# Is this too harsh of a punishment?



## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

The other night at the park, 4 y.o. DD threw a really bad tantrum as we were leaving (because I would not let her ride another child's bike to our car). I told her that if she could not calm down (I could not get her into the car and she was screaming and trying to run away from me in the parking lot) then we were not going to playgroup for a week, because this is the second playgroup meltdown in several weeks. She did not stop, though I was able to get her into the car and buckled into her carseat, where she was at least safe.

Fast forward to this afternoon. Someone in playgroup is hosting a pizza party. We canceled our RSVP because I told DD no playgroup for a week, and I feel like I have to follow through. Some of the other playgroup moms commented that they felt like no playgroup for a week was too harsh a punishment (we're talking like 1-2 events here, not 7 days jam packed with activities), and that I should have let her go to the pizza party. Today at school, DD's friend got picked up early for the pizza party, and she told DD that she was going to the party, which made DD start crying at school. So when I picked her up, the teacher asked if she would be ok, and I said she would be fine, that she had gotten in trouble, and her punishment was that she could not go to the pizza party. The teacher commented that it seemed kind of harsh, and I was like, well, I set out the rules for her, and she broke them, and I have to be consistent and stick to the punishment. DD was happy and cheerful when I picked her up, btw.

I really don't think that making her stay home from a playgroup event after tantrums at two other playgroup events is really all that harsh. It seems as close to natural consequences as I could get -- if you can't behave at playgroup, then you can't go to playgroup. (Leaving the park at the time of the tantrum would not really have been 'punishment' as we were already on our way to the car when she threw the tantrum.)

Her friend's mom at school told her that they were going to a family party, and that's why DD was not going, so in the car, when DD told me that, I said no, it was a playgroup party, and the reason that she wasn't going was because of her tantrum the other night. Then she started screaming at me, and I calmly explained that it was exactly *that* kind of behavior that was causing her to have to stay home, because I cannot take her to someone's house if she is behaving like that. She quieted down and said ok, and then was fine after that, and has been fine all afternoon.

Did I handle this ok? WWYD? I always feel like I suck at this discipline stuff...


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I really don't think that was appropriate.

In general I am not in favor of punishments. They are random and meaningless and smack of authority for the sake of authority.

The fit at the park did not relate to the pizza party in any way. It seems more like you are trying to get back at her for inconveniencing you which seems more childish than the fit.

Not going to another event is not a natural consequence at all. *Perhaps* a logical one, but not a natural one.

A natural consequence would be her friends seeing her throw a fit or banging her knee on the pavement as she was thrashing.

This was clearly a punishment, not a consequence. It was parent imposed.

She's only 4. She's going to throw fits. It's your job to help her negotiate her feelings, not punish her for them.

-Angela


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

Forgot to add..

I think that a huge part of the problem also was that she was very tired by the time the whole thing went down, she had been at school all day and then we went to the park after, so by the time we went home, I'm sure she was really exhausted. She will go and go and go until you make her stop, she does not want to miss anything. We are def. not going to do any more playgroup stuff on school days, at least for a while, because I think it is too much for her to handle in one day.

Off to read replies...


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

I think it is WAY too much.

4 year olds have melt downs. I can't imagine punishing my son like that because he was disappointed that we were leaving Playgroup.

Your daughter didn't even understand WHY she wasn't going to the party .
She probably does not remember even throwing the fit originally.

This seems to be about control...."You do what I say, when I say, or you will suffer the consequences. Maybe then you will learn to do what I say"

That seems like the kind of thinking behind this punishment.

Is it really THAT horrible to have your 4 yo throw a fit?

Why?
Does it embarrass you that she isn't "Under Control" and doing what you ask? Does it seem like she is the only one who does it?

You should figure out why this is so upsetting for you. Because this really is typical of many 4 yo kids, and I am sure that she will outgrow it. But you don;t want to damage your relationship by being punitive about this...

And please don't think that I am trying to be snarky...GD has been a LONG rocky road for me and I am learning every day. I certainly don't think I am any better than you.


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
The fit at the park did not relate to the pizza party in any way. It seems more like you are trying to get back at her for inconveniencing you which seems more childish than the fit.

Just wanted to respond to this. I see what you're saying, but I disagree - believe me, *I* would have loved to go too. I'm a single mom and don't get a lot of adult time, so by us not going, I'm missing out on some much needed social interaction for myself. It's not about getting back at her, it's about a desperate need and desire to not only get to the bottom of what's causing the behavior, but to teach her to more constructively communicate her feelings, rather than resorting to screaming and hitting.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Screaming and hitting eh?

I don't know, it's hard for me to say because I was not there. I know with my child, there are temper tantrums that seem reasonable to me, like I get that she is upset and freaking out and can't control her emotions in that moment. In those times I am able to be empathic and understanding and help her through.

Then there is another class of tantrum that is about raging upon the other party (um, me). Screaming in an aggressive way, yes hitting has played a part sometimes, just freaking out in a manner that is way out of proportion to what is going on and that seems designed to communicate anger in a really disrespectful, 'gonna make everyone miserable' sort of way.

That kind of temper tantrum I might respond to in a similar way as you did.

I don't know about the connection of consequences, again coz I don't know your kid. Mine I would feel comfortable explaining that we're not doing xyz because of abc last week. Ideally a more direct consequence would be best, but sometimes it doesn't work out like that. And also *I* might genuinely not feel like taking the little screamer to a playdate after dealing with two major, aggressive meltdowns recently, yk? In which case, I would not do it and would explain why, and I myself would be perfectly comfortable with that.


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
Is it really THAT horrible to have your 4 yo throw a fit?

Why?
Does it embarrass you that she isn't "Under Control" and doing what you ask? Does it seem like she is the only one who does it?

You should figure out why this is so upsetting for you. Because this really is typical of many 4 yo kids, and I am sure that she will outgrow it. But you don;t want to damage your relationship by being punitive about this...

And please don't think that I am trying to be snarky...GD has been a LONG rocky road for me and I am learning every day. I certainly don't think I am any better than you.









Oh goodness no, she's not the only one. If I had a dime for every time I saw someone leave the park or a store with a screaming child, well...you know.


