# Does anyone else here just let sleep happen when it happens?



## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

I just don't understand these elaborate routines for bedtimes and naptimes? I've never done it. When my kids were babies, I would walk with them in the sling, but that is the only thing I spent my time and energy on.

My kids just sleep when the want/need too. I enforce quiet time at about 8-8:30, but that is it. They will just fall asleep. Sometimes in the middle of the living room floor. Is that bad? I really don't think it is. My kids as babies were difficult, I was tired, sometimes I didn't sleep much at all. I nursed all night long, my boobs felt like they were going to just fall off from all the nursing, and I felt half awake sometimes. But I just knew that it was a new baby and life goes on... live in the moment.

My kids have absolutely no sleep issues now. I've never dealt with nightmares, constant waking or any freaking out because it is bedtime. My kids willingly go to sleep. Granted they are in my bed at the ages of 3 and 5, but everyone just sleeps.

I just think that during the infant months and baby times, we all need to just focus on our children and their needs. Yes, moms have needs too, but we NEEDED children, we wanted them, we desired them... and now we are complaining????

These hard times DO pass, we just have to take life day by day. My kids were not perfect, sleep through the night 2 weeks, in a bed of their own- type kids. They kept me awake many times and I felt angry at moments.

I don't know the point of this post. I just don't get all these crazy things people do to get their kids to sleep. Why not just start a routine of laying down and going to sleep with your kids and somehow muddle through it? Like I said previously, my kids didn't always sleep great as babies, but I didn't do elaborate routines, I just went to bed. And laid in bed. And sometimes laid there awake, with a baby on my belly trying to nurse, but I made a point to never get up.... it just spelled major trouble in my mind.

Ok, I'm going to end and hope I don't get flamed. I'm hoping there are others that do things like me, I geuss I'm trying to find others who just don't make sleep an issue. Everyone needs sleep, everyone will sleep when sleep is needed.


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

I am so glad to read this!!! My ds is 11 months and he goes to sleep when he wants to. On weekdays when we're the only ones home we play in the living room until I can tell he's tired then we lay down, he nurses, and sleeps there until I go to bed (and then I take him with me). He usually wakes a few times before I go to bed but a quick nursing session and he's back to sleep. On weekends its similar but in my bed, since he won't sleep in the living room with other people around. I had been having second thoughts about this lately, seeing a lot of people swear by routines, but am so thrilled to see I'm not the only one not enforcing strict bedtimes. It works for us


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Quote:

Everyone needs sleep, everyone will sleep when sleep is needed.
I will have to disagree with that comment. Some people/children will fight sleep. They get over tired, over stimulated, et and cannot get themselves to sleep.

Some of our babies had to fight medical conditions that interfer with sleep.

Some of fought PPD (insomnia).

Quote:

Yes, moms have needs too, but we NEEDED children, we wanted them, we desired them... and now we are complaining????
Being sleep deprived is not easy. I am glad you are a better mom and didn't need sleep routines. But not all parents need this.

Also you totally ignore the child's personality. My first fought sleep until I wised up and realize I was asking to for to much sleep (he wasn't the average child) and that he needed a routine to function. He like and needs predictablity even at 10 years old. He thrives better with a pattern to his day. He is all around happier.

My second child has reflux. Predictablity helped (still does) manage her reflux. She has hearing loss (complication of a birth difference). When she was battling ear infection, hearing test, surgery, strangers proding her, odd sleep places, a pattern gave her the security SHE needed.

My last child worried me. She started walking at ten months. I remember she would grab my hand and walk me to the bed so she could nurse to sleep. But in reality that was the ROUTINE she decided was best for her that worked for the both of us.

Some of the people that are trying to get routines are trying to make their homes run more smooth. They are trying to have happier children and be happier adults for their children.

Some are trying to keep emotional conections to their spouce, for themselves and for their children.


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## Beansmom (May 26, 2004)

My dd is only 7 1/2 mos. old, but we have no sleep "routine." In fact, she rarely takes naps. It would be nice if she had scheduled naptime, so I could get things done, but she just won't do it, so I have given up. She sleeps when she gets tired. She sometimes falls asleep in the car or in the sling, or like now she is asleep on my lap. But if I try to move her to a bed she wakes up and won't nap. I have tried napping with her on the bed and she just wants to play. I take her to bed with me when I go to bed and I nurse her right to sleep. She gets up when I do in the morning. I can't believe she gets so little sleep, but she must not require as much as some babies because she doesn't seem tired. When she gets to school age I will try to adjust the whole families routine, so we all go to bed earlier and get up earlier, but I don't see myself enforcing naptime or bedtimes. Maybe it depends on the child though. DD is very laid back and just goes with the flow of everything.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Wemoon, if I could, I'd *love* to do it your way. My natural style is pretty loose. I don't care much for schedules and forcing things.

I have needed to be more routine, however, because my delightful chaos beastie needs it. She does not like to sleep, will keep herself up, and become a crying angry wreck. She has never "just fallen asleep" past the age of 2 weeks. (Steph, I've read how O will fall asleep in the living room and I drool).

Aine gets tired, then she gets overtired, and the screaming will start. She isn't happy when she's tired, but she will not sleep if she can help it. So we "help" her. We respect her timing - her bedtime is 9-10ish because that is when she falls asleep the best - but we also make an effort to encourage sleep.

In my fantasy world, we'd do it much more like Wemoon.


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## InochiZo (Aug 17, 2004)

Quote:

then she gets overtired, and the screaming will start. She isn't happy when she's tired, but she will not sleep if she can help it. So we "help" her. We respect her timing
My DS is the same way. He would not just fall asleep. He gets very upset. He doesn't have a regular nap schedule. He does seem to get sleepy at the same time every night and wake up around the same time every morning. Even though I work and DH brings DS in for 3 nursings, we try to honor his sleepy/cranky times. It would be nice if his naps were at regular times but he hasn't found times to be regular. Good thing my schedule can be flexible or he can take a bottle some times.


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

I've always pretty much let DD fall asleep when she wants to. There have been times where I've been so sleep deprived that it was rough, but I'm glad that I did it. The only times that I've ever tried to "redirect" her sleep were the times when she had her days and nights completely mixed up. It took a lot of sleepless nights and a lot of work, but I encouraged her to stay awake during the day so that she could sleep at night. There were times when it was blindingly difficult, and if I didn't have the luxury of being a SAHM, or if I'd had more than one child to care for, I honestly don't know how I would have coped. But that was really my biggest challenge re: sleep, and I know that I'm very lucky and that my DD is easy and a good sleeper. I did what worked the best for us, but I know that it may not have worked for other babies.

As far as "routine" goes, I've never been able to keep up a routine for routine's sake, but when I think about it, yeah, I guess I do have some kind of routine, but it's loose, and DD doesn't really depend on it to fall asleep. It just is kind of the way we do things. In the evenings, we eat dinner, clean up the kitchen while DD plays, and then she gets her bath and pajamas, and goes to bed. But there are nights that we eat dinner early, or we skip her bath, or she stays up and plays, or we read an extra story, etc., and when that happens, it doesn't throw off our schedule at all. Her bedtime varies anywhere between 7:30 and 9:00, and she wakes up anywhere from 7am to 9am every morning. Sometimes she naps a lot during the day, and sometimes she takes a short nap (or two). There's so much variance from day to day. But, I do know people who swear by bedtime routines and say that they help so much.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I've never set up a schedule or a routine. He almost always fell asleep easy at the breast. Those rare times when he did not fall asleep while nursing but was fussy we would sit on the exercise ball and bounce with him. If he was sleepy then, he'd be out within a few minutes. My older ds used to just go and go until he crashed. He never just laid down and slowly drifted off to sleep. One second he'd be running around the house, the next minute he'd be face down and butt up wherever he happened to land. LOL


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## Parker'smommy (Sep 12, 2002)

The running joke with me, especially when we see a child sleeping in a stroller or sling or whatever while out or when we see a friend's child fall asleep on the couch or floor OR even hear stories of kids falling asleep at the dinner table is "wow, that's what normal kids do when they get tired....they sleep!!!"

I totally get what you are saying Weemoon, and I agree. And I basically did that when ds was a newborn. I let him sleep when he was tired and didn't schedule anything or do any routine. Then something happened and all of a sudden I had this child that FOUGHT SLEEP!!!!!!!

For instance, if I let him, and this has happened on an odd night when something was going on that stopped us from going to sleep earlier, he will stay up ALL NIGHT LONG! THis kid has stayed up until past 1 am before......he will not just pass out from sheer exhaustion. He needs the sleep obviously - he is cranky, whiny, but will not just choose to sleep. I have to "parent him to sleep".

I don't think you can "force" a child to sleep. YOu just can't. If they don't want to, they won't. period. But you can do things to help them get ready for bed and go to sleep willingly- parenting them to sleep.I think Dr. Sears talks about this too in his books. That is what our routine is...helping him to get ready to sleep, because left to his own devices...he will not sleep. He will obviously need the sleep and be totally overtired and not sleep. He is just one of those people that doesn't listen to his body in terms of sleep.

I also got our routine and "bed time" by watching him closely and watching his cues and then went from there. It works out nicely for us though. We wash up, do pjs, stories, prayers, and then I usually nurse ds to sleep. Plain and simple. But without this routine, he just stays up!!!

I have no nightime plans for the new baby coming, I will follow his/her cues and let them sleep when tired. But if they are obviously tired and are having trouble falling asleep I will do what I need to do to help them reach the state of sleep -whether that's lying down with them, nursing them, rocking them, slinging them, whatever it takes to help them.


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Wemoon, perhaps I'm reading into things, but your post sounds a little... condensending towards moms who do routines.

