# Son spanked AT PRESCHOOL!



## 2honeysmamma (Jul 21, 2004)

So...as my kids and I were talking about "new bedtime solutions" (see my earlier post today) and it came time for my 3.5 year old ds to say what he thought we should do he said, "well, mama, when I'm a bad boy at school, I get a spanking or a slap on the arm or leg"...which pretty much ended the discussion about bedtime and brought the night to a whole new level. (Say, WHAT??!!! "BAD boy"...SPANK!? SLAP!? WHAAAAAT????)












































I somehow remained calm and gently asked, "what is a "bad boy" at school" and my son says, " when I hided in the secret hiding spot I get a spanking on my bottom"

I ask him about the "slaps" and he says, "sometimes when I don't circle the right words (his speak for numbers) with my pencil" (shows me a slap to my arm and leg)

I ask him if he means a "pat" (not that it matters) and he says, "oh no mama harder, like this (slaps his arm and bottom). It hurt."

I ask him why he hasn't told me this before and he says, "I was naughty and I thought you'd be mad at me"

I am just heartbroken. Now, I am not a perfect parent. I sometimes yell at my kids. I have on rare occasion swatted my son on the bottom (which I am deeply ashamed of, do not believe is right or necessary and apologized profusely for) but I am a loving mom...always striving to stick with gentle approaches...always looking for ways to be a better parent and I would never, never knowingly put my child in harm's way.

We are living in India where punishment, including physical is much more prevalent both in and out of the schools but I chose this small school precisely because they stated they did not use any physical punishment... when I asked them what they did when an active child wasn't cooperating or was doing something like hitting or taking things...they replied...we just sit and talk with them, telling them it isn't nice to hit...etc.

Some of his recent difficulties (hitting, for (surprise, surprise) example)...running away and hiding, yelling in my face which seemed like such a change for him may certainly be related to this. (or may be related to other things...like age and moving around the world) but today when he asked me why he wasn't going to school and I told him that I would never knowlingly send him someplace where he would be hurt...or where they would call him a "bad boy" he replied..."oh mama I just love you".

I feel so bad.

Chandra
expat mama to Grayce (6) and Owen (3)


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## sunnymw (Feb 28, 2007)

OMG.... I'm too shocked to even form a reply...

*hugs* to your LO. I'd be hiding too if I got spanked by a teacher!!


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## ChristianMomOf2 (Jul 30, 2007)

I wish I could give you advice or say something to console you... but on the other side of the globe, I just don't know where to begin.

I'll just send some (((HUGS))) your way mama!

I'm so glad your son told you!!!


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## westcoastma (Jan 10, 2008)

Oh wow, that's horrible. I hope you get things sorted out and find a better place for your child to learn, not get punished for making inevitable mistakes in the process of learning.


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## Peppermint Leaf (Jan 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ChristianMomOf2* 
I wish I could give you advice or say something to console you... but on the other side of the globe, I just don't know where to begin.

I'll just send some (((HUGS))) your way mama!

I'm so glad your son told you!!!

___________


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## SusanElizabeth (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2honeysmamma* 
We are living in India where punishment, including physical is much more prevalent both in and out of the schools but *I chose this small school precisely because they stated they did not use any physical punishment...* when I asked them what they did when an active child wasn't cooperating or was doing something like hitting or taking things...they replied...we just sit and talk with them, telling them it isn't nice to hit...etc.

I would go and speak to them at the school. They stated they did not use any physical punishment? And this is what they're doing? I would be furious and would be tempted to take my child out of that school.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

I cannot even FATHOM a reply. Speechless. And I would not consider removing him, I'd do it. He is being abused. Oh unholy hell...mmmmm...better to just keep it to myself.









I'm so sorry, to him & you!


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

What a blessing that he told you. It is amazing what you find out when you listen to your children with an open heart. What a good mom you are for listening.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

OK, if that's true that's horrible.

But, I have to say, my dd has told me crazy stories like that before that I knew weren't true. Especially at that age. My little sister used to watch her and everytime I came home dd would tell me that my sister had spanked her, locked her in the room, left her at the park, refused to feed her, etc. I think dd was mad at me for leaving her, and was trying out the drama of those things happening. So...I guess I'm saying, are you sure he's not just using his healthy imagination?


