# How far do you take it, with your pro-circ DH? Am I over the top? Crazy?



## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

So...Monday, we find out if this baby of mine is another girl...or a huge storm brewing (boy). I would be so glad for a boy, what an exciting change! Almost scary, because I'm just so used to girls, sisters, etc...so, thinking of a little prince of my own, makes me heart flutter...but lately, I've been really hoping that this baby will also be a girl.....because if we have a boy, the fight of the century will ensue at our home.

DH lets me make 99% of the parenting decisions when it comes to no-vax, how long to breast feed, choosing doctors, healing with rememdies, etc...EVERYTHING, he gives me his opinion, I tell him what I've researched, he says "Wow, I didn't know that, it sounds like you've really really picked this issue apart and your view makes sense" and supports me 100% in doing what it is, that my research has proven to me (and him) to be the best way. In the beginning, he was 100% pro vax....it took a conversation of about 10 minutes, him listening carefully the whole time, for me to change his mind...he's really open and receptive to information and is so completely rational, I love him for it. He really gets it, he's a great father and 100% on board with all of the gentle ways I've learned about over the last few years. Awesome awesome awesome.

Until the talk about circ. Brick wall. I'm so so SO glad, that DD was a girl...because I was not in any way ready to enforce a no-circ policy a year ago. Having a child and just hanging around here more...has brought me from really not thinking that circ is necessary...to 100%, stone cold, absolutely against it for my child and anyone elses who asks me what I think about it. I consider it to be genital mutilation, I think it's wrong and I won't do it to my son, period. DH, REFUSES to budge on this issue. THe information, reasoning and cold hard facts, that he usually hangs on every word, really digests and takes to heart....means nothing to him. He has stated that he absolutely does not care what I say, what I have researched, there is no way that, if he has a son, this child will be left intact. No way. Not up for discussion, not a topic for consideration, doesn't care if I'm this boys mother...won't do it. Won't even talk about it.

I'm at a loss. Over the last couple of weeks, I have asked myself "How important is this to me, how far am I willing to take this" - and I've found that my view has not softened...it has hardened completely. At this point, I'm thinking that I would take my kids and move in with my mother, before I would slice at my sons penis....but then the thought that hits me right after that is: "Are you crazy woman, you would leave your loving home, abandon your wonderful marriage and hinder your childrens relationship with a loving, super involved father over this?" - and start second guessing myself.

I know, that on Monday, there is a 50% chance that it could be a girl....but there is also a 50% chance that it will be a boy....and if it is a boy, I know that as soon as we walk out and get into the car, he is going to say it: "It's not a discussion, don't even bring it up, please, I don't want to talk about it, we're going to circ" - and my stomach just turns.

He's a loving, wonderful man. He's a better father than I ever could have dreamed for, for my kids. He is completely supportive of my natural, gentle choices....but won't budge on this. He is circ'd, his son will be circ'd....this ist he end of the story for him.

WWYD? Am I placing too much value on my sons foreskin? Would you budge? I know I have until November, to divise a better plan than leaving or "duking it out" or whatever else...so, I know that I don't have to do something now....but, I'm asking if my feeling of taking this as far as it needs to go, is crazy. Some of you mamas...who have all intact boys....if your DH had pushed it to a point where he was basically like "there is no way in hell we're not circ'ing" - would you have folded? I think the way he sees this, he supports me 100% in everything, all the natural, gentle choices we've made for our DD....and he should be able to have this one little thing. BUT, I don't see that as fair, because I haven't made any choices with regard to our DDs health, that weren't first run by him...and EVERY time a decision has been made, he's been 100% on board, because the information I've shared with him, has been compelling to the point, that it's changed his view on the subject. So, it's not like I'm making all of these wacky decisions, that he thinks are crazy and is against, but he lets me have my way because he sees how much it means to me, or something like that. MY preferences BECAME his preferences due to the research proving that my preferences fit our lifestyle and values...and his, revealed for what they were (things like vax, spanking, mainstream stuff that he just took as "the way you do it" because everyone else doesn) did not fit our value system at all.

So. I don't know. Sorry I'm so longwinded, it's something I've struggled with all my life...but you get the point of my post: *How far do you take it? HOW MUCH should it mean to me?* Ladies, he will NOT budge...he won't. I know he won't. He never says no to me...in our marriage, in general, 95% of the time, he either agress with me after a discussion, or lets me have my way becuse he just hates saying no and because I don't ask for a lot. He's a loving man to me, he genuinely loves to see me happy and jsut rarely says no...but when he does, it's because he means it, it's because it's important to him and he just. won't. do. it. I'm so conflicted over this, because he doesn't see the violence in this act, like I do. I mean...we have a zero, zero violence home here. We don't harm any creatures...spiders are lucky, we don't kill them, little bugs we find here and there...we live in harmony with them...our doggies, are our mascots and have gentle, loving lives, we live for them...ALL creatures of this earth, especially our DD, are treated with gentle love and respect...so I really didn't think it would be hard to convince him, on the premise that it is violent and unecessary, that we shouldn't circ. And yet, here I am. What, oh what, to do?


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## benj (Jun 4, 2009)

no, i don't think you are over the top. you said that you present information to your husband and then he will usually change his mind or be open to your idea...so you didn't do anything different with this subject, he just reacted/will react differently. i don't understand the whole "look like daddy" thing at all. i think a lot of fathers are pyschologically pressured into doing it and feel that they need to create some sort of "bond" with their son. he probably does not want to harm his kids, just wants to do what he thinks is best. if he likes it, then he assumes his kids will like it (however, most circumcised guys have never experienced the alternative.) i sincerely doubt that a boy will ever look down at his penis and think "i hope daddy looks just like me." i was left intact as an infant, and when my sons came along we actually looked into circumcision because we didn't want to leave any options out. however, them looking like me was the last thing on my mind. i really hope your husband has a change of heart. there was a forum that i frequented as a teenager, and still do. a lot of teenage boys feel violated that they were circumcised. their parents never brought up the subject with them and they are too embarrassed to bring up their disappointment with them so their parents will never know. they are very clear, they like being circumcised physically but do not like that it was done without their consent.

edit: yes, ask him why. listen to what he has to say.


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## Fellow Traveler (Jan 8, 2008)

You are certainly not crazy and you need to do what you must but have you even asked him why it's so important? Perhaps that will be a start and you can work through it from there.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Oh I know his reasons...he was clear on that. "I'm circ'd, son is circ'd, the end" - no amount of information will change this for him. Even tried showing him a video of circ...."You think I don't realize it's painful, I DO. but I went through it and I don't remember it or have a horrible feeling from it and I know my son wouldn't either" - I told him that not only is it completely medically unecessary, but there are important functions of the penis lost, when a boy loses his foreskin "My penis is fine, I like my penis, it does everything it's supposed to do" - I also think he thinks that it would be weird for our son, in the locker room, with girls, etc. and he doesn't want him to have to go through that, feeling "different".

SO, he acknowledges that it is for COMPLETELY cosmetic reasons. This man, who won't kill a spider in his bed, who practices "catch and release" with ticks he finds on the dogs (even though his mother suffers terribly with Lyme)...this man who I have never seen injur any creature...who loves nature and living things and gentle life more than anything....is telling me, that he is going to slice at the genitals of a days old infant, ofr purely cosmetic reasons. I just...I don't have the words to express what a disappointment this is.

He has made his reasons known. He is not vague on this, he is not wavering...it's not a fear thing, where he's just fearful for his son being teased or something like that...he won't budge, because he beleives that he is RIGHT. He believes, that circumcision is *right*. THAT is the trouble here. It's not a case of, he just needs to hear the right information, or, if I can show him, that his penis DOESN'T have all it's features, maybe he'll agree...he really and truly believes that this is the right thing to do. He's solid, 100% in this.

That's where my stomach ache is coming from. I'm filled with dread. THe prospect of having a little boy cub of my own, the idea that I could be the mother of a boy, something so exciting....has a major shadow cast over it.

So...I'm not crazy, to think that I would like, I mean, ACTUALLY take my kids and leave? If it came down to it? I love my life...I love my DH. But I LOOOVE my kids...and can't do it. I can't circ a boy.


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## benj (Jun 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
Oh I know his reasons...he was clear on that. "I'm circ'd, son is circ'd, the end" - no amount of information will change this for him. Even tried showing him a video of circ...."You think I don't realize it's painful, I DO. but I went through it and I don't remember it or have a horrible feeling from it and I know my son wouldn't either" - I told him that not only is it completely medically unecessary, but there are important functions of the penis lost, when a boy loses his foreskin "My penis is fine, I like my penis, it does everything it's supposed to do" - I also think he thinks that it would be weird for our son, in the locker room, with girls, etc. and he doesn't want him to have to go through that, feeling "different".

the problem with that reasoning is that if your hypothetical son does have a problem with it, you will probably never know. he probably won't tell you, ask, or bring it up. he will basically be silenced because of the embarassment of the subject. most circumcised guys have never experienced the alternative so they have no personal experience as to which is better. the locker room thing is a myth. as far as the "feeling different" thing, i was born in 1986 so yes, i felt a little different then (but never to the point where i wished i had been circumcised), but since infant circumcision is steadily declining it is not such a big deal. i'd say if you literally can't get out of it, explain to your hypothetical son when he gets older why it was done. explain that it was not something you agreed to. but it sounds like this subject or the act of circumcising you hypothetical son would severely damage the relationship between you and your husband. i'd also assume that if you've explained explicitly to your husband how upsetting it is to you and he still won't change, then it goes a little deeper than cosmetic reasoning...that's a front, there is something deeper.


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## Fellow Traveler (Jan 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
Oh I know his reasons...he was clear on that. "I'm circ'd, son is circ'd, the end" - no amount of information will change this for him. Even tried showing him a video of circ...."You think I don't realize it's painful, I DO. but I went through it and I don't remember it or have a horrible feeling from it and I know my son wouldn't either" - I told him that not only is it completely medically unecessary, but there are important functions of the penis lost, when a boy loses his foreskin "My penis is fine, I like my penis, it does everything it's supposed to do" - I also think he thinks that it would be weird for our son, in the locker room, with girls, etc. and he doesn't want him to have to go through that, feeling "different".

Ok, so it's the standard song and dance. There are a number of posters here that have gone through what you may about to be going through so you're in good company. I haven't (I am actually a guy myself) but I know we have experience with this. As focused as he appears on this, time will change that. I think more than the other issues this is one that he'll have to slowly come around to either accept or at the very least tolerate. Have you discussed the issue with your Pedi or OB? If they're friendly it maybe useful to discuss it between the three of you.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
So...I'm not crazy, to think that I would like, I mean, ACTUALLY take my kids and leave? If it came down to it? I love my life...I love my DH. But I LOOOVE my kids...and can't do it. I can't circ a boy.

I don't think you're are 'crazy' to want to protect your son, you're his mother, that's your job but I can't, I won't, tell you that you should do that. There are ways to protect him without going that far. For example, just get him out of the hospital intact. They won't circumcise him without your approval so that's the first step. You should make sure your OB and Pedi know your position and make sure you're the one taking him to those appointments. In the worst case this will make it difficult for your husband to do it behind your back which, from your description, doesn't sound like something he'll ultimately do.

Hang in there hopefully other posters will add good thoughts to this thread.


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## calngavinsmom (Feb 19, 2003)

Oh Momma







s. I'm sorry your dh is being such a PITA. But I don't think this is an issue you can budge on, because if you do, it will be your *son* who pays for it. If you stand up for him and just say no, what is the worst thing that will happen? You need to sign the consent form, not just your dh. There is no reason for you to leave. Just say no. Everytime your dh says it will happen, tell him it will NOT happen. If he is not willing to make a responsible, informed decision for your son, he should not get to make one at all.

If any REAL reason comes out from your dh, let us know, we can help you argue it. But until then stand firm, say no, it WILL NOT HAPPEN.

Good luck on Monday, I hope for you it is a boy because they are truely wonderful cuddly little creatures(I was in the same boat as you, our sons are the first boys in the family for a generation).

Take care!
Tara


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

You're a good mama! But take a deep breath right now. Here are a couple of links for YOU to read. Do NOT show your dh:

http://www.noharmm.org/feminist.htm

I especially like this quote from that link:
"Today, it is often the more passive, compliant mother who will allow her son to be circumcised, acquiescing to the demands of medical professionals, husband, family or other outside sources - probably against her better judgment. The more self-determined, confident mother is more likely to insist that her son remain intact, since she has the strength to withstand the outside pressures of a circumcision oriented society. ***

Therefore, as mothers the time is long overdue for us to stand up and demand - We're not going to take this any more!

We won't have our newborn, parturient days ripped asunder by our infants' screams. We are through allowing our infants to be torn from our arms, strapped down, genitals slaughtered, returned to us intensely traumatized or comatose, our own feelings of violation belittled."

And another link for just YOU to read:

http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

Hopefully, of course, it won't come to you leaving the marriage over this issue. But good for you for being prepared to "go the distance" for your son if necessary.
And read my sig.


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## ShadowMoon (Oct 18, 2006)

My dp wouldn't budge on the issue either. We could never have a calm, rational discussion over it, he was hung up on purely cosmetic arguments, and it became a real sore spot in our relationship. It still is. We kept our son intact, only because I put my foot down. I knew he would never go behind my back and get it done and I made all the people around me know I wanted him intact. He still resents me for it (we don't talk about it, but I know), but I know in my heart it was the right thing to do.


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## Sasharna (Nov 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *benj* 
...you've explained explicitly to your husband how upsetting it is to you and he still won't change, then it goes a little deeper than cosmetic reasoning...that's a front, there is something deeper.

Yes, this. If he thinks circumcision is "right" then there should be no problem in telling you why.

AverysMomma, you come across here as such a gentle person. I don't understand why your husband shuts down and will not discuss this with you.

I guess if my DP had behaved in this way, my response would be something along the lines of, "Love, I can tell there's something about this issue that strikes a chord deep inside you. I want to know what it is and see where you're coming from. I can't accept you building a wall to keep me out on this issue, not just because the issue is important to me, but because _you're_ important to me. Our relationship has always been about being completely open with each other... what's going on?"

And, no, I don't think you're going too far or feeling too much. It's not just about circumcision. It's also about the closeness and understanding you share with your life partner. I know my preferences aren't everybody's, but in my relationship with DP, brickwalling just doesn't happen and if it ever did, it would break the other one's heart.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Thank you so much everyone, for your replies.

I think the deeper issue may lay in the fact that in his teen years, he was really...he felt different. He had horrible acne, that made him really really shy, he suffered a lot with feeling shy, different, wanting to just sort of "disappear" in the crowd. I always thought he was adorable..but he hated the way he looked.

