# I don't feel this is a GD issue, do you?



## mysweetfiona (Apr 4, 2005)

My son and other boys & girls around his age (5), ingage in very theatrical play. Running, roaring, comanding, acting out what looks like completely innocent game of sharks/ pirates/ good guys/ loud firefighters/ hunters/ bears. He isn't ever playing this by himself, other kids seem to enjoy these games and are completely absorbed into them.

My issue is, I will not change his play. I will suggest he be aware of his friends' happiness to play or not. It's his liberty to decide what he wants to play.

Ok, so my parenting is judge as "not setting boundaries" "allowing bad behavior". And my child's (and others who play willfully with him) play is interpreted as mean. And actually called him mean kid, bad kid.

If for just a moment she would consider it is just play and any child can decide to or not to join. AND--for a moment allow the offended child the opportunity to observe that the children are happy to play together and not intending any harm. I feel like saying..."Wait until your child is 4,5,6 and wants to role play....loudly and energetically."
















That is a bit of a rant. And I was curious if this is age appropriate "behavior"/ play. It seems other kids this age love it. It's like self expression, I think.


----------



## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mysweetfiona*
I feel like saying..."Wait until your child is 4,5,6 and wants to role play....loudly and energetically."
















This particular comment makes me want to know the age of the child this happened with. I think that every child needs to respect others boundaries, whether or not they like those boundaries.


----------



## mysweetfiona (Apr 4, 2005)

Ok. To be clear, all the children playing are either 4,5,6 (so I've noticed, and think it must be a phase). This happens at every park with new and old friends. I know that most children younger than this, do not get it as play. And only *get* what they see or hear, literally. (Unless they have older siblings.







I tell my other children who are just not into it, that it is OK to let them know you don't want to play. That it is good to let them know what you think. My oldest will stop playing and respond to someone who seems mad or sad and tell them he was playing and not meaning any harm. It is a kid who chose to not play. He wants to make that understood to them. So, whoever wants to play is happy to, and whoever doesn't is considered too. The particular child that is at various play groups is not allowed to have another thought about this game, except: Yelling is bad and mean. Those kids are bad and mean and want to hurt me. I feel sad that he isn't given a chance to consider that they really don't want any harm and that all yelling and chasing isn't mean and hurtful. I think he would feel good about himself if he could say to them "I don't feel good about this, or I don't want to play....." It is a choice of play and he can choose not to, and it is ok either way.

And then there is the offensive judgement of my (and other moms') parenting practices, that has me upset. If it was my child getting upset or offended, which it has been, I helped them understand that it is not meant to harm them, but is actually playing they do for themselves. And that friends listen to friends. So that, yes, the boundaries are respected. They feel confident about to or not to play. **That goes for any kind of play, not just this one.

Does that help at all?

Oh, and does my child's play reflect my parenting? There isn't any physical or personal harm......they're pretending with eachother.


----------



## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Ya know, I guess if other's don't approve of your children's "play", they should probably take their child elsewhere. I do at times. I don't know why someone would subject their child to a situation that they are not comfortable with. That said, I do not tolerate any kind of pretend play that involves any kind of violence or hurtful/intimidating words. My kids do wrestle with each other, but never in a way to be intimidating, hurtful or dominating though.

I may not be understanding exactly what kind of play this is that your talking about though.


----------



## mysweetfiona (Apr 4, 2005)

hmm. Well. It's the kids putting on Firemen hats and running about to put out the fire or chop through the wood, the chief calling out orders, a pirate keeping sharks off the ship, putting on capes and practicing light sabors. There just happens to be a need to yell about it, and really get into the role. It is innocent and attention is given to any mistakes, like if the sabor gets to close and hurts another. They're still learning their limits, and we are there to help. I don't have the desire to tell them what to play or how to *play*. They have good intentions. Besides, I can't take my youngest kids away when their oldest brother chooses to battle a make believe dragon....or whatever they decide to play. Again, he isn't on his own. There seems to be a true desire for many 4,5,6 year olds to engage in these games. Maybe older kids, too. We are just surrounded with this age group, somehow.


----------



## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mysweetfiona*
hmm. Well. It's the kids putting on Firemen hats and running about to put out the fire or chop through the wood, the chief calling out orders, a pirate keeping sharks off the ship, putting on capes and practicing light sabors. There just happens to be a need to yell about it

And parents are upset about this??









This sounds like it's very normal, healthy, creative play. Why wouldn't you like your child to play with the others? I bet they wouldn't like how I play with my kids either. I've been known to chase them, roar at them, even jump out and say "boo" when we're playing hide and seek. Even my incredibly sound/stimuli sensitive son loves these games.

Any chance that the mother in question was raised in a small family of very quiet people (all girls??)? I'm just not sure how anyone could get the idea that all loud play = mean kids.

Personally, if this were someone at playgroup a lot, I'd have a talk with her. Tell her how it's developmentally appropriate for kids to play like this. That it's a great idea for kids to learn a range of play strategies, and isn't it great that they can be loud outside here where there's lots of room? Point out to her the kids negotiating their play, and let her see that your son and the other kids are careful with the little ones. (Is your son by any chance the oldest? If so, she might have no clue about what's developmentally OK for his age.)

The only time I'd intervene would be to direct the older kids to a location that's less likely to involve incidental contact with the little ones. Other than that, let 'em play!


----------



## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

I'm not getting a clear picture.

This is going on at a public park?

The "ship"...is that a play structure?

