# Just Say NO!



## CalgonMoment (Dec 4, 2004)

I hope this doesn't get me flamed. Please understand this is genuine confusion. I keep reading in hospital birth stories how "they" didn't "let" you do something, or how you were "made" to do something else. I have had three hospital births and they were all pretty good. I am not understanding how a hospital can make you stay in bed or make you have pitocin, or make you deliver in lithotomy position.

I can understand how you might have AROM or episiotomy without consent, but I am trying to figure out how I can politely inform my caregivers that I would consider that assault.

I don't think of myself as a major rebel, and I am fairly coherent in labor. But when my nurse didn't want to give me anything to eat or drink, I insisted that I knew the risks and was willing to assume them. I agreed to a monitor strip as a baseline, but after that told her she could monitor me by hand or forget it, because I was not getting back in that bed. And I told them that I was not going to put my feet in stirrups for birth, end of discussion.

Maybe it is just in hindsight that women feel like they were forced to do something and use those terms, but I am really wondering if women are being physically forced to labor or deliver certain ways? Please tell me your stories. I am at a different hospital this time and would like to know if this may be something I need to be prepared for.


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## earthmama007 (Dec 29, 2001)

I believe it is misinformation and scare tactics caregivers and nurses give or they might have a golf game to get to. Some moms don't know they have choices. Something may have happened to them with a previous birth due to interventions and now they are grateful to doctors because 'they saved them or their babys from death'. Now they believe everything the doc says.These are just some reasons of course.


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## Crystal_clear (Jan 19, 2004)

A lot of the time it's because of scare tactics, they love to play the dead-baby card. Or sometimes they say, "oh sure you can walk with the IV" or "oh sure, let's just get a 20-minute strip, then you can walk" and the story changes after they've got your cooperation. Sometimes they wait until the mother is a little out of it and less resistant - I've read many stories where mom didn't want something done but was unable to verbalize her objections. I have also read some stories where women were physically forced. Don't forget, it wasn't that long ago that women were put in restraints for hospital birth. And of course, when one is being presented with options and alternatives, the one that is never mentioned is "we can do nothing".


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

this is one of the major reasons I am birthing at home- I have heard things from friends that range from "they threatened to call DCFS" to "they said my baby would die" to "they kicked me while I was down when I was in the most pain- saying epidural, epidural, etc, wouldn't you like some pitocin to speed up things so you don't have to hurt so much, etc"

I know that I may be strong enough to say no- but I don't want to have to- I want to know that everyone is on board and will honor my wishes. I don't want to have to fight or remain coherent while giving birth.

I know a lot of women who are just not able to stand up for themselves in birth situations- I'm glad you were able to- I hate hearing about "they wouldn't let me" "they made me" etc.


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## Full Heart (Apr 27, 2004)

When I had my hospital birth I was so out of it. 36 hour labor (hard hard labor), all alone, totally out of it. Before I got to the hospital I couldn't even sit up anymore on my own. So when I was left alone I could hardly speak or open my eyes. They started pit without my consent. Even if I wanted to say no I couldn't. After my midwife came back and my dh and mother showed up I fianlly got stuff done but with me alone they could have sectioned me and I wouldn't have had a say. My midwife was livid they started pit and they hadn't had me try to pee or cathed me yet. Of course as soon as they did that baby moved down and wow I'm complete and want to push. At this point I actually had a conversation with my midwife and I can't recall it at all. I completely blacked out. After the birth I hemmoraged and had very little to eat. No one to help me pee. Oh it was lovely. They took my baby without my consent because again I was alone and couldn't say no. At this point I was up for 48 hours. My baby kept crying and I kept falling asleep having terrible nightmares.

Now I am a very strong generally. My fil calls me a snot nosed little brat lol. Which is why I have hbs. I am not one to sit by and be the good patient. My hospital birth I couldn't be strong anymore and there was no one to advocate for me. It does happen. Now most women I know who have this happen just don't know their options or rights. But me I did, and I still couldn't excercise them.

michelle


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## Kiki Runs (Oct 7, 2002)

Eh, hypothetically, you're right - just say no, end of story. In real life, though, it doesn't always work so well.

Just so you know, I'm NOT offended or upset, just want to try to shed some light on this.

I ended up with an unnecessary c/s - completely iatrogenic. My birth plan clearly stated no AROM, do not offer drugs, basically just leave me alone (let me walk, eat, drink, whatever I want). It was signed off on by the OBs in the practice I was using, the OB nurse who taught our "childbirth education" class (what a joke, but anyway) looked it over and saw no problem with it (BTW, she also ended up being my nurse during my labor - two different shifts). Good to go, right? No.

Despite my birth plan clearly stating no AROM, I was REPEATEDLY "asked" if I wanted it - I would guess I was asked five times. A few of the times, I was told that I *would* want it eventually b/c it would speed up my labor, and that the doc was going to go lay down and sleep for the night, so basically I better do it now or wait until morning. Every time AROM was offered, I politely declined and reminded the nurse that my birth plan said no AROM. When I was told the doc was going to go to sleep, I said "fine, I'll see him tomorrow". The doc actually came into my room before he went to lay down to try to talk me into it. I still held out. Finally, in the early morning hours (I think around 5ish), I was "asked" again. I asked my DH what he thought I should do - he said "go ahead". Even though we had discussed it prior to labor and he knew his job was to remind me I didn't want it, even though I KNEW I didn't want it - I was just beat down. How many times should someone have to decline a non-necessary procedure? Obviously, *I* should have done it at least one more time, lol!

So I agreed. AROM was done, my ctx immediately got horrible - back labor. I toughed it out for awhile - sat on a birth ball, tried hands and knees on the bed, walked a bit. *I* didn't know what else to do, my mom didn't know, my DH didn't know. We asked the nurse what else we could try, she offered drugs (remember, my birth plan specifically says DON'T offer drugs, this lady has seen my birth plan and said she completely supported me in it). No thanks, I said, I don't want drugs. Fine, whatever, says nurse and she leaves. That's it - no more suggestions of what I could do. I got back in the bathtub, which helped a bit, she wants me to get out for monitoring. I eventually agree to a vag check (I wanted to know how much progress all this hard work was making). According to the nurse, I have now REGRESSED in my dilation. I believe her, b/c I can feel myself tensing during a ctx and suspect I may be pushing a bit during them. I found out later by looking at my medical records that she LIED to me - I had NOT regressed, in fact I had dilated maybe 1/2 cm more since last check (which she had also done, and she recorded the two checks, so it's not a matter of different measurements or an "oops" - she KNEW). So at that point, I agreed to the epidural.... thinking that I HAD to relax somehow in order to dilate enough to have this baby.

So I have the epidural. Now I cannot get up, cannot get myself anything to eat or drink, I'm basically stuck in the bed - have to have help to turn from side to side! I ask my mom for a drink, she asks the nurse, nurse says no b/c I could throw it up. I can't exactly get up and get myself the drink, my mom won't go against the medical flow, not much I can do about this. Eventually, I start vomiting anyway. At that point, I (somehow, not sure how I was lucid enough for this logic, lol) pointed out that since I was vomiting anyway, might as well let me drink. Nurse finally agrees, tells my mom that I can have a few sips of water. Again, mom follows orders. Same for food - I BEGGED for food, mom says no b/c nurse says no. Again, after I started puking, I was "allowed" A cracker. Yes, it did come right back up, but that was better (to me) than the dry-heaving.

Fast-forward to the actual pushing. I was, like they say, flat on my back, lithotomy position. I was told that the epidural was "turned off" once I felt the need to push, but I do not believe that anymore (based on the fact that LESS THAN three hours after my c/s, I was able to move myself). So I pushed and pushed, for three hours. During that time, I was "cheerleaded", despite my birth plan stating NOT to do it. I was not in any condition to ask them to stop - maybe a stronger person could have, but by this time I was just beat down and following orders, yk? Purple pushing, for three hours, with multiple threats of c/s. I freaked out at every mention, and the doc "allowed" me to continue pushing. I asked for help to get onto hands and knees (and, seriously, I think I deserve a medal for even THINKING of that by that point), and was told that if I could flip MYSELF over to hands and knees, the nurse would "help" me stay there. WTH??!! Needless to say, I could not accomplish this feat, so remained flat on my back. Now I wish I had thought to demand they help me, or at the very least help me on my side, but at the time, I could NOT think of these things - like I said, I congratulate myself every time I remember that I even thought to ask about hands and knees. So more pushing, flat on my back. Have I mentioned that we could touch DS' head? DH, my mom, and myself all rubbed his little head and saw what color his hair was, he was so far down. Almost there!

Finally, the doc (with an apologetic expression :eyeroll) said that we were going to "have" to do a c/s. No, baby was not in distress, I was not in distress (well, other than the distress from being repeatedly threatened with a c/s). The only reason for the c/s was that the doc felt we'd waited long enough. Yeah, I know I could have refused it - NOW. At the time, it wasn't presented as an optional thing. It took an hour from that time to prep me and get me to the OR, and I bawled my head off the whole time. The anesthesiologist admonished me to hold still, I was crying so hard.

There were a lot of moments in there where I *could* have just said no, and looking back I *should* have just said no, and I very much wish I *had* just said no, but at the time, it wasn't that easy. There were also times where I repeatedly DID say no, and it was ignored.