Now, he's this incredibly handsome man...who was just sort of a late bloomer, in growing into his "man shape" and looking more manly...but even now that he does, he wears the emotional scars of his youth. He is very much more a "nature" guy than a "people" guy. We have very few friends and spend all of our time as a pack, deep in the woods, or on a lonely little rocky beach, loving being with each other...we prefer not being around people...but again, when he HAS to be...it's still sort of a "blend in" type of thing for him, hates being noticed, doesn't want small talk with strangers, etc. SO, I KNOW that this feeling of his, about circ, is probably another result of his youth spent trying to "blend in". So. That's that. He would never admit that was a part of it...but I think that it is. I fear that, the amount of work he needs to do, to reconcile some of the emotional suffering he went through as a teen, won't happen for a long time...too late for my hypothetical son, you know?

We don't have a ped or an OB. I was with a midwife last pregnancy, this pregnancy am about 95% UP (unassisted pregnancy) and will also UC (unassisted chidbirth). I have a backup midwife...but she is not a person he would have that conversation with. Our DDs doctor (a General Practitioner, MD, or something) is....a universal blessing...just so crunchy, so supportive. He's a super educated guy and stays ontop of the latest information...he doesn't just swallow what drug reps tell him, or what the concensus in the medical community is...he's completely supportive of our parenting chioces, including our decision not to vax and is always giving me more info on natural parenting choices and resources. He's awesome. Maybe, just maybe, DH would talk to him...but he's never met the man. I don't know how that would go.

Yeah...a part of me feels like "Okay, I will let me husband do this and I will hold my son and hate myself the whole time, but I will support him and will explain to him later on that I didn't support it but had to do it...." but then I just think...man, you know. Ugh. It's just, I don't do ANYTHING with my kid that goes against my gut. If I'm thinking of hating myself, for something that I decide to put my kid through...WHY would I do that thing? I'm a principled person. I have a few, little rules, that I let guide my life. I'm not a crazy person, who lives a regimented, in-between-the-lines type of life...there are just a few guidlines that are REALLY important to me....not harming my kids is one of them.

What a crazy choice to have to make. We're not mainstream people. We're not "go with the crowd" types. We hate the crowd! We don't like doctors, hospitals, etc. We don't like medicine and heal ourselves naturally from home, we don't like law men, tax men, doctors...the whole nine. If it reeks of mainstream, it probably didn't come from our house, you know? It's just stunning to me, that he could be so irrational about this. I think, honestly, that he thinks it's gross. I think he thinks, an ucirc'd penis, is really gross.









It doesn't look gross to me. It looks like a penis, to me.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
Yeah...a part of me feels like "Okay, I will let me husband do this and I will hold my son and hate myself the whole time, but I will support him and will explain to him later on that I didn't support it but had to do it...." but then I just think...man, you know. Ugh. It's just, I don't do ANYTHING with my kid that goes against my gut.

Please, please, please don't even let this thought cross your mind. Please, please, please, stand up for your son, whatever it takes.

And I'm quoting this again in case you missed it the first time:

"Today, it is often the more passive, compliant mother who will allow her son to be circumcised, acquiescing to the demands of medical professionals, husband, family or other outside sources - probably against her better judgment. The more self-determined, confident mother is more likely to insist that her son remain intact, since she has the strength to withstand the outside pressures of a circumcision oriented society."

http://www.noharmm.org/feminist.htm

Get strength, mama. We're here to help you.

And read my signature, again.


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## FernG (Feb 14, 2008)

Oh, mama. Your DH sounds so much like mine. I'm so thankful to have married a reasonable man! My DH really listens to research and makes up his own mind. We had a girl, but he was 100% for cir also. I knew that the best way to get through to him was to let him feel like he had control. I read so much and then pass the info on to him, so he sometimes feels like he's not really making his own decisions. I didn't let the issue go but I only talked about it casually. I knew in my heart that if I let him circ our son, our marriage would be permanently damaged. If I couldn't change his mind, I was going to let the issue drop BUT I WAS NOT going to let the circ happen. Then I was just going to take it day by day after the birth. Since then, DH has come around and believes that circ is gentile mutilation, but it took a long time of me only occasionally bringing up info about complications- like meatal stinosis, news cases about botched circ, etc. Thinking about loosing the entire penis or having future penile surgery is pretty horrifying. The first thing that got through to DH was thinking about choosing elective, cosmetic surgery and then having to live with botched results that would have never occurred naturally. I didn't draw those conclusions for DH - I would say, "Oh no. Here's another case where a baby was circed and then... So sad." Over time, DH thought that is was an unnecessary risk. Now he thinks it's immoral, which is tough b/c now he has to face the fact that his mother and doctors stole something from us.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

And please read this thread. I know it's long, but it's important.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...t+circumcision


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

I'd stop talking about it at all. It might eventually percolate through his brain if you leave him alone. Then call his bluff when the baby is born. Write no circ all over the diapers and onesies and do not let him out of your sight and let your dh be the crazy one who tries to steal a baby to have him circumcised. I told my dh that I would divorce him and not put his name on the birth certificate before I let it happen to my baby. I was deadly serious. Then I stopped talking about it. It was his issue with his penis and he is an adult and he needs to be the one who gets over his own feelings. Mutilating his son to avoid unpleasant feelings was simply not an option.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *benj*
i'd say if you literally can't get out of it, explain to your hypothetical son when he gets older why it was done. explain that it was not something you agreed to. but it sounds like this subject or the act of circumcising you hypothetical son would severely damage the relationship between you and your husband.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma*
Yeah...a part of me feels like "Okay, I will let me husband do this and I will hold my son and hate myself the whole time, but I will support him and will explain to him later on that I didn't support it but had to do it...." but then I just think...man, you know. Ugh. It's just, I don't do ANYTHING with my kid that goes against my gut. If I'm thinking of hating myself, for something that I decide to put my kid through...WHY would I do that thing? I'm a principled person. I have a few, little rules, that I let guide my life. I'm not a crazy person, who lives a regimented, in-between-the-lines type of life...there are just a few guidlines that are REALLY important to me....not harming my kids is one of them.

I totally disagree with benj here that this is something you might "have" to do to save your marriage, and I think your gut is telling you that, too.

You can't let him do this to your son. Your son is not your property, and he's not your husband's, either -- you can't use him as a bargaining chip to save your marriage when you know, fundamentally, in your gut, that circumcision is wrong. You are your son's guardian and you have to guard him from those who would do him harm, even if it's your dh.









I think you're right that your husband, who by your account already has self-image issues, is projecting onto your son some of the fear and anguish that he felt about being different because of his acne.

And compounding that is the fact that he is in such denial about the pain and harms of circumcision - understandably, as it is incredibly painful for men to admit that they were victimized as babies and their parents didn't protect them from it, and that their penises may function less than optimally as a result.

So what your dh is doing is the equivalent of putting his hands over his ears and going LA LA LA I'm not listening, because as long as I don't listen to you and insist my son be hurt like I was hurt, then I don't have to face my own feelings, doubts, insecurities, and pain. I'M FINE I'M FINE I'M FINE and if my son is cut he will be JUST FINE like I am FINE.

But he's an adult, and what you're looking at here is a trade-off between going along with what your dh wants because otherwise your dh may suffer uncomfortable emotions, and protecting your son from physical agony (however short-lived) and lifelong physical disability.

As I see it, you have to be the whole adult here in more ways than one -- you need to listen to your dh's feelings, acknowledge and validate them, show him how much you love him physically, emotionally, and spiritually just the way he is, BUT you also must stay strong and protect your son from the physical harm your dh wants to inflict so he doesn't have to work through or face his own inner turmoil.

You have to stand strong. Just stop thinking of circumcision as a "choice" and one you "have" to make. If this baby is another girl, would you contemplate even for one nanosecond cutting off part of her genitals for any reason whatsoever? No, you wouldn't. And this is EXACTLY the same situation. Your son's foreskin is just as functional and just as important as yours or your daughter's (your foreskin is your clitoral hood) and in fact much, much bigger area-wise.

So you don't have to persuade your dh to see things your way, because when you do that you're buying into the reasoning that circumcision is a valid choice for babies (which it never, ever is, whether they're boys or girls). You need to listen to him and acknowledge his feelings and emotions, but you also need to take your wind out of his sails and stop trying to argue with him or persuade him.

Instead you need to believe in your heart that your son will be whole, just as your daughter is whole, and that nothing will change that until your son's guardianship passes into his own hands. Then you will have the courage and strength to protect him from what is really a cultural psychosis that your dh is exhibiting.

(Oh, and totally gross about catch-and-release for ticks -- they should all be exterminated from the face of the earth!!!)


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## benj (Jun 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky* 
I totally disagree with benj here that this is something you might "have" to do to save your marriage, and I think your gut is telling you that, too.

just to clarify, that's not what i meant. i said circumcising would damage the relationship. i only wrote the first part because she said she felt like she couldn't get out of it...and that it would still cause problems even if she did what her husband wanted.

"the act of *circumcising* you hypothetical son *would severely damage the relationship between you and your husband*."


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## Fellow Traveler (Jan 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
Thank you so much everyone, for your replies.

We don't have a ped or an OB. I was with a midwife last pregnancy, this pregnancy am about 95% UP (unassisted pregnancy) and will also UC (unassisted chidbirth). I have a backup midwife...but she is not a person he would have that conversation with. Our DDs doctor (a General Practitioner, MD, or something) is....a universal blessing...just so crunchy, so supportive. He's a super educated guy and stays ontop of the latest information...he doesn't just swallow what drug reps tell him, or what the concensus in the medical community is...he's completely supportive of our parenting chioces, including our decision not to vax and is always giving me more info on natural parenting choices and resources. He's awesome. Maybe, just maybe, DH would talk to him...but he's never met the man. I don't know how that would go.

It doesn't look gross to me. It looks like a penis, to me.

This makes things a little easier on you and a little harder for him because you'd have to make a special arrangements to do it.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Stop arguing or trying to sell it. If it comes up be calm and centered and 100% sure. Your son will not be cut. Period. Paragraph. End.Of.Discussion.

You will not allow it. You will not schedule it. You will not sign off on it. You will NOT ALLOW IT.

And stick to it.

-Angela


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

Whenever someone you know to be clear thinking and logical starts putting up walls and shutting down discussions, it's because there are issues and complexes that need to be dealt with.

The locker room thing is a myth. Matching daddy? I'm intact and my father is intact but I never knew that until my son was born and my father asked me if we circ'd him.

Disgusting? Does he find eyelids disgusting? Disgusting is a strong word and why does he feel that way about another man's penis?


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## beru (Nov 19, 2007)

My son is intact and my husband was supportive. I sometimes wonder what I would have done if he insisted on circing. What you are describing is like a nightmare. I am so sorry. I bet this will not be a popular post but I actually would consider circing my son if my DH insisted. Considering it and allowing it to happen are two different things, though. I can't know what I would really do in the end because, deep down, I do believe circ is wrong no matter what.

This is all hypothetical...I would tell my husband I will consider it if he agreed to research circ methods and anesthesia*, if we interview experienced physicians in order to find one who will do it in his office with low lighting, without a cold hard circumstraint, with the most effective anesthesia possible. I would insist that both of us be present and it be done 1 or 2 weeks after birth. I would also tell him that if we go through with this it will definitely damage our marriage and he should consider going to marriage counseling with me. That is not a threat because I also believe if I forbid the circumcision and denied him his choice that could also damage our marriage.

I have a wonderful family with my DH. And it sounds like you do too, with your family. Maybe it is worth a difficult compromise to maintain that. I am not sure it would work, though. Would the trust in the relationship be irreparably damaged? If that is the case with your DH and you, then you do have to say no. It is then a no-win situation for your DH and you and at least by saying no, your son "wins".

*I know even the best local anesthetic methods do not eliminate the pain of circumcision.


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## BoringTales (Aug 1, 2006)

I wouldn't abandon my family, my husband, and separate my kids from a loving father over this one issue.

Besides that, if you do separate, he'll have visitation rights...unsupervised visitation rights. He's the father and perfectly able to sign medical concent forms. See where I'm going with this?


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## Amila (Apr 4, 2006)

I would threaten divorce and tell him I was getting a lawyer and that I was going to pursue full custody of the kids (full well knowing that he probably would not divorce me and would give in) because I am vindictive like that. I would never.ever.ever let my son get circ'd.


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## boat rocker (Apr 25, 2009)

that is what many men (and women who have bought into this patriarchal control nonsense, unfortunately want you to believe...that you are CRAZY. and 'over the top' when following your wisdom (and that wisdom that has been here for eons...). they want you to think you are 'hysterical'. do you know where men derived that word from...hyster=womb/uterus, i believe (as in hysterectomy) & so being hysterical means you are irrational. an irrational nutty woman. because...you are a woman. BLAH!!!!!! i say.

amila, i totally feel your stance on this. and i support you, mama. maybe i'm not one to give input here as i'm single mama twice over now but you know...when it comes to things like this i do not stand down. it is not an option to me. and especially not for a man who most likely is an ignorant pig on other subjects as well within a family/relationship w/ me and the children. so. yeah. with that being said. i support you.

actually you know what. i AM one to give input here. and this and many other reasons are WHY i refuse to settle for b.s. within ANY relationship since i conceived my son. cxing is b.s. and as the mother there is NO WAY i'd bow down and give in to having my son cut & hurt like that.

if you have to threaten divorce to get hubby to comply, then maybe the marriage isn't even built on good stuff...which i think you are coming to see. but...since you are married to this guy (where i was NOT married to mine, thank the goddess), that presents a few issues that i did not/do not have. i can't agree with saving a marriage outweighs the fight to circ or not circ a son. to me, that is just nuts. to me, the marriage sucks obviously and it isn't worth making that sacrifice with my son. i think you are on the right track, mama. dh needs to edumacate himself or get a clue. or get busy loading up his own uhaul truck, IMHO. after he gets up from being kicked to the curb.

sorry. but i just don't go for this sort of nonsense w/ men. 'father' of my children or NOT. i'd much rather hold the reins than deal w/ their crap.

oh mama...hugs. that's all i can offer...is my life. my experiences and my stance. which is actually pretty huge if you think about it. we are changing the world...one relationship & one child at a time.


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## Rico'sAlice (Mar 19, 2006)

I'm not sure where you live but it sounds pretty crunchy. If he's worried about your son blending in it might help to find out the percentage of boys being circed currently in your area. Maybe if DH knew how common it is to leave babies intact where you live (if that is indeed the case) it might make him worry less about it being an issue for DS. Does he know the national statistics already? It's not like intact babes are a tiny minority here anymore. And what is DS ever wanted to go to boarding school in Italy for a year (just for example) he would really not fit in at all being circumsized. Yes, that is a weird unlikely example, but so is your DHs reasoning, so it might make sense to him.

