# the no-spanking law in CA?



## *mama moose* (Oct 12, 2006)

anyone have any info on this? I just saw it on the news local news. DH thinks its "crossing the line" into being too invasive and gives government an excuse to butt into peoples personal lives (though he is anti-spanking as well), and while I don't think it will pass, I think its a good idea. I mean, its illegal to hit adults, why not kids? any thoughts? I'm torn because I see what DH is saying about the government abusing it, but I also feel that spanking is so wrong and widespread it warrants legal action to help stop it.


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## Papooses (Dec 20, 2006)

Quote:

SACRAMENTO - A new bill wants to outlaw parents from spanking their children. The assemblywoman sponsoring the measure wants to protect those who can't defend themselves, but is it taking governing too far?

Spanking is a touchy issue for many people. Some use it. Others don't. An assemblywoman wants to ban all forms, even a slap on the hand.

Speaker Pro Temp Sally Lieber plans to introduce a bill that would ban any form of spanking of kids less than three years old. That's includes spanking hands, faces or bottoms. Lieber said, "That would include slapping, spanking, smacking, hitting, punching, any striking of a child."

Lieber said, "The borders begin to blur and there ought to be a bright line in the law that says no hitting a child 3 years or under."

We found parents on both sides of the spanking issue, but many, whether they agreed with spanking or not, felt the government shouldn't tell parents how to parent.

Karen Fontaine is both a parent and grandparent. She said, "What else are they going to do next, are they going to take over and raise our children?"

Kary Mansu is also a parent, "I think it's a moral issue. How do you put a moral issue into law? How do you control it?"

Copyright © 2007, KTXL
When the only citizens of our country who are legally allowed to be beaten on the buttox are children & pron stars, we have a problem -- not even prisoners are allowed to be spanked/swatted/etc. (hm, outside of Abu Graib anyway)....

Besides, when Sweden passed a similar law something like over 70% of the population condoned spanking, but I remember that within 10 years it dropped to barely double digits & they have not suffered any increase in crime or mental health issues because of it.

It just doesn't make any sense that a parent can cause sore bottoms when other methods work at least as well, but the same person cannot use spanking in the workplace or against any person of the same size.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

I'm ok with it...but I'm not in california. Anyway, as long as the law is supported by appropriate social aide, I'm all for it. I think that to say that parents cannot hit their child by law and just to leave it at that is wrong. There needs to be social support, free classes, public information supporting alternatives, lots of publicity for the law and how to discipline gently.

Without good support, the law will alienate a lot of parents.

Lisa


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## Eben'sMama (Jun 29, 2006)

I am in complete support of such a bill. Spanking, even a slap on the hand, is violence and violence is wrong, both morally and spiritually. Children need to be protected from misguided adults who cannot control their own anger or who lack the emotional or intellectual resources to discipline their children without resorting to physical abuse.


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## Mamma Mia (Aug 3, 2005)

On the surface I think it's good. Battery is battery is battery. And if I can be arrested for battery if I so much as spit on an adult, then why are kids treated differently? But I have to say that I reeeaally worry about the mamas who are struggling every day to break the cycle of abuse and trying to be GD and slip up. Should they pay $1000 fine or go to jail for a year? I mean, are their children served by the parents having so much less money (that amount would break my family) or by losing a parent for a year (another thing that would financially break us and more)? I see serious problems with it.


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## Jster (Apr 22, 2003)

I think it's a great idea. But why is it okay to spank kids older than 3???


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## jkg (May 28, 2005)

I think it's great. I'm all for freedom of parenting style, but hitting is hitting, no matter how you look at it. I wish my state would adopt such a law.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

A few years ago, the Supreme Court of Canada made some laws about spanking. Children's rights groups and others thought they would outlaw spanking altogether, but they didn't. They said that spanking can only happen with a child between 2 and 12, on the bum, with an open hand.

So, it is better than nothing, but I wish they would have completely outlawed it.

Spanking is illegal in Sweden, I believe.


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## Papooses (Dec 20, 2006)

Spanking is illegal in various nations....

I do agree with Mama Mia, but I'm optimistic that there would be an education/support component -- maybe I'm *too* idealistic?