I have gone over and over and over DS' birth in my mind, and I know just how many times *I* made the wrong call, wasn't assertive enough, whatever. BUT at the time, I was doing the best I could. I did NOT expect for my wishes to be completely ignored - especially since they had been approved by both the docs AND the nurses on the floor. I guess I was naive, b/c I never imagined that I would be in the situation that I was. I thought that docs/nurses would have my best interest at heart, and they would do their best to follow my birthplan. Now I know better, and I will not EVER put myself in a situation like that again.

Had I had a doula, things might have been different. Had my DH and my mom been more committed to helping me "rebel" and less compliant with the hospital's policies, things might have been different. Had I been able to advocate for myself better, things might have been different. But none of those were the case.

Like someone else said, I shouldn't HAVE to defend myself while I'm laboring. If I decline AROM once, that should have been the end of it - in fact, I should not have even been ASKED about AROM. So many things went wrong, and I've been over and over what I should have done differently - I highly doubt that the docs/nurses have even given my DS' birth a second thought. Whereas I have suffered from PPD and PTSD from it, and have cried myself to sleep many nights, knowing that I SHOULD have just said no.

Like I said, I'm not offended, I just want to present a different side. I consider myself a reasonably intelligent woman (I was a National Merit Scholar - woo-woo, lol). I did educate myself before DS' birth, though admittedly not to the extent that I am now. I thought I had prepared myself for the birth - I just had not prepared myself for the hospital staff. I also recognize (now) that my personality is not such that I can assert myself easily. I tend to try to please "authority" figures, and so it was tough for me to repeatedly say no to the nurses or docs - though I did!

After my experience, I have come to realize that I will NEVER feel comfortable giving birth in a hospital again (barring TRUE emergencies). And I will not do it - that simple. I can't guarantee that I would be able to defend myself during labor any better the next time (I certainly HOPE I would, but can't guarantee it), and more importantly, I don't believe I should have to. I don't want to be pulled out of my labor-land far enough to sensibly defend myself, and so won't put myself in a position where I might have to.

So, while it sounds good in theory to "just say no", in practice it's not that easy. Apparently, "no" doesn't always mean "no" when you're in a hospital.

I've heard some good stories about births in hospitals, but I've heard many more bad ones. Based on my experience, there's just no way I could ever have enough trust in the medical "professionals" to relax enough to birth, even if I was in an amazing hospital. I'd always be suspicious and waiting for the other shoe to drop. Once bitten, twice shy, I guess.

Kinsey


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## sarajane (Oct 20, 2004)

Thanks for sharing your story. Sorry it was a bad experience for you.

I have heard many, many stories just like yours. Out of all the birth stories I have heard about 95% of the hospital stories have been bad experiences even for women who wanted drugs and complied willingly with the hospital's way of doing things.

I understand you not being able to say no. I asked my mid-wife and her assistant about the births they did that ended up being really long and ended up in a hospita transfer and in ALL the cases it was a case of emotional stress from outside sources. (sad to say one of them came from a doula who cared more for the hubby than the mother if you know what I am saying) Things were going fine for this mother until this point apparently.

Emotions obviously play a big part in our ability to let go and let our body do what it needs to get the baby out. She said that everything was fine in these births, no distress or anything and things slowed only when the mother had some outside distraction that caused her to stress, get sad, upset, etc. None of the distractions had to do with what was actually going on in the labor. Labor was normal and the baby was fine.

I believe she told my husband and I this to help us to understand the importance of keeping out unwanted interruptions during my labor. I already knew this but she really drove the point home for me. In one case the labor ended up being over two days long and the baby came when the mother felt better emotionally and was ready to go.

I can't imagine being relaxed and ready to go in a place where everyone is pushing me to do things I don't want to do. Yeah, I can say no but think about all the distractions. Think about all the stress it can possibly cause. The story above goes to show that a woman in labor cannot always keep everyone around her in check and she shouldn't have to do so.

I haven't been in labor yet but from all I have read, all the stories, facts, good and bad....it would seem that being in the hospital whether you want to be or not (in most cases not all) just causes too much discomfort (emotional and physical), distraction, unwanted intervention, and just makes labor take longer and makes it more difficult. Even causes complications. There are situations where hospital is best but I don't think they come along as often as the doctors would like us to think, not near as often.

I did search doctors out some and even went to see one for my first prenatal and have yet to meet any doctor or nurse who isn't pushy at least a little bit. I really had to fight just to get answers to the questions I wanted and needed to ask at that prenatal. After that I knew I was having my baby at home. I had decided before that on a homebirth and that one visit really convinced me beyond any shadow of a doubt.

I personally don't want to be treated that way. More like prisoner than a patient. That one doctor visit was traumatic enough for me.


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## orangebird (Jun 30, 2002)

I knew I had choices but the nurse threatened me with my baby's health. I cried begged and screamed no when she told me I needed to stay in bed. I needed help getting all the equipment off me. I wasn't brave enough to just break it. I was afraid that messing with it trying to figure out how to get it off would break it or something. I needed help to figure out how to get up with the IV. The bag was hanging on a pole that was fastened to the bed, not the kind on wheels. I didn't know anything about medical stuff and didn't know how do hep-lock the IV myself or that I could pull the bag off the hook and carry it, I didn't know how it worked and thought I would get air into the tubing if I tried to mess with it myself. I *DID* say no. I screamed no. She was mean and scary and would yell at me for moving when the baby's heart rate wouldn't be picking up on the monitor good. I knew that if she got that mean just for me shifting my butt on the bed she would get real mean if I started pulling things off and breaking them. After a couple hours of that she told me my baby could die because I was too stressed out. You bet I was stressed out I had been crying and begging to get up and the pain was excruciating. By this time I was in hard labor and not in the mental capacity to rationalize. She told me I needed the epidural to save my baby's life and I believed it. Sounds dumb, we sit here with clear minds and know that wasn't true, but this was my first baby, I was near transition and it hurt like hell, the nurse told me something could be hurting my baby and of course I did what she told me would "save" him. I am so resentful of that nurse and the whole experience. It is easy to sit here and say "you should have _______" but it is a whole different ball game when you are a first time mom hitting transition. You need to A) either stay away from the hospital completely, or B) get shit straightened out before you are in hard labor. By that I mean make sure you have a nurse that respects your wishes while the pain is still at a managable level. My labor came on so fast and hard by the time I got to the hospital my contractions were 2-3 minutes apart and over a minute long. Or even closer probably, they were 3 minutes apart when I was timing them at home and it was much worse at the hospital.

I had a birth plan written up, it was probably tossed out by the nurse as she didn't do one thing on it. My doctor had told me I could walk around, that I could have the natural, calm, quiet birth I desired. That didn't matter.

I know it is not just hindsight making me feel like I was forced. I know this because I was literally crying and BEGGING. She didn't even want to help me up out of bed to go pee. When I asked the second time she offered me a urinary catheter. Real sweet. Was I forced to have a catheter? No. I could have just peed in the bed. I have written this story so many times so sorry if it is not in storybook form. It was real begging and pleading and the nurse saying no. Now that I know a little more, know I can just rip the IV out of my arm if I want and that I won't break the EFM taking it off I would just rip out the IV and rip off the monitor and get up and tell the nurse where to go and find a new one. I would do this now. But back then I really didn't feel comfortable manipulating the equipment. I wish I had been more ballsy and just ripped the stuff off and threw it across the room.

I went on to have a healing second birth at home and god willing I will never birth in the hospital again. If I do ever end up there I won't be afraid to tear the equipment off myself. I know now that I can ask for a different nurse. And I know to bring someone with me who will stand up to them when I am in hard labor and aren't able to fight for myself.


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## Crystal_clear (Jan 19, 2004)

This was just recently posted on the ICAN list. From a medical journal (reference at the bottom):

Getting a stubborn patient to say Yes

When a woman threatened to compromise her own and her baby's health, this doctor was able to defuse the situation with a "one-text" solution.

By Rajamalliga N. "Lee" Sharma, MD

I walked into Labor and Delivery on a slow Sunday morning. The board was empty, giving every indication that this would be a nice, calm day. Then my partner dropped a bomb. "A patient I've seen a lot of is coming in," he said. "She's a previous section, and broke her water an hour ago. You may have a tough time with her. She's got a mind of her own and is bent on doing this her way."

I nodded and smiled. "No problem." Most people are fairly cooperative once they reach Labor and Delivery. I didn't anticipate any difficulty.

That was at 9 am. By 2 pm, the patient had not yet arrived, and I'd gone home to wait. When I phoned the hospital at 3, a nurse told me that the patient had finally come in, but "just to have her cervix checked." She fully intended to labor at home, and assumed we'd do what she asked and send her on her way. At the time, according to the nurse's exam, she was dilated 1 cm. Although she had been talked into seeing me, she'd refused admission, monitors, IV, even a hospital gown. I told the exasperated nurse I'd be there momentarily.

As I climbed into my car, I thought about how I was going to handle the situation. Fortunately, I had studied conflict resolution, and began to consider what course of action I could take that the patient might find satisfactory.

