# In my body, my bedroom, my marriage.....



## Els' 3 Ones

and now my home.

Our gov't. Here in the home of the free.

Tells me which medical procedures I can or cannot choose to have.

Tells me I can't have anal sex (this one may be going away)

Tells me who I can marry, and also takes away the rights of my spouse to act as my guardian if they see fit.

Now I read that they will prosecute me if I don't keep a good enough house for my children. Even after being a good pro-lifer and bearing all my children after my partner abandons them.

All I have so far is Maggie Gallagher's op-ed, I will try to research the story. This stinks..........real bad.

WHY IS ONLY THE MOTHER CULPABLE IN CONNECTICUT BOY'S DEATH?

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

El


----------



## Arduinna

what happened to the vomit smilie?


----------



## MotherNatrsSon

If the system does not hold her responsible, it may look like the school system, social services system, psychiatric medical system, is partially responsible.

We are now being pushed by the "religious self-righteuos right" to be held to their imagined standards.

This is just the tip of the iceburg imho. People, not only single mom's, that have children that are being raised substandard, according to the "New Reich", because it reeks of similarities as to what the Nazi's did in Germany, will be placing children, for their own protection mind you, in homes that "follow the party-line". The society now has a misplaced sense of responsibility towards children and is running with it to see how far they can go.

I hope she appeals to the Supreme Court. This is just absurd.

MNS


----------



## Marlena

I'm certainly not taking sides in this, as the only information I have is from the link you posted. However, I would suspect that the mother probably had full legal and physical custody of the boy (given that the dad was, according to the story, in and out of jail all the time). If this is correct, then she, rather than the dad, is on the hook for the child's upbringing (legally, in any event, that is).

You can't both have your cake and eat it, folks.


----------



## daylily

This is terrible! My heart breaks for that woman.


----------



## Greaseball

Is there another link? How did the boy kill himself? Did the school do anything to try and stop the bullying? What exactly was wrong with the mother's house?

But I agree that it's always the single mother who gets blamed and not the absent father. So because he's in and out of jail, he shouldn't have to be responsible for his child? No! People who have children should not do things they will go to jail for. Fathers need to start taking responsibility even if they don't have full custody.

The reason single mothers are single is often because the father chooses to walk out or to be otherwise unfit - most single moms I know are not single by choice.


----------



## Hilary Briss

Quote:

Tells me I can't have anal sex (this one may be going away)
When Ashcroft comes to your door, just tell him it was dark, and you were too sleepy to notice the difference.


----------



## kama'aina mama

The 12 year old boy hung himself with a necktie in his closet. And the court has decided that it is his mothers fault for being too tired from working 60 hours a week (one job at the boys school, a second at Walmart) to either clean the apartment herself or strong arm the boy and/or his 17 y/o sister to clean it. Apparently they feel that a dirty bathtub and clothes on the floor had more to do with him killing himself than being so upset and frightened by being repeatedly beaten, spat upon and kicked at school that he slept hiding in his closet with a knife handy for protection and had skipped about 45 days of school before Christmas break started.


----------



## PurplePixiePooh

Quote:

Bad as his messy home apparently was, young Daniel Scruggs preferred staying there to the local public school where witnesses say he was hit, kicked, spit upon and harassed to the point of publicly defecating and urinating in his pants. He missed 44 days of school that year.
This is a crime. The school, the tormentors and the district should be the ones charged. I was raised by a single mother. I know how hard it is for one person to do it all. I'm sory, but since when does a messy, or dare I even say a filthy house intice someone to suicide? It may entice them to a vaccuum cleaner, not suicide.

This bot was traumatized beyond reasonable thought by bullies and sadly this happens every single day in our schools. If adults were to act like that at work, there would be prisions full of them. But because your in school its ok? Whatever.

Slightly OT here, but why is it whenever something like this happens it's automaticly blamed on the "religious right"? What in the world does ones faith have to do with stupidity?


----------



## Els' 3 Ones

There are a number of articles on this boy if you search Google. All them are similar..................







Poor kid. Poor mom.

I fully believe the system is dodging the bullit and deflecting it unjustly toward the mother.

Why can't society see what is happening in so many single parent households? We can borrow 87 billion for Iraq but cannot ensure that kids have a parent available to them part of the day.

I'm so sick of this patriarchal society that continues to victimize women and children!! All the while claiming to care deeply for the children (really only the unborn).

He was a cute little guy.............

'Bullycide' or Neglect?

Quote:

At Scruggs' request, the school sent an outreach worker to talk to her son. However, Daniel's absences continued. Washington Middle School's guidance counselor contacted the state Department of Children and Families for suspected physical and educational neglect. (A DCF social worker conducted an investigation and did not find any signs of neglect. Daniel's case was closed the case weeks before his death.) The school filed a petition with the Superior Court for Juvenile Matters, which assigned a probation officer to Daniel.

But none of these initial measures helped Daniel. He didn't attend school after Nov. 28, 2001. School officials met with Scruggs on Dec. 4 and recommended that she have him tested in several areas, including his social-emotional capabilities and behavioral functions.

According to defense attorney Norris, Scruggs was told that the earliest she could schedule an appointment for Daniel was the following month, on Jan. 2, 2002. And Scruggs did call on that day to schedule counseling and tests - but that was before she knew Daniel had killed himself.

El


----------



## TiredX2

Do you have a link?

Quote:

If adults were to act like that at work, there would be prisions full of them. But because your in school its ok? Whatever.
*this* is one reason DH is really behind homeschooling. He always felt like a social outcast, but come adulthood and he is totally normal. A much wider range of behavior is accepted from adults w/out negativity (like "dorkiness" and bad dressing







) and we just don't understand the benifits of being raised like this.

