# Help me convice DH that buying DS a toy kitchen is not "gay"



## Jug (Jan 3, 2008)

Just post, i'm making him read the thread.

My DS love the toy kitchen set a friend has for her 2 year old son and 4year old girl, and i've been wanting go get him one soon before March, so i told DH if next week we can go and look for a toy kitchen and he said, no, becuase toy kitchen is for girls and buying him one wil be "gay".
BTW, DS is 2.


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## notwonamesalike (Nov 13, 2007)

Go toy kitchens for little boys! My nephew loves his! My brother-in-law played with his cousins growing up and graduated with honors from a top culinary school. He's now a sous chef at a major resort in Montana. He has a girlfriend, and even if he had a boyfriend we would love him, and be proud of his culinary achievements!


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## 63977 (Sep 14, 2006)

Homosexuality isn't an issue here, in my opinion, whether or not you support it. I can see a dad being concerned about a little boy wearing a pink tutu or something (yes, even though some moms on this site would be okay with that), but a kitchen? Perhaps if my husband would have had a toy kitchen as a child, he could make something besides a pbj! If it makes him more comfortable, get a wooden kitchen with blue dish towels, a grill, a manly chef's hat, etc. Aren't more chefs men than women?


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

I.. I don't know what to say. It's not like you're bedazzling a tutu for him. It's a kitchen for crying out loud.


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## Vancouver Mommy (Aug 15, 2007)

I guess he things the big kitchen is just for women then?


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## crazydiamond (May 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vancouver Mommy* 
I guess he things the big kitchen is just for women then?

No kidding!

Some of the best chefs in the world are men. Gordon Ramsay? Yum! Definitely not gay.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

So you are gay if you cook? Never know that


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## Einley (Jul 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crazydiamond* 

Some of the best chefs in the world are men. Gordon Ramsay? Yum! Definitely not gay.

Exactly! Big fan of Jamie Oliver here and he is certainly not gay. Emeril, Charlie Trotter, Wolfgang Puck, Todd English, Rocco DiSpirito (YUM!) etc..
I dated a chef in college- definitely not gay.

We have a play kitchen and it has been the one toy that all three of my children have enjoyed (two girls and one boy).

I find it fascinating that a toy can be gay or make a kid gay (a bedazzled tutu couldn't do it either I imagine).

If you plan on having more kids, and you have a girl, is your husband going to cordon off the section of girl's toys and not let your son play with them?


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## fek&fuzz (Jun 19, 2005)

What if reading a website called "Mothering" makes him gay?


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

your dh is buying into massive gender and sexual orientation stereotypes. It is hard to even know where to start.

I am very proud that my 4 year old son knows the recipe for pancakes, knows how to make shepard's pie, and loves to eat new foods that my dh makes for us. He is "chef Anthony" in the kitchen and of all his preschool classmates, he was the ONLY one who could name all the vegetables the teacher showed.

Cooking is one of the finer arts in life - one I am thankful my children are showing an interest in early on.

Oh, and a piece of plastic is not going to influence the sexual orientation of my children.

I am not even sure where to start with the rampant homophobia in the entire premise.


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## jeliphish (Jul 18, 2007)

: I dislike things being labled "gay".


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Oh come on. That's just silly. You make him prove to you that the toys one plays with at age two have an impact on sexual identity, okay? Can playing with cars make a kid straight? Is being gay BAD or something? I mean really. Make him gay--get a grip.

If your husband wants the child to do daddyish rather than mommyish pretend play, he can buy him a workbench. The main thing is that two year olds like to open and close doors and hide things in the cabinet. (Am I right? Isn't that what he likes in the friends' kitchen set? You put the play food in the little microwave or fridge and shut the door, hooray! Again and again.) You can accomplish the same thing if you have a kitchen drawer that you can free up and fill with plastic vessels. he'll come empty it out and fill it up again!

Gosh, I love two year olds. It's fun that my kid is five now but I love hanging out with our friends' two year old sometimes. So much language acquisition. Tell your husband to stop worrying and start enjoying.


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## gsd1amommy (Apr 6, 2007)

Yeah, Emeril LaGasse, Wolfgang Puck, and Bobby Flay are counting their gay money all the way to the gay bank. Big 'mo's. As an aside, my son's big gay kitchen was purple and green but now that he's seven, he's advanced to the real kitchen and is using some really ungay stuff in there. I have seen some very boyish kitchens-browns and blues and reds if that will make him feel better.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Cooking is not specific to one gender, and cooking does not have anything to do with sexual orientation/identity. Your Dh is stuck in a very narrow mindset, and it's one that is particularly destructive to children, IMO.

Has he (Dh) ever used a stove? Scrambled an egg? Boiled macaroni? Ask him if he's gay.









And even if it could "make him gay", which it cannot... why would that be bad?


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## Jug (Jan 3, 2008)

Oh Thanks.

He cooks and cleans around the house, though he doesn't want to the world to know(oops i think i just said it







)
Thanks mammas,forgive him, he's just a 40 year old guy raised into a very male and female stereotype thing, boys dress in blue and girls in pink, etc.

Thanks for the advice








and lmao to this:

Quote:

What if reading a website called "Mothering" makes him gay?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I have nothing kind to say to a man who:

#1. Has such rigid gender stereotypes.

#2. Thinks that a TOY will make an individual homosexual or not.

and

#3. Is so homophobic as to be afraid of a toy making an individual homosexual.










-Angela


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## FancyPants (Dec 25, 2004)

get him or build him a wooden kitchen and get those realistic Ikea pots and pans and have your DH teach him to say "BAM" like Emeril?









really though I think your DH is kinda past silly


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## ~Em~ (Oct 4, 2007)

Men don't eat?

My 4yo and 2.5yo boys love their kitchen. Now - it's not hot pink or anything (I wouldn't buy a hot pink one for a girl either), but they adore it. Fantastic toy for any kiddo.


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## FancyD (Apr 22, 2005)

Mario Batali.
Anthony Bourdain.
Bobby Flay.
Jaime Oliver.
Charlie Trotter.
James Beard.
Jaques Pepin.
James Haller.
Jaques Torres.
Bernard Callebaut.

All men who have made their names in kitchens. There's many more. Way more than women, that's for sure.


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## Imogen (Jul 25, 2006)

It is very difficult for individuals to break free from the impact of gender stereotypes. There's no point being unkind to this Father, the fact that he is willing to read our responses show that on some level he *is* willing to think outside of the box.

1. Having a toy kitchen will not turn your child gay.

2. There is nothing wrong with being gay anyway.

3. Stop associating the kitchen with femaleness.

4. We're not living in the Dark Ages, men and women both cook

Peace


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## Lady In Red (Nov 17, 2007)

Nothing is more sexy to a woman than a man who can cook...


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## psyche (Apr 6, 2005)

I bought my sons a toy kitchen because I would like them to become fully functional human beings who can fend for themselves someday.

I wouldn't marry a man who wouldn't cook and I don't want daughters-in-law who would either.

Plus, it's just fun for the kids.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Einley* 
I find it fascinating that a toy can be gay or make a kid gay (a bedazzled tutu couldn't do it either I imagine).

No, of course not. But a father being worried about his son wearing a bedazzled tutu is slightly more understandable then a... kitchen. It's a kitchen! Maybe I just grew up in a gender equal home, actually I know I did because my father is a great cook, but I just can't wrap my head around the idea that a boy should not play with a toy kitchen. It's weird.


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## sofiabugmom (Sep 23, 2003)

Two words:

Iron Chef

Plus, my husband learned how to cook because he'd heard a newsradio article that did a survey on single men ... according to the article, the most, ahem, "successful" dates happened as a direct result of going to the girlfriend's apartment to cook her dinner. Before (and, yes, up to) dating me, DH claimed a 100 percent "success" rate with this particular technique.

Needless to say, he is no longer allowed to cook in any household but our own


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## Ann-Marita (Sep 20, 2003)

Having a play kitchen is no more 'gay' than EATING is.

(The way I read it, the father hasn't expressed that he thinks having a play kitchen will make his son homosexual. He's using 'gay' as a descriptive term for something that is not desirable. Not that it's any better.)


