# A friendly debate?????



## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

I am posting a poll whch will, inevitably, lead to a debate. I am hoping to keep this debate clean and not derogatory.

CIO.....From what I understand, this is a fundamental (at least for me and my family) part of AP Parenting. It ranks right up there with breastfeeding on demand. My 14 week old baby never cries unconsoled. It physically hurts me to hear him cry, especially if I cannot determine the cause. I have watched my 8 year old break out into tears because Kaeleb was crying and we couldn't figure out why. I can see that it tears at my DH when our son is upset. So here is my question...how many of the "AP" parents here actually do let their children CIO and for what reasons?


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Well, I answered sometimes, but not for sleeping purposes. If we're home I never let ds cry unconsoled, although he certainly cries. He often loses it in the car, however. I have found that it's just quicker in the long run to get home ASAP rather than stop and take him out of his carseat, because he will just start howling again when I have to put him back in it. If dh is with us I always sit in the back seat to entertain him, but even so he just doesn't like the car much.

I have never tried CIO for sleep training purposes. I know my son - he would not stop crying after 5 or 10 minutes. There's no way it would work for us, even if I were willing to try.


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## JesseMomme (Apr 6, 2002)

3


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## Alexander (Nov 22, 2001)

CIO (abandoned) is bad for the mental, emotional and spiritual health of the child.

Simply, it stunts the sensitivity and development of these vital human qualities.

a


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## queen620 (Jun 9, 2002)

Okay I will answer. My first ds now 37mo was forced to CIO














I know horrible, horrible horrible. Anyway the first and only book we got when we got home from our terrible week in the hospital was "Babywise" My son slept through the night at six weeks, but oh we are still paying for the trauma that we caused and he is just now at three opening up to me. Anyway that wasn't the point of thesurvey.

I have used CIO a few times with my ds#223mo. Mostly it is when it is bedtime and I have had enough and am about to snap. (My kids are 14mo apart and always fighting or into something, and dh works 70+hours so I am by myslef most of the time.) Usually my son will go to sleep in 10minutes or less. I don't really associate it with CIO b/c he cries/whines for several five or less minutes most nights. My older son almost never cries unless he forgets his "special toy/friend" of the day. And then he stops when the item has been delivered.

I never felt right about CIO, but was way to depressed to get away from the BOOK and trust myself as a mom. Thankfully with my second child a friend just dropped off a few books she felt were helpful. The Baby Book and MOthering. Slowly but surely she won me over, and my second son mever cried it out unless I was totally about to loose it...like maybe once every other month....he was colicky for SIX LONG months, so sometimes I just had to let him cry while I took a few minutes to myself. As it was he cried whether being held or not. Well I need to go my eyes are glazing over and I am rambling on and on and on.......................


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## papachee (Feb 18, 2003)

I've thought about this one a fair bit. I'm wondering about definitions.

We never leave ds alone to cry it out.

BUT if he is upset that we have not let him do something he will cry and does not like to be consoled by us immediately.
We offer to cuddle him etc. but if he is angry he does not want and will reject any cuddling. In this instance we let him cry it out, until he wants consoling from us. Then we cuddle and make it better. We try not to give in just to stop him crying.

Is that letting him cry it out? Sometime it feels like it. If so I'll stand up for it.


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## Alexander (Nov 22, 2001)

No. That is definately NOT CIO.

That is respecting the childs feelings of wishing to handle himself on his own for a moment.

a


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

I picked sometimes.

I will tell you kid by kid and you will see why I chose it.

Elizabeth, BF, cosleep, sling carried, and not allowed to CIO but once. 9m check up -- Walked in sleep deprived, crying, and ready to commit myself. Had serious ppd no one was willing to treat because I was breastfeeding. Asked doctor for some help. My child was sleeping 6hrs top per day, no naps at all. She suggested Ferberizing and explained it to me. So that night I nursed her and put her in her crib and the crying began. We went in several times over a 45 minute period of time, I finally left the house, came back, she was asleep. The next morning she woke up and I learned that she had threw up and slept in it all night. I never did it again and back in our bed she went.

Then comes Dylan four years later. We adopted Dylan and I thought it was paramount to our bonding that I do everything AP. Dylan was put in my life to teach me lessons about judgement and parenting for sure. He hated cosleeping. He hated the sling. He didnt like breastfeeding. He cried all the time. And I mean ALL the time. Six hours straight sometimes. I had the police called on me for abuse. I had people talk about me behind my back because evidently I was doing something wrong because my baby cried all the time. Dylan loved the crib and found comfort under a fleece blanket over his body and his head pointing north, that is when we could get him to sleep. Depressed, sleep deprived and desperate I tried CIO. What I was doing sure wasnt working. The first night, I got him ready for bed, gave him a bottle, laid him in his crib, in his room, just like he liked everything to be and he began to cry. I left the room, shut the door and sat in the hall and listened while watching the clock. Four minutes later he was out like a light. And it was this way until he was nearly two. Crying everynight for a few minutes before drifting to sleep. When I spoke to a developmental pediatrician, we discovered Dylan had SID along with FAS/FAE (something we knew all along) and that holding him all the time actually was painful to him and by allowing Dylan to be who he was, instead of forcing him into my AP box of ideals, was better for Dylan and the family as a whole. There was nothing abusive about it, it didnt create any mistrust or bonding problems. In fact things improved greatly for all members of the family as we all slept through the night.

Now Jack, he has never cried it out. He is easy going, a good sleeper, in or out of our bed. We have some issues with night waking right now but they can be resolved without CIO. Of course Jack is 15m old at this point and there are a lot more options for me to consider.


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## JesseMomme (Apr 6, 2002)

Quote:

Is that letting him cry it out? Sometime it feels like it. If so I'll stand up for it.
I agree w/ Alexander, I dont think that CIO at all. I have to respect my oldest bounderie sometimes or he'll just scream worse! When he's done he's ready for a hug.


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## Alexander (Nov 22, 2001)

OnTheFence

Thanks. I found your post really good. Very interesting.

The part about your child finally finding sleep. It must have been such a relief for you.

As a matter of fact, many children find the moments before sleep tense, and crying is a form of tension relief. DD2 had this too, but crying is not the only way children relieve tension. Laughter can also do it.

We got into the routine of laughter before sleep. Sometimes she'd drop off in mid-laugh! You have to see it to recognise the strong corrolation to crying to sleep.

BTW Could you just tell me what SID and FAS/FAE are.

a


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## cinnamonamon (May 2, 2003)

I am voting "no, never," but I think my definition of cio is maybe looser than others. And my baby doesn't cry much in general & is only 3 1/2 months now, so I cannot - in all fairness - say what I will do if any future children are more high needs. I only know what I *think* I will do.

I used to pick Ian up at first whimper -- ALWAYS. I minimized car time since he hates (hated) his seat. Then one day he was in his carseat (with me in the back with him) and whimpering/fussing. If I had been at home, I would have assumed he needed to nurse. As it was, I couldn't at that moment. So I did what I could - rubbing his cheek, patting him, talking & cooing, etc. This did not help. So I sat back & just waited. Within 5 minutes he had fussed himself to sleep. I learned 2 things - 1: he does not need to nurse to sleep all the time - I just always tried that when he fussed & he fell asleep, & 2: he would probably be developing a healthier sleeping "system" if I did not pick him up or nurse him at first whimper *every time.*

I guess what I am rambling about is something I heard said in another post. There is a difference between fussing & crying. When a baby needs to unwind, they **usually** fuss - not cry. (PLEASE note the use of the word _usually_ !! I am not an expert & there are always exceptions to the rule).

I will quite possibly allow my baby to fuss when I finally attempt to get him to sleep in his crib (if I can ever bear to not have him beside me in bed







, and I will be confident that I know the difference between his fussing & a cry that means he needs something.


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## sozobe (Aug 5, 2002)

queen620's story is part of why I get... impatient... with the tone some anti-CIO* people take. By all means, be anti-Ezzo. By all means, educate whenever possible. But must they so harshly condemn the mothers who often _were doing the best they could with the information they had_?

I am married to a scientist, and am in the field of education. Through both of these prisms I see that the basic building blocks of "truth" change, often. Things that everyone is certain of turn out to be utterly wrong, things that everyone discounted turn out to be completely right. And on and on it goes, with each new study and each new exception to the rule.

I feel completely comfortable in my position to NOT let my child CIO, but I am also aware that there was a great deal of serendipity in the string of events that allowed me to come to that decision. Any number of things could have gotten in the way. My parents let me CIO, a few episodes of "Mad About You" made a big impression on me, pre-pregnancy -- I thought it was just a necessarily evil, one of the heartbreaks of parenting.

I think there are very, very few people who let their children CIO merely because they are mean. I think most of those people think they _need_ to do it. I think they are wrong, and I seek to educate them wherever possible.

*Note, when I say CIO here, I refer to "textbook" CIO, Ezzo et al, not special situations such as what onthefence describes.


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## LisainCalifornia (May 29, 2002)

It is complicated--and each child come hard wired with their own little sleep problems or benefits.

Hugs,
Lisa


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

For the sake of clarity, I want to point out that CIO is not defined by what the baby is doing, but by how the parent of the crying baby views and responds to those cries.

In order to identify CIO, there has to be an *intentional absence* of response from the parent to the baby. The lack of response comes from a belief that crying without response is beneficial for a baby. These are the hallmark of CIO.

Babies cry. Sometimes nothing we do seems to help. Sometimes they don't want to be held and prefer us to be available nearby instead. Sometimes (when driving) we want to help and temporarily that comes in the form of talking or making reassuring noises perhaps, until we can stop the car and pick up the baby. None of this describes CIO. The fact that a baby is crying is not a hallmark of CIO.

You are not using CIO unless you believe your intentional lack of response to your crying baby is good them.

I point this out because CIO is so strongly debated in parenting literature and research, and in every book I have read, CIO is understood in the way I described above. So to have an accurate poll and discussion about CIO, I think we should be very clear what we are talking about. The literature that advocates CIO assumes there is benefit in ignoring a baby's cries. The literature against CIO assumes there is *no* benefit in ignoring a babies cries. That is the way CIO is understood in parenting literature that debates this issue.


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## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)

I'm with heartmama


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Polls never let me vote!

But I vote no, never.

I never think a baby benefits from having their cries ignored.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Wow. Thank you, all of you for making my life easier (lol) and keeping this discussion so civilized. I have loved reading ALL the posts so far...this is great!! Let's keep it this way, huh?


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## irishprincess71 (Mar 22, 2003)

I don't really fit into any of the three categories. I can't say never because we tried CIO twice with DS. Most of our current friends had babies when BabyWise was THE in thing. So they of course pushed it; as did my aunt.

Neither DH or I liked the thought of CIO but there were two times when I became desperate from lack of sleep and wanted badly to fix the situation. The two times we tried CIO were horrible. Within 3 minutes DH and I were fighting with each other as DS cried in the other room. After the second time I realized we needed a different solution.

I realized at 9 1/2 months that DS was nursing back to sleep every time he woke up (4 or 5 times a night). I knew he didn't need to eat but was doing it out of habit. So I quit nursing him. Instead when he woke up DH would rock him back to sleep. Sometimes he would cry even hysterically while DH rocked him. It took 2 nights. Now he only wakes up once a night if at all. We also moved him out of our bed and onto padding on the floor. He sleeps much better that way.

My goal with the next baby is to make sure that the night time feedings don't become a habit. I am perfectly willing to fill and answer the need but not the habit.


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## Alexander (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by heartmama_
*
In order to identify CIO, there has to be an *intentional absence* of response from the parent to the baby. The lack of response comes from a belief that crying without response is beneficial for a baby. These are the hallmark of CIO.

*
I'd like to add that the lack of responce also comes from a lack of care. I am aware that there are people that would rather watch TV or talk on the telephone to their friends. We are all aware of these cases, which is why so many people hate CIO. It is assoiated with neglectful parenting.

I do extend my sympathies to those who, inspite of their very best efforts find themselves ending up at CIO either through exhaustion or desperation.

I shudder to think of the pain some mothers go through, whose children who are left to CIO because their mothers are told "it's for the best dear".

Worse still are those that think that CIO is good for their children! Like "helps them exercise their lungs!" or "Gets their blood flowing!"

Or the worst for me "I can't be there for them all the time. They have to learn that sooner or later, and the sooner the better!".

And they sure do









a


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## saturnine25 (Mar 26, 2002)

Never. I don't think letting a child CIO does anyone any good. We received a lot of comments when dd was a newborn from friends and family insisting we were doing harm by not allowing her to CIO. These are the same people who now can't get over how happy and confident dd is. I'm not saying that not letting her CIO made ALL of the difference, but I believe it has had a positive imapct.


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## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*Wow. Thank you, all of you for making my life easier (lol) and keeping this discussion so civilized. I have loved reading ALL the posts so far...this is great!! Let's keep it this way, huh?*
see, I didn't need that suit afterall!


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## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

What exactly is CIO? My definition of CIO is actully crying. My child fusses, ocassionally, when I can't get to him right away. For example, I don't wear him while I am cooking for fear that he will get burned. I place him in he swing and talk to him while I can't hold him. Sometimes he becomes fussy. Sometimes I am in between preparing dishes and can immediately find out what he needs or wants. Sometimes I am in the middle of pulling something out of the oven and cannot immediately find out what he needs or wants. However, this is not my definition of CIO. When I think of CIO I see a mental picture of a child all alone, screaming their heads off (probably out of fear of being all alone). Whether that child be in a crib or swing or elsewhere. I really don't consider my son fussing (we call it talking, it's kinda a loud unhappy cooing as he is only 3 1/2 months old) CIO.


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## mirlee (Jul 30, 2002)

My answer wasn't there. I have let Sam cry. He has never cried himself to sleep,however, on the advice of a friend and a FORMER Pediatrician when he was about 2 months, we tried to CIO at night. It never worked. He just went into major hysterics never once calming down. We did this three times. Each time we felt horrible.

As a baby he was not terribly fussy. His cries were usually related to hunger or messy diapers. The one thing I did notice was that if he woke up from a nap and I didn't realize it or if I wasn't able to get there in what he felt was a reasonable amount of time , he would get upset. Usually, when I did get to him he was a little stand-offish for a couple of minutes until he was reassured that I was there and that I cared.

As toddler, I will let him cry but only if he is pitching a huge fit that involves screaming and crying. I let him get that out of his system even if it takes 10 minutes. I think at his age much of his crying fits tend to revolve around control issues. I always make sure he is not ill or hurt in any way. This doesn't bother me.

edited to add:

Each child is different. What works for one might not work for the other. A little boy at Sam's daycare will not go to sleep there unless he is placed in his crib and allowed to rock and cry himself to sleep. The caregiver was sad when she realized that all her rocking and snuggling wasn't going to get this little guy to sleep. At home he sleeps very differerntly, I believe with mom and dad, but since mom and dad aren't there, he has developed his own way of going to sleep. When I saw him doing this my first reaction was to go pick him up. The caregiver said that he usually only goes through this for 5 minutes then he is sound asleep.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

I really couldn't vote, as I felt "sometimes" was an overstatement. If there was a "rarely" or "hardly ever", I would have chosen that one.
I tried it a few times with my DD and a few times with my DS, to no avail. Reason being, I was manic depressive/bipolar, and the lack of sleep had my disorder rapidly cycling to the point where I thought my kids were going to be taken away. The only time I had where my child was not literally attached to me was when I would take a bath, and even then I could hear them screaming hysterically in the next room, even though my DH or MIL had them! My Dh and I were also having serious marital issues, and we literally did not have two seconds together - we couldn't even sleep in the same bed, because all of us would keep each other awake all night long!








That being said, I gradually adjusted. My kids are soooo not textbook. And every time I'd try to do CIO with my DD, her immune system would get so depressed that she'd end up getting sick within a day or two. So I gave up. Same with DS - some nights it would work; other nights, it would be like starting from square one, no matter how consistent we were! It just wasn't worth it to me. I figured I'd just grin and bear it.


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## DaisyD (Apr 6, 2003)

I voted sometimes, but I don't CIO for sleeping purposes. You might consider this CIO, I don't know...
Last week she threw what I can only describe as a temper tantrum. I thought she was tired, so I tried nursing-no go, I tried holding her-no go(just kicked and screamed), so I sat beside her on the bed while she sat there and cried. I talked to her calmly and would pick her up her couple of minutes until she stopped pushing me away. Eventually she just stopped crying. I don't know why she was so upset or why I couldn't comfort her, but that was that.
I don't really think it was CIO as that to me is crying for sleep purposes and the child is left alone and "ignored" by the parents. but maybe some will think my view is too limited.


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## aimcar (Apr 17, 2003)

I voted never, but maybe my definition of CIO is too limited? DS has never and will never CIO for sleeping purposes. As an infant his cries were never ignored. As a toddler, there are times when he gets angry and throws tantrums and no amount of redirection will sway him. So I will sit beside him or hold him if he'll let me, and let him cry. I don't consider that CIO because to me, CIO = abondonment and completely ignoring your child's cries.