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I don't believe that making something forbidden, even with consequences and punishments eliminates or addresses the underlying needs of the parent. IMO, parents could learn non-physical tools of conflict resolution. Laws and Rules don't teach *what to do* instead. But, corporal punishment is still used in the school systems of 21 states of the US. So, I rather focus energy on making corporal punishment obsolete, than going after parents who haven't learned alternative "discipline" methods. When the public educational culture embraces physical pain as a means of modifying behavior, it is hard to expect parents to do otherwise.

I am a proponent of learning without punishment, not laws with punishments.

Pat


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

I favor a law banning domestic violence against children of ALL ages. But I don't favor penal consequences at this point in time. Hitting children is simply too engrained in our culture not to put some serious education and outreach out there in combination with an advisory law (or one with mandatory parenting classes, counseling or support as a consequence).

Other countries that have gone this route have experienced tremendous success -- I lived in one (Norway) and loved that ALL Norwegians were protected from domestic violence. I say, it's about time the U.S. stepped up to the plate and similarly protected its children. Violence against human beings of all ages is wrong, wrong, wrong, and a very appropriate place for the gov't to draw a bright line.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama* 
I favor a law banning domestic violence against children of ALL ages. But I don't favor penal consequences at this point in time. Hitting children is simply too engrained in our culture not to put some serious education and outreach out there in combination with an advisory law (or one with mandatory parenting classes, counseling or support as a consequence).

Other countries that have gone this route have experienced tremendous success -- I lived in one (Norway) and loved that ALL Norwegians were protected from domestic violence. I say, it's about time the U.S. stepped up to the plate and similarly protected its children. Violence against human beings of all ages is wrong, wrong, wrong, and a very appropriate place for the gov't to draw a bright line.


Peacelovingmama, I am not going to disagree with you; but I believe I want to be the change I wish to see in the world.







And that modeling an alternative path is more effective than making parents legally defensive about their behaviors through threats and intimidation. Laws and the lexicon of "wrongdoing" doesn't promote communication and mentorship dynamics, ime. I believe that effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that _parents_ are born innately good and that our role as a society is to nurture their spirits as they learn about conflict resolution, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective teaching presumes that _parents_ have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems.







:

I trust that modeling compassion and cooperative problem solving changes the world.

Btw, _our government_ chooses violence every day. It is parents making non-violent choices that changes society and therefore government, imo. We each have the power of influence in our communities, more than any law. We can advocate for awareness of feelings and needs and facilitate solutions which engage *cooperation* of both parent and child.

Respectfully,
Pat


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
Peacelovingmama, I am not going to disagree with you; but I believe I want to be the change I wish to see in the world.







And that modeling an alternative path is more effective than making parents legally defensive about their behaviors through threats and intimidation. Laws and the lexicon of "wrongdoing" doesn't promote communication and mentorship dynamics, ime. I believe that effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that _parents_ are born innately good and that our role as a society is to nurture their spirits as they learn about conflict resolution, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective teaching presumes that _parents_ have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems.







:

I trust that modeling compassion and cooperative problem solving changes the world.

Btw, _our government_ chooses violence every day. It is parents making non-violent choices that changes society and therefore government, imo. We each have the power of influence in our communities, more than any law. We can advocate for awareness of feelings and needs and facilitate solutions which engage *cooperation* of both parent and child.

Respectfully,
Pat

I love your attitude and worldview! And I agree on many levels.

I do differ in that I feel that an advisory (NOT penal) law would accelerate the change we need to protect children. Just as we needed laws to protect adults from domestic violence. It is interesting to note that a vast majority of Swedes supported hitting children when their law went into effect and now a vast majority (generations after the law took effect) disagree with hitting people.

In any event, I'm glad that so many people here find violence against children to be wrong, no matter which way they would go about fostering non-violence.


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## guestmama9915 (Jul 29, 2004)

I live in CA, I doubt it'll pass, I wish it would, though!!!!

I just heard about this on another forum... non-AP forum, of course, where people are claiming they will need to move to another country soon. Someone even mentioned some law in Florida which made it illegal to smoke in the car with people under 18yrs old is crossing the line.







:

Don't get it! I knew I would find supporters here.









This is a small step to show people that things are changing. Hitting children is wrong. Unfortunately, a lot of people just don't see it that way. I'm all for anything that helps change people's views.


