# Absolutely Disgusting Affront to Women- Virginia Mamas, Please Help Fight This!



## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/1/6/194434/1328

Quote:

Imagine the following scenario. You are at home alone at 8:00 on a Friday night. You are 8 weeks pregnant. All of a sudden, you begin to experience heavy cramping and bleeding. You realize with shock and sadness that you are probably experiencing a miscarriage. You are overwhelmed with grief and surprised by the intensity of physical pain involved. When your partner comes home, you break the sad news to him. Over the next few hours, you suffer pain, cramping, and intermittent bleeding. Exhausted, you finally fall asleep in your partner's arms around 4 AM. You sleep until noon.

Guess what? You just earned yourself up to 12 months in jail and a $2,500 fine. Why? Because you failed to call the cops and report your miscarriage within 12 hours.

True? Not yet. But if Delegate John Cosgrove (R-78) has his way, HB1677 will become law in a few short months, and this scenario will be reality for many women in Virginia. Incredulous? Outraged? Read on below the jump for more information on this odious bill.
I feel for any mother who has to live with this sort of law. I had a miscarriage, and can't imagine having to telephone the police to "report it".

If you scroll down on the linked page, there is info on fighting this bill.

Annette


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## Simplicity (Mar 24, 2004)

This bill is highly upsetting!


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## ladyluna (May 13, 2004)

That is so freaking scary. We all need to band together as women during these frightening times and tell the governent to KEEP THEIR LAWS OFF OUR BODIES. This story makes me ill.


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## nova22 (Jun 26, 2004)

Disgusting.

I live in Virginia. When I suffered this terrible pain my sole comfort was knowing that I was safe and comfortable in the privacy of my own home, not being poked and prodded. Sickening! Thank you for the heads up.

ETA: Does this mean you would HAVE to get a D&C? I find that a very intrusive procedure if there are no complications and would prefer to let the miscarriage happen naturally. According to the site you linked to, The Commonwealth of Virginia Fetal Death Report requires the sex of the fetus as well as any malformations.


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## greenluv (Jul 26, 2002)

I can't believe the laundry list of info they want about the woman









This is so insulting I don't even have words







:


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## chalupamom (Apr 15, 2002)

Just sent to Rep. Cosgrove:

FYI: I am currently experiencing my period and/or a fetal death. Because I am a sexually active married adult who believes in following both the letter and the spirit of the laws of our fine Commonwealth (especially the excellent proposed laws not alas not yet passed by our superlative legislative body) I have decided to inform you directly, since you have clearly given these matters so much of your mental bandwidth.

Please understand and accept my apoligies for reporting to you (in the absence of other appropriate and qualified law enforcement personnel) outside of the 12 hour reporting period. My two living children (assuming I am experiencing a fetal death - hard to tell, biology being what it is!! Better safe than sorry, right?) have had two days of emissions of GI-related distress of almost every imaginable sort and I have been rather preoccupied with their comfort. Once the momentous occasion comes to pass that your fine bill is made law, I shall report my menses and/or fetal deaths directly to the Sheriff's department of County of Albemarle. In the meantime, I look forward to corresponding with you every 28 to 30 days.

Yours truly,
Chalupamom

Sent to my own delegate:

I am writing in reference to HB1677, which proposes to criminalize the failure to report a miscarriage. I cannot stress enough how appalled I am that such a bill would ever see the light of day for consideration.

If, as Rep. Cosgrove has stated, the bill's intent is to reduce the number of "trashcan babies" born and then tragically abandoned in the Commonwealth either he or the bill's typist must somehow have become confused. There is a difference between giving birth to and abandoning a live infant and suffering a miscarriage (whether under a physician's care or not) at an early gestation. Does Rep. Cosgrove believe that woman who miscarry are "abandoning" their "products of conception" in some way? Does he not recognize the difference between a live birth and the tissue resulting from a miscarriage at 12 weeks? His assertion as to the bill's purpose is so ridiculous as to be insulting. Does he really believe the Commonwealth's voters to be so incredibly uninformed as to not know the difference, either?

There is a slippery slope from this bill to judging a woman's behaviour while (knowingly or not) pregnant and, furthermore, an unjust intrusion into a private moment. The state has simply no business in these matters, as no social or medical conclusions may be drawn from them.

