion altogether. Probably more than bothered. But the degree of bother would depend upon which religion and why.

I would not sit shiva for them.

I believe my children chose me. And I have let them guide me to some extent in religious choices.

And I let them make choices within certain parameters as well.

And speaking of them....someone just woke up! And I'm awake again at almost 3 am.

Oy.

mv


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## kolszewski (May 26, 2006)

I couldn't have said it any better than Kidzaplenty back on page 1.

Quote:

I guess I am in the minority here. But I do care whether my children believe in God.

I am a Christian. I want my children to be Christian. I totally believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He is the only way for us to get to Heaven. I also believe that it is my job to train my children up in this belief. I also teach them that the that although we love everyone, and that we are not better than anyone else, we are right in our beliefs. And it is our ministry to teach others of Jesus.

I teach my children that every moment of every day, every action that we take should bring glory to God. And that we are our happiest when we please Him.

So, yes, I do VERY much care whether or not they believe. I make no appologies or excuses. This is our belief and this is how we will raise our children to believe.
I also think it is very important to teach other world religions in fact our church recently had a series on this and compared and contrasted the major world religions. After all, we live in a multi-faith society. I pray each day though for my family that we will continue to walk with the Lord.

ack! edited for bad spelling!


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## chel (Jul 24, 2004)

I want dd to have a general knowledge of the many religions in the world. She's still young, but just recently she made a comment about the "Jesus Boat"







So I think it's about time I increase the amount of info I give her so she will atleast know about Noah Ark







.


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## Mama Poot (Jun 12, 2006)

My husband and I have no "specific" set of beliefs other than there is some kind of higher power/creator, and they take on many forms in different cultures and places. DH studies Buddhism a lot, I don't really study anything. This has caused issues because our families want our children baptised. My family is Methodist, his is Episcopalian







: We are neither and want our children to follow their own paths.


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## MommaCrystal (May 25, 2006)

Well... my DH and I chose to name our son Noah Thomas so that probably answers the question.

I also WHOLE HEARTEDLY agree with this:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty*
I guess I am in the minority here. But I do care whether my children believe in God.

I am a Christian. I want my children to be Christian. I totally believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He is the only way for us to get to Heaven. I also believe that it is my job to train my children up in this belief. I also teach them that the that although we love everyone, and that we are not better than anyone else, we are right in our beliefs. And it is our ministry to teach others of Jesus.

I teach my children that every moment of every day, every action that we take should bring glory to God. And that we are our happiest when we please Him.

So, yes, I do VERY much care whether or not they believe. I make no appologies or excuses. This is our belief and this is how we will raise our children to believe.

And I also agree with this from kolszewski and our church has held many of the same types of classes:

Quote:

I also think it is very important to teach other world religions in fact our church recently had a series on this and compared and contrasted the major world religions. After all, we live in a multi-faith society. I pray each day though for my family that we will continue to walk with the Lord.
What I have learned is how SIMILAR the world's religions are. I have learned how to relate to, befriend, and learn from people of all religions and walks of life. If anything my Christianity has taught me how to love everyone regardless of faith, creed, beliefs, or whatever.

This is what I want my son to learn.


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

I'm an atheist (my parents were extremist Catholics) and DH is what I call an ex-Muslim diest. DH is from Iran, where the default religion is Islam, so he identifies as Muslim but doesn't practice and hates the concept of organized religion (sees it as a money-grubbing entity and I completely agree).

So no, it is not important to us if DS believes in God.

That being said, he is free to choose his path in life as he sees fit. Like most of the non-religious parents in this thread, I would prefer that he not become a prejudiced fundamentalist of any creed, but I can't prevent that from happening. In DS's case I feel there is a higher propensity for him turning to Islam rather than Christianity (because of his heritage and DH's identification with that religion), but I hope he feels the need for neither.

I am also considering putting him in RE at a UU church, because I feel it is important to be educated about the various religions, but not indoctrinated into any religion. I also worry about him going to school here in the Bible belt and faced with mini-fundies who try to convert him. At least if we went the UU route he would have a "church" so to speak.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

no I don't care. I'd care if s/h became a republican though . . .


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

I am an atheist, and my partner is agnostic (he doesn't believe but really doesn't care to think about it either way). I hope that my kids will be atheists themselves, or at least agnostic.

My 3.5 year old already knows that I don't believe in god, and religion will be something we discuss often as the kids are growing up.

It drives me crazy when people assume that we believe and talk about god as if s/he's real to us.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

My preference is that my daughter would believe that there is no god. I have found over the years that when people close to be believe in god, it creates a barrier between us. If I have a problem, they want to bring religion into the equation. It just would be easier if she were atheist like me.


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## Sydnee (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty*
I guess I am in the minority here. But I do care whether my children believe in God.

I am a Christian. I want my children to be Christian. I totally believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He is the only way for us to get to Heaven. I also believe that it is my job to train my children up in this belief. I also teach them that the that although we love everyone, and that we are not better than anyone else, we are right in our beliefs. And it is our ministry to teach others of Jesus.

I teach my children that every moment of every day, every action that we take should bring glory to God. And that we are our happiest when we please Him.

So, yes, I do VERY much care whether or not they believe. I make no appologies or excuses. This is our belief and this is how we will raise our children to believe.

Amen mama!! I completely agree.







I care very much that my children believe in God, but also, I believe there is only so much I can do, and the rest is up to them.







And God


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## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty*
I guess I am in the minority here. But I do care whether my children believe in God.

I am a Christian. I want my children to be Christian. I totally believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He is the only way for us to get to Heaven. I also believe that it is my job to train my children up in this belief. I also teach them that the that although we love everyone, and that we are not better than anyone else, we are right in our beliefs. And it is our ministry to teach others of Jesus.

I teach my children that every moment of every day, every action that we take should bring glory to God. And that we are our happiest when we please Him.

So, yes, I do VERY much care whether or not they believe. I make no appologies or excuses. This is our belief and this is how we will raise our children to believe.

Yup, exactly what she said.

I would be terrified if my child rejected God...it would mean he would go to Hell and I just don't want to fathom that...


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

Its VERY important to me because faith is important to me. I want my children to have that in their lives and I want them to have all the gifts that go with it.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JamesMama*
Yup, exactly what she said.

I would be terrified if my child rejected God...it would mean he would go to Hell and I just don't want to fathom that...

Yeah, that's not what I want my daughter to believe, that there is a god that roasts people in hell for not believing in such a god.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

So many "Christians" have given Christianity a very bad name. It is such a shame that our God of Love has been turned into such an evil punishing god in the eyes of so many.

It is because we have failed to show the world how loving and wonderful He is, and instead we have shown the world every bad trait that we can think of with all our fighting, bickering, and back stabbing. Sometimes it shames me to be in the same catagory with so many so called Christians.

Because the God that I serve has no desire to roast people in hell for not believing in Him. However, He created the world for His pleasure. And He sent His only Son to show us the way back to Him once WE walked away. We made that choice to be on the hell side, not Him, and we have the opportunity to change sides by only asking. I think it is very loving of Him to give us the opportunity of a second chance when we don't deserve it.

Sorry, I don't mean to get "preachy" or anything, but with so much pain and saddness in the world, and me knowing that if only people REALLY knew who Jesus was, life would be so much better, it really saddens me to think of all the "Christians" that give my God such a bad name.

OK, I'll step off my soap box now!


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RubyWild*
Yeah, that's not what I want my daughter to believe, that there is a god that roasts people in hell for not believing in such a god.









Exactly. I would be really sad if my children thought that way.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RubyWild*
Yeah, that's not what I want my daughter to believe, that there is a god that roasts people in hell for not believing in such a god.

I totally agree with you as well. It would sadden me to no end if my children lived in fear based on any religion.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*
I totally agree with you as well. It would sadden me to no end if my children lived in fear based on any religion.

Yes. Regarding religion, this is my only real fear.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty*
I think it is very loving of Him to give us the opportunity of a second chance when we don't deserve it.









See, your take on it is just as disturbing to me, that there is this god that would need for a man to sacrifice himself so cruelly so that others could have the possibility of forgiveness. That seems like a cruel god.

The bible, the new testament actually clearly states that 1) humans are by nature sinners, 2) the wages of sin are death, 3) those who do not know god and follow the gospel of Jesus will be punished with everlasting destruction 4) Christ died for our sins and we must individually accept this and him in order to be saved. What are we being saved from other than a cruel god?

Yeah, I was a devout Christian. I obviously no longer am, for obvious reasons, which is why I do not want that for my daughter.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RubyWild*
See, your take on it is just as disturbing to me, that there is this god that would need for a man to sacrifice himself so cruelly so that others could have the possibility of forgiveness. That seems like a cruel god.

The bible, the new testament actually clearly states that 1) humans are by nature sinners, 2) the wages of sin are death, 3) those who do not know god and follow the gospel of Jesus will be punished with everlasting destruction 4) Christ died for our sins and we must individually accept this and him in order to be saved. What are we being saved from other than a cruel god?

Yeah, I was a devout Christian. I obviously no longer am, for obvious reasons, which is why I do not want that for my daughter.

You see, I guess it depends on how you look at it.

The way I see it is like this. We are already condemned, by OUR own actions. Yes, by nature we are sinners. So without any help we are destined to die and go to hell (the payment of sin is death). But my God sent His only Son to us to lead us back to Him. MAN tortured and killed him. But because of His sacrific, His blood in ALLOWING man to kill him, He paid the debt for sin, which by it's very nature HAD to be in blood.

Now my God is standing there, holding out His hand to me, asking me to come to Him, as I slip down the slippery slope to hell that I was born on. And I have to make the choice, do I reach out and grab His hand and be lifted out of the mess that I am in, or do I continue with my own way, which has only one destination.

When I see how loving my God is and blessed I am that He has given me that second, third, fouth, and more chances, all I can do is wonder in awe as He stands there trying to help us and we continually reject Him.

I have seen no god more compassionate and loving, and less cruel, than my God. Yes, He ALLOWED man to kill His only Son, but He allowed that only because He was unwilling to just allow US to be condemned. He loved us so much that He willingly allowed it so that I would not have to be condemned.

I don't believe in a "religion" out of fear, but I believe in my God out of awe and wonder, knowing that He would give His best just so that I can be "saved" from the slippy slope I was on and can come and live with Him. Just to be in His presence is a privilage, but to be able to call Him Father, now that is awsome!


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

You know, as an extremely leftist, crunchy, *jesus was a hippy* Christian --- I find it is hard to fit in anywhere sometimes







I certainly would NOT fit in with the conservative/fundie/republican crowd to ANY degree (they would probably physically harm me).... but when I tell *crunchy* people I am Christian, I see them slowly backing away, terrified looks in their eyes before I explain myself.

I am A Christian who chooses Jesus as *MY* personal savior, not yours, not anyone else's -- that is for them to decide or not. I try to walk with love, I don't care what you do in your bedroom or who you want to marry. I recognize every woman's body as her own and will stand up for her right of choice over matters involving her body. I don't care who gets married as long as it is two consenting adults. I ABSOLUTELY DETEST PRESIDENT BUSH and probably every.single.one. of his beliefs and policies....

...but, I am still a Christian. I reject most *organized* religion because I think that spirituality is such a personal and unique thing and my relationship with God (as I believe God to be) is unlike yours, or his, or hers, or anyone elses.

I also subscribe to the belief that *all paths lead to God* in the sense that if one is pure of heart and devoted to _their_ God as they believe God to be, even if God is nature, or whoever, then they are walking with God.

I study the Buddhism philosophy as well.

The point of this whole novel is that I don't care if my daughter believes in *my* God or not -- but I do think faith is really important --- I will keep our home and minds open to any path which walks in love, and believes in treating everyone as you/they wish to be treated. Any path which is based in kindness and in respect for self and for others and their choices. My personal belief and choice as Jesus as my savior is just that, a personal belief.

....I would though, go mental if she became a conservative republican







You're on your own there kiddo.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Beautiful, well written post.







To see Jesus in such a way is a blessing.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*

....I would though, go mental if she became a conservative republican







You're on your own there kiddo.


Amen.


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

Yes, I would be sad if my DD didn't believe in God. We are not Christian, or Jewish, or any major (or minor) organized religion, and I disagree with every single one of them out there but I completely 100% believe in GOD. I will raise her to simply believe that God is within her, and all of us, regardless of religion or lack thereof, and that God is love, and she can never be alone because of that. I do believe that there are different realms of the afterlife but that it's a reflection of each soul's own torment what type of hell they are in, and that anyone can go to God any time they want even in the deepest depths of "hell" just by asking. My beliefs are based on near-death experiences- people who have actually died and returned. The vast, vast majority of them come back knowing there is no one right religion regardless of their beliefs before dying. God is Love. If love exists, god exists.

JMHO. I never talk about this in real life b/c people would look at me like I have 10 heads. It's tough being outside an accepted form of faith! oh well.


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## Jaydens_mom (Aug 12, 2006)

When my son is old enough to understand religion and what not i will allow him to choose whether or not he wants to believe or not to believe.
I believe in G-D however, i am not an avid church goer, I don't read the bible, and i don't pray everynight before bed.
I would never make him believe anything he didn't want to , or force him to go to church like my family did to me.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa*
Beautiful, well written post.







To see Jesus in such a way is a blessing.









: aw shucks

*sings* come on people now, smile on your brooother everybody get togettherrrr try to loooveee one anotherrrr righttt nowwww....


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

If my child did not believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, I would be crushed, like the red pepper flakes on your pizza. Then, I would send other pirates over to help bring her back into the light, delivering orzo, penne, fettucini, and angel hair pasta until she realized the error of her ways. Man cannot live on meat sauce alone.

Seriously, I wouldn't care if she were or were not any religion. We are not religious past the occasional UU attendance, but we have friends of many different religions and she's been to church. I wouldn't mind if she were a nice mainline church type of christianity. I would be sad if she were a member of a very conservative, evangelical, literalist congregation that was hateful towards other religions/denominations, gay people, or evolution. Like my brother. We don't have a whole lot to talk about: it's either my sinful nature...or...my sinning ways...or....my lack of a personal relationship with our lord and savior, jesus christ.

