# Logical consequence for drawing on walls



## EarthMamaToBe (Feb 19, 2008)

So the 5 year old I keep drew ALL over a wall with a pen. I am having him clean it but he is making no progress with all the whining and not really trying. How long should I expect him to work on it?


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I'm mean... at five years old, I'd make him work on it for a while. I'd ignore the whining, and make him spend another 10-15 minutes on trying to get it off... at least in one spot so he can see how hard it's going to be. Don't set a timer, just tell him you will wait til some of the ink comes off the wall before you let him take a break. If you set a time, he will just dilly dally til the timer goes off.

If he can get some of it off, I'd give him a break and have him get back to work on it later. If it's just not coming off at all, I'd give up on making him work at it.

If it's bad enough, you can have his parents come back this weekend and help you clean it. He's five.. he knows he's not allowed to write on someone else's wall. If he were two, I'd say you should have been watching him closer... but, at five, we assume he can handle having a pen without writing on your walls.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

I can't think of anything that would take ink off a wall that I'd let my almost 5 year old touch. I wouldn't make her clean it, I might have her watch me clean it. I would ask her where she draws with pens and remind her drawing elsewhere is a bad idea. The messes she can _help_ clean are ones that can be picked up or wiped up. Scrubbing walls is for older people who can safely use cleansers. On principal, I don't ever force helping because I don't want to undermine my DDs natural desire to help and participate.

If a child can't be trusted to remember to draw on paper with a pen, the pens should be out of reach. That's as far as we go with logical consequences "If you can't use something safely, you can't use it.". My DD's actually really good with using pens, paint, glue, scissors, glitter glue and other messy things appropriately, probably because using things appropriately means unlimited access.


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## EarthMamaToBe (Feb 19, 2008)

It's scrubable paint so the ink WILL come off with a little effort and a magic eraser. He is an EXTREMELY bright child who snuck the pen out of a drawer and took it to bed with him and drew on the wall, two throw pillows and a comforter.

His mother took away his computer time but did not stick with it for even one night so thus far there have been NO consequences.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

i would tell him he will clean until it is cleaned, and i would have him load the washer with the textiles he drew on. and while he's doing it i would try to talk about what motivated him to do it. i would also remove pens from drawers and put everything up high - major hassle i know, i had to do it for dd1 when she was 3. for her it was a territorial thing.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EarthMamaToBe* 
It's scrubable paint so the ink WILL come off with a little effort and a magic eraser. He is an EXTREMELY bright child who snuck the pen out of a drawer and took it to bed with him and drew on the wall, two throw pillows and a comforter.

His mother took away his computer time but did not stick with it for even one night so thus far there have been NO consequences.

I wouldn't let my almost 5 year old any where near a magic eraser. That's what we use to clean off ink too. We don't do punishment, so our DD doesn't sneak. I know you can't control that, but when kids have an adversarial relationship with adults because of punishments and threats you get more misbehavior that is retaliation because the kid's angry. I'd still try to foster a co-operative relationship with the child even though his parents choose the more oppositional type. I taught for 5 years and kids can respond really well to being treated with respect and an expectation of co-operation regardless or what they usually expect from adults.


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## EarthMamaToBe (Feb 19, 2008)

(Meant to quote SSH)

Why? There is nothing dangerous about a magic eraser.

I guess I don't understand why cleaning up your own mess is not a logical consequence for making a mess. What does he learn if I clean it up?

As far as sneaking he has access to pens and crayons and such but I call it sneaking b/c he took it to bed with him which he knows is not allowed.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

The magic eraser box says "CAUTION:keep out of reach of children...." in red letters. I let my DD dust, sweep, clean stuff with water, vinegar or baking soda ....... not chemicals or abrasives. The idea that a person 'needs' to learn from consequences or pay for their behavior by doing something is part of a punitive paradigm. He's already learned that you get annoyed or angry if he draws on the wall and he'll notice it has to be cleaned up whether he actually does it or not. He's also lost some of the trust you have in him. Kids notice that stuff, and those are the real natural consequences. A respectful, sincere "Please don't write on my walls. I don't like cleaning up extra stuff. It's a bad idea. Write on paper." will work. People don't have to be made to feel bad to get the idea that something is a bad choice and they shouldn't do it.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

I have Benjamin clean up his own messes when he has done stuff like this. He has been washing his doodles off our walls since he was about two and a half (with help). If it doesn't come off he forfeits his pocket money towards paying for a can of touch up paint and he helps me paint over the mess (as he did when we left our last house and after moving furniture discovered he had drawn a mural under his bed in permanent marker he had taken from my school bag, at the age of 4.5)

His own money didn't cover much (about 2%), but he gets about the equivalent of 25-50 US cents a week for doing extra small chores (apart from the basics of making his bed and keeping his room tidy, like if he helps to fold a load of wash, or rakes the leaves, or takes the trash out every morning on the way to school) so when he had to wipe out his savings, it was a lesson that stuck with him. Things cost money and we can't afford to replace those things whenever he feels destructive.

I believe if he is a child you watch, you should ask his parents to pay for a professional cleaning service, and/or replacement of the items destroyed. If I had left Benjamin with someone and he had done that, I would offer to pay (and then ask Benjamin to pay me back over time.)

