# What we're doing isn't working...



## JayGee (Oct 5, 2002)

DH and I have had it. Our children have become disrespectful and bratty. They expect to be catered to and refuse to help out.

Some examples:

~ DD1 frequently says things like "Mama! Bring me a water!" And if the water isn't brought to her immediately she's say, with attitude, "I TOLD YOU to bring me a water!"

~ DS and DD1 completely ignore any requests from me to clean up or put away their toys or even close their dresser drawers or put up their shoes

~ Both DDs will not eat. DD1 plays this irritating game where she asks for something, I make it for her, then she says she doesn't want it and asks for something else. Repeat...

I can trace their behavior problems to a couple of things:
1) Not enough sleep. Neither DD naps and they tend to go to bed too late and wake too early. I need to get them to bed earlier.
2) They've been watching too many DVDs







:. We were TV free all summer, but I relapsed with the cold weather by allowing them DVDs. This is entirely my fault.
3) They don't eat enough, even though I provide healthy snacks. Both DDs are VERY picky.

So what else can I do to improve their behavior? Tonight DD1 refused to eat a single bite at dinner, asked for 3 different plates, slid her chair far across the room to be away from the table, threw her chair at DH







, and bit herself hard on the arm out of anger. It's gone too far.


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## Sophienaz (Nov 5, 2008)

Oh god I really feel for you. But I think you have pretty much figured it out. There are two things at play here, one, they dont' eat enough food so they are hungry and cranky. Two, they dont' sleep. Hunger and fatigue are an evil combination. I have had this very badly from my DS from 18 months till 26 months.

You could see his ribs through his t-shirt, he was so skinny, and his eyes had dark circles underneath them, it drove me crazy but it also freaked me out.

It was non stop tantrums. I would cry myself to sleep at night.

However, the breakthrough came when someone told me to stop feeding him snacks. They said, when he's hungry, he WILL eat. This of course let to more tantrums becuase in between his ridiculous non-eating mealtimes, I withheld the snacks. It was horrible, really horrible. But it worked. At meal times, he eventually stuffed food in his mouth. Now at 34 months, he eats all the time. It was hell, but it worked.

And now that he eats properly, guess what....he sleeps better. Not great, but better.

The trick with the eating was to find something he could like. Unfortuantely he does not eat the food I eat. I found very simple things that he liked, such as rice with butter and a little salt with some pieces of freshly cooked ham. ANd I would put a mountain of butter to help him put on weight coz he was so skinny. Sometimes for meals he would just have toast with mountains of butter, followed by a yoghurt. It got to the point that I didn't care what he ate, as long as he was taking in some carbs and some basic protein from the meats and yoghurt.

I basically had to teach him how to need food and eat food and enjoy food. Its still an ongoing struggle at times, but withholding snacks really made the difference.

You just have to be as calm as possible in the transition and control yourself when the howling and bad behaviour starts. Its a nightmare, but it WILL get better.

Best of luck. XXX


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## BoringTales (Aug 1, 2006)

Well, when one method isn't working (and I'd say from your post that it isn't working), its try to try something else.

What sort of discipline are you using? What are the consequences when they talk disrespectfully, throw things, bite, don't listen, etc?


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## Shera971 (Nov 26, 2008)

It sounds like you are having a tough time!







s:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BoringTales* 
What sort of discipline are you using? What are the consequences when they talk disrespectfully, throw things, bite, don't listen, etc?

That would be my question as well. If my son asked for something to drink as you descibed I would calmly respond "I don't respond to rude demands. Can you use your manners and try again?" If he refused to pick up his toys, he would lose his priviledge to play with those.

Depending how old your children are, removing snacks could work. As well, I wouldn't offer different choices at meal time. Sort of like "this is what we are having for dinner. You don't have to eat it but that is all there is until breakfast".

Good luck!


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

My dd can be pretty demanding. She wanted pancakes instead of the toast I made. I told her I was too tired and wouldn't make pancakes but she could- if she cleaned the frying pan, etc. She whined and cried for about 30 mins and then did it! She was so proud of how clean she made the pan and making the pancakes that I shudder to think I might have denied her this if I had given in. I really need to remember this in the future. Just thought of this reading your story about all the food demands...


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## JayGee (Oct 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BoringTales* 
Well, when one method isn't working (and I'd say from your post that it isn't working), its try to try something else.