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## happeeevraftr (Mar 27, 2005)

I am definitely for a law banning the hitting of children, even if we can start with only children under three. (Maybe three years of not "being able" to hit would lead to parents coming up with better ways to teach kids, so they won't have to resort to it even when it's "legal".)

I think just having the law will help send the message that it's not okay. It's a moral issue. If we have a law against it, it means we think it's wrong to hit children. If there is no law, we (as a country/state) are condoning it.

However, I agree that punishing the parents isn't the best way to go. Maybe the "consequence" should be having to take some parenting classes. (Kind of like traffic school is an option if you get a ticket, as long as it's your first ticket in so many months, at least, that's the way it is here.)

But then, who decides what kind of parenting class/theory should be taught? It would likely end up being a class teaching other ways to "hurt" children that don't involve physical punishment, right? Which may help, but when those things don't work, the frustrated parents will feel like they still have to resort to spanking, because "the other stuff doesn't work."

But at least a law would ensure that parenting classes and books by pro-hitting "experts" would NOT be condoned by our government.

So, I don't know about the punishment for parents breaking the law, but I definitely think having a law would go along way in helping people realize how wrong it is to hit anyone.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

I'm pretty sure it's against the law so spank in Canada.

I love the idea of that law, but indeed, all children should be protected by it, not just those under 3.


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## mykdsmomy (Oct 10, 2004)

I think it's a dangerous law, to be honest. What happens when there's a mama with an autistic child who is trying to get that child into a carseat....she's holding the child down and the child is hitting and fighting her........it can often look like a struggle to many people and like the mother "must" be abusing/hitting the child during the struggle or at home.
I'm against hitting children and I think there needs to be more education out there....but passing a law is not the way to go (right now). People are still too close to the spanking era.....there needs to be more education before such a law should be passed to protect children from being taken from their parents unnecessarily


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Legislating morality is a scary thought to me. Whose morality? There is a strong religious political faction who is attempting to do just that.

Pat


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
Legislating morality is a scary thought to me. Whose morality? There is a strong religious political faction who is attempting to do just that.

Pat


I don't view laws against violence as improperly "legislating morality." They are for the health and welfare of our citizens. It is illegal for men to hit their wives, although it used to be legal. It is illegal to beat animals. It is illegal to have sex with children. Those could all be viewed as "legislating morality" but I am ok with those laws because they protect the vulnerable. Who could be more vulnerable than young children?


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

This is a matter of safety. Many injuries happen without a parent ever intending to "beat" a child. The fact is that most spanking happens with reactive anger, and in those moments parents misjudge their strength. Suddenly a smack in the face is a ruptured eardrum, a blow with a belt becomes a split lip when the child turns to run away. Kids are bruised all the time from physical punishment.

If it's okay to pass a law saying parents must put our kids in carseats, then we can handle this law. It is no different to me. Parents are not lined up behind bars for car seat infractions. People understand that a child might unbuckle themselves, or that a parent might rush a child to the ER without remembering to buckle them in to a seat. We see parents driving around without carseats ALL the time. But the expectation is that they use them...and so most of the time, most parents obey the law.


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
This is a matter of safety. Many injuries happen without a parent ever intending to "beat" a child. The fact is that most spanking happens with reactive anger, and in those moments parents misjudge their strength. Suddenly a smack in the face is a ruptured eardrum, a blow with a belt becomes a split lip when the child turns to run away. Kids are bruised all the time from physical punishment.

If it's okay to pass a law saying parents must put our kids in carseats, then we can handle this law. It is no different to me. Parents are not lined up behind bars for car seat infractions. People understand that a child might unbuckle themselves, or that a parent might rush a child to the ER without remembering to buckle them in to a seat. We see parents driving around without carseats ALL the time. But the expectation is that they use them...and so most of the time, most parents obey the law.