Anyway, as far as "how far to take it" think what you would do if he wanted to circ your DD?
My DH (German, intact) always made it clear to me that if I wanted to circ we would NOT be having children at all.
Also, the way the tide is turning it seems a lot more likely/eaisier that 10-15 years (or 6mo or 2 yrs!) from now your DH will come around and "forgive" you for opposing him on this rather than that your son will not think it was a big deal and not care that you let this be done to him.


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## RoseDuperre (Oct 15, 2007)

I would 1. Make him give his reasons, and when he does (the locker room, HIV, whatever), 2. You respond accordingly with literature (links, books, resources) to respond to each point. ESPECIALLY if it's the locker room argument - nationwide it is absolutely an average of 50/50, and in the West the number of boys circed now is as low as 30%!

But then, if he is still so completely unwilling, then step 3 is THIS:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Stop arguing or trying to sell it. If it comes up be calm and centered and 100% sure. Your son will not be cut. Period. Paragraph. End.Of.Discussion.

You will not allow it. You will not schedule it. You will not sign off on it. You will NOT ALLOW IT.

And stick to it.

Period.

Also, something that really stood out from your OP is this:

Quote:

I think the way he sees this, he supports me 100% in everything, all the natural, gentle choices we've made for our DD....and *he should be able to have this one little thing.*
Um, NO. This is not some "thing" that he gets to have. (I'm not attacking you, I know you were just trying to describe his sentiments.) Getting to play football is a thing he gets to have. Sharing his favorite books. _Irreparably violating his son's body is not his right._


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## tallulahma (Jun 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RoseDuperre* 
Um, NO. This is not some "thing" that he gets to have. (I'm not attacking you, I know you were just trying to describe his sentiments.) Getting to play football is a thing he gets to have. Sharing his favorite books. _Irreparably violating his son's body is not his right._









:

no. nope. no way. not happening.

i would leave my dh before allowing him to physically mutilating my child. it is a monstrous act & i would treat it as such.


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## robertandenith (Apr 1, 2008)

My husband was set that he wanted to have his son cut. But I was set that I wanted my son to make that decision himself. I was ready to fight with my DH and if I had to leave him I would've done it. Thankfully, he saw how dead set I was and decided to watch the videos (Penn & Teller bullshit circ video) to see the other side and what was the 'big deal'.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

You know...having been away for a few hours and thinking about this...I'm going to let it go. I'm not going to allow this to be an issue, because after searching my gut, I really don't think it is an issue...not MY issue anyhow. If my hypothetical son, wants to cut off a piece of his penis, I support him 100% in doing so. If he thinks, that the "extra" skin he has hanging onto his penis needs to go...fine. But he will be a rational, thinking, fully informed young adult, if and when he makes that choice.

It is simply not for my husband or I to decide, if my son should or should not lose a part of his penis, which SERVES A PURPOSE...though, many men do "just fine" without it. So..okay, from a functionality viewpoint, neither way is a catostrophic, sex-life ender...there is no health reason TO do it...so...it will be left up to my son.

That's my story, my reason and I'm sticking to it. Here's another thing I know about my husband: I doubt, highly, that he would even invest the time it would take, to track down a doctor, make the appointment, etc. Our sons doctor, who is currently my DDs doctor, won't do it. He would have to find someone, this "someone" would want to know why it is his wife delivered this boy at home, with no one in attendance....the list of explanations, paperwork, etc is long and getting longer the more I think about this and I simply cannot see him doing any of that. He HATES that kind of stuff more than anything. ANYTHING.

I really am going to stop talking about this. I KNOW he doesn't want to talk about this, he knows how upset I am about this and he is a GOOD husband...we have a GOOD marriage..and I know that while he is kicking and screaming now, that he knows I am serious about this and I simply cannot see him doing something with one of our children that I am this uncomfortable about. He wouldn't.

It struck me that he wouldn't do that, when one of you PPs said something about, even if I left, "he would have unsupervised visits" - I realized, really thinking about that, that I would not leave a good marriage over that, and that he would not wreck a good marriage for that, for circ. So. That's that.

He really is a good man. I think this issue comes down to his unresolved body image issues and emotional scarring from teenage years being projected onto our son...I think that it is manifesting in this way, in regards to circ, but I think that it is enough about something other than circ, that when it came down to it, it wouldn't be important enough to him....relaly thinking this out....I thinkyou guys are right, it's NOT about circ, it's about his son being "different"...and that idea, is not enough. He has stopped short on issues that were more important to him that this, in order to avoid upsetting me...and this would MORE than upset me.

I know him....I know he wouldn't do that. It might make him mad, not to do it...but you know what, I don't remember who it was that said this...but it WOULD permanently damage my marriage. I could never look at him the same way, if he hurt our son like that. Ever. I couldn't look at myself in the mirror the same way again, if I stayed in a marriage, that made me feel like I had to fold to something I find so evil and so wrong at it's most basic level.

So. Thank you all so much for throwing all of these ideas out at me...it made me think about angles of this that I hadn't before...because I was so wrapped up in the emotional issues, how truamatic it is, etc.

But you know what I thought of?? How he was telling me one day, that he thinks it's awful for people to pierce babies ears. I believe the specific language he used was "Our DD can get her ears pierced, when she tells us it's what she wants...why would we permanently modify her body, before she asked us to?" - and that's over something SO "normal" as ear piercing. SO....that's my new stance, because that's the part of this arguement that is the least emotionally charged and the MOST important: We don't modify bodies, before a person is old enough to ask for it to be done. Period. Damage, truama, botched jobs, loss of feeling, pain, estrogen receptors...none of that is even relevant any more, so far as I'm concerned. Not my choice, not DHs choice...not happening, period.


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## KaylaBeanie (Jan 27, 2009)

I take the cake when it comes to crazy with partners.

I told my (now) ex that he'd literally have to kill me and pry my son from my cold dead arms before the (hypothetical at the time) baby would be circ'd. Then I'd come back and haunt said ex until he went crazy and killed himself. Uhh...yeah







I think I got the point across!


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## major_mama11 (Apr 13, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShadowMoon* 
My dp wouldn't budge on the issue either. We could never have a calm, rational discussion over it, he was hung up on purely cosmetic arguments, and it became a real sore spot in our relationship. It still is. We kept our son intact, only because I put my foot down. I knew he would never go behind my back and get it done and I made all the people around me know I wanted him intact. He still resents me for it (we don't talk about it, but I know), but I know in my heart it was the right thing to do.

This is our situation too. DS is intact, but I know DH resents me for it by the snarky remarks he makes to DS sometimes, as in "Sorry, your mama wanted you to look like an alien"









In our case, it made it easier in that our midwives don't circ, and neither does the family doc we use. We would have had to find a new dr to get ds circed. Also, I make all medical appointments for the kids myself, and DH is upset, but not upset enough that he's motivated to call around and find some random doctor who will circ a baby who is not even their pt. He's not comfortable navigating all the phone calls involved, and that works in my favor. Maybe this will be the case with your DH as well?

In our case, I think it helped that I emphasized to DH that I'm not "anti-circ", but that I'm anti- making huge decisions for my son, that DS can make the choice to be circed when he's older if that's his preference. And after saying that, I avoided the topic for the rest of the pregnancy. I think trying to win him over on the topic would have solidified his pro-circ position even more- he's stubborn like that.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Good going, mama!

You know, I think it's an indicator of how warped our culture is about modifying boy genitals that there are so many reasons given, and it gets so complicated between men and women, when really, it's so simple!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma*
We don't modify bodies, before a person is old enough to ask for it to be done. Period. Damage, truama, botched jobs, loss of feeling, pain, estrogen receptors...none of that is even relevant any more, so far as I'm concerned. Not my choice, not DHs choice...not happening, period.

This is how it is for girls in our country (for genitals), and this is how it should be for boys, yet we tangle ourselves up in knots trying to prove it. The fact that we have so many reasons for circing, so many layers, just shows that what's buried underneath all of those layers HAS no good reason or justification and we have to wrap it up like an onion so we can't see the simple truth inside.


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## major_mama11 (Apr 13, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *calngavinsmom* 
Oh Momma







s. I'm sorry your dh is being such a PITA. But I don't think this is an issue you can budge on, because if you do, it will be your *son* who pays for it. If you stand up for him and just say no, what is the worst thing that will happen? You need to sign the consent form, not just your dh. There is no reason for you to leave. Just say no. Everytime your dh says it will happen, tell him it will NOT happen. If he is not willing to make a responsible, informed decision for your son, he should not get to make one at all.









:

I'm a nurse, and I remember once a dad (not mom) signed the consent for the circ, and the docs refused to perform it. They insisted that it had to be mom to sign.


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## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

I'm glad you've found peace with your decision, averysmom. You've always struck me as a very reflective, "with it" person and you've described your relationship with your husband as a strong one. You two will weather this. If the circumcision discussion comes up again, based on your loving relationship with your husband, I would probably say something to him like, "I love you as you are, and I love who you were because everything you've done and everything you've been through brought you here to me. Please hear me. I know aspects of your past are painful, but you are going to have to work through them. I cannot allow you to work out any mental static on the body of our newborn child. It just won't happen. But I am here for you, in any other way you need to work this pain out."


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## treespeak (Nov 30, 2007)

First off, sending loving thoughts to you and your DH... As hard as this is right now, this situation could be an opportunity for tremendous healing. Here's my take: your DH sounds like a truly beautiful, loving, sensitive person. And he was wounded beyond what words can describe. Part of his body, his foreskin, was stolen from him when he was a tiny baby. He was scared. He was scarred. He was hurt. And he had the coping skills of a newborn to deal with that pain. When an individual suffers abuse, it is not uncommon for the part of them that dealt with the abuse to get "stuck" at that developmental age. It is my guess that this is why your husband, usually so open and accepting of your well-researched ideas, simply can not talk about circumcision in a rational manner. Leaving your son intact will remind him of what he lost--and his way of coping with that loss as an infant/child/even now as an adult was to simply accept that having his foreskin cut off was inevitable/normal/no loss at all. So now your DH is facing that old wound, and even admitting that it IS a wound is beyond what he can do right now.

So, this is your chance, mama, to step up. It is your turn to make sure that your son doesn't suffer like your husband did. Your husband is incapable of being rational about this right now, so you need to step up, and protect your son. At the same time, open your heart to the tremendous pain inside your DH and realize that is keeping him from protecing his son. DH is afraid he lost something he can never get back. He did. DH is afraid his penis isn't whole. It isn't. DH is afraid that you wish he had been left intact. You likely do. And here's the kicker: DH is afaid that you will leave him/love him less because he was cut. And that's where you can stand up and say (through your actions) "I love you exactly as you are, and will stick with you. And I will protect our son the way you should have been protected."

So read all the no-circ lit, but know that appealing to your husband's rationality at this point is likely useless. Instead, extend to him love and acceptance. Know that he is dealing with a deep wound. Love your husband. Protect your son. Walk right through the middle of the flames. You can do it.

All my love.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *major_mama11* 
<snip>
In our case, it made it easier in that our midwives don't circ, and neither does the family doc we use. We would have had to find a new dr to get ds circed. Also, I make all medical appointments for the kids myself, and DH is upset, but not upset enough that he's motivated to call around and find some random doctor who will circ a baby who is not even their pt. He's not comfortable navigating all the phone calls involved, and that works in my favor. Maybe this will be the case with your DH as well?

See this is the thing for me....his kicking and screaming has been so loud, that it's distracted me from simple fact that I *know* he's not going to put the effort into making this happen. It's jsut not going to happen...he wouldn't know where to begin.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *major_mama11* 
In our case, I think it helped that I emphasized to DH that I'm not "anti-circ", but that I'm anti- making huge decisions for my son, that DS can make the choice to be circed when he's older if that's his preference. And after saying that, I avoided the topic for the rest of the pregnancy. I think trying to win him over on the topic would have solidified his pro-circ position even more- he's stubborn like that.


Bingo. I'm not against any body modification that an informed, fully rational adult wants to have preformed on his body. Children...no dice.


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## benj (Jun 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
You know...having been away for a few hours and thinking about this...I'm going to let it go. I'm not going to allow this to be an issue, because after searching my gut, I really don't think it is an issue...not MY issue anyhow. If my hypothetical son, wants to cut off a piece of his penis, I support him 100% in doing so. If he thinks, that the "extra" skin he has hanging onto his penis needs to go...fine. But he will be a rational, thinking, fully informed young adult, if and when he makes that choice.

It is simply not for my husband or I to decide, if my son should or should not lose a part of his penis, which SERVES A PURPOSE...though, many men do "just fine" without it. So..okay, from a functionality viewpoint, neither way is a catostrophic, sex-life ender...there is no health reason TO do it...so...it will be left up to my son.

That's my story, my reason and I'm sticking to it. Here's another thing I know about my husband: I doubt, highly, that he would even invest the time it would take, to track down a doctor, make the appointment, etc. Our sons doctor, who is currently my DDs doctor, won't do it. He would have to find someone, this "someone" would want to know why it is his wife delivered this boy at home, with no one in attendance....the list of explanations, paperwork, etc is long and getting longer the more I think about this and I simply cannot see him doing any of that. He HATES that kind of stuff more than anything. ANYTHING.

I really am going to stop talking about this. I KNOW he doesn't want to talk about this, he knows how upset I am about this and he is a GOOD husband...we have a GOOD marriage..and I know that while he is kicking and screaming now, that he knows I am serious about this and I simply cannot see him doing something with one of our children that I am this uncomfortable about. He wouldn't.

It struck me that he wouldn't do that, when one of you PPs said something about, even if I left, "he would have unsupervised visits" - I realized, really thinking about that, that I would not leave a good marriage over that, and that he would not wreck a good marriage for that, for circ. So. That's that.

He really is a good man. I think this issue comes down to his unresolved body image issues and emotional scarring from teenage years being projected onto our son...I think that it is manifesting in this way, in regards to circ, but I think that it is enough about something other than circ, that when it came down to it, it wouldn't be important enough to him....relaly thinking this out....I thinkyou guys are right, it's NOT about circ, it's about his son being "different"...and that idea, is not enough. He has stopped short on issues that were more important to him that this, in order to avoid upsetting me...and this would MORE than upset me.

I know him....I know he wouldn't do that. It might make him mad, not to do it...but you know what, I don't remember who it was that said this...but it WOULD permanently damage my marriage. I could never look at him the same way, if he hurt our son like that. Ever. I couldn't look at myself in the mirror the same way again, if I stayed in a marriage, that made me feel like I had to fold to something I find so evil and so wrong at it's most basic level.

