# Abortion terminology



## arthead (Nov 25, 2003)

Just got sidetracked by some terminology from another post & am curious. Maybe this doesn't belong here... mods please move if nec.

QUESTION:
Why do many pro-lifers refer to aborting a pregnancy as "killing a baby/child" when in true terms it is killing a human (to prolifers)? This is just something that has bothered me for a while... seems like kind of a mindplay on words to get the act of abortion to seem as horrid as possible. Yes, yes I know that some of you feel that abortion is truly horrid, and also that killing an adult is also horrid, but the question is about the posted terminology "killing a BABY"... hope this stays on track. What are your thoughts?

* Please respond with ideas of why the terminology is such, no debate on abortion needed here.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

well... i'm pro-choice but i do agree that it's taking a life. i've referred to it as "killing a child" before, simply because it seems more appropriate. i mean, when a woman gives birth we don't say "aww it's a human." we say "aww a baby." and "that's her baby."

:: shrug ::

** edited because in all truth i cannot step away from a forum after i've gotten involved :LOL


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## sleeping queen (Nov 10, 2003)

Because it is a baby when it is being killed. When women are pg they don't talk about carrying a human they talk about carrying a baby. Does that make sense.


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## spero (Apr 22, 2003)

Not taking that bait


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## arthead (Nov 25, 2003)

Well, what's up with the skittishnes around here? I'm kinda new, but see this *non-posting to not stir up trouble* theme running rampant! What gives?

First off, my question is definitely not bait - at least not from me... although I suppose one who answers would need to disregard super Pro-Lifer sentiments if they're bothered, which they (prolifer) have every right to post BTW.

Anyway, back to my question... & actual answers I got:
"i've referred to it as "killing a child" before, simply because it seems more appropriate. i mean, when a woman gives birth we don't say "aww it's a human." we say "aww a baby." and "that's her baby."
& also:
Because it is a baby when it is being killed. When women are pg they don't talk about carrying a human they talk about carrying a baby. Does that make sense.

It's that THAT is what does not make sense to me at all. We all go through stages of life from conception. Fertilization, embryo, fetus, baby, child, adult, elderly stages of adult, death. When someone has an abortion, it's usually a fetus, most accurately a human being in general... but you never hear that. You hear the more dramatic "BABY/CHILD" lingo. When most accurately, it's an abortion of a human (again-according to prolifers).

So, my question IS legit & I swear it's NOT to "bait" (my gawd BAIT sounds soo hateful - or maybe this isn't the open forum that I'd been told?? possible & please enlighten me, I really don't want to disrupt) it is for me to further understand other's arguements & mindset... is that really so evil?

Please answer this original question if it doesn't make you feel weird in any way... there does that clarify my desire for opinions? Who knows, maybe people are jaded by these topics on this board, but I'm truly simply curious about why someone needs to refer to abortion as "killing a BABY/CHILD". Thats ALL.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

i am pro life & to me, saying abortion is killing a baby is the only way to say it. when in the womb, it IS a baby.

how would YOU say it??


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

first, you don't have to say stuff like, "& actual answers I got" because we can all scroll up and see the answers. if you want to quote, use the quote button, or do [ QUOTE ] and then [ / QUOTE ] (without the spaces). it will put it aside in it's separate box, like...

Quote:

this
now... we tried to tell you and you didn't listen. so let me try to rephrase what i said and maybe you'll understand it better.

when a woman has a baby, even if it's born premature at 20 weeks **and some have, and lived** we don't say "oh she had her fetus prematurely" we say "she had her baby prematurely." and if a mother delivers and brings her baby home, we don't normally say "aww what a darling infant," we say "what a cute baby."

and if a mother has a miscarriage we don't say "oh poor mama, she lost her fetus," or "oh well, she lost her embryo, she can try again," we say _"she lost her baby."_ it's a euphemism i suppose, but that's the way we think of a child that a mother is carrying.

if you want to be technical, YES it is a FETUS. which means the four children i miscarried prior to this pregnancy weren't *babies* they were *embryos*. gosh what a difference that makes to my feelings.







:

what i'm saying is that it's not just pro-lifers who use this lingo, and i'm saying that it's *common* and *accepted* to think of a child as a *child* not as just some human in a particular phase of development. why do we suddenly have to use different language if we're talking about an abortion, about a child who wasn't planned or wasn't wanted? yes, i support a woman's right to have an abortion, but don't expect me to use any language that makes it seem more medical or less than what it is -- they are killing a child. if you choose to think of that child in terms of it's phase of development, good for you, but don't get upset when the rest of us have enough respect for children to not just call them by their technical terms.

**** WHAT IS HARD TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THIS? ****


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## arthead (Nov 25, 2003)

Oh No No, Klothos, or anyone who has lost a pregnancy, I'm not saying in any way that the pg was not legitimate, that the loss wasn't heavier than anything in life, or that you shouldn't bother naming the loss... please don't evil-ize my question. My sister has lost two, both before the 12th week of pregnancy. I know the pain, & the frustration, & the insecurity of body.

Please refer to my OP... there is no offense given, just a question of why certain terminology happens when discussing abortion, thats all.

