# Critique this scenario, please



## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

At the grocery store today, DS (4) got a piece of cheese from the deli lady. DD (1.5) wanted some too. I guess I could have asked for another piece, but I didn't. It was a pretty big piece. So I said to DS, "Maddie wants some cheese." I think at first he said he didn't want to give her some, and I said something along the lines of, "You have a huge piece, just give her some." So he broke off a teeny tiny piece and gave it to DD. I told him that wasn't enough, he had to give her some more. So he broke off another teeny tiny piece. "Cole," I said, "just give her a decent piece of cheese! How would you feel if Maddie had a giant piece of cheese and only gave you a tiny bit?" He said he wouldn't like it. "Well, Maddie doesn't either!" Still he refused to share the cheese, so I reached over and tore a piece off it and gave it to DD. I made sure not to take a lot, his piece was still bigger. He started to freak out and I said "Uh uh! You do not throw a fit because you have to share with your sister! You are being selfish! In this family we share what we have with one another!" I wasn't yelling, but I was using a stern tone of voice. He quieted down and seemed to get over it quickly.

So. Clearly not the most GD response.







: The obvious solution was in the beginning, to get DD her own cheese. At the time I felt like that would have been rude, and that was why I didn't, but in hindsight I should have. But, let's imagine for a minute that wasn't an option. What do you do when sibs refuse to share, say, a bottle of water when they're both thirsty on a hot day? And there's only one bottle of water?

Thanks for all input.


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## Max'sMama (Apr 3, 2004)

I think you handled it beautifully. How isn't this GD? GD doesn't say that you have to give your child everything he/she wants. You expressed to your son, what you expected and when he was not super generous, you showed him. The taking of the cheese may have been less than gentle (though I would likely have done the same), but expecting more from the counter, could be seen as being greedy.

I just rechecked the alternatives to punishment and found this: (why??? because you expressed what needed to be done and he didn't want to.)
Instead of punishing you went with many of these!

*Leave it up to your child.

Compromise.

State your expectations, and get out of the way.

Give specific instructions.

Give a reason.

Offer help.

Give a choice.

Give your child time to agree.

Simply insist.*

You stated your expectations, left it up to your child. He didn't share much, so you gave a choice, gave time to agree, gave reasons and finally, helped your child and simply insisted.


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## MaryLang (Jun 18, 2004)

I think you did ok. sometimes there are situations that arise where because of local, or other outside reason you don't have the time to get things perfect, just find other examples through the course of the day to help ds understand others feelings and sharing. IMHO.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I think you did good.


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## Mama2RMM (Aug 24, 2004)

I think that you are right that reaching over and tearing the cheese in two yourself was not very respectful, but I also think that he has to accept that part of family is sharing.

I have three girls, and we are just now encountering times where my oldest needs to share with her sisters. She knows that there are several things in the house that she does not have to share (her blanket, her stuffed animal, and her special cup), but we are teaching her that everything else belongs to our family.

In the instance of toys, I use the rule of if we can't share than perhaps we should find a new activity. I think it would've worked well in your case too. "We have one piece of cheese and two hungry mouths! Please share with your sister or we will have to put the cheese away until snacktime later."

If that didn't prompt sharing, then I would've indeed explained that I was going to tear the cheese in half to share with everyone. If that caused a temper flare up, then (personally) I would do what we always do when anger/frustration/whatever happens in a store... try to talk it through and if it doesn't work out for us to be in the store than we leave.


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## Anarkissed Mama (Oct 30, 2006)

Well, I agree with the pp that we can't always get it right and we have to be forgiving of ourselves when that happens. Having said that, there are a few critiques and suggestions I'd like to make.

As parents it is our job to instill values in our children, such as sharing, but wheh we do that through coercion we are teaching them that this is a valid method of "getting one's way." Be polite. Ask nicely. But if that doesn't work, use coercion to get your way. I think that's a troubling message.

I am finding more and more that when I start with empathy with humans of any age the conversation tends to go better, even if I slip in another message later on. Instead of telling your son that he can't throw a tantrum, I would say, "I know it can be really hard to share and I can see that you're upset." Maybe then follow that with something like, "I am going to put the cheese up for a little while since we are having trouble deciding who gets to eat it." If the emotion he is feeling is anger, telling him he can't feel it is just going to make him stuff it or get angrier, essentially escalating the situation.

Finally, the part that was the most upsetting to me was when you told ds that he was selfish. IMO this is shaming.







: It is your diagnosis or judgment of his behavior. Expression of our judgments rarely facilitates understanding, although it may get you compliance in the moment.

I realize your son is only 4 but do you think you could have a sort of family meeting where he participated in creating some really basic ground rules for the family? Only do this if you are truly willing to incorporate his contributions. This would give him a chance to feel a part of the rule-making and thus more likely to be agreeable.

Another thought is to approach it right from the start with a clear directive(no choices). "I am going to give Maddie some of your cheese and then you can finish your part." The way you approached it almost seemed like a negotiation. "You have a huge piece, just give her some."

I hope this feedback was helpful. It's not my intention to flame you.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

This is just my opinion. I don't think the issue is so clearcut that you were wrong in how you handled it.

To my way of thinking, your son received a gift, just as if he had received a birthday present. The lady at the deli counter gave it to HIM. If my DD receives a gift, she is not required to share it. She would be encouraged to do so but would not be required unless it had been stated up front, "this is for you and your sister."

I would focus on dealing with the other child's disappointment, and try to help her through it. Sometimes when the attention is off the first child and they aren't feeling pressured, they become free to witness the other child's disappointment, and may then (sometimes) choose to share out of genuine empathy.

It must be terribly disappointing to be given something then have some of it taken away. I remember an incident in my childhood in which the Jaycee's came around at Halloween time and gave out pumpkins and threw out candy from their wagon, which my little brother collected excitedly and put in a little bag. I had been at sunday school and when I got home I was terribly disappointed hat I had missed out. My parents did not make my brother share with me, but they tried to help me through my disappointment by making a special treat bag of cookies instead. It wasn't the same and I was still disappointed, but it helped to know that they cared about my feelings. My brother didn't turn out to be a selfish miser and is very generous to me and my DD as an adult.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I agree with BC (as usual!) I think its clearcut that you should not have taken the cheese from him. I also think that its okay to make mistakes, and will admit that I've done things like that before too! But you know all that.

I would have asked for another peice of cheese.

We go through this exact scenerio all the time, btw. My ten year old will share anything and everything with his little brother, no qualms. In his mind, it must be awful to be left out. He doesn't want to let anyone feel left out or bereft. My six year old son will never ever share anything. Ever. We are consantly saying things like, _"Big brother is thirsty, and you have a full water bottle. If you were thirsty, he would share a drink with you. Please share your drink."_ But we've never come right out and forced the issue.

We do have conversations at non-stressful times about the importance of sharing and being good to people. I think it is sinking in, slowly but surely.

That said, life isn't fair. And there have been plenty of times that I've wanted to keep something good all to myself. In fact -- just last night I had chinese food after the kids were asleep, and I actually *hid* my leftovers so that I wouldn't have to share them today!


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I thought a few people would chime in with the "but it's a gift" argument. Personally I feel like, if my one kiddo has food and my other kiddo (or someone else in the family) is hungry, we share. I would not hog food all to myself while my child cried and begged for some, and likewise I would expect my child to share what they have with other family members.

I think sometimes this GD worrying about the child's feelings can create selfishness.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

I don't think you handled the situation badly. There are so many other things you could have done that would have been far worse.

That said, I believe that while sharing is good, having one's own without the requirement of sharing is just as important. It gives a feeling of empowerment.

I would have asked my son to share the cheese. If he had been reluctant, I would have asked for another piece. I might have pointed out that in the future, he might want to think about sharing since it is not always possible to get another piece of cheese and he might want some of hers one day.

I am a little colored by this because I really hated when I was little and my dad would take bites of my food without asking.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd* 
What do you do when sibs refuse to share, say, a bottle of water when they're both thirsty on a hot day? And there's only one bottle of water?

In that sort of situation I'd assume the bottle was a *family* bottle and you, as the parent, would be responsible for distributing the contents amoungst the family. You wouldn't say "ds this bottle of water is for you" "now give your sister a drink from your bottle of water."

At dinner, you don't give everyone their own dish--"the salad is mine" "Daddy gets the potatos" "ds you have the water" "dd, this is your chicken"--and then have everyone share, everyone automatically shares because the food belongs to the family and everyone is a member of the family. Once things belong to a specific person, it needs to be that person's *choice* whether to share.

In the cheese situation, if there were no pieces left, I like to think I would have said, "ds, I'm sorry, I didn't realize there wasn't a piece for dd when I gave you that piece, could you please give half to dd?" But really, yes, you should have just gotten her her own piece, given her as much as she's likely to eat and then just had the rest yourself or given more to ds.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

In our home, the goal is meeting everyone's underlying needs, not "equal treatment" or some subjective construct of "fair". When one feels a sense of abundance, the willingness to share doesn't need to be forced, ime. So, if ds was enjoying his cheese, and dd wanted some cheese, I would find a way to make that happen. One option is to buy a chunk or slice of cheese. But, perhaps, something equally preferable to your daughter, such as a cookie or fruit or granola bar, etc. would meet the immediate desire for something to eat. I don't believe that an "equal" portion of the *same* item is the only way to meet the need. Certainly, as parents we can tell our children "here is an equal portion" and *create* the need for "my share". If dd is hungry, I'd discuss what she would like to have and try to meet that. I don't understand how what one person wants is relevant to what another person possesses. I want (and don't have) many things that others have. There is no compulsion to "share" with others, or with me. I don't want to model taking what I want from others just because they have what I want! I would model *asking* for what I/dd wants.

I share from a sense of gifting and joy. I don't want "sharing" to be associated with hurt and sadness. Taking the cheese probably doesn't meet your underlying goal of ds learning the joy of sharing, imo.

Pat


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I agree with you, OP! The solution was to ask for two pieces of cheese....my dd1 does that for her sister anytime someone is handing out goodies. People often assume she's trying to get two for herself! (I'm amazed at how programmed we are to assume the worst of children.)

I don't steal my kid's stuff. My kids are amazing at sharing, especially when someone has a genuine need (hunger, thirst, etc.). I think in part because I don't take their stuff.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:

I think sometimes this GD worrying about the child's feelings can create selfishness.
In what ways do you mean this? Are you saying that parents who consider needs and feelings create selfish children? I'd like to better understand what you're saying


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

This is a tricky one. I found myself agreeing with all posters. I agreed with BC, then thismama posted & I agreed with her...

Had to think a bit on it.

Ultimately, I think the only really fair response would be to have asked for another peice of cheese.

This is a good one to "file away" for if a situation like this comes up again.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

I think WuWei's phrased it best. I especially like how you made it a concept not a rule. That's my downfall, I keep wanting to make rules for how to handle things instead of looking at underlying concepts.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia* 
In what ways do you mean this? Are you saying that parents who consider needs and feelings create selfish children? I'd like to better understand what you're saying









I dunno, it's hard to articulate. I guess what I'm saying is there is a line, kwim? I'm all for being gentle and loving and respectful, and considering the child. To a point. After that it becomes too child-focused for me, like the one child's feelings are considered to the exclusion of other people. You get a piece of cheese, your sibling doesn't, your sibling wants some. Share, dammit! Yk? Not, well it's his cheese and he shouldn't have to share if he doesn't want to, etc. I like the idea of we work together as a family, and mama is the leader/guider. (And dad if you have one). Sometimes for me that involves laying down the line, speaking very directly, parent imposed sharing, or parent imposed consequences.

Personally I don't have the energy to take forever to figure out every situation. Harried in a grocery store, I would be inclined to ask the child to share, and if they refused, I would enforce sharing, with a respectfully but directly delivered explanation of the fact that the child is expected to share, and a short explanation of why.

And then move on to the frozen aisle...

ETA - And when I say 'ask,' I mean not: "Can you please share with your little brother?" But more like, "Can you please share with your little brother."


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
I think WuWei's phrased it best. I especially like how you made it a concept not a rule. That's my downfall, I keep wanting to make rules for how to handle things instead of looking at underlying concepts.

Reread her bit, yes I agree...

Me, too...with the rule thing. Must work on that.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

I do not believe you can "teach" sharing by forcing it or imposed "consequences" around the concept. If anything, I believe it makes kids not want to share. Look at it from the boy's perspective. Someone gave him a "gift". Then someone else told him he had to share and how much he had to share. As an adult, it is easy for us to see the "unfairness" of the boy having cheese and the girl not getting any. I agree with pps that life is not fair. But there are ways as a parent that I can help everyone get what they want. It is not a big hassle. It does not take a lot of time. And it teaches more about the whole situation than forcing the act of sharing. If I had been in that sitiuation, I would have gone back and got another piece. If that was impossible, I would ask ds to save his cheese for a few minutes until we checked out and I could give something to dd that she was happy with it. Or better yet, I would ask him what would be a good solution to his sister being upset about her cheese-free state. Without shaming or grabbing, he might have decided to share as his own idea or came up with something we are totally missing.

FTR, I also do not believe that any amount of "considering children's feelings" creates selfishness. It is modelling the opposite of selfishness.

