# What happens when the parents cant agree?



## kalohabreeze (Aug 9, 2007)

What happens when you and your husband can't agree. Like literally there is no way to convince him otherwise? Do you take the matter to court? Risk an otherwise awesome marriage and kindly ask him to step off?

Has anyone had to battle in court over it? who won?

Even if it's an elective procedure could it be construed as denying Medical care?


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

The big problem with divorcing over this issue is that when your ex has a a turn with custody he can legally just take the kid in for a circ himself because he's the parent. Better to keep making your point and hoping he'll come around. Just be firm that "it isn't happening" to your son.

You don't say where you live but I'm in the Pacific Northwest.. the circ rate here is pretty low for non Jews. That would give me hope that a judge would not find in favor of it.


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## Greg B (Mar 18, 2006)

Seems to me that if agreement can't be reached, then no action should be taken because that leaves both options open. I am sure the one advocating for circumcsion won't like that, but it seems like th only logical choice under that scenario.

But you should look through the older posts here. Many have had real trouble getting agreement, but have persevered and eventually gotten it. If you give up more information about what his reasoning is, that may help.

Remember, amputating the foreskin should have some benefit that clearly outweighs the risk and damage done. It is not accpetable for the pro circ person to simply give emotional pleas. they must be able to articulate why it is the best choice, and should have support, not just their own feelings. Lacking a solid argument, the conclusion should be do no harm and leave your son's options open.

Regards


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## tammylsmith (Jul 11, 2008)

My dh was completely set against the idea of leaving ds intact. We have a great marriage, and open lines of communication, but for many of the same cultural reasons that parents give their sons over to this pointless surgery, dh was firm that it had to be done. Here is how I had success:

1) if your marriage is otherwise strong, this should not lead to divorce or legal battles. YOU sign the consent form in the hospital. Simply do not consent.

2) I backed off trying to convince dh. I wasn't mean or standoffish about it, but with a gentle and loving heart, I just stood firm and didn't bring up the topic as if it were up for discussion. It was cased closed. period, though I told him I would consider any medical points he could bring to the table (he looked, and couldn't find anything, which surprised him I think) Dh got combative the more I tried to convince him, so I just accepted that he didn't want to be convinced and left it at that. If you must, emphasize that this is something your ds can always elect to do himself if he wants it.

3) I was lucky, in that our family doctor is from a culture that doesn't circ, and so is one of our good friends. That helped dh a lot. If you don't have those options available, just stick with points 1 & 2.

There is this great quote from the emperor character in Disney's Mulan... "No matter how the wind howls, the mountain doesn't bow to it"

Just be the mountain. Don't be angry. Remember to have empathy for your dh, who was a victim of this culture like my dh was. My dh ultimately came around when he finally held our perfect little boy, and even when as far as to apologize and tell me I was right all along (lol, he NEVER says that!). I hope you have a similar experience


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## mama24-7 (Aug 11, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kalohabreeze*
> 
> What happens when you and your husband can't agree. Like literally there is no way to convince him otherwise? Do you take the matter to court? Risk an otherwise awesome marriage and kindly ask him to step off?
> 
> ...


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tammylsmith*
> 
> My dh was completely set against the idea of leaving ds intact. We have a great marriage, and open lines of communication, but for many of the same cultural reasons that parents give their sons over to this pointless surgery, dh was firm that it had to be done. Here is how I had success:
> 
> ...


I'm glad to see Tammy posted about this; she's always the one I think of when parents battle & the mother just says "No."

Any time there is a dispute between a circ'd dad-to-be & a mama-to-be, I always link to this article. It may help you to understand why he is so insistent. It is just for you: http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/vincent/vulnerability_of_men.html

Another tactic some have taken, is to tell the person who wants it done that they have to have compelling & convincing reasons to have it done. NOt myths, etc. Facts. Let him convince you.

Best wishes,

Sus


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## To-Fu (May 23, 2007)

What about the approach of telling your husband it should be your son's choice--not yours or your husband's at all--and just let your kid decide when he's old enough? The owner of the penis should get to decide what happens to it, right?

