# This just doesn't make sense to me



## amym72 (Jun 14, 2003)

There are a lot of Amish families where we live. They lead the simple natural life, make their own clothes, build their own homes, don't use birth control, breastfeed, no electricity, drive horse drawn carriages, make their own bakes goods, grow their gardens and raise their livestock. We see them in Walmart usually on Saturdays buying the things that they don't grow:flour,sugar,coffee, toilet paper AND sposies and wipes. I can't figure out why they don't use cloth. My dh says it's prpbably because they don't have washer/dryers. I wonder if it's that or because the only cloth diapers around are the cheap gerber prefolds and plastic pants. They don't have computers or internet so they wouldn't know there were places to buy high quality prefolds and covers.


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## Maeve (Feb 21, 2004)

I would think they would just make their own? Does seem a little strange, you'd think cd's would be a given.


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## JohnnysGirl (Dec 22, 2003)

Amy, what an interesting thread! I have no idea why Amish wouldn't use cloth, and would use high-tech







disposable diapers.







I guess if they don't use high-tech new-fangled appliances, then it would be tough to wash them? But it's not like they shy away from 'tough' so I can imagine them hand washing diapers..... hmmmmmm







Perhaps someone needs to go there in person and sell them quality WAHM fluff?







You'd think there'd be a seamstress in every community who would make diapers as well as clothes....


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## mamaofthreeboys (Dec 16, 2003)

What a great thread to start








I guess I just assumed they wouldn't use sposies







......


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## cj'smommy (Aug 14, 2003)

That is interesting!

The Amish by my Aunt don't even have garbage pick-up, they burn all their trash that they don't compost. Wonder if they use sposies too and what they do with them?


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## MTBto5 (Jul 13, 2004)

I have noticed that also







Every year a girlfriend and myself go to Shipshewanee for a week and they are all amish/menonites(sp?) there and the same thing all in disposables. They do have hand washers with the ringers and almost all of the women are great seamstress so go figure








The only thing I can think of is what you had mentioned about if they don't sew and only find the cheep ones at the stores.


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## Nada (Oct 27, 2003)

That is very puzzling. I hope someone can jump on this thread with some "insider" info on why that is...

Nada


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## Book Addict Jen (Mar 1, 2004)

Maybe someone needs to make a flier upon the new developments in cloth diapers. Have a list of WAHMs & addresses, so they can write the WAHMs for more information.


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## Ackray (Feb 11, 2004)

That is odd. I was thinking that they can't very well use their electric serger and sewing maching to whip out nice strong diapers, but they do make their own clothes. Maybe they use sposies because it's one part of their religion/culture that they are allowed to use that is modern so it's fun to them?


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## JohnnysGirl (Dec 22, 2003)

But probably only wool covers, right? Synthetic covers are such modern inventions....well, then again so are sposies and they use those!







Obvoiusly I have nothing new to add to this.... :LOL


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## ChristinaB (Apr 14, 2004)

Strange!!


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## mommy2three (Apr 6, 2003)

Wow! I know I'm saying the same thing as everyone else but I'm shocked!!! I would think they'd make their own diapers. There weren't these fancy dipes 100 years ago, they made their own and got by. Go figure!


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## oneotamama (Apr 23, 2004)

i live in a community with lots of amish. about 100 families or so. i've never seen them use sposies. in fact, they don't even use plastic pants. they use flat folds because they dry faster on the clothesline. i tried selling some cpf's at a garage sale once and they passed them right by! (and they were labeled as cloth diapers) the amish that we have are old order amish...meaning they are the most strict. it may vary by which order they belong to. it probably also depends on the family. it's usually unfair to say that all amish do this or don't do that. ours don't wear them and i wouldn't want to hold an amish baby for fear i'd get soaked!!
nak


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## HeatherTremblay (Jun 7, 2003)

This is all I have found on the subject so far - not particularly informative - perhaps they only use disposables when they're 'out and about'?

http://www.amish-america.com/faq.html#diapers


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## mehndi mama (May 20, 2003)

The Amish & Mennonites have varying degrees of what tey allow & don't allow based on what "order" they belong to. The Mennonites I live by drive cars, use electricity & modern appliances, do everything "modern" except that the women all wear dresses/skirts long enough to cover their legs, double up on the fabric covering their chest-area (cape-front dresses or jumpers) and wear head-coverings. The men dress plain, but in fairly modest modern clothing.
My brother lives in an Amish community, and they don't drive cars and stuff like that. I'm not sure what their "rules" are - I think they have electricity. I do know that they use synthetic fabrics liberally, which I always thought was strange!

Anyway, most of the Mennonites I know (who a lot of people mistake for Amish, soley because of their head-coverings) don't breastfeed because they believe that some women "just can't" (but won't ever come to LLL meetings







), feed jarred baby food, and disposable diaper.

I'll have to ask my brother about diapering in his community.


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## deathbygodiva (May 4, 2004)

We live near both Amish and Mennonite communities and, in our area, they not only have access to online services, but use them quite frequently. Just not in their own homes...

One friend of mine uses sposies (mennonite) and I took her a ton of velcro wraps to use with prefolds, but everytime I've been back the baby has been in sposies. She was very interested in the pocket diapers I had made. I didn't ask her directly why she didn't use what I gave her







, but just shrugs off the option of cloth. They have soooo much to accomplish during a day, particularly during the growing season, that I think the convenience must be the issue. I have noticed flats on the line of some of the more orthodox Amish.

Make no mistake, they are very savy business people that are well aware of the modern conveniences that exist!


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## elfinbaby (Mar 17, 2002)

I don't think my grandmother got electricity until 1958 or so b/c she lived so far back in the country. My mom actually remembers when it was turned on. I asked my granny how she did diapers and it was the usual wash: dump, rinse, on wash day boil the dipes and hang them out. It can be done. It was just part of her work day. She also had food to cook - 3 squares (woke up around 3-4), 5 kids to take care of, sewing, mending, canning, gardening - the usual old time stuff







It's just a choice I think. Granny didn't have one so she washed the diapers by hand. I







my Granny. She's inspirational and not just b/c she washed her cloth diapers by hand


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## mamamoo (Apr 29, 2002)

interesting thread.







:


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## 2much2luv (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:

i wouldn't want to hold an amish baby for fear i'd get soaked!!
Hey! My babe goes coverless in flats and I rarely get soaked!!!


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## danaalex (Mar 19, 2003)

the amish community in dover, de. used sposies for the most part too.

amish do not use snaps or zippers either, they pin their clothing and i think they use buttons too. the aplix/velcro thing i am not sure of.

i know, for the families that i knew, it would be hard for them to have quality cloth diapers that worked well and were easy to care for. flat folds are not sold that many places and neither are good prefolds. disposable diapers are just easier when you don't have electricity in your house i suppose. it kind of surprised me at first, but then i thought where would they buy them? and how would they care for them?

i do know that most amish have a foot powered sewing machine, so they would be able to make flat folds and prefolds i guess. ever seen amish quilts? they are absolutely incredible and prefect!!!!!!!!! and they make all of their own clothes, except for shoes







and probably undergarments.


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## mehndi mama (May 20, 2003)

Flatfolds are very effective diapers, and are the easiest of the easy to sew - if you know how to stitch a simple hem, you can sew a diaper. Nobody has to buy them - maybe buy some diaper flannel yardage (which I *know* they can get!) or some cotton birdseye, cut them to size, and hem.


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## HoosierDiaperinMama (Sep 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MTBto5*
I have noticed that also







Every year a girlfriend and myself go to Shipshewanee for a week and they are all amish/menonites(sp?) there and the same thing all in disposables.

We were just in Shipshewana two weeks ago while on vacation. I noticed the very same thing. Tons of Amish babes in sposies!! We were actually in a Wal Mart near there and there was an Amish woman behind me at the changing table in the bathroom. She was so surprised I was using cloth. I guess I just assumed she did and when I found out she didn't I started telling her about them. She seemed interested at least.

We go to an Amish bulk food store in Illinois ocassionally and they always have flats, pins, and plastic pants in stock so I guess I'm







at the thought they would pay money for sposies when so many other aspects of their life are so simple.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

This shocks me.







:

I have never thought about it before....I just assumed they used cloth.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Makes no sense to me. I guess in the back of my mind I've always thought that they not only use cloth but make their own (probably pinned prefolds under wool soakers). How hard would it be for someone who can sew all her own dresses to sew a prefold? And if they can wash clothes, why couldn't they wash diapers?