To the OP. That situation sucks and it is really easy to play Monday Morning Quarterback. We do the best we can and don't beat ourselves up about it. In the end I am sure you did just fine. The fact that you question it and are asking suggests that you do care what your son's feelings were and that is really all that will matter in the end. I might sit down with ds and ask him if he remembers it. Talk about his ideas on how the situation could be handelled in the future. You might be surprised.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I don't know, I do believe you can teach sharing by enforcing it. Sort of like, "This is our value system." And mama makes sure we live it. That means sometimes one child benefits and the other sacrifices, sometimes the other child benefits from another person's sacrifice. A lot of times mama sacrifices and the children benefit.

That's how I do it, anyway.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Yet again...I like Yooper.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
FTR, I also do not believe that any amount of "considering children's feelings" creates selfishness. It is modelling the opposite of selfishness.

I think there is a balance. I see waht you are saying for sure. But then I don't always know if this actually teaches children to consider other people's feelings, or if it teaches them that the world revolves around them, kwim?

I think that as well as considering children's feelings, we have to actively encourage and assist them to consider other people's feelings. I don't believe that just considering their feelings, all the time, works.

IME my child doesn't have adult-type empathy for other beings. So she would be very happy to not have to share something like cheese with anyone else, no matter how upset that person is. And she would be very happy to kick the dog whenever the mood strikes. She doesn't *care* in an adult way that kicking hurts the dog, kwim?

So sometimes it comes down to, "You may not kick the dog." And, "You need to share with other people."


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

I think most children have more empathy than most adults.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
I think most children have more empathy than most adults.

Well, then mine is a little psycho in the making.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Holy moly, thismama! When you were in school...ever win any blue ribbons in typing class? Every time I post & go back to GD you've already replied...ahh, the last of the hunt & peckers I am!


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## neveryoumindthere (Mar 21, 2003)

maybe have the person at the deli counter cut it in two? I'm just thinking maybe that's what i would do..or maybe, telling your dd, looks like ur hungry too, let's see what snack we can get for you (NOT in a "too bad ds, we're getting smthg better for dd" just to make him share)...often that's enough to get *my* dd to realize that her little sister would want some, and if not, doesnt matter, ur getting her a snack anyway...dont know if that's coercion







:

otherwise, i agree with thismama..fortunately sharing is not a big issue here (we have other issues.lol)...


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## SharonAnne (Jul 12, 2004)

I only have one babe, so far, so I don't have any real world experience with this, and as such, I'll refrain from offering my opinion.

HOWEVER, I did want to ask....WTH is wrong with the deli clerk? Who would give one piece of cheese to a child when there are two children there? Cripes.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
Yet again...I like Yooper.









Thanks


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SharonAnne* 
WTH is wrong with the deli clerk? Who would give one piece of cheese to a child when there are two children there? Cripes.

That's what I was thinking, too...now I am off to get a peice of cheese, the craving has hit...I







cheese! And, me? I'd of jumped the counter if I was actively craving when DS got handed some...


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
Thanks

















YW...I had said than in another thread earlier today, hence the "yet again." You are really very smart & easy to read.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I think there is a balance. I see waht you are saying for sure. But then I don't always know if this actually teaches children to consider other people's feelings, or if it teaches them that the world revolves around them, kwim?

I think that as well as considering children's feelings, we have to actively encourage and assist them to consider other people's feelings. I don't believe that just considering their feelings, all the time, works.

IME my child doesn't have adult-type empathy for other beings. So she would be very happy to not have to share something like cheese with anyone else, no matter how upset that person is. And she would be very happy to kick the dog whenever the mood strikes. She doesn't *care* in an adult way that kicking hurts the dog, kwim?

So sometimes it comes down to, "You may not kick the dog." And, "You need to share with other people."

I do not know how old your dc is. I know that my dc went through a time in which impulse control was an issue for her. She knew that hurting the cat was not OK with the cat. She even felt bad for hurting the cat. But could not help herself from seeing if kitty's tail came off. I do not think that it was alck of empathy. It was a lack of control. And during that time, it was my job to prevent the situation from occurring again. I had to supervise any time dd was near the cat. But I did not punish her for it. I recognized that she literally could not stop herself and punishment was just going to make a bad situation worse. What I did do was help her develope steps to get what she was yearning to do. She knew that she could ask me any time and I would be happy to sit with her, get the cat, and show her how the cat worked. I know that sounds funny, but it "worked". Dd quit hurting the cat, the cat was happy, and after a month or so, dd was fine around the cat and has been ever since. Literally not one problem.

But back to sharing..... Kids process things different than we do. Just because the boy could not bring himself to share the cheese does not mean he does not care about his siter's feelings. He very well could have both feelings. But wanting to eat the cheese himself won out that moment. That is a perfectly valid and developmentally appropriate feeling for a 4 yo. Taking a half and forcing him to share it does not change his feeling about the original sharing question. That still stands but now he feels violated, shamed, and misunderstood. None of with are good tools for teaching IMO. Respecting his feelings and finding a solution that gets everyone what they want models empathy. I believe that modelling is the best teaching tool and I realize some people disagree which might be where the split is on this discussion?


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I don't think there was only one response to fit your situation OP. Clearly many GD families have very different interpretations









From the sound of it you would have liked to use more supportive language with your ds.

Whether you should approach sharing by having a rule or having a concept is up the individual family. I don't think either is a right or wrong in terms of GD.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
I do not know how old your dc is.

3.

Quote:

I know that my dc went through a time in which impulse control was an issue for her. She knew that hurting the cat was not OK with the cat. She even felt bad for hurting the cat. But could not help herself from seeing if kitty's tail came off. I do not think that it was alck of empathy. It was a lack of control.
For mine, it is not that simple. Because once I started doing time out every time she hurt the animals, she was able to control herself.

Quote:

And during that time, it was my job to prevent the situation from occurring again. I had to supervise any time dd was near the cat.
See, I just simply don't have this kind of energy. I cannot drop everything any time my child is near one of the animals.

It's about balance for me. I need to continue to have a life. I need to be able to relax, I need to be able to cook food and do the dishes. I need to be able to grocery shop, and go to the beach and leave when *I* want to (with adequate warning).

I'm finding some of the ideas on this board are unrealistic, at least for my life. My kid does not behave in the rosy ways people here say their children behave. I do not have the endless energy other mamas here seem to have, and I am not always willing to put my own agenda to the side for my child.

I believe in GD, wholeheartedly. But some of the ideas here go beyond the reasonable for me.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
Holy moly, thismama! When you were in school...ever win any blue ribbons in typing class? Every time I post & go back to GD you've already replied...ahh, the last of the hunt & peckers I am!









I missed this! Yeah, I type like 90 WPM. And I have a quick computer now, and I'm interested in this discussion!


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie*
I would focus on dealing with the other child's disappointment, and try to help her through it. Sometimes when the attention is off the first child and they aren't feeling pressured, they become free to witness the other child's disappointment, and may then (sometimes) choose to share out of genuine empathy.

Yep.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
Taking a half and forcing him to share it does not change his feeling about the original sharing question. That still stands but now he feels violated, shamed, and misunderstood. None of with are good tools for teaching IMO.











I don't force sharing. I model and encourage it. If my son didn't want to share his cheese I would get little sister her own cheese or something else. FWIW, my kids are 2, 9, 12, and 14--they've never been forced to share and they are all very generous and giving.


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## Oana (May 15, 2006)

Was Maddie satisfied with the first teeny piece? Because she may surprinsingly been ok with it and you could have left it at that. Just a thought.

If not, then you dealt with things pretty well, as it seems nobody got too frustrated.

Oana


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

You know, I'm just not getting this value system. "You don't have to share unless you want to." With your own sibling/family? Never mind how the other person feels, nobody is going to ask you to consider it. Just your own feelings.

I know somebody who lives by this ethic. He thinks he is spiritually *enlightened.* But you know, he is probably the rudest, most selfish, self-centred person I know. He displays a remarkable lack of regard for the feelings of others, and focuses on his internal desire only: Does he *want* to share? Apart from how the other person feels? And usually the answer is no.

I don't want to raise my child like that.

As my child's mother, if I have been given food, and she is hungry and crying for some, I will share with her. I would feel like a callous, cold-hearted, deeply ungenerous person to deny her food while I enjoy it and she cries. She knows that if I have food, and she desires some, she will get some.

What would I be teaching her if I did not require that same behaviour from her?

That others will consider her feelings in their actions, but she is not obligated to do the same? That her feelings are paramount, and others' less important? That she is *entitled* to random gifts and others are not? That she is entitled because she has, and others are not entitled if they do not have?

Those are not values I am interested in teaching in my family.

It is okay to make a decision sometimes. It is okay to override a child's desire for the greater good. It is okay to own one's own authority here. This is not a roommate situation. We are the parents, they the children, for a reason.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
You know, I'm just not getting this value system. "You don't have to share unless you want to." With your own sibling/family? Never mind how the other person feels, nobody is going to ask you to consider it. Just your own feelings.

I know somebody who lives by this ethic. He thinks he is spiritually *enlightened.* But you know, he is probably the rudest, most selfish, self-centred person I know. He displays a remarkable lack of regard for the feelings of others, and focuses on his internal desire only: Does he *want* to share? Apart from how the other person feels? And usually the answer is no.

I don't want to raise my child like that.

As my child's mother, if I have been given food, and she is hungry and crying for some, I will share with her. I would feel like a callous, cold-hearted, deeply ungenerous person to deny her food while I enjoy it and she cries. She knows that if I have food, and she desires some, she will get some.

What would I be teaching her if I did not require that same behaviour from her?

That others will consider her feelings in their actions, but she is not obligated to do the same? That her feelings are paramount, and others' less important? That she is *entitled* to random gifts and others are not? That she is entitled because she has, and others are not entitled if they do not have?

Those are not values I am interested in teaching in my family.

It is okay to make a decision sometimes. It is okay to override a child's desire for the greater good. It is okay to own one's own authority here. This is not a roommate situation. We are the parents, they the children, for a reason.

I think it is perfectly OK for you to have that opinion and to choose to raise your child that way. Obviously we are all doing what we think is best. If more authority is what you believe to be best, I think you should do that. We are just knocking around opinions and ideas here. I completely agree with you that the world would be a crappy place if no one shared (or had manners or was nice or whatever). We just disagree on how it is best to teach that to our children. I do not think you can punish (shame, force, etc.....) good behavior into kids. I do not find it to be any more "work" to avoid these things. It takes as much effort to take the cheese, break it in two, hand it out, and deal with an unhappy child as it does to find a solution that works for everyone. Maybe even less time actually. But I would still do it even if it took more time because I believe modelling compassion is better for my kid than behaviorism. But I realize that is a fundamental parenting philosophy opinion that we do not all necessarily share, and that is OK. That is why we have such fun discussions


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
I think it is perfectly OK for you to have that opinion and to choose to raise your child that way. Obviously we are all doing what we think is best. If more authority is what you believe to be best, I think you should do that. We are just knocking around opinions and ideas here. I completely agree with you that the world would be a crappy place if no one shared (or had manners or was nice or whatever). We just disagree on how it is best to teach that to our children. I do not think you can punish (shame, force, etc.....) good behavior into kids. I do not find it to be any more "work" to avoid these things. It takes as much effort to take the cheese, break it in two, hand it out, and deal with an unhappy child as it does to find a solution that works for everyone. Maybe even less time actually. But I would still do it even if it took more time because I believe modelling compassion is better for my kid than behaviorism. But I realize that is a fundamental parenting philosophy opinion that we do not all necessarily share, and that is OK. That is why we have such fun discussions









You know, I'm hanging on in this discussion, because honestly I can't imagine what some people here are saying. If it could work, and feel okay in my gut, well I would want to do it. I aim to be as gentle as possible in my parenting, without making myself crazy with my own perceived martyrdom.

I'm trying to imagine seeing some of you at the grocery store, or the park, and seeing how you parent. I'm wildly curious about it as a possibility, but honestly I can't even quite *believe* some of what is typed here. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, and that your children aren't as decent as the next kid, but it's just so outside the realm of my own imagination. I can't even conceive of it really.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd* 
He started to freak out and I said "Uh uh! You do not throw a fit because you have to share with your sister! You are being selfish! In this family we share what we have with one another!" I wasn't yelling, but I was using a stern tone of voice. He quieted down and seemed to get over it quickly.

So. Clearly not the most GD response.







:

I agree with you there, that it was not the most gd respons. Just the wording of what you said, and actually kinda the concept.
As far as forcing sharing, I don't know what I'd do. Ideally, I agree with the others who said not to. But in the moment, I think my sense of fairness for my other (hypothetical) child might take over, like it did for you.
I am one to open packages of food in the grocery store before I pay for it. So I might try to find a snack type thing to help out the situation.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

I dunno...it seems to me that people (children included) rebel against authority. With less ridgedness & rules they are free to breathe, decompress & not always be testing boundries & asserting themselves. Without "confines" kids aren't always looking to prove to someone (parents mostly) that they're in control of themselves. Take away the power & you eliminate power struggles. Me, I've adapted a "whatever" policy here & it works beautifully!


