# How would you react to this?



## ZanZansMommy (Nov 8, 2003)

Your 5 year old daughter is told by your friends 5 year old daughter that babies are made when a hard penis goes into the vagina & it feel good (the child doesn't know this. mom just told her it feels good). Friends 5 year old just brings it up out of the blue (we were hiking through the woods) & has been told by mom not to discuss this with anyone.

This did not happen to my daughter because she was not within ear shot of this but it could have easily been my child. When my friend was confronted with this information, she became defensive & said, "I don't know why people feel the need to keep this from their kids. I just won't lie." What she actually means is she _selectively_ lies.

Thoughts please.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

well, it sounds like the girl asked how babies are made and her mom told her. I wouldn't choose to tell my five year old that much information but I don't think it is wrong. lots of my childrens friends had that much information when they were that age. and you can never expect a five year old to keep their mouth shut about anything...they are five. talking is their favorite pass time.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

are you objecting to the penis in the vagina part or the 'hard' and the 'good' part?

by 4 1/2 my dd knew about penis in vagina. she already knew about conception since she was v. young. she asked. i told her. she has always been v. fascinated by the reproductive and digestive system. she would not let me hedge. no mama tell me EXACTLY how the sperm gets to the egg. how does daddy's sperm get into your body? not fulfilling her request would have meant turning it into an obsession.

so how i feel about her saying it? perfectly fine. the hard and good is a little 'shocking' to me - but i can understand the mom is making sure dd doesnt think of it as something undesirable. not to mess her up about sex. i would be perfectly fine with dd's friend telling her that. i would be perfectly find dd's friend coming upto me and telling me that.

speaking for myself i would have prefered to hear the truth rather than all the wierd stories i was told which confused me and had me curious till i finally got the right answer. i know some of my friends were messed up and thought kissing would produce babies. i remember so clearly my mom refusing to answer my question when i was 7 telling me i was too young to know. i still remember that moment thinking how ridiculous she was being.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
well, it sounds like the girl asked how babies are made and her mom told her. I wouldn't choose to tell my five year old that much information but I don't think it is wrong. lots of my childrens friends had that much information when they were that age. and you can never expect a five year old to keep their mouth shut about anything...they are five. talking is their favorite pass time.

Doesn't sound unreasonable. I know sex is a taboo subject in many families, and we haven't covered everything yet in our family, but this wouldn't bother me at all.


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

No big deal here, either. I don't see anything selectively truthful about what she said, and I'm sure she got defensive because she was "confronted with the information". I get defensive, too, when I'm confronted.

It appears that the child asked her mother how babies were made and was told the mechanics of it. I could certainly see a five year old following up that talk with something like, "Doesn't that hurt?" and being told, "No, it feels good." Again, no big deal.

The mother even told the daughter that it was something that shouldn't be discussed with other children.

How would you have rather the other mother handled her child's question in order to protect other people's children?


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

What your friend's dd said isn't much different from that in the book "Where Did I Come From?" by Peter Mayle, which I read to my child about age 5. (See description & reviews at http://www.amazon.com/reader/0818402...5Fdp%5Fpt#noop, including reviewers' saying they used the book at about age 5.)

FTR, my daughter is also the one who used the word "clitoris" aloud to a peer at about age 4. (Yup, she wanted to know about the parts of her body, including "the part that feels good.") The other kid's mom was furious, but I apologized only for my dd's age-appropriate lack of discretion, NOT for her knowing the word (which other mom found shocking). I explained to other mom that body knowledge empowers kids, esp girls, against sexual and physical abuse - the theory is that having a reporting language reduces the risk of unreported abuse.

Of course we as mothers of preschoolers can teach social circumspection - that is, that it's not ok to talk about sex, gentiltalia, farts or poop with people other than our parents and doctor, unless we're reporting someone trying to touch or photograph us - but IME that's a lesson that takes a few years to be mastered. Example: my almost-7yo started singing about farts in company last night.


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## baglady (Jul 13, 2009)

Some people give their kids the whole story pretty early. That's their choice and I don't think people should lie. However, when someone chooses to give that graphic detail to their kids, they should consider that they are also deciding to give the info to their kid's friends too. Five year olds are talkers and the info will get out there. That's just my opinion though.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

I can see why it would be a little upsetting. Sure, every child has a different curiosity level and families share this information differently and it could put a parent in an uncomfortable situation to have this kind of information thrust upon a child that as-yet knows nothing about sex.

My own 7.5 yo has not asked a single question about sex. This would have put us both in an awkward situation as dd does not even know that it takes a sperm and an egg to make a baby. She is curious about the body, in general, but sexuality is simply not on her radar... at all. I'm sure it will be in the near future, but I want it to come from her own natural curiosity. I think it's important that kids learn about this as their natural curiosity arises about it, and not have the information thrust upon them unsuspectingly. If parents think their children are mature enough to have the information, the children should also be mature enough to understand that it's not a subject that is for open discussion.


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## Mama Mko (Jul 26, 2007)

I wouldn't have a problem with it at all.


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## zipworth (Jun 26, 2002)

No problem here either.


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## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

It would bug me a lot more to hear a five-year-old say that the stork brings babies, or that you find them in cabbage patches or some other nonsense story like that.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I might be a bit shocked at first because so few parents I know would tell their 5 yr. old that much info.







But then I'd assume the little girl asked and her parents told her. I wouldn't word it the way the parents in the OP did and I started out with less info then added more as my kids asked more. But really it's up to each parent to decide how they answer those kind of questions from their children. It does get tricky though when that child that has all the info decides to share it with other kids. I believe kids ask for the info they are ready for at any given time and that doesn't work if your child is told all by another child. I'm not sure I explained that well. But overall not a big deal to me.


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

I would and wouldn't have a problem with this. Yes, I agree, the 'truth' should not be kept from children. If they ask where 'babies come from' I think its okay to state the basics..... But I would be uncomfortable saying (or having such things said to my child) as 'hard penis feels good'. I mean, I am comfortable with scientific basics, but not the whole 'sexual-ness' of it all. I wouldn't want to give the wrong message iykwim.

Of course - the little girl probably asked something like 'does it hurt?!?!' with shock when her mother told her what happens - and of course her mother told her it 'feels' good. Or something like that. So whilst shocked at first, I think I could see the innocence in it as well.


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

*shrug* What I see here was that the mom probably gave her some decent information, which went into her five-year-old brain and came back out phrased in a slightly more five-year-old-ish way.

I could see a five-year-old questioning to the extent of this knowledge:

"Mommy, how are babies made?"

"The daddy puts his penis into the mommy . . . "

"Where?"

"Her vagina . . . "

"But penises are soft!" (A five-year-old may have seen her brother or father naked at some point)

"Penises get hard sometimes."

"Why would you do THAT?"

"Because it feels good."

Translation to five-year-old language: A daddy puts his hard penis into mommy because it feels good.


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cschick* 
*shrug* What I see here was that the mom probably gave her some decent information, which went into her five-year-old brain and came back out phrased in a slightly more five-year-old-ish way.

I could see a five-year-old questioning to the extent of this knowledge:

"Mommy, how are babies made?"

"The daddy puts his penis into the mommy . . . "

"Where?"

"Her vagina . . . "

"But penises are soft!" (A five-year-old may have seen her brother or father naked at some point)

"Penises get hard sometimes."

"Why would you do THAT?"

"Because it feels good."

Translation to five-year-old language: A daddy puts his hard penis into mommy because it feels good.









:

that's how I imagine the original conversation took place. It seems totally age appropriate to me. I understand the mom being defensive, because frankly if someone thought it *wasn't* age appropriate they were probably angry at the mom who told the truth.

this folks, is why it is important to tell kids about sex and drugs and other things before their friends do! Because they are going to hear about it somewhere.


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## mandib50 (Oct 26, 2004)

it wouldn't bother me.
i don't get the part about your friend "selectively" lying though - how is she selectively lying?


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

I don't have a problem with this either. My DD knows the basic facts and has a book (It's Not The Stork) which she is capable of reading herself. I haven't comletely vetted the book. I think it has info about the clitoris, etc.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mandib50* 
it wouldn't bother me.
i don't get the part about your friend "selectively" lying though - how is she selectively lying?









: I don't understand that part either -- where does the selective lying come into all of this?


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

I really don't see the issue. I mean, yeah, you haven't gone there with your kid yet. Other parents have different ideas about when this sort of knowledge is appropriate. I don't see how something like this wouldn't happen, unless every parent in the world sat down and had "the talk" with their kids on the same day. I mean, I think this mom did more to prevent this than I have (I don't think I've ever told my kids that talking about how babies are made with people outside the family is inappropriate.) I'm not sure why a confrontation was necessary, although I do think bringing it up to the other mom is fine (if for no other reason then to make sure that the mom knew she had this knowledge, and that it came from mom and not someone who was molesting her or something). I'm not sure what you expected other mom to do - apologize for teaching biology to her child?