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

lab, I don't think that sounds too harsh. It sounds like you were afraid for her safety and tried to get a "logical" consequence. You didn't ground her from all fun for a week or take her favorite toys. I agree with you that running off in a parking lot is not ok, it's scary. I think you did fine and can move on from here. 4 y/o's do throw tantrums, but that doesn't mean you can't ever try and set some limits. Maybe she needs a break from all that activity too?


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## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

I still struggle sometimes with punishment vs. discipline, so I'm going to go through your post using the questions I ask myself.

_What do you want to teach her?_
Not to throw fits at play dates.

_Why does she throw fits at the end of playdates?_
Because she's tired and overstimulated.

_Does this teach her not to be tired and overstimulated?_
No...............but it keeps her from being tired and overstimulated. But then she knows she's missing something exciting/fun, and she's sad.

_Ok, so what do you want to teach her?_
Not to throw fits! To handle her feelings differently!

_What are some ways to teach her to handle her feelings better?_

And that, that is the million dollar question right now. So.....some ways to help her handle her feelings...

*Empathise* - "It's hard to leave when you're having fun, isn't it?"

*Easy transitions* - "We need to leave to go start dinner. We're having lasagna tonight! Yum! Do you want to help with the sauce?"

*Teaching calm down methods* - deep breaths, practicing good-byes and role playing with dolls, verbalizing her frustration..

I'm sure the mamas here can come up with a ton of great ideas to add to this!


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

In our house that would be an appropriate punishment.

If you cannot control yourself at a playgroup function then you do not get to go to playgroup. It is a fun event and if their behavior makes it unfun for others then they don't get to go.


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Screaming and hitting eh?

Yeah. I mean, I'm used to tantrums, but she was _pissed_. She will usually scream and cry when she is upset, but she was physical, which really threw me, because I am not used to that. At one point when I was trying to get her out of the street, I was holding her, and she kicked my car hard enough that I lost my balance and almost sent the both of us tumbling into the road, but I caught myself at the last minute. Once I had her in the car, she was fighting me to try to get back out of the car, and she was flailing her arms and hit me across the face, which sent my glasses flying (luckily I caught them before they hit the ground!) Also, at some point during the struggle to get her out of the parking area and into the car, I dropped my cell phone (and did not realize it until I got home!), and had to end up getting someone to watch her after she went to sleep so that I could comb the park with a flashlight to find my cell phone. Then on the whole ride home, she told me she wanted to live with her daddy (who visits her maybe 2x a year), and I know she's 4 and does not mean it and does not understand, but that still stings a bit.

FWIW, she's doing great, and I'm glad we didn't go to the pizza party. She was pretty tired after school, and we've been having a good time vegging out and watching cartoons together today.


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Those things don't always work(calm down methods). I have one child that transitioned well. She needed extra support sometimes and those ideas were appropriate. My son threw terrible tantrums at times. I empathized *all the time* It broke my heart to see him that upset. BUT, we still had to leave places or GO places and sometimes I imposed limits. It seemed to help him think about his actions. I never felt he was being asked to reason more than he was ready to. He was able to remeber that "last time I screamed at the top of my lungs at leaving the store, we couldn't go see the kitties next at PetSmart because everyone was too upset." Those kinds of things made sense to him. Sometimes we just had to be creative. I think the OP deserves some support and listening to. 4 is a hard age in some ways.


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## its_our_family (Sep 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby* 
Yeah. I mean, I'm used to tantrums, but she was _pissed_. She will usually scream and cry when she is upset, but she was physical, which really threw me, because I am not used to that.

FWIW, she's doing great, and I'm glad we didn't go to the pizza party. She was pretty tired after school, and we've been having a good time vegging out and watching cartoons together today.









Then it was definetely appropriate, considering you would be looking at a similar situation afte rthe party given how tired you say she is.

I'm glad that the two of you are having a good tantrum free evening!!


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

What I can see this punishment accomplishing:
Making her feel bad that she's a kid who sometimes loses it.
Making her feel like you don't accept that sometimes she's less than perfect.
Making her resent you because you took away the party.

What I can't see this punishment accomplishing:
Making her more able to control herself when she's too tired to do so.
Giving her greater emotional maturity than she has at this age.

How it would have gone down at our house... If the party was right after the park we would have gone home - not as a means of trying to teach a lesson but because clearly we were too tired and it just wasn't going to be a good plan for the day.

If it had been on another day, we'd have gotten out of the park the best we could. I would have acknowledged that we all have days where we make mistakes. I would resolve to next time try to avoid going to the park when we are overtired or over hungry. I would acknowledge that after the child probably feels embarrassed or sad about their behavior too. Before we go to the park next time I'd spend a bit of time planning together how we'd like that to go including talking about a peaceful exit strategy. We'd talk about "leaving on a happy note" and we'd have a plan for something desirable in the car (a snack, a music tape to listen to and we'd talk about that plan). I'd make sure we hit the park rested enough to implement the peaceful exit strategy. I'd hope that would help, but I'd know that four year olds are four they aren't forty and it may not go the way I wish. Sometimes the park will be left in tears. And, so it goes.


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## loriforeman (Aug 18, 2007)

i would consider it quite harsh.

when we expect our over-tired toddlers to be on their best behavior, we're setting them up for failure. they really only have just so much control at that age...

if she threw her fit well-rested, that might be a different story. but i'd still just ignore it...


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I think some things (days? events?) simply need to be forgiven and forgotten. No punishment necessary. Everyone has crappy times/days/events/moments. We might need a little extra stroking "Wow. That must have caught you off guard! Sometimes our emotions get the better of us, huh?"

The end.


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## goodheartedmama (Feb 1, 2007)

there's a big difference between punishments and discipline. I'm not a fan of punishments...they serve no better purpose, IMO.

However, we all make mistakes...I would be honest with her and apologize, and talk with her about better ways to handle the situation (both of you) in the future.


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## astrophe27 (Aug 27, 2007)

I think it is fine. And maybe not the BEST solution ever, but certainly fine, and you know what? In the heat of the moment when the main thing seems to be safety, we don't all always pick the best. But I do agree in having picked it, you carry it out.

She's not going to be terribly damaged or something to miss playgroup this week.

That whole part of it is now water under the bridge.

