# Genders



## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

I know that I'm going to be fried for this but...what's wrong with gender differences?

I don't see anything wrong with telling a little boy that panties are for girls, please put on your boxer shorts (or briefs or boxer briefs or Spongebob underoos). Or that make-up is for older girls and women, not little boys. Or with telling a girl to sit like a lady if her legs are spread. I'd tell my son that he can't wear a dress. When I was a little girl I wore earrings and lip gloss (well, Vaseline as a very little girl) on my lips every single day. My mother encouraged it, even reminded me if I forgot before I walked out the door.

I personally don't like pink, but I have no problem with "pink is for girls and blue is for boys." I wholly embrace my femininity and the softer side of being a woman, even though I'm tough as nails when I have to be. But every woman is when the need arises, even the softest, sweetest, meekest woman.

I see boys and girls as apples and oranges. Both sweet, both good for you, both equally delicious. But some prefer apples and some prefer oranges and that doesn't make either one less of a wonderful fruit. Each is just as good as the other, they're just different.

I want boys and girls to have equal opportunities in education, athletics and everything else. But I don't think that either gender has to dilute itself to make those oppertunities happen. What's wrong with genders being different from each other?


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Well.... I think it's the rigid stereotypes that are harmful. I see definite differences in my son and daughter, but they are free to be who they are as people and to explore all kinds of things... my son has always enjoyed dressing up in silks and fairy wings, my dd loves to climb and dig in the dirt. I wouldn't feel comfortable discouraging these activities because they are part of who they are as individuals. I rty not to encourage my dd to be preoccupied with her appearance. At 12 she is just starting to wear a little lipgloss and that's fine because it's her choice.


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## elizaveta (Jul 1, 2005)

I was going to say I was with you on this, but I'm sort of on the fence I figured out as I was typing this out. I'll be honest in this: I would never encourage my son to wear dresses. If he asked to wear one in public I would probably find it a bit strange, but I would have to find a way to explain it to him without sounding as if he is bad for wanting to wear a dress or it is bad to want to wear a dress, because when they are young it is just clothes and they don't see the labels we put on the world.

I do find it peculiar that a girl can wear pants nowadays and it's acceptable, but boys used to wear "dresses", but it's no longer acceptable. Time is so weird!

I would like to encourage a healthy femininity and my daughter sees my example and wants to be a girly girl already, but I think many girls go through a stage where dresses are pure evil and bows in the hair are horrible and they shouldn't be forced to wear them. I didn't like dresses because I felt they impaired me from all the running, horse riding, bike riding I was doing.







But I enjoy them more as an adult.


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## KayleeZoo (Apr 8, 2003)

I think that society will teach them enough about gender stereotypes; we make it a point not to be rigid in our home about such things. As I type this, my almost 3yo DS is asleep in his 5yo's sisters new dress; I bought dresses for the girls at Costco today, and he saw his 5yo sister put one on when we got home. He immediately took off his jeans and T shirt and asked, "Mommy, where's my new dress?" I told him that I hadn't bought him one, and he started to cry. His sister immediately told him that he could wear her other new dress. They danced and twirled around the living room together, then he went down for a nap. He is also sporting a crew cut (that's how Daddy wears his hair, and DS wants to be like Daddy) and pink fingernails- because his sisters have their nails painted and he wants to be like them, too.

One of my girls is very feminine- dresses, different hair style every day, wants to wear lipgloss, adores sparkly sandals, etc. The other is much more of a tomboy- she is most comfortable in clothing where she can move freely and loves flip flops that don't encumber her feet. She'd wash and comb her hair once monthly if I'd let her. We don't encourage or discourage femininity- they are what they are, and they are WHO they are. We're okay with both of those things.

I love that he admires and wants to emulate different family members. I think that the world will start dictating soon enough how he "should" dress. My girls wear dresses and jeans/T shirts. Why should my very young son be denied the same choices?


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

I don't agree with the precept that much of anything you listed is inherently feminine. It's virtually all a product of socialization and is largely arbitrary. It's not something I need to go strong on with my kid.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I beleive in embracing children for who they are naturally, not definining them by rigid gender roles. At the same time, I see nothing wrong with having a "girly girl" or a "boyish boy" if that's who they are naturally.

I also see nothing wrong with traditional gender roles being available for adults who choose to embrace them. I dress in very feminine ways and encourage my daughters to do the same. My oldest is required to wear dresses or skirts to school and my other daughter wears dresses or skirts almost constantly by choice. DS only wears pants when at school, out in public, etc. But if he wants to wear a dress for "playing dress up" that's fine with me!

I see a big difference between modeling traditional gender roles, and enforcing them on young children. If DD wants to dress up like Daddy or DS wants to dress up like Mommy, that's OK with me. If a young child of either gender wants to go to the supermarket in a Spiderman costume, or a sparkly pink fairy costume, or any other strange combination of clothes, that's OK with me.

By age 9 or so I expect kids to dress "appropriately" in public most of the time. If I had a child who felt drawn to cross-dressing, I'd figure out the best way to support that child- I'm not 100% sure what that would look like as that's not an issue I'm facing with any of my children.


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## DaughterOfKali (Jul 15, 2007)

I believe that each child has the right to decide what he/she wants to wear or play with.

My son loves to dress up as a princess or bride. There's no way that I'd tell him that he can't because he's not a girl. The only thing that I'd be worried about is how others would treat him if, say, he wants to wear Cinderella socks to school. I explain to him that some people think that Cinderella/gowns/dolls, etc are just for girls and may treat him differently or even be mean to him. Ultimately, I'll let him decide.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

I hear what you're saying, OP, and don't have a good answer. There are so many gray areas in my mind. For example, I don't feel that pink is for girls and blue for boys (they're just colors!) but do agree that girls wear panties and boys wear undies.

Also, I think that you have to be really careful b/c a gender difference which is really innocuous and not a big deal can easily creep into an area where it IS a big deal.

For example, think of how many men FREAK that their 3 year old wants to play with dolls. My friends DH was upset that her DS was helping her string beads! So silly!!! And I've heard about men who get upset that their son wants a play kitchen!







:

So while it may seem like no big deal that "boys wear blue" it becomes a big deal when the blue-wearing boy is not allowed to play w/ pretend food. I would just rather not focus on gender differences to begin with I guess.


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## filiadeluna (Oct 2, 2007)

I wouldn't try to MAKE a child do one thing or the other. If I have a daughter, she can be girly if she wants, or a tomboy, but both will be of her own choice. If I have a son, he can be macho or he can do more stereotypically feminine thingsl. I will embrace whatever interests them so long as it is safe and age-appropriate. I won't care either way as long as my children are happy. Of course I will teach them what is appropriate for school and public vs. home. I don't think it would sit to well with teachers/administration to allow my (hypothetical) son to wear a dress to school.... plus it could be a source of bullying by other children. At home, however, anything goes.

Even though I have always dreamed of having a daughter so I could dress her in girly things as a baby and when she's little, I wouldn't do it to the point where it's overkill (I'm not a fan of pink anyhow). Once she reaches the age where she can help pick out her clothes, I will simply be a guide (i.e. "well, you can't wear a bathing suit to school, but you can pick any color shirt/pants/dress/whatever") rather than making the decision for her.


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## aaronsmom (Jan 22, 2007)

For a long time I wore men's underwear, boxers and briefs, because they were way more comfortable than woman's for me. Nobody ever told me "you can't wear those because they are for boys" and whose business would it be to do so? So, in turn, if my son wanted to wear panties, or a skirt, or tights it wouldn't be mine or anyone else's business if he did. It's his body. Same would go for DD if she chose to wear or do something "boyish". As long as they aren't harming themselves or anyone else (and by harm I don't mean offend) then they can take on any role they choose.








ETA: DH and I just got into a debate over this a week ago. I bought DS a play kitchen for his 2nd birthday (which he loves, BTW) and DH was upset about it because a "play kitchen is for girls". I was very offended because my father just so happens to be an award winning executive chef!!


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## boysrus (Dec 2, 2001)

Don't have time to post much, but I just read this awesome book for class. It is called Gender Vertigo by Barbara Risman. She gets into the concept of "going gender" and what can go wrong with it.


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kama'aina mama* 
I don't agree with the precept that much of anything you listed is inherently feminine.

In the interest of not pissing anyone off, I kept my examples deliberately vague and generic. There are quite a few things that I've read on these boards that everyone posted and said how cute they were that came to mind as being fantastic examples of gender dilution, but I'm not for bashing anyone's kid for any reason.


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

My dd recently asked me what boxer shorts were. She heard the term, and didn't understand it. I told her that boxer shorts are underwear made for boys, and explained what they look like. Now if my dd said "I want those" then I would have bought her boxer shorts instead of panties the next time we were buying underwear. I would never tell her she can't wear boxer shorts "cause she is a girl".

If I had a son I wouldn't tell him he can't wear a dress cause he is a boy. I wouldn't tell my son that make-up is for women, I would tell him that makeup is something people wear for fun, or decoration.

I think it's how we word things. I also wouldn't tell my dd to "sit like a lady" but if she is wearing a dress, and pulling at it or sitting with her underwear for all the world to see. Then I would tell her to keep her skirt down.

I'm not saying that I don't see differences between boys and girls, but at the same time I don't believe in ever saying A is for boys not girls, B is for girls not boys. I want to give my dd the freedom to choose and desire anything she wants. I don't want to place gender restrictions on her. They don't make sense to me. Why are dresses for girls, and not boys? If a boy wants to wear a dress does that mean he wants to be a girl, no. If a boy wants to wear a dress does that mean he is gay, no. My dd went threw a "no dresses" phase, does that mean she doesn't want to be a girl? It's just all silly to me.

I just personally believe that when we start saying certain things are for boys or for girls then that just leads to our children accepting other restrictions in the future.


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## sojourn (Oct 8, 2006)

Oooooh, I've got one!!!!

I've been told in not so many words, twice this year to be exact (two parent/teacher conference one on ones) that my son is "too sensitive". He is. He always has been. He always worries about others' feelings. We've always told our boys that it is ok to cry and to let it out. The thing is, that the teacher is fearing that he'll be picked on shortly (in the next couple of years) for crying outwardly and openly in class or on the playground. He's going to get beat up for crying and showing emotion.

You know what? As much as I dislike everything about that, a piece of me knows she is right. You know why? Because kids can be brutal. We all went to jr high and hs. She just wants him to buck up and use restraint and not openly cry. I almost agree w/her, at least in a school setting, but then what message am I sending him?

While it was off putting to hear, I did "get" the underlying message. It is a time worn message-boys don't cry. Like it or not, they just don't, or they have to fight to defend it. Then I find myself being....sigh....._thankful_ that he's already done pads football and wrestling, so that _when_ the day comes that he gets picked on for crying in public, he will be able to defend himself. Then I just shudder as my next thought.

I feel like sometimes there is no win in certain gendered issues. He's going to be sensitive his whole life b/c that is part of what makes him who he is. He is also rough and tumble and will put you in a full nelson faster than you can say, OUCH!

I need to read this thread. I think it will help me, if not him.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

My daughter has a pair of "boy" briefs. I wouldn't be surprised if my boy ends up with panties.

I know lots of older boys and men who wear make up. Both my kids play with make up and nail polish.

I don't agree with "sitting like a lady."

My girls wears pink and blue and every colour. So does my boy. So does every male and female adult I know.

Oh yeah and my boy has long hair.