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

I'm so happy he told you. How horrible! I would be livid! If you haven't yet, maybe it is time to have the "mommy will love you no matter what and you can tell me anything" discussion. PLEASE say something to the school. They have lied to you. Think of how many other children may be being abused and their parents know nothing about it.


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## yarngoddess (Dec 27, 2006)

and what a good mom for being honest with your child about WHY he isn't going to school. I would be at school talking to the principal, or the equivalant. I would demand an apology and that things will CHANGE NOW. I also would tell them that you aren't comfortable with your child in the class with that teacher (assuming that it is the same teacher)

HUGS, What a great kid you have. He now knows that he can trust you with that kind of information, and I think he will tell you more now. Kids are so fragile. I hope that you get some results and update us. You are not a bad mom, you are a good mom for listening, keeping cool, and talking with your son. Hugs to you both!


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## ShaggyDaddy (Jul 5, 2006)

honestly I would call the police. Assault on a baby is not really something I would let slide by.


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## prettypixels (Apr 13, 2006)

Wow, yikes-o-rama. Good for you for not sending him back and for telling him why!


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Oh...my...goodness. I can't even imagine how you are feeling. Ugh. And your poor ds!
I've spanked my ds before too (knowing that it was idiotic while I was doing it), and I would be pi$$ed beyond all recognition if someone else spanked my ds.
Good for you for not sending him back, at least until you get it all sorted out.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Definitely take it seriously and speak with the school, but it IS possible he is making it up.

Last week, my son wore his boots to school due to the snowy weather. They have cord-type laces which are difficult to keep tied, and because the tops of the boots are way up on his calves he finds them restrictive when he's crawling around on the floor and wants to unlace them partway. Well, when I came to pick him up, one shoelace was completely removed. I asked what happened to it. "Ms. Brenda told me to throw it in the trash can." "She did?! Why?" "Because she was tired of tying my shoe." "DID you throw it in the trash?" "Yes, this one." We couldn't see it in there. Ms. Brenda had gone home, and the evening teacher said he hadn't had a shoelace since she arrived. I told my son he should NOT throw away any item of clothing, even if it's damaged (I asked if the lace had broken, but he said no), because we might be able to fix it. Then we spoke to the school director, who took it quite seriously and called Ms. Brenda at home. She said it was in his backpack and she'd never told him to throw it in the trash! Sure enough, it was in his backpack, tucked into a pocket where I hadn't looked.

That's a far less serious incident than being spanked, but it's an example of how a child can make up a story, or misunderstand something and elaborate from there, and then report it as fact and continue to believe in it even when questioned.

I hope your little boy has not been spanked and you have not been horribly betrayed by the people you trusted to care for him.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SusanElizabeth* 
I would go and speak to them at the school. They stated they did not use any physical punishment? And this is what they're doing? I would be furious and would be tempted to take my child out of that school.

On the contrary, I would be taking my child out of the school and would be tempted to bring them up on charges.

Although, given the stories of kids making stuff up sometimes, I'd first check around with other parents and see if they'd heard any stories.


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## Cheshire (Dec 14, 2004)

Considering the recent behavior changes and the way he told you, I would trust your gut instinct that he is telling you the truth. You know him better than anyone and if you believe him you are probably right.

If I were in your shoes I'd go talk to the school and find out their side of the story. Even if they told me he was making it up, I think I'd still pull him out (because of the other changes you've noticed in his behavior). I'd think they were lying.

Hugs to you both. He will learn a great lesson from this - that when he did tell you that he was being mistreated you took immediate action and protected him. Way to go!


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

Encourage your child to always be open and tell you anything at all he is unhappy about. This is such a tender age.

Please register a formal complaint with the school principal and note that you take serious exception with corporal punishment for children especially one that is as young as yours. Talk to other parents you know with kids there and tell them about this.

Consider moving back since you know your ideas about such punishment are in conflict with the current environment. After all, this is such a critical time in their development. Travel can always come later.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I think you should talk to the director of the school. My daughter was in a school where the director was firmly for GD type of reactions but her teacher manual was written in a really vague way and she had to go back and make the rules for them more concrete because they interpreted what the manual said in the wrong way and were not at all gentle.