Just seems like they'd be the last people in the world to buy sposies.


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## grnmtnmama (Jun 14, 2004)

I'm no expert, but i once heard an npr report on the Amish that mentioned the ladies using washing machines, but instead of plugging them into a wall outlet like you or I, the machines were run by a motorcycle engine and they shifted gears to change the cycle.

I used to live near an Amish community and it's interesting the things they've adopted and adapted for their use. Like, they use tractors but no tires - just the metal wheels. And cars are a no-no, but they ride modern bikes.

i would have thought that strict Amish use flats and wool, but it doesn't surprise me that Mennonites use sposies. They seem to be more 'in' the modern world.


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## PinkPixie (Apr 28, 2005)

I'm so surprised! It seems counter-cultural. Plus, they are so hard working, would they really shy away from washing a load of diapers?
I know that my grandma used flats (basically just a baby blanket) and washed everything by hand because they couldn't afford a washing machine (plus she had six kids). And they were not Amish/mennonite.


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## ~*~MamaJava~*~ (Mar 7, 2004)

I live in a mostly Amish area.
Lots of the Amish and Mennonites here use disposables but some use cloth. It's kind of funny how much 'worldly' stuff they can get by with. If I see Amish ladies in the grocery store, often it's not just flour in the cart - it's Fruit Roll ups, chips, pop and all the junk food they can fit in there. I have no idea why. But it's like mehndi mama said, different groups have different rules. My neighbour's son owns a truck for his construction business, but he's not allowed to drive it. One of his employees (non-Amish) does.
The way my neighbour washes laundry (and used to do with diapers) is an ancient washing machine. She hooks it up to their generator. I have only seen it one but it's not anything like a modern machine. They hang everything on the line.

With the Amish, keeping to the status quo is very important. They want to be the same as all the other Amish people. So it's probably area - to- area, church to church whether they're using cloth or disposable diapers.


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## Pinoikoi (Oct 30, 2003)

Before I was really "into" the internet, I got a bunch of cd catalogs... I wonder if the Amish had access to those, if they would order some cds? I once read an article about a library on a bus that drove through Amish communities. Families would order what books they were looking for, and the bus would drop them off/collect them every week... Sounds kinda like a diaper service, doesn't it?

Interesting thread.


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## kate~mom (Jul 21, 2003)

this is surprising. i know that the only diapering service within an hour of here is in a very amish area, though.


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## didelphus (May 25, 2003)

I'm shocked and somewhat horrified! I figured it would be flats all the way!


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

I am really shocked ... I figured all Amish would use old-school stuff, i.e. flats or prefolds and wool or homemade covers.

HoosierDiaperinMama, it seems so weird to me that you chatted with the Amish lady. We have a large Amish community in Kansas, and I see them frequently at Sam's Club and occasionally WalMart, but they would never EVER dream of talking to me about anything.

Maybe it's just the groups in my area, but they are VERY... what's the word? Not anti-social, but they definitely keep to themselves. They don't look around at other people in the store, they really don't smile at you if you smile at them, etc.

I think it's part of their culture that they see the outside world as having a negative influence (I'm probably not wording that right) and don't want to get involved with strangers.

Anyway, I thought it was interesting that you got to chat with one. I always wish they would talk to me - I would have a lot in common with some of them from a crunchy standpoint, I would think.


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## LeeshaLynn (May 4, 2005)

Very interesting discussion. I would have never guessed that they would use disposables.


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## vicnoe (Jun 3, 2005)

I never thought about it. I just assumed that they would use cloth. Shows what I know. LOL

Christine


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## lisas (Oct 7, 2004)

I live in an Amish and Mennonite area. I've talked to the Mennonites about CDing. Most of the women use PF and rubber pants. I gave one of the ladies a side snap fitted and a wool cover for her daughters to try. The ladies wouldn't try the wool because they didn't see how it wouldn't leak and they loved the fitted. Other cloth diapers are available to them thru catalog. She showed me one of the fitteds available and two different kind of rubber pants. The fitted had velcro and one of the covers didn't feel plasticy but more like nylon? It was a neat experience.


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

I'm also shocked! I assumed that if any one group used cloth it would be Amish.


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## CathToria (Sep 6, 2003)

I also would have thought differently .. maybe they are just as shocked that *we* choose to wash when we could use the "easy" sposies?????


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## luv2*b*mom (Mar 24, 2004)

Wow, very shocking!


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## HoosierDiaperinMama (Sep 23, 2003)

Wow this is an old thread!! :LOL

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
HoosierDiaperinMama, it seems so weird to me that you chatted with the Amish lady. We have a large Amish community in Kansas, and I see them frequently at Sam's Club and occasionally WalMart, but they would never EVER dream of talking to me about anything.

I must've looked friendly to her or something. :LOL The cloth must've really caught her attention though b/c I ended up staying in the bathroom just to answer her questions.


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## Jennisee (Nov 15, 2004)

I live in an Amish area and do business w/ many of them, and I find them to be both friendly and shrewd businessmen. They are *very* aware of the available modern technologies, but what they choose to adopt varies from ordnung to ordnung (kind of like their particular church). They also know how to market their products to the English (non-Amish) and tourists.









I know that this is a gross overgeneralization, but their way of life is less about avoiding modern technologies than it is about not relying on modern man. They avoid electricity being brought into their houses b/c of the symbolism of being connected to the outside world, but they run some appliances (like refrigerators) on gas-powered generators. I was at an Amish house last week and saw two big Belgian horses pulling a gas-operated hay bailer. I also saw Miracle-Grow and commercial fungicide on their back porch. When I was in their scratch-and-dent grocery store, I saw Amish women loading bleach and Downey into their carts. And the butcher shop and processing plant are completely modern and state-inspected.

But, diapers, I'm not sure. You don't see children in the businesses, and the woman I buy baked goods from has older children. I was thinking about going to their health food store tomorrow. If I can find a way to ask w/o seeming nosey or insulting, I will. (Depends on who's working the store, the old man or his granddaughter. :LOL )


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

If I had to wash by hand I'm not sure I'd do cloth, especially if I had all the other work that they do.


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## Boobiemama (Oct 2, 2002)

This has been a very interesting read!


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jennisee*
I also saw Miracle-Grow and commercial fungicide on their back porch.

Oh, dear. Another assumption destroyed.









This is going to change the way I shop in the natural food store. From now on, Certified Organic only, I guess. I had assumed that they simply couldn't afford certification and that I could trust Amish food products.


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## Jennisee (Nov 15, 2004)

Well, I didn't find out much today. The health food store was pretty busy, and I just can't find a tactful way to ask, "So what's you're custom regarding....." I did, however, ask if there were any stores where I could buy cloth diapers, and was immediately given directions to the dry goods store, where I found a whole shelf of Gerber flats, prefolds, pins, vinyl pants, and training pants. I can't imagine they would sell it if there wasn't a market for it, but obviously I can't say for sure.

Sustainer, don't give up on them completely. You just have to ask questions, although I admitedly sometimes struggle w/ finding tactful ways to do it. I've done a lot of research lately, and it seems that unless there is a specific ordnung rule regarding something, you'll find a lot of variation among individual Amish families. Their HFS is full of products labeled organic, including grains, flours, beans, teas, tons of stuff. Some Amish here have free-range chickens, some keep them off the ground in a coop. Some pasture their cattle, some don't. The poultry processing plant here advertises their meat as "local, hormone-free, and antibiotic-free," although I forgot to ask if they buy only free-range chickens. I'm going to call the butcher shop that sells pork and beef and ask if their meat is hormone- and antibiotic-free, "like the chicken place." I started a thread about this in the healthy eating forum several weeks ago--and, come to think of it, I need to update about what I've found.


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## oetien (Mar 25, 2005)

interesting!


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## samuelsmommy+3 (Aug 7, 2004)

very interesting thread...I would have never guessed they would use sposies.....


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## thyme (Jul 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sustainer*
Oh, dear. Another assumption destroyed.









This is going to change the way I shop in the natural food store. From now on, Certified Organic only, I guess. I had assumed that they simply couldn't afford certification and that I could trust Amish food products.

I have to say, although I've seen it many times in Lancaster County PA, it is a very odd sight to see a horse-drawn pesticide sprayer.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thyme*
horse-drawn pesticide sprayer.









That is just so wrong!


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## bunnyhatanpaa (Jun 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sustainer*







That is just so wrong!


