# NVC Epiphany...



## mbravebird (May 9, 2005)

I posted this on another thread, but then realized it might need its own thread. Please try to make it through the length -- I know it's long.









After Sledg's convincing posts (see http://www.mothering.com/discussions...451609&page=2), I have been trying more "NVC worded" feeling-statements, rather than my own run-of-the-mill owning my feelings statements. And I am ASTOUNDED at the difference the NVC wording makes. I think the difference is mostly in myself, but it is such a radical difference that I know it is good thing for my relationship with ds.

The difference I've noticed is that, the couple of times I've tried it, I've been able to truly release my "I'm angry because I'm the victim" feeling. So, instead of stating my feelings and watching them continue to roll around in my head and heart (which is certainly better than dumping them out on ds), I actually feel released from the strength of the feeling, less imprisoned by and attached to it! This is amazing to me, and all I did was just change my wording a little. I really didn't work my headspace at all. The peace just followed the word change. My example from today:

I took a nap with ds, and we snuggled the whole time, which is sometimes great but also means he twiddles and nurses more, and when he woke up for good, it was at the wrong time in my sleep cycle and I did NOT want to be poked or prodded or twiddled or pinched. He does this to the mole on my belly. Normally a very endearing activity, and one that we rely on for comfort lots during the day. But at that time in my sleep cycle, I felt like I was going to run screaming from the room if he continued to "pat the mole". I felt like I was gonna go crazy, and managed to grump in a semi-polite, barely-veiled way that I didn't want him to pat the mole and that I was still waking up. He could tell I was upset, of course, and got upset himself. When I had woken up more, this is how the conversation went:

"I'm sorry I was grumpy before. I know you wanted to pat the mole, but I just needed a little space for a while." (Non-NVC attempt. Sounds fine, right? But I am also still feeling a mix of guilt and resentment and defensiveness about having to have my darn mole patted!) so then, I tried a more NVC approach:

"I have a need for space when I first wake up, and my need wasn't being met. It wasn't your fault." (LAAAA angels singing here as I magically STOP FEELING FRUSTRATED!!! How did that happen? I just changed the wording a little bit!)

Ds then says "But now you're better!!" and I say, with genuine relief and honesty, "Yes, I am feeling better." And we go on to read a book.

I think the wording somehow made me realize that IT REALLY WASN'T HIS FAULT. Does this make sense to the rest of you? It sounds elementary, but I think I really released him from responsibility for the first time, and realized that my needs are always going to be in only varying stages of being met, and that's life, not him. I can always work on improving my needs getting met, hence communicating, but I can also just settle with the fact that they're not always going to get met, and that I don't need to get mad at anybody for it... Ahh I'm losing my train of thought. I'm trying to catch what's happening in my brain and I can't do it quite yet.

All I can tell you is that both times I've tried the new wording I've found it much easier, like angels-give-it-to-you-on-a-platter easier, to release my harping resentment at the other person.

Can someone else translate my epiphany any better???

And can I get some more pointers?? Can we talk some more about this?


----------



## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I think that's wonderful that NVC seems to be helping you! I have been using these techniques as well... our daughter is a bit too young yet though I do use them with her-- but it even makes such a difference with anyone else I'm communicating with too. I also love the chapter in the book "The Four Agreements" titled "take nothing personally" -- it seems to touch on a lot of the same elements of owning your own feelings and that nothing anyone does is because of you, and similarly, nothing we do is because of someone else.

It is difficult for me at times to change my wording and thinking -- this society seems to be very *victim* focused in many ways, but the point is, I am trying every day for the betterment of myself, and hopefully that will extend to our daughter as she learns how to communicate.

Thank you for sharing your successes


----------



## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Thanks for sharing!

To be honest, I did not read much on NVC other than in the posts here on MDC, but have to say - your post intrigued me.

I gotta read up more on this - I do fall into a self-pity mode from time to time and so not like it one little bit...


----------



## Kontessa (Nov 5, 2005)

I am so happy for you!

I have been working on NVC for a few months now and am not at your level yet. I am amazed how different I can see the world when I am using it and how much better I feel. I told the last practice circle I was leader for that I really think it is more about changing and yourself then it is about changing others around you. Too many people, including myself sometimes, get caught up with it "Working" in other words, getting what they want from someone else.

Could you share more of you talks here with us? I need the practice and perspective. I am the only Mama in my practice circle!

Blessings,
Kimmy


----------



## Starflower (Sep 25, 2004)

I've been interested in NVC for a long time now but haven't managed to read up much on it, or put much into practice. I see now that it's a very good time for me to MAKE time to do this. DD and I were having a rough day today and it would've been very helpful for us both.

Glad to hear a story of how NVC can work in a parenting relationship. (I know it can and does and I do have a friend who is very active in the NVC movement, but he's single w/out kids so it's kind of nice to have some first-hand mama talk about it.)


