# Do you leave your child alone when you go to the restroom?



## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

The thread about letting kids go to the restroom got me wondering about this: Let's say you're the only adult with your child in a restaurant, and you need to go to the restroom. Do you leave your child sitting alone at the table?

My son just turned 4, and I've done this 3 times in the past few months, with no negative consequences. Once we were at a familiar local diner where he and the waitress are pals. Once we were in a crowded Panera in a suburb we rarely visit, seated at least 50 feet from the restroom with several barriers between. Once we were in a very homey family restaurant, in a totally unfamiliar place on a road trip, at the table right outside the restroom.

The odd thing is, my son normally hates to be alone and therefore wants to go everywhere with me. But it seems that when he's settled in a restaurant, either eating or drawing while he waits for the food, because there are other people within sight he doesn't feel he's being left alone.

I certainly would rather have privacy in the restroom than cram him into a stall with me. In a place like Panera where you choose your own table, I like having someone "guard" the table while I'm gone rather than leave a bunch of our stuff unattended to "mark our territory".









If you don't do this, why not?


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## reezley (May 27, 2006)

In the diner/waitress-pal scenario I would do it, but otherwise, I wouldn't. I wouldn't want to leave my 4yo unattended and vulnerable. I just bring everyone and all belongings with me into the bathroom (but not necessarily into the stall) either before or after sitting down.


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## Sagesgirl (Nov 22, 2001)

Nope. It's sometimes safe for my six-year-old to take her five-year-old sister into the bathroom, because it's a small, enclosed space which is easily monitored from the outside. The same cannot be said of a public place like a restaurant, especially a crowded one. With me in the bathroom, in a stall, I cannot _possibly_ keep an eye on my child out in the open dining room.

I'm not even really talking fear of kidnapping here, though certainly many children who in the past were kidnapped from a crowded public place were enticed away and stolen when the child's parents were distracted "just for a minute" (let alone in a completely different room from their child). There's plenty of painful/distressing/possibly dangerous things that could happen to my kid just sitting there. Panera serves hot soup and hot coffee. Restaurants with sit down service tend to mean servers carrying trays of food, none of which I want to risk being dropped on my child with me unawares. That's not even touching things like my kid spilling her drink on herself or possibly choking on her food.

I don't particularly _like_ to make restroom trips when it's just me & the kids, and in fact if I'm the only one who has to go I'll wait until we're all done eating & ready to leave. But I've left my food and some of my things on the table and come back to find it all there. My coat is an acceptable risk.


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

I've never thought about doing that . . . I think I'm part camel. We hardly spend any time at home, but I rarely use the restroom when we're out.

I think my six year old would be fine -- I let her go into the bathroom alone, so why not let her stay at a table alone -- but my 3 year old would probably get himself in trouble.


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## pink gal (Feb 27, 2008)

I always take my 4 yo DD with me. She would not like to be in a restaurant alone and I don't feel safe leaving her alone. I actually even take her into the stall with me. She is very shy and doesn't really like it if people she doesn't know talk to her. Women in restrooms are often very friendly and want to chat with her. Unfortunately that kind of overwhelms her.

If 12 yo DD is with us I'll leave the two of them together at the table.


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## luv-my-boys (Dec 8, 2008)

No. I personally dont feel comfortable leaving my children unattended for a variety of reasons but they are also young, teenagers later on yep! I just take them in to the bathroom with me often in the same stall depending on the surroundings and people there. I have often waited until our food arrives and then say to the waitress (if its a diner type) "where are your restrooms" even if I know where they are at. I've never had a problem with our food being cleared by mistake.


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## griffin2004 (Sep 25, 2003)

The thread about letting kids go to the restroom got me wondering about this: Let's say you're the only adult with your child in a restaurant, and you need to go to the restroom. Do you leave your child sitting alone at the table?
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My DD is 6. I don't leave her alone in any public place or let her go to the bathroom by herself. She would be fine with it, but I'm not.


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## Maluhia (Jun 24, 2007)

My God....I would NEVER leave my four year old unattended in a restaurant, never. I'd rather pee myself.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

You know, I don't think I ever went to a restaurant alone with a 4yo!







Money has always been tight, and going to a restaurant is generally a social thing that I'd do with another adult friend or relative. So we'd take turns going to the restroom, and generally I'll ask if anybody else needs to go when I do. Generally, my daughters needed to use the restroom as often as I did, so if we were all out (say, shopping) we'd simply go to the public restroom together. By the time DS was past toddlerhood, my daughters were old enough to watch him while I went to the restroom alone.

Given the above scenarios, I think I'd be comfortable in the family restaurant where I knew the waitress, but not the other two. I'd basically consider the waitress to be "babysitting" for those few minutes. I'd never leave a 4yo unsupervised, period. Things get a bit iffier with older kids. By age 9, I'd have no qualms about leaving the child alone at the table. At age 7 or 8, I'm really not sure.


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## 2lilsweetfoxes (Apr 11, 2005)

My daughter is 7 and I still will not leave her unattended in a public place. My kids come with me to the bathroom (and I often will do a potty-trip before we even sit down at a restaurant).

Scary to think that I used to go to the convenience store unattended at that age to buy candy. In a not-so-great neighborhood.


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## ilovebabies (Jun 7, 2008)

No, I most definitely wouldn't. Not even in a family restaurant where I knew the waitress. She's busy with her job and I wouldn't have her being responsible for my child.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

No I would not leave dd unattended at a table in a restaurant.


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## SquishyBuggles (Dec 19, 2008)

No, never.


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## Golden (Mar 15, 2002)

I wouldn't leave my just turned 4 year old alone in a restaurant.

I've left my 4.5 yr old with his 9 year old brother alone at a Bertucci's where our seats were just outside the bathroom door and the food had just arrived. But never alone.


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## zeldamomma (Jan 5, 2006)

I wouldn't leave a 4 year old alone. I now give my 8 and 6 year old the option of staying together without me, but that's recent and they haven't taken me up on it.


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## Haselnuss (Sep 20, 2008)

My oldest is 8 and I'm not sure I would feel comfortable doing this with her (since I only have girls, though, it isn't really an issue when I take them out). I let her play outside alone, visit the neighbor kids, etc., but that's in a familiar place surrounded by familiar people; I'd let my 6yo go to a public bathroom, but that's a closed space, with one exit. In either case, my child knows where to find me - I think that's the main issue. Left alone in the restaurant, if she needed to run from something/one, she wouldn't know exactly where to find me, and I'm not comfortable with that. It's more like leaving a child alone in the car, something I also wouldn't do with my 8yo.
If I bring them into a publc restroom, though, I certainly don't cram them in the stall with me. I have even my 4yo stand outside the stall (I can see her feet). 3 or so and younger I'd bring into the stall. How I would cram four kids in there, I don't know!


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

I would be way more likely to let my kids go into the restroom by themselves than to leave them in a public place while I went. I'm much less concerned about kidnapping than I am by a child wandering away.


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## OakBerry (May 24, 2005)

My 6 year old ds comes with me into the bathroom no matter where we are, unless there is somebody to watch him.


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

No, I don't. I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that.


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

There are restaurants where I would consider leaving my 3.5 yo at the table, but most places I wouldn't. People's comfort level really varies. I had someone comment that I should have dd in the stall with me when she was just outside the bathroom door talking loudly with her friend and I could hear everything.


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OakBerry* 
My 6 year old ds comes with me into the bathroom no matter where we are, unless there is somebody to watch him.

Yeah that. No way would I leave my 6 year old at a table in a restaurant by himself.


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## Justmee (Jun 6, 2005)

I would't leave my kids alone in a restarunt yet (almost 5yo twins, 3.5yo dd, obviously not the baby). I can't imagine being comfortable with it. I only just this week left them in the restroom with me (not in the stall) while I went *very* quckly. Before that, everyone came in. We went out a few times this week though since my parents were in town, so I had the girls go first and then wait outside my stall together while I went quckly.


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## ZanZansMommy (Nov 8, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SquishyBuggles* 
No, never.









:


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## SAHDS (Mar 28, 2008)

Nope, not yet.


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## EviesMom (Nov 30, 2004)

No, I don't think I would. I go before we sit down, or I just don't go. I left nearly-5 yo DD at a table at the ski resort restaurant while I got in line to order, but I could see her and talk to her the whole time, and with the layout, she couldn't leave nor be taken out without walking by me. I also don't make her come in the stall. I think I've even left DS asleep in the stroller, brakes on, outside the stall when the bathroom isn't crowded. If I can hear if someone's talking to them and see their legs and the wheels of the stroller, I figure it's okay. That's my comfort level though.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
The thread about letting kids go to the restroom got me wondering about this: Let's say you're the only adult with your child in a restaurant, and you need to go to the restroom. Do you leave your child sitting alone at the table?