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## funkymamajoy (May 25, 2008)

How would I react? I don't think I would have. The child had correct information in age appropriate terms.

How did the mom selectively lie? Because she didn't go in ART or rape?


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I forgot to add that being confronted does make one feel defensive. I think confronting the mom was over the line really. She was not wrong for telling her daughter what she did and no one should have called her out for it, I think she deserves an apology for that.


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## Pepper44 (May 16, 2006)

I think it's a little more shocking the way it sounded--a hard penis feels good. But I also could see how the innocent conversation could have led to that. I wouldn't be upset if my DD heard that.

My DD just turned three and she is very curious and matter of fact about body related issues. She wanted to know all about birth, and she tells people that a baby is very tiny in the mom's belly then grows bigger and bigger and one day gets so big that it crawls out a special hallway next to the pee-pee hole. Then it gets milk from the mom's boobies. This horrified my dad when she explained it to him.







I can see how questions about HOW the baby gets into the belly might not be too far off...I would rather be honest and answer her questions than make it into something mysterious or lie.

I also don't understand how your friend is selectively lying? What she said seems like the whole truth!


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

I would have no problem with that conversation. I think it's perfectly reasonable for a 5 year old to have all that information.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
I think it's important that kids learn about this as their natural curiosity arises about it, and not have the information thrust upon them unsuspectingly.

Why? How would it harm them to be given the information when they hadn't thought to ask for it? Don't you give your kids all kinds of other information they haven't specifially asked for? Yeah, sex is a topic that kids could potentially be embarrassed to hear about, but that seems more likely if you wait until they're older, and also if you give them the message that it's a difficult, embarrassing subject by never bringing it up until they basically force you to by asking direct questions.


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## lonegirl (Oct 31, 2008)

See....I would be opposite to most here. I would have a problem with it. I would mention it to my friend (nicely). Sure I am sure that it started out innocently but for me I don't think 5 y/o is an age to discuss full details with. I am one who teaches proper names (penis, breasts, scrotum) but still would have difficulty talking this indepth at that age. That's just me though


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## averlee (Apr 10, 2009)

I think it's a very good idea for kids to have reliable information and also to feel comfortable asking and talking about things that might be embarrassing. Especially considering that many girls begin to menstruate at only age 8 or 9 these days, they should have a pretty good grasp of concepts of human sexuality before then right? Also, I think girls especially deserve the truth, because sometimes it really hurts when a baby is born, and sometimes menstruating is really uncomfortable, but sex really is supposed to feel good and girls & women even have a special body part fully devoted to feeling good. I don't think anything I've said here would be bad info for a 5 year old- but my daughter is only 2, I don't know.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lonegirl* 
See....I would be opposite to most here. I would have a problem with it. I would mention it to my friend (nicely). Sure I am sure that it started out innocently but for me I don't think 5 y/o is an age to discuss full details with. I am one who teaches proper names (penis, breasts, scrotum) but still would have difficulty talking this indepth at that age. That's just me though










I can see if you aren't ready to talk to your daughter about this, but what would you expect the other mom to do?


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## mandib50 (Oct 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
I can see if you aren't ready to talk to your daughter about this, but what would you expect the other mom to do?










the mom had nothing to do with it ... it was two 5 year olds talking to each other, so how can the mom control that kind of conversation? i teach my little ones about sex and their bodies but certainly cannot control what they might say to a friend.


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## LaLaLaLa (Oct 29, 2007)

My DD is 5 and my DS is 3.5, and they have recently asked about "but how does the baby get IN there?" so we had the conversation. Twice so far, actually. My kids know that sperm and egg each have half of the information required to create a baby, and the sperm and egg need to combine. Mom has eggs, dad has sperm, and dad put his penis into mom's vagina to deliver the sperm to the egg.

My kids haven't asked for more information than that, but if they did ask I would certainly talk more about the mechanics of sex with them. I'm hoping to build up an environment of matter-of-fact answers and trust, so they will feel okay talking to me when they are pre-teens and their peers tell them all sorts of weird things about sex.

We attend a weekly playgroup with ten other moms and their kids, who are mostly around 5, too. I've fully warned the other moms about the information my kids have. They've mostly laughed and told me they'll send their kids to me for the talk when they start asking questions. I've apologized in advance for anything my kids might say to their kids, and nobody is avoiding us, so I guess they're okay with it.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
Why? How would it harm them to be given the information when they hadn't thought to ask for it? Don't you give your kids all kinds of other information they haven't specifially asked for?

Sex is natural. Like birth and death, disease, etc.. I'm not going to start explaining death or disease unless there is a context for it... usually that happens naturally and as with every other "milestone", the children prompt the parents when they are ready to learn about these things. I think it's logical to just follow your child's lead... as usual for AP. I would no more want a child explaining death to my dd than I would birth or sex... because how we explain it may not be how another family explains it. That's why I say that if a child is trusted with information on sensitive subjects, they should also be trusted to keep it to themselves.

Sure, I give dd information she needs to operate within her world. Currently, sex is not part of that world. When she's ready to know, she will naturally become curious about it and I will make sure she has all the information that is AGE APPROPRIATE. By the time she is ready to have sex, she will have all of the information she needs. At 7.5, she neither wants, nor does she need to understand the mechanics of sex.


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
Sure, I give dd information she needs to operate within her world. Currently, sex is not part of that world. When she's ready to know, she will naturally become curious about it and I will make sure she has all the information that is AGE APPROPRIATE. By the time she is ready to have sex, she will have all of the information she needs. At 7.5, she neither wants, nor does she need that information.

And a lot of kids are at that level of curiosity long before 7.5. I'm the oldest of 5 siblings, and I knew the biological basics of sex long before 7.5 . . . why was I curious? Well, because my mom was popping out another kid every 18-24 months. At 7.5 I had 4 younger siblings.

I also recall that I discussed the knowledge I had with other kids before or around that age. Kids who were convinced that kissing lead to babies and other such nonsense. Kids don't have a filter on things that are just part of life to them.


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## beckyand3littlemonsters (Sep 16, 2006)

I wouldn't react it's not quite the way i would have worded it but at least it's the truth too many kids are under the illusion that the baby just magicly appears in mummys tummy and then one day mummy goes to the hospital and wow a baby.
I've told my lo's where baby comes from just in more kiddy terms (girl parts and boy parts) i've also told chloe that having a baby hurts a lot.


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## Mandynee22 (Nov 20, 2006)

I probably just would have told the mom that her DD was, infact, telling so that she could maybe remind her not to just tell random people how babies are made- in case their parents don't want them to know just yet.
I don't have too much of a problem with what she did tell her though. DD found out how they're made when she was 6 and I was pregnant. She also had strict instructions to keep it quite, just like she would have if I had told her Santa wasn't real.


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## lovemybubus (Oct 2, 2007)

I think it sounds totally appropriate.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
so how i feel about her saying it? perfectly fine. the hard and good is a little 'shocking' to me - but i can understand the mom is making sure dd doesnt think of it as something undesirable.

I've only read to here, but i don't find it shocking, because I remember telling ds1 that it felt good, when he was about 5 or 6. He'd asked a lot of questions, and also wouldn't settle for vague answers. When we got to the "penis into the vagina" thing, he got really upset, and thought it must hurt the woman. I'd far rather tell him that it feels good than let him go through life thinking his daddy was hurting his mommy all the time (this all came up after my second miscarriage), yk?


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I would react by saying that this is true information and getting the book for kids that goes more in depth about how baby's are made. My dd hasn't pushed to know exactly how the sperm gets inside to get to the egg yet so I haven't told her about that part, but if she pushed or heard about some of that aspect from a friend I would definitely get some educational books about it and use them as talking points. Most parents select what they are going to teach their children about and that differs from family to family. I don't think this girl's mother has done anything wrong nor has the girl done anything wrong.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Having read the rest of the thread...the "hard" part doesn't even begin to faze me. Honestly, the inclusion of that word strongly suggests to me that this child had a Q&A session with her mom (similar to the one described by cschick in post 14). I could see the idea of the penis getting hard being a natural response to a child's question, but I've never known a mom who just randomly told her kids that a man puts his "hard" penis in a woman's vagina, yk?


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
That's why I say that if a child is trusted with information on sensitive subjects, they should also be trusted to keep it to themselves.



The problem comes in that some kids are ready to know this information before they are able to keep secrets.

Quite frankly, it's a really hard line to walk between teaching a child that it's not polite to start talking about hard penises and vaginas and baby making to just anyone and making sure they aren't ashamed of talking about sex at all, thinking that it's such a secret thing that maybe if someone touches them they should just keep it to themselves. I'd rather my child err on the side of being too open about sex than being too secretive about it.