It sounds to me like they are taking over the playground. And IMO that's not cool.

Sometimes my boy is the loud one running around. But other times he's freaked out by other kids playing, because it scares him. I support him either way, but I do NOT let his running around impact other children who are trying to go about their business.

So if you are at a park and the group of kids is dominating the playground, then I see the point of the other person. If this child is not as outgoing, and wants to play in some other way but she is being scared or actually kept off the equipment thanks to the pirates defending the ship, whether or not it's physically keeping her off or she's just too timid to try to play near them...if *I* were the parent of a noisy player, I'd be trying to tone him down or move him elsewhere. If I were the parent of the more reticent child, I would NOT be going to the park when I expected the rowdy bunch to be there.

And since I have both kids in one







, I do and have done both.


----------



## mysweetfiona (Apr 4, 2005)

It could be seen as dominating the playground. Their intentions are not to scare everyone else. They just play together. Others do get close and play along or not. My kids were on the "not" end before. They've been told they couldn't go to this slide, or deck.... We've practiced "The playground is for everyone. I am not playing your game. I want....(to slide, etc.)

So then, when they notice someone wanting by, it isn't a problem. Until the mom comes along and says they are being mean, and to go over there instead. That just isn't so. Besides it isn't only at the playground. They play everywhere. It just isn't fair to the kids to be called mean, or to imply that they are behaving badly, or to judge my parenting. It goes like this: Kids start playing, mom is offended, mom and kid leave, kids keep playing happily and change activities often. It is too bad that the kid doesn't get to see this happy ending.

I agree that it would have been a good idea to talk about her concerns with me before all the mean boy talk. Honestly noone is being mean. We both could have benefited from an insightful conversation about how we felt about it. (and the other moms whose kids like to play) These kids see eachother once a week. They've become comfortable negotiating what they want. The timid children have become secure enough speak up, too. Allowing all the other playful kids to be labeled as "mean" because they yell and chase eachother while they're playing.....is just unfair. Ok, I think I've said that enough.









Are most other 4,5,6 year olds starting to play this way? It is so interesting and creative. Being outside is the place to get loud, and it is OK for a change.

My youngest kids don't always care for the loud, jumpy play either. I agree with helping them find another place they feel good about playing. And I also think it is reasonable to ask the other group to move out, in order to share play structure. And that happens. No problem.

I'll try to discuss it with her, just as soon as I get all the nice words that will help. Can't always say the right thing when I'm upset. I have to square it all up first.

Good night Moms!


----------



## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

I have to say, it's awfully hard to get the whole picture here, without knowing what is specifically being said in this "role play". If there are children in a public place, the timid or quiet ones shouldn't be forced to come out of their shells to defend their right to play quietly in certain areas. KWIM?


----------



## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I guess I think that teaching children courtesy and empathy is more important than not guiding the way they play. So, if they are roaring or shouting or whatever and that bothers other kids in a public place, then I would suggest a different game or have my loud roaring child and playmates move to someplace where they aren't scaring other children. Especially if the other kids are younger and don't understand that its just play and not a threat. IMHO older children should never be allowed to terrorize younger ones, even if they are just playing and don't mean any harm. Its not fair to the little ones because they have fewer options for moving away or playing elsewhere (because they need parents nearer by, because there are fewer parts of most playgrounds that are accessible for them, or whatever). Little kids also have fewer verbal skills to be able to get what they need. I get especially frustrated when a group of older, louder, kids playing more agressive games are doing it on or near the "little kids" play structures and I would probably intervene on behalf of my child if this were the situation. I want my kids to realize that it is always kinder to change or move if other children are upset or afraid of what they are doing. Even if what they are doing is age appropriate and mutual amongst those who are participating. And yeah, if there was a group of kids who were scaring mine at the playground, even unintentially, and their parent wasn't suggesting they change something, then I would probably be a bit judgemental about it.


----------



## pianojazzgirl (Apr 6, 2006)

:


----------



## Sijae (May 5, 2006)

Sounds like normal play to me. I was at the park today with a whole bunch of other parents and about 20 3-5 year olds. The most common activity on the playground involved them running after each other growling. It was loud, rowdy and harmless. I understand that older children shouldn't be so rowdy as to prevent the little ones from playing on the playground, but I consider the 3-6 year old age group totally appropriate for wild play on the playground. I also don't think that the one parent who doesn't like loud play ruin it for all the kids either.

Laura


----------



## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sijae*
I also don't think that the one parent who doesn't like loud play ruin it for all the kids either.

I don't think that one PARENT who doesn't like it should have any say it the matter. But a group of younger kids is a different story.


----------



## Twocoolboys (Mar 10, 2006)

I'm not entirely sure that I followed your description of what happens.

But, one thing that I did want to bring up is that, in my experience, when kids this age play together, especially when they play games with aggressive themes, there tends to be a lot of ganging up on each other. Like two kids being the cops and telling all the others they are the "bad" guys. I have no problem with expressive play, even with more wild themes, but when kids start feeling ganged up on, I draw the line.

If that is not what is happening, then I think the mother is being too sensitive, but if her child is the one that is always made to be the "bad" guy, or the "shark" that the pirates are keeping off the ship, etc. then, she may have a valid point.

I only mention it because I have seen it played out often with this age group.


----------



## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

For pity's sake, it's an outdoor playground! It isn't enough to keep little children cooped up inside, sitting still and being quiet all day, now they're not even supposed to run around and yell *outside*? If they're harassing other kids that's one thing, but just running around and yelling and being children? What on earth is wrong with that?