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## dancingmama (Dec 18, 2001)

So Jug, what does your dh say to all of this?

BTW, every little preschool aged boy I know has a play kitchen!!


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Just a thought to add to this - so much math is learned in the kitchen - volume, fractions (1/2 cup), weight, etc. etc. Don't give up a whole range of play that will foster your son's imagination and experience with concrete stuff that will help him succeed later!


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## shantimama (Mar 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lady In Red* 
Nothing is more sexy to a woman than a man who can cook...


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

I think that anyone who can't deal with the possibility of their child being homosexual should do us all a favor and refrain from having children. Along with all the racists, neo-nazis, and other bigots out there.







:







:


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## slymamato3 (Jan 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ann-Marita* 
Having a play kitchen is no more 'gay' than EATING is









:


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## swellmomma (Jan 1, 2004)

my parents had a hard time coming to terms with this. I had a play kitchen for my olders and my son loved it, and seeing how gaga he is over girls right now and trying to sneak a peak at the bra section of the sears catalogue being gay is not an issue. THat said, when I got rid of our old kitchen becuase it was breaking, my 4 year old was devestated. He loved his play kitchen, so for xmas I put it on his list. My parents had it in their heads he was too old to be playing with a "girl" toy. My 4 year old is a budding chef and is always in the real kitchen helping out, reciting recipes etc. They finally conceeded that having a play kitchen as a 4 yr old boy was not a bad thing, though it was my brother and his gf that got him a silver and red one, which my parents deemed appropriately "boyish". SO ridiculous

IF I was worried about toys turning my children gay my sons woud have never played with a kitchen, dolls, toy vaccums etc. My daughter would not play with cars, building blocks or other "boy" toys.


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## sparklefairy (May 21, 2005)

Cooking is an important life skill.

It is rare for both men and women to go straight from being 'cared for' by parents to being 'cared for' by a spouse. It's important that every child be given the tools for personal success.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I have nothing kind to say to a man who:

#1. Has such rigid gender stereotypes.

#2. Thinks that a TOY will make an individual homosexual or not.

and

#3. Is so homophobic as to be afraid of a toy making an individual homosexual.










-Angela

I agree.

Even if it was "gay," who the hell cares?

I think it is so beyond wrong to force our kids into narrow roles.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
I agree.

Even if it was "gay," who the hell cares?

I think it is so beyond wrong to force our kids into narrow roles.

yes that (and alegna's too of course)

i feel bad for your son


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
I agree.

Even if it was "gay," who the hell cares?

I think it is so beyond wrong to force our kids into narrow roles.

ITA. What is the big freaking deal with ensuring there is some manly way to do xyz before we let our kids do it? Or worrying about their future sexual orientation? Honest to gawd, it's crazy to police our children's behaviour so rigidly based on this stuff. If we could step back and look at ourselves we would be shocked.


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## Shonahsmom (Mar 23, 2004)

OMG! So my DP is like totally gay! I knew that wicked good beef stew was going to be our downfall!


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

I am at a loss for words.


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## Marcee (Jan 23, 2007)

I will never understand why people put so much stock in toys. They are just TOYS, for crying out loud....

My boys have had barbies, and cabbage patch dolls. My now 10 year old carried around a Buttercup doll from the power puff girls for several years. Of course he also likes to cook, and has even taken classes and ask for cook books for Christmas and his birthday, so maybe I should be worried....lol. It is all complete rubish. Kids like fun toys and that is it. It is not as deep as some people want to make it.

And while this has probably been said many of the to Chefs are male. Hello Iron Chef anyone.....


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Play kitchens help kids learn how to be cooks or chefs, roll play cooking for themselves and their familiies, etc. I'll go one step furthur and say that baby dolls can help little boys learn how to be good Daddies. Play sewing machines and irons can help boys learn how to be tailors. Toy cars help kids learn how to be good drivers. Blocks and toy trucks help kids learn how to be city planners and architects.

All of these life skills are important for all children.

All 3 of my children had a variety of toys as preschoolers: dolls, balls, toy cars and trucks, pretend household items, blocks, etc. My girls gravitated towards the dolls more than DS did, and DS gravitated towards the cars more than DDs did, but all 3 kids did play with all of the toys.

If your DH is concerned that a pink plastic kitchen is "too girly" for a boy to play with, then get a nice wooden one instead- or at least a plastic one in bright primary colors. Not that little kids care about colors or gender stereotypes anyway, and I remember reading somewhere that about 200 years ago, pink was considered a "manly color" and women never wore it.


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## elspethshimon (Nov 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I have nothing kind to say to a man who:

#1. Has such rigid gender stereotypes.

#2. Thinks that a TOY will make an individual homosexual or not.

and

#3. Is so homophobic as to be afraid of a toy making an individual homosexual.










-Angela

I could not have said it better myself.


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
I remember reading somewhere that about 200 years ago, pink was considered a "manly color" and women never wore it.









That was true up through the Victorian era, and perhaps as late as the 1930's. Red was considered a very manly color, and so pink was the lesser version for a young boy.

And of course, I had to go google it for confirmation. Very interesting.








http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=238733


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## Mackenzie (Sep 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I have nothing kind to say to a man who:

#1. Has such rigid gender stereotypes.

#2. Thinks that a TOY will make an individual homosexual or not.

and

#3. Is so homophobic as to be afraid of a toy making an individual homosexual.










-Angela


Exactly...how very unfortunate for your son.....


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## bobica (May 31, 2004)

i had this conversation with 2 of my good friends







: boggles my mind. men cook. boys can play cook. fwiw, i also believe that men hold babies and little boys can play with dolls. shock. horror.


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

What in the heck?

He's FORTY. He should know better, IMO.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I have nothing kind to say to a man who:

#1. Has such rigid gender stereotypes.

#2. Thinks that a TOY will make an individual homosexual or not.

and

#3. Is so homophobic as to be afraid of a toy making an individual homosexual.










-Angela

Exactly. Even if your son gets his--gasp!--play kitchen, I worry about the kind of messages your dh is sending him. Of course, my dd has toy trucks and a soccer ball, so obviously I'm going to "make" her a lesbian. I see little boys with baby dolls at the park all the time--I'm glad that some parents actually allow their boys to practice being nurturing parents, instead of teaching them the damaging and limiting lesson that "real" men don't parent, cook, dance, etc.

My BIL told his sister that she couldn't dress her 2 yo son ds up as Elmo for Halloween b/c "he isn't gay." WTH is WRONG with people?!?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
Toy cars help kids learn how to be good drivers.

Hmmm...obviously you haven't seen my toddler steer a toy car.


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

I assume your husband wants your son to get married as soon as he's 18, so that a woman will cook for him. Or stay at home until he does get married. Or eat nothing but KD and ichiban for years on end.


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## greeny (Apr 27, 2007)

Quote:

What if reading a website called "Mothering" makes him gay?










And another







: to alegna.


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## *Aimee* (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paquerette* 
I think that anyone who can't deal with the possibility of their child being homosexual should do us all a favor and refrain from having children. Along with all the racists, neo-nazis, and other bigots out there.







:







:

Thats a horrible thing to say. My best friends dad and mother are racist, homophobe, drug dealing, biker gang people, and I'd be devastated (as would her children I'm sure) if she was never born. You can show your disdain without telling people they're not allowed to have kids.

My DH is not afraid that DS will be gay, but we're going through this same thing kinda. I want to buy him a willowtree kitchen and fridge, but it'd cost around 500 dollars. He says thts too much money for a toy that he doesnt think is a boy toy, and he'd prefer that we bought him a work bench or something. We'd decided that when this new baby is a bit bigger we'll get them a toy kitchen as a gift together, but he thought its too much gift for a little boy. He just thinks that a little girl would get more use out of it, but he doesn't know kids very well. He also bought DS his first baby and purse, so its not a gay issue for him.