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
When she's ready to know, she will naturally become curious about it and I will make sure she has all the information that is AGE APPROPRIATE. By the time she is ready to have sex, she will have all of the information she needs. At 7.5, she neither wants, nor does she need to understand the mechanics of sex.

Why would we question if this particular child is ready? Yours might not have asked questions yet, but this particular child might very well be.

I wasn't looking forward to my own dd bringing up sex, at age 5 she only knew about sperm and egg, but never asked me how the sperm meets the egg. About a year ago she asked me more questions, and it feeling good did come up because she looked scared and asked why would anybody do that.

Now I never asked my Mom anything about sex. My Mom was very open when ever I asked questions about anything, but for what ever reason I never wondered where babies came from. I was near 11 when I asked my Mom. Seems crazy to me now that it took me that long to be curious, but as the youngest child I guess I never had a reason to wonder.

My dd attends a private christian school, so I told her that I trusted her that she would keep this information to herself for now. That talking about sex is a conversation between a child and their parent, not their friends.

She has come home from school several times telling me that "so and so talked about sex", both times the kid asked dd if she knew what it was, and she replied yes, they said "no you don't" and dd said you need to talk to your mom about this. Or maybe dd and the other child talked about what sex is, and this is just what she told me. Either way, kids are curious, and information gets around. It's natural to talk about it IMO.


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## vegemamato (Jul 4, 2007)

I wouldn't be uncomfortable at all.. In fact, I'd probably LMAO (later) at the five-year-old sex conversation









It may seem strange to hear all of those words looped into one very mature sentence, but it's important to understand the context- which was that the girl was interested in where babies came from and she effectively learned the who, what, how and why..

My kids would surely shock you with some of their, ehem, knowledge









(and I also agree with the pp that mom should get an apology for the 'confrontation' since, IMO, she did nothing wrong..)


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## bethanyclaire (Dec 17, 2004)

I am also one of the mamas that wouldn't bat an eye at that conversation. Like a pp suggested, it would bother me more to hear a child explain that a stork drops off a baby or it grows in a cabbage patch. I wouldn't correct that child or his/her parent, of course, but I would reinforce my child's knowledge about the subject later on in private.

I can see, without any hesitation, how a conversation about sex may have easily come to include the words "good" and "hard." When DS and I discussed sex he also was afraid that it hurt and I reassured him that it didn't. I am very matter-of-fact about sex with both of my kids... just like I am about other issues. We have also talked about the fact that all families handle these issues differently and that they aren't conversations to have with friends, strangers or other people who we wouldn't discuss other private issues with.

So no, it wouldn't bother me at all and I would be hurt if my child happened to talk about it and other parents were angry with me.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vegemamato* 
(and I also agree with the pp that mom should get an apology for the 'confrontation' since, IMO, she did nothing wrong..)

Yes, I agree with this, too. Neither she nor her child have done anything wrong!

My older dd was 4 when I became pregnant with her sister. And she was one who wasn't satisfied with the simple "sperm meets egg" story -- she wanted to know specifically HOW it happened. To be exact, she asked if she could watch us, and I explained that sex is a very private thing.

But even though I wasn't willing to have sex in front of her, or show her videos of other people having sex, I of course wanted to do my best to satisfy her curiosity by giving her accurate information. I also did say that not all of her friends knew this stuff yet, and that their parents wanted to be the ones to tell them when they had the questions.

And it never really came up with friends or friends' parents, or at least it was never brought to my attention. But as far as withholding the information until they ask the questions -- my current 4yo isn't as verbally-advanced as her sister was at this age (plus I'm not pregnant), so she hasn't directly asked these same questions yet.

However, she HAS seen our female cat going into heat and mating, and then going through pregnancy and giving birth. She's also seen bugs mating. I'm not sure if she exactly connects the sex with the babies at this point -- but she enjoys watching her own birth video, and periodically asks to see this or other "babies coming out of mommies' butts" which we can easily find with a quick google.

She loves reenacting her own birth, and also having her little toy animals and her dolls give birth.

It seems more surprising to me when I hear children have reached puberty without ever having expressed any curiosity about sex or reproduction -- but I guess it can happen. Still, when parents say they don't want their children to discover anything about sex until they think to ask the questions themselves, I can't help wondering if they plan to keep them indoors 24/7 and keep them away from all kinds of nature study.

Because sex is all around us. It's the stuff of life, you know. The other day my oldest saw flies flying and mating at the same time. Cool stuff.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ZanZansMommy* 
Your 5 year old daughter is told by your friends 5 year old daughter that babies are made when a hard penis goes into the vagina & it feel good (the child doesn't know this. mom just told her it feels good). Friends 5 year old just brings it up out of the blue (we were hiking through the woods) & has been told by mom not to discuss this with anyone.

This did not happen to my daughter because she was not within ear shot of this but it could have easily been my child. When my friend was confronted with this information, she became defensive & said, "I don't know why people feel the need to keep this from their kids. I just won't lie." What she actually means is she _selectively_ lies.

Thoughts please.

I might spurt out my water if I just taken a sip on the hike. but I wouldn't be bothered by it if she was giving my 5 year old the info.

Add me to the list of those who completely doesn't get what you mean by saying your friend is _selectively_ lying.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

It wouldn't bother me, and I certainly wouldn't confront the child's mother.


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## Thisbirdwillfly (May 10, 2009)

Quote:

"But penises are soft!" (A five-year-old may have seen her brother or father naked at some point)
How in the *world* would a 5 year old girl know that a penis being soft is problem when it comes to how it enters the woman?

I think the information was too graphic for the age. Most five year old girls who know that the penis is not always soft have been sexually abused. If a five year old shared with me that she knew that detail of sex, I'd be very concerned.

Which is exactly what I would say to my friend. I'd also tell her I find it difficult to believe that she didn't already know that five year olds tell everyone, everything and that some parents would find that language either inappropriate and/or disturbing.


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thisbirdwillfly* 
How in the *world* would a 5 year old girl know that a penis being soft is problem when it comes to how it enters the woman?

I think the information was too graphic for the age. Most five year old girls who know that the penis is not always soft have been sexually abused. If a five year old shared with me that she knew that detail of sex, I'd be very concerned.

Which is exactly what I would say to my friend. I'd also tell her I find it difficult to believe that she didn't already know that five year olds tell everyone, everything and that some parents would find that language either inappropriate and/or disturbing.

Logical deduction? I wouldn't find it odd that a five year old might think of that as a problem, and also wouldn't find it odd that a five year old might not think of it as a problem. It all depends on how that particular five year old thinks about things.

And seriously, I fall on the side of "if you find that language inappropriate and/or disturbing" you haven't been around a lot of five year olds. Maybe it's because my neighborhood is currently filled with kids from 4-6 years of age . . . they talk about butts, they talk about penises, they have really weird imaginations when it comes various types of bodily functions. They're obsessed with bodily stuff. Really, their conversation is constantly on the somewhat gross and inappropriate side of things.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thisbirdwillfly* 
How in the *world* would a 5 year old girl know that a penis being soft is problem when it comes to how it enters the woman?

They wouldn't necessarily _know_, but they could guess at it. I'm constantly astonished at some of the connections dd1 makes about things.

Quote:

I think the information was too graphic for the age. Most five year old girls who know that the penis is not always soft have been sexually abused. If a five year old shared with me that she knew that detail of sex, I'd be very concerned.
That wouldn't go off on my radar at all. I'd guess the child had asked a lot of questions.

Quote:

Which is exactly what I would say to my friend. I'd also tell her I find it difficult to believe that she didn't already know that five year olds tell everyone, everything and that some parents would find that language either inappropriate and/or disturbing.
So, she's supposed to not tell her daughter things, because someone else may not want to hear it from her daughter? I'm not going to decide what my kids can know based on what other people want _their_ kids to know. I tell my kids what _I_ want them to know.

I also wouldn't just assume my child would talk to other kids about it, especially if I'd said not to do so. DD1 probably would, so I know it can happen. But, before dd1, I'd have based my assessments on ds1, and he was incredibly discreet, even as a small child. He just had an amazingly well developed sense of what was appropriate in what circumstance.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cschick* 
And seriously, I fall on the side of "if you find that language inappropriate and/or disturbing" you haven't been around a lot of five year olds. Maybe it's because my neighborhood is currently filled with kids from 4-6 years of age . . . they talk about butts, they talk about penises, they have really weird imaginations when it comes various types of bodily functions. They're obsessed with bodily stuff. Really, their conversation is constantly on the somewhat gross and inappropriate side of things.