So. Thank you all so much for throwing all of these ideas out at me...it made me think about angles of this that I hadn't before...because I was so wrapped up in the emotional issues, how truamatic it is, etc.

But you know what I thought of?? How he was telling me one day, that he thinks it's awful for people to pierce babies ears. I believe the specific language he used was "Our DD can get her ears pierced, when she tells us it's what she wants...why would we permanently modify her body, before she asked us to?" - and that's over something SO "normal" as ear piercing. SO....that's my new stance, because that's the part of this arguement that is the least emotionally charged and the MOST important: We don't modify bodies, before a person is old enough to ask for it to be done. Period. Damage, truama, botched jobs, loss of feeling, pain, estrogen receptors...none of that is even relevant any more, so far as I'm concerned. Not my choice, not DHs choice...not happening, period.

good job.









i think it's also great that you attempt to understand what's going on with your husband and his emotional issues. too often, guys are repressed with that sort of thing, and we need it pried out of us. it seems you do have a very good marriage. it's saddening that your husband's issues are manifested in this way, but at least you caught it and are recognizing it. if your hypothetical son were to be circumcised, it would only temporarily make his negative feelings subside. he will have to deal with them at some point, and preferably not at a child's expense.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *earthmama369* 
I'm glad you've found peace with your decision, averysmom. You've always struck me as a very reflective, "with it" person and you've described your relationship with your husband as a strong one. You two will weather this. If the circumcision discussion comes up again, based on your loving relationship with your husband, I would probably say something to him like, "I love you as you are, and I love who you were because everything you've done and everything you've been through brought you here to me. Please hear me. I know aspects of your past are painful, but you are going to have to work through them. I cannot allow you to work out any mental static on the body of our newborn child. It just won't happen. But I am here for you, in any other way you need to work this pain out."

And you know...it strikes me, that my anger and lashing out about CIRC, probably felt, because this issue is not really about circ for him, very attacking and hostile. *I* was being fierce about my son penis...he *felt* my fierceness at the core of his very deepest insecurities...all this unresolved crap, that's making my loving rational husband shut down and not "care" about how traumatic and violent this is.

Thank you for your loving words and thoughts.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *benj* 
good job.









i think it's also great that you attempt to understand what's going on with your husband and his emotional issues. too often, guys are repressed with that sort of thing, and we need it pried out of us. it seems you do have a very good marriage. it's saddening that your husband's issues are manifested in this way, but at least you caught it and are recognizing it. if your hypothetical son were to be circumcised, it would only temporarily make his negative feelings subside. he will have to deal with them at some point, and preferably not at a child's expense.


And I think that in the end, having a son to begin with, would start to really help him move toward healing his boy self...in a healthy way. Instead of projecting ONTO our son his hurtful past...working through it, by guiding our son through boyhood, into a young adulthood much more supported than the one he had _(His dad up and left while he was at the store one day with his mother and siblings...he is a doctor, so he had lots of money to send, but no time for the kids...so, no dad to help him become a young man in any amount of comfort...in addition to a mother who didn't want to push him, and so, allowed him to slip away, into himself...without ever facing anything)._

I think that being a hands on, loving, supportive dad to a son, would help to heal a lot for him and I think that eventually, leaving his son intact, would prove to be a source of happiness for him. I know that, eventually, all this past hurt will be resolved and at that point, when he can see the issue for what it is, when it's ABOUT circ, for him...he'll agree that we don't condone that sort of violence.

So...I think I'm making this stand for my son, for my own heart...and also for the man I know my husband to be, underneath this clouded issue that is so mixed up and painful for him.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
WWYD? Am I placing too much value on my sons foreskin? Would you budge? I know I have until November, to divise a better plan than leaving or "duking it out" or whatever else...so, I know that I don't have to do something now....but, I'm asking if my feeling of taking this as far as it needs to go, is crazy. Some of you mamas...who have all intact boys....if your DH had pushed it to a point where he was basically like "there is no way in hell we're not circ'ing" - would you have folded?

No. I wouldn't have folded. I was fortunate that neither my ex nor dh cared enough to fight me on this. They didn't agree, but didn't/don't see it as a big deal. However, I would no more allow my son to be circumcised than allow any other body part to be cut off. I wouldn't stay with my husband if he insisted that my son's finger _would_ be cut off, or if he insisted on removing my son's earlobe...or toe...or fingernails...or anything else. Why should his foreskin be any different? Just because lots of other people have done it?

Quote:

...and he should be able to have this one little thing.
It's not a little thing. It's cutting off a piece of someone else's body. If it's a little thing, why does he care so much?

Quote:

I really didn't think it would be hard to convince him, on the premise that it is violent and unecessary, that we shouldn't circ. And yet, here I am. What, oh what, to do?
I'm so sorry. I can only imagine how it would feel to be up against such a brick wall with dh. How heartbreaking.


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## RoseDuperre (Oct 15, 2007)

Your new attitude is great.









Do keep us posted!


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## major_mama11 (Apr 13, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 

...

So...I think I'm making this stand for my son, for my own heart...and also for the man I know my husband to be, underneath this clouded issue that is so mixed up and painful for him.

Good for you- and your possibly male baby!


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *treespeak* 
First off, sending loving thoughts to you and your DH... As hard as this is right now, this situation could be an opportunity for tremendous healing. Here's my take: your DH sounds like a truly beautiful, loving, sensitive person. And he was wounded beyond what words can describe. Part of his body, his foreskin, was stolen from him when he was a tiny baby. He was scared. He was scarred. He was hurt. And he had the coping skills of a newborn to deal with that pain. When an individual suffers abuse, it is not uncommon for the part of them that dealt with the abuse to get "stuck" at that developmental age. It is my guess that this is why your husband, usually so open and accepting of your well-researched ideas, simply can not talk about circumcision in a rational manner. Leaving your son intact will remind him of what he lost--and his way of coping with that loss as an infant/child/even now as an adult was to simply accept that having his foreskin cut off was inevitable/normal/no loss at all. So now your DH is facing that old wound, and even admitting that it IS a wound is beyond what he can do right now.

So, this is your chance, mama, to step up. It is your turn to make sure that your son doesn't suffer like your husband did. Your husband is incapable of being rational about this right now, so you need to step up, and protect your son. At the same time, open your heart to the tremendous pain inside your DH and realize that is keeping him from protecing his son. DH is afraid he lost something he can never get back. He did. DH is afraid his penis isn't whole. It isn't. DH is afraid that you wish he had been left intact. You likely do. And here's the kicker: DH is afaid that you will leave him/love him less because he was cut. And that's where you can stand up and say (through your actions) "I love you exactly as you are, and will stick with you. And I will protect our son the way you should have been protected."

So read all the no-circ lit, but know that appealing to your husband's rationality at this point is likely useless. Instead, extend to him love and acceptance. Know that he is dealing with a deep wound. Love your husband. Protect your son. Walk right through the middle of the flames. You can do it.

All my love.

Thank you, dear, for your kind words of encouragement.

I was thinking about newborns...remembering those first few days. How I barely moved from my babys side, but for a moment to pee or sneak a snack. Just, laying with her, watching her drift in and out of sleep..drifting in and out of sleep myself..it's all such a beautiful blur of breastmilk and slow walking and a pure amazement at this new addition....you know? Just being in awe of how TRULY fresh, how remarkably small and perfect a new baby is. It is inconcievable to me, that any person would..COULD...break that enchantment, with the piercing screams of a baby, being hurt in ways NO child should be hurt. I mean, people...we didn't speak in but a hush, for a week after she was born...when she came into this world...it was into her dads gentle hands...in soothing warm water, with low low lights and almost no noise, save a few gasps of ecstacy from me, hushed whispers of exuberant joy from him...and the light sound of native american pipe music flowing somewhere in the background...or maybe the rain CD was on at the time...either one. It was magic...MAGIC. I couldn't concieve of breaking that magic, of so injuring a freshling like that.

I remember we didn't want those moments to end, ever. I never wanted those first few precious moments to end. She was finally with us and I was in warm water and he was so in love with her and with me and he couldn't stop holding me and touching me and I couldn't stop wishing that time would stop. I never wanted to get out of that pool, I never wanted to stop living that love...the incredible love of that moment. And you know what? I haven't. I never will, I promise to always remember that night, the night I *truly* fell in love with my husband, a deeper love than I ever thought I knew...even as much as I loved him before. And I'll always remember, and hold in my heart, my complete amazement and love for my precious daughter...I'll never allow anything to make me feel any less than that, than THAT family, sitting in the pool, holding each other and just so glad to be together, so aware of the fact that the only things that mattered in all the world were right there wrapped up in my DHs arms.

Circ'ing our son....would forever marr his birth. I could never do that to him, never would do that to him...and I think it's easy, for a man to think of a son and think...Man Child. Yes, Circ him, like ME. But when my darling DH, who is so loving and kind, who comes off as the most gruff character...but who is secretly a GIGANTIC softy or anything smaller than, weaker than...whatever..the underdog..he can't help himself...he melts...when he lays eyes on his little baby boy, and I hope now more than ever that he does, there is no way he would consent to that sort of harm to him. Ever. I know he will be lost again, in that loving place of awe...and I doubt, judging from his behavior at our last birth...that it would even cross his mind.

I can't wait to find out if this little baby is a boy or a girl...what excitement, to have a little boy, too....my happiness at the thought of a son for us, has been restored. I'm so glad for this.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

YMMV but that type of arguing would be followed by a call to a good counselor and instant scheduling for marital and individual therapy.

Differences are one thing; stonewalling is another and TBH when something is "untouchable" like that it's a big huge neon sign saying "issues! I have issues!"


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
It is simply not for my husband or I to decide, if my son should or should not lose a part of his penis, which SERVES A PURPOSE...though, many men do "just fine" without it. So..okay, from a functionality viewpoint, neither way is a catostrophic, sex-life ender...

It can be, though. One thing people tend to do with "routine" surgeries, such as circ (or c-sections, my pet peeve) is assume that everything will go well. There is _no_ guarantee that any given circ procedure won't be botched. It's not nice to think about, but why perform an unnecessary surgery that has _any_ chance of causing long-term harm? A baby _died_ during a circ in the UK not that long ago. Sure - it's rare. So is stillbirth...but I have three living children, after four term pregnancies. Things go wrong. The only surgery that is guaranteed to be free of complications is one that never happens.

Quote:

He really is a good man. I think this issue comes down to his unresolved body image issues and emotional scarring from teenage years being projected onto our son...I think that it is manifesting in this way, in regards to circ,
When and if you have to talk about it again, look up the circ rates in your area. A lot of people assume that the rates are still at virtually 100%, but it's not true. There are many, many more boys being left intact these days. I've never seen a grown man - or teen, when I was a teen - with an intact penis (I'm 40). Every boy in my family - my sons, my nephews, my brother - is intact, though. Every one. Of those boys I know the status of - children of friends and such - I only know of one boy who was circ'd. BC is a low circ area, but the rates are generally dropping all over North America. It's possible that circing your (hypothetical) son could be what makes him "different".

Quote:

But you know what I thought of?? How he was telling me one day, that he thinks it's awful for people to pierce babies ears. I believe the specific language he used was "Our DD can get her ears pierced, when she tells us it's what she wants...why would we permanently modify her body, before she asked us to?" - and that's over something SO "normal" as ear piercing. SO....that's my new stance, because that's the part of this arguement that is the least emotionally charged and the MOST important: We don't modify bodies, before a person is old enough to ask for it to be done. Period..








:
I won't pierce a baby's ears, either...for the same reasons I won't circ.


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## kcstar (Mar 20, 2009)

I think DH was concerned about the "look like dad" issue, and also locker-room teasing. My brothers are uncirc'ed, I had one of them talk to him about it. (Basically, he told DH it wasn't an issue). It worked out for me, I hope it will for you.


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## benj (Jun 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kcstar* 
I think DH was concerned about the "look like dad" issue, and also locker-room teasing. My brothers are uncirc'ed, I had one of them talk to him about it. (Basically, he told DH it wasn't an issue). It worked out for me, I hope it will for you.

i never understood the "look like dad" thing. i've never once looked at my penis and thought of my dad. that's actually a little gross, to be honest.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BoringTales* 
I wouldn't abandon my family, my husband, and separate my kids from a loving father over this one issue.

Besides that, if you do separate, he'll have visitation rights...unsupervised visitation rights. He's the father and perfectly able to sign medical concent forms. See where I'm going with this?

And yet, OVER MY DEAD BODY sends a message, loud and clear.


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
Thank you, dear, for your kind words of encouragement.

I was thinking about newborns...remembering those first few days. How I barely moved from my babys side, but for a moment to pee or sneak a snack. Just, laying with her, watching her drift in and out of sleep..drifting in and out of sleep myself..it's all such a beautiful blur of breastmilk and slow walking and a pure amazement at this new addition....you know? Just being in awe of how TRULY fresh, how remarkably small and perfect a new baby is. It is inconcievable to me, that any person would..COULD...break that enchantment, with the piercing screams of a baby, being hurt in ways NO child should be hurt. I mean, people...we didn't speak in but a hush, for a week after she was born...when she came into this world...it was into her dads gentle hands...in soothing warm water, with low low lights and almost no noise, save a few gasps of ecstacy from me, hushed whispers of exuberant joy from him...and the light sound of native american pipe music flowing somewhere in the background...or maybe the rain CD was on at the time...either one. It was magic...MAGIC. I couldn't concieve of breaking that magic, of so injuring a freshling like that.

I remember we didn't want those moments to end, ever. I never wanted those first few precious moments to end. She was finally with us and I was in warm water and he was so in love with her and with me and he couldn't stop holding me and touching me and I couldn't stop wishing that time would stop. I never wanted to get out of that pool, I never wanted to stop living that love...the incredible love of that moment. And you know what? I haven't. I never will, I promise to always remember that night, the night I *truly* fell in love with my husband, a deeper love than I ever thought I knew...even as much as I loved him before. And I'll always remember, and hold in my heart, my complete amazement and love for my precious daughter...I'll never allow anything to make me feel any less than that, than THAT family, sitting in the pool, holding each other and just so glad to be together, so aware of the fact that the only things that mattered in all the world were right there wrapped up in my DHs arms.

Circ'ing our son....would forever marr his birth. I could never do that to him, never would do that to him...and I think it's easy, for a man to think of a son and think...Man Child. Yes, Circ him, like ME. But when my darling DH, who is so loving and kind, who comes off as the most gruff character...but who is secretly a GIGANTIC softy or anything smaller than, weaker than...whatever..the underdog..he can't help himself...he melts...when he lays eyes on his little baby boy, and I hope now more than ever that he does, there is no way he would consent to that sort of harm to him. Ever. I know he will be lost again, in that loving place of awe...and I doubt, judging from his behavior at our last birth...that it would even cross his mind.