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## 2honeysmamma (Jul 21, 2004)

Mamas...thanks so much for your support. It means the world to me...especially since I'm away from my regular, like-minded support network.

I have not returned my son to the school and will not...so that is not an issue. While it is possible that the director of the school knows nothing...that this is just his teacher...etc...it doesn't really matter to me. I cannot send my son someplace I am not 100% confident will treat him in a loving manner. It is true that he is a very high energy boy...but also very funny and loving. If they were having problems with that...they should have discussed it with me. The school year is nearly over here (end of March) as the hot summer is in April/May... I am currently waiting to hear if he got into a really great Montessori school nearby for next year (where I know the director is strongly against corporal punishment and where I've heard only really wonderful things about.) His current school _was_ my back up plan and I was considering a day camp during the summer there...but that has obviously changed. I am already going to be homeschooling my dd for her second grade year so, while I think my son would enjoy/benefit from a few hours of preschool, I am not averse to hs'ing him if I need to.

School was closed yesterday (festival holiday) and the director was absent the day before...I tried phoning her but she may be out of town. I did send a detailed email and I am planning to meet with her next week. All of the things I might automatically do in the U.S. (filing a police report, etc) are more complicated here...the laws are not all the same and the police are generally quite corrupt...it is unlikely to be a very effective thing to do. Physical discipline or a punitive approach in the schools here is not really that uncommon...though it is slowly changing away from that (and is purported to be absent from the international schools). The school is part of a franchise, I believe, so there may be some way for me to report a problem via that route (after I have a chance to speak with the director).

Natensara and EnviroBecca: I know that sometimes kids make things up...and my son will sometimes tell silly stories or tell me something that isn't true... But the context is different...i.e. he is playing...or has done something "naughty" and wishes he hadn't or doensn't want to admit it. Is "possible" that he made up a story...sure, but, the way he talked about this...was just different...and the level of detail about it...consistently retold is also very unusual for him. Add in recent behavior changes...and his clear relief that he has told me. Today, snuggling in bed, he also told me that he has been locked in the bathroom at school for a time out...

Rest assured, though I am absolutely horrified and angry, my son has not seen that part...and we have had several gently probing conversations about it. His school pal, has corroborated (to his own mother) that my son (but not himself) has been spanked for the same reason ("hiding") that my son reports.

Bottom line...I know my son and I completely believe that he is telling the truth. He does keep asking me about why he's not going to school and seems to need to hear me say that I won't knowingly send him somewhere that he will be hurt...and then he wants to cuddle and says, "I just love you so much mommy."

Chandra
expat mama to Grayce (6) and Owen (3)
India


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## 2honeysmamma (Jul 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seawind* 
Consider moving back since you know your ideas about such punishment are in conflict with the current environment. After all, this is such a critical time in their development. Travel can always come later.

Moving back is not really an option for another year and a half...we are here for my dh's job and while there are frustrations and misteps and this particular horror, there are also many things our whole family is loving about being here... Travel is one of them but I would never put it before my kids... however, they are also having great travel experiences and great cultural experiences and great people experiences.

I do appreciate your words..."your ideas about punishment are in conflict with the current environment"... It's both true and false... in *general* Indians are very loving of young children...and my kids have benefited from that part, too.

you can read my blog if you want to know any more about our life here:

http://wherearethefischers.blogspot.com

Thanks,

Chandra
expat mama to Grayce (6) and Owen (3)
India


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## theretohere (Nov 4, 2005)

Just wanted to give you







mama- you did the right thing.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

I'm so sorry that it was true. I hope your little guy will be able to forget all about it.


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShaggyDaddy* 
honestly I would call the police. Assault on a baby is not really something I would let slide by.









:

if thats what they do for getting work wrong - what on earth might they do for any genuinely undesirable behaviour. dont give the school an opportunity for a cover up go right to the authorities.


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

Chandra, sorry for being so presumptuous. And thanks for setting me straight. I will definitely check out your blog...hope you find a super school for your DS soon.


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## fiorio (Aug 30, 2006)

OT- Chandra, did you go to Park Center High School?

By the way, your kids are adorable!


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## sofiabugmom (Sep 23, 2003)

Hi Chandra,

Oh. My. Lord. That. Did. NOT. Happen!