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

I grew up in Lancaster county, and it's definitely a myth that Amish are "all natural." Their clothing are often sythetics, they use pesticides, they eat refined foods- you know, pretty much like the rest of America. There's a dry goods store in Ephrata that sells some cloth diapering stuff, as well as a mail order source out Route 30 called F.A.M.I.L.I.E.S. I'm sure some use cloth and many more don't (again, just like the rest of America).


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
I grew up in Lancaster county, and it's definitely a myth that Amish are "all natural." Their clothing are often sythetics, they use pesticides, they eat refined foods- you know, pretty much like the rest of America. There's a dry goods store in Ephrata that sells some cloth diapering stuff, as well as a mail order source out Route 30 called F.A.M.I.L.I.E.S. I'm sure some use cloth and many more don't (again, just like the rest of America).

Well... that's kind of a bummer.


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## Trishas Tribe (Nov 4, 2003)

We live in a highly populated Amish area. Around here ALL of the Amish cloth diaper. They only use sposies when they are out and about.

Please don't judge their whole community by that one families purchase. Even in their own community there is alot of diversity. I can't blame them for choosing sposies when they are out of the house. I can't think a horse and buggy makes for an easy place to change a diaper :LOL


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## mnnice (Apr 15, 2003)

I read the book Diaper Changes I forget the author either when I was pregnant with ds1 or shortly after he was born. The book had sources for cloth circa 2000 and many of them were either Amish or Amish catered businesses.

Some of the Amish around here must use cloth because I see huge lines full of flats from time to time (a very pretty sight).


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sustainer*
Makes no sense to me. I guess in the back of my mind I've always thought that they not only use cloth but make their own (probably pinned prefolds under wool soakers). How hard would it be for someone who can sew all her own dresses to sew a prefold? And if they can wash clothes, why couldn't they wash diapers?

Just seems like they'd be the last people in the world to buy sposies.









Me too! If you can make those beautiful quilts how hard is it to hem a flat? and knit a soaker?

And why are buttons and zips not allowed, but adhesive tabs and absorbent gels?

Quote:

horse-drawn pesticide sprayer.
Oh I hate to think what it does to the dosing rate when the horse stops to crap!!


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wannabe*
Me too! If you can make those beautiful quilts how hard is it to hem a flat? and knit a soaker?

And why are buttons and zips not allowed, but adhesive tabs and absorbent gels?

I don't quite understand the exotification of the Amish. They're just people. Maybe they don't have time to hem a flat or knit a soaker. Maybe they don't want to. Lots of people don't.

ETA: And not all Amish women make quilts.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

I don't think anyone's debating that they're people, but they do have their own culture that they keep separate from mainstream culture, and they are known to preserve old-fashioned traditions and methods and manual tools. It seems incongruous for them to use disposable diapers and pesticides.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sustainer*
I don't think anyone's debating that they're people, but they do have their own culture that they keep separate from mainstream culture, and they are known to preserve old-fashioned traditions and methods and manual tools. It seems incongruous for them to use disposable diapers and pesticides.

And yet many of them do. This thread seems to be perpetuating an awful lot of stereotypes and assumptions. Insert another religious or ethnic group in some of these sentences instead of "Amish" and I think people would see how stereotypical it really is.

I wanted to add- it seems to me it would make more sense to say, wow, my preconceptions about the Amish just weren't true, than, dang, the Amish aren't living up to my expectations. They are simple, darn it, and how hard would it be for them to use cloth?


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## butterflyma (May 14, 2002)

Thanks, Annette







You've saved me from some time-consuming nak-ing! :LOL


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
And yet many of them do. This thread seems to be perpetuating an awful lot of stereotypes and assumptions. Insert another religious or ethnic group in some of these sentences instead of "Amish" and I think people would see how stereotypical it really is.

I dunno... if I go back and insert MDC'ers instead of Amish, I could totally see this thread taking place on another board. MDC has its own culture that lead to a certain lifestyle.

Maybe if you could point out the sentences that you think have stereotypes, rather than just a series of posts talking about our assumptions about that group of people and how they were wrong, it would help?


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## pilesoflaundry (Dec 9, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
I wanted to add- it seems to me it would make more sense to say, wow, my preconceptions about the Amish just weren't true, than, dang, the Amish aren't living up to my expectations. They are simple, darn it, and how hard would it be for them to use cloth?









I was just going to say something similar. Gosh they are talked about in this thread like they are some sort of exotic species not just a set of people with a typically more simple way of life.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
I dunno... if I go back and insert MDC'ers instead of Amish, I could totally see this thread taking place on another board. MDC has its own culture that lead to a certain lifestyle.

Yeah, but how would that make you feel?

Quote:

Maybe if you could point out the sentences that you think have stereotypes, rather than just a series of posts talking about our assumptions about that group of people and how they were wrong, it would help?
Honestly, I don't think it would be a good idea for me to go through the thread picking apart posts. I don't want to do it. But I do feel the sentiment is here that the Amish should be held to some sort of imaginary standard that has been created based on preconceptions of how "Amish people" are supposed to be.


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## chalupamom (Apr 15, 2002)

Stereotypes?

How about

- If you can make a quilt, then you can sew a flat?

- I assumed they couldn't afford (organic) certification...

- Maybe they use sposies because it's one part of their religion/culture that they are allowed to use that is modern so it's fun to them?

- But probably only wool covers, right? Synthetic covers are such modern inventions....well, then again so are sposies and they use those!

- Just seems like they'd be the last people in the world to buy sposies.

- but it doesn't surprise me that Mennonites use sposies. They seem to be more 'in' the modern world.

The lives of Amish and Mennonite communities are considerable deeper and broader than anything we might have seen in the movie "Witness", on a tourist brochure or in the restaurant promising you apple dumplings "just like Oma used to make".


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## splendid (Jul 18, 2004)

So I guess its all relative to how culturally sensitive you are?

I went through and substituted Amish with "black people" and found some of the statements to be very stereotypical and broad generalizations.

I guess people just can't see how some comments reek of ignorance no matter how innocent it might be.


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## Robinde (Nov 19, 2004)

Who would've guessed??? Weird.


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## Calidris (Apr 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz*
I dunno... if I go back and insert MDC'ers instead of Amish, I could totally see this thread taking place on another board. MDC has its own culture that lead to a certain lifestyle.

yea, but it would be stereotyped and incorrect to assume that all MDC'ers CD, or eat all organic, or are vegan, or all shun vaxes, or, or, or ....
Just the same way it's stereotyped and wrong to assume all Amish quilt and cloth diaper.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
And yet many of them do.

Yes, that's what this thread is bringing to light.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
This thread seems to be perpetuating an awful lot of stereotypes and assumptions. Insert another religious or ethnic group in some of these sentences instead of "Amish" and I think people would see how stereotypical it really is.

You think that the idea of the Amish living a more natural and old-fashioned lifestyle is just a stereotype? If it bothers you that people think that all Amish people are totally natural and old-fashioned, then it seems to me that you should like this thread. This thread is not perpetuating the belief that all Amish people are totally natural and old-fashioned. It is doing the opposite. It is dispelling the myth that all Amish people are totally natural and old-fashioned.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
I wanted to add- it seems to me it would make more sense to say, wow, my preconceptions about the Amish just weren't true, than, dang, the Amish aren't living up to my expectations. They are simple, darn it, and how hard would it be for them to use cloth?

It's hard to be neutral about the realization rather than negative, because when we thought that the Amish used cloth and farmed naturally, we thought of it as a good thing and admired them for it, but since MDC is generally pro-cloth and pro-natural, it's predictable that we would be disappointed to discover that the idea isn't true. I don't think we've been saying that the reason they should use cloth is because it's easy. I think we've been saying that we assumed that their reason for using cloth was that they are so natural and old-fashioned about so many other things (there's that mean old stereotype again). The only reason we started talking about ease vs. difficulty of using cloth is because some people suggested that they might not use cloth because it's difficult, but that didn't make sense to many of us because that doesn't stop them from doing so many other things that are natural and old fashioned that aren't any easier.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pilesoflaundry*
Gosh they are talked about in this thread like they are some sort of exotic species not just a set of people with a typically more simple way of life.

I really don't see where you're getting that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Yeah, but how would that make you feel?

I wouldn't be offended at all if there were a discussion on another board about how odd it is that so many pro-natural MDCers use sposies. I think it would be a perfectly reasonable discussion.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
I do feel the sentiment is here that the Amish should be held to some sort of imaginary standard that has been created based on preconceptions of how "Amish people" are supposed to be.