I can't wait to find out if this little baby is a boy or a girl...what excitement, to have a little boy, too....my happiness at the thought of a son for us, has been restored. I'm so glad for this.

That was beautiful.







:


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 

He has made his reasons known. He is not vague on this, he is not wavering...it's not a fear thing, where he's just fearful for his son being teased or something like that...he won't budge, because he beleives that he is RIGHT. He believes, that circumcision is *right*. THAT is the trouble here. It's not a case of, he just needs to hear the right information, or, if I can show him, that his penis DOESN'T have all it's features, maybe he'll agree...he really and truly believes that this is the right thing to do. He's solid, 100% in this.

What do you think was the first lesson you learned after you were born? That food comes from mommy? Or the comforting sent of your dad?

Before your husband learned to love living things, or to think rationally, or possibly even before he learned what his mother looked like, he was circumcised. The very first lesson he EVER learned after being born was that circumcision is good, and should be done to boys. Everything else grew from that.

There is a power in body modification, a power that changes the way we think about ourselves, and how we think about others on extremely deep and personal level. The fact that his body modification happened as an infant only intensifies all that.

In his mind of course its right, your questioning a basic pillar of his existence. Of his views on the body, and the rights of individuals.

Working through this is going to need more then just a persuasive argument. Be set for a storm, there is no way around it. You have to find ways of weathering it, and facing it head on. I think you can get through this as a family, but it wont be easy.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *perspective* 
What do you think was the first lesson you learned after you were born? That food comes from mommy? Or the comforting scent of your dad?

Before your husband learned to love living things, or to think rationally, or possibly even before he learned what his mother looked like, he was circumcised. The very first lesson he EVER learned after being born was that circumcision is good, and should be done to boys. Everything else grew from that.

There is a power in body modification, a power that changes the way we think about ourselves, and how we think about others on extremely deep and personal level. The fact that his body modification happened as an infant only intensifies all that.

In his mind of course its right, your questioning a basic pillar of his existence. Of his views on the body, and the rights of individuals.

Working through this is going to need more then just a persuasive argument. Be set for a storm, there is no way around it. You have to find ways of weathering it, and facing it head on. I think you can get through this as a family, but it wont be easy.


This is very profound. (I mean that).


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## Quickbeam (Jan 6, 2009)

What a good thread. I'm glad you were able to work through this, mama.

You know, there have been times in my marriage when I was behaving unreasonably and my husband sort of gently hit the "override button."







So from the other perspective, I can say that I'm thankful for what he did. I hope your DH will feel the same in time.

As to your original question, genital cutting is a deal breaker for me. I'm glad DH feels the way I do about it.


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## jenP (Aug 22, 2002)

Hugs to you! What a tough thing to go through when pregnant!

How far should you go? Well, how far would you go if your husband wanted to cut off your child's clitoris? Would moving in with your mom seem so bizarre, to protect your daughter from sexual mutilation?

Why is he acting this way? Why is such a rational, caring man not able to look at the facts and consider the violence? Because he was circumcised. All his life he was told circumcised was better. Of course he believed it! And now you tell him it takes away important, functioning, sensitive sexual tissue? What a blow! Now you want him to question circumcision? Any questioning of circumcision means questioning himself, his penis, his sexuality. How difficult that must be! You say he wants to do it to your son because he believes it is the RIGHT thing. Well, how would he feel if he had to admit to himself that it is wrong? He might feel violated (by the doctors and his parents), rejected by you (he might feel you think intact is "better" because you want it for your son), judged, who knows what other bad feelings? So men build this wall of denial. It can be hard to break down.

It might be best to just let it be known you will go to any lengths necessary to protect your son from a human rights violation, and then DROP IT. After all, no more discussion is needed. " I will protect him. End of discussion." Your husband may need lots of time and lots of space to digest this. Luckily you have time. Show him how much you love and cherish him, don't discuss circ at all, and let him take his time to come to terms with it all. Most caring, rational men do, eventually.

Best to you!!
And having a boy is really fun, I hope you get to experience it without all the strife.









Jen


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i am glad you are not going to let it happen... or let it be an issue.

a few of the PPs have said their husbands resent them for this, why are they letting this continue to be an issue? it is not going to change so what is the point of their resentment? why on earth would a guy tell his child that his intact status makes him look like an alien? am i the only one who would leave if DP did that and refused to stop? isnt making fun of a childs genitals some form of abuse? why is he trying to make his son feel ashamed of his penis? are these common issues with men who are pro circ but leave their sons intact?

i told dp there was no medical reason he said ok we wont do it







hes also against infant ear piercing... who knew. the man doesn't vote but he has strong opinions about ear piercing.


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## benj (Jun 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 







i am glad you are not going to let it happen... or let it be an issue.

a few of the PPs have said their husbands resent them for this, why are they letting this continue to be an issue? it is not going to change so what is the point of their resentment? why on earth would a guy tell his child that his intact status makes him look like an alien? am i the only one who would leave if DP did that and refused to stop? isnt making fun of a childs genitals some form of abuse? why is he trying to make his son feel ashamed of his penis? are these common issues with men who are pro circ but leave their sons intact?

i think it's more common with guys that are a little older. most teenagers/young men that i've talked to say they don't want to do it to their sons. i've always thought circumcised penises looked mutilated, which is why i'm having such a problem dealing with my chosen status...


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:

i think it's more common with guys that are a little older. most teenagers/young men that i've talked to say they don't want to do it to their sons. i've always thought circumcised penises looked mutilated, which is why i'm having such a problem dealing with my chosen status...
I agree. I think its an age issue. God maybe there was a time (the 50's, or 70's,?) Where if you were intact you were seen as a freak. That a little boy with a foreskin would teased and harassed in the locker room, and avoided by all the girls. Maybe some of these older Dad's saw this one day as a child, and it cemented into them as this really funny day, but horrified them to imagine their son being at the other end of those social attacks.

Maybe that happened decades ago. But not anymore. Younger fathers may remember seeing an intact guy (heck maybe a group) and it was different but no one took notice, it was never as big of a deal.

Side note: Benji- I dont know what your reasons were, but those must have been some strong reasons if you did it knowing you might view your own penis has mutilated afterwards.


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## lawmama1984 (Mar 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Stop arguing or trying to sell it. If it comes up be calm and centered and 100% sure. Your son will not be cut. Period. Paragraph. End.Of.Discussion.

You will not allow it. You will not schedule it. You will not sign off on it. You will NOT ALLOW IT.

And stick to it.

-Angela


Quote:


Originally Posted by *RoseDuperre* 
_Irreparably violating his son's body is not his right._









:







:

And big







: AverysMomma. I just want to say your attitude seems great...I really hope this will not be an issue for you and your DH, but I am glad that you know where you stand (and I also like how you made the connection between your DH's stance on ear piercing and circ). Congratulations on your pregnancy and I hope you keep us posted on if you are having a boy or a girl


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BoringTales*
I wouldn't abandon my family, my husband, and separate my kids from a loving father over this one issue.

Besides that, if you do separate, he'll have visitation rights...unsupervised visitation rights. He's the father and perfectly able to sign medical concent forms. See where I'm going with this?

Medical issues are something that can be dealt with as part of a divorce settlement -- i.e., both parents have to consent to a procedure like circumcision.

I realize this is not relevant for the OP, but no mother should ever be blackmailed into harming her child because the father threatens to do it anyway, whether during the marriage or after. That is the worst form of emotional coercion.


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## LaffNowCryLater (May 2, 2003)

I wouldn't do it. It would be a dealbreaker for me. My dh was right on board though b/c he was circd as a teen (for cosmetic reasons and he regrets it now esp when he found out I always wanted to uhm "experience" an intact penis














and he said no way would he do it to an infant, especially with methods they use on a infant v. older male.


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## Nandi (Jul 12, 2008)

Your new attitude sounds great. I second the motion of looking at circ. rates in your area. It may be favorably intact, esp. if you are on the West coast.
We can't say the R word, but pm me if you want some quotes that you feel would be relevant.
My attitude is also "Over my dead body."
You definitely aren't over the top or crazy. You just feel those momma instincts. Protect your baby


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## number572 (Aug 25, 2004)

Averysmomma! I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. I posted the other day and have just edited b'c it was a pretty emotionally charged post. I was taken aback b'c you're always so strong & wise when responding to others' issues and usually have advice on how the rest of us can work something out. I know you must be torn up by this & I send you strength!


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## Christine_T (Nov 21, 2008)

With guys you have to be firm with them.

Remind him that a circumcised child is:
a) in pain and discomfort
b) will require a lot more care.

Tell him that reports of problems later are greatly exaggerated and that problems post-circumcision are vastly under-reported.

Also say that in Canada (the closest country to the USA ) neonatal circ rates have dropped to less than 10%:http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/Canada/

Finally, get him to watch this video with Doctor Dean Edell:


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Aaaaand back to your regularly scheduled program! Sorry about the little delay in getting the thread back!


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## KnitLady (Jul 6, 2006)

Curious to know if it's a boy....


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## KaylaBeanie (Jan 27, 2009)

I went to her profile and then "all posts." She posted on another topic that it's a boy!


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KaylaBeanie* 
I went to her profile and then "all posts." She posted on another topic that it's a boy!

Let the storm begin...

Everyone get all their info ready, this lady is going to need a lot of help and support!


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## Mrsboyko (Nov 13, 2007)

My DH was set in much the same way and has much the same overall pholisophy. He was appalled that I asked about piercing my DD's ears. He said not till she asked for it. We left our cats claws intact becasue it is inhumane and actually illegal to have them declawed in some states. He is a tatoo artist and won't tatoo my sister who has been begging for a while because she is not 18 and therefor not legal age, even though my parents have said it was okay.

Basically I left it alone till we knew we had a boy coming. No use arguing about it if there was no reason, right? Then I made up rules. We didn't discuss it face to face, e-mail only, becasue it was to emotional for both of us. We would have ended up yelling and someone would get hurt feelings.

Then (and this was the big thing) I put it on him to come up with facts/ reasons/ studies to prove his point. I was on the side of nature, the default. Innocent basically. He was trying for modification, surgery. Therefor HE needed to convicne me that it was a good idea. Coercion like leaving the marrage would not be tolerated.

Every once in a while I would send him a link to interesting onfo I found, but other than that we didn't discuss it. When the time came and my wonderful HB turned into a transfer, the nurses asked. And I just looked at him. He said no circ. Had he said that we were circ'ing, I would have immediately corrected them, but putting that power in his hands (even if I already knew the answer) forced his hand. He couldn't do it and i knew it.

In a year or so our son will need surgery to correct a syndactly (fusion) of his fingers. DH tried one more febal attempt at the circ issue. He claimed that since I was so against it happening w/o anesthesia, maybe they could just do it when he had his surgery. I balked and said that no, it was not about the anesthesia thing, it was about it being HIS body. It was not our decision to make. He dropped it after that.


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## amandaleigh37 (Jul 13, 2006)

I haven't read the whole thread but I'm sorry you are dealing with this! As someone who DID circ my son (though not due to my DH - it was due to my own/our combined ignorance!) I can tell you that you will never forgive yourself if you do this.







But it sounds like you already know that & plan to stand firm.

Do you think that (maybe once a period of not discussing it has passed... time to cool down maybe...) he would be open to some sort of compromise - say, leave the baby intact for 1 year and THEN discuss it again? I'd be shocked if he would really want to put his baby through that after getting to know him & how perfect he is... Just an idea.








I don't know what I'd do in your shoes really. I'm lucky that it didn't take much for DH to agree with me on this one. Our next son is due in 3 weeks and will be intact. Good luck.


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Congrats on expecting a little boy, Averysmomma!









"How far I'd take it", personally, is... very far. Luckily I married a man who's now an intactivist (neither of us were really aware of the issue beforehand) and live in a country where circ is rare. But if for any reason push comes to shove in the future... yeah, I'd do whatever it took. The outcome is non-negotiable. The method of _getting_ to the outcome could vary - medical evidence, emotional arguments, even threatening separation - but at the end of the day, my son would remain intact.

I think I startled my mother about this one. She knows I'm an intactivist, but I also believe in wifely submission (religious thing) so she asked if I'd "defy my husband" on this issue if it came down to it. I said "Absolutely, just as I would have if he'd tried to circ our daughter". I think she "got it" then.


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## rabbitmum (Jan 25, 2007)

...


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## RealLifeDad (Jun 13, 2009)

We are having a girl, If we were having a boy we wouldn't cut him.

This is our first, and we talked about it before we knew the sex.

All it took is for us both to watch a vid how its done.

Then we did a little research on how it is just a ritual.

Then we realized how brutal the female version is.

That pretty much sealed the deal for both of us.

I can understand how some men will say," I want my son to look like me" I totally understand. That was my first stance on the subject. But then I realized how selfish that was.

like: " I only have one arm I want my son to look like me"

hmmm.

By the way this is my second post here, looks like a great forum.
-Chris


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## Nandi (Jul 12, 2008)

Hey Real Life Dad, glad to have you here


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## benj (Jun 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *perspective* 
I agree. I think its an age issue. God maybe there was a time (the 50's, or 70's,?) Where if you were intact you were seen as a freak. That a little boy with a foreskin would teased and harassed in the locker room, and avoided by all the girls. Maybe some of these older Dad's saw this one day as a child, and it cemented into them as this really funny day, but horrified them to imagine their son being at the other end of those social attacks.

Maybe that happened decades ago. But not anymore. Younger fathers may remember seeing an intact guy (heck maybe a group) and it was different but no one took notice, it was never as big of a deal.

Side note: Benji- I dont know what your reasons were, but those must have been some strong reasons if you did it knowing you might view your own penis has mutilated afterwards.

Yeah...from the atmosphere in my high school, if you were to say anything about another guy's penis in the locker room, you'd be accused of being homosexual (which isn't good either...







)

However, I was turned down once for being intact. And it did suck, but if it can keep me away from stupid and ignorant girls, I guess that's just another positive function.









Nah, it's not that bad. I just have to change my attitude, although it might take some time.


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## battymama (Jan 15, 2008)

Averysmum i just stumbled upon this, sorry you are going through this. I dont think you are going to far at all, not at all. I seriously wouldnt hesitate to take my baby and run if i felt that he would be circed behind my back, and i would be entirly uninterested in being in a reslashionship where i was fearful of that happening.

I would not allow my child to be sexually abused and mutilated, that may seem over dramatic to some but that is honestly how i feel in my hearts of hearts.

Good luck, seriously do what you have to, i hope this works out for you.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *benj* 
However, I was turned down once for being intact. And it did suck, but if it can keep me away from stupid and ignorant girls, I guess that's just another positive function.









