# Why do people work their butts off to do something no one wants?



## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

I mean, I can see not co-sleeping if your baby *hates* it. But what is up with all the people who basically torture their infants and themselves just to avoid having their child in bed with them? Do I just not get it because I'm lazy? I am lazy, given a choice between doing something the hard way and doing it the easy way, I am all for easy. I mean, that's why I've been trying to be better at maintaining the house, it is just plain annoying to have to clean a huge mess. I do laundry each week so I don't have to wash more than two loads (that'll increase after kids







). I can live comfortably without stressing out, so I just don't understand people who deliberately add stress to their lives by letting (read: forcing) their babies to cry.

Sorry, I'm just the tiniest bit miffed about Rosa Brooks's article from the L.A. Times that was partially posted on the Hathor comic website.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Unfortunatly, I think it's laziness on their part as well. From what I can see alot are not bothered by a crying babe or they move the babe to where they can't hear it...then go to sleep easily themselves. Laziness of a much worse kind.









Not everyone, of course, but enough...


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

I've never been able to figure that one out, sapphire. For me, it's always just been so much more enjoyable to go with the flow and do what comes naturally than do something arbitrary or we're "supposed to." It's SO much more work to go against biology and instincts, IMO. Having children is not easy by any stretch of the imagination, but co-sleeping is so much easier than getting up out of bed or ignoring a crying baby!

In our culture, it seems families are set up for heartache and disappointment because conventional wisdom (babies should sleep through the night at four months) is so opposite from ancient wisdom (babies do things as they're ready)!

I've gone from calling myself the lazy mom to the relaxed mom. Apparently, relaxed gets much better press


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## bluets (Mar 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia*
I've gone from calling myself the lazy mom to the relaxed mom. Apparently, relaxed gets much better press









oooo.... i've got to remember that one!


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## geek_the_girl (Apr 12, 2006)

Cmon..Dont you know that once you put them IN your bed you will never get them out!?
Geesh!


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## odenata (Feb 1, 2005)

For those of you who hadn't read the article mentioned, here's the link.

Bah. I'll avoid any other comment on the article b/c it would involve using words very much against the UA.

Anyway, I think people do it b/c it's what they've been told to do. It's what _everyone_ does. And the AAP says that co-sleeping isn't safe (another bah). And your baby _has_ to learn to be independent. You're really helping them by completely ignoring them.







:

I think people have been so trained to think their instincts are wrong (especially parenting instincts) that they just don't do what comes naturally.


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## fek&fuzz (Jun 19, 2005)

A lollipop?







: Loving your baby is equivilant to giving them too much of an unhealthy thing and causing cavities? mmm, yeah, sounds about right.


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Our DS usually sleeps in his crib because it's easier for all of us. Believe me, I WANTED cosleeping to be the easy and natural thing, but it wasn't for us.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia*
I've never been able to figure that one out, sapphire. For me, it's always just been so much more enjoyable to go with the flow and do what comes naturally than do something arbitrary or we're "supposed to."

That sounds to me like a conflicting goal with the state goal of this forum - to encourage cosleeping (whether it's easy or not). I guess I don't get why you support going with the flow when it means cosleeping, but not when it means crib sleeping.


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## mom2owen1 (May 12, 2005)

can someone help me with the name of the article? i tried the link above, but not getting any text. i tried a quick search with no avail.

thanks!


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel*
Our DS usually sleeps in his crib because it's easier for all of us. Believe me, I WANTED cosleeping to be the easy and natural thing, but it wasn't for us.

That sounds to me like a conflicting goal with the state goal of this forum - to encourage cosleeping (whether it's easy or not). I guess I don't get why you support going with the flow when it means cosleeping, but not when it means crib sleeping.

Pookel, I don't understand what you are saying, could you please explain further? If crib sleeping is where your baby is happiest and is easier for you---who said I *personally* don't support that?

In my post, speaking from my own personal experience with my own particular children, co-sleeping has been much easier than what the OP was talking about: torturing themselves to ensure baby stayed out of the same bed.

Please feel free to PM me if you have concerns with my personal posts being against the Forum Guidelines, and we can discuss it further


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *odenata*
For those of you who hadn't read the article mentioned, here's the link.

Bah. I'll avoid any other comment on the article b/c it would involve using words very much against the UA.

