# He broke his cousin's jaw



## tankgirl73 (Jun 10, 2007)

How do I deal with this?

DS is 11, hyperactive, excitable, low self-control, etc. He's a fun guy, loves to run around and be silly.

Last night, the cousins were visiting. They were all playing together, it was fine. They get noisy, they get told to keep it down a bit -- by "they" I mean "he" of course. Noise is to be expected, but his volume level is beyond reasonable and he keeps yelling too fast instead of just talking to the people standing right beside him! I'm just trying to say, we don't expect them to be quiet little demure angels. They're free to have fun in our house.









However, I try not to let them get out of control. At one point, they were running around with quilts and blankets over their faces. That was quickly kaiboshed -- not safe. We're talking about an 11yo, 7yo, 4yo, and 2yo. Someone could get hurt. He gets careless when he's having fun and forgets to watch out.

So last night, he had already had several warnings/reminders to slow down, quiet down, get control, relax. Etc.

We grown-ups are upstairs happily playing bridge, then we hear a thump/crack and a wail. It's the 4yo, my nephew. It turns out he got kicked in the face by my son. Here, the stories diverge a bit. He insists he was running and tripped and his leg flew up behind him, whereas my niece says it was running then a deliberate cartwheel. In either case, he was being too careless and his cousin was too close, so he got walloped in the face by my son's highly-trained junior black belt heel.

When he didn't recover fairly quickly (you know how kids will scream then settle down then it's like nothing ever happened), and he couldn't open his mouth far, they took him to the ER, just in case. Yup, it turns out his jaw is broken. Pretty rare, apparently. And it might even need surgery to fix. They're still at the hospital.

I'm just... speechless. I don't know what to do with DS. I don't know how much trouble he should be in. He seems to feel bad, but is also trying to stave off responsibility (he rarely takes responsibility for anything, that's part of the problem, why he doesn't learn from his mistakes). Like he's trying to avoid the guilt. If he obviously felt terrible, like was crying and apologizing and offering whatever kinds of restitution, I dunno, but if it was obvious, I'd be likely to say something like "he's punished enough already just having to live with the fact of what he's done."

But I'm not sure that he is. Maybe he is. I'm not sure. He's still too quick to laugh and giggle and do fun things. Happy to forget aaaaaaaaaaaall about it.

He's been warned So. Many. Times. that if he didn't start to settle down and control himself, not get so excited, then someone would get hurt. Now someone has gotten hurt, an innocent little 4yo, and it could be BAD. And I'm still not sure that he "gets it". I guess only time will tell...

But I'm just... I dunno. I'm furious. I'm sympathetic. A bit. I feel terrible for my nephew, I feel responsible. I feel like I should have been able to help DS calm down by now, or should have stopped things last night before the accident happened. I feel like throttling him. I feel like giving up on him. I feel like locking him in his room until he's old enough to behave SAFELY.

I guess I'm just thinking... at this point, it's no longer about him behaving politely, or respectfully. Or in a way that won't break his own toys/belongings. Now he's shown that he's actually a physical danger to other people. That his carelessness and lack of self-control is negligent enough to be dangerous. And I don't know what to do about it.

I don't even know what forum to post this in heh... I posted here in GD because I want to be positive, helpful, supportive, not throw the baby out with the bathwater. (There's another problem though, what if it had been his 2yo baby sister that get whacked in the head? That would probably have been even worse). Looking for gentle parents to help calm me down and deal with this rationally. At this point I just totally don't know how I should deal with him.














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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Although I think it's all pretty terrible for everyone, doing a cartwheel isn't the same as say punching someone in the face. Although he should have been more careful, it was an accident. So I think the first thought I have is that in this case the consequences were more serious than the offense.

That said I think you've really outlined the problem - he doesn't learn from his mistakes to take care.

I would definitely, if the other parents are agreed, put your son in charge of entertaining this poor 4 year old for the next couple of weeks. He can buy him games or toys out of his allowance and spend time amusing and nursing him, holding the straw, whatever. (It sounds like he'll need to be supervised.) I wouldn't frame that as punishment but as "what we do when we cause harm to someone, even inadvertently.")

I also think that you might need to take some share in the responsibility here. You knew he was out of control and yet all the kids were in the basement alone. That was a mistake too - he should have been removed from the situation to calm down, or been supervised. I think you can take a lead here by taking his behaviour seriously early when he is getting too rambunctious and not just reminding him, but stepping in to show your time and attention and focus.


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## violet (Nov 19, 2001)

Wow - how sad and frustrating at the same time. Sounds like you know your little guy very well and know his struggles and limitations. Have you ruled out all underlying causes for the behaviors you described? I'm just a mama, but when I see kids struggling with behaviors (impulse control?) that most kids have mastered by that age my first thought is to wonder if there is anything else going on that make it harder for that child to reach that developmental point. kwim? I know when I get stares at the grocery store because my 5 yo is pushed to his limit and expressing some of his behaviors that his 2yo brother has mastered, they are judging me the parent and him the child but they don't know everything else he's had to deal with.

That said -- if my child is careless and the result is he breaks a $200 lamp, I don't know that my reaction should be different than if it was a 20 dollar lamp. You know. It was the level of carelessness or degree of behavior that caused the mishap I should judge, not the expense of the resulting damage. So yes, a broken jaw is a bigger problem, but if it had been a cartwheel/flayling limb and a simple goose egg or a black eye what would you be doing differently? I'm saying our adult assessment of how much worse this will be for the 4yo shouldn't cloud the issue of the simple horseplay/lack of impulse control of your child.

And if you're feeling that he hasn't learned his lesson yet regarding this incident, well, it's probably not over yet -- but that doesn't mean be harsher. In my mind, you have the chance to involve him in helping make amends for a long long time as the 4yo heals. Helping the family with chores, making smoothies and cards for the little guy, sharing special toys with him... oh the opportunities. And if impulse control is the issue then whether the lessons are associated with this incident or not, the teaching can continue. bestwishes. And remember that broken bones and unfortunate dramatic injuries can be (and often are) the result of fairly mundane incidents. This is not a dire prediction of your son's future. It's just unfortunate.


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## tankgirl73 (Jun 10, 2007)

In my defense, they're usually left downstairs alone all the time. We never imagined anything like this happening, didn't realize that his being so excited would be THAT dangerous. At this particular point, he didn't seem so out of control as to warrant being taken out of the situation. Maybe I should have seen it coming? I dunno.

I like the idea of tending to his cousin, buying him treats out of his own allowance. Living with the consequences of his carelessness right in his face, so to speak.

I am hopeful that this is finally the "big one", the lesson that he FINALLY learns to slow down and be careful. I don't know... he's broken so many of his prized possessions before and still swings his camera on its strap, etc.

And yes, I know it's not as bad as punching someone. I know it was not deliberate. He doesn't have a mean bone in his body. It's the carelessness... the lack of concern that he has for being careful.

Bittersweet story: I dropped him off at gymnastics this morning. He's a competitive gymnast, trains 3 hours each morning over the summer. His coach used to always 'inform' me of the troubles he was having with DS paying attention, being too rambunctious with the other boys, being out of control, etc. Last year after his first BIG competition, he started noticing a change -- DS was a bit more focused and serious about it. One week early this summer, out of the blue the coach said there had been a fairly sudden, positive change in DS, he was like a different kid in training.

I hadn't talked to the coach much since then, but he talked to me today. He wanted me to know how wonderful it had been coaching DS this summer. What a huge change it had been. What a JOY he was to work with now. How his "uncontrollable energy" was finally getting somewhat under control and harnessed.

Such great news it makes me tear up. He loves his gymnastics, he's good at it, it's one of the few things he's actually motivated in. And yet, to get this on the heels of his huge LACK of control last night... I'm just all the more bewildered!


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

I worry about this with a friend's daughter. She is really rough. And I don't ever allow her to play alone with my kids, because I worry that (because she is bigger/stronger) she could accidentally break someones neck or something in a freak accident while roughhousing. I remember reading a news article several years ago whre an 11 year old (or close to that) killed his younger brother (2) by accidentally jumping on him on accident. I feel for you OP. I think your son probably needs some impulse control help, but I don't know how you would do that. I agree with pp, I don't think this is a dire prediction of your son's future, just taht he needs help controlling himself right now.


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## Quinalla (May 23, 2005)

I agree with the other posters, it was an accident, but I do think whatever you can do to show him that being careless has consequences will help. And yes, it doesn't have to be a punishment, just that when we hurt people by accident, we do what we can to help them recover.


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## Spirit Dancer (Dec 11, 2006)

I would also have him be a regular part of entertaining the 4-year-old as he heals. I would also have him work to earn enough money (or a fair amount of it if it is too high) to pay his cousin's insurance deductible (or help with whatever financial expenses there are.
I do not agree that you should treat this as if it were a minor injury (ie a black eye). It isn't and your son is no longer a young child. If my 11 year old did this my goal would be not to punish him but to teach him to take responsibility for his actions.
If you as an adult were driving while distracted and you ran over a fence pole the results would be very different then if you hit a person. Even if it is an accident one still has to take responsibility and make amends. I would have your son do this. If you yell and punish him he will probably not learn much but soberly having him help make amends as best he can hopefully will.
Good luck.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tankgirl73* 
In my defense, they're usually left downstairs alone all the time. We never imagined anything like this happening, didn't realize that his being so excited would be THAT dangerous. At this particular point, he didn't seem so out of control as to warrant being taken out of the situation. Maybe I should have seen it coming? I dunno.

I like the idea of tending to his cousin, buying him treats out of his own allowance. Living with the consequences of his carelessness right in his face, so to speak.

I am hopeful that this is finally the "big one", the lesson that he FINALLY learns to slow down and be careful. I don't know... he's broken so many of his prized possessions before and still swings his camera on its strap, etc.

And yes, I know it's not as bad as punching someone. I know it was not deliberate. He doesn't have a mean bone in his body. It's the carelessness... the lack of concern that he has for being careful.

Bittersweet story: I dropped him off at gymnastics this morning. He's a competitive gymnast, trains 3 hours each morning over the summer. His coach used to always 'inform' me of the troubles he was having with DS paying attention, being too rambunctious with the other boys, being out of control, etc. Last year after his first BIG competition, he started noticing a change -- DS was a bit more focused and serious about it. One week early this summer, out of the blue the coach said there had been a fairly sudden, positive change in DS, he was like a different kid in training.

I hadn't talked to the coach much since then, but he talked to me today. He wanted me to know how wonderful it had been coaching DS this summer. What a huge change it had been. What a JOY he was to work with now. How his "uncontrollable energy" was finally getting somewhat under control and harnessed.

Such great news it makes me tear up. He loves his gymnastics, he's good at it, it's one of the few things he's actually motivated in. And yet, to get this on the heels of his huge LACK of control last night... I'm just all the more bewildered!

I didn't mean the supervision comment to come across as harsh - sorry if it did.

He sounds like a great kid. Growth is not always linear - sometimes it is a step back before going forward. I do still think though that having to help with his cousin's care would be a huge life lesson that might make a big impression. It is quite different from breaking a camera.


