# Do You Use Child Leashes?



## Addy's Mom (Nov 20, 2009)

I'm very against them, but maybe I'm overreacting. Do you use one? Why? Is it compatible with attachment parenting principles? If you don't use one, how do you ensure your children's safety when outside, in crowds or near busy streets?


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## da-tamsta (May 31, 2010)

Ya know, when my aunt had her 4th of 5 children and the little girl started walking my aunt invested in one. This kid would be gone in a new york minute. No matter how many eyes were on her she would be gone at top speed. Seriously. The leash just slowed her down enough. (BTW, the fifth kid didn't need a leash either). I've not had any experience other than that, but it worked and she eventually grew out of it. My child follows rules and holds hands in public. Not allowed to not especially near busy streets. He is sorta clingy in strange situations or in a crowd so I am lucky and don't worry about it a lot.


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## MariesMama (Sep 26, 2008)

My DD has one that we use in very busy malls or in airports. She loves it and it's much easier than trying to juggle her hand (especially for my tall DP), carryons, carseat, etc. She's perfectly content using it, whereas she sometimes freaks out about holding hands.

It's a bit embarrassing when she pretends to be a puppy while on the leash - the harness part is a stuffed puppy, but she takes it a bit far sometimes


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Well, they're certainly more AP than forcing a child to ride in a stroller all the time just because they haven't developed impulse control.

They can be a useful tool for supporting a developmental need to explore before the developmental ability to not run into traffic starts.

I haven't needed one, but I'm a relatively healthy SAHM with a fairly laid back dd.

DD has been in a harness once when my mom watched her for me at a sport activity. I watched her in it and she didn't mind it at all (and dd is NOT a suffer-in-silence type), but she did seem to be aware of it and stay closer to my mom. She wasn't going to the limit of the lead and staying close because she couldn't go farther, the harness just seemed to cue her in that this was a time to stay by the adult watching her.

Oh, and my dd is also tall for her age and I'm average for mine, so it's more comfortable for us to hold hands than it would be otherwise. And she stays on the sidewalk when she plays the run-away-from-mommy game. If she was one of those kids who drifts towards the road (or goes directly into traffic) she would've been in a harness and lead a year ago.


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## elmh23 (Jul 1, 2004)

I LOVE CHILD LEASHES! I never used one with my first, who would listen when out in public and LOVED being held. But my second was the opposite! He couldn't stand to be restrained (in arms or stroller) and couldn't listen when left to walk. Without the leash, we would have easily gotten hurt when I was the only other adult around (esp. when I got pregnant with number 3.) Now that baby number 3 is here, if I take all three kids to someplace like the zoo or aquarium, ds1 has his backpack (aka leash) on and I have it in my hands at all times. It's just not worth the risk of him getting lost because I have other children I need to keep an eye on aswell.


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## Lisa85 (May 22, 2006)

I used one when dd1 was about 18 months and I had a newborn. I see them the same as strollers, high chairs, swings, etc. They come in quite handy at times when used appropriately. I dont see the difference between strapping your kid in a stroller or to your back and using a leash. All are ways to safely contain your dc, and there will always be people who misuse it and give it bad rap.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

I've always sort of chuckled about it and never used one myself but I've been considered one lately. I have this impulsive 5 yr old who takes off constantly these days. She also argues with me a lot in. It seems to be quite an independence phase and I'm fine with it. BUT after countless store employees and strangers return my daughter to me because she rounds them up to help her find me, it gets old. I know she is resourceful enough to ask for help finding me since she seems to have the worst most backwards upside down sense of direction, these kind, helpful strangers sure give me the dirtiest looks and act like I'm a horrible human being for letting my precious child out of my sight.


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## Lucy Alden (Jun 15, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elmh23* 
I LOVE CHILD LEASHES!

Me too! My first was very cautious and never wandered more than a few feet away from me. And since she was my first I could watch her the whole time. DS1 however, total runner. He'd run 8 miles down a road before even thinking of looking back. So yeah, we have a monkey backpack and he loves it. Makes things so much easier. And now that DS2 is running we're going to invest in a second one.









And I agree with Sapphire that its much more AP than a stroller. My DSs can interact with their environment and get some exercise instead of being cooped up in a stroller.


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## stormborn (Dec 8, 2001)

If you had asked me a few years ago I would have been against them, but then dd2 came along







. She'll hold her sisters sometimes but if I try to hold her hand she instantly falls to the ground screaming every. single. time. Principle kinda goes out the window when the baby is boneless and wailing in the middle of the crosswalk.


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

I used one with my first. He wanted to be walking (so no stroller), hated holding hands, etc. He was perfectly happy with his bear backpack leash on. Ds2 it was never an issue, he was happy in the stroller or holding hands. We'll see with dd...


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## leighi123 (Nov 14, 2007)

I think they are weird. We have a dog and it jsut seems strange to have a leash on a child!

I hold ds's hand, or wear him, we dont use a stroller except for theme parks, and mostly he walks.
I play 'red light green light' a lot and he knows what 'red light' means.
He has also been taught how to safely cross the road, which at his age involves holding hands, so he wont cross the road without me.

In parking lots he rides in the cart or holds hands, no exceptions allowed which he knows.

I've never had a reason to put him on a leash!


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## fresh_veggie (Jan 27, 2009)

No personal experience, but most kids I've known with leashes love their leashes. I knew a little boy who wanted to wear his monkey one to bed because he loved it so much (he didn't get to though).

I think it's better than being forced to be in a stroller, and easier than holding if the child doesn't want to be held or hold hands.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

I think you're over reacting. I used one with one of my three kids (not really a "leash," but a Maya Wrap looped around his waste. He learned to run at 10 months old and would run in a straight line until he ran into something - it was like his legs were going before his feet even hit the ground. He was also fiercely independent and would scream incessantly if in the sling when he didn't want to be, and he thought strollers were the equivalent of prisons laced with caustic acid. Handholding was a no go too. Without the sling as leash, we would have been house bound for a good two years. There was no way I could safely chase him when I was pregnant with DD or when DD was a newborn in the sling - no way. The leash reminded him that I was behind him. He would get to the end of it and feel the tug and it would remind him to slow down.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Yes. Because over the age of 2 I want my kids to walk, and I think it's cruel to hold their arms at a 180 degree angle.


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## Multimomma (Jan 25, 2008)

Eclipse, your kid sounds like mine!









OP, I've had eight kids. Some do great on their own, stay with me, never run off. I have two that were seriously







scary. My second could get out of a stroller (high chair/car seat) at the drop of a hat...and be gone in ten seconds. That wasn't something I wanted to deal with, and the strap would help set that boundary without forcing her to be MY extension. We were connected.

My fifth loved the maya wrap, until he was done. Then he was DONE. So the wrap made a great strap!


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## Spirit Dancer (Dec 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *leighi123* 
I think they are weird. We have a dog and it jsut seems strange to have a leash on a child!

I hold ds's hand, or wear him, we dont use a stroller except for theme parks, and mostly he walks.
I play 'red light green light' a lot and he knows what 'red light' means.
He has also been taught how to safely cross the road, which at his age involves holding hands, so he wont cross the road without me.

In parking lots he rides in the cart or holds hands, no exceptions allowed which he knows.

I've never had a reason to put him on a leash!

I feel the same way but I have three children four and under. I do not like strollers or leashes , tbh.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

I have never used one, and probably never will (my 4th child is 3 - so he is past the toddler stage for the most part). That said, I now DO see how they can be helpful, and can look back and recall times when a harness would have been nice to have (like at a crowded festival, etc).TBH, it was past threads here on MDC where I may have argued the un-necessity of them that in turn were what changed my mind and made me see it from another perspective. I do hope to have another kid, or two - so I guess I can't say _never_ now that I view them as a useful tool, 'cause I may just try one someday.


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## elmh23 (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *leighi123* 
I think they are weird. We have a dog and it jsut seems strange to have a leash on a child!

I hold ds's hand, or wear him, we dont use a stroller except for theme parks, and mostly he walks.
I play 'red light green light' a lot and he knows what 'red light' means.
He has also been taught how to safely cross the road, which at his age involves holding hands, so he wont cross the road without me.

In parking lots he rides in the cart or holds hands, no exceptions allowed which he knows.

I've never had a reason to put him on a leash!

Honestly, this is all because you have a compliant child. My first was that way and it's great. My second loves "red light, green light" unless we're out in public and and then "red light" turns in to "run faster light." It took until he was almost 3 for him to understand that he is not allowed to go in the street unless a parent is right next to him. Parking lots are my personal hell for similar reasons (though it's slowly getting better now!)

ETA: Our leash is a bear backpack harness that ds LOVES, so very un-dog like.


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## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
Yes. Because over the age of 2 I want my kids to walk, and I think it's cruel to hold their arms at a 180 degree angle.

This. We're going to the zoo Friday and I don't want to have to force DD to sit in a stroller for 3 hours or hold her arm over her head. With the leash she has more freedom than with either option and I don't have to worry about her bolting into a crowd.


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## *04Mom07* (May 21, 2006)

I used one with my first child because he was a runner. He could also climb out of any restraint system (except his car seat) by 18 months. With my second, I haven't had a need. He stays by me when we are out and about and actually prefers to hold my hand.

As long as you are using it correctly (ie to let your child explore/walk independently) then I think they are fine. However, there are people who yank their children around with them (I even saw someone dragging their child with one once!!







) and I think that's part of what causes the intense reactions to them.


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## lyterae (Jul 10, 2005)

We have a monkey backpack, it's allowed DD the freedom to wander without having to hold a "hand", and me the peace of mind that she can't get far away. I think I can count on one hand the times we've used it, we bought it for a trip to an amusement park and we've used it since for county fairs,etc..


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## FishBounce (Dec 17, 2007)

I love leashes. When my boys, now 9 and 7, were small, I'd leash them both. Neighbors would joke that I was a professional baby walker.
My oldest was pretty OK with holding my hand, but ds2 blew that out of the water. Kid was FAST!
I feel that leashing has its benefits. Both boys were able to explore up close every rock, stick, bug, you name it, that caught his eye. Can't really do that from a stroller.


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## Bokonon (Aug 29, 2009)

I think it's funny that some people are so against them because they remind them of dogs - but why is it no big deal to have a leash on a dog to make sure it doesn't run off, but not a child? Aren't children more important to keep safe than dogs?

I used one with DS, who started walking very late and I wanted to encourage him to walk whenever possible. He was 2, and when we were in crowded places like airports or the zoo, I had him wear his little puppy backpack harness. He didn't mind it, got practice walking without holding his arm up at an uncomfortable angle while holding my hand, and I felt comfortable knowing that he was safe.

And people yank their children by the hand too.


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## ~Amy~ (Jun 7, 2009)

I have not yet felt the need to use one, but I don't judge those who do. They serve a purpose & if you need one, use one. My son usually prefers to be worn, carried or sit in a stroller.


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## Pumpkin_Pie (Oct 10, 2006)

I am absolutely 100% certain that my DS would not be alive today if I hadn't put him on a leash for about six months. I agree that holding hands, using a carrier, using the stroller, teaching them to "STOP!" when necessary are all great, and often a better alternative, but occasionally, you just have to let go of their hand for a second.

Example: One day I was parked in a lot next to a busy street and had a few things in one hand. It was super snowy and the parking lot was pretty much one slushy puddle. There was no place to set my things down, and I needed to unlock the car. I told DS to stay right where he was and to hold my leg and I let go of his hand just long enough to fish my keys out of my pocket and unlock the car door and he was about a foot from the traffic. Luckily a stranger was walking by as I dropped everything and ran at him screaming like a crazy woman to "STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!". She heard me and caught him before he got hit, but it was super (as in heart stopping) close. That was one of MANY times that he came waaaaayyyyy too close to getting hit before I finally broke down and had him on the leash for every single trip out for quite a while. I would just pop the harness on as I took him out of the car seat and then loop the strap over my wrist until we were safe again, or back in the car. It was hard to take all of the snide comments and stares, but at least my DS is ALIVE today.

Leashes are hands down one of the most brilliant child safety inventions ever in my mind.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Regarding the discomfort of hand-holding: We did an exercise once in a child development class where one person stood on the table and the other on the ground, and then held hands. The person with their arm up made it like a minute or two without dropping the taller one's hand b/c it was soo dang uncomfortable and almost painful to keep your arm in such an upright position. I can't imagine doing it for more than a couple minutes, much less having to coordinate short little legs to walk - likely feeling pulled around. Surely a harness/leash would be much more comfy.


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## snoopy5386 (May 6, 2005)

we used one for a while when the situation warranted it. Once DD learned to walk she would throw a bloody fit if you tried to wear her or make her ride in the stroller. Hand holding was out as well. We got the leash for a trip to Baltimore's inner harbor where it is literally sidewalk and then a 2 foot drop into the harbor - no fence or barrier of any kind. I decided I didn't want to have to jump in after her so we got the leash. We used it there, in the aquarium (no strollers allowed) and at the airport mostly for 6 months - 1 yr timespan.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

As of this moment I don't use one. I am prepare though, for when/if I do need one. DS is getting to the point where he doesn't want to be held, he doesn't want to be in a stroller, and he doesn't want to hold my hand (no surprises there, seeing as I am 6ft tall) but he _loves_ to explore and just not old enough to really understand why he needs to stay close. I also have a very limited field of vision. I can keep track of him when he is almost literally standing on my feet, but if he is a foot or two away from me I have to rely on hearing. In a crowded space that is not possible, I have good hearing, but not that good.

So yes, leashes are with in the realm of AP in this house. They meet his need to be independent and allow _me_ to stay close to _him_.


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## tntmom (Nov 30, 2007)

I was completely against using a leash/harness on a child until I had mine ds. He is 26 months old and we just purchased one because to be honest I was done constantly running after him and he is NOT okay with being carried or in a stroller. When we are going somewhere he will sit in the wagon which is great but the moment we stop he's out and running.

I think all kids are different. One of my nephew's never had a need for one and that's great....if/when we have another lo it will depend on that child's personality if we will choose to use it again or not.

On a side note my ds LOVES wearing his monkey backpack and wears it around the house without the lease attached.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lucy Alden* 
And I agree with Sapphire that its much more AP than a stroller. My DSs can interact with their environment and get some exercise instead of being cooped up in a stroller.









Well, than forcing a kid into a stroller. I got an umbrella stroller because it's been too hot to have a tiny furnace strapped to me. She now asks to go on walks by saying "toller?"


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

My nephew went through a phase of really needing a harness and refusing to wear one. So instead his family had to deal with a long period of him either screaming in a stroller or running away and scaring them.

The only real breaks they got were when my dh was around because my dh was the only one with the energy to keep running with him.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

The other thing, is one of the many uses of a wrap sling is to tie around your older kid to keep them close. A harness is just a way to avoid dragging your gorgeous sling in the dirt.


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

We have one, and have used it in certain circumstances. #1 the airport. When you live by an airport where arriving 2 hours in advance for even domestic flights is highly recommended, having a kid sitting around in a stroller for the amount of time you end up wading through thousands of people/security and then waiting at a crowded gate seems just downright cruel.

#2 places which are simply not safe for kids. We tend to travel to places which have a lot of historical value/historical places and many of them are simply not safe if your otherwise placid kid might take it into mind to dart. For example, we walked into a historic fort on a recent trip, and directly ahead of the main entrance (about twenty feet in) was an unprotected two-story fall into a courtyard. The kid had actually been holding my hand, but he knows how to wrench his hand away and dart. I saw the ledge and since my choices were to pick him up or put on the backpack leash (and my back was already hurting), the leash it was.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Hey I never thought of using my wrap as a leash!!

We were going to buy a leash yesterday for a trip we're taking but we decided against it. I guess DH & I just felt weird about it, and the only ones at the store were ugly... but we may change our mind down the line (esp. if we can find a cute one!) DS is the only kid & DH & I both go together most places so there's 2 people to watch him most of the time.

We don't usually use a stroller and we don't hold hands except in parking lots. DS runs off a lot but usually DH can chase him while I shop or vice versa. If I have to shop by myself, that's the one time I am likely to use the wrap or the stroller (and I don't think a leash would be beneficial because he could still knock things off the shelves etc. with it on). We spend a lot of time outside (parks, hikes, etc.) so there is no need to leash him but the upcoming trip will involve walks along a cliffside & I'm terrified he'll try going onto the rocks!! So we will put him in the wrap or on DH's shoulders for those parts but now I know I can just wrap my wrap around him too if necessary!! THANKS for the genius idea!!







And sorry for the rambling!!


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## PatienceAndLove (Jan 5, 2008)

I combined the harness and hand holding. To me, it was a secondary tool rather than a primary one. However, I know that my next child will be different, so we will see what happens!


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## blessedwithboys (Dec 8, 2004)

this is one of my clearest memories of ds1's early childhood.

i took him back home to NYC when he was not quite 2. he had JUST gained the ability to stay in the stroller formore than 30 seconds. it was a breeze.

2 yrs later we went home again. he was just shy of 4yo. no more stroller. i thought it would be simple to just hold hands or have him piggyback in the busiest parts of the city.

my dad, who we were visiting, thought otherwise. he went to toys r us the day b4 we hit the city and got me a leash. it was hte kind that went wrist to wrist, they didnt have the cute stuffed animal ones back then (1998)

i of course was way wiser than my father, and told him off in no uncertain terms. i would NOT walk my child like a dog! not AP-mom-of-the-year me! LOL i told him to leave it home.

flash forward a few hours. we were about to cross times square. we got from one side across to the median, and then halfway across the second part and thats when ds saw something flashy, broke free from my hand, and ran free a quarter of the way across times freaking square.

my wonderful father took the leash out of his pocket (i though i told him to leave it home?!) but it on ds, and we walked calmly and safely around manhattan for the rest of the day.

nts, i took the leash back to FL with me.







so, yes, i think a leash can be very AP. it honors the need to walk independently while offering security. that said, my ds2 never needed one, he is much less impulsive than his big bro.


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## sprouthead (Jul 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 
Regarding the discomfort of hand-holding: We did an exercise once in a child development class where one person stood on the table and the other on the ground, and then held hands. The person with their arm up made it like a minute or two without dropping the taller one's hand b/c it was soo dang uncomfortable and almost painful to keep your arm in such an upright position. I can't imagine doing it for more than a couple minutes, much less having to coordinate short little legs to walk - likely feeling pulled around. Surely a harness/leash would be much more comfy.

thanks for sharing! ds1 was never a fan of hand-holding for long.. i got sick of listening to him scream while holding hands or in the stroller, so i decided to try a leash and it was a godsend to both of us. he loved to be able to walk independently and I was so much more comfortable with him doing so now that i could still keep him somewhat close to me.


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## COgirl19 (Dec 26, 2009)

sorry but I think they are degrading. I cringe every time I see one. I can see their utility but I hope to avoid it.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *COgirl19* 
sorry but I think they are degrading. I cringe every time I see one. I can see their utility but I hope to avoid it.

What do you mean by degrading?


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## Addy's Mom (Nov 20, 2009)

Thanks for the feedback. I've got a runner as well, but one-on-one it's never been a big deal. I preferred to carry him or put him up on my shoulders when needed. Plus now he's old enough he is much better at listening.


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Addy's Mom* 
Thanks for the feedback. I've got a runner as well, but one-on-one it's never been a big deal. I preferred to carry him or put him up on my shoulders when needed. Plus now he's old enough he is much better at listening.

And when you only have one it's a whole lot easier. I have 3.


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## childsplay (Sep 4, 2007)

Yup, I used them. Mainly because I had two hands and three kids under three. We lived in a hot climate and wearing them - especially when they were bigger was heat stroke inducing.