Kay


----------



## TiredX2

This is absolutely









I do believe that clean home, clothes, food etc should be provided for a child. But, what *they* do with it is up to them (is the mother or 17 year old sister dirty like that? If no, its probably the boys choice).

And it *DOES NOT* matter what he was doing (being stinky, not dressing cool, whatever) the school has a moral responsibility to not let him get spit on and stuff. Horrid, horrid, horrid.


----------



## PurplePixiePooh

I ment this to be a response, not a new thread. UGH....
Can someone please move this back to the original my body, my marriage...thread???? Thank you and sorry for my boo-boo


----------



## TiredX2

: aaaah, now it all makes so much more sense (after having read the other thread!)


----------



## Potty Diva

I am absolutely speachless.

Who's next? Us?

It is cases like these that make me fear that my daughter could be taken from me because I could be considered neglectful.

This is the reason I make sure my house is SPOTLESS and things are picked up, for fear that someone will see a dirty house and call social services.

I cannot even imagine the pain and loss this mothering is suffering, not to mention the anger and frustration she must feel with all of this being laid upon her.

If you have ever been picked on and bullied at school you might be able to understand how suicide could be an option. I know for my husband it was.

I just can't believe the mother is being blamed for her sons suicide, especially when authorities had been called out a few times.

*sigh*


----------



## TiredX2

Quote:

It is cases like these that make me fear that my daughter could be taken from me because I could be considered neglectful.
Well, you're married so you are less at risk. I wish I wasn't kidding, but I find social services to be VERY classist.


----------



## candiland

Sorry, I will have to be the lone voice of dissent here.
A 12 yo. *most likely* would not kill himself just because he was being bullied in school. I would bet my last tax dollar that he has had a crappy home life from the very beginning. If all 12 yo's who were bullied relentlessly killed themselves, we would probably have lost 15% of our American population. A strong, loving home life *can* buffer a person from some of that torment. If a loving home life is not present, sure, I can see how the poor kid would have been driven to commit suicide.
I think that because she's a single mother, you automatically take her side instead of the govt's. I think it's great to defend the underdog, but this really reeks of a horrible, nasty home life.... single, married, whatever.... I would still come to that same conclusion.


----------



## TiredX2

I assume being bullied is probably the most "popular" reason for pre-adolescents to consider suicide.

I really don't see what more this mother could have done (besides quitting a job, which I wish she had felt was an option) if she really was trying to get counseling (like stated), in contact w/ the school, etc..


----------



## Els' 3 Ones

I find it amazing that parents are not charged when they *forget* to drop the child at daycare and she dies slowly in the hot car but, here they find cause to charge the mother.

You're right, candiland, I am siding with the single mom breaking down herself under the strain........................she doesn't deserve this.

El


----------



## Potty Diva

Why would you assume this child had a crappy home life? Where have you read that? Is there a link?

Nothing in the stories I have read support that claim, and I suppose if you ahve not been a victim of bullying, you couldn't imagine the pain.

And I am siding with this mother until further facts against her are shown.


----------



## Greaseball

Quote:

A 12 yo. *most likely* would not kill himself just because he was being bullied in school.
When you're 12, your whole identity can be tied up with what people at school think of you. I was being bullied at school when I was 14 so I arranged to buy a gun there, and considered suicide as well.

It's true, many suicidal people believe they have nothing, including family. It's hard to think you have a family when your mom hardly ever gets to see you because she's at work all the time. Remember when parents were, in a sense, paid to stay home with their children?


----------



## Arduinna

12 year olds do kill themselves because of teasing, in 2001 Tempest Smith a 12 year old girl killed herself because she was teased, bullied and tormented at school by a group of "Christian" girls for being pagan. There is now a 10 million dollar lawsuit.

I haven't kept up on the story for at least the last year, but here is a link for anyone interested.

http://www.angelfire.com/ga4/suicideawareness/5.html


----------



## Els' 3 Ones

I was very suicidal - numerous attempts - from 10 thru 14.............................this story has really hit me hard.


----------



## Curandera

1 - What is being done to help other similar cases out there? I'm sure there are more. Why is it there wasn't more intervention on the bullying? Like a group therapy session or something? And the mother worked there!!! Where was her support from her fellow employees?
2 - When I worked for a service for poor senior citizens there were resources to help them get maids to help clean their house - why can't something similar be offered for struggling working mothers?
3 - There is very little in life more depressing then feeling you are not liked by your peers. My parents loved me, I had a stable, clean home - but the pain and shock of being teased between 2nd - 6th grade effects me to this day. I, too, contemplated suicide.
4 - Who was defending this woman? Is there an appeal? What is happening to her other children?


----------



## StarMama

I was HORRIBLY teased in school. I had 2 friends in elementry school, both of them horribly teased as well. I spent lunches in the library, close to the librarian so I couldn't be teased or hit or have something thrown at me, ect. At the educational week camp we took in 6th grade I had a BRICK thrown at me by other children. Kids can be horribly cruel. I had clothing ripped or written on, hair yanked out, bruises, theft of property or schoolwork that my name was erased on and turned in as their own (I can specifically remember drawing something that was stolen and turned in and got the "star spot" with the other child's name on it). Teachers called me a tattletale, a crybaby, and I was punished for telling on other kids. I think that was the worst. It's horrific to be teased and bullied. It really is. Bad enough to try to take your life? Perhaps it is if no one will help you...


----------



## daylily

Even if the mother *is* culpable in this case, does she deserve to spend 10 years in jail? Is she that much of a danger to society?

For the record, I don't blame the mother. Yes, there are things she could have done to help her son--_if_ she weren't working 60 hours a week trying to put food on the table.