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## tankgirl73 (Jun 10, 2007)

Update: He's not going to need surgery, it's a hairline fracture and should heal well on its own. Liquid diet for 3 weeks, though.

Quote:

Have you ruled out all underlying causes for the behaviors you described? I'm just a mama, but when I see kids struggling with behaviors (impulse control?) that most kids have mastered by that age my first thought is to wonder if there is anything else going on that make it harder for that child to reach that developmental point.
He's definitely got sensory-seeking issues. We can't get any OT, it's not considered a 'treatable illness' or whatever here in Canada yet (we've tried). I've been contemplating whether he might have a touch of Asperger's (ironically, SIL is wondering the same thing about my nephew, it runs in her family). So yes, we're aware of some of the underlying causes, but while it gives us a little understanding and patience, it still doesn't help control the situations much. A bit, but not much.

Quote:

That said -- if my child is careless and the result is he breaks a $200 lamp, I don't know that my reaction should be different than if it was a 20 dollar lamp. You know. It was the level of carelessness or degree of behavior that caused the mishap I should judge, not the expense of the resulting damage. So yes, a broken jaw is a bigger problem, but if it had been a cartwheel/flayling limb and a simple goose egg or a black eye what would you be doing differently? I'm saying our adult assessment of how much worse this will be for the 4yo shouldn't cloud the issue of the simple horseplay/lack of impulse control of your child.
That's an interesting point. I think, though, that if we treated this like any bruise, then he'll learn that he can get away with this level of carelessness with only minor consequences. It's okay for him to be crazy because no one is REALLY going to get hurt, you know?

And in fact, we have often treated minor bumps etc more seriously because the cause of it was something that COULD have resulted in something more serious, as in a "you're lucky noone got badly hurt" situation. He didn't learn from that.

I think he does need to learn that this level of carelessness is really unacceptable because people can AND DO get badly hurt. Yes, accidents happen, and sometimes someone gets badly hurt apparently randomly (my nephew on the other side of the family recently broke his collarbone -- he just fell off a chair!)... something that seemed very innocuous ends up being a more serious injury. If that were the case here, I think (I hope) that I would treat it as such. A youthful accident that ended up bad just from bad luck, chance.

But since this is something he's been repeatedly warned about, though I guess I never thought it would really happen... He does need to learn that very bad consequences CAN happen, that he's not just able to get away with carelessness because nothing really bad happens, or if it does it's "not his fault."

Quote:

And if you're feeling that he hasn't learned his lesson yet regarding this incident, well, it's probably not over yet -- but that doesn't mean be harsher. In my mind, you have the chance to involve him in helping make amends for a long long time as the 4yo heals. Helping the family with chores, making smoothies and cards for the little guy, sharing special toys with him... oh the opportunities. And if impulse control is the issue then whether the lessons are associated with this incident or not, the teaching can continue.
Yes, this is what I'm kind of thinking now. Wait and see what his own reaction really is, how much he has learned naturally, and work WITH that, gently (but VERY FIRMLY) pushing him to restitution with helping with smoothies, treats, etc. I've talked with my brother and he agrees with that idea.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Maybe he'll qualify for help now that something big has happened? Might be worth looking into.

I'd also supervise him very closely from now on. It's ovious that his size is an issue now when playing with his cousins.


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## tankgirl73 (Jun 10, 2007)

Wow, I was away from the PC for a few minutes and you guys all replied while I was typing the last response lol... Catching up now.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spirit Dancer* 
I would also have him work to earn enough money (or a fair amount of it if it is too high) to pay his cousin's insurance deductible (or help with whatever financial expenses there are.

Thankfully we live in Canada with universal health care. Actually this led to a 'teachable moment' last night, about ER wait times and doctor shortages and how doctors get paid a lot of money because their work is so very difficult, DS asked me 'what about if someone is sick and they can't afford to pay the doctors'? So I got to tell him all about the history of universal health care and the current struggles in the US over the issue.

Quote:

I do not agree that you should treat this as if it were a minor injury (ie a black eye). It isn't and your son is no longer a young child. If my 11 year old did this my goal would be not to punish him but to teach him to take responsibility for his actions.
Yes, that's it exactly. Thank you.

Quote:

If you as an adult were driving while distracted and you ran over a fence pole the results would be very different then if you hit a person. Even if it is an accident one still has to take responsibility and make amends.
I agree with this analogy. I do appreciate the intent of the poster who said that, that we shouldn't overjudge an action due to unpredictably bad consequences, I agree with that. I just think that in this case, the action is indeed one that warrants a more serious consequence. If it had been just a bruise, perhaps we wouldn't have realized how seriously he needs to deal with his carelessness at this point. But the same action could have had even more serious consequences. It's just a fractured jawbone. If the same force had hit a nose, or an eye, or a skull of a 2-year-old, we might be having a very different conversation. He's 11, skinny but very strong, a competetive gymnast and a karate black belt. He needs to be careful with his body.


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## tankgirl73 (Jun 10, 2007)

Quote:

I didn't mean the supervision comment to come across as harsh - sorry if it did.
No worries, given the situation it was an entirely reasonable comment that I might have made myself if the situation were reversed. Just wanted to clarify, give a bit more information. I'm not offended or anything.


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## tankgirl73 (Jun 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moondiapers* 
Maybe he'll qualify for help now that something big has happened? Might be worth looking into.

Unfortunately any 'help' he might qualify for would likely just be drugs (ridalin). OT, which is what would really benefit him, just doesn't seem to be AVAILABLE.

Quote:

I'd also supervise him very closely from now on. It's ovious that his size is an issue now when playing with his cousins.
Agreed and he's already been told this. He usually helps looking after his sister while I get stuff done. This is going to make it harder on the rest of us *sigh* In some ways he's 'young' for his age, I wonder if he's just not aware of his size and strength... he's not HUGE by any means (in fact he's quite tiny for 11), but like I said he's strong, and he's FAST.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

My inclination would be to have a long talk about it emphasizing how he would feel if he were the victim and maybe how he would feel if he were the victim's parents and maybe how he would feel if he were in your shoes. Really ask him to consider it and think about it.

Then ask him what he thinks he could do to make amends. If he got his jaw broken by a big older cousin (maybe a 14 year old!) how would he feel and how would he feel if the big cousin just said "sorry" and went on playing? Would he feel a little better if the big cousin offered to make him some smoothies? What else can he think of that might make him (as the injured party) feel better? Would a homemade card help?

Then I'd direct the conversation to what to do in the future when he's feeling rowdy and rambunctious. What activities are safe? What do we need to do to make sure they're safe (make sure nobody is behind you when you do a cartwheel). Talk about the safety measures they take at gymnastics. Remind him of those next time he gets wild. "DS, remember to keep everyone clear like at gymnastics!" or whatever.

I hope your nephew is feeling better soon. And while I wouldn't "go easy" on my DD if she did that I wouldn't ground her for a year or anything, either. I'm sure she would get tired of hearing my lecture, though!

Good luck


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## Oh the Irony (Dec 14, 2003)

You keep using the word carelessness. This is such a pattern for him--I really wonder if it is carelessness or if the way his brain is wired makes things that seem really obvious to others not so simple for him.

There are things that you can try at home to help that don't require an OT--and you already are some--gymnastics is great for him.

I'm probably going to sound like a broken record, but two things have helped my intense impulsive son a great deal. Feingold Diet and Transforming the Difficult Child by Howard Glasser.


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## tankgirl73 (Jun 10, 2007)

Quote:

You keep using the word carelessness. This is such a pattern for him--I really wonder if it is carelessness or if the way his brain is wired makes things that seem really obvious to others not so simple for him.
Yes, I think you've hit the nail on the head there. I still say "carelessness" because it's faster lol... The net result of whatever factors there are, is that he does not take sufficient care of his surroundings/actions/possessions/work/etc. So it is still a lack of carefulness, whatever the cause.

Quote:

There are things that you can try at home to help that don't require an OT--and you already are some--gymnastics is great for him.
We have a weighted blanket. We homeschool and try to work around his particular abilities and weaknesses. He has a wrist thing that he uses to fidget with.

Quote:

I'm probably going to sound like a broken record, but two things have helped my intense impulsive son a great deal. Feingold Diet and Transforming the Difficult Child by Howard Glasser.
Hey it can't hurt to hear it too many times, it might be the first time for somebody.







We've tried Feingold and other dietary things and found little difference. I've read The Explosive Child and some books on sensory kids. He doesn't have temper tantrums as often anymore, which is nice. I'm confident he'll "grow out" of any last remains of that aspect of things. It's the impulsiveness that's still a problem.

Quote:

My inclination would be to have a long talk about it emphasizing how he would feel if he were the victim and maybe how he would feel if he were the victim's parents and maybe how he would feel if he were in your shoes. Really ask him to consider it and think about it.
Will do. I'm actually surprised I haven't already, that's usually high on my list heh. He has a worrying lack of natural empathy, we constantly have to remind him to think about things from another's point of view, and he's prone to keep on playing when someone else is hurt (whoever's fault it was heh). His 2yo sister has like 5000% the empathy that he does already. That's one of the reasons we're thinking about Asperger's, apparently that's a common trait. It's not that he CAN'T see things from another's POV, it's just that he DOESN'T on his own, he needs to be prompted, it doesn't come naturally.

Quote:

Then ask him what he thinks he could do to make amends. If he got his jaw broken by a big older cousin (maybe a 14 year old!) how would he feel and how would he feel if the big cousin just said "sorry" and went on playing? Would he feel a little better if the big cousin offered to make him some smoothies? What else can he think of that might make him (as the injured party) feel better? Would a homemade card help?
Good idea. We've talked about amends a bit (he's home from gymnastics training now), he actually suggested before I even brought it up that he should not play his Smash Bros Brawl game for the next week but only play "quiet" games like Endless Ocean. When I suggested he should use some of his money to get his cousin a treat, he suggested that he could make him a card. He WILL make him a card, but it's not going to be a way to get out of spending his own money.







We'll continue to brainstorm for more ideas.

Quote:

Then I'd direct the conversation to what to do in the future when he's feeling rowdy and rambunctious. What activities are safe? What do we need to do to make sure they're safe (make sure nobody is behind you when you do a cartwheel).
The problem with this is that he already knows this, we've already done this. He does KNOW, he just doesn't DO, when he gets out of control. He is still insisting that he wasn't doing a cartwheel either, but tripped -- which is less predictable. You don't make a habit of checking that it's clear around you before tripping, right? heh...

But that's an interesting point you make... what to do in the future WHEN HE'S FEELING ROWDY. If we had some kind of a list of activities that are 'safe' (more or less) and get him to recognize when he's getting out of control and then stick to that list... Of course, then he has to have enough self-control to stop what he'd rather do and switch to something on the list.







But at least it's planting a seed. We might talk about that.

I should add that SIL is an MDC mama as well, I'd be very interested to hear her take on this when she gets a chance.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tankgirl73* 
Unfortunately any 'help' he might qualify for would likely just be drugs (ridalin). OT, which is what would really benefit him, just doesn't seem to be AVAILABLE.