I didn't have a routine for Orion until about a month ago. I HATE having one now. I'd rather just see we're tired, scoop us up, and go to bed. And if he would go to bed at night, instead of fighting so hard he goes to bed super late and therefore isn't tired the next night until 4 hours later than the night before, until we're sleeping from 8am-8pm I wouldn't have one either. In fact, I have no idea if the routine I'm doing is even helping. But I'm desperate. He HAS to start sleeping at night. I have to start voch rehab.

Quote:

Why not just start a routine of laying down and going to sleep with your kids and somehow muddle through it?
And well, isn't that a routine of sorts? And that's what sounds so judgemental in your post (and perhaps because of our sleep drama going on I'm reading into it too. I admit that may be a possiblity). I tried that with Orion. Took him to bed when he/we/I was tired. He'd crawl around and play for HOURS, or scream and cry until I took him back into the living room. It didn't work. I couldn't handle him crawling everywhere on the bed that isn't on the floor, trying to bang the mirror over our bed, trying to spill over my water, ect when I was exhausted. (and no, there is no way we could put the bed on the floor, we have no room for our VERY big wooden bedstand).

I am SO jealous of you! I wish it would work for us. But it doesn't. *Sigh*


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

I'm glad I didn't get a huge hanging







I'm not trying to be judgmental as it is something that I don't like to see on the boards, because I could never know anyone elses situation.

I geuss I'm just talking about what goes on in my house, trying to find others that do it like me, and trying to understand why such elaborate routines are necessary for some families?

Thank you everyone for your thoughts, obviously all kids have different temperments, and I just have not had the experience of living with a child that won't go to sleep.

And I'm sorry to those who thought my OP was judgmental. I was totally rambling off the top of my head and didn't really think any of it made any sense! I'm glad to see there are others that can do sleep like we do in my house.


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## savannah smiles (May 4, 2004)

I did a similar non-routine type of thing when my dd was younger. When she was a baby, she nursed to sleep and when she was a small toddler I cuddled her down. For whatever reason, around 27 months, cuddling her down didn't work any more. She just wouldn't go to sleep that way or it would take up to 2 hours for her to fall asleep amidst constant flopping around and whining. After a month or two of that, I decided something needed to change because bedtime was getting to be a negative experience so we introduced the typically "read a story, brush your teeth and go to bed routine" which really worked. At first. After 6 months of that routine working great, it no longer does so I'm trying to figure out what to do next.

So, in a nutshell, I've tried to be flexible and adapt to her nighttime needs of the moment even though I often feel at a loss when her needs change. She's one of those kids who gets hyper when she gets tired so I have to read her signals and do our "routine" before she gets too wound up.

Wemoon, it sounds like you have a great set-up in your home in terms of sleeping. I'm happy such a relaxed approach is working for you!


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## fyrflymommy (Jan 20, 2003)

We've never had a bedtime routine and my dd is almost 3. We just go to bed when we're tired. We do have somewhat of a nap routine, though.

fyrfly


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

We do have a routine with our youngest but I wouldn't so much call it a sleep routine as a bedtime routine - gets him wound down and knowing that it's almost time to go to sleep. He LOVES his routine, he takes his bath (every other night), gets his jammies on, gets a cup of milk and drinks it while we read a book, brushes his teeth and then goes around and turns out lights. He likes going through each step and knowing what is coming next.

But then we all sort of hang out until he gets tired and wants to nurse and go to sleep. We don't really have a set time to do the routine either - it sort of depends on the night and if he's napped that day and how long. I can tell when he's starting to get tired and so we start the routine then.

Kitty


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## awnja (Sep 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty*
But then we all sort of hang out until he gets tired and wants to nurse and go to sleep. We don't really have a set time to do the routine either - it sort of depends on the night and if he's napped that day and how long. I can tell when he's starting to get tired and so we start the routine then.

Yeah, that's us too. Its just a series of events that help us avoid that pre-bedtime crankyness. Otherwise she fusses because she's getting tired, I try to nurse her and she's not ready so then I feel like we're just struggling. DOING something with her is better for us both. And at the end of the day I'm not too creative (I've been trying to entertain her almost all day- just her and me all day) so regular activities help me just as much as her. After the "routine," even if slightly out of order, she just gets sleepy, rubs her eyes and eventually looks to nurse. I nurse her and she's out. Usually 8:30. She decides the exact time. Now getting her to STAY asleep is another issue, but she's only 5 mos.

julie


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

well ds is only 6mo but we do not use a routine or schedule of any kind. he sleeps when he's tired..usually he makes his own routine and has been a pretty good sleeper. he goes through phases though.

for intance yesterday he napped in the morning twice for an hour or more each then took another nap at around 8pm..then he got up from 10-1am to play. we pretty much just go with the flow so far


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## MamaToLance (Jun 26, 2004)

It is much the same at our house, no routine to speak of. Most nights I have my little one (8 mos.) in jammies around 7, but that's not set in stone either, and he usually plays until I can tell he is tired then I nurse him on the sofa, he falls asleep in my lap, I'll watch some tv or sit and talk to DH, then we go to bed when we are ready. He'll sometimes wake before we go into bed, but usually gets right back to sleep in 15 or 20 minutes. I'm not one who has had to rely on routine to get him to sleep, but I can see how others might need to, I also have seen/heard other parents using a rigid routine and it is more about what the parents want/need than what the child needs, and I don't want or need anything but to have a happy baby, and my little one is perfectly happy just falling asleep when he's ready, so this works really well for all of us. Granted I do not have any other children to get to bed at this point, so I don't have to worry about multiple bedtimes, etc.


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

I think I sort of know what you're talking about. I also think I've done things more or less the way you have, and sometimes it included coming up with ways to help dd sleep, but it wasn't a formal plan tinged with desperation about sleep in general. I definitely didn't get "my kids and I are perfect re: sleep" from your post. I got that you dealt with the vicissitudes and it all turned out all right in the end, without top-down planning. Is that right?

Anyway, my interpretation of why these things are such an issue is that we live in a society seriously messed up in ways revealed by sleep. It seems to me like most adults around me (including me) have something that could be described as a sleep disorder. In my case, I just don't sleep at normal times, and I dread going to sleep. But for far more people, lightly awakening and then quickly going back to sleep -- something that should be easy, adaptively speaking -- is impossible. They wake up after a night of nursing completely exhausted. Most of us were taught, violently, to sleep alone in cribs, and seriously deprived of the physical contact we needed. So some people find it really hard to sleep without lots of personal space. Some people are very easily awakened by noises or movements, the kind they never got to experience in their quiet, darkened rooms, sectioned off from the rest of the family.

There are other structural problems. For example, when you have to get up, get your kid(s) to daycare, and be at work all day, then go home and do everything family-related and then have your only hope of "alone time" with your spouse be after the kids are asleep, you aren't going to get enough sleep. This cultural pattern creates a sense of pressure around sleep. And, in our society, babies almost never get the vicarious movement and energy discharge they need. (This is what bedtime routines involving swaying, rocking, walking, bouncing, massage, and the car make up for.) Seeing their distress creates a sense of anxiety to do something about sleep.

None of this requires that a top-down routine or sleep training be instituted, IMO. But others would disagree.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Erin, I found so much of what you said very interesting. I never thought about our society's issues around sleep in those terms but it makes sense. I don't think there is anything at all wrong with having a routine. I think the problem comes when parents impose completely arbitrary sleep times on children. Not all children need to go to bed at 7 pm and not all children can stay up until 10 pm, no matter how much their parents may try to force them to. If you recognize and follow your baby's cues about when they are tired and need to sleep, there's certainly nothing wrong with doing things to help them like reading stories quietly or rocking or nursing or whatever as long as it is not traumatic to the child.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Wow Erin, what a great post! I agree. I wanted to post something about sleep disorders, but I wasn't really sure how to approach it. I used to have HUGE issues with anyone touching me while I was sleeping. Sleeping with my kids has me over that issue, I now love to cuddle and have my kids right next to me while sleeping. It took awhile, this only recently became what I love within the last year or so.


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## mamarhu (Sep 12, 2004)

My kids and I are in the process of deschooling - and sleep schedules are sort of an issue right now. Dd (9) seems to be on the night shift - sleeps from 4AM till 2PM, on the family room floor, if I don't interfere. She loves the alone time, quiet house etc. and spends the time reading, writing, playing computer games, watching TV. Even sometimes cleans the house while I sleep! There isn't really any problem, except I feel guilty - like I wouldn't want my Mom to know about this. And Mom is moving in with us in 2 weeks! Mom is tentatively OK with the unschooling thing, but I bet this will be over the top to her (she's 85, and I respect her wisdom and experience, but this will be a new one to her).

So this is the question: should I try to mold Dd to fit society's (Mom's) expectations? Or do I trust her to know what is right for her (I really do), and defend her freedom to Mom? I am tempted to weasel out of it by telling her to stay in her bedroom, and maybe no one will notice (lol). Any suggestions?


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

mamarhu, I stated earlier my kids have a routine because that is what they needed to be happy and healthy. BUT!!!!!!!! I here is what I didn't say, LOL. At one point in time my son's bed time was at midnight. The way we worked if we wanted to spend time together this not-normal bed time was the only way to do it.

We are long past the days of "Early to bed Early to riase". We are a 24-7 society.

There has been studies that show people are at their best at different times of the day.

There is also studies that show teens are more nocturnal. I don't have them handy but I bet you can google them.

I would respect your daughter's pattern if she can respect other's sleep needs, is healthy, and not breaking rules when she is up.


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## thistle (Aug 10, 2002)

We pretty much let dd go to sleep when she goes to sleep. SHe is 2.5 and a nightowl, espec if she hasn't had the chance to burn off enough energy during the day. DH & I do "encourage'" bedtime, by going to bed ourselves, putting the gate up in the hall and telling dd she can play in her room if she doesnt want to sleep, but mommy & daddy are going to bed. (dd's room is next to ours so she has full access to us, just not the rest of the house) The quieting will usually get her to bed within 30 mins or so.

Of course this method means dh& I don't get lots of alone time together, but she won't be 2.5 forever.

