# I need serious advice!



## knucklehead (Mar 12, 2008)

d


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

First of all, I want to say I can't even imagine how sad/freaked out you are over this, as I would be as well. I think you have handled it very well.

I was told by a therapist one time that studies have shown that it is not sexual abuse/molestation in and of itself that causes long term damage to a person, but rather how it is handled or how they are treated. Children who are not believed, children who are in a situation of being scared to tell, children who are threatened and manipulated for a long time, children who are made to feel ashamed - these are the ones who end up dealing with serious repurcussions. Children who experienced a one time, non violent incident, and were immediately believed and protected by their parents (or adults in charge) go on to have no discernable effects from the situation.

Now, I don't have any personal experience with this, but it made sense to me. As scary as this is for you, it sounds like he will be fine.

My main question is: What is happening in regards to future contact with his cousin? I'm not insinuating that they should never see each other again, although that may be one answer, but how you and your sister feel about it and agree to deal with it, and how it's explained to your son. This kind of stuff can really put a strain on family relationships.


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## lovebug (Nov 2, 2004)

no advice here... i just wanted to give







s!


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## natural_mama89 (May 4, 2007)

I'm so sorry about what happened to your DS. However, I am wondering if possibly something happened to this 11-year-old to make HIM think that that was ok behavior.


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## PhoenixMommaToTwo (Feb 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natural_mama89* 
I'm so sorry about what happened to your DS. However, I am wondering if possibly something happened to this 11-year-old to make HIM think that that was ok behavior.

That was my first thought too. I think some therapy is in order for this little boy. I'm sorry that this happened. And what oceanbaby said makes a lot of sense, honestly. I can't really offer up any other advice. I would, however, make a plan of action with your sister with regards to how you're boys are going to spend time together from now on, if they are. How is your sister treating this??


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## ledzepplon (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *knucklehead* 

Here is where I need advice. My son never acted upset or scared. In fact when he initially described what happened he acted like it was funny. He idolizes his cousin so I'm sure no intimidation was necessary to convince him to participate. My son has always been comfortable with his body and shows no shame, he is only 3 1/2 afterall. He is a completely innocent little boy. I am not sure how much more to talk with him about this.

I plan in a few days to read him an age appropriate book about good touching/bad touching etc. and will encourage him, if he brings anything up, to talk about it. I don't want to turn what may have been (for him) nothing more than experimental play into something scary. By the same token I don't want him to think that it is OK for someone to do this to him or have him think he can now do this to another child. I have to add that he has a little sister. I want to educate him but I don't want him to feel bad either or focus too much on the incident. I would really like to purge his memory but I know I can't. Do you think this could possibly be something that he forgets? What would you do? I am so sad for my little boy. I feel like his innocence was stolen.









Your son _is still innocent._ That's why he wasn't upset or embarrassed.







It must be so heart-wrenching for you, but I hope you can take some comfort in that.

As the pp said, the nephew needs serious help, because this wasn't a peer/mutual experimentation thing. Sadly, there's a good chance he was abused in some way.







I wouldn't have them together again at all.

The way I have approached this subject with my kids is that their bodies are wonderful gifts from God, and they're not ready to be unwrapped yet. That's why it's not okay for others to ask to touch or see our private parts, unless they need help in the bathroom or have an ouchie that they need help with. This metaphor seems to make sense, because they don't really get the notion of privacy yet. (And obviously if you don't believe in God you can just leave that part off and it still holds.)

I'm so, so sorry.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

I hope your nephew gets counseling.


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## aihcalappa (Sep 30, 2007)

I recommend the book "Your Body Belongs to You" by Cornelia Spelman. I read this to my kids. My 2nd DD was 3 1/2 when we purchased this book, and I think it's appropriate for that age-range.
So sorry this has happened, mama.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

I cannot imagine this. What does your sister plan to do about this from her end? I hope that she is as concerned as you are. I don't have any advice, but lots of hugs and prayers.


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## denimtiger (Jan 22, 2009)

*hugs* Mama, I am SO sorry. That is the worst kind of feeling in the world.
Your son will be okay, but he can never play with your nephew again. This already happened with adults in the room.

Your nephew NEEDS for this not to be swept under the rug. If your sister does not take your nephew to counseling and find out what's going on here, I would seriously consider calling CPS. This was not a boy your nephew's age, this was a power situation. Your nephew knew it was wrong, tried to prevent you from discovering, and then blamed his victim. He took time setting up a deliberate situation to give privacy (building the fort), and took risks doing the activity that close to supervising adults. This is serious, and needs to be dealt with seriously.

Last year, I found out about a man I know who is now 30 and is married and has two small boys -- wonderful, easygoing, well-liked, well-trusted, great guy according to everyone's standards. Turns out he'd been hiding urges and activities like this since he was 12. Not good.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

First off it seems to me you handled the situation WONDERFULLY. You let your son know he'd done nothing wrong, you didn't do all the questioning in front of him... it sounds like you did all the right things to not have him be negatively affected by the aftermath of this event.

My advice re: your son is to just do what you're already planning to do. Talk to him about "good touch/bad touch" in an age appropriate way, and really emphasize with him that it's fine for him to touch himself but that it's private and no one - NO ONE else can touch him and he can't touch anyone else on their privates. And while it's totally understandable that you feel your son's "innocence was stolen", as inappropriate as what happened was, it sounds like your son didn't experience any pain or wasn't upset about it and doesn't feel like he did anything wrong, so his innocence is indeed intact. Thanks to you and how you handled this!

But what about your nephew? Did I miss it or did you say how your sister reacted? The fact that your nephew objected to you pulling the covers off and got so upset shows that he KNOWS he was doing something he shouldn't have. Has anyone asked him why he did it, where he learned it or when was the first time anyone touched him there, and how many other kids he's touched? And who touched your nephew, where did he learn this? There's very likely a child molester out there who needs to be identified and stopped.

Because your nephew is 11 and is himself a child, I'd handle his questioning gently too, although if I were you I'd make darn sure he was clear that he'd be in major major MAJOR trouble if he ever touched anyone again - especially my kids. (And then of course I'd never leave my kids alone with him again!). But someone needs to talk to him and find out where he got this stuff from and how many other kids he's touched and who. And WHO is touching your nephew!

What was your sister's reaction?

What do you think your next steps are going to be?


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
I was told by a therapist one time that studies have shown that it is not sexual abuse/molestation in and of itself that causes long term damage to a person, but rather how it is handled or how they are treated. Children who are not believed, children who are in a situation of being scared to tell, children who are threatened and manipulated for a long time, children who are made to feel ashamed - these are the ones who end up dealing with serious repurcussions. Children who experienced a one time, non violent incident, and were immediately believed and protected by their parents (or adults in charge) go on to have no discernable effects from the situation.


Most of what that therapist said is true, but just to be clear a lot of child abuse is actually painful in and of itself. If a child is raped or tortured obviously there is physical pain involved in that abuse and it is awful. And even when a child is not physically pained but is old enough to understand that what is being done to them is wrong, then the abuse itself can be very traumatic there too. And in many cases sexual abuse is accompanied by other kinds of physical abuse and to the child they are not separate incidents, so that is also traumatic for the child.

But sadly, by and large, as if it wasn't awful enough that the abuse itself happens, like the therapist said it is often how the child is treated after that that further traumatizes the child. It's why in a lot of sexual abuse cases children are more angry at their mothers than the known abuser because as awful as the abuser is, they thought their mothers would protect them.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Oh, I'm so sorry!

I'm curious to know how your sister reacted too. I hope she's taking this very seriously and plans to make a fairly big deal of it with her son to make the impression that this cannot happen ever again, with any child.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LROM* 
It's why in a lot of sexual abuse cases children are more angry at their mothers than the known abuser because as awful as the abuser is, they thought their mothers would protect them.

My situation involved my grandparents. I've never been angry at my mom about it (it was her parents). I hated my grandmother's guts until the day she died. I mostly just felt sorry for my grandfather. He had a brain hemorrhage when I was a baby, and from _everything_ I've been able to put together about him, including conversations with him when he was actually making sense, the man he was before the hemorrhage would have been absolutely horrified by the things he did afterwards. However, my abuse wasn't physically painful, which would obviously change my reactions/feelings in certain ways.


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## Beene (May 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *knucklehead* 
I don't want to turn what may have been (for him) nothing more than experimental play into something scary. By the same token I don't want him to think that it is OK for someone to do this to him or have him think he can now do this to another child. I have to add that he has a little sister. I want to educate him but I don't want him to feel bad either or focus too much on the incident. I would really like to purge his memory but I know I can't. Do you think this could possibly be something that he forgets? What would you do? I am so sad for my little boy. I feel like his innocence was stolen.









Well, to me, and many will disagree I am sure, it is just that- experimental play. I think you see this too. I wouldn't go as far as to say your nephew was ABUSING your son, especially if your son seems to be handling it openly and well. This is often how children explore their sexuality, and it seems that is what your nephew was doing. It's just that 3.5 is a little young of an exploration parter, but he may not have even realized this. I remember being about 10 or 11 and playing with a handful of kids in the neighborhood and there was a lot of jokes/experimental touching/general fascination with sex organs that was going on amongst us. I think as long as your nephew's mother explains proper behavior to her son and you explain to your son about privacy, no one will be scarred for life. In fact, I happen to think it is better to not make such a big deal out of it. He will be fine, mama! He probably won't even remember it at all in a couple of months.







You did good.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

I respect your opinion, but there is a MAJOR red flag in her nephew's reaction.

Harmless exploratory play carries no guilt or sense of wrongdoing with it. Her nephew clearly knew he was doing something he shouldn't do.

AND... 11 and 3 1/2 is too large an age difference for "healthy exploration". If this family knew that was going on and child welfare found out about it, a case would absolutely be opened because it is not age appropriate at all in this case.

We all have a right to our opinions (and it seems like we all agree that OP was right not to make it a big deal with her own son) but my opinion continues to be that if no one questions the nephew on who/what/where/when re: his behavior, it's very very possible a child molester is out there that won't get caught because no one said anything.

The newphew's guilt/sense of wrongdoing is not to be ignored.


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## Beene (May 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LROM* 
I respect your opinion, but there is a MAJOR red flag in her nephew's reaction.

Harmless exploratory play carries no guilt or sense of wrongdoing with it. Her nephew clearly knew he was doing something he shouldn't do.

AND... 11 and 3 1/2 is too large an age difference for "healthy exploration".

I completely agree. I think he knew he was doing something wrong, but what is worth exploring is WHY he feels the need to do it. He could be being abused himself OR he could have no outlet for his natural curiosity. Now, with that said, I think the fact that he put his mouth on the OP's son tells me that he has either seen this or experienced it. That's the red flag for me.

I guess what I mean to say is that it seems like the nephew is also a victim here and telling the OP's DS that he is the bad guy and it is the nephews fault may have a negative effect on their relationship. The nephew may be acting something out that he is a victim of. I don't see him as the abuser here.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Your nephew needs to be seen NOW by someone. I would absolutely make it a condition of seeing the child again that he get counseling. This child is not safe to leave around other children right now, and someone needs to get to the bottom of this. A 3 year old and a 5 year old experimenting, oh well. An 11 year old playing 'pee pee kissing' - HUGE red flag for abuse. HUGE.

AND you need someone trained to talk to your son just to make sure he wasn't traumatized (it doesn't sound like it, but you never know). And YOU need help in processing this. I had a relative who was abused by her babysitter, and it was the mom, not the daughter, who needed the most help in getting over it. It was a horrible summer for them when they found out, but it didn't affect the child long term. It was handled well, she saw a counselor a couple of times and her mom for a couple of months. Because her daughter was so young (3 1/2) and it was handled well, it didn't have any lasting effect. She's a happy, confident, lovely young adult now.

If your sister doesn't take steps to get your nephew in to see someone NOW, I would report this to your doctor, who is a mandated reporter. (FWIW, the boy who molested my relative was never removed from his home, but was required to do counseling and community service. So reporting this if the parents aren't doing the right thing doesn't mean that the family will be ripped apart.)


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

I agree with Beene. Your nephew should see a properly trained counselor, but I think the most likely explanation is that he heard something about oral sex and was curious about it and made a VERY INAPPROPRIATE choice about how to explore that curiosity. I was 11 when I first heard of oral sex, and I thought the whole idea was appallingly gross, but it was clear from the way some of my classmates were talking that they were extremely curious. The fact that your nephew did this does not automatically mean he ever did it before or anyone ever did it to him.








I think you handled it very well. I hope everything gets resolved safely and happily for your whole family. While I think that never letting your son play with this cousin ever again is too harsh, I'd say no tents, no playing alone, and no sleeping in the same room until your son is an adult.


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## knucklehead (Mar 12, 2008)

d


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## Slabobbin (Jan 29, 2004)

I wouldn't go that far mama. If you do, know that it will be YOU messing things up in the family, and not your nephew. He needs help, for sure. But you could still do birthdays and holidays and just make sure that they are never alone together. No need to go all out with what you have proposed. And it SERIOUSLY bothers me that you say that "everything they poured into him has been ruined". What a horrible thing to say.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *knucklehead* 
While we all knew my nephew has issues we never expected this. I never let my son be alone with his cousin not because I thought he would get molested but simply because I didn't want him picking up gross habits or bad words (my nephew has a penchant for bathroom humor). I NEVER saw this coming. I feel so guilty because I think I should have known. I always wanted the best for my nephew and always gave him the benefit of the doubt because he had such a crappy beginning. We all wanted him to know we loved him and believed in him. I've known him over 7 years and never thought this was in him. I feel like a fool and that I let my son down.

My sister is beside herself and is making no excuses whatsoever. She herself contacted social services to let them know and is having an emergency meeting with his psychiatrist. She is disgusted by this and crushed. Everything that has been poured into my nephew has been a waste. I feel horrible for my sister. She simultaeously loves him and is so tired and repulsed by him. I don't know what this is going to do to our family. Nothing is ever going to be the same. I never want to look at my nephew again and my children will never be around him. I have no idea how I'm going to explain to my son why he never sees his cousin anymore. He is used to seeing him at least once a week. He still asks for his cat that ran away over a year ago! What do I tell him? I think of holidays, birthdays etc., what the hell do we do now? Everything is ruined. Even if I get my son past the actual act how do I explain everything else? A death would be easier to explain than this. I'm at a loss.

Oh darling, I really hope that in the very near future you see it differently and realize everything is *not* ruined. Not at all.

1st off, you are a fantastic mom. You caught this situation right when it happened because you were being vigilant! That is being a great mom. It would be different if you found out it had been going on for years and you hadn't n oticed the signs, but you caught this right away. That is really impressive.

And your nephew... I understand there's no "history" of sexual abuse, but one of the messed up things that often happens to kids when their parents are on drugs is sexual abuse. It is very very very possible that your nephew was molested when he was very young. Even though he was adopted when he was your son's age, if the abuse was traumatic he would have memory of it and it's not unusual for him to act out now.

That's different from your son, who hopefully/seemingly was NOT traumatized by what happened. He may not remember at all when he's older, because you guys handled it so well.

It's great that your sister is so on top of this, but it breaks my heart - truly breaks my heart - to read that you feel like all those years of investment in your nephew were wasted. Trust me I know from working with abused kids: a healthy, loving family is NEVER EVER a waste of time for that child. However bad things get... just keep in mind they could be a million times WORSE if he hadn't been in a good home like your sister's. I hope you and your sister come to appreciate that even with this upsetting incident, your nephew has still made incredible progress and he's living testament that a good home can really save a child. The fact that he did this - he's a child himself. While you need to protect your son and not leave him alone with your nephew, your nephew is hardly beyond hope. It's amazing that he's made the progress he's made over the years. That poor child was destined for an awful life, and now even though he's still got his awkward character and he's acting out inappropriately, he's still doing so so much better than he would have been.