My son just turned 4, and I've done this 3 times in the past few months, with no negative consequences. Once we were at a familiar local diner where he and the waitress are pals. *Once we were in a crowded Panera in a suburb we rarely visit, seated at least 50 feet from the restroom with several barriers between.* Once we were in a very homey family restaurant, in a totally unfamiliar place on a road trip, at the table right outside the restroom.

The odd thing is, my son normally hates to be alone and therefore wants to go everywhere with me. But it seems that when he's settled in a restaurant, either eating or drawing while he waits for the food, because there are other people within sight he doesn't feel he's being left alone.

I certainly would rather have privacy in the restroom than cram him into a stall with me. In a place like Panera where you choose your own table, I like having someone "guard" the table while I'm gone rather than leave a bunch of our stuff unattended to "mark our territory".









If you don't do this, why not?

And you honestly think that is okay? Wow.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Most of you are not answering my question WHY NOT? What is it that you think would happen to a child left by himself for 3 minutes in a room with other restaurant patrons and staff?

Concerns about hot food and choking make sense to me. I don't think of them as really likely problems, given my son's coordination and sensibleness plus the likelihood that someone would help him, but these are possibilities that I did worry about while I was in the bathroom. I don't see them as any more likely in a restaurant than at home, though, and at home I'll sometimes go to another room or even another floor while he's eating.

We eat in restaurants embarrassingly often, and he knows how to behave, so I'm not concerned that he'll cause a ruckus in just a few minutes.

He's not the wandering kind. Each time, I told him to stay at the table, but I also pointed out exactly how to get to the restroom in case of emergency.

I did think the situation at Panera was highly questionable. That time I tried to get him to come with me, we argued until I was about to wet my pants, and I gave up because he was making sense ("I am not spilling. I will be careful. If anybody asks, I'll tell them you are coming right back.") and I wasn't ("But you can't sit at a table and eat bread ALL ALONE!"). My main concern was not that he would come to any harm, but that somebody would freak out at me.

One reason I started this thread was to assess the likelihood of somebody freaking out at me. Looks like it's high.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

At 4, probably only in the situation where we were comfortable and peolple knew us. Mostly because at 4 no one (well, most no ones) is going to complain about opposite sex child in restroom. HOwever, my DS is now 9. NOt only is he incredibly uncomfortable in the ladies room, but others are uncomfortable as well. So at this point yes, he would stay at the table in a restaurant, and outside of the ladies room anywhere else. I think we started that routine at about 6 or so. I am frequently out with DS and DD and without DH, so this has become routine. I can't say that I like it, but it seems to be part of the deal of having a boy child. I am confident that he would know how to react should someone approach him, and I am also aware that the probability for something like that actually happening well nigh zero.


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
Most of you are not answering my question WHY NOT? What is it that you think would happen to a child left by himself for 3 minutes in a room with other restaurant patrons and staff?.

Aside from the obvious choking and spilling dangers, which may not even be an issue depending on the situation, I am mostly concerned about other customers harassing my daughter. We have some of the agressively nosy type of stranger around here, who would loudly start interrogating dd, and possibly telling her that I'm a bad mother for leaving her alone, and maybe (remote possibility) even try to drag her to management to report that she's been left alone. Or, she could encounter the type of person who likes to try to feed other people's kids completely innapropriate foods. There are just a lot of possible scenarios that would be uncomfortable for dd.

If I can either see or hear what's going on, or if I'm in a quiet restaurant where I'm familiar and comfortable with the staff, I would consider leaving dd alone for a moment.


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## crazydiamond (May 31, 2005)

No, I wouldn't, even if we knew all the waitstaff. I don't think I'd feel comfortable with that for at least a few more years. But I'm usually out with both kids at the same time. It's a pain getting DD and the baby up to go to the bathroom, so I make a point of stopping by on my way in the place. That way, we don't have our meal interrupted by any of us needing to go.


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## honeybunmom (Jan 11, 2007)

My child is a bit younger, just turned 3 in October, and I would not. I just don't think it's in her best interest, as her mother, for me to leave her unattended for any period of time. Just last she was here at my office and we went to the cafeteria for lunch. I needed to get a knife. I started to walk away from her to get it and turned back to get her. It is a crowded place, accessable by anyone. I don't think it is safe for my child to be left unattended, so, that's why not for me.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

nope, I can't see doing that. Why not take the kid with you?

I honestly can't see my kids letting me get away with that, anyhow. Even when DH is with us, as soon as I stand up to go to the restroom, suddenly every single child has to pee as well







:

The only thing I can think of was when we were at a burger king (just me and the kids) and my older two were at the top of the playstructure (in a separate room of the restaurant) and my 3rd had to go to the bathroom right then. He was starting to go in his pants, so I grabbed my youngest (baby at that time) and asked the employee who was cleaning tables to keep an eye on my older two kids. It would have taken a long time to get them to come down, get shoes on, etc., and I didn't have spare clothes. The bathroom was fairly small, I did stand there at the door holding it open so I could clearly see the play area at all times.

That's to the extent which I can imagine being comfortable with at this point (and I'm pretty much not over-protective or paranoid)


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## riversong (Aug 11, 2005)

I wouldn't leave my 4 yo dd alone in a restaurant for two reasons: 1. She might walk away from the table and not be able to find her way back. 2. Someone might bother or abduct her. I know the abduction scenario is really unlikely, but it's possible and I'd never forgive myself if someone walked off with her. The story of Adam Walsh is always in the back of my mind. He was 6 when he was abducted in from a department store. His mom was nearby in another section of the store.


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## zeldamomma (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
Most of you are not answering my question WHY NOT? What is it that you think would happen to a child left by himself for 3 minutes in a room with other restaurant patrons and staff?


I wouldn't do it for a couple reasons-- the first is that I would be concerned that some kind of situation would develop in the restaurant that my child couldn't handle alone (nosy stranger, fire, someone knocking into our table and spilling our food, none of these things individually are all that likely, any one of them could be a big deal for a 4 y.o.). The second is that I would worry that there would be a line for the bathroom or another problem that caused me to be away longer than I expected, and my child or a concerned adult might be concerned about my absence.

I guess I don't understand why this is a recurring issue-- couldn't you go to the bathroom before you order, so your child could come along without having to leave his food?

You mention a concern that someone will freak out at you-- if I were you, I would be much more concerned that someone would freak out about your child being alone while you are gone, leaving him to deal with it alone. I would also look into whether or not it's legal to leave a child alone in a public place like that.

ZM


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## daniedb (Aug 8, 2004)

Henry is incredibly reliable, I could probably have him babysit the two littles if I had an emergency (turned 5 in December), and I wouldn't leave him at a table by himself, no way, no how. The reasons are:

-He's still 5. I don't care how reliable and mature he is, and he totally is, I've never met a kid like him, he's still FIVE.







Out of nowhere, he will randomly do things that don't even make sense to him, much less to me. Last week, he pushed the cat into the bathtub that was full of water. And this is the kindest kid ever. He had no explanation for why, it was just irresistible to him at the moment. It is unfair to _him_ to expect him to have the ability to keep himself safe for that long, with no one looking after him. If something happened, he would blame himself forever. Who knows what awesome thing could happen to prod him to lose his focus and prompt him to think, "Just this one time, I'll just step outside/talk to this person/look out the window..."

-People suck. There are some people who look for vulnerable kids, that's all there is to it. It's rare, but it exists. I'd rather have him walk with me to the bathroom and eliminate that one time he's exposed.

-What if something happened to me? Again, a small risk, but one that is simple to eliminate.

Mainly, it's the first reason that weighs the most heavily in my decision, although I've never really thought about it until now. I mean, the kid is FIVE. Teenagers make really stupid decisions. Hell, *I* make stupid decisions, and I'm almost 30 years older than he is. There's plenty of time for him to be on his own, there will be a time very, very soon when he will refuse to come into the bathroom with me, or it will be socially inappropriate. Why rush it?


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## lovesdaffodils (Jul 11, 2007)

It's never occurred to me to leave my four-year-old when I went to the restroom. He always comes with me and into the stall with me. As for why not, well, first of all, if I get up to do anything, he'd want to come with me anyway, he just always does. And he IS a wanderer so if he did manage to let me go to the bathroom, he'd be likely to get interested in whatever and just roam around the restaurant. And to some extent, I would worry about other patrons freaking out that I left him there alone.