I often do the same with naps. I generally sleep from about 11 or 12 to about 4 then get up and do stuff around the house, so I NEED a nap. I put the gate up when dd is showing signs of napping and dd joins me when she is ready.

I won't say there are NO struggles. SHe is 2.5 so I get the "I don't want it to be dark outside" tantrum on occasion. She will occasionally object to me putting up the gate (even though she can easily climb over it). But all in all, it isn't bad.

thistle


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## FireWithin (Apr 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom*
I will have to disagree with that comment. Some people/children will fight sleep. They get over tired, over stimulated, et and cannot get themselves to sleep.

Being sleep deprived is not easy. I am glad you are a better mom and didn't need sleep routines. But not all parents need this.

Also you totally ignore the child's personality. My first fought sleep until I wised up and realize I was asking to for to much sleep (he wasn't the average child) and that he needed a routine to function.

Some are trying to keep emotional conections to their spouce, for themselves and for their children.


I am in agreement with Marsupialmom. DS becomes hyper when overtired. That said, I have learned as he has gotten older, to wait until he is showing signs of tiredness. Maybe he is getting clearer, maybe I am getting better? I do know that I am less sleep deprived, simply because DS is maturing into sleep at 18 mos.
I also found that a predictable routine helped me. My evening I was frazzled and exhausted. A routine helped me go the motions, and be loving.


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## Feathere (Jun 20, 2003)

Hi Wemoon and posters,
interesting topic! I didn't you sounded judgemental of moms who have a routine--just maybe 'in awe' int the sense that you just don't get the need for them. Which is great, if you don't need a routine.

At our house, we have two 'rules' of life: sleep when you're tired and eat when you're hungry. They sound so simple, but it is amazing how when I follow the rules I personally am a healthier, happier person. It's because I am listening to my body's needs and responding. With kids, sometimes you have to help them learn how to listen to their bodies. It sounds unnatural bc kids could be more attuned than us, but--they get distracted by the big new world. So a routine can help ground the child who is so distracted/overstimulated. We have a bedtime routine that is short and helpful to all--bath, pjs, book, nurse, bed. It happens around the same time each night, but we don't watch the clock, we watch dd for signs of sleepiness. Lately (she's 17 months) she signs for 'bath' when she is ready to go to bed--the bath is a great cue for her and for us.

Being totally honest, I have to say that I am more a slave to routine than dh, because I like the sameness of it. He would let dd fall asleep on the floor if she wanted, but I don't really want that. I like to tuck her in!


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wemoon*
I'm glad I didn't get a huge hanging







I'm not trying to be judgmental as it is something that I don't like to see on the boards, because I could never know anyone elses situation.

I geuss I'm just talking about what goes on in my house, trying to find others that do it like me, and trying to understand why such elaborate routines are necessary for some families?

This is an interesting thread. My DS's routine is more for me than anyone else. He does fight sleep and seems to welcome the bedtime routine because he always goes right to sleep (with few exceptions). Due to teething pain, for the last several months (he's 9mo and has 9 teeth), he may go to bed at 8:15 and then get up at 9:15, but at least I can count on him going to bed at 8:15. I work FT and am going to school, and I have to have an hour in the evenings that I can count on to do school work.

So in my case, DS goes to sleep better with a routine (he fights sleep at all other times, usually), but the routine is really for my sake, because I have to have something I can count on in my current situation.

Thinking wistfully of all the things I'll do when my degree is finished....


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Mamarhu, We are deschooling with my 13yo ds. I agree with the PP who said teenagers are more nocturnal. My ds has been staying up later and later. I used to get upset about it, thinking it was wrong for him to stay up late. Then, I thought, why? He doesn't have to be up at any particular time. We don't have any kind of schedule at all unless we have a doctor's appointment or something like that. I remember when I was a teenager and a young adult (early 20s) I would stay up late and sleep half the day. Sounds like just about every teenager I've ever heard of. There was a time when I thought I would never be able to get up early for a job. But, as I matured my sleep patterns have changed naturally. I find myself now at 34 having a hard time staying up past 10 pm and sleeping past 7 or 8 am. So, I would say let your dd follow her own schedule. Tell your mom you appreciate her concern but she is your child and it is her life and you trust her to know what she needs. Don't waste time and energy "defending" anything. Politely ask your mom to butt out. If she doesn't, then you have another situation.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

We don't have a routine. Ds gets a bath every other day or so, but not at bedtime, usually. I aim for 2 naps a day, but sometimes it doesn't happen, and sometimes he sleeps for 3 hours each time! I just wait until he acts tired: fussing, wailing, eye-rubbing. Then we booby to sleep and I sneak away.

ITA with our society's sleep issues. My mom slept with me at least in the room when I was a baby and I was never afraid of sleep. Even when I was older I always came into my parents' bed (a full with 3 of us! I remember loving the valley between their two big bodies.) I just go to bed when I am tired and wake up whenever. I have never been tough to wake up or go to sleep. Insomnia happens maybe 5 times a year for me. Dh is totally the opposite - he always fights sleep and denies he is tired 1 minute before he passes out. (He was a crib and bottle baby.) It is like being with a little boy that way. He suffers from insomnia and cannot nap b/c he can't just wake up - he will be morning crabby again. Also, I just lay down in bed and think for a few minutes, or sometimes a 1/2 hour, and eventually drift off. Dh has to trick himself into sleep with a movie or sometimes a book, but could never just lie there.

I am trying to teach ds my way of sleeping. So sometimes he is not totally tired but I want him asleep so I can do something. I just have to be patient and lie with him in bed and shhh him and eventually he goes to sleep. If he is really not tired, though, we get up and do something else. I don't want to force it, but rather coax it.

Next kid will probably demand a routine.


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## polka123 (Nov 27, 2003)

we don't really have a routine except @ bedtime.
We go to sleep (co-sleep) about the same time each night.
DS is kinda high-needs so when he was itty, whenever he slept was great.
He does not sleep much during the day.


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## Mrs Dimples (Apr 17, 2004)

See, in my house, if I were to follow what came naturally to ME, we would have no bedtime routine. However, I am not in charge, lol! My son goes to bed at roughly 6:30 every night. This was NOT my idea. I don't go to sleep until around midnight, give or take. If I were trying to make things easy for myself, I would just let him stay up and put him to bed closer to my own bedtime so I might actually have a chance of getting some consecutive sleep! But he has very clearly indicated that he is tired this early. Of course, there are nights when he stays up later, sometimes as late as 8:00. And then if I'm lucky the next day he takes a longer nap to make up for it. But not usually. I just have a child who HATES to nap, so he takes one nap a day (usually) of about 1 hour. He just prefers to do his sleeping at night. Since this is his preference, I feel it is important to do everything I can to make sure he gets as much sleep as possible at night. He won't make up for it during the day. These conclusions were arrived at through much trial and error and observation of my unique baby. I am glad your family has a system (or lack thereof, lol!) that works for you. But it would not work in my house. It worked when he was little and would just sleep in the sling, or on the ground, or wherever. When he got to be about 7 months old, he got very particular about where, when, and how hw would sleep. So I had to adjust...and I am sure that now that I have written this great tome here, he will this very night completely change his sleep requirements and I will have to adjust all over again!







:


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilli78*
Dh is totally the opposite - he always fights sleep and denies he is tired 1 minute before he passes out. (He was a crib and bottle baby.) It is like being with a little boy that way. He suffers from insomnia and cannot nap b/c he can't just wake up - he will be morning crabby again. Also, I just lay down in bed and think for a few minutes, or sometimes a 1/2 hour, and eventually drift off. Dh has to trick himself into sleep with a movie or sometimes a book, but could never just lie there.


My X was the SAME WAY.... BUT, I think his issues stemned from much more than sleep issues as a child. He had a very rough childhood with physical, mental and sexual abuse. He can never go to sleep unless he drinks alcohol. He also found that calcuim supplement shortly before bed helped him when he was actually trying to quit drinking.

So I agree that childhood problems, whether it be something like putting your baby off alone to sleep or something worse like the abuse my X suffered will cause problems with sleep.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mrs Dimples*
I am sure that now that I have written this great tome here, he will this very night completely change his sleep requirements and I will have to adjust all over again!







:

:LOL Isn't that how it always works?


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## powchow (Sep 20, 2004)

IT is so nice to read your message. I have gotten a little greif from family about the way I have not made sleeping too big of an issue, in fact, it wasn't my choice, routines seemed appealing, but not my little daughter, she never slept much as a baby. I can count on one hand how many times her naps have laste 2 hours, I am lucky if I get an hour to myself without her waking at all, and she is almost two. I too nurse all night, and some nights, I think I will go crazy and my boobs hurt and I am frustrated and angry, but nursing is absolutely the only thing that calms her down anymore enought to sleep and weaning her is not an option. Most nights are pleasant enough for me to get a good amount of sleep and not having to work right now makes it possible for us to sleep in, but she really just isn't a good sleeper. I am hoping that if I provide alot of comfort with nursing during the night and naptimes, she will eventually grow out of it. Please tell me there is an end to it, and I will be happy to provide as much comfort as she needs. I love nursing her, and I love sleeping with her, and I don't see a huge problem with our situation (not speaking for my husband of course, but like you said, babies are only babies for a short period of time). I agree that we shouldn't complain, I had years with my husband alone (14 to be exact) before we had a baby, so I just don't sympathize with him too much, plus sleeping with your baby is the best, and makes me feel close to her. well, sorry I rambled, but I finally read a post that I could relate too. Reply if you'd like.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Powchow You sound like you are doing a wonderful job of providing comfort and your DD WILL grow out of this phase. Two year olds especially need alot of love and security. They are ready to start branching out into the world and need to know that their mama is right there beside them. You sound like you have a great attitude about sleep and making sure your DD knows that you are there for her.

I'm in MN too







Around the Mankato area, where abouts are you?


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## Losgann (Jun 24, 2004)

and I regret it.

