# Soy is bad for you, Soy is bad for your children



## civmom511 (Jan 7, 2005)

Please do not attack me, I know there are people in these forums who are big advocates of soy and I can understand that, I used to be one of them. I was a vegetarian for three years...only meat I ate was soy and seafood, I even fed my poor baby son soy formula after he weaned off breastmilk (I still live with the guilt of that everyday). But I uncovered the truth about soy, soy is very very bad for you but the food corporations don't want you to know that (don't buy your food from a corporation, buy it from the farmers, join a CSA...or better yet produce your own food). Soybeans are cheap and easy to process, which means lots of money for the corporations and lots of promotion of it from mainstream doctors, the FDA, university scientists and so forth becuause they are all getting big pay-offs from corporations to not let the truth of soy out...but here is some of the truth and follow the link if you want to know more.

Myths and truths about soy

Myth: Use of soy as a food dates back many thousands of years.

Truth: Soy was first used as a food during the late Chou dynasty (1134-246 BC), only after the Chinese learned to ferment soy beans to make foods like tempeh, natto and tamari.

Myth: Asians consume large amounts of soy foods.

Truth: Average consumption of soy foods in Japan and China is 10 grams (about 2 teaspoons) per day. Asians consume soy foods in small amounts as a condiment, and not as a replacement for animal foods.

Myth: Modern soy foods confer the same health benefits as traditionally fermented soy foods.

Truth: Most modern soy foods are not fermented to neutralize toxins in soybeans, and are processed in a way that denatures proteins and increases levels of carcinogens.

Myth: Soy foods provide complete protein.

Truth: Like all legumes, soy beans are deficient in sulfur-containing amino acids methionine and cystine. In addition, modern processing denatures fragile lysine.

Myth: Fermented soy foods can provide vitamin B12 in vegetarian diets.

Truth: The compound that resembles vitamin B12 in soy cannot be used by the human body; in fact, soy foods cause the body to require more B12

Myth: Soy formula is safe for infants.

Truth: Soy foods contain trypsin inhibitors that inhibit protein digestion and affect pancreatic function. In test animals, diets high in trypsin inhibitors led to stunted growth and pancreatic disorders. Soy foods increase the body's requirement for vitamin D, needed for strong bones and normal growth. Phytic acid in soy foods results in reduced bioavailabilty of iron and zinc which are required for the health and development of the brain and nervous system. Soy also lacks cholesterol, likewise essential for the development of the brain and nervous system. Megadoses of phytoestrogens in soy formula have been implicated in the current trend toward increasingly premature sexual development in girls and delayed or retarded sexual development in boys.

Myth: Soy foods can prevent osteoporosis.

Truth: Soy foods can cause deficiencies in calcium and vitamin D, both needed for healthy bones. Calcium from bone broths and vitamin D from seafood, lard and organ meats prevent osteoporosis in Asian countries-not soy foods.

Myth: Modern soy foods protect against many types of cancer.

Truth: A British government report concluded that there is little evidence that soy foods protect against breast cancer or any other forms of cancer. In fact, soy foods may result in an increased risk of cancer.

Myth: Soy foods protect against heart disease.

Truth: In some people, consumption of soy foods will lower cholesterol, but there is no evidence that lowering cholesterol improves one's risk of having heart disease.

Myth: Soy estrogens (isoflavones) are good for you.

Truth: Soy isoflavones are phyto-endocrine disrupters. At dietary levels, they can prevent ovulation and stimulate the growth of cancer cells. Eating as little as 30 grams (about 4 tablespoons) of soy per day can result in hypothyroidism with symptoms of lethargy, constipation, weight gain and fatigue.

Myth: Soy foods are safe and beneficial for women to use in their postmenopausal years.

Truth: Soy foods can stimulate the growth of estrogen-dependent tumors and cause thyroid problems. Low thyroid function is associated with difficulties in menopause.

Myth: Phytoestrogens in soy foods can enhance mental ability.

Truth: A recent study found that women with the highest levels of estrogen in their blood had the lowest levels of cognitive function; In Japanese Americans tofu consumption in mid-life is associated with the occurrence of Alzheimer's disease in later life.

Myth: Soy isoflavones and soy protein isolate have GRAS (Generally Recognized as Safe) status.

Truth: Archer Daniels Midland (ADM) recently withdrew its application to the FDA for GRAS status for soy isoflavones following an outpouring of protest from the scientific community. The FDA never approved GRAS status for soy protein isolate because of concern regarding the presence of toxins and carcinogens in processed soy.

Myth: Soy foods are good for your sex life.

Truth: Numerous animal studies show that soy foods cause infertility in animals. Soy consumption enhances hair growth in middle-aged men, indicating lowered testosterone levels. Japanese housewives feed tofu to their husbands frequently when they want to reduce his virility.

Myth: Soy beans are good for the environment.

Truth: Most soy beans grown in the US are genetically engineered to allow farmers to use large amounts of herbicides.

Myth: Soy beans are good for developing nations.

Truth: In third world countries, soybeans replace traditional crops and transfer the value-added of processing from the local population to multinational corporations.

If you want to learn more, please go here: http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/index.html

What's wrong with politically correct nutrition?

LIE: Avoid saturated fats
TRUTH: Saturated fats play many important roles in the body. They provide integrity to the cell membrane, enhance the body's use of essential fatty acids, enhance the immune system, protect the liver and contribute to strong bones. Saturated fats do not cause heart disease. In fact, saturated fats are the preferred food for the heart. Your body makes saturated fats out of carbohydrates.

LIE: Limit cholesterol
TRUTH: Dietary cholesterol contributes to the strength of the intestinal wall and helps babies and children develop a healthy brain and nervous system. Foods that contain cholesterol also provide many other important nutrients. Only oxidized cholesterol, found in powdered milk and eggs, contributes to heart disease. Powdered milk is added to 1% and 2% milk.

LIE: Use more polyunsaturated oils
TRUTHolyunsaturates in more than small amounts contribute to cancer, heart disease, autoimmune diseases, learning disabilities, intestinal problems and premature aging. Large amounts of polyunsaturated fats are new to the human diet, due to the modern use of commercial liquid vegetable oils.
Avoid red meat Red meat is a rich source of nutrients that protect the heart and nervous system including vitamins B12 and B6, zinc, phosphorus, carnitine and Coenzyme Q10.

LIE: Cut back on eggs
TRUTH: Eggs are nature's perfect food, providing excellent protein, the gamut of nutrients and important fatty acids that contribute to the health of the brain and nervous system. Americans had less heart disease when they ate more eggs. Egg substitutes cause rapid death in test animals.

LIE: Eat lean meat and drink lowfat milk
TRUTH: Lean meat and lowfat milk lack fat soluble vitamins needed to assimilate protein and minerals in meat and milk. Consumption of low-fat foods can lead to depletion of vitamin A and D reserves.

LIE: Limit fat consumption to 30% of calories
TRUTH: 30% calories as fat is too low for most people, leading to low blood sugar and fatigue. Traditional diets contained 40% to 80% of calories as healthy fats, mostly of animal origin.

LIE: Eat 6-11 servings of grains per day
TRUTH: Most grain products are made from white flour, which is devoid of nutrients. Additives in white flour can cause vitamin deficiencies. Whole grain products can cause mineral deficiencies and intestinal problems unless properly prepared.

LIE: Restrict salt
TRUTH: Salt is crucial to digestion and assimilation. Salt is also necessary for the development and functioning of the nervous system.

LIE: At least 5 servings of fruits and vegetables per day
TRUTH: Fruits and vegetables receive an average of 10 applications of pesticides, from seed to storage. Consumers should seek out organic produce. Quality counts!

LIE: Eat more soy foods
TRUTH: Modern soy foods block mineral absorption, inhibit protein digestion, depress thyroid function and contain potent carcinogens.

For more information, visit: http://www.westonaprice.org/splash_2.htm


----------



## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

First off, if you were eating fish......

a vegetarian you were not!







:

BUT- just like anything- soy in rational quantities is good for you. We, as americans, have made soy BAD by over consumption.

I'm a strict vegetarian. My family, including my 22month son, enjoy soy a few times a week. And enjoy the benefits OF soy. By not having it every day and in every form (mostly avoiding the processed forms of soy- which are bad... junk food!)

btw- if soy really irks you, and you are really a vegetarian... than don't eat it. There are many many vegies out there that don't consume any soy!

regarding formula- is soy that much worse than regular formula?


----------



## civmom511 (Jan 7, 2005)

I am no longer a vegetarian (or maybe I should have more correctly said that I was a lacto-ovo vegetarian, or whatever the type is called that doesn't eat red meat, poultry, eggs, or dairy...my diet was about 95% veggies, fruits, grains and beans...I may have had seafood once or twice a month and soy almost daily, in the form of soymilk mostly). I eat all types of meat now, mostly organic grass pasture fed meat and I feel much healthier for it...I also eat high omega 3 eggs, but I consume only fermented dairy...such as yogurt, kefir, and some raw cheeses...I guess I just don't like milk. I grow my own organic veggies and some fruit and I always have, so I still eat plenty of those. I know that eliminating soy and eating meat again has made me healthier, I put the info. out there for people like me who were duped into thinking they were doing something healthy for themselves when they really weren't...I just want to educate, I am just presenting the facts that I have read, I have read lots of pro-soy stuff too...but this is what I know to be true and this is what has worked for me. There are a lot of people out there that foolishly think of soy as the #1 super health food, a lot of research has been done on soy that actually says quite the opposite and I just think people should hear this as well so they can honestly decide for themselves.

In regards to the formula issuse, you're right...all formula is bad, I know that now, but didn't know it a year ago when my son weaned. Now my son drinks organic raw milk from cows that eat only grass and hay (we buy it from the Amish in PA)...he loves it, and thrives on it.


----------



## fayking (Jun 28, 2004)

a vegetarian that eats any fish isnt a vegetarian of any description...
i eat soy a few times a week, which i believe is better for you than animal products, and better for the animals...


----------



## melissa17s (Aug 3, 2004)

Go do your research at multiple sources instead of relying on one individual. I have read the same thing over and over again on different websites, and the all point to Sally Fallon as their source. No other reputable source has come to the same come to the same conclusion. I think her sources are out of date and the research she used borders on unethical.
Not all of China has the same diet; it is regional just like here. When you average a huge country based on the culinary ingredient prevalent in some places but not others of that many people, the figures are bound to be lower and inconsistant with the norm. When I was in S'pore most of the Chinese there ate soy sauce and a variety of tofus and soymilk. We had to be careful of it because it does contain a chemical that irrates my fils gout. Interesting how Sally did not jump on that medically documented reason not to eat soy. Maybe because in most people, purines are beneficial and fight cancer. Just note that all those exciting recipes for brains and liver also contain high amounts of purine and can not be eaten by someone with gout as well.
We are vegetarians in my house. We eat soy. We are healthy, and not as spacey as we would like to be- I think that requires beer or other prohibited substances. I would opt for a soy burger over a hamburger or fish any day. At least it would not contain high amounts of lead or the potential for ecoli, samonila, etc. I do not think soy is the wonder food that some have latched on to, and I also think it is very important to have variety and rotate what you eat. I would go look at more research if I were you- I will compile a list for you.


----------



## dolphinkisser (Dec 26, 2003)

I haven't done all this tremendous research about soy but i am still going to continue to eat soybeans and drink soymilk based on my personal experience it has been a Godsent. The month i have a diet rich in soy, i have literally NO PMS and no cramping during menstruation whatsoever. The times i have been lax about having soy in my diet , i have had horrid cramps and i have rolled over. So i am going to enjoy my soy diet and live for the day and deal with all the 'problems' that these research studies say i will have when the time comes


----------



## Millie Ivy (Dec 8, 2001)

Civmom511 Just a couple of notes...

1- on some of what you stated, I agree with you. Alot of modern soy products are so processed, they are no better than any other junk food. And excessive amounts can be dangerous.

2- I myself cannot eat soy products because of an allergy or intolerance, I am not sure which it is. I have horrid intestinal cramping, diarreah, sinus problems, and more whenever I consume soy. Whether it be once a day or once a month. So even if soy in *any* amount was healthy, some people cannot rely on it for the benefits it can provide. (And alot of vegetarians don't rely on soy as a primary source of nutrients.)

3- (with my agreements in mind...) To come on this board and have that post as your first post on Mothering (or 2nd, I just see that you only have 5 posts now..) was probably not the most effective way to get your opinion across. THe women here don't know you, don't have any reason not to just dismiss your opinion as that of a stranger. A better way to produce a controversial argument would have been to wait until you had found some things you could agree on with people, or to see if anyone wanted to know about the possible dangers of soy. Just a thought. I just know I am instantly skeptical of a long fairly argumentative thread posted by a brand spankin new member...


----------



## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

civmom511, welcome to MDC!

There has been quite the discussion over soy in this forum multiple times before--do a search for "soy" and something like "bad" or "controversy" and see all the threads that come up. In general we all agree that processed soy is evil, and traditional fermented forms are best. Soy, just like any other legume, has both positive as well as negative effects.