----------



## SabDoulaMommy (Dec 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Starflower*
I've been interested in NVC for a long time now but haven't managed to read up much on it, or put much into practice.

Me too!
Thank you for sharing! I was really in a self-pity mode today (heck, was? AM!). I'm going to do more NVC research & try hard to incorporate it in my life.


----------



## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Am I the only one who really doesn't like NVC? It feels very manipulative to me, and not really honest.

I'm not criticizing those who like it, I just don't see the appeal.

I'm glad it works for you though.


----------



## mbravebird (May 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kontessa*
Could you share more of you talks here with us? I need the practice and perspective. I am the only Mama in my practice circle!

What are practice circles?

And what are the first steps to take to get more involved? I really could use some direction, as I am just working from my understanding of NVC gleaned from MDC discussions and from an email parenting group.

I probably need to explore the website more. Since my epiphany, I haven't been online much because we hit a busy spell. Maybe I'll try to get on that website soon.

And let's all share stories! They are often the best way to learn.

As for the theory feeling manipulative, that's interesting feedback. That's not been how it feels to me at all... can you share what feels that way about it to you?


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I am a huge NVC advocate, but not married to the language. I found your first statements to be non-blaming also. I am intrigued that you found the second more releasing though. There is an official NVC-Parenting yahoo group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nvc-pa...guid=140240070 There are a few hoops to jump through to join. You must apply and then reply to their questionaire and then be approved. The goal of the group is to focus on using the language. Interestingly, GD strategies isn't a priority, imo.









One observation that an NVC friend made was that when she stated "My need is unmet", she felt less hopeful than when she stated "I have a need for xyz". When I said them to myself, I felt much more obstructed or frustrated with the first phrasiology, than with the second. The second phrase seemed to create more possibility for meeting my need in the future by the recognition and statement of my need. So, I wonder if this was an aspect of "I have a need for...." being more comforting than "I needed...."? The slight nuance seems invisible until you consider that the one is focusing on the *lack*, rather on the *need*.

Personally, I don't use the phrase "it wasn't your fault". This type of "reassurance" can cause doubt in a situation which didn't previously exist. For example, we had an office visit with ds's doctor. Ds was a bit reluctant, but then the doctor said "Don't be scared. I won't hurt you." This freaked ds out. He had no need for reassurance of some mysterious "danger" before the suggestion was made. Similarly, I believe the "reassurance" 'it wasn't your fault' could imply 'This time it wasn't your fault. Sometimes it is YOUR FAULT'. The whole aspect of owning my feelings is something that I am working to do to *break* the blame/fault matrix that our culture and my upbringing ingrained in my self-talk and my (learned) projections. So, I choose not to imply blame or fault with my words, or with words of "reassurance".

Dh did this this morning. He said "It was *MY MISTAKE*. I *SHOULD* have done xyz. It was *MY FAULT*." This type of self-talk or 'taking the blame' isn't useful to resolving a current situation, imo. Instead, I prefer to state my feelings and needs and make a request. The lexicon of blame: should, mistake, fault, wrong, shouldn't, etc. distracts and gets in the way of *what I need*.

The whole victim mentality evolves from others projecting blame onto OR "not blaming", imo. When someone owns their own feelings and needs, there is no need to "remove blame" from someone else. Does that make sense? If *blame* isn't a commodity, no one needs to own it. Instead, I believe that we are all doing the best that we can at any point in time and we all have reasons for our (re)actions. I find that NVC is a tool for connecting and sharing the reasons behind our feelings and needs, and requests. Blame is another paradigm than connecting.

I am so glad to see so many others interested in the tools of NVC for connecting. NVC, like many things, could be used for manipulating others with empty empathy. But, the goal of NVC is connecting and understanding, not getting someone to do what you want them to do. The CNVC site has two descriptive booklets about using NVC as a parent. I found both to be very inspirational: "Raising Children Compassionately" and "Parenting From the Heart". They are about $6 each. www.CNVC.org

Pat


----------



## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mbravebird*
As for the theory feeling manipulative, that's interesting feedback. That's not been how it feels to me at all... can you share what feels that way about it to you?

Well, I'm not criticizing anyone who finds that NVC works for them, but my personal opinion is that it goes against what I'm wanting to teach my kids and is relying more on manipulation than other motivations. As I understand it, the appeal made by NVC is based on accomadating other people's feelings rather than based on specific standards. Personally, I don't want to send the message to my kids that they should base their behavior on accomadating someone else's feelings rather than principles and standards of how to treat people or how to behave in any situation.

I'm not explaining this very well. If I'm not intruding on your thread, I'll come back and discuss it when I'm fully awake.


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna*
Well, I'm not criticizing anyone who finds that NVC works for them, but my personal opinion is that it goes against what I'm wanting to teach my kids and is relying more on manipulation than other motivations. As I understand it, the appeal made by NVC is based on accomadating other people's feelings rather than based on specific standards. Personally, I don't want to send the message to my kids that they should base their behavior on accomadating someone else's feelings rather than principles and standards of how to treat people or how to behave in any situation.

