# My ds rips our screens! 4 yr old xpost



## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

I'll try this in here, because I really dont know how to handle it!

My dh is so mad at ds-he has torn every single screen in and outside our home in the last year. Tonight, when dh noticed ds tearing a huge hole in our brand new pavillion thing he almost lost it!

I am not sure where I am on this because I have no idea if "he should know better." Dh thinks he does know better.

I dont think he is doing it for attention, I have never noticed him "looking up to see if anyones watching" or anything like that. He doesnt laugh when we get mad or anything. He HAS been told many many many times what is expected of him in this area.

???

What do you think?

What would you do?


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I'm confiused about what your ds is doing that is tearing the screen. Can you say more about how it happens?


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

he walks up to it and rips it. It doesnt seem that he is playing a game or anything. Just ripping it. for fun. It seems that he enjoys the activity.

My ds does things like this often, he has a very unique personality.









Last week he took my vacuum cleaner apart and ripped up the filter. I dont know why!

He seems bored, but I am unable to entertain him as he does not enjoy playing games or toys. (Or any randomt hings I give him....he finds his own "toys" around the house.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I am copying this post from another thread you began.

Quote:

Wait a sec. Could it be that they are not playing with their toys because they want YOU to interact with them.

You are 7 mos pregnant, right? Have you felt yourself pushing them away a little? Wanting them to do their own thing so you can do yours (be it get some rest, do something you want to do, etc).
Mama, I've noticed your posts in parenting and rage and your other 50+ posts every day this week. I believe the above poster may have the clue to his need for engagement.

Pat


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
I am copying this post from another thread you began. Mama, I've noticed your posts in parenting and rage and your other 50+ posts every day this week. I believe the above poster may have the clue to his need for engagement.

Pat

How much can a person possibly engage though? This was on a "sunday" (our second weekend day falls on a weekday) and dh and I had played with the kids for 2 days straight together.







:

Dh was cooking at the grill and I was in the kitchen preparing the table. (Ds was invited to help me on several occasions)

If I keep blaming myself for everything my kids do wrong I am going to go insane.

So if you aren't doing a perfect job as a playful parent its just ok for your kids to destroy your stuff? I don't get this at all. I am looking for answers to the discipline issue here, not "You are going to get this if you fail as a parent" kwim? How does this benefit the kids? Discipline is for them, to teach them how to function in life. If you just say "I should have done a better job, its ok if you destroy stuff!" what is that teaching them?

I think my kids would not benefit from that kind of parenting, because no one can be 100% all the time, and its *still not ok* to tear up peoples screens! He does it at my MIL's house AND my parents house as well.

Is GD only applicable when the parent is mentally and physically capable of being perfect?


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

my DS does this too! My dad had all the sreeens rescreened recently (well in MArch) and they are all ruined already! acck! last week he even jumped out the kitchen window! (ground level into our backyard, but still..)









now I keep all the windows shut. I don't know what else to do?

wuwei- that is so incredibly rude and uncalled for. wow.







:


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rainbowmoon* 
my DS does this too! My dad had all the sreeens rescreened recently (well in MArch) and they are all ruined already! acck! last week he even jumped out the kitchen window! (ground level into our backyard, but still..)









now I keep all the windows shut. I don't know what else to do?

wuwei- that is so incredibly rude and uncalled for. wow.







:

Both of our parents have lanai's (screened in porches) and they are destroyed as well. We cant keep this child from screens.

I have thought "sensory issue?" but I am trying very hard to stop labeling my kids with "problems" know what I mean?


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

yeah my DS (3.5yo) definitely has some sensory issues.







I don't have any advice other than to keep reiterating to your DS that the screens are NOT for ripping.

I wonder if there are window guards for children like for animals? (We used to have one on our sliding glass door screen)


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## jlutgendorf (Aug 15, 2006)

can you price out a roll of screen material at home depot and let him go to town on bits of that?

I would guess he likes either the feel or the sound of screen tearing (I do too!). You can also look for things that feel neat or sound neat to do. I have a small metal slinky at my desk that I routinely mash and squish because it feels good. I also really liked playing in bird seed and rice as a kid, just sticking my hands in and pouring it from cup to cup.

I think if you gave him his own screens to rip up, you could probably stop him from tearing up actual screens.

As for if he should know better, I don't know, perhaps those more experienced in child development could talk about impulse control in 4 year olds?

~Julia


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## L&IsMama (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
I am copying this post from another thread you began. Mama, I've noticed your posts in parenting and rage and your other 50+ posts every day this week. I believe the above poster may have the clue to his need for engagement.

Pat

Yikes!







: Pat, are you honestly saying it's this mama's fault her ds is destroying the screens? What is the OP to do when she _has_ been engaging in play with the kids all day and he is _still_ doing this? Not everyone only has one CL poster child. Seriously. And you know what? That's ok. It certainly doesn't mean failure on the parent's part.


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## L&IsMama (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jlutgendorf* 
As for if he should know better, I don't know, perhaps those more experienced in child development could talk about impulse control in 4 year olds?

~Julia

I don't expect my 4.5 year old to always make the "right" choices regarding his impulses. He is only 4.5, afterall. I do, however, expect him to not willfully destroy property, and if he does, I like to find ways to help him learn to control those impulses so that it doesn't keep happening, yk? As he matures in age, he is going to be in situations where there isn't a fun alternative to actions and choices he makes. I want him to be equipped with the knowledge to know how to control impulses that could result in more serious consequences in his life. And I do think this can be done in a GD manner, but not CL. I'm not sure if the OP in looking for only CL opinions, so...just sayin'.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

I love CL philosphy but I am just not a mama who can actually apply it completley to my own life. Its not a reality to me. But some great great resources for ANY human being to take into account. KWIM


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## nichole (Feb 9, 2004)

Maybe there is some truth to what Pat is saying, BUT ouch! I hope no one is going around counting my posts. I'm sure I would be in a hormonal rage and trying to catch a break if 7 months pregnant.

Just an idea, can you watch a video together, get a babysitter, put him part time preschool, etc? B/c it sounds like he needs a lot of attention right now and you need a break. I wish I had put jason in preschool after the baby was born. I tried to do it all and was a bit




























:







:

Not to scare you but this kinda thing might get worse when the baby gets here. I've decided that ds needs lots more supervision til he gets out of this phase of touching things that are off limits. So for now, maybe he can't go outside until he can stop destroying the screens. Play with him as much as you can and when you have to leave the room take him with you. Praise him endlessly (if you are not against praise) for being gentle. If you do this a couple of days, I bet it will get better. It has really helped around here with a few things. Then you can go back to giving him a little more freedom, checking on him lots until he shows you he can be trusted around valuable things. In your case it is the screen. In my case it is his baby brother and valuable nick nacks ( i live with my inlaws..i asked them to move them higher and he climbed to get to them!).

You probably think I'm a nut. You will probably get nothing done for a couple of days with this method, BUT, it will just be for a couple of days if he is anything like my ds. And you are probably putting a lot of energy into reprimanding him anyways.


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## Jessviola (Jun 17, 2003)

I didn't read Pat's post as blaming the OP for her child destroying stuff. It sounded like she was suggesting that spending more time with the child would help the situation. I don't think anyone was trying to be harsh or judgemental, I think it was in the spirit of trying to help you. (although admittedly I haven't read the other thread, this is just my take on the single post) It's really tough to make a suggestion like that because it's easily taken as an attack.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jessviola* 
It's really tough to make a suggestion like that because it's easily taken as an attack.

It's not so much that its an attack as *its not at all helpful.*

I have been parenting like that for 4 years of my ds's life, blaming myself for all his misbehaviors and displaced attitudes. I am here to tell you that when I take that route, it doesn't work-for my child! It just teaches him that he should be able to control someone elses behaviors by being peaceful and perfect.

Its not reality, and its not GD. It may be CL but as one poster said, I am not looking for CL suggestions because it is not part of my reality-its too idealistic for me personally. (Not that I think there is anything wrong with it! Its a wonderful philosophy~!)

