# Questioning or Former Veg*n Support/Chat



## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

This thread is a place for former veg*ns or veg*ns who are considering moving toward a diet that includes more animal products and also for others with constructive feedback to post.

Please stay positive and supportive on this thread! We are creating a space to discuss our thoughts/feelings/experiences. This thread is a spin-off from http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/1297581/help-a-veg-girl-cross-over#post_16267182

Any chat/discussion relevant to the thread title is welcome.

Let the chat begin!


----------



## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

Well, I'm Jes, 28 yr old mama to two: ds 6mo and dd 7yr. Ds is just now starting to really dig food but is almost exclusively breastfed still. Dd has been vegetarian along with me since she was about 18mo. We started out vegan for a couple of years, then became lacto/ovo when dh came into our home, maybe three years of that. This last year or so, I've been sushitarian  (every great once in a while I'd have sushi or occasional salmon). I was primarily vegetarian for my last pregnancy. Dh was never veg but went along with mostly veg at home and I do believe his health has benefitted primarily because we have been on a whole foods diet.

Recently (just this month) I started massively craving meat, totally different from any prior meat cravings, even when pregnant (I might crave a burger then, but I would just eat iron/protein foods, and it would go away). This was unstoppable! Combined with some health issues that I was having and feeling just basically disgusted at my beloved grain/legume foods, I decided that my body was telling me it was time.

I'm looking forward to talking to some other mommas here about experiences that may be specific to us becoming accustomed to animal-based foods again.


----------



## bodhitree (May 12, 2008)

Hi Jes! Thanks for starting this thread. I'm Kristin. I'm almost 33 and have a DD who will be 2yo in April. I've been vegetarian for fifteen years, mostly vegan for much of that time. I did start eating more dairy when we were TTC and ate quite a bit during DD's first 18 months, but I never really ate eggs unless they were hidden in something else (like baked goods) that someone else had made. When DD was 18mo, I figured out she had issues with dairy, so we cut that out, and have since cut out gluten, soy, chocolate, and oranges as well in an effort to get all of her problem foods out of our diet (she is still nursing, so her food restrictions also apply to me).

After cutting out all of these foods, I started really thinking about why I eat what I eat, for the first time in a very long time. I had known for a while that I wasn't fitting in very well with my veg friends. They all seem to believe that the way to health for everyone is to eat a high carb, very low fat diet, and that being vegan is the ideal goal for everyone. And if you can eat raw, so much the better! Well, I have learned through experience that I feel like crap on a low fat diet, and when I'm not eating enough fat and protein, I crave sugar. And I don't think it's wrong to use animals for food, as long as it's done in a respectful, humane, grateful manner. For sure I am more of a Michael Pollan fan than an Ingrid Newkirk fan.







And I also think that hunting is a positive thing--my dad's a hunter, so I've learned a lot about that from him. So yeah, I haven't really been feeling at home in the veg camp for a while now.









I started reaching my breaking point when we tried avoiding corn and peanut for a couple of weeks. Suddenly I was craving meat, which was the weirdest feeling ever. In the past, if I wanted something vaguely meaty, I would go get veggie Italian sausage or something, but of course all of that stuff is made with gluten and soy, so I can't have it now. I don't know that I'm ready to sit down and eat a piece of meat yet, although I have the feeling that day is coming. For now I compromised by going out and buying eggs (pastured and organic, so I feel okay about it) for the first time in at least 15 years. The eggs are helping with the meat cravings, but I still think DD and I need more variety in our diets. Using beans as my sole major source of protein will not cut it anymore.

So that's my story. I'm not quite sure where I'm headed from here, especially since DH has no interest in changing his diet, so that will complicate things like cooking family meals if/when DD and I eat meat. Sigh. I'll figure it out, right?


----------



## askew (Jun 15, 2006)

I have been vegetarian for 20 years and was vegan for about 10. Then I started getting more in the idea of traditional foods and added back raw dairy and local eggs. I have a goat farm two doors down, a woman with chickens a block down, and an organic cow dairy at the end of my road. So it came easy. I feed my kids eggs daily. We make kefir and yogurt with the dairy we buy. We also backed away from flour products for a while, but I like to bake. So now I am looking into baking with sprouted grains.


----------



## simplyc (Jul 10, 2010)

I'm so glad I'm not the only one!

Me and Dh have been vegetarian for over 5 years, I don't even remember cooking meat, and Dh never cooked any "raw" meat (just frozen prepared chicken tenders or other yucky stuff). We became vegan over 2 years ago but mainly because we didn't agree with factory farming. Since we've matured and been considering having our own farm, we've seen how animals CAN be raised and eaten humanely and I've started to feel animal products are an important component to our diet.

Over a year ago when I was using vegan margarine I asked myself why use fake stuff with a long ingredient label over just butter?! We decided to start adding some dairy back and I love milk and cheese more now than I ever did before! Dh also became extremley thin while vegan and finally put on some much needed weight once he regularily ate eggs and dairy.

I've been researching a lot about traditional diets and incorporating lots of fermented foods, soaking our grains and beans, making sourdough...but it's so heavy on meat! Since eating dairy and loving it I am craving meat MORE than ever before and am really just curious to try it again ( I was an extremley picky eater before going vegan and really want to experiment more!) but Dh doesn't seem to have the desire.

I feel really guilty about eating meat though







We are on a very strict budget and the thought of buying even one local organic pasture fed chicken would set us back a lot, I don't even know if we could afford it....but I have no desire to eat meat that was factory farmed, I'd rather stay veggie! Plus I wouldn't want to waste the meat if we tried it and didn't like eating meat again.

I'm really more and more drawn towards meat...but I can't buy anything cheap, I don't think my consious would let me, and Dh agrees he wouldn't touch it.

For those of you that have eaten meat, what was the first thing you ate? I'm afraid I might gag when I try it again after so long!

Maybe I'll start with bone broth or a small amount of bacon....gotta check out trader joe's and see what they have...


----------



## Keeta (Jul 4, 2005)

Hi everyone! I'm Chessa, 32, mama to 2 boys (4 1/2 and 1 year). I've been mostly vegetarian with stints of veganism for over 12 years - EXCEPT for 7-8 months during DS1's pregnancy. I totally fell off the wagon then and was eating meat - the cravings were out of control and I just went with it with no regrets. When he w as 5 months old I went back to vegetarian. I strongly craved meat during DS2's pregnancy but abstained, because I didn't know how I could eat meat and not let DS1 (who is a very curious and adventurous eater) try it (DH wasn't on board then). Fast forward to a few months ago - my DH has been having digestive issues and food-related weirdness for over a year and a half (really weird stuff - he'll eat something, it'll make him either a) pee every ten minutes - and I'm not talking a few drops, I'm talking a bladder-full of urine! b)have a scratchy throat and a "buzzy" feeling c)bad headache d) all of the above.) And the list of offending foods is long and random and hateful (peaches, bananas, citrus, apples, strawberries, wheat [except when eaten with a lot of cheese?! ie fettucine alfredo or sometimes pizza], soy, chili peppers, quinoa, and he's always been allergic to caramel color, caffeine and chocolate). Since I do all the cooking, I just got seriously fed up with the list of no-nos and told him that I was adding meat back to my diet because I refuse to live on beans and rice. Sorry. (I'd have a little more patience if he'd take himself to the dang doctor to investigate the situation). Anyway! Dairy really seems to help him out (he sleeps better if he has ice cream before bed - sounds good to me!)

Introducing meat to the 4 year old was a trip - he was both repulsed and terribly excited about it. I made boneless skinless chicken breast the first time - very easy to transition on. Now we roast a chicken every week or two. I LOVE it. Like psychotically moan with pleasure while eating it. I have no issues at all. We buy only organic meat and dairy and eggs. I try to throw some money to the local producers when we can, but I'm not going to lie - it's just not in the budget that often. Local (whole) organic chicken is $4.99/lb at the cheapest at the farmer's market! I can get it for $1.99/lb organic at the local co-op.

I totally feel the same way, SimplyC, about the butter thing! We were buying Earth Balance long after we had added other dairy back into our diet. One day I was like, "Why are we doing this?" We started buying butter. I've never been one to really worry too much about soy, but when the baby started eating solids I found myself really avoiding giving it to him. One day I recognized what I was doing and really questioned myself about it. I realized that I had no issues giving him animal products (yogurt, eggs, meat) - they're so, well, whole. No ingredient list for the most part. So that was another step back toward adding meat to our diet.

It's funny, my DH and both kids are not huge meat fans. DS1 says he is, but he doesn't inhale the meat or anything. Me? It's kind of like I was making up for lost time. Part of it is that since I'm still nursing the baby (who is 28 freaking pounds at a year) I'm ALWAYS HUNGRY. And I know it's cliche, but the things that I crave and that are the most satiating are meat and dairy. Nuts are good, too. But it's really meat and dairy I want. And I've just decided that I'm going to listen to my body and respect it. If I suddenly feel bad, I'll change. But so far, so good.

I love to cook, and honestly, it's been fun learning how to cook all over again. DH still refuses to do red meat, so we've stuck with chicken and pork (only done pork once - but I have a tenderloin in the fridge...wish me luck!) We still eat vegetarian at least 3-4 times a week (for dinner; lunch is leftovers usually or PBJ).

So glad I'm not the only one!


----------



## bodhitree (May 12, 2008)

Simplyc, are you, like, my doppelganger or something? I so identify with everything you wrote.







We are also on a very limited budget, and I *will not* eat factory farmed or otherwise unethically produced animal products. I've been checking out what options I have locally, and of course they're all expensive. I too am interested in eventually having some animals, maybe just chickens. I think I decided that if we eat eggs happily for a year, then we'll look into getting some backyard chickens.

And I'm also thinking about what meat I would start with. Bacon does sound good, especially alongside the scrambled eggs I just learned how to make.







IIRC the last meat I ate, in my freshman year of college lo these many years ago, was pepperoni. Is there such a thing as ethically produced pepperoni? Of course since I can't have dairy right now due to DD's allergies, pepperoni wouldn't be as much fun.


----------



## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

There's so much I relate to with all of you that I can't even repeat it.

I won't eat factory farm meat either, no way. I'd rather eat beans and rice, too. Luckily I live in an agricultural community, and right now I'm researching the most economical way to purchase local-est and organic-est meat we can afford.

Last year we did a fruit/veggie CSA, and it set us back quite a bit coz we had to pay upfront, but the price per week was like $30 for a ridiculous amount of groceries. Seems to me the best way would be to approach meat similarly, hit up local farms and talk to them about a bulk deal, ie buy so many whole chickens and get a discount per pound. So I have been googling and looking on eatwild and localharvest to find farmers within a short drive from whom we could purchase ethical meat.

The first meat I ate post-veg was chicken, and a big part of why I bought the chicken is because I was massively craving bone broth---I really feel like my body needs it right now. The chicken meat was actually secondary to me for getting that broth, like it's medicinal at this point. Before we used it up, we were all having a hot cup of broth with a little salt and squeeze of lemon in the morning like coffee







I swear it was so energizing like I could feel my body absorbing the nutrition









Dd was funny abt the whole thing; she was getting all grossed out by the idea, but my girl loves her some broth. When she smelled the broth cooking, that was a deal sealer. She was helping me take the meat off the bone in no time.

Btw, they do make "ethical pepperoni"  and salami and such. Let me find a link, they are a local company to me . . . well at least here is bison summer sausage, which is pretty similar right? http://www.elkusa.com/Rich's%20Bargain%20Barn.htm It's even on sale









My big step was deciding in my mind that I was going to do this. I went to the hfs and kept repeating my meat mantra to myself "I'm going to buy a chicken; I'm going to buy a chicken"







and I circled around and got my produce and perused forever over what chicken to buy, but I did it! I want the process to be my own, so I'm initiating all the steps and not relying on dh (the meat eater) to buy, wash, cook, etc.

And honestly, learning to cook again is fun! I'm just totally open right now. I don't want to limit myself at all so I'm kind of forcing myself to spread out and try the stuff that maybe intellectually sounds bad to me personally (like bacon or lamb, tho I can see why those might be good "first meats" for other post-veges), and I'm going to seek them out and at least give it a chance, trying not to carry any of my former food preferences into this. So maybe that means game meat which always sounded yucky, maybe I'll even try organ meat (tho I can't wrap my mind around that right now).

If I could describe how I feel right now about accepting this change, it would be "RELIEF" I just feel this huge release and like a weight has lifted off of me, though at the same time I do feel like it's an identity change? just coz being veg really was a big part of my life.

Anyway, I'm really glad that you are all here. Thanks for showing up on this thread


----------



## Keeta (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *craft_media_hero*
> If I could describe how I feel right now about accepting this change, it would be "RELIEF" I just feel this huge release and like a weight has lifted off of me, though at the same time I do feel like it's an identity change? just coz being veg really was a big part of my life.
> 
> Anyway, I'm really glad that you are all here. Thanks for showing up on this thread


I totally feel the same way! Super big relief but also a weird identity crisis. Being vegetarian for so long, it's understandable that it became such an integral part of my identity. So it's weird to take a step back from that. Doors closing, doors opening. It's all good.


----------



## simplyc (Jul 10, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *craft_media_hero*
> 
> If I could describe how I feel right now about accepting this change, it would be "RELIEF" I just feel this huge release and like a weight has lifted off of me, though at the same time I do feel like it's an identity change? just coz being veg really was a big part of my life.


Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Keeta*
> 
> I totally feel the same way! Super big relief but also a weird identity crisis. Being vegetarian for so long, it's understandable that it became such an integral part of my identity. So it's weird to take a step back from that. Doors closing, doors opening. It's all good.


YES!! I feel like with this one decision I am changing a big part of who I was...my family is going to kill me for all the years I wouldn't even eat non vegan birthday cake









When I did eat meat I ate it very infrequently and usually only chicken, so I feel that would be the easiest to try. I never consumed real bone broth and I find I'm craving it too!

Definitely a turn for me in our vegetarianism was all the soy we were eating- probably 2-3 servings a day. I've always strived for a whole food diet, and soy milk, tofu, and earth balance don't seem "whole foods" next to butter, whole milk, and organic chicken.

I turned veggie at 18 so I never purchased and cooked raw meat myself, I had no idea how expensive it would be after eating beans for so long! I definitely want to purchase organic, but local seems out of my range - $25-30 for a chicken? We usually spend under $200 a month on our groceries! If and when we do start eating meat, it will be very infrequently!


----------



## bodhitree (May 12, 2008)

I kind of know what you guys mean when you say you feel relief, but I'm not quite there yet myself. I'm still working on coming to terms with this enormous change, and I'm a bit worried about "coming out" to others. I expect to lose a few friends over it, which is sad, but these are the friends I haven't been fitting in with well anyway, I guess.

Here is a very interesting, very thoughtful blog post from a former vegan that I thought you all might be interested in. I'm also reading this book called the Vegetarian Myth, which I don't like quite as well (since the author pretty clearly hates humans) but is also thought-provoking.

Is it wrong that I'm hoping DH will be persuaded to join me in changing our diet? He is really inconsistent about which animal products he thinks are okay to eat and which aren't. Like, cheesy Cheetos are fine, eggs are disgusting. Milk and (normal, non junky) cheese are kind of gross, but gummy candy with animal gelatin is fine.







It doesn't even make any sense.

I bought some Niman Ranch bacon this morning. I'm not sure how long it will take me to get up the courage to eat it. But the store smelled like bacon when we were doing the shopping, and my mouth was watering.


----------



## Keeta (Jul 4, 2005)

Bodhitree, that VoraciousEats blog post is what started me thinking about the whole prospect of adding meat back to our diets. Between reading about all her issues with her health (and other former vegans saying similar things) I started to wonder if DH's stomach issues could be helped with adding animal protein. That was my initial entry point.