I think if there are other kids who don't want to play or are being intimidated, they should be able to go to another area, but I don't like how normal child play is being labeled "bad behavior"....


----------



## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

I had a little trouble following your posts, but I see it as a very situational kind of thing.

Coming from the perspective of a parent with a younger, smaller child at the park, I've had groups of older kids running around, screaming, doing their wild thing near my daughter, and as long as they aren't knocking her over and are being aware of her presence, I have no problem with it. She's doing her thing, they're doing theirs, and they're successfully sharing space.

Now, I've also had the same kids at times completely run over her and knock her over because she wasn't moving as fast as they were on a play structure and they weren't going to wait. NOT cool. And I will intervene in that situation if their parents choose not to. I've also had a child 2 years older than her pretending to be a monster and shoving his face and "claw" hands an inch away from her face, growling and roaring. Sure, he was just pretending, but that's VERY intimidating and right in her personal space. And his mom wasn't too happy that I asked him to back off because he was "just pretending," but I found that to be over the line. Even if she were the same age as him, if she were shy or easily intimidated, I'd speak up for her in that instance.

So without knowing the specific details, I'd say it really depends on the situation. There should be a middle ground where the more energetic and rowdy kids can play their way without "overpowering" the kids who are either younger or just not into the same kind of play, especially in an outdoor park with plenty of play space.


----------



## messy mama (Jan 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Twocoolboys*
I'm not entirely sure that I followed your description of what happens.

But, one thing that I did want to bring up is that, in my experience, when kids this age play together, especially when they play games with aggressive themes, there tends to be a lot of ganging up on each other. Like two kids being the cops and telling all the others they are the "bad" guys. I have no problem with expressive play, even with more wild themes, but when kids start feeling ganged up on, I draw the line.









:

I've had similar experiences. Kids actually blocking the entrances to the play structure. Yelling at my child. Making him the enemy when he doesn't even know them or want to play w/ them. Whether they are pretending or not, they _are_ being mean to my son.

Do I pack up and leave?

No, I tell the mean children to stop because my son wants to play on the slide. Then I tell them to leave him alone because he doesn't want to play their game.


----------



## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)

What she said. Really and truly, what she said.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna*
For pity's sake, it's an outdoor playground! It isn't enough to keep little children cooped up inside, sitting still and being quiet all day, now they're not even supposed to run around and yell *outside*? If they're harassing other kids that's one thing, but just running around and yelling and being children? What on earth is wrong with that?

I think if there are other kids who don't want to play or are being intimidated, they should be able to go to another area, but I don't like how normal child play is being labeled "bad behavior"....


----------



## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna*
For pity's sake, it's an outdoor playground! It isn't enough to keep little children cooped up inside, sitting still and being quiet all day, now they're not even supposed to run around and yell *outside*? If they're harassing other kids that's one thing, but just running around and yelling and being children? What on earth is wrong with that?

I think if there are other kids who don't want to play or are being intimidated, they should be able to go to another area, but I don't like how normal child play is being labeled "bad behavior"....

I understand what you're saying, but I have a sneaking suspicion that this play that's going on _might_ be beyond that. The OP has yet to be real specific on what exactly it is that is being complained about, just giving generalizations.


----------



## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna*
For pity's sake, it's an outdoor playground! It isn't enough to keep little children cooped up inside, sitting still and being quiet all day, now they're not even supposed to run around and yell *outside*? If they're harassing other kids that's one thing, but just running around and yelling and being children? What on earth is wrong with that?

I think if there are other kids who don't want to play or are being intimidated, they should be able to go to another area, but I don't like how normal child play is being labeled "bad behavior"....

Yeah. Totally.


----------



## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

From what I can tell, the playing sounds like how my ds (almost 5) plays. I wouldn't let him keep other kids from using the play equipment or get in their faces and yell. I make sure he is considerate of other kids using the playground. And I would definitly be scratching my head at someone who thought he was being mean when he was just being loud and active. I do understand that he sometimes looks aggressive when he is playing and a casual observer may steer a younger child to a farther location, which I used to do with him when he was younger.


----------



## Jennisee (Nov 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*
I understand what you're saying, but I have a sneaking suspicion that this play that's going on _might_ be beyond that. The OP has yet to be real specific on what exactly it is that is being complained about, just giving generalizations.

I have to agree with this. I have been in situations where I would agree with Briagnna, that parents were just being overly sensitive and trying to "quiet down" normal play, but I have also been in many of the situations others have described where children's "normal behavior" (as described by parents who refused to intervene) involved bullying, ganging up, physical intimidation, and monopolizing the playground. I can see both sides of the coin, and I would really have to hear more specifics before I could form an opinion, _particularly_ what the other mother was specifically objecting to.


----------



## Alana (Jan 4, 2005)

OP...Your son and my son would probably have a BLAST playing!! My son loves to run, and roar and carry on...in..what to me, is the strangest way!! What really cracks me up is when he plays with his girl cousin who is 3wks older. She is normally a quiet demure little girl...but she and Add can really roar and cause a ruckus. Actually the part that cracks me up, is my oldest sister clutching her chest and saying...Oh my oh my!







(she just had her first boy after 2 quiet little girls...and my sister is a total "girly girl")

I tell my son to always always always be aware of smaller children...never run past them on play equipment...let littles go first...etc. He has a 4yo brother and 2yo sister, so he is generally aware of it.