I do think that article makes a few good points, although of course I don't agree with its conclusion. Extended sleep deprivation can amount to psychological torture. It's not the baby's fault, but sometimes parents genuinely need a break, and you have to weigh the relative harm involved. Which is worse for a baby, crying alone for half an hour or having a mom who's hallucinating from sleep deprivation?

I am *not advocating CIO as a method of sleep training.* But I do think there are times when letting the baby cry so mom can sleep is the lesser of two evils; if she's a single mom, if she has no support, if she has no other options. I remember a period two weeks after Corbin was born when I caught myself thinking, "if he would just die right now, I could finally get some sleep!" Having a mother who's driven to such thoughts is not good for any baby.


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia*
Pookel, I don't understand what you are saying, could you please explain further? If crib sleeping is where your baby is happiest and is easier for you---who said I *personally* don't support that?

I guess I assumed that your opinions were the same as the forum guidelines, since you are the (a?) moderator, and maybe that wasn't fair.

It seems that whenever someone mentions here that cosleeping is really hard for them and that crib sleeping would be easier, the official response they get is "the goal of this forum is to encourage cosleeping." To me, what that says is that this forum, and presumably its moderators, believe that cosleeping is best even when it *isn't* easy and natural, which I disagree with.

If that's not your personal belief, and you're just following rules from above dictating the sort of advice that's supposed to be given on this forum, then I understand that, and I apologize for questioning the apparent contradiction.


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## Daisie125 (Oct 26, 2005)

To be perfectly honest, CIO really would be _eaiser_ for us. Cosleeping is HARD in our household. DS is a very hard baby to get to sleep, and very easy to wake up. Yeah, it would be much more simple to put him in a crib and close the door... but at what cost?

I really don't think mamas who CIO are bad moms... I just think they are uninformed about the damage it does to their babies. For so long it was 'the thing' to do.

And honestly, getting DS to go to sleep is MUCH more stressful for me than letting him cry would be. I usually spend 4-5 hours at night bouncing and singing and rocking... etc. Buy the end of the night I am SO stressed and in so much physical pain, I usually just go to bed with him. But I know the kind of damage CIO does and I would never do it to my son.

(FWIW, my DD did CIO, it took 5 minutes one night, and she never had to do it again, but knowing what I know now, I never would have done it, no matter how much eaiser or less stressful it made my evening)


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

I am ardently supportive of co-sleeping and the Family Bed







My dc have all been happy co-sleepers, for the most part, since the days they were born. I think it's helpful to keep this in mind:

Quote:

The MotheringDotCommune discussion boards serve an online community of parents considering, learning and practicing attachment parenting and natural family living. *Our discussions on the boards are about the real world of mothering and are first and foremost, for support and information*.
With AP, we are in-tune with our baby's preferences. There are some babies that apparently need their space. They do exist; I've read about them







! If this is what is "natural" for your baby---by all means, meet his needs the best way you can! Do what feels right in your heart.

Yes, the object of this forum is to encourage co-sleeping! The scientific evidence is there. The ancient wisdom is there. But, you are your own baby's expert, and only you know what is best for him.

Quote:

It seems that whenever someone mentions here that cosleeping is really hard for them and that crib sleeping would be easier, the official response they get is "the goal of this forum is to encourage cosleeping." To me, what that says is that this forum, and presumably its moderators, believe that cosleeping is best even when it *isn't* easy and natural, which I disagree with.
Well, guess maybe where we're having the disconnect is with the term co-sleeping. To me, that could be a variety of options. I believe that ALL babies should be in proximity to their mothers, whether in the same bed or not. This is, to me, what is natural and safest (and easiest!!!). Does that clear things up at all?


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## mamamelia (Apr 14, 2005)

because it's wrong. it's wrong. it's wrong. it's wrong. it's wrong.

didn't anyone tell you that sapphire?









i have to say i'm pretty tired of hearing "you'll never get her out of your bed" or "it's wrong to have her in your bed - she needs to sleep alone" and "it's not good for your relationship". i mean, if dh and i are ok with it, WHY is it anyone elses business to dictate on what needs to happen at our place when night time falls. seriously why is everyone suddenly a child expert when you have a baby? i guess the same way everyone is a obstetrician when your pregnant.
we all just want to be cookie cutter versions of everyone else. we're all sheeple.

well.. not all of us of course.









and OT -- but why does everyone think that you can only have sex in bed? what an unimaginative world we live in. teehee.