Many - if not most - states collect data on pregnancy loss from 20 weeks on because the underlying pathalogy can be researched, identified and addressed. The vast majority of early miscarriages have no identifiable cause and, therefore, have little or no value in data collection. Given that there is no value, why is Rep. Cosgrove suggesting that it be collected in such a cruel, insensitive manner and criminalizing how a woman may respond? This bill shows an appalling and inexcuseable disrespect toward women.

I ask that you disavow HB1677 in the immediate term and insist that you vote against it. To do otherwise would indicate a serious lack of interest in the best personal interests of your constituency, not to mention the best interests of the Commonwealth as a whole.

Chalupamom


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## nova22 (Jun 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chalupamom*
Just sent to Rep. Cosgrove:

FYI: I am currently experiencing my period and/or a fetal death. Because I am a sexually active married adult who believes in following both the letter and the spirit of the laws of our fine Commonwealth (especially the excellent proposed laws not alas not yet passed by our superlative legislative body) I have decided to inform you directly, since you have clearly given these matters so much of your mental bandwidth.

Please understand and accept my apoligies for reporting to you (in the absence of other appropriate and qualified law enforcement personnel) outside of the 12 hour reporting period. My two living children (assuming I am experiencing a fetal death - hard to tell, biology being what it is!! Better safe than sorry, right?) have had two days of emissions of GI-related distress of almost every imaginable sort and I have been rather preoccupied with their comfort. Once the momentous occasion comes to pass that your fine bill is made law, I shall report my menses and/or fetal deaths directly to the Sheriff's department of County of Albemarle. In the meantime, I look forward to corresponding with you every 28 to 30 days.

Yours truly,
Chalupamom

Sent to my own delegate:

I am writing in reference to HB1677, which proposes to criminalize the failure to report a miscarriage. I cannot stress enough how appalled I am that such a bill would ever see the light of day for consideration.

If, as Rep. Cosgrove has stated, the bill's intent is to reduce the number of "trashcan babies" born and then tragically abandoned in the Commonwealth either he or the bill's typist must somehow have become confused. There is a difference between giving birth to and abandoning a live infant and suffering a miscarriage (whether under a physician's care or not) at an early gestation. Does Rep. Cosgrove believe that woman who miscarry are "abandoning" their "products of conception" in some way? Does he not recognize the difference between a live birth and the tissue resulting from a miscarriage at 12 weeks? His assertion as to the bill's purpose is so ridiculous as to be insulting. Does he really believe the Commonwealth's voters to be so incredibly uninformed as to not know the difference, either?

There is a slippery slope from this bill to judging a woman's behaviour while (knowingly or not) pregnant and, furthermore, an unjust intrusion into a private moment. The state has simply no business in these matters, as no social or medical conclusions may be drawn from them.

Many - if not most - states collect data on pregnancy loss from 20 weeks on because the underlying pathalogy can be researched, identified and addressed. The vast majority of early miscarriages have no identifiable cause and, therefore, have little or no value in data collection. Given that there is no value, why is Rep. Cosgrove suggesting that it be collected in such a cruel, insensitive manner and criminalizing how a woman may respond? This bill shows an appalling and inexcuseable disrespect toward women.

I ask that you disavow HB1677 in the immediate term and insist that you vote against it. To do otherwise would indicate a serious lack of interest in the best personal interests of your constituency, not to mention the best interests of the Commonwealth as a whole.

Chalupamom


:LOL and


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Keep writing those letters- maybe he and his fellows will see what a stupid law this is
Annette


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## leavesarebrown (Apr 22, 2003)

I didn't read the legislative language of this bill, so I don't really know what I'm talking about here, but I do know there is currently (and has been) an effort to legalize CPMs in Virginia. Any chance this is an attempt to fight against home birth in Virginia? Or to better "catch" midwives practicing illegally/alegally?


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## leavesarebrown (Apr 22, 2003)

Okay, I wrote my delegate. I've had several very early miscarriages. I cannot imagine...


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## SeanaRain (May 25, 2004)

Okay, after reading the bill in question I just have to say that I do not believe that the Rep is trying to make miscarriages illegal. I really think that this is just a very poorly written bill.