In conflict situations, many tools can be drawn upon to help resolve the situation and avoid making things worse. In their book, Getting to Yes, Roger Fisher and William Ury describe a joint problem-solving process called the "one-text" procedure, which I thought might be effective here. This method requires you to understand the other person's concerns, then address them by crating a detailed solution. The solution is the one-text - a statement of goals and how to reach them. It must be something the other party can respond to with either Yes or No. The one-text approach leaves no room for negotiating or uncertainty. If it's rejected, it must be revised until consensus is reached. What makes the one-text approach so effective in doctor-patient relationships is that it moves us away from trying to defend our point of view, and toward a more cooperative and sympathetic mindset in which we consider our patient's needs as well as our own. It also encourages us and our patients to refine our ideas so we can reach an agreement based on mutual objectives.

For the one-text method to succeed, certain things should be avoided.

1. Don't get angry. The initial thought that went through my head when the nurse phoned me was, "How dare this woman! Here it is, Sunday afternoon, I've been waiting for her since 9, and when she finally shows up six hours later and has the gall to order us around!" I had to stop and remind myself that her behavior was not directed at me. Patients who make these kinds of demands are usually trying to control the situation in an effort to keep their own fear in check. Few things are as daunting as labor, especially for someone who has had a primary cesarean delivery. If I walked into that room irritated, I realized, all I would do is ruin the possibility of maintaining a good working relationships with my patient.

2. Don't get pushy. Back in the "good old days", the doctor's word was law. If a physician said that jumping in the air three times induced labor, patients would be out on a trampoline. But today we encourage patients to be active participants in their own care, rather than taking our word as gospel. Although it's sometimes inconvenient and time-consuming, allowing the patient to participate in decision-making enhances the relationships between caregiver and recipient.

3. Don't counterattack. I had to be prepared for the possibility that, because she was scared, this woman might hurl ultimatums and insults at me. Such hostility, I reminded myself, wasn't a personal attack. By keeping a level head - and using humor, hand-holding, and other supportive behavior - I could prevent the conflict from escalating.

Part of understanding conflict is realizing that specific motives usually underlie another person's demands. Designing the one-text with a contrary patient can help you understand what his or her motives may be. On that Sunday, I began by unhurriedly taking the patient's history in order to get to know her. I learned that she wanted a vaginal delivery because she hoped to return to her work as a missionary in South America as soon as possible. I also found that she had tried to educate herself about active management of labor, but that her understanding of it was incomplete. Mentally, I adjusted my one-text based on her background. Since she knew something about labor and delivery, I reasoned that she would cooperate with us if I explained, from a medical standpoint, exactly why certain things had to be done in order for her to have a healthy baby.

"My two goals for you, which I believe you share, are, first, to have a vaginal delivery, if possible, and second, to have a healthy baby." She nodded. "Because you had a C-section in the past, specific risks must be addressed. The most worrisome complication of a vaginal birth after a C-section is separation of the scar on the uterus. The first indication of this would be an abnormality in the baby's heartbeat. That's why continuous monitoring will be very helpful. Also, since you're not having any contractions yet, we should consider low-dose Pitocin to start your labor; if we wait too long, we'll risk an infection from ruptured membranes. And an IV would help protect you and your baby in the event of an emergency, which I hope won't happen." Having put my one-text solution on the table, I asked, "Are these things that you agree with and think you can do?"
Although this patient had adamantly refused attentive care minutes earlier, she now knew why such measures were critical to a safe vaginal delivery. Her demeanor suddenly altered. No longer the stubborn, difficult patient who had so frustrated her nurse, she answered my question with a simple, "Yes, I can." She was placed on a monitor, received an IV, and was started on Pitocin. Four hours later, I delivered her healthy baby boy vaginally.

A situation that was potentially rife with conflict was resolved in a constructive way and resulted in a very positive experience for both patient and physician. Perhaps the most important lesson was that conflict itself presents a valuable opportunity to become better and more creative. If we can approach conflict without fear, the possibilities are endless.

Medical Economics - Obstetrics-Gynecology - October 2000,
p. 80.


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## sarajane (Oct 20, 2004)

Quote:

The initial thought that went through my head when the nurse phoned me was, "How dare this woman! Here it is, Sunday afternoon, I've been waiting for her since 9, and when she finally shows up six hours later and has the gall to order us around!"
I hadn't finished reading yet but had to say how absolutely angered I am at a doctor having this mindset. I sure wouldn't want a doctor with that kind of attitude. Waiting on her since 9! My goodness, babies don't come on a time schedule!


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

In my hospital birth, I agreed to things I wrote in my birth plan that I would not do, such as AROM, monitor and forceps delivery. I knew how to be stubborn and say no, but those nurses were just so nice and the doctor really was welcoming and pleasant, I didn't feel like arguing!









The issues that were of greatest importance - dh's right to be with me at all times, dd never being taken away from me, and no drugs - never even came up, so I didn't have a chance to argue about those.

What about the threat of insurance not paying if you don't follow orders? That may be an issue for some people.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

The inability to say no to interventions isn't limited to the hospital context. I had my ds in a freestanding birth center, thinking that would help prevent me from having to deal with pushy obs/nurses in the first instance. Well, I ended up with a medwife, not a midwife. AROM, purple pushing on my back/semi-sitting, catheter, episiotomy, deep suctioning of ds on my perineum because of light meconium staining - the works.

I think in part because I didn't have any drugs, my head was so far off in non-rational labor land I was NOT able to summon the mental power to refuse. And I was very educated about birth, interventions, etc. My dh is much more medically compliant than I am, not to mention less educated about natural birth, so went along with the midwife's suggestions and didn't advocate for me, and my doula didn't show up.







So I was essentially on my own, and that wasn't good enough.

It's great if you can stay rational enough to say no. But I think you have to take into consideration not only the standard operating procedures of many hospitals - and midwives! - but also the issue of whether a laboring woman can be, or should be, expected to stay in her "rational" mind as opposed to letting go and letting her animal brain take over.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Doula, doula...get a doula...

We can't "save" you from interventions, but we can help you advocate for yourself while in the hospital. Remind you of your goals, see through some of the medical jargon, and be that clear head to help you weigh your options in the moment. Not to mention we're pretty good at helping through contractions too







!


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## Henry's_Mamma (Jan 23, 2004)

I just want to second about 90% of what Kinsey said. I have a very similar birth story and (it seems) personality while in labor. And my dh flaked out a bit too. Labor is all consuming, and when it's your first, and you are being told things you had never considered prior to birth, it is difficult to differentiate between the bs and the truth. In my case, my membranes spontaneously ruptured at home (after about 10 hours of contractions over night, so when my water broke, I'd been up for about 24 hours). I went in to the hospital and was told I had to stay in bed on my back b/c there was now a risk of cord prolapse (a real emergency) b/c ds was not fully engaged. How do you argue with that? Maybe I could have argued that they were being ridiculous (which, in hindsight, based on further research, I think they were) if I had tons of info. at my hands, but even so, despite being fairly well educated about birth, I didn't know what to say. Further, I'm not so sure that I would've been able to articulate my arguments in any kind of coherent, positive way. So, I think it largely depends on the personalities of everyone involved (not every person is good at being their own advocate in labor -- and not every dh or labor partner is willing to challenge the establishment), but more importantly, on how each woman's labor is progressing. I think many women who don't have problems arguing in hospitals have labors that naturally follow the medical establishment's idea of what "normal" labor is. Those that don't follow that curve have problems and threats and coercion.

To the op ... talk to everyone you can find who has delivered in your new hospital, esp. those in the "natural" birth community (maybe attend a LLL meeting and ask around). Go on a tour. Talk to your drs., mws, and the nursing staff. Make a birth plan. Educate yourself and your labor partner/dh. Hire a doula.

Good luck!


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## Artisan (Aug 24, 2002)

Sometimes saying no doesn't work. I had a hospital delivery with my first, and despite being told by the nurse during the tour and my midwife that I would be able to having "rooming in" when the baby was born, that didn't happen. The hospital had a policy that dads had to go home at 8:00 pm once you were moved to the recovery ward, and moms had two choices. 1) Keep the baby with you in the room but leave the lights on. Babies were not allowed to be with moms in the dark. 2) Turn out the lights to get some sleep but send the baby to the nursery.

I'm pretty assertive, and verbally told them that the baby did not belong to them, he belonged to me. And that I was going to get some sleep and the baby would be fine. The nurses came in REPEATEDLY to turn the lights back on in the room, citing hospital policy. I asked to speak to their higher-up. I called my husband, I called my midwife, they all spoke to management, management wouldn't budge. I hadn't slept in days. I was exhausted.

My point is that sometimes saying no just results in a giant battle which most women in labor and post partum women don't feel like fighting.


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## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

IMO If it was so easy to just "say no" when the hospital personel tried push, scare or bully a woman into doing something she does not want or had not planned to, then there would be no use for Doulas.


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

Greaseball, insurance can only threaten to not pay if you sign yourself and your baby out against medical advice (AMA).


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## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *reader*
moms had two choices. 1) Keep the baby with you in the room but leave the lights on. Babies were not allowed to be with moms in the dark. 2) Turn out the lights to get some sleep but send the baby to the nursery.