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## WonderWild (May 13, 2004)

This irritates me so much. My ds has a great clubhouse that dh built him last year. I told dh that I wanted to get a small kitchen to put in it so ds and the neighbor girls could play and dh laughed at me. Basically saying the same thing that your dh says. It's a freaking kitchen for crying out loud! It doesn't mean anything. I'm hoping I can find a used, cheap wooden set on craigslist or something.


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

I would ask him also why he hates women so much, that being associated with something he considers female is so disgusting.

My DH had such a hard time with that question so many times, that it has forced him to rethink some of his - uh - LESS INTELLIGENT opinions.


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

I don't even know what to say. Even if a kitchen WAS just for women, playing with a toy kitchen would not make him gay. People are gay because they're gay, not because their parents let them play with toys that weren't gender-appropriate.

And a kitchen isn't even specifically for a certain gender anyway.

I'm getting the feeling that there are a lot of underlying issues with your DH, and you're just scraping the surface with this kitchen thing.


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## anstar (Jan 25, 2008)

We had a brief discussion on this before we bought our son a toy kitchen (It's blue, and wooden, and cute). I think the fact that it's blue helped, but really, it was more of a "boys have to cook, too" and "some of the best chefs in the world are men" choice.

Anyway, you can find to blue one I got a Tuesday Morning, or an updated version at Target (gasp! Big Box store...)


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## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

i married a man who never learned how to cook, and it truly sucks. he grew up in a very sexist family with highly enforced gender norms (i would venture to say that their family values bordered on the misogynistic). yes, he can muster up the skills to scramble up some eggs but he thinks making pasta with jarred sauce is 'cooking' dinner.

cooking is a life skill that has no gender connotations.

but even he-who-is-clueless-in-the-kitchen would not equate playing with kitchen toys with homosexuality. what a strange, inappropriate notion.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I didn't read any of the responses, because I can barely get MDC to work for me these past few days.

Anyway.. I can see if he meant "gay" the way kids mean it these days. Teenagers say "That's so Gay" and they don't mean it the same way we might.

BUT, even if he meant "Gay" as in "Lame" I think a boy with a kitchen is as important as a girl with a tool bench. What's the difference? If your son will play with it, he should have one.

I agree with him if you want to go out and buy him a pinky frilly kitchen, because he will play with that for one year, then soon he won't ever touch it again, and those toys are expensive. You could re-sell it, but not for what it's worth.

In the 80s, Little Tykes made all their pretend play toys in primary gender neutral colors. I miss those days.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Einley* 
Exactly! Big fan of Jamie Oliver here and he is certainly not gay. Emeril, Charlie Trotter, Wolfgang Puck, Todd English, Rocco DiSpirito (YUM!) etc..
I dated a chef in college- definitely not gay.


You forgot George Foreman.


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## Rivka5 (Jul 13, 2005)

if you could keep a kid from being gay by forcing them to conform to gender roles, there would be no gay children born into homophobic families. And we *know* that's not true!


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
Anyway.. I can see if he meant "gay" the way kids mean it these days. Teenagers say "That's so Gay" and they don't mean it the same way we might.

If that's what he meant, he's still a tool and is more than old enough to know better.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

And on the flip side of things.. I'm curious what he thinks about girls playing with tonka trucks. My daughter has a giant metal tonka truck, and she LOVES it. He puts rocks in it and pushes it around the yard all the time.

For some reason when I encounter this mindset, those who think boys playing with girl toys is gay, yet they think girls playing with a tonka truck is cool. Go figure.


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
For some reason when I encounter this mindset, those who think boys playing with girl toys is gay, yet they think girls playing with a tonka truck is cool. Go figure.









Typical. Men are valued, women are a liability. If you have to have a girl, better to have one who apparently wants to be a boy. But if you have a boy who appears to want to be a girl? A fate worse than DEATH.


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## fek&fuzz (Jun 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frog* 
If that's what he meant, he's still a tool and is more than old enough to know better.

Yes, but at least a tool is a manly object.

I think the real question, frog, is whether or not you were given a toy kitchen when you were a child.


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fek&fuzz* 
I think the real question, frog, is whether or not you were given a toy kitchen when you were a child.



















You know, I don't remember having a kitchen, but that's typical for my upbringing. I did, however, have scores of Barbie dolls. I loaded them into the Tonka trucks and drove them around in the sandbox while they were wearing their frilliest dresses.

I still have all the Barbies and their clothes. My brother got the Tonka trucks.







:


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Lots of people cook. Some don't but many do.

It has nothing to do with gender or sexual preference.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frog* 
If that's what he meant, he's still a tool and is more than old enough to know better.


LMAO!! Now, now. Be nice.









I agree. Grown men shouldn't use phrases like "oh Rad!" Or "That's so Gay". Adults shouldn't be able to text message faster than a 16 year old either.

It's just wrong.

BTW. what does heteronormative mean. I looked it up and Google just gave me other options. "Did you mean...?"

Nevermind. I must have been mispelling it.

Quote:

Heteronormativity is a term that is used to describe situations wherein variations from heterosexual orientation are marginalized, ignored or persecuted by social practices, beliefs or policies


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

I want to say a big ole ditto to PPs who said that men who can cook are sexy. My dh does 90% of the cooking in our household. One major reason why I love him.

Also, cooking gives lots of opportunities to teach about:

* biology
* nutrition
* chemistry
* physics
* history, geography, and culture

A kitchen is basically a big science lab, with all edible experiments.


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

Don't straight men eat?


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

A. everyone alive should know how to make rice, toast and macaroni and cheese
B. can you married to a man who thinks this way?
C. gay is marvelous darling!


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wannabe* 
Don't straight men eat?

Only if the little woman cooks it.

(yes, I know millions of men cook)


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## Jug (Jan 3, 2008)

Hey, i just asked for opinions and help, not some of you jumping on the poor guy







No i mean it you dont have to call him a tool and stuf, and i find this rude:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty* 

i feel bad for your son

Sorry i know i came here for help but just that i think its mean and insulting, seriously







:
My Dh cooks and does "female stuff" around the house, i was actually bothered by the comment of the idea of getting DS a toy kitchen was gay, and yeah he used gay as its a girls toy, not that it will make DS gay.
Anyway, im getting the kitchen to DS from my grandpa(who is a wood toy maker).
Thankyou


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## Lady In Red (Nov 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jug* 
Hey, i just asked for opinions and help, not some of you jumping on the poor guy







No i mean it you dont have to call him a tool and stuf, and i find this rude:

Sorry i know i came here for help but just that i think its mean and insulting, seriously







:









I just read through most of this thread and I agree with you, some of the posters are out of line here. You just asked for advice and many took it as an opportunity to jump on your DH which was, IMO, completely unnecessary. The views he is expressing are FAR more common than we like to think and saying that someone should refrain from having kids for it is rude and also not to the point. His abilities as a care provider are in no way affected by his views as I see it.

A good day to you, Mama! And good luck with the new kitchen!


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
LMAO!! Now, now. Be nice.









That was as nice as I could be about this. Honestly, it irks me to no end. See, it makes me have to use this smiley:








:


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lady In Red* 
His abilities as a care provider are in no way affected by his views as I see it.


Well they certainly are affected imo when you limit your child's toys and expression, are homophobia, and enforce rigid gender roles.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jug* 
Sorry i know i came here for help but just that i think its mean and insulting, seriously







:

I think it's mean to impose strict gender roles onto a child. I didn't insult your husband, I sad I feel bad for your son, and I do. I feel bad for a boy that is going to grow up with such rigid stereotypes being expressed by his father. What if your son is gay? Or transsexual? Doesn't seem like your husband is going to be able to handle that very well.

I don't see how "used gay as its a girls toy" makes it any better.

ETA I'm also confused about what this "female stuff" is that he does around the house. What is female stuff?


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## IdahoMom (Nov 8, 2005)

Alton Brown! *swoon*


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

You know, this is one of my biggest ever pet peeves. I recall YEARS ago when I took care of 2 little boys and the 2 year old carried around this old purse of his mom's and put rocks in it and his dinosaurs and stuff, and his dad had a FIT that he had a purse. The child didn't even think of it as a "purse" and it was beyond ridiculous!

