# Please help me with Bible verse



## Thing1Thing2 (Apr 30, 2008)

I don't believe in hitting my child. I am starting to convince my husband of this as well. We are Christian and his family believes in the Bible verse "foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of correction will drive it far from him." I don't believe they are taking that in context. Please help me with some info on what this verse really means and how to convince them that spanking is not the way to go.


----------



## Doll (Oct 28, 2005)

Marking this thread!

I'm in the exact same position. My husband isn't totally set on it (he doesn't spank our daughter) but as she gets cheekier it's come up more than once.


----------



## Spirit Dancer (Dec 11, 2006)

There are different interpretations of that verse (just like any other verse). I am sure someone will post on here a different way at looking at it then just literaly.
But one thing I will point out is that as Christians we no longer live under the old law. Christ came and replaced the old covenant as found in the Old Tetament (where your verse is from). No where in the New Covenant (that we no live under as set up by Jesus as is found in the New Testament) is there a command to hit one's children. The New Covenant supercedes the Old one.


----------



## Doll (Oct 28, 2005)

Okay I really hadn't thought to look it up thusfar but here are some verses I found that could be used to portray our message!

Galatians 5:22-23

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

A question you could ask would be, "Where would spanking fit into gentleness, self control, patience and kindness?"

Phillipians 4:5

5Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near.

"Let you gentleness be evident to ALL". Not just adults. Spanking, no matter how you spin it, is not gentle.

Colossians 3:12

12Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.

Again... gentleness, kindness and patience.

There are about a million verses that tell us to be gentle.. if you need more you could find them easily. You get the point I think









Proverbs 22:6

6Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Doesn't say anything about spanking.. if spanking was so important they would have said something about it here on the method of training.

Now, I'll warn you - there are a lot of verses, not just the one, about the rod. However:

Proverbs 29:15
15The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.

I have commentary on this. At the time, yes, spanking or "the rod" may have been used typically for discipline. However, I don't think this verse is saying you must use a rod - I think the POINT of this verse is to not just let your kids do whatever they want. There is a big difference.

A lot of things people used to do, and are even advocated in the bible are clearly not Godly. Concubines and multiple wives, hello.


----------



## Doll (Oct 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spirit Dancer* 
There are different interpretations of that verse (just like any other verse). I am sure someone will post on here a different way at looking at it then just literaly.
But one thing I will point out is that as Christians we no longer live under the old law. Christ came and replaced the old covenant as found in the Old Tetament (where your verse is from). No where in the New Covenant (that we no live under as set up by Jesus as is found in the New Testament) is there a command to hit one's children. The New Covenant supercedes the Old one.

And that is a very good point too!


----------



## frontierpsych (Jun 11, 2006)

I know that many Christians interpret "the rod" as the rod of guidance, such as a shepherd uses to guide his sheep. It is not a tool for striking a child, but instead a firm guidance, or showing your child the way.

HTH!


----------



## Doll (Oct 28, 2005)

Just thought of another thing - the verse that says, "thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me". How can a rod, if it's used for hitting as people suggest, bring comfort?

I would think it's more of a context like frontierpsych suggested.


----------



## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

You'd think if God meant hit, it would say hit.


----------



## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

hi bonnie, my favorite thing to share with chrisitians in reference to not spanking is a letter that an MDC mama wrote to her pastor. here's a link to his response & the original letter she sent to him. in addition, there are several christian websites as well that support spanking is not a biblical mandate. she gives the links in her letter as well. hth.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...370&highlight=


----------



## Thing1Thing2 (Apr 30, 2008)

Thanks - that letter was perfect! Christians should be the ones, of all people that should be showing grace to their children, yet so many of them take that verse literally without looking for the real meaning.

Thanks again


----------



## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

Thanks so much, Elizawill.







This is my favorite article on discipline right now. It addresses the rod verses in much more detail, as well as providing lots of other excellent info: http://parentingfreedom.com/discipline/

blessings,
Dulce


----------



## mommysarah5 (Jun 22, 2009)

This answers your question directly on that scripture and all the other rod scriptures as well.

http://www.gentlechristianmothers.co...s/rodstudy.php


----------



## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dulce de leche* 
Thanks so much, Elizawill.







This is my favorite article on discipline right now. It addresses the rod verses in much more detail, as well as providing lots of other excellent info: http://parentingfreedom.com/discipline/

blessings,
Dulce

you're welcome, dulce! i really LOVE the letter you wrote. i have read it many times independently, & i've shared it more times then i can count! thank you for sharing it here at MDC, so others could benefit from it as well


----------



## PreggieUBA2C (Mar 20, 2007)

I think that there is another issue involved as well- or many, many issues. It isn't enough to just not hit your child. If you have a punitive mindset, then simply not hitting will mean that you have 'alternatives' to hitting, which can be just as damaging and abusive as hitting, or worse.