When you consider that politicians are howling to get "welfare mothers" back in the workforce, it's incredible that someone who was supporting herself would get punished for it.


----------



## 3boys4us

I have mixed emotions on this one - I do think Ms. Scruggs did not have a chance to get her side of the story out. But there was an article here in RI with her 3 older children who she left with her parents when they were young. Her older children were quite bitter about her.

IMO the whole family could have (and probably could still) use some counseling. Certainly the state of CT was asked on several occasions to look out for this kid and nothing happened. Are the social worker and the guidance counsler also being charged in this death?

Quote:

A 12 yo. *most likely* would not kill himself just because he was being bullied in school.
We have a friend right now who has a 13 yr old who is suffering from depression, doing poorly in school and wants to drop out - why because if he isn't being bullied, he's being ignored. It has affected the whole family. What is their main concern? That he will try to hurt himself.

Suicide is the 6th leading cause of death for children aged 5 - 14 yrs. (CDC)


----------



## Rie&BugsMom

Quote:

_Originally posted by candiland_
*Sorry, I will have to be the lone voice of dissent here.
A 12 yo. *most likely* would not kill himself just because he was being bullied in school. I would bet my last tax dollar that he has had a crappy home life from the very beginning.*

I feel it presumptuous to "assume" that bullying alone would not be reason for him to commit suicide. How do you or anyone else know the emotional state this poor boy was in from all the bullying? Apparently for him to miss 44 days of school before Christmas is an indication of the severity of the bullying at school. So severe in fact that he he urinated and defecated himself during one of those bullying situations. I have an 11 yr. old ds, and I can only imagine the depth of his emotional pain if he were having to endure that kind of treatment at school. My heart aches for the pain that 12 yr old boy suffered emotionally and mentally at the hands of his peers. That poor child took it upon himself to end his suffering obviously because these bullies at school could not be controlled. He couldnt' trust the school system to do their job in keeping him safe from physical harm, in providing a good learning environment for him in school. In some aspects, I wonder why they can't charge those bullies with the death of the one they tortured endlessly....Why not charge the principle of that school for not providing a safe environment for him?????That school KNEW this was going on. Yet they aren't responsible??????? What the hell is that about? why go after the Mother just because she had an unclean house and trying to work hard at paying bills and putting food on the table for her children????? She was being a mother the best way she knew how to do. It is hard enough on her to know that her son killed himself.....much less be told you are to blame for it because you are working and your house was a mess.

This story makes me sick !!!! I just want to


----------



## athena_dreaming

As another formerly bullied person here, and at around that age, I almost did kill myself. It is incredibly painful. It's true that my home life was not ideal, but the pain I was in was not from my parents. It is incredibly, incredibly hard to get up every morning and force yourself to go to an environment where people compete with each other to see who hates you the most.

Anyway, that's neither here nor there.

It is unfortunately true that in the US, mothers are blamed for what happens with their kids almost regardless of what else is happening in their lives. I remember reading a year or so back about some moms who were in jail for life because their boyfriends had killed their children.

So follow this, if you can:

--Single mom, demonized for being such, finds a replacement father figure.
--Replacement father figure turns out to be abusive and kills womahn's child.
--Mom sent to jail for the rest of her life for being with someone who killed her child.

And in many of those cases, the woman actually received a longer sentence than the man who did the crime!

I can try to dig up the links if anyone's interested, although it was a while ago so I don't know if they would still be up.


----------



## 1jooj

I'd be really interested in hearing the angles here--both the way the prosecution presented things and they way the jury digested it.

And who defended her?


----------



## candiland

There is a difference between a messy house.... yes, everyone's human and not everyone's house is clean all the time... and a deplorable one. Did you hear of the description of this woman's house?
Un. Fit. Par. Ent. Sorry, but I don't care if you're red, green, yellow, purple, single, gay, married, straight, whatever.... having a house in a deplorable state is unacceptable. 60 hours of work a week is a lot, but certainly not abnormal. It doesn't mean your house should reek so bad you can smell it from the street and the house so messy that you cannot even walk inside of it. Do you honestly believe that this doesn't have serious psychological consequences? And what *kind* of person keeps a house like this? Nothing can convince me that a psychologically healthy parent would keep her child in those conditions.
.........IF the stories I heard on the news are TRUE. Could they be greatly exaggerated? Sure. Should the school system be held equally responsible? Of course! Should the woman have psychological help instead of being put behind bars? Yes, I believe so, 100%. I don't agree with how the state is handling this, but I do think that a parent who is raising a child that way *is* unfit and *does* need serious help.


----------



## Potty Diva

I have not heard of the specifics of her house. Where did you hear or see this info candiland? Could you post a link or give a description? TIA.


----------



## CD_addict

This is actually rather old news...or so i thought

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/10/06/so....ap/index.html

Based on CNN"s version, I think she is culpable. And yes maybe the school disctrict etc should shoulder some of the blame. But I can't fathom a mother letting her living situation get that bad.


----------



## Potty Diva

Quote:

Scruggs told police Daniel was afraid of bullies who had kicked and punched him, and he kept knives in his closet out of fear before killing himself in January 2002.
This says a lot to me about this child's mental state. He was pick on for so long it seems he became paranoid.

As for the state of the house, the policece came AFTER the child had committed suicide so we don't know for how long the house was in the *much* of a disarray.

If it were me, my house would be in shambles to...the last thing on my mind would be cleaning an already dirty home.

Am I making sense here?

What I am saying is that the death of her child probably contributed to the dirty house, becoming more dirty.

It says she would tell her *12* yr old son to shower and he wouldn't.

If this were my son, I would do the same thing. I would hope that he would decide, "gee, I don't smell very good. Think I'll take a shower."