And just last weekend I heard that someone I know's husband was upset that their 7 year old son was helping his mom string beads. COME ON!!!! WTF is wrong w/ people?!?!?!?

This attitude of a boy playing w/ "girl toys" is so prevelant in our society and it just







: me and







me to no end!!!

MY own DS has a *gasp* PINK Big Wheel!! It was a hand me down (the family almost didn't give it to me and I convinced them we could care less about the color - it is a cool bike) and DS doesn't give 2 hoots.

It makes me sad, though, that he is getting to the age when he will pick up on stupid comments about his pink bike and possibly be called gay because of it.







Right now he is so oblivious to that type of thing, but the larger world out there will take that away from him.

Honestly, it upsets me greatly.


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
I
Anyway.. I can see if he meant "gay" the way kids mean it these days. Teenagers say "That's so Gay" and they don't mean it the same way we might.
BUT, even if he meant "Gay" as in "Lame"

This is slightly off topic, but if you are using the word "gay" to mean "weak, not that great, not cool, yucky"--that's pejorative. When kids these days (or even kids back in my day, this isn't a new usage, though we used to say "queer" without even knowing what it meant) say "gay" to mean "bad" they _are_ saying that being gay is bad!

(Indeed, I'm a little leery now of using "lame" to mean bad, since it seems like saying that a person who uses crutches or a wheelchair is weak, uncool, or whatever--but that is a much older usage if you check the OED and it's going to be even more difficult to uproot.)

I know this is the sort of thing that people find picky and PC or whatever, but we really have to try not to let ourselves be sloppy. About 10% of our children, going by averages, will probably be gay--no matter how macho their toys are--so we have to think about what will be good for them all as a group, and using "gay" to mean "icky" is not going to be good.


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lady In Red* 
His abilities as a care provider are in no way affected by his views as I see it.

Were you, or anyone close to you, a non-straight person raised by a homophobe? I have a pretty good idea exactly what kind of damage can be done, thank you.

And I don't think that people who were born to homophobes shouldn't have been born. I would have missed out on many friends and loves that way. But maybe, in the future, people who are so full of hate should find something else to do with their lives than raise children.


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## Scalpel (Jul 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain optimism* 
This is slightly off topic, but if you are using the word "gay" to mean "weak, not that great, not cool, yucky"--that's pejorative. When kids these days (or even kids back in my day, this isn't a new usage, though we used to say "queer" without even knowing what it meant) say "gay" to mean "bad" they _are_ saying that being gay is bad!

(Indeed, I'm a little leery now of using "lame" to mean bad, since it seems like saying that a person who uses crutches or a wheelchair is weak, uncool, or whatever--but that is a much older usage if you check the OED and it's going to be even more difficult to uproot.)

I know this is the sort of thing that people find picky and PC or whatever, but we really have to try not to let ourselves be sloppy. About 10% of our children, going by averages, will probably be gay--no matter how macho their toys are--so we have to think about what will be good for them all as a group, and using "gay" to mean "icky" is not going to be good.


Agreed!! Using these terms because everyone else does just adds fuel to the fire. Its these types of so called common everyday things that project hate even when we arent aware of it.


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## TortelliniMama (Mar 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty* 
ETA I'm also confused about what this "female stuff" is that he does around the house. What is female stuff?

Menstruation?


----------



## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TortelliniMama* 
Menstruation?









:


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TortelliniMama* 
Menstruation?

That's EXACTLY what I was thinking!









If he's going around using tampons or a breast pump or something then I take back everything I posted previously.


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

I agree with the pps--kitchens, toy or otherwise, are not "gay." Many heterosexual men cook. My husband, for example. A kitchen is *room* in a *house.* How in the world can a *room* i.e. a physical space, have sexuality attached to it?


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna* 
I agree with the pps--kitchens, toy or otherwise, are not "gay." Many heterosexual men cook. My husband, for example. A kitchen is *room* in a *house.* How in the world can a *room* i.e. a physical space, have sexuality attached to it?

I can't agree with you. I'm almost certain my foyer is bisexual.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NYCVeg* 
I can't agree with you. I'm almost certain my foyer is bisexual.

I KNOW my hall closet is. One half of it holds old football pictures, the other half has a VERY feminine vacuum cleaner. *(it's shimmery purple)*


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Y'all are SLAYIN' me.


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## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

OP, I'm sure you, your DS and DH are all just fine!








Good for you for getting the kitchen, I'm sure your DS will have hours and hours of fun with it.


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## Boot (Jan 22, 2008)

Someone using the word 'gay' to mean 'lame' does not automatically make them a homophobe. I have a male friend who uses that word a lot but he is the biological father of the son two lesbian mamas. Also, his sister is bi. He just has poor language choice judgement. I think some of you are being a bit hard on the OP's DH. I'm sure he's a perfectly nice guy and a good father.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Boot* 
I'm sure he's a perfectly nice guy and a good father.

If he's a perfectly nice guy then he needs to learn to use appropriate language.

If he was using racial slurs I doubt anyone would be defending him.

-Angela


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## jauncourt (Mar 15, 2007)

By that logic, I should be a _big scary lesbian_







. I played with boy-oriented toys most of my childhood. Fire engines, tonka trucks, action figures. My little brother thought I was the coolest big sister ever (even if I couldn't ride a bike).

However, I happen to be very attracted to male human beings, which sort of disqualifies me from being a lesbian.

People like what they like, and they love who they love, and often one has little or nothign to do with the other..


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karina5* 

This attitude of a boy playing w/ "girl toys" is so prevelant in our society and it just







: me and







me to no end!!!

MY own DS has a *gasp* PINK Big Wheel!! It was a hand me down (the family almost didn't give it to me and I convinced them we could care less about the color - it is a cool bike) and DS doesn't give 2 hoots.

I'm right there with you. My kids had a pink Big Wheel too but they picked it out at the store


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## firstkid4me (Nov 11, 2005)

As if your son being gay is the worst thing that could ever happen. It really cheeses me that people would rather their kid be a serial killer than a happy gay person.


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## nhapmom (Jan 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I have nothing kind to say to a man who:

#1. Has such rigid gender stereotypes.

#2. Thinks that a TOY will make an individual homosexual or not.

and

#3. Is so homophobic as to be afraid of a toy making an individual homosexual.










-Angela


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## vermonttaylors (May 17, 2005)

Um, I have 2 words for him:

Jamie Oliver.









Mad skillz in the kitchen. Easy on the eyes. Soooooooooo not gay.

And my younger brother for that matter. Head chef of a very well known restaurant. Getting married July 4th weekend. Granted our mothers are lesbians, but I'm pretty sure that had nothing to do with his career choice.









I swear to you, homosexuality does not rub off kitchen appliances and stick to your skin.









One tiny question, what happens if you DON'T get him a kitchen and he is still gay?







What toy could be the culprit?


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## medicmama (May 5, 2006)

MMMMM, Jamie Oliver !!!







:

THere are lots of top chefs that are male and not gay.

90 % of the meals at my house my kids prep and cook. They also play kitchen with their 1 y/o sister. They are 11,8,6 and not giving it up anytime soon.


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## Violet2 (Apr 26, 2007)

How about this: every chemist and doctor I've ever met (none of them gay) love to cook. Something about the chemistry of gourmet cooking is a big turn on.

So perhaps you have a budding scientist on your hands.

V


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## artemis80 (Sep 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lady In Red* 
Nothing is more sexy to a woman than a man who can cook...










Quote:


Originally Posted by *sofiabugmom* 

Plus, my husband learned how to cook because he'd heard a newsradio article that did a survey on single men ... according to the article, the most, ahem, "successful" dates happened as a direct result of going to the girlfriend's apartment to cook her dinner.

People! Don't you know men who can cook might also attract -







: - GAY MEN???


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artemis80* 
People! Don't you know men who can cook might also attract -







: - GAY MEN???

sure, in fact I am sure that gay men are attracted to my husband. He is HOT!


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## crazydiamond (May 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
sure, in fact I am sure that gay men are attracted to my husband. He is HOT!