:


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## mummy marja (Jan 19, 2005)

Okay, here goes...it's early in the morn and I'm feeling brave!

It doesn't have to be co-sleeping or CIO. There is a middle road, and for some that is a lot easier. We planned on co-sleeping and did it for 1 month for each child. (yeah, I know, that's not really giving it a fair shot) but no one was getting any sleep, including baby. They wouldn't nurse to sleep and woke up at the slightest movement, which then started the whole cycle all over again (bouncing, rocking, laying down, picking up, bouncing, rocking, nursing, rocking, laying down...) It was miserable and I missed sleeping beside my DH. I was attached to Dc all day long and wanted to have a few hours with Dh, even if we were asleep. So the Dc moved to a cradle right beside our bed, and it slowly got better from there. We weren't educated about co-sleeping, maybe if we had been we would have tried harder. But we did what we knew to be best at the time, and both my Dc are happily attached children. They get cuddles in their own beds (they share a room) before they go to sleep, and sleep the whole night through. That is the best...getting a full nights sleep.


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

I totally agree! People always used to ask me "is he sleeping through the night?" and when I would say "no but I really don't care if he does or not since I'm right next to him and can just stick a boob in his mouth and we fall back asleep" I was the only new mom I knew who got a decent amount of rest. I mean even the CIO moms I know still got up to give their infants a bottle in the night once or twice until the Dr. said "they no longer need nutrition at night".


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## eirual (Mar 21, 2006)

I don't get it either. I was having lunch with some mainstream mamas and they were talking about how they were going to switch over to formula...HELLO, ARE YA DRUNK!? Personally I worked my butt off to get a good nursing relationship. There'd be no way I could give that up at 4 mos becuase I want my boobs back!

Secondly....why make bedtime a battle? I LOVE bedtime!! There's nothing better than settling down with the two bestest people in the world and drifting off to sleep together. And why try to force solids in your child- they won't shrivle up!

They were both talking about how stressful having a child is. I have never been so content in my life. I LOVE loving my child. I admit they come with their stresses, but we've had very few. They were mostly in the newborn stage when I was nursing for 5 hours straight and it hurt and drove me nuts. Now that that's over it's smooth sailing.


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## primjillie (May 4, 2004)

I agree with the mum who said it doesn't have to be cio or co-sleeping. All my children slept in their cribs from day one and loved it. My dh is a heavy sleeper and I couldn't even consider co-sleeping, because he would roll over on them, I'm sure of it. I also have insomnia and co-sleeping wouldn't help with that. I was lucky to have big babies that slept through the night fairly early. But when they were tiny, I would just get up and feed them, rock them and put them back in the crib. They loved their mobiles and their loveys and I never left them to cry. Our house was so little, I didn't even need a monitor to hear them. When they went into regular beds, we laid with them until they fell asleep and they slept all night. So co-sleeping isn't for everyone, and crib sleeping doesn't mean that we are neglecting our babies or making them suffer without us. My children are happy, well adjusted and very loving.


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## FrozenMommy (May 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *odenata*
For those of you who hadn't read the article mentioned, here's the link.


I've always wondered why there's this mindset in the U.S. that you have to "teach" your babies to do things...teach them not to cry, teach them to behave, teach them to be independent. It's as if we're reverting (or maybe never left?) the "babies are born bad and have to be taught otherwise" philosophy of long (and not so long) ago. I can understand someone, after days and days of a colicy baby, no sleep, and no help from family who in their exhausted mind begins to believe their baby is "just being bad" or "spoiled" - but to go in with a mindset like that??? Why would you even have a child if you honestly believe that?
I encountered this mindset a LOT when I was teaching down in TX. Other teachers couldn't understand how I got such great results with my 25+ kindergartners (I basically used a group-version of gentle discipline). Meanwhile they were still putting their kids in time-out corners and sending them to the principal to be SPANKED!!!