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## CalgonMoment (Dec 4, 2004)

Wow, I have had my eyes opened. I guess I have had it pretty easy. I have a dh who is a nurse and is very supportive of my pov, even when he thinks I am a bit extreme. So the medical end of it isn't as scary to me. and maybe because the L&D nurses know him, they don't pull the kind of nonsense that they would on others. I am humbled. Even my most frustrating births were cakewalks compared to what I have read here.

It probably has also helped that I don't get uncommunicative when I am in labor. Only during contractions. Otherwise I can communicate easily even through my (quick) transitions. This is probably why I am still willing to do hospital births. If I had to go through what some of you have. . . I would no doubt be having a home birth.

Thank you all for sharing your pain and frustration. I think I understand a little bit more of how medicalized birth CAN be forced upon you.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *polihaupt*
IMO If it was so easy to just "say no" when the hospital personel tried push, scare or bully a woman into doing something she does not want or had not planned to, then there would be no use for Doulas.

Sure there would! That's only part of what a doula does.
Doulas attend homebirths too, not just hospital. Women need support in other ways besides fending off unwanted interventions!


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

I too, had the experience of not being able to say "No!". I planned a homebirth, and had a birthplan written up in the case of being transfered. Well, since I was still using my insurance and ob for testing and such to save some $, I was there the day before my due date, and they tested my urine. Said it was +3 and therefore I had pre-eclampsia. No elevated bp, just the urine. When I was having a TON of bloody show. Blood=protein.

I was induced (well I was in early labor, dialated to 3 prior to this), given mag sulfate, put on continuious internal montioring, iv, cath, high doses of pitocin (because mag sulfate stops labor) the works. When I talked to the doctor and asked if we could do anything differently, they said no. They spoke about the risk of death to me and baby. I had to call my Dh to come, and he was so freaked out he was crying and had to have his mom drive him because he *honestly* thought I was going to DIE. You do NOT argue with doctors when you think, honest to GOD, that you are going to DIE. That your baby is going to DIE. You don't sit there and go through all the information you have researched and remember facts and figures when you think your life is at a serious risk. Hell I didn't even *think* about the bloody show = protein in the urine catch because I was bombared with "death death death". And I was educated.

I even have on video after Orion was born the nurse *admitting* that I did NOT have pre-eclampsia. So I was played as a fool and THEY KNEW IT. If they *really* thought I had pre-eclampsia I could understand all the measures they took. I mean pre-eclampsia IS a big deal. And IS life threatening. But the BS'ed me just to induce me.









I tried SO hard to stick up for myself, and I'm SO easily walked on by medical professionals. I refused an induction at THIRTY FIVE *weeks* because of my fundal height being big (uh, I'm a plus sized woman, DUH! and the measurements didn't jump from like 34 to 40 or something, it was consistant) and the doctor was going on and ON about "he's so big already, he's *already* 8 pounds, going to be HUGE if you go to term, blah blah blah". He was 7 pounds 2 ounces born ON his due date. He would have been a bitty little preemie for NO reason if I hadn't said no.

Along the same lines, AFTER his birth I was asked by no less than 5 people about circumsizing him. Even though the birth plan said no. Even though I wrote refused on the paperwork. It even got to the point where the scheduling person came in to set up a time for the doctor to come do it, and I said NO. Then the next day the person who takes the babies to do the circ came in to take him in, even with my multiple NO's! I was flabbergasted! If he had been in the bassinet, and I asleep, they would have JUST TOOK HIM. With MULTPLE refusals! You shouldn't have to FIGHT to keep your son intact!


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Full Heart*
Now I am a very strong generally. My fil calls me a snot nosed little brat lol. Which is why I have hbs. I am not one to sit by and be the good patient. My hospital birth I couldn't be strong anymore and there was no one to advocate for me. It does happen. Now most women I know who have this happen just don't know their options or rights. But me I did, and I still couldn't excercise them.

michelle

This is exactly what happened to me at my last birth when they wanted to give me antibiotics because I had refused to be tested for GBS while pregnant. My husband was there, but he didn't stand up for me. I wasn't in any condition at the time to fight them off. I tried, but my back up wasn't there for me. I had a hell of a time at the hospital because I refused everything for the baby. They even had the head of maternity come in and talk to me, lied to me, to get me to do what they wanted, but I refused.

It's not very easy to advocate for yourself during childbirth.


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## sarajane (Oct 20, 2004)

So much for a woman having a right to do what she wants with her own body.









Hospitals are more like prisons. To have to fight to do what you want with your own child.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CalgonMoment*
I hope this doesn't get me flamed. Please understand this is genuine confusion. I keep reading in hospital birth stories how "they" didn't "let" you do something, or how you were "made" to do something else. I have had three hospital births and they were all pretty good. I am not understanding how a hospital can make you stay in bed or make you have pitocin, or make you deliver in lithotomy position.

I can understand how you might have AROM or episiotomy without consent, but I am trying to figure out how I can politely inform my caregivers that I would consider that assault.

I don't think of myself as a major rebel, and I am fairly coherent in labor. But when my nurse didn't want to give me anything to eat or drink, I insisted that I knew the risks and was willing to assume them. I agreed to a monitor strip as a baseline, but after that told her she could monitor me by hand or forget it, because I was not getting back in that bed. And I told them that I was not going to put my feet in stirrups for birth, end of discussion.

Maybe it is just in hindsight that women feel like they were forced to do something and use those terms, but I am really wondering if women are being physically forced to labor or deliver certain ways? Please tell me your stories. I am at a different hospital this time and would like to know if this may be something I need to be prepared for.

WOO HOOOOO, someone finally said it here in this forum. Something I have wanted to say so many times before. I live in Lower Alabama where things at times are backwards and the csection rate is extremely high -- there is one hospital here that tends to be "Forgetful" or not mindful of parents wishes after the children are born, Ligmom here had her son actually circumcised without her consent and my daughter had proceedures done to her without our consent at the same hospital, but the other hospitals I have attended, I've not had this problem.
In fact, my last two OBs have been pretty laid back and given me everything I wanted in regards to how I wanted my csections handled and even my pregnancy. If I didnt want certain proceedures, testing, etc done -- I said so. I know other women who have had no problem asserting theirselves at this same hospital and getting what they want -- and I know several natural birthers who have done it and they didn't meet much if any resistance in doing so. Maybe its how you approach things. I am lucky to have a sister in the medical field and no my way around medical jargon and educated myself about things. I kind of go in, present my case and ask for what I want. I've been a labor coach several times, and only once did I have a friend get talked to into an epidural (and the OB used emotional blackmail to get her to do it)


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## mandib50 (Oct 26, 2004)

i would add that during labor a woman is in a different place emotionally and although we do say no and want to keep saying no, it wears us down to do so and keep doing so. in any other situation, we would likely be able to stand firm.

my first was a hospital birth that ended up in a c-sec. i really was given no choice about the interventions, no one informed me of the side effects or risks of certain procedures, it was just, we're going to do this now. and once that ball of intervention starts, it's pretty difficult to turn back and say no. i remember the nurse kept asking do you want drugs now, everytime she came into the room! well, by the end i agreed because i didn't know what to do or try and instead of her offering the emotional support i really would have done fine with, it was do you want the drugs now.

and then, well, flat on my back with everyone telling me to push and oh the baby's not coming and we better get the OB and then how do you say no to forceps? because i knew at that point it was all heading downhill pretty quickly to a c-sec.

i just think it's a medical profession that uses as the other posters said tactics to scare us into things, and just once one intervention starts, that necessitates another that we can't refuse.

absolutely a doula is critical for a hospital birth in my mind. me, i stayed home for the next 3!








mandi


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## watermamma (Dec 29, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Crystal_clear*
This was just recently posted on the ICAN list. From a medical She was placed on a monitor, received an IV, and was started on Pitocin.

Four hours later, I delivered her healthy baby boy vaginally.

Medical Economics - Obstetrics-Gynecology - October 2000,
p. 80.


Does this OB really think _SHE_ delivered the baby from her very _own_ vagina!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????????? ??????







Certainly sounds like it....

On to the OP, my first was born in the hospital, and though I feel I was pretty lucky (got out of there w/out a c-section), I was railroaded into crap I did not want. It was an experience in hightened fear...fear and more fear. I was sourounded by fear from the Dr.'s to the nurses. It's allways about when are things going to go wrong... birth is _so_ dangerous







. Good for you if you are so strong as to stand up to every little thing they throw at you, but some of us I guess just aren't that strong. It's hard to fight when giving birth


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

If someone told me my baby was going to die if I didn't do whatever, I'd do what they wanted. It's not the responsibility of the patient to know when her doctor is lying. Doctors just should not lie.


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## earthmama007 (Dec 29, 2001)

That is the thing, we ARE strong but unfortunatly where you choose to give birth has a huge impact on your choices. What I mean is that once you go to a hospital for care you are already subjected to much more than a HB. I DO NOT think HB is the right choice for every woman. My point is that so many times we think we can work the system by writing a birth plan but that just doesn't always work.


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mandib50*
absolutely a doula is critical for a hospital birth in my mind. me, i stayed home for the next 3!








mandi


I agree, but even they can't stop everything. I asked for no episiotomy with my 3rd child, I had a doula, she saw the doctor going to do it, didn't say anything to me or the doctor, and it was done (A huge one mind you.).....without my permission. I was so







.