Great that your sister is taking him to a psychiatrist & notified his caseworker.

Maybe to alleviate some of your worry, you might take your son to a counselor too. In my humble opinion I think you're overreacting to "never" let your son see his cousin again, especially if he really likes his cousin. I think in totally supervised situations your son could still be allowed to see his cousin since your son doesn't seem to feel negatively about him & you think it will upset him not to see him. But that's just my opinion.

I'm just so sad you feel like everything's ruined, you don't want to look at your nephew ever again and your kids will never see him. Those are totally understandable and natural feelings. But it also seems a little extreme... maybe with a little time it won't seem like you have to keep your whole family away from him? And maybe talk to a counselor yourself about how you feel like a bad mom, since you seem to actually be a fantastic mom and you successfully protected your son from further harm?


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

I know this is a terrible thing to have to deal with, and I can only imagine the emotions that you're going through.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *knucklehead* 
I don't know what this is going to do to our family. Nothing is ever going to be the same. I never want to look at my nephew again and my children will never be around him. I have no idea how I'm going to explain to my son why he never sees his cousin anymore. He is used to seeing him at least once a week. He still asks for his cat that ran away over a year ago! What do I tell him? I think of holidays, birthdays etc., what the hell do we do now? Everything is ruined. Even if I get my son past the actual act how do I explain everything else? A death would be easier to explain than this. I'm at a loss.

This is why I suggest that YOU also seek out a counselor. I haven't a clue as to how to handle the family things. The good news is that you don't have to explain everything to your son right away. You've got time to find a counselor for YOU (since your sister is connected to the agencies in town, maybe her son's psychiatrist can recommend someone for you too).

If your son asks, for a couple of weeks, you can say "we're busy" and/or "your cousin needs to go to the doctor, and the doctor needs figures out how to help him." True, but not too detailed. After you've been with a counselor, you and your sister can work out a plan that will keep everyone safe. I think that you and your sister might want to have a few sessions together to work this out.

Just remember that you don't know what happened to your nephew in his early years. He's not a lost cause. He is going to require the patience of Job and a heck of a lot of supervision (past an age where most kids can be trusted). But he's only 11. I know 11 seems really old when your baby is 3. But in the grand scheme of things, it's young. And for your nephew he's probably younger than his age in terms of judgment and impulse control.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:

Everything that has been poured into my nephew has been a waste.
Your sisters dedication and love will be a waste if you all give up on him now.


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## knucklehead (Mar 12, 2008)

d


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## knucklehead (Mar 12, 2008)

d


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## goodygumdrops (Jan 25, 2007)

I have been following this thread and I will try to be very sensitive in my response. I cannot imagine being in your shoes. I am sure that you are very upset and heartbroken. I do think it might be a good idea for you to seek counseling about this situation. It might help you work through your feelings without doing permanent damage to your familial relationships.

While I understand your need to protect your son, I feel that you need to open your eyes and see that your nephew is also a child. A child that may have been horribly abused for all you know and who right now needs the strength and love of his family to help him learn better ways of expressing these experiences. You keep saying that your sons innocence was stolen but what about your nephew? I mean you are there for your child and are able to help him to process this experience and he will probably not even be affected by it. I understand that an 11 year old can seem quite mature but ultimately they are still children.

I wish you peace.


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## katiesk (Nov 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *knucklehead* 
Thank you for your compassion, it is appreciated. I understand what you are saying, it is just so fresh and raw. I truly am having a hard time ever imagining wanting to look at my nephew again. Wrong or right these are my honest feelings. This was my baby for God's sake.

your feelings are your feelings. right or wrong. you're allowed to feel however you feel.

it might be really beneficial though for you to see a counselor - to get some help in supporting your son through this, and also having some support for yourself. maybe in time you will be able to see a way to have this part of your family back in your life, but it is very understandable that it is far too much for right now. give yourself time. make sure you have support. good job and good luck!


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## Beene (May 19, 2009)

I think you're too hard on yourself and on your nephew. There is no reason that with proper attention, love, and supervision that the two children can't have a relationship. I think it would actually be more traumatic to both to be torn apart. I mean, the nephew is going to feel like a bad kid and will see this as a harsh punishment and your son will also see your nephew as the ultimate evil nd bad guy. That's just too much for kids to understand I think. Go easy.


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## shanniesue2 (Jul 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *knucklehead* 
Thank you for your compassion, it is appreciated. I understand what you are saying, it is just so fresh and raw. I truly am having a hard time ever imagining wanting to look at my nephew again. Wrong or right these are my honest feelings. This was my baby for God's sake.

You know what? It's okay to feel the way you do. You love your little boy very much and you don't ever want anything bad to happen to him. He is very lucky to have such a wonderful mama. And I'm sure that it makes the hurt that much worse for you that it was someone you love. That's a very intense thing to deal with. And it sounds like your sister is dealing with a lot of intense emotions surrounding this whole incident.

I think for the time being, it's okay if you don't want to imagine being around your nephew again. You don't have to. But that also doesn't mean that you need to make any definite decisions about whether or not you'll ever see him again for the rest of your life. So don't worry about that right now. Right now, just do what you need to do to make it through this. I think definitely talking with a counselor. Healing takes time and sometimes a little help. Once you can get started on that road and feel like you're in a better position, then you can think about whether or not to see your nephew. But for now, try not to write him off completely. Just turn your focus on your son and the healing that needs to take place for you. One step at a time.

hugs and peace to you


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## mummyofan (Jun 25, 2008)

Slabobbin, I think that was so inappropriate.
Knucklehead, I am so moved by this whole thread, I don't know what to say other that you have all I think managed this amazingly well. I think no one should judge who has not had a similar experience, and the only thing I have to say more is that I used to help assess children in certain areas and work with the families involved and I just want to pass on hugs. that's all.
I feel foryou and your family so much. Keep trying, it WILL work out and you'll all do the best there is because you're all comitted. Simple as that.
All the best.....


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## smeisnotapirate (Aug 24, 2007)

What a terrible situation for everyone involved.

I agree that for now, maybe you should stay away from your nephew, but I also agree that as long as your sister is getting him help, he's on the right track and reconciliation is possible. This boy needs a family right now, and needs to see that families don't drop people for making mistakes. Remember - we're projecting our adult views onto this situation between children. It sounds like your son is ok and your nephew is upset about it and being treated by someone who can help him.








I hope time can heal your wounds, mama. Please talk to a professional about this - you deserve that much for yourself.


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## VeganMamaRed (Jun 7, 2007)

I couldn't read this thread and not say something. I just wanted to give hugs to you, mama, what a horrible and stressful situation! I think for right now, while it is so fresh, you are 100% entitled to feel any emotions/thoughts that you are feeling. Of course you don't want to even think about seeing your nephew again, it just happened and your mama bear instinct is to protect your child. I just wouldn't say anything to your son about never seeing him again, as you may find that when the emotions aren't so fresh you will be more open to 100% supervised visits. Or you might not. Either way, right now I would just focus on your son and keeping things light for him. Make sure you shower him with lots of affection so he doesn't see your stress and misinterpret it for anger at him, as kids always seem to pick up on stress. Get through each day and let tomorrow happen when it happens.

Kudos to your sister for handling it straight away, a lot of people wouldn't be willing to see it in their own child.

As moms it is super hard not to blame ourselves when any little thing goes wrong with our kids, but I'll bet that every mom on this board would have looked at their 3 year old child and 11 year old nephew building a fort out of blankets and thought, "Isn't that cute!", rather than automatically being suspicious. I think you should try really hard to let that guilt go, you are blameless in this situation and advocated for your son right away.

Hugs and peace to you.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

I'll be perfectly honest - I would not potentially sacrifice my child's well being for another child's. I just would not. I can accept that the nephew has had a hard life and is probably acting out something that has happened to him and that he's not "evil" and that he's probably a victim, I can even be compassionate (although if it had been my three year old then maybe not) but I can very much see how the OP would decide that having the two of them together was just not worth the chance of what might happen. This incident was in a room full of people. And this was not exploration between peers, which is a whole other thing.

I would protect MY child first, ESPECIALLY as the nephew seems to have a mom who is on top of the situation and really looking into his best interest. Some day WAY down the line when I felt my child was not quite so vulnerable, we might consider having them together again. Supervised.

My child is my priority and I am her primary protector.

OP, I'm so sorry this has happened in your family. For everyone.


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## babydanielsmom (Jan 18, 2008)

Yes,







: exactly. Praying for peace for you & your family.


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## SimonMom (May 19, 2004)

I cannot believe so many people sound like they're condoning what happened! I'm with you OP, my son would never be around his abuser again either. You can look at it any way you want but there is an 8 year age difference and your nephew knew it was wrong. He did abuse your son! It seems like pp are trying to make it less than it is. It makes me completely sick to my stomach to even think of someone doing that to my 3 year old son. Even if he doesn't seem affected by it right now, he very well might remember it when he's older. Then what about when he's older and remembers it and then wonders why you still hang around your nephew?

The thought of anyone putting their mouth on my sons penis makes extremely upset and greatly disturbed. Honestly, even if it was a 5 year old, because IMO even a child of that age knows better, but at 11 year?!?!















OP I'm glad your son doesn't seem traumitized. I really feel for you.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

Quote:

I cannot believe so many people sound like they're condoning what happened!
I don't think it's that at all. I would bet that in reality, there are just a lot of people with more perspective on at-risk children or even just older children.

Mine is only 3.5 and while I can kind of intellectually get that other people may have a different perspective on this due to having older kids or experience with at-risk kids, it's still hard for me to see much beyond "protect the three year old" especially since the older child seems to have a good support system and someone working on his end. I think the OP is free and clear to just protect and deal with her child and trust that the nephew's parents are taking care of him.

Oh, it's just so hard all around. It makes me feel pukey to think about it.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

OP, I'm glad your sister is so on top of things. I hope your family finds peace one day.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *knucklehead* 
She is disgusted by this and crushed. Everything that has been poured into my nephew has been a waste. I feel horrible for my sister. She simultaeously loves him and is so tired and repulsed by him.

I'm so sorry for your situation and feel badly for all involved, especially your sister. I really don't think everything is ruined or that what she's put into her son is a waste. He is not beyond hope, he can still grow up to be a decent person who is not a sexual offender. I know you are all reeling right now, but I hope that your sister can get some help for her family.


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## Beene (May 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SimonMom* 
I cannot believe so many people sound like they're condoning what happened! Honestly, even if it was a 5 year old, because IMO even a child of that age knows better, but at 11 year?!?!

But see, you are misinterpreting people. No one is condoning what happened at all. What happened was NOT ok and no one said it was. The people saying perspective is necessary are saying this because, yes, while the boy is 11, he is a product of the flawed foster care system and has likely been abused himself. So, 11 and should know better does not apply to him because he is NOT a normal child. He is sick and abused himself. He needs love and patience to heal too. He is just a child, not a monster!

From the OP's son's perspective, he was playing a game with his cousin and friend, NOT an abuser. He, so far, does not seem to be showing any signs of trauma. So, why make the nephew out into the ABUSER, the BAD GUY, the guy whose FAULT it is? Why punish them BOTH by annihilating their friendship?It doesn't make any sense to make such a huge production out of something that needs attention from a counselor and supervision and vigilance from adults. In my opinion the drama would affect the children more than the original incident.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

Quote:

Why punish them BOTH by annihilating their friendship?
I think this is the thinking I can't really get around. While I understand the older child is not a monster, that doesn't mean that the younger child (and other younger children) shouldn't be protected from him. From what I understand, kids who act out like this don't usually just do it one time. I hope I am wrong on that but everything I've read in the past and everything I've seen here and discussed with other parents leads me to believe that this kind of acting out takes a lot of intense work to overcome. I wouldn't be able to potentially put my child in harm's way just because the other child doesn't MEAN to do any harm. It's still harmful, especially if it continues, especially if the younger child grows up and says hey, you knew this had happened in full view of everyone - why didn't you stop it from happening again?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I really want to support the OP and her decision to keep these kids apart. I don't think she she should be made to feel guilty or think she should not follow her gut so that the OTHER child won't feel bad. It's her child she has to worry about, especially as she knows the other child has a good support system.

And any decisions about keeping distance between these kids can be revisted again later. This has JUST happened. I think if it were my three year old, I'd feel pretty raw and hurt and angry about the whole thing. I'd have a lot of feelings that probably wouldn't be very nice or PC and she is entitled to have those feelings as well. It's not like she's tracking the older kid down and telling HIM all this, that would be crossing a line. But telling other adults in a safe environment about how she feels should be allowed.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Both children are victims in this situation but the nephew is the only one that is hurt. To think that a little boy is a waste of love is just awful to me. I hope that the family can get him some compassionate help and avoid shaming him. I also disagree that by hiding it he was not exploring. Of course it was completely inappropriate and he needs to understand it was wrong but most kids know that adults don't approve of that kind of behavior. How many children play "doctor" in the living room. It sounds like the nephew is emotionally and socially immature and doesn't have anyone else who would be a likely candidate for this experimentation. He was wrong but he isn't automatically an abuser.


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## denimtiger (Jan 22, 2009)

I get that kids who are abused need protection and love and support and healing. I believe that. They are victims, and that is NOT their fault. I will never get how that somehow transfers into leeway into victimizing ANOTHER child's innocence.

He's not a NORMAL 11-year-old, so the mother of the child he molested (and, yes, that is what he did), should still be expected to rally around him and preserve the relationship between the boys? No.

If it were my nephew, I would hope for the best for him, but protect my child. Eleven knows that three is a baby. Eleven suspects that he can use coercion to keep three quiet. Heck, eleven isn't sure three is old enough to tell, or be believed if they do tell.

My niece and nephew are seven, my other nephew and dd are two. The older ones are solidly certain that the littles are not peers, out of their own judgement and memory.

I have SEEN how bigger kids manipulate little kids, and how littles worship the big ones.

I am sorry, but you don't persevere in a dangerous relationship at the cost of another child. It's horrible that one child was so terribly damaged. Awful. I do hope his future is brighter than this incident suggests. But you do.not. use a full stroller to push another child out of the way of an oncoming bus.

I don't know what kind of future healthy relationship anyone thinks these boys could have. They're eight years apart. I wouldn't want my three year old idolizing someone who has done this to him, and now has anger over getting caught and in trouble. The nephew has ALREADY tried to blame the little boy for the incident. As other posters have so patiently explained, the eleven year old is not normal... plenty of the boy's anger is going to be directed at his little cousin who got him caught.

OP, *hugs*. I can't even imagine what you are going through. I totally understand everything you have written. Hopefully all of the energy and love your sister has poured and will pour into this child will not be for naught, and he will be okay. But there's no reason to feel guilty for not chucking your child's mental and physical safety into that particular slot machine.


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## Beene (May 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PoppyMama* 
Both children are victims in this situation but the nephew is the only one that is hurt. To think that a little boy is a waste of love is just awful to me. I hope that the family can get him some compassionate help and avoid shaming him. I also disagree that by hiding it he was not exploring. Of course it was completely inappropriate and he needs to understand it was wrong but most kids know that adults don't approve of that kind of behavior. How many children play "doctor" in the living room. It sounds like the nephew is emotionally and socially immature and doesn't have anyone else who would be a likely candidate for this experimentation. He was wrong but he isn't automatically an abuser.

