# "I'll get a court order"



## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

X Posted in Surviving Abuse...

NO NO NO

So...quick recap: My parents were/are verbally and emotionally abusive (with a little bit of physical thrown in there for fun). They hate my DH (mostly because they didnt' pick him and he stood up to them). I have one DS and am pregnant with baby #2.

My mother calls today and asks if they can come visit. DH has made it clear that they must ask him and he'll probably say no...mostly because it's still hard for me to stand up to them. He knows that having them around is hard on me and he doesn't want that kind of energy around our children. Not to mention that we dont' want to take the chance that they'll try to turn our kids against us. So, I told her: Ask DH

Her: Why? We aren't coming to see HIM. He'll be at work. (note: trust me, that's not a coincidence)
Me: Because he's Frankie's father and my husband and it's polite.
Her: I don't understand why I have to ask his permission to see MY grandson.
Me: Because he's Frankie's father and my husband and it's polite.
*skip ahead*
Her: I'll do what I have to in order to see my grandson.
Me: What does that mean and why does it sound like a threat?
Her: It's not a threat.
Me: I'm not stupid. It sounds like a threat.
Her: I'll get a court order to see him. Grandparents have rights in Texas.
Me: Whatever.
*end*

Well, I looked it up and basically:

Quote:

In Texas a court may award a grandparent "reasonable possession of or access to" a grandchild as long as least one biological or adoptive parent still has parental rights. The grandparent must "overcome the presumption" that a parent barring access is acting in the best interest of the child. In order to overcome this presumption, the grandparent must prove that denial would "significantly impair the child's physical health or emotional well-being."
So, all I would have to do is talk about their abusive behavior (some of which has witnesses...) and I'd win right?

I'm a combo of freaked out and pissed off right now...


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## Maluhia (Jun 24, 2007)

You'd totally win.
Fear not. This is a scare tactic.
You would win.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

I have this horrible, hateful email written up and sitting in my drafts... When she said, "court order" it became about protecting my son and my Mama Bear came out.

My bio-dad (her XH) says that she's just barking and nothing will happen.

The thing is, she's secretary at a law office so I KNOW that she's probably been telling horrible stories (lies) about how we're "holding her grandson hostage" (a phrase she's used before).

Not happy.


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## CrunchyChristianMama (Dec 5, 2008)

Don't send the email if it's horrible and hateful. If she decides to take something to court, you don't want that kind of written documentation. If you send her anything, have it be a matter-of-fact email about your concern for your son's well-being. Also state that you are not saying she can't see your son, but that she needs to speak with your husband first so that the best scenario can be set up for that to happen. Then you are not denying "reasonable possession of or access to" your son, you are setting up conditions that are in his best interest.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

So there are 2 things that I want to say.

1. You would win. Grandparent rights don't really mean squat. Now, they would if you had a great relationship with your parents, your ds had been around them for years and had a great, fabulous relationship with them, and then you died and your DH decided your ds was never going to see them again with no real reason. But, thats not the case here, so no worries.

2. Instead of it being a "ask my DH if you can come over" it should be, "DH and _I_ decided that we don't want you around our children." You need to be included in that decision - you need to take ownership of the fact that you don't want them around.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evie's Mama* 
Don't send the email if it's horrible and hateful. If she decides to take something to court, you don't want that kind of written documentation. If you send her anything, have it be a matter-of-fact email about your concern for your son's well-being. Also state that you are not saying she can't see your son, but that she needs to speak with your husband first so that the best scenario can be set up for that to happen. Then you are not denying "reasonable possession of or access to" your son, you are setting up conditions that are in his best interest.

That's really good advice. Thank you.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thyra* 

2. Instead of it being a "ask my DH if you can come over" it should be, "DH and _I_ decided that we don't want you around our children." You need to be included in that decision - you need to take ownership of the fact that you don't want them around.

That's the tough part. I still have trouble telling them no and how I *really* feel...The whole invalidation of my feelings for so many years thing...


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## Earthy Mama (Jun 4, 2004)

I think (just my own ignorant opinion) that those laws are in place where situations like you were dead (god forbid) and your husband refused to let them see your children.

eta: oops, didn't see thyra's post!


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## 4Blessings (Feb 27, 2008)

I agree with pp that you need to tell your mother that you don't want her coming to visit. It sounds like a mixed message when you put it on your husband to give "permission". Makes it seem like you are ok with her visit but only DH is not. If you don't want her to visit then you need to own it too.

Good luck!


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

They probably won't believe me.







They think that he has some "hold" over me and is abusive and that I'm brainwashed.


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## mum4boys (Aug 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thyra* 
So there are 2 things that I want to say.

1. You would win. Grandparent rights don't really mean squat. Now, they would if you had a great relationship with your parents, your ds had been around them for years and had a great, fabulous relationship with them, and then you died and your DH decided your ds was never going to see them again with no real reason. But, thats not the case here, so no worries.

2. Instead of it being a "ask my DH if you can come over" it should be, "DH and _I_ decided that we don't want you around our children." You need to be included in that decision - you need to take ownership of the fact that you don't want them around.

#1 is exactly true and the supreme court heard a case about this a few years ago and it did not come out in the grandparents favor.
#2 excellent advice.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AFWife* 
They probably won't believe me.







They think that he has some "hold" over me and is abusive and that I'm brainwashed.