That said, I do not want this bill to pass in its current form. It could be a slippery slope. Even if no woman is ever charged/convicted, the fact that it is on the books could work against women's rights.

I do have to say that I do not believe that a woman who suffers a miscarriage would ever be convicted (or even charged really) under this law. And even if she were convicted, I do not believe that it would stand under appeal.

The language of the bill just bites!


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I so disgusted I do not know what to say.

I suppose I would be in jail for losing my baby at home.

sick!


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## chalupamom (Apr 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SeanaRain*
Okay, after reading the bill in question I just have to say that I do not believe that the Rep is trying to make miscarriages illegal. I really think that this is just a very poorly written bill.

That said, I do not want this bill to pass in its current form. It could be a slippery slope. Even if no woman is ever charged/convicted, the fact that it is on the books could work against women's rights.

I do have to say that I do not believe that a woman who suffers a miscarriage would ever be convicted (or even charged really) under this law. And even if she were convicted, I do not believe that it would stand under appeal.

The language of the bill just bites!


SeanaRain, it turns out your thoughts on the bill being poorly written are accurate. Or at least being adopted by Rep. Cosgrove himself. I received the following response from him (or his office) this morning:

Quote:


Hello:

I am Delegate Cosgrove and I wish to respond to the allegations that have been made by those who have emailed and called my office. The intent of House Bill 1677 is to require the notification of authorities of a delivery of a baby that is dead and the mother has not been attended by a medical professional. This bill was requested by the Chesapeake Police Department in its legislative package due to instances of full term babies who were abandoned shortly after birth. These poor children died horrible deaths and all that the person responsible could be charged with is the improper disposal of a human body.

The requirement for twelve hours comes from the method that a coroner would use to determine if the child had been born alive or dead. After twelve hours, it becomes next to impossible to determine if the child was alive due to decomposition gasses that build up in the body.

My bill in no way intends that a woman who suffers a miscarriage should be charged for not notifying authorities. The bill in no way mentions miscarriages, only deliveries. After discussing the bill again with our legislative services lawyers, I will include language that will define the bill to apply only to those babies that are abandoned as stated above.

I would never inflict this type of emotional torture on a woman who has suffered such a traumatic event as a miscarriage, and I am confident that the General Assembly of Virginia would also not pass such a terrible imposition on a woman.

I hope that you will understand the original intent of this bill. This bill has nothing to do with abortion, contraception and especially miscarriages. If you were alarmed by this bill or by the websites, I am sorry. I hope that this will explain the concept and intent of this bill.

Sincerely,

John A. Cosgrove
The original bill was, indeed, crap. And the way it was written it did, indeed, include language that would have allowed - according to the letter of the bill/law - prosecution for abortions, contraception, and miscarriages. I'm glad that the language is being revised and I still think this needs to be watched carefully.

I'm just cynical enough to believe that he got caught on this one and that he thought no one would pick up on what he was doing. The difference between a miscarriage of "the products of conception" and an "infant death" in the Commonwealth of Virginia is already well-defined and I think he is either a poor legislator for not knowing that or too clever for his own good in trying to sneak one past us all.


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## pickle it (May 16, 2004)

Unbelievable.

If a bill worded anything like that ever passed, I would suggest that every woman in the appropriate jurisdiction pick up the phone and call the local police station to inform the authorities every month when they begin menstruating. After a very short time I'm sure the bill would be repealed.


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## SeanaRain (May 25, 2004)

I'm glad to see, that if nothing else, the language of the bill is going to change.

If Virginia does things like Missouri does, the Rep doesn't write his own bills. He types up an abstract of what he wants the bill to say and sends it to a legislative drafting department. The drafters are the ones who really write up the bill. However, he does have to approve the write up.

I guess I just look on the bright side sometimes and I am really hoping he just wasn't aware of the current way that Virginia law describes a fetal death.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Good for you, ladies!
I think it's great that so many letters were written, and that things will change.
Read more here:
http://democracyforvirginia.typepad....l_vigilan.html
Annette


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## heldt123 (Aug 5, 2004)

What it the world??? I could see reporting it after abuse, but making it manditory for all miscarrages?? ?? ?? ?? ? ? ?