Just goes to show that cooking is a skill that seems to be valued by all


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## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Violet2* 
How about this: every chemist and doctor I've ever met (none of them gay) love to cook. Something about the chemistry of gourmet cooking is a big turn on.

So perhaps you have a budding scientist on your hands.

V

Yup!! I've never met a scientist that didn't like to cook. All of my boys LOVE to cook, as does my dh (thank goodness!!!), and my brother, and my FIL who was raised on a farm and is a rugged outdoorsman type. For that matter, I find that many of the small farmers and hunters that I've known in my life have enjoyed cooking. It's a pretty basic part of human life. I feel really bad for my SIL because her dh doesn't cook AT ALL, and she's not really "into it", either. I honestly don't know what they eat -- probably restaurant food prepared by line cooks, most of whom happen to be men.

While I agree w/the vast majority of opinions posted here concerning the relevancy of the "gayness" factor of toys, I have to say that a little courtesy goes a long way. The man made an unsophisticated, uneducated remark, but it was not a direct slur, and most likely it was an honest concern based on years of misinformation. Education starts with understanding, and if you can't meet an otherwise normal person (we're not talking hate groups here) halfway, how in the world are things supposed to change?

And I've met lots and lots of people with less than stellar ideas about other people who were won over by the more open-minded opinions of their offspring. I think it's counterproductive to write off every person who says something objectionable. It's easier, but it doesn't do much for the world.








:


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *theatermom* 
The man made an unsophisticated, uneducated remark, but it was not a direct slur...

Really? You're sure?

I'm not.


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## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Of course, not knowing her husband, I can't be absolutely certain that it wasn't. However, I have encountered the kind of person who makes comments like his seems to be, and given the OP's attitude and description of the situation, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until I receive information indicating that I shouldn't.









I'd rather assume the best, and deal with being wrong, than judge first and lose the opportunity to change someone's heart and mindset.


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Yeah, I hear that, Amanda. I've just had way too many people say crap like this within ear shot of me, then act all surprised when I point out to them that it's offensive to me.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

It's an offensive comment, it's a slur, no matter if it was intended to insult gay people directly or not. Makes no difference.


----------



## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frog* 
Yeah, I hear that, Amanda. I've just had way too many people say crap like this within ear shot of me, then act all surprised when I point out to them that it's offensive to me.

I totally get this!! And I agree that it's important to point out that it's offensive. But I *don't* think that calling them names in return and refusing to engage is the best way to handle the situation, if there's any indication at all that the person is an otherwise decent person (and I'm not saying that is what *you* do, only that the thread was going in that direction). I *do* think that there's a difference between what the OP's dh said (slur though it might be) to his wife, and outright, direct slurs that are *intended* to hurt. I, too, would not engage with someone intending to hurt or malign another, because it would take a stronger power than me to change the heart of someone that filled with hate. With the given information, I'm not inclined to think that the OP's dh is filled with hate -- I'm inclined to think that it's possible that his mindset could change, and want to remain open to that possibility.


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
It's an offensive comment, it's a slur, no matter if it was intended to insult gay people directly or not. Makes no difference.









:

-Angela


----------



## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
It's an offensive comment, it's a slur, no matter if it was intended to insult gay people directly or not. Makes no difference.

For the folks who don't think the question was meant to be offensive. I agree. I don't believe (for the little I know about OP and family) that there was any intent to insult or be derogatory towards anyone.

However, this lack of understanding is *exactly the point*.

Both the statement and the assumptions behind it are misogynistic and homophobic. Period. The overt intentions may be benign, but the implicit meanings and assumptions are very very poisonous.

In these situations, it is imperative that we call people on it. Hell, when I was a teenager, I used the word "gay" to mean lame, and I got called on it - hard - by a friend, who pointed out how offensive this was. I got it. I had to learn the hard way. And I am still learning. It can take a lifetime to unlearn a all the bigotry, unfortunately.

Hopefully, the OP and her dh have learned both a little about how loaded both these terms and these approaches to gender and sexual orientation are. Again, I don't believe there was any intention of ill will - but a great deal of evil can be caused by ignorance.


----------



## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
For the folks who don't think the question was meant to be offensive. I agree. I don't believe (for the little I know about OP and family) that there was any intent to insult or be derogatory towards anyone.

However, this lack of understanding is *exactly the point*.

Both the statement and the assumptions behind it are misogynistic and homophobic. Period. The overt intentions may be benign, but the implicit meanings and assumptions are very very poisonous.

In these situations, it is imperative that we call people on it. Hell, when I was a teenager, I used the word "gay" to mean lame, and I got called on it - hard - by a friend, who pointed out how offensive this was. I got it. I had to learn the hard way. And I am still learning. It can take a lifetime to unlearn a all the bigotry, unfortunately.

Hopefully, the OP and her dh have learned both a little about how loaded both these terms and these approaches to gender and sexual orientation are. Again, I don't believe there was any intention of ill will - but a great deal of evil can be caused by ignorance.


*


----------



## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
For the folks who don't think the question was meant to be offensive. I agree. I don't believe (for the little I know about OP and family) that there was any intent to insult or be derogatory towards anyone.

However, this lack of understanding is *exactly the point*.

Both the statement and the assumptions behind it are misogynistic and homophobic. Period. The overt intentions may be benign, but the implicit meanings and assumptions are very very poisonous.

In these situations, it is imperative that we call people on it. Hell, when I was a teenager, I used the word "gay" to mean lame, and I got called on it - hard - by a friend, who pointed out how offensive this was. I got it. I had to learn the hard way. And I am still learning. It can take a lifetime to unlearn a all the bigotry, unfortunately.

Hopefully, the OP and her dh have learned both a little about how loaded both these terms and these approaches to gender and sexual orientation are. Again, I don't believe there was any intention of ill will - but a great deal of evil can be caused by ignorance.
















Yes, and I think you explained it really well (and nicely, which is refreshing). OP, this is a great post - I don't know if you are still reading these, but I hope you read this one!!


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## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
For the folks who don't think the question was meant to be offensive. I agree. I don't believe (for the little I know about OP and family) that there was any intent to insult or be derogatory towards anyone.

However, this lack of understanding is *exactly the point*.

Both the statement and the assumptions behind it are misogynistic and homophobic. Period. The overt intentions may be benign, but the implicit meanings and assumptions are very very poisonous.

In these situations, it is imperative that we call people on it. Hell, when I was a teenager, I used the word "gay" to mean lame, and I got called on it - hard - by a friend, who pointed out how offensive this was. I got it. I had to learn the hard way. And I am still learning. It can take a lifetime to unlearn a all the bigotry, unfortunately.

Hopefully, the OP and her dh have learned both a little about how loaded both these terms and these approaches to gender and sexual orientation are. Again, I don't believe there was any intention of ill will - but a great deal of evil can be caused by ignorance.

I agree w/this completely! And as I said above, I do think it's imperative to call people on it. In my original post (on page 4, I think), I said that it was an uneducated remark. I doubt, however, that much education and change (which is what I was calling for in that post, and subsequent ones) is going to take place once the word "homophobic" comes into play. Evil is often caused by, or at the very least, exacerbated by ignorance -- but refusing to engage with that ignorance when true hatred is absent and assigning labels/name calling in a tit for tat manner only compounds the problem. Once the name calling starts, the hearts and minds close, and no further progress can be made. I doubt that her husband made it past the first page.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I think if you don't call a spade a spade, or a homophobic comment, well... homophobic... people just dance merrily along thinking they have the right to speak in those ways, that it is an acceptable viewpoint meritous of real debate. Which it's not. It's homophobic.


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## hipmummy (May 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
Cooking is not specific to one gender, and cooking does not have anything to do with sexual orientation/identity. Your Dh is stuck in a very narrow mindset, and it's one that is particularly destructive to children, IMO.

Has he (Dh) ever used a stove? Scrambled an egg? Boiled macaroni? Ask him if he's gay.









And even if it could "make him gay", which it cannot... why would that be bad?

;yeah I can't wait to have a house big enough for a toy kitchen. I love a man who can cook and seeing Dh doesn't I better get crackin on ds. I love a good "air" souffle or a block pancake.


