# the 1,2,3 rule



## Aeress (Jan 25, 2005)

Anyone familiar with using the counting method? Is there a book that gives details about what this method is and why it would be effective?

My dear friend said "no..., your food isn't for throwing. that is 1". She then said, "I'm not supposed to give them a reason but I like to."

I don't think I like it but am curious about using such a method, since it is news to me.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Positive Discipline by ???Jane Nelson
I'm guessing but google that
old threads here, too


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

sounds like 1,2,3 Magic. Aren't they the "do what I say before I count to 3 or you get punished" people?


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## Aeress (Jan 25, 2005)

yep, that sounds like them. I just googled it and it sounds like the author encourages time out, which I am not a fan of.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

also does talk a lot about natural and logical consequences which is interesting


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## Fairy4tmama (Sep 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
sounds like 1,2,3 Magic. Aren't they the "do what I say before I count to 3 or you get punished" people?

yep 123 magic personaly I have seen 123 used in the way ch friend has described as well as in a much less punitive way, like all things it depends on how its used and where your coming from (ie if your a spanker and screamer this method can be a bridge to a much less punative method)


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

I just had to pop back on... My ds was running through the house w/the toilet plunger shooting alien blasters and I asked him to put it back. He ignored me and continue sprinting and firing so I just said okay I'm happy to put it away for you 1....
and he said oh okay Mommy and put it back in the bathroom. He knew that on 3 I would've put it away thus depriving him of the joy/ownership of being the plunger master.
In this case (obviously) I don't see it as punitive at all.

Lots of diff contexts tho


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## Aeress (Jan 25, 2005)

*laughs*

I can see how it works in that situation but if the child doesn't stop the unwanted behavior by the count of 3, then what? time out?

I guess I disagree with the idea that children don't understand explanations.


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## Teensy (Feb 22, 2002)

I think the "don't bother explaining it" part of _1,2,3 Magic_ is referring to kids who are older and wiser and already know better. Like the six year old who calls his brother a poopy head. You don't need to explain to him that it isn't nice to call his brother a poopy head - he already knows it isn't nice and re-telling him over and over won't help any more than simply giving him a count ("That's one.").

If it was the first time a child misbehaved in that fashion, or if you were talking about a young child, the 1-2-3 technique would not be the right one to use.

I personally don't think time outs are a bad parenting tool, though I know many at MDC do.

_1,2,3 Magic_ has been a helpful tool (though I wouldn't describe it as magic! It hasn't worked that well) with DS#1. If you are opposed to time outs, then don't bother reading the book. Otherwise, you might find some good advice - divided largely into two types - stopping inapporpriate behavior (with counting) and starting good behaviors (with other techniques). Your library probably has a copy.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Yes, it's 1,2,3 Magic. We have had pretty good success with it, but I'm not opposed to time-out. My older daughter is very strong-willed, and she actually does pay attention using this method. She has told us she likes it because we don't have to raise our voices. You can give this child explanations till the cows come home, to no avail. But 1,2,3 Magic, she listens to.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

We had a game when dd1 was a toddler going through the car seat refusal period. We would count until she got in. Very fun.

However, I saw the looks on the other little kids faces when I started counting...horror, fear. Until I got to about 10 and dd and I were giggling together.

Those looks stuck with me and taught me a lot. The magic of 1 2 3 when I was growing up was that kids got hit at the end. Now it's timeout. Doesn't seem very magic to me.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

I think it would merit reading it b/c I don't think the answer is hitting or time-out at all. I read it AGES and ages ago but I did not come away thinking that it was a power struggle always ending in time-outs. We don't use t/o and I'm very happy w/counting. I think (again ages ago) that their main advice was to look outside the box for creative solutions rather than resorting to punitive ones.


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## stefka (May 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BusyMommy* 








I just had to pop back on... My ds was running through the house w/the toilet plunger shooting alien blasters and I asked him to put it back. He ignored me and continue sprinting and firing so I just said okay I'm happy to put it away for you 1....
and he said oh okay Mommy and put it back in the bathroom. He knew that on 3 I would've put it away thus depriving him of the joy/ownership of being the plunger master.
In this case (obviously) I don't see it as punitive at all.

Lots of diff contexts tho

This is exactly how I use it (not at all the way espoused in the book), and DH is continuously amazed at how well it works. My reasoning is... I've told DS that something is unsafe or otherwise unacceptable, and he can now fix the problem. The counting gives him a sense of urgency/ keeps him on task. If he is unwilling or unable to make the change, then at 3 I do it for him.

Wouldn't work for something like calling another kid a poopy head (since "mommy will do it if you don't" isn't an option), but for safety issues and things like getting out of the house on time in the morning, it works really well for us.

His latest thing is that he doesn't want me to say 3, so if he's making an effort to comply (almost always), I wait and let him shout it. Doesn't seem to scarring.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Yep


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## Viriditas (Aug 30, 2004)

Okay, ds is only 15 months, so I don't really have any personal experience with discipline yet, but this just kind of gives me a bad taste in my mouth. I'm trying to put myself in the place of the child at whom the counting is directed. What is going through her head? I can't imagine a scenario in which "one" is not a threat. It means "You'd better do what mama wants or else..." It doesn't matter what comes next, whether it's "I'm going to take your toy" or "I'm going to hit you." Any way you slice it it's going to make the child feel a sense of powerlessness. She really has no choice in the matter but to comply. Wouldn't it be better (albeit a little more effort) to make the child aware of your objection to the situation and empower HER to make a change?