I have no problem with gender differences. Having a son and a daughter, however, have shown me that there are very few, legitimate differences. In fact, my daughter is more stereotypically like a boy and my son is more stereotypically like a girl.

None of what you listed is specifically girl or boy. I will not limit my children in any way.


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trinity6232000* 
I just personally believe that when we start saying certain things are for boys or for girls then that just leads to our children accepting other restrictions in the future.

But there _are_ other restrictions in the future that they _will_ have to accept. I don't much care for clothes. But I can't roam the streets naked. Being nude doesn't hurt anyone, but society expects for people to wear clothes so I'm restricted to my home for nakey time. We can't hit people, even if they suck. We don't spit our food on the floor of restaurants, even if it tastes awful. It's just not a done thing.


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
My daughter has a pair of "boy" briefs. I wouldn't be surprised if my boy ends up with panties.

I know lots of older boys and men who wear make up. Both my kids play with make up and nail polish.

I don't agree with "sitting like a lady."

My girls wears pink and blue and every colour. So does my boy. So does every male and female adult I know.

Oh yeah and my boy has long hair.

I have no problem with gender differences. Having a son and a daughter, however, have shown me that there are very few, legitimate differences. In fact, my daughter is more stereotypically like a boy and my son is more stereotypically like a girl.

None of what you listed is specifically girl or boy. *I will not limit my children in any way*.

Bolding mine









I also like what a pp said about society doing it enough for us (strictly defining gender).


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## Calidris (Apr 17, 2004)

But why can't the boy have Dora panties if he is a Dora fan (they don't make Dora boxers), and why can't a girl wear boxers?
Sure there are differences between boys and girls but why should they be forced into artificial differences at a young age?
Little girls should sit quietly and walk sedately while the little boys run rampant? Unfair in my view.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
In the interest of not pissing anyone off, I kept my examples deliberately vague and generic. There are quite a few things that I've read on these boards that everyone posted and said how cute they were that came to mind as being fantastic examples of gender dilution, but I'm not for bashing anyone's kid for any reason.

You say "gender dilution" as though there are essential categories of gender that have or can be been eroded over time. There aren't. Gender norms are cultural constructions, and different societies "perform" gender differently. In the US, pink used to be a "boys'" color and blue a "girls'" color and both genders used to wear dresses at young ages. So what does it mean to say that allowing boys to wear lots of pink or dresses is "diluting" gender; on the contrary, we might see it as a return to "traditional" gender norms.


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
But there _are_ other restrictions in the future that they _will_ have to accept. I don't much care for clothes. But I can't roam the streets naked. Being nude doesn't hurt anyone, but society expects for people to wear clothes so I'm restricted to my home for nakey time. We can't hit people, even if they suck. We don't spit our food on the floor of restaurants, even if it tastes awful. It's just not a done thing.


Yes, BUT I don't want my children to have to accept limitations because of GENDER.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calidris* 
But why can't the boy have Dora panties if he is a Dora fan (they don't make Dora boxers), and why can't a girl wear boxers?
Sure there are differences between boys and girls but why should they be forced into artificial differences at a young age?
Little girls should sit quietly and walk sedately while the little boys run rampant? Unfair in my view.

ding ding ding.

My son loves, loves, loves Dora and my daughter loves Spongebob. Those character items are pretty segregated towards the opposite gender. It is ridiculous.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mom4tot* 
Yes, BUT I don't want my children to have to accept limitations because of GENDER.

Exactly.


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## sojourn (Oct 8, 2006)

We have diego now, Calidris. keep up. Dora needed an alter ego (or cousin) b/c the undies don't have a front pee hole.









LOL

Sigh. I admit I paint my boys' toenails b/c they think it is fun when I do mine, and I buy fairy wings right along w/the other carp I buy. I will admit too, that for the most part, they like having their own stuff, and that involves pirates and ships and trains and things that aren't "paint your face" in nature. I let them pick out their own things and very rarely do they pick 'girly' things. They will point out that I might like it, however. I've never gendered toys, movies, shows, anything, but they have. I've asked them if they want I Carly or HS musical or any of that when we do the tv gig, and they are always like, uhhhh NOoooo, spongebob or drake and josh, please. No fairytopia here nor tinkerbell in the peter pan book, but they did identify readily w/PP and the lost boys. Again, all on them and not me. Maybe some is ingrained or hardwired to begin with?


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

I was so born in the wrong century. I just couldn't see myself buying my son panties. And then at what age do you stop buying your sons panties and dresses? Or do you ever stop? Most moms buy their kids underpants until they're at least 15. Do you buy your son black lace Vickies if he asks for them? Or let him borrow your dresses? Or tell your c cup daughter that she doesn't have to wear a bra because her brother doesn't have to? Please don't think that I'm being mean, anyone. I just can't figure it out.


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mom4tot* 
Yes, BUT I don't want my children to have to accept limitations because of GENDER.

Okay, so would you be okay with your 16 year old daughter being topless at the beach? 16 year old boys do it.


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Okay, so would you be okay with your 16 year old daughter being topless at the beach? 16 year old boys do it.


If we don't raise our young girls in proper modesty, they will want to walk around topless?


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## aaronsmom (Jan 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Okay, so would you be okay with your 16 year old daughter being topless at the beach? 16 year old boys do it.

In all honesty, yes, I would be totally okay with it. Only problem is that here in the US, the law restricts us from doing so and I think that is totally sexist since there is NOTHING inherently sexual about breasts.


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## lovesdaffodils (Jul 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
I was so born in the wrong century. I just couldn't see myself buying my son panties. And then at what age do you stop buying your sons panties and dresses? Or do you ever stop? Most moms buy their kids underpants until they're at least 15. Do you buy your son black lace Vickies if he asks for them? Or let him borrow your dresses? Or tell your c cup daughter that she doesn't have to wear a bra because her brother doesn't have to? Please don't think that I'm being mean, anyone. I just can't figure it out.

My son has lots of "girly" things. He loves the color pink. He likes to dress up like a princess. He also likes lots of "boyish" things too. I just don't see why he has to be denied certain colors, forms of play, or whatever, just because of his genitalia.

As to the quoted portion here, there are adult males who prefer women's clothing.







If he prefers dresses or black lace underwear, why does that matter? It doesn't make him less of a person in any way. Oh, and lots of women don't wear bras either!


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aaronsmom* 
In all honesty, yes, I would be totally okay with it. Only problem is that here in the US, the law restricts us from doing so and I think that is totally sexist since there is NOTHING inherently sexual about breasts.

There's nothing inherently sexual about a butt either. In fact, it's (primary) use is far from sexy. But that doesn't make it okay to run around in assless chaps.


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aaronsmom* 
In all honesty, yes, I would be totally okay with it. Only problem is that here in the US, the law restricts us from doing so and I think that is totally sexist since there is *NOTHING inherently sexual about breasts*.

Yep, what she said


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## lovesdaffodils (Jul 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
There's nothing inherently sexual about a butt either. In fact, it's (primary) use is far from sexy. But that doesn't make it okay to run around in assless chaps.

Women do wear thongs at the beach, though, which hardly covers the butt! I think butt coverage is just incidental to genital coverage in most underwear/clothing/swimwear.


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovesdaffodils* 
As to the quoted portion here, there are adult males who prefer women's clothing.







If he prefers dresses or black lace underwear, why does that matter? It doesn't make him less of a person in any way. Oh, and lots of women don't wear bras either!


You know, you're right. I forgot where I was for a moment. Thank you for that little dose of reality.


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## aaronsmom (Jan 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
There's nothing inherently sexual about a butt either. In fact, it's (primary) use is far from sexy. But that doesn't make it okay to run around in assless chaps.

Yeah, but poop doesn't come out of boobs. Fecal matter is bodily waste, breast milk is not. That's a totally different ballgame.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
I was so born in the wrong century. I just couldn't see myself buying my son panties. And then at what age do you stop buying your sons panties and dresses? Or do you ever stop? Most moms buy their kids underpants until they're at least 15. Do you buy your son black lace Vickies if he asks for them? Or let him borrow your dresses? Or tell your c cup daughter that she doesn't have to wear a bra because her brother doesn't have to? Please don't think that I'm being mean, anyone. I just can't figure it out.

Yes if my teenage son wanted lace panties, I would buy them for him. I would be glad that he came to me with that issue.

There is no way in hell I would make my daughter wear a bra.

I wouldn't care if my daughter wanted to go topless at the beach. Toplessness is legal here and there are specific topless beaches. I don't see the big deal.


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## tuansprincess (Oct 25, 2005)

Interestingly this is going in the direction of what is socially acceptable for boys and girls to NOT do when the underlying issue seems to be that of allowing your dc to express who they are and accepting them no matter what. Not easy when you have society breathing down your back.


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## Calidris (Apr 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sojourn* 
We have diego now, Calidris. keep up. Dora needed an alter ego (or cousin) b/c the undies don't have a front pee hole.

















:
yep, and my DD is Diego crazy now, though she has not insisted on Diego underwear yet.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Okay, so would you be okay with your 16 year old daughter being topless at the beach? 16 year old boys do it.

In parts of Europe she would be doing that in the company of all her friends. Don't assume that American prudishness is an inherent trait.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
I was so born in the wrong century.

Ahh, but in the previous century pink was a boy colour, and blue (at least light shades) a girl colour, so you would have had to relearn your gender stereotypes.

And that's the thing. There are (in general) some stereotypes to which boys and girls adhere (certainly not ALL boys and girls). There are far more which are culturally constrained, and which change from era to era, or with the culture. And most of those are not "natural" differences, and I do not feel comfortable forcing (or even encouraging) my daughter to conform to them.


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## sojourn (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tuansprincess* 
Interestingly this is going in the direction of what is socially acceptable for boys and girls to NOT do when the underlying issue seems to be that of allowing your dc to express who they are and accepting them no matter what. Not easy when you have society breathing down your back.










I'm at this crossroads. I don't see anything wrong w/him showing emotion. I personally think it makes him MORE of a "man" or human, or in touch w/feelings self, but society dictates that he must at some soon to be determined point stifle this. Again, I just sigh. I don't want him picked on, but I don't want him to lose his sense of self. If it is part of him, then good and so be it. If he gets picked on for it, then what? And what if he does full nelson someone and full on tackle like football practice for being made fun of? What then? Again, I just sigh.


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## mshollyk (Sep 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
But that doesn't make it okay to run around in assless chaps.

wait...

it's not?

oh man, guess i better take them back then, darn.


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mshollyk* 
wait...

it's not?

oh man, guess i better take them back then, darn.

Okay, I take that back. It's just fine for me to prance about in assless anything at my house.


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## lovesdaffodils (Jul 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mshollyk* 
wait...

it's not?

oh man, guess i better take them back then, darn.









:


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
You know, you're right. I forgot where I was for a moment. Thank you for that little dose of reality.

Can you clarify this for me?


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## accountclosed3 (Jun 13, 2006)

_I don't agree with the precept that much of anything you listed is inherently feminine. It's virtually all a product of socialization and is largely arbitrary._

this is absolutely my perspective as well.

i think it's also important to note that gender roles do not equal politeness, social dignity and appropriate behavior. it simply denotes a certain mode of expressing oneself socially.

both males and females are required to follow certain social dictates--such as wearing clothing in public--but the shape of that clothing is only a social identifier of gender (dresses vs suits for example) and neither of those need be worn by someone of a given sex (that is, males can wear dresses and identify as "feminine" and the opposite) in order to be "appropriate" or "right" or "polite."

i also value masculinity and femininity very highly, but i do not necessarily attach these things to sex, and to be honest, i feel that body sexes carry a majority of both attributes (when we talk about things like "being tough" vs "being soft/emotional"--because both men and women need to be both of these things), and that some socially identify more with one side or aspect than the other.

and sometimes, that matches what we expect in regards to that person's sex, and sometimes it doesn't match it.

and i think it's ok whether it matches social expectations regarding sex or not.