I am cool with people giving their suggestions though, Thats what a forum is all about, right?


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## Jessviola (Jun 17, 2003)

It's ok for you to find a suggestion completely unhelpful, but you asked what people thought and what they would do and one of the suggestions was to spend more time with him. I'm not sure what that has to do with blaming yourself for his "misbehaviors and displaced attitudes"

I also didn't pick up on where anybody implied "You are going to get this if you fail as a parent" or "I should have done a better job, its ok if you destroy stuff!" I read it as them suggesting it might not happen in the future if you were able to spend more time engaging him now. Like if his need for time with you is filled (even if it seems insanely high) he will be less likely to do that kind of stuff.

It sounds like that's not something you think will work or you feel like a failure when you spend so much time with him, and that's your reality. I just didn't get why people were jumping on Pat's suggestion as if she'd attacked you.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jessviola* 
It's ok for you to find a suggestion completely unhelpful, but you asked what people thought and what they would do and one of the suggestions was to spend more time with him. I'm not sure what that has to do with blaming yourself for his "misbehaviors and displaced attitudes"

I also didn't pick up on where anybody implied "You are going to get this if you fail as a parent" or "I should have done a better job, its ok if you destroy stuff!" I read it as them suggesting it might not happen in the future if you were able to spend more time engaging him now. Like if his need for time with you is filled (even if it seems insanely high) he will be less likely to do that kind of stuff.

It sounds like that's not something you think will work or you feel like a failure when you spend so much time with him, and that's your reality. I just didn't get why people were jumping on Pat's suggestion as if she'd attacked you.









I agree, jess.

Transformed, have you tried giving him a sheet of screen material that would be OKAY for him to destroy? Perhaps some cheap tulle? He might just like the way it feels and sounds and not understand what the big deal is, yet. He obviously knows THAT he can't but a lot of kids also need to understand WHY they can't before they will stop a given behavior problem (and because *I* said so just doesn't cut it, ya know?). Have you explained why you need the screens intact? have you let him face the consequences of not having screens (I.e. he gets eaten alive by mosquitoes and other buggies)? Or made him participate in the reparation of the screens, rather than watching his favorite TV show, or whatever is a normal privilege of his?

The other solution might be to not trust him alone in a room full of screens...close the windows when he's in there.

I can't imagine how frustrating it must be, to be pregnant and chasing after a toddler, but in the interest of your screens' safety, KWIM?


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:

I read it as them suggesting it might not happen in the future if you were able to spend more time engaging him now. Like if his need for time with you is filled (even if it seems insanely high) he will be less likely to do that kind of stuff.
I am no longer trying to live up to the *supermom myth.* Meeting childrens needs _all the time_, especially when you have more than one child, is impossible. And when I realized that, I decided I needed more discipline tools. Which is why I am in GD. to get discipline ideas. Teaching ideas. How to handle the issue at hand ideas.

I also do not want to teach my child that. One shouldn't need total attention to act decently. Its certainly not true in adult life. When I dont get the attention I need, I dont get to blame my behavior on my "needs." I do not feel it is a lesson I want in my home.

But I know, I know thats alot of peoples answer to most issues! I know!

This is where the old fashioned notion of being "spoiled" comes in. I am not a person to use that word, and I dont know if I ever have used that word before!

I belive if I am a constant provider of _everything_ my kids need, it will spoil their chances of learning how to _operate in real life._ With accountability. Mommy isnt always going to be there! I have to take the time to actually teach my children accountability. I do not want to cripple them by always providing for them-whatever their little hearts desire. _Especially_ when they act out!!!! So they wont trash all my stuff!!!


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

It sucks to feel judged.

Sorry.

Listen I think part of GD is being there loads, and ultimately it IS striving to be incredibly patient.

Sometimes, when kids break the rules and trash your stuff all the time the lesson you can take away from it is NOT that you are failure who doesn't meet their needs but that THEY cannot be trusted alone yet, and that's life.

I have some groups of students who can be left for 30 minutes to work alone, I have other groups that have to watched like hawks every second until the bell rings. Eyes in the back of my head.

Maybe you could get a surveillance camera UNTIL HE PROVES that he can be left alone.

I'm no GD expert, far from it, but a big part of it is natural consequences for behavior. One of the consequences for behaving badly and destroying mom's stuff could very well be that they don't get to be alone with mom's stuff anymore. Partially a punishment for you too, I know, but I think that's a pitfall of GD a lot of the time.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hakeber* 
It sucks to feel judged.

Sorry.

Listen I think part of GD is being there loads, and ultimately it IS striving to be incredibly patient.

Sometimes, when kids break the rules and trash your stuff all the time the lesson you can take away from it is NOT that you are failure who doesn't meet their needs but that THEY cannot be trusted alone yet, and that's life.

I have some groups of students who can be left for 30 minutes to work alone, I have other groups that have to watched like hawks every second until the bell rings. Eyes in the back of my head.

Maybe you could get a surveillance camera UNTIL HE PROVES that he can be left alone.

I'm no GD expert, far from it, but a big part of it is natural consequences for behavior. One of the consequences for behaving badly and destroying mom's stuff could very well be that they don't get to be alone with mom's stuff anymore. Partially a punishment for you too, I know, but I think that's a pitfall of GD a lot of the time.

He wasn't alone!


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Yikes...sorry.

I misread it, no need to shout.

Does that mean you stood by and _watched_ him rip the screen? Or was he with someone else? I'm totally confused, trans.

Anyway, how about all my OTHER suggestions, would any of those work?

Or were you just looking for commiseration, actually?


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

they were good suggestions! Did I yell?







sorry!!!

My dh was grilling and while he was flipping the burgers, ds was ripping the screen. Otherwise, they were playing together outside.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

Transformed, have you tried giving him a sheet of screen material that would be OKAY for him to destroy? Perhaps some cheap tulle? He might just like the way it feels and sounds and not understand what the big deal is, yet. He obviously knows THAT he can't but a lot of kids also need to understand WHY they can't before they will stop a given behavior problem (and because *I* said so just doesn't cut it, ya know?). Have you explained why you need the screens intact? have you let him face the consequences of not having screens (I.e. he gets eaten alive by mosquitoes and other buggies)? Or made him participate in the reparation of the screens, rather than watching his favorite TV show, or whatever is a normal privilege of his?
I like all of these suggestions. I think if it were my kid, I'd first explain, get him to agree to stop, then keep an eagle eye, stop him the second he goes for the screen and offer the alternate material. If that still does not work, I think I would want him to experience a related consequence for this in some way. Remove him from the area with screens, for instance, until he can be respectful around them. Yes, extra work for you, but I'm sure the ripped screens are an annoyance!

My DD was inappropriately mouthing small toys at 3 (probably also a sensory need). We brought out some old chewy toys and placed them in strategic locations. The second something unsafe went to her mouth, we said, "If you need to have something in your mouth, use this." If she continued to chew on the dangerous item, it was put away for a bit. We had success with this.


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## JennaW (Oct 11, 2007)

Do you guys take trips to the zoo or other places that cost money to get in to? Could you stop taking those trips for a bit and explain to DS that the reason we cannot go to the zoo today is because we needed money to pay for the new screens. I also agree with closing the windows and cutting off access. Also, have you talked to DS about why he likes to rip the screens in a neutral way? Maybe he can give you some insight into what the problem is and that will lead to a solution. I also agree with you that children need to learn to live in their family as it actually exists (of course I am talking about healthy families, no families that abuse their children in any way). The reality of that is that Mom can't be by your side all of the time when you are not a baby any more. IMPO, 4 years old is old enough to understand that we respect property. Part of that is not intentionally damaging things. BTW- I am not a Momma but I have been a nanny for many years, with all different ages of children and that is where I am drawing my opinions from.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Both of his outdoor play areas contain screens (The porch, and the backyard) so its s bummer but I guess I have to keep him indoors or at the park.