Nah, it's not that bad. I just have to change my attitude, although it might take some time.

wtf? i would love to meet the girl who asks about a guys circ status before she gets intimate. i would also sort of wonder why you would turn someone down b/c they are intact... that makes no sense.

as a girl who had zero opinion on foreskins...and whose friends had zero opinion on foreskins prior to dating a guy with one.. the ones whose b/f's were intact knew this and appreciated this spiffy feature. i had no idea.. it never occurred to me to wonder... i wasn't performing a medical examination after all.... and i didn't spend a lot of time staring at it.

some people are down right strange.


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## benj (Jun 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
wtf? i would love to meet the girl who asks about a guys circ status before she gets intimate. i would also sort of wonder why you would turn someone down b/c they are intact... that makes no sense.

as a girl who had zero opinion on foreskins...and whose friends had zero opinion on foreskins prior to dating a guy with one.. the ones whose b/f's were intact knew this and appreciated this spiffy feature. i had no idea.. it never occurred to me to wonder... i wasn't performing a medical examination after all.... and i didn't spend a lot of time staring at it.

some people are down right strange.

Oh, she didn't ask before.


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## frontierpsych (Jun 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *benj* 
Oh, she didn't ask before.









yikes! Sorry dude. Probably a positive thing in the long run! I've always heard foreskin makes a great shallow woman filter.

I have never been with an intact guy, just because circ. was really common when I was born so most guys in the US my age are circed. I didn't even know what an intact penis looked like until I came to MDC. I didn't intend to circ my son though, pretty much from the time I thought about it.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I do not think you are taking it too far, can you really take protecting your child from unnecessary, painful and sexually altering surgery too far?

I would do whatever it took to protect my child. A child's body parts aren't marital bargaining chips.

I truly hope your dh comes around but if not I hope you do everything in your power to protect your son.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *benj* 
Oh, she didn't ask before.









Ouch. I'm sorry. I can't even imagine...


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## Sandy Roman (Jul 7, 2008)

So many good things in this discussion. What is clear, is that for someone who has been circumcised, circumcision of _their_ children is still a sort of primeval compulsion, regardless of how it occurred for the father initially.
-I saw this in my brother's case. I think it's terrible.







:

My sons are both intact,







: -I am not. I was totally Pissed when I found out people _knew_ 600 years ago of _the specific damage from circumcision._ Damage to sex, damage to the couple's love bond, chronic bickering, 5 minute sex, -for some folks these are the _desired_ fruits of circumcision.

My Sweetie said it should be my choice. Oh yeah? What if I am wrong? What if I am misinformed? What if I can't listen? Being male confers no special decision making privilege, or insight, actually it can detract.

I am still wounded by this.







: Post 35 was superb.







: It is spot on. This stuff is not in a part of the brain you can "voluntary access" -much as you'd like to, just to be done with it.







:

Anyone who's informed that would do this to their child well it makes me wonder.... Wounded? So work on it Bub! Harming your children doesn't make you feel better. -Many posters have said this, its true.

I am just repeating other's ideas. Just wanted to say thank you for post 35 especially, but all of them as well. Great healing community here.

It is women -who have the power to create life, that truly can heal us. Men tend to be destroyers, while women are creators. Envy Much? I think the world would be a better place if more boys learned to knit a pair of socks, after cleaning, carding and spinning the wool by hand. _Knowing firsthand_ the effort that goes into the smallest things, -ones we take for granted, might make them less likely to break things, go to war, etc. My children knit, as do I. (No socks yet!) Knitting teaches patience, counting, beauty,... whats not to like?

Let men stop their violence, -even if women have to hold their hand, or stare them down, all the way to the end. Medicine has aspects of this violence too, in the medicalization of birth, excessive hysterectomies and so on.

Question everything, but especially culture.... Mark Twain said, culture was all the prejudices you inherit by the age of 18. Some truth to that.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sandy Roman* 
It is women -who have the power to create life, that truly can heal us. Men tend to be destroyers, while women are creators. Envy Much? I think the world would be a better place if more boys learned to knit a pair of socks, after cleaning, carding and spinning the wool by hand. _Knowing firsthand_ the effort that goes into the smallest things, -ones we take for granted, might make them less likely to break things, go to war, etc. My children knit, as do I. (No socks yet!) Knitting teaches patience, counting, beauty,... whats not to like?

Let men stop their violence, -even if women have to hold their hand, or stare them down, all the way to the end. Medicine has aspects of this violence too, in the medicalization of birth, excessive hysterectomies and so on.

I got to say thats an incredibly sexist thing to say. "Men tend to be destroyers"? You should take a trip to a pro female circ society. You will find that it is mothers, sisters, and grandmothers (women) who are the ones holding little girls down as they go genital mutilation. Forced circ is not problem specific to any gender, both sides do it to their own gender.

A male baby is no more prone to destroy, or be violent then a girl baby.

I think your completely missing the point when you say "It is women -who have the power to create life, that truly can heal us." Because its only partly true.

The power to create life is shared between women and men. Men fertilize the seed, and women give it a place for it be safe while it develops. What that example should be teaching you is that only when we come together can we see positive results in the world around us. And not that any one side is "the problem" (or the solution).

We must support and open each others eyes. Because violence knows no gender bounds. Its only working together can we see where we have become misguided in what we might have thought was best.


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## benj (Jun 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frontierpsych* 
yikes! Sorry dude. Probably a positive thing in the long run! I've always heard foreskin makes a great shallow woman filter.

I have never been with an intact guy, just because circ. was really common when I was born so most guys in the US my age are circed. I didn't even know what an intact penis looked like until I came to MDC. I didn't intend to circ my son though, pretty much from the time I thought about it.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Ouch. I'm sorry. I can't even imagine...









I can brush it off now, don't worry.







But at the time, I will admit it was pretty awful and humiliating. She ended up apologizing eventually.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Women are holding down their daughters to be circumcised because their male dominated culture dictated them to. It's much more complicated than whose holding them down and making the cut. The mutilation started with Patriarchy here and there.
That said I am horrified by women forcing sexual mutilation onto girls no matter the cultural push.

I'd love to know if you have had any luck with your dh, OP.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LavenderMae* 
Women are holding down their daughters to be circumcised because their male dominated culture dictated them to. It's much more complicated than whose holding them down and making the cut. The mutilation started with Patriarchy here and there.
That said I am horrified by women forcing sexual mutilation onto girls no matter the cultural push.

I'd love to know if you have had any luck with your dh, OP.

Cultures can manipulate men as much as they do women. The point of that example is to show that women have the ability (and are) just as violent and destructive as men can be. Just as men can be as loving and caring as women are traditionally seen.


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## Sandy Roman (Jul 7, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *perspective* 
_I got to say thats an incredibly sexist thing to say. "Men tend to be destroyers"? You should take a trip to a pro female circ society. You will find that it is mothers, sisters, and grandmothers (women) who are the ones holding little girls down as they go genital mutilation. Forced circ is not problem specific to any gender, both sides do it to their own gender._

Perspective, all good points you make here. I tend to think about these folks: Bin Laden, Bush Cheney, endless USA wars, the Taliban types. Some men go for destruction wholesale. Others let them do it. I think they have a problem! But FGM is also very very awful, and very personal of a violation. The poster who said FGM also served men, was also right.

In talking to one person about infant circumcision, -his response was, "Who says human rights are important?" He just feels entitled to do it -and recommend it to others. Sad. FGM probably has similar adherents in the older women in those cultures.

_A male baby is no more prone to destroy, or be violent then a girl baby._

Yes, babies is where we start, but things do eventually differ! I have two rather large boys and take very seriously the task of raising them to be thoughtful, expressive, compassionate etc. because the balance is needed. Socializing boys is important, they can easily use size and power to their advantage. Testosterone level in individuals does have correlates to behavior, -but it certainly doesn't dictate it. [Boys are sometimes seen as "flawed girls" in schools nowadays, and that is just plain unfair to the boys.]

_I think your completely missing the point when you say "It is women -who have the power to create life, that truly can heal us." Because its only partly true._

This would have been clearer, "It is women that truly can heal us." -Not that we can't heal on our own! -Yet, it can help a lot to have the support and perspective of women.

_The power to create life is shared between women and men. Men fertilize the seed, and women give it a place for it be safe while it develops. What that example should be teaching you is that only when we come together can we see positive results in the world around us. And not that any one side is "the problem" (or the solution)._

Totally agree. You are very wise here. But women really have the bulk of the bodily function and involvement. I have "womb envy" I admit it. -The whole thing is amazing from courting to conception to birth and growth. Men can feel a little left out.
_
We must support and open each others eyes. Because violence knows no gender bounds._

True, yet men commit most of the violent crimes assault, murder, rape. Yuck. War. Big yuck (usually). -I was bullied a great deal in grade school. That colors my perception of males and authority figures, most certainly. Girls also bully, via exclusion, and that is just as rough -and less well known.

_Its only working together can we see where we have become misguided in what we might have thought was best._

Again, the two perspectives (and more) are often better than one. Agreed.

Thank you for the kind criticism, it *is* appreciated. -These are habitual ways of thinking. Lately I have been sifting through them with a fresh eye, maybe I'll change some. I certainly hope so.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sandy Roman* 
Perspective, all good points you make here. I tend to think about these folks: Bin Laden, Bush Cheney, endless USA wars, the Taliban types. Some men go for destruction wholesale. Others let them do it. I think they have a problem!

Well, yes but all those roles, from leader of the free world, to figure heads of terrorist groups are positions that traditionally excluded women. It is not that women would not act in similar ways if put in these positions, its just they have not had as many chances to. And in times where there have been women in leadership roles over countries, they still carried out wars, there still was corruption, innocent people died, and at times greed/power still won over their better nature.

The problem is when people take traditional gender roles and say that these are inherent, instead of reactions to the situations people are thrown into. If you are the gender which is traditionally responsible for the caring and nurturing of the family, of course is going to seem like the more "healing gender" versus the one traditionally in charge of leadership/ protection, who is forced to be on the front lines of dealing with cultural problems.

Quote:

I have two rather large boys and take very seriously the task of raising them to be thoughtful, expressive, compassionate etc. because the balance is needed. Socializing boys is important, they can easily use size and power to their advantage. Testosterone level in individuals does have correlates to behavior, -but it certainly doesn't dictate it.
Its true that males have more aggressive hormones then females do, that hardly trumps level headed judgement of adults. I do agree that boys need to be raised with compassion, love and socialization, but not because of their hormones. But because society spends so much time telling men to be less emotionally, and less socialized. Like girls are given dolls and they play mock situations that simulate things adults deal with. While boys are told not to cry, and are handed a ball, or an action figure, with preparation for the emotional realities of adulthood.

Quote:

This would have been clearer, "It is women that truly can heal us." -Not that we can't heal on our own! -Yet, it can help a lot to have the support and perspective of women.
Just as it can women to have the support and perspective of men. This is a two way street.

Quote:

Totally agree. You are very wise here. But women really have the bulk of the bodily function and involvement. I have "womb envy" I admit it. -The whole thing is amazing from courting to conception to birth and growth. Men can feel a little left out.
Of course, I think everyone is amazed by the developmental process that goes on within the female body, and would not mind experiencing it myself. (Although not really the birthing part, yikes!) But women do not have any majority control over the creation process. That ball starts rolling with man and woman pushing at the same time, its the developmental/incubation process that they over see. Although its not creation, its still pretty amazing stuff.

Quote:

True, yet men commit most of the violent crimes assault, murder, rape. Yuck. War. Big yuck (usually). -I was bullied a great deal in grade school. That colors my perception of males and authority figures, most certainly. Girls also bully, via exclusion, and that is just as rough -and less well known.
Its true men commit most of the violent crimes, but that does not mean most men are violent, or that we can say "men are the violent ones, lets get advise from the less violent females." It would be just as untrue to say "since most violent crimes in NYC are commited by African-Americans then African-American New Yorkers are more violent."

You would not say they should get advice from other demographics that commit less crimes, would you? No, of course not. Because just because more violent actions are caused by a certain group does not mean most people in that group are violent, or have some lesson they need to learn.

As you said, and as I said really the focus should be we all have something we can learn from each other. But I have to say your comments have been quite interesting. And as you can tell from my SN, the views of others is very important to me.

As the analogy goes, your understanding of where the sun hangs in the sky is completely relative to where you stand on the ground.

Meaning there is no one, right point of view. Only together can we see clearly.


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## Sandy Roman (Jul 7, 2008)

Perspective,

_Well, yes but all those roles, from leader of the free world, to figure heads of terrorist groups are positions that traditionally excluded women. It is not that women would not act in similar ways if put in these positions, its just they have not had as many chances to. And in times where there have been women in leadership roles over countries, they still carried out wars, there still was corruption, innocent people died, and at times greed/power still won over their better nature._

Well, I am weak on historical knowledge of what you speak. I concede it can be possible, but don't know of it myself. Certainly women in tragedies (Greek Shakespeare) commit many sins too.

In theoretical moral choice scenarios, men tend to choose "the most good for someone" -even at the expense at another party, sort of an "end justifies the means." This was viewed (by men) as superior moral development to women's responses which tend to, "Can't we find a way to do good, without penalizing someone else in the process?" A second look at this, by feminists shows women are not less developed morally, they just frame it differently.

Still men kill over _ideas_ and "the R word" I don't see women doing that nearly so much, historically speaking.

The argument also could be made (for either gender) that selection for these roles is not uniform: You have to be sleazy or ruthless to be successful as a politician. The rest of us might be much more decent folk. -You make a similar argument further down about New Yorkers.

I'm keeping this short as we are mostly on the same page, (and it's a bit off topic). You -and others- might enjoy this striking essay, with the tongue in cheek title *Is There Anything Good About Men?*







:
http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm

Baumeister discusses the idea that men tend to have numerous, less deep relationships, they compete with other men, and create culture in order to do so. Specific data that applies is mentioned. It's a good read.

See you tomorrow, -I have a day job I need to sleep for!


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## Meg_s (Apr 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
wtf? i would love to meet the girl who asks about a guys circ status before she gets intimate. i would also sort of wonder why you would turn someone down b/c they are intact... that makes no sense.


LOL







:







:







: I ask... you know, prospectives, but just cause I'm nosey like that. My current is my first circ'd and really, the foreskin is such a wonderfully functional and fantastic part of the human body i'm needing to learn how to work with something pretty different now. I'm all about going for the person and not their parts, just noting the difference.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sandy Roman* 
Perspective,

In theoretical moral choice scenarios, men tend to choose "the most good for someone" -even at the expense at another party, sort of an "end justifies the means." This was viewed (by men) as superior moral development to women's responses which tend to, "Can't we find a way to do good, without penalizing someone else in the process?" A second look at this, by feminists shows women are not less developed morally, they just frame it differently.