Agreed and he's already been told this. He usually helps looking after his sister while I get stuff done. This is going to make it harder on the rest of us *sigh* In some ways he's 'young' for his age, I wonder if he's just not aware of his size and strength... he's not HUGE by any means (in fact he's quite tiny for 11), but like I said he's strong, and he's FAST.

I'm not one to usually say this.....but if the alternative is him injuring people....you might want to consider it.


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## tankgirl73 (Jun 10, 2007)

I actually blogged about my wrestling with the idea of Ritalin a few months ago:
http://motherbynature.ca/2009/03/the...to-be-working/

I'll continue to consider it. I dunno. *sigh*


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

I'm finding a lot of interesting information reading about "executive functioning." There's a book called "Late, Lost and Unprepared" that gives a great overview of the issues.

It sounds to me like maybe this is some of what's going on for your son, that this "carelessness" is really about neurological wiring.

I'll ditto other posters re having him make it right in concrete ways, including taking extra care of his cousin.

Good luck. Rowdy, impulsive, active boys can be a pip







.


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## KweenKrunch (Jul 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moondiapers* 
I'm not one to usually say this.....but if the alternative is him injuring people....you might want to consider it.

I have to say I agree. And I'm wondering if there isn't something else going on... Most 11-year-olds aren't that interested in playing with older toddlers. I know I have a hard time convincing my 6.5-year-old to play with my nephew, who is 4. If your son, at 11, is playing with toddlers, you might want to consider that he has a developmental delay.

Good luck... Sounds like you appreciate how serious this is and are trying to do the right thing.


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## homewithtwinsmama (Jan 5, 2005)

I think its pretty clear that your son should NEVER be unsupervised when playing with others. He has high energy and poor impulse control. He is not just dangerous to toddler/preschoolers acting this way. I am just picturing if I had a family member whose child did this to my four year old. I sincerely hope yours are way more forgiving than I am. I would be enraged. This is a serious issue. The growing four year old now has to eat a liquid diet. There is pain, there is the potential for growth issues while the child heals, maybe future dental issues. This is HUGE and I would think that the parents of the child in question would be pretty angry if they didn't see some huge consequences of this action.

You call it an accident, but seriously, cartwheels in the house with a group of children all around? Your 11 year old doesn't know that to be completely inappropriate and dangerous in an enclosed - non-gym space? I have two 11 year olds and they would know that they needed to go outside and have people clear away to do gymnastics. I think you do need to consult a doctor who specializes in hyperactivity and find some therapies or drugs that could help.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KweenKrunch* 
I have to say I agree. And I'm wondering if there isn't something else going on... Most 11-year-olds aren't that interested in playing with older toddlers. I know I have a hard time convincing my 6.5-year-old to play with my nephew, who is 4. If your son, at 11, is playing with toddlers, you might want to consider that he has a developmental delay.

Good luck... Sounds like you appreciate how serious this is and are trying to do the right thing.

My 11 year old nephew plays with my 4 year old son when we get together - not because it's exciting to him, but because he loves him and is willing to entertain him. It's not a sign of mental illness but caring!


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## luluandbeans (Nov 11, 2008)

Your son sounds a lot like mine...when he isn't taking his meds.

My boy is on a daily dose of biphentin to help with his adhd. He has had zero side effects on this drug, whereas with the ritalin we did notice a bit of depression (which is why we switched). On the meds my son is still the sweet, considerate boy we know and love, but he's also more capable of assessing whether or not the impulse that has just come into his head is going to be a good idea or not.

And he's also able to see his own fault in his actions and he's able to feel remorse when he hurts someone. Because he's able to focus on the thoughts, whereas off the meds there is so much going on in his mind he's not able to focus.

Sensory issues can go along with ADHD, my ds has super sensitive ears, has to wear a cover on them when he rides his bike because he really cannot handle the wind against them. Really loud music bothers him as well.

Here's the cold reality of it all: No amount of time, maturity or punishment is going to help him if he has ADHD or any other neurological variation.

And typically people with undiagnose/untreated disorders turn to self-medication with drugs and alcohol.

Just some food for thought.


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## tankgirl73 (Jun 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KweenKrunch* 
I have to say I agree. And I'm wondering if there isn't something else going on... Most 11-year-olds aren't that interested in playing with older toddlers. I know I have a hard time convincing my 6.5-year-old to play with my nephew, who is 4. If your son, at 11, is playing with toddlers, you might want to consider that he has a developmental delay.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with this one. I believe that it's TRUE that most 11yo's don't want to play with 4yo's, but I don't think that it's necessarily NORMAL. I think it's _largely_ a product of our age-segregated school system. I actually think it's GREAT that he can play with kids of any age without bias, I don't see that as a negative at all.

He is 'young' for his age and seems to be most 'peer-matched' with kids about 8-9yo. He's 'asynchronous' in his development, and his emotional maturity is at the lower end while much of his intellectual development is off the scale -- common with gifted kids, and again, with Asperger's.

But it's not that he simply PREFERS playing with young kids, he plays with everybody. He happily plays with the 4yo, the 8yo, the 10yo, the 14yo, and the adult -- assuming they want to play with him, of course.

Anyway, I do appreciate all the comments, even those I disagree with, it's all good food for thought. We'll see where we go from here.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I do not see this being completely your son's fault.

Your son has issues. He ussually does not behave this way. But you admit that he had been warned several times. Hind sight is wonderful there were things you SHOULD have done to prevent it.

Then you get the diverging stories. It could have been they both were at fault. My son slammed his sister's finger into a door once. Who was more at fault? My son that was not being careful or my dd for sticking her hand in the way? They were playing and both had a responciblity of being careful.

Accidents happen. It can take a day or two for it to sink into your son. His advoidance behavior could be a coping (bad one) mechinism. I think you are doing great on trying to help him make "restitution".

I have a 14 (almost 15 year old) and an 11 year old. Neither one has ADD but they do things that show lack of judgement, esspecially when wound up. We have had minor Wii injuries and fights with friends. Even though they should know better we have found sometimes we adults need to step in. Lets watch a calm moving and have low sugar snack. I do not doubt your son was the only "wound" child. He was just not the one not injured.

I might help him in making that card. Finding reciepes to add varity to nephews diet. Babysit while mom gets a break.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KweenKrunch* 
And I'm wondering if there isn't something else going on... Most 11-year-olds aren't that interested in playing with older toddlers. I know I have a hard time convincing my 6.5-year-old to play with my nephew, who is 4. If your son, at 11, is playing with toddlers, you might want to consider that he has a developmental delay..

Eh....they're cousins. We have cousins ranging in age from 2 to 11 in our family playing together







That seems more typical than not, to me.

OP, I'd take my dc every day to visit the child he injured, to offer some sort of care/company/comfort each day. 3 weeks is a LONG time for a 4 yo to be on a liquid diet (and, I'm assuming, activity restrictions and some pain). It is also a LONG time for an 11 yo to check in with someone every day. It might make an impact, say, on day 18 when he feels like moving on but the cousin is _still_ recovering from this accident.

And, I think it would mean a lot to me, as the parent of the injured child, to see the other parent putting that kind of effort into holding their dc accountable. I'll admit, I would be pretty angry if my dc was hurt in this way (even though it is an accident)--esp if there is a clear history of carelessness and close calls.

Every evening, he could make a plan for the next day (finding a book to take and read to his cousin, finding a recipe for a good smoothie, planning a game to play together, etc).


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## kcparker (Apr 6, 2008)

I agree with PPs who suggested that he make amends with the four year old by entertaining him and making him smoothies for the next few weeks. Can you also maybe get him to make a nice big "I'm sorry. Get well soon" card? I think sometimes kids deny responsibility if they are freaked out by the consequences of their actions, so I wouldn't come down hard on him for that, but would just say to him, "This happened. Nobody intended for it to happen, but now your cousin has a pretty bad injury from everybody monkeying around. We first need to make sure that he is well taken care of and that he knows you didn't intend to hurt him and want him to get better soon. And we need to learn from this and think about how we can all prevent something similar from happening in the future." Maybe trying to help him shift from a 'kid' role into a 'caretaker of the younger ones' role could help redirect that energy in the future if he perceives that he is the older, more 'adult' one of the group and needs to look out for the littles, be the one reading to them or putting on a puppet show while they watch or whatever.

Your guy sounds a lot like the son of our lifelong family friends. This young man is incredibly sweet, very energetic, a talented musician, and completely careless - low impulse control, lack of ability to plan and execute, lack of ability to consider the consequences of his actions. His mom is a psychologist who specializes in assessing children, and she had him tested up, down, and 3 ways to Sunday, including brain scans. He received a diagnosis of ADHD and was on Ritalin from age 8 through at least the end of high school (I don't know if he's on it now). She considered ALL their options and felt that in his case, the Ritalin was actually the most helpful. It allowed him to do well in school, be in three different instrumental groups, and excel in foreign language classes.

As he's gotten older, he's gotten into semi-serious trouble because of his neurology - hes pretty much flunked out of college, and not to tell long stories, but he's been charged with arson for playing with firecrackers on a school property (even though he wasn't the only one involved, just the only one the police caught) and almost got sent to a federal penitentiary for trespassing on a military base (he was going to the LIBRARY there to photocopy a language textbook). Both times, he wasn't doing anything with malicious intent, but he just doesn't THINK before he acts.

His parents don't know what to do with him - he's a grown young man now, but is like a leaf on the wind. He's very innocent and well-intentioned, but at some point may get himself into a situation they can't help him out of.

It sounds like you are doing really well by your son to have him in this intensive gymnastics program - any ways that you can think of that will help him focus and channel that energy in a positive way are good. Have you investigated any kind of cognitive training - something like mindfulness meditation along the lines of what John Kabat-Zinn promotes or even some kind of cognitive behavioral therapy, where he runs a little program or set of questions before he does something? One way or another, he needs to start practicing stopping to reflect on an action before he does it. But some of that higher level reasoning and decision-making and ability to plan for the future doesn't come into its full bloom until a person is in their early 20s.

Maybe you've tried all this, but does limiting screen time, modifying his diet, or making sure he's on a good sleep schedule produce any tangible results?


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom* 
It could have been they both were at fault.

Between a 4yo and an 11yo, the 11yo is at fault.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

I think a few of the PP were a little harsh! It was an accident. There are different stories of the accident, but it was an accident. My dh's sister broke his arm by accident when they were kids (she squirted him with the hose while he was on top of the family car washing it), but she didn't need medication because of it.

The OP has said her son has issues and it may be that they decide to look into that further, but I don't think just because he has an accident is any reason to jump to "must medicate" mode.

I think what Marsupialmom said about both being at fault is possible, too. No adult saw the incident. It could be that the 4 yr old ran up to him just in the middle of the cartwheel. (And fwiw, if I could do a cartwheel worth a darn I would be happy to do one in our basement playroom if it wasn't strewn with my little ponies and legos. I don't think that activity needs to be relegated to outdoors or gyms if you have the room. I'd do one in the hall, too, but it's hardwood and I'm old.) Maybe when my DH was a little boy he didn't actually need to be _on top_ of the car to wash it.