I agree. The nephew has the serious damage, not the OP's son and he needs unconditional love (that is what families are for!). If this was a bilogical child with developmental problems, would you be so quick to give up on him? And yes, I would STILL celebrate his birthday and not shame him or punish him. It is honestly NOT that huge of a mistake that "all is lost" or your sister's efforts were for "nothing". Your son is FINE and he won't eve remember what happened. It makes me sad that you are giving up on your nephew It seems like his childhood has likely been filled with people giving up on him. I didn't say stick the two kids in a fort together again. Out in the open, with adults, I don't see how anything can go wrong again.


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## DaughterOfKali (Jul 15, 2007)

I hope both kids get the help they need.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Beene* 
I agree. The nephew has the serious damage, not the OP's son and he needs unconditional love (that is what families are for!). If this was a bilogical child with developmental problems, would you be so quick to give up on him? And yes, I would STILL celebrate his birthday and not shame him or punish him. It is honestly NOT that huge of a mistake that "all is lost" or your sister's efforts were for "nothing". Your son is FINE and he won't eve remember what happened. It makes me sad that you are giving up on your nephew It seems like his childhood has likely been filled with people giving up on him. I didn't say stick the two kids in a fort together again. Out in the open, with adults, I don't see how anything can go wrong again.

I'm not sure that just because the three year old might not remember it years from now, his memory of it NOW shoudn't count. And there are so many stories here of people who were abused and how they felt when their parents didn't keep them away from their abusers. I know it's hard to think of an 11 year old with a difficult past as an "abuser" but from the POV of the younger child, that is the situation. This is not a couple of three year olds, this is a HUGE age gap. And the 11 year old is pretty bold.

And then there are the feelings of the three year old's mother. HER feelings shouldn't be discounted either. Could you really find your three year old baby in this situation and just set aside your feelings for your child and happily go forward having a relationship with the older child and fostering a relationship between the two kids?


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## Beene (May 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NiteNicole* 
Could you really find your three year old baby in this situation and just set aside your feelings for your child and happily go forward having a relationship with the older child and fostering a relationship between the two kids?

I wouldn't set aside my or my child's feelings, but would consider my nephew's as well, for he is family also. I think it is extreme to say that he has been improving and working hard and doing well with homeschooling and behaviorally and then after a setback just say that all was for nothing. I don't think anyone can expect an abused child to just change overnight and be totally fine. t takes years and lifetimes of therapy and proper support. I think expectations for the (very young still!) nephew are unrealistic here. I didn't say foster a relationship between the two. Take the time to heal, both mama and baby, and then only have them together in the same room out in the open with adults. I think the 3 year old would benefit most from some help dealing with this incident and then a return to normalcy. He is likely not as scarred by this as his mama. He will only believe his cousin is an abuser if he is told that, or of course, if the behavior continues. I stick by my opinion that a sudden change in his relationship with the nephew will make the whole thing ten times more traumatic. For both CHILDREN.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

I see two separate issues here....

Issue #1: The love, safety and well being of the 3 year old. OP, I think you are handling this very very well. I think that keeping them separate from each other is the only thing which makes sense, considering how highly inapropriate this incident was...I think, mama, that your son really is going to be okay. For HIS age, this is really normal play (maybe beside the specific nature of it, I think a three year old is more likely t be interested in "touching pee pee" than "kissing pee pee") and TBH, if I came across two three year olds engaged in silly "pee pee play" I would redirect their play, but I wouldn't freak about it. So, what I'm getting at, is that from YOUR childs standpoint, this probably felt really normal and silly and not at all scary and it will probably become a mere vague memory and over time, slip away into his vault of forgotten childhood play. So...I know this must suck so badly for you...but I think your dear son will be okay, I really don't think he'll even remember it...









Issue #2: The love safety and well being of your nephew.

*sigh*

He is a child. What he did was so wrong on so many levels and for so many different reasons and I realize that for that reason it must be so hurtful...you love this boy and trusted him, you've watched him steadily improve over the years of patient and loving care and dedicated parenting from your sister and BIL....and now this. It must seem like a really huge step back. But remember where he comes from. He has a terrible background. I have three adopted family members who were born addicted to crack and while, after many many years of dedicated, loving parenting at the hands of two adults very skilled with high/special needs parenting...these kids are doing great, they will never be "normal" people. They struggle with urges and social ackwardness which will never be over for them, can never be "taught" or "loved" away. They are different. From a chemical level...they are different.

What my grandparents went through with these kids...it's just, unimaginable. At one point, when he was around 10/11, the boy (my uncle) actually burned down the family home...just had an irresistable urge to play with and be around fire...and it cost them their home and everything in it. This DEVASTATED my family....it was so hard...but this is your kid. You grieve, you process, you move on. What else can you do?

Children are highly sensitive and reactive to "YOU messages". I would highly caution your sister against sending the message to him: "YOU are a monster, YOU are a waste, YOU are an extreme disappointment". Again, OP, I think that you have to handle him differently, because you have your own youngling to protect, your obligation is to your son. But your sisters obligation has to be to HER son....I know she wouldnt outright say to his face "YOU are a monster and we hate you" - but a "you message" doesn't have to be a directly spoken statement. It can be in way they change toward him, the level of commitment they show him....and I'm just afraid, that if he is really trying to graple (at his young age) with intense urges and overwhelming thoughts that he knows are wrong....I just worry that sending te message to him that he is wrong, ugly, monsterous, could cause those statements to manifest into truths in his life.

He did something wrong....but HE is not wrong. HE is a kid who is really messed up inside and he needs a lot of help. Everything your sister has done for him is NOT a waste, he is just entering into a more difficult phase of life...he is hitting puberty...that is hard for kids without the problems he has...but for a kid who DOES have his sort of issues, I'm telling you...I wouldn't wish that pain and ackwardness on anyone....that is so much to come through.

He already feels different, he is old enough now to see that people think he is odd and that they dislike him and he can tell now, that your sister is beyond devasted and beyond angry....all I ask is that you guys separate the issues...I know that's hard, but you have to do it, because there are TWO little boys here who need love, caring and compassion here....

Your son is going to be okay. He didn't do anything wrong and I really would anticipate, judging his reaction, that he will forget about it completely, as a lot of kids forget about those first exploratory experiences. It's your nephew who, in this situation, is at real danger for heading down a path in his life that not many people come back from. In order to keep him from that, his parents will have to keep him connected, to prevent him from turning deeper into himself out of shame and confusion...if he turns into himself and starts living inside his head, which sounds to be a confusing and maybe harmful place right now....you may not be able to reach him again on an emotional level.

SHame is not good for the victim...but in this case, your nephew is also a victim of sorts...and he stands to lose even more than you could imagine if he is shamed, hated and emotionally cut off by family members.

My advice to you....love your kid, which you are obviously doing.

My advice to your sister...seek help. She cant go through this without a strong guidance from someone who can help her process.....she needs to love her kid too, she can't give up on him. He was born ot a mother who didn't care...the whole world could've given up on him...but look....it didn't....and your sister came, like an angel from the heavens, to scoop him up and show him a real life....he's got a shot at being something great, at giving and recieving a kind of love even his own mother couldn't give him....please, don't you all give up on this boy. He's just a little boy. 11, yes....but in his heart and mind, based upon what I know of children with these types of backgrounds...he is probably not really even an 11 year old. He is a messed up person inside and he deserves the continued love and support of the family who promised to always give him that, when they took him in, angry and confused and "damaged" as he was.

GL to you all...I wish you so much peace and I'm sorry this has happened....you are doing such a great job mama...honestly, you really sound like you're keeping it together with your kiddo and I commend you for it...


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## GoestoShow (Jul 15, 2009)

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## Frumpy (Jun 14, 2006)

This is a terrible, and confusing situation all the way around. I feel very sorry that happened to your son, and I would be hurt and angry too.

But, I also feel very badly for the nephew. Of course, what he did was wrong. But I think it would be terrible if the adults that he trusts and loves most in his life just "gave up" on him and treated him like a monster because he made a mistake. I can't even imagine how that would make this 11 year old boy feel, and what deep-seeded damage it may cause. Especially considering his history. He is still a child, and needs unconditional love (--obviously with strong guidance of course). I not saying that the OP needs to be close to the 11 year old, but his guardians certianly should be.

It is possible that this was not a product of abuse, but something more simple and common. Since this boy doesn't have any other friends, especialy none his age, he might have just been exploring. Yes, he knew that he was being bad, but I doubt he had any concept of how serious his mistake was. Kids hear about sex all over the place - and it is not always possible to keep things from them. If I were his guardian, I might just ask him very plainly where he heard about "pee-pee kissing" and where he got that idea.

I think if it were my family, I would see how counseling plays out for the nephew. Maybe in time, I would allow the boys to play together CLOSELY SUPERVISED during holidays and family get togethers. In the end, it might be more important for the OP's son to not make this a lasting wound.


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## Beene (May 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
But your sisters obligation has to be to HER son....I know she wouldnt outright say to his face "YOU are a monster and we hate you" - but a "you message" doesn't have to be a directly spoken statement. It can be in way they change toward him, the level of commitment they show him....and I'm just afraid, that if he is really trying to graple (at his young age) with intense urges and overwhelming thoughts that he knows are wrong....I just worry that sending te message to him that he is wrong, ugly, monsterous, could cause those statements to manifest into truths in his life.

He did something wrong....but HE is not wrong. HE is a kid who is really messed up inside and he needs a lot of help. Everything your sister has done for him is NOT a waste, he is just entering into a more difficult phase of life...he is hitting puberty...that is hard for kids without the problems he has...but for a kid who DOES have his sort of issues, I'm telling you...I wouldn't wish that pain and ackwardness on anyone....that is so much to come through.

He already feels different, he is old enough now to see that people think he is odd and that they dislike him and he can tell now, that your sister is beyond devasted and beyond angry....all I ask is that you guys separate the issues...I know that's hard, but you have to do it, because there are TWO little boys here who need love, caring and compassion here....

Your son is going to be okay. He didn't do anything wrong and I really would anticipate, judging his reaction, that he will forget about it completely, as a lot of kids forget about those first exploratory experiences. It's your nephew who, in this situation, is at real danger for heading down a path in his life that not many people come back from.

This is so beautifully said! EXACTLY all this.


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## Jackpackbaby (Oct 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shanniesue2* 
You know what? It's okay to feel the way you do. You love your little boy very much and you don't ever want anything bad to happen to him. He is very lucky to have such a wonderful mama. And I'm sure that it makes the hurt that much worse for you that it was someone you love. That's a very intense thing to deal with. And it sounds like your sister is dealing with a lot of intense emotions surrounding this whole incident.

I think for the time being, it's okay if you don't want to imagine being around your nephew again. You don't have to. But that also doesn't mean that you need to make any definite decisions about whether or not you'll ever see him again for the rest of your life. So don't worry about that right now. Right now, just do what you need to do to make it through this. I think definitely talking with a counselor. Healing takes time and sometimes a little help. Once you can get started on that road and feel like you're in a better position, then you can think about whether or not to see your nephew. But for now, try not to write him off completely. Just turn your focus on your son and the healing that needs to take place for you. One step at a time.

hugs and peace to you


Very well said. Healing can take a LONG time and while I don't think the kids should ever be alone again, I think you should not cut them out of your life entirely yet. Give yourself some time. Maybe try going out and finding some new friends for your son? Some his age or a tad older to maybe "get his mind off" his cousin. He mayn't foget his cousin but he probably will forget the incident. Thankfully, children his age are very resillient. I think your sister is doing absolutely the right thing. In many cases there is denial and anger and it is good that she is taking this head-on and dealing with his problems. It is very important that you don't blame yourself. YOU did nothing wrong at all. I know a mother's guilt can be very powerful but there was nothing you could have done to prevent this really. They were in the same room as you and you were already proactive about the situation beforehand. You can't get mired in guilt or anger. You need to be strong for your son's sake. Hugs mama. You are in a lot of people's thoughts here.


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## GoestoShow (Jul 15, 2009)

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## SimonMom (May 19, 2004)

This is not "normal" nor was it simply a "mistake" like some pp's said. It's bigger than that. Someone said that if it was same age peers it would be seen as normal. Oh H--- no. You show me yours and I'll show you mine is normal. Any child having their MOUTH on my son's PENIS is not normal and certainly goes beyond a "mistake" when there is an 8 year age difference!


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NiteNicole* 
I think this is the thinking I can't really get around. While I understand the older child is not a monster, that doesn't mean that the younger child (and other younger children) shouldn't be protected from him. From what I understand, kids who act out like this don't usually just do it one time. I hope I am wrong on that but everything I've read in the past and everything I've seen here and discussed with other parents leads me to believe that this kind of acting out takes a lot of intense work to overcome. I wouldn't be able to potentially put my child in harm's way just because the other child doesn't MEAN to do any harm. It's still harmful, especially if it continues, especially if the younger child grows up and says hey, you knew this had happened in full view of everyone - why didn't you stop it from happening again?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I really want to support the OP and her decision to keep these kids apart. I don't think she she should be made to feel guilty or think she should not follow her gut so that the OTHER child won't feel bad. It's her child she has to worry about, especially as she knows the other child has a good support system.

And any decisions about keeping distance between these kids can be revisted again later. This has JUST happened. I think if it were my three year old, I'd feel pretty raw and hurt and angry about the whole thing. I'd have a lot of feelings that probably wouldn't be very nice or PC and she is entitled to have those feelings as well. It's not like she's tracking the older kid down and telling HIM all this, that would be crossing a line. But telling other adults in a safe environment about how she feels should be allowed.

I really respect everyone's right to their own opinions, but there are some statements here that are simply inaccurate as to what others in this thread have said. I hope the OP understands that NO ONE... not one single person in this thread... has said that she shouldn't protect her son or that her nephew's needs is more important than her son's. No one here thinks that from what they've written.

Where there is a bit of division in opinions is about:

1) what it means to protect her son moving forward

2) question of how her nephew should be regarded

From the posts everyone here understands that this is an unimaginable situation and that OP is understandably having a hard time with it. But we all are mothers here and we have to also understand that when things get really complicated like this, and feelings are complicated, when we speak from the heart it triggers lots of emotions in others as well. That's part of being on a message board - you're gonna get lots of opinions!

So when OP says "all her sister's love and attention on her nephew were wasted", that sets off some BIG feelings in many. And they said so, which is just as legitimate a part of this dialogue as those of you who feel OP is right to keep her son from her nephew forever. It's all opinions.

But no one ever lost track of the OP having every single right in the world to feel as she does, and NO ONE here is suggesting that her nephew's issues are more important or take precedent over the safety of her son.

Many of us are just suggesting that 1) if her son doesn't seem upset by what happened and isn't aware that it's considered wrong, he is likely not to be negatively affected by the incident itself. And 2) if her son will be very upset to not see his nephew, maybe after giving some time and attention to her own feelings about all this (seeing a counselor for you OP is a great idea considering how difficult this situation understandably is), maybe she will consider that with the right supervision she doesn't have to keep them apart.

That's about her son's feelings, not about what's best for the nephew.

There are many here as well who are greatly concerned about the nephew since he is a child himself who has been through a lot already. I'm one of those people who agree with other posters that hopefully his mom (OPs sister) will NOT give up on him, as upsetting as all this is. This is exactly the kind of situation where, in order for the nephew to function as a productive member of society and not turn into an alienated, violent, abusive person, he needs to know he's still got his family and still loved even if he clearly needs some expert attention and needs to understand he's done something very very wrong.