BTW, I call abortion just that, an abortion of a pregnancy... I give the mother/parents the final choice. I'm just a friend, not in the position of judgement AT ALL.

My post was b'c there are certain words that are used to play mindgames & "killing a baby" seems to be used very much.
Many people don't view an abortion as "killing a baby" btw, so my question was such.
Absolutely NO offense sent out, maybe a difference of terminology which is what i'm interested in, I suppose if you feel offended, why read & much more, why post?


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

i don't think of the terminology as a mind game -- i think of it as the truth. :: shrug :: like i said, i am pro-choice. i would never vie for illegal abortion again, not after knowing the history of women's rights behind the right to choice.

i'm only trying to help you see *why* that language is used, since you asked. i'm not offended; i'm astounded at what seems to me to be an asinine position (i.e., "if the child is unwanted let's just call it what it technically is...") -- i'm *not* making a personal attack, i've heard this question a *lot* before and i think it's stupid every time. if it's unwanted, what difference does it make? it's still a child. and some women who have had abortions **by their own choice** still feel sadness and loss, which isn't validated by society's overwhelming view that, well, "if the child is unwanted let's just call it what it technically is..." to me that's like saying, "it's not really a baby yet." (but then we turn around and use different language for women who lost wanted babies? it's hypocritical at best and just dumb at worst.)

"a rose by any other name would smell as sweet..."

a baby... is a baby... is a baby.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

I have always thought that in the absence of a desire to use inflammatory rhetoric the phrase was probably used because it is the simplest and oldest way of saying it. Thousands of years ago, long before people were commonly using any such technical terms for the products of conception based on the distance from date of conception women almost certainly said the same kinds of this they do today. "I'm having a baby" or "I don't want to have a baby" and then they went to the midwife and she treated them accordingly. The generic use of the word baby for what is in a womans womb is very old and deeply rooted in our use of language. I'm not convinced there is neccesarily any more to it than that.


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## arthead (Nov 25, 2003)

Then, I suppose it would all come down to what the pregnant mom/couple calls the pregnancy.

If they really wanted the pregnancy to go to full term, I'm taking that it would be called a BABY(by that couple) even at 2 weeks, if they decide on an abortion in earlier terms, or if they decided they were inadequate parents & happen to disbelieve in adoption - many reasons against adoption are VERY relavant, it should be called an aborted pregnancy, right?

This is why I'm asking. Please, I'm not trying to be harsh, my words have not been harsh... just curious about terminology.

I'm actually NOT talking about miscarriage at all. Abortion terminology is my OP.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

Oh gosh... I mean.. in what context? People just don't talk like that, in my experience. I have never heard someone say "I aborted a ..." anything. They say I/she/we had an abortion. Probably one of the wierdest loqutions I can recall hearing was on a tv show that I think was trying hard to deal with a character miscarrying without pissing off their largely liberal demographic by accidentally calling it a baby. They had the woman say "I lost the pregnancy." to her friend. It sounded to my ears very stilted and unreal in a show (NYPD) that usually had very good dialogue. While it is possible they were using that language to demonstrate her effort to detach from the situation emotionally it simply did not feel that way to me. It felt like bad writing that was politically/ financially motivated.

So.. sorry for the tangent.. but in what context?


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

this... question... makes... no... sense!

MUST... LOG... OFF!

seriously, i must be missing the point here, or maybe i am just bleary headed, my almost five year old former fetus woke up early today.








:

carry on though.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

I Think all of the PPs have given you very clear responses as to why pro-lifers use the term "baby", if the term baby is not completely appropriate, at least I would think we could use the terms fetus, embryo, etc., or "human" since it always is. A pregnancy can be "terminated", etc. (you see, like born children, their worth should not be dependant on whether or not they are wanted/loved by their parents, IMO, and I don't care what the stage of development- fetus, infant toddler, teen, elderly- human's are all people worthy of rights- in the pro-life perspective)

I see from your posts that you don't want anyone to assume that you are trying to debate, but 2 things strike me about that-#1- you are assuming that pro-lifers have a motive in *their* wording, and #2- you have yet to accept any response you have been given







:

If you want the benefit of the doubt- you need to give it to others as well.


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## arimama (Feb 13, 2004)

"Terminated the pregnancy", or "had an abortion" seem like the most reasonable way to describe it.

Pro lifers like to say "killing a baby" because it makes women who do it sound evil. If women are going around killing their sweet little babies, they must be monsters and it must be outlawed right?


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

Yeah... I think it's the word 'kill" that makes this terminology really inflammatory, not the word baby. But that's just my opinion.


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## anothermama (Nov 11, 2003)

I agree with the other posters who've said that, primarily it has to do with not calling a premature baby a "fetus" or saying "what a cute fetus/human!" when it comes out by birth.

I feel that the "mind game" is really in totally DENYING what it is....most pro choicers can't even admit to it being human...the mind game, IMHO, comes in insisting it's a "mass of cells" or "tissue" or the like.

*shrug*

I guess it goes both ways.


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## Megs Mom (Mar 19, 2002)

As someone who believes that abortion is a terrible thing that should be illegal, I will definitely always use terms that make it sound like a terrible thing. These terms include "kill" and "baby".


