# What is wrong with Americans???



## Marg of Arabia

O.K., I know polls are mostly worthless, BUT HOW THE HELL COULD BUSH BE STRENGTHENING IN ANY POLLS????? What a mystery. What is wrong with my country??? Please tell me!!!







:

Quote:

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Despite a week of negative headlines about how his administration handled the threat of terrorism before September 11, 2001, President Bush's political position against Sen. John Kerry has strengthened, according to a new CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll
Among likely voters surveyed, 51 percent said they would choose Bush for president, while 47 percent said they would vote for Kerry, within the margin of error of plus or minus 4 percentage points. (Full story)

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...ain/index.html

Read the above and weep!









Of course of the people polled they are all registered voters!! I believe there are a huge amount of people who do not normally vote who are not being counted in these polls. The majority of these new voters are going to come out against Bush!


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## gardeningmom

I think it a bit rude to consider that there is something wrong with us conservative voters. I think most people can see through the whole Clarke profitering , politicising book endeavor. Or perhaps, people don't like Kerry or his track record. Wouldn't it be rude of me to ask you what was wrong with you because of your political stance?







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## muse

Quote:

_Originally posted by Marg of Arabia_
*What is wrong with my country??? Please tell me!!!







:
*
oh, where to start?....







:

isolationism. capitalism. militarism. xenophobia. greed.

i could go on of course.

gardeningmom, i think there IS something wrong with voting for someone who has launched an illegal war, amongst other things. that's just my opinion of course, but i don't think it's rude to question support of a law breaking warmonger.


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## Joyce in the mts.

Here it is in a nutshell, Marge...I have heard this repeatedly and it is the most lazy, fear-based thinking I have ever heard in my life:

"Well, you know what you got (referring to Bush); but you don't know what you'll get (referring to the alternative)."

THAT is what is wrong with America!

No one stops to think because when they begin to question, one question leads to another and that gets frightening to them.

Americans are like abused women: preferring to take the abuse because the abuser also makes the abused feel protected. It's crazy and insane. It's taken advantage of by the right wing constantly! (And then Americans weep in private about what has happened to the country and blame everyone else but those responsible including themselves)

Vote the bums out! Get our country back! And don't forget that we have alot of congresscritters to boot also, in both the House and the Senate!

I am sick of this righteous indignation crap, to be honest with you, and am done being oh so polite about it.

Mods, delete my post if it crosses the line.

Joyce in the mts.


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## Lucky Charm

Marg, i wouldnt put too much faith in a poll. I feel polls arent necessarily on the "pulse" of this country. I mean, how many people do they poll, 500, 1000?

Personally, i dont think anyone has anything locked up as far as the election goes. Even if the polls said Bush was ahead by say 20 points, i wouldnt believe it until it was actually happening, and the same goes for Kerry.


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## Shonahsmom

Why are conservatives so offended by attacks on Bush??

I genuinely believe that the things that Bush has done are so far beyond liberal vs. conservative issues.

Bush might represent Republicans in his ad campaigns and his speeaches, but he represent crazy and just plain evil in his actions.

Conservatives who are still supporting Bush WAKE UP!!!!!!! You are not REQUIRED to follow a leader solely because he is in the political party that you identify yourself with or have historically voted in. There is no law. You are allowed to look at the individual instead of blindly supporting someone because they are "Republican".

Its making me nuts. The only people it makes sense to vote for Bush, and I mean Bush specifically so do not give me a partisan argument, are those earning over $500,000 a year.

The only other argument could be abortion.. are you willing to let the whole country continue on its journey into the crapper over this one issue?


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## dado

well, the first thing wrong with americans is their seeming inability to do math: a four point margin where the error on either side is four points is not a "lead", it's a dead heat.


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## dado

Quote:

_Originally posted by gardeningmom_
*...Clarke profitering...*
so it's rude to suggest there might be something wrong with your politics but it's not rude for you to say derogatory things about clarke?

it's like there is no end to your moral relativism, lol.


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## Joyce in the mts.

Polls may hide a skunk!

....Many times polls are taken including the opinions of adults, but precisely how many of those adults are registered voters?

So while the figures may appear to reflect some overwhelming truth, it's often DUBIOUS truth.

Does that muddy the waters even more?







Joyce in the mts


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## Mothra

These polls are crap when a race is so close. I read that, too, and it didn't even give me pause.

I did political surveys for a while in high school. They are not scientific surveys, they only represent the opinions of those who choose to answer the surveys. They can show trends, but only in the populations that choose to answer the surveys. In a situation like this, where the gap is narrower than the margin of error, they don't tell us much that we don't already know-- the race is very, very close right now.


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## Marg of Arabia

Quote:

Of course of the people polled they are all registered voters!! I believe there are a huge amount of people who do not normally vote who are not being counted in these polls. The majority of these new voters are going to come out against Bush!
I am quoting myself!!
















But, I truly DO believe the above to be true!!!


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## Joyce in the mts.

Marg, your right...I read the fine print on the poll and indeed they were registered voters.

Joyce in the mts.


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## Super Pickle

Well, you know, about half of us are below average and roughly half of us are above average







(I know dado loves my math)


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## dado

lol! i wasn't referring to you, my apologies if that is how it came across. i was referring to the reporter who make a living misrepresenting like that.


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## Super Pickle

Oh no, dado, I didn't take it personally...I was actually making fun of myself---I was joking that the polls show a close to 50-50 split, so half of us (the above average half) must be voting for one guy and the other half for the other guy (which is not good math). Just a joke! It's impossible to convey tone and nuance on these dang computers!


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## guestmama9924

I wish I knew. I don't have any logical or clever disection of the American brain that is for sure.







T
I will share with you though, that last year when I travelled to Europe/GB for the first time , ALONE, to meet up with my dad, that Americans stand out like a stinkin' sore thumb. NO, its not the Nike's, or the confused search for fast food, or the accent. It is the OBNOXIOUS presumption that anyone freakin' cares about the US. I was in an upscale store, in the ladies lounge. I was in the stall,







and I could hear in a twangy southern US accent " Hey Yall! Im from Texas, ya know- like President Bush, and I never seen such beautiful fixtures in a public bathroom....blah blah blah uke
She was loud, everyone one just staring at her. I made my way out of the stall, and in my best spanish accent, faked English and asked someone to excuse me so I could get to the sink. Since I have a southern accent, I wasn't about to let it slip and have some kind of hillbilly reunion with the Texan.
Same, in the elevator in Paris, a group of quiet strangers and one nervous chatting old American lady.








I gotta work on my Spanish more....


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## sleeping queen

Here is a wonderful article on what is wrong with America!Deficit in Decency This comes from a democrat.


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## Hilary Briss

God is dead. Get over it already.







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## aussiemum

May I suggest a compulsory voting system? (like Australia, of course, where else would I get such a great idea from?







) I think you actually get a more honest representation of public opinion that way.

And Keysmama, your story reminds me of my own 'ugly American overseas' experience. DH & I were in Belgium, staying in this little pension, & a number of the rooms were occupied by American tourists. Apparently (& I know this because the whole guesthouse could hear them- all 4 floors of it!







: ) they felt they had been overcharged for a bottle of wine at dinner the previous night. And they were going on, en masse, about how Europeans will rip you off, & we should have argued the bill, & John wasn't hard enough on them, he should have complained to the manager, & on & on & on......







I came across one of the ladies in the stairwell later (& she was friendly, no doubt) but I just put on the thickest northern English accent I could manage & said hello politely back to her. Thank goodness I passed for English! The English chap I had been talking to knew full well I was American & was cracking up, trying not to give me away (bless him).

sleeping queen, I'm trying really hard not to take that link personally, because I think you are probably a very nice person even if we do have different points of view on things. But quite frankly, I don't care whether it's a democrat or a republican making comments like that speech- what makes anyone think that just because I don't have a Christian religious approach to life, then I somehow have a 'deficit of decency' in my life?







I happen to think that I am a very decent human being.


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## dingogirl

Perhaps Kerry is behind (assuming he's actually behind) because he's basically pulling a Dukakis.

"The denial, John Kerry, that you are a liberal is almost impossible to reconcile," wrote Cronkite. "It isn't just that 'The National Journal' has branded you a liberal. So has the liberal lobbying group the Americans For Democratic Action. Senator, check your own Web site. If 1988 taught us anything, it is that a candidate who doesn't look the courage of his convictions cannot hope to convince the nation he should be given its leadership."

And then there are the flip-flops on various issues. Some people don't care for that.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2096540/


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## Snowy Owl

It's very interesting to see how the rising gasoline prices are 'fuelling' the battle between Bush and Kerry.

Quote:

"The United States of America can't drill its way out of this predicament," Kerry said. "We have to invent our way out of it." Kerry said research into alternative fuels would boost the economy, create jobs and reduce American dependence on imported oil.

Bush, meanwhile, visited the battleground state of Wisconsin, where he said Democrats want to raise taxes on gasoline.