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## Evergreen (Nov 6, 2002)

I voted 'no' based on my personal definition of cry it out which is when a parent intentionally ignores a crying child. Usually I would consider CIO a horrible practice, then I read Kim's post about Dylan. She was obviously very in tune with his needs (and special needs children are oftten very emotionally different from most babies.) Unfortunatly for Kim, most people who do use CIO abuse it. And they give parents like her a bad rap from the rest of us APers. I had only heard of parents who put their babies in their cribs and let them scream no matter what for hours and hours. Sometimes these poor things would poop in their diapers or even throw up on themselves and the parents wouldnt even know, because they didnt bother to check on the baby. I didnt know how people could do this to babies, then I heard about Ezzo. There is something wrong with experts like him who promothe these methods. I have issues with him, not the parents who practice CIO (unless they REALLY abuse it, naturally.) But I dont let Dylan CIO, never have. If she fusses in her carseat I try and soothe her or pull over. Once, I had food poisoning or a 24 hr bug and did leave her screaming on the bed while I hurled my guts out. It broke my heart, but what else could I do? I do not feel guilty for it, it is over. I think we Ap parents need to realize that sometimes s*it happens, and our kids are going to cry. However, since we do not let them cry on a regular basis or to fit them into our lifestyles (when we should be molding our lifestyles around them) they will benefit from it.


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## Alexander (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Gr8flmom_
*then I heard about Ezzo. There is something wrong with experts like him who promote these methods.*
Darling,

The problem is, that he's not an expert!

a


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## alexa07 (Mar 27, 2003)

I am a believer in allowing a baby to cry in its crib for several minutes (not many, maybe 5) without being comforted as a method of allowing a baby to learn to sleep on its own.

I nursed both of my kids to sleep for the first few months. Then I began to feel that my kids needed and wanted more sleep then they were getting. They were waking up and crying when they were not hungry and were restless and growing more unhappy.

At the same time I did a great deal of researach on sleep. I looked at University Sleep Studies, Pediatiric Sleep Studies and Studies on sleep patterns in different cultures. ( I research for a living and thus have access to a wide variety of materials.)

I felt that in our culture (where we do not go from our parent's bedroom immediately to one we share with a spouse) that it is important to have the skill to fall asleep on one's own.

I also felt that any new sleeping environment is difficult. Many people feel it hard to sleep at first when they have a new bed or even a new pillow or blanket. I expected that my dc's might not like their new sleeping environment, at first. But like one who comes to love a new pillow I thought it was possible that they could come to be comfortable sleeping alone.

I also believed that trying to let them do this at an early age was better. So at a very early age, I let them try to fall asleep on their own, even though they cried. We never let them cry for more than 5 minutes without being comforted and we never let them cry for more than 15 minutes all told any night. They were offered bf'ing anytime they awoke and cried. But after BF'ing were put down to sleep on their own.

Within a few days my kids learned to fall asleep on their own. They woke less to feed and when they did wake up they were clearly hungry unlike before when they would pull on and off seeming restless. And their sleeping was MUCH improved. They slept longer and ate better. They seemed generally happier and calmer.

Once they had learened how to fall asleep on their own, I maintained an "open bed" policy. Any child who felt like they needed us in the middle of the night (because of storms or nightmares or general unease, was welcome to call for us or come to us.)

Now that my daughters are older 6 and 8, they generally sleep alone 95% of the time. They know they are welcome to sleep with us if they feel the need.

I believe that letting my kids learn how to fall asleep on their own was important. I simply know of too many people whose kids do not know how to do this and are miserable from lack of sleep (both the kids and the parents).

Obviously, others feel differently about these issues. Their reading of things is different. But I feel good and confident about my decsion. I did not make it because of "convenience" or to make my child "independant" I did it to give my child what I feel was the best way to obtain a valuable skill.

Please respect my choices, and I will respect yours.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Alexa, good points. I know from experience that I will allow any subsquent babies I may have to fall asleep on their own. When my son - who is now one - was a small infant, he could fall asleep on his own, in part because that's pretty much all they do at that age. Instead of sticking with the pattern that *his body* created, I found myself nursing him at the first sign of a whimper, squirm, or sqeal. I'd nurse him to sleep in my bed, and I'd nurse him at the drop of a hat throughout the night, even though he was able to whimper for maybe five seconds and go right back to sleep







: We got into the habit of this, and now it is virtually impossible for him to go longer than a half hour to an hour at night without needing to nurse. And with a three year old and him to take care of during the day, this serious lack of sleep is screwing with my psyche. My intuition tells me that if I had gotten him used to a sidecar sleeper, or crib, or bassinet, from the beginning, he would have absolutely no problem lying down and going to bed for the night, even if he did wake up a few times to nurse. But since we are right next to each other all night long, and we are both INCREDIBLY light sleepers - he can't even move without me becoming wide awake - we are both very cranky and sleep-deprived most of our days.


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## vein (Mar 7, 2003)

Hearing Gavin cry for any amount of time hurts, so I don't let him CIO.

He has cried, however, a few times in his carseat in the car until we got home. There was no way I could pull over on a crowded freeway, nor was I going to go park somewhere in bad parts of Detroit to get into the back seat to quiet him down. I was in pain each time until we got home, when he was promptly picked up and held. (and smothered in kisses because I felt so bad about it)

I also follow his cues on when he wants to go to sleep. If I tried to make him go to sleep earlier than he wants to, it results in crying, and to me, he's telling me he's not ready to go to sleep. It's sometimes annoying to have 2395725 things to do and a baby who won't go to sleep, but there will be a time when I'll WANT for him to want to spend more time in my lap. Just not worth forcing the issue, IMO.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Alexander_
*OnTheFence

Thanks. I found your post really good. Very interesting.

The part about your child finally finding sleep. It must have been such a relief for you.

As a matter of fact, many children find the moments before sleep tense, and crying is a form of tension relief. DD2 had this too, but crying is not the only way children relieve tension. Laughter can also do it.

We got into the routine of laughter before sleep. Sometimes she'd drop off in mid-laugh! You have to see it to recognise the strong corrolation to crying to sleep.

BTW Could you just tell me what SID and FAS/FAE are.

a*
Yes, it was a relief once Dylan found sleep and we did too. (I got pregnant a few months later...LOL) Something I learned was that I had to pay attention to the cues of my children and if what I was hearing in my heart didnt jive with mothering or dr. sears then I just wasnt going to be as crunchy as I thought I was going to be.

SID is Sensory Integration Disorder and FAS/FAE is Fetal Alcohol Effects and Fetal Alcohol Syndrome.

HAve a great day!


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Alexander_
*Darling,

The problem is, that he's not an expert!

a*
No he isnt and I have had personal communication with him and seen him in action in a forum similar to this. He's an icky man for sure. And I can assure you he would call this a "hen house".

Kim


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

I am vrey anal when it comes to my kids. I have been keeping a sleep diary if my youngest child. Most of his night waking is due to cosleeping with his father and I so over the next several months we will be night weaning and moving him to a crib. I know he isnt getting enough solid sleep in the night and neither are we.


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## ebethmom (Jan 29, 2002)

I have never felt compelled to let my son CIO. I thought that as a family, we didn't believe in letting him "cry it out." What is "out" anyway?? In addition to being philosophically against the practice of CIO, I don't believe that it would work with my son's temperement. I'm afraid that he would hurt himself by thrashing around and banging his head.

He does nurse to sleep at bedtime and naptime. We had a rare night last weekend, and I didn't get home from a job until 3 AM. Ds woke up at about 1 AM, and my husband had a really hard time getting ds back to sleep. He told me that he tried "everything" including a car ride to get ds back to sleep. And then he put him in his crib to let him cry. I'm still really frustrated by my husband's response in this situation. I understand that he was exhausted and angry with me. But I think he took it out on our son.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

My baby is still very young, so it's not fair for me to say, "oh, no, never." I don't want to do it, but I know I would if it was the only thing that helped him sleep. I just think it's better not to if we can avoid it.

Sometimes, when we put him down for a nap, our baby will cry for a few seconds while dh is soothing him to sleep. (He sleeps in a sidecar sleeper, which is great when he is napping or when he goes to bed before we do.) Dh knows he cries emphatically for those seconds. But he doesn't leave the room until the crying has stopped. He just quietly pats the baby or tucks him in, taking his hand away only when he sees ds has gone back to sleep. I do the same thing when I nurse him down.

I can see why some parents leave the room to reduce stimulation when they know the baby will cry for a few seconds or a minute or two. But I like our way of dealing with it better. I hope it will continue to work for us that way so that ds can always feel how much we care for him. When he cries at night of course I just pick him up and put him in bed next to me to nurse. He's still so young that it's nearly always because he's hungry. Usually he doesn't even get to cry, I just wake up when he does because...why? I don't know, I do even when he's in the sidecar and not right next to me.

whooooooo! spooky!









We do nurse him to sleep a lot, but not exclusively.

I really hate it that our baby cries in his car seat and I can't respond immediately. But I don't consider that a case of intentional CIO. Whenever possible, we have an adult sit in the back seat with him to help him keep calm.


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## kofduke (Dec 24, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by captain optimism_
*
Usually he doesn't even get to cry, I just wake up when he does because...why? I don't know, I do even when he's in the sidecar and not right next to me.

whooooooo! spooky!








*
I also wake up a few seconds before Aaron's really awake, and he sleeps in a crib next to my bed. I think it's one of the benefits of sleeping with babe in the room - their REM cycles tend to be in sync with mom's, so you awake from a very light sleep, and at the end of a sleep cycle, rather than being awoken from a heavy sleep which is much more draining. It's not spooky - it's being in tune with your babe!

Kristin
Mama to Aaron, 1/26/03


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Adding to the references to special needs, ds was also a very special needs baby.

This more than anything was my motivation to avoid any CIO, or even crying without satisfaction (meaning I am one of those who would have pulled the car over, although I don't consider it CIO if you can't or/won't pull the car over with a crying baby).

Aletha Solter's books, and other research on primal therapy, highlights the critical relationship between pre verbal humans cries (meaning a baby or toddler), the response they get, and the ability to heal.

When a baby has experienced any trauma, their cries are more than just signals for pain and attention, but also an attempt to release the trauma they have experienced.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Is anyone else familiar with the research by Dr. James McKenna (I know I spelled that wrong)?

His articles on the natural emotional and physical benefits of sharing sleep are some of the finest research I have come across in the subject of human sleep patterns.


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## sagewinna (Nov 19, 2001)

I am not comfortable with CIO.

My kids co-slept, each until they were about 2 1/2. They both go to sleep fine now, on their own, and if they wake at night I usually don't know it because they go right back to sleep. They are 5 and 9 now.

The friends that I have that used CIO had kids that still cried for several minutes when they were put down for a nap or for bed, even at 1 or 2 years old.


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## Kylix (May 3, 2002)

Nice civil discussion







!!

Heartmama, your explanation about what CIO really is was extraordinary. I have always found your posts so well-written and so at the heart of how I want to raise my children.









I agree that CIO is an *intentional absence* on the parent's part. It is NO response. I think that at the heart of the attachment parenting philosophy is to provide children with a response good or bad. When a young child is tantruming, we show them how to regain control of their kicking and screaming not by ignoring them but by giving them a safe place to go and release that frustration. I've heard of mamas here talking about allowing them space to vent if they so want it or holding the child if that is what they desire. The key here is that the older child is not being left alone intentionally as a means of no response at all. Many AP mamas see ignoring a tantruming child's cries as dismissing his/her feelings. We want to teach our children to use their words to tell us how they feel. We don't do this by ignoring them. We do this by listening.

I say all this not to divert the conversation away from babies and leaving them to cry at night but to make a parallel point. If we believe, that it is harmful to our older children's guidance by ignoring their cries , why would we want to do the same to young babies??? Their needs are even more so important as they do not have the capability of understanding "mommy will be back...."

That's why this statement really doesn't make sense to me--

Quote:

_Originally posted by alexa07_ I also believed that trying to let them do this at an early age was better. So at a very early age, I let them try to fall asleep on their own, even though they cried.
There is plenty of time in a child's life for him or her to learn to fall asleep on his or her own. Why start so young when they can't possibly understand what's going on? How can we teach our children anything by ignoring their cries?

I respect the way you raise your children. In the grand scheme of things, I do not believe that CIO is baby abuse. I think that is too strong a term especially considering the way that you have described that you use it. But I truly do not feel it fits in with the AP philosophy. To me, AP IS listening to your baby's cries.

Kylix


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

There is plenty of time in a child's life for him or her to learn to fall asleep on his or her own. Why start so young when they can't possibly understand what's going on? How can we teach our children anything by ignoring their cries?
I just had to say I agree with this statement. My ds is very high-need/spirited. He has never been a "good" sleeper (and most likely never will). Despite this he is learning to fall asleep on his own without any prompting from me (he is 2). Starting at about 12 months he would occasionally unlatch, roll over, and fall asleep. Amazing for a child that still nursed on average 25 times/day at that point (actually it was probably more then that). We went through phases where he would do this every night, and other phases where he had such an intense need for me at night. Gradually he has slept for longer periods and needed me less at night (although we have a family bed). He is learning to sleep on his own, at his own rate. Plus, he knows that I am always there for him at night regardless of the reason he may need me. That is my job as his mother after all. I can't imagine that he will never fall asleep without me, he will not always want me around. I prefer to follow my own instincts, no book or "research" can tell me more about my child then I already know. Every instinct I have says that his crying himself to sleep just to "learn to sleep on his own" is just wrong. Other mothers will no doubt have different feelings and instincts about their children (especially in special circumstances), and I'm sure no research or book is necessary for them either. That is why listening to your child is so important









Laurie


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## laralou (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

I do not believe that CIO is baby abuse.
Keep in mind though, that if the same thing were done to an elderly person in a nh it would be called neglect and/or abuse. I have seen nh that were cited and fined by the state for exactly this reason.

I am not talking about you, Kim. I think you are talking about something different with your ds.


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## Kylix (May 3, 2002)

Quote:

Keep in mind though, that if the same thing were done to an elderly person in a nh it would be called neglect and/or abuse. I have seen nh that were cited and fined by the state for exactly this reason.
Good point, laralou. It's amazing what is seen okay to do to young children (hitting--renamed 'spanking' for example) but is thought of as abhorrent if done to an adult.









Kylix


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## Alexander (Nov 22, 2001)

Sleeping a skill?

I can't help a giggle here. I feel it's like saying "breathing, a skill"!









IME children fall asleep when sleep calls them. Other factors are at work too. Good factors include when they feel secure and confident, happy and loved.

Other things that can help is stimulation. Putting the hoover on next to a baby's crib, rocking, stroking and massaging the body and limbs, non-dynamic music, car ride, general background conversation.

When a baby cries and is left alone, and falls asleep, I feel what it is doing is going into a very primitive survival mode. It has learned that no-one is around, and the safest thing to do is conserve energy and shut up.

Just random thoughts on my gut feelings here. I have not yet thought this through very thoroughly and welcome feedback on your insticts.

a


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## CandyLayne (May 12, 2003)

we don't cio at home but like jane, if she has a melt down in the car, we sometimes just keep going if we're very close to where we're going and talk to her until we get there. if we are traveling though, we stop and calm her down before going again


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

By the time I had my third child I relized the benifits of helping them form good sleeping habits from the get go. (wow, that experession looks stupid written out, anyway . . . )

My first had SID and would sleep anytime she got overwhelmed so spent most of her first year asleep as she was easily overwhelmed. We didn't even have a clue about her eye color until she was near three months old because she never stayed awake long enough for anyone to get a peak.

#2 being thepolar opposite of her sister was super charged by any sort of stimulatiuon and was living off of about 8 hours a day of sleep by the time she 3 months. No naps for this baby. I assumed that if she needed sleep she would sleep. I assumed that her constantly crabby disposition had nothing to do with her lack of sleep. after all if she was sleepy she would sleep. Afraid not. Some kids have a harder time sleeping the more exhausted they get. this was the case for Lilyka. She just kept getting more and more tired. And thusly more and more crabby. I don't remember when I snapped. One day when she was about 2 I decided she would begine going to bed at 8:00PM sharp instead of 12:00-1:00 as she had done all her life. You bet she whined about it., For about 3 solid days for hours. Now a year later she marches herself up to bed when she is tired before her bedtime and she has started taking pretty consistant naps. And she is once again the happy smiley girl I gave birth to. I just wish it hadn't taken me 2 years to figure it out that some kids need more help and more work to establish good sleep habits. I vowed it would be different with my next one and it was.

The day we brought Ava home from the hospital I started putting in her crib" sleepy but awake". Just like every9one out there says to. She occaisionally fusses . I tend to her if she screams but if she is just fussing and whining I let her work it out herself - she has a right to mad about it being bed time but it is time for sleeping none the less. I wish I had doine this with my other children. She is so happoy and always well rested. She is so much easier to get to sleep and lets face it. When your baby gives you a nice nap it is just easier to be a good mommy. Everyone wins and if a little fussing is what it take to make my children happy in healthy in the long run and me a well rested sane mamma then count me in.

Again I would not leave my child to scream bloody murder but a little fussin' for a few minutes just isn't that traumatizing. I guess with my first one I wouldn't have been able to tell the difference between whining, fussing and crying for help and attention but then agian I hardly ever took the time to listen. I would just shove a boob in her mouth. I like it better this way..


