# Workarounds - good or bad idea? *Update: #69



## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

My DD is 18 months old and very well behaved and a real joy. We also "spoil" her according to mainstream views. We rarely take things away from her, pretty much let her do as she pleases, which is rarely a problem. While she's a joy she's also very headstrong and if we ever do cross her (take something away or leave a situation she doesn't want to, etc.) she gets pretty mad. We usually just empathize ("oh, you wanted to keep playing with that... well, let's try this one instead?") which doesn't always work, and in that case we just keep trying to get her interest elsewhere till she cools down. DH is concerned that we're not disciplining her enough.

Anyway, lately in the bathtub with me she likes to put water in a cup or something and then pour it onto the floor outside of the tub. Well, we aren't ok with that. I tell her "water stays IN the tub" but she keeps doing it and I try to block her when she tries to do it, and eventually take the cup away from her. She gets pretty mad. An obvious answer is to remove all cups from the bath for now but lately that's all she wants to play with, and she gets pretty restless in the tub without them.

It occured to me today as she was in the sink (sometimes I bathe her in the sink) and she was pouring water into the OTHER sink (which is ok!!) that maybe I could put a dish pan outside of the tub and let her pour water into THAT. She wants to pour it someplace ELSE other than right back into the tub.

Now, assuming that would actually work and please her (I don't know) should I do it? Or do I need to somehow work with her to understand that some things aren't ok? I don't want her to grow up feeling entitled to do absolutely whatever she pleases and flip out if things don't go her way. That would make for an unhappy person, I think, and also one who would have problems with other people too.

But honestly I don't even know how else to "discipline" her on that issue since telling her that water stays in the tub has absolutely no effect, and she freaks out if I guide her to do anything else or take away the cup.

Thoughts?


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

I'm sure their are lot's of feelings about this, but I personally would not do it. She can handle a small boundary being set. If she's not used to having boundaries, then this one probably does feel big - but you know that it is not unreasonable. If she pours water on the floor and doesn't stop, then I would take the cup away.

OR

You can get two cups and she can pour water from one cup to the other *inside* the tub.

Either way, I think you need not be afraid of simply saying "no" sometimes. I would guess at that age the tantrum is simply because she is unused to being told "no" and she's frustrated. Once you get comfortable with saying "no", she will get comfortable with hearing it. Remember you are not "causing" her to freak out - that is her choice. And anger isn't "wrong". A momentary flash of anger isn't a problem like a habitually angry child would be.

Can't say my advice is "right" - but that's the way we do things.


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## LiLStar (Jul 7, 2006)

I haven't gotten to this stage yet (I only have a 7 week old) so no experience here, but, I think that showing kids creative ways like that to do what they want without inconveniencing others or otherwise doing something thats not allowed is a good thing. I think it teaches them good problem solving skills. Besides, by providing a dish pan you're heading off a tantrum because you don't have to take the cup away, you don't have a mess, and she gets clean and stays happy in the tub because she's not restless without her cup. everyone wins


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

Yeah, you guys basically are just like the little mamas standing on each of my shoulders and whispering in my ear:

Mama1: She needs to get used to boundaries, there's nothing wrong with that. If she's upset, that's not the end of the world, and she needs to learn that too.

Mama2: Yeah, but it there a real need to dive into an issue if it can be avoided? You can easily tweak the situation so she's happy, you're happy, and everything's great.

Mama1: Yeah, but, see, you're putting off the inevitable. She's going to have to learn sometimes that there are boundaries. Mama isn't always going to be there to come up with some creative solution. Sometimes the answer is just going to be No.

Mama2: There's plenty of time for that. Is she really going to learn something just by having bath times be a battle of wills for the foreseeable future?

And on it goes


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laohaire* 
Now, assuming that would actually work and please her (I don't know) should I do it? Or do I need to somehow work with her to understand that some things aren't ok?

I think that IS a way to get her to understand that some things aren't ok. Just explain to her that you don't want water on the floor, but that it is ok to pour water in the dishpan. She's learning about mutually agreeable solutions already








I think its good to teach kids that there are ways to get what they want, that are agreeable to everyone. In the future, she'll start helping find the creative solutions.

I don't have a problem with letting ds be unhappy. But if there is a way to make us both happy, I really believe that's the best discipline there is. There are plenty of things that he has to deal with, that I can't find a solution.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

I'd definitely try the dishpan idea. I think boundaries should only exist where there is a real reason for them, and the emphasis should be on that reason, not on obedience, or instilling respect for boundaries, or anything like that. Your real reason for not wanting cups of water dumped outside the tub is that it would make a mess. If there's a way your DD can dump water out of the tub without making a mess, then there's no problem. AND she gets to see you considering her desires and coming up with a solution that honors them, which hopefully will provide a good example to her of the way people ought to behave towards each other.

The world is full of chances to learn about boundaries - there's no need to create extra ones where they're not absolutely necessary.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

You know, a point has been implied that hadn't occured to me before:

Even having the dishpan outside of the tub is still requiring a boundary. That is, I will need to ensure that she follows my "rule" that the water goes in the tub OR the dishpan - but NOT the floor.

She'll probably have to realize the difference and be careful to pour into the dishpan specifically (I'm sure she'll still try the floor probably). I'm sure that will be a more acceptable boundary to her, yet still a boundary.

So that solution might actually be the best of both worlds, a way to start learning boundaries but still in a way that meets both of our wishes.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

I don't know why you can't have a dishpan in the tub - then you don't have to worry about the floor at all. That's why dd does at our house. I don't like the idea of her getting a feeling for pouring over the side, but I'm a fussy mom. (And I'm have 2 under 3 and going to have 3 under 4, so I try to "nip things in the bud" before they become issues.) You said you were in the tub with her - hold the dishpan for her and show her how to pour the water into it. We also pour the water on each others heads (helps them get over the fear of having water on their heads). There are plenty of ways to pour without pouring over the side of the tub.

My dd doesn't really throw tantrums. She "whines" and she fakes tantrums. But I don't call it a real tantrum when I can say "stop that" and make a funny face and she laughs!


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

The solution to this depends on the mom and child. It sounds like you are very open and fine with the dishpan idea...great! Do it and see how it goes.

On the other hand, if a mama doesn't feel good about this solution (wants to make "the water stays in the tub" the rule going forward, for example), then it seems the good solution is to set that boundary and not do the dishpan.

It seems like both of these options are reasonable and it comes down to the perspective of the parent involved and how they feel about it.


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## bec (Dec 13, 2002)

I think it is a fine solution. I wouldn't, personally, but that is because of the likelihood of missing, and making a mess, anyway. But that's my own preference for no water mess, rather than thinking you are doing something wrong, discipline-wise. Your objection is to water on the floor. She has a need (and, developmentally, pouring, etc. is a need and a milestone) to pour water. You have provided a good solution with the dishpan (assuming you don't mind it).

In my situation, knowing my own frustration level, I wouldn't include the cup as part of bath time, if she wasn't willing to pour from one cup to another container inside the bathtub. Most of our pouring happens with big beads, leggos, or outside with any number of other things.

Anyway, I think you are doing fine. Putting the dishpan outside the tub is setting a boundary. But, it is a boundary that is acceptable to both of you. Good on you, mama!


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## ^guest^ (Jul 2, 2005)

Haha...you DD sounds like mine







I think the dishpan is a great idea. My daughter LOVES the whole pouring stuff from one thing into another activity, and I like to honor and encourage that impulse. I don't think there's any harm in finding a solution both of you can live with. If it's going in the dishpan, then it's not going on the floor...and that's the rule, right? No pouring water on the floor because then it's a big mess to clean up. Now, if the rule is "water stays in the tub at all times", then the solution is not acceptable in accordance with the rule. I guess it's about how you structure the rules.