I hear your guilt over your previous diet...hugs to you. I am right there too, you can join us ex-veg*ns and NT-foodies over on the NT/Traditional Foods Mamas threads. Here is the link to our active January thread: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=231870

Bellababe, I have to disagree with your statement "And alot of vegetarians don't rely on soy as a primary source of nutrients." IME I have seen many veg*ns who will have soy milk for breakfast either on cereal or in a coffee drink, soy cheese or soy meat analogue sandwich for lunch, more soy coffee drinks throughout the day, and tempeh, tofu, or more soy analogue for dinner. It's way too easy to buy the stuff at the store! And I keep seeing recommendations for veg*ns to drink soy milk and eat soy dogs to get their b12. So perhaps they are not relying on soy solely for its nutrient content, but it does constitute a large majority of many veg*n diets. (Please forgive me if I have misconstrued your statement, it's been a long morning.)


----------



## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

Mothering actually did an article on this a few months back...maybe 2 issues ago? There were a lot of reasons mothering mentioned why you should eliminate or reduce soy, especially in children's diets.


----------



## callmemama (May 7, 2002)

civmom511, here's an interesting counter-website to your arguments. To me, it makes more sense and has more scientific studies to back it up: www.drmcdougall.com - but to each his own. We all have to do our own research and follow our own hearts on this one.


----------



## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

toraji
Bellababe said:


> I have to agree. Even though there ARE vegans who don't eat soy, or only eat very little of it. Most of the groups promoting veganism (like PETA) are pushing a diet full of fake dairy and meat products (and Fritos
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## civmom511 (Jan 7, 2005)

I'm sorry, my sudden approach after so few posts was probably not the best way to go about it...I tend to be the kind of personality that when I discover something important, something where I feel I have been misled and have discovered the truth I really feel the need to tell others and everyone because I feel that there are probably others out there like me. I just wanted to get this information out to others, everything I posted comes from The Weston A Price Foundation, I didn't write it and I put up several links to their website on the post. You can read it, or disregard it or do whatever you want with it, I just wanted to put it out there because a lot of people don't know that soy is harmful and the affect it has on your body. My mother would be a perfect example of this...3 years ago, she decided to become Vegan, mostly to lose weight and to become "healthy"....for 2 years, the only things she ate were veggies, fruits, grains, legumes, and soy...she ate lots of soy and talked about it as the healthiest thing in the world and how great it was (I was in complete agreement with her at the time)...she ate the burgers and the nuggets and the cheese and the protein powder and the milk and all the stuff. My mom is 44 and a pretty healthy woman, she's about 25 pounds overweight but otherwise she is very healthy...just this past year, 2004, she found 4 tumors on her body...one on her skin, a subdermal lump...and 3 polyps in her colon. She had a huge kidney stone, and I mean huge...on her x-rays it looked about the size of a nickel...it was so huge she couldn't pass it and the doctors had to go in and remove it. She had a questionable mammogram, a thickening in one of her breasts. She was sick on and off most of the year, mostly with bronchitis and stuff...it was really odd for her to be this sick, she had always been very healhy...I mean she birthed and raised 4 kids, she was the type of mom where the whole family could come down with the flu and she'd never get it and she'd take care of all of us. So it was weird, very weird that so much should happen to her in just a year...and her and I now both believe it was the soy products, it's a known potent carcinogen especially in women cause it fools with your horomones, it has several anti-nutrients which blocks the absorption of a lot of the macro-minerals. I read several similiar accounts of the same sort of things happening to women who ate a lot of soy for long periods of time. I don't think it's just coincidence and neither does she.
The way of eating that my family and I follow is the way most societies have been sustained for thousands of year...we eat traditional natural organic whole foods. We, for the most part, don't consume commercial meat, eggs and especially milk. We buy our beef, chicken and lamb straight from the farmers and only those who pasture raise or allow their chickens free range. We buy only free range eggs and we drink raw milk and use raw milk products straight from the cow, but only from cows who are pasture raised and healthy...we buy our milk from an Amish family in PA (we also buy eggs from them, but were getting chicks this spring...I'm so excited about that), since commie maryland where I live has made raw milk illegal. Although we are looking into getting a cow this spring, hopefully we can start producing our own milk within a year or so. We organically grow a wide variety of veggies and some berries and a few peach trees and eat from that most of the year as I freeze a lot of it for use during the winter (I don't can, it destroys nutrients). We make our own natural delicious lacto-femented sauerkraut just like my german ancestors did for hundreds of years before me. We make other lacto-fermented veggies and drinks. We make whole grain bread from grain that we sprout and then grind ourselves, it really isn't as daunting or as difficult as it sounds and actually quite fun....this is the way I strive to eat and the way I nourish my family and the growing baby inside me (I am almost 6 months along with our second child). When you eat good, whole food, the way God intended food to be, new fangled man made things like soy food products kind of become a non-issue. When I say soy is bad, I say it and at the same time say there is a better way... At least, I know that this is the way for me and for my family and I just want to tell people about it and show them and carry on traditions that sustain us, and make us a community, and make us healthier and stronger.


----------



## veggie4ever (Oct 31, 2004)

Why do people who eat fish say they are vegetarian.
The only thing I agre with our staement is soy formula should not be given to babies, no formula should be given to babies.

I always find it interesting when people claiming to be vegetarian then they went back to meat are so much healthier.
Eating animal flesh is bad for you organic or not.

Sorry to sound harsh but am tired of hearing from meat eaters how bad soy is.


----------



## tboroson (Nov 19, 2002)

I am one of many folks who was once vegetarian and felt infinately healthier after going back to eating meat. I found it easier to maintain a healthy weight (or at least not gain more weight, which I did the entire time I was veg*an, which was, to varying degrees, about 13 years) I am less exhausted all the time, my skin is much much nicer, I have fewer cavities, I can concentrate better, I'm far better able to control my appetite. I am a happier, healthier person for it. And I know so many other people who say the same. Honestly, I've never heard a vegetarian in real life walk up to me and say s/he had never felt as healthy before... but I've heard it dozens of times from ex-veggies. (Yes, I've read people's testimonials online, I don't count those as being in my personal experience.)

Now, I agree that any food guru is one-sided. I find a lot I like in Weston A Price and Sally Fallon, but I don't treat them as gospel because I know they have an agenda like anybody.


----------



## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

IEIEIEIIEIEIEII! Weston Price- my ass!


----------



## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veggie4ever*
Why do people who eat fish say they are vegetarian.

I can never understand this either


----------



## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Quote:

IEIEIEIIEIEIEII! Weston Price- my ass!
The diet changed my life. I hope you veg*ns are able to be so for life. It didn't work out for me. I am finally over a vegan-diet-induced three year case of depression in pregnancy and postpartum.


----------



## cozymama (Apr 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veggie4ever*
The only thing I agre with our staement is soy formula should not be given to babies, no formula should be given to babies.

I always find it interesting when people claiming to be vegetarian then they went back to meat are so much healthier.
Eating animal flesh is bad for you organic or not.

Sorry to sound harsh but am tired of hearing from meat eaters how bad soy is.
































Anti-soy research is badly done. It is often (although not always) *NOT* peer-reviewed, based on anecdotal evidence (a la Weston Price), not highly regarded within the SCIENTIFIC community (not just a few people who serve on interest-group boards on the internet)..........honestly, as someone who is TRAINED to evaluate research, the Mothering article was terrible, just terrible. The research they cited was poorly done, they were quite over zealous in the conclusions they drew, etc. To me it just sounded like another attempt to bash soy formula. Ok, cool, I agree that no formula is ever desirable, but there are more accurate ways to make such a claim. Soy formula is bad not because it's *soy* but because it's *formula*.

The other place I feel some of these people (Price, Fasson) are correct is in bashing processed food.....but on the whole meat eaters consume WAY more processed food (not NTF ppl as I know y'all don't, but mainstream American mcD's folk) simply by proportion......I totally agree that processed vegetarian food is terrible. I think that fake meats often miss the benefits of whole foods (and the nutrition of pure soy) but that's not about soy, that about processed foods........I'm sorry to see vegetarian cuisine moing towards more processed stuff but that's not about soy, that's about American values about speed/consumption/ease/cost

Honestly alot of this sounds like people who are desperately reaching for ways to justify their own unhealthy (and perhaps unethical, depending on your beliefs) diet.

We eat whole foods and try to eliminate processed foods. The healthiest I've ever been (which is just me and totally anecdotal







) is when I was vegan. I'm now vegetarian and I see how eating animal products (which are not whole foods according to many) are hurting me. Even my very mainstream doctor noticed this. Same with my dad who has heart disease- drastic changes. Again, only a few people but enough to make me feel good about my veggie toddler!! (who has great teeth and is rarely sick







)

As for "commie Maryland"- I do think those laws re: raw milk are absurd, but remember, babies and kids have DIED because of drinking raw milk. I grew up in dairy country, surrounded by people who drank only raw milk and ate only homemade dairy products and every year kids died from pathogens that would have been killed in the process of pasteurization.......I don't think it's right to legislate what people can drink, but I can't agree that it's a perfect food either.


----------



## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gale Force*
The diet changed my life. I hope you veg*ns are able to be so for life. It didn't work out for me. I am finally over a vegan-diet-induced three year case of depression in pregnancy and postpartum.


Maybe it's that being a vegetariAN is not just my "diet"... it's my belief system and my way of life and part of my moral make-up. Killing to live...hmmmmmmmmmmmmm doesn't work for me!

MY "diet" has controled my cfs (chronic fatigue syndrome), my polycystic ovary syndrom, and a lot of the symptoms that go along w/ both those conditions. Even diabetic symptoms. I don't take one rx.... not one! I bled out once during a routine scope and lost 3/4 of my blood! To the amazement of all involved I didn't need a transfusion and was only anemiac for a week after surgery/recovery! ONE WEEK! Most patients who suffer such accidents take up to 6 months to not be anemiac! I could go on and on and on.... but I guess it's different strokes for different folks!


----------



## Millie Ivy (Dec 8, 2001)

mz_libbie22 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *toraji
> ...


----------



## Bookworm (Oct 6, 2004)

Anecdotal evidence annoys me, but since we are offering it on the meat-eating side, here's mine on the vegetarian side.

My whole life, I suffered from fatigue to the point that most afternoons I felt like I HAD to go to bed. I was sickly. Got the flu or a cold every year. I didn't have that gusto for life that enables us to do the things that wind up being the best things in life.

UNTIL... my husband suggested, a few years ago, that we give up meat for Lent. I'm not religious, but I said I'd do it with him, sure. Well, I couldn't believe how much better I felt. And I knew NOTHING about eating healthy. We are talking white flour, packaged goods that probably had hydrogenated oils, the whole nine yards. Still, even as unhealthy as my diet was, when I gave up meat, I started feeling so much better.

Since then, I have been on a road of learning more and more about nutrition. The better I eat, the better I feel, of course. And I don't rely heavily on tofu, either. We do eat some fermented soy products. But even at times in the past when I have relied heavily on soy, I still felt better than I ever, EVER did as a meat-eater.

I have accomplished things in my life since going vegetarian that would have been out of the question for me before - become a runner, built and opened a used bookstore, remodeled a house from top to bottom, worked jobs without fear of having to call in sick all the time, etc.

Like I said, I know this is anecdotal, but since we had the "I feel better as meat-eater" side, I thought I'd offer my vegetarian miracle story.

There is lots of money to be made in the food industry. Let's keep our wits about us and think about WHY particular people offer the "facts" that they do. Let's think about the fact that it makes good sense to eat vegetables, or, if your family needs it, meat that wasn't injected with hormones and antiobiotics and was humanely raised. It makes good sense to eat things that don't have a fancy package and a billionaire behind them. It makes good sense to eat things as they grew out of the ground, and are beautiful, and weren't sprayed with man-made chemicals, or fortified with preservatives. In other words, eat what nature provides - which in my mind, does not include an antibiotic steak in a restaurant, or an estrogen chicken breast from Wendy's.

And for me, that has changed my life! Yay!


----------



## Millie Ivy (Dec 8, 2001)

Ooh, very good Bookworm! I totally agree, and I AM a meat eater by tried and tested necessity. You said what I was thinking much better than I did, everyone needs different things. I seriously suffer on any other diet than what I do right now, which is lowfat, high nutrient whole foods..


----------



## melissa17s (Aug 3, 2004)

To the OP, I am sorry to hear about your families health concerns. I know it is nice to label problems, as it is helpful way of coping with them, but to blame soy for the issues your mom is suffering is an easy scape goat for a possibly multiple factors that can contribute to an individuals health. I am listing some links below, and the one with hoax in the site name addresses this issue. I do sincerely hope her health improves regardless of her dietary decisions.
lilhomegrownmama- I so agree with you about processed vegetarian foods.