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## alexa07 (Mar 27, 2003)

Sorry to disagree with you Alexander. I believe sleeping is indeed a skill and is not like breathing. If it were there wouldn't be so many people suffering from sleeping disorders.

What all of the reserach that I read showed was that people who did not learn to fall asleep on their own as children had a higher risk of problems with insomnia as adults. Now, this is only a risk. It is not an absolute cause and effect.

The reserach also showed that the earlier one learned to fall asleep on one's own, the better the chance of developing better sleep habits later on. And again this just increased the odds, didn't gurantee anything.

Allowing a limited amount of crying at night when they were first sleeping on thier own seemed to be what my kids needed to get the sleep their bodies so desperately needed.

I feel I made the right choice for my kids. At 6 months they were sleeping 12 hours at night (uniterrupted) and another 3 hours during the day. I guess my kids really need alot of sleep.









If you feel you all have done what is best for your kids, that is great too.


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

I didn't let dd1 CIO until she was about one. She would go down for the night around 7pm and wake about every hour until I went to bed, 4 or 5 hours later, then she'd wake to nurse every couple of hours. It got frustrating at times because I *did* want to watch TV (read veg out) or socialize with adults, you know get a couple of my needs met so I'd have something available to give to dd, kwim? Anyway, I got to a point where I just couldn't be in that bed for 12 hours every night. I need sleep, but not 12 hours! And by then she was not just waking every hour she was fussing pretty much constantly if I tried to leave the room after she fell asleep, even if she had "the limp limb sign." So I let her CIO, which more accurately should be called fuss herself to sleep. I would give her a hug, put her down, pat her back, tell her I was going to be right in the next room if she needed me, that I'd be to bed later, it was her bedtime, not mine. If she kept fussing I'd go in every few minutes and repeat this. If the cries were winding down, with pauses to listen in between then I'd go about my business, but if they escalated into "I NEED You" screams then I would go in and lie down with her. She eventually learned to sleep from 7 to midnight, and when she was about 18 months I night-weaned her from all but the midnight nursing. I worked 3-11, so would come home and nurse her and then we'd all get a good night sleep. It did not solve all our problems. She still often kept me in the bed more than I wanted to be there, but it was worth it and I'm glad I did it that way. At six she has her own bed in her own room, puts herself to sleep and has absolutely no sleep issues. If I had to do it all over again I would know not to be so resentful of needing to stay in the bed with her so much.


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

The only times I've not responded to dd when she cried (she's almost 7 months) have been, yes, in the car. i totally lose my sh** when she cries and I can't respond. I get all shaky and freaked out and kind of frantic.







! i can't imagine what would happen to me if I tried CIO, never mind dd. I feel very fortunate that she sleeps well -- she co-sleeps and nurses a few times in the night but we don't really wake up for that.

There are times when she fusses or cries herelf to sleep--but in our arms. I've noticed if she doesn't get her nap and gets overtired, she needs to have a mini meltdown to get to sleep. but it feels right to me that I or my dp hold her through that, and I suspect if we put her down she would get freaked out and not fall asleep.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

I have on occasion, mostly for sleeping, but sometimes for tantrums. I mostly agree with Alexa, and have also researched a great deal of sleep literature.

My kids were adopted. We had huge sleep problems when my oldest came home. We tried all sorts of things to no avail. Nobody could get any sleep and we were all miserable, which was making her adjustment extremely difficult. I was petrified dh or I would fall asleep at the wheel, which was becoming a real possibility. We finally tried a modified Ferber approach which worked perfectly in two nights. We were all, daughter especially, much happier after that. Neither of our kids would sleep at all with us in the same room, by the way.

My younger daughter will not accept comfort when she is having a tantrum. She wants to be left alone. So, it that situation, I let her CIO.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

(((Kylix))) I think your posts are far more eloquent, but thank you for being so supportive!

Kylix wrote:

Quote:

But I truly do not feel it fits in with the AP philosophy. To me, AP IS listening to your baby's cries.

Parents who believe children should CIO have plenty of support. All the reasons given here by parents who have used CIO would be understood and encouraged at almost any other website. The mainstream is on the side of CIO. That is the reality.

Shared sleep, or at least parenting a child to sleep (nighttime parenting) is at the very heart of ap. CIO is not part of ap. It is, obviously, the antithesis of ap. It is choosing not to respond to a child.

Ap parents have a wealth of anecdotal and scientific evidence, much of which has been made widespread through Mothering magazine, which supports nighttime parenting over CIO as the best way to fullfill the emotional and physical needs of babies and mothers.

We aren't debating whether CIO is an ap issue. CIO is not a part of ap, and I think (hope) we can all agree on that.

Which leaves me to wonder, what are parents who CIO going to prove in this thread? I understand the other thread used the term *abuse* to describe it, and parents who CIO wanted to defend themselves against that label.

This is a different thread. What is the point of a CIO debate at Mothering?


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

Heartmama,

You have an excellent understanding and clear definition of what CIO is. I don't think anyone here believes that CIO in its true definition as you explained in another post is AP. I do think that there are a lot of parents who are trying to attachment parent but when it comes to listening to themselves and their children as far as crying/fussing and going to sleep, having a tantrum, or riding in the car are a bit confused as to whether they are CIO and if that is okay if you are AP. They are trying to listen and do what feels right, but question themselves because its not AP.

Because I practiced (and it is "practicing" since I'm still trying to get it right) AP I felt comfortable with what I did. I knew my dd and myself and what we needed at that point. It really wasn't CIO, because I was responding to her on many levels. I think the debate may actually lie in what constitutes a response. I also think it is debatable whether babies understand intent. I think my 2 mo old knows my intentions if she's crying and I can't get to her right away. I'm either talking to her or explaining once I get there. I think on some level she understands. I think she also can tell if I am angry. It stands to reason she would also know if my intent was to harden my heart to her cries. Speaking of cries, I think we can also debate the definitions of crying vs, fussing and whether letting them fuss is okay.

I agree with you that emotional abandonment is not AP and is in fact its antitheses, but these parents are not necessarily describing emotional abandonment.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Sofiamomma, at least we agree that CIO is not part of ap.

CIO is not defined by how loud a baby cries or for how long they cry. CIO is best distinguished by the attitude and response of the parent to the cries of their baby.

I cannot stress this enough.

No parent who uses CIO thinks of it as "emotional abandonment" of their baby. Obviously emotional abandonment is not a part of ap. That doesn't mean so long as a parent thinks they are doing what is best, that a lack of response to their babies cries is a part of ap.

I understand your question noting the tendency to evaluate the validity of a baby's needs based on their cries. In all fairness, the terms fussing/crying/whining all describe the same thing...a signal for attention.

I think that if ap is the philosophy in question, any signal for attention from a baby constitutes a valid signal. Trying to pick apart whether "this kind of cry" or "that kind of cry" deserves a response sounds like mainstream parenting. Fine for many. But again, probably not a discussion that helps understand ap.

Ap can help answer the question "How should I respond to this situation?". Responding to signals is the foundation of attachment parenting.


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

I voted sometimes. Let me 'splain.

Goo is a very wound up little girl. She will talk to us at night. She was a great sleeper from the get go (I love that phrase) and she was sleeping over night without waking up by 14 weeks, with very little help.

She does need to get the day's frustrations out. Now that she is crawling and standing and going everywhere, she has to wind down at night. We have a routine at night, bath every other night, jammies, 2 books and then bottle.

Some nights, she isn't ready for the bottle. She wants to talk and hold. So we cuddle. Some nights she wants to play instead of go to bed. If she isn't tired, then ok, we play for 10-20 minutes before we try bed again. Well, at this point, I can recognize her cues and I KNOW that she needs to sleep. If she is truely tired and fighting going to bed, I will put her down in her bed (crib) and she will complain.
We give her about 5 minutes to complain/cry/fuss OR if she starts to get too upset, we'll come in earlier. Then we will go in, pick her up, hug and try the nighttime feeding again. She rarely doesn't want it the second time. About 60% of the time, she falls asleep in those 5 minutes after getting her stress out. Does she have any other way of getting that stress out? Yes, she will be very giggly when she is getting tired, but when she is past that edge, she will cry. She has a limited range of verbal expressions and things that are upseting; hurt, angry, frustrated, abondoned, and tired are things that she expresses with crying. Each upsetting cry is different and I need to listen for it, but crying itself does not mean she needs me. (Like today when she bumped her head. She cried from the pain, but wouldn't let me hug her. She wanted to try climbing again).

Is this abuse? Not in my opinion. My child is like me, I have trouble falling asleep if I am wound up. I need to get that energy out.
Do I ignore her? Yes, and no. I let her cry, yell, jabber to get the stress out, but if she gets panicked, I go right back to her.

Is FALLING asleep a skill? Yes. I am not good at falling asleep. I hope that Goo can learn how to soothe herself.

Heartmama asked:

Quote:

Which leaves me to wonder, what are parents who CIO going to prove in this thread? I understand the other thread used the term *abuse* to describe it, and parents who CIO wanted to defend themselves against that label.

This is a different thread. What is the point of a CIO debate at Mothering?
I think the issue is that if you leave your child crying, some people consider it CIO even if you don't. I really don't consider what we do with Goo to be CIO, but others would. THAT is why it is valid to debate it at Mothering. What is the definition of CIO and how the parent responds are the issues to consider. I think too often, we focus on the C part of CIO and forget that crying child does not equal CIO.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Sofiamomma wrote:

Quote:

I agree with you that emotional abandonment is not AP and is in fact its antitheses, but these parents are not necessarily describing emotional abandonment.
I just want to point out, I don't think I ever used the term "emotional abandonment".

I said this in my original post:

Quote:

In order to identify CIO, there has to be an *intentional absence* of response from the parent to the baby. The lack of response comes from a belief that crying without response is beneficial for a baby. These are the hallmark of CIO.
If you don't agree with this definition, fine, and I would like to see a better one. I based this on the way CIO is understood, not just by those who are against it, but by it's supporters, such as Ezzo, Ferber, and the like.

I see a number of posts that fit this description perfectly, and some insist they aren't using CIO.

We can't begin to debate this unless we agree on a definition. And I don't think a definition of this behaviour exists that understands the description I gave as ever being a reflection of ap.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I'm interested to hear reasons why a parent might choose to use CIO - reasons other than the usual mainstream garbage like "If they are fed, and dry, then they are crying for no reason". Instead, I'm hearing some thoughtful posts from parents who have obviously put some thought into the matter and come to decisions that sit right with them.

For me personally, I cannot and would not leave my daughter to cry alone. Fortunately, I've never been pushed beyond my limits. Thus, I try not to judge people for making choices that differ from my own.

I believe my innate instincts to attend to my baby, to pick her up and hold her when she cries, are something almost sacred or spiritual. Something to be honoured. I used to read about that feeling, that "urge" mothers felt, but honestly I couldn't begin to truly understand it until I experienced it myself. I feel connected to Nature and to the universe when I feel the pull of that deep-rooted, mammalian maternal instinct. I don't want to dull myself to it. And when "medical experts" (traditionally men) try to convince women that they are "ruining" their children by giving in to "emotional hysteria"...well, I find that insulting to all Women and Mothers. Each woman I know who did full-blown CIO admitted to being near ill with anxiety while they fought the instinct to respond to their baby. I am angry for them that anybody taught them their instincts weren't worth honouring. This is what the CIO issue means to me.


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## Cloverlove (Jan 2, 2003)

I voted "no, never." BUT both my children are TERRIBLE sleepers! I am not convinced that my way is the only way or indeed the best way because they do have such sleep issues (we coslept and nursed down). It is a shame because dd was such a great little sleeper and I feel we encouraged otherwise by responding to every fuss. I *do* believe there is a difference between fussing and crying and I think being ap can mean that you are in tune to your baby winding down (fussing) or really needing you (crying).

Just my $.02


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## darlindeliasmom (Nov 19, 2001)

I keep wanting to post, but never quite can find the words to express how I feel...until I read heartmama's posts.

Thanks heartmama, for saying what I would say if I was as eloquent as you...and not as hormonally challenged as I am right now!


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Piglet I agree fully with your post. It actually gave me chills. Ds is getting so big now (just turned seven!) reading your post reminded me how it felt when he was small and pre verbal and ours was a communication of look, touch, and togetherness.

I do want to point out that not every parent necessarily feels torn doing "full blown" CIO. Some ezzo boards reflect that.

Most parents respond to their babies as they think best. I do not think every response reflects ap. Some parents come to the GD board who truly think their child needs to be spanked, and benefit from it. That does not mean spanking is a part of GD.

I don't think withholding a response intentionally is a part of attachment parenting a child to sleep.

I can't change anyone's mind about it, but I do think that for the sake of parents who are attracted to attachment parenting, and are still searching for answers on these boards, it is worth repeating even if I'm starting to sound like a broken record...

(((Darlindeliasmom))) thank you.....


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

double post


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

I guess I don't think I have anything to "prove," by admitting to using CIO in my circumstances. I certainly don't expect to have the majority agree with me at MDC, but the majority didn't parent my kids during this period after our adoption, either, so I'm not seeking approval.

We tried comforting and sleeping in the same room for my older daughter. She absolutely refused to go to sleep as long as we were with her. I know that if we did not allow her to cry, our transition would have taken much longer and been much harder on all of us, dd included. For the period when she wasn't sleeping, she was miserable all day long--low grade whining, because she was exhausted. After the two nights of "ferber," she was much happier, and her normally sunny personality appeared. That's when the bonding really started. It wasn't fun or easy listening to her cry from a different room any more than it was fun or easy listening to her feeling miserable all day.

I'm not a big advocate of CIO. I just think that sometimes, under some circumstances, it works. My two year old will not allow us to comfort her when she has a tantrum. Picking her up or stroking her or even sitting with her just annoys her more. I don't consider that it's so cruel to let her just get the tantrum out of her system if that's what she needs to do.


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## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by heartmama_
[B

Parents who believe children should CIO have plenty of support. All the reasons given here by parents who have used CIO would be understood and encouraged at almost any other website. The mainstream is on the side of CIO. That is the reality.

Shared sleep, or at least parenting a child to sleep (nighttime parenting) is at the very heart of ap. CIO is not part of ap. It is, obviously, the antithesis of ap. It is choosing not to respond to a child.

Ap parents have a wealth of anecdotal and scientific evidence, much of which has been made widespread through Mothering magazine, which supports nighttime parenting over CIO as the best way to fullfill the emotional and physical needs of babies and mothers.

We aren't debating whether CIO is an ap issue. CIO is not a part of ap, and I think (hope) we can all agree on that.

Which leaves me to wonder, what are parents who CIO going to prove in this thread? I understand the other thread used the term *abuse* to describe it, and parents who CIO wanted to defend themselves against that label.

This is a different thread. What is the point of a CIO debate at Mothering? [/B]
Heartmama, I completely agree. I originally posted this debate because of the "abuse" thread. People there became visciously defensive about their decision. I know that on other AP boards, ie. ParentsPlace.com, talk about CIO is completely against board rules. Therefore I was completely shocked to see how many "AP" mama's left their children to CIO or sleep trained their children. I have, since posting this thread, found that there are some valid reasons for CIO, although never alone, IMO. Like Onthefence with her child and the sensory problem, obviously, holding her child was causing more problems than necessary. I cannot understand though, how a parent can place their child in a crib and walk out. I cannot understand how anyone thinks that a child sleeps better when they cry themselves to sleep versus falling asleep in a comfortable, loving, warm environment. I think that my child *would* feel abandoned if I left him alone to cry himself to sleep. He sleeps great. He is 14 weeks old and sleeps through the night. I rock him to sleep and yes, he does take a paci, and then I place him in his crib, next to our bed. Sometimes my hubby's alarm wakes him up (hubby gets up at odd hours of the night to work) and I place Kaeleb in the bed with me for the rest of the night. This only happens once in a while though. I reserve bathtime for nights so that he can play in the water and usually during drying off, he screams. I dry him off as quickly as possible, slap a diaper on his bum, get him dressed and comfort him immediately. He is usually asleep an hour later. I don't think I could live with myself if I placed him in his crib and let him CIO. My dd on the other hand, was always a fall asleep by herself baby. She never CIO. She simply fell asleep unaided. Lord that child was an easy baby!


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Whether something is a reflection of attachment parenting doesn't invalidate it as an effective choice.

I think ap is a (mostly) clear set of values and whether a parent thinks they will work for them is absolutely their choice to make.

CIO does not have to be a part of ap for a parent to say "It works for me".

I think if people accept that then there would be fewer hurt feelings in these threads.


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## alexa07 (Mar 27, 2003)

I have done alot of research on sleep. I believe that in a society where people do not go from their parent's bedrooms to that of their spouse, learning to fall asleep on one's own is important. I used CIO in limited way (see my threads) to teach my kids to do this.

Obviously the posts from the board "Nightwaking and the Family Bed" seem to correlate with the many, many sleep studies that I have read: Co-sleeping tends (not always though) to make worse sleepers. Now, that does not in any way mean that co-sleeping is not a valid and good choice. It was just not the right choice for My family.