The more I've read, the more convinced I am that you can be healthy or unhealthy whatever diet you choose. You can be a junkfood vegan or an incredibly healthy traditional foods eating omnivore and everywhere in between. So I guess I really just made peace with that notion. And I also realized that meat consumption doesn't HAVE to necessarily be the bane of all environmentalism. I can be both an ethical eater and an environmentalist. Sure, it takes more effort. What worthwhile thing doesn't?


----------



## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

$25-30 for a chicken! Ridiculous! Have you checked out the localharvest and eatwild links? That's where I've been browsing, and my local farmers have chicken for about $3 a pound. My local hfs has organic chicken really out of my price range (like $20, and that would really only be about two dinners and a snack/lunch which I guess is not too bad compared to eating out costs), so I settled for local, "natural" (though I'm not sure what that means) free range, antibiotic and hormone free. I wonder what is the big difference between that and organic? Anyway, the chicken was about $7. I figure I can offset a lot of the cost by combining meat with other foods (like chicken quesadilla or chile w/ a little bit of ground beef instead of a giant steak, kwim?).

I hear you on a meat diet being so much more expensive than vegetarian . . . it's crazy! I've become really accustomed to our low grocery costs, and I'm kind of appalled at how much we would be spending if we ate meat frequently. Right now, I'm thinking seafood once a week (I just scored 10lbs of wild-caught salmon for $4/lb! and it's in the deep freeze) and then either beef/bison/red meat or chicken, alternating weekly. I'm pretty sure we can afford that, especially if we are able to buy in bulk by getting another family to split the cost with us, but that I'm still figuring out. Ideally, my hub would hunt and score us some quail instead of chicken, elk instead of beef. He's interested in hunting, but it takes a while to get good at it, so I won't be counting on that for food anytime soon.

bodhitree, I think it's totally natural that you'd want your dh to come along with you as you try new foods. I can't imagine what it must've been like for my dh to deal with a veg*n kitchen for years, he is apparently infinitely patient. Had he been negative or pressured me, I don't think I would have gotten to this place or felt very positive about having meat in our house. I guess just start small and really enjoy the food that you're cooking . . . I imagine that at some point, he will smell smth delicious and want to take a bite!

As far as "coming out" . . . yeah, I feel that, too. I guess I just am finding it hard because my family members gave me such a hard time for so long about being veg, and now they're going to give me a hard time for flip-flopping. I'm certain that people have pointedly not invited me to dinner because they couldn't fathom making a meatless meal, which still ticks me off! And also, I'm afraid that if I tell people, they're going to think that I'll just eat any old hot dog or Walmart meat, which is totally disgusting, and I'll still have to refuse at which point I'm still the family food snob. Sigh. Can't win! Just gotta do my own thing as usual. I think I'm going to keep it on the down low for a while esp. with certain people and then explain that I am an aspiring ethical locavore and that I can't eat factory meat. Blech!


----------



## bodhitree (May 12, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Keeta*
> 
> Bodhitree, that VoraciousEats blog post is what started me thinking about the whole prospect of adding meat back to our diets. Between reading about all her issues with her health (and other former vegans saying similar things) I started to wonder if DH's stomach issues could be helped with adding animal protein. That was my initial entry point.
> 
> The more I've read, the more convinced I am that you can be healthy or unhealthy whatever diet you choose. You can be a junkfood vegan or an incredibly healthy traditional foods eating omnivore and everywhere in between. So I guess I really just made peace with that notion. And I also realized that meat consumption doesn't HAVE to necessarily be the bane of all environmentalism. I can be both an ethical eater and an environmentalist. Sure, it takes more effort. What worthwhile thing doesn't?


Yeah, I think she makes an extremely persuasive case that for some people, it is necessary to eat animal products in order to be healthy. It completely goes against the veg*n party line, of course, but I'm persuaded that it's true. And there's the whole B12 issue, which tends to get swept under the rug with the idea that you can just take supplements. But in fact, supplements are poorly utilized in the body, and B12 is really important for optimal health. I just found a study that said that poor maternal B12 intake doubles the risk of congenital heart defects in babies, and actually my DD does have a CHD (minor, but still requiring monitoring by a ped cardiologist). So I just can't go along with the idea that if we would only all be vegans, we would be incredibly healthy. A vegan diet works well for some people, but it doesn't for others. And as you pointed out, there are lots of junkfood vegans, and that just is not a healthy diet.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *craft_media_hero*
> 
> $25-30 for a chicken! Ridiculous! Have you checked out the localharvest and eatwild links? That's where I've been browsing, and my local farmers have chicken for about $3 a pound. My local hfs has organic chicken really out of my price range (like $20, and that would really only be about two dinners and a snack/lunch which I guess is not too bad compared to eating out costs), so I settled for local, "natural" (though I'm not sure what that means) free range, antibiotic and hormone free. I wonder what is the big difference between that and organic? Anyway, the chicken was about $7. I figure I can offset a lot of the cost by combining meat with other foods (like chicken quesadilla or chile w/ a little bit of ground beef instead of a giant steak, kwim?).
> 
> ...


I'm also







at $25-30 for a chicken. There is a CSA here that sells organic pastured chickens for like $15 a piece. And one of the natural food stores has chicken (I think it is organic and local-ish) for $2/lb. But I know there are some areas of the country where things just cost more.

I'm also thinking we (DD and I) will eat meat or fish a couple times a week, although fish will probably not be too frequent because we are not anywhere near the ocean. But I guess I could relearn how to catch my own fish! Anyway, I do think the expense will be too much to handle if we eat it any more often than that.

Thanks for reminding me to think about the DH thing from the other side of it. I definitely don't want to be negative or pressure him. But I'm also not going to tolerate any kind of an attitude from him about it, either. I already got an "Ew!" response from him several times, and if he keeps giving me that response he will get an earful.







Not that he isn't allowed to have an opinion, but he really isn't allowed to act morally superior to me for eating meat when he knowingly eats animal gelatin, which is the same thing but in candy form.

I'm also worried about people expecting me to eat Walmart meat or hotdogs or whatever. But I guess I'll burn that bridge when I get to it.







I "came out" to my dad this morning, and he was awesome about it. He just reassured me that I would figure it out just fine. He is a hunter, so I'm hoping that sometime maybe I can get some venison from him or maybe even go hunting with him.

BTW I did eat the bacon. It was weird but okay. I'm still not used to this whole idea, but I'm getting there. I think next I might try fish.


----------



## northerngirl (Oct 6, 2006)

Hello ladies! I'm Heidi (34) and I was a vegetarian (although I hate that label) for uh...10ish years. When I met dh in 98' he was veg and slowly I became one too. I was young and would say that I ate a lot of bread and pasta. We still ate dairy and eggs. I wouldn't say we ate a lot of veggies at all. I was living far away from my hometown and this was my first time being out on my own. I didn't have a lot of cash and ended up eating a lot at my waitress jobs. We did have a small group of veg friends and we lived in a moderately big college city, so there were a lot of veg heads around and veg options at restaurants. Then we were introduced to the idea of organics and thought it fit with our thinking. Then a change came and we were engaged and we moved back to my hometown, a small city. We fell into a habit of eating a lot of soy, soymilk, tofu, and fake meat. When I was pregnant with dd1, now almost 5, I had dreams of eating meat. My midwife said that I should listen to those dreams but I didn't and just added more protein with nuts, dairy, eggs. It wasn't until after she was born that the dreams came back and I thought I need to do this, I need to eat some meat. Dh was supportive and I ended up buying a marinated chicken breast from our local health food store deli. The first bite was definitely strange, the texture was nothing that I could remember. I ate a couple of bites over the week. AND I was fine. I did not have the sort of rxn that I had been thinking about....vomiting, stomachache, constipation....(although TMI my poo smelled different). It did just feel right.

So I ended up getting a chicken breast this way every other week or so. But no other meat. I did think about fish but dh is allergic so....yeah. So that went on for less than a year and I gradually just stopped eating it for some reason I cannot remember. Then in 2008 I decided to do something about the way I was feeling healthwise. I was SO tired all the time. I had lots of nausea and dizziness. What the hell was wrong with me. After getting thyroid and adrenal tests from the doctor and those ending up normal I went to a natropath that suggested an IgG test for foods. There were only a few foods that were listed that I reacted to: wheat, gluten, radishes, oysters and cranberries. Granted the wheat and gluten were low the natropath suggested that I remove that and see how I feel. This was going to be HARD as that was pretty much what I was eating. Also at this time we were TTC dd2. I took out the gluten and I definitely felt better. And just after a week of not eating gluten I ate pizza or something and totally noticed a few hours later that I was SO fricken tired and wanted to take a nap. So I decided to cut back on the gluten but not entirely. By this time I was pregnant. After the first trimester ickys passed I started eating chicken again. Dh would cook it for me as I was freaked out that I was going to get salmonella from touching the raw chicken. I was eating a lot of eggs and a lot of dairy during this pregnancy trying to stay away from wheat, while getting enough protein from not eating tons of meat.

Then dd2 was born and about a week after her birth she started having mucus in her poop. Well she had juice and mucus, no curds of a breastfed baby. I took out dairy, wheat, nuts, corn, soy. At this point things changed drastically I knew that without dairy and wheat and soy products I needed to eat more meat. Dh was on board and said that he would eat it with me too. I was relieved as this meant we didn't have to do so many different meals. Although we do still some times.

Since then dd2 is now almost 1 and I eat chicken many times a week. Dd1 has just in the past couple of months started to eat chicken too. Her first was in wild rice soup and the chicken was all shredded and she didn't even know. Then one time there was a larger chunk and she asked what it was and I told her chicken and she said oh it's good. Now just last week she tried a chicken strip we made gf. She loved it. I did take her a while to get to this point, us asking "you want to try a bite" and her replying "I don't like chicken, I'm going to eat it when I'm 7". So cute.

I do want to eat other types of meat. I think. I really want fish, but I guess I stick with canned tuna for now. I've tried turkey a couple of times and I didn't feel so well afterwards. Bacon kinda had the same effect. Then there is beef. Don't know if I could do it...right now.

This has gotten very long and I've lost my steam...time for bed.
I look forward to chatting more.

**I needed to edit midway bc I lost my train of thought and was getting things/events mixed up


----------



## bodhitree (May 12, 2008)

Heidi, that's been my experience too, that having to cut out a bunch of foods due to intolerances is making it next to impossible for me to remain veg. DD has issues with dairy and gluten among other things, and it turns out I can't handle corn. I just don't think we're getting a wide enough variety of foods in our diet. And eating the same foods all the time is going to lead to more intolerances anyway.

For those who are eating meat already, how long did it take for you to get used to it? It is still just so weird to me.


----------



## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

I am 27 and Ive been vegetarian on and off since I was 11. I had an aversion to dairy products when I was 10 because I drank some sour cows milk. I started substitution soy milk and from there just kind of stopped eating meat too. I broke my veg at 18 and ate white meat until I was 20. I have been vegetarian since I was 20, with a few pieces of fish here and there while I was pregnant. I was vegan once for three days. -I love my cheese  I live in a rural community where the local food movement is becoming huge. My next door neighbor raises beef cattle and uncaged veal. I have a lot of wonderful, sustainable, farmers around me that sell my husband local meat, and Ive eaten it a few times! It was so delicious and I felt great afterwards. Im ready to say that Im no longer a vegetarian, but I still only eat local, hormone free meat.


----------



## Anna06 (Jul 4, 2005)

Subbing...............a subject near and dear to my heart.


----------



## Koalamom (Dec 27, 2007)

Interesting Northern Girl. I had a dream when I was pregnant with my dd and it was pretty profound. I had been a veg*n for almost 8 years and I was weak and sickly by the time I was trying to get pregnant. I felt sickly all the time and had fertility issues. I them M/Ced and when I got pregnant with my dd shortly after, I didn't even know I was pregnant and I had an angelic being come to me in a dream that took me to a fork in the road and said I had to pick a road and said "If you want your child to survive, you must start eating meat." It was very profound and I woke up and took a pregnancy test and it was positive. I slowly introduced meat and it was hard but now I am so glad I did as I had the morning sickness only go away after eating meat everyday.


----------



## northerngirl (Oct 6, 2006)

Wow that's crazy. I can't remember right now but I did have "eating meat" dreams probably once a week. At that time too I was thinking more about eating real food instead of "fake" meat products, soy products and packaged foods in general. And while I knew that my body was craving the meat I also knew that I was going to be VERY picky about what meat I was going to eat ie not factory farmed. It was hard "coming" out to my parents and other family because I knew they would give me a hard time about it. And in most instances at family functions I will still be veggie because I know that the quality of the meat is...(this sounds bad)....not up to my standards. But I am that way with other foods too. I want to know where it's from, what's in it, how it will help/hurt my body and my children's body. Dd waking....


----------



## Earthy Birthy (Sep 26, 2004)

Thank you for starting this thread, Jes, and the other one that started this discussion too. I can identify with so much of what you all are saying.

I have been a lacto-ovo vegetarian for more than 17 years--over half my life. For the past few years I have been questioning my food choices, and feeling like I might want to add some meat back into my diet. I've gone so far as to buy a whole, locally raised organic chicken, but then I found it so intimidating that I just let it sit in my freezer until it finally had to be thrown out due to severe freezer burn.







Vegetarianism feels like such a big part of my identity; it feels weird and very uncomfortable to contemplate change. However, I really feel like it is something that I have to do at this point in my life. I realized about three or four years ago that my vegetarianism really grew out of an eating disorder that I was hospitalized for as a teenager. I transferred controlling my intake of food for controlling the type of food that I ate--totally not a healthy way to become vegetarian. Blah, blah, blah... Struggling to get enough protein while pregnant... Filling up on veggies and carbs and still being constantly hungry... Watching my weight go up and up and up... My body has been crying out to me for so long that something has to change. I think that it is time I finally listened.

We are moving to another state soon, and I see this as an opportunity to make the change to being an omnivore. Like most of you have said, I want to be very conscientious in my food choices, and I am excited to be moving to an area that has many more options and opportunities to support local sustainable farming and agriculture. My next step is seeing a nutritionist who will hopefully help me build a realistic meal plan that helps me slowly add meat back into my diet. Wish me luck!


----------



## bodhitree (May 12, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bluebirdmama1*
> 
> Interesting Northern Girl. I had a dream when I was pregnant with my dd and it was pretty profound. I had been a veg*n for almost 8 years and I was weak and sickly by the time I was trying to get pregnant. I felt sickly all the time and had fertility issues. I them M/Ced and when I got pregnant with my dd shortly after, I didn't even know I was pregnant and I had an angelic being come to me in a dream that took me to a fork in the road and said I had to pick a road and said "If you want your child to survive, you must start eating meat." It was very profound and I woke up and took a pregnancy test and it was positive. I slowly introduced meat and it was hard but now I am so glad I did as I had the morning sickness only go away after eating meat everyday.


Wow, that's amazing! I guess you got a pretty clear message about what your body needed.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> I am 27 and Ive been vegetarian on and off since I was 11. I had an aversion to dairy products when I was 10 because I drank some sour cows milk. I started substitution soy milk and from there just kind of stopped eating meat too. I broke my veg at 18 and ate white meat until I was 20. I have been vegetarian since I was 20, with a few pieces of fish here and there while I was pregnant. I was vegan once for three days. -I love my cheese  I live in a rural community where the local food movement is becoming huge. My next door neighbor raises beef cattle and uncaged veal. I have a lot of wonderful, sustainable, farmers around me that sell my husband local meat, and Ive eaten it a few times! It was so delicious and I felt great afterwards. Im ready to say that Im no longer a vegetarian, but I still only eat local, hormone free meat.