My ds had no bedtime, he would let me know when he was ready to go to sleep and I would lie down with him in my bed when he was ready to sleep. He just outgrew all of his 'sleep issues'-screaming for hours at bedtime, not wanting me to leave for private time with hubby, waking up constantly to check I was still there with him.. He's 7 1/2.

I didn't learn from that though, I did the same thing with dd and now we are having a HORRIBLE time getting her to bed and waking up on a schedule for school. She's fighting it tooth and nail, she's miserable and we're miserable. She's 4.

I guess if you're planning to homeschool it wouldn't be such a huge issue. Just remember you're setting him up for the future and if your situation changes later (school, daycare, playgroup, whatever) even years from now it's going to take reteaching.. Much harder when they older!!

If I ever have a third one :crossing fingers:







he/she will have a set bedtime from the beginning!


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

With both of my kids, they are now in Headstart preschool, they are ages 3 and 5. They used to stay up till about 10 and wake up at 8-9. I told them the night before school started that they will probably want to go to sleep sooner because they will have to wake up earlier, well, they didn't really listen :LOL and I woke them up earlier. The next night they were out by 8 and then up at 7:30. Maybe I just have easy kids as far as sleep goes???


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## mcsarahb (Aug 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Parker'smommy*
The running joke with me, especially when we see a child sleeping in a stroller or sling or whatever while out or when we see a friend's child fall asleep on the couch or floor OR even hear stories of kids falling asleep at the dinner table is "wow, that's what normal kids do when they get tired....they sleep!!!"

Yep, that's our favorite joke, too. Our babe has always fought sleep, from about week 2. She very rarely falls asleep nursing, and must be bounced, rocked or walked to sleep for every nap and bedtime. We don't have a routine at all because it all depends on her cues - we have to catch her at just the right time or she'll be shrieking with exhaustion for ar least 15 minutes.

I wish I could just lay in bed and she'd eventually fall asleep, but I'd rather bounce her for five minutes than listen to exhausted sobs for an hour...







Too close to CIO in my opinion.

Maybe my next one will take after Wemoon's kids...one can only hope!









Sarah


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## kathipaul (Sep 24, 2004)

I am so glad you wrote you original message because I have been thinking about this issue with regards to my 18 mo dd. We also just let sleep happen and it works pretty well for us except when I am tired before her. We are working on getting up at a more regular time in the am and being home after lunch so that she could try to get into a routine of a regular nap time. But, I am not forcing it. My dd has the personality that requires that I go with her flow or she throws a fit. Not that she is running the show but she is really a lot like Dr. Sears fussy baby Hayden and needs a lot of attention to her needs. I think you just have to do what works for you but one thing I have noticed is that a lot of the moms who have their kids on bed time schedules, even the stay at home moms like me, complain about how early their kids get up. They schedule bedtime at 8pm or so and the kids get up 10 hours later at 6am. That is really early for me! I am glad my dd goes to sleep later so that I can sleep later.

I say what works for you is what you need to be doing. Americans are too concerned about doing what they think is "right" without really thinking about the issue with a critical mind. Bully for all you moms, and dads, who are following your heart and your head.


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## powchow (Sep 20, 2004)

Hey Wemoon, I am in Minnetrista, around Lake minnetonka, Back in the area, just moved back near family from Colorado. Missing the mountains. Thanks for the wonderful words of encouragement, I tell you, I don't hear much of it, and am really unsure alot of times. Afriend of mine from colorado told me to come here for reassuring advice, and I feel so much better about my decisions since I started reading posts. Thanks again. Minnesota is beautiful isn't it?


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Our children sleep when they are ready for it. There are no bedtimes imposed in our house. We have encouraged them to understand their bodies needs regarding sleep and rest, as well as how to understand when their needs change. (Example: we are often up late, but since we have recently added early morning obligations one day a week to our lives we discussed how we need to adjust the sleep we get to accomodate that..) Not everyone has the same sleep needs, and that has always been obvious to me. It's an issue of respect also I think. Smiles


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## Attila the Honey (Mar 15, 2003)

As someone who has a 'sleep fighter', will you please clearly explain HOW you encourage your babies to understand their body's need for rest? I want to do this, I don't know how.

I have a 10.5 month old that just will not lay down and sleep on her own. She won't even fall asleep in my arms. It's a fight. She starts showing signs of tiredness about 7:30pm (rubbing eyes, yawning, laying her head down) but when I allow her to just go to sleep on her own she's still awake at 11pm and totally wired. It starts with the classical signs of sleepiness, and slowly morphs into screeching, crying over everything, whining, and hyperactivity. She refuses to eat, and squirms, kicks and howls if I try to sling her or rock her. I try to sing to her and that's actually funny, she sings along and drowns me out! (LALALALA) :LOL

If I try to lay down with her, it's the whole thing I just described, only horizontal.

Routines haven't helped, the only thing that helps bring about sleep that doesn't include alot of crying and frustration (for all of us) is a car ride. I am getting mighty tired of driving around every night, and I worry that it's not doing a thing to help establish a healthy sleep schedule.

The good news is that once she's down, she sleeps soundly for a good 11 hours.

I am SO jealous of those of you that don't understand the need for a routine and think it should just be simple. How I wish it were simple for us. We are laidback and not routine-y in every possible way, but the sleep situation is really awful in our house.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

PowChow, I love Minnesota, lived here all my life









Attila







I really have no advice, and I'm feeling like I should stop trying to give advice to others with sleep issues because I really can't comprehend the magnitude of it.


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## mcsarahb (Aug 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Attila the Honey*
As someone who has a 'sleep fighter', will you please clearly explain HOW you encourage your babies to understand their body's need for rest? I want to do this, I don't know how.

I am SO jealous of those of you that don't understand the need for a routine and think it should just be simple. How I wish it were simple for us. We are laidback and not routine-y in every possible way, but the sleep situation is really awful in our house.

Me too, me too! Anyone??







:


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

A couple of thoughts about sleep fighting. Just want to preface by saying these thoughts come out of my experience as someone who was a sleep fighter throughout childhood and remembers how she felt, has watched the sleep fight with some family members, and is a proponent of The Continuum Concept -- AND has one kid (just one) who has had uneven sleep habits but no routine. I've been trying to work through my assumptions about sleep and about my role in it. So anything I say is just the framework that is currently working for me. I don't mean to imply anything negative about what you're already doing, or anything at all about your child's temperament. One background assumption I should advertise has to do with my being Catholic: I just take it for granted that everything about my life is a little skewed. The fact that my dd doesn't drift off effortlessly as soon as she starts yawning doesn't mean that the idea of natural sleep habits is wrong. It means I'm haven't fully devoted myself to it or uncovered my inner demons about it. I say that a bit tongue in cheek, but the pattern still annoys the heck out of some people. So I love you all dearly, and am open to being set straight by you. Just sharing my beliefs and experiences. End disclaimer. 

First, are you sure this is a fight? Or is your child tired, but something is keeping her from getting to sleep? Try to step back from worrying about sleep and trying to get your child to do it, and think about what is standing in the way.

One thing that I suspect is pretty common and was a huge issue for my dd is energy discharge. Try slinging not with the immediate goal of putting your baby to sleep, but in order to do something very physically active. Go for a brisk walk for fun, or do some wild dancing, or do some demanding, moving-around type house or yard work. Or, when s/he is seeming overtired or maybe after a bath, play wildly: dangle her from each limb and from her head (supporting each side with your hands), hold her upside down by her legs, toss her up in the air. Then stretch and massage her entire body. Then listen to her: is she ready to nurse, bounce, ... ? If energy discharge is the problem, your baby will probably feel a lot better after some of this stuff and go to sleep more easily.

Since we have a lot of electric lights and follow a non-light-oriented schedule, some babies have an internal circadian rhythm that is out of synch with their environment. So sometimes it is helpful to pick a time (whatever seems natural to you, knowing your baby and the natural lighting where you live) after which you keep most of the lights off and the rest low, and try to consciously be quieter and do quiet activities. (So in my case, at one point while I was in grad school it occurred to me that my habit of suddenly deciding to sweep and mop all the floors at 9:30 pm was probably keeping dd awake. Oops.)

Think of you and baby as on the same team, and when baby is tired and can't seem to sleep, you are trying to find out how you can help. You might have to try different things. If you have a non-nursing partner handy, s/he might be better able to help sometimes. For example, my dd went through a period where all that would help her sleep was bouncing up and down on my dh's lap. His, specifically. The important thing -- which can be hard when you're frustrated -- is to avoid thinking that you "know better" and your baby should just cooperate, because no one of any age likes this and it tends to be counterproductive. You may come to an insight into the situation (like the energy discharge, or the lighting, or whatever) that your baby doesn't have, but s/he remains the ultimate authority on her own body (though with you thinking sym-pathetically, in union with her, as much as possible).

And then there is always food or elimination habits. Could s/he be allergic to something, feeling ill or hyper? Needing to have a bowel movement?

Sometimes, for whatever reason, you are not going to be able to help your baby go to sleep. Maybe s/he is miserable from teething (and your frozen washcloths and whatnot haven't worked), or truly doesn't want help and doesn't want sleep -- learning and exploring may be more important right now. (Like when I stay up half the night to read a really good book. The sacrifice is worth it. And if I *really really* need the sleep, I'll collapse later.) At that point, it's ok to just let it go. You don't have to feel like a bad parent because your baby is up late, or worry that her brain isn't going to develop properly, or start reading Marc Weissbluth. If s/he gets upset and overtired later, continue to be calmly supportive. But don't act desperate or make an issue of sleep. When you are ready for bed, take her with you. If she won't settle down, take turns with your partner being the one to stay up (in the dark) with her. If you're sleep deprived, find someone to babysit the next day and take a nap.