And in the future, he doesn't get access to any pens or pencils or get any time in my house unsupervised until _I_ feel comfortable with his impulse control again.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

We have gloves, so I would be comfortable letting a child use a Magic Eraser.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

If I were watching someone else's kid, I'd ask their permission before having them use something that says it should be kept out of the reach of children.


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## Petie1104 (Oct 26, 2010)

I think that cleaning up the mess is the logical consequence. If I make a mess I clean it up. If my kid makes a mess, they clean it up, it's logical. A 5 yr. old is perfectly capable of understanding that I am not responsible for cleaning up his messes.

Now, here is where I differ, I help. Basically, we treat others how we want to be treated and if I accidentally make a mess I'd like for someone to help me out, even if it wasn't so accidental it's nice to have someone help me.


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## Petie1104 (Oct 26, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
If I were watching someone else's kid, I'd ask their permission before having them use something that says it should be kept out of the reach of children.

I agree. Though I would use a magic eraser while the child is helping by cleaning up with a regular sponge, I wouldn't have them use the magic eraser without the parent's permission.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ssh* 
The magic eraser box says "CAUTION:keep out of reach of children...." in red letters. I let my DD dust, sweep, clean stuff with water, vinegar or baking soda ....... not chemicals or abrasives. The idea that a person 'needs' to learn from consequences or pay for their behavior by doing something is part of a punitive paradigm. He's already learned that you get annoyed or angry if he draws on the wall and he'll notice it has to be cleaned up whether he actually does it or not. He's also lost some of the trust you have in him. Kids notice that stuff, and those are the real natural consequences. A respectful, sincere "Please don't write on my walls. I don't like cleaning up extra stuff. It's a bad idea. Write on paper." will work. People don't have to be made to feel bad to get the idea that something is a bad choice and they shouldn't do it.

I get what you're saying, but I do not see why the OP should have to pay with her time or her money to clean up destructive choices of a 5 year old child. He is not a baby. He is capable of donning rubber gloves and getting his own elbow grease into the mix to RECITFY his poor choices and restore justice.

When we make mistakes we should make it up to the harmed person by righting our wrongs, not just feeling bad about it. I don't think it does a child any favors to pretend that guiltiness and shame is enough to make things better. I think it's vital they see what actions they can take to make it right. Ideally they are a part of finding that solution, but sometimes they need a little help finding an appropriate action to resolve the consequences of their poor choices, ya know?


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
If I were watching someone else's kid, I'd ask their permission before having them use something that says it should be kept out of the reach of children.

Good point. I have no idea what a magic eraser is, but I think I want one.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hakeber* 
Good point. I have no idea what a magic eraser is, but I think I want one.

They do work well at cleaning walls, and cleaning fingerprints off appliances. And lots of things.


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## Petie1104 (Oct 26, 2010)

They are an abrasive type of sponge. Work wonders to take ink and nastiness off almost anything, but from what I understand they use a pretty alkaline mix to do this. Some kids have reactions to them such as rashes and such on their hands, and if they touch their faces with it it can cause a rash there too.


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## Mommel (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hakeber* 
Good point. I have no idea what a magic eraser is, but I think I want one.

Email me your new addy and I will send you one, sis. <3


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## Petie1104 (Oct 26, 2010)

http://urbanlegends.about.com/librar...raser-burn.htm

This explains it and says that the title "chemical burns" is misleading as there is no evidence of it being the alkalinity that caused it, but there are photos showing what can happen with the magic eraser.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

oh my







We've always just used dish soap and regular sponges here...probably why the ink never comes out so well.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

I think you should keep him at it until it's significantly faded all over. I don't think Magic Eraser, with gloves, is that toxic to use.

All cleaning materials, even non-toxic ones, are labeled, "Keep out of reach of children." This does not mean a small child cannot "help" with dishes. It means they must not have unsupervised access to it.

If I were not willing to have the child clean it (my DD drew on walls at three, and I felt she would be totally ineffective at cleaning it up), I would take away the writing implements for a set period of time... something like # of days the child is years old, I suppose, and then have a probation period, you only use them while I'm in the room.

I think at five, cleaning up his own mess would be more reasonable and effective. Good luck!


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

If I were watching someone else's kid, I'd ask their permission before having them use something that says it should be kept out of the reach of children.
ITA, but then... I wouldn't let someone else's kids have nuts at my house without permission, or watch almost any shows other than Sesame Street, or listen to any kind of pop music, without very explicit permission. People have very different limits on these things.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I think you should keep him at it until it's significantly faded all over. I don't think Magic Eraser, with gloves, is that toxic to use.

That's a fine choice to make for your own kids, but if the packaging says it isn't for children, then whether it "isn't that toxic to use" is up the child's parents.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Yeah, I clarified, I didn't realize it wasn't her son.

You know that soap is to be kept out of reach of children too, right?


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Just curious... how did it turn out? Did the ink come off?