Would an argument like that resonate with him?


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Deep, deep breath. How far along are you?

I'm going to second a pp's suggestion of reading this essay:

http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/vincent/vulnerability_of_men.html

It is very, very good. Hopefully that will be enough to do the trick. Over the years many, many MDC moms have said that this essay changed everything for them and their dh on this topic.

If not, when you are close to giving birth, you can let everyone in the hospital (and baby's pediatrician, etc.) know that you will sue if your son is circumcised. If you feel like you need to contact a lawyer, you can contact www.arclaw.org. And you can tell your dh "over my dead body." You can tell him that if he circumcises your son, your marriage will be over and you will divorce him. BUT DO NOT say that now. Work on what the essay suggests, first.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

For me, I backed off confronting DH and having the argument head-on. He reads a lot of internet articles of his own choosing (not parenting related ones). I heard a little about his arguments - conformity and fitting in in school, and chose FEW articles that addressed circumcision rates where we live and overall. I did not focus on infant pain, emotional scarring or sexual issues - because I knew they were non-starters for him (maybe some were too close to the truth). I did not overwhelm him with article after article and angle after angle.

When DS was born, DH had still not read the articles I gave him. I never nagged about it. When the nurse asked if we wanted him circumcised, I said no and DH said yes. Nurse said she would come back tomorrow after we had talked about it. DH looked at and said something like we never got to talk about this. I asked if he had read the articles, he said no but I know you have. We talked about what was in them.

Nurse comes back the next day and asks the same question. Have you decided on circumcision. I say no, DH says well....

DH then figures out that it doesn't HAVE to be done in the hospital and the Ped can do it, after we've talked more. At this point I know I'm winning because I KNOW DH is just not going to make special trip or special effort to get this done. He just won't remember and it will never be a priority for him. I say OK - and I NEVER bring it up. I've already decided, if we wants to talk about it - let him bring it up.

Several days later we are in the car, leaving the peds office (Jewish woman with 2 sons) and DH finally remembers. I tell him to go back in and talk to her. We have an older daughter so we've been with this ped for years. I don't know what she said to him, but he came back in and said it was fine.

Now - every approach is going to be different, and I'm just telling you what worked for me and my DH. I knew he would not be inclined to EVER bring the issue up himself or do anything about it after we left he hospital. I let that benign neglect work in my favor and I think I avoided many big fights and putting him a corner where he dug himself in. He didn't have to fight me on it because I didn't keep coming at him.


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## ShadowMoon (Oct 18, 2006)

My ex was extremely opposed to leaving our son intact. I was extremely opposed to having him cut.

I put my foot down and left him intact, knowing he would never go behind my back to have it done. He resented, (and still resents), me for that decision. But the decision was never ours to make in the first place.


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## tropicana (Sep 11, 2011)

goodness no don't go to court over it.

if you are having a hospital birth, remember that YOU are the patient, and the hospital will abide by your wishes (or at least they are legally supposed to).

if you oppose circumcision, tell the hospital that. tell the doctors, tell the nurses, make sure you don't sign a consent form in the heat of labor pains.

just stick to your guns. i agree with the PP, that you don't bring it up again with your husband.

your husband is defensive over what happened to his own penis. he NEEDS to feel that he's in the right, that his own parents made the "right" decision; anything else is psychologically too much to bear. so don't force him to keep having the conversation over and over. don't have the need to be right yourself, by getting his "buy in."

i do believe that most men who want their sons circumcised, want it done the day after he's born, when he "won't remember it," and / or "won't feel any pain." or whatever line they believe.

if you can make it past the hospital stay, and bring your son home intact, there is a very good chance that the subject won't come up again, and that will be the end of it.

be content to have an intact son, and never discuss it with your husband again.

that's my BTDT advice...