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## OakBerry (May 24, 2005)

I agree with daniedb, when my son was 4 he was pretty responsible and not the sort to go running off. But once he did run off, and totally freaked me out. I was complacent because he had never, ever done that in the past.

Plus, I also know that the abduction scenario is not likely, but why present an opportunity by leaving a small child alone. At age 6, it's not likely that my ds would go off with a stranger. He knows about "stranger danger" and such.
At age 4, if somebody offered him a toy, he'd follow, I'm sure.


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## greenmamapagan (Jan 5, 2008)

Interesting thread, thanks EB for starting it. It's not something I do now (DD is only 2 & 2/3) but it _is_ something I think about often. DD was EC'd from 6 weeks and a grad by 18 months, she has _much[/I better bladder control than me and now I'm pregnant I need to go at least 5 times for each time she goes. She gets (understandably) incredibly cranky about always being dragged into the cubicle with me so while I don't see any other solution at this point, I do often wonder at what age I'll start leaving her for a moment. I can see that there are situations (such as local cafe/restaurant where we know the staff etc) where I probably will leave her as young as 4 and maybe even a little younger but others where I'll insist she comes with me at least to outside the cubicle for much much longer._


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
The thread about letting kids go to the restroom got me wondering about this: Let's say you're the only adult with your child in a restaurant, and you need to go to the restroom. Do you leave your child sitting alone at the table?

My son just turned 4, and I've done this 3 times in the past few months, with no negative consequences. Once we were at a familiar local diner where he and the waitress are pals. Once we were in a crowded Panera in a suburb we rarely visit, seated at least 50 feet from the restroom with several barriers between. Once we were in a very homey family restaurant, in a totally unfamiliar place on a road trip, at the table right outside the restroom.

The odd thing is, my son normally hates to be alone and therefore wants to go everywhere with me. But it seems that when he's settled in a restaurant, either eating or drawing while he waits for the food, because there are other people within sight he doesn't feel he's being left alone.

I certainly would rather have privacy in the restroom than cram him into a stall with me. In a place like Panera where you choose your own table, I like having someone "guard" the table while I'm gone rather than leave a bunch of our stuff unattended to "mark our territory".









If you don't do this, why not?

When mine were this age, I would not do it in a mall food court (too easy for kids to wander and get lost), but would have no problem with it in a small restaurant or cafe where we knew the staff and the staff knew us.


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

Definitely not. Especially in the Panera setting you described. Not only would I be afraid of a pedophile or whatever trying to take him, I would also be afraid that a waiter/waitress or another diner might see him sitting alone and make a big issue about it when I returned.

Honestly, I'm finding it hard to understand why any parent would leave their 4-year-old at a table alone in a busy restaurant while they go to a remote bathroom.


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## Kells97 (Dec 28, 2008)

I can't imagine leaving my dd alone in a public place like a restaurant. Part of the reason is that I know she would feel insecure and frightened as she is not ready to be left alone. But even if she was fine with it, I wouldn't leave her, not because of anything specific I think might happen to her but rather because there really wouldn't be any reason not to take her with me.


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

I'd never be in this situation since we very rarely eat out and if we do it's the whole family or at least me and the children all together.







If I were alone with my youngest then I would take my child with me to the bathroom simply because I know my DD (age 6) would not want to stay alone.

I also think it would look bad to do that in front of other people. It would also depend on the restaurant. If it's fast food like McD's then no way!


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## doctormom (Nov 11, 2005)

I wouldn't, not ever. DS will be 5 next month, and while he is a really smart kid, he is also impetuous and distractable. I'll let him stay at the table alone while I walk 20 feet away to refill my drink (without ever leaving his line of sight) but I wouldn't go to the restroom without him.

To the OP:
Would you leave your purse or your laptop unattended at the table? Most people _are_ honest, and it's just for a few minutes, and you're coming right back. If you wouldn't, then are you _really_ comfortable leaving your son alone under the same circumstances - he is surely far more important to you than the mundane, replaceable contents of your purse. I'm not trying to be snarky here, I'm just genuinely puzzled by the scenario you described.

If I was about to pee my pants and my DS was being totally uncooperative, I might - in an emergency - consider asking a nearby family with children to please keep an eye on DS for 3 minutes while I sprinted to the bathroom and back. But I would be totally uncomfortable the whole time, and I have never actually done this. I just think it might be a perferable option to leaving a child unattended with _no one_ watching them.


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## Shera971 (Nov 26, 2008)

My son is 3.5 and I would never leave him alone in a restaurant.

And I don't really understand why some posters are 'qualifying' the restaurants they would or wouldn't leave their children. Just b/c you know the wait staff or have been there before doesn't mean that your child is necessarily safe. I guess I've seen too many bad movies...


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## NicaG (Jun 16, 2006)

My ds is almost 4, and I wouldn't do it. It would be so easy for someone to walk away with him. Kids that age are so trusting...it would be frighteningly easy to convince a child to go with someone. Even if you "know" the waitstaff....do you really know anything about them or their background? And is the waitstaff really paying any attention to who's talking to your kid? How do they know the difference between a friend of yours talking to your kid and a stranger trying to abduct your kid talking to him? I'm not "freaking out" at the OP, I just don't understand why you would take this risk. Personally, I wouldn't.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *doctormom* 
Would you leave your purse or your laptop unattended at the table? Most people _are_ honest, and it's just for a few minutes, and you're coming right back. If you wouldn't, then are you _really_ comfortable leaving your son alone under the same circumstances - he is surely far more important to you than the mundane, replaceable contents of your purse.

But this argument really doesn't hold up. There are far, far more people interested in your wallet than your child. And it is easier to take a wallet than a kid. AND far, far easier to "use" or profit from stealing a wallet or laptop than a child. Statistically your child is much safer than your easy-to-steal and easy-to-sell possessions.


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## griffin2004 (Sep 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
One reason I started this thread was to assess the likelihood of somebody freaking out at me. Looks like it's high.

I think it's really dismissive to describe the legitimate concerns expressed in this thread as "freaking out." Who wouldn't at least take concerned notice if a parent walked off and left a young child alone in public? And that's how it would look no matter how briefly the parent intended to be gone or how mature the child was.


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## SAHDS (Mar 28, 2008)

Why not?

Because I absolutely refuse to be that person on the news or in the newspaper who is adamantly saying "But I was only gone for a second!"

I'm just not the it-won't-happen-to-me kind of person because 'it' does happen. Every day, every where.

Better safe than sorry, I suppose.


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## kay4 (Nov 30, 2004)

no I don't. I will let my 14 or 11 yo take my 4 yo to the restroom if it is within eye shot of where I am sitting. I will leave my older girls at the table while I use the restroom and take the younger 2 (7 and 4) with me. I have them stand outside the stall so I can see their feet. It only takes a minute for something to happen.


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## tallulahma (Jun 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SAHDS* 
Why not?

Because I absolutely refuse to be that person on the news or in the newspaper who is adamantly saying "But I was only gone for a second!"

I'm just not the it-won't-happen-to-me kind of person because 'it' does happen. Every day, every where.

Better safe than sorry, I suppose.

exactly.

especially since i was kidnapped at a park 5 feet from my teacher in a sea of kids.

nope.

unlikely scenario? absolutely.

impossible? no.

i also do not leave my 3.5 year old alone in the tub... im way strict like that.


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## Kittymom (May 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
My main concern was not that he would come to any harm, but that somebody would freak out at me.

One reason I started this thread was to assess the likelihood of somebody freaking out at me. Looks like it's high.

That sounds like me, too. I give my son a lot of independence for his age, and have left him at a table while I went to the bathroom since he was three. I also let him run ahead of me when we are walking places. He won't run into the street because I spent a lot of time teaching him not to. He's almost 5 now, and is allowed to walk across the very quiet street next to our house to see if a friend is home. (I confess that I am still watching out the window to make sure he is never forgetting to carefully look both ways. This is a recently earned privilege.)

People freak out at me semi-regularly, and I find it sad. In reality, the odds of getting kidnapped are extremely low. Yes, it happens. Most kidnappings, though, are by someone a child knows, and usually by another family member. The real crazies...they are out there, yes, but I won't let them dictate how we live any more than I will condone signing away our civil liberties because of one terrorist attack. The odds are low of anything happening, and the price is high in terms of how much it has changed how we relate to our children and teach them to relate to other people in our society.

Plus, there are risks to taking kids into a public bathroom stall. Those places tend to be filthy, and I think the risk of catching a stomach bug or the like should be weighed into the analysis, too.

Ultimately, though, I really do believe it is for each parent to decide which things to be most cautious about and that the people who are freaking out need to understand this and know that we know our own kids. I can trust my son not to wander off or spill something hot on himself.


