# Teaching Abstinance Until Marriage



## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I'm curious about those that are stressing abstinance until marriage. First Question is are you concerned that your kids may choose to marry younger than they would because of their desire to become sexually active? Two, what of those people that may not want to get married until they are in their 30's are you still expecting that they will be virgins at marriage. And how is virginity being defined in your families? As nothing more than kissing? or anything but penetration is ok? Obviously there is alot of stuff in between those two choices that one can engage in.


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## wombat (Nov 3, 2002)

I'm also curious how virginity is defined these days. I've also been hearing and reading a lot about the teenage trends in the USA where they vow to keep their virginity. But then I saw some shows where some teens had some very liberal views on what constituted virginity. So then I was totally confused. Actually I'm still trying to get my head around the whole morality issue in the USA. It's very confusing for those of us who haven't grown up here.

I find the whole concept of 'dating' among high school students rather novel too. It didn't happen in my high school - no proms, no dances (if the school had a dance, no one would have been seen dead there anyway)... Some kids 'went out together' but it was considered 'dating'. I guess my concept of dating comes from religiously watching The Brady Bunch and all those American sitcoms when I was a kid.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Well, I'm sure people can guess from my pervious posts that this is not something I will teach!

Some marriages are really unhealthy, while some co-habitations or dating relationships are healthy. I would much rather have sex in a healthy relationship.

I plan on teaching abstinence (from all physical expressions of affection, not just penetration) until one is sure they want to do whatever it is with the person who wants to do it with them, not just because they think they are supposed to, they think everyone else is doing it, they think they don't have a right to say no, and all the other reasons people often have for sex or anything else.

Whether it's hugging, kissing, masturbating, or intercourse, I think the only reason for doing any of these things is because you want to (and your partner wants to). I also think the only reason for waiting should be because you want to.

Some people are marrying right out of (or even while still in) high school, or they have sex and then think they automatically have to get married.

I think if one chooses to have sex with someone and then regrets it or wishes they had waited longer, it's a lot easier to just walk away from that and move on than it is to leave a bad marriage.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I've been reading Her Way: Young Women Remake the Sexual Revolution by Paula Kamen and it does seem that virginity has been redefined by the younger generation ( I'm within sight of 40).


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## carmen veranda (Jan 27, 2003)

My niece who is 16, told my dd, that her friends from church and her get together and have oral sex in various parents basements. They do this because they want to "remain virgins" and this keep them from "being horny." And the parents are none the wiser. And they can then marry as virgins. As my dd said to her cousin, "yeah, whatever."


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## menudo (May 21, 2002)

I guess the term is "What are you a virgin to?" Most kids I know consider a virgin someone who has not had penetration penis/vagina. Now DH mentioned girls he knew in HD (10 years ago) who only had Anal sex so they could stay virgins and not get pregnan. Pitiful. I hard of this back then too. In many circles, oral sex is as casual as french kissing. So dumbin my eyes BECAUSE it is dangerous disease wise and can carr as much baggage asa penetrable sexual relationship.

Me and Dh are at odds with this issue. But I do teach/plan on teaching my philosophy-for sex "It can and probably will feel good when it is happening, but it comes with many issues afterwards. Yes, it changes things emotionally, sometimes pysically (pregnancy, stds, etc.). I will not lie and say it is bad or will suck, cause that is not usually true. But it is personal and a major turning point in your life. Never let yourself be pressured into anything, including sex. If someone tries to pressure you, they are not worth you." It goes on and on depending...but you get the point.

So although I feel waiting /abstinance is a great idea, iwill not say you MUST wait. That is not for me to say. Ido say you should wait until marriageand/or a very commited relationship. (I am not legally married BTW...)


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## momatheart23 (May 25, 2002)

Both my Mom and Aunt were virgins when they married and they both swear now this is not what to teach. In fact my aunt says not to get married until you have lived with someone. I was a teenager not too long ago and yes the current definiton is penetration. Even my mom who was married in '73, said that although she was a "virgin" they did everything but actual penetration. And she got married right out of high school. I would never teach that you have to wait until marriage(For one it would make me a BIG Fat Hypocrite which I vow never to be). I will teach my children all the reprucussions that come along with sex as well as other decisions(drinking, drugs, etc.) Let them know to wait until they are ready, not their friends or boyfriend or girlfriend is ready, and to have SAFER SEX always.


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## Faith (Nov 14, 2002)

At my church, they have something called courtship.
I am a romantic, and this made my heart melt, and this is what I want for my children (and for myself if I had it to do over).

There was a guy at our church with the girl he was courting. They went to the same Xian high school, and attended our church with their families. After graduation, he asked her father for her hand in marriage, and he said yes. Then because **they had never, ever, ever touched even once** he asked the dad permission to hug her and the dad said yes! (I almost cried at the sweetness and innocense in that!) Then, they continued not to touch. I would see them at church sitting one chair apart (and then closer to the wedding sitting next to each other) and I would almost be jealous of the anticipation and excitement they must have!
Then their wedding!!! It was the most beautiful, perfect wedding I have EVER been at (including my own). It wasn't boring or pretencious or anything... just amazing. They had their first kiss on the alter. Now, that honeymoon must have been what REAL honeymoons are all about! Can you imagine, being SO in love with the man who will be your one and only forever, and being a complete virgin on your wedding night? I think that is so, so beautiful and rare and special and perfect. I think that will add so much to the incredible bond they allready have. They will have that forever. *sigh*

That is what I will teach my children. I think it is completely realistic for them, because of our strong faith. If they get married young, that is great. I would prefer that, actually. What is the point in waiting to get married if you are in love and want to be together? My DH and I fell in love when I was 14. He was 15. We would have gotten married then if we could have. But society doesn't allow it, and I think we would have had a LOT fewer problems if we had been able to. Instead everyone put tons of pressure on us to break up, date (sleep) around, and it was a huge mistake. But even if my kids don't get married til their thirties- yes, I fully expect them to be thirty year old virgins. I am not naive. It is a concious choice people make because of very strong morals and personal convictions.
By the way, we got married at 20 and 22 (almost five years ago) and are still deeply committed, still totally in love, and do not believe in divorce, so despite falling in love young-it is the real thing.


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

I think if you have brought your partner to orgasm or had one yourself, you are no longer a real virgin.

What about if your dd IDs as lesbian or bisexual? What if she has her girlfriend sleep over and you know she thinks her friend is hot?

If she had a boy friend, and wanted to sleep with him in my house at x yrs of age, would I not be OK with that? Then, what about the lesbian issue? no worries about pregnancy, less worries about STDs, but still, sex is sex, see above, my def.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I think if I were to ask my ds to wait until marriage to have sex, I would want to be part of a community where young marriage was the norm. It's hard to ignore the promptings of your body!

I feel that the big issue isn't what is virginity or what is sex or whatever. I mean, I don't have any attachment to sexual intercourse. The big issue for me is, does the child have the self-esteem to feel loved and wanted so that she or he can make good decisions about sex. It's so much easier to wait to have sexual contact if you know that you are worthy of love.

I think as a teen and young adult, i didn't have the kind of self-esteem and self-love I needed. Not that all my decisions about sex were bad. It's just that I think I made some decisions based on my need for love and comfort. If I had those resources internally, I might have been able to make better decisions, or decisions that felt better.

It's not that my child shouldn't have sex before marriage. It's that he shouldn't be pressured into having sex, ever. (Or pressure anyone else, God forbid.)


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

I was a virgin at my wedding and I expect my DD and DS's to do the same.

I feel it is the very best for them.

No worries about disease or premarital pregnancy or any other complications.

Lfe is full of regrets and sorrows. Why add premarital sex to that list?


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## Cindi (Nov 22, 2001)

I'm no where near puberty with my son, but see the issue this way...

It would be very important for me to get across that no birth control (other than abstinance) is 100% guaranteed, and that you take a risk at creating a child. I would want my child to know this risk, and to be sure his or her partner knew this risk, and understood it profoundly, with a game plan for pregnancy. To me, marriage is in spirit more than written contract, and I am not attached to a church or outside system's acknowledgement of that connection. But the alignment of sexual partners is important.

What I find dangerous about promoting abstinence, is that if your child doesn't feel this is right for them, they will find a way to have sex...but will enter into this arena without support from parents, and will not come to you with questions and emotional needs.

Just stay tuned in to where your child is with it, and respect differences of opinion with open accepting dialogue.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

It would be very important for me to get across that no birth control (other than abstinance) is 100% guaranteed, and that you take a risk at creating a child. I would want my child to know this risk, and to be sure his or her partner knew this risk, and understood it profoundly, with a game plan for pregnancy. To me, marriage is in spirit more than written contract, and I am not attached to a church or outside system's acknowledgement of that connection. But the alignment of sexual partners is important.
Whew! This is great, and exactly what I was thinking. It certainly implies a level of genuine commitment before sex.

This whole topic scares the snot out of me though. Can't I just keep them little? Please?


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Actually, Perfectlove.. that sound horrid to me.
OOOh the stress and pressure of the wedding night!
And oooh the discomfort of losing one's virginity on the wedding night!

But hey.. each to their own.

And my ds will have to make his own decisions about his sexuality.

I do not believe you can "teach" abstinance. You can explain it.. you can advise that it is a worthy option... but then it's up to the child to choose it.. or not.

I intend to be very open and frank with my ds.
What I DO hope to teach him is to be honest, honorable and respectful.. of his body and other people's body. Of his heart and other people's hearts.

I will tell him sex is wonderful with the right person.. and that it can be seriously destructive with the wrong person.. and that sometimes it is hard to tell the difference when your body and mind is full of passions and hormones. That's where the honesty, honor and respect comes in.

I will tell him about the emotional and physical complications of sex.

I will tell him that having sex with someone makes you honor-bound to that person.. and to be careful of making that connection unless you are ready for it and you mean it.

I will tell him that abstinance is an option.. and a fine one if that's what he wants. But I will also support him in being responsible and healthy if he chooses to have sex earlier.

I will support and love him no matter what his sexual orientation is. I will never use shame or guilt to manipulate his choices.

And I will hope and pray that the choices he makes are safe, sane and positive.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

In all honesty....we will teach abstinence until marraige. Sex outside of marriage is too risky for one (pregnancy, disease, emotional comtiment etc.) and we just don't see it (as a family) as something that is to be messed with.

I don't want to come off as prudish but if I do...oh well









Actually, I'm allfor teaching ds the poin of dating is to find a spouse. And until you are actually ready to start looking for a spouse then dating is pointless. I'm not talking about a girlfriend in the 3rd grade...but a serious relationship at 16 is stupid. Most likely you won't stay together anyway. My dh doesn't think you can teach anyone this concept, but my mom did...and I did start dating until 20 and got married at 21. I see dating as pointless...and hopefully staying away from dating helps you stay from pre-marital sex...not in every case...but kwim?

I think that kissing is fine...ven though I didn't kiss until dh and I were engaged. But I think sex constitutes anything that causes you to know another persons body in a way that only their dr should know; nudity, touching in appropriately.

I wil teach my children that abstinence is the only birth control that is 100% effective.

I know they might not see things my way, but I would hope that I will be able to "prove" my case to them in such a way that they would agree. If they don't.....then we do what we can.

BTW---I was brought up to stay away from pre-marrital sex and so were all of my friends.....and not one of us "married young" in order to become sexually active....to me that sounds silly...not saying it doesn't happen but it sounds odd. Thats why I hope that my children understand the point of what we teach

I hope all this made sense


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## mamacrab (Sep 2, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by PerfectLove_
*There was a guy at our church with the girl he was courting. They went to the same Xian high school, and attended our church with their families. After graduation, he asked her father for her hand in marriage, and he said yes. Then because **they had never, ever, ever touched even once** he asked the dad permission to hug her and the dad said yes!*
This is HORRIBLE in my opinion. The idea of one man asking another man for permission to touch me is actually turning my stomach. And the idea of this happening to my dd!!!! I have REALLY done wrong in raising her if she ever thinks that idea is sweet, romantic or INNOCENT (its the *opposite* of innocent!)

My daughter will decide who can and can't touch her- it's not up to any prospective partner and it is CERTAINLY not up to her father- dh would instantly lose *all* respect for anyone who talked about dd in those terms!!

I plan to teach my daughter, and my son, about safe and healthy sexual relationships- which sometimes exist outside marriage and sometimes don't exist within marriage! My dd knows I was preganant with her when I got married, and whenever we look at my wedding album together, she says "I was there, too, right mom? I was inside your belly!"

have more to say, but baby is cring, gtg


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

"Lfe is full of regrets and sorrows. Why add premarital sex to that list?"

I guess that is up to personal interpretation. I certainly don't add my premarital sex and pregnancy and birth to that list. Of course I don't regret anything I've done.

Excellent point Dar regarding same sex relationships. Since I'm not teaching abstinance before marriage, none of the questions really apply to me though 

"Can you imagine, being SO in love with the man who will be your one and only forever, and being a complete virgin on your wedding night? I think that is so, so beautiful and rare and special and perfect."

Actually, I definately don't see this as perfect. And the idea that one man asks another for permission to do anything to a woman is completely repugnant to me. Women are their own persons. If someone else is deciding who can and can't touch me that is abuse IMO.

I think dating is very important. I do not think it's pointless at all. Of course I also think that the point of life is not just to get married and have babies so maybe that is why I value dating, learning who we are as individuals before we choose a life partner.

I will support and love him no matter what his sexual orientation is. I will never use shame or guilt to manipulate his choices."

I feel the same way!


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Arduinna_
*
"Can you imagine, being SO in love with the man who will be your one and only forever, and being a complete virgin on your wedding night? I think that is so, so beautiful and rare and special and perfect."

Actually, I definately don't see this as perfect. And the idea that one man asks another for permission to do anything to a woman is completely repugnant to me. Women are their own persons. If someone else is deciding who can and can't touch me that is abuse IMO.

I think dating is very important. I do not think it's pointless at all. Of course I also think that the point of life is not just to get married and have babies so maybe that is why I value dating, learning who we are as individuals before we choose a life partner.
*
I think the first quote is a beautiful and special thing....HOWEVER...the asking permission to hug his daughter....that gives me the creeps. I went out with a guy who was that type of person....and ick...he jsut made me feel gross!

I don't think the point of life is to marry and have babies. I just don't think you should be in a serious relationship until you are at a place in your life that marraige is a viable option. Marriage at 16 (unless you are Macauly Caulkin) is not an option. I dated several ppl before dh....nothing serious....and I knew plenty about what I wanted and didn't want and who I was before I married. I think that some ppl put so much emphasis on dating as a teen that they don't discover who they are. I think dating can cloud your mind......

Same sex relationships....I never even thought about that.......

"when you have brought your paretner to true orgasm you are not a virgin" interesting thought. I had a friend in college that pregnant and they got married because of it and 2 weeks later the baby was lost. When she was telling me about her m/c she told me that her and her dh "got pregnant but never had sex...its one of those things you hear about in health class" I still don't know what that means??


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

I probably won't say anything that someone hasn't already said, but I believe that my children have autonomy over their own bodies, which, among other reasons, is why I decided that I did not have the right to circumcize ds (even if I had wanted to). His body, his decision. Same holds true with sex: although ITA with asherah et al. about educating my kids about the potential ramifications of a sexual relationship, whether casual or serious, in the end it's my child's body to decide what he wants to do with it, and I will have no disappointment in the slightest if he decides he doesn't want to wait until marriage for his first experience.

Actually, the thought of him marrying as a virgin (or marrying a virgin) scares the crap out of me. Perhaps it is a function of my not getting married until age 32, but (no offense to anyone here) I see 21 years old as very young for marriage. I would rather my child separate out the sex from the marriage part, and not be in an all-fired hurry to get married just so he can find out what sex is all about. I'd rather he had practice at relationships, including sex, so that when he does decide to get married he knows what intimate relationships are all about and can make his choice of marriage partner from an educated perspective. It's too important a decision to be undertaken without knowledge of what one wants and needs in intimate relationships.

And yes, abstinence may be the only 100% sure form of birth control and disease prevention, but other methods when used as directed come pretty darned close. I had plenty of sex before I was married and did not get pregnant until I wanted to be. Although I want to warn my son of the risks he faces if he has unprotected sex, I don't believe a) in making sex out to be this horribly dangerous activity fraught with illness, death, and unintended pregnancy, and b) that only sex within marriage is pure.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

its_our_family, you got married at 21. To me, that's young! i got married at 34. My mom waited until she was married. She also got married at 21. Indeed, my dad waited, too. I respect them for that. I think it's fine.

If I had waited until marriage to have sex, I too would have gotten married by 21. If not sooner! But it was not part of my beliefs to do that. My mom did think I should, but I ignored her.

I'm glad I married when I did because I'm glad I married who I did. The guys I liked in my late teens and early 20s would not have been as right for me. Some were just WRONG. I wish I had liked myself more. I don't really regret having sex, I regret putting my heart into relationships (sexual and not) that were not good for me.

Now you might say, "well, in a traditional society, your parents would make a match for you instead." Oh man! that would be the worst alternative EVER! My mother was even more desperate than I was about whether anyone would love me. You would think I was a hideous monster, but I look at my photos and see that I was attractive. She was just worried that it would be difficult for a man to love someone so intellectual. She still gives me crazy advice about how I should defer to my husband's opinions, even though I have NEVER heard her defer to my dad in my entire life.

So I think you can teach abstinence without teaching abstinence, if you know what I mean. You can teach children to abstain from what's bad for them and take what's good, if you can convey that you believe they are beautiful and will find someone wonderful.

so far I'm doing a great job, but my baby is only 4 months old!


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I have a close friend who "waited" until she was married. She quit college (which her parents were paying for) and got married when she was 19. She had her first child when she was 22.

Her husband, however, was not a virgin.

I had sex with my spouse when I was 19, although we were not yet married. We were in college together. I was struggling to pay for college myself, working pretty damn hard to succeed, and very determined to do well. (I was crazy angry at my friend for taking her free ride through college and throwing it away like that.) I also had my first child when I was 22. I married my spouse that earlier that same year, and neither of us had ever had intercourse with anyone else. We do not regret anything about our sexual relationship.

But to this day, my friend makes awful cutting comments about how I screwed up so badly by having, "premarital sex." And she goes to great lengths trying to analyze what it was wrong in my life that lead me to make such a horrendous mistake. And she always throws in a comment about how happy she is that she "waited."

Its awful. I just keep quiet and try to change the subject. But she has never, never, never once recognized that she did NOT wait longer than I did to have sex. She just got married sooner than I did, and that she gave up an awful lot to do that too.

And I might add -- her marriage is not what I'd call remotely "happy." And mine is pretty much fine. Not to mention, we are more financially stable and have many more options open to us as a result of the fact that we finished school...

Of course, I would be as bad as she is if I ever questioned her past, so I don't. What could I say????


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

I also find the scenario PL finds so romantic to be completely horrifying.

I will teach our kids about abstinance (and birth control and safe sex) and advise and hope that they don't experiment with sex until they are old enough to deal with it. Ideally, I hope they don't have sexual relationships until they are college aged at the earliest. I'll make my views known, but it's not my body or my choice, when you get right down to it. I will make it clear that I will not raise grandchildren, which is my choice.

I think the abstinence only message does promote early marriage and to my way of thinking wanting to have sex is NOT a good reason to marry somebody.

My personal opinion is not in favor of young motherhood or early marriage (and I consider 21 very young to be getting married also.) I would hope my girls have some time to go to grad school and/or establish a career before they marry. Dh says he isn't in favor of dating until they turn at least 30, so early marriage may not be an issue.









I also don't see premarital sex as being a "regret or sorrow." I'd regret marrying the wrong guy at an early age much more than a consentual roll in the hay.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

"I see 21 years old as very young for marriage."

Me too. I got married at 29 and now that I'm 39 (in a week) I see how much I've changed in the last 10 years let alone how much I had changed in my 20s. I know that if I had married my live in boy friend of 4 years ( that I met at the age of 20) that would have been a huge mistake. I am extremely happy that I had all the sexual experience ( I had alot) and the relationship experience I had before I got married. And let me tell you I wanted nothing more than to get married and have a baby when I was in my teens and early 20s. Now I look back and see what a disaster that would have been for me. I could not have made a good choice for a life partner at that age.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I'm finding it interesting to read how other peoples' experiences with marriage and sex are influencing their attitude towards sex ed for their kids.

perfectlove, your story of you and your DH is lovely. i don't think most teens are mature enough to make decisions about who to spend their life with, but obviously you and your dh were. i can see why you have no issues with teaching abstinance or early marriage.

i lean towards the other side though, lol. I think having sexual experience before marriage is fine, even positive. I wouldn't want to drive a car before practising. Similarly I feel I have learned SO much about myself and relationships by dating and even having sex with other men. Yes, I have had sex that I regretted, but not b/c it was premarital, but b/c it was for the wrong reasons. I think "the captain" said it best for me: I believe that a good sense of self-esteem and self-love can do wonders for preventing unhealthy relationships.

....and I want to add that I hope we can keep this discussion respectful of everybody's opinions, no matter how they differ from ours.


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Arduinna_
*Excellent point Dar regarding same sex relationships. Since I'm not teaching abstinance before marriage, none of the questions really apply to me though *
So, for those of you that are not teaching abstinence, but are teaching safer sex, mutual respect, knowing theyself so you don't fold under pressure form an insistent prospective love/sex partner, where do you draw the line? Do you allow your x aged child to have sex with the boyfriend/girlfriend, whether same sex or opposite, under your roof, say, in the next room from your bedroom? Of course, most teens will "sneak" the sex. Do it while the parents are out of the house, in the woods, a car, etc.

But if your child is gay or lesbian, do you allow sleepovers with the same sex "friend" knowing your child has feelings for them? Would you make different allowances for sleepovers knowing your child is gay/lesbian? Perhaps not. Perhaps not.

What about these co-ed sleepover parties I hear about, would you allow one in your home? Would you go upstairs knowing that some of your child's friends or your child have "feelings" for another and may act upon them?


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## mamacrab (Sep 2, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by its_our_family_
[B
When she was telling me about her m/c she told me that her and her dh "got pregnant but never had sex...its one of those things you hear about in health class" I still don't know what that means?? [/B]
Megan, this happened to one of my mom's friends, too. It just means that two people are experimenting sexually but, for whatever reason, don't want to go "all the way, " (i.e penis in vagina) BUT the male goes ahead and has an orgasm, and his sperm spill out near the vagina, very near the vaginal opening, and one sperm somehow makes it all the way to the egg. At least that is how I understand it. The chances of getting pregnant this way seem quite remote, but I have heard that it happens. I think you might "hear about in health class" as the teacher warns students that getting pregnant this way is possible, so precaution needs to be taken.

Ok, my OT ramble is over!

And I wanted to add that, like many other posters have said- teaching abstinance is not a goal for me BUT I do want to teach about the seriousness of sex. My mother told me, when I was a teenager, that getting pregnant would change me forever- she said that would be true whether kept the baby, gave it up for adoption, had a miscarriage, or had an abortion...and that is true...


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Dar, I think all those questions could probably take another thread, but I'll answer here since we don't have one.

We have done co ed sleepovers, but sex wasn't an issue since none of the kids were even teens yet (all under 10). Since dd has become a teen I think we did one co ed sleep over and the boy slept in our spare bedroom because the girls wanted their privacy.

I would allow sleepovers of boyfriends (or girlfriends if dd is a lesbian). * I can hear the gasps, lol * It isn't a big deal to me, assuming she is doing it because she wants to and not because she is pressured ect. Also, if I know boyfriends are sleeping iover you can bet that the issue of protection ect is thoroghly understood. I lost my virginity in my own bed at home while my parents were at work, so I know it happens.


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## Faith (Nov 14, 2002)

Just to clarrify, the girl in my story *wanted* it that way. It's not like her and her fiance couldn't have done whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted to do it. They were both over 18, and they both have nice, understanding parents. Actually, her dad is not even a Christain (just her mom and her).

The girl herself wanted it this way. I think as a way to signify her choice to remain pure until her and her DH were committed to each other before God. It is because of her deeply held religious beilefs (that I share).

It's not like it was forced on her, or that she didn't want to. It was more of symbolism. I'm sure it wasn't easy for them, but I know it was worth it.

As for the wedding night sex that was mentioned, I am sure it was beautiful no matter what! They had nothing at all to compare it to (unlike most people today), so it would have been good no matter what! Also, like any new sexual relationship, they will learn and grow together with time.

I also do not think there is anything wrong with getting married young. Honestly, I think a marrige lasting has to with your level of commitment, not what age you get married at all. My DH and I have had our share of hard times (a baby with health problems, financial troubles, and my parents doing all they could to make our lives hell on earth). These are things I have seen other, older couples divorce over. I think the secret to a marriage lasting is just hanging in there in the bad times, because that is what you promised each other. I also have not *personally* seen anyone get happier after a divorce. It just seems to lead to a whole new set of problems with them and their children and their new relationships. I know not everyone will find the right person at a young age, but there is nothing wrong with getting married young if they do.