"I think it would be wrong," Bush told the crowd, where he touted a "growing" economy. "I think it would be damaging to the economy, not positive to the economy."
What many people do not know is that while there remains plenty of oil in the world, the 'easy' oil has been greatly depleted and the demand is increasing faster than the supply ever will. In about five years, the supply will start to decrease. Until now it has increased to meet the demand, as well as being subsidized by tax money. That is why it so abnormally cheap in North America.
To answer the question 'What is wrong with Americans', apart from the obvious, immensely powerful oil interests have your country by the balls. Their hey-day is coming to a rapid close and they are fighting tooth and nail to stay on top. That is why control of the Middle East is so important.
The oil, the oil, the oil.
This is very obvious to anyone who cares to look, unfortunately, America has also perfected the art of propaganda. It's a loaded word, but accurate. That is why so many continue to support Bush. Look at all the silly campaign ads, the flag waving in the background, heart-tugging images, surging music... all that stuff actually works!

By the way, I hear y'all are real friendly and I can't wait to live among you!
(I think I will keep my tape-recorder and notebook with me at all times, to document the facsinating, primitive culture of the local inhabitants...)


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## dado

gas prices in the US are rising because the Bushistas are running a weak dollar policy. it's that simple. the price of a barrel of oil in europe is exactly where it was 2 years ago, the rise in gas prices here exactly mirrors the fall in the greenback's value.

there's no free lunch out there...

we should start a thread on oil, lots of myths on that one. there is more oil on this planet than we know what to do with AND it is a renewable resource, constantly replenshing inside the mantle.


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## oceanbaby

Sleeping Queen, do you read anything besides www.defeatliberalism.com, and www.conservativetruth.org?

Can't any of the Bush supporters here find links to articles from, oh I don't know, the New York Times, CNN, or somewhere that at least pretends to be unbiased?

Links from propoganda sites are about as educational as links to barney.com.


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## guestmama9924

Quote:

*Links from propoganda sites are about as educational as links to barney.com.*
I happen to think Barney.com is VERY informative, unbiased, diverse, unique and a darn happy place to go







:


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## oceanbaby

Ha ha - when I wrote that I was thinking to myself that I wasn't really being fair to Barney, but ds was hanging on me and I didn't have time to think of anything else!


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## applejuice

Quote:

What is wrong with Americans?
There are about four threads on this forum asking this same question in various ways.

This may disappoint you, but ...

...The answer is people have the right to be wrong...

...People have the right to disagree with you also,...

...Maybe you should just get over it.


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## Marg of Arabia

Quote:

Maybe you should just get over it.
Thanks for the advice!









But, I can't get over it! I have to live here.........


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## Snowy Owl

Quote:

_Originally posted by dado_
*
we should start a thread on oil, lots of myths on that one. there is more oil on this planet than we know what to do with AND it is a renewable resource, constantly replenshing inside the mantle.*
Do you really believe that? I know many do, there is a lot of misinformation out there. Just enough to keep people doubtful and complacent. The same story for climate change... don't even bother pointing me to 'climate change is a myth' sites, it's a waste of time! Of course political factors cause short term spikes in the cost of fuel...but what's been happening is a steady climb. Also, Europeans have been paying much higher fuel prices for years because they do not subsidize it the way we do in North America. Europe: teensy little cars. America: Hummmers and SUVs. Not for long!

So I started a thread called 'the end of cheap oil' in 'activism'.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...hreadid=130006
I welcome discussion on this matter!


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## aussiemum

Quote:

there is more oil on this planet than we know what to do with AND it is a renewable resource, constantly replenshing inside the mantle.
Hey Dado, where'd you get that one from? This is the first time in my life I've ever heard of oil being referred to as a renewable resource. Ever. Seriously. Other than maybe vegetable oil.

*and I'm sorry, I'll have to wait a few days to check the boards again, so if you do respond I'm not ignoring you, 'kay?


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## Hilary Briss

Quote:

The answer is people have the right to be wrong...
Not when people die as a result.


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## dado

Quote:

_Originally posted by Snowy Owl_
*Do you really believe that? I know many do, there is a lot of misinformation out there.*
it's not misinformation, and the more we learn about the biological origins of life in general, the more direct evidence is being found to support the abiogenic - ie, renewable - origin of oil. the most obvious example are the bacteria found in the volcanic vents in deep sea beds, which relates back to the growing understanding that the origins of life were probably under the crust, and that sea life came considerably later.

it even ties into Mars: those "byproducts" that may indicate there was once life? those are nothing less than the percusors to complex hydrocarbons - ie, oil.

the major US-based proponent of this is Thomas Gold, a cosmologist at Cornell. not coincidentally, he is the scientist behind the greatest oil finds of the past century. proof in the pudding, so to speak.







this stuff is taught as everyday science in other parts of the world, it is only in america the myth of oil from rotting dino flesh persists.


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## Joyce in the mts.

FOX NEWS PUNDIT BRIT HUME TELLS FAMILIES OF DEAD AMERICAN SOLDIERS TO "JUST GET OVER IT"

* C O U N T E R B I A S . C O M E X C L U S I V E *

Brit Hume, a conservative news anchor on the right-wing Fox News Channel, continued his staunch support for the Republican Party when he told critics of President Bush--including families of American soldiers killed in his Iraq war--to "just get over it", on the 28 March 2004 edition of Fox News Sunday.

http://www.counterbias.com/news004.html

Course, then wouldn't any criminal agree that victims getting over it, makes it infinitely easier to keep commiting crimes with impunity?

Joyce in the mts.


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## merpk

Quote:

_*... by dado*
... the first thing wrong with americans is their seeming inability to do math: a four point margin where the error on either side is four points is not a "lead", it's a dead heat._

Man, I was gonna say that. Ya' beat me to it. Bummed, fer sure.


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## merpk

Quote:

_*... by dingogirl*
... Perhaps Kerry is behind (assuming he's actually behind) because he's basically pulling a Dukakis ..._










Never. Inconceivable that he could *ever* wear wing-tips with blue jeans. Not possible.

I hope.










:LOL

Sorry, that was silly, I know, but Dukakis was that kinda guy ... silly ...

:LOL


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## Snowy Owl

Quote:

_Originally posted by dado_
*this stuff is taught as everyday science in other parts of the world, it is only in america the myth of oil from rotting dino flesh persists.*
Maybe we're mixing issues here.
That is very interesting, I didn't know people believed that.
I could say more but don't want to discuss it in this thread!


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## Snowy Owl

Quote:

_Originally posted by applejuice_
*There are about four threads on this forum asking this same question in various ways.

This may disappoint you, but ...

...The answer is people have the right to be wrong...

...People have the right to disagree with you also,...

...Maybe you should just get over it.*
Is this, by any chance from someone who supports the Bush governement and therefore opposes people's right to be wrong and to disagree (i.e gay marriage, abortion)?
Or just a reminder not to get so pissed off?


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## Marg of Arabia

Quote:

Is this, by any chance from someone who supports the Bush governement and therefore opposes people's right to be wrong and to disagree (i.e gay marriage, abortion)?

BINGO!!!!!


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## sleeping queen

Aussiemom, the link wasn't supposed to be taken personal. It is mostly food for though and an insight to how conservatives view things. I find the break down of the family and the erosion of morals in this country to cause significant problems. There are many that would disagree with me and that is fine. I would be interested to know what that person sees , other than the lack of government funding, to be contributing to problems we face in america.


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## dado

Quote:

_Originally posted by sleeping queen_
*...the erosion of morals in this country to cause significant problems.*
i agree. what is happening in our country today is inexorably tied to the complete lack of morals exhibited by the current president.


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## sleeping queen

I didn't know we could pin everything on Bush







: The erosion of morals started long before he was in the Whitehouse. Heck we could go back just few years.


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## dado

i agree with that, too: the complete lack of ethics in the reagan regime changed america forever.


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## Lemon Balm

I've wonder what is wrong with America/Americans too. I'm perplexed as to what to do about it. I found similar embarassing American moments abroad as other posters have mentioned. It's really depressing.

I think as a population, we're just really out of touch with reality. I think we've taken freedom and individual rights too far on the one hand. We feel we have the right to do any self indulgent thing no matter how consumptive it is or what the costs to others are. On the other hand we seem to be willing to sit back and let important rights and/or freedoms be taken away from us.

I'm not sure where I going with this. I think that dh and I would be looking for another place to live if I didn't share a child with an ex. who lives in the US.

I didn't read the link regarding the decline in morals, but I do think we're really lacking morals as a nation. I don't see that having anything to do with religion. Those are quite seperate issues for me as most of the people whose morals I question are Christian.

I]edited to add: It was not fair for me to have not read the link, so now I have.[/I]


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## AmyB

Quote:

_Originally posted by gardeningmom_
*I think it a bit rude to consider that there is something wrong with us conservative voters. I think most people can see through the whole Clarke profitering , politicising book endeavor.*
I think Clarke is telling the truth.

I think the way that the Bush Administration is trying to discredit Clarke tends to support Clarke's claims that they refusted to listen to warnings about a possble terrorist attack and refused to take the threat of terrorism seriously.

Clarke was THE expert on terrorism. If the Bush Administration wouldn't listen to him then they were keeping themselves dangerously ignorant.

--AmyB


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## oceanbaby

Clarke is a Republican. He has served under 3 Republican presidents, and only 1 Democrat. He himself has asked that all his previously testimony be declassified, as it supports everything he is saying now. He has never changed his tune. And he is certainly not the only politician to write a book.