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## TwinsTwicePlusTwo (Dec 7, 2008)

I give my kids a lot more freedom than most parents do. I let my 9yos ride their bikes unsupervised all over our safe little town (during daylight hours). I'll send my 11yo to the corner store (three blocks away) and let her baby-sit her younger siblings for hours at a time.

But I would never leave my twin 4yos alone in a restaurant while I went to the bathroom, nor would I have left any of my other children alone in a public place when they were 4, not even my ultra-responsible super-child (meaning Beth, lol). Why? Because a 4yo doesn't have the impulse control to be alone in such a stimulating and potentially dangerous place. My concerns would be for them getting into trouble or wandering off, not kidnapping. Even my 7yo is iffy because she's not particularly mature for her age.

Of course, if one of my older three is there to supervise, it's not a big deal.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
The thread about letting kids go to the restroom got me wondering about this: Let's say you're the only adult with your child in a restaurant, and you need to go to the restroom. Do you leave your child sitting alone at the table?

Oddly enough, a situation like this has never come up. I have left my daughter in a movie theater when she was 8 to take my 4 year old to a restroom.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

A just turned 4 year old - no, definitely not. My 12 year old - yes. My 8 year old - would depend on the restaurant (size, location, how far the restroom was from our table, our familiarity with it).

Could choke, could slip and conk his head on the table, could break the water glass with an overzealous silverware stirring (mine can't be the only kids who like to stir their water), could bother other patrons with kicking feet or incessant questions or loud singing or ?, could put a foot outside the booth and accidentally trip a waiter, could lose a crayon under the table and break into tears, could decide they aren't ok with being alone anymore and try to find mom - and get lost in the process, could be seen by someone not as ok with it as the OP and have the cops called, could be in the wrong place at the wrong time and have someone who overheard you tell your child that you were going to the bathroom that he or she was asked by his mommy to bring you to her as a ruse to take him, mom could fall and hit her head and be taken off with no one realizing she had a child at a table elsewhere in the restaurant (I'll admit this one is pretty unlikely), could be subjected to an ugly conversation between mom and restaurant staff or patron who strongly disagrees with a barely 4 year old being left alone.

Barely four - some kids aren't even potty trained at that age! Mine were responsible little kids too - but it doesn't mean we should leave them alone in public without us. He didn't want to go - but you had to. Mom is the adult and safety is more important than his wish to be left at the table. Might not be GD but if you don't have all day to go over the merits of your point of view, then it is "because I need you to" and you can discuss it more later.


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

it would depend on how are away the toilets were from our table, how far our table wads from the door, how big and busy the restaurant were.

once i went out to lunch when my youngest was a small baby and my others were 3 and 5 and i needed the toilet which was upstairs. as the littlest was asleep in the pram it was impossible to take her with me, so i asked if a waitress could sit with them while i went to the toilet, the restaurant were very kind and she sat at the table with the children and chatted with them while i went to the toilet (i think she appreciated the opportunity to sit down!!)

another time at my local pub there was a table next to us with 2 older ladies at who we had been chatting to who offered to watch the baby while she slept while i went to the bathroom with my older child, i also was very familiar with the staff at the pub too. in both cases i my gut feeling was that they were safe situations to leave the children, which is all usually use to make decisions regarding the ell being of my children, if it feels wrong it is wrong.

but as for leaving them alone it depends on a lot of variables.


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *doctormom* 
To the OP:
Would you leave your purse or your laptop unattended at the table? Most people _are_ honest, and it's just for a few minutes, and you're coming right back. If you wouldn't, then are you _really_ comfortable leaving your son alone under the same circumstances - he is surely far more important to you than the mundane, replaceable contents of your purse. I'm not trying to be snarky here, I'm just genuinely puzzled by the scenario you described.

good point.


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## zeldamomma (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom* 
But this argument really doesn't hold up. There are far, far more people interested in your wallet than your child. And it is easier to take a wallet than a kid. AND far, far easier to "use" or profit from stealing a wallet or laptop than a child. Statistically your child is much safer than your easy-to-steal and easy-to-sell possessions.

But the consequences of having your easy-to-steal possessions taken or damaged are NOTHING compared to the consequences of a child be taken or hurt. Personally, I don't worry about my kids getting abducted but I think are a lot of opportunities for an unsupervised 4 year old to make some random bad decision that could either get them seriously hurt or really scared, and I think as parents we need to remember that it's our job to keep our kids safe, and that's worth the inconvenience of leaving our lunch unsupervised.

FWIW, I was depressed for a little while, and one of the symptoms for me (and then, OH JOY one of the side effects of the meds my doctor had me take) was that my gut-feeling in situations like this became completely unreliable. If you really can't see why the Panera situation in particular wasn't the best choice, then you might want to take depression screen and make sure you're functioning the way you'd like to be. I'm sorry if this comes across as "if you don't agree with me you must be crazy"-- I only mention it because I kind of wish someone had pointed it out to me when I made my first questionable decision.

ZM


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## Qestia (Sep 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *doctormom* 
To the OP:
Would you leave your purse or your laptop unattended at the table? Most people _are_ honest, and it's just for a few minutes, and you're coming right back. If you wouldn't, then are you _really_ comfortable leaving your son alone under the same circumstances - he is surely far more important to you than the mundane, replaceable contents of your purse. I'm not trying to be snarky here, I'm just genuinely puzzled by the scenario you described.

I try to keep that rule of thumb in mind in public with DS--am I protecting him as much as I'm proteccting my purse? Because he's infinitely more precious to me. It will be many years before I would be comfortable in the situation the OP describes, heck, I barely get to pee alone at home, DS still follows me!


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## 1xmom (Dec 30, 2003)

My dd will be 9 soon and I am just starting to leave her alone in a restaurant.


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## jjawm (Jun 17, 2007)

Nope, not until they're much older. 4 is too young.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

No, I wouldn't. And I don't feel the need to justify that by giving a "good enough" reason.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *doctormom* 
To the OP:
Would you leave your purse or your laptop unattended at the table? Most people _are_ honest, and it's just for a few minutes, and you're coming right back. If you wouldn't, then are you _really_ comfortable leaving your son alone under the same circumstances - he is surely far more important to you than the mundane, replaceable contents of your purse. I'm not trying to be snarky here, I'm just genuinely puzzled by the scenario you described.

Yes, I would leave my laptop or purse unattended at the table in the same sort of cafe or restaurant that I would leave my child unattended at the table. There are not the sort of place that someone could take my laptop, purse or child and walk out without being noticed or challenged.

And, in years of doing so, I have never had purse, laptop or child stolen or damaged.


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## SquishyBuggles (Dec 19, 2008)

I really don't think anyone is 'freaking out' on you. You asked a question and I'm sure you knew that most people wouldn't be comfortable leaving a 4-year-old unattended in a restaurant.

To answer your question I wouldn't feel comfortable for a myriad of reasons. My 4 year old is very reliable and responsible for her age, but come ON...she's 4! I don't trust other people. Why take the risk of something bad happening to your child when you can easily prevent it? I wouldn't want my child to get hurt. I wouldn't want someone harassing her. It isn't a hardship to take a kid into the bathroom with you. Maybe I'm overprotective but I'd rather not risk it.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
The thread about letting kids go to the restroom got me wondering about this: Let's say you're the only adult with your child in a restaurant, and you need to go to the restroom. Do you leave your child sitting alone at the table?

My son just turned 4, and I've done this 3 times in the past few months, with no negative consequences. Once we were at a familiar local diner where he and the waitress are pals. Once we were in a crowded Panera in a suburb we rarely visit, seated at least 50 feet from the restroom with several barriers between. Once we were in a very homey family restaurant, in a totally unfamiliar place on a road trip, at the table right outside the restroom.

The odd thing is, my son normally hates to be alone and therefore wants to go everywhere with me. But it seems that when he's settled in a restaurant, either eating or drawing while he waits for the food, because there are other people within sight he doesn't feel he's being left alone.

I certainly would rather have privacy in the restroom than cram him into a stall with me. In a place like Panera where you choose your own table, I like having someone "guard" the table while I'm gone rather than leave a bunch of our stuff unattended to "mark our territory".









If you don't do this, why not?


I would never leave a 4yo unattended/out of my sight in a public place.

I would rather let my 4yo go into a bathroom unattended. That is an enclosed space, where I can easily see who is in there and then stand by the door.

Mama, I respect your parenting choices. Maybe it is different knowledge, different location, different experience? But I would never, ever do that. I might do it for a teenager (13 and up).

I think the average age of abduction is 7 for girls and 11 for boys.

An abducted child has, on average, 3 hours to live. Then 75% of children are killed after the 3hr mark.