I'm not explaining this very well. If I'm not intruding on your thread, I'll come
back and discuss it when I'm fully awake.

Brigianna, are you meaning that you don't want to encourage your children to put other's feelings before their own? Or to do things because others want them to without regard for their own inner voice? For instance 'jumping off the proverbial bridge' because someone feels that you should, or "everyone is doing it"? I know in my childhood, we were expected to stiffle *our* feelings (and needs) and do what we were told or else our parents were angry with us. And their anger included consequences for not 'doing it happily', or 'having an attitude about it', whatever "it" was.

My understanding of NVC is that it is a template (language and process) to seek understanding of another's pov and to honor others by acknowledging their perspective as valid for them. I don't see it as a process of "accomodating" others at one's own expense. What I have observed on the NVC parenting site is that the goal of _changing another's pov_ is frowned upon/taboo. *I* find this challenging.







The idea of principles and standards has the connotation of 'doing the right thing'. I do perceive that NVC is not a process within the paradigm of "I am more right, let me tell you why". The goal of NVC, as I understand it, is to connect through sharing our separate perspectives in an effort to honor *each* person's 'principles and standards', irrelevant of the seemingly opposing strategies. The premise is that we all have the same core underlying needs and when we can focus on which needs someone is trying to meet, we can each become aware of what we *both* need. Strategies to meet those needs isn't the focus in NVC, identifying and honoring *underlying needs* seems to be. This is a *non-influential* process rather than a process of expecting others to live by (or adopt) our own principles and standards (our strategies to meet our needs).

My belief is that I can only apply my principles and standards to myself. I really can't change or control other people. But, I have not released my principles and standards when *listening*, and *validating* another's perspective, even if it is an opposing perspective. To 'listen with understanding' is very different than to 'listen for opportunities to change their mind'. (Oh, how I am talking to myself, here.







) Personally, I find separating this process (of listening just to understand) from my mental analysis (read evaluation/judgement) of another pov/strategy is nearly inextricable/impossible for me. The NVC language does provide a methodology for breaking this communication down to *just listening*, no buy-in required.

But, the NVC process does seem to stop there, imo. The follow up that I find missing is *how* to create a mutually agreeable solution to seemingly opposing strategies (principles and standards). In NVC, there is the last step of 'making a request'. However, working toward connection regarding feelings and needs, does enable awareness of each person's needs, and this appears to naturally flow to wanting to find a mutual agreement. So, philosophically *through understanding comes compassion* for helping to meet the needs of others. I do philosophically believe this for myself and I assume this positive intent in others.

NVC is a whole new world to me. I am just learning how to navigate the feelings and needs language. Validation of another's perspective and honoring other's strategies as messages of underlying needs are a "foreign language" for me. I have gained a lot from the www.CNVC.org site. And fortunately, our son is much more adept at communicating his feelings and needs than I was/am. We were taught that our behavior was more important than our reasons. In our family now, we try to focus on the *reasons* or needs underlying the behavior. And we work to meet the needs in ways that are agreeable to all of us. NVC helps us to make that paradigm shift.

Best wishes, Pat


----------



## mbravebird (May 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
I wonder if this was an aspect of "I have a need for...." being more comforting than "I needed...."? The slight nuance seems invisible until you consider that the one is focusing on the *lack*, rather on the *need*.

Yes, Pat, I think this must be part of it! In the second scenario I was affirming my need in a positive way, rather than reviewing my negative experience of not getting my need met. At least, that was how the language allowed me to think of it for the first time. As in "Oh, I have a valid need here" rather than "there's another one of my needs not getting met". I was providing myself with validation and comfort, rather than asking that of ds (or dh or anybody).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
Personally, I don't use the phrase "it wasn't your fault". This type of "reassurance" can cause doubt in a situation which didn't previously exist. For example, we had an office visit with ds's doctor. Ds was a bit reluctant, but then the doctor said "Don't be scared. I won't hurt you." This freaked ds out. He had no need for reassurance of some mysterious "danger" before the suggestion was made. Similarly, I believe the "reassurance" 'it wasn't your fault' could imply 'This time it wasn't your fault. Sometimes it is YOUR FAULT'. The whole aspect of owning my feelings is something that I am working to do to *break* the blame/fault matrix that our culture and my upbringing ingrained in my self-talk and my (learned) projections. So, I choose not to imply blame or fault with my words, or with words of "reassurance".

Dh did this this morning. He said "It was *MY MISTAKE*. I *SHOULD* have done xyz. It was *MY FAULT*." This type of self-talk or 'taking the blame' isn't useful to resolving a current situation, imo. Instead, I prefer to state my feelings and needs and make a request. The lexicon of blame: should, mistake, fault, wrong, shouldn't, etc. distracts and gets in the way of *what I need*.

