# anyone read UP and NOT agree?



## happeeevraftr (Mar 27, 2005)

I'm just wondering because I am suggesting Unconditional Parenting for my Book Club to read and I'm very hesitant because, you know, he suggests that it's _damaging_ to impose "logical consequences" on children, let alone any other type of punishment.

I'm not sure how they will take it, but I really would love to have more people In Real Life who know about and practice the principles in UP. But I'm afraid they'll all think I'm crazy and/or permissive and/or judging them every time I see one of them put her kid time-out. And I'm not; I totally understand where they're coming from. In fact, that's why I want to share this book--it has really changed my perspective on kids and my relationship with them, and I am FOR SURE a much better mother than I ever could have been without it. I was NOT raised like this, and I was planning on being the strict, firm, but loving parent until reading it. Now I feel like I have such a wonderful relationship with my three year old, and we have such great conversations about things--none of which could occur if I was that other kind of parent.

So I'm wondering, how are they going to take it (if they even agree to read it)? Has anyone actually read the book and still think it's necessary to use punishments/logical consequences/time-out? What about the praise thing? Anyone think AK went overboard on the idea that we shouldn't tell our kids good job or give them other kind of praise?

If you have read it and don't agree with any or all of the ideas in it, please post and tell me specifically what you didn't like and why. I want to be prepared. Also, tell me how you would feel toward a friend who gave you the book and told you she thought that was the best way to think about parenting.

TIA!


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happeeevraftr* 
I'm just wondering because I am suggesting Unconditional Parenting for my Book Club to read and I'm very hesitant because, you know, he suggests that it's _damaging_ to impose "logical consequences" on children, let alone any other type of punishment.

I'm not sure how they will take it, but I really would love to have more people In Real Life who know about and practice the principles in UP. But I'm afraid they'll all think I'm crazy and/or permissive and/or judging them every time I see one of them put her kid time-out. And I'm not; I totally understand where they're coming from. In fact, that's why I want to share this book--it has really changed my perspective on kids and my relationship with them, and I am FOR SURE a much better mother than I ever could have been without it. I was NOT raised like this, and I was planning on being the strict, firm, but loving parent until reading it. Now I feel like I have such a wonderful relationship with my three year old, and we have such great conversations about things--none of which could occur if I was that other kind of parent.

So I'm wondering, how are they going to take it (if they even agree to read it)? Has anyone actually read the book and still think it's necessary to use punishments/logical consequences/time-out? What about the praise thing? Anyone think AK went overboard on the idea that we shouldn't tell our kids good job or give them other kind of praise?

If you have read it and don't agree with any or all of the ideas in it, please post and tell me specifically what you didn't like and why. I want to be prepared. Also, tell me how you would feel toward a friend who gave you the book and told you she thought that was the best way to think about parenting.

TIA!

Yes, I have read the book and I think that it is just fine to say "good job." I think that his beliefs on this are simply out of wack with reality. (And you can find some scholarly rejoinders to his theories)

I also believe that certain types of time outs have their place with certain types of kids in certain situations. I don't believe in punishment though, and didn't before I read his work.

It's been a little while since I read the book but will skim it and try to post more later.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Well, as you described it, it has really challenged my *thinking* about parenting. It has led me to question the consequences we do impose. But I haven't stopped altogether.

My main contention is whether every logical consequence/time out is always going to be damaging to a child. I think it should be a last resort, but if the choice is my getting angry vs. a logical consequence, which is worse? For example, our son would constantly pester us after he has finished dinner and we are still eating (usually for dessert, sometimes for a computer game, both of which are allowed after dinner). The rule is: Those are allowed after everyone is done eating. It's impolite to have your dessert or ask mom and dad to get up and start a computer game before everyone is done. It also makes me very cranky.

After being asked every minute whether we were done/whether he could have dessert, we imposed a 5 minute 'pestering penalty' - we give him a warning, if asks again after that, we set the timer, and when it beeps, then he can have what he asked for. That solved the problem in about 2 days. Now, after dinner, he occupies himself with something else, we can finish our dinner in peace, and are thus much less likely to become angry/cranky.

I contend that my becoming angry at being pestered is more damaging to my relationship with son than forcing him to wait 5 minutes as a consequence.

What I've taken from the book is that punishment destroys your relationship and doesn't teach the child anything. So, losing TV for talking back to mom - what do you learn? To be more mad at mom. Time out for throwing a toy? Why? But then, time out for truly anti social behavior DOES make sense to me. I try to remove myself, but if ds is being really anti social, sometimes it makes more sense to send him to his room for a bit.