I have some qualms with the research on soy presented by Weston Price. I aalso think they have an overly obviuos agenda of pushing meat and dairy. If any industry is suspect, look no further than meat and dairy. Start looking up the statistics of cancer or hormone disruption in relation to meat and dairy consumption.

http://web.aces.uiuc.edu/faq/faq.pdl?project_id=5

http://hoaxinfo.com/soya.htm

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache...oy+myths&hl=en

http://www.asaasc.com/myths.htm

http://www.soytoy.com/soyvey.html

http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2000/300_soy.html

http://www.vegsource.com/talk/soy/index.html


----------



## sleepless-in-texas (Dec 1, 2004)

My vegetarian friend was told by her doctor to avoid soy while pregnant because it would make the baby's penis small - I kid you not. He said soy does something to the hormones. I thought that was ridiculous until I found the same info elsewhere.
??
Glad my baby was a girl!


----------



## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vegiemom*
regarding formula- is soy that much worse than regular formula?

Yes, it is.

Babies do not yet have a matured blood-brain barrier. Meaning-whatever they are given in large amounts, unnaturally-can actually make deposits in the brain. Which is one reason why vaccinations are so potent and potentially harmful.
Soy is unusually hig in manganese-a trace mineral. It has been noted in one particular study(can't seem to find it right now-but Google it and I'm sur eyou'll find it-I'm in a hurry)that found workers in themanganese mines suffered depression, irrational behavior, anger problems, etc, etc because of overexposure to the mineral they were mining. It was also noted that infants given soy formula grew up to be kind of violent, or have issues wth that.
So, saying that- I drank tons of soymilk for years, and ate tofu. In fact, I ws a veggitarian for 5 or 6 years. But now that I have learned the effects of soy-which there are many- I do not drink it anymore. I eat tempeh on occasion.

I feel it is better to not put myself or my children at harm, given the facts.


----------



## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sleepless-in-texas*
My vegetarian friend was told by her doctor to avoid soy while pregnant because it would make the baby's penis small - I kid you not. He said soy does something to the hormones. I thought that was ridiculous until I found the same info elsewhere.
??
Glad my baby was a girl!









Ha ha :LOL I can relate!MIL was the worst to me about soy







.
I have since heeded some of her advice- but lets just say, my baby is..ahem..well enowed








More so than his non-soy-drinking-mom cousin, who is quite small









I guess I proved her wrong!But seriously, Soy does mess with hormones, and I feel so much better not drinking it. I feel much more stable.
I think people can say it is conspiracy theory and whatnot-but you can easily turn the tables and say that about the soy industry. I mean, you have this bean that can be touted as a "miracle bean". It is cheap, easy to produce products from in mass quantity-why not make big bucks off of it and fool the people. The ancient chinese knew better! And- the stir the pot more, edemame is not good for you at all. In fact I think it was recorded as unedible in ancient chinese writings.It wouldn't surprise me.

I think we need to take our blinders off and look at the real hazards in our health food stores as well as our local mainstream market.


----------



## callmemama (May 7, 2002)

It would be so nice if we could all celebrate our similarities instead of argue about our differences! Most of us on MDC recognize the importance of organic, whole foods - that's a big deal! And while I don't consume animal products, I have gotten some wonderful recipes from the NT people (my dh absolutely LOVES Xenabyte's ww tortilla recipe!). Am I too idealistic to hope we can share the positives of our different journeys/views of healthy eating?


----------



## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vegiemom*
Maybe it's that being a vegetariAN is not just my "diet"... it's my belief system and my way of life and part of my moral make-up. Killing to live...hmmmmmmmmmmmmm doesn't work for me!

Good for you that being a vegetariAN works for you, both ethically and physically. It didn't work for me or my family, and I am a bit weary of hearing that people like me "didn't try hard enough" or aren't ethically "committed" enough despite extraordinary evidence to the contrary. I find it very ironic that when I came forth with my health problems on such a "compassionate" diet, that these people on the same diet were the ones bashing me the hardest (but thankfully not all!). Apparently fellow humans don't deserve the same compassion as animals.

Vegiemom, I have singled you out because repeatedly, you continue to bash others who are questioning their veg*n diets because they are suffering health problems. Have you had your b12 and other nutrient levels checked lately? I am totally being serious. You have posted previously about your depression and feelings of being overwhelmed, and that coupled with your angry posts towards the veg*ns thinking of adding animal products has caused me to be concerned about your health.

For me, lacto-ovo vegetarianism would not work for me ethically because I feel that eggs and milk are in some ways worse than meat (because not all meat is factory farmed), and even if I were able to get past my philosophical reasonings on this, I would never use it as grounds to feel morally superior to other humans. If I wanted to be bashed about my beliefs, then I'd go hang out at Babycenter, not MDC.

We all are different, and no one diet works for all. <now where is that peace emoticon?>


----------



## melissa17s (Aug 3, 2004)

toraji, the op was able to express her belief. Accordding to civmom511, "When you eat good, whole food, the way God intended food to be, new fangled man made things like soy food products kind of become a non-issue." Why can't vegiemom counter with hers? Why are you making medical diagnosis of a singled out individual because it really lends nothing to this otherwise interesting debate. Please also note that I don't mind either way if you eat meat or not, and I don't think any one was criticising you for deciding to.


----------



## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

melissa17s, I have absolutely no problem with people expressing their opinions in a rational manner. But I have a very big problem with people bashing others for their beliefs without giving a reasonable explanation as to why their beliefs are incorrect.

I was being serious about getting nutritional levels checked. I had a MAJOR shift in my depression and anger when I started eating differently. So I thought that this might have been something that she'd not thought of. It was such a relief to realize that my grouchiness was something that I could control, and not embedded in my personality. I'm not telling her to eat meat, I'm saying, this may be something you may want to explore. Definitely not a medical diagnosis by any means, especially since I am no expert on these sorts of things.

BTW, I sent you a PM.


----------



## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Just FYI, anyone who is interested: One of the biggest contributing factors to my depression was extremely low levels of amino acids. The lab clinician was shocked at the results.







I had a custom supplement blended and felt better within about three days and better than I had in years within a week. That was Feb of this year. By Christmas I had gotten off of the supplement completely and now I am better than ever -- better than before the pregnancy and any other time in my life. It's fantastic. So my point is, if anyone reading this is concerned about deficiencies, there are tests for them and there could be some pretty quick results for you. Not every analysis would necessitate giving up a vegetarian diet either (and some would say none would), so it's not like you have to make that decision before getting tested. In this toxic and soil-depleted world, we should probably all have tests done regularly.


----------



## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Here's my amino acids story that I should update:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ids+depression


----------



## bebe luna (Nov 20, 2001)

wow, people sure get fiesty when it comes to food









regarding the soy issue:
my personal opinion is that some soy is okay. I do not think processed soy is good (fake meats, most soymilks, soy oils, etc)... occassional fermented soy or edamame should be fine for people who are not sensative or allergic to soy.

I was raised a vegetarian and later found after years of light headedness, fatigue, lack of motivation, etc that I do much much better eating a diet of whole foods that includes lots of lean protiens, especially organic meats... I also need a lot of green foods and fish oils or my energy plummets.

Just as others have already said, we all have unique dietary needs. Let's please be respectful and kind with eachother in regards to our unique needs. No One diet is the answer for Everyone!!

Some people thrive on a vegan diet, others become depleted... some people feel great eating meat, others suffer unless vegetarian... some people are prone to allergies, wether its dairy, soy, peanuts, shellfish, eggs, wheat, etc... or are just super sensative, to sweets, starches, caffiene, citrus, nightshades, spicy foods, etc...

About soy: it is from this earth, it is an abundant plant, I just cannot believe it is 100% bad. There is a reason it grows here.
I think it's been grossly overproduced and too often overprocessed... but I still believe a bit of soy in moderation is okay.


----------



## moss (Feb 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllyRae*
Mothering actually did an article on this a few months back...maybe 2 issues ago? There were a lot of reasons mothering mentioned why you should eliminate or reduce soy, especially in children's diets.

this is the soy article that mothering printed... http://www.mothering.com/articles/gr...soy_story.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
i like what susun weed has to say about soy.

Quote:

To summarize: traditional fermented soy products, especially when made with organic beans, are beneficial in the diet when combined with rice, sea foods, and fermented vegetables. The value of other soy products is questionable at best, disease causing at worst. The use of soy as a primary protein source is misguided.
http://www.zenzibar.com/Articles/issoysafe2.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
i didnt read the entire thread in depth, just skimmed it. Isnt a vegetarain who occasionally eats fish usually referred to as a pescatarian?


----------



## Benji'sMom (Sep 14, 2004)

_Myth: Phytoestrogens in soy foods can enhance mental ability.

Truth: A recent study found that women with the highest levels of estrogen in their blood had the lowest levels of cognitive function; In Japanese Americans tofu consumption in mid-life is associated with the occurrence of Alzheimer's disease in later life._
I just read an article that says something about 'bad soy' versus 'good soy'. Tofu, miso, and Tempeh are good, but other things are bad. Bad soy will put those plant estrogens in you and can even change your menstrual cycle, but good soy will stop the effects of Phytoestrogens and won't have the same negative effect. And as for soy formula, it's very bad because it's like giving a baby 5 birth control pills worth of estrogen every day. Let me see if I can find a link.....

ETA: http://www.mercola.com/2004/dec/4/soy_truth.htm


----------



## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moss*
Isnt a vegetarain who occasionally eats fish usually referred to as a pescatarian?

a vegetarian NEVER eats fish! Maybe someone who does eat fish and no other meat can call themselves a pescatarian if they want. But they cannot call themselves a vegetarian.


----------



## Rainbowbird (Jul 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leilalu*
Yes, it is.

Soy is unusually hig in manganese-a trace mineral. It has been noted in one particular study(can't seem to find it right now-but Google it and I'm sur eyou'll find it-I'm in a hurry)that found workers in themanganese mines suffered depression, irrational behavior, anger problems, etc, etc because of overexposure to the mineral they were mining. It was also noted that infants given soy formula grew up to be kind of violent, or have issues wth that.

I feel it is better to not put myself or my children at harm, given the facts.

Don't have the link right now, but the only study that was performed in a scientific manner and published some years ago on babies fed soy formula found no differences in babies fed soy, except that some girls had longer menstrual periods, but that was even statistically insignificant.

My son was on soy and I did a lot of research at the time. If I had found anything conclusive about the soy being specifically harmful, I would have switched formulas.

I won't go into the whole formula debate here, would rather NOT have had him on formula, period.


----------



## Oh the Irony (Dec 14, 2003)

I was a vegetarian for 16 years. My accupuncturist recommended added some red meat when I was pregnant. I did and have occasionally had it ever since. I recently have been reading Nourshing Traditions and it resonated with me (well, mostly! I don't think I'm ready for organ meats and such)

It is just like most things--you can find research to back up your opinions. I can read both sides, but can I REALLY know??? I don't think so. Our knowledge of how things work is really marginal IMO. Every generation thinks we know so much--but we are really ignorant as hell.

I find following my instincts and moderation are good things.

And if I ever get killed by an animal, I hope I get eaten...


----------



## DesireeH (Mar 22, 2003)

In my teenage years I was a vegetarian for 5 years. But I wasnt really a vegetarian, I was a carbatarian. I just ate crap foods. Anything non meat. I really think I messed myself up but it was because I did it WRONG. I ate bagels, yogurt (not the plain probiotic stuff, the mainstream crap), white pasta, stuff that is bad for you.

I have been on both ends of the spectrum. I did low carbs a few times in the last few years. I lost weight but I couldnt take a dump without bleeding and crying. My breath was skank, etc. I do think eating the RIGHT kind of carbs and limiting bad carbs is still the way to go. 6 weeks ago I went back to vegetarianism. I can finally go to the bathroom like a normal person without pain! We also do not use much soy at all. We eat tofu every once in a while (once in the past 6 weeks). My blood sugar has actually been stable and almost low the whole time which is a first for me. My diet consists of alot of beans/lentils/whole wheats/vegetables/fruits.

Soy formula scares me too but so does cow formula. Human milk for human babies.

I was just reading a few eat to beat cancer type books and they all suggest really limiting meat or cutting it out completely. A few studies showed that vegetarians were less likely to get cancer. When I was on the Hoxsey diet a few years back (for tumors/cancer, although I was low carbing then but it wasnt from that, it was from fertility drugs) all red meat was not allowed and fish and chicken were only allowed 2 times a week.

Your mother is also in that age range for the contaminated polio vaccine from the 50's and 60's (1955-1963) which can also lead to cancer/tumors (SV40). There are so many other factors that can come into play besides soy (although if you are eating it all the time and overdoing it, I am sure it can cause problems.)


----------



## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sleepless-in-texas*
My vegetarian friend was told by her doctor to avoid soy while pregnant because it would make the baby's penis small - I kid you not. He said soy does something to the hormones. I thought that was ridiculous until I found the same info elsewhere.
??
Glad my baby was a girl!









See?? You ate so much soy that your son turned into a girl!!!!










I ate quite a bit of soy while pregnant with ds, and he's on the "larger end of normal" in that regard (we had quite an interesting discussion with the Mohel after my son's Bris. Never thought I'd be discussing penis size with a Rabbi!!)

I think genetics has a lot more to do with size than diet.