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

I had a doula as well, and while she was great about really connecting with me prior to getting an epidural (I COULD have done it without the epidural, pitocin and mag sulfate and all if I wasn't stuck in that :curse bed!), as well as practically yelling "All right! Skin to skin, coming right up!!" when Orion was born into the very bewildered nurse's hands, and lifted my gown and guided the nurse to give me my baby. But what was she going to do when the doctors LIED to me about having pre-eclampsia? I mean in a normal you-really-do-HAVE-pre-eclampsia situation that is totally one of those situations that you do NEED the hospital and the medications. She wasn't going to go to war over things we both thought of as neccisary to save my and Orion's life.


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## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

After I refused to vax DS, the nurses and Drs came to my room saying that I had tested positive for Hepatites and that if I did not vax my kid he would definetely get it. I of course later found out that was not true


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## earthmama007 (Dec 29, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *polihaupt*
After I refused to vax DS, the nurses and Drs came to my room saying that I had tested positive for Hepatites and that if I did not vax my kid he would definetely get it. I of course later found out that was not true










What the H***??? What did you say?


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## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

I only found out it was not true weeks later. By then I had already been scared into having DS vaxed for Hepatites


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## mezzaluna (Jun 8, 2004)

although my hospital birth experience went rather well, i had a few moments that helped me understand how truly hard it is to say no...

during labor everything went according to my birth plan - had a very respectful nurse, ob only came in at the very end so she didn't have time to screw up labor. ds was born quickly and healthy, and we didn't have to use pain meds or augmentation and neither was offered to me. i felt well prepared for l&d, had taken a bradley class and our doula was there with us. it's what happened next that i wasn't prepared for...

the first bit after birth was pretty idyllic - i felt total relief from the contractions, and i had my squirmy guy on my tummy, and he latched on... bliss, etc., etc. the doula took pictures and then left...

then came time to stitch me up. first of all, holy cr*p that hurt - it didn't feel like the local did anything. i started screaming in pain with every stitch and the OB got a little miffed at me. then i didn't stop bleeding, so the OB started mashing my uterus and reaching inside me to pull out blood clots. still bleeding, so she says your uterus isn't clamping down, i'm going to start pitocin. not what i envisioned, but of course i have no basis to judge how necessary it is, and i just want things to be over and done with. pitocin brings back contractions (thought i was done!! grr). well, that doesn't stop the bleeding, so she says "i'm going to give you misopristol suppositories" and next thing you know they're going in. at this point i'm lying on the bed, weak from blood and fluid loss, in pain, tired from having been in labor all night, and still bleeding heavily.... so the OB decides she may need to do a D&C... and "since you didn't have the epidural i'm afraid we have to put you under general" - so i'm put to sleep and wheeled into the OR. turns out she missed some internal tearing, and the bleeding wasn't actually from the uterus. so no D&C necessary, and i narrowly avoided needing a transfusion.

i still have no idea whether she did everything in the best way possible (though i distrust her for other reasons) so i had no way of knowing whether i should have said no to her at any step in that process. mentally and physically i had no stamina left... my doula was gone, and i had no real training in post-partum complications. so i had to trust the OB's judgement.

i think my l&d went well because of a combination of education and luck, and my post-partum issues were hard because of a lack of education and lack of luck... and anyone can run short on luck... or not be educated about the ins and outs of every potential complication and not have the time/energy/support to hash things out in the moment (like the fake pre-e story of a PP)


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mezzaluna*
the first bit after birth was pretty idyllic - i felt total relief from the contractions, and i had my squirmy guy on my tummy, and he latched on... bliss, etc., etc. the doula took pictures and then left...

)

Your doula LEFT before you were stitched up and finished with everything??!!!!! That is absolutely inexcusable!!!!!!!!
As a doula myself, I'm ticked at that...a story like that makes us look bad.
She should have stayed with you until you were totally settled.


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## mandib50 (Oct 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AnnMarie*
I agree, but even they can't stop everything. I asked for no episiotomy with my 3rd child, I had a doula, she saw the doctor going to do it, didn't say anything to me or the doctor, and it was done (A huge one mind you.).....without my permission. I was so







.

you are right, they can't stop everything and some of them i know don't even advocate for their client. which is why i personally chose a homebirth, but i think the advantage doula's offer is that they can provide the emotional and physical support women do need during labor in hopes to avoid intervention. i'm sorry your doula did not seem to help you in the way you needed.

however, i think the big issue is why has intervention become so commonplace and why do we accept it so easily? sigh. doula's and midwives can't change that, only the consumer, and there are certainly no easy answers.

mandi


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

According to the doula class I just took, doulas are not supposed to advocate for the woman, but rather, through education and support empower the woman to advocate for herself. According to my instructor, this included seeing an OB reaching for the episiotomy scissors. A doula's response to that is NOTHING.










Needless to say, that didn't fly too well with my MW class.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

According to my instructor said:


> It is not the doula's place to speak for the mother, and yes, a doula's job is to empower the mother to speak for herself absolutely true. That does NOT mean do nothing if you see Dr. reaching for the scissors! What I have done (successfully many times) is say LOUDLY..."Jane, it looks like Dr. Jerkhead is getting ready to do an episiotomy, is that OK with you?"
> At that point, the Dr really has no choice but to STOP and wait for an answer.
> It works like a charm. I have only had ONE client ever recieve an episotomy in 7 years, and only because she said "yes".
> 
> As for the other post I had about the doula leaving..I wasn't suggesting that the doula could have stopped a procedure necessarily, but a mom needs support through the entire process, including stitches and any post birth events. It's just plain wrong to leave.


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## ramlita (Mar 26, 2002)

Our 'fight or flight' response can have a huge effect on labor-
it's supposed to.

A mammal in labor in the wild, when threatened or frightened, will find labor stops so that she can run, fight, or hide, and only when she feels safe and hidden will she birth her baby.

We are not made to fight and birth at the same time.
We should not have to do both at once.

Ina May Gaskin and Michel Odent have addressed this much more eloquently.

Nothin but homebirth with a patient, hands-off midwife for me, thanks!


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## sarajane (Oct 20, 2004)

Quote:

We are not made to fight and birth at the same time.
We should not have to do both at once.
I totally agree. I like your comparison to the wild animals too. I read one of the Bradley books and he compared birthing women to birthing animals alot. How they go in a dark place away from everyone. They get as secluded as possible so they don't have any interruptions.


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## mezzaluna (Jun 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmb123*
Your doula LEFT before you were stitched up and finished with everything??!!!!! That is absolutely inexcusable!!!!!!!!
As a doula myself, I'm ticked at that...a story like that makes us look bad.
She should have stayed with you until you were totally settled.

at the time i think everything seemed fine - the baby was nursing, i'd birthed the placenta, and i had what looked like just minor tearing. she had told us in advance she likes to leave within an hour after birth so the new family can bond alone. when she left that's what we were heading for. it made sense at the time that she was leaving, but i wish now she had stayed. the nurse gave me good emotional support at least - she held me hand and cried with me when they told me i would have to go into surgery









we had a follow-up meeting with the doula, and she was shocked to hear what happened and apologetic about leaving... perhaps in the future she will hang out longer, but i really don't blame her for planning to bow out after an apparently happy healthy delivery.


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## mandalamama (Sep 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CalgonMoment*
I hope this doesn't get me flamed. Please understand this is genuine confusion. I keep reading in hospital birth stories how "they" didn't "let" you do something, or how you were "made" to do something else. I have had three hospital births and they were all pretty good. I am not understanding how a hospital can make you stay in bed or make you have pitocin, or make you deliver in lithotomy position.

i understand you, i was genuinely confused by that wording in mainstream birth stories also! i was like, how can they "let" or "not let" you do something? it's your body! during the last trimester i had preeclampsia concerns, plus gestational diabetes, and i started hearing all the scare tactics from all the medical staff i met with. i just held fast to my beliefs, and i also had two doulas with me ... when the time came, not one person tried to push me into anything. the only problem that arose was that they did the AROM differently than i had requested (after 26 hours labor and baby at -3 station) by putting in a scalp monitor, i ripped the doctor a new one between contractions for doing that, so did my husband. other than that, they respected all of my wishes. but i know that was only because i came in fully educated, and supported by the doulas. i have a strong feeling that if i hadn't had their support, things would have gone much differently.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
WOO HOOOOO, someone finally said it here in this forum. Something I have wanted to say so many times before. I live in Lower Alabama where things at times are backwards and the csection rate is extremely high -- there is one hospital here that tends to be "Forgetful" or not mindful of parents wishes after the children are born, Ligmom here had her son actually circumcised without her consent and my daughter had proceedures done to her without our consent at the same hospital, but the other hospitals I have attended, I've not had this problem.
In fact, my last two OBs have been pretty laid back and given me everything I wanted in regards to how I wanted my csections handled and even my pregnancy. If I didnt want certain proceedures, testing, etc done -- I said so. I know other women who have had no problem asserting theirselves at this same hospital and getting what they want -- and I know several natural birthers who have done it and they didn't meet much if any resistance in doing so. Maybe its how you approach things. I am lucky to have a sister in the medical field and no my way around medical jargon and educated myself about things. I kind of go in, present my case and ask for what I want. I've been a labor coach several times, and only once did I have a friend get talked to into an epidural (and the OB used emotional blackmail to get her to do it)























Did you even READ all the posts here about how educated, empowered, intelligent women had things done to us against our will during labor? It is NOT just about "how you approach things" or "how educated you are" or "whether you know medical jargon."