We have one of those big screened in things from target, and its smack in the middle of the yard. So dh and I can hang out while the kids play outside, in a bug free area.

Thank you guys...for the suggestions, I think I am going to also ask ds why. My dh does when it happens but he is angry and so its more like a "WTF?" kind of why.









Normally ds' answer to this type of neutral question is "because I wike to do that"







Simple and to the point. The glory of age 4.


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## nichole (Feb 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JennaW* 
The reality of that is that Mom can't be by your side all of the time when you are not a baby any more. IMPO, 4 years old is old enough to understand that we respect property. Part of that is not intentionally damaging things. BTW- I am not a Momma but I have been a nanny for many years, with all different ages of children and that is where I am drawing my opinions from.

Probably, but they sure seems to have a harder time with it when they are

lonely, tired, hungry, going through a big life change, etc.

these are the times when i use my eagle eye


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

I find ds kind of fiddles with things with his hands sometimes when he's restless or bored. It's like he's daydreaming and doesn't always notice what he's doing. Your ds might know he's not supposed to do it, but knowing and practicing it are two different things, kwim? I know I'm not supposed to yell at ds, but sometimes I do it anyway. It's not always easy to refrain from doing something just because we know we shouldn't do it.

I really wouldn't take Pat's post as an attack or perceive it as harsh. She's pretty gentle with her posts here. Maybe if you get CL type suggestions in the future, you could just read them and move on to what is helpful for you? When you specifically say it wasn't helpful, well, that's not helpful to post either, kwim? So people don't feel defensive, when they were really trying to be helpful. Otherwise the thread might tend to turn into one of those back and forth threads, (and there are enough of those already.)

Do you think he was bored, daydreaming, restless?
Does he even notice he's doing it?
Have you asked him _what you can do to help him_ stop? (This works surprisingly well with my ds and lets him know I am willing to do what I can to make it easier for him to meet _my_ expectations.)

Good luck.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abac* 
Have you asked him _what you can do to help him_ stop? (This works surprisingly well with my ds and lets him know I am willing to do what I can to make it easier for him to meet _my_ expectations.)

Good luck.

This is a great idea. When I remember to work _with_ ds, he does so much better and he feels like we are a team!


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## L&IsMama (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abac* 
I really wouldn't take Pat's post as an attack or perceive it as harsh. She's pretty gentle with her posts here.

nevermind, avoiding a mod warning.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

There is no blame and nothing to defend. I wanted to help focus on what you could *do* to help connect with him and prevent similar situations. In coming to this lifestyle, one of my biggest lessons is remembering to work *with* ds, rather than talk *at* him. That doesn't come naturally to me since including kids in decisions or asking for their input, listening to their needs, addressing their concerns, etc. wasn't a large dynamic in my family of origin. That takes a lot of engagement and attention, and when I am not providing myself with adequate self-care, I am apt to withdrawal into the computer instead.

When we are disconnected from each other, we are less likely to consider the other's needs. Children are impulsive, curious, and sensory driven, especially at age 2,3,4,5....







So, being attuned to those needs proactively helps to provide outlets for ds which are agreeable and constructive. But, kids left to their own devices are self-entertaining. It just is their nature to explore and discovery. Being present with ds is a full time job and when the computer takes my attention, I am not present with him.

Pat


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Hey, transformed, we moved this summer, and I discovered the wonder of BUBBLE WRAP! Get the kind with really big bubbles, and they can jump on it, squish it, etc. Maybe you could put the roll near the screens?


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
Hey, transformed, we moved this summer, and I discovered the wonder of BUBBLE WRAP! Get the kind with really big bubbles, and they can jump on it, squish it, etc. Maybe you could put the roll near the screens?

Now THAT is a good idea.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

There's the CL aspect, which I LOVE, and then there's the CC (continuum concept) aspect, which I _live_. I find in many ways they can be lived together, but I've also found that in many ways they can't. CC is not child focused, in fact, it says child centered living is the problem with modern western family life. The parent easily loses her identity (and mind







) and is playing "child games" when it isn't her job to do. Other children fill this role. Our instincts rile against this role for a reason. Our inherent job is to laugh and chop and hang with other women while children of different ages play and learn together _around_ us. We yearn for this, we miss it, and we know the way we live now just feels so *wrong*, esp for the instinctive, intuitive among us.

Our culture has gone out of its way to move from this *primitive* way of living, only to come smack bang up against the consequences of the loss of it. _We're so often lost in our parenting._

It's hard to understand or explain unless the book has been read, or a culture has been personally experienced that lives within the continuum. But I would go crazy trying to entertain a freakin' toddler or five year old all day, GET REAL. But I am lucky, I have a "tribal" type living arrangement, my whole family lives together. It would be impossible to do this in a family with one child and no neighbours that all play together (_all_ day, _everyday_, not some random, fairly useless playdate once a week). Siblings are not the same, although they can kinda emulate the situation, but only so far.

And that is why I empathise with Trans and mamas like her who are going stir crazy trying to give adult attention to a child who really wants _child_ attention. It's affection and acceptance they want from us, but they'll take our attention cos it's all they've got. Our culture does NOT understand this concept, and puts a lot of pressure on parents to give this attention. And let's be honest, it _does_ become our job as we do not have the social structure for it to be otherwise - so letting our kids starve of attention and entertainment is not an option either.

There are some great suggestions here, and unfortunately, WW's are also spot on as your family situation sounds like it's all up to you to entertain. I empathise with that, I would go NUTS if I had to play kid games with my DD all day. Although we spend quality and quantity time together, she is child centered and I am not. We are both more fulfilled. So I guess my suggestion is: go communal.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm* 
There's the CL aspect, which I LOVE, and then there's the CC (continuum concept) aspect, which I _live_. I find in many ways they can be lived together, but I've also found that in many ways they can't. CC is not child focused, in fact, it says child centered living is the problem with modern western family life. The parent easily loses her identity (and mind







) and is playing "child games" when it isn't her job to do. Other children fill this role. Our instincts rile against this role for a reason. Our inherent job is to laugh and chop and hang with other women while children of different ages play and learn together _around_ us. We yearn for this, we miss it, and we know the way we live now just feels so *wrong*, esp for the instinctive, intuitive among us.

Our culture has gone out of its way to move from this *primitive* way of living, only to come smack bang up against the consequences of the loss of it. _We're so often lost in our parenting._

It's hard to understand or explain unless the book has been read, or a culture has been personally experienced that lives within the continuum. But I would go crazy trying to entertain a freakin' toddler or five year old all day, GET REAL. But I am lucky, I have a "tribal" type living arrangement, my whole family lives together. It would be impossible to do this in a family with one child and no neighbours that all play together (_all_ day, _everyday_, not some random, fairly useless playdate once a week). Siblings are not the same, although they can kinda emulate the situation, but only so far.

And that is why I empathise with Trans and mamas like her who are going stir crazy trying to give adult attention to a child who really wants _child_ attention. It's affection and acceptance they want from us, but they'll take our attention cos it's all they've got. Our culture does NOT understand this concept, and puts a lot of pressure on parents to give this attention. And let's be honest, it _does_ become our job as we do not have the social structure for it to be otherwise - so letting our kids starve of attention and entertainment is not an option either.

There are some great suggestions here, and unfortunately, WW's are also spot on as your family situation sounds like it's all up to you to entertain. I empathise with that, I would go NUTS if I had to play kid games with my DD all day. Although we spend quality and quantity time together, she is child centered and I am not. We are both more fulfilled. So I guess my suggestion is: go communal.









Someone tell my dh that!

Can I get an Amen?


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

Calm, I'm envious. That sounds so wonderful to me. I've often thought that communal living would feel so much more natural for me. Unfortunately, it's not very easy to make it a reality. I agree wholeheartedly that nobody should be responsible for fulfilling all of another's needs. Maybe if mama isn't feeling up to it, she could help her ds find other ways of meeting his need for connection, (with people in general, not her specifically.) We can do that without communal living.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

FWIW: If my kid was destroying stuff I would take it as a serious request for connection. I would ask why she did it. If she said because she liked it, I'd ask what she liked about it.