I'm a little jealous that you're in such a local-food friendly area. We have that stuff here, it's just a little harder to find it, I think. Plus the climate where I live is really dry, so that makes it good for some kinds of local food and not so good for others.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Earthy Birthy*
> 
> Thank you for starting this thread, Jes, and the other one that started this discussion too. I can identify with so much of what you all are saying.
> 
> ...


It sounds like you see very clearly how you got where you are and what changes you need to make. But it can be hard to follow through, even when you know you need to do it! And I know what you mean about vegetarianism feeling like a big part of your identity. In my mind I've started to think of it as similar to leaving a religion that you've been a part of for a long time: you have to wonder who you are without that way of thinking about the world, and it just feels like a really big change. I'm actually starting to feel a bit better about it--I went over to dinner at my friend's house last night (chicken and rice, yum!) and that helped, probably because that particular friend has absolutely zero investment in whether I eat meat or not. It was really relaxing. 

I've also been thinking about the ways in which I am still very much the same person, even if I eat meat now. I still care about the same things, I've just realized that my goals and values are actually better served by being a conscientious omnivore than by being a vegetarian.


----------



## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

Wow, bluebirdmama, your re-telling of your dream gave me shivers!

bodhitree-- I am about 2 wks in to meat eating and feeling off and on about the "weirdness" factor. Honestly, I am just making myself do it when I have the cringe-ies about it because I feel so strongly that I need it for my health! I have found that masking the meat in smth else really helps, like having a burrito with chicken in it instead of just carving into a chicken breast.

Today I cooked pinto beans in chicken bone broth, and the resulting beans and bean/chicken broth are amazing! I will be using the leftover broth for cooking soaked rice or maybe starting some bread dough? I have been adding bread products back in for ease of my lifestyle, but I am just really feeling kind of repugnant toward them, and I think that's a message from my body saying to lay off . . . I feel like my optimum diet would be primarily fresh organic vegetables, a little animal protein, and some really high quality whole grains or legumes (like quinoa, brown rice, lentils) in moderation. It's interesting how adding meat back in my diet has affected me by turning me even deeper toward really high quality whole foods!

We tried a buffalo and root stew in the crockpot, and it was really good! Dh and I both liked the buffalo meat (neither of us had ever tried it), so we are probably going to order some from a Colorado (that's my home!) source. I am the queen of freezer hoarding, so I want enough for like ten stews now that I know it's a hit in my family.

I still have to say that bone broth is the most nourishing animal food that I've encountered so far. I think that I could make it a major part of my diet and really thrive off of whole grains/legumes cooked in bone broth, and dark green leafies









On a related note, I totally over-strained my back building up the beds in my first real garden these last two days! I have big plans to be nourished from the earth and spend lots of time in the sunlight this growing and harvest season! If I can swing it, we are going to try for yard hens this summer--dd has said that she would eat them as long as she didn't have to see them die, eek, and I am totally willing to do the cooking if dh will do the dirty work . . . but I don't know if we'll have the resources to put up a little coop this summer. I am really glad that dd is positive about this change--I was afraid for a while that I had passed on warped food control issues to her!

EarthyBirthy, I can relate to what you're saying abt your veg*nism stemming from past eating disorders. I have used food control as a coping mechanism at many different times in my life and have worked reallllly hard to develop a positive relationship with my food and not stop eating/vomit/whatever when I feel emotionally bad. I've never been diagnosed with and ED, but I recognize those tendencies in myself.

I'm all about healing with this transition in my life---letting go of my former ideas/preferences/lifeways and just really wrapping myself up in the nourishment that Mother Earth provides! For me, I'm returning to my roots coz I grew up on my grandma's farm where she raised the majority of her own food---I have this childhood memory of waking up after breaking a fever from a bad illness, sitting on my mom's knee and just DEVOURING this juicy pastured steak from grandma's field---just knowing and feeling that food go into my body and healing me, my body craving that nourishment--I remember the grownups at the table commenting wow how I was putting away that steak. I keep recalling that memory--that's how I feel right now.










GTG tuck dd in to bed,

Jes


----------



## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bodhitree*
> 
> I know what you mean about vegetarianism feeling like a big part of your identity. In my mind I've started to think of it as similar to leaving a religion that you've been a part of for a long time: you have to wonder who you are without that way of thinking about the world, and it just feels like a really big change.


Yes, totally! For so long, it was, "I'm Jes, a vegetarian" like how people would define themselves based on their religion. It's hard. I haven't come out to dh's family coz they totally don't get the difference btwn ethical meat and factory farming, yuck! When I was veg, I thought 'how could you gain positive nourishment from eating a being that suffered it's entire existence?' and I still think that in a way, you take on that creature's being---I think that consuming a free animal that was hunted or happy livestock that really did get the best life possible is going to affect your body totally differently than eating an animal that has lived sickly in darkness and filth it's whole life--that's JMO.

I am a major foodie at heart--I'm definitely hanging on to that part of my identity. And I am really enjoying the challenge ahead with locavore-ism. While on the context of religion/belief systems, I have been thinking about how Buddhists or the Buddha are not necessarily by nature vegetarian; they gratefully receive whatever nourishment is given . . . I am trying to practice that kind of non-attachment toward my food--it matters less that it's meatless and more that it's nourishing.

Okay, really gtg now  <3 to all!


----------



## Koalamom (Dec 27, 2007)

I so was identified by my crazy picky vegetarian diet and my family all "converted" to vegetarianism when I did and when I changed, I was so embarrassed. Now they consider me the rebel.


----------



## northerngirl (Oct 6, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bodhitree*
> 
> Wow, that's amazing! I guess you got a pretty clear message about what your body needed.
> 
> ...


Like this! Although I am not religious at all in any mainstream way. I sorta feel like I use to view eating meat (meat eaters) through a very narrow lens. A lens that showed animal cruelty, antibiotics, sickness and people with health problems. But over the last few years I have seen through a different lens that did not show those things and in my mind I started to become ok with eating meat (that and the dreams). I also have a friend who is in her 50's who was veggie for a very long time and she to now eats meat. She said she felt like her body was shutting down and I can't remember if she had dreams or had a vision that her body needed meat. And she thought given her ancestry (part native american? or something) that her body was designed to be omniverous (sp?). I think she mainly was eating fish and then some chicken. Her heath rebounded once she added meat back in. I was really glad to have her around for someone to talk things through when I was contemplating adding meat back in. She and her husband have a farm near here with lots of happy animals and I feel so good eating eggs from her chickens. I know they were cared for and loved. She told me that she still has a hard time when it's time for the chicken's end, she says a prayer to thank the animal and the earth.

Craft_media_hero....I am wanting to make some bone broth (first time). How do I go about that. I have some thigh/leg bones from when I made chick/rice soup in the freezer. Do you use a crock pot?


----------



## carfreemama (Jun 13, 2007)

Just stumbled on this thread and wanted to mention something else.

I have been on this journey for a while, after being vegetarian/vegan for over 7 years. My attitudes have evolved over time.

What is the nicest of all is the FREEDOM. I can choose and I can change my choices as I see fit. No more guilt.

This was especially important to me, as I have been struggling with bulimia since I was 15. Vegetarianism absolutely did not cause my eating disorder. HOWEVER, I always craved meat. My choice to be vegetarian was strictly from an animal cruelty perspective. As long as I was only around other vegetarians, it was okay. I loved that food and still do. But when I met dh, who is clearly NOT ever going to be vegetarian, the meat was around me and I WANTED it.

Food restrictions+bulimia+guilt=purging. That was the equation for me and once I finally saw that, I started my recovery for real.

Nothing, absolutely nothing, is off-limits anymore. And I have a relationship with food that is so positive that others comment on it. I eat until I feel full. I delight in food. I cook a lot.

I'm another one who has always been skinny, had a hard time keeping on weight. Always very healthy, but thin and anxious. Eating meat has not solved all my problems, it just took away an enormous psychic burden. I don't think I ever want to label myself again. I am very, very involved in local food culture and I am so excited to see meat CSAs beginning to take off. FTR, local organic chickens run about $26 or so here, too, in Nova Scotia.

I am also blood type O negative. I read the blood type diet with interest. Not sure if it's coincidental, but it did add another layer of validation to my eating-meat process.

FTR, through, I do accept factory-farmed meat when I'm at my mother's or in-laws' house. I dunno. I eat other stuff when it's available; but if I'm over there and I'm hungry, I eat.

This is such a wonderful thread.


----------



## bodhitree (May 12, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *craft_media_hero*
> 
> We tried a buffalo and root stew in the crockpot, and it was really good! Dh and I both liked the buffalo meat (neither of us had ever tried it), so we are probably going to order some from a Colorado (that's my home!) source. I am the queen of freezer hoarding, so I want enough for like ten stews now that I know it's a hit in my family.
> 
> ...


I want to try buffalo too! I'm in Colorado and was excited to see that there is a local-ish buffalo ranch.

I like the way you put that about healing and nourishment. I also feel like I'm returning to my roots. I come from farming folks, and I remember the chickens and goats that lived at my grandparents' house. And my family even had backyard chickens for a while when I was a kid. So it's no wonder that I have all these homesteading ambitions! I've concluded that you can take the girl out of the country, but you can't take the country out of the girl (at least, if the girl is me







).

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *craft_media_hero*
> 
> I am a major foodie at heart--I'm definitely hanging on to that part of my identity. And I am really enjoying the challenge ahead with locavore-ism. While on the context of religion/belief systems, I have been thinking about how Buddhists or the Buddha are not necessarily by nature vegetarian; they gratefully receive whatever nourishment is given . . . I am trying to practice that kind of non-attachment toward my food--it matters less that it's meatless and more that it's nourishing.


I'm actually a practicing Buddhist, and I've been thinking about that quite a bit during this transition. I took Buddhist vows, and one of them was not to kill. So what does that mean for me? I think I'm ready to acknowledge that there is no living without killing. None. We can't eat rocks! And even if you live off of plants, animals are killed by machinery and pesticides in the fields, and their habitat is destroyed to create those fields. So for me as a Buddhist, I think gratefully receiving the nourishment that's available to me is key, and I also think that it's important to be mindful and compassionate and grateful of the lives that are lost so that I can live.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *carfreemama*
> 
> Just stumbled on this thread and wanted to mention something else.
> 
> ...


I'm so inspired by the way you have healed your relationship with food. I've been on that journey myself for a good long time, although for me it was more about plain old binge eating and body hating than bulimia. I'm in a better place now than ever before--I accept my body the way it is, I don't often eat to deal with emotions, and I don't obsess about trying to be thin. In fact, today I discovered I had lost five pounds in the last month and I was actually kind of upset about it (because it is another indicator to me that I'm not getting enough nutrition on my current diet, restricted because of my DD's food allergies).


----------



## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *northerngirl*
> 
> Craft_media_hero....I am wanting to make some bone broth (first time). How do I go about that. I have some thigh/leg bones from when I made chick/rice soup in the freezer. Do you use a crock pot?


Well, I just kinda gleaned how to off of the TF thread--basically take the bones, cover with water and a splash of vinegar (to help the bones break down so you get more of the nutrients into the broth), add part of an onion, a carrot, handful of herbs (last three optional for flavor); I guess you can add egg shells, too, and whole garlic cloves, whatever vegetable cuttings you have that are not spoiled, bring to a boil in a big pot. Once it all begins to boil, reduce heat to low (I use the lowest setting on my stove) and simmer for 8+ hrs. I have been leaving it on the lowest setting and letting it simmer overnight and then some of the morning. The bones will kind of crumble or mush down when it's done.

I think I need to either let mine cook down more or use more bones, because you are supposed to get kind of a broth jello after it's cooled in the fridge.

bodhitree--we keep posting at the same time!

going to post more but baby is awake now, peace.


----------



## carfreemama (Jun 13, 2007)

It's a surprisingly natural-feeling shift from vegetarian/vegan to TF, for me at least. I thought they were so far apart, especially philosophically.

I really wish I could figure out more objectively whether being vegan; if we're talking about mostly local, unprocessed foods, really is superior environmentally. I read the blog that was linked and I think she's right on target about the animals she has access to in Saudi Arabia; but here in Nova Scotia, I'm not so sure. There's a ton of really rich agricultura land being mostly sacrificed to development.

Regardless, though, for myself on a mental level I really can't afford dietary restrictions. This was the single biggest revelation to me in healing my bulimia. For that reason, I can't participate in fasts or cleanses, either. They just trigger my otherwise almost completely dormant eating disorder. I can go from not thinking about it for months to purging within 24 hours of trying to restrict my intake. I would like to get past this stage, though. There was some sort of political fast going on last year for example; I think the 3-day hunger challenge or something. That's for another thread, but I'd like to be able to make those choices again someday. And there may be a day when my bulimia history feels like a copout. But it was absolutely the biggest thing holding me back from getting all the way better and there is zero point to purging vegetarian food in the name of animal rights. A lot of people talk about the joy of just eating and that's how I feel. What a huge relief. I make better choices about food when I don't feel guilty.

The buffalo root stew sounds so amazing. I want to try it! There's a meat CSA starting here that includes goose and rabbit. I want it, dh and dd don't; so I'm going to pay for it myself! What beautiful food.


----------



## rockergirrl (Nov 19, 2001)

Hi everyone! My story is similar to many of the other posts. I was a vegetarian for almost 20 years and brought up both of my sons to eat that way as well. Recently however I started eating meat again. I am fortunate to live in an area where we have lots of local food (both veggies and meat) available to us year round. I suddenly found myself choosing local apples (even if they weren't certified organic) over organic apples flown in from another country. I found myself eating more seasonally and with this came a shift with eating meat. I felt like my diet was filled with too many soy products and wasn't as balanced as it could be. So one day (much to my meat eating husbands surprise) I bought some local organic chicken and cooked it up for dinner. It has been several months now of this new way of eating and I am still on the fence about it. Like many of the other replies it has been weird letting go of the identity of being a vegetarian. So far I have been easing into it slowly. I'll only buy local meat and I have to cook it myself. What surprised me the most was the reaction of my meat eating friends and family. I think my mother actually said to me "oh good I'm so glad you are eating meat again." The reactions of people are funny.


----------



## bodhitree (May 12, 2008)

Ugh, I cannot for the life of me get multi-quote to work! Carfreemama, as far as sustainability issues, if I understand correctly, the most sustainable agriculture includes animals pretty much wherever you are, right? If you're using the land to grow plants for people to eat, you have to add fertility back into the soil somehow. As far as I can tell, the options are: 1) Fertilizers derived from fossil fuels. 2) Fertilizers derived from animals in various forms--manure, bone meal, blood meal, fish emulsion, etc. 3) Compost and "green manure" i.e. cover crops, which takes much more land because you have to let cover crops grow on the land, reducing its availability for growing food.

Rockergirrl, do you feel like you're getting used to it at all? I've been eating eggs for several weeks now, and that's starting to seem more normal to me, but the meat is still freaking me out a bit.

I roasted a chicken today. Eating it was okay, but preparing it made me realize how paranoid I am about food safety with cooking meat. It probably goes back to ideas of meat contaminating my food when I was still veg--like if my veggie burger was cooked on the same part of the grill as meat burgers, I felt like my food would be contaminated somehow, even though obviously it would be perfectly safe to eat. It's almost like an OCD kind of thing. I feel like I'm having trouble saying what I mean. Do I sound like a total crazy person?