How can you force a 12 yr old to shower???


----------



## MotherNatrsSon

Quote:

_Originally posted by CD_addict_
*This is actually rather old news...or so i thought

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/10/06/so....ap/index.html

Based on CNN"s version, I think she is culpable. And yes maybe the school disctrict etc should shoulder some of the blame. But I can't fathom a mother letting her living situation get that bad.*
Anybody that believes CNN needs their ead examined. Corporate propaganda at it's worst........LOL

MNS


----------



## CD_addict

Are you attacking my mental state because you have nothing to add to the discussion at hand









I know full good and well that CNN and every other news source is biased and yes, propaganda. And that includes the link in the op







: I don't live under a rock and I didn't just drop off the turnip truck yesterday so perhaps you could do a search on google to see that MANY sites have covers this story and pick one of your chosing to believe or whatever......


----------



## Rie&BugsMom

Quote:

The kitchen was full of dirty dishes and spills and stains.
My kitchen can get like that when I am cooking a big meal. There are times my kitchen will be a big mess after I am done cooking. Sometimes, it is late and I don't want to do dishes to til morning.

Quote:

The bathroom floor and the bathtub were covered with clothes, and the toilet, sink and tub were soiled.
My bathroom floor gets covered in clothes when all of us take a shower in the evening. I know the tub is soiled after use. When my kids use the sink and brush their teeth, they always drop a part of the toothpaste in the sink that I invariably push down the drain when I brush mine. The toilet will always be soiled with the male species in the home. For some reason, hitting just the toilet is difficult for men. It is called,..."Clean up after yourselves", which we all know that not all of us do in our households at the very second we made a mess in our home.....otherwise we wouldn't have women on other threads discussing this very issue of home cleanup frustrations..would we? How about the FlyLady thread? How incredibly orgainized would you like this woman to be on a daily basis working 60 hrs a week? How many of you can say that your teenagers keep a tight ship at home when you are not in the house? I don't know any teenager that keeps the house neat and tidy for his Single parent coming home from a long days work.

Quote:

Norris said prosecutors never provided evidence linking the condition of the home to the suicide.
Probably because it sounds to me they simply came in to investigate when the son was found dead and the house was in a disarray. The original articles stated she had 5 children.Gee, I wouldn't imagine the grieving Mother thought about her messy house in light of finding her son dead from suicide.

Quote:

Norris had called the boy's death a case "Bullycide." The suicide spawned a Connecticut law mandating schools to report bullies to authorities
I would imagine the reason they created that new law was because his suicide was more a direct result of his problems related to the bullies at school. Besides, when teenagers are depressed and being bullied at school, the last thing that is on their mind is coming home and cleaning a home. I know that cleaning my home was the last thing on my mind when I came home from working a 12 hour day as a Police Dispatcher.

January 2, 2002 was a Wednesday. Lets say she cleaned her home on the weekend. At least in my home, my house is a mess again by Wednesday unless I really stay on top of it.


----------



## Greaseball

Quote:

2 - When I worked for a service for poor senior citizens there were resources to help them get maids to help clean their house - why can't something similar be offered for struggling working mothers?
Because single mothers are seen as "lazy" (especially if they work only 100+ UNPAID hours in the home) and "irresponsible" (as if they just got themselves pregnant all alone and there was no slut of a single "father" involved) and "they made their bed, they should lie in it."

I used to live in truly deplorable conditions - homeless, sleeping next to feces in below-zero weather, etc. and was not suicidal because of it. If the woman is to be cited for having an unsafe home, it should be considered separate from the boy's death.


----------



## kama'aina mama

Just make a note of it ladies:
1. It is ALWAYS the mother's fault.
2. Keeping your house spotless is STILL your most important job.


----------



## Curandera

Quote:

_Originally posted by kama'aina mama_
*Just make a note of it ladies:
1. It is ALWAYS the mother's fault.
2. Keeping your house spotless is STILL your most important job.*
Thanks a lot - just what I didn't need to hear - I'm crawling in bed and never coming out!


----------



## artemesia

Horrible, horrible, horrible. Horrible for the boy, horrible for the mother.
While I can see that a really messy house would not be the greatest environment for a person who is alrady terribly depressed, it surely is not what drives a person to actually kill themselves.
I was bullied in school too, I know what it is like. I stopped going to school, was punished when I lashed out at those who tormented me, but my tormentors were never ever punished. Can't go punishing the star football player, or the cute cheerleaders just for picking on the wierd kid, afterall, kids will be kids right? Yeah, I thought of killing myself, I had violent thoughts (though I never acted on them). Yes, bullying in school can lead someone to desperate acts.


----------



## sohj

Quote:

_Originally posted by kama'aina mama_
*Just make a note of it ladies:
1. It is ALWAYS the mother's fault.
2. Keeping your house spotless is STILL your most important job.*

...and, as I was gathering from some of the posts on another thread in this forum, my primary purpose in life is to be a vessel for a growing fetus.

The riffs floating through my brain are reminding me of a greek novel I read in translation called The Murderess. She was an old woman who realized that all she had been was a vessel for children and that each of the little girls playing around a well in front of her were going to be that as well...and the little boys who were teasing them were going to do whatever they were good at, but the girls were going to be mothers no matter what...and she 'cracked' and tipped the girls into the well, killing them to 'save' them from becomming women and vessels. The rest of the book is about her walking off across the fields and people from the village chasing her down.

What's the point of that? Mmmmm, not sure. But my brain somehow thought it was connected.

My brain also came up with that scene in American Beauty where the boy with the camera and the plastic bag swirling around in the breeze takes the girl (daughter of Kevin Kline's character) to his spotless, Ethan-Allan-furnished house and introduces her to his mother...who is sitting terrified and sad at the head of a highly polished table, staring at the living room and says "I'm sorry for the state of things here." And the girl looks around slowly and apparently wonders what she is talking about.