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## interested (Apr 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
Yes, I would leave my laptop or purse unattended at the table in the same sort of cafe or restaurant that I would leave my child unattended at the table. There are not the sort of place that someone could take my laptop, purse or child and walk out without being noticed or challenged.

And, in years of doing so, I have never had purse, laptop or child stolen or damaged.

Somewhat off-topic, but I agree with this. And I am NOT an idealist. I spend a lot of time in coffee shops and small restaurants and I actually think it's the norm.

DS is 5. The situation EB described does happen - maybe not frequently, but occasionally. He has become self-conscious about being in the women's restroom. Because he really does stay put, and is a responsible kid, and has absorbed discussions both at home and at school about talking to strangers, I feel comfortable leaving him at our table for two or three minutes. It's not a situation where I would fix my hair and lipstick, but I don't feel a whole lot of anxiety, honestly.

However, posters have brought up a good point. I never considered that someone could "freak out" at my son while I was gone, or even at me in a way that would be obvious to him when I returned. He would be so embarrassed to be the subject of conflict between mom and somebody he doesn't even know. It might be something that I should discuss with him, actually. He's like me - he likes to know all (OK - as many as we can) of the possibilities and plan how to react to them in advance.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

*Why would I not go to the bathroom before or after the meal, instead of in the middle?* Usually I do! But when one of us is very hungry and it's a place where food takes a while to come, I think it's wise to order first. The time at Panera, I was not aware of needing to go when we arrived, and then as my child continued to eat slowly after I was finished, I suddenly felt like I was about to explode! (Too much coffee, probably.)

*Why don't I just make him come into the bathroom with me?* I always suggest it. Sometimes he resists because he's busy eating or drawing and doesn't want to be interrupted. At our neighborhood diner, he dislikes the restroom because of their weird-smelling disinfectant and because it is so small (about 6'x8' but with 2 stalls crammed in) that we rarely escape it without my banging him into something, and he can't avoid touching things so has to wash his hands but doesn't want to stay in there long enough--so it's a big hassle for me. Also, as I mentioned, I like to have somebody at the table so the staff and other patrons know we haven't abandoned it, so it's tempting to let my child take this role since he seems able to manage it. (When I came out of the restroom at the family restaurant, he was telling the waitress that Mama would like more coffee, please.







)

*Would I leave my purse unattended at the table?* Yes, I sometimes do this, like Choli.

Rachel's Mama wrote:

Quote:

I am mostly concerned about other customers harassing my daughter. We have some of the agressively nosy type of stranger around here, who would loudly start interrogating dd, and possibly telling her that I'm a bad mother for leaving her alone, and maybe (remote possibility) even try to drag her to management to report that she's been left alone. Or, she could encounter the type of person who likes to try to feed other people's kids completely innapropriate foods. There are just a lot of possible scenarios that would be uncomfortable for dd.
That's a good point. My son would be upset about those things, too. Although he has a lot of practice with nosy strangers because we ride public transit every day, and although we've talked about how you don't have to tolerate people making you uncomfortable and you don't take food from random people, he is not very good at sticking up for himself and might be quite upset even by a 3-minute encounter.

Griffin2004 wrote:

Quote:

I think it's really dismissive to describe the legitimate concerns expressed in this thread as "freaking out." Who wouldn't at least take concerned notice if a parent walked off and left a young child alone in public?
I didn't say anyone here was freaking out. I said I was wondering how likely it was that someone I would encounter in a restaurant would freak out, by which I mean either an extreme reaction directed at me (screaming, threatening) or treating the situation as an immediate emergency (calling 911 before making any attempt to locate me). I can understand taking concerned notice. If I saw a young child left alone in a public place (and not in any distress) I would NOTICE and keep noticing until the parent returned, but I would wait at least 10 minutes before even going over to ask the child what's up, I would speak calmly to the parent, and I would not call 911 unless the child needed emergency medical attention or the parent couldn't be located. That's the type of reaction I'd like to expect from society at large, but because I know some people think certain things are far more risky than I do, I wanted to collect some opinions on this particular scenario.

Kittymom wrote:

Quote:

I give my son a lot of independence for his age, and have left him at a table while I went to the bathroom since he was three. I also let him run ahead of me when we are walking places. He won't run into the street because I spent a lot of time teaching him not to. He's almost 5 now, and is allowed to walk across the very quiet street next to our house to see if a friend is home.








I let my son run ahead because he has demonstrated, since his very first walk on the sidewalk when he was 15 months old, that he knows we stop when we get to the curb. We have talked a lot about cars and safety, and although he sometimes argues about holding my hand or walking right next to me, he always waits for me before crossing and has never objected to it. I can see him being ready to cross quiet streets alone a year from now; I was 5 when I began doing that.

Quote:

The real crazies...they are out there, yes, but I won't let them dictate how we live any more than I will condone signing away our civil liberties because of one terrorist attack. The odds are low of anything happening, and the price is high in terms of how much it has changed how we relate to our children and teach them to relate to other people in our society.








Something I often think about in these discussions is that other parents seem to be very frightened of and/or disgusted by public places and strangers. I just don't feel that way. Despite being rather shy, I've always enjoyed public places and the idea of being a member of the public that shares these places. I actually feel kind of offended by revulsion toward "the public" because that includes me!

Kirsten wrote:

Quote:

could break the water glass with an overzealous silverware stirring (mine can't be the only kids who like to stir their water)
Mine is not allowed to stir his water, particularly in restaurants, where we hold him to a higher standard of behavior. That doesn't mean he'll never attempt it when I'm not looking, and just because he's so coordinated doesn't mean he won't manage to break the glass...but if that happened, I would look at it as a learning experience: The natural consequences of breaking the rule are that you might embarrass yourself by making a mess, you might get cold and wet, you might break the restaurant's glass and feel guilty, and you might even get cut on broken glass. The odds of his being cut severely enough to be really endangered are so low that I'm willing to risk letting him experience the consequences if he breaks this rule. The same goes for most other scenarios in which he might get hurt at the table.

Zeldamomma wrote:

Quote:

FWIW, I was depressed for a little while, and one of the symptoms for me (and then, OH JOY one of the side effects of the meds my doctor had me take) was that my gut-feeling in situations like this became completely unreliable. If you really can't see why the Panera situation in particular wasn't the best choice, then you might want to take depression screen and make sure you're functioning the way you'd like to be.
No, like I said, I thought it was highly questionable, and I worried while I was away. Although he was fine, I continued to feel unsettled about it afterward--because of the distance from table to restroom, the crowd in which he could've bumped into someone or had hot food or a heavy mug dropped on him if he'd gone looking for me, and the confusing layout in which he might have gotten lost.

Interested wrote:

Quote:

I never considered that someone could "freak out" at my son while I was gone, or even at me in a way that would be obvious to him when I returned. He would be so embarrassed to be the subject of conflict between mom and somebody he doesn't even know. It might be something that I should discuss with him, actually.
Yes, discuss it! Over a year ago, my son tried to get me to leave him in the car in the parking lot of Lowe's after dark because he was tired of shopping, and I told him I could not do that because if someone saw him, they would think his parents had abandoned him and he needed helpers to take care of him, so they would call the police, and then I would get into a lot of trouble and "we might not get to be together for WEEKS before it was all straightened out." I hoped this would be a better strategy than telling him he's not safe, which I think is very disempowering. He quickly agreed to come into the store because he did not like the idea of being apart from me for a long time. Since then, if he doesn't want to get out of the car and is negotiating, he'll mention that staying there alone isn't an option because the police would come.

Well, last weekend, our shopping took longer than expected, and we needed to get somewhere else very quickly, so as I drove toward our house I said, "I'm going to put the bags right inside the front door, tell Daddy to put away the groceries, pick up the other bag, and come right back. You can stay in the car." He said, "Okay, put down the window." I said, "What?! It's too cold for that!" He said, "Yeah, but if anybody asks, I can tell them you'll be right back and don't call the police."


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## tallulahma (Jun 16, 2006)

i love public places... community. I do not teach my child to fear these situations. but leaving them alone is different from giving them independence. imho.

i agree that the scenario of an adult walking off with your child is low. but tell that to john walsh.... or my mom.

i think being aware of the setting (trusted vs new & chaotic) and intuition are huge.

I just feel as though maybe people are thinking that those of us saying never are the overreacting type.

i do not think i over react, unfortunately. maybe its bc i was 5 when it happened & was old enough to be safe in this type of situation. I just wanted to add that.

