# Are there any gentle discipliners who use "spanking" as one of their tools?



## FlippyHippy (Nov 25, 2009)

Our dd is 15 months old, and we've really started dealing with direct defiance in the past month or so. In the past it seemed all we need to direct her about was what was ok to touch or not ok to touch (ie, the TV, scissors, mommy's cell phone, cords). We would normally clap our hands together to get her attention, and then say "don't touch that". She's always been very good about stepping away from whatever it was without fussing.

About a month ago she started "growing up", and part of that I know is what we're dealing with now. If told not to touch something that she's known for a long time not to touch, she'll look at us and touch it anyway. If asked not to throw her cup on the floor every time she puts it down, she will do it anyway. A couple days ago she started saying "Don't" to me and hitting me when she was not perfectly happy with me.

I was raised with spanking as a way my parents disciplined, but I haven't felt that it was an appropriate response up until now. When she doesn't know something isn't safe or ok to do, I don't want to use physical punishment. I think explanation and distraction are much better, because she's not doing it to go against what we've said.

But now it seems like we're at a point in communication where she doesn't understand cause-and-effect yet by just verbally explaining it ("when you hit mommy she is sad. Please don't hit mommy") and yet I'm not wanting to let certain behaviors continue and become habitual. Neither my dh or myself want to spank her with an object or even full hand anywhere on her body, but we've been flicking her leg or hand with our fingers recently when she's purposefully disobedient to something we know she understands.

Any comments on that? We're still working through our feelings and thoughts on discipline, since we were both raised with spanking being the primary, but aren't sure we agree with that. I think we both feel currently that it should not be the only, or primary, form of discipline but that it has a place as a tool.

I think another thing that isn't helping is that we have a friend who is very against spanking, but who we see the methods she uses NOT working with her 2 1/2 year old at all. Her ds has physically hurt my dd many times, and is only talked to about how that is not ok and it hurts her. He continues doing it whenever we visit, so much so that my daughter is afraid of him. It's hard for my dh to want to fully advocate that type of parenting when he sees the negative (and honestly hard for me too).

I just want to see some discussion, why you have chosen what you're doing, if you are ok with spanking (or spatting...) as a tool how you use it ... etc

Thanks!


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## woodchick (Jan 5, 2007)

I don't think you'll find anyone here who will advocate physical punishment.

At 15mos your LO is still just a baby. She is testing boundries and trying to see what you'll do about it. Instead of flicking her leg, why not take that second to redirect her to another activity. Or make things safe for her. We use far more 'yes' language at our house than 'no'.

For example, if our DD2 (14mos) is messing with the remote, I quickly take out one battery. Then she can't do much harm.

Or "It's not nice to hit Mommy- You can use your hands to hit this drum."

This age is all about redirection. Constant redirection.


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## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

Hitting another person is not gentle, no matter how you look at it.
15 months is a VERY difficult age and nothing seems to "work". As you said, your friend's talking to her son doesn't work, your hitting your dd doesn't work.

The way I see it, you have two choices: you can either spank your dd until she outgrows this stage or you can rely on prevention, distraction and redirection until she outgrows the stage.

And you can't teach her not to hit by hitting her.

I hope this can help:
http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/tenreasons.html

Take care


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## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

I found redirection to work well at that age. Fifteen months is just a baby. She's starting to figure out that she's a separate person from you and she's getting even more curious about her world now that she can move around on her own more. Pain from a parent doesn't need to be any part of that equation -- everything she's doing is developmentally appropriate, and redirection is a developmentally appropriate way for you, as her parents, to let her know what's ok and what isn't.

At this stage I found myself using physical redirection just as much as I did when my littles were crawlers. If a kiddo was about to play with a power cord but wasn't in immediate danger, I would pair the words "You may not touch this. Ouch! You MAY touch this." with me showing them something new, leading them by the hand somewhere else, or picking them up and moving them if necessary. At this stage, it wasn't enough to show them something inches away from what they're already focused on. It often took a greater move -- they have greater range now and more ability to focus on what they want, so it often takes a greater distraction to effectively redirect their attention. If a fit was pitched because a kiddo reeeeeeeally wanted to be throwing that food on the floor or playing with that power outlet, I'd reiterate the rule simply ("Food goes in the mouth, not on the floor.") and we'd change scenery entirely -- go outside, go in a different room, find something radically different to do.

It takes repetition. That doesn't mean you're doing it wrong. Do you know anyone who's ever only flicked their child once? Spanked their child just once? Of course not. Be prepared to use redirection repeatedly over the next year or so -- this is very much an age of exploration and with that comes the age of learning safe boundaries and safe people to go to for help in learning those safe boundaries. You really want to be that safe person in your child's life.


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## mrsfrenchy (Apr 14, 2008)

Think about the flawed logic behind flicking her. She's hitting you when she's not happy with you--you don't want her to do this. You feel its an inappropriate response on her part and want her to learn diffferent ways to express her feelings, right? But then when you're displeased with her, you hit or flick her. So there seems to be a double standard. She's not going to learn that hitting is inappropriate if you also hit (flick, whatever, its all physical). She may temporarily stop because she doesn't want to get flicked, but she won't learn what you're trying to teach her.

Distraction is a big one. Distract her from the object. If she touches it and won't leave it alone, physcially remove her from it. Honor the impulse. This especially applies to hitting. "stop. hitting hurts mommy. give me a high five instead. hit the pillow instead." (demonstrate with sound effects, to make it fun). Don't give her attention for inappropriate behavior. When DD1 was that age and she hit me, I would put her down, saying 'hitting hurts. you need to be gentle" . She normally wanted me to pick her up more than she wanted to continue hitting. When she asked to get up again, I would ask her to show me 'gentle' and then pick her up.

Phrase things in 'yes' and not 'no' Like above, instead of (or accompanying) "don't hit", say "be gentle, give hugs/pats/whatever" Or "the vase is not for touching, its just for looking" They need to be shown an alternative behavior at this age. "blocks are not for throwing. but we can get your balls and throw those!" or "blocks are not for throwing, but we can build a _big, tall_ tower!" Hearing 'no' over and over gets old (no matter what age you are) gets old. Try to say 'yes [to a more appropriate action] before (and more often than) you say no'


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## mrsfrenchy (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FlippyHippy* 

I think another thing that isn't helping is that we have a friend who is very against spanking, but who we see the methods she uses NOT working with her 2 1/2 year old at all. Her ds has physically hurt my dd many times, and is only talked to about how that is not ok and it hurts her. He continues doing it whenever we visit, so much so that my daughter is afraid of him. It's hard for my dh to want to fully advocate that type of parenting when he sees the negative (and honestly hard for me too).