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## Simplicity (Mar 24, 2004)

I'm still outraged by his choice of words in this bill and do not trust him one bit.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+32.1-249

The definiton of fetal death:

2. "Fetal death" means death prior to the complete expulsion or extraction from its mother of a product of human conception, regardless of the duration of pregnancy; death is indicated by the fact that after such expulsion or extraction the fetus does not breathe or show any other evidence of life such as beating of the heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles.

The proposed bill:

When a fetal death occurs without medical attendance, it shall be the woman's responsibility to report the death to the law-enforcement agency in the jurisdiction of which the delivery occurs within 12 hours after the delivery. A violation of this section shall be punishable as a Class 1 misdemeanor.

I don't believe the wording was an accident.


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## SweetTeach (Oct 5, 2003)

This is totally disgusting. The erosion of our rights continues.

In the article that was posted in the first post, this really bothered me though:

Quote:

In the 2003 legislative session in Virginia, a law was passed allowing parents to request a "birth certificate" for a stillbirth, a law that is clearly in line with the agenda of anti-abortion extremists to recognize embryonic and fetal personhood.
As a mother who's child was stillborn at 37 weeks gestation, I deserve a certificate of stillbirth if I want one (I can't get one where I live). I am not an anti-abortion extremist by any stretch of the imagination. The author of this article is highly misinformed about the experience of late-term pg loss for families.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Wow. I totally missed that in the link, and I am the original poster (and linker)

I am so sorry for your loss, and I agree that you should have a certificate of stillbirth if you want one.

Annette


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## SweetTeach (Oct 5, 2003)

Thanks Annette. I completely understand the fear that people have about any measures that recognizes the fetus as a human being, however, I feel that everyone should sit down and try and work through this complexity. The pl/pc debate is so stratified/dichotimized that there's (almost) no place for the gray areas, ykwim?
As for the original topic, I plan to write a letter to this delegate. I want him to know how many women think his bill is just disgusting.


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## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

I think ??? this situation is being amended. I got the following email:

Quote:

This really shows the power of blogs these days-reading farther down here's a purported answer from the Rep who started the bill:

Eternal Vigilance is the Price of Liberty: HR1677 - A Reply from Delegate Cosgrove

As of a minute ago, this site has received over 40,000 hits in the past 24 hours, and this story has spread to over 100 blogs and many more hundreds of message boards and email lists. The story's spread from here and DailyKos to countless infertility/miscarriage blogs, to Fark.com, to Atrios and Air America Radio and beyond. I have only begun to scratch the surface of reading the discussions that this has spawned in the blogosphere, but I'm grateful for the response and thankful for the attention that this legislation has been given.

Some thoughts:

A few people have written, essentially, "Why make such a big deal out of this? This bill is SO bad it will surely die in committee, or get voted down, or get vetoed." Sure, bad bills get introduced in every legislature. But some of them become law, and sometimes they become law because ordinary citizens weren't aware of them before they became law.

One commenter wrote, "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty."

Unfortunately, this recent vigilance has kept me awake for far more than 24 hours straight, and I need to drive my parents to a family function many hours away tomorrow, so I'm not going to be able to do justice to this update right now. I didn't want to wait to post this update, though, because it is so important.

I am delighted to report that Delegate Cosgrove has contacted me directly about HB1677. Delegate Cosgrove has been inundated with calls and emails today in response to the viral spread of this story via the internet, and he is doing his best to respond to them.

He has asked me to share his email with you here, and I do so with thanks to him for his time and thought in composing it (emphasis mine):

Dear Maura:

I am Delegate Cosgrove and I wish to respond to your website and the
allegations that have been made by those who have emailed and called my office. The intent of House Bill 1677 is to require the notification of authorities of a delivery of a baby that is dead and the mother has not been attended by a medical professional. This bill was requested by the Chesapeake Police Department in its legislative package due to instances of full term babies who were abandoned shortly after birth. These poor children died horrible deaths. If a coroner could not determine if the child was born alive, the person responsible for abandoning the child could only be charged with is the improper disposal of a human body.