I guess the insight that is really important for me to hang onto is that my baby is not broken. S/he may be different, and there may be some hard aspects to that. S/he may be going through something different right now. But there is no way s/he is simply self-destructive. I need to adjust my expectations (to make sure I'm not conveying any negative ones), deal with my own feelings of anxiety and frustration, and continue to be calmly supportive. There is nothing wrong with listening to your baby's cues and responding. If that means that every night at exactly 7:30 your baby acts tired and is happiest if you read a book and then tuck him into his crib, great! Go for it. If that isn't your baby, you don't have to do anything special other than continuing to take care of yourself and be supportive. Usually, unless there is a medical problem, these things will ultimately take care of themselves.


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

My kids did this until the oldest was around 2.5-3 they would actually climb in bed themselves and settle down to sleep when they were tired. Now though they get frustrated and end up acting out towards each other and in tears and saying they are so not tired. So I lay with them and talk with them at night around 7-8 when they seem to be getting tired and they drift off when they are ready. Usually pretty fast because I wait until I see their signals.
So ideally I'd have continued letting them fade off in their own time, but realistically it wasn't working anymore when they started fighting it and that lead to a lot of sadness and frustration so I started helping in the least invasive way I could.
Plus, as selfish as it may sound DH only liked the arrangement until they started staying up later than we were willing to stay up. We're early to bed kind of people and like to spend a night or two a week conecting as a couple after they fall asleep. It works for us- you know?


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Erin, I think you gave some great suggestions. I was going to suggest slinging baby during the day, checking for food allergies from baby's food and from mom's food if breastfeeding and checking for medical reasons. I don't have sleep fighters, though, so I really don't know what might work. One more thing that comes to my mind is what the level of stress in the home/family is. Babies and children are excellent at picking up on underlying issues no matter how hard we may try to cover them up. I am curious as to what may cause sleep fighting but I'd be careful about seeking professional help unless you can find someone who understands and supports AP and respecting the child's individual temprament.


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## Attila the Honey (Mar 15, 2003)

Eminer> I really got alot out of your post, thank you.

I do want to clarify that I don't think of this in terms of something being broken here. I do truly believe it's just my daughter's own natural temperment. She's active, inquisitive, fun loving, and always on the go. As with everything else in life, these qualities have their time and place.







During the day, it's a blast! At 11pm, after mom and dad have been up since 5am because we have to work, it's not really so wonderful. KWIM?

I think you bring up alot of helpful ideas. We do dim the lights to wind us all down for sleep. I do sling her alot. I don't feel it's food allergies or sensitivities, because like I said, she's doing well. This is just how she is, active and not eager to miss a thing!

I wish just allowing her to follow her own rhythm were more possible, but it's not. I work, and bring her to work with me, so I have to be up around 5am. I am a nanny, so if I don't get my sleep the children I watch (and my dd) suffer along with me. For the record, she naps well at home but won't at work. Again, she doesn't want to miss a thing. She conks out the moment she hits her carseat on the way home.









But again, your post gave me alot to think about and I appreciate it!


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

At first, I followed my child - as a baby. Found she had certain tendencies toward certain hours of the day. I noticed that if she was irritable, it coincided with when she was normally asleep, so I would lay her down. As her sleep patterns changed, I changed with it, and stuck to them as she was happier with routine.

If I went 'with' her, she would be awake more often of course, because the world is so new and exciting. But I know when she needs sleep, at what times, and she falls asleep whenever I lay her down, even at two and a half.

She has a regular bedtime, and some nights at 7pm she plays quietly in her crib for half an hour before sleeping, and other times, she falls right asleep. So, routine girl here, and it works for us. It gives me an idea of her moods also, because at midday, at naptime, she starts to get really moody, but doesn't look tired. If I went with her, she would (and does) stay moody the rest of the day, but wouldn't just 'fall asleep'. IYKWIM.

So, routine or no routine, it's all goooooooood.

With love.


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
One more thing that comes to my mind is what the level of stress in the home/family is. Babies and children are excellent at picking up on underlying issues no matter how hard we may try to cover them up.

Oh, yes! This is so true.

Attila, it sounds like you are very understanding of your dd.


As if in response to this thread, my dd (who is maybe starting to give up naps) decided to finally fall asleep sprawled across three seats on the train this evening, when we were about to go shopping.


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## Milkymommi (Aug 29, 2003)

"Does anyone else here just let sleep happen when it happens? "

Yup! and tonight it's not happening :LOL DS is still roaring around the house which is quite strange considering he usually asks to go to bed around 8:30 or 9. Of course these nights do befall us occasionally!!!









Have a good nights rest Mamas...or not :LOL


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## OakEmber (Jul 3, 2002)

Attila- as to the not wanting to miss a thing issue...what works for us at those times is just all going to bed...all the lights, TV, etc. off and mom and dad go to bed too...it usually doesn't take long for Dd to drift off to sleep and then we may or may not get up again and go about our night (but by then we are probably snoring too







) But we've only had to do this on one or two instances (basically those nights that I have been just too tired to function anymore), so it's not really BTDT sleep fighting issue advice.

To the original topic....yes we just let sleep happens when it happens (regarding bedtime and naps), and I grew up in a family that did the same (so I guess I am just doing what comes naturally for me). But without going too much into it, I just wanted to say that none of me or my siblings have any sleep issues...we can sleep in beds that aren't ours, have never had to use sleep aids (I am guessing that this is a multimillion dollar industry), no problems with insomnia, etc....so IMO it hasn't done us any harm and has actually been good for us


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## 2boysandadog (Aug 12, 2004)

We did what you are describing w/ them as infants, but as they got older and had trouble falling asleep alone or w/ both in the same room we came up w/ routines that work for them. Why does it bother you that others have routines?

Some of it is just stuff I want to make sure gets done during the day and is relaxing so we do it before bed, though. Like, we do baths every night, have snack (so they won't get hungry in the middle of the night), then read books. I want them to have baths and read books every day and bedtime is a good time for that.







I can't say it ruins our lives if we do it differently one night - like now that ds is in K for some reason we've gotten into this thing of having Friday be movie night and watching kids movies in the TV room until they're dropping off.
Some people (and children) are just more routine oriented.


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## 2boysandadog (Aug 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mcsarahb*
Me too, me too! Anyone??







:


OK, you two, there is hope.







If I'm reading the dates right (and forgive me here I'm a bit tired b/c I've been up since 3 a.m. w/ one sick kid or the other and would be asleep now, but one is sleeping in my lap and I'm afraid to move.









Anyway, despite my exhaustion today, I will say that both my kids were *terrible* sleepers until they were 2 years old. Now that they are 2 and 5 they are good sleepers if they aren't sick (like now).








My oldest never slept thru the night (and I do mean the "5 hours" definition here) until he was just over 2 years old. We'd spend hours nursing, walking, laying down w/ him, etc. Then, one day he just started sleeping better. I could go into all the things we figured out that were wrong w/ him, but part of it was he was just finally old enough to get it and sleep. He sleeps great now.
The little one is just barely 2 and while we have rough nights still, but they go to sleep great most nights. We do have a "routine," but I don't see it as hard or elaborate or anything. Mostly I just have to make sure they are relaxed and have time to wind down before bed.
I also agree w/ wemoon's suggestion on the school thing. We started waking my ds at the time he'd need to get up for school the week before school started (would rather him be tired and cranky w/ me than the teacher). He has to get up at 6:30 a.m. Before we knew it he was going to bed at 8 or before.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

As infants/toddlers when they were acting or looking sleepy, we just tried to mellow things out for them a bit by making it darker, less active, turn off the tv or snuggle up and watch tv, snuggle in bed or on the sofa, nurse them, etc. We followed their cues on being sleepy and then tweaked the environment to help them get what they needed.

If a routine works for someone then so be it... I've got no problem with that. It just wouldn't be appropriate in my family


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2boysandadog*
I also agree w/ wemoon's suggestion on the school thing. We started waking my ds at the time he'd need to get up for school the week before school started (would rather him be tired and cranky w/ me than the teacher).

I was going to suggest this for the person who posted about her children having trouble adjusting to a schedule when they got older. If you start a week or two before the schedule starts to wake the kids up earlier, they will slowly adjust their sleep cycles naturally to accomadate the new schedule. It is suggested to do this in 15 minute increments and allow a few days of adjustment for each 15 minutes. Most people will begin to fall asleep earlier at night if they repeatedly have to wake up earlier in the morning.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2boysandadog*
Why does it bother you that others have routines?


It doesn't really bother me that others have a routine, I just know it wouldn't work for us at all. We are so un-routine-y :LOL that trying to throw a routine in the mix would freak everyone out! I geuss the one routine for night time that I do follow, is that the kids are not allowed to do wild, running play after about 8-8:30. They can play together quietly, do some art, look at books, watch a movie, but if they start rough-housing and running I step in. But it is such a lax routine that I have a hard time calling it that.

I've learned alot from this thread, mostly that I probably shouldn't be giving much sleep advice!


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## knittingmomma (Jun 5, 2004)

Hi,
Our now four year, who has pretty much always slept with us, still refuses to go to sleep in her bed, sets up a "bed" on the floor next to us each night and generally doesn't fall to sleep until shortly before we do...

Our baby we definitely do not have a routine -

Our six year old, we try to get to go to sleep sometimes because he gets a bit "trying" when he is so tired, but I thinks sometimes it just back fires.
Warm wishes,
Tonya


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Controlling sleep is something that I struggle on and off with. When I'm tired I tend get tempted by the success stories I've heard from some of my friend's families (fabulous "AP" people, BTW) who use a schedule. The fact is that this doesn't work well for our family ~ not because I don't think it would 'work' but because our lifestyle is just not conducive to having a predictable, reliable enough schedule and routine to be of any comfort to my child.