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
I am one to open packages of food in the grocery store before I pay for it. So I might try to find a snack type thing to help out the situation.

I do that all the time!


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
You know, I'm just not getting this value system. "You don't have to share unless you want to." With your own sibling/family? Never mind how the other person feels, nobody is going to ask you to consider it. Just your own feelings.

I don't see anyone saying this here. I said I don't _force_ sharing, but I do teach it by example and guidance. We always consider others feelings--which is why I wouldn't rip the cheese from my child's hand. I don't think that shows much regard for his feelings.

Quote:

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, and that your children aren't as decent as the next kid, but it's just so outside the realm of my own imagination.
Why is it hard to believe that those that are treated decently learn to treat others decently?


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I'm OK with enforcing sharing, but I wouldn't have just taken it from his hand without warning, and I wouldn't have reprimanded him for not wanting to share. I just would have facilitated it calmly and gently, and reminded him of the expectation for next time.

I would have explained it to him before he took the first bite that we needed to split it. If that wasn't possible and the exchange happened too quickly, I would have asked for the piece of cheese and told him I was going to split it, and if not produced, told him I was going to split with his sister before I reached for it. I would have empathized that it is sometimes hard to share, but that it's important to us in our family to be generous and share food with each other. I wouldn't have called him selfish.

Others mentioned it beign a "gift" to him, but I see a big difference between a present (which I would not require sharing) and a piece of cheese given spur of the moment by a deli clerk.

And a big 'ole







: to the PP who mentioned WTH was wrong with that clerk only giving one piece of cheese when there were two kids? Good grief.

Also, in the future, I'd step in and have treats handed to YOU, so you can distribute them. That's what I do, even though it's just DS getting them - cause we usually share them and I mention it to him how it's fun to share special treats. I never have "strangers" give him food directly. Always through me.

Overall, I don't think it is all that bad; just a couple minor tweaks to store away for future reference....I do a LOT of that myself (not handling things the best way the first time and tucking away advice for next time














)


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:

For mine, it is not that simple. Because once I started doing time out every time she hurt the animals, she was able to control herself.
What keeps her from pulling the cat's tail when the parent is not watching?

IMO, this leads to sneaking to do what the child wants. And then lying when questioned or caught (to avoid the punishment-which is the operative threat). Time outs do not eliminate *their desire*. Understanding the impact and *choosing* not to pull the cat's tail protects the cat even when the parent is not watching every single minute (which agreeably is nearly impossible). We found that explaining how to "listen" to the verbal and non-verbal communication (ears back, pulling away, tail down, hissing, etc.), and modelling how the cat liked to receive attention and love met our son's need for interacting with the cat. It also met his need for my attention when he wanted my engagement.

Pat


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnysideup* 
I don't see anyone saying this here. I said I don't _force_ sharing, but I do teach it by example and guidance.

Well, but IMO the example you are showing is that they do not have to share, right? You ask the child if he wants to share, he says no, you don't communicate a negative judgment about that because that would be *shaming.* Right?

Then you just empathize with the poor kiddo who has no cheese, or ask the gift-giver for another gift because your kid won't share the gift your family has already received? Or, as someone else suggested, you open up a package of food in the store that you haven't paid for, because you don't want to 'force' your child to share?

That is outrageous to me! I gotta say. It sounds good in theory, but I can't imagine actually *doing* it and feeling okay about what my non-cheese-sharer was learning about his or her entitlement and power in our family.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
I'm OK with enforcing sharing,

What if you were eating the meal of your dreams...it smells great, looks, heavenly...you lift the fork to your mouth & DH bursts in with "You WILL split that with me NOW," and snatches it away...giving you NO say. Is that OK, too? What if he gave you a say & you said no...then he did it anyhow?

That's also enforced sharing & IMO a terrible way to treat people...little people as well as big.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:

Was Maddie satisfied with the first teeny piece? Because she may surprinsingly been ok with it and you could have left it at that.
This is such an important variable not to overlook, I wanted to quote it.







For instance, one time, the boys were playing on the trampoline and I noted "play without touching" because they were banging and bumping into each other, and I was concerned that they were being too rough. But, the boys each said 'no, we like it and are having fun'. Often, our filter of a situation isn't the same as the child's.

Pat


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
What keeps her from pulling the cat's tail when the parent is not watching?

Well, sometimes nothing. But if she gets into a cat-tail-pulling thing, it soon becomes evident because the cat starts to meow. And then I'm alerted, and I give her a time out, and I keep a sharper eye/ear for a little while. Which doesn't preclude me doing other things the way stopping everything to sit with her, yet again, would do.

I

Quote:

MO, this leads to sneaking to do what the child wants. And then lying when questioned or caught (to avoid the punishment-which is the operative threat). Time outs do not eliminate *their desire*. Understanding the impact and *choosing* not to pull the cat's tail protects the cat even when the parent is not watching every single minute
But when do you give up trying to get this understanding and cooperation? I started doing time outs after several other strategies had failed, including repeated explanations of why the cat doesn't like it when we hurt him, and including repeated demonstrations of how to treat the cat gently.

Finally it was like... enough. Time out, every time. Which has been the best working strategy I've had so far for this.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
What if you were eating the meal of your dreams...it smells great, looks, heavenly...you lift the fork to your mouth & DH bursts in with "You WILL split that with me NOW," and snatches it away...giving you NO say. Is that OK, too? What if he gave you a say & you said no...then he did it anyhow?

This is different. This is not the 'meal of his dreams.' It is a piece of cheese, which his hungry sibling does not have.

If I were eating supper and my family member was hungry and had no food, I would share. How could it be okay not to?


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## my4magpies (Mar 24, 2006)

I think you did just fine. My kids have to share a lot of things, and they just know that it's how we do things.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
This is different. This is not the 'meal of his dreams.' It is a piece of cheese, which his hungry sibling does not have.

If I were eating supper and my family member was hungry and had no food, I would share. How could it be okay not to?

You miss the point. It's not about having food or not...even sharing or not...my point was simply the means by which some enfore sharing is disrespectful.

And, of course it wasn't the "mean of his dreams" - I was making a point to the poster I quoted, trying to make her see it in a different light...


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Well, but IMO the example you are showing is that they do not have to share, right?

You're right. They don't have to share. *But* we do talk about others' feelings, the joys of giving and sharing, we model sharing and generosity, etc. They don't have to share, but most of the time they *want* to share. I believe values are taught by example and guidance. You could force your child to share but what are you teaching them?


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I'm not saying it doesn't happen, and that your children aren't as decent as the next kid, but it's just so outside the realm of my own imagination. I can't even conceive of it really.

I gotta tell you, I didn't believe it could *really* work, either...I've been a big "Get off your butt" parent, which worked well when he was younger...but started backfiring as he got to be about 2-1/2, so I had to switch tracks. Over the past year I've found the less I try to _compel_ DS to act the way I'd like him to act and the more I just set up, explain, and facilitate the consistent expectations, and model them, the more likely he is to do what I ask. Sometimes I do still wind up "making" him do things, but for the most part he's remarkably cooperative, generous, and gentle for an almost 3 yo. I've let go of a lot of things, and it's actually gotten a lot more cooperative around here.

Case in point: I forgot to close the gate to our attic stairs at lunchtime (the stairs are fairly steep and narrow, and the room below not DS-proofed, so we keep the gate closed). DS was eating and noticed it, and went over, looked at me and smiled, and said, "I going downstairs!". A year ago, I would have jumped up and gone over to get him off the steps saying, "Not by yourself, buddy". Today, I said, "I'm not comfortable with you going downstairs by yourself. I'm not going to come get you, though. Please come back up." and went back to working. He stood for a minute on the first step down, then came back up, closed the gate, and sat back down and ate. I thanked him for coming back up and closing the gate.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
You miss the point. It's not about having food or not...even sharing or not...my point was simply the means by which some enfore sharing is disrespectful.

And, of course it wasn't the "mean of his dreams" - I was making a point to the poster I quoted, trying to make her see it in a different light...

Oh yeah. Well I agree with you that the ways some people enforce sharing can be very disrespectful. I am not disputing that.

But your analogy is not an accurate one. Firstly, I wouldn't think you would sit down to eat a whole meal without asking your spouse if they were hungry, and offering to share?

This is where adults and children demonstrate empathy differently. My kiddo wouldn't think to do that, necessarily. Which is fine, she is a kid. But that's where I help her.

I would feel absolutely okay with waiting for her to notice her sibling was crying for some, and deciding to share on her own. If it became clear this was not her plan, I would let her know she was expected to share. If she did not share, I would take the cheese, give some to the other child, and say something like, "In our family, we share."


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnysideup* 
I believe values are taught by example and guidance. You could force your child to share but what are you teaching them?

See, I believe that *only* example (that is, sharing with them but not expecting/guiding them to share with others) can teach the child that it is *all* about them and their feelings are more important than other people.

And I know children like this, and I think it is exacerbated in situations where mama acts like a martyr with no feelings or needs. That has been my observation based on IRL experience.

I believe in example, absolutely. I would not expect of my child a behaviour toward others that I don't expect others (including myself) to demonstrate toward her. But likewise I do not allow my child to behave in selfish ways toward others, while behaving unselfishly toward her.

I see that as unbalanced.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
You miss the point. It's not about having food or not...even sharing or not...my point was simply the means by which some enfore sharing is disrespectful.

And, of course it wasn't the "mean of his dreams" - I was making a point to the poster I quoted, trying to make her see it in a different light...

I understand what you're saying, but really, it was just a piece of cheese. I don't make blanket rules, I'm not saying I enforce sharing EVERY time; in this particular situation, with a piece of cheese fro ma deli clerk, I would. It's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, and part of what I'm trying to teach my children is perspective. As I said later in the post, I would not expect them to share a gift, and if it was in fact the meal of his dreams, I wouldn't make him share.

I really take situations on a case by case basis, and apply problem solving to them individually. In this particular cheese scenario, I wouldn't have a problem enforcing sharing. It ransk really low on my "issue" radar. And I want to teach my child that it shoudl rank pretty low on theirs, too. It's important to me to teach my children to not sweat the small stuff, because I know several people in real life who get their hackles about everything, perceiving injustice in situations where it's just not there, and just not important in the grand scheme.

Sooooo, hope that explains my viewpoint a little better.


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## Attila the Honey (Mar 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
This is different. This is not the 'meal of his dreams.' It is a piece of cheese, which his hungry sibling does not have.

If I were eating supper and my family member was hungry and had no food, I would share. How could it be okay not to?

I agree completely with this. I can't imagine sitting down and eating the 'meal of my dreams' while my hungry dh watched and salivated. I think a child (or adult!) that would do that needs a heads up. A kind and gentle heads up, of course, but definitely a heads up.

I don't think the OP handled it badly. I would have said what someone said earlier, "Hey, looks like we have two hungry kids and one piece of cheese - do you want to split it in half, dc1, or do you need me to help?" If dc complained that he was hungry and wanted the whole thing I'd say something like, "how about you both eat the cheese and if you still need a snack we will find something for the both of you." Even if I had to buy more cheese, I'd still be sure dc shared the first piece.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

"Just a peice of cheese" to YOU. Could be the WORLD to a child, at that moment. Worth reflecting on.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Ok, folks, the OP is IN THE GROCERY STORE!! I imagine that there is _some way_ to get another piece of cheese.







: One can even *pay* for the cheese before dd eats the cheese, or cookies, or crackers, or cake, or donut, or apple, or banana, or carrots, or candy, or marshmallows, or water, or juice or or or or or...whatever dd wants. *Sharing* isn't the issue, the underlying need is for something fun, extra, snacky to consume, it appears. (I agree with intercepting food before it is handed to children by strangers, in general also.)

There are many possibilities that do not include sharing the cheese.

Pat


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Attila the Honey* 
"Hey, looks like we have two hungry kids and one piece of cheese - do you want to split it in half, dc1, or do you need me to help?" If dc complained that he was hungry and wanted the whole thing I'd say something like, "how about you both eat the cheese and if you still need a snack we will find something for the both of you." Even if I had to buy more cheese, I'd still be sure dc shared the first piece.

I really like this.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
"Just a peice of cheese" to YOU. Could be the WORLD to a child, at that moment. Worth reflecting on.

Agreed. But as I said, I'm trying to teach perspective...so empathizing, and talking and discussing would come in. And then helping him move on. I do note that I said I would not just rip the cheese out of his hands, I would talk to him about it, first.

While I wholeheartedly embrace validating all of a child's feelings and emotions, I think that sometimes it can be taken to an extreme, and that being able to get over disappointments and learning perspective is important. It's clear that this is the point on which we disagree, and will likely have to agree to disagree.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

The meal scenario was meant to show that is is no more OK to rip a meal away from someone as it is the peice of cheese. In both cases permission was not gotten & the person having the food was not given final say. It is really no different...just portion wise.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
Ok, folks, the OP is IN THE GROCERY STORE!! I imagine that there is _some way_ to get another piece of cheese.







: One can even *pay* for the cheese before dd eats the cheese, or cookies, or crackers, or cake, or donut, or apple, or banana, or carrots, or candy, or marshmallows, or water, or juice or or or or or...whatever dd wants. *Sharing* isn't the issue, the underlying need is for something fun, extra, snacky to consume, it appears. (I agree with intercepting food before it is handed to children by strangers, in general also.)