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## Kritto (Apr 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mshollyk* 
wait...

it's not?

oh man, guess i better take them back then, darn.

MsHollyK, I







you! I just spit out the tea I was drinking when I read your reply. Thanks, I needed that.


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## greenluv (Jul 26, 2002)

Oh jeez....I can't even...ugh. Never mind. I have PMS, I can't do this now and not get myself into trouble.


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## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Wow. Some of these attitudes are sad and scary at the same time.

My DS has in the past, and may again in the future:

~Sported super long, soft, flowing hair, and was refered to as "she" or "her" or my "daughter" countless times. Like water off a ducks back...

~Had said hair died pink/magenta

~Had his fingernails and toenails painted (any shade from pink to red to blue)

~Carried around and "cared for" a babydoll name Sarabi

~Worn lipstick (he now uses lipgloss or chapstick, but that's for dry lips, not fun)

~Played dress up, complete with high heeled shoes and purse

~Worn those silly little stick on earings, in hearts and stars.

...FWIW, he knows he's a boy, likes being a boy (far as I know anyways), and plays a mean tackle football on a kiddie league (and any other sport you can think of). He's no less of a boy than any other boy you can think of.

Now...when he's 15, would I buy him black lace Vickies? Hell no-them ishts are expensive! But he can have the frilliest Target panties he can find. Borrow my dresses? Eh...I don't own many, and he's gonna be a skinny dude, while I'm a chubby chick. But if it fits okay, then sure, *why not?* (and that's a real question, not rhetorical in the least)

I would also tell my _DD_ cup daughter that she doesn't have to wear a bra if she didn't want to. As long as she's comfortable, then Yay!

It's really not that hard to understand--it shouldn't be, anyway. I don't like to jam everyone into uncomfortable little boxes, or slap labels on everyone that walks by. Ditto that x10 for my children.


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mom4tot* 
Can you clarify this for me?

Oh sure. I just forgot for a moment how different my views on most things are from most people. Even amongst those who's views are different from most people. An outcast of outcasts of sorts.


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## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calidris* 
yep, and my DD is Diego crazy now, though she has not insisted on Diego underwear yet.

That's cuz she's always nekkid, Cal!


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## Calidris (Apr 17, 2004)

:

good point there


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## glendora (Jan 24, 2005)

A little boy who wants Dora panties or sparkly nailpolish at 3 isn't likely to grow up to be an chap-wearing Sweet Transvestite from TranSEXUAL Trannnnsylvania.

(And, if he did, more power to him.)


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## accountclosed3 (Jun 13, 2006)

_And then at what age do you stop buying your sons panties and dresses? Or do you ever stop? Most moms buy their kids underpants until they're at least 15. Do you buy your son black lace Vickies if he asks for them? Or let him borrow your dresses?_

a friend of mine has a son, who is now 11, who wears both "boys" and "girls" clothes--and yes, in public. his mother buys him what he wants, and he wears it when he wants and how he wants. he wears a lot of dresses and what not, and then he'll wear jeans and t-shirts.

he does not feel "like a girl" and a lot of people ask him (and his mother) if they suspect that he's gay or transgendered. he as asserted that he feels exactly like a boy, that he likes being male (having male genitalia), and so on.

but he also likes the shapes, colors, and textures of 'girl's' clothing, and he likes the creativity of getting to "play" with both and wear both out in public.

he doesn't wear make up, btw, as he doesn't like the way it feels on his skin or the way it looks (painted, he says).

he just does what he does. he plays sports, he plays video games, and he plays dolls with his little sister.

everyone is perfectly accepting of this--it was harder when he was young because teachers and elders of other sorts would give him trouble, but today, it's considered no problem at all.

_Or tell your c cup daughter that she doesn't have to wear a bra because her brother doesn't have to?_

right now, i'm bigger than c-cup and not wearing bras. my bras (c-cup) don't fit because i'm pregnant, no other bras are comfortable, and to be honest, what fits is very expensive and i don't want a temporary bra that costs $55. so, i go without.

i think it's safe and healthy to go without as well, as i think it's good for breast health to go braless occassionally (or as much as one wants), and so while i wouldn't tell my daughter it's ok to go braless because her brother can go braless, i would tell her that it's ok to go braless if that's what she wants to do.

there was also a comment about being topless at the beach. Aside from the fact that it's illegal in the US, which i feel is sexist and aribitrary, i have no problem with a daughter going topless or even nude at a beach.

i've been in other countries where nudity is normal, and where women going topless is normal. in these areas, girls of all ages go topless or nude--from little baby girls to elder women and everyone in between.

i feel that these people have a sense of "appropriate modesty" and so on, but they're just in a different culture where nudity doesn't equal sexuality, and in other environments (work, etc), they wouldn't be nude. it's allowed at the beach, or the park, but it's not on the street or at work or what have you.

it's just different, and i'm perfectly ok with it. it is my preference to be nude at the beach, personally. but, with so many nude beaches closing, i end up going to regular beaches in my bikini.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
I was so born in the wrong century. I just couldn't see myself buying my son panties. And then at what age do you stop buying your sons panties and dresses? Or do you ever stop? Most moms buy their kids underpants until they're at least 15. Do you buy your son black lace Vickies if he asks for them? Or let him borrow your dresses? Or tell your c cup daughter that she doesn't have to wear a bra because her brother doesn't have to? Please don't think that I'm being mean, anyone. I just can't figure it out.

Um yes to all of the above. Society would already try to tell my son (and daughter) he was wrong for being him why would I agree with that screwed up message instead of loving my child unconditionally for who he is?

I will not tell my children who to be and I am so sad that others will try to.
My older son who is 6.5 yrs. old is already starting to get that certian things he likes are not acceptable for boys. And quite frankly it pisses me off and breaks my heart at the same time. I can not fathom how or why decent people would perpetuate such arbitrary crap that is HURTFUL to our children. FWIW, I am fighting it tooth and nail in my own home and doing everything I can to comfort and reassure my son (and my daughter).


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## sojourn (Oct 8, 2006)

great movie reference, btw.

That's NOT my worry, glendora. As he turns nine next month, I DO worry about how other rough and tumble boys will take his crying in public. I mean, he doesn't make rivers, but he's been known to break down w/emotion in public. And in class. Maybe he's going to be this great one wonderful illuminator of light and show how to get in touch w/your inner feelings. Then again, maybe he'll be picked last for teams b/c he's the 'crybaby'. This IS the reality of the public school system that we/he are/is in. That's why I just sigh. And wonder what to do.

Anyone and everyone PLEASE DO tell me I'm overreacting or I'm wrong or how I can better teach him. I really don't know what to do. I just want to protect him. I also don't want him to lose or stifle part of what makes him who he is. kwim? Tell me you've never heard of "boys don't cry"......


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Ya know, that's the third time in less than a year that I've been told that my thoughts were hurtful to children on this board. I have no desire to hurt children. As of this moment I officially declare that my stance on hurting children is that it should not be done. Hurting children is not okay. Phantaja does not advocate hurting children.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I don't think that people who push stereotypical gender roles are purposefully trying to hurt children but it does anyway. My statement was ingeneral and not necessarily directed at you though.


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## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Following this same logic....

My brown DS should speak in slang, throw away his Simple Plan CD, and have his pants around his ankles. He should also be a good singer, have killer jump-shot and forgo the mayonaise.

If he does okay in school, affirmative action will help him beat out a white kid for a spot at Yale. Maybe if he's _real_ successful, he can be lucky enough to marry him a white chick.

And I should support and reinforce that, because that's what a good chunk of society thinks.


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## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
I have no desire to hurt children. As of this moment I officially declare that my stance on hurting children is that it should not be done. Hurting children is not okay. Phantaja does not advocate hurting children.

I understand you don't mean to. No one accused you (or anyone else on this thread) of being malicious. But the same way that cloaked racism still hurts, cloaked sexism hurts too, Phantaja. It really does.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Ya know, that's the third time in less than a year that I've been told that my thoughts were hurtful to children on this board. I have no desire to hurt children. As of this moment I officially declare that my stance on hurting children is that it should not be done. Hurting children is not okay. Phantaja does not advocate hurting children.










I think your OP on this thread was fine, Phantaja, and it bums me out that you came here with an attitude of truly trying to understand, and yet you get flamed.

People, can we help someone understand a touchy topic without making them feel like crap? I hate it when we have a nerve touched and then get kind of condescending and stuff.... (and I know I've been guilty of this so I'm not being all high and mighty







).

The OP seems to genuinely want to understand better, so can we do this in a decent way?


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## Cassiopeia (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mshollyk* 
wait...

it's not?

oh man, guess i better take them back then, darn.









and you are in NY, right? 'cause all us NYers can walk around topless if we wanna.


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## lovesdaffodils (Jul 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
Ya know, that's the third time in less than a year that I've been told that my thoughts were hurtful to children on this board. I have no desire to hurt children. As of this moment I officially declare that my stance on hurting children is that it should not be done. Hurting children is not okay. Phantaja does not advocate hurting children.

I don't anyone would accuse you of purposely hurting children. But say you know a child who doesn't fit in his/her assigned gender role. If you put yourself in that child's place, can you understand how being told "You can't have this because you are a boy/girl" makes them feel that there is something wrong with them? Being told, even indirectly, that they are bad or wrong for what they like and feel is very damaging.


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## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 

People, can we help someone understand a touchy topic without making them feel like crap?

The OP seems to genuinely want to understand better, so can we do this in a decent way?

Who has done this? I see people getting passionate about something they feel strongly about, but I honestly don't see flaming. And I don't see anyone trying to make anyone else feel like crap.

How do you propose we be decent? I'm asking sincerely, because I've seen nothing here that hasn't qualified as such.


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CookieMonsterMommy* 
. He should also be a good singer, have killer jump-shot and forgo the mayonaise.


Quite frankly, I think that everyone should forgo the mayonnaise. It's gross. Miracle Whip for everyone!


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I just want to point something out about the whole "boys crying in public" thing.

Crying in public, and in school, isnt' socially acceptable for girls either. DD2 has had incredible trouble making friends because she's "too sensitive". The only solution I found was to pull her out of school- she just didn't fit well or learn well in the school environment.


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 








I think your OP on this thread was fine, Phantaja, and it bums me out that you came here with an attitude of truly trying to understand, and yet you get flamed.

People, can we help someone understand a touchy topic without making them feel like crap? I hate it when we have a nerve touched and then get kind of condescending and stuff.... (and I know I've been guilty of this so I'm not being all high and mighty







).

The OP seems to genuinely want to understand better, so can we do this in a decent way?

Thank you, Karina, that was very kind of you, but I'm cool. No one's being mean. I put my big girl panties on this morning.


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## wombatclay (Sep 4, 2005)

Anthropologically speaking... "sex" is the physical equipment you've been born with while "gender" is the socio-culturally constructed packaging that goes along with this equipment. As such, "gender" is always changing as different groups and different times lead to different packaging. It only seems "solid" if you look at it in a snapshot. Stand back and you realize just how fluid and shifting "gender" is.