And go from there.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
FWIW: If my kid was destroying stuff I would take it as a serious request for connection..











This is not a solution to the problem. It just further backs me into the corner that AP seems to always back me into "You need to give more more more more more more more."

I don't know how you all don't go completley insane!









I am going insane and I am not even practicing AP right now.

I hardly have anything else to give at the moment. And with a new baby on the way, its going to get even harder.

I do not want my kids to learn to rely on an outside source for all of their "needs" all the time. I cannot fathom what that does to an adult!

I guess we will see when the AP'ers kids grow up.









Can you understand that "He needs more attention" is not a solution to the problem "He is destroying my things?"







: It is so odd to me that you would actually reward poor choices. Oh well....lots of different parenting schools, right?







:

I need more solutions for problems "in the moment." because I tend to freeze up. And "lavishing attention on him" right after he tears up my screen seems....uhh...not very smart on my part.







:


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## waiflywaif (Oct 17, 2005)

So WHAT are you looking for? Are you asking if it's "okay" to impose a consequence for destroying the screens? Of course it's okay. Are you looking for examples of appropriate consequences?

These things aren't mutually exclusive, you know. Sure, some people don't believe in consequences. Some people believe in harsh discipline. And a lot of people believe in BOTH trying to establish a connection with a child (asking why he's doing what he's doing, explaining why it's not okay, giving him more attention) AND giving age-appropriate consequences for clearly out-of-bounds actions.

If my 4-year-old daughter deliberately destroyed something, we'd talk about why. She'd know it was wrong. She'd know I was disappointed, or even angry. She'd know I still loved her.

Then, depending on a lot of things---the value of the thing destroyed, whether it was the first time she did it or if it had happened before, whether I thought it was just normal little-kid bad impulse-control or more deliberate---I would either let it go or impose a consequence. I don't see anything wrong with a limited withdrawal of an enjoyable activity (such as computer time or having dessert) as a consequence, although I know some people do. A bright 4-year-old is old enough to make the connection between their action and that consequence, especially if it's immediate, well-explained (maybe even with a "last chance" warning), and time-limited (ie, no TV tonight because of this screen-ripping,which we've already talked about).

I see these kinds of posts a lot from you, where you claim to "just not know what to do!!!!" but get defensive when people have suggestions. Maybe some more explanation of what you're looking for would help.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

I don't want to sound preachy, because I am no AP angel, but being AP is about being PROACTIVE in our parenting. It's preventative, rather than reactionary.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
Can you understand that "He needs more attention" is not a solution to the problem "He is destroying my things?"







: It is so odd to me that you would actually reward poor choices. Oh well....lots of different parenting schools, right?







:

One, I would argue that it IS a very good solution to the problem.

Second, I don't see how attention is a _reward_. If attention is treated as a reward and not a part of just everyday interaction, the result I see coming about is kids who see your attention being a measurement of their merit and worth. Is that what you think it should be?

The attention is PREVENTATIVE, not causative. You give the attention _before_ they ask for it and they likely won't feel the need to destroy stuff they KNOW you care about anymore, to get attention, albeit negative...plus they won't have time, which is just an added bonus.









How does it not drive us crazy? Well, it often DOES. To cope with that and minimize it in my house, I take turns with my husband, my babysitter, and our loving neighbors (who are sort of our surrogate grandparents, living so far from home as we do). If I need a break, I ask for one..._before_ I lose it. Sometimes they aren't around and I have to keep it up alone. Sometimes, I fail. I shout. I cry. I breakdown. But I get back up and do it again because I know it's what's best for my kid.

The more kids you have, the harder it has got to be, no doubt. But if you didn't want this sort of loving environment for your kids, you wouldn't be here asking for advice, right?

Quote:

I need more solutions for problems "in the moment." because I tend to freeze up. And "lavishing attention on him" right after he tears up my screen seems....uhh...not very smart on my part.







:
And I can see how that might be hard to digest, after all everything in society tells us that if a kid acts up we ought to ignore him, punish him, make him feel ashamed for behaving out of line. But that's not really the message you want to send him, is it? Being ashamed of his impulses...and if getting attention = being good, then witholding attention ought to send just that message, no?

And well, _lavishing_? That's a strong word, trans. I mean giving a kid some extra attention when they ask for it (be it verbally or through misbehavior), isn't exactly like giving them diamond necklaces, is it?

*I think most people here just want you to avoid being in that moment in the first place. Isn't THAT really the point...how to STOP him from ripping the screens rather than how to confront him when he DOES rip the screen?*

You have several choices in front of you. But you are the only one who knows what's right for you and your kid. If you just CAN'T take the pressure anymore, if you truly have NOTHING left to give, then remove _him_ from the temptation BEFORE it happens.

To me, it sounds like you are just really overwhelmed. I would encourage you to show this site to your DP and let him know how much you need his help to be "AP", especially now with all those pregger hormones in your bloodstream. His instinct (if he's anything like most men I know) will be to withdraw, give you "space" to help you work through your emotions and "deal". That is the way the testosterone ladden half of our species seem deal with trouble. Tell him that he is reading you wrong, and that actually you need his help...NOW, and that actually YOUR needs, as the carrier of his next child really really ARE more important than whatever crap he's got on his table at the moment.

I don't know anyone who isn't struggling with being AP in today's society. Our social structures just aren't built for it. It requires everyone in the household pulling their weight.

On a side note: Just playing armchair psychologist here, your son is four? He was already "replaced" by a younger sister, no? And now another one is one the way? I bet he's fighting for power and territory. I would try letting him know that this is NOT the way to fight for it. If he wants territory (ie a piece of you and daddy, that's all for him) let him know how to ask for it _productively_. Maybe schedule special him and mommy & daddy time, just the three of you. He might be feeling really vulnerable right now, and not know how to express that any other way.

In the meantime, tell him that if he rips another screen, you will take away a privilege of his...and then _do it._


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hakeber* 

I don't know anyone who isn't struggling with being AP in today's society. Our social structures just aren't built for it. It requires everyone in the household pulling their weight.

On a side note: Just playing armchair psychologist here, your son is four? He was already "replaced" by a younger sister, no? And now another one is one the way? I bet he's fighting for power and territory. I would try letting him know that this is NOT the way to fight for it. If he wants territory (ie a piece of you and daddy, that's all for him) let him know how to ask for it _productively_. Maybe schedule special him and mommy & daddy time, just the three of you. He might be feeling really vulnerable right now, and not know how to express that any other way.

In the meantime, tell him that if he rips another screen, you will take away a privilege of his...and then _do it._

I am the only person in my family who is "AP" so I have to kind of try and work with my dh, who belives in traditional corporal punishment.

My dh would NEVER help me to give the kids more attention when they are acting up. Even though I may be able to see the merit of it, I can't do it alone. But I am alone. So it kind of is what it is. I have to do the best I can, alone. (My other support people are the same way-they think I am insane.) Unfortunatly, I hear alot of "Kids need xyz" IN FRONY OF MY CHILDREN from everyone they love and trust. So they are likley very confused. And I dont know how to change that situation.

I can see the point about ds being "replaced" and I hadn't even considered it before...(Cause my brain is so scattered trying to meet everyones immediete needs, and I cant seem to look aheaad to the future to try and prevent issues. I am too busy dealing with issues that are happening to be able to prevent.)

I have some thinking to do. I dont know where the energy is going to come from. But I am trying really hard to be all things to all people. Really really hard. I fail most days...but if I dont dwell on the failures I might be able to pull out of my rut.


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed*
This is not a solution to the problem. It just further backs me into the corner that AP seems to always back me into "You need to give more more more more more more more."