So why do I post on AP board? Because I

1. Breastfed and engaged in child led weaning.

2. have an open bed policy for any child who knows how to fall asleep on their own, but needs their mama any particular night. (My kids take this option about once per month)

3. Engage only in gentle discipline.

4. Love to hear what mama's have to say and this is a great board.

People do not have to agree on everything. Respect my choices and I will respect yours.


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

Obviously the posts from the board "Nightwaking and the Family Bed" seem to correlate with the many, many sleep studies that I have read: Co-sleeping tends (not always though) to make worse sleepers. Now, that does not in any way mean that co-sleeping is not a valid and good choice. It was just not the right choice for My family.
I would hesitate to say that the Nightwaking board is an example of how cosleeping makes worse sleepers. It is a place where mothers go when they have a problem relating to cosleeping (just as there are many places, I'm sure, where you can go if you are having problems with crib sleeping). You generally don't hear the success stories, after all we don't need advice when things are going well. Most cosleepers will tell you how much MORE sleep they get because of cosleeping. Besides that, most people that seem to have tried CIO are not cosleeping (for whatever reason). Wouldn't that mean that cribsleeping is creating problems of its own? Not all people (children and adults) sleep well. There are many reasons for that (including diet, genetic predisposition to sleep disorders, health issues like restless leg syndrom, medication, etc). It is a broad generalization to claim that learning to fall asleep on one's own will solve sleep problems. Also, most (if not all) research may focus on how these CIO babies *sleep* as adults, but do they focus on how they function in other areas as well?

JMO
Laurie


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## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

I respect anyone's decision to parent their children the way that works best for them. I apologize if I came across any other way. I merely don't understand. Upon reflection, I know that it is not *my* place to understand what happens in someone else's family. I do apologize if I have offended anyone.


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## Bug (May 19, 2003)

I voted No, never.
My babies are now 5 (ds) and 3 (dd). Ds was a high needs baby, and at times it was stressful...but I have no regrets.









Bug


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## tenne (Sep 12, 2002)

I don't think I have used CIO, in the textbook sense, but I am sure many of you would. My dd is a terrible sleeper. She has always cried before sleeping, whether in the sling, swing, arms, car, srtroller, crib, bed, nursing... She would pull off, cry for a minute, then latch back on and fall asleep. Until she was 7 months she nursed to sleep in our bed and would wake every several hours to nurse. Then she started waking every 15 minutes until I went to bed and every hour all night, so we had dh walk her to sleep. She started sleeping longer for about a month but then started waking hourly again. So we started putting her in the crib asleep, where she would stay for about 3 hours and then come to bed with us. That eventually stopped working as well. So at about 11 months we decided that she needed to fall asleep in her crib. The first night she cried for a very long time. I stood next to the crib, rubbed her back, sang, and when she got very upset I held her until she calmed down. The next night I put her in the crib and within 10 minutes she was asleep, slept 6 hours, and was happy the next day. She now goes to sleep with 10 minutes 95% of the time. She started waking after 2 hours so I rubbed her back and she fell back to sleep. After 2 nights she started sleeping 5-6 hours again. She is now happy in the morning, instead of whiney and miserable. I didn't realize what an impact not sleeping had on her personality. I have also left her alone in the crib to cry, but never for more that 2 minutes to recenter myself.
I think that we need to look at all of our child's needs - not just the need to be held/nursed/etc to sleep. We also need to be realistic about what is actually going on with sleep and how much we have altered their inborn sleep habits. I have always chalked up dd's sleep issues to her inborn nature, but recently I was forced to reevaluate that assumption. My dd, who on a great night sleeps a 5 hours, then 3, then 2, then 1, spent a night at my parents' last week. She slept in bed with my mother and went to sleep at 9pm - and slept until 5am. She then played with her feet for 15 minutes, then laid down and went back to sleep until 8. I am obviously more of the problem than I was admitting to myself. I think a lot of it came from me trying too hard - trying to do what was right according to "the book" instead of what was right for my child. Instead of accepting that she was going to cry for a minute before sleep I bent over backwards trying to get her not to - and that led to a child with terrible sleep patterns.
I didn't want her to cry at all and if there was another way to get her to sleep well I would do it. But I had tried every suggestion in The No-Cry Sleep Solution and many suggestions I got from many different people. Nothing else was working and we needed her to sleep. As bad as it was to let her cry that night, and for a few minutes on other nights, the alternatives were worse. I was too exhausted to devote as much daytime energy as she needed. Dh was getting to the point where he wasn't able to do his job as well - the job that allows me to stay at home. He and I were arguing constantly because of lack of sleep, frustration, and the inability to spend any time together in the evening because we were consumed with getting her to sleep. Then there are the really awful possibilities - that one of us would fall asleep while driving, or do something else dangerous because of sleep deprivation. So I had to weigh the damage of crying against the damage of having two unhappy, barely competent, hostile parents. I decided crying was the lesser evil and I don't think she has been scarred by it in any way. Actually, I think the oppisite. I was beginning to watch her in her struggle to sleep and feel so terribly for her. It seemed so painful and upsetting for her to want and need to sleep, but not be able to. I put myself in her position and thought "How would I feel if everytime I was tired, and everytime I went through a sleep cycle, I need my enviroment to be exactly a certain way for me to fall back to sleep?" I decided that it would be awful, and frustrating, and upsetting. Yet I was letting her suffer through that, because I had been told that letting her cry was bad. It wasn't until I really examined what was best for her and forgot about what I was being told was best for her, that I was able to respond in a truly attached manner. I think I got so attached to a philosophy that I began to loose my attachment to dd and my gut instinct.
I do agree that CIO is used too often, too young, too extremely, and against what is best for the family. I tried everything I could before I let her cry. I waited until she was nearly a year old. I never left her alone to cry herself to sleep. I really believe that I did what was best for our family and will cause no lasting problems with dd or our relationship. 95% of the time I respond to her cries in the manner she wants me to - I truly don't believe that letting her cry for a few minutes before bed (with me right there) is going to have a lasting negative impact. I think that when it comes to thinks like CIO we need to look at the big picture and our individual circumstances and make decisions based on that, not what other people are telling us.

Erin


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## Kylix (May 3, 2002)

_This post has been temporarily removed for editing by the author, and will be returned when editing is complete._

Kylix, your PM box is full. Please PM me when you've emptied it. Piglet68.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

alexa07 wrote:

Quote:

Co-sleeping tends (not always though) to make worse sleepers.
I think there is considerable research which does not support that claim.

To begin with, it is well documented that many "sleep studies" which record the habits of co sleepers fail to distinguish between families that co sleep from birth, and those who begin with crib sleeping, develop problems, and try co sleeping later. In reality, many families that use co sleeping have also crib slept. Co sleeping tends to be a * reactionary* choice, rather than a lifestyle choice for most americans . Babies who wake often, children who wake up with nightmares, etc. sometimes wind up in the parents bed. A researcher could now say this family co sleeps, and has sleeping problems too. You see how misleading this can be.

Also, international research shows that co sleeping is the norm in a majority of cultures. These cultures, in research I have seen, do not have a higher incidence of sleep problems. In fact, it is lower in many of the reports.

Some of the best summaries of this research can be found in back issues of Mothering.

Anecdotally, if you browse the sleep forums at mainstream boards, or read mainstream magazines, they are chock full of parents having problems with crib sleeping babies that refuse to sleep through the night, toddlers who refuse to stay in bed, and older kids who refuse to go to bed at all. I'm not sure you can prove much from reading a sleep forum either way.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

T

tenne are you familiar with Aletha Solter? The description of your daughter brought back her book in my mind.

I don't agree with all of her writings (The Aware Baby, Tears and Tantrums, I can't remember the rest), but she makes an excellent case for something she calls "aware crying" (I think). Solter had studied primal therapy with adults and began to identify a kind of crying in infants that was not a signal for food or pain, but an attempt to release pent up trauma and frustration the baby had experienced (birth, or later events could cause this). Often, a baby that is trying to release an emotional pain through crying will begin an exhausting cycle with their caregiver. The baby cries, the caregiver attends to them, attempting to stop the crying, the baby stops temporarily and begins again. The baby does not have any other way to release those emotions, and since every release is met with a frantic attempt to stop their cries, they begin to wake up crying frequently, to the point of exhaustion.

As with adult primal therapy, Solter writes that the only way for a person to release their trauma is to feel heard, supported, and not to be discouraged from letting out their pain. She writes that often when a parent identifies this kind of cry with their baby, and just holds them, relaxes, and listens and lets the baby get it out, the cycle stops and the baby sleeps better, is more alert, and happier. Some babies need to be heard every day, others not as often, and some only for a few sessions until their trauma is released. Solter writes the reason why tradition CIO does not work is the same reason therapy doesn't work without a therapist. People want and need to feel heard.

It occured to me that while you see yourself as "part of the problem" (since your dd slept better with your mother), your dd may actually feel so much safer with you, naturally, she waits until you are near to begin this cycle of release.

Maybe this does not apply to your dd, but I went through something like this with my ds , and the pattern you describe with your dd could have been lifted from the pages of Solters "Aware Baby" book, right down to the "latching off to cry" during nursing.

As I said in an earlier post, a crying baby is not an aspect of CIO. Babies cry. It is one way they communicate. Possibly, holding your dd in your arms and giving aware attention, Solter-style, will work just as well as letting her cry in her crib.

Just an idea.


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## Pallas (Nov 19, 2001)

When Cub was new, and I was getting my bearings, we had a cycle of Things To Try When He Cried. Rocking, bouncing, nursing, singing, Daddy, etc. Putting him down was in this cycle, because I would have felt like a schmuck if all he wanted was to be left alone and I hadn't tried it! Never once did that do the trick -- of course, I only put him down for a moment or two, and there was an increase in decibal so I immediately picked him up. I decided that if I couldn't get him to stop crying, I could at least be with him while he did it -- it's what I, as an adult, would want if I was distressed.

He has always slept with us (he's two now) and slept through the night almost immediately. He's had bad patches when he was teething, or going through a developmental surge, but generally it's been marvelous. I do think there's a difference between kids that have been brought to bed from a crib because of problems and kids that started out in the family bed. My criteria for moving him from our bed was that he be old enough to wake up, need us, navigate to our room and crawl into bed.

When he cried in his carseat, if it wasn't possible to soothe him (because there was another driver, for example) I talked and sang so that he would hear my voice and know that, even if he was unhappy, he wasn't alone. I can't imagine letting him cry when it was possible to be there for him. I'm just not wired that way, and I don't believe it would teach him anything useful.

Sometimes when he gets angry he tells me he wants to be alone. I respect that, but remain close enough to be there when he changes his mind. I think that's AP. It would be cruel, dominating, and counter-productive to force my embrace on him at that time.

Thank you, Heartmama and Kylix, for expressing my thoughts so well! I agree that it's important to clearly define CIO so that we are actually debating the same issue. There have been many posters who referred to themselves as CIO when I would disagree, and many who insist that they're not when IMO they certainly are. I also think it's important to clarify that saying that CIO is absolutely not AP is not a judgement -- it's a fact. Saying that CIO is evil or abusive is a judgement. I respect the posters who acknowledge that this is simply one aspect of AP that doesn't work for them -- they're honest, and seem happy with the outcomes.

Namaste,

Pallas


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## tenne (Sep 12, 2002)

Thanks for your post - I was nervous.







I have heard of Solter and thought about getting a book, before I read some pretty negative reviews.
Thank you for your suggestion. Dd actually doesn't cry until we put her in the crib - although lately she has figured out the routine and starts whimpering when we turn off the light while holding her. Generally we stand next to the crib holding her until we can feel she has relaxed, then we lay her down. She usually cries for a minute at the most. I would be happy to hold her while she cries but I am fortunate in that she rarely cries while being held. Actually she almost never cried in arms before 6 months but the older she gets the more she does - I think because her wants/needs are more complex and being held doesn't solve things the way they used to. But she is now comforted in the crib by me just singing to her. But when she wakes she starts screaming immedietly. There are times that I will be watching her sleep for 5 minutes and am convinced that she is out. I will turn to walk to the door and before I am 5 feet away she is standing and screaming. It is terribly frustrating, particularly because I would have no problem with cosleeping if it worked for us. But after 3 weeks of playing for 2 hours in the middle of the night I had to do something.
Thank you also for pointing out that she feels safe with me, it is something I try to remember but don't always. The whole sleep issue is such a struggle for me, and guilt inducing all the way around, so no matter what I do I feel badly. It is truly the only difficult thing (so far, for me) about being a mother and something I have a very hard time discussing with anyone, since I feel like I am floating between two philosophies. I am fortunate to have two wonderful internet friends who understand - without them I would have snapped by now. But in any case - I appreciate your post, and suggestions.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

I have a good friend whose dd is now 5. Since birth they responded to every single whimper out of the dd by picking her up. Bedtimes were awful - and I've witnessed lots of them. She never read, or ignored the kid's cues that she was tired. They still have sleep problems with this child.

I have a dd who is almost 3. She will sometimes object strenuously to going to bed. Crying, telling me she's not tired, etc. Yet once she is in her crib within a few minutes (max 2) she will roll over, put her thumb in her mouth and go to sleep.

My friend, in that situation would not put her child in the crib, so she would be up crying for hours. Because they don't CIO. Well, I don't think I do either, but I let the 2 minutes happen. And my child is a happier, calmer, more rested child than hers.

I also "sleep trained" both my dds to sleep through the night at 6 weeks. I've had this discussion here about it before, and I'm not getting into it again.

I agree with most of what Alexa says.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

(((Pallas))) thank you! I liked this:

Quote:

I also think it's important to clarify that saying that CIO is absolutely not AP is not a judgement -- it's a fact. Saying that CIO is evil or abusive is a judgement.
(((tenne))) you may like Solter's book. At least the part about aware crying. I don't agree with her entire philosophy but I think her book is groundbreaking in it's own way. I've never seen another book that really tries to address the issue of how to help heal a traumatized infant. Good reading.


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## irishprincess71 (Mar 22, 2003)

Some of these posrs and the attitudes behind them bother me. They share a very disturbing similarity to the Ezzo philosophy - "if you don't raise your children exactly the way we tell you to do it you are doing it wrong and going to ruin your children for life."

IF the idea of AP is to learn to listen and understand your children's cries and needs regardless of what the "experts" tell us, then aren't we just as guilty of Anti-APing by telling a mother that she didn't understand those cries and needs.

Babies beyond the first few months cry for many, many reason. They have no other form of communication. Just because they communicate unhappiness doesn't mean they want or need a parent's intervention. By this I mean - if your 2 year old said to you "I don't want to go to bed. I want to stay up," with tears in her eyes would you always give in just because she expressed unhappiness with the situation. Would you only put her to bed when she fell asleep on the floor of the living room every night because you don't want her to express unhappiness? That wouldn't be good parenting or listening to the other needs that she has, such as sleep. So I don't believe that would be true APing.

I firmly believe that a baby has just as much right to express opinions about things without being raised to feel like they are doing something wrong with being unhappy. I am unhappy sometimes and express it. I don't feel like I am wrong for it or that everyone around me must jump through hoops to make me happy.

Every post that I have read on here about mothers that use the CIO (all in very non-Ezzo ways) did it after listening to the cues of the babies. Their babies expressed unhappiness at the situation. These women are being told that they are not listening to their baby's cries and therefore not being a "true" APer. Yet with some of these post if they did it the "only" AP way stated by some posts their children would be miserable (Dylan being the best but not only example). I agree with Tenne that it is used WAY too frequently and too soon amongst the general populus.

That all being said and after thoroughly reading the posts I must change my original answer. I said I tried CIO but couldn't do it. I was thinking only in terms of sleeping. We did CIO with the carseat when DS went through a stage at 9 months of hating the carseat. Since I could not put my life on complete hold until he got over it or grew out of the seat he had to learn that even though I would be there for him I couldn't give him what he wanted. I would talk to him the whole time and reach back and pat his head and offer him toys. It took three episodes before he stopped. Now he is completely happy in the carseat. I firmly believe that he was expressing an opinion of unhappiness at being confined but realized that it wasn't hurting or killing him to be there and throwing a fit was not going to change the fact that every time we got in the car he would have to go in the carseat. He got over it and is NOT permanently damaged or less trusting of me for it.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

double post, again


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

irishprincess71 wrote:

Quote:

if you don't raise your children exactly the way we tell you to do it you are doing it wrong and going to ruin your children for life."
Wow, what post even implied that? I hope not one of mine. I've bent over backwards trying to avoid exactly that kind of accusation.

Quote:

the idea of AP is to listen to your children's cries, then who are we as outside observes to tell a mother that she didn't understand her child's cry
WIth that in mind, any response a parent deems necessary, from spanking to "blanket training", falls under the umbrella of ap. Ap cannot mean all things to all people.