Plus, if you read any of the other PUBLIC documents regarding Bush's actions on terrorism both before and after 9/11, one of which was posted on this very forum, you will see that they support what Clarke is saying.

If Americans would stop watching Fox News (which is about as informative and accurate as the Enquirer), they might actually find some interesting information available to them.


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## mahdokht

Quote:

_Originally posted by sleeping queen_
*I didn't know we could pin everything on Bush







: The erosion of morals started long before he was in the Whitehouse. Heck we could go back just few years.*

When exactly was this golden age of American morality? I wonder if it was around the time when my great grands were providing cheap entertainment for the moral majority as they hung lifeless from trees on saturday night. Or does it go back further. Was the golden era when a man could rape or beat his wife with NO legal consequences? Was it when women had no right to vote? Were times better for the Chinese, the Africans, the American Indians back in that golden age?


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## journeymom

Hmmm. I like the analogy to an abused wife. Fear of the unknown keeps voters with the known, no matter how pathetic our president is.

Fear and laziness. I sincerely believe a lot of Americans are too lazy to vote. Many are content to let mega broadcasters spoon feed them their news. And then there are people like my in-laws who are not just conservatives, but Republicans, and chastised their son for "waisting" his vote when he voted Libertarian. They sincerely believe you should only vote for a major candidate; any other choice is a "waisted" vote. What about voting your conscious?? What about doing a little research, finding out about the candidates from more than one source, be discerning, think critically. And then make an educated vote, from the heart.


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## isleta

when I listen to NPR or democracy now or go to Al-jazeera and see the wounded and dead children and families of this war it haunts me and makes me think and worry about things that sometimes I even don't want to realize about my own country.

So, why not just stick an American flag sticker on your car and support Bush. In America you can ignore the rest of the world and be proud of it!!

Our ignorance is their power.


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## sleeping queen

I think a problem with america it seems to have to many people that seem to not appreciate it living here. They are more concerned with other countries and like to portray america as the big bad wolf. I think our loyalites should be with our country first, then compassion for other countries second.

This complaining about the war being unjustified makes no sense. If you go back to the last administration they thought SH had WMD, they thought he was linked to terrorism. These things about SH didn't change just because we had a new president. SH killed and tortured more of his own people than we ever will over there. Of course there is still violence, there is a small segment of the society who was loyal to SH







:


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## DaryLLL

Quote:

_Originally posted by dado_
*i agree with that, too: the complete lack of ethics in the reagan regime changed america forever.







*
dado my dear, if we are talking 20th century, look back to Nixon and Watergate. Look back to the assasination of JFK, RFK and MLK.

Look back to the steel and railroad tycoons of the earliest part of the 20th century. Their bloated mansions in NYC and Newport RI still stand.

from sq's thread:

Quote:

yes, telecasting around the world made-in-the-USA filth masquerading as entertainment.
At first I thought he might be referring to a certain maverick Hollywood film.

Nope, he is talking about the sexual content of the Super Bowl halftime, apparently "A show brought to us courtesy of Value-Les Moonves and the pagan temple [sic] of Viacom-Babylon." Do we accept being freely sexual is "filthy?" And showing an emphatically graphic NC17 style movie of a certain Jew being tortured and stripped of his flesh at the behest of other hairy beetle browed Jews is somehow uplifting and moral by contrast? And showing this movie to children as young as 5 is a return to family values of yore?

When this "Democrat" goes on, he idolizes the founding fathers who wanted "Biblical values" to guide US society. As in, enslave Africans and slaughter the "Indian savages" so we can steal their land, perhaps? Only allow white male landowner/robbers to vote?

Are these the values of the US's golden age we are asked to return to? No thank you.


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## aussiemum

sleeping queen-

Quote:

Of course there is still violence, there is a small segment of the society who was loyal to SH
I think you'll find that it's not just the Saddam loyalists who are participating in attacks on the occupying forces. It's a whole range of people, who mostly just want their country back. I have no doubt that SH commited horrific crimes against his own people & others. The problem is, when you try to force some sort of democracy on another country the end result is often less than what you'd hoped for. I can't think of an example where a country was able to develop a long-lived & stable democracy after being aided/invaded by another country with the intention of helping along the process. France? Self-directed revolution. America? Same. Poland? Same. That is not an exhaustive list BTW; I'm tired today. Yes, those countries may have had help from others at certain points in the revolution process, BUT the main driving force behind the revolution came from the people themselves.

In the current Iraq situation the US has attempted to push the revolution along, for it's own interests. I do not believe that the invasion of Iraq was driven by humanitarian motives. The US gov't may have been hoping for that as a nice little side benefit, but the primary reason behind the invasion was to protect US interests abroad (read: oil supply & Israel). Abroad. As in, outside your borders. In territory that the US has no right to be in or to control. That's not about being proud of your country & wanting to protect it. That's about being greedy. Being expansionist is what's got the US into the mess it's in now. Answering that with more expansion & pre-emptive stikes is just throwing fuel on the fire. Governments usually get into big trouble eventually if they try to take actual or effective control over too many countries.

The problem with America is that it's too big for it's britches, & if the US gov't doesn't recognise that (any political party- this is NOT a partisan issue here folks!) & start to make some adjustments to how they treat the rest of the world, then the rest of the world will be forced to force the change. IMO.

Quote:

I think a problem with america it seems to have to many people that seem to not appreciate it living here.
Exactly, sleeping queen. I do wish Americans would get used to the fact that they have plenty of resources for themselves & live in a beautiful country. They should get used to living within their means & leave the rest of the world alone.


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## robugmum

OT, someone mentioned a compulsory voting system. How does it work in Australia?


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## member234098

Quote:

_Originally posted by Snowy Owl_
*Is this, by any chance from someone who supports the Bush governement and therefore opposes people's right to be wrong and to disagree (i.e gay marriage, abortion)?
Or just a reminder not to get so pissed off?*
Alittle intolerant, aren't we?


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## aussiemum

Not-so-quick little







T on compulsory voting in Australia.

When you turn 18, you have to register yourself on the electoral roll (kinda like if you're a male in America you have to register for the draft). On election days, you just go to your local polling place & vote, usually just down the street. There's a $100 fine I think, if you don't vote, but I know a few people who refuse to vote & they've never had anything happen to them. Mostly tho, everyone just does it. You can dummy vote if you want ie: write a protest on the card, write in a funny name, whatever. The dummy vote doesn't count of course, but you actually have to get off the couch & go register your disgust with the system. You can do a postal vote if you wish, as long as you meet certain conditions. It's your responsibility to keep your voter info up to date; it's a cultural thing I guess- mostly everyone just does it. Oh, & we have preferential voting for most elections, so you have to rank your candidates, 1st choice, 2nd choice, etc. An election can be decided on preferences. If the US had this sort of system, Gore would probably be President right now. (That statement will give a few folks a cold chill, I'm sure







). Preferences are why the Greens do well here- you can vote Green & give your prefs to Labor (liberal), knowing that those preferences will usually keep the Liberals (conservative) from taking the seat. New Zealand actually has an even better system- they have proportional representation, I believe, which allows for more political parties to get involved in gov't. There you actually have to pay attention to what the minority thinks, even if you don't have to do what they want. (if that makes any sense)


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## robugmum

Thanks so much aussiemum! It sounds like a great system, much more enlightened than here in Canada. One could vote for who they actually believe in without feeling like they might be wasting their vote by taking a vote from the lesser evil (read, less idealistic party but much more likely to get in)! Too often that's the choice I have to make when I participate in our electoral system. Thanks again, sorry to hijack this thread, please return to your debate!


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## chicagomom

Quote:

_Originally posted by sleeping queen_
*I think a problem with america it seems to have to many people that seem to not appreciate it living here. They are more concerned with other countries and like to portray america as the big bad wolf. I think our loyalites should be with our country first, then compassion for other countries second.

This complaining about the war being unjustified makes no sense. If you go back to the last administration they thought SH had WMD, they thought he was linked to terrorism. These things about SH didn't change just because we had a new president. SH killed and tortured more of his own people than we ever will over there. Of course there is still violence, there is a small segment of the society who was loyal to SH







:*
I don't understand the comment 'not appreciate it living here' and what kind of 'loyalty' people are supposed to be showing. Please explain what you mean.

As for the war being unjustified, when the current administration said it had 'evidence' that SH had WMD many government officials (as well as citizens) did not believe it, and wanted to examine the evidence. These were told to essentially take it on faith, all the 'evidence' and the sources were kept hidden until later, when some others who believe in transparency in government revealed that the evidence and sources were a sham, a thinly pieced-together and greatly exaggerated piece of PR designed to inflame and frighten people. It was also later revealed that the current administration was, from day one, obsessed with 'getting' SH. No wonder people are angry.

Regarding the previous administration believing that SH was linked to stateless terrorism, can you please provide a source?


----------



## yeah yeah yeah

Quote:

_Originally posted by sleeping queen_
*I think a problem with america it seems to have to many people that seem to not appreciate it living here. They are more concerned with other countries and like to portray america as the big bad wolf. I think our loyalites should be with our country first, then compassion for other countries second.*
I care about our country first.

I want the citizens of this country to have good jobs, excellent public education, clean air, and the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I want them to have a commitment to the ideas of democracy. And, I want them safe.