I don't think we are holding them to a standard that we created. I think we were under the impression that they were holding themselves to a standard of their own, and we are discovering that the standard isn't as strict as we thought or that they don't all hold themselves as strictly to it as we thought they did.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chalupamom*

- I assumed they couldn't afford (organic) certification...

That's simply the only reason I can think of for anyone who farms organically not to get certified. I did think that it was part of their culture that they farm organically.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chalupamom*
- But probably only wool covers, right? Synthetic covers are such modern inventions....well, then again so are sposies and they use those!

Synthetic covers ARE modern inventions, and there are many modern inventions that they resist. I don't think it's very far-fetched to have the idea that they would use wool covers when it's part of their culture to cling to natural, old-fashioned ways.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chalupamom*
- Just seems like they'd be the last people in the world to buy sposies.

I still stand by that statement. It surprises me, from everything I've heard about their culture, that they would use sposies.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *splendid*
I went through and substituted Amish with "black people" and found some of the statements to be very stereotypical and broad generalizations.

Naturally the comments we've been making wouldn't apply to black people.

Quote:

I guess people just can't see how some comments reek of ignorance no matter how innocent it might be.
I don't think anyone is disclaiming ignorance. I think the whole point of this thread is that we are admitting that we were completely ignorant about this aspect of Amish culture.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calidris*
yea, but it would be stereotyped and incorrect to assume that all MDC'ers CD, or eat all organic, or are vegan, or all shun vaxes, or, or, or ....

It would be incorrect that we all do all of those things, but I wouldn't call it a stereotype. We do have a culture that is based on doing things naturally, just as the Amish do. I wouldn't say that either group has been stereotyped as being natural. I would say that both groups have a well-earned reputation for being natural.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sustainer*
You think that the idea of the Amish living a more natural and old-fashioned lifestyle is just a stereotype? If it bothers you that people think that all Amish people are totally natural and old-fashioned, then it seems to me that you should like this thread. This thread is not perpetuating the belief that all Amish people are totally natural and old-fashioned. It is doing the opposite. It is dispelling the myth that all Amish people are totally natural and old-fashioned.

I suppose we are seeing too different things on this thread then. Where I do see the myth being "busted" so to speak, I've also seen people speaking with regret and almost anger that the Amish aren't living up to their expectations.

Quote:

It's hard to be neutral about the realization rather than negative, because when we thought that the Amish used cloth and farmed naturally, we thought of it as a good thing and admired them for it, but since MDC is generally pro-cloth and pro-natural, it's predictable that we would be disappointed to discover that the idea isn't true.
Again, I hear what you are saying, but I am seeing it differently. What I am seeing in this thread is "What, they can make a quilt but they can't make a flat?!?!" and "They don't use zippers, but tabs are OK" as if the Amish are engaging in some sort of hypocrisy. It's not their job not to disapoint us. It's not our job to set a standard for them based on our own faulty stereotypes, or our limited view of their religion and culture. Really, it's like going to Holland and being pissed off because everyone isn't wearing wooden shoes.

Quote:

I wouldn't be offended at all if there were a discussion on another board about how odd it is that so many pro-natural MDCers use sposies. I think it would be a perfectly reasonable discussion.
"MDC-er" is not a religion (well, for most of us anyway :LOL or an ethnicity.

Quote:

I don't think we are holding them to a standard that we created. I think we were under the impression that they were holding themselves to a standard of their own, and we are discovering that the standard isn't as strict as we thought or that they don't all hold themselves as strictly to it as we thought they did.
Fine, but I don't see why that's their problem.
You're own statement here

Quote:

How hard would it be for someone who can sew all her own dresses to sew a prefold? And if they can wash clothes, why couldn't they wash diapers?
seems to be placing an expectation on them based on what you know about the Amish from- what? the movie Witness?

Quote:

That's simply the only reason I can think of for anyone who farms organically not to get certified. I did think that it was part of their culture that they farm organically.








Well, now you know. I'm sure some do, and some don't. Again, just like the rest of the world.

Quote:

Synthetic covers ARE modern inventions, and there are many modern inventions that they resist. I don't think it's very far-fetched to have the idea that they would use wool covers when it's part of their culture to cling to natural, old-fashioned ways.
But it's not necessarily. It's part of your perception of their culture that they cling to "natural, old-fashioned" ways. FYI- the Amish do not shun modern conveniences out of a desire to be quaint, modern, or old-fashioned. They do it because they interpret Scripture to mean that they should not be "worldly" and that too much convenience leads to too much time away from family and community. They're allowed to use phones, they just can't own one on their property, generally speaKing. There are always exceptions. They are allowed to go to the hospital. They are allowed to ride in cars, trains, and buses.

Quote:

I still stand by that statement. It surprises me, from everything I've heard about their culture, that they would use sposies.
I think you need to learn more then.

Quote:

I don't think anyone is disclaiming ignorance. I think the whole point of this thread is that we are admitting that we were completely ignorant about this aspect of Amish culture.
Really? Because I was getting a definite vibe that those darn Amish were supposed to be cloth diapering, darn it.

Quote:

It would be incorrect that we all do all of those things, but I wouldn't call it a stereotype. We do have a culture that is based on doing things naturally, just as the Amish do. I wouldn't say that either group has been stereotyped as being natural. *I would say that both groups have a well-earned reputation for being natural.*
OK, really, now I am curious. What is your background with the Amish? I'll tell you mine. I grew up in Lancaster County. My Uncle adopted and apprenticed two Amish boys, and when he got married, they "did" his wedding for him. Guess what- there weren't seven sweets and seven sours on the table, either. I've been very interested in the Amish, and have done a fair bit of research on them. Where we live now, we frequenr several Amish-run stores (both of which have a huge walk in freezer and -gasp- electric lights, as well as sell disposible diapers and condoms) and have become friends with the owners. My children frequently ask them questions about their dress and their customs, and they have been extremely loving and open about answering them. I am the first to admit I don't know all there is about the Amish. It varies from district to district. Each "order" makes their own rules

I don't think anyone's horrible for having stereotypes about the Amish. I do think there comes a time when you say- wow. I guess I was wrong- rather than digging in your toes and hanging on with your teeth, insisiting that they are or should be all the things you think they are or should be, just because of your own assumptions.


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## aisling (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jennisee*
I know that this is a gross overgeneralization, but their way of life is less about avoiding modern technologies than it is about not relying on modern man. They avoid electricity being brought into their houses b/c of the symbolism of being connected to the outside world, but they run some appliances (like refrigerators) on gas-powered generators.

Jennisee, I want to thank you for this, as it is an attempt at some real education and I believe that this misunderstanding is what was bothering me most about this thread.

I don't think it is a gross overgeneralization at all, I think it is an important and very true poiint to make: the Amish are not avoiding "Modern conviences" simply for the sake of avoiding them. And to assume this is to simplify and romanticize an entire culture.

I guess what should be realized here (and just accepted as there is no reason to be disappointed in the Amish because if it) is that Amish are not an entire "NFL" community at all. That isn't what their culture is about. There are probably some families that make some NFL choices, but others do not. Some cook from scratch, others buy Hamburger Helper and love it. Some Amish women are great quilters and others choose to focus on other pursuits. Some Amish men are teriffic farmers (who may have zero interest in being organic) and others choose to pursue carpentry or run small businesses, etc.

If anyone is interested in broadening their Amish understanding, you could start by doing some reading. I highly recommend a book called "The Riddle of Amish Culture" by Donald B. Kraybill. Its a pretty fast read and really interesting. One thing that I walked away with, from this book in particular, was an understanding that there is nothing simple about the Amish culture and the author, who refuses to do any simplifying on the reader's behalf, makes it clear that no one who is not a part of the culture will ever completely understand it.


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## aisling (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
I don't think anyone's horrible for having stereotypes about the Amish. I do think there comes a time when you say- wow. I guess I was wrong- rather than digging in your toes and hanging on with your teeth, insisiting that they are or should be all the things you think they are or should be, just because of your own assumptions.


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## mnnice (Apr 15, 2003)

OT-

Just because something is applied with a sprayer (hand, horsedrawn, or tractor applied) does not make it a toxic pesticide. Many organic farmers/gardeners have pest management techniques were things are sprayed.


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## JoAida (Mar 29, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sustainer*
You think that the idea of the Amish living a more natural and old-fashioned lifestyle is just a stereotype? If it bothers you that people think that all Amish people are totally natural and old-fashioned, then it seems to me that you should like this thread. This thread is not perpetuating the belief that all Amish people are totally natural and old-fashioned. It is doing the opposite. It is dispelling the myth that all Amish people are totally natural and old-fashioned.