I feel like I got flamed somewhat, but when I posted that story it never occured to me that it could be seen as offensive.


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## Faith (Nov 14, 2002)

Stongehenge~

By "faith," I meant in our religion, which I am asuming you are not a part of.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I think that wedding-night sex should be really good.

Some people say the first time is good, but a lot say it wasn't that great. Painful or too short.


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## BeeandOwlsMum (Jul 11, 2002)

This is all very interesting to me. I don't have kids yet...so I have 10 years plus how ever long it takes me to get pregnant to really think about this.

But, I can say I want to be muchmore open about it all than my mom was with me. I didn't have sex until I was 17...and a senior in high school. And I didn't tell my mom....anything. My mom's idea of talking to me about sex was to say "don't have sex before your married...it's wrong", or "don't ever give oral sex to a man, it's degrading." My mom has some sex issues, which she managed to pass to me in a lot of cases. But anyway...
My first time was mostly just to get it over with...Everyone around me said it was awful the first time and I was just at the point of not wanting to have that hanging over my head. But I knew what I was doing, and we used protection and were always very safe about it.

I want my kids to know that there is nothing wrong with sex, and to trust themselves. They will know when they aren't comfortable with it, and when they are. I plan on making my girls memorize Taking Charge of Your Fertility...and the boys had better know most of it as well. In this day and age there is no excuse for unwanted pregnancy, IMO.

I want them to learn respect for the other person. I want them to have respect for themselves. I want them to know they can come to me whenever about whatever and I will help them.
But ultimately, they are people with their own privacy issues and their own feelings about the whole thing. And they are going to do what they feel necessary. And thatmay include never ever talking to me about it. My mom wanted things too, and if my kids are anywhere near as strong willed as I was....it won't matter what I want.

As for sleepover of girlfriends/boyfriends....still torn on that. I think ultimately it will depend on whether or not I approve of the relationship, or the bf/gf. Sounds petty, I know, but they are going to do it anyway, and if I don't like the partner, I don't have to allow it in my house while I am home. and the whole gay thing - not an issue for me...I am bi - my kids can sleep with whatever gender turns their crank.

As for the virgins when married scenario above...eeek. Lovely concept...bad in reality. The first time having sex for me was NOT romantic, it was akward, painful, confusing, messy...and not a whole heck of a lot of fun. I would never recommend that my kids be virgins until they are married. I think like everything, the relationships you have prior to your marraige greatly shape and influence who you are. I can't imagine never having a relationship with anyone other than my husband, i wouldn't be me. I wouldn't have learned nearly as much from others, about others...and frankly I might be married to a real schmuck because I had not learned to spot them a mile away like I can now.

Anyway....







enough from the chick without kids.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

great discussion!

I only wanted to add that I think it can be very useful for teenagers to have serious boy/grilfriends even though they are not yet on the marriage market. I learned so damn much from the relationship with my serious h.s. boyfreind (it wasn't a sexual relationship as defined above as penetration, organism, or oral sex - though there was a lot of heavy petting). It was wonderful to be so close to someone at such an akward, insecure age. I weatehred teenage angst very well because of it. I had close girlfriends, but the level of total acceptance just wasn't the same.

And seriously girlfriends can be GREAT for teenage boys since they don't tend to form close relationships with other boys (at least the boys I knew weren't more than hang-out buddies to each other). Now my brother did fine with close girls-as friends as opposed to a close girlfriend - and aparently that is very common now (whereas when I was in HS it wasn't so much).

Yes always the danger that lives could derail from a pregnancy that comes with the sex that typically comes with a serious relationship (in h.s. and otherwise). Though that is more rare than not, I think. All of my 4 close girlfriends had serious boyfriends in h.s., all except me had sex, one had an abortion senior year, all married in thier late twenties, early thirties to different people and are happy and not regretful of thier early experiences.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

I would not allow participation in the co-ed sleep overs.

The co-ed sleepover thing hit my teenaged niece's crowd. My sister, who is somewhat more conservative about these things than I, would not allow her to accept an invitation to one. She was allowed to go to the party in the evening, but not sleep over. This party was at a big estate, and the parents had rented two big tents (one for each gender







) which were pitched on the grounds quite a way from the house.

My niece whined for a solid week about what a loser she would be, how she would be the only kid in town whose parents don't trust her, how my sister is the meanest mother in the universe, etc. So, at 11pm on the night of the party, my sister drove up to pick up the niece and take her home, fully expecting the girl to be angry at her. Instead, my niece was standing there with four or five of her friends who also wanted a ride home!

Turns out that many of the kids felt uncomfortable about these parties, but felt like they'd look like a dork for not going. Sometimes kids do want some boundaries, and I think this one is not unreasonable.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

PL... no one has flamed you, we've simply responded to your post.
It isn't flaming to say we don't find the story romantic.. or that we personally find something in it objectionable.

And regarding getting married young.. that's an individual choice.. but all the studies I've seen would stack up as evidence against your opinion. Marriages between older people are more likely to last than marriages between people in their early teens and twenties.

Maybe that is less true in a religious community where there is stigma against divorce. I dunno, and I digress.

Back to the regularly scheduled thread on teaching abstinance.


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## AnnaReilly (Mar 8, 2003)

I plan to do like what Asherah described... I want to be as open and honest about sex as possible so that my children understand what they are getting into and can make an informed choice about when to have sex and with whom.

I don't think that having sex before marriage is inherently bad (I did it, with no regrets) but it's a personal decision. I have friends who were virgins when they married, and I respect their decision and their conviction, even though I made different choices.

I also wanted to add my own two cents in regards to young marriages. I got married when I was 20 and a good friend of mine got married when she was 21. We both have wonderful happy marriages and I believe that we both made decisions that were right for us. Not all 20 year olds are prepared for marriage, I would say that most are not. But that said, I know 30+ year olds who are not prepared for marriage. I know many couples who married young that have had long lasting happy marriages and I know many couples who married later in life whose marriages failed. Age is a *very* relative thing...


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## Serena (Nov 24, 2001)

PerfectLove--I'm sorry you felt flamed, although I can see how you would. I think people reacted honestly to that story but weren't overly harsh about it. I have to be honest that I had the same reaction. My jaw dropped and I shuddered. I also found the story really ironic coming from an attachment parent!!!! What is the moral, that _touch_ is bad?? That touch needs to wait until marriage? That a woman is owned by her father and then her husband, and the "right" to touch her is passed from one to the other, but never owned by herself?

I also found someone else's line "I waited to have sex till marriage and I expect ds and dd to do the same" kind of shudder-inducing. I personally don't _expect_ anything from my dd except to treat others with kindness, to be true to herself, and to do her best to be truthful and loving and strong. Other than that, she'll make her own choices (heck, she'll make her own choices about everything!) As far as sex goes: I'll answer her questions. I'll tell her all the biological facts. If she asks my personal opinion, I'll tell her that I hope she has some healthy, passionate sexual relationships before she settles down with a partner. If she chooses to remain abstinent until marriage, I'll probably worry, but I'll respect it.

Abstinence-only education is a miserable failure. Added to that, it's totally immoral--encouraging teens to forsake sex and also failing to give them the information and resources that they need should they choose to have sex. Studies have shown that teens who've received abstinence-only sex education tend to wait a _little_ bit longer to become sexually active, but then when they do, they tend to NOT use birth control at much higher rates than those who've received REAL sex education. Abstinence-only education promotes ignorance.


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## sadean (Nov 20, 2001)

Wow, so many issues and topics goig on in one thread. Let's see:

I believe in no hold bared sex education and information. I think it would be naive of me to think that my kids will wait for marriage to have intercourse. I certainly didn't, but then I came from a place of disfunction (both physically and personally). It seemed that everyone I knew was sexually active in junior high and early high school (probably not true, but it seemed that way). I wanted to know what it was all about and lost my virginity at 15







WAY too early in my opinion now, but certainly was not "cohersed" into it...I entered into the situation with my eyes open and condem in hand. I soon left that relationship and entered into a long term (for hs) relationship that also became sexual. We were together for 2.5 years, until I was a senior and we split up to go our seperate ways for college and life. I dated and had a few sexual partners in my first two years of college, but met my DH and that has been it (there were a few on again off again periods where i had other partners, but once we decided we were really serious and ready for a committment the relationship has been monogomous). We married when I was 7 months pregnant with ds#1. I was 22 and he was 25. We have been married for going on 9 years.

I don't regret any of the choices I made (well, maybe the first one...he was a loser







). They are what have shaped me into the person I am and allowed to seek out the people now in my life. I truelly cherish most of the men I have been with and think of them all fondly.

So where does that leave me with my kids? My oldest is reaching pre-puberty and is starting to learn about relationships and how people intreact. He currently has no intrest in girls and thinks sex is "weird". LOL I hope that he waits for a/the "right" person, but really how do we know unless we investigate and invest in a relationship...that includes emotionally, spiritually and physically. I will teach him to respect himself and his partners, and that sex is serious business, both from the emotional standpoint and the physical consequences standpoint. It is not a choice to be taken lightly and is the ultimate expression of love and committment to another person. It is also fun and exciting and worth waiting for a good match to experience.

I don't know where DH stands on this issue. I was his first serious relationship (i.e. included sexual intercourse...he fooled around with other women before me) and he insisted that he be sure that I was "the one" before we could consimate the relationship. I finally told him that I needed a committment from him and that I needed to know that the relationship WAS going to go in that direction pretty soon or that I needed to move on because I would not marry a man, or invest further energy into a relationship where there was no sexual chemistry or compatibility. He thought about it and took the next step and share himself with me. He was 22. Do I exspect my sons to do that? No, but that is THEIR choice.

JMHO


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

your son is right - sex IS weird

(like two babies on a desert island would ever grow up and figure out that "that" goes in "there")


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## Joyce in the mts. (Jan 12, 2003)

My daughter is 20 and a virgin. She is a fabulous woman, a loyal friend to others and herself. I love her and am awed by her.

When she was about 13 or so, DH and I taught a pagan spiritual philosophy class in town for teens, in which DD chose to participate. I was thrilled by the fact that the older girls and boys (they were 16+) too, really took her under their wings and embraced her, hung out with her, protected her. The girls invited her to have tea parties, play dress up and stuff like that too; it was a precious time for her and them. Can't tell you how much I look back with amazement and appreciation on those older girls who gave my DD so much.

It was very good for DD to have those older girls...who also exposed her to thinking about sex and so on too, truly a gift because at an earlier age, we had those conversations in a context relevent to her. She set her own boundaries about how she values her body, self, and her virginity. And she watched the older girls set about to their paths regarding sex, as well as watching her own peers. She has learned alot. She has also avoided a great deal of the unnecessary and destructive pit falls...STD's, skewed sense of self, skewed ideas about love...etc. She is a smart cookie.

And when the right man comes along, who really does love and value her the way she values herself, she will share herself on all levels in love and trust- JOYFULLY. She has come close on a couple occasions so far, but the guys who are her age or even older always reveal that they just want to get laid, as if it is an entitlement. They reveal their lack of inner development and she rejects it.

She feels that a real man will come along as she walks her path, who thinks along the lines of love and respect...she will take nothing less. And I really admire her for that. She wants to marry, and have children, and that desire comes from a very deep place within her heart and mind.

Her best friend is currently pregnant, unwed, the father is a total jerk and a cokehead...though in all fairness, he is changing pretty quickly as the baby grows and the pregnancy progresses. DD sees how bad and how good the situation is and pregnancy can be.

She is such an observer....and appreciates having watched the realities that she has been witness to.

(interesting aside: I had a dream that I was holding the aforementioned baby, that it is a boy...and very, very cute. Friend's mom was really hoping it is a girl....sonagram says: BOY! I keep wondering WHY this baby came to me in a dream- y'know, one of those very clear, very real dreams...no clue here and that is another topic altogether.)

I think that as a mother I am most grateful for resisting the natural tendency to pass on all that I had to overcome to be able to raise a thinking, self-valuing, self-loving woman who is healthy, and truly ready for sex when the right partner emerges. This was a very hard-fought awareness and conscious choice. I had been incested at 16, by my own father, which caused alot of harm. I also had to just appreciate and learn a lesson from the ways my own mother demonstrated her own issues based also on sexual abuse in her family, relating to sex, relating to self-respect and self-esteem.

I support my DD's choice as to her virginity and I think she will have a wonderfully rich sex life with a worthy partner of choice. By the way religion plays no role in her choice.

Dads play a role in how girls see themselves and value themselves also. Never downplay that. I feel sure that my DH has greatly contributed to our DD's self-awareness and self-esteem and very positively. DH is a great person, a fab dad and so many of our kids' peers really love him. I was there when DD commented to a friend that she loves her dad...the friend, a guy said:"Well jeez...*I* love your dad TOO!!!". I felt very proud.

She is not beset by guilt about sex, and she is not compelled by it either. She like her brothers, has more depth than alot of kids her age.

She is her own best friend, I think. Her peers actually seem to look up to her and respect her and those are the sexually active ones. They wish they had waited to become active. At one point we sat and mapped out the "web" created by the STD's that many, many kids were suffering with, a few years back...it was really crazy. DD is very much aware of the resources about birth control and she has our complete support and assistance if needed.

So that is how it is for us.

Our boys are the same: one is 23 and the other is 18. Neither like the social choices and STD odds hereabouts, and will move on to other locations when their individual times are appropriate to do so. And further they are waiting for women who truly value themselves. I never had to preach. I only ever told about value of self and valuing others. Their peers' situations all through the years taught about reality better than I ever could. Perhaps behavior modeled by adults present in their lives also, had some positive influence as well.

My oldest son was in love with a girl who played with his emotions. He has not really felt inclined to bother too much since except for being friends with girls. He has winter work and summer work, likes to hang with friends, lives in his own cabin on our property, which he built with DH. He contributes to the family, plays guitar, studies computer stuff and has a social life on his own. He is a gentle man, who does love our dogs and animals in general and appreciates little children and would make a good dad one day should he choose that.

Youngest son...well, he is graduating from High School exactly 2 weeks from now. He chose not to go out with girls around here because of the serious STD problem and the lack of understanding about what it is to have an actual relationship beyond possessiveness and sex. He wants NOTHING to do with it till he finds someone with a brain, who wants to share minds, not just bodies. I don't blame him at all.

So like I said, that is how it is for us. I don't say it is the best way but it seems to be fine for our kids.

Well that's all I know...Joyce in the mts.


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Oh.. adding that I have PLENTY of regrets about some of my choices.. sexual and otherwise.

Regrets are part of life and learning. You acknowlege them and move on.. that's how wisdom is gained.

I have no illusions.. that I can somehow keep my ds from making mistakes.
I can only pray he will learn from them.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

I guess I'm an odd combination of teaching the children *everything* I can about sex, how their bodies work, and how to prevent conception and how an unborn child develops.

I *also* believe it is better to wait until marriage to have sex.

Sex is the union of two people "the two become one flesh" this is a physical and spiritual union that should only be done within a committed relationship. I worry how people are hurt by having sex more causally.

To be honest I think my first and second have had premarital sex. But they *knew* what they were doing and I have maintained an openness with them.

My firstborn married when she was 23 (last year) and my secondborn is marrying this month (she's 22)

Debra Baker


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

deleted cause I no longer post about controversial issues on MDC


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Stonehenge_
*I do NOT belong to my father! He does NOT have any say over who touches me or how! The very thought nauseates me.
*
This cracks me up! Because my dad said the thought of someone asking him this type of thing gave him the willies! He said what I do behind closed doors is my business









When dh asked me to marry him he said...should I ask your dad. I looked at him and said..If you ask he'll just say "Why would you ask...I'm not marrying you!"

Obviously no one agrees with my view on dating







Dh said I was an odd duck on that one...so I'm not surprised









I will teach my son what I think is right. If he chooses to not go along with we have taught...there will be dscussion, questions, probably some tears...but he will still be my son. I won't change my love for him because we do not agree. I'll do what I can to keep him safe.....because I love him and will do what is best for him.


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## BeeandOwlsMum (Jul 11, 2002)

Quote:

An analogy is a piece of tape. Imagine that having sex is like sticking the tape to something. Each time the tape sticks to a different thing, it loses it stickiness. By the time the tape, finds the right thing to stick to much of it's stickiness is gone, and it falls apart easily when life happens (someone loses a job, or a child gets sick, or the cute coworker starts to flirt or whatever)
I highly disagree with this and find it a little insulting honestly.

Just because I had sex with someone other than my husband prior to being married....does not mean I have no ability to deal with problems that arise or that our marraige will fall apart any eaiser than any one else's. That has to do with your level of commitment, your relationship, your communication...not how many times you had sex prior to being with your spouse.

It also makes it sound as though your ability to connect with a partner through sex has a limited life span..."You may only have a deep spiritual connection with X amount of people and then sex will cease ot be anything other than mutual masturbation. " Hardly.







:


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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Amelia:

This is from the National Center on Health Statistics:

Duration of marriage is linked to a woman's age at first marriage; the older a woman is at first marriage, the longer that marriage is likely to last. For example, 59 percent of marriages to brides under 18 end in separation or divorce within 15 years, compared with 36 percent of those married at age 20 or over.

This is from Barna.org research on line:

Born again Christians are just as likely to get divorced as are non-born again adults. Overall, 33% of all born again individuals who have been married have gone through a divorce, which is statistically identical to the 34% incidence among non-born again adults.

While college graduates are typically more liberal in their political views and lifestyle than adults who lack such a degree, adults who have a college degree and have been married are comparatively less likely to get divorced. Thirty-one percent of college grads that have been married have been divorced versus 36% of adults who did not earn a college degree and have been married.

Residents of the Northeast and West are commonly noted for their more liberal leanings in politics and lifestyle. However, the region of the nation in which divorce was least likely was the Northeast. In that area, 28% of adults who had been married had also been divorced, compared to 32% in the Midwest, 35% in the South, and 38% in the West.

This is from a study out of Ohio State University:
The probability of divorce for a 20-year-old is not the same as a 40-year-old. The 40-year-old has less of a chance of divorce.

I could go on, because I found this stuff all over the web.
So I'd love to see all these studies that say otherwise.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

If someone wanted to hug or kiss dd, I fully expect them to ask HER! Not me or dh!

My dh still asks permission to show affection to me. He doesn't call up my dad and ask him!

I read that the material used in abstinence-only education is not medically accurate. The diagrams of the female anatomy show no clitoris, and the clitoris is not mentioned in the glossary. Don't our kids deserve to know ALL about the body?

Do people really think that married couples never have unplanned pregnancies that devastate them? Married women also have abortions, sometimes more than one. If you really don't want a child, it won't be easier for you just because you're married.

Also, if one expects a girl to abstain, I say that goes for boys too. I have known married couples where the man was not a virgin when he got married to a woman who was, and surprise! The woman now has herpes! So much for doing all the right things.

STD's can be spread through other means. You can get genital herpes without having sex or oral sex. (If you kiss someone with oral herpes, you can get oral herpes, which you can then spread to your genitals.) Also, there are virgins who share needles to inject drugs. This can spread HIV and hepatitis. Crabs and lice can be spread by making out.

When I was a teenager I was not allowed to spend the nights with boys, not even with my best friend (a boy) who was gay! My brother, OTOH, was allowed to sleep over at his girlfriend's house starting when he was 15. He got a girl pregnant (a different girl) senior year. I never got pg until I was 22, though I had been having sex since, well, before age 15, I will put it that way. I don't think the double standard was a wise parenting style to use here...


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## sozobe (Aug 5, 2002)

OK, let me toss something out there. A lot of the discussion so far has dealt with sex within a committed relationship. I am, thankfully, a ways away from having to deal with this with my dd (scares the snot out of me, too), but one thing I think I would teach my dd is that she is allowed to like sex in and of itself. It's fun. It's long bothered me that there is this whole thing that men just want to get laid while women want this pure, spiritual sex with a lifetime partner.

While I will most definitely teach my daughter about the emotional pitfalls and health risks of having casual sex, I don't think I want to get into saying that the only sex that is ever OK is in a long-term, committed relationship. If appropriate precautions are taken at all levels -- physical and emotional -- I think it is sometimes OK to have what is usually defined as "casual" sex _if that is what she wants._

I just think it is kind of a dangerous trope, this whole idea that men want sex all the time and women will occasionally give in for some spiritual connection (_not_ saying that's what has been said here, btw, speaking more generally), and want my daughter to be secure in her sexuality and have control of it. Women are horny, too, and that's OK.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

I don't feel like looking this up - is it true that college grads are more left-leaning than non college grads?

I'd like to think aso (cause then I'd feel all valdated - see educated people are democrats), but I'm a little suspicious of the stat.

Also, college grad and east-coast/west-coast lower divorce rate probably has more to do with marrying later than political/religious leanings. I imagine these three groups marry later than non-college grads and people in the South and West. Though there may be a connection between less religious, more sexually active, less likely to marry young thus more likely to stay married . . .

I like the idea of young virgin marriages (growing up together and all) - but what a disaster if I had partnered with the man I loved at 18, or at 22 (and at the time I really thought they were the "one"). Took me til I was almost 26 to learn how to pick 'em -and I picked a good one then who I'm still with at 32


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## BathrobeGoddess (Nov 19, 2001)

I have been thinking about the "birds and the bees" for a couple weeks now. My dd is 8 and my DH and I are currently talking about TTC and me charting my cycle. This has brouhgt up some questions from her about when and how she was conceived.

That leads me to my own personal story:

I was brought up in a very strict family. I wasn't allowed to date untill I was 17 (senior year in high school) and I wasn't taught much about sex. Sex was dirty and behind closed doors. Masterbation was shamful, sex before marriage was a mortal sin.

This was awful for me because I was and am a very sexual person. I have had major problems with self-lothing, self-shaming, and low self-esteem due to the fact that I am very sexual.

I have felt that I was a dirty person untill my middle twenties when I got some help for my problems with my sexuality.

I was married at 19 and divorced at 25. My ex-husband and I lost our virginies to each other when we were 16 but we didn't date because I wasn't allowed, we had sex in the car or at his house. I became pregant at 18 (I didn't know anything about birth control except condoms and those fail!) and we married before dd was born. My ex had 12 sexual affairs during our marriage. I only stayed with him as long as I did because of this warped idea that I had only had sex with him so I must stay with him.

So I will not teach my dd they way I was. She will have every fact about sex I can find. ANd we will talk about sex in a nonshamful way.

I was lucky that I had the good sense to get out of a bad marraige, found a great therapist and got my self-worth back.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Great replies you guys!!!

ok, I just had to say this. Is anyone else bothered by the term "pure" in association with virginity?? You just cannot use the term pure without implying impure. And frankly I refuse to by into this idea that someone is more pure or better because they are a virgin. woo, just had to say that.

Speaking again about sleep overs, as I was thinking about my teen years I remembered that I had a very good male friend that I used to spend the night with. We never had sex, as we weren't interested in each other that way. This was in the 70's and we were teens and slept in the same room although not in the same bed. I remember having discussions with our parents about it, and reinforcing that neither of us was interested in each other that way. I learned alot about having a close relationship with a man that didn't involve sex. And I was already sexually active then too. Although my parents didn't know that.

"An analogy is a piece of tape. Imagine that having sex is like sticking the tape to something. Each time the tape sticks to a different thing, it loses it stickiness. By the time the tape, finds the right thing to stick to much of it's stickiness is gone, and it falls apart easily when life happens (someone loses a job, or a child gets sick, or the cute coworker starts to flirt or whatever) "

you've got to be kidding right?? In all honesty, I suspect immaturity has much more to do with relationships falling apart.

I'm not jealous in the least of my dh extensive past experience with other women, and he isn't jealous of mine. In fact when we talk about it, as we sometimes do, I'm happy for the adventures that he has had. I didn't always feel that way though. I used to be jealous, but as my faith in myself and us grew I no longer needed jealousy. This too comes from maturity, I don't need to be the "best sex he ever had in his life", or the only sex he ever had in his life. It isn't a contest. There isn't a limited amount of love in the world, or even love that I or he can give or receive. So I don't need the tape because it just isn't true. At least not for us anyway. I don't limit myself in love like that, and I'm a happy person because of it.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*
I read that the material used in abstinence-only education is not medically accurate. The diagrams of the female anatomy show no clitoris, and the clitoris is not mentioned in the glossary. Don't our kids deserve to know ALL about the body?

Do people really think that married couples never have unplanned pregnancies that devastate them? Married women also have abortions, sometimes more than one. If you really don't want a child, it won't be easier for you just because you're married.

Also, if one expects a girl to abstain, I say that goes for boys too. I have known married couples where the man was not a virgin when he got married to a woman who was, and surprise! The woman now has herpes! So much for doing all the right things.
*















...... NO clitoris!!! what would sex be without the happy button!

Even I DISagere with the whole tape analogy. Even if a person has sex before marriage I can't see how this is true. I think married couples who marry as virgins have issues with sex...even inside of their relationship.

I think there is a misunderstanding of what sex is actually for. I have friends that have grown up and their marriages have problems because the wives have issues with sex. They don't see it as a fun activity to do with their spouse. They see it as an obligation...and maybe that was because growing up we were constantly told...sex in marriage sex in marriage...you do it for them.....