In terms of praise -- I think it's important to note for people new to the idea that he's not saying "don't be positive". What he's saying (and this is backed up by research) "don't evaluate". It is, once you get in the habit, just as easy to say "you climbed all the way to the top" or "look how high you are" as it is to say "good job!" When ds shows me his drawings, he doens't look for an evaluation, he points out the details to me ("guess what color this siren is when it turns on?"). We have more interesting and meaningful conversations about what they're doing because of it. Is "good job" out of my vocab? No, it's too ingrained for that. But I do try to make it rare.


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

I have read UP. I thing the I don't like about it, is it is super heavy on theory and philosophy but has almost nil when it comes actually helping parents practice UP. I just don't think it all that useful for the avg. parent, not without the tools or information one needs to actually practice UP.

Quote:

Has anyone actually read the book and still think it's necessary to use punishments/logical consequences/time-out?
Yes, I do still think it is necesary (or at least not damaging and may be helpful) to use logical consequences (which I don't think is the same as punishment) or even time-out occasionally. Not all the time, and not as a major part of parenting...but every child is different. Every situation is different. And, let's fact it....some children are easier to parent than others. Not every chlid responds well to re-direction or distraction or negotiation or reasoning. . Sometimes you .just. need. the. behavior. to. stop. A child keeps throwing a ball indoors and all the distraction and re-direction and talking doesn't help...sometimes you just need to take it away before they break something or someone gets hurt.


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## skueppers (Mar 30, 2005)

I don't agree with everything he has to say, in particular the stuff about praise. Here's something I said in the "everyone says good job..." thread:

_Personally, I think Mr. Kohn takes things a bit too far. I grew up with parents who would have agreed with him about these things, and I found it very frustrating never to feel that my parents were proud of me for any of my achievements. I never had the faintest clue that my mother liked any of my artwork, for example, until I was in my 30's and she presented me with a gift of a framed and matted watercolor of my parents' house which done when I was perhaps 10 or 12. (A watercolor I today find embarrassing in its immaturity, though it is interesting to see how I perceived the house I grew up in.)

So anyway, while I agree with him that the use of mindless praise is detrimental to children's development, I do think it's worth occasionally demonstrating that one does actually recognize the value of their achievements -- and not merely in the "I can see you're really proud of that" kind of way, but in the "wow, that's a really cool 747 you built with your legos" way.

Oh, and I will say that growing up in such a household did teach me not to rely on external validation, so in the end it worked out as Mr. Kohn suggests that it would. I just hated it at the time and wished my parents would be more enthusiastic about the things I did well._

I also agree with some of the other respondents on this thread that every child is different, and that parents need to use their best judgement on techniques that would be useful with their particular child, which will undoubtedly vary with the age of the child.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I haven't read UP







but I did want to bring up the Book Club aspect. I don't know that I'd be comfortable recommending a parenting book at a book club, in general. I usually only feel comfortable recommending a parenting book to someone if they are askign for help or ideas, or if it's someone I'm in conversation with about parenting specifically. I think it might seem a bit offputting to suggest this fairly 'radical' parenting book, especially if this is a mainstream group.

As far as a friend approaching me, I'd receive it better if she said "this is something I've found that works great for us" as opposed to thinking it's the "best" way to parent.

If I'm wrong about the content of your club, however, and it's a parenting-type group (or a non-mainstream group), then, it's a different thing. Feel free to ignore me.









JMHO


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
In terms of praise -- I think it's important to note for people new to the idea that he's not saying "don't be positive". What he's saying (and this is backed up by research) "don't evaluate". It is, once you get in the habit, just as easy to say "you climbed all the way to the top" or "look how high you are" as it is to say "good job!" When ds shows me his drawings, he doens't look for an evaluation, he points out the details to me ("guess what color this siren is when it turns on?"). We have more interesting and meaningful conversations about what they're doing because of it.

Yeah, I think a lot of people hear "no praise" and think "no positive interaction" and that is sooooo far from the truth!

I (and dp too) was already anti-punishment and reward before reading Kohn, but his book reinforced that.
The praise thing, um, I don't praise generally. I do a lot of "I see! you got to the top!" type stuff. And ds is happy with that. When other people say "Good job" I see a change in his reactions/reasons for doing things. I try to reiterate to him that it's just fine if he DOESN'T get the ball in the hole (after someone says "good job" for getting it in).
I don't know how much I like Kohn's reasons for not praising. None of them really strike me too much. I like the Continuum Concepts reasoning (children want to do what is expected of them, if you praise for social behavior it implies that it wasn't expected and was surprising that they did, indeed, behave socially.)
If my ds WANTED my judgement, after my expressing a nonjudgmental observation, I'd give it.
(eta: also, my praise would have to be in line with how DS felt about the event)
To be fair, Kohn isn't totally anti-praise either. He is quite against the manipulative type though. The other "WOW!" type of praise, I think he basically says that it would be good to cut it down.