I did have a very fiery left-wing Marxist teacher whose child ended up being an evangelical right-wing believer. So I think it's important not to model narrow-mindedness, lest you get bitten by it in the end, in a way you didn't expect...


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RubyWild*
See, your take on it is just as disturbing to me, that there is this god that would need for a man to sacrifice himself so cruelly so that others could have the possibility of forgiveness. That seems like a cruel god.

The bible, the new testament actually clearly states that 1) humans are by nature sinners, 2) the wages of sin are death, 3) those who do not know god and follow the gospel of Jesus will be punished with everlasting destruction 4) Christ died for our sins and we must individually accept this and him in order to be saved. What are we being saved from other than a cruel god?

Yeah, I was a devout Christian. I obviously no longer am, for obvious reasons, which is why I do not want that for my daughter.

This is EXACTLY how I feel about Christianity. I, too, was a devout Christian for many years until I "woke up."

As for what beliefs our DD will have when she is older... well, I'm hoping she'll show ME the way. We're trying to raise her as free from dogma and propaganda as possible, and trying to help her be free from the need to please and the need to spend her adulthood pursuing unmet childhood needs, and maybe in this way, she will have a clearer vision of the truth than I ever could.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty*
The way I see it is like this. We are already condemned, by OUR own actions. Yes, by nature we are sinners. So without any help we are destined to die and go to hell (the payment of sin is death). But my God sent His only Son to us to lead us back to Him. MAN tortured and killed him. But because of His sacrific, His blood in ALLOWING man to kill him, He paid the debt for sin, which by it's very nature HAD to be in blood.

Still, this is the god that created the world and the rules and knew how it was all going to play out. He made the rules when it all could have been a garden party. Instead, it was a set up.


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

I would be disappointed if they did, honestly. I'd like to raise them to evaluate things logically.
And a YEAH to everything Rubywild said.


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RubyWild*
Still, this is the god that created the world and the rules and knew how it was all going to play out. He made the rules when it all could have been a garden party. Instead, it was a set up.

Right. There is a logical fallacy implied when you propose a benevolent and omniscient god. It doesn't really work.


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty*
So many "Christians" have given Christianity a very bad name. It is such a shame that our God of Love has been turned into such an evil punishing god in the eyes of so many. ..

While I do have a problem with some individual Christians, my biggest problems with Christianity come straight out of the bible.


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## clairegrace (May 11, 2005)

Do I care whether or not they believe certain dogmas - no

What I care about is what they do in the name of religion/God. If my child decides to become a Christian - that's fine with me. So would Buddhist, Muslim, atheist or anything in between.

Its their actions, how they treat others, that is my biggest concern.

I was raised in an evangelical Southern Baptist church, forced to go and forced to participate, despite my endless cries not to go. Needless to say I'm not a church-goer anymore.

I do believe in a Divine creator - only because my life experiences has showed me this. I have no label to place on my religious beliefs. But I can't subscribe to any religion that holds themselves to be the "revealed" or "true" belief system - dogmas - as I believe it limits anything that the Divine may or may not be able to do.

Through our unschooling we have learned about major religions of the world - including Jesus, Muhammed, the Buddha. We have drawn on all those teachings to create our family principles - how we treat each other in our home and outsider as well. Most of the principles of major religions are very similar anyway.

My children have attended church with both sets of grandparents - Baptist and Catholic, only because they wanted to go. I don't force them and wouldn't allow them to be taken against their will.

Cara


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

What a timely question.

I had a traumatic religious childhood...brimstone and hellfire Baptist school and church that left me so deeply afraid of God I had no concept that he could ever be a comfort to me in any way. I was only raised to fear him. I never wanted that for ds.

Ds is naturally very spiritual, often asking me very pointed questions about what would happen when we died, would he still see me, where would he go. What worked very well was to ask him back: ie. what did he think, what would he like to have happen, what would comfort him to know? So, that way, I felt I better understood what it was he was needing. In fact, that was a huge reassurance and help to me for years, to just listen to him and ask him about what he thought, rather than jumping ahead and offering very much that was outside his awareness. Ds always had elaborate and detailed answers ready in his own mind. Even as a small child.

I think when he was 9 he read something, like an actual little John 3:16 propaganda type invitation to invite Jesus into your heart. He picked it up somewhere on his own and asked me several questions about it.

Anyway, all of this to say, that he was in the ER last week (he is 10)and we did not know what was wrong with him. He's had many heart surgeries and he was experiencing severe stomach pain. They had run lots of tests and it was late at night. Dh went home to feed the animals. It was semi dark in the ER room and ds suddenly said very slowly and quietly "I've had a very good life. I'm one of the lucky one's. Arent I? You and dad have always been great. I get to do the things I enjoy every single day. I've had a good life".

I was totally floored. Then very shaken up by him saying that out of the blue. I wondered if they were going to come in and give me some awful news, and this was some kind of...premonition.

It suddenly struck me, I don't know why, that I had to tell him right then a prayer we could say. I have never done that in 10 years. I think I said "I know a prayer we could say right now. A Heaven prayer (no idea where this name came from, it popped into my head). I was taught it when I was very little. It's a prayer people say who think there is a Heaven and want to go there one day. How do you feel about that?". I explained a little more about what it meant, and he clearly wanted me to tell him the prayer. I did, he repeated it, it was the best I could remembered of the very simple acceptance prayers I'd been told.

I don't know if it was the right or wrong thing to do but in the moment, that kind of moment, it was just not possible to consider saying nothing to him. I could totally understand why people call in priests or rabbi's to say a prayer over a very ill person. It was too much to imagine never seeing ds again. I could not just nod and say "Yep, it's been a great life son" and leave it at that. Maybe some could, but when I was right there in the moment, I needed to know I had not held back something that, however doubtful I felt over it at times, might have mattered a lot. And he seemed comforted by it. I know I was too.

So, my feeling is that, there may be a very natural path that will be there for each person, and the best way is to wait for the moment where you really feel led to share something with a child. That seems the safest way, the way likely to give them a feeling of safety rather than confusion or fear. I could have spent 10 years preaching to ds like my parents did, or just waited for one moment that it suddenly seemed the time to share something more with him.


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## genifer (Feb 19, 2006)

Heartmama, I found that absolutely beautiful. Right to the very end where you said you could preach to him for 10 years or waited for a natural moment to occur to discuss something so deep and personal naturally. I totally admire your honesty and the beauty with which you handled the situation. How strikingly beautiful.

I do believe in God. The relationship I have with Him is something I cannot describe with words. And yes I would absolutely love for my children to experience what I experience knowing God. However it is not something I force on them. We dont do bible studies everyday and I am very sensitive when it comes to what they teach in sunday school (nothing like hellfire and brimstone type teaching going on) and if they dont want to go to sunday school they stay with me. Faith plays a huge role in our lives and not in the superficial sort of 'I read my bible everyday, look at me Im such a good person' kind of way. I dont fear my children going to hell so I dont instill that fear into them. I talk to them about my experiences about God and we pray together when they ask. It isnt my job to indoctrinate my children, its Gods job to draw them near to Him. Its my job not to interfere or hinder that process.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Thanks Genifer









Quote:

It isnt my job to indoctrinate my children, its Gods job to draw them near to Him. Its my job not to interfere or hinder that process.
This sums up my feelings better than I did. I think adults underestimate the fears, fantasies, and confusion children experience from the words and images of any religion. The one thing that stood out to me in the absence of indoctination or formal religion has been the effortlessness of spiritual conversations with ds. He likes to talk about God, and he feels a confidence about the whole issue. He probably says things that a fundamentalist would feel were intolerable inaccuracies (ds said once he knew exactly where Heaven was and pointed to a corner of the sky and gave me a vivid description of how one could travel there. He was very adament and all I said was "Oh it sounds like a wonderful place!" ) . You cannot teach confidence in God. I never had that, I still don't have it, I mostly have fear. If he that confidence now, the details will sort themselves out later.


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## trinasmom (Jun 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RubyWild*
Still, this is the god that created the world and the rules and knew how it was all going to play out. He made the rules when it all could have been a garden party. Instead, it was a set up.

IMHO God gave us all a brain. When He told Eve in the garden of Eden not to eat the apple it was up to her to listen and do it. Instead like a defiant child she ate the apple. Therefore spiraling man into being born sinners. Yes, God knew how it was going to turn out, why then would he give us another chance? He sent His Son to die for us to give us the gift of Salvation. Would you do that for mankind? I sure wouldn't. God lets us decide whether to acept him or reject him. I am a Christian. Won't apologize for it. I don't walk in fear of God. I am in awe and wonder of Him. PPs stated they were once Christians. I wonder how you became an unChristian? I belive once you ask Jesus into your heart you are saved forever. There is no way to become unsaved., to my knowledge. I have always wondered if as some people believe there is no God, and you spent your whole life living as though there was, what do you have to lose? However, if you spent your whole life living as though there was no God and come to find out in the hereafter there is a God, I fear you'll have everything to lose.


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## kamilla626 (Mar 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trinasmom*
I have always wondered if as some people believe there is no God, and you spent your whole life living as though there was, what do you have to lose? However, if you spent your whole life living as though there was no God and come to find out in the hereafter there is a God, I fear you'll have everything to lose.

What you'd have to lose is the dignity and integrity that comes from living according to one's beliefs.

If you live as though you believe in God, but in fact do not, then that would involve dishonesty on some level. Dishonesty toward one's self, toward others, possibly toward a church...

If there is a God, how would S/HE "respond" to someone who lived their life so dishonestly?

If by "living as though there is a God" you mean treating people well, respecting one's self, living altruistically and honestly, respecting the environment, etc; aren't all of those things possible without a belief in God?


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trinasmom*
I have always wondered if as some people believe there is no God, and you spent your whole life living as though there was, what do you have to lose? However, if you spent your whole life living as though there was no God and come to find out in the hereafter there is a God, I fear you'll have everything to lose.

See this puzzles me. This great almighty God would want someone to live a lie all their life? To pretend they believe in something that in their heart they don't? Why?

I would rather be true to myself and my beliefs then to pretend "just in case". I just can't imagine living my life that way.

I think it's really egotistical to believe that our creator really cares one way or another whether I believe or don't believe. I am good to other people, I am good to the Earth, I try to live a life that I and my family can be proud of. I can't imagine what I have to lose given that.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

We cross posted Kamilla but were saying essentially the same thing so yeah that!


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## kamilla626 (Mar 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty*
We cross posted Kamilla but were saying essentially the same thing so yeah that!


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trinasmom*
I have always wondered if as some people believe there is no God, and you spent your whole life living as though there was, what do you have to lose? However, if you spent your whole life living as though there was no God and come to find out in the hereafter there is a God, I fear you'll have everything to lose.

See, I think this implies that anyone that doesn't belive in God, or a God, isn't or can't be a good person. There are many people who don't believe, but are incredibly wonderful, good-hearted and generous loving people. I see a great flaw in believing that as long as one believes in God and welcomes him into their heart, that they are saved no matter what they do or how they treat others.

My aunt told me, a long time ago, that you don't have to go to church to be a good person and just because someone goes to church, does NOT make them a good person. I will never forget that, ever.

I will not go into details, but I know people who have done some terrible, terrible things in their lives and never miss a day of worship. At times, I think it is awfully selfish to belive that simply by believing in God that one will go to heaven, even if they made life hell for others.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

That is where faith comes in. Many people "believe" in God, or a god. But just belief by itself does one no good. Going to church does one no good. Being "religious" does one no good.

Everyone has done bad things, there is no getting around that. No one is perfect. That is where Jesus comes in. Belief in God alone is nothing, even the devil believes in God. But accepting Jesus into your heart and life, that is the only thing that matters. Your "denomination" does not matter, your church does not matter, your race does not matter, you gender does not matter. Jesus is the Key to it all. And when a person TRULY gives themselves over to Jesus, they will love their neighbor, they will be honest, they will exhibit the characteristics of Jesus. That is our goal, to become like Him. That is what being a Christian is all about. Just because people "call" themselves Christian, unless they are becoming "Christ Like" (that is what Christian means) they are just being "religious". It is a heart change that matters, not just an appearance change.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trinasmom*
I have always wondered if as some people believe there is no God, and you spent your whole life living as though there was, what do you have to lose? However, if you spent your whole life living as though there was no God and come to find out in the hereafter there is a God, I fear you'll have everything to lose.

I believe what she was saying was not that you are to live a lie, for God looks at the heart and not the outward apprearance and there is no way to trick him, but that by giving Him a chance you have nothing to lose. He will show Himself to anyone that really wants to know Him.

He is the Creator, and He does care whether or not we believe in Him. He really does love us. But He gave us a choice. Back in the garden of Eden, He gave Adam a free will. He never wanted robots, He wanted a companion. Adam CHOOSE to disobey one simple little thing and in doing so, thrust all mankind in sin. But God was still there. He led and guided man through the ages and then He sent His Son, Jesus, to give us direct access back to Him that we lost when sin divided us from Him.

It is not my job to just "not interfere" with my children's belief. But it is my job to guide them to the right belief. I can not choose for them. But I can show them the door and pray that they walk through. One day He is coming to gather His family to His side. And I pray on that day that no one would be left behind, especially my children that I love so much. Everyone must make their own decisions. Everyone must choose to accept or deny Jesus. That choice is a personal one that no one can make for you. So, I give my children all the facts and allow them to choose. But to choose, I must present all the facts to them. Why would I be OK to just allow them to walk away from our God and His Son when I KNOW that that is the only way? I would be irresponsible if I just allowed them to choose what ever they "felt" was a good path. Their very souls are at stake, and I will do EVERYTHING in my power to bring them to the One True God. But, the choice, once brought before Him, is their's alone.


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## darkpear (Jul 22, 2003)

:


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty*
Everyone has done bad things, there is no getting around that. No one is perfect. That is where Jesus comes in. Belief in God alone is nothing, even the devil believes in God. But accepting Jesus into your heart and life, that is the only thing that matters. Your "denomination" does not matter, your church does not matter, your race does not matter, you gender does not matter. Jesus is the Key to it all. *And when a person TRULY gives themselves over to Jesus, they will love their neighbor, they will be honest, they will exhibit the characteristics of Jesus.* That is our goal, to become like Him. That is what being a Christian is all about. Just because people "call" themselves Christian, unless they are becoming "Christ Like" (that is what Christian means) they are just being "religious". It is a heart change that matters, not just an appearance change.