What sort of discipline are you using? What are the consequences when they talk disrespectfully, throw things, bite, don't listen, etc?

And here's where the problem comes in. I don't have good consequences. I grew up in a home where I would have gotten my mouth smacked for talking disrespectfully, and that's not an option here. DH grew up in a home where they were threatened with a switch if they misbehaved. Also not an option. It's like I'm frozen when these things happen. Basically, I'm ashamed to admit, I do nothing other than seethe.


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## almama (Mar 22, 2003)

We're kinda at our limit right now too and this is what we are trying:

The kids start the day at zero. All their needs will be met, etc., but extra things like TV, video games, have to be earned. My kids can't handle "amounts" (like you do this and you gain 10 minutes) and I HATE reward systems. I'm doing it more as "your family can help you when you help your family." So a hit is "you are heading back to zero," and a kind gesture is "you are earning it back."

We are *really* GD with natural consequences as a rule, but things have gotten out of hand here and it is too challenging for everyone. I hope we don't have to do this long, but I need to get them out of these patterns.


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## waiflywaif (Oct 17, 2005)

The TV, food, and sleep issues are one set of problems.

The disrespect, the bad manners, and the refusing to comply with simple requests are another set.

The second set is the one that requires "discipline" or "guidance." You can't "trace" their behavior directly to things like TV. You said it yourself---when they behave that way, you do nothing. That's a huge issue.

I'd start by deciding what is and isn't acceptable in your home. Just in your head. What are the rules? It can as simple as using polite voices, not throwing things, etc. Then get some books about gentle discipline and learn strategies for getting kids to cooperate with the rules.

You're all on the same "side," you and your kids. Everyone wants happy mealtimes and respectful speech. It is YOUR job to help them learn how to give it and get it.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *waiflywaif* 
The TV, food, and sleep issues are one set of problems.

The disrespect, the bad manners, and the refusing to comply with simple requests are another set.

The second set is the one that requires "discipline" or "guidance." You can't "trace" their behavior directly to things like TV. You said it yourself---when they behave that way, you do nothing. That's a huge issue.

I agree -- there are several problems here and they are going to take different approaches to solve. Sleep I think probably will depend on your ability to modify your evening routine. Lots of us can probably help brainstorm solutions if you provide more details.

Disrespect, manners and not helping probably are related. Its great that you have rejected physical discipline as the solution. Now you need to come up with alternatives though. Remember that Gentle Discipline is not the same as NO discipline. You and DH should talk about what you want and come up with a plan to get there. If you have trouble talking through these sorts of issues, I highly recommend finding a good parenting class you can take together.

There are lots of different approaches to GD here, so you might find that you get very conflicting ideas and suggestions. Sort through things and find the way that makes sense for you. Also remember that you cannot solve everything at once, so pick the one or two things that are the biggest problem and work from there.

Our household is not a consensual living environment -- I expect my children (5 and 9) to cooperate with me. Not necessarily instantly, but I do expect them to do what I ask or RESPECTFULLY explain why they cannot. I expect them to ask for things nicely.

I believe is really important is modeling what you want to see. So, if you demand water from your child or your DH, they will feel they can demand from you. Likewise, if they ask for something nicely and you ignore them, they will ignore you as well.

I set up my house so that my kids could do most things for themselves as early as possible. So they wouldn't ask for water because by the time they were 2 or 3 they could (and did) get it for themselves. But if they were to demand something, I would definitely say "That is not a polite tone of voice. Please try again." I would never, ever actually do what they asked if they approached it like that.

There are lots of consequences short of hitting a child. I am comfortable with natural consequences as the first choice, logical as the next. Not everyone here does consequences at all, but I find these approaches fit for me.

So, the natural consequence for not picking up toys when asked is that they get broken or lost. The logical consequence is that parent picks them up and they are no longer available to play with for a set amount of time.

For food, I cook one meal. Generally I take requests at the time or when I'm planning the week's meals. If the kids decide that is not what they want, they are free to get something else of similar nutritional value. I, however, do not fix anything else. They have been able to pour cereal and milk since they were 2 and make a simple sandwich since they were 3. Of course, I set up the kitchen so they could access things for themselves and taught them how to get snacks they wanted. But I do not get up once I have sat down for my meal.

So, there are some ideas for some places to start. I think I would start with sleep first, then food, then everything else. Because well rested and well fed children are naturally more cooperative. Good luck!