I for one will have the attitude that my parents had with us. Sex is a wonderful thing. Its fun and exciting.....don't be ashamed of your body. I just think it is important to not have a "whatever" attitude about sex. (Not saying that anyone here has said that or even given that impression







) I think it is something that is important enough to wait for.....and I'm as horney as they come







My dh and I fooled around before we were married...did we go to far..probably...do I regret it...some...only because I had had enough self control for 20 yrs and then...WOOOOOSH!!


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## 3boys4us (Mar 7, 2002)

I guess the idea of a virgin at marriage has never been a thought for me. I've never thought my kids would be. I wasn't neither was their father. The fact is that we both had other partners and it has never been an issue in our marriage.

OT: What I find ironic (and it may be my perception) is that when I read posts about marital problems - much of it seem to have to do with partners who place such a high value on their sexual/marital relations that it overwhlems them if its not perfect for whatever reason. IMO the experience of other partners does not make the marital relations less special but more special because we all have learned from our mistakes.

The co-ed sleepover thing makes me leary though - I agree with whoever posted about allowng kids to go to the party but not to the sleepover.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I also do not like the word "pure" as it's like saying there is something impure or dirty about sexuality.

I think what really matters is being a nice person. I don't think that how old you are when you have sex or how many partners you have or when you have sex or the nature of your relationship really has anything to do with someone's character. It's easy and tempting to paint non-virgin teens as drug users, dropouts, or people with no futures, but I'm sure we all know nice people who have sex while not married and mean people who are virgins.

I bet at least half of us here have had sex before marriage. And I bet those people don't classify themselves as losers with no futures, even if they do wish they had waited.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I did a poll about this last year some time. I did a search and couldn't find it, so I guess it got culled. Anyway, it was above 90 % were not virgins when they got married. Not that it matters, but I figured I'd mention it.


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## Serena (Nov 24, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by ameliabedeliaky_
*
And, our relationship is so much better for it. We know how to show love and affection to each other without being sexual. We play around and are affectionate without it necessary leading to sex. I have NEVER once felt used by husband or felt that he wanted to have sex only for pleasure. EVERY time we have sex, it is a spiritual, deep connection, we are uniting ourselves deeper to each other. We certainly enjoy the pleasurable aspects of sex, but it is NOT about pleasure for us. It is about love, and connection, and uniting ourselves to each other. It is always deeply emotional and initimate, never shallow or empty.*
I'm sure for you the success of your relationship with your husband and the fact of your abstinence are closely linked, but I can assure you many people experience exactly what you're describing regardless of prior sexual experience. Although in my case, I actually LIKE having sex with my dh for pleasure. Even, sometimes, just for pleasure!!!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

One thing I don't understand is the suggestion that if you've had multiple partners, then you "compare" them. So your DH would be "compared" to previous partners, so it goes...

This just never happens for me. Sex with a partner is as unique as the whole relationship with a partner, and comparing any aspect of it just seems....pointless. I don't know anybody who "compares", and I know I don't.

************************

mod note: _Loving all the POV here; again I'm going to remind everyone this topic has the potential to become heated. The "abstainers" are a minority here - let's not pick on them by name; keep comments directed to the general audience. Thanks!_


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## Lil'M (Oct 27, 2002)

This whole thread is so interesting. There are elements I agree to on both sides. I personally do think that I want my girls to learn to relate to their partners on an emotional level way before they become really sexually active with them.

I actually met my husband when we were freshmen in college and we got married after graduation, when I was 21. It was definitely young compared to my friends, but when you have been together 4 years, how much longer should we have waited to get married? Not that we waited to have sex until we were married...

My personal opinion, based on my own experience and not necessarily true for others here, is that it isn't necessary to practice sex with lots of partners to get it right with the one you finally marry. The best sex I've had has been with men I had a deep emotional connection with, and who respected me as much as I respected them. And they were both virgins! The men I slept with who were more experienced didn't really care about me and were insensitive lovers. (Ok, you're thinking how many were there before she met her husband? Don't ask.)

I think really good sex with another person can happen when your partner really cares about you. I'm sure casual sex has its moments too, but not for me.

I don't really expect that my daughters will be virgins when they get married or that they will be as young as I was when they get married. But I plan on telling them everything, and I'm trying to develop the kind of relationship with them where they can feel comfortable coming to me to talk about anything. And I will definitely share my feelings with them about the emotional ramifications of sex and choosing partners carefully when they are really ready.

I hope I can help them develop the kind of self esteem that will enable them to make responsible choices for themselves, and not do a bunch of things they regret the way I did.

The way my kids are right now (aged 2 1/2 and 6), anything I tell them not to do they just want to do more, so I'm guessing that won't be a great strategy as they get older either.


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by ameliabedeliaky_
*Actually I was NEVER told "you do it for them" I have never believed that and I don't know anyone who shares my values who belives that. I know several friends who waited until marriage. I have never heard anyone who waited say they feel used, they have sex for their husband or that they "do it for them" Of the people I know, we all have mutally satisfying sexual relationships with our spouses. I nor anyone I know had EVER seen sex as an obligation.

With my husband and I, during sex we do things to mutually please each other. It is about coming together, and uniting ourselves. No one does anything "just for the other person, just to please them" It is NEVER an obligation or something one person HAS to do for the other.*
I didn't say I believed that....quite the opposite. Sex in our house is a fun thing. If one or the other isn't in the mood we tell the other and we go on. My friends all took the whole "sex in mariage" thing as an obligation. that was there own interpretation. Its like they see sex as a duty. They will, to your face, tell you that sex isn't something they find important or enjoy or even remotely find satisfying. I think if sex is looked down on that as a child grows up they see sex as a bad thing...even in marriage.

this is why I think it is important to be honest with your child that sex is a good wodnerful thing...but INSIDE of marriage. just my honest opinion.


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## cumulus (Jul 17, 2002)

"Nearly four out of 10 young women get pregnant at least once before they turn 20." http://www.teenpregnancy.org/resourc...acts/fact1.asp

"The big deal is 12 million Americans--3 million of whom are teens--who get a new STD every year. We now have more than 25 signiificant STDs, before 1960 we had two.
"Restoring the Teenage Soul" MJ Meeker MD

Dr Meeker feels that not teaching abstinance is to fail to teach control, self-control within a culture that generally fails to teach self-control. To not expect them to abstain is to say you do not feel they have the ability to control themselves

My sister-in-law told her two sons as soon as they had a girlfriend, "The absolute worse thing you can do to a girl is to get her pregnant." I steer my daughters towards abstinance. The risks make it a practical matter. The possibilty that they might develop their ability to control themselves and resist peer pressures and keep a longer view of life and gain a greater sense that they control the direction of their lives seems to me something that might make the experience of their lives more interesting, more considered and makes it a spiritual matter.


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## sozobe (Aug 5, 2002)

First, I think that everyone is basically on the same page in a lot of ways. I don't see anyone talking about forcing their daughters to do something (and btw, I find it interesting that this discussion is overwhelmingly about daughters), but in giving them the information and encouragement necessary to make a decision that they are comfortable with. As long as the information is there -- that the 17-year-old who is really, really hot for her boyfriend knows what her options are if she suddenly decides abstinence is not for her, and feels that she can talk to her parents about it -- I have no objection to a position of _encouraging_ your children to do one thing or another. I am under no illusions that I can decide what my daughter will or won't do, I can just give her the tools she needs and make sure she knows I am there to support her.

Second, I understand that the stats were asked for, and I really wish I had time to go through all of them and point out the weaknesses. I don't, so here's a big chunk of rebuttals, from this site. It refers to a specific study that I don't think was mentioned in ameliabediliaky's stats, but is very much along the same lines:

- Many of the media reports about the study exaggerate the link between cohabitation and divorce. The study found a small difference (9%) in the rate of divorce in the first ten years for spouses who cohabited before marriage compared to those who didn't. *However, many other studies find that most or all of this link is explained by the differences between the kinds of people who cohabit and those who don't.* Since most couples who marry today are already living together, those who don't are a more religious, conservative group with different divorce patterns. As sociologist Judith Seltzer wrote in a 2000 article in the Journal of Marriage and the Family, "Claims that individuals who cohabit before marriage hurt their chances of a good marriage pay too little attention to this evidence."

- The study did not demonstrate that cohabitation causes people to have a higher divorce rate. *The two factors are correlated, but that doesn't mean that one necessarily caused the other.* As CNN.com reported, "One of the study's authors said the report did not draw the conclusion that living together before marriage was the cause of the relationship ending. 'It may not be the experience of cohabiting but the people who cohabit,' said William Mosher. 'What we're saying about that is that we think that couples who cohabit before marriage may have different values than couples who do not," he said.'"

- *The researchers found much larger differences in divorce rates for other factors they considered*. While there was a 9% difference in the ten-year divorce rate between couples who cohabited and those who didn't, the difference was 30% by family income (couples with an income of $50,000 or more are much less likely to get divorced), 24% by age at marriage (women who marry when they're 25 or older are less likely to divorce), 14% by religion (religious women are less likely to divorce), and 13% by education (women with education beyond high school are less likely to divorce).

- The study considered only women ages 15-44.

(Emphasis mine.)

My own opinion is that there is not enough solid evidence showing the positives or negatives of cohabitation before marriage -- it is too individualized. Good for some, not for others. I definitely don't think it should be forbidden, but don't think it should be required, either. To each his/ her own.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

"Most couples who live together never end up getting married, but those who do tie the knot are almost twice as likely to divorce as couples who don't live together before marriage"ii Bumpass and Sweet 1995; Hall and Zhao 1995

Just to address this one stat posted; I think it's a good thing that most couples that live together don't get married. That proves the point of living together is working. You don't end up marrying someone that you won't be happy with.

As far couples that do get married after living together, I'm not surprised that they would have a higher divorce rate than those that didn't. Specifically because I think that people that marry as virgins and/or don't live together before marriage are more likely to stay in a marriage that doesn't work. They are more likely to have religious or other beliefs that make divorce unacceptable. So for statistics to really matter, they should compare similar types people with similar values. Otherwise it really doesn't show if living together results in more successful marriages. Which I do think it does. A successful marriage is not defined by divorce rates but by the safisfaction levels of the couple.

BTW, I find it interesting that rates of marriage counseling are viewed as a negative thing. Since when is dedication to the relationship to the extent of being willing to go to couseling a bad thing? I think every couple can benefit from counseling at some point. Another example how something positive is viewed as a negative. This just buys into the theory that only "cartain" people or couples have problems and so lets hide ours and be unhappy rather than do something about it and make our life better. confusing.

regarding the issue of daughters, I know I am only refering to daughters because I only have a daughter and I'm not having any more children. If I had a son, they would get the same education and be treated the same way regarding sex.

regarding peer pressure, I wonder if anyone here would attribute their sexual experience to peer pressure?? I know I don't, I had sex later than some of my friends but regardless I did it because I wanted to. We actually didn't talk about who was having sex that much, so maybe my situation was unique?


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## t-elaine (Feb 6, 2003)

actually, PL, i found the story very beautiful...ya know how that first kiss feels...that would make the wedding day that much more memorable and meaningful.
I wish that my dh had been my first...we even lived together before we got married...he did ask my father for his blessing to marry me. I found it to be very gentlemanly and chivalrous.
I expect my dc to keep their bodies as their own until they are married. courting would be my ideal for their future "dating" time.
I believe that if a child is raised with the idea of abstinance while having their feelings explained from a biblical viewpont and isn't ever given the idea to have pre-marital sex...it will not be a problem.
...my dc will be hs and sheltered....
aren't I evil...
As for what some of the other posts said about the groom asking permission....because of my Xian beliefs, I believe that our children are born to be under the protection of the father until the day which either our daughters move under teh protection of their husbands or our sons marry and become the protectors of their wives and children.
Yes, I also believe that women should submit themselves to thier husbands.


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## indiegirl (Apr 15, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by PerfectLove_
*
The girl herself wanted it this way. I think as a way to signify her choice to remain pure until her and her DH were committed to each other before God. (that I share).

*
I don't see sex as impure.

I think there should be a seperate thread for Christians on this topic because the arguement will never *ever* be resolved and cannot be discussed without both sides being offended. We are arguing core beliefs and what is the point of that?

I see this thread turning into a "you think THAT? You are so backwards!" when speaking about Christian ideals. I say this because I am not a Christian and disagree very strongly with some of the more Xian comments reagarding sex equalling impurity, etc. I have to stop myself from jumping on ideals that PL and others hold sacred; and really, I have no place doing that. Not to mention that that is the quickest way to close an otherwise interesting thread.

So, instead of falling into THAT trap, because I know it will never be resolved and too many feelings are at stake, I will leave with my hands behind my back, whistling a cheerful tune.

Anyone want to join me?


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## t-elaine (Feb 6, 2003)

I just thought I would mention that I doubt it was intended to mean that SEX is impure...I know at least that I as a Xian see sex as a beautiful God made thing that can be VERY enjoyable and can bring forth some wonderful blessings...I think the point is that sex before marriage is seen as being impure. Way before I became a Xian I viewed at least some, if not all, of the times I had sex as "impure"...especially with certain people...some of the times had nothing to do with love and were actually because I felt I had to or just for the heck of it. For me the only time it felt truly pure was after I was married...and yes we had had sex prior. (Hey that kind of makes me think of that Madona song, Like a Virgin







)
Another way to word might be "keeping oneself pure and UNTOUCHED" since I think that is the point PL was trying to make...forgive me PL if I am wrong.


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## indiegirl (Apr 15, 2002)

I get your point, t-elaine, I just think its moot. I do not see anyof my prior sexual experiences as unpure or making me tainted in any way. They made me who I am and taught me lessons, shaped me to be ready to be married to my partner.

The Christian way of thinking on this will always be different from mine (and others, I assume) and I refuse to take the bait that somehow I am "wrong" or others are "right." Or worse, that others' ideas on this matter are weird, wrong, backwards or whatever some may think.

this discussion cannot be had by Christians and non-Christians without feelings getting hurt.

But that's just my opinion. I'm not queen of the world. At least not yet....


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Well, I'm Christian, but certainly far from fundamentalist. The more fundamentalist among us do not speak for all Christians.

The vast majority of Christians that I know have had premarital sex. Many teach abstinence along with knowledge about birth control and realize that their children will make their own decisions about their bodies and their lives (and their religious beliefs, for that matter, too).


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by EFmom_
*Well, I'm Christian, but certainly far from fundamentalist. The more fundamentalist among us do not speak for all Christians.

The vast majority of Christians that I know have had premarital sex. Many teach abstinence along with knowledge about birth control and realize that their children will make their own decisions about their bodies and their lives (and their religious beliefs, for that matter, too).*
while I'm not "far" from being a fundamentalist....I just hate that term...even if I am









I agree with the statement above. While there are certain ideals that christians hold to most of us...or some of us....well, there are christians that also live in reality! My own mother...does not live in reality and nor does she care to. She prefers being sheltered even as an adult....of course after her childhood I'd want to forget everything too









Anyway, I'm realistic in what I expect from my children. Of course I want them to see everything "my" way.....but I know it won't happen...thats what happens when we all have a free will (much to the utter dismay of Gary Ezzo







)


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

and if I may be so bold as to say, I probably I know many more people with strong religious values better than you do

oh, I am so not taking the bait on that one, good try though.


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## Serena (Nov 24, 2001)

Indiegirl, you're on the money... this is giong to turn into a Christian vs. everyone else thing. It's totally pointless and will never be resolved. The abstinence faction will quote a bunch of "studies" done by right-wing Christian organizations and think tanks, which are about as indicative of the truth as studies on co-sleeping done by crib manufacturers; and many will continue to find those beliefs close-minded and abhorrent but can't really say so and won't change any minds anyway.

I'm following you out!


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## 3boys4us (Mar 7, 2002)

ameliab: I read your stats but what I find confusing is that those stats had to do with cohabitation as opposed to abstainance. I thought this was about whether virginity (or chastity) until marriage was the issue not whether or not you lived together. Actually dh and I did live together. So did my bro. and his wife before marriage. And now my sis and her bf.

Obviously whether or not you're a religious person makes a huge issue. Those among us who are religious conservatives are less likely to to be pleased about this if their kids do not choose to remain virgins/chaste until marriage. Which brings up the obvious question: Do you think your kids will tell you if they know this is how you feel?

While I am IMO realistic about sex before marriage with my kids, I certainly hope that they will feel free to come to me ( their dad) about their relationships.

Quote:

Way before I became a Xian I viewed at least some, if not all, of the times I had sex as "impure"...especially with certain people...some of the times had nothing to do with love and were actually because I felt I had to or just for the heck of it.
Yeah but how did your parents teach you? Were they open with you or were they conservative?


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

I do not see anyof my prior sexual experiences as unpure or making me tainted in any way. They made me who I am and taught me lessons, shaped me to be ready to be married to my partner.
Yes! Exactly! Contrary to popular belief, I am not "tainted," "damaged goods," and no, my dh would not love me more if I had been a virgin. Oh yeah, I'm also not going to Hell, but I agree that the religious people and the non-religious people will probably not agree on this issue.

Sometimes even people of the same religion disagree on this issue.

Anyway, if I tried to teach a value to my children and they rejected it, I may be disappointed but would try to accept it and see things from their side.

I will VOMIT if I ever hear my dd wanting to be submissive to her future dh! That is, if she even chooses to marry in the first place.


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

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## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

All those last statistics were about living together before marriage, which is a totally different issue.

I didn't say anything about that.. I said that women who married later were less likely to divorce. Those latest statistics do not refute that in any way.

Nor do they say anything about having SEX before marrying vs. virginity. They are about living together before marriage.

Anyway, I too am now leaving the discussion because it has become unproductive.. and I'm sorry if I contributed to that.

Clearly some of us will raise children according to a religious belief that values abstinance. There's really nothing to say about that.

For those of us who do not hold those religious beliefs.. it is a more complex question. And I don't think "abstinance only" is realistic, helpful or adequate to answer it. I will teach my son that sexuality is powerful and needs to be handled responsibly. I just hope he will be an honorable person.. if he is, he will likely make good choices for himself. All I can do is give him good information and my own opinions. It is ultimately up to him to decide what sex will mean in his life, not me.


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

I think all of us would agree that we at least want our children to *delay* having sex until they're older (say older than teenagers!!)

I heard of a study that suggests the best thing we can to to help our children wait is to be close to them...this is more effective in teens delaying sex until they're older, more effective than nagging and preaching.

Apparently, many teens have sex before they're ready in order to be close to someone, if they have a close relationship with their parents this, in and of itself, satisfies the need to be close to someone and prevents a lot of premature sex.

Debra Baker


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

No....i wasn't saying that not having premarital sex is attainable....I did it...even if I did get married at 21...sex was not why (just a wonderful benefit)

I just think that if we teach our children we teach our children...but they will make their own ultimate decision. Which is why we must equip them with everything possible.....


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

I think all of us would agree that we at least want our children to *delay* having sex until they're older (say older than teenagers!!)

Nope, not me...I think older teens (16+) can sometimes be old enough to have sex with others of the same age, but I think it's really too young to get married.

If dd (or a future ds) had sex as young as I did, I would be very concerned and I will do everything I can to discourage that. But my concern would be that they did not really want to take part in it. My concern would be for their happiness and not their moral "purity."

As far as it being the worst thing to get a girl pregnant, my pregnancy was unplanned and unwed and it was the best thing ever!

I think the non-religious arguments raise some interesting points and am more likely to get something out of them. Just like with abortion; I am interested in the non-religious reasons for not supporting abortion becuase I've already heard the religious ones and I just can't relate. (This is off topic, I know, please no one respond to that in this thread!)

Although certain groups of people may not have a monetary gain for promoting their cause, I think mainstream society and popular views have other, more symbolic gains when people go along with them.

And the Psychological and Psychiatric associations do have a bias; they are funded by drug companies. So are the National Institute for Health and the CDC and most university studies, as well as most doctors.


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I think all of us would agree that we at least want our children to *delay* having sex until they're older (say older than teenagers!!)

actually nope from me too on this one. I completely agree with what greasball said.


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## Faith (Nov 14, 2002)

So the opinion is that we Christains need to be segregated to our own thread to answer the OP there?







:
The OP asked opinions on abstinance. Obviously, one of the main reasons to remain so is because of religion. But then when we answer, no one wants to hear it and thinks we should go to our own thread somewhere else.

Maybe the people who don't plan on teaching abstinance should leave and start their own thread, since the OP wasn't addressing them. I suggest everyone go back and read the question.

There are certian practices I have heard mentioned here that certainly make me feel like I would like to "vomit" as well, but I have the respect and decency not to single them out and say so.

People can and do remain virgins until marriage. Sure it is a little harder in today's culture. So is EBF, HB, CD, HS, and taking the time to look into vaxing. But it all can be done, and frequently is. I think there are great benefits to all of these, healthwise and otherwise.

I also just wanted to add that of course you can be conservative AND open. We are extremely open with our kids about all things, and will continue to be so.


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## BeeandOwlsMum (Jul 11, 2002)

PL, I don't think anyone was suggesting segregating Christians. I think the general consensus was that we will never agree on the issues of religion. You and I will never see eye to eye on absitnence. I have been interested in why you would teach that, or why you feel it is a good thing, but I don't agree with the religious reasoning behind it.

I think that is what people were trying to say. That the discussion has degenerated into whose right, whose wrong, who can stomach what.

I can't really see the point in having the discussion without both sides being represented, regardless of whether or not I disagree with anything. I find that discussions like the solidify what I feel I want to teach my children. And hearing from both sides helps with that.

I think that the thing is that we are all good people here. We are all thinking rational adults, who care about the welfare of our kids. No one on this thread is impure, tainted, more likely to get divorced, more likely to have an affair, more likely to win the lottery than anyone else. None of this is personal.

I am finding this discussion interesting, and would hate to see it closed because everyone got their feathers ruffled.

Each person's choice is right for them based on their feelings and their beliefs. I can't judge what PL has done anymore that I can judge what Arduinna has done...because I am not them. I haven't lived through what they have. That is the joy of human...no one turns out the same.

Anyway







, end of public service announcement.


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## Indigo73 (Aug 2, 2002)

This has been interesting - as a former member of a fundamentalist church, who has gone onto the pagan path. I have seen a lot. Both what works in a courtship type dating system (my church only allowed double dating) and what didn't work, do I have horror stories.

Personally, I believe in teaching and sharing all I have learning to my son - giving him the best possible foundation to make thoughtful and thought through decisions. I want him to understand the risks involved, as well as the pleasure.


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## frogertgrl (Nov 28, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by indiegirl_

I think there should be a seperate thread for Christians on this topic because the arguement will never *ever* be resolved and cannot be discussed without both sides being offended. We are arguing core beliefs and what is the point of that?
At the risk of disagreeing with a MDC moderator, I cannot agree with this recommendation.

I have learned much from this comprehensive thread and like indigo, I have my own experiences with the 'courting' system and entire extended family subscribing and participating in that system.

Imo, one of the quickest ways to silence a thread is to invite others to not participate. I wouldn't have gained much if these posts didn't exist here.

Thank you everyone for your experiences and POV.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

One thing I don't like about the quote feature is it can give the impression of singling out people for personal attack.

There are things I have quoted, with or without using the feature, and I just want to say these are issues I would have brought up anyway. Quoting an individual member just lets people know I'm responding to the discussion and not randomly spouting thoughts.

I'm sorry if I have also contributed to things getting out of hand or off topic.


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## t-elaine (Feb 6, 2003)

3boys4us, to answer your question, yes my parents were conservative, but how I viewed sex in general was not what I was speaking of...there were certain encounters that I regretted even before I held the views I have today...for example, after finding out that an ex had molested his sister...I felt what I would consider unpure over that...a guy that I was with that was very controling, etc...
Ever since I became serious with my husband (we had one of those "buddyships" prior to realizing our love for each other), I have wished that he had been my first....not due to a feeling of impurity or being tainted, but because I feel that it would be so much more meaningful to not have the memories of "others" in the back of my head. This is one thing that I do not want my dc to have to experience....I mourn a bit over this sometimes. I do not want to think at all about past guys, but since they were in my life...they are in my brain and memories do pop up. There is more to my wanting to teach abstinence than my spiritual beliefs.
BTW - ameliabedeliaky - (Please know that I am only posting this to educate and not in any way to condemn or judge...something that I strive never to do - this is not to start a whole other debate either) The church of Christ, which is a non-denominational church that is prevalent all over the country, does speak out against and condemn divorce and remarriage and actually takes it further than the Catholic Church does. It is our belief that the bible gives only ONE viable reason for divorce and that is adultry...and the only acceptable reasons for remarriage are being a widow or widower or being the innocent party in an adultrus marriage that ended in divorce. This is the only times it was accepted in NT times and thus is all that is accepted by the church today. It is constantly being preached from the pulpits.
Also I wanted to let everyone know that my posts are meant in no way to say "I am right you are wrong" only to share my opinions...I know that there are many in the world who do not see things as I do and that is their right and choice... I believe must of us are doing what we feel is best and what we believe is right and that is what matters.