Uh, huh. DS2 (4) is always making comments about kissing penises and stuff. He thinks it's _hilarious_ (he has never actually tried to kiss a penis). I don't find it worrying...just incredibly tedious. DS1 mostly skipped the potty humour phase, but dd1 and ds2 are both heavily into it. Blech.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thisbirdwillfly* 
How in the *world* would a 5 year old girl know that a penis being soft is problem when it comes to how it enters the woman?

I think the information was too graphic for the age. Most five year old girls who know that the penis is not always soft have been sexually abused. If a five year old shared with me that she knew that detail of sex, I'd be very concerned.

Which is exactly what I would say to my friend. I'd also tell her I find it difficult to believe that she didn't already know that five year olds tell everyone, everything and that some parents would find that language either inappropriate and/or disturbing.


I wouldn't assume a child had experienced abuse if they had that level of info (for example, 6 yo dd knows penises get hard because she has a 3yo little brother who thinks it's fun to announce when it happens to his - also from books from the "It's Not the Stork" series, but little brother has probably reinforced it), but it is a level of detail that a lot of kids that age might not have. For that reason, I probably would mention it to the girl's mother, because if the mother didn't know where she got the info, it would be good to follow up on.

As to the second part of this post - I don't even know what to say to that. I'm not going to lie to my kids so they might not tell your kids something you don't want them to know. At what point would it be okay to give that information? When you do tell your daughter, will you check with the parents of all the kids she knows to see if anyone has any objections?


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Uh, huh. DS2 (4) is always making comments about kissing penises and stuff. He thinks it's _hilarious_ (he has never actually tried to kiss a penis). I don't find it worrying...just incredibly tedious. DS1 mostly skipped the potty humour phase, but dd1 and ds2 are both heavily into it. Blech.

Right. Maybe I get the brunt of it because I'm usually the mom down WITH the 4-6 year olds.

We ended up in an odd position in our neighborhood: there's a whole bunch of kids about 18 months OLDER than the kid, and a whole bunch of kids about 18 months YOUNGER than the kid, but no kids his own age, and he'd much rather play with the big kids than the babies, so I'm typically with him and the older kids making sure he doesn't get run over by them. (Their moms have all moved to "distance supervision" from the deck/porch/patio).

But the bad potty, genital, romance humor . . . it starts by 4. I'm not quite sure how many kids get past about 4 or 5 without having some basic sexual understanding. THAT I actually find to be the problem: when 4 or 5 year olds are making weird wise-cracks about it all, that's what the other 4 and 5 year olds are taking away from it. I doubt many parents are telling their kids that babies come from kissing, but some stupid kids are telling other kids that with an air of authority.


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## vegemamato (Jul 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cschick* 
I doubt many parents are telling their kids that babies come from kissing, but some stupid kids are telling other kids that with an air of authority.

I've had kids ask me about the baby/kissing thing.. First, I ask where they heard _that_ from, then I tell them to ask their parents









Guess some people would rather me not hint at the unreliability of their theory/information, and send them home for the truth?


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

It would seem odd to me for a 5yo to reason that a soft penis might be difficult to insert into a vagina -- but then that's not what the OP said her child's friend had said, anyway. It was said by another poster just kind of guessing about how the hardness might have naturally "come up" in conversation.









But while I might think it odd for a young child to say, "But penises are SOFT" (which of course we have no indication that the child actually said) -- it doesn't seem that odd for a 5yo, especially if she has a younger or close-in-age brother, to have observed that sometimes boys have erections.

And to maybe put 2 and 2 together and surmise that there's a connection between erections and sex. And even to ask her mother what sex feels like.

I don't think a child has to be abused to learn some of these things. It all depends on the child's level of curiosity, and also the child's comfort with asking questions of parents. I feel glad that my own 9yo is so comfortable talking openly with me about these issues.

I had a lot of the same questions, and made a lot of the same observations, when I was my dd's age. But I didn't discuss most of this with my mother, because of her obvious discomfort and the fact that if I got too open with her about my thoughts and feelings, I'd hear her later on the phone asking her friends if this was normal for my age.

So this sounds like a child who has a very comfortable and open relationship with her mother -- and who is actually less likely to be sexually abused, or for it to go unreported, because it sounds like she talks to her mom regularly about everything she is wondering and experiencing.

I'd actually be more worried about the children who aren't discussing their curiosities with their parents, because maybe they won't be as comfortable telling parents, or even have the words to describe it, if they are being abused.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cschick* 
I doubt many parents are telling their kids that babies come from kissing, but some stupid kids are telling other kids that with an air of authority.

LOL, I had started out by being rather vague with my oldest, talking about mommies and daddies doing a special kind of "naked snuggling" to make a baby. But she just kept wondering *specifically* how the sperm got to the egg.

And I'm kind of glad now that she made me explain it more clearly. 'Cause I'd hate for her to be thinking people can get pregnant just by snuggling together.


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## Vermillion (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 

So this sounds like a child who has a very comfortable and open relationship with her mother -- and who is actually less likely to be sexually abused, or for it to go unreported, because it sounds like she talks to her mom regularly about everything she is wondering and experiencing.

I'd actually be more worried about the children who aren't discussing their curiosities with their parents, because maybe they won't be as comfortable telling parents, or even have the words to describe it, if they are being abused.











I'm also in the "wouldn't bother me at all" camp. It may not be the wording I'd think of off the bat, but it's true and no big deal IMO.


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## tinuviel_k (Apr 29, 2004)

I see absolutely nothing wrong with a five year old child knowing the specifics about sex. We started reading the "Where Do I Come From" book with Denali (that book was mine from when I was a kid!) when she was five, and it talks all about sex in a kid-friendly way, even about why penises become hard and such.

Curiosity about sex and babies is very normal at that age. My daughter just turned six, and I've found she has some VERY in-depth questions and curiosities about how babies are made. For instance, we told her that she was born with all he eggs she will ever have, that they are inside her right now. When she proudly proclaimed that "all my eggs are girls!" I told her how it is actually the sperm from the father that decides of the baby will be a boy or a girl. She was fascinated by that, and managed to work it into several conversations. That led to us discussing about what was appropriate talk at the dinner table at a restaurant (while the folks at the table next to us just about died of laughter).


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Honestly, I wouldn't have a problem. But then at 5 DD pretty much knew that part of how babies were made.

Like a PP said, it would bug me more (and did once) if the other girl comes up with some story about a stork or cabbage patch (or in our case angels).


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## darcytrue (Jan 23, 2009)

I think it's fine to tell them the truth too but I do it based on their age. I think 5 is a bit too young to get "that" specific because children that age tend to talk about everything to other children and adults. I'd be afraid they'd take it out of context and make things look weird to other people.







Nothing wrong with keeping it "age appropriate" IMO. They can be told more and more as they get older and more mature. I'm not saying someone has to wait until the child is middle school aged or anything, but 5 is a bit young to be that descriptive. I also just don't see the need for a child that age to know so much information. What does it benefit them in the here and now?


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

If the child is asking, then the benefit comes not necessarily from the knowlege itself, but from the experience of asking their parents a question and getting an honest, straightforward answer about sex. I can't really fathom why people would think this isn't age appropriate information for any child that is asking. I mean, I don't put off answering how we breathe or how taste buds work or why we poop - why would I put off answering why a penis gets hard or how babies are made?


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *darcytrue* 
I think it's fine to tell them the truth too but I do it based on their age. I think 5 is a bit too young to get "that" specific because children that age tend to talk about everything to other children and adults. I'd be afraid they'd take it out of context and make things look weird to other people.







Nothing wrong with keeping it "age appropriate" IMO. They can be told more and more as they get older and more mature. I'm not saying someone has to wait until the child is middle school aged or anything, but 5 is a bit young to be that descriptive. I also just don't see the need for a child that age to know so much information. What does it benefit them in the here and now?

I agree with you.


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

Sounds like something we would tell our 5 y/o if she asked.


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## expecting-joy (Sep 15, 2007)

I guess I don't get the "hide the truth from the children camp" at all.

I wish my five-year-old self had had that five-year-old as a friend. There was no information available in my home. I think at 10 I was still trying to figure out how a penis that faced the feet got into a hole between the legs. Some mention of it getting hard and turning up would have saved me much needless confusion.


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## KristaDJ (May 30, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *expecting-joy* 









I guess I don't get the "hide the truth from the children camp" at all.

I wish my five-year-old self had had that five-year-old as a friend. There was no information available in my home. I think at 10 I was still trying to figure out how a penis that faced the feet got into a hole between the legs. Some mention of it getting hard and turning up would have saved me much needless confusion.











I answer questions honestly as my children ask them I wouldn't be disturbed by that at all. I WAS disturbed, however, when the 9yo girl next door asked me "where do you get babies?" I wanted so much to tell her


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

I'd probably be slightly embarrassed, but wouldn't think the five-year-old or her mother had done anything wrong (or inappropriate, within the context of five-year-olds, who are bundles of inappropriateness!). Confrontation seems rather an odd response... "YOUR daughter knows how babies are made!"?