Back to the OQ- I've found that a high-soy diet doesn't work well for me. I went off dairy about a year ago, replacing it with lots of soy- and it seriously messed up my menstrual cycles. I think that my overconsumption of processed soy foods may have contributed to my current lack of tolerance for even naturally fermented soy products.

I now have moderate amounts of eggs and goat milk daily, meat or poultry about once a week, and a diet based on whole plant foods the rest of the time. I prepare a lot of rice, beans, and veggies- tonight's dinner (lentil stew with butternut squash and potatoes) is in the crock pot. I serve juices to my children but I don't tolerate the sugar very well. Any "goodies" the kids have are free from artificial colors, flavors, and preservatives.


----------



## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

Actually the effects of too much soy during pregnancy on boy babies are more along the lines of infertility and other problems, not "small penises."


----------



## kimmysue2 (Feb 26, 2003)

kind of. I get all the time "Oh you a vegetarian you must eat fish". Ah no then I would not be a vegetarian.

As for the soy being bad yes eating to much of it or anything is not good for you.


----------



## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Too much of anything is not a great idea.
Food is powerful stuff! If your eating what doesn't agree with your body it'll mess you up!
I've been vegetarian for 12 years-vegan for 3 or 4. I also have spent the last 25 years or so tired all of the time, severe depression, extreme pain in my body...the works. I tried adding meat to my diet once or twice, didn't seem to help, I had been tested for every thing ( chronic fatigue, fibromayalsia,hypothyroid, Lyme disease, Lupus etc...) so...after years and years of this, I found out I'm allergic to quite a few foods. Wheat and Soy being the biggest culprits. Since giving up all of my allergic foods, I feel awesome!!! Never better in my whole life. AND I'm still vegan which makes me really happy.

My point is SOY IS bad for you if you're someone who has a bad reaction to it, same way people allergic to dairy or nuts don't eat those(plus eating a whole bunch of that processes fake meat makes me suspicious) Different people find that different diets put them at their best. Being vegetarian/vegan isn't for everyone (of course I wish it was







). But I think what's most important is to be in touch with how your body reacts to different food, and recognize that food for many people plays a bigger role than most people think.


----------



## Wildcrafter (Mar 11, 2003)

Re: quote -
"I have some qualms with the research on soy presented by Weston Price. I aalso think they have an overly obviuos agenda of pushing meat and dairy."

I agree that the meat and dairy industry is huge in this country. However, these are not the industries that the Weston Price info is gearing towards. Commercial meat and dairy in this country is very unhealthy - full of colors, nitrates, hormones, pesticides, need I go on? I haven't found one bit of Price or Fallon info that supports these industries.

As vegetarians for 12 years, my sister, her daughter, and I both discovered a few years back common sense info on organic pasture raised meats, fermented foods (not soy) and homemade yogurt, raw milk etc. All of us are healthier because of adding these foods to a high veggie/raw food diet. But I still believe other diets are perfectly healthy for other people. For one to assume that what they eat is the only way is ridiculous.

Vegiemom, how do you feel about native communities living in Alaska or northern Canada whose lives depend on whales and other fish? Do you recommend they introduce soy instead? Do you understand that animal fat keeps people warm in cold climates? Do you consider Native Americans who depended on fish for their sustenance (as in my area before their rivers were dammed) people who lived by killing?


----------



## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Wildcrafter*
Re: quote -
Vegiemom, how do you feel about native communities living in Alaska or northern Canada whose lives depend on whales and other fish? Do you recommend they introduce soy instead? Do you understand that animal fat keeps people warm in cold climates? Do you consider Native Americans who depended on fish for their sustenance (as in my area before their rivers were dammed) people who lived by killing?

**Hmmmmmmm, I guess I feel blessed that I'm not one of those people living there!







But, also, in this day and age one doesn't need to depend on blubber to keep oneself warm (there's clothing made to cover extreeeeeeme temps). BUT I also do understand that others may believe that murdering animals IS NECASSARY to live (like my father the hunter







) and I appreciate that it takes all kinds of folks to keep this world going, with all kinds of different beliefs, ignorances and morals. I just wish that these hunter-types would take a stand against huge factory farming and animal abuse (my father hasn't bought meat in a store for 40 years- yet he does hunt his own meat and raise his own beef....). As far as native americans fishing....hmmmmmm.... I'm not buying it. They have every oppertunity to make other choices. Am I making any sense here? I'm suffering from an upper respritory infection and feel like crap, so I'm sorry for the babble!


----------



## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

toraji said:


> Vegiemom, I have singled you out because repeatedly, you continue to bash others who are questioning their veg*n diets because they are suffering health problems. Have you had your b12 and other nutrient levels checked lately? I am totally being serious. You have posted previously about your depression and feelings of being overwhelmed, and that coupled with your angry posts towards the veg*ns thinking of adding animal products has caused me to be concerned about your health.
> 
> **Yes, I have had them checked. Since I have cfs I do have EVERYTHING checked every other year or so for the last 16 years. THat's not an issue.
> 
> ...


----------



## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vegiemom*
But, also, in this day and age one doesn't need to depend on blubber to keep oneself warm (there's clothing made to cover extreeeeeeme temps).









I don't think you have considered the native Inuit people of Northern Canada.

They kill and use the entire animal for different uses including clothing.

They do not have access nor the funds for technical gear for -75 degree celcius weather with a windchill of about -120 degrees. Plus most gear wouldn't handle those situations anyway.

Have you experienced weather such as the above. I have, thus I talk from a point of reference.

Plus it is the fat of the fish that enables these people to endure the darkness of the winter.

Are you aware that the north only gets about 60 minutes of light not sun per day in the winter. Not a source of Vitamin D at all.

Thus their diet is designed to keep them healthy.


----------



## ChristaN (Feb 14, 2003)

Do we really have to do this _again_ ? I know that it is supposedly only about soy, but these anti-soy discussions always turn into how a veg*n diet is going to make you sick. I could post a thread with a big exclamation point at the beginning stating, "Meat is bad for you, Meat is bad for your children" and then rattle off a bunch of studies about how you are killing your kids by feeding them meat. I could then claim that I am not trying to tell you it is bad to be an omnivore, just that you shouldn't rely so much on meat.

I might honestly believe that, but I don't post such a thread b/c it is RUDE . This is not a vegetarian discussion board & I try hard not to bash non-vegetarian diets. I really wish that omnis would do the same. As much as this is not a vegetarian discussion board, it is also not only an omni discussion board. Nowhere in the purpose of this board does it say that it is devoted to promoting a diet rich in animal products or helping people recover from 'deficient' vegetarian diets.

Some of you think that soy is the root of all health problems. Fine. Keep it to yourself or discuss it on a WAPF board, but please stop imposing your anti-veg views on the veg*ns who come here as well. I know that there are some of you who smugly think that we will get sick & find out soon enough how bad our diets are. I'm not sick. I haven't gotten sick in 16 years on a vegan diet. I eat soy, albeit not in every meal. My children are not sick and, as a mom, I am offended by insinuations that I am harming my children especially when poorly done research is all that backs it up.

Re the colon polyps that the original poster mentions her mother having, my dh has also had polyps removed as have all of his siblings. None of them (my dh included) is vegetarian and other than my dh who eats some soy, none of the siblings eats any soy. Polyps are much more highly associated with low fiber diets, consumption of animal products (sorry!) & a genetic tendency to develop polyps. Also, they almost always take a few years to develop, at least. It is quite likely that your mother was growing polyps long before she ever began eating soy, but they weren't detected until they became large enough. My dh's GI doc told him that the polyp he had removed a few years ago was probably there for 5-10 years.


----------



## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ChristaN*
Do we really have to do this _again_ ? I know that it is supposedly only about soy, but these anti-soy discussions always turn into how a veg*n diet is going to make you sick.


When did anyone say that??


----------



## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain mom*
I don't think you have considered the native Inuit people of Northern Canada.

They kill and use the entire animal for different uses including clothing.

They do not have access nor the funds for technical gear for -75 degree celcius weather with a windchill of about -120 degrees. Plus most gear wouldn't handle those situations anyway.

Have you experienced weather such as the above. I have, thus I talk from a point of reference.

Plus it is the fat of the fish that enables these people to endure the darkness of the winter.

Are you aware that the north only gets about 60 minutes of light not sun per day in the winter. Not a source of Vitamin D at all.

Thus their diet is designed to keep them healthy.


ackkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk... Okay, do they realize that other people live differently or are they totally ignorant to the rest of the world? If they are aware of their options... than they can make different choices (ie- what they where, where they live, etc etc etc). IF they are simply unaware that any other options exiist.... than maybe they need some education there! I WAS living in Colorado but didn't like the lifestyle, the mountains, etc. So, I MOVED!


----------



## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

I really don't understand the tone or direction of your post, Vegiemom. I was wanting to point out that the location of a person, ie the climate etc directly can affect the way one is perdisposed to eat. Inuit need animal sourced foods, their bodies are physiologically designed this way in order to handle the climate in which they live.

Hmmmmm


----------



## Kristina (Oct 31, 2002)

I have never been a big fan of soy products. To the OP, good for you to do so much research and make a strong conviction against something you feel to be harmful. Yea, this is a big contrivercy (sp?), but so is everythingelse on this whole forum! Some of us choose to do things that mainstream people drop their jaws to. I support you for taking your stand.


----------



## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

I reread you post again Vegiemom and I get the strongest inclination that you think that the way the Inuit live is below you.

I am sure some love living where they are, some don't, some don't know anybetter, some do. Quite frankly that is sooo irrelevant.

I wanted to try to open up some dialouge about culture, climate, demographic etc.

If an Inuit or First Nation blooded person was to adopt a Veg*n diet it would be horendously unhealthy for them.


----------



## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain mom*
I really don't understand the tone or direction of your post, Vegiemom. I was wanting to point out that the location of a person, ie the climate etc directly can affect the way one is perdisposed to eat. Inuit need animal sourced foods, their bodies are physiologically designed this way in order to handle the climate in which they live.

Hmmmmm

Really? So, if an Inuit person were to up and move to some place where whale wasn't available (or whatever...) they would just shrivle up and die? I cannot imagine that an Inuit person is physically different than any other person! That's kind of a racist thing to believe unless it's true.... anyone?


----------



## Kristina (Oct 31, 2002)

opps, double post


----------



## ChristaN (Feb 14, 2003)

Quote:

When did anyone say that??
The following quotes, from this thread, kind of go that way in my mind:

Quote:

Dietary cholesterol contributes to the strength of the intestinal wall and helps babies and children develop a healthy brain and nervous system.
i.e. - kids need cholesterol (found only in animal products)

Quote:

Eggs are nature's perfect food, providing excellent protein, the gamut of nutrients and important fatty acids that contribute to the health of the brain and nervous system. Americans had less heart disease when they ate more eggs. Egg substitutes cause rapid death in test animals.
i.e - feed your kids eggs (vegan substitutes cause "rapid death")

Quote:

30% calories as fat is too low for most people, leading to low blood sugar and fatigue. Traditional diets contained 40% to 80% of calories as healthy fats, mostly of animal origin.
i.e. - diets lacking in animal fats lead to low blood sugar & fatigue

Quote:

Most of the groups promoting veganism (like PETA) are pushing a diet full of fake dairy and meat products (and Fritos ) in their pamphlets. So, there are alot of new vegans who are relying on these processed foods to maintain their lifestyle. I found it impossible to be vegan after deciding to go off of soy.
Sorry, you may not have meant it this way, but this comes across to me as, 'vegan diets are usually full of Fritos & crap food & it is basically impossible for most people to be vegan unless they eat a lot of soy.'

Quote:

The way of eating that my family and I follow is the way most societies have been sustained for thousands of year...we eat traditional natural organic whole foods...When you eat good, whole food, the way God intended food to be, new fangled man made things like soy food products kind of become a non-issue.
These discussions of diets that have "sustained populations for generations" always smack of 'other diets are not proven to sustain people & my diet it superior' and even 'God wants us to eat meat,' which I find personally very offensive. Maybe that is b/c my six year old has actually had children in her classes tell her that God wants her to eat meat.

Quote:

Honestly, I've never heard a vegetarian in real life walk up to me and say s/he had never felt as healthy before... but I've heard it dozens of times from ex-veggies.

Quote:

I am finally over a vegan-diet-induced three year case of depression in pregnancy and postpartum.
i.e. - vegan diets are in some way deficient & cause depression, etc.

I'm sure there's more, but I don't have time to go through the rest of the thread. I apologize for quoting those of you who I did quote here, but I wanted to point out where I feel like vegi diets are getting bashed in response to Mz_Libbie's question.


----------



## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Vegiemom, Its called anthropology not racism. C'Mon certainly you have heard about how culture and demographic affect your predispostion to eating capablities?

You should really check out some David Sukuki.


----------



## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mariah101*
Don't have the link right now, but the only study that was performed in a scientific manner and published some years ago on babies fed soy formula found no differences in babies fed soy, except that some girls had longer menstrual periods, but that was even statistically insignificant.