I dont see what evidence you have to show that "men tend to think this way, and women tend to think that way" beyond the influences of your own opinion. I dont think this is something you can prove. The closest anyone could get to doing so would in the end be a cherry picking project.

Quote:

Still men kill over _ideas_ and "the R word" I don't see women doing that nearly so much, historically speaking.

The argument also could be made (for either gender) that selection for these roles is not uniform: You have to be sleazy or ruthless to be successful as a politician. The rest of us might be much more decent folk. -You make a similar argument further down about New Yorkers.
Are you trying to say what kept women from getting into real positions of power, was that they were not sleazy/ruthless enough? Men often were born into positions of power, if not that they had family legacies to fulfill. Often they had plans set up for them from birth. What do you think women could not have been clever enough to gain leadership positions? Every step of the way women were excluded from the "power ladder" and not because they wouldn't be ruthless but because traditional gender roles excluded them from getting anywhere near it.

Men did not fight over ideas, or "the R word", cultures did. Since women could not really gain power, it appeared simply that these were issues only the men were dealing with, and fighting over. But that paints a very simplistic view of history.

But getting us back to the point here. I guess the reason I focus so much on this is because people often make the mistake to blame genders for different problems in our culture. Instead culture itself, and this can be a problem if we go into circ discussions with the assumption that men are the problem, while I would say culture is the problem. This defuses the situation and I have seen many circ fights resolved by taking out the anger and blame.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Please keep the discusion on topic for CAC. Thanks.


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## jenP (Aug 22, 2002)

:

Welcome Sandy!

Interesting discussion between you and Perspective, I am enjoying both "perspectives."
OT but very interesting,the idea that boys are treated as "flawed girls" in our system.
While perhaps we should not make blanket statements about "men are this way," it might be said that IN OUR CULTURE men tend to be adamant about harming their sons because of their own bloody initiation into our culture. It really changes who they are as human beings, and in this case it could be said that their female partners (not having been mutilated themselves and therefore able to be more rational about it) really can have quite a role in helping the man to heal.
What I'm getting here, and this important point may be getting lost in the debate over what behaviors are inherently male or female, is that one way a woman can *help* her partner is to stand firm in protecting their sons. That when you stand firm in that sometimes huge battle, it may seem that you are pitting the son against the father and making the son the winner, but really you are helping the father get on the road to healing himself. So it isn't "choosing" one or the other, it is choosing the best for both, for the whole family.
I don't think we'll move forward in genital integrity rights until we figure out as individuals and as a society how to heal the men who have been harmed and are emotionally invested in passing it on to the next generation.
But my question is: Okay, we've established that a woman can help her partner heal and protect their sons, but what about women who are just as pro-circ as the men??? I don't mean women who are unaware of the harm involved and just let the man choose because they didn't know any better. I'm talking about women who have read the articles, seen the videos, been exposed to people who can explain the horrors and the human rights aspect, and STILL choose to side with their husband in insisting that circumcision is right, good, and best for their son. How can any healing for the man or the boy ever take place in THAT situation??

Jen


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## Mimi (Oct 8, 2008)

make him watch a circ video here in the recources section , any person who sees that will change their mind. seriosly.
if my dh made me do that (he is luckily 100% against it, never a discussion) i would leave him. yes, i would go that far. there are things that i will not do to my children,such as circ ,& i would choose that over dh.


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## kawa kamuri (Apr 19, 2006)

what would i do? i would end the relationship. i don't know what's right for other people but that's what would be right for me.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jenP* 
men tend to be adamant about harming their sons because of their own bloody initiation into our culture.

Actually I disagree. After talking to other circed guys, I think most of them pick circ because they feel like this is a decision that needs to be thought about. For many fathers, they feel fine with their penis. So for them its a situation where they think "Why take this unknown path, when I know I was circumcised, and I feel ok with it."

Of course the problem with this logic is that this is a choice being made out of fear for the unknown. Where consideration for what the boy wants is being pushed aside for "whats comfortable" for the parents. The problem is that with all the talk pro-circ parents make about the benefits, in reality they are doing little to no research into what it means to stay intact. And if any research is done, usually its looking for things that support the decision already made in their head.


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## jenP (Aug 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *perspective* 
Actually I disagree. After talking to other circed guys, I think most of them pick circ because they feel like this is a decision that needs to be thought about. For many fathers, they feel fine with their penis. So for them its a situation where they think "Why take this unknown path, when I know I was circumcised, and I feel ok with it."

Of course the problem with this logic is that this is a choice being made out of fear for the unknown. Where consideration for what the boy wants is being pushed aside for "whats comfortable" for the parents. The problem is that with all the talk pro-circ parents make about the benefits, in reality they are doing little to no research into what it means to stay intact. And if any research is done, usually its looking for things that support the decision already made in their head.

Actually, I think you do agree with me! Everything you just said is exactly what I meant.
When I spoke of the harm and the bloody initiation, I didn't mean to imply that the men actually see this as an important initiation ritual and actually have intent to harm their sons. I meant that the fact that they _were_ circumcised makes them emotionally invested in continuing with circumcision for the next generation. The whole "My penis is circumcised and it is GREAT! I love it, my sex partners love it... obviously circumcised is the way to go!" So, a little bit fear of the unknown ('cause intact seems odd to those who have never seen or experienced having it) and a little bit of what Treespeak so eloquently spoke of, the denial/repression of any issues from their own circumcision.
I guess what I meant was, often a parent who was circumcised feels a strong and emotional (rather than rational) need to do it to their children, whereas a parent who was not circumcised is more likely to see it as harmful to the child and to wish to protect the child from it. Because IN OUR CULTURE it is the men who are circumcised and the women who are not, we frequently see the men adamant about circumcising and a woman who is left feeling like she has to choose between her marriage or protecting her child. Not because of any gender-based differences in aggression vs. nurturing or ability to think logically or how much one sex or the other loves their children, but just a difference in worldview because of having been circumcised.
I hope that made some sense... I'm very tired
















Jen


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## Sandy Roman (Jul 7, 2008)

Some clarifications

_I dont see what evidence you have to show that "men tend to think this way, and women tend to think that way" beyond the influences of your own opinion._

Research has been done. I don't know where to find it. My point was simply that sexist bias in the male researchers initially made women look "less advanced in moral development" compared to men. -Similar to the "conquering sperm" scenario, that turns out to be quite inaccurate physiologically.
_

Are you trying to say what kept women from getting into real positions of power, was that they were not sleazy/ruthless enough? Men often were born into positions of power, if not that they had family legacies to fulfill. Often they had plans set up for them from birth. What do you think women could not have been clever enough to gain leadership positions? Every step of the way women were excluded from the "power ladder" and not because they wouldn't be ruthless but because traditional gender roles excluded them from getting anywhere near it._

Perspective, I don't think women are any less intelligent than men. And selfish and ruthless they can also do capably. I alas know personally some of these types. But I don't think it is "traditional gender roles" that have limited women historically, it is the inability to plan the timing and number of children and the attendant physical burden of gestation and nursing. These things do have an impact on energy level and "career opportunities" and would have been worse when families had 4-6 children. Gender roles added to that, but gestation and nursing are a "full time job". Sarah Palin, seems to have done well with G&N and politics, -as well as being sufficiently ruthless and clever. Hilliary Clinton is a more positive example to my mind, but types like these are rare.

_
Men did not fight over ideas, or "the R word", cultures did. Since women could not really gain power, it appeared simply that these were issues only the men were dealing with, and fighting over. But that paints a very simplistic view of history._

Men do fight more. And Women certainly are part of culture, but I think men do fight about "the R word", and culture and politics and sports more, than women. I think men are invested differently in these things _on average,_ than women are. (The fact that you and I are going on and on.... is anecdotal evidence of this.)

Women can wrestle, fight, argue and play sports too, no question.
I live in Pgh. where both genders routinely come to work dressed in Steelers jerseys.







This is a good thing. I myself find sports akin to Gladiator worship, -usually.

I think Baumeister could be right about culture, that men invest in it to stratify themselves and make themselves stand out, -so as to get the chance to reproduce.

He also points out that the "bell curve of ability" for men, *if it is wider* means that men will have the "geniuses" more often than women, and they might "top out" higher than women. The down side is that they also "bottom out" lower, more men with low abilities, who have limited choices.

Women (and men) *are often rightly critical of culture.* It does serve men better on average, than it serves women. Men argue about them more and maintaining any of the prevailing ones serves them better. It ain't right.

*Male Circumcision,*







to name a specific cultural ritual, apparently functioned to establish a *male* line of descent, _patrilinearity_ as primary and significant, to replace _matrilinearity,_ -which preceded it. Male circumcision, (and the lack of female circumcision or other female ritual) also marked the men as significant and special, in a way that was _not_ available to the women. And MGM was _required_ of the men.

So being intact undermines this hegemony as well as being kinder, and making for more intimate satisfying physical love as an adult.


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## Sandy Roman (Jul 7, 2008)

Jen,

_Welcome Sandy!_

Thank you. I do feel welcomed here by several, yours is especially nice.








_
it might be said that IN OUR CULTURE men tend to be adamant about harming their sons because of their own bloody initiation into our culture. It really changes who they are as human beings, and in this case it could be said that *their female partners* (not having been mutilated themselves and therefore able to be more rational about it) *really can have quite a role in helping the man to heal*._

Absolutely. Your paragraph above is quite correct to my mind. I think the trauma of circumcision is primarily stored in the preverbal limbic reptilian part of the brain. "Talking" to this part of the brain just doesn't happen readily if at all. It is a fight or flight subunit. Repeating circumcision on one's children makes it "OK" and "normal" for this violence to have been done to the father, as a child. Abuse perpetuates itself not logically, but in some physiologically based way. It only stops when the adult's cortex says strongly enough _"It has to stop with *me*. The BS stops here."_

Some men can get there on their own, but having a woman say assuredly, *"There is no way, Ain't gonna happen"* can matter a lot. Some say it fiercely, some say it quietly "from their core." That means, that man has to deal with the violence of circumcision that he went through, -without harming his children.

You say all this and more, beautifully above.

One's relation to ones children is unique. A spouse can be "replaced" in a way that a child cannot. I would leave a spouse who'd insist on harming my child with cutting, if I were the mother and the roles were reversed.

I was lucky, I just thought it was barbaric, but even if I had a partial or fully intersex child, *I was totally against genital "assignment" surgery.* -That makes the parents feel better and their life easier. It sucks for the child, and the adult they will become.

We don't get to have ideal or "perfect" children. There are no guarantees, accepting that, I think, is part of the deal. Risks with responsibilities.

_what about women who are just as pro-circ as the men??? I don't mean women who are unaware of the harm involved and just let the man choose because they didn't know any better. I'm talking about women who have read the articles, seen the videos, been exposed to people who can explain the horrors and the human rights aspect, and STILL choose to side with their husband in insisting that circumcision is right, good, and best for their son. How can any healing for the man or the boy ever take place in THAT situation??_

Well then it gets very personal and graphic, alas. There is no way around it.

It would be the same if we insisted on FGM to make women attractive, or removed their labia, or tightened their vaginas routinely to make them "better sexual partners." Keep pointing out that they have no *rational* reason to harm their child, and strip them of their sexuality. *They have the issue,* not the child. The are making a SEXUAL decision for someone, -who won't be having sex for decades.

They also are are unable to see men as they F*&#ing are, -and as they were *made* for F*#&ing. They have lost out too, and *big*time in having circumsized partners. Do some research, watch an adult videos, ask a European or Russian or Chinese neighbor.

OR tell them they should just, "Put your head in the sand, and cut it off! -So you'll feel better." It's not about the baby, that is for sure!
*
10 out of 10 babies oppose circumcision!*


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## Mimi (Oct 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sandy Roman* 
They have lost out too, and *big*time in having circumsized partners. Do some research, watch an adult videos, ask a European or Russian or Chinese neighbor.

or, ask me.








seirously, don't circ, future daughter in law will be thankful









(in all seriousness,though, if your husband won't even discuss harming your child in that way, i don't think he is even thinking about the decision. try to figure out why he wants to insist on it. if he doesn't change his mind, i personally would not stay, i would not let my baby get hurt. my husband said to me, when we found out that we were having a boy, "if you want him circed, there is no way,i am sorry,but i will leave you & i will fight for that baby", which, you know, made me a very proud wife. it was quite funny really, because we both thought we'd have to have this big argument when we actually agreed.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jenP* 
Actually, I think you do agree with me! Everything you just said is exactly what I meant.
When I spoke of the harm and the bloody initiation, I didn't mean to imply that the men actually see this as an important initiation ritual and actually have intent to harm their sons. I meant that the fact that they _were_ circumcised makes them emotionally invested in continuing with circumcision for the next generation. The whole "My penis is circumcised and it is GREAT! I love it, my sex partners love it... obviously circumcised is the way to go!" So, a little bit fear of the unknown ('cause intact seems odd to those who have never seen or experienced having it) and a little bit of what Treespeak so eloquently spoke of, the denial/repression of any issues from their own circumcision.
I guess what I meant was, often a parent who was circumcised feels a strong and emotional (rather than rational) need to do it to their children, whereas a parent who was not circumcised is more likely to see it as harmful to the child and to wish to protect the child from it. Because IN OUR CULTURE it is the men who are circumcised and the women who are not, we frequently see the men adamant about circumcising and a woman who is left feeling like she has to choose between her marriage or protecting her child. Not because of any gender-based differences in aggression vs. nurturing or ability to think logically or how much one sex or the other loves their children, but just a difference in worldview because of having been circumcised.
I hope that made some sense... I'm very tired
















Jen

I actually disagree with you slightly, but in an important way. I dont think men are emotionally invested in it as some form of delusion. I think men who are circumcised dont know anything else. They dont see it as such a extreme thing because unlike women and intact men, they have been living with a circed penis all their lives. For people outside this circ cycle its easier to move out of it, but for circed guys they are just jaded, so they see circ as normal.

For the latter two groups, having a intact boy is much more similar to their life experiences and its a more comfortable choice. Everyone goes with the comfortable choice.

All choices are comfortable to someone, as this issue shows. But whats important is not what is the comfortable choice, but what is the better choice. And when it comes to infant circ, the better choice is it not happening it at all.


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## BlessedMommy2006 (Dec 7, 2007)

Bumping this up, wondering how the OP and her DH are doing.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

I see in her siggy she is due with a blue bundle on 11/09 I to am curious how things are now.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

I sent her a little note letting her know we were curious about an update.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pdx.mothernurture* 
I sent her a little note letting her know we were curious about an update.









Thank you so much for the note!!