I do not think that the Amish people set out with the intention to be "crunchy" or "natural". I think being more natural and old-fashioned is just a side-effect of thier belief system and lifestyle.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sustainer*
It's hard to be neutral about the realization rather than negative, because when we thought that the Amish used cloth and farmed naturally, we thought of it as a good thing and admired them for it, but since MDC is generally pro-cloth and pro-natural, it's predictable that we would be disappointed to discover that the idea isn't true. I don't think we've been saying that the reason they should use cloth is because it's easy. I think we've been saying that we assumed that their reason for using cloth was that they are so natural and old-fashioned about so many other things (there's that mean old stereotype again). The only reason we started talking about ease vs. difficulty of using cloth is because some people suggested that they might not use cloth because it's difficult, but that didn't make sense to many of us because that doesn't stop them from doing so many other things that are natural and old fashioned that aren't any easier.

It sounds as if you (general 'you') were holding them to a standard they never claimed. They never asked for your admiration. They don't do what they do to try and be better than the rest of us, or to impress us. They do it for their own reasons (mostly religious), and it has nothing to do with our impressions of THEM.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sustainer*
That's simply the only reason I can think of for anyone who farms organically not to get certified. I did think that it was part of their culture that they farm organically.

Maybe the reason is that they don't put much credibility or trust in "government labels" and that would be something that would make them accountable to the very thing they are trying to NOT be a part of. Just because someone lives a simple life, it doesn't mean they are poor. Maybe they want to be able to do what they want as far as their farming, and not have government officials holding them to a standard..not because they don't want to work that hard or meet the standard, but they don't want to be accountable to a government outside of themselves. Or maybe, they just don't care about being "labeled" organic. Maybe they figure their word that the products are what they are is enough, kwim?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sustainer*
Synthetic covers ARE modern inventions, and there are many modern inventions that they resist. I don't think it's very far-fetched to have the idea that they would use wool covers when it's part of their culture to cling to natural, old-fashioned ways.

They avoid things for many reasons that may or may not make sense to us that aren't Amish. Again, I don't think being "natural or old-fashioned" is one of the more common reasons.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sustainer*
I still stand by that statement. It surprises me, from everything I've heard about their culture, that they would use sposies.

Maybe your perception of their culture is inaccurate.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sustainer*
We do have a culture that is based on doing things naturally, just as the Amish do. I wouldn't say that either group has been stereotyped as being natural. I would say that both groups have a well-earned reputation for being natural.

Just because they have that reputation, does not mean that it is their intention.

Not trying to necessarily single you out, Sustainer, I just found more quotable material in your post...I'm speaking to the general "you", not you specifically.

The Amish are primarily a religion-based culture. They make decisions based on their religious beliefs and community tradition. I'm sure there are some Amish that are concerned with being "natural", but not all are, and for us to hold them to some standard they don't claim and then be disappointed when we find they are not living up to it, is rather....judgmental.

Now, that said, I'm sad they use 'sposies, too. Because I know cloth is so much better in so many ways for ANY child.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
I've also seen people speaking with regret and almost anger that the Amish aren't living up to their expectations.

There is definitely regret, and I don't see what's wrong with feeling regret about it. I haven't seen any anger.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
What I am seeing in this thread is "What, they can make a quilt but they can't make a flat?!?!" and "They don't use zippers, but tabs are OK" as if the Amish are engaging in some sort of hypocrisy. It's not their job not to disapoint us. It's not our job to set a standard for them based on our own faulty stereotypes, or our limited view of their religion and culture. Really, it's like going to Holland and being pissed off because everyone isn't wearing wooden shoes.

We're not accusing them of hypocricy. It's just that someone suggested that they might think that making diapers is hard, and that seems strange since they are known for making so many things by hand, including difficult things like quilts. I've also heard that they don't use fasteners as modern as zippers, so it seems strange and inconsistent that they would use adhesive tabs. Not hypocritical, just strange. No, it is definitely not their job to not disappoint us. No one is suggesting that it is! Again, I don't think we're the ones who set their standard for them. We thought that there was a standard that they set for themselves, and we were mistaken about how strict that standard is. Yes, we have a limited understanding of their culture. That's the point. Again, nobody's pissed off. Just disillusioned.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
"MDC-er" is not a religion (well, for most of us anyway :LOL or an ethnicity.

No, it's a group of people who share a philosophy/culture, just like the Amish.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Fine, but I don't see why that's their problem.

It's not their problem. No one is saying it's their problem.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
seems to be placing an expectation on them based on what you know about the Amish from- what? the movie Witness?

based on everything I have ever heard about the Amish (until now)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Well, now you know.

Yup, now I know.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
I'm sure some do, and some don't.

Exactly.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Again, just like the rest of the world.

I always expect individuals to do things differently, but I thought that certain things were part of their shared culture.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
But it's not necessarily. It's part of your perception of their culture that they cling to "natural, old-fashioned" ways.

You still think that there's nothing but "perception" in that idea? With no basis in reality?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
FYI- the Amish do not shun modern conveniences out of a desire to be quaint, modern, or old-fashioned. They do it because they interpret Scripture to mean that they should not be "worldly" and that too much convenience leads to too much time away from family and community.

I wasn't commenting on their motivation. Just on the results of the motivation, whatever that might be. Sounds like either of those motivations would have about the same results though.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
They are allowed to go to the hospital.

I can understand making hospitals an exception. It's still hard for me to understand why diapers would be an exception, though.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
I think you need to learn more then.

I agree.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Really? Because I was getting a definite vibe that those darn Amish were supposed to be cloth diapering, darn it.

We simply thought that they used cloth diapers. Turns out not all of them do. We're disappointed. That's all.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
My Uncle adopted and apprenticed two Amish boys, and when he got married, they "did" his wedding for him. Guess what- there weren't seven sweets and seven sours on the table, either.

Never heard of that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
I've been very interested in the Amish, and have done a fair bit of research on them. Where we live now, we frequenr several Amish-run stores (both of which have a huge walk in freezer and -gasp- electric lights, as well as sell disposible diapers and condoms) and have become friends with the owners. My children frequently ask them questions about their dress and their customs, and they have been extremely loving and open about answering them.

Obviously you have more experience with the Amish than I do. But you admitted above that they believe in limiting conveniences, though they make exceptions for things like hospitals. Using disposable diapers still seems inconsistent with that to me.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JoAida*
I do not think that the Amish people set out with the intention to be "crunchy" or "natural". I think being more natural and old-fashioned is just a side-effect of thier belief system and lifestyle.

Fine. Either way. (See my post about motivations.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JoAida*
It sounds as if you (general 'you') were holding them to a standard they never claimed.

Apparently.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JoAida*
They never asked for your admiration.

OK. No one is saying they did







so I'm not sure what your point is.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JoAida*
They don't do what they do to try and be better than the rest of us, or to impress us.

Never said they did.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JoAida*
They do it for their own reasons (mostly religious), and it has nothing to do with our impressions of THEM.

I'm aware of that. In fact, I've always been aware of that. Furthermore, no one has said otherwise.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JoAida*
Maybe the reason is that they don't put much credibility or trust in "government labels" and that would be something that would make them accountable to the very thing they are trying to NOT be a part of.

That's definitely another possibility









Quote:


Originally Posted by *JoAida*
Just because someone lives a simple life, it doesn't mean they are poor.

I was absolutely NOT saying that I ever thought that they were all poor. My ONLY point was that, whenever I've been aware of a farmer who I think is farming organically, and his products are not labeled Organic, I have assumed that he couldn't afford certification. It's a problem for many small family farms, not just Amish ones.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JoAida*
Maybe they want to be able to do what they want as far as their farming, and not have government officials holding them to a standard.

Another good point.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JoAida*
not because they don't want to work that hard or meet the standard, but they don't want to be accountable to a government outside of themselves.

No one suggested that they don't want to work hard.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JoAida*
Maybe they figure their word that the products are what they are is enough, kwim?

That's what I USED to assume, but according to some of the posts on this thread, some of them DO use chemical pesticides.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JoAida*
They avoid things for many reasons that may or may not make sense to us that aren't Amish. Again, I don't think being "natural or old-fashioned" is one of the more common reasons.

Again, I wasn't saying that it was their reason. Just that it seemed to be the result of whatever their philosophy is.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JoAida*
Maybe your perception of their culture is inaccurate.