And, that's why I can't vote for Bush--

A candidate that feels that "special preference" in accessing higher education should only be granted to privilaged citizens with "legacy" rights to admission.

A candidate that feels that our school system should be above all a federal numbers game, that it should incorporate Christian prayer and teaching, and that it should favor male athletes over female athletes.

A candidate that wants less of our beautiful country preserved for future generations and more SUV's on the road.

A candidate that believes that the state has an obligation to kill people. A candidate that believes there oughta be limits to freedom. A candidate that would rather see our entire country mired in debt, than see corporate America contribute thier fair share the country that's provided the opportunity for the accumulation of vast wealth.

A candidate that has actively seeked to destroy our the barrier between religion and government. He's hindered free speech. He's supported legislation to limit our right to assembly and dissent. He's actively championed legislation to diminish the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures. He's actively sought to destroy our right to due process of law. And, he's attacked our system of checks and balances.

And, instead of seeking Al-Quaida, he went to Iraq. Instead of allocating funds to _defending our borders_, he poured our money into further destabalizing the Middle East. And, above all, instead of leading a nation united in grief into a new century, with a coalition of allies and a new sense of purpose and solidarity, he pandered to a group of extremists that are publically committed to what amounts to World Domination, and in turn, bitterly divided the nation.

My compassion is first for my fellow citizens. I love this country--it's my home. And, to imply that I am disloyal to this nation, simply because I recognize poor citizenship in an appointed official, defies all logic.

I care about Americans. I want all of us to have a President that respects our rights, our system, and our people.


----------



## DaryLLL

YYY--

That was one of the most beautiful, heartfelt and eloquent speeches I have ever read, here on MDC or elsewhere.


----------



## yeah yeah yeah

Quote:

_Originally posted by DaryLLL_
*YYY--

That was one of the most beautiful, heartfelt and eloquent speeches I have ever read, here on MDC or elsewhere.







*
Thank you!!


----------



## sleeping queen

I care about my country to.

I want citizens to have the right to life too even the smallest citizens.

I want an education system that is accountable for what it is or isn't teaching the children. I'm tired of throwing money down the drain.

Higher education that is accessible to those who are willing to work for it.

I want to drive an SUV powered with biodiesel.

I want children to be able to pray in school if they want. Freedom of religion. Without the left twisting seperation of church and state.

I want a president who doesn't bow to a corrupt UN.

I want a country that severly punishes criminals instead of a slap on the wrist. I want a country safe for my children.

I want a president that will stand up for what is moral, right, and good. Not hollywoods idea of reality!


----------



## MissShy

Sleeping queen-


----------



## Towerkel

Quote:

_Originally posted by sleeping queen_
*
Higher education that is accessible to those who are willing to work for it.*

Define "work."

*
I want children to be able to pray in school if they want. Freedom of religion. Without the left twisting seperation of church and state.*

What is the twist? Please inform.
*
I want a president who doesn't bow to a corrupt UN.*
bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

*I want a country that severly punishes criminals instead of a slap on the wrist. I want a country safe for my children.*

hahahahahahahahahahahah

Oops, sorry. Still laughing from the previous one.
*
I want a president that will stand up for what is moral, right, and good. Not hollywoods idea of reality!*
Please explain to me what is moral, right and good about Dubya's actions in Iraq? Saddam was an evil man, I know I know, media has been shoving that down our throats lately. And I don't necessarily disagree. But _inventing_ a reason to invade and overthrow his regime, that's moral and right and good? And then LYING about it? Wait, is that the MR&G part?

Do you think your "MR&G" president is ever going to let you live your dream of owning a SUV that runs on Biodiesel? Not as long as his Oil buddies keep feeding him their $$$.

My major beef with Dubya is all about his blatent lies...

All before the war in Iraq, everything was WMD this and WMD that... Then we invaded and OMG, no WMD!

Suddenly WMD is toned down to the point that the press secretary wouldn't even answer questions about it.

THAT is the problem I have with Dubya, have some balls to come out and admit the truth, or at least some semblance of the truth.

The whole situation is like a bad magician trying to tell you that his lovely assistant never existed after she doesn't reappear from the box.

I want a president that won't treat us like idiots, most of us aren't.


----------



## dingogirl

Aussiemom, there is one thing I don't like about the Aussie system. To my understanding, the voters don't actually get to choose who the PM is. Whichever party ends up in charge of the coalition govt. gets to choose the PM. Am I not correct?


----------



## isleta

YYY! wonderful post my dear!


----------



## sleeping queen

Candiland, you'll have to clarify what you think is unloving. The Bible says we are to love others , no where does it say we have to accept sin. Disagreeing with someone doesn't equal not loving. My father and I used to argue politics all the time and I loved my dad.

Towerkel, I like to see kids graduating from high school who have average to good grades have the chance for college if they are willing to maintain good grades and do some type of work program for the money they receive. The money could be a mixture of grant and low interest loans depending on income of families.

Seperation of church in state is so no organized religion is in control of the government. A child praying in school is not harming anyone. I don't mean mandatory prayer. The ten commandments displayed is not hurting anyone. Christianity was the cornerstone of this country.

THe UN is corrupt just read about the food for oil program that they were involved in with IRAQ.

There have been a couple incidences here in the news where a criminal was released and then went out and killed someone.







I think we live in a sad time when gets can't go ride their bikes without the parents worrying about someone harming them.

WMD







SH had them, used them , the previous presidents knew he had them, I would think a person might wonder where they went. He had enought time to remove them thanks to the UNs stalling, but then agian they stood to lose a lot of money if SH was out of power.


----------



## Wildcrafter

I think it's apathy and a convenience-based society. People don't care enough to look into the issues. They would rather just get fed what's on the evening news or on the front page. Why bother looking into further? Why take the time to delve into politics, it's such a mess anyways.


----------



## PurpleBasil

Quote:

_Originally posted by sleeping queen_
*I think we live in a sad time when gets can't go ride their bikes without the parents worrying about someone harming them.
*
Who are the 'gets'? Is that like the have and have nots?

If you are referring to child abduction in the US, then you have bought into one of the most sensationalized, false fears industry in USA.

When you know actual risk compared with perceived risks you can make wiser choices. Unfamiliar to you perhaps but I encourage you to explore this concept.

I can always count on a full load of anecdotals from your posts.


----------



## sleeping queen

Wildcrafter I don't appreciate you implying I'm ignorant and am spoonfed because I disagree with you politicaly.

Playdoh, I know the chances of a child being abducted is very slim, but what about the molesters out there? In my own cirlce of people I know I can count 4 people I know who have been molested







. I you trying to say I don't make wise choices







:


----------



## NotQuiteJuneCleaver

I have only been here reading lately but this was too priceless to pass up. I can't believe someone more eloquent than I hasn't picked this apart. But here goes:

sleeping queen writes:

_I care about my country to._
At least you are acknowledging that some do CARE. Brava!

_I want citizens to have the right to life too even the smallest citizens._
Same old tired issue. ABORTION is legal for the time being anyway. Protest that instead of voting for someone who reportedly paid for an illegal one years ago. Please.

_I want an education system that is accountable for what it is or isn't teaching the children. I'm tired of throwing money down the drain._
Yep, No Child Left Behind has been a grand success - yep...best thing to happen to education since...
_
Higher education that is accessible to those who are willing to work for it._
Oh MY you sound like a democrat here...be careful. Be very VERY careful.
_
I want to drive an SUV powered with biodiesel._
There is no response fitting for this. Not in mixed company anyway. Geez Louise! I can't help what you can't afford. And Bush doesn't give a rat's a$$. All his friends drive what they want to. And he is going after more oil so they can continue to! Just hang on the pipeline will be thru as soon as they can clean up their mess in Iraq.
_
I want children to be able to pray in school if they want. Freedom of religion. Without the left twisting seperation of church and state._Stunning, simply stunning. Who told you your kids couldn't pray? I always thought the real Christians walked around with prayer on their lips at all times. I was under the impression prayer didn't have to be out loud. My mistake.
_
I want a president who doesn't bow to a corrupt UN._ :LOL :LOL :LOL Corrupt UN??? Enron ring a bell...corrupt is W's OTHER middle name. :LOL :LOL
_
I want a country that severly punishes criminals instead of a slap on the wrist. I want a country safe for my children._Kill 'em all and let God sort them out huh??? Is that another example of conservative compassion?? I bet the Iraqi children feel extra safe now with us in charge. How about Spain's children? How about the children across the globe who are starving? Do you have any idea what kind of irrigation system we could have built in Ethiopia for pennies on the dollar of what we have spent in Iraq? Humanitarian Efforts - look it up. Did you ever think what might have happened if we had sent aid to the Iraqi people instead of sanctioning them to death? All over their leadership? They might not be ambushing our soldiers now if we had shown one iota of compassion to them. They see thru this farce, why can't you? More soldiers died yesterday - over what? Tell me again, I forget why we are there. Something about freeing someone? BS!
_
I want a president that will stand up for what is moral, right, and good. Not hollywoods idea of reality!_ Then how in the hell can you vote for Bush? Lying, cheating, paying for illegal abortions, coked up, drunk, warmongering...need I go on? If your God is a just God, Mr. Bush has quite an eternity in store for him. There is an awful lot of innocent blood on his hands. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Back to what you were all doing. Couldn't pass this one up. The God I believe in won't let this pass unnoticed.The Jesus I believe in wouldn't bomb anyone. For any reason. The only ones my Jesus condemned were those that were the religious right of his day. And of course the ones who made money at the temple. Face it Jesus was a liberal. He new what to love humanity above self meant. Not something any "religious right" person I have ever met, here or in RL, understands. So run along in your SUV to picket that abortion clinic and don't let any of this other stuff cross your mind.