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## DreamerMama (Feb 2, 2003)

My hand is aching, I have scrolled through this whole damn thread this morning. I have found in interesting, educating, and insightful. I know no one is probably reading now, everyone has gotten their hands behind their back and twidling their thumbs, all to keep from flaming







.

I just had to share some thoughts, if anyone is still listening. Honestly, even if your not, I am that vain. I love to see my own words







:

What I was taught about sex:
I was taught abstinence. I was also given a pretty thourough sex education by some very fundamentalist Xtian parents. I was taught that my body was a temple, I could not touch it, and I could not let others. I was never taught about bc at all. Abstinence was the only "acceptable" way in our house. I was taught that it was impure to have premarital sex, french kissing, heavy petting, etc. I was taught that anything remotely sexual in the "real world" was wrong. I was very sheltered, very loved and very religious.

Did this help?

I lost my virginity by fourteen. I searched everywhere for sexual things in "the real world" because it was so much fun. I was pregnant at age 16, got married, and had another by 18. Got divorced by age 20.

The rest of the story is much better, but not without a lot of therapy, hard work, and a loving dh.

I am a Xian, I am a mother, and nowhere does it say that I have to let my children fall through the same trap door I did. Love your children and please give them the tools to make life fair.

Jenny


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

My mother taught me that all girls (but not boys) who had sex did not respect themselves and that they would not enjoy it. By this she meant all ages and whether they were married or not. The last time she had a boyfriend I was seven years old, and she does not believe in casual sex, so I really think she has not had sex for 17 years! (Her and my dad divorced when I was 3.)

I really think this is what led to me having sex at age 13. I wanted to prove my mother wrong. I wanted to show that nice, smart people had sex too, not just the degenerate whores.

Later I went to live with my dad and his wife. At age 14 they put me on the pill (not approved for women under 15, BTW!) and dispensed it to me daily, but never said a word about sex. They also tricked me into the exam to get it by telling me it was going to be a school sports physical. Needless to say I was really shocked and had no idea what was going on.

I really think they, or someone, should have just talked to me honestly and given me unbiased info. And no one ever said "You have every right to say no." It was just "If you have sex you're a whore and no one will like you." I thought I was a freak for being a virgin at 13 so I told the guy I had sex with (a 12 year old) that I had actually already had sex with 11 other people. I don't know where I got that number, but I thought he would reject me if I were a virgin.

It was all very sad and wrong - wrong that adults did not think I was worthy of a real discussion.


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## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

There is some very valuable discussion here and I hope the thread can continue in respect, kindness and appreciation for everyone.

I believe indiegirl's point is that this discussion has been had in the past and was an uncomfortable one for many members and guests. It was sprinkled with harshness and intolerance. I don't want to see that happen here anymore than it already has.

Quote:

_Originally posted by indiegirl_
*
The Christian way of thinking on this will always be different from mine (and others, I assume) and I refuse to take the bait that somehow I am "wrong" or others are "right." Or worse, that others' ideas on this matter are weird, wrong, backwards or whatever some may think.
This discussion cannot be had by Christians and non-Christians without feelings getting hurt.*
If you want to continue this discussion, prove her wrong. Go out of your way to avoid hurting someone's feelings. If you find that difficult to do then please refrain from posting to the discussion.

In many ways this discussion is much like the pro-choice/pro-life discussions we have had and very rarely are they had without problems. Indiegirl offered her opinion in the hope that some would take heed and not allow it to get out of hand and hurtful. So though we place no restrictions on who may or may not participate I will say that if you cannnot be respectful and refrain from inappropriate and hurtful comments in response to the opinions of others then I will ask you to refrain from posting to this thread or will close the thread entirely.

So please, continue the discussion in a civil manner. Allow others the space and comfortable atmosphere to share their views without responding in a way to make them feel judged or looked down on.

Peace mama friends!








~Cynthia


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Wow! I'm joining this one late









I will teach my children all about sex, their bodies, etc. I will also teach them that I, as well as the Church/Faith I am raising them in, feel that sex is meant to be saved for marriage. I will teach them all about fetal development, how their bodies develop, how sex feels good, but that I have found it to be so much more than a recreational activity. I will tell them about how other families teach their children, all the things that most on here are saying, so that they know the other side and are prepared to deal with it.

I will teach my children so much about sex, all the good, and all the possible bad. I will let them know that sex by nature is meant to make babies(why do I have a feeling that I'll even be flamed for asserting that?LOL), and that babies are very valuable and should always be wanted, therefore, every time one has sex they must realize, no matter if they are using the pill, condoms, spermicide, and everything else they can think of, that there is always a possibility that the girl could become pregnant, and that that is not something to be forgotten. If they choose to have sex with someone who is not good for them, someone who they do not want to marry, etc. they could end up raising a child with that person as the parent.

So, I hope that my kids will enjoy sex as I do, I hope they will love it and see what a gift it can be, but I also don't ever want them to forget that sex could equal a baby and so if they are doing it, they better be sure that they are at a point where they are ready to deal with the possible outcomes and the person who they are involved with.

I will tell my children that I feel they should wait until marriage, and that they should wait for marriage until they find someone who they truly can't live without and love more than they ever imagined, etc.

I also hope that my children are the kind of people who can learn from other's mistakes, like me, not have make them all themselves, like my dh (not that he's shady in other areas, or even referring to sex for that matter), but that is a crap shoot I guess.

I understand that people who are not particularly religious don't want to hear religious reasoning, and often (on here I get the impression) think that people who raise their kids with religion are "forcing" thoughts on them. I have to say, let it be- there are many thought/beliefs I will "force on them"- I want my kids to grow up to love their religion as much as I want them to grow up and be AP parents themselves, there are many things I want for them, I think some people come from abusive religious backgrounds, please realize that the women you speak to on here are not like your parents, we are work-in-progress AP mamas, or at least I am







I'll just speak for me









BTW- I agree with Amelia's, It's our family's, and others who posted positively about abstinence and early marriage, etc.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Arduinna_
*I'm curious about those that are stressing abstinance until marriage. First Question is are you concerned that your kids may choose to marry younger than they would because of their desire to become sexually active? Two, what of those people that may not want to get married until they are in their 30's are you still expecting that they will be virgins at marriage. And how is virginity being defined in your families? As nothing more than kissing? or anything but penetration is ok? Obviously there is alot of stuff in between those two choices that one can engage in.*
I had almost forgotten that the OP never actually asked WHY you are stressing abstinance/chastity. Am I imagining it or is that the portion that is making this conversation do dangerous?


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

deleted cause I no longer post about controversial issues on MDC


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## mshollyk (Sep 24, 2002)

not if you are gay.

and my dh and i often have sex w/o bc, and there's absolutely NO chance i'll get pg. but HOW is not something i can discuss here









i have much more to say, but typing w/ one hand is tiring...

Quote:

_Originally posted by ameliabedeliaky_
*

THAT is a major reason why I think sex is so special, intimate, important. Everytime we have sex we have the possibilty of creating a new life...Even if you use all the contraception in the world, a baby could still be made.

Even if you don't believe that the unborn is a person, you have to admit that sex makes babies.

The making of babies should not be taken lightly.*


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

true







on your first point
and I think we can all imagine







on your second.


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## Kylix (May 3, 2002)

Jumping in late, as usual.

I don't think sex by nature is meant to make babies. I think sex has many purposes. Sex is also for pleasure. It also is for intimacy. When you look at other creatures on this earth, you can see that pattern. Many would like to believe that other animals only have sex to reproduce but it also used for pleasure purposes.

I think sex is a beautiful thing and that ultimately what I want to teach my children. Personally, I do want my children to wait. Not until marriage because in this day and age, that is unrealistic (that's just MHO because ppl get married later and later these days--it's delayed for school and work, and the world seems bigger and it sometimes takes longer to find a lifemate) But I do want them to wait until they find someone in which they love. I don't have a problem with casual sex but it's not something I can partake in and it's not something I want to encourage in my children. Adults having casual sex doesn't bother me but teenagers--absolutely not. I do want my children to wait until they are consenting adults to have sex.

I can not advise other ppl on what they should want for themselves or their children. But as I am responsible for my own children's sex education, this is what I anticipate doing.

Kylix


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Kylix is right. If sex were only for reproductive purposes, we would only mate during fertile periods, like most other animals.


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## sozobe (Aug 5, 2002)

Exactly. (The bonobos, a kind of chimpanzee and our closest relatives, chromosomally, shed some really interesting light on the whole "purpose of sex" question. Basically, they have sex a lot to ease social, uh, intercourse, instead of using violence to establish social orders like other species. "Make love, not war", indeed!







Studies of other species are always of limited use in examining how us **** sapiens tick, but there seems to be a lot of evidence that sex at least partially serves a similar function for us. I realize this goes against the grain of what a lot of people believe, not seeking to change any minds, just a random thought.)

To clarify something I said earlier, I approach this question as what I would like my daughter to know as she approaches a lifetime of sexuality, not just what she should or shouldn't do while I am responsible for her. And the concept I mentioned before -- women are horny, too, and that's OK -- includes the notion that "casual sex" can be OK under some circumstances. Those circumstances would include a certain maturity that I don't think most teenagers have.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Do other animals have a clitoris?

It's actually something I have always wondered, but I don't want to get my gerbils and check!


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## Katana (Nov 16, 2002)

I'm jumping in here really late too.









To answer the first question(paraphrased): Would I worry that my kids were getting married young just so they could start to have sex?

I got married at barely 22, which was a huge shock to me. I'd never planned to get married, I grew up in a home and around people whose marriages were horrible. Marriage was repulsive to me.

I got married because I adored my dh and couldn't imagine life without him. I would hope my kids would marry for the same reasons, regardless of age. If the only reason they are getting married is to have sex, they can go stay with their grandparents for a week, and that should cure them of that idea.









I think it's my job as a parent to educate them about sex, the physical and emotional consequences, the good, the bad, the beautiful, and the ugly. Also that they be responsible and respectful, to themselves and to others. I want us to be open about all aspects of it. Beyond that, it's really out of my control, and it's their personal choice.

If my kids make it to 18 without having sex, I'll be happy. I was very young when I started having sex. So was dh. I know we both hope they'll be older than we were.

As for what activities they choose to engage in (ie heavy petting, intercourse, etc), that is up to them. As long as they don't force, or are not forced into anything they don't want to do, and they are responsible about what they do, really, that's the best I can hope for. At any age.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

Interesting sozobe. This article talks at length as to the types of polyandry found among primates and some human groups. Part of the hypothesis is that it is, in many circumstances, beneficial to the female and her offspring if several males have reason to believe the offspring may also be theirs. So their fertile times are a secret and they mate with as many males as they can to gain support for their young.

Don't know about the clitoris though.

edited to add:
aha! Other primates do have clits. (YEAH primates! Wooo!) I found a site that included this startling fact:

Quote:

The size of the labial folds and clitoris can vary significantly among species. The most extreme example is the spider monkey, in which the clitoris of the adult female is more prominent and pendulous than the penis of the adult male.
To which I can only say, "You go girl!"


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

deleted cause I no longer post about controversial issues on MDC


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Woah, the things you learn on MDC! A master's degree that includes cow "stimulation." Who knew?

I think an article posted earlier makes the point that some primate males *do*kill the offspring of other males. Which is why females mate with several males, to give them a bond which would prevent this. That was on this thread, wasn't it?


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

deleted cause I no longer post about controversial issues on MDC


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

ITA Amelia again.

That is what I meant too, that in heterosexual intercourse nature does allow the possibility of making a baby(not that I think that is the only result of sex or the only things sex achieves, but unless my kids are psychic....







) and I want my children to know that and take that responsibility more seriously than most people do


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

What do people suggest gay kids be taught? If they live somewhere that has legalized gay marriage, should they wait for marriage? What if it's not legal; should they just wait until they have been seeing the same person for a while? Until they reach a certain age?

My aunt is one of those people who has never wanted to get married or have kids. (And I mean for real, not like me who swore "I'm never getting married/having kids" and then did both when I was 22!) She is over 50 now and has done neither. She has had lots of long-term relationships but her first priority is her career. I don't think it's reasonable to ask that someone never have sex if they are honestly planning to never marry.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*What do people suggest gay kids be taught?*
While the potential for pregnancy is not there, there is still the potential for diseases. So safe sex would be part of my gay child's sex education.

And let's not forget the potential for emotional damage. Fears of pregnancy and STD's aside, I worry for my children's hearts too.

It's bad enough negotiating the fickle teen dating scene, where so many of us didn't know what we wanted or how we felt, without adding something as deeply personal and intimate as sexual intercourse. I can well recall in high school feeling attracted to a guy one minute, then not the next (looking back I can see where I misinterpreted my feelings, but that took experience and maturity). Those mixed messages often hurt someone's feelings (and I was more often on the receiving end of it!). I'm glad I waited to have sex until I was older, b/c I probably would have had my heart broken harder and more often than I already did!

And that can happen just as easily to a gay child as a hetero one. So really, other than the fact that pregnancy is not a concern, I wouldn't treat them any differently.


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## Alexander (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*Do other animals have a clitoris?*
It is my understanding that all mamalian femles do.

a


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## mshollyk (Sep 24, 2002)

i wanted to share my experience:

i was raised in a non-denominational, Christian home. i was taught that sex before marriage was a sin, and that masturbation was a sin. my parents were, however, very open with me about sex, and we could discuss anything as long as the context was WITHIN marriage. as it happened, i was one of those kids who discovered masturbation (to orgasm, btw) at a very young age, and i had a very strong sex drive. i felt guilty CONSTANTLY because i was doing something that was a sin--but i couldn't stop. i was told a number of times that i had a demon of lust, and various pastors and friends tried to cast it out. i had sex when i was 18, and when my parents found out, my bf and i were taken before the pastor. it was humiliating. there was a time after that that my bf and i met secretly and fooled around, and i felt so guilty and so dirty that i came frighteningly close to putting my car into the path of a truck so that i would die. i felt that i no longer deserved to live, since i couldn't remain "pure."

the reason i am sharing this is that you can teach your child that waiting is a good idea, but please be careful to let them know that if they slip up, they are not bad or impure. people are born with different sex drives, and you may not have a strong one, but your kid might. and because of the whole "demon of lust" thing, i had the impression that even having a sex drive was bad. i spent a lot of time begging G-d to take it away from me. i know now that it's NOT, it's natural, and there was nothing wrong with me. my parents love me very much, and so it wasn't some failing of theirs. but it's very easy to give the impression (especially to kids, who are less likely to understand) that sexual purity is EVERYTHING and if they mess up, then it's a reflection on their whole character. the language of the abstinence movement can set people up for failure, so PLEASE be aware of that. teens can misunderstand things like this very easily, and they really are eager for your approval. i don't think you'd want your kid to feel that they don't deserve to live because they had sex.


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## mamagarden (May 25, 2003)

I will teach my children to remain virgins until marriage. My husband and I were both virgins when we got married and he was almost 30. I asked him how he could have waited so long. He said he wanted to wait for the woman he really loved and that it would be worth finding the woman he wanted to spend the rest of his life with. I am so happy it was me. Our wedding night was beautiful and I love knowing we are the only ones we have ever had sexual relations with. I feel deeply devoted to my husband because we share such a special bond.


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## Pallas (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by PerfectLove_
*I also have not *personally* seen anyone get happier after a divorce.*
*waves hand in the air*

Now you do. Best thing I ever did, don't regret it for a moment. Of course, I also don't regret marrying him in the first place, as I don't believe in wasted experiences. I think I could have learned what I needed to in a shorter period of time than I gave it ... but I just hated to give up on the marriage (I'm one of those irritating people who really thinks that they can fix EVERYTHING!). Once I did, it was a marvelously freeing thing. If you're interested in the details of why I left him, I'd be happy to share them -- though I don't know that they're relevant.

Namaste,

Pallas


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## cumulus (Jul 17, 2002)

I agree that sex by nature is meant to make babies. The number of "accidental" pregnancies mentioned on these boards is one indication as is the fact that there is only one 100% effective form of birth control - 100% abstinance. There's a bit to indicate that not just sex is about making babies but the whole person is. Sex hormones effect us; behaviors, contours, thoughts, sensitivites etc., as a visit to any teen dance or charity ball might illustrate.
Also, people's noses I would say are, by nature, to smell with. I can put reading glasses on it, put nose rings through it and rub it on the noses of significant others. Things I or others have found could be done with it. It's for snffing stuff - apparently sex pheromones for one. The monkeys have found another use for their sex organs: social capital or exchange.
During a human anatomy laboratory at Harvard Medical School, televised on PBS, a student noted that if an ovary is removed or doesn't function correctly the oviduct associated with it, the tube that carries eggs from the ovaries to the uterus, will migrate across the body to link up with the other ovary on the other side of the body. One of the other medical students responded declaring, "We are made for reproduction."


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I intend to do more than teach my children to be virgins. I expect them to strive for purity in all things, in all relationships wiht all people. Self control is the root. we want a lot of things but if God has made it cvlear that our thoughts and desires are impure then we need to resist. By pure I mean accoirding to Gods law as it states in the Bible. I suppose that iof you don't hold that as a standard than the whole issue of purity doesn't even apply. We are talking about two completely doifferent things.

It doesn't matter what the definition of sex is. When you start drawing lines in the sand your just going to be tempted to cross them so why bother. Instead I will ask my children to consider thier actions and decided if that action glorifies God? Does it bring them or thier partner closer to God? Does it lead thier partner into sin? Again if you aren't coming from a Christioan perspective this probably all sounds like a lot of wishful thinking or outright hoowey. Alright

A good book on all of this is "i Kissed Dating Goodbye" by Joshua harris. It is excellent and even though I had been married several years it tough me a lot about what it reallyt means to love someone. I wish I had read it 10 years ago.

I was a virgin when I got married. i am thankful everyday for the fact that we waited. Our wedding night was awsome. Full of anticipation but no worried that he might be comparing me to other people he had been with (he was also a virgin) And even without a lot of education on the mechanics we both managed just fine.







picture me and my bridesmaids (all virgins) sitting around the night before the wedding trying so hard to figure out the machanics of it all with . it was hysterical. anyway, dh and I were both 19. yeah if we could have had sex before we probably wouldn't have gotton married as soon, we probably wouldn't have gotton married at all. If he took advantage of my desires for him I would have felt like he didn't love me enough to protect my principles or put my relationship with God before his own desire to cash in. I have high expectations.







He was also the only guy I ever dated. I think people who do decide to wait get married earlier but I also think most of the virgin weddings I have been to the people have a whole different view on marraige than the world has. I certainly don't think it is a bad thing to get married young. everyone I know who got married young (without being pregnant already) is still married today. someof them up to 50 years or so. But they also are all Christians with a lot of other things that would bind thier marraige. It is whol;e life not just the virginity part of it. I do have friends (quite a few) who are pushing 30 and not married and aree still virgins. Yes they wish they were married and they wish they were having sex but the have a higher purpose in thier lives and will wait for God's appointed time. I really admire them.


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

deleted cause I no longer post about controversial issues on MDC


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## sozobe (Aug 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by ameliabedeliaky_
*However, I did want to mention one thing. This phase that you used "but I couldn't stop" made my think that perhaps you might have been suffering from a sexual addiction. Not being able to stop does not sound normal to me.*










Goodness gracious. Yes, it's normal. Yes, some people have higher sex drives than others. And yes, that's FINE. Women are horny, too, and that's OK. (Should I make that my signature?







)

...taking Indiegirl's advice and skedaddling before I completely lose my ability to be tactful. But wanted to quickly support mshollyk before doing so.


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

.deleted cause I no longer post about controversial issues on MDC


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

The only problem with that theory is that shame is something taught.


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

.deleted cause I no longer post about controversial issues on MDC


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## mshollyk (Sep 24, 2002)

nope, no sexual addiction here. i started masturbating when i was 4; should i have been going for sexual addiction counseling when i was 4? puhleeze...that's exactly the kind of thinking that had me in pastors' offices trying to get "demons of lust" cast out of me. the only reason i felt guilty about it was that i was told it was wrong (i was told this when i was about 7) and because my mom kept asking if i had dealt with my "problem." and as far as your analogy goes, well, the way i see it, sex drives are biological, no different than any other biological need, like hunger.
you don't have to eat m&m's, but you do have to eat.

oh and by the way, i don't have problems with self-control. i woke up one day six years ago and stopped eating meat and dairy, so i know from self-control.

i plan on teaching my kids that there is nothing wrong with masturbation, and i'd prefer them to do that than have sex before they are ready.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

"Perhaps if the OP's parents had not shamed her, but rather talked to her, helped her work through her sexual feelings, helped her recognize them as normal and come up with contructive ways of dealing she would not have felt that she couldn't control herself."

Are you refering to me?? Because I'm the OP of this thread and I've never been shamed by my parents regarding sex.

BTW, I wasn't refering to an association with shame and addiction. You were using shame as an example of way to define addiction IE that the person felt shameful for what they were doing. But, that only indicates that someone else (probably someone from their childhood) had a problem. Not the person masturbating or having sex. Because shame is something that is taught from someone else, not something that people inherantly feel about any act.

All this talk about self control. Many of us feel that it is not necessary to deny their sexual desires provided they are done with other consenting adults, or alone. I definately dont' feel that "self control" is needed in regards to masturbation. Her masturbation was/is a constructive way of dealing with her (or anyones IMO) sexual feelings.


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

deleted cause I no longer post about controversial issues on MDC


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by lilyka_
[B
A good book on all of this is "i Kissed Dating Goodbye" by Joshua harris. It is excellent and even though I had been married several years it tough me a lot about what it reallyt means to love someone. I wish I had read it 10 years ago.
[/B]
Just a note....this book was good in theory....but in reality I really didn't like it....even though I don't believe in dating (see above post







)

Even James Dobson (Oh my







) says that masturbation is an ok thing. AS LONG AS it does not cause guilt on the person who is doing it or causeing "impure" thoughts.

My dh and I were both virgins when we marriedour wedding night was far from awkward and even though we had no idea what we were doing...it was still great. I'm still all for teaching abstinence until marriage but if my children choose to not follow this.....life will go on.....


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

The urge to reproduce is the single, biggest driving force of each and every organism in the Universe. It even outweighs the desire for self-preservation.

IMO, teaching children that sexual desire can be overcome with simply the right amount of "self-control" is setting most of them up for failure and the guilt and shame that results from failure (note I said most, not all, thus accounting for the minority of happy pre-marital virgins). I cannot see how you can explain abstinence as "honoring God", or categorize masturbation and fornication as "sin", and then not expect children (and adults!) to bear the burden of shame and guilt themselves when they expectedly fail to "control" their sex drives.

I personally believe that a life without sex or masturbation is so unhealthy and unremoved from human nature as to be practically pathological. The epidemic of priests and other celibate clergy abusing children, not to mention the illicit affairs and illegitimate children documented throughout history, is IMO proof positive that Mother Nature cannot be beaten down. We WILL try to propagate our species, even to the detriment of our eternal souls.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

alright Piglet, ITA!


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## laralou (Nov 27, 2001)

Preach on, Sister Piglet!


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## mshollyk (Sep 24, 2002)

wow,


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Whjile I dont' agree "completely" with piglet..... I have to say







because most of it I do


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

thanks, you guys <blush!>

...i am feeling however, that by stating my opinion with such conviction, i may have given the impression that i think the "abstinence" mamas are doing wrong by their children. we are all entitled to our beliefs, and to pass those beliefs on to our children. i hope that my post above did not come across as a direct attack on that - what i meant was to inspire some thought to those who DO believe in abstinence, so that they can take _great_ caution to ensure their children do not suffer the guilt and shame of "failure" if they fail to live up to such high personal expectations. i know MDC mamas are, if anything, fiercely devoted to their babies, and i hope i didn't make anybody feel that i thought you were harming them by sticking to your faith. i just think you have "a very tough row to plow", to use a biblical metaphor.


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## PJsmomma (Apr 21, 2003)

I was a virgin on my wedding night and I was 26 yrs old. I do not think it's unrealistic.

My husband was not a virgin and he never once pressured me to have sex while we were dating. He knew that I wouldn't and he loved me enough to respect my decision.

A little OT but it was mentioned about educated people being democrats and liberal--ok, I graduated Cum Laude from college and am as far from being a liberal as possible. I think that there is no way on earth that an assumption can be made that educated people are liberal and uneducated are conservative--wow!

Malissa


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## hslingmomof4 (Jun 4, 2003)

deleted


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## Faith (Nov 14, 2002)

Just wanted to add something from the experience of older, wiser parents I know, and from my own perception...
Many of you seem to see it as very hard or a sacrifice for my children to be virgins until they are married.
I do not really see it that way. I think they will accomplish it with no problem (and reap the benefits it brings).

For one, this is pretty much all they know. (Just like my kids do not know who Barney is or what commercials are, etc.) The friends they grow up with will have our values. Their friend's parents share our values. Our church shares our values. What we let into our lives (TV, books, etc.) shares our values. So, to our children and to us, this is completely normal.