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

i think finding a solution that is acceptable to both of you is fantastic and teaches your dd that people can work together to make sure everybodys feelings are considered


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## Mpenny1001 (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oliversmum2000* 
i think finding a solution that is acceptable to both of you is fantastic and teaches your dd that people can work together to make sure everybodys feelings are considered









That! I think it would help if you pick if your rule is going to be "no water on the floor" or "no water outside the tub". There are lots of creative ways to still have fun with the water and follow either of those rules, whichever one you choose.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Well...we are assuming she will put water from the tub directly into the dishpan if you provide it









This *really* depends upon the underlying need. If you think her need is to put water from one container to another, a dishpan on the floor (with towel underneath it) is perfectly reasonable to provide. I would try and see if that is her need.

I will say from experience that her intention may be to put water on the *floor*, and the dishpan will just be in her way. If you provide it and she dumps around it, I would remove it and go back too 'Bathtub water stays in the tub' and then show her that she can dump water all she wants on the ground outside. She may throw a fit, but if you continue to redirect her need to dump water to an acceptable location, I think the fit will be short lived.

This is an especially difficult age IMO, as they are old enough to have strong idea's, but often too young to understand that the other person has needs too.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
*I think that IS a way to get her to understand that some things aren't ok.* Just explain to her that you don't want water on the floor, but that it is ok to pour water in the dishpan. She's learning about mutually agreeable solutions already








I think its good to teach kids that there are ways to get what they want, that are agreeable to everyone. In the future, she'll start helping find the creative solutions.

I don't have a problem with letting ds be unhappy. But if there is a way to make us both happy, I really believe that's the best discipline there is. There are plenty of things that he has to deal with, that I can't find a solution.









: You *are* enforcing the boundary that pouring water on the floor isn't OK; you're just also providing her with an acceptable alternative.

She'll learn about boundaries in plenty of situations in her life. I'm not a 100% consensually-living parent, but this seems like one of those "not worth it" power struggle issues to me, one of those times where a creative solution is a win-win for both of you!

Oh, and I hear you o nthe voices over the shoulder; I hear them every day, too!


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## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

*


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## Spanish Rose (Jan 29, 2007)

That sounds excellent.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
Well...we are assuming she will put water from the tub directly into the dishpan if you provide it









This *really* depends upon the underlying need. If you think her need is to put water from one container to another, a dishpan on the floor (with towel underneath it) is perfectly reasonable to provide. I would try and see if that is her need.

I will say from experience that her intention may be to put water on the *floor*, and the dishpan will just be in her way. If you provide it and she dumps around it, I would remove it and go back too 'Bathtub water stays in the tub' and then show her that she can dump water all she wants on the ground outside. She may throw a fit, but if you continue to redirect her need to dump water to an acceptable location, I think the fit will be short lived.

This is an especially difficult age IMO, as they are old enough to have strong idea's, but often too young to understand that the other person has needs too.

Yeah, you're right, and was aware this wasn't a tested solution. I honestly don't know if she wants specifically to put the water on the floor or just outside the tub and/or into a new environment.

The fact that in the sink she likes to pour water into the other sink gives me hope that she just wants to move the water from one area to another, and that a dishpan may fill that.

Only one way to find out









I'll let y'all know how it goes tonight


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Yeah, the good thing here is that you will know immediately whether she wanted the dishpan. She'll either love it or dump the water elsewhere ignoring it. I think it's always good to provide the solutions you reasonably can, because there will be times when it won't be possible. When I do need to introduce a limit, I don't feel guilty, because whenever possible I don't use them. So if I need one (and no dumping water on the floor would be a limit of mine for sure), I know it's from a place of fairness and compassion, not selfishness or insensitivity. You can provide her a place outside to dump all she wants.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

The thing that concerned me about your original post was you seemed to be saying you never have reasons to tell your dd "no". I definately don't think you need to make rules for the sake of making rules, but I don't think you should feel bad if you need to or simply want to at some point.

Honestly, there's a part of me that say "this can't just be about pouring water over the side of the tub - that's such a non-issue!" I saw this thread as more about your underlying fear that you are being too permissive.

We can't really answer that question for you, because we aren't there - but we can encourage you that you are perfectly capable of making these kinds of choices.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

This thread sure goes to show that so much of this depends upon the temperment and personalities of ourselves and our children. That is what I'm really working on with my child now...tuning in to who he is and where he is in his own emotional/physical/cognitive development. How I interact with him is so different than how I might respond to another child. I have a second now and it will be so interesting to see how my parenting has to adjust for him.

With the bathtub situation, my son would have been more apt to be testing what and where the limit is. This is also a very natural process and providing the limit/boundary really does create a sense of security for children.

I'll be interested to hear how your dd does with the dishpan! I hope it turns out to be a good solution for you both.


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## devster4fun (Jan 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
Honestly, there's a part of me that say "this can't just be about pouring water over the side of the tub - that's such a non-issue!" I saw this thread as more about your underlying fear that you are being too permissive.

My thoughts exactly, as I read the thread. I'm so interested in the OP's outcome, as I have the same concerns about my DD entering toddlerhood. I can already see (at 11 months) she is very, very...ummm...determined. She's been a very easy baby and is generally very even keel. In the last few weeks I can see her get frustrated when she can't accomplish something she wants. (ie. pushing a chair across the floor and it gets stuck=crying/screaming until we move it so she can continue pushing)

I'm super-interested GD philosophies and just started reading Unconditional Parenting today. I truly believe a very important goal as parents is to prepare her for life, the real world. I'm already wondering what I think the OP's wondering....is this just too permissive?

The "real world" involves lots of boundaries and rules. Last week when I got pulled over for speeding, the cop didn't want to find a mutually agreeable solution that met both of our needs...I just got a ticket.







:


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *devster4fun* 
The "real world" involves lots of boundaries and rules. Last week when I got pulled over for speeding, the cop didn't want to find a mutually agreeable solution that met both of our needs...I just got a ticket.







:











I'm sorry you got a ticket, but I love the story as it relates to parenting!

I agree, life isn't always about mutually agreed upon solutions. My son is going through this realization now with peers in the neighborhood and at preschool. He wants to borrow his friend's bike and his friend doesn't want to give it up for a few minutes. What to do? What I've come to is that he needs to learn how to accept disappointment. He can have his feelings of sadness and disappointment but he needs to learn how to accept someone else's decision when he has no power over it and move on. I think this is an important lesson to learn.

Now in our family, he has a lot of room to work out solutions that we're all happy with...but that is not always going to happen in life and I'd rather have him learn how to handle that with the security of my guidance and love.

I've been thinking about this thread recently...just gave my two boys a lovely bath.







I was remembering when my now 4yo was 18 mos or so and the whole "water stays in the tub" thing was said so many times. I think it was helpful to set that boundary early on because now baths are so much fun and there is no mess or struggle. I think if I had done the dishpan thing it just would have put off the inevitable rule of keeping the water in the tub.

Water staying in the bathtub seems like a reasonable request. Going outside to pour it anywhere or pouring it from one part of the sink to another seems like a good alternative to honoring the impulse.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

Sorry guys, I don't have an update. The routine yesterday was messed up because I had to work really late (9:30pm) and bathtime was a very quick affair with little play. I didn't have time to go set up the dishpan. Also, we're going away for a few days now, but who knows, I might still have the opportunity to try this out and maybe even update the thread.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
The thing that concerned me about your original post was you seemed to be saying you never have reasons to tell your dd "no". I definately don't think you need to make rules for the sake of making rules, but I don't think you should feel bad if you need to or simply want to at some point.

Definitely true, my main question was whether it was a good or bad idea to spend effort on workarounds or if there was some benefit to just letting things be a "no" even if I could think of an alternative. To date, we really very rarely say "no" (well, we never really say that word at all, but I mean we rarely impose limits), when we do it's usually a unique situation rather than something that would come up again, and we are pretty relaxed and laid back and we let her do as she likes almost all the time. For instance, she likes to pull all the videos off the video shelf, making a mess to clean up. Our feeling is that it's easy to put them back in after she's done and not worth any conflict. While we don't "love" putting the videos away it doesn't really irritate us or stress us out, it's just a quick thing and we're done. But I also do worry if I'm going too far in avoiding conflict with my DD I guess.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
Honestly, there's a part of me that say "this can't just be about pouring water over the side of the tub - that's such a non-issue!"