:


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## bluets (Mar 15, 2005)

heh... we're in the process of "teaching" our ds to run, talk and explore. my neighbor told me that in a few years, we'll be moving into the realm of teaching him to not run, to sit still, to be quiet and to not be so nosy/curious. i'm too curious myself to stifle his curiosity, so i doubt we'll follow her path.

my ds loves snuggling so for the time being we're co-sleeping (bed sharing). he is getting to be a bit more of a bedhog. he also thrashes around on his more restless nights (totally tied to diet and teething) - dh has bruises on his ribs from ds's feet. but we both just love that little cherub face and the milky breath first thing in the morning.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Thought this might be helpful for perspective:

Quote:

"Once we become parents it is easy to blame ourselves when our children's behavior seems out of control. The pervasive idea that we should be able to control sleep habits leads us too quickly to call night waking a "sleep disorder" and to wonder what we are doing wrong to cause it. Research gives no indication that anything parents do causes night waking. Babies whose cries are responded to rapidly are not more prone to it. Assuming that there is some method out there to treat sleep "disorders" undermines a parent's confidence. Despite the notion that "healthy, normal" babies sleep through the night, surveys of parents show that most babies do not sleep through the night, at least until all their teeth are in.

While waiting for our children to develop physically and emotionally to the point where they can realistically soothe themsleves to sleep, we need to work on our own development toward tolerance, patience, and acceptance of those aspects of parenting that are beyond our control. What remains in our control is the ability to continue to care for our children even though they are keeping us awake at night; to continue to hold to our own integrity as feeling people.

To embrace a philosophy that takes into account the individual needs of each child is not to ignore the unfortunate reality that we need sleep. We need to nurture ourselves in this process of raising children. The key to tolerance, and the natural passage through the nightwaking years, is to observe, accept, and work with your child's own inner rhythms and timetables, which can lead to the understanding that nurturing your child and nurturing yourself are not mutually exclusive enterprises."

*'Natural Family Living' by Peggy O'Mara*


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

This is also an informative link









Please remember that the purpose of this forum is to encourage and support *co-sleeping*, in whatever way works best for you and your family. Sometimes sleeping arrangements take lots of creativity and flexibility so everyone's needs are met. Sleep sharing is to be considered the focus of discussion and the norm. Personal preference for sleeping separately/crib sleeping/etc. is not the focus of this forum, and don't need to be defended here, as we're working to support those who want to get support about and learn more about co-sleeping









Please PM me of BelovedK if you need further clarification...I'm typing while three little ones are running around my chair









Thanks!


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## primjillie (May 4, 2004)

Sorry if I went against the guidelines, but I thought the op was looking for answers and opinions. Sometimes I get defensive, because my kids didn't cosleep doesn't mean we are not connected and that I didn't leave them alone, crying and sad, in the crib. I firmly believe people should do what is right for their family.


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## janerose (May 9, 2004)

You know, I dealt with this with my best friend. She is actually pretty AP about most things, but she's just really off the mark on the whole sleeping thing IMHO. Neither of her boys (almost 3 and almost 6) have EVER slept in so much as their room, not to mention their bed. Both went directly into a crib across the hall when they got home from the hospital.

She would complain & complain to me about how tired she was getting up 3-6 times a night with her newborns to walk across the hall, sit in a hard rocking chair, nurse them for however long they wanted to nurse, then put them back down & go back to her bed to sleep. I finally just asked her why she didn't bring them into bed with her & nurse laying down so she could sleep too. She gave me all the usual "our bed is OUR special place" and "it's not safe" and of course "we'll never get them out". Um...OK....I eventually had to nicely tell her that if she was sleep deprived it was her own fault more or less and to either change her actions or stop complaining to me about it.







:

How's that quote go? That the definition of stupid is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome?

That pretty much sums up how I felt about her "problem".









Oh, and FWIW, my DD slept in a sidecar for the first 6 months and then in a crib or pack n play across the hall to start the night. She still starts in the crib & comes in with us once she wakes up. There is NO WAY though that I would have transitioned her from full-time co-sleeping if she hadn't already been sleeping mostly through.

I AM too lazy (or is it smart?) to do that!

Holly


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

I hope to goodness I get children who love snuggling in the same bed. I mean, I'll experiment with sidecars and cribs in the same room if I have to, but I don't want to have to. Oh, and as long as I'm placing orders, can they also not snore, not kick too hard, and be willing to nap in a sling?


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## Beeblebrox (Apr 6, 2005)

A woman I know was asking advice of some other moms about how to get her toddler to sleep without tantrums. She went on to list all the things her daughter does to stay up (water, food, pooping in her bed, etc.). She says they even tried putting a lock on her door, but she manages to rattle it open. After she finished listing all of this she said, "She just won't lay down. She wants our bed."