----------



## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I think if you don't call a spade a spade, or a homophobic comment, well... homophobic... people just dance merrily along thinking they have the right to speak in those ways, that it is an acceptable viewpoint meritous of real debate. Which it's not. It's homophobic.

I agree that it's homophobic. I don't think that we have to dance around that. I'm not debating that.

I'm saying that when an opportunity to educate someone who is homophobic presents itself, it does no one any good whatsoever to slap the label on and run away from the conversation. The impression left was not that the comment was homophobic, but that the person was -- however true this may be, once this is said, the chance for change is gone. I've met few people who respond in a manner conducive to positive internal growth once they've been called this -- they don't suddenly say, "Ah, I get it. I should respect everyone, and not use offensive slurs and stereotypes." I've known several people whose viewpoints on this matter changed significantly over time, partly because of my strong influence, but not once did I need to insult them in order to point out how insulting and ugly their biases were. If they had indeed been unredeemable, they wouldn't have had a place in my life to begin with, and I would probably have told them they were homophobic and left them to their own wickedness. A father of a friend of mine is indeed this way, and I have nothing to do with him, ever. I wouldn't engage him because it isn't worth my time or positive energy.

That said, since all I'm calling for is a more diplomatic manner of addressing the problem, and because I honestly know nothing about this man beyond the present conversation, I'm done. In all honesty, I do find the idea of convincing someone that a kitchen for a boy isn't "gay" a ridiculous proposition -- I wish that the OP was asking for help on how to educate her husband and open his mind and heart. In fact, I wish that more posters, including me, had responded as if that were her question.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

If you want to do 'diplomacy' as you put it, have at it. But I think it's inappropriate to tell other people they should pussy foot around an issue by avoiding calling it what it is. YMMV.


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## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Ya know, I didn't tell anyone to pussyfoot around it. Maybe my pregnancy brain is keeping me from making my point in a succinct manner.

My opinion is this: call the comment homophobic, call the attitude homophobic, call the question homophobic and refuse to answer it, but if you (not you personally) want to change anything in the life of this child, don't call his father homophobic and suggest that the child should never have been born simply because his father is being a UA violation. I find *that* inappropriate. My own father was a UA violation, and I'm very happy to be here in spite of that.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Did someone say the child should never have been born? *scratches head*


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## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Did someone say the child should never have been born? *scratches head*

Yes, at the beginning of the thread. Which is what prompted my original call for courtesy. In retrospect, I was too general at the beginning, but I'll blame my hormones for that.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I saw someone say racists, homophobes, etc should refrain from having kids not that this child should never have been born.

I think homophobia, racism, etc are abusive, and so I can see why people think abusive parents shouldn't have children.


----------



## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
I saw someone say racists, homophobes, etc should refrain from having kids not that this child should never have been born.

I think homophobia, racism, etc are abusive, and so I can see why people think abusive parents shouldn't have children.

Actually the quote was something very close to "someone who can't deal with the possibility of his child being homosexual should do the world a favor and not have children" -- the direct implication of this given the context of the thread is that this child should not have been born, since his father _at this moment in time_ is indicating that he can't deal with the possibility of homosexuality in his offspring.

ETA: And again I'm glad that no one decided that I shouldn't be here because of my father's personal issues. Obviously, it wouldn't matter to me if that had been the decision, but while we're looking back...


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I disagree with that interpretation. It was a present/future tense. Not that it really matters.


----------



## theatermom (Jun 5, 2006)

Well, here it is, not that it matters: "I think that anyone who can't deal with the possibility of their child being homosexual should do us all a favor and refrain from having children. Along with all the racists, neo-nazis, and other bigots out there." I stand by my interpretation.

And you're right, it doesn't matter. It just struck a nerve with me. I guess we wouldn't have to worry about overpopulation if this were the case. I can't argue with it in general, but it implies to me that bigots always beget bigots.

Hopefully, the child will grow up to be infinitely more open minded than his father, and the attitude currently held by his father will be so much in the minority once the child is grown that it won't bear mentioning.

Until then,







and







:


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Yes I saw the quote. I would agree with you if it had said this father should have refrained from having children. *shrug*

I do think these kinds of attitudes are abusive.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I think it's abusive too. And I would go so far as to say that I wish people who cannot handle the possibility that their child might be non-heterosexual, would not have children.







I don't think that's such a horrible thing to say, especially when you consider how tortured queer people have been over having parents who cannot accept or even actively despise them.


----------



## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I think it's abusive too. And I would go so far as to say that I wish people who cannot handle the possibility that their child might be non-heterosexual, would not have children.







I don't think that's such a horrible thing to say, especially when you consider how tortured queer people have been over having parents who cannot accept or even actively despise them.

Amen.


----------



## goodygumdrops (Jan 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crazydiamond* 
No kidding!

Some of the best chefs in the world are men. Gordon Ramsay? Yum! Definitely not gay.









:

My husband is a trained chef...he is definitely not gay. Errrr. I honestly find that way of thinking very offensive...


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## Quinalla (May 23, 2005)

First of all, the whole "X will turn my kid gay" is silly in general. I assume that is his way of saying he is worried about it being too girly.

Now if he is worried about gender stereotypes and his kid being picked on by other kids or whatever, I can see that as a legitimate concern. However, having a toy kitchen is not at all a big deal as it is fairly gender neutral, and now is the time to teach him that some people have gender stereotypes but that they are only silly stereotypes, men and women, boys and girls can do whatever they want (obviously within law, reason, etc. but you know what I mean). You make him aware of it and give him the tools to respond to anyone who *is* being taught gender stereotypes. He will have to deal with some bullying regardless, it is good to teach him how and to teach him that now.


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## Inci (Apr 22, 2005)

I'm with alegna, whose post has been quoted so many times I needn't quote it again, and Demeter9, who said: <<I would ask him also why he hates women so much, that being associated with something he considers female is so disgusting. >>

theatermom, I completely disagree with this:
<< The man made an unsophisticated, uneducated remark, but it was not a direct slur, and most likely it was an honest concern based on years of misinformation. Education starts with understanding, and if you can't meet an otherwise normal person (we're not talking hate groups here) halfway, how in the world are things supposed to change? >>

Nothing's EVER going to change (i.e. we'll NEVER overcome 5,000 years of patriarchy) if we women just keep being nicey-nice to sexist, homophobic men. I DON'T think that a sexist, homophobic man is an"otherwise decent/normal person," or that it's okay for a man to parent in a sexist/homophobic way. Saying "We're not talking hate groups here" makes it sound like, "Hey, give him a break and let him say whatever - it's not like he's advocating for gay people to DIE!" That's not enough. I know a woman whose misogynist husband treated her like crap, and his big "defense" of himself was, "Hey, it's not like I BEAT you or anything." Well whoopdee-doo! It doesn't make it okay!

I do not take sexism and homophobia lightly. I have no obligation to educate sexist and homophobic men. As a lesbian, I have the right to separate myself from sexist, homophobic men TO THE FULLEST EXTENT POSSIBLE if I so choose. No, I can't always stay away from the men who yell obscene things at me from their truck windows, or leer at me in the grocery store, but I can choose who to spend time with and converse with. And I choose to not voluntarily spend time with, or talk with, men who exhibit sexist/homophobic beliefs and practices, such as the OP's husband. It's not my (or any woman's) obligation to educate him or any other man about overcoming sexism.


----------



## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I think it's abusive too. And I would go so far as to say that I wish people who cannot handle the possibility that their child might be non-heterosexual, would not have children.







I don't think that's such a horrible thing to say, especially when you consider how tortured queer people have been over having parents who cannot accept or even actively despise them.

I wish people who cannot handle the possibility that their child might be *anything* would not have children. Any kind of "just as long as he's not _________" is a very disturbing attitude. If someone can't love his or her child *unconditionally,* I don't think that person should be a parent. Even if the child is "acceptable," it is undoubtedly traumatic to know that he might not have been.