I had a long rope with clips on it, I'd clip it around their waists and just hold the end.

One woman remarked to me that she found it so sad.

I said ya, I know, but their funeral's would be even sadder.


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## MammaB21 (Oct 30, 2007)

Haven't read the whole thread yet.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bokonon* 
I think it's funny that some people are so against them because they remind them of dogs - but why is it no big deal to have a leash on a dog to make sure it doesn't run off, but not a child? Aren't children more important to keep safe than dogs?

My thought is that leashes are used for dogs as a way to show authority. It's a 'training' tool, and I don't train my children. If I see a dog on a leash tugging and pulling in the opposite direction, I chalk it up to bad dog ownership or inexperience in dog training. The leash is there to be slightly tugged at any time the dog wonders a bit from your side. You stop, dog stops. You walk, dog walks. You run, dog runs. The dog isn't even supposed to be allowed to poop on walks because you have control over him just from the use of the leash.

Anyway, that's my issue with child leashes. I don't train my children in that way. I encourage them to be free spirits and explore and control their own environment. I tried to follow the continuum concept with DD and that involves not reminding her to 'follow me' or 'stop' or 'don't do that' 'come back'. The theory is that children left to their own devices will establish their own safety level and follow mom closely on their own. With that said, I realize that we don't necessarily live in a safe enough community to practice this 24/7. There are times it's just impossible, like crossing the street or walking through a huge crowed. I also was 'blessed' (hehe) with a very adventurous child. Her personal boundaries were much wider than my own would be and we struggled with that. I think _I_ would have benefited had she had a leash, but in the long run I think it would have been detrimental to her creating her own limits of safety. I can say that now, at 4 years old, her boundaries have narrowed and she's much more cautious than she was as a toddler. I think that's a direct result of her being allowed to absorb her own environment.


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## MoonStarFalling (Nov 4, 2004)

I was always totally against them too, thought they were way strange. But the first time #2 ran off while I was unlocking the car with my hands full in a busy parking lot I immediately went to the store to get a backpack leash. When you've got your hands full with more than one kid you need help. I got over my hatred of baby swings too. Sure most people here just train their kids not to run off via spanking but I wasn't willing to do that. We only used it occasionally for a few months until DD got a little older and understood dangers.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaB21* 
My thought is that leashes are used for dogs as a way to show authority. It's a 'training' tool, and I don't train my children. If I see a dog on a leash tugging and pulling in the opposite direction, I chalk it up to bad dog ownership or inexperience in dog training. The leash is there to be slightly tugged at any time the dog wonders a bit from your side. You stop, dog stops. You walk, dog walks. You run, dog runs. The dog isn't even supposed to be allowed to poop on walks because you have control over him just from the use of the leash.

But (most) people will still use a leash on their dog even if he is perfectly trained. Why? Because it keeps them safe. The leash can be BOTH a training tool & a safety device. I'd find it weird to 'train' your kid on a leash but perfectly acceptable to keep them 'safe' on a leash.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaB21* 
I think _I_ would have benefited had she had a leash, but in the long run I think it would have been detrimental to her creating her own limits of safety.

I think this has been one of my biggest hesitations to use a leash on DS. It sure would make my life a lot easier & it may become necessary to use it for safety reasons, but I prefer him to learn safety limits on his own, and I do see how a leash might interfere with that.


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## elmh23 (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaB21* 
Haven't read the whole thread yet.

My thought is that leashes are used for dogs as a way to show authority. It's a 'training' tool, and I don't train my children. If I see a dog on a leash tugging and pulling in the opposite direction, I chalk it up to bad dog ownership or inexperience in dog training. The leash is there to be slightly tugged at any time the dog wonders a bit from your side. You stop, dog stops. You walk, dog walks. You run, dog runs. The dog isn't even supposed to be allowed to poop on walks because you have control over him just from the use of the leash.

Anyway, that's my issue with child leashes. I don't train my children in that way. I encourage them to be free spirits and explore and control their own environment. I tried to follow the continuum concept with DD and that involves not reminding her to 'follow me' or 'stop' or 'don't do that' 'come back'. The theory is that children left to their own devices will establish their own safety level and follow mom closely on their own. With that said, I realize that we don't necessarily live in a safe enough community to practice this 24/7. There are times it's just impossible, like crossing the street or walking through a huge crowed. I also was 'blessed' (hehe) with a very adventurous child. Her personal boundaries were much wider than my own would be and we struggled with that. I think _I_ would have benefited had she had a leash, but in the long run I think it would have been detrimental to her creating her own limits of safety. I can say that now, at 4 years old, her boundaries have narrowed and she's much more cautious than she was as a toddler. I think that's a direct result of her being allowed to absorb her own environment.

Again, you have one child. When you have two children you are allowing to be "free spirits" and they are going in opposite directions without "realizing" where you are, it's a problem.

I let me dd go where ever and she knew her own boundaries. Ds doesn't give a flip about boundaries and regularly does things that could easily kill him if I wasn't near by.

And now that we've added another one to the family, it's even more imperative that he be on the leash.


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## MammaB21 (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy* 
But (most) people will still use a leash on their dog even if he is perfectly trained. Why? Because it keeps them safe. The leash can be BOTH a training tool & a safety device. I'd find it weird to 'train' your kid on a leash but perfectly acceptable to keep them 'safe' on a leash.

I think this has been one of my biggest hesitations to use a leash on DS. It sure would make my life a lot easier & it may become necessary to use it for safety reasons, but I prefer him to learn safety limits on his own, and I do see how a leash might interfere with that.

Yup, I hear ya on dog leashes. People use them for their dogs safety, for the safety of others, and because in most places it's illegal not too....lol. I was speaking more for why people have a gut reaction when comparing child leashes to dog leashes.

As for child leashes and safety limits, this was my reason for not choosing to use one. But I do understand why other parents have made another decision. Especially when you have one parent to multiple children. My only real issue when I see someone using one is if they are pulling on/tugging at the child/leash or when the parent uses the leash as an excuse to not pay the child any attention. There are plenty of dangerous things a child can get into just 3 feet from you if you're not watching, not to mention that it just makes me sad. I see a sling/wrap and or stroller a little different because it's obvious to the child that it isn't time for exploring but time for observing which triggers a different developmental process. It actually signals dangers in the environment without having to say, "Watch out danger up ahead!" And they can then learn how to avoid those dangers by watching us avoiding them. But again, I can understand the situation some parents are in if they have an active toddler who refuses to be worn or ride in a stroller.


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## MammaB21 (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elmh23* 
Again, you have one child. When you have two children you are allowing to be "free spirits" and they are going in opposite directions without "realizing" where you are, it's a problem.

I let me dd go where ever and she knew her own boundaries. Ds doesn't give a flip about boundaries and regularly does things that could easily kill him if I wasn't near by.

And now that we've added another one to the family, it's even more imperative that he be on the leash.

See my above response. The original OP was asking why we personally do or do not use a leash. I'm just explaining why _I don't_, not trying to insult any other parents choices. And I agree, more children = more escapees.

ETA: just wanted to clarify my original post because it seems it was misunderstood. I don't 'let' my kid/s go wherever they want. DD is expected to stay close by me. I just don't believe that I need to tell her that every time we're out, or hold her hand. I think it's her instinct and the more I hinder that instinct the farther she gets from it. I'm not saying it works for every kid, heck it hardly worked for mine, but it's one thing I strive for.


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## Kat_shoshin (Feb 16, 2007)

It was either that or the stroller - and with a high needs active child the leash gave him the ability to walk safely. I have lost him in large, crowded, unhelpful a store with 2 exits... He was fast enough I only barely caught him once I finally found him. We bought it after that. Now that he is 3 we do not use it, but it is because we no longer have to. Oh yeah, and in international airports we still would.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

AP parenting has never been about appearances over safety.


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## mamatoablessing (Oct 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaB21* 
See my above response. The original OP was asking why we personally do or do not use a leash. I'm just explaining why _I don't_, not trying to insult any other parents choices. And I agree, more children = more escapees.

ETA: just wanted to clarify my original post because it seems it was misunderstood. I don't 'let' my kid/s go wherever they want. DD is expected to stay close by me. I just don't believe that I need to tell her that every time we're out, or hold her hand. I think it's her instinct and the more I hinder that instinct the farther she gets from it. I'm not saying it works for every kid, heck it hardly worked for mine, but it's one thing I strive for.

I think we all strive for children who listen 100% of the time and stay close by us in busy/crowded situations. The reality is that many children do not. When I had my first child, I couldn't imagine using a leash. DD#1 is a good listener and a child who doesn't want to be too far away from me (even at 6 yo). Then came my 2nd child who was born with a spirit that I cannot (nor do I want to) tame. She'd run in an instant. So yes, we bought a harness. One of the stuffed animal backpacks mentioned up-thread.

I ask any parent who disagrees with the harness:

What would you do if your child screamed in the wrap, screamed in the stroller and ran away from you (or dropped to the ground and refused to move) if you tried to hold their hand? What do you do? Stay inside for the next 4 years, punishing everyone in the family by not being able to do anything? Not us. We're on the go all of the time and we like it that way. It's good for the kids to be out and about and not stuck inside all of the time.


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## kcstar (Mar 20, 2009)

We did. It was a teddy bear backpack. We've had times where DS didn't want to leave the car without his "bear hug". It gave him freedom to roam and explore while staying safe.

He's learned enough rules now (staying out of the street, staying close to us, etc) that we haven't used it in a few months.


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## lunamegn (Nov 30, 2004)

I haven't ever used one. But I've never had a child who would take off on me. My kids have always stayed close.


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## momasana (Aug 24, 2007)

We do not use child leashes. It isn't something that works for our family or our parenting philosophy.

But I don't care if anyone else uses them. Every family is different.


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## beru (Nov 19, 2007)

Yes, I have used a leash with my kids about half a dozen times total. I also put them in cages* at night when they were under two years old and unless you are running in AP circles, no one bats an eye at that.

*i.e. cribs

I understand the hesitancy people have toward them, especially here. It may seem to clash with AP practices. I just get irked when people who have no qualms about cribs and other methods of restraining their children for safety (playyards, strollers) get all up in arms about child tethers.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

I don't like the look of them either. I am sure I have a weird thought every time I see one, which is not often around here. But I might just buy one. It turns out that my younger son is a runner, unlike DD, who never went anywhere without me.

A friend nearly lost him at a large national park, while I was holding her newborn. She said she would watch him. In the 10 seconds I didn't pay attention, (because I was holding the newborn and my friend said she'd watch him!) he got pretty far. He went out the restaurant we were sitting in, into the main park area. I couldn't see him. Finally, he came running over when I called out for him in my "really scared mama" voice. I was SO FREAKED OUT! Now, I am considering a leash. Better a horrible looking device than a kid in danger, right?


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

I agree that a crib ("cage") bothers me more than a leash. The other day I say a baby crying and the mother automatically shoved a pacifier in his mouth to shut him up. No attempt was made to pick him up and/or try to see what was wrong. Sorry but that is much, _much_ more offensive and anti-AP than any leash.

I used one briefly with my son and I had one as a baby. As far as I can tell, it didn't do me any harm. My mom was against but my grandmother, who was very small, simply couldn't go anywhere with me on her own. She insisted and my mom relented. My grandmother also had to use a pad in her car because she couldn't see over the dash (in the days before individual adjustable bucket seats). The pictures are actually kind of amusing...

I see a pattern of people using them;

-Some children are "runners", some are not. I had two that were and one who was not. I needed it just for the oldest. By the time I had my youngest, who would also bolt, I could keep an eye on her since her siblings were older and listened. It was harder running after her older brother when I had one, then two smaller ones. My kids are close in age...

-Where you go. I live in a big city with dangerous traffic. I needed it more when we lived in the apartment. When we moved to a house on a quieter street, I never used it.

-How much time you spend in parking lots or other public places. Those of you who live in rural or even suburban communites have less worries.

We also fly a lot so airports are very scary places to lose children, especially before going through security. Even after, you don't want it to happen.

If your lifestyle and children are thus that using a leash are not necessary, congratulations! Believe me, most of us who have, wouldn't if we could get away with it. Like it or not, our children's safety has to come before any superficial claims. Sorry if it's not pretty!

When people say it's degrading, I want to ask them about cribs and diapers. If you think of it, letting your child pee and poo in a diaper is kind of degrading but unless you EC, you don't have a lot of options. I felt the same about cribs and only used Moses baskets. Our next-door neighbors used to put their toy Yorkie in a playpen. I think that's why I never used one of those either...

The only time I've seen leaches is in very obviously necessary situations, like near traffic or in a big areas like shopping malls and airports. One time I overheard some people dissing some parents using one so I said to whomever I was with at the time, loudly enough for them to hear "Oh look! A leach! I had one of those when I was a toddler too!" Hopefully that made them shut up.


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## *Erin* (Mar 18, 2002)

it's interesting to me that the responses of mamas with one child are mostly quite different than the ones from mamas of 2+. when i was a mama to just one, i thought kid leashes were degrading and icky, and I was quite rigidly judgemental of them(and lots of other stuff, fwiw)...now, after having a second child, and expecting #3 in September, I can absolutely see their value.


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

Yes I have used a child leash. We have this bee bag, it also comes in a lot of different designs. Its cute, its functional. Ds carries a diaper, some wipes, a water bottle, and a snack in his own backpack. The leash is detachable, so we don't use it all the time, but he can wear his bag anytime, and there is a handle at the top of the bag, which is great for holding instead of a hand when needed.

I see kids on tethers all the time, I also see folks baby wearing all the time, kids in strollers, kids on bikes (strapped in), kids in carseats etc.

My twin housemates (now 28 yo) remember being tethered at 5 or 6 when they flew to Mexico with their mom (they had two older brothers too, so mom was alone with 4 young boys in Mexico), they have no hard feelings about it and it made them feel safe because they knew they wouldn't get lost.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamatoablessing* 
What would you do if your child screamed in the wrap, screamed in the stroller and ran away from you (or dropped to the ground and refused to move) if you tried to hold their hand? What do you do? Stay inside for the next 4 years, punishing everyone in the family by not being able to do anything? Not us. We're on the go all of the time and we like it that way. It's good for the kids to be out and about and not stuck inside all of the time.

That was pretty much my son. He loved the Ergo - at times; same thing with a hip carry & sling. Most times, though, he would fight them. I can't _imagine_ trying to put him on my shoulders upset. He would tolerate the stroller when completely exhausted. He hated holding hands and he was both a climber and a runner. He quickly learned how to drop.

He was also quick to pick up on the "red light, green light" game and knew "freeze!" from an early age...but the minute something really interesting grabbed his attention he became functionally deaf - he was probably 3 before he could both explore his surroundings AND hear what we were saying if we were not sort of down on his level gazing in his eyes.

We lost him in a toy store once and it was crazy scary.

Where we were walking was often areas with traffic on one side, or crowds.

I really think that particular tool -- at appropriate times, stages, and places -- preserved our relationship because I could really relax and be in the moment with him.

That's one reason I often comment in these threads. If I had just kept a prejudice that in my case was totally based on appearance -- I have no objection to harnesses in strollers, carseats, shopping carts, bouncy chairs, etc., despite them operating largely like straightjackets and "tying the kid down" -- I would have made my life a lot harder. And at that wonderful toddling exploring age, which is still so intense, I sort of hate to see people struggling so hard with a tool we loved.

You have to know your child and yourself. I'm a worrier. My child at that age was a fearless and quick explorer. The leash literally bridged the difference.

I have such fond memories of him finding butterflies waaaay under the leaves at the zoo.







And at almost-5, his dignity is totally intact, he listens, and he is trustworthy about taking directions. He still loves to run and explore though. (and of course he hasn't worn the thing in years







)


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## Vancouver Mommy (Aug 15, 2007)

I had a runner and a newborn simultaniously. We had a little wrist to wrist strap that I used for a short time. I felt bad about it and I got some very dirty looks, but it allowed my dd the freedom to move around without giving me a heart attack.


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## Lit Chick (Aug 15, 2007)

I love my leash.

My son started walking at 9 months, and he is a VERY independent child. As soon as he could walk, he stopped enjoying being worn, and he would rather push the stroller than ride in it. He refused all carriers by 12 months, partly because we live in a HOT climate, so wearing got sweaty for both of us.

The leash let my little explorer really experience the world in a safe way. The zoo, airport, shopping, hiking - it was all better because he had freedom.

It's nice that some parents have kids that stick close, or like being confined in a stroller or carrier - but I'm getting a bit sick of being judged by them.


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## plunky (Aug 23, 2008)

This has been an interesting thread, thanks for the information. I particularly didn't know that it was uncomfortable for a child to hold an adult's hand for a period of time.


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## zippy_francis (Jan 9, 2008)

My DH had a cow about it at first. He wouldnt let me buy one. But then again he was never the one out with a 16mo old and a newborn at the same time. Of course when we are both out together it is easier to tag team 2 kids under two. But I usually do all the errands and shopping on my own since he works alot. Plus I also explained to him, I would rather have people give me weird looks than have my kids get kidnapped or get hit by a car in a parking lot. It is hard to juggle and I dont judge others for how they may need to wrangle their kids. Some people probably choose to never leave the house, but I cant live that way. I have to get out and in order to do that with 2 small kids I have to do what works for us. I cant stand people who judge, I mean really? Have we not ever heard or read 'Don't judge another until you've walked a mile in his shoes?'

I will never understand why parenting is one the topic that EVERYONE thinks they are right on all the time. Therefore must constantly tell others how they are doing it wrong or how they could do it better.


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## NaturallyKait (Sep 22, 2006)

While I don't have kids myself, my mother used a leash on me as a kid, one of the ones that strapped to my wrist and hers. It never bothered me. I have also babysat a child who needed his harness. He was 3 at the time and would just bolt out of no where. When I had him I normally also had his older brother and sometimes a stroller with another babysitting kid too and it was impossible to stop his running. He also did the drop thing when I held his hand. He had a cute little backpack that was a monkey and the tail was the "leash". He loved it, he stored his treasures in there and he never tried to run with it on. He majorly changed my view of leashes.


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## St. Margaret (May 19, 2006)

I have decided the next time I'm shopping/browsing an informational fair or something wtih DD, I might use the ring sling to make an impromtu harness, so she can bop around while my eyes aren't on her 100%... but that has more to do with two creepy encounters with men coming up and chatting her up in just CREEPY ways in the past week







. She's so social she'll go up and hug any woman with a good vibe, and will chat with men, and I worry she could be gone so fast... otherwise, she's super about holding hands for the parking lot and doesn't run off. I don't judge folks with harnesses b/c I figure it could be a kid that recently ran into the street and scared the beejeezus out of his/her poor parents, what do I know... but I tend away from them in general.


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## TheGirls (Jan 8, 2007)

My DD was super good until recently about holding hands/being worn when the situation warrented, but has lately found an independent streak where she likes to run into the street and hates (ie screams the whole time) being worn. In any carrier, any position. She also hates the stroller most of the time. I could still manage without a leash most of the time because I'm faster than she is and there's only one of her, but she really loves her puppy backpack and we have used it a couple of times (airports, mostly). It's handy, but not indispensible, for us right now.

However, now we're expecting twins. DD will be 2.5 and there's no way I'll be able to chase her while wearing or strollering two small babies. Plus when the babies get older, I won't be able to chase them both while keeping an eye on DD (who will only be 3 when they start walking...) so I'm suspecting I'll be finding the leash indispensible in a bit...