All I could think was...then take her to bed with you!!! All of that drama, fighting, pooping, game playing might go away. I obviously don't think it's a guarantee, but it sounds like that *IS* what the little one wants.

DH and I were talking about DD and sleep the other day and I said that is one of the things I choose to not battle about it. I think the power struggle isn't worth it. Babies, kids, adults will eventually sleep.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Baby snores are adorable! DD had a little snore. It was really cute. Her habit of turning sideways in the bed, and kicking dh in the crotch - not so much.

I can't imagine doing anything buy co-sleeping. The only one of my kids who left me really sleep-deprived was dd. It wasn't terrible, because dh took the nighttime duty, when it became obvious that nursing wasn't cutting it. I was recovering from a c-section, so he'd take her and walk around with her and stuff. He ended up just holding her and sitting with her while she cried - four hours every night. _Nothing_ helped. But, that only lasted a few weeks, and then the sleep deprivation stage was over. We don't get quite as much sleep as we'd get if we had no kids, but we're certainly not in the "running on empty" situation, either.

I'm WAY too lazy for "in a crib down the hall" parenting. Besides...those days of having a chubby little baby body snuggled up to me are all too short.


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## BelovedK (Jun 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Snooter*

All I could think was...then take her to bed with you!!!

Exactly!, how much more simple could it get? I realize that different babies and families have different preferences and needs, but, as Georgia said, this is a forum that is here to offer support to families who co-sleep...however that looks to each family. I had one of each. One cuddly co-sleeper and one who needed more space. They both co slept, just in different ways and for different lengths of time, so I do understand both sides. We just have to remember the objectives of this forum


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

We don't co-sleep 'cause none of us sleep with ds in the bed...including ds. He has major sleep/sensory issues. Us being sleep deprived doesn't work as a family. And ITA w/the pp who said it isn't an either co-sleep or CIO thing. We never CIO. We don't co-sleep either.


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## RockStarMom (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel*
I do think that article makes a few good points, although of course I don't agree with its conclusion. Extended sleep deprivation can amount to psychological torture. It's not the baby's fault, but sometimes parents genuinely need a break, and you have to weigh the relative harm involved. Which is worse for a baby, crying alone for half an hour or having a mom who's hallucinating from sleep deprivation?

I am *not advocating CIO as a method of sleep training.* But I do think there are times when letting the baby cry so mom can sleep is the lesser of two evils; if she's a single mom, if she has no support, if she has no other options. I remember a period two weeks after Corbin was born when I caught myself thinking, "if he would just die right now, I could finally get some sleep!" Having a mother who's driven to such thoughts is not good for any baby.

I disagree. I'm a single mom with no help, and I'd never use that as an excuse. I'm taking online classes, and there have been _many_ nights that I've been up literally _all night long_ doing schoolwork, and then have to be up all day with the baby. And I've never let her cry. In zombie-mode, I smile, play, cuddle, and feed her all day. And I feel that it's much better for her than letting her cry. I've never understood the "I need a break" excuse- especially hearing it from some of my friends who have regular help from their husbands and the baby's grandparents, and then I hear them telling me about how "the baby was crying it out for an hour yesterday because, I mean, I just needed a break!"







:
If it's a choice between letting the baby cry and physically injuring the baby, of course letting the baby cry is better. But if a mother is driven to thoughts of hurting her child, I think that's a whole separate issue.


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## MichaelsSahm (May 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RockStarMom*
I disagree. I'm a single mom with no help, and I'd never use that as an excuse. I'm taking online classes, and there have been _many_ nights that I've been up literally _all night long_ doing schoolwork, and then have to be up all day with the baby. And I've never let her cry. In zombie-mode, I smile, play, cuddle, and feed her all day. And I feel that it's much better for her than letting her cry. I've never understood the "I need a break" excuse- especially hearing it from some of my friends who have regular help from their husbands and the baby's grandparents, and then I hear them telling me about how "the baby was crying it out for an hour yesterday because, I mean, I just needed a break!"







:
If it's a choice between letting the baby cry and physically injuring the baby, of course letting the baby cry is better. But if a mother is driven to thoughts of hurting her child, I think that's a whole separate issue.