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## dougandsarah (Oct 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JayGee* 

So what else can I do to improve their behavior? Tonight DD1 refused to eat a single bite at dinner, asked for 3 different plates, slid her chair far across the room to be away from the table, threw her chair at DH







, and bit herself hard on the arm out of anger. It's gone too far.


what did you and your husband do when your daughter threw her chair at her dad?


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## JayGee (Oct 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dougandsarah* 
what did you and your husband do when your daughter threw her chair at her dad?

My husband really didn't have a chance to do anything. At that point I picked her up and carried her upstairs. We talked quietly on her bed for a few minutes about what she had done and she fell asleep before 7:00pm. Obviously, completely and totally over-exhausted.

Today has been MUCH better, especially considering that DD1 got 11 hours of sleep and DD2 got 13 last night







. I tried to make it very clear to the children this morning that I expected certain things from them ~ pleases and thank yous, staying with me when we're out, putting coats and shoes where they belong. Aside from DS throwing his coat in the middle of the livingroom when he got home from school, they all did really well with it.

The crazy thing is that both DH and I grew up in houses where manners were serious business. Neither of us would have dreamed of speaking to our parents the way our children frequently speak to us. And DH and I are very kind to each other, and I feel, exhibit a loving, caring and respectful relationship.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Here's what I'd try to start with:

1. Getting the sleep thing worked out. "Sleepless in America" is a good book, and it's where I'd start. When dd was having sleep issues, what I learned was that having a consistent WAKE times was as important as consistent BED times, and that sleep begets sleep. Move their bedtimes back by 15 minutes a day until they're IN BED at 8 pm or so. I know it cuts down on family time in the evening, but it's totally worth it.

2. Reducing the options at mealtimes. I am not a short order cook. (My mother said that over and over again, and I didn't get it until I was a parent.) Breakfast and lunch are more flexible, but basically they have a choice of 2-3 things for those meals. Dinner is not something they get a choice about. I certainly take their input, and mostly I cook things they eat. I fix at least one thing that I know each child will like. That one thing might just be rice, but I know they'll eat it.

In our house, we allow snacking, and in general I think it's a bad idea to restrict snacks for kids under 5. I know that when ds (age 7) comes home from school, he's really hungry. It's hard for him to eat enough at lunch.

3. No TV/DVDs after about 5 pm. My kids have a hard time falling asleep if they watch TV in the evening. Maybe it's just my kids, but I find the evening runs more smoothly if we're not watching. FWIW, my kids have the pattern of not watching TV much at all in the summer and more in the winter when it's cold and rainy and hard to play outside. I'm OK with it. If you think the DVDs are contributing to their behavior, then reducing/eliminating it would be a good idea.

I'd work on manners and helping after I got the basics of sleep and food taken care of. We have a family 'chore time' every evening after dinner where we ALL do something. the kids do much better helping when we're right in there with them.

Starting about age 3, we worked REALLY hard with our kids on phrasing things politely. "Give me water." was met with "that's not polite. Try "can you give me some water please?" After I knew they'd mastered that, I would say "I don't bring water to kids who aren't polite. Try again." Sometimes "that was rude. Try again." works too.


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## bremen (Feb 12, 2005)

a small note here:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
Here's what I'd try to start with:
Starting about age 3, we worked REALLY hard with our kids on phrasing things politely. "Give me water." was met with "that's not polite. Try "can you give me some water please?" After I knew they'd mastered that, I would say "I don't bring water to kids who aren't polite. Try again." Sometimes "that was rude. Try again." works too.


sometimes the polite options are so many words that it confuses a toddler
if they say "gimme water", offer the alternative of "water, please?"

"can you give me some water please?" may be just too many words for some tired toddlers!


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bremen* 
a small note here:

sometimes the polite options are so many words that it confuses a toddler
if they say "gimme water", offer the alternative of "water, please?"

"can you give me some water please?" may be just too many words for some tired toddlers!

True, which is why I said we started working on that at age THREE. At least for both of my kids (one who was just average in terms of verbal development, one who was ahead of the curve), they were certainly able to say "Can I have water please?" or "Can you get me water please?" by 3.

They'd already been introduced to 'please' nad 'thank you', but the 'demands' were starting to get irritating, and I needed to teach them the more polite way of doing it.