Case in point is me. My parents hit me once when I was 3 yrs old and not again after that. I left home at 17 yrs of age in an ambulance though because the emotional and psychological abuse was so enormous that I had an adrenal crisis that nearly stopped my heart. I was literally nearly scared to death. It took all those years of this to use up my adrenal glands and at 32 yrs of age, I am presently just beginning to reverse the damage, with a great deal of effort and lost time in my life.

It is imperative that in not hitting, you find the root and core of why you won't do that, the root and core, inner workings and outward expressions of grace that you freely extend to your children as it is freely extended to you.

I have known and presently do know Christians who don't hit, but their methods of punishment are worse, imo. They take away what they call privileges from small children, which teaches them that their place and what they perceive as their life are insecure and can be taken from them at mum or dad's will. It teaches them a desperation and scarcity mindset that requires a constant stress response even when nothing in particular is actually happening.

Young children do not know what a privilege is; they know what we give them and how we live and it is all just the way it is. They don't have categories for privilege and necessity and they really shouldn't (yet). They are given under our care so that such distinctions can be a wash, a certainty, for them as they grow and learn. Mere survival isn't adequate if you are able to provide more for your child, and causing them to think of themselves as surviving is an abuse, again, unless that is an authentic reality.

Most of the 'alternatives to spanking' employ some sort of _emotional or psychological hitting_ such as this, and I caution anyone considering them to really look at the authentic action and outcome of these 'methods.' They are not grace-filled. Not even one of them, that I've heard of or seen.

I think of my children as people with less experience who need guidance to navigate this world and their lives. I want them to be confident to do so as they are able, increasingly as they grow until they are adults and still, they will need the skills and abilities they used as children to continue to navigate, only as developed navigators, I hope.

It is of utmost importance to me that I be a source and resource for the guidance and support they need to accomplish both obtaining the skills and also initiating, evaluating, analysing, and coping with mistakes.

I have no recollection of Jesus hitting me, or His Father. I know that I have lived out the consequences of my actions as they have authentically unfolded (not as a result of them being imposed upon me, except when through punishment- fines and tickets being an example). I do not believe that parents are the vicarious pain-inflictors for God upon His children.

I feel sad when I hear people say that parents are God to to their children. We are not; He is. If I am god, who is He when they want to be with Him? Why bother with such a confusion?

He is OUR God and we are ALL children; I simply have been a child here longer than my children have been and for that, I have the blessing of being the one they trust to teach them what I've already learned and to learn alongside them.

What a gift and a mercy to be allowed to turn from my mistakes and try something new and better with and for them! What a gift to share what I've learned that is pleasing and beautiful! Truly, not just sentimentally.


----------



## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

gentlechristianmothers.com

aolff.com

goybparenting.com

nakking, but bbl!


----------



## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

Great responses and links! Preggie, I love the point that you made about other forms of punishment.

I think that all parents want to be good ones. Realizing the enormous responsibility we have for our children causes us to examine our own upbringing, our relationships, our strengths and weaknesses, and do all that we can to give our very best to the precious life that is entrusted to us.

I started reading everything I could in pregnancy. I pored over magazines and books, studying everything from feeding to methods for helping us all to sleep. I asked questions about vaccinations and car seats. My husband didn't read all the stuff I did, but seemed to know intuitively things that I didn't get until after hours of research. I remember my surprise when he first mentioned that he would never spank our children.

My first thought was that the Bible teaches parents to spank. I knew that my husband's relationship with God was the very center of his life. His undergraduate degree was in theology, and he was passionate about his love for the Bible. How on earth could he, of all people, not follow such a clear instruction from God's Word?

So I began to study the issue of discipline, as well. As a language instructor, I appreciate what a difference the precise word can make, and the ways cultural bias influence translation and perceptions. I was intrigued to learn that the Hebrew words in the Proverbs passages did not refer to spanking at all. The more I looked into it, the more I was convinced that the Bible does not specifically teach spanking anywhere.

While learning that the Bible doesn't command us to spank was a turning point, I still didn't know what I should do. As I prayed, I felt that the Holy Spirit asked me to stop and think about how God disciplined me. How, exactly, did Jesus make me a disciple?

Until then, I was still looking at things from a punishment viewpoint. If physical punishment was out, then I would have to rely on other forms. However, I couldn't recall a single time in which God had punished me. He had corrected me many times, and there had been times when my stubbornness had resulted in unpleasant consequences. But never had God specifically done anything to hurt me.