Yeah, I'm getting worried about the state of things here and it has nothing to do with how tidy my house is.

Anyhow....







Can you say T-A-L-I-B-A-N?

Or, perhaps, Nazi Germany?

Are women going to get given medals now by the government for having a huge number of children and keeping the house clean spotless?

And I sure hope those medals are gold bullion, pure to 1/1000th. 'Cause I'm hoping that some women melt them down and buy the country back.

Of course, there is always the possibility that many or most women might be foolish enough to get brainwashed into thinking the medals are a great thing.

People love to gang up on the weak person. What is weaker than a woman who is a "failed mother"? To use an old saying: Let he who is without sin among you cast the first stone.

It won't be me.









My house is clean because I pay someone to come in for four hours on Thursday mornings each week to do the deep cleaning and because I have a nanny who works 40 hours a week and seems to get bored when my pixie is napping and cleans everything again. (Even though I've told her several times that that is NOT necessary....and of course I thank her each time this happens, too.)

Note the important fact there







: I PAY SOMEONE TO KEEP MY HOUSE CLEAN. I work outside the home for long hours and come home exhausted from being outdoors in the cold or heat, going up and down scaffolding or ladders or construction elevators and dealing with contractor issues all day. I used to keep my house clean myself....by spending all weekend doing it and the laundry and cooking for the week ahead. I decided







that I needed to still have time for friends and that I had enough money to pay someone else to do stuff for me.

NOTE: My house is clean because I can afford it...not because I am a deeply moral person or because I am better than someone else. It is clean because I am lucky.
















































































edited to add a comment about bullying: If you don't think that bullying alone would be sufficient to make someone feel miserable enough to commit suicide, then you haven't been bullied. Bullying can certainly cause people to have enough anger to hurt others (one of the subtexts of Bowling for Columbine) and can certainly make someone turn the anger on themselves.

I got bullied...and I fought it and I was lucky enough (arrpgant enough?) to know that the person doing the bullying just wasn't loved enough or was just jealous or was just a moron and it had nothing to do with me. And, since it didn't "bother" me, they eventually stopped....because I don't give a $h!t what someone thinks about me. But, I have enough empathy, for all of my brass balls, to know that very few people have such an inflated opinion of themselves and do all kinds of self distructive things due to bullying:

--They bully others;
--They become anorexic/bulemic;
--They cut their skin in hidden places and watch the blood;
--They do drugs;
--They drink;
--They try and fit in and always feel a "little" insecure and have a midlife crisis thirty years later and who knows what the fallout from that will be;
--They kill someone
--They commit suicide.

Take your pick.


----------



## StarMama

From that CNN report it seems like she's being charged because she was responsible for her child smelling and therefore responsible for the teasing:

Quote:

Judith Scruggs, 52, was found guilty of one count of risk of injury to a minor for creating a filthy home that prosecutors said prevented J. Daniel Scruggs from improving his hygiene
Ok, so moms are now going to be worried about going to jail if they don't buy their kids the latest hippest clothing? Or perhaps because their child inherits the dad's large ears? Or maybe be charged if their child gains a little too much weight and is the chubby one in class?

That's just how CNN seems to word it though. Other news articles don't neccisarily put it in that light.

I don't think a messy house is going to make a kid kill himself. I've never met an almost teenager who really cared if he/she lived in a clean house. Yes ok, this place was over the top, and I'm sure if it smelt that bad it didn't help this boy (his clothing probably smelled from the house being so messy) but jailing the mother for that is like jailing a mass murderer's parents for being abusive, or absent, or whatever you know?

It doesn't matter if this kid was 300 pounds, had 3 eyes, and smelled like a skunk, he shouldn't have been allowed to be bullied to this extreme. (Teachers and other School Officals not doing crap about bullying is a big pet peeve of mine due to how I experienced that as a child myself)


----------



## Britishmum

I'd like to know the extent of the 'mess' in the house. I would guess, having read the story, that the mess isn't the sort of mess that we are talking about in our own homes.

During my career, I visited homes where the 'mess' is beyond the pale, and yes, it was a form of abuse. It was a part of a whole neglect of the child's physical and psychological wellbeing. I personally have bathed children and taken them shopping for new clothes,. I have washed their laundry for them and redressed them in their cleaned clothes, and most of the time, their mothers wouldnt even notice. I've known families where children have one set of clothes (including underwear). Period. For a year or more. They wear them day in day out. One child I knew had his jeans cut into shorts each spring, to make them last through another six months. This is not a messy child. It is neglect and abuse.

I think that its all too easy to jump on a bandwagon because she is a single mother and see her as being persecuted. But a child who is soiling himself to avoid going to school is in serious psychological trouble. Everyone must bear some portion of blame, but the mother, who had full custody I believe of the child, was responsible for his health and wellfare. It seems that she failed miserably.

Someone should have picked up on this and given help, or removed the child if it was beyond help. Someone should have done something in school. But we cant' have our cake and eat it - a while ago everyone on mdc was up in arms at a child tracking system being started (in the UK) as being govt intervention and none of their business. If children are to be protected, social services need to be able to get involved and stick their noses in parental business.

It's a fine line, and this child was failed miserably by his mother and the school. But I don't believe because the school, and various other agencies, failed him, that his mother can be seen as just a victim.

Millions of women work 60 hour weeks. They don't have filthy homes and filthy children. They might have a mess, but there is a huge difference between mess and filth. I've seen it, and I can tell you, there's a difference. I bet if any of us had walked into that home, we would have been shocked. We shouldn't minimise the situation by calling it a 'mess'.