Quote:

They have no other form of communication. Just because they communicate unhappiness doesn't mean they want or need a parent's intervention.
What about a parents loving attention? I think children always have a right to love and attention from their parents. In the example you gave with the 2 year old crying on the floor refusing bedtime, you seem to think the choice is "No response" or "Let them lie there screaming until they pass out". Just because a toddler is being unreasonable, doesn't mean they don't deserve patience and understanding. Personally, I think toddlerhood is the most difficult stage with any parenting approach. With ap, I would probably try to help them regain some control, offering small choices to see if that gained cooperation (Do you want these pajama's or these?), trying to offer some positive incentives (When you get on pajama's, we can read any story you like), or at worst, validate how they while helping them move along with their routine. Not responding or ignoring them completely wouldn't feel supportive of our attachment at all.

Quote:

We did CIO with the carseat when DS went through a stage at 9 months of hating the carseat. Since I could not put my life on complete hold until he got over it or grew out of it he had to "suck it up." I would talk to him the whole time and reach back and pat his head and offer him toys.
Do you really consider that CIO? Do you disagree with my definition of it or is there some part of what you did that I don't understand? It sounds like you were responding to him the entire time.

I also think babies have a right to protest and cry about things they hate. Who said otherwise?

Do babies cry for a reason? Do babies need a response to their cries? Do babies have a fundamental right to love and attention from their parents whenever they want it? How can you answer "no" and still be within the framework of attachment parenting?


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## alexa07 (Mar 27, 2003)

I can't find my exact other post (I think it maybe was in the thread piglet had to delete). But what I think I said about the Nightwaking forum was that it shows that many parents who co-sleep are frustrated by the lack of sleep. I believe I also said that those parents have made a choice that the night-time interaction with their child makes the lack of sleep worth it.

They have weighed the good and the bad on the scales and chosen to co-sleep believing strongly that the benefits outweigh any problems. I think that they have made the right choice for them.

I, for me and my family, certainly saw the benefits of co-sleeping. But I also felt that learning to sleep on ones own was important in a culture where one did not go from their parents bedtoom to their spouses.

Thus my compromise was to allow my kids to learn to fall asleep on their own but once they did to have an open bed policy.

I also did this sleep training young. Which I totally understand many would disagree with. I felt that based on studies I saw, the younger it was done, the easier it would be on the baby (remember I only allowed crying after a child had bf as much as they wanted.) Based on what happened in my case I believe this was true, for my kids, in my family. I would not want anyone else to do this if they were not comfortable with it.

BTY, did you see my post where a co-sleeper was very upset and said she wanted to try CIO, and I suggested that she not make this decision when she was so upset and felt for the most part that CIO was wrong. I suggested she get and listen to the advice of co-sleeping Mama's! I don't think anyone should engage in CIO if they do not feel it is the right way for their family.


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## Solange (Apr 10, 2002)

I wish Dr. Sears was here to give his 2 cents on this very matter, so I thought I would try to bring him to us through words form some of his books/site....
don't know if this will help anything....

From Dr. Sears:

a tired couples journey of a consistant night waker:
........tired parents let little one resettle himself before responding immediatley-but put no time limit on how long to let him cry and set no rigid rules on "not giving in." If the cries hit the red alert button they responded. Every night they waited a bit longer and when they did comfort their little one they gave "it's ok message." They also increased their daytime attachment to little one. And they used their baby as their barometer to the method they used, pulling back their nightitme weaning anytime he became more distant or showed daytime upset.

Sleep problems in babies-and adults- have reached epidemic proportions. There are now sleep-disorder centers in nearly every major city, yet the same forced-sleep techniques continue.

"nighttime responsiveness sends your child the message "We care about you at night, just as we care about you during the day.

"up to age three or so, crying once or twice at night is not uncommon. Everyone wakes during the night-when a child wakes and cries it may mean he is experiencing seperation anxiety."

*AP is a starter style.* There may be medical or family circumstances why you are unable to practice all of these baby B's. Attachment parenting implies first opening your mind and heart to the individual needs of your baby, and eventually you will develop the wisdom on how to make on-the-spot decisions on what works best for both you and your baby. Do the best you can with the resources you have - that's all your child will ever expect of you. These baby B's help parents and baby get off to the right start. Use these as starter tips to work out your own parenting style - one that fits the individual needs of your child and your family. Attachment parenting helps you develop your own personal parenting style.

*AP is an approach, rather than a strict set of rules.* It's actually the style that many parents use instinctively. Parenting is too individual and baby too complex for there to be only one way. The important point is to get connected to your baby, and the baby B's of attachment parenting help. Once connected, stick with what is working and modify what is not. You will ultimately develop your own parenting style that helps parent and baby find a way to fit - the little word that so economically describes the relationship between parent and baby.

*co-sleeping issue*
The physiological effects of sleep-sharing are finally being studied in sleep laboratories that are set up to mimic, as much as possible, the home bedroom. Over the past few years, nearly a million dollars of government research money has been devoted to sleep-sharing research. These studies have all been done on mothers and infants ranging from two to five months in age. Here are the preliminary findings based on mother-infant pairs studied in the sleep-sharing arrangement versus the solitary-sleeping arrangement (Elias 1986, McKenna 1993, Fleming 1994; Mosko 1994):

1. Sleep-sharing pairs showed more synchronous arousals than when sleeping separately. When one member of the pair stirred, coughed, or changed sleeping stages, the other member also changed, often without awakening.

2. Each member of the pair tended to often, but not always, be in the same stage of sleep for longer periods if they slept together.

3. Sleep-sharing babies spent less time in each cycle of deep sleep. Lest mothers worry they will get less deep sleep; preliminary studies showed that sleep-sharing mothers didn't get less total deep sleep.

4. Sleep-sharing infants aroused more often and spent more time breastfeeding than solitary sleepers, yet the sleep-sharing mothers did not report awakening more frequently.

5. Sleep-sharing infants tended to sleep more often on their backs or sides and less often on their tummies, a factor that could itself lower the SIDS risk.

6. A lot of mutual touch and interaction occurs between the sleep-sharers. What one does affects the nighttime behavior of the other.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

apmamma, thank you! May I ask which book/edition you are using?

I'm not sure how much we are allowed to post due to copyright laws. I'll summarize my edition of The Baby Book, which says:

The two most important aspects of nighttime attachment parenting are 1) organizing and mellowing your baby during the day and 2) sleeping close to your baby at night.

He goes on to describe ways to get the baby to sleep, with sections titled :calming down, wearing down, nursing down, fathering down, nestling down, rocking down, and a bed on wheels (driving to sleep).

He then goes on to describe CIO in much the way he seems to advocate it above. He gives a laundry list of reasons why even mild CIO hurts attachment, and reasons to avoid it.

One quote: "Even an occasional incorrect response (for example, offering to feed a baby who only wants to be held) is better than no response, because it encourages your baby to keep working with you".

He also says "The style of parenting called "self soothing" which is creeping into the "Lets have babies conveniently mindset, emphasizes teaching babies techniques of how to soothe themselves--by leaving them alone or setting them up to devise their own methods--rather than allowing babies to rely on mother or father."

There was actually another thread about the problem of Dr. Sears contradicting his own definition of attachment parenting in various articles and publications.

The example by Sears at the top of your article doesn't sound attachment based at all. Letting a baby go without response until their cries "hit the red alert button" is something Sears specifically stresses to avoid in my publications, for the obvious reason that it encourages babies to associate "getting a response" with "hysterical screaming", short circuiting their need to develop other, calmer ways of signalling for attention.

Maybe his popularity has caused him to play around with his idea of ap, making it more amenable to the mainstream? At any rate, Ferber could have given that description of the parents withholding a response to sleep train their baby, and that is really sad coming from Sears.


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## alexa07 (Mar 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by apmamma_ *co-sleeping issue*
> 
> 3. Sleep-sharing babies spent less time in each cycle of deep sleep. Lest mothers worry they will get less deep sleep; preliminary studies showed that sleep-sharing mothers didn't get less total deep sleep.
> 
> ...


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

alexa--some of the research suggests the sleeping pattern described in apmammas post is actually better for babies than deep uninterrupted sleep, and may reduce the chance of SIDS.

There are other research articles which suggest that babies are hard wired to sleep near other humans, helping them regulate their sleep cycles, attune to the breathing patterns of the nearby sleeping adult, and wake (or partially awake) more due to the movements and changes in breathing patterns around theml. It is thought that undisturbed, "sensory deprived" sleep allows babies to slip into an unnaturally deep, stimulant free sleep that may increase their chances of SIDS, simply due to immature breathing/sleep pattern that are not designed for such an experience.

Apparently much of this research comes from studies on co sleeping cultures with much lower incidence of SIDS compared to cultures in which babies are more likely to sleep alone.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

alexa I want to agree with you that there is another side to this issue which does discourage parents from co sleeping.

I mentioned in another post a very well publicized study last year, I think by the CDC, which announced co sleeping increased the chance of infant death by a shockingly high percentage. Later, reviews of the study found serious flaws, which rendered it nil in scientific circles (Second hand accounts were accepted as case studies. No attempt was made to distinguish whether the baby died on a sleeping or non sleeping surface, whether the adult even knew the baby was present in the bed, whether the adult was taking drugs or alchohol, whether the person who overlayed the baby was the parent, a sibling, or non related adult etc.). But the damage was definitely done and many parents heard the awful pronouncement about the "dangers of the family bed" before anyone stopped to see what the researchers actually recorded.

Then a few months ago Dr. Sears had his name on an article in (I think) BabyTalk magazine, about the family bed. The very first statement in the article began with something like "The safest place for baby to sleep is in a crib." Ap parents were outraged and demanded to know why he of all people would publish a statment like that. The next issue published an apology from him. Apparently he didn't proofread his own article, and someone "slipped that in". But who reads the editors column? The damage was done.

It's a wonder anyone co sleeps in this country.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

Even the studies quoted by Dr. Sear's show that babies aroused more and slept less deeply when co-sleeping.
True. However, the scientists who performed these studies (and others) believe that frequent arousal and light sleep is normal and, importantly, healthy for babies. In fact, there is a credible hypothesis linking deep sleep and insufficient arousal to Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. Given the complex neurological mechanisms underlying something so apparently benign as sleep (which involves voluntary paralysis, cycling through various states of sub-conciousness, monitoring of the external environment, etc.), not to mention breathing (which requires the brain to detect rising levels of blood carbon dioxide concentration and trigger the diaphragm to contract), and the neurologically immature state of the human infant (relative to both human adults and other primate infants), I feel this hypothesis is definitely worth considering.

It is, in fact, why the thought of my baby sleeping alone in a crib scares me (...but then maybe I'm just a wimp







).

Quote:

I saw even more dramatic evidence in the studies that I read that babies did not sleep as well when they co-slept and also had more trouble falling asleep.
How did the researchers define "slept well"? I don't think it is appropriate to apply adult sleep patterns and cycling behaviour to infants, whose brains are as yet not fully developed. I was also wondering if you had the reference info for these studies (names of authors?). I ask this because when I was doing my own literature searches on the subject I had a hard time finding any other than Jim McKenna's work and I have a collection of references for my own personal database (yup, I'm a nerd!).

I just LOVE a good scientific debate! (where's the geek smiley?) :LOL)


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## Faith (Nov 14, 2002)

Wow, this is quite the thread. Honestly, I do not even have time to read the whole thing, let alone debate the issue (I can't believe we are debating CIO at MDC!!!), but I just wanted to throw out one comment.

This is NATURAL family living. Picture yourself living as close to and as in sync with nature as possible. Picture Eve in the garden or Native Americans or even cave people- whoever you want that brings up that mental picture of harmony and natural living.

Are they building separate boxes to put their babies into to scream at night? I don't think so. I think they are sleeping on their sides with their babies latched on, or very close to it.

I think bad things happen when you go against nature, like SIDS (aka CRIB death). If a baby has a certain amount of deep sleep when sleeping with his mother, than a baby is MEANT to have that exact ammount of deep sleep. It is NOT too little. The crib babies are getting too MUCH, not the other way around. (Reminds me of BF vs FF. Breastmilk may have less iron, but is the exact right ammount and nature's perfect balance. More does not necessairly mean better!)

I do not believe God/nature made babies to cry for no reason. If they are crying at night because they are alone and scared, then that is obviously happening for a reason. If they were meant to sleep alone, they would be okay with it and would not need to CIO. If we were meant to force them to sleep alone even though they hate it, I don't think they would have the ability to cry (and alert every predator that they were alone and in need).

I know we are no longer primative, but obviously babies needs have not changed. (Continuum Concept is a great book on this, but I think common sence comes into play here as well.) Basic needs such as food, comfort, love, etc. do not go away because we are in a high-tech culture.

I think we need to remember what is and is not natural.
This is so basic and simple. Of course it is more natural for a momma and babe to sleep together!


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## Solange (Apr 10, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by heartmama_
*apmamma, thank you! May I ask which book/edition you are using?
The example by Sears at the top of your article doesn't sound attachment based at all. Letting a baby go without response until their cries "hit the red alert button" is something Sears specifically stresses to avoid in my publications, for the obvious reason that it encourages babies to associate "getting a response" with "hysterical screaming", short circuiting their need to develop other, calmer ways of signalling for attention.

*
I got all of this info from The Baby book(the top article)
The Disicpline book
and from his site directly.

In all his books it says "may quote brief passages in review of book"...we are reviewing these subjects in his book









The top article in the baby book is discussing using baby as a barometer, and with an older baby (18 months) and a mother and father in a sleep deprived situation.
If Dr. Sears were discussing this technique with a baby under 12 months I would most definatley agree with you.

He says:
_They also increased their daytime attachment to little one. And they used their baby as their barometer to the method they used, pulling back their nightitme weaning anytime he became more distant or showed daytime upset_

Which to me clearly indicates AP parents by reading their little ones cues but still trying to maintain a balance in their family.

Balance and boundraries are a huge part of AP as well as having a happy well rested mother, that said AP still does not support CIO put them in close the door and let them cry or CIO _with_ responsiveness to a "clock" or to the methods of any sleep baby training.


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## meglet (May 23, 2003)

This is my first post here, so....

We never let dd (2) cry it out. She was born with bilateral clubfeet and had to endure four weeks of casting (painful) starting when she was 2 weeks old and we had enough crying from her then to last us the rest of her life. It was heartbreaking, but in the end her feet are perfect! DH and I decided then never to let her cry, we worried enough what that traumatic treatment would do to her at such a young age (We chose a non-surgical treatment for her and traveled to Iowa, living in a Ronald McDonald House for a month to have her feet corrected by the leader in the field). It was awesome, when someone would say something to dh about her sleeping in our room (we can't co-sleep because of the brace she still wears, but she slept in a co-sleeper and now is in a crib still in our room), he would say something like, You go through what we did and then try to tell us to let her cry. Luckily, my mom is totally supportive of all we do. Anyhow, that is why we don't let her cry...

Megan
with Olivia (5/1/01)
and ???? (EDD 7/20/03)


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## cinnamonamon (May 2, 2003)

T I just wanted to say that I've really enjoyed this thread! It has been very informative & whether a person is for or against some form of CIO, it gives us all more information -- which I think is a VERY important thing to do.

Thanks!!


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## alexa07 (Mar 27, 2003)

I have stated why CIO was right for my children in many threads. Thus I believe what I have done is very AP, in other words doing what best met MY children's needs. I do not believe anyone who does not believe in CIO should ever engage in this practice.

I, however, do object to the idea that you shouldn't even discuss the issue on an AP board. Refusing to debate a subject is never good.


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## tara (Jan 29, 2002)

First off, I don't think anyone should be allowed to outright condemn CIO unless their child has slept like mine. That said, I have one of the worst-sleeping babies the world has ever known, and while we resorted to nightweaning (which entailed letting him cry for up to 15 minutes at a time but in our arms with our soothing words and love) we have not done what I would consider CIO. I have never abandoned him to cry alone (well, like many other posters here, I have 'let' my child cry in the car). I'm proud of the fact that we haven't done CIO, but I have been sorely tempted. I can understand why some folks would resort to it out of desperation.

It's harder for me to accept its use as sleep training in a baby's early weeks or months. I don't buy the argument that it's easier on the baby at that age - I think perhaps it's easier on the parent because an older child will struggle more against giving up something beloved (nighttime attention).

And, Irishmommy said:

Quote:

I also "sleep trained" both my dds to sleep through the night at 6 weeks. I've had this discussion here about it before, and I'm not getting into it again.
Then why'd you bring it up? Since you did, would you elaborate what your "sleep training" entailed?