Well, I don't think it's a non-issue







Water over the edge can cause water damage to the floor / ceiling underneath. We haven't caulked the outside bottom edge of the tub real well recently. And it's just generally not a mess we care to deal with, unlike the videos being pulled off the shelf.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
I saw this thread as more about your underlying fear that you are being too permissive.

Yup.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
We can't really answer that question for you, because we aren't there - but we can encourage you that you are perfectly capable of making these kinds of choices.

Thanks


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

How about a bowl inside the bathtub? That might be satisfying to her for pouring while still meeting the requirement of staying inside the bathtub.

I'd also, when she scoops up the water with her cup, ask "Are you going to pour that into your bowl or into the tub?"


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Hehe, you are so much like a friend I used to have! What I meant by "non-issue" is that honestly, I wouldn't have given this a thought when my dd was 18 months. I would have said "water in the tub", and that would have been the end up it. I guess that's just my personality. My friend would let her baby pull all the books off the shelves, and just put them back like you described. But no way was I going to let that happen!! We have hundreds of books in our house and they are organized by topic so we can find them. I enforced the rule early. I also learned that by enforcing the rule early it never became an issue. My 18 month old had one shelf on a bookshelf fulll of books for her toys - she touched the books a couple times, was corrected, and never touched them again. Maybe I was a little lucky - I guess I'll see how it goes with the next two. If something is just too tempting, then I remove it entirely from the picture.

I'm a low energy person though. I do things slowly and deliberately and thoughtfully. I've always been that way. So to constantly be doing these "workarounds" just wouldn't work for me and my family. Clear boundaries that are the same for everybody is what works best.

The thing I'm not liking about the "mutually agreeable solutions" is that the wording suggests that there is a "problem" that needs "solved". But boundaries are not about problems. Water stays in the the tub - it just *is* at my house - it's not a problem to be worked around. My toddler comes up against a boundary, and she learns to accept the disappointment, frustration, etc. that are a part of life. When we aren't constantly fighting our boundaries, then we are able to turn around and be grateful for all the wonderful freedoms we do have - but when we think there is a chance the boundary can be moved, it is human nature to try and move it.

But someone with more energy and a more flexible nature may find my parenting style far too restrictive. And I think some parents would just rather pick up books than enforce boundaries - so much of parenting I think is just figuring out what you want and are willing to do! I tell you what though - the more kids I have the less I think about the things I do as "right" or "wrong" - I don't make moral issues out of things anymore - it's about what works for me and what doesn't. Have fun finding your way!


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
The thing I'm not liking about the "mutually agreeable solutions" is that the wording suggests that there is a "problem" that needs "solved". But boundaries are not about problems. Water stays in the the tub - it just *is* at my house - it's not a problem to be worked around.

This is how I feel as well. And I believe that it provides security for my children to know the rules and have some limits to work within. For some kids, not have a few clear guidelines makes them feel a little unsafe. Not every kid, but some. My son responds really well to limits because the ones we set make sense to him. We always give him the reason why and that's usually enough for him to respect them.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
The thing I'm not liking about the "mutually agreeable solutions" is that the wording suggests that there is a "problem" that needs "solved". But boundaries are not about problems.

But for people who think that their kids desires/opinions/feelings matter just as much as the parent's do, then it IS a problem that ds's desires would just be blanketly over-ridden when there is a way to do it that would make both parties happy.
There are some times that I just say no. If I know its a situation that I won't be able to handle calmly, and of course safety situations, etc. So I'm not saying that saying no is a bad thing.
But if I can see a solution that will work for me, it doesn't make any sense to me to NOT let ds do it.
Picking up videos doesn't phase me. I don't care. Finding dvd's scratched is not ok with me (and not ok with ds in the long run if he can't watch a video he wants), so that was a boundary that we had- he could only get the dvds out of the case if we were right there and he was putting it in the player, and he held it with his finger in the center hole. But even that was a mutually agreeable solution. He was ok with it, we were ok with it.

I think that kids feel overwhelmed if they feel that their parents are looking to THEM for guidance. (as in overly permissive parents). But I don't think that translates into kids feeling more secure with boundaries just for the sake of boundaries. I know it was said that's not what this thread is about, but it sounds a little bit like it is.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
But for people who think that their kids desires/opinions/feelings matter just as much as the parent's do, then it IS a problem that ds's desires would just be blanketly over-ridden when there is a way to do it that would make both parties happy.









: And, I'd be willing to bet that it certainly feels like a problem to the child.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
But if I can see a solution that will work for me, it doesn't make any sense to me to NOT let ds do it.









Also, if it's working for both me and my child, then there *is* a boundary. By saying "this solution does not work for me, and here's why, but this other solution does work for me-does it work for you?" I _am_ maintaining a boundary. So: water can ruin the floor, I don't want you pouring water on it. But I have no problem with you pouring water in this dishpan. For me, this is a clear boundary: the floor is not okay, the dishpan is. It might not be a boundary if what were really important to me is to have water stay *in the tub* (because I am concerned about an accidental spill while my child is pouring water in the dishpan, for example) or it might not be clear enough if my child is having difficulty understanding that the dishpan is okay but the floor is not.

Also, in finding solutions that work for both of us, my children are learning that they are deserving of respect and that their needs and feelings are as important as everyone elses while *at the same time* learning to respect and take into consideraton the needs and feelings of others (boundaries), to be flexible, to communicate, to be creative. And so am I.









Further, in attempting to find solutions that work for both of us I am not in any way preventing my child from learning to handle and accept frustration and disappointment (I don't find mutually agreeable solutions all the time, sometimes b/c of safety/lack of time/lack of resources, sometimes b/c I am merely a work in progress). I couldn't shelter my kids from frustration and disappointment no matter how hard I tried. That just happens. I imagine that even in a family dedicated to _always_ finding mutually agreeable solutions, frustration and disappointment would happen. One doesn't have to manufacture it, it is part of life.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
When we aren't constantly fighting our boundaries, then we are able to turn around and be grateful for all the wonderful freedoms we do have - but when we think there is a chance the boundary can be moved, it is human nature to try and move it.

I think we only try to move boundaries when said boundaries do not meet our needs (or are not in harmony with our values), or when we can't think of other ways of meeting our needs (or living in harmony with our values) that are in harmony with those boundaries. I don't think people fight boundaries simply for the sake of fighting boundaries. I also don't think questioning boundaries and standing up for oneself in the face of boundaries are always bad things.

So maybe the reality at this time is that "this is the way the world is, people in the real world don't want to find mutually agreeable solutions, they just want you to do [whatever]." But I wonder what it might be like if we were able to move toward creating a society where people looked more toward solutions that work for everyone involved. Who says the way the world is now is the way it will or should remain? Who says a person who has learned to work with others to seek mutually agreeable solutions isn't flexible and strong enough to live quite successfully in the world as it is today (or will be in the future)-or, perhaps, to change it for the better in some way?

So, as to the OP's question regarding whether or not 'workarounds' are a good idea, I think they're a very good idea-so long as the 'workaround' really works for both parties.

ETA I want to be clear that this is my opinion, my thought process, and not a judgment of anyone else's methods or opinions.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

I agree with all the different opinions stated here...again, it comes down to what is mutually agreeable and, obviously, some of the mamas need/desire boundaries when other mamas can let it go.

One of the concerns I have is making sure that my children are respectful, polite and appropriate (for lack of a better word) when they visit other people's houses...or when we have folks over. Basically that they have good social skills and can navigate in the greater world with relative ease and comfort. I've been to several friend's homes where their children are literally climbing the walls, throwing things, yelling, etc. and it's just plain uncomfortable to be there for everyone.