----------



## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

Bodhitree, not totally crazy 

I have always been salmonella/etc. paranoid, too, and I think less so with plant foods but still! I can practically see the meat germ aura emanating from the counters when cooking, lol. I have just been pushing through it like all the other meat issues.

It feels like it's getting more natural here to be cooking/eating meat foods. Previously, everything has been delicious, well-cooked, etc. but we had our first mushy overcooked chicken and that was kind of hard to stomach---I just mixed it up with mayo and we had chick salad sammiches for a couple days.

I have been seriously craving some bbq ribs but haven't yet worked up to eating meat directly off of the bone.







Sounds good, though.

I am so grateful for my ever-patient husband. Sigh. He is so great about understanding that I need to work up to things and can't just go from zero to salami, kwim?

I am glad to hear that others have found the transition fro veg to TF easy. I'm trying to psych myself up about buying some bulk local meat here---though I don't think I'll go back to veg, and I'm sure we'll eat it, buying a freezer full seems like such a huge commitment.

I still haven't "come out" to most folks. I can't get over the idea that they will be irritated that I'm not into hot dogs or "low-grade" meat or whatever. My hub totally understands, but I don't think most folks who never "got" my veg*nism will understand and just be even more scoffy about my food snobbery! I'm sorry! I have food issues!







On the flip side, I have gotten a disappointed vibe from some health-conscious meat-eaters that I think were previously kind of inspired? Oh well, can't please 'em!

ITA with what rocker said abt local over organic, though....I would take local farm meat over shipped in organic, which is why I think we'll end up doing 1/4 local pastured beef or similar.

DS 7mo had his first meat the other day---super cute! We had grilled salmon and gave him a crispy piece, he seemed to really like it and gummed it down.







On that note, I am glad that there will be no conflict btwn dh and I abt whether ds will be raised veg or not---I actually had anxiety about this while pregnant.

Hope everyone is well and happy and eating delicious food! I am uninspired for dinner here . . . not sure how to proceed tonight







No thawed chicken or the like, and I am totally burnt on quesadillas--I'm kind of in a cooking slump. I'm thinking about doing my first non-veg menu plan--anyone want to share ideas? For like a semi-veg menu that can use meat cooked once as planned leftovers for one or more other meals in the week. I'm also trying to ease off of processed grains coz I notice some serious bloating







after eating bread-type products.\\

I can't wait for summer!! Fresh veggies!! Yum!! CSA, here I come  I am looking forward to "real" kebabs.

Well I better stop







and do something productive tonight.

For the newbie meat eaters like me, what previously "off-limits" food are your craving or looking forward to? Mine has gotta be the ribs and kebabs.


----------



## bodhitree (May 12, 2008)

Thanks, Jes, that makes me feel better. And I had to LOL at "meat germ aura" because yes, that's an accurate description of what I'm talking about.









I remember BBQ ribs as being delish! I'm not quiiiiite ready for that yet either, but that day will come, I'm sure. For me, the previously off-limits things that I'm most excited about are actually mostly things that contain eggs and dairy, since I wasn't buying or cooking with eggs or real dairy for a long long time. But then, most of the things I really want to make (like luscious desserts!) also contain other stuff that I can't have right now due to DD's food sensitivities. Oh well, fancy desserts will still exist later on, and I can have them then! I wouldn't say I'm too excited about any kind of meat right now, but I am slowly getting used to it, and it's definitely helping me feel much better. My strong meat cravings have subsided, and I'm interpreting that to mean that by eating meat and eggs I'm getting the nutrients I was missing out on before. I've been reading a lot about all of the vitamins that are really hard to get without animal products, and while it makes me feel sad that I shortchanged myself (and my daughter!







) in terms of nutrition for so long, I am excited that my health could improve a whole lot as a result of going through this process. I'm even hoping that my fingernails will quit being so fragile, and maybe my acne will finally go away--I'm almost 33, it would be nice to have clear skin.









For a meal plan, what I did this time was roast a chicken and keep the leftovers so bits can be added to other meals. DD and I ate some of it the night I roasted it, then the next day I used some more of it along with leftover rice and asparagus to make some amazing fried rice. I'm also going to make black bean and sweet potato lettuce wraps and probably figure out a way to season some of the chicken and add it to DD's and my wraps so DH's can stay veggie.

DD is waking up, more later...


----------



## SandraMort (Jun 19, 2003)

I apologize in advance for the messed up formatting. I'm having some issues on this end and while I'm sure my husband could fix them without blinking his eyes, I'm not familiar enough with ubuntu (or patient enough) to figure it out. And I'm sorry for the length of this thing... it sort of grew.

I'm 41 years old. During my 20's, I became vegan (on a dare, no less!) and stayed vegan without cheating for 4 years. Then my dh (then bf) and I compromised - I'd stop whining about missing dairy and start eating dairy and eggs and he'd meet me halfway by giving up meat. Other than times of extreme stress, he's never cheated, and even then it was fish. I, on the other hand, lapsed during my second child's pregnancy near the end, then again with our third child and never went back to being vegetarian after that. It's not something I'm enjoying, unlike Keeta's orgasmic moaning when she eats it. Sometimes it's literally a matter of forcing myself to think about something else while eating to choke it down. Other times, though, if I've been low on meat protein for a while, the cravings are so fierce that I can inhale obscene amounts of meat before I start to feel human again. It literally is a physical sensation and a rather unpleasant one.

Mostly, though, my husband and I have realized that my moods and my ability to control my temper are the first place we notice when I'm not eating enough meat. And it seems to require a lot more meat in my diet than I (or my budget!) are happy with. If I'm eating some meat daily, I can do the recommended 3-4 ounce servings without too much trouble. If I'm skipping days, I need more like 8 ounces. The other day, I haven't a clue when I'd last eaten meat, I demolished a 1.3lb rib eye steak and only stopped because the rest was in the freezer and I had to deal with a baby. If I'd cooked two, I'd have eaten more than one without blinking. An average sized chicken, if I'm eating regularly, will usually be 4-6 meals plus bones for broth, but if I've been skipping meals? Then it's 2 plus broth. I feel SUCH shame about this, tied in with my weight issues. I can't help feeling like I don't deserve to eat. I know, all messed up. But since adding in the coconut oil and moving to whole fat dairy, I'm starting to lose some weight without changing much else. Not a LOT, but my pants are definitely looser.

At this point in time, none of the rest of the members of my family have any interest in giving up being vegetarian. My nine year old asked to taste the pastured lamb that I was eating and I let him. He managed to swallow without throwing up... barely. I don't think he'll be asking again anytime soon.

When I gave up meat, it didn't help me save money because I bought so many fabulous vegetables, fruits and grains, but now that I've got picky kids, our diet's become painfully boring and adding meat (especially humanely raised) is expensive!

I recognize that bone broth is good for me, especially because I need it for helping my back injury, but I have trouble choking it down. I can't comprehend the idea that cooking rice and beans in broth makes them taste better - to me, it just seems like the meat flavor overpowers the yummy bean and rice flavors with the meat flavor. I really need to be eating broth daily and struggle with it. I've got frozen bones from beef, pork and lamb in my freezer, but find myself making broth from supermarket chicken bones because it's milder tasting. And even then, I think I've only done it two or three times this winter. Hardly the daily I need to be doing!

I'd love to say, like many of you, that I only eat ethically sourced meat. When I can afford to, I buy locally grown pastured meat and free range eggs, but sometimes I just can't afford it. While I think those factory farms are evil, I need to be able to take care of my kids in the meantime. So I do the best I can. Right now, I've got a freezer full of a mix - pastured lamb and pork, beef from a high end supermarket that probably uses factory farms but has a high enough turnover so that the meat is always fresh smelling (unlike the supermarket), applegate farms bacon, and chicken from the supermarket that wasn't as fresh as I'd like and definitely from a factory farm. Ideally, I'd never buy from the supermarket, high end or otherwise, but I'm just doing my best and that'll have to do.

I really struggle with the lost identity thing, especially since dh and the kids are all still ovolacto. The kids really don't understand why I'm eating it. I don't generally cook myself food at the same time as theirs plus end up so busy helping the little ones eat that I can't eat myself, so I usually end up eating dinner after they go to bed. This isn't much fun and I hate eating alone but it just keeps happening that way no matter how I schedule it.

I'm very jealous of people who can get affordable humane poultry. I can get reasonably priced mammal, but birds all seem to cost a fortune around here. I guess it's offset by the insanely cheap prices I pay for milk ($4/gallon) and eggs ($2/dozen). Since six of us eat those and only one of us eats poultry, it's probably better that way for our family.

Northerngirl - I hear you on the elimination diet. My third had awful allergies. At one point, and for three months, I was eating grassfed beef, grapes and summer squash, nothing else. BOY was that fun! SIGH. I was eating over a pound of beef a day! Talk about boring.


----------



## SandraMort (Jun 19, 2003)

Doesn't sound crazy to me. Then again, I'm not the picture of sanity 



> Originally Posted by *bodhitree*
> 
> I roasted a chicken today. Eating it was okay, but preparing it made me realize how paranoid I am about food safety with cooking meat. It probably goes back to ideas of meat contaminating my food when I was still veg--like if my veggie burger was cooked on the same part of the grill as meat burgers, I felt like my food would be contaminated somehow, even though obviously it would be perfectly safe to eat. It's almost like an OCD kind of thing. I feel like I'm having trouble saying what I mean. Do I sound like a total crazy person?


----------



## SandraMort (Jun 19, 2003)

Yeah. That's where I am. I'm not veg but dh and the kids are. Dh backs me 100% but the kids aren't happy about it.

Sandra

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bluebirdmama1*
> 
> I so was identified by my crazy picky vegetarian diet and my family all "converted" to vegetarianism when I did and when I changed, I was so embarrassed. Now they consider me the rebel.


----------



## SandraMort (Jun 19, 2003)

Replies to page two:

LOLing at the "meat germ aura" as well. I SO totally understand!!! It's hard to eat something that I consider a "contaminant".

I remember the first time I ate meat off the bone after being vegetarian for years. It was HARD! It's still hard sometimes.

I sympathize with the effort of eating meat and not contaminating the rest of the food.

The "oh good I'm so glad you are eating meat again." drove me *NUTS*. Especially the whispered comments badmouthing vegetarianism. PEOPLE, WAKE UP. I'm not eating meat because I think it's delicious. I'm not eating meat because I think my husband and kids are wrong. I'm *NOT* eating meat so I'm interested in hearing jokes about eating dead animals. I appreciate any of that, thank you very much! And if I could be vegetarian tomorrow and feel healthy, I would without looking back.

Sandra


----------



## SandraMort (Jun 19, 2003)

Uhhh. I DON'T appreciate any of that.

Sandra

Quote:


> I appreciate any of that, thank you very much! And if I could be vegetarian tomorrow and feel healthy, I would without looking back.


----------



## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SandraMort*





> When I gave up meat, it didn't help me save money because I bought so many fabulous vegetables, fruits and grains, but now that I've got picky kids, our diet's become painfully boring and adding meat (especially humanely raised) is expensive!
> 
> I recognize that bone broth is good for me, especially because I need it for helping my back injury, but I have trouble choking it down. I can't comprehend the idea that cooking rice and beans in broth makes them taste better - to me, it just seems like the meat flavor overpowers the yummy bean and rice flavors with the meat flavor. I really need to be eating broth daily and struggle with it. I've got frozen bones from beef, pork and lamb in my freezer, but find myself making broth from supermarket chicken bones because it's milder tasting. And even then, I think I've only done it two or three times this winter. Hardly the daily I need to be doing!
> 
> ...


SandraMort, I'm glad you found us! I hope you stick around!


----------



## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SandraMort*
> 
> And if I could be vegetarian tomorrow and feel healthy, I would without looking back.





> Sandra


Me too! I wasn't able to--I stuck with veg while I could, and then I just felt like my health was drawing off of my reserves for so long until finally I was tapped out. I had just one big health crisis (basically my last two years of school consisted of too much sleep deprivation and numerous major oral surgeries into my jaw under anesthesia and living in some pretty unhealthy rentals then pregnancy then the birth now breastfeeding, and getting sick over and over throughout) after another and that I really needed the extra nutrients from meat in order to get my constitution back.

The bone broth was making a big difference--I better get back on that! Maybe I will try roasting a chicken--I have heard of a pretty good recipe involving cinnamon, but now I can't find it--allrecipes, here I come


----------



## bodhitree (May 12, 2008)

Welcome Sandra! I meant to respond to some of what you said before this, but life has been crazy lately for me. I'm not even going to bother messing around with multi-quote, so hopefully my responses will be coherent.







I agree with Jes, just do the best you can as far as being able to afford ethical meat. You also have an ethical obligation to take care of your own health, and right now that means you need to be eating meat, so just do what you can and don't worry too much about it! And you DO have a right to eat what you need in order to feel good mentally and physically. Weight has nothing to do with it. You don't have to be at a certain weight before you get to feel like you deserve nourishment. You don't have to earn that---it's part of your inherent worth as a human being. If I sound like I feel strongly about that, it's because I do.







It's taken me a long time to learn to be on my own side regardless of my weight, so please excuse my mini-rant.

I've been struggling with the meat thing a lot. It would be a lot easier if DH ate meat too because it would open up a lot of options in terms of meal planning and doing more TF stuff. I feel like I need to learn to like meat, but it's hard to do that when I don't know how to cook or eat it and the only other adult in my household is all like, "Ew!" I would love to try drastically decreasing grains and mostly eating veggies, fruit, meat, and eggs, but I'm not sure how to do that when I also have to cook for DH. I'm still not feeling great physically, and I probably should try eating quite a bit more meat, but I feel totally stuck. I don't know, I'm so confused about what to do next. I think I need a meat mentor. My parents will be coming to visit in a couple weeks, so maybe I can get my dad to teach me to cook (and enjoy!) steak.


----------



## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bodhitree*
> 
> I've been struggling with the meat thing a lot. It would be a lot easier if DH ate meat too because it would open up a lot of options in terms of meal planning and doing more TF stuff. I feel like I need to learn to like meat, but it's hard to do that when I don't know how to cook or eat it and the only other adult in my household is all like, "Ew!" I would love to try drastically decreasing grains and mostly eating veggies, fruit, meat, and eggs, but I'm not sure how to do that when I also have to cook for DH. I'm still not feeling great physically, and I probably should try eating quite a bit more meat, but I feel totally stuck. I don't know, I'm so confused about what to do next. I think I need a meat mentor. My parents will be coming to visit in a couple weeks, so maybe I can get my dad to teach me to cook (and enjoy!) steak.










Gosh, that's rough! I would say that he is being kind of petty, but I would totally have responded the same way a few months ago if my hub was cooking meat in the house, and yeah now that I look back, maybe I was being petty, too.

Do you think he'd "cheat" on sushi? Sushi was kind of what set me on my downward (as far as vegan goes) spiral. This place in my home town has the K.A.--I have no idea what the japanese name is--but it's a cooked (fried) roll with eel and I swear it is like sushi candy!! I could eat that stuff every day! So good.

Maybe you could try making comfort foods that he might cheat on? Especially as you said that he eats Cheetos







Or maybe grilled kebabs with scallops or smth? Scallops have a pretty "blank" flavor. Would he be open to a compromise at least on seafood or if you have a heart to heart and just let him know how the commentary makes you feel since this is already hard enough for you? Or maybe the intellectual route--that bone is bone whether it's in broth or the gelatin in candies and cheese is cheese whether it's cheetos or not (tho you are dairy-free for bf, right?). What about egg fried rice, it's so hidden, you really can't see/taste it much.