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

That's what makes life beautiful. We're all so different & able to respect and discuss.









I don't see it as powerlessness or compulsory at a parent's whim at all. I see it as giving choices; ie. you're making a dangerous choice by running through the house w/a toilet plunger in your hands. Please think about what you're doing and why but I am here to help you put it away if it's too tempting. You may choose to let the child continue playing w/it. Another parent may have perfect plumbing and thus no need for a toilet plunger. Yet another parent may simply grab the plunger away.








We're all in different situations and shoes.


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

We used 1,2,3, Magic for a very brief time. It worked well when my dd was at the age between 2 and 3, where distraction and diversion no longer work and reasoning is too advanced. (I rarely got to "3" so in that sense, it was 'magic'.) It stopped working well when she got around 3, and we abandoned it pretty quickly.


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## Viriditas (Aug 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BusyMommy* 
I see it as giving choices; ie. you're making a dangerous choice by running through the house w/a toilet plunger in your hands. Please think about what you're doing and why but I am here to help you put it away if it's too tempting. You may choose to let the child continue playing w/it. Another parent may have perfect plumbing and thus no need for a toilet plunger. Yet another parent may simply grab the plunger away.








We're all in different situations and shoes.

I do see where you're coming from. But I still don't see that a real choice has been given. With this method, the "choice" is, "Either you can put the plunger away or I will put it away for you." Either way the plunger's getting put away. I get that when safety is concerned sometimes a parent has to put her foot down. But maybe if the child understands what could happen when he runs with the plunger HE will choose to put it away before the need for assertion of power arises. Personally, I would be inclined to give him that chance before making the decision for him. But saying, "please put it away, 1." is like saying "I know you won't make the right decision without the threat of a less-desirable option."


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

My impression of it is based largely on seeing parents futilely bleating "That's 1....2....2 and a quarter....2 and a half...I really mean it...you don't want me to get to 3...2 and three quarters...."

I don't know - it seems like either it's based on empty threats or effective threats, neither of which I favor.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
We had a game when dd1 was a toddler going through the car seat refusal period. We would count until she got in. Very fun.

However, I saw the looks on the other little kids faces when I started counting...horror, fear. Until I got to about 10 and dd and I were giggling together.

Those looks stuck with me and taught me a lot. The magic of 1 2 3 when I was growing up was that kids got hit at the end. Now it's timeout. Doesn't seem very magic to me.

I have to wonder if any of these children were afraid of counting, or if this in any way impeded them learning math, if they associated counting with punishment.


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammastar2* 
My impression of it is based largely on seeing parents futilely bleating "That's 1....2....2 and a quarter....2 and a half...I really mean it...you don't want me to get to 3...2 and three quarters...."

I don't know - it seems like either it's based on empty threats or effective threats, neither of which I favor.

FTR, the actual book that describes the method advises strongly against the "2 and a half ..." implementation. Parents who do that are flying by the seat of their pants, they're not actually using the technique.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BusyMommy* 








I just had to pop back on... My ds was running through the house w/the toilet plunger shooting alien blasters and I asked him to put it back. He ignored me and continue sprinting and firing so I just said okay I'm happy to put it away for you 1....
and he said oh okay Mommy and put it back in the bathroom. He knew that on 3 I would've put it away thus depriving him of the joy/ownership of being the plunger master.
In this case (obviously) I don't see it as punitive at all.

Lots of diff contexts tho

Yep, that's how it was used when I was growing up. It tended to be a "I need this done *now* not later" sort of signal. They got to 3 once with each of us. In my case, I was 3 years old and didn't want to put away toys. Mom took my little hands and helped me put the toys away--all of 10 minutes with my crying that "I'm a big girl, I can do it myself". "Yes, next time you can do it yourself."

The 2 and one quarter concept is BS. If you've got time to count like that, you shouldn't have been doing the 1-2-3 thing anyway.

It's sort of a heads-up that parents feel the need to apply a logical consequence.









Oh, reading through more of this thread, I need to clarify. 1-2-3 is never the first request. It was generally:
"Please stop .... and get ready to go."
<ignore>
"We need to leave, I need you to stop ...."
<ignore>
"You have to the count of 3 to stop..... 1"


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## KermitMissesJim (Feb 12, 2004)

Quote:

I have to wonder if any of these children were afraid of counting, or if this in any way impeded them learning math, if they associated counting with punishment.
So far, it's not affecting our son's math ability. He's a wiz. Runs in the family.

1-2-3 at our house gives the child the chance to step back and think about his/her actions. I can't remember the last time I even got to three.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Hey Ruthla, my dd is a math nut. Loves numbers! I wonder if that's why.


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## tatermom (Jun 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
We had a game when dd1 was a toddler going through the car seat refusal period. We would count until she got in. Very fun.

However, I saw the looks on the other little kids faces when I started counting...horror, fear. Until I got to about 10 and dd and I were giggling together.

Those looks stuck with me and taught me a lot. The magic of 1 2 3 when I was growing up was that kids got hit at the end. Now it's timeout. Doesn't seem very magic to me.

We do the exact same thing, especially with the carseat! After I've asked DS to climb in his seat and I've waited for him to be done with whatever he's doing (he loves to "drive"), I suggest, "do you want to count to 10?". DS almost always starts it off and I count along with him and by the end he almost always happily climbs into his seat. It is not punitive at all in the way we do it (if we get to 10 and he doesn't climb in, I just say, "oh, you weren't ready to get in the seat yet? well, please finish up what you're doing and then get in because we need to go!"), but it almost always works, I think because it gives DS a way to transition from one activity to the next in a predictable way. He's in charge of it, even if the suggestion comes from me. I have loved this method with DS.