We are social beings and have to be aware of other people...I think it is very important to teach children how to handle giving up their own needs at times for the sake of others.

I'm not saying this very well, but it's something I struggle with when these discussions come up.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Yeah, I'm very clear to ds that he is NOT to stand on the furniture when we go visit dp's cousin. He doesn't question it (though he might forget a time or two, but when he's reminded he quickly responds). I'm pretty sure he knows that I wouldn't tell him not to stand on furniture if I didn't have a REALLY good reason. lol


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
Yeah, I'm very clear to ds that he is NOT to stand on the furniture when we go visit dp's cousin. He doesn't question it (though he might forget a time or two, but when he's reminded he quickly responds). I'm pretty sure he knows that I wouldn't tell him not to stand on furniture if I didn't have a REALLY good reason. lol









: DS knows that some things are fine here, but are not fine at other people's houses; I think that *because* we work with him most of the time to figure out ways to honor whatever it is he's trying to do (though again, we're not a completely consensual family), that he is flexible enough to be OK with not doing things other places that he can do here (and understands when we say 'no', it's for a good, non negotiable reason). For instance - jumping on the beds at home? Perfectly fine. Not so fine at Nana and Papa's (cause their bed is really high off the ground, and the twin beds in the guest room are really wobbly). And he's cool with that.

We definitely have boundaries and limits, that's for sure - and I have pretty high standards for his conduct in public - but when it's something at home, that we can easily find a compromise for that satisfies both our needs, we jump on it.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg* 
I think we only try to move boundaries when said boundaries do not meet our needs (or are not in harmony with our values), or when we can't think of other ways of meeting our needs (or living in harmony with our values) that are in harmony with those boundaries.

I disagree. I think there are some boundaries that simply interfer with our *wants*, and if we think that we can move them, then we will try. Everything I want is *not* a need - and somethings I want are plainly and simply bad for me. I *love* Moutain Dew - but it is bad for me and my unborn on many levels. I can justify to myself many reasons as to why it is ok to go around the boundary I set for myself - but none of the reasons are valid or true. The boundary may *feel* like a problem, but it is not the problem - *I* am the problem, my attitude is the problem. Just the same - a child who wants to throw water on the floor may feel like the boundary is a problem - but the boundary is not the problem, the child's attitude is the problem. The more comfortable we get in a world full of boundaries (natural and man made) the more peaceful our lives will be. Not to say that we don't push at boundaries that we feel or immoral or against our values - but it is not healthy to be unable to live with some degree of boundaries.

Furthermore, by setting simple clear boundaries on occasion without looking for a workaround, I am not saying my child's feelings, desires and opinions don't matter - that is rhetoric CL people like to throw around alot and it is pretty insulting. I can totally understand why a child wants to do something, I can totally empathize with their frustration, and I can totally listen to what she has to say - but that does not mean as a parent it isn't my role to decide now and then that I'm simply going to make an executive decision. And it doesn't mean in making that executive decision, my child's feelings don't factor in.

Finally, I am a great believer in simplicity - a world where the boundaries are consistant and predictable is very comforting for many children and adults. Constant negotiation is not pleasant or respectful to personalities such as my own. I tend to read "no you can't do this, but you can do that" as simply "no", and I find it far more respectful to simply be told "no".


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

2bluefish, I gotta agree with most of what you've said. Great points.

It's been said here and there on this thread that when a mama says "no" it means "no" and the child understands that. In our case, sometimes I say no too quickly and we talk about it. I really am a believer in accepting that I am human, not supermama. I get irritated, make mistakes, say no too much on some days, etc. My son sees that in me and I'm glad...we talk about it and learn from it. I've learned a tremendous amount about myself in this journey of parenthood.

I think it is unnerving for a lot of children to negotiate so much. A friend of mine was recently talking about this after she went to a Waldorf seminar about the importance of saying no. She realized that she negotiates way too much with her son and it has created a lot of unnecessary struggles for them.

I think it's also unrealistic to think that we can almost always find mutually agreeable solutions. My son is having a very hard time transitioning right now. I can give him a few more minutes, a warning that something will end and he'll sometimes still come unglued. It could be hunger, being tired or just working through this particular issue. I don't think it's my job to avoid that this is hard for him. Transitions are a part of life...he's going to have to learn ways to manage it...with my help, of course.

Each child is different and holding true to any philosophy doesn't seem like a wise way to go, IMO. Taking what works with a particular child and being willing to make mistakes and change along the way is what this is all about for me. It evolves and it is eclectic. I love that....there's no right way to do it and every day provides me with new terrain to explore as I develop into the parent I am and strive to be for my kids.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swampangel* 
Each child is different and holding true to any philosophy doesn't seem like a wise way to go, IMO. Taking what works with a particular child and being willing to make mistakes and change along the way is what this is all about for me. It evolves and it is eclectic. I love that....there's no right way to do it and every day provides me with new terrain to explore as I develop into the parent I am and strive to be for my kids.

Beautifully put, I don't shun "mutually agreeable solutions" - I think I use that concept alot! I also admit there are probably times when I don't use a mas, but could. But I also think there are times when a simple yes or no is the most respectful answer to give. As a strong-willed mama married to a strong-willed man with strong-willed children - I find that often the best thing for us is to simply lay out our "demands"! Rarely are our demands in conflict with one another. I may have an "opinion" about everything! But that doesn't mean everything matters to me! Often the one with the strong opinion is the one who gets to choose.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
Furthermore, by setting simple clear boundaries on occasion without looking for a workaround, I am not saying my child's feelings, desires and opinions don't matter - that is rhetoric CL people like to throw around alot and it is pretty insulting.

I'm not CL. And I don't see how it's insulting to say that, IF I believe my child's desires are *just as important* as mine, then it IS a problem for me to blanketly over-ride his desires, when I can figure out a solution that takes both his desires and my desires into account.
Like I said, I'm not CL. I say "no" to some things. But if there is a solution that works for both of us, I really don't get why I wouldn't do it.

I don't think it's dishonest to say "no, you can't do x, but you can do y." It's letting him know that if you can find a way to do what you want, where everyone is happy, then...good for you!! I am obsessively honest with my ds. I make sure that everything I say is honest. I don't think I'm being snide by saying to him "Don't hit me. If you want to play with me, we can play pat-a-cake." How is that dishonest, or giving him the wrong idea? I don't get it.
I do see how it would be "dishonest" to say "You can't hit me....Here...look at this pretty bird outside!" So maybe that's what you're talking about.

I agree with the over-negotiating thing. But I think that comes back to "looking to your child for guidance" and I think that is VERY unsettling for a child.
For example if ds gets upset, and I do anything and everything (even to the point of distracting to something totally different) to make him happy again, asking each time "is that what you want?" I think that's too much for a child. It doesn't feel good.
But if its a matter of "I don't want water on the floor. Hey, it might be fun to pour water in this bucket!" that doesn't feel even remotely the same.


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## marion10 (Sep 28, 2005)

The problem with the dishpan on the side of the tub is that usually one doesn't throw water over the side of the tub. (and as others have mentioned how are you going to make sure that is stays in the dishpan.). I would encourage pouring inside the tub and make sure that my child had plenty of opportunites for water play other than in the tub. Water is fun and pouring is interesting- if you are in the backyard, you can pour all over the place. But if the water did not stay in the tub, then the cups would be removed.


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## indigo_sue (Jan 2, 2007)

I'm new to the GD forum. I recently read "unconditional parenting" and had mixed feelings about it, but I did like the basic principles.

Something I haven't seen brought up in this thread yet is the issue of safety. Now I'm not a mom yet, but I'd imagine safety is a pretty top concern for parents. When water goes outside the bathtub (or sink) then it creates a safety hazard for people who want to get out of the tub and walk around. Wouldn't it make more sense to a toddler that water stays in the tub because otherwise toddler/mama/dad could slip and fall and hurt themselves? It's hard for a 3 year old to understand the cost associated with fixing a floor because the water does damage around the bathtub, but they can certainly understand the principle of keeping a safe space around them.