I agree with EVERYTHING you said.
People use excuses for everything, its a CHOICE not to let your child cry, just like its a CHOICE to let them cry.
I chose NOT to let my son cry it out, because I don't care if I feel I need a break, my son needs me more, esp when he is tired and cranky and wants to snuggle with mom in mommies bed.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

I actually told the three new mamas in my family that if they ever wanted someone to just hold and comfort a crying baby until they calmed down enough to try fixing things themselves, I'd be willing to give them a break. You know, for those times when the diaper's clean, the baby's fed, things aren't too hot or too cold, not teething, and they feel frustrated, I would be willing to step in and give them a chance to recharge. But none of them had problems like that, thank goodness.


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## forshure (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan*
I can live comfortably without stressing out, so I just don't understand people who deliberately add stress to their lives by letting (read: forcing) their babies to cry.

I just don't get this either.

I was talking to an acquaintance of mine who is caring for her granddaughter several hours a day for several days a week. Because her daughter was pregnant at the same time I was, we talked a lot during the pregnancy and after about natural childbirth, midwives, cloth diapering, slings, my co-sleeping crib, etc. And she was very interested in all of this. I loaned her some cloth diapers. I gave her a website for the sling. She was super-excited about trying these things out with her new grandchild.

So, cut to a few days ago...

Her dear grandchild (DC) is now 4 months old. My DS is 8 months, still cosleeping, and we started a gentle, flexible bedtime routine, like, a week ago. He wakes up anywhere from 3-5 times a night, eats, and goes right back to sleep. As far as naps go, we follow his lead. Some days he takes one long nap, others 5 short naps, sometimes he takes some naps in the sling, other times in the car when we're running errands---not a subject of concern for either me or my DH.

So, anyway...

I mention that it might be nice to get together sometime with her and her DC. She lives right across from a beautiful city park, and I'm an easy 15-minute walk away. She says,"Oh. I don't think I can. DC is on a nap schedule, and I have to do this whole sleep routine leading up to the nap, then she cries in her crib for a while, then she goes to sleep, and, then, she'll wake up again. Then I have to start the whole sleep routine all over again, and it takes so much time. If she doesn't take her nap early enough, I can't go out for the whole day."










So, this g-ma is going stir-crazy. She can't get anything done around the house. She can't go outside. All because of this desire to put her DC on this arbitrary sleep schedule during the day! Who is that helping?!?

I told her a little about what we were doing with DS, how he often slept in the sling, and how we were very laid-back about his daily naps. And I mentioned again that, since we're able to go out whenever, we'd be happy to picnic in the park if she ever has the time. But, then the next issue: "Oh, the elevator's broken and it's too hard to carry DC and the stroller down the stairs, and she's too big for a sling..."

I've never been so glad to be a lazy, co-sleeping, slinging mama...


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## JoyofBirth (Mar 16, 2004)

For most people, it's just laziness. After a while a CIO baby learns that they're on their own and crying for their parents dooesn't get them anywhere and they go to sleep on their own at a very young age. A co-sleeping babe learns that their parents are there for them when needed and so parents have to help their kiddos. Which seems right to me. A friend of mine oftetn brags about how she's always been able to just put her baby in a crib anywhere and he just goes to sleep. He's a couple months younger than mine. I have to nurse or lay with my girlie to get her to sleep. SHe let her ds CIO startinng before 3 motnhs and once told me it took her 3 hours of listening to him cry before SHE could finally ignore it enough to go to sleep. Some parents actually think it's the right way to parent. Which I actually think is more the case with my friend. Becauese you know, you spoil babies whenn you do things like feed them when they're hungry and comfort them when they cry.


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## minkajane (Jun 5, 2005)

Everyone seems to think that you just CAN'T let a baby sleep with you because 1. you'll roll over on top of them or they'll roll off the bed and 2. you'll never get them out of the bed and they'll be sleeping with you when they're 10. It's a purely Western idea - force them to be independent as quickly as you can or else they'll manipulate you and be "spoiled."


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel*
I remember a period two weeks after Corbin was born when I caught myself thinking, "if he would just die right now, I could finally get some sleep!" Having a mother who's driven to such thoughts is not good for any baby.

But I think that MOST women (and some men) have had that sort of thought. And you know what? I see NOTHING wrong with it, especially if you vocalize it, let it out, talk it over with people, get it OUT of your system!