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## puddle (Aug 30, 2007)

My DH and I never agreed. DH made an appointment with a urologist. I went along and told the urologist I didn't want it done. He refused to do it without both of us on board, so that was the end. DH was pissed as hell and didn't really talk to me for a week or two, but we got through it. He still lives in fear of our son's foreskin that he's certain will have devastating consequences someday, but mostly we just don't talk about it. It wasn't the way I'd have preferred things to play out, but it is what it is. I think the consequences for our marriage would have been much worse if I had given in, because I never would have forgiven either one of us.


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## ursaminor (Mar 28, 2009)

California now has a law stating only 1 parent needs to consent for a circ. If you live in that state, keep your baby very close.


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## HillHouse (Aug 29, 2011)

This issue is killing me. I am about 16 weeks pregnant and anti circ and my husband is 100% pro. I just read The Vulnerability of Men article and that is the exact same argument we had last night. We have a 16 month old daughter so this was never an issue before. I am praying we have another girl so we don't have to go down this road. I will be getting a sonogram soon to determine the sex. If its a boy I will just have to put my foot down. The stress of waiting to find out is horrible. I have been trying not to get too worked up since we don't know yet but it's hard.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *puddle*
> 
> My DH and I never agreed. DH made an appointment with a urologist. I went along and told the urologist I didn't want it done. He refused to do it without both of us on board, so that was the end. DH was pissed as hell and didn't really talk to me for a week or two, but we got through it. He still lives in fear of our son's foreskin that he's certain will have devastating consequences someday, but mostly we just don't talk about it. It wasn't the way I'd have preferred things to play out, but it is what it is. I think the consequences for our marriage would have been much worse if I had given in, because I never would have forgiven either one of us.


I'm so proud of you!

DH and I did Bradley childbirth classes and when the instructor told him there's no reason for it.... and then a few days later our CN -midwife told him the same thing... that was the end of it. He trusted these two professionals and we never looked back. Our intact son is 16 and never had any issues.


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## MichelleZB (Nov 1, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HillHouse*
> 
> This issue is killing me. I am about 16 weeks pregnant and anti circ and my husband is 100% pro. I just read The Vulnerability of Men article and that is the exact same argument we had last night. We have a 16 month old daughter so this was never an issue before. I am praying we have another girl so we don't have to go down this road. I will be getting a sonogram soon to determine the sex. If its a boy I will just have to put my foot down. The stress of waiting to find out is horrible. I have been trying not to get too worked up since we don't know yet but it's hard.


 Sorry you're going through this! Keep us updated.


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## ma2two (May 4, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kalohabreeze*
> 
> What happens when you and your husband can't agree.


Let your son decide as a teenager. Sounds simplistic, but it makes sense if you think about it. Perhaps your husband will see the logic in that.


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## bugmenot (May 29, 2005)

Tell your husband to come up with ONE valid reason that CANNOT be "canceled out" by a reason to leave intact.

For example:
If he says "son should be circumcised because he'll look different in the locker room"
You say "If he's teased, he just has to loudly ask why someone is looking and they'll feel uncomfortable for knowing that they're a looker."

If he says "Dirt can get trapped under the skin"
You say "Should we remove the skin from our eyes or our daughters' vaginas?"

Just tell him to come up with ONE vaild reason.


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## Monkeygrrl (Oct 9, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bugmenot*
> 
> Tell your husband to come up with ONE valid reason that CANNOT be "canceled out" by a reason to leave intact.
> For example:
> ...


This. Put the burden of proof why the child needs to be circ'd on him. And have documentation ready when he brings those reasons to you.


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## HillHouse (Aug 29, 2011)

Sonogram is scheduled for Aug 6th and we will find out then boy or girl. I think I am winning the war. He said to me the other day "what if he wants it done when he is older"? I told him no big deal we can discuss then but I could not in good conscience subject a baby to a medical procedure that was for cosmetic reasons only. Fingers crossed this just blows over.


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## Greg B (Mar 18, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HillHouse*
> 
> Sonogram is scheduled for Aug 6th and we will find out then boy or girl. I think I am winning the war. He said to me the other day "what if he wants it done when he is older"? I told him no big deal we can discuss then but I could not in good conscience subject a baby to a medical procedure that was for cosmetic reasons only. Fingers crossed this just blows over.