But this is crazy, IMO. The OP is in the grocery store. Exactly. Trying to grocery shop! Talk about letting the kiddo take over... you don't want to share with your crying sibling, so mama is going to curtail her whole plan to find another snack for the little one, lug both kids thru the checkout with one screaming and the other gleefully eating his cheese. Because mama doesn't want to be 'ungentle' by removing the cheese and ripping a piece off?

Nuts! I would go absolutely freaking nuts if I expected that of myself in my parenting. And I would feel like my kid would be learning that they ruled me and made the rules.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
.)

There are many possibilities that do not include sharing the cheese.

Pat

ITA, you're right. I got caught up focusing on the "imagine I couldn't get another piece of cheese" part, and saying that I would enforce the cheese sharing, as gently as possible.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
Ok, folks, the OP is IN THE GROCERY STORE!! I imagine that there is _some way_ to get another piece of cheese.







: One can even *pay* for the cheese before dd eats the cheese, or cookies, or crackers, or cake, or donut, or apple, or banana, or carrots, or candy, or marshmallows, or water, or juice or or or or or...whatever dd wants. *Sharing* isn't the issue, the underlying need is for something fun, extra, snacky to consume, it appears. (I agree with intercepting food before it is handed to children by strangers, in general also.)

There are many possibilities that do not include sharing the cheese.

Pat

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner!
Forced sharing is not only not the way to go, it's really unnecassary!


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
The meal scenario was meant to show that is is no more OK to rip a meal away from someone as it is the peice of cheese. In both cases permission was not gotten & the person having the food was not given final say. It is really no different...just portion wise.









Yeah, that's where our disconnect between us is - I do see it as really different, moreso than just portion wise.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I just really wouldn't be okay with my child making decisions that upset people (sibling) and inconvenience people (mama) to such a great degree. I think it is just fine for mama to step in and have a little backbone in some situations.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I just really wouldn't be okay with my child making decisions that upset people (sibling) and inconvenience people (mama) to such a great degree. I think it is just fine for mama to step in and have a little backbone in some situations.

But why is it OK for mama to make a decision that upsets the child? How is it different?


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
But this is crazy, IMO. The OP is in the grocery store. Exactly. Trying to grocery shop! Talk about letting the kiddo take over... you don't want to share with your crying sibling, so mama is going to curtail her whole plan to find another snack for the little one, lug both kids thru the checkout with one screaming and the other gleefully eating his cheese. Because mama doesn't want to be 'ungentle' by removing the cheese and ripping a piece off?

Wow- you make it sound so much more difficult than walking down a certain aisle and picking up a box an opening it! lol


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
But why is it OK for mama to make a decision that upsets the child? How is it different?

I da mama. That is the difference.

Mamas are responsible for balancing all the needs of the family. Including our own. Mamas are older, wiser, and we wipe their bums and clean up their vomit. We are their guides, their protectors. We need to teach them good values, make sure nobody in the family is on the receiving end of unnecessary suffering or unfairness, keep ourselves sane, and get some supper bought without getting sucked into a tear-your-hair-out public drama at the hands of a preschooler.

That is the difference.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
Wow- you make it sound so much more difficult than walking down a certain aisle and picking up a box an opening it! lol









Well it is different. One child is tantrumming, the other child refusing. Mama doesn't want to traumatize anyone. So I'm gonna go out of my way to find a snack. Pay for said snack, or rip it open without paying for it in the middle of the grocery store. It always takes 5 minutes minimum to go thru the check out lines.







:

I'd be like, "Dude. You are sharing the cheese." End of drama.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
But this is crazy, IMO. The OP is in the grocery store. Exactly. Trying to grocery shop! Talk about letting the kiddo take over... you don't want to share with your crying sibling, so mama is going to curtail her whole plan to find another snack for the little one, lug both kids thru the checkout with one screaming and the other gleefully eating his cheese. Because mama doesn't want to be 'ungentle' by removing the cheese and ripping a piece off?

Nuts! I would go absolutely freaking nuts if I expected that of myself in my parenting. *And I would feel like my kid would be learning that they ruled me and made the rules.*

I'm picturing my grocery store. They have the snacks right accross from the deli, so it'd be easy to give the sibling a cracker or two. Not a big deal at all. I guess I would give my child the benefit of good intentions--if they don't want to share they must be really hungry.

When you worry about showing "who makes the rules" it becomes a power and control issue.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I da mama. That is the difference.

Mamas are responsible for balancing all the needs of the family. Including our own. Mamas are older, wiser, and we wipe their bums and clean up their vomit. We are their guides, their protectors. We need to teach them good values, make sure nobody in the family is on the receiving end of unnecessary suffering or unfairness, keep ourselves sane, and get some supper bought without getting sucked into a tear-your-hair-out public drama at the hands of a preschooler.

That is the difference.

thismama~ I hope we don't become "un-friends" over this thread, as I really do like you. But, honestly, I cannot believe you just said that.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
thismama~ I hope we don't become "un-friends" over this thread, as I really do like you. But, honestly, I cannot believe you just said that.









I like you too.

I don't see how what I've said is so crazy tho.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I da mama. That is the difference.

Mamas are responsible for balancing all the needs of the family. Including our own. Mamas are older, wiser, and we wipe their bums and clean up their vomit. We are their guides, their protectors. We need to teach them good values, make sure nobody in the family is on the receiving end of unnecessary suffering or unfairness, keep ourselves sane, and get some supper bought without getting sucked into a tear-your-hair-out public drama at the hands of a preschooler.

That is the difference.

Wow! Your description of parenting a preschooler sounds very draining. We find the partnership approach is so much easier.

Pat


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
Wow! Your description of parenting a preschooler sounds very draining. We find the partnership approach is so much easier.

Pat

Well it sure can be draining, especially if you get caught up in a million little dramas like this one. Is how I see it.









I don't get how seeing relationships with our children as full-on partnerships is accurate. So, like do you pay the rent and the toddler does the utilities and groceries? You work days, they work nights?

It is not a partnership. It is a parent-child relationship.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
Wow! Your description of parenting a preschooler sounds very draining. We find the partnership approach is so much easier.

Pat

You know, I feel like I'm stuck somewhere in the middle - we're way more partnership than we were before, and it's great, but I think my basic philosophy about children and their development d my own experience with my child) prevents me from being a complete partnership....it feels so weird to be in the place I'm in, because I don't quite seem to completely agree with either "side" in this kind of discussion ...and I feel weird being able to agree with both sides at the same time.

Just a random thought from me out to cyberspace.....


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I like you too.

I don't see how what I've said is so crazy tho.









Well, to be fair, I just reread it & it wasn't as bad as the 1st time, LOL, originally I read it as "I wipe your butt - so I own you" which, clearly, you didn't mean. For that, I apologize.

But, yeah, as wuwei said - trying to be their partner as opposed to a "higher up" will always get better results. I mean, you say it's your job to balance everyone's needs...but you seemingly have little regard for the child who just had something taken with no say in the matter.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

thismama,

By that line of thinking DH & I are not partners either then, he earns the money & pays all bills. Is he the "boss" then?

Yes, it is a parent-child relationship...but can't you both STILL be equals? Noone in the family unit should be more or less than another member.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Well it sure can be draining, especially if you get caught up in a million little dramas like this one. Is how I see it.









I don't get how seeing relationships with our children as full-on partnerships is accurate. So, like do you pay the rent and the toddler does the utilities and groceries? You work days, they work nights?

It is not a partnership. It is a parent-child relationship.

No, I wanted to have a baby for a long time and was 38 when I got pregnant and I had a hard time conceiving and ds adds so much joy to our life that I guess the extra trips through the checkout and longer time in the grocery store just don't seem like drama to me. Dh does a million little things for me and I for him too. We see these as being in relationship; and giving to each other ADDS joy to our own life.

But, as a partnership, I mean that no one is the boss over another person. We each discuss our feelings and needs and work together to find solutions where everyone is satisfied. That just is easier than struggling over every little thing, imo.

Pat


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
Well, to be fair, I just reread it & it wasn't as bad as the 1st time, LOL, originally I read it as "I wipe your butt - so I own you" which, clearly, you didn't mean.









No, I'm not all hardcore like that. I go in for working with my child, and then there is a limit, kwim?

Like, we were just at Chapters today, in a hurry. I told her that we could play with the toys, but when our friend was done, we had to go.

So, she was spreading out the Dora videos







, and our friend came up.

I said, "Okay, time to go!"

Her: "No, I'm not ready yet!"

Me: "Okay, should I count to ten?"

Her: "No! Thirty!"

So I count to 30, nice and slow.

Her: "No! I didn't mean 30 like that! You have to try again!"

Me: "Nah, dude. We gotta go."

Her: Does the funky chicken on the floor.

Me: "I'm gonna pick you up now buddy, coz we hafta go."

So, I pick her up and head for the door. She pulls it together in a few minutes, and gets into a game of trying to find our friend.

I try for the balance. But I do believe in the mama authority and the power to make some decisions.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 

Yes, it is a parent-child relationship...but can't you both STILL be equals? Noone in the family unit should be more or less than another member.

I know I'm not in on your personal convo with thismama







, but here is where my disconnect comes in. I don't see my children as "less" than me and DH. I DO, however, see them as less *capable* (by merit of their lack of life experience and their level of brain development) of understanding some things, of thinking as abstractly, and of feeling the empathy and impulse control (they're still both under 3) needed to be able to participate equally in problem solving for all situations.

So, that's why I'm unable to completely dive into the 100% partnership dynamic with my children.

Again, just anotehr random thought to cyberspace..I htink I'm working out a lot of things for myself on this thread!


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

I think children are much wiser than we could ever hope to be. Their innate wisdom isn't scewed like ours.

That said, thismama - we were in Booksamillion like a week ago & that's how it played out with my 4 YO. "I am PLAYING with THOMAS and the TRAINS right now!"







: Boy, did I have my work cut out for me that day...


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:

*Critique this scenario, please*

Quote:

At the grocery store today, DS (4) got a piece of cheese from the deli lady. DD (1.5) wanted some too. I guess I could have asked for another piece, but I didn't.
If it were me, I'd have simply asked for another piece of cheese. Knowing my dc the way I do, requesting another piece so that everyone could have their own would be the most effective way to ensure my cartriders were happy. Happy cartriders, happy mama. It's all good







Of course, we don't eat dairy, so this whole cheese scenario is moot
















I don't, at least for most mamas I know around here, believe it's a matter of not having a backbone---just simply different priorities, needs and paradigms.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
I think children are much wiser than we could ever hope to be. Their innate wisdom isn't scewed like ours.

I think there's wisdom, and then there's:
I want to go to the playground (which is not within walking distance)
But I don't want to get in the car
But I want to go to the playground
But I don't want to get in the car
No, I don't want to play in the back yard instead
No, I don't want to take a walk instead
No, I don't want to do anything else, I want to go to the playground.
But I don't want to get in the car.

So, I put him in the car. He has a great time at the park, and forgets he DID NOT want to be in the car 5 minutes before.

Maybe it's just my kid.







:


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia* 
I don't, at least for most mamas I know around here, believe it's a matter of not having a backbone---just simply different priorities, needs and paradigms.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
No, I wanted to have a baby for a long time and was 38 when I got pregnant and I had a hard time conceiving and ds adds so much joy to our life that I guess the extra trips through the checkout and longer time in the grocery store just don't seem like drama to me.

See, I wanted to have a baby for a long time too. And, still some things seem like unnecessary drama to me. So I take what I perceive as the easiest, most straightforward route outta those things as I can, while feeling like I am respecting my child and myself.

Quote:

But, as a partnership, I mean that no one is the boss over another person. We each discuss our feelings and needs and work together to find solutions where everyone is satisfied. That just is easier than struggling over every little thing, imo.
I aim for discussion and working together. But I don't find it always possible. She is *3*. So... if it comes down to it, I have the authority. I'm comfortable with that, it is what seems 'easier' to me. If I can find a consensual way outta things, I take it. Often I can't.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
I think children are much wiser than we could ever hope to be. Their innate wisdom isn't scewed like ours.

See, I think this is a romanticised view of children, that can really give them more power than they need or want, or is good for them. I am the mama. My child is not my guide. I mean, in some deep ways I would say yes she is my guide, but in the context of the fact that I am *her* guide. Like, the teacher may learn from the student, but the teacher is the teacher. Kwim?

Quote:

That said, thismama - we were in Booksamillion like a week ago & that's how it played out with my 4 YO. "I am PLAYING with THOMAS and the TRAINS right now!"







: Boy, did I have my work cut out for me that day...








Yeah, now that sounds like my reality a lot of the time.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia* 
If it were me, I'd have simply asked for another piece of cheese.

I might well do this too. If the worker was still right there, if s/he seemed open to the request, if it wouldn't have been a big deal (hunt her down, interrupt another customer, ask for something that is already put away). But I wouldn't feel like I *had* to do this, had to go out of my way, to avoid upsetting my child who wouldn't share. If I did it, it would be out of consideration for their feelings and wanting to make life easier for everyone. If it was an easy option for me.