I wanted to comment on this also. If it were my two year old, I would use the approach she's using, but I would also do a few other things. We would talk a lot about appropriate playdate behavior at home and on the way there. He would know that if he hurts his friends, we'll have to leave. And then I would stick to that. At the first 'hurtful' action towards the other child, we'd probably step into another room, remind him that its not ok and ask if we need to go home. If he seemed to straighten up a bit, we might stay a bit longer, (but with me keeping a very close eye on them). At the next offense, we'd leave. If he were being rough and defiant during this conversation about not hitting, though, we'd leave right away.

granted, that might take a couple of months of leaving playdates early, but he would get it eventually and other kids wouldn't get hurt in the process.

All this to say that you can do more (and ensure that your kid isn't constantly hurting other kids) without hitting/flicking/swatting/etc.


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## Delicateflower (Feb 1, 2009)

Quote:

she doesn't understand cause-and-effect yet by just verbally explaining it ("when you hit mommy she is sad. Please don't hit mommy") and yet I'm not wanting to let certain behaviors continue and become habitual. Neither my dh or myself want to spank her with an object or even full hand anywhere on her body, but we've been flicking her leg or hand with our fingers recently when she's purposefully disobedient to something we know she understands.
Work through this with me. You want to communicate non-verbally that you don't hit people, so when she hits you, you hit her. What message do you think she gets from this?

This is going to be really long, apologies!

If you're like me you want to raise polite, kind children who are self-disciplined. To that end, teaching them how to behave is much more involved than simply hitting them when they do something you don't like. (or even replacing hitting with a time out).

Discipline is a multi-step, multi-faceted thing. First you need to know *what's developmentally appropriate* for the child. I would recommend you read this book http://www.amazon.com/Your-One-Year-.../dp/0440506727 . I saw a lady at playgroup once desperately trying to stop her nine month old putting things in her mouth, because it isn't polite. Obviously she's chosen an impossible battle and is just creating conflict and unhappiness for no reason or benefit.

Once you know what's developmentally appropriate and what you can reasonably expect to change, you can decide how to handle it.

The most important tool in your toolbox is *controlling the environment.* If there's constant conflict because she's trying to touch your favorite blue vase, put the vase away for a while. If she's climbing the couch and could hurt herself falling off the back, move the couch against the wall. I promise you, it's not forever. My house has had some weird configurations when my kids went through their climbing stages, but in between it's gone back to a more normal state. And both my kids can now be trusted with breakable things. We even use ceramic plates and bowls for the two year old.

*Pick your battles, say YES more*. You do want to minimise conflict, not only for your sanity, but also because "if mom's always cross, why should I bother trying to be good? She'd find something to get angry about anyway". Creating a calm happy environment really helps you create a calm, happy environment. Does it really matter if she dumps out her whole toy box and sits in the empty box?

*Redirect* her attention from undesirable behaviors. If she does something you don't want her to do, shift her, take the thing away or show her something new. If she's throwing food from the highchair, end the meal.

*Honor the impulse*. Think of a river in flood. Her impulses are sometimes unstoppable (because they're often developmentally appropriate), but can be redirected into something that lets them fulfill their want, and your as well. If she's hitting a stick on the wall, shift her and give her a pillow to hit. If she's running around screaming, take her outside where it won't kill your eardrums.

Your baby is still far to young for time outs, but as she approaches three and redirection stops working they might become useful. And trying to explain things to her is pretty pointless. Two or three words is all she's going to really hear at this age. Even a two or three year old should only get one or two short sentences.

Quote:

If told not to touch something that she's known for a long time not to touch, she'll look at us and touch it anyway.
100% totally and utterly developmentally normal. She's fguring out what happens, which is why she's watching you. And what happens is you calmly say "no touching the vase", pick her up gently and move her away, and show her something else she can touch "look at fluffy bunny sit on the couch!".

Quote:

If asked not to throw her cup on the floor every time she puts it down, she will do it anyway.
Also, totally and utterly developmentally normal. She's figuring out gravity. She's also playing a very fun game called dropsy-pickmeup where she throws it, you get it for her, she throws it again. If you don't want to play the game just don't pick it up after she's thrown it. She'll learn soon enough.

Quote:

A couple days ago she started saying "Don't" to me and hitting me when she was not perfectly happy with me.
She's doing what you do, you've taught her how to hit and shown her it's OK to do. Now that you're stopping hitting, you can catch her hand before she hits you, say no hitting! and turn around and walk away from her. Your attention is a powerful, powerful tool for a fifteen month old. And once you've stopped reinforcing her hitting she should forget pretty soon.

Quote:

Her ds has physically hurt my dd many times, and is only talked to about how that is not ok and it hurts her. He continues doing it whenever we visit, so much so that my daughter is afraid of him.
That sounds more like no discipline than gentle discipline. Usuaully it's because people make the mistake of trying to treat a two year old like an adult and reason with them using adult words and logic. Maybe you could share what you're discovering here with her?

In that situation the correct response would be to go straight there, squat down to his level and say in a very stern voice "no hitting! We don't hit! Look, Jennifer is crying because you hit her! You can't be near people if you're hitting" and then either remove him to another room, or if you're really wanting to stop the behavior, to go home. Of course, you need to make sure he doesn't start hitting when he wants to leave. In that situation I would remove him to play in another room, for at least a few minutes.

I hope you managed to read through that novel! And I hope it helps you. It IS more work and more thought, but it's also more successful at producing a child with _internal_ discipline, which is what we want.


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## BreatheMama (Jan 30, 2010)

Hi,
Just wanted to direct you to the "spanking" thread, the mamas gave some awesome input. I also wanted to add that, when my emotions flare and the baby is crying and 4 yr old dd is melting down, and 15 year old hound dog is whining, I feel like I could hit someone. But breathe in accept, breathe out smile...don't hit. Let the feelings pass through you. Build your toolbox of language, redirection, and support to use with your little ones. Practice identifying with the struggles and needs of your kids. Nurture yourself. Read "Unconditional Parenting" Alfie Kohn. Kelley


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

Fifteen months is just like that. You have this brief, glorious phase where you tell them no and they stop and you think HORRAH! She gets it. Then she gets a little older and her impulse control is about zero and you think OH NO! Where did it go wrong? You didn't. Fifteen months is just an impulsive age.