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## momadance (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by arthead_
*Oh No No, Klothos, or anyone who has lost a pregnancy, I'm not saying in any way that the pg was not legitimate, that the loss wasn't heavier than anything in life, or that you shouldn't bother naming the loss... please don't evil-ize my question. My sister has lost two, both before the 12th week of pregnancy. I know the pain, & the frustration, & the insecurity of body.

Please refer to my OP... there is no offense given, just a question of why certain terminology happens when discussing abortion, thats all.

BTW, I call abortion just that, an abortion of a pregnancy... I give the mother/parents the final choice. I'm just a friend, not in the position of judgement AT ALL.

My post was b'c there are certain words that are used to play mindgames & "killing a baby" seems to be used very much.
Many people don't view an abortion as "killing a baby" btw, so my question was such.
Absolutely NO offense sent out, maybe a difference of terminology which is what i'm interested in, I suppose if you feel offended, why read & much more, why post?*

i feel like your trying hard NOT to understand the explanations given to you! Use whatever stage name of devolopment you like to describe abortion! Potato potata! I think of anything with a pulse in utero as a baby! I am pro-choice.


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## pammysue (Jan 24, 2004)

Quote:

there is no offense given, just a question of why certain terminology happens when discussing abortion, thats all.
I think one of the points that is being made is that the use of the word "baby" for a fetus is NOT only done by pro-lifers to inflame others. It is the word commonly used by those who support and oppose abortion when refering to HUMANS (babies) in utero.

When speaking to a friend who is pregnant do you refer to the child in utero as a human. For example, have you felt your human kick yet?







:

Edited for clarification


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## Paxetbonum (Jul 16, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by arimama_
*"Terminated the pregnancy", or "had an abortion" seem like the most reasonable way to describe it.

Pro lifers like to say "killing a baby" because it makes women who do it sound evil. If women are going around killing their sweet little babies, they must be monsters and it must be outlawed right?*

This comment brings up a fundamental error in language in the modern era. The politics of the twentieth century have certainly seen an intresting phenomena in language's political usage.

I find it odd that some of the most corrupt regimes of the past century enjoyed useing highly technical language to mask a moral imperfection.

For example, Hitler liked to call the mass slaughterings of Jews "medical experiments." When Stalin systematically seized the property of thousands of Eastern European peasants it was politley called "relocation." Our own government has done much damage in the name of "homeland security." Dr. Kevorkian proclaimed that he was allowing the elderly a "merciful passing."

I am not saying that all of these things are of equal gravity but they all are examples of deeds of moral questionability politically described in a way that deliberatley misleeds the hearer into thinking they are something of a less sinister nature.

Of course "terminating the pregnancy." sounds nicer that "killing the baby. " Nobody is disputing that.

But it does beg the question. . . . Just what side are the mind games on?


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## arimama (Feb 13, 2004)

*


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## calgal007 (Nov 20, 2001)

It's all semantics, isn't it? The result is the same whether you call it killing a baby or ending a pregnancy.

What was it called when the procedure was illegal and women bled to death from botched abortions? My mother called them "back alley abortions", not "back alley baby killings" and my mom is the most avid pro-lifer on the planet. She's not given to using inflammatory rhetoric to make her point.


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## DreamerMama (Feb 2, 2003)

I just have to ask.

How does labeling someone a baby killer further the cause for pro lifers?

How does calling an abortion "killing a baby" make anyone warm up to pro life stance?

Because, when I hear those terms they raise my hackles and I end up not listening to anything that person has to say.

I believe if your not gentle enough to use nicer words then how could you possibly care about the unborn baby.

I mean really ladies, kill em with kindness. Show the women that you CARE about their bodies. Not just that you want to call them names and label them hateful labels.








:

Gentle, gentle, gentle, ladies. Some sugar might get you somewhere but spewing hate will never further your cause.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

I won't call my fetus a baby until she can live outside my body. Before such a time, she will be my beloved "little fetus," my group of "sweet growing cells". If she wouldn't be able to exist outside of my body, than she isn't a baby or even a human being to me, but a part of my body (that I love a lot more than I love any otehr part of my body).

The point of the thread, I imagine, is that all the rhetoric surrpunding this issue is fraught: Pro-life (who isn't for life), Pro-choice (who isn't for choice).

It would be wonderful if we could somehow talk about this issue outside of the rhetoric, but language and thought are inseperable. And, anyway, this issue is really about how we define life, which is not arguable since it is belief.


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Zaq001_
*I mean really ladies, kill em with kindness.*
i suspect the debate would sound considerably different if women were actually running the ban-abortion campaign.


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## DreamerMama (Feb 2, 2003)

I meant the women here on this thread. As for who is running the ban abortion campain, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter as long as women still feel the need to call other women baby killers.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:

i suspect the debate would sound considerably different if women were actually running the ban-abortion campaign.
... but there wouldn't be a campaign if women were running it, because women know what's at stake. the majority of people making the laws restricting access to **safe, legal** abortions are **rich or upper-middle class white MEN**.







(the *same* men who design dumb programs like the program that gives more welfare benefits to married mothers. men should not be writing laws that affect women.)