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ZanZansMommy* 
Your 5 year old daughter is told by your friends 5 year old daughter that babies are made when a hard penis goes into the vagina & it feel good (the child doesn't know this. mom just told her it feels good). Friends 5 year old just brings it up out of the blue (we were hiking through the woods) & has been told by mom not to discuss this with anyone.

This did not happen to my daughter because she was not within ear shot of this but it could have easily been my child. When my friend was confronted with this information, she became defensive & said, "I don't know why people feel the need to keep this from their kids. I just won't lie." What she actually means is she _selectively_ lies.

Thoughts please.

Doesn't sound all that different from (part of) what my kids know about sex and reproduction. I've never explained sex as an isolated event used only to make babies -- my kids know it's something people do because it feels good, and that there are things you can do to prevent babies from being made while doing it (and prevent a fetus from developing into a baby, if that fails).

I would not be upset if my child heard the same thing from another kid, and while I wouldn't be defensive if another parent didn't want her kid to hear it . . . I don't respect parents who try to hide this stuff from their children. If my kid isn't giving false information, I'm not going to go out of my way to stop him or her from saying anything.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smokering* 
...within the context of five-year-olds, who are bundles of inappropriateness!...










Very well said!


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thisbirdwillfly* 
How in the *world* would a 5 year old girl know that a penis being soft is problem when it comes to how it enters the woman?

I think the information was too graphic for the age. Most five year old girls who know that the penis is not always soft have been sexually abused.

Or they have little (or big) brothers that aren't modest. Even young boys' penises are sometimes hard, sometimes soft, etc.

I dunno. My son cracked me up the other day (a couple days after we'd talked about sex) saying, "A big penis wouldn't fit. It must be the small penises that go into vaginas." I did explain that the vagina is very stretchy . . . but part of me thinks he was trying to make himself feel better. He's very curious lately about when he is going to grow bigger, have body hair, etc. I was







though.


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

I wouldn't think there was anything inappropriate in what she said, and I wouldn't be surprised or worried that she repeated it somewhat inappropriately.

FWIW, I remember at about age 6 being really curious about how a mushy penis could get inside a vagina - it seemed clear to me that it shouldn't work from the few I had seen (dad, my cousin, the kid up the street who was always whipping it out). I was too shy to ask my mom though I did come to the conclusion that it must somehow get stiffer.


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## aprons_and_acorns (Sep 28, 2004)

I don't see anything wrong with what the 5-year-old in the OP said. My 5-year-old knows all of that.

When I was in kindy we had that book "Where Did I Come From?" and it tells all about sex including erections, so I'm sure I knew about hard penises at that age. It even describes an orgasm by comparing it to a big shivery sneeze. So, that would be the "feels good" part.


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## Belia (Dec 22, 2007)

I don't see a problem at all.

I also don't see what the big deal is about the "hard" and "feels good" part. How is that information harmful for a 5 yo to have???


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

I mean it's a five year old, that's probably only a small part of the whole conversation.

I was read "Where did I come from?" when I was like 4 or 5. My DD who is 3 is finding out this information currently because I am having a baby in around 10 days and she keeps saying she's pregnant too. I told her that babies come out of mommy's vaginas and daddies help put them there. We also have had the penis=boy, vagina=girl discussion often, because she's fascinated by the differences in gender. Our neighbors dog is a boy, he comes over to our house, sometimes he gets a bit "excited"(even if he's fixed). She saw his penis the other day and asked what it was, I told her.

I guess for me it's easier to just give the information, IDK if I'd go into the schematics of things, but YK I haven't had to quite cross that bridge-just yet.


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## vegemamato (Jul 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprons_and_acorns* 
I don't see anything wrong with what the 5-year-old in the OP said. My 5-year-old knows all of that.

When I was in kindy we had that book "Where Did I Come From?" and it tells all about sex including erections, so I'm sure I knew about hard penises at that age. *It even describes an orgasm by comparing it to a big shivery sneeze.* So, that would be the "feels good" part.











I know it shouldn't be, but...that's HILARIOUS!


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## sfreed4575 (Jun 3, 2007)

I think it's better to tell the truth, but I think I would have been a bit shocked if I had been there. I think "hard penis" and "feels good" is a too graphic and probly would not be in my vocabulary with a 5 year old... However, she has the right to tell her kid whatever she wants....I think your issue is more, how to prepare your 5 year old to hear things that you aren't ready to tell her or that you haven't talked about with her yet... maybe you can sit down with her and have a talk about "when you hear about something new" or whatever you feel comfortable telling her to make sure the lines of communication are open so that if she does hear something like that, that she comes to you first.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beckyand3littlemonsters* 
i've also told chloe that having a baby hurts a lot.

Am I the only one who thinks this is sad?







It doesn't always hurt a lot, and twenty years is a long time to worry about going through "a lot" of hurt to have a baby...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vegemamato* 
and I also agree with the pp that mom should get an apology for the 'confrontation' since, IMO, she did nothing wrong.

I'll be the twenty-sixth person to second this. 5 year old child had an honest question and got an honest answer. Pretty exciting information - truthful, and not in any way damaging IMO. I don't get why anyone would get worked up. A bit red in the face if overheard in certain public places - but not wrong or bad.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten* 
Am I the only one who thinks this is sad?







It doesn't always hurt a lot, and twenty years is a long time to worry about going through "a lot" of hurt to have a baby...

True. But, there's no guarantee that she'll worry about it. Growing up, I heard lots about how much it hurt to have a baby (not from my mom, I'll admit). I never worried about it. Actually, when I got pregnant with my first, I really looked forward to the process of birth.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cschick* 
And seriously, I fall on the side of "if you find that language inappropriate and/or disturbing" you haven't been around a lot of five year olds. Maybe it's because my neighborhood is currently filled with kids from 4-6 years of age . . . they talk about butts, they talk about penises, they have really weird imaginations when it comes various types of bodily functions. They're obsessed with bodily stuff. Really, their conversation is constantly on the somewhat gross and inappropriate side of things.

This is very true and I wish someone had warned me about this a year ago. It gets ridiculous.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

I think my first reaction would be "oh my" and then when I broke it down in my head I would think, "eh, makes sense".

Confronting the mother is a very odd response, IMO. She did nothing wrong. She even tried to tell her dd not to talk about it.

If it were me though, I would check in with the mom to make sure it was true that she got the info from her mom. Because part of me would want to make sure that she learned about hard penises in an appropriate context. Just looking out, yk?

And then I would giggle at the 5yo sex conversation.


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## Cavy (Aug 21, 2009)

It would be a little too explicit for my taste, but it wouldn't worry me (I don't think). My DC who know the facts of life are horrified, they think that sounds incredibly revolting. I don't like saying too much about "It feels good" because when you say that kids start wondering whether they might like it too (as in here and now).

Also, I have emphasised that
*Kids mustn't do it
*You don't do it with relatives.

DC will figure out, eventually, on their own that "It feels good".
I was told too young too much about sex and it led to me experimenting when I was very young (with other very young friends). No harm done, really, but I felt ashamed about it for years, and that shame was quite harmful. Hence why I am quite eager to put DC off the idea for now!! The more revolting they think sex is, the better.

Now DS is 9yo I have started to explain to him the sad fact that some adults are very messed up in the head and would like to have sex with children







. I added that if this happens it is NEVER the child's fault, always the adult's.


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## ZanZansMommy (Nov 8, 2003)

OP here. Wow things move quickly on this board. I didn't read all the responses but,

To clarify a few things: I was not the one who confronted said friend(D). It was the other mother(J) whose DD was the receipient of the information. She confided in me b/c I was also on the hike but much further ahead of this group. She was quite upset about it b/c her DD has not asked about this yet, she didn't like the way it was presented & she wanted to go over this with her DD. All things I can understand. She was also upset that other friend(D) seems to have 2 sets of standards for what her kids hear & what others can hear.

After spending some thinking about it what upset me goes deeper than the conversation between the 2 kids. It essentially boils down to my sentence of this mother's selective lying. And unfortunately I can't explain any more of that.

My DD knows where babies come from but she knows it in reference to her own body: ovaries, hormones, menses, ovualtion. etc. She didn't ask for more information & she was happy with the information given. As a physician, I felt it was the best information for her at the time that she asked. When she asks for more & I feel she's ready to hear more, I'll provide her with that. I certainly do not & would never consider this lying by any means.


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## ZanZansMommy (Nov 8, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Having read the rest of the thread...the "hard" part doesn't even begin to faze me. Honestly, the inclusion of that word strongly suggests to me that this child had a Q&A session with her mom (similar to the one described by cschick in post 14). I could see the idea of the penis getting hard being a natural response to a child's question, but I've never known a mom who just randomly told her kids that a man puts his "hard" penis in a woman's vagina, yk?