That said ~ sleep deprivation (of the caretakers) is NOT something to be taken lightly. It's dangerous and seriously unhealthy. For me, it leads to extreme paranoia and one full fledged panic attack. Had I let it continue I would have not been able to parent at all - let alone parent well. Sleep is a need and it ranks with the top essential needs of all people, especially mothers! Sorry for that rant&#8230; I just don't think the need to have a child is in the same category as the need for sleep. Sleep, to me, is up there with the need for water and nutrition.

Anyway, another non-sleep routine parent. We do much of what you all do. We help DC know the sleep signs (rubbing eyes, yawning, crankiness, darkness&#8230;and a big one ~ mamma or daddy is tired). We do have a loose bedtime or naptime routine when DC is tired and I must say that it is very nice for her. She's still flexible but seems quite attached to it when we've had a normal day. But, she can also still (at 3!) fall asleep in the sling or at a party. She can also skip a nap and deal with the consequences. Overall, I'd say that we've got good sleep habits.

Oh, one last thing - it seems like some people are using some routines but maybe not schedules (like us). Are we talking more about following our children's rhythms (when possible) or limiting "routines" like quite time and etc.?


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## NinaBruja (Jan 19, 2004)

i am pure chaos i couldnt do a schedule if i wanted to.
my daughter also has my reluctance to sleep. i should be sleeping now.
we put cassandra down to sleep when she starts acting angry for no good reason, she will start rubbing her eyes or just be angry and ill nurse her or my boyfriend will rock her and she will usually nod off with minimal protest. if she fights we just wear her out a little. after some highly active play she is out. or a bath, baths make her sleepy.
but we look to her for sleep ques, as she often will not sleep by herself.
my best friends daguhter is very scheduled in everything. my friend never actively tried to its all the baby. my boyfriend an i were stunned to see she ate her baby food like clockwork.
but yes we do everything when it happens.
were spontaneous people.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I just wanted to add a funny...My child is 3 now and one of the new signs of being tired is when she yells "I'M NOT TIRED!!" But, last night she told me that she was tired because she was rubbing her eyes...very cute.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
Oh, one last thing - it seems like some people are using some routines but maybe not schedules (like us). Are we talking more about following our children's rhythms (when possible) or limiting "routines" like quite time and etc.?

I think I mostly follow my children's rhythms, but also have a very, very loose routine where when it seems like the kids are getting tired then it is quiet time. There is no magic quiet time, like 8pm or anything. It changes with what has gone on in the day, how tired the kids are etc.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Yea, that's us too.


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## Cali'sMom (Sep 30, 2004)

Same here...Cali goes to sleep whenever she goes to sleep, lol

I am glad to find out I am not the only one parenting this way!!


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## hunnybumm (Nov 1, 2003)

I haven't read the previous posts because wow 4 pages! But I wanted to chime in with my opinions.

We also just fall asleep when we fall asleep, but my son is only 10 months which is totally different then a 3 or 5 year old. When he is tired he gets fussy and grumpy and I know he wants to be held and/or nursed, then he falls asleep. I very very rarly work at putting him to sleep. If it takes more than 10 mintues and he odviously isn't interested, ie trying to crawl, screaming/crying when I try to lay him down or nurse him. He usually plays himself out and I snuggle him then put him to sleep.

I think it also takes knowing your child and know what helps to fall asleep/stay asleep. Some nights when I am exhausted and I know he is too, but he won't lay down I have to go into the computer room and rock him. I think it's a combination of the heat, the light and the humm of the 3 computers. Other nights he wants to be laid down and not touched, or he wants to lay down but be snuggled. Just like everything else in child rearing you have to learn their signals and learn what to do with them.

Some kids need schedules to function, especially many high needs children. My stepmom's sisters son is extremely intense, he has some autistic tendancies but not diagnosed autistic. He is extremely intense. He has to have a shedule. He was ask what time it is so he knows when it is time to go to bed, take a bath, read a book, etc. He thrives off it. If you tell him you are going to be a little late leaving for school, he freaks out.

On the other hand I have a friend who is very schedule orientated. At about 1 month old she started her daughter on a schedule for sleeping, bathing, nurseing, etc. When she started solids at 4 months, she ate them at a specified time. The sad thing about this was that the mother unknowingly helped to pretty much wean her daughter. At 12 months she only nursed her in the morning and at night. I am not knocking her because it is very cool that she is still nursing, but there have been times when her daughter wants to nurse at play group because other babies are, but her mother tells her "No, it's not time for bed, you can't nurse yet."

I personaly don't like schedules, I had a hard time waking up for school my whole life no matter what time I went to bed. I am just not an early riser, never have been. So, we go to bed when we are tired and wake up when we wake up. But I think we will have trouble when DS gets to school age because he can't just go whenever. He needs to be there on time, etc. So I feel around age 4 or 5 I will try and get us on a more regular schedule for eatting, sleeping, baths, etc.

I say whatever works for the family. I don't think every child needs to be on a schedule or doesn't need to be on one.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I probably have a very loose routine but it's not a routine to get baby to go to sleep. We eat dinner around 7 pm. After dinner I usually give baby a bath, which takes less than 30 minutes. That's our routine. Baby doesn't usually go to sleep at night until after 9 so there's a lot of time after the bath when we are just hanging out. When he starts to show his sleepy signs I take him in the bedroom and pop in the video of his daddy reading him some books. His dad has been deployed since he was 6 months old so we do this to keep them connected. I am not a schedule oriented person, however, so we don't do this every night. My ds still usually goes to sleep at night around the same time every night. He also usually takes naps around the same time every day without any prompting on my part. The only thing I do to "control" his sleep is that I will wake him up at 6 pm if he's still napping. I only do this because, if I don't, he stays up later than I can, which I feel is dangerous.

My 13yo who doesn't have a schedule told me the other night that he purposely went to sleep at midnight even though he didn't really feel tired.


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## AORS (Oct 2, 2004)

When my daughter was a baby / toddler she went to sleep regularly on her own. Now that she is older it is pretty much the same. She still argues at times, but mostly she goes to bed at 9PM on school nights. She slept in her crib most of the time, but as she became a toddler, she started sleeping with me in my bed until she was two, then I started trying to get her to sleep in her own room by sleeping in there with her. It was easy for her to start sleeping alone because she felt crowded and only wanted me there till she fell asleep. With our son, it has been a whole different story. The first six months with my son, he would only sleep about 45 minutes to three hours at a time during the night and I was up with him constantly. Then we went on a road trip to see family and stayed at a motel, and so he was in bed with us, and he pretty much slept all night long except for feeding. After six months of no sleep, that felt great, so we started putting him in bed with us all the time. Now, he absolutely will not sleep in his own bed at all, and he is two years old now. It's very uncomforterable and I wake feeling sore, but I am getting sleep. How ever, he goes through phases where he wants to nap all day and stay up ALL night, when he gets in these phases, it is very difficult to get him back out of them because if I try to wake him early so that he will go to sleep at night, he gets extremely cranky.. He requires 10 hours of sleep when he is not napping, but actually sleeping, and the problem is, getting those ten hours to happen at the appropriate time. If I was working right now, I absolutely could not handle the mixed up schedule. But for now, I just do it his way, and wishing I had a routine. :yawning:














:2toddler:


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## Twinthing (Jul 26, 2004)

This is a really interesting thread - especially from the perspective of a mum of 2 babies. I would have *loved* to ignore the whole routine/schedule thing - I'm just not that kind of girl, so to begin with we let our boys do their own thing. However, by the time they were about 7 mos I was starting to lose it a bit - never having a moment to myself, and getting stressed about never knowing what was going to happen next. So we started to do a routine which was based on a lot of thought about when the boys usually got tired - basically trying to read their cues and work with them. Doing this has meant that I have a fairly guaranteed time during the day when I can catch up with a bit of cleaning, cooking etc., and some time in the evenings to relax a bit (and come here - and get some much needed support).

Ds1 and ds2 actually have quite different sleep needs, so there has been a fair bit of compromise all round - e.g. ds1 often doesn't need his morning nap if he has woken up a bit later than usual, or he has his afternoon lap a bit later if he slept longer in the morning. Ds2 likes more sleep in the day so has squeezed in an extra nap now and again. They also have slightly different bedtimes. So we are _trying_ to respect their rhythms...

An additional benefit has been that now my dp (a SAHDad) and I don't have to have endless discussions about who will do what, with what baby, and when. This is a real relief and means we can all be a lot more relaxed. I think this is just one of the many compromises of trying to AP more than 1 baby at a time... I have to say however that my babies seem happier with this than with the previous situation - because it means that we are much better at meeting their needs when awake or asleep.


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## sntm (Jan 1, 2004)

I don't know if this has been mentioned (only skimmed after page 1) but for those families where both parents work outside the home, certain time schedules are necessary, so you don't have the luxury of letting your child fall asleep whenever and make up for it by sleeping in the next day. My work right now is fairly flexible, but daycare closes at 6 regardless, so I can't let my DS sleep until 9 (as if!!!) and not make it to work until 10.

Personally, also, I believe that regular bedtimes are healthy. People have natural biorhythms which have been messed up by the use of artificial lights in the evenings and other diversions which keep us up later than we naturally would. A baby who stays up late into the evening would probably, almost definitely not stay up that late if the lights became dim after sunset and everyone was quieter.


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sntm*
A baby who stays up late into the evening would probably, almost definitely not stay up that late if the lights became dim after sunset and everyone was quieter.

Wouldn't that be letting sleep happen when it happens? Unfortunately, though, in my area, it wouldn't be a regular bed*time*, and it wouldn't help much with an inflexible work schedule. The sun sets here any time between about 4 and 10 pm, depending on the time of year and "daylight savings". It is natural for people in my area to sleep a lot in the winter, and a lot less in the summer. (And to work a lot less in the winter, a lot more in the summer.) When I was in school, coming home in the dark every evening and then trying to energize myself to do a bunch of homework was torturous. Many working people suffer from depression all winter, simply because they rarely see natural light: They have to drag themselves out of bed in the dark, and by the time they get home, it's dark again. In the summer, whole families (including little kids, who will eventually fall asleep in arms or in strollers if they feel like it) sit out on the steps in a party mood quite late. Even after dark, the heat, and the light feeling of excitement in the air, affects people's natural sleep pattern.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

I haven't read the whole 4 pages because I don't have much time but I wanted to post my opinion..