Do I have a problem with a person embracing a specific set of gender norms? No. But I don't feel the need to pick a set of norms for them either or enforce all the "parts" of that set if they only want to follow some of them. If they want to express themselves in line with all, some, or none of the socially constructed gender norms that is their choice. And if the gender expression my children feel most comfortable with goes against the gender expression of the US majority I'll do what I can to support them in their self expression.

Oh, and topless? Legal in NY for both sexes as long as it is for "non-sexual" purposes. There is a mixed sex shirts/skin game in one of our local parks and summer weather brings it's share of topless folk of both sexes. Of course, with a few feet of snow on the ground most people don't want to go skin anyway.


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## sojourn (Oct 8, 2006)

Ruthla, I take everything you say in like a sponge (b/c I like your advice) but I'm not pulling them out of school for tears. There are 3 of them and this is a good school district. Call it tough love or a tough mama, but I think he can either adapt now or later. If that is bad, then fine. I didn't cry in class, and I did have a whole horse cart load of stuff to fuss over by the time I was his age...maybe that is why I just sigh and don't know what to do w/him. Sometimes I'd like to pull him aside and say, hey-by your age I was smacked around and was on dad #3, but I'd never do that to him. But sometimes I DO....ohhhhh boyyyyy, DO I just want to say, buck up lil camper. Grow a set. c'mon. I'd do that if he was a girl, too.

mmmm hmmmm.

sooooo, now you know where I'm coming from when I say I don't know how to deal w/a kid who is a bit tearful b/c he's too emotional when there is absolutely nothing wrong w/family life or school life and he gets great grades, but he sometimes feels the weight of the world on his shoulders. WHAT do I do???

Sure, this post ain't pc, but I never claimed to be as such. I do try to be nice, however.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CookieMonsterMommy* 
Who has done this? I see people getting passionate about something they feel strongly about, but I honestly don't see flaming. And I don't see anyone trying to make anyone else feel like crap.

How do you propose we be decent? I'm asking sincerely, because I've seen nothing here that hasn't qualified as such.


Sorry. I guess I was just meaning in general. Phantaja's post that people have said she is hurtful to children touched a nerve. And she said she put on her bgp (not boxers...hehehe) so she is fine.


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## glendora (Jan 24, 2005)

sojourn, is there really anything you _can_ do? Even if you told him to "buck up," it's not like you could force him.


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## sojourn (Oct 8, 2006)

eh, you're right glendora. I just like to hear it from the outside. From outside sources. I'm gonna go watch rocky horror, I guess. and giggle and sing all the way thru.....

THANK YOU.

sometimes I just like safety in numbers or validation or an outside opinion to say I'm on the right track.







and









I like and endorse this thread. This thread for '09!! **giggles**


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## Mama Dragon (Dec 5, 2005)

My 10 year ols is incredibly senstive to remarks from people, he's the outcast 99% of the time







He comes home crying a lot, even when playing with friends. I just hug him, tell him I hope he's feeling better soon and ask if there's anything I can do. Most of the time, it's all he needs. He's homeschooled for this and many other reasons though (it was much worse when he was in school).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sojourn* 
Ruthla, I take everything you say in like a sponge (b/c I like your advice) but I'm not pulling them out of school for tears. There are 3 of them and this is a good school district. Call it tough love or a tough mama, but I think he can either adapt now or later. If that is bad, then fine. I didn't cry in class, and I did have a whole horse cart load of stuff to fuss over by the time I was his age...maybe that is why I just sigh and don't know what to do w/him. Sometimes I'd like to pull him aside and say, hey-by your age I was smacked around and was on dad #3, but I'd never do that to him. But sometimes I DO....ohhhhh boyyyyy, DO I just want to say, buck up lil camper. Grow a set. c'mon. I'd do that if he was a girl, too.

mmmm hmmmm.

sooooo, now you know where I'm coming from when I say I don't know how to deal w/a kid who is a bit tearful b/c he's too emotional when there is absolutely nothing wrong w/family life or school life and he gets great grades, but he sometimes feels the weight of the world on his shoulders. WHAT do I do???

Sure, this post ain't pc, but I never claimed to be as such. I do try to be nice, however.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

I don't think there is anything wrong with saying girls and women are different from boys and men. We are different in many positive ways.

I think it becomes harmful to rigidly assign things like certain colors, characters, fabrics, toys, hair length, or emotions to a particular gender because it tells a child that if they go outside of that there is something wrong with them... that they are less manly or less womanly. I feel those are the false messages about gender that we need to break away from.

Is there really something wrong with a boy who likes the feel of lace or the color pink instead of blue cotton? A dress is a piece of cloth not how strong or how soft a person is.

If my dd doesn't want to wear a bra that is her business. If she never wears lip gloss or earrings that doesn't mean she is less womanly.


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## orangebird (Jun 30, 2002)

Interesting thread.

If it were legal, I would have no problem with a 16 yo daughter topless on a beach. Really.

And if I had a boy who wanted to wear girls clothes I don't think there is an age I would stop, I mean, besides the normal point where they buy their own clothes around adulthood.

I have a 15 yo son right now and within his budget I don't regulate what he buys- within reason no assless chaps. They have to be OK for school type clothes. If he wanted to buy girls underwear with that, whatever. He has bought some girl items in the past. Tight jeans or t-shirts, I don't see a problem with it.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *glendora* 
A little boy who wants Dora panties or sparkly nailpolish at 3 isn't likely to grow up to be an chap-wearing Sweet Transvestite from TranSEXUAL Trannnnsylvania.

(And, if he did, more power to him.)

Yes on both points


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sojourn* 
Ruthla, I take everything you say in like a sponge (b/c I like your advice) but I'm not pulling them out of school for tears.

I wasn't suggesting you should. I pulled DD out of school for a whole host of reasons, not just because of the crying. I was just trying to make the point that "getting teased for crying" isnt necessarily a gender-based thing.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

Well, I can't bear to use the word panties in any context. Gosh, I hate that word.

People think ds is a girl all the time. They call him pretty. They get all flustered if they realize he is a boy (I don't bother to correct them unless the conversation goes further). Then they say, "oh, I'm sorry, I meant he is _*handsome*_."

I really can't bring myself to care if the word pretty is used while describing a boy. And I can't imagine explaining the pretty/handsome rule to my child.


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## sojourn (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Synthea™* 
My 10 year ols is incredibly senstive to remarks from people, he's the outcast 99% of the time







He comes home crying a lot, even when playing with friends. I just hug him, tell him I hope he's feeling better soon and ask if there's anything I can do. Most of the time, it's all he needs. He's homeschooled for this and many other reasons though (it was much worse when he was in school).

THANK YOU. This did NOT fall on deaf ears.


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## hottmama (Dec 27, 2004)

I don't believe gender roles are AT ALL natural. I have two children, and I have no problem with any clothes they choose (now or at 16), toys they play with (as long as they aren't plastic







), or how they hold their bodies.


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## glendora (Jan 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hoopin' Mama* 
I really can't bring myself to care if the word pretty is used while describing a boy. And I can't imagine explaining the pretty/handsome rule to my child.

Is calling boys pretty part of "gender dilution?"


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
My daughter has a pair of "boy" briefs. I wouldn't be surprised if my boy ends up with panties.

I know lots of older boys and men who wear make up. Both my kids play with make up and nail polish.

I don't agree with "sitting like a lady."

My girls wears pink and blue and every colour. So does my boy. So does every male and female adult I know.

Oh yeah and my boy has long hair.

I have no problem with gender differences. Having a son and a daughter, however, have shown me that there are very few, legitimate differences. In fact, my daughter is more stereotypically like a boy and my son is more stereotypically like a girl.

None of what you listed is specifically girl or boy. I will not limit my children in any way.


I agree with every single word you wrote here -- the same applies to my kids.

My son is nursing in my arms right now in his pink pjs. I picked them because I liked them, and he loves them.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *glendora* 
Is calling boys pretty part of "gender dilution?"










I'm not really certain what gender dilution is. It just seems like the general rule that is out there is that pretty is not a word that should be used for boys. Hence the insult of "pretty boy".
It seems to be the most common gender correction I run into.


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## finn'smama (Jan 11, 2006)

Telling someone they can't do something or wear something based on their gender is sexist, plain and simple. I can't imagine not letting my son paint his nails because he's a boy! Just as I would never make a daughter wear a bra or make-up. I just don't understand that at all.
A


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja*
Or that make-up is for older girls and women, not little boys.

You don't see anything wrong with sending a child the message that females should "fix" or enhance their faces but males are fine the way they are?

Quote:

I wholly embrace my femininity and the softer side of being a woman, even though I'm tough as nails when I have to be. But every woman is when the need arises, even the softest, sweetest, meekest woman.
Men are just as soft, sweet and meek as women.

Quote:

What's wrong with genders being different from each other?
The problem is that the differences are created by culture. Males and females are not actually different from each other, except as pertains to reproductive function.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

I don't want to get my kids started defining what they can do in this world by the nature of what's growing between their legs. There are enough people in this world that are going to tell my daughter that she can't be a firefighter and my sons that they can't be stay at home parents or ballet dancers - I'm not going to be one of them, and I'm not going to set them up to believe it by telling them that some things are for girls and some are for boys. If my 7 year old DS wanted to wear a dress to school, I'd be fine with it (although I would probably have to have the ridiculous "some people are mean and will make fun of you" talk).

OP, I don't want to join in on the "you hurt children" stuff that is upsetting you (even in your big girl panties







Dora or SpongeBob, btw?







) - but consider for a moment that your son wants to paint his nails and you tell him "No, boys can't paint their nails. Nail polish is for girls." Or if he wants to buy a pair of pink shoes and you say "Pink shoes are for girls. Boys wear blue shoes." Or he wants a My Little Pony or a Barbie, and you tell him "No, those are girl toys. Boys play with trucks and balls." He might be fine with that. Maybe nail polish and pink shoes aren't a big deal to him, and it was just a passing fancy. He likes the blue shoes just as much. He's just as happy as with trimming his nails as he would have been with painting them. When you mention a truck, he realizes that he really does like trucks and that a new one would be more fun than a Barbie. Great - he goes about his life and you haven't damaged him. Then what happens when he enounters a little boy who loves his sparkly nail polish or bink shoes and plays whose favorite toy his brand new Barbie? What do you think he might say to that boy? How do you think he might feel about him?


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## Mama Dragon (Dec 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sustainer* 
You don't see anything wrong with sending a child the message that females should "fix" or enhance their faces but males are fine the way they are?

Men are just as soft, sweet and meek as women.

The problem is that the differences are created by culture. Males and females are not actually different from each other, except as pertains to reproductive function.

Serious question here - did cavemen have a "culture"? As far as science is finding out, women literally tended the cave and children and tried to make themselves more attractive to mates, and men were hunters and tried to make themselves stronger and more protective. I've got a headache, sorry if that makes no sense. It's always been my impression that gender roles to some extent are just part of who we are. Women traditionally are gentle and nurturing and men are tough and protective (don't throw tomatoes at me here, I'm going off impressions I've gotten from most the scientific communities).


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

My son stopped doing most of those things because he got from our culture that it wasn't okay for him. That makes me sad. He recently cut his hair because he was tired of people assuming he was a girl - which sucked, because he really liked his longish hair. Seriously, I wouldn't judge any of my kids for doing things outside narrowly defined gender roles - but other people do. That's not going to make me say x is for girls and y is for boys.