It is also, I daresay, very different advocating for yourself for a planned c-section than during labor, when your head goes to a different place and you are simply not in a rational frame of mind to resist your caregiver's "suggestions." Especially as many have stated here when those "suggestions" are "do it our way or your baby will die."

It is just simply wrong to pat yourself or anyone else on the back for getting the birth they wanted and assuming it happened just because they were strong and asked for what they wanted. That isn't always enough, as you would know if you read the stories posted in this thread or elsewhere.


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## orangebird (Jun 30, 2002)

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnTheFence
WOO HOOOOO, someone finally said it here in this forum. Something I have wanted to say so many times before.
Yes Quirky, I'm wondering about this too. Just because a few women have made it through a hospital birth unscathed doesn't mean for many of us it isn't a long, arduous task. I went into my birth very educated and was still bullied into almost everything against my wishes.

Quote:

It is also, I daresay, very different advocating for yourself for a planned c-section than during labor, when your head goes to a different place and you are simply not in a rational frame of mind to resist your caregiver's "suggestions." Especially as many have stated here when those "suggestions" are "do it our way or your baby will die."
I totally agree. You have never even experienced what many of us are talking about to even be able to comment. It is much different advocating for yourself from your normal frame of mind than when you are in full blown labor.

I have worked in this area for 6 years now, I am a RN and have seen many births and been the nurse at many of them. I see what goes on fdrom the other side now and I still think they bully women around. Even knowing all I know I don't know that I would be able to fight in full on labor. The point is you shouldn't HAVE to fight during labor. The fact that doctors and nurses will lie and coerce women during this sensitive time is so wrong. No matter how educated or aware of medical jargon a woman is she shouldn't be put in this position. I have coworkers still getting c-sections because their baby's "didn't fit" through their pelvises, after pushing flat on their back with an epidural- DUH! My coworkers are all registered nurses. Not uneducated, not ignorrant of medical jargon. I know people induced for "large" babies going on to have 7 pound babies, by c-section of course because the induction failed. These were women who while pregnant talked about wanting "natural" childbirths. It is bad enough we are lied to, but we are being lied to when we are in labor, when our mind isn't the normal rational mind but the animal mind of labor. Once they instill fear in our minds about the wellbeing of our dear children is it surprising we are easily coerced?

I'm sorry Kim, your arrogance regarding this issue just came off really offensive to me. It isn't so simple. It is not just a matter of saying "yes" or "no". The pressure and coersion and lies take on a very complex and sneaky appearance. The staff starts planting little seeds early on and by the time you are completely out of your mind and think your baby is about to die you will agree to things you never imagined you would.

You have no idea, I don't know why I'm even trying to explain it. How hard is it to get what you want when you are gong in for a planned c-section? I mean really.


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## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mara*
You have no idea, I don't know why I'm even trying to explain it. How hard is it to get what you want when you are gong in for a planned c-section? I mean really.

That's exactly what I was thinking...


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

I agree! You just have to draw the line and it's YOUR body so say no. They can't do it if you say no, but if you don't know they are doing it then sometimes they just do it anyway (like breaking water). My doula helped me with a birth plan that covered all bases and I had to remind them several times of my wishes as we got to the stages of labor where things might have been done to me had I not spoken up.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Ummm, Darshani, you had epidurals with both, right? Were they trying to do things to you before or after the epidurals?

If you had your epidural in when they were trying to do things, then your head was not in labor land.

Really, if you (generally) haven't been there, where your animal brain takes over and your rational mind is out to lunch during labor, then you (generally) don't know what this discussion is all about.

ETA: and the result is, you (again generally) are blaming the victims for not having the power and the ability to say no. Think of it as date rape. Not a perfect analogy, but telling the woman that if she had not been dressed like a whore, if she hadn't gotten drunk, if she had *just said no*....not very helpful.

Women do not always have the power, or the wherewithal, to exert their will in labor. If you did, bully for you. But don't blame the rest of us for being victimized by medical "professionals" or think that we're weak-willed. Believe me, I for one am extremely well-educated, in general and about birth, and am an extremely tough litigator in real life. There is NOTHING weak about me - except in labor when my animal brain takes over. That is not a personal weakness, but a biological fact that my "caretaker" took advantage of.


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Again, as has been stated over and over (on this thread and many others) its NOT a case of "just say no". They LIE to you. They tell you that your, or your child's life is at risk.

Can any of the "just say no" mamas PLEASE tell me what you would have done in my case? The doctor saying you have pre-eclampsia (and you are only seeing a DOCTOR on top of your midwives because they thought the NST's were a "good idea"), you have to be induced now, you KNOW pre-eclampsia is a REAL dangerous thing, you try to stall to get a chance to get your bearings, ask to go home to pack so you can look up a few things on the net and call your midwives, and the doctor is freaking out on you, "I'm not responsible if you leave, you could start having eclamptic seziures" ect, ect ect. you call your midwives who basically tell you "yeah, sorry, get induced, see ya later" EVEN THOUGH THEY KNOW YOU'VE HAD BLOODY SHOW ie protein that ended up in your urine!

*What* would you have done? Come on, make a rush decision, you could die here if you make the wrong decision! It could get worse this very instant! Make the wrong decision and go into seizures, cut off oxygen to your baby, yourself, you could die! No time to go home and spend a day or three on research. Just remember everything you've ever read about pre-eclampsia while thinking "MY BABY IS GOING TO DIE!!!!!!!!" and then call your midwives, because you TRUST them and they would never EVER just leave you to birth in a hospital if it REALLY TRULY wasn't neccisary, now would they?







: Don't remember in the heat of all of this the fact that you've been having bloody show that could affect the protein levels of your test strip because you're freaked out, think you or your unborn child may die, your Dh is calling you in TEARS begging you not to DIE and he's NEVER cried in his life. Come on come on, can you rush a little? Can you churn your brain faster, faster, faster?? 2 lives are on the line! Quick quick quick now! (can you see how I was feeling? the pacing of the whole thing?)

Because really, the mama who can think more levelheaded that I, that could go beyond calling their midwives whom they really truly trusted in that situation is really amazing. Really. Its WONDERFUL you had the births you wanted and you were able to say no and be heard and that's awesome and validating and you must feel very powerful and in control because of your experiences because of it. I don't want to take ANY of that away from you, but its not cut and dry.


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## CalgonMoment (Dec 4, 2004)

OK, I realize that some of these angry comments are not addressed to me, but as the op, I feel somewhat taken aback at the anger generated here. I must admit that I did often think that people "let" hospitals do things to them because of lack of education or backbone. That is one of the reasons that I asked. I genuinely was trying to understand how things can escalate to the point of major interventions in women who are prepared, educated and know what they want. I realize that I have been extremely fortunate in getting the hospital births that I want.

I have had doctors and midwives who respected my wishes and honored them. And have only had annoying, not scary nurses. I am very hopeful that I will get that one more time with my last birth. I have done what I can to ensure that, and have had my eyes opened to ways that medical "professionals" can abuse their power.

My deepest sympathies to those of you who have been abused by the system. I am sorry that this thread has stirred that pain and anger up again. thank you for sharing from your perspective.


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky*
Ummm, Darshani, you had epidurals with both, right? Were they trying to do things to you before or after the epidurals?

If you had your epidural in when they were trying to do things, then your head was not in labor land.


I do have to say though, that even with an epidural I did have a very out of my mind, animal 'leave me alone in a dark dark cave' feeling... maybe part of the "out of my mind" was the meds too, and maybe part of the still feeling animalistic was 1)waiting as long as I feasibly could before I got the epi (I really didn't want one, but couldn't deal strapped down to the freaking bed) and 2) the







thing didn't really WORK, I'd be numb on one half and in horrible pain on the other and so all it did was make it much HARDER to move.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

My anger is not directed at the OP. I am still very angry at my medwife, my doula who never showed and never called her backup, and my dh who wasn't as educated as he needed to be. OTOH, although it wasn't as serious as StarMama's case, how the hell was he supposed to stand up to the midwife - who had our DETAILED birth plan and whom I chose (as part of a practice) to get a NATURAL birth when SHE's the one telling us "We have to do this, that, and the other now?"

It is a sore subject for me, obviously. I know I would create sore feelings if I started a thread about "Just say NO to c-sections!" or "Just say NO to formula feeding!" or "Just say NO to cribs!" or "Just say NO to letting your baby cry!"

There's the ideal, and then there's real life and biological reality. For some of us, it's easy to give birth vaginally no matter what the circumstances. For some of us, it's easy to breastfeed. For some of us, it's easy to co-sleep. For some of us, we don't have high-needs babies and never need to walk away while they're crying for our own sanity.

For some of us, it's easy to point a finger and say "Well, you should have tried harder" when we haven't been in that situation that led to the failure of (fill in the blank AP/NFL ideal).