I have done this in public, though, and always wondered what other people are thinking... that he'll be "punished" if we get to 10??


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
Hey Ruthla, my dd is a math nut. Loves numbers! I wonder if that's why.









Why it works with her?


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## lovemyfamily6 (Dec 27, 2006)

We did 1-2-3 Magic for a couple months here within the last year. I think it was good for us initially because I was getting so frustrated and was yelling a lot. However, after I started really thinking about it (and reading Playful Parenting), I decided that it wasn't the kind of parenting I wanted to do. I wanted my kids to do things because it was the right thing to do, not because I counted them and they wanted to avoid the timeout. I also felt like I was training a dog instead of teaching my children. We really changed the way we did things then and did time in's instead.

Now we have a fun counting thing. There's no consequence involved. If we need to be in carseats so we can go somewhere, I "blast off". The boys all love space and everything that goes with it. So I'll say "I'm going to see if I can blast off before you're in your seat!" Then I start counting from 10. If I get down to 1, I would yell Blast Off! but I haven't gotten there yet.









We also use that for them to be loud. If I need to make a phone call or something where I'm asking them to talk quietly for a period of time so I can hear, I'll let them do a "loud boy blast off" right before. Basically, It tell them to be as noisy as they want and while I count down, they scream and yell and laugh and when I say blast off, they stop. It seems to help them give me a few minutes when I need it. We also do that if they're arguing or calling each other names. I just ask if they want to do a loud boy blast off and they all have so much fun with it, they forget about calling their brother a poopy.









That's the only counting we do in our house now.


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## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

We use counting, mostly with my Aspie ds who really seems to connect with it and who has freakishly minimal impulse control. However, we don't structure this around the threat of punishment.

It is really a way to give time to comply or stop a behavior before we intervene. Our idea of intervention is to simply that we will enter the situation and do what needs to be done or block/remove child from an unacceptable behavior. Since he would rather be in control and do things himself, he is pretty receptive to the idea of choosing to do it himself sooner rather than us doing it for him later. I've found in general that it also offers "adjustment" time or time to process the instruction along with an incentive.

Ds's special needs drastically altered my approach to parenting. He does a LOT of inappropriate, often destructive things and has trouble tuning in to communications from us and then changing behavior. The counting seems to cause him to perk up his ears and focus on what we are saying. It gives him a mild incentive to actively alter his choices without stalling. Since he is a 7yo with a lot of toddler-level behaviors, it's important that we have ways of getting a response when many common and less absolute approaches to communication totally go over his head.

I think our non-punitive intentions really help us use this to solve problems in a healthy way, though what we need it to do is a bit different than for many folks.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Why it works with her?

No, why she loves numbers. Maybe she associates them with fun!

I think it worked with her because kids eventually get into their car seats when it's time to go. It relaxed me and moved me away from wanting "instant compliance."


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Please refer to the forum guidelines.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viriditas* 
I do see where you're coming from. But I still don't see that a real choice has been given. With this method, the "choice" is, "Either you can put the plunger away or I will put it away for you." Either way the plunger's getting put away. I get that when safety is concerned sometimes a parent has to put her foot down. But maybe if the child understands what could happen when he runs with the plunger HE will choose to put it away before the need for assertion of power arises. Personally, I would be inclined to give him that chance before making the decision for him. But saying, "please put it away, 1." is like saying "I know you won't make the right decision without the threat of a less-desirable option."


I agree, that's why I wrote I'd given him a chance.







We talked about what the potential hazards were.

Quote:

My ds was running through the house w/the toilet plunger shooting alien blasters and *I asked him to put it back. He ignored me and continue sprinting* and firing so I just said okay I'm happy to put it away for you 1....
and he said oh okay Mommy and put it back in the bathroom. He knew that on 3 I would've put it away

The

Quote:

like saying "I know you won't make the right decision without the threat of a less-desirable option.
you mention were clearly 1. you're going to impale yourself or your bro. on a toilet plunger or 2. I'm going to put it away for you.

But, yes, TONS of diff. interpretations & applications of the method. I, too, agree that the 2 1/2 scenario is counter productive.


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

I don't use this method but I do have to advocate for the "either you do it or I do it" IS a choice for many children. For many of the children I work with, like deeporgarten's son, the ability to have control over aspects of their life, even the little bits, is very important. For them, being able to put the plunger away on their own is just as important as being able to play with it. And they would MUCH rather have the option to do it themselves rather than having me do it. There are so many aspects of childhood in which children are not in control (such as the fact that the plunger cannot be played with) that allowing them control over what is more free is really important.

Therefore, when it comes to those sorts of things that HAVE to be done, I'd much prefer to give them that option. And most of the time, they take it.In the plunger situation, this:

"But maybe if the child understands what could happen when he runs with the plunger HE will choose to put it away before the need for assertion of power arises. Personally, I would be inclined to give him that chance before making the decision for him. But saying, "please put it away, 1." is like saying "I know you won't make the right decision without the threat of a less-desirable option.""

isn't going to work. If he understood (enough to act on it) why it wasn't safe, he wouldn't be doing it. And in an unsafe situation, you don't have time to make a long explanation and wait for the child to understand it/or not understand it, and then make a decision to stop the behavior. You have to intervene right away. But that doesn't mean that the child can't be part of stopping the behavior. Then you can talk about it afterwards, and remind them of why you had them stop.