As far as book clubs, I think UP is quite advanced in terms of gd'ness.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

I read UP and the only think I was iffy about is not using praise. Then I re-constructed my thoughts on this matter and realized that I am not going to use "unsubstantiated" praise, the one that does not mean anything, or the one that makes kids believe that they are likes because they did XYZ.
Sharing their pride with them, supporting them in their achievements - I am totally fine with.
Oh, and to address a concern about the book being highly "theoretical" and not having a specific set of steps to take - for *me* it was just what I needed! I often frown at the manual-type of books that say "If you do X the result will be Y", or "For the kids we all should do the following things&#8230;" Every child/family is different, so for me having a change in the *general* mind set was more useful than practical suggestions


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
I haven't read UP







but I did want to bring up the Book Club aspect. I don't know that I'd be comfortable recommending a parenting book at a book club, in general.

Well, judging by this thread, happeeevraftr could suggest the book by saying "there's this parenting book that should generate a *ton* of discussion"


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Well, judging by this thread, happeeevraftr could suggest the book by saying "there's this parenting book that should generate a *ton* of discussion"


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
To be fair, Kohn isn't totally anti-praise either. He is quite against the manipulative type though. The other "WOW!" type of praise, I think he basically says that it would be good to cut it down.

Yes, that's the thing for me - many of the irl people I know have sort of missed the point with the Good Job thing, and I think it has more to do with manipulation than genuine expressions of excitement. The latter is fine with me - I do it a lot.


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## NoHiddenFees (Mar 15, 2002)

Kohn irritates me: he's totally a fear-mongerer. It's not that his core ideas are wrong, but rather I think he approaches it from the wrong side. A good book club project would be to compare _Hold on to Your Kids_ with UP. Kohn in all about connexions being broken; parents are warned that even an inappropriately timed look can damage a child permanently. I think he takes great liberties with his research to make these types of sweeping statements. Children are not at all resilient in his world view. HOTYK is about connexions being strained and repaired... about re-connecting with your children and reinforcing the bonds. Parents are acknowledged as human beings who *gasp* make mistakes and can show by example how we act when we do.

The thing that irritates me most about Kohn is his paying lip service to genuine/authentic interactions with our children while simultaneously giving the parent so much to worry about (and such grave consequences!) that their every action and word must be critically examined. I rather pity him, it must be very wearying to live in his world.


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

I think UP is a must-read because it will make most people challenge their views on parenting.

I don't agree with every single thing AK says, but I still love UP and recommend it to everyone. I think UP is an ideal, and one I strive for, but on our own family terms. We do use logical consequences ("if you throw that toy again, i'm going to take it away to keep the family safe") and sometimes *gasp* a time out.

But even though I don't totally fit the UP mold, I love AK's theories, and I do my best to work towards being as UP as I can possibly be.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NoHiddenFees* 
Kohn irritates me: he's totally a fear-mongerer. It's not that his core ideas are wrong, but rather I think he approaches it from the wrong side.

I think you've hit the nail on the head for how I see Kohn in general. I read _Punished by Rewards_ when I was a teacher (and most of UP). While I agree with so much of it and have thought these things on my own . . .his writings leave me stressed out.

(This is not specific to Kohn, but . . .) Also, as much as I love reflecting on my parenting and improving on it-- I feel it is one of my most important tasks in life to become a more gentle person-- sometimes overthinking everything gets in the way. Sometimes, ya know, I just want to tell DD that she needs to get dressed and not have to play games to get her to do it, give her choices, etc. I just want some things not to be a big deal. I just want her to get dressed so that she can go to her school on time without any big to-do. Like today, I did not play any games to get her to do it, give her choices, or ANYTHING. I was just too tired. I didn't want to hear her complain about the choices or continue to say, "After I do___." I let it go. So, guess what happened? She didn't get dressed on time (I gave her an hour), her sister fell asleep and I'm not about to ruin her nap, so she didn't go to school. She was very upset about that. Just had to get that out!

PS I love _Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipine_ over _UP_. The ideas are similar but much more basic and precise-- far more accessible. The author's focus is more on the parent doing work on him/herself vs. giving a million reaons why x, y, and z is so damaging to a child. I feel ETLDTD gives you real tools, things to focus on . . .not just for parenting, but as a person in ANY relationship . I recommended this for our AP book club, and it went over well. (But, it was a prenting club, and an AP one at that.)


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## Rivka5 (Jul 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NoHiddenFees* 
Kohn irritates me: he's totally a fear-mongerer. It's not that his core ideas are wrong, but rather I think he approaches it from the wrong side. A good book club project would be to compare _Hold on to Your Kids_ with UP. Kohn in all about connexions being broken; parents are warned that even an inappropriately timed look can damage a child permanently. I think he takes great liberties with his research to make these types of sweeping statements. Children are not at all resilient in his world view. [...]