I hear a lot of parents saying they have boundaries about things that would create a mess. Thinking creatively, as a toddler, I'd have to say that messes are fun sometimes, so why would I want to always respect a boundary like that? I want to see the mess! Making a mess is playful, and hey if someone _else_ has to clean it up, where's the problem for _me_? Sometimes you _want_ to do activities with your child that create messes which are inconvenient to pick up but worth it because the activity (cooking?) is enriching, so what's the difference between those messes and the ones the child is not allowed to make?

Safety, on the other hand, is something that a child knows is important for everyone. Water on the floor is unsafe. A pile of DVDs or books all over the floor is unsafe because it can be tripped on, or someone can step on it and break the DVD which would make the child sad. Wouldn't these be better reasons to explain the boundary to your child than just "that makes a mess and it inconveniences me so please don't do it?"


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## mwherbs (Oct 24, 2004)

I would probably just give her a bath in the sink all the time and that would be the end of dealing with the potential no or the confounder of the dish pan outside the tub. I would also think about if the bath needs to be over with sooner if boredom is driving the actions---sort of like breaking suction on a teething nurser when they are done and before they bite--
pouring things and dropping things teaches a child physics and how to predict/anticipate --so in and of it's self it is not an action to be avoided all the time- just in certain instances , certain substances , certain places-- for me that seems like too many details for a little one.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

"Constant negotiation is not pleasant or respectful to personalities such as my own. I tend to read "no you can't do this, but you can do that" as simply "no", and I find it far more respectful to simply be told "no"."

Me too. I think negotiation is great but it can also be exhausting. I prefer for people to tell me their desires directly, and I will think of a way to satisfy us both by myself. With a small child, I'd rather say "No, that makes the floor unsafe" and just introduce another game without treating it as compensation.


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## rumi (Mar 29, 2004)

Quote:

Water over the edge can cause water damage to the floor / ceiling underneath. We haven't caulked the outside bottom edge of the tub real well recently. And it's just generally not a mess we care to deal with, unlike the videos being pulled off the shelf.
have you tried explaining all this to your dc, in more or less these words, with appropriate elaboration as needed (what is caulk?)

this approach works well for us. dd then becomes more interested in understanding these matters than pouring water outside the tub (a problem we know all too well)


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## Emmom (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rumi* 
have you tried explaining all this to your dc, in more or less these words, with appropriate elaboration as needed (what is caulk?)

this approach works well for us. dd then becomes more interested in understanding these matters than pouring water outside the tub (a problem we know all too well)









:
Some of my and 2-yr-old ds's best conversations are about why he can't do things. There's nothing so delightful to him as hearing about what can and can't go in the toilet, and why, and where everything that does go down the toilet goes, etc. etc.
What I've learned from these forums is that it's all about your tone and attitude. As deva33mommy says, asking children what they want and if this or that thing is ok can make them nervous (in my limited experience) because then they sense that you don't know what you're doing. But to calmly set *real* limits (including your own desires and your own comfort level about messes, etc.), suggest alternatives that meet underlying needs (and I think every desire stems from a need, I don't think desires should be dismissed), and encourage participation in finding a solution is *very* *different* from "negotiating." The word "negotiating" makes me think of a hostage situation, where you're trying to find solutions because you're afraid of some power the other party has over you... in this case maybe the threat of a tantrum.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
I'm not CL. And I don't see how it's insulting to say that, IF I believe my child's desires are *just as important* as mine, then it IS a problem for me to blanketly over-ride his desires, when I can figure out a solution that takes both his desires and my desires into account.

I was reacting to this statement:
"But for people who think that their kids desires/opinions/feelings matter just as much as the parent's do, then it IS a problem that ds's desires would just be blanketly over-ridden when there is a way to do it that would make both parties happy."

The implication of this statement is that if a parent over-rides her child's desires without looking for a MAS then she is disregarding her child's desires/opinions/feelings and valuing her own desires over her child's. As I explained before, this simply isn't true.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
Like I said, I'm not CL. I say "no" to some things. But if there is a solution that works for both of us, I really don't get why I wouldn't do it..

Well, yeah, that sounds like a no brainer. But you are assuming that there is truly a MAS. As a mother taking into account the needs of my entire household - not just my own desires - I often make snap decisions that a boudnary is needed. That doesn't mean I don't care about my toddler's feelings, but I have the benefit of foresight (which and 18 month old does not), and can see that something has the potential to cause more problems down the road. Much easier to just make a boundary and convey it with cheerfulness.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
I don't think it's dishonest to say "no, you can't do x, but you can do y."

I'm not saying it's dishonest. I'm saying it is wordy. And for a strong-willed child, it can be confusing. You see if I would have been told as a child "you can't pour water on the floor, but you can pour it into this washtub." Then I would have been trying to pour it in the trashcan, in the toilet, on a towel, on mommy...etc. Because I would be trying to understand exactly what the boundary is. Much simplier to simply say, "water stays in the bathtub." Also as a strong-willed person, I often do not care for compromises - if I can't do what I want, then I'd just as soon completely change direction. It's just frustrating and irritating to have somebody trying to placate me. My husband and children are this way as well - we are very direct with one another, and we are happy that way. The more direct I am with dd the easier she is to deal with.

What *would* be disrespectful is to not explain boundaries. Explanations are an important part of teaching and helping children grow into competent adults. Through explanations I respect my child's feelings and desires and hopefully foster a relationship of goodwill, so that when I occasionally need to ask without explaining my child will be cooperative.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

ITA with *Emmom* about how MAS are different from negotiations.
My reasons for finding alternatives that honor the impulse have nothing to do with avoiding a tantrum, or keeping ds from getting mad. The sound of crying doesn't bother me. It's because I think that whatever impulse behind the behavior was legitimate, and it deserves to be expressed in a socially acceptable way. And because I know that ds desires to behave in a socially acceptable manner, and if he learns an acceptable way of expressing it, he's more likely to use it next time.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
I was reacting to this statement:
"But for people who think that their kids desires/opinions/feelings matter just as much as the parent's do, then it IS a problem that ds's desires would just be blanketly over-ridden when there is a way to do it that would make both parties happy."

The implication of this statement is that if a parent over-rides her child's desires without looking for a MAS then she is disregarding her child's desires/opinions/feelings and valuing her own desires over her child's. As I explained before, this simply isn't true.

But in this particular situation, the OP has a good idea for a potential MAS. She asked if it was a good idea to use it. I don't see how it wouldn't be a good thing to use it, if it is indeed mutually agreeable. That's what I was saying wasn't being considerate of a child's desires. If you can see a way that would make you both happy, and you refuse to do it on principle, or some such thing. (and if dumping water into a bucket outside the tub isn't agreeable to you, then it's not an MAS).

And really, if I refuse to let ds do something that he wants to do, and I don't search for a MAS, then how is it that I'm *not* valuing my own desires over his?
When I tell ds that his teeth need brushed, and he says that he doesn't like them brushed, and I insist anyways, then I'm definitely valuing my desire/need for his teeth to stay in his head over his desire to NOT have a toothbrush in his mouth. That might not be the best example because it is health/safety related.
I'm just pointing out that if I enforce my way, and ds is unhappy about it, and I don't do everything I can to find a MAS or an acceptable alternative, then I'm not seeing ds's desires as being as important as mine.
I do that sometimes (especially when I'm getting really frustrated). I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm just saying that it is what it is.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

To the OP, I don't think you should worry about workarounds, at least based on my experience. I'm a mother of three under four, and when my dd was 10 months old, I used workarounds all the time. I also never told her no. I have had no backlash from this whatsoever, as far as I can tell. She's four now and frequently follows the rules I set and respects my boundaries. Not always, but I wouldn't expect that from a four year old.