*~* edited because i can't type today *L*


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## arimama (Feb 13, 2004)

mamawanabe. ITA


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## MaryKate (Dec 6, 2003)

CK'sMama-Right on!!


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## Megs Mom (Mar 19, 2002)

I don't understand how you can be pro-choice yet believe a fetus is alive or a baby. I know that's OT so I started a new thread on this topic...


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## Megs Mom (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Zaq001_
*I mean really ladies, kill em with kindness. Show the women that you CARE about their bodies. Not just that you want to call them names and label them hateful labels.








:

Gentle, gentle, gentle, ladies. Some sugar might get you somewhere but spewing hate will never further your cause.*
Point taken. While I don't agree that I can't possibly care about the preborn child just b/c I don't care to use less inflammatory rhetoric, I do agree that kindness is a better approach - both in and of itself, and in order to make a point.


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## Megs Mom (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Zaq001_
*I meant the women here on this thread. As for who is running the ban abortion campain, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter as long as women still feel the need to call other women baby killers.*
For the record: I don't consider the mothers who choose abortion to be baby killers. I consider the practitioners who perform the procedure to be the baby killers.


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## pammysue (Jan 24, 2004)

Meg's Mom-ITA









If I was ever to call anyone a "baby killer" (which I can't imagine although I am anti-abortion, b/c I feel it is inflamatory and "not gentle", as ZAQ001 might say) it would be the doctors who perform the abortions.

I would never call a women who had an abortion or was considering an abortion a baby killer. This is because I think it is never an easy decision without ramifications for the woman.

Quote:

The point of the thread, I imagine, is that all the rhetoric surrpunding this issue is fraught: Pro-life (who isn't for life), Pro-choice (who isn't for choice).
It would be wonderful if we could somehow talk about this issue outside of the rhetoric
Mamawanabe-ITA with you also
















Even the language we define this isuue with is incorrect and has become fraught with emotion. I avoid the tems "pro-life" and "pro-choice" b/c as you said it implies that "pro-lifers" are against choice and that "pro-choicers" are against life. I also think that those terms have taken on a life of their own, as it were. We define ourselves as one or the other and then draw lines and make assumptions based on what side we are each on.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

ok, let me just clarify that although i've referred to abortion as killing a baby or stilling a life, i have ** never ** called a woman who has had an abortion a "baby killer."

that's saying two entirely different things.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Megs Mom_
*For the record: I don't consider the mothers who choose abortion to be baby killers. I consider the practitioners who perform the procedure to be the baby killers.*
I don't find much comfort in that. In fact, I don't find any comfort in it at all.


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## pammysue (Jan 24, 2004)

Klothos-I am not sure, though I am assuming, if your last post was in response to my last post. However, it made me review the previous posts and my last post and I think I need to edit what I said.

My statements re: calling a women who had an abortion a "baby killer" was a HUGE jump that I made without good reason.









So please read the first part of my last post as:

I would never, when speaking about a woman that had an abortion, say that she killed her baby. However I would feel more comforatable, though I probably still would not say it, saying a doctor who performed an abortion killed a baby.

Thanks for giving me a chance to fix my blunder and I apologize for any misunderstanding.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

... well i'm so scatterbrained at the moment i'm not sure if i was responding to what you may have said, pammysue, or just the idea in general....

i *have* heard militant pro-lifers call women who have had abortions "baby killers" so i don't know if it's really that far offtopic (considering the original question was regarding the inflammatory nature of the language used...)


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## DreamerMama (Feb 2, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by CK'sMama_
*Well, this is just me, but I use the term "kill" rather than abortion because that is exactly what it is. Aborting something with a beating heart, a human, IS purposely killing it, plain and simple. Whether you want to call the life a lump of cells, a fetus, or a baby, it is still a life. Abortion ends that life.

The term killing may be inflammatory, but it is what it is. I see no reason to sugar coat it.*
Ta da....may I have a drumroll?

This is why I will never understand hate. You see no reason to be kind? You see no reason to be gentle with a person's soul? You see no reason to sugar coat it...I get it.

Then, I see no reason to sugar coat this: you are a woman's advocate killer. You are killing any and all openess to your stance by spewing hate. Your not futhering your platform, you are alienating a group of women by your inflamatory rehtoric.

If a woman is about to get an abortion and you want to make a difference in her opinion, why on God's green earth do you think calling her a killer would help? Don't you believe THAT is the time to be Christ like? To be accepting and loving towards a woman who is hurting and afraid....that would be such a difficult thing to do?

Until women unite together and start treating eachother with kindness and understanding, we will never get anywhere with women's rights.

So, go on, be inflamitory with your words. Many women you talk to will just continue to plug their ears and go "na na na na".








: I still just don't get how this helps the pro life agenda.


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## MaryKate (Dec 6, 2003)

I never said I call women baby killers who have an abortion. Granted they are the one who made the choice to have an abortion but I would agree that calling a woman a baby killer is a little harsh.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

nevermind


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## anothermama (Nov 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by pugmadmama_
*I don't find much comfort in that. In fact, I don't find any comfort in it at all.*
Well, it's not real comforting for *me* that people perpetuate the things you've said in current threads about this issue.....it's, in fact, disturbing.