I understand what you're saying, but helping your child get his needs met doesn't mean that you have to be the one doing all the work. Can you help him get some connection or attention, engagement with others? Because chances are he doesn't know how to do this on his own. It's okay that you are worn out, and it's also okay if your ds needs more than he is getting. There is more than one possible solution to this which doesn't involve you doing everything. Could you arrange time for him with a caregiver? With some other children? Could he go to a playgroup? Our libraries have free sessions for children of all ages, which usually include story time, a craft, and a puppet show. We also have a local family resource center which has a free play room for children, (sometimes just a new environment and new toys are enough stimulation.) Are there any things like these around you that you could take advantage of?

Most young children don't have the resources to meet these needs on their own. They can't say, "I'm bored and restless, I think I'll go out and see some people and do something new." They rely on us to provide these opportunities for them.


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:

My dh would NEVER help me to give the kids more attention when they are acting up. Even though I may be able to see the merit of it, I can't do it alone. But I am alone. So it kind of is what it is. I have to do the best I can, alone. (My other support people are the same way-they think I am insane.)
If your dh is not a reliable source of support for you, then you could look to others to find the support you need. Have you looked into LLL meetings in your area? Most of the moms I met there were very AP, and very gentle with their children.

I can't help but get from your posts that you are really just worn out and overwhelmed. Sometimes feeling that way can magnify issues that aren't really as big as they need to be. So that every little thing seems like a really big deal, and you have to do something about it, but you're already sure that nothing will work. Excuse me if I'm way off, but that's the feeling I get from your posts.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abac* 
I understand what you're saying, but helping your child get his needs met doesn't mean that you have to be the one doing all the work. Can you help him get some connection or attention, engagement with others? Because chances are he doesn't know how to do this on his own. It's okay that you are worn out, and it's also okay if your ds needs more than he is getting. There is more than one possible solution to this which doesn't involve you doing everything. Could you arrange time for him with a caregiver? With some other children? Could he go to a playgroup? Our libraries have free sessions for children of all ages, which usually include story time, a craft, and a puppet show. We also have a local family resource center which has a free play room for children, (sometimes just a new environment and new toys are enough stimulation.) Are there any things like these around you that you could take advantage of?

Most young children don't have the resources to meet these needs on their own. They can't say, "I'm bored and restless, I think I'll go out and see some people and do something new." They rely on us to provide these opportunities for them.

I keep praying for cool weather, but it keeps being so friggin HOT outside (not to mention my hormones







) And I tough it out as much as I can (usually once a week at the playground)

I have been taking the kids to a fast food restaurant cause its the only one in town with A/C playground. I need to tough it a little more though...I am super uncomfortable and trying so hard not to be...but I am!

A big thing I am working on is my _diet_...and my CSA farm has just started delivering my weekly share so hopefully, my energy level will go WAY up now that I am forced to eat the veggies! (I was using the excuse of not being able to grocery shop for not eating my veggies....cause my toddler likes to "surf" the whole store (stand up in the cart...buckles DONT WORK!!!!







)

I really think if I can get my act together on what's going in to my body, my body will function alot better, despite pregnancy! I am not eating right and its causing me to totally loose it!







:


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

PS-I should have been more specific, you are right....what I was asking was *"Whats an approproate reaction/consequence"* for the screen ripping.

I have such a hard time with "In the moment" stuff, I really freeze up and feel like I am doing nothing-when really, I just dont want to do the "wrong" thing.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

I think striving to be _all things to all people_ is really quite counter-productive. It's a foolish goal that will set you up for failure because it's IMPOSSIBLE. Try to be true to yourself -- YOURSELF-- and that will guide your heart to do what _is right_ in the moment. You know, as the mother and protector of your children what is ultimately the right thing to do. Trust your instincts and follow your heart.

You don't have anybody's expectations to live up to but your own.

If your DH isn't willing to get on board with your parenting choices, I think it's time to have serious talk about what sort of parent he DOES want to be...like a present one, or a weekend one.







I think he needs to make a greater commitment to making this work if for no other reason than that it is what YOU, the mother of children, want. And for the best reason of all because it is what really helps children grow up into beautiful, kind, loving, self-reliant and responsible people.


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## wagamama (Jul 3, 2006)

I totally agree with everything that Calm said. I just started reading the Continuum Concept, and I wanted to cry, scream, hop on a plane and go live in that culture. It makes so much sense -- both we and our children are going crazy, because they need to play with other children and we need to be with other women.

I put my 2-year-old DS in morning preschool for this very reason. We just moved, I don't know anyone in the new neighborhood, and he needs to be with other kids. He LOVES his preschool (which mixes ages 0-5, so it mirrors the continuum concept to a degree), and doesn't want to leave when I go to pick him up. On the weekends, it gets difficult and I get crazy, when it's just us.

Transformed, sorry if I hijacked! Don't know if my musings are relevent to your situation ...


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hakeber* 
I think striving to be _all things to all people_ is really quite counter-productive. It's a foolish goal that will set you up for failure because it's IMPOSSIBLE. Try to be true to yourself -- YOURSELF-- and that will guide your heart to do what _is right_ in the moment. You know, as the mother and protector of your children what is ultimately the right thing to do. Trust your instincts and follow your heart.

You don't have anybody's expectations to live up to but your own.

If your DH isn't willing to get on board with your parenting choices, I think it's time to have serious talk about what sort of parent he DOES want to be...like a present one, or a weekend one.







I think he needs to make a greater commitment to making this work if for no other reason than that it is what YOU, the mother of children, want. And for the best reason of all because it is what really helps children grow up into beautiful, kind, loving, self-reliant and responsible people.

Thanks for the advice.

I think I might have been born without the 'mothering gene' I dont feel like mothering is natural for me, and I feel like a fish out of water most days. Not sure how to get my groove back.


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## mama-meg (Nov 30, 2003)

I haven't read all the previous posts, because it seemed to be turning into a discussion of GD vs CL, and quite frankly I'm not interested in reading that sort of bickering, no matter how gentley it's phrased. But I do want to offer some advice about gentle discipline for the OP as this certainly sounds like a frustrating situation.

Mama - maybe instead of playing with your kids for two days straight you might try to see how you can encourage them to play independantly but near you, so you can supervise. When I am in the kitchen my son is often with me (He's 3.5) playing with blocks, or cars or whatever on the kitchen floor. If he asks for help I can straighten a tower or make a sound effect, but this sort of peaceful side-by-side work is very beneficial to our relationship. He is always welcome to join in if he wants to shred cheese or put away silverware or whatever it is that I'm doing that doesn't involve high heat or sharp knives.

I would also let him come with you to store and see you buying replacement screens and patching the ones that were ruined. I don't know how to word it, because I wouldn't want him to be shamed but I would also start closing windows if you were unable to supervise him. In our house we can slide the screen up & open the top window pane, which is what we always do because even our first floor has a 10 foot drop to the ground out the windows. Is that an option for you?


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

He only tears windows outside...Usually screened porch ones. And thats his outside play area.









He would enjoy buying new screens and fixing them!

He has never ever been 'by the book' in terms of activitys that work for him, and its always been frustrating for me as a mama to entertain him. He just doesnt like to do 'normal' stuff. But I think its a good thing for his personality if I can just get my act together and learn how to interact with him!

He has a very uniqe perspective on everything and nothing is normal about this child! He is very special.









So he is totally not playing on the floor in the room with me, never plays cars, blocks, etc. He doesnt play independaantly really, at all. (Sometimes....outside with a running hose and a PVC pipe he can flood water through) Very rarely will he play with himself though. And not interested in 'helping' mommy either. I am not sure how to 'make him' clean up after himself or help out around the house. Loves candy rewards but no stickers/stars/other rewards. (I dont want to give him candy for helping with chores! LOL)

Thats ds. In a nutshell. He needs some special attention that I dont always know how to administer.

Man, I need some mothering genes.







Where did you guys get yours?


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

There's no such _thing_ as a mothering gene. This maternal instinct, if you ask me, it's a myth! Every mom is different and needs to find her own style of existing as a parent to her kids. You can't expect to fit into some pre-destined view of "motherhood". It's just not going to happen unless you were already like that anyway.