FWIW, I recommended this for the OLDER child, who's 4ish. Plenty old for that.


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## JayGee (Oct 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
True, which is why I said we started working on that at age THREE. At least for both of my kids (one who was just average in terms of verbal development, one who was ahead of the curve), they were certainly able to say "Can I have water please?" or "Can you get me water please?" by 3.

They'd already been introduced to 'please' nad 'thank you', but the 'demands' were starting to get irritating, and I needed to teach them the more polite way of doing it.

FWIW, I recommended this for the OLDER child, who's 4ish. Plenty old for that.

Luckily, language is not an issue. Both DD1 and DD2 are very well spoken. In fact, the 2.5 yo, just asked me, "Can you open this, please?"







. Things seem to be improving a bit, although it's only been a few days. Sleep seems to be a major factor.

Thanks so much for all the input.


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## waiflywaif (Oct 17, 2005)

I am glad things are better on your house. However, I still think it wouldn't be a bad idea for you to come up with a better solution to undesirable behavior than to just "quietly seethe." As well as defining for your own family (even if it's in your own head) what constitutes unwanted behavior in the first place.

We don't have written-down family "rules." But I can't tell you how much it helped me to get MYSELF clear on what my expectations are for my child. Before I did that, it felt like I would react differently at different times---sometimes mommy can deal with this, sometimes she just can't---and a lot of emotions got mixed up with the "discipline." With expectations in mind, it's very clear when behavior is okay and when it isn't, and I'm able to be calm about consequences and verbal redirection.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

OP I think that fixing bedtimes will go a long way. In my house, I don't bite on the king tut behaviour of dropping everything when summoned. : I tell them they need to come to me if they want something or want to talk. And if I'm too busy at the moment I tell them when I'll be able to do it. End of story. But it also helps to have things accessible to them so they can help themselves as well.

If they don't eat dinner (and I know it's something they like) they are welcome to stick it in the fridge until later when they're hungry. But that's their food for the night.

They also have a snack cupboard that they can access whenever they want unless it's when I'm actually cooking. Limiting snacks for about an hour or so before dinner has helped.[/i]


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

This is kind of where I am at also. I LOVE Alfie Kohn and AP/CL princaples but for us it is just not working so I am branching out!









I also can see that my allowing the kids to create their own boundrys, that I thought was a good thing, is actually a very very bad thing. I can remember being a kid and just wishing my parents would create boundrys for me. Boundrys = Love, and IMO, kids don't come equiped to make their own boundrys.

I dont want to pendulum swing to the other side like Ezzo and people like him but there has to be freaking middle ground! LOL.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

I have removed some posts from this thread that either contained user agreements or quoted them.

Please remember the guidelines of the Gentle Discipline Forum particularly the following:

Welcome to Gentle Discipline. This forum has a specific aim: to help parents learn and apply gentle discipline methods in raising their children. *Please appreciate that this forum is not a place to uphold or advocate physical punishment of children.*

Thank you
Allgirls


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Jaygee...may I ask the ages of your children? They may or may not be developmentally able to do as required yet. Eta..never mind I see them in your siggy.

The biggest factor I have noticed in encouraging and inspiring manners is the modelling of them. My children are very very polite(not 100% of course but who is) and "I" get complimented and asked all the time.

I have never actively "taught" manners however everyone(adult) in our family goes out of their way to be polite and thus exhibit the manners we want to see from the little ones. It seems to be working quite well. Of course there are tantrums and issues with frustration but these are usually from known causes..hunger/sleep etc. and their own particular personalities...some kids take disappointment in stride, some are devastated by it









As to cleaning up...I find that getting children to clean up on their own is also something that has to be inspired in them once they are old enough. My 5 year old has a regular "job" and she takes it very seriously. I never have to give her consequenses for it. It's been her "job" for 2 years(making hers and her sister's beds) and she does it. I never nag or remind and I do it if she forgets(to set the example of helping others when they can't do something for themselves) but because she's taken ownership of this particular job she's proud of herself for doing it almost every day for 2 straight years. My younger(3) daughter puts the little soap thing in the dishwasher..it's her job right now.