The requirement for the twelve hour notification timeframe comes from the method that a coroner would use to determine if the child had been born alive or dead. After twelve hours, it becomes next to impossible to determine if the child was alive due to decomposition gasses that build up in the body.

My bill in no way intends that a woman who suffers a miscarriage should be charged for not notifying authorities. The bill in no way mentions miscarriages, only deliveries. However, after discussing the bill again with our legislative services lawyers, I have decided to include language that will define the bill to apply only to those babies that are claimed to have been stillborn and that are abandoned as stated above.

I would never inflict the type of emotional torture on a woman who has suffered such a traumatic event as a miscarriage by making her notify authorities of her loss. I would also never impose criminal sanctions on a woman who has gone through this loss. And I am confident that the General Assembly of Virginia would also not pass such a terrible imposition on a woman. My mother experienced several miscarriages and I have other friends who have been devastated by losing their children through miscarriages.

On a final note, your website advocates the use of emailing comments to my office. As for the emails that I have received, I have answered a few and will forward a similar explanation to those who sent them. I always seek to receive emails that express a point of view either in support or in opposition to an issue. The majority of emails I have received from this site, however, have been extremely abusive, condescending, and mean-spirited. That is never the way to communicate with another person and I hope that civil discourse would be your desire as well.

I hope that you will post this explanation on your website and understand the original intent of this bill. If you feel the need to discuss this matter more fully, please do not hesitate to call. Thank you for your time and consideration of this matter.

Sincerely,

John A. Cosgrove

I have sent him an initial reply thanking him for his thoughtful response, and I plan to spend some time tomorrow night or Sunday in composing a more substantive post which addresses the information he provides here and asks him questions about the revisions he plans.

For now, Delegate Cosgrove, if you're reading, the most important thing I want to say is thank you for listening to the concerns of so many people, even those who expressed their concern angrily or even abusively. I am heartened to hear that you plan narrow the scope of HB1677 to more closely fit your stated intent.

If you'd like to continue this dialogue with Delegate Cosgrove, please consider sharing your questions or concerns in comments. This issue has brought together so many people in a positive way today - Republicans, Democrats, Greens, Libertarians, pro-choice, and pro-life commenters found much common ground in objection to the original format of the bill. I think that's a Good Thing, as is Delegate Cosgrove's outreach to us here.

If you all could continue the eternal vigilance while I sleep now, I'd appreciate it. 

Posted by Maura in VA on January 08, 2005 at 02:59 AM in 2005
Legislative Agenda | Permalink | Comments (2) | TrackBack (0)

Lesgislative Sentry


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

Are you sure its not an internet rumor? (The email from Cosgrove)

Because Legislative is spelt wrong...


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## Simplicity (Mar 24, 2004)

That "email" is actually from a website someone posted earlier. One of the blogs that first posted this story... it can be found here: http://democracyforvirginia.typepad....l_vigilan.html


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## Simplicity (Mar 24, 2004)

Sorry, I thought you meant the bill being a hoax! So I edited my post!

Regardless of the email being a hoax or not I wouldn't trust Cosgrove.

I think people should continue to write and send emails.


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## Simplicity (Mar 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *darsmama*
Are you sure its not an internet rumor? (The email from Cosgrove)

Because Legislative is spelt wrong...

That last part "Lesgislative Sentry"

Is not a part of his email anyway. I looked at the blog and I didn't see it on there. Cosgrove's email had the spelling right.


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## Annalisasmom (Jul 9, 2004)

I got the same form email from cosgrove. I am going to respond back to him reguarding the wording of this bill. It needs to be changed.


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## leavesarebrown (Apr 22, 2003)

The bill has been withdrawn. Here's the story:

http://www.augustafreepress.com/stories/storyReader$30532

Of course they are claiming their intent was never to make women who have had miscarriages report to police... But hey, good work everyone who wrote in! (My dh wrote more letters than I did on this one!)

-Mama in Alexandria VA


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## Electra375 (Oct 2, 2002)

http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories...0370&ran=43780

Here is another account of the withdrawl.

Way to go internet!!!

Now VA just needs to get the General Assembly to pass the bill for CPMs into law! I've posted in the Finding Your Tribes and here.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...07#post2508807


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