IMO (and what we did), try to remove the things that are problems over and over, redirect her before she gets there, and sometimes this means you have to actually get up and use more than your voice and move the child, move the object, find her something more interesting to play with. There may be some protesting, don't worry about it, just keep going. Use very few words because the more you use, the fewer she hears. "HURTS" and "HOT" and "BREAKS!" all work pretty well.

I don't think you can treat every situation with the same answer - pop a hand, take something away, time out. I think dealing with every situation as it comes up in an appropriate way makes more sense and works pretty darn well. Think about what you want in that situation - I want my child not to pull the lamp off the table - and work on making that happen. Move the lamp, move the table, or move the kid. Whatever.

They outgrow it. They eventually get less impulsive and more able to over-ride those impulses (of course, my dd is 4.5 and at another phase. THIS is the testing phase. I don't think 15 months is "testing you" I think it's just impulsive).

I have a lot of friends (and some family) who do a lot of hand popping and from what I can see, their kids are not any better behaved than mine. They still do the same things at the same phases and they ignore the hand pop just as much as mine would, at that age, ignore my babbling a bunch of words across the room. At fifteen months, your voice is just one tool and it's usually not enough.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

You are lucky that you had a brief phase of 'obedience' -- DS skipped over that & has been 'defying' us since 9mos old!!

First, your DD is still a baby. Even though she 'knows' she's not supposed to do something, she just doesn't have the impulse control to stop herself. Even adults have a hard time with this so you can imagine how hard it is for a baby!!

I don't think that 'flicking' or spanking is going to teach your child the message you want to teach her. If anything, it will show her the opposite -- that it's OK to hit if you have a reason. And I don't really see how a physical punishment could be considered gentle.

DH & I also both grew up being spanked and that is exactly why we are choosing NOT to use physical discipline. Sometimes it's hard to reel in your own impulse to react physically but just taking a moment, taking a deep breath, & telling yourself 'she's just a baby' can help with that.

As far as redirecting her, I would consider finding ways for her to express herself more appropriately. When DS tries to hit us, for example, we tell him "Gentle," and stroke his cheek. Often he will immediately stop & stroke our cheek, and then we gush about how nice it feels when he uses a gentle touch. If he does hit us, we tell him "That hurt mommy, can you give mommy a hug?" which follows with a hug... if he really hurt me (which has happened more than once!) then DH takes over & takes him out of the room because it's hard to be calm & rational when you're in pain! So remove yourself from the situation if you feel you may react in a way you don't want to.

Other things... if it's something immediately dangerous we pick him up & move him & then do our best to distract and calm him... if what he's doing is potentially dangerous but not immediate or significant -- hmmm like touching very hot food -- we might let him proceed, depending on the situation, so he can understand. He knows hot food doesn't feel good so when we say, "hot!" he backs off (or if it's food, he blows on it to cool it down!) If he's doing something I simply don't want him to do, I try to redirect that energy -- if he's chewing on something, I give him a snack or a teether; if he's playing with the radio or the remotes, I show him how to turn the dials & press the buttons; if he's pulling the cords and banging on the laptop, I pull him onto my lap & let him play a game on the computer. Doing this seems to really help MY sanity but also seems to have decreased how often he does the 'bad' behaviors. But he is only 15 months so I know we have a long way to go and I'm sure I'll need to be constantly modifying my responses as he grows!!


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

At that age I babyproofed, redirected, and moved to diffferent rooms a lot. Babies are way to young to really internalize rules and use self control that even adults have a hard time with when they see something really appealing in a store. Exploration is very important for brain development so babyproofing and making a yes environment is something that has more benefits than just making your life calmer.

Each stage brings new leaps in abilities, exploration, and independence. It takes a little while for moms and kids to adjust to this and figure out what their child is and isn't capable of so they can use prevention and appropriate boundaries. Try to get sleep when you can, eat when you can, and take care of your needs so you can be refreshed and calm as your child moves into toddlerhood. These things will help you to overrule your gut reaction that you have because of how you were raised so that you can raise your child in the gentle way you want to. It is a very tiring phase that tries a lot of mother's patience, but being gentle is really well worth it.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I will say bluntly if you want an obedient toddler who follows commands and doesn't defy expectations, you will be disappointed in Gentle Discipline. Shutting down the normal curiosity and impulsivity of a toddler to the point they are supplicant requires the infliction of both fear and pain. The purpose of this forum is to support parents as they discipline without violence. That means you don't get to shut down your toddler's natural impulses. You guide, you teach, you discipline, but a key part of GD is you have to accept what it means to be a toddler, and accept that you will live with certain behaviors typical of each stage of development, without a magic bullet to 'shut down' your child. Sure, GD provides many wonderful tactics for helping your child process all they need to learn to become a well adjusted adult. But you must accept that this happens very gradually, not all at once.

To answer your question--Nobody who uses Gentle Discipline has spanking in their toolbox. The point of GD is to discipline without violence. If you read here you will see that GD parents sometimes have a bad day that results in a spanking, and we focus on what the parent can do differently in the future. We make mistakes, we move on. But spanking is definitely viewed as a mistake here, not a viable tool.

Gentle Discipline is harder, not easier, in the early years, because you have to change too. You have to reconsider your ideal image of an obedient toddler. You have to let that go, and accept that it will not always look so perfect at this age.

It was interesting for me to realize that American parents have the ideal of a well adjusted adult in mind when they parent a toddler. Toddlers are so different than well adjusted adults, it scares us to think "If my child behaves this way now, how will they get along in the world as an adult?". Americans tend to view kids as small adults. Childhood is not a distinct phase of life. It blurs together with babyhood and adulthood. We do not have ceremonies to mark the end of infancy, the end of early childhood, the end of later childhood. In other cultures, they do. And this helps parents to tolerate behaviors as part of *that* stage, without fearing any connection to adulthood.

The best American equivalent I can give you is to study the normal phases of child development. Science is actually a pretty good substitute for ceremony. Study brain development, and cognitive development. It can help you be rational in your expectations as a parent. It can give you the "out" you need to stop fearing that a disobedient toddler will grow into an unruly teenager. Behavioral science can help you understand why negative reinforcement is a bad idea--in general science is very much on the side of Gentle Discipline in recognizing that it is not healthy to discipline with pain or fear.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

I don't have the time for a very lengthy post so my first thought is this from your post:
"when you hit mommy she is sad. Please don't hit mommy"
What do you think spanking would teach your dd? or flicking? I think the message you want her to learn about hitting is that it makes people sad. Are you wanting to make your dd sad? To me, spanking and flicking are in the same realm of hitting.
You have some wonderful responses already and I'll read through them in a bit.