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## karina5 (Apr 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Inci* 
theatermom, I completely disagree with this:
<< The man made an unsophisticated, uneducated remark, but it was not a direct slur, and most likely it was an honest concern based on years of misinformation. Education starts with understanding, and if you can't meet an otherwise normal person (we're not talking hate groups here) halfway, how in the world are things supposed to change? >>

Nothing's EVER going to change (i.e. we'll NEVER overcome 5,000 years of patriarchy) if we women just keep being nicey-nice to sexist, homophobic men. I DON'T think that a sexist, homophobic man is an"otherwise decent/normal person," or that it's okay for a man to parent in a sexist/homophobic way. .


I believe Theatermom explained several times that she was not suggesting being "nicey nice."


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Inci, you rawk.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna* 
I wish people who cannot handle the possibility that their child might be *anything* would not have children. Any kind of "just as long as he's not _________" is a very disturbing attitude. If someone can't love his or her child *unconditionally,* I don't think that person should be a parent. Even if the child is "acceptable," it is undoubtedly traumatic to know that he might not have been.

Totally.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Inci* 
I have no obligation to educate sexist and homophobic men. As a lesbian, I have the right to separate myself from sexist, homophobic men TO THE FULLEST EXTENT POSSIBLE if I so choose. No, I can't always stay away from the men who yell obscene things at me from their truck windows, or leer at me in the grocery store, but I can choose who to spend time with and converse with. And I choose to not voluntarily spend time with, or talk with, men who exhibit sexist/homophobic beliefs and practices, such as the OP's husband. It's not my (or any woman's) obligation to educate him or any other man about overcoming sexism.









: But you don't have to be a lesbian to have the right to distance yourself from homophobic, racist, sexist men.


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## GranoLLLy-girl (Mar 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
Cooking is not specific to one gender, and cooking does not have anything to do with sexual orientation/identity. Your Dh is stuck in a very narrow mindset, and it's one that is particularly destructive to children, IMO.

Has he (Dh) ever used a stove? Scrambled an egg? Boiled macaroni? Ask him if he's gay.









And even if it could "make him gay", which it cannot... why would that be bad?

ah yes: wisdom. thank you.


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
...you don't have to be a lesbian to have the right to distance yourself from homophobic, racist, sexist men.

Excellent point.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 







: But you don't have to be a lesbian to have the right to distance yourself from homophobic, racist, sexist men.











That is a great line. I think I need a bumper sticker that says that









-Angela


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I think it's abusive too. And I would go so far as to say that I wish people who cannot handle the possibility that their child might be non-heterosexual, would not have children.







I don't think that's such a horrible thing to say, especially when you consider how tortured queer people have been over having parents who cannot accept or even actively despise them.









:
I know a woman who told me that if her son was gay, she'd disown him. It made me angry _and_ sad...not that I think she'd be a huge loss in his life, but she's still his _mom_. Such a horrifying attitude. I just don't get it. Mind you, I don't get the whole being disappointed when a kid doesn't make the "right" career choice or marry the "right" person or go to the "right" school or whatever, either. My kid are people in their own right, and I find that the fun part of being a mom is finding out who they are...not _telling_ them that...


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

To address the OP, I wouldn't want to stand between my child and something he/she is interested in learning for any reason. If your DS likes kitchens, get the boy a kitchen. It helps with fine motor skills.

To address the "gay" comment. I don't believe he meant it as it came out but it is a slur. He should spend less time interfering with his son's play and more time thinking about the effect he has on the world around him. He is passing down to his child that being gay is inferior or undesirable. Even if your DS isn't gay, he will grow up to be an adult and it is up to you, as his parents, to teach him that someone's sexual orientation doesn't have any bearing on the quality of person they are. (Longest runon sentence ever!) Your DH should be a little more aware of what he says and how that impacts your DS.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
My kid are people in their own right, and I find that the fun part of being a mom is finding out who they are...not _telling_ them that...

My husband and I were having this very conversation at dinner tonight. We were basically just reveling in the joy that is our daughter. It's amazing to watch them grow and flourish into their own people. I can't imagine holding her back. I just can't.


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## fiorio (Aug 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
My kid are people in their own right, and I find that the fun part of being a mom is finding out who they are...not _telling_ them that...









:

I can't imagine stifling my DS's imagination and interests, especially based on outdated gender stereotypes. And my DH wouldn't either.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

If he doesn't have a kitchen, how is he going to cook that venison he shot down with his toy riffle?


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## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

OP: Has your DH read the comments, and if so, what does he think? Just to repeat what everyone else has said, a toy kitchen, or a doll or a houla-hoop will not make your child gay, and a tractor and a saw won't make him straight. My 3 yo DS has all of the above, and all I know is he is a pretty average little guy.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
If he doesn't have a kitchen, how is he going to cook that venison he shot down with his toy riffle?

That's too funny. Thread Hijack - 2bluefish, how are you doing? That other forum has been down for a while, but I still go occasionally. You still think about your births a lot? I do, but not so much, maybe once a week I have a little bit of bittersweet - bitter for what happened, sweet pride for how much I was able to do the 2nd time.


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## filiadeluna (Oct 2, 2007)

Ugh. My friend's fiance got mad at her for wanting to buy HER son (not his) a kitchen set for Christmas last year. He said the same thing, but using some choice not-so-nice words "You can't get him a kitchen set! I don't want him to be no F** "














Yeah.. her fiance is really classly, let me tell you.









Anywho:

1) Cooking, real or otherwise, does not a gay person make.

2) If the child in question does end up gay, so what? That doesn't make them a bad or unloveable person.

Some people just infuriate me with their assumptions and prejudices. If I had a son who wanted to take ballet, I would let him. If I had a son or daughter who ended up gay, I would be happy that he/she was being true to his or herself! That's all that matters!


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

I love James Oliver.

My straight-manly-man who has slowly been learning to cook started seeing James Oliver on TV.....and he went out and bought a cook book.

He made me cheesecake yesterday.

Not only is my DH AWESOME because he has successfully overcome the stupid men-don't-cook bs he grew up with, but it turns out he is a GREAT cook. I love James Oliver.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vermonttaylors* 
Um, I have 2 words for him:

Jamie Oliver.









Mad skillz in the kitchen. Easy on the eyes. Soooooooooo not gay.

And my younger brother for that matter. Head chef of a very well known restaurant. Getting married July 4th weekend. Granted our mothers are lesbians, but I'm pretty sure that had nothing to do with his career choice.









I swear to you, homosexuality does not rub off kitchen appliances and stick to your skin.









One tiny question, what happens if you DON'T get him a kitchen and he is still gay?







What toy could be the culprit?


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## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I think if you don't call a spade a spade, or a homophobic comment, well... homophobic... people just dance merrily along thinking they have the right to speak in those ways, that it is an acceptable viewpoint meritous of real debate. Which it's not. It's homophobic.

You are trying to make commentary about someone telling you their husband's issues and looking for help with it----by using the phrase calling a spade a spade.

I think this thread just hit the Irony point.


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## RadUnschooler (Jan 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I think it's abusive too. And I would go so far as to say that I wish people who cannot handle the possibility that their child might be non-heterosexual, would not have children.







I don't think that's such a horrible thing to say, especially when you consider how tortured queer people have been over having parents who cannot accept or even actively despise them.

Is seems like a very controlling thing too say: If you don't accept my lifestyle,i deem you unworthy to have kids.


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## Einley (Jul 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RadUnschooler* 
Is seems like a very controlling thing too say: If you don't accept my lifestyle,i deem you unworthy to have kids.

Homosexuality is not a lifestyle.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Einley* 
Homosexuality is not a lifestyle.

um...







:

-Angela


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RadUnschooler* 
Is seems like a very controlling thing too say: If you don't accept my lifestyle,i deem you unworthy to have kids.

Yeah, it's not a lifestyle. And, I do deem people unworthy if they don't accept queer folks. So far I'm not queen of the world so carry on.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
So far I'm not queen of the world so carry on.

Somebody is SO cruisin' for a DDDDC....









-Angela


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Ha! That would be hilarious.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Only had time to read pages 1, 4 and 8 so far (will be back after I go check on MIL - long story....)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jug* 
he used gay as its a girls toy, not that it will make DS gay.
Anyway, im getting the kitchen to DS from my grandpa(who is a wood toy maker).