We clean up toys together. I will assign each child a job in the clean up "sophia you take books, Martina you take dolls I'll do all other toys. We do a big clean up together. This is less overwhelming and encourages cooperation. They are 2.5 and 5. They are being taught how to tidy/clean up but I don't expect them to be good at it yet or want to do it on my schedule. We do however have a routine of cleaning up before bed and before we go anywhere. They happily help(if they are well fed and not over tired)

I also try to model happiness/cheerfulness in my own responsibilities and express my frustration in the context of how I'm feeling rather than how I don't like the job. For example there are days I am fine cooking, cleaning, taking care of the kids..most of the time..but on days where I am over tired, hungry, stressed about something I may grumble about the dishes or making beds or laundry but I make sure to explain to my kids that "I don't feel like doing laundry today because I'm tired, not because I hate doing laundry".

I also ask for help with things when I'm tired like that. I will say "kids, mommy's tired, can you help me with the laundry today" and they will help because they love to take care of me sometimes.

I don't know if any of that helps but it does help around here.

Good luck!


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

The biggest factor I have noticed in encouraging and inspiring manners is the modelling of them. My children are very very polite(not 100% of course but who is) and "I" get complimented and asked all the time.

I have never actively "taught" manners however everyone(adult) in our family goes out of their way to be polite and thus exhibit the manners we want to see from the little ones. It seems to be working quite well. Of course there are tantrums and issues with frustration but these are usually from known causes..hunger/sleep etc. and their own particular personalities...some kids take disappointment in stride, some are devastated by it
Ditto for us. People always say that ds has awesome manners, but I don't remember ever forcing it. I always modeled it and gave gentle reminders when he was small. If he didn't cooperate I said "please" or "thank you" for him. He seemed to just internalize good manners along the way.

We also talk, now that he is older, about what a good impression he makes on people with his good manners. He knows to hold the door for ladies, to say please and thank you to anyone who does it for him, to compliment someone on a dinner they serve him etc. I don't care if it is old fashioned--good manners will take you far in almost any career, and a young man who knows traditional good manners is well poised to succeed. Bad manners can really hamper you in adulthood. I always tell him things others say about him to reinforce the fact that good manners go far in making a good impression in the adult world. "Everyone at work was so impressed by you. They said they never met such a well mannered young man." Ds really likes to hear that adults noticed he tried to make a good impression.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls* 
The biggest factor I have noticed in encouraging and inspiring manners is the modelling of them. My children are very very polite(not 100% of course but who is) and "I" get complimented and asked all the time.

I have never actively "taught" manners however everyone(adult) in our family goes out of their way to be polite and thus exhibit the manners we want to see from the little ones. It seems to be working quite well. Of course there are tantrums and issues with frustration but these are usually from known causes..hunger/sleep etc. and their own particular personalities...some kids take disappointment in stride, some are devastated by it









I just wanted to note that the modeling doesn't work for every child. We modeled and modeled and modeled and ds didn't get the polite phrases. It wasn't until his sister was born (she's 3 years younger) and then SHE started saying 'please' and 'thank you' unprompted at age 1 or 1 1/2 that I realized that ds wasn't learning these things.

Ds needed direct teaching. So, it's not a failure of parenting if your child needs direct teaching. It just means they're not as tuned to those social cues.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
I just wanted to note that the modeling doesn't work for every child. We modeled and modeled and modeled and ds didn't get the polite phrases. It wasn't until his sister was born (she's 3 years younger) and then SHE started saying 'please' and 'thank you' unprompted at age 1 or 1 1/2 that I realized that ds wasn't learning these things.

Ds needed direct teaching. So, it's not a failure of parenting if your child needs direct teaching. It just means they're not as tuned to those social cues.

Of course there are always exceptions. Good point.

I didn't experience that with my four daughters though.


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## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

This may be way off, but just wanted to say that trouble sleeping, plus small appetite, plus picky appetite, plus cranky and behavioral issues, plus self-harming (biting self for instance) can all be signs of GAPS-- Gut and Psychology Syndrome. For my oldest son, once we took care of his health issue, he started sleeping, cooperating, eating, and stopped self-harming. It's something to look into at least, you never know.


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

~ DD1 frequently says things like "Mama! Bring me a water!" And if the water isn't brought to her immediately she's say, with attitude, "I TOLD YOU to bring me a water!"

For that, I would repeat what I want to hear "may I please have some water mommy ?" until I heard it back, very sweetly. Then give the water. If they won't do it, no water, and a time-out for the attitude. Try again after the time-out.