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## EarthMamaToBe (Feb 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ssh* 
The magic eraser box says "CAUTION:keep out of reach of children...." in red letters. I let my DD dust, sweep, clean stuff with water, vinegar or baking soda ....... not chemicals or abrasives. The idea that a person 'needs' to learn from consequences or pay for their behavior by doing something is part of a punitive paradigm. He's already learned that you get annoyed or angry if he draws on the wall and he'll notice it has to be cleaned up whether he actually does it or not. He's also lost some of the trust you have in him. Kids notice that stuff, and those are the real natural consequences. A respectful, sincere "Please don't write on my walls. I don't like cleaning up extra stuff. It's a bad idea. Write on paper." will work. People don't have to be made to feel bad to get the idea that something is a bad choice and they shouldn't do it.

It says keep away from children like all sponges do because children can break off small pieces and swallow them. He is 5 he is not going to eat a sponge.

Learning from the consequences of his actions is EXACTLY what I WANT him to do.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
If I were watching someone else's kid, I'd ask their permission before having them use something that says it should be kept out of the reach of children.

Oh his Mom was totally cool with it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hakeber* 
Good point. I have no idea what a magic eraser is, but I think I want one.

They rock, no chemicals and the clean really well.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Petie1104* 
They are an abrasive type of sponge. Work wonders to take ink and nastiness off almost anything, but from what I understand they use a pretty alkaline mix to do this. Some kids have reactions to them such as rashes and such on their hands, and if they touch their faces with it it can cause a rash there too.

See next post

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Petie1104* 
http://urbanlegends.about.com/librar...raser-burn.htm

This explains it and says that the title "chemical burns" is misleading as there is no evidence of it being the alkalinity that caused it, but there are photos showing what can happen with the magic eraser.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
Just curious... how did it turn out? Did the ink come off?

He fussed and whined a bit and finally started really trying and saw how hard it was and apologized for drawing on the wall. I cleaned the rest off with rubbing alcohol after he left.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

e idea that a person 'needs' to learn from consequences or pay for their behavior by doing something is part of a punitive paradigm.
I disagree. Cleaning up your own mess is not a punishment. It's what people do when they make a mess.


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## EarthMamaToBe (Feb 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
I disagree. Cleaning up your own mess is not a punishment. It's what people do when they make a mess.

To my thinking there is a difference between "consequence" and "punishment"


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
I disagree. Cleaning up your own mess is not a punishment. It's what people do when they make a mess.

I didn't say they were. My issue with the magic eraser is it's not a natural cleaning object or agent. Even if the red patches aren't chemical burns but just rubbed off skin from micro-abrasives, that's still not an acceptable effect on tender skin. The things cause irritation on my fingers. They're locked up out of reach.

My DD does help clean up after herself. But I don't feel I need to make sure she learns some kind of lesson every time she does something annoying or messy. Our relationship is respectful and co-operative. She usually helps clean up other peoples messes just because she likes helping. Approaching misbehaviors with a calm "that was probably a bad idea" leads to conversations about what would have been a better choice. Since my parenting goal is for my DD to be able to make good choices most of the time. This noncoercive approach is more effective for us as a family.

I still feel that the idea that a person 'needs' to learn a lesson from consequences or pay for their behavior by doing something is part of a punitive paradigm. Often you get more misbehavior because the person gets angry or feels unfairly treated.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

A respectful, sincere "Please don't write on my walls. I don't like cleaning up extra stuff. It's a bad idea. Write on paper." will work.
Can we trade kids, please?


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## weezix (Feb 5, 2009)

i have a 3 year old artist in my family. i give her a scrubbie sponge and a spray bottle of water and let her scrub the crayon off the wall. crayon does come off. other things not so easily but i still ask her to do the best she can. then I would go and finish up with a Magic Eraser (because they really do take everything off the walls).

DD doesn't mind when she has to clean up her mess but I dont make it a big deal. Just...Oops, you drew on the wall...we best clean that up...do you want to come pick a sponge. Peice of cake.


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

i'm glad he finally put some effort into it.
i don't see it as an issue to have a child help clean up when they have made a mess. it is like telling your kid to pick up the paper they threw on the ground. why is it seen as punishment to take care of your space? you make a mess you clean it up. very simple.
if you are not wanting the kid to clean with a magic sponge then i still think they should put in some effort to clean up the mess. depending on the wall, i would even make up something with baking soda and vinegar so they could go at it.
sometimes i don't think children get how much work it is to keep a space tidy. he drew on the wall without maybe ever thinking this will be a PIA to clean off. now maybe he will think twice before doing it again. i mean 5 is still young and they do tend to have some impulse control, or maybe a better way to say it is that they do stuff without thinking what will happen after. so maybe now when he is with the OP he will at least not want to draw on the wall.

h


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## lonegirl (Oct 31, 2008)

Here is the info on magic eraser
http://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov...ds&id=16003386


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## Panonim (Nov 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lonegirl* 
Here is the info on magic eraser
http://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov...ds&id=16003386

Yep, formaldehyde. Ick. Although it does say "Old Product" and I don't see any info listed there for the "new product".

Just an FYI, Norwex makes a chemical-free version of the magic eraser which DID work perfectly on non-washable marker vs. kitchen table for me.


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