The thing that irritates me most about Kohn is his paying lip service to genuine/authentic interactions with our children while simultaneously giving the parent so much to worry about (and such grave consequences!) that their every action and word must be critically examined. I rather pity him, it must be very wearying to live in his world.

Yeah, this exactly! I blame Kohn every time I see a mother post that she doesn't know what is okay to say to her child during a happy, loving moment. It seems like he promotes such artificiality - and always with the threat that your child's psyche will be permanently damaged if you step out of line.

A lot of MDCers approvingly cite Kohn's research. When I read UP (about a year ago and from the library, so I'm going from memory alone here) I read the endnotes very carefully. In a few cases I even went to the library to look up the original journal articles he cites. I came to the conclusion that there is very little evidence to support his more controversial claims.

For example, take time out. Kohn says that children experience time out as love withdrawal. Then he cites a couple of studies that found that children who perceive their parents as using love withdrawal have all kinds of psychological problems. The citations are for very old research studies that don't say anything at all about time out. He doesn't cite any research saying that time out is harmful, or any research demonstrating that children experience time out as love withdrawal. None. But because of the way he links his _opinions_ about time out to research citations, it's easy to come away from the text of his book with the impression that research shows that time out is harmful.

Similarly, his assertion that children experience all praise and correction as conditional love is completely unsupported by research evidence. It's just his opinion.

I don't think there's anything wrong with Kohn's advice about what parents _should_ do, but his lectures about what parents _shouldn't_ do go way beyond his evidence. And I guess I'm just suspicious of anyone whose primary argument is that 99% of parents are damaging and bad. It makes me wonder about his agenda. I hate arguments from either end of the spectrum that essentially boil down to the conviction that most people suck. I don't believe that, and I don't think that anything positive is gained from all the fear, shame, and guilt involved.

The OP also asked:

Quote:

Also, tell me how you would feel toward a friend who gave you the book and told you she thought that was the best way to think about parenting.
I don't usually stay friends very long with people who are convinced that they know the best way for everyone. I would be really turned off by this approach.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

I'm finishing it now. I think he raises really good ideas in a society where people say "good job" every 3.5 seconds, and where parents seem to threaten to take toys or something away or dangle a carrot every time they don't immediately obey. At least that's my experience. That being said I think he does take a lot of ideas too far to where they are not realistic. And it's not the good job parents who are reading his book; it's the parents who are probably already paying attention and offering specific, positive reinforcement most of the time as opposed to rote Good Jobs. But then I think most good books take their points too far.


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## slightly crunchy (Jul 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 

In terms of praise -- I think it's important to note for people new to the idea that he's not saying "don't be positive". What he's saying (and this is backed up by research) "don't evaluate". It is, once you get in the habit, just as easy to say "you climbed all the way to the top" or "look how high you are" as it is to say "good job!"

And someone like Naomi Aldort would say that descriptive phrasing is better, but that frequently commenting on what a child does, is still evaluation and is disrespectful. She says it is patronizing, because we would still not say things like this to an adult.

It is when the children ask us to rejoice with them about something, that it is better to join in and celebrate with them.

UP, to me, is things other gentle discipline writers have said before. I don't think his viewpoints are especially unique, it is just that he maybe has a higher profile than some other authors.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *slightly crunchy* 
And someone like Naomi Aldort would say that descriptive phrasing is better, but that frequently commenting on what a child does, is still evaluation and is disrespectful. She says it is patronizing, because we would still not say things like this to an adult.

We wouldn't? I congratulate my adult friends all the time when they've achieved something, tell them "great job" after a performance (most are musicians), etc.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

Kohn in all about connexions being broken; parents are warned that even an inappropriately timed look can damage a child permanently. I think he takes great liberties with his research to make these types of sweeping statements. Children are not at all resilient in his world view.
I agree with that concern.

The thing is, I think it's the unplanned trauma's that best illustrate resiliency. If a parent is acting callous and justifying that with "he'll get over it", somehow children know the difference. They respond with resentment instead of resiliency. I see this with my own child and with adults who speak about their childhoods.

I though ds was impossibly fragile and precious for about 12 days. Then he had open heart surgery, and I realized he *had* to be resilient. When resilience and survival fall in step, you appreciate the saying 'Children are so much more resilient than adults'. In some ways they just are!

As a result of that, I do have confidence that ds can handle burdens like using a seatbelt, limiting his sugar intake, and not being allowed to play in the street. I have never worried that he will land on a therapist couch because we used a carseat.

Yet, even knowing how amazingly strong and resilient ds is, I don't feel right using that knowledge to justify a dynamic of punishments. Somehow, ds knows the difference. Because there really is a difference. I think that is what Kohn is trying to say. I haven't read all of his books, so I'm just responding to your thoughts above.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *slightly crunchy* 
And someone like Naomi Aldort would say that descriptive phrasing is better, but that frequently commenting on what a child does, is still evaluation and is disrespectful. She says it is patronizing, because we would still not say things like this to an adult.