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

In our crazy very child/family un-friendly society (busy roads, scary people, nuclear family lifestyles, etc) - I can deff see why some people may _need_ to use these. I would like to think they are used as a _last_ resort though and as a parenting _tool_ than a 'neglectomatic'! (lmao). They are highly not used apporpriately though (yanking/dragging children around, etc), and its through this negative use that many people have such negative feelings towards these.

I was never a fan. We were very successful in just helping my son learn what was safe and what was not in a very consensual (non punative/coercive) way. We would often practice in safe areas - that for a child looked very fun (and perhaps seemingly unsafe - so that we could safely practice the unsafe things)! ...(like a path through a park or the camping shop - camping shop is our fav...no one is there on a Sunday, securty cameras everywhere, lots of fun tents to run in and out of! lol). I have never forced him into a pushchair, a sling or to hold my hand either. Would have never 'worked' with him anyhow - he would have just thrown himself to the floor in sobs and glued himself there. I felt it was much better to just work with him in a safe environment. He can manage very well now at 4 and has been able to for a few years now! We plan to do the same with this one.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I haven't needed one. My first was one who stuck next to me like glue all the time, and the little one is a bit more adventurous, but she has two parents and a much older sister to keep track of her, so I haven't had the need. But I think they're a great tool if you have a toddler who bolts and who doesn't like to be held but would rather wander. It gives children like that the freedom they want and the safety they need. IMO it has to be what both members of the pair want, the parent and the child. If both find the leash makes things easier, then it's a great tool. No one else gets a vote.


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## Cinder (Feb 4, 2003)

I have not used one...I was very against them till recently. If we get to a point where Travis won't ride in a stroller or let us carry him and he still doesn't either understand what we are telling him, hear what we are telling him, or just ignores everything we tell him (he is autistic, plus there is some hearing issue going on that we are still trying to figure out) then we will use one in order to keep him safe. Right now, he loves his stroller and he loves being carried/worn, so it's not an issue yet.


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

I don't and won't. If other parents choose to, that's their deal, I don't judge them.


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## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pumpkin_Pie* 
I am absolutely 100% certain that my DS would not be alive today if I hadn't put him on a leash for about six months. I agree that holding hands, using a carrier, using the stroller, teaching them to "STOP!" when necessary are all great, and often a better alternative, but occasionally, you just have to let go of their hand for a second.

Example: One day I was parked in a lot next to a busy street and had a few things in one hand. It was super snowy and the parking lot was pretty much one slushy puddle. There was no place to set my things down, and I needed to unlock the car. I told DS to stay right where he was and to hold my leg and I let go of his hand just long enough to fish my keys out of my pocket and unlock the car door and he was about a foot from the traffic. Luckily a stranger was walking by as I dropped everything and ran at him screaming like a crazy woman to "STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!". She heard me and caught him before he got hit, but it was super (as in heart stopping) close. That was one of MANY times that he came waaaaayyyyy too close to getting hit before I finally broke down and had him on the leash for every single trip out for quite a while. I would just pop the harness on as I took him out of the car seat and then loop the strap over my wrist until we were safe again, or back in the car. It was hard to take all of the snide comments and stares, but at least my DS is ALIVE today.

Leashes are hands down one of the most brilliant child safety inventions ever in my mind.

This is a perfect example of why these leashes are a good idea. When my dd was little she didnt run away from me like that but if she did I would want a leash too. I am to the point where I do not judge another mother because something isn't "ap enough." By the way, Dr. Sears started the name AP and baby leashes weren't on or off the list....what was was "doing what's best for your family."


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

When she was younger, backpack leash. Now we use a wrist one. My husband (SAHD) primarily uses it when he goes shopping with her and our son. Without them, she'd almost certainly be dead by now. I'm totally unapologetic and unashamed about using them. There's nothing degrading about meeting your child's needs.

Children are individuals. Not all children will be capable of the same kind of impulse control as others. My daughter is four and the other day, she tore away from me in the parking lot (she and I usually just hold hands), tripped and fell on her head. Big scrapes all over her face. Fortunately it was a pretty empty lot and not a busy time of day, so she wasn't in danger of being hit by a car. Still really hurt herself, though.

We had a talk (for the _billionth_ time) about safety, holding mama's hand in the parking lot, etc. but again, we're waiting for impulse control to develop here. She's a spirited kid and I respect who she is and what her developmental limitations are. I don't think it would be wise to ignore her needs because I'm somehow philosophically opposed to backpack leashes or handholding or whatever method is used to restrain the child.

We've never needed to use a leash with my son and I don't really anticipate that we ever will. Their personalities are like night and day; so different.

ETA: She has never complained about the leashes. She loved the backpack leash and thinks the wrist one is "cool." And she's always given a choice to ride in the cart or be on the leash.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

This is, hands down, the least hostile leash thread I've ever seen on MDC! Wow.

I have no problem with them, and _loved_ the harness we used with dd1. DH started a new job just two months before ds2 was born. We also moved when ds2 was 10 days old - lots going on. He really couldn't take any time off to help out with things. DD1 was two. DS1 was off for summer vacation, and was old enough (12) to help out a bit, but I didn't think he should have to give up all his time with his friends, either. Fortunately, there's a tourist farm just down the street from me. After the c-section, I couldn't walk a really long way, but I could walk to the farm, and go around the farm, so that dd1 could visit with the animals. I couldn't wear or carry ds2, so he went in the stroller, and dd1 went on the harness. She wasn't a serious runner (not like ds2), but she did bolt sometimes, especially near the pond and stream at the farm.

So, my options were basically to keep her inside all summer (baby arrived at the end of July, and I wasn't very mobile the last couple of weeks of the pregnancy, either), or put her on the harness.

She loved it. After we stopped using it (had started during the last few months of the pregnancy, to get her used to it, so it wasn't one of the bundle of changes with the new baby), she got it out sometimes and asked me to put it on her. She even asked to play "doggie", so she made that association at some point...but it didn't carry any negative connotation for her.

Over the years, I've used every combination of stroller/babywearing/harness that I can think of. Different combinations have worked at different times and for different things. People need to find what works.

Heck - over the last year, I've frequently commited the cardinal sin of AP, as I'm sure there are people who think dd2 is a bucket baby. I carried her around in her carseat quite a bit. She doesn't mind being in her seat, but she _hates_ being _put_ in her seat. So, if I was doing a fairly short errand (such as dropping ds2 off at preschool), I carried her in the carseat. It was hard, because that's not a convenient way to carry a baby, but it worked better for _her_. I'm sure lots of people thought I was being lazy and/or unattached.

I'd hate to see someone yanking their child around on a leash, but I've honestly never seen that. I _have_ seen people yanking their child around by hand, though. It's not the tool that's the problem - it's the way people use it.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Romana* 
Children are individuals. Not all children will be capable of the same kind of impulse control as others. My daughter is four and the other day, she tore away from me in the parking lot (she and I usually just hold hands), tripped and fell on her head. Big scrapes all over her face. Fortunately it was a pretty empty lot and not a busy time of day, so she wasn't in danger of being hit by a car. Still really hurt herself, though.

Sooooo true. DS2 will be five next month. He has impulse control that's pretty similar to what ds1 or dd1 had at age two. He _frequently_ runs into parking lots and doesn't seem to be absorbing anything I say about the dangers. A car swung into the lot right in front of him a few days ago, and he freaked, but in the moment, he just doesn't think about that stuff.


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

For me, it depends on the situation and the child. We used one very sporatically. We've used one when:

-We took my then-3 year old (at the time non-verbal) autistic son to Vietnam to adopt our daughter. We didn't know the language, he was a bolter, it was 110 degrees and ds didn't want to be carried all the time, and he wanted the freedom to walk. Traffic is insane there and if he bolted into the street, he would have been killed. If he wandered off and got lost or taken, we would not have had a way to communicate with anyone to get help.

-Our 3 year old daughter has limited danger awareness. She is a HUGE daredevil. She would run into the street without a second thought. In the town we used to live in, in order to watch the 4th of July fireworks, you had to sit on the side of a busy highway, and traffic wasn't stopped. So, we put the harness on her as a backup in case she got out of our hands.

Those are the two main reasons we've used them. Now, my youngest DD *loves* to run and walk and explore. I carry her everywhere, but she'd much rather walk. So I could see possibly using one at a zoo or something for her...

ETA: I'll never understand why sticking a toddler who'd rather be mobile in a stroller where she can't move, can't see anyone, and is restrained the whole time is considered acceptable, but allowing a child to explore in a safe way while being tethered to a parent who is not dragging the child around like a dog is considered anti-AP. It is truly one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard. I'm glad this thread has so far stayed away from that for the most part.


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaB21* 
Anyway, that's my issue with child leashes. I don't train my children in that way. I encourage them to be free spirits and explore and control their own environment. I tried to follow the continuum concept with DD and that involves not reminding her to 'follow me' or 'stop' or 'don't do that' 'come back'. The theory is that children left to their own devices will establish their own safety level and follow mom closely on their own. With that said, I realize that we don't necessarily live in a safe enough community to practice this 24/7.

My free spirited children, left to their own devices, would have been killed. Free spirited toddlers, preschoolers, and even older kids don't often realize that running into traffic = dead child. And even when they realize that, sometimes impulses take over. My older two children know that running into traffic is dangerous and a car can hit them. But in the heat of the moment when they just want to run, all that goes out the window and they just bolt.

Even APed free spirited children need some guidance. They don't come out of the womb knowing that getting hit by a car could kill them. And this is one natural consequence I'm _not_ willing to let them experience, obvious.







:

And trust me, my older two, which have had the harness from time to time, are still extremely curious, free spirited, and inquisitive children who love to explore, run, play, and have fun. Not being allowed to bolt into traffic by having a harness at the appropriate times hasn't ever hampered that in the least. Instead, I think they are so curious and inquisitive simply _because_ it was possible for them to do in a safe manner.


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## NaturallyKait (Sep 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I'd hate to see someone yanking their child around on a leash, but I've honestly never seen that. I _have_ seen people yanking their child around by hand, though. It's not the tool that's the problem - it's the way people use it.

Exactly. Does every kid need a harness? No. But some kids do.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I'd hate to see someone yanking their child around on a leash, but I've honestly never seen that. I _have_ seen people yanking their child around by hand, though.

I wonder if it's the area, because I've asked around and have yet to find someone that lives here who's actually seen a child being yanked around by the leash. I'm sure it happens, but it just doesn't seem to happen here as much as where some of the other posters live.


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## Lucy Alden (Jun 15, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Romana* 
There's nothing degrading about meeting your child's needs.

And this is exactly why I think tethers can be AP. AP is not a check list it is meeting the needs of YOUR child. My DS1 (who was walking at 10 months and running at 11) needed to explore his environment. Since I had an older child and (surprisingly) got pregnant when he was 6 months I couldn't watch him 100% of the time and run after him when he decided to bolt. The tether met his need to explore and be safe at the same time.

And I agree with Storm Bride. I've seen plenty of parents pull or drag their kids by their arm but never seen a parent do that with a tether.


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
I wonder if it's the area, because I've asked around and have yet to find someone that lives here who's actually seen a child being yanked around by the leash. I'm sure it happens, but it just doesn't seem to happen here as much as where some of the other posters live.


I know...it makes me afraid of going outside of my little central Ohio bubble. Seems to be quite a few areas where yanking kids on leashes, harassing breastfeeding mothers, calling CPS on homeschooled kids, and the like are common. I like my little bubble where I do what I want as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others, and other people do what they want as well.







: It's a rare day where I actually see a child being yanked around, or slapped in public, etc. Like in the 6 years I've lived here, I've probably seen 2 kids be slapped in public, less than a handful yelled at in public, and have never seen kids yanked around on leashes.


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## MammaB21 (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllyRae* 
My free spirited children, left to their own devices, would have been killed. Free spirited toddlers, preschoolers, and even older kids don't often realize that running into traffic = dead child. And even when they realize that, sometimes impulses take over. My older two children know that running into traffic is dangerous and a car can hit them. But in the heat of the moment when they just want to run, all that goes out the window and they just bolt.

Even APed free spirited children need some guidance. They don't come out of the womb knowing that getting hit by a car could kill them. And this is one natural consequence I'm _not_ willing to let them experience, obvious.







:

And trust me, my older two, which have had the harness from time to time, are still extremely curious, free spirited, and inquisitive children who love to explore, run, play, and have fun. Not being allowed to bolt into traffic by having a harness at the appropriate times hasn't ever hampered that in the least. Instead, I think they are so curious and inquisitive simply _because_ it was possible for them to do in a safe manner.

Hhhhmmm, I don't know, I seem to be getting misunderstood. Has anyone here read The Continuum Concept?

One more time I'll try to explain: Children _are_ born with an innate sense of safety. If you put a baby in front of a large hole, or a bonfire, they'll steer clear of it on their own because they see the danger there. How do you think animals avoid danger? Have you ever seen a mama duck walking with her ducklings? She doesn't turn around and call the one at the end of the line. She certainly doesn't need to use any physical contact to keep them following her. They do it because it's instinct. Because children of _any_ species have a basic understanding that mom=survival. The thing that makes human children so different (ie: running from us instead of to us, the ONLY species on the planet who will do that) is our society forcing unnecessary 'safety' tactics on our children. Because of the society we live in, it's near impossible to raise a child completely in this way because the outside world has an influence on them. But children who are left to learn safety limits on their own FROM INFANCY are far less likely to run from their parent in the first place. It's not even an option because they've spent their life up to that point being expected to stay close.

Sure, kids are still learning impulse control, but there are ways to _avoid_ dangers without directly damaging a childs development in their own safety limits. Like it's obvious that leaving a knife on the floor within reach is probably not a good idea. Or not holding a childs hand to cross the street. But for me personally, I feel like the leash is a far cry from standard safety precautions. I'd be curious to know what a child who is notorious for running would do if their parent simply kept walking with the expectation that the child would follow them. No prompting, no running after the child, just simply continuing on their business. Of course that experiment would have to be practiced in a safe place, but my VERY adventurous DD was always willing to follow me when I would put that responsibility and expectation back into her own hands.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaB21* 
Hhhhmmm, I don't know, I seem to be getting misunderstood. Has anyone here read The Continuum Concept?

Sure, kids are still learning impulse control, but there are ways to _avoid_ dangers without directly damaging a childs development in their own safety limits. Like it's obvious that leaving a knife on the floor within reach is probably not a good idea. Or not holding a childs hand to cross the street. But for me personally, I feel like the leash is a far cry from standard safety precautions. I'd be curious to know what a child who is notorious for running would do if their parent simply kept walking with the expectation that the child would follow them. No prompting, no running after the child, just simply continuing on their business. Of course that experiment would have to be practiced in a safe place, but my VERY adventurous DD was always willing to follow me when I would put that responsibility and expectation back into her own hands.

I have not read the continuum concept, but I don't think I need to remind you that not all ducklings survive to adulthood unscathed, nor do all squirrels avoid getting hit by cars.

My son's FAVORITE things are trucks and cars. Forget about the fact that those are terrifying things for me right now - he LOVES the wheels and wants to observe them turning up close (I think he's a future engineer). He does not understand that they can and will kill him if he gets too close to a moving one. The continuum concept is one that I respect, but it will not work for my son concerning cars. It just won't.

I'm going to buy a leash soon and try it at the zoo when we go next week!!! B/c water features also terrify me, and as hard as I try to keep him out of water, I'm terrified of what might happen if I turn around for a moment, and its impossible to watch him every single moment.

And, my son would keep running away. He does not follow unless I pick him up and carry him (which means he doesn't follow at all).


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

No way are babies born with an innate sense of safety. At least not one strong enough! Why would they roll off changing tables, or pull themselves into a bathtub filled with water (I'm talking about a curious older infant, for example). They don't know that fire is hot enough to burn or that a tumble down the stairs could cause broken bones. Even if they did have an inner drive to keep them out of harm's way, they lack the physical development to prevent/move their bodies to safety.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

My kid who was a runner would keep running. Until he ran into something that made him stop. In a natural environment, that probably wouldn't be a big deal - he would eventually get tired and sit down. But we don't live in a natural environment - we (at least I) live in an envirnment with throngs of people and highways and fast cars that can kill you. Cars aren't predators and they aren't big holes. I think for some kids, they don't inspire the instinctual avoidance of danger that a natural danger might inspire. It's like a duck that doesn't have a concept of the danger directed towards it by a hunter on the ground. I'm familiar with the continuum theory. I don't think it works for all kids in the modern world. In fact, I don't think it works for all kids in societies that have less man made dangers. There's always going to be a kid who gets eaten by a lion or falls in the fire or something. The reason people have developed the idea of keeping their kids safe is because sometimes kids aren't safe. Sometimes kids get badly hurt and sometimes they die. That's evolution, survival of the fittest, etc - but I'm not going to just let my kids be victims of evolution. I have no doubt that my son would have been hit by a car (considering the times that he bolted from me in a parking lot or ran into the street - or hell, he probably would have drown - he had some near misses on the that) had I not restrained him in someway in certain environments in his toddlerhood - we chose the method of restraint that he enjoyed the most, which was a sling used as a tether. Other runners might be happy in a stroller or a sling or something - mine wasn't.


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## *bejeweled* (Jul 16, 2003)

No.


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## MammaB21 (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 
No way are babies born with an innate sense of safety. At least not one strong enough! Why would they roll off changing tables, or pull themselves into a bathtub filled with water (I'm talking about a curious older infant, for example). They don't know that fire is hot enough to burn or that a tumble down the stairs could cause broken bones. Even if they did have an inner drive to keep them out of harm's way, they lack the physical development to prevent/move their bodies to safety.











In a natural environment you wouldn't put a baby on a 4 foot changing table. That would be consitant with the examples I gave of common sense parenting coupled with allowing a child the freedom to learn safety limits.

They do know that fire is hot. Fire gives off heat whether you touch it or not and it doesn't take much of that heat to pull back or know to stay away. Most fire accidents come from carelessness, not confusion about the fact that the fire is hot.

Again, I agree with all of you that in our society we have man made dangers and therefore I don't trust to use this theory 100% of the time. There are times I remind my daughter to "stop at the end of the sidewalk to hold my hand". But as a general rule I think we show our kids what we expect from them. If we show them that we expect that they'll run from us, they interpret it as reassurance that it's okay to run from us. It's not okay, and they have to learn that sooner or later. I'd just prefer they learn it sooner, I guess.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Ahhhh, I missed the "natural environment", I guess b/c it's not relevant for most of us in the real world. We live inside, so if it's true that an infant would roll away from a fire pit or hole, that's great - but there is no innate safety with regards to real world dangers, which is why some people choose to use leashes to keep their kids safe. I mentioned earlier I have never used one, with any of my four kids, but I now do see how they an be a helpful, safety tool.


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## MammaB21 (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 
Ahhhh, I missed the "natural environment", I guess b/c it's not relevant for most of us in the real world. We live inside, so if it's true that an infant would roll away from a fire pit or hole, that's great









I don't know that they'd 'roll away' from it because I don't know anyone who's _actually_ going to stick their infant right next to a fire....lol. But in a real life situation where kids and grownups are all in a backyard and there happens to be a fire going, I'd say instinct would keep the child within a safe distance from the fire.


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## zippy_francis (Jan 9, 2008)

I guess I screwed my kids up by not practicing yet another theory...









So much for the support, only criticism to be found here.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaB21* 
Again, I agree with all of you that in our society we have man made dangers and therefore I don't trust to use this theory 100% of the time. There are times I remind my daughter to "stop at the end of the sidewalk to hold my hand". But as a general rule I think we show our kids what we expect from them. If we show them that we expect that they'll run from us, they interpret it as reassurance that it's okay to run from us. It's not okay, and they have to learn that sooner or later. I'd just prefer they learn it sooner, I guess.