As I looked back at His discipline, I was overwhelmed by the grace, mercy and patience that He had showered on my life. From the very beginning, with the Cross, every action seemed designed with one purpose: to restore relationship, to draw me to Him, and to change my heart. In areas where I messed up, He was patient and persistent in lovingly drawing me back.

I had memorized Romans 6 as a child. I know that as believers we are called to holiness. Suddenly, though, something was illuminated in my heart. Freedom from sin didn't come from being afraid of punishment. I didn't stop sinning because I was scared of what God would do to me. It came as He filled my heart with love for Him. I had something so much more satisfying in Him that the sin lost it's appeal.

Jesus commanded me to treat others the way I would wish to be treated. I would want correction if I were making a mistake, but I wouldn't want to be hit. I learn better from His love, patience and instruction, which give me the heart-desire to please Him.

I also keep coming back to the fact Jesus said that whatever we do to the smallest of these, we do to Him. What a transforming thought! Suddenly, everything from nightwakings to diaper changes to patience with age-expected behaviors looked very different.

I'm going to be very honest about another point with shifting to grace-based discipline. It is very easy for me to fall into arrogance and pride, demanding obedience simply because it is convenient for me, and reacting to their mistakes harshly. Spanking would have been an easy way for me to justify revenge on my children for not catering to my pride. Yet that isn't the way Jesus treated the disciples. It isn't the way He treats me. His example was one of humility and service. He washed their feet. He explained things over and over, even if they should have gotten it the first time. He taught by example.

It is exciting to see that as I try to follow Him, my children are so much more willing to follow me. Just as I choose to obey God because of the love in our relationship, my children are choosing to obey because of the love and trust they have. They still make mistakes, too, but grace is binding our hearts together.

Parenting is a touchy issue. Because we want so desperately to do the right thing, we become very sensitive to any perceived criticism. When I share with others about our journey in gentle discipline, it isn't because I think I am a better person or parent. It is because I know that thirsty feeling that there must be an alternative to hitting our children, something that follows the way Jesus told us to treat others. I am so grateful to all the parents who shared with me, and encouraged me to seek His heart in this.

If you are searching for more in the issue of discipline, I want to remind you of Isaiah 40:11. As we seek Him, picture how He gathers our little ones in His arms, and carries them close to His heart, and gently leads us in our parenting journey.


----------



## PreggieUBA2C (Mar 20, 2007)

Dulce, I agree wholeheartedly. Thank you for sharing your story and understandings.


----------



## Thing1Thing2 (Apr 30, 2008)

Preggie you opened up a whole new issue that I wasn't aware of.

If you don't believe in taking away privileges, may I ask how you "discipline"your child? I'm trying to come up with a plan that is good for our family, and to be honest, that was one of the ways I was planning on "disciplining".

Now that you mention it, I am very curious about other methods...


----------



## momma_unlimited (Aug 10, 2008)

Quote:

Preggie you opened up a whole new issue that I wasn't aware of.

If you don't believe in taking away privileges, may I ask how you "discipline"your child? I'm trying to come up with a plan that is good for our family, and to be honest, that was one of the ways I was planning on "disciplining".

Now that you mention it, I am very curious about other methods...
I thought about this thread all night- "slept on it" really- and I was sort of wondering something along these lines. Looking at New Testament dealings between God and man, I still find a bit of what looks like "punitive". I mean, if knocking Paul blind to get him on the right path isn't a "privilege removal", what is? And how about Ananias and Sapphira dropping dead on the spot? Death just doesn't seem to be aimed at "restoration".... so it seems like in some extreme cases, "punishment" is necessary....

There was also a great post, much food for thought, in a thread that was moved to religious studies but started here. In case some here can't access it (newbies) I will copy what one Jewish minded member shared, because it really opened up new perspective to me (esp in the light of the fact that many people defend *not spanking* by saying it is only an "Old Testament thing": (posted by nickarolaberry on the thread "the religious reasoning to spank a child":

Quote:

The Hebrew in Proverbs 23:13 reads, "Al timna min'a'ar musar ki teknu bashevet lo yamut".

More precisely translated, that means "Do not withhold discipline from a youth (read...young man for this Hebrew word na'ar) because if you reprimand him with a rod he will not die."

The word for rod here, as in other places, refers to guidance, not violence.

The context of the verse however is in a paragraph discussing how a person should behave in the presence of a king or absolute ruler. One should consider the consequences of incurring a host's displeasure because of inappropriate behavior or the moral harm that can come from being subservient to an unscrupulous person.