But be very very clear: if this was my son who the nephew molested, my nephew would never ever be alone with my son again until my son was an adult. Period, end of story. So this isn't about protecing the nephew's needs over OP's son, not at all. It's just that this involves 2 children and while OP *must* protect her son, many of us just hope that with time and healing, she may be able to look at her nephew again, maybe even love her nephew again, while still keeping her son totally safe.


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## baglady (Jul 13, 2009)

This hits so close to home, I am crying for you. It is not your job to consider your nephews feelings in this situation. That is your sister's job, and it sounds like she's doing a good one. Protect your little boy.

This might sound harsh, but it comes from personal experience. Whether or not your nephew understands what he is doing, he is still putting your son in a situation he should never be in. He's 11 and just a child, but he is abusing your son. I so wish my mother saw what was going on with me and the older kid and kept me away from the person. If she had, I know the many problems with sex that dominated my teenage years and early twenties would not have happened.

Two 11 year olds experiment mutually, 11 and 3 1/2 is abuse. Follow your gut and protect that innocent baby.


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## denimtiger (Jan 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SimonMom* 
This is not "normal" nor was it simply a "mistake" like some pp's said. It's bigger than that. Someone said that if it was same age peers it would be seen as normal. Oh H--- no. You show me yours and I'll show you mine is normal. Any child having their MOUTH on my son's PENIS is not normal and certainly goes beyond a "mistake" when there is an 8 year age difference!


Yes, this. I'm sorry, but justifying this by calling it a mistake or normal or "experimentation" on a THREE YEAR OLD is beyond inappropriate. It is NOT okay. I'm pretty sure that couching something like this in those kind of terms is HOW abuse in families gets "overlooked" for years.

Two six-year-olds explore, yes but not with their mouths. Really, though, even two eleven year olds are old enough to be sliding into much more dangerous territory -- even WITHOUT oral contact. Twelve-year-old girls becoming pregnant is not exactly unheard of. But an eleven-year-old and a THREE year old? That is not okay.

I cannot even imagine how I would feel if I found out that my older cousin did something like that to me when I was three years old, and my mom took sympathy on him, and tried not to make him feel bad, and supported his "mistake" and kept us involved in a relationship.

I'm not saying to emotionally or physically beat up the nephew. In fact, I think that discussing things with him at all should be left up to his parents and counselors. But spending quality family time together with him and my violated child? No.


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

^Yeah that. He had to learn it from somewhere. I don't think this thought should just come naturally to an 11 year old.

There has been a lot of sexual abuse in both my family and DH's. On DH's side it was all older kids (bunch of different evnts/offenders). In all the cases, it was hushed up by some threat or other, and DH and BIL have had a very hard time dealing with it because they did not have supportive guidance and professional help at an early age. Your son is very lucky to have such a caring mom who is going to do the best to help him through this.

And your feelings toward the nephew are totally valid. I really don't think I would let my son see him again either. And all those who are saying to be compassionate towards your nephew - I think the most compassionate thing for him (at least while he's in recovery) is to have complete space from a vulnerable boy who represents a temptation to repeat.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SimonMom* 
This is not "normal" nor was it simply a "mistake" like some pp's said. It's bigger than that. Someone said that if it was same age peers it would be seen as normal. Oh H--- no. You show me yours and I'll show you mine is normal. Any child having their MOUTH on my son's PENIS is not normal and certainly goes beyond a "mistake" when there is an 8 year age difference!

OKay....

No one is saying this is normal....some PPs, myself included, have stated that exploratory play is normal for her sons age and that, for that reason, it probably will feel like that is all it was to her DS and that he probably, so long as the OP continues to handle it correctly, will not be negatively effected by the incident or even remember it after a while.

The pp's saying that exploratory play is normal for a three year old were not saying that WHAT HAPPENED was normal...what happened was highly abnormal and not okay, but only because there was a specific sex act (oral sex) acted out and because it was between two children with such a large age gap.

Like I said in my post....two three year olds playing "showing/poking at pee pees" - totally normal, no matter what your comfort level is as a parent...and like I said, in that scenario, I would redirect but I wouldn't be freaking out. But two three year olds OR a three year old and an eleven year old playing "kissy pee pee" is a big deal...because it speaks of an adult or older kid influence, due to the speficic sex act being played out.

No on is saying that what happened is okay. No one is saying that three year old are supposed to be preforming oral sex on each other, no one said that. Period.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *denimtiger* 
Yes, this. I'm sorry, but justifying this by calling it a mistake or normal or "experimentation" on a THREE YEAR OLD is beyond inappropriate. It is NOT okay. I'm pretty sure that couching something like this in those kind of terms is HOW abuse in families gets "overlooked" for years.

Two six-year-olds explore, yes but not with their mouths. Really, though, even two eleven year olds are old enough to be sliding into much more dangerous territory -- even WITHOUT oral contact. Twelve-year-old girls becoming pregnant is not exactly unheard of. But an eleven-year-old and a THREE year old? That is not okay.

I cannot even imagine how I would feel if I found out that my older cousin did something like that to me when I was three years old, and my mom took sympathy on him, and tried not to make him feel bad, and supported his "mistake" and kept us involved in a relationship.

I'm not saying to emotionally or physically beat up the nephew. In fact, I think that discussing things with him at all should be left up to his parents and counselors. But spending quality family time together with him and my violated child? No.

I agree with you. And I know all too well how families brush aside sexual abuse perpetuated by a child upon another child even when the power differential is obvious. I lived it for many years of my childhood. And I am to this day blamed for causing a rift in the family when I cut said molester out of my life when I turned 18.
I think it's actually a good idea to not see the 11 yr. old any more. I can understand being very angry with him, he molested her child for crying out loud. I sincerely hope he gets the help he needs and he does not become an adult abuser.


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## GoestoShow (Jul 15, 2009)

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## neetling (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NiteNicole* 
I'll be perfectly honest - I would not potentially sacrifice my child's well being for another child's. I just would not. I can accept that the nephew has had a hard life and is probably acting out something that has happened to him and that he's not "evil" and that he's probably a victim, I can even be compassionate (although if it had been my three year old then maybe not) but I can very much see how the OP would decide that having the two of them together was just not worth the chance of what might happen. This incident was in a room full of people. And this was not exploration between peers, which is a whole other thing.

I would protect MY child first, ESPECIALLY as the nephew seems to have a mom who is on top of the situation and really looking into his best interest. Some day WAY down the line when I felt my child was not quite so vulnerable, we might consider having them together again. Supervised.

My child is my priority and I am her primary protector.

OP, I'm so sorry this has happened in your family. For everyone.

This exactly. We have a child molester in my family. I haven't seen him since he did it over 20 years ago. So I do drop them. I don't know what to do since this was a child, but my gut says to keep my kids safe first and foremost. I'm not totally sure what his age has to do with it. So he was eleven. What if he were 12? 13? does it really matter?


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## Dov'sMom (Jan 24, 2007)

One brief point that may have been overlooked.

OP said her son told her they were "doing pee-pee kisses." Not "X was kissing my pee-pee" -- "we were doing pee-pee kisses." That implies to me that this was not a one time thing -- this was something that they have done repeatedly, often enough to give it a name. It also makes me wonder whether the nephew might have had OP's son "kiss" his penis as well.

OP has said that the boys were always supervised in the past. If they were always supervised in the past and they may have nonetheless played out sexual games multiple times, then I would agree with OP that she has no choice but to cut off contact entirely, at least in the short term, while she figures out what to do and how to do it. She has to know how pervasive this was.


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## goodygumdrops (Jan 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Beene* 
But see, you are misinterpreting people. No one is condoning what happened at all. What happened was NOT ok and no one said it was. The people saying perspective is necessary are saying this because, yes, while the boy is 11, he is a product of the flawed foster care system and has likely been abused himself. So, 11 and should know better does not apply to him because he is NOT a normal child. He is sick and abused himself. He needs love and patience to heal too. He is just a child, not a monster!

From the OP's son's perspective, he was playing a game with his cousin and friend, NOT an abuser. He, so far, does not seem to be showing any signs of trauma. So, why make the nephew out into the ABUSER, the BAD GUY, the guy whose FAULT it is? Why punish them BOTH by annihilating their friendship?It doesn't make any sense to make such a huge production out of something that needs attention from a counselor and supervision and vigilance from adults. In my opinion the drama would affect the children more than the original incident.









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## mamakah (Nov 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
First of all, I want to say I can't even imagine how sad/freaked out you are over this, as I would be as well. I think you have handled it very well.

I was told by a therapist one time that studies have shown that it is not sexual abuse/molestation in and of itself that causes long term damage to a person, but rather how it is handled or how they are treated. Children who are not believed, children who are in a situation of being scared to tell, children who are threatened and manipulated for a long time, children who are made to feel ashamed - these are the ones who end up dealing with serious repurcussions. Children who experienced a one time, non violent incident, and were immediately believed and protected by their parents (or adults in charge) go on to have no discernable effects from the situation.

Now, I don't have any personal experience with this, but it made sense to me. As scary as this is for you, it sounds like he will be fine.

My main question is: What is happening in regards to future contact with his cousin? I'm not insinuating that they should never see each other again, although that may be one answer, but how you and your sister feel about it and agree to deal with it, and how it's explained to your son. This kind of stuff can really put a strain on family relationships.

I believe this to be true. I was fondled by a playground attendant when I was in elementary school, we weren't even out of the school parking lot when I told my mom, and she instantly went to the cops. She made sure I went to the rape crisis center that week and started talking to someone about it. The school didn't believe the story and refused to fire the man. My mom would not let up and had everyone involved. Finally the school fired him and the rape crisis center came in and taught good and bad touching to all the classes. I have never felt an ounce of shame, embarrassment or guilt. I never think about it and actually forget that I was ever "victimized".


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *neetling* 
This exactly. We have a child molester in my family. I haven't seen him since he did it over 20 years ago. So I do drop them. I don't know what to do since this was a child, but my gut says to keep my kids safe first and foremost. I'm not totally sure what his age has to do with it. So he was eleven. What if he were 12? 13? does it really matter?

I know it's a really long thread, but if you read through it you'll see that no one thinks what NiteNicole said. The issue about the nephew being more important than the son's safety is a non-issue here because NO ONE thinks that that is true. OPs son is of course her first and foremost responsibility. We all agree about that.

And you'll also get an answer to why age of both OP's son and the nephew matter. Age matters because he was both old enough to know he shouldn't do it, but young enough to still be a child who has to be worked with re: why he did it, and a bunch of other questions.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamakah* 
I believe this to be true. I was fondled by a playground attendant when I was in elementary school, we weren't even out of the school parking lot when I told my mom, and she instantly went to the cops. She made sure I went to the rape crisis center that week and started talking to someone about it. The school didn't believe the story and refused to fire the man. My mom would not let up and had everyone involved. Finally the school fired him and the rape crisis center came in and taught good and bad touching to all the classes. I have never felt an ounce of shame, embarrassment or guilt. I never think about it and actually forget that I was ever "victimized".

Your mom is awesome! And it is incredible that the school didn't believe and wouldn't fire him, but again your mom is awesome for not letting up.

OP is just as awesome, as is her sister. Both have responded immediately and amazingly, and OP made sure her son didn't feel he'd done anything wrong.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dov'sMom* 
OP said her son told her they were "doing pee-pee kisses." Not "X was kissing my pee-pee" -- "we were doing pee-pee kisses." That implies to me that this was not a one time thing -- this was something that they have done repeatedly, often enough to give it a name.

I have a lot of thoughts about this situation, which I'm not going to get into. I already know I'll do a very poor job of expressing them and will wind up sounding like I'm saying something completely different than I meant. However, I don't get this from"pee-pee kisses" at all. DS2 is far more likely to say "nose kisses" or "toe kisses" or "elbow kisses" than to say "kissing her/my nose/toes/elbow". It's not because he's naming a regular occurrence - it's just the way he expresses things. He has, in fact, referred to "penis kisses" (and "bum kisses") a couple of times, when on one of his potty humour sprees.

This is an awful situation, and it's obviously _possible_ that it's happened before, but the term "pee-pee kisses" isn't really indicative of anything, imo.

I do wonder what's going on with the nephew, I've never dealt with an abuser who would have dared a venue as non-secure as a fort in the middle of the room.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LROM* 
I know it's a really long thread, but if you read through it you'll see that no one thinks what NiteNicole said. The issue about the nephew being more important than the son's safety is a non-issue here because NO ONE thinks that that is true. OPs son is of course her first and foremost responsibility. We all agree about that.

And you'll also get an answer to why age of both OP's son and the nephew matter. Age matters because he was both old enough to know he shouldn't do it, but young enough to still be a child who has to be worked with re: why he did it, and a bunch of other questions.

I'm not sure exactly what you think I said, what I will try one more time to say that trying to foster a relationship between them is, to me, possibly sacrificing my child's well being for another's. I'm not saying anyone here said that the 11 year old is more important, I'm saying that TO ME, having them continue to see each other would involve the possibility of something further happening to my child or his resenting me later or feeling unloved because I didn't end contact with this older child. I didn't say anyone here said forget the little one, the older child is more important. I'm saying that all the emphasis on continuing their relationship for the sake of the older child could harm the younger one and that some of us could see that as putting the younger in harm's way for the sake of the older. I would not do that to my child.

I don't want to go back and pick on anyone in particular, but if you go back and read what everyone has said, the OP has been accused of being the one messing up the family if she keeps her son away from the older child and she's been told that the only one REALLY hurting is the nephew. There's a lot of emphasis on not making the nephew "feel like a bad kid" but as I said, his mom is there to help him process that. The op can only be held responsible for HER child. As much as I have sympathy for a child who has had a hard time, the reasons he may have done what he did do not negate the effects of what he's done.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NiteNicole* 
I'll be perfectly honest - I would not potentially sacrifice my child's well being for another child's. I just would not. I can accept that the nephew has had a hard life and is probably acting out something that has happened to him and that he's not "evil" and that he's probably a victim, I can even be compassionate (although if it had been my three year old then maybe not) but I can very much see how the OP would decide that having the two of them together was just not worth the chance of what might happen. This incident was in a room full of people. And this was not exploration between peers, which is a whole other thing.

I would protect MY child first, ESPECIALLY as the nephew seems to have a mom who is on top of the situation and really looking into his best interest. Some day WAY down the line when I felt my child was not quite so vulnerable, we might consider having them together again. Supervised.

My child is my priority and I am her primary protector.

OP, I'm so sorry this has happened in your family. For everyone.

It's not what I _think_ you said, it's what you actually said above. I'm just pointing out that no one prior to your post said that her child shouldn't be protected first and that needed to be clear, since others have now picked up that quote.

And no one has said that the nephew's history negates his current action to OPs son.

It's already such a sticky conversation, just trying to point out that on some of these key things there is actually NO disagreement. That still leaves plenty of hard stuff that we do not all agree on, which is fine. But let's not get rankled about things that actually no one thinks in the first place.


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## fwlady (May 11, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *knucklehead* 
My sister is beside herself and is making no excuses whatsoever. She herself contacted social services to let them know and is having an emergency meeting with his psychiatrist. She is disgusted by this and crushed. Everything that has been poured into my nephew has been a waste. I feel horrible for my sister. She simultaeously loves him and is so tired and repulsed by him. I don't know what this is going to do to our family. Nothing is ever going to be the same. I never want to look at my nephew again and my children will never be around him. I have no idea how I'm going to explain to my son why he never sees his cousin anymore. He is used to seeing him at least once a week. He still asks for his cat that ran away over a year ago! What do I tell him? I think of holidays, birthdays etc., what the hell do we do now? Everything is ruined. Even if I get my son past the actual act how do I explain everything else? A death would be easier to explain than this. I'm at a loss.