*shrug*

diffrnt' strokes............


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## arimama (Feb 13, 2004)

Hey Ck's mama
How about we go back in time and you can adopt that baby I aborted when I was 21 years old, married and on birth control,
I am sure you would love to take care of a baby with a cleft palet , heart defects and missing limbs, because of the medication I was taking at the time I got pregnant. We had genetic counceling and there was a 35-50% chance of one or all of those things happening.

I was irresponsible?!!!! Because me and my husband were not prepared to deal with a situation like that at 21 an 25 years old?
Do you honestly think it would be kind or responsible to go ahead with that pregnancy and hope that someone would want to adopt that baby?


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## calgal007 (Nov 20, 2001)

Would Jesus call women who have abortions "baby killers"? Somehow, I don't think so. I can't imagine my Savior screaming at women going into an abortion clinic that they are "baby killers".

And Zaq001, I haven't seen you on the boards lately. Perhaps we just haven't crossed threads. Anyway, "hey" from Calgal.


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## arimama (Feb 13, 2004)

I have to step away from this conversation now because I am about to tell someone to F*&% off.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

must we debate about what Jesus would do? if you think of it that way, no, He would not be screaming at the women who are having abortions. He wouldn't have time, He's too busy welcoming the souls of over 400 babies A DAY (us alone) into His Father's Kingdom.

i am only being a little sarcastic to try to make a point. it doesn't MATTER what we call the babies~ baby, fetus, lump of cells. whatever. call it whatever you like, it is still a life.

i am not a riot inciting person. i would love to go to DC on the prolife marches but i would NEVER stand outside an abortion clinic & scream at the women going in. but i will every time stand up for the babies who cannot stand up for themselves. the same way i stand up for older children who cannot stand on their own. there is no difference to me in a women 3-4 months pregnant having an abortion & a woman who murders her toddler. both acts end a life.


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## joesmom (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by arimama_
*...I am sure you would love to take care of a baby with a cleft palet , heart defects and missing limbs, because of the medication I was taking at the time I got pregnant. We had genetic counceling and there was a 35-50% chance of one or all of those things happening.

I was irresponsible?!!!! Because me and my husband were not prepared to deal with a situation like that at 21 an 25 years old?
Do you honestly think it would be kind or responsible to go ahead with that pregnancy and hope that someone would want to adopt that baby?*
arimama, truly sorry for your situation & i respect that you did what was right for you at the time, but your post hit home to me because i KNOW there are mamas on this board caring for babies with cleft palates, heart defects & missing limbs. while no one PRAYS for a baby with this issues, some do feel blessed to be chosen to care for babies with special needs.

my friend's daughter is severely autistic, i know another little girl with down syndrome who is blind in one eye. there is NO WAY these parents would have aborted their children & their lives are enriched because of them.

i hear of too many cases of abortions due to severe birth defects, & the baby turns out to only have a club foot or something.

i am not judging you arimama, or anyone. just trying to make you all understand that i & most prolifers do not discount the feelings of the mother. i just have to focus my attention on the innocent life that is lost.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Wow. I think everyone needs to take a nice, big, deep breath now or an emotional thread that might open up some doors to communication will get closed.
(Go ahead, I'm not a moderator, tell me to shut up







).
To some people, having an abortion is killing a baby.
To others, having an abortion is flushing out unwanted lumps of nerve and tissue before it becomes a baby.
I can see both sides.
ITA with a previous poster who said we would never see Jesus outside of an abortion clinic screaming "Baby killer! Baby killer!" I actually saw this IRL down the street from my sister's house. They had crosses and religious paraphenalia as they catcalled at these freightened women who MAY HAVE or MAY NOT HAVE realized the full implications of their actions. Point being, who in the heck ARE these people terrorizing and judging other people in the name of Jesus Christ himself?







: I'll never really understand that.... but it's not my place to.
We all come to these emotional discussions with our hearts on our sleeves. But I think it's important to understand that we hold ONE thought, ONE belief, out of the billions of other thoughts and beliefs on this planet. And to assume that our thoughts and beliefs should, in fact, be the thoughts and beliefs of everyone else on this planet just sets us up for anger and frustration.
I think that if we could look past the language used (prolife, antichoice, antilife, baby killer, whatever) and understand the heart of the message, it would be more beneficial than arguing over who's language is more politically correct.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

And arimama, please stick your fingers in your ears and go "Na-na-na-NA-na"! What an extremely painful, traumatic decision for you. Please feel my hugs and prayers across cyberspace. Your strength in coming here and sharing your story really is awe-inspiring.
Thank you.


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## anothermama (Nov 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by arimama_
*I have to step away from this conversation now because I am about to tell someone to F*&% off.*
hey....that really wasn't a very good use of self control. You basically just did.

Not cool.

And....not doing much for your argument if all you can do is throw mildly veiled curses around.


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## anothermama (Nov 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by calgal007_
*Would Jesus call women who have abortions "baby killers"? Somehow, I don't think so. I can't imagine my Savior screaming at women going into an abortion clinic that they are "baby killers".
.*
As a Christian woman, all I have to say is AMEN!!!!!!!!!