I think there is a very big difference between making fear based decisions and weighing the risks with personal comfort.

my 3.5 yo is so trusting... and independent, i trust her fully. but i cannot say for certain that she wouldnt use 3 yr old logic when faced with , "hey i just ran into your mom, she is outside at the jumping castle and says you can come out and jump!" from a nice looking stranger.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I wouldn't, but part of that is because, particularly at 4, I'd be afraid she'd get scared. She wouldn't be comfortable with it either.

At 6, I have her stand in the bathroom while I'm in there still. It isn't a huge deal for me but I can't think of a time where I've left her alone in a restaurant. And, again, I think she'd prefer to be with me as well.

Kids are so seldom abducted that it isn't really the reason I wouldn't leave her there. I'd be more worried of her getting scared, getting into mischief, or someone calling the police on me or something.

We don't go out to eat just the two of us very often either so this isn't something that comes up often.


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## *Erin* (Mar 18, 2002)

nope. never. not even at the rest. dh works at where everyone knows us and would watch her. no matter where we are eating out, i will leave our stuff, except my purse, and take the kids.


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## ernalala (Mar 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
*
Interested wrote:Yes, discuss it! Over a year ago, my son tried to get me to leave him in the car in the parking lot of Lowe's after dark because he was tired of shopping, and I told him I could not do that because if someone saw him, they would think his parents had abandoned him and he needed helpers to take care of him, so they would call the police, and then I would get into a lot of trouble and "we might not get to be together for WEEKS before it was all straightened out." I hoped this would be a better strategy than telling him he's not safe, which I think is very disempowering. He quickly agreed to come into the store because he did not like the idea of being apart from me for a long time. Since then, if he doesn't want to get out of the car and is negotiating, he'll mention that staying there alone isn't an option because the police would come.
*
*
*
*
I can't understand that a mother would actually prefer to burden her child with a feeling of responsibility, guilt and/or fear because she would like to do more shopping while her child wouldn't anymore and prefer to stay in the car himself (because he's obviously tired, and tired of shopping). Mother come up with a story that she may end up arrested/in jail for leaving her son in the car and away from him for weeks?????
I know you said this to avoid have him want to stay in the car alone. But imo this is unfair manipulation of an unhealthy kind.
In such a situation I just listen to my child and go straight home, or asap, when he's obviously had enough of running around with his mom/parents?? I would think that's a logical responsibility for a parent to act upon (acknowledging a child's need rather than continuing to fullfil your own, at a point where parent's obviously dont meet child's needs anymore), and NOT the other way around!

As for leaving child shortly in car while bringing the shopping in, if the car is parked in front of the house and in view, and a safe neighbourhood, that's different. In our own setting that would work, car is parked just 3m from our front door and kitchen window. But always keep in mind that cars have been stolen with children still sitting in the back. If my car would be parked further and out of view I would prefer to have my dh help with the groceries while I would stay with the car and child. Or take ds with me to put the shopping away and let him help if he likes. And be late rather than sorry (in very worst case scenario).

For the restroom issue. No, I wouldn't let my children sit alone and go alone to the restroom until they are much older (now 3 and almost 5). I would only go alone if they were friends around to have an eye on my childen for that shor while I rush to the toilet. The other way around, letting them go to the restroom alone, not yet either but I may do that sooner than leaving them at the table alone. I only recount one time when I went to the WC on the plane alone when I was travelling, pregnant and with my toddler, who was asleep, I left my him in the care of the helpful passengers sitting next to me for a few seconds. Just as I let them help carrying my bag (with purse and documents) upon leaving the plane.*


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ernalala* 
I can't understand that a mother would actually prefer to burden her child with a feeling of responsibility, guilt and/or fear because she would like to do more shopping while her child wouldn't anymore and prefer to stay in the car himself (because he's obviously tired, and tired of shopping). Mother come up with a story that she may end up arrested/in jail for leaving her son in the car and away from him for weeks?????
I know you said this to avoid have him want to stay in the car alone. But imo this is unfair manipulation of an unhealthy kind.
In such a situation I just listen to my child and go straight home, or asap, when he's obviously had enough of running around with his mom/parents?? I would think that's a logical responsibility for a parent to act upon (acknowledging a child's need rather than continuing to fullfil your own, at a point where parent's obviously dont meet child's needs anymore), and NOT the other way around!

Hmmmm...what would you do if your child was tired and wanted to go home, but the errand you needed to run was something important like food or medicine for the child? Would you fill the child's need to go home, or the child's need to have supper when he got there?


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## ernalala (Mar 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rachelsmama* 
Hmmmm...what would you do if your child was tired and wanted to go home, but the errand you needed to run was something important like food or medicine for the child? Would you fill the child's need to go home, or the child's need to have supper when he got there?

I go home! If there would be such an important errand as shopping for food because we're totally out of food at home (and that won't happen because we ALWAYS have sth that can be eaten so we're never out of EVERYTHING), or shopping for medicine, I would make sure to do that important shopping FIRST. And if my child really would be really distressed I would just go home asap whatever the nature of the shopping. I would try to find another way to get that other need met. And I am talking out of experience. But I would never put the burden of responsibility to my child about the 'want to stay and wait in car alone' issue, if I would like to explain I would just say it is not allowed to do that and as a mother, I won't allow it either, not more, not less. As I am not prepared to force my child to go and do even MORE shopping with me, then I simply listen and go home with him. Yes, and that can be frustrating







. But it's not the end of the world.


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## zeldamomma (Jan 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
Interested wrote:Yes, discuss it! Over a year ago, my son tried to get me to leave him in the car in the parking lot of Lowe's after dark because he was tired of shopping, and I told him I could not do that because if someone saw him, they would think his parents had abandoned him and he needed helpers to take care of him, so they would call the police, and then I would get into a lot of trouble and "we might not get to be together for WEEKS before it was all straightened out." I hoped this would be a better strategy than telling him he's not safe, which I think is very disempowering. He quickly agreed to come into the store because he did not like the idea of being apart from me for a long time. Since then, if he doesn't want to get out of the car and is negotiating, he'll mention that staying there alone isn't an option because the police would come.

FWIW, I think that was a *very* scary story to tell a little kid. What I have told my kids is that it's my job as their mom to make sure they're safe, and I can't do that if they're all by themselves in the car while I'm in a store and can't see them. I have explained to them that something could happen where they might need my help, and if that happens I want to be there. My kids know from experience that sometimes they need help, and so this explanation seems to satisfy them, and there was no need to get into details about what might happen, but if they asked for details I would probably say something like "I'm not sure, but there are a lot of possibilities, and I feel safer having you with me-- you just can't stay in the car". There's no need to paint a scary picture for them (especially one where the police are the villains, and your son feels a responsibility to keep _you_ out of trouble). If your son ever got lost, you would want him to feel comfortable going to the police, right?

My kids know that not every decision is open for negotiation-- if something is dangerous, the answer is no. I don't overuse the word "dangerous" and I explain the danger if I can in a way that isn't too scary. In your first example, I would have told my kids that I needed to go to the bathroom and that they had to come with me, and they would have come-- if one of them started to argue, I would have given them the choice of walking or being carried (and would think long and hard before taking that child to a restaurant again without another adult). I'm all for treating children respectfully, but not at the expense of safety.

ZM


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
Interested wrote:Yes, discuss it! Over a year ago, my son tried to get me to leave him in the car in the parking lot of Lowe's after dark because he was tired of shopping, and I told him I could not do that because if someone saw him, they would think his parents had abandoned him and he needed helpers to take care of him, so they would call the police, and then I would get into a lot of trouble and "we might not get to be together for WEEKS before it was all straightened out." I hoped this would be a better strategy than telling him he's not safe, which I think is very disempowering. He quickly agreed to come into the store because he did not like the idea of being apart from me for a long time. Since then, if he doesn't want to get out of the car and is negotiating, he'll mention that staying there alone isn't an option because the police would come.

My daughter asks "why" a lot, and wants lots of details. If we ever use a car to go shopping I can see how I might end up saying something similar. And no, she probably wouldn't find that explanation very scary.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Ernalala, with a preschooler I think it's important to consider that not every desire represents a true need. I am employed full-time, so my window of opportunity for errands is limited. Could we have survived another week without the toilet part and continued flushing the toilet by reaching into the tank? Yes. (I think it's odd that you assumed the shopping was filling my personal need, rather than the whole family's need.) Was my son's boredom so important that he truly needed me to drop everything to cater to him? Well, if it had been, he would have responded to my explanation with incoherent whining and flopping, instead of perky agreement to come with me now that he understood the reason. If his response had shown me that he really was too tired for this errand, I would've taken him home.

As for "burdening him with responsibility," I believe that responsibility for one's role in the family is not a burden, and that being raised to be aware of this responsibility from an early age was very good for me.