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

tara, my ds did sleep much the way you describe your ds. He had several major surgeries as a baby. He was coping with a lot of trauma, grief, and fear. The prolonged period under sedation, IMO, put some kind of "glitch" in his wake/REM cycle. He truly seemed incapable of "finding his way to sleep", if that makes sense. It took constant external stimulation to get him to sleep and keep him there (driving, rocking, singing, patting). He woke up screaming all night long(and was right next to me--he would start the screaming while still asleep!). On top of that, because all of his surgeries were heart related, he had poor circulation, and any crying turned him a ghastly blue and grey color. We knew of two heart babies who died after hysterical crying turned them "blue", went unconscious and could not be revived. It was a horrible, awful fear, and it hung over us every time he so much as whimpered. I think he did need to feel safe crying in my arms--he had a lot to cry about. But we were always frantically stopping him. I don't think any of us slept for two years.

alexa, I don't want to see any topic banned. I do believe strongly in what Mothering represents, and the support it gives to parents. I wonder if it really is helpful, considering the wealth of support out there for mainstream parenting, to actually "debate" an issue like CIO, or spanking, or parent directed feeding. I think it tends to divide this community, casting doubts rather than offering support on fundamental aspects of ap.

apmamma thank you I'll go re check. I still think his example contradicts his basic tenants. It is subjective to believe babies need a response at 2 months and not at 14 months to cries. As I said before, Sears often can frustrate with his own contradictions. His description is much more like CIO than it isn't. The parents are waiting for the baby to "cry it out and sleep". I assume he is hoping parents will do this version of CIO rather than give up completely on any response if they are sleep deprived. But it does not sound like an attachment based method of sleep, with the forced separation, and intentional delay of response to cries. I think other ap authors would disagree with his example as supportive of attachment. I do think it is better than the alternative of full blown CIO, of course. Maybe that is what Sears thought too. He also wrote a section on how to spank "correctly" if parents choose to do that. Sometimes I think he tries to be all things to all people, at times to the point of blatant contradictions to attachment based solutions.


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## sozobe (Aug 5, 2002)

I think part of what Sears does is to try to make sure he is not preaching exclusively to the choir. If there are people who are predisposed for cultural other reasons to spanking or CIO, I think it's better that they be drawn in and at least mitigate the ill effects, than to take one look and put the book down in favor of "Babywise" or some other decidedly NON AP book. And I do know some people who started out decidedly non-AP, read "The Baby Book", and changed their minds. From my perspective, that is one of the most valuable functions a book can serve -- the ones who know they want to be AP can find that info any number of places.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I don't think we are truly "debating" CIO in this thread. I don't see anybody saying "y'all should do CIO". What I see is a group of women respectfully discussing what THEY do and why they do it, reminding us that there are spectrums of . And that they respect the AP nature of this board.

It was public knowledge here that I had a scheduled cesarian birth, loved it, and would do it again in a heartbeat. I think that's pretty much the antithesis of an AP birth. However, I have always felt welcomed and accepted and loved here at MDC. I think homebirths are awesome, medical interventions too frequent and too often unnecessary, and would give my 100% support to any friend of mine who wanted a natural birth. But for reasons that are too long to get into (again) it just wasn't for me.

That's why I don't like to see any hints or suggestions that ANY mama here at MDC is "not AP enough" to be here, or that a subject is not worth debating here. I would venture to say that our discussion of CIO would not be found on a mainstream board.

If anything, threads like this (when conducted in a civil manner) help me to become less judgemental, something I hope we are all striving to do on a daily basis.


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## tenne (Sep 12, 2002)

I am very happy for this discussion. I can't discuss our sleep issues on the other board I partipate in because after all my advocating for cosleeping and against CIO I would be both discredited and ridiculed. I often read the nightwaking board on here for ideas, but nothing was working and I felt ashamed to let her cry at all. I also often feel like I shouldn't mind that she wakes often and that because I do I am not deserving to be a mother. It helps to know that I am not the only one who is against CIO but have had nothing else work and can no longer handle the constant nightwaking. I don't seee anyone advocating for CIO, as I think of it, but instead acknowledging that there is a middle ground.


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

OT WARNING:
Perfectmama wrote

Quote:

This is NATURAL family living. Picture yourself living as close to and as in sync with nature as possible. Picture Eve in the garden or Native Americans or even cave people- whoever you want that brings up that mental picture of harmony and natural living.
hmmm. I never connect AP with natural family living. Driving, flying etc are all "against nature" and we still do them, we are still living. Bad things happen. We have the wonderful ability to grow and work both in harmony with machines and medicine and with nature.

I also have to laugh whenever someone calls a crib a "prison" or "box". I call it a "bed", because that's what it is, a bed! A prison is a place to lock someone up. Now if I used the crib that way, yes, it would be a prison, but I don't! Perceptions are the key.

NOw, I must go an awake my little Goo as she is still conked out from her morning nap (after 3 hours)


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## Solange (Apr 10, 2002)

I was sooo hoping not to get sucked into this thread but I am and here I sit when I should be napping with ds....









so Heartmamma
Looked into the disicipline book and you are right Sears does give a *safe* way to spank







*BUT* on the bottom of the page is a footnote that says they are firmly *against* spanking. OTOH I do understand what you are saying about Sears and you are right it is frustrating.
Thank you for enlighting me....

I also agree with Sears terms of using AP tools to help you on your parenting jpurney and to not use them all makes you no less "AP" or using them all makes you more"AP." BUT in these listing of tools there is *no where* stated a tool for CIO-gently or not- and no tool for spanking....so if you want to go by Sears cio and spanking are not in the AP package.

But *two things* I have discussed time and time again is that _most_ mothers who decide to follow their hearts and instincts as a human being, have firmly agreed that CIO and spanking are not included in the "AP" package wether you crib sleep and breastfeed, or bottle feed and co-sleep.....kwim? These are irl mothers.

Every family has to do what is right for theirs and mothers need to follow their hearts. Ideally in the AP life we all need to embrace the ideas of the "tools' we are given and use them to our families benefit.

If you stray off the path of AP, then you and only you, have the repercussions of your actions to deal with.

If you come here(to this AP forum) and post that CIO works for you and you embrace it, of course there will be a debate and you as the poster need to be prepared for the replys that will follow from your post. People here have an opinion on this subject, for good reason, just some can say it more eloquently than others and due to the anonymity of the web some can be more harsh than maybe they should be or pass judgement without understanding the whole story.

Don't know why I typed all this, but I have to get it out and get some sleep.....taking off my activist cap for now and going back to what I like best my mamma hat....
good day all....


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

I do not consider what I did not attachment parenting, nor Tenne for that matter. I am attached to my child because I birthed her gently, co-slept from the start, breastfed, responded sensitively to her cries, and wore her. In the beginning wants and needs are one and the same. At some point though, they differentiate and the child becomes more able to wait for a response. I think sometimes their cries for attention may be a habit. Like in Sears' example of an adult waking at 2:00 and receiving a burger every time. If burgers are your thing, you'd keep waking up at 2:00 am. With an older baby, if nightwaking is a habit, the fussing for attention may be a want rather than a need. In my case, as the parent, I felt that dd's need for a sane, patient mother who was not going to get so angry and resentful as to want to haul off and whack her one seriously outweighed her need to have me stay with her in the bed all night long after I'd been with her all day long (or at work for 8 hours while she was with my sister). Her need to have another primary careprovider who was attached to her and a family member rather than going to a daycare setting also outweighed her need to call me back every few minutes to every hour until I went to bed.

I really feel for Tenne and parents like her who feel they cannot do some form of CIO (it really isn't CIO, but it's hard to talk about this without calling it that) if they are to be attached parents. I don't think it is the same as saying you discipline gently with spanking. Although, I do think a parent can say they discipline gently even if they screw up and lose it sometimes. We are all only human after all, and often have childhoods to get past. Just like a vegetarian who eats chicken or fish or whatever once or twice a year can still say s/he is a vegetarian, but I digress.

I disagree that crying and fussing both need to be responded to the same, or that fussing should be responded to so it does escalate into crying. It's true for my tiny baby, but it was definitely not the same with my then 12 month old spirited babe. Her fussing was soooo different from her crying even someone who didn't know her would have been able to tell the difference. I also found that if I responded to her often she would escalate whereas if I didn't she would calm down. She's always been like that. I've found that I have to be very controlled in my responses to her so she won't overreact and become needlessly hysterical. She uses me as a barometer and has difficulty tempering her responses, so I help her with that. I know this because we are attached and I have figured it out thru trial and error.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

.


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## tenne (Sep 12, 2002)

Sofiamomma - Thank you for your post. It helps to know that someone understands where I am coming from.
I have found that sometimes I get a bit too involved in the philosophy and forget that everything needs to be based on our life, not a set of rules.
What I have realized is that whether or not dd and I are attached is something only we can determine. Others can say whether I am AP enough or at all but that has nothing to do with my attachment to my child. And that is what is important - not that I am AP, but that I am raising my daughter the way I think is best. And I do think it is best that we are attached, and I think that AP has some very good guidelines to help facilitate that attachment. But I don't think that I need to be labeled AP or do everything by the book to maintain a close, attached relationship with my child. In the end all that is important is my family's feelings on the matter, and I (and dh) are the only ones that can determine what is best for us. The more I have read here and thought on this subject the more I have realized that my uneasiness about allowing her to cry was not because I didn't think it was the right thing to do, but because I was worried about meeting certain standards. In this case trying to be AP kept me from listening to my instincts and my child's needs. So I need to worry less about what I am and more about what I am doing. These threads have really helped me in that respect, so I am glad to have read them, even though some ideas expressed go against AP.


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## JayGee (Oct 5, 2002)

No, but not "never". I tried it once. He never fell asleep. I never tried it again - it hurt me too badly to not comfort him as he wailed. Ds still has a hard time falling asleep, but letting him cry himself to sleep is not the answer for us. I think of how much it hurts me to listen to him cry, and it must hurt him so much more to be crying that hard. It's not for us.


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## rianna (Jul 28, 2002)

I have never let my baby to cry alone... ever.

Now that she is 14mo I can see her mind working in different ways. If she throws a tantrum I will let her cry but she is not really crying.

My baby is a horrible sleeper and will nurse all night long. My dh and I had to do something to make this stop... I was going crazy and I did not want to stop sleeping with her. So.... sometimes at night (usualy the middle) she can wake up and my dh will roll over with her and she will cry... but not for very long. There were a couple times when I was not here and she cries for 20 minutes!!! But dh was holding her and comforting her. She does cry in the carseat and there is nothing I can do if I am the only one in the car and driving. Other then that..... no CIO.

I had a dd 10 years ago. I was a 16 year old mother and did not know much. I was married and my exdh said that she needed to CIO. That was the way. I will never forgive myself for letting her cry, alone in her crib.... my head under a pillow crying just as hard. It is just not right (my opinion)!! My older dd has always wanted to sleep with me... she never feels safe.... her nightmares were exream... she needs allot more then my bfed, co-sleeping, never CIO child. I will never alow my children to feel that way again.


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

No, never. I believe that CIO is one of the worst types of neglect.

My child has never, ever been left alone to cry and never will be. I'd rock him to sleep until he's 16 years old before I'd ever leave him alone to cry for me.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Yeah, I think it's hard for someone who's never walked a mile in another person's shoes to understand their points of view.
When you and your child are sooo sleep deprived that is seriously affecting your and your child's health - both mentally and physically - what is the healthier choice? To risk abuse, neglect, and the loonie bin or helping your child learn how to stay asleep, reducing the risk of mental and physical problems due to serious sleep deprivation?
Unless you've been there, it's hard to fathom.
Let's use an abstract example: a single mother of two who is forced to work ten hour days to put food on the table. An infant/almost toddler, who wakes her every half hour all night long... you can't even function enough to take care of your children, let alone work efficiently enough to keep your job. Honestly, what would you do? Go on welfare? Start a gentle sleep training program? Risk a week of "some" CIO for the longterm health of you and your family?
It's so easy to judge other people's decisions if you've never been where they're at.


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

I think many of us have been in that sleep deprived state and still wouldn't do CIO. My ds has never slept through the night (he's 2) and I seriously doubt he ever will. He has sleep disorders (runs in dh's family), plus is very spirited. He goes weeks with only 4 hours (with waking in between) per night and no naps because he just doesn't want to sleep. Of course this makes the sleep disorder problem much worse and he sleeps poorly for a long time afterward. I still won't CIO because I don't believe it is the right thing to do. Period! I don't think that means I am judging others by my choice, I am only making the choice I feel is right for my family. I also don't think its fair to say "if you'd been where they're at you'd do it too". That just isn't true.

Laurie


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## dreemn (Apr 13, 2002)

I think it is fair to say what candiland has said, because we only know how WE would react in any situation, given the benefit of our own experiences and perceptions- we cant tell why people do the things they do merely by observing them- it goes deeper than that.


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## Embee (May 3, 2002)

I voted, No, never.

DS has been in his own room/crib since early on. DS is, and pretty much always has been, a regular night waker. From moment one, we were committed to responding for as long as he needed us too. He's nearly 2 1/2 now and our philosophy remains the same. It's not always easy, I am indeed tired, but strangely, my body has learned to cope pretty well through shear repetition. Naps, taking care of myself otherwise (eating well, etc), time-off via *Dad and DS days* go a long way in helping out.


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## MamaOui (Aug 9, 2002)

Jumping in to say that I have had serious sleep issues with ds#2 and I have not resorted to CIO (which I define as leaving my ds alone to cry), but I understand why some people choose to. I say walk a mile in someone else's shoes. I like the example candiland gave. If I didn't have the support from my dh that I get, then maybe I'd be posting here saying that I've tried CIO.


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## telekinetic pyro (Apr 19, 2002)

I tried CIO once when ds was about 5 months old. I left him in his crib to cry. I had to force myself to leave and not go, then I threw up from the strain of fighting my instincts. I went and got him and vowed never to do that again.


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## mum2sarah (Apr 23, 2003)

I voted no, not ever. I do not agree with CIO, but I would not condemn another mother for doing it. I just think that most people who use CIO are not educated on the matter and feel it is a necessary evil to get their children to sleep when *they* want them to, not necessarily when the *child* is truly sleepy. I can see those who allow a short time of CIO after researching and deciding it is what is best for their family, although I still feel it goes against the whole AP package. Still I respect a parent's decision...

But what I can't understand are the people who have these preconceived notions about when babies should sleep and for how long. A poster said something about resorting to CIO after the baby kept fussing at her 7:00 bed time and went on to say that as an adult she needed sleep but not 12 straight hours of it. What makes us think babies need 12 straight hours? Maybe some do, but I tend to thing 7:00 is an EXTREMELY early bed time; no wonder the babe in question was waking. If I put dd to bed at 7, DH would only see her for one hour each evening, and half that time would be spent eating dinner. I can't imagine a baby truly being tired that early. Our 14 month old dd goes to bed between 9:30 and 10:30PM and sleeps until about 7:30AM, with a few nursings in the night that she never even opens her eyes for. She takes one two hour nap in the afternoon. She transitioned from two naps a day to one with no doing on my part. I feel that when she is tired, she'll sleep. No tears are needed, just the warmth of my embrace and the milk from my breasts. And as she's gotten older, she has started unlatching before she's completely asleep and rolling over to sleep on her own. They'll learn if you are patient and let them do it on their own time table.

And to those who say cosleeping moms suffer from lack of sleep, I feel this is just baloney. It is the quality of sleep not the quantity that makes you feel refreshed in the morning. I could nurse dd every other hour and still feel fine the next morning because all I had to do was lean over and give her my breast, hardly even opening my eyes. I was way more sleep deprived when I was pregnant and woke up with a jolt to heartburn or leg cramps or had to trudge across the house in the middle of the night to empty my bladder. I think the purpose of the nightwaking/cosleeping board is a place to go to discuss cosleeping logistics such as the size of bed you need, or when dc is teething or sick and thus waking a lot, or making the "H" position, or when DH disapproves of cosleeping, or when you get criticism from just about everyone in real life, which I think we cosleepers suffer more from than you CIOers, no offense. If we seem defensive, maybe it's because we are sick of hearing the same, "babies need to learn to sleep on their own" argument that we hear ALL the time.

Babies were designed to wake at night. They get up to a third of their nourishment from night feedings, and the frequent stimulation at the breast helps allow for a nice period of natural infertility that nature designed for our bodies to recouperate from having a baby before having another pregnancy. I did not get my first postpartum period until 12 months. The average for "ecological breastfeeding," which includes frequent night nursing is 14.5 months. I am curious as to when fertility returned to moms who use CIO...