People say "good job" ALL the time in a work place. It's "good job man" when you win a case, not "You gave a compelling argument that convinced the jury to award your client a million dollars'

The REAL world uses "good job."

It just does.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

But do parents use the words "Good job" because the real world does, or does the real world use the words because parents do?
Iow, people grow up with evaluative/judgemental phrases and so start using those same phrases into adulthood.
And it's possible that those same people feel that it is necessary to say good job, because it felt good to them to hear it. But the words (any phrase like them) may not have meant so much if they had FELT unconditional acceptance, and had parents who shared in their positive experiences/accomplishments (though without putting their judgement on the situation).

Another idea is that my home is not the "real world". My "good job" to another adult doesn't have near the impact that my judgement may have on my child.


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## sparklefairy (May 21, 2005)

I've decided that it's more damaging for our family as individuals and as a whole to not have any consequences or to have the natural consequence when it's inappropriate than to have an appropriate (as deemed by me) logical consequence.


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## BetsyPage (Mar 5, 2004)

I didn't have too many problems with the book, but I was already familiar with much of the research that he cites. I found it to be short on practical helps though, and do not agree with many of his "followers" in how *they* apply it... so less problem with him than with how others run with it, especially in terms of "TCS" philosophy. (I know he isn't TCS, but a number of folks who like him seem to be.)


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *slightly crunchy* 
And someone like Naomi Aldort would say that descriptive phrasing is better, but that frequently commenting on what a child does, is still evaluation and is disrespectful. She says it is patronizing, because we would still not say things like this to an adult.

It is when the children ask us to rejoice with them about something, that it is better to join in and celebrate with them.

But, what troubles me about this line of argumentation is that my children are NOT adults yet. Most adults I know don't respond to every statement I make with "why?" They have a greater understanding and a greater ability to make inferences. In addition, my children WANT my attention (Usually my kids are shouting "look mom!" when I describe for them). I'm introverted enough that I don't intrude on their activities unless asked. But I'm asked a whole lot more than any adult would.

The discourse I have with my children is not, and never will be, the same as I have with another adult. It has different features, different topics, and different 'rules'. Do I make it as respectful, as non-evaluative as I can? Yes. Do I worry that I'm giving them too much attention or praise? Frankly, no.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rivka5* 
I guess I'm just suspicious of anyone whose primary argument is that 99% of parents are damaging and bad. It makes me wonder about his agenda. I hate arguments from either end of the spectrum that essentially boil down to the conviction that most people suck.

ITA with this and just about everything NoHiddenFees said about Kohn.. I did learn a lot from him and if I take his thoughts with a HUGE grain of salt and don't decide I am simply an awful parent (when, not to be conceited, but-those around me IRL seem to think I am a decent parent), there are some very good points in the book.

That said, I feel like we have a good thing going in my family, I feel like my kids, my husband and I are a happy family as we are. This book made me wonder if I really should go to such drastic changes, when, as it stands, things here are great. I got a lot more out of Playful Parenting.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

One thing people here need to understand about AK-- and I am a fan, so no dissing him from me. I've heard him speak irl and he's a dear. He's a respector of children. No doubt in my mind at all about that!

However, the reality is this: His children are *not* unschooled. They attend private school. A nice one, but they are not kids who can sleep in if they feel like it. Etc.

There are guidleines and rules etc. And with that-- my only point is to say-- radical unschooling and AK are *not* the same. So if anyone is looking for him to be all that and MDC or "whatever', I have to say, maybe not.

I still like him. I think he's all nearly all that.


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## aywilkes (Sep 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rivka5* 
Yeah, this exactly! I blame Kohn every time I see a mother post that she doesn't know what is okay to say to her child during a happy, loving moment. It seems like he promotes such artificiality - and always with the threat that your child's psyche will be permanently damaged if you step out of line.

A lot of MDCers approvingly cite Kohn's research. When I read UP (about a year ago and from the library, so I'm going from memory alone here) I read the endnotes very carefully. In a few cases I even went to the library to look up the original journal articles he cites. I came to the conclusion that there is very little evidence to support his more controversial claims.

For example, take time out. Kohn says that children experience time out as love withdrawal. Then he cites a couple of studies that found that children who perceive their parents as using love withdrawal have all kinds of psychological problems. The citations are for very old research studies that don't say anything at all about time out. He doesn't cite any research saying that time out is harmful, or any research demonstrating that children experience time out as love withdrawal. None. But because of the way he links his _opinions_ about time out to research citations, it's easy to come away from the text of his book with the impression that research shows that time out is harmful.