More important, I think you hit upon the thing to better manage her so it doesn't happen again:

Quote:

I think that a huge part of the problem also was that she was very tired by the time the whole thing went down, she had been at school all day and then we went to the park after, so by the time we went home, I'm sure she was really exhausted. She will go and go and go until you make her stop, she does not want to miss anything. We are def. not going to do any more playgroup stuff on school days, at least for a while, because I think it is too much for her to handle in one day.
She's not of an age where she can tell for herself when too much is too much, so you have to do it for her -- set her up for success! So in future... no more afterschool playgroup things because it wears her out to the point of crazy.

GL!
A.


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## Ambrose (Apr 20, 2004)

I don't think it's too harsh. She seemed to understand and accept that the reason she couldn't go to the party was because of the aggressive attitude she had when you pointed it out in the car.


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby* 
this is the second playgroup meltdown in several weeks.

About a year ago DD1 did this _every single time_ we went to a friend's house, friends left our house, we needed to leave her cousin's house, or we needed to go home from anywhere that she was having fun. It went on for months and months, and nothing I tried made it better. I showed empathy, I figured it was "just a bad day," I gave her ample warning before we left, I helped her "finish" what she was doing so she could feel ready to leave, _everything_!! I really was patient and tried to be as understanding about it as I could be.

The only thing that worked was for us to stop getting into situations where she would tantrum when it was time to leave. For me that also meant I didn't get to socialize and hang out with my friends sometimes. Once she realized her friends were getting together for lunch at So-n-So's house, but we weren't going because she would throw a tantrum when we left, the tantrums were diminished.

She still needs help transitioning. I give her warning before it's time to go. Sometimes she starts up one of her tantrums when it's time to go home, and I have to figure out a way to connect with her and calm her down. But she understands the ultimate consequence is that we avoid situations where she'll melt down upon leaving. She's grown out of it a little bit, but I also think missing out on some fun things helped her understand.

Also, she has a little sister, so often I was trying to get myself, all our things, the baby, and the raging 4-yr-old out to the car safely. It was impossible to do in certain situations depending on where the car was parked, etc. which was another reason we had to stop going out.


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## veggijessie (Aug 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *its_our_family* 
In our house that would be an appropriate punishment.

If you cannot control yourself at a playgroup function then you do not get to go to playgroup. It is a fun event and if their behavior makes it unfun for others then they don't get to go.









:

My thoughts exactly.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veggijessie* 







:

My thoughts exactly.

And at the risk of shutting this thread down, I would suggest that is an absolutely **assinine** attitude. 4 yr olds do not need 'punishment". They need our love and compassion and our *adult* thinking to reassure them when they are weepy and needy.


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## amaretto (Aug 16, 2007)

I cannot say if it was harsh or inappropriate because I do not know your DD. But it was certainly ineffective.

I believe it was punishment and I believe punishment reinforces the bad behaviour. I still remember my own tantrums and I remember I felt like I had very good reasons to behave like that. No punishment would change my attitude. But I think it would make a huge difference if someone acknowledged my feelings and helped me handle them.

Although I have figured this out, my first thought about alike situations is punitive. I also think I should punish myself for this thought. I guess before parenting my children I should parent myself.

Roar's approach would be my second thought and hopefully the one to prevail.


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## jeteaa (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprildawn* 
The only thing that worked was for us to stop getting into situations where she would tantrum when it was time to leave. For me that also meant I didn't get to socialize and hang out with my friends sometimes. Once she realized her friends were getting together for lunch at So-n-So's house, but we weren't going because she would throw a tantrum when we left, the tantrums were diminished.

that sounds to me like what the OP was trying to do. And if it worked for you, maybe if the OP sticks with it, it will work for them (if this is a consistent issue).


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## jeteaa (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom* 
And at the risk of shutting this thread down, I would suggest that is an absolutely **assinine** attitude. 4 yr olds do not need 'punishment". They need our love and compassion and our *adult* thinking to reassure them when they are weepy and needy.

why do you think this thread would be shut down? I think the OP's situation is VERY common. If your 14 yr old was drinking at a party, would you let him/her go to another party the next night? So if somewhere between 4 and 14 its ok to use this "punishment".... I would like to know when that is.


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## mommy2AandZ (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby* 
Forgot to add..

I think that a huge part of the problem also was that she was very tired by the time the whole thing went down, she had been at school all day and then we went to the park after, so by the time we went home, I'm sure she was really exhausted. ...

I think you hit the nail on the head. My son only throws tantrums when he is WAY overtired. He has a relaxed personality, so for him to have a meltdown means he is tired. I don't punish ect. for meltdowns, because for the simple fact they can't be controlled. I have meltdowns when I'm overtired. It's my responsibility to help my child get the sleep he needs, so I think of his meltdown as my failure to get him proper sleep. Although now a days it's easier said than done since he won't nap most days, even though he should.

I also think it was too harsh just for the simple fact that I don't think during a meltdown they can think "logically" about a consequnce. I agree the pizza party had nothing to do with this meltdown.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom* 
They need our love and compassion and our *adult* thinking to reassure them when they are weepy and needy.

Weepy and needy not nec the same thing as screaming and hitting, tho.....

I agree with the overall tone of this thread. It probably isn't the best approach, but it isn't horribly harsh imo. And, in fact, your dd seemed to have handled it well and even seemed to make the connection.

At 4, and still now at 6, preventing the meltdown is always preferable to dealing with the meltdown. But I am finding that (for me) there needs to be some limits on what kind of emotional outbursts are acceptable, even during meltdowns. I think it is ok to make clear that hitting isn't acceptable. Telling my dd that for years, with all the explanations about how it hurts (like she doesn't know) and giving other options, hasn't stopped the hitting. So, yes, we do give consequences for hitting mommy in rage, even in they aren't natural consequences.


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

I don't make a thing of tantrums. I'd have put her in the car and gone home. I don't punish tantrums.


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## mamajessica (Sep 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom* 
And at the risk of shutting this thread down, I would suggest that is an absolutely **assinine** attitude. 4 yr olds do not need 'punishment". They need our love and compassion and our *adult* thinking to reassure them when they are weepy and needy.

Wow, thanks for posting this. I was reading and scratching my head, wondering what has happened to Mothering since I last left the PDX forum...