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## Viriditas (Aug 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PikkuMyy* 
If he understood (enough to act on it) why it wasn't safe, he wouldn't be doing it. And in an unsafe situation, you don't have time to make a long explanation and wait for the child to understand it/or not understand it, and then make a decision to stop the behavior. You have to intervene right away. But that doesn't mean that the child can't be part of stopping the behavior. Then you can talk about it afterwards, and remind them of why you had them stop.

Okay, so here is how I was imagining the situation in my oh-so-naive-and-inexperienced mind. Child is running with plunger. Parent gets child's attention, getting down on his level, hands on shoulders (assuming this can be done). Says something like, "It looks like you're having fun! But you know what? If you fall down while you're running with that plunger it would hurt really bad! Can you please put the plunger away in the bathroom?"

I just think that there's a difference between this and "if you can't put it away, mommy will (which starts with the assumption that the child can't make that decision without the threat)."


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

TRUE very true but even in that situation the child may very well make a vrooming noise and plunge away b/c it is simply too darn fun to pretend your plunger is an alien light saber and you're saving the planet. Then, what? Really, I am honestly curious how others would react. I gave him one more chance to be reasonable, was ignored and then gave him the choice to put it away himself or I would help him. Then, reality kicked in and he realized it's more fun to put away the plunger himself than have to give up the control.

I think we're ALMOST saying apples and oranges here. I agree don't make an immediate threat. But, every situation is different and in a potentially dangerous situation where the brain has been overtaken by excitement, than I do feel I need to step in.


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## MaxMommy (Feb 16, 2007)

I've been using the 123 thing lately somewhat like the way Busymommy is, with no real threats, just the attitude that something needs to be done and this is the reason and if you don't want to do it I will. Ds is 3 and very much wanting to do everything by himself, as well as easily distracted and suddenly very fond of "no". I find that counting keeps him aware of the request and he knows that if I hit 3 he no longer has the chance to do for himself.

It seema to be working so far, kind of like a game. If it becomes a power struggle though I'm willling to abandon it as I really don't want to go into anything punitive and I've seen it used that way.


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

. . .


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## Jennah_Gole (Dec 12, 2001)

I think it is a technique and it really just depends on the way you use it. I never knew it could be used in the way mentioned by op as 1-2-3 magic.

I used it as, "If I count to 3 and you haven't done what I asked you to do, then you are in trouble." and depending on my mood the punishment would range from in your room to hitting. Now that was the past and of course was very unsuccessful.

I prefer just trying to explain to ds (5 years old) why the use of the plunger for instance would be dangerous and I would let him help me think of ways in which it was dangerous but at the same time I would agree with him that it was fun for him to pretend and imagine that he was saving the planet. Maybe he could think of something else to use that would be less dangerous. Maybe making a paper sword or something like that. I know that time is limited but I think it is worth the time to help the child through. Maybe next time he wants to grab the plunger he will think - hmmm, mom explained to me that its dangerous -- ok, i will go and have her make me a paper sword..

of course, it doesn't always work out the way you think it will but its worth a try. The more you try at working with your kids, the more they will try working with you.


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## doctorjen (May 29, 2003)

To me, the "magic" of the 1-2-3 Magic book is the discussion in it about avoiding the "ask-ask again-beg-plead-nag-yell-threaten-hit" (or something like that) cycle. The method strongly advocates not yelling, threatening, or getting out of control. I work with a lot of families using some pretty out of control methods of discipline - or non-discipline, just yelling going on. I have loaned out 1-2-3 Magic a few times because it is very easy to learn and can take a lot of the anger out of parent-child interactions if used.
We don't really use it at our house, though, as I prefer a more "playful parenting" type approach - but I have seen it be a useful tool for parents who are struggling a lot with discipline issues, especially those coming from a background with a lot of negative role models.


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viriditas* 
Okay, so here is how I was imagining the situation in my oh-so-naive-and-inexperienced mind. Child is running with plunger. Parent gets child's attention, getting down on his level, hands on shoulders (assuming this can be done). Says something like, "It looks like you're having fun! But you know what? If you fall down while you're running with that plunger it would hurt really bad! Can you please put the plunger away in the bathroom?"

I just think that there's a difference between this and "if you can't put it away, mommy will (which starts with the assumption that the child can't make that decision without the threat)."









The above works here when it's first thing in the morning; when there's only one child who needs to be redirected; or when said child isn't totally wired.

I agree with you that if 1-2-3 Magic is the line of first approach that it's just another control technique. I use a modified 1-2-3 as my last resort. I have two very spirited children; one is particularly strong-willed and the other is particularly impulsive. There are times when they (one, sometimes both







: ) are just past reasoning and counting is a way of communicating that the tone has changed to one of if they can't make a safe/positive choice, I'll help them. The end of a count is usually a time in or a help to fix what needs fixing, although I rarely get past one. It's sort of like the word "one" somehow gets through their jumbled synapses when all sorts of getting down to their level and calm redirection etc is just not making it through their energy level. I actually use it quite rarely, and again it's for those times that calm techniques just aren't getting past the excitement.

Another aside...my son would not stand still long enough for that many words, lol. It would be more like:
"falling on a plunger hurts. please put it away now"....then
"plungers are nasty. it's time for you to put it away"...then
"do not drag that dirty plunger along the walls, please put it away..." then "you need to put the plunger away now. that's one."
Followed by, from him "oh, alllllrigggghhht. I was just playing with it and I cleaned it in the sink first and dried it with your bath towel..."