I think it's great that he can play with kids of all ages, too. My 16 yr old neice happily plays and entertains my girls (8 and 5) when we get together.

I also agree that his avoidance can be a coping mechanism. My dd1 is the queen of avoidance. She will avoid avoid avoid unless I call her on it directly. She does own up to issues with her sister, but will deny being feverish, for example, in hopes that it will just go away if she doesn't talk about it. She can avoid/deny about other things, too, so that's why I would have the big talk about empathisizing with the injured party.

Make sure he knows that you don't think he did it on purpose, but emphasize that he's really strong (he's probably proud of that) and, although it was an accident he still needs to take responsibility for it. Sometimes people think that saying "sorry" is an admission of guilt. It's not! It's just empathizing and expressing regret.

I'm reluctantly, but firmly in the make 'em say sorry camp (mainly because my dd1 would not pick it up on her own if I didn't enforce it-dd2, sure, but dd1 needs prompting) and that's the angle I would approach this from. You did something really bad even though you didn't mean to and we've got to take responibility for it. When you do something wrong there's three things we need to do:
1) Let the other person/people involved know we're really, really sorry.
2) Make amends (fix the broken window, buy a new toy, get a cold pack for a bruise, smoothies for a broken jaw).
3) Make sure it doesn't happen in the future by having a specific plan in place.

hth


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tankgirl73* 
Unfortunately any 'help' he might qualify for would likely just be drugs (ridalin). OT, which is what would really benefit him, just doesn't seem to be AVAILABLE.

What about a child psychologist? There could be behavior therapies that address impulse control. I know that, when my dd was in counseling (anxiety issues), there were games and activities in the room focusing on impulse control.

And, you could get an evaluation for aspergers at a child psychologist.


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

If you're in Canada and he's on the spectrum, that may be the way to get access to OT. Worth checking out, but nothing you're saying screams spectrum to me.

Yk, my son has low impulse control and other stuff, and one thing I hate is that everything always ends up being his fault - it's called pathologizing the kid with differences. In this scenario, there's an obvious age difference and a pattern of behaviour, but it is entirely possible that your son stumbled/ thought it was clear/whatever and the cousin walked into his heel or some other entirely accidental scenario.

Regardless of who's fault it is, the fact remains that some pretty rambunctious stuff was going on and someone got hurt. I think it makes sense for your son to be regularly present to entertain and support his cousin so he really sees the consequences of playing unsafely, and just because it's the right thing to do.

As for there having to be some developmental delay for an 11 year old to enjoy playing with a four year old... Kids all over the world play in mixed age groups, particularly within families.


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## KweenKrunch (Jul 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joensally* 

As for there having to be some developmental delay for an 11 year old to enjoy playing with a four year old... Kids all over the world play in mixed age groups, particularly within families.


Right... But the pre-teens aren't usually breaking the jaws of the little ones. If anything, they are acting in a supervisory capacity. At 11, I was already babysitting.


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## AngeliqueW (Jan 28, 2009)

OP, My sympathies go out to you. This is tough. It seems like you're on the right track and have gotten a lot of good advice from PPs.
One more idea- could you involve ds's gymnastics coach and martial-arts instructor in having a talk about body safety and mindfulness? Maybe they know exercises to train the skill of mindfulness.
Instead of working against the carelessness, work for the mindfulness kwim?


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## Aridel (Apr 25, 2004)

It sounds like he is starting to process what happened, and it's great that he suggested a few things he could do to take responsibility! Some kids take awhile to think through these things, or realize that they acting inappropriately, but don't know how to express it, or may have an instinctive defensive reaction in the moment.

I have a dd on the autism spectrum, and I have come to a place where I view diagnosis as a tool. It is not a prescription, it is not an excuse, but it can be used to get you where you need to be. If you don't need that particular tool right now, great, but it sounds like something isn't working. He needs to learn that impulse control and self-calming somehow, and it may be that he needs special strategies, or that medication needs to play a role. You're the only one who can get a real feel for what will work. However, as a mother, I found that knowing that we had a name for what was going on, and that I could talk to other mothers helped a lot, though my daughter is more severely affected and was diagnosed young. It helped us access services: even if you can't get OT, you may be able to get some other services that could be helpful. It helped me understand how my daughter thought, and why she did things that really bothered me.

Just as an example - you mentioned your son struggles with empathy - knowing why may help in teaching it to him more effectively. Is he struggling with recognizing emotion in others, or taking roles other than his own? It can be hard for kids with Aspergers to really show empathy, but it's not unkindness, just a struggle with knowing what other people really are feeling, and with expressing that.

ADHD doesn't always equal medication. There are some kids who get a diagnosis, and receive help with their needs in different ways: home programming for you, organizational strategies, things like that. Some kids need medication due to the way their brains are wired. But I do also know people who take medication for a time, and then wean off of it. They can't learn strategies to deal with their ADHD until they have outside help via medication, but are able to apply the strategies themselves later on in life. Some people can't do this - they can recite strategies and demonstrate them all day long, but take the medication away, and they fall apart. It's all in the individual.

I hope the little cousin heals as quickly as possible, and that you find the best way for your family to approach this!


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## HarperRose (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KweenKrunch* 
Right... But the pre-teens aren't usually breaking the jaws of the little ones. If anything, they are acting in a supervisory capacity. At 11, I was already babysitting.

OMG, it was a freaking ACCIDENT.







: And it's CLEAR the OP's son has some type of dev issue. He didn't say, "Gee, I think I'll kick my cousin in the face tonight to see what happens." I'm so sick of some posters acting like this 11 yr old kid should be held more accountable or should know better. THIS 11 yr old does not sound like he is neurotypical. Therefore, he should not be treated as such.

My 9 yr old is quite impulsive and sounds A LOT like the OP's son. My son has a diagnosis of anxiety and Asperger's Syndrome. Additionally, he plays with kids of all ages. It's not weird or bad or wrong and he's definitely not capable of being in a supervisory position with anyone younger than him. I can't even rely on him to keep an eye on my 22 mo old while I take a quick shower.

We medicate him, but not with ritalin. We use Zoloft. He takes half a pill (about 12.5 mg) every morning and he does GREAT on it. It's wonderful for him and it keeps my 7 yr old from constant assault and my 22 mo old from being screamed at. It seems to help his impulsiveness, somehow.

He should definitely be helping care for the 4 yr old when possible, make looooots of smoothies, buy him some ice cream, play video games or something with him, etc.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HarperRose* 
OMG, it was a freaking ACCIDENT.







: And it's CLEAR the OP's son has some type of dev issue. He didn't say, "Gee, I think I'll kick my cousin in the face tonight to see what happens." I'm so sick of some posters acting like this 11 yr old kid should be held more accountable or should know better. THIS 11 yr old does not sound like he is neurotypical. Therefore, he should not be treated as such.

If this 11yo should not be held accountable as if he were neurotypical, then he should not be left alone as if he were neurotypical. It can't be both ways.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HarperRose* 
OMG, it was a freaking ACCIDENT.







: And it's CLEAR the OP's son has some type of dev issue. He didn't say, "Gee, I think I'll kick my cousin in the face tonight to see what happens." I'm so sick of some posters acting like this 11 yr old kid should be held more accountable or should know better. THIS 11 yr old does not sound like he is neurotypical. Therefore, he should not be treated as such.

By the OP's own words her 11 year old son is a highly trained junior black belt - that means that his kick is much more powerful than the average 11 year old. I personally believe that because of this, coupled with his possible developmental issues that may affect his impulses and behavior issues that he whould never be left unattended with other children, especially ones younger than him. Honestly, the OP is lucky that he just broke his jaw as I would assume a junior black belt has the power and skill to seriously injure a small child.


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## Serenyd (Jan 6, 2008)

I'm sorry to hear about this. I'd feel awful if it happened with my son. I guess this is why his dad won't let me put him in martial arts yet, as bad as he wants to try it. He's the type of kid that doesn't understand his own size/strength and has a hard time being "gentle" around other kids/animals. I wonder if this _is_ a type of aspergers?


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KweenKrunch* 
Right... But the pre-teens aren't usually breaking the jaws of the little ones. If anything, they are acting in a supervisory capacity. At 11, I was already babysitting.

I'm sorry, but I really think you're off base here, saying that something must be wrong with an 11 year old who will play with a 4 year old. Like a pp said, it's pretty much the norm all over the world. It only seems strange to people who are used to the school model of socializing. I was babysitting at 11, too. I 'played' with the kids i babysat.


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## AngeliqueW (Jan 28, 2009)

One more thought:
Please don't let this unfortunate accident be the defining moment of your son's childhood. It's a big deal and needs to be addressed, of course. However, I could imagine the harm to him if Every time he started getting a little excited he was reminded of the injured cousin, was made to feel like a menace or if it became one of those stories that got told and retold a thousand times. Don't let a teachable accident become a perpetual guilt trip. Relatives could easily go too far saying things...
I say this because something similar happened with my sister and she could never live down what she had done and carried a disproportionate unhealthy guilt for a long time. It became a shadow over her life.

TCMoulton- It wasn't a kick full of power and skill, it was a cartwheel. Give the kid a break.
JL83- I half agree with you. Every time a group of kids is horsing around, it is dangerous. They should not do so unsupervised.


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## KweenKrunch (Jul 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
I'm sorry, but I really think you're off base here, saying that something must be wrong with an 11 year old who will play with a 4 year old. Like a pp said, it's pretty much the norm all over the world. It only seems strange to people who are used to the school model of socializing. I was babysitting at 11, too. I 'played' with the kids i babysat.

I find there to be a very vast maturity gap between 4-year-olds and 11-year-olds.

And we RU, so my kids don't follow the "school model" of socialization


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngeliqueW* 
TCMoulton- It wasn't a kick full of power and skill, it was a cartwheel. Give the kid a break.

Actually, that is not what the OP's son told her:

Quote:

*He insists he was running and tripped and his leg flew up behind him*, whereas my niece says it was running then a deliberate cartwheel. In either case, he was being too careless and his cousin was too close, so he got walloped in the face by my son's highly-trained junior black belt heel.
And my point was that a child who is trained in martial arts and has attained the rank of junior black belt and also has possible self control issues needs to be more heavily monitored when playing with children smaller than he than your average child.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
Between a 4yo and an 11yo, the 11yo is at fault.

And that attitude is why sister still hates me and my brother. You are the oldest child is is all your fault is NOT always true. Ask around older siblings and cousins there can be much resentment for this attitude. Stand back watch me do a cart will and then the 4 year old moves closer or into it. Some basements are big enough for that. We were not there. We cannot say.

Even if it was an accident and having nothing to do with impulsive behavior the OP needs to help her son make "restitution" and show that he is sorry.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KweenKrunch* 
I find there to be a very vast maturity gap between 4-year-olds and 11-year-olds.

And we RU, so my kids don't follow the "school model" of socialization









Friday night there was 2 - 15 year olds, 2 - 11 yo, 1 - 9 yo, 1- 8 yo and 1 - 5 yo all playing together. The 15 year olds were trading off the 5 year old.

So I really don't see a problem with the 11 to 4 year old especially in a family group.