As with most Hebrew passages, you can't take one sentence out and expect it to make sense; nor can you derive conclusions from one verse. Hebrew is a very complex and subtle language. There are words that seem to mean the same thing, but they don't -- or, in different contexts they would mean something else. There are also tiny, intangible (to the unfamiliar) differences in the ways words are placed in sentences or vowels in words that make the meanings totally different from what would otherwise be expected.

Moreover, Proverbs (Mishlei) -- which we consider to have been written by Shlomo HaMelech (King Solomon) -- are beautiful thoughts and important lessons, but not at all authoritative in any sense of the word.

Another thing: I guess this is a fundamental theological difference with Christianity. But I take deep issue with the idea that Jews are somehow 'immature' in their relationship with G-d. You'll forgive me if I don't quite get the notion that you seem to be arguing -- that G-d's relationship with the Jews, as set down in the Torah, is based on a temporary promise. G-d's covenant with the Jews is eternal and unchanging. And as for the way we feel about it, well, He gave us quite precise instructions as to how to live a holy life. The Mitzvot ('laws') are not about guiding an 'immature' people toward some kind of relationship with G-d. Quite the contrary. They are about giving us insight into the ways G-d expects us to bring His presence and His holiness into the world on a daily basis, and live holier lives. And frankly, the whole premise of the Jews' accepting the Torah at Mt. Sinai was based not on a fearful people wary of relationship with HaKadosh Baruch Hu (The Holy One Blessed Be He) but a very trusting and open 'jump' into a G-d-led life. When Hashem asked the Jews if they wanted the Torah, they responded, "Na'aseh v'Nishmah." -- We will do and we will hear. In other words, we're trusting that G-d would direct our lives and we would live according to His will.

You might not understand those laws (they look 'legalistic' and I'm sure picayune to you) because you clearly don't get the interrelationship of the Written and Oral Torah. But a Torah life lived in accordance with G-ds expectations of us is a holy life filled with extreme closeness to G-d.

In any event, I still have not seen any evidence of anything in the Torah (your "Old Testament") which justifies, promotes, or advocates the striking of children.

It might be worthwhile to note that this is not a debate prevalent among the Jewish blogosphere or books, or anything of the sort. No Jewish 'parenting' book would justify it. This simply is a phantom argument. Base the Christian arguments for spanking on something in the New Testament because if you're trying to say it's derived from that "old legalistic and unenlightened "Old Testament" you're headed in the wrong direction.


----------



## treehugginhippie (Nov 29, 2004)

subbing to read later


----------



## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BonnieNova* 
Preggie you opened up a whole new issue that I wasn't aware of.

If you don't believe in taking away privileges, may I ask how you "discipline"your child? I'm trying to come up with a plan that is good for our family, and to be honest, that was one of the ways I was planning on "disciplining".

Now that you mention it, I am very curious about other methods...

when i read preggie's post, i didn't see the issue of privileges being removed as the main concern. rather, it seemed like her parents were abusive to her both emotionally and mentally. they were hurtful on purpose & she didn't feel unconditional love or acceptance in her home (at least that's how i perceived the post). i think you can destroy a person without ever laying a finger on them. it made me so sad to read her post









in our home, my children certainly have lost privileges to certain things. however, if my dh or i choose to go this route, we try to make the consequence relevant to the action. we don't just throw around punitive punishments. i also give my kids warnings first. for example, when my ds was smaller, he went through a terrible phase of hitting other kids. when we went to the park or playdates, he clearly knew in advance what behavior was acceptable. i can think of 2 incidents though where he was hitting other children (in spite of my shadowing him). i gave him a warning that we were going to have to leave, but regardless of the warning, we had to pack up and go home. i felt bad for my ds and i had empathy for him, but i also knew that staying and letting him hit kids was not an option. the privilege was revoked as a consequence of his actions. there are are other situations that privileges have been temporarily removed as well. it doesn't happen often, but when it does - i'm okay with it. i love my kids very much, and teaching them sometimes requires logical consequences & not just natural consequences.

anyway, that's my 2 cents.


----------



## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

Bonnie, there are so many answers to your question. I think it varies a lot among different familes, and even in the same family it may well change depending on age and personalities, etc.

For us, I feel that punishment gets in the way of discipline, which to me is about teaching. If I deliberately try to make my children miserable, it is much harder for them to focus on the lesson that I want to teach. Think about it--what has punishment taught you? Was it the lesson you want your children to learn? Could you have benefitted from other ways of teaching it?