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## spero (Apr 22, 2003)

See, now, why I wouldn't go there?







:


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:

If you had read my post fully before replying you would have realized that I said there was no reason for abortion with all of the birth control options that are now available. I am sorry that you happened to get pregnant while on birth control, but you know what? That is the exception not the rule.
Actually, it is estimated that as little as 42% of women recieving abortions were NOT on some form of birth control. In addition, taking all the major forms of birth control, a woman has appx a 10% chance of an unintended pregnant. With an exception that large, I don't think a rule is accurate (that people on birth control don't get pg).

For an individual woman on a birth control method with 97% accuracy, there is a 14% chance she will become pregnant at least once in 5 years. *That* right there is a lot of people trying to be "responsible" hit with an unplanned pregnancy. If you go with something less accurate, let's say 85% you are up to over a 40% chance of getting pg at least once in those 5 years. Even with a 99% accuracy there is still a 5% chance over five years. Obviously, birth contol usage needs to get more wide spread (and accurate) but even if full abstinance were implimented there would still be unwanted pregnancies.


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by CK'sMama_
*Who is being KIND to the baby who will never experience life?*
if you want nothing to do with abortions, that is your right, but by insisting on calling it "killing a baby", "murder", etc etc etc, you jamming your personal definitions down other people's throats.
your definitions are not even close to being universal, not even amongst religious practicitioners, so please stop.

if you want to be heard, don't be so vitriolic.


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by calgal007_
*Would Jesus call women who have abortions "baby killers"? Somehow, I don't think so.*
of course not. he was an observant Jew. under specific conditions, Judaism not only allows, but *mandates* abortion. put bluntly (and simplifying), a fetus, a potential life, is simply not as valuable as the actual life of a mother, especially a mother who already has children.

women who have to make these painful "no easy answer" decisions should be supported, not called names.

unless posters stop turning this thread into backdoor-prosletyzing, i have a feeling it will get out of hand, very quickly....


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## DreamerMama (Feb 2, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by CK'sMama_
*

First of all I should tell you than I am agnostic, so being "Christ-like" isn't really topping my list of priorities here. :LOL It is amusing how you assume that if one is against abortion, she MUST be religious.
*
Point taken







. Actually it confuses me to no end (and I have been spending the better part of my weekend thinking about it) that you can be agnostic and brutally prolife.

I had just always thought that if your in a minority religion/race/ or sexual preference that you tend to be more understanding of human issues. Isn't being humane about giving compassion to our fellow humans? Hey, maybe I am







:

So, even if your not Christian, wouldn't you consider being more humane to women a good quality to posess? And no, I don't buy the argument "they are killing their babies so they don't deserve compassion". EVERYONE deserves compassion and to be treated with respect. Especially a woman having to make a choice about a baby.


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## DreamerMama (Feb 2, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by dado_
*
unless posters stop turning this thread into backdoor-prosletyzing, i have a feeling it will get out of hand, very quickly....*
Dado, I am sorry. I was the original poster who mentioned "Christ like" behavior. I wasn't prosletyzing, I promise. (If you knew me you know I would be the last person on earth to do that).

What I *meant* was that the whole shouting baby killer doesn't further the cause for pro life. Maybe coming at abortion with compassion or "Christ like" behavior would further the pro life agenda.

Bad choice of words, not prosletyzing. I promise







.


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Zaq001_
*Bad choice of words, not prosletyzing. I promise







*
no worries, i wasn't referring to your posts, rather to certain others of the particularly "my way or the highway" variety.

time to turn the thermostat down on our own, save the mod a bit of work.


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## DreamerMama (Feb 2, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by CK'sMama_
*I have an opinion that will not change. I am not here trying to get anyone on my side, I am not pushing any agenda. I believe that abortion is killing for the reason I stated in my first post here. I do not go around shouting baby killer at anyone who has an abortion, I just have a personal belief that abortion IS killing.

This is for anyone who is pro choice: If you are truly pro choice, allow me to have MY choice to believe abortion is killing. Don't try to change my mind, just like I am not here to change anyone's mind.*
I'm not trying to change your mind. Wouldn't dream of it







.

I'm just thinking that if you choose to use inflamatory language on abortion threads, your generally alienating a BUNCH of people. Pro life and Pro choice on both sides. And yes, I do believe your pushing your agenda by spewing hate words. It's a scare tactic. By labeling women as killers you hope to scare them into behaving properly.

It's not even subtle agend pushing. I hear it LOUD and clear.


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by CK'sMama_
*If somebody kills a child outside of a womb, you certainly wouldn't call it "terminating" it's life, you would call it killing*
no, you would call it a "regrettable accident", claim you "don't deliberately target civilians", point out they were only the children of potential "Evil Doers" anyway and board a helicopter for a $5000 a seat fundraiser hosted by Rockwell Munitions.

alternately, if you live in certain states, you could just call it "capital punishment"...and then board a helicopter for a....etc etc etc.