I swear if my mom saw what I was like every day she'd say..."That's no way to mother!", but I say, Hey! I may not have all the answers, but I am following my heart, and he's happy and loving and sweet and silly and healthy...I've got to be doing something right?









Who knows?

Chances are we will all wind up in therapy one day. No sense in sweating over it and worrying so much. Life gets messy, big deal.

If you hold yourself up to this impossible standard, you'll just drive yourself insane, AND drive your KIDS insane. Teach your kids to be the best them they can be by being the best YOU you can be...KWIM?


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hakeber* 
If you hold yourself up to this impossible standard, you'll just drive yourself insane, AND drive your KIDS insane. Teach your kids to be the best them they can be by being the best YOU you can be...KWIM?









Come to think of it, I think thats why my mom was such a crappy mom...she held herself up to stupid standards and failed and lost all her self esteem and then got mean and bitter. Her mom too actually.

I feel helpless to stop it, and yet, feeling helpless is making me more helpless.

I need to get back on my spiritual path,









Ohhhhhhmmmmmm!


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Mama Meg touched on an important point. Kids should be brought into _our_ lives, not vice versa. If you have always parented separately, as though you live a separate life to your child, it will take some effort to bring it back. But it is much easier to parent that way. Like I mentioned about the CC, where they play around the adults not necessarily with them, they like to observe us, to be a part of it. Not "help", no no no. A total _integrative_ part of our lives. They are learning how our customs work, but they learn none of this if we want them to play "independently" from us, tossing scraps of offers for them to *help* with a reward or praise at the end of it like we are surprised they could manage! None are that stupid.

I was going to come in to recommend a book, in fact, it should be required reading for all parents, esp any who would like to be AP, it's called: Hold On To Your Kids by Gordon Neufeld. Ignore the subtitle regarding peers, it's misleading.

The book talks about establishing a connection to keep children "under control". It's about _power_ vs _force_. _Force_ of course being something many parents resort to because their _power_ to parent has diminished.

You know when you've lost your power to parent as all requests and day to day things start to feel like you are forcing your child. A powerful parent doesn't need force, they say jump, the kid says how high. I know this cos I was raised like this, as were my four brothers, and I raise my daughter like this.

Not to be confused with child-centered living (or what we term "constant attention" parenting). A _connected_ relationship with a child need not require constant attention to maintain. But a good solid connection is essential. Laughter, smiles, jovial mood, light music, singing, eye contact, genuine interest in each other, basically - the way you treat your partner and want to be treated by others.

The biggest parenting mistake, in my opinion, that we've made, is thinking children are in some way different to adults. They aren't, not in any way other than experience. They think complexly, their emotions are as complex, they are the same as us, but smaller. If your husband acts up, you don't impose a time out in his room, or if he is "good", you don't give him candy or a gold freakin' star (well, I hope not!). It is DEMEANING to do this to a child.

They aren't dogs in need of training.

If something is off with your partner's behaviour, you work on the relationship, right? NOT on the behaviour, and not on consequences. Same with kids - reestablish the emotional connection, the relationship you have with your child, and the rest flows naturally.

We've all felt the disconnected feeling when we aren't at our best, and our parenting suffers, just as our other relationships can until we re connect.

To connect with a child think "what would I do if this was my husband/best friend?" And start there. If they are babies, then considering consequences or any of that rubbish is WAY too young anyway. This is for a child, usually above the age of three.

Which brings me to expectations. A child does exactly what you _expect_ of them.

Which isn't often what you _ask_ of them.

I can ask my daughter to put her dress on now but within myself I expect her to sloth around as though I'm not running late for an appointment. And bingo - she does what I expect her to do, not what I ask her to do, or what I verbalise as my "expectations" of her.

Following?

Basically, be honest with yourself when you list your expectations, of anyone, including your child. When you say, "I expect you to be quiet at the Jone'ses for dinner", do you really _expect_ that? Or is the very act of verbalising it testament to the fact that you expect the opposite from them? And they will pick up on that, they always do.

Regarding the matter at hand, it is tied into all that. What is broken here isn't just the screens. That's a symptom. One broken screen is fine, two is childhood behaviour... but a continuous repetition of unwanted/potentially harmful behaviour is a symptom of something deeper. Therefore a solution won't be as simple as "why don't you just... ". It's a complete perspective change. I hope you can find what I'm getting at in all that brief synopsis of a very complex subject.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Wow, that was longer than it looked in this tiny window!


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## riversong (Aug 11, 2005)

This discussion is very interesting. I started reading it a few days ago and I've been thinking about it. Calm, what you write is intriguing. I think I will check out Neufeld's book.

FWIW, when I was a kid, my parents had an end table next to the couch in the den. I loved to take a pen and dig into the soft wood of the table. I made marks all over the side of the table near the couch. My parents told me many times to stop doing it. I just couldn't resist. There was something so pleasing about how the wood would give easily. I was a really normal child and I'm pretty sure I was older than four-years-old. Could it be that your son just loves to see or feel how the screens rip? Can you buy some screen and rig it up somewhere and tell him to cut away at it when he feels like it, instead of ripping then screen doors?


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Heh, turns out I just had a great example happen here today. DD, Gods bless 'er, was being a real snot. A bit mouthy and contrary, argumentative and so on. DH and I stumbled through in a reactionary way cos due to recent lack of sleep, we aren't on top of our game - and of course, this just made things OH so much more joyful... not. Then finally I figured she's bored and is acting out so how about a trip to the beach with daddy?! woot. (heh, got him doing the dirty work but whatever eh?







)

But no, she wasn't interested, she was feeling too snotty and enjoying torturing us too much. So in a fit of recognition I finally just walked over to her and rubbed my nose on her cheek, whispered something stupid, and layed on her lap and asked her a personal question. BINGO.

_Instant_ change of demeanor. Even those who try to keep connected with their kids can forget or lose their way occasionally, but it _always_ works. (Mum reckons it still works with her snotty adult kids







)

The issues get more complex as the child gets older, and it can take less physical and more emotional effort to connect (like, a baby just needs a good raspberry on the belly!), but just like adults, it is the cure for all ails.

Anyway, in conclusion, she wasn't _bored_. There's no such thing as a boring situation, only a boring mind. And she certainly didn't need "more attention". She was feeling disconnected from us, and I was too tired to bother. Even though she was right there, all day with us, there was a sense of *disconnect*, and I lost my power to parent. After a giggle and some kisses from her she hopped up and started drawing by herself, then came in and ripped lettuce for the salad with me, all smiles and wacky stories making me laugh, a totally different girl to earlier.

As you can see, it isn't rewarding the behaviour. Not at all. It is being attuned to her needs, and the source of the imbalance. The whole "reward" thing makes me *shudder*, the way we are taught to withhold love and affection, it smacks of the antiquated "if you hold the child, you'll spoil her". If that's spoiling then RUIN me baby, yeah!

My mum had this secret and it had no name in her day, all I know is I felt respected, heard, and validated and felt that no one loved me like my parents do (still feel this way). Mum and dad were always my best friends and home is somewhere I didn't want to leave - in fact, I'm still here and so are three of my four brothers!. I was never punished (and darnit, never rewarded either!







) but my choices were mine and I was never shamed and I didn't fear repercussions. And to this day, if my mother (or late father) told me to jump, I'd ask how high.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

I think you have this thing figured out Calm!









My heart is heavy at my parenting the last....hmmmm...year....or mabye 2. (The TV entered the picture 2 years ago, despite my best effort for it not to. My dh has different ideas than me about parenting.)

But I am really trying to reconnect with my kids before I loose them to bad choices I have made. I have really alienated them. I think I am a perfectionist and when I dont do everything perfect, I shut down. I have been shut down almost completley for several months. Just turn the TV on and shut down. (My perfectionism comes out with housecleaning too-my house is a mess because, I cant keep it perfect so I dont do anything at all...except dishes and occasional laundry)

I am really scared that I am going to loose them. Because I have been such a bad mommy. I dont know how to do any of this and nothing good seems to come naturally. My mom was crappy, and I seem to be turning in to her.