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## sleet76 (Jun 2, 2004)

MDC isn't the best place to out myself like this, and I hope to avoid flames. So many of your descriptors of your son and his behaviors (especially feeling really, really sorry for things that happen, but not being able to anticipate the future consequences of his actions or learn from the mistakes) are characteristics of ADHD. If he has ADHD, he is likely not to be able to do better than he is without further help. For many people with ADHD, (not all, of course, nobody needs to comment on this statement to let me know opinion on this) stimulant medication works very well. My son is one of those people. He and we are living a much better life since we introduced Ritalin. If you haven't really read into the mechanism of how the drug works, please do. It may be helpful for your son. If not, then I hope you find something that works well.

And I feel really badly for your boy. If he's like my son, he really is trying, and knows he made a big mistake, and I'm sure he feels totally awful about it. But that doesn't mean he'll be able to keep from doing it again, as this is likely something that he can't control.


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## Kismet_fw (Aug 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tankgirl73* 
highly-trained junior black belt heel.


Please, please, please - since your son IS in martial arts, and part of his training there is supposed to be about knowing his capabilities and being aware of what harm he could cause, also let his instructors know about this.

They may have more suggestions for you, since they work with so many children (or as my Sifu does, children and adults) that they have to teach self control alot more than parents do. On my worst parenting days, I don't think I had to go into any long discourses on self control over 5 minutes, maybe twice in the same day, or do more than send kids to their rooms for an hour. Instructors have to bring it up often.

Also, as instructors, they can guide him in ways that aren't just "more parental yelling" that will get tuned out, and they will appreciate knowing. Any reputable instructor will be very clear what they think of this episode, and no instructor wants a reputation for out-of-control students.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Just happened to see this thread. I'd consider dietary intolerances, such as dairy, artificial colors, flavors and preservatives as variables affecting his ability to control impulses, sensory seeking, and voice/noise modulation.

Providing for the sensory needs proactively, just like you'd provide for the dietary needs of a diabetic, helps to decrease the "behaviors" associated with dietary intolerances. One can't consider that a diabetic could "control" their biochemical responses without optimal nutritional resources. Consider reading at The Feingold Diet.

Sensory needs and activities to meet those.

Pat


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:



Originally Posted by *tankgirl73*


How do I deal with this?

DS is 11, hyperactive, excitable, low self-control, etc. He's a fun guy, loves to run around and be silly.

We're talking about an 11yo, 7yo, 4yo, and 2yo. Someone could get hurt. He gets careless when he's having fun and forgets to watch out.
So last night, he had already had several warnings/reminders to slow down, quiet down, get control, relax. Etc.

We grown-ups are upstairs happily playing bridge, then we hear a thump/crack and a wail. It's the 4yo, my nephew. It turns out he got kicked in the face by my son. In either case, he was being too careless and his cousin was too close, so he got walloped in the face by my son's highly-trained junior black belt heel.

When he didn't recover fairly quickly (you know how kids will scream then settle down then it's like nothing ever happened), and he couldn't open his mouth far, they took him to the ER, just in case. Yup, it turns out his jaw is broken. Pretty rare, apparently. And it might even need surgery to fix. They're still at the hospital.

He seems to feel bad, but is also trying to stave off responsibility (he rarely takes responsibility for anything, that's part of the problem, why he doesn't learn from his mistakes).

He's been warned So. Many. Times. that if he didn't start to settle down and control himself, not get so excited, then someone would get hurt. Now someone has gotten hurt, an innocent little 4yo, and it could be BAD. And I'm still not sure that he "gets it".

I'm furious. I'm sympathetic. A bit. I feel terrible for my nephew, I feel responsible. I feel like I should have been able to help DS calm down by now, or should have stopped things last night before the accident happened. I feel like throttling him. I feel like giving up on him. I feel like locking him in his room until he's old enough to behave SAFELY.

I guess I'm just thinking... at this point, it's no longer about him behaving politely, or respectfully. Or in a way that won't break his own toys/belongings. Now he's shown that he's actually a physical danger to other people. That his carelessness and lack of self-control is negligent enough to be dangerous. And I don't know what to do about it.

(There's another problem though, what if it had been his 2yo baby sister that get whacked in the head? That would probably have been even worse).














:

















Wow. I think I'd be feeling the same way you do, anger, guilt, concern that he doens't even seem to realize the serious result of his careless actions. Like you said, a 4 year old's jaw has been broken! That's not an oops, bruise, scratch, etc. It's a freakin' broken jaw! He is a danger if he chooses to not be aware of his own body and of littler children in his vicinity. Honestly, I would likely have put a stop to his indoor roughhousing the first time he didn't listen when told to tone it down. I'd say he has clearly shown he does not have the personal responsibility to be trusted around any children younger than him. He just doesn't.

I have a 12 year old step son, a 4 year old daughter and a 3 year old daughter. I never allow them to wrestle/play unsupervised anymore because the 12 year old is careless and doesn't seem to care about my daughters' safety. The concept of sending someone like him off with a 7 yr old, a 4 yr old and a 2 yr old, in my mind, is a recipe for disaster.

As for discipline, I'm not sure I have any advice because I'd just be too







: to think straight and I'd be more leaning toward the throttling you mentioned. This isn't anything that can be apologized for and amended and all back to normal. A 4 year old's jaw is broken. That cannot be undone. There is a huge possibility of long term emotional trauma in store for that poor little 4 year old. If this had been the 2 year old, from the amount of force it sounds was involved, enough to break a jaw, he very well could have killed the 2 year old.

I think what he needs is full on awareness of the repercussions of his actions. He needs to be an active participant in nurturing his poor little cousin through his recovery. He needs to 'feel' the experience fully before he is gonna grasp the effect of his irresponsible actions and choices._ETA: I had not yet read any of the responses when I replied, but this 
_
Quote:



Originally Posted by *GuildJenn*


I would definitely, if the other parents are agreed, put your son in charge of entertaining this poor 4 year old for the next couple of weeks. He can buy him games or toys out of his allowance and spend time amusing and nursing him, holding the straw, whatever. (It sounds like he'll need to be supervised.) I wouldn't frame that as punishment but as "what we do when we cause harm to someone, even inadvertently.")


is a lot of what I was trying to convey with this paragraph.

He simply cannot be unsupervised with young children. He just cannot! No matter what diagnoses someone may want to come up with to explain/excuse this behavior, I don't believe it's excusable. I simply wouldn't trust him around little children for a very, very, very long time. As for discipline, again, I'm just so angry, it's hard for me to think straight. I am all for gentle discipline, but in this case, I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around this.

_ETA: and 
_
Quote:



Originally Posted by *GuildJenn*


I also think that you might need to take some share in the responsibility here. You knew he was out of control and yet all the kids were in the basement alone. That was a mistake too - he should have been removed from the situation to calm down, or been supervised. I think you can take a lead here by taking his behaviour seriously early when he is getting too rambunctious and not just reminding him, but stepping in to show your time and attention and focus.


 I agree with this.

After reading through the thread, I wanted to add some thoughts:
Tankgirl expressed concern over her son's lack of empathy is extremely concerning for me. Without empathy or compassion, what is there?

Quote:



Originally Posted by *sunnmama*


OP, I'd take my dc every day to visit the child he injured, to offer some sort of care/company/comfort each day. 3 weeks is a LONG time for a 4 yo to be on a liquid diet (and, I'm assuming, activity restrictions and some pain). It is also a LONG time for an 11 yo to check in with someone every day. It might make an impact, say, on day 18 when he feels like moving on but the cousin is



Quote:



Originally Posted by *sunnmama*


_still recovering from this accident. _


_

I agree. He must stay involved in his cousin's recovery all the way through to the end. It may take an extended period of care for him to start to feel any empathy. But then again, if he can't feel empathy naturally, I don't know how it can be taught.

_
Quote:



Originally Posted by *JL83*


If this 11yo should not be held accountable as if he were neurotypical, then he should not be left alone as if he were neurotypical. It can't be both ways.


Yes, I agree.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

The most important thing you can do at this point is to never allow him to be in such a situation again unsupervised.

While I understand what pps are getting at in endorsing the idea that the 11yo should make smoothies and entertain his cousin as he recovers, I would only bring this up with extreme tentativeness with the little boy's parents. If I were that child's mother, I don't think I would want to see your son again for a very long time. And I would have a very difficult time forgiving you, OP, for allowing this situation to go on long enough that my child was injured.

I'm not saying this to make you feel bad, OP; I can tell you already do. I'm just saying that you might want to be really careful how you bring up the idea of your son helping his cousin out, if that's what you decide to do.


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## HarperRose (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JL83* 
If this 11yo should not be held accountable as if he were neurotypical, then he should not be left alone as if he were neurotypical. It can't be both ways.

Ah, but he CAN be left alone to a degree. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you don't have a kid w/ SN. I have 2 and have SN myself. They CAN be left alone. The parents check in periodically, as it sounds like the OP was doing.

I can leave my kids alone for periods of time and check on them. I don't have to be sitting there watching their every move.

And he SHOULD be held accountable *to a degree*. Just not in the same way as a neuro-typical 11 yr old, one who has control over his actions.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TCMoulton* 
By the OP's own words her 11 year old son is a highly trained junior black belt - that means that his kick is much more powerful than the average 11 year old. I personally believe that because of this, coupled with his possible developmental issues that may affect his impulses and behavior issues that he whould never be left unattended with other children, especially ones younger than him. Honestly, the OP is lucky that he just broke his jaw as I would assume a junior black belt has the power and skill to seriously injure a small child.

But he wasn't practicing or sparring w/ his 4 yr old cousin. You never spar w/ someone so much littler than you and without proper training. He tripped or cartwheeled. He wasn't showing off or sparring..


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

Not being there, I can see it going down in a few ways.

Neuro-divergent kid without great self-management skills left with inadequate supervision harms another child unwillfully. If he's not able to self-manage, then he needs greater supervision in future.

Kid is playing with cousins, has an accident that is completely unrelated to his neurodivergence or martial arts skills - two kids playing and bad contact occurs by accident. Needs to make amends because it's the right thing to do. But heck, how many near misses happen _all the time_ when kids play together?

I do think there's value in coaching him in his responsibilities as the oldest and in possession of superior physical skills.

OP, I hope you're hanging in there as I'm sure it's all very mortifying and confusing IRL and this thread ain't the gentlest when it's discussing your kid.









I think a pp is very wise to suggest checking in with cousin's parents as to what works for them.


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KweenKrunch* 
I find there to be a very vast maturity gap between 4-year-olds and 11-year-olds.

And we RU, so my kids don't follow the "school model" of socialization









Like the OP mentioned, these are cousins, ranging in age from 2 to 11yrs- how did you arrive at the conclusion that he has a "developmental delay" just from the fact that he was interacting/playing with his visiting cousins?!