----------



## Wildcrafter

sq, I don't read your posts. I was only replying to the posted question.

Mary


----------



## NotQuiteJuneCleaver

Quote:

WMD SH had them, used them , the previous presidents knew he had them,
Yes, dear, we provided him with them. You know, when he was one of the 'good guys'.


----------



## NotQuiteJuneCleaver

But back to the original question.
What is wrong with Americans???

I think anyone reading this thread could answer. It seems fairly obvious.


----------



## PurpleBasil

Quote:

_Originally posted by sleeping queen_
*I you trying to say I don't make wise choices







:*
Not at all! Sorry it came across that I did. The 'concept' was the idea, not the actual choices made.

I'm so sad to learn of those four molestations.


----------



## steph

Quote:

But back to the original question.
What's wrong w/Americans?

Mostly were a bunch of privledged, self-obsessed, candy-assed whiners, too lazy to change.

Sorry to sound harsh, but I've got a bug up my butt tonight...


----------



## aussiemum

OT- Dingo girl, you are correct, the PM is the leader of the ruling party. But, if we ditch the queen & become a republic, then we will be able to vote for a president.

If my life hadn't suddenly warped into out of control speed, there is so much more I would like to respond to.


----------



## sohj

Quote:

_Originally posted by sleeping queen_
*I didn't know we could pin everything on Bush







: The erosion of morals started long before he was in the Whitehouse. Heck we could go back just few years.*
Yeah, to Grover Cleveland.

And Ulyssees S. Grant.

And Andrew Johnson.

And Eisenhower.

And Kennedy.

And Nixon.

And George Herbert Walker Bush.

And Newt Gingrich.

And Bob Dole.

All long before Clinton.....who I assume is the one you are obliquely referring to.

In fact, there is a great and hallowed tradition of men in powerful offices taking advantage of people in a variety of ways.


----------



## sohj

Quote:

_Originally posted by sleeping queen_
*I think a problem with america it seems to have to many people that seem to not appreciate it living here. They are more concerned with other countries and like to portray america as the big bad wolf. I think our loyalites should be with our country first, then compassion for other countries second.
*
This is a naive way of looking at our country.

And, this is a "patriotic soundbite" response to a point of debate being used in lieu of a chain of reasoning with facts, sources and quotations or, at least, an explanation of a philosophy. This is not a philosophy, this is a defense against thinking.

Loyalty should be to a code of ethics....not to a country. This "my country, right or wrong" stuff is dangerous.

There is a marine captain who has been assigned as the lawyer for an australian who got picked up in Afganistan for fighting with the enemy. He is pledged to defend the Consititution of the United States of America and to uphold the Rule of Law. He is doing so by making sure that a defendant has capable representation in a court of law. He is being patriotic.

But, I suspect that you would consider this soldier-lawyer to be a traitor for accepting this assignment. In fact, I have heard many people who say a lot of things similar to what I read in your posts that none of the prisoners should have a trial...that they should all be shot. "Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out." Is this what you advocate?

Just wondering.


----------



## aussiemum

I am so glad to read that someone in America has heard of David Hicks.

Quote:

There is a marine captain who has been assigned as the lawyer for an australian who got picked up in Afganistan for fighting with the enemy. He is pledged to defend the Consititution of the United States of America and to uphold the Rule of Law. He is doing so by making sure that a defendant has capable representation in a court of law. He is being patriotic.
The Marine lawyer is doing the best he can to ensure a fair trial for David. He has recently been over here researching David's background in preparation for the trial. Many Australians are concerned that he is simply going to be given a token trial & then executed. We would like him back home please- he has broken no laws according to our legal system, which is why we fear he will never come home again- the Americans will not allow him to 'escape'. It is so unfair, & another sad example of why Australia should not trust America. We can take care of our own, thanks!

There is another Australian in Guantanamo Bay, Mammadou Habib (& i've mis-spelled his name







: ). He is very likely to be executed as well. His wife & children in Sydney would like to see their husband & father again, please. If these two men ever do come home, we fear that they will be permanently psychologically damaged from their captivity- it is damaging to the mind to be held without charge for so long.

And it all falls on deaf ears over there, because 'You're either with us or against us' (paraphrasing). I've said it once, I'll say it again- And this is how you treat your friends??? Indeed, what is wrong with Americans???


----------



## Towerkel

Quote:

_Originally posted by aussiemum_
*

And it all falls on deaf ears over there, because 'You're either with us or against us' (paraphrasing). I've said it once, I'll say it again- And this is how you treat your friends??? Indeed, what is wrong with Americans???*
And this is what truly saddens me, because the Americans who disagree with what this country (readresident) is doing in the middle east fall under the blanket of nationality. We're being punished because Big Brother is acting "in our best interests."


----------



## BusyMommy

Alright, I'm going to go back and finish re-reading, but this ticked me right off the bat:

Quote:

the most lazy, fear-based thinking I have ever heard in my life:"Well, you know what you got (referring to Bush); but you don't know what you'll get (referring to the alternative)."
I don't think I'm lazy or afraid. I don't like Kerry. I don't like Bush. So, what to do? Not vote? Throw away my vote on a green or independent candidate? (what I usually do







: )

Our choices suck.
I despise Bush but please don't paint Kerry as a saint, either.


----------



## aussiemum

Quote:

Throw away my vote on a green or independent candidate?
With all due respect, it is not throwing away your vote to voice your dissent. Do not let yourself be intimidated into voting for someone you don't want to vote for. That is not what democracy is about. If more people voted their conscious, or even actually got out to vote, I believe there would be an outcry against a situation where someone who gets less than a majority of votes is allowed to rule without any sort of control or coalition. I mean, what is the alternative? To spend your life locked into this Repub/Demo duopoly- where the two parties become ideologically closer & closer until they are virtually identical? And what have you got then?


----------



## BusyMommy

Yeah, it's my pathetic hope that if "people" see the other parties getting more and more support, that maybe...just maybe...they'll vote to their conscience, too. Or, at least it'll show the idiots who ARE in office that there's an increasing # of us out there.

D*mn depressing, though. You know we're stuck w/one of them.

My town actually has a good mayor this term. OH MY, what a difference!


----------



## JessicaS

This thread is being returned and is currently awaiting some edits.

Let's try and keep this thread on topic and about Americans not about just one person who is posting on this thread.


----------



## Mizelenius

Quote:

_Originally posted by sleeping queen_
*I think our loyalites should be with our country first, then compassion for other countries second.*
I SO agree. Why doesn't Bush?

If we put the US first, this war wouldn't have happened. First it was about WOMD . . .but when they weren't found







: , we were in Iraq to "help them."

If we put the US first, maybe Bush wouldn't make it so easy for corporations to outsource jobs . . .and then US citizens would have jobs instead of giving them away to people in other countries.


----------



## Tigerchild

If we are talking about what's wrong with Americans in a political outlook sense...

I think it's the epitome of American politics that most Republicans that I talk to (the ones that I KNOW, not some loudmouthed dipsh!t on the radio or a troll, ect.) will admit that Bush doesn't represent most ideals of the Republican party and has certainly bungled the economy and at the very least the *handling* of Iraq and 9/11. Note, they may very well agree to the principle of getting involved/going after terrorists, but not the way Bush did and they don't like him personally.

Yet, when asked if they will vote for him in November, they will say yes...because they can't stand the thought of "the other side" winning.

Then, you have the democrats. You know, I do not personally know ONE person who likes Kerry or is excited about him. Most of the people I know liked Dean or Edwards or Kucinich (however the hell you spell it) and maybe a sprinkling of others. Yet, when it came time for the primaries, who did they vote for? Not the guy they thought best represented them, or who they thought would be best for us. *They voted for Kerry because they thought that only he was 'electable'*

So, in 2004, we have two candidates running that MOST people couldn't give a rat's patootie about on a personal excitement level. Yet each one will get most of the votes they'll get NOT because of what they've done, but what the voters think the other guy will do.

So sad. But very typical. And I count myself in that, because I am signing away my sanctity by casting a vote for Kerry (who I think is is bland and corrupt as anyone else who can last that long in Congress) because I want Bush out of office so bad.

Vomitrocious, I tell you.


----------



## steph

Quote:

Vomitrocious, I tell you.
Vomitrocious - this is my new favorite word! Apt and fitting for a multitude of situations - esp. those political...


----------



## Annik

Here's what I want to know..

Why wasn't there a bigger push to get rid of the electoral college after the 2000 election?

How do we get out of this the two-party trap?

I can't believe I'm saying this, since I'm a life-long liberal, but where have all of the fiscal conservatives gone??? How can the Republicans of this country support a president who spends uncontrollably and has absolutely no regard for personal freedoms?