I think the stifling of those thoughts, the feeling horrid for it, the thinking that *no one else has those thoughts, something is wrong with me* contributes to depression and feeling worse and worse about things.

To me, it's NORMAL. I remember reading an excerpt of Brooke Shields' book where she talked about visualizing her baby hitting the wall (I had almost the exact same image at one point), and someone convinced her that that was somehow pathological, but I call it normal, and I feel those thoughts come with a desperate urge to TALK ABOUT IT. Alas, we all think there's something wrong with *thoughts*, think we're awful, think we're alone, and we shut it inside to fester...sad sad sad.

*****
I definitely feel that it's a lot easier to not impose things on DS. DH has urges to force things on DS, and it pretty much never goes well. There's one aspect where it works, where DS just wants to be awake with me but he's utterly exhausted*, and there are times when DH does just take DS to walk up and down the dark hall, and within a minute DS is sleeping, complete with beatific expression on his face. But that's about it. I can't even FATHOM enforcing some sort of schedule, that WE chose, on DS, I don't even know how one would do it.

(*I am a lifelong sleep avoider, although I LOVE LOVE LOVE and ADORE sleeping. I always feel that there's a party I'm going to miss out on, if I go to sleep. I was always the last to sleep at slumber parties, I was watching Saturday Night Live when it debuted when I was 5, I would charm my way into staying up up up, all my life. As a child (and even now) the quickest way I'd finally fall asleep was with hurting myself, usually by falling b/c I'm so tired. I recognize these traits in DS, and while I don't mind how my mom brought me up (poor lady, I never napped after I outgrew being an infant), I don't want DS hurting himself when overtired to become family lore like it is with me...so when he's like that we DO take measures to help him to sleep quickly.







: that's a lot of words...)


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## haleyelianasmom (Nov 5, 2005)

That article is ridiculous. So in most other cultures where babies sleep in bed with their parents, no one sleeps? I guess MOST of the parents live their life in a drunken state for giving their wee ones company in the night.







:


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *haleyelianasmom*
That article is ridiculous. So in most other cultures where babies sleep in bed with their parents, no one sleeps? I guess MOST of the parents live their life in a drunken state for giving their wee ones company in the night.







:

"Don't be silly in those primitive cultures* no one ever has to be awake and alert at a particular hour." At least, that's what I guess Ms. Brooks and her ilk would use in response to your comment.







:

*Like Japan.


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## Beccah+twins+1 (May 28, 2006)

I have a friend (in an online forum who I have known for several years) who constantly talks about sleep struggles with her 5 month old. She been doing CIO for at least a few months and I feel HORRIBLE for this baby. First of all the kid is confused because she will swaddle and then decide she needs to break him of that and take it away, she'll give a paci and then decide she needs to break him of that and take it away. She laments that he only napped for 45 mins and "I guess he'll just have to cry" (and I'm thinking..ok he's just not a long napper, big deal!). One night she said "he's been crying over an hour and he can't be hungry, he just ate 6 oz!" and then come to find out she realized she "skipped a feeding" earlier in the day (yes his feedings are scheduled too







: ) and when she finally did feed him he sucked down a bottle. Poor thing cried for over an hour because he was hungry







While other moms in the group aren't quite THAT bad, they aren't against it like I am. They also have a "he just needs to learn" (learn what? to be broken and give up?) and a "you are the parent, you will WIN" mentality. I can't even respond anymore, it just breaks my heart.

I am not perfect, I have made many parenting mistakes. And I am learning so much more with #3 than I knew before (this is baby #2 for her and she did the same with her first). It's been going on for months and I just want to scream "it's not working!" I believe if a baby is crying he needs SOMETHING and his need for comfort is no less valid than his need for food, warmth, or any other basic need. She talks about how little sleep she gets, meanwhile my 3 month old sleeps next to me and I just roll over and feed him. I would love it if she would just scoop that confused little baby up and snuggle him to sleep. I am actually meeting her in a few weeks (we're having another get-together but she wasn't at the first one last year). My baby will be with me (would not leave my 4 month old nursing baby for a weekend no matter what). He will sleep with me, be worn wherever we go, and nursed to sleep. I'm sure I'll get lots of "advice" but it will fall on deaf ears because her way of nightparenting sure sounds a lot harder than mine!


