# Southwest Air, toddlers, seatbelts



## crescentaluna (Apr 15, 2005)

Second try to post this: yeah, i know it's long, but it fits in Activism ...

I am fuming about something that happened a few weeks ago on a Southwest flight, and I'd like to see my righteous indignation turn into a change of airline policy. But, I don't know if that's realistic or if anyone would rally behind that cause.

Let me start with some background and then give my story.

SWAir's policy on infants and toddlers on flights is:
Under 2: may be in a lap or in a carseat.
2 or above: in a carseat or belted into a seat.

Age is the only thing considered. Well, you all here know: Size, not age, is the only way to measure the relative safety of restraint systems. DD is a very petite child; she weighed exactly 25 pounds at this time. A child of 25 pounds is not safe when restrained by only a lap belt in an adult-size seat. A child of this size is not permitted to ride in any automobile, in any state, restrained only by a lap belt. A parent's lap is a far safer place to be - a number of studies prove this.

Well, to be brief, DD and I flew on an oversold and delayed flight from CA to Portland some weeks ago. DD was stressed and freaked, wanted to stay on my lap, and as she is TINY, I just held her. To be honest, she's been on my lap for every one of our 12 or so flights in her short life, including the SW flight *to* CA ten days earlier. On this flight, though, we encountered the Nurse Rached of the air.

This flight attendant's tone and remarks started rude. She insisted that "the child" be buckled in. I did so: DD freaked, screaming at top volume and spasming, trying to escape. I held her down for a few minutes, then muttered "#$% this" and took her back to my lap. Flight attendant ignored us for most of the flight, but at the end, became openly inappropriate. She berated me for more than five minutes.
• I clearly lacked the ability to comprehend simple directions, as I was not immediately obeying her.
• My daughter was two, right? Did I plan to ride with her on my lap when she was 25?
• I needed to wrap my child straight-jacket style in a coat to restrain her and buckle it down. She would happily restrain the child if I couldn't do it.
• Obviously, I habitually drove without using a car seat. That was the problem. My child was as spoiled as she was because I didn't use a car seat.

She also threatened me with arrest and addressed other passengers, telling them that because of ME, the plane would circle Oakland indefinitely, and because of ME, they wouldn't get home. Her tone was ... It's hard to explain, but she was clearly trying to incite passengers to attack me. (Thankfully, that didn't happen. Instead, about five different people later apologized or expressed support. They were fearful to speak out, though: we're all afraid of Homeland Security now ...)

Well, I've written a detailed letter to SWA, telling this tale and asking for 2 things:
-- the flight attendant be reprimanded - If you hate kids and their caregivers so much, seriously, WHY are you in customer service?
-- that they consider improving their toddler seating policy, basing it on what's actually safe

I don't know if this situation will touch anyone's nerve or not, but if it does, well, I'm still royally peeved. I'd like to pursue it as far as possible. What do y'all think? Advice, suggestions? HOW can we get seating policy changed?

Thanks for reading in any case. Just to get it off my chest is something.


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## bjorker (Jul 25, 2005)

I don't know anything about the legal and policy issues, but that flight attendant was ridiculously out of line. Wow. That kind of hostility sounds like a fire-able offense to me.

I'm really sorry that happened. I sure hope you hear from Southwest soon. Sorry that I can't be of help, but I certainly wish you luck!


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

I am very sorry that happened. Sometimes airline staff can be so rude.

I agree that they need to consider the policy, however, I would have to ask why you didn't have a carseat for her, and also, why you didn't know about the policy beforehand?

The thing is, flight attendants are, first and foremost, safety officers. Although their job does have some service duties, their main training is safety.

Although she didn't have the right to make threats, to publicize your case, or say any of the other things she said to you, she did have the right to insist that you follow their policy. That is her job.

If I were you, I would consider taking a slightly different tone- not that the airline and flight attendent were totally in the wrong, but that there are two specific issues here:

1. The use of threats and personal attacks to enforce rules;
2. The question of enforceability of certain rules, especially given size considerations.

The airline is going to want to side with its staff member, especially if this is the first complaint. They need their flight attendants to be strict. So you need to be as diplomatic as possible.

Good luck!


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## MusicLadyToo (Feb 27, 2005)

I agree with mahtob about being diplomatic in your response. The other question I have is that were the fasten seatbelt lights on when she was berating you. I would think that that should be the only time that she had anything to say to you. It's a very fine line to have to walk for your response to what happened and what not. I would like to know how things turn out on this.