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Oh CalgonMoment, my anger was not directed to you at all. You asked, not understanding, and really it DOES seem simple, doesn't it? Just refuse. Say No. It SOUNDS simple and easy... Before I had my experience and was still attending double appts with kaiser and my midwives that's what I thought too! That *no problem* **I** wasn't going to be pushed into a hospital birth, **I** was educated. **I** knew what I was doing. **I** would just say No! Its not the easy when the decision weighing on you is "do this or your child or yourself could really truly die"

But its very hurtful to have other posters read our tales and then still say "oh you could have just said no, since *I* had a good experience and got my way". Its just not like that. I'm not a weak willed push over who just does as she is told. It is NOT my FAULT that my birth experience was horrible, and that I will carry that memory for the rest of my life. (yes, I made the mistake of not being all knowing and figuring out the bloody show thing, but really the doctor or my midwives should have picked up on that, they both were informed of the bloody show prior) I was just trying to do what was right for my child, to ensure his safety above my desire for a homebirth.

And to have the experience I wished for ripped away, and then be told I "just wasn't strong enough" or that "its just your body, say no" is really hurtful to hear.

Yes I could have said no. But when I thought saying NO could risk my child, or my life, that wasn't a choice I was going to make. And I don't think anyone is honestly here saying "Well if you didn't want the experiences you had, you should have just said no, EVEN IF IT MEANT THE DEATH OF YOUR CHILD OR SELF". Because ah, if I had REALLY had pre-eclampsia, I would still mourn the loss of my homebirth, but I would be glad that the hospital was there to get my child and myself through safely.


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## JanetF (Oct 31, 2004)

I think this is a really interesting expose on how power relations really work in hospitals. I transferred from a HB to hospital for a c-sec and couldn't get it! Yes, there is a woman in the world who's had to fight to get cut open







Me! For me it was a lot more than saying no could have helped. I couldn't get what I needed. They only wanted to give me pethidine and I wouldn't have it. I waited 4 1/2 hours without adequate pain relief (just gas) while strapped down with the monitors ("We only want to monitor you for 20 minutes" crap!) and having had my membranes ruptured. I withdrew my consent in the middle of a VE when I screamed with pain and told the OB to get out of my body but she ignored me. In the worst of my PTSD I dreamt about kicking her in the face and seeing her head bust open on the floor with blood everywhere. Very healing! I kept asking myself what could I have done? I was in agony, she stuck her hand in me so hard I got grazed (no honeymoon fresh vagina for me even with a c-sec). For me it was more a case of how do I get what I need, not how do I say no to things. When I did say no (to monitoring, to the VE, to Conor being taken away, to drugs) it was ignored anyway. And I couldn't force them to cut me open. It took 6 hours from when I got there until I was in theatre. Then another 2 hours before I held my son as part of my punishment (for being a HB mama) was to be denied him in recovery even though it's hospital policy and I had my own MW there to help.
I just wish other women would listen and not repeat the experiences that so many of us have had. If no one accepted crap from hospitals from day 1 of their pregnancy maybe they wouldn't feel such a free hand with labouring women? It's so sad to me that so many women think that is what birth is when actually that is what artificial, rule-bound, barbaric hospital rules are, not birth.
Healing vibes to all!
J


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## sm3247 (May 9, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StarMama*
I do have to say though, that even with an epidural I did have a very out of my mind, animal 'leave me alone in a dark dark cave' feeling... maybe part of the "out of my mind" was the meds too, and maybe part of the still feeling animalistic was 1)waiting as long as I feasibly could before I got the epi (I really didn't want one, but couldn't deal strapped down to the freaking bed) and 2) the







thing didn't really WORK, I'd be numb on one half and in horrible pain on the other and so all it did was make it much HARDER to move.









I don't understand why anyone would think that women who had epidurals don't know what labor is about.

I had the same experience with my epidural. My labor was Pitocin induced and was very painful. I was in labor for a very long time and while the epidural (I eventually gave into) brought some relief, labor was still incredibly painful. I still had to deal with extremely painful contractions, had a husband who was so concerned about me that he was willing to listen to anything the nurses/doctor had to say, not to mention being exhausted from being in labor for 22 hours and not having ANYTHING to eat for the entire time. I may not have had the endorphin haze going, but if you think that having an epidural puts you in complete control of the situation, you're kidding yourself.


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## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sm3247*
I don't understand why anyone would think that women who had epidurals don't know what labor is about.

I had the same experience with my epidural. My labor was Pitocin induced and was very painful. I was in labor for a very long time and while the epidural (I eventually gave into) brought some relief, labor was still incredibly painful. I still had to deal with extremely painful contractions, had a husband who was so concerned about me that he was willing to listen to anything the nurses/doctor had to say, not to mention being exhausted from being in labor for 22 hours and not having ANYTHING to eat for the entire time. I may not have had the endorphin haze going, but if you think that having an epidural puts you in complete control of the situation, you're kidding yourself.

Well, I guess she was talking about deliveries when the Epi completely takes the pain away. I had an Epi when I had my last baby (looong story) and DID NOT FEEL ANYTHING - no pain whatsoever during labor. Of my friends who had EPI none of them felt any pain either. So, yes I was 100% present and in control during that labor, which was just impossible for me during my natural labors.
FYI, despite not feeling any pain (AT THE TIME OF LABOR), I would not have an EPI again again for the reasons I mentioned earlier.


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

I was just going to mention that in general I think most people hear epidural and think of your situation polihaupt, complete pain relief. So they don't think of our situation shannon (again I'm speak in general, and stating an assumption, I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth).

I swear I just felt like a caged animal being poked and jabbed by evil people 90% of my birth. I so wanted to just crawl away from them, curl up in a ball in a dark dark corner ALONE. But that was sort of impossible, having 2 internal monitors, a cath, and an iv, as well as having little control of my legs since parts were numb. So I endured for what I thought was the best for my child. What would keep us alive and healthy. If for a moment I had thought "hey THIS is UN-NECCISARY" I would have tried to say something. But it probably would have been about the same reaction from the nurses and doctors as when I asked a nurse to please move her hand a fre milimeters off of a scar on my belly button (from an old piercing) when she was massaging my uterus. For some reason this scar hurt a LOT with her aggressively massaging me down, so I asked her to move just a tiny bit, and she told me "No, I can't, I have to do this right here." Well I really thought she could honestly still stay on top of my uterus massaging it quite effectivly moving just a itty bit (even if that wasn't true, it was what I BELIEVED) and even when I specifically asked she just said No. And went back to it. Minor point there, but even when I asked for that I was ignored, and I was so out of it I couldn't make my tounge move to even say anything else. No way could I have fought off anything else verbally. Hell, they gave me cytotec after the birth because of blood loss concerns, even when I specifically said on my birth plan **NO cytotec for ANY reason** and had multiple nurses and the doctor agree they would NOT use it for ANY reason (I've heard now that risks of cytotec after birthing isn't as horrible, and may have been the right choice for the moment, but they never even told me "ok, but we might have to use it in this situation, is that ok?" or in the midst of things "we need to use this, even though you said no before, this is a different situation, the likely hood of uterine rupture after birth isn't as extreme, blah blah blah, is that ok?") and I wasn't even aware of it. How could I have verbally refused it when I was totally unaware?? And it wasn't like the doctor was being sneaky. I have my birth video. She asks the nurse for it. She has to get into the packaging for it. Regardless of the right or wrong of it, even if the use of that cytotec could have been the difference between "too much blood loss" and hemmoraging and a d&c or worse, it is MY body, and I should have had to give consent, ESPECIALLY with what my birth plan stated.


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## liawbh (Sep 29, 2004)

Another thing to be considered, is it seems that the OB asks for consent at the worst times. With DS, my OB (whom I had talked to several times about wanting natural birth) offered meds when I was in the middle of a contraction (fortunately the nurse interrupted him to remind him not to ask me).

THen, right after being told to not push (which was extremely difficult and painful), the first contraction I could push, he say "I'm giong to do an episiotomy now, OK?" At that point all I could think was "shsut up and let me push" So I just nodded.

Did I educate myself first? Did I learn the facts of labor? Did I have support? YES, but in the thick of things, after an whirlwind fast labor, with the worry of meconium staining, and in the middle of contractions, none of that helped me at all. In fact, I don't think my support people even realized he was doing the epis, it happened so fast.


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## JanetF (Oct 31, 2004)

"Another thing to be considered, is it seems that the OB asks for consent at the worst times."

I think this is an unofficial policy because they know it usually gets them the answer they want.

I had 2 stand out experiences with that.
First OB that saw me had her hand inside me and said, "I'll just attach a foetal scalp monitor." Fortunately for me, I was still conscious and so were all my support people. We all practically shouted NO!!! She'd left out a few steps, hadn't she?!
What about the fact that she would have to rupture my membranes to get it in there? How about the side effects of that? How about the impact of the (disgusting!) fsm on my tender baby's head??? I'm sure you know the rest.
Second OB announced that she was going to rupture my membranes after causing me the pain that made me scream and tell her to get out of my body. She had also blocked my MW from my sight. I was lying in terrible pain, on my back, reeling with my head spinning from her assault on me, and she is asking me something??? In my complaint letter I wrote a script for the hospital about asking for consent LOL. Made me feel better anyway.
Interestingly, when I took my complaint about the hospital to an outside authority (what we call the Health Services Commissioner) the hospital reps were all falling over themselves to say, "Oh so sorry, this has never happened before" in as many ways as they could. Ludicrous! I know so many other refugees from that hospital now! They also told me this story that the main OB had now moved on and that they were aware when she worked in the hospital that she didn't deal well with women she was seeing. They had *tried* over and over to *work with her* on it but they couldn't seem to kick her into shape. So if this is so terrible to them, why did they keep sicking her onto their "patients"???
Ahhh large anti-woman bureaucracies!