Otherwise, share!


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 

Maybe it's just my kid.







:

















That's what I think a lot in these conversations. We should get our kidlets together! Pair of freaks.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
I think there's wisdom, and then there's:
I want to go to the playground (which is not within walking distance)
But I don't want to get in the car
But I want to go to the playground
But I don't want to get in the car
No, I don't want to play in the back yard instead
No, I don't want to take a walk instead
No, I don't want to do anything else, I want to go to the playground.
But I don't want to get in the car.

So, I put him in the car. He has a great time at the park, and forgets he DID NOT want to be in the car 5 minutes before.

Maybe it's just my kid.







:










And mine.









I think I understand how you feel. I am also feeling like I am somewhere in the middle.







But if I had to choose, I think Thismama`s posts feel more right to me.


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

I think you handled it well, OP. And I agree with everything thismama said.


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## Kylix (May 3, 2002)

I haven't read the whole thread but just reading the first couple pages, it brought up a thought I have had for the past couple years.

One generalization I have noticed (and I realize there are exceptions) is that I have noticed that parents who are very capitalistic politically expect their children to share whereas parents who are more socialistic in nature tell their children they do not have to share. It kind of doesn't make sense to me.

Anyone else notice this?

Kylix


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Well, I am a laissez faire capitalist and don't expect sharing; but we live consensually.

Pat


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kylix* 
I haven't read the whole thread but just reading the first couple pages, it brought up a thought I have had for the past couple years.

One generalization I have noticed (and I realize there are exceptions) is that I have noticed that parents who are very capitalistic politically expect their children to share whereas parents who are more socialistic in nature tell their children they do not have to share. It kind of doesn't make sense to me.

Anyone else notice this?

Kylix

I'm a socialist, and I try to foster sharing.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
I'm a socialist, and I try to foster sharing.

Me too. That's an interesting observation, tho, Kylix.


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## mumto2 (Apr 30, 2005)

Thismama - you are sensible. I agree with everythng you have said.

The issue isn't really about the cheese imo. In our family, it just does not happen that one person has a 'windfall', particularly a consumable windfall, and that person will enjoy it without sharing with the others.

I cannot fathom a situation where it would be OK in our family for one child to be feeling upset and left out because the other would not share something as trivial as a piece of cheese!! And from the op is sounds as if it were a particularly generous piece.

It just isn't OK for one to have in abundance and one to be without.

My dc are 5 and 8. We have always expected and facilitated sharing, though not always an equal share. They have an extremely close sibling relationship along the lines of 'How can I be happy when my sister is so upset and am able to fix that?"

Now I am all for being gentle, but a firm gentle. I'm not going to leave younger child crying while older child takes all the time he wants to decide if he is going to treat sister with common kindness.

IME, when the expectation for being aware of the needs of all family members is clear, it becomes second nature. When the mighty individual rules, we have all the world wide problems of poverty and third world debt...... but thats a whole 'nother issue.


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## dani76 (Mar 24, 2004)

Has anyone thought about the idea that maybe his sister wasn't hungry? She just wanted what her brother had. Should DS be expected to hand over or share whatever he has just because his sister wants it?

Are we teaching the sister that all she has to do is ask and she receives? Don't both children need to learn that some things belong to us individually?

Just putting a different spin on this.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:

It just isn't OK for one to have in abundance and one to be without.
I believe in an abundant Universe and that there is plenty to share. Therefore, it isn't necessary to force sharing, imo, because there are unlimited possibilities for meeting needs.

Pat


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mumto2* 

IME, when the expectation for being aware of the needs of all family members is clear, it becomes second nature.

ITA with this.

Quote:

When the mighty individual rules, we have all the world wide problems of poverty and third world debt...... but thats a whole 'nother issue.
Yes. This is my problem with some of the approaches here... the strong focus on individualism.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

It just isn't OK for one to have in abundance and one to be without.
There is something here which resonates with me too.

I agree with all of those who have said there is something fundamentally "off" to me when one person is incapable of sharing their abundance with those nearest and dearest to them. I value the ability to share abundance. I want ds to internalize this value. That is important to me as a mother. I do not value the choice to hoard abundance. Would I punish a child for making that choice? No.

But I think there is a difference between approaching these instances as teachable moments, in which I actively work to help my child overcome their internal barrier towards sharing vs. viewing the choice to hoard abundance as intrinsically acceptable.

I saw a movie years ago called "Children of Heaven", about a sister and brother in India who, to spare each other the shame of going shoeless, worked out an elaborate plan to share a single pair of shoes.

When I think about the concept of sharing abundance, I feel like the arguments against sharing abundance are based on a value system somehow different than my own.

The common denominator in terms of GD would be that punishment is not the answer.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
I believe in an abundant Universe and that there is plenty to share. Therefore, it isn't necessary to force sharing, imo, because there are unlimited possibilities for meeting needs.


Well. But if you have one piece of cheese, two hungry kiddos, and a mama who needs to finish the groceries, that theory isn't gonna work, IMO. Or if you have three children, one trainset, and one child who wants ALLA the train cars.

Idealistically, that's a great philosophy. But it's not always that practical, IMO.

I mean, don't you people sometimes lose your







? I can't imagine being willing to go out of my way over every little incident. I timed my kiddo the other day: she had three tantrums inside of five minutes. Didn't want the red shoes on, didn't want the dog to come in the car, the dog was stepping on her backpack.

I would absolutely freaking lose it if I didn't feel like sometimes I could just say, "Enough."


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

I was off giving a final exam to a bunch of unhappy freshman







Do not get me started on how far teaching college strays from my ideals of respectful treatment.

I am wondering if it is because we are talking about cheese that it is hard for us as adults to see how taking it and divying it up without permission is OK. What if the boy had won a $50 gift certificate to Toys R Us? Would he be required to split it 50/50 with sister?

Just a hypothetical to toss into the ring......

Another thought..... Look at the situation. In the end, sister got some. Brother not only had some of his food taken without permission but was also shamed. Does anyone actually think that is a "teaching moment"? Do you think he sat there and thought "Oh yes, mommy is right, sister was sad, I am glad mommy made me share, and I will remember always to do so in the future"? But replay the situation. Mommy asks if he will share. He says no. Mommy asks him to think of solutions to the problem that sister is sad. Or mommy gets another snack for sister. Brother probably still does not leave the situation thinking "oh yes, I shall share forever more". But he does see empathy from his mother to his sister. Respect for his decisions. Problem solving. And a solution that works for everyone. I still do not think this is suppose to be some big lesson. But I see the first scenario as being detrimental to the "goal" of raising a model citizen while scenario two is at the very least neutral and perhaps a rung in the modelling/learning ladder.

I also see a lot on here that it seems like too much trouble to handle the situation respectfully to all parties. I read all of the mechanics of either finding a box of food within reach or perhaps having to hunt the entire store down to find something, stand in line, pay for it, then go back to shopping...... Obviously there is a perception difference in how much effort this really is for the parent. I can say as one person that does do this day in and out with a 3 yo, it is not that hard. It really is not. And it is not even that I have an especially well-behaved child. I spend a lot of time with other kids, many raised very differently than I am raising my dd. Once they see that I will treat them respectfully, our interactions are simple. For some kids, it really does boil down to someone listening when they say the cheese is REALLY important to them.

It might seem like a lot of work to take a child that is normally driven by parentally-imposed consequences to plunge into the world of mutual agreement. But once everyone is used to that dynamic, it is really not that hard or time consuming. I wager to bet, less time consuming than making sure you catch every "wrong" to be sure a consequence is meeted out. But aside from time-consuming (or not), it is pleasant. My days with my dd are good. I enjoy them. Almost the entire day. Every day. There are no struggles. No power plays. No sneaking. No hiding. She has empathy for me and my needs because she has always been shown respect for hers, even when they might seem trivial to an adult like me.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

Does anyone actually think that is a "teaching moment"?
Hi, since I used the term "teachable moment" in the post above yours, I don't know if this refers to me?

I think there are many ways to teach the value of sharing, and to diminish the presence of selfishness, without shaming.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

You people type fast









As I said before, I do not think it is OK to hoard things. I value sharing. Very much so. But if that decision to share is imposed without consent, the child is not internalizing the idea of sharing IMO. Just because the child is not made to share at that one moment does not mean all is lost for that child forever in valuing the principles of sharing.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
Hi, since I used the term "teachable moment" in the post above yours, I don't know if this refers to me?

I think there are many ways to teach the value of sharing, and to diminish the presence of selfishness, without shaming.

No, that was not directed at you, I just type slow. It was actually directs that the OP situation.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

What I am hearing is Mom (an individual) makes "right". What we practice is living in community seeking solutions together.

Pat


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
What I am hearing is Mom (an individual) makes "right". What we practice is living in community seeking solutions together.

Pat

Okay. I get this. In theory, and often in practice.

But, don't you get *tired*? I can only do so much. Sometimes I'm just trying to get the shopping done, kwim? Or, leave the park/beach/children's museum. Or whatever. I don't have the energy or the patience to stop and work thru every little thing.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

What I am hearing is Mom (an individual) makes "right". What we practice is living in community seeking solutions together.
Again, not sure which person you hear that from. This thread is moving fast.

However that was not what I was saying. I think "Sharing makes right". When I communicate that it feels like I am communicating in the same way that I would say "Hitting hurts" or "Playing in the street is dangerous". It is definitely not about me as an individual needing to be right. These are "the basics" of living together, surviving, thriving.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Well. But if you have one piece of cheese, two hungry kiddos, and a mama who needs to finish the groceries, that theory isn't gonna work, IMO. Or if you have three children, one trainset, and one child who wants ALLA the train cars.

Idealistically, that's a great philosophy. But it's not always that practical, IMO.

I mean, don't you people sometimes lose your







? I can't imagine being willing to go out of my way over every little incident. I timed my kiddo the other day: she had three tantrums inside of five minutes. Didn't want the red shoes on, didn't want the dog to come in the car, the dog was stepping on her backpack.

I would absolutely freaking lose it if I didn't feel like sometimes I could just say, "Enough."

Yep, I have lost it a few times. I do get frustrated. I am human. There have been a few times when I have caught myself saying "just put the freaking shoes on!" or "yes you are tired, time to go to bed NOW". I really hate it when something like that happens early in the day because it usually causes the entire day to snowball out of control. I learned pretty early on to "stop, drop, and roll". Sounds funny. But that is what I say in my head. I need to stop being disrespectful, drop whatever annoying thing we are bickering over, and roll the conversation on to what the real issue is (is someone hungry, am I in too big of a hurry, everyone feel well, and MOST OF ALL, does dd feel like I am listening to her?) That is like a "reprogram button". A few times, we actually got our PJs back on, got back in bed, and started the whole day over. On a few of those wayward days, dd has turned into this tantrumming monster that I do not recognize. In fact, I can trace almost every tantrummy day back to some outside pressure of mine that causes me to be short and impatient. Looking at those days, yes I can see how it would seem impossible to try and be cooperative towards each other. Luckily they are rare for me so I know something is off and we can usually correct it before it becomes a whole headache of a day for everyone.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Okay. I get this. In theory, and often in practice.

But, don't you get *tired*? I can only do so much. Sometimes I'm just trying to get the shopping done, kwim? Or, leave the park/beach/children's museum. Or whatever. I don't have the energy or the patience to stop and work thru every little thing.

I'll just quote Yopper, because we have enjoyed the same experience as she: "It might seem like a lot of work to take a child that is normally driven by parentally-imposed consequences to plunge into the world of mutual agreement. But once everyone is used to that dynamic, it is really not that hard or time consuming. I wager to bet, less time consuming than making sure you catch every "wrong" to be sure a consequence is meeted out. But aside from time-consuming (or not), it is pleasant. *My days with my dd are good. I enjoy them. Almost the entire day. Every day. There are no struggles. No power plays. No sneaking. No hiding. She has empathy for me and my needs because she has always been shown respect for hers, even when they might seem trivial to an adult like me."

*I'd say we have on average one or two seeming conflicts _a week_ and we work those out to mutual satisfaction. And I have a sensory seeking, food intolerant, boisterous 5.5 y/o. He is an incredible negotiator and actively participates in creating solutions which meet my/our concerns, objectives, or obstacles, AND his own.

Pat


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 

[/B]I'd say we have on average one or two seeming conflicts _a week_ and we work those out to mutual satisfaction. And I have a sensory seeking, food intolerant, boisterous 5.5 y/o. He is an incredible negotiator and actively participates in creating solutions which meet my/our concerns, objectives, or obstacles, AND his own.

Pat

It is about the same here. 1-2 notable conflicts in which we have to do some real thinking to find a solution. This with a 3 yo that sleeps about 8 hours per 24 hour period MAX, with two working parents that require her to be dragged in situations most people would never attempt (like my office hours or dh's paying photo shoots).


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Signing off until tomorrow. Dd and I need to go to bed


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

On the partnership thing. Dh is my partner. Completely equal. He still chooses to be a pill* sometimes and the best way to handle it is to say "you're being a Pill!" and laugh it off.

Things like "you counted to 30 wrong" are definitely pillish behavior.