Stay strong. Your doing well. Your son will thank you someday. I wish my mom had done that.

Regards


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## tammylsmith (Jul 11, 2008)

Well I'll bet OP knows by now, but I still wanted to chime in my 2 cents. I can't stress enough that you don't have to agree!(!!!)

Edited because I didn't realize I posted a response to this thread already, lol. Oops  The above is my point in a nutshell.


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## LLQ1011 (Mar 28, 2012)

I hope you live where I live. It never came up. THe hospitals here don't do it. And our pediatrician never asked. My boyfriend brought it up and my pediatrician said something along the lines of "Cosmetic surgery is for adults" when the baby was jaundice in the NICU the lady did ask but I refused and that was the end of that. THere was no consent form. I am hoping the culture is just changing.

Good luck mama. It's us that will change this for the next generation. Heres hoping in 50 years its not even something that comes up!!!


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## mama24-7 (Aug 11, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LLQ1011*
> 
> I hope you live where I live. It never came up. THe hospitals here don't do it. And our pediatrician never asked. My boyfriend brought it up and *my pediatrician said something along the lines of "Cosmetic surgery is for adults"* when the baby was jaundice in the NICU the lady did ask but I refused and that was the end of that. THere was no consent form. I am hoping the culture is just changing.
> 
> Good luck mama. It's us that will change this for the next generation. Heres hoping in 50 years its not even something that comes up!!!


OMGoodness, I love that! For my email signature, I say something about circ & have a link to intactamerica.org. I may just change it to this!

Sus


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HillHouse*
> 
> This issue is killing me. I am about 16 weeks pregnant and anti circ and my husband is 100% pro. I just read The Vulnerability of Men article and that is the exact same argument we had last night. We have a 16 month old daughter so this was never an issue before. I am praying we have another girl so we don't have to go down this road. I will be getting a sonogram soon to determine the sex. If its a boy I will just have to put my foot down. The stress of waiting to find out is horrible. I have been trying not to get too worked up since we don't know yet but it's hard.


Just keep letting your dh know (through actions) that you love *all* of him just the way he is. While also letting him know that your ds WON'T be circumcised, over your dead body, end of story.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

here and many other states medicaid doesnt even cover it because it's not a necessary procedure. if my partner ever went and had it done behind my back that would be the end of my marriage to them.


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## bugmenot (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HillHouse*
> 
> Sonogram is scheduled for Aug 6th and we will find out then boy or girl. I think I am winning the war. He said to me the other day "what if he wants it done when he is older"? I told him no big deal we can discuss then but I could not in good conscience subject a baby to a medical procedure that was for cosmetic reasons only. Fingers crossed this just blows over.


If he does want it done when he gets older

1) He can pay for it himself
2) It will be easier to do, since the penis will be much larger
3) He can be given the necessary pain killers and medicines to be put to sleep during the operation


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## bugmenot (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sharlla*
> 
> here and many other states medicaid doesnt even cover it because it's not a necessary procedure. if my partner ever went and had it done behind my back that would be the end of my marriage to them.


...and in some states where Medicare/Medicaid does pay for it, they may (or may not) cover it as an adult, because an adult circumcision is "a cosmetic procedure" whereas a RIC is not considered a cosmetic procedure.

Disgusting.


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## mama24-7 (Aug 11, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bugmenot*
> 
> If he does want it done when he gets older
> 1) He can pay for it himself
> ...


The other notable thing about having a circ as an adult is that the foreskin will not need to be ripped from the glans. Since it will almost always be retractable, the glans will not be wounded as well. And there's the whole wound-mixing-with-feces-&-urine issue.

Disgusting.