Clearly.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JoAida*
for us to hold them to some standard they don't claim and then be disappointed when we find they are not living up to it, is rather....judgmental.

I don't think we've been judgmental. I disagree with the interpretation that you describe.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

By the way, at least one person has said that one of their actual motivations is not to be dependant on a culture outside of their own culture, and one or two people then said that they agreed with that. I'm not sure how this furthers your argument, though. Isn't the use of disposable diapers a dependence on those who manufacture them?


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Anyway, I don't think that this thread has been about stereotypes. I think it's more analogous to someone who hasn't had much exposure to Jewish people finding out that there's such a thing as Jewish people who don't keep Kosher. I don't think that being unaware of the fact that there are Jewish people who don't keep Kosher would make one a bigot.

So this thread is like someone saying, "hey, I saw a Jewish person eating a ham sandwich. I thought they weren't allowed to eat pork?"

Then a few people came into the thread and basically said "Why shouldn't they eat pork?? They're just like everyone else. Maybe they like pork!!"

[In order to keep with the analogy, you have to imagine that this happened on a "Friends of Pigs" message board. That accounts for the reactions being negative rather than neutral.]


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## chalupamom (Apr 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sustainer*
Anyway, I don't think that this thread has been about stereotypes. I think it's more analogous to someone who hasn't had much exposure to Jewish people finding out that there's such a thing as Jewish people who don't keep Kosher. I don't think that being unaware of the fact that there are Jewish people who don't keep Kosher would make one a bigot.

So this thread is like someone saying, "hey, I saw a Jewish person eating a ham sandwich. I thought they weren't allowed to eat pork?"

Then a few people came into the thread and basically said "Why shouldn't they eat pork?? They're just like everyone else. Maybe they like pork!!"

[In order to keep with the analogy, you have to imagine that this happened on a "Friends of Pigs" message board. That accounts for the reactions being negative rather than neutral.]

Holy moly this is a terrible analogy. No, for this to be even remotely similar it wouldn't be "I thought they weren't allowed to eat pork". To be what happened here it would be "But they said they don't eat pork! It's in the Bible or something!" "I saw on Oprah that they don't eat pork!" "But maybe ham is o.k. or maybe it was turkey ham in which case it's not ham but turkey - but then is it o.k. to _pretend_ to eat pork even when it isn't pork?" "Yeah, but they could easily get soy pork - I mean, it's so easy to get a soy product, right? I don't understand why they don't when they could just go to the store where it's on display."

And that would be closer to what's happened here, and just as objectionable. It's applying external values and analysis and where it becomes really just none of our nevermind.


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

Alice, I think your metaphor would be more accurate if it was like this:

"I met a Jewish person and they said _they didn't keep pet pigs_! That was strange to me, seeing how loving pigs so much they won't eat them is a part of their culture and all."

"Well, that's weird! What, they can keep pet dogs and cats, and even chickens, but they don't keep pet pigs? It's not like pigs would be any more trouble."

Se what I mean? The problem is that the surprise is based in a _misunderstanding_ of the culture, and the culture's reasons for doing or not doing something.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Wow. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

And you don't think it's even any of our business to discuss it?


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Exactly Kristin.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Cross posted with you, girlndocs.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *girlndocs*
"I met a Jewish person and they said _they didn't keep pet pigs_! That was strange to me, seeing how loving pigs so much they won't eat them is a part of their culture and all."

No, that would not be analogous. We hadn't heard that they LIKED PIGS. We had heard that they DIDN'T EAT PORK.

We hadn't heard that the Amish LIKED CLOTH DIAPERS. We had heard that the Amish DIDN'T USE DISPOSABLES.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *girlndocs*
The problem is that the surprise is based in a _misunderstanding_ of the culture, and the culture's reasons for doing or not doing something.

It didn't have anything to do with their reason. We weren't trying to dissect their philosophy. We had been informed that they didn't use disposables. We were misinformed.


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## chalupamom (Apr 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sustainer*
And you don't think it's even any of our business to discuss it?

It wasn't discussion, it was speculation, supposition, theory, guesswork, hearsay, opinion, what have you. Very few persons here stood up to offer anything approaching an knowledgeable thought on the subject. Rather, we got a lot of "I thought," "I heard," followed by "They use," "They don't use," "They do this because" and so on, as if old order communities acted as a monolith in personifying some stock characters from central casting.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chalupamom*
it was speculation, supposition, theory, guesswork, hearsay, opinion, what have you.

Actually those all qualify as discussion.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chalupamom*
Very few persons here stood up to offer anything approaching an knowledgeable thought on the subject.

No, most of us are not very knowledgable about the Amish.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chalupamom*
we got a lot of "I thought," "I heard,"

That's all we really can say when we're not very knowlegable about the Amish.

Are all subjects forbidden except those we are very knowledgable about? If so, people would learn less about those subjects that they need more knowledge about.

Information about the Amish isn't exactly prevalent in society. I don't see how average people on a diaper message board should be expected to have an understanding of them. Someone even said that there's no way to ever completely understand their culture unless you are a part of it.


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## meco (Mar 1, 2004)

My OP was that you might be jumping to conclusions. My parents live in an are highly populated by Amish people, and most all of their Amish friends and neighbors use cloth. They also do not use pesticides. But as others said, it differs from group to group.

But I see that some others have come in and explained why this thread was odd. Thanks, mamas.


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

Ok I didn't read the whole thread but to the OP - I'm from Ohio near Amish country as well and have Mennonite friends and Amish neighbors down the road from my parents. My mom has Amish friends. It totally depends on which Order of Amish they are from. They each have their own rules and they don't make all those decisions for themselves entirely. I'm not saying anyone would stop them from cloth diapering but if their Order doesn't require it some will try to push the limits as far as they're allowed. Some may have the gas powered washing machines but I'm sure some orders don't allow that. I don't know if I'd have the level of commitment do handwash or crank machine wash all my diapers. My parents have a few of the old crank machines and they are a bear to operate.

It does bother me as well to see Amish babies in sposies because it does seem like such a contradiction to what they believe. Honestly it seems hypocritical. I spent most of my life living in Amish country and I just don't get it on this one. I understand it with Mennonites, but not Amish. It just doesn't seem to fit. I think if it was brought to the attention of the leaders they would change their minds and make rules, but I'm not sure I want women to cloth diaper because they're 'ordered' to KWIM?


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sophmama*

It does bother me as well to see Amish babies in sposies because it does seem like such a contradiction to what they believe. Honestly it seems hypocritical. I spent most of my life living in Amish country and I just don't get it on this one. I understand it with Mennonites, but not Amish. It just doesn't seem to fit. I think if it was brought to the attention of the leaders they would change their minds and make rules, but I'm not sure I want women to cloth diaper because they're 'ordered' to KWIM?

Why is it hypocritical? Are you honestly suggesting that you want to go tattle to the elders and bishops in an Amish community to try to "make" them cloth diaper, just so they better fit in with your misconceptions of how they ought to be?


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sophmama*
I'm from Ohio near Amish country as well and have Mennonite friends and Amish neighbors down the road from my parents. My mom has Amish friends. It totally depends on which Order of Amish they are from. They each have their own rules and they don't make all those decisions for themselves entirely. I'm not saying anyone would stop them from cloth diapering but if their Order doesn't require it some will try to push the limits as far as they're allowed.

Thank you for sharing your experience!

Sophmama's post is the last one I'm reading and then I'm unsubscribing from this thread, just in case anyone cares.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amym72*
There are a lot of Amish families where we live. They lead the simple natural life, make their own clothes, build their own homes, don't use birth control, breastfeed, no electricity, drive horse drawn carriages, make their own bakes goods, grow their gardens and raise their livestock. We see them in Walmart usually on Saturdays buying the things that they don't grow:flour,sugar,coffee, toilet paper AND sposies and wipes.

Incidentally, when you unsubscribe from a thread it takes you back to the first post, and I have to say that the sposies still sound really out of place to me when they're listed among these other aspects of their lifestyle.

OK, bye bye for real now.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sustainer*
Incidentally, when you unsubscribe from a thread it takes you back to the first post, and I have to say that the sposies still sound really out of place to me when they're listed among these other aspects of their lifestyle.

Except the whole first post in full of stereotypes and misconceptions.