Again, it's great that you have a child who responded to reminders. I'm sure I didn't teach my son that I expected him to run away at 10 months old. In fact, after my experience with him, I DID expect my younger kids to run away from me, but apparently that expectation was not passed on to them since my daughter never once did it and my youngest son only a couple of times. Frankly, I get a little annoyed with the "it's the parent's fault" explanation for every undesirable behavior a child has.


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## Multimomma (Jan 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaB21* 







I don't know that they'd 'roll away' from it because I don't know anyone who's _actually_ going to stick their infant right next to a fire....lol. But in a real life situation where kids and grownups are all in a backyard and there happens to be a fire going, I'd say instinct would keep the child within a safe distance from the fire.




















































You get to meet my 8yo. This is the boy, whom I guess, has zero instinct.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaB21* 
Sure, kids are still learning impulse control, but there are ways to _avoid_ dangers without directly damaging a childs development in their own safety limits. Like it's obvious that leaving a knife on the floor within reach is probably not a good idea. Or not holding a childs hand to cross the street. But for me personally, I feel like the leash is a far cry from standard safety precautions.

I'm curious as to how holding the child's hand is letting them determine their own safety limits any more than a leash it?

Quote:

I'd be curious to know what a child who is notorious for running would do if their parent simply kept walking with the expectation that the child would follow them. No prompting, no running after the child, just simply continuing on their business. Of course that experiment would have to be practiced in a safe place, but my VERY adventurous DD was always willing to follow me when I would put that responsibility and expectation back into her own hands.
DS2 will follow me...eventually. Of course, if it's a parking lot, and I keep walking, he'll chase me into it without looking. If it's somewhere dangerous, and I stop to let him catch up, then...well, I've stopped, so he doesn't have to worry. He also has a sense of humour, so running in another direction (straight for the drop-off at the creek is a favourite) is a good game.

I've read the Continuum Concept. I didn't like it, and I think it way overstated the inborn safety instincts of children.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Multimomma* 


















































You get to meet my 8yo. This is the boy, whom I guess, has zero instinct.

My now nine year old would stay away from it (unless he was confident he could handle it, but when he was in the "needs a tether" stage, he absoloutely would not have either. I don't suspect my now 4 year old would either. My dd, who was the most mellow, compliant child I've ever met, is the only one of my three who would not have pushed the limits of safety with regard to fire.


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

not w/DD because it wasn't necessary but I do know children where, if I were their mother, I'd definitely use one. That is not why I am posting though.









my DD went through a phase when she was 4-ish where she wanted to pretend she was a horse so she got a very long piece of twine and tied it around her waist and then she'd hand it to DH or me when we went out. It looked like a long lead. DH was mortified because he thought everyone would assume he did that to her. Some kids apparently like leashes.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaB21* 







I don't know that they'd 'roll away' from it because I don't know anyone who's _actually_ going to stick their infant right next to a fire....lol. But in a real life situation where kids and grownups are all in a backyard and there happens to be a fire going, I'd say instinct would keep the child within a safe distance from the fire.

Depends on the child, just like anything else, really.

Considering the "natural world" aspect, I'm not sure what this has to do with leashes, anyway. I used a leash to keep my dd from wandering into a street full of cars on our way to the farm. I could have held her hand, but she'd have spent the whole walk screaming, and trying to pull loose. Actually, scratch that - I couldn't have done it. Even if I'd wanted to, there's no way I could have wrestled my kid all the way down the street 10 days post-op.

I also never sent her any message that I expected her to bolt. I didn't. She started doing that at about 15-16 months or something, whenever she saw something interesting.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllyRae* 
I know...it makes me afraid of going outside of my little central Ohio bubble. Seems to be quite a few areas where yanking kids on leashes, harassing breastfeeding mothers, calling CPS on homeschooled kids, and the like are common. I like my little bubble where I do what I want as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others, and other people do what they want as well.







: It's a rare day where I actually see a child being yanked around, or slapped in public, etc. Like in the 6 years I've lived here, I've probably seen 2 kids be slapped in public, less than a handful yelled at in public, and have never seen kids yanked around on leashes.

I know what you mean. Last month we wen't down to Washinton state to watch a baseball game. After some of the things I have read on here I was little apprehensive, despite having been down there before. A part of me worried I would see a parent cussing out, or smacking their child. I've never come across that in the 20+ years I've lived here.


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## NaturallyKait (Sep 22, 2006)

Yeah, the three year old I minded wouldn't just follow, he'd run into the middle of the road, in fact he did one day with his mother and I and luckily the car stopped in time. There's a lot of judgement going on in this thread about moms who use "leashes", when really sometimes it's all you can do. Someone pointed out earlier in the thread (sorry, I don't remember who) that it is meeting the needs of their child, and I totally agree. Little D was such a happier kid when he had his monkey backpack on, and he could stop and look at the little rocks on the sidewalk and store them in his backpack if he wanted to keep one, and he could look over the edge of the road at the creek below and if he stopped, we stopped so he could explore, but also when he decided to bolt we could stop him before he got hit by a car.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaB21* 









In a natural environment you wouldn't put a baby on a 4 foot changing table. That would be consitant with the examples I gave of common sense parenting coupled with allowing a child the freedom to learn safety limits.

They do know that fire is hot. Fire gives off heat whether you touch it or not and it doesn't take much of that heat to pull back or know to stay away. Most fire accidents come from carelessness, not confusion about the fact that the fire is hot.

Again, I agree with all of you that in our society we have man made dangers and therefore I don't trust to use this theory 100% of the time. There are times I remind my daughter to "stop at the end of the sidewalk to hold my hand". But as a general rule I think we show our kids what we expect from them. If we show them that we expect that they'll run from us, they interpret it as reassurance that it's okay to run from us. It's not okay, and they have to learn that sooner or later. I'd just prefer they learn it sooner, I guess.

Getting into your fire analogy...

Last time we went camping, we tried your theory of "children have an innate sense of danger" and DS almost got burned. He actually wanted to stick his hand _in_ the fire because he felt warmth, not heat radiating from it. Only the fact that he was so young, and DH and I were both right there to physically stop him, stopped him.

DS is also one of those who would just keep running in whatever direction he started if the person he was with kept walking in their direction.

It also reminds me of a story that comes up at a friends house whenever a certain picture is commented on. It's her, her sister and mother while they were camping. My friend was about 2 at the time. Next to where the picture was taken was a small, almost non-existent trail that lead straight to a cliff. Guess what, my friend jumped up, ran straight for the trail. Her mom grabbed about one step from the edge of the cliff, while she was still mid-run. She also remembers many times where she got lost in malls, stores, other places because something caught her interest and she lost visual with her parents. She even explained it once, her thought processes at the time was "I don't want to get lost so I will go and look, but I'll remember where mom is going so I can come back", only most of the time she wasn't able to locate her parents. No she didn't want to get lost in the mess of people, but her pro-active "safe" approach was ineffective, as one can expect from a 3-7 year old who doesn't have the same understanding or actual view (as in what you can see at your height) of the world as an adult does.


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## Ninetales (Jan 25, 2009)

Mine doesn't walk yet, so we haven't used one. But I'd have no problem using it in the future. I do like the term "tether" or "harness" more than "leash," though.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

I actually went to look at some child leashes today (for my 18 month old runner) but around here, all we have is those horrible harnesses. I didn't end up buying one. For now, I will stick with putting him in the ergo when he starts getting restless and there is a danger of him running. That is just because I don't like the psychological aspect of the leash _for me_ though. If they had the backpack type leashes, I would have bought one.

Actually, I don't think there is a lot of judgement going on in this thread at all. Reading other peoples' experiences has been useful.









We're pretty crunchy, very AP. But my kid DOES NOT have an inborn sense of safety, in all situations. As the parent, it is my job to keep him safe. Isn't that AP too?


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## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

And here we go....honestly, why can't someone do something differently than another parent without the whole "well, MY kid never ran away so it must be your fault" instead of "hey, sounds like the leash is working well for your family." I am sooo very tired of the competitiveness of parenting.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaB21* 
Hhhhmmm, I don't know, I seem to be getting misunderstood. Has anyone here read The Continuum Concept?

One more time I'll try to explain: Children _are_ born with an innate sense of safety. If you put a baby in front of a large hole, or a bonfire, they'll steer clear of it on their own because they see the danger there.

And then there was Dettwyler's experiences where the tribes she observed DID have a children crawling into the fire and getting burned. So I'm inclined to believe that Liedoff's tribe was putting out subtle warning signs to their kids that she couldn't see.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaB21* 
Of course that experiment would have to be practiced in a safe place, but my VERY adventurous DD was always willing to follow me when I would put that responsibility and expectation back into her own hands.

Yep, I've tried that. I was even walking INTO the local Children's Museum. She's been there pretty much every week since she was about 6 months old, usually twice a week. She cheerfully repeated "Saur!" when I reminded her that there were dinosaurs to see inside.

Instead of coming to follow me, she ran for the door to the parking garage. What turned her around was the groups of people entering and walking towards the museum. And dd isn't even a "runner" to the extent that some kids are.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaB21* 
there happens to be a fire going, I'd say instinct would keep the child within a safe distance from the fire.

The kids at the last bonfire I went to didn't care about getting far closer than any adult ever would. And it's not like they were getting close because they were approaching it deliberately, they got close because they were running around chasing each other. At least one child was kept out of the fire because an adult caught them after they tripped. (Possibly more while I was in the house.)


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zippy_francis* 
I guess I screwed my kids up by not practicing yet another theory...









So much for the support, only criticism to be found here.

No, read farther up thread. While MammaB21 really likes how CC theories have worked well for her family, she made it clear in an earlier post that she is talking about why she personally does not use harnesses and ymmv.


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## heathergirl67 (Apr 1, 2010)

Quick video of an interesting experiment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyxMq...eature=related

It shows that while kids may recognize something as potentially dangerous, the look to adults for confirmation. They don't have that instinctual "safety" for the same reason that they aren't born with claws or fangs- unlike other animals they have an extremely effective safety mechanism: their parents.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heathergirl67* 
Quick video of an interesting experiment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyxMq...eature=related

It shows that while kids may recognize something as potentially dangerous, the look to adults for confirmation. They don't have that instinctual "safety" for the same reason that they aren't born with claws or fangs- unlike other animals they have an extremely effective safety mechanism: their parents.

Interesting, and that supports my theory that Liedoff was missing safety cues.


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## felix23 (Nov 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dr.Worm* 
And here we go....honestly, why can't someone do something differently than another parent without the whole "well, MY kid never ran away so it must be your fault" instead of "hey, sounds like the leash is working well for your family." I am sooo very tired of the competitiveness of parenting.









: I'm glad for those who have children that will not streak off at the first chance, but I ended up with two that will, so I have a great love for the harness. DD1 will stay with me now that she is a preschooler, but the toddler can be gone in a second. And she was NOT born with an innate sense of safety. She grabs at the hot stove and almost fell off a bank into a stream during the last nature walk. She has no fear and no concept that she can get hurt.


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## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *felix23* 







: I'm glad for those who have children that will not streak off at the first chance, but I ended up with two that will, so I have a great love for the harness. DD1 will stay with me now that she is a preschooler, but the toddler can be gone in a second. And she was NOT born with an innate sense of safety. She grabs at the hot stove and almost fell off a bank into a stream during the last nature walk. She has no fear and no concept that she can get hurt.

Exactly. All kids are different..and even though my child was one who was not a runner I am insulted for mothers like you who have had kids run away and then it's implied that they run because they haven't been allowed to explore safety boundaries....puh-lease. Lets make mothers feel more inadequate cause we always feel so confident already. And I'm not going to put my baby near a fire to prove some sort of point. I don't do experiments on my child. I'm here to protect her.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Please do not be against them. Yes be against people using them instead of parenting. People have sewn tethers and connected themselves to their children for ever, whether it has been through a sling or stroller.

One of the most horrible insistent I had of Attachment parenting snobbery was when I was at a hospital with my 3 children. I took mass transit. I had this lady with baby in arms that said she would never use a stroller. I was sitting there with my oldest playing, my infant happy in the stroller, nursing my 2.5 year old after a medical procedure. Stroller was "Un-AP" and showed I was not a caring mom. I feel the same way as parents belittling other parenting aids.

My middle child is hard of hearing. That tether was a life saver at times. We had to work harder to communicate. She needed more work, time, and patiences to learn to listen and watch -- while respecting the independence she wanted. It is hard to do these things when you cannot hear. I never used one with my first child, only occasionally with my second one after the stroller broke. And I had to have my hands busy else were -- mostly at middle child's doctor and speech appointments.

I know disabled parents and less mobile grand parents use them.

I find the biggest irony and hypocritical of some AP parents is they would smile when I had my child attached to my body with a sling yet with I pulled it snug around her (their) chest and gave them independence the noises would go up. What is the difference? What is the difference between holding hands.

One of my friend's snubbed it until her child at 20months through himself down while she was holding his hand and he dislocated his elbow and shoulder. She borrowed my sling to use as a tether until she got her own. This way if he through a fit he didn't get hurt.


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## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom* 
Please do not be against them. Yes be against people using them instead of parenting. People have sewn tethers and connected themselves to their children for ever, whether it has been through a sling or stroller.

One of the most horrible insistent I had of Attachment parenting snobbery was when I was at a hospital with my 3 children. I took mass transit. I had this lady with baby in arms that said she would never use a stroller. I was sitting there with my oldest playing, my infant happy in the stroller, nursing my 2.5 year old after a medical procedure. Stroller was "Un-AP" and showed I was not a caring mom. I feel the same way as parents belittling other parenting aids.

My middle child is hard of hearing. That tether was a life saver at times. We had to work harder to communicate. She needed more work, time, and patiences to learn to listen and watch -- while respecting the independence she wanted. It is hard to do these things when you cannot hear. I never used one with my first child, only occasionally with my second one after the stroller broke. And I had to have my hands busy else were -- mostly at middle child's doctor and speech appointments.

I know disabled parents and less mobile grand parents use them.

I find the biggest irony and hypocritical of some AP parents is they would smile when I had my child attached to my body with a sling yet with I pulled it snug around her (their) chest and gave them independence the noises would go up. What is the difference? What is the difference between holding hands.

One of my friend's snubbed it until her child at 20months through himself down while she was holding his hand and he dislocated his elbow and shoulder. She borrowed my sling to use as a tether until she got her own. This way if he through a fit he didn't get hurt.

I'm so sorry that happened to you. Yeah, because we all know strollers and leashes are child abuse.







It all makes me sick...what is the greatest message of AP? Is it love and closeness to our kids or is it a checklist of perfection? And isn't part of the whole idea of love to also teach our kids to love and accept others who are different than us? That so-and-so isn't a good mommy cause she uses a stroller or a bottle or a leash? Wow...what a sad and judgmental attitude to teach them.


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## JavaJunkie (Jan 16, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaB21* 
Hhhhmmm, I don't know, I seem to be getting misunderstood. Has anyone here read The Continuum Concept?

One more time I'll try to explain: Children _are_ born with an innate sense of safety. If you put a baby in front of a large hole, or a bonfire, they'll steer clear of it on their own because they see the danger there. How do you think animals avoid danger? Have you ever seen a mama duck walking with her ducklings? She doesn't turn around and call the one at the end of the line. She certainly doesn't need to use any physical contact to keep them following her. They do it because it's instinct.


I'll go ahead and jump into this thread on this. I used to live where we had ducks and ducklings around. It was so interesting to observe them! I was surprised to see just how on top of things the mama ducks were. They would, indeed, turn around and check their ducklings. And when one would stray(and there always seemed to be a duckling "runner" in every group! LOL), she'd go after the duckling and quack at him/her to get back over with the others! She'd turn and quack at the others to make sure they stayed put. It was always so interesting and humorous to watch. Certain ducklings did not seem to have an innate sense of safety.

I frowned upon child "leashes" when my oldest ds was little. As he grew older, I grew less judgmental about things like that.

My youngest is the first child that I've actually considered using a leash for. I plan on buying one. She is getting much better about holding my hand without screaming, but I think she'd enjoy having the extra freedom that the leash would allow. She's been refusing the stroller for awhile now. Of course I carry/wear her, but that wears thin with her, too. She would much rather walk.


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## Cinder (Feb 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaB21* 
Hhhhmmm, I don't know, I seem to be getting misunderstood. Has anyone here read The Continuum Concept?

One more time I'll try to explain: Children _are_ born with an innate sense of safety. *If you put a baby in front of a large hole, or a bonfire, they'll steer clear of it on their own because they see the danger there.* How do you think animals avoid danger? Have you ever seen a mama duck walking with her ducklings? She doesn't turn around and call the one at the end of the line. She certainly doesn't need to use any physical contact to keep them following her. They do it because it's instinct. Because children of _any_ species have a basic understanding that mom=survival. The thing that makes human children so different (ie: running from us instead of to us, the ONLY species on the planet who will do that) is our society forcing unnecessary 'safety' tactics on our children. Because of the society we live in, it's near impossible to raise a child completely in this way because the outside world has an influence on them. But children who are left to learn safety limits on their own FROM INFANCY are far less likely to run from their parent in the first place. It's not even an option because they've spent their life up to that point being expected to stay close.

Sure, kids are still learning impulse control, but there are ways to _avoid_ dangers without directly damaging a childs development in their own safety limits. Like it's obvious that leaving a knife on the floor within reach is probably not a good idea. Or not holding a childs hand to cross the street. But for me personally, I feel like the leash is a far cry from standard safety precautions. I'd be curious to know what a child who is notorious for running would do if their parent simply kept walking with the expectation that the child would follow them. No prompting, no running after the child, just simply continuing on their business. Of course that experiment would have to be practiced in a safe place, but my VERY adventurous DD was always willing to follow me when I would put that responsibility and expectation back into her own hands.


From everything I've read and seen children have next to no depth perception before they learn to crawl, and so they don't even know that hole is a hole...and if your kid skips crawling it takes quite a bit of walking to get that down (crawling is a much better way to learn it, since if you get to a ledge and your hand no longer has anywhere to go, you just turn around...if you walk of a ledge, you just fall)...Janelle skipped crawling and she definitely had this issue, not noticing when a deck or side walk ended and tripping cause she didn't notice the difference in heights/drop offs that were there, and from reading and watching a lot of stuff on typical child development world wide, this is completely typical of kids who skip crawling.

and, umm, I've seen a lot of baby ducks killed by cars, so I wouldn't trust that as an example.


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thyra* 
I have not read the continuum concept, but I don't think I need to remind you that not all ducklings survive to adulthood unscathed, nor do all squirrels avoid getting hit by cars.

Yes, EXACTLY! A lot of wild animal babies are eaten long before they reach adult hood. Some fall victim to human traps. Some are hit crossing the highway. And some, like the baby mice I didn't know where there, are hit by the lawnmower and killed. I'm pretty sure that's why many animals have multiple babies at once...with hopes that at least one survives.

And babies are born with instincts to survive by crying to avoid hunger, attaching to avoid abandonment, etc. There is no human DNA or gene that is preprogramed with the knowledge that running in front of cars can get you killed. Hence why my 16 month old routinely runs for the street at any given opportunity. Just like many human babies, including my own, try diving head first into the bathtub when she hears me turn on the faucet. She'll also attempt to rip the dog's fur out when clearly the dog is not enjoying it. She frequently attempts to reach up onto a hot burner. She'll attempt to jump off high stairs or the table. Man-made dangers are NOT pre-programmed into a child's dna to avoid. I'm pretty sure she needs me to help her figure out what is safe and what is not, unless it's something that is safe to let natural consequences teach her. She was born with the instinct to a) breathe to avoid oxygen deprivation, b) cry to avoid starvation, and c) use attachment behaviors to avoid abandonment. In a natural environment all over the world, babies are born with these instincts. But you can't convince me that American babies are born with the instinct to avoid American dangers (cars in the road, bathtubs, etc.), babies born in the jungle are born with the instinct to not be eaten by jaguars, and babies born in the desert are born with the instinct to not touch cacti.