Exactly! Knowing my friend the way I do, this is more than likely exactly how she explained "hard" to her DD.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
So, she's supposed to not tell her daughter things, because someone else may not want to hear it from her daughter? I'm not going to decide what my kids can know based on what other people want _their_ kids to know. I tell my kids what _I_ want them to know


And here in lies the problem. Said mom(D) has asked other moms to lie about an incident, so that her children do not find out about it. An incident that she is lying about to her children & she now wants us to cover for her by not discussing it whith our children & making sure they don't bring it up to hers.

Other mom (J) is livid over this. (D) cannot understand why (J) was upset about the sex talk, but she(D) also has no idea why others(J, myself & 2 mamas) would be put off to lie to our children to protect hers.

I cannot go into details about the incident.


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ZanZansMommy* 
And here in lies the problem. Said mom(D) has asked other moms to lie about an incident, so that her children do not find out about it. An incident that she is lying about to her children & she now wants us to cover for her by not discussing it whith our children & making sure they don't bring it up to hers.

Well, I'd make it abundantly clear to her that I would *not* be lying to my kids. I could certainly ask them not to bring it up (even if that meant saying, "D is a nutjob that doesn't want to be honest with her kids, so try not to mention this around them"), but I wouldn't lie or hide something from my own kids to protect someone else's. So far, my kids have been good about not divulging information that I asked them not to share with specific people -- including stuff about a friend's pregnancy and abortion).


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ZanZansMommy* 
And here in lies the problem. Said mom(D) has asked other moms to lie about an incident, so that her children do not find out about it. An incident that she is lying about to her children & she now wants us to cover for her by not discussing it whith our children & making sure they don't bring it up to hers.

Other mom (J) is livid over this. (D) cannot understand why (J) was upset about the sex talk, but she(D) also has no idea why others(J, myself & 2 mamas) would be put off to lie to our children to protect hers.

I cannot go into details about the incident.

Say "no"









I can't imagine agreeing to that request.

And I'm guessing this is a santa thing







:

eta....my dd is another that wanted to know "how exactly does the sperm get to the egg???" at 4. I told her the truth. I was pg at the time, and suspect that mommy's pregnancy is often the catalyst for this kind of questioning.


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ZanZansMommy* 
Exactly! Knowing my friend the way I do, this is more than likely exactly how she explained "hard" to her DD.

And here in lies the problem. Said mom(D) has asked other moms to lie about an incident, so that her children do not find out about it. An incident that she is lying about to her children & she now wants us to cover for her by not discussing it whith our children & making sure they don't bring it up to hers.

Other mom (J) is livid over this. (D) cannot understand why (J) was upset about the sex talk, but she(D) also has no idea why others(J, myself & 2 mamas) would be put off to lie to our children to protect hers.

I cannot go into details about the incident.

Is the thing she's asked you to lie about in any way related to sexuality or sexual education? If not, I can't see it having any bearing on this situation. You can believe in selective lying about one topic, and not about another. And if it's not, trying to tie the two situations together seems to be something of a non sequitur.

Although, unless the situation was extreme, I wouldn't lie to my child at the request of another parent.


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cschick* 
Is the thing she's asked you to lie about in any way related to sexuality or sexual education? If not, I can't see it having any bearing on this situation. You can believe in selective lying about one topic, and not about another. And if it's not, trying to tie the two situations together seems to be something of a non sequitur.

Although, unless the situation was extreme, I wouldn't lie to my child at the request of another parent.









I think I agree, although I'm still pretty confused about what this other mom's supposed lie is. Anyway, yeah, I guess by that standard I'm a "selective liar" too: I tell my child all about the insects, plants, sex ed and planets she asks about, but I point-blank lie to her that Santa and the Tooth Fairy exist.


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## JennTheMomma (Jun 19, 2008)

It wouldn't bother me.


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Seasons* 







I think I agree, although I'm still pretty confused about what this other mom's supposed lie is. Anyway, yeah, I guess by that standard I'm a "selective liar" too: I tell my child all about the insects, plants, sex ed and planets she asks about, but I point-blank lie to her that Santa and the Tooth Fairy exist.









Right. I'm not going to lie to the kid if he's got honest questions about sex--I don't believe in lying about that topic. And I don't really care if he goes about spreading "the truth" to other kids.

I do "lie" about Santa Claus, but if another kid told him that Santa Claus didn't exist, I wouldn't flip my top. Santa Claus is both a story and a state of mind, eventually we all get to the point where we leave the original child-fantasy state of mind.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
Say "no"









I can't imagine agreeing to that request.

And I'm guessing this is a santa thing







:


Oh, I can imagine agreeing to a request like that, if it concerned something like . . . say the woman's husband had been caught fooling around with another woman, or visiting a prostitute. I could see lying to my kids about an incident like that to avoid the possibility of them telling the guy's kids about it (and to avoid giving them information I'd rather they didn't have about an adult they know.)

But I'm guessing it's probably not something that serious, or the other parents would be more understanding about the request to lie. If it was something Santa-related or similar, no way would I lie to my kids to help someone else lie to theirs.


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## peachsara (Jun 10, 2009)

I'm definately part of the "wouldn't bother me" crowd. As far as the other mother asking other parents to lie for her, would definately depend on what the situation was.

Ex: the parents are seperated and don't want the children to know about it yet. The mother doesn't want her children to hear about it from other kids. I wouldn't have a problem with that.

B/c I came from a household where sex and sexual anatomy were never, ever talked about, I really want to be informative and truthful with my children. And knowing that children do not filter the information that they share with others, I am fully prepared to be confronted by other parents. It will probably happen, but I have to do what feels right for my children.

And, I totally get a giggle when my DS says to my mother "Look Grammy, this is my scrotum! Do you want to see [DD]'s vulva?"


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
But I'm guessing it's probably not something that serious, or the other parents would be more understanding about the request to lie. If it was something Santa-related or similar, no way would I lie to my kids to help someone else lie to theirs.

I've actually been thinking on it (trying to figure out what exactly the parent of one five-year-old wouldn't want that child hearing about, and would be worried that another five-year-old might be interested in conveying) and I've come up with topics of fantasy (Santa, etc), God and death.

Death being the weird one. I can't believe how many people I know, up to about their teenaged years, were told that their family pets "went away" somewhere else when the pet died. When our dog got sick/needed to be put to sleep last winter, we told the kid in simple terms that he'd gotten very sick, and sometimes people and animals who get very sick die. But, he'd also been aware for months that our dog was sick and in a lot of pain (our dog developed an autoimmune disease and unfortunately the meds we used to battle it destroyed his kidneys), so I felt it was a natural progression.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

With regards to Santa and the Tooth Fairy....

I think there is a difference between pretending and lying.

We pretended about Santa when the kids were little. When DS1 point blank asked me if Santa was really real (at age 5), I asked him what he thought. He said he thought it was make-believe and didn't make sense (like, how does Santa get into houses that don't have fireplaces?) So then we talked about pretending, fantasy, and symbolism.

If I had insisted, at that point, that Santa was a real person who visits your house on Xmas Eve, I'd consider myself to be a liar.

When kids ask honest questions, they deserve honest answers. I did have one friend at the time who was very concerned that my kid would completely blow Xmas for her kids. It didn't happen. He never said a word to his friends or his little brother, who figured things out when he was about 7.

I suppose one could say that a kid who had been told bogus stories about storks, cabbage patches, and angels would eventually question and find out the truth as well. I think the difference is that making up stories about holiday characters and making up stories about conception/birth have very different intents. In the first case, it's to create magic for childhood. In the second case, it's to keep people ignorant or because of a skewed sense of propriety.


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## HappilyEvrAfter (Apr 1, 2009)

Oy. That's mild compared to what I hear from kids around our neighborhood. Not that I'm condoning or tivializing!!

I'm one of the few parents (around here, I mean) that stay outside with my kid after dinner. I don't hover, but I make a point to show that I want to be involved with him and his friends. I know them all pretty well.
Gosh, all the different views these kids have been given. Sometimes they ask me questions and I have to let them know that their parents will discuss it with them when they feel it's time.

I kind of welcome the interaction and the things they tell each other. I would never censor his interation by asking another parent to lie...even about Santa or the Easter Bunny.
...LoL. And I'd be silly to think that his curiosity or his own experience with something would wait until *I* was ready to talk about it with him.

I welcome his questioning and wanting to know why one family believes one thing and we believe another.

Graphic for a 5 yo? I don't think so, but I'm surmising in terms of my own kiddo...and the fact that we weren't privy to the converstation between this child an mother.
Geex, I can't tell you how many times I've had to correct my own kid cause he took one of our conversations out of context.
















Guess, all that means I'm part of the "wouldn't have phased me a bit" crowd.