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## blessedwithboys (Dec 8, 2004)

everyone has given you amazing advice! i think you might be benefitted by reevaluating your expectations of what is normal for a _baby_, which is what your LO still is.

i was raised by a parent who hit, smacked, punched, slapped, pinched, hair-pulled, and worst of all, verbally degraded. i had ds1 at 17yo, and while pg, never really gave any serious thought to whether or not i would spank. i guess if someone had asked me in the early days if i planned to spank, i would have said i hoped not to have to, but if i did it wouldnt be until about age 3 or 4 and then only "when necessary"

and then i gave birth to 9 lbs of raging hell swaddled in a receiving blanket. high needs doesnt begin to describe my dear child. he walked at 9 mos and by 12 mos my entire house was rearranged. every knick knack was boxed up (and wasnt put back out til age 4 or 5, he was that rough!), gates went up on the top and bottom of the stairs, i had to put an alarm on the sliding doors, and all the couches and chairs had to be pushed against the walls (he did manage at 2.5 to sprain his neck at a friends house where the couch was not against the wall). the cat had to be kept outside whenever ds was awake. the downstairs bathroom was turned in to a locked closet after i got tired of having to pull toys out of the bowl.

ds completely did not live up to my expectations of what having a baby would be like. i had visions of sitting in a comfy chair reading or crocheting while my baby sat at my feet cooing and shaking a rattle until the clock said it was time to eat and take a nap. as the first few months went by and ds turned one, and then two, there were times i literally cried in a heap on the floor. i was young and a single mother and it was hard.

but i never spanked (or flicked...why does that make me feel even sicker than spanking?) my baby. many years later, after ds was verbal and "old enough to know better" i failed a few times. but i never, ever, hit him as a baby, and i have never accepted spanking as appropriate "discipline", not for a kid of any age.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

As for your friend's dc, 2-1/2 is a very common age for toddlers to have an aggresive phase. Many toddlers go through this regardless of how they're parented. It's just a toddler thing, like tantrums and testing. It is probably not happening becasue of your friend's parenting style, and your dc might go through an aggressive phase later in toddlerhood too. What I did was to hover over my dd and make sure no one else got hurt, and remind her very consistently to be gentle. She outgrew it pretty quickly. Anyway, the first thing I'd say is to be more understanding of your friend.

Second, spanking, or anything physical like that, is contrary to gentle discipline, and in fact is what the "gentle" part is talking about - not using any kind of violence.

I would relax about your child's testing. That's what they do at that age, and it's about learning, not about being bad. Just be consistent and tell them what to do (ie be gentle) until your dc moves into the next toddler phase and challenge. Because it is one after another.

Finally, I personally think it's inherently unfair to punish a child for behaving in a way that is completely normal for their particular age group. I certainly teach my children how to behave otherwise, but I would never punish a toddler basically for being a toddler.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Two words:

BABY PROOF. Sanity saving devices are out there! Use them! If my apartment weren't completely, entirely baby proofed, I have NO IDEA what I would do!

And to answer your question, flicking is not GD.


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## kiwiva (Apr 17, 2006)

I think there is a lot of good advice on this thread. Spanking = opposite of gentle, nope not anywhere near the toolkit. Hitting your kid to teach her not to hit makes zero sense. Hitting for any reason makes no sense but especially as a punishment for hitting.

One of the things that helped me a lot (and still does with 3.5 yo DD) is to remember that many of the most annoying things they do are just normal phases. No matter what you do, they will go away. This was hard for DH during the throwing food on the floor phase (around 16 mos). The solution wasn't to punish DD to make her stop, the solution was to give her less food at a time and put a cloth under her high chair. She got over it. This has been true with pretty much every normal toddler behavior. So as someone else suggested, get a book on normal behaviors for the age. Your 16 year old will not be throwing food, really, regardless of how you handle it now. She will also not be touching everything in sight or throwing things or eating stuff off the ground or whatever other normal normal phase you can name now but fear if you don't nip it in the bud, it will last forever. It won't.

You can set limits and boundaries without hitting and punishing. At that age and for a while yet your best discipline method is prevention and distraction. We are still talking about a baby! Yes you remind of rules. "We don't hit" and put her down. Most kids do get the idea pretty quickly; some are more tenacious. If you set the boundary and keep reinforcing it, it will sink in.

Please don't draw conclusions about gentle discipline from one child, whose mom it sounds like is not disciplining at all. If I had a kid doing that, she would be removed. If you hit or are not gentle you are removed and reminded that we don't do that. If it is repeated, the playdate is over. Consequences for actions don't have to be violent. And some kids are just rough and go through a bad hitting/biting/pushing stage. Sometimes the solution for those kids is to not have playdates until they can be gentle. But, gd is not no discipline-not at all!!


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessedwithboys* 
and then i gave birth to 9 lbs of raging hell swaddled in a receiving blanket. high needs doesnt begin to describe my dear child. he walked at 9 mos and by 12 mos my entire house was rearranged. every knick knack was boxed up (and wasnt put back out til age 4 or 5, he was that rough!), gates went up on the top and bottom of the stairs, i had to put an alarm on the sliding doors, and all the couches and chairs had to be pushed against the walls (he did manage at 2.5 to sprain his neck at a friends house where the couch was not against the wall). the cat had to be kept outside whenever ds was awake. the downstairs bathroom was turned in to a locked closet after i got tired of having to pull toys out of the bowl.

ds completely did not live up to my expectations of what having a baby would be like. i had visions of sitting in a comfy chair reading or crocheting while my baby sat at my feet cooing and shaking a rattle until the clock said it was time to eat and take a nap. as the first few months went by and ds turned one, and then two, there were times i literally cried in a heap on the floor. i was young and a single mother and it was hard.

Sorry, this is OT a bit, but I nearly cried when I read this. My DS sounds exactly the same as yours was, and you really put into words how I've been feeling.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Research has linked spanking and physical punishment with lowered IQ and aggressive behavior. Here are two links http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...983895,00.html , http://www.livescience.com/culture/0...-spanking.html . Research has also linked spanking and harsh parenting methods to antisocial behavior and substance abuse, but I don't have links to the articles on hand.

Babies and toddlers have no impulse control because of simple brain development. Their frontal lobes are still developing so the part of their brain that does impulse control and the rest of higher reasoning isn't working yet. That's why babies and toddler can't be manipulative, they don't have the reasoning skills to plan their own behavior that way.