Quote:

There are a lot of Amish families where we live. They lead the simple natural life, make their own clothes, build their own homes, don't use birth control, breastfeed, no electricity, drive horse drawn carriages, make their own bakes goods, grow their gardens and raise their livestock. We see them in Walmart usually on Saturdays buying the things that they don't grow:flour,sugar,coffee, toilet paper AND sposies and wipes.
"They" don't all lead simple natural lives. They often make their own clothes, but not all of them. Some of them build their own homes, some live in inherited homes, and some live in trailers or manufactured housing. There were a lot of Amish and Mennonite women in my Natural Family Planning class. Some breastfeed, and some don't. None of them drive "horse-drawn carriages"; they are called buggies, and each order has different standards. Some bake, and some buy their baked goods. Some grow gardens or raise livestock; many others are carpenters, buggy repairers, seamstresses for hire, blacksmiths, woodworkers, etc, etc, etc.


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## chalupamom (Apr 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sophmama*
It does bother me as well to see Amish babies in sposies because it does seem like such a contradiction to what they believe. Honestly it seems hypocritical. I spent most of my life living in Amish country and I just don't get it on this one. I understand it with Mennonites, but not Amish. It just doesn't seem to fit. I think if it was brought to the attention of the leaders they would change their minds and make rules, but I'm not sure I want women to cloth diaper because they're 'ordered' to KWIM?

I don't women to do anything because they're "ordered to". And I really don't think that, being an outsider, approaching the community leadership and pointing out how hypocritical and how much it "doesn't fit" that each and every family in their communities don't use cloth diapers is going to get you very far. Then again, judging by the news today, people love it when external forces barge their way into their societies with a promise to fix everything they're doing wrong, so why not?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sustainer*
I have to say that the sposies still sound really out of place to me when they're listed among these other aspects of their lifestyle.

Use of the word "lifestyle" here seems quite superficial to me and not at all indicative of an entire social structure and Anabaptist belief system

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sustainer*
OK, bye bye for good now.

This link seems like an interesting place to begin learning about Amish and other old order, Anabaptist communities.


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## mykdsmomy (Oct 10, 2004)

I dont see why so many of these threads have to turn so hostile....some people regardless of race, culture, religion, political standing, etc cloth diaper and some dont....it's a personal choice, (i believe). I guess it seems odd that all amish dont cloth diaper but I dont know EVERYTHING about the amish to know there reasons for cd'ing or not.....so bottom line....whether you cloth diaper or not is not a reason to be judged by others......no more than someone who wastes water, electricity, gas or other precious natural resources.....(and we all do waste resources)
ps....any average amish is probably saving 10x more natural resources than any one of us sitting here on our copper, mercury and lead filled computers debating the merits of amish disposable diapering!


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

"It's really odd that they don't keep pigs as pets because they're supposed to love pigs!"


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## HoosierDiaperinMama (Sep 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mykdsmomy*
I dont see why so many of these threads have to turn so hostile....some people regardless of race, culture, religion, political standing, etc cloth diaper and some dont....it's a personal choice, (i believe).











Especially considering this thread is a year old and nobody seemed too bothered by it when it was current.

ETA:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *girlndocs*
"It's really odd that they don't keep pigs as pets because they're supposed to love pigs!"

Huh?


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mykdsmomy*
I dont see why so many of these threads have to turn so hostile....some people regardless of race, culture, religion, political standing, etc cloth diaper and some dont....it's a personal choice, (i believe).

I agree that it's a personal choice, and I don't feel I was necessarily being hostile. I tend to take exception to stereotyping and token multiculturalism whenever I see it. I see it more as a discussion, but I guess some people see discussion as hostility. It's tough to be challenged, I guess.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HoosierDiaperinMama*









Especially considering this thread is a year old and nobody seemed too bothered by it when it was current.

I didn't realize there was some sort of expiration date on threads. No one bumped it just to take exception to it- I noticed it under "new threads" while I was scanning diapering. Does it being old, or the fact that no one took exception the first time around, devalue anyone's observations?


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## HoosierDiaperinMama (Sep 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
I didn't realize there was some sort of expiration date on threads. No one bumped it just to take exception to it- I noticed it under "new threads" while I was scanning diapering. Does it being old, or the fact that no one took exception the first time around, devalue anyone's observations?

Absolutely not! I was just commenting...just like everyone else.









ETA: And it struck me as odd b/c the encounter I had w/the Amish woman in the bathroom wanting to know about cd's happened on our vacation last summer.


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## aisling (Apr 26, 2004)

There are two sets of people in this discussion....

One set set says (basically), "I don't know much/anything about the Amish or their beliefs, but even so, this *seems* odd to me..."

the other set is saying, "I do know something about the Amish and their beliefs and this makes perfect sense because...."

What I cannot understand is why the first set is so desperate to cling to their original opinion and defend the misconceptions it is based upon!

It has been said in this thread several times already, but I am willing to try again: Here is a quote gleaned from the site that is linked above regarding Amish beliefs: *"The Amish are admonished to live a life that is separate from the world."* That's all. It has nothing to do with living a "simple" or "natural" life. Those things, _when they occur_, are nothing more than a byproduct of the goal to live seperately, NOT the goal itself.

We have learned that each Order makes its own decisions as to what "Living seperate" means for the members of that order. Sometimes those decisions are made based on symbolic gestures (such as allowing generators but not power lines) and sometimes they are made based on what kind of influence on the order may result (such as allowing electric, generator-run washing machines, but forbidding a television set).

The Amish culture has been becoming more and more commercial in terms of the products that are permitted. Why is it more "Shocking" and "Disappointing" to see an Amish woman with 'sposies than it is to see her with a cart full of all kinds of other Wal-mart crap or even to see her in Wal-mart in the first place? Is it just because diapers are important to _you_ and other things are not? Should I have been shocked and dismayed to see an Amish woman spending hundreds of dollars for top of the line flatware when I worked at the local Oneida store? Shouldn't they, since all Amish are skilled woodworkers, be carving their own? Oneida is far from natural! *NO*, because I'm not the Bishop and I understand that he sets the standards, not me. (Not too mention the fact that assuming they are good at woodworking is a complete stereotype.)

As AnnetteMarie stated so eloquently earlier, there is nothing wrong with having misconceptions about something, we all have them. But at some point, you've got to be willing to be educated. No one is going to give a high-five that "WE WON!" or anything. There is nothing to be gained, aside from continued ignorance, from standing your ground that it is weird fro the Amish to use whatever diapers they choose.


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aisling*
...There is nothing to be gained, aside from continued ignorance, from standing your ground that it is weird fro the Amish to use whatever diapers they choose.

I STILL think it's weird. But then again I think it's weird that pretty much EVERYONE uses sposies considering how much they suck. I understand where they have a definite advantage (going out, vacations, people who don't have a washer) but c'mon! They are leaky and smelly and expensive! How on earth did they get 98% market coverage!?


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## aisling (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boingo82*
I STILL think it's weird. But then again I think it's weird that pretty much EVERYONE uses sposies considering how much they suck. I understand where they have a definite advantage (going out, vacations, people who don't have a washer) but c'mon! They are leaky and smelly and expensive! How on earth did they get 98% market coverage!?

:LOL But see now here, you aren't thinking its weird because of misinformation about the Amish, you think its weird because of your personal experience with sposies vs. cloth. So that's alright!


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boingo82*
I STILL think it's weird. But then again I think it's weird that pretty much EVERYONE uses sposies considering how much they suck. I understand where they have a definite advantage (going out, vacations, people who don't have a washer) but c'mon! They are leaky and smelly and expensive! How on earth did they get 98% market coverage!?

Hooray! Common ground!

I agree.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Meg, everytime you post, I love you more!


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## aisling (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Meg, everytime you post, I love you more!


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
Why is it hypocritical? Are you honestly suggesting that you want to go tattle to the elders and bishops in an Amish community to try to "make" them cloth diaper, just so they better fit in with your misconceptions of how they ought to be?

I'm definately saying that it would be wrong to do that. I said I was not comfortable with the idea of doing that. There is only one main route of change for the Amish - Elder decisions. I'm saying that the only solution for Amish change is not a viable one (morally I don't believe forcing women through patriarchal systems is right), other than one on one education of Amish women because they don't come read our stuff online or read our books, etc.

I feel it's kind of hypocritical or maybe just seemingly contradictory to use a less inflammatory word, because they are a religious group that espouses to general common ideals. I think for most - natural living is a bi-product of their religious beliefs. It's not that they believe you should live natural but deciding to not live with modern conveniences does lead to mostly natural living in most categories of life. Most of the Amish I have lived near live rather extremely natural lives. Much more than most of us.