I fear that No Child Left Behind will ensure that future generations vote as their told instead of using their minds to make the best decision.

Just my two cents.


----------



## jeyer

Quote:

_Originally posted by dingogirl_
*Perhaps Kerry is behind (assuming he's actually behind) because he's basically pulling a Dukakis.
...
And then there are the flip-flops on various issues. Some people don't care for that.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2096540/*
Bush is the flip-flopper in chief:

http://www.americanprogress.org/site...RJ8OVF&b=42263


----------



## TiredX2

The major problem with "Americans" that I can think of right now is a major lack of responsibility.

If we want to get technical, the federal government is to *protect* its citizens from enemies both foriegn and home-grown. That said, I think a wider definition of responsibility would be to finish what you have started. Where is OBL? What is going on in Afghanistan? The Iraq war was wrong not ONLY because it was based on false information and deciet, but because we had not taken care of a PREVIOUS responsibility. Until Afghanistan is under control and the Afghanis have freedom & democracy, how can we move on nation building.

One major source of this problem is the skewed visions most Americans have of the world (including myself). Iraq was NOT living in the dark ages. But, if you ask most Americans I think they would talk about how we are bringing schools & electricity there--- THEY ALREADY HAD THEM! Crazyness.


----------



## polka123

Angela - my hearts light,
you bring up some good points !
there is SOOOOoooooo much Bush-bashing here !
It seems very weird !
When I think of the other alternative - Kerry- that scares the [email protected] out of me -
Folks might be anti-Bush but no one is saying they're for scary-Kerry.
IMHO - I'm so glad Gore was not in power when 911 happened.
At my home, we feel VERY fortunate for the BRAVE Men & Women fighting for the folks in the US to have the right to sit here & complain about their leader.
We pray for the US soldiers keeping many peoples of the world just a tad safer.
Being Pres. is a totally thankless job that many people b!tch about but none would want to do.
Bush does NOT flip/flop - at least he has that - now Kerry - his candle is burning @ both ends -
Clinton was NO saint & his foreign policies were terrible - he left much of the mess we're in today.
The dot.com Co's should have been slowed down so the economy did not dip so badly. What comes up must come down.
Bless the Military families doing without their loved ones.

















edited to add: me...... LOL, I'll probably vote for Nader only b/c we need more that 2 candidates


----------



## Mothra

My heart's light-- you don't speak for all active duty military or their family members. There are legions of us who are profoundly disturbed by what Bush has done to our country and our military. He is NOT looking out for the military member or the families of military members. It made me sick to my stomach to read in the transcripts this morning that Bush spoke of speaking with the families of victims of 9/11 "often" because he is not meeting with the families of soldiers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. He is not attending their funerals and he will not allow their caskets to be shown on the news or even photographed, as far as I know.

Bush is screwing the military left and right and anyone paying attention KNOWS that. Check out the proposed cuts in separation and hostile fire pay that HE APPROVED. The defense budget has gone through the roof since he has been in office yet we have reservists and guard members in hostile fire zones without the proper protective gear. Family members and churches are purchasing armor for individual soldiers.

The voices of those soldiers who do support the president are being heard loud and clear. The ones of those who do not are being ignored and silenced. I DO support the men and women serving in our military. I do my part and then some. I cared for my husband's children and household while he was deployed. I do whatever I can to help the families of other soldiers that are deployed. I send care packages. I donate money to the Red Cross. But I won't say that those that are dying over there are dying for "the greater good" because they are not. What we are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan is just plain wrong, and it makes it that much harder for me that people are dying. I won't hold my tongue for four years waiting for an election year to voice my opinions.


----------



## jeyer

Quote:

_Originally posted by my~hearts~light_
*Perhaps we could all specify what EXACT issues are important to us in the upcoming election.

I'll start. Socail security, big one for us.
Military pay, treatment and housing.
Programs for children wth special needs. (Handicapped)
Prayer in shcools.
Abortion. It will almost surely never be made illegal but I'd prefer a goverment that doesn't allow it to be made easier or later.
I want a praying president. No matter what religion he practices.
*
1. Social Security? Well, then Bush isn't the one for you. He wants to dismantle Social Security. http://www.ourfuture.org/issues_and_...article185.cfm

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0305-04.htm

2. Military pay, treatment and housing. You'd know better than me, but I've read about Bush slashing veterans' benefits. http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/1222-01.htm

3. Programs for children wth special needs. (Handicapped). Thanks to Bush's reckless fiscal policies and tax cuts that are heavily tilted to the very wealthy, programs for the disabled are being starved in Texas and elsewhere. http://www.cotwd.org/printer.php?style=style&cat=14

4. Prayer in schools. Well, if that's important, then Bush is your man.

5. Abortion. Bush is your guy.

6. Praying. All I can say about this is that for all his religiosity, Bush is one of the most un-Christian men I can think of. His policies directly contradict the teachings of the Bible. He is not compassionate; and every time he invokes God, in my eyes he is blaspheming. This article sums up my views on this:
http://www.counterpunch.org/sullivan07082003.html

More reading on Bush:
Environment:
http://www.rollingstone.com/features...n.asp?pid=2154

Ethics:
http://slate.msn.com/?id=2067870

Misc.: New York Times columnist Paul Krugman has written a lot of great, enlightening stuff on Bush. Here's a list of links to his columns:
http://www.pkarchive.org/column/column.html


----------



## Marg of Arabia

All I can say is if my family were a military family I would hate Bush even more than I do now.


----------



## Arduinna

awww come on Marg, he is putting all that military training to use.


----------



## Changed

,


----------



## Mothra

Quote:

_Originally posted by my~hearts~light_
*I did not imply that I speak for military families as a whole. I said "most" and I believe that. There is nothing to prove that either way.*
You're right about that. Those soldiers and family members who do NOT agree with what is going on right now have no voice. And so it will remain that only those who do support Bush and his agenda will be heard, and the impression that the general public has is that the soldiers have a favorable opinion of all of this. Which is bullshit, by the way.


----------



## Mizelenius

Quote:

The soldiers you see on the news are real people with families. Their wives and children deserve to at least think that our country is behind them and that they died serving for the greater good. Keep in mind that those soliders don't decide where they go or what their misson is.
Where would you ever get the idea that liberals wouldn't care about this? I may be anti-war, but I'm never anti-soldier.

I understand that many soldiers are profoundly committed to their cause-- they are willing to die for it. I also know that many soldiers didn't necessarily get into the military by choice. They may have lacked other opportunities (esp. now that so many jobs are being shipped overseas) and needed money to feed their families. The soldiers I see dying are often so young that I wonder if they ever could've imagined what they were in for when they enlisted. I know that at age 19 or 20, my view of my own mortality and the world in general was quite different from what it is now.

I take the deaths of the soliders very seriously. . .which is why I am sorrowed by the thought of how many more lives will be lost before this is over . . .


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## Marg of Arabia

Mizelenius,

Didn't you know that if you do not like the war or Bush you hate America and the military???







:


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## isleta

I also think some Americans are driven by FEAR! And in his recent speech, Bush used the words: fear, freedom, the almighty and terror more times that I could count. This admin. really knows how to push the fear. Also, in terms of being against the war in Iraq. He also implied that if you are against it you are unpatriotic and don't care about the soldiersor any part of America! I feel this makes many people not speak up because of fear.

I think that thinking is very patriotic!

And BTW I considered a "liberal" even though some would think I was too left! And i don't think one thread on a forum could tell anyone the definition of what a "liberal" is or thinks. I have been called too open-minded and a bleeding-heart, not closed-minded. Pacifists tend to get this BTW. I just tend to look at all the facts and tend to think that we as humans have brains so why not use them to their fullest potential.


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## grnbn76

Quote:

_Originally posted by Mothra_
*You're right about that. Those soldiers and family members who do NOT agree with what is going on right now have no voice. And so it will remain that only those who do support Bush and his agenda will be heard, and the impression that the general public has is that the soldiers have a favorable opinion of all of this. Which is bullshit, by the way.*
New to this debate, but I just had to point something out...
Servicemen currently serving in the US Armed Forces are not allowed to voice an unfavorable opinion. If an active duty military member speaks out against their Commander in Chief, they are in direct violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. It is an offense for which the member can be court martialed, and in time of war, can be called treason (still punishable by death).
So whether or not servicemen and women disagree with this war is a moot point, they are not allowed to. You will never hear of an active duty member saying they disagree with President Bush, because they can be court martialed for it.


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## Arduinna

:

a review of the user agreement might be in order


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## grnbn76

Quote:

_Originally posted by Arduinna_
*







:

a review of the user agreement might be in order*
Since you didn't specify, and your post came directly after mine, I have to assume you were speaking to me.
I don't ever recall reading in the user agreement that posters were not allowed to include factual information in their threads.
Am I wrong?


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## TiredX2

grnbn76---

I'm fairly certain it *wasn't* directed towards you. I'm sure Arduinna will correct me if wrong.

That said.... I was interested in this post from Annik (a new member--- welcome!!!







):

Quote:

Why wasn't there a bigger push to get rid of the electoral college after the 2000 election?
Now, THERE is a real problem with America. The republicans haven't sold us out, the dems haven't sold us out... they both have. Neither want the people to have a true voice or the Electoral College would have been revamped and we would at least have proportional representation on a state level! (meaning, not all electoral votes go to one candidate from a given state).