In the meantime, you could strike on cooking special stuff separately for him or here are some ideas for foods that can be veg/omni pretty easily: burritos--cook ground beef separately but still heat beans, everybody makes their own self-serve. Ditto for tacos; spaghetti (okay not the healthiest, right), pizza, just do meat on half or do two smaller pizzas with the same amount of dough, mmmm, grill regular burgers and boca for burger night, ummm . . . stir fry with cashews (can dd tolerate nuts through your milk?) for everyone and then do a small pan of seared beef or chicken to add to yours? Chile could have the meat added after the beans and all have already cooked, too.

I hope that he caves and starts eating meat with you 

I need a meat mentor, too! And dh is no help because he never really learned to cook whether veg or meaty foods. I have managed to cobble together a menu plan of sorts; I'll upload it after I have it typed up on the computer.

Good luck to all! I am glad that you are all here on this thread!


----------



## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

Wow, I totally feel like I'm overposting now







but here goes:

Menu plan "skeleton"




Sunday



Brek



Fried eggs, toast, fruit





Lunch



Leftover pizza, salad





Dinner



Slow beans- beans and rice, bean soup, etc.



Monday



Brek



Brown rice grits or oatmeal, fruit





Lunch



Beans and baked potato





Dinner



Roast chicken, veggies, salad



Tuesday



Brek



Scrambled eggs w/ veggies





Lunch



Taco salad w/ leftover chicken





Dinner



Tacos/burritos w/ ground beef, brown rice



Wednesday



Brek



Brown rice pudding





Lunch



salad and sammiches





Dinner



Chile w/ leftover ground beef or chicken



Thursday



Brek



eggs breakfast





Lunch



Chile baked potatoes





Dinner



Big garden salad, lentils/soup



Friday



Brek



Oatmeal or brown rice grits





Lunch



bbq tempeh w/ rice or as sammiches





Dinner



Salmon, rice or potato, salad



Saturday



Brek



Veggie omelet





Lunch



Stir-fried rice w/ veggies and tofu





Dinner



Pizza



I have some tempeh and tofu that I need to use up, and after that I'm going to try and ditch soy except for miso and fresh edamame this summer (coz it makes my mouth drool to think of, and I already have the plants growing). I am also going by Gloria LeMay's advice for pg women (not coz I'm pg but coz it seems like sound advice and good for bf) of either brown rice or a whole baked potato daily as well as a big green salad daily. She also advocates for 4 veggies and 2 fruits which I'll aim for as well. Snacks are a weakness, and I'm going to try for leftovers, raw fruit or veggies (not chips! heh heh). I don't know if we'll need both ground beef and chicken or if we'll end up just alternating chicken/beef every other week. I also think it would be a good idea to alternate weeks for quinoa in the place of brown rice, too.

As you can see, there's still bread (sammiches and pizza) in there, and maybe we'll work those out, but for now, I've got to start somewhere! Maybe it's not the most TF, and I should add in bone broth, I'm sure! But I am planning to soak any grains/beans.

Where can I add in nuts? I have a ton of nuts in the freezer coz I kind of food-hoard when things are on sale







maybe in salads or as snacks? I am kinda short on cooking time or would make nut burgers for lunches. Any other ideas for nuts? I make a mean walnut mushroom gravy








but didn't really plan any gravy-friendly meals here? Coz of the whole baked potato thing rather than mashed, tho maybe nut gravy over steamed veggies would be good.

The idea is to get us out of this cheese-dependent slump we've been in. I swear my family is at least 15% cheese by weight


----------



## SandraMort (Jun 19, 2003)

Why not have your gravy over the baked potato? You could even put cheese on the potato first! *duck & run* OK, how about fries with gravy? Biscuits and gravy? Mashed potatoes and gravy? Why are we looking for gravy uses anyway, is it to use the broth?

Can't help you on limiting cheese. We're cheese addicts here, too.


----------



## SandraMort (Jun 19, 2003)

HOW frustrating!!! *SOMEBODY* replied to me, but it seems to have been deleted, but somebody else quoted them, so I'm pulling it out of their reply... hope this isn't so confusing.

I totally relate to not living up to my new carni food aspirations--for me, I'm having a hard time because I feel like moving toward Traditional Foods is really an entire lifestyle change for me, just re-creating my whole rhythm to include all of the food prep that this entails, ie keeping the bone broth going and soaking the nuts/grains/legumes, making ferments, etc. I feel really off-balance with food prep because I don't really know how often I need to include meat, plus I'm trying to move to un-processed grains (and failing presently, lol), then there's the fact that my dh is working swings and not home for dinner . . . it's kind of a mess.

Sounds overwhelming!!

But for me, I haven't noticed any difference in taste when cooking in bone broth? maybe coz I use a lot of other spices, garlic, turmeric, paprika, lately when cooking the grains.

Maybe. I do make plain beans and rice, which is the only way the boys will eat them. But also, I was always one of those vegetarians who didn't eat meat even as a trace ingredient in something, so I was always very aware of even a tiny taste of it. And I make a strong broth, since I'm doing it primarily for health reasons.

My fam is going ahead with the meat-eating, dd somewhat grudgingly. I can't imagine being on the other side of the coin--dh was the solo meat-eater for so long, and now that I'm omni, I just really appreciate so much his support. How awesome that your dh totally supports you with this, though!

My husband does. My kids less so.


----------



## SandraMort (Jun 19, 2003)

How long were you vegetarian? It was so long for me that I just don't REMEMBER beforehand, really. I felt great for the first decade of it. I don't personally believe that being vegetarian was responsible for the injury, though. My mother and sister have similar problems and entirely different diets.

Sandra

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *craft_media_hero*
> Me too! I wasn't able to--I stuck with veg while I could, and then I just felt like my health was drawing off of my reserves for so long until finally I was tapped out. I had just one big health crisis (basically my last two years of school consisted of too much sleep deprivation and numerous major oral surgeries into my jaw under anesthesia and living in some pretty unhealthy rentals then pregnancy then the birth now breastfeeding, and getting sick over and over throughout) after another and that I really needed the extra nutrients from meat in order to get my constitution back.


----------



## SandraMort (Jun 19, 2003)

I am SO jealous of people who can meal plan like that!!! I try and then get to the day and don't want anything I've planned. Every time!


----------



## SandraMort (Jun 19, 2003)

Sorry, had trouble with the quoty thing.

>You also have an ethical obligation to take care of your own health, and right now that means you need to be eating meat, so just do what you can and

>don't worry too much about it! And you DO have a right to eat what you need in order to feel good mentally and physically. Weight has nothing to do

>with it. You don't have to be at a certain weight before you get to feel like you deserve nourishment. You don't have to earn that--it's part of your >inherent worth as a human being. If I sound like I feel strongly about that, it's because I do. It's taken me a long time to learn to be on my own side >regardless of my weight, so please excuse my mini-rant.

I hear what you're saying and if I was talking to somebody else, I'd say the same thing, but I still don't believe it applies to me. I know, not rational 

Quote:


> It would be a lot easier if DH ate meat too because it would open up a lot of options in terms of meal planning and doing more TF stuff. I feel like I need to learn to like meat, but it's hard to do that when I don't know how to cook or eat it and the only other adult in my household is all like, "Ew!"


Yes. WHAT YOU SAID.

>I think I need a meat mentor. My parents will be coming to visit in a couple weeks, so maybe I can get my dad to teach me to cook (and enjoy!) >steak.

Depends on your relationship. Mine will cook for me, but it's always interspersed with so many comments that piss me off ("MMMM, slabs of dead cow flesh!" and "I'm SO glad you're done being vegetarian!" etc) that it's a net loss.

Sandra


----------



## SandraMort (Jun 19, 2003)

Isn't it sort of disrespectful to try to trick him into cheating? OK, if he wants to give up on veg*nism, that's one thing, but waving comfort foods in front of his face when he doesn't want to? It seems like the sort of thing that would backfire BIGTIME.

Sandra

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *craft_media_hero*
> 
> Do you think he'd "cheat" on sushi? Sushi was kind of what set me on my downward (as far as vegan goes) spiral. This place in my home town has the K.A.--I have no idea what the japanese name is--but it's a cooked (fried) roll with eel and I swear it is like sushi candy!! I could eat that stuff every day! So good.
> 
> Maybe you could try making comfort foods that he might cheat on?


----------



## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SandraMort*
> 
> Isn't it sort of disrespectful to try to trick him into cheating? OK, if he wants to give up on veg*nism, that's one thing, but waving comfort foods in front of his face when he doesn't want to? It seems like the sort of thing that would backfire BIGTIME.
> 
> Sandra


Maybe so. But for bodhi's sake, I do hope their food preferences align one day







I only suggest offering animal-containing foods that he might like because she has said that he does "cheat" on his veganism but is arbitrary about what/how--which is kinda a double standard, kwim?







Not to judge in any way, just that I can imagine it would be much easier of a transition if one's partner was going through it at the same time. And of course, not if he doesn't want to, but more like if he really does wants to on the inside but is holding out because of clinging in veg*nism, which I experienced myself at times--like what I really wanted was a steak fajita, but I'd go ahead and settle for something vegetarian because my diet dictated it; like wanting two different things on two different levels.

Anyway, I was veg for about 7 years, vegan for the first few and then compromised to ovo-lacto when my husband joined our home (with me and dd)--then, like I said, sushi was the beginning of my downfall







I have been having major sushi cravings lately! I grew up very much eating meat from our farm--I remember eating rabbit that we raised, frogs legs that my momma foraged, steak that Gramma had pastured, chickens from my other gramma's coop, raw milk was a given, so this is really a return to my roots, and I feel good about it.

Well, I'm going to get started on that meal plan as of next week--this week is shot as we are have plans for the next four days for dh's birthday









In the meantime







to all!


----------



## bodhitree (May 12, 2008)

Jes, thanks so much for your thoughtful responses. It really would help if DH were on board with the dietary changes, but he is being cool about it. He did say "Ew!" out loud once, but since then he's trying really hard not to say anything, even when he wakes up to a house that smells like bacon. LOL I don't think there's any chance of me persuading him to eat actual meat, but I do think I could get him to eat eggs (and dairy, if DD and I could eat it). So there's some hope there. I got a new cookbook--"Full Moon Feast" by Jessica Prentice--that is both very spiritual and very TF, and he did say something about how my new book looks really cool, so maybe if he looks at it some more he might start to think about changing his diet more too. He acknowledges that refusing to eat (well treated, humanely and ecologically raised) animals may not do any concrete good in the world but he still likes not eating meat because there is a long history of vegetarianism in our religion (we are Buddhists). So his reasons are getting pretty thin at this point, and even if he doesn't change his mind right now, he might in the future.

Thanks for the meal ideas too. Some of those will probably work for us, even with all of our crazy food restrictions. I also found a pair of chili recipes the other day, one meaty and the other veg, with mostly the same ingredients and prep, so that could be helpful. DD had blood drawn for allergy tests last week, so I'm hoping that when we go to her doc for results at the end of the month, we might get some more definitive answers about what we can and can't eat. We might lose more foods, but I'm hoping it'll start going in the other direction sometime soon! My mom promised to help me brainstorm meals when she and my dad come next weekend. They're also going to give me lessons in beef







and buy me a grill for my birthday, so that's going to help a ton.

Your meal plan looks good! I agree with you about edamame. Yum! They don't seem to grow well here, but I might give it one more try this year. What about adding chopped nuts to hot cereals for breakfast? You could also do roasted spiced nuts for snacks.

Sandra, luckily for me, my parents are awesome and aren't going to make any snotty remarks about my change in diet. We've always had a very mutually respectful relationship, which is interesting because my dad is an avid hunter and meat eater. I never tried to tell him how wrong he was, and I even learned a ton from him about the benefits of hunting and how much conservation work a lot of hunters do. I even listened to his story about when he got an elk--he was so excited, it was pretty adorable. So in return he's always been respectful and considerate about my choices, even learning to like tofu! When I told him I was thinking about eating meat, all he said was, "Don't worry, you'll figure out the right thing to do."









And yeah, I don't plan on pressuring DH to eat meat. Again, if I want him to respect my choices, I have to respect his. Doesn't mean I can't politely point out to him (once or twice, not over and over) how his "rules" about eating don't make any sense and how much easier my life would be if he decided to eat eggs and maybe eventually dairy.

I was thinking about your situation, and it sounds like maybe it's bugging you a lot that your children disapprove of you eating meat. Just curious, how old are they? This might be a good opportunity for them to develop their compassion and learn about how things aren't always black and white. They really should be kind to you about it, but obviously I know you can't *make* them do that.


----------



## SandraMort (Jun 19, 2003)

I don't know. I think that if he's prone to slipping up, it's still not the same as deliberately undermining his continued (even if not always successful) attempts. Certainly it's easier if he's on the same page, but he's not. Sounds like something he needs to do on his own schedule or else he may hold her responsible for his slipping. KWIM?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *craft_media_hero*
> 
> Maybe so. But for bodhi's sake, I do hope their food preferences align one day
> 
> ...


----------



## SandraMort (Jun 19, 2003)

Nothing wrong with polite respectful discussion.

My kids aren't rude. I could ignore that. It's the sad looks and "Mommy, it makes me sad that you eat meat" types of comments that bother me. All they're doing is repeating what we taught them. I can't blame them for that. I just am sad, too, and say so.

Sandra

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bodhitree*
> 
> And yeah, I don't plan on pressuring DH to eat meat. Again, if I want him to respect my choices, I have to respect his. Doesn't mean I can't politely point out to him (once or twice, not over and over) how his "rules" about eating don't make any sense and how much easier my life would be if he decided to eat eggs and maybe eventually dairy.
> 
> I was thinking about your situation, and it sounds like maybe it's bugging you a lot that your children disapprove of you eating meat. Just curious, how old are they? This might be a good opportunity for them to develop their compassion and learn about how things aren't always black and white. They really should be kind to you about it, but obviously I know you can't *make* them do that.


----------



## bodhitree (May 12, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SandraMort*
> 
> Nothing wrong with polite respectful discussion.
> 
> ...


This is interesting. I guess I'm still having some issues adjusting to eating meat and figuring out what it means for my personal identity, but it is getting better, and I don't foresee being sad about it long-term. For me, what has helped the most with that is re-examining the reasons why I used to believe I should be a vegetarian, looking carefully at the evidence, and concluding that in fact being a vegetarian is not necessarily the best path for health, the environment, or even the animals. Right now I do have to eat meat for health reasons because my diet is so restricted due to DD's and my food allergies. But I felt pretty good as a vegetarian for 15 years, and after DD weans, I could probably go back to it. I don't think I will, though, because my thinking has changed so much during this process.


----------



## SandraMort (Jun 19, 2003)

I never felt that eating meat was wrong so much as really gross. Just the whole idea of eating a rotting corpse makes me gag. And yes, eating dead plants kinda grosses me out, too, but it's a lot less nasty. Yeah, I have some issues with food. I know it's me. Having my own birds and killing them myself made a HUGE difference in my willingness to eat it - I knew how they lived, how they died and how fresh it *really* was. So... I guess not much in my belief system has changed. I still think that if your body is staying healthy without dead animals and you're happier that way, then it's the best path for you. I find it hard, if not impossible, to believe that millions of vegetarians (like much of India, for example) are all slowly killing themselves by not eating meat.

Sandra



> Originally Posted by *bodhitree*
> This is interesting. I guess I'm still having some issues adjusting to eating meat and figuring out what it means for my personal identity, but it is getting better, and I don't foresee being sad about it long-term. For me, what has helped the most with that is re-examining the reasons why I used to believe I should be a vegetarian, looking carefully at the evidence, and concluding that in fact being a vegetarian is not necessarily the best path for health, the environment, or even the animals. Right now I do have to eat meat for health reasons because my diet is so restricted due to DD's and my food allergies. But I felt pretty good as a vegetarian for 15 years, and after DD weans, I could probably go back to it. I don't think I will, though, because my thinking has changed so much during this process.