Similarly, his assertion that children experience all praise and correction as conditional love is completely unsupported by research evidence. It's just his opinion.

I don't think there's anything wrong with Kohn's advice about what parents _should_ do, but his lectures about what parents _shouldn't_ do go way beyond his evidence. And I guess I'm just suspicious of anyone whose primary argument is that 99% of parents are damaging and bad. It makes me wonder about his agenda. I hate arguments from either end of the spectrum that essentially boil down to the conviction that most people suck. I don't believe that, and I don't think that anything positive is gained from all the fear, shame, and guilt involved.

The OP also asked:

I don't usually stay friends very long with people who are convinced that they know the best way for everyone. I would be really turned off by this approach.

All I can say is WOW mama and I wish there were more critical thinkers and independent researchers in the world like you!!!


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## aywilkes (Sep 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
We wouldn't? I congratulate my adult friends all the time when they've achieved something, tell them "great job" after a performance (most are musicians), etc.

I just had the SAME reaction!!! That is the problem with some experts - too many gross generalizations. I was just talkking to a friend of mine who is getting all sorts of interviews and stuff really quickly yesterday. I said to her, wow, you must be the woman!!! Don't you feel good being in such high demand?!

And my friends use the same kind of praise or whatever you want to call it with me. Not once have I ever felt patronized.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BetsyPage* 
I didn't have too many problems with the book, but I was already familiar with much of the research that he cites. I found it to be short on practical helps though, and do not agree with many of his "followers" in how *they* apply it... so less problem with him than with how others run with it, especially in terms of "TCS" philosophy. (I know he isn't TCS, but a number of folks who like him seem to be.)

You know, after re-reading UP, it seems that there is a lot of room for boundaries and some strictness. You don't really see UP'ers advocating that around here.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
You know, after re-reading UP, it seems that there is a lot of room for boundaries and some strictness. You don't really see UP'ers advocating that around here.

AK is *not* TCS.


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## Max'sMama (Apr 3, 2004)

I would toyally recommend that you suggest it at your book club! Not that I've read it, but, therein lies the greatest thing about book clubs. They allow you and somewhat challenge you to read books you wouldn't normally pick up AND then you can discuss it with others, leaving open a great forum to pick apart ideas and take what you like. Leaving what you don't. If I was part of a book club and if this book was suggested, I would go for it, just for the challenge of reading something not within my normal reading list.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolar2* 
We wouldn't? I congratulate my adult friends all the time when they've achieved something, tell them "great job" after a performance (most are musicians), etc.

OT but I do see "good job" to imply a hierarchy. As a musician (my once-upon-a-life field) I would expect an evaluation of my performance from my teacher. However, I would consider it to be extremely impolite to tell my teacher that she did a "great job" on her performance . . .who am I to be evalutating her? I might tell her that I enjoyed the performance, though. Actually, I make it a point to tell people that I enjoyed/learned a lot/etc. from whatever they have done. I don't avoid all praise (I told DH recently that his first-ever paint job looked very professional, for example) but I do think about the wording, even wth other adults. I only do this because hearing "good job" directed at ME stresses me out a bit.


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## gr8fulmom (Jun 27, 2002)

A very interesting discussion indeed... and I would definitely recommend it to your book club as a result









My 2 cents on UP... I think it is a great read... it certainly made me rethink, reevaluate and in some cases adjust my parenting style... BUT I do not think it is the ultimate treatise on parenting... no book has all the answers because all people are different... I read each book and take what works for my family and leave the rest... I totally agree with pp that his approach is a little bit too fearmongering and doesn't give a lot of practical tools... but I still recommend it all the time along with HOTYK and Kids are Worth It... I think I will borrow Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline from my library... thanks for the recommendation!


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## slightly crunchy (Jul 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
People say "good job" ALL the time in a work place. It's "good job man" when you win a case, not "You gave a compelling argument that convinced the jury to award your client a million dollars'

The REAL world uses "good job."

It just does.

I know a lot of people commented on my post so I am just responding to this one as a lot of the comments are similar.









I guess I don't have a problem with the isolated "good job" like one would say to a peer in a work setting. I think of it like teammates after a great game, or something. I admit I have said it to my children every now and then when they were really excited about something, or when we have all worked together to do something.

But I would say in most instances, I have found "good job" said to me to be patronizing. I just don't like it.

My comment was about how making a lot of descriptive statements in place of "good job" can be just as bad. I mean, do we constantly hover over our colleagues saying things like "wow, that report you wrote had many pages. You typed all the way down to the end of the pages."







I guess I am thinking about the parents at the park (and more like how I used to be) or at the toddler classes applauding every single thing the kid does; "wow, great sliding", "two somersaults in a row", "what a big jump", non-stop. Would children really want to be noticed and have so much of what they do commented on, if they were not groomed to be dependent on that sort of thing, from a young age?