:


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## mom22girls (May 5, 2005)

I've never used 123 Magic, but I use counting as a "transition" for my 3 year old. I will make a request and usually explain why, "it's time to get out of the tub so we can read stories (this is usually after the 'three more minutes in the tub)." Then give her a minute, and say - on the count of three, you get out of the tub, or I'll swing you out of the tub." This way, she knows what's coming and she makes the decision - gets out herself, or I get her out." there's never any "punishment" afterwards, just the completion of the task I requested of her...


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## FireFrog (Jun 14, 2006)

This is an interesting topic. I have used a variation on 1-2-3, but my is 5-4-3-2-1. When my DD was little (she's 12 now), I would hold up my hand and start counting backwards from 5. If I finished counting, then whatever choice she had before was mmade by me. The choice was always discussed before and the counting was never the first step.

I am also a high school teacher, and it is amazing how well this technique works for that age group, too. I'll admit, I am forced to be a bit more punitive with a room full of 15 year olds (as in, they would all lose 1 minute of "free-time"), then with my DD when she was little. But by the middle of the year, all I had to do was hold my hand up. No yelling, no pleading. Just a count backwards. Much easier.


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## SomedayMom (May 9, 2002)

Quote:

I've never used 123 Magic, but I use counting as a "transition" for my 3 year old. I will make a request and usually explain why, "it's time to get out of the tub so we can read stories (this is usually after the 'three more minutes in the tub)." Then give her a minute, and say - on the count of three, you get out of the tub, or I'll swing you out of the tub." This way, she knows what's coming and she makes the decision - gets out herself, or I get her out." there's never any "punishment" afterwards, just the completion of the task I requested of her...
That's pretty much waht I do with counting for DS too. I don't use time out with him, but I do count in that manner. That works very very well for us too.


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viriditas* 
Okay, so here is how I was imagining the situation in my oh-so-naive-and-inexperienced mind. Child is running with plunger. Parent gets child's attention, getting down on his level, hands on shoulders (assuming this can be done). Says something like, "It looks like you're having fun! But you know what? If you fall down while you're running with that plunger it would hurt really bad! Can you please put the plunger away in the bathroom?"

I just think that there's a difference between this and "if you can't put it away, mommy will (which starts with the assumption that the child can't make that decision without the threat)."

I'm detecting quite a bit of snarkiness in your response to me, at which I feel







:

Of course most of us would say something like that first. But I was talking about a time in which that either isn't an option for safety reasons, or because you have already spoken to the child about the situation, as BusyMommy described after that post. Once again, I don't use the 1,2,3 method, but I do the "the plunger needs to be put away right now. Who is going to do it?" method. And I do think there is a difference between saying, "are you going to put it away or should I do it?" and "If you can't put it away, then I'll have to." One is simply figuring out the means to the end that I've decided must happen. The other is phrased more like a punishment.


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## Aeress (Jan 25, 2005)

I believe that giving a child a choice between them doing it or you, isn't so much a threat, as it is, giving the child power over the choice. My dd is very into doing it herself, so I give her choices where she can decide to do it herself. She prefers this method...for now.


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## frenchie (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BusyMommy* 








I just had to pop back on... My ds was running through the house w/the toilet plunger shooting alien blasters and I asked him to put it back. He ignored me and continue sprinting and firing so I just said okay I'm happy to put it away for you 1....
and he said oh okay Mommy and put it back in the bathroom. He knew that on 3 I would've put it away thus depriving him of the joy/ownership of being the plunger master.
In this case (obviously) I don't see it as punitive at all.

Lots of diff contexts tho

Counting works for my son too. I rarely, if ever get to 3. He knows when I say the number 1, I mean business. He would rather be in control, so when I say "One", he will usually comply.


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## geekgolightly (Apr 21, 2004)

Counting works so well that at times all I have to say is, "Do you want me to start counting?" and he will do whatever was asked of him. Except picking up trash







:


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## Viriditas (Aug 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PikkuMyy* 
I'm detecting quite a bit of snarkiness in your response to me, at which I feel







:

Of course most of us would say something like that first. But I was talking about a time in which that either isn't an option for safety reasons, or because you have already spoken to the child about the situation, as BusyMommy described after that post. Once again, I don't use the 1,2,3 method, but I do the "the plunger needs to be put away right now. Who is going to do it?" method. And I do think there is a difference between saying, "are you going to put it away or should I do it?" and "If you can't put it away, then I'll have to." One is simply figuring out the means to the end that I've decided must happen. The other is phrased more like a punishment.

I really wasn't trying to be snarky, honest! I DO feel that I am naive and inexperienced when it comes to discipline, as my ds is still so young. Try reading my post in your head assuming the best intentions possible and maybe it won't seem so snarky?







I just wanted to share why counting didn't really sit right with me. I can see why it might be a good option as a last resort, but from several of the previous posts, I didn't take it as a matter of course that people were trying to reason first. It seemed like "I want such-and-such done and this is the quickest and easiest way."

From BusyMommy's post it seemed like she asked him to put it away, and when he didn't she resorted to counting. I didn't know if she had explained to him WHY he needed to put it away or validated his excitement in his new toy. All I was saying is that this might be a good thing to do first before power/control comes into the equation. In your own previous post you said "If he understood why it wasn't safe, he wouldn't be doing it." But don't kids sometimes need reminding? I don't see this as an excuse not to reason. But maybe I'm misunderstanding what you meant.

I'm really sorry if I offended anyone. I guess I'm not very good at conveying the right tone in my posts. I think I'll stick to lurking in this forum until I have a little more experience under my belt.