Quote:

Mother come up with a story that she may end up arrested/in jail for leaving her son in the car and away from him for weeks?????
Well, it's true! Depending upon how police view the situation, leaving a young child unattended in a car out of sight can result in criminal charges and the child being placed in foster care until it's settled, and that can in fact take weeks if not months. This is my #1 concern in doing things that may make me look like a negligent parent.

Quote:

But always keep in mind that cars have been stolen with children still sitting in the back.
That's why I always have my key with me. Getting a car started without the key takes too long for anyone to succeed at it before I could get back. I wouldn't leave my child in the car while I load/unload if it was parked out of sight. We park on the street, and our front yard is only 10 feet deep with a direct line of sight from the front door to the street. If I can't get a parking space within sight and on the same side of the street, I double-park with blinkers on long enough to load/unload. But stopping home between errands/events is rare for us; we've done it maybe 5 times.

Zeldamomma wrote:

Quote:

What I have told my kids is that it's my job as their mom to make sure they're safe, and I can't do that if they're all by themselves in the car while I'm in a store and can't see them. I have explained to them that something could happen where they might need my help, and if that happens I want to be there. My kids know from experience that sometimes they need help, and so this explanation seems to satisfy them
You're right, that's a better explanation. Come to think of it, my son knows he is not allowed to walk in a parking lot alone because drivers may not be able to see him, so he should be able to understand (if I point it out) that he wouldn't be able to come looking for me if he needed me. I'll take this tactic if it comes up again.









Quote:

If your son ever got lost, you would want him to feel comfortable going to the police, right?
Yes. We have talked about how helpers are there for when you really seriously need help, but they are not to be bothered unnecessarily because we all pay for helpers and need to make sure that our money is not wasted and the helpers are available for those who truly need them. My son has a favorite book about a little boy who gets lost and asks for help from a policeman, and we've talked about how that is the right decision.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zeldamomma* 
If your son ever got lost, you would want him to feel comfortable going to the police, right?


Not necessarily. I am going to have to cite Gavin De Becker for the umpteenth time on this site. Sometimes children get security guards or other people in uniform mixed up with police officers. I've told my kids if they get lost to try to find a mommy.


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## ernalala (Mar 30, 2008)

Quote:
Mother come up with a story that she may end up arrested/in jail for leaving her son in the car and away from him for weeks?????

Well, it's true! Depending upon how police view the situation, leaving a young child unattended in a car out of sight can result in criminal charges and the child being placed in foster care until it's settled, and that can in fact take weeks if not months. This is my #1 concern in doing things that may make me look like a negligent parent.

I didn't imply it wasn't true. What I was actually trying to say was that it's not neccesary to come up with this kind of story to persuade a pre-schooler. Ok edite here: I see you were talking about a toilet part, not paper. So if the shopping was to get toilet part urgently, then you tell him that. No shopping means no fixed toilet with the consequences that it just won't be possible to use the toilet at home. That it won't be much fun to have to go in the garden or rind the neighbour's bell x times a day to ask if you can use their bathroom . You may suggest in letting him 'help pick out the right part' so that you can both fix it at home, make the trip a little more fascinating lol. I just try to make see that there are still many other possibilities out there that are not so heavy loaded as the one you described.








Really, I know what it's like with 'difficult' little ones, but what helps a lot here is an approach were I listen A LOT to my children and try to offer creative/funny solutions to have them come along. But if that really doesn't stick I do go home with them.


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## Subhuti (Feb 18, 2005)

I would leave a child at any age (I have left babies) with waitresses that I knew (I live in a small town) knew who were right there the entire duration of my bathroom visit. Likewise, if I knew other patrons, I'd leave my kids, any age, to be watched while I nip to the bathroom.

I feel so lucky to live in a small community. It just sounds terrible the world that you guys live in where every stranger is some potential child napper. Ugh.

If I am in a large city restaurant, where i know no one, i would not leave my child.


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## pixiepunk (Mar 11, 2003)

i would not leave a child of that age alone by him/herself in a restaurant. if i was for some reason somewhere with my older two kids (5.5 and 3.5) and not the baby, and it was a familiar place were we knew the waitress (we live in a small community so this is pretty common) then i might consider leaving them alone together. but i would not leave either one all by him/herself in a public place.

but honestly, this has never come up. we either all hit the bathroom when we first arrive, we all go together, or we just wait until the meal is over. while a toddler might occasionally have an urgent potty need, i've never felt i had to pee so urgently that i'd contemplate leaving my kid alone at the table. i think a tiny bit of advanced planning could really eliminate the entire scenario so that you just don't find yourself having to make that decision.

i give my kids plenty of independence, let them walk ahead of me on city sidewalks, let them walk near the cart/in the aisle when we're grocery shopping. and they know to stay near me. and it's not so much that i think something horrible would happen to them if i left them alone at the table, but why on earth take the risk? IMO it's very much like leaving your child alone in the car - only worse in some ways because in the car they are strapped into a 5 pt harness (at that age anyway), the doors are locked and you have the keys. so the likelihood of them hurting themselves or being hurt by someone else actually seems less likely. in fact, i do sometimes leave the kids in the car to run into the country store, like to grab a loaf of bread or mail a letter (it's also the PO) - you can see the car through the glass windows the entire time, and in front of the store half of the community stands around talking. they know not to open the door for anyone, even people we know, and of course if i saw anyone approach the car, even someone i know, i'd be there in five seconds (keys with me, doors and windows locked). and all that said, i only do it when more than one child is in the car - for whatever reason, there is a big difference to me in briefly leaving one child alone and briefly leaving multiple children (of varying ages) together without an adult.


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## amlikam (Nov 19, 2008)

I wouldn't do it with my nieces and nephews- so i doubt I would with DD.....


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## green betty (Jun 13, 2004)

Wow, I find this thread shocking. No, I would absolutely not leave my 4 year old at the table unattended while I went to the bathroom.

If I saw anyone else do that, I'd watch their kid while they were gone, inform the management, and seriously consider calling the police.


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## SquishyBuggles (Dec 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiepunk* 
i would not leave a child of that age alone by him/herself in a restaurant. if i was for some reason somewhere with my older two kids (5.5 and 3.5) and not the baby, and it was a familiar place were we knew the waitress (we live in a small community so this is pretty common) then i might consider leaving them alone together. but i would not leave either one all by him/herself in a public place.

but honestly, this has never come up. we either all hit the bathroom when we first arrive, we all go together, or we just wait until the meal is over. while a toddler might occasionally have an urgent potty need, i've never felt i had to pee so urgently that i'd contemplate leaving my kid alone at the table. i think a tiny bit of advanced planning could really eliminate the entire scenario so that you just don't find yourself having to make that decision.

i give my kids plenty of independence, let them walk ahead of me on city sidewalks, let them walk near the cart/in the aisle when we're grocery shopping. and they know to stay near me. and it's not so much that i think something horrible would happen to them if i left them alone at the table, but why on earth take the risk? IMO it's very much like leaving your child alone in the car - only worse in some ways because in the car they are strapped into a 5 pt harness (at that age anyway), the doors are locked and you have the keys. so the likelihood of them hurting themselves or being hurt by someone else actually seems less likely. in fact, i do sometimes leave the kids in the car to run into the country store, like to grab a loaf of bread or mail a letter (it's also the PO) - you can see the car through the glass windows the entire time, and in front of the store half of the community stands around talking. they know not to open the door for anyone, even people we know, and of course if i saw anyone approach the car, even someone i know, i'd be there in five seconds (keys with me, doors and windows locked). and all that said, i only do it when more than one child is in the car - for whatever reason, there is a big difference to me in briefly leaving one child alone and briefly leaving multiple children (of varying ages) together without an adult.

Ditto all of this.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

No I would not.

In the familiar family restaurant scenario I might consider it if necessary, but more than likely he would just come with.

In the Subway scenario, no way. And I can say with much certainty if my dh did that I would NOT be pleased.

Why, you ask? It's not that I think all sorts of calamities will befall him, or that a boogey man is around every corner. It is because to me it is not the appropriate decision to make. My instinct says No, and I listen to that.

I think people's response to this will vary be location. In a diner in Pagosa Springs CO a little 4yo sat at a table watching Dora on a laptop while her Mom was working out in an attached fitness center. The barista would have noticed if someone bothered the child, and the Mom and I chatted and she said Pagosa Springs is the only place she ever has lived where she could imagine doing something like that.


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KailuaMamatoMaya* 
My God....I would NEVER leave my four year old unattended in a restaurant, never. I'd rather pee myself.