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## earthpapi (May 29, 2003)

i voted no, never i have a almost 2 yo and a 7wo and can never see myself doing that. there are time when he has cried for a long time but not because i thought it was best for him. i will always do my best not to let them cry. this is just my $0.02


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## samsara (Jan 4, 2003)

since this is such a long thread, i hope to be forgiven for not giving proper credit to those i quote -- i simply don't remember who said what! i do agree with whoever said, "cry it *out*? what is *out*, exactly?" because i think there's a distinct difference between letting a baby cry for a short period (like, a minute or so) and crying it *out*, which essentially seems to me like letting the baby "get over it."

ds cries in the car, pretty much every time we get in it. well, i've got stuff to do, and we're attached and he goes everywhere i go, so he's gotta ride in the car. and he's crying because he doesn't like to be restrained, which means that without unstrapping him, i cannot make him stop. stopping and unstrapping him is futile because as soon as i restrain him again, the screaming starts again. there's only one thing i can do for him -- unstrap him -- and i cannot do that, so he must cry. i'm not punishing him, i'm not teaching him a lesson, it just *is what it is*, an unfortunate situation that breaks my heart. i've modified my driving; i bought a wire cart with wheels and i now do all of my grocery shopping on foot so i don't have to put him in the car as much and i try to walk everywhere i possibly can. but to visit family, or to venture out to target or something else not within walking distance, he's gotta be strapped in, ergo he's gotta cry. know this: i hate it. it hurts me. i feel tremendously bad when he cries and i hate putting him in a situation where he's hurting. but, as i see it, there's no choice in this situation. an adult in the backseat does no good because it's not about boredom or loneliness for him -- it's about restraint. if someone has a suggestion, i'm happy to hear it but please don't say, "don't take him in the car," because there just isn't a choice sometimes -- that's the kind of world we live in. and the things i do in the car are for the betterment/survival/comfort of our family, of which he is a part: sometimes, we gotta get in the car to buy toilet paper or soap or to visit grandma or get a haircut or pay the gas bill ad nausaeum, and i'm not asking him to "get over it," i'm asking him to "get through it." i don't know how else to deal with it.

all that said, he rarely cries at home; i have the built-in night alarm where i anticipate his waking and am able to pick him up before he starts to cry (he sleeps in a sidecar), we are together and slinging most of the day, when he's not quietly observing he's latched on or sleeping. if he starts to fuss, i talk to him, shift his position, feed him, play with him, or change him. he naturally falls asleep in the evenings between 830 and 900; i have successfully put him down without him being fully asleep two times (he's only 11 weeks) but would never do it if i didn't think he was on the verge, as it were. never would i just plop him in his crib, wide awake, attempting to schedule him -- that's not my decision, it's his body's decision. research shows that a human body responds, with allowance, to the earth's natural rhythms (circadian) and naturally shuts off when it's dark, so logic dictates that he will fall asleep eventually. and infants are programmed to wake several times at night, anyway, for nourishment/warmth/comfort/reassurance, so my body postpartum is programmed to satisfy those needs. am i more tired now tired now than before he was born? i don't think so; i think mum2sarah was right when she said she lost more sleep pregnant than she does as a mother -- that's true for me, too. i was up more than half the night when i was pregnant, whether it was peeing or muscle spasms or hunger or heartburn or just plain insomnia, it wasn't a pleasant time. i hardly wake up now, i just reach over and latch him on for the ten or so minutes that he needs, then i put him back down; this is TOPS twice a night. i cannot imagine walking down the hall to a separate room to go through a whole ritual and _really_ have my sleep disrupted, which is where i see all this new-mother-sleep-deprivation propaganda coming from. i'm sure there are co-sleepers who are sleep deprived, but i'm talking averages here.

anyway, back on track: even good old dr. sears says, "[sic]babies cry; sometimes, we cannot make them stop. what we can do is *not let them cry alone.*" i think that if you offer comfort to your crying baby, whether they stop or not, you are not practicing CIO. if you are willfully allowing your baby to cry alone, in another room, in order to "train" him/her to adapt to your needs, you're practicing it, whether it's to the ezzo degree or to the ferber degree. i don't think that's what i do in the car because i feel as though i wouldn't do it if i had a choice. maybe parents who practice that at home feel that they don't have a choice, either.


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## telekinetic pyro (Apr 19, 2002)

I wish I could offer you advice on the car crying. Unfortunately, I can't because ds did the same thing. Evnetually, he just outgrew it. Sometimes, distraction would help as he got a little older but putting him in the car seat was often a two person job because he would fight so hard. When he gets a little bigger, I found snacks were a good way to calm him down. If I gave him a banana or some crackers, he would be intent on eating and not thinking about being strapped in. Obviously, that doesn't help you yet because your ds is too little for solids. Now that my ds is forward facing (at 19 months) the carseat is less of a struggle. I don't know if turning him made the difference or just the fact that he was getting older. Good luck


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## turquoise (Oct 30, 2002)

I voted never, but I don't count the late nights when I've walked with the baby for an hour and I need to set her down for 2 min while she's still crying to get a drink of water, use the bathroom, give my back a break for half a second, or whatever. She rarely ever cries unconsoleably, so when she does I really try everything but sometimes my back starts to cry with her.







And then it's only for a moment because I can't bear to hear her cry and not at least try to do something about it.


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

OK, I'll try again. Yes, I am educated. No, I do not have preconceived notions about how much sleep babies need and when, etc. And yes, my daughter really did need that much sleep. I knew that by reading her cues. She is now six and still needs 11 hours a night. When she was one she switched from 2 naps a day to one and she slept 12 hours a night. Now, of course, I am talking about something that happened 5 years ago, so my times and such are approximations I used simply to be able to articulate my story. And just because a 7:00 bedtime would not have fit in with *your* lifestyle and your dh would not have seen much of your dc that does not make it wrong for me and mine. As a single mom I parent a little differently than I might if I were a married SAHM. Also, I did not say that as an adult I needed sleep, but not 12 straight hours. I was not actually concerned with sleep. I was concerned with needing a little alone time. I did not want to be *in the bed* all evening. My dd is *very* social and likes company. She will always choose to socialize over any other activity, including eating and sleeping. Yes, she might fall over asleep dead tired if I let it go that far, but as her parent I feel that that is not healthy and I intervene to help her get the sleep (and food!) she needs. At a year of age she *wanted* me in the bed for her. She preferred my company. I know there are other ways I could have dealt with the situation, letting her stay up, slingling her, etc., but *I* did what worked for our situation, including having my sister watch her while I worked evenings. On the nights she simply *fussed* I went in and comforted her and left and she wound down and went to sleep. I DID NOT LET HER CRY IT OUT. If she cried I gave her what she *needed.* There were nights when I did stay in the bed the whole night after having been with her the whole day because that is what she needed, but by allowing her to fuss a little she was able to fall asleep and stay asleep for several hours most nights. And again we are talking about a toddler. And we are talking about a single mom doing what she needed to avoid anger and resentment toward her child. I also do not believe that the instant repsonses necessary for a wee babe are good for an older babe/toddler, but I guess that's a whole 'nother debate. I guess we can argue til we are blue in the face about what constitutes fussing vs. crying and whether they should be responded to in any situation for any age baby. Suffice it to say I did what I felt was the best thing in the situation I was in with cues I was receiving from my baby and what worked for us as a family, trying to achieve balance and weigh everyone's needs, not from a place of ignorance, convenience, selfishness, or what have you.


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## dreemn (Apr 13, 2002)

ITA, Sofiamomma.

And also if there are a number of children to consider, not just the one, cicumstances may be different.


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## mum2sarah (Apr 23, 2003)

Sorry, Sofiamomma, if I misunderstood your post.







I was not saying that *you* were uneducated. I believe what I said was that a lot of moms who use CIO are not making an educated decision. I guess I interpreted your reference to "fussing" as CIO, and I apologize if that was not accurate. The way I see it is that newborns need a lot of sleep yes, but you said your baby started fussing at her bed time as she got older, and my question simply was, was she really tired that early? It seemed to me that my dd needed less sleep as she got older, so I just wonder if the fussing had to do with not really being sleepy yet.

ITA that small infants have different needs than older babies/toddlers. When my dd was very tiny, I'd nurse her at night at the first sign of awakening. But now that she is 14 months, if she is restless at night, I sometimes see if she will fall back asleep before nursing her, but a yawn and a whimper I feel are different from CIO, and that was a distinction I should have picked up on when reading your post, but I must have lost your true meaning in trudging through all the other posts (long thread). Again I apologize.

I guess the point I was trying to get across is that often parents use CIO because their babies do not fit the pattern of sleep that the *parents* think they should. I have heard moms say they "had" to let their babies CIO because they just would not go to sleep at some prescribed time. I realize now that you have clarified that you do not fall into this category, but my point about such situations remains the same: why not wait until the child really is tired enough to go to sleep gently instead of using CIO to get them to sleep when it's "convenient?" (Again, that is not a question for you, Sofiamomma, but more for the other moms who I have described above--forgive me for my misinterpretation).


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

Hey, no problem, it's okay. Thanks for clarifying. FWIW, she started fussing for me at night after she'd "gone down for the night" from the get go. It just did not become a problem until she was older. When she was little it was just what I needed to do, kwim? Anyway, my frustrations stem from several years worth of defending myself (and since I'm more middle of the road, I get flak from both camps







: ), so I apologize for sounding off in regards to your post. I do see what you are talking about, had blinders on there for a moment. Sorry!


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## mum2sarah (Apr 23, 2003)

You know, that's a good point about getting criticism from both camps. I never thought about that for "middle of the road" moms, but I'm sure that must be absolutely true. Sometimes I'm so caught up in going against the mainstream that I feel like the cruchiest moms are the only ones who get criticism. If you are more in the middle then I guess it's hard to feel like you fit anywhere and that can be frustrating, I'm sure! The one thing I tell those who are critical is, "I know I'm doing what's best for *us.* I read up on things on both sides and the decisions I make are based on not just info. out of a book, but on compatibility with our lifestyle." I think that's the most important thing to remember. Anyhow, I know I'm getting off topic here, but I'm glad we were able to reach an understanding. Thank you for an enlightening discussion.


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## samsara (Jan 4, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by telekinetic pyro_
*I wish I could offer you advice on the car crying. Unfortunately, I can't because ds did the same thing. Evnetually, he just outgrew it. Sometimes, distraction would help as he got a little older but putting him in the car seat was often a two person job because he would fight so hard. When he gets a little bigger, I found snacks were a good way to calm him down. If I gave him a banana or some crackers, he would be intent on eating and not thinking about being strapped in. Obviously, that doesn't help you yet because your ds is too little for solids. Now that my ds is forward facing (at 19 months) the carseat is less of a struggle. I don't know if turning him made the difference or just the fact that he was getting older. Good luck*
thank you. of course, after i wrote this, i was able to drive the 7 miles to target without a peep and he was awake when we arrived! driving home was a totally different story, however; i foolishly got in the bank drive-thru line and he started wailing -- you can't get out of the bank drive-thru, you're trapped! it was painful; my shoulder and neck are killing me from reaching around backwards to stroke his head.

sofiamomma, FWIW, i don't think you are selfish and i think you sound like a great mama; i hope things go well with your new babe and that you continue to get at least marginal time to yourself -- it's so important.


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## Katie65 (May 31, 2003)

I had to pick sometimes.

I did a modified aproach to CIO with my dd Cassidy when she was about 7 months old....though it didn't work in the long run. I mean, it worked initially, within a week she was putting herself to sleep and sleeping thru the night (she slept thru the night already...I used cio to get her to go to sleep initially..I've never let a child cry in the middle of the night)

Anyway..now, at 22 months she's cosleeping...she doesnt' like her room, hasn't since 13 months old...

I don't plan to do any cio with Aidan. I am planning on getting the "no cry sleep solution" book for tips with him, though we will likely cosleep.


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

Well, I put no never, but my first child we let her cry in the crib one night for like, 10 minutes. Then we decided not to ever do it again.
I have always assumed that CIO was the way to get your kids to sleep by ignorning their crys for longer and longer periods of times. To try and "train them".
Now, like someone said before.... babies cry. And you may not beable to find the cause. But I have always tried to find out what was the matter with my kids if they where crying. Sometimes they have to cry for a bit if I am peeing or getting something for someone else, but I talk to them, and try to comfort them from afar. I don't think that that is CIO.

HEATHERH


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## Robinmama (Dec 17, 2001)

My dd is 3 and we never let her CIO. But a good friend who had her baby 10 days before I did ferberized her son when he was 6 months old. I found it heartbreaking, and so did she. She would call me for support while he was screaming and it was really hard to be loving toward her at those times.... but I was, and I'll tell you why.

My friend was raised in a strict household. She is a very orderly person. She was really struggling with motherhood. Her marriage was suffering; she was depressed. Occasionally she would feel rage at her son -- I mean real true rage. My friend is highly intelligent, educated, and she made a decision about what she needed to do to survive parenting her son. I do not agree with her choice -- I *strongly* disagree, in fact. Her son really suffered -- I heard it. But my friend was suffering too, and she was the one living in that house with her boy and her husband, and her history. She did what she needed to do. And I love her dearly and she is still my friend, although I confess that at the time I did not know if we would stay friends.

So I agree with what someone above wrote when she said that we cannot judge. I do feel CIO is waaaaay too mainstream -- scary in fact. But there are situations where people do it and maybe that is what they needed to do.

IMHO CIO is the antithesis of attachment parenting because it constitutes an intentional fracture of the child-parent bond. Letting a child CIO teaches him/ her that they are alone at night -- that there is no point in crying because they will not get your attention that way. I am talking about real Ferber here -- returning every few minutes to a fussing or complaining baby is not CIO, I don't think. CIO is leave, return after 5 minutes, then 10, then 15, then 20 etc until baby sleeps. The next night start at 10 min, then 20, then 30 etc... No matter what, you do not go in.

To me, attending to my dd was/ is about respecting her as a whole person, and equal member of our household. Sure, my night time attention to her has changed as she had gotten older. Some nights now I read to her, cuddle her and then leave. Often she asks meto stay, but sometimes I gently explain why I can't stay tonight, but that I will come up in 10 minutes and check her. Most nights I lie with her until she falls asleep and then I leave.

The car seat problem is interesting, but I have to say that we did not go around with our dd much when she was small because sje did not like the car seat. Why should I force her to sit there when she does not like it? But then we live downtown in walking distance of everything we need and I gather from reading these posts that many people do not live in that setting and di not have the option of just walking instead of driving on your errands.


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## Robinmama (Dec 17, 2001)

My dd is 3 and we never let her CIO. But a good friend who had her baby 10 days before I did ferberized her son when he was 6 months old. I found it heartbreaking, and so did she. She would call me for support while he was screaming and it was really hard to be loving toward her at those times.... but I was, and I'll tell you why.

My friend was raised in a strict household. She is a very orderly person. She was really struggling with motherhood. Her marriage was suffering; she was depressed. Occasionally she would feel rage at her son -- I mean real true rage. My friend is highly intelligent, educated, and she made a decision about what she needed to do to survive parenting her son. I do not agree with her choice -- I *strongly* disagree, in fact. Her son really suffered -- I heard it. But my friend was suffering too, and she was the one living in that house with her boy and her husband, and her history. She did what she needed to do. And I love her dearly and she is still my friend, although I confess that at the time I did not know if we would stay friends.

So I agree with what someone above wrote when she said that we cannot judge. I do feel CIO is waaaaay too mainstream -- scary in fact. But there are situations where people do it and maybe that is what they needed to do.

IMHO CIO is the antithesis of attachment parenting because it constitutes an intentional fracture of the child-parent bond. Letting a child CIO teaches him/ her that they are alone at night -- that there is no point in crying because they will not get your attention that way. I am talking about real Ferber here -- returning every few minutes to a fussing or complaining baby is not CIO, I don't think. CIO is leave, return after 5 minutes, then 10, then 15, then 20 etc until baby sleeps. The next night start at 10 min, then 20, then 30 etc... No matter what, you do not go in.

To me, attending to my dd was/ is about respecting her as a whole person, and equal member of our household. Sure, my night time attention to her has changed as she had gotten older. Some nights now I read to her, cuddle her and then leave. Often she asks me to stay, but sometimes I gently explain why I can't stay tonight, but that I will come up in 10 minutes and check her. Most nights I lie with her until she falls asleep and then I leave.

The car seat problem is interesting, but I have to say that we did not go around with our dd much when she was small because she did not like the car seat. Why should I force her to sit there when she does not like it? But then we live downtown in walking distance of everything we need and I gather from reading these posts that many people do not live in that setting and did not have the option of just walking instead of driving on your errands.


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## 3_opihi (Jan 10, 2003)

"Let's use an abstract example: a single mother of two who is forced to work ten hour days to put food on the table. An infant/almost toddler, who wakes her every half hour all night long... you can't even function enough to take care of your children, let alone work efficiently enough to keep your job. Honestly, what would you do? Go on welfare? Start a gentle sleep training program? Risk a week of "some" CIO for the longterm health of you and your family?
It's so easy to judge other people's decisions if you've never been where they're at."

I've been trying so hard to keep my mouth shut...

I have been in this situation and yes I did go on welfare and no I did not let my children cry it out --ever. In fact feeling my sleeping toddler snuggling next to me nursing happily, and then my infant later on were some of the only things keeping me going in my completely hectic, upsidedown life. not all of us are like how you describe. I see what you are describing as an excuse to not take care of your children. don't know if you've been in this situation, but I have and I know that my children needed me more than ever and me letting them cry alone in a crib when I had already been gone all day would be feel like even more abandonement and possibly even more detrimental. Even if someone was having major problems and felt like they couldn't take care of their kids, I would encourage them to get help (counseling, family, ect.) NOT let their babies cry alone a crib. sorry, I'm not trying to be rude, just trying to stick up for us working mamas.


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

mum2sarah, no I don't think you are off topic at all! I think the whole point that I've been trying to make in these threads is that it is important to make decisions that are best for our own particular family and not necessarily trying to follow a particular parenting philosophy to a T. I agree that purposeful detachment is, of course, the opposite of attachment, emotional abandonment the antithesis of attachment parenting. However, I also agree with the poster above that there is a difference between what is truly letting a baby CIO a la Ferber and comforting a complaining baby, leaving, coming back as needed, and so on. My particular frustration is with the confusion about whether it is okay ever to let babies cry, i.e. in the carseat, while you are using the bathroom, etc. and whether that will somehow be damaging to the long term attachment of the child. I feel like sometimes new parents are not listening to their intuition, instincts, babies' cues, sense of what is right for their family and so on. And this is because they feel that they must not *ever* allow their baby to fuss, cry, complain at all for any reason and should try to at least be with them and comfort them *no matter what* and that there are no situations in which that *might* be the *right* thing to do. Or otherwise they would not be attachment parenting and would somehow be a failure or damage their child. I said earlier that I don't think that what is healthy for a wee babe is always going to be the right thing to do with an older babe or toddler. At some point I think a momma will often sense that her baby can wait a little longer and venture off without her, stay with another caregiver and so on. I think that if she has been practicing attachment parenting and knows her baby she will be able to feel her way thru these transitions if she trusts the process and knows what is right for her particular baby and her particular family and her particular situation. So anyway, that's my two cents, or four, or . . .