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## anothermama (Nov 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by dado_
*no, you would call it a "regrettable accident", claim you "don't deliberately target civilians", point out they were only the children of potential "Evil Doers" anyway and board a helicopter for a $5000 a seat fundraiser hosted by Rockwell Munitions.

alternately, if you live in certain states, you could just call it "capital punishment"...and then board a helicopter for a....etc etc etc.*
while I appreciate AND agree with your sentiment.......

it doesn't really address the issue..........


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## Faith (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by dado_
*of course not. he was an observant Jew. under specific conditions, Judaism not only allows, but *mandates* abortion.*

When in Judaism is abortion mandated? Just an honest question...


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Faith_
*When in Judaism is abortion mandated? Just an honest question...*
when the welfare of the mother is at risk and anytime - yes, anytime - before a majority of the baby's body has emerged. until that point the unborn child is classified as a "potential life" and is not allowed to seriously threaten the "actual life" of the mother.

definitions of "at risk" vary across the spectrum; the one constant is that the decision is not to be made lightly or casually.

the development of attitudes towards abortion in christianity is a fascinating subject in its own right and i'd start a thread if i didn't think it would blow up almost immediately.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Dado--- I really wish you would. PM me if you do so I get there before it's gone







: Maybe in spirituality? :LOL (I *know* nothing ever gets out of control over there).


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## Megs Mom (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by pugmadmama_
*I don't find much comfort in that. In fact, I don't find any comfort in it at all.*
Well, let me elaborate.

Mother who has an abortion: often scared, depressed, upset, in crisis.

Practitioner who performs an abortion: makes a lot of money off above.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

I am willing to accept that many women are often scared, depressed, upset etc... in the aftermath of an abortion.

Are you willing to admit that many women are relieved, happy, etc... after an abortion? Are you willing to admit that many women are scared, depressed, upset etc... after a pregnancy, after an adoption, after giving birth to a child that will very soon die in agonizing pain, after loosing their fertility...?


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

A further question.... should a doctor be prevented from performing a proceedure that people later regret? How about circumcision & other plastic surgery? Stomach reduction? What else...? Especially as *adults* we need to weigh the risks and benifits of ANY medical proceedure and continue with what is best for ourselves.


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## Megs Mom (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Zaq001_
*Point taken







. Actually it confuses me to no end (and I have been spending the better part of my weekend thinking about it) that you can be agnostic and brutally prolife.*
Hm. I'd much rather be "passionately prolife" rather than "brutally prolife". Course I'm Christian, not agnostic, but still....


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Megs Mom_
*
Mother who has an abortion: often scared, depressed, upset, in crisis.

Practitioner who performs an abortion: makes a lot of money off above.*
replace "abortion" with any number of mental illnesses and you have an equally "valid" condemnation of mental health professionals.


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## Megs Mom (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by TiredX2_
*I am willing to accept that many women are often scared, depressed, upset etc... in the aftermath of an abortion.

Are you willing to admit that many women are relieved, happy, etc... after an abortion? Are you willing to admit that many women are scared, depressed, upset etc... after a pregnancy, after an adoption, after giving birth to a child that will very soon die in agonizing pain, after loosing their fertility...?*
Are you willing to accept that many women are often scared, depressed, upset, etc. b/c they feel like they HAVE to have an abortion? Those are the ones I'm talking about, and I believe it's a majority. The ones whose boyfriends have abandoned them, whose mothers are driving them to clinics, whose preborn babies have defects.

Sure, I'll admit there are women who are relieved after an abortion. But I think many of them get hit by the reality of what they've done (ended a child's life) days or months or years down the road.

I'll also admit that women are scared, etc., after a pg, adoption, etc. But I don't see as many doctors out there trying to take financial advantage of these moms.


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## Megs Mom (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by TiredX2_
*A further question.... should a doctor be prevented from performing a proceedure that people later regret? How about circumcision & other plastic surgery? Stomach reduction? What else...? Especially as *adults* we need to weigh the risks and benifits of ANY medical proceedure and continue with what is best for ourselves.*
Not necessarily. But from my perspective they *should* be prevented from performing abortions.


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Megs Mom_
*Not necessarily. But from my perspective they *should* be prevented from performing abortions.*
this is a little OT, but i'm genuinely curious so i'm going to ask anyway.









i noticed "crunchy catholic" in your profile. if the catholic church decided tomorrow to go back to its traditional position of "it's not killing if it happens early enough", would you go along with the church's position?


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

I'm not the one the question is directed to- but I'll bite







as I too am Catholic-

No- b/c I am not pro-life simply b/c of my Catholocism, I am pro-life, b/c I believe that an unborn child has a right to live. Also- the Church has changed it's views on things like abortion, b/c of gained knowledge, with advancements in technology which allow us to clearly see the child in utero, and lower the age of viability- I am very certain the church will not be going back on it's current stance, just as they aren't going to go back to calling people who know the earth is round, heretics.


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

jess: thanks for the reply. watching the episcopalean debate spill out into the public sphere has me wondering how closely people's beliefs are tied to their church and...how much choice of church is tied to beliefs.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Megs Mom_
*Are you willing to accept that many women are often scared, depressed, upset, etc. b/c they feel like they HAVE to have an abortion? Those are the ones I'm talking about, and I believe it's a majority. ..*
Women experience a wide range of emotions, pre and post abortion. However, research has shown that the majority of women do not regret their decision to have an abortion.