K


----------



## taz925 (Nov 29, 2001)

Okay I get what you are saying mysweetfiona. Some mother has decided the way your children play is mean without any discussion with anyone. She is wrong. She should have addressed the issue with you before she labeled your kids that way. If her child does not play that way and does not enjoy the play dates, well they need to find a different set of kids to play with. I would be mad if some decided my kids are mean from using their imaginations.

Some pps bring up blocking from equipment and rudeness, I don't think that is what is going on. I imagine the kids screaming fire and running around screaming and putting out a fire. Or some scenario where there is a dragon roaring and fire spewing etc. A child may not like fire or dragons and gets scared. This has happened with my younger child once or twice. I just reassure him they are just playing and there is no dragon and go on playing.

A note on parenting styles. Everyone parents differently. We are all different and no one has a right to tell you that that kind of play is wrong. It is age-appropriate, my three year old fights fires all the time. They can start a civil dialog about how your child's play is affecting theirs.

Now that the damage is done you need to decide what you want to do. Talk to her and see if you can come to some compromise. I don't know where you play and what the options are for moving the imaginative play away from the non-imaginative play. She needs to retract calling your kids mean and must make it clear to her children they are not mean. Name calling is not cool. They play different games and her kids don't have to play those games.

Doreen


----------



## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mysweetfiona*
It goes like this: Kids start playing, mom is offended, mom and kid leave, kids keep playing happily and change activities often. It is too bad that the kid doesn't get to see this happy ending.


Hmm, it's difficult to say. But as a mum with two girls who would be really upset by this sort of play, I can see the other mom's POV. A game like this that takes over parts of the playground or is unpredictable and moves around would freak my kids, and they'd want to leave asap.

I'm sure that a lot of kids want to play this sort of game, but a lot do not. And it can be quite scary for quieter kids or little ones to have too much yelling going on. My girls are sensitive souls, and one has SID. It would honestly be a nightmare for my family to be in a park or other place with this sort of game going on. We'd pack up and go home.

(But we wouldnt say anything about it, we'd jsut accept that this is not something that we are comfortable with and that we need to leave.


----------



## faithnj (Dec 19, 2004)

mysweetfiona said:


> ....I feel like saying..."Wait until your child is 4,5,6 and wants to role play....loudly and energetically."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Jennisee (Nov 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *faithnj*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mysweetfiona*
....I feel like saying..."Wait until your child is 4,5,6 and wants to role play....loudly and energetically."














[/B]

This sentence that you've written clearly suggests that the child who is feeling put upon is _younger than 4_. While the play your 5 year old engages in may be developmentally appropriate for him, watching all that screaming, yelling and mock violence is not developmentally appropriate for a younger child who is being scared by all the pretending going on. And suggesting to his mom that she let him watch until he realizes all the screaming and mock violence is making the bigger kids happy is not only not a good suggestion, imo. ( Perhaps he really is too young to understand it, and instead will just go home and have nightmares about playing with bigger boys, or any boys at all? Who knows? ) It's not necessarly fair to the mom. This boy just may never grow up to be the type to roughhouse. If she doesn't want him to witness this type of play, then she should take her son out of the playground. But if she just doesn't want your son to say "Boo!" or whatever to him. Then I think you need to ask your son not to say "Boo!" to this kid.

Brilliant post! How did it take us (myself included) two pages to catch on to that phrasing?! I still don't feel like we have the whole story, but it's starting to sound like a toddler (a 2 or 3 year old) is being scared by older kids.

I have a two year old, and I often take her to the fenced-in toddler playground at the park. The last time we were there, a group of older children (looked to be a mix of 5-7 year olds) started playing loudly on the toddler playground. There was nothing necessarily mean or age-inappropriate about their loud, imaginative play, but it really frightened some of the toddlers. My DD thought it was great and wanted to play with them, but other kids got their fingers stepped on, had the older kids yell in their face, and were scared by kids running at and past them.


----------



## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Okay, if the children in question are hurting or harassing other, younger children, then yes, I agree that that should be stopped. But from the OP it sounded like this other parent was calling MySweetFiona's son and his friends "bad" and "mean" just for running around, making noise, and being children. That is what I thought was unreasonable.


----------



## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jennisee*
Brilliant post! How did it take us (myself included) two pages to catch on to that phrasing?! I still don't feel like we have the whole story, but it's starting to sound like a toddler (a 2 or 3 year old) is being scared by older kids.

Oh come on guys, do you have me on ignore?














I asked about that phrase in post number 2, to which the OP responded in post number three that the children involved were 4,5 and 6 as well.







I guess I don't understand the need for that phrase if the children are all the ages mentioned.









As I and others have said before, I too don't think we have the whole story. I guess that's fine if the op doesn't want to tell the whole story, but it becomes somewhat of an unproductive discussion when you don't have all the facts.


----------



## mysweetfiona (Apr 4, 2005)

and the day before that I had to prepare for it. Very sorry I left for a bit.









I've read through the posts and (before I confuse any further) will take it all in and figure out why it seems mysterious.









I'm being tugged right now. I have to go save my "taaaaaawven" dd.







(that was starving)

Lori


----------



## Kontessa (Nov 5, 2005)

I worry about the idea that one should not change the play if a young child. Children act out what they know and it is our job to help them thrive. To thrive I think one needs to care about others and their situations.