P.S. Thanks, samsara!







<ssshhhh, don't tell anyone, sometimes I am a little selfish. . .:ignore >


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## mahdokht (Dec 2, 2002)

*


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## sleepies (Nov 30, 2001)

though, i will put him in his playpen for "time out" and let him cry for about one or two minutes...............IF he is out of control and nothing else works.

he is 22 months and has real fits sometimes....and nothing else seems to stop him. (not going to spank ever).

so...................that isn't really CIO ............cause i do not wait for him to stop crying..................

I put him in when he is tantrum........leave the room and stand in doorway for 1- 2 minutes and go and get him out.

i say "No cry" and take him out and he is totally fine after that.

but. id NEVER let him cry ............

time out isn't CIO? is it? i hope not.

you think im ok? be honest


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## mum2sarah (Apr 23, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Robinmama_
*
The car seat problem is interesting, but I have to say that we did not go around with our dd much when she was small because she did not like the car seat. Why should I force her to sit there when she does not like it? But then we live downtown in walking distance of everything we need and I gather from reading these posts that many people do not live in that setting and did not have the option of just walking instead of driving on your errands.







*
Wow, no offense, but you must have lived in such a downtown setting all your life, since it seems you take it for granted. If only we all were so lucky. No, seriously there are *many* of us who simply do not have a choice. I live only 20 miles or so from downtown Pittsburgh, in a suburban style neighborhood, but still the nearest grocery store is 5 miles away. We have no department stores in our town. There is a drug store within "walking distance" (about a mile) but if you've ever visited western Pennsylvania, you'd know that it is extremely hilly, and I could not see myself walking up and down two mountainous hills on a regular basis to get there. Yes, driving and strapping the baby in a car seat is unfortunately a necessary evil around here. It can be very stressful to hear her cry in the car, but I try to make sure ahead of time that she is not tired or hungry and make trips as infrequently and as quickly as possible. I also try to sing to her and talk to her and give her soft toys to keep her occupied. I wish I could just walk wherever I needed to go. So be glad you live in a place where you can!


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

sleepies, I for one think you are ok! I think you know your baby better than anybody and know his personality and what he needs in a given situation and/or you feel it out until you do.

My first does not seem to be able to recover well from small upsets. Commiserating with her, comforting, sympathizing, etc. only made her escalate. It was like her feelings were out of control and if you seemed to be encouraging her to have them, she'd just keep having them and increasing them and could not wind down. I once left her at daycare and she got bumped on the playground and they did the usual sympathetic responses. When I got there *2 hours* later she was an absolute wreck! I started letting her cry for a bit, describing what had happened, how I thought she probably felt, then telling her it was time to be all done and move on. I think if anyone saw me doing that and knew only that last bit they'd think I was stifling her, not allowing her to express her feelings, etc. but I had figured out how to help her.

My new little one also needs some time to let off steam. I finally figured out that if I just let her go while holding (or not holding her if I got too upset and had to put her down for a minute) she would quit and go to sleep much sooner than if I kept trying to get her to stop crying, by offering to feed her, sticking the binky in her mouth, jiggling, patting, shshshing, stroking, etc.


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## irishprincess71 (Mar 22, 2003)

I have very much enjoyed this thread and all the posts. I have already voted and posted but something happened last night that made me want to share.

I can completely understand why a single mother would CIO. DS is almost 11 months old and generally wakes up 2x a night. Technically only once a night. He wakes up between 12:00 am and 1:30 am and then again at 6:00 am. Since DH and I don't get up until 9:00 that 6:00 am still feels like night time to us.









However, last night DS got up at 1:00 am, 2:00 am, 4:00 am, 6:30 am, and 8:45 am. In addition he did not wake up fussing like normal but with blood-curdling cries which is not normal for him. I got up with him each time and either cuddled, nursed or bottle-fed him back to sleep. Finally though at 6:30 I had started to lose all sense of patience. I told DH he had to take care of DS for the next few hours because I had never felt more like spanking my child than I did right then.









I know that I never would have actually gone through with it but had it not been for my DH who is as devoted to parenting our children as I am I might have put DS in his own room (he sleeps on our floor) and left him there for a couple of minutes in order to get control. I can handle his waking up at night because I know that DH is there to catch me and DS when I need a break. For all you single mothers out there who do not have someone else besides you - my hat is off to you


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## MomOfHeathens (Apr 24, 2003)

With my first one I was 16 and was told that I was SUPPOSE to let them CIO. It broke my heart and to be honest I had to sneak around and pick up my son when others weren't looking because I just couldn't handle it. If I knew then what I know now though certain people would have gotten my finger and my back as I was carrying my son away.

My daughter I did things my way and was very happy with it. I didn't listen to anyone who told me that she would end up clingy or spoiled and she turned out just fine.

My little one now I have finally realized that alot of what I did back then and do now is what's considered AP Parenting which is pretty cool (knowing that I've been doing this "new" thing for so long). He has never had to CIO and never will if I have my way but it is a daily fight because his father is against AP and fights me on everything!! If it comes down to it though my son still won't CIO and I'll just be a single momma again.


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## chrissy (Jun 5, 2002)

No, never!


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## indiegirl (Apr 15, 2002)

I'm on page three of the replies--this is an interesting thread. I hope the last two pages are not ugly and mean!

Anywho, I want to thank those of you (specifically Alexa and HM) for your posts. Alexa, your attitude is pretty nearly exactly what I think.

With my dd, Violet (age 3 in about a week), I was your standard new AP parent--I followed what I thought was AP and did not let my daughter so much as whimper. I am so glad for our strong bond. I have done a good job with her. As I like to do with all things important in my life, I reflected on how her early years were for me--how I parented, how she responded, how both of our needs were either met or not met....

And the single biggest issue I had with how I parented and Violet's responses is that her sleep patterns were detremental to my sanity for the first two years. Her nightwaking/night terrors were so terrible that I became depressed, angry and felt violent toward her (didnt' act on it!). I think I even had a bit of PTSD when it came to her nightwaking. I would hear her wake and sometimes cry myself--OMG, she's awake. Here we go for another four hours of inconsolable screaming. Here we go for another bad day tomorrow because she didn't sleep well. Please oh please oh please go back to sleep.

Now, one of us would get up with her always. And nothing, I mean nothing helped at times (in all fairness, sometimes things did help...). There was a period when she was 15-20 months where she was up from 11-3 am SCREAMING or whining or yelling. Nothing we did helped. Sometimes dh would drive for HOURS only to have her wake up an hour later.

So, yeah...that didn't work for us. I certainly didn't feel very AP. I felt very tired and angry. So did Violet. So did Dh.

She did grow out of it but honestly, she has only been sleeping consistantly through the night since her sister was born (Zoe is five months). This is a good thing cause I dont' know what I would do if I had to deal with two kids at night. I'm one of those people who needs sleep or I am an absolute nightmare.

Soooooo....upon reflection, I decided that something different needed to be done with baby #2. We do a great mixture of co-sleeping/crib-in-the-room sleeping. I vary the way she goes to sleep: nursing, dh rocking her, or simply awake. About one in ten times, she will whimper for no more than three minutes. She starts in her crib in our room and when she wakes, I move her to our bed.

And I'm so okay with that. She is already a better sleeper than her sister. She sleeps from 9/10 pm to 6/8 am. Who knows--maybe that is a natural thing--something in her nature--but I'll take it. I put her down awake and she has really learned how to sleep on her own.

I feel more able to respond to both of my girls by doing it this way. And that is what AP is to me--using the tools of AP to help you read your kids cues. You use what works and reasses when things don't.

I highly doubt Dr. Bill would tell me that I am a bad mama.


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## Naturalmomma (Apr 29, 2003)

Never here. I have co-slept with Noah from day one and the CIO was never an issue. He was quite colicky as an infant so he would often have bouts of crying, but always in my arms. During the night I was always able to meet his needs by rolling over and nursing him. When he was very young, my husband and I would often have to take turns walking with him at night.
When he weaned during my pregnancy, I found other ways to soothe him on the rare occasion that he would awake. For him, all it takes is a hug and getting his back patted till he rolls back over and falls asleep.
I am hoping to do things the same with the new baby.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

We have never done CIO, leaving one or both in a room to cry alone.

That being said, occasionally, they do "FIO" (fuss it out), meaning they are clearly exhausted from a long day, but don't want to go to bed, but NEED to go to bed, and so when I put them in bed, they fuss (not cry, not wail), kind of whining and grumping a bit, for a minute or so, then they drift off to sleep and wake up happy as clams.

Dd and ds were terrible sleepers early on, and it took months to teach them how to fall asleep, take good naps, etc. But it was teaching, not neglecting. We did "No Cry Sleep Solution" techniques which worked very well.

For the most part, dd and ds want to go to sleep when they're tired and signal that to me. I just plop them into bed and they happily go to sleep. So what I'm talking about is the extraordinary occasion when they're tired but won't go to bed, and nursie, rocking, etc don't help. Then they just get tucked in, say nitey nite, and they fuss for a moment and then go to bed.


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## zealsmom (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by alexa07_
*What all of the reserach that I read showed was that people who did not learn to fall asleep on their own as children had a higher risk of problems with insomnia as adults. Now, this is only a risk. It is not an absolute cause and effect.

The reserach also showed that the earlier one learned to fall asleep on one's own, the better the chance of developing better sleep habits later on. And again this just increased the odds, didn't gurantee anything.
*
But that doesn't mean one has to let their child cry themselves to sleep in a dark room, alone, at night (which can be especially scary).

Our son can certainly put himself to sleep. He does it almost every day in a car seat or in the bike trailer without us knowing or trying to get him to sleep. BUT, we would never leave him alone in the dark to comfort himself and feel as though the people whom he trusts most in the world wre not coming to his aid when he was scared or needed comforting.

Anyway, I say that all to say, that I would really love to read the research you are referring to. Can you post a link?

I, nor my siblings, ever allowed to CIO. We all slept in a family bed until we were ready to sleep alone and we all sleep very well, none have any sleep disorders to speak of, and all can put ourselves to sleep at the drop of a hat.


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## member234098 (Aug 3, 2002)

No, never.

I honestly could not stand the noise!

I would even put my dear child in a backpack when I vacuumed, mowed the lawn, cleaned the car, or did the dishes.

HOnestly, I could not stand the noise.

We homebirthed, co-slept, bf'd, I was a SAHM for ten years, so yes it was a natural extension of my AP.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Quote:

I have been in this situation and yes I did go on welfare and no I did not let my children cry it out --ever. In fact feeling my sleeping toddler snuggling next to me nursing happily, and then my infant later on were some of the only things keeping me going in my completely hectic, upsidedown life. not all of us are like how you describe
If you read my post, it says "let's use an example". I didn't say "all single working mothers are extremely worn out and need to let their babies CIO." I'm sooo happy for you that everything worked out that well! But my children had me up all night - every half hour, like clock work - for months and months on end. Some people have the stamina, others don't... I was simply making the point that you can never really judge what other moms are going through.


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## sleepies (Nov 30, 2001)

unless you count...............

since he was about 18 months, if he throws a fit and i can not calm him down ........after trying.....

i put him in his playpen for about 1 minute, and then take him out. he stops crying after i get him out.

i haven't found anything else to work when he gets out of control... (ie temper tantrum)


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

Question..............

does CIO have to be a bedtime issue?

I don;t have babies yet -- can't wait.

BUT

I do not suppor tCIO over bedtime. I had bad bedtime issues and do not want kids to have them. None of my newphews are forced to CIO though the 4 year old limits and a set bedtime.

BUT

if you are talking about a "fit" or anger at a NO answer.........is that different.

Aimee


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## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

MY son was in the hospital for a week/ Came home and then few weeks later it started. Getting up at 2 and crying and nothing would make it better, in fact he would cry ahrder if we took him out and tried various things (To the point of Tylenol, Benadryl, books, food, drink, bath, even Sesamy st one despareta night). So, I just desided he neede to cry about something. The cryin lastedfor 15 monites for a week and then stopped. One of my firend thoguht that he was just crying because he felt sad about hospital


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## PurplePixiePooh (Aug 5, 2003)

I am VERY passionate about this issue and very opinionated on it as well. We have never and never would let a baby cry unconsoled. Forcing a child to cry to "learn to sleep on its own" is a cruel thing to do. Babies are so needful of love and attention and little for such a short period of time, that doing such a thing is just plain old selfish in my opinon. When you have children you must put yourself and your neds aside for their good. Does a child sometimes cry till the parent can finish using the bathroom or having to throw up? Yes, it is just an unfortuante part of life, but allowing a child to cry to "train" them is an awful practice.

Just like any other human being a child has emotional, physical and spirtual needs. We must be there to help meet those needs untill that child is capapble of handeling that on their own, which is not at only a few months or even years of age. Perhaps the baby is overtired and needs more help to calm down and relax to sleep, maybe their need for feeling secure is higher than expected and they need to be held, rocked or cuddled to sleep. Maybe they just have the need to be near another person and enveloped in love for a while longer.

The simple fact is that life in this world can be, and often is harsh, rough and difficult. Sadly so many people believe that we must introduce this fact to children far too young to comprehend it, much less deal with it. Let's let our children be children and give them the mose comforting, safe and secure environments possible and not worry about making our lives more convenient, or easier.
think of thos little arms reaching up to embrace empty air, or that little heart breaking because momy and daddy will not respond to them. What does that teach the baby? Nothing good. It jsut breaks my heart that so many children are treated in this manner, and that so many books, peds and so-called "experts" not only suggest it, but push it like its the only way to go.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

mamaof2:









Your post said all I wanted to say!

I am a single mama, and my son will NEVER be left alone to cry.
He is almost 27 months old, and has only recently started to sleep "through the night." (He still wakes a few times every night, but he doesn`t need my help to go back to sleep anymore...)


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## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

Untill my son's episode, I considered CIo a really horribale things. However, i do think that evything need to be approached on case by case basis. He was 2... and when I say we tried eveything I mean it. what was wered is that holding him and rocking him, or simply touching him, or tlaking made it all worse. It would completely send him wialing. My DH thought he was ill again with something. I still think to this day that how he expressed his rage at being ill, and having to stay at the hospital and undergoing all the procedure. I was with him 24/7 there, and he was a verys toic, amzaingly well behaved child. I think he held everything in him and his crying was the rage, the expression of what happened to him. I know my son well and I could see tht holding him was driving him nuts. Sometime I want to be elft alone and just cry and rant and grief. and sometime a child wants the same
after a weeek, it all came back to normal


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## PurplePixiePooh (Aug 5, 2003)

I think that there is a difference between CIO and crying expressively. I don't think that if a child wants to be left alone, not hugged or touched and just cry then as long as they can get you as soon as they need you then that is what is important. My dd is almost 3 and at times she will have emotional episodes where she will just cry. Sometimes its anger, frustration or just being overtired. I try to hold or cuddle her, if she does not want it then I gently remove myself from her personal space as far as she needs then wait for her to want me. Once she wants mommy I am there for her, and she knows it. I am sure your ds knew you were there for him too, so at that point just knowing that WAS comfort enough.

When an infant is left to cry for convenience, or sleep or whatever it is not a good thing. I have heard of a dad so frustrated by the colicky baby crying that he shook it and now the child is severly handicapped. In cases like this it would have been netter had the man put the baby in a crib, playpen whatever and walked away to compose himself.

However most CIO's are children with very real needs, even if it just the need for a close physical presence for a bit, and they are neglected for "training" purposes. Children are very human and their needs and even wants are just as real and valid as ours and should be treated thusly.

I maybe a bit militant, but if my ds begins to cry while we are driving somewhere, I will make up a bottle and jump in the back and feed him. If I am driving I will pull into a parking lot or strip mall or whatever and change his diaper and feed him, then continue on with the trip.

I have seen many "trained" children in my day and I shudder to think that the parents did this on purpose. They remid me of "stepford" children, void of real personality, little robots incapable of thinking or doing something without momy or daddy's say-so.

IMNSHO ALL Ezzo, Pearl and other "beat em' into submission, train em like dogs" book should be illegal.


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## Alenushka (Jul 27, 2002)

pin pointed imporata difference. In fact,how can one not stop the car and feed the child or cahnge the diaper? as a training for what excately?


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## JulietsMama (Aug 14, 2003)

I dont let her cry on purpose. She cries in the carseat and sometimes when shes fighting sleep even though I am there with her. The thought of mothers letting their babies cry more than a few minutes unconsoled until they become sick and sad just makes me literally sick to my stomach.


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