I agree with and I disagree.







I am reading your post, as well, to be saying that one cannot be a good person without actively trying to be like Jesus. Is that what you are saying? Even one who lives life in that manner will go to hell if it isn't in the name of Jesus or for God?


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## kimiij (Jun 18, 2006)

I would care very much if my future kids don't believe in God. I have to live my life in the way I think is right (the only way in my opinion_ and that includes teaching my kids about God and his love for all of us.

And by the way...Christianity is not about "being a good person." It's not about us!


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kimiij*
And by the way...Christianity is not about "being a good person."

Well, that's pretty darn obvious in today's world.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*
I agree with and I disagree.







I am reading your post, as well, to be saying that one cannot be a good person without actively trying to be like Jesus. Is that what you are saying? Even one who lives life in that manner will go to hell if it isn't in the name of Jesus or for God?

Any one can be a "good person" and any one can have good morals, and not every "Christian" is considered a "good person" at first glance. However, a true Christian will start out where they are and begin improving themselves by following Christ and becoming more and more like Him as they grow and mature in Christianity. So all Christians have flaws.

As for our life after death. I totally believe that my God is the One True God the Creator of everything. And I also believe that He sent His only Son to die in my place, for my sins. I also believe that He was raised up to life again and assended back to God, His Father, in Heaven. Heaven is God's home. He wants everyone, all His creation to join Him there, to live there with Him. However, He will not allow those in who deny His name. Why should He, it is His home. I would not allow a stranger into my home, and if we deny Him, we are at best a stranger, at worst, His enemy. I also believe that there are only two choices in the afterlife. One with God and one without.

So to get to the very basics, yes, I believe that anyone that dies without accepting Jesus as their Saviour will be condemned by their own choice of denying Him. We all have a freewill to choose. I do not condemn anyone. I love everyone. And I do my best to be the best Christlike person that I can, by showing love to all no matter what they believe. I do not think I am better than anyone else, as a matter of fact, many times I feel much less than most. And I try to think of everyone else above myself at all times. But I will not compromise my beliefs for no one.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Oh dear, I just realized that my question was totally stupid.














: Someone who doesn't believe in God probably doesn't believe in hell either. So the issue of going to hell for them would be a non-issue, hey?


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty*
and if we deny Him, we are at best a stranger, at worst, His enemy. ..
So to get to the very basics, yes, I believe that anyone that dies without accepting Jesus as their Saviour will be condemned by their own choice of denying Him. ...

I believe that believers are wasting their time at best, and often doing horrible things at worst, in the name of imaginary dieties.


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## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty*
Any one can be a "good person" and any one can have good morals, and not every "Christian" is considered a "good person" at first glance. However, a true Christian will start out where they are and begin improving themselves by following Christ and becoming more and more like Him as they grow and mature in Christianity. So all Christians have flaws.

As for our life after death. I totally believe that my God is the One True God the Creator of everything. And I also believe that He sent His only Son to die in my place, for my sins. I also believe that He was raised up to life again and assended back to God, His Father, in Heaven. Heaven is God's home. He wants everyone, all His creation to join Him there, to live there with Him. However, He will not allow those in who deny His name. Why should He, it is His home. I would not allow a stranger into my home, and if we deny Him, we are at best a stranger, at worst, His enemy. I also believe that there are only two choices in the afterlife. One with God and one without.

So to get to the very basics, yes, I believe that anyone that dies without accepting Jesus as their Saviour will be condemned by their own choice of denying Him. We all have a freewill to choose. I do not condemn anyone. I love everyone. And I do my best to be the best Christlike person that I can, by showing love to all no matter what they believe. I do not think I am better than anyone else, as a matter of fact, many times I feel much less than most. And I try to think of everyone else above myself at all times. But I will not compromise my beliefs for no one.

Very well said







:


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boingo82*
I believe that believers are wasting their time at best, and often doing horrible things at worst, in the name of imaginary dieties.

I agree with the second half of this, and I am not sure about the first. I found this letter to the editor in today's paper rather interesting. God and war simply don't mix

Quote:

No matter how the proponents of perpetual global conflict and war try to rationalize and justify their violent acts, God and war simply don't mix.

With all the frenzy created with the upcoming U.S. political campaigns and the surfacing of another plot to terrorize the United States, the "war on terror" has once again taken front and center. Foolish leaders on both sides of this "failure of humanity" insist they will defeat (kill) the "evil doers."
I posted a thread in Religion not too long ago about my struggles with how most major world conflict is based on one religious belief or another and it disturbs me greatly.


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## kimiij (Jun 18, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*
Well, that's pretty darn obvious in today's world.

What were you thinking kim?







You shoud know better than to go off topic in a religious thread!









kim


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*
I agree with the second half of this, and I am not sure about the first. I found this letter to the editor in today's paper rather interesting. God and war simply don't mix
I posted a thread in Religion not too long ago about my struggles with how most major world conflict is based on one religious belief or another and it disturbs me greatly.

Anne Lamott: "You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do."

Blaise Paschal: "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boingo82*
I believe that believers are wasting their time at best

Thats how my FIL tried to sell religion to us. Saying *if* there wasn's a god, he lived his life out believing that there was one, no harm done but *if* there is one he gets to live in heaven when he dies







He found god sitting in a jail cell.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boingo82*
Anne Lamott: "You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do."

Blaise Paschal: "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sharlla*
Thats how my FIL tried to sell religion to us. Saying *if* there wasn's a god, he lived his life out believing that there was one, no harm done but *if* there is one he gets to live in heaven when he dies







He found god sitting in a jail cell.









, I have had someone try to pitch it to me like that too.
He said that he believed, because why not, when you might get into heaven!
I said, "You don't think God will see right through that?"

Actually...fun next topic. Which is better? Being a non-believer, but a good person, because you believe that is the right thing to do.....or being a believer who is "good" only because you are trying to get yours too?
My (LDS) coworker maintains that it's morally superior to be the latter. I disagree.


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## darkpear (Jul 22, 2003)

The problem with Pascal's wager is that it presupposes that the Bible is true and that God is the Christian God.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty*
Why is it that so many of you would be disappointed or upset if your children became "Christian"? Why is the Christian God the one that you really don't want your children to worship? Why would it be different if they were to begin worshiping nature, or Buddah, Allah, Baal, or any other god?

I haven't finished this entire thread yet, but I would be disappointed if my children became Christians because most Christianity is, by it's very nature, exclusionary. It strikes me as exceedingly arrogant to say "My way is the one and only way! Nobody can relate to their spirituality unless they do it this way!" Come now; we don't all wear the same size shoes. We don't all have the same length gait. We can't all relate to the physical world in exactly the same way, so how could we possibly relate to the spiritual world in exactly the same way? It just doesn't make sense to me.

There are Christians who are far more open-minded than this, but the overwhelming majority are not. They adhere to doctrines which expressly state that things must be done this way or they may as well not be done at all. I can't accept that, and I'd be extremely disappointed (perhaps even despondant) if my children could.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boingo82*
Which is better? Being a non-believer, but a good person, because you believe that is the right thing to do.....or being a believer who is "good" only because you are trying to get yours too?

I was just thinking about that same thing yesterday. I would much rather have children that do the right thing because they feel in their hearts that it's better to do so then to have them only doing the right thing to get to Heaven or whatever.


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## kamilla626 (Mar 18, 2004)

This thread reminds me of a joke from the comedian Emo Philips, (might not have the exact words):

"When I was a kid I used to pray every single night for a new bicycle. Then later I realized that the Lord - in His wisdom - doesn't work that way....

So I stole one and asked him to forgive me!"


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boingo82*
Actually...fun next topic. Which is better? Being a non-believer, but a good person, because you believe that is the right thing to do.....or being a believer who is "good" only because you are trying to get yours too?
My (LDS) coworker maintains that it's morally superior to be the latter. I disagree.

I disagree too. I think it's revolting to think of the fact that so many people believe this too.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

My dh pointed out something recently. He and I agree that religion often gets a free pass on expectations of evidence.

If someone tells me a *fact*, I expect there to be evidence to back up that fact - if there is no evidence, then it isn't a fact, it is an opinion or a belief.

We have a pretty good (but not perfect because it is implemented by people) method of collecting and testing evidence - it is called the scientific method.

If you apply the scientific method to religion, you quickly see there is no evidence for God. Believe me, if there were hard, repeatable, independently verifiable evidence for God, intelligent design, etc, scientists would fall over themselves to publish it in a peer reviewed journal - can't you just smell the Nobel prize?

It is incredibly important for my children to understand the scientific method and to apply reason to what they are told. How can I tell my children to *not believe everything you are told or read unless you trust the source* and then tell them to not question X or Y because it is classified as religion?

Yes, there is a certain amount of faith involved in daily life. I have faith that my car company did its research on how to create effective brakes - but that faith is backed up by knowledge of the context in which that company makes its products - i.e. if they put out faulty brakes, someone else would make a better product and/or the company would get sued, fined, etc.

So in summary, our non-belief in God comes down to our entire belief systems about truth and trust. What evidence is acceptable? Who can you trust? What can you trust?

My own musings, as always.
Siobhan


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## darkpear (Jul 22, 2003)

Yep. It all ultimately comes down to having faith in something that isn't verifiable and in fact contradicts most of the available evidence.

(Though my own agnosticism, rather than atheism, rests on the idea that if there is a God, he/she/it would have to be outside the universe we can detect. I am also somewhat attracted to pantheism and the idea that we are all part of God, or at least of a universal life or consciousness, which would also be undetectable from the inside, in the same way that a single cell in our bodies does not perceive or comprehend the whole.)

I don't have a problem with religion as a _metaphor_ for how the universe works, though. I think the issue is when people get all hung up on literalism, and that's what I hope for my children to avoid.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

I don't mind if they believe or don't believe in God, but I'd hate for them to start thinking there was only one path to higher consciousness. I'd hate for them to be Republican, too!

I believe there are many paths and each of us walks our own.


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## zksgreen (Mar 23, 2006)

I don't care if my children believe in god someday. I will do everything I can to help them get in touch with thier inner spirituality & divinity. Whether they are able to touch that spirit by communing with nature, meditating, or kneeling in front of a cross, I don't really care.

However, I will be really disappointed if they become rigid thinkers. I will be greatly disappointed if they are compassionless.

I will also teach them that there have been many wise teachers throughout the ages, male and female. That we don't have to reinvent the wheel, we can learn from the past. I really liked what a pp said about adding texture to your life with spirituality.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

I believe the human journey sometimes includes a religious phase, and its developmental, sort of like one expects a child to have potty accidents while learning to use the potty. It will pass. It SHOULD pass.

Just as every child develops at their own pace, I try to see Christians as deserving of compassion, especially since they seem stuck in such a fear-based place.


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## trinasmom (Jun 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*
See, I think this implies that anyone that doesn't belive in God, or a God, isn't or can't be a good person. There are many people who don't believe, but are incredibly wonderful, good-hearted and generous loving people. I see a great flaw in believing that as long as one believes in God and welcomes him into their heart, that they are saved no matter what they do or how they treat others.

My aunt told me, a long time ago, that you don't have to go to church to be a good person and just because someone goes to church, does NOT make them a good person. I will never forget that, ever.

I will not go into details, but I know people who have done some terrible, terrible things in their lives and never miss a day of worship. At times, I think it is awfully selfish to belive that simply by believing in God that one will go to heaven, even if they made life hell for others.

I didn't mean to imply that if you don't believe in God you are not a good person. That is simply not true. I know a lot of people that don't worship God, or attend a church but by worldly standards they are good people. They treat people with respect, they would give the shirt off their backs to help someone else etc. On the other hand if you are a Christian then you want to love others as God loves you therefore treating everyone with respect and love, not condem them or put them down. That is not my intentions ever. I agree you don't have to attend church to be a good person. Most Christians attend church to worship with other Christians, to ask forgiveness for their sins and to learn more about God. There are those who hide behind the church using it as an excuse to sin therefore giving God's church a bad name. I feel that I don't make life Hell for others, I very simply share my faith with them. If they want to hear it great! If not, I understand. I am not pushy about it. It is everyone's choice whether to accept or reject God. I do believe that once you are saved no matter what you do if you go to God with a humble heart and ask forgiveness and truly repent He will forgive you. As a Christian I strive each day to bring glory to God, by being kind to my neighbors, not lying, cheating, stealing, etc. I am a loving wife and mother and I am raising my daughter to the best of my ability, just like the rest of you, but that does not make me better than anyone else.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie*
I believe the human journey sometimes includes a religious phase, and its developmental, sort of like one expects a child to have potty accidents while learning to use the potty. It will pass. It SHOULD pass.

Just as every child develops at their own pace, I try to see Christians as deserving of compassion, especially since they seem stuck in such a fear-based place.

I can see your belief for what it is, however, I just had to interject.

I, and most of the Chirstians that I know, are not "Christians" out of fear. We are not in a "fear based place". We are IN LOVE with Jesus. We are in a LOVE based place. True, there are exceptions to every rule. But Christianity is not a "fear based religion" although some like to portray it as such.

I am not a Christian because I am scared of going to hell. I am not even a Christian so that I can go to Heaven. I LOVE Jesus with my whole heart. I am a Christ like person, striving to be more like my Saviour every day. Always thinking of other first. And I do all this because I want to please my Love, not because I am scared of God's punishment.


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## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty*
I can see your belief for what it is, however, I just had to interject.

I, and most of the Chirstians that I know, are not "Christians" out of fear. We are not in a "fear based place". We are IN LOVE with Jesus. We are in a LOVE based place. True, there are exceptions to every rule. But Christianity is not a "fear based religion" although some like to portray it as such.