If we were mainstream parents with kids in school, I think it would be almost impossible.

Also, God is very powerful and real to us. He is with my children every day helping them in whatever they need. They can pray to Him if they need strength. He will not let them be tempted beyond what they can handle.

For me, I did have sex before I was married. I was not a Christain, and neither were my parents. In fact, my parents were pretty awful to me. When DH (my first bf) and I had sex, it was a conscious, well-thought out decision. I was perfectly capable of deciding not to. It was not some accident. If I (a very hormonal, desperately in-love fifteen year old with an all-too-eager bf and a crappy homelife) was able to step back, look at the situation, and have a rationial conversation about it before seriously considering the decision... Then surely, my great APed, Xian children with a great homelife can stop and think and make the right choice.

I think it is a great thing in life to have strong values and morals. They are not just some hard things you have to sacrifice for for no reason.

This will probably shock people further, but we also do not believe in masterbation (at least for the guys). In the origional language of the Bible, the same word (zerah?) is used for "child/ren" and "seed"(semen). There are other reasons as well, but that is getting too OP.


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## t-elaine (Feb 6, 2003)

EXACTLY PERFECTLOVE!!!!


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

deleted cause I no longer post about controversial issues on MDC


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

I am curious as to how many on here who waited for marriage wish they didn't and how many who didn't wish they did. Serious question, b/c there seem to be a lot of people who won't teach abstinence, who didn't practice it and assume certain things about those who do/did, and therefore think that those who will teach it, will be harming their children.

I know a lot of people on here were taught abstinence and did not practice and are upset that that is all they were taught, therefore have chosen to teach their children differently, so it's not that I'm not hearing that, but I'm curious about my opening question in this post, if anyone wants to share.

My answer, I was taught abstinence, did not act on it, and I wish I had. (BTW- my parents never told me a thing about BC- but I managed to know all about it on my own by the time I was 15 or so, so their lack of teaching me about it, did not bring me to harm(and nope it wasn't taught at school either), maybe I was overly smart back then, surely not now







)


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## Els' 3 Ones (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

Do you know what percentage of priests and other celibates had eliecit affainrs, illegitimate children and abused children. Obviously some did. However, MOST did/do not. It is the MINORITY of priests who were not celibate. The MAJORITY of priests and other celibate are true to celiebacy.
I'll have to disagree with you there, Amelia. Unless you can show me stats about celibacy. Having been around the Catholic church most of my life, I feel comfortable in saying that MOST priests do not remain celibate.

Perhaps you meant to say that most do not sexually abuse children, which I agree with. Fortunately, that does not appear to be a majority.

As for the rest of the discussion................I've only been able to read bits and pieces but it is very interesting!


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## DreamerMama (Feb 2, 2003)

I know a lot of people on here were taught abstinence and did not practice and are upset that that is all they were taught, therefore have chosen to teach their children differently, so it's not that I'm not hearing that, but I'm curious about my opening question in this post, if anyone wants to share.

I was only taught abstinence. In an earlier post I explained how it affected me. I was never taught about bc. Looking back, someone should have taught me about it. I was hell bent on finding out what was so dirty, impure, or sinful about sex. <sigh>

You bet I will teach my children differntly, I would be a hypocrit if I did not. I can say with certainty, had my parents responded to my problems as a teen with understanding and bc education, my problems wouldn't have been so large. My therapy bill might not have been so large either.

Jenny


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

deleted cause I no longer post about controversial issues on MDC


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Jenny,

I am not trying to discount what you have said, I am simply asking a different question, many have stated that they were taught only abstinence and think that was wrong for various reasons, I am still curious about what I asked though, how many who didn't wait wish they had, and how many who did wait wish they hadn't, I am already clear that there are many on here who didn't wait and don't regret it.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

I was raised in an extremely catholic household and was only taught abstinence. I did not wait until marriage and I'm extremely glad that I didn't. My parents didn't subject me to weekly interrogation about it, but I would have cheerfully told them what they wanted to hear if they did.

BTW, I also would agree that most priests do not remain celebate throughout their careers.


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

deleted cause I no longer post about controversial issues on MDC


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## mamacrab (Sep 2, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by ameliabedeliaky_
*
I won't say any of these people have NEVER masturbated. I will say that they DON'T by any means masturbate on a regular basis, and if they did masturbate it was when they were younger and immature (not saying the masturbation per say is immature, but for some people it is an immature behavior), that they don't do when they are mature.*
How on earth could you know this?

And re: the 11 year old who promises to wait for marriage- well, I always thought I would wait for marriage too- but then I matured into a sexual being. An 11 year old is too young to make this decision, too young to make promises about it. Share your values with her, by all means. But it seems wrong to pressure her to make promises about something she is too young to fully understand.


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

deleted cause I no longer post about controversial issues on MDC


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

An 11 year old is too young to make this decision, too young to make promises about it. Share your values with her, by all means. But it seems wrong to pressure her to make promises about something she is too young to fully understand.
ITA -- personally, I would be careful not to solicite promises from a child of this age, about things she/he can't possibly understand yet. Its unfair to require a commitment from a person who doesn't yet know what that commitment entails.

AND -- I wouldn't expect my child to make a promise to ME about sex. To a partner, sure. To God -- maybe. But if my kids have sex, they shouldn't feel that they are being unfaithful to *me.* That is a misplaced sense of responsibility. I don't want them to behavior in certain ways just to please me. I want them to have their own sense of morality and internal controls -- whatever those controls end up being is something they will need to work out.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

_deleted with author's permission_


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## DreamerMama (Feb 2, 2003)

Patty,

I see, in my half asleep mode, I forgot to answer the question. Do I wish I would have waited? No. Do I regret having sex before marriage?No.

Do I wish I had made different choices? Yes.

I feel that most (if not all) of my bad decisions as a teen resulted in lack of information. Also, it was a lack of communication and acceptance on my parents part. Had I been educated properly about masturbation and sex (outside of marriage) I think my choices would have been different. I may not have acted on some of the feelings I had. Maybe I would have decided that it was ok just to masturbate. Maybe I would have decided that I liked sex (normal) and asked for the pill. I regret the unprotected sex not the pre marital sex.

Honestly, I just wish I could have been a normal teenager with normal sex issues. I wasn't bad, I wasn't evil, I was just normal. No, my only regret is living with the guilt for so long.

Jenny


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Amelia,

You will never convince anyone on here that you know people who are celibate at an older age, and that they are normal, you also will not convince anyone on here that most priests and nuns remain celibate, or even that they do their very best to. I also have many examples like Amelia's but I know they fall on deaf ears.


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

deleted cause I no longer post about controversial issues on MDC


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## Sylith (Apr 15, 2002)

nak, typos probable

My parents are fundamentalist christians and my brother and I were certainly raised with the expectation that we would marry as virgins. It didn't happen, and I feel my parents were not only disappointed, but very threatened, by that.

When my brother moved in with his girlfriend at the age of 20, my parents cut off contact with him for more than a year. When, at the age of 28, he and the woman who is now his wife got engaged, she was pregnant. My parents told them that the pregnancy was God's judgement on them for fornicating.

uke

While I was "living in sin" with my now-DH, they tried bribery, manipulation, emotional blackmail, and outright deception to get me to move out. They thought he was the devil incarnate and were not reticent about telling me so. It was not until after we married -- without their blessing or presence -- that they could even see what a nice guy he is, or how much he loves me.

I had sex for the first time at 18. I don't use the phrase "lost my virginity" because it implies a piece of myself is forever gone, and I don't feel that way about it at all. I have had sex with several people. I don't regret it. I don't feel in the least that my relationship with my DH was impoverished, weakened, or compromised because of that.

OTOH I do feel that my parents have lost something. They have done damage to their relationships with their children which may never completely heal. Their relationships with their grandchildren have been tainted, too.

I think that people certainly have the right to teach their children "purity" or whatever, but I think it'd be wise to consider exactly how important it is to you, and exactly how you will react if they make different choices.


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## PaganScribe (Feb 14, 2003)

I was personally taught that I should wait until marriage, but not for any religious/moral reason (at least, not one that was ever explained) -- but because sex before marriage isn't "proper." And I think that's a load of something I can't say. (At least abstinence based on religion has _some_ basis, whether I agree with it or not!) My parent's idea of "discussion" about sex was to hand me a book when I was 14, tell me when I was 16 (after my best friend got pregnant) "if you're going to do this anyway in spite of the fact that it's wrong, use protection" and a whole lot of junk about how "trashy" people who had sex before marriage were. (My mom has a lot of hangups.)

I had sex for the first time when I was 18, on birth control pills, and after having spoken to my bf about what to do if we got pregnant anyway. I feel like it was among the most responsible and best decisions I've ever made, and I had a great time (mind-blowing sex, even though he was a virgin too). I have never even dreamed of regretting that decision -- and no, that bf is not my dh (though he was the best man at my wedding). I've never had the thought that "I should have waited" or that I missed out on something with my dh -- that thought is utterly foreign to me. What I wish most of all for my children is that their experience be as wonderful as mine.

What will I teach my children? Be safe, recognize that having sex can kill you even if you are safe so trust the person you're with (I don't want to scare my kids so badly that they can't trust their judgement of others), and don't have sex with someone you're not willing to be tied to for the rest of your life -- because no matter how safe you are, you can always create a baby. And even if you choose to abort, you might always feel the pull in your heart of what you created with that person. I believe sex is joyous, a celebration of life and of the divine, the closest we come to magic in our lives, something we should revel in -- and I want my children to learn that too.


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## PaganScribe (Feb 14, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Sylith_
*I had sex for the first time at 18. I don't use the phrase "lost my virginity" because it implies a piece of myself is forever gone, and I don't feel that way about it at all.*
ITA! That phrase has always bothered me. It's not something I misplaced, it's not something I mourned, it's not even (dare I say it?) something I valued. It's just a label that no longer applies to me.


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## sadean (Nov 20, 2001)

I'll take a stab and will probably relay TMI, but here goes.

I had an interest in the opposite sex very early (try like 5). I would chase them around the playground and try to hug them. When I was 10, I was beginning "like" boys and was very curious and by the end of 6th grade, had kissed several boys and been fondled by one (not particularly pleasurable, but good for the imperical data I was collecting







: ). In junior high I had a couple of boyfriends who I went rollerskating with, and church and 4-H camp with (not WITH, but were in the same place at the same time). I found plenty of opportunities to "fool around" with them (french kissing, groping, hickies, etc.) without adults seeing or finding out.

In my freshman year I had a "boyfriend" who refused to touch me because of religious convictions and I found it amusing and a little confusing, but sort of a relief. We had intellegent discussion about religion, politics, life, school and it was kind of refreshing though we didn't agree about anything. The closest we ever got to touching was that he held my hand to pull me up a sand dune and kept it when we went on a trip to the dunes together with his family (I moved away after freshman year and they showed up where I was, near the Sleeping Bear Dunes and took me out for the day, but I digress) He let go when he saw his parents







. I still have a deep tenderness for him, even though we were very different people and held very different beliefs because I knew he was completely sincere.

Three months later, after another foray into the world of being fondled by a casual "fling" (a 19 yo GI) at the age of 15.5 I lost my virginity (of my free will, but certainly with his urging to have sex) in the backseat of a '76 Chrysler to an 18 year old senior "boyfriend". I don't really know what caused me to make the choice I did and it wasn't a particularly pleasant experience (he didn't know I was a virgin and wasn't all that experienced himself I don't think...I honestly felt dirty and violated by the experience and did not feel like I had anyone to talk to about it) and I do wish I had waited for my next boyfriend. BUT, it is hard for me to say whether I would have started connecting with that next boyfriend if I hadn't had the experience I had with the first (who turned out possesive and weird). It was with that next boyfriend that I experienced my first orgasism ever







, learned how to give someone else pleasure and experience pleasure for myself. We dated for 2 1/2 years, then parted 1/2 through my senior year (he was freshman in college already and I decided I could not follow him on his path and needed to find my own). I still feel deeply connected to this person, though we have been out of touch for several years.

Through all of this (sorry it was so long, hopefully someone is still reading







), my mother and step father were in the foreground. I was taught all of the mechanics of sex, I saw what I thought was a relatively healthy relationship between them and had I asked, I would have been told anything I wanted to know. It was just too uncomfortable and creepy to talk to her about it. She wasn't really comfotable talking about it and I was at that ackward age and immaturity. She bought me condoms when I brought my boyfriend home from boarding school at 15 yo and soon after asked me if I wanted to go on birth control pills (she was a little late...I had set up an appointment for myself for the followinng week







: ). But I was never told how emotional that sexual connection is or that I should only share it with someone worthy of it. I was not discouraged from exploring my sexually and in many ways I felt lost a sea trying to find my own way, as I never felt I was given a framework to start from. I am the youngest girl of 4, and you would think I she would have gotten it right by then, but in many ways I think she failed in giving me the life lessons and tools I needed to make good decisions about my sexuality...My older sisters made similar mistakes and had their own issues to deal with (oldest moved to an Osho ashram at 18, next oldest got pregnant at 16, got married to the moron at 18, had three kids by the time she was 21; next oldest lost her virginity non-consentually when she was 13; then there's me).

Do I regret who I lost my virginity too? Yes
Do I regret my decision to loss my virginity before marriage? No
Will I teach my kids differentlly? Absolutely


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by jess7396_
*Amelia,

You will never convince anyone on here that you know people who are celibate at an older age, and that they are normal, you also will not convince anyone on here that most priests and nuns remain celibate, or even that they do their very best to. I also have many examples like Amelia's but I know they fall on deaf ears.*

IMO, your personal experiences with others are very valid. However, I also don't see how anyone can generalize about an entire class of people (i.e. priests and nuns) that encompasses so many individuals. And I think it's wise to recognize that the image that people present publicly (even to those with whom they are very close) is not always congruent with their private selves.


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## DreamerMama (Feb 2, 2003)

And I think it's wise to recognize that the image that people present publicly (even to those with whom they are very close) is not always congruent with their private selves.








I couldn't have said that better. When I was 11 I told everyone that I was a virgin and I promised to be one until I was married. When I was 16 my Grandmother asked me if I was having sex, I said no. I was a perfect Xian going to bible class every day. Then three months later *poof* conception. Who knew?







:

I know several people IRL, religious and non, that are completely dishonest about 'who they are'. It never suprises me to find out about some people. I know from experience that it isn't what they are on the outside that tells the story of who they are.

Many people have been taught repression of imorality and instead of deciding that it is a good idea, they decide it is easier to lie. That is why I will never believe in; prefect marriages with no fighting, prefect moms who never yell, perfect people that don't make bad decisions, and perfect children that tell their parents everything.

I know, because I told my parents what they wanted to hear, not who I was.

Jenny


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Piglet68_
*The urge to reproduce is the single, biggest driving force of each and every organism in the Universe. It even outweighs the desire for self-preservation.

IMO, teaching children that sexual desire can be overcome with simply the right amount of "self-control" is setting most of them up for failure and the guilt and shame that results from failure (note I said most, not all, thus accounting for the minority of happy pre-marital virgins). I cannot see how you can explain abstinence as "honoring God", and then not expect children (and adults!) to bear the burden of shame and guilt themselves when they expectedly fail to "control" their sex drives.
.*
First of all I don't think most people are having sex to reproduce. People seem to exhibit plenty of self control when it comes to reproducing. I think the urge for self gratifying pleasure and for meeting your own need is what drives people to have sex even if itmeans going against God's plan and sacrificing the blessings of waiting.

Secondly, I think it is just as bad to say to a child "I know you have no self control so, expecting you to fail, I am going to make sure you have birth control, regardless of it you wantit or not, and a comfortable place to do it." that is the message so many people give thier children when they disregard thier commitment to purity. My mom was like that with me. She was constantly on me to take birth control. I would explain to her that I was going to remain a virgin and she would just nod and smile and say yes but you'll probably change your mind and youll want to ready (because she assumed that when i did change my mind I wouldn't give it any consideration and couldn't wait a couple of days for birth control)

Secondly I tell my children that fornication is a sin. So is lying, stealing and cheating but God's grace is big enough to cover it all. I suppose this goes way beyond sex but conviction and repentance go hand and hand and if my children sin i want them to feel the weight of that, whatever the sin is, because that conviction will lead to repentance which leads to forgivness which leads to restored relationships.

The thing with sex is that it has all these consequences that can be huge blessing inside of marraige but huge dissasters outside of marrainge. Sex, even inside of marraige is rarely casual. yet kids are taught that you can just go out and have a fun fling but there are always life and death risks (creating a life, catching a life threatening disease) Anyway, my point is that I want my children to recieve the full blessing of sex and I don't want bad descissions made in thier youth to keep them from experiancing the wonderful rewards of waiting. Hopeflly if my children don't wait they will at least know that they have made a mistake and then stop or think more carefully next time or something.

I am pretty nuetral on masterbation. it is artificial sex and doesn't have the rewards of pleasuring someone else. I think it is selfish act but on the other hand "Sefe sex is in your hands - sex can wait! masturbate !" Even if it is a sin at least you aren't dragging someone else down with you.

And yes I am thrilled with my descission to remain a virgin until I was married. I consider it a blessing for myself and my dh. I consider it a blessing everytime I go to the Dr. and they say "Oh, your not at risk for anything, do you even want to be tested?" and I get to say "NO". I certainly wouldn't do it any other way. At times it was hard. I wanted to feel loved that way. Physical affection was never given to me at home and it is something I really craved (3 kids and 9 years of marraige later my mantra is "quit touching me" :LOL) and it could have gotton me into a lot of emotional trouble had I given into my craving for it. I am glad I had friends who loved me and held me to Gods plan for sex. My neediness could have made it very ugly.

So anyway, I hope to give my children the same encouragement and hopefully lead them to the greater blessings in thier life. I would be doing them a disservice to expect less. They *are* capable of reacing thier goals. They *are* able to cultivate self-coltrol and patience (sp?). They *are* capable of putting Gods will for them and others first. I know they can and I know they won't regret those qualities.

As for teaching your 11 year old about purity and reminding her of her commitment. I don't know that I would go about it that way (because children will tell you what you want o hear) but I certainly don't think 11 is too young to understand about being chaste. 11 yo are getting pregnant all the time. They have to be lacking some important peice of information. I have already started teaching my children (6 and 3) about sex and how great it is and how it works but that it is something that only married people do. that that is the way God wants it, not just mommy and daddy. I think it may even be easier to drive home the consequences at this age because they still take things like sickness and babies without both parents pretty seriously.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

double post.


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## carmen veranda (Jan 27, 2003)

"If you sin you should feel bad about it. If you felt just hunky dorey about t why would you repent? why would you need to seek forgivness (but this goes much further than a discussion about sex"

Why indeed? I wouldn't repent. I don't believe in it. I don't sin. I don't believe sex is a sin.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Well, of course if you don't hold those beliefes this is an invalid argument but my children do hold this belief system and so this is how we are teaching them. And I am not asking you to wait. I am asking them.


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## jen and her girls (May 22, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by PerfectLove_
*

There was a guy at our church with the girl he was courting. They went to the same Xian high school, and attended our church with their families. After graduation, he asked her father for her hand in marriage, and he said yes. Then because **they had never, ever, ever touched even once** he asked the dad permission to hug her and the dad said yes! (I almost cried at the sweetness and innocense in that!) Then, they continued not to touch. I would see them at church sitting one chair apart (and then closer to the wedding sitting next to each other) and I would almost be jealous of the anticipation and excitement they must have!
Then their wedding!!! It was the most beautiful, perfect wedding I have EVER been at (including my own). It wasn't boring or pretencious or anything... just amazing. They had their first kiss on the alter. Now, that honeymoon must have been what REAL honeymoons are all about! Can you imagine, being SO in love with the man who will be your one and only forever, and being a complete virgin on your wedding night? I think that is so, so beautiful and rare and special and perfect. I think that will add so much to the incredible bond they allready have. They will have that forever. *sigh*

*
You know what this says to me? This says that this poor woman spent her honeymoon in so much pain she could barely enjoy it. Sex hurts - FOR AWHILE! When you've never had anything in there, and then you suddenly do - yeah, that had to be some honeymoon. I bet she spent a good portion of it crying, and possibly bleeding.

And I can almost understand waiting until marriage to have intercourse (I wouldn't, and will not encourage my children to) but to not even kiss, hug, *sit next to* your future mate......... It's just weird. I don't think those two knew each other at all. Just wait until she finds out he's a horrible kisser, and he finds out she's like a board in bed. That should be fun and fulfilling for the whole family.


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## Els' 3 Ones (Nov 19, 2001)

Just as the 11yo will say what she thinks you want to hear, so will the priests, nuns and 70yo women. Why in the world would they feel compelled to discuss their sex lives with you?

I took my rose colored glasses off a long time ago.................


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## laralou (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by jess7396_
*Amelia,

You will never convince anyone on here that you know people who are celibate at an older age, and that they are normal, you also will not convince anyone on here that most priests and nuns remain celibate, or even that they do their very best to. I also have many examples like Amelia's but I know they fall on deaf ears.*
The deaf ears comment seems condescending. People are entitled to their own opinions based on their own knowledge and experience, even if it is different from your own.

I know that some people are celibate at an older age. I also know that some people are not. I wouldn't trust an older person to be totally honest with me especially about masturbation because they were raised thinking it was wrong. My mother gets nauseated talking about it.

I don't think that you can make a generalization for most priests/nuns anymore than anyone else can. It isn't as if we can take a poll and know the truth, because frankly they have a really good reason to lie. So I think we could agree that we don't have a clue what the majority does- no matter how Catholic any of us are.

As far as your previous question, I was taught that premarital sex was wrong. I had it. I do have regrets about who I had it with, but I don't wish I had waited until I was married (at 33). I also don't wish I had married younger. I agree that it is a strong drive to both masturbate and to have sex. Even when I did believe it was wrong, I still did it. What I didn't do was buy condoms beforehand because that would have meant I was planning it which seemed worse than doing it spontaneously. Thank goodness I got over that. My mother was taught premarital sex was wrong, she waited, and she regrets that she never got a chance to have sex with a man other than my father. That is per her own words.

I won't teach my ds that it is immoral to have premarital sex. I will teach him about the emotional consequences and the chance of STDs and pregnancy. I hope he waits until he is mature enough to handle all of the responsibility that comes along with sex. I worry about him because the girls in his class think he is "hotter than Aaron Carter"







, so we have a long road ahead of us.

As far as masturbation, I will teach him that it is healthy and normal, but private, and to always lock the door (walked in on my brother once when we were younger).

I can't think far enough ahead to imagine having these conversations with the girls.


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## Faith (Nov 14, 2002)

Jen,

I'm very sorry of losing your virginity was like that for you. But you are making a mistake of assuming it is like that for everyone, or that it was like that for my friend. I had sex for the first time at just barely fifteen. I did not bleed. I did not cry. It was a very enjoyable experience. Even if it does hurt a little, it is often the pleasure/pain combination that is not unpleasant. So you are saying that every women who loses her virginity spends a complete week bleeding and in pain?

They knew each other extremely well, for many years. This is how I got to know my husband- hours of deep conversation, notes, late-night phone calls. That is how I knew he would be my best friend. Generally, most people do NOT "get to know each other" by jumping into bed or making out.







: Does that mean I don't "know at all" my friends and family- because we have never had sex or groped each other? Spending time with them day in and day out isn't enough to KNOW some one?

Maybe I think what you do is 'weird.' Who are you to judge?

You are missing the point. They won't have anything to compare each other to. It will be all they have ever had. So if one of them is not an incredible kisser from the get go (who is?) they have time to learn, and they wouldn't know the difference anyway. I am SURE he will have no complaints about her in bed. These are two beautiful people who are deeply in love and bonded for life. I highly doubt she looked into his eyes after their wedding kiss and thought "horrible!!!"

You are right about one thing though- what they did was and always will be fun and fulfilling for their whole family.


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## Faith (Nov 14, 2002)

Also, I do NOT see what some people here are getting at when they say it is too much to expect of our children, so we need to be ready to accept when they have sex anyway.

I will love my kids and be here for them no matter what. I would not disown them or anything for making mistakes. BUT what kind of logic is it to throw in the towel now, like others are doing, because the kids will do it anyway?

Should I just say, "Oh, it's unrealistic to try and eat healthy. I'll just buy my kids pop and chips and junk. The temptation is too great. I need to be realistic. Eatting is a survival instinct that can't be controlled."
Um, no. I think being pure til marriage is completely attainable, and people have brains and are capable of resisting temptation. Sex is an internal need, but just like eatting it can be controlled.

I think it sounds like an excuse to alliviate (sp?) the responsibility.


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## kama'aina mama (Nov 19, 2001)

This is so sad. I can't believe such intolerance and condescention towards others simply because they make different choices than you do.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Well, you might think it is an attainable goal because it is so important to you. But the bottom line is that you are not your children. Your children might give you lip service about agreeing with the goals you set for their bodies, but when they get to be teens, they are going to make their own decisions. If they believe that you are obsessive about this issue, they probably aren't going to tell you about their sexual activity.