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## lyra1977 (Oct 25, 2009)

We had similar issues with our DD when she was about 14-15 months but her favorite thing was pinching me. Nothing worked (GD-wise) to stop her until one day she was sitting in my lap facing me and pinched my forearm and I said "ouch!" playfully and then (gently) pinched her in the exact same place. Then she pinched my thigh and I pinched hers, and on and on, until we had pinched each other all over our bodies. I was gentle with her and didn't pinch hard enough to leave a mark. Anyhow, I must have caught her in a thoughtful, teachable moment because that was the end of it for us. A couple of days later I saw her pinch her own arm (she was in the next room) and say "ow" and she's never pinched me again. It really drove home for me that her behavior was about her learning about the world and my role was not her antagonist but her teacher.

I think that because we as parents are so emotionally wrapped up in our kids we forget that they think of us differently. We love them with the maturity of an adult mind and soul, while to them we are the moon, stars and sun. They love us the way we say "we love our planet" ...they don't really understand the concept of love yet or the idea that we don't pinch, hit or disrespect the people we love. Try not to take her behaviors personally and they won't make you as upset.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

At 15 months, I definitely think that flicking her isn't going to teach her anything other than "Mommy/Daddy hurts me." Toddlers are big walking babies. They may seem big, but they think like infants.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

I wanted to comment about your friend's son hurting your daughter. This is the thing - I don't think it's reasonable to expect a 15 month old to play with a 2 1/2 year old without one or both of them getting hurt. You either have to keep them apart until they're older, or you need to both be on the kids with constant, present supervision, ready to intervene at any moment.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FlippyHippy* 
Our dd is 15 months old, and we've really started dealing with direct defiance in the past month or so.

This is the root, right here. You think-- she is defying me! I'll teach her a lesson! The problem here is that you are not familiar with child development. I think this is common with a first child! I think, generally, expectations of a first child are sky high. It is only with time and experience that we realize how teeny tiny our children are-- so young, for so long.

What if you think about it in a different way? Change your perspective instead of her? When it comes down to it, _we cannot change anyone except ourselves_-- no matter how old or how young. We may try to control them, but fundamental change comes from within. At the age of 15 months, she is acting her age. She cannot change now. This is who she is.

I am not saying it is easy. I am not guaranteeing behavior. But, in my experience, at the end of the day, everything comes down to my reaction. When I am able to react peacefully (or better yet, prevent the situation to begin with!) then that is all that matters.

Love, love these two sites:
http://www.connectionparenting.com/ (there's a book out there that is excellent by this author, but articles you can read now online)

http://www.handinhandparenting.org/ (superb resources, inc. tons of articles)


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## Louisep (May 1, 2009)

Quick reply and then I'm going to read all the replies bc my ds is the same age and totally into defiance right now. Redirection is now utterly useless to us so we are working on what limits we want to have ie what we will allow. Things that have worked - our house is 99% proofed and he has free reign. I never tell him "don't" because he purposively does it again and harder. If he hits me not too hard but looking for a reaction I totally ignore him. He loses interest instantly. He still "obeys" hot, not in the mouth, and wait, so we are going to work on some other key words like "not yours" eg when he wants to get into someone's golf cart to play!!


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

You've gotten a lot of good advice, I just wanted to underscore a few things. I also think you need a few more tools in your toolbox.

First, I agree wholeheartedly that you can't view this as 'defiance' (or at least as defiance directed personally at you). Your toddler is exploring her world. Her JOB is to find the boundaries. Her JOB is to repeat things over and over again to learn, as maddening as it is to us adults.

Second, I cannot stress how important it is to understand child development. A 15 month old can understand 'no', but they very often cannot stop when they've once started an activity. It's called 'impulse control'. Most adults have decent, but not perfect impulse control (which is why I just took a big handful of chocolate chips when I walked past the open bag even though I _know_ I shouldn't have). Toddlers have very little impulse control. It's a skill that's learned over a long period of time. Punishment isn't going to make her develop any faster.

Third, there is a middle ground between hitting your child (flicking = hitting) and doing nothing. We're fairly strict parents, I think, and yet we do not use spanking as a tool. (I will confess to having spanked my kids in anger, and I'm thoroughly ashamed of that.) What you need are more tools in your toolbox. You said yourself that your parents spanked. That's what you know. Now's an excellent time to work on other things.

To that end, I've given you a long, long post I wrote up a couple of years ago for parents of toddlers. Toddlers are very frustrating to discipline, and I found these tools helpful when my kids were in this age range. These are my general toddler strategies. Not everyone on MDC will agree with me, but they're at least a place to start thinking.

***********************************************

General tips for disciplining a toddler:

Below I've given a list of my general tips for disciplining a toddler that I've collected over the years. None of these are original with me - all are things that I've gotten from books. My favorite books are:
Kids, Parents & Power Struggles
Playful Parenting
Parenting with Purpose by Lynda Madison (I like this one because it speaks directly to under 4s)

First, remember that discipline = teaching. For me, good discipline means teaching the child what to do and what to expect. Also remember that learning new things takes time. Your 20 month old can't tie their own shoes, so don't expect them to learn to not throw their spaghetti on the floor in one day.

Before you discipline remember that children need to be well fed and well rested before they can learn anything. Feed your toddler every 2 hours. Make sure they get enough sleep. If you're both tired and cranky (dinner time), you're going to have more battles. Try to plan a quiet activity or a way to cool off then. If your child has been sick, expect their behavior to be "off" for the 10 days to 2 weeks it takes them to fully recover (even if they "look" OK).

Note too that these are my ideals. I often fall far short of my ideals. My goal is not to be perfect, but to keep moving in the right direction.

Here's the short version of the list:
1. Create a positive environment
2. Fill your child's need for attention in positive ways
3. Tell them what to do, not what not to do.
4. Remember where they are in development.
5. Decide if the behavior needs correction/stopping
6. Find a safe way for them to do what they're trying to do ('honor the impulse')
7. Gently help them comply/physically show them what you mean
8. Explain/warn of the consequences (keep them logically related)
9. Calmly enforce the consequences

*1. Create a positive environment.*
For me, this means child-proofing so my child is free to explore. The easiest way for a child to have a good experience is to simply be able to explore without limits because there's nothing dangerous around. So, toys should be age-appropriate (that means no toys that they can take apart), books should be board books only, knick knacks should be put away, stereo equipment etc. should be behind doors/guards.

For others, this means helping their child explore the dangerous things until the urge is out. (That's easy to do with one, harder to do with more than one because your attention is divided.) Sometimes if you hold a fragile object or help them hold fragile object, that's all it takes. I also taught my kids a 'one finger' touch. It's easier to keep it controlled and gentle.