The times when I was punished, I usually got angry over perceived injustice. I concentrated on the resentment and shame and fear rather than anything beneficial. Even something like taking away priveleges just taught me to view it from an economic standpoint rather than a moral one: was it worth it to me to pay the price and still do what I wanted, or did I comply just because of self-interest? Whether the action was right or wrong got lost so easily once it became an issue of punishment and "consequences".

We have three kids (5.5, 3.5 and 1), and all could fall pretty easily into the strong-willed category, so for us it is imperative that our children want to do what is right. We try to help them by teaching in fun ways. When they don't act right, it seems to be usually because they don't feel right--hungry, food allergies, sleepy, or hurt feelings. If we try to punish them for that, it wouldn't help the root issue. It would probably just make things worse for all of us. Instead, we try to show grace and treat them the way we would want to be treated.

Now, I admit, that some things may come down to semantics in the eyes of some people. Like Elizawill mentioned, if my children were hurting someone or something, we would remove them from the situation. However, the intent would be simply to protect everyone, not to make the child feel bad. If my son threw a hard object, I'd move it out of reach, but I wouldn't try to make him miserable. Instead, I'd offer him something soft and appropriate for throwing, or try to meet whatever need seemed to prompt the throwing in the first place. Some might see it as a punishment (that I removed the forbidden object), but I think intent does matter. And if we were proactive about teaching what is OK to throw and where, it might not be an issue.

I see it ultimately as being about teaching. What do I want my children to learn, and what effectively teaches it? Retribution, for me, has nothing to do with teaching. In the example of Ananias and Sapphira, there was no hope left--they died. So, it wasn't a case where they learned any lesson. It was execution. My children have never been at that stage







. There is always hope for them to learn.









Sorry--I've been trying to do a zillion things while typing this (we're leaving for the rest of the month). I will try to make more sense later.


----------



## Thing1Thing2 (Apr 30, 2008)

Thanks Dulce - you cleared alot up.

So I'm getting the idea that children naturally _want_ to please their parents and if you help them along, and provide for their needs, they will cooperate most times.

It only becomes a power struggle when we try to "punish" them by making them feel bad. This makes them angry and removes the original focus, which is learning to do the right thing.

Am I correct?


----------



## chipper26 (Sep 4, 2008)

I haven't read the other replies, but I did read an interpretation that concerned the word "rod" on another thread recently. I thought it made perfect sense. The rod and staff are used by shepherds to GUIDE sheep, so the meaning could be simply to provide teaching and guidance. Why else would the Psalm say, "thy rod and staff, they COMFORT me"?


----------



## chipper26 (Sep 4, 2008)

This link discusses how the interpretation of the Hebrew word can mean either rod or staff.

http://www.keyway.ca/htm2000/20000321.htm


----------



## Snugglebugmom (Mar 17, 2008)

Ultimately to be Christian is to strive to be like Christ. When did Jesus ever hit a child?
I may be grossly over-simplifying things, but this is what I keep in mind at all times.


----------



## dulce de leche (Mar 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BonnieNova* 
Thanks Dulce - you cleared alot up.

So I'm getting the idea that children naturally _want_ to please their parents and if you help them along, and provide for their needs, they will cooperate most times.

It only becomes a power struggle when we try to "punish" them by making them feel bad. This makes them angry and removes the original focus, which is learning to do the right thing.

Am I correct?

For the most part, yes.







Of course, kids are human, too, and there are times when they simply want their own way even when it is hurtful for them or others. But boundaries can be in place without punishment of any kind, and most of the time, we have a very peaceful, happy home just because we like each other so much.









Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn, Parent Effectiveness Training by Thomas Gordon, and Playful Parenting by Lawrence Cohen all give some good info.

I've found that if I give my kids the opportunity to brainstorm conflicts, they amaze me with the solutions that they come up with. My 5 year old is absolutely brilliant at thinking of ways that everyone will be happy, and she has been doing it since she was 3! At this point, she has learned to excel at zeroing in on what is important to me and dh, and coming up with creative ideas that satisfy all of us. I think she has a wonderful future as a mediator/lawyer/negotiator of some kind.


----------



## momma_unlimited (Aug 10, 2008)

Still thinking on the ideas in this thread and I just had this vision...

Remember the story of the debtor who was forgiven of a large sum and turned around and demanded a smaller sum from someone who owed him?

I just realized... that is essentially how I was raised, and how I began to raise my kids. My parents were forgiven this huge debt of guilt by God, and yet held me accountable as a small child to pay back my guilt in punishments. And I started off parenting the same way... how merciful God was to reach down and show me another path.


----------