I am not a Christian because I am scared of going to hell. I am not even a Christian so that I can go to Heaven. I LOVE Jesus with my whole heart. I am a Christ like person, striving to be more like my Saviour every day. Always thinking of other first. And I do all this because I want to please my Love, not because I am scared of God's punishment.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty*
I can see your belief for what it is, however, I just had to interject.

I, and most of the Chirstians that I know, are not "Christians" out of fear. We are not in a "fear based place". We are IN LOVE with Jesus. We are in a LOVE based place. True, there are exceptions to every rule. But Christianity is not a "fear based religion" although some like to portray it as such.

I am not a Christian because I am scared of going to hell. I am not even a Christian so that I can go to Heaven. I LOVE Jesus with my whole heart. I am a Christ like person, striving to be more like my Saviour every day. Always thinking of other first. And I do all this because I want to please my Love, not because I am scared of God's punishment.

See, now you're the kind of Christian that I grew up around.







I believe, too that certain religious groups, perhaps just certain areas too, have altered Christianity to what they feel is what it is. The area that I grew up in did not seem to be judgemental of those who belived otherwise, but the area that we now live in is not so good about that. Those with the harshest words seem to ring louder, don't they?


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*
See, now you're the kind of Christian that I grew up around.







I believe, too that certain religious groups, perhaps just certain areas too, have altered Christianity to what they feel is what it is. The area that I grew up in did not seem to be judgemental of those who belived otherwise, but the area that we now live in is not so good about that. Those with the harshest words seem to ring louder, don't they?

Honestly, after going to a Catholic school for three years even, I never heard people refer to themselves as God-fearing people until we moved to the area we are in now. That's not right, is it?


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty*
I can see your belief for what it is, however, I just had to interject.

I, and most of the Chirstians that I know, are not "Christians" out of fear. We are not in a "fear based place". We are IN LOVE with Jesus. We are in a LOVE based place. True, there are exceptions to every rule. But Christianity is not a "fear based religion" although some like to portray it as such.

I am not a Christian because I am scared of going to hell. I am not even a Christian so that I can go to Heaven. I LOVE Jesus with my whole heart. I am a Christ like person, striving to be more like my Saviour every day. Always thinking of other first. And I do all this because I want to please my Love, not because I am scared of God's punishment.

Kidzaplenty, while I totally respect your personal beliefs on this issue, you have often invoked the so-called "No True Scotsman" fallacy on this thread.

From Wikipedia:

Quote:

No true Scotsman is a term coined by Antony Flew in his 1975 book Thinking About Thinking. It refers to an argument which takes this form:

Argument: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
Reply: "But my uncle Angus likes sugar with his porridge."
Rebuttal: "Ah yes, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."

This form of argument is a fallacy if the predicate ("putting sugar on porridge") is not actually contradictory for the accepted definition of the subject ("Scotsman"), or if the definition of the subject is silently adjusted after the fact to make the rebuttal work.
Christians are Christians. There are different "flavors" of Christians, so to speak, but they are _all_ Christians. It is fine to say that "no true Christian" would believe out of a fear of God, but it is a logical fallacy that doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Those Christians who do fear god could just as easily say that "no true Christians" would claim their faith is based in love (or whatever).

You are certainly free to believe however you want, but that doesn't proscribe other Christians from believing a different way.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisac77*
Christians are Christians. There are different "flavors" of Christians, so to speak, but they are _all_ Christians. It is fine to say that "no true Christian" would believe out of a fear of God, but it is a logical fallacy that doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Those Christians who do fear god could just as easily say that "no true Christians" would claim their faith is based in love (or whatever).

You are certainly free to believe however you want, but that doesn't proscribe other Christians from believing a different way.

Very interesting point of view. I think it makes a lot of sense.


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## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

For me it's both. I'm a Christian because I love the Lord with all my heart, I love to be in His house, I love to serve others like Christ served. I serve out of love for Christ, not out of fear. I love Christ because I'm in awe of His love for me.

But I know the consequences of not believing

For me it's almost like breastfeeding. I do it not only because I enjoy it and I love my son. I love our special time together, I love the bonding and being close to him. And because I know the consequenses of not breastfeeding. But the health reasons are not my only reason, or even my main reason. Thats just added. Even if science were somehow able to duplicate breastmilk 100% and it were free, I'd still breastfeed.

Does that make sense?


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisac77*
Christians are Christians. There are different "flavors" of Christians, so to speak, but they are _all_ Christians. It is fine to say that "no true Christian" would believe out of a fear of God, but it is a logical fallacy that doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Those Christians who do fear god could just as easily say that "no true Christians" would claim their faith is based in love (or whatever).

You are certainly free to believe however you want, but that doesn't proscribe other Christians from believing a different way.

This, I guess is how you define "Christian". ANYONE can CALL themselves a "Christian". However, in reality, only a person that has accepted Christ into their lives as their personal Saviour, a person that decides to follow Jesus Christ is a true Christian. All other "Christians" are just "religious". Just because a person goes to church and reads the Bible, if you do not accept Jesus Christ, then you can not be "Christian", as that is the defination of "Christian" - to be Christ Like.

I use the term "true Christian" to define exactly that, a person that believes that Jesus is the Son of the One True God, that gave His life for our sins, and was raised again to life and ascended back to the Father. Having accepted these truthes, and repented of their sins, this person is then a "true Christian", it does not matter what denomination or church they go to. Because this change takes place in the heart, there are many that just "play Christian" or that "play church". Just following the actions of other Christians does not make one a Christian. Just going to a Christian church does not make one a Christian. It must be made at the heart level, between you and God. No one knows where you stand except you and God.

So, when I use the term "true Christian" I am speaking about those that have a real, personal relationship with Jesus Christ. And I can say that true Christains try their best to become more and more like their Saviour. I will stand behind that statement. We will fail at times, just as all humans fail. But we will strive to be Christ like in everything we do.


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty*
This, I guess is how you define "Christian". ANYONE can CALL themselves a "Christian". However, in reality, only a person that has accepted Christ into their lives as their personal Saviour, a person that decides to follow Jesus Christ is a true Christian. All other "Christians" are just "religious". Just because a person goes to church and reads the Bible, if you do not accept Jesus Christ, then you can not be "Christian", as that is the defination of "Christian" - to be Christ Like.

I use the term "true Christian" to define exactly that, a person that believes that Jesus is the Son of the One True God, that gave His life for our sins, and was raised again to life and ascended back to the Father. Having accepted these truthes, and repented of their sins, this person is then a "true Christian", it does not matter what denomination or church they go to. Because this change takes place in the heart, there are many that just "play Christian" or that "play church". Just following the actions of other Christians does not make one a Christian. Just going to a Christian church does not make one a Christian. It must be made at the heart level, between you and God. No one knows where you stand except you and God.

So, when I use the term "true Christian" I am speaking about those that have a real, personal relationship with Jesus Christ. And I can say that true Christains try their best to become more and more like their Saviour. I will stand behind that statement. We will fail at times, just as all humans fail. But we will strive to be Christ like in everything we do.

Yes, but, see.... I guess what I am trying to say here is "Who are you to judge?" Although that sounds kind of harsh and I certainly don't mean it that way. That is how YOU define Christianity. You don't speak for everyone in the world who is a Christian. You don't know what is in their hearts or minds.

Additionally, I think that a lot of people who come at Chrisitianity from a "god fearing" standpoint are completely justified in their beliefs, because from a historical point of view, Christianity is a religion of subversion and fear. The kind of Christianity that you believe is a much softened-up, new age version, in my personal opinion.

The "no true Christian" defense just doesn't work....


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisac77*
Yes, but, see.... I guess what I am trying to say here is "Who are you to judge?" Although that sounds kind of harsh and I certainly don't mean it that way. That is how YOU define Christianity. You don't speak for everyone in the world who is a Christian. You don't know what is in their hearts or minds.

Additionally, I think that a lot of people who come at Chrisitianity from a "god fearing" standpoint are completely justified in their beliefs, because from a historical point of view, Christianity is a religion of subversion and fear. The kind of Christianity that you believe is a much softened-up, new age version, in my personal opinion.

The "no true Christian" defense just doesn't work....

I don't take any offense at your statement. But I am in no way judging anyone. Just stating what a basic defination of "Christian" is. Anyone in the entire world, if they say they are a "Christian" then they are generally either a "true Christian" or someone using the Christian name as a defining sense. Like "We are a Christian nation" or something like that.

From the very first time the word was used "Christian" was used to define followers of CHRIST. History is not what I base my definition on, I base it straight out of the Bible. So, no, I do not agree that my kind of Christianity is softened-up, new age version. My definition was around long before the "modern defination" of anyone that is a church going, good person (or what ever the modern definition is).

Also, the statement "God-Fearing" Christian, does not mean the person is "afraid" of God. It is a "label" that has been used for a very long time, and in my experience, is based on a healthy respect of God and His majestic position in the universe.

However, I could be wrong. Perhaps there are people that are true followers of Jesus Christ that are "afraid" of God. And if that is so, then yes, they are still Christians, and my statement about being "true Christians" out of Love and not Fear could be interpreted as wrong. However, if you could see the hearts of followers of Jesus Christ, I believe that if there were any "fear" of God it would disappear when a Christian gets to know who Jesus is.


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## EXOLAX (May 22, 2005)

We are raising our children to be moral, ethical, virtuous, empathetic, intelligent, critical thinkers. I would be very saddened if we failed in these tasks. I imagine many of the posters here could make that same statement, the religious and atheist alike, and we wouldn't know which category they fell into. We have all come to our belief systems through experience, I feel we all would like to help give our children a headstart so they don't have to face so many of the same struggles and hardships to come to a conclusion. That said, it seems many here recognise that every one of us, our children included, will make their own decisions based on their own life experiences. We are here to give them the tools to help them along that road.

Without getting into a religious discussion I do find it most fascinating how varrying our "tools" are. For us personally it consists of critical thought, intelligent understanding of processes, accepting 100% responsibility for one's own actions, thoughts and feelings, having the ability to say "I don't know" and teaching them how to find the answers, and teaching them the wonders and power of the words "why" and "how".

Like I said, if we fail in these tasks we have set for ourselves, I will be dissapointed. Not in our children, but in ourselves. I will always be the one to ask "why" and "how", even to my own kids, no matter what they believe. I do hope they continue to do the same.


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## mtnsunshinemama (Sep 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *xaloxe*
We are raising our children to be moral, ethical, virtuous, empathetic, intelligent, critical thinkers. I would be very saddened if we failed in these tasks. I imagine many of the posters here could make that same statement, the religious and atheist alike, and we wouldn't know which category they fell into. We have all come to our belief systems through experience, I feel we all would like to help give our children a headstart so they don't have to face so many of the same struggles and hardships to come to a conclusion. That said, it seems many here recognise that every one of us, our children included, will make their own decisions based on their own life experiences. We are here to give them the tools to help them along that road.

Without getting into a religious discussion I do find it most fascinating how varrying our "tools" are. For us personally it consists of critical thought, intelligent understanding of processes, accepting 100% responsibility for one's own actions, thoughts and feelings, having the ability to say "I don't know" and teaching them how to find the answers, and teaching them the wonders and power of the words "why" and "how".

Like I said, if we fail in these tasks we have set for ourselves, I will be dissapointed. Not in our children, but in ourselves. I will always be the one to ask "why" and "how", even to my own kids, no matter what they believe. I do hope they continue to do the same.

How beautifully put, and I agree completely!

What a very interesting thread, even the part that has digressed into a defense of Christianity.

I hesitate to say I believe in God, because of what others think God is. My limited concept of God, or the Divine, is that it is something too big to wrap your mind (or Bible or Bhagavad Gita) around. But I can use that word if it is convenient sometimes.

I find a great spiritual connection and groundedness in many places, among friends, in nature and elsewhere and hope that my children will feel some of the same awe, connectedness and immensity that I have.

I have rebelled against Christianity as I was raised by catholics and mormons that were anything but Christ-like. We are raising our ds and his future siblings UU in order to foster the exploration of many paths on the way to finding his own.

No, I don't care if they believe in God or use god language, but like so many others here, I hope they will think critically and be accepting and broad-minded in the way they view the world!

Thich Nhat Hahn has said (in a sentiment that I love) " All religions are like fingers pointing to the moon, do not mistake the finger for the moon."

I hope my children fall in love with the beauty of "the moon" without being "fundamentally" attached to any finger that points to it.


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## tiffer23 (Nov 7, 2005)

Haven't read the other replies, so if this thread has gone all over the place, my response might be out of sync. Just answering the OP question.

Yes. I care if my son believes in God. I guess, for me, it comes down to "Do I want my son to go to heaven or hell?" Since I believe in both places, I obviously want my son in heaven!


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## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

of course we care.

we try to model Christ like living for our kids.

you can take little kids to church on sunday, and they might absorba little. but the truth is, that kids learn by doing and watching.

we hope that our kids are moral, intelligent humans who find Christ in their own heart.

We cannot force religion on our children without causing harm, in my opinion. But if it is just a normal part of their lives, i feel like they accept it in a much easier way.


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## tallulahma (Jun 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kamilla626*
This thread reminds me of a joke from the comedian Emo Philips, (might not have the exact words):

"When I was a kid I used to pray every single night for a new bicycle. Then later I realized that the Lord - in His wisdom - doesn't work that way....

So I stole one and asked him to forgive me!"


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## tallulahma (Jun 16, 2006)

i was not raised religous, however my mother believes in god, heaven and hell and all that goes with the bible. I rejected that as truth because throughout my life, when seeking answers to basic questions, I found that I did not "believe". I tried, but I simply do not.

I have attended numerous types of churches- protestent, episcopalian (sp?),
baptist, southern baptist, lutheran, I was even married in a catholic church for my first marriage.

But at the end of the day, always, it sounds like a fairytale.

It sounds like nonsense and I simply do not believe.

Reading things like "he is there holding his hands out" puzzles me. Do people honestly (being sincere) believe that god is like a person? With human characteristics? Did he create the solar systems as well? who created him? Assuming he is "like a man" how does he hear all christian prayers? Does he condemn all buddhists and taoists and jewish followers to hell? Because none of them accept jesus as their saviour. And if we are born sinners, they are too. So is your god their god in a different language? How do you know? Muslims claim their god is god and that jesus was a prophet but that mohammed was the newest prophet. What if that is true? Then if you are still following jesus you are not following the new word of God?