Your poor son! And you too! Good for you for pulling him ...

And no wonder he was acting out at home! I had replied to your post on your "baaaaad night" last week. Your son must be all mixed up, to be treated like that at preschool and have the staff sneak treats to him behind your back. Talk about confusing.

Lots of







's to you and the family as you work through this. And based on your supportive and loving actions for your family, I'm sure you will.

(Off to check a fellow ex-pat's blog now ... )


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## 2honeysmamma (Jul 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seawind* 
Chandra, sorry for being so presumptuous. And thanks for setting me straight. I will definitely check out your blog...hope you find a super school for your DS soon.









don't worry I've had the thought a few times when things are crazy and I'm sitting in my suddenly rather surreal life









Chandra


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## 2honeysmamma (Jul 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fiorio* 
OT- Chandra, did you go to Park Center High School?

By the way, your kids are adorable!


Go to Park Center...so many, many years ago, it's craziness... You?

thanks, I think they're pretty cute, too









chandra


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## 2honeysmamma (Jul 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sofiabugmom* 
Hi Chandra,

And no wonder he was acting out at home! I had replied to your post on your "baaaaad night" last week. Your son must be all mixed up, to be treated like that at preschool and have the staff sneak treats to him behind your back. Talk about confusing.

Lots of







's to you and the family as you work through this. And based on your supportive and loving actions for your family, I'm sure you will.

(Off to check a fellow ex-pat's blog now ... )










Thank you for both your responses...I did see it and haven't had a chance to respond... I do think that alot of his recent acting out is related to both the school discipline problems and the time it has taken us to find our way...and mama being in a downswing. I do belong to the women's expat group here but have had mixed experiences...but I did recently find a great 3 day a week yoga & meditation class right in our community and it is helping me to feel more centered...

I am meeting with ds school director tomorrow... I won't send him back but I want to see what she has to say and if she was unaware (as she hinted on the phone) then really encourage her to make some serious changes with the teacher training and supervision, among other things. We'll see....

Thanks!
Chandra
expat mama to Grayce (6) and Owen (3)
India


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## mavery (Jun 3, 2005)

I'm really sorry this happened to your ds, but I wanted to add or reiterate, I guess, what a powerful experience your response is going to be for your son in his life!

It totally makes sense to me that he is asking the same thing over and over again. The disconnect between the way he gets treated at home and the way he was treated at school must have been hard for him to assimilate, but as a kid he probably naturally assumed that both are "right". And in one go he has learned that:
(a) grownups are not always right, he deserves to be treated well by EVERYONE and when something seems wrong he may need to speak up;
and more importantly:
(b) you trust and believe him, believe he deserves to be treated well, and will step in to protect him if you need to.

It sucks to be treated badly by anyone but luckily, you and your dh are the people who most determine how he will learn to think about himself and his life, and the message he has received from you through this experience is 100% positive.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

i would not even question if your son is telling the truth. he is.

i would also GET.HIM.OUT.RIGHT.NOW

i'm so angry for you right now i could beat his teacher with an alfie kohn book!


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

*hugs* What a horrific experience. I have taught in daycares before, and I can't even fathom slapping or spanking some other mother's child for acting out, let alone for getting an answer wrong!


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## Twwly (Jan 30, 2007)

Much support to you.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

It does sound as if he's telling the truth, and I think you're doing the right thing in keeping him out of the school. I do have to ask:

Quote:

His school pal, has corroborated (to his own mother) that my son (but not himself) has been spanked for the same reason ("hiding") that my son reports.
Did the pal tell his mother about it of his own accord, or did she ask him about it after she heard your son's story? One of my professors in college was doing research on the reliability of young children as eyewitnesses, and he found that it is appallingly easy to get them to say things have happened that didn't, just by asking if they did. Children often give the answer they think the questioner wants to hear. This doesn't mean that what the pal reported did NOT happen! Just that if he was asked a specific question, his affirmative response is not necessarily reliable.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Chandra, I have a lump in my throat reading this. What a loving mother you are. How lucky your dc are to have you. As parents we can't always control the world-at-large...but we can embrace our children and let them know we will always be there for them. The fact that you so swiftly and lovingly made him safe again is the best we can do as parents. That is what your child will make a part of his soul.