Now, we do practice the "that's not part of our business" or "that's not our concern" theory. I don't ask him to lie or keep secrets, it's just not "somthing we concern ourselves with"
This came up when my DS saw a friend buying cigaretts and the guy wasn't supposed to be smoking.
My son said, "OOOOHH! HE'S BUYING CIGARETTS!"
It's a fine line, but we're learning which business to mind and which business belongs to someone else. I don't ask him to keep it a secret, but it's not our concern to enforce that rule upon this other person.
If my son blurts it out then I guess this guy shoudln't have been buying something in a public place! LOL.

Anyway....


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## nomnom (Sep 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cschick* 
*shrug* What I see here was that the mom probably gave her some decent information, which went into her five-year-old brain and came back out phrased in a slightly more five-year-old-ish way.

I could see a five-year-old questioning to the extent of this knowledge:

"Mommy, how are babies made?"

"The daddy puts his penis into the mommy . . . "

"Where?"

"Her vagina . . . "

"But penises are soft!" (A five-year-old may have seen her brother or father naked at some point)

"Penises get hard sometimes."

"Why would you do THAT?"

"Because it feels good."

Translation to five-year-old language: A daddy puts his hard penis into mommy because it feels good.

exactly! when i have kids i will not spare details, kids deserve to know the truth!


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## jlobe (May 1, 2009)

With kids all information is vulnerable to interpretation or disclosure...

We gave DS (5) the info wrt intercourse and bodies prior to school partly because I wanted to make sure the info came from us and not other children.

We don't believe in Santa or Tooth Fairy and I tell my children that some kids do and we should respect their beliefs. However, accidents happen and I won't feel badly if children have a difference of opinion about these things. It's kind of a part of life....


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ZanZansMommy* 
Your 5 year old daughter is told by your friends 5 year old daughter that babies are made when a hard penis goes into the vagina & it feel good (the child doesn't know this. mom just told her it feels good). Friends 5 year old just brings it up out of the blue (we were hiking through the woods) & has been told by mom not to discuss this with anyone.

This did not happen to my daughter because she was not within ear shot of this but it could have easily been my child. When my friend was confronted with this information, she became defensive & said, "I don't know why people feel the need to keep this from their kids. I just won't lie." What she actually means is she _selectively_ lies.

Thoughts please.

Anyone who "confronted" me about how, what and when I teach my kids about any subject would be leaving with a considerable flea in her ear. I wouldn't be defensive at all, but I would make sure the "confronter" knew how offensive her behaviour was.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jlobe* 
We don't believe in Santa or Tooth Fairy and I tell my children that some kids do and we should respect their beliefs. However, accidents happen and I won't feel badly if children have a difference of opinion about these things. It's kind of a part of life....

We do Santa and the Tooth Fairy - but I also wouldn't be upset if someone else's child told my kids the truth before I did. That's how ds1 found out, actually - a friend told him that he (the friend) saw his mom put money under his pillow. DS1 asked me if that was true. I said "yes", and we talked about it. If someone tells dd1 now, that's cool. Eventually, for one reason or another, she'll ask me - and then she'll know. If that reason is a friend whose parents don't do Santa, that's fine with me, yk?


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## Evergreen (Nov 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mandib50* 
it wouldn't bother me.
i don't get the part about your friend "selectively" lying though - how is she selectively lying?

Maybe because it doesn't always feel good? It doesn't to me anyway.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pepper44* 
My DD just turned three and she is very curious and matter of fact about body related issues. She wanted to know all about birth, and she tells people that a baby is very tiny in the mom's belly then grows bigger and bigger and one day gets so big that it crawls out a special hallway next to the pee-pee hole. Then it gets milk from the mom's boobies. This horrified my dad when she explained it to him.









Wait... your dad didn't know?! Your mom has some explaining to do.









I don't understand the selective lying bit so I can't comment on it. I would be fine with my daughter hearing that about sex from a friend. Hopefully I'll get to her first, but it may not happen cause I don't want to push this information.


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pepper44*
My DD just turned three and she is very curious and matter of fact about body related issues. She wanted to know all about birth, and she tells people that a baby is very tiny in the mom's belly then grows bigger and bigger and one day gets so big that it crawls out a special hallway next to the pee-pee hole. Then it gets milk from the mom's boobies. This horrified my dad when she explained it to him.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *rightkindofme* 
Wait... your dad didn't know?! Your mom has some explaining to do.



















You just made my day.


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## 2cutiekitties (Dec 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thisbirdwillfly* 
I think the information was too graphic for the age. Most five year old girls who know that the penis is not always soft have been sexually abused. If a five year old shared with me that she knew that detail of sex, I'd be very concerned.

Which is exactly what I would say to my friend. I'd also tell her I find it difficult to believe that she didn't already know that five year olds tell everyone, everything and that some parents would find that language either inappropriate and/or disturbing.

I agree, way too graphic for 5.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2cutiekitties* 
I agree, way too graphic for 5.

What makes it too graphic? Are you concerned that it will be emotionally scarring?


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ZanZansMommy* 

After spending some thinking about it what upset me goes deeper than the conversation between the 2 kids. It essentially boils down to my sentence of this mother's selective lying. And unfortunately I can't explain any more of that.

Gah!







I keep coming back to this thread to get the scoop, and you're leaving me hanging!?!?

Spill woman, spill!


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2cutiekitties* 
I agree, way too graphic for 5.

Huh. Well before 5, my daughter wanted to know both the name of "the part that feels good" on herself, and (2) "how butterflies drink the nectar." I provided both names, "clitoris" and "proboscis." It wouldn't have occurred to me to think that "proboscis" was too graphic, and certainly I never thought to withhold from her the names of her _own_ body parts.

Going back to the OP, the 5yo in question said that "babies are made when a hard penis goes into the vagina & it feel good." Assuming an adult told the 5yo this (and that she didn't figure it out, read it, or hear it from another child), what is too graphic is presumably (1) the fact that penises get hard, and/or (2) that sex can feel good. I'd far, far rather be discussing these facts with my child (as a child, when she might even listen to my value spin on them), than to hide these facts from her and have a predator or boyfriend introduce the concepts.


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## pjs (Mar 30, 2005)

For me personally, I would be upset. I am fine with the other girl knowing what she knows and in whatever terms she knows it in. What I do take exception to is that she is sharing her version with my child. As a parent, this is one of those topics that I feel it is important to highlight/stress how it is private and not something we go around talking about with anyone (at least in my own experience- I'm not sitting around talking about sex with my parents or my next door neighbor), just as our vaginas or penises are private. If a five year old wanted to show my kid her vagina because she and her mom had talked about it, I'd be upset because just as act itself is private, so is the actual body part. I have no problem with my kids or the other lady's knowing the facts, but even at five there is an understanding that certain things are private/special/whathave you that should be only discussed/shared with mom and dad.


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## vegemamato (Jul 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pjs* 
For me personally, I would be upset. I am fine with the other girl knowing what she knows and in whatever terms she knows it in. What I do take exception to is that she is sharing her version with my child. As a parent, this is one of those topics that I feel it is important to highlight/stress how it is private and not something we go around talking about with anyone (at least in my own experience- *I'm not sitting around talking about sex with my parents or my next door neighbor*), just as our vaginas or penises are private. If a five year old wanted to show my kid her vagina because she and her mom had talked about it, I'd be upset because just as act itself is private, so is the actual body part. I have no problem with my kids or the other lady's knowing the facts, but even at five there is an understanding that certain things are private/special/whathave you that should be only discussed/shared with mom and dad.

hmm.. I talk about sex with my mom quite often (mostly bc these days), with my dad on occasion (he's the one who had the 'talk' with me- 2 yrs _after_ I lost my virginity







), my older brother when it's been relevent and most of my mama-neighbors daily









I guess we won't be counting _me_ in the modest camp, eh?

(FWIW, I think we _should_ be sharing these details, and that women shouldn't feel embarrassed or ashamed.. from what I hear, men talk about their 'private parts' frequently! what's the difference?)


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## mandib50 (Oct 26, 2004)

sounds like a whole lot of drama between the moms









i don't know how you would prevent a 5 year old from sharing information they learn about sex. i think it is a burden to ask a child to keep that information private - it seems it would be beyond their developmental capabilities. then again i'm not a child psychologist







but i still don't think it's fair to ask kids that age to keep information to themselves.


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## pjs (Mar 30, 2005)

We ask 5 yos to keep their hands to themselves, to keep their private parts private, to respect others' bodies, why is this so different?