If you are telling them that YOU can not allow them permission to visit (they must go through your dh), I can see how the came to that conclusion. A grown woman should be able to invite her parents to her home whenever she wishes.

It is never going to work for your dh to be in the middle. Your parents will never accept his word in place of yours. It doesn't matter if they believe you or not, only that they respect your stated boundaries--owned as _your_ boundaries.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AFWife* 
They probably won't believe me.







They think that he has some "hold" over me and is abusive and that I'm brainwashed.

But by saying "Ask Dh" you're feeding into that. "I don't want to see you." is what you need to say, however hard it is. If you can't do that, then you need counseling until you can. It's hard to stand up to abusers. You need a lot of skills they never let you learn.

I'd also recommend hanging up the phone when things start to go bad in the phone conversation. "Oops sorry the soup's boiling over, gotta run!"

So, when she said "Her: I'll do what I have to in order to see my grandson." I would have said "sorry mom, gotta run." It takes two to argue and if you don't engage, she can't.

Have you considered just not answering her calls?


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
If you are telling them that YOU can not allow them permission to visit (they must go through your dh), I can see how the came to that conclusion. A grown woman should be able to invite her parents to her home whenever she wishes.

It is never going to work for your dh to be in the middle. Your parents will never accept his word in place of yours. It doesn't matter if they believe you or not, only that they respect your stated boundaries--owned as _your_ boundaries.

We started doing it this way because *I* got tired of being in the middle. "Tell your DH XYZ" or whatever....and I'm not strong enough to say no.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
If you are telling them that YOU can not allow them permission to visit (they must go through your dh), I can see how the came to that conclusion. A grown woman should be able to invite her parents to her home whenever she wishes.

It is never going to work for your dh to be in the middle. Your parents will never accept his word in place of yours. It doesn't matter if they believe you or not, only that they respect your stated boundaries--owned as _your_ boundaries.

yeah: I couldn't come up with a better way to say it.

Have you sought counseling about all the abuse that you suffered as a child? If not, now's the time!

It's really important that they see that you and you dh are on the same page.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thyra* 
yeah: I couldn't come up with a better way to say it.

Have you sought counseling about all the abuse that you suffered as a child? If not, now's the time!

It's really important that they see that you and you dh are on the same page.

No, not yet. I keep saying I'm going to but it never works out. AND I'm a SAHM to my DS and DH works full time (military) and it would be nearly impossible for him to miss work every week to watch DS while I do therapy.

Yeah, I've made it clear in the past that we're on the same page and they just pull the "brainwashed" card and ignore me.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AFWife* 
No, not yet. I keep saying I'm going to but it never works out. AND I'm a SAHM to my DS and DH works full time (military) and it would be nearly impossible for him to miss work every week to watch DS while I do therapy.

Yeah, I've made it clear in the past that we're on the same page and they just pull the "brainwashed" card and ignore me.

Ok, so find a therapist who is peachy with ds going with you. Or, ask someone to babysit for a few hours a week so that you can go. It's worth doing, and well worth any money that you have to spend to get it done.

If you've made it clear that you're on the same page, stop answering calls, stop engaging in that conversation at all. Say, "I'll talk to DH and get back to you when I have time" and then, if you never have time, you never have to get back to them









Or, use the , "OMG the soups going to explode all over the stove gotta go!" and hang up fast while running somewhere. Or something like that whenever they bring it up.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

I wrote this:

Quote:

It isn't that "Stefan doesn't want you to see your grandson" it's WE (as in, both of us, husband and wife) don't think it's fair that you attempt a relationship with me and Franklin and not Stefan. *I* don't want to visit if that's how it's going to be
Stefan = DH


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thyra* 
2. Instead of it being a "ask my DH if you can come over" it should be, "DH and _I_ decided that we don't want you around our children." You need to be included in that decision - you need to take ownership of the fact that you don't want them around.

What the OP is doing is pretty common for adult survivors of child abuse. At certain points when working through abuse, I've found it difficult to speak to my parents and needed DH to do it for me. It's a protection instinct, rather than a denial of ownership.


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## CarrieMF (Mar 7, 2004)

if you have a hard time saying no over the phone try keeping contact to email.

You could also have scripts pre-wrote up & by a phone for when they do call & ask for stuff.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

How about "I don't appreciate that you threatened me with legal action during our last conversation. I don't trust you now to respect me, my family, or our boundaries if you feel that you can behave that way towards me when your visit is not convenient for us. If you threaten me again like that, I will have to take action to protect my family, and that may mean that you will no longer be welcome in my home at all. I understand that you are eager to see DS, that is understandable. Threatening me is not."

But only if you are prepared to follow through. If you're not strong enough, you need to get stronger. This woman *threatened your family* with legal action because she is so desperate to control things. She's treating you like you're an idiot, that you can't look up the laws, that you should just roll over for her. The more you make Dh handle it, the worse it's probably going to get.

If someone says, "Tell your DH XYZ," you say, "No. You can talk to him yourself if you like, but I think you're being rude and I won't tolerate you talking about my husband that way. This conversation is over."

And I agree, there ARE counsellors that will talk to you with your child present. I do understand about not wanting to go through the base, esp. if your DH has a security clearance (I was raised Air Force), but with this dynamic in your life you really need to get someone who can help you set up boundaries and enforce them.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *VisionaryMom* 
What the OP is doing is pretty common for adult survivors of child abuse. At certain points when working through abuse, I've found it difficult to speak to my parents and needed DH to do it for me. It's a protection instinct, rather than a denial of ownership.