Now my almost two year old gets told no a lot more and has a lot fewer workarounds. He's also pretty easy to get along with, for an almost two year old, so I'll have to let you know what he's like in a couple of years







And number three, well, who knows?

Anyway, I think one of the best things you can do for your child is to try to figure out how to achieve what they want and work together. IME, this is also one of the best things you can do for your relationship, because you will foster a feeling of teamwork and they will want to reciprocate. My children have NOT shown a need to push every boundary when I try a "workaround", it's usually the opposite, in fact. The more I can compromise and share with them, the more willing they are to do the same.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
Anyway, I think one of the best things you can do for your child is to try to figure out how to achieve what they want and work together. IME, this is also one of the best things you can do for your relationship, because you will foster a feeling of teamwork and they will want to reciprocate. My children have NOT shown a need to push every boundary when I try a "workaround", it's usually the opposite, in fact. The more I can compromise and share with them, the more willing they are to do the same.









:


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
And really, if I refuse to let ds do something that he wants to do, and I don't search for a MAS, then how is it that I'm *not* valuing my own desires over his?

If you are making choices for your family based on your *desires* then yes, you are valuing your desires over his. However, a mother should be making choices for her family based on the needs of the *entire family.* In my foresight as a mother of 2, wife of 1 and pregnant with #3, I can see multiple reasons for the rule "water only in the tub". I do not suggest that rule out of my own desires, but from my knowledge of the world. Mothers need to make these kinds of judgement calls all the time. And what I'm reacting to is not any particular scenario, but a general impression I get that some moms feel that they *must* on principle look for a MAS *anytime* their child is unhappy about something. As a mom sometimes I help my child look for a solution to her problem, but sometimes I let her figure out her own solutions, and part of life is realizing that not all problems are really problems, and not all problems need solving. A great number of "problems" are made my poor attitude and negative perception.

There are many factors moms must take into account when choosing how to react to a given situation - including the personalities of the children in question, the parents in question, everyone's needs, etc. And moms need to have confidence that they can make good choices, and not be undermining themselves with self doubt and guilt. That final thought is what I have been trying to contribute to the conversation - take it or leave it!


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
If you are making choices for your family based on your *desires* then yes, you are valuing your desires over his. However, a mother should be making choices for her family based on the needs of the *entire family.* In my foresight as a mother of 2, wife of 1 and pregnant with #3, I can see multiple reasons for the rule "water only in the tub". I do not suggest that rule out of my own desires, but from my knowledge of the world.

I don't see how one can say a rule of "water only in the tub" is some sort of universal mother foresight, when many mothers in this thread have said they thought water outside the tub (in a dishpan) was a great idea.

If you don't want to wreck the floor or clean up or throw down a towel or hold a toddler's hand so they don't slip or make sure the dumping is only in the dishpan (all of which sound perfectly reasonable--esp. on any given long day!







)--aren't all those reasons still born out of *your* desires?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding.....


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I guess it would be true that when I make decisions like that that I AM putting my desires above his. It's basically ds and me at home most of the time. And the dogs, but they don't demand much. lol. (Though my dog Brooke is dying of cancer, so her needs and desires pretty much come first at this point).

One word about compromises. Something was bothering me about that, and I couldn't figure out what. It's that when I tell ds "Don't hit me. If you want to play with me say 'let's play a game'" it's not a compromise. His original impulse wasn't to hit me. His reason for hitting me was that he wanted to interact with me, or was overexcited, or was feeling really playful, whatever. So I'm not telling him "no, you can't do what you really want, but here's something that might be close." I'm telling him a better way to go about getting what he wanted in the first place.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
And moms need to have confidence that they can make good choices, and not be undermining themselves with self doubt and guilt. That final thought is what I have been trying to contribute to the conversation - take it or leave it!









I agree


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
I don't see how one can say a rule of "water only in the tub" is some sort of universal mother foresight, when many mothers in this thread have said they thought water outside the tub (in a dishpan) was a great idea.

Well, I didn't say it was *universal* foresight. It is what *my* foresight and intuition tell *me.* And it is taking into account my *entire* family's needs for safety, an orderly and undamaged home, and time management. These aren't just desires; they are needs.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
Well, I didn't say it was *universal* foresight. It is what *my* foresight and intuition tell *me.* And it is taking into account my *entire* family's needs for safety, an orderly and undamaged home, and time management. These aren't just desires; they are needs.

I gotcha!

But, here's where I think "workarounds" (as the OP put it) work better for me than hard and fast rules. there's always the exception, you know? So, if the rule of "no water out of the tub" is made out of concerns for safety, orderliness, not damaging property, and time management (again, all reasonable and logical)...what about the day that Daddy has the other kids out and about, I'm planning on washing the towels that day already, and am just having a leisurely day with the one kid? In that situation, why can't the kid pour a couple of cup fulls of water into a dishpan? No one's going to be walking through, a towel or two can be laid down, and there aren't any outside time conflicts. Nothing's going to be damaged if a few drips get on a towel and those are just going in the wash anyway. The rule no longer makes sense to me. And I'm sure it just seems like a big roadblock to the kid at that point.

Anyway, the whole idea of putting down a towel and a dishpan seems like such a great idea to me--and just not that big a deal in terms of extra effort or work--but, my kids spend a lot of time in the tub and someone does need to be there anyway b/c the little one isn't yet 2 yrs. But, I can *totally* understand why a mama might not want to do it on any given day. And in that case, I would totally tell my kids that I just didn't feel like dealing with it. I'm sure they'd offer to wash the towels or wipe up the spills or some such to find an agreeable solution, though! I think that level of problem solving is fantastic, myself.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I think that's a great point.
The times that I do find a MAS, doesn't mean that I have to offer the same solution the next time if it is not agreeable to me then.
So, my saying its not a big deal to splash water this time, doesn't mean that ds won't understand that it's important to keep water in the tub next time.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

I'm not saying it's dishonest. I'm saying it is wordy. And for a strong-willed child, it can be confusing. You see if I would have been told as a child "you can't pour water on the floor, but you can pour it into this washtub." Then I would have been trying to pour it in the trashcan, in the toilet, on a towel, on mommy...etc. Because I would be trying to understand exactly what the boundary is. Much simplier to simply say, "water stays in the bathtub."
I have to say I think you make an important point. We are talking about an 18 month old with the OP, and some at this age cannot engage in much conversation, cannot discuss past or future, and all they can understand is the immediate present. "Water stays in the tub" really is less confusing than "Water only in the dishpan on the floor but not the floor" or any other finely balanced agreement on water placement.

Now, personally, if I had an 18 month old determined to dump water out of every bath, I'd stop the tub baths and hose him down with the spray nozzle in the sink, and a few inches of water for splashing fun.

I just wouldn't put him back in the tub. If he asked for it I'd distract him and offer something different until he forgot about the whole issue. I'd try big tub baths again when he was a little older, a little easier to talk to about things like water damage









I wouldn't be trying to find tons of ways to help him dump it on the floor safely, because I KNOW that with ds, he wouldn't have remotely understood this kind of dumping or that kind...it was all about flinging the water any which way that struck him as interesting. So anything based on compromise would have only upset him. It really would have been kinder and more respectful to simply stop big tub baths and do something else, or possibly, to have a simple rule like "water stays in the tub" (but I don't think that would have helped ds at 18 months either).


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## mwherbs (Oct 24, 2004)

:


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

It just seems that so much of it is personality. My dd got a new toddler bed for her 2nd birthday. That little move of freedom from sleeping in a crib to sleeping in a bed *rocked her world*! For the next few weeks (and maybe this is still ongoing!!) she tested every boundary that had ever been set. It was like her little brain thought - well if I'm old enough to get up out of bed on my own, am I old enough to make myself a sandwich?, get water from the water cooler?, run my own bathwater?, pick out my own clothes?, etc. She thrives on consistancy.