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I am going to ignore those posters who think it's fine to punish 4 yr olds--- or who think punishments are effective for any age. (ignore)

If a child is feeling overwhelmed, then we need to realize that punishing a small child who is tired is sort if like a partner punishing you because had a long and sucky day and fell apart. To a partner you might understand that shit happens-- that he/she needs comfort. If an adult warrents and benefits from kindness, does a child warrent less? (OP, not talking to you here, you asked and I totally respect your asking).

Not in my book. A tired child needs love and compassion even * if * they freak out-- or does whatever else is deemed so horrible that a punishment must be carried over several days hence. ( If a partner would punish you over several days, how long would you stay in such a relationship?)

When an adult loses it (I am not talking murdering an ex wife and her friend while the dog barks incessantly, leaving two children without a mother) we hope that the person who loves us most takes us in his/her arms, lets us know we are not the devil incarnate, and says "Baby, I love you. You had a sucky day, sweets. Let's forget this crummy crap happend. Let's go for a massage, a glass of wine, and a nice dinner. When we get back, I'll rub your feet, run you a nice bath, and then do whatever you tell me to do".

That's what regular, non- serial killer people who are in pain need. That's what many of us wish from loves when the day totally bites ass.

Kids get squat...they get to carry their miserable days over into endless punishments. However, if an adult in a good relationship has a bad day, it's a different story, they expect some love and understanding.

If one thinks a child 4 years into the world deserves something more severe than our compassion, I dont know what to tell any of you.


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## RileysmamaNM (May 10, 2007)

I wouldent beat yourself up over it, just learn from the experience.


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
Weepy and needy not nec the same thing as screaming and hitting, tho.....

Thank you for recognizing that. This was not the type of a meltdown where she was crying over a box of popsicles at the grocery store. This went way beyond that to the point where she was a danger to herself and others. Just getting her strapped into the carseat (which was a necessity at that point so that she did not injure herself) took 2-3 minutes because I could not physically restrain her. It was not in any way possible for me to talk through *anything* with her at that point because she was so completely over the edge. For normal tantrums, talking through it is our normal strategy.

Now that we have a bit of distance from this, we've talked about it as well, and how she felt, what made her so upset, how we can handle it differently in the future, etc. She does understand that Mama felt that it was not a good idea to go tonight because of what happened the other night, and we talked about it and she's ok with it, and she even came up with better ways to handle the situation should it arise again.

FWIW, I don't feel like I've damaged my relationship with her (ouch!) and I am certain that she doesn't feel that way either.

Thanks to everyone for the support and advice. It's given me a lot to think about.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
Weepy and needy not nec the same thing as screaming and hitting, tho......

In the case of a 4 yr old? Oh, but they are. They absolutely are.


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## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

If you're saying that she's too tired after school to go to a playgroup event, and that's what led to the tantrum, I would just tell her that rather than calling it a punishment. As a punishment for a 4-year-old, it does seem pretty harsh, but my oldest is only 2.5 and I certainly get the impulse and have said things myself that were harsher than warranted, due to my own frustration, feelings of impotence, exhaustion, etc.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby* 
and I have to be consistent and stick to the punishment. .

I did want to challenge this idea.....

I think it is totally ok to regret something you threaten in the heat of the moment and take it back. Apologize, explain, and simply take it back if you think that is the best thing to do.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
I did want to challenge this idea.....

I think it is totally ok to regret something you threaten in the heat of the moment and take it back. Apologize, explain, and simply take it back if you think that is the best thing to do.









:


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## jeteaa (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom* 
I am going to ignore those posters who think it's fine to punish 4 yr olds--- or who think punishments are effective for any age. (ignore)

I think this is a petty and immature attitude to take in a general discussion about GD. GD is a complex parenting skill. If those of you can share your GD wisdom, great. But be civil about it!

moving on... I think there IS A AGE though where a child can choose. If you act like "this" or do "that" at the park/ or playgroup etc. Then you don't get to do playgroup. If you draw in the library books, then you don't get to check out library books..... how is this punishment? When they are teens, if they get pulled over for speeding, they get a ticket, and I think the parents should take the car way for a period of time. So how is this diferent from the OPs situation? NOW please don't be cruel, I'm trying to ask a serious GD question.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeteaa* 
why do you think this thread would be shut down? I think the OP's situation is VERY common. *If your 14 yr old was drinking at a party, would you let him/her go to another party the next night? So if somewhere between 4 and 14 its ok to use this "punishment".... I would like to know when that is.*

That is comparing apples and oranges. children of completely different ages. And I don;t think in the situation that you described the 14 yo is being punished...that sounds like natural consequences. That the 14 yo would understand.

We are talking about a 4 yo kid who was taken to a play date that she was too tired for in the first place. Surprise...she has a tantrum when it is over, and is punished for a week as a result. I don't understand the logic behind this, other than making sure she doesn't "get away with acting like that"


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
We are talking about a 4 yo kid who was taken to a play date that she was too tired for in the first place. Surprise...she has a tantrum when it is over, and is punished for a week as a result. I don't understand the logic behind this, other than making sure she doesn't "get away with acting like that"

Let me clarify.

She did not melt down because we were leaving. She was fine when we left. She melted down when she took another child's bike, and I asked her to get off the bike because we were leaving, and we also did not know the child who owned the bike, and we did not ask their permission first. She was fine until we were almost to the car, when she suddenly threw herself on the ground and it all started from there...delayed reaction, perhaps?









She was not "punished for a week." The only thing that has been taken away are her playgroup outings (1 so far, and AFAIK there are none scheduled for a while) for one week. Other than that, she has not had any other restrictions. She has been to the park, plays outside, has all of her toys, even got a treat at the store yesterday. She has not been locked in her room for a week, or anything like that.









I would like to ask that if people want to disagree, that they could at least offer some advice, because I'm feeling a lot of criticism, but not a whole lotta help. There have been some great ideas, but I'm also feeling like some people are quick to point fingers without offering any real solutions, which really doesn't help anything. So please, if you just want to point out what a crappy mom you think I am, keep it to yourself. Thanks.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeteaa* 
_<snip>_
I think there IS A AGE though where a child can choose. If you act like "this" or do "that" at the park/ or playgroup etc. Then you don't get to do playgroup. If you draw in the library books, then you don't get to check out library books..... how is this punishment? When they are teens, if they get pulled over for speeding, they get a ticket, and I think the parents should take the car way for a period of time. So how is this diferent from the OPs situation? NOW please don't be cruel, I'm trying to ask a serious GD question.