:

ETA: And we just had a bonfire this weekend. Guess which curious little 16 month old thought it'd be real fun to continue to try to leap into it? Yep, mine. So, even if she was born with the instinct, she lost it soon after she learned to walk.







: And that's what the harnesses are for...babies who lost their survival instincts once curiousity and mobility took over.


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## Cinder (Feb 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaB21* 









In a natural environment you wouldn't put a baby on a 4 foot changing table. That would be consitant with the examples I gave of common sense parenting coupled with allowing a child the freedom to learn safety limits.

They do know that fire is hot. Fire gives off heat whether you touch it or not and it doesn't take much of that heat to pull back or know to stay away. Most fire accidents come from carelessness, not confusion about the fact that the fire is hot.

Again, I agree with all of you that in our society we have man made dangers and therefore I don't trust to use this theory 100% of the time. There are times I remind my daughter to "stop at the end of the sidewalk to hold my hand". But as a general rule I think we show our kids what we expect from them. If we show them that we expect that they'll run from us, they interpret it as reassurance that it's okay to run from us. It's not okay, and they have to learn that sooner or later. I'd just prefer they learn it sooner, I guess.

See, I have 2 kids who will do that. If I tell them to stop and wait for me they will, at 10 months old Janelle was doing that! As soon as Kincaid wanted to walk places instead of be carried/be in a stroller/cart he was doing that (he was quite addicted to his stroller though, so he was older)... They will always wait for mommy. If I walk away from them at a store, they follow. All though, Kincaid broke his toes without feeling it at a rate of 1 toe per month for a couple years, so I doubt he would of figured out that fire felt hot...but, that's another issue.

Travis? He knows how to climb anything, open any lock, does not stop if I ask him to, and as far as I know, doesn't even know what a sidewalk is, since he has failed every hearing test 100% but seems to be able to hear somethings sometimes, we also don't even know if he can hear/understand us when we ask him to do things... He has no sense of danger, he climbed over the back of the couch and fell on his head at 9 months old, he couldn't even walk yet! Right now, he likes being in his stroller (or carseat...he likes to be strapped into things), but when that ends, if he still doesn't understand what stop means, or that cars can be dangerous, then yea, we will use a harness of some sort for him.


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## Lucy Alden (Jun 15, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaB21* 
Most fire accidents come from *carelessness, not confusion* about the fact that the fire is hot.

(bolding mine) So I guess my DS is careless, not confused. Fine, I have no problem with that label. He is brave and fearless and exceptionally curious. It's part of what makes him unique. Unfortunately its also puts him in danger. We don't want to squelch his sense of adventure. We just want to keep him alive so he can enjoy life past the age of 3!

Side note. There was an article called "Jumping Off Cliffs" in Mothering Magazine in the March/April 2009 issue. Much like my son, the boy in the article was full of endless energy, curiousity and fearlessness. They embraced it and tried to keep him safe while he explored his world. One of the pictures is of him as a little guy wearing a helmet so he could climb up into their treehouse. He's now an amazing dancer. I wish I could link to the article but it's not online.

Sometimes a child's need to "explore" is greater than their need for self preservation.


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zippy_francis* 
I guess I screwed my kids up by not practicing yet another theory...









No kidding, right? My poor doomed kids...I listened to their needs, took their desires into account, leashed them when it was appropriate (rarely, but when appropriate), and allowed them to be extremely curious inquisitive kids in a manner that kept them safe and alive while also allowing them freedom.

Poor kids are screwed.







:

Actually, I have noticed a difference between my kids and a lot of kids...they aren't afraid to get dirty, to run around, to have a ton of fun, to explore new things...they are very wild and crazy and energetic. They spend hours splashing in giant mud puddles or walking through the woods exploring nature. They *love* exploring the world around them. And I'm pretty sure it was precisely because they were given the chance to be independent AND they were given the accomodations to make it safe. In 6 years of parenting, I have confined the children to a stroller less times than I can count on both hands. I have used a leash 3 or 4 times. They don't seem scarred by it at all...







:


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## MammaB21 (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
No, read farther up thread. While MammaB21 really likes how CC theories have worked well for her family, she made it clear in an earlier post that she is talking about why she personally does not use harnesses and ymmv.

Thanks Sapphire_chan. I'm not bashing leashes, or trying to put down different parenting styles. I was mainly defending my point of view because I was feeling attacked in that nobody here seemed to understand the point I was trying to make. I think in my further explanations I've ruffled some feathers, which I was hoping to avoid.

I agree with you on the missed warning cues from parents. I absolutely believe in guiding my kids out of dangers way. I, personally, see a difference though. Making a statement like, "Don't do that, you'll fall," puts an idea in a small childs head that it is expected of them to fall. While using a leash is quite different from making a statement like that, it come a little too close for my comfort.


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## MammaB21 (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dr.Worm* 
And here we go....honestly, why can't someone do something differently than another parent without the whole "well, MY kid never ran away so it must be your fault" instead of "hey, sounds like the leash is working well for your family." I am sooo very tired of the competitiveness of parenting.

Actually, I said that my kid _did_ run away, and that we certainly weren't perfect in our attempts. I also never said that it's the parents fault if they have a child who runs. However, I don't think that we can argue the fact that not all of a childs personality comes from genes. Some of it is environmental and as parents, we all do what we can and what we believe is best for OUR kids. Please don't twist my words into blanketed statements about other peoples parenting. I'm really not a judgmental AP competitive parent here. Like I said, I was feeling a little misunderstood, and I'm simply trying to defend _my_ parenting choices without people labeling me as simply 'lucky' to have a compliant child. I believe I worked hard and I and DD benefited from it. Would it have worked with any kid? Probably not. I'm sure there are kids out there who need extra guidance, extra watching, extra warnings, even an extra safety device here and there.


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## laurelg (Nov 27, 2007)

I just wanted to thank everyone for the civil tone here and opening my eyes about appropriate reasons to use a kid leash.

Until I read this thread, I was 100% opposed to them and thought they were degrading. Of course, I've seen them wildly misused by neglectful and borderline abusive parents, so that didn't give me a good impression.

Having it framed as an alternative to being unwillingly carried or strapped in a stroller, plus the discomfort of holding hands for an extended period, has been enlightening.

So, thank you!


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## MammaB21 (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lucy Alden* 
(bolding mine) So I guess my DS is careless, not confused. Fine, I have no problem with that label. He is brave and fearless and exceptionally curious. It's part of what makes him unique. Unfortunately its also puts him in danger. We don't want to squelch his sense of adventure. We just want to keep him alive so he can enjoy life past the age of 3!

Side note. There was an article called "Jumping Off Cliffs" in Mothering Magazine in the March/April 2009 issue. Much like my son, the boy in the article was full of endless energy, curiousity and fearlessness. They embraced it and tried to keep him safe while he explored his world. One of the pictures is of him as a little guy wearing a helmet so he could climb up into their treehouse. He's now an amazing dancer. I wish I could link to the article but it's not online.

Sometimes a child's need to "explore" is greater than their need for self preservation.









I meant carelessness as in accidental. I don't see many kids hanging out in the middle of a bonfire just for kicks. If they fall in, it's an accident, right? Curiousity is a little different from confusion. Curiousity might bring you close to danger, but _usually_ there are still personal boundaries in place. Not everyones personal boundaries are the same. My DD's were WAY wider than mine. There were times we'd be at the pool when she was a toddler and she'd sit right on the side, or go running full force toward the pool as if to dive right in head first. It took all that I had not to yell "STOP!" or run and grab her. But 10 times out of 10 she did stop when she got to the edge even though it didn't look like she would. She would turn around and go in slowly. (FYI, I was always in a safe distance to help her, or in the pool myself so no real risk of her being in danger. I just had to prepare for it ahead of time because I knew as soon as she saw the pool she'd run right for it).

One more clarification for everyone - this whole infant innate sense of safety thing has really been scrutinized. All the points made about that are valid, and I agree with all of you who are saying it's not enough. I _personally_ believe that we _are_ born with safety limits, yet they continue to develop a lot through our young life. Infants who are worn on a daily basis are able to stay out of harms way while observing the safety limits of adults in their culture. Infants who aren't worn every day are still able to pick up on the actions and danger cues of those around them. Once toddlerhood hits, they take on a little more hands on method of learning safety. I'm not afraid to let my kids get hurt in the process of learning. (I'm talking falling down, bumps and bruises here, obviously not putting my kids in extreme danger).

I forget who asked about the difference in hand holding versus leashes? Sorry. For me, the difference is that hand holding happens during clearly dangerous situations, therefore signally a hightened stated of awareness. I hold DD's hand briefly to cross the street. While on a sidewalk she isn't made to hold hands. Maybe the main differences here are that we don't typically go anywhere super dangerous. We do a lot of city walking, but haven't run into a problem. We don't go to air ports. We only go to the fair once a year, and to the mall infrequently and when we do it never seems dangerously crowded.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heathergirl67* 
Quick video of an interesting experiment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyxMq...eature=related

It shows that while kids may recognize something as potentially dangerous, the look to adults for confirmation. They don't have that instinctual "safety" for the same reason that they aren't born with claws or fangs- unlike other animals they have an extremely effective safety mechanism: their parents.

I saw the whole video I think (it's great, or at least the one I saw with a visual cliff was), and what I retained from it was when the SAME KIDS started WALKING - they 'fell' off the cliff, because they had to _relearn_ what a stair looked like from a standing position.

I can't remember if it was my husband and I talking after or in the video itself that we were like "whoa, if parents thought kids would still behave the same way, that would explain a lot of ER visits."

That was enough for me to decide that for our family that we would be in charge of safety as the adults.







I do agree with giving kids some room for bumps and bruises, but there's a limit.

I also think that our modern world just doesn't give kids the right cues. If you're an adult Ye'kwana you probably won't step into a bonfire, and so the kids will never see that. But as an adult in the modern world, you might well walk past a line of parked cars in a parking lot. A child will not necessarily be able to get as much out of that modelling for a lot longer.

But I did get that MammaB21 was just explaining her approach, which works for her.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaB21* 
Not everyones personal boundaries are the same. My DD's were WAY wider than mine. There were times we'd be at the pool when she was a toddler and she'd sit right on the side, or go running full force toward the pool as if to dive right in head first. It took all that I had not to yell "STOP!" or run and grab her. But 10 times out of 10 she did stop when she got to the edge even though it didn't look like she would.

I think this example really illustrates the difference between a child who, while might run off at times, is generally responsive to either parents' warnings or some innate sense of danger and a child like my oldest, who was the one who used a tether. He, more that one time, threw himself in to swimming pools, fountains, etc and had to be fished out. He didn't seem to learn from one time to the next. I'm not bringing this up to argue with you - it's just that I know plenty of real life AP parents who said that they were totally opposed to the "leash" thing until they saw my kid in action







. Like you, I'm not a parent who is constantly on my kids with "be careful"s and "don't falls." In some areas, this same child had great instincts about his abilities. Take climbing, for example. He could scale the bookshelves in my living room from the time he was 8 months old. Scared the crap out of me, but I would just calmly remove him when I saw it happen. He has always had remarkable climbing skills and the only time I remember him getting hurt from the daredevilish stuff he did in that department was when he purposefully jumped from the top of a play structure just to see if he could. He found out that he could, but it hurt







. It was a good lesson to learn. He's a monkey and I'm cool with that, and I get annoyed when other parents would tell him to stop doing something I knew he was comfortable doing (thankfully hear this less now that he's 9 than when he was three). I think those of us who are really in touch with our kids know what they can an can't handle - mine could handle walking on the top of a wall at 3, but he couldn't handle staying close enough to not get lost or hit by a car at that age.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Kinda like DS knows instinctively what he should and shouldn't touch or pick up, but has no clue that when he runs in one direction and I'm going in another it means we have a considerably harder time finding each other than if he stays near by.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

And I hope that MammaB21's experiences help a cautious mama with a good listener seek out some safe exploration.


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## FatherOf2 (Jun 2, 2010)

Interesting subject. My mother used one on me after I tipped over my pack and play, stood on the couch, unhooked the screen and climbed outside only to have have our babysitter find me sitting in the yard playing with the dogs. She came in and asked my mom if she knew I was outside...........Mom freaked. I'm told I did this in less than 5 mins. I don't remember how old she told me I was but I know it had to be 4 or under because we left Ohio when I was 5.

She said at that point she realized that it was futile to attempt to thwart my curiosity and simply figured a leash would be the best compromise. My parents were strict disciplinarians and responsible parents when it came to my safety as a child so that was not an issue.

I generally carry my 3 year old daughter into the store then place her in a cart if there is one. If, for example, the store does not have carts such as the mall or best buy, she explores intensely in the immediate area. She's never taken off yet. Partly because she is so enthused about showing us the things she's discovering every 3 seconds. MOMMY DADDY LOOK!

When I see kids on leashes I sometimes laugh because I remember vaguely having one attached to me but I'll be honest and say that I've had the initial mental reaction of "just be a better parent" before. I of course know that every case is unique and that this mindset is poor. If it took attaching an anchor to my daughter to keep her safe, I'd do it. Public perception be damned.

The other thing that works is we are sensitive to our daughters time perception and try to keep boring trips directed and purposed. My mother used to hang out at the mall all day. This is simply not fun for kids, generally. It's easy for us to do because we don't like wasting time and can't for the life of ourselves figure out why people aimlessly hang out at stores. Now, when we got SAMS or costco; it takes a little while. Lot's of people, lots of stuff to buy, things are spread out etc. We rarely have in issue but when we do, we simply handle it by correcting her behavior. We have at times, admittedly, resorted to bribing as a poor substitute for maintaining patience but the overwhelming majority of the time we use it as a teaching experience.

This raising kids stuff is dynamic. Thus, there being no one model for success. I'd say attempt to curb the behavior with instruction but if you just can't, leash-em up. This isn't to suggest a failure on your part but perhaps just one of those things. I'm sure, eventually, anyone could curb a child of anything, but at what cost? You could scare the little guy till his creativity is shot and fear rules his life... yeah he may not run off anymore but... man.... what an expensive price! Every kid is different. I needed a leash. So far, my daughter doesn't.

Good topic.


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## accountclosed3 (Jun 13, 2006)

i do not know if i wrote on this thread before.

our preference is for our DS to be rather free-roaming when walking. for the most part, we simply walk closely to him and observe his surroundings when he explores. he can take off, but we are usually right there to grab him before he gets too far, or near something too dangerous for him.

when we are in crowded spaces, we are more likely to hold him or ask him to hold hands. he can still draw his hand away and take off, so we are cautious in crowds overall. i tend to avoid them myself.

likewise, we take him on city walks. a few afternoons a week, DH takes DS on city walks. they hold hands while walking on the side walks and he gets carried across the streets. he walks on the inside (away from the road side) and does well overall. he is learning the basics of city-street walking.

he is happy in carriers as well.

but.

there are a few times when the leash has been valuable.

1. my father broke both of his feet (17 breaks in one, and 21 or so in the other), and so his feet hurt quite a bit even though they are fixed. he can walk on them, albeit slowly.

my father loves to walk with DS, btu DS is still unpredictable enough to take off and head towards something dangerous. my dad cannot keep up with him or after him. so, when my father wants to be with DS, we put the leash on him (monkey back pack).

in particular, my family and I would go to crowded places togehter as well--so the mall at a sale time, or to the botanical gardens during the christmas time--and so on top of not being able to keep up with unpredictability, i also wanted he and DS to be close together as the leash would allow.

on such occasion, women have made comments. every person who did had their child in a stroller. to which i asserted "is it more or less problematic than having a child strapped into a wheeled chair?" honestly, a stroller is useful in many ways, but i believe it is overused, and that often used to control a child rather than simply to provide respite to child or adult (if the adult can't babywear for example). often, it is simply a means of control.

at least, the leash allows the child freedom of movement to explore.

2. when we moved from US to NZ, we had 8 large bags. i had the baby on the leash because he would not be worn that AM--we were all to keyed up.

it was helpful to me because i knew that he would be within a safe distance, and that it would be unlikely that he would be carried off, get lost, etc, and it made it easier to manage the tickets, the bags, security, etc etc etc while travelling.

once we were at the gate (bags checked, through security, etc) one would stay with the carry ons while the other pottied the baby, then we would switch (one going to get food or what have you), and then when both of us were settled, one would walk/play with the baby in the waiting area while the other read/rested. and we took turns.

because of our process, we had to go through security many times, and so once getting off a plane, we would have to transfer from domestic to itnernational flight, for example, going through security to get on that flight, and then once in NZ, getting off one flight and transfering to domestic--going through pass port control, inspection of our items, etc, and then back through security for the domestic flights.

so, i think we went through security about 6 times just to get here, and it was helpful to have hands free when he would nto be wrapped (also security didn't want him wrapped so that they could check us thoroughly).

otherwise, it is just a stuffed toy to him (i remove the leash when we are at home, because it is jsut a choking hazard IMO), and he loves his "monkey baby" and plays with it often. he also likes t attach it to his back pack (one of the carriers we use) so that his baby can also go for a ride).


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elmh23* 
*Honestly, this is all because you have a compliant child.* My first was that way and it's great. My second loves "red light, green light" unless we're out in public and and then "red light" turns in to "run faster light." It took until he was almost 3 for him to understand that he is not allowed to go in the street unless a parent is right next to him. Parking lots are my personal hell for similar reasons (though it's slowly getting better now!)

ETA: Our leash is a bear backpack harness that ds LOVES, so very un-dog like.

Yes. I agree. I have a child who is a runner. Or, rather, a bolter. Bolts everywhere, full speed, often not looking out for things that are in the way.

I have been out so many times with friends whose children are the same age and whose children STAY BY THEM for the most part at parks, stores, parking lots.

They might go off 5 feet or so, but they do not run off.

My child runs.

He does this at daycare, too. Runs off. So, it's not like I'm just not watching my child adequately.

My child has major sensory issues and I think the running is part of this.

I've used a leash, and it works wonders. It's sensory feedback (the harness). It calms and regulates my child. We have one of the bear ones too. Not at all like a dog lease. To say that is sort of belittling and missing the point, I think.

I've received some comments from afar, though, while DS has used the leash. It does hurt my feelings and I think some people just have no understanding. On them I wish someday they too will have a runner, so they will know what it's like to walk in our shoes.

I see nothing wrong with using a leash if it's for safety. They make some very inconspicuous, fun ones. They are not demeaning. And for kids with sensory integration issues, a harness is like a weighted vest - it's regulating and therapeutic.


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## felix23 (Nov 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaB21* 
I meant carelessness as in accidental. I don't see many kids hanging out in the middle of a bonfire just for kicks. If they fall in, it's an accident, right? Curiousity is a little different from confusion. Curiousity might bring you close to danger, but _usually_ there are still personal boundaries in place. Not everyones personal boundaries are the same. My DD's were WAY wider than mine. There were times we'd be at the pool when she was a toddler and she'd sit right on the side, or go running full force toward the pool as if to dive right in head first. It took all that I had not to yell "STOP!" or run and grab her. But 10 times out of 10 she did stop when she got to the edge even though it didn't look like she would. She would turn around and go in slowly. (FYI, I was always in a safe distance to help her, or in the pool myself so no real risk of her being in danger. I just had to prepare for it ahead of time because I knew as soon as she saw the pool she'd run right for it).