IMO, every child should have at least one room where they are free to explore. Our kitchen was one of these rooms. All drawers except 2 had strong latches on them. The 2 free drawers had pans in them. One cupboard was all theirs, full of tupperware and plastic baby bowls and cups (and a few pans). The other room was the living room.

*2. Make sure you fill up your child's cup of attention daily*. If they get positive attention from you, they're less likely to act out just to get attention. I'm a firm believer in 30 minutes or so of focused attention where the child takes the lead in the play. When things are getting rough, this helps restore our connection.

*3. Tell them what they CAN do.* Don't phrase things in the negative







. Phrasing things positively teaches your child what is acceptable and gets their mind off what they shouldn't be doing. So, instead of saying "don't jump on the couch" say "come jump on the pillows". Instead of 'don't stand up on the chair' say 'sit down'.

Think of it this way, if someone says "Don't look over your shoulder, but..." what do you want to do? Look over your shoulder. If someone says "Hey, look up there!" (pointing ahead of you) do you think about looking over your shoulder? Negative instructions don't work well for anyone.

*4. Remember where you child is in development.* A young toddler has a short attention span. A toddler has little impulse control. Toddlers have a hard time stopping a behavior once they've started it. A toddler isn't great a using words when they're upset. Thus, actions speak louder than words for many reasons with a toddler. Toddlers are physical and tactile learners. They need to explore things physically and with their hands. Toddlers learn by repetition. They aren't doing this 85 times in a row just to frustrate you.

*5. Decide whether a behavior is really worth stopping.* Do I really care if my child takes ALL the puzzles off the shelf? Is it OK for my kids to slide down the stairs on an old air mattress? Why shouldn't my kids ride their scooters in the house? (OK, they can't do it while I'm cooking dinner, but other times, why not?)

*6. Find something that the child CAN do that's not the forbidden activity.* Find a way to honor the impulse if what they're doing isn't safe/acceptable to you. So, if she wants to jump on the couch, put pillows on the floor and have her jump on those. If he wants to play in the toilet, set him up at the sink with a step stool, some bubbles and a few utensils.
*
7. Gently help them comply.* Under 3s are physical learners and sometimes need to be physically shown what you expect. Handing them the toy you want them to pick up. Gently helping them put their feet on the floor might be more effective than telling them 5 times "feet on the floor".

*8. Warn of consequences* Tell your child what to expect. "Please drive that truck on the floor. Throwing is not safe. If you don't drive it, I'll have to put it up to keep us safe."

When you're thinking of a consequences, keep them related to what the child is doing. Timeout for throwing spaghetti on the floor doesn't make much sense to me. Better would be to have the child help pick up the spaghetti. (And yes, sometimes that meant me putting a single strand of spaghetti in my child's hand, and walking with them over to the trash. That single strand is 'helping'. At 5, my dd can now clean up after her own spills.)
*
8. Enforce consequences*
This must be done consistently and calmly. Enforcing it after telling them three times "if you throw that (again), I'll take it." only teaches them that you don't mean what you say, or that they've got 5-10 chances before they have to listen.

You also need to remain calm. This is the absolute hardest part for me. If I'm reacting from a place of anger, I'm not disciplining (i.e. teaching). I'm more likely to punish than teach.

What are appropriate consequences for a child this age? First, try to 'help them' gently comply. If that doesn't work, then I apply:

1. Removing the toy if they're not using it correctly.
2. Removing the child from the situation.
3. Remove yourself from the reach of the child. For example, if they're hurting you. So, if they hit, gently take their hand and say calmly "don't hit. that hurts. You must be gentle (and demonstrate gentle)." If they do it again, then get up and say "Don't hit, that hurts. I won't play with you if you hit." and walk away.
4. If you're losing it, then it's probably best to separate yourself from your child until you're calm enough to deal with them reasonably. I had to do this on some long days with our both our kids. I'd plop them in their cribs/rooms, and after 3-5 minutes, I could deal with him again.

For kids under 3, time-outs don't do any good. (for older kids, it's also highly debatable.) Young children don't understand why they're in 'timeout', and they don't link the punishment (which happens after they've done something) to whatever it was they did.

Just removing them to another location is generally enough. So, sit them on the couch or a chair and say calmly, "keep your hands out of the toilet. it's dirty." Then walk away (and close the bathroom door!). They'll get up right away, but that's OK. If you're really on your game you can add "Let's go play in the sink."

After our kids hit 3, we do timeouts in our house on occasion. Almost always it's when things have gotten out of hand we need to separate to keep ourselves sane/safe. If my kids hit, they were levitated to their rooms until they calmed down. Sometimes we send a child to their room for interminable whining. If you've been offered a hug, a cuddle and an alternative to whatever is making you whine, and you're STILL whining, it's time for you to go be by yourself. My kids often feed off of my negative energy, so a separation (either me putting myself in my room or putting them in their room) was effective in breaking the cycle.


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## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

Wow. *LYNNS6* our baby isn't born yet but I have saved your post to refer too when she is older. It all just made so much sense. Thank you for taking the time to write it all out.

Regards
Kate


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Lynn I really liked the reminder that a toddler doesn't repeatedly engage in a behavior you discouraged them from an hour earlier because they are 'defying' anyone. Toddlers repeat behaviors because their brain is learning through repetition. They actually need to hear corrections many times--it is a need, not a battle of the wills. Redirection and prevention are ways to avoid parental meltdowns as much as toddler meltdowns. It is frustrating to keep repeating yourself. But that doesn't mean the toddler wants to frustrate you.


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## aaronsmom (Jan 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
You've gotten a lot of good advice, I just wanted to underscore a few things. I also think you need a few more tools in your toolbox.

First, I agree wholeheartedly that you can't view this as 'defiance' (or at least as defiance directed personally at you). Your toddler is exploring her world. Her JOB is to find the boundaries. Her JOB is to repeat things over and over again to learn, as maddening as it is to us adults.

Second, I cannot stress how important it is to understand child development. A 15 month old can understand 'no', but they very often cannot stop when they've once started an activity. It's called 'impulse control'. Most adults have decent, but not perfect impulse control (which is why I just took a big handful of chocolate chips when I walked past the open bag even though I _know_ I shouldn't have). Toddlers have very little impulse control. It's a skill that's learned over a long period of time. Punishment isn't going to make her develop any faster.