That is what I mean, I dont have these answers, I dont believe that they matter. I believe that I am truly a loving person. I also make a habit out of not lying to my children. If I do not believe, I cant expect my child to.
If they chose to believe? Then that is what they chose to help them get through lifes struggles. I get through it by trusting nature and instinct. To each their own.


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## Leatherette (Mar 4, 2003)

Quote:

Thich Nhat Hahn has said (in a sentiment that I love) " All religions are like fingers pointing to the moon, do not mistake the finger for the moon."

I hope my children fall in love with the beauty of "the moon" without being "fundamentally" attached to any finger that points to it.
Amazing. Thanks for sharing that.


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## SneakyPie (Jan 13, 2002)

I hope my child does not "believe in" a single omnipotent omniscient being, and I will actively discourage it. It seems like a big fiction that would waste a lot of precious time in his life. I have a lot of friends whose "beliefs" are similar to mine and who say they want their children to "be exposed to lots of religions" and "come to their own conclusions," but to me this issue is so important that I hope very much that he agrees with me, and I will try to influence his thinking in that direction.


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## Nankay (Jan 24, 2002)

:


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *inchijen*
Reading things like "he is there holding his hands out" puzzles me. Do people honestly (being sincere) believe that god is like a person? With human characteristics?

For me - No.

But I do believe that there is a divine energy - the spark of life if you will - that runs through every living thing. On quiet days, when I'm very in-touch and calm and centered, I can feel this energy. I can feel a connection to every living thing and every person. I believe that certain people at different times are able to feel this energy and group followers to them. Christ was such a person who could feel the energy at all times, as was Buddha and Abraham, the dalai Lama, whatever. I think it's my goal in life to get to a point where I can feel the energy, the divine connection at all times. I think lots of people do this already, but they don't necessarily start religions.

The rest of that stuff you mentioned simply metaphor for me. I attend church because at this point it gives me community to be with like-minded people and talk about what we believe. We don't have a concept of sin or heaven and hell, nor really an afterlife for the person we know as ourselves. One metaphor commonly used in our church is that while we are embodied, we are like a cup of water out of the ocean. But once we die, the body, or cup that was holding our soul or ourselves gets dumped back in the wide ocean.

I think of Jesus as one-way to get in touch with that energy. I actually looked at Buddhism and some earth-centered (pagan) circles, but in the end, I grew up in the Methodist church and I felt culturally connected to Jesus, so I've chosen a church (Unity) that follows Jesus.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Kidzaplenty wrote:

Quote:

The way I see it is like this. We are already condemned, by OUR own actions. Yes, by nature we are sinners. So without any help we are destined to die and go to hell (the payment of sin is death). But my God sent His only Son to us to lead us back to Him. MAN tortured and killed him. But because of His sacrific, His blood in ALLOWING man to kill him, He paid the debt for sin, which by it's very nature HAD to be in blood.
Gee. Well, I am a Christian too--I have accepted Jesus into my heart, I am studying the same Gospels you are, and I strive every day to live in a Christlike way--and I don't see it like that at all!!! We human beings by our basic nature are tempted to sin, so without any help we will tend to waste our lives in sin and selfishness. The "help" that leads us to a better way of living may come from following the way of life Jesus taught, from praying to and being guided by God Himself, or from other people who draw us into the (too-often-ignored) Holy Spirit that is within us all and is also a part of God. To me personally, all three of these forms of help are very important, and I believe that completely rejecting any one of them makes salvation impossible, but some people may use one of them more than the others. God has made many attempts throughout history to get people to turn away from sin and climb spiritually higher. One of these was sending Jesus, whose primary roles were (1) to teach us how to live and how to relate to God and to people (2) to live as a human being for 33 years so that he can advise God on what it's really like to be human and thus help Him reach us better. God's plan also included letting Jesus be betrayed and killed by human beings to show us how horrible are the consequences of going along with the crowd and failing to stand up for justice. Jesus did not allow himself to be killed because God wouldn't forgive our sins unless He got to drink some blood. He allowed it so that we would experience the horror of losing our greatest teacher and seeing him suffer because of our actions (and inactions) and so that this dramatic story would be told for generations to draw our attention to the things he taught while he was here. THAT is the way Jesus shows us the path to salvation. His dying was not a sacrifice (it's how he got back to heaven!); his sacrifice was living as a human, which for all its pleasures is a BIG step down from being divine in heaven!

I'm not saying that only people who believe exactly this are "true Christians." I'm saying I am a true Christian, and this is what I believe. It's different from Kidzaplenty, but hey, we all are one in Christ Jesus.


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca*
Kidzaplenty wrote:

Gee. Well, I am a Christian too--I have accepted Jesus into my heart, I am studying the same Gospels you are, and I strive every day to live in a Christlike way--and I don't see it like that at all!!! We human beings by our basic nature are tempted to sin, so without any help we will tend to waste our lives in sin and selfishness. The "help" that leads us to a better way of living may come from following the way of life Jesus taught, from praying to and being guided by God Himself, or from other people who draw us into the (too-often-ignored) Holy Spirit that is within us all and is also a part of God. To me personally, all three of these forms of help are very important, and I believe that completely rejecting any one of them makes salvation impossible, but some people may use one of them more than the others. God has made many attempts throughout history to get people to turn away from sin and climb spiritually higher. One of these was sending Jesus, whose primary roles were (1) to teach us how to live and how to relate to God and to people (2) to live as a human being for 33 years so that he can advise God on what it's really like to be human and thus help Him reach us better. God's plan also included letting Jesus be betrayed and killed by human beings to show us how horrible are the consequences of going along with the crowd and failing to stand up for justice. Jesus did not allow himself to be killed because God wouldn't forgive our sins unless He got to drink some blood. He allowed it so that we would experience the horror of losing our greatest teacher and seeing him suffer because of our actions (and inactions) and so that this dramatic story would be told for generations to draw our attention to the things he taught while he was here. THAT is the way Jesus shows us the path to salvation. His dying was not a sacrifice (it's how he got back to heaven!); his sacrifice was living as a human, which for all its pleasures is a BIG step down from being divine in heaven!

I'm not saying that only people who believe exactly this are "true Christians." I'm saying I am a true Christian, and this is what I believe. It's different from Kidzaplenty, but hey, we all are one in Christ Jesus.









I agree with all of this.


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## oregongirlie (Mar 14, 2006)

I hope my children accept the natural world for what it is; strive to learn about and understand reality through science and art; study, search, then reject organized religion completely; and connect with life and nature deeply enough to be satisfied with THIS world and THIS life.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oregongirlie*
and connect with life and nature deeply enough to be satisfied with THIS world and THIS life.

I really like this, whether one connects with an organized religion or not.


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## kyangel80 (Oct 5, 2005)

It is very important to me that my children believe in God. Having said that I am not the model Christian. I don't go to church regularly. I'm doing good to get ther once a month. But I feel that God is part of my heritage and that I must pass the flame to my children. Ultimately I know that it is up to my children to decide what they believe. This I understand. I guess it's important to me to let them know what I believe and share my knowledge and insight's with them. I want them to have a personal relationship with God b/c I find that life without that is never really complete for me. I am very into study and hope my children will search out the answers for themselves as well.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Quote:

Having said that I am not the model Christian. I don't go to church regularly.








Being a model Christian doesn't have much if anything to do with going to church. God does not require church attendance for salvation. Church is just a resource that some people find helpful in guiding their behavior the rest of the week.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca*







Being a model Christian doesn't have much if anything to do with going to church. God does not require church attendance for salvation. Church is just a resource that some people find helpful in guiding their behavior the rest of the week.









BUT, there are many, many people who do not agree. And they have no qualms about telling that to others.


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## josh&davesmomme (Feb 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty*
I guess I am in the minority here. But I do care whether my children believe in God.

I am a Christian. I want my children to be Christian. I totally believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He is the only way for us to get to Heaven. I also believe that it is my job to train my children up in this belief. I also teach them that the that although we love everyone, and that we are not better than anyone else, we are right in our beliefs. And it is our ministry to teach others of Jesus.

I teach my children that every moment of every day, every action that we take should bring glory to God. And that we are our happiest when we please Him.

So, yes, I do VERY much care whether or not they believe. I make no appologies or excuses. This is our belief and this is how we will raise our children to believe.









:


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## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oregongirlie*
I hope my children accept the natural world for what it is; strive to learn about and understand reality through science and art; study, search, then reject organized religion completely; and connect with life and nature deeply enough to be satisfied with THIS world and THIS life.









:


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trinasmom*
IMHO God gave us all a brain. When He told Eve in the garden of Eden not to eat the apple it was up to her to listen and do it. Instead like a defiant child she ate the apple. Therefore spiraling man into being born sinners. Yes, God knew how it was going to turn out, why then would he give us another chance? He sent His Son to die for us to give us the gift of Salvation. Would you do that for mankind? I sure wouldn't. God lets us decide whether to acept him or reject him. I am a Christian. Won't apologize for it. I don't walk in fear of God. I am in awe and wonder of Him. PPs stated they were once Christians. I wonder how you became an unChristian? I belive once you ask Jesus into your heart you are saved forever. There is no way to become unsaved., to my knowledge. I have always wondered if as some people believe there is no God, and you spent your whole life living as though there was, what do you have to lose? However, if you spent your whole life living as though there was no God and come to find out in the hereafter there is a God, I fear you'll have everything to lose.

I have a lot to lose by being a Christian, but, according to your thinking, it doesn't matter. I was a born again Christian 20 years ago, so I guess I'm covered either way--according to your thinking. Other Christians think otherwise, though, they see me burning in hell with Gandhi.


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## LadyMarmalade (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RubyWild*
I have a lot to lose by being a Christian, but, according to your thinking, it doesn't matter. I was a born again Christian 20 years ago, so I guess I'm covered either way--according to your thinking. Other Christians think otherwise, though, they see me burning in hell with Gandhi.

Lucky they're not the ones doing the judging!


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## LadyMarmalade (May 22, 2005)

Oh, to answer the question ... yes, I care.


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## jet1295mamajenn (Jul 21, 2006)

Yes, I care whether my children believe in God or not. My dh and I are raising them TO believe in God!


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## whateverdidiwants (Jan 2, 2003)

My views are the same as Ruby Wild and Boing82 and that crew.


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## lurable (Jul 23, 2006)

I definitely agree with pp's who talked about children going through a "religious exploration stage" that was me too! My parents (mom-agnostic/united and dad-athiest/now druid) really encouraged it and I am thankful to them for that. I was never baptized but I did experiance a plethora of religions and took what spoke to me and made up my own





















I call it: The religion according to Laura--and I am a devout follower! In all seriousness though, I will encourage exploration and while I will answer the best I can, I feel that spirituality is such an individual thing I will probably follow my parents lead and (when she is old enough) send her out to "find her own way" by experiance. Mind you, while religion may intertwine morals and spirituality I perfer to seperate them. I will always try to model and teach morality and ethics, but I believe that my dd needs to find her own spiritual path without my influence. Then, I will accept whatever she chooses...even if, like me, each religion was only a "brief stopping point".


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## WNB (Apr 29, 2006)

I want my child to grow up with a strong sense of fairness, understanding the importance of honesty, knowing that she has a purpose in this world, and knowing that she is loved deeply. All of those can be part of one's religious belief, and one's belief in a deity (or several), but that isn't the only way for those ends to be achieved. If a belief in God helps lead her to her enlightenment, I will be happy for her. And if she takes some other path to that enlightenment, I'll be just as happy.

I can't put on some show of religiosity for her, though. I can explain what I believe are the positive aspects of (some) organized religions -- mostly community-building and socialization, imo. I can also explain that there are lots of things we simply don't understand yet, and may not ever be able to understand without taking a leap of faith.


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## ~~Mama2B~~ (Mar 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty*
OK...

I have been contemplating asking this question, until now I resisted the urge. But I can't resist any longer. So here goes....

Why is it that so many of you would be disappointed or upset if your children became "Christian"? Why is the Christian God the one that you really don't want your children to worship? Why would it be different if they were to begin worshiping nature, or Buddah, Allah, Baal, or any other god?

This is kind of a different perspective on it...

DH and I were both raised Christian, but we have since converted to the Messianic movement. Messianics believe in the Bible, God and Yeshua (Jesus) but we don't hold to Christian doctine or theology. Our worship style is very Jewish in look and feel. No offense meant here, but for our family converting to Christianity would be like taking a step back in many regards. We've spent so much time and taken so much effort to purge ourselves of Christian thinking that it would break my heart if my children fell right back into that.

DH and I believe that faith cannot simply be felt or believed- it must be acted. We don't believe a person isn't "saved" by saying some magical words, but but understanding who God is, who Yeshua is and by trying to live in a way that honors God (Torah observance, loving other people, etc).

I have many Christian friends and I do not have a problem with Christians at all! However, because Christianity has compromised its fundamental beliefs and no longer teaches or practices a Torah lifestyle, we could not condone our children converting to Christianity.

I would like to see that by our modeling the godly life, taking pleasure in following Torah and creating memories to our holidays and holy days (Passover, Hanukkah, Purim, etc) they will want to stay within our religious beliefs. We plan to read the Bible to our children and get involved with other Messianic families, a congregation, whatever to build that bond.

Kristi


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## PrettyBird (Jun 19, 2005)

No I don't care. What she believes is NOT my decision to make. When she asks me questions I will tell her what I believe and what different people believe and tell her it is her decision to explore and make. I think it is just as wrong to push a child into atheism as it is to push them into a religion. It is really the same kind of thing, either way you are telling them what to believe.

I do hope that she doesn't become so involved in a religion that she allows other people to think for her and speak for her. This goes for any religion.


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## ~~Mama2B~~ (Mar 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PrettyBird*
No I don't care. What she believes is NOT my decision to make. When she asks me questions I will tell her what I believe and what different people believe and tell her it is her decision to explore and make. I think it is just as wrong to push a child into atheism as it is to push them into a religion. It is really the same kind of thing, either way you are telling them what to believe.