----------



## bodhitree (May 12, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SandraMort*
> 
> I find it hard, if not impossible, to believe that millions of vegetarians (like much of India, for example) are all slowly killing themselves by not eating meat.


That's what I used to think too, but I keep reading that South India (where much of the population is lacto-vegetarian) has the shortest lifespans in the world. I haven't dug down into the relevant studies myself, so I don't know how much stock to put in that. And of course, it's extremely possible that even if they do have short lifespans, it's due to other factors. Just saying I'm not as confident in the logic that "Since there are places in the world where a huge chunk of the population is vegetarian, vegetarianism must not be detrimental to your health." Now I feel like I need a LOT more information before I would be able to make a judgment about that. One thing I have learned over the last few months is not to make easy assumptions or take anyone's word on anything relating to health and nutrition, since I've seen so many examples of bad science and poor reasoning from all sides (including myself, sadly







). That's going to be one of the lasting take-aways for me from this whole transition.

I made some good progress this week. First, I learned to eat and love bacon without feeling too weird about it.







Second, I started taking cod liver oil and almost immediately started to feel better--the headachiness and general ickiness I'd been feeling is mostly gone. Yay!


----------



## Otto (Oct 19, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bodhitree*
> 
> That's what I used to think too, but I keep reading that South India (where much of the population is lacto-vegetarian) has the shortest lifespans in the world.


Going by 2008 WHO numbers (PDF here, Flash app here), Afghanistan has that dubious honor, with a life expectancy at birth of 41.9. You have to go through all of sub-Saharan Africa before running into India at 64.3, with ischemic heart disease and lower respiratory infection being the top two causes. Maternal and infant mortality appear to decrease as one moves south through the subcontinent. There are a lot of ways to cut up such data, but nothing is leaping out from what I've seen about India to suggest that something of this sort is the case.


----------



## macandcheese (Jun 22, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *craft_media_hero*
> 
> ... I settled for local, "natural" (though I'm not sure what that means) free range, antibiotic and hormone free. I wonder what is the big difference between that and organic?


I haven't read the whole thread yet, so someone may have answered this already. The US government essentially owns the term "Certified Organic." Farms and food producers have to pay big bucks and file loads of paperwork to get certified, and that's usually way too much of a financial and time commitment for small farms. To avoid trouble with the government, a lot of farmers will avoid using the term "organic" at all and will use "natural" or "sustainable" instead. Of the farmers I deal with, those three terms all mean essentially the same thing. (Actually, as a side note, Certified Organic farming is actually way more lenient on the use of fertilizers and pesticides than the "sustainable" guidelines a lot of folks practice. If you ask how stuff is grown/raised, the farmer will probably give you a super detailed explanation.)

There's also something called "Certified Naturally Grown," which is basically a peer-review system for organic farmers who don't want to go through government certification. There's lots of good information on the group's website: http://www.naturallygrown.org/


----------



## bodhitree (May 12, 2008)

I made meatballs tonight. It was the first time I'd eaten beef since I was about 15! They were pretty good, but it'll take some more practice to figure out how to make them REALLY good. It would help if DD and I could have dairy. Some grated parm would have been a great addition to the meatballs, and on top of the pasta too!


----------



## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

Mmmm, I haven't tried meatballs yet. I did try a bratwurst the other day! There was a very pork-y taste to it that I didn't really like--but not that the pork was bad, just that this particular brat really tasted "sweaty"? Idk--I'm going to keep trying to see if I really do dislike it or just certain ways it's prepared. I'm seeing cheap deals on farm-raised pork here all the time, so I'd really like to like it, even just for the ease of obtaining it here in my locale.

Tonight I roasted a chicken--my goodness, I have to say that learning to cook meat again sure is throwing me for a loop--it was about 10pm before we had dinner! So now I know to start the chicken waaaaay earlier. I roasted it with whole potatoes, garlic cloves, and quartered apples, sprinkled the chicken with pumpkin pie spice, paprika, garlic, salt. It was good!

Since we were out of town until last night, there are no freshies in the fridge, and I need my green leafies!! But I remembered that I had frozen bags of prepped cole slaw that need eaten up--so tomorrow we get chicken breast sammiches and cole slaw for lunch









Bodhitree--that Full Moon Feast book sounds interesting. I identify so much with a lot of what you're saying, how your thinking has changed.

My primary reason for quitting meat was factory farming and animal injustice; then last year getting into our local food movement via weekly trips to our csa farm kinda got me started on re-accepting that animals can be raised well and sustainably for the land. I used to think that vegetarianism would save the environment, but now for myself I think that local based food culture has a more positive impact, whether that food includes animal products or not.

Just to clarify from upthread-I don't think that my health problems came from vegetarianism, but rather from having multiple surgeries per year for several years, etc--just that those were a major draw on my core health, followed by pregnancy (tho I was lacto-ovo thru the pg), then after he was born I got really nasty sick a couple times and could really feel that I was having a hard time fighting it off--and then I started craving meat really strongly. So my health problems were unrelated, but I think that eating meat (esp. bone broth) is a faster route to helping me get my core strength back.

Slightly related in food land-planted the baby corn, black-eyed peas, mini squash, some adzuki, and more spinach today! Researching coop designs. Remembering baby chicks from my childhood. Tomorrow, I'm planting a stir-fry plot with mustard greens, snow peas, raab broccoli, carrots, green onions. Mmmmm, bring it!

Tonight, dd said, 'I'm so glad that I decided to eat meat once again--this dinner is delicious' 

My new healing food / nutrition goal is to make smoothies (with greens) in the am to go with breakfast and to get back on taking our supplements.


----------



## bodhitree (May 12, 2008)

Ooh, your garden sounds great. I haven't started putting anything in the ground yet. There are still two whole months to go before our last frost date! I'll probably start putting in some lettuce, spinach, and kale within the next couple weeks, though. I had big plans to start seeds indoors, but I can't keep DD out of the houseplants as it is, and I don't have anyplace to start seeds that would be out of her reach.

Now that I've had more of a chance to look it over, I highly recommend Full Moon Feast. There are recipes (I haven't tried any yet) but much of the book is just about food and our relationship to it and how eating mindfully can encourage connection in our lives. I think it's pretty great.

My parents are coming this weekend, and I think we're going to grill steaks! I haven't had a steak in probably 18 years, so that will be interesting. I'm hoping I love it. I'm just not up for joylessly eating things because I have to. Enjoying my food is a very high priority for me! The good news is that my palate is adjusting. When I first started eating eggs again, they tasted kind of icky but I choked them down. Now I like them!


----------



## bodhitree (May 12, 2008)

Just bumping to say the steaks were good and I'm excited to cook all kinds of stuff on my new grill!

How's everyone else doing?


----------



## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

Full Moon Feast is now on my Amazon wishlist 

We had steaks last Saturday, too, and wow! Like meat candy, lol. Seriously can't believe I waited this long to have steak!

Tonight we're having pork loin medallions and baked potatoes, steamed broccoli. Pork is my bravest foray so far, lol. I had this huge detest for it while veg*n (probably because I associated it so much with all the factory farm stuff I've seen). But this is a farm pig, and I think it's going to be really good.

I don't know what's up with me--I am still hungry all.the.friggin.time if I don't eat meat daily. I've been adding in lots of fats to everything I cook on the premise that more (healthy) fats help one feel fuller for longer. But maybe it's 'coz we haven't been eating a lot of bread products and have had no cheese in the house for a couple of weeks which is really different for us. That's probably it, now that I think about it. We've been eating brown rice and quinoa and occasional organic corn tortillas (with lime!), but really hardly any bread and the dearth of cheese is a major change for my house.

I'm checking out a local herd share for a milk supply--this is a huge step for me as I've been a loyal soy girl for years and years. But since I've been digging heavy cream, half and half, milk kefir, butter, etc, I think I can do some real milk--if not we'll just use the milk in other dishes like cream soups, sauces, etc. I haven't yet made the leap of faith to call local farmers about getting a large quantity of meat--I'm working myself up to it and actually really looking forward to it! I want to make cheese!! I made yogurt which came out a lot like ricotta though flavored w/ honey and pumpkin pie spice so I froze it and made soft-serve yogurt for dd.

I have been avoiding soy intuitively, I know I ate it/drank it for so long (and in mass quantities), and NOW I'm questioning whether it's healthy for me? Right. Idk, I think I hit this turning point w/ soy as ds has started solids and I just have this mama gut intuition that I don't want to feed him soy or give him soy breastmilk--even though I ate it while I was pregnant









We have a huge stash of boxed soy milk (which we get from food commodities WIC while we qualify) in the garage that must be used. I guess I'd rather have organic soy milk than "regular" antibiotic and hormone-laden cow milk. *shrug*

Emotionally--I'm feeling like a hypocrite for all my years of loyal veg-sim and now I'm so easily swinging to the other end of the pendulum.

I recently read on mdc that detesting meat can be a sign of zinc deficiency--hmmm. There were many times in the last handful of years that I suspected zinc deficiency for other reasons.

Still really enjoying the challenge of re-learning to cook and the huge variety of dishes that are now open to me. Still feeling relieved and really overjoyed at the freedom I now have in my diet. Have come out to the rest of my family and have gotten some irritating comments about how "we're made to eat meat....protein deficiency, etc." which really irk me. I don't think I was ever protein deficient, not by a far sight. I think I was fat-deficient







and missing out on some other nutrients, probably. But I do still feel like I have to defend that people CAN be healthy on vegetarianism and that there are traditional veg diets (granted they are lacto-ovo) that are quite sustainable. It's like people want me to admit that I was wrong all those years, and I can't admit that because I don't believe it--we ate really healthy! I managed to produce a big healthy baby on a veg diet! Isn't that proof enough?

So I am still really glad for the support on this thread because even though I've "come out" and am positively accepting myself as a meat-eater, I still feel like there are issues that only others who have gone through this transition will understand.


----------



## frugalmum (Nov 5, 2009)

hi, I guess this would be me. I have been a very strict vegan with a few breaks for the past 6 years. However for the past year or so I started eating meat somewhat regularly, following my cravings-- mostly roasted chicken (including skin), some eggs, and yogurt. However I still average a "mostly vegan" way of eating but since I'm not strictly vegan I never know what to call myself!

I developed a lot of dental problems while vegan despite the fact that I was drinking juice fortified with calcium. I still don't know if this was "just because" or if it was due to cutting out all dairy (I was also sugar free and still am, more or less). I'm still not sure what to do on this front. I don't particularly like cheese or milk but can usually eat yogurt in moderate quantities.

However all this came crashing to a halt when I learned my mother had been diagnosed with breast cancer-- I have not eaten meat since-- one of the main reasons I cut out meat in the first place was because of the cancer risk. I don't know how realistic my fears are, and I would like to go back to an occasional meal with poultry or fish, but am terrified now. My mother has always eaten a lot of meat, most of it red meat, a lot of it grilled. Any thoughts on the cancer risk of eating meat?


----------



## SandraMort (Jun 19, 2003)

>However I still average a "mostly vegan" way of eating but since I'm not strictly vegan I never know what to call myself!

Back when I was vegan, I called somebody who ate that way a "meat minimalist".


----------



## mambera (Sep 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *frugalmum*
> 
> However all this came crashing to a halt when I learned my mother had been diagnosed with breast cancer-- I have not eaten meat since-- one of the main reasons I cut out meat in the first place was because of the cancer risk. I don't know how realistic my fears are, and I would like to go back to an occasional meal with poultry or fish, but am terrified now. My mother has always eaten a lot of meat, most of it red meat, a lot of it grilled. Any thoughts on the cancer risk of eating meat?


Thread-crashing  to say that

1) AFAIK the jury is still out on meat consumption and risk of breast and colorectal cancers, and

2) I think the concern is more about red meat cooked at high temperatures or cured/preserved, rather than about total animal-product consumption per se. Fish has been found to be protective in some analyses.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20495462

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21110906

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15956652


----------



## frugalmum (Nov 5, 2009)

thanks mambera. My understanding is that charred red meats are dangerous and that cured meats contain sulfites which are carcinogenous.

Has anyone here tried canned Salmon? This would kill two birds with one stone (haha) as it is very high in calcium. I've never tried it. How did you prepare/ serve it? Is it already cooked in the can or is it raw?


----------



## bodhitree (May 12, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *craft_media_hero*
> 
> I'm checking out a local herd share for a milk supply--this is a huge step for me as I've been a loyal soy girl for years and years. But since I've been digging heavy cream, half and half, milk kefir, butter, etc, I think I can do some real milk--if not we'll just use the milk in other dishes like cream soups, sauces, etc. I haven't yet made the leap of faith to call local farmers about getting a large quantity of meat--I'm working myself up to it and actually really looking forward to it! I want to make cheese!! I made yogurt which came out a lot like ricotta though flavored w/ honey and pumpkin pie spice so I froze it and made soft-serve yogurt for dd.
> 
> ...


I'm jealous that you get to look for a milk herd share. I'm so looking forward to getting dairy back in our diets someday. Sigh.

I would probably use the soymilk too. We've been avoiding soy just because it's such an allergenic food, but I'm not convinced that soy is the devil in food form like a lot of people believe. I don't know that I want to eat it in huge quantities like I used to, but I don't think smallish amounts are going to kill you.

And I don't think that changing your diet means you're a hypocrite. When your circumstances, knowledge, and needs change, you can change your actions too, and it's just fine. The cognitive whiplash can be difficult to deal with







but there's nothing wrong with making different choices than you used to. The thing that makes the health argument a bit complicated is that people want to talk about it like the same thing is going to work for everyone, and frankly it's not! Some people can be healthy on a vegetarian diet, but others can't be. But most people aren't interested in that level of complexity, especially when their main goal is to enjoy telling you that they told you so.









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *frugalmum*
> 
> hi, I guess this would be me. I have been a very strict vegan with a few breaks for the past 6 years. However for the past year or so I started eating meat somewhat regularly, following my cravings-- mostly roasted chicken (including skin), some eggs, and yogurt. However I still average a "mostly vegan" way of eating but since I'm not strictly vegan I never know what to call myself!
> 
> ...


I've been reading lots of blogs and such about people who used to be veg and no longer are, and a bunch of them have mentioned tooth decay. I believe the theory is that not only do vegans limit their intake of calcium by not consuming dairy, but also their diet tends to be very heavy on grains and beans that contain anti-nutrients that actually prevent you from absorbing minerals. I myself haven't looked into that enough to decide whether I believe it or not, but there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that tooth decay may be associated with veg*nism.

I'm sorry about your mom's diagnosis. My thoughts on cancer risk--even if there is an association b/w meat consumption and cancer (another thing I'm not sure about at this point), there's a big difference between occasionally eating meat and eating a lot of it all the time. And contrary to what I used to believe when I was mostly vegan, there are plenty of nutrients (not just protein) that are much easier to get in animal products, and there are bound to be at least some health benefits to getting those nutrients. Also, our ancestors have been eating meat for hundreds of thousands of generations, so I can't believe that a type of food that was a major source of nutrition during the course of our evolution is likely to do us serious harm. In short, personally I'm not worrying about cancer risk at this time.

As for me, I've been getting better at being a meat-eater. It's funny that it's sort of a skill, but it sure feels that way to me! I got a few new cookbooks, which is helping. I made some chicken nuggets in the slow cooker last week, and they were yummy! There's still a learning curve, but I'm feeling more comfortable with the whole thing.