Sums up my thoughts.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EnviroBecca* 
Most of you are not answering my question WHY NOT? What is it that you think would happen to a child left by himself for 3 minutes in a room with other restaurant patrons and staff?

(((SNIP)))

I did think the situation at Panera was highly questionable. That time I tried to get him to come with me, *we argued* until I was about to wet my pants, and I gave up because he was making sense (((SNIP)))

The first part.... for my child in particular I can think of about a hundred scenarios that could happen.... he could run out the door and get lost, get hit by a car, get taken by any random person (none of these are unlikely, unfortunately, since ds has autism and has no sense of danger and will escape without any thought). He could run into a waiter/waitress who is carrying something hot and get it spilled on him. He could run into the kitchen and get hurt. He could go up to a random table and start eating someone elses food (







). He could get ahold of a knife and hurt himself or others. Hell, he could hurt himself with a freaking fork. He could wander around and try to find me and get lost. And then there are those that no parent ever wants to think about (abduction, molestation, etc). For me it's not worth the risk.

As for the second, bolded part....







Who is the parent? No need to argue with a child over something you feel is necessary (and even you said you thought the Panera situation was "highly questionable"). If he's mature enough to stay at a table alone, he's mature enough to know not to argue with mom when she says no. I see neither of those in a 4 year old.


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## Shera971 (Nov 26, 2008)

:

A lifetime can happen in 3 minutes. I wouldn't want to be regretting something as simple as taking my child with me when I go to the bathroom. I know I am alarmist but when I read this thread all I could think about were those two 10 year old boys in England who took the toddler when the mom looked "away for a moment". My 3 YO DS wouldn't necessarily leave with an adult but two older boys who promised fun? Absolutely.


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## ProtoLawyer (Apr 16, 2007)

In the coffee shop I mentioned in my post about sending a child to the bathroom alone, absolutely. It's a small shop, we know the owners and workers and most of the patrons.

In a larger place, probably not, but that does bring up a dilemma on the rare occasion I'm out with my SD but not my partner or anyone else I trust. I don't really want a 6-year-old (who is not mine biologically and who WILL report back to her mom) watching me go to the bathroom (especially #2, if that's not TMI). It's not so bad in a multi-stall bathroom, but in a one-at-a-time? She narrates. She asks questions. And it's not cute toddlerdom. And, if my IBS is acting up, it ain't pretty. I'm kind of at a loss.


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## Bug-a-Boo's Mama (Jan 15, 2008)

No I wouldn't. It hasn't even crossed my mind to leave him while I go to the restroom. But in the instances you described, I would have either gone first thing when we arrived or waited until we were done eating. Either time would have been a good time for a potty break for DS also. Too many what ifs to factor in. And if I even remotely considered it and DH found out-he would drop dead of a heart attack right there.

But...my brother is 11 1/2 years younger than me. There was a very small old mall near our house that we (I WAS the babysitter) used to go to. I would drop him off in the toy section of McCroy's (?) and go look around somewhere else in the store. Yeah, he was probably two or three







. He also used to play out front by himself. I cannot even begin to imagine doing any of the above w/DS. NEVER! Over twenty years ago-but still.


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## lucysmom (Oct 17, 2004)

Just to keep you company, Envirobecca, I've done it, though only in a restaurant where the staff are obsessed with DD (4), know me, and would be all over any problem. My main worry is that other people will freak out ... and yes, judging by other responses, that seems pretty likely.

I'm often in a different room from my kid for 10-15 minutes at a time, so abduction seems like the only issue. My dd is pretty clued in to how to handle such a situation, so in a known restaurant, as I said, I feel comfortable.

To me this is similar to the question of whether to allow kids to play outside out of your sight. I think it is worth the risk under most circumstances. I know many feel differently.


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## ernalala (Mar 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lucysmom* 
To me this is similar to the question of whether to allow kids to play outside out of your sight. I think it is worth the risk under most circumstances. I know many feel differently.

Play outside in our neighbourhood by my children will be fine by me when I find they are old enough to be trusted with that. Four is very young imo. When I deem them old enough to play outside alone, COULD be the time to trust them alone for a short while in the restaurant situation (VERY MUCH depending on the place though) but then still I wouldn't do that Our suburban neighbourhood where they would play is so much diferrent from the part of town where we may be out to eat, this is such an enormous and densely populated town with millions of citizens, you're quite anonymous here. Yes, I'm a very passionate promoter of free outdoor play for kids, but age appropriate. But I wouldn't allow that either if we would live in the middle of town.
I let my (then) 4y old sometimes play, not constantly supervised by me (well, sometimes peeking out of window), on our street with other kids, and when other adults were outside on their terraces or peeking from windows too; we have a narrow, quiet street with a good oversight. But then he got himself in trouble - there was a lucky outcome though. Amd it just was not worth the risk. I won't allow him to play on the street again without my personal supervision untill I find that he will really be mature enough. Safety issue.

Sometimes parenting means learning the hard way.


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## LivingUnderGrace (Jan 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KailuaMamatoMaya* 
My God....I would NEVER leave my four year old unattended in a restaurant, never.

I agree! 4 ??







: No way, not me.


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## Krabs (Dec 20, 2008)

No I would not leave my child alone in a public place so I could use the restroom.


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## Ammaarah (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jjawm* 
Nope, not until they're much older. 4 is too young.

I agree.


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## kblackstone444 (Jun 17, 2007)

No, no, no, no, no! I still would not be comfortable leaving my 8 year old alone in a resteraun, unless, in an emergency, MAYBE in the care of my 13 year old and for as little time as possible. There is one exception, though- the resteraunt my Sister-in-Law works in. She's worked there forever, my Hubby's gone there forever, it's like that old show, "Cheers"- where everybody knows your name.


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## pixiepunk (Mar 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lucysmom* 
To me this is similar to the question of whether to allow kids to play outside out of your sight. I think it is worth the risk under most circumstances. I know many feel differently.

for me the same rules do apply - they're allowed outside together but not alone (at least, not for any long period of time). well, i do let one outside alone to ride their bike on the patio which is right next to the kitchen, if i am in the kitchen. but to run around further away from the house they have to be together. i have no concerns about other people where we live - off a dirt road on 45 acres. and no concerns about them going where they are not supposed to - they understand what they are and aren't allowed to do and there's enough that they are allowed to do that they have no reason to mess with stuff they aren't. and when weather is good and the windows are open i can hear everything they are doing, even at a pretty good distance. but i prefer they are together outside anyway just in case something were to happen that i didn't hear there will be someone who can run in and get me if the other one can't.

but i think for many people it's going to depend on where you live. if you've got a fenced in back yard on a quiet street, the risk really is not the same leaving your kid alone in the back yard as it is leaving him/her alone in an open public place. at least not from a 'stranger danger' or 'getting lost while looking for you' perspective.


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## kblackstone444 (Jun 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiepunk* 
for me the same rules do apply - they're allowed outside together but not alone (at least, not for any long period of time). well, i do let one outside alone to ride their bike on the patio which is right next to the kitchen, if i am in the kitchen. but to run around further away from the house they have to be together. i have no concerns about other people where we live - off a dirt road on 45 acres. and no concerns about them going where they are not supposed to - they understand what they are and aren't allowed to do and there's enough that they are allowed to do that they have no reason to mess with stuff they aren't. and when weather is good and the windows are open i can hear everything they are doing, even at a pretty good distance. but i prefer they are together outside anyway just in case something were to happen that i didn't hear there will be someone who can run in and get me if the other one can't.

but i think for many people it's going to depend on where you live. if you've got a fenced in back yard on a quiet street, the risk really is not the same leaving your kid alone in the back yard as it is leaving him/her alone in an open public place. at least not from a 'stranger danger' or 'getting lost while looking for you' perspective.

Plus, often, you know your neighbors, or at least know they're not kidnappers or axe murderers. Anyone can walk into any resteraunt or public place and they don't have to announce to everyone there that they are a sexc offender, or something like that.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

I would leave my soon to be 8 YO alone at the table if I needed to pee, yes. I don`t do it, however, because he doesn`t want to.







But IF he was ok with it, I would let him sit there while I ran to pee. This would only be ok in a restaurant we both where familiar with, and where the toilet was close by.
Here in Norway I think most people would do that, actually.









I would not do this when he was 4, however.


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## proudmamanow (Aug 12, 2003)

Dd1, who will be 4 in April, would be too nervous (she might claim to be okay, but in reality she`d be terrified the whole time I was gone, kwim?). Also although I consider her to be a very sensible & cautious kid, there are too many potential scenarios where I could see her feeling uncomfortable & scared. As a bonus, I'm usually trying to convince her to try & pee by going with her to go pee myself, lol.


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