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

If he has a black belt in martial arts of any sort that indicates a level of self-control that should easily transfer to the home, especially after several warnings. I think you should talk to him about how his actions and out of control behavior have seriously injured a small helpless child and remove him from martial arts until he shows he has a level of maturity that allows him to keep his martial arts behaviors at the martial arts class. I also think that you need to get him outside help. Behavior this wild just isn't normal for a child this age. I think you should ask your pediatrician for a really good referal to someone who can help figure out what is going on to make your son like this and until you know you shouldn't let him around other kids.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KweenKrunch* 
I find there to be a very vast maturity gap between 4-year-olds and 11-year-olds.

I agree.

That doesn't mean they can't have fun playing together....esp family members.

Heck, I have fun playing with my 2 yo, lol, and we have a HUGE maturity gap


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KweenKrunch* 
I have to say I agree. And I'm wondering if there isn't something else going on... Most 11-year-olds aren't that interested in playing with older toddlers. I know I have a hard time convincing my 6.5-year-old to play with my nephew, who is 4. If your son, at 11, is playing with toddlers, you might want to consider that he has a developmental delay.


my 13. 9 and 6 year old play with each other all time as well as all the other kids in the neighborhood (2-14). Especially if there is no one else to play with suach as when we were at a homeschool meeting or family gathering. I don't think the fact that he was amusing his cousins is at all strange. the fact that he was the super cool big kid probably fed into the craziness.

as for what to do. I think the natrual consequence would be closer super vision. he may want to get up and play but the consequences of his carelessness is that he has to stay where you can see him so that you can be careful for him until he learns how to do it himself. does that make sense? Either just go into it with that expectation (from now on you have to stay near me) or give him the chance to behave and remain calm but the first time he starts getting wound up and careless bring him in close to you.

I would also have him spend some time with his cousin while he is recovering playing games, buying him a little gift here and there (something little treat he can swallow through a wired jaw). if the mom is up for it.

I think you really really need to focus on how serious this is. far bigger than being careless is that he does not seem to really care how much he has hurt someone. Honestly I think you need to seek professional help for this. My friends son was like this. He would do all kinds of things and completely lack empathy. all he could focus on is that he had to do blah blah blah. if she had gotten out of the way she would not have gotten hurt. He is now on medication for ADHD and I think is doing much better.

Medication - what about a trail run. say 6 months or so to see if the benefits outweigh the risks. it sounds like his life might be better on it. its not right for everyone but it really does help when it is really needed.


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## Zenful (Jun 27, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kismet_fw* 
They may have more suggestions for you, since they work with so many children (or as my Sifu does, children and adults) that they have to teach self control alot more than parents do.

Also, as instructors, they can guide him in ways that aren't just "more parental yelling" that will get tuned out, and they will appreciate knowing. Any reputable instructor will be very clear what they think of this episode, and no instructor wants a reputation for out-of-control students.

This is basically what I was going to say, too. My DP has a second degree black belt and he used to teach little kids tae kwon do as well...self-control is very big in martial arts. If you're unable to be present in your body and your surroundings then anything you learn is a potential hazard for yourself and others (case in point with your son). They really need to know about this...I'm sure this will help them understand what he needs to focus on in order to be safe and secure in his body.


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

You will get more BTDT advice in the Special Needs forum.









If you can get OT from an autism diagnosis, seek one out. Your son needs it. If that's not an option, put together your own sensory room and routine. Through trial and error, figure out the best ways to calm him down when he gets out of control. For my son, the trampoline just gets him wound up. Being enclosed and spun (in a hammock or similar style seat) calms him down. Make sure his weighted blanket is weighted enough. Consider a weighted lap pad for use during the day (we've used ours for sitting at the computer, the table, and in the car.) You may find cheap things you can use for a sensory set-up at Ikea. You might also get a cheapo beanbag chair, gymnastics mat, wrist and ankle weights, and so on. We recently discovered that working out with barbells really helps my son calm down. He also needs to sometimes be removed to his room or another quiet space where he can regain control. Being around other kids - especially more than one other kid at a time - really overwhelms him. He has fun, but loses control and can't regain it without help. I understand that you really need time to socialize with others and get a break from parenting. I really get that. But, you need to attend to your son's needs first. Find other ways to socialize that don't set him up for hyperactivity and, as a result, failure.


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## HarperRose (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lotusdebi* 
You will get more BTDT advice in the Special Needs forum.









If you can get OT from an autism diagnosis, seek one out. Your son needs it. If that's not an option, put together your own sensory room and routine. Through trial and error, figure out the best ways to calm him down when he gets out of control. For my son, the trampoline just gets him wound up. Being enclosed and spun (in a hammock or similar style seat) calms him down. Make sure his weighted blanket is weighted enough. Consider a weighted lap pad for use during the day (we've used ours for sitting at the computer, the table, and in the car.) You may find cheap things you can use for a sensory set-up at Ikea. You might also get a cheapo beanbag chair, gymnastics mat, wrist and ankle weights, and so on. We recently discovered that working out with barbells really helps my son calm down. He also needs to sometimes be removed to his room or another quiet space where he can regain control. Being around other kids - especially more than one other kid at a time - really overwhelms him. He has fun, but loses control and can't regain it without help. I understand that you really need time to socialize with others and get a break from parenting. I really get that. But, you need to attend to your son's needs first. Find other ways to socialize that don't set him up for hyperactivity and, as a result, failure.


Yes, great advice, Debi.


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## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

If the child has adhd, or sensory issues, and isn't receiving therapy or treatment, either because the parents can't find it, or don't choose it, then clearly another plan needs to be made. It really isn't a stretch to figure out that an active, impulsive 11 y/o and much younger children aren't a great safety match. The onus falls to the parents to supervise constantly. I mean, he broke his cousin's jaw. It could have been far worse-a head injury/brain injury to a young child could have life altering implications. As it is, surgery for the other child will require anesthesia, pain meds, etc. That's really, really huge. I would consider this as a wake up call. Your ds and other kids need to have supervision to ensure everyone's safety.

MY dd was almost very seriously injured by an older child, who for other reasons, has impulse issues, and lacks capacity to fully comprehend his strength. The kids were not supposed to be playing together, but the other mom allowed it without our OK. The consequences to my child were frightening-she ended up scared, bruised, and sore, but again, it could have been worse. The other parents were really in denial about the need for their child to be supervised, and remain so. We, unfortunately, don't really socialize anymore because the potential for harm is too great. We can supervise our kids, but we can't always supervise other people's kids.


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## macro_grp02 (Aug 20, 2009)

Has he apologized already? I'm sure he already did. Try to let him be with the kid as much as possible so that he'll really understand. Other than that, I'm not really sure what I would do if I was in your situation. Sorry


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HarperRose* 
But he wasn't practicing or sparring w/ his 4 yr old cousin. You never spar w/ someone so much littler than you and without proper training. He tripped or cartwheeled. He wasn't showing off or sparring..


Neither I nor anyone else on this thread has ever suggested that he was practicing or sparring with his cousin. My point was that because of his advanced skill level in a martial art he needs to be made aware of his own strength and his capacity to seriously injure a small child. Even if the kick was accidental it has the potential to be seriously damaging due to his skill level.

Regardless, it is obvious that he should not be left unsupervised with other children for the forseeable future.


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## DianeMarie (Jul 7, 2009)

I have to say that I agree with moondiapers and lilyka and sleet76---although nobody wants to put their child on medications, if he is THAT out of control, where he is hurting other children, something needs to be done about that. If he does not respond to your corrections, then you need to move to the next step which is more aggressive attention and treatment of this out-of-control behavior. Stimulant medications in REAL ADHD situations CHANGES A CHILD'S LIFE. It appears that just having him blow off his energy at gymnastics isn't enough, and if OT is not available and you can't pay for it out of your own pocket, then something else needs to be done. This is not about breaking a lamp or vase or something that is material in your house, and this is not even a "minor" injury---he broke a 4 year old child's jaw. That is a major injury. And, you say that you feel that you should have been able to control his actions by now---well, since he is 11 years old and you haven't been able to do that to this point, continuing with the same "treatment" to attempt to get different results is the definition of insanity. Now, you must do something else. Plus, he obviously lied to you about how it happened, so he obviously knows he wasn't supposed to be doing what he was doing---and he was duly warned about his behavior. Lying about how it happened means that he really doesn't much care that because of HIS ACTIONS, he seriously injured another child. And, thank God this wasn't worse than a broken jaw, because it could have been a major head injury, which YOU would have had to live with forever, because as you describe him, he is not very caring or feeling or remorseful about things. By your descriptions of him, I would tend to lean more toward an ADHD diagnosis than an autism or Asperger's diagnosis. ADHD kids don't have empathy either and they just move on to the next thing they're doing rather than thinking about what they just did. Instead of him acknowledging what he did and that his out-of-control behavior caused a serious injury in his cousin, he'd rather lie about how it happened and not accept responsibility for it instead of being deeply sorry and remorseful about it.

In addition to seeking out help for this obvious behavioral problem, instead of him making smoothies and getting the other child a "treat", perhaps he should be made to "sit out" the same amount of time that the child who got hurt has to be home and eat liquid foods and stay in the house, etc., for the consequence to correlate with the outcome of his own behavior. Perhaps this penalty will teach him to be more mindful and careful of his behavior and actions, and exactly how serious and severe the result of his crazy behavior caused. I don't think, even if he did not have a behavioral problem, that an 11-year old can really appreciate the result of something if it didn't happen to them, especially soomething as bad as this. Having to "suffer" (and I hate using that word) along with that other child, for the same period of time, may be a more effective lesson than anything else. Of course, he won't experience the pain that this child is feeling---but, maybe he should be required to be around him to "experience" his pain, to try to demonstrate that his behavior was a DIRECT CAUSE of the pain. Instead of allowing him "quiet games", have him spend that time with his nephew (if his parents will let him) and doing "quiet" things with his nephew.

Instead of feeling like locking him in his room and letting out when he's 25 and can act properly, seriously consider ADHD meds. A lot of parents are totally against this, but when your child has demonstrated that he is a physical harm to others just by playing with them, you have to do something----or else, it will get to the point where nobody wants to play with him!! As it is, I am sure your nephew will now be frightened of him, if not the rest of the kids who were there, and may be frightened of physical play altogether and it could be a life-long thing. And, one thing that you said that struck me is that if he kicked your 2-year old in the head, it would have been much worse. Well---I am sure that for the 4-year old's parents, having to deal with such a young child with a wired jaw for several weeks is going to be bad enough for them: Having a wired jaw is tough as an adult, imagine how it is going to be for a 4-year old and his parents? I just hope that having a jaw fractured and wired shut at 4 years old doesn't cause a problem with the bone development of the child's jaw and teeth.

What I DON'T think should happen is for him to go on as if nothing happened. Just by you explaining things to him are going to mean nothing. Him making a card means nothing. Making smoothies means nothing. Letting him carry on with his own life and activities, I think, is an insult to your nephew and his parents. Obviously, since he doesn't want to spend any of his own money on a get-well present for your nephew, there isn't much remorse there and he does not appreciate the seriousness of the injury---and just by you "explaining" it to him goes in one ear and out the other. SERIOUSLY---consider the ADHD meds to treat the problem of his behavior, but also consider his consequences in this scenario, and perhaps consider how you'd feel if another kid broke your child's jaw at 4 years old because of behavioral problems that the parents were not serious enough in addressing and treating. And then, take that information and think about how your nephew's parents are feeling right about now.