I don't do "bedtime routines" and don't like them. I also wonder often why people start their routines at about 5 PM!
First of all, we have no set bedtimes. I am a SAHM so my children can sleep when their bodies need it and I will be there to assist them (put dd to bed, put her classical music on -she doesnt go to sleep without it- pj's etc.. then I nurse my ds to sleep, and he doesn't have a schedule and he's almost 8 months. he still nurses and sleeps when he wants to. at night he sleeps with me and he nurses all night long as well. It wouldn't work to put them on a schedule because 1)I don't want to and 2)it would be a shock for them because they have always done what they want when they want it. they have never fought sleep, the only "rule" we have would be, when we go to sleep (usually around 11) everyone has to, if they haven't already. but this never happens because by 11 they are both sound asleep, ofcourse.


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## sntm (Jan 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eminer*
Wouldn't that be letting sleep happen when it happens? .

Sort of, but linking it to sunset is more regular than allowing life activities to interrupt and people have innate circadian rhythms because of milennia of sleep cycles which reflect day/night. When I read your post, all I could think about was the movie "Insomnia", where the constant daylight and sleep deprivation was driving someone insane. And I've heard of studies showing the night workers and shift workers tend to have higher rates of disease, etc., due to the impact on sleep, regardless of the absolute amount of sleep they get.

I'm not a fan of "strict" bedtimes, but I think a loose bedtime around 7 or 8 tends to be best for most kids. I've noticed that my son actually sleeps better and falls asleep faster on the nights when we lie down and he doesn't seem tired at all. He'll be having a grand old time and not look tired and then we turn the lights out and nurse and he's out. If he seems tired, it's usually too late by the time we get clean diapers, pajamas, and into bed.


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sntm*
Sort of, but linking it to sunset is more regular than allowing life activities to interrupt and people have innate circadian rhythms because of milennia of sleep cycles which reflect day/night.

Right, but in most parts of the world, day/night have been seasonally cycling for all those millenia. The clock is a very new thing. For most of human history, there was no "around 7 or 8".

Quote:

When I read your post, all I could think about was the movie "Insomnia", where the constant daylight and sleep deprivation was driving someone insane.
The post about how I get sleepy earlier in the winter? Why?


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

This is along the lines of some things I have read where there is debate about how much of a parent's life should change for a child. There are parents out there who go to bed at 8pm, and by many responses here, that would mean if their child were to stay up until 11pm, then so would they.

I was wondering if parents who go with the child's sleep patterns wake their children in the morning, because once they are at school, that is exactly what you'll have to do. Unless you home school, which is a viable option.

Also, how do you keep the bond with your DP? I don't know how my DH and I would have survived without those 2 to 3 hours of bonding time in the evening when our daughter is asleep. I mean, we would have survived, but as it is we flourish, our marriage is the happiest I have seen anywhere - and I think this is largely due to our time together. And of course, by extension, we have a happy home - which is the most important thing for a child's development.

I have no doubt there are many different ways to keep a happy home and a quality relationship, but it must be a little harder when you are up with children until 9 or midnight. Just wondering, if anyone would like to share with me.

Blessings.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Oh, and a last question. What happens when you have more than one child? Lets say child #1 stays up late and child #2 goes to bed early and wakes early. Oh Lordy, what then? Do those parents just zombie around all day living on a prayer for more sleep? Is following a child always the healthiest method, when so many routine babies are doing just fine - and so are the parents? Or is following the children only viable when there is one child? Again, just wondering how others are doing it.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I think most children do not stay up very late. For example, I follow my baby's natural schedule and he has always gone to sleep at night by 9 pm except for a few rare occasions when he was up until 10:30 or 11. I have another child but he is much older so I don't need to be up when he is up. We do homeschool so we don't have a set time to get up in the mornings either. However, as I stated in an earlier post, if you have to get a baby or child up for something on a regular basis, their bodies will naturally adjust to the new schedule. They will either sleep more during the day or go to sleep earlier at night. I think the times when this does not happen is when you have a baby or child with a true medical problem or sleep disorder.

I don't feel that this interferes with my relationship with my dh either. I have "quality bonding" time with him whenever I want. Our situation may be a little different because we did not have the alone time before kids like many partners. I already had my older ds, who was 9yo, when we got married. So, I was already focused on a child and my dh new that coming into the relationship. We co-sleep so the intimate times are a bit more of a challenge. I look at it this way, however, the time that my children need to be close to me and need me for everything is such a short time compared to a lifetime of marriage. I think if both partners understand this and agree that that is most important to them both, the marital relationship can flourish. I think there is a new and unique bond that is formed between partners when they commit to raising children together that goes beyond the relationship they had before. I have heard many men say of their wives in a loving and aweful manner, "That is the mother of my children." I know I feel differently toward my dh now that he is the father of my baby. Some men (and women to a lesser extent) have trouble with this change in their lifestyles. They can accept it and even learn to love it if they are willing.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
I haven't read the whole 4 pages because I don't have much time but I wanted to post my opinion..

I don't do "bedtime routines" and don't like them. I also wonder often why people start their routines at about 5 PM!
First of all, we have no set bedtimes. I am a SAHM so my children can sleep when their bodies need it and I will be there to assist them (put dd to bed, put her classical music on -she doesnt go to sleep without it- pj's etc.. then I nurse my ds to sleep, and he doesn't have a schedule and he's almost 8 months. he still nurses and sleeps when he wants to. at night he sleeps with me and he nurses all night long as well. It wouldn't work to put them on a schedule because 1)I don't want to and 2)it would be a shock for them because they have always done what they want when they want it. they have never fought sleep, the only "rule" we have would be, when we go to sleep (usually around 11) everyone has to, if they haven't already. but this never happens because by 11 they are both sound asleep, ofcourse.

There is a big difference between having bedtime routines and putting babies on schedules, just so you know









My dd is one and would easily stay up until 10:30/11 pm if we let bedtime drift like that. When she was younger, she wouldn't fall asleep until 12 or 1. In our house, there is no of course.

I think the dynamic is different when you have a sleep fighter. They don't need schedules, but they do need HELP falling asleep. My dd is happiest when her sleep is regular. It isn't respectful of me to let her sleep patterns get out of whack.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Thanks, Alysia, that was what I was looking for, and it is true about the relationship dynamic being better when they father (or mother) your child. I was also wondering about this though, but forgot to post it in my first post -

"if you have to get a baby or child up for something on a regular basis, their bodies will naturally adjust to the new schedule."

When this is mentioned by people who let sleep happen when it happens, I think this is the opposite of that. To wake a child is not going with their natural sleep cycles. They may adjust to a new schedule, but that is still one we have given them. Know what I mean? I am trying to see how a family can follow a child's sleep patterns and not fall over themselves at some point.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm*

Also, how do you keep the bond with your DP? I don't know how my DH and I would have survived without those 2 to 3 hours of bonding time in the evening when our daughter is asleep. I mean, we would have survived, but as it is we flourish, our marriage is the happiest I have seen anywhere - and I think this is largely due to our time together. And of course, by extension, we have a happy home - which is the most important thing for a child's development.
.


Well, right now I am a single mama, but when I was with my X, we did not feel like our kids somehow ruined our relationship. In fact the kids were the best part of our realationship. When we were hanging out as a family, doing family activities we were the happiest. I just don't understand the notion that kids are somehow such a huge burden or strain on a relationship! My family IS(was in my case now) the relationship. The reason we seperated had nothing to do with "quality time", that is for sure.

If children can so easily ruin a relationship, just by being themselves and being around.... then I question the relationship from the get-go.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm*

"if you have to get a baby or child up for something on a regular basis, their bodies will naturally adjust to the new schedule."

When this is mentioned by people who let sleep happen when it happens, I think this is the opposite of that. To wake a child is not going with their natural sleep cycles. They may adjust to a new schedule, but that is still one we have given them. Know what I mean? I am trying to see how a family can follow a child's sleep patterns and not fall over themselves at some point.


I rarely have to wake up my kids for school. The first couple of days I had to wake the oldest one up, but I did so very gently, I would open up the blinds so it was light in the room, mention to her that it would be time to get up soon. I would just go about getting myself and my youngest ready, not being quiet or loud, just go on with life. I would then turn on the lights in the bedroom, mention again that she would need to get up and get ready for school. I go take my shower. Only one time was she still not up after that point, so I had to physically pick her up and bring her to the living room with me.

This was only the first week of school that this happened. My son has always gotten up in plenty of time on his own. And quite honestly, if my children really didn't want to get up, I wouldn't make them.


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## sntm (Jan 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eminer*
Right, but in most parts of the world, day/night have been seasonally cycling for all those millenia. The clock is a very new thing. For most of human history, there was no "around 7 or 8".

The post about how I get sleepy earlier in the winter? Why?

Eminer -- meant to be joking about the movie Insomnia (prob should have put a smiley in there). Just remembering how hard it was to go to sleep when it was bright out when I was working nights.

Even with seasonal cycles, the change is very gradual, so quite different IMO than going to bed at 8 one night and 10 the next.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Calm, I can understand your point. You are absolutely correct that having to wake up at a particular time to get to school or work is not natural. Unfortunately, that's how our society runs. Waking a child earlier so that they will naturally adjust to an earlier bedtime is not ideal but sometimes needed if there is a schedule to keep. Waking a child earlier gradually over time so that they naturally change to an earlier bedtime is better than trying to force a child to go to sleep before she is tired. Anyone who has had a baby knows you cannot make that baby go to sleep. If a child does not get sleepy until 9 pm, why force her to go to bed at 7? If you do it because she needs 11 hours of sleep and you have to get her up at 6, then you start gradually waking her earlier in 15 minute increments over a week or two and she should slowly begin to fall asleep earlier until her body has adjusted to falling asleep at a time that gives her enough sleep when waking at 6 am. Or she may just take a longer nap or an extra nap during the day and still stay up until 9 pm.