----------



## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

antinutrients in legumes/grains- right, that's why so many people say it's essential to soak grains/beans

canned salmon-salmon burgers! YUM!

evil soy-right, I agree that soy gets a way more bad rep than it should. I do think that it's a beneficial food and that there are probably benefits and drawbacks, all things in moderation, right? Oh, and I have also been reading/thinking about how fermented soy is easier to digest and doesn't have the anti-nutrients, etc, so I'm thinking about making soy kefir or piima milk! Since we have all that boxed milk, and it really is yummy, will be even more so once it's kefir-ed and maybe blended with some frozen fruit, huh? I have been frequenting the culturesforhealth.com site, and I love love love it! I know it's off-topic, but I'm totally going to get more into fermenting foods and try making sourdough bread (though it seems kind of a pain that you have to feed it for several days before baking?)

red meat and cancer- I was browsing through the back TF thread and read smth about the fat getting burned which is where the risk factor is so that if you grill you should do so in a cast iron pan--easy enough! Idk if this is fact or not, I think it was on a TF steak thread if you wanna search, sry I don't have the link right now.

herd share/dairy intolerances-for what it's worth, I've seen it mentioned a lot on the tf board about how people who cannot tolerate dairy are able to drink raw milk or kefir *shrug* maybe worth a try?

Also---there's this book . . . "Reversing Food Intolerances" or smth like that? I bet you can dig it up if you use the search function here on mdc

frugalmum, welcome to the thread!!

Sorry this is so hasty, I've gotta get to making dinner--diced leftover pork tenderloin (which was delicious, btw) with veges in leftover cooked quinoa, like pork fried rice









be back to post more soon!


----------



## jeanine123 (Jan 7, 2005)

I saw this in a magazine and thought about this thread and thought some of you may be interested. A documentary that will air on PBS around about Earth Day about one vegetarian woman's journey of marrying a hunter/commercial fisherman and moving to Alaska and wanting to eat locally.

http://www.eatingalaska.com/


----------



## erratum (May 26, 2008)

It's so strange that this subject has been weighing heavily on my mind lately and to find a whole thread about it. As of now, I'm still on the fence. I've been a vegetarian for 17 years and have been seriously questioning how healthy it really is for a few months now, starting with cravings and dreams about meat. Those have faded but I found out a few weeks ago that DS has two cavities and it really has me searching for answers in our diet. I can't help but think that our vegetarianism might have something to do with his decay and that my morals may be putting my family's health at risk.

And I feel the way so many of you have said: that I would be loosing a huge piece of my identity or my integrity if I were to start eating meat.

Besides dismembering things







-- bones and gristle and fat: OH MY! -- and the good natured but relentless ribbing of my family (they think "hey, would you like some steak?" is a HILARIOUS joke and have thought this for 17 years. I can only imagine what sort of guff we'll get when we tell them we changed our minds.), the hardest thing for me to get past is that I don't know how to justify to my child that killing things is ok and (most importantly) something that WE do, because I still have a hard time justifying it to myself.

Though I've been at times a fairly militant vegetarian in the past (though not evangelical), I've tried to raise DS without the militant view (ie: most people eat meat but our family doesn't, no big deal.) but he's a sensitive guy. He once had a concerned talk with me after watching me spray the ants who had taken up residence in my houseplants with orange oil. He said that really there was no need to kill the ants because they don't hurt us and we can all share the house together and be happy. (He's three.) And frankly I'm a sensitive lady so I had no answer for him other that they get into the cats' food and then the cats have nothing to eat, because he's kind of right and I asked myself the same question while I was doing it. As far as pests go, ants are really just annoying and not much else.

And I question whether I'm really entitled to eat an animal that I KNOW I wouldn't have the guts/gumption/stomach to kill myself. I've always stuck to the philosophy that if I was starving, I would certainly kill and eat an animal, but if I have the option to make another choice, why shouldn't I?

But is my body trying to tell me that it's not an option I can choose?

One thing that really resonated with me is how pp's have mentioned how much we go out of our way with the processed veggie substitute products that have a laundry list of ingredients when meat is so unprocessed (ie: so much closer to "real food"). I am so careful to get pure, fresh, organic produce and dairy etc. but I serve 'em up with a processed slab of Quorn from a box in the freezer. What's that about?! Soy may or may not be safe, but it's defiantly a goitrogen, and being hyperthyroid, I try to avoid it these days. (I swilled it down like there was no tomorrow in the past!) And most of the other veggie proteins are so carb heavy.

I agree with the traditional food philosophies in many respects. We've been drinking raw milk and eating pastured eggs for about a year and a half. We eat lots of butter, cheese, and cream. I try to soak most grains (but meal planing is not my strong suit) and our bread is homemade, slow fermented, whole wheat sourdough. I just started implementing fermented cod liver oil and cell salts for the cavities. I want to try bone broth, but I'm really intimidated by all the cracking bones and skimming fat and the mere mention of phrases such as "jello-like consistency" creep me out to no end.

I brought the meat question up to DP the other evening, and this decision is so weighty and I've seen meat as such an "evil" for so long, I felt like Eve temping Adam with the apple. DP felt weird about the idea of it, like I do. He says he's ok if DS and I go carnivore, but he's not so sure about himself. (he's afraid he'll get fat, he says.







) But I also wonder if a change in HIS diet wouldn't improve his wild mood swings and quick temper he gets when he's hungry. Plus he has cavities too, after 10 years on a vegetarian diet.

I must say that the idea of opening a whole new undiscovered world of cooking is really intriguing and exciting.


----------



## jkg (May 28, 2005)

I just recently found this thread and while I still haven't read through the whole thing, so many of you have so succinctly expressed what I have been thinking about the past couple months. I am so sad that my vegan diet dies not seem right for me any more. Part of me feels like perhaps I am not trying hard enough to make it work, but honestly, I no linger have the energy...and that is a big part of my problem. I am weak, tired, unmotivated, and my skin has felt like sandpaper. I just started letting some dairy and eggs back into my diet, and it seems to be helping with my skin (I'm guessing the fats?). I don't anticipate being ready to eat meat ever again, but in some way I wish I could. I have learned that I have been oh so judgmental and now that it is me weighing my ethics against what my body needs/wants, I am singing a different tune.


----------



## bodhitree (May 12, 2008)

Jes, do you have a recipe for the canned salmon burgers? That sounds good. And I've heard before that some people who can't tolerate "normal" dairy do great with raw dairy. (How weird is it that pasteurized, homogenized milk is "normal"?) The problem is, I'm not sure how to get my hands on some raw milk to try it out without having to buy a herd share. I might be able to check with a couple friends, though, to see if they have any extra that I could buy from them. I just don't want to spend $75 on the herd share and a month's worth of milk, only to find out we can't use it, kwim? We are going on an intensive gut-healing campaign over the next few months, so hopefully DD and I can heal from our food intolerances and be able to do dairy again. I'd be happy being off gluten for a good long time, but I would love to be able to have kefir, butter, and cheese.

jeanine123, thanks for the link! That looks fascinating.

erratum, like you I am very sensitive and have a hard time killing insects in my house. The other day I tried to rescue a spider who had gotten stuck on some double-sided tape, but I couldn't figure out how to do it without having to pull the poor thing's legs off. So I know where you're coming from. I guess for me, I am having to make my peace with the fact that we are animals and we cannot eat without taking life. Sure, you can eat only plants, but animals and insects are killed in order to produce those plants, no matter what. I used to think I was minimizing that by being mostly vegan, and I was, when you compare a vegan diet to eating animals who are fed grains. But when you compare a vegan diet to one that includes grassfed organic meat, it's not so clear. When I eat beef, I'm eating a very small part of a large animal, and the collateral damage to other animals and insects that comes along with that is minimal. In fact, eating grassfed beef from the ranch by my town is actually a good thing, since that ranch works hard to improve the ecology on their grazing land, which improves the habitat for all the animals who live there, not just the cattle. I guess what I'm saying is that I used to think it was really simple: if I didn't want to kill, I needed to live off of plants. But now I think that there isn't any way to avoid the karmic burden of killing in order to live, so you might as well take an honest look at the complexity of the situation and make the best choices you can. For me, those choices turned out to be pretty different from what I had imagined, but I feel that my personal integrity is better off for having gone through this process and having moved toward a different (more honest, more "real") dietary pattern. I also believe that taking life in a spirit of gratitude and reverence is very different from doing so in a spirit of denial and unconcern. I am so, so grateful every time I eat meat, and to me eating meat with that awareness is better than eating wheat or beans or whatever with no awareness of everything that has been sacrificed to put food on my plate. Your mileage may vary, of course. I'm just sharing what my experience has been.

jkg, I liked how you put it: "I have learned that I have been oh so judgmental and now that it is me weighing my ethics against what my body needs/wants, I am singing a different tune." That's a humbling realization, isn't it? I don't think I would have ever gone down this path if health issues hadn't pretty much forced me to, but actually I'm glad that they did. I think it's good for the soul to have to confront the idea that we might be fundamentally mistaken in our beliefs. Once in a while, at least. I wouldn't want to have to do it too often! lol


----------



## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bodhitree*
> 
> Jes, do you have a recipe for the canned salmon burgers? That sounds good. And I've heard before that some people who can't tolerate "normal" dairy do great with raw dairy. (How weird is it that pasteurized, homogenized milk is "normal"?) The problem is, I'm not sure how to get my hands on some raw milk to try it out without having to buy a herd share. I might be able to check with a couple friends, though, to see if they have any extra that I could buy from them. I just don't want to spend $75 on the herd share and a month's worth of milk, only to find out we can't use it, kwim? We are going on an intensive gut-healing campaign over the next few months, so hopefully DD and I can heal from our food intolerances and be able to do dairy again. I'd be happy being off gluten for a good long time, but I would love to be able to have kefir, butter, and cheese.


This recipe looks good: http://allrecipes.com//Recipe/yummy-lemon-salmon-burgers/Detail.aspx Last time, I tried the recipe off the back of the can, and it was lacking some zest, for sure! The lemon one sounds delish, though, I think I will give that a try next time. I think it would be good with a little dijon mustard mixed in to the patties, too. We've been doing fish on Fridays. I have to say, I've been trying some wack foods just for the sake of health and expanding my palate--I mixed up some sardines like how you would tuna salad (with pickle and onion, etc), and dd really liked it on crackers, I kinda choked it down coz I know sardines have good calcium and oils and all that, but the texture was a little too mushy for me. Dh gagged







I'm just going to keep at it--sardines are lower on the food chain than tuna.

Could you call a farm and explain your situation and that you would like a "sample" of milk? I don't know if that's exactly within the bounds of raw milk law, but I would think that if you were on site, they might let you try some and maybe take a little home? Idk. Raw milk actually sounds really good--it's been on my mind a lot lately. I emailed that farm, but no one has gotten back to me, so I will have to be more direct and call, I think. Now I'm panicking a bit that they won't have a herd share available!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jkg*
> 
> I just recently found this thread and while I still haven't read through the whole thing, so many of you have so succinctly expressed what I have been thinking about the past couple months. I am so sad that my vegan diet dies not seem right for me any more. Part of me feels like perhaps I am not trying hard enough to make it work, but honestly, I no linger have the energy...and that is a big part of my problem. I am weak, tired, unmotivated, and my skin has felt like sandpaper. I just started letting some dairy and eggs back into my diet, and it seems to be helping with my skin (I'm guessing the fats?). I don't anticipate being ready to eat meat ever again, but in some way I wish I could. I have learned that I have been oh so judgmental and now that it is me weighing my ethics against what my body needs/wants, I am singing a different tune.


jkg- I'm glad that you are here! I understand what you are saying. I used to think that the only fascist universal law I could ever imagine being just would be world veganism--that if everyone were vegan, it would save the planet, and there would be enough food for all. My veg*nism was really driven my animal cruelty, factory farm conditions, and the declining quality of meat in the supermarket--I was looking at it from a standard consumer perspective--but like bodhitree said, pastured animal life has a totally different impact on the earth and the life of the animal, not to mention the quality of meat. Now I feel like I have to eat my words a little because yes, grain-fed beef, etc is BAD for the environment, but I do think that free range meat consumption is different. You say "I wish I could" so I want to give you permission  if you want to do so, you can consume meat--if you are craving it and your inner wise mama voice is saying you need it, then don't turn away from that-give yourself what you want/need, it's okay and not just okay but really can be a great decision







I identify with the sandpaper skin thing, I would drink water like crazy and use lots of plant oils in cooking, and my lips would always be blistery-dry but I've noticed that my skin is not as dry/itchy and my lips are no longer cracked since I started back on meat.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *erratum*
> 
> It's so strange that this subject has been weighing heavily on my mind lately and to find a whole thread about it. As of now, I'm still on the fence. I've been a vegetarian for 17 years and have been seriously questioning how healthy it really is for a few months now, starting with cravings and dreams about meat. Those have faded but I found out a few weeks ago that DS has two cavities and it really has me searching for answers in our diet. I can't help but think that our vegetarianism might have something to do with his decay and that my morals may be putting my family's health at risk.
> 
> ...


erratum-welcome to our little thread! Like you and bodhitree, I have a problem killing insects, too. I totally let the ants live in my house for a while by postponing spraying them and eventually they just went away, weird, huh?

I craved the bone broth first, I think I wanted the bone broth even more than the meat--my body was telling me that I needed that! The good news is that you don't have to crack the bones, you can just throw them in a pot with a little vinegar or lemon juice, spices, etc. and simmer simmer simmer. The jello-consistency I have yet to achieve with chicken broth--I think it is like the holy grail of bone broth and if you do finally get it, by then you'd probably be pretty psyched about it!

I don't know about the dis-membering issue. I kinda forced myself to procure the meat and go through every step of cooking it rather than rely on de-boned chicken or asking my dh to handle it raw--I just really wanted this decision to be MINE, you know? I wanted to own my meat consumption. I felt the same way, that people should be willing to kill it if they want to eat it--I don't know if I could really do that, intellectually, but I always used to tell friends (like you said) 'if I was starving in the woods, I'd definitely kill an animal to eat it' but justifying my vegetarianism that I wasn't in a life or death situation--but maybe we are? I am eating this meat to sustain my own life. For me right now, I am understanding that it is life or death. I don't know if you dig Susun Weed, and this article is primarily about goat-keeping, but if you read through it, she has some really, really awesome insights about "giving death" that I have been pondering since reading it: http://www.susunweed.com/herbal_ezine/July10/healingwise.htm I am still thinking about it . . .

I think if I knew how, I would totally go quail-hunting or something to sustain our poultry consumption. We have been cooking a chicken about every other week (for 3-4 meals from each bird)--that's 24 chickens a year! Wow. Would I personally kill two chickens a month to feed my family? I don't know. But I think if dh or I could hunt geese or duck or quail or smth and stock up the freezer once a year, I would feel really good about it. I have friends that do that, and I've got mad respect for them. Plus, it's much cheaper than buying it at the store!

I took dh to a ribs place today and had my first ribs, non-organic and all. The freedom I have to eat where/what I want is so rich, I really am luxuriating in it--not just ordering sides at a restaurant, kwim?








to you all!


----------



## SandraMort (Jun 19, 2003)

I do wonder why some people don't get the gelling in broth and others don't. I almost always get it, even when I *hanging head* use conventional meat bones. Do I cook it longer or use a different ratio of bones to water, perhaps? I don't know what I'm different to get "the holy grail" of broth most of the time. I usually use precooked bones & scraps, leftover from a meal, and I always include everything waste, rather than just bones. My pot may have cooking juices, bones, skin, cartilage, meat and blobs of fat, depending on what was leftover from the meal, plus whatever flavoring I feel like adding. Add all of that to a pot with water and a sploosh of whatever vinegar is handy (I usually use cheap white vinegar) and cook it down for an eternity, adding water as needed. Chicken gets 12-24 hours, mammals get 48-72 hours. After that, I pull out the solids and cook down the broth until it's not watery looking. How's that different from your broth?