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## finn'smama (Jan 11, 2006)

If my son wants to wear dresses or fairy wings or just jeans and a t-shirt when he is 10 or 25 or 60 years old, I will support him in that. Society may not, but I sure will.


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## aaronsmom (Jan 22, 2007)

[
I can tell you in all honesty that I would still support DD or DS 100% if they chose any of those things. If DS ends up being a "girly boy" and wants to wear fairy wings when he is 10 or dress in girl clothes as a teen I can tell you that I'd be damn proud that my son has the self confidence to go against the grain. I was that teenager. I was boyish. I wore boys clothes and hung with the guys and did "guy" things.
And what I'm not understanding, is that here at MDC, a community of people who go against the grain of mainstream society, a haven against those that would look down on us for not conforming, some members would actually force or encourage their children to conform to societal norms of gender roles.


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## hottmama (Dec 27, 2004)

Well, my kid isn't 9, but he's not a toddler, either. He's a 5 yr. old whose friends are generally 6-8. I would be absolutely shocked if, in the next 3 years, he stops playing with his dolls, runs screaming from skirts and nail polish, and disowns all of his friends (90% of whom are girls). He knows about gender roles. He thinks they suck. Peer pressure from the boys who won't play house with girls doesn't faze him. And I'll still think he's pretty when he's 8, 9, 10, 18, 19, 20.


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## sojourn (Oct 8, 2006)

I appreciate the sentiments. This isn't my thread, and I thank the OP for letting me take it out there for my own usage.










I hope you feel the same if and when your kids are older. We need more parents like you. I've already sold out in more than one way.







(public school and gendered roles).

I DO have to consciously remind myself that they are "handsome" and not "pretty"....though, they are "pretty" to me, everyday, always and forever.


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## orangebird (Jun 30, 2002)

Only one of my children is a toddler.

Yes, it would break my heart if my child was picked on and was hurt over it. It would.

But that would have nothing to do with it. I wouldn't tell them they can or can't do this or that because of their gender. We would work it out as best as we could. I would support my children to do what they felt most comfortable and happy with.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aaronsmom* 
I can tell you in all honesty that I would still support DD or DS 100% if they chose any of those things. If DS ends up being a "girly boy" and wants to wear fairy wings when he is 10 or dress in girl clothes as a teen I can tell you that I'd be damn proud that my son has the self confidence to go against the grain. I was that teenager. I was boyish. I wore boys clothes and hung with the guys and did "guy" things.
And what I'm not understanding, is that here at MDC, a community of people who go against the grain of mainstream society, a haven against those that would look down on us for not conforming, some members would actually force or encourage their children to conform to societal norms of gender roles.


As some people said (not me, I am actually forming opinions on this, as my son is only 2), they would encourage children to conform b/c they love them so much that they don't want them to get hurt. Surely you can understand that line of thinking, correct?


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## aaronsmom (Jan 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 
As some people said (not me, I am actually forming opinions on this, as my son is only 2), they would encourage children to conform b/c they love them so much that they don't want them to get hurt. Surely you can understand that line of thinking, correct?

No, I don't. While their intent may be good they would be hurting their children more in the long run. By suppressing who your child is you make them feel like there is something wrong with feeling the way they feel or doing what they do. Lots of gay men fall into a more "feminine" gender role and it makes a lot of people in today's society uncomfortable. If my son turned out to be a feminine gay should I tell him that he should hide it just so he doesn't get made fun of? How will we ever change the stigma attached to these things if we encourage our children to hide everything that will offend others? We should never change ourselves because of the insecurities of others.
My sister made fun of me for breastfeeding in public (yes, she really did) but I won't stop doing it just so she won't make fun of me. Her making fun of me makes her the ignorant one.
Some people make fun of me for CD'ing and my husband makes fun of me for eating organic and being a vegetarian but I won't stop doing it because of that. And a lot of people do tell me that vegetarianism is "unnatural" just like a lot of people would say a man wearing a dress goes against his "natural" gender role.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aaronsmom* 
No, I don't. While their intent may be good they would be hurting their children more in the long run. By suppressing who your child is you make them feel like there is something wrong with feeling the way they feel or doing what they do. Lots of gay men fall into a more "feminine" gender role and it makes a lot of people in today's society uncomfortable. If my son turned out to be a feminine gay should I tell him that he should hide it just so he doesn't get made fun of? How will we ever change the stigma attached to these things if we encourage our children to hide everything that will offend others? We should never change ourselves because of the insecurities of others.
My sister made fun of me for breastfeeding in public (yes, she really did) but I won't stop doing it just so she won't make fun of me. Her making fun of me makes her the ignorant one.
Some people make fun of me for CD'ing and my husband makes fun of me for eating organic and being a vegetarian but I won't stop doing it because of that. And a lot of people do tell me that vegetarianism is "unnatural" just like a lot of people would say a man wearing a dress goes against his "natural" gender role.


Okay. I just wish the rest of the world was as tolerant as MDC members, but it isn't.


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## aaronsmom (Jan 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 
Okay. I just wish the rest of the world was as tolerant as MDC members, but it isn't.

Which is why we should change that....one child at a time.


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

I have a 6 year old boy who needs to go to bed. Subbing to read later!


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## wombatclay (Sep 4, 2005)

Quote:

Of course we don't care when they are toddlers. If they are still wearing fairy wings and whatnot as 9-10 yo's...well, I haven't heard too much from any of those moms.
It may be the region I live in (pretty far over on the so called "hippy dippy" scale) but I know several boys (not toddlers) with long hair, tunics that are not that far from skirts, and nail polish. And several girls who have buzz cut hair and dirt on their hands. I've actually learned not to comment on "your little girl/your little boy" with mamas I don't know simply because the line here is very very blurry. Even in school aged kiddos. And I attended college with many many people (gay straight bi questioning etc) who didn't fit into a neat and tidy "gender category". Right down to the fairy wings in some cases.









I think it just kind of depends on where you live and how strongly you feel the need to support a child's individuality vs how far you're willing to bend to protect your child (and by extension yourself) from gender discrimination. (and I mean that in a good way... I certainly sympathize with and understand parents who feel the need to change who their child is in order to protect them).

And on a related note, does anyone find it interesting that so many of the comments in this thread refer to gendered behavior in male children rather than female? As if "gender male" comes about through things you _don't_ do (don't cry, don't decorate the body, don't play with dolls) while "gender female" comes about through things you _do_ do (do decorate the body, do sit with legs together, etc).


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## Mamatolea (Jan 17, 2007)

I refuse to box my children in. They can be, do, dress as, become anything they want.

I lived in a boxed world as a JW for a very long time, being told that men are the leaders that God chose and women were inferior and meant to be child bearers and cooks and maids only-ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS!!

I will NEVER place limits on my children. If my daughter wants to wear Bob the builder underwear and carry around tools, then great. If my son(should it be a son) wants to play dress up and have a dolly, then he most certainly will.

How are you to define your child? You can teach your children what you think is ok, but eventually they will become what they are going to become and will possibly hate you for your single mindedness. I wouldn't want that for me, so I will allow my children to become the people they want to become, never something based on gender alone....


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## happyhippiemama (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *orangebird* 

Yes, it would break my heart if my child was picked on and was hurt over it. It would.

ITA. And I would much rather help them understand why it was happening and work together to find some ways to _change_ that in our community, rather than stifling my child's personality and expression just to conform to society's f*cked up system.


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## bjorker (Jul 25, 2005)

Because it's not "embracing a difference", it's "perpetuating a stereotype" which I think can be incredibly constrictive to growing into and appreciating your natural self.

I have no idea how this thread is going - I haven't read any of the other replies at all. But this is something that I feel very strongly about. I think these things inhibit us in a big, big way. I feel that it's far more important to start with a blank slate and encourage children to find what they like, and be able to pursue and enjoy that. Telling them what to wear and what they should like, even indirectly (television commercials always featuring _girls_ playing with barbie dolls, for example) translates into shame, and feeling unaccepted and "wrong" for those that don't fit the stereotype. People will also often make nasty assumptions about the kid (or adult!) that doesn't fit that mold. However, more often than not, I think those feelings just get trampled, as girls learn that it's more important to paint nails than play with trucks (for example), and then that child grows up with a false sense of self. I think that makes for a lot of angry, sad, confused adults. Doing what they think they're supposed to do, and liking what they think they're supposed to like, because of those societal expectations and messages. And not even realising it. I don't think it's that much different than the growth of eating disorders and poor body image in the face of mass media.

Expectations based on gender can be incredibly hurtful and confusing.


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## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

You heard from me. My precious and darling (?) DS will be 9 in 13 days. He got called "pretty" last year when his hair was long--all the time. It didn;t bother him. He cut it only because it got in the way with football.

Kids with muscles? What?? What does that even mean? DS has muscles. Doesn't mean he's not growing his hair real long or wearing Strawberry HS Musical lipgloss...or that he didn't get a manicure with me and my boyfriend on Valentines Day.

It also doesn't mean that he hasn't cried in public over something that bothered him, or that he isn't emotionally "sensitive" sometimes. Or that one of his favorite shirts to wear is a ladies shirt.

No, he doesn't wear fairy wings (not sure he ever did), but he does do some "girlie" things. And I can say in 100% honesty that if he wanted fairy wings, I'd get them for him and "let" him wear them in public.

I guess I'm the best most wow parent? Sweet! Yay me!


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## bjorker (Jul 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
I want boys and girls to have equal opportunities in education, athletics and everything else. But I don't think that either gender has to dilute itself to make those oppertunities happen. What's wrong with genders being different from each other?

And, IMO, there's a conflict between thinking something like this, and telling only a girl that she should sit with her legs closed. Why should it be any different for a girl than a boy? And who says so? No, really, where does that come from, and why SHOULD it be a rule for girls and not boys? To me, that's just telling the girl right there that she is not equal to a male. If a sister and brother were sitting next to eachother, both sitting with their legs equally open, and equally comfortable with this leg arrangement-- and a mom tells _only_ the girl that she must change and sit with her legs closed... what does that say to her? Your brother can be more comfortable than you can. You have different rules and expectations than your brother. Your brother can get away with more things than you can, etc.

Nobody tells me how to sit. I prefer to be comfortable. I would prefer everyone to be comfortable. Especially children, they get told what to do all the time as it is. I can understand some sense of formality in certain situations, but I would make no exception for any gender. That sends a strong message.


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## Phantaja (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sojourn* 
I appreciate the sentiments. This isn't my thread, and I thank the OP for letting me take it out there for my own usage.










Rock on, sister. You're welcome to it.


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## Einley (Jul 12, 2003)

I'm going to have a hard time articulating my opinion on this. I may not have all of the terminology technically correct, but here goes.

I think there is a difference between females and males and that this difference should be rejoiced. I am thrilled to be a woman.

That said, there should be, imo, no certain expectations put on people because they are a female or a male. Girls do not have to wear pink, nail polish, fairy wings and cry openly. Boys do not have to wear blue, no nail polish, football helmets and not cry ever.
Since this conversation has focused on sons, I will reference mine. He is 6 and a half to be exact. If he wanted to wear nail polish, fine. If he wants to wear fairy wings, fine.
To this day, I am made fun of for my looks, for my beliefs, for my general outlook on life. I do not fit in to the mainstream and I never have. So I know the pain and struggle of not fitting in and being made fun of. Do I wish this for my kids? Not necessarily. But it is more important to me that they live the life they want to live and be who they want to be. Imo, we have one life here on this earth and I would hate to believe that we have to expend all of our energy and time and possibly be miserable just to live like everybody else.
Yes, not being like everyone does bring a certain amount of discontent, but deep deep down I know I am being true to me (and teaching my kids to be true to themselves) and everyone else is wrong lol








What did Shakespeare say? To thine ownself be true... I like that.