The meds may change his life, and change yours as well.


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## tankgirl73 (Jun 10, 2007)

Okay here. I'm taking all this in before I respond more fully, and believe me I do appreciate all the comments, even those I disagree with. The more food for thought from all sides, the more likely I am to come to the right conclusion.

But I just wanted to take a 'time out' right now to make one thing clear, because it keeps coming up in the comments. I mentioned it before but it seems a lot of folks don't fully read all the posts.

My nephew did not end up needing surgery. He does not have his jaw wired shut. It was a minor hairline fracture and due to his age the doctors felt it was best to let it heal on its own. He's on a liquid diet for 3 weeks and obviously can't run around and is in pain, but there was no surgery, no wired jaw, no metal plates, etc.

This does not change my son's role in all this, of course. But I needed to make that clear.

And we have come around to believing that my son tripped, it was not a cartwheel. The 'suspicious' parts of his story that made me suspect he was lying have since been corroborated by facts. In all likelihood, he exaggerated his fall -- something he often does -- which was still a dangerous action with young children nearby. But not nearly the same as a deliberate cartwheel.

It was an accident of carelessness and thoughtlessness, but not to THAT degree of negligence. And while he is still trying to dodge certain aspects of the responsibility, he did not in fact lie about the basic facts.

His life is currently NOT going on "as usual". We are still weighing the options as to exactly how far things will go and in what direction. But he is certainly not getting off scot-free and hopefully there won't be any more comments implying that I'm just giving him a stern look and a pat on the head then sending him on his way.

We are taking this very seriously. And we have always taken his behaviours very seriously. He is not out of control all the time. As we have made certain changes, his out of control periods have diminished like 95%. The remaining 5% is certainly exasperating but we had no reason to suspect he was actually DANGEROUS. Hindsight is 20/20 of course, but many posters seem to be inferring that he was a screaming flailing maniac _all the time_, which just is not the case.

We do not currently have a pediatrician or even a family doctor. We just moved here a year ago and there are waiting lists miles long. I did get a referal from a local autism organization for a local specialist in autistic and attention disorders. We have not yet contacted him, because shortly after I got the information, we saw a huge and drastic change for the better in my son, so we saw no need.

We are certainly going to re-consider this and evaluate going to this doctor again. I do know that meds are the best course of action in certain situations. I posted a link to my blog post where I contemplated this very fact. If you didn't read it, then please don't lecture me on the value of meds. My husband (DS's stepfather) has chronic depression and anxiety and has been on meds and is currently managing without meds. We know the ups and the downs of both medicating and not medicating for 'brain wiring' conditions. He would not be alive today if he had not gone on meds when he needed them.

That is all for now. I probably sound a bit frustrated, but I recognize that it's primarily due to the limitations of this type of forum discussion... nobody else has the complete picture. I do still appreciate all the comments, even those I completely disagree with.


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## faerierose (Jul 9, 2006)

My oldest ds is 9 and sounds alot like your ds. I have found that the most effective way to help him when he gets so rambunctious that things are getting dangerous is to physically get his attention by tapping his shoulder or something similar and tell him exactly what I see that is causing me concern.
General statements like "calm down" "settle down" and such have very little effect on my ds. He just doesn't see all the tiny things that I see and take for granted so I go through them with him. So it will go something like "Stop...(wait for full attention) look around, your brothers are chasing you, there are toys on the floor, these chairs are in the walkway, it is so loud I can't tell if anyone is upset or hurt...ect" Usually by this time we've been talking enough for him to calm down a little more. Then I tell him what I'm worried might happen, "your brother could fall on the toys or trip on the chairs ect..." Then either him or I make suggestions on a safer way or place to play. After all that I make sure things don't go from 0 to 60 in 2.5 again and usually things calm down.
Since I have been doing this he has been more able to notice this stuff. I have seen him pick stuff up out of the way before he lets his brother chase him or stop and warn his brother or sister about something he would not have noticed 6 months ago.
This has been a big focus in my house because I have a combo of 2 very active and careless older dc (my 7 year old dd as well as ds1) and a 4 year old with huge balance problems. He is more likely to get knocked over or trip while running.
Anyway, that's what has been helping here, HTH.


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## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

OP, have you thought about posing your questions over in the Special Needs forum? You might get a helpful perspective there, and maybe some BTDT responses.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tankgirl73* 
I'm going to respectfully disagree with this one. I believe that it's TRUE that most 11yo's don't want to play with 4yo's, but I don't think that it's necessarily NORMAL. I think it's _largely_ a product of our age-segregated school system.

Same here.

My kids will play with anyone, of any age. My 14yo's BFF is three years older than him. My 17yo will happily play video games with the 12yo next door. When we go to the beach or park with our friends, they play with my friends' younger children/grandchildren.

And their younger cousins have always been a joy to them.


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## AngeliqueW (Jan 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tankgirl73* 
Okay here. I'm taking all this in before I respond more fully, and believe me I do appreciate all the comments, even those I disagree with. The more food for thought from all sides, the more likely I am to come to the right conclusion.

You're on the right track. You certainly don't need to be lectured at.
Here's a virtual hug.







Hang in there mama.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

One of the things I've learned relatively recently about emotional development in kids with sensory issues and ADHD (and other disorders where executive functioning might be compromised) is that these kids rely on adults for co-regulation long past the time when the typical child is able to do this on their own.

What this means in this particular situation, I think, is that perhaps you need to develop some alternative strategies for helping him calm down. It's very clear from the situation you've described that he was not capable of bringing it down a notch when you asked him to. I think you need to reframe this in your mind from "he's being careless" to "he can't do this alone" to better be able to deal with the siutation.

I would also impose a limit on the number of times I would verbally tell him to calm down before intervening. One warning, and then the break to do whatever he needs to calm himself and regain focus (with your help, if necessary). Maybe 2 warnings and then a break?

I think it's important not to present this as punishment, but as rather "This situation is really winding you up -- let's go do our yoga or jump on the trampoline for 10 minutes to wind down a bit."

Also, since it sounds like your son is a very kinesthetic learner, I'm thinking that the most effective tool for teaching him might be to physically involve him in things to help his cousin. Make smoothies. Make a lap desk for him to do quiet activities on. Help build legos. Read him books on tape to entertain him. Maybe he can do one thing a day for the next week or two. I think they learn more by doing than by spending, at almost any age.

Finally, 2 book recomendations:
Sensational Kids - it's got some nice action plans for how to help sensory kids, and it acknowledges that most insurance won't cover OT.

The Challenging Child - I love this book because it talks about connection first, and then how to deal with behavior.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beanma* 
I also agree that his avoidance can be a coping mechanism. My dd1 is the queen of avoidance. She will avoid avoid avoid unless I call her on it directly. She does own up to issues with her sister, but will deny being feverish, for example, in hopes that it will just go away if she doesn't talk about it. She can avoid/deny about other things, too, so that's why I would have the big talk about empathisizing with the injured party.

Our ds too - he has sensory issues, and some anxiety, and he really doesn't like acknowledging that he's wrong. It's a BAD combo for demonstrating empathy. He's a kid where we've had to do deliberate scripting for basic manners. I've had to specifically say "If you don't say you're sorry and try to make amends, people will think that you WANTED to hurt them." "I know it was an accident, but you still need to help make amends. It shows people that you care about them."

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beanma* 
I'm reluctantly, but firmly in the make 'em say sorry camp (mainly because my dd1 would not pick it up on her own if I didn't enforce it-dd2, sure, but dd1 needs prompting) and that's the angle I would approach this from. You did something really bad even though you didn't mean to and we've got to take responibility for it. When you do something wrong there's three things we need to do:
1) Let the other person/people involved know we're really, really sorry.
2) Make amends (fix the broken window, buy a new toy, get a cold pack for a bruise, smoothies for a broken jaw).
3) Make sure it doesn't happen in the future by having a specific plan in place.
hth

This is great advice. We do the first 2 things, but I like the addition of the 3rd. Ds has great strengths in 'future plans' kind of thinking, and weak skills in 'making amends' so maybe it'll help him feel better.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KweenKrunch* 
Right... But the pre-teens aren't usually breaking the jaws of the little ones. If anything, they are acting in a supervisory capacity. At 11, I was already babysitting.

Whoa there... I was babysitting at 11 too, but I know a lot of nice, friendly 11 year olds who I wouldn't trust to walk a dog, let alone babysit. They're not bad kids, just not ready for responsibility. The range of typical behavior for 11 year olds can be pretty big. It's what gives 6th grade teachers grey hair. The difference between a slightly immature 11 year old boy and a mature 11 year old girl is HUGE. HUGE.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 

Our ds too - he has sensory issues, and some anxiety, and he really doesn't like acknowledging that he's wrong. It's a BAD combo for demonstrating empathy. He's a kid where we've had to do deliberate scripting for basic manners. I've had to specifically say "If you don't say you're sorry and try to make amends, people will think that you WANTED to hurt them." "I know it was an accident, but you still need to help make amends. It shows people that you care about them."


I wonder about the effectiveness of this technique. It is what has been used on my husband's 12 year old son who also lacks empathy. He has learned and been trained by his mom and counselors how to behave in a way that makes people think he gives a damn, but he really doesn't. In his counselors words, he hasn't really improved over the past couple years, he's just gotten sneakier about it. He is essentially being taught how to behave, and how to manipulate a social situation to get the results he wants, but has no internal empathy or compassion. It's all just socially acceptable actions, but nothing real under the surface. I am in no way implying this is the case for tankgirl's son, so please don't interpret it that way. I have simply been seeing my husband's son throughout this thread, and reading advice given to consider how those things might help him.

I just don't think the outward appearances are really all that important. As I stated earlier, if there isn't empathy or compassion, what is there? And I certainly have no idea how to teach empathy to someone who doesn't have it naturally. No amount of behavior modification has changed the internal motivations or emotions of my husband's son.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
I wonder about the effectiveness of this technique. It is what has been used on my husband's 12 year old son who also lacks empathy. He has learned and been trained by his mom and counselors how to behave in a way that makes people think he gives a damn, but he really doesn't.

Well, our ds HAS empathy, but sucks at displaying it. And it sounds like the OP's son WAS feeling bad.

I think you need to distinguish kids who have real issues with empathy/taking another person's perspective and kids who can do it, but prefer to deal with emotionally charged situations with avoidance. The former need a lot more more than scripting. The latter need to be taught that expressing sympathy and remorse can help.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
Well, our ds HAS empathy, but sucks at displaying it.

You misunderstand and have it backwards. My husband's son does not experience empathy, but has learned how to pretend he does. Most times he doesn't bother pretending, either.


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## bebebradford (Apr 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
You misunderstand and have it backwards. My husband's son does not experience empathy, but has learned how to pretend he does. Most times he doesn't bother pretending, either.