I am the same way - I'm happier and healthier with a schedule. I love being a free spirit but on the flip side, without planning and discipline tend to stay to long in bed, get absorbed in book, internet, TV, project, you name it and be late for obligations, tend to neglect to eat in a timely fashion - instead eating when my blood sugar is plumetting, stay up to late, etc.

Independent spirit is another issue - dd is extremely independent. We looked up from making dinner this evening to find that she had fed herself and the baby each a container of yogurt! Didn't ask - didn't look for direction - just did what she wanted to do! (I was particularly disturbed that a 2 year old was feeding my 8 month old!!) I can see that a child that looks to the parent for direction might not struggle if they are allowed to do something one day that they aren't the next. But dd is writing everything in her mental notebook - if I let her do something one day, you can be sure she'll be doing it unsupervised the next! It's really been quite a shock, because the second year she stuck to me like glue and looked to me for direction for everything. But literally since the first night she slept in the toddler bed, she seems to think she is done being directed!

Potty training has been a particular challenge, because she refuses to tell me and utilize my guidance. She will try to go and clean herself up, when she is not really capable of handling that on her own - makes for some really frustrating moments and messes for mommy!!

So knowing all this about *my* child; I'm not excited about giving her any new ideas that might backfire! We've go 2.5 acres for her to pour water to her heart's content - outside.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Wonderfully put Heartmama - age appropriateness is as important as personality.

I gave dd kitchen sink baths at that age - and she can pour into the other side as much as she wants!


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I am amazed at what some children CAN discuss at a very early age. But ds was just like a big ole' strong baby at 18 months. Nothing was up for discussion with him--either he could continue whatever he was trying to do, or he could be removed and distracted with another activity. There was no in between that he could comprehend. He wasn't capable of thinking about how to meet my needs or situational needs. I don't think he understood I was actually another separate being until he was closer to 3. Before that he seemed flummoxed by any indication that I could possibly want anything other than what he wanted. Man, I was tired








Simply removing and distracting worked extremely well. As long as I could point him in a direction where he could go at the situation 200%, he was far happier. Anything that required carefulness or restraint, forget it, he was going to be miserable trying to understand. I think we spent most of that year simply turning him loose in various sand boxes, mud puddles, and our completely childproofed home. He simply could not be expected to be careful or to do less than test the tensile strength of every surface, object, and person in his vicinity at 18 months. That was his *need*. I think this is the balance of needs and wants. He might have wanted a bathtub full of water. But if I gave him that, he would NEED to throw himself at it like a whirling dervish, and I knew that. So, instead I gave him a kiddie pool in the yard. Now, that might not have been what he asked for, but it gave him greater freedom.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

And here I am smack dab in the middle again, agreeing in part with both sides of the argument but leaning towards the CL/MAS side. I'll admit, sometimes I just make a decision without even looking for a workaround. Most of the time, a workaround is easily found and implemented. And thus far, things have gone pretty well in our house, if I do say so myself (notwithstandng the occasional "Ack!Help!" post here







). DS knows that most of the time we find ways for him to do the wacky things he wants to do, but sometimes, we don't. We talk about it either way (and not long, exhausting discussions). And though he might protest if it's a 'no with a reason', he comes to terms with it. I think that's a pretty acccurate representation of the real world; sometimes you can find a way to do exactly what you want, but sometimes, there's a boundary and you don't push it.

I WILL say that going along with heartmama's recent post, that DS was not really able to grasp the 'give and take' notion of MAS up until he was around 2 or 2-1/2, so I did *more* decision making up until then and *less* workarounds, because he was very single minded and usually if it wasn't EXACTLY what he wanted to do, it wasn't OK...but as he has matured, so has our frequency of quickly finding MAS. And I agree with whoever it was who wrote that "negotiation" gives an implication of fear and trying to placate someone; whereas offering an alternative (or listening to a child's suggestion) is opening yourself to a different outcome, but still setting a definite limit.

Soooo. Maybe the OP will find the dishpan works, and is a great solution for them - or maybe her DD will decide that pouring on the floor is the only acceptable alternative, so OP will in fact institute a "water stays in the tub" rule. As she wrote earlier, "Only one way to find out"!!

Since having my second, I've seen how much individual personalities come into play, and already see that I'm going to be parenting my DD differently than my DS, based on her temperament and needs. I think if your child is amenable to work arounds, it's great to use them; if they're an 'all or nothing' child, maybe not so much (as I wrote above, we've had a fluid movement between the two depending on his age and other factors). Guess I would just say to those who are interested, but thinking that MAS may be a slippery slope, to give it a try because that's not always the case.

Note: If you would have asked me 5 years ago about any of this, I would have been a total hardass (a gentle hardass, but a hardass nonetheless). I never would have believed I would have been a MAS-leaning parent - but, here I am! I'm still more authoritative than many mamas here, but I've let go of a lot and quite honestly it feels great!!


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## rumi (Mar 29, 2004)

Quote:

So I'm not telling him "no, you can't do what you really want, but here's something that might be close." I'm telling him a better way to go about getting what he wanted in the first place.
you said it!!

Quote:

I'll admit, sometimes I just make a decision without even looking for a workaround.
yes, in fact i think this happens most of the time, and it is only in the cases when the child feels a problem with it that the issue of MAS arises. Often the child is being very perceptive, creative, and insightful in pointing out an option that we assume is not an option, and we have to be responsive in explaining why it is not an option, if in fact it isn't. Our explanaiton may or may not convince, and we may actually rethink, if not at the instnat, in the future. I dont call myself CL either but I believe in transparency in parenting.

and i agree wholeheartedly with Emmom who wrote:

Quote:

Some of my and 2-yr-old ds's best conversations are about why he can't do things. There's nothing so delightful to him as hearing about what can and can't
same here - and we had these conversations long before dd was fully articulate herself. Jsut the fact that we were explaining, we taking her views seriously, helped us earn her trust. I think I have said it before - we respect her authority, she respects ours.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

"gentle hardass!"









re. 18 mos. and language: I don't see why a baby or toddler who can understand, "Water stays in here," with some animated pointing at the tub and reminders, couldn't also understand, "Water pours into here," with a dishpan. That's not such a big leap, is it?

I think that 18 mos. is the perfect age to start talking out solutions and creatively meeting everyone's needs and wants. My little guy is 22 mos. (







: my BABY!!!), and he can easily answer "yes" or "no" questions in cases like this. "You want to pour water out of the tub?" "'ES!" (Big head nod). "Hmmm....well, let's not pour it on the floor. What about this?" (Holding up dishpan--and yes, there are two in the bathroom loaded with bath toys!







). And then I'd show him/help him use that w/out making a flood. And he'll sometimes do stuff like hold the cup over the floor and look up like, "This OK?" and then I can just tell him, "No. In here," and point to the dishpan.

I think little scenarios like this are great opportunities to model flexibility, problem solving, considering other's feelings and wants, and show my kids that I'm generally *trying* to work with them (which helps a lot when issues come up where I can't).


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

re. 18 mos. and language: I don't see why a baby or toddler who can understand, "Water stays in here," with some animated pointing at the tub and reminders, couldn't also understand, "Water pours into here," with a dishpan. That's not such a big leap, is it?
Maybe. With ds I don't think either would have worked.

Generally speaking once ds had an inclination to do something at 18 months, it was all or none. I could have shown him the dishpan, and yes he might have dumped water in it....AND he would have thrown it on the walls too. He wouldn't have understood the dishpan was to be used *instead* of throwing water on the walls. It would just be a bonus target.

And even saying 'water stays in the tub' would have been more like a prayer I chanted while distracting him with some interesting "water in the tub" games. I wouldn't have said that and expected him to agree. If tub baths were really needed, I would have tried some different tub toys--one's that suctioned to the inside wall maybe, to keep splashing over there, and phased out anything that resembled a cup. I might have tried tub paints or a little basketball hoop for tossing things through--and with ds these distractions might have worked. What would NOT have worked, was commentary on the wall soaking/cup tossing behavior. He couldn't understand that something he wanted to do should be done differently than how he was doing it. He could *not* understand that at 18 months. Immediately pointing him towards a different and interesting activity was much easier for him to accept.