It's just sad that they didnt step in with cps involvement before, and if necessary removed the boy then, if she wasn't willing or able to change.


----------



## candiland




----------



## shine

sohj-- yeah. I hear ya. you are one very awake aware woman.

on a very side note: regarding the story you recounted about the woman and the well -- have you ever noticed that if a woman kills a child it's almost always by drowning? and so frequently when drowned, because of wanting to "save" the child? Do you ever wonder if there is some psychological breaking point that causes women to want to "put the baby back in" as in back into the waters -- amniotic waters -- the original sea? odd.

Regarding bullying -- yep, me too. And I wasn't bullied the worst -- in my neighborhood there were a couple of young males -- 12 years old at the time -- who bloodied a number of other children over and over again, tried to rape me several times. Suicidal? from time to time it seemed like a good idea.

I also have another idea about this young boy -- he sounds bipolar. My husband (also named Daniel) is bipolar and the hygiene issues and deep emotional pain sound very familiar. Without meds bipolar disorder can be crushing and for a 12 year old who is being tortured at school.... well, we can see the damage. This child may well have had a psychiatric disturbance (which could have been passed down from the father -- he clearly had his own problems) that was as yet undiagnosed. The mother was obviously making the attempts to get help.


----------



## Greaseball

My house is often very messy. Weird smells and everything. Not because I don't have time to clean it, but because sometimes I just don't feel like it. If I don't want to do it, dh will. If he doesn't want to, I will. If neither of us wants to, it just doesn't get done. When people come over unexpectedly, we don't tell them that if only we had known they were coming we would have cleaned up, because it's just not true.

Not only am I a fit parent, I am the best parent my children could ever have. And no, it's not a suicide risk.


----------



## SpiralWoman

Quote:

prosecutors

Quote:

judges
these are the 2 most important words in all these posts, IMO. If we don't start paying attention to our ELECTED local prosecutors & judges this crazy crap is gonna keep happening. Also, school boards are also elected!


----------



## 5796

This is not exactly on topic but it is not exactly off topic....

I have never, ever been satisfied by the news regarding the bullies. After Columbine I saw one interview after another of the parents and friends of the people who died. And believe me I felt horrible for them. Just horrible.
But I never saw an interview with The Bullies. Or with The Bullies parents. No one came forward and owned their part of the puzzle. Everyone was quick to lay all the blame on the two killers and yes, of course what they did was horrible. But I felt at that point there would have been a great opportunity to get a discussion about bullies. The discussion that came out of it was zero tolerance in a lot of schools for bulllies... but really, where was the culpabillity of the bully? And what makes the bully...and are those parents proud that their children bullied those two boys? And now in CT, are those parents proud that their children bullied this boy? And all the other stories.
There would be such a breath of fresh air in all these stories if we finally saw someone from that side take their responsibility in this mess.
I guess this is my own frustration with the news that they never seem to pursue that position.


----------



## Potty Diva

Quote:

_Originally posted by Celestial_
*Sometimes I wonder if this is a fall out from the whole "No one can make you feel bad. YOU make you feel bad." and "No matter HOW bad your situation is, you should NEVER act badly in return."

In other words, the blame lies with the person in the crappy situation, and their response to it. Not with the fact that they have been bullied and beaten, and people have allowed it to go on.*
Ya know. I have found this applies to all crimes involving a victim. Rape, theft, bullying. If the victim would have dressed more modestly, acted differently, locked their car/house *this* wouldn't have happened.

When a women is raped, ,it's blamed on her dress.

If a person doesn't lock their door and is burglarized, it's THEIR fault the door wasn't locked, not the theives fault that he has a problem or lack of respect for people.

When a child commits suicide or kills another after being bullied to this point, its THEIR fault it came to this. Not the fault of the school or parents for not instilling respect of others or in the children themselves, and preventing the deaths in the first place.

Very frustrating.


----------



## sohj

It seems we've always been searching for ways to keep blaming the victim.

Yeah, I want to see the bullies' parents. I'd like to see them confronted. If a parent is blamed for her child's misery, why can't we blame the parent for her/his child's bad behaviour?

Oh, whoops, I forgot.....WE DO! But only if the "bad behaviour" is "asking for it" and getting raped and/or bullied.

When I was a child, I thought it was really unfair how the biggest stick my mother would hold over me was "Don't make me look bad". I repeatedly said, "I have free will and, logically, you have no way to control me, therefore you are not responsible for my behaviour therefore you cannot be blamed." (Yes, I really talked like that







: ...I was a snotty little intellectual







.) On the other had, I saw how my intelligence (or lack thereof), good manners (or bad ones), appropriate ambitions (or totally cracked ones), and smart-aleck mouth all reflected on my mother in other people's eyes. It reflected on my father, too, but as quite a few people in his circle seemed to be vaguely afraid and occasionally protective of my father, they would never have said anything about it to him. There is a case to be made for family resemblance ("chip off the old block", genetics, etc.).

Ergo, though it may only be humanity's mythology to allow us to continue the authoritarian social control thought "necessary" for the "survival" of the group from those ancient clan days: WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO CONFRONT THE BULLIES' PARENTS. THEY CAN BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

It is easy to kick someone when they are already down. That's why we blame the victim. If we got the bully, we might have to work to do it.

And, yeah, these pop psychology ideas with a grain of truth ARE contributing to the victimhood.


----------



## Greaseball

When I was in middle school, other kids slapped me, grabbed my body and pulled at my clothes. They threatened to rape me and attempted to purchase sexual favors. This went on in front of teachers and other school employees, who did nothing. One day I tried to tell the principal and he told me that because once I had called one of the boys a "geek" he could not do anything to them. They were just "getting back" at me, and maybe I should think about what I had done, he said.