:


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

My son is 25 months, and I've just recently started counting exactly the way my mother did it, because I remember that it was effective without making me feel shamed or powerless or any other bad thing except mildly disappointed that I had to stop whatever I'd been doing.

Here is the most common example of how I use it:
me: "Okay, time to change your diaper. Please lie down on your back on the towel."
him: "Where fire truck?"
me: (getting diaper and wipe ready) "We will find the fire truck later. Right now it's time for a change. Lie down on the towel please."
him: "Mama read a story."
me: (kneeling down ready to change diaper) "Let's get your diaper changed so we can go make dinner. Lie down on your back on the towel."
him: (still rummaging through his books) "I do it!"
me: "Okay, you do it." (30 seconds later) "Come here and lie down on the towel. You do it!"
(He climbs onto the bed and rolls around laughing.)
me: "I will count to three. You will lie down on your back on the towel, or I will help you. One..."
(He climbs off the bed.)
me: "Two..."
(He lies face-down on the towel, laughing.)
me: "Three!"
(He rolls onto his back.)

I've never yet had him comply fully before I get to 3, but he does comply about 80% of times. (If I stop counting once he starts complying, he immediately stops complying.) The other 20%, I grab him and put him in position, accompanied by cries of, "I do it!"; I say, "You did not do it, so I am helping." and I try to keep my tone and gestures pleasant.

Sometimes he says, "Four!" very cheerfully as he complies, and that means he wants me to keep counting as I change his diaper or whatever it is.


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## SomedayMom (May 9, 2002)

You know, the first time I used counting as a transition it worked so well...DS was about 18 months and this is pretty much how that went.

We went to Circuit City to pick up something DH had ordered. DS noticed right away they had car carts and insisted on one. So I put him in and he drove around the store. As we were paying I told him, "mommy is almost done and we'll have to park the car so we can go home". As I pushed him over to where the carts were kept I told him we were driving to the parking lot and we'd have to park the car so we could go home. We got there and I told him to say bye bye to the car so we could go home. He holds on tight. I got down face to face with him and told him "we had fun driving the car. Now it's parked and we need to go home. Say bye bye car" Holds on tighter. "Simon we need to say bye bye car" Holds on tighter says "NO". So I said, "OK, I'm going to count to 10 and you can play with the car until I get there, then we need to get out and go home". I counted to 10, he willingly said "bye bye car" and we left. No fight. It works, and it doesn't seem to me that that belittles him at all. It gives him time to make that transition. What would have seemed belittling to me would have been to pry his little hands off the steering wheel and drag him away kicking and screaming when I can make it easier for both of us.

I do use it now when a decision needs to be made and nothing else has worked. I can say we need to do A or B, which would you like. I might repeat that 3 times. Then I will say, we need to do A or B. Mommy will count to 5 and you can decide or I will decide. I count to 5 now, it was 10 when he was younger. He usually decides before then or I do follow through and make the decision. This is a great child, very sweet, very polite, a great listener, but he's 2. Sometimes I do have to make the decision for him.


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## frenchie (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viriditas* 
It seemed like "I want such-and-such done and this is the quickest and easiest way."


You'd be amazed at how often we all fall into this. Is it a *bad* thing? I don't think so.....we're only human. An explination is great, but sometimes it gets overwhelming, explaining things over and over in detail several times a day. It gets overwhelming for the child too. There will be *plenty* of times you just. want. it. to. get. done. There are days where I have all the patience in the world, and other days that it is worn extremely thin by 8:00 a.m.







I find the times I need to use counting are the days when my son just ignores everything I say, doesn't want to hear explinations, doesn't *want* to have choices....he just wants me to do everything for him.


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## BoysBoysBoys! (Feb 16, 2007)

I find the counting method to be MAGIC with my sons. I don't even know why it works and I don't really care, but it does work! WOOHOO.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

This is a way old thread, but I just wanted to revive it to say - I've been trying this for a few days with dd now, and it is really wonderful for us. The "No Talking, No Emotion" rules really are the key I think. I give dd explanations now for her "information," not as a ploy to try to get her to do what I want. When she does something upsetting, instead of floundering around in my emotions, I just stick to the plan and count. I don't think the imposed consequence is so much the "magic" as the fact that I am communicating more effectively. "That's 1" says to dd - "I don't like that, and we aren't going to neogotiate about it - the choice is yours to make *right now.*" Her attitude is really improving, and she's much more cheerful. I think this is a good technique for parents who struggle with putting too much emotion into their parenting - it has really restored my feelings of having control as the parent.


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## joanq (Oct 27, 2005)

I've been using counting with my almost 2 yo (he loves counting and can get to 13). NOT for punishment though, more for a warning period since he doesn't understand time yet.
SO, I want him to sit down so he can put on his shoes. He doesn't want to. I say "That is ok, so mama will count to 10 then we will put on our shoes". I count to 10 and he will usually sit down and do it. Even if he says "NO NO NO" during the counting process he seems to go along with the program once I reach 10 without any fuss.
I'm sure he will figure out that there is nothing magical about 10 soon, and then we will have to try another tactic!


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## Spanish Rose (Jan 29, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
My son is 25 months, and I've just recently started counting exactly the way my mother did it, because I remember that it was effective without making me feel shamed or powerless or any other bad thing except mildly disappointed that I had to stop whatever I'd been doing.