One more clarification for everyone - this whole infant innate sense of safety thing has really been scrutinized. All the points made about that are valid, and I agree with all of you who are saying it's not enough. I _personally_ believe that we _are_ born with safety limits, yet they continue to develop a lot through our young life. Infants who are worn on a daily basis are able to stay out of harms way while observing the safety limits of adults in their culture. Infants who aren't worn every day are still able to pick up on the actions and danger cues of those around them. Once toddlerhood hits, they take on a little more hands on method of learning safety. I'm not afraid to let my kids get hurt in the process of learning. (I'm talking falling down, bumps and bruises here, obviously not putting my kids in extreme danger).

I forget who asked about the difference in hand holding versus leashes? Sorry. For me, the difference is that hand holding happens during clearly dangerous situations, therefore signally a hightened stated of awareness. I hold DD's hand briefly to cross the street. While on a sidewalk she isn't made to hold hands. Maybe the main differences here are that we don't typically go anywhere super dangerous. We do a lot of city walking, but haven't run into a problem. We don't go to air ports. We only go to the fair once a year, and to the mall infrequently and when we do it never seems dangerously crowded.

I am glad for you that you have a child who obeys so well and seems to know how to avoid danger, but that is not my reality. My reality is that I have a child who will dive head first into the pool 10 times out of 10, I have a child who will dart off the sidewalk into the road every chance she gets, who will dash off head first down the stairs at the mall, who, out of curiosity, grabbed the flame of the candle and will touch the red, hot stove every time she is close to it. I have a child who hated being swaddled and worn from the second she was born and has always wanted to be independent and free. And the best way for her to encourage safe, independent exploration is a child harness. Even as a toddler, she has no concept of personal safety. Sure, I have let her get bumps and bruises, but it never teaches her anything, she is fearless and the next time she will try and climb something higher and more dangerous.

I didn't do anything (or not do anything) to create her behavior, this is just who she is. And I'm sure that she will one day develop a better sense of safety, or she just might end up like her daddy and grow up to still do all sorts of crazy, dangerous things just for the thrill of it.


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## MammaB21 (Oct 30, 2007)

*eclipse* and *felix23* - Sounds like you both have thrill seekers on your hands. Your stories made me giggle and your children sound wonderfully fun!! I can most definitely see the benefit of using a leash in certain situations to allow your kids to feel more free to explore.







Every kid is different and every kid needs a different approach to learning. Maybe this next little guy coming in a couple of months will be jumping into pools and scaling walls. I might be coming back here to ask where to purchase the best leash.


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamatoablessing* 

I ask any parent who disagrees with the harness:

What would you do if your child screamed in the wrap, screamed in the stroller and ran away from you (or dropped to the ground and refused to move) if you tried to hold their hand? What do you do? Stay inside for the next 4 years, punishing everyone in the family by not being able to do anything? Not us. We're on the go all of the time and we like it that way. It's good for the kids to be out and about and not stuck inside all of the time.

as a mother of 5 children with #6 on the way i have had to deal with going out on my own with all of the kids. as of yet i have not had to use or felt the need to use a leash. if the littles don't want to hold my hand they usually hold someone elses. i guess maybe i lucked out, although i have a couple runners, and we have been to malls, airports, fairs, etc. i just give them the space they need and they stay pretty close, maybe my idea of safe and close are not the same as most people on this board, i don't know. i have had kids not want to be in the sling, hold hands or be held, so they walk. i found when i listen to them they actually listen to me. not talking smack to anyone here. it just always seemed to work out. so we go out alot, just me and the kids.

i also had a question: why is mammaB21 opinions less valid then those who use a leash? it seems that no matter how she explains her position she is miss read. if, for your and your child's safety you feel that a leash is important and valuable then use it! if someone else feels that they do not need one, then they have just as much right not to use one, and to voice their reasons not to use it. if it works for your family then do it. having read about 75% of this thread i see that people who are using the leashes feeling attached, yet i have not seen anyone say anything in that way. the OP asked for opinions, so there will be more then one, and people have different ways of dealing with challenging children.

as for mammaB21's info on CC i found that after reading it although i didn't agree with 100% of the stuff in it, i have parented better because of it, and i think my children have benifited from that greatly. anyway those are my thoughts.

h
h


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## writteninkursive (Feb 22, 2009)

I didn't read all the previous posts here, but wanted to say that we tried a backpack leash for DD1 when she was about 2 and would go crazy and run off in the grocery store. People looked at us like we were so horrible, and I felt awful. DD would just get a running start and then run as fast as she could and fall down when she hit as far as the leash would go. Then we were like half-dragging her, so we stopped using it. Instead we confined her to the cart (where she would scream in horror) and finally taught her that she can not just run around. Turns out if we kept her task-oriented ("Sophie, can you go with Daddy to find some peanut butter?") and let her put things in the cart, she was much much calmer. She's 4 now and thankfully, we haven't had that problem with any of our other kids up this point. Whew.


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dr.Worm* 
This is a perfect example of why these leashes are a good idea. When my dd was little she didnt run away from me like that but if she did I would want a leash too. I am to the point where I do not judge another mother because something isn't "ap enough." By the way, Dr. Sears started the name AP and baby leashes weren't on or off the list....what was was "doing what's best for your family."









i don't think i have seen anyone on this thread say flat out that they felt that a leash was non-AP. you keep saying it is some sort of AP contest. what i see is people giving their opinions like the OP asked. use one, don't use one, no one is attaching anyone. people just seem to get offended when someone says they don't need one.

h


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I also never sent her any message that I expected her to bolt. I didn't. She started doing that at about 15-16 months or something, whenever she saw something interesting.

And if you have a kid who bolts far and fast enough to pass out of your sight, you are out of their sight and they may not have the cognitive abilities to work out how to reasonably search for you.

I've had my kid bolt and get lost. Bolt and vanish around the corner of the aisle, then sit down crying when he can't figure out where I am. The experience/memory of "being lost" even for a few seconds/minutes wasn't enough to prevent him from bolting the next time too. 99% of the time I did know where he was (he also hasn't stopped talking constantly at the top of his voice since about 22 months) so I could calmly locate him and go collect him without reacting in a strong way to the bolting itself. But in his case, nope, experience didn't help worth a damn. Only him getting older did.


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## akwifeandmomma (Aug 13, 2005)

I haven't, but I would if I needed to.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaB21* 
*eclipse* and *felix23* - Sounds like you both have thrill seekers on your hands. Your stories made me giggle and your children sound wonderfully fun!! I can most definitely see the benefit of using a leash in certain situations to allow your kids to feel more free to explore.







Every kid is different and every kid needs a different approach to learning. Maybe this next little guy coming in a couple of months will be jumping into pools and scaling walls. I might be coming back here to ask where to purchase the best leash.

















Hey, FWIW, I commend you for sticking around the thread and participating. Leashes have been controversial here for some time, and in the past the threads got ugly (some are likely in thread jail now). After the most recent one I was involved in where I stated my opinion (pretty much anti-leash if there is such a thing), I vowed to never debate leashes here again - and yet... here I am, standing up for them in this conversation.







While I have yet to use one, I certainly have changed my outlook on them after reading about others experiences, and thinking back to situations with my own children where I know they could have came in handy. And yes, babies are so different. You might have one who sticks close and seems to understand danger and listens well, and the next one will be on top of the refrigerator before he's even walking.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaofthree* 
i don't think i have seen anyone on this thread say flat out that they felt that a leash was non-AP. you keep saying it is some sort of AP contest. what i see is people giving their opinions like the OP asked. use one, don't use one, no one is attaching anyone. people just seem to get offended when someone says they don't need one.

h

In the past people have said that, flat out, and I think that has contributed to the way some of us 'hear' comments about it. Not that this is fair, but it is human.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaofthree* 
as a mother of 5 children with #6 on the way i have had to deal with going out on my own with all of the kids. as of yet i have not had to use or felt the need to use a leash. if the littles don't want to hold my hand they usually hold someone elses. i guess maybe i lucked out, although i have a couple runners, and we have been to malls, airports, fairs, etc. i just give them the space they need and they stay pretty close, maybe my idea of safe and close are not the same as most people on this board, i don't know. i have had kids not want to be in the sling, hold hands or be held, so they walk. i found when i listen to them they actually listen to me. not talking smack to anyone here. it just always seemed to work out. so we go out alot, just me and the kids.

i also had a question: why is mammaB21 opinions less valid then those who use a leash? it seems that no matter how she explains her position she is miss read. if, for your and your child's safety you feel that a leash is important and valuable then use it! if someone else feels that they do not need one, then they have just as much right not to use one, and to voice their reasons not to use it. if it works for your family then do it. having read about 75% of this thread i see that people who are using the leashes feeling attached, yet i have not seen anyone say anything in that way. the OP asked for opinions, so there will be more then one, and people have different ways of dealing with challenging children.

as for mammaB21's info on CC i found that after reading it although i didn't agree with 100% of the stuff in it, i have parented better because of it, and i think my children have benifited from that greatly. anyway those are my thoughts.

h
h


A big reason why I don't need a leash with my second is because I have an 8-year-old too. I think it's probably easier to have a toddler who bolts AND an older child because you have an extra pair of eyes (and hands) on them. If you have six kids, you have at least two easily old enough to help with the little ones.

The reason people respond they way they do to voices against it is because they often (but not always) seem to be examples of why one person didn't need a leash with either a spoken or unspoken undercurrent of "if I didn't need one then I don't believe anyone really needed one." I have not needed one, but I do keep my mind open that other people have other specific circumstances and I can't judge their choices based on my life and circumstances.


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

well that is assuming i didn't have 6 kids each a year apart. which is true i do have my kids spaced, and maybe that has helped, BUT i do run the gambit in kids behavior at my house. i have had ones that stay super close and ones that run like their pants are on fire. because i have felt that i wouldn't use a leash (not that i have issues with people who do) i have learned ways to deal with the running. i am in no way bashing anyone. what i have done works for my family, maybe my bolters are not as bolty as the other people bolters. that seems to be the contest here, no matter how wild and crazy someone says their kids are if they choose not to use a leash then their child isn't as wild and crazy as someone else's who do choose to use a leash. if the leash works for your family, then by all means use it, keep your kids safe and yourself sane. but if a family chooses not to, then they are not saying they are better then anyone who does (at least from what i have read. if you are coming from being "flamed" for using one then maybe giving the people the benefit of the doubt who are here talking about not using them.)

h


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaB21* 
My thought is that leashes are used for dogs as a way to show authority. It's a 'training' tool, and I don't train my children. If I see a dog on a leash tugging and pulling in the opposite direction, I chalk it up to bad dog ownership or inexperience in dog training. The leash is there to be slightly tugged at any time the dog wonders a bit from your side. You stop, dog stops. You walk, dog walks. You run, dog runs. *The dog isn't even supposed to be allowed to poop on walks because you have control over him just from the use of the leash.*









This whole post is so off base I don't even know where to start!

I own 4 dogs and have been working professionally with animals since I was old enough to legally work, so I feel as though I'm qualified to comment on this.

First, why wouldn't a dog be able to poop on a walk?! That's crazy. Isn't that the point of walking your dog, so they eliminate _outside_, and not on your carpet? Most responsible pet owners carry poop bags so they can clean up after their dogs. I've never met a dog owner who discouraged their dog from pooping while on a walk, unless of course they stopped in the play ground and the dog was trying to pop a squat in the sand at the bottom of the slide or something.

And second, leashes are not an authoritarian tool. LOL. Goodness. They are, first and foremost, designed to keep dogs safe. That is their number 1 use. No matter how experienced a pet owner someone is, or no matter how good they are at training their dog, some breeds HAVE to be on a leash at all times or they will be gone, dead, injured, hit by a car, etc. Scent hounds come to mind.

People train dogs to walk nicely on a leash because it aids in keeping dogs safe. Some breeds are large enough to drag an adult around by the leash, why _wouldn't_ they train them? The purpose of a leash to keep them safe is pointless if the dog will use that leash to drag its walker into traffic. They aid in controlling dogs to keep them safe, but the way you've outlined their use as being some sort of torture tool to make a dogs life miserable is so inaccurate.

Third, the vast majority of dog owners want their dogs to have FUN and be relaxed on a walk. Expecting a dog to perform so tightly in obedience that it may not eliminate is usually reserved for competition rings, not walking in the park.

And lastly, comparing dogs and children NEVER works. My dogs also eat off the floor, lick their buts, roll in bird poop, and get their baths outside with a garden hose. Their is NOTHING remotely similar between them or my preschooler, even if some of the things I use on both might share the same name or look similar or serve similar purposes.

A leash on a dog and a leash on a child do not at all serve the same purpose. Comparing the two to vilainize child leashes is a comparison fail. Apples and oranges.


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

i think once again her post is being miss read. what i got from it was that that was a reason that some people would view a leash as degrading to children. someone asked why people would see them that way.
and once again people who choose to use a leash on their child need not feel attacked just because someone else does not choose to use one. am i worse parent because i choose not to use them? do i care less about my children's safety? i could turn all the arguments around. i could feel attacked because i just let my kids walk ahead of me, i let them run... does someone feel i let my children do dangerous things because i don't have a leash on them?

h


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

No, those arguments don't hold water.

Some parents in some situations _need_ to use a leash. If you live in a remote place, never travel by air, never are in a busy parking lot and you have a very good child who stays close by, you don't need one. I had a very active child who showed no caution. He wasn't verbal until 2 1/2 and being bilingual, understood the other language better. I fly long haul international flights about twice a year. If someone who barely steps out of their house thinks I'm a bad parent because I occasionally used a leash on my child, too bad.

No one is saying parents _have_ to use them but not to judge those who do. I used one on my first but not on my next two. I care about them just as much!

I never used it to "control" him, just to keep him from getting hurt or lost.

But to say they're degrading is not looking at things realistically. These parents might have very little in common with parents who feel they have to use this to keep their child safe. It doesn't harm the child nor is it degrading. If you over-analyze almost anything with babies, you could make a "degrading" argument about almost anything.


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

here it is again... it is like some sort of contest. it shouldn't be. i have said it before i have 5 kids, some stay close others run like the wind, i take them out, we do things, live in the city, walk thru parking lots, walk around busy streets, etc. it seems that people who choose them want to justify why they use them to those who choose not to. it isn't a contest as to who is the better parent. i have said other non-users have said it.. if you need it use it. for goodness sake you don't need to go on and on about how come you needed it. you just did. that is why i posted my comments above, if my kids run crazy, make a b-line for the street and do all those other things and i don't use one, could someone say i am a bad parent? if not they way does everyone who uses them think everyone is thinking they aren't good parents?

h


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaofthree* 
if not they way does everyone who uses them think everyone is thinking they aren't good parents?

h

Because we've heard it over and over and over and over and over. Honestly, how many people have told you, flat out, that you're a bad parent or abusive, because you don't use a harness? I've had multiple people say that, both here and elsewhere. Were you saying that? I guess not - your posts did strike me that way, but you've said you weren't, so you weren't. But, when you've heard it over and over again, and the arguments for why it's abusive include the "my situation is just like yours and/or worse than yours and _I_ never needed one", it does tend to make one sensitive to that particular line of thinking.


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

You have the kind of lifestyle and the kind of kids who don't need them. That's fine!

You probably just look out for the occasional traffic or whatever. That's good! You're kids might "go crazy" from time to time but they probably don't bolt or have autism or whatever. You probably don't fly alone on international flights with three small kids like I did. You probably don't know what that's like. You don't need to justify not using one or imply that it's not necessary for other parents.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

(note: dd has been in a harness once in her life, otherwise, I haven't needed one.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaofthree* 
if not they way does everyone who uses them think everyone is thinking they aren't good parents?

h

Because even people who can see their utility use offensive language regarding them.

Quote:

sorry but I think they are degrading. I cringe every time I see one. I can see their utility but I hope to avoid it.
And the people who don't think they have any place as a tool are even blunter:

Quote:

I think they're ghastly.
Both comments are from MDC mamas who could be expected to keep the child's feelings in mind, imagine how non-gentle adults who disapprove of harnesses would act?

The more people there are who are critical of child harnesses, the more chances for the experience of this MDCer to be repeated:

Quote:

Mainly because I remember my mom putting a leash on me, I remember the stares and comments from strangers and I remember how embarrassing and humiliating it was.
She would not have been embarrassed and humiliated without the stares and comments from strangers.


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
First, why wouldn't a dog be able to poop on a walk?! That's crazy. Isn't that the point of walking your dog, so they eliminate _outside_, and not on your carpet? Most responsible pet owners carry poop bags so they can clean up after their dogs. I've never met a dog owner who discouraged their dog from pooping while on a walk, unless of course they stopped in the play ground and the dog was trying to pop a squat in the sand at the bottom of the slide or something.

I think the post above was a mis-interpretation of the teaching that a dog shouldn't poop while on heel, but can poop when on free (which is what we teach in the training I have done). It allows you some additional control over where they do poop--we have really anal neighbors who could have a breakdown if a dog pooped on their lawn even if you cleaned it up, so the dogs I've owned/fostered have mainly all pooped in the common area if we could get there in time.

And if your dog seriously needs to poop, umm, get him to an appropriate place and put him on free.


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## dex_millie (Oct 19, 2006)

I have no problems with a Child Lease. This thing that it is for dog, gets me. Who said a dog was made to be on a lease, they on a lease so they don't bother or hurt anyone, what is wrong with wanting the same protection for your child ohhh yea because we know a lease to mean for dogs







. I see it as a way to be careful for those people that have children that tend to run away.

I rather a lease than my child running in the street, getting lost at a busy place or screaming to get out of the stroller but can't because the place is too busy and it would be too much to hold their hand and push a stroller.

I was even thinking those leases where you can make it go long and then short again would be great!! That way I can let DD go to the end of the aisle in the store and stop her there. She tends to want to walk to other aisles without looking for me of course (she 14months) and she doesn't stay in a cart once it stop moving she actually will get up and stand in it.

Once again I see it as if you feel your child needs it go ahead, if not then fine but don't critize those you see with it.

For me by a certain age I wouldn't expect to use them. My son is 3 and for his personality I would say he is too old for it. I never had to worry with him. For those worried about other people making children feel bad I guess that would have to be at a certain age


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## dex_millie (Oct 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eclipsepearl* 
You have the kind of lifestyle and the kind of kids who don't need them. That's fine!

You probably just look out for the occasional traffic or whatever. That's good! You're kids might "go crazy" from time to time but they probably don't bolt or have autism or whatever. You probably don't fly alone on international flights with three small kids like I did. You probably don't know what that's like. You don't need to justify not using one or imply that it's not necessary for other parents.









: I can't believe I am on this thread like this and I never owned one but I understand the need some people will have for them. And really rather see that than a frantic mom running in the street for her child.

I travel internationally also mostly it was with 1 child but now it is going to be two (7/8 hour flight with stops). I was thinking of getting one for that and for my parents when they are with my children. I am sure my 1 year old can out run my mom and my 3 1/2 can but he listens.


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## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
In the past people have said that, flat out, and I think that has contributed to the way some of us 'hear' comments about it. Not that this is fair, but it is human.










Yep I just don't want feelings to get hurt from moms who do use them.


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## olien (Apr 21, 2008)

yes.

We originally got one - backpack style - for the airport. I was just 8mo pg and ds was a fast 17mo. I couldnt keep up with him at that point I just knew it was going to be tough.

It was the best $15 I ever spent









It gave him the freedom to be on the move & us the peace of mind we needed.

It also came in handy at the end of my pg. I could take him for much needed walks & keep him at my slower pace. I have also used it at festivals & other crowded places. He loves the freedom & actually asks to wear his 'pack'.