My son was on soy and I did a lot of research at the time. If I had found anything conclusive about the soy being specifically harmful, I would have switched formulas.

I won't go into the whole formula debate here, would rather NOT have had him on formula, period.

Well, It depends on what you read.If you simply google it, you can bring up a whole page at least of what is wrong with soy.
I understand your not wanting to use formula at all--however, it doesn't mean soy isn't potentially harmful. I really regeret all the soymilk I drank now.
And while it would be very difficult to completely give up soy in any form- I try my best.
Given the facts I have to make a wise descision for myself and my children.


----------



## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

If I am interpreting vegiemom correctly, the argument is that vegetarianism is the higher value so if you are living in a climate where it is not possible, you should move.


----------



## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vegiemom*
Really? So, if an Inuit person were to up and move to some place where whale wasn't available (or whatever...) they would just shrivle up and die? I cannot imagine that an Inuit person is physically different than any other person! That's kind of a racist thing to believe unless it's true.... anyone?

I just wanted to quote this so it won't get lost.

Again it isn't racism, its anthropology, and yes someone with Inuit blood is very very different physiologically than someone, lets say, from South America.

Its evolution baby...


----------



## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mz_libbie22*
Actually the effects of too much soy during pregnancy on boy babies are more along the lines of infertility and other problems, not "small penises."

Actually, MIL was wondering if his larger size compared to his small cousin was from soy








She had read somewhere that it can be a cause of deformity for little boys.
Gotta love worrying MIL


----------



## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Quote:

I just wanted to quote this so it won't get lost.
good idea


----------



## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain mom*
I reread you post again Vegiemom and I get the strongest inclination that you think that the way the Inuit live is below you.

**Not true. I would think of them like I think of anyone else, from anywhere else. With the ability to change/grow/think. With the ability to live however they want! Are you really saying that an inuit would not survive anywhere where fish isn't available? I come from a long line of farmers. They've been doing it since before coming to this country. Any one of them will say that they cannot survive without meat. I'm a vegetarian and I've been a vegan for a long period of time and I'm here to tell ya I'm doing fine.!

I am sure some love living where they are, some don't, some don't know anybetter, some do. Quite frankly that is sooo irrelevant.

* I don't think it's irrevelant! I couldn't breathe and suffered from living at high altitude... so I moved!

I wanted to try to open up some dialouge about culture, climate, demographic etc.

.

I think we've gone WAAAAY off topic anyway! BUT that idea IS interesting for sure. The idea that different folks from different areas require (or I should say strongly desire) different things. Maybe a new thread on that subject?

ps- just wanted to let you know that I responded to your quote WITHIN the quote box!


----------



## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain mom*
Vegiemom, Its called anthropology not racism. C'Mon certainly you have heard about how culture and demographic affect your predispostion to eating capablities?

You should really check out some David Sukuki.










So, the Inuit are anatomically different? If that's the casel, if when torn apart their make-up is not the same as eveyrone elses, then SURE I could believe they'd not survive on a meat-free diet.


----------



## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vegiemom*
ackkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk... Okay, do they realize that other people live differently or are they totally ignorant to the rest of the world? If they are aware of their options... than they can make different choices (ie- what they where, where they live, etc etc etc). IF they are simply unaware that any other options exiist.... than maybe they need some education there!


So people who care about their cultural traditions and way of life are ignorant huh? Maybe some native people DON'T WANT to conform to your idea of what's acceptable. Why exactly do you feel that you know what's better for them? Seems to me that the more people move away from their traditional way of eating the more unhealthy they become. Do you actually believe that the Eskimos haven't physically adapted to eating lots of fish and seal meat? Why should they be encouraged to avoid foods that are a part of their traditional diets??


----------



## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vegiemom*
So, the Inuit are anatomically different? If that's the casel, if when torn apart their make-up is not the same as eveyrone elses, then SURE I could believe they'd not survive on a meat-free diet.

Think of it this way: if you moved up there, you would have a hard time following your current diet. If they moved out of such a harsh climate, their needs would change.


----------



## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gale Force*
If I am interpreting vegiemom correctly, the argument is that vegetarianism is the higher value so if you are living in a climate where it is not possible, you should move.

Yah, I think! If one doesn't WANT to kill another being to eat... then one (in this day and in this age...) has the ability to MOVE. To make different choices and provide different options for ones self.


----------



## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gale Force*
Think of it this way: if you moved up there, you would have a hard time following your current diet. If they moved out of such a harsh climate, their needs would change.

Right! I'm in agreement. And that's WHY I wouldn't move there!


----------



## Oh the Irony (Dec 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vegiemom*
ackkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk... Okay, do they realize that other people live differently or are they totally ignorant to the rest of the world? If they are aware of their options... than they can make different choices (ie- what they where, where they live, etc etc etc). IF they are simply unaware that any other options exiist.... than maybe they need some education there! I WAS living in Colorado but didn't like the lifestyle, the mountains, etc. So, I MOVED!









nak. you would actually expect a native population to give up their culture???
i call that racism!!


----------



## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

I thought I had your argument right. Just wanted to make sure.


----------



## Oh the Irony (Dec 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mz_libbie22*
So people who care about their cultural traditions and way of life are ignorant huh? Maybe some native people DON'T WANT to conform to your idea of what's acceptable. Why exactly do you feel that you know what's better for them? Seems to me that the more people move away from their traditional way of eating the more unhealthy they become. Do you actually believe that the Eskimos haven't physically adapted to eating lots of fish and seal meat? Why should they be encouraged to avoid foods that are a part of their traditional diets??


----------



## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

"The following quotes, from this thread, kind of go that way in my mind:

Quote:
Dietary cholesterol contributes to the strength of the intestinal wall and helps babies and children develop a healthy brain and nervous system.

i.e. - kids need cholesterol (found only in animal products)"

****Yes, everyone needs cholesterol. That's not an insult, that's a biological fact. Some people's bodies don't produce enough of it on their own, so they would have a pretty hard time on a vegan diet.

"Quote:
Eggs are nature's perfect food, providing excellent protein, the gamut of nutrients and important fatty acids that contribute to the health of the brain and nervous system. Americans had less heart disease when they ate more eggs. Egg substitutes cause rapid death in test animals.

i.e - feed your kids eggs (vegan substitutes cause "rapid death")"

****Egg substitute* does not equal *vegan substitute*. They're talking about egg white or powdered egg substitutes that are made for people looking to avoid cholesterol, not vegan substitutes for eggs in baked goods, which would include ground flax seeds mixed in water (hardly unhealthy).

"Quote:
30% calories as fat is too low for most people, leading to low blood sugar and fatigue. Traditional diets contained 40% to 80% of calories as healthy fats, mostly of animal origin.

i.e. - diets lacking in animal fats lead to low blood sugar & fatigue"

*****Yeah, for alot of people they probably would. That's not an insult.

"Quote:
Most of the groups promoting veganism (like PETA) are pushing a diet full of fake dairy and meat products (and Fritos ) in their pamphlets. So, there are alot of new vegans who are relying on these processed foods to maintain their lifestyle. I found it impossible to be vegan after deciding to go off of soy.

Sorry, you may not have meant it this way, but this comes across to me as, 'vegan diets are usually full of Fritos & crap food & it is basically impossible for most people to be vegan unless they eat a lot of soy.'

****Um, yeah I also said TWICE in that post that there are vegans out there who do fine without any soy. I never meant to imply that vegan diets are "full of Fritos", I said that some promoters of veganism are using fake meats/dairy and vegan junk foods to make veganism seem less restrictive. I think this could cause alot of new vegans, especially teens and college age kids, to rely on lots of junk food instead of whole foods.

"Quote:
The way of eating that my family and I follow is the way most societies have been sustained for thousands of year...we eat traditional natural organic whole foods...When you eat good, whole food, the way God intended food to be, new fangled man made things like soy food products kind of become a non-issue."

****Okay, I'm pretty sure this is the WP site quote, so I should mention that they are talking about ALL processed food, not just Boca Burgers. WP and Sally Fannon are NOT as anti-soy as you think. They are simply anti-processed food. If you read Nourishing Traditions you'd find recipes using tofu and miso and even a veggie lentil-pecan burger recipe.

"Quote:
I am finally over a vegan-diet-induced three year case of depression in pregnancy and postpartum.

i.e. - vegan diets are in some way deficient & cause depression, etc."

****So, it's not possible for some people to become unhealthy on a vegan diet? Or is it just your opinion that if they do, they shouldn't be allowed to discuss it here?

"These discussions of diets that have "sustained populations for generations" always smack of 'other diets are not proven to sustain people & my diet it superior' and even 'God wants us to eat meat,' which I find personally very offensive. Maybe that is b/c my six year old has actually had children in her classes tell her that God wants her to eat meat."

****Eww, if anyone said that here I'd throw a fit. BUT no one has said anything to that effect (IMO) so I think you are being a little overly sensitive. I think people should be able to discuss their experiences on different types of diets freely here. I also don't think that the ex-veg people here believe vegetarianism is unhealthy for everyone, just *them*.


----------



## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vegiemom*
**Eggs? How are they inhumane if you have your own chickens or get them from a small hen-owner with a dozen chickens and no rooster? I do agree wiht you about dairy- and I'm ashamed that I do consume it occasionally and in small quantities. I'm sure it's a black cloud following me and I accept any beatings a vegan may want to give me for consuming dairy...







:

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Where are those lovely laying hens coming from? They come from a hatchery. And for every female layer, a male chick is born. What happens to those male chicks? It's death for the ones that don't get bought to be roosters. I have never met anyone who caught a wild chicken to start a home flock. And if you get your chickens from someone who is breeding their own chickens, then they obviously need a rooster. At any rate, the source is "dirty".

Philosophically, a chicken is enslaved to its owner and stuck in a laying cycle. At best it is a pet. Think of it this way: which has the better life, a deer running in the wild, enjoying life as it is meant to be as an animal, or a domesticated chicken, bred specifically to produce food for humans and be docile, to give up her eggs willingly, hanging out in a fenced perimeter/coop? How is that in any way a natural animal life?


----------



## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vegiemom*
ackkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk... Okay, do they realize that other people live differently or are they totally ignorant to the rest of the world? If they are aware of their options... than they can make different choices (ie- what they where, where they live, etc etc etc). IF they are simply unaware that any other options exiist.... than maybe they need some education there! I WAS living in Colorado but didn't like the lifestyle, the mountains, etc. So, I MOVED!









Let them eat cake.


----------



## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gale Force*
The diet changed my life. I hope you veg*ns are able to be so for life. It didn't work out for me. I am finally over a vegan-diet-induced three year case of depression in pregnancy and postpartum.

HI! I'm a vegetarian. Have been one all my life and don't see that ever changing. My parents were vegetarians before I was born and still are. My grandmother hardly ate any meat and was raised by a vegetarian father. I come from a long line of vegetarians starting with my great grandfather. I am extremely healthy. I have 4 extremely healthy vegetarian siblings and between the 5 of us, we have 12 beautiful and healthy vegetarian children. I can't imagine that any of us will ever quit being vegetarians.


----------



## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *toraji*
Let them eat cake.

ROTFLMAO

Sorry. Couldn't hold it in.

Still laughing.


----------



## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

It's nice to meet you, kavamamakava.


----------



## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sleepless-in-texas*
My vegetarian friend was told by her doctor to avoid soy while pregnant because it would make the baby's penis small - I kid you not. He said soy does something to the hormones. I thought that was ridiculous until I found the same info elsewhere.
??
Glad my baby was a girl!









I haven't read the whole thread so maybe this has been mentioned, but I have read that excess soy during pregnancy can contribute to the development of hypospadius (where the opening for pee is not at the tip) in a baby boy's penis


----------



## ChristaN (Feb 14, 2003)

Quote:

I also don't think that the ex-veg people here believe vegetarianism is unhealthy for everyone, just *them*.
This may be the case for some ex-veg*ns, but not all who post here. Gale Force has stated in other threads that vegan diets, in particular, are unnatural & unhealthy for _everyone_. Please do correct me if you feel that I am wrong, Gale Force.


----------



## ChristaN (Feb 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mz_libbie22*
"Quote:
The way of eating that my family and I follow is the way most societies have been sustained for thousands of year...we eat traditional natural organic whole foods...When you eat good, whole food, the way God intended food to be, new fangled man made things like soy food products kind of become a non-issue."

****Okay, I'm pretty sure this is the WP site quote, so I should mention that they are talking about ALL processed food, not just Boca Burgers. WP and Sally Fannon are NOT as anti-soy as you think. They are simply anti-processed food. If you read Nourishing Traditions you'd find recipes using tofu and miso and even a veggie lentil-pecan burger recipe.

Sorry that I did not attribute all of the quotes to the individuals who posted them originally. This quote actually came from the OP. Unless she copied it verbatim from the WAPF site, I took it to be her's. "When you eat good, whole food, the way God intended food to be..." (which she has already described as not being vegetarian) is pretty clearly to me a statement of belief that God intended us to eat how she eats (NT/WAPF/however you want to label it, but not vegetarian).