The whole victim mentality evolves from others projecting blame onto OR "not blaming", imo. When someone owns their own feelings and needs, there is no need to "remove blame" from someone else. Does that make sense? If *blame* isn't a commodity, no one needs to own it. Instead, I believe that we are all doing the best that we can at any point in time and we all have reasons for our (re)actions. I find that NVC is a tool for connecting and sharing the reasons behind our feelings and needs, and requests. Blame is another paradigm than connecting.

This is SO IMPORTANT for me to hear. I need to read it over and over. I still don't get it. I have always heard, and believed it to be true, that blame is not a useful paradigm, but I have never understood how or why that is true. My habit is first and foremost to blame _myself_ which eventually, in an intimate enough relationship, turns into blaming others. I notice that I feel _very_ soothed by "taking responsibility", as if it makes me into a "good girl" again, someone that is worthy of respect or care. But I think what I am really doing is taking blame, and I end up resenting it or feeling beleagered by it. It has never worked for me, but I have never quite understood how I could live in a world where I did not ask myself to bear blame for things as a way of keeping peace and harmony. (and then, on the flip side of the coin, get crazily needy for other people to "bear blame" in order to take stuff _off_ of my shoulders.)

Yikes. I know what this stuff is connected to in my childhood.








Like I said, I still don't quite understand the alternative from your post, although it's turning on lights that haven't turned on before. I'll have to read your post again a few times. Thanks so much for sharing your perspective on this.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna*
Personally, I don't want to send the message to my kids that they should base their behavior on accomadating someone else's feelings rather than principles and standards of how to treat people or how to behave in any situation.

I really agree with this. NVC doesn't seem to be asking this, though, imo. My sense of it, and certainly my experience in trying it, is that our own needs are very much as important as the other person's. As I mentioned above, my habit is to put the needs of the other person first in order to soothe myself, which always backfires and is something I am trying to _un_learn. So the revolutionary feeling for me, in my original story, was that I could have a valid need _without_ having to suppress it AND without demanding that the other person meet it for me. Both of those are traps I get into that have not worked for me in the past.

Oh, ds is waking up -- gotta go. Haven't edited and dunno if it's all clear!! More later.


----------



## Kontessa (Nov 5, 2005)

This is from the Nonviolent communication - A language of Life - 2nd edition.

"If our objective is only to change people and thier behavior or to get our way, then NVC is not an appropriate tool. The process is designed for those of us who would like others to change and respond, but only if they choose to do so willingly and compassionately."

The point is to speak in ways that opens doors to let us and others get our needs met.

Practice Circles -- They meet in many places, a group of people who choose to gather together and used the books and workbook or just talk about how they put this into their lives. What has worked and has not. NVC is not easy. It is like trying to rewire ourselves. Many of us fight so much of it for so long just trying to grasp the basics, the language. Our group is foing by the above book and work book for the moment. We also add our real life situations that we would like to get feedback on or just be heard about. It does help. But again, I am the only parent!

Most everyone in the group, even the guy fighting it the most, has noticed a change in themselves and that is more inportant we have agreed, then getting our needs met. We see other ways to get our needs met. Tiny words have changed our day to day lives, in ourselves. It has made our lives better even if nothing has changed in the outside world. For almost all though, we have noticed change in others around us.

Wow am I long winded. LOL I have a passion for this!

Blessings,
Kimmy


----------



## Kontessa (Nov 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
Dh did this this morning. He said "It was *MY MISTAKE*. I *SHOULD* have done xyz. It was *MY FAULT*." This type of self-talk or 'taking the blame' isn't useful to resolving a current situation, imo. Instead, I prefer to state my feelings and needs and make a request. The lexicon of blame: should, mistake, fault, wrong, shouldn't, etc. distracts and gets in the way of *what I need*.









:

I agree that blame and such language that goes with it gets in the way! I wonder, do children naturally blame others or do we teach them too?

I battle a lot of negative self talk and self blame.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
The CNVC site has two descriptive booklets about using NVC as a parent. I found both to be very inspirational: "Raising Children Compassionately" and "Parenting From the Heart". They are about $6 each. www.CNVC.org
Pat

They are thin booklets and I think perfect for the car, pocket book, baby bag, bathroom, beach, bath tub.... Any place you have just a little time to read and brush up!


----------



## Kontessa (Nov 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna*
Personally, I don't want to send the message to my kids that they should base their behavior on accomadating someone else's feelings rather than principles and standards of how to treat people or how to behave in any situation.

I'm not explaining this very well. If I'm not intruding on your thread, I'll come back and discuss it when I'm fully awake.

Tis ok Mama, I do not feel myself being very clear either.

I can say though that I am reminded often in practice circle and the book and the speakers we have had from NVC trained group, that

IT IS NOT OUR JOB TO MEET EVERYONES NEEDS! LOL I put it in all caps as I am reminded of this a lot! LOL It is however benifitial to all to KNOW what others needs are so we can better communicate with them. If they are saying negative things to us, why are they doing it?