I agree, but that is a temporary measure. It will *never stop* until the person really does actively work through their abuse and can take the power back. Allowing someone else to act as a sheild is a good temporary measure, but it still keeps the power differential in the abusive parents' court. I sure wish I had learned that earlier than I did. :/


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AFWife* 
They probably won't believe me.







They think that he has some "hold" over me and is abusive and that I'm brainwashed.

From my experience, even when you say it, they will still feel he's abusive. I grew up in an abusive house, and my mother has asked many, many times about DH being abusive. He's so gentle, it's hilarious that she even asks. At the same time, abuse has been such an integral part of her life that she can't see through any other lens. FWIW, I've avoided my mom when I couldn't stand up to her and didn't want DH to. We live far away, and mother hasn't been to my house in 6 years. It's easier when you're far away, so you may find it difficult.

I do believe on the issue of grandparents' rights, however, that she won't get very far. Grandparents have limited rights in some states, but that doesn't mean she'll be granted some extensive visitation schedule. If my mother threatened a court order, however, I would cut off contact. I wouldn't want to give her any reason to nitpick at my parenting to push forward.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

On working through it...It wasn't until YEARS after the abuse that I figured out exactly what it was. Even then i didn't deal with it...that's a really recent thing. Like, in the past year.

The abuse took place in high school after my mom got remarried. I was also with a guy that was verbally/emotionally/sexually abusive at the time. My parents loved him and wouldn't let me date anyone else...I actually got yelled at for breaking up with him.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
I agree, but that is a temporary measure. It will *never stop* until the person really does actively work through their abuse and can take the power back. Allowing someone else to act as a sheild is a good temporary measure, but it still keeps the power differential in the abusive parents' court. I sure wish I had learned that earlier than I did. :/

Oh, yes, I completely agree, but it sounds like the OP isn't there yet. It took me a really long time to get to the place of being able to stand up to my mother. It's easy for people to say "tell her yourself," but speaking from the experience of abuse, it's incredibly difficult. In many ways, I've always thought it would've been easier for me if I'd been able to cut off contact completely at age 18 and then be done with everyone.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *VisionaryMom* 
Oh, yes, I completely agree, but it sounds like the OP isn't there yet. It took me a really long time to get to the place of being able to stand up to my mother. It's easy for people to say "tell her yourself," but speaking from the experience of abuse, it's incredibly difficult. In many ways, I've always thought it would've been easier for me if I'd been able to cut off contact completely at age 18 and then be done with everyone.

My parents wanted nothing to do with me right after I got married (nearly 4 years ago) and it was actually kind of nice after the initial pain of "my parents don't love me." When I got pregnant with DS suddenly there they were, like nothing happened. They still dont' think that how they treated me was wrong.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

If you cannot tell your parents no and stand up to them why are you still talking to them at all. get caller ID and be done with it.


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## JBaxter (May 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
If you cannot tell your parents no and stand up to them why are you still talking to them at all. get caller ID and be done with it.

Totally agree! Caller ID is a wonderful thing. I also dont answer calls from people I dont know. I let it go to the machine. If its important they leave a message


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## EmmysMama (Oct 11, 2009)

My MIL is abusive and my DH is also at the stage of working through things right now. He is basically having the same issues you are AFWife, and his mom has mentioned grandparents' rights too.

I would say you need to get caller ID and not answer her calls. Email her so you're in control of what you say, but not cutting her off completely and enraging her. Be very careful how you phrase things over email. If you need to, you might even have your DH hit the "send" button after you write about how YOU have decided such-and-such.

Many hugs.


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## Mountaingirl79 (Jul 12, 2008)

My parents live in Arkansas and have custody of their grandchild, my niece. Well, they actually split custody with her mom because my brother ( the father) is not stable enough to be/have what she needs (and my parents didnt want to never see their grandbaby again..) It is extremely rare to get any kind of protected grandparent rights, and it is a long and expensive process. Unless your parents are wealthy, and have an excellent reason... they won't get very far.

I would suggest a maybe gentler approach to get your point across to them by saying " Dh and I agreed that in order for you to visit both he and I had to agree on the terms. I will talk things over with Dh and one of us will get back to you."
A lot of couples make decisions on a joint basis and no one would come to our house for a stay unless we talked it over and agreed.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mountaingirl79* 
I would suggest a maybe gentler approach to get your point across to them by saying " Dh and I agreed that in order for you to visit both he and I had to agree on the terms. I will talk things over with Dh and one of us will get back to you."
A lot of couples make decisions on a joint basis and no one would come to our house for a stay unless we talked it over and agreed.

We've basically said this before and been told that DH has no right to make decisions.

You can't reason with them. Seriously.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Pretty sure that law was intended for families where there was a divorce and one parent was awarded full custody and is keeping the child entirely away from their other grandparents without cause.

Quote:

the grandparent must prove that denial would "significantly impair the child's physical health or emotional well-being."
to me indicates that there needs to have been a previous positive relationship between the children and the grandparents.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

And, fwiw, your conversation sure looks like you standing up to your mom to me. I think you might be stronger than you realize.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
And, fwiw, your conversation sure looks like you standing up to your mom to me. I think you might be stronger than you realize.