Having an emotional melt down is completely different from breaking the law or destroying property.

I don;t think that a tantrum needs "consequences" other than the natural ones...like if you throw a tantrum in the store we are leaving. That doesn't mean you don;t get to go to the store again, just that we are leaving right now.

That is the difference.

In this family it is okay for people to have a bad moment and lose their cool. I know I don't always make the best choices when I am upset, why would I hold my 4 yo to a higher standard?

We also don't punish/make consequences for bed wetting, spilled milk, potty accidents etc as we see all of these things as part of being 4 and part of being human. We will help Owen fix these things and offer some guidance, but no punishing.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby* 
Let me clarify.

She did not melt down because we were leaving. She was fine when we left. She melted down when she took another child's bike, and I asked her to get off the bike because we were leaving, and we also did not know the child who owned the bike, and we did not ask their permission first. She was fine until we were almost to the car, when she suddenly threw herself on the ground and it all started from there...delayed reaction, perhaps?









She was not "punished for a week." The only thing that has been taken away are her playgroup outings (1 so far, and AFAIK there are none scheduled for a while) for one week. Other than that, she has not had any other restrictions. She has been to the park, plays outside, has all of her toys, even got a treat at the store yesterday. She has not been locked in her room for a week, or anything like that.









I would like to ask that if people want to disagree, that they could at least offer some advice, because I'm feeling a lot of criticism, but not a whole lotta help. There have been some great ideas, but I'm also feeling like some people are quick to point fingers without offering any real solutions, which really doesn't help anything. So please, if you just want to point out what a crappy mom you think I am, keep it to yourself. Thanks.

My post was not trying to jab at you...it was in response to the pp comparing your situation with a 14 year old going out and partying. Which are totally different, IMO.

I think that people are debating about the appropriate way too handle this, not trying to make you feel bad. I don't think anyone thinks that you are a crappy mom, and I don;t think that anyone meant to imply that (myself included)


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby* 
Let me clarify.

She did not melt down because we were leaving. She was fine when we left. She melted down when she took another child's bike, and I asked her to get off the bike because we were leaving, and we also did not know the child who owned the bike, and we did not ask their permission first. She was fine until we were almost to the car, when she suddenly threw herself on the ground and it all started from there...delayed reaction, perhaps? :lo.


I can see you did not read my whole post. I had a special message in there for the OP-- which I think is you. I realize it's a long and emotional thread.

All that said. I really do not think punishment is ever apporpriate with littles. Ever. I do however, think we parents can loose it at times, but we need to get over our own issues and move on.

Punishment is not ever apporpriate for small children. I think it's best if parents stop trying to justify inapporpriate resposes. "But she was really, *really* horrible and I truly had no choice!" That's just not the truth, you know?

Having lost my temper with my 4, I sympathize, but I personally do not think punishment is ever ''justified' even if a tot is really 'bad.'

Sometimes I need to sit back and think "Gosh, I screwed up. What can I learn from this?"


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

That would not work for DC but I can totally understand the temptation, LAB. I think I would probably frame what you decided to do about the unpleasant playdates is say something like, "I'd like to spend next week doing things just the two of us because the playdates have been really difficult for both of us. We can try a group thing next week." And, I'd probably only do that after DC had calmed down. I also think it would have been fine for you to change your mind about the punishment.

On another note, like some other people have said, I would also be looking into why these are happening. Yes, she will outgrow them but there are most likely things you can do to help. I'd try making the playdates a little shorter or longer, changing the time of day, offering some incentive for leaving - like going to the library after the playdate rather than before (or whatever other fun thing you may do during the week).

There is this whole weird semantical thing with discipline that drives me nuts. (It's not something I've seen on this tread or in the OP but something that I do think is relevant)

It's this thing about why it's different to not go to the playdate because you think DC isn't up for it and not going to punish her for behaving badly the last time.

For me, the distinction has much less to do with how I phrase it (contrary to my advice above) than how I actually feel.

If that makes any sense&#8230;; - )


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby* 
Just wanted to respond to this. I see what you're saying, but I disagree - believe me, *I* would have loved to go too. I'm a single mom and don't get a lot of adult time, so by us not going, I'm missing out on some much needed social interaction for myself. It's not about getting back at her, it's about a desperate need and desire to not only get to the bottom of what's causing the behavior, but to teach her to more constructively communicate her feelings, rather than resorting to screaming and hitting.

She's 4. Screaming and hitting when disappointed is developmentally normal. I think your expectations are not appropriate.

-Angela


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeteaa* 
why do you think this thread would be shut down? I think the OP's situation is VERY common. If your 14 yr old was drinking at a party, would you let him/her go to another party the next night? So if somewhere between 4 and 14 its ok to use this "punishment".... I would like to know when that is.


You are not going to like my answer.

I do not think 'punishment' is ever apporpaite when kids screw up or melt down.

I will flip this and ask you how you might like to be treated if you ever 'lost it' and broke down crying? (And I am not suggesting you 'broke down' and killed someone, just that you cried uncontrollably and maybe pushed at your partner who was trying to comfort you). Are you serioulsy asking more of a 4 yr old?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby* 
Yeah. I mean, I'm used to tantrums, but she was _pissed_. She will usually scream and cry when she is upset, but she was physical, which really threw me, because I am not used to that. At one point when I was trying to get her out of the street, I was holding her, and she kicked my car hard enough that I lost my balance and almost sent the both of us tumbling into the road, but I caught myself at the last minute. Once I had her in the car, she was fighting me to try to get back out of the car, and she was flailing her arms and hit me across the face, which sent my glasses flying (luckily I caught them before they hit the ground!) Also, at some point during the struggle to get her out of the parking area and into the car, I dropped my cell phone (and did not realize it until I got home!), and had to end up getting someone to watch her after she went to sleep so that I could comb the park with a flashlight to find my cell phone. Then on the whole ride home, she told me she wanted to live with her daddy (who visits her maybe 2x a year), and I know she's 4 and does not mean it and does not understand, but that still stings a bit.