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## Arduinna

around here it's best not to assume much. No I wasn't speaking to you grbrn.

Marg, I gotta say I agree with you though.


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## BeeandOwlsMum

I highly suggest that everyone take a big giant step back and pause before they post.

Please remember that personal attacks, overt rude sarcasm, name calling are NOT allowed.

It is a good idea to review the user agreement. If you find yourself unable to post respectfully, without vitriol, then please don't post.

If this thread continues in this vein it will be removed.


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## Arduinna

Marg, it isn't you it's Merc retro

and ITA w/you about ignore


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## isleta

Quote:

_Originally posted by Arduinna_
*Marg, it isn't you it's Merc retro

*
No! It's the FEAR!!!

I am telling you!


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## SaveTheWild

my~hearts~light:

I'll bite and tell you why Kerry (actually almost anyone) would be better than Bush. (i am going in random order, based on things that pop into my head or are important to me, not necessarily in order of importance) Also when I say "Bush" Imean the Bush Administration. he is not in this alone and he has plenty of scary minion doing the dirty deeds for him (Cheney, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft)

1) The Environment. Bush has done more to undercut environmental protection in this country than anyone in American political history. He has undermined the Clean Air Act, the Endangered Specied Act, The National Environmental Protection Act, etc. to the point that he has set the country back 30 years in the protection of the environemnt. He has made the EPA remove sections in scientific whitepapers because they didn't comply with his politics (remove mention of the impacts and severity of global warming, water down information about the dangers of mercury poisioning, remove mention that the "Clear skies initiative" would result in more pollution...I could go on). I did a little experiment and decided to see how many days in a row I could find an article in the paper about some new environmental destruction committed by Bush (rolling back standards, permitting more pollution, etc). I lost count...

And anyone who tries to trot out the "people vs. the environment" really doesn't get it. Protecting the environment is about protecting people. Environmentalists want to keep mercury out of the water and air so that babies are not neurologically damaged in utero; environmentalists want to keep arsenic and PBDB and PEBs and dioxin out of the water and air so that people don't get cancer from them. The only people Bush's anti-environmental positions protect are the polluters and extractors.

Why is Kerry better? Because he cares about the environment.

2) Civil Rights
I don't know what makes me more upset about the civil rights policies of Bush. 1) the fact that the civil rights abuses are so unbelievable, or 2) that Americans are so apathetic about it. Things are going on that should be causing us all to be marching to Washington, chaining ourselves to government buildings, refusing to allow these things to happen.

I dont want this post to end up being 100 pages long, so I won't detail all the atrocities. Basically the fourth amendment is wiped out. Equal protection? that too, pretty much gone. And the Guantanamo Bay camps? Are you f***ing kidding me? The fact that legal scholars all across the country have been saying that many of the positions taken by Bush and Ashcroft and most of the aspects of the Patriot Act will never pass constitutional scruitiny should give people a sign that this administration is whacked.

Why is Kerry better? Because he cares about civil rights.

3) Iraq

I don't think it could possibly have been handled worse. I truly believe that the handling of the Iraq situation will be studied and disected is history books for decades as a total and complete disaster.

i truly believe Kerry would have handled it differently.

4) Taxing (or not taxing) the Rich and Corporations.

Tax cuts for the rich. You know 'cuz it'll trickle down...
Cutting the estate tax (labeled "the death tax" by conservatives -- thinking people would actually be dumb enough to think that it meant that a lot of people get taxed for dying. Well, it worked, people actually think that now. Scary.) Anyway, dumb idea.
Cutting taxes for corporations. Also really dumb. The $300 tax refund for every taxpayer. Really, really dumb.

Why is Kerry better? Cuz.

5) Corporate Accountability

OK, this one's too easy.

6) Morality -- I like this one. I love that somehow Bush is seen as the "moral" one, despite the fact that he used to be a coke-head and alcoholic, despite the fact that he lies about important things, like national security and war, the fact that he really seems to only care about his corporate buddies and money. Oh wait, yeah, he's anti-abortion, that's all that seems to matter...

OK, there are a lot more, but I have to go to bed...


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## SaveTheWild

my~hearts~light

Oh....

I just read in the "most hated objects" thread that you said your "goal" vehicle is a Hummer and that you couldn't understand why someone would have it on their list of things that they hate.

I can see that we are coming from totally different worlds, and never the twain shall meet.


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## jeyer

SaveTheWild -- AMEN!

If my~hearts~light would read any of the story links I posted, she would see why to vote for Bush is to vote against many of the things she cares about. But she didn't seem interested.


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## Mothra

Quote:

_Originally posted by my~hearts~light_
*[ I also know that many soldiers didn't necessarily get into the military by choice. They may have lacked other opportunities (esp. now that so many jobs are being shipped overseas) and needed money to feed their families.

That's totally untrue. No matter what the reason for enlisting was, it is a choice! Any 18,19,20 year old is made very aware of what they are sighning up for. They know what they are doing. It's still a choice even if you're broke. It's a chouce if you didn't go to college. It's a choice if you regret it. They majority of young people who are coming in are single and need a job. My husband does the inprocessing for the new recriuts for the entire air force. I meet these people all the time. Most are excited about starting a life in the military and are well informed of what they will be doing in the military. You get to choose what type of job you will do to some extent. You get to choose what branch you join. Long gone are the days of the draft and I hope the will never reinstate it. It is as it should be, a choice.*
Hmm, living in poverty or joining the military-- yeah, that is a real toughie. Just like all those poor people on welfare made the "choice" to be there, too, right?

My husband joined the military because he was flunking out of college and broke. He did not want to flip burgers for the rest of his life. I've hears some version of that story over and over again in the seven and a half years I've been married to my husband.

There are not many viable opportunities for young, motivated people without a college education. College is most certianly not an option for everyone, either because of finacial restraints or other situations. In case you didn't know, the military population is disproportionately made up of ethnic minorities. Rich white boys and girls don't enlist in the Marines when they graduate from high school.

grnbn76-- I'm fairly certain that was not aimed at you, as well. However, there are families of soldiers that are trying to speak out and are not given any attention by the media. The polls clearly show that the US is divided about the war in Iraq, yet all you ever see on the news are the flagwavers. There are soldiers who are willing to risk being court martialed for speaking out and are still being ignored. Two soldiers were in the news briefly for refusing to return to Iraq, but they never got too much exposure. I believe, as well, that that the reg you cite only applies to soldiers in uniform or speaking as a representative of the US military, which can be loosely interpreted. My understanding is that in civilian clothes, sitting on their back porch drinking a beer, they can say whatever they please. Many do express disfavor with Bush under those circumstances.

I know many soldiers, like my brother, who absolutely loves being in the military, he's Army, but he is getting out now that he is back from Afghanistan because he cannot stomach what is going on over there. He is not re-enlisting. If Bush wins, my husband, who also loves his job and is in the Air Force, will not re-enlist.


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## Mothra

About chosing your job-- you have to be so unbelievably careful with what you say when you request a certain career field. If you choose fuels, infantry, or food service you're pretty much guaranteed to get it.

I've seen families destroyed by recruiters who flat out lied about the amount of time off the recruit would get, the amount of money they would make (usually a lie about a bonus), and the type of job that a person would be doing. It always comes down to, "Well, you should have known what you were getting into." Which is true, everyone should know by now that the military lies about pretty much everything.

It hasn't always been this way, and the military has been good to me and my family, for the most part. But the things I have seen other families go through is just cruel and inexcusable. My point is that you can't make a chioce when you don't have all of the information, and new recruits almost never do. It works out great for some, not-so-good for others. Almost everyone can make-do, but you kind of forget after a while that not everyone has to put up with the crap you do.


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## SaveTheWild

just thought of another reason why Kerry is better than Bush (adding to my post above)

The Constitutional Amendment to ban gay marriages -- not only is it blatantly discriminatory, its just plain old mean spirited.


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## Mothra

Quote:

_Originally posted by my~hearts~light_
*5. You are so very wrong about the whole UCMJ thing. It's not just when you are in uniform, it's when you are in the military and actuve duty. They SHOULD get court martialed for that. You'd likely get canned if you did that to your boss.*
You have made it glaringly clear that you only care about things that affect you directly, and only your perception of what is going on in the world around you is relevant in your mind.

However, for those who ARE interested, here are links to the UCMJ codes which discuss political activities of active duty military members. The codes are different for officers and enlisted. People are threatened left and right with no actual basis.

I really wish people would do their own damned homework.

From Article 88 of the UCMJ

"Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct."

From DoD Directive 1344.10

"A member on AD may:

(1) Register, vote, and express his or her personal opinion on political candidates and issues, but not as a representative of the Armed Forces."

Another article on free speech in the military. I don't agree with the entire tone of the article, but it is factually correct.

The Limits of Free Speech in the Military


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## jeyer

Quote:

_Originally posted by my~hearts~light_
*3. I read through the links that were posted for me. They were all from liberal points of view. How can you expect that they would relay anything well but liberal ideals.
*
The Boston Globe? The New York Times? That's where most of those originated from (and it says so right at the top of each article). They were just *reprinted* on liberal sites ... because you'd have to pay to get them from the newspaper archives.