Thank you. I'm trying. I stood up to my brother tonight FTR...DH was sitting there rubbing my shoulder saying, "You're doing great. You're standing up for yourself." I've stood up to my parents a few times in the past...and they blew me off. I told them about the abuse I suffered at the hands of my boyfriend and they ignored me. In fact, when I bring up their abusive behavior they do that "minimizing" thing and tell me that it wasn't a big deal OR that it never happened and it makes me feel crazy.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AFWife* 
We've basically said this before and been told that DH has no right to make decisions.

You can't reason with them. Seriously.

You are not obligated to reason with them, or to explain or defend your decisions. Tell them what YOU have decided (as an individual, or as a couple), and let them accept it or move on.

So they say your dh has no right to make decisions. So what? "That is what we've decided. I'm not going to discuss it further. Is there anything else you'd like to talk about? [they bash dh again] If there is nothing else, I'm going to hang up now. Good bye."


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

I highly recommend the book "Toxic Parents."

Don't put anything in writing.

One of my phrases for my parents is "I can see how you would feel that way, none the less, this is what we've decided to do." And then I keep repeating the phrase no matter what they say. It's a great phrase because it's really hard to argue with.

Good luck and HUGS!


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## treeoflife3 (Nov 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AFWife* 
No, not yet. I keep saying I'm going to but it never works out. AND I'm a SAHM to my DS and DH works full time (military) and it would be nearly impossible for him to miss work every week to watch DS while I do therapy.

Yeah, I've made it clear in the past that we're on the same page and they just pull the "brainwashed" card and ignore me.

You should still call military one source. They'll work with you to find a therapist who will be okay with your child coming to appointments assuming your child can be quiet and well behaved. I went through them for some therapy and brought my daughter along no problems. You'll get something like 11 sessions FREE and possibly more if absolutely necessary.

On top of that, your parents definitely sound toxic. My husband's mother is extremely toxic as well and so he has finally learned to control the relationship. He doesn't answer the phone if he sees it is her if he doesn't want to talk, he doesn't respond to emails if he doesn't want to, and he doesn't talk about things he doesn't feel is okay for the two of them to discuss. Usually HE makes the phone calls or HE makes the plans to visit HER so that he can control the conversation/length around his own desires. They still aren't perfect, but he has a more relaxed relationship now that he feels more comfortable only contacting her when HE wants to and on his OWN time. Sometimes this means they don't talk for weeks/months at a time... sometimes they email back and forth many times in a week. He has the control now though and although he still doesn't particularly like her and always gets pretty emotionally upset before and after visits, it is much better than it used to be.

She also thinks I'm abusive too fyi. I am apparently controlling and just using him for his oh so much money he makes in the military and will leave him soon with everything he has







She blames ME for his being much more distant. She also blames me for his joining the military (actually, he joined to get away from her. true story.) I just bite my tongue when she is within earshot... unless she is about to do something she absolutely CAN'T to my baby... then I tell her to knock it off.


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## Maluhia (Jun 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AFWife* 
No, not yet. I keep saying I'm going to but it never works out. AND I'm a SAHM to my DS and DH works full time (military) and it would be nearly impossible for him to miss work every week to watch DS while I do therapy.

Yeah, I've made it clear in the past that we're on the same page and they just pull the "brainwashed" card and ignore me.

Military One Source like PP said, I think they may even pay for childcare for the time you need to go to the therapy.
AND I think that you can get free childcare on base through the CPC if you are going for Dr. appointments.

USE those perks Mama, your DH works hard for them!


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## Raine822 (Dec 11, 2008)




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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AFWife* 
We've basically said this before and been told that DH has no right to make decisions.

You can't reason with them. Seriously.

Then treat them like they can't be reasoned with!

Part of their control over you is that they can suck you into arguments. They then make you doubt yourself. Remember that it takes two to argue. State what you have to say, but don't respond to their verbal baiting. If you're not in a position to do that (and if you've just now begun to realize the extent of the abuse, you may not be), then I second the idea to get caller ID and screen your calls.


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## mysticmomma (Feb 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AFWife* 
They probably won't believe me.







They think that he has some "hold" over me and is abusive and that I'm brainwashed.

After them, your brain NEEDED washing.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AFWife* 
I have this horrible, hateful email written up and sitting in my drafts... When she said, "court order" it became about protecting my son and my Mama Bear came out.

My bio-dad (her XH) says that she's just barking and nothing will happen.

The thing is, she's secretary at a law office so I KNOW that she's probably been telling horrible stories (lies) about how we're "holding her grandson hostage" (a phrase she's used before).

Not happy.

I havne't read the rest of this thread, but just wanted to say that aside from the fact that I do think you'd win this, if I'm not mistaken nothing in what you posted (or any Grandparents Rights states) says that the grandparents have to STAY WITH YOU or SEE their grandchild for DAYS.

I'm pretty sure that if your parents want to visit your town, stay in a hotel, and go to the park one day and maybe lunch another with your DH and their grandson - AT A TIME CONVENIENT TO YOUR DH - that is facilitating their relationship and they can't say you're holding your grandson hostage.

Maybe you don't have to let them see your son at all, I don't know, but I'm pretty sure that if you do have to, it can totally be on your terms because of the history and their current attitudes and the effect of their visits on you. You can take yourself totally out of it and you don't even have to see them, if your DH is willing to suffer through a visit to a park and a lunch with them and your son.

That way they can't pull their crap on you, but they do get to see your son and hopefully have a good time. And under no law that I know of do they have a right to "alone time" with their grandchild. Your DH can go wherever your DS goes.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AFWife* 
We've basically said this before and been told that DH has no right to make decisions.