I stopped believing in most of the teachings of my parents' church when I was about 7 years old. No kidding, seven years old. But I knew that in my parents' house part of the rules were that we were catholic. So, I played the game of attending their church until I was out of their house, but was sexually active in a caring relationship while still in my teens and on the sly. I told them what they wanted to hear because I didn't think my sexuality was theirs to own.

You view it as other people throwing in the towel, while other people might view you as sticking your head in the sand.


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## Faith (Nov 14, 2002)

Actually, the Bible says if we raise our children up in the they should go, they will not depart from it.

I am not obsessive about this issue at all. (My kids are only 2 and 4!) It is just a little piece of our religion as a whole, *and* the topic of this thread.

Why on earth is believing in my faith and my kids knowing right from wrong sticking my head in the sand?! I am younger (just turned 25) so in my age group at church I see and talk to the other 'kids' my age who are virgins as we speak. I am just not asking any less from my kids, then what we all live and see every day.

My son is only 4, but is very mature and thoughtful, and he believes in God and the Bible VERY much. He is a better Xian than DH and I sometimes, because he really picks up on it and enjoys it. That has been HIS choice, and I am very proud of him.


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## laralou (Nov 27, 2001)

I am not throwing in the towel. I don't believe premarital sex is "wrong". It can be, but it can be right also. It has consequences, like any action, so I hope he waits until he can handle the consequences. I accept that I cannot control his whole life. I can tell him how I hope he will behave and after that point it is just hoping unless I am going to keep him under constant supervision until his wedding day.


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## laralou (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by PerfectLove_
*Actually, the Bible says if we raise our children up in the they should go, they will not depart from it.*
I think this is just not true. Everyone departs from the way they are raised on some issue. I was raised in a very strict Baptist household. I have had premarital sex, lived with members of the opposite sex without being married, experimented with drugs, etc. I certainly wasn't raised to do any of those things (and don't still do them).

I think what is more accurate is that *most* people return to the value system they were raised on. Now that I have kids, I run my house on many of the values I was raised on. I of course have my own values that are different from my parents, but mostly I am similar to them (ie I am very family oriented, community oriented, generous, etc).


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## BeeandOwlsMum (Jul 11, 2002)

I think it is great to believe that your kids will do what you tell them throughout their lives. But, for the majority of kids that isn't true. Granted PL, you are talking about your kids, who by the sounds of it are in a very sheleterd environment, so yours may do exactly what you have taught them.

But I didn't do everyting my folks told me to, they didn't do everything their folks told them to and so on. A person has to find their own way to fit into the world. And for everyone that is different. Unfortunately, the world does not fit itself to us, never will.

And that really is the bottom line for me. I want to give my kids the info to get along in the world and find their place in it. Not remove them from the world and then hope that all my teaching will be enough to hold them. There are things facing kids now that we couldn't possibly imagine. Just like there were things facing us that our parents didn't get. And it is the things that we don't know about or have to face that will test our kids and what they have learned.

I don't know, it it a tough thing. Who knows what our kids will end up doing? The greatest gift God or whoever you believe in, gave us is free will. We all have and we all use it. If we didn't this world would be pretty dang boring, don't you think?


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## Katana (Nov 16, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by EFMom_
*Well, you might think it is an attainable goal because it is so important to you. But the bottom line is that you are not your children. Your children might give you lip service about agreeing with the goals you set for their bodies, but when they get to be teens, they are going to make their own decisions. If they believe that you are obsessive about this issue, they probably aren't going to tell you about their sexual activity.*
I agree with this, completely.

In the very Christian circles I've run around in from time to time, those going to Christian or religious schools lost their virginity before people going to public schools, just because they thought they were missing something.

Were they, probably not. But they thought they were.

And down to the last one, all the parents all thought they remained completely pure till marriage. They all had the double lives going on. Good, pure student by day, wild partier by night and on weekends. Just so they wouldn't have to disappoint their parents.

I think that abstinence is a great idea, but I think that acheiving it is very hard. And, as numerous posters have said, not everyone even wants to. It is a personal choice, and it should be that way.

I know that each of our experiences are going to color our views differently. We have all made our personal choices, and our kids are going to do the same. Each of us, as parents does have the right to explain our views and feelings on this matter, but in the end, the kids are going to do the choosing.

My big beef with the abstinence issue is that many people do remain clueless. I do believe that if you're going to encourage abstinence you need to make sure your children are informed about what can happen, even if they choose not to let it.

I'm sitting here shuddering remembering girls I've known who didn't even know what a penis was. Or had the first clue at all about how sex was even performed, and how they got talked into doing it because the guy said it wasn't sex.

Or the girls who knew they weren't going to do it, because they had promised not to, so they didn't even think about or carry any kind of birth control. And they got caught up in the moment or talked into it.

Or the girls that ended up in the hospital on their wedding nights because neither they or their husbands knew anything about foreplay or pleasure, and they were too afraid or unsure to tell their husband it hurt.

All these instances could have been different with a little bit of communication, from parents or friends, or whoever. I'm not saying don't teach abstinence, but make sure your children know what *can* happen.


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## Faith (Nov 14, 2002)

_temporarily deleted by moderator pending edit by author_


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## Faith (Nov 14, 2002)

Yes, my children are probably sheltered by society's standards. I think it's a good thing though. I definitely don't want the kind of children who have to eat McD's every day and are immune to violence, etc, like I used to see in daycare. I am like the rest of you MDC mommas, we just shelter them religiously as well, until they are old enough to understand on their own.

But, again, we are VERY open and comfortable talking about things. My ds allready knows what 'gay' means (and that we need to love everybody), and where babies come out, and we will fill in the other blanks as they come up.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Laralou, my deaf ears comment, it was not meant as condecending, but I believe much of what was written before and after it, leads me to say, I still believe that it is true.

Interesting that I couldn't care less what anyone else chooses to teach their children, I'm just trying, for some unknown reason, to defend what I am teaching mine, which is what we all are doing I guess. I have not made any judgements on the way other's choose to handle this, but there have been lots of judgements thrown around on here, and I think we'd all do a lot better to stop trying to convince each other.

So, falling on deaf ears, I think that goes for both sides, no one on here will convince me that *most* priests are not celibate, etc., and I won't convince anyone of the opposite.


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## laralou (Nov 27, 2001)

edited by self


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## hslingmomof4 (Jun 4, 2003)

deleted. I offended others and accused them of it when I was doing it too.

Sorry!


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

OK, this may contribute to the idea that I am an idiot, which I am sure some think







but I just figured out what Xian means. As I read through this thread I kept thinking, "it must be some protestant denomination that I've never heard of", just realized what it is, so maybe I'm not as smart as I thought I was


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

"Such a shame of expecting your kids to have sex before marriage. You know when you don't set high standards for your children then nothing will get accomplished."

You might want to check out the thread on shaming children (apparently attempting to shame adults is also acceptable to some). This isn't an issue of "high standards" for many of us. We are coming from a completely different philosophy of parenting. I don't believe in your Christian God, or his sin. I have my own faith and we have our own morals.


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## DreamerMama (Feb 2, 2003)

edited by self


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I expect that my kids will have premarital sex, smoke pot, eat junk food, skip school, and dye their hair some weird color.

It would be just fine with me if they didn't do that stuff, but I think all that is normal and that all I can do is teach my beliefs about it. I have to admit that I just don't control everything, although would love to...

If they chose not to do that stuff I would not be any more proud than if they chose to do it. I'm proud to have a normal, happy child. I'm not proud when she goes to bed without a fuss or shares her toys - that's great, but doing what I want doesn't make me proud. It just makes things easier for me!

I also regret many of the sex partners I had but I don't regret having had premarital sex and pregnancy. I don't regret that dh has done the same thing, or that he was married to someone else first, or that we lived together before marriage. (We didn't live together until we had already decided to get married, but I have cohabitated with no intention of marriage. Even though we broke up I moved out, I still don't regret the experience.)


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I would like to remind everyone that I (as the OP of this thread) never asked WHY anyone was teaching abstinance. Maybe a reread of the OP is in order for those that insist on bringing religion into the discussion.

The repeated inference that those not teaching abstinance aren't religious, or spiritual is not only offensive (as not all religions believe in abstinance) but off topic in this thread.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

BTW, I did a poll here last year where we discussed how old people were when they first had sex and if they had been raised to be abstinant until marriage and it asked how many told their parents if they had sex before marriage.

Over 90% had sex before marriage and of the ones that were raised to be abstinant less that 5 total (not 5%) had told their parents that had sex before marriage. So I think those numbers definately support the fact that kids rarely tell their parents when they have sex for the first time, and especially those that were raised to think it's a sin.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Arduinna_
*

You might want to check out the thread on shaming children (apparently attempting to shame adults is also acceptable to some). This isn't an issue of "high standards" for many of us. We are coming from a completely different philosophy of parenting. I don't believe in your Christian God, or his sin. I have my own faith and we have our own morals.

*
ITA Ardiuinna -- with the excpetion that even some of who believe in the Christian God ALSO have a drastically different philosophy of parenting than the christian parents who are posting so much in this thread.

If there is anything that drives me crazy, its parents who claim "This is *the* christian way to raise a child." It automatically assumes that any other way is "unchristian." There is HUGE diversity in the way that Christians approach these issues.

I don't think it is an issue of a "higher standard" either. Its a different set of values for sure, but its unfair to say one set of values is "higher" than another.


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## carmen veranda (Jan 27, 2003)

Thank you. Very much.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

(nevermind)


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## hslingmomof4 (Jun 4, 2003)

deleted


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

hslingmomof4~ there have been numerous posts by more than one person regarding "higher ground", and not being "religious" ect. If you want to take it all on yourself be my guest, but you weren't singled out and in fact I didn't even have you in mind in my post.

I never said you said my way or the highway??


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## hslingmomof4 (Jun 4, 2003)

I apologize! There is one thing that makes this mamabear does , is protecting her children and Im sure all of us do it. I work really hard to be openminded and raise my children as open as possible. I just felt that my ideas were knocked and I was belittled by my parenting ideas.

I'm cool! Again, I apologize.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I want to thank all of you for putting so much thought and energy into this discussion. I've been following this thread because I've thought a lot about how to approach conversations on sexuality with my dc [who is 2.5]. I'm an "older" lesbian mom. My sweetheart and I have been together since dirt was new. [Well not quite that long.] Both my beloved partner and I identify as Christians--two different denominations. Okay...she id's as "non-denominational." We have baptised our child Catholic and are members of a nearby parish. I find it important to say that we believe our relationship expresses G-d's plan for our lives.

I hear deep agreement among us about the need to make sure to keep the lines of communication on the topic of sexuality open with our children. My personal heartfelt thought is that our children--especially teenagers--may find themselves way over their heads and in danger if we don't. Talking to them and listening to them may be the only way we have of keeping them safe.

I want to thank you for reminding me of the importance of that.

I will not be teaching my child that sex outside of marriage is a sin...especially since I am not permitted to marry my beloved. I hope that she will absorb what loving relationships look like and seek after that if she partners. [In this way I hope to "train [her] up in the way [she] should go...."] I will pray for her emotional and physical safety as she grows. I will pray that she will be blessed by her experiences of others and that she will be a blessing.

If those prayers are answered I will be content.

Thank each of you for expressing so much of yourselves.

Peace to you.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:

If there is anything that drives me crazy, its parents who claim "This is *the* christian way to raise a child." It automatically assumes that any other way is "unchristian." There is HUGE diversity in the way that Christians approach these issues.
mamaduck, you took the words right out of my mouth. Or fingers, as it were. We see that lots here on MDC and it frosts my cookies.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

hslingmom~ "I just felt that my ideas were knocked and I was belittled by my parenting ideas."

That is exactly how I've been feeling especially when posters keep referring to our (non abstinance teachers) lack of religion.

no problem.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

chfriend~ thank you for posting. I think you brought up some very good points, especially in regards to your not being allowed to marry and how that effects teaching our kids about abstinance until marriage.








T but I hope that the US will remedy that situation ASAP!


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## laralou (Nov 27, 2001)

edited by self


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Why does anyone think they know what god's plan is for someone else? (NOT singling out anyone here, just asking!) I think what god wants for me is between me and god, no one else.

God's plan for marriage and sex may be completely different for one person than for another.


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## BeeandOwlsMum (Jul 11, 2002)

Good point! That whole all-knowing jive. He may each and every one of us mapped out...and I may be doing exactly what he thought best....interesting though.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

that sounds like an awesome topic thread for the spirit forum. I bet it would get some varied answers too.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Just got back from a looooooong day out. I'm going to close this thread while I review the latest posts.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

_*This thread has been returned at the request of several members. It has taken a great deal of time on my part, Cynthia's and the many members who agreed to participate in the editing process. It would be a real shame to have to close this thread so soon after re-opening it. So I would like to ask everybody to please stop and consider what you are writing before you hit that "send" key. It's okay to disagree, but please be respectful. THANK YOU.*_

PS - If anybody needs a refresher on the rules for posting here at MDC, rules which you all agreed to when you registered, you can find them here.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Thanks Piglet!!

To further explore CHfriends point regarding gay and lesbian children, I certainly don't think it's fair to expect gay and lesbians to not have a sexual relationship outside of marriage when they are not currently allowed to marry in the US at least (WOO HOO Canada for making it possible there!)


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## Faith (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*Why does anyone think they know what god's plan is for someone else? (NOT singling out anyone here, just asking!) I think what god wants for me is between me and god, no one else.

God's plan for marriage and sex may be completely different for one person than for another.*

I don't think it can be completely different at all. There is one Bible with one set of instructions that God gave to all of us. It clearly lays out God's plan for marriage and sex for everyone.

Of course, if you do not believe in the God of the Bible, this does not apply to you.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

*


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## DreamerMama (Feb 2, 2003)

Thanks Piglet, appreciate all the hard work. I had actually missed the last page, It was very nice to read it.

Quote:

_Originally posted by Arduinna_
*
(WOO HOO Canada for making it possible there!)*
Maybe it's all of the freash air clearing up their minds.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Faith_
*Of course, if you do not believe in the God of the Bible, this does not apply to you.*
Or if you interpret it differently (as so many do)









(I hope that doesn't violate the rules?)


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## Faith (Nov 14, 2002)

Dragonfly~

I would be genuinely curious to see how the Bible could be translated to mean anything other than being married to one person in a comitted relationship.

I am not offened easily and am not out to start a fight, just would like to see the other point of view.


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## DreamerMama (Feb 2, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Faith_
*Dragonfly~

I would be genuinely curious to see how the Bible could be translated to mean anything other than being married to one person in a comitted relationship.
*
I don't think anyone should start debating the symantics of the bible here. It's not the place or the time to be doing so. It was not the op's intetnion (if I am not mistaken) to have that "sort" of discussion. I also think, that if you are living in the year 2003 you must realize that many people interpret the bible differently, Xian people included. That is why we have so many churches, denominations, etc.

Jenny


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## MelissaEvans (Jan 9, 2003)

Back to the original post...

Quote:

First Question is are you concerned that your kids may choose to marry younger than they would because of their desire to become sexually active?
I know my parents wanted DH and I to wait another year before we got married, but we decided against it becuase we wanted to abstain and knew we couldn't last that long. (I was 19.5, we had dated for 2 years.) So yes, I'm concerned a little; but it doesn't seem to have done me any harm. =)

Quote:

Two, what of those people that may not want to get married until they are in their 30's are you still expecting that they will be virgins at marriage.
Yes, I am expecting my 30 year old unmarried children to remain virgins. That is what I strongly believe (you are welcome to your beliefs of course) and it is what will be taught to my children. If they "oops" I will not hate them and work with them through the repentance process (yes, I am religious). If they knowingly, intentionally break thiis ideal, I will have a harder time with it. It would be like my children spanking/circing/neglecting/abusing my grandchildren. I am adamently against it.

Quote:

And how is virginity being defined in your families?
I haven't really ocnsidered a legal definition. I like the concept of orgasm = no more virigin. I don't think holding hands and kissing removes this "title." I guess if "sex" is in the name of the activity (i.e. oral sex, anal sex) or it includes direct touching of the genitals it counts as sex. I'm sure there's probably still holes in this definition, but I hope to teach the spirit of the law rather than the letter. *shrug*


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Thank you, I completely agree. Why don't one of you start a new topic (since that is a spirituality discussion and not a parenting issues one) debating interpretations of the bible.

This thread is not about religion, it's not even about WHY people choose to teach abstinance. I know the OP has been reposted more than once here already.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

"If they "oops" I will not hate them and work with them through the repentance process"

could you describe what an opps would be? Obviously rape is not included in that description, just to get that out of the way. But I'm having a heard time figuring out how someone has consentual sexual contact without it being intentional?

*edited to add a general comment to no one in particular*

I've noticed quite a few posts in the 10+ pages of this thread that refer to "religous". Either someone saying I'm religious, or maybe you don't know religious people or whatever. I'd like to point out that different relgions have different beliefs. Not all people that are "religious" are part of a religion that includes the concept of chastity as being a virtue. Religious is not synonymous with Christianity or any other specific faith. It just means dedicatd to a faith, whatever that faith may be.


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

FINALLY! I have read all of the remaining posts.

1) I plan to teach Goo and any future children that sex is a very special thing. It is something where you must expose the very heart of your soul, and body. You are sharing and isolated at the same time. I want her to know how powerful sex is. That said, I don't think abstinance until marriage is needed. I would prefer that she wait until she was mature enough to handle the emotional complications of intercourse and to make sure it is legal (age wise).

2) I would never want to assume a position of demanding that Goo do something that I myself didn't do. I could explain to her if I felt premartial sex was wrong (but I think it's ok), but it is her choice...

We can TEACH, but it is up to our children to make their choices with their lives and the knowledge and advice we give them.


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## MelissaEvans (Jan 9, 2003)

Quote:

could you describe what an opps would be? Obviously rape is not included in that description, just to get that out of the way. But I'm having a heard time figuring out how someone has consentual sexual contact without it being intentional?
Well, as a mom, I "oops" sometimes too. I yell when I shouldn't becuase I get caught up in my emotions, then I feel bad later because I know I shouldn't have done it. That's the type of thing that I meant.

Quote:

We can TEACH, but it is up to our children to make their hoices with their lives and the knowledge and advice we give them.
Exactly. =)


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Melissa, I think we all can identify with getting caught up in the moment, lolol.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

It baffles me that anybody thinks they should get to make decisions about a 30 year old person's sex life, or lack thereof, whether that 30 year old is their "child" or not.







:

At what point does the "child" get to make their own important personal decisions? 40? 50? Never? If the "child" never gets to make their own decisions, do the grandparents also get to make important personal decisions for the "child's" offspring?


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## delighted.mama (Jan 29, 2003)

I was not going to join in this thread because it is soooooo long....but after weeks of tracking it, and finally reading through all of it, I am going to jump in briefly!









EFmom, ITA with your post. Without getting into lots of details or a lengthy discussion of religion, for me the bottom line is that at some point our *child* is going to be an *ADULT.* As an adult, they deserve to have the same rights that we do and, although we might like to control what they do, all we can do is to offer advice. Whether they take that advice or not is another topic. This is true for a lot of things, not just premarital sex/abstence.

OK, that's all I felt compelled to say at this time. Back to someone else.......









Libby


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

I don't think anyone is under the illusion that we will make the decision of wether or not to save sex for marriage for our children, some of us are just stating what we will teach our children about how we feel about it morally (actually we all will teach our children how we feel about it morally), and that we hope they will follow through, just as we hope they do with other moral issues.

I know I will not make the decision for my child, the decision will be theirs alone, but I will teach them what I feel is right, just as you will teach your children what you feel is right, about any number of things, and the child will go on from there.


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## granolamom (Sep 30, 2002)

David and I have been together for 20 years. We have raised and are raising four amazing kids. We are now grandparents....We are lovers, soul mates and best friends... And ... we only recently married......

December 31st of last year in fact!!!

For us to say to our kids "wait until you are married!!!" would be crazy.....

I would never tell my children what to do to their own bodies.. I have told them that sex does not equal love, that they always have the right to chose who can touch them and sex can and will be an amazing experiance with the right person......

THis is what feels right to me, it is what I believe... David and I have chosen to say together all these years purely because we are each others best friend and soul mate...We never felt we needed someone to stand before and proclaim are commitment to. We did that privately years ago.

I am sure this goes against what some of you feel is right.. We all have the right to chose that for ourselves...... all I know is that every morning for 20 years I have woken up beside the only man in the world I want to wake up with...................

This has worked for us... it was and is our choice and likewise... outr children will have the right to make that choice for themselves... they own their own bodies......

Just my 2 cents........

Granolamom


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Stonehenge_
*I'm going to tell the Hobbit Baby to wait until she is married, but to be perfectly honest, once she's an adult, if she's in a stable, committed relationship, it's none of my business what she does and it wouldn't bother me if she were intimate with the person.*
I haven't read the whole thread yet but had to respond to this. If you think she should wait until she is 18 and in a stable, committed relationship, why not just tell her that from the start? I only say this (and this is a ridiculous analogy but it immediately popped into my mind when reading this post) because my parents told me two things I couldn't do - pierce my ears (my dad's rule) and color my hair (my mom's rule). I didn't - while they were alive. After they died, I got my ears pierced. Let them grow back - wonder why.... Repierced them years later - again never wore earrings and they grew back. Hmmmm..... Finally, at the age of 32 I think it was, I colored my hair to cover all the premature gray







I love how it looks but feel guilt each time I do it. I just hear my mom's voice ringing in my ears. Because of the love and respect I have for them, it is hard for me to go against things they said - even though I know that were they here now they would tell me to go ahead; I'm an adult now.

Just a very off topic example but I think that it is hard to say one thing for years then later change it and expect that to ring true for the child (now adult). Now I know that part of it is that my parents made the rule, then died before they could rescind it. I am sure you will live to change your rule and it will work out fine - just tossing in my two cents.

And it (my two cents) officially on abstinence is that it is for the birds. I cannot imagine getting married without having had serious relationships - I really believe they (past relationships) each teach you what you want and don't want in your permanent relationship.

And I have a theory - I call it the "slut phase" (excuse the vulgarity if you consider it that). I think everyone goes through a phase where they date at will - that may or may not include sex. Some go through this in high school, some in college, some cheat on their spouses, some get divorced and go through this phase in midlife - but I really think that most people go through this phase. If you have never kissed anyone but your spouse, when that person gets a little boring - or you are furious with them or whatever, that cute UPS guy is pretty enticing. But when you have had other relationships, you know that the honeymoon phase isn't forever - everyone makes you mad sometimes - you have seen the grass and know it isn't always greener.

I am interested to read through (ALL) the other posts and see what others think.
Kirsten


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## alexa07 (Mar 27, 2003)

There is no way I would ever tell my kids to wait until marriage. I will tell them to wait until they are willing to make themselves completely vulnerable to another person, and that they trust the other person ennough that they feel this is a person they can be very vulnerable with.

This is what my parents tought me. And its a lot harder to reject than the advice that you should wait til you are married.

I mean my friends whose parents told them to wait til marriage, could see that eveything could turn out OK if you did not wait, so they rejected that advice, but then they had no framework for why things could be ok if you didn't wait til marriage.

For me, I could look around and see that my parents were right. I had friends who did not wait who were in serious, mutually respecful relationships and this seemed like it was fine. But I could also see that if you weren't in this type of relationship you could end up really sorry.

I want my kids to have this same frame work that I did. Also, it made me want to wait ( and I did for a looooooong time because there was no feeling of rebellion and I wanted it to be right.


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## gen_here (Dec 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *its_our_family*
In all honesty....we will teach abstinence until marraige. Sex outside of marriage is too risky for one (pregnancy, disease, emotional comtiment etc.) and we just don't see it (as a family) as something that is to be messed with.

I don't want to come off as prudish but if I do...oh well









Actually, I'm allfor teaching ds the poin of dating is to find a spouse. And until you are actually ready to start looking for a spouse then dating is pointless. I'm not talking about a girlfriend in the 3rd grade...but a serious relationship at 16 is stupid. Most likely you won't stay together anyway. My dh doesn't think you can teach anyone this concept, but my mom did...and I did start dating until 20 and got married at 21. I see dating as pointless...and hopefully staying away from dating helps you stay from pre-marital sex...not in every case...but kwim?

I think that kissing is fine...ven though I didn't kiss until dh and I were engaged. But I think sex constitutes anything that causes you to know another persons body in a way that only their dr should know; nudity, touching in appropriately.

I wil teach my children that abstinence is the only birth control that is 100% effective.

I know they might not see things my way, but I would hope that I will be able to "prove" my case to them in such a way that they would agree. If they don't.....then we do what we can.

BTW---I was brought up to stay away from pre-marrital sex and so were all of my friends.....and not one of us "married young" in order to become sexually active....to me that sounds silly...not saying it doesn't happen but it sounds odd. Thats why I hope that my children understand the point of what we teach

I hope all this made sense 









My mom never "taught" me anything about how to live as far as my sexuality - I think she was afraid of the backlash from me (she was single a single mom - never married).