*Pill:1. one who behaves in an annoying fashion for the express purpose of entertaining themselves at another's expense. 2. one who pretends to be obstinate to elicit a reaction. 3. one who exhibits joking behavior with an air of seriousness while ignoring the frustration of their companion.

ETA: which are all very "three" things to do. Note also that Pills as pillish as they may be are still loved, just not taken personally.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:

I don't have the energy or the patience to stop and work thru every little thing.
This is one of the things that ds has helped me to learn. By being present, I don't need "patience", just Awareness of what we are experiencing *in that moment*. When I feel tired, rushed, or impatient, it is generally because I am focused on the *next* moments, rather than the present one. Children have a gift for bringing adults back into the present. They live fully in the *now*. When I pause and trust that the now is mine to experience too, some of the pressure to hurry and "Move it!" is released.

This helps me to have peace in the *now*, and that changes our interaction and energy toward cooperation significantly. Then I have the presence of mind to be creative, instead of struggling and thus meeting resistance.

Pat


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Things like "you counted to 30 wrong" are definitely pillish behavior.









Now, in her defence, I got the sense my 3 year old was just buying time at the bookstore. But yeah, I so see what you are saying!


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Okay, Yooper and WuWei, what you both say sounds intriguing. Only a few conflicts per week? Almost entirely enjoyable days with a toddler? I can't quite imagine it! I mean, I *enjoy* my daughter immensely (of course - she is amazing!), but I would say there are usually many, many moments in each day when I do not enjoy what is going on between us.

How do you do this? What do you call this thing? Is this 'consensual living?' And... how do you not go batsh!t crazy?

Like, you want to leave the beach, you climb the hill to the car. You are kind of a physically lazy mama, who definitely does not love climbing. (This happened to me this summer, I brought it up here). Toddler runs *back down* the hill to the water, won't come back when called. What do you do?

Kiddo asks for some expensive-ish kind of food, you get it. They decide they don't want it. You suggest they may want it later, they say no they won't. You cannot eat it yourself. What do you do? (I personally threatened that if she didn't eat the veggie burger, she wasn't getting the apple juice, and gave a little mini-lecture about what expensive means).

You pour the child a cup of milk. They pour it all over the carpet, on purpose. And refuse to help clean it up. What do you do?

I just can't imagine living the way you say you live. I can't imagine my kid acting like your kids act, I can't imagine not going completely off my nut and feeling like my kid controlled me if I had to do a major detour like going off on a cheese hunt coz she wouldn't share with a sibling or friend.

Gimme some insight! How do you keep your sanity?


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

OP here.







Thank you all for a great discussion. You have all given me (and everyone else reading this thread) a lot to think about.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper*
In the end, sister got some. Brother not only had some of his food taken without permission but was also shamed. Does anyone actually think that is a "teaching moment"? Do you think he sat there and thought "Oh yes, mommy is right, sister was sad, I am glad mommy made me share, and I will remember always to do so in the future"? But replay the situation. Mommy asks if he will share. He says no. Mommy asks him to think of solutions to the problem that sister is sad. Or mommy gets another snack for sister. Brother probably still does not leave the situation thinking "oh yes, I shall share forever more". But he does see empathy from his mother to his sister. Respect for his decisions. Problem solving. And a solution that works for everyone. I still do not think this is suppose to be some big lesson. But I see the first scenario as being detrimental to the "goal" of raising a model citizen while scenario two is at the very least neutral and perhaps a rung in the modelling/learning ladder.

This is my problem with it, exactly. I am not above imposing my will on the kids, if I feel it is necessary. But in this particular case, I do not think it was helpful in teaching DS the value of sharing. If anything, it created resentment between all of us.

However, I am torn. One one hand, like thismama said, I am worried that if I don't make DS step outside his own head sometimes, he just won't do it on his own and will become self-centered. Also, I don't see anything wrong with telling him he is being an ass, if he is being one - not in so many words, of course. If I had gotten another piece of cheese or gotten DD another snack, what message would that have sent DS? Yes, I would have been respecting his feelings about not wanting to share the cheese. I also would have been telling him that not wanting to share the cheese is OK, and I'm not sure I want to tell him that. I don't think his not wanting to share the cheese is OK, really.

It's like the Buddhist idea of no possessions. On one hand, I can understand the idea of not being able to truly share something unless you truly possess it. How can one truly possess something if someone else is forcing them to give it up. It's not possible. But, on the other hand, I am uncomfortable with him truly possessing something and choosing not to give it up, especially when his giving it up would really help someone else out. I know this is a little hypocritical, but there it is.

OK, one other thing. This has been a great discussion, and I know I opened myself up to criticism by posting this, and I wanted criticism, even. But this whole "ripping the cheese out of his hand with no warning" thing is a little hurtful.







In conversations like these, I know people tend to polarize the issue, but the whole reason I posted it in the first place was because I felt like there was a lot of gray area to explore and talk about. Clearly if I had ripped the cheese from his hand without warning, that would be wrong, no matter what.

AND, one last thing - Yooper and WuWei, you have both made excellent points and I have learned a lot from both of you. You help us all stay on the path. But I must say, it is a LOT easier to negotiate, discuss, compromise, etc. when you only have one child. It is much harder to meet the needs of two small children. And that is my excuse.


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## 2tadpoles (Aug 8, 2004)

I tend to agree with Thismama. Of course, I've never claimed to be all that gentle. I'm certainly not an authoritarian, either. I guess I'm slightly authoritative. I try to let my kids make as many choices as possible for themselves, but I do "make" them do certain things.

Am I an impatient mama? Definitely. It's something I try to curtail, but I think my time as a military mama reinforced that behavior some. When you're in a job where you can receive disciplinary action for being 30 seconds late for formation, you tend to get impatient with a 4yo who is being a pill for
whatever reason.

Were these children truly _hungry_? Would they have missed the cheese if nobody had offered them any? A lot of the posters on this thread keep mentionoing the "hungry children." I'll bet both kids would have been just fine if nobody had waved cheese under their noses.

If it was the last piece of cheese in the world, I guess I would have made the older child share if I had been in that situation. But since the deli had more cheese, I would have simply asked if the toddler could have a piece. Personally, I really wouldn't care if the deli worker thought I was greedy. By offering one child cheese and ignoring the other, the deli worker created an unpleasant situation.

Or..... I would have just pulled a snack out of my purse or the diaper bag. Do people really take small children on errands without snacks? ::shudders::


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## myjulybabes (Jun 24, 2003)

My critique of the original situation: I'd like to think I'd have been a little more gentle with my words (though I have my moments for sure!), but the end result would have been the same. Yes, I would have forced the sharing. But I would have said something more along the lines of "I know it's really hard to share when you have something so yummy, but it will make your sister really happy, and sharing is what we do in this family. Now, would you like to break off a piece for her, or should I?" I might also have waited a second to see if she was satisfied with the tiny piece he originally offered. If she was, problem solved, even though it may not look fair to us!

I would just really want to validate the child's feelings and let them know it's ok to be upset, even as I was letting them know it was not ok to hoard a treat all to yourself.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *myjulybabes* 
I would just really want to validate the child's feelings and let them know it's ok to be upset, even as I was letting them know it was not ok to hoard a treat all to yourself.

This is a mixed message, to me. How is it OK to be upset about doing something that is obligatory? That seems very disempowering - "I acknowledge your feelings but they have no effect of the outcome of the situation".


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd* 
This is a mixed message, to me. How is it OK to be upset about doing something that is obligatory? That seems very disempowering - "I acknowledge your feelings but they have no effect of the outcome of the situation".

Why not? It is OK not to like certain things but to understand that they must be done.

For example, "I know you don't like having to pick your sister up at school, but we have to do it."


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dani76* 
Has anyone thought about the idea that maybe his sister wasn't hungry? She just wanted what her brother had. Should DS be expected to hand over or share whatever he has just because his sister wants it?

Are we teaching the sister that all she has to do is ask and she receives? Don't both children need to learn that some things belong to us individually?

Just putting a different spin on this.

That's the same kind of reasoning that people use to let babies CIO - they're not really hungry, they don't need to be soothed, etc. They're just doing it for attention, so let them cry and they'll get over it.


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## mumto2 (Apr 30, 2005)

I don't think the issue is if the sister was or wasn't hungry. Or if the brother was or wasn't hungry. The brother had and the sister was without.

IMO, by allowing the brother to have a treat while his younger sister cries because she is without, is condoning his behaviour and encouraging him to ignore the needs of his nearest and dearest. Sibling bonds are the most enduring of any lifetime. There is nothing that compares with that love.

Of course the mother could have sourced another treat for the sister. The message there is that 'someone else' will pay attention to others needs - 'I' don't have to worry myself about anyone else except ME.

If someone will not pay any attention to the needs of their sibling crying beside them, and choose to keep a treat from them, how can that child develop any understanding for the needs of any other person????

It beggars belief that a mother would not facilitate common kindness between SIBLINGS!!!

And to the person who asked if ds had won a voucher to a toy store, would that child have to share?? OF COURSE!!! Not 50/50 - but the expectation is there that In fact my ds found $5 at the beach and bought ice creams for himself and dd. She said it was the best icecream because it was bought with love. Foster sibling relationships - it is a gift to both children.


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## dani76 (Mar 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby* 
That's the same kind of reasoning that people use to let babies CIO - they're not really hungry, they don't need to be soothed, etc. They're just doing it for attention, so let them cry and they'll get over it.

I was in no way advocating letting the sister CIO. I was stating that in the beginning of this thread everyone was so concerned with the little boy keeping the cheese and not sharing with his hungry sister. And what values are we teaching/modeling to the little boy if we don't "make" him share. No one seemed to be concerned with what the little girl was learning.

Maybe she was hungry, if so then get some more cheese. But there is no way that I said or implied that she should cry and "get over it".


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
Why not? It is OK not to like certain things but to understand that they must be done.

For example, "I know you don't like having to pick your sister up at school, but we have to do it."


My thoughts exactly.









"It is totally ok not to enjoy brushing your teeth, but it is something we need to do."

"You have every right to be upset because you couldn`t watch the entire DVD, the problem is if we don`t leave now we will miss our plane."


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2tadpoles* 
Or..... I would have just pulled a snack out of my purse or the diaper bag. Do people really take small children on errands without snacks? ::shudders::

VERY good point!







I always have a bottle of water, a stick of cheese, and some form of grain, even if he JUST ate before we went out the door. I imagine my "stash" will become even larger when DD gets a bit older....


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Taking the cheese would have run up on a couple of things we don't do in our family. We don't snatch. We don't take things from people, especially if they're littler than us. That's a safety thing in our family. I feel like modeling that would not ultimately foster kindness especially between siblings.

I know a year ago when dd2 was 1.5, adults often did not think to offer the same samples/treats to dd2 as dd1, assuming the baby would not want some...or that I would let them know if it was ok for the baby to have some. As I said earlier, dd1 would have asked for one for her sister. If she hadn't I would have felt completely comfortable asking politely for a piece for dd2.

I don't force sharing. I find that my kids share well except with the kid in the neighborhood who has a sense of entitlement to all my kids' outside toys. dd1 doesn't often let him use her stuff.

This is what I don't understand about this conversation is: It's so obvious to our family that we need another piece of cheese in that situation. What's the problem with that course of action? What prevented the OP from feeling comfortable asking?


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## Attila the Honey (Mar 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
Taking the cheese would have run up on a couple of things we don't do in our family. We don't snatch. We don't take things from people, especially if they're littler than us. That's a safety thing in our family. I feel like modeling that would not ultimately foster kindness especially between siblings.


Do you not feel that there is a difference between taking something from someone and 'snatching'? (asking honestly, here) For me, I feel there is a huge difference. We don't snatch things away in our family either, but we do take things. For example, if an older child (theoretical, I only have 1 child but we often do have kids over to play) saw a younger with something dangerous or 'not allowed', taking it away would be completely appropriate, imo. I don't agree that taking something away from someone is inherently unkind, and in that instance I believe the child that refused to share his cheese was the one being unkind and it would be my job as a parent to address that.

I am seriously baffled by the assertion earlier that it is disempowering to be upset about something but still have to do it. I am trying to grok it, but I can't. I am disappointed/upset by about 100 different things a day that I still must do - cleaning the toilet, paying bills, getting the car that is broken down towed, making dinner when I would rather nap, not being able to watch an entire season of Six Feet Under in one sitting... just to name a few.









My dd too - she'd rather not get her fingernails cut, or have her hair washed, or eat brussels sprouts when there is candy less than 10 ft away (







) but she understands at 3 that there are choices that make us unhappy but are better for us. I don't believe for a second that is in any way disempowering.

I do agree that allowing a child to have all the cheese when there is another hungry (or maybe just wanting) child there is fostering selfishness.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Gosh. I am feeling hurt by the assertions on this thread that some of us are fostering selfishness, or not fostering generosity. We do a million things to foster sharing and generosity, in other ways throughout the week that do not involved forcing or grabbing. Things like this are best taught outside the situation. Forced sharing does not count for much, in my book.


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## fly-mom (May 23, 2005)

This is a very interesting discussion!

I have to admit I only have two kids, and the youngest is too young for anything but my milk, so we haven't run up on these types of situations yet.