AP or not - I love it & so does DS.

BTW I dont use it all the time maybe 2 or 3x a month.


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## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Because we've heard it over and over and over and over and over. Honestly, how many people have told you, flat out, that you're a bad parent or abusive, because you don't use a harness? I've had multiple people say that, both here and elsewhere. Were you saying that? I guess not - your posts did strike me that way, but you've said you weren't, so you weren't. But, when you've heard it over and over again, and the arguments for why it's abusive include the "my situation is just like yours and/or worse than yours and _I_ never needed one", it does tend to make one sensitive to that particular line of thinking.

Yes, I don't even use them but I feel the need to defend the moms who do.


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## MammaB21 (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 







This whole post is so off base I don't even know where to start!

I own 4 dogs and have been working professionally with animals since I was old enough to legally work, so I feel as though I'm qualified to comment on this.

First, why wouldn't a dog be able to poop on a walk?! That's crazy. Isn't that the point of walking your dog, so they eliminate _outside_, and not on your carpet? Most responsible pet owners carry poop bags so they can clean up after their dogs. I've never met a dog owner who discouraged their dog from pooping while on a walk, unless of course they stopped in the play ground and the dog was trying to pop a squat in the sand at the bottom of the slide or something.

And second, leashes are not an authoritarian tool. LOL. Goodness. They are, first and foremost, designed to keep dogs safe. That is their number 1 use. No matter how experienced a pet owner someone is, or no matter how good they are at training their dog, some breeds HAVE to be on a leash at all times or they will be gone, dead, injured, hit by a car, etc. Scent hounds come to mind.

People train dogs to walk nicely on a leash because it aids in keeping dogs safe. Some breeds are large enough to drag an adult around by the leash, why _wouldn't_ they train them? The purpose of a leash to keep them safe is pointless if the dog will use that leash to drag its walker into traffic. They aid in controlling dogs to keep them safe, but the way you've outlined their use as being some sort of torture tool to make a dogs life miserable is so inaccurate.

Third, the vast majority of dog owners want their dogs to have FUN and be relaxed on a walk. Expecting a dog to perform so tightly in obedience that it may not eliminate is usually reserved for competition rings, not walking in the park.

And lastly, comparing dogs and children NEVER works. My dogs also eat off the floor, lick their buts, roll in bird poop, and get their baths outside with a garden hose. Their is NOTHING remotely similar between them or my preschooler, even if some of the things I use on both might share the same name or look similar or serve similar purposes.

A leash on a dog and a leash on a child do not at all serve the same purpose. Comparing the two to vilainize child leashes is a comparison fail. Apples and oranges.

This is really off topic, but I just wanted to comment on it briefly. I'm not a dog trainer, but from the research I _have_ done I've found that dogs have a greater need to follow rules. It's part of their nature, it's not mean. I didn't say anywhere in my post that I think people should be mean or 'torture' their dogs or make their lives miserable. That just boggles my mind that my post was interpreted that way. A trained dog is a happy dog. I live in a city which means no place for a dog to poop while on a walk. That is what the back yard is for. Bathroom time. A walk is for excersize, training, stimulation, work for the dog and at the end, play time. In a pack setting a dog wouldn't be able to poop wherever he pleases. There is a time and a place for that. I said nothing about dog parks or the like. As for a leash being there to protect the dog.....sorry, but IMHO that's second in importance. The reason it's a law to have a dog on a leash is to protect other PEOPLE. Sure a dog can run out into traffic, but in doing so there is potential to cause an accident in which case the human lives at risk take priority over the dogs. Yes, I'd like my animals to be safe and it's one reason to use a leash, but the main point in _leash training_ is the training. Owners want a dog who knows it's place in the pack, and the dog wants to be fulfilled in that way. It's a win win situation and isn't at all bad for the dog. There is way more to having a dog behave on leash than just the safety of the dog.

Phew. Okay, now back to the original topic.


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## MammaB21 (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cschick* 
I think the post above was a mis-interpretation of the teaching that a dog shouldn't poop while on heel, but can poop when on free (which is what we teach in the training I have done). It allows you some additional control over where they do poop--we have really anal neighbors who could have a breakdown if a dog pooped on their lawn even if you cleaned it up, so the dogs I've owned/fostered have mainly all pooped in the common area if we could get there in time.

And if your dog seriously needs to poop, umm, get him to an appropriate place and put him on free.

Yup. Exactly. I wasn't talking about punishing a dog for pooping on a walk. The way I've seen it done is to just not stop for the dog. I've read, heard, and experienced first hand that a lot of the 'potty stops' dogs make on walks are simply to mark their territory, which isn't something that should be encouraged. There is plenty of time for a potty break before and after the actual walk which should be more of a mission, training session, or work out.


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## MammaB21 (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eclipsepearl* 
You have the kind of lifestyle and the kind of kids who don't need them. That's fine!

You probably just look out for the occasional traffic or whatever. That's good! You're kids might "go crazy" from time to time but they probably don't bolt or have autism or whatever. You probably don't fly alone on international flights with three small kids like I did. You probably don't know what that's like. You don't need to justify not using one or imply that it's not necessary for other parents.

See, this is exactly what I was offended by earlier on in this thread which is what has prompted me to continue to post. (And I'm not trying to call you out Eclipsepearl. I've seen other similar posts so I quoted yours as an example). I think that those of us who are making a choice not to use child leashes are taking this tone as an insult. It's basically disregarding all the reasons we've stated for not using one by simply saying we have it easier or we must just be lucky, or have a less complicated life or a calmer child...etc, etc. Heaven forbid we actually have not so compliant children and chose not to parent the same way as someone else. What I've quoted above is just taking on the exact same attitude you're trying to defend against.

I think all of us here can agree that it is hard work raising toddlers who are exploring their very new and exciting world. It's hard to find a way to keep them by our side and safe. It's tough to find a happy medium between allowing them to wonder and explore while not losing our minds with fear. Let's not assume to know each others circumstances, because that just isn't fair. I'm working just as hard as all of you who are using leashes and vise versa. I think those of us who are deciding against leashes have already made it clear that we're not against other parents making that choice. I'd just like to see the same respect in return here.


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## Zan&Zav (Nov 25, 2006)

my son has autism. he has no problem walking into the ocean in low temps. he doesnt feel pain. he has no sense of danger. this summer he will be wearing a leash. he is 3. i have gotten rude comments but i don't care. he is safe. he also hates being touched since birth. this is the safest way for us for him to be happy.


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## rachel1496 (Oct 15, 2009)

I've never used one on my niece and I'll likely never have to use one on my son. My nephew however, totally different story. Not only is he a bolter he has absolutely no sense of danger. I know for a fact he will run headlong into rush hour traffic because I was present for the 15 heart stopping seconds last week when he almost did just that. It still takes my breath away and makes me sick just thinking about what would have happened had my sister not caught him in time, less than 2 feet from the edge of the road.

He is still expected to walk beside us when we're out and if he doesn't then he has to hold someone's hand even if he's wearing his monkey backpack but the tether gives the security we need to know that if he _does_ choose to bolt he can't get far enough to put himself in imminent danger.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaB21* 
What I've quoted above is just taking on the exact same attitude you're trying to defend against.

What people are trying to defend against is the notion that because _some_ people don't use leashes, that _all_ people shouldn't use leashes.

This argument very much reminds me of the organic food debates. A group of people on a budget who are fortunate enough to be able to source out great deals or co-ops for organic products assume that everyone should, regardless of their income or geographic locations. Unfortunately, that is impossible.

Because ONE person (or a group of people) can do something, doesn't mean everyone can. _That_ is the tone that people are defending themselves against, and rightfully so. It is painfully indignant of some people to place their expectations on families that they don't even know!

When someone says they use it so their autistic child doesn't run into the ocean, or because they have bad back and can't chase a toddler before they hit traffic, or because of some other reason, no one is disrespecting your choices, they're simply saying "hey, I'm not a lazy SOB who doesn't care about my kids, it just happens to work for us".

I'm really sorry you're offended, but perhaps standing back for a minute and thinking about why some parents feel the NEED to defend themselves will clear some things up.


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## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
What people are trying to defend against is the notion that because _some_ people don't use leashes, that _all_ people shouldn't use leashes.

This argument very much reminds me of the organic food debates. A group of people on a budget who are fortunate enough to be able to source out great deals or co-ops for organic products assume that everyone should, regardless of their income or geographic locations. Unfortunately, that is impossible.

Because ONE person (or a group of people) can do something, doesn't mean everyone can. _That_ is the tone that people are defending themselves against, and rightfully so. It is painfully indignant of some people to place their expectations on families that they don't even know!

When someone says they use it so their autistic child doesn't run into the ocean, or because they have bad back and can't chase a toddler before they hit traffic, or because of some other reason, no one is disrespecting your choices, they're simply saying "hey, I'm not a lazy SOB who doesn't care about my kids, it just happens to work for us".

I'm really sorry you're offended, but perhaps standing back for a minute and thinking about why some parents feel the NEED to defend themselves will clear some things up.


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## Lucy Alden (Jun 15, 2009)

Thank you North_Of_60! You summed it up perfectly. I kind of want to hug you right now.


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## MammaB21 (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
What people are trying to defend against is the notion that because _some_ people don't use leashes, that _all_ people shouldn't use leashes.

I understand that completely, I just haven't seen that on this particular thread. I haven't ever said it, in fact I've clearly stated more than once that I don't have anything against parents who chose to use them for _any_ reasons. What I've seen more of on this thread are people making blanketed statements about the lives of those choosing _not_ to use leashes. "You probably don't live near traffic, you don't go out, you have children who listen, you only have one child...etc etc." It's not necessarily a put down, but that can be taken in a less than friendly way.


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## bluebirdiemama (May 2, 2008)

I have had to chase down my 3 yo before, in public places, and with my dd. I may have to eat my words in the future (my dd is a strong willed one), but I think child leashes are... odd. And it will be an absolute last resort, if I do have to use one.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

What's odd about them?


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## peainthepod (Jul 16, 2008)

I used to think they were degrading and weird and swore I'd never get one. As with many preconceptions I had about parenting, that flew right out the window when my son started walking and we quickly learned that he's a runner.

A couple of weekends ago we decided to try out our new camping gear (tent, sleeping bags) by having a little mini campout in the backyard. We live in the country on several manicured acres, so you'd think it'd be perfectly safe, right? Wrong. I put him down and turned around to hand something to DH. By the time I turned back around, my son was easily 20 yards away, running like a streak downhill, and headed straight for the frog pond. I'm pregnant and easily winded and I caught up to him, but only just.

That night I ordered a cute backpack harness shaped like a puppy. I don't really care what other parents think about it, because their kid isn't my kid and they aren't responsible for his safety. I am. And I decided that I'd rather have him on a tether than screaming and uncomfortable in the Ergo, miserable in a stroller he hates, or sitting and throwing a tantrum on the street or on a hiking trail because he refuses to hold hands.

It's easy to judge until it's your kid. I'm feeling pretty sheepish about my previous opinions regarding leashes and toddlers and wish I'd been more open-minded. But as they say, experience is the best teacher.


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## momo7 (Apr 10, 2005)

I have 9 children that range in age from 21 yrs down to just 1 year. I think I used a "child restraint" (because I cannot bring myself to call it a "leash") maybe once or twice. I gave it up because it strapped to the wrist and my lovely child would simply unstrap it with his other hand and go about his business.









I think they are a great idea, however, for those parents who need one and it works.

I have never yet had a child who had even a micron of "inborn safety". My children came out of the womb racing into the unknown and damn the dangers or consequences. I have a herd of pyromaniacs and cliff jumpers. They roam where ever their free spirit may take them and I am frantically running behind them, forever the harried mother duck. Squawking at them to head my warnings of danger that go unheeded at every twist and turn on their life road.









I should own a "leash" factory because of the crap I have been through because of my children.

To you moms who use them, you know your children better than anyone. You know their safety depends on it and you have courage to own up to it.


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## newmommy7-08 (Feb 2, 2008)

I personally don't like them... BUT have nothing against anyone who uses them properly. The ones that drive me nuts are the people who actually pull the child around by the leash, or ignore the child because they're on the leash so where are they going to go?

I WISH I could get over my dislike because I can't keep up w/ DS as well as I could before getting so pregnant, so we stay in a lot because I'm too afraid to take him on walks by myself.


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## zippy_francis (Jan 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *peainthepod* 
It's easy to judge until it's your kid. I'm feeling pretty sheepish about my previous opinions regarding leashes and toddlers and wish I'd been more open-minded. But as they say, experience is the best teacher.









I think this is the best way to put it. So many people do have preconcieved notions about all kinds of things and sometimes it can be a lesson learned, especially hard for those who judged too harshly in the begining.

It is like when moms are out there saying women who get epidurals are not 'really' experiencing childbirth. I myself have never had one, but I couldnt imagine saying something like that to other mom's. How rude. And it is especially amusing to me when those same mom's who say you arent really serious/committed/strong enough to not have one, end up getting one in the end...

Like the pp poster said about the organic example, no one lives the same life, with the same life experiences, and no one has the same children with the same personalities. What works for some doesnt for others, and that is ok.

Judge not lest ye be judged. On both sides of the coin.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy7-08* 
I WISH I could get over my dislike because I can't keep up w/ DS as well as I could before getting so pregnant, so we stay in a lot because I'm too afraid to take him on walks by myself.

I'm truly not arguing. It is entirely your right and decision as a parent not to use one.

But...when I read this I'm just a little bit sad that your dislike of this one thing is keeping you both indoors. It seems a heavy price to pay. It seems to me like keeping a kid off skates 'cause you don't like the look of a helmet.

This is what I don't get (not directed at you, just in general) about the whole "I hate leashes" crowd. It seems to be largely an asthetic argument. That and that the "child won't learn" - which may be true (for sure some people might misuse them), but for me AP has always been about trusting that if a need is met at the right stage, the natural growth will occur.

I agree that if someone is jerking a kid around that's not right, but people jerk kids around by the arm all the time and we don't all decide it's terrible to hold hands.

To my mind if you're pregnant and you want to go out for a walk, whatever helps with that is a plus. Congrats btw


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaB21* 
Haven't read the whole thread yet.

My thought is that leashes are used for dogs as a way to show authority. It's a 'training' tool, and I don't train my children. If I see a dog on a leash tugging and pulling in the opposite direction, I chalk it up to bad dog ownership or inexperience in dog training. The leash is there to be slightly tugged at any time the dog wonders a bit from your side. You stop, dog stops. You walk, dog walks. You run, dog runs. The dog isn't even supposed to be allowed to poop on walks because you have control over him just from the use of the leash.

Anyway, that's my issue with child leashes. I don't train my children in that way. *I encourage them to be free spirits and explore and control their own environment*. I tried to follow the continuum concept with DD and that involves not reminding her to 'follow me' or 'stop' or 'don't do that' 'come back'. The theory is that children left to their own devices will establish their own safety level and follow mom closely on their own. With that said, I realize that we don't necessarily live in a safe enough community to practice this 24/7. There are times it's just impossible, like crossing the street or walking through a huge crowed. I also was 'blessed' (hehe) with a very adventurous child. Her personal boundaries were much wider than my own would be and we struggled with that. I think _I_ would have benefited had she had a leash, but in the long run I think it would have been detrimental to her creating her own limits of safety. I can say that now, at 4 years old, her boundaries have narrowed and she's much more cautious than she was as a toddler. I think that's a direct result of her being allowed to absorb her own environment.

The bold is exactly why I used a harness when ds1 was little. It allowed him the freedom to explore that he wanted and gave me the means by which to keep him safe in crowds or near roadways. Little ones can find openings in crowds that adults can't pass through. The first time I was met with a wall of people standing between me and my child who was headed full tilt toward the mall fountain, I knew I had to do something else than what I was doing.

I never use the harness as a means by which to train my child. That simply wasn't the purpose. I never tugged on the lead to get him to follow me. A child in a leash is like a cat or a rabbit in a leash: you have to go where they choose to lead. It just gives that extra measure of control should an emergency situation where a child's life is in danger arise.

One could argue that diapers or having one's diaper changed is degrading. One could argue that having to be fed or dressed is also degrading, but these are things we must do for our children to keep them healthy and safe. I don't personally see harness use as any different. They're not for everyone, but for some children, they're lifesavers, literally.


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## pumpkinhead (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eclipsepearl* 
I agree that a crib ("cage") bothers me more than a leash. The other day I say a baby crying and the mother automatically shoved a pacifier in his mouth to shut him up. No attempt was made to pick him up and/or try to see what was wrong. Sorry but that is much, _much_ more offensive and anti-AP than any leash..

I thought AP was about anticipating a child's needs and responding to them? Sometimes non-stereotypical AP things work for certian babies. I think we should all reserve judgment until we actually know the whole situation.

When my second son was a newborn, he had pretty painful reflux. When he was actively refluxing, he didn't want to be held or soothed. He hurt and the pacifier was one of the only things that would help him besides the boob. If he'd just eaten, nursing him again just made things worse so, you might have seen me pop a pacifier in his mouth at some point in time without picking him up. I knew what was wrong and until we put him on heavy duty reflux meds the paci was the only other thing that would help him. It's hard to think that others might have been watching and finding my behaviour offensive.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinhead* 
I thought AP was about anticipating a child's needs and responding to them? Sometimes non-stereotypical AP things work for certian babies. I think we should all reserve judgment until we actually know the whole situation.

Exactly. Some babies sleep better in a crib - should those moms force their children to co-sleep just so that they can remain "AP"? What about the toddlers who hate holding hands but love to walk? Isn't a harness a better way to keep that child safe instead of carrying or riding in a stroller since it allows the child the freedom they crave while keeping them safe from the dangers of bolting from mom or dad? My daughters were only soothed when tired by their pacifiers - should I have denied them because a pacifier isn't AP?

I personally think that it is more important to meet a child's needs and keep them as happy as possible - even if it means that I am judged for being un-AP in my ways.


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## momasana (Aug 24, 2007)

In my short few years as a mother I have learned that no matter what you do, someone is going to give you a high-five and someone else will give you a dirty look. Who cares?

As long as we are thorough in our thought process and confident that we are making decisions that are best for our own family, who gives a flip what anyone else thinks? You know?


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## zippy_francis (Jan 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momasana* 
In my short few years as a mother I have learned that no matter what you do, someone is going to give you a high-five and someone else will give you a dirty look. Who cares?

As long as we are thorough in our thought process and confident that we are making decisions that are best for our own family, who gives a flip what anyone else thinks? You know?

Could not have said it better myself.









Which is also why I refuse to call myself AP or any other 'label'. I hate labels and checklists for my parenting style or any other way to live my life. I guess I refused to be categorized, becuase then you feel bad about what you do or dont do.


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## provocativa (Jan 17, 2005)

i never got a leash, in part because of discussions here but also dirty looks in public. and i totally regret it. my second has no impulse control even at age 4 now she is just developing a bit. and she is a long-legged sprinter. i missed so many events because she wouldn't stay with us, and the stroller was impractical, and she had gotten big enough to dislike being slinged all the time. the only way to keep her alive was to skip events- she is so fast and impulsive. if if if i had started with the leash on her sister (who liked to run away but wasn't as fast) when i was pregnant with dd2, and then used it with dd2 when she was ready, i would have been able to keep my wahm business and a bit of social life, both of which i desperately need now.


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## kcstar (Mar 20, 2009)

I used the leash from somewhere around 18 months to around 2.5 years. At almost-three we haven't used it in what seems like a long time. He knows his boundaries, watches his cues from us, can walk on the sidewalk or hold hands in the street, etc. Next time we fly, though, I might get it out again.