Here is the most common example of how I use it:
me: "Okay, time to change your diaper. Please lie down on your back on the towel."
him: "Where fire truck?"
me: (getting diaper and wipe ready) "We will find the fire truck later. Right now it's time for a change. Lie down on the towel please."
him: "Mama read a story."
me: (kneeling down ready to change diaper) "Let's get your diaper changed so we can go make dinner. Lie down on your back on the towel."
him: (still rummaging through his books) "I do it!"
me: "Okay, you do it." (30 seconds later) "Come here and lie down on the towel. You do it!"
(He climbs onto the bed and rolls around laughing.)
me: "I will count to three. You will lie down on your back on the towel, or I will help you. One..."
(He climbs off the bed.)
me: "Two..."
(He lies face-down on the towel, laughing.)
me: "Three!"
(He rolls onto his back.)

I've never yet had him comply fully before I get to 3, but he does comply about 80% of times. (If I stop counting once he starts complying, he immediately stops complying.) The other 20%, I grab him and put him in position, accompanied by cries of, "I do it!"; I say, "You did not do it, so I am helping." and I try to keep my tone and gestures pleasant.

Sometimes he says, "Four!" very cheerfully as he complies, and that means he wants me to keep counting as I change his diaper or whatever it is.









Becca, you sound like a wonderful mother. Keep up the good work!


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
My son is 25 months, and I've just recently started counting exactly the way my mother did it, because I remember that it was effective without making me feel shamed or powerless or any other bad thing except mildly disappointed that I had to stop whatever I'd been doing.

Here is the most common example of how I use it:
me: "Okay, time to change your diaper. Please lie down on your back on the towel."
him: "Where fire truck?"
me: (getting diaper and wipe ready) "We will find the fire truck later. Right now it's time for a change. Lie down on the towel please."
him: "Mama read a story."
me: (kneeling down ready to change diaper) "Let's get your diaper changed so we can go make dinner. Lie down on your back on the towel."
him: (still rummaging through his books) "I do it!"
me: "Okay, you do it." (30 seconds later) "Come here and lie down on the towel. You do it!"
(He climbs onto the bed and rolls around laughing.)
me: "I will count to three. You will lie down on your back on the towel, or I will help you. One..."
(He climbs off the bed.)
me: "Two..."
(He lies face-down on the towel, laughing.)
me: "Three!"
(He rolls onto his back.)

I've never yet had him comply fully before I get to 3, but he does comply about 80% of times. (If I stop counting once he starts complying, he immediately stops complying.) The other 20%, I grab him and put him in position, accompanied by cries of, "I do it!"; I say, "You did not do it, so I am helping." and I try to keep my tone and gestures pleasant.

Sometimes he says, "Four!" very cheerfully as he complies, and that means he wants me to keep counting as I change his diaper or whatever it is.









This sounds like my house...only for some reason, I just *started* having to do this, and DS turned 3 at the end of January. I don't punish him, and I don't say, "that's 1". Basically, if I ask him to do something and he's not doing it in a reasonable amount of time, I say, "Ok bud, you can do it or I'll do it" just matter of fact (not threatening) and either start a count up or a count down from 10, 5, or 3 deending on the situation. This is generally after a conversation about what needs to be done and why, as we've always been explainers and discussers here - I'm not a dictator. Then at the end of my count, either he does it, or I start to do it and he says, I'll do it! and then does it. And that's it. No unishments, no admonition for not doing whatever it was, it just gets done. I'm a little







: that this just started now because he's a little older than it usually seems to start, but it's working fine. I don't "punish" him in any way when I get to the end of my count and whatever it is isn't done, I just do whatever it is. I mean, the fact that he has to stop or start something I ask him to may be an indirect "punishment", but it's certainly not me trying to teach him a lesson or anything; it's just to get stuff done when the regular explaining and offering alternatives doesn't work, and he's getting a little spacey on me.


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## PreggieUBA2C (Mar 20, 2007)

My husband sometimes counts. I hate it. I hate it because with him it's fraught with tension and usually means some sort of punishment- going to room alone, leaving room, isolation of some sort. For me, the stress of the lack of interim communication of counting is too much and doesn't help to foster an atmosphere of mutual respect in our home.

What I mean by this is, with the counting method, I make my request/expectation known, then if dc doesn't comply, I count, and all the while, I am watching him to see what he'll do, hoping he'll choose the right thing and not knowing at all what he's thinking, what process he's going through. Currently, what I do in situations where compliance is necessary is to tell dc what is needed and then if dc says 'no' or gives excuse for not doing it, I tell him right away that this is what we're doing because xyz and I am willing to wait while he does it but happy to help if he would like me to do so. Then he responds, and I know where he's at and can continue the conversation/act accordingly.

I am not opposed to counting for others (since I don't know how they live or what their needs are- unless it leads to abuse, of course), but in our house, it isn't salutary and what I've been doing makes us feel so much better about the outcome even when I have to intervene because a valuable and memorable communication took place; my children and I have further strengthened our relationship and ability to communicate.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

I just wanted to clarify - there's lot's of different counting methods flying around in this thread - in 1-2-3 Magic, counting is for "stop" behaviors (or "start" beahviors that can be completed in under 2 minutes.) And it is only for children over 2. "Counting frought with tension" would be incorrect by this method because it would violate the "no emotion" rule. Counting should be "matter of fact" not threatening.

The reason for the "no talking" rule with counting is to avoid "overparenting" - nagging, griping, lecturing. ("Come on lie down." "We're not going to play with the fire truck now." "Come on I told you to lie down." "Lie down now!" "Why don't you ever listen?" SMACK!) It may be a bridge to a better way of parening, or it may just be the type of parenting that will work for some families/parents. Alot of examples of GD show an *outstanding* level of patience that some people just don't have - by nature or by nature of their current set of circumstances. Some people are so zen they can go through childbirth easily and poo poo childbirth education and "methods" - other people feel they need to practice a reliable and tested method like hypnosis to stay in control of their response to the intensity of labor. Parenting is the same - some people are naturally low key and don't get bothered by much, other people are sensitive by nature and need to maintain a balance and may need a "method" to stay on top of their response to the stressors of parenting.