I tend to agree with the ones who feel it was not the best solution to make him share his cheese. It WAS sort of like a gift, and it was his. I do think it is important to teach sharing, but agree that forcing sharing tends to lead to feelings of resentment. I also do think that people should have the right to have things that are just theirs.

So anyway, we are focusing on one particular incident here. A moment in the grocery store in which ds didn't want to share, and some are acting as if this is the sole chance OP will have to teach her son to share. To the OP, is sharing something that ds has recurring problems with? Maybe it's okay to let this incident go for now and work on sharing in other ways. Are there ways to encourage sharing in other situations, so that next time he might be more receptive to the idea. Maybe get them a bag of small treats and tell them that this is their treat to share. Help them decide how to divide the treats in a way that makes them both happy. Set up, or be on the lookout, for other situations where sharing can be encouraged.

Another solution I thought of for the grocery store incident, I can't remember how old your ds is... but how about if you had HIM go ask the lady for another piece of cheese for his sister (while you wait within eyesight of course). That way HE would be doing something nice for his sister, and sort of sharing in the bounty, without giving up his piece of cheese.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Attila the Honey* 
Do you not feel that there is a difference between taking something from someone and 'snatching'? (asking honestly, here) For me, I feel there is a huge difference. We don't snatch things away in our family either, but we do take things. For example, if an older child (theoretical, I only have 1 child but we often do have kids over to play) saw a younger with something dangerous or 'not allowed', taking it away would be completely appropriate, imo. .

Taking something away from a baby who could hurt themselves might be appropriate, although we just ask first. This most often works. If it's a kid who understands and is not in imminent danger, I'll continue the conversation until I convince the kid that I need the item because it's dangerous. Since I only do this when it's actually dangerous, they believe me.

Cheese in not dangerous. If the 1.5 year old had grabbed the cheese and stuffed it in her mouth, it would not be appropriate. It is also not appropriate for me to do the same thing in her stead. So, yes, I believe grabbing something out of the hand of someone, especially someone smaller than me, to get something they have that I want is snatching. I think modelling that fosters lousy play and stinky behavior. I do not believe that it fosters generousity.

The solution seems so obvious, I don't understand the discussion. Is there a world-wide cheese shortage? When my second got big enough to want the samples too, I accepted that I know had double the number of children...therefore, I needed double the samples.

It took me one or two times of dd2 being on solids to get this. But dd2 is pretty good at letting you know what she needs, so I caught on pretty quick.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

SO much to respond to!

To the OP....I do not think you "forcefully grabbed" the cheese. The situation just got elaborated based on other posters own experiences about what they would have done. Your ds has warning, I am sure you were as gentle as possible in taking it, and I am he has forgotten about the whole thing by now.

To the "you need more than one kid to understand this problem" statement. Also known as the "you are not a real parent until you have 2 or 3 or one over 6 or one under 2 or.......)" argument I was wondering when that one would come up







You are right. I only have one. I probably will always only have one. I could feel the need to justify my right to have an opinion anyway based on all sorts of facts about our particular lives. But I will not bore you. I will just say that the sharing issue has come up in our family despite being a one-child household. And actually, if I am to believe the theories that only children are spoiled and incorrigible, then sharing should be an even BIGGER issue for my dd. Not that I beleive that.... But I believe this discussion goes beyond the actual sharing. It goes back to the basic argument of whether or not one can force a child to share (clean up, say thank you, eat brussel sprouts, etc.....) and whether we believe that it is an approprioate/respectful way to treat children.

Thismama, I understand what you are saying. You are in a place right now where you have to go outside of how you would ideally like to parent many times a day. I really feel this is a cycle. I see this a lot. Actually all of the time. Mostly with people I do not know and have no idea what thier lives are like outside of the time that I observe them when sharing space or candid conversation. What I notice most is an "us and them" attitude. They are used to "doing to" their kids and their kids are used to resisting and they spend much of thier time in this dynamic. I do not go "batsh!t" because this simply does not happen when you take the "doing to" out of the dynamic. I am guessing here, since I have never actually been there. But if we had a relationship where dd was largely motivated by what I imposed on her, I am guessing that it would take some time to break away from that. If I woke up one morning and decided that we were going forth from that moment on without any more "doing to", things would probably be hard for a bit. Not sure how long. Maybe a day, maybe a week, maybe a month. I am a pretty direct person so I would probably sit my dd down and explain what was happening. In my life now, where we are like this every day, it really is not hard. While I typed this, dd came in here and wanted to know if I could help her make a fort. This requires trashing the living room and taking every cushion off of the couch. I have the exams I am grading all over the couch and did not want to disturb them as I know I will be back to work on them in a few minutes. I told dd that. She thought for a second and then asked if I would help her make a little one with just the chair cushions. I am happy with that so I helped her and now I am back typing. We all got what we wanted. That is how it works. 20 times a day.


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## myjulybabes (Jun 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd* 
This is a mixed message, to me. How is it OK to be upset about doing something that is obligatory? That seems very disempowering - "I acknowledge your feelings but they have no effect of the outcome of the situation".


I see what you're saying, but I just see it differently. How many times do we as adults have to do things we don't enjoy, but we do it, because it's right? I don't like changing diapers, I don't like following the speed limit, I really really hate having to be civil to my ILs







. We probably don't get upset enough to throw a tantrum, but we're not 4, either, KWIM?

I just know that as a child, an adult telling me "you don't have the right to feel that way" upset me way more than "you have to share." But all kids are different, so maybe that's just me.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mumto2* 
I don't think the issue is if the sister was or wasn't hungry. Or if the brother was or wasn't hungry. The brother had and the sister was without.

IMO, by allowing the brother to have a treat while his younger sister cries because she is without, is condoning his behaviour and encouraging him to ignore the needs of his nearest and dearest. Sibling bonds are the most enduring of any lifetime. There is nothing that compares with that love.

Of course the mother could have sourced another treat for the sister. The message there is that 'someone else' will pay attention to others needs - 'I' don't have to worry myself about anyone else except ME.

If someone will not pay any attention to the needs of their sibling crying beside them, and choose to keep a treat from them, how can that child develop any understanding for the needs of any other person????

It beggars belief that a mother would not facilitate common kindness between SIBLINGS!!!

And to the person who asked if ds had won a voucher to a toy store, would that child have to share?? OF COURSE!!! Not 50/50 - but the expectation is there that In fact my ds found $5 at the beach and bought ice creams for himself and dd. She said it was the best icecream because it was bought with love. Foster sibling relationships - it is a gift to both children.


I'm pretty sure that most of us would agree that kindness, empathy, and giving are desireable traits.

What we disagree on is what is the best way to teach a child these things. Assuming they need to be "taught." Some things are inherent to human beings, and all parents need to do sometimes is get out of the way.

I don't think forcing a child to share teaches empathy. If anything, it would teach them to hold on tighter, or hide their loot from others.

I grumble to myself when its the United Way drive at work, because there is such pressure to give. I don't feel good about giving; I am more concerned about not looking like a Scrooge in front of my co-workers. But let one of my co-workers fall on hard times, and I will aggressively and joyfully give them all I can spare, and more. Its so different when its a choice.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd*
AND, one last thing - Yooper and WuWei, you have both made excellent points and I have learned a lot from both of you. You help us all stay on the path. But I must say, it is a LOT easier to negotiate, discuss, compromise, etc. when you only have one child. It is much harder to meet the needs of two small children.

I have four children. I find it's easy to take everyone's needs into account, negotiate, discuss, compromise, find mutually agreeable solutions. We cooperate.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
But, don't you get *tired*? I can only do so much. Sometimes I'm just trying to get the shopping done, kwim? Or, leave the park/beach/children's museum. Or whatever. I don't have the energy or the patience to stop and work thru every little thing.

Life is so much easier when kids know you're on their side, when no one is digging their heels in just to show who's boss. It takes less energy because you don't have the power struggles.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
I mean, don't you people sometimes lose your ? I can't imagine being willing to go out of my way over every little incident. I timed my kiddo the other day: she had three tantrums inside of five minutes. Didn't want the red shoes on, didn't want the dog to come in the car, the dog was stepping on her backpack.

This sends up red flags for me--3 tantrums in 5 minutes? These are power struggles.

I do not have to "go out of my way over every little incident," it's _easy_.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I think all of us inevitably spend the same amount of energy, assuming nobody here is actively neglecting their kids!







There is a difference I think, in how and where it is spent. Things go better, I find, when I invest the energy proactively by planning, negotiating, disscussing, being sensitive -- then when I have to use the energy after the fact for dealing with tantrums and power struggles.

Yes though, I loose my cool sometimes.

When I had one child, a lot of people told me I'd change my mind with two kids. I haven't. I am stretched a little thinner, for sure, but we function in much the same way. I won't say its easy. It doesn't seem a lot harder though.

I've also been told that I just happen to have easy kids or that I'll change my mind when they are older.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

Life is so much easier when kids know you're on their side, when no one is digging their heels in just to show who's boss. It takes less energy because you don't have the power struggles.
Yes. This is my experience too.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

The question that seems to be at the root of disagreement is "Why should a person have to share (cheese/water/candy/whatever) at all?".

The people who feel there are reasons a person should share, disagree over how to instill this value.

And they disagree with those who suggest there is no intrinsic value in sharing the cheese/water/candy etc.

Depending on the post I'm losing track of who is on which side of what


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## Attila the Honey (Mar 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
Taking something away from a baby who could hurt themselves might be appropriate, although we just ask first. This most often works. If it's a kid who understands and is not in imminent danger, I'll continue the conversation until I convince the kid that I need the item because it's dangerous. Since I only do this when it's actually dangerous, they believe me.

Cheese in not dangerous. If the 1.5 year old had grabbed the cheese and stuffed it in her mouth, it would not be appropriate. It is also not appropriate for me to do the same thing in her stead. So, yes, I believe grabbing something out of the hand of someone, especially someone smaller than me, to get something they have that I want is snatching. I think modelling that fosters lousy play and stinky behavior. I do not believe that it fosters generousity.

The solution seems so obvious, I don't understand the discussion. Is there a world-wide cheese shortage? When my second got big enough to want the samples too, I accepted that I know had double the number of children...therefore, I needed double the samples.

It took me one or two times of dd2 being on solids to get this. But dd2 is pretty good at letting you know what she needs, so I caught on pretty quick.

I feel this is really degenerating into semantics. I didn't say grabbed, just like I don't think OP said snatched. I used the word take, which to me isn't negative or positive, while 'grabbed' and 'snatched' connotates rudely and abruptly taking something.

I agree with you that it's not ok to grab something away from someone else. i wouldn't do that. I wouldn't yank, snatch, wrench, grapple, snap up, or seize, either.







But I WOULD reach over and calmly take it if I asked for it and it wasn't given.

I realize a piece of cheese isn't dangerous, but note I said I also would take something that is 'not allowed'. If my dd had my valuable antique knick knack from my great great grandmother I'd most likely say, "I am concerned that will get broken if we carry it around, can I have it?" If she didn't give it to me I would reach over and calmly take it from her. I wouldn't yank, I wouldn't yell, I wouldn't do anything more than that and then deal with the fall out in whatever manner I could. ("I know you are really upset, maybe there is something else you can play with?")


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Yes, but what do you do when you have two children with two different needs?

Consensual living appeals to me, but what do you do when two people have opposing desires?


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I have to stop reading this thread, because I'm starting to agree with every post.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
Yes, but what do you do when you have two children with two different needs?

Consensual living appeals to me, but what do you do when two people have opposing desires?

You find a mutually agreeable solution.


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## GoodWillHunter (Mar 14, 2003)

Quote:

"Hey, looks like we have two hungry kids and one piece of cheese - do you want to split it in half, dc1, or do you need me to help?"
excellent suggestion, Atilla.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnysideup* 
You find a mutually agreeable solution.

and what would one be in this case?


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I think if a child "reached over and tore off a piece" of cheese from another child, I would call it snatching. Same if I did it.

In the example here, the cheese was allowed....so I don't understand the other examples. In fact, it was a special part of a trip to the store.

In the case of the antique, I'd guard the antique with my hands and ask for it back, explaining why until I got it. I'd be unwilling to grab it lest I injure the antique. I would also be really irritated..that I was in the situation to begin with...frick frackin antiques!

I don't remove, snatch, steal, plunder, confiscate, appropriate, grab, swipe or otherwise take by force things that belong to my children, unless there is an imminent and serious danger to themselves or others. I have in moments of slow-wittedness on my part. In retrospect, there is always a better way.

Here....just ask for another piece of cheese.

As in, "Oh dd, you'd like one too? Sure! Excuse me, friendly deli worker. Could I have another piece of your delicious cheese for my daughter? Thank you so much!"


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
and what would one be in this case?

Most likely, asking the deli worker for another piece of cheese.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
Yes, but what do you do when you have two children with two different needs?

Consensual living appeals to me, but what do you do when two people have opposing desires?

Everyone is welcome to explore consensual living at the CL tribe, CL web site or CL yahoogroup. We discuss living consensually with children, with our families, and with our community. Toddler issues, sibling issues, partner issues, and in-law issues are common topics, including "leaving the park", toothbrushing, carseats, bedtimes, homework, sweets, tv, safety, chores, medical issues, etc. with a focus on creating win-win solutions. The key issue with seemingly conflicting needs is to identify the underlying needs and create solutions which address those. There are hundreds of examples discussed at the yahoogroup.