However, I'm assuming it was from my religious education, and this describes how I was (and my husband). We dated to find a spouse. He had one girlfriend in junior high (more because it was the thing to do), but that never went anywhere beyond a kiss thing (and he did believe he would marry her - they were separated when her father was re-stationed at a new base). I never even kissed anyone before my husband... and I was 25! We married when we were 26... he turned 27 a month later... so we didn't marry young, either!

And the other poster who mentioned how "awful" it would be to go through the losing of your virginity on your wedding night - why would that be so awful? We didn't have a romance-novel first night by any means, but we were together in a relationship where we could be "naked and unashamed"... and we had/have the rest of our lives to get things right. I've never heard anyone complain about having to practice at sex









It is possible to make it to marriage without losing virginity - and be happy about it! And we weren't "technical virgins" - never did any more than kiss. No groping, no rubbing, no touching over or under clothing. What a cool gift we had to give each other when we said "I do!"

We plan to raise our kids in the same beliefs. And I'm thrilled that we can tell them how wonderful it would be for them without feeling like we're asking them to do something we couldn't.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

I thought this topic was in the archives? I personally don't believe in waiting until marriage and don't encourage it. DH got a serious case of wonder lust after we were together for 2 years (I was his first kiss even) We ended up separating and both of us dated other people for a long time. I don't think that would have been an issue had he already been around the block.

Either way it's a personal choice, if you want to teach abstanance, go for it. I prefer to teach safety and responsibility.


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## maxmama (May 5, 2006)

Why wouldn't you want to make all your bad relationship decisions and choices with someone you're not married to? Learning to be committed to someone takes awhile. I don't mind having been Miss Right Now for some of my partners, nor do I look down on them because I didn't end up marrying them . I think fondly of pretty much all of them, and since they were good people I'm glad I was with them. I'd never trade that breadth of experience for one partner for my whole life.


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## mom*of*6 (May 25, 2006)

with our oldest 4 kids they are in their teens, we have had long discussions about sex. we would love for them to wait until they are married, BUT in the real world they could have sex before then. They have assured me they havnt yet. We dont harp on them about it, but the dialogue is always open and up for discussion. WE are very open with our kids and so far they have always been nothing but honest. Do I think it will encourage them to get married at a younger age? I dont think so. They all have plans with their lives and are very goal and achievement oriented. Our oldest son DOES want to be married and have kids between the ages of 23-25. He said he would prefer to be a youngish parent. We were 18 when we got married (18 years ago) he doesnt want to be that young, LOL but still in his early 20's. So we shall see.


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

Sort of like buying a car - never buy one you haven't test-driven









I would actually discourage abstinance


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna*
I'm curious about those that are stressing abstinance until marriage. First Question is are you concerned that your kids may choose to marry younger than they would because of their desire to become sexually active? Two, what of those people that may not want to get married until they are in their 30's are you still expecting that they will be virgins at marriage. And how is virginity being defined in your families? As nothing more than kissing? or anything but penetration is ok? Obviously there is alot of stuff in between those two choices that one can engage in.

I do not teach abstinence until mariage, as we are not Catholic and what if one of my children is GLBT and the Law says they cannot get married?


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## Shirelle (May 22, 2006)

I have not read this entire thread (because it's REALLY long!) but I thought I'd chime in.

This is a very big hot button with me. We will teach our children to abstain from sexual activity until marriage. I want them to find a spouse that will fully appreciate how special they are, and will respect them SO much that they are willing to wait until their wedding night. That will be their gift to their spouse. I think living together and having sex out of wedlock devalues a person, and devalues the sacredness of sex. We will be open about sex, and will talk a lot about it, but not in the sense of "if you do it, make sure you use protection". When they enter a marriage they will be expected (by their spouse and by society) to stay faithful to that one partner, and in essence they remain faithful to their family by not having sex until marriage. They show us respect and love by saving themselves for marriage. OF COURSE people make mistakes, but we personally have the highest of standards for our children in regards to many other issues, no matter what society says is okay. I would not sit back and idly let them do other destructive behavior, so I definitely would not just sit back if I knew they were having sex as a teenager....IMO, that is also destructive behavior.


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## maxmama (May 5, 2006)

I never thought it was destructive. I still don't. I think part of the problem we have in this country with teen pregnancy and unplanned/unwanted pregnancy in general is that sex is mythologized and not discussed openly. European countries are much more matter of fact and information based about sex than we are, and their teen and unplanned pregnancy rates are MUCH lower.

Besides, I spent my teen years and young adulthood involved with women, so waiting until marriage wasn't exactly an option.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Holy Thread revival batman.

Not into the whole abstinence til marriage thing myself, wouldn't push my kids in that direction either. I want them to be safe and responsible about their sexual activity, but I'd be fooling myself if I thought they were going to wait until marriage.


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## papayapetunia (Feb 6, 2006)

I think I will just tell them about my own experiences, and how they have shaped my opinion. I definitely think sex within marriage has been more fulfilling for me than casual sex or sex within a non-marital relationship. I also had sex for a lot of the wrong reasons and ended up getting hurt because of it. My feelings about sex are not based on right/wrong though, they are based on my own experience. My children may not agree with me and that's fine. I will send them out into the world armed with all the information they need to prevent STDs and unwanted pregnancy. I will probably teach them about STD prevention at an early age, like 10-12 and keep pressing it as long as they are with me.


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Gee, I haven't read this entire thread, and yeah, what a thread revival!, BUT can people just STOP with all the heterosexism for crikey's sake?

"I will teach my child that sex is for married folks"

Excuse me? And what if your child is GAY?????? OR BI???????

You hoping same sex marriage is legal by the time they grow up, or are you just really that ignorant that not everyone grows up straight??

OR please tell me you won't disown your child and try to tell them they can CHOOSE to be straight, because you know, "sex is for married folks"

I have a whole lot more about the best ways to talk to your kids about sex, but I think thats for another thread. I sure am glad I didn't grow up in most of the people's homes that replied to this thread, oh wait, my parents were exactly the same way, and it didn't do me a bit of good. Nope, still not married, have sex a lot, and even have a child, god forbid right?


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)




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## Becken (May 28, 2006)

I never even considered sex outside of marriage. Was it tempting sometimes? Heck yeah! But I never would have done it because in my family sex was always contextualized as something sacred to marriage. Since I wasn't married, it wasn't an option. (And *NO* this did not make me rush to get married "just so I could have sex" - that seems like a very silly fear to me!)

I don't think that I will focus on the "definition of the sexual act - what not to do and when not to do it" with my kids so much as a much larger picture of intimacy and sexuality. My goal is for _my_ marriage to be such a powerful example of wherein sexual expression belongs that they won't even consider doing it with some random teenage fling.

If, when they are consenting adults and choose to do differently (on this or any matter!), well, I've done all I can to be the best influence I know how and it ultimately is their decision anyway so I have nothing to be ashamed of or feel guilty for!


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## GrrlyElizabeth (Aug 7, 2004)

My very favorite sex book is called The Guide to Getting It On. My favorite line from it is something to the effect of, "You should NOT have sex until you are fully prepared to deal with the possibility of pregnancy, and feel prepared to raise a child, give a child up for adoption, or have an abortion." That, in addition to comprehensive education about STDs (which scare the heck out of me), is what I want to instill in my kids about sex.

I don't expect them to wait until marriage for sex. I didn't, and I don't regret it. I'm also of the mind that living together before marriage is a great idea.







I can't control my children, nor do I want to. But I really, really, really want to help them make good decisions.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

I read this thread a few months back, and the conclusion I came to is that I think it feels really wrong to have expectations about my dc's sex life--esp once she has reached adulthood. I mean, I can make judgments about what is/was right and wrong for me and my situation, but her situation will certainly be different. Mostly, whatever her path, I hope all of her sexual experiences are postive ones.


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## beanandpumpkin (Jan 2, 2005)

We will encourage abstinence until marriage. I think that aside from the man asking the woman's father for permission to hug her (which is weird and goes beyond customary "asking for her hand in marriage"), the story told on the first page or two is very romantic, and I wish it's what I had. I had sex with DH when I was 16 (he was boyfriend then, of course, not DH, and he was my first and only sexual partner), and we got married 4 years later, when I was 20. Eight years and two kids later, we're doing extremely well, so I'm not too concerned that we got married too young.

We will be stressing courtship over dating for our kids, and that extends to abstinence until the wedding night. Obviously I can't control what they do, but it's just one of the many values that I hope to impart in the short time that we have before our babies aren't babies anymore.

ETA: What they choose to do and who they become has no bearing on my love for them... if they have sex as teenagers, have babies out of wedlock, whatever, they will still be my children and I will love them regardless. The courtship/abstinence ideal is just that: my ideal for them. I hope that it becomes their OWN ideal as well. Obviously I can't be following my 30-year-old unmarried children around with a Bible and a chastity belt, and I wouldn't even if I could.


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Are people not reading the last page of this thread? Because other than head nodding (thank you) not ONE person has responded to my complaint that telling your children NOT to have sex before marriage ignores just about all people who are gay or bisexual who wish to marry a person of the same sex, BUT their govt will not allow them to (that is unless you live in a country where its legal). HELLO????


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## Shirelle (May 22, 2006)

Quote:

"I will teach my child that sex is for married folks"

Excuse me? And what if your child is GAY?????? OR BI???????

You hoping same sex marriage is legal by the time they grow up, or are you just really that ignorant that not everyone grows up straight??

OR please tell me you won't disown your child and try to tell them they can CHOOSE to be straight, because you know, "sex is for married folks"
To each his own. Not all of us feel the way that you do about homosexuality.


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Oh, and one other thing I get upset about when people make all these assumptions about what their children are supposed to do when it comes to their future sex lives (good point btw) is so you tell your child to WAIT till marriage (assuming they CAN!). WHAT if they marry someone who has some weird sexual hang up, problem, physical thing, etc? You want your child to find out on their wedding night that their spouse won't get naked in front of someone, has a foot fetish, likes S and M, etc, etc, etc. I can imagine all kinds of scenarios (hey, BEEN there!) with possible partners you might not find out about until you actually have sex with them. Then what? If I married someone who didn't actually WANT sex, and we were then married, I would be pretty pissed.


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## beanandpumpkin (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:

You want your child to find out on their wedding night that their spouse won't get naked in front of someone, has a foot fetish, likes S and M, etc, etc, etc. I can imagine all kinds of scenarios (hey, BEEN there!) with possible partners you might not find out about until you actually have sex with them. Then what? If I married someone who didn't actually WANT sex, and we were then married, I would be pretty pissed.
Gosh, I'd hope that something of that nature would be discussed before the wedding night! Abstaining from sex does not mean abstaining from TALKING about sex or about expectations. At least not to me.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gen_here*
It is possible to make it to marriage without losing virginity - and be happy about it! And we weren't "technical virgins" - never did any more than kiss. No groping, no rubbing, no touching over or under clothing. What a cool gift we had to give each other when we said "I do!"

I can imagine it was all very special for you, but, for me, an inexperienced lover is no gift.

If people choose to remain virgins until marriage, I'm fine with that. I don't think it's very realistic to teach that to your child and have them be able to be open with you if they choose not to follow parental expectations. The only women in my both my Dh's and my extended families who were pregnant before marriage were the ones whose parents expected abstinence. This can lead to lack of planning and lack of communication, sometimes.

As for my Dd, I won't teach abstinence and won't want that for her. I prefer that she marry later, like in her mid-twenties to early thirties. I don't expect her to remain a virgin for that long, but all of that will be up to her. What I really hope for is that she'll talk to me about her decisions so I can support her in them.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

If I'd abstained until marriage I'd be a 38-year old virgin, and still waiting - no thanks!

My daughter and I read Savage Love together... yesterday we discussed the woman with the extremely large clit who was comtemplating surgical reduction. I like that she's comofortable talking about sex with me. I know she's a virgin now, and if she decides to remain one until she marries I'm fine with that... and if she decides otherwise I'm fine with that... and if she never marries I'm fine with that, too. I just want her to be safe and to be prepared for the possible consequences of her actions.

dar


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## woobysma (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
If I'd abstained until marriage I'd be a 38-year old virgin, and still waiting - no thanks!

My daughter and I read Savage Love together... yesterday we discussed the woman with the extremely large clit who was comtemplating surgical reduction. I like that she's comofortable talking about sex with me. I know she's a virgin now, and if she decides to remain one until she marries I'm fine with that... and if she decides otherwise I'm fine with that... and if she never marries I'm fine with that, too. I just want her to be safe and to be prepared for the possible consequences of her actions.

dar









I think you've got it right on, Dar (this coming from a would-be 27 yo virgin w/ no kids







that would be sooooo sad)
I have boys and I want sex to be something they enjoy and RESPECT - I don't want my sons to rush into sex OR marriage - I want them to approach each event with caution and forethought - if they happen to wait until they marry to have sex, that's wonderful - if not, still wonderful as long as it was a meaningful display of love when it happened. I want them to be safe both physically and emotionally - that' all that matters to me.


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beanandpumpkin*
Gosh, I'd hope that something of that nature would be discussed before the wedding night! Abstaining from sex does not mean abstaining from TALKING about sex or about expectations. At least not to me.









And you assume they will? I don't. I would hope they would, but like I said, been there, done that.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

If someone saves themselves for marriage then gets a divorce, should they abstain from sex until the next time they get married or is it ok for them to have sex outside of marriage because they are no longer virgins anyway?


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

What I find interesting is an assumption that one's adult children will follow the parent's beliefs regarding intimacy and sexuality, probably the most personal issue that exists. Of course we guide our children according to our belief structures and values and hope that we raise moral, ethical, kind people...but at what point does the child become their own person and make decisions based on their personality and their own beliefs? And when is it realistic to "let go"? I would think it would be long prior to their wedding night. I don't want to sound offensive, but projecting our beliefs about sexuality on our ADULT children (we're talking 20 somethings here, aren't we?) seems sort of, well...silly. What my children are doing in their bedrooms (presumably in their own apartments, houses, etc) when they're 25 simply isn't my business. Who am I to tell an adult what to do and what is right and wrong? How am I the arbitrator of another adult's sex life?


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## maxmama (May 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal*
Are people not reading the last page of this thread? Because other than head nodding (thank you) not ONE person has responded to my complaint that telling your children NOT to have sex before marriage ignores just about all people who are gay or bisexual who wish to marry a person of the same sex, BUT their govt will not allow them to (that is unless you live in a country where its legal). HELLO????























I agreed with you. Hard to save yourself for marriage (as if I wanted to) when you can't legally marry, isn't it? Sort of like the old days of miscegenation laws.

As for "not everyone feels the way you do about homosexuality"...well, that's true. But I desperately hope my children won't grow up as bigots. I don't think homophobia is really something I would be proud of.


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## NaomiLorelie (Sep 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
I read this thread a few months back, and the conclusion I came to is that I think it feels really wrong to have expectations about my dc's sex life--esp once she has reached adulthood. I mean, I can make judgments about what is/was right and wrong for me and my situation, but her situation will certainly be different. Mostly, whatever her path, I hope all of her sexual experiences are postive ones.









I've avoided posting on this thread because I just can't imagine assuming to know exactly what is best for any individual old enough to make these decisions for themselves. I will be honest with my children about my experiences and beliefs. I will not present my belief system as a fact. (I can't stand when people tout there personal beliefs as facts.) I will also give factual information about pregnancy, parenting, STD's, etc. I was raised in a family that basically lied to the children about sex. Sex was something secret and possible shameful, esp. if you weren't married. I was never given any honest information. As a result I am ashamed of my body and sometimes my sexuality. I know that I shouldn't be. I work on it. But you know what. Those ideas placed in my head at a very early age have had a profound impact on me. I just want my children to be as well informed as possible, and then I will pray that they will make choices that they are proud of. Truthfully, I am even a bit put off by people who say that they want their children to marry later in life. How can you know that that is what is best for them. I'm not promoting early marriage. That's a tough row to hoe. I would certainly encourage my children to wait until they know they are ready. But I would never tell them to wait X number of years. That's not my business once they are adults.


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## NaomiLorelie (Sep 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal*
Are people not reading the last page of this thread? Because other than head nodding (thank you) not ONE person has responded to my complaint that telling your children NOT to have sex before marriage ignores just about all people who are gay or bisexual who wish to marry a person of the same sex, BUT their govt will not allow them to (that is unless you live in a country where its legal). HELLO????























As long as the current social climate remains as it is, many people will ignore this topic. It is scary, uncomfortable, and as much as people don't want to admit it, having a child that is not heterosexual is completely out of their control and a very undesirable idea. I am not pointing any fingers or even addressing members at Mothering directly. I'm referring to large portions of society. I doubt there could be a truly honest conversation without the thread being closed.

That said, my child's sexuality is none of my business once they reach maturity. They are my children, I love them, and what goes on in their sex life in none of my business.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal*
telling your children NOT to have sex before marriage ignores just about all people who are gay or bisexual who wish to marry a person of the same sex, BUT their govt will not allow them to (that is unless you live in a country where its legal). HELLO????























Of course. I agree entirely, Jwebbal. I hear you!


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## huggerwocky (Jun 21, 2004)

It gives me the creeps that parents think their adult children ought to fulfill their parents rigid expectations regarding their sex life. It has nothing to do with respect if a child chooses to live differently from your own moral standards.


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *huggerwocky*
It gives me the creeps that parents think their adult children ought to fulfill their parents rigid expectations regarding their sex life. It has nothing to do with respect if a child chooses to live differently from your own moral standards.

I totally agree with this. I think it's okay to teach your kids to abstain, hey that's fine. But other than that, educate them about condom use, and about birth control. Most kids have sex by the time they are 18, if not before, whether their parents tell them not to or not. Parents who teach abstinence until marriage are often doing so out of religious convictions, and are really teaching their kids religion, not sex before marriage just because.

While parents have the right to bring a child up in whatever religion they like, they also need to allow their children the freedom to make their own choices when they are old enough. Parents need to accept it when children sometimes do not choose the same religion as their parents, nor hold themselves to the same moral standars.

My own parents didn't teach me about condoms or birth control, just "not to have sex". I ended up pregnant at 17. This is precisely why it is so important to make sure kids know how to protect themselves. Teaching abstinence only is setting your kids up for ignorance and faliure. Teaching abstinence along with STD and pregnancy prevention and education sets your child up for making the best decisions. Their are both emotional and physical aspects to sex that all children really need to understand by at least their teenage years, or once they start having all those feelings towards the opposite sex. Thats when parents should start having regular talks with them.

Some parents think their kids won't do that, or Sally doesn't need to know about all this because "she's too young" or Billy shoudln't learn about how to use condoms beacuse "it encourages promiscuity" or "he can't understand yet". They are mistaken. Once a child's body starts changing, and she starts having sexual feelings, they need to be talked about and addressed with a trusted adult, hopefully a parent, who can gently guide a child in the right direction, without demeaning their feelings.

If parents forgo these talks, or decide that they don't need to do it, children often end up repressed the act out when they are young adults, retreat into a secret life and hide it from their parents, get pressured into having sex and then lack the knowledge of how to protect themselves, or worse, fall victim to sexual abuse. What's even more terrible, very conservative parents who teach abstience only are very likely to judge and demean their children when they make choices outside of their parent's approval range. The children often end up hurt and rejected. It's a sad cycle, and it can be stopped, if parents are willing to recognize that they can teach still teach abstience as long as their are willing to have an open mind.

I know quite a lot about this subject because I was there, I experienced it. I was a teen mom. I was 18 when I had my first, young and unmarried. My mother taught be to abstain and nothing else. Almost everything I hear from her about sex was negative. As a result, I began to equate sex with something negative, and removed myself from having an emotional connections with boys I had sex with. Sex became lustful and without emotion, the very way she had wanted me not to think of sex in.

My mother cried when I got pregnant. We had grown up in a Christian church, which is wonderful, I love it there, but there were people there would suddenly didn't want me around their kids, because they didn't want to explain to them how someone could get pregnant without being married. That really hurt. I was made to feel as if I made a big mistake and, oh, I'd learn soon enough. I hated that feeling, and I still do. Even at 24 with two gorgreous babies I remember that feeling. I don't want any other teen mom to have to go through that, which is why it is so important, that we realize that while it's okay to teach abstinence and religion, we need to be sure that we teach tolerance, and love for one another. We must make sure we do not create divisons between one another simply because of sexual choices, and boundaries.

Also, I think it's a good idea that once a child is 18, parents really need to butt out. After the age of 18, it is no longer that parents' business unless it is under their roof, or their adult child decides to include them. That is a hard one for parents and it's going to be hard for me, just as it was for my mom. But you know what? It's essential that you back off and let your child make their own choices at that point, and for those of us who know we did a good job, as most of us do, our kids will know what to do, and when to come to us for advice.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess*
Holy Thread revival batman.









: Was just gonna say that.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angelpie545*
My own parents didn't teach me about condoms or birth control, just "not to have sex". I ended up pregnant at 17.

The same is true for my parents teaching, however, when I chose to go against their teaching, I knew exactly what to do. I didn't learn it in school, it was just common knowledge, and I am always shocked to see that others who grew up when I did, somehow didn't know that.









ETA- no judgement to that, it is just *really* surprising to me


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## papayapetunia (Feb 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Peppermint*
The same is true for my parents teaching, however, when I chose to go against their teaching, I knew exactly what to do. I didn't learn it in school, it was just common knowledge, and I am always shocked to see that others who grew up when I did, somehow didn't know that.









ETA- no judgement to that, it is just *really* surprising to me

Well...the same thing happened to me. I got pregnant at 20, which is quite old to not know about BC. I went to a Fundamental Baptist boarding school where we would have gotten into deep trouble if we talked about that sort of thing. From the school and from my parents, all I heard is that sex before marriage is a sin and you're a whore and a disgrace if you do it. When I graduated, I didn't care about being a disgrace and didn't think I was a whore, so I went ahead and lived my life the way I wanted to live it. I would have maybe wanted to know about pregnancy prevention, STDs, the fact that a lot of guys who want to have sex with you are jerks, you know, stuff like that. Even though I did have two years before I got pregnant in which I was in the real world where info is available, I was too embarrassed to ask. After being in that place, all I wanted to do was be normal. Asking about BC would have given away what a freak I was.

I don't know how else to explain my ignorance about BC. I've posted a lot about the school I went to and I don't want people to start rolling their eyes every time they see another post about it.


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## NaomiLorelie (Sep 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Peppermint*
The same is true for my parents teaching, however, when I chose to go against their teaching, I knew exactly what to do. I didn't learn it in school, it was just common knowledge, and I am always shocked to see that others who grew up when I did, somehow didn't know that.









ETA- no judgement to that, it is just *really* surprising to me

From my experience, growing up in such an environment leaves you ashamed to try to find out. Plus, preparing yourself feels as sinful as the act itself.


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## scruggle (Jun 4, 2006)

Oh my gosh! I just joined like today and I just can't help myself from saying this.... some of you are like, you should breastfeed unless it's necessary to feed formula, My child HAS to be in a carseat, I will not feed my child sugar in any form, etc, etc, etc. But you actually can say that it should be okay for your son or daughter to have sex outside of marriage? I mean, I see what one mom was saying about same-sex marriage but, hey, can we teach them about committment? Diseases like AIDS and other STDs are serious! This is more serious than the car-seat thing.


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## scruggle (Jun 4, 2006)

Oh yeah, I had my first son at 18, the FIRST time I had sex. I was not married and I am not married now. I am still with the same man and I hope to get married soon. I do understand about people not knowing about sex but I think that we should encourage our children to do more with thier lives than find good sexual partners.


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Peppermint*
The same is true for my parents teaching, however, when I chose to go against their teaching, I knew exactly what to do. I didn't learn it in school, it was just common knowledge, and I am always shocked to see that others who grew up when I did, somehow didn't know that.









ETA- no judgement to that, it is just *really* surprising to me

I knew about condoms and stuff, the problem was that I was is that I was embarrassed to talk about it, and embarrassed to insist on using it, and with no one to really talk to it about except my friends, I was kind of backed into a corner. I couldn't ask my mom how to use a condom, or where to go to get birth control, because all she would do is cry or make me feel very dirty for even wanting to have sex. And, because I had been sheltered so much, I had no idea how to have a relationship with a guy. So, when I finally got what I though was a good boyfriend, I wanted to hold on with every fiber of my being. I just didn't know any better.

There is more to it, I was also very lonely, and my father was dying at the same time. I had basically just started dating, and I was very emotionally vuenerable. I was lonely, and decided I didn't care if I got pregnant. So, overall, it was a mix of things. In the end, I'm glad I experienced this though so I will know what not to do with my daughters, so they will not have to go through any of that. My approach will be very different, and my girls are welcome to come to me with any questions.