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## Mamatolea (Jan 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Einley* 
I'm going to have a hard time articulating my opinion on this. I may not have all of the terminology technically correct, but here goes.

I think there is a difference between females and males and that this difference should be rejoiced. I am thrilled to be a woman.

That said, there should be, imo, no certain expectations put on people because they are a female or a male. Girls do not have to wear pink, nail polish, fairy wings and cry openly. Boys do not have to wear blue, no nail polish, football helmets and not cry ever.
Since this conversation has focused on sons, I will reference mine. He is 6 and a half to be exact. If he wanted to wear nail polish, fine. If he wants to wear fairy wings, fine.
To this day, I am made fun of for my looks, for my beliefs, for my general outlook on life. I do not fit in to the mainstream and I never have. So I know the pain and struggle of not fitting in and being made fun of. Do I wish this for my kids? Not necessarily. But it is more important to me that they live the life they want to live and be who they want to be. Imo, we have one life here on this earth and I would hate to believe that we have to expend all of our energy and time and possibly be miserable just to live like everybody else.
Yes, not being like everyone does bring a certain amount of discontent, but deep deep down I know I am being true to me (and teaching my kids to be true to themselves) and everyone else is wrong lol








What did Shakespeare say? To thine ownself be true... I like that.









:


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## lava mama (Jan 2, 2007)

Thank you Einley! Your beautiful words touched me to my core!

Sojourn~ I only have a toddler, but I know from personal experience how hard it is to be both "sensitive" (I carry the weight of the world on my shoulders too!) and just plain weird, LOL. I was lucky in that I grew up with 2 friends (both males!) who were sensitive as well. They cried or otherwise showed their emotion in an "unmanly" way. However, they were both kick butt soccer players and just awesome souls that everyone wanted to be around. They were never picked last on any team, even in middle school. I'm so happy to have found those "soul mates" so early on in my life, and I hope your son finds his too.









Anyway, I know that didn't really pertain to the topic at hand, but I'm totally digging this discussion! I'm taking a "Psychology of Women" class right now and it's so neat to explore the topic here at MDC.


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trinity6232000* 
I just personally believe that when we start saying certain things are for boys or for girls then that just leads to our children accepting other restrictions in the future.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
But there _are_ other restrictions in the future that they _will_ have to accept.

Yeah, I don't see it that way. The rules in my house are pretty simple. Be kind, think of others, and if you want me to hear you don't yell. I want my dd to know that she can think for herself.

If she encounters a restriction in her future, and she thinks it's wrong, I hope she fights it. If she finds a restriction in life, and chooses not to follow along, I want her to know there are could be negative consequences to her actions. But that choice to follow or not, that's her choice.

Being laughed at hurts, we all know this. We know this because at one point or another in our life somebody has tried to belittle us or treat us like we are less than they are.

I don't want my dd (7yo) to alter her thinking, or actions in fear of what others will think of her.

My home should be her safe place. Where she can express herself in all the ways she feels in her heart. She's not stupid, she knows that people can be cruel to those who they see as "different". She has already experienced being the odd one. She's been laughed at. Did it hurt her, yes. Did I hurt seeing her hurt, oh yeah. So I'm sure at only 7 years old she is already altering how she is in school in order to fit in. That's why I want our house to be safe. Where she can be herself.

I don't want being laughed at to be the moral compass in my dd's life. Does it hurt, yes. BUT is it the standard of what is right and wrong, no. Doing what is right in our hearts doesn't always feel good or comfortable. Most people who have made big changes in the world are laughed at. People who step outside of the box aren't usually popular.


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## RockStarMom (Sep 11, 2005)

I think that gender differences should be acknowledged and celebrated, but at the same time they shouldn't be absolutes.
My daughter's favorite color is blue and she will only wear "boy" underwear. And her father wears makeup; I don't.
It sounds like stereotypes have been very ingrained in you; have you thought deeply about why you hold the feelings about these types of things that you do? Do you feel that you are doing your children a favor or a disservice by forcing these stereotypes on them?


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## Ziggysmama (Dec 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 

OP, I don't want to join in on the "you hurt children" stuff that is upsetting you (even in your big girl panties







Dora or SpongeBob, btw?







) - but consider for a moment that your son wants to paint his nails and you tell him "No, boys can't paint their nails. Nail polish is for girls." Or if he wants to buy a pair of pink shoes and you say "Pink shoes are for girls. Boys wear blue shoes." Or he wants a My Little Pony or a Barbie, and you tell him "No, those are girl toys. Boys play with trucks and balls." He might be fine with that. Maybe nail polish and pink shoes aren't a big deal to him, and it was just a passing fancy. He likes the blue shoes just as much. He's just as happy as with trimming his nails as he would have been with painting them. When you mention a truck, he realizes that he really does like trucks and that a new one would be more fun than a Barbie. Great - he goes about his life and you haven't damaged him. Then what happens when he enounters a little boy who loves his sparkly nail polish or bink shoes and plays whose favorite toy his brand new Barbie? What do you think he might say to that boy? How do you think he might feel about him?

Yeah that!
gender stereotyping won't only effect your child but other peoples children they come in contact with. "That girl must not be a "lady" cos her legs aren't crossed."

I'm really, really against gender stereotyping of any kind and the OP kind of offended me because I don't do any of the things she listed as being "girly" yet I am still a woman.
My son will grow up with the choice of how to behave, dress, decorate himself, sit, speak, and express himself. His choice and I will support him.

As a child I was ALWAYS teased. I was a tomboy for many years and called myself a "feminist" by the age of 7 and I was teased. I slowly became more "girly" and conforming and still I was teased. You can't win.
Hmmm, that didn't really make much sense sorry... I'm worn out and need to go to bed...


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## avalonfaith (Dec 29, 2005)

Quote:

I think that gender differences should be acknowledged and celebrated, but at the same time they shouldn't be absolutes.
amen sister!

subbing this thread.


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## MilkTrance (Jul 21, 2007)

I want my son to grow up doing "gentlemanly" things for ladies -- opening doors, offering seats, just generally being respectful. However, if he wanted to do that wearing nail polish and a skirt, I guess that's what he wants to do. I think society "polices" us enough about gender differences -- I don't need to be too rigid with my son.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Can I ask a really stupid question that I just need to ask because I'm trying to think it through and am not seeing the answer...

what happens when said kiddo is all grown up... say 35... and wants to prance to work wearing fairy wings. It's like... you can be gay.... you can be bi.... you can be transgendered, but try to be a straight guy in America wearing pink nail polish and prancing around in a Holly Hobbie apron and a giant hair bow? What would YOU do if YOUR dh walked in the front door with fairy wings on and blue eye shadow? At some point, most straight men conform. Maybe not as 8 year-olds and certainly not as 3 year-olds, but not a lot of 16 year-old guys in high school looking to pick up babes wearing a push-up bra and a pair of Manolos. And good luck Freshman year in college doing that.

So my question is.... blah see I don't know what my question is. Just... I don't know, gasp, are we making a mistake on this one?


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## Ziggysmama (Dec 26, 2007)

Quote:

what happens when said kiddo is all grown up... say 35... and wants to prance to work wearing fairy wings
He'd probably have his own show or youtube channel and have no problem









Quote:

What would YOU do if YOUR dh walked in the front door with fairy wings on and blue eye shadow?
My DP has walked through the door wearing stranger


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

I support my kids being who they are! Pink clothes, boy underwear, make-up or no... whatever. Those things aren't important in and of themselves. What matters is my child knowing that it's *okay to be who they are* regardless of what mainstream society thinks they should wear or look like.

My 16 year old Ds has long hair and a fuller beard than many men twice his age. He's applied for a few jobs that want him to cut the hair to collar length while the women who work there are afforded the freedom to tie their hair back or braid it. Unbelievably sexist and incredibly frustrating. He knows that society often thinks he should look a certain so called "acceptable" way, and at this point in his life he's not willing to conform. Later on he may decide that he is in certain areas, but maybe not in others.









Point is, boys in dresses and make up, and girls who aren't can learn that society is what it is (and what it is is pretty effed up IMO), and they will have their own decisions to make as they face that. I think it's far better for them to learn to face that with supportive parents in their corner instead of parents who are part of the chorus of voices crying _"conform to this or else"_.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MilkTrance* 
I want my son to grow up doing "gentlemanly" things for ladies -- opening doors, offering seats, just generally being respectful.

 See I just see those as "kind or polite things" rather than gentlemanly. I open doors, have offered my seat, and even pulled out a chair or two for men and women. Gender was never a factor, kindness was.

Quote:

I think society "polices" us enough about gender differences -- I don't need to be too rigid with my son.
So true!


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## *clementine* (Oct 15, 2004)

I haven't read all of the responses yet, but wanted to add that some of the hottest guys I've ever dated wore skirts/nail polish. They were very masculine men with a touch of punk rock that I found irresitable.
That said, my son's may wear whatever they want- and I hope they find a girl who loves their chipped nail polish when they are older.


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## woobysma (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle* 
Can I ask a really stupid question that I just need to ask because I'm trying to think it through and am not seeing the answer...

what happens when said kiddo is all grown up... say 35... and wants to prance to work wearing fairy wings. It's like... you can be gay.... you can be bi.... you can be transgendered, but try to be a straight guy in America wearing pink nail polish and prancing around in a Holly Hobbie apron and a giant hair bow? What would YOU do if YOUR dh walked in the front door with fairy wings on and blue eye shadow? At some point, most straight men conform. Maybe not as 8 year-olds and certainly not as 3 year-olds, but not a lot of 16 year-old guys in high school looking to pick up babes wearing a push-up bra and a pair of Manolos. And good luck Freshman year in college doing that.

So my question is.... blah see I don't know what my question is. Just... I don't know, gasp, are we making a mistake on this one?











I don't know what your question was either









Personally, I don't know many 35 yo men who enjoy dressing up in fairy wigs, regardless of what their preferences were as 3yo's. I think that line of thinking is a little off-kilter.

When I was 3, I liked being NAKED... NAKED NAKED NAKED.... ALL THE TIME! At 29.... um, not so much. Right now I like to wear clothes, especially in public. Maybe I've "conformed", maybe I just don't like the way people stare at me when I'm naked in my front yard. At 3, I didn't care. I rode my tricycle around naked and free. I also tied toilet paper in my hair and pretended I was Repunzel. My mom never said "ladies don't run around naked with TP in their hair".... but somewhere along the way, I figured it out all on my own.

My 3yo loves pink and purple and sparkly things... he also wears rubber rain boots with EVERYTHING. DS1 spent the better part of his 2yo life wearing a green, fuzzy monster costume and snow boots...... he's 10 now and informed me the other day that he only likes wearing jeans and dark t-shirts.







Kids grow up and (usually) their tastes change.

I don't feel the need to limit them, especially when they're small and just trying out new things.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Yeah, and a man who liked to dress in such a way would likely be partnered (or whatever) with someone who was down with that. So I am not sure it would be an issue.