Every child is different.


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## Pirogi (Apr 5, 2007)

Wow! I haven't read all nine pages. Apparently this is a tricky subject for some.

We have used a leash with our daughter while traveling through an airport, and also when we took a public transportation train that had electrified rails.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *childsplay* 
Yup, I used them. Mainly because I had two hands and three kids under three. We lived in a hot climate and wearing them - especially when they were bigger was heat stroke inducing.

I had a long rope with clips on it, I'd clip it around their waists and just hold the end.

One woman remarked to me that she found it so sad.

I said ya, I know, but their funeral's would be even sadder.









HA!!! I love it!!!


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaB21* 









In a natural environment you wouldn't put a baby on a 4 foot changing table. That would be consitant with the examples I gave of common sense parenting coupled with allowing a child the freedom to learn safety limits.

They do know that fire is hot. Fire gives off heat whether you touch it or not and it doesn't take much of that heat to pull back or know to stay away. Most fire accidents come from carelessness, not confusion about the fact that the fire is hot.

Again, I agree with all of you that in our society we have man made dangers and therefore I don't trust to use this theory 100% of the time. There are times I remind my daughter to "stop at the end of the sidewalk to hold my hand". But as a general rule I think we show our kids what we expect from them. If we show them that we expect that they'll run from us, they interpret it as reassurance that it's okay to run from us. It's not okay, and they have to learn that sooner or later. I'd just prefer they learn it sooner, I guess.

My kiddos (especially ds1) doesn't have this instinct...he will run right up to a bonfire. He'd never jump into it but being the prone to trip little boy that he is I keep him away from them because...well, as I said...he's prone to tripping, stumbling...what-have-you.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy7-08* 
I personally don't like them... BUT have nothing against anyone who uses them properly. The ones that drive me nuts are the people who actually pull the child around by the leash, or ignore the child because they're on the leash so where are they going to go?

I WISH I could get over my dislike because I can't keep up w/ DS as well as I could before getting so pregnant, so we stay in a lot because I'm too afraid to take him on walks by myself.

I use a leash. It is the only way I can manage to take my two girls, 1.5 and 3.5, outdoors every single day, and to cultural events once a week. It is the ONLY way. Baby hates the stroller, goes nuts in the carrier when she wants to walk, and will. not. hold. my. hand.

And did I mention she darts into the street?

Mama, if you think it's hard with one and pregnant, imagine with two newborns!

If you don't want to use a leash, that is fine. But if that's "not working" for your family--meaning, your child is staying inside more than you'd like at an age when outdoor play is critical--is it really that big of a deal?

I never thought I'd use a leash. But with two darters (And don't think I didn't try to train them, but what can I do when they run off? Punish them at the age of one?!? They just learn mommy brings them back from the street.), two under three at one point, and a love of the outdoors and culture that I share with my children, this is the best alternative for us.

It is the only way I could have them both roaming about, exploring.

Quote:

One woman remarked to me that she found it so sad.

I said ya, I know, but their funeral's would be even sadder.
Perfect. Consider it stolen!


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaB21* 
*eclipse* and *felix23* - Sounds like you both have thrill seekers on your hands. Your stories made me giggle and your children sound wonderfully fun!! I can most definitely see the benefit of using a leash in certain situations to allow your kids to feel more free to explore.







Every kid is different and every kid needs a different approach to learning. Maybe this next little guy coming in a couple of months will be jumping into pools and scaling walls. I might be coming back here to ask where to purchase the best leash.



















I hope not, for your sanity!!!!


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## Lucy&Jude'sMama (Jun 4, 2010)

I have one that's a puppy backpack/leash. I got it when I was frustrated with my daughter because she was refusing to hold my hand, go in an ergo, and ride in the stroller... She had just learned to run and was using it to her advantage.... Soo on one of those very frustrating days I just bought one. My daughter was about 15 months at the time. I used it maybe 3-4 times since.

I don't have any judgement on parents who use them and don't think one way is better than the other. I personally didn't really like it and it honestly was more of a hassle for me than helpful. My daughter now holds my hand very well and on days that she refuses to hold my hand the option is being picked up and taken home or going in the stroller. I don't make her hold my hand all the time. If we are in a safe area away from cars I don't mind her walking beside me or just a little bit ahead. I'm working on getting her to stop and come back to me if I tell her too. She was really bad about it at first but is just now starting to show some improvement. I'm currently trying to give her a little bit of independence but also letting her know that she needs to stay close to me and come back if I call her. Obviously though this is usually done in a park type setting away from cars.

Anyways so back to the leash thing. I think I prefer the wrist straps to the leashes. I would still hold her hand when I did use the leash and maybe that's why she's good about holding my hand now. I have a super friendly toddler who loves talking to new people and running up to dogs (the dog thing totally freaks me out so we are working on approaching with mommy and asking if she can pet the doggie.) I was the same way as a kid so my mom used a wrist strap with me, but mostly only in very public places like disneyland or something like that.

So bottom line... I think it depends on the kid. My daugther currently is fine with holding my hand so I don't feel the need to use one.


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## HappyBuckeye (Jul 11, 2009)

We haven't ever used one.

I'll be honest, I have a fairly low opinion of them. Or maybe of some of the parents who use them. I don't think I've ever seen one used in a respectful manner. I've seen them used a lot as we go lots and lots of places. I read how some on here have explained how they use them, and I've never seen parents use the care you describe.

For example, over the weekend, we went to the zoo. It was packed. DH was with me. We have a 9.5 month old and an almost 33 month old. I saw a family with twin boys who looked to be about 2 and the mother was practically dragging them up the hill. We saw another family with a little girl with the mother yanking on the cord and the father was pulling on her arm to get her to move faster. That was just this weekend...but we've seen countless other children enduring the same treatment.

Other times, we see people with them on their child, but the child is in the stroller anyways.

Maybe if I saw one used with care, I wouldn't feel so bad for the child wearing it. Because, really, like some have said...it is a case by case judgment. Do all parents who put a harness on their child treat their child like I described? Most likely not.

One of my worries is that I'd develop a sense of false security with it. I see moms at the store with their child on one and they aren't paying attention to the child. They're browsing the racks or talking to a friend. I think even with a harness on a child, you still need to pay attention...but I think, personally, I could fall into the trap of not paying attention because well, he's secure at the end of the harness, right?...but they can break or come undone and the child could get away.

Since having DS2, I've thought on a few occasions "you know, maybe it would be easier with a leash?" but somehow we've adapted. We're fairly "free range" with letting DS1 roam about. I usually have someone with me (a friend who has kids, DH, my mom, etc) if we're somewhere super busy. We live on a pretty busy street and the bus drives past our house about 4 times an hour. We've drilled it in his head he is NOT to go past the sidewalk. But I can't say I'd put him on it at home if I was using one. We take walks and I let him run on the sidewalk. We've learned one way to slow him down is to let him pull his baby brother in the wagon...both boys LOVE that.

The one place I seem to consistently say "I know why parents use these" is at the post office. It's just a disaster waiting to happen. You have all sort of things for them to pull off the counter. You have people in cranky moods because they're waiting in line. At least at our post office there are older people who seem to think very highly of spanking children. I've seen even the most well behaved kid (not mine) get dirty looks from people.

(and not to cause any competition, but as a reference...my DS1 is insanely active. I regularly get comments on how my "hands are full" because he just goes and goes and goes and goes. He's very curious. And my MIL is very pushy about wanting us to use a leash. She admits to being like the parents I mentioned at the beginning of the post. She had 3 boys within 33 months (all singletons) and had the ones that tie around the wrist and would pull the boys because "I was in charge and if they wouldn't listen volunarily, then I would make them go where I wanted them to!"...so maybe that's part of where my dislike comes from.)


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

In a natural environment you wouldn't put a baby on a 4 foot changing table. That would be consitant with the examples I gave of common sense parenting coupled with allowing a child the freedom to learn safety limits.

They do know that fire is hot. Fire gives off heat whether you touch it or not and it doesn't take much of that heat to pull back or know to stay away. Most fire accidents come from carelessness, not confusion about the fact that the fire is hot.
A leading cause of death in Africa for infants is falling into the fire, from mom's backs and from them running in, or running too fast and not being able to stop.

Death is natural.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HappyBuckeye* 
We saw another family with a little girl with the mother yanking on the cord *and the father was pulling on her arm to get her to move faster.*

Based on this, you could just as easily be against touching a child as using a leash. Why does the leash get the bad rep, when it's quite obviously the parent's behaviour that's the issue?


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

the mother was practically dragging them up the hill.
My kids love to be dragged.







I hate it. I beg them to walk (even hand holding with no leash in sight). I tell them I'm walking, if they don't walk, too bad. They will just stay there.

They use the opportunity to run in the opposite direction, to the street.

Or, if I tell them, we're going now, and hold on, they let themselves be dragged.

You'd be amazed what is going through other people's kids heads. Really.

I try not to drag my daughter when she's on the leash. It's hard when she starts giggling and pulling away (like she does with my hand, but I feel a five-point harness is better to drag her with than letting all that weight hang on her wrist and shoulder).

Every time we start out holding hands. And she knows if she lets go and runs, she will get the leash. Sometimes she asks for it right away. Sometimes she ends up in it (she never objects, she puts it on like clothes). Amazingly, though, she still ends up wanting to be dragged from time to time. (ETA- it sounds like "wanting to be dragged" means "not coming". But even my older child will ask, "drag me!" I don't know what is wrong with my family. They just think it's funny. I'd like to refuse, but I suppose that as with many things, we end up with these problems because we face a lot of external constraints. When the baby "wants to be dragged," what she does is, put on the leash and walk away then lean against the weight. If I walk with her, she will try to outrun me and then lean against it. She likes the pull. As soon as she hits that pull, she starts smiling. Yes, my kids are insane.)

And frankly, whatever floats her little boat is fine with me!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HappyBuckeye* 
One of my worries is that I'd develop a sense of false security with it. I see moms at the store with their child on one and they aren't paying attention to the child. They're browsing the racks or talking to a friend. I think even with a harness on a child, you still need to pay attention...but I think, personally, I could fall into the trap of not paying attention because well, he's secure at the end of the harness, right?...but they can break or come undone and the child could get away.

How do you know if they're paying attention? I can be paying attention without actually looking directly at my child. More than once, I was alerted to dd1 getting bored, or wanting to move on, by a slight tug at the harness. I hadn't been ignoring her - just watching the ducks with her or focusing on the baby (the "baby" - he's FIVE now!!) for a second. This is the kind of thing about leashes that gets to me. If a mother were standing holding her child's hand, or had the child in a wrap/Ergo/whatever, and was talking to a friend, nobody would just assume the child was being ignored, but if the child is on a leash/harness, then that's the default.

I really don't get the leash hate.


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## HappyBuckeye (Jul 11, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Based on this, you could just as easily be against touching a child as using a leash. Why does the leash get the bad rep, when it's quite obviously the parent's behaviour that's the issue?

In the beginning of my post I said that perhaps it's the parents... (the parents who misuse them, not all parents who use them).

And from what we saw, the kids were NOT laughing while dragged...both were whining. Granted, when I ask DS1 to follow me and he's not ready to move on he whines too...


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
A leading cause of death in Africa for infants is falling into the fire, from mom's backs and from them running in, or running too fast and not being able to stop.

Death is natural.


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## HappyBuckeye (Jul 11, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
How do you know if they're paying attention? I can be paying attention without actually looking directly at my child. More than once, I was alerted to dd1 getting bored, or wanting to move on, by a slight tug at the harness. I hadn't been ignoring her - just watching the ducks with her or focusing on the baby (the "baby" - he's FIVE now!!) for a second. This is the kind of thing about leashes that gets to me. If a mother were standing holding her child's hand, or had the child in a wrap/Ergo/whatever, and was talking to a friend, nobody would just assume the child was being ignored, but if the child is on a leash/harness, then that's the default.

I really don't get the leash hate.

I don't know. And I said you do still need to pay attention, I'm not saying by default parents ARE NOT paying attention...just that I could easily see how one could develop a sense of false security. It's like those arm floaties when swimming. They aren't a lifesaving device. You still need to watch your child. But not everyone knows that...some parents MAY just blank out or be really into conversation. It can happen when not on a leash too. I took my boys to play in a fountain last week. I let DS1 go play while I set up a place for DS2....in that second I turned my back, DS1 disappeared. I was terrified. But...he wouldn't have been on a leash then if I used them anyways, so our one big scary event wouldn't have been helped by one anyways.

And I don't have a totally negative opinion of them...I just have not seen one used in a caring loving manner. If I saw the moms on here using them the way they're describing, then perhaps I wouldn't cringe (like I was cringing as the twins were being dragged up the hill at the zoo...but I would've been cringing if they didn't have the leash and were being dragged by the arm. Although...there are times DS1 has a tantrum and maybe he looks like I'm torturing him to someone watching)


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HappyBuckeye* 
Since having DS2, I've thought on a few occasions "you know, maybe it would be easier with a leash?" but somehow we've adapted. We're fairly "free range" with letting DS1 roam about. I usually have someone with me (a friend who has kids, DH, my mom, etc) if we're somewhere super busy. We live on a pretty busy street and the bus drives past our house about 4 times an hour. We've drilled it in his head he is NOT to go past the sidewalk. But I can't say I'd put him on it at home if I was using one. We take walks and I let him run on the sidewalk. We've learned one way to slow him down is to let him pull his baby brother in the wagon...both boys LOVE that.

It's great that you have that support but I know I didn't with my son and I still wanted to go places with him.

I do find it a bit funny you're talking about parents perhaps forgetting about safety on the one hand and depending on drills and pulling a wagon with a baby brother as a slow-down measure on a sidewalk near a bus route on the other... not that I object but I would personally find a leash a safer way of slowing the older child down. Also, we used the leash mostly between 18 months and about 2 1/4 - not a time my son could be drilled in staying on the sidewalk.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HappyBuckeye* 
In the beginning of my post I said that perhaps it's the parents... (the parents who misuse them, not all parents who use them).

I guess I'm not getting where "perhaps" even comes into play. The father was dragging his child by the arm, using his _hand_. So...what does a leash have to do with it _at all_?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I do find it a bit funny you're talking about parents perhaps forgetting about safety on the one hand and depending on drills and pulling a wagon with a baby brother as a slow-down measure on a sidewalk near a bus route on the other... not that I object but I would personally find a leash a safer way of slowing the older child down. Also, we used the leash mostly between 18 months and about 2 1/4 - not a time my son could be drilled in staying on the sidewalk.

I wouldn't even consider letting ds2, for instance, pull dd2 in a wagon. He _adores_ her...but he's also not getting the idea that he _has_ to be gentle. He'd probably think she'd love it if he pushed it as hard and fast as he could, then let her go. It gives me a minor chill to even think about it! I tend to keep ds2 away from anything that both contains a smaller child _and_ has wheels. Deadly combo.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HappyBuckeye* 

And from what we saw, the kids were NOT laughing while dragged...both were whining. Granted, when I ask DS1 to follow me and he's not ready to move on he whines too...

Mine whine no matter what (I mean, when they're ready to whine, not all the time), though they hate hand-holding most of all. I let them choose, and their choices, whining or not, are:

DD1: Stroller, carrier, leash, hand.
DD2: Leash, carrier, stroller, hand.

I think their arms get tired holding my hand.


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## HappyBuckeye (Jul 11, 2009)

For someone who is arguing that we shouldn't be judging, your comment about a deadly combo is about as judgmental as it comes. You claim I don't know every single leash user's situation...well you don't know mine.

I said I don't like them. I'm not in the parents' faces telling them that. I feel I've seen them used improperly. Sure, it's not the leash's fault...but the leashes do lend themselves to things like dragging to occur. Some parents (like my MIL) do see them as a way to control their child rather than a method to allow a child to explore.


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## elmh23 (Jul 1, 2004)

She's saying that for HER SON it would be a deadly combo (it would be with mine too.) She's not judging you, just stating that your tactic wouldn't work FOR HER.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HappyBuckeye* 
For someone who is arguing that we shouldn't be judging, your comment about a deadly combo is about as judgmental as it comes. You claim I don't know every single leash user's situation...well you don't know mine.

I said I don't like them. I'm not in the parents' faces telling them that. I feel I've seen them used improperly. Sure, it's not the leash's fault...but the leashes do lend themselves to things like dragging to occur. Some parents (like my MIL) do see them as a way to control their child rather than a method to allow a child to explore.

I've also seen kids being dragged by their upper arms, wrists, hands, shirts....some parents just suck.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

And I repeat... some kids really love playing limp noodle.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood* 
I've also seen kids being dragged by their upper arms, wrists, hands, shirts....some parents just suck.



















And my guess is, parents who drag with a leash will probably still drag without the leash.


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## Magali (Jun 8, 2007)

We bought one recently for our 3 year old because we were visiting waterfalls and I wanted a bit of extra security that he wouldn't run off and fall to his death...not because I had intention of dragging him around anywhere. We also used it at the super crowded zoo. My kid isn't a bolter. He still did his thing and I just followed him around....while attached. I just felt safer that way. I don't parent from some AP checklist. I did it because it felt right in our situation at the time.


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## outlier (Sep 29, 2008)

Thank you everyone for this very thought-provoking thread. I always thought leashes were degrading as well and that "obviously" the parents who used one were just being lazy. It never crossed my mind that leashes give independent toddlers much more freedom than strollers, and are more comfortable than holding hands. Reading what some of you have to put up with makes me want to go up and high-five the next person I see using one (in a responsible manner, of course).

Consider me a convert, and I apologize if any of you have gotten a judge-y look from me in the past!


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## WC_hapamama (Sep 19, 2005)

I never really needed them for my older 3... DS1 and DD were fairly cautious children and were not inclined to run off. DS2 was the sort of kid that would wander off in a store if we let him walk, but he was quite happy in the cart or stroller so it wasn't a big deal.

OTOH, DS3 is fearless. This is a child that has bolted across streets and parking lots if you let go of his hand for more than 5 seconds. He will take off in a store. After the first time he disappeared in a store, I bought him a harness and haven't looked back. He's almost 5, and still needs the harness frequently. I'm told I was very much the same at the same age.


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## Triniity (Jul 15, 2007)

I used one as well, a little frog from goldenb*g I think. I ordered it in the u.s. for an horrendous amount of shipping costs. But it was so worth it! DD hated holding hands when she was around two years, and she had eczema around her wrists, so I guess it might even have been painful for her. When I was pregnant or shortly after birth of ds I was not really very well walking, because of a hip disease.
I was totally happy with the harness. My kids still love the frog, even though we did not use it for more than a year, Dd loves to wear it and hold the leash herself









Before kids I thought this harnesses are ugly and uncomfortable and nearly child abuse, but now I know better







We needed it, otherwise dd would have had to sit in the stroller 24/7


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

We don't use a leash but DS LOVES to walk holding onto straps (i.e. drawstrings from my coat, the straps from the backpack, etc.) so I was thinking of always carrying around a ribbon or something for him to hold onto. It's funny because without holding it he'll walk about 10 feet and say 'up please' but when he's holding onto a strap he will happily walk forever. I think he needs to feel 'connected' to me (but doesn't necessarily want to hold hands for too long) and the straps give him that sense of security. So I can see how some kids might love leashes. It's not for me (DS is generally pretty cautious, and I tried a makeshift leash once & we both hated it, didn't feel right to us) but our alternative is very similar, just not actually attached to him.


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## CrystalCloud (May 14, 2010)

I'm looking for one but this is an example that made me think they were bad @ first. http://www.babble.com.au/2009/08/06/...round/?print=1


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