From a study published in the August 2000 issue of the Archives of General Psychiatry:

_Two years postabortion, 301 (72%) of 418 women were satisfied with their decision; 306 (69%) of 441 said they would have the abortion again; 315 (72%) of 440 reported more benefit than harm from their abortion; and 308 (80%) of 386 were not depressed. Six (1%) of 442 reported posttraumatic stress disorder._

Here is a link to the abstract of that study.

Here is a website where individual women tell their stories of having had abortions they do not regret.


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## DreamerMama (Feb 2, 2003)

I have had one sister who had an abortion and one sister give a baby up for adoption. In both cases there was a lot of thought put into their decisions. I backed both of them with love and understanding.

Do you know that the sister who gave the child up for adoption regrets it terribly? She actually said it was the worst mistake of her life. My sister who had the abortion (due to abuse) is sad about the abortion but does not regret it. She is actualy thankful that she has not experienced the deep regret my other sister has felt. She is comforted that she did not bring a child into a hellish enviroment.

I feel sorry for the sister who gave her baby up for adoption. It has put a strain on her mentally that I just can't explain. It hurts my heart to see her hurting.

It's not easy. It's not cut and dry. It's not black and white. Every woman is different as every situation is different as well.

We should embrace every woman and give them understanding and love. We shouldn't label them and call them names.

Again, how does that further the pro life stance to call women killers? How does that make their decision easier.

Compassion for all women should be our primary focus.


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## Megs Mom (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by dado_
*this is a little OT, but i'm genuinely curious so i'm going to ask anyway.









i noticed "crunchy catholic" in your profile. if the catholic church decided tomorrow to go back to its traditional position of "it's not killing if it happens early enough", would you go along with the church's position?*
What Patty said.


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## Megs Mom (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by pugmadmama_
*Women experience a wide range of emotions, pre and post abortion. However, research has shown that the majority of women do not regret their decision to have an abortion.*
I wonder how they feel five or ten years down the road? I was looking for studies on this subject as well but then I was thinking about how we could quote studies at each other all day and not get very far, and I also found this

So I'll leave it alone.


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## arthead (Nov 25, 2003)

Well, I just got back into my town this morning, so my apoplogies for abandoning my own question. I've read through the happenings since my original post & am appreciative of all of your differing perspectives. I truly needed your opinions to try to understand ALL sides, which you have given. Hopefully no one has been too bruised by anyone else's opinion, as we shouldn't be.

My question was regarding the word choice often used against women who choose/need to abort a pregnancy & the assumptions that accompany her choice (often by strangers) b'c it IS so full of accusatory disgust & actual HATE - without even knowing the pg woman's situation. A few of the following quoted remarks are what bother me & would sadden me beyond belief if I found myself or a friend in an unwanted or unhealthy pg situation which happened beyond our control.

My main upset with using this type of language is that many women, even if a small percentage, have to live not only with being very responsible in actively preventing a pg and being impregnated anyway or having an unhealthy or life-threatening fetus (we ALL know pg by rape & failed birth control methods, medical grievances exist), but now she must live with the assumption & accusation that she was some irresponsible person who thinks nothing of "killing her baby/child". Please, imagine yourselves in her shoes.

BUT, since I've been gone, I see that many people here agree that it isn't right to simply assume anything about someone else's situations or choices... & although of course you can continue, I think I can gather what I came for from what has been said. I, too, am saddened that some people would rather separate womankind than to simply buffer our opinions or to try to encompass all walks of life & understand that life isn't cut & dried. However, truth is, people have different rates of growth & compassion & will come to be more understanding when their time comes. Thanks for that reminder. Peace.

Quote:

_Originally posted by CK'sMama_
*
Who is being KIND to the baby who will never experience life? Who is being gentle with their souls? Certainly not the women who is choosing to "terminate" it. How can I be kind about that? Really? With all the birth control options and ABSTINENCE what reason is there to even HAVE to have an abortion?

-------

I think a women has the right to be irresponsible by getting pregnant and than aborting her baby, as much as I have the right to hate her actions and be disgusted by it. I am not looking to take away any women's right, but I will never take a kind or understanding stance towards abortion.

I also do not think I am alienating anyone with my inflammatory rhetoric. If a women is on one side of the fence chances are she is staying there. I am not trying to convince anyone to share my opinions, they have a right to their own.

-----

Once they go through the abortion my acceptance stops there. I will not accept abortion, ever, and I should not be asked to. I will not rub it in their faces that they are baby killers by all means, I just don't want to hear about it, and I can not be comforting in that situation. I believe it is wrong, and that is my right.

-----

I am not interested in telling a woman what to do with her body. Just don't try to tell me I should be accepting of an action that I find completely revolting.*

*** Sorry to pick on one poster in particular, but the beliefs that were explained by her are what bothers me... & that poster's beliefs are what I suppose goes thru the minds of someone who would dare assume a black & white situation for all who need to choose to terminate a pregnancy.

- edited for type-o's & language errors -


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