I cant even get the kids to go to bed without threatening them! (My current mission to fix sleep problems because its not ok to scare your kids to bed everynight. My dh disagrees.)

Anyways, dont mind my venting, I am having a realy really really hard time....and I cant see the end of it....but your posts, are so very insightful and I thank you so much!!!!


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

One of the reasons I am so tortured by my poor parenting choices is because I seem to have an insight into "What it feels like to be a child." I can remember in *vivid detail* alot of developmental stages in my life, I can remember what it _FELT_ like to have my diaper changed. (This is very odd I think







)

You would think that would make me a GREAT parent!

It doesnt seem to. So every time I make a mistake, I see it through my kids eyes...(And then I think thats when I shut down and things snowball) I know exactly how they _feel_, I can remember feeling that way when my mom failed me.

My dh cant remember _anything_ from his childhood, so he has NO ability to see the world through their eyes. He is not very helpful in my "ideals" of parenting, but thankfully he is willing to let me take the reigns cause its my "job" So what I say pretty much goes around the house.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

First,







. No one is parenting perfectly and contrary to some posters on many boards, we ALL feel like that and quite often actually. If we aren't going through those feelings, AFAI'm concerned, we aren't growing as a human and as a parent. Guilt isn't accidental, God/s/esses/the universe/et al didn't create any emotion incidentally - "OOPS, I just made guilt, oooooh nooooo, oh well" *God scampers off, eyes darting*

No, guilt is a necessary emotion to create change. When we feel it, it is a suggestion that we could make better choices. If we swim in it, we can grow. If we drown in it, that's no good. Every emotion has potential to damage, or to dominate, guilt included. And mamas tend to let guilt dominate instead of letting it run through them, like sadness or joy, and then letting it go.

I feel guilt occasionally, and I used to feel a LOT of guilt. New mama, didn't know what I was doing, felt I damaged my first born, wanna start over with a fresh one... it's the same ol' story we all feel. But I was surrounded by people who insisted I learn from the emotions and rearrange things accordingly.

Selflessness is the most gracious act of parenting we achieve, but achieve it we must. I study my mother, my youth in her hands, and I watch her with DD to try and glean what it is that makes her so damned "motherly". And it is her complete selflessness. But only with us. She's not a selfish person to others, but she isn't anything like she is with us. 3am, I can still wake her with some issue or another and she immediately says, "are you ok?" with genuine concern in her bloodshot eyes. Wake ME at 3am and I'm more like, "WHAT?!"







But I'm getting there.

When we can get in touch with the fact that for a short time, our lives are dedicated to creating immaculate creatures, things become easier. When we fight with who we were and who we want to be, we make those "bad choices". We put ourselves first. And contrary to popular parenting advice, this shouldn't have to happen very often. If it does, then we are still fighting too hard for our "turn" and not living in the fleeting moment, the _now_ of our child's only youth: _their_ turn. The only time they'll ever come to us and cry on our lap unabashedly, and call out mama in the middle of the night.

Mothering does come naturally, but only when all the other mental background noise is quieted. We have all these parenting books and are told, (even by AP mamas) that it doesn't come naturally, bollocks to that. On the days (or day, if you're only given one, or the hour) that you notice mothering was easy, analyse what it was you did, and do it again. I'll almost guarantee it has nothing to do with your kid and everything to do with your state of mind. Relax, let instinct in, laugh, and when faced with a choice, make the only worthwhile one - ask, "what would Love do now?"


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

CL-people-here is a CL question for ya, since I have some of your attention.







:

How do you respect and listen to and pay attention to 2 kids at the same time?

Here is an example of our interaction.

1. I am trying to talk to ds, 4, and genuinley trying to listen to him, and dd 2 is screaming in the background as if she doesnt want me to listen to him. And she accomplishes her goal, because I end up getting frustrated and cant finish my sentanct due to forgetting it because dd wont stop screaming at her brother...

2. I am genuinley trying to read dd, 2, a story and connect with her, and ds, 4, is jumping and doing dangerous moves on the couch because I am not paying attention to him. I end up keeping him safe instead of reading to dd. (He doesnt "play something alone" while I am trying to interact with dd...he just trys to divert my attention away from her.)

This is all day long, every day, every week, and its driving me nuts because THIS is why I have shut down. I can't handle it 24-7....I feel like there is never a time when things run smoothly.







:

Whats the CL view on sibling rivalry? How do you deal with it with kids who are sooooooooooooooo young? (DD cant reason so I cant tell her to stop screaming, she just ignoresme.)


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:

Selflessness is the most gracious act of parenting we achieve, but achieve it we must. I study my mother, my youth in her hands, and I watch her with DD to try and glean what it is that makes her so damned "motherly". And it is her complete selflessness. But only with us. She's not a selfish person to others, but she isn't anything like she is with us. 3am, I can still wake her with some issue or another and she immediately says, "are you ok?" with genuine concern in her bloodshot eyes. Wake ME at 3am and I'm more like, "WHAT?!"







But I'm getting there.

When we can get in touch with the fact that for a short time, our lives are dedicated to creating immaculate creatures, things become easier. When we fight with who we were and who we want to be, we make those "bad choices". We put ourselves first.
Miss Calm,

I love reading your nuanced and sensitive words of wisdom. But, I wanted to tease this out further. I believe that mothering doesn't entailed martyrdom, for me. I believe that mothering is a symbiotic (mutually beneficial) relationship; and we are all interconnected. I believe that autonomy is natural, but that we have a interdependent relationship by choice. I prefer to embrace the symbiotic parent/child relationship, rather than the control- oriented relationship. Neither is subordinate. Both are benefiting.

I believe that needs/wants/desires are not in competition. There are abundant possible paths to meeting our needs, ime. Seeking those paths has been amazingly rewarding as a mother. We each prosper in the growth of our connectedness.

But, I don't identify "selfish" with a negative connotation. I believe that my own joy, growth and love adds to the world. I gain so much from the connection, interactions, challenges, and rewards of parenting.









I don't believe that one need deny their own needs with "selflessness" in order to mother. Nor do I believe the parent/child "system" benefits from thus.

Pat


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## happyfrog (Aug 12, 2004)

((hugs))

My 3 yr old delights in ripping/tearing/making the little screen holes way big, so I have done the following:

on our full screen front door, I replaced all the screening (again! - i'm getting REALLY good at it, sigh) and had my dh attach a full sheet of plastic white trellis to the INSIDE of the door. it actually looks really nice - and matches the house - i did it out of desperation but i've gotten some compliments on our front screen door - go figure!

that has solved a significant portion of the holes.

As for the bedroom windows, that's sort of a lost cause, even though I bought a bunch of wooden evenflo baby gates and mounted them inside each window to minimize contact thru the screen. (that and I did it for safety issues).

At this stage in my life, I just buy large rolls of screen and spline and replace all the screens when the holes are as big as my hand - which averages out to at least one/week. .. .

i remind myself that this too shall pass.

I do all I can to distract from this activity, but honestly, it only takes a few seconds to start a hole and then to make it bigger is apparently great fun. ..

I do find that when frustrating behaviors are occuring more than i'd like that I need to reevaluate ME. Am i interacting less than usual - or is their perception that I'm interacting wtih the kids less? - and I react accordingly. I will bring out an activity that they haven't seen in a while - can be as simple as plastic laces and cheerios, lol - they LOVE to eat and string the cheerios and think it's really cool to have a necklace they can snack on. . . and i get to sit and chill out - I'm hormonal and nauseous and pregnant and sick so I totally get the whole I don't want to do stuff, BUT

the trick i've learned is figure out things that the kids think is great fun but YOU get to be 'lazy' during. . .

back to the screens, though, I'm there with you. It's frustrating and gets expensive. ((hugs))

we don't use a/c so closing the windows is NOT an option in the summer.

Hope maybe I gave you some ideas on how to minimize future screen problems.