I do hope that she doesn't become so involved in a religion that she allows other people to think for her and speak for her. This goes for any religion.

I have to disagree.

I'm not a Christian and I don't believe we have to "ask Jesus in our hearts" in order to "be saved." Even if I did, I have no way of forcing anyone to believe anything. However, If I believe there is an absolute truth and there are right and wrong ways to live, and that we will be rewarded and or punished for our deeds, I feel I should definately encourage good behavior. To me, it's like saying I won't encourage my child to eat vegetables because that is her choice to make when she's older. Or I won't encourage my child to learn to read because that is her choice to make when she's older.

If you don't believe in absolute truth or stuff like that, then your way makes sense, but telling someone who believes our actions will be judged in the end not to encourage their children to make appropriate choices accordingly is not really possible.

I guess what I'm saying is that our individual understandings of absolute truth must be the same if we are even going to be able to discuss this kind of topic logically. If our foundations are different, it isn't possible for either side to understand how the other can think the way they do. Yk?

Kristi


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## woobysma (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy*
I haven't finished this entire thread yet, but I would be disappointed if my children became Christians because most Christianity is, by it's very nature, exclusionary. It strikes me as exceedingly arrogant to say "My way is the one and only way! Nobody can relate to their spirituality unless they do it this way!" Come now; we don't all wear the same size shoes. We don't all have the same length gait. We can't all relate to the physical world in exactly the same way, so how could we possibly relate to the spiritual world in exactly the same way? It just doesn't make sense to me.

There are Christians who are far more open-minded than this, but the overwhelming majority are not. They adhere to doctrines which expressly state that things must be done this way or they may as well not be done at all. I can't accept that, and I'd be extremely disappointed (perhaps even despondant) if my children could.

This sums up my feelings on Christianity pretty well (and more gently than I would have phrased it







). I honestly see the modern Christian religion to be the near antithesis of everything Jesus stood for, but maybe it's that the conservative Christians are just yelling so loud that I can't hear the rest of them.







It feels like a very hateful religion to me, personally, which makes me more than a bit angry because I think the actual teachings and actions of Jesus were really cool. I can see us hanging out and having some really awesome conversations







I don't think that about many Christians

I hope my boys feel that there is *something* bigger than themselves. I hope they have a sense that there is *something* that unifies everything, from humanity to nature to the universe. I hope they develop a spiritual, mystical awareness.

I think those beliefs are what create thoughtful, loving & creative people.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

I was raised by very devout catholic parents. I attended catholic school back in the days when there was still an abundance of nuns. I knew from the time I was 7 years old that I did not believe in the catholic church and that I would never be catholic, at that point largely because woman can't be priests. My parents were of the "you must attend" variety, and forced their religion down my throat until I was old enough to move out. I loathed their approach to religion.

I believe strongly that everyone walks their own spiritual path. I'm theologically Quaker, but for logistical reasons, we attend a UU church.

I don't care whether or not my kids believe in God. They have their own decisions to make. I would be hurt if they end up in a religion that treats some people as less than others, based on gender, race, sexual orientation, etc.


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## woobysma (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EFmom*
I would be hurt if they end up in a religion that treats some people as less than others, based on gender, race, sexual orientation, etc.

I realize that my children will and should make there own decisions, but I, personally, would see this as a failure on my part as a parent. I hope that I succeed in teaching my children love, compassion and fairness. If they find a religion that holds up those ideals in speach *AND PRACTICE*, then I'd be OK with that.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EFmom*
I was raised by very devout catholic parents. I attended catholic school back in the days when there was still an abundance of nuns. I knew from the time I was 7 years old that I did not believe in the catholic church and that I would never be catholic, at that point largely because woman can't be priests. My parents were of the "you must attend" variety, and forced their religion down my throat until I was old enough to move out. I loathed their approach to religion.

I believe strongly that everyone walks their own spiritual path. I'm theologically Quaker, but for logistical reasons, we attend a UU church.

I don't care whether or not my kids believe in God. They have their own decisions to make. I would be hurt if they end up in a religion that treats some people as less than others, based on gender, race, sexual orientation, etc.

I have to get out the door in a minute, but your post reminded me that there was a thread awhile ago with a Q&A and returned what religion you were most likely to be compatible with. I'll try to remember to find that and bump it up.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kidzaplenty*
OK...

I have been contemplating asking this question, until now I resisted the urge. But I can't resist any longer. So here goes....

Why is it that so many of you would be disappointed or upset if your children became "Christian"? Why is the Christian God the one that you really don't want your children to worship? Why would it be different if they were to begin worshiping nature, or Buddah, Allah, Baal, or any other god?

Buddha was not a god. He was "awake." I would not be disappointed if my Dd became a buddhist. I would be disappointed if she became a Christian because I was once one myself and am now repelled by it. It would just be hard for me to deal with it, but I would. It's not my choice, but just like a devout Christian guides her child to that belief system, I would guide her away from it. Just like most Christians would be disappointed if their child denied Christ and lived a life of "sin," I would be disappointed if she chose a Christian life or anything particularly religious. I'm don't think there's a way for me to be more specific without being insulting, which I don't want to do. I don't want to insult others, I just wanted to answer the question.


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## woobysma (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
You know, as an extremely leftist, crunchy, *jesus was a hippy* Christian --- I find it is hard to fit in anywhere sometimes







I certainly would NOT fit in with the conservative/fundie/republican crowd to ANY degree (they would probably physically harm me).... but when I tell *crunchy* people I am Christian, I see them slowly backing away, terrified looks in their eyes before I explain myself.

I am A Christian who chooses Jesus as *MY* personal savior, not yours, not anyone else's -- that is for them to decide or not. I try to walk with love, I don't care what you do in your bedroom or who you want to marry. I recognize every woman's body as her own and will stand up for her right of choice over matters involving her body. I don't care who gets married as long as it is two consenting adults. I ABSOLUTELY DETEST PRESIDENT BUSH and probably every.single.one. of his beliefs and policies....

...but, I am still a Christian. I reject most *organized* religion because I think that spirituality is such a personal and unique thing and my relationship with God (as I believe God to be) is unlike yours, or his, or hers, or anyone elses.

I also subscribe to the belief that *all paths lead to God* in the sense that if one is pure of heart and devoted to _their_ God as they believe God to be, even if God is nature, or whoever, then they are walking with God.

I study the Buddhism philosophy as well.

The point of this whole novel is that I don't care if my daughter believes in *my* God or not -- but I do think faith is really important --- I will keep our home and minds open to any path which walks in love, and believes in treating everyone as you/they wish to be treated. Any path which is based in kindness and in respect for self and for others and their choices. My personal belief and choice as Jesus as my savior is just that, a personal belief.

....I would though, go mental if she became a conservative republican







You're on your own there kiddo.

This is a really beautiful post, CC









I feel the same way (except I don't self identify as Christian, but I respect your position on that one).

but........................ I think you might be Hindu


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Was that quiz perhaps the one at Beliefnet? This quiz is actually how we discovered that Mike is a Liberal Quaker; he was skeptical at first, until he read some literature from our local Meetinghouse. He said, "If I didn't know that these people had been around for more than 300 years, I'd be sure that they were reading my mind!"


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy*
Was that quiz perhaps the one at Beliefnet? This quiz is actually how we discovered that Mike is a Liberal Quaker; he was skeptical at first, until he read some literature from our local Meetinghouse. He said, "If I didn't know that these people had been around for more than 300 years, I'd be sure that they were reading my mind!"









Yep, that's it!


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## Attached Mama (Dec 4, 2005)

yes, it's very important to dh and i that our dd and any future children believe in God/Jesus. We follow Jesus message of Love as set out in the Bible and we follow it because we believe it's the truth. This does not mean we don't respect other religions or even that we don't see good in them. We just don't believe they are the way to heaven.

I would not hate or reject my DD if she chose otherwise, but I would be heartbroken.


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## Attached Mama (Dec 4, 2005)

i am a Christian but i can answer your question kidzaplenty about why so many would be disappointed if their kids became christians.

the bible says they will know we are Chrisitans by our love for one another - but the Christian world is instead know by our sectarianism with different denominations and infighting and splits etc

we are supposed to preach the "gospel" which dictionary definition is "good news" but instead we condemn everyone who isn't like us.

we picket, condemn, scorn, won't talk to or associate with certain people, don't take up our issues in the voting booth but in a public way where it is offensive to others.

we (I am using "we" in a very generic sense and certainly this does not apply to MDC parents) spank our children, bend their wills to ours and let them cry it out so they learn who is boss and what the rules are. we feed them and do everything on a strict schedule with no regard to their needs so we are not inconvenienced and we call this "raising kids God's way"

We have schools that punish children for simple infractions like their skirt being an inch too short or their hair being an inch too long and we tell them they can't wear this or that and can't listen to or see this or that and make all sorts of hypocritical rules that are concerned with outward appearances rather than the heart.

We tell our teens and young people that they cannot date or can't date without prior permission from someone or can't date before age 18 and we shun them and think they are "backslidden" a heathen, if htey do otherwise even if it's ok with their parents. Then we tell them they can't dance at their wedding reception. Basically we have churches that abuse authority.

Need I go on?? Unfortunately IMHO there are many other spiritual paths out there whose followers are more closely following Jesus and the Bible by living peacably and caring for others and living in love and who are more "christian" than many professed christians except for their lack of belief in Christ as Saviour.

Since the above is the experience of many Christians and many "former' Christians, I can see why they don't want to be Christians. I personally don't call myself a Christian. Am I a follower of Christ? Yes!! But I hope I am not anything like what our society considers a stereotypical Chrisitan to be. You will notice in my first post on this thread that I identified myself as a follower of Jesus message of love in the Bible.

FWIW on behalf of Christianity I apologize for all of the lack of love and compassion and ability to disagree peacably that comes out of christians and the church.


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## Imogen (Jul 25, 2006)

I've entered very late into this thread, but for me, I've always felt that I don't have any right to 'impose' or 'raise' my son to accept a particular religious/spiritual path. I would in all honesty consider this a violation of his rights. Ultimately I want him to embrace his own autonomy. As his parent, I will hopefully equip him with the tools to explore religion/spirituality independently from my influence. When I refer to my influence, I mean not dictating that 'this is right, no that is wrong'.

For me personally, organised religion has never played a fundamental role in my life. If I have encountered spirituality, it has been via my own choice to explore it. As a female, from my own research I can honestly say that I see no place for myself within organized religion that wouldn't involve sacrificing my own identity in some way.

I must add though, that I will raise my son to understand the importance of living an ethical, compassionate existence. But I do not believe that I need organised religion in order for him to adopt this ethical/compassionate existence. Ultimately, it *is* a personal choice.


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## Imogen (Jul 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Attached Mama*
FWIW on behalf of Christianity I apologize for all of the lack of love and compassion and ability to disagree peacably that comes out of christians and the church.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Wow, Attached Mama-- Would you mind if I forwarded that to my inlaws?


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## Attached Mama (Dec 4, 2005)

i don't have any control over whether you forward my post do i?







but am curious why you want to...


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## Attached Mama (Dec 4, 2005)

must add that all those things i wrote about are NOT in the bible - please add that to whatever you forward.


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## sphinxie (Feb 28, 2006)

The short answer is that I don't care if my (hypothetical) kids believe in God.

But I do feel strongly that I don't want them to be either athiests, theists, agnostics, or really anything _by default_. Without independant thought and understanding and exploration. I would try to buffer them from any influence of that kind, of people and groups that say explicitly or implicitly "_Of course_ you should believe X, not Y." I would encourage exploration.

I would want there to be some aspect of religious activity and ceremony involving the whole family, in a flexible way that isn't so much about belief per se.

I am also planning on seeking some practices that I think would be useful for a kid's spiritual development. Like we might go to Quaker meetings sometimes, and also spend some time in nature in a quiet listening way.

And I'd hope to foster spiritual community whenever possible.

Sometimes I think I should start doing this stuff now!


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## EXOLAX (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sphinxie*
But I do feel strongly that I don't want them to be either athiests, theists, agnostics, or really anything _by default_. Without independant thought and understanding and exploration. I would try to buffer them from any influence of that kind, of people and groups that say explicitly or implicitly "_Of course_ you should believe X, not Y." I would encourage exploration.

I know a number of atheists, agnostics, humanists etc. (with and w/o children) and none of them really speak of their belief system with just anyone. Most keep it to themselves and I have never met one who has told anyone they should believe X and not Y. My personal experience has been that people who have come to this kind of understanding have done it through much processing and exploration. They are logical, critical thinkers and telling someone to believe or not believe something goes against their core values.

I find it ironic though that I would presume the majority of them would feel the same way about people in organised religions as you do about them. Preaching and trying to convert and a black and white view of the world seem to me to be a part of some organised religions and is not in the mindset of those I know who do not have religion in their lives.

There really are so few atheists or agnosits in the U.S. statistically. I can't imagine anyone of them telling a child that isn't their own "There is no God". But I see the reverse all the time. (From God, to Jesus, to Santa Clause.)

I would venture to say though that none of us want anyone else's religious beliefs (or lack thereof) pushed on our children.

edited to make more logical sense...


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Attached Mama*
i don't have any control over whether you forward my post do i?







but am curious why you want to...

Because they have a really hard time understanding why I'm so offended by their particular flavor of Christianity, and why the idea of them teaching my children anything about religion *terrifies* me.


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## sphinxie (Feb 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *xaloxe*
I find it ironic though that I would presume the majority of them would feel the same way about people in organised religions as you do about them. Preaching and trying to convert and a black and white view of the world seem to me to be a part of some organised religions and is not in the mindset of those I know who do not have religion in their lives.

There really are so few atheists, agnosits, theists in the U.S. statistically. I can't imagine anyone of them telling a child that isn't their own "There is no God". But I see the reverse all the time. (From God, to Jesus, to Santa Clause.)

Heheh, Xaloxe, that's not quite my situation! I think you will understand what I wrote a lot better if you keep in mind that when I say "atheists, agnostics, and theists" I am referring to pretty much everybody... a theist is someone who believes in God or gods.