I don't think the other extreme of never noticing, never saying anything, can be great, either. I just know that there are some parents, that praise seems to be the standard response. Like the child can hear 5 or 6 "good jobs" in the span of half an hour.







:


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## slightly crunchy (Jul 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius* 
I might tell her that I enjoyed the performance, though. Actually, I make it a point to tell people that I enjoyed/learned a lot/etc. from whatever they have done. --- I only do this because hearing "good job" directed at ME stresses me out a bit.

I think this is how GJ tends to affect me as well. I also take the same approach with adults IRL. I want to be appreciated and think most others do, too. I just like the hints of evaluation to be taken out of the equation.


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## happeeevraftr (Mar 27, 2005)

Thank you all for your opinions! And please continue sharing them as I'm really enjoying this. Well, the damage is done, it has been added to the list for choices for the coming year. Tomorrow night we will find out if enough of them are even interested in reading it (based on a vote).

I am still very concerned about what will happen if we do read it. The Book Club is made up of moms and it seems that many of our discussions end up going in the direction of parenting, regardless of the book! So I think they'd all be interested in reading a parenting book. And I think this one is good for a book club specifically _because_ it is mostly theory/philosophy and not a step-by-step, how-to guide.

I think what I will say about it is that I think AK has great ideas, he is very respectful of children, and I think his book will generate a VERY interesting, if not heated, discussion.

And I'll just hope it doesn't get too heated. Because I LOVE my book club and I would feel terrible if any of them were to get upset over it. I mean, they're all very mature and it sounds silly to think they might get upset, but parenting is very personal, and we are talking about widely, deeply held beliefs and practices here. I can see how if someone doesn't agree (which I think is likely, especially based on this discussion), that she would feel judged or condemned by me and anyone else who agrees with his ideas.

I'll let you know tomorrow night, (or next time I get a chance) what they decided.


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NoHiddenFees* 
Kohn irritates me: he's totally a fear-mongerer. It's not that his core ideas are wrong, but rather I think he approaches it from the wrong side. A good book club project would be to compare _Hold on to Your Kids_ with UP. Kohn in all about connexions being broken; parents are warned that even an inappropriately timed look can damage a child permanently. I think he takes great liberties with his research to make these types of sweeping statements. Children are not at all resilient in his world view. HOTYK is about connexions being strained and repaired... about re-connecting with your children and reinforcing the bonds. Parents are acknowledged as human beings who *gasp* make mistakes and can show by example how we act when we do.

The thing that irritates me most about Kohn is his paying lip service to genuine/authentic interactions with our children while simultaneously giving the parent so much to worry about (and such grave consequences!) that their every action and word must be critically examined. I rather pity him, it must be very wearying to live in his world.


I agree. This is true of most "experts," I think. I don't agree with punishments or authoritarianism, but that's because I think it's disrespectful and immoral, not because kids who've been put in time out are damaged goods.

And I think evaluations are an important part of discipline, i.e. teaching. Children aren't born knowing what behavior is good and what is bad. They look to us, the parents, to show them, teach them, guide them. I don't withhold that from my children.


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## majazama (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *slightly crunchy* 
Il I guess I am thinking about the parents at the park (and more like how I used to be) or at the toddler classes applauding every single thing the kid does; "wow, great sliding", "two somersaults in a row", "what a big jump", non-stop.

or, 'good chewing', or 'good jumping'...
gawd, that drives me







: , especially since reading UP...









interesting discussion.


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 

The thing is, I think it's the unplanned trauma's that best illustrate resiliency. If a parent is acting callous and justifying that with "he'll get over it", somehow children know the difference. They respond with resentment instead of resiliency. I see this with my own child and with adults who speak about their childhoods.

This is interesting. I've always felt (I think this is Alice ******'s idea) it's the self-righteous punishments that traumatize most deeply; when we allow children to own that negativity and believe they deserve it.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *slightly crunchy* 
My comment was about how making a lot of descriptive statements in place of "good job" can be just as bad.

I agree. I would go crazy if I had to respond like that to everything my DD says/does because she is very verbal. I have learned that often the best response to what she is saying is a genuine "uh-huh." She can tell the difference between an "uh-huh-please-stop-talking-now" and "uh-huh-I-am-listening." (Which is too bad because at the end of the day it turns into the former!)


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius* 
OT but I do see "good job" to imply a hierarchy. As a musician (my once-upon-a-life field) I would expect an evaluation of my performance from my teacher. However, I would consider it to be extremely impolite to tell my teacher that she did a "great job" on her performance . . .who am I to be evalutating her? I might tell her that I enjoyed the performance, though. Actually, I make it a point to tell people that I enjoyed/learned a lot/etc. from whatever they have done. I don't avoid all praise (I told DH recently that his first-ever paint job looked very professional, for example) but I do think about the wording, even wth other adults. I only do this because hearing "good job" directed at ME stresses me out a bit.