UPDATE:

As soon as I wrapped my head around what this issue really is about for me...everything kind of clicked with me and my husband and this whole argument evaporated....this is not about foreskin, cosmetic surgery for babies...or anything else that is commonly debated about the actual act of circ'ing a baby boy....this is about choice.

It is simply not my choice. My DD will not have her ears pierced until she asks for them to be pierced and my son will not be circ'd until the day he comes to me and says "I've done the research and I think that I'd like to have my foreskin removed" - period.

I don't permanently alter my childrens bodies under any circumstances (emergency surgeries aside)...I protect their bodies in as natural a state as possible...so that when they are old enough to take control of what happens to themselves physically...I am handing over a body which is as close to as clean, whole and perfect as the day they were born. That is why I feed them good, clean food and water...why they will have lots of time outdoors, running and playing...and why I will not cut, puncture, remove or hack at any part of their anatomy.

End of story!! I think it's easier for my husband to swallow as an issue of choice, as opposed to an issue of "we should do something different to our sons penis than your parents had done to yours" - you know? And I get that. I really do...I see how that would be easier.

I find that in my debates with people about circ, I've also replaced a lot of the fact, research and anti-circ passion, with questions about CHOICE...it makes sense to me and I think as we all continue to fight this fight, we should add that question more and more....who are WE to decide what to do to HIS sex organ?


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Thank you for the update







I agree with everything you said a hundred times over and hopefully your words will help others who find themselves in your position.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
who are WE to decide what to do to HIS sex organ?









:


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## Belle (Feb 6, 2005)

Wonderful! I'm glad that you and your dh came to an agreement on this.


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## Mary-Beth (Nov 20, 2001)

I don't think you are taking it too far.

I would compromise on many issues if need be, but not on this issue.

I hope you find your dh comes around. It sounds like he has.


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## BlessedMommy2006 (Dec 7, 2007)

Awesome update! So that hopefully means that DH is now on board with leaving little man intact?


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

He has kind of...let it go. I think he felt like he HAD to fight me on the issue when the issue was "I think that circ is mutilation" because in his mind that equaled "I think your penis has been mutilated and I won't do that to our son" - it was like a compulsive, defensive reaction.

Now that the issue isn't that anymore...now that I've made the issue "grosssss, why would I make a choice about my sons penis for him when it wasnt completely necessary!?" - it's easier for him to feel peace at that (we are VERY VERY into personal rights around here) and just sort of shrug his shoulders, say "I hadn't thought of it like that" and slink away!









SO. Yeah. THe more and more I think about it this way...the more all of these other facts become non-issues for me. I'm less struck that so many people would do something so unecessary...and more and more struck that so many people think it's their business to decide such a thing for their sons.

This change in perspective on this issue has caused me so much heartburn, for the fact that, when you are arguing the merits of circ with a circ'ing parent, you always arrive at a point where the parent says "Well, you believe what you believe and I believe what I believe...it's a personal choice" - at which point, the smart alec in me feels compelled to say "yes, it IS a personal decision...but how can one make a 'personal' decision about another human beings genitals?" -


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## DocsNemesis (Dec 10, 2005)

That's not really being a smart alec-its true. It is a personal choice...but the choice should be one of the owner of the penis, not his parents. They can't possibly KNOW what that child will want as an adult. Yes, they may not miss their foreskin...but some do. And many, many others would've been perfectly happy with one.

This is actually the biggest issue for me as well, except the pain. My boys arn't circ'd and I've made it very clear in my mind that if, as an adult, they've done the research and have decided they just don't like it as is, I will pay for the surgery myself. If it means THEY get to decide, its worth it.

Plus people tend to ignore the fact that as an adult, they get to decide exactly how much is removed, theres virtually no risk of taking *too much,* they get anesthesia, they get GOOD pain meds (I'm sorry but how many adult men would just take tylenol for that??), and they know exactly what is going on. And...most importantly....its their decision.


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## DocsNemesis (Dec 10, 2005)

Oh also, my fiance and I haven't talked a lot about circ, he knows my boys arn't and he doesn't seem disturbed by it (he changes my one year olds diapers quite often). He also seems to understand the fact that its no longer seen as needed, but when I got into the fact that it hurts the baby and it should be their choice anyway, he got very defensive and I just stopped the convo and changed subjects.

I think its VERY common for men to get defensive when it comes to the pain part and for a lot, the personal choice factor as well. He sees it as it was done to him and he's fine, he doesn't remember it, so why does it matter? And of course his parents had it done to him, which didn't give him a choice. I did explain that back then, it was done to almost everyone (although I do think rates were declining a bit-this was 87) and that they still thought there was medical benefits. Not that his parents were being cruel or something-they did what they thought was right.


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## tennisdude23 (Apr 2, 2008)

The rates were declining substantially since the early 80s.


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## serendipity22 (Sep 19, 2006)

IMO the bottom line is that being circed as an infant gives men an inferiority complex.

Some circed men find having an intact son very disturbing. It confronts them with their own circumcision.

Much easier to circ the son than face what was done to them.

If the man is mature enough he will wake up to this. Sometimes it doesn't take much to do this.


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## NaturalMindedMomma (Feb 5, 2007)

I see this as the inferiority complex. He said himself he LIKES his penis. By listening and agreeing to her information he is admitting the opposite.

I have said this 100 times over and have been flamed for it every time. I WOULD LEAVE MY HUSBAND FOR THIS.

If it was a baby girl in quetion for a circumcision, a woman would leave her husband in an instant and probably report him to the police. Just because our society has made male circ legal doesn't make it any less of a horrible thought.

If a man will not listen to his wife and make absolute statements about the child in question and what is done to said child, like he is the only say or authority because the child is male, he is being selfish and unreasonable. He is most likely hurting inside at the thought that he DID lose something and by admitting it, he is admitting he is not whole.

I feel for your husband. Do not allow your son to have the same issue.

I wanted to add, I think for many men, subconsciously, when they have a son it is like reliving the procedure. Like a rape victim would relive their trauma. A traumatic thing has been done to the genitals and if they admit it happened and it was wrong by not doing it to their son, they are then having to cope with and come to terms with a trauma they have never probably given much thought to before.

I did want to add to the OP, I understand how hard this must be and while I agree I would also leave my husband for the same. I am not in the same situation. My husband is uncirced and we BOTH know the benefits. While I am CERTAIN I would leave a man for this, I still feel for you and how hard this must be on you. ((HUGS))


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## NaturalMindedMomma (Feb 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *serendipity22* 
IMO the bottom line is that being circed as an infant gives men an inferiority complex.

Some circed men find having an intact son very disturbing. It confronts them with their own circumcision.

Much easier to circ the son than face what was done to them.

If the man is mature enough he will wake up to this. Sometimes it doesn't take much to do this.

read this after I posted but ITA!


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## lynsage (Jul 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Belle* 
Wonderful! I'm glad that you and your dh came to an agreement on this.


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## Anastasiya (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NaturalMindedMomma* 
I have said this 100 times over and have been flamed for it every time. I WOULD LEAVE MY HUSBAND FOR THIS.

If it was a baby girl in quetion for a circumcision, *a woman would leave her husband in an instant and probably report him to the police.* Just because our society has made male circ legal doesn't make it any less of a horrible thought.

I completely disagree that for certain a woman would leave her husband in an instant and probably report him to the police. I wouldn't necessarily do that.

You are leaving out the whole context of what's "normal" in a society and how people are made to see things certain ways.

American men - lots and lots of them - have no concept that male circ is wrong, that it's damaging, that it's really all that painful, etc. To them it's the norm. No questions asked. Our sociey, our culture, even our medical professionals have ingrained this in them.

NOW, imagine if that husband were originally from an African tribe that circ'd its _daughters_. That's all he would know. His society, his culture, his medical professionals have ingrained it into him that this is the norm. This is what you do. So if he wanted to circ our daughter? Would I leave him over that? No. Would I turn him into the police? No. I'd EDUCATE him. Even in the end if he didn't agree, didn't understand, I'd hope that one day he would....but I'd also realize that his _culture_ placed this idea into him, it wasn't his own doing.

I would think a man who thought circ was the norm for his son would be treated the same way - respectfully educated but not divorced or turned into the police! Remember - for some American men, circ is all they know. It's all they understand.

Now, if some crazy American husband told his wife, "Hey, let's circ our daughter," then yeah, I could see your point. Because that would be something that completely goes against our culture and what society and our medical professionals have ingrained it us. Female circ = assault, perversion, etc. In that case, I'd think he was sick and I'd probably leave him. But no, I wouldn't leave a husband who wanted _male_ circ because that desire doesn't equal him being sick or perverse, just "normal" by society's standards, and it's not his fault that this culture has ingrained the "necessity" of male circumcision so deeply into his head.

Of course, I wouldn't give in to the circ. And I'd be sad, and disappointed in my husband's lack of understanding, but I'd continue trying to teach him, all the while protecting my son.


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## NaturalMindedMomma (Feb 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sancta* 
I completely disagree that for certain a woman would leave her husband in an instant and probably report him to the police. I wouldn't necessarily do that.

You are leaving out the whole context of what's "normal" in a society and how people are made to see things certain ways.

American men - lots and lots of them - have no concept that male circ is wrong, that it's damaging, that it's really all that painful, etc. To them it's the norm. No questions asked. Our sociey, our culture, even our medical professionals have ingrained this in them.

NOW, imagine if that husband were originally from an African tribe that circ'd its _daughters_. That's all he would know. His society, his culture, his medical professionals have ingrained it into him that this is the norm. This is what you do. So if he wanted to circ our daughter? Would I leave him over that? No. Would I turn him into the police? No. I'd EDUCATE him. Even in the end if he didn't agree, didn't understand, I'd hope that one day he would....but I'd also realize that his _culture_ placed this idea into him, it wasn't his own doing.

I would think a man who thought circ was the norm for his son would be treated the same way - respectfully educated but not divorced or turned into the police! Remember - for some American men, circ is all they know. It's all they understand.

Now, if some crazy American husband told his wife, "Hey, let's circ our daughter," then yeah, I could see your point. Because that would be something that completely goes against our culture and what society and our medical professionals have ingrained it us. Female circ = assault, perversion, etc. In that case, I'd think he was sick and I'd probably leave him. But no, I wouldn't leave a husband who wanted _male_ circ because that desire doesn't equal him being sick or perverse, just "normal" by society's standards, and it's not his fault that this culture has ingrained the "necessity" of male circumcision so deeply into his head.

Of course, I wouldn't give in to the circ. And I'd be sad, and disappointed in my husband's lack of understanding, but I'd continue trying to teach him, all the while protecting my son.

I would try to teach someone to a certain point. I do it every day with others, I have educated MANY! I understand the stance of our medical professionals and our society has a role in their stance, but the person I am with? If there was absolutely no gettting through I would leave him and find a way to protect my child. PERIOD.

There was a point where I thought circing was normal, better, cleaner and all that, SOCIETY ingrained that in ME TOO, but I am not beyond understanding relevant and obvious statistical information and American men and people are not beyond that.

As for the African tribe point: I would not marry a man who still believed in the merits of circing a female or a male. Obviously some women do not discuss this prior to marriage or have the stance on it either way when childless and dating, but if in that situation I WOULD LEAVE. My absolute statement should have said *MOST WOMEN*, forgive me. But cultural normality aside, I could care less what society or culture says, when it comes to my childs body and their rights, there is no excusing harming my child and I would not afford anyone understanding in trying to or agreeing with hurting my children. POINT. BLANK. PERIOD. I still would not tolerate my partner wanting to circ and being so dead set for it and not looking at verifiable and accurate information and realizing it is correct. Personally I could not be with that person and would find a way to safeguard my child from them.

OP I am glad you are at peace and it seems as though you understood my exact point (as well as many others). This is a source of hurt for your DH, who seems like a really stand up guy. Congrats on your little boy!


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## AngelsNPrayers (Dec 30, 2010)

Cultural psychosis- brilliant lmao


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## jenP (Aug 22, 2002)

Glad for you and your Dh and child, OP!!

I am always surprised at the number of people here who say they are against circ because it takes away a personal choice, and that if their son, when of age, decides he wants to have it done, they will *fully support him and pay for it*. This just blows my mind. Would they also support their daughter who wanted a labioplasy or a clitoridectomy? Son or daughter, I would be very sad if they wanted to radically alter their perfectly normal genitals. I would feel I had failed as a parent to instill in them pride and happiness with their normal bodies. I would feel the same if they wanted to get ANY kind of radical cosmetic surgery, but especially radical genital surgery, because it affects not just looks but FUNCTION. I would support their right as an adult to choose; however, I would not be in favor of the choice they were making. Not that I would go around nagging them about it; it IS their choice, but I wouldn't be "supporting" that choice and I CERTAINLY would not pay for it! Search around the net for "extreme body modifications." How many of these would you PAY for your child to have done to his/her body?


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## MyBoysBlue (Apr 27, 2007)

I always think the same thing jenP. When people say they would pay. I just don't get it.


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## Cyllya (Jun 10, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jenP*
> 
> I am always surprised at the number of people here who say they are against circ because it takes away a personal choice, and that if their son, when of age, decides he wants to have it done, they will *fully support him and pay for it*. This just blows my mind. Would they also support their daughter who wanted a labioplasy or a clitoridectomy? Son or daughter, I would be very sad if they wanted to radically alter their perfectly normal genitals. I would feel I had failed as a parent to instill in them pride and happiness with their normal bodies. I would feel the same if they wanted to get ANY kind of radical cosmetic surgery, but especially radical genital surgery, because it affects not just looks but FUNCTION. I would support their right as an adult to choose; however, I would not be in favor of the choice they were making. Not that I would go around nagging them about it; it IS their choice, but I wouldn't be "supporting" that choice and I CERTAINLY would not pay for it! Search around the net for "extreme body modifications." How many of these would you PAY for your child to have done to his/her body?


Well, for people who prefer men to be circumcised (for religion?) but just don't want to impugn their kid's human rights, it makes sense.

Personally, I'd be equally supportive regardless of the child's sex--which means give them moral support but not money.


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## SpiderMum (Sep 13, 2008)

I would leave any man who insisted that I mutilate my child in any fashion. That is NOT the action of a loving father....that is the act of a closed-minded child who can't face his own demons and needs to desperately. He has NO RIGHT to alter his son's penis, end of story. I would absolutely divorce my husband if need be.


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## 2lilsweetfoxes (Apr 11, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SpiderMum*
> 
> I would leave any man who insisted that I mutilate my child in any fashion. That is NOT the action of a loving father....that is the act of a closed-minded child who can't face his own demons and needs to desperately. He has NO RIGHT to alter his son's penis, end of story. I would absolutely divorce my husband if need be.


What is to stop him from taking your son and having it done behind your back during visitation? (The same response I give to people who say: my husband insists on spanking, CIO, etc.)


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