Sus


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## rielly (Dec 20, 2010)

This thread is very helpful. I just found out we're expecting a boy and I suspect my husband will be pro-circ. I'm a nurse and am 100% against circumcision. I've seen so many of them performed (by OB interns no less!) and I could never subject a newborn to that kind of trauma. Our first child is a girl so this never came up for us. Is anyone aware of any videos or documentaries I could show my husband to help make him aware of what the procedure entails & the risks involved? I want to convince him, but I don't want to come across as a know-it-all who doesn't respect his opinion. We had a homebirth last time, but this time we'll be using a birthing center bc my midwife will be out of town when I'm likely to deliver. I still need to ask my OB about how this issue is handled at the birthing Ctr. Hoping they don't offer it as a matter of course.


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## rielly (Dec 20, 2010)

PS

I will be sure to read the essay! Thanks!


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## alaskanmomma (May 25, 2011)

Unfortunately, when DH and I disagreed, I gave into his bullying and got our son circumcised. Needless to say that "routine" procedure put us through almost 2 years of hell, countless urologist visits and 2 more surgeries to correct what the original dr. botched. If I could go back in time, I wouldn't have given in, if he really was going to leave me or not want to be in our sons life and the other angry(and I am just going to assume were empty) threats, he could go ahead. My child is more important.


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## Mitchell756 (Oct 14, 2012)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rielly*
> 
> This thread is very helpful. I just found out we're expecting a boy and I suspect my husband will be pro-circ. I'm a nurse and am 100% against circumcision. I've seen so many of them performed (by OB interns no less!) and I could never subject a newborn to that kind of trauma. Our first child is a girl so this never came up for us. Is anyone aware of any videos or documentaries I could show my husband to help make him aware of what the procedure entails & the risks involved? I want to convince him, but I don't want to come across as a know-it-all who doesn't respect his opinion. We had a homebirth last time, but this time we'll be using a birthing center bc my midwife will be out of town when I'm likely to deliver. I still need to ask my OB about how this issue is handled at the birthing Ctr. Hoping they don't offer it as a matter of course.


The Penn and teller episode on circumcision may be the easiest for him to understand without doing the mountains of research that many of the rest of us do.

Here is the episode: 




This page describes the function of the foreskin. http://www.coloradonocirc.org/foreskin.php

A man describes his experience of having a full circumcision for non medical reasons as an adult. 




Soraya Mire describes her view of male and female forced genital alterations. 




Guide to the intact penis. http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/info/physiciansguide.html

Circumcision decision maker. http://circumcisiondecisionmaker.com/

And finally you should show him a video of a circumcision being performed. When I first saw one I was horrified and absolutely infuriated! Here is one that deeply disturbs me to even look up. 




Show him all of these things and if he still insists remember that you have the ability to single handedly prevent this from occurring. You are the only one that can protect your son at the most vulnerable point in his life, he is depending on you. Don't let him down.


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## rielly (Dec 20, 2010)

Thank you, Mitchell. These are great resources. I still have to put out feelers as to his opinion, but I like to come armed to a potential fight. I'm pretty sure he will be pro-circ. Like I said, I have seen many circs in the nursery. They are indeed very disturbing to watch. I convinced him to have a homebirth the first time around and I'm generally very easy going in terms of other big life decisions, so I'm very hopeful I can get this done without a (big) fight. But fight I will should it come to that. I just could not stand for it. I will post back here and let you know how it goes. I probably won't be able to bring it up until this weekend. Thank you again for your support. Much appreciated.


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

Reilly, There are a couple of excellent videos out there that may help:

An Elephant in the Hospital: http://www.youtube/watch?v=ZSM-SkwGEf0 Narrated by a doctor, it just gives the facts in a non emotional and very rational way. I love it - it is so "common sense".

Penn &Teller: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLGcqPE7xu0&feature=related  This is a bit coarse, but very funny and should appeal to any man.

Just remember, the foreskin in question belongs to your son. No one else. So it should be him that decides if he wants to keep it or not. There are thousands of men out there who are really angry that their parents and the medical community took that choice away from them. Also, I suspect that should you back down to your DH, then you will resent him for ever for forcing you into damaging your son.