Quote:

Quote:
Dietary cholesterol contributes to the strength of the intestinal wall and helps babies and children develop a healthy brain and nervous system.

i.e. - kids need cholesterol (found only in animal products)"

****Yes, everyone needs cholesterol. That's not an insult, that's a biological fact. Some people's bodies don't produce enough of it on their own, so they would have a pretty hard time on a vegan diet.
My point here was not to dismiss the fact the our bodies need some cholesterol circulating, but to take issue with the "need" for "*dietary* cholesterol." She/WAPF stated that *dietary* cholesterol was needed for children to develop healthy brains & nervous systems. Obviously vegan children are not getting dietary cholesterol &, so according to this post, should have unhealthy brains and/or nervous systems. Sorry, but as a vegan parent that insults me.


----------



## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Quote:

This may be the case for some ex-veg*ns, but not all who post here. Gale Force has stated in other threads that vegan diets, in particular, are unnatural & unhealthy for everyone. Please do correct me if you feel that I am wrong, Gale Force.
If you ask me directly, I'll lay it on you, but I don't run around trying to make people feel bad.

And like I've said to you before Christa, you cannot take all of this personally. There are parts of our dietary choices that are not compatible. We are not going to agree on those things. Just because I state my opinion about a certain food does not mean that I am sitting at home thinking about you or any other poster who might eat it. And you can scream from the hilltops that omni diets are bad. I don't care how you feel about it. It will not hurt my feelings.


----------



## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

And since I am about to pick up my guys down the road so they don't have to navigate the snow without an AWD, and since Christa outed me as a fanatic and meanie, I'll tell you guys that I highly recommend that you read Weston Price's book Nutrition and Physical Degeneration. It is not an easy read in vocabularly or in terms of organization, but it has powerful findings, powerful really because of the strong research design that underlies it (a design that, unfortunately, is not as explicit as I would hope). Should I ever teach a class in research design, I will use this book to make some key points about testing hypotheses. I also think it would be a great service to the community for someone to rewrite the whole thing to make it more accessible and make clear the structure of the design.


----------



## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wolfmama*
nak. you would actually expect a native population to give up their culture???
i call that racism!!

LOL. It's american culture to formula feed... and I would hope WE WOULD GIVE THAT UP!!! I'm just sayin' that if one didn't want to kill to live one wouldn't have too....









change is usually good!


----------



## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *toraji*
Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Where are those lovely laying hens coming from? They come from a hatchery. And for every female layer, a male chick is born. What happens to those male chicks? It's death for the ones that don't get bought to be roosters. I have never met anyone who caught a wild chicken to start a home flock. And if you get your chickens from someone who is breeding their own chickens, then they obviously need a rooster. At any rate, the source is "dirty".

Philosophically, a chicken is enslaved to its owner and stuck in a laying cycle. At best it is a pet. Think of it this way: which has the better life, a deer running in the wild, enjoying life as it is meant to be as an animal, or a domesticated chicken, bred specifically to produce food for humans and be docile, to give up her eggs willingly, hanging out in a fenced perimeter/coop? How is that in any way a natural animal life?

all the chickens I know live the life of riley! They are happy and healthy and loved and they show that love right back.


----------



## mz_libbie22 (Nov 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ChristaN*

My point here was not to dismiss the fact the our bodies need some cholesterol circulating, but to take issue with the "need" for "*dietary* cholesterol." She/WAPF stated that *dietary* cholesterol was needed for children to develop healthy brains & nervous systems. Obviously vegan children are not getting dietary cholesterol &, so according to this post, should have unhealthy brains and/or nervous systems. Sorry, but as a vegan parent that insults me.


Well, if they're breastfeeding they're getting cholesterol. Most people just assume if it's in breastmilk, then it's something young children need but anyway...

I still say you're being overly sensitive. People have the right to post info on nutrition here. Just because you don't agree with the information, that doesn't make the poster offensive or rude.


----------



## Jane (May 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vegiemom*
LOL. It's american culture to formula feed... and I would hope WE WOULD GIVE THAT UP!!! I'm just sayin' that if one didn't want to kill to live one wouldn't have too....









change is usually good!

Now you're going to get all the Native mamas in here to complain. Can I start? That's incredibly offensive.


----------



## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vegiemom*
Yah, I think! If one doesn't WANT to kill another being to eat... then one (in this day and in this age...) has the ability to MOVE. To make different choices and provide different options for ones self.

I don't quite get it - is killing animals indirectly by taking/altering their land to grow plant-based food, competing with them for their food, taking the animals' land for your human shelter, etc somehow morally superior to killing an animal and eating it?
I, for one, am sick of some of the veg*ns on this board who use the "ethics" card. If not eating meat fits in with your morals, GREAT! - all the power to you, I'm happy you found a way of life that works for you, but quit insinuating that my morals are inferior!
Mandy


----------



## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vegiemom*
all the chickens I know live the life of riley! They are happy and healthy and loved and they show that love right back.









 *The Dog and the Wolf*

A gaunt Wolf was almost dead with hunger when he happened to
meet a House-dog who was passing by. "Ah, Cousin," said the Dog.
"I knew how it would be; your irregular life will soon be the ruin
of you. Why do you not work steadily as I do, and get your food
regularly given to you?"

"I would have no objection," said the Wolf, "if I could only
get a place."

"I will easily arrange that for you," said the Dog; "come with
me to my master and you shall share my work."

So the Wolf and the Dog went towards the town together. On
the way there the Wolf noticed that the hair on a certain part of
the Dog's neck was very much worn away, so he asked him how that
had come about.

"Oh, it is nothing," said the Dog. "That is only the place
where the collar is put on at night to keep me chained up; it
chafes a bit, but one soon gets used to it."

"Is that all?" said the Wolf. "Then good-bye to you, Master
Dog."

Better starve free than be a fat slave.

(from our good friend Aesop)


----------



## cathe (Nov 17, 2002)

This thread was closed temporarily because the discussion was getting off track. I reopened the thread but ask that everyone to keep the discussion to soy and avoid making personal attacks on members.

Thanks.


----------



## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

This "argument" will never be solved because one perspective is ethical while the other is nutritional.

But on a lighter note, the item on the agenda is:

Beans beans, the musical fruit! So much discussion over some poor little beans! Obviously people are arguing about things that have nothing to do with soybeans, they just get caught in the middle.


----------



## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Hmmm, toraji, food for thought. I hadn't considered it that way before. I do have a comment about the male chicks, though. Do chickens normally live in flocks like they do on a farm, with many hens with one rooster? It seems unusual to me, most birds I can think of off the top of my head if I know how they breed etc. have one mate. Geese and ducks, penguins, many song birds... anyway. Actually my question was originally going to be what happens to male chicks in the wild who do not grow up to be the rooster of the flock. I'm not trying to make a point or draw conclusions, just wondering.

Also, it has been my understanding that domesticated animals weren't all just taken out of the wild -- the animals and humans each had something to offer the other, and so they began (eventually) to co habitate. People had grain stores that would be eaten by mice. Cats would hang around and eat those mice. People would look after the cats in return. The cats would follow the people. I don't assume that this was the way it happened with all domestic animals, though. Just a thought.


----------



## Wildcrafter (Mar 11, 2003)

I think one underlying theme here that maybe we can agree on is that heavily processed, commercial food is no where near its natural state and thus taxes our digestive systems without providing real nutrition.

Be it the mass produced soy products that are sold in the US, which, unless organic, are heavily sprayed and genetically modified. Or commercial eggs and meats, full of hormones, antibiotics etc. Or even that grocery store carrot which has been sprayed and irradiated, again unless organic.

It's true that mass marketing has targeted soy beans as a super healthy food and now big money is being made. Most of the soy products on the market are just as processed as a box of Jiffy Corn Muffin Mix. Others (especially the fermented organic) are not bad in moderation, right?

As nasty as this thread was getting - and I'm glad it was held up for a while because I was ready to get nasty







- I really believe we all have a lot more in common than what first appears.


----------



## AJP (Apr 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brisen*
Hmmm, toraji, food for thought. I hadn't considered it that way before. I do have a comment about the male chicks, though. Do chickens normally live in flocks like they do on a farm, with many hens with one rooster? It seems unusual to me, most birds I can think of off the top of my head if I know how they breed etc. have one mate. Geese and ducks, penguins, many song birds... anyway. Actually my question was originally going to be what happens to male chicks in the wild who do not grow up to be the rooster of the flock. I'm not trying to make a point or draw conclusions, just wondering.

There's no such thing as a wild chicken. They evolved from a jungle fowl in Africa, alongside and encouraged by human society. I'm sure that without human tampering and assistance, there would be no such thing today as a "chicken". Same thing with dogs (desended from wild canines like wolves), cows (descended from the extinct wild aurochs but are as different from them as dogs are from wolves, in a practical sense), and many other domesticated animals. They exist in their current form only because of their relationship with humans. Some domestic animals can go feral with ease and survive quite well (horses and cats, for instance), others probably wouldn't survive more than a few generations without dramatic changes in their physiology and instincts. So, IMO, applying the values of a wild animal to a completely domesticated one such as a chicken is not a constructive line of reasoning. That in no way justifies treating the animals in our dominion in a cruel, indifferent or unnatural manner (i.e. concentrated animal feeding operations). If one wishes to only consume the products of animals that have lived "wild", more power to you and I understand the reasoning, but in the name of consistency, you might as well start gathering all your plant foods wild as well.


----------



## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Wildcrafter*
I think one underlying theme here that maybe we can agree on is that heavily processed, commercial food is no where near its natural state and thus taxes our digestive systems without providing real nutrition.

As nasty as this thread was getting - and I'm glad it was held up for a while because I was ready to get nasty







- I really believe we all have a lot more in common than what first appears.


*I totally agree! And I apalogize for being such a hell-bent but flighty poster...


----------



## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Edamommy, where you Vegiemom?

I wanted to introduce the agricutural side of soybean farming. Soybean is the largest crop farmed in the USA. It is being farmed as a Monocrop. Not a diverse farmed crop but a monocrop.

This means that it is taking space, time and manpower and resources away from the multi/diverse cropped farm.

Heirloom variety and small, family owned farms are being terribley threatened by the mono-crop companys.

How can eating soy then be ethical?

What about variety?


----------



## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

ITA with you, Wildcrafter.









As for soy baby formula... not to argue the bm vs formula issue which I think we all agree on, but if a baby is getting formula for whatever reason I personally don't think it should ever be a soy formula.


----------



## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

http://www.healingdaily.com/detoxification-diet/soy.htm
"A very large percentage of soy - over 90% - is genetically modified and it also has one of the highest percentages contamination by pesticides of any of the foods we eat."
"Who has something to gain from the consumption of soy? Perhaps companies like Monsanto which produce the genetically modified soybean seeds. Perhaps companies like Cargill Foods or SoyLife which produce countless soy-based foods. Or soybean councils in several states which represent farmers who grow this new, emerging bumper crop. And, of course, all of the companies which are constructing factories all over the world to do the processing which is necessary to make soybeans edible."

FYI-for Fallon-haters, this site does not reference her at all.

Mandy


----------



## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

I agree with mountain mom that soy farming can be quite unethical and I also think that the death of an animal for food should not be dismissed as an evil.

The healthiest farm is a mixed farm that includes both livestock and plant crops. And much of our farmland is not appropriate for grain or soy or vegetable production--tilling and annual cropping destroy that land and it is only suited to pasture. I live in area where much land has been severely damaged in exactly this way--it is suited for pasture but not row cropping. Period. Other land is suited only for forest/timber production and was similarly abused.

Those figures that show that the world could feed its hungry on a massive switch that turns pasture land into fields are misleading if you know much about sustainable agriculture.


----------



## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Thanks for the link Katzmama!

We live near a Cargill plant. Those who are vegan, do you know what else Cargill manufactures?

Mass Produced beef.

When we drive by, we can smell the butchering, feel the death. Sorry to be graphic, but they butcher more than 100 head a day.

They also manufacture gmo soy.

People's blind acceptance of the marketing of soy analog as a health food as contributed to a monocroping disaster.

How is that more ethical than a small 10 cow dairy farm or having a couple of chickens roaming around your back yard, that you have eggs from each day.

Or a goat that your children love and you milk every couple of days for milk to make youghurt, soap and cleaning products?

Hmmmmm


----------



## ChristaN (Feb 14, 2003)

We only buy organic, non-gmo soy & do our best to avoid soy protein isolates or other processed foods. I, therefore, hope that my soy is not coming from Monsanto or Cargill.

Quote:

How is that more ethical than a small 10 cow dairy farm or having a couple of chickens roaming around your back yard, that you have eggs from each day.

Or a goat that your children love and you milk every couple of days for milk to make youghurt, soap and cleaning products?

Hmmmmm
Are we discussing the ethics of veganism here or the health benefits or detriments of soy?


----------



## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

As you point it out from that angle perhaps my post seemed like it was slanted toward a vegan vs omni ethical discussion.

I was trying to point out the differences of ethical agriculture vs monocropping and brought in too many emotions.

I think that deeporgarten was more successful at this than I was.