Here are the links:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=493985
(The tribe is not as active as the yahoo list.)

http://www.consensual-living.com/
The web site has several articles about Creating the Climate for Consensual Living and "have to" issues.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...guid=140240070
Most discussions about CL are at the yahoogroup. Since we have over 400 members, there are many experiences shared.

Pat


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## Attila the Honey (Mar 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnysideup* 
Most likely, asking the deli worker for another piece of cheese.

I don't really have a problem with that "ask for another piece of cheese" solution, just like I don't have a problem with the 'enforced sharing' solution, both seem fine to me. But, for the sake of argument, what do you do if the deli worker says, "Sorry, cheese is for kids 2 and up only." or "Sorry, one slice per family." or the deli worker goes in the back and doesn't come out for 10 minutes and there is no one to get another slice of cheese from?

I personally wouldn't feel comfortable opening a package in the store before it's paid for (gosh, never know when that ATM card won't swipe.. that would be just my luck!) and I don't see having to pick out a snack and go to the front and wait in line and buy a snack as a mutally agreeable solution. As the mom, that solution would be a serious pain in my butt, and my happiness matters too.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Attila the Honey* 
I don't really have a problem with that "ask for another piece of cheese" solution, just like I don't have a problem with the 'enforced sharing' solution, both seem fine to me. But, for the sake of argument, what do you do if the deli worker says, "Sorry, cheese is for kids 2 and up only." or "Sorry, one slice per family." or the deli worker goes in the back and doesn't come out for 10 minutes and there is no one to get another slice of cheese from?


I wonder the same thnig.

Thanks for te links pat. I joined the yahoo group.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

I think there are many possible mutually agreeable solutions in this situation. There are usually lots of samples available at our grocery store, but I also don't have a problem opening something before I pay for it, or I might have a snack in my purse. I don't really see the point in going through all of the possibilities--there are so many options that may or may not work in any given situation.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

You just remember to ask at the time. If you go to a store with samples it becomes second nature. Also, as I said, dd1 always speaks up for dd2 in these situations.

As for the other times. First, I'd cross that bridge when I come to it. I'd be unlikely to frequent a store that overrode my decisions about what my kids can and can't eat or had no one at the deli counter for 10 minutes at a time.

That scenario sounds like borrowing trouble. What if the roof crashed in before you could get the words out? What if the cheese caught fire?







You have to have enough faith in yourself that you'll keep thinking and requesting until you reach a solution.

I don't id as CL or TCS or anything else. I just live with these people and work to get along.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:

Most likely, asking the deli worker for another piece of cheese.
Thank you!


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## Attila the Honey (Mar 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
You just remember to ask at the time. If you go to a store with samples it becomes second nature. Also, as I said, dd1 always speaks up for dd2 in these situations.

As for the other times. First, I'd cross that bridge when I come to it. I'd be unlikely to frequent a store that overrode my decisions about what my kids can and can't eat or had no one at the deli counter for 10 minutes at a time.

That scenario sounds like borrowing trouble. What if the roof crashed in before you could get the words out? What if the cheese caught fire?







You have to have enough faith in yourself that you'll keep thinking and requesting until you reach a solution.

I don't id as CL or TCS or anything else. I just live with these people and work to get along.









point taken.

But I think it's as conceivable that maybe you couldn't get another piece of cheese as it is to think that a deli worker would see 2 kids and only give one piece! Both scenarios are







to me, and I am honestly curious what would be the thing to do if 2 slices of cheese weren't an option and you didn't believe in 'enforced sharing'.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

ask dd1 if she was willing to share her cheese. if the answer is no and there is no more free cheese, get a package of cheese, bust into it, let the baby eat some and pay for it on the way out.

i've never had a sample-giver begrudge the second child a piece. seems like it kind of defeats the purpose of the sampling. and the kids in our family choose the cheese, so it behooves the sample-giver to interest the kids in their cheese!


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Honestly, I do my very best to avoid taking everyone to the grocery store







:.

The only issue I have with *meeting everyone's needs* and *working toward mutually agreeable solutions* in practice (while I wholeheartedly think it's a fabulous concept in theory) if I were to put myself and my three dc in this situation is that *for us right now* my children each seem to be at ages where they're not so into working things out so everyone's happy







And then someone has to go to the bathroom. Now. Two year old doesn't care that 7 yo wants the whole piece--she wants it NOW, 4 yr. old is crying he wants to get out and walk (and he's not a stay-right-by-mama guy) so that I wait for the deli worker to return to ask for another piece...

Sometimes, it's really hard.

But I love that we can hash it out to pick out the essence of what's perhaps underneath the OP's original concerns







And I also like the idea that we all assume we're doing the very best we can at the moment, and if we're not, we're working on getting the tools to get us there.










**and I'm just talking about right now, this week, at this moment---no way am I going to a grocery store because I have needs, too!


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## Niamh (Jan 17, 2005)

I just read this entire thread.

Now I'm going to go eat some cheese. Which I will share with my daughter if she likes.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Niamh* 
I just read this entire thread.

Now I'm going to go eat some cheese. Which I will share with my daughter if she likes.











Georgia....a trip to the grocery store by myself feels like a vacation! More power to you for figuring out how to do it.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

It's just around now where all of mine are totally happy at home w/their daddy while I run to the grocery store







! Sometimes, I even will read a magazine














t's really weird how naked I feel without my sling on--no one on my hip--or anyone to explain to the cashier the multitude of stains on my shirt







And I eat all the cheese and trashy cookies I want









Ahem. Excuse me. Back on topic


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 









Georgia....a trip to the grocery store by myself feels like a vacation! More power to you for figuring out how to do it.

Actually, I have "dates" (without children) with my IRL mothering friend AT the grocery store. It is better than a vacation or shopping alone.









Pat


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

When ds was younger our local grocery store had free childcare (only for kids between 3-7yrs, similar to IKEA). There was a glass room in one part of the store. A tv screen suspended over each aisle played video from camera's in the playroom. So you could shop and watch your child playing.

Now that was heaven. Ds loved going in there to once a week.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Oh, that is such a fabulous idea







I tend to run into the same mamas at our co-op---and then we end up staying a half hour longer in the store than I intended chatting in the produce aisle---I might was well make it official actually plan it w/them!

I'm really new to this whole going-out-without-little-ones thing. Never thought I'd get to this strange new place. Might as well hang out


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Yeah, that thing I said about it being disempowering to acknowledge someone's sadness/anger about something and then tell them they have to do it anyway - that was stupid. I think what I meant was more along the lines of, acknowledging someone's sadness/anger about something and then *making* them do it. But still, the thing that is disempowering about it is the "making them do it" part, not the "acknowledging their feelings" part. So, never mind.








Sometimes I type first and think later.

Yooper - I never wanted to imply that your opinion doesn't count or you're "not a real mother". I was mother to one child for almost 3 years and it sure felt like mothering to me. All I meant was that it's harder, logistically, to coordinate multiple kids. It's probably harder to get 6 kids on the same page than 2 kids - it doesn't mean I'm less of a mother than the 6 kids lady.

Last thing - about the cheese.







The reason I didn't ask the deli worker for another piece of cheese is because I felt like that would have seemed greedy. It really was a very big piece she gave DS - maybe she intended it to be for both kids, I don't know, she didn't say so. I'm not saying that was a great reason, but it is the reason nonetheless. Then, when DS didn't want to share with DD, *that* became the issue I was focused on, not the issue of DD having cheese or not. It was more important that DS share with his sister than I get her more cheese. Again, not saying that's a great reason but that's what happened.

I do tend to focus on individual instances rather than the big picture. So I do get caught up in the mindset of not being able to let anything slide because if I let him keep the cheese now, he'll think he never has to share anything, ever again!







I do not like the idea of forced sharing but sometimes I feel like if I *don't* "enforce" it, it won't be learned. I like modelling behavior, I agree with the principle but I do also think kids need to be actively guided. To me modelling is a passive tool, which there is a place for definitely, but kids also need direct instruction, at least my kids do.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd* 
The reason I didn't ask the deli worker for another piece of cheese is because I felt like that would have seemed greedy. It really was a very big piece she gave DS - maybe she intended it to be for both kids, I don't know, she didn't say so. I'm not saying that was a great reason, but it is the reason nonetheless.

I personally think that is a perfectly good reason not to ask for more cheese.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

Around here direct instruction to share is a sure fire way to invoke absolutely no sharing at all LOL. They do much better if i voice things to them in other ways.... like "Oh hey Kyla, willow seems to really want a piece of your cheese" .... without a directive from me she is almost always happy to offer up the piece of cheese entirely on her own. I always attributed this to the fact that we dont really force sharing and its not forced at her preschool either. If one kid wants to play with a certain toy ALL day they are allowed to.... they quickly seem to learn that its nicer to share because it sucks to want to play with something and not be able to because someone isn't sharing.

Thats not to say that my girls ALWAYS share ... they have their days... but its usually because of other issues going on (hungry, tired, annoyed, etc)... not because they are selfish. I have just never made it to be an issue other than modelling it. Maybe its how its modeled? I always try to use vocalize things..... like if DD came up to me and asked me for something I had I would usually say "sure kyla, I would love to share a piece of my orange with you".

As for the cheese..... if she gave it to you directly i would have automatically just split it into 2 because I know that both of my girls would have wanted it... they love cheese. If she gave it directly to him I would have asked for another one. If she wanted it split she should have given it to you directly... her fault. AFter it was said and I done if DD didnt want to share I would have just offered DD another snack... i usually keep them in my purse when we shop anyway.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I personally think that is a perfectly good reason not to ask for more cheese.

Thanks. I needed to hear that. The problem I have with it is that I feel like I attached more importance to potentially offending a stranger than I did to DS's feelings. I know sometimes that is warranted but I'm not sure it was in this case.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PatchyMama* 
They do much better if i voice things to them in other ways.... like "Oh hey Kyla, willow seems to really want a piece of your cheese" ....

ITA with this and in fact that was the first thing I said to DS. His response was pretty much, "tough luck for her."


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd* 
ITA with this and in fact that was the first thing I said to DS. His response was pretty much, "tough luck for her."

















: well at least he is honest


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Yeah, he's not one for holding back.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I've read a bit of this thread but not all so sorry if this was already brought up.

Our solution to DC not wanting to share is that she shouldn't use (or eat) the thing in front of anyone with whom she doesn't want to share. In the case of the deli cheese I think I probably would have made DC share ~ probably exactly like you did and felt a little bad about it as well. If I wanted her to have the choice to share or not, I might have asked her to wrap it up for later and then gone to find something in the store that both kids could share.

But, what I most likely would have done is gotten the deli worker involved. As DC gets older it helps so much to let her see me clarify rules or intentions of others if I've become the middle man. I probably would have just asked the deli worker if she/he gave the cheese to just DC or for both to share. Most likely DC would be told that it was for both children or your other DC would have also been given a piece. I can't tell you how helpful this has been lately when I'm trying to enforce the rules or expectations of others with DC.

I also wanted to agree with the poster who said that another good choice might be to stay out of the situation if DC was actually sharing&#8230;even if it was a tiny piece. Maybe DC might have continued to give little pieces and it would have become a fun way to share. I must admit this is very difficult for me to do. (I don't have two kids but I work at a coop nursery school and staying out of what I perceive to be an unfair solution is SO, so hard).


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd* 
I like modelling behavior, I agree with the principle but I do also think kids need to be actively guided. To me modelling is a passive tool, which there is a place for definitely, but kids also need direct instruction, at least my kids do.

I agree that kids need more than modeling. I think modeling is a very important part of learning, but people also need guidance and instruction. I wouldn't argue that point. But, I don't think you can teach generosity by forcing it. I don't think children that have been routinely forced to share learn the value of sharing. It just makes for a lot of sibling resentment, ime.

I seems like some posters are suggesting that you either force your kids to share or you let them be selfish jerks. Which seems, to me, directly in opposition with the description of GD in the forum guidlines-- _"Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems."_


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

i read through about 10 initial responses, so maybe what i am going to say was covered later, but what was Maddie's reaction?

we have this situation occur often -- Ada (4.5) has a piece of cheese, and Max (2) wants it. i might say 'Max wants some too', or she might notice it herself, if he 'asks' her himself. then it is likely that Ada will give him a tiny bit. and he will be happy about it, and ask for more. and she will give him a tiny bit again. and again. and againg. and both are happy. she IS sharing. both are having fun. i think she is too young to know that sharing half and half is more 'fair', kwim?


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Yes, that is a great suggestion and next time I will give them more of a chance to sort it out themselves. It's true, he *was* sharing, just not according to my standards. I didn't even think of that at the time.

Well, live and learn - thanks again everyone, for a great discussion.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd* 
Yes, that is a great suggestion and next time I will give them more of a chance to sort it out themselves. It's true, he *was* sharing, just not according to my standards. I didn't even think of that at the time.

Well, live and learn - thanks again everyone, for a great discussion.

Thank you! I have learned a lot from this discussion


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