~ DS and DD1 completely ignore any requests from me to clean up or put away their toys or even close their dresser drawers or put up their shoes

I give our 5-yo the option of helping me clean up, or having a time-out in his room while I clean up and for a while afterward as well. He chooses to help.

~ Both DDs will not eat. DD1 plays this irritating game where she asks for something, I make it for her, then she says she doesn't want it and asks for something else. Repeat...

I will not ever offer alternate food when I served something that they asked for. They eat it or go hungry.

I can trace their behavior problems to a couple of things:
1) Not enough sleep. Neither DD naps and they tend to go to bed too late and wake too early. I need to get them to bed earlier.

I would either enforce a naptime or an early bedtime.

So what else can I do to improve their behavior? Tonight DD1 refused to eat a single bite at dinner, asked for 3 different plates, slid her chair far across the room to be away from the table, threw her chair at DH







, and bit herself hard on the arm out of anger. It's gone too far.

For that behavior, esp throwing a chair, my child would get a long time-out, apologize to daddy, and then if she was hungry later, would only get back the food she refused earlier. And if there was still an attitude issue, she would go to bed for the night. There are situations that call for establishing very firm limits. That would be one of them.

Honestly what I would start would be a lot more firmness and structure...three square meals a day, at specified times, two healthy snacks, at scheduled times and of my choosing, and no other food choices. Also a set bedtime and if the little one still gets grouchy in the middle of the day a set naptime for her too.

Also, it sounds like they are yanking your chain a bit. I would go to a consistent response of immediate consequences. Basically, skip the dance of a child yanking your chain until you lose it. Just skip it and go straight to the action of a consequence. There is a book that explains this very well... Setting Limits With Your Strong-Willed Child. It was a lifesaver for me...really turned things around with our DS1. Our home became a much more positive and happy place within a week and a half. Most of his bratty behavior was transformed that quickly. He learned that there was a new system in place and became a boy who wanted to please us with positive behavior. That was over 2 yrs ago and it is still working and has worked well for DS2 as well.


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## Lazy Gardens (Dec 11, 2008)

Quote:

~ DD1 frequently says things like "Mama! Bring me a water!" And if the water isn't brought to her immediately she's say, with attitude, "I TOLD YOU to bring me a water!"
I would reply with "Yes, you TOLD me. You did not politely ask me. Please ask politely when you want me to do for you." And if the demand is repeated, so is the reply.

CAUTION: Any alert toddler will turn this right around on you, so if you are in the habit of ordering them to do things, you can expect to get this used on you ... it's a learning experience.

Quote:

~ DS and DD1 completely ignore any requests from me to clean up or put away their toys or even close their dresser drawers or put up their shoes
Simple consequence: tell them that before bedtime all clothing and toys have to be put away and things that are lying about might disappear. They won't do it, and when you do it after they are asleep, the toys and clothing vanish for a while. Just hide them in a lockable container somewhere.

Before you do this, thin out their possessions and make sure there is a "place for everything" before you insist that "everything be in its place". Make sure they can reach the storage, etc. My neighbor was really frustrated that her 4-year old wasn't taking care of his clothes when the real problem was he couldn't hang them up because he was too short, and half the drawers in the dresser were too high. We installed a lower closet rod and put in some bookcases with bins for his clothes. It helped

An easier, self-inflicted consequence: Stop insisting on adult-level order in their room: contain the chaos in there and only make things vanish if they are cluttering the rest of the house.

Remind them before bedtime that it's time to collect their stuff. Then you "police the public area" after the kids are in bed, and dump all the collection into a storage bin. Return it in a few days to weeks, by placing it in their room, in the correct place.

This has natural consequences:
1 - They will very quickly learn to collect their stuff at the appointed time to keep it from vanishing.

2 - Eventually they will be unable to find things in the clutter of their rooms. And if they can't find something because of all the clutter and complain to you, don't buy a replacement or help them find it.

Ask them if they think it would be easier to find ____ if they were always in the same place, with all of the ___ together? If they say "yes", ask them how _they_ would set it up and help them do it. Your idea of organization might not be theirs. Even if they want to dump all the shoes in one box, it's a start. And in business terms, they have become a "stakeholder" in the plan. It may be shoes one week, trucks the next, but the self-inflicted consequences of clutter will slowly change their behavior.