----------



## cathe (Nov 17, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ChristaN*
Are we discussing the ethics of veganism here or the health benefits or detriments of soy?

Thanks ChristaN for the reminder to keep to the topic.


----------



## cjr (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:

As for soy baby formula... not to argue the bm vs formula issue which I think we all agree on, but if a baby is getting formula for whatever reason I personally don't think it should ever be a soy formula.
My sister has given her son soy formula for his first year. She didn't even attempt to bf. Her son spit up on milk based formula and she immediatley switched to soy. The problem did not correct itself with soy, but rather time. Her son looks so unhealthy. I don't know if it's the soy or the cheesies







, but his eyes are sunken in and he is pasty white. He is very very underweight and has a rash all over his face. She is not health concious. She goes with whatever is mainstream. We are VERY different.

My son is on formula (not for lack of trying and re-trying by re-lactating). I considered soy because we don't have an organic formula here, but read it was a far inferior option for babies. So, I gave him milk based and suppliment with coconut oil, hemp oil and egg yolks. He is very healthy. I do buy chocolate soy for the girls, about 2L every 2 weeks. I do drink soy sometimes, not often.

I'm on the fence. I don't do any other soy products other than the soy milk. I never really liked it. I went through a vegetarian stage in the spring, and never ate any soy products.

Quote:

We live near a Cargill plant. Those who are vegan, do you know what else Cargill manufactures?
Dh's parents live on a farm just north of it. I would go and visit many times and have to stay inside because the stench of rendered carcuses was too overwelming. It literally made you sick to your stomach. This plant also polutes the water system by consuming waaaaay more than it's alotted amounts. Everyone on the river is given water rights in the total of gallons of river water they can use for irrigation and so on. Cargill is a big problem because it does not abide by their rights. Dh's family keeps talking of letting us build a house next to their land. I don't think so! There is also a magnesium plant right there that has never worked, but they can't turn it off (what a waste of our taxes). Anyway, going off topic.

Is it all soy products in general. Is fermented soy, like soy sauce OK? I only buy organic soy milk and soy products (tamari and such).


----------



## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ChristaN*
We only buy organic, non-gmo soy & do our best to avoid soy protein isolates or other processed foods. I, therefore, hope that my soy is not coming from Monsanto or Cargill.

Are we discussing the ethics of veganism here or the health benefits or detriments of soy?

I think this conversation has been turned around completely. Can't we stay on topic with the O?


----------



## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

Personally I don't mind soy sauce etc like you mention & the occasional tofu or or soymilk. What I disagree with is the people I know who eat "fake" stuff multiple times a day every day in addition to going through lots of soymilk & tofu. To me, that's probably not healthier that eating lots of processed meat & dairy. And one of the problems I have with soy formula other than the ones you usually hear is the increased amount of aluminum they contain.


----------



## vwmama (May 2, 2003)

I also read somewhere that all soy is GM, I can't remember where I found that. Here's Mercola's take on soy.....

http://www.mercola.com/article/soy/#


----------



## Rainbowbird (Jul 26, 2004)

cjr said:


> My sister has given her son soy formula for his first year. She didn't even attempt to bf. Her son spit up on milk based formula and she immediatley switched to soy. The problem did not correct itself with soy, but rather time. Her son looks so unhealthy. I don't know if it's the soy or the cheesies
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ChristaN (Feb 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vwmama*
I also read somewhere that all soy is GM

The following page: http://www.soyinfo.com/haz/gehaz.shtml states that, "In North America, all soy that is labeled 'organic soy' is guaranteed to not be genetically-manipulated and not be treated with herbicides." Although one might think that it is a pro-soy website based on the name, I would have to think that it is not given that it has links to articles by Mercola & the woman who wrote the Mothering article on soy a few months back (who is associated with WAPF).

I'm sure enough to say that I am certain that _all_ soy is not GMO.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amnesiac*
And one of the problems I have with soy formula other than the ones you usually hear is the increased amount of aluminum they contain.

I never used formula at all with my girls, so I can't say that it is an issue that I have researched well. Does soy formula contain more aluminum than cow's milk based formula? If you don't mind, what is the source of that info? That is something that I have never heard, although I am certainly not claiming that it could not be true since I have no information either way.


----------



## amnesiac (Dec 28, 2001)

Quote:

Does soy formula contain more aluminum than cow's milk based formula? If you don't mind, what is the source of that info?
Yes, according to the AAP. Bottom of page 2:
http://aappolicy.aappublications.org...s;97/3/413.pdf


----------



## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ChristaN*

I'm sure enough to say that I am certain that _all_ soy is not GMO.

Exactly, not all is GMO. About 10% is certified organic. FTr...I eat miso, tempeh, some soy sauces on occasion, and rarely tofu. Try to source it from small suppliers who support diverse cropping.

That said, flipping that around 90% of soybean crops are not certified organic, and are gmo's. Soybean is the largest farmed crop in the USA. This is a concern for me, because I am an enviromentalist.

A large portion of useable agricultural land is being used to grow this crop that pollutes our water systems, sends gmo seed into the atmosphere to permeate land that doesn't use gmo seed, puts small farms out of business and monocrops our food source.

The funny thing is...the soy products that are good for you, proven to be healthful by both sides of the argument, almost always come from small independant farms and companies that support organics and biodiverse crop growing.

It is the large monocropping soy farms that will put these small growers, the ones we source our healthful organic fermented soy products from, out of business.

Put that soy analog bacon on your sandwich and have a good bite! :LOL

[last statement said in good humour...I hope]


----------



## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain mom*

That said, flipping that around 90% of soybean crops are not certified organic, and are gmo's. Soybean is the largest farmed crop in the USA. This is a concern for me, because I am an enviromentalist.










As an environmentalist, I assume you are also concerned about the vast amount of soy fed to the animals who are then fed to humans.

"...*about 90 percent of the 200 million tons of soy produced each year is used to feed animals.* Therefore, whether one consumes beef, lamb, bacon or processed chicken, chances are that animal was fed a soy diet, making it virtually impossible not to consume soy when eating any type of meat." This is from Dr. Mercola, no fan of veg*nism!

At the risk of raising the vegan/omni spectre again (but just briefly!














it's amusing to me when people defend meat eating with claims about how bad plant crops are for the planet. What do they think the majority of farmed animals eat?









Yes, environmentally-minded omnivores can only eat animals that were fed on grass or pasture. But veg*ns can also only eat soy grown in an organic, environmentally responsible way.

Producing plant proteins detroys wildlands and displaces animals. So does producing animal protein (just how much grass and pasture is there in the world to feed all those animals? And how does grazing impact native wildlife populations?).


----------



## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Moved to the wild chicken thread. Which has my name in the title! I feel special.


----------



## Wildcrafter (Mar 11, 2003)

I hope this isn't too off topic....

Correct me if I'm wrong - but I remember reading in the past year or so that Monsanto has bought out several major organic companies/producers including Cascadian Farms, Muir Glen etc etc. I also remember that since at least 2000 Monsanto has been trying to change the organic standards to include GMO foods, so far unsuccessfully. I think the profits seen by soy crops are a big part of these actions. But now that the U.S. government has it's little paws in the organic certification standards, I believe it's only a matter of time.

Sorry I don't have links to back this stuff up. I'm the type who only retains general concepts! I would LOVE to have someone tell me I'm wrong on this one!!!

re: quote:
"it's amusing to me when people defend meat eating with claims about how bad plant crops are for the planet."

I have never heard this argument - was it in this thread? I don't see how a meat eater could overlook the fact about the animals' feed in such an argument. Maybe a lot of the arguments between vegetarians and meat eaters stem from confusion about organic vs. non-organic?


----------



## vwmama (May 2, 2003)

Sorry, when I said all soy is GM is should have been more clear.... All soy that is not marked with the certified organic label is GM.


----------



## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

See thats the thing....MDC is full of conscious Mamas, whether you eat meat, soy, whatever.

The conscious meat eating mamas are eating grass fed, pasture, ethically butchered animals and the conscious soy mamas are eating organic, diverse farmed soy.

But, its the rest of the unconscious consumers that are feeding into the depletion of Mother Earth.

So sad....


----------



## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Wildcrafter*
Correct me if I'm wrong - but I remember reading in the past year or so that Monsanto has bought out several major organic companies/producers including Cascadian Farms, Muir Glen etc etc.

Sorry I don't have links to back this stuff up. I'm the type who only retains general concepts! I would LOVE to have someone tell me I'm wrong on this one!!!

Regarding corporate ownership of national organic food lines, you are not wrong: http://www.certifiedorganic.bc.ca/rc...ownership.html


----------



## Rainbowbird (Jul 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amnesiac*
Yes, according to the AAP. Bottom of page 2:
http://aappolicy.aappublications.org...s;97/3/413.pdf

That is a 1996 article...I wonder if it has changed? Also, I doubt it would be listed on the label but I remember comparing formula ingredients like crazy and the only difference I could find was the manganese.

I also wonder if specific brands would be better than others.

At any rate,I am praying for a successful BF experience this time around so that I don't have to play the formula game again!


----------



## heldt123 (Aug 5, 2004)

It takes 3-1/4 acres of land to feed a meat eater for one year and 1/2 an acre of land to feed a vegetarian and about 90% of grain grown in the U.S. is fed to livestock. Clearly, eating organic soy as a meat replacement or eating an organic vegetarian diet is environmentally responsible. That is one of the reasons that many asian countries don't eat much meat and eat more fish is because they don't have the land space required to raise a lot of meat.

Just a note, we are not vegetarians, but we do consume a limited amount of meat. We have fish occasionally, drink organic (non GMO) soy milk, and buy organic cage-free eggs. I break down and buy turkey dogs every once-in-a-while as my son likes them soo much, ugh! On rare occasions we buy some locally raised, pasture buffalo (it is a rare purcase because of the price). We don't use much tofu or other soy dirivitives because my husband doesn't like it, not because of the soy debate. I still belive that organic soy in moderation is healthier than eating most meat products.


----------



## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

Grain/soy-based feeding of livestock is unsustainable. It also can cause specific health problems for the animals and of course changes the composition of nutrients in the meat, milk, and eggs they produce. Grain/soy is also a questionable core diet for humans, healthwise. And this is what many, many vegetarians rely upon. Relying heavily upon soy is inherently out-of-balance for the fields it comes from, meat and dairy raised on it, and for the human consumer.

Many vegans and vegetarians I've encountered believe that meat-free diets could eliminate world hunger if enough people adopted them by revolutionizing agriculture and making it more productive and efficient. I disagree. Much of our pastureland cannot be heathily used for field crops--to suggest an acre-to-acre comparison misses a whole lot of the reality of wise land management. Now feed lot meat production is disgusting, unhealthy, polluting, and relies upon purchased grain/soy--a terrible system.

As for the topic, I believe that it is never off-topic to consider the the health of agriculture as part of the nutritional value of food. It is a disaster that we all have such a limited awareness of the inseparability if the two.

The label "organically grown" is not by itself a guarantee of healthy agriculture. It is a step in the right direction, but can also be deceptive. It certainly does not mean that the fields are not monocropped. I would bet that most of them are. However, I would also claim that not every monocropped field is bad, for appropriate rotation, fertility management, cover cropping, and soil/water conservation management are more important than this distinction. There are many indicators of health on the farm, but most of us have no idea what they are or how to recognize them. Organic production can be unsustainably managed if organic fertilizers and pest control products are simply substituted for the previously used synthetics without changing other basic beliefs and practices within the farm system.

If consumers' real knowledge of agriculture is limited or nonexistent, then we are not able to understand health of ourselves or the environment very clearly.


----------



## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heldt123*
It takes 3-1/4 acres of land to feed a meat eater for one year and 1/2 an acre of land to feed a vegetarian and about 90% of grain grown in the U.S. is fed to livestock. Clearly, eating organic soy as a meat replacement or eating an organic vegetarian diet is environmentally responsible. That is one of the reasons that many asian countries don't eat much meat and eat more fish is because they don't have the land space required to raise a lot of meat.

Are these numbers based on factory farming methods? Or sustainable methods? And how is a "meat eater" defined? I follow a WAP or NT diet (mostly), but I don't eat a lot of meat, certainly not a lot of muscle meat, and most of it comes from a friend's organic animals-and-veggies farm.

Isn't pork a big part of many Asian diets? It is my understanding that pigs/hogs/boars are good at foraging, eating roots and such. This is the point I was trying to make earlier -- there is much land more suited to animals like pigs than to growing crops, and is better utilized by people by feeding animals on it rather than turning it into crop land.


----------



## heldt123 (Aug 5, 2004)

I agree, deeporgarten, that our system is messed up at the best. I was in no way saying that everyone should be a vegetarian to save the earth. My orignial point was that relying heavily on meat as a main food source in the diet is a waste of resources. It does take more land to produce meat than it does to produce vegetables and grains and the land is mismanaged with most farming systems today. I think that people in the U.S. eat waaay too much meat these days and do not take into consideration what they are putting into their bodies and how it was produced. I used to live in California and we always drove by these huge cow farms where as far as you could see it was little square pens packed with sad looking cows sitting on manure piles. What a sickening, pathetic way to treat animals and the environment! Up near where we live now, there is a local farm that has a large land area of rolling, grassy hills where the cows are free to roam and are rotated (will edit later, have to go...)