You can't reason with them. Seriously.

This may sound extreme, but do you have caller i.d.? Can you just not answer when they call and have your DH call them back to find out what they're calling about? They have no specific rights to even talk to you if it's toxic to you.

I agree with someone else, I think you're stronger than you realize and are starting to stand up to your mom, but if they're that dismissive and they make up rules that aren't real all the time, why are you even still talking to them? If you see they're calling, tellthem it's not a good time to talk and have your DH call back. Or just don't answer...


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## kcstar (Mar 20, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LROM* 
This may sound extreme, but do you have caller i.d.? Can you just not answer when they call and have your DH call them back to find out what they're calling about? They have no specific rights to even talk to you if it's toxic to you.

I did this for a long time. If they (well, now it's just Dad) want to talk to our family, they can talk to my husband. I wouldn't answer.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

The only thing about not contacting them is my mother is a master manipulator. Even yesterday she told my brother all about how mean DH and I were to her. It always happens. I get in a fight with my parents and my mother calls my brother, crying, and gets him to make me feel guilty and stupid. It's, honestly, one of the few reasons I maintain minimal contact.


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## JBaxter (May 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AFWife* 
The only thing about not contacting them is my mother is a master manipulator. Even yesterday she told my brother all about how mean DH and I were to her. It always happens. I get in a fight with my parents and my mother calls my brother, crying, and gets him to make me feel guilty and stupid. It's, honestly, one of the few reasons I maintain minimal contact.

Well if you "know" that phone call is coming from your brother then... script a phone call..

Brother... Hi sister
You... Hi how are you
Brother... I talked to mom
You... I figured and Im not discussing that conversation
Brother... She said
You ... Im not discussing that conversation.. Hows the weather..
Brother ( continuing to press about mom)
You... Oh the baby is crying ... I'll catch you later gotta run nice chatting with you
BYE!


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

I think that you need to start using caller ID and simply not answering calls from family. Then take back control. If you wish your child to have a relationship with your parents, then you, your DH and your child can offer to meet them out at dinner in a restaurant, a public place. You can tell your parents that this is the only time they can see your child this month (or this week or whatever) and if they choose not to come, it's their problem. In public, not only can you leave at any time, but they will likely be on their best behavior. Just make a pact with your DH that the two of you will be extremely cordial, but that if things go sour, you will have a secret password or phrase that you can slip into the conversation that will signal that you must immediately leave. Perhaps you will suddenly come down with diarrhea or something, LOL!

If dinner at a restaurant sounds too expensive, make it Saturday lunch or Sunday brunch, or coffee at a child-friendly coffee shop or something like that. Even a picnic at a park next to a playground would be fine.


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## Mountaingirl79 (Jul 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Pretty sure that law was intended for families where there was a divorce and one parent was awarded full custody and is keeping the child entirely away from their other grandparents without cause.

to me indicates that there needs to have been a previous positive relationship between the children and the grandparents.


Yes exactly....one more point about grandparents...my parents share custody because when baby niece was a newborn, my parents had the baby full time while my brother and his then wife ( the mommy) went thru rehab for opiate addiction. My ex SIL ( if you are following) got clean but my brother didnt. So they divorced and she made plans to move away with the baby. Since my parents provided so, so much into raising my niece, they felt they had rights. And so it was worked out.
I think that is really one of the few rare cases that it happens. So you dont have much to worry about, she can bark all she wants, but your M has not played a role in bettering your childrens lives at all, from the sound of it. ( Correct me if I'm wrong)

You are totally allowed to cut toxic people out of your life.







((( Hugs)))


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

That threat alone would mean a complete cut off. I would change my phone numbers, email addresses and refuse any and all communication. Do not send any nasty emails or contact them in any way.

Keep track of of every incident and a log of any harassment you may encounter.


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## OkiMom (Nov 21, 2007)

The threat would make me want to cut off contact as well. It was a pointless threat because grandparent's rights is a really hard thing to get granted. Bascially you have to be a big part of the child's life and then have the parents say sorry you can't see them anymore at all.
Get caller ID and ignore all the calls from your mom and your brother. Tell her you will talk to her through e-mail only. That way you can have control oven when you are dealing with it. My father is hard to deal with (he keeps telling me how Im wasting my life as well as other things) so I don't call him or answer his calls without DH home and I don't read his e-mails without having DH read them first. I know it sounds bad but my father can make me feel horrible about myself and I already suffer from depression, I don't need his help.


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

Unless the grandparents are supporting your kid financially and raising him they really don't have many rights to visitation.

I feared my kids grandfather would try to pull this when I cut contact but it's a no go unless they are basically caring for the child a majority of the time.


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Pretty sure that law was intended for families where there was a divorce and one parent was awarded full custody and is keeping the child entirely away from their other grandparents without cause.


nope that is perfectly acceptable and alone won't get grandparents visitation.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AFWife* 
The only thing about not contacting them is my mother is a master manipulator. Even yesterday she told my brother all about how mean DH and I were to her. It always happens. I get in a fight with my parents and my mother calls my brother, crying, and gets him to make me feel guilty and stupid. It's, honestly, one of the few reasons I maintain minimal contact.

Then screen his calls too. He too can join the ranks of those who only contact you through your DH. Until you gain some skills in dealing with them through therapy. Which you need, and need to stop finding excuses not to go.