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## Fiestabeth (Aug 4, 2006)

Mahtob, I don't believe it is required to have a car seat. And I certainly didn't know of this policy. We flew last July when dd was 2.5. We did buy a seat for her since we had to according to the age regulations, but she never once sat in her own seat on the way there or back.

There was a flight attendant who got pretty annoyed with me on the flight there, because I wouldn't put dd in a separate seat. She kept reiterating that it was airline policy that anyone over two be in their own seat for takeoff and landing, and I kept reiterating that I understood that, but dd was going to scream her head off if I did that, and even demonstrated temporarily by placing dd in the seat. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to let my dd scream for 15 minutes, and I wanted to nurse her during take off and landing to help her ears.

I'm trying to remember what airline we flew. Might have been Southwest, or maybe Delta. I'd have to check our records.

OP, I can definitely commiserate. The flight attendant that I encountered was clearly annoyed, but kept to stating airline policies, not belittling me as a mother! That is so out of line. Keep us posted as to their response.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Fiestabeth, no, it is not required to have a carseat, but if the child must sit alone and is too small for the regular seat, then the mom would have done well to have brought one along. I am just saying, that there was another option that she could have planned for. If Southwest is going to change its policy, they might very well take that one, rather than allow any child to sit on her parent's lap.


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## Kushali (Sep 17, 2006)

I agree the Flight Attendant was out of line, but I believe the rules about "lap children" are actually FAA Regulations, not airline policy. I wasn't able to find anything on the FAA website though. They do have several pages about the safety benefits of car seats and other restraints on planes.

Next time you might look into renting/borrowing a CARES harness. They are specifically designed for kids from 22 to 40 pounds. Too big for a parents lap and too small to be safely restrained by the normal seat belt.


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## Celticqueen (Feb 17, 2007)

Ok, I'm perplexed.

Apparently I'm going to be the first replier to say, I agree with the OP completely!

I would be furious right now and I will always support persuing more parental rights. (and you might be thinking, but not if it's unsafe!)

Obviously the flight attendent SHOULD think it's safe. She doesn't, but she should. Why? Because for goodness' sake a 25 pound two year old and a 25 pound one year old is the same bloody thing.

So it should make no difference how old the child is.

Whatever "policy" this regulation came from, the fact still remains that you were wronged. Or at least I think so.

I'm so sorry this happened.








:

-Caitrin


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## Otterella (Oct 13, 2007)

I think it's easy for those of us who weren't there to look at the story and say "Well, here's what you SHOULD have done." But the reality is, we can all understand what a hassle it is to try to deal with juggling a car seat when travelling. I can completely understand thinking that common sense should prevail over the letter of the law, and will NEVER understand when other people (ie, the flight attendant) don't see it that way. I probably would have done exactly what the OP did with a child that size, regardless of her age. The flight attendant was COMPLETELY out of line. Even if you agree that the child should have been buckled in, there is absolutely no excuse for treating another human being the way she did.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

I fully agree that the flight attendant was in the wrong, in her words, actions, and attitudes.

My point was to say that the OP needs to consider the situation of the FA and the airline when making her own point to them- that she recognizes the need to keep passengers safe.

And carseats are a hassle, but you need one for the car, and you make arrangements for it. The same should go for a child in her own seat.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

I flew with DS just before he turned 3 and although the pilot chose to keep the seatbelt light on the entire flight, I pulled DS into my lap after take off and put him back to land. He was only 27 pounds at the time but I knew the rules when I planned the trip. I didn't want to drag a car seat along as I had one at my destination.

I think it's a scary time to fly with kids. I was pretty freaked out that he'd start crying over having to sit in his own seat and then they'd kick us off for him crying. (I've read this happens) Luckily, it didn't and he was ok with just cuddling from the side. I would press on to have her reprimanded if nothing else. ALthough, I do think it'd be wise that they account for weight rather than age, that's not going to make them any money.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Celticqueen* 
Obviously the flight attendent SHOULD think it's safe. She doesn't, but she should. Why? Because for goodness' sake a 25 pound two year old and a 25 pound one year old is the same bloody thing.

So it should make no difference how old the child is.


So then you agree if it's okay to forward face a 20lb 18month old, it's also okay to forward face a 20lb 6 month old. It's the same bloody thing, and it should make no difference how old the child is.


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## theretohere (Nov 4, 2005)

Sorry that she was so harsh.
It is the policy though, that she should have been in her own seat.