FWIW, she's doing great, and I'm glad we didn't go to the pizza party. She was pretty tired after school, and we've been having a good time vegging out and watching cartoons together today.










What you describe is not a child *choosing* to throw a fit and "be bad" It's a young child out of control because she is over tired, over stimulated and unhappy. Yeah- I really understand the frustration at the moment and the worry and the fear. But it comes down to- it's MY responsibility as mom to keep her from becoming over tired and over stimulated so that she can handle her unhappiness in an appropriate way.

-Angela


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
What I can see this punishment accomplishing:
Making her feel bad that she's a kid who sometimes loses it.
Making her feel like you don't accept that sometimes she's less than perfect.
Making her resent you because you took away the party.

What I can't see this punishment accomplishing:
Making her more able to control herself when she's too tired to do so.
Giving her greater emotional maturity than she has at this age.

How it would have gone down at our house... If the party was right after the park we would have gone home - not as a means of trying to teach a lesson but because clearly we were too tired and it just wasn't going to be a good plan for the day.

If it had been on another day, we'd have gotten out of the park the best we could. I would have acknowledged that we all have days where we make mistakes. I would resolve to next time try to avoid going to the park when we are overtired or over hungry. I would acknowledge that after the child probably feels embarrassed or sad about their behavior too. Before we go to the park next time I'd spend a bit of time planning together how we'd like that to go including talking about a peaceful exit strategy. We'd talk about "leaving on a happy note" and we'd have a plan for something desirable in the car (a snack, a music tape to listen to and we'd talk about that plan). I'd make sure we hit the park rested enough to implement the peaceful exit strategy. I'd hope that would help, but I'd know that four year olds are four they aren't forty and it may not go the way I wish. Sometimes the park will be left in tears. And, so it goes.

Very well put, as usual.





















:

-Angela


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
We also don't punish/make consequences for bed wetting, spilled milk, potty accidents etc as we see all of these things as part of being 4 and part of being human. We will help Owen fix these things and offer some guidance, but no punishing.

Brilliant.







And Owen will grow to be a sweet big boy and get it all, even though you don't punish.

I worry that so many think if you don't 'lay down the law' kids will not develop into the wonderful folks they are destined to be,

I agree it's totally different to not go to playgroup because right now playgroup is too hard. It's not about punishing. It's nobody's fault. Nobody's bad. It's just too much right now. That's *OK*.

"Babe. That playgroup is really not working for us. That day is super-long for us, and it's just too much for one little day. Let's make that a time we get ice cream ( or toffuti or whatever) and then go home, snuggle together and read." Or whatever. Watch a DVD. Whatever relaxes you all. Playgroup isn't where it's at right now. No biggie.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom* 
I am going to ignore those posters who think it's fine to punish 4 yr olds--- or who think punishments are effective for any age. (ignore)

If a child is feeling overwhelmed, then we need to realize that punishing a small child who is tired is sort if like a partner punishing you because had a long and sucky day and fell apart. To a partner you might understand that shit happens-- that he/she needs comfort. If an adult warrents and benefits from kindness, does a child warrent less? (OP, not talking to you here, you asked and I totally respect your asking).

Not in my book. A tired child needs love and compassion even * if * they freak out-- or does whatever else is deemed so horrible that a punishment must be carried over several days hence. ( If a partner would punish you over several days, how long would you stay in such a relationship?)

When an adult loses it (I am not talking murdering an ex wife and her friend while the dog barks incessantly, leaving two children without a mother) we hope that the person who loves us most takes us in his/her arms, lets us know we are not the devil incarnate, and says "Baby, I love you. You had a sucky day, sweets. Let's forget this crummy crap happend. Let's go for a massage, a glass of wine, and a nice dinner. When we get back, I'll rub your feet, run you a nice bath, and then do whatever you tell me to do".

That's what regular, non- serial killer people who are in pain need. That's what many of us wish from loves when the day totally bites ass.

Kids get squat...they get to carry their miserable days over into endless punishments. However, if an adult in a good relationship has a bad day, it's a different story, they expect some love and understanding.

If one thinks a child 4 years into the world deserves something more severe than our compassion, I dont know what to tell any of you.









: and







and









-Angela


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby* 
Thank you for recognizing that. This was not the type of a meltdown where she was crying over a box of popsicles at the grocery store. This went way beyond that to the point where she was a danger to herself and others. Just getting her strapped into the carseat (which was a necessity at that point so that she did not injure herself) took 2-3 minutes because I could not physically restrain her. It was not in any way possible for me to talk through *anything* with her at that point because she was so completely over the edge. For normal tantrums, talking through it is our normal strategy.

I'm glad you're talking about it. This right here was the natural consequence. It must have been scary for her to feel so out of control. It must have been hard to be restrained (which of course sounds as if it was perfectly necessary) This is not something that should be punished. Rather discussed, explored and used as a jumping off place for planning and problem solving.

-Angela


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeteaa* 
So how is this diferent from the OPs situation? NOW please don't be cruel, I'm trying to ask a serious GD question.

Because it was not presented ahead of time as a choice (assuming the child can think and plan ahead to make such a choice- 4yrs is on the edge of when that is possible)

It's like saying - well you should have KNOW that if you left your shoes in the living room I'd take all your shoes away- huh? It was not discussed or understood ahead of time. It was doled out as punishment after the fact.

-Angela


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
She's 4. Screaming and hitting when disappointed is developmentally normal.

It may well be. However, letting children know that screaming and hitting are not acceptable behaviours when disappointed is a valid and important lesson.

My not quite 4 year old is *not* allowed to hit me, or other people, when she is disappointed. She knows this, because I have taught her.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
It may well be. However, letting children know that screaming and hitting are not acceptable behaviours when disappointed is a valid and important lesson.

My not quite 4 year old is *not* allowed to hit me, or other people, when she is disappointed. She knows this, because I have taught her.


Oh I agree that it should be taught. No question there. BUT it should also be acknowledged as sometimes not a conscious choice. My dd KNOWS lots of things that sometimes in a moment of emotional outburst (either happy or not) she does simply because she can't control it.

My issue is with *punishing* something that was not a conscious "disobedient" choice.