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## Amy0417 (May 12, 2010)

Wow, Mama that's rough. XMIL told me she was going to take me to court and get custody of my child!!!! I freaked but really it was just a scare tactic and usually the courts would not grant grandparents access or custody. Just nuts!

I hope everything works out Mama. I feel so sorry for you that your own mother has treated and does treat you like that. I'm not quite sure how mothers treat their babies like this


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## Otterella (Oct 13, 2007)

Quote:

In Texas a court may award a grandparent "reasonable possession of or access to" a grandchild as long as least one biological or adoptive parent still has parental rights. The grandparent must "overcome the presumption" that a parent barring access is acting in the best interest of the child. In order to overcome this presumption, the grandparent must prove that denial would "significantly impair the child's physical health or emotional well-being."
This is good for you. What it means is that the court will start with the assumption that you have a darn good reason for cutting off the access the grandparents have to your child. The burden of proof is on the grandparents, not you. Furthermore, they don't just have to prove that they are harmless, they have to go so far as to prove that being separated from their grandchild will actually cause him harm. If your mother pushed on this issue, chances are she would never see her grandchild again.


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## Otterella (Oct 13, 2007)

Also, as an abuser, your mother has spent a long time disempowering you. By letting your DH be the "bad guy" you are continuing to let her disempower you. It may be the hardest thing you ever do, but if you want to start empowering yourself, it HAS to be you who stands up to her.


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## RiverTam (May 29, 2009)

You know, you might want to point out to them that if they apply for a court order, you're going to have to explain to the Court why they don't have the access that they want to the grandchildren. You're going to have to explain in open court that they are abusers. It will be a matter of public record.

Then you might want to ask them if they really want it to become a matter of public record that they are abusive.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

DH flat told my mom (apparently she's not sharing any of this with my dad) that if she pursues legal action they will lose ANY and ALL contact. We won't even send photos... I'm behind him. It's ridiculous.

Right now she's refusing to admit that she said "court order" at all.


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## SquishyKitty (Jun 10, 2005)

For grandparents' rights, they have to prove that it would be detrimental to the child for them to not be granted visitation. My mom threatened the same thing, but the problem with it is, they have to have an established relationship and bond already. If they don't, there's really nothing they can do. It sounds like she's talking garbage in an attempt to intimidate you.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AFWife* 
The only thing about not contacting them is my mother is a master manipulator. Even yesterday she told my brother all about how mean DH and I were to her. It always happens. I get in a fight with my parents and my mother calls my brother, crying, and gets him to make me feel guilty and stupid. It's, honestly, one of the few reasons I maintain minimal contact.

Just read your most recent update - good for your husband for being clear and firm with her, and good for you for backing him. And notice the impact it had - she's retreating, denying she even used the words "court order". This is how you have to be: clear, direct, and unapologetic.

As far as your brother calling ot make you feel guilty, again, this comes down to you not fully believing you're doing the right thing and standing confident in your right to respond to this mess in teh way that works best for you. They're YOUR kids and it's YOUR crazy mom (I know your brother has her as a mom too, but this is YOUR stressful situation and no one else can tell you howt o feel - especially since your brother doesn' thave all the info).

One PP said screen his calls too - I agree, but first I have another thought: Would you be able to (or your DH if you can't) first say to your brother :"I know you take mom's version as the truth and you think I'm not reacting right. But I need you to understand this: I have put as much energy into trying to get you all to understand how this impacts my family, and I simply have no more energy for it. And nothing you can say - and no amount of guilt - will give me more energy, it'll just use up even more than I won'thave for my kids. So this conversation is finished on my end. If you want to keep talking to mom about me, go right ahead. But this is what's best for my family and you don't have to like it, but you do need to respect our decision."

And after saying that, if he continues to try to talk to you about it, THEN you simply screen your calls and tell your DH to say "Nope, not going to talk about it." and that's it.


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## JavaJunkie (Jan 16, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SquishyKitty* 
For grandparents' rights, they have to prove that it would be detrimental to the child for them to not be granted visitation. My mom threatened the same thing, but the problem with it is, they have to have an established relationship and bond already. If they don't, there's really nothing they can do. It sounds like she's talking garbage in an attempt to intimidate you.

It's more than just that, even. I looked into this issue when I cut off contact with my parents. If both parents are living and agree that the grandparents should not have contact with the kids, then that trumps all. Nothing else matters. The grandparents' rights usually come into play when 1) the grandparents have had a large role in caring and providing for the child and 2) one of the parents has died and the living parent prohibits contact with the grandparents against the dead parent's wishes(when he/she was alive). Both criteria need to be met, from everything that I read on the issue.


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JavaJunkie* 
It's more than just that, even. I looked into this issue when I cut off contact with my parents. If both parents are living and agree that the grandparents should not have contact with the kids, then that trumps all. Nothing else matters. The grandparents' rights usually come into play when 1) the grandparents have had a large role in caring and providing for the child and 2) one of the parents has died and the living parent prohibits contact with the grandparents against the dead parent's wishes(when he/she was alive). Both criteria need to be met, from everything that I read on the issue.

this is not true. I cut out my DH family after he died and had every legal right to do so. they had no case whatsoever to try to gain visitation. seriously, the only way they have a case is if they have supported the child in question financially for a certain amount of time (as in the child lived with the grandparent).