Mostly I believe this is first and formost an internal journey. Most people do not have a clue what their own needs are, why they do things, why they are sad or happy. They can name a stratagy or two but are not clear about feelings and needs.

I have notice with people who have this language down, things are more simple! They are not time waisters. Knowing their feelings and needs they have stratagies that work for them. They have clear goals and reach them!

Might you tell me if I or any of us have helped you any with this?

Would you be willing to tell me what experience you have with NVC so I might know more of where your coming from?

Blessings,
Kimmy


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kontessa*
I can say though that I am reminded often in practice circle and the book and the speakers we have had from NVC trained group, that

IT IS NOT OUR JOB TO MEET EVERYONES NEEDS! LOL I put it in all caps as I am reminded of this a lot! LOL It is however benifitial to all to KNOW what others needs are so we can better communicate with them. If they are saying negative things to us, why are they doing it? Kimmy

I am about to go out the door. So, I can't post much now. But, perhaps this is the sticking point that I have with NVC on the NVC-Parenting list. I do not believe that this thinking is compatible with providing and nurturing attentive, attuned and connected relationships with dependent children. The "me first" focus that this implies, merely provides superficial platitudes (empty empathy) without commitment to another's life satisfaction. I don't believe that relationships must be either "not my job" or "martyrdom". I find it fascinating that you expressed this perception of the philosophy with such vigor. This self-talk is so mainstream, imo. And I do see it consistently incorporated in the NVC-Parenting group. Hmmmmm.....I don't choose this paradigm with the relationships I have with our son or dh. Nor do I want to. We have an interdependent and syergistic dynamic which incorporates all of our needs as equal. I am so intrigued that I had NOT seen this espoused about NVC.

We choose to Live Consensually instead. I believe that all needs can be addressed to mutual satisfaction through seeking positive consent to solutions which affect others. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consensual-living/ To me, NVC is a tool of identifying and validating *underlying needs* in my opinion, but I see how it seems to halt at solutions. I will look into this aspect of NVC with interest. Thanks for sharing.

Pat


----------



## Ayala Eilon (Apr 8, 2006)

I use and love NVC to a degree. I love modeling to my children speaking without blame and noticing my and other's feelings and needs. I also find that it is easy to misinterpret this emphasis on feelings and needs and wallow in one's perceptions.
The book, Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves, is NVC for parenting but it takes it further so children grow up not only free of blame, but also free of taking their own needs so seriously. In Raising..., the author also offers a formula that is based in no blame, validation and respect, but her SALVE forumula starts with self-reflection that is extremely powerful and freeing. It also gives specific tools to understanding the need of the child and to reading these needs from her behaviors.
The book is full of real life parent child examples from babies through toddlers, children, and teens. It made the principals more clear to me and took away my reservation. It is a parenting book. So it puts everything into real life skills with children. I cannot praise it enough. I hope you all read it and then we can discuss more NVC mixed with this book. I cried and laughed reading it. And, my communication skills with my teens and little ones have taken a huge turn for the much better.


----------



## Think of Winter (Jun 10, 2004)

Hello,

Thanks so much to the mamas who have shared their experiences with NVC. I am really intrigued, and have read the last couple of threads, but could someone please walk me through this a bit? I am very pg, very tired, and not thinking as clearly as I'd like. We try to avoid praise and evaluating, but it's tough. I was hoping that if I posted some of the things I say to ds (28 mos) all the time, one of you thoughtful mamas could suggest a better alternative? Or maybe some of these things are OK? I guess my two problems are 1. how do I get ds to appreciate his affect on others w/o making him feel responsible for their feelings? 2. How do I reprogram myself so that I don't feel like I need to tell him constantly that he is my smart, beautiful boy? Or is this such a bad thing?

Here are our common scenarios:
DS grabs a toy from another child, I say "Ds, that made dc feel sad when you grabbed that toy from her. Do you see how she looks sad? Would you like to give it back?"

Ds tells me he loves me. I either tell him I love him too, or say "I feel so happy when you tell me that."

or, ds says something like "you're so pretty" or "you're so nice, mommy." and I respond "I feel so happy inside when you say that to me."

Ds throws food on floor. "Please keep your food on the table. I get very tired and frustrated when you make a big mess."

Ds helps me with something. "Thank you for helping me clean up those toys. That was really kind to help me."

Help, please?


----------



## Ayala Eilon (Apr 8, 2006)

_Quote:_


Originally Posted by *colleen95*
Hello,
Here are our common scenarios:
DS grabs a toy from another child, I say "Ds, that made dc feel sad when you grabbed that toy from her. Do you see how she looks sad? Would you like to give it back?"

Ds tells me he loves me. I either tell him I love him too, or say "I feel so happy when you tell me that."

or, ds says something like "you're so pretty" or "you're so nice, mommy." and I respond "I feel so happy inside when you say that to me."

Ds throws food on floor. "Please keep your food on the table. I get very tired and frustrated when you make a big mess."