I am so glad to hear that your sister is being proactive. Without going into more detail, I want to say that I have extensive experience on this type of thing and years of seeing how these things pan out over many years. Diffferent reactions, different results.

I want to say how very sorry I am that this has happened to your son. Your son will be more traumatized by being uprooted from losing all contact. However, if it is possible, probably preferable, and they can meet up at family gatherings when he is much older.

Case #1 One boy I know of had an experience at 3.5yo that was considered inoccuous. Same child has NEVER been abused at any other time. Same child has victimized several family members before it was discovered. Mother of boy NEVER made excuses. Did counseling. Child NEVER realized how serious and wrong such behavior was(because of age difference, lying, hiding behavior, etc), and that as he got older, he could be convicted of a felony. Therapists kept saying "experimental se*ual exploration". Boy had no psychological diagnosis whatsoever to give them a reason for the behavior. Grew up in stable and loving home. Boy didn't stop behavior until at 13yo he went to residential treatment. Boy is also a model citizen and academically doing well and very social, charismatic, hard worker. Homeschooled most of his life. Boy got into internet and saw things he shouldn't. Young man seems to pose no more threat, and has successful life.

Case #2 Boy molested sister of 5 years younger over a year or so. Family brushed under rug and never held boy responsible. Younger sister train wreck for all her life. Other boys in neighborhood considering having s*x with younger sisters perfectly normal, and "experimental play". Activity stopped. Had a pretty normal childhood in large family, although father had died young and when boy was 5yo. Never abused by ANYONE. Fast forward. Grown man molests 10-11yo daughter. Blames daughter for being "seduced". Is criminally charged and given 5 yrs probation, registers as s*x offender, and counseling. Counseling never had any effect. Fast forward. Older man uses internet to find victims. Was off of list because of lack of getting caught again. Man sitting in prison for trying to get young girls off of net to meet up, ran off to Canada, and is serving more time.

Case #3 Teenage boy is socially inept. Reads all the time, and is an introvert. "Experiments" with foster sister 3 yrs younger who is soon to be adopted. Activity is stopped by girl. Both grow up to have their own families, and everything seems pretty normal. Man is very protective of his children. Woman is very protective of her children.

Case #4 Special needs uncle is found in closet with 3 and 4yo niece and nephew. Found by older brother. Nothing done. Seems innocuous to children who later "experiment" on much younger nephew/nieces. Same uncle moves in with lady with children. Inappropriate fondling with those children. Given jail time and probation. Does not have contact with any children anymore.

There are other "cases" that I can think of, but won't go into all of it here. I think that your sister is handling this right. But, unfortunately, the state will try anything to brush it under the rug to avoid labeling a child a s*x offender. She will have to PUSH for services, and she SHOULD. (not for a label though) This type of thing tends to run in bio families, and the boy may not even know WHY he is doing these things. I think a lot of the stuff they purport as "continuing the cycle" may only be coincidence. A boy is molested is thought to molest. However, many of the cases I have seen, the child was never molested, not by definition. There may have been a trigger; like seeing p*rn, s*x ed class, etc. There are cases where the boy/man had a relative that they never had contact with, who also was never molested, that had a compulsion to molest. Maybe the molestation took place before their memories could form, like before 4-5yo, the time that ppl think that it is "innocuous" and not important to do counseling or follow up.

I am not saying that the person victimizing others is not to be blamed. I don't think we can fully blame all of them either. I think that they have a sin issue that needs to be dealt with. I believe that the earlier the intervention, and CONTINUED intervention, the better.

To be the mother of such boys/men is such a burden. Your sister needs your love and care, even if it means you meet up when the kids are with their fathers. Don't alleniate your family entirely, please. To have a child that you have to watch like a hawk and that already has issues has to be so hard for her. She has chosen to adopt this boy, and although the state would take him back if she chose to do so, I am sure she couldn't bare to do that. She will be his best advocate and advocates of other children too. And, hopefully, with her intervention (and your love towards the nephew), he will grow up to be a stable young man.

And, TBH, in order to prevent this happening to others, you will have to watch your own son carefully, so that another mother won't be in your shoes someday. Having a happy and stable family does not make your son immune to the consequences of this. Being young, he will not know WHY he acts out the same on someone else, but he may anyway. It is sad and unfortunate, that this was not your fault, but yet you will have to live life differently than you would have otherwise. This last part is JMHO. I don't think that a victim should be considered a possible perp in the future. But, unfortunately, it happens all that often, moreso when they are so young and don't remember the incident or any hurtful feelings against it. And, to not treat it proactively, makes the same thing happen over and again.

Please no flaming or criticizing my advice. I hesitated to add the last paragraph, but I think it is important. Kymberli


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## smeisnotapirate (Aug 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I do wonder what's going on with the nephew, I've never dealt with an abuser who would have dared a venue as non-secure as a fort in the middle of the room.

Exactly. _Abusers_ are smart about it, and would never do something in a venue where they were so sure to be caught. A child would, but not an abuser.

I know the age gap is huge, but the nephew's past of being in the foster system and his social awkwardness makes him so much more a child than "11yo" can describe. It's about social age, NOT biological age. If this were a "developmentally disabled" child, it would be a totally different story for many of the posters here - and I really think that he should be treated as such and given the benefit of reconciliation _at some point._ Not now, not soon, but after counseling on EVERYONE's part and once time has healed some of the wounds.


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## neetling (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LROM* 
I know it's a really long thread, but if you read through it you'll see that no one thinks what NiteNicole said. The issue about the nephew being more important than the son's safety is a non-issue here because NO ONE thinks that that is true. OPs son is of course her first and foremost responsibility. We all agree about that.

And you'll also get an answer to why age of both OP's son and the nephew matter. Age matters because he was both old enough to know he shouldn't do it, but young enough to still be a child who has to be worked with re: why he did it, and a bunch of other questions.

I read the whole thread. I still think what I wrote. I think the nephew needs help, no doubt. But I also would not ever put my kids back into a situation where they could be victimized again.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fwlady* 

Case #1 One boy I know of had an experience at 3.5yo that was considered inoccuous. Same child has NEVER been abused at any other time. Same child has victimized several family members before it was discovered. Mother of boy NEVER made excuses. .......

Case #2 Boy molested sister of 5 years younger over a year or so. Family brushed under rug and never held boy responsible. Younger sister train wreck for all her life. Other boys in neighborhood considering having s*x with younger sisters perfectly normal, and "experimental play". Activity stopped. Had a pretty normal childhood in large family, although father had died young and when boy was 5yo. Never abused by ANYONE. .......


Your examples show how many different shapes/forms abuse can take.

Just wondering - given the often invisible and hidden nature of sexual abuse, how does anyone know for sure that in the above 2 cases where you say there "NEVER" any other abuse incident... how can anyone be certain there was no other prior abuse?


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## neetling (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NiteNicole* 
I'm not sure exactly what you think I said, what I will try one more time to say that trying to foster a relationship between them is, to me, possibly sacrificing my child's well being for another's. I'm not saying anyone here said that the 11 year old is more important, I'm saying that TO ME, having them continue to see each other would involve the possibility of something further happening to my child or his resenting me later or feeling unloved because I didn't end contact with this older child. I didn't say anyone here said forget the little one, the older child is more important. I'm saying that all the emphasis on continuing their relationship for the sake of the older child could harm the younger one and that some of us could see that as putting the younger in harm's way for the sake of the older. I would not do that to my child.

I don't want to go back and pick on anyone in particular, but if you go back and read what everyone has said, the OP has been accused of being the one messing up the family if she keeps her son away from the older child and she's been told that the only one REALLY hurting is the nephew. There's a lot of emphasis on not making the nephew "feel like a bad kid" but as I said, his mom is there to help him process that. The op can only be held responsible for HER child. As much as I have sympathy for a child who has had a hard time, the reasons he may have done what he did do not negate the effects of what he's done.

I totally agree with this too.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *smeisnotapirate* 
Exactly. _Abusers_ are smart about it, and would never do something in a venue where they were so sure to be caught. A child would, but not an abuser.

That's actually not true. Kids have been molested while sitting on the perpetrator's lap in the room with others (or 'tickled' etc). And the nephew wasn't molesting op's son in plain site anyway.


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## smeisnotapirate (Aug 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *neetling* 
I read the whole thread. I still think what I wrote. I think the nephew needs help, no doubt. But I also would not ever put my kids back into a situation where they could be victimized again.

That thought makes me really sad for that poor boy. 11 years old, and he's had his one strike. He's out. Regardless of the help he gets.

You can still have contact with him without putting your kids back into a situation where they could be victimized again. You can have them play together - but this time, no forts or alone time allowed.

Those of us who seem to be "putting the nephew first" are just advocating to not decide now, in the heat of the moment, to cut this part of her family off. To just keep the option open.


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## neetling (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *smeisnotapirate* 
That thought makes me really sad for that poor boy. 11 years old, and he's had his one strike. He's out. Regardless of the help he gets.

You can still have contact with him without putting your kids back into a situation where they could be victimized again. You can have them play together - but this time, no forts or alone time allowed.

Those of us who seem to be "putting the nephew first" are just advocating to not decide now, in the heat of the moment, to cut this part of her family off. To just keep the option open.

Okay - and I was there when the abuser in my family molested my cousin (cousin to cousin - older boy was babysitting us) I know what it did to not only the girl who was actually abused but to the rest of us that were there. I choose to not knowingly put my kids into a situation like that. What does that say to the victim? (though there are those arguing that the 3 year old is not a victim, what if he changes his mind one day?) If the kids were closer in age and it was a normal exploration kind of thing I could see it, but I can't in this situation. I don't know either kid. I'm going off of what the OP has said and my own personal experiences.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *neetling* 
Okay - and I was there when the abuser in my family molested my cousin (cousin to cousin - older boy was babysitting us) I know what it did to not only the girl who was actually abused but to the rest of us that were there. I choose to not knowingly put my kids into a situation like that. What does that say to the victim? (though there are those arguing that the 3 year old is not a victim, what if he changes his mind one day?) If the kids were closer in age and it was a normal exploration kind of thing I could see it, but I can't in this situation. I don't know either kid. I'm going off of what the OP has said and my own personal experiences.

I agree. And we do not know if that was the first incident of molestation either (of the op's son or other children).


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

Neetling it sounds like in your situation all those kids were unsupervised. I think everyone who's mentioned hoping OP will one day open to maybe still allowing her son (who she says herself loves her nephew) to still be able to see him sometimes has said "SUPERVISED".

Supervision is clearly and obviously key to any future relationship, and OP herself was already thinking that and that's why she looked in. "Playing tent" seemed harmless at the time, but now we know it wasn't.

All some of us are saying is, if the cousins really value each other and OPs son will have a hard time never seeing his cousin again, and if it's possible to have constant adult supervision at all times, maybe that will be best for everyone in the future. But only if there's constant supervision!

No one... no one wants OPs son to be mistreated again. But there's some room between "they never see each other again" and "leave them in a room alone totally unsupervised".


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## fwlady (May 11, 2009)

<<<Many of us are just suggesting that 1) if her son doesn't seem upset by what happened and isn't aware that it's considered wrong, he is likely not to be negatively affected by the incident itself. >>>>

As an addendum to my post and to explain my last paragraph better, IMO, a baby of 3.5yo may not see it as wrong and as innocent. He will forget about it, unless reminded over the years. So, I just wanted to reiterate, that BECAUSE he forgot and BECAUSE he felt nothing negative, he may very well "abuse" another child of the same age when he is older. When the memory fades, and he has no idea why he is doing it, and feels no shame because it was made to not be wrong, then this puts risk to other children when he grows older.

And, it is VERY POSSIBLE, this is what happened with the nephew. Now, my theory, is that many abuse others because it is biologically in them. However, if the cycle is repeated, it is often times, because they were too young to remember that it was hurtful and wrong. KWIM?

I am not trying to make it sound like it is the victim's fault, or that it should be treated as such. Any person who has dealt with this kind of thing has a very hard road to tow, and a very fine line to walk. I am praying for you OP, and I know this is so hard for you both.

I may not be wording what I am trying to say correctly. But, I do think that a child that has been abused, should probably have their own room if they have siblings. Because what is "common" shouldn't necassarily be seen as "normal". Unfortunately, these types of situations are happening more and more, or it just isn't a dirty little secret anymore and it is being talked about more.

Anyway, JMHO. Kymberli


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## fwlady (May 11, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LROM* 
Your examples show how many different shapes/forms abuse can take.

Just wondering - given the often invisible and hidden nature of sexual abuse, how does anyone know for sure that in the above 2 cases where you say there "NEVER" any other abuse incident... how can anyone be certain there was no other prior abuse?

I meant that they were asked and don't remember any events besides the one I mentioned in case #1. And, they were both being very candid and honest. There was no reason to lie. It was a study, a real interest of mine. And, of my experience, abusers tend to blame someone else, so if they had someone to blame, I am sure they would have. #1 took responsibility, #2 did not.

Since victims of abuse are more likely to abuse later, seems to be the current theory, then any abuse would have had to happen before their memories were formed and stuck in their minds. Hence, my 2nd theory, that if abuse does take place before 5yo, then the child is more likely to emulate it. Kymberli


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fwlady* 
I meant that they were asked and don't remember any events besides the one I mentioned in case #1. And, they were both being very candid and honest. There was no reason to lie. It was a study, a real interest of mine. And, of my experience, abusers tend to blame someone else, so if they had someone to blame, I am sure they would have.

<snip>

Since victims of abuse are more likely to abuse later, seems to be the current theory, then any abuse would have had to happen before their memories were formed and stuck in their minds.

I think it has very little to do with "before their memories were formed". I was abused from about age 2 (hard to pin down) until I was about 8. I remember _very_ early incidents, and don't remember some of the later ones (definitely some blurring going on, of course, as there were many incidents). My ex-husband was abused at about age 5. He never remembered it at all (and he would absolutely have loved to blame his issues on someone else)...until just after our break-up when he had a _massive_ emotional collapse, and woke up with the memories back in his head. I have no idea how repression of memories actually works, neurologically, but he had absolutely repressed them. He was old enough to remember - in fact, he had many memories from the same time period (easy enough to pin down, as he moved to another province around then) - but he didn't remember the molestation until he was 30. We met when he was 15.


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## Dov'sMom (Jan 24, 2007)

I've been thinking about this all day and I don't have any answers, just musings.

OP, you said your son wasn't bothered or shamed by the activity. Will he put two and two together when he doesn't see his cousin anymore and understand that it was becuase of what they were doing? Because when you found them, HE was the one with his penis out, and I'm sure he heard his cousin blaming it on him. I can't imagine trying to explain to a 3.5 yo that what happened was wrong, but it wasn't your fault (even though you were a/the prime player -- in his head, anyway), and we're not going to let you see your cousin anymore but it's not to punish you... It just seems like the act of keeping them totally separated could itself cause your son to magnify the incident and create guilt/shame feelings in him.

Assuming you are committed to cutting off contact entirely, could you do it slowly but safely? For example, they see each other roughly once a week you said. So in about a week, go out to the movies with your sister and nephew -- in separate cars, and seat one of the adults between the boys. So they have a fun experience together, but there's no chance of anything happening. Or meet up for lunch at a restaurant and sit the kids on opposite sides of the table.

That would at the minimum create some distance between this event and the time when DS's cousin disappears from his life, and maybe even give you time to think more about whether any relationship is possible.