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## jraohc (Nov 5, 2004)

What an interesting thread. Before labor I have to admit I thought "how easy; just say "no"; I'm educated, I know what to say "no" to; I have midwives, so it won't even be necessary to say "no"". Now that I've been through labor I just have to say it's not so easy and why didn't anyone tell me before? Well, probably because I wouldn't have listened, after all I was "educated" and knew exactly what I wanted and didn't want.

I appreciate the two analogies - to wild animals and to date rape.

It's also very interesting to hear that other's had experiences that were similar in ways to mine. Although it stinks that others had bad experiences, it is nice to hear that I'm not alone.


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

I know it's all been said before, and even in this thread, but seems some people aren't listening, or don't want to know the answers to these questions raised by the OP.

Quote:

Before labor I have to admit I thought "how easy; just say "no"; I'm educated, I know what to say "no" to; I have midwives, so it won't even be necessary to say "no"". Now that I've been through labor I just have to say it's not so easy and why didn't anyone tell me before? Well, probably because I wouldn't have listened, after all I was "educated" and knew exactly what I wanted and didn't want.
I went into my first birth thinking that all I had to do was "say no" to interventions, and I'd have one of those perfect natural births in the hospital. I read all the right books, I thought I was well educated about what to expect. But then reality hit me smack in the face and that wasn't to be.

First, my very supportive OB wasn't on call the weekend my water broke, so I was stuck with a doctor I had never met before and didn't trust. Labor is not the time to be fighting for what you want, it should be when everyone bends over backwards to make you happy and comfortable. Not only did they threaten me with the "dead baby card" saying my baby would die if I didn't do what they wanted, they threatened me with taking her away from me after she was born, if she survived, because I chose to endanger her life. *One nurse flat-out accused me of placing a higher level of importance on natural childbirth than on my own baby's health and well-being.* I was not informed, nor did I consent to many of the things/interventions that happened to me in the hospital. When doc gave me cytotec, all he told me was that it was an ulcer medication that would ripen my cervix. How can anyone give informed consent if they aren't informed? "but there isn't enough time, your baby might die if we don't do this right now" (yeah, and he might have missed that golf game later that afternoon, the one he was talking about the whole time he was cutting me open) Worse that all that, was when they started the scare tactics on DH, telling him to "talk some sense into her"







: Since I hadn't educated him at all about certain interventions and why I didn't want them, he fell for it hook line and sinker. the whole world was against me, I was scared, no, I was terrified, and they knew exactly what my worst fears were and used them against me.

The only women I know in real life who actually had natural births, either had a doula or a homebirth, or both.


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

I just wanted to give a big







to us all who've had all these bad experiences birthing


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## Crystal_clear (Jan 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jraohc*
I'm educated, I know what to say "no" to; I have midwives, so it won't even be necessary to say "no"".

*nods* That's what I thought too until I hit 42 weeks with my 1st and was thrown to the wolves. Of course, it's not completely the medwives' fault - after all, I was the one stupid enough to believe that it was really about me and my baby instead of their neat & tidy records for insurance purposes. When I was naive enough to say that I'd rather go unassisted than to transfer care at 42 weeks to someone I'd never met and have a hospital birth, 3 of them marched in like it was an intervention and proceeded to bully and molest me. I fought them all for 3 days....the lay MWs who are at least as scared of birth as any medico, the CNM who tried to push cytotec on me at least half a dozen times, and the butcher who ultimately cut me. I had finally agreed to a no-med induction with a foley cath, but once they've got you captive it's just a matter of time til they wear you down. They will use the dead baby card, the 1st-time-mother-who-doesn't-know-anything card, the CPS card, whatever will get compliance - and they will turn on the tactics hot & heavy after you've been there for 24 hours. After all, they're now losing money with you taking up space in L&D and the pressure's on to get that baby out. Every time I said no (to pitocin, to AROM, to amnioinfusion, etc) I was told repeatedly that if I would have just agreed I'd be holding my baby by now. Say that over & over to a new mom who has been getting inundated with phone calls and emails about "didn't you have that baby yet?" for over 2 weeks, who is sharing the ward with the year-end-tax-deduction-inductions and hearing new babies' cries every couple of hours, and who hasn't slept in days and they WILL win the battle in the end. I gave up when they started talking about screwing a monitor into my baby's scalp and pulling him out with forceps and let them cut me.


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## Quindin (Aug 22, 2003)

OMG - You guys have such awful sotries









I did not have a good birth experience last time, but I sure won't complain about it anymore after reading your awful experiences
















I am so afraid of "being thrown into the wolves" by my midwives if I go over term







To make matters worse, at 37 weeks they pulled a surprise on me saying I would not be able to deliver at the Birth Center if my asthma was not under control!!!!! What does that mean?? I tell them EVERY WEEK how well I am doing and all. I bet they got someone in the hospital pulling strings not to let me give birth at the BC because of insurance reasons - EVEN THOUGH I HAVE NOT HAD ANY ASTHMA IN MONTHS AND HAVE GIVEN BIRTH WITH NO PROBLEMS NATURALLY TWICE BEFORE


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## orangebird (Jun 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jraohc*
What an interesting thread. Before labor I have to admit I thought "how easy; just say "no"; I'm educated, I know what to say "no" to; I have midwives, so it won't even be necessary to say "no"". Now that I've been through labor I just have to say it's not so easy and why didn't anyone tell me before? Well, probably because I wouldn't have listened, after all I was "educated" and knew exactly what I wanted and didn't want.

I appreciate the two analogies - to wild animals and to date rape.

It's also very interesting to hear that other's had experiences that were similar in ways to mine. Although it stinks that others had bad experiences, it is nice to hear that I'm not alone.

Yes. Even knowing all I know now I still don't trust putting myself in their hands. I am petrified of risking out of my homebirth. I have never had any problems in the past and my last homebirth was perfect but that chance of risking out and ending up in the hospital scares me to death. Every time I have to see a delivery at work I get totally freaked out because it is a g d circus.

For the record, I was raped by a total stranger for my first "sexual" encounter. I am by far more traumatized by the "rape" I experienced at the hospital at the birth of my first. I suffer the memory of that birth more than I ever suffered effects of the rape.


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## Crystal_clear (Jan 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mara*
For the record, I was raped by a total stranger for my first "sexual" encounter. I am by far more traumatized by the "rape" I experienced at the hospital at the birth of my first. I suffer the memory of that birth more than I ever suffered effects of the rape.

*Nods through the tears* We're definitely not alone with that feeling either.


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Crystal_clear*

Quote:

For the record, I was raped by a total stranger for my first "sexual" encounter. I am by far more traumatized by the "rape" I experienced at the hospital at the birth of my first. I suffer the memory of that birth more than I ever suffered effects of the rape.
*Nods through the tears* We're definitely not alone with that feeling either.










at least when I was raped, nobody justified what the rapist did to me, or told me I should be happy he did it!


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## orangebird (Jun 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stafl*








at least when I was raped, nobody justified what the rapist did to me, or told me I should be happy he did it!

LOL! Exactly!


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## JanetF (Oct 31, 2004)

The rape analogy is one I use to explain it to people who say "But you got a healthy baby!" as if that's due to the lovely hospy technology. My healthy baby is due to me refusing pethidine, induction, scalp monitor and insisting that they cut out the stuck baby.
Sigh.
Now how do we get this thread into the mainstream? Women just don't believe you when you tell them because they can't believe it will happen to them. It just happened to a friend of mine in Toronto and she's so shocked. I'm just so sad for her.







I flat out warned her against trusting the doctors and their protocols and sent her loads of brilliant information but she insisted on going to a teaching hospital so she got a c-sec she didn't need after they induced her. She's read my birth story so she she had all the information (not to mention all the brilliant books and articles I sent her) but the fear of birth is so great that women will still go to hospitals. I love the essays on birthlove.








J


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## redsonya (Oct 8, 2004)

one thing you have to keep in mind is that if you "just say no" to the wrong thing, you could have the nurses call social workers on you and try to take your baby away...







It's not so simple to wrestle with authoritarian behemoths.


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## JanetF (Oct 31, 2004)

A woman in Brisbane recently refused to have a 3rd c-sec when she wanted a VBAC and the hospital called children's services on her. They actually arrived when she was in prelabour. Not pretty. She went on to have an unmedicated VBAC in another hospital. Very frightening.


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## jraohc (Nov 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JanetF*
Now how do we get this thread into the mainstream? Women just don't believe you when you tell them because they can't believe it will happen to them.

This was what I was trying to get at with my post. Before labor I just didn't understand how difficult it would be to say no. As for getting the message out to the mainstream, I think we need the mainstream to realize there are reasonable alternatives to the hospital and we need to make sure that's true. I'm planning a homebirth for next time, but I never would have considered that the first time around because "no one" has a homebirth. I just don't think it would have mattered how many times I had read how hard it is to say no during labor for me to believe that was true.


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