I would probably also have a similar reaction to hearing that someone from any other group with a strong belief that things should be done a 'certain' way, did the opposite of that general belief. Like if I heard that heavily involved volunteers for environmental organizations used disposables I'd probably react the same way. It seems contradictory.


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

OK, let me explain the pig thing again:

Sustainer's analogy about Jews eating pork a few pages ago is not an apt one, because Jews have a _specific religious commandment_ forbidding them to eat pork.

Amish/Mennonites do not have specific religious commandments forbidding them to use sposies, or, indeed, other "modern conveniences".

Amish and Mennonites often do live simple, natural, old-fashioned lives, but that is not because their religion calls for them to be simple, natural and old-fashioned. It is because their religion calls for them (if I'm correct here) to closely evaluate each thing in their lives and how it affects their community, and how much it brings their community into the "worldly" world. Therefore they live without some of the "modern conveniences" we live with. But it's not because their religion forbids modern conveniences.

So assuming Amish live without cars, say, because they're supposed to be natural and old-fashioned, and saying "I'm surprised Amish use sposies because they're not supposed to use modern conveniences"

is like

assuming Jews don't eat pork because they're supposed to revere and love all pigs, and saying "I'm surprised Jews don't keep pet pigs because they're supposed to love pigs so much."

In both cases there's an incorrect conclusion drawn from inaccurate assumptions about a religion.


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## LGSW (Dec 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trishas Tribe*

Please don't judge their whole community by that one families purchase. Even in their own community there is alot of diversity. I can't blame them for choosing sposies when they are out of the house. I can't think a horse and buggy makes for an easy place to change a diaper :LOL

I agree with this sentiment, but I'd go a step further and say we shouldn't be judging anyone for their use of cloth or disposable diapers.


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## aisling (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sophmama*
I think for most - natural living is a bi-product of their religious beliefs. It's not that they believe you should live natural but *deciding to not live with modern conveniences* does lead to mostly natural living in most categories of life.

_Please_ go back and read some of the other posts (mine, Annettmarie's, Jennisee's) and try to understand that your statement is off and so the rest of your assumptions are off. What I have bolded is NOT the goal of an Amish family. It is as much a byproduct of the admonishment to live seperately from the world as is natural living.

Doing without modern conveniences is NOT the goal itself. If that were the case, there would be no exceptions made ever, because there would be no need for it. Being as Old-Fasioned as possible is NOT a tenant of their religion, nor is NFL.

If has not been deemed hypocritical or contradictory to use disposable diapers, _by the Amish Bishop and/or Elders and/or anyone else in a position to make the decision,_ then it is not contradictory, no matter what an outside "english" person thinks.

Can you see how understanding a little of what the goal of being "Plain" is about makes a difference?


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## medaroge (Dec 21, 2004)

Hmmm, this is turning into an intresting discussion!


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aisling*
_Please_ go back and read some of the other posts (mine, Annettmarie's, Jennisee's) and try to understand that your statement is off and so the rest of your assumptions are off. What I have bolded is NOT the goal of an Amish family. It is as much a byproduct of the admonishment to live seperately from the world as is natural living.

Doing without modern conveniences is NOT the goal itself. If that were the case, there would be no exceptions made ever, because there would be no need for it. Being as Old-Fasioned as possible is NOT a tenant of their religion, nor is NFL.

If has not been deemed hypocritical or contradictory to use disposable diapers, _by the Amish Bishop and/or Elders and/or anyone else in a position to make the decision,_ then it is not contradictory, no matter what an outside "english" person thinks.

Can you see how understanding a little of what the goal of being "Plain" is about makes a difference?


I did read the many of other posts. I do see what you are saying. I would not consider myself to be ignorant of Amish customs in general since I spent the majority of my life in Amish country and have personal acquaintences and some friends within the Amish and Mennonite communities. I have read books on the community and read their newspaper frequently and shop at their stores & restaurants many, many times and lived on the same road. I've been to their churches and weddings and homes (mostly former Amish/Mennonite). I've had Mennonite/former Amish friends since childhood. My parents maintain friendships within the Amish community. That said, I am not the end-all-be all expert on Amish life.

I am aware that the main goal is being plain. What strikes me as odd about the disposables is that in the pursuit of being Plain they have chosen a life mostly free from many modern conveniences. A mostly natural life and many old-fashioned practices is the by-product of how they have have practically applied their belief in the plain life. I shouldn't have used the word hypocritical because that is rather inflammatory and judgemental. Sorry about that. I remember as a kid being struck this same way when my Mennonite friends got permission from their church to borrow our VCR tv because it didn't have reception and only played videos. I thought it was odd that they would be allowed to watch our movies (not all clean!) but no TV. I also thought it was odd when I saw buggies with radios playing rock music in the early 90's. I understand that 'the Plain life' does not equal NFL, or old fashioned etc., but in many if not most cases, it has played out that way. So when you see modern things like diapers, etc. you wonder, at what point did they decide that was ok or did they do it and not ask? It just stands out as being so opposite as the rest of the life they live.

I realize there are many different ordnungs and have many different rules and some are way more loose and some are way more controlled. Even in Ohio/PA there was great variety between the groups. Variety as in some wore all dark /same colors, some decided orange triangles were too flamboyant for buggies, some decided rubber wheels were not ok for buggies. Mennonite groups are another story - lots more variety there.

I guess I kept posting because I got the impression that some felt that only those who are ignorant about the Amish life would be surprised about seeing disposables. I doubt even my Mennonite friend who cut her hair and wore sweat pants at home after she got married, would use disposables. She's still pretty all-natural. I'll ask my mom to ask her Amish friend about it the next time she goes to her house to pick berries together. Maybe she could tell us something? Are there any former Amish here that could speak on the subject? Did I miss someone saying that they were?

Again I am sorry about the use of the word "hypocritical". That was pretty judgemental. I'm not trying to be an a** about this but since the route they have chosen to live out their convictions about the plain life have played out as life without modern conveniences, etc. major exceptions to that have always struck me as odd.


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## larson (Apr 4, 2004)

I agree that this an intresting thread and topic. I had wanted to share that a while back my mom was gathering old t-shirts b/c her church was collecting them to send to some country in Africa so the women could use them to make diapers! How cool is that?!

The comment about elders/leaders of a religious community making a statement about something being hypocritical was interesting. one would think that it would take quite a while for the leaders to do this--list every action that is hypocritical if it is done even though it would fall under a more general umbrella (not relying on the outside, simplifying--whatever 'term' you want to use as an example) of things they don't do/accept.

I think that having a discussion in general about ANY topic is good--and this topic is a GREAT example of how educated many of us are becoming. Now, since no one here is an expert on EVERY single amish/mennonite group in the country, it is surely difficult to say, "You're wrong" or "that's a misconception" because as we have seen here--EVERY GROUP IS DIFFERENT. I certainly think that many people were orginally surprised at amish not using cloth b/c IN GENERAL it seems to go against what they might do in their community. Now, yes this is a generalization, but that is part of life. Are you going to label EVERY idea a person develops based on their experiences with any race/culture/religon/etc. as a misconception? I would hope not. Making generalizations is part of life and how we learn. Think about your children and their daily life. My ds is totally in an 'imitation' stage and I would much rather him be exposed to a little something of everything and have him form his own ideas (and generalizations) NOW and teach him when he's older that one can do research or gather more info on any given topic.

I think where people get into trouble is when they act like my brother and assume that someone is claiming to be an 'expert' just because they've majored in, read a book about, or experienced something.

Sharing your experiences/knowledge does not mean that you assume yourself as an expert on that given topic.

And on the other side, sharing your knowledge/experiences (though limited they may be) I do not think makes you ignorant. It just means that you have limited experiences/knowledge and that there may be more to learn.

Now, to share a little Becky Bailey with you all--try to view what others are saying/doing with positive intent. Assume they are acting in a positive way rather than that they are out to get you or tick you off.

I find this esp. helpful in traffic (though it's harder w/MIL), esp after my dh drove 70 mph in a 55 mph zone the day my dad died. I am sure some thought we were being reckless (what with a child in our car and all) but we were racing to get to my dad on his deathbed (though we didn't know it at the time). You just don't know where others are coming from 100% of the time and instead of assuming the worst, you should assume the best and know that we all make bad choices sometimes though it does not make us bad PEOPLE.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

We need to keep this on topic, please.
I'm thinking this might get moved to another forum very soon.


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