Everyone, feel free to tell me I'm crazy...


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I think it has very little to do with "before their memories were formed". I was abused from about age 2 (hard to pin down) until I was about 8. I remember _very_ early incidents, and don't remember some of the later ones (definitely some blurring going on, of course, as there were many incidents). My ex-husband was abused at about age 5. He never remembered it at all (and he would absolutely have loved to blame his issues on someone else)...until just after our break-up when he had a _massive_ emotional collapse, and woke up with the memories back in his head. I have no idea how repression of memories actually works, neurologically, but he had absolutely repressed them. He was old enough to remember - in fact, he had many memories from the same time period (easy enough to pin down, as he moved to another province around then) - but he didn't remember the molestation until he was 30. We met when he was 15.

fwlady/Kymberli, I'm also in the field of child welfare and it sounds to me like maybe you haven't yet come across 2 very common dynamics in child abuse - or maybe no one's called them to your attention yet. StormBride's post is definitely one of them.

One is where, like in OPs case, the children at the time of abuse didn't recognize it as abuse. This means when questioned about it later, even if asked whether specific acts had ever happened, they didn't remember because it simply didn't stick out in their memory.

And then the opposite but even more common dynamic which Storm Bride just talked about is that very often the experience and memory of abuse is so painful and debilitating, the brain literally locks it away until somehow later the brain/body feels it can handle the memory and it comes back. So for many years there is no memory of the abuse and if you asked the person they would say honestly that it didn't happen. But then years later, if given a safer place or the victim is in a stronger place, sometimes those self-preservation mechanisms we have feel it's ok to loosen up a bit and memories start to come back. Have you heard of "recovered memories" or similar dynamics? They are very real.

I don't dispute that the children you talked to were being open and honest. But I do dispute your idea that the fact that they didn't reportany abuse and seemed not to remember any means that it is a certainty that they were never abused before.

There is simply waaaaay too much science and professional experience out there that shows children and adults sometimes do not remember because it is their self-preservation kicking in and not allowing them to remember. But that doesn't change the fact that the abuse did actually happen and was discovered later, after initial inquiries.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dov'sMom* 
I've been thinking about this all day and I don't have any answers, just musings.

OP, you said your son wasn't bothered or shamed by the activity. Will he put two and two together when he doesn't see his cousin anymore and understand that it was becuase of what they were doing? Because when you found them, HE was the one with his penis out, and I'm sure he heard his cousin blaming it on him. I can't imagine trying to explain to a 3.5 yo that what happened was wrong, but it wasn't your fault (even though you were a/the prime player -- in his head, anyway), and we're not going to let you see your cousin anymore but it's not to punish you... It just seems like the act of keeping them totally separated could itself cause your son to magnify the incident and create guilt/shame feelings in him.

Assuming you are committed to cutting off contact entirely, could you do it slowly but safely? For example, they see each other roughly once a week you said. So in about a week, go out to the movies with your sister and nephew -- in separate cars, and seat one of the adults between the boys. So they have a fun experience together, but there's no chance of anything happening. Or meet up for lunch at a restaurant and sit the kids on opposite sides of the table.

That would at the minimum create some distance between this event and the time when DS's cousin disappears from his life, and maybe even give you time to think more about whether any relationship is possible.

Everyone, feel free to tell me I'm crazy...

You're not crazy at all, quite the opposite. What you say happens all the time and it's a very real thing for OP to consider as she decides what her next steps will be.


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## Beene (May 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LROM* 
Neetling it sounds like in your situation all those kids were unsupervised. I think everyone who's mentioned hoping OP will one day open to maybe still allowing her son (who she says herself loves her nephew) to still be able to see him sometimes has said "SUPERVISED".

Supervision is clearly and obviously key to any future relationship, and OP herself was already thinking that and that's why she looked in. "Playing tent" seemed harmless at the time, but now we know it wasn't.

All some of us are saying is, if the cousins really value each other and OPs son will have a hard time never seeing his cousin again, and if it's possible to have constant adult supervision at all times, maybe that will be best for everyone in the future. But only if there's constant supervision!

No one... no one wants OPs son to be mistreated again. But there's some room between "they never see each other again" and "leave them in a room alone totally unsupervised".

Exactly. Also "what if he changes is mind about being a victim one day?" Why would he change his mind? Because someone keeps reminding him that he SHOULD be one?


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Man this is a hard situation.









I absolutely feel that you should do what you feel you need to do _right now._ I think that life surprises us sometimes and what is absolutely the correct thing _right now_ may not be the correct thing for all time.

Counseling, counseling, counseling for everyone in your whole family. This is rough and processing it will be difficult for all involved.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
I was told by a therapist one time that studies have shown that it is not sexual abuse/molestation in and of itself that causes long term damage to a person, but rather how it is handled or how they are treated. Children who are not believed, children who are in a situation of being scared to tell, children who are threatened and manipulated for a long time, children who are made to feel ashamed - these are the ones who end up dealing with serious repurcussions. Children who experienced a one time, non violent incident, and were immediately believed and protected by their parents (or adults in charge) go on to have no discernable effects from the situation.

This is what I was taught too.


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## denimtiger (Jan 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Beene* 
Exactly. Also "what if he changes is mind about being a victim one day?" Why would he change his mind? Because someone keeps reminding him that he SHOULD be one?


Or, because at three he thinks it's funny and has no idea of the reality of the situation. But if he remembers this incident when he's 14, I'm quite sure he'll have a different outlook.

If someone told you now that a much older cousin had your pants down and was making oral contact with your genitals when you were three years old, would you think you were not in any way a victim?


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *knucklehead* 
I don't know what this is going to do to our family. Nothing is ever going to be the same. I never want to look at my nephew again and my children will never be around him. I have no idea how I'm going to explain to my son why he never sees his cousin anymore. He is used to seeing him at least once a week. He still asks for his cat that ran away over a year ago! What do I tell him? I think of holidays, birthdays etc., what the hell do we do now? Everything is ruined. Even if I get my son past the actual act how do I explain everything else? A death would be easier to explain than this. I'm at a loss.

Your nephew is still worth being around. Get over being mad first though. He's still a kid who's overcome very, very unfair obstacles.

His urges are normal. His actions are not normal. Or at least they aren't OK. Your nephew and son should still see each other, but never leave him alone or even out of sight. Not even for a minute.

I know what he did was wrong, but your nephew shouldn't be hated. (hate him now.. you are still mad) so try to get past it if possible.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *denimtiger* 
If someone told you now that a much older cousin had your pants down and was making oral contact with your genitals when you were three years old, would you think you were not in any way a victim?

That would depend on many, many factors. In any case, believing intellectually, after the fact, that one was victimized, is a very different experience than feeling victimized at the time. I'm not urging the OP to go in any particular direction, except that I agree counseling for all parties is probably in order (more serious counseling for the nephew, of course, but he seems to already have a team in place). However, if the OP's ds remembers this all along, and has had counseling, and understands about his cousin's background, and knows he's being supervised/protected, that's not likely to end up with the same emotional ramifications as either feeling traumatized now, _or_ being told years later about it, yk?


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## swd12422 (Nov 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *smeisnotapirate* 
That thought makes me really sad for that poor boy. 11 years old, and he's had his one strike. He's out. Regardless of the help he gets.

You can still have contact with him without putting your kids back into a situation where they could be victimized again. You can have them play together - but this time, no forts or alone time allowed.

Those of us who seem to be "putting the nephew first" are just advocating to not decide now, in the heat of the moment, to cut this part of her family off. To just keep the option open.

This. Yes, the cousin is an "offender." But he's also only 11! He has the rest of his life ahead of him, including some very formative years, and how his family treats him will play a huge role in the man he becomes. The OP already said he has trouble relating to his peers. So if his extended family dumps him too, where will that leave his self-worth? The boy needs all the positive reinforcement he can get, and needs to learn appropriate limits and boundaries. Alienating him won't teach him that; it will teach him that he is "bad" and will grow up to continue doing "bad" things. I don't think anyone wants that for him.

OP, I don't blame you for wanting to cut off ties, and you should definitely take a break from that relationship for awhile. But please reconsider the permanency of it. Your sister has been struggling for years with him. It's exhausting, and she needs support. Please don't let her give up on her boy.


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## aran (Feb 9, 2005)

I have distinct memories from 2 and 3 years old. One is of my much older brother changing my diaper. It wasn't traumatic at all, but he didn't normally do that, and I distinctly remember feeling embarrassed, then relieved to be clean again.

My point is that the OP's DS might remember the incident. If he thought it was a silly game, if he liked it, and if there isn't some clear sign that it was verty seriously not OK, he might well try it out with another kid. How do you give your kid this kind of sign without making him feel like a victim? I don't know. It just points to the need for a therapist that specializes in this.

Also, I agree with PPs that the OP's DS might remember this and as his understanding of the incident's seriousness develops, he might wonder why Mom kept bringing the 11 yo around.

No one has addressed the thoughts of the OP's partner (if he's in the picture). I know my DH would be ruthless in cutting off anyone that did this to one of my DSs, regardless of my feelings. And I think he has a right to do so, as an equal parent. I know if this happened in my family, I'd be visiting my sister alone, forevermore.

I am sorry, OP, that you are mourning that your family can never be the way it once was. I think if it were me, I would feel the same way as you. I hope your sister can help your nephew, but I totally disagree with the PPs that think it is your responsibility to help him or in any way worry about preserving your DS's relationship with him. I am offended on your behalf at those comments! Good luck in an awful situation for your family.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aran* 
Also, I agree with PPs that the OP's DS might remember this and as his understanding of the incident's seriousness develops, he might wonder why Mom kept bringing the 11 yo around.

This is part of why this is so hard. This could definitely happen. It could also happen that he ends up feeling responsible for breaking up the family and is traumatized by _that_. There's just no way to know.

The OP wanted advice, and I think the advice to get counseling for _everyone_ involved is the best. Therapists are trained to handle this kind of thing, and a bunch of women on a bulletin board, no matter how well meaning, compassionate, or even wise (there are definitely some wise, wise women here), simply aren't. Plus, it's going to take someone actually working with the OP's ds to get a good handle on what's best for _him_.


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

^Yeah that. I noticed OP disappeared a while back, and I hope it isn't because of all the quibbling from us. Hugs and prayers to you again, OP.


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## no5no5 (Feb 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *smeisnotapirate* 
Exactly. _Abusers_ are smart about it, and would never do something in a venue where they were so sure to be caught. A child would, but not an abuser.

I respectfully disagree. Having worked in the courts, I have seen a number of cases where abuse takes place in very open places, and sometimes in plain view of multiple witnesses. Abusers are not criminal masterminds; they are people with addictions and mental problems, and are typically trying (albeit in a truly awful, unproductive, hurtful way) to deal with their own histories of abuse.

OP, I think this is a situation where you _need_ to seek professional help for yourself and your son. These situations are incredibly hard to deal with and process and you should not try to get through it on your own. I hope your whole family does get help and that all of you are able to work through this problem and move past it.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

OP: As so often happens in this kind of thread, I've become involved in the discussion of the overall issue, and the potential, hypothetical reactions that your son might have. Since your concern is obviously with your son, right now, that probably feels a bit cold - at least, I think I'd find it cold if I were in your shoes.

I just wanted to pop back in and say that I'm so sorry this has happened, and I'm really impressed with how well you and your sister are coping with it. I hope you can find a path that helps your little boy and allows you to maintain some relationship with your sister.


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## confustication (Mar 18, 2006)

Both boys involved are lucky to have amazing parents who cleary want to do the best they can for them.

In the OPs shoes, my child would not see the older cousin again in any setting that didn't involve DIRECT supervision, and even then, I'd be really wary of it.

In the older child's mother's shoes, I'd be looking into getting this boy some help, and probably would make sure my child could not be around the rest of the family for a long while. She can explain to him exactly why.

You know, I hear loads of sob stories about the abusers' pasts, and the brutal truth is that I really don't care. People make a choice when they become perpetrators. 11 is old enough to know better, he CHOSE to sexually abuse a younger relative. I really don't care, at that point, what the background is, or that he might be rehabilitated or anything else. I care that he isn't ever in a position to cause harm again.

All of that can be made to happen with minimal impact on the younger child. "Bobby's not going to be around much for a while, he's busy with school."


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

I will say up front that this is a huge sensitive spot for me, so if the following is not an appropriate post, Moderator feel free to delete. But confustication since you said how you feel, this is how I feel:

If you care at all about the situation, which you seem to because you posted about it, then you SHOULD care about the abuser in this case.

Because in the vast majority of cases it is because of people who don't care or who believe that once someone is abusive they don't matter anymore that further children get abused and many become abusers themselves.

Yes, there are people who are just born evil and are never abused and just go on to knowingly hurt people. But they are so few and far between, and in my 21 years of working with dysfunctional families and child abuse I have NEVER EVER met that person who did evil things in a vacuum. Once you met the parents or read the file you knew exactly why that person turned into such a dangerous mess. And you usually also see where if there had been the right intervention, they probably wouldn't be as dangerous/messed up as they are now.

Whenever there's a high profile horrific kidnapping and murder of a child and people get all up in arms that the adult molester should get the death penalty, I always say the same thing: if you care so much about situations like this, what have you done lately to help prevent it from happening in your own community? It's all fine to scream for blood from our living rooms, but if we really care that much about the victims, what have we each done to try to change that situation? Have you reached out to a troubled child or family in our neighborhood to offer a kind word? Have you reported some abuse to prevent further abuse? Have you tried to help a parent with a difficult child to better parent that child, even in a small way?

We all know some kid that just didn't seem "right", that creeped us out, that we never wanted our kids around. Fine, keep your kids away - I know I'd keep that kid away from my kids. But I would also say something nice to that kid, maybe facilitate getting that kid into an afterschool program or something productive. SOMETHING, small or big, to try to make a difference.

Because it's almost always THOSE kids who continue to be neglected/abused who end up as the famous horrific abusers. There are thousands of less famous abusers who also could have been swayed by a positive adult if someonoe had cared enough about preventing child abuse to see that that kid needed help.

While many victims of childhood abuse go on to never abuse anyone else, a very high % of perpetrators of abuse were child victims. With some of them, an intervention and the right support could have prevented them from ever hurting anyone else.

That is NOT to negate or minimize the horrific things that child abusers do, but it is hypocritical to care about the victims and not care about the child abusers who are children themselves because if the people in that child's life feel the same way you do after an incident like this, they will give up on that kid and that kid is THAT much more likely to become a very unstable and possibly violent adult. His next victim could then be a child I know, and won't we all be so upset and sorry that no one stepped in and cared about him and tried to address HIS issues so that he wouldn't victimize anyone else.


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## SimonMom (May 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aran* 
I have distinct memories from 2 and 3 years old. One is of my much older brother changing my diaper. It wasn't traumatic at all, but he didn't normally do that, and I distinctly remember feeling embarrassed, then relieved to be clean again.

My point is that the OP's DS might remember the incident. If he thought it was a silly game, if he liked it, and if there isn't some clear sign that it was verty seriously not OK, he might well try it out with another kid. How do you give your kid this kind of sign without making him feel like a victim? I don't know. It just points to the need for a therapist that specializes in this.

Also, I agree with PPs that the OP's DS might remember this and as his understanding of the incident's seriousness develops, he might wonder why Mom kept bringing the 11 yo around.

No one has addressed the thoughts of the OP's partner (if he's in the picture). I know my DH would be ruthless in cutting off anyone that did this to one of my DSs, regardless of my feelings. And I think he has a right to do so, as an equal parent. I know if this happened in my family, I'd be visiting my sister alone, forevermore.