Your examples are exactly the reason I don't really use NVC and instead follow the SALVE formula in the book Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves. What you say to your child teaches him that he can be the cause of another person's feelings. That's debilitating. It is giving him too much power over others, guilts and fear. On the other side it teaches him that his own feelings are fregile and move up and down based on what other people do or say to him.

I wouldn't say any of these because of these dependency factore and power over others. I want to teach my children that feelings are valid but also that they are emotionally resilient, responsible to their own emotional reactions, powerful and capable of hearing the anger of another without being hurt, without taking it personally. The book I recommend teaches that. Just buy it on Amazon and study it. It will answer all these questions and much much more.

So, if your child grabbed a toy from another child I won't lay a guilt trip on him. Instead I would validate the other child's feelings and engage them both in finding a solution without me taking sides. When you validate the other child's feelings your child observes real empathy without being patronized and shamed. The validation cannot include blame or drama: You don't say, "OH no, that's so upsetting, he took your..." No. You say, "I see that you wanted to keep playing with the train." Facts. The feeling part is an overload for young ones and just teaches them to be more hurt than they are. But you can say the "are you upset because..." and most children don't like their feelings guessed, so make up your own mind.
This is just the tip of the iceberg of what that book offers. Maybe your library can get it if you cannot afford $12, but put your eyes on that book. It is all love and hands on skill.


----------



## Kontessa (Nov 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
I do not believe that this thinking is compatible with providing and nurturing attentive, attuned and connected relationships with dependent children.
Pat

I do not agree. The statement frees people from the thinking that *must* meet everyones needs even at the expence of their own. When someone must do something, there is a great chance they will resent it or not do it at all. It helps people, children, do things for the right reasons and lets them let go when they can not meet a need and not feel badly for it.

This is my problem. I have infact taken homeless people to my home to "help" it never goes well I must say. I have this "must" save the world issue and in the end, it meets no ones true needs.

I think NVC teaches a deep and true empathy that is out side of the right and wrong game.

I could be wrong!

Blessings,
Kimmy


----------



## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
Brigianna, are you meaning that you don't want to encourage your children to put other's feelings before their own? Or to do things because others want them to without regard for their own inner voice? For instance 'jumping off the proverbial bridge' because someone feels that you should, or "everyone is doing it"? I know in my childhood, we were expected to stiffle *our* feelings (and needs) and do what we were told or else our parents were angry with us. And their anger included consequences for not 'doing it happily', or 'having an attitude about it', whatever "it" was.

My understanding of NVC is that it is a template (language and process) to seek understanding of another's pov and to honor others by acknowledging their perspective as valid for them. I don't see it as a process of "accomodating" others at one's own expense. What I have observed on the NVC parenting site is that the goal of _changing another's pov_ is frowned upon/taboo. *I* find this challenging.







The idea of principles and standards has the connotation of 'doing the right thing'. I do perceive that NVC is not a process within the paradigm of "I am more right, let me tell you why". The goal of NVC, as I understand it, is to connect through sharing our separate perspectives in an effort to honor *each* person's 'principles and standards', irrelevant of the seemingly opposing strategies. The premise is that we all have the same core underlying needs and when we can focus on which needs someone is trying to meet, we can each become aware of what we *both* need. Strategies to meet those needs isn't the focus in NVC, identifying and honoring *underlying needs* seems to be. This is a *non-influential* process rather than a process of expecting others to live by (or adopt) our own principles and standards (our strategies to meet our needs).

My belief is that I can only apply my principles and standards to myself. I really can't change or control other people. But, I have not released my principles and standards when *listening*, and *validating* another's perspective, even if it is an opposing perspective. To 'listen with understanding' is very different than to 'listen for opportunities to change their mind'. (Oh, how I am talking to myself, here.







) Personally, I find separating this process (of listening just to understand) from my mental analysis (read evaluation/judgement) of another pov/strategy is nearly inextricable/impossible for me. The NVC language does provide a methodology for breaking this communication down to *just listening*, no buy-in required.

But, the NVC process does seem to stop there, imo. The follow up that I find missing is *how* to create a mutually agreeable solution to seemingly opposing strategies (principles and standards). In NVC, there is the last step of 'making a request'. However, working toward connection regarding feelings and needs, does enable awareness of each person's needs, and this appears to naturally flow to wanting to find a mutual agreement. So, philosophically *through understanding comes compassion* for helping to meet the needs of others. I do philosophically believe this for myself and I assume this positive intent in others.

NVC is a whole new world to me. I am just learning how to navigate the feelings and needs language. Validation of another's perspective and honoring other's strategies as messages of underlying needs are a "foreign language" for me. I have gained a lot from the www.CNVC.org site. And fortunately, our son is much more adept at communicating his feelings and needs than I was/am. We were taught that our behavior was more important than our reasons. In our family now, we try to focus on the *reasons* or needs underlying the behavior. And we work to meet the needs in ways that are agreeable to all of us. NVC helps us to make that paradigm shift.