Third, there is a middle ground between hitting your child (flicking = hitting) and doing nothing. We're fairly strict parents, I think, and yet we do not use spanking as a tool. (I will confess to having spanked my kids in anger, and I'm thoroughly ashamed of that.) What you need are more tools in your toolbox. You said yourself that your parents spanked. That's what you know. Now's an excellent time to work on other things.

To that end, I've given you a long, long post I wrote up a couple of years ago for parents of toddlers. Toddlers are very frustrating to discipline, and I found these tools helpful when my kids were in this age range. These are my general toddler strategies. Not everyone on MDC will agree with me, but they're at least a place to start thinking.

***********************************************

General tips for disciplining a toddler:

Below I've given a list of my general tips for disciplining a toddler that I've collected over the years. None of these are original with me - all are things that I've gotten from books. My favorite books are:
Kids, Parents & Power Struggles
Playful Parenting
Parenting with Purpose by Lynda Madison (I like this one because it speaks directly to under 4s)

First, remember that discipline = teaching. For me, good discipline means teaching the child what to do and what to expect. Also remember that learning new things takes time. Your 20 month old can't tie their own shoes, so don't expect them to learn to not throw their spaghetti on the floor in one day.

Before you discipline remember that children need to be well fed and well rested before they can learn anything. Feed your toddler every 2 hours. Make sure they get enough sleep. If you're both tired and cranky (dinner time), you're going to have more battles. Try to plan a quiet activity or a way to cool off then. If your child has been sick, expect their behavior to be "off" for the 10 days to 2 weeks it takes them to fully recover (even if they "look" OK).

Note too that these are my ideals. I often fall far short of my ideals. My goal is not to be perfect, but to keep moving in the right direction.

Here's the short version of the list:
1. Create a positive environment
2. Fill your child's need for attention in positive ways
3. Tell them what to do, not what not to do.
4. Remember where they are in development.
5. Decide if the behavior needs correction/stopping
6. Find a safe way for them to do what they're trying to do ('honor the impulse')
7. Gently help them comply/physically show them what you mean
8. Explain/warn of the consequences (keep them logically related)
9. Calmly enforce the consequences

*1. Create a positive environment.*
For me, this means child-proofing so my child is free to explore. The easiest way for a child to have a good experience is to simply be able to explore without limits because there's nothing dangerous around. So, toys should be age-appropriate (that means no toys that they can take apart), books should be board books only, knick knacks should be put away, stereo equipment etc. should be behind doors/guards.

For others, this means helping their child explore the dangerous things until the urge is out. (That's easy to do with one, harder to do with more than one because your attention is divided.) Sometimes if you hold a fragile object or help them hold fragile object, that's all it takes. I also taught my kids a 'one finger' touch. It's easier to keep it controlled and gentle.

IMO, every child should have at least one room where they are free to explore. Our kitchen was one of these rooms. All drawers except 2 had strong latches on them. The 2 free drawers had pans in them. One cupboard was all theirs, full of tupperware and plastic baby bowls and cups (and a few pans). The other room was the living room.

*2. Make sure you fill up your child's cup of attention daily*. If they get positive attention from you, they're less likely to act out just to get attention. I'm a firm believer in 30 minutes or so of focused attention where the child takes the lead in the play. When things are getting rough, this helps restore our connection.

*3. Tell them what they CAN do.* Don't phrase things in the negative









. Phrasing things positively teaches your child what is acceptable and gets their mind off what they shouldn't be doing. So, instead of saying "don't jump on the couch" say "come jump on the pillows". Instead of 'don't stand up on the chair' say 'sit down'.

Think of it this way, if someone says "Don't look over your shoulder, but..." what do you want to do? Look over your shoulder. If someone says "Hey, look up there!" (pointing ahead of you) do you think about looking over your shoulder? Negative instructions don't work well for anyone.

*4. Remember where you child is in development.* A young toddler has a short attention span. A toddler has little impulse control. Toddlers have a hard time stopping a behavior once they've started it. A toddler isn't great a using words when they're upset. Thus, actions speak louder than words for many reasons with a toddler. Toddlers are physical and tactile learners. They need to explore things physically and with their hands. Toddlers learn by repetition. They aren't doing this 85 times in a row just to frustrate you.

*5. Decide whether a behavior is really worth stopping.* Do I really care if my child takes ALL the puzzles off the shelf? Is it OK for my kids to slide down the stairs on an old air mattress? Why shouldn't my kids ride their scooters in the house? (OK, they can't do it while I'm cooking dinner, but other times, why not?)

*6. Find something that the child CAN do that's not the forbidden activity.* Find a way to honor the impulse if what they're doing isn't safe/acceptable to you. So, if she wants to jump on the couch, put pillows on the floor and have her jump on those. If he wants to play in the toilet, set him up at the sink with a step stool, some bubbles and a few utensils.
*
7. Gently help them comply.* Under 3s are physical learners and sometimes need to be physically shown what you expect. Handing them the toy you want them to pick up. Gently helping them put their feet on the floor might be more effective than telling them 5 times "feet on the floor".

*8. Warn of consequences* Tell your child what to expect. "Please drive that truck on the floor. Throwing is not safe. If you don't drive it, I'll have to put it up to keep us safe."

When you're thinking of a consequences, keep them related to what the child is doing. Timeout for throwing spaghetti on the floor doesn't make much sense to me. Better would be to have the child help pick up the spaghetti. (And yes, sometimes that meant me putting a single strand of spaghetti in my child's hand, and walking with them over to the trash. That single strand is 'helping'. At 5, my dd can now clean up after her own spills.)
*
8. Enforce consequences*
This must be done consistently and calmly. Enforcing it after telling them three times "if you throw that (again), I'll take it." only teaches them that you don't mean what you say, or that they've got 5-10 chances before they have to listen.

You also need to remain calm. This is the absolute hardest part for me. If I'm reacting from a place of anger, I'm not disciplining (i.e. teaching). I'm more likely to punish than teach.

What are appropriate consequences for a child this age? First, try to 'help them' gently comply. If that doesn't work, then I apply:

1. Removing the toy if they're not using it correctly.
2. Removing the child from the situation.
3. Remove yourself from the reach of the child. For example, if they're hurting you. So, if they hit, gently take their hand and say calmly "don't hit. that hurts. You must be gentle (and demonstrate gentle)." If they do it again, then get up and say "Don't hit, that hurts. I won't play with you if you hit." and walk away.
4. If you're losing it, then it's probably best to separate yourself from your child until you're calm enough to deal with them reasonably. I had to do this on some long days with our both our kids. I'd plop them in their cribs/rooms, and after 3-5 minutes, I could deal with him again.