Also, unless you have the power to see into the future, it's plain silly to assert that "Kerry won't care about those issues after he's elected." His voting record proves otherwise.

Oh, and Bush is no dope. He's mean, selfish, irresponsible, self-rightous, crooked, deceitful (I could go on) ... but he's no dope.


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## Mothra

Quote:

_Originally posted by my~hearts~light_
*OK then,
1. I don't care about gay marriage. Sorry, I'm not gay and think there are more important isuues on the table.
*
This reminds me an awful lot of the guy I went to college with who bought a house our junior year. He was stupid rich. He got mad as all hell when he realized that his property taxes paid for public schools. Since he didn't have any children, and didn't plan on putting his potential children in public school, he didn't see why it was his problem.

Until we are all free none of us are. No one in this country is safe under the Bush administration.


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## MaShroom

i thought i was going to have a long read when i opened this thread but after using the ignore option it wasn't so long anymore.:LOL

what is wrong with americans? that most are so damnably self-serving and do it in good conscience.


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## SaveTheWild

Quote:

_Originally posted by my~hearts~light_
*1. I don't care about gay marriage. Sorry, I'm not gay and think there are more important isuues on the table.*
I am not going to get into any more of this with my~hearts~light, but this so reminds me of a poem by Pastor Martin Niemöller:

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

I think my~hearts~light (and the many many others who feel that way) would do good to be reminded of that poem.

(though to be honest, I have always has a bit of a problem with the ultimate "moral" of the poem, because it suggests that the reason you should care about others is because you may need others to look out for you -- to me, selflessly caring about other people should be the true goal (though if we could even get people to take the first step, much would be acheived.))


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## cynthia mosher

This thread has been closed once and has already received a moderator's redirection to keep things civil and still there are personal flames being tossed. I'm closing the thread and will discuss it with the mods and we will contact members that have posted inappropriately. If we can return the thread to a level of decent discussion we will do so and reopen it. If not then we'll just let it rest.


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## cynthia mosher

I have removed some inappropriate posts from this thread as well as a few that were no longer appropriate due to the removals. Please discuss the topic and not each other. Keep it civil and respectful. if you can't do so then don't post; otherwise it may cost you your posting privileges in this forum.


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## Marg of Arabia

OH! Thank you! I thought this thread would just vanish!

You are too cool! Cynthia!


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## isleta

save the wild! That poem is so true! it applies to many events happening in our country.

With the gay marriage amendment, it is un-American to me because this document is all about GIVING and PROTECTING rights, not taking them away.


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## SaveTheWild

Yeah, sadly the message seems to have been missed by so many Americans today. It applies to Iraq, racial profiling, gay marriage, all of Ashcroft's reign of terror, the environment...and so much more. Like with the patriot act and the other fourth amendment butchering of late. People actually say "I'm not a terrorist [or criminal] and I have nothing to hide, so why should I care about the fourth amendment."


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## Momtezuma Tuatara

What is wrong with Americans?

Probably the same things that were wrong with Romans before that empire fell....


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## cynthia mosher

C'mon people!!

Someone alerted someone to a post in this thread and that alerted someone posted here to gripe about it? Why in the heck didn't that someone or that alerted someone PM me about it?? Those are the rules, in case you haven't read them. Bring it to us and we'll handle it. Got a gripe about a member's behavior or posting or about my actions or inaction? Tell me and I'll look at it. But DON'T post it out here to be hashed out.

Double standards?? I failed to remove that post. Shame on me for making a mistake but it is gone now as well as the slew of posts that followed the complaint about it.

This is the last warning to this thread. If anyone posts out of line again they will have their posting privileges to this forum suspended.

I'm trying to give everyone a chance here. Please try to post apppropriately and handle issues as we have always asked they be handled. If you don't know or don't understand what I'm asking of you or don't get the rules then PM me.


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## Marg of Arabia

Thanks! Cynthia~!
I never meant to say that you have a double standard. The Right here have often pointed out that there is a double standard and I was just pointing out that it can go both ways.

I do not believe there is a double standard here!









marg


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## 15yrsbetweenboys

I have thought long and hard about posting to this thread, but feel that I must get it over with.

What is wrong with Americans you ask????

Apathy? Lack of responsiblity? Lack of community? Yes, but more IMO

I am sorry, but as a society we are a bunch of whiny finger pointers-it is always somebody elses fault, this guy, that guy, somebody else entirely yada yada yada. Nobody-I mean NOBODY wants to take responsibility for our country-many would prefer to leave entirely as other threads would attest.

Nobody wants to turn out to vote (whatever the reason) but everybody wants to compain about what is wrong!

As a reminder
http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_bor.html

you can clearly see that our government is supposed to be
centered around a belief that the PEOPLE (thats you, me, Billy Bob and everybody else by the way) could and SHOULD be able to govern themselves, unfortunately for one reason or another our PEOPLE no longer care enough to vote (Hence, the seemingly endless downward spiral into the crapper). Yes, many feel that their vote doesn't count, or that they are throwing it away-but really, what it comes down to is an inability to take responsibility for our own government.

We ARE the US government-no matter how much we may dislike the association, the intention of the founding fathers was that we would be bound together in this union. If we don't agree with something that our "governing officials" (those guys WE put into office) does or implies-then it is our patriotic duty to make sure that we work to change it (yes, I said WORK LOL).

Yes, many feel that they are wasting their time/effort voting in the elections-and that may be true to some extent-but what I am talking about is outside the planned elections......if we are unhappy with our government (which we really seem to be) then it is up to US to change it!! Not just during campaigning and elections, but to actually step back and re-evaluate the entire situation with voting (which caused a serious issue for a short time in 2000, then everybody seemed to "forget" about it), with our elected officials who are not upholding the values we expect from them(they are supposed to represent the PEOPLE after all). Again, I say it is our DUTY, our RESPONSIBILITY to DO SOMETHING about it!

Finally, too many people have become too wrapped up in their own lives, and don't really have the "time" to work to change anything-they forget that the only reason they have the freedom to live those lives is because people fought and died to give us the right to worship as we choose, to speak our minds etc.

So, I am sorry if this steps on toes or causes discomfort-it is my honest, personal opinion on this subject.

together we stand, divided we fall









Forgive me for ranting-but this is my honest opinion (and yes, like a-holes, everybody has one-including me LOL)

Shan
p.s. I don't know the answer to all of our problems-but I see that we will never fix the problems until more people are willing to admit that we all share in the blame, and become willing to work toward a solution...........................together


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## Marg of Arabia

ITA!


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## Changed

Very well said! No matter our stance, it makes no difference if we don't show up. \


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## jeyer

Yes, everyone should vote (I do every chance I get), but what's more, liberals/progressives need to put their money where their hearts are if we want to have any chance of winning back the White House.

The extreme right wing is a well-funded, well-oiled machine (how else would people who hold a very, very minority view come to be in control of the House, Senate and White House?)

Democrats, Independents and moderate Republicans need to step up and financially support moderate candidates, or else the right-wing takeover of our country is going to continue. And God only knows where it will end.


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## Changed

I still can't decide who i'll vote for because of a few issues.


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## Dale

Quote:

..would you let abortion be the issue that overturns all others? I know no one here will understand this, but I would HAVE to. It's an issue that's very close to my heart. I couldn't in good conscience vote for someone who intended to allow it's progression in any way. I still can't decide who i'll vote for because of a few issues.
I am not happy with the presidential candidate I plan to vote for, but I can vote for him in good conscience. If you cannot in good conscience vote for anyone on the ballot , write someone in. Your own name if need be. If write-ins are not an option, vote for all the local and statewide candidates that you can vote for in good conscience and leave the presidential slot blank.

edited for clarity of thought


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## Dale

So .. here's my take on what's wrong with Americans: we demonize our adversaries and don't try to understand what's important to them. Whatever happened to "Know thine enemy!"? Isn't that good advice anymore? When 911 happened I started thinking about America's relations with Arab peoples. It's obviously important to understand why this happened .. why were so many people prepared to give their lives for this cause? Gee, what does the president have to say about that? "They hate us because they hate freedom." Remember that? That is what he said. And if indeed your adversary hates you for such irrational causes, your only option is to do whatever it takes to defeat him. No thoughts of compromise, negotiation or altering the behaviour that has inspired your adversary to become your enemy .. no. That's not possible when the causes are so irrational. One of the things I have enjoyed so much about Marg of Arabia has been the perspective she offers on the Arab point of view. She understands why Arabs are angry with us. And it's not because they hate freedom, is it Marg? But perhaps this administration is learning something. Why just a week or so ago, Condoleeza Rice was testifying before the 911 panel. She's got a PhD! She should come up with something a little more insightful than "They hate us because they hate freedom." So what was her analysis? "They attacked us because of who we are." WOW! I wish I had a PhD!

Here's what Osama Bin Laden had to say about it. http://www.globalsecurity.org/securi...021120-ubl.htm


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## Marg of Arabia

Thanks Dale!

Good post!


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## Snowy Owl

What is wrong with Americans?
Can I answer twice, please!
You take yourselves to damn seriously.


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## calgal007

Dale, you said a mouthful. Thank you for putting it so well.


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