Now, if a man suddenly started wearing fairy wings and blue sparkly eye shadow out of the blue... yeah, that might be pretty strange for a partner. It'd be something to discuss that's for sure.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle* 
Can I ask a really stupid question that I just need to ask because I'm trying to think it through and am not seeing the answer...

what happens when said kiddo is all grown up... say 35... and wants to prance to work wearing fairy wings. It's like... you can be gay.... you can be bi.... you can be transgendered, but try to be a straight guy in America wearing pink nail polish and prancing around in a Holly Hobbie apron and a giant hair bow? What would YOU do if YOUR dh walked in the front door with fairy wings on and blue eye shadow? At some point, most straight men conform. Maybe not as 8 year-olds and certainly not as 3 year-olds, but not a lot of 16 year-old guys in high school looking to pick up babes wearing a push-up bra and a pair of Manolos. And good luck Freshman year in college doing that.

So my question is.... blah see I don't know what my question is. Just... I don't know, gasp, are we making a mistake on this one?

How many 35 year old women prancing around in fairy wings do you know?

I know lots of grown, straight men who wear make up and nail polish.

and good luck in college doing that? University was a lot more accepting place than high school, and it was a place where my gay friends finally felt they could be themselves.

Anyways, this is all a strawman argument.

Sure, most people will conform to their gender stereotypes. That is all the more reason to allow children to have the freedom to explore and do what they want. Limiting children to their gender stereotypes will not prevent things like cross dressing. It will only make the person hide it and feel shame.

There are lots of things children do that they won't do forever, so I don't understand your argument. In fact, I hear the same argument about children nursing. It doesn't make any sense.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

I don't see a lot of adult women wearing fairy wings, Holly Hobbie aprons and giant hair bows out in public.
I feel that most adults- male or female- would reserve that style of dressing for an appropriate venue/occasion. Most grown women do not slip on a tiara, evening gown, full makeup and heels to go to the grocery store or mow the lawn even if they played with princess/Barbie toys growing up.

Given a choice, a lot of women do not wear dresses every day. Given the same choice, men probably would also not wear dresses every day.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Also, to add a "child's" perspective.

I went through a big "finding myself" phase when I was in high school. I believe I was reacting against the conformist culture in which I was raised (by this point we had moved, though) and the subtle gender roles perpetuated by my mom. I stopped shaving my legs and under my arms. I didn't wear lipgloss or eyeshadow like my sister did. I dressed in completely gender neutral clothes--ripped jeans, combat boots, flannel shirts, leather jacket, all stuff purchased from the thrift store. (I think part of all this was coming to terms with my bisexuality, and feeling like, if I wasn't heterosexual, I needed to 'signal' that through the way I looked--in other words, it was just performing gender in a different way.).

Anyway, my point is: I was completely confident about the way I looked out in public. I know I didn't present as a "typical" girl, but I never really cared if it made anyone stare. What DID hurt me, deeply and in many ways irrevocably were the constant, "well-meaning" attempts by my mom to make me into someone who conformed more closely to her (and, I would say, society's) expectations of gender. There was never any cruelty or belittling...it was just the million little and not-so-little ways that she let me know that the way I was was NOT okay with her.

If you think you are protecting your child from hurt by encouraging them to conform to gender norms when those norms clearly do not represent who your child is...let me assure you, you're not. The criticism, implicit or explicit, we get from those who are supposed to love us unconditionally is far more hurtful than any stares from strangers or unkind words from the school bully. And, on the contrary, the support of his or her family can make all the difference in helping someone who is "different" feel good about him or herself. Just my two cents.


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sojourn* 
Are you still gonna stand strong? You still think you won't care much or see a gendered difference? You STILL think that at that time you won't see kids w/muscles and laughs at your kids? I'm just asking.


Damn straight will I stand up for my son and be proud that he doesn't want to be a sheep. I will never, never, never encourage my children to conform to gender stereotypes, and if I somehow start doing this, I hope you'll take me out and shoot me because I've obviously lost my mind. That is not who I am nor who I ever want to be.


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## Einley (Jul 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jessy1019* 
Damn straight will I stand up for my son and be proud that he doesn't want to be a sheep. I will never, never, never encourage my children to conform to gender stereotypes, and if I somehow start doing this, I hope you'll take me out and shoot me because I've obviously lost my mind. That is not who I am nor who I ever want to be.


















I need a "hell yeah!" emoticon!!


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

I was a tomboy growing up. My goal in life was to be the first female quarterback in the NFL. I wore ball caps all the time. I cut all my hair off when I was 2 because I wanted short hair but my mom wanted me to "look like a girl." I dealt with ENDLESS rounds of "You need to learn the difference between boys and girls!" (and, later, "men and women!") yelling from my mother. She told me I deserved how I was treated if I wasn't going to act like a girl.

My children--and the Small Friends in my life--will NEVER hear that from me. I will NEVER support the idea that a boy wearing fairy wings at whatever age is a bad thing. I will NEVER support the idea that a girl who wants to play football should not be supported and loved and encouraged.

I hate threads like these because they ALWAYS serve as a place for posts like the one I quoted, and make me want to pack up my boxers and hiking boots and flee for some place where homophobic crap like this simply isn't tolerated.


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Friendly reminder:

*o not post in a disrespectful, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, demeaning criticism, name-calling, personal attack, or in any way which violates the law.*


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jessy1019* 
Damn straight will I stand up for my son and be proud that he doesn't want to be a sheep. I will never, never, never encourage my children to conform to gender stereotypes, and if I somehow start doing this, I hope you'll take me out and shoot me because I've obviously lost my mind. That is not who I am nor who I ever want to be.









:!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 
As some people said (not me, I am actually forming opinions on this, as my son is only 2), they would encourage children to conform b/c they love them so much that they don't want them to get hurt. Surely you can understand that line of thinking, correct?

I've spoken to DS about this, and let him make his own choices. I won't tell him "no, you can't wear pink shoes because pink shoes are for girls" but I have told him "Are you really sure you want pink sneakers? Oh, look at these blue ones!"

I see that as empowering him to make educated choices. At age 4 he honestly had no idea that other kids would have gender roles attached to clothing, but if he was teased at school one day he'd never want to wear those shoes to school again (and I certainly wouldn't force him), and I'd have to spend more money on another pair of sneakers for him. I don't have a problem with him wearing pink barrettes or bracelettes or anything like that- but I don't want to waste money on expensive items (shoes) that may not get enough use.

I don't know anybody, male or female, who prances around in fairy wings on a regular basis (costume parties/Halloween/Purim not included.) It's just not something that adults do. And good luck finding Dora panties in big kid or adult sizes- but in any case, who's really going to see what kind of underwear my kids choose to wear UNDER their clothing?

I don't understand why the "boys don't cry" thing keeps getting brought up. I honestly don't see that attitude as being any more prevelant than "big girls dont' cry"- it's not "darling" when any of my kids cry, especially in public! Of course I'll embrace any crying child (if the child wants comfort rather than solitude) but I really don't see this as a gender thing at all. Crying and showing sensitivity isn't respected in this culture, from either sex.


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## darien (Nov 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CookieMonsterMommy* 
BOLDING MINE
You heard from me. My precious and darling (?) DS will be 9 in 13 days. He got called "pretty" last year when his hair was long--all the time. It didn;t bother him. He cut it only because it got in the way with football.

Kids with muscles? What?? What does that even mean? DS has muscles. Doesn't mean he's not growing his hair real long or wearing Strawberry HS Musical lipgloss...or that he didn't get a manicure with me and my boyfriend on Valentines Day.

It also doesn't mean that he hasn't cried in public over something that bothered him, or that he isn't emotionally "sensitive" sometimes. Or that one of his favorite shirts to wear is a ladies shirt.

No, he doesn't wear fairy wings (not sure he ever did), but he does do some "girlie" things. And I can say in 100% honesty that if he wanted fairy wings, I'd get them for him and "let" him wear them in public.

I guess I'm the best most wow parent? Sweet! Yay me!

















My 11 year old ds was mistaken for a girl twice this week. He didn't care, and neither did I.

He's a person-- not a cardboard cut out of "pre-teen human, male." He wears what he wants, chooses activities that he wants... why not?


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## whateverdidiwants (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aaronsmom* 
Which is why we should change that....one child at a time.










Quote:


Originally Posted by *happyhippiemama* 
And I would much rather help them understand why it was happening and work together to find some ways to _change_ that in our community, rather than stifling my child's personality and expression just to conform to society's f*cked up system.


Thank you!


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyzombiecat* 
I don't see a lot of adult women wearing fairy wings, Holly Hobbie aprons and giant hair bows out in public.

That is such a totally good point!








Okay that was the kind of thing I was trying to think of and not getting myself... the whole "this is all great when they're little, but what happens when they grow up". I guess the answer is, um, they grow up.


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

I have removed several posts from this thread and edited many more of the quote. Thank you fro your patience and fortitude in contributing to such an interesting and thought provoking thread.

Please carry on, but I need to move this to Parenting Issues.


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
I know that I'm going to be fried for this but...what's wrong with gender differences?

I don't see anything wrong with telling a little boy that panties are for girls, please put on your boxer shorts (or briefs or boxer briefs or Spongebob underoos). Or that make-up is for older girls and women, not little boys. Or with telling a girl to sit like a lady if her legs are spread. I'd tell my son that he can't wear a dress. When I was a little girl I wore earrings and lip gloss (well, Vaseline as a very little girl) on my lips every single day. My mother encouraged it, even reminded me if I forgot before I walked out the door.

I personally don't like pink, but I have no problem with "pink is for girls and blue is for boys." I wholly embrace my femininity and the softer side of being a woman, even though I'm tough as nails when I have to be. But every woman is when the need arises, even the softest, sweetest, meekest woman.

I see boys and girls as apples and oranges. Both sweet, both good for you, both equally delicious. But some prefer apples and some prefer oranges and that doesn't make either one less of a wonderful fruit. Each is just as good as the other, they're just different.

I want boys and girls to have equal opportunities in education, athletics and everything else. But I don't think that either gender has to dilute itself to make those oppertunities happen. What's wrong with genders being different from each other?

Well this is long so I just read the OP but I just wanted to say that:

Yes - boys and girls are different. There is no denying that. But that is just basic biology.

What you are talking about is outside appearance. That shouldnt matter. No matter what sex you are! If a girl wants to wear jeans and a boy wants to wear a skirt...why not?! What you look like on the outside just should not matter.

Caring for your body is different. Thats just trying to stay healthy. Taking a shower and brushing your teeth. But I do not wear lip gloss on my lips. I would also neve remind my children to do something in order to appear a certain way - thats asking for some serious issues I feel. (the standard - you arnt pretty unless you do this to your face)

And then we should also take culture into it I feel. I wouldnt tell a girl who was wearing a dress to close her legs because it was 'lady like'... I would do it because if we were out in public, for the same reasons we wear clothes out in public, we also dont have our knickers out on show for the public to see. If my son was wearing a skirt, the same would apply! lol

As it happens - my son loves to put on my makeup. But he thinks hes gorgeous no matter what he looks like on the outside because he is!


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

This is an interesting thread!

I was a tomboy growing up. I wore boy's shoes. I wore boy's clothes. I didn't want girly pink toys. I didn't care if other kids made fun of me. The only thing that bothered me was my mom trying to force me to be more girly. I felt like she didn't accept me unless I was more feminine. Even now, at 40, she'll tell me that I'd be prettier if I'd just wear a little makeup.

I don't want to impose arbitrary rules on my daughter, or on a son should I ever have one, just because society likes those arbitrary rules. My daughter can wear what she wants. She chose boy tennis shoes this time because she wanted the blue shoes. The folks at the shoe store weren't sure - was I sure I wanted her to have boy shoes? Who cares which shoes she likes best? But, on the other hand, she wanted to wear a dress today and I would never have worn a dress.