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## a(TM)?Star (Oct 13, 2005)

I almost cried when I read this. I'm so sorry for you and your Lo.







I don' tknow what to even tell you. I think your doing all the right things so far. I would bring it up with the school. But you're not in the U.S. where your son might have more rights. I wish you luck, hope you can come home soon. Give your LO a hug from all of us, noone deserves that. You're doing a great job.


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## Janelovesmax (Feb 17, 2006)

wow. just. wow.
that's awful...

Can you find another school? It must be difficult., It's probably going on everywhere.


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## Londonmom (Feb 5, 2008)

I am so sorry that is happening to you and your LO. Good luck in figuring out what to do, I have no idea where to even begin! (((hugs))))


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## highlandmum (Jan 20, 2008)

Oh mama! ((hugs))


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

I don't want to get kicked off this board so I'm trying to word this carefully...so I'll put a disclaimer here that I do NOT believe spanking is the ultimate solution to making kids behave.

but having said that, I'm probably not as anti-spanking as many people here on MDC are (again, NOT saying that spanking is a good thing), but if anyone other than my own mother or father ever dared to lay a hand on my son (and I don't care what he did) I would JACK. THAT. PERSON. UP.

NOBODY has the right to hit someone else's child. This really makes me mad....I'm so glad you send him back there before straightening this out. And I feel so bad for your son who was afraid to tell you.









Poor baby....can you possibly homeschool him? I can't imagine letting some stranger have the authority to hit my kid. That's SO wrong. But I imagine in that part of the world it must be difficult to find a school that follows that philosophy.

I've nannied and worked in quite a few schools/childcare facilities and would never ever hit another mother's child. It just isn't my place. I hope you find a solution that works for your son. Let him know that those teachers were WRONG!!!


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## 2honeysmamma (Jul 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
Did the pal tell his mother about it of his own accord, or did she ask him about it after she heard your son's story? One of my professors in college was doing research on the reliability of young children as eyewitnesses, and he found that it is appallingly easy to get them to say things have happened that didn't, just by asking if they did. Children often give the answer they think the questioner wants to hear. This doesn't mean that what the pal reported did NOT happen! Just that if he was asked a specific question, his affirmative response is not necessarily reliable.

I am sure it was after the fact that the mother asked him... And in reality it doesn't make a bit of difference to me whether ds's friend says he was spanked or not...it may or may not be reliable and I was not present when his mother spoke to him so who knows. It's really a moot point for me since *I* believe and support my ds.

My husband and I had a meeting with the director today and she seemed genuinely upset and shocked. She reiterated that she tells her teachers that they should take a short break from the classroom (and she or an aide will step in) if they are becoming upset or overly frustrated with the kids and that they are not to use physcial discipline. On one hand she said that I should believe my son, that it seems probable that *something* happened (though she questioned whether it could be somewhere else...except that he really doesn't go anywhere else) and on the other that "no one has seen anything" and that there would be no reason for anyone to hit him (well, duh!). The teacher is on leave until the matter is settled. She did indicate that if they are having real problems with a child's behavior that they would consult with the parents and do as the parent wished (i.e. might be spanking) with the permission of the parent. Which led me to point out that if is awfully hard to maintain a "no physical punishment " policy if some children *are* being physically punished with parental permission. She said that my ds has a ton of energy and sometimes doesn't listen well (developmentally appropriate in my mind) but that there was no avarice in him...he is very good tempered and smart and just needs to be kept busy (so he's not bored)...all of which are true and I'm pleased to hear that they *know* this about my son but I'm still not sending him back. She said that they have pulled ds out of class to talk with him and that there have been some days when he has been frustrating to the teacher but that it was handled with talking to ds and that he generally responded well to that... when asked not to jump off a chair he told her..."no, it's okay" and when she reiterated that it wasn't he said, "I know, my mom doesn't let me jump off the couch at home either!"

Overall, it was a meeting with mixed messages... but I do feel better that what happened is against the policy of the school and that she seems to be taking it seriously. I reiterated that my ds would not be returning and why and that I hoped that there would be some major teacher education going on to prevent future problems.

Chandra
expat mama to Grayce (6) and Owen (3)
India


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

OMG! I can't even imagine that. I am almost positive that that is illegal.

You are going to follow up with the school, right?


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