There was nothing I could do about it there, so I got myself expelled. I transferred to another school in another state, where the same thing happened all over again. This time the teachers said if I hadn't been "such a slut" none of it would be going on. The boys saw something in me that made them act that way, she said, rather than what really happened - they chose to act that way and then to blame the victim.

It's a good thing that when I tried to buy the gun in school, the guy got arrested, otherwise I could have been one of the first school shooters. (Actually, my plan was just to scare people with it.) I think that anytime someone brings a weapon to school - especially if a girl does it - she's in a really desperate situation and needs a lot of people to help and support her. No wonder so many people drop out of school - often, they fear for their lives!


----------



## cottonwood

Oh my god! This is complete insanity! A filthy house may not be pleasant, but it is not necessarily negligence. And it is really a stretch to make out that the mother is responsible for the boy's anguish because she didn't _force_ him to shower, thereby being responsible for his body odor, thereby being responsible for the torture (I think "bullying" doesn't do it justice) that this boy endured from his schoolmates. WHATever.

I have to say a little more about the boy's living conditions. CNN reported: "Prosecutors presented evidence that showed there was barely room to move around her home because of clothes, boxes, papers and other debris that littered the floor. The kitchen was full of dirty dishes and spills and stains. The bathroom floor and the bathtub were covered with clothes, and the toilet, sink and tub were soiled. Prosecution witnesses also described a foul odor. To get an idea what it was like, one officer suggested sticking your head in a hamper full of dirty clothes and whiffing garbage at the same time."

My mom and dad's best friends were a spry, elderly couple who lived in a dump, collected junk, and never bathed (not exaggerating.) They were two of the most delightful people I have ever known, and I loved spending time in their home. Nothing suicide-inspiring there, trust me. My own mother was a packrat and allergic to housework (still is.) I don't think I have ever seen her kitchen clean, except when I did it myself. I can't ever remember having seen her clean a toilet. There are constantly piles of junk, cardboard boxes, magazines, and papers all over the place (and lots of silverfish.) Nothing suicide-inspiring there either.

But get this. I was bullied in middle school, not to the extent that this boy was, but still enough to cause severe anguish and pain, and I can still tell you with all honesty that I would have thought it the height of absurdity if someone had tried to blame any of that on my living conditions.

And horrified if someone were to judge me in the same way for my (sometimes) current living conditions. Now, sometimes my house does look pretty good. I do in fact aspire way more than is probably healthy to be Martha Stewart. But sometimes, for whatever reason, it gets away from me. Yesterday, for instance. Dirty dishes covered every surface in the kitchen. I had made the mistake of leaving water in the sink overnight, so there was a foul smell from that. I'd put old lettuce and broccoli in the compost pail and not taken it out before bedtime, so that reeked too. We have a damaged foundation beneath our house, so this past week we've been dealing with the stench of something that got in underneath our laundry room and died. We also have an exposed section of sewer pipe outside our house (we try to keep it covered with dirt but sometimes it washes away) and *that* smells right now. So basically, our whole house stunk, inside and out, and I had urgent errands to run and couldn't deal with any of it until much later in the day.

Now, also we had made several purchases over the weekend and the living room and dining room were littered with boxes and packing materials, in addition to the kids' toys and dirty dishes that they'd left in front of the TV, and my daughter's pee on the floor (she is two, old enough not to be in diapers all the time, but young enough to still have accidents,) piles of books that I am trying to go through and sort out, pieces of cut paper EVERYwhere (hey, the kids like to cut,) magazines strewn all over (my 2-year-old had decided to have a bit of fun with my carefully stacked piles,) mouse droppings (we live in an old house and are waging a losing battle with the mice,) tons of dirty laundry, clothes on the floor in the living areas, poo in my daughter's potty chair *and* on the floor (she missed,) the toilet hasn't been cleaned in weeks (not a pretty sight,) there is dirt and dead flies around the bath surround, towels and clothes all over the bathroom floor from when I cleaned myself and the kids before going out, being in too much of a hurry to straighten up, and geez, I could go on. It was a disaster. And I don't even work outside of the home 60 hours a week! So who of you here is ready to call the authorities on me? None of you? Wait, you sure? Because you might want to compare my description of my house to the following before you decide:

"there was barely room to move around her home because of clothes, boxes, papers and other debris that littered the floor. The kitchen was full of dirty dishes and spills and stains. The bathroom floor and the bathtub were covered with clothes, and the toilet, sink and tub were soiled. Prosecution witnesses also described a foul odor. To get an idea what it was like, one officer suggested sticking your head in a hamper full of dirty clothes and whiffing garbage at the same time."

C'mon, now. There is no reason to assume that the true problem was the mess, as described, but there is plenty of evidence that there was no one perceptive enough to see the damage that those kids were doing to that boy, or caring or brave enough to do anything about it. For that, maybe the mother *was* as responsible as the school and the other kids. But let's not pretend it's about dirt. That's nonsense.

Yeah, I know, there are people who _habitually_ live in filth that poses a health danger, who don't ever wash their children's clothing, who leave garbage and food sitting around the house rotting for weeks on end, and yes that could be pretty damn depressing and a symptom of neglect. But neither situation above _as described_ has anything to do with _that_ kind of neglect. You are assuming that it was much worse than described. Which you are free to do. But you could certainly be wrong. As could the prosecutors.


----------



## eilonwy

I too live in a wreck of an apartment. Though it's not as bad as when I was growing up. My mother's idea of doing housework was yelling about an impending inspection.







: It doesn't contribute to a healthy soul, but it doesn't cause the misery. Quite to the contrary, it can be very soothing; if you're sitting in a huge pile of laundry, you're protected. It's soft, no one can see you... you're safe.