Quote:

~ Both DDs will not eat. DD1 plays this irritating game where she asks for something, I make it for her, then she says she doesn't want it and asks for something else. Repeat...
Hunger is a marvelous self-inflicted consequence. Take advantage of it.

Tell her, half an hour or so before the first mealtime of the new regime, that you will only fulfill one request per meal, so she has to choose carefully. It's her choice to eat it or not. If she doesn't eat it, she's apparently not hungry, mealtime is over. End of discussion, end of short order cooking. Yes, she'll pitch a hissy-fit a few times, but either she eats what she asks for or she goes hungry until the next regularly scheduled mealtime.

And by the next mealtime, she'll probably be hungry. If she repeats the same "want it, don't want it" ... let her experience two missed meals.

***************
llp34:
Yes ... consequences have to be very close in time to the infraction, or self-inflicted, or they don't sink in.


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## homebirthing (Nov 10, 2002)

Can I give you a big hug and say that this post makes me feel good!! I just posted about wanting to give my kids away at times!! I am so glad I am not alone bratty kids. It makes me feel a little more normal today.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

Hunger is a marvelous self-inflicted consequence. Take advantage of it.

Tell her, half an hour or so before the first mealtime of the new regime, that you will only fulfill one request per meal, so she has to choose carefully. It's her choice to eat it or not. If she doesn't eat it, she's apparently not hungry, mealtime is over. End of discussion, end of short order cooking. Yes, she'll pitch a hissy-fit a few times, but either she eats what she asks for or she goes hungry until the next regularly scheduled mealtime.

And by the next mealtime, she'll probably be hungry. If she repeats the same "want it, don't want it" ... let her experience two missed meals.
If we are talking about small kids who have no access to fruit or healthy snacks between meals, I do not agree with such an extreme stance. However, I do agree that we can control our own actions. I would not make this, that, and the other just because my three year old was being fickle. However, refusing to make a new meal doesn't mean my child cannot eat. We always had simple snacks within reach that ds could get on his own from an early age. That way I was not forbidding all access to food, which I think is unhealthy. The parent can plan meals, but children really may not be hungry on schedule, and they shouldn't be punished for being hungry earlier or later than the rest of the family. I wouldn't want to live like that. My child doesn't either.

(I just quietly ate a chewy granola bar at my desk at work!)


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## milkybean (Mar 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JayGee* 
DH and I have had it. Our children have become disrespectful and bratty. They expect to be catered to and refuse to help out.

Some examples:

~ DD1 frequently says things like "Mama! Bring me a water!" And if the water isn't brought to her immediately she's say, with attitude, "I TOLD YOU to bring me a water!"

~ DS and DD1 completely ignore any requests from me to clean up or put away their toys or even close their dresser drawers or put up their shoes

~ Both DDs will not eat. DD1 plays this irritating game where she asks for something, I make it for her, then she says she doesn't want it and asks for something else. Repeat...

I can trace their behavior problems to a couple of things:
1) Not enough sleep. Neither DD naps and they tend to go to bed too late and wake too early. I need to get them to bed earlier.
2) They've been watching too many DVDs







:. We were TV free all summer, but I relapsed with the cold weather by allowing them DVDs. This is entirely my fault.
3) They don't eat enough, even though I provide healthy snacks. Both DDs are VERY picky.

So what else can I do to improve their behavior? Tonight DD1 refused to eat a single bite at dinner, asked for 3 different plates, slid her chair far across the room to be away from the table, threw her chair at DH







, and bit herself hard on the arm out of anger. It's gone too far.


To me, those aren't disrespectful or bratty.

DS does some of those things sometimes, and although it 'triggers' hubby to want to DO something (he was raised in a household with adults who hit), we've worked our way into being calm.

The demands for food or drink are simply countered with our need to have it said a bit better. I totally agree with what a PP said about the language needing to be more simple...so water please is a good variation of just WATER!

Not cleaning...I make it a game. A race. Who can put more legos into the bucket? I go slow, but my hand is bigger so a scoop for me is more than it is for DS. So DS is racing around grabbing the legos while I go leisurely and it all gets put away. Sometimes I "win", sometimes he does, but it ends in hugs and laughter and good feelings.

Eating. I always ate what was put in front of me. I was the oldest and my brother's nonsense with food made me nutty even at a young age. I remember eating his potatoes after AGES of sitting there, just so it would stop. I have food allergies and sensitivities, and my pregnancy was filled with more hardcore aversions to foods than cravings. I cried routinely throughout b/c the look, smell, taste or even texture, or even PERCEIVED texture of the food would make it absolutely intolerable.