Good luck, and feel free to ask any more questions.


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## EchoSoul (Jan 24, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hakunangovi*
> 
> Reilly, There are a couple of excellent videos out there that may help:
> 
> ...


Great links... I think I will show these to my friend who's pregnant with a baby boy. I just fear her backlash that I'm sticking my nose where it doesn't belong...


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## rielly (Dec 20, 2010)

I watched the "Elephant in the Hospital" lecture in nursing school. Thank you for the reminder. I pre-screened all of the videos last night. Really great resources. I think I will start with a verbal argument & then move on to the baby being circ'd on you tube and follow up w the lecture and Penn, etc if need be. I think that video of the infant is particularly effective because the viewer hears both the baby and the father. The father sounds like he really regrets consenting.

I would indeed resent my husband, but mostly myself, if I were to back down. I'm prepared to negotiate, too. I've thought I could offer him sole "naming rights" if it comes to that, although I highly doubt it will. It's sad that this is a cultural norm for us that we have to push up against.


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## rielly (Dec 20, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EchoSoul*
> 
> Great links... I think I will show these to my friend who's pregnant with a baby boy. I just fear her backlash that I'm sticking my nose where it doesn't belong...


That's why it's called INFORMED consent


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## rielly (Dec 20, 2010)

Beware- long post!

Ok so I have officially underestimated the greatness of DH. I wasn't planning on bringing anything up until tomorrow, but we were sitting together on the couch and he brought out his planner to share some boy names that he jotted down during work. Well, I found it very nice that he included names that I know give him pause because he knows I like them. There were some great new names on the list, as well, which we both really liked. It was a happy moment full of joy & anticipation for the new baby. We may have found our working title! Then he asked if I had thought of any new names.

No, I said, I have been preoccupied with something else. I'm really incredibly reluctant to circumcise the baby, so I've been spending my free time researching that. I've seen so many circ's in the hospital, and they strike me as very brutal.

Well, his response was WAY better than I anticipated. He said he has had conversations with his business partner about his decision to circ or leave his own sons intact. It appears that his business partner thought the only reason to circ would be locker room teasing. My husband thinks he & his wife decided against it, but can't remember for sure.

Since he brought up the cosmetic aspect, I decided to bring up the regional circ stats that I read in the links provided by this forum. I also pointed out that circumcision is illegal in the UK, and very rare throughout Europe & North America outside of the US. Thanks to you all, I was able to rattle of some impressive stats, proving that trends show that hardly any US born child will be alone in their intact state in a large group of peers. I also raised the point I heard in the Penn & Teller episode about teaching children to love their bodies as they are made by nature. I think that resonated with my husband even more than the stats.

He said he would like to talk to his brothers about their decisions, and I suspect their sons are circumcised. Because of this I asked him, what if you couldn't get feedback from anyone else? What if you had to decide based on the information you have, your instinct as a parent, and nothing more? He replied that he would choose in that case to leave our son intact. I said, me, too. I can't bear the thought of putting any baby, let alone my baby through a medically unnecessary, painful surgery. I told him that I won't change my mind no matter what people say, although I will listen to them if that's what he wants to do, because I suspect that they made their decision to go through with circumcision based largely on some combination of misinformation and cultural bias. I also don't think it's any of their business. I said that our son's body would be his own, and that I don't like the idea of some antiquated ritual getting in the way of his autonomy. He kind of made a joke out if that, but it didn't feel dismissive. He just said, that doesn't surprise me- we all know you're an undercover hippy. He is also an undercover hippy, so this is something of an inside joke for us.

This seemed to settle it, and we went back to discussing names and what to get DH's older brother for his birthday. I feel hugely relieved and I just wanted to post to let those of you who shared your perspectives and knowledge with me know how much I appreciate it. I am very confident in my decision, and I think that confidence allowed me to discuss the issue w DH in a calm, non-threatening way, and for that I thank you all.


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## Mitchell756 (Oct 14, 2012)

That is wonderful news Rielly, I am glad that it all worked out for you and your husband.


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