Wow, from that post I feel like you're frustrated with him. I was a rough kid for my mom around that age.. actually up until I was around 20! EEK.
Sometimes children around his age are too focused on "I want this", my way or nothing, etc. You aren't really inside him.. I sure he's felt empathy sometime in his life.. unless he is a sociopath. If that's the case, hopefully he can get better with treatment. Sometimes it just takes maturity. Just don't give up on him.. that's the WORST thing to do for him.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bebebradford* 
Wow, from that post I feel like you're frustrated with him. I was a rough kid for my mom around that age.. actually up until I was around 20! EEK.
Sometimes children around his age are too focused on "I want this", my way or nothing, etc. You aren't really inside him.. I sure he's felt empathy sometime in his life.. unless he is a sociopath. If that's the case, hopefully he can get better with treatment. Sometimes it just takes maturity. Just don't give up on him.. that's the WORST thing to do for him.

Yes, it is frustrating when his lack of empathy endangers my daughters' safety on a regular basis. He has been in counseling for this problem for nearly four years now. Even the counselor has not seen any improvement. I do wonder about him being sociopathic, I just never said/typed that out loud before. I do hope he'll get better. Only time will tell. Sorry OP for hijacking your thread, so I'm not gonna mention him again here.


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## Jennifer Z (Sep 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moondiapers* 
Maybe he'll qualify for help now that something big has happened? Might be worth looking into.

I'd also supervise him very closely from now on. It's ovious that his size is an issue now when playing with his cousins.

That is my first thought too. It really does sound like this goes beyond a discipline issue. I would try and get a behavioral psychologist who can help you and him learn to manage impulses better and consider medication either with, or after the behavioral psych's recommendatons. I know stuff is overprescribed, but there is a genuine need for it for kids who's brains are wired differently.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

I only read the first page, so it could be this was already suggested... Could you ask his gymnastics coach to speak with him (in light of the positive results he's seen) about how gymnastics-type activities are likely best kept to the gym? He may also be able to suggest some (safer) activities for your son to engage in when he gets over-excited and needs to get the energy out.

Accidents happen. I wouldn't beat yourselves or him up over it, but hopefully y'all can find a way to channel the energy so you don't have to worry about someone else getting hurt.

Good luck.


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## tankgirl73 (Jun 10, 2007)

Time for another update, I guess.

The question of trip vs cartwheel has been resolved. He did trip, but he got overly dramatic and silly and exaggerated the fall. This is something he does regularly, makes a big crazy show about a little stumble, he thinks he's entertaining us and that it's funny. We don't think it's funny. He does it anyway, because HE thinks it's funny.

What he did this time, was catch himself with his hands, use them as a plant, and kicked his feet behind him. To an observer, it would look like the start of a cartwheel. But it was really even more powerful than getting kicked by a cartwheel, because it really was a _kick_.

So really, now that I've thought about it, it's even _worse_ than deliberately doing a cartwheel knowing a young child was too nearby.

And unfortunately, it has nothing to do with keeping "gymnastics-type activities" at the gym, or not doing martial arts, because it was neither of those. It was pure goofiness. Done at a completely inappropriate and dangerous time.

So it's still a complete lack of impulse control, lack of recognition of danger, etc etc, which would be expected of a normal 11-year-old when playing near smaller children. So, yes, "accidents happen", and if it was just a weird, freak accident, we wouldn't be having this thread. It was an accident that shouldn't have happened. It's like saying someone had a car accident when driving 100mph down a city street. It was "just an accident" but they shouldn't have been driving 100mph in the first place!

In hindsight, we have all agreed that the kids' running around should have been stopped earlier. We were naive. I think we all had a bit of that "it can't happen to us" foggy vision. The kids have gone crazy many, many times before and there was never anything more than minor bumps and bruises common in childhood. And we believe in the "free range childhood" ideas. Kids running around, laughing, giggling, having a great time together... sounds great, right? There's no doubt that we SHOULD HAVE known better, as intelligent adults... in hindsight. At the moment, we really thought that a BAD accident like this was out of the question.

He and I have had some very good, productive talks since then. And some good outcomes and results. And some really, really bad days, with lots of yelling and frustrations and him seeming to understand one minute and be completely 'reverted' the next minute.

He has made a craft as a gift, and a nice card, and we will hopefully go visit tomorrow and have him entertain his cousin -- who, by the way, bears him no ill will, and actually said that he was sorry he'd hurt my son's foot. Now there's some empathy my son could learn from. *sigh*

In the meantime, I've made the initial contact with the child psychologist I was previously referred to by a local autism connections organization. I don't know how long it might be before we can get an evaluation, but the process is started at least.

He absolutely is not allowed unsupervised with other kids, and he's had a whole bunch of fun activities he was looking forward to, suspended. Including a friend coming over for a sleepover before he goes back to school next week... not going to happen.

I have seen that he does feel very, very bad about this. But he does try to hide it, even from himself, and I think he forgets very quickly. He is still too easy distracted back into silly fun craziness, without 'sober second thought' about past consequences. So even though I know he has the best of intentions, he simply does not have the control. This is one of the signs of ADHD, of course.

I had been hopeful that he would 'grow out' of the worst of it, especially with better management at home. Much of ADHD 'treatment' is all about management, anyway. And he HAS gotten better. As he's gotten older, the explosive tantrums have all but disappeared, and he CAN focus on something he enjoys, and the difference in his gymnastics training is really starting to happen.

But obviously, it hasn't been ENOUGH change just from what I'm able to provide for him. The time has come where I need more help, in order to help him. Me constantly screaming at him and bursting into tears over the hopelessness of it all, is helping none of us.

And no worries about thread hijacking. It was still on-topic about dealing with exceptional kids and I found it interesting.


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## bebebradford (Apr 4, 2008)

Puritylake.. I understand.







I hope it gets better. That's a tough situation.

Tankgirl.. Reading your update seriously made me tear up. From what little I've read.. I can tell your son means no harm.He honestly has no impulse control. It seems from what little info I see is that he is typical adhd.. which in itself is NOT a horrible thing. We are all wired differently. My brother had a really hard time with it until his late teens. Now he's such a good guy, and so focused. I'm sure your little man will be JUST fine. And please, don't be afraid to try medicines .. I know it's better to go natural, but sometimes medicine can REALLY make a dramatic difference. I'm horribly bipolar with anxiety issues, and medicine has really saved my life. Anyways, sorry for going on and on! You are a wonderful momma, and he will be just fine!


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

It is interesting how ADHD, asperger's and autism have all been mentioned here. My husband's son was originally diagnosed with PTSD but that made absolutely no sense to anyone (he was only 8 years old hen he got that diagnosis). A different counselor diagnosed him with ADHD and put him on medication. It didn't help. The medication was changed, and changed again. He has most recently been diagnosed with temporary bipolar which then changed to a diagnosis of emotional bipolar. He is still on quite the slew of medications. He takes four different pills, some one at a time, twice a day, some two pills twice a day. It's quite confusing and stressful making sure he even remembers to take them and puts them away in his locked room to ensure my daughters don't get ahold of them. I really have no idea what drugs he's on now, just the color, size and shape of the pills. My husband is more of the mindset that the problem is not medical at all and he doesn't think these years of counseling have done anything to help his son. He thinks the counseling is enabling his behavior by saying there is something inherently wrong with him instead of accepting he's just a normal kid with lack of discipline issues at his mother's house. Everyone seems to have a different take on it.


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## Noelle C. (Sep 3, 2009)

The BIG red flag here is his lack of any remorse and his quickness to shun responsibility. Accident or not, he's responsible. We don't let drunk drivers who crash and hurt people off the hook, do we? Even when they feel some remorse?

Your son shouldn't be off the hook. There needs to be some sort of consequence for him, whether it's him being allowed to do no more than his cousin can while the child is healing (whatever diet the child is on, you son goes on to, for instance, so he can see what the child has to do as a result of him not being careful), or being in charge of entertaining the child. He seems to lack empathy, and that is VERY concerning.

Medical and psychiatric interventions are often turned to right away as the quick fixes, which gives them a bad reputation for the times when they are truly needed. But I'm going to strongly suggest that he have an evaluation. If he does indeed have something like Aspergers of falls somewhere else along the autism spectrum (some people with these conditions function at a genius level, but just have that little something that's not working right, such as the inability to notice social cues or have remorse/guilt/empathy), then this will help you in learning the best way to discipline him when he misbehaves in the future (which he will - he's still a kid), as well as help you get the support you need for raising your child, perhaps a support group of other parents in your area dealing with the same issues who can share what's worked and hasn't worked for them.

Now that you know he can be a danger to others, you also have the responsibility of preventing him from causing harm to others. There is no free pass when someone's misbehavior, whether a child's or adult's, hurts other people.


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## Noelle C. (Sep 3, 2009)

Ah, now I see the update just a few replies above mine. When the thread hijacking started, off to Reply I went.

It sounds like good steps are being taken, from not just shrugging it off as an accident to seeking an evaluation. Yes, kids do stupid things, but learning some impulse control by this age should be happening already. Kindergarteners can learn to not hit with someone takes a toy away and to be careful. This little boy doesn't sound like he has.

I have a couple friends who have three children with various degrees of Aspergers/autism. With the right help, their children are pleasant little people. One of my friends is even married to a man with Aspergers, so people with these conditions can grow up to be just like anyone else. I never would have guessed her brilliant hubby has Aspergers. Learning appropriate management on his own part has helped tremendously. It was hard for them learning their son has it too, but it's not the end of the world, I promise. And the other friend has two children with it.

Please do your best to emphasize to him that, even though he does bad THINGS, that he is not a bad PERSON. He'd be a bad person by doing something intentionally with the intent too hurt another person, but that's not the case. He lacks control. He still needs to take responsibility, but he's not a bad person. I hope this is being separated for him. Bad actions sometimes don't mean bad person.


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## DianeMarie (Jul 7, 2009)

Tankgirl--I had to come back and read what has happened since I last posted. And I also read your updated posts, too.

In thinking about this situation again, I think that instead of treating this in a punitive way, it should be the defining moment for you and your son and the fact that he needs more than what he is currently getting for his impulse control and hyperactivity. You expressed your frustration as well, and it seems that this has been going on for a long time.

I can see that you are a bit hesitant with the ADHD medications. The one thing I can say is that medications are not permanent---if he tries them out and in a couple of months they are not helping, you can stop them. HOWEVER---they may very well work! I truly believe it is worth a try---if they do work, it will be the first step to having him learn better, act better, have more impulse control, and to THINK about what he is doing before he does it.

I realize that I was a bit harsh at first, and still do believe that a broken jaw is not a laughing matter. But I think I'd look at this as the catalyst to seek actual TREATMENT for ADHD, and not hem and haw about finding him a doctor or think that OT will completely solve the problem---if a child has ADHD, to simply comply with the OT program, it is much better to have them in a mindset to do it (which ADHD meds do) rather than trying to have them work with an uncooperative child and "force" it on him when he doesn't want to participate.

Trying to have him feel a certain way or acknowledge certain things is fruitless unless he is in a mindset to understand it---and with an ADHD child, without medication they are unable to understand a lot of things. Teaching a receptive child is a lot easier than trying to teach a child whose mind is unable to be penetrated.

I hope things are better with you and with him. I hope that everything works out.


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