As far as not being modest, for our family, the act of making love is a very sacred and spiritual act and between the couple and God. While I intend to convey the mechanics in a matter of fact way, it will be coupled with lengthy conversations regarding the emotional/sacredness aspect of the act as well. Since our family regards it as such an intimate and private thing, out of respect for DH and for our marriage, we don't discuss the details with others, even in generalities. We believe sex is an adult topic, just as things like the death penalty or war, and while I'm not trying to hide the truth from my kids, there are some details that I personally don't feel are age appropriate and I feel are my responsibility to discuss with my kids and impart in them that this is something we can always discuss as a mom and child, but not something we should be sharing with those outside of our family.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pjs* 
We ask 5 yos to keep their hands to themselves, to keep their private parts private, to respect others' bodies, why is this so different?

As far as not being modest, for our family, the act of making love is a very sacred and spiritual act and between the couple and God. While I intend to convey the mechanics in a matter of fact way, it will be coupled with lengthy conversations regarding the emotional/sacredness aspect of the act as well. Since our family regards it as such an intimate and private thing, out of respect for DH and for our marriage, we don't discuss the details with others, even in generalities. We believe sex is an adult topic, just as things like the death penalty or war, and while I'm not trying to hide the truth from my kids, there are some details that I personally don't feel are age appropriate and I feel are my responsibility to discuss with my kids and impart in them that this is something we can always discuss as a mom and child, but not something we should be sharing with those outside of our family.

I understand where you are coming from, but as the mother of a teen and a pre-teen, my experience is that all children talk about these things between themselves. Unless you completely isolate your kids from other kids, they will hear things that you won't like or agree with. You may find that your kids are interested in the mechanics long before they are intellectually ready to understand your views on the emotional/sacredness aspect of the act.

I'd rather my child hear a truthful version of the mechanics, even if from another 5 year old, than some of the rubbish I heard as a child from other children.


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pjs* 
We ask 5 yos to keep their hands to themselves, to keep their private parts private, to respect others' bodies, why is this so different?

I expect a 5yo child to talk about sex and body parts because (1) IME, 5yo children don't consistently keep their hands to themselves, or consistently follow any other social rule, either, no matter how much we ask; (2) IME, 5yo children are fascinated with their bodies, _especially_ those body parts and emissions deemed private - it's BECAUSE they are private that they find discussion of them so endlessly amusing and important (to them); and (3) IMO, 5yo children do not have the cognitive power to distinguish between the concepts "no, don't tell other people about your body as small talk" and "yes, do tell other people about your body when it hurts, when you are confused, and when others express an unnatural interest in you." Sheesh, sometimes the courts can't even decide whether a 6yo acting out sexually to a 5yo is "sexual abuse"; the 5yo certainly can't. I'd FAR rather that my child err on the side of talking about her body, than self-silencing her possible knowledge of abuse (or even a UTI).


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

While I think it's a good idea to talk to our kids about social protocol, i.e. what's private and not generally talked about in public -- it's also not realistic to expect a young child to always remember these distinctions.

As I've already said, when my oldest at 4 wanted to know about reproduction in detail, I answered her questions and I also explained that some of her friends probably didn't know all this yet and their mothers would want to be the ones to answer their questions, and would probably prefer not to have her telling them these things.

But at the same time, I wouldn't have been upset if she'd forgotten and shared some of this with her friends. On one occasion, she told me she and her friend were playing with their little toy horses, and her friend wanted the horses to have a baby, and without thinking dd put the horses' bodies together so they could "do sex" and the female could get pregnant --

Then her friend asked her, "What's SEX?" -- and dd told her she needed to ask her mother. Dd was worried that she'd said too much, and I said don't worry about it, it's not that big of a deal.

I never even saw any need to mention it to the other mom.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
While I think it's a good idea to talk to our kids about social protocol, i.e. what's private and not generally talked about in public -- it's also not realistic to expect a young child to always remember these distinctions.

This.

And....I can understand not wanting your own child to speak of certain things, and not wanting other children to speak of certain things to your child. I do think that getting "upset" about it is over the top.

No matter how much you (general you) want to think that you are going to be the center of your child's universe, the fact remains that it's a huge world out there, full of billions of people. Your kids are going to learn about things from other people. Getting "upset" about it will just break down communication....kids generally don't want to tell their parents things that will upset them.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
I can see if you aren't ready to talk to your daughter about this, but what would you expect the other mom to do?

"Hey dd's friend's mom, head's up that my 5 year old knows about sex. I've told her to not share with her friends, but you know how kids are. Keep an ear out and just tell her that she should only talk to it with me or dh if she does start telling your dd something more than you want her to know right now."


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
"Hey dd's friend's mom, head's up that my 5 year old knows about sex. I've told her to not share with her friends, but you know how kids are. Keep an ear out and just tell her that she should only talk to it with me or dh if she does start telling your dd something more than you want her to know right now."











In my family's case, I'd have had to print that on a flyer and distribute it to her entire daycare center - 200 kids. And then her school - she attends a 1000-kid K-8, so lots of flyers there. Also every kid she met at the playground. And at every birthday party. And the YMCA at which we attend the crowded family night. Oops, and the other kids taking her group swimming lesson. And all the neighbor kids. And the kids at the campgrounds where we vacationed (total 16 nights last summer). And...

Better practice is for all parents to realize that kids will be kids, AND that all kids aren't raised identically.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

As for the original question, my reaction would be to think "OMG!"

Then ask the little girl "where did you learn about that?"

Then chill out when she told me her mommy told her. And I'd tell my dd to come to me if she had any questions.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Seasons* 









In my family's case, I'd have had to print that on a flyer and distribute it to her entire daycare center - 200 kids. And then her school - she attends a 1000-kid K-8, so lots of flyers there. Also every kid she met at the playground. And at every birthday party. And the YMCA at which we attend the crowded family night. Oops, and the other kids taking her group swimming lesson. And all the neighbor kids. And the kids at the campgrounds where we vacationed (total 16 nights last summer). And...

Better practice is for all parents to realize that kids will be kids, AND that all kids aren't raised identically.









: I was thinking more in terms of a kid who goes on a few playdates here and there. Comes of having a 1 year old.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xy* 
Getting "upset" about it will just break down communication....kids generally don't want to tell their parents things that will upset them.


This is such a great point!


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
"Hey dd's friend's mom, head's up that my 5 year old knows about sex. I've told her to not share with her friends, but you know how kids are. Keep an ear out and just tell her that she should only talk to it with me or dh if she does start telling your dd something more than you want her to know right now."

Most five year olds are in some sort of school environment, at least part-time. If you do schooling outside the house, they're on the playground with the other elementary school kids; they're riding the bus.


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pjs* 
We believe sex is an adult topic, just as things like the death penalty or war, and while I'm not trying to hide the truth from my kids, there are some details that I personally don't feel are age appropriate and I feel are my responsibility to discuss with my kids and impart in them that this is something we can always discuss as a mom and child, but not something we should be sharing with those outside of our family.

Then all you can do is teach your child to walk away should such discussions arise with other children.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

I have to say, my DD knows the mechanics of sex and reproduction and it's never, ever occurred to me to tell her not to talk to anyone about it.







As everyone else has said, it seems like a complex distinction for a 5yo and I'm much more focused on keeping her safe and healthy by teaching her openness around the topic than on making a big deal about how she should hide her knowledge from her peers. Judging by our abject failure to get her to understand that sharing her nonbelief in God with random people (and religious relatives...oy!) is not really appropriate, it wouldn't work anyway.


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## MtBikeLover (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tbone_kneegrabber* 
this folks, is why it is important to tell kids about sex and drugs and other things before their friends do! Because they are going to hear about it somewhere.

This is SOOOO true. DS asked me where babies come from when he was 5.5yo. I tried not giving all the details but he has a very scientific mind and kept asking. I did tell him the whole thing. When I told my H (now ex) that I had told DS about it, he was livid with me.

Then, 2 weeks later, DS says he needs to ask me something in private so we go into his room and talked. He said someone on his bus (all kindergarteners) said that sex is when the daddy rubs his penis on the mommy's butt.

So luckily, he felt comfortable coming to me and talking to me about it which I can't imagine would have happened had I not answered him honestly. And he knew that what he was told was wrong because we had just talked about it.

To answer the OP, I would not have been angry in the least. I would have actually been thrilled to find another parent that believes in being this open and honest with their kids.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MtBikeLover* 
To answer the OP, I would not have been angry in the least. I would have actually been thrilled to find another parent that believes in being this open and honest with their kids.

Me, too.

But knowing that this mom has asked other moms to lie to their children to shield her own child from some other knowledge, it sounds like this is more of a tit-for-tat thing, and is not even really about the issue of sex.

The other moms seem to be mad that this mom feels free to be as honest as she likes with her own child -- but is nevertheless expecting them to guard their communications with their own children ... as if her view about what's acceptable for HER child to hear is the only factor worthy of consideration.

While I don't think there's anything the least bit wrong with what she told her child, I would find her seeming double-standard rather annoying.


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