If left unchecked in places like public schools and play grounds, it can seem to some children that are not directed in social play that ganging up and threatening and bully play is the way to thrive! I have sean it many times before and I do step in when my daughter or another child need support and other kids needed to be reminded of why everyone is there, to play and have fun.

In our house, if play is agressive or turns violent I will certainly step in and try to better direct it. having a daughter who is almost 7 and going to many public parks, I have stepping in before.

Sometimes my daughter is the ring leader, sometimes she chooses to play alone. Once she played a whol afternoon alone and only on the way home did she tell me that the older kids where threatening to throw rocks at her because she would not play their "slave" game.







: Some how, with all the adults around, we had no clue what the kids where playing!

If a child is not seeming ok with a situation I think it key too look deeper.

That poor mama that called your child bad and said things about your parenting chances are did so because she was feeling hurt and worried. Not knowing any better this seems like a "normal" thing to do for most people. Maybe try using NVC/GD with her.

Just my thoughts. Take what you will.

Blessings,
Kimmy


----------



## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

I would have to agree with some others who feel like we don't have the whole story. There are some parents who are oversensitive and be upset by loud normal playing, but it seemed like this was a recurring problem for the OP. If its recurring that would cause me to look at what was really going on and was my child playing nicely with others?


----------



## mysweetfiona (Apr 4, 2005)

I was upset about the harsh judgements (not here with you all) by a fellow mom. I felt like she wasn't honest with at least me (& other moms) about her concerns. I would have liked for her to not feel that her child is being tormented, so that talking with him about it later could leave other thoughts for him as well. (Instead of the yelling kids are mean to me, wouldn't it be better if he might feel that he has loud friends that are playful?) So the difference would be not that he is in bad company, but that he has discovered how that rambunctious play makes him feel & how he can handle himself, kids are good & my friends care about me.) Afterall, she does make a conscious decision to return to the group. Why would mom make me play with the mean kids? That's what I would wonder. She really can influence his opinion, as she already has. I'll try to make this point with her.

I don't know how to be more specific really. I was pretty tired, no doubt could've been confusing to read. Sorry 'bout that! This wasn't just a one time playdate. It's a group thing once a week. Oh, the child is 3 1/2. I have made statements directly to her about how her child understands only what he sees from the other kids & maybe not the playfulness. That was an attempt, she barely listened and left shortly. I have spoken to the child, too. "They're yelling at the pirates! Their faces look so serious! Do want to go down the slide? Can I help you let them know?"

I definitely should help her see another perspective. If she feels better, he will feel better.









I am so happy many of you have experienced the playground and can offer your point of views. So, this is an important concern for most moms. It is good to hear it from both sides. Can you see how this certain age group needs this type of play? I find that so interesting.

I have 3 kids. The oldest is 5. (5,4,2). They all just had bdays. (With their different phases and personalities) So in my home if we are to live in harmony, personal boundaries are respected. They are learning where their own boundaries/ limits are within their world, and how they affect others around them. At the playground (or groups), that is where parenting comes in. I am most definitely attentive to the kids' personal/ emotional boundaries. They don't have it all figured out, yet, so we must guide them. Kids are good and well intented. I want them to feel good about themselves and with whom they are surrounded. KWIM?

Example: If a child roars at another, he might roar back and chase him happily. He may cry and find mom, or hide. So, for me I would see a need to help communicate. Really, if a child roars at another most times it is an invitation to come play. The Roarer may need to be aware of how the other child felt about it. The Other child would find it helpful to know that he was wanted to play with. A few feelings would be discussed. And we could chat for a bit for a solution. A quick "Let's roar. Want to play? or something...." I find this much more helpful to the child than whisking him away and leaving him to wonder why kids were mean to him. And leaving the other child (roarer) unaware of what happened, which is just bound to happen again until he does know.

I am finding that rambuncious loud play is a great way to become aware of their personal and social abilities. Self control, empathy, their own limits/ boundaries, others' boundaries, etc.... And on the other side the younger children are learning so much, too. (their feelings, kids play differently, I *can* do what I want/say/ play, too, I am good and the other kids care, I can count on Mom for help, big kids aren't out to get me) I know too, how some big kids do cause harm without any consideration. That would be a time to stop and leave, address the big kids with: You must stop or leave. That is truely a time to protect. It is not the same as observing children who are very happy with eachother playing loud and rowdy. We can't control how any of our kids feel, but we can offer help and other possibilities for them to consider.

Playground story:
There was a 10 year old at a playground with his little brother of 3. My then 4 yo was in the tube with them, up very high. I heard him say punch him, punch him, he can hit you hard! I looked up and my son was saying: You can not HIT me, hitting hurts, stop! The older kid was telling his very own brother to hit my son. My ds was holding out his hand and blocking him, very afraid of wanting to hit him back (he was smaller than my ds), so ds was crying. I shouted for ds to come out. He was SO upset. I told him we were leaving. He gave me the story, pleading actually that he didn't want to hurt the little boy. Let me know how it all happened. **Guess who had to stand up for ds? Yep, ME.** Their mother just as far as I was, didn't get off her seat or say a THING. I shouted for them to come out. They did. Gave the speech of hitting hurts. The playground is for playing. You're not playing. My son is hurt and confused why you would have a little boy hit him. His reply: My friends hit me.







He seemed genuinely surprised that he wasn't making friends for his younger brother. He was sad for my ds and apologized and promised he wouldn't do it again. I told him it was better to have no friends than to allow them to hit him. They weren't friends at all. His mom advocated for the hitters by saying, we live in the country...they're all he has. Yeah, I did judge her. It was worthy.