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

The flight attendant was clearly inappropriate.

I do not however think they should change the laws about restraint. And airplane isn't a car. An airplane crashing isn't like a car crashing. A carseat won't really help.
And the seats are small enough there is no way I can comfortably put ds' carseat on a plane and have enough room left for my seat. Those things are small!

I totally think the letter and a phone call detailing your experiences are in order. I hope you got her name.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Megan- no, an airplane is not a car. Many injuries and deaths of small children happen during turbulence, or during bad takeoff or landing, NOT only during a fatal crash. And actually, most crash landings do not result in the deaths of all passengers in a ball of fire- very many of them result in minimal injuries for all involved- usually thanks to the professionalism of the crew and the use of seat-belts.

This is why it's so important to have a child restrained either in a belt extension on you, or in a carseat, or in their own seat, at those times.

Again, this in no way justifies the rudeness of the flight attendant. But it may help the OP understand why she was so upset. A child flying around the cabin during a sudden drop in altitude could injure not only himself, but also others.

I fly a lot. I know how stressful it is to fly with a kid. I do not like having my kid in a carseat. But I also know that one little drop in altitude during descent could cause my child to fly out of my arms just like that and hit the top of the cabin. If we stabilize, I can pick her up and hopefully, she's not doing too bad. If we don't, she flies up again.

Ugh. It's such a horrible scenario to contemplate. Sure, if the plane goes up in a ball of flames, we all die. But in that case, why bother with seat-belts, even, right?

And in fact, same goes for cars. Many more people die in car crashes than in plane crashes, but more car crashes result in minor injuries than result in deaths. We wear seat-belts for those in-between risks, not just in case we get in a head-on with a 16 wheeler, you know?


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## theretohere (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mahtob* 
Megan- no, an airplane is not a car. Many injuries and deaths of small children happen during turbulence, or during bad takeoff or landing, NOT only during a fatal crash. And actually, most crash landings do not result in the deaths of all passengers in a ball of fire- very many of them result in minimal injuries for all involved- usually thanks to the professionalism of the crew and the use of seat-belts.

This is why it's so important to have a child restrained either in a belt extension on you, or in a carseat, or in their own seat, at those times.

Again, this in no way justifies the rudeness of the flight attendant. But it may help the OP understand why she was so upset. A child flying around the cabin during a sudden drop in altitude could injure not only himself, but also others.

I fly a lot. I know how stressful it is to fly with a kid. I do not like having my kid in a carseat. But I also know that one little drop in altitude during descent could cause my child to fly out of my arms just like that and hit the top of the cabin. If we stabilize, I can pick her up and hopefully, she's not doing too bad. If we don't, she flies up again.

Ugh. It's such a horrible scenario to contemplate. Sure, if the plane goes up in a ball of flames, we all die. But in that case, why bother with seat-belts, even, right?

And in fact, same goes for cars. Many more people die in car crashes than in plane crashes, but more car crashes result in minor injuries than result in deaths. We wear seat-belts for those in-between risks, not just in case we get in a head-on with a 16 wheeler, you know?









:


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## yanksNYC (Jan 21, 2003)

I agree the flight attendat's attitude was out of line and deserves diciplinary action for that alone. However, it is FAA policy and therefore violating it is a violation of federal law, or something along those lines. That does not excuse her behaviour!

The FAA policy is twisted -- but for other reasons. While there are federal mandates for securing every item on the plane (down to the coffeepots!) -- children under two are not required to be secured AT ALL. And the OP is right, there is no way that seatbelt can do its job on such a small child.

What we really need is a policy that requires airlines to provide a car seat/adapter of some sort (such as the CARES harness someone mentioned), so that eveyone may ride safely.

In the meantime, however, the only thing parents can do to protect their children is bring their car seat on every flight, every time, until the child is large enough to safely use the seat belt. I have flown countless flights -- long and short - and dragged HUGE car seats (two, in fact!) through the airport every time, and on connecting train trips as well (UGH.)

But my children are comfortable being in their own seat, travel happier, and safe in the event of a survivable crash. And, as someone else has already pointed out, survivable crashes DO happen, though they are rare.

Once you get in the habit of bringing the car seat, you actually get pretty used to it. If you plan on travelling more than a few times, investing in a wheeled carrier can be worth it. There is one called GoGo Kidz which I use and really like. You can also jury-rig many luggage carriers or wheeled suitcases/strollers.