Best wishes, Pat

Okay, that does make sense, kind of. But honestly I *want* to influence my kids. I want to teach them. I believe that's my job. Now of course I think you can teach without force or coercion, and that's what I try to do, but I don't agree with removing the teaching/influencing out of the equation altogether.

About not wanting them to be motivated by others' feelings, it's not so much about putting others' feelings above their own so much as about motivation. I should clarify that I'm talking about moral issues and safety issues, not personal preferences. If I'm asking my kids to do something or not do something because it's a moral or a safety issue, I'm going to say so. So I would say "please don't hit your cousin; it's wrong to hit people" or "please stay away from the oven; it's hot and you might hurt yourself." The way I see it, this is being honest and giving the real reason. As I understand it, the NVC approach would be something like "I need you to not hit your cousin, because I need him not to be hurt" or something along those lines. But to me that doesn't seem as honest and it *seems* manipulative. Not saying it *is,* but just that it seems more so that way to me.

What I mean is, I would rather give a reason based on a principle or standard than based on a feeling. If that makes any sense at all. I do talk about feelings in that context, but it's not the only thing.


----------



## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kontessa*
Tis ok Mama, I do not feel myself being very clear either.

I can say though that I am reminded often in practice circle and the book and the speakers we have had from NVC trained group, that

IT IS NOT OUR JOB TO MEET EVERYONES NEEDS! LOL I put it in all caps as I am reminded of this a lot! LOL It is however benifitial to all to KNOW what others needs are so we can better communicate with them. If they are saying negative things to us, why are they doing it?

Mostly I believe this is first and formost an internal journey. Most people do not have a clue what their own needs are, why they do things, why they are sad or happy. They can name a stratagy or two but are not clear about feelings and needs.

I have notice with people who have this language down, things are more simple! They are not time waisters. Knowing their feelings and needs they have stratagies that work for them. They have clear goals and reach them!

Might you tell me if I or any of us have helped you any with this?

Would you be willing to tell me what experience you have with NVC so I might know more of where your coming from?

Blessings,
Kimmy

I understand its not being our job to meet someone else's needs, but really I have a problem with framing everything in terms of needs in the first place. Yes, some things are a matter of needs, but I don't think everything is. And I think there are some cases in which NVC is a helpful communication tool, but I don't think it's good for everything and I don't really agree with the underlying philosophy.

I don't have any experience with NVC other than reading about it.

And yes this is helpful although I'm still just a bit confused by a few things.


----------



## mightymoo (Dec 6, 2003)

I haven't read the whole thread (busy morning) but I have taken several workshops on NVC albeit I'm a bit rusty. I took them with the intention of using it to communicate with my children. I was amazed at how useful it was as a way to communicate with myself! In many ways its like self-therapy, if you get yourself to express what's going on in terms of feelings and needs, you can give yourself empathy and understanding about how you feel. I couldn't get over how much better this makes me feel.

Journaling in NVC is very useful. When I do it, I start by 'jackaling' as they call it (just talking normal, judgements and all) then I stop back and translate what I just said sentence for sentence into NVC. It's very enlightening. I believe many of our anger against someone else is due to our own expectations and hopes rather than something they truly did to hurt us. (e.g. your space in the morning issue might be stated as 'I was disappointed because I was hoping to make a quiet peaceful transition from sleeping to waking.') It really helps you own your expectations and realize they are your own, not someone elses and I can often come to terms with the fact that its not fair to expect someone else (especially a 3 year old) to guess my expectations and meet them.

Unfortunately I've gotten rusty, so I really need to re-read the book and brush up. I moved away from the Seattle area where there is wonderful NVC community, there isn't anything here that is near enough for me to go to regularly.


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

bumping.

Pat


----------



## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

There was also a NVC study group a few years ago around here (maybe it was in Books?) that had interesting discussion about NVC in both theory and practice/IRL


----------



## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

First I'd like to say that I love NVC precisely because to me it does feel extremely honest, and because it's focus is on respecting the needs and values of everyone involved. It's not about manipulating anyone, but really being honest with ourselves and each other, and connecting deeply. It's also not about putting aside one's own feelings/needs/values in order to cater to someone else. There's an NVC book with a great title: _Don't Be Nice, Be Real_. It's about communicating peacefully, honestly, and with great respect not only for the other but for oneself as well. And about owning one's own feelings, rather than placing the blame elsewhere.

I get what mbravebird was saying about NVC being empowering. When I recognize that my feelings arise from within from my own needs _and values_ in relation to what I'm seeing, then I am not a victim but instead have an array of choices both in responding to my child (or whomever) and in meeting my own needs.

I think it's powerful to share with my children that I feel a certain way because something meets a need or is in harmony with my values, or that I feel a certain way because something conflicts with my needs or values. It has led to some great discussions.