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scruggle*
Oh my gosh! I just joined like today and I just can't help myself from saying this.... some of you are like, you should breastfeed unless it's necessary to feed formula, My child HAS to be in a carseat, I will not feed my child sugar in any form, etc, etc, etc. But you actually can say that it should be okay for your son or daughter to have sex outside of marriage? I mean, I see what one mom was saying about same-sex marriage but, hey, can we teach them about committment? Diseases like AIDS and other STDs are serious! This is more serious than the car-seat thing.

I don't think that we mean to say it's okay to have sex outside of marriage. I am a Christian and don't believe that it is okay. However, I understand that most teens to it regardless of what their parents say, so our approach to the subject of sex needs to be different. It's okay to teach abstinence, as long as you back it up with education about condoms/birth control, and about AIDS and STDs.

I think it is of utmost importance to educate our children about AIDS and STDs. Condoms are abstinence are the only ways to protect yourself from these. So, that brings in abstinence education, followed by education about condoms. I've sad it again and again, and abstinence only education with no mention about safe sex does. not. work. period.

I personally do not condone sex outside of marriage. However, I did it, even though I knew it was wrong, and I am not going to judge my kids for doing so. What I am getting at is we need to take a non-judgmental approach with our children, not a condoning approach. Basicallly, at the end of the day, parents do not have the choice as to whether or not their child will have sex before marriage. The best thing they can do is teach their child not to, but also arm their children with knowledge about safe sex, so that if their child ultimately makes the decision to have sex, they at least will know how to be safe about it.

Oh, and a word about committment. IMO, absolutely it is important to teach your child committment, especially in a marriage. This is one area in which I think society sells itself short. They advertise and popularize sexy women flirting with men, or married women having affairs (ala Desperate Housewives) and then wonder why the divorce rate is so high. Hmm...I wonder. The more the media condones and encourages affairs, the more our society is going to accept those behaviors as normal and acceptable. I find an affair, or cheating, to be entirely unaccepatable. This is one thing that I will instill in my children's minds. They need to be faithful ,and they deserve a spouse that is going to be faithful to them. The more committment is taught and examples of such are given to children, the better. IMO children need to grow up with a strong relationship role models from their parents. This is possible for single parents to do as well, or homosexual parents. Both single men and women who are parents can give their kids a healthy view of relationships based on their dating patterns. Those sho are in a comitted relationship should do so too, as well. This of course opens a whole new door, but the bottom line is children will model what they see. If parents want a hand a acutally having their kids abstain until marriage, their lifestyles should eminate what they want their children to learn.


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Quote:

But you actually can say that it should be okay for your son or daughter to have sex outside of marriage? I mean, I see what one mom was saying about same-sex marriage but, hey, can we teach them about committment? Diseases like AIDS and other STDs are serious! This is more serious than the car-seat thing.
Uh, yes. Of course I do. I would prefer that my children have sex BEFORE and IF they decide to get married, but hey, once they are out in the world I hope I have taught them well and they get to decide for themselves. It might be nice if they came to me for advice even, but I won't count on it.

Being that I have taught sexual education, encouraged it within the congregation and religion that I served as a Director of Religious Education, and think that I have a very healthy attitude about sexuality, I think I have a lot to say on the subject. The program we used was Our Whole Lives, developed jointly by the Unitarian Universalist Association and the UCC which is based on the Guidelines for Comprehensive Sexuality Education produced by the National Guidelines Task Force, a group of leading health, education, and sexuality professionals assembled by the Sexuality Information and Education Council of the United States (SIECUS).

http://www.siecus.org/pubs/fact/fact0003.html

The Our Whole Lives Values: Self Worth, Sexual Health, Responsibility, Justice and Inclusivity

I would never expect my child to express their sexuality ONLY within marriage or even within committement for that matter. I will teach them how to protect themselves both from unwanted pregnancy and from STD's, to understand that maturity and responsibility are important before becoming sexually active, how to be in a sexual relationship with another person (respectful, consensual, nonexploitative, mutually pleasurable, safe, developmentally appropriate, and based on respect, mutual expectations, and caring), that healthy love relationships are based on responsibility, respect, love, and commitment (and one doesn't need to be in a love relationship to be sexual if that is what one wants), how to evaluate and strengthen their own values (hopefully some of which I would have passed on to them), and to act on them. I will teach them that loving another person can be one of life's greatest joys, BUT if they choose not to do that that is okay too.

Other things? I will teach them to uphold the worth and dignity of people of all genders, including transgender people. That gender is not limited to male and female, and teach them the difference between gender identity and sexual orientation. I am already teaching my son to counter sexist stereoptypes and that its okay to be non-traditional, as well as traditional, when it comes to gender roles. I am already teaching my son that bisexuality, homosexuality, and heterosexuality are all natural sexual orientations, and that people of all sexual orientations have the right to express love, commitment, and pleasure. Of course I do it much more simply than I will in the future, as my son is only 2, lol. I am teaching him that masturbation is natural, safe and perfectly good form of sexual expreesion, again, much more simply now then say when he is 10, lol. Oh, and obviously I am teaching my son that family comes in MANY forms.

When my children are older I will teach them about HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases, of which I am always keeping myself up to date (it's a fascinating subject if you ask me), and how to keep themselves safer when they become sexually active. I will promote compassion in my children for those infected with HIV and afflicted with AIDS, and not to shy away from them. This is a very important one in my family for obvious and not so obvious reasons. Right now I am starting to teach him about universal precautions as can be understood by a 2 yo.

And it goes without saying that I am teaching him about bodies, their parts, what they are used for, birth, breastfeeding and so on and so forth. I am of the strong opinion that there are no things children are too young for, its only a matter of giving them information in a developmentally appropriate way that they can understand and that I attempt to give that information BEFORE they ask for it, to keep open the lines of communication between us and to show him that all questions are okay, and that we can talk about anything.

I love the OWL sexuality education program because of its primary assumption that parents are the primary sexual educators of their children, and also because it believes that sexuality education is something we learn all through our lives. We are sexual beings from day one, why wait till some magical age before bringing it up? The program actually starts for K-1 st grade children! I love that.

As to the quote above, I truly believe that not all people are cut out for commitements like marriage or long term relationships, yet they are SEXUAL beings who have a right to express that somehow, as long as it is done with responsibility. If they are able to handle it, I would never want my child to have to wait until they found the right person in order to express their sexuality (or even enjoy it!), as some might wait forever, OR settle for the wrong person in order to enjoy it with another person, OR not be able to just enjoy it while they live their lives. I treasure the experiences I had before I met my current partner of 14 years, some where not all that great, some were terrible, some were amazing. I wish I had the gifts I talk about above from my own parents, but sadly that wasn't the case, my mother was too ashamed to talk about sex, or sexuality, and we rarely talked about any of the other topics either. I plan to change that with my own children.

Yes, there are some serious diseases out there, I remember having to worry about them myself. But there are very good ways of protecting oneself.


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angelpie545*
I don't think that we mean to say it's okay to have sex outside of marriage. I am a Christian and don't believe that it is okay. ...........I personally do not condone sex outside of marriage. ............. The best thing they can do is teach their child not to, .............

Oh, and a word about committment. IMO, absolutely it is important to teach your child committment, especially in a marriage.... .The more committment is taught and examples of such are given to children, the better. IMO children need to grow up with a strong relationship role models from their parents. This is possible for single parents to do as well, or homosexual parents. Both single men and women who are parents can give their kids a healthy view of relationships based on their dating patterns. Those sho are in a comitted relationship should do so too, as well. This of course opens a whole new door, but the bottom line is children will model what they see. If parents want a hand a acutally having their kids abstain until marriage, their lifestyles should eminate what they want their children to learn.

I appreciate some of what you wrote, but am confused? You talk about no sex outside of marriage being best, about marriage, that gay couples can teach their children about committed relationships, abstinence till marriage, and so forth, but these your opinions don't agree with your own opinions? I don't mean to challenge you, just which is it?


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## NaomiLorelie (Sep 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scruggle*
Oh my gosh! I just joined like today and I just can't help myself from saying this.... some of you are like, you should breastfeed unless it's necessary to feed formula, My child HAS to be in a carseat, I will not feed my child sugar in any form, etc, etc, etc. But you actually can say that it should be okay for your son or daughter to have sex outside of marriage? I mean, I see what one mom was saying about same-sex marriage but, hey, can we teach them about committment? Diseases like AIDS and other STDs are serious! This is more serious than the car-seat thing.

These are all decisions we make for our children when they are too young to decide for themselves. My newborn will not be well educated in the benefits of breastfeeding. And I choose to feed my children a healthy diet now. That doesn't mean that I assume that they will not eat fast food every day when they are adults. The decision to have sex is one made by adults or sometimes people in their late teens. No matter what we taught them as a child, we have no control of them at that point. We can only hope they make good decisions and I would rather my child know about safe sex as well as abstinence because the days of the chastity belt are long over thank goodness.


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal*
I appreciate some of what you wrote, but am confused? You talk about no sex outside of marriage being best, about marriage, that gay couples can teach their children about committed relationships, abstinence till marriage, and so forth, but these your opinions don't agree with your own opinions? I don't mean to challenge you, just which is it?

You are right, those opinions aren't my personal opinions. Sorry, I could have worded it a lot better, I'm just tired and a bit sniffly.







: Let's see I'll try this again. My personal beliefs are: Sex outside of marriage *is* a sin. However, that is simply *my* personal opinion. That doesn't mean that my children have to live by it, or anyone else for that matter. What I was trying to say is that anyone can teach their children to have healthy relationships, no matter if they are of the opinion that sex outside of marriage is wrong.
Does that make sense?

What I was trying to get at, kinda, was that healthy relationships promote safe and secure sexual relationships. So no matter if marriage in involved, it is possible for a person to have a safe and healthy sexual relationship with someone. Also, even though I believe sex outside of marriage is a sin, I still did it myself. To condemn others for the same thing would be hypocritical. I don't want to be that way, I know that others are the same as me, and I would never want to condemn someone for doing something I myself did, even though I believe it is wrong in God's eyes.


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## FoxintheSnow (May 11, 2004)

What an interesting thread. I havent read the whole lot, but a great deal of it. DH and I are planning to teach ds to use condoms and treat women (or men if thats the case) with respect and to respect himself. I cant imagine having waited for marriage. I feel like sleeping with someone is part of getting to know them. Its not everything but it's part of it. IME, How someone is in bed says a lot to me about who they are as a person.


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

I got through reading this whole thread; do I get a sticker for that?









To answer the original questions, we are teaching our kids a view of sexuality that is consistent with our religious beliefs, which is that sexual behavior should be reserved for marriage as we understand it. I'm not really concerned that they would choose to marry young because of this, first of all because I don't think it's as common as a lot of people think it is, and secondly because I don't think there's anything wrong with young marriage. Marrying young does not prevent you from going to college or being financially successful, which I don't think are the end-all be-all of what I want for my kids anyway, and biologically humans are meant to start mating and breeding in their teens and early twenties, so it isn't some unnatural thing. Of course there's nothing wrong with marrying older, either. I *do* think that it's undesirable to marry just for sex, whether you're 18 or 48, but we are also teaching that marriage is a lifelong commitment, not something to be entered into lightly, so I don't think we're encouraging sex-based marriages.

For us, chastity is an attitude and a way of life, not just "technical virginity." I suppose the "standard" I would use would be any act that involves one or both parties taking off his or her clothes is a sexual act that should be reserved for marriage, but obviously that's just sort of a general guideline. But I think if it's something you sincerely believe in, you're not looking for technicalities or loopholes.

And of course it's true that we can't make these choices for them, and we're not trying to. We're just teaching them what our values are, not only about this but about everything. Obviously they can choose to accept or reject those values. I don't think teaching them what we believe in is controlling their adult lives or anything like that.

I will say that I firmly disagree with the way that "abstinence" is taught in public schools and many churches, and it doesn't surprise me at all that statistically these programs don't "work."

About the issue of legal marriage, this is a sensitive issue and I don't want to criticize anyone's beliefs or choices, but for us marriage is not a legal issue, it's a spiritual issue. I really don't agree with government-sponsored "marriage" at all. And in our beliefs, marriage is a lifelong commitment between a man and a woman. So we do believe that it is not appropriate to practice any kind of sexual behavior with any person other than the person of the opposite sex with whom you've made a lifelong spiritual commitment. *However* these are our beliefs and I absolutely respect the fact that other people believe differently, and I completely support everyone's right to his or her own beliefs and choices. I'm not going to say that someone who believes differently or lives differently is wrong or anything like that. And if my kids grow up to believe differently or live differently, I will respect that.

And now I will quietly slink away.


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## charmander (Dec 30, 2003)

I'm sorry, I don't get this whole "saving my virginity as a gift for my husband/wife on our wedding night."

It makes it sound like the human body is a commodity. That kinds of creeps me out.


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

We plan on encouraging our child(ren) to wait till they are ready emotionally for a possible child of their own to have sex (or for the sexual experience if it's not hetero since that wouldn't have the child possibility). I personally would prefer them to wait till marriage and will definitely tell them that at some point, but they will be educated about safe-sexual practises and it will be an open topic because I'd rather know and be trusted by my children than have a child of mine sneaking around behind my back with misinformation possibly contracting serious STDs that could have been prevented.

I do not expect my children to share my beliefs, but I want them to respect my beliefs (NOT follow them if they don't share them) the same way that I will respect whatever theirs are. I didn't wait till marriage, but did wait till I was dating dh. My parents would have disowned me had we gotten pregnant so I definitely researched bc at that time on my own. They never taught me anything but to wait till marriage. I would never disown a child of mine for any reason. Unconditional love is very important to me to show my children. Educating them to protect them and being open about the topic to allow them to feel comfortable coming to me with anything is also very important to me.

love and peace.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmd*
I'm sorry, I don't get this whole "saving my virginity as a gift for my husband/wife on our wedding night."

It makes it sound like the human body is a commodity. That kinds of creeps me out.

Yes! That is exactly what I was thinking. This whole business about asking the father "for his daughter" and that someone's virginity is a "gift they give their spouse" etc, makes it sound like the human body is a piece of property to be given away or asked for permission.

I think it is a ridiculous notion to put _your_ expectations and beliefs on sex on the shoulders of your child (collective you). Of course, we all model and teach and hopefully empart our wisdom or kindness or respect for others... but dictating when and who your *adult* (or close) children share their bodies with consensually?

I don't want to teach my child that sex is shameful, or wrong, or ugly outside the confines of marriage. I hope to teach her throughout her young life (and not just in terms of sex) that her body is beautiful, and strong, and able and a work of God's perfect design. I plan to provide honest information in terms of how her body works, what it does, what to expect physiologically, hormonally (in general), and emotionally (according my my experiences). This information won't be exclusive to speaking of sex, but will be all inclusive (meaning we will have open discussions about anything she expresses a desire to have an open discussion about).

I plan to teach her that feeling sexual desire is nothing to be ashamed of and that it is completely normal and okay, and healthy. I plan to share my own experiences -- I have always felt better emotionally when I reserved my sexual intimacy for people I was in long-term, committed relationships with -- as I felt both emotionally and physically safer and closer -- but I won't make her sign a contract or anything that she will follow that path.

I will be very honest and frank about birth control, STDs, AIDS, and pregnancy. I don't believe whatsoever that providing that information leads to sex, but that a LACK of information and honest, non-judgemental discussion is a surefire way to have your children become sexually active.

Furthermore, I will be open with her about sexuality. She will know from an early age anyway that while many couples are opposite sexed, that love comes in many forms -- and that if love, respect and commitment are cornerstones of a relationship... it doesn't matter if it is a man/man/woman/woman/man/woman whatever... I will let her know that no matter what her preference in who she desires genderwise, her father and I love her, cherish her, and will never make her feel a lesser part of our family.

I will let her know that the God we worship doesn't send loving, respectful people to hell -- regardless of who they may be sleeping with (adult and consenting of course).

It is my aim to teach our daughter about respect for herself and others long before she even knows what sex is (we started at birth lol). Hopefully in teaching her respect for her self, her emotions, her body, and her mind --- simply by we, her parents, respecting her in all those ways and modeling that respect in our interactions with other people... she will expect a certain level of treatment and that expectation will carry into her mature, sexual relationships.

I want a loving, fulfilling sexual experience to be a gift that my daughter gives _*herself*_. Not a piece of herself she gives to a man (or woman).


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## NaomiLorelie (Sep 2, 2004)

I have a question. Since waiting for marriage to have sex is more of a spiritual/religious thing, does gov't sanctioned marriage really have anything to do with it? Wouldn't a marriage in a gay/lesbian friendly church, or a commitment ceremony be the same thing even without being legally married? A marriage in a baptist church wouldn't be recognized if the couple decided to convert to say catholicism. I might look totally stupid asking this. I have no clue about these things.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

A woman having to "save herself" for marriage makes think that a woman has less worth without her hymen, and that thought makes me uke

In my cosmology, the ultimate force (god) isn't checking bedrooms.


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Quote:

I have a question. Since waiting for marriage to have sex is more of a spiritual/religious thing, does gov't sanctioned marriage really have anything to do with it? Wouldn't a marriage in a gay/lesbian friendly church, or a commitment ceremony be the same thing even without being legally married? A marriage in a baptist church wouldn't be recognized if the couple decided to convert to say catholicism. I might look totally stupid asking this. I have no clue about these things.
I guess so, but I don't think the majority of the people saying in this thread that their children should wait till marriage till they have sex would recognize a same sex marriage in a church that did those. Do you? My church does indeed marry same sex couples, legally in places like Mass. and Canada, and not legally in all the other states. We could choose to have a ceremony in our church, but have not, even though we definitely consider ourselves married for all intents and purposes. We are just waiting for legal marriage in our state to do the whole shebang.


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NaomiLorelie*
I have a question. Since waiting for marriage to have sex is more of a spiritual/religious thing, does gov't sanctioned marriage really have anything to do with it? Wouldn't a marriage in a gay/lesbian friendly church, or a commitment ceremony be the same thing even without being legally married? A marriage in a baptist church wouldn't be recognized if the couple decided to convert to say catholicism. I might look totally stupid asking this. I have no clue about these things.

Actually, I think the Catholic church would recognize a Baptist marriage and vice-versa, as long as the marriage was valid by that church's standards (they weren't already married to other people, etc.)

But, yes, I think most people who believe in chastity for religious reasons don't care about the legal aspect. For us, the commitment to each other before God is the "real" marriage, and the state marriage license is just a form so we can get insurance. Of course, most of us who believe in abstinance outside marriage and fidelity within marriage also believe that marriage is between a man and a woman, but it really has nothing to do with civil law.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea*
A woman having to "save herself" for marriage makes think that a woman has less worth without her hymen, and that thought makes me uke

For most people who believe in chastity, it has absolutely nothing to do with the physical aspect of "technical virginity." It is more about the spiritual aspect of being intimate with only one person.


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## mshollyk (Sep 24, 2002)

i just wanted to say to Jwebbal, thank you for all that you do!!!!!!!!!
















i've already posted my thoughts and *very painful* experiences with abstinence only in this thread.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna*
For most people who believe in chastity, it has absolutely nothing to do with the physical aspect of "technical virginity." It is more about the spiritual aspect of being intimate with only one person.

So what is the spiritual aspect of being intimate with only one person? If you aren't a virgin, does that make you less spiritual? Or does it make your marriage less spiritual, or less something?


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea*
So what is the spiritual aspect of being intimate with only one person? If you aren't a virgin, does that make you less spiritual? Or does it make your marriage less spiritual, or less something?

No, being a non-virgin certainly doesn't make you less spiritual (and of course you're not *supposed* to be a virgin if you're married). I'm only talking about *if* you believe that there's something positive, from a spiritual standpoint, about being intimate with only one person, with whom you've made a lifelong commitment. That it promotes a deeper bond if your partner is your "one and only" for life. If you don't believe that, then of course that doesn't mean anything to you, and that's okay. People can have different beliefs; I'm not saying you're wrong or anything. But the belief in chastity, at least as I understand it, really has nothing to do with having an intact hymen.

-


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Thanks for discussing so gently.

I still don't get it. I mean, if being a virgin for your husband makes for a deeper marital bond, then to me, that means that men love virgins more, or can't love non-virgins as much. Or that a man needs to totally own a woman for true love. What am I missing?


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea*
Thanks for discussing so gently.

I still don't get it. I mean, if being a virgin for your husband makes for a deeper marital bond, then to me, that means that men love virgins more, or can't love non-virgins as much. Or that a man needs to totally own a woman for true love. What am I missing?

Well, I don't think virginity has anything to do with "ownership," nor necessarily with gender (we believe chastity is important for both sexes, although I know traditionally there has been a double standard). And it isn't a matter of loving virgins more, but that there is something special about a relationship between two people who are committed exclusively to each other for life. And it makes the sexual act more special to know that you have only ever done it with him and he has only ever done it with you. I don't know that it's something that can be "explained," because it's not really a matter of logic or rationality.

For what it's worth, I consider myself to have been a virgin when I married my dh, but he was not. He was appreciative of the fact that I had waited for him and he wished that he had waited for me.

Basically it is taking the concept of monogamy to the next level--not only being exclusive to your partner while you're with him, but before, too.

I do sort of understand the arguments against it, and really there is no "reason" to practice either abstinence or monogamy, except for a religious or spiritual belief (which is why I'm against paying for abstinence ed with tax dollars but that's a whole other day's topic). So I think that people who don't share that belief probably mostly think it's pointless, just like people who don't believe in prayer think that's pointless, or people who don't believe in communing with nature tend to think that's pointless, but for people who believe, it makes sense... I don't know; it's not an "empirical" issue is what I mean.


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## ^guest^ (Jul 2, 2005)

Have you ever seen Hogan Knows Best? Have you seen how Terry tries to be the Champion of his daughter's eternal virginity? It's creepy to me. It's downright disturbing. I don't think you can force a person to be a virgin unless you do as he does and monitor your child 24/7 until they are an old man/maid.

I think it's far more important to teach priorities and self-respect. If a child's priorities are in place, and they have enough self respect, they will not regret their decisions, whatever they are.


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Neoma*
Have you ever seen Hogan Knows Best? Have you seen how Terry tries to be the Champion of his daughter's eternal virginity? It's creepy to me. It's downright disturbing. I don't think you can force a person to be a virgin unless you do as he does and monitor your child 24/7 until they are an old man/maid.

I think it's far more important to teach priorities and self-respect. If a child's priorities are in place, and they have enough self respect, they will not regret their decisions, whatever they are.

Okay, I promise I am not trying to be argumentative. But I have seen this point mentioned several times and I wanted to briefly address it. I read this entire long, 3-yr-old thread, and, although it's possible that I missed something, I don't recall *any* of the pro-abstinance people suggest that they would "enforce" abstinance, follow their adult children around, etc. I certainly would not. My children's choices, when they are old enough to make them, are entirely their own. I sincerely hope that they will have the right to make those choices, not only about this but about everything in their lives, without any kind of force or coersion. I don't think anyone is talking about "forcing" their kids to be chaste, which would of course be impossible without some seriously inappropriate control over an adult child. What we are talking about is teaching our values to our children. Teaching our values about sexuality in the same way we teach our values about everything else. Whether those values include waiting until you're married, or in a commited relationship, or having "safer" sex, or having self-respect, or whatever. I don't think the people who said they teach their children about birth control and "safer" sex are going to be spying on their adult children in the bedroom and saying "hey, are you using protection?" It is about communicating our values to our children.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna*
Okay, I promise I am not trying to be argumentative. But I have seen this point mentioned several times and I wanted to briefly address it. I read this entire long, 3-yr-old thread, and, although it's possible that I missed something, I don't recall *any* of the pro-abstinance people suggest that they would "enforce" abstinance, follow their adult children around, etc. I certainly would not. My children's choices, when they are old enough to make them, are entirely their own. I sincerely hope that they will have the right to make those choices, not only about this but about everything in their lives, without any kind of force or coersion. I don't think anyone is talking about "forcing" their kids to be chaste, which would of course be impossible without some seriously inappropriate control over an adult child. What we are talking about is teaching our values to our children. Teaching our values about sexuality in the same way we teach our values about everything else. Whether those values include waiting until you're married, or in a commited relationship, or having "safer" sex, or having self-respect, or whatever. I don't think the people who said they teach their children about birth control and "safer" sex are going to be spying on their adult children in the bedroom and saying "hey, are you using protection?" It is about communicating our values to our children.

Thank you! Very well said.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna*
Of course, most of us who believe in abstinance outside marriage and fidelity within marriage

I would just like to point out that your religious believes don't give you a monopoly on morality and that lots of people believe in fidelity within a monogamous relationship without dictating who can and cannot be recognized as having made such a commitment.


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annakiss*
I would just like to point out that your religious believes don't give you a monopoly on morality and that lots of people believe in fidelity within a monogamous relationship without dictating who can and cannot be recognized as having made such a commitment.

No, of course we don't have a "monopoly on morality." I never said that we did; I said that people are entitled to have different beliefs and I'm not going to say that they're wrong.

And we're not dictating who can be recognized, or at least I'm not. I totally support individual freedom of choice as long as you're not hurting someone else. That doesn't mean I personally agree with everyone's choices, but I'm not dictating them.


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