I do understand that not everyone can stay up until all hours with their child. If my baby takes a late nap and has not woken by 6 pm, I will wake him so that he is not up too late at night. I hope all that makes sense.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Wemoon, I like your point about how everyone in the family is part of the relationship. That's how I look at things. I've gotten into discussions with friends that don't have children about this. They think it's very important to schedule couple time without the kids and don't understand why we don't do that. I just don't feel the need. It's not that I focus only on the children and never pay attention to my dh (although he's deployed right now so I guess I kind of do). I just like to do things as a family unit rather than in pieces. I am able to get enough time with my dh with my children around. I also think it's important for children to be exposed to adult relationships, to hear our adult discussions, to see us doing things together (not sex, of course). They are more likely to understand what a real relationship is like and less likely to believe in a fantasy and be disappointed.


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## kalakanya (Apr 23, 2003)

wemoon said:


> [I just don't get all these crazy things people do to get their kids to sleep. Why not just start a routine of laying down and going to sleep with your kids and somehow muddle through it?]
> 
> This is coming off as a little bit judgemental.. crazy? well.. maybe.. But also accomodating to his needs.
> My DS used to just fall asleep, angelically, on his own schedule, and we would shrug and say, ah, today we have a two pm nap. We never tried to force sleep times on him at all.
> ...


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

Calm,

When we are ready to go to bed, we take our dd to bed with us (if she isn't already asleep). So if we were going to bed at 8 pm, so would she. In general, this has worked out really well since the beginning. If the whole tribe is hunkering down, turning out the lights, and well nursie-ing , dd figures it must be time to go to sleep now. Occasionally, there have been times when dd could not get to sleep when we were going. Then one of us stayed up with her awhile, quietly, trying to encourage sleepiness (e.g. dh would take her for a walk). It wasn't much of a routine, either timed or with habitual parts: it was just time for the family to go to bed.

Re: bonding with my dh, small children generally sleep longer than adults at night. (That's certainly not an absolute, but most do, and we were lucky enough to get one who does. ) So in general, dd will either have conked out a couple of hours before dh and I are ready for bed, or she will sleep a couple of hours after we wake up. Another thing she sometimes does is take an evening nap in preparation for staying up until the family bedtime (which isn't at a regular time, but there's a ballpark). We value our alone time while dd is sleeping, or hanging out with her godmother in another apartment. But it isn't our only "dp-type" bonding time, by any stretch. Sometimes dd is busy by herself in another room. When she was a baby, she might be hanging out in the sling, and she didn't seem like a fully separate person yet.

If my dd were going to school, it would be by her choice. One of the things we'd discuss ahead of time about school is how you have to commit to showing up at a certain time, every day. We'd talk about how we'd all (since dh or I would have to take her) need to start going to bed earlier, to get to school on time. I'd probably try to get her directly involved with the alarm clock, showing her how to set it and letting it ring until it woke her so she could turn it off. If I had needed to take dd to a babysitter or daycare earlier on, I probably would not have woken her. If she'd woken up because of being moved, that reality would simply have incorporated itself into her natural sleep pattern. (This did in fact happen when we had to go somewhere and dd was still asleep.) She might have taken an extra nap later, or an extra long nap, or fallen asleep earlier that night.

Are you familiar with The Continuum Concept? It sounds to me sort of like you're asking if letting sleep happen when it happens is necessarily child-centered (used pejoratively -- i.e. child-centered in an unbalanced way). To me, it is just the opposite. I go ahead with my adult activities, my adult sleep habits, etc. When she was a baby, I carried Grace in a sling or in arms a lot while I did this. Whenever she was ready (not necessarily in two regular daily blocks) she would nurse to sleep, or fall asleep as I moved. Sometimes she seemed restless, and that cued me to lie down and nurse her (which is the first way she learned to nurse, as a newborn). If she seemed really asleep, and I wanted some space, I would put her down. Dh did the same things, except that he gave her to me to nurse a lot. When she seemed overtired or was crying in late afternoon/evening, we assumed this was a problem and found solutions (energy-discharge-oriented ones, mostly, and lighting).

We are going to have a baby in a few months. We'll do the same thing.

So anyway, sorry to have written a book, but what I'm trying to get across is that I think letting sleep happen whenever and wherever fits into a larger lifestyle. If that's not how you do baby care, or if you are naturally a routine-oriented person, it won't be hard to get your baby to slip into a routine, and it's perfectly healthy -- if that's how it works (as opposed to requiring night after night of suffering and crying). Personally, it would have been really hard for me to adjust my life to a rigid sleep routine. I've noticed I'm not the only one in my neighborhood, though most little kids nod off in their strollers. I think it fits well with life in the city, where you have to do a lot of things outside your home and transportation sometimes takes a long time (and doesn't involve a car).


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sntm*
Eminer -- meant to be joking about the movie Insomnia (prob should have put a smiley in there). Just remembering how hard it was to go to sleep when it was bright out when I was working nights.

Ok, I think I gotcha now. 

Quote:

Even with seasonal cycles, the change is very gradual, so quite different IMO than going to bed at 8 one night and 10 the next.
True. My guess would be that the healthiest would be a fairly regular group pattern, with individual flexibility allowed within that framework. For example, everyone goes to bed around the same time, but maybe a child or someone who needs more sleep will take individually timed naps, or might go off and fall asleep earlier. And older person will probably sleep less at night, and might take a nap during the day. Of course, anyone up at night is still in the framework of the group sleep. It's quiet(ish) and dark(ish), and this will turn one's activities toward the quiet and reflective. I've read that in most traditional societies people collectively sleep a lot longer at night, but wake up individually in the middle for a couple of hours.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

kalakanya said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *wemoon*
> ...


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Erin and Wemoon, thank you. And of course others who touched on my subject. You see, I guess I am contemplating this whole child centered thing. I mean, I feel like my whole life is child centered, you know? All day she is on my or with me and I absolutely love it, but I must admit, when 7pm rolls around and i slump in my comfy chair with a book, look over at my hubby, it's like - aaaaahhhhhh. It's more like, the child focused activities are done, and we have uninterupted adult talk or activities.

I have tried taking my daughter out later at night and she stays up with the best of 'em. I have tried keeping her up with me when my hubby was working nights and it just goes on and on and on and she doesn't really settle. She also weighs 15 kilos, so holding her and slinging her has become literally painful. And so when I pop her into bed, snuggle in with her for half an hour, walk out with a kiss and an "I love you", she goes right to sleep.

How can I resist? I want to be more child centered at night, but it works so nicely with her bedtime that I am scared to change it, you know? But, I am still reading on in this thread, learning learning all the time, so thank you for your gentle speak with me, I am getting a good idea how it works, and your methods are very enticing - just a little scared at the moment of change.


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## Shonahsmom (Mar 23, 2004)

Its kind of funny. A friend of mine used to either laugh or roll her eyes at me all of the time about my schedules and routines. Relatively speaking, I'm flexible about it.... but I do not have the luxury of just letting things happen when they happen. My life demands that I maintain those schedules and routines (which is not to say I prefer it that way). I work full time outside of the house and am a single parent with the added distinction of being the only parent in my child's life... so all child related issues and support for our household are my sole responsibility. Therefore, to make the best out of a not terribly ideal situation, I succumb and submit to schedules to keep my dd and I as happy and healthy as possible.

The fact of the matter is, if I let her stay up until 11:00 at night, there is very little flexibility in what time she can get up in the morning and I end up with a very unhappy kid for the entire day the following day who subsequently has a terrible time falling asleep that night (overtired). My days are really hard enough without setting my dd up to be crabby.

Also for someone like me, who went through serious upheaval for an extended period of time and had not one reliable component to my life, I enjoy the rhythm of our routine.

Anyhow, my friend used to always roll her eyes at me when I'd make mention of needing to leave somewhere to get dd home to bed. She's also a single parent but was able to live for years as a SAHM and part time student. She did allow let sleep happen when it happened when it came to her dd. There was always someone dd could stay at home with so even if my friend had somewhere to be her dd wouldn't have to be woken up, gotten dressed, etc.. That often meant her dd would go to bed at 1:00am and wake at noon the next day.

Well, about 2 months ago she moved out of her mom's, her dd has started school, she's working full time and lo and behold! They're on a schedule. A pretty tight one at that. Sleep is encouraged at a time that ensures a good night's rest and everything else seems to revolve around that. I kind of feel like reminding her of all those times she laughed at me or rolled here eyes at me for being "uptight" about a schedule.... but I won't.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Calm, It sounds to me that what you are doing is fine. I wouldn't change it if it works for you and your child.


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## eminer (Jan 21, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm*
...when 7pm rolls around and i slump in my comfy chair with a book, look over at my hubby, it's like - aaaaahhhhhh...when I pop her into bed, snuggle in with her for half an hour, walk out with a kiss and an "I love you", she goes right to sleep...

If everyone is happy, why change? I love the imagery.


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## oldcrunchymom (Jun 26, 2002)

I have one of each. My son stays up very late but when he gets tired he will brush his teeth, grab a book, and put himself to bed. No fuss at all. My daughter, on the other hand, will stay up very late if I let her but get grouchier and whinier and weirdly hyper and will NEVER put herself to bed until she completely collapses from exhaustion (after driving me and her brother nuts, of course). It's only in the past few weeks that she has finally started admitting when she's tired. Hence I usually put her to bed around 10PM with a routine of vitamin, story, brush teeth. She's allowed to look at books until she falls asleep.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Calm, I agree with the everyone else. If this is working for you and it isn't a struggle then I see no reason to change. Routines arn't bad unless they are forced upon an unwilling person.


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