-Angela


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Well, I think consequences are a good thing. The problem with no 'punishment', aka no consequences, is that what can end up happening is the parent is the only one dealing with the actual, real consequences. Our job is to shield our children, so when they freak out and run in the street, we chase them and grab them back from danger. When they colour all over the walls, we pay the damage deposit. They don't suffer the true consequences of their actions, as well they shouldn't.

But this fact has to be considered in dealing with children's behaviour, because otherwise a serious imbalance is established.

(btw, I edited my last post. could you edit to match? tx.)


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## loriforeman (Aug 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Well, I think consequences are a good thing. The problem with no 'punishment', aka no consequences, is that what can end up happening is the parent is the only one dealing with the actual, real consequences. Our job is to shield our children, so when they freak out and run in the street, we chase them and grab them back from danger. When they colour all over the walls, we pay the damage deposit. They don't suffer the true consequences of their actions, as well they shouldn't.

But this fact has to be considered in dealing with children's behaviour, because otherwise a serious imbalance is established.

(btw, I edited my last post. could you edit to match? tx.)

no punishment does NOT equate to no consequences.

punishment is often arbitrary and tossed in for any action that a child does that is not acceptable to the parent...whether the child KNEW that it wasn't allowed, or not. consequences are what happens as a direct result of the child's actions...and they generally know exactly what will take place.

natural consequences are even better...as they need no implementing.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loriforeman* 
no punishment does NOT equate to no consequences.

punishment is often arbitrary and tossed in for any action that a child does that is not acceptable to the parent...whether the child KNEW that it wasn't allowed, or not. consequences are what happens as a direct result of the child's actions...and they generally know exactly what will take place.

natural consequences are even better...as they need no implementing.


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Because it was not presented ahead of time as a choice (assuming the child can think and plan ahead to make such a choice- 4yrs is on the edge of when that is possible)

It's like saying - well you should have KNOW that if you left your shoes in the living room I'd take all your shoes away- huh? It was not discussed or understood ahead of time. It was doled out as punishment after the fact.

No, it wasn't. I told her that if she continued to hit and kick me and try to run into the street, then we would not be going to playgroup for one week. She continued, and made it out into the street again, and at that point I told her no playgroup for one week. It's not as though we got home and I said, oh by the way, because of how you acted, no playgroup. Even if she had stopped with the physical stuff and continued to scream, I would not have told her no playgroup.


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## blsilva (Jul 31, 2006)

I think that, rather than punish her, I would have tried to find out why she was having a tantrum and tried to prevent it next time. It sounds like you are doing that by deciding not to do playdates after school- it may just be too much for her. I think that this, in combination with a good conversation about other ways she can handle herself (and thoughts on how to make transitions easier on her, something that has made leaving the park a whole lot easier for us!) are steps in the right direction.

I do think that the punishment went a little far. It is basically punishing her for something she could not control in the moment. As you yourself have said, many children that age have meltdowns when leaving the park (or any fun event, for that matter), simply because they have very strong emotions about leaving, and very limited resources on which to call to control themselves. Punishing them for this seems wrong to me. You could simply consider it a great learning experience, and a chance to help her learn better tools for next time.

That said, I totally understand the impulse to *do something* in the moment. It is hard when our kids have meltdowns, especially in front of others. We often want to find a way to just make them stop. I have had to learn the hard way to step back from the situation and rethink what I really want him to learn, and how best to achieve that.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby* 
No, it wasn't. I told her that if she continued to hit and kick me and try to run into the street, then we would not be going to playgroup for one week. She continued, and made it out into the street again, and at that point I told her no playgroup for one week. It's not as though we got home and I said, oh by the way, because of how you acted, no playgroup. Even if she had stopped with the physical stuff and continued to scream, I would not have told her no playgroup.

I think that is a pretty direct consequence, er punishment.

I have seen it argued on here that the two terms are interchangeable. Personally when I think of the term 'punishment' I think of something more severe, harsh or including withdrawal of parental love or approval. This doesn't really fit for me, but whatever.

People can call this punishment or consequence, I don't think it much matters. I think there was a 4 year old child putting herself in danger and hitting her mother, in this situation. Yes, they do that. But it doesn't mean there should be no consequence to the child, only to the parent, for this type of behaviour.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby* 
No, it wasn't. I told her that if she continued to hit and kick me and try to run into the street, then we would not be going to playgroup for one week. She continued, and made it out into the street again, and at that point I told her no playgroup for one week. It's not as though we got home and I said, oh by the way, because of how you acted, no playgroup. Even if she had stopped with the physical stuff and continued to scream, I would not have told her no playgroup.

You threatened her at a time that she was clearly not in control or capable of reasonably making a decision about her actions.

Not at all the same thing as setting out a known consequence *ahead of time* which again, is not something that every 4 year old has the capability to grasp anyway.

-Angela


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blsilva* 
I do think that the punishment went a little far. *It is basically punishing her for something she could not control in the moment.*

Bolding mine. This is what it comes down to for me. And this is why it seems cruel and over the top.

-Angela


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## warriorprincess (Nov 19, 2001)

I would view not as punishment but as not wanting to put her and your in that situation ( meltdown) for a while. That's reasonable. And not cruel.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *warriorprincess* 
I would view not as punishment but as not wanting to put her and your in that situation ( meltdown) for a while. That's reasonable. And not cruel.

If that was the case then it should not have been mentioned in the heat of the moment in such a way that said "do what I want, or else ____"

-Angela


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

alegna - I get it, you don't agree. Could you maybe find another thread? It's getting old. I asked for support, and I feel like you're a bulldog who keeps grabbing on and not wanting to let go. You've yet to offer any advice, and I'm getting tired of being admonished by you. Please don't give me the line about how you're just honest and you can't help it, I'm all too familiar with it when it comes to you. I don't need my nose rubbed in it right now. I asked for advice, and if you have none to give, could you please drop it?


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## FancyD (Apr 22, 2005)

I don't think youe reaction was 'cruel', fwiw.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby* 
I would like to ask that if people want to disagree, that they could at least offer some advice, because I'm feeling a lot of criticism, but not a whole lotta help.

In this spirit, I would like to point out that we don't seem to be applying GD to the mom in this thread. One of my basic GD principles is that if I don't like what my children are doing, that I offer an acceptable alternative.