So I have no rules about this kind of thing. Kids should just be allowed to evolve naturally into who they are. My job as a parent is to facilitate my daughter's growth and allow her to become her most authentic self, whoever that is, and to offer unconditional love and support.

And I hate the word "panties" for either gender's underpants. We say "undies" here for everyone's skivvies. Or "skivvies".


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## Joyster (Oct 26, 2007)

We just kind of follow my son's lead on what he likes to do and play. He gravitates towards the Backyardigans, machines and dinosaurs. But I also don't shy away from buying him things that "little boys" wouldn't play with, like kitchen sets, or teddy bear hospitals. He even has his own "baby" which he cares for, but less so since his brother arrived (after all real babies are a lot more fun). He also helps me with the chores, loves to cook in the kitchen and gardening (traditionally women's work) and I encourage his participation. He was interested in my makeup for a minute, so put some lip balm on him, he thinks the blush brush is for tickling and the rest he couldn't give a fig about, but if he were interested, it wouldn't freak me out letting him explore.

We also try to make the effort to avoid macho type reinforcement and try very hard to reinforce his caring, helpful and sympathetic side, which is really important to have in men in our opinions. DH likes his hockey, and will even watch stupid things like wrestling or Trailer Park Boys, but he also helps massively around the house, has no problems showing or talking about his true emotions, and embraces feminism as well as any feminist ally. We are raising boys, but they're going to be boys who love and respect women and for that, we truly believe that they can't really be repulsed by anything ascribed to be "feminine" whether it be chores, emotion, etc.

I think being a kid is just so much about exploration and discovery, I'd hate to stifle it (short of the things he climbs to get a bump on the head daily) in any way.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

I don't agree with "sitting like a lady."
But if one is wearing a skirt or dress, it would make more sense to sit with the legs either crossed or together.


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## rayo de sol (Sep 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Phantaja* 
I don't see anything wrong with telling a little boy that panties are for girls, please put on your boxer shorts (or briefs or boxer briefs or Spongebob underoos). Or that make-up is for older girls and women, not little boys. Or with telling a girl to sit like a lady if her legs are spread.

The sexist notion that females shouldn't sit with their legs open is so appalling to me that it makes me feel physically nauseous to think of all the unfortunate girls out there with this ridiculous limitation placed on them.

How is it fair that males can sit with their legs spread as far apart as possible, showing off their whole genital region (especially if they're wearing snug pants) while females are expected to sit with their legs crossed or primly squeezed together at all times?? It seems to send the message that female genitals are objectionable or gross in some way and also that males get to take up more space than females. There's also a sexist message that it's girls' responsibility to shield the stereotypical uncontrollably sexual male from her sexuality; if she sits with her legs open, she's inviting rape.

I would never want to pass these hurtful, dysfunctional, and just plain wrong messages on to any child of either sex. Children should be able to sit and hold their bodies in any way that's comfortable and preferable for them.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rayo de sol* 
The sexist notion that females shouldn't sit with their legs open is so appalling to me that it makes me feel physically nauseous to think of all the unfortunate girls out there with this ridiculous limitation placed on them.

How is it fair that males can sit with their legs spread as far apart as possible, showing off their whole genital region (especially if they're wearing snug pants) while females are expected to sit with their legs crossed or primly squeezed together at all times?? It seems to send the message that female genitals are objectionable or gross in some way and also that males get to take up more space than females. There's also a sexist message that it's girls' responsibility to shield the stereotypical uncontrollably sexual male from her sexuality; if she sits with her legs open, she's inviting rape.

I would never want to pass these hurtful, dysfunctional, and just plain wrong messages on to any child of either sex. Children should be able to sit and hold their bodies in any way that's comfortable and preferable for them.

A big YEAH THAT! to this whole thing.

I'm not opposed to males and females having differences. I beleive some (but NOT ALL) of those differences are probably genetic, though ALL of them are culturally influenced (The whole pink thing makes me laugh, because it is 100% societally determined. It's not like they come out of the womb saying "oh, my vagina makes me love pink!')

But what I really hate are the number of the differences that people claim are "innate" and are definitions of feminitity that are really about telling girls that their bodies are wrong and dirty, that they are weak and incapable of taking care of themselves physically (even opening doors!), and that they are the guardians of everyone's virtue, boys included. Their faces are wrong and must be painted and fixed. Their bodies must be hidden and controlled, and not take up too much space in the world, either through leg spreading or by being too tall or worst of all, gaining too much weight. I want my daughter to take up all the space she needs to do what she needs to do and not fear its "Unladylike" to do so.

I further hate the ones that tell boys that showing any care for other human beings is wrong, that feelings are for girls, and that the only way to communicate as a boy is to hit and hurt and wound, and the only things they're allowed to like are trucks and sports. Geeze, where would the world be if Michaelangelo had been told that he had to only play with trucks and balls?

It's a long way from saying "girls tend to be better verbally than boys"


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## Boot (Jan 22, 2008)

I think my take on all this is a bit different from most people here but DS is only 11 months so I reserve the right to change my mind!

Firstly, I don't like nail varnish and make-up and earrings on any child, boy or girl. Secondly, I really would like to continue to have a lot of say in my child's wardrobe but not for any gender reason. I like natural fibres, plain clothes without logos or cartoon characters, organic cotton when I can afford it. I also am particular about children dressing warmly and comfortably. I would rather a young child was blissfully unaware of what they were wearing. There's plenty of time to be fashion conscious later. Basically, I suppose I'm saying that I would like my child to have gender neutral influences and environment (toys, room colour, clothes, etc) until they started expressing a strong preference either way. Then I would want them to express themselves but still within my guidelines. (I wouldn't want the house full of pink Barbie merchandise for a boy or girl).

By the way, to the OP, your post about a girl with a skirt sitting with her legs crossed made me smile. We're from Scotland and let me tell you, men in kilts still spread their legs a wide as they like. If you're lucky they remember to push the fabric down but otherwise you get to confirm that the rumour about Scotsmen really is true!


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
I beleive in embracing children for who they are naturally, not definining them by rigid gender roles. At the same time, I see nothing wrong with having a "girly girl" or a "boyish boy" if that's who they are naturally.

I also see nothing wrong with traditional gender roles being available for adults who choose to embrace them. I dress in very feminine ways and encourage my daughters to do the same. My oldest is required to wear dresses or skirts to school and my other daughter wears dresses or skirts almost constantly by choice. DS only wears pants when at school, out in public, etc. But if he wants to wear a dress for "playing dress up" that's fine with me!

I see a big difference between modeling traditional gender roles, and enforcing them on young children. If DD wants to dress up like Daddy or DS wants to dress up like Mommy, that's OK with me. If a young child of either gender wants to go to the supermarket in a Spiderman costume, or a sparkly pink fairy costume, or any other strange combination of clothes, that's OK with me.

By age 9 or so I expect kids to dress "appropriately" in public most of the time. If I had a child who felt drawn to cross-dressing, I'd figure out the best way to support that child- I'm not 100% sure what that would look like as that's not an issue I'm facing with any of my children.

I agree with this.

I have some neighbors with two dds. The girls are natural athletes. They both wanted to be on a softball team this year. (7 & 9) The nine year old had to join a team that was put together at the last minute, but the coach was awsome.

She was yanked off the team by her Moms because the ONLY color left for this new team's uniform was pink. They refused to allow any child of theirs to wear a pink uniform.

Sad.


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

I have thought about this quite a bit, mostly because my mom tried to _steer_ me toward girly things my whole life. Quite unsuccessfully I might add. She only succeeded in making me miserable and feel like I couldn't measure up. As a result I have become downright hostile when someone suggests a woman cannot do X.

DD has never been into dolls. Thanks to ILs, she has a few but for the most part they sit on the floor doing nothing. The dollhouse I bought for her is used to play "parking lot" with her cars. As soon as DD turned 1, she stopped wearing dresses so I have a few Hannas that have never been worn. Tomorrow, she has to have her picture taken for school and I have told her she has to wear the skirt because it is required for girls if she wants to be in the picture. Since she doesn't like skirts, she wears the boys pants as part of her uniform. (She can change immediately after the pic but the director will not allow her in the pic otherwise. I left it up to her as to whether or not she will be in the pic, she says OK to the skirt.)

And yesterday DD helped me change the flat tire on my car. She also picked pink out for most of her clothes. I hate pink so if she wanted to rebel at all, it would be wearing pink.

I think there is an appropriate time and place for discussing societal norms but when the boy child is picking out pink fairy wings or when the girl child wants a boy's skater haircut is not one of them. Then it would look more like disapproval than protection. I would rather have a general conversation at dinner.


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## wannabemoms (Sep 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg* 

Anyway, my point is: I was completely confident about the way I looked out in public. I know I didn't present as a "typical" girl, but I never really cared if it made anyone stare. What DID hurt me, deeply and in many ways irrevocably were the constant, "well-meaning" attempts by my mom to make me into someone who conformed more closely to her (and, I would say, society's) expectations of gender. There was never any cruelty or belittling...it was just the million little and not-so-little ways that she let me know that the way I was was NOT okay with her.

If you think you are protecting your child from hurt by encouraging them to conform to gender norms when those norms clearly do not represent who your child is...let me assure you, you're not. The criticism, implicit or explicit, we get from those who are supposed to love us unconditionally is far more hurtful than any stares from strangers or unkind words from the school bully. And, on the contrary, the support of his or her family can make all the difference in helping someone who is "different" feel good about him or herself. Just my two cents.

Yes. Yes. Yes. I couldn't have said it better.


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## TheGirls (Jan 8, 2007)

My DP grew up being told that girls wore certain clothes. Her mom made her wear a bra at age 9 (she's barely a C-cup now, and was a late bloomer, I doubt she even had buds at age 9). She always felt an attraction to men's clothing, but never wore it. Until college she pretty much dressed in only t-shirts and jeans, because these are ok for women.

Now that she's realized that women can actually wear whatever they want, she dresses almost exclusively in men's clothing. She also wears baseball caps, and no makeup. She does not sit with her legs together, or otherwise act like a "lady". She is mistaken for a man sometimes, but realized that she doesn't actually care which gender total strangers take her for. She really doesn't encounter huge problems often. She works in a very conservative industry, yet no one bats an eye at her masculine attire or affect.

I also don't wear skirts very often and never wear makeup. I can't say as I've ever considered either of us to be diluting our gender. I don't think DP's mother's insistance on female attire was at all helpful to her. Incidentally, my mother never had to insist, I was the girliest, pink-loving, frilly-dress wearing kid on the block. By my own choice. I now hate pink, do not own anything that might be called frilly, don't shave much, never wear makeup, etc. Funniest thing is that I like men's underwear- but only with skirts. Boxer briefs are great, they keep the legs from rubbing!

We're expecting a daughter. She'll have examples of both traditionally feminine women (lots in my family) and non-traditional women. She can choose whatever expression of gender she wants, and whatever style of clothing (so long as it gives appropriate coverage for the weather - we live in a cold climate in winter). If the ultrasound was wrong and we get a boy, I feel that the same rules would apply for him.


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TheGirls* 
We're expecting a daughter. She'll have examples of both traditionally feminine women (lots in my family) and non-traditional women. She can choose whatever expression of gender she wants, and whatever style of clothing (so long as it gives appropriate coverage for the weather - we live in a cold climate in winter). If the ultrasound was wrong and we get a boy, I feel that the same rules would apply for him.


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