Back to the topic of Southwest - I think I had the same &^%$* flight attendant several years ago! She yelled at me and told me my then 2 1/2 year old could DIE because of me. What horrid thing was I doing? Installing her car-seat rear-facing (because she was about 28 lbs, WELL under the 33 lb limit on her seat for rear facing, on airplanes and in cars - I HAD done my research before flying; apparently the flight attendant had not!) Her attitude was just as loud and b(*&*y as the OP described. Maybe they are sisters!!

Fly Safe!


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## yanksNYC (Jan 21, 2003)

I agree the flight attendat's attitude was out of line and deserves diciplinary action for that alone. However, it is FAA policy and therefore violating it is a violation of federal law, or something along those lines. That does not excuse her behaviour!

The FAA policy is twisted -- but for other reasons. While there are federal mandates for securing every item on the plane (down to the coffeepots!) -- children under two are not required to be secured AT ALL. And the OP is right, there is no way that seatbelt can do its job on such a small child.

What we really need is a policy that requires airlines to provide a car seat/adapter of some sort (such as the CARES harness someone mentioned), so that eveyone may ride safely.

In the meantime, however, the only thing parents can do to protect their children is bring their car seat on every flight, every time, until the child is large enough to safely use the seat belt. I have flown countless flights -- long and short - and dragged HUGE car seats (two, in fact!) through the airport every time, and on connecting train trips as well (UGH.)

But my children are comfortable being in their own seat, travel happier, and safe in the event of a survivable crash. And, as someone else has already pointed out, survivable crashes DO happen, though they are rare.

Once you get in the habit of bringing the car seat, you actually get pretty used to it. If you plan on travelling more than a few times, investing in a wheeled carrier can be worth it. There is one called GoGo Kidz which I use and really like. You can also jury-rig many luggage carriers or wheeled suitcases/strollers.

Back to the topic of Southwest - I think I had the same &^%$* flight attendant several years ago! She yelled at me and told me my then 2 1/2 year old could DIE because of me. What horrid thing was I doing? Installing her car-seat rear-facing (because she was about 28 lbs, WELL under the 33 lb limit on her seat for rear facing, on airplanes and in cars - I HAD done my research before flying; apparently the flight attendant had not!) Her attitude was just as loud and b(*&*y as the OP described. Maybe they are sisters!!

Fly Safe!


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## inthezoo (Jul 28, 2005)

Your flight attendant was out of line and I too agree that needs to be addressed.

We fly SouthWest. I have flown alone with both my kids so only one could ride as a lap child. I tried to install my car seat for my 2yr old (26lb) and I could not get the belt to tighten while keeping my 6 mo old and 2yr old safe. There was no one to help me hold the kids and I had to give up and let them check the car seat.

I had a terrible time with my son screaming and wiggling free from the belt. He could get is foot behind him and sent the cushion/flotation device flying before I could even reach. I too was worried about being kicked off the plane. We sat over the wing and it was so loud I don't think anyone could hear us, at least no one said anything. On the next flight I put him in overalls and snapped the seatbelt inside so he couldn't slip free. I had no choice since I could not hold both of them. He did ok that way.


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## yanksNYC (Jan 21, 2003)

Just further confirms that i will never ever fly southwest again...rude flight attendants seem to be commmon! I consider it extremely RUDE that no one offered to help a parent with two small children install a car seat! I have always had a flight attendant or other passenger help out by holding the baby. (On my one Southwest flight, my husband was with me, so it wasn't an issue.)

Seatbelt through overallls -- good trick


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## DashsMama (Dec 1, 2001)

I suspect that she was just trying to enforce FAA rules, too bad she was a rude [email protected]#$% about it. I'm often told (very kindly and apologetically though) that because of FAA rules I can't have my baby in his sling during takeoff and landing. Here's what I do... I agree with the flight attendant. Take him out while we are taxi-ing, and put him right back in the sling as soon as the flight attendants sit down to buckle up for take off, and can't see us anymore. Call me a criminal!

I hope Crescantaluna can get, at the very least, an apology for the rude behavior she experienced. I also want to suggest that she fly Alaska next time. We often travel between PDX and CA and always use Alaska Airlines. They have great service, super friendly flight attendants, local NW beer and wine, and usually as cheap or cheaper fares than Southwest!


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

She was rude and out of line, but it's not safe for a child to be unrestrained in any moving vehicle, airplanes included. Next time take a car seat, which she is used to.


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