----------



## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heldt123*
It takes 3-1/4 acres of land to feed a meat eater for one year and 1/2 an acre of land to feed a vegetarian and about 90% of grain grown in the U.S. is fed to livestock.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brisen*
Are these numbers based on factory farming methods? Or sustainable methods? And how is a "meat eater" defined? I follow a WAP or NT diet (mostly), but I don't eat a lot of meat, certainly not a lot of muscle meat, and most of it comes from a friend's organic animals-and-veggies farm.

Good question. Dh and I are fairly heavy on the meat-eating, and we only go through 1/8th of a cow per year. This includes having people over and feeding them from time to time. There are two of us, so that's 1/16 of a cow per person. This would mean that, assuming a meat-eater eats 1/2 an acres worth of non-meat products in addition to the meat, *ONE COW* uses 2.75*16=*44 Acres* per year!!!!!!!!!

Edited to add: I thought I was replying to the other thread. Sorry, this has nothing to do with soy.


----------



## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

On the soy front, I do eat some soy, in the form of miso and of course soy sauce (I haven't tried tempeh yet, but I will). I could never stomach tofu, but have only tried it in ridiculous quantities on my quest to be health conscious (like the fake meat stuff - blech). I'm not opposed to eating it in small quantities, but based on what I've read I don't think it has evolved to be a dietary staple.


----------



## naturalmother (Jan 22, 2005)

I'm afraid I have to agree that soy is bad for you. It was bad for me. I was a vegetarian for 6 months. My diet was otherwise perfect, except I used to consume soy. I was basically sick with an infection every week, until I cut out soy.

I have never been sick like that since. I don't think its a co-incidence either.

Just wanted to add my 0.02c.


----------



## ChristaN (Feb 14, 2003)

Quote:

I'm afraid I have to agree that soy is bad for you. It was bad for me. I was a vegetarian for 6 months. My diet was otherwise perfect, except I used to consume soy. I was basically sick with an infection every week, until I cut out soy.

I have never been sick like that since. I don't think its a co-incidence either.
I can accept that, but the point is that soy was bad for you and your specific constitution. That does not mean that it is bad for me or anyone else in particular. Some people have problems with some foods. That does not mean that everyone should avoid them. Meat & dairy create big problems for my dh (elevation in bp, heart problems...), but some people can eat a Big Mac everyday with no visible averse effects. I know many people have problems with gluten. Again, that does not mean that gluten is bad for everyone.

One person's experience cannot be extrapolated to everyone. Even a good sized body of people who have problems with certain foods (like the pretty large number of people with intolerances to dairy or gluten) does not mean that a certain food (dairy, soy, gluten, etc.) creates health problems for everyone or that the food is universally unhealthy.


----------



## naturalmother (Jan 22, 2005)

Quote:

I can accept that, but the point is that soy was bad for you and your specific constitution. That does not mean that it is bad for me or anyone else in particular.
Oh, your absolutely right. I'm sorry. I guess I should of worded my post a little better.


----------



## mountain (Dec 12, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *naturalmother*
I'm afraid I have to agree that soy is bad for you. It was bad for me. I was a vegetarian for 6 months. My diet was otherwise perfect, except I used to consume soy. I was basically sick with an infection every week, until I cut out soy.

I have never been sick like that since. I don't think its a co-incidence either.

Just wanted to add my 0.02c.

While I am glad you are not sick anymore, I have to but in my .02 to say I've been eating a soy included diet for 12 years and have never felt better! I'm a vegetarian, have been sick one time this entire winter. I think there are more factors affecting health than soy consumption.

To me, saying soy is detrimental because it "has no cholesterol, needed for brain function" is so frickin laughable. It's like saying "the sky is bad, because it's not the ground."

Obviously, there are other other ways to obtain cholesterol, and obviously americans have found them to the point of gluttony. In fact, your body PRODUCES it's OWN cholesterol.

I also really loved the "research" in the soy article in mothering that soy was used by chinese women to keep their wandering husbands at bay. I was laughing through the entire article. Small penises. Come on people. Can we be a little more bent on linking indirectly?

Anyway, I do feel a responsibility to walk as lightly as I can on this earth to compensate for the other people on this earth who are trampling the place down. I would rather eat some organic soy than some flesh of an animal that has been FED gmo soy any day. I too am guilty of eating some gmo veggie burgers, but I promise from this day on, I will be conscious of that. I'm glad we're all trying to be conscious, discussing this.

Really, a lot of food for thought here!


----------



## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

I think that it's really the KIND of soy that is detrimental, less than "ALL SOY". We all know that processed foods are bad for us, and that includes processed soy foods. So, for example, I don't mind eating tempeh, tofu (in limited amounts), tamari, or miso, but I wouldn't eat soy ice cream, soy butter, soy milk, chik nuggets, fake bacon, or anything like that. So many dubious ingredients.

Of course, if you eat tofu, or tempeh, and it makes you sick, then by all means, don't eat it. Not everyone can tolerate the same foods. My mom gets sick eating tomatoes. Does that mean that no one should eat tomatoes? Of course not. I eat large amounts of dairy, but it doesn't bother me at all. But according to many people, dairy makes them sick. Thank goodness there's a large variety of foods out there for us, so we don't all have to eat all the same things.


----------



## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Gah, I forgot which thread I was on. My apologies.


----------



## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

ITA with the different forms of soy being healthier than others. Such as tempeh, miso etc.

The things that really irks me about the soy based analogs is first the amount of ingredients in the product, the heat used to produce it, and the amount of packaging the food is in.

They seem so far removed from food, so processed. So much sodium.

I think its not fair playing field to compare a GMO analog soy bacon product with a lovely miso from a small supplier who ferments it in cedar bin for 2 years with a family recipe.

The grey area in my opinion is vast on this topic.


----------



## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

If I have to choose between soy (which by the way is not my only source of protein--far from it) and eating meat again, I will eat soy even if it kills me. At least I'm not killing another creature. That goes against my moral beliefs and is not something I can live with.

My baby has GI problems. Starting with breastmilk we worked our way through every formula on the shelf and the one that works best for her is soy. She vomits forcefully through nose and mouth on other formulas and on breastmilk. She is tube-fed. Soy has probably saved her life. Not ideal but better than a malnourished or dead baby.

I was also a soymilk baby. My mom tried bfing for 6 mos and got tired of me vomiting all the time, so put me on soy. She didn't know about the elimination diet back then. I ended being allergic to dairy for years.


----------



## ChristaN (Feb 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *naturalmother*
Oh, your absolutely right. I'm sorry. I guess I should of worded my post a little better.









And I apologize if I jumped on you - this topic tends to get me a bit testy. I am glad to see that it is being discussed in a more open minded manner here as this thread progresses.


----------



## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Persephone*
I think that it's really the KIND of soy that is detrimental, less than "ALL SOY". We all know that processed foods are bad for us, and that includes processed soy foods. So, for example, I don't mind eating tempeh, tofu (in limited amounts), tamari, or miso, but I wouldn't eat soy ice cream, soy butter, soy milk, chik nuggets, fake bacon, or anything like that. So many dubious ingredients.

My soymilk is made of organic soy beans and filtered water. Not that dubious. Even most store-bought brands don't have much extra added, and are made from soy beans (not soy protein isolate or TVP or anything like that). Just an FYI....


----------



## treehugger (Jan 21, 2005)

:

This is all so interesting, after reading thru these posts I am very confused about the consumption of soy.

Could someone please direct me to some websites that are not funded by dairy farmers. Websites you know are reliable so I can do further research.

Thanks a bunch


----------



## love2all (Dec 13, 2003)

I will admit I have not read thru the 7 pages but this is a topic dear to my heart so I will add my 2 cents.
We are a vegan family who consumes a lot of soy. I do not like the processed stuff but dh and dc do. I have been trying to weed it out - at least the fake meat stuff- so full of sodium. But being vegan I do allow the kids to eat soy ice cream and the like- I really have not seen to many dubious ingredients in the ones I buy. And I only buy organic soy anything.
That said, my kids who consume lots of soy are very healthy. At 9 and 6 they have both been to a doc once in their lives- both trips to the er for different reasons. The 9 yo has 0 cavitites, the 6 yo has a few we will seal and watch.
So I guess my point is that you gotta eat what is right for you and your family and not go over board on anything processed- soy or not.
And I really think that the soy article in mothering was exteremely biased and ill-researched...


----------



## ChristaN (Feb 14, 2003)

treehugger,

Your request for unbiased soy research is such a toughy. It seems that most, if not all, of the anti-soy stuff that I have seen is either directly written by Sally Fallon & Mary Enig who, although not directly associated with dairy farmers, seem to have a personal vendeta against soy to me and are promoting a diet in which one _must_ eat animal products or suffer ill health or written by others associated with Fallon & Enig through WAPF. Although there are a few others who think that soy is very bad, too. I, personally, haven't found any of their arguements convincing.

On the other hand, those who say that it isn't bad are often vegetarian writers. I did like John Robbins' response to the anti-soy camp. Although I recognize that he is promoting a vegan diet, he didn't make a blanket statment that all soy is great. If you are interested, his response is here: http://www.foodrevolution.org/what_about_soy.htm

I always like searching the National Library of Medicine's online site, PubMed, for scientific studies, as well. You can do this by going to: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi and typing in a search for "soy and health" or something along those lines. You can read abstracts of studies on their site. Pretty much all of the studies that I have seen linked there, and their database is pretty comprehensive, do not lead me to believe that soy is detrimental to one's health.


----------



## treehugger (Jan 21, 2005)

ChristaN

Those sites look interesting, as soon as I have a bit more time I will have to sit down and read them.

Thank you for posting them.


----------



## Chanley (Nov 19, 2001)

I just want to chime in....

that not all meat is the same.

We eat mostly pastured meat. Our meat is slaughtered and processed by the very people who raised them. They are never transported or put in nasty slaughterhouses.

The folks raising these animals pasture them.

We used to eat meat once a week. That worked for us. We ate tons of beans rice and veggies. Then my dd came along. She is allergic to soy, diary, corn, and most grains. My son vomits profusely when he is exposed to things like wheat and soy leaves him in bad shape. Suddenly, we are on a paleolithic diet (with some cheating for rice).

With this transformation...I have faces to put with the food on my table. I believe wholeheartedly that we are eating a much more earth friendly diet. It is local, unprocessed and the only transporting is from the farm to my freezer.

The most effective subsistance strategy in the history of man was hunter gatherer. But that takes more land than we have for our current population. I think we just have too many people. So rather than focus on feeding the entire world via grains, I think we should start thinking about personally (not gov'tally) limiting our population growth.

Not all meat is McD's. Some of it is healthier, raised in a healthier environment.


----------



## kaydee (Aug 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chanley*
With this transformation...I have faces to put with the food on my table. I believe wholeheartedly that we are eating a much more earth friendly diet. It is local, unprocessed and the only transporting is from the farm to my freezer.

That sounds like a wy of eating that works well for your family, and relies mostly (if not solely?) on local food webs. I am curious about what you mean when you say it is a "much more earth-friendly diet"--to what are you comparing it?


----------



## SeekTruth2332 (Sep 11, 2014)

*Sign the petition to ask FDA to ban soy from our foods.*

Her list seemed very thorough to me. Soy is toxic sludge. Those of you who do not know, need a list compiled. It is well over 90 percent GMO,for one. This means even the organic is contaminated with GMO's. The rainforests are being cut down in Brazil and Argentina, so this toxic sludge can be dumped into every food we eat. The animals vegetarians are concerned about, are also being poisoned with soy. It is a main ingredient in their feed.The worst insult, yet is that it is in baby formulas and almost every food in our children's school lunches,from a whole wheat dinner roll to a fruit roll up. Soy causes learning disabilities and excites the nervous systems in children, causing them not to be able to focus and to have behavioral issues.I thank the Divine every day that I found out. I suffered from health issues including infertility and the painful endometriosis(documented to be caused directly from soy). I would be childless today,if I had not found out. When I stopped soy, my health went UPHILL! Any one I know who has quit soy has had the same reaction from their body. Please keep spreading this message. Truth is a hard pill for people to swallow, (but it is still better then swallowing soy) If you save even one person and their precious children from the horrors of soy , it is worth all the reactions from naysayers, who defend soy without ever reading the endles documented medical information(which you and I have read) on the endless diseases it causes, then you rock lady, and you have made up for giving your baby soy before you knew. Some of these people are listening to corporate funded studies on soy. The FDA even is admitting with the vast amount of scientific and medical literature being presented,that soy actually causes breast cancer,rather then prevent as you heard from your Dr. We all need to learn to decipher the industry lie 's from the truth. Wake up and smell the coffee, before it's too late. Soylent Green is not green, it is a black and insidious evil, that threatens all life on this planet. Than You so much, civmom511!!!


----------