Welcome to MDC!







I'm sorry you seem to have gotten into a hot topic here. I once started a thread trying to figure out more about homeschooling - not that I wanted to, but I wanted to better understand and accept that choice in my friends' lives. Some people were super helpful, but some were so mad that my kids' school didn't fit the terrible picture they painted. It got pretty heated. Now I can laugh, but then it got me a little torked.

Anyway, I think it is cool that you are getting a wooden kitchen made by your grampa!







My dad was also a wooden toy maker in his spare time (even taught classes for kids at the Seattle Science Center back in the 70s) and made me a toy kitchen, which my kids use to this day. I repainted it 'cause it was harvest gold and orange. Most played with toy in our house - by boys and girls of all ages.

But I have to agree with a lot of others that your dh using gay as a negative term (regardless of whether he thought it had anything to do with ds's sexuality) is really bad. I think it is the same as using retarded to mean bad. Both are very, very offensive.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain optimism* 
This is slightly off topic, but if you are using the word "gay" to mean "weak, not that great, not cool, yucky"--that's pejorative. When kids these days say "gay" to mean "bad" they _are_ saying that being gay is bad!

I know this is the sort of thing that people find picky and PC or whatever, but we really have to try not to let ourselves be sloppy. About 10% of our children, going by averages, will probably be gay--no matter how macho their toys are--so we have to think about what will be good for them all as a group, and using "gay" to mean "icky" is not going to be good.

Exactly. And I'm not that PC! I think a lot of it is just a little much. But using gay as a negative term isn't ok.


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RadUnschooler* 
Is seems like a very controlling thing too say: If you don't accept my lifestyle,i deem you unworthy to have kids.

I think it's a sine qua non of parenting is unconditional love. You can have opinions on your children's life choices, but if there is anything, anything at all, that your child can be or do or think or say or choose that would cause you to not love and accept your child... no, I don't think you should become a parent. Kids need unconditional love. If you can't or won't give them that, why have them?


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## RadUnschooler (Jan 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna* 
I think it's a sine qua non of parenting is unconditional love. You can have opinions on your children's life choices, but if there is anything, anything at all, that your child can be or do or think or say or choose that would cause you to not love and accept your child... no, I don't think you should become a parent. Kids need unconditional love. If you can't or won't give them that, why have them?

I do agree with that. I am not saying that's my opinion towards being homosexual at all. I am saying that you can't change people and to say they shouldn't be parents for their opinions isn't right. To say that sounds like you want to "control" them.
sorry,i didn't mean to say "lifestyle" for lack of a better word.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RadUnschooler* 
Is seems like a very controlling thing too say: If you don't accept my lifestyle,i deem you unworthy to have kids.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *RadUnschooler* 
I do agree with that. I am not saying that's my opinion towards being homosexual at all. I am saying that you can't change people and to say they shouldn't be parents for their opinions isn't right. To say that sounds like you want to "control" them.
sorry,i didn't mean to say "lifestyle" for lack of a better word.

Okay.... then is it okay for someone to have children who will hate them if they're a girl? What about someone who will ridicule them if they need glasses? Or how about if they will see them as lesser if they don't have blue eyes and blond hair?

-Angela


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RadUnschooler* 
I do agree with that. I am not saying that's my opinion towards being homosexual at all. I am saying that you can't change people and to say they shouldn't be parents for their opinions isn't right. To say that sounds like you want to "control" them.
sorry,i didn't mean to say "lifestyle" for lack of a better word.

I don't think it's about their opinions at all. We're all entitled to opinions and beliefs and preferences and hopes and dreams for our children. The difference is, if your child is different from what you might have hoped for, or if your child makes different choices from the ones you might have wanted him/her to make, would that cause you not to accept your child? Opinions are one thing, making parental love conditional upon certain things is quite different.


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## RadUnschooler (Jan 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna* 
I don't think it's about their opinions at all. We're all entitled to opinions and beliefs and preferences and hopes and dreams for our children. The difference is, if your child is different from what you might have hoped for, or if your child makes different choices from the ones you might have wanted him/her to make, would that cause you not to accept your child? Opinions are one thing, making parental love conditional upon certain things is quite different.

I just answered that. I really wasn't talking about me, my opinions at all . Please don't attack me, I accept everyone (except criminals). I know parents who might not have the greatest views and acceptance of stuff but they are still good parents and i wouldn't tell them they shouldn't have had kids because of it....that's all.
I don't agree with the people who have closed-minds at all...please, don't think of me like that.
I know i'm new here and you all don't know me that good.


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RadUnschooler* 
I just answered that. I really wasn't talking about me, my opinions at all . Please don't attack me, I accept everyone (except criminals). I know parents who might not have the greatest views and acceptance of stuff but they are still good parents and i wouldn't tell them they shouldn't have had kids because of it....that's all.
I don't agree with the people who have closed-minds at all...please, don't think of me like that.
I know i'm new here and you all don't know that good.

I'm not attacking you. I know that you aren't advocating non-acceptance of one's children. I don't think non-acceptance of one's children is an "opinion," though. I think it's emotional abuse. And, yes, I think people who abuse children, be it physically, emotionally, or any other way, should refrain from becoming parents.


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## RadUnschooler (Jan 23, 2008)

I do see your point.
My parents should never have had me (because of the emotional abuse) but then i wouldn't be a mommy doing it different,unconditional love,respect,trust,etc.. for my son.
ouch.


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RadUnschooler* 
I do see your point.
My parents should never have had me (because of the emotional abuse) but then i wouldn't be a mommy doing it different,unconditional love,respect,trust,etc.. for my son.
ouch.

I don't think she shouldn't have had you. But, would you think that it's a good idea for her to have another baby, now, knowing that she would likely abuse that baby as well? That's what I think we're talking about.


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

Quote:

Originally Posted by thismama
I think if you don't call a spade a spade, or a homophobic comment, well... homophobic... people just dance merrily along thinking they have the right to speak in those ways, that it is an acceptable viewpoint meritous of real debate. Which it's not. It's homophobic.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Demeter9* 
You are trying to make commentary about someone telling you their husband's issues and looking for help with it----by using the phrase calling a spade a spade.

I think this thread just hit the Irony point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_call_a_spade_a_spade

Quote:

Its ultimate source is Plutarch's Apophthegmata Laconica (178BC)...The phrase predates the use of the word "spade" as an ethnic slur, which was not recorded in usage until 1928.


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## lanamommyphd07 (Feb 14, 2007)

Oh.my.goodness.
It's finally come to me.... All this time I thought I was _born_ gay, but now I realize --- it was my Lesbomaker play kitchen!!!!! They should have never let me play with that!! What was my mother thinking??


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I have nothing kind to say to a man who:

#1. Has such rigid gender stereotypes.

#2. Thinks that a TOY will make an individual homosexual or not.

and

#3. Is so homophobic as to be afraid of a toy making an individual homosexual.










-Angela

Yup, I'm agreeing with Alegna here.

And I guess the OP's husband is hoping his son moves right out from his mommy's house into his wife's house then? So that the women can cook for him his whole life?!?

http://www.willowtoys.com/ has some fantastic kitchens, MUCH better than any of the plastic ones out there.

A cute story:
BTW, my husband does the majority of cooking in our house. And when my son was 2, he had a toy kitchen and one day some twins we know came over and the little girl went to go play with his kitchen and he said, "no! Don't play with that, that's a BOY TOY!!" I laughed so hard...hahahaha.... I had to explain to him that yes, even though Daddy cooks supper all the time, both boys and girls can learn to cook. For some reason, DS forgot completely that I would usually make him breakfast, snacks and lunch...to him supper was the only meal that mattered, I guess.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fiorio* 







:

I can't imagine stifling my DS's imagination and interests, especially based on outdated gender stereotypes. And my DH wouldn't either.











eta: That's so wacky...I didn't mean to laugh at fiorios' above post, I was laughing at the joke way above,
something like, "How will your son learn to cook the venison he shoots with his toy rifle?" LOL!!!!


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