((hugs))

BettyAnn


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 

I believe that needs/wants/desires are not in competition.

How do you acheive this with multiple children under 5?


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Hi Pat








Ok, sorry all. This may go down as the longest post ever, and I even tried to shorten it. Feel free to ignore at will... (can you tell I don't get much online time so make up for it in one post?







)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
Miss Calm,

I love reading your nuanced and sensitive words of wisdom. But, I wanted to tease this out further. I believe that mothering doesn't entailed martyrdom, for me. I believe that mothering is a symbiotic (mutually beneficial) relationship; and we are all interconnected. I believe that autonomy is natural, but that we have a interdependent relationship by choice. I prefer to embrace the symbiotic parent/child relationship, rather than the control- oriented relationship. Neither is subordinate. Both are benefiting.

I believe that needs/wants/desires are not in competition. There are abundant possible paths to meeting our needs, ime. Seeking those paths has been amazingly rewarding as a mother. We each prosper in the growth of our connectedness.

But, I don't identify "selfish" with a negative connotation. I believe that my own joy, growth and love adds to the world. I gain so much from the connection, interactions, challenges, and rewards of parenting.









I don't believe that one need deny their own needs with "selflessness" in order to mother. Nor do I believe the parent/child "system" benefits from thus.

Pat

Assume IMO or I Believe accompanies my words, for ease sake.

In a perfect world, mothering is a symbiotic relationship, I agree. But for so many families these days, it just isn't the reality. It's more tit for tat. "I'll give you some time now so I can get some reading in later", type thing. Mutually beneficial, sure, but not optimal, obviously.

If any martyrs exist at all in our culture, they are in some minute percentile; suffering has everything to do with martyrdom but nothing to do with selflessness. To see selflessness as some kind of burden or suffering is not selflessness at all - that makes it a _clinging_ to the self, not the opposite. I can see the positive in selfishness, can you see the positive in selflessness? Not just toward our children, but the world in general.

I struggled myself with the whole thing until I was hit with some meditative inspiration that changed it for me. I realized I was gripping to the self I once was, the self I wanted to be, the way I wanted things to be, my child to be. I looked around and found that all other mothers I knew or interacted with in any capacity showed the same symptoms.

Sure, we are parenting 24/7, 2am crying stints, we're there. We put our book down to hear a tale. We clean and cook and work and hug and we call this selfless. Yet most of us would do the same for a puppy. That's the bare essentials of care for another being. Selflessness infuses joy into all that. It is doing what needs to be done, but garnering joy from their joy, not longing for something different. Not coated in resentment, wishing time would fly by, waiting for the sitter impatiently, getting flustered at the ridiculous, thoughtless craziness of children. And so on.

Anger is born from a self-centered mindset, abuse can sometimes follow. Anyone who has analysed their own anger knows it is a very selfish emotion; it lacks empathy and compassion and acts out of a perceived loss or slight to the self. Learning selflessness has literally saved at least one child I know of personally, as this mother had tried all the "take a break" advice, had tried all the tactics but until she came out of her own head, she got nowhere but more disconnected from her child. This isn't to be taken lightly, and what we could most benefit from is learning _expansion_, coming out of the inside of our own head and pushing _out_, not drawing more in.

One thing we don't need more of in this culture is selfishness. We already have that nailed. What we could relearn is selflessness. The parental selflessness that makes parenting easier and so damned beautiful. We aren't really shown before we have children how much sacrifice there is, how much blood sweat and tears will be wrung out of us daily. When we get pregnant, all we hear is how "life will change". This is not helpful. Just as we don't get to see the reality of birth until we're in it, our culture does not really expose us to the truth of parenting because as children we don't parent anything other than dolls. A child's instinct to nurture still hits exactly when it's meant to and all we have to offer them is an inert piece of plastic and a matching bottle. Again, we are missing huge chunks of our continuum.

We aren't prepared. We don't know what selfless is, but we think we do because we're so good at masquerading in it. We can list all we do for others and our kids all the while we are a general heap of resentful misery and the self help section of the bookstore widens. We are still fighting within ourselves, saying we have no "mothering instinct" and all this, when it is right there if we just put our own bullshit aside for a minute. But we struggle, we plummet into PPD, we abuse them, we abuse ourselves, we drug them, we drug ourselves, we go to work sooner than necessary, we escape - just like the addict. For a while some friends and I became even harder core feminists (which was close to impossible) just so we could pin all our desires on our "right as a gender".

Women, we've tried it all. Until we slide comfortably into our role of the thankless nurturer and learn to let go until they get older, we will struggle, and we will rip our children off of their right to instinctual parenting, and we will swim in guilt. The alternative is Loving What Is.

When you say we need not deny our own needs, I just can't see it happening for my close friend who has a ten day old baby - she literally _*needs*_ more sleep, but she will rise and put him to the breast whenever he needs. I really want to work, I love what I do and I miss it, but ain't no force strong enough to have me sacrifice DD's need for a full time mother for a faster leap at my own desires. I will live in a mud hut and eat beans before I go to work without her, or I'd join a commune and work the land for those darned beans. The only way we both gain is if I am gaining from her, or changing what I desire in the first place. KWIM?

Mutual satisfaction is possible, but let's not kid ourselves, we have to change what we _find satisfying_ for that to happen in so many ways. I used to love traveling with a backpack and 20 bucks. Now I love a non-eventful day at home and knowing when my next meal is coming. I used to love dancing till dawn, now I rise at dawn. These changes in satisfaction didn't just happen because their time had come, I made them happen.

The moment I let me go, I gained a whole lot of me I didn't know I had.


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

Calm, what you describe is what I call "Surrender." When I surrender, I feel exactly how you describe. I feel at peace, like I can take all of those risings at 3:00am and _enjoy_ them. He is only young this one time, for such a short time.

(May I have the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.)

I am not a martyr either, but there are things that I have had to put a little more thought into, and surrender to, before I can find the peace and joy in them. If you're miserable, your not doing anyone any favors.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Aaaaaaand, abac just wrote in two paragraphs what took me a novel to write.









I have REALLY gotta learn how to be *succinct*.


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm* 
Aaaaaaand, abac just wrote in two paragraphs what took me a novel to write.









I have REALLY gotta learn how to be *succinct*.

Well, no. Because when I say things like that, I end up sounding like a preachy know-it-all. I can't give the details like your post to make it clear to people that I don't let my ds walk all over me. But the way you said it made it sound nice, yk?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm*
*Anger is born from a self-centered mindset*, abuse can sometimes follow. Anyone who has analysed their own anger knows it is a very selfish emotion; it lacks empathy and compassion and *acts out of a perceived loss or slight to the self.*

This is so true. It took me a long time being angry before I had a very helpful woman point it out to me. And I can say honestly that understanding where my anger was coming from has allowed me to see it for what it really was and to let it go. When I stopped feeling that others were treating me badly (that perceived slight to the self,) I stopped being angry. (I don't think we can get any more OT, can we?)


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## Imogen (Jul 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
Miss Calm,

I love reading your nuanced and sensitive words of wisdom. But, I wanted to tease this out further. I believe that mothering doesn't entailed martyrdom, for me. I believe that mothering is a symbiotic (mutually beneficial) relationship; and we are all interconnected. I believe that autonomy is natural, but that we have a interdependent relationship by choice. I prefer to embrace the symbiotic parent/child relationship, rather than the control- oriented relationship. Neither is subordinate. Both are benefiting.

I believe that needs/wants/desires are not in competition. There are abundant possible paths to meeting our needs, ime. Seeking those paths has been amazingly rewarding as a mother. We each prosper in the growth of our connectedness.

But, I don't identify "selfish" with a negative connotation. I believe that my own joy, growth and love adds to the world. I gain so much from the connection, interactions, challenges, and rewards of parenting.









I don't believe that one need deny their own needs with "selflessness" in order to mother. Nor do I believe the parent/child "system" benefits from thus.

Pat











Wonderful post


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