----------



## SandraMort (Jun 19, 2003)

I'm planning to start raising quail this spring. It's very very affordable, takes almost no space (unlike chickens), easy to do and low effort. The only problem I foresee is that you need to process *many* more birds than you do chickens -- if two chickens will feed your family for a month, you may have to kill a couple of dozen quail to do the same thing. I haven't killed any yet, but I imagine it will be a little easier than chickens were. It's a lot faster, too.

Let me know if you want more information on raising quail at home.



> I think if I knew how, I would totally go quail-hunting or something to sustain our poultry consumption. We have been cooking a chicken about every other week (for 3-4 meals from each bird)--that's 24 chickens a year! Wow. Would I personally kill two chickens a month to feed my family? I don't know. But I think if dh or I could hunt geese or duck or quail or smth and stock up the freezer once a year, I would feel really good about it. I have friends that do that, and I've got mad respect for them. Plus, it's much cheaper than buying it at the store!


----------



## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SandraMort*
> 
> I do wonder why some people don't get the gelling in broth and others don't. I almost always get it, even when I *hanging head* use conventional meat bones. Do I cook it longer or use a different ratio of bones to water, perhaps? I don't know what I'm different to get "the holy grail" of broth most of the time. I usually use precooked bones & scraps, leftover from a meal, and I always include everything waste, rather than just bones. My pot may have cooking juices, bones, skin, cartilage, meat and blobs of fat, depending on what was leftover from the meal, plus whatever flavoring I feel like adding. Add all of that to a pot with water and a sploosh of whatever vinegar is handy (I usually use cheap white vinegar) and cook it down for an eternity, adding water as needed. Chicken gets 12-24 hours, mammals get 48-72 hours. After that, I pull out the solids and cook down the broth until it's not watery looking. How's that different from your broth?


That's exactly what I do. So I don't know--I've only done it with chicken, though, and I guess there's more gelatin in beef bones? Maybe I don't have enough bones--I'm doing just the leftovers from one chicken and including the cartilage, fat, etc. plus the vinegar and cooking down for about 24 hrs. *shrug* I will keep trying, though. Maybe it's my water? We have really alkaline, chlorine-y tap water which I use for cooking. Also, I haven't tried the strain it out and continue to cook down without the solids--I cook it down to about 2 quarts with the solids in it. Probably starting with at least 2 gallons of water?

About the quail--I like the idea of keeping them in my yard, but my city has an ordinance limiting us to 6 livestock animals, and we are planning on getting at least four laying hens. I don't think I can get around that. I'd love to have guineas or quail, though.

Dh doesn't seem as into the idea of providing our own food as me; he is not as go-getter-y as I am, so I don't know if he'll take the initiative to go hunting for our food. But I'm certain that if I started training/learning about hunting for small game, he would jump on board.


----------



## Earthy Birthy (Sep 26, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *craft_media_hero*
> 
> I don't know if you dig Susun Weed, and this article is primarily about goat-keeping, but if you read through it, she has some really, really awesome insights about "giving death" that I have been pondering since reading it: http://www.susunweed.com/herbal_ezine/July10/healingwise.htm


Thank you for sharing that link! I love Susun Weed, and that was a wonderful read. I have been wanting goats for a couple of years now, and I will definitely refer back to this article once we start our little herd.


----------



## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

Just had to share that my soy milk kefir came out really good! It's not as thick as dairy kefir but light and sweet and airy with a little yogurt-y tang. I used the YoGourmet kefir packets that you can get at health food stores and let it ferment for maybe abt 48 hrs. I bet it would've got more yogurt-y if I had left it another day, but there was some definite curd going on! I think blended strawberries would make it even more







So there's an option for dairy-free kefir at home! I thought it made be a problem that the milk was not full fat, but nope, real good!

So juice and soy kefir in the fridge







both are very mild for my kefir-phobic family.


----------



## erratum (May 26, 2008)

So I did it! I cruised around the bacon aisle at the grocery store for a while, but I chickened out every time, like I was buying condoms or nudey mags  Then I had a plan to buy a chicken from this great place at the farmer's market, Riverdog farms. I buy eggs from them and they have pasture raised chickens with mobile coops and it sounded so perfect. That is until I discovered they sold them with the heads and feet still on. That was one giant leap for ex-veggie-kind. A bit too much too fast. So I opted instead to take things slower and get some fish.

I cooked it tonight and it was AMAZING! I was so surprised: nothing felt wrong about it. I felt like the pp who was talking about making yummy noises when she ate. In fact, afterwords me and DH talked about how we both felt "high" and sure enough, both our pupils were dilated.

DS was curious and helped me make the fish, touching it and asking questions (like "how do you think the fish feels?" as in the animal not the texture) and seemed curious in a positive way about the whole process, but didn't want to eat any. But he's a picky guy, so that's no surprise.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bodhitree*
> 
> erratum, like you I am very sensitive and have a hard time killing insects in my house. The other day I tried to rescue a spider who had gotten stuck on some double-sided tape, but I couldn't figure out how to do it without having to pull the poor thing's legs off. So I know where you're coming from. I guess for me, I am having to make my peace with the fact that we are animals and we cannot eat without taking life. Sure, you can eat only plants, but animals and insects are killed in order to produce those plants, no matter what. I used to think I was minimizing that by being mostly vegan, and I was, when you compare a vegan diet to eating animals who are fed grains. But when you compare a vegan diet to one that includes grassfed organic meat, it's not so clear. When I eat beef, I'm eating a very small part of a large animal, and the collateral damage to other animals and insects that comes along with that is minimal. In fact, eating grassfed beef from the ranch by my town is actually a good thing, since that ranch works hard to improve the ecology on their grazing land, which improves the habitat for all the animals who live there, not just the cattle. I guess what I'm saying is that I used to think it was really simple: if I didn't want to kill, I needed to live off of plants. But now I think that there isn't any way to avoid the karmic burden of killing in order to live, so you might as well take an honest look at the complexity of the situation and make the best choices you can. For me, those choices turned out to be pretty different from what I had imagined, but I feel that my personal integrity is better off for having gone through this process and having moved toward a different (more honest, more "real") dietary pattern. I also believe that taking life in a spirit of gratitude and reverence is very different from doing so in a spirit of denial and unconcern. I am so, so grateful every time I eat meat, and to me eating meat with that awareness is better than eating wheat or beans or whatever with no awareness of everything that has been sacrificed to put food on my plate. Your mileage may vary, of course. I'm just sharing what my experience has been.
> 
> jkg, I liked how you put it: "I have learned that I have been oh so judgmental and now that it is me weighing my ethics against what my body needs/wants, I am singing a different tune." That's a humbling realization, isn't it? I don't think I would have ever gone down this path if health issues hadn't pretty much forced me to, but actually I'm glad that they did. I think it's good for the soul to have to confront the idea that we might be fundamentally mistaken in our beliefs. Once in a while, at least. I wouldn't want to have to do it too often! lol


I don't kill spiders, but for an entirely different reason. Some very small part of my brain is convinced, however ridiculous, that if you smash a spider it will release some sort of pheromone that will tell all the other spiders in the world to come and kill you.









You've made some really great points here. Another point that I've heard that resonated with me, was that if you care about humane treatment of animals, buying beans does nothing to support that. A better way to strike a blow at factory farms would be putting your money/consumer weight into supporting farms/business with humane and sustainable practices.

And I think questing your beliefs is a great (albeit difficult) thing. If something is worth believing in, if should stand up to scrutiny. And sometimes beliefs are appropriate for their time, and sometimes they need updating. And admitting that you are wrong/mistaken/in need of change is really something modern people should do more. Personal growth is a great and humbling force and hardheadedness is it's enemy. For instance, in politics, someone is seen to be "waffling(Sp?) on the issues" if they ever, in the history of their career, change their stance on a subject. Shouldn't we be glad that a politician saw his mistake and corrected it, or grew with the times and circumstances instead of folding his hands, holding his breath, and stubbornly going down with the ship just because he once voted x on y?

At least is what I'm telling myself to psych myself up for dropping the bomb on my family about the whole "meat thing." 

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *craft_media_hero*
> 
> erratum-welcome to our little thread! Like you and bodhitree, I have a problem killing insects, too. I totally let the ants live in my house for a while by postponing spraying them and eventually they just went away, weird, huh?
> 
> ...


That was a great article. It made me tear up reading it. Thanks.


----------



## Earthy Birthy (Sep 26, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *erratum*
> 
> And I think questing your beliefs is a great (albeit difficult) thing. If something is worth believing in, if should stand up to scrutiny. And sometimes beliefs are appropriate for their time, and sometimes they need updating. And admitting that you are wrong/mistaken/in need of change is really something modern people should do more. Personal growth is a great and humbling force and hardheadedness is it's enemy. For instance, in politics, someone is seen to be "waffling(Sp?) on the issues" if they ever, in the history of their career, change their stance on a subject. Shouldn't we be glad that a politician saw his mistake and corrected it, or grew with the times and circumstances instead of folding his hands, holding his breath, and stubbornly going down with the ship just because he once voted x on y?










So true. Very nicely put.


----------



## bodhitree (May 12, 2008)

Yay erratum! Welcome back to omnivorism. I'm so glad your fish was a good experience for you.







Yeah, I wouldn't be able to deal with the chicken with head and feet still attached. Maybe sometime in the future, but I'm not quite ready for that yet!


----------



## craft_media_hero (May 15, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *erratum*
> 
> So I did it! I cruised around the bacon aisle at the grocery store for a while, but I chickened out every time, like I was buying condoms or nudey mags


 I am







at this! I totally agree. I felt like that when going into our local natural meats store--like I was going into an "adult bookstore" or something. I still feel kinda weird when checking out of the hfs with meat, like somehow the checkers know I "waffled" or smth.

Quote:


> That was a great article. It made me tear up reading it. Thanks.










Right! I have been thinking about it ever since.

Oh, people, we have chickens! They are in my downstairs bathroom right now while we build their new home. We have been calling them chocobos  I hope that they are all female. I don't want to deal with either giving a rooster away or biting the metaphorical bullet--my mom says if one's a boy, just name him "Dumpling"







but seriously I don't know if I'm ready to "give death" yet. Anyway, we should start getting some eggs late summer/early fall!

I am checking out that herd share--I'm actually excited to try cow milk again! A friend has a little farm and is doing a work trade for produce and may have goat milk available, too. So we will make feta or smth, I'm not sure I'd like straight goat milk, but maybe the kids will.

Dh and I are getting to the nitty gritty about how much meat we think we'll eat in the upcoming year and narrowing down farmers to go through--I've noticed that the cost for pastured vs. "natural" (being some amount of feed lot existence) is not prohibitive here for us to buy pastured--being like $30 or so for a bulk purchase. Gosh, meat is expensive! Sticking to $500 a year seems difficult if you eat meat frequently and buy quality. We have been eating meat maybe 2-3x/wk, and I have to say that I notice I feel hungry a lot more often and sooner after meals on veg days. So I would like to be comfortable in knowing that there's plenty in the freezer from one animal, kwim?

Anyway . . . .......I bought 3 squid steaks! They were like a dollar a piece. I figure we could slice them into whatsit, calamari strips or find a recipe online and grill them . . .Idk, I just want to be really open-minded and try new things, because formerly all meat was gross so now I'm trying to let go of pre-conceptions regarding food.


----------



## Keeta (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jkg*
> 
> I just recently found this thread and while I still haven't read through the whole thing, so many of you have so succinctly expressed what I have been thinking about the past couple months. I am so sad that my vegan diet dies not seem right for me any more. Part of me feels like perhaps I am not trying hard enough to make it work, but honestly, I no linger have the energy...and that is a big part of my problem. I am weak, tired, unmotivated, and my skin has felt like sandpaper. I just started letting some dairy and eggs back into my diet, and it seems to be helping with my skin (I'm guessing the fats?). I don't anticipate being ready to eat meat ever again, but in some way I wish I could. I have learned that I have been oh so judgmental and now that it is me weighing my ethics against what my body needs/wants, I am singing a different tune.


Hi Jen!!! Just wanted to say hey, and isn't it funny that our food journeys have been so parallel? Just wanted you to know that I'm cheering you on, no matter what path you choose. Adding meat back to our diet has been a good choice for us, but in many ways it has been an identity crisis. It's all change. Change is hard, but good. I'm still trying to harmonize all the different paths of wellness that I aspire to. But we each have to make our own song, right? Hugs!


----------



## jkg (May 28, 2005)

Holy WOW, Chessa, YES!! This thread has been very comforting to me and I so wish we didn't live hundreds of miles apart so we could discuss this in person. I am having a really hard time with it. Have your kids gone non-veg too? I made chicken Parmesan one day (I still can't bring myself to eat it, baby steps I guess) and my oldest wanted to know why we were eating that, and then why did I decide I wasn't going to. I did not have a good answer and talked in circles.







. Ugh. However, they LOVED it and they actually have color in their faces again. So I think I am on the right path. Now just to figure it out for myself...


----------



## Keeta (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jkg*
> 
> Holy WOW, Chessa, YES!! This thread has been very comforting to me and I so wish we didn't live hundreds of miles apart so we could discuss this in person. I am having a really hard time with it. Have your kids gone non-veg too? I made chicken Parmesan one day (I still can't bring myself to eat it, baby steps I guess) and my oldest wanted to know why we were eating that, and then why did I decide I wasn't going to. I did not have a good answer and talked in circles.
> 
> ...


Yeah, we've all jumped on/off the respective bandwagons.







It was some interesting conversation at first, to be sure. We mainly did it to see if it would help my DH deal with food sensitivities (I think he has leaky gut basically). The jury is still out whether it is helping, but it doesn't seem to be hurting him or making him worse, and he's no longer saying things like "I think the carrots set me off" - it seemed like a new vegetarian item a week was making him react and I was starting to pull my hair out trying to meal plan!

Ham is a big hit around here with everyone. Everyone more or less tolerates chicken (the tofu of meat, IMHO). I can really get into a good burger, my DH still has mental blocks on red meat but will tolerate it (just not relish it like I do!). I'd say I've had the easiest transition back. I just feel fuller, like I'm not hungry all the time or constantly eating dairy to fill me up (still eating dairy, just not as my main protein source). We eat a LOT of eggs, too. I'm rolling with it. We went pretty heavy on the meat the last two weeks - we tried grain free for DH for two weeks to see if it had any effect (it didn't - and it's a MAJOR pain and really expensive to do). I'm finding now that I'm craving some of my old veg standbys again. It's like I had to go off the meat deep-end for a while, get satiated, and now I'm finding a happy medium. It's been an adventure in meal planning, to be sure!

Silas says really funny stuff like, "Poor chicken....oh well, it had a good long life!" chomp chomp chomp


----------



## SandraMort (Jun 19, 2003)

It's so nice to talk to people who get it when i say I'm embarrassed to be seen shopping for meat or eating it in public... feels like driving past a synagogue on Saturday to me!


----------



## jkg (May 28, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SandraMort*
> 
> It's so nice to talk to people who get it when i say I'm embarrassed to be seen shopping for meat or eating it in public... feels like driving past a synagogue on Saturday to me!


I know what you mean!! I feel like a "closeted" dairy consumer. I find myself buying eggs and dairy and hiding them under other items in case I see anyone I know. How do you go about explaining your change of heart?


----------