And Greaseball... I think I'm a little older than you are, so I probably would have been the first school shooter. *sigh* The only thing that stopped me was the fact that I was a total nerd. Thus, when I attempted to purchase a gun, no one would sell to me because they thought I was a goody two shoes and therefore a narc. :LOL I can't understand how anyone believes that bullying cannot, in itself, be a cause for suicide... though I always wondered what happened to happy, popular kids when they grew up.


----------



## Greaseball

Don't the popular kids end up fat and divorced? In my high school where the gun guy got busted, the norm was to marry right after graduation and have a bunch of kids. I'm so glad I didn't last there. It was a total ******* culture. People wore cowboy hats and belt buckles and chewed tobacco. Their homes were filthy, too!









I had never even seen a gun before, so I'm just really, really glad it didn't work out. I'd probably have been disarmed, since some of the people I was trying to "scare" were 6 ft, 200 lb football players and I was 5 ft tall.

Later I transferred back to my home state into the most liberal school around. Boys often wore skirts to school, there was a daycare center for students' babies, and the sex education classes were all taught by other students. The women won the weightlifting competition. The school was so big that no one noticed me and I could be as socially inept as I wanted and no one cared.

Bullying is probably one of the biggest fears I have about dd going to school. I know if she does, it'll happen. Hopefully not severely, but I think it's inevitable and always will be until school employees stop seeing it as just a normal part of school that one has to deal with. If someone worked in an office where he was punched in the face every morning, he would quit! Kids don't have the option.


----------



## 5796

T

today one of my park-mommy friends told me that her son has started preschool. he goes half day for three days a week. He is 3. I asked how it was going and she said that the first couple of weeks were okay but there has been a bit of a set back. I asked 'what caused the set back?" She said, "there is a bully in class." She then said, the bully went after her son two weeks ago and made his life miserable and he is just barely getting back into the swing of it becuase he felt so tormented by the bully.

The bully is three year old. She then said that the mother of the child in question had a beef with the school for labeling her son a bully. My parkmommy friend said the child is totally a bully, the teachers know it is a problem, they keep trying to work with the family, they work with the other kids, they are constantly dealing with him, but the mom evidently, thinks there really isn't a problem. Just focuses on the school labeling of him.

Right there, right there at age 3..why would this get better if the parent's are not getting it?


----------



## AnnMarie

Quote:

_Originally posted by candiland_
*Sorry, I will have to be the lone voice of dissent here.
A 12 yo. *most likely* would not kill himself just because he was being bullied in school. I would bet my last tax dollar that he has had a crappy home life from the very beginning. If all 12 yo's who were bullied relentlessly killed themselves, we would probably have lost 15% of our American population. A strong, loving home life *can* buffer a person from some of that*
This was more than just being bullied. He was tortured by those kids in school, and yes, a child could kill themselves over that.

Having been bullied and teasted often in school I thought of it many times myself. My parents weren't terrible people, school was terrible.


----------



## Curandera

Quote:

_Originally posted by trabot_
*Right there, right there at age 3..why would this get better if the parent's are not getting it?*
Maybe it is the Kindergarten not getting it?

I believe my son is a bully in Kindergarten. He came late last year to this Kindergarten and was a sweet boy who only wanted to play and be loved - but he is smart - and learns quickly. There was an already established clique of boys who were going throught some rough times at home and were mean to my DS - pushing, hitting, excluding - and calling him names because of the Iraq war (we are not living in the US) and we are Americans. After 3 to 4 months of him allowing, albeit apparently wanting to be hit (to get some kind of attention) we told him he was allowed to hit back - but not in the face and at the same time saying "don't hit me!"

Well, this year, most of the old crew is gone, and now DS is the big boy - and he was looking forward to having a new chance to prove something. But the heirarchical structures are so profound in the system here - from the teachers through the kids (they relflect what they live) - that, again, DS was labeled a problem - so he is an outcast. Out of frustration - he hits. It is a complicated problem, which I think is systemic. I'll bet that once that child gets out of that Kindergarten he'll no longer be a bully. I just met another mother whose son was a bully in a former Kindergarten, who is now a gently happy soul in school. He also is a sensitive child, who was frustrated by being labelled at such a young age and not understood.

I really think that labeling children bullies is a scapegoat for people not wanting to look deeper into possible systemic problems, because they may have to change their system. I think if there is bullying going on, one has to look at the situation more intensely - who is bullying, who is being bullied - and how to we challenge the social unit in oreder to help all the kids become more understanding of each other? But what happens IRL? "We have a system - he/she doesn't fit into the system - lets do our best to separate ourselves from the Bully or the strange one who doesn't fit in by bullying him/her out of our sight - so we don't have to be challenged" What needs to be done is to have more forced "group therapy like" experiences in order to get to know the otherness and accept the otherness - not just label and accept thte status quo. Isn't that also as important as academics? Couldn't it be that the kids would be more able to advance in the adcademics if they didn't have to deal with such overwhelming social problems in the school? Maybe regular group therapy classes should also be a part of the curriculum! Teachers complain about the problems and abuse they are experiencing - the kids complain - the families complain - but labeling and walking blind into the social mire with tongues and fists ready with steroetypes of false social norms , only creates deeper and deeper social problems.

OK - I'm just rambling off the top of my head here - don't know if it makes sense.


----------



## Greaseball

I also experienced my fair share of being a bully in elementary school. I saw it as a way I could escape everything that happened at - guess where - school! I was always in trouble for fighting.

Bullies are not always the fault of the parents. It's a fact that overcrowding in prison causes violence - why do we think overcrowding in schools won't do the same thing?


----------