Regardless of US statistics, in my social groups there aren't clear lines between religious and areligious people. And there are lots of atheists and agnostics, and theists too. As common as evangelists may be there are none in the social groups I live in, so that high level of pressure is just not a factor.

But anyway, I was popping back in here to add that on the other hand, some people's personalities simply aren't geared for that sort of exploration, so I could also be okay with that too if it was for intrinsic reasons.

ETA: there are some other details that would be interesting to discuss but I think they would be irrelevant to the parenting aspect of this discussion.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Great post, Attached Mama!









Xaloxe wrote, regarding atheists and agnostics:

Quote:

My personal experience has been that people who have come to this kind of understanding have done it through much processing and exploration. They are logical, critical thinkers and telling someone to believe or not believe something goes against their core values.
I almost agree with you, except for the "not believe" part. I agree that people who don't believe in God are opposed to anyone, including themselves, telling anyone what to believe. But I know several atheists who are quite happy to tell everyone that they SHOULD NOT believe in God. In fact, they feel compelled to shout down anyone who is trying to speak about h faith and to criticize that person as stupid, immature, guided by mushy feelings rather than correct thinking, illogical, and/or brainwashed. Certainly, not all the atheists I know are like this. But some are. Methinks they doth protest too much and are secretly afraid that the believers might be right.







:


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## Nankay (Jan 24, 2002)

Methinks they doth protest too much and are secretly afraid that the believers might be right. "

Sheesh, using that logic I could say every person who has approached me trying to convert me is "protesting too much" and is secretly thinking the non believers are right.







:


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Of course I care I want my kids with me in heaven.


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nankay*
Methinks they doth protest too much and are secretly afraid that the believers might be right. "

Sheesh, using that logic I could say every person who has approached me trying to convert me is "protesting too much" much and is secretly thinking the non believers are right.







:

Basically what it comes down to, time and again, is that many believers don't believe in atheists.


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca*
Certainly, not all the atheists I know are like this. But some are. Methinks they doth protest too much and are secretly afraid that the believers might be right.







:

They are probably strong atheists/rationalists who can't grok the cognitive dissonance that believers practice on a daily basis. It can be very frustrating. I get frustrated with Christians in that way sometime, but my experience with my parents shoving religion down my throat from day one has made me very hands off in terms of what others believe. Just like you will find Christians who don't talk about their religion to others, you will find atheists who want to convert everybody. That's just life.


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## EXOLAX (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sphinxie*
Heheh, Xaloxe, that's not quite my situation! I think you will understand what I wrote a lot better if you keep in mind that when I say "atheists, agnostics, and theists" I am referring to pretty much everybody... a theist is someone who believes in God or gods.











Ok, ok... I know what a theist is, yet somehow I managed to read over it in your post and still use it in mine! It all makes much more sense to me now that you have so clearly pointed out my flawed interpretation.

Note to self: there's a reason you wake up an hour before the kids, because it takes you that long to wake up. Don't reply to posts until you've achieved that goal. I've learned a valuable lesson today.







Oh, and re-read them, for once.

I will still stand by my post, excluding the addition of theist.


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## EXOLAX (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca*
I almost agree with you, except for the "not believe" part. I agree that people who don't believe in God are opposed to anyone, including themselves, telling anyone what to believe. But I know several atheists who are quite happy to tell everyone that they SHOULD NOT believe in God. In fact, they feel compelled to shout down anyone who is trying to speak about h faith and to criticize that person as stupid, immature, guided by mushy feelings rather than correct thinking, illogical, and/or brainwashed. Certainly, not all the atheists I know are like this. But some are. Methinks they doth protest too much and are secretly afraid that the believers might be right.







:

It's an intersting thought, and as Nankay pointed out, are those who are most vocal and feel qualified to adauciously tell someone else what to or not to believe the most insecure in their belief system? It could very well be insecurity, but for some I know it can also be a struggle for acceptance and understanding in a society so inundated with symbols and thoughts from a select few religions.

Trying to take this back to the topic at hand... it does bother me that at certain times of the year it seems a large number of USAmericans make assumptions that everyone and their children hold the same religious views as they do. I have vivid memories of being wished specific holiday greetings and feeling very alienated as a child and youth because we didn't celebrate theirs.

Again, I want to raise confident, intelligent, kind, creative, empathetic, critical thinkers. They will find their own path and hopefully take responsibility for themselves and their own actions. If they can do this, with or without religion, it doesn't matter to me if in the end I've accomplished my goal.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Nankay wrote:

Quote:

Sheesh, using that logic I could say every person who has approached me trying to convert me is "protesting too much" and is secretly thinking the non believers are right.
Oh, absolutely! I grew up in an area with lots of fundamentalist Christians, and not only were they zealous about wanting to convert everyone, they were determined to prevent anyone from explaining other beliefs (even if those were not the speaker's own beliefs, for example when we learned about Islam in order to understand medieval history) because they were terrified that if their children heard about other beliefs, they would adopt those beliefs. Their faith is in fact so weak that it is threatened by the mere knowledge that anyone believes anything else!

Lisac77 wrote:

Quote:

They are probably strong atheists/rationalists who can't grok the cognitive dissonance that believers practice on a daily basis.
Cognitive dissonance is a conflict between one's actions and one's beliefs. I can understand pointing that out to a person: "You say you believe nonmarital sex is wrong, yet you keep doing it!" The kind of atheist harangue I'm talking about is when someone responds to a person who mentions belonging to a church by saying, "You go to CHURCH?!







I thought you were smart! What, do you believe there's a big sky-monkey controlling everything you do?!" That is a direct quote. These are not people who are interested in finding out my actual beliefs and practices; they stereotype all people who believe in God as dimwits and make no distinctions among us.

But like I said, most of the atheists I know are not like that. If EnviroBaby grows up to be an atheist, I'll be okay with it as long as he's not a bigoted and rude atheist. I don't want him to be bigoted or rude no matter what belief system he adopts.

Edited to add: I think the above atheist harangue actually reflects the ATHEIST's cognitive dissonance: She respected me and considered me intelligent (action) but she believes that Christians are stupid and unpleasant (belief), so now that she knows I am a Christian she has to change her actions (disrespect me) to bring them into line with her beliefs. I do understand that many atheists think belief in God requires cognitive dissonance because science "disproves" the possibility of God, but those who bother to ask me how I deal with that question will learn that I don't, in fact, live in a state of cognitive dissonance about it: I believe that the laws of science were written by God, who is not a physical entity, so not only is there no scientific finding that could prove to me that there is no God, but the continual revealing of the wonders of the universe continually increases my amazement at God's design.


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## monkeys4mama (Apr 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bright*
What would happen for you if someday one of your children doesn't believe what you believe?

Answering the question you posed to Kidzaplenty... It would be very heartbreaking and sad for me. I want my children to know the joy and peace of salvation and having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I'm not the absolutely literal type who believes that there is an exact, precise set of doctrinal facts and musts that someone has to either accept or not. But I want very much for my children to have faith. Ultimately it is their choice, of course. All people must make that decision for themselves. And you cannot force it or require it. Such is the nature of faith. But, as to whether I care, of course I do. A lot!

Perhaps it would be easier for the non-religious folks to understand it by considering a parallel from their own beliefs. Think of something that is important to you? Might it be environmentalism? Human rights? Something that is central to the core of who you are and that you feel is vital for you to pass on to your children. Then ask how you would feel if your child grew up and became head of a company that was destroying the environment or if s/he grew up to participate in a racist group or one that fought against gay rights. Would you care? Of course.

All of us do have deeply held beliefs and ideals about right and wrong. We try to share them with our children and raise them accordingly. I don't think anyone here would say that they want their kids to grow up and decide for themselves whether or not to be racists, and whatever they decide is OK with them... (Said with tongue planted in cheek, but to illustrate a point.)

Religious faith is a vital thing. Teaching our children and sharing our faith as they grow is as important as anything we teach them and raise them to be. I'd venture to say it's the most important thing, since it's the only one we believe to be eternal.


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## Nankay (Jan 24, 2002)

Monkeys4mama you seem to be equating my atheism with someone bent on destroying something. If I am uber-enviromentalist and my dd works for an oil company drilling in Yellowstone, she is trying to destroy what I am trying to protect. If I believe in god, but dd doesn't , what is she destroying exactly? How is she working directly against what I believe ?


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkeys4mama*
...
Religious faith is a vital thing. Teaching our children and sharing our faith as they grow is as important as anything we teach them and raise them to be. I'd venture to say it's the most important thing, since it's the only one we believe to be eternal.

*wonders why I'm not dead, then*


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkeys4mama*
Religious faith is a vital thing. Teaching our children and sharing our faith as they grow is as important as anything we teach them and raise them to be. I'd venture to say it's the most important thing, since it's the only one we believe to be eternal.

Interesting post. I actually agree with you, from a slightly different perspective.

It is vital to me and my dh that our children require a certain level of evidence from any authority which purports to represent truth. This authority could be the government, a teacher, a community leader or a religious figure. I do not want my children to believe something *just because*. I want them to live a thoughtful life, meaning they have questioned and thought and researched about their beliefs - be they religous, scientific, ethics, etc.

My major issue with religion as a concept is that religion often claims exemption from standards of evidence we regularly apply to every other facet of our lives. Religions often claim truth, but then offer only faith as proof - and then claim that faith itself without proof is the core of truth(!).

I have no issue and in fact embrace the times when religious authorities discuss the more esoteric/abstract philosophical issues surrounding human existence. What I take issue with are those individuals who claim that their religion has facts and figures to back up the religious philosophy and those facts are not supported by peer reviewed evidence based scientific approaches.

THis issue, for me, is CORE to how we think, make judgements on who to believe and trust, and frankly, live our lives. It is how we actually think (vs what we actually think). So in fact, it is an important lesson I want my children to learn - and would be very very disappointed if they didn't learn it.

Siobhan


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## Nankay (Jan 24, 2002)

Siobhan,
You rock!


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca*
I do understand that many atheists think belief in God requires cognitive dissonance because science "disproves" the possibility of God,

I agree with the rest of your post about cognative dissonance. I did want to say that, to me, atheism isn't about proving God doesn't exist. Atheism is the statement that there is no evidence of a God -i.e. the universe, as we understand it at this moment, does not require a God in order for it to be the way it is.

We have an imperfect understanding of the universe. If someone were to find replicable, verifiable, scientifically measurable evidence for a deity, I fully trust that scientists, even "devout atheists", would fall over themselves to get that information published - heck it would lead to a Nobel Prize!!!

The scientific method is imperfect as a way of verifying what we know to be objectively true - BUT it is the best we have right now. The major flaw isn't the method, but rather the individuals implementing the method.

For me, the statement that "there is no evidence for a God" requires me, to be intellectually honest, to behave as though there isn't one. After all, if there is no evidence, why should I believe that there is?

Of course, your definitions of evidence may vary. Mine are strictly scientific because that is what I trust. I do not trust other authorities because I do not believe them to be objective. I do not believe what feels right since, frankly, human perspective (especially my own) has been shown to be plenty flawed when actually investigated.

Your mileage may vary.

Siobhan


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## monkeys4mama (Apr 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca*
Nankay wrote: they were determined to prevent anyone from explaining other beliefs (even if those were not the speaker's own beliefs, for example when we learned about Islam in order to understand medieval history) because they were terrified that if their children heard about other beliefs, they would adopt those beliefs. Their faith is in fact so weak that it is threatened by the mere knowledge that anyone believes anything else!

.

Why would this mean that the person's faith is weak? If they don't want their children taught other beliefs it seems to me that it it simply because it is extremely important to them that their children not be led away from the belief system they are being brought up in. It's no reflection at all on the amount of faith they have. Instead it reflects how strongly they feel about raising their children in their faith. If a person believes that the only way to get to Heaven is through faith in their God, then it would be of the utmost importance for them to ensure that their children learn the way to Heaven.

Note, this is not an argument for or against any religion (although I am a Christian myself). I just had to comment on the notion that not wanting to teach your kids about other religions means you're lacking faith.


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## monkeys4mama (Apr 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boingo82*
*wonders why I'm not dead, then*

Huh? That doesn't make any sense at all.

I said that to me, the faith I share with my children is the only thing that I believe is eternal. What does that have to do with you being alive or dead???


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkeys4mama*
Huh? That doesn't make any sense at all.

I said that to me, the faith I share with my children is the only thing that I believe is eternal. What does that have to do with you being alive or dead???










Vital means necessary for life.


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## Nankay (Jan 24, 2002)

Monkeys4mama,

I didn't write that, but I DO agree with it.
If a person's belief/faith can be swayed by merely learning about another set of beliefs, how strong was that belief to begin with? It seems like not wanting your child to learn of other beliefs, you are scared they might THINK (important word here)..that something else makes more sense to them.


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## monkeys4mama (Apr 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nankay*
Monkeys4mama you seem to be equating my atheism with someone bent on destroying something. If I am uber-enviromentalist and my dd works for an oil company drilling in Yellowstone, she is trying to destroy what I am trying to protect. If I believe in god, but dd doesn't , what is she destroying exactly? How is she working directly against what I believe ?

Nope. I'm not equating atheism with trying to destroy something. I'm equating my faith (something I feel very strongly and passionately about) with your enviromentalism (something you feel very strongly and passionately about). Seeking an example of how we all want to pass on to our children those beliefs and values which we hold most dear.


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## Nankay (Jan 24, 2002)

Perhaps you used poor examples then as you used VALUE X with dc adopting VALUE Y which would work to destroy said VALUE X

IE: enviromentalist vs. head of company destroying environment

human rights vs. person working against gay rights

I can feel passionate about my atheism, but if dd decides to believe in a god , her belief (HOPEFULLY) would not work to destroy my own. Likewise, if i were a Christian, my childs atheism would not work to destroy Christianity.


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## monkeys4mama (Apr 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boingo82*
Vital means necessary for life.

Not necessarily. There are several definitions of "vital", including "of the utmost importance".

The original post asked for our opinions. This is mine. Religious faith is a vital part of my life and something I very much want to pass on to my children.