Thanks for sharing, mbravebird! Inspirational for me, and a very timely and appreciated reminder.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *colleen95* 
Here are our common scenarios:
DS grabs a toy from another child, I say "Ds, that made dc feel sad when you grabbed that toy from her. Do you see how she looks sad? Would you like to give it back?"

I'd say either (not married to exact NVC language here): "I was concerned when I saw you take that toy from her without asking, because I want us to respect each other (I value respecting others). Were you frustrated because you wanted the toy and she was using it?....." Or "Oh, I see that you like that toy and want to use it. I also see that dc is crying. I think she's feeling upset because she was using the toy when you took it, and she didn't want anyone to take it from her without asking. Let's work this out together..." Or "I saw you take the toy, what's up? Oh, you wanted to use it and you didn't want to wait. It can be hard to wait. I see that dc is crying, I think she's upset because she was using the toy and doesn't want people grabbing it from her. Let's work this out..."

Quote:

Ds tells me he loves me. I either tell him I love him too, or say "I feel so happy when you tell me that."
I usually just say "I love you too" and give a big hug. We need not always use words to convey our happiness or gratitude (or anything else).

Quote:

or, ds says something like "you're so pretty" or "you're so nice, mommy." and I respond "I feel so happy inside when you say that to me."
Again, "thank you" or "thank you, I appreciate hearing that." A big smile can convey my happiness.

Quote:

Ds throws food on floor. "Please keep your food on the table. I get very tired and frustrated when you make a big mess."
"When I see so much food on the floor, I feel frustrated because I want a clean floor and because I need some help cleaning up. I'd like you to help me keep the floor clean by either keeping your food on the table or helping me clean it up off the floor."

Quote:

Ds helps me with something. "Thank you for helping me clean up those toys. That was really kind to help me."
"Thank you for helping me clean up the toys. I appreciate your help because it's easier for me when I have help." (or "it's more fun when I have help".)

ETA that it took me awhile, after I first read about NVC, to understand that it NVC isn't about using nice words and sharing feelings in order to get people to do what you want. One thing vital to the process is, I think, being willing to let go of being attached to a particular outcome and instead embrace not knowing exactly what the outcome will be. For me, I am learning to trust that whatever the outcome _both_ my needs/concerns and my child's needs/concerns will be met/addressed in ways that are satisfactory to each of us-that is my goal and so far it has only been impossible when I have not truly been open.

ETA also, that wrt to whether or not it's "our job" to meet the needs of others, I think that what happens in NVC is that I come from a place of deeply caring about the other person and out of that caring comes the desire to help that person meet their needs. It's more like a phrase I read recently in another book, "an ethic of deep caring". This ethic of caring does lead us to work with others to help them meet their needs, not out of martyrdom or some responsibility imposed on us but out of simple caring. Might we ever find ourselves unable to fully meet the needs of another, including our child? Sure, I think so. But when we're caring we'll contribute as much as we can without compromising our own needs and values (though we may defer getting our needs met until later, or seek to meet our need in other ways not involving this particular person).


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Bumping.

Pat


----------



## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Oh, this reminded me---another book that I have found personally to have a strong connection with NVC is Liberated Parents, Liberated Children by Faber and Mazlish. It's a very approachable take on meeting needs...I know quite a few find Rosenberg to be a bit off-putting


----------



## mightymoo (Dec 6, 2003)

Have you ever read Parent Effectiveness Training? His approach has an NVCesque quality to it, though its more narrowly focused at only problem solving between parents and kids - the general concepts are the same, state everyone's needs and see if you can find a solution that works for everyone.

And if I remmeber right he has a component to it about listening which is a lot like giving empathy..


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I have heard wonderful things about Parent Effectiveness Training (P.E.T.). I've checked out Thomas Gordon's book from the library but haven't read any of it yet. The web site is informative too. http://www.gordontraining.com/family...hilosophy.html The problem solving component is the part that I found missing from NVC. Thanks for the suggestion. I have heard that the Teacher Effectiveness Training (T.E.T.) is similarly empowering and remarkably approachable and efficient for classroom conflict resolution. In fact, in NC they just banned corporal punishment in the local county schools and I have been actively supporting NVC and TET training for the teachers and students as alternative conflict resolution tools.









Pat


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Bumping.

Pat


----------



## hippymomma69 (Feb 28, 2007)

Oh wow. Oh wow....oh WOW! I LOVE this discussion....

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mbravebird* 
I notice that I feel _very_ soothed by "taking responsibility", as if it makes me into a "good girl" again, someone that is worthy of respect or care. But I think what I am really doing is taking blame, and I end up resenting it or feeling beleagered by it.

This is going to be my point to ponder this week - SOOOO hits home for me! I've been carrying around all this anger and despite talking with people (including a therapist) and doing some reading I couldn't figure out what the root was....and this is it!

Clearly I need to make time to finish reading the book - I got a good start but then got sidetracked...

thank you ladies for this great discussion....







:

Oh and I just happened to check the Liberated Parents/Liberated children out of the library this week!
peace,
robyn


----------