: My point though is that instead of leaving immediately. I took a breath and moment to listen to my son, deal with it and they actually played like best buddies for a good hour. My son didn't feel like he was tormented and hopefully the other kids MAY think about it again, too.

OH no! Am I all confusing again?






























Lori


----------



## Kontessa (Nov 5, 2005)

I am not sure I can be clear about that I am thinking, but I will try.

I sounds as if you would like this other mother to tell her son that the play he is not comfortable with, the kind she thinks is bad, is ok. She thinks there is something wrong with it for a reason. She could well be over protective. It sounds though, as if her son was afraid, and she acted out of worry for him. Her comments about you make is sound like she does not trust you or the kids to care for her son. If her and her son feel this way, telling them to feel something else is not going to help I would think.

You said: Kids are good and well intended.

But then gave a story about a bully egging on your son to do a hurtful thing. I do not think that was good or well intented. Kids can learn to be hurtful and use it as a way to fill their needs. They need others right with them to help them meet their needs in a different way.

You have a need to let your little ones be who they are while playing.

It sounds like this other mother has a need to keep her son safe, in a peaceful place. She might keep coming back trying to meet this need with other kids, not really yours.

There has got to be a better way to make you both feel better without her leaving.

I worry you might not be open to molding play if it is not ok. If someone roars at my child, an aggressive action I might add, I do not think she would want to play with them unless she was very comfortable with them already. Your kids play this a lot it sounds. They have eachother, this only little boy does not. It sounds like he is alone actually.

I hope this does not sound like I think your a bad mother, I do not think that. I think though, our opinions on group public play and how to talk to this other mother is not accord. I could be wrong and wires could be crossed.

Happens lots on the net!

Blessings,
Kimmy


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

There was a rule at a wonderful pre-K where I took a child development class that said that both or all children had to be willing participants in the play, whatever it was going to be. I observed this rule and felt that it was really nice. We do that. It works well because there is a more neutral role for the caregiver. Rather than having to decide what play the kids are comfortable with ~ one just needs to check that everyone is willing.

As far as encouraging children to resolve a challenging interaction, that has a lot of variables. Some children might not do well with that and there is certainly an age factor as well. There's parental burn out. There is also the obvious difference in what parents or families do in these situations, even on a good day. I take a real hands off approach to children playing and I think I might prefer DC just not playing with someone she wasn't cool with over me navigating a friendship.


----------



## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Honestly, if they were just running around making really loud noise and roaring at each other or something, my 2.25 yo dd would be in there so fast. She actually plays a little - um - rough for her age (okay with the boys, but she scares the girls), so I have to intervene a lot when she's playing with girls her age (usually it's just a hug that's too "bear"ish or a roar or something that scares other girls). She's a bit young to understand that she's got to tone it down with some kids, but she's learning.
Anyway, I guess my point is you can't judge how a kid's going to handle certain types of play just based on age, each child is different.


----------



## Ayala Eilon (Apr 8, 2006)

I just don't get what the issue is.


----------



## Ayala Eilon (Apr 8, 2006)

I don't see the problem. Such play is wonderful. Did I misunderstand something? What is the problem? You are describing wonderland of play and joy. I just don't get it. It is natural that your son won't play this by himeself. More participants are needed, and, group play is different. Anyway, I would enjoy and whoever has a problem can go elsewhere.


----------



## mysweetfiona (Apr 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ayala Eilon*
I don't see the problem. Such play is wonderful. Did I misunderstand something? What is the problem? You are describing wonderland of play and joy. I just don't get it. It is natural that your son won't play this by himeself. More participants are needed, and, group play is different. Anyway, I would enjoy and whoever has a problem can go elsewhere.

I don't think there is any problems with the kids choice of play, or how any of the mother's handle any upsets or whatever... I think the problem I had is being judged as a mother who doesn't set any clear boundaries or discipline because I allow my kids to play among their friends with loud growling voices and chasing, even though her son doesn't understand it. What if her son loved to play that way too, would I then become a fabulous mom?

We always should take care of our kids, leaving if need be. But, for goodness sakes, say something to the parents that you see each week if you feel bad about something. (I'm of course talking about the mom I've dissappointed so greatly.)









Lori


----------



## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

I am so sorry to add to any confusion in this thread, but I have had to remove several posts that mentioned blogs (or quoted a post mentioning blogs). Please note that the MDC User Agreement asks that we avoid:

Quote:

Posting to invite members to other online discussion and posting venues for debate purposes or *posting about discussions elsewhere online. This is to maintain and respect the integrity of our own and other communities.*
This includes Blogs.

Thank you so much for understanding. Please feel free to repost w/o making mention of the above. Please feel free to PM me if you need further clarification.


----------



## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

.


----------



## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mysweetfiona*
hmm. Well. It's the kids putting on Firemen hats and running about to put out the fire or chop through the wood, the chief calling out orders, a pirate keeping sharks off the ship, putting on capes and practicing light sabors. There just happens to be a need to yell about it, and really get into the role. *It is innocent and attention is given to any mistakes, like if the sabor gets to close and hurts another.* They're still learning their limits, and we are there to help. I don't have the desire to tell them what to play or how to *play*. They have good intentions. Besides, I can't take my youngest kids away when their oldest brother chooses to battle a make believe dragon....or whatever they decide to play. Again, he isn't on his own. There seems to be a true desire for many 4,5,6 year olds to engage in these games. Maybe older kids, too. We are just surrounded with this age group, somehow.