The biggest thing I count for with dd is *whining*. While I don't want her to stuff all her emotions - *I* am too sensitive by nature to handle a constant barrage of emotional outbursts all day long. If giving her 2 minutes to stand in the foyer and collect herself saves wear and tear on our relationship, then I'm all for it!


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## verde (Feb 11, 2007)

I haven't actually used the counting method but I have no problem with the concept at all. I've seen friends use it successfully with their kids and I think it's a perfectly reasonable method of GD.

When I was little my dad used it and me and my sibs responded immediately. In fact we thought we were lucky! We had next door neighbor playmates whose parents used to make them bend over a chair and then paddle them -- HARD. They always told us how easy we had it compared to them and they were right. My dad used to count to five and if we still hadn't complied then we had to sit in the corner for 5 minutes -- which was nothing compared to our neighbors. And we all adored our father who truly was a sweetheart. I'm certain in his mind that he, too, was practicing GD. I guess it's all a matter of perspective.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
I have to wonder if any of these children were afraid of counting, or if this in any way impeded them learning math, if they associated counting with punishment.

When I was teaching my son to count, I asked him what came after 3, and he replied, 'take tubby tape away.'








:

I agree, the only thing it teaches is 1 2 3, mommy does something I don't like.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

I guess it's all perspective, isn't it? Because I would say your little guy is pretty smart - he knows what to expect with the counting. That's the whole point of the counting. Did you ask him why mommy would take the tubby tape away? to see if he understood the entire lesson?

I don't understand why this would make you sad - unless you were ambivalent to the method to begin with.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

it just made me feel bad. I'm still struggling with what methods of discipline work. My dh seems to have gotten my ds to pretty much do what is expected of him, but I am having trouble with dd. I don't see grounding or taking things away as making a bit of difference, neither does timeout, and I am running out of ideas at this point. But I just remembered that incident with my son from many years ago, and it seems to me that different methods work with different kids.

8)


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## naturegirl7 (Jan 27, 2005)

I like the book 1-2-3 magic. I forget who it is by. It details the use and abuse of the 1-2-3 and time out methods, and describes how to use it in a way that is developmentally appropriate and "good" for your child.

Yes it uses a counting aspect but (from what I remember - it has been about 6 years) it emphasizes the use of redirection before you ever even get to the point of counting. ANd explaining as you go along - not negotiating but explaining the consequences for behavior. and about using the "time out" as a "time in" to remove the child from the situation and use the time to talk about better ways to handle the situation for next time. Using the "time out/in" for conversation, additional redirection, problem solving, brainstorming, etc BETWEEN parent and child not just lecturing your child. It really seemed to be about helping your child step back from the situation and learn skills to make more socially appropriate choices.

I used this method while teaching preschool as teh school's discpline policy was time outs - many of the staff used poorly and completely wrong.
I had 13 toddlers ages 2-4 all by myself with no aids. Including 3 little boys who were high spirited, high energy brilliant children who had already been labeled by teh director, other teachers and staff, and even their own parents as "problem kids" One was even scheduled to be evaluated for ADHD at 2 1/2!!! I introduced my version of this method (I tweaked anything I didn't completely agree with) and within 3 weeks I had peace in my classroom. It was rare that I ever made it past 1 or 2.
Not to say we didn't have lots of "behavior problems" or what I call toddlers being toddlers. But the kids knew what behavior was expected (setting clear limits is key) and I would get right down on the flour with them and help them figure out a way to share rather than say "we really need to share, that is 1" I also used a lot of goal direct motivation. One little boy LOVED art time, so instead of once a week, I made time for it every single morning (and again in th eafternoon as free art time) during circle time (his hardest time to sit and focus) I could gently remind him "so-and-so, can you please sit back with us in circle? We really love when you participate with us, and as soon as we are done with circle, we are going to have art time." Never threatened no art time, just extended transition time, and reminded him that his favorite activity was coming up really soon - which made it easier for him to make it thru circle. I had parents asking what in the world I did to "make" their child listen - I respected their feelings, set clear limits, set realistic expectations, offered choiices, and helped them learn to control how they reacted. 1-2-3 Magic was not the "cure" but it was a good place for me to start. DH struggles with GD when it comes to our son who is only 2, so I have given him this book to read. Atleast then I know he will be using the method "correctly" vs how his family insists on using it with our nieces. HTH!


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## MamaAidan (May 12, 2006)

We use 1-2-3 with 2.5yo ds how many of you also use it... to give him an opportunity to do it "BY SELF!!!!!!!!!!!!!", or for one of us to do it for him... We very rarely get to 3, and when we do we complete whatever task it is for him, but I also give him a chance to du it again on his own. very rare we get to that point. We have schedules, and I honestly don't have time or patience to watch him and discuss why I need to get to work on time as he tests how long he can draw things out. It works for us. I can see that its usefulness will be limited to this stage of having to do everything by himself.

On a funny note, a couple of nights ago we were finished reading our nite-nite books. ds wanted more, and we explained that books were done and it was time to turn out the light. So ds shouted at the top of his voice, "READ BOOKS ONE TWO THREE!!" We laughed the whole night long.


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