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Beccah+twins+1*
She laments that he only napped for 45 mins and "I guess he'll just have to cry" (and I'm thinking..ok he's just not a long napper, big deal!).

She's not doing Babywise, is she? That's actually something that sounds familiar from the Ezzo horror stories I've heard. They call it the "45-minute monster" - the habit of waking up 45 minutes into a nap. The reason for it is that the first sleep cycle lasts about 45 minutes, so after 45 minutes they're in a light sleeping mode again - and with the Babywise method of not feeding before naps, they wake up because they are HUNGRY. (This was actually useful information for me with my son; if he wakes up after only 45 minutes, I bring him a bottle immediately.)


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## tireesix (Apr 27, 2006)

I couldn't let my children cry on their own, how the hell would I get sleep knowing they are crying themselves to sleep all by themselves..... That is the saddes hing I have ever heard.

I'm an adult and hate crying all alone (so I get chocolate to cry with pmsl).

DD2 had chronic colic, all she did was cry, all day everyday for 4-5mths, I guess I could have just left her to it but I didn't....... Getting her to sleep was a nightmare. I would set up the bed ready and just lie there for hours with her crying in my arms (rocking did nothing for her, sometimes it would be a case of rocking in a bouncer with a vibrating bit, then colic massage, then hold and then start all over again). There were some days when I was just so shattered but still had a 2 year old to look after.

I don't think CIO would have made a difference to either of my little ones, I couldn't do it anyway despite all the 'advice' I was given because a) I thought it was bad advice and b) I am my own parent, I am not going to do something I think is bad just cos my granny did it etc (it helps knowing my family completely sucked at being parents, I know now what not to do!!!!).


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## Beccah+twins+1 (May 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pookel*
She's not doing Babywise, is she? That's actually something that sounds familiar from the Ezzo horror stories I've heard. They call it the "45-minute monster" - the habit of waking up 45 minutes into a nap. The reason for it is that the first sleep cycle lasts about 45 minutes, so after 45 minutes they're in a light sleeping mode again - and with the Babywise method of not feeding before naps, they wake up because they are HUNGRY. (This was actually useful information for me with my son; if he wakes up after only 45 minutes, I bring him a bottle immediately.)

Yup I believe she is doing babywise (she has mentioned the 45 minute nap monster). It's funny because when my girls were young I heard about the "eat, activity, sleep" and it sounded good to me. It helped me know what to expect next, but I didn't use it to get on a schedule, it was very flexible. I have always let my babies sleep when they were tired and for as long as they needed. However we quickly found out that eat, activity, EAT, sleep worked for us! The babies napped longer because they fell asleep eating and had a full belly before a nap. Of course I was breaking the cardinal rule of never put your baby down asleep.

Anyway I was out at a dinner recently with other moms of twins and a friend was counseling a new mom of twins on sleep and I mentioned the eat/activity/sleep and she said "oh did you do babywise too?" and I said "no, never read the book but someone told me about that, except we fed them again before naps and bedtime" and she said "oh nooooo, you never feed them again". And I was like "well, it worked for us, they napped longer and everyone was happy and they're great sleepers now" and left it at that.

This same new mom of twins who was receiving this advice just recently asked for sleep advice on our yahoo group and the babywise mom told her it was ok to let her 3 month old baby who was 2 months premature CIO. I told her to follow her mom instinct, there's nothing wrong with cuddling her baby to sleep (one of her twins will fall asleep eating, the other doesn't and needs help falling asleep), and suggested she get a sling, and to contact me for advice as I have a 3 month old right now too.


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## mamamelia (Apr 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kmisje*
I agree with EVERYTHING you said.
People use excuses for everything, its a CHOICE not to let your child cry, just like its a CHOICE to let them cry.
I chose NOT to let my son cry it out, because I don't care if I feel I need a break, my son needs me more, esp when he is tired and cranky and wants to snuggle with mom in mommies bed.

and what excuses are we talking about here? i'd like to know..


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

Was there a page to this article I missed?

To me it read as promoting CIO, and they never mentioned co-sleeping.

Or is my sleep deprived brain short circuiting









Quote:

It's funny because when my girls were young I heard about the "eat, activity, sleep" and it sounded good to me.
LOL, me too, only my daughter had different ideas.


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## GavinSophieMama (May 7, 2006)

I'll gladly be the lollipop











odenata said:


> For those of you who hadn't read the article mentioned,


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