He wasn't like that forever, and I clearly remember this age as one where the environment had to do 99% of the work. Discussing after-the-fact was just not effective. He was an extremely physical high energy toddler.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
He wouldn't have understood the dishpan was to be used *instead* of throwing water on the walls. It would just be a bonus target.

And even saying 'water stays in the tub' would have been more like a prayer I chanted. . .


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
I think that's a great point.
The times that I do find a MAS, doesn't mean that I have to offer the same solution the next time if it is not agreeable to me then.
So, my saying its not a big deal to splash water this time, doesn't mean that ds won't understand that it's important to keep water in the tub next time.

See, this would drive both of my children absolutely NUTS! Maybe it's their ages, maybe it's their temperament, but if I allow them to pour water into a dishpan once, I have to be ready to do it a hundred times or endure a LOT of crying and whining about how I let them do it last time. Or the time before. Or once six months ago in a fit of stupidity.

Ds especially craves routine and consistency. One day last week all of the child-sized bowls were dirty and he wanted ice cream. I tried to offer it to him in one of the adult (i.e. earthenware) bowls and that WOULD NOT DO. He eats off child-sized stuff. Period. I had to wash a bowl for him, even though I really didn't want to. OK, maybe that was a MAS (love that acronym!) because it was clearly more important to him than to me what bowl he ate out of (even though I was muttering to myself - 'just once, just once, could you be a tiny bit flexible?')

But I have to be very careful with both of my kids about setting/not setting boundaries. If I set a boundary, I need to be consistent with it -- to keep ds happy, and to keep dd from trying to negotiate around it constantly. (This is the child who at 2 1/2 told me "Momma, I'm strong. When you're strong, you can drink beer," as I was pouring a beer for dh and me. She'd already tried the direct approach "I want beer" and failed on several earlier occasions.) So I have to think "do I feel strongly enough about this to treat it like a 2 year old drinking beer - as something that simply isn't going to happen, or is it something where I'm OK if they do it?"

What I find is that if *I* am comfortable and confident about the boundary, then my kids are too. They've got a 'momma's not sure' radar that instantly detects when I'm waffling. I find that if I'm always thinking "gosh, I wonder if there's a mutually agreeable solution" then my kids go nuts. I'll gladly offer a MAS if I can think of one quickly, or if my kids offer one to me, but more than that just wasn't working for us.

So, to the OP - if you're OK with your dd dumping water in a dishpan for the next 3 years, why not? Personally, I worked on the "water belongs in the tub" solution and gave our kids lots of toys to pour into while in the tub. But for me, the safety issues and potential damage to the house meant that I never even entertained another solution.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

DD is the same way as your DS, Lynn. She remembers everything and takes great stock in habits. Often I have let her do things once, to find out later I am going to have to let her do it everyday or endure a fit.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

My 5 yr. old is a lot like that, too. Once at 2 yrs. he started crying b/c daddy put his waffle in the "wrong" toaster slot!







: I had no idea that I had been putting the waffle in any particular slot, but he noticed and that was how it was supposed to be, apparantly!

But, the more we are able to be flexible and offer creative solutions and do problem solving together, the more flexible and "go with the flow" he's becoming.


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## Emmom (Sep 11, 2005)

Wow, I've learned a lot about personality, here. Intellectually, I know that every kid is different, but I only have one, and somehow observing friends' kids doesn't make it as clear to me as this thread does--children just have different personalities, and respond to different things.
My ds just doesn't give a rat's a$$ about consistency. And he loves explanations... he can be running willy-nilly for the street, and if I shout "stop! no!" etc. he keeps going. But if I calmly say, "that's a road, there are cars coming very quickly. i need you to stick by me until we can tell it's safe." then he freezes and waits for me.
He's just a workaround kind of guy, and I'm just a workaround kind of gal. 2bluefish, you've given a great explanation of how _you_ don't like doing workarounds because _you_ like consistency. That's so interesting. Me, I like it. It's fun.
So... with my ds our personalities go really well in this arena. And same with 2bluefish and her kids, it sounds like. What happens when there's a personality conflict? Mom likes workarounds, kid doesn't, or vice versa? Any experience, anyone? Is that your case, Heartmama?

This is such an interesting thread!!


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## Julianito (Mar 14, 2006)

I hear you about the two mamas over your shoulder. I'm find myself thinking limit issues like that alot. That said, I took a GD workshop which said neurologically speaking a child doesn't develop the capacity to hold limits until about 2.5 years old. Redirecting seems hard in this situation, so the bucket idea seems like a great way to ease both of your frustrations for the next year. Good luck!


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
See, this would drive both of my children absolutely NUTS! Maybe it's their ages, maybe it's their temperament, but if I allow them to pour water into a dishpan once, I have to be ready to do it a hundred times or endure a LOT of crying and whining about how I let them do it last time. Or the time before. Or once six months ago in a fit of stupidity.

Ds especially craves routine and consistency.

That is fascinating to me. And what 2bluefish has been saying. I hate routine, I hate consistency. I hate having to do the same thing the same way every time. Dp doesn't feel that strongly, but definitely isn't a routine type person. Ds is the same way. The only "consistency" we do is that if something has a good reason, that's what we do. The only "rule" is that we can't do things that harm other people animals or property (and we try not to do things that others don't like done to them, although that one is definitely not consistent because the dogs don't like their nails cut, and ds is WELL aware of that, and I do it anyways. But I explain it as best I can)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Emmom* 
My ds just doesn't give a rat's a$$ about consistency. And he loves explanations... he can be running willy-nilly for the street, and if I shout "stop! no!" etc. he keeps going. But if I calmly say, "that's a road, there are cars coming very quickly. i need you to stick by me until we can tell it's safe." then he freezes and waits for me.
He's just a workaround kind of guy, and I'm just a workaround kind of gal.

This is exactly us!!!


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

Wow, sorry for being so late updating. First, we went away for a while. Then, we returned, and life interfered, lol. Then, last week, I typed up half an update and then I got called away (baby crying, if I remember correctly) and then everything got lost. When I wrote last week I had specific responses to various things people said, but this time I haven't done a fresh re-read, my apologies.

Anyway, the big thing I took away from this thread was that everything depends on the people involved (child and parent(s)) and there is no one catchall solution or approach that would work for everyone, it seems.

For my DD, the workaround worked. But, I see that it may well have not worked for a variety of other children, based on what PP's said.

What happened? Well, I brought in a dishpan once while we were taking a bath. DD wanted to pour water outside the tub, so I just placed the dishpan in the appropriate position. She happily poured water into it. Sometimes I had to make sure to correct her aim a bit (she was more being sloppy rather than purposefully aiming wrong). She did this for all of five minutes, then started pouring water INSIDE the tub.

Next bath, about the same thing.

Bath after that, I didn't have the dishpan. And she didn't try to pour water outside the tub. We've had about, oh, maybe a dozen baths since then, and the only time she tried to pour water outside the tub during that time was once when the cat was hanging around right outside the tub and she thought it would be fun to get him wet, lol.

So this worked well for us, but I see DD has some characteristics that were conducive to this particular workaround. She is not a boundary-tester. Sure, she's hotheaded about doing things SHE wants to do, but she never wants to do something just BECAUSE it's against the rules, and I see that some kids enjoy that







It's rare that her wishes are against the rules.

She's also not a chaos-seeker. She doesn't enjoy specifically making a mess (sure, she does often make a mess as a byproduct of another activity, but making a mess is not the specific desired result).

So, it seems for DD, allowing her to dump water outside of the tub met her curiousity and after she tried it, it became a nonissue.

Thanks for everyone's input!


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Excellent. I'm glad it worked for you!

And you're so right about the temperaments of everyone being a determining factor in whether this kind of solution will work or not.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Thanks for the happy update


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