For kids under 3, time-outs don't do any good. (for older kids, it's also highly debatable.) Young children don't understand why they're in 'timeout', and they don't link the punishment (which happens after they've done something) to whatever it was they did.

Just removing them to another location is generally enough. So, sit them on the couch or a chair and say calmly, "keep your hands out of the toilet. it's dirty." Then walk away (and close the bathroom door!). They'll get up right away, but that's OK. If you're really on your game you can add "Let's go play in the sink."

After our kids hit 3, we do timeouts in our house on occasion. Almost always it's when things have gotten out of hand we need to separate to keep ourselves sane/safe. If my kids hit, they were levitated to their rooms until they calmed down. Sometimes we send a child to their room for interminable whining. If you've been offered a hug, a cuddle and an alternative to whatever is making you whine, and you're STILL whining, it's time for you to go be by yourself. My kids often feed off of my negative energy, so a separation (either me putting myself in my room or putting them in their room) was effective in breaking the cycle.

Seriously, can I print this and put it on my fridge?


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## chiefmir (Apr 16, 2010)

my DD (our second) is exactly your DD's age and I have noticed that she is much more "difficult" (that isn't the exact word) than I'd expected at this age when compared to my older daughter at this stage.... so I do understand your frustration. first, I have to say that we DO NOT hit (or flick or swat or anything like that). It MIGHT work to stop a behavior in the very short term (through surprise, fear, pain, etc.) but it does nothing to help a child internalize limits/rules/consequences etc. there is plenty of research (others have mentioned) about why physical punnishment doesn't work and the negative outcomes it can cause in a child's life. what really bugs me also is the idea of using hitting as a response to hitting or other physical aggression. it gives the message that one has to be kind/gentle/patient/use their words etc.... but ONLY until they are bigger and grown at which time they are free to use violence.

with our 15 month DD, we use a lot of redirection and ignoring. if she hits us (which she does to me and our older DD more often) we move her firmly away from us (she is usuallly aiming at our face) and tell her "no hitting, hitting hurts. use gentle hands and do 'nice-nice'" (and then we hold her hand and demonstrate nice-nice on our own face and with our own hand on hers). if she does it again (it usually is immediate) we move her away from our face, say in a firm voice, "no hitting. all done mommy (or Becca if she hits her big sister)" and sit her down facing away from us. I then turn my face away from her for about 30 seconds - a minute. this works VERY WELL for her. i don't like to see her cry, but she does get upset when our attention is removed, and the incidents are WAY DOWN.

with throwing (of food/cup etc) i give a reminder or two and then stop playing. if she throws her cup, i just leave it down there. if she keeps throwing food, i eventually tell her that she's all done and assume she is finished eating. I do understand that she may be not wanting the specific thing in front of her... so we've been working with her on saying "all done" before she throws, which gives me a moment to sweep it out of her hand/off her tray and give her lots of praise for "not throwing"-- this has also helped a LOT.
good luck!


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## SundayCrepes (Feb 15, 2008)

Haven't read the responses.

If you want your child to hit (or flick) other kids, dogs, etc., go ahead and hit her. That's what you'll be teaching her (just as your parents taught you it's okay to hit/flick kids.)

If you want her to learn to respect you, treat her with respect. Understand she is being age appropriate and physically remove her from where she is at. She will outgrow this. You just need to be patient and use gentle means to get her to be safe.

If you don't like how your friend's child treats your daughter tell the mother, "We can't get together until your son doesn't hurt my daughter anymore." You may lose a friend, but you've got to protect your little one.


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## justKate (Jun 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aaronsmom* 
Seriously, can I print this and put it on my fridge?









Yep, me too.

*subbing* until I get home to print....


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## LadyCatherine185 (Aug 12, 2008)

Lots and lots of great advice here!









Just wanted to say something as a Mom of one of "those" toddlers who can be agressive to other babies/children--

1) it is a phase, and developmentally normal
2) he is disciplined for it. we tell him "no hitting, that hurts, please be nice" (he understands what 'nice' is vs 'mean' and what 'hurt' means) and remove him from the child he is hitting. we have also done "time ins" as discipline for this, where I sit and hold him for a few minutes away from friends/toys. sometimes he stops, sometimes he goes right back to hitting.
3) he thinks it is a game. he thinks it is funny. he does not realize he is hurting other children. he is not trying to hurt other children

like a PP said, if it bothers you that much you need to keep your child away from the boy who is hurting her. whether that means you avoid playgroups together, or you physically keep them apart if you do get together. your daughter will either go through the same phase when she gets older, or she won't. it is all up to her personality. and flicking her now is definitely NOT going to teach her not to hit others.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aaronsmom* 
Seriously, can I print this and put it on my fridge?









Only if you remember that this is my _ideal_, and that I often fell short of this ideal.

Actually, I still fall short of my ideals, it's just how you need to discipline changes a lot as they age. I haven't had to stop anyone from mouthing something or playing in the toilet in years! I've got that mastered. Now I'm trying to figure out how to deal with the problems of older kids.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

To the OP -- I hope we haven't scared you off.

Parenting is definitely a journey, and I've learned a lot about my parenting values by having people react to things that I've said. Sometimes I've changed how I've done things, sometimes I've just rethought my motivation. For example, many people on this board don't do time outs. I understand why, but choose to do limited time outs because it is consistent with my values, and to be honest, my needs as a parent. I'm somewhat explosive, and separation is a good thing at times.

We may sound like we know it all, but we don't. It's just much easier to parent someone else's child via the internet than to do it in person







.


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## AstridS (Mar 9, 2007)

Children do as we do, not as we say. So... I don't think you can teach a child not to be violent, by being violent.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
We may sound like we know it all, but we don't. It's just much easier to parent someone else's child via the internet than to do it in person







.

Ain't that the truth!
I tell dp all the time that I have really good advice on discipline. Now if I could just follow my own advice all the time, I'd be good to go! lol.

I just wanted to share this article, that talks about when kids do things that they "know" they shouldn't do. http://www.becomingtheparent.com/all/subsection13.html

Also, I 100% agree with the "honor the impulse" suggestion of a previous poster. Find out the impulse behind the action, and find an acceptable way for her to meet that impulse.

I also wanted to touch on the idea that little kids can "defy" anyone. They are so self-centered, that I don't think they even know that other people have different thoughts than they have, kwim? (there is a study about this in the book titled something like- Einstein never used flashcards- basically, that the age at which children learn that other people have different thoughts is 4-5ish).
At younger ages it's all about meeting needs, impulses, learning independence, etc.


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