I am sorry, OP, that you are mourning that your family can never be the way it once was. I think if it were me, I would feel the same way as you. I hope your sister can help your nephew, but I totally disagree with the PPs that think it is your responsibility to help him or in any way worry about preserving your DS's relationship with him. I am offended on your behalf at those comments! Good luck in an awful situation for your family.

I agree 110% with you


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## SimonMom (May 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *confustication* 
Both boys involved are lucky to have amazing parents who cleary want to do the best they can for them.

You know, I hear loads of sob stories about the abusers' pasts, and the brutal truth is that I really don't care. People make a choice when they become perpetrators. 11 is old enough to know better, he CHOSE to sexually abuse a younger relative. I really don't care, at that point, what the background is, or that he might be rehabilitated or anything else. I care that he isn't ever in a position to cause harm again.

"

yes yes and yes!


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

LROM, I agree with just about every word you have written on this thread, in particular your most recent post. Such a horrible situation...I hope that both boys get the help and support they need and there is some way the OP can remain close with her sister.


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## Mamacitac (Aug 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natural_mama89* 
I'm so sorry about what happened to your DS. However, I am wondering if possibly something happened to this 11-year-old to make HIM think that that was ok behavior.

It's quite normal for 11 yo boys to experiment and play "doctor."
I find it alarming about the age difference. I wouldn't say the nephew is a child predator, but there's something going on. DON'T jump and try to insinuate this 11 yo was molested, please. Jeez.


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## fwlady (May 11, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LROM* 
fwlady/Kymberli, I'm also in the field of child welfare and it sounds to me like maybe you haven't yet come across 2 very common dynamics in child abuse - or maybe no one's called them to your attention yet. StormBride's post is definitely one of them.

<snip>

I don't dispute that the children you talked to were being open and honest. But I do dispute your idea that the fact that they didn't report any abuse and seemed not to remember any means that it is a certainty that they were never abused before.

There is simply waaaaay too much science and professional experience out there that shows children and adults sometimes do not remember because it is their self-preservation kicking in and not allowing them to remember. But that doesn't change the fact that the abuse did actually happen and was discovered later, after initial inquiries.

These men/young men aren't just boys anymore. And, it isn't a question about whether or not they were abused. I believe that sometimes they just aren't. They say that abuse victims are highly female, or the males are underreported. Or they suppress it. But, usually, if they have really been s*xually abused in a way that upset them, they become repulsed by it and would never visit that on someone else. Now, I know the cycle CAN continue, but I think that it is more likely that the men/boys do it because either it is common aka "normal" to them, or they are emulating something done to them, sometimes NOT in their knowledge or memory. Because if they really did have it affect them negatively, again, they probably won't do it to another child.

So, my only point is that if she does make this no big deal, as is the consensus that is what should be done, it may backfire in the end. He may never see it as traumatizing, therefore, emulate it on someone else, even though he has no recollection of it because it was played out as no big deal. I am not saying make a HUGE deal out of it. I am saying that all children should know that his body is his, and others are theirs, and we aren't to be "playing" these type of games (which OP was already going to do). And, then hope for the best, that you aren't thrust into another similar situation, or that your child isn't continuing this behavior on younger children down the line.

The boy that had a big deal made of it (eventually, and cont to do it until it was treated as such) and got the help and intervention, fared the best. The question is, whether one makes the actions a big deal to the victim so that he doesn't repeat the behaviour in the future. KWIM?

My other point is that abusers aren't necassarily abused, and stats state that too.

My other case is this; my adopted mother's father messed with her. He didn't understand when a child says "I love you" that it wasn't s*xual. Down the line, she was 40+ and he was naked at the end of her bed one night after her mother passed.







She never thought that he would mess with her kids, and lo and behold, he messed with one of her daughters before he passed. The granddaughter kept it quiet until adulthood. Now, his grandson (by one of the 2 younger sons, not my mothers) never had any idea about all this going on over the years, as it wasn't often, and not talked about back then. Grandson has a little girl, and was frantic because he was feeling compulsions to be inappropriate with her. He was never abused by the father or grandfather, to his recollection, very good childhood with his parents, nor was the grandfather "into boys". But, here he was, going crazy because he really feared he would hurt his daughter and couldn't figure out why he was having these feelings toward her. (PTL he got help!) The counselor encouraged him to talk to his siblings, aunts, and uncles on both sides about family history, and see if there was any history of abuse in the family, but in a way that wouldn't be too personal for his reasons for seeking help. He obviously confided in my mother. The situation seems unusual, but it seems that he "inherited" these compulsions from his grandfather.

My point is that the adopted boy may have it in his family, but possibly never being exposed himself. JMHO, I am not a professional. Just my experiences, research, etc. And, maybe the stories I know of are just the weird and unusual.

My other real point, is that we have to all be supervigilant. The numbers of children being victimized is going up for a myriad of reasons, or it is just talked about more. Being a victim myself, I thought I could protect my children. I have been put in the position that OP was put in, when WHAM! my child is exposed and the stranger danger and keeping privates private all that, at exactly 3yo (twice), has to be visited. When I thought having taught these things to my older children (after the first incident), and it would trickle down. Or that they were too young at 3yo to introduce these things. I didn't want them to fear ppl or think that everyone is out to touch them. I thought that keeping them with ppl I KNEW were safe, and supervising situations closely when I couldn't be 100% sure, would protect my children. And, IT DIDN'T. Whereas other children, who weren't being as protected could very well have never had this kind of thing happen to them, because of some roll of the dice. I truly empathize with OP, and I pray that we can all keep our children safe.

I am not a pro, I was just sharing my observations. Just because we think things are a certain way, doesn't mean they are, and I wasn't saying that I KNEW any of my theories to be fact. I do know the stories, otherwise, I wouldn't have shared them. Kymberli


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## fwlady (May 11, 2009)

LROM said:


> We all know some kid that just didn't seem "right", that creeped us out, that we never wanted our kids around. Fine, keep your kids away - I know I'd keep that kid away from my kids. But I would also say something nice to that kid, maybe facilitate getting that kid into an afterschool program or something productive. SOMETHING, small or big, to try to make a difference.
> QUOTE]
> 
> And, sometimes it is that charismatic church going boy/man that can lie their way through life, and no one suspects a thing. Stereotypes is what keeps this type of thing going. I would almost keep my kid away from the "goodie goodie" types, because they can be just as much, if not more, dangerous. A victim will report the creepy person. But, the charismatic, close to your family, "no one will believe you" can perpetuate YEARS of abuse and havoc on a child. Okay, I need to stop now. Kymberli


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fwlady* 
These men/young men aren't just boys anymore. And, it isn't a question about whether or not they were abused. I believe that sometimes they just aren't. They say that abuse victims are highly female, or the males are underreported. Or they suppress it. But, usually, if they have really been s*xually abused in a way that upset them, they become repulsed by it and would never visit that on someone else. Now, I know the cycle CAN continue, but I think that it is more likely that the men/boys do it because either it is common aka "normal" to them, or they are emulating something done to them, sometimes NOT in their knowledge or memory. Because if they really did have it affect them negatively, again, they probably won't do it to another child.

What makes you say this? Kids who cried themselves to sleep every night because of a parent's drinking grow up to drink, even when they have kid. Kids who were bullied often turn around and bully someone else. Kids who hated their parents while growing up, because of beatings and physical abuse, turn around and beat their kids. There is no shred of evidence to suggest that if something affects someone negatively, they won't do it to someone else. People's responses to abuse vary...a lot. (I was probably emotionally abusive towards my ex by the end of our marriage, and I _know_ I've had isolated incidents of emotionally abusive comments to dh...as a direct result of being emotionally abused by my ex- picked up some really bad patterns.)

Quote:

So, my only point is that if she does make this no big deal, as is the consensus that is what should be done, it may backfire in the end. He may never see it as traumatizing, therefore, emulate it on someone else, even though he has no recollection of it because it was played out as no big deal. I am not saying make a HUGE deal out of it. I am saying that all children should know that his body is his, and others are theirs, and we aren't to be "playing" these type of games (which OP was already going to do).
I'm losing you. I thought you disagreed about making this a big deal to the OP's ds. But, the advice I quoted is to...not make it a big deal.

Quote:

The boy that had a big deal made of it (eventually, and cont to do it until it was treated as such) and got the help and intervention, fared the best.
But, he was perpetrating sexual abuse, yes? (I may have mixed up the cases you mentioned.) Obviously, it has to be made a big deal to the perpetrator.

Quote:

My other point is that abusers aren't necassarily abused, and stats state that too.
Do you have a link to any stats about this? The only abuser I know who wasn't abused himself was my grandfather, and he suffered severe brain damage.

Quote:

My other case is this; my adopted mother's father messed with her. He didn't understand when a child says "I love you" that it wasn't s*xual. Down the line, she was 40+ and he was naked at the end of her bed one night after her mother passed.







She never thought that he would mess with her kids, and lo and behold, he messed with one of her daughters before he passed. The granddaughter kept it quiet until adulthood. Now, his grandson (by one of the 2 younger sons, not my mothers) never had any idea about all this going on over the years, as it wasn't often, and not talked about back then. Grandson has a little girl, and was frantic because he was feeling compulsions to be inappropriate with her. He was never abused by the father or grandfather, to his recollection, very good childhood with his parents, nor was the grandfather "into boys". But, here he was, going crazy because he really feared he would hurt his daughter and couldn't figure out why he was having these feelings toward her. (PTL he got help!) The counselor encouraged him to talk to his siblings, aunts, and uncles on both sides about family history, and see if there was any history of abuse in the family, but in a way that wouldn't be too personal for his reasons for seeking help. He obviously confided in my mother. The situation seems unusual, but it seems that he "inherited" these compulsions from his grandfather.
I can't follow this very well. Are you saying that the grandfather messed with his daughter when she was a child, but she didn't think he'd ever mess with her kids? Honestly, I can't see any way in which a grown man could fail to understand that "I love you" from a child isn't sexual, and _not_ pass some kind of screwy legacy to his sons, even if he didn't molest them. You can't grow up with that kind of worldview, without having it affect your own.

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My other real point, is that we have to all be supervigilant. The numbers of children being victimized is going up for a myriad of reasons, or it is just talked about more.
I've never seen any evidence that it's going up, to be honest. Nobody talked about it when I was a kid...but it was still going on all over the place. My case never made it to a therapist or any kind of case report (he had 4 victims...almost certainly no more than that, as he was house bound). Most of my friends who were abused never told anyone, except their own friends, either. It just was _not_ talked about.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

OP: Sorry - I did it again. I'm going to bow out, so I don't start talking theories and abstracts again. That's not what your thread is about.


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

For those advocating highly scrutinized visits as a viable option: this is not the way in which normal interaction with a cousin takes place. Children are going to sense this, so why go that route? Not to mention the enormous strain continued contact places on the OP.

A mother need not be apologetic about the fact that her loyalty lies with her child. OP


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## Beene (May 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *denimtiger* 
Or, because at three he thinks it's funny and has no idea of the reality of the situation. But if he remembers this incident when he's 14, I'm quite sure he'll have a different outlook.

If someone told you now that a much older cousin had your pants down and was making oral contact with your genitals when you were three years old, would you think you were not in any way a victim?

Why would somebody tell me that now unless they wished me harm? If at 3 he thinks it is funny and then is told it is not and gets proper attention to make sure there is no residual here, why wouldn't he just continue being a kid? Why is it assumed he will be scarred for life and reminded of this again and again? It doesn't make sense.


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## Beene (May 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *confustication* 
You know, I hear loads of sob stories about the abusers' pasts, and the brutal truth is that I really don't care. People make a choice when they become perpetrators. 11 is old enough to know better, he CHOSE to sexually abuse a younger relative. I really don't care, at that point, what the background is, or that he might be rehabilitated or anything else. I care that he isn't ever in a position to cause harm again.

This seems insensitive and cruel. "Sob stories"?


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *confustication* 
You know, I hear loads of sob stories about the abusers' pasts, and the brutal truth is that I really don't care. People make a choice when they become perpetrators. 11 is old enough to know better, he CHOSE to sexually abuse a younger relative. I really don't care, at that point, what the background is, or that he might be rehabilitated or anything else. I care that he isn't ever in a position to cause harm again.
."

I totally agree..... IF the abuser is an adult. But, he IS JUST a kid himself. At possibly the worst age to be a kid. He has the past abuse and his past issues, PLUS all these hormones. He's only 11. I honestly think, I could forgive my nephew for doing this. I'd never trust him again though.


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## SimonMom (May 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Beene* 
Why would somebody tell me that now unless they wished me harm? If at 3 he thinks it is funny and then is told it is not and gets proper attention to make sure there is no residual here, why wouldn't he just continue being a kid? Why is it assumed he will be scarred for life and reminded of this again and again? It doesn't make sense.









: Well, I'm confused as to why you wouldn't want to know. I would want to know if something like that happened to me! It's part of my life history! I'd hate to be kept in the dark about something like that! Especially since his mom would know, his aunt, his cousin, everyone but him! That makes no sense.


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## SimonMom (May 19, 2004)

OP, I do think you should tell your son that what his cousin did was wrong. He should know. Hopefully there will never be a next time, but what if someone else tries something like this, maybe then he can use his voice and say "no".


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## Zenful (Jun 27, 2009)

I was molested by my older brother when I was about 3 years old...I felt very ashamed about it at the time. I think if my parents had been there to say the sort of thing you said to your son this would have helped tremendously in terms of me being able to easily move on.


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## denimtiger (Jan 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Beene* 
Why would somebody tell me that now unless they wished me harm? If at 3 he thinks it is funny and then is told it is not and gets proper attention to make sure there is no residual here, why wouldn't he just continue being a kid? Why is it assumed he will be scarred for life and reminded of this again and again? It doesn't make sense.


So, let me see if I'm understanding your point. What I'm hearing you say is that since the child is three, it is best to assume he will not have even vague memories about this that he will quetion? Instead, you can get him some attention to "make sure there is no residual," and then pretend it never happened, never mention anything related to the incident again, (at least not where he can hear it), and let him just continue being a kid?

I don't think anyone is going to advocate framing a picture of the incident and hanging it over his bed. But to proceed in a way that assumes he's NEVER going to hear about it or remember it or question it? Beyond unrealistic, it's almost deceitful to try to keep something like that from someone permanently.

Kids get old enough to get embarrassed about stories of themselves in the bath, or peeing on people, or having their diapers changed -- even if some of those incidents were hilarious to them at the time. It's not safe or fair to assume that a victim of molestation is incapable of remembering it, or that the memories of it could become much darker things once they become old enough to have another viewpoint of what happened.

If it's handled right, I doubt he will be scarred for life. That doesn't mean the OP should feel badly about keeping her son away from his abuser.

I also highly doubt that a three year old will be scarred for life by quietly losing contact with a cousin who is eight years his senior. Seriously? Cousins with that kind of age difference are separated from each other ALL THE TIME. Cousins who are close in age, too. My dd LOVES her cousin (five years older) who comes to stay with us for a week or two in the summer.
They have a wonderful time and play together and live as closely as siblings for those two weeks. Neither one of them experiences any kind of trauma when the time is up and they're separated again, usually for an entire year.

She loves her nearby cousins who are close in age, too. Birthdays, holidays, dinners out, days at great-grandmas, the works. But if we were really busy and just spent less time together, and she never really saw them again, I can't imagine that that trauma would be anywhere near her knowing or finding out that I made her spend time with someone who molested her.