My full sib and our three half sibs, all renowned food avoiders, seemed to protect themselves from the bad foods. They do NOT have allergies, sensitivities (except the full brother who can't be in a HOUSE with citrus being peeled or he starts sneezing no matter where he is, immediately after the citrus is peeled), or problems with food.

So the one who did not protect herself and who ate whatever was given to her to keep the peace has problems, and the ones who refused foods that seemed gross to them do not.

Needless to say, we do not ever force DS to eat something if he doesn't want to. I see a very strong cause and effect in the food behaviour in me and my sibs, and I do NOT want DS to have the same problem.

Therefore, sometimes he doesn't eat and sometimes he does. We try to never have a battleground at the table. It makes me sad, angry, and very very uncomfortable when it starts getting like that, and ultimately I have decided to BELIEVE my son when he wants to avoid something.

You mentioned in a later post that your daughter fell asleep VERY fast. That sort of stuff at the table is nearly ALWAYS a sign in our household that extreme sleepiness is at hand. So it's not a problem with her, but a problem in that her sleepiness wasn't noticed earlier. Especially the biting, oh especially the biting.

Also for us, there was biting before we discovered that DS can't have corn syrup in any way, shape, or form. After we finally figured that out, after he pretty much beat me up at a festival 20 minutes post-DumDum lollipop, he has been much more peaceful, though he will still act out (without biting) when over-tired.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sophienaz* 
You could see his ribs through his t-shirt, he was so skinny, and his eyes had dark circles underneath them, it drove me crazy but it also freaked me out.

Dark circles under eyes is often a sign of allergy. Dairy, especially. I can't give up dairy entirely, but when I have gone vegan in the past, my dark circles disappear altogether. As a child when eggs and dairy were our main protein source, despite my being allergic (runny nose) to eggs, I had enormous circles under my eyes b/c of the dairy.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JayGee* 
And here's where the problem comes in. I don't have good consequences. I grew up in a home where I would have gotten my mouth smacked for talking disrespectfully, and that's not an option here. DH grew up in a home where they were threatened with a switch if they misbehaved. Also not an option. It's like I'm frozen when these things happen. Basically, I'm ashamed to admit, I do nothing other than seethe.

Since you aren't going to react to these things like the parents did, you really might think of redefining those behaviours. Like I said, they aren't bratty or disrespectful in my head at all. Perfect? No. Something to strive for? Oh gosh no. But still, not the words you've described them as, not to us.

And once you don't see them in that way anymore, you can more easily respond positively to them, helping them find a different way of speaking, creating fun ways to clean up (or yes, put the THINGS into "time out", LOL, if they aren't being put away at all), noticing exhaustion earlier, and maybe respecting their food needs OR figuring out what they are really looking for.

With the food changes...I do sometimes reach my limit if he's asking for a variety of foods...just b/c he asks doesn't mean I always make it...I do make different things more often than hubby does sometimes, and other times he makes more (DS is in a growth spurt and required a grilled cheese sandwich at 11 o'clock last night, which he ate inside of 2 minutes, brushed teeth again, then fell asleep), but usually we can somehow find a compromise with DS, or just go with the PB&J and be done with it.

Good luck!


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## JayGee (Oct 5, 2002)

milkybean, thank you so much for your thoughtful post. I think reframing the behavior is a good idea. Everyone has had such great input here. Thank you all!

I've been quietly working with both DDs on asking for things rather than demanding them, and they are really making progress. Both DS and DD2 are being very helpful in the cleaning up department; DD1 likes to lay on the floor and "watch" all of us clean up while moving one toy about an inch away from where it was







.

In terms of food, DH stumbled across something he calls the "lunch line" that my kids are crazy for and it's really helping. He sets up bowls and plates of all different things (lots of sliced veggies, fruit, cheese, ww crackers, rice, etc.) and each child gets a tray with divided sections. They then go through the lunch line (which is set up on the counter) and can pick whatever they'd like. They are eating so much more now, and much healthier than before. Now prepping the lunch line is a pain for me, but if it gets everyone eating, I won't complain







.

They really are three wonderful, spunky, fun children. I do think they need a bit more guidance and direction from both DH and me though.


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