(bold mine)
It seems as though perhaps your dc is playing too rough. I could be wrong, but in my experience, moms don't simply accuse children of being mean. Honestly, I can't imagine a mom (one that you know - not a stranger) watching children play and then accusing one of being mean unless that child had done something. Perhaps she is being too sensitive or refusing to allow a discussion, but based on what you have posted, it doesn't appear so.....

In another post, you mentioned letting them play without directing their play. It seems as though your children are dominating the playground and being fairly rough.

I apologize if I have read to much into your posts. But the combination of roaring in kids faces, hitting with sabors, younger kids and no parent involvement sounds like a recipe for disaster.


----------



## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

I'm confused as to what is being considered "bad" behavior?!?! my 3 year old and his friends (ranging up to age 5) play these games constantly... and I've never heard any of those boys referred to as "bad". They jump on each other, roll to the ground roaring all the while are "swim around in a wild SHARK FRENZY" pretending to chomp each other with their "arm" jaws. Maybe someone is being too rough? Mistakes happen and even my 3 yo knows this and the occasional "bump" or "jab" is forgiven. But, maybe what's happeing is your child is "making contact" more often then not and it's frustrating the other players? Maybe he needs a "make sure it's JUST PRETEND playing" talk?


----------



## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
There was a rule at a wonderful pre-K where I took a child development class that said that both or all children had to be willing participants in the play, whatever it was going to be. I observed this rule and felt that it was really nice. We do that. It works well because there is a more neutral role for the caregiver. Rather than having to decide what play the kids are comfortable with ~ one just needs to check that everyone is willing.









:

And I think that's what the OP was saying, too, isn't it? That if the child is uncomfortable, she'd like to facilitate a dialogue between the two children (or the uncomfortable child and the group) so that the group understands what the uncomfortable child's limits are (and the child learns how to express them) and the child understands that the group isn't trying to be mean to him.

FWIW, my son's school has the same rule and it works beautifully. The age span is 2-9 (most of the kids are in the 2-5 range). They're now at the point where they all engage in imaginative play together and the olders understand the limits of the youngers. The youngers are also secure enough now that they express their discomfort quite readily.

I know this can be difficult in a public place as there is not the same dynamic with a group that is always changing. But it seems to be a good experience in communication. Part of the issue, IMO, is that so many people at the playground prefer to be passive-aggressive about any issues rather than actually engaging in finding a mutually agreeable solution with people they don't know well.

Ds has been bullied or excluded when we're on the playgroun. I've almost invariably found that the other children were receptive when I addressed the situation. If he wanted to slide and they were barring him from a play structure, I'd say something like, "Your game looks very exciting. He doesn't want to play that right now. He'd like to slide instead." When he was being bullied (on 2 occasions, older children have either pushed or hit him), I'd say, "Ds, you can say to him, 'Don't hit me! It's mean and I don't like it!'" (That's after making a loud noise to stop the hitting and get attention.)

Sometimes bullies are bullying or children are excluding not because they're mean but because they don't know better.


----------



## mysweetfiona (Apr 4, 2005)

Quote:

*QUOTE=lab](bold mine)
It seems as though perhaps your dc is playing too rough. I could be wrong, but in my experience, moms don't simply accuse children of being mean. Honestly, I can't imagine a mom (one that you know - not a stranger) watching children play and then accusing one of being mean unless that child had done something. Perhaps she is being too sensitive or refusing to allow a discussion, but based on what you have posted, it doesn't appear so.....*
Some of my posts have been deleted because it mentioned a blog, too. So, it is possible that you didn't get to read some other points. I have metioned that I've attempted to discuss it with her, offering her my empathy and trying to explain the different sides of the younger/older child's play. Her child actually seems interested. He isn't allowed to explore it though, because they leave. And the kids (other than my own, I've been just trying to speak for myself and mine) are unfairly judged as being mean & bad because they like to play this way.

Quote:

*In another post, you mentioned letting them play without directing their play. It seems as though your children are dominating the playground and being fairly rough.*
Directing children's play would be telling them what and how to play whatever I chose for them. That is not at all what I desire. They can do that for themselves. It is my job and I'm happy it is, to help the kids whenever limits/ boundaries are crossed. (physically or emotionally) Isn't there still a post here that I described that?

Quote:

I apologize if I have read to much into your posts. But the combination of roaring in kids faces, hitting with sabors, younger kids and no parent involvement sounds like a recipe for disaster.
That's a non-issue. There is parent involvement. See in the quote you bolded? ....attention is given to mistakes....









edited to clean it up, what happened there?.....


----------



## Ayala Eilon (Apr 8, 2006)

I hate this rule of including all the children. It is not fair and can prevent some of the most imaginative play. I still don't see anything wrong with one child choosing not to play. The kind response is to offer that child something else to do by himself. "I see that you don't like this game. Would you like a puzzle/book/food...?)
I don't see the benefit of being in someone else's business like this. It is disrespectful to the child who isn't playing and the other kids will resent him.
He is fine and will learn a lot from his own experience and choice.


----------



## mysweetfiona (Apr 4, 2005)

Dragonfly--
Maybe that is where the problem starts. Passive aggressive. To feel very strongly about something, but not share that point when it's needed, leaves the situation incomplete. So, then, it is repeated of course, because it isn't known. And it is just unfortunate (especially for the kids in this situation) that we all aren't given a chance to "shine". It is ended too soon by the parent and child leaving with bad feelings. And probably, whenever her child is ready to play this way, she'll find herself in my shoes--realizing that it is play and involving herself to the mistakes kids make as they are learning their place, abilities, and boundaries in the world.