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rainbowmoon* 
this is not true. I cut out my DH family after he died and had every legal right to do so. they had no case whatsoever to try to gain visitation. seriously, the only way they have a case is if they have supported the child in question financially for a certain amount of time (as in the child lived with the grandparent).

If I understand correctly, the PP wasn't suggesting that grandparents automatically get rights in situations like that, just that that's the bare minimum for grandparents' rights to even be considered by the courts. I'm sure a lot of this is state-specific as well.


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## JavaJunkie (Jan 16, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rainbowmoon* 
this is not true. I cut out my DH family after he died and had every legal right to do so. they had no case whatsoever to try to gain visitation. seriously, the only way they have a case is if they have supported the child in question financially for a certain amount of time (as in the child lived with the grandparent).

I said that both conditions(the 1 & 2 that I listed) needed to be met in order for the grandparents to have any sort of possible case for visitation rights, per what I read on the matter.


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JavaJunkie* 
I said that both conditions(the 1 & 2 that I listed) needed to be met in order for the grandparents to have any sort of possible case for visitation rights, per what I read on the matter.

#1 is not a valid reason for visitation. (even with #2)


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## JavaJunkie (Jan 16, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rainbowmoon* 
#1 is not a valid reason for visitation. (even with #2)

You said essentially the same thing that I did.

Quote:

the only way they have a case is if they have supported the child in question financially for a certain amount of time (as in the child lived with the grandparent).
Which was what my #1 meant. Sorry if that wasn't clear enough.


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## 3 little birds (Nov 19, 2001)

OP, I really feel your pain and can identify with many of the things you have written. My mother is emotionally abusive and was physically abusive while I was growing up. She is also a master manipulator. When we had children, we knew that neither set of grandparents would be permitted to babysit. Of course, they assumed that they would be allowed. Both sets were very angry, but we made sure that we made arrangements for them to see the kids in a very strictly supervised manner. In this way, they couldn't say that we were keeping the grandkids from them. One reason we permitted this was not because of grandparents rights but because sometimes people will use other methods to either retaliate or get what they want-specifically by using DCF or CPS. When my sister was not acting in ways that my mother liked, she called child service anonymously about my sisters son. Repeatedly. Nothing ever came of it, but it was stressful for my sister. My mother has mentioned in the past to my sister that she could call child services on me because we keep a strict (to her) diet-mostly vegan, gluten free. We don't vax, we cosleep, homeschool and breastfeed for years. To the wrong social worker, these things could cause trouble for us needlessly. To clarify, the threat of CPS is not the only or even first reason we allow contact. I have been to therapy and have learned to set boundaries with her, so I feel ok with very strict supervised contact on my terms. I don't answer her calls when I don't want to, I don't engage in toxic conversations with her and I see her only as often as I like, where I like. However, I will acknowledge that she parented me much better than she was parented (truly horrifying and heartbreaking) and I can give her visitation because it is on my terms. Over time, all of the grandparents have come to grudgingly accept our rules and we are able to see each other with a minimum of drama. Obviously, our way won't work for all families and there are circumstances that require a complete cutting off. I just wanted to share what worked for us.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

I do also worry about CPS because, when DS was a month old, my mom jokingly threatened calling them so she could get him. (I had been staying there while DH was in military training...I spent a month with my parents and a month with his so it was even time with the new baby) I FREAKED OUT on her about it and it was never mentioned again... But she knows that they could at least raise a few flags...


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## peainthepod (Jul 16, 2008)

Anyone who "jokingly" threatened me with CPS or a court order would find themselves completely cut off from my family. I would consider that person to be genuinely dangerous and we would no longer have any contact at all. I would also strongly consider trying to get a restraining order against them.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peainthepod* 
Anyone who "jokingly" threatened me with CPS or a court order would find themselves completely cut off from my family. I would consider that person to be genuinely dangerous and we would no longer have any contact at all. I would also strongly consider trying to get a restraining order against them.

DH raised an eyebrow when I told him the first time...but it was never mentioned again (by them) so we haven't thought about it since. Not until I wrote that paragraph anyway.

But my mother would probably deny she ever said it anyway.


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## peainthepod (Jul 16, 2008)

My parents are also toxic (and so we no longer have contact with them) so I can completely relate. The gaslighting (where they do something and then deny doing it, or go out of their way to hurt you and then tell you you have no right or reason to be hurt, or say something cruel and then tell you they were "just joking" or you should "lighten up", etc.), manipulation, and abuse are not going to go away. They won't change. They won't see reason. They won't start seeing you as a person with feelings and needs of your own. You're an object to them, something to play with and abuse at their whim. They want to control you. They don't understand (or refuse to understand) that you don't have to put up with it. It's up to you to show them. You're a grown woman and people don't get to treat you like garbage just because they donated your DNA. Family is supposed to treat you _better_ than strangers off the street. If someone you don't know from Adam started doing this, how would you react? What would you do to protect yourself? That's what you have to do now, to these people who have the audacity to call themselves your parents. I know it's easier said than done, and the first step is the hardest by far. But standing up for yourself will be good for you, for your marriage, and will serve as a fabulous example for your children, who see that Mommy loves herself enough not to let others trample her boundaries and feelings. They learn that no one gets to treat them like dirt, not even family. It's a powerful lesson.

I've been there, mama. It's no fun. Shaking up the family wolf pack hierarchy was the hardest thing I've ever done, but definitely one of the most rewarding. They don't live in my head anymore. I don't care what they think about me. I feel like an orphan, but that's better than feeling like an abuse victim and a bad person.