Where I work, in the big ol' mainstream corporate world, bosses tell their subordinates "great job" AND subodinates tell their bosses "great job"

I simply believe that AK is WRONGO on the whole notion that this type of interaction with parents is a problem.


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## green betty (Jun 13, 2004)

I don't say "good job" to my child because he, um, doesn't have a job! I might say it to a co-worker, sure. A co-worker, by definition, is doing a job. Nothing wrong with making the comment that (s)he is doing a good one.

I think of a "job" or "work" as doing something that someone else wants you to do, whether it is for pay or to please them or what have you. If you enjoy your work, that's a bonus but it doesn't define the activity. I comment enthusiastically on my toddler's activities all the time (and frankly I think Kohn gives plenty of concrete examples on how one might do that). For the most part he's following his own interests in play. If he's doing something that I want him to do or that somebody else wants him to do... well, I could say "good job", but "thank you" usually seems more appropriate and to the point.


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## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

i think ak is radical, he's made me rethink my parenting as well as the interactions i have with children in general. i don't agree with him 100% (ok...maybe 95%







) but we need more alfie kohns in the world that are heralding a new age of awareness in parenting, and yes some of these ideas and concepts will be on the edge and sometimes a bit of a bitter pill to swallow as the pendulum swings away from punishments, rewards and general authoritarian parenting.

it used to bug me to no end when i worked with other therapists and teachers who said "good job" every 30 seconds to the kids. reading up and watching his dvd taught me why it bugged me. it is a constant evaluation, a judgement...and i strive in my own personal growth to be as non-judgemental as possible.

also, with children...what the heck does "good job" mean anyways?

"good"-value judgement
"job"-?????

it doesn't give much information, and i like to take the opportunities of having as many 'teachable moments' as possible without bringing in that aforementioned value judgement. it doesn't have to be a running commentary, just an occasional loving and positive statement of acknowledgment. i think most people want to be seen and loved, not judged. and in certain contexts, adult world or child's world, the constant barrage of good job, good walking, good pooping etc etc loses whatever meaning it originally had and just fades into the background, but also sets up an expectation that another person is watching and judging. it sets up an external locus of control.

maybe its just me, but in my work world, i would much rather be told "your report was very comprehensive" vs. "you did a great job". same # of words, but a lot more information.

anyways, i'd love to hear about how it all goes when your book club does read up. please keep us posted on that!


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Well, I do agree with Kohn on most points. I would find it an interesting book club read if the group consists of parents. I would be just as interested in a book I did not agree with. Either way, the discussion should be interesting, which is the whole point.

I have worked in many different corporate jobs and now teach at college level. "Good job" is not something I hear very often. The few times I have had it directed at me, it felt very patronizing. It really bugged me. And this was well before I was a parent or had ever thought of it from that standpoint. I do not say it to others no matter the age. I cannot imagine "good jobbing" my students. They might be used to it and think nothing of it, but I feel it is inappropriate. There is plenty of descriptive positive feedback when I feel it is appropriate. I am curious where people are working where this is tossed around like this.

The one concrete time I can remember a coworker saying these words to me was shortly after I started my first academic administration job. I had to give a presentation to 50 professors in an engineering department. The content was controvertial and I was very relieved to be done and to have handled myself professionally during a great deal of temper flaring. One professor came up to me afterwards and said "good job on presenting!". I was actually hurt as though they did not expect the "little girl" to do well on a professional presentation. It seemed like a very non-professional statement and as though I was his subordinate instead of an equal. After I got to know this guy, I found that he actually uses statements like that to manipulate people.

I do disagree with Kohn that praise will totally ruin a child. But I do think it can be harmful for a child with a certain personality type. My MIL is a serious "good jobber". It makes my teeth itch how often she says it to children and adults alike. My poor dh is now a praise-junkie due to being raised by this woman. Luckily he has finally figured out that he is indeed too tied up on hearing those words, but he still occasionally seeks them out. It is sad and difficult for him professionally.


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## aywilkes (Sep 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
Where I work, in the big ol' mainstream corporate world, bosses tell their subordinates "great job" AND subodinates tell their bosses "great job"

I simply believe that AK is WRONGO on the whole notion that this type of interaction with parents is a problem.

My DS who is 9 compliments me sometimes and expresses delight in some of my accomplishments. I think it depends on the kid, how verbal they are, and what kind of relationship the parents have with him. I tell him good job sometimes...I say descriptive statements sometimes. I can assure you that whatever I say to him, compliment or criticism, is not rote language but my sincere feeling at the time.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

While I never say GJ to my DD, she says it to me.


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