I really find relief, somewhat, that a lot of moms can relate to my situation. And it is nice to hear all the perspectives, too. I think it would just be helpful and fair to give a benefit of doubt before judging another mom and her children. That was the whole delimma for me, personally.

I feel good in my own abilities to help all the kids respect eachother. Sometimes they just need a suggestion to become aware of what they did. Afterall, they wouldn't play together if they didn't care about eachother. They do care how they make their friends feel.

Also, the confusion in this thread is because (guessing here) it is hard to see the problem with playing, and where it had gone wrong. I, too, was confused. I didn't have the answers myself. Everything seems normal to me. And we (the parents of rambuncious kids) are responsible. Yeah, I didn't quite know what the problem is either.

Let's talk about something else already! How 'bout that rude lady at the grocery store? Hope she is feeling better!









Lori


----------



## mysweetfiona (Apr 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ayala Eilon*
I hate this rule of including all the children. It is not fair and can prevent some of the most imaginative play. I still don't see anything wrong with one child choosing not to play. The kind response is to offer that child something else to do by himself. "I see that you don't like this game. Would you like a puzzle/book/food...?)
I don't see the benefit of being in someone else's business like this. It is disrespectful to the child who isn't playing and the other kids will resent him.
He is fine and will learn a lot from his own experience and choice.


Oh, no. I think they mean that if a child is going to be roared with, that the child is willing to be roared with. And that it isn't ok to roar at the kids that you aren't sure that they want to play. Everyone who is playing, wants to play, is the point. See what I mean. Someone help me here!


----------



## Jennisee (Nov 15, 2004)

Going to try to reconstruct my deleted post.







I'm sorry if it doesn't make sense as I'm trying to both recreate what I posted and respond to posts since then.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*
Oh come on guys, do you have me on ignore?














I asked about that phrase in post number 2, to which the OP responded in post number three that the children involved were 4,5 and 6 as well.







I guess I don't understand the need for that phrase if the children are all the ages mentioned.









Sorry, I did miss that you quoted that sentence as well. I give you your props!














I did notice, though, that the OP answered by saying the ages of the children playing, _not_ the age of the child who was upset. Now we know that the child was actually 3. That may seem like semantics, but it makes a big difference in the developmental level of the children involved. It also makes me question whether that information was purposely withheld in order to manipulate the responses.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mysweetfiona*
It goes like this: Kids start playing, mom is offended, mom and kid leave, kids keep playing happily and change activities often.

I still don't completely understand what happened because there is a huge gap between "kids start playing" and "mom gets offended." I know you gave some examples, but I'm not sure if those are examples of what upset the mom, OR if they are simply examples of how the children play. Why did the mom get offended? Did she leave because her 3 year-old was upset, or did she intervene in a situation in which her child wasn't even upset at all? And what was the offending behavior? Was her child labeled a "shark" and not allowed to play on the playground? Was he roared at as he tried to go down the slide? Was he scared by children swinging "sabers" at his head? I don't mean to sound anal, but it is a lot easier for me to understand the situation when I hear, "A happened. Then B happened. Then she said X and I responded with Y. Then C happened."

For me, a very critical point here is that up until page 2, it sounded as if the upset mother was making comments to you and your children _while at the playground._ It sounded like the upset mother was calling the children "bad children" to their face. But then you seemed to say that the mother did _not_ cause a scene at the playground, but that you found out through second-hand sources that the mother was upset. If that is the case, then I don't think there was anything wrong with the mother removing the child from the situation, leaving without causing a scene, and then venting privately about what upset her. If I am wrong, though, and she did, in fact, call your children "bad children," then I'm sorry that they had to hear that.









I apologize if I appear argumentative. I do not mean to as, like I said, I've been on both sides of this issue. I am just confused as to what happened and am trying to make sense of it.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mysweetfiona*
Oh, no. I think they mean that if a child is going to be roared with, that the child is willing to be roared with. And that it isn't ok to roar at the kids that you aren't sure that they want to play. Everyone who is playing, wants to play, is the point. See what I mean. Someone help me here!









That's what I mean, anyway. The kids can play, spit water in eachother's faces. They can play "I'm the prettiest princess and you're the monster". They can play I'm the mean mom and you're the kid. They can play that they're stealing toys, chase... The thing that matters, to me, is that all the kids want to play ~ who are in that game.

It helps me "stay out of it". If I see my DC doing something that I'm not sure the other kid would like, I just step in and talk to everyone about being clear about wanting to play or not.

I mentioned it because I wasn't sure that this 3.5 year old in the OP was a willing participant in the roaring game.

Sorry, got to run...


----------



## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mysweetfiona*
Oh, no. I think they mean that if a child is going to be roared with, that the child is willing to be roared with. And that it isn't ok to roar at the kids that you aren't sure that they want to play. Everyone who is playing, wants to play, is the point. See what I mean. Someone help me here!









Exactly. There are actually 2 rules about involving other children in this sort of play at my son's school. The first is that every child involved must be involved of their own free will. The second is that any child is welcome to be involved as long as their involvement isn't a disruption to the story. In other words, no child is excluded as long as s/he can think of a way to be enter into the play without disrupting the other children's experience.

It works incredibly well.


----------