I agree with others that you should get Caller ID and stop answering the phone when they call. Or you can do what I did--make an all-purpose DO NOT ANSWER contact for your phones and put all their numbers in it, as well as telemarketers and other obnoxious people. That way when the phone rings and you see "DO NOT ANSWER" pop up, you can ignore it and go about your day. You don't know if it was your abusive parents or some guy trying to sell you a mortgage refinance, so there's a lot less guilt when you let it go to voicemail.

You can also make a throwaway email account at Gmail and have any email from your parents' email addresses forwarded there and automatically deleted from your main account's inbox. DH can check the throwaway account for you on occasion, but you don't have to see their letters or know how often they're trying to contact you. Best of all, Gmail archives everything forever, so if you need it for future legal purposes, it's all there.

You're very strong to stand up to these people. The pull of "But they're your parents!" is very very powerful and society frowns on those of us who were raised by abusers and choose to limit or break contact. That's okay; society doesn't live your life and isn't responsible for your and your children's safety. Let them frown.

Keep protecting yourself and your family. You're doing the right thing.


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JavaJunkie* 
You said essentially the same thing that I did.

Which was what my #1 meant. Sorry if that wasn't clear enough.

gotcha!


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## dawncayden (Jan 24, 2006)

s


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## Mama2Bug (Feb 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peainthepod* 
My parents are also toxic (and so we no longer have contact with them) so I can completely relate....

....You're very strong to stand up to these people. The pull of "But they're your parents!" is very very powerful and society frowns on those of us who were raised by abusers and choose to limit or break contact. That's okay; society doesn't live your life and isn't responsible for your and your children's safety. Let them frown.

Keep protecting yourself and your family. You're doing the right thing.










I can relate to and agree with all of this.


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peainthepod* 

You're very strong to stand up to these people. The pull of "But they're your parents!" is very very powerful and society frowns on those of us who were raised by abusers and choose to limit or break contact. That's okay; society doesn't live your life and isn't responsible for your and your children's safety. Let them frown.

Keep protecting yourself and your family. You're doing the right thing.









Thank you for this.


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## j_p_i (Sep 9, 2008)

First of all, so sorry you are going through this! It sounds frustrating and hurtful. Secondly, I haven't read all the posts, but I did read several that said Grandparents rights don't mean squat, and I wanted to caution you that this isn't always the case. When my DH's ex ran off with their two kids, my DH didn't have the money at the time to pursue legal action (this was long before we knew each other). So his parents sued for Grandparents rights, and won. Trust me, these scenarios are very different and there is probably some action you could take to ensure that your parents don't have access to your child, maybe you could consult a lawyer or legal person about this? I don't mean to be negative at all, I just wanted to share that sometimes grandparents are granted rights, and it would definitely be best to be proactive now so that this doesn't happen to you.

So sorry you are going through this, and I'm hopeful things work out well for you!


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## AFWife (Aug 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *j_p_i* 
First of all, so sorry you are going through this! It sounds frustrating and hurtful. Secondly, I haven't read all the posts, but I did read several that said Grandparents rights don't mean squat, and I wanted to caution you that this isn't always the case. When my DH's ex ran off with their two kids, my DH didn't have the money at the time to pursue legal action (this was long before we knew each other). So his parents sued for Grandparents rights, and won. Trust me, these scenarios are very different and there is probably some action you could take to ensure that your parents don't have access to your child, maybe you could consult a lawyer or legal person about this? I don't mean to be negative at all, I just wanted to share that sometimes grandparents are granted rights, and it would definitely be best to be proactive now so that this doesn't happen to you.

So sorry you are going through this, and I'm hopeful things work out well for you!









What most people have said is that Gparent's rights apply in your situation but not in mine. In mine it's both parents deciding, together, to keep the contact very limited. They've been granted contact in the past year (I lived with them for a month after DS was born for crying out loud) so they can't say that we're "holding him hostage" or "keeping them from having any relationship." We just don't let THEM make the calls on when and where they get to visit. That doesn't fall under "Grandparent's Rights" at all. It more falls under "My mother thinks she can still make decisions for me even though I'm 23"







(eyeroll at her not at you)


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## j_p_i (Sep 9, 2008)

That makes sense, thankfully since it sounds as though your parents have made some unreasonable accusations/demands. Stay strong mama.


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## pauletoy (Aug 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
If you cannot tell your parents no and stand up to them why are you still talking to them at all. get caller ID and be done with it.

I haven't read the whole thread but the best thing you can do for yourself is STOP ANSWERING THE PHONE!!!!!


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## arb (Mar 14, 2006)

Even then it is very hard to get grandparent rights. Sadly, I have close family on the other side of this. My uncle & aunt have been cut off from seeing their 2 grandchildren by their ex-daughter-in-law, who has made baseless allegations that they mistreat the children. She is punishing them to spite my cousin, her ex. It is a true nightmare. Every time I see them I want to cry. They carry this pain with them every single day. They have spent a lot of money on lawyers, bent over backwards to meet all of her demands. I know how much my child's grandparents adore her: I can't imagine what they would do if they could never see her again.

Your abusive parents don't stand a chance!! I feel for you.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OkiMom* 
The threat would make me want to cut off contact as well. It was a pointless threat because grandparent's rights is a really hard thing to get granted. Bascially you have to be a big part of the child's life and then have the parents say sorry you can't see them anymore at all.


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