I agree. I am a prosecutor and I have seen countless cases of spankings escalating and resulting in serious injuries and/or death. Often, the spanking is inflicted on a very young child (under age 2) and I frequently see fatalities around potty-learning and sleeping issues. Granted, one core issue is education/ignorance of child development but a law would certainly send a strong message to millions of parents. Plus, I'd love to see a law like this generate some real diaglogue around violence and why we still condone it when it comes to little ones. I don't see why people are so protective of the "right" to inflict pain on small children.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I certainly understand that physical (and emotional and sexual) abuse of children happens. And there are already laws which don't stop it. And there are consequences, punishments and interventions. Self-control in the heat of anger, can not be effectively legislated, imo. The "support and services" of CPS already has an adversarial reputation. I agree that non-punitive resources, education regarding developmental phases, and most importantly respite childcare are needed for struggling parents. I believe that proactive resources for supporting our most vulnerable citizens nurture safety.

Pat


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Somewhat OT, but DH and DS (19yo) were horsing around today and DH jokingly said "I'll smack you upside the head!" or something along those lines

I chimed in: "But that's illegal honey! He is an adult already"

And then I thought to myself "But it would be perfectly legal to smack my 6yo









"
Not that I would ever...

Isn't it ironic? (As in sad "ironic")


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by **mama moose** 
DH thinks its "crossing the line" into being too invasive and gives government an excuse to butt into peoples personal lives (though he is anti-spanking as well),

Does he think that the laws that prevent adults from hitting other adults are too invasive? How are laws against children from being hit any more invasive than laws against spousal abuse? (not picking on your dh- my dp's immediate response would probably be the same as your dh's, and he's the most anti-spanking person I know!)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peacelovingmama* 
I favor a law banning domestic violence against children of ALL ages. But I don't favor penal consequences at this point in time. Hitting children is simply too engrained in our culture not to put some serious education and outreach out there in combination with an advisory law (or one with mandatory parenting classes, counseling or support as a consequence).

Ita. It's just one step, to get awareness out. Education needs to happen, and imo, punishment doesn't teach


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

I'm all for it. And I'm a Libertarian. I would like the government to stay far, far away from me. But I see Canada's law with no hitting of children under two as more than reasonable. I'd call it a good start. The CA law isn't banning hitting; it's banning hitting of children under three (who probably end up with the most injuries from physical punishment).


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

I think it's wonderful. And I'm not even convinced that many people will be shelling out fines and doing jail time - I just think that it might make future parents think carefully about how they want to discipline their kids and perhaps they will research alternatives. If something is declared "illegal" it becomes very powerful. And maybe it will make the "I turned out fine" crowd think twice.


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## mama2mygirl (Dec 14, 2005)

I read the proposal last night and I think it's actually for kids three and under. I think it's a great start.
I think without a law to change things, people are going to just continue to think of spanking as normal. I mean, it was legal to hit a grown woman with a stick no bigger than your thumb not that long ago. I think the change in the law came before the change in attitude. It was illegal to beat an ANIMAL in this country before it was illegal to beat a child. I think sometimes change has to be forced.
I don't think the law will be passed. San Jose is about an hour away from where I am and boy is everyone in an uproar about it. But I think it would be great if it was. There are actually free parenting classes available here. More would be better because I agree that you can't just leave a parent with no ideas on how to parent. (Where my mom lives in CA there are actually free what I'd consider GD classes! Okay, they're five bucks, but still, for a nonviolent communication class that's amazingly inexpensive.)Spanking is ingrained in the communties here and that will be hard to change. But if the change is forced then alternative forms of discipline with have to be used.
Oh, and the violent crimes in Sweden went way DOWN after they passed the no-spanking laws.


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## mcs (Apr 20, 2005)

i would say that we can only WISH for something so wonderful to happen. i mean, i has to start somewhere.
it seems so obvious. sooo obvoious. hitting is wrong.
mcs


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## Mamma Mia (Aug 3, 2005)

I would have no problem with this law if it wasn't punitive. I would like to see CA ban all spanking, but being punitive isn't the answer.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Bumping so I don't have to retype my opinion in the other thread.









Pat


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## Breeder (May 28, 2006)

Hitting is not a moral issue. If you can't legally smack your co-worker in the mouth for whining why on earth should you be able to do so to a child?

This is about health and saftey, it isn't a personal freedom to be able to do physical harm to your children. It's an oversight that I can watch a parent smacking their kid repeatedly in the grocery store and no one does a thing (not even the uniformed policemen present) if that person had been smacking another adult, the parent would have been arrested. It seems awfully unbalanced.

I don't like the thought of the government telling people how to parent but I don't feel like striking a child is a parenting "choice", it's harmful.


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