Why do people have such a problem with me wanting to share this with my kids? It's not like I've come after you, your beliefs or your children. Why the snarky comments at all, when I simply wrote a sincere response to the question. Saying stuff like "wonders why I'm not dead yet" is a cut on *my* faith. I have not criticized your beliefs. Actually, I've tried to be respectful of them.


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## monkeys4mama (Apr 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nankay*
I can feel passionate about my atheism, but if dd decides to believe in a god , her belief (HOPEFULLY) would not work to destroy my own. Likewise, if i were a Christian, my childs atheism would not work to destroy Christianity.

But if you look around online and even throughout MDC, you see plenty of evidence of atheists working against religion. Arguing against it. Attempting to limit its influence. Criticizing it. Etc.


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## Nankay (Jan 24, 2002)

Wow..you consider arguing a philosophical question as trying to detroy it? Am I trying to limit its influence? You bet...I think religion is unhealthy and there's a little thing called separation of church and state. Am I trying to destroy it? Nope. Believe whatever floats your boat, just keep it away from me thank you very much.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

What I would, as an atheist, like to "destroy" it people pushing their religion on me left, right, and center. And I live in a much less religious area than some.

I hear Christians whining on the radio that Christians are being persecuted. Try being an out of the closet atheist. Try spending money without the governments stamp of approval of superstitious belief in a god. I would not mind so much if people were Christians if they didn't feel such a need to push it on everyone else, as if it's a superior way of thinking. I know that many Christians are quiet about it, but others believe it's their duty to save us from hell. That's just arrogance with a sugar-coating of true concern. Basically, many Christians (myself included when I was a devout Christian for 20 years) just can't see their own biases anymore than they think we atheists cannot see our own.

I just wish we could all quietly believe what we believe and leave others alone.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nankay*
Wow..you consider arguing a philosophical question as trying to detroy it? Am I trying to limit its influence? You bet...I think religion is unhealthy and there's a little thing called separation of church and state. Am I trying to destroy it? Nope. Believe whatever floats your boat, just keep it away from me thank you very much.









These are not the words I probably would have chosen, but I do agree with this for the most part, -minus the part about all religion being unhealthy. I think it can be though.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RubyWild*
I just wish we could all quietly believe what we believe and leave others alone.









What is so wrong about this? I can't understand why this cannot be.


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## monkeys4mama (Apr 25, 2006)

I think this discussion is becoming sidetracked too far from its orginal intent.

You're all entitled to your opinions. And to reiterate my reply to the OP: yes, it's important to me to raise my children to have faith in God.









Stepping out of this one now and unsubbing. I'm not here to try to argue religion (against your lack of it or my belief in it). I'll leave that to someone else b/c it's a beautiful day and I'm about to go enjoy it.









Unsubbing.


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkeys4mama*
But if you look around online and even throughout MDC, you see plenty of evidence of atheists working against religion. Arguing against it. Attempting to limit its influence. Criticizing it. Etc.

What on earth could be wrong with attempting to limit its influence?


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkeys4mama*
Not necessarily. There are several definitions of "vital", including "of the utmost importance".

The original post asked for our opinions. This is mine. Religious faith is a vital part of my life and something I very much want to pass on to my children.

Why do people have such a problem with me wanting to share this with my kids? It's not like I've come after you, your beliefs or your children. Why the snarky comments at all, when I simply wrote a sincere response to the question. Saying stuff like "wonders why I'm not dead yet" is a cut on *my* faith. I have not criticized your beliefs. Actually, I've tried to be respectful of them.









You did not put the "I believe" qualifier on your statements. You stated flat out that faith is the most important thing that *we* can teach our children. The implication is that some of us are neglecting our parental duties by failing to instruct our kids in this *vital* matter.
I know you're not trying to be offensive. But it sure can come across that way if you step into a non-christian viewpoint.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I haven't read the replies. But a friend has this book "What is God?". It is beautiful, inspirational and non-"partisan". It references all the constructs of "God" as Love and Life. I highly recommend it even for very young children, above age 3+.

http://www.amazon.fr/What-Is-God-Eta.../dp/0920668887

Pat


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

I believe in God myself but very much support my children's right not to and would never try to force my beliefs on them. Something I think is funny is that my son always reminds us to "say the blessing" before we eat a meal, even though we have never done this in our house before he came up with it. He has always been a very spiritual child since he was old enough to speak, even without any pressure/teaching from us about religion, God, etc. Just his personality, I guess.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*







What is so wrong about this? I can't understand why this cannot be.

Because many Christians believe that this in the "end of days" and "the rapture is near" and it's their duty to save everyone who believes differently. This is what was preached in my church, and just like a former smoker who hates smoking, I'm a former Christian who hates/rejects preaching.


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## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

Just jumping in to give my answer to the OP. I'm an atheist so it's obviously not important to me for my son to believe in a god/goddess. However, I wouldn't have any objections if he did. I'm not anti-religion, I just don't have one.


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## aywilkes (Sep 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RubyWild*
Because many Christians believe that this in the "end of days" and "the rapture is near" and it's their duty to save everyone who believes differently. This is what was preached in my church, and just like a former smoker who hates smoking, I'm a former Christian who hates/rejects preaching.

I think it is important for people to DIALOGUE and SHARE!!! I grew up practicing Nichiren's Buddhism and now attend a Unity Church. I too have experienced passionate Christians telling me how I'm going to hell and our whole Baptist family praying for us every Sunday. It pisses my mom off! She just can't for the life of her deal with Christians and their WAy of testifying. however, becuase I attended a church where people get "saved" and recognize the common threads in many religions my belief is that there is more than one way to get to God/the Universe/your Higher Self whatever and nobody has a monopoly on it. I think our country would be alot better if people stopped trying to PUSH their beliefs about God or the absence of God on others and shared their point of view and tried understanding others' points of view. Participating in real dialogue helps widen our understanding of people and the world around us and hopefully enables us to be less condemning or belittling of others. I met a proclaimed atheist while in Guatemala and she said she doesn't like telling people because of the reaction - especially in Latin America. She explained to me some of why she was atheist and I didn't frown on her or her beliefs. I could actually understand where she was coming from and I think being able to see others' point of view helps me be a better person.


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## aywilkes (Sep 2, 2006)

I told her that to me G-d is nature - it is not a "he" or an image of man.
I then thought about how it isn't important to me said:


> It is important for my DS who is 8 to become/be a spiritual person and recognize the universal spiritual laws that I believe are at work whether we believe in them or not. (E.g. Thoughts held in mind produce in kind). I think it is important for him to have faith in his higher self. We attend a VERY OPEN Unity church and I chose that place because I needed a place that believed what I believe and I felt like my DS wasn't getting enough ideas about spirituality from me. It didn't matter to me the faith - I actually looked for an inter-faith place but this church is what I found. They don't believe God is a being like a man - just a universal power. They don't believe in original sin or that you should pray to Jesus either. What they DO however, is sell books in their bookstore from other faiths and focus on metaphysics. I bought my son a book on World Religions because it is important for me that he respect and appreciate all - not tolerate, but appreciate and that he choose the correct path for him - that path can include or not include a religion but I do think he needs a spiritual base that will help guide him to do the right thing and be able to co-create his life in line with his mission in this lifetime. I take him to church with me because it is a welcoming, open environment. I used to practice Buddhism and my mom still does. My son says he is half Christian half Buddhist and I tell him he doesn't have to be any religion - they are man made. I do, however, feel guilty that I didn't "have it together" as far as my beliefs Prior to my DS because I don't want him to be confused and feel thrown about.


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## EXOLAX (May 22, 2005)

I agree with Siobhan and Monkeys4mama. I said in an earlier post that we are trying to raise our girls with certain ideals, values, ethics etc.. We are skeptics, and it is very important to us to raise critical thinkers. I equate Monkeys4mama's comparison quote to our belief and value in critical thought. She wants to raise children who believe in god and we want to raise children who think critically. I would be dissapointed if I failed in this task, and I would continue to guide our children down a path akin to our beliefs.

Our 5 year old DD has not been raised with any religion. She has had outside religious influences and home discussions on what religion is and simple definitions on what some religions believe. We have not informed her of our beliefs. She was speaking with another child a week ago about how winter was coming, but first it would be fall and the leaves have to fall off the trees. The other child kept asking her probing questions and DD kept answering scientifically; "The earth moves and we get further away from the sun so it will get colder and rain will turn to snow." etc. The other child was never satisfied with her answers and kept asking "Why?". (It was indeed delightful to watch from both sides.) Eventually DD said "Well, because it's the rule of the world. And the ruler makes the rules!". I asked her about the ruler (offered no judgment) and she said it was a big head floating around in the sky making the rules. I immediatly had visions of Russels Teapot and struggled against saying anything, but I realised she was processing many things in her life and looking at the big picture it seemed logical for her to make that leap. I left her with her thoughts of her ruler.

I am not going to tell our children what to believe. I am not going to say I know something for a fact if all I have is a emotion to go on, logic dictates that to me. But I do feel the need to combat intellectually the outside religious influences that our children are hit with on an presumptive and arrogant level very consistantly. I am not frustrated with the expression of self belief, nor with the questioning of belief or faith. I am frustrated by assumptions of belief and the attaching of behavior to faith done by strangers to my children. I would love to see more questioning going on, and probing of ideas and less dictatorial expression of views.

We recently did a bill of rights with our oldest for herself (as she processed the introduction of new rules in her life through school) . We talked about many things; right to healthy food, right to water, right to personal space, right to make mistakes, right to use the bathroom and others. One of my personal favorites is the right to ask questions. I hope our children never stop asking "Why?" or "How?".

So, how have others dealth with those situations where their child has expressed a belief different from their own? When faced with that scenario, did you react as you thought you would (to reinforce your own beliefs or allow them to process theirs)?


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

xaloxe, very interesting post.


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## Slingin'Momto4 (Oct 1, 2003)

Yes, I expect my children to believe in God as we are religious and we go to church and pray etc.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:

I am not going to tell our children what to believe. I am not going to say I know something for a fact if all I have is a emotion to go on, logic dictates that to me.
Xaloxe,

I enjoyed your post and agree about the value of critical thinking. However, there is a fundamental difference between guiding a person to believe what the parent wishes, and allowing them to determine what they believe for themselves. The first assumes that the child won't inherently agree of their own accord and must be "taught" (read convinced). The second involves trust in the inherent ability of a person to critically determine their own beliefs. There is a Taoist saying *'the difference between "certain" and "perhaps" isn't much after all'*. So, even if 'our logic dictates' otherwise, there really aren't "facts" to deny that there is a God. Or need to teach that there is one.

Perception makes it so. If one believes *and acts* according to such belief in a God of Love, or a God of Fear, that *belief* dictates their actions, just as logic (an uncertain belief) dictates other's actions. Neither belief "doesn't" exist. Both beliefs exist in the mind/heart/soul of the believer. Some of us believe in logic, some of us believe in faith. Is there a difference?

Truth is a mirage, the closer we come to it the more invisible it becomes.

Pat


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## aywilkes (Sep 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *xaloxe*
So, how have others dealth with those situations where their child has expressed a belief different from their own? When faced with that scenario, did you react as you thought you would (to reinforce your own beliefs or allow them to process theirs)?

I really agree with all of your post. I love it actually! I do wnat my child to be a critical thinker - because I am _ and my theory is that because so many people are raised to not question things, that is why when a politician says something - everyone takes his "facts" and run with it. That aside, in my earlier post I stated that I used to practice Nichiren's Buddhism but now attend a Unity church - very open, liberal, recognizes the value in many faiths/philosophies, etc. Someone asked my son about God and my DS (8) said he doesn't believe in God. I did feel uncomfortable (or embarassed) because this person who asked does. Also because my concept of God is not a person in the sky - I don't believe in physical heaven or hell or anything like that - not your usual God that is talked about. I do believe, however, in this inexplicable universal lifeforce existing everywhere. So later I talked to my son and he said he is a Buddha at heart. (my mom is still Buddhist and at any opportunity will advocate for my son to continue chanting). I told my son that Buddha = enlightened one (not sure how I explained enlightened though) and that being a Buddha doesn't mean that he doesn't believe in a universal power. Then I started asking him questions about his purpose for prayer - when he prayers. I am not so sure I did a good job being totally neutral though - but that is with ANYTHING. I don't care about him having a religion - I just want him to have a connection to his higher self and to employ certain principles in his life. (E.g. I always tell him that in order to receive more, you must be willing to give "stuff away" or just give thanks and I walked him through tangible examples of how expressing thanks and giving physical gifts have resulted in receiving more.) I don't know...It is difficult for me to be totally unbiased in my communication with DS about spirituality but I guess I didn't question the way I present my views before because I feel like I am an open person. Hmm ...now I'm confused.







:


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

aywilkes,

It sounds like your son is enlightened. He doesn't have the need share, convince or explain his beliefs. They are his without attachment to others agreeing.









Pat


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

Xaloxe - I loved your post and I think you have two very lucky daughters. My question is how can you keep your beliefs to yourself? I can be a loud and opinionated person so I can't imagine my daughter not knowing how I stand even if I never tell her. -I am not criticizing, I really want to know how you handle this.

My $.02.

If you had asked me a year ago, I would have told you that I am merely a guide in my daughter's life and that she will find her own path and her own beliefs. I thought it was my job to point out the paths rather then force her down one. That was when we lived in The Good Place (TGP).

Now we live in Dallas, Texas and I have found my thoughts on this subject have changed dramatically. In TGP, I had the luxury to have my own beliefs without being treated as a pariah to all things good and pure. I had friends of all religions, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Atheist, Agnostic, Pagan, Wiccan and although we sometimes had disagreements about religions and ethics, we could debate and still respect eachother afterwards. Here, in Dallas, I have met a few truely wonderful people who happen to be mostly Christian. The problem is there is a very vocal group of Christians who I feel violate my religious boundaries. As a result, I feel assulted when someone references my religion and my reaction is to fight them.

I can't say I would be disappointed if my daughter believed in god. I would be angry if she was one of the vocal Christians one finds in Dallas; I would be angry if she accepted a religion without questioning. I don't expect for her to have the exact same beliefs as my husband and I do, but I do expect for her to come by her beliefs honestly.


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