Is a three-year-old likely to remember an event like molestation, yes. Likely to remember how family dynamics were different with aunts and cousins when he was three? Not really. That is more traumatic for the OP, who is an adult, and has had hopes and dreams about the boys being raised together.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seawind* 
For those advocating highly scrutinized visits as a viable option: this is not the way in which normal interaction with a cousin takes place. Children are going to sense this, so why go that route? Not to mention the enormous strain continued contact places on the OP.

A PP gave very good ideas about how such supervised visiting could occur (the movie and restaurant ideas)...indeed, there are countless parents of adopted older children who have sexual abuse issues who LIVE like this (with other children in the home even!), on a daily basis. Some parents who have a sexually perp'ing child in the home, and also are parenting other children, have very clear rules about no closed bedroom doors, only one person in the bathroom at a time, alarms on bedroom doors so they can hear if a child gets up in the night, definitely no tents or blanket forts or any such thing, and for many kids "line of sight" supervision. it can be very stressful to live this way 100 percent of the time, but for the OP...we are talking about situations like family bday parties or get togethers. It would of course be on the nephew's mom to keep her child in sight 100 percent of the time, and he needs to know and follow the rules, and the OP could of course also keep a watchful eye out.

And while her child is very young, i dont think he is TOO young to understand some simple explanations about the cousin...that the cousin has some issues that he is working on controlling and that we all need to help him....therefore play will be supervised so that the adults can help cousin remember the "rules"...and empower the younger child to know that certain actions (like "peepee kisses") are NOT ok, and to make sure to come to you right away if they occur.

I totally get that the OP is disgusted, upset, and outraged. I guess i get her basically saying she wants to cut off her nephew completely and that the whole family is "ruined"...although i REALLY hope that with some passage of time she will see that its not necessarily true, that there is a way to go on and work through this situation, WITH her nephew. It does really really bother me to read that all the sister's effort was "wasted", but i pray that is just coming from a place of hurt right now and not how either mom truly feels about the nephew.

And also, fwiw, its very common for older adopted children who have abuse in their past, to have this sort of thing crop up around puberty...they have all these feelings and not sure what to do with them. I also think that while the age difference is disturbing, it takes less significance (for lack of a better term) when we are talking about an emotionally and socially immature 11 yr who may have some dev. delays (not talking necessarily cognitive delays), who may have little access to friends his own age and who is very close to this young cousin. It *may* be a little different than a kid at school who has a whole gang of same age playmates but chooses the vulnerable kindergartner to abuse.

I think its an excellent idea for the OP, her sister, and a therapist to sit down together and come up with a way to handle the relationships from here on out, without causing further damage to anyone.


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## knucklehead (Mar 12, 2008)

d


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## smeisnotapirate (Aug 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *knucklehead* 
Wow, my head is reeling! I certainly appreciate everyone who took the time to write an opinion (even the less than sensitive ones). I still have a lot to process and figure out.

First I appreciate the support and validation of my feelings regarding this situation. It is still raw and so I appreciate those that can understand why I'm not overwhelmingly occupied with my nephews feelings right now. My sister's definitely! I feel horrible for her and can't imagine what she is going through. In many ways I know this is harder on her than me by far.

My son is acting completely normal. I have taken him to a few playgroups (supervised of course) and I see no difference in behavior with other children. I know it is **** early but I am hopeful. One thing I am still confused about is how much to talk about it. At the time of the incident I told him that no one should touch him and vice versa. The next day I went to a bookstore and bought a book on bad touch/good touch. My DH and I read it to him with a few other innocuous books. I didn't want him to feel like there was a spotlight on him. I reiterated that no one should touch his privates and vice versa. I told him his privates were his and it was OK for him to touch them. I also told him that he could talk to mommy or daddy about anything at all.

I don't really want to focus on it too much more. I didn't ask him any direct questions about the incident other than the few at the time it happened. I'm having a hard time because I do believe for my son it was experimental play and actually funny. I want to keep it that way but now he knows that he isn't supposed to engage in that behavior anymore. I don't want him shamed beyond that. If I focus too much on "what your cousin did was WRONG" I will turn him into a victim in his own head. I want this to go away for him. But then I start worrying about some posters opinions that if he thinks this was OK and just play then he will in turn do it to another child. I'm really not sure about this. If this took place with another 3 1/2 year old would that mean that both of them would become perpetrators?? Don't most kids experiment and move on?

As far as him seeing his cousin again I have been mulling this over ALL DAY LONG and at this point even though I would like to strangle my nephew I know for my son complete severance of ties would be more difficult for him to handle than what went down. If I never let him see him again I would have to explain on some level why. And my goal is to try and get this whole thing out of his head. The whole family would be fractured. This would devastate my son. Am I ready at this point in time? Hell no! Can I see maybe sitting around a table at Thanksgiving with a LOT of rules in place. Possibly. My son or daughter will never ever be alone with my nephew AGAIN. Can I sit in the same room while birthday presents are being opened with my nephew seated between my sister and BIL. I think so. There will be limited interaction, very limited. This of course is all dependent on the therapists' assessments.

I am just going to start taking my son to a lot of playdates with children his own age and slowly planting the seed in his head that his cousin is busy a lot with home school and wants to play with older boys his own age. I can remember being told when I was little that I couldn't play with my sister and her friends all the time because my sister wanted to play alone without her little sister tagging along. I survived. This is what I will tell my son.

I wanted to clarify that I am only thinking about what is best for my son. I am going to give it some time to make sure my son is all right before this moves forward. I want him to have plenty of time to talk to me or DH or act out if anything is bothering him inside. I know kids deal with things on their own time in their own way. I don't want my hope for everything to be OK to get in the way of what ever needs to happen organically. And maybe (please God!) everything is OK.

If I thought for a minute that he was traumatized or scared of his cousin in any way shape or form I would completely isolate him from him and explain that he was victimized and it wasn't his fault. I would never want my son to think that I didn't protect him. I would skin a lion with my teeth for that boy. I hate that I don't know 100% what to do. I want to know right now that everything will be OK. This is my prayer.

I know this has turned into a very long thread but if anyone has any more advice it is greatly appreciated.









It sounds like you're doing a wonderful job handling this with the most extreme sensitivity.

Only one thing - you might not want to add "he wants friends his own age." I was told that, too, and hurt a lot - enough that I still remember. I think "he's busy" will suffice, and I think giving him LOTS of friends his own age is wonderful.








mama. You're doing great. I'll pray for you guys.


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## Starflower (Sep 25, 2004)

OP - I just read this entire thread and your update. It sounds like you are doing things right for your situation. I wish you and your family healing and peace.


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## Beene (May 19, 2009)

I agree! You're doing a great job and things within your family will only continue improving with so much love and attention from you and DH. I think there is so much love there that you will not be steered wrong in your instincts and will contonue to raise a healthy boy!


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## MomOnDaEdge (Nov 10, 2007)

TBH I've come back and read and reread this thread over and over. For me, and I know I'm not standing in your shoes, this is what stands out:

Your nephew has HAD to learn this from somewhere. 11 year olds just don't normally (and yes, there are exceptions but I don't think it's the case here since you don't mention any other abnormal acting out). Be it unsupervised internet usage, learned behaivor from someone else, a magazine or any number of places that his parents were not aware of.

I know you are hyper protective of your own LO at this point, and with good reason. But can you maybe take a step back and help your sister in finding the root of the problem? It sounds like she is just as much, if not more, freaked out about the situation and could use some support as well. While I have no insight to your family dynamics, cutting her and her child off cold turkey doesn't seem to help anyone. She sounds shamed and humilitated and very lost in how to handle this with HER child.

Not going to say that ya'll should ever leave them unsupervised again, nor downplaying what has happened, but maybe puttting yourself in her shoes for a minute and all she is going through may go a long way in healing this. Your family is obviously close to her's and in supporting her in getting to the root of this behavior might just well help heal the pain and anger your feeling while getting your nephew the help he needs kwim?


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I read your update and I think you're doing an amazing job, really.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

I think what I would do is to keep them entirely apart for right now. Then I would ask the sister to have the nephew's therapist make an assessment as to whether it would be advisable for them to have contact at all; and if so, how that should take place. People here can speculate as to how much of a danger your nephew is or isn't to your son, how much separation there should be, etc. but his therapist is in a much better position to figure that out.

However, as to the "all the love was for nothing" angle, I agree with whoever said that if it weren't for all the love, he might have done much worse by now than he has done.


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## GoestoShow (Jul 15, 2009)

.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

OP I am just so so so impressed with how you're continuing to think this through and handle it. I am someone who also really likes to know *exactly* what the right thing to do is and it is SO frustrating when something as important as this is so hard to figure out in terms of what the right thing to do for your family is!

So I commend you for keeping such a level head (even when internally you felt like screaming and trashing the place!) and continuing to just try and try and try to think this through.

Sounds to me like your steps between the last update and the most recent are great. You're watching your son, you're trying not to make too much of a deal out of this while also making sure he understands going forward what's ok and what's not. You've checked out how he feels about the incident without making him feel like he's being interrogated. And most importantly of all: you're maintaining normalcy in the rest of his life and watching how he does. And loving him and your daughter loads, of course!









You already know how I feel about contact with the nephew so you know I think your plan sounds exactly right: keep dealing with your own son, counseling for you (and are you thinking of going with your sis and son, or with your sis alone? I wasn't clear on your counseling plan), and for your son's benefit trying to figure out some safe contact with his cousin, even if it's greatly reduced and ALWAYS supervised. As you've read there are a lot of different opinions about that, but in both my personal and professional experience (and given the details of what happened here and the circumstances and your sister taking responsibility for her son) given all that if I was your caseworker I would absolutely approve of contact between your son and his nephew as long as it's supervised. I would agree because I've seen how it can hurt a child more to have a relationship that's important to him severed completely, no matter how sensitive/good/creative the explanation is. Would he get over it at some point and be fine? Probably yes. But just like the poster who still remembers being told an older sibling/relative wanted friends their own age and the sting of that, it makes so much sense to allow some contact if it can be done safely and your son seems to benefit from it.

Honestly, as great a mom as you sound and as hard as your sister is trying to help her son, I'd say that relationship between your son and nephew - if you let them keep contact - will be one of the BEST supervised relationships ever!

You're super brave and a wonderful parent. There are so many wonderful parents here, I am so glad this place exists. And I'm not only talking about the mommies here I agree with!


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

OP, you are handling this so beautifully. I'm glad your son seems to be doing well so far.


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## salmontree (Mar 29, 2004)

I haven't read many of the replies on this except the OP's updates but I felt the need to share my experience with a very similar situation.

When my son was nearly 4 we were temporarily staying with my MIL and her 10 yo grandson (my husband's nephew) that she was raising on her own. His mother had not been in his life since he was a baby due to severe mental illness. One day my son told me that his cousin had given him a toy and that he had to play "the penis game" to get it. When I asked him to tell me how to play the penis game he said that his cousin asked my son to take his pants off and sit on his cousin's lap. He added that his cousin had taken his pants off too. Since there was no witness to this there was a lot of family drama because my nephew denied it at first and my MIL seemed inclined to believe him. She seemed to think that I had maybe led my son with my questioning. I didn't though. I was very careful to keep my questions vague and I had no doubt that my son was telling the truth. He didn't just make up "the penis game" out of the blue.

Later that evening after my MIL and her grandson were alone she eventually got him to tell the truth and he confessed that there had been touching and nothing else. (This happened while they were looking at old toys in a bedroom with the door open and I was down the hall in the living room.)

My husband and I were angry, hurt, frightened and generally more traumatized by the whole thing than I think my son was. We talked about inappropriate touching and made sure he understood that we were happy he told us about the incident. We were careful to hide the full extent of our anger at his cousin from our son because we were afraid to make a too big a deal out of it. My husband was especially devastated because he had been looking forward to being a big part of his nephew's life since we had just moved back to town after being gone for a few years and now he didn't feel safe bringing him around our son.

It wasn't a big deal keeping the two of them apart for a few months since our son wasn't accustomed to spending much time with his cousin. My immediate reaction was to want to keep them separated forever but that would have been too destructive to the extended family. They never spend any time alone but holiday and birthday events are now okay.

The incident happened about four years ago and it took almost two years for my anger and pain over the incident to subside substantially. My son appears to have no ill effects from the incident today and I'm able to now look at my nephew without disgust. He's 15 and struggling with a lot of issues and my MIL has grown distant from my husband so we don't see him much anyway. He's been in counseling on and off ever since that incident. I think that the experience was probably more traumatic to my nephew in that it probably made him feel like he was a "bad" kid and that there was something wrong with him. He has issues with self esteem and thinking that since his mom went "crazy" that he will too.

I guess I just wanted to say that in all likelihood your son will move beyond this and be just fine. It sounds like you are handling it very well. I can sympathize with the sense of not knowing what to do and the heartache you are feeling. It's awful. Time will heal.


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby* 
My main question is: What is happening in regards to future contact with his cousin? I'm not insinuating that they should never see each other again, although that may be one answer, but how you and your sister feel about it and agree to deal with it, and how it's explained to your son. This kind of stuff can really put a strain on family relationships.

I agree. I have a nephew that is handicapped and we believe he was sexually abused as a young child. He once grabbed at his cousins private area when they were playing in a bedroom alone and both were around 10/11 years old and the cousin immediately told his mom (my sister) and myself and they never left them alone when we had get togethers after that. It did cause issues between my sisters but what else could my sister do? It upset her son and she felt she had to say something.

I would be worried that this 11 yr old has been sexually abused or maybe he's just curious. Being alone ever again wouldn't be tolerated if I were in this position. I think in the future when they are around one another they would never be out of my sight and definitely not in another room or under blankets totally alone. An 11 yr old child definitely knows what they are doing and can plan that sort of thing out in advance and just because the 11 yr old wants to experiment doesn't make it okay to do it with an innocent, unknowing toddler.







very sad situation. I would hope that this older child has had someone talk to him about his behavior?


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## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamacitac* 
It's quite normal for 11 yo boys to experiment and play "doctor."

But an 11 yr old is 5th/6th grade in a typical school. I've met kids this age and experimenting is one thing, but doing it with a totally innocent toddler is a whooole other thing. And fwiw, I've never met a kid that old that played doctor, even when I was a young child in the 70's. I think 11 yrs old is stretching it a bit to say this child is totally innocent in his actions. It's totally normal for a boy (or girl) to want to be curious about their sexuality at this age but he knew what he was doing when he took advantage of an innocent and unknowing child. That does not make it okay at all IMO.


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## Bookworm715 (Dec 31, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LROM* 
I respect your opinion, but there is a MAJOR red flag in her nephew's reaction.

Harmless exploratory play carries no guilt or sense of wrongdoing with it. Her nephew clearly knew he was doing something he shouldn't do.

AND... 11 and 3 1/2 is too large an age difference for "healthy exploration". If this family knew that was going on and child welfare found out about it, a case would absolutely be opened because it is not age appropriate at all in this case.

We all have a right to our opinions (and it seems like we all agree that OP was right not to make it a big deal with her own son) but my opinion continues to be that if no one questions the nephew on who/what/where/when re: his behavior, it's very very possible a child molester is out there that won't get caught because no one said anything.

The newphew's guilt/sense of wrongdoing is not to be ignored.

This. I wouldn't be terribly concerned about OP's son, as he is very young and didn't sense that there was anything 'wrong' or 'dirty' about it. It's very typical for kids to 'play doctor' just out of curiosity- I think OP did a great job of staying calm and removing him from the grown-up conversation.

But the nephew's reaction seems very suspect, unfortunately.


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