For me, I try to see these kinds of discussions as a way to help me respond differently next time, and not so much a critique of what i did that time. If I'd felt comfortable with the decisions I'd made at the time, I wouldn't be posting!

My experiences have been:
1. I try really hard not to issue threats/consequences in the heat of the moment. (I don't always succeed.) But, for reasons I don't understand, saying "If you run in the street again, we will __________" (fill in the blank with whatever consequence you want) seems to make my kids WANT to run into the street more.

If I focus more on what I want the child to do, it works better. "Stay on the sidewalk. The street is not safe. Stay here. Do you need me to help you stay here?"

2. There is nothing wrong with retracting a consequence that was too harsh or that was unjustly imposed in the heat of the moment. "I've been thinking. I was very grumpy when I told you that we wouldn't go to the park for a week. That wasn't fair. I've changed my mind, and we will go to the park again."

That models what to do when you make a mistake, and it keeps me (at least) from enforcing something I know to be stupid or an overreaction. None of us is immune to overreaction, but sticking to it just because we said so isn't modeling good relationship skills for our kids.

In your case, I think that NOT going to playgroup after school IS a reasonable _decision_, but not how you framed it for your daughter. You might re-frame it for her as "I noticed that when we go to playgroup on school days, you are very very tired and it's hard for you to control yourself. So, I've decided that it's better for us to stay home on school days. We'll still see the playgroup, but only if they're meeting on days when we're not so tired."

When I see that my kids are out of control, for whatever reason, my first assumption is that this is not a 'choice' on their part. Thus, whatever I do is to get them through the moment. When I have time, I will reflect on how we got to the point where we were out of control. Was it too much to do? Were they hungry? (Real triggers in our house!) Were they tired? Were they tired and hungry? (Don't even want to go there.) Were they overstimulated?

Then I try to figure out what I can do differently next time - bring a snack, leave earlier, decide not to go to a meeting that runs from 7-8:30 on a school night. Ds is easily overstimulated and I have to pay particular attention to his overall level of stimulation (it's cumulative in a day) and MY level of stimulation, because I too am prone to that. And when we're both overstimulated, it's a really lousy combination. So, I've discovered that leaving the radio OFF while I cook dinner has lowered both of our stress levels enormously. Bringing a snack for the kids to eat on the way home from daycare solved many a meltdown. But I had to go through the tantrum, the frustration, etc. before I could figure out those things.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

I think that this is a really hard situation. But more important is that you and your dd have a really good relationship and have talked this all out. I think that's way more important than what was said in the heat of the moment.

Listen, we're all human. I can imagine myself saying similar things in that situation. When you're being flailed against and hit, you react. This particular thing hasn't happened to me but tantrums, yes. I think when it escalates to this level, it's really on another plane entirely. You did what felt right in the moment and sometimes we just want it to stop...especially when your dc is out of control like this.

We can all say that yes, she was overstimulated and tired. It sounds like LAB knows this perfectly well. What else would one do in this situation? I think some of the responses have been a bit unrealistic. When the day goes this far south and there's this kind of aggression going on, it's perfectly natural to have a reaction to it.

Someone suggested reframing the consequence in a different way as to sound less punitive....with my ds, this would not work at all. No matter how lovingly I come across, if he doesn't get to go to the thing he wants to do he'll get very upset. I think it almost pisses him off more when I do the "I think the playgroup is too much right now. Let's..." However you say it, they don't have control over the outcome and that is what is upsetting to them. It would be to me, too.

So I don't have any pearls of wisdom to share...only to say that the outcome says it all. You two have talked it over and are in a good space now. Sometimes we just muddle through the rough times and that's all we can do.


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## mamamela (Jul 17, 2005)

I do not see the problem here. The OP had a tired and cranky kid melt down, and avoided the next time she saw that coming. That is her job as the parent- it's not a punitive- the kid is tired and can't deal with it all- she' s 4. he can't deal wit the exiting playgroup when tired- skip it a while and it will pass. Most of us have so many things to choose from for our kids- there are lots of great choices, but when we do too much, meltdowns are more frequent from both adults and kids. I think she listened to her mothering instincts and her child and knew the pizza party was not the best for them no matter what every one else did. I don't see it as some mean punishment thing. What about listening to our kids meltdowns? They are telling us they can't handle something. As parents shouldn't we pay attention to them, and not just keep putting them in that situation because other folks are and there might be a fun sounding activity involved? While a 4 year old melting down in a situation they can't deal with is normal, I think avoiding situations they can't handle, and therefore meltdowns, makes sense. Personally in our family, life runs more smoothly when avoid meltdowns rather than creating them. Good job mama for following your instincts IMHO.
,


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
In this spirit, I would like to point out that we don't seem to be applying GD to the mom in this thread. One of my basic GD principles is that if I don't like what my children are doing, that I offer an acceptable alternative.

For me, I try to see these kinds of discussions as a way to help me respond differently next time, and not so much a critique of what i did that time. If I'd felt comfortable with the decisions I'd made at the time, I wouldn't be posting!
.

All around great post, Lynn!


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
My not quite 4 year old is *not* allowed to hit me, or other people, when she is disappointed. She knows this, because I have taught her.

We all know our children and their abilities best. That said, I think this is an important point.

Honest question, when does hitting in anger become less tolerated as a developmentally appropriate "uncontrollable" impulse? Hitting at 4 seems pretty understandable....but what about 5, 6, 7, 8, 9......? This is something I've been struggling with IRL, and an honest question (not a dig at anyone's philosophy at all).


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## goodheartedmama (Feb 1, 2007)

The point of most pp's is not to criticize you, but to reinforce the fact that the punishment was too harsh, which is what the question was. I don't think anyone meant to hurt you. It seems like you're wanting someone to reassure you that you did the right thing, though.

It didn't seem to me that you were trying to avoid the situation in the future, but using it to teach her a lesson. For a 4 year old, not acknowledging the tantrum, but acknowledging her feelings would be a start. She's also old enough for you to talk to her aside from the situation about how she feels when these meltdowns occur, and brainstorm ideas for how you can both make the situation better. Punishing is never effective. It may work temporarily, but it's not going to change anything in the longterm.


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## mummy marja (Jan 19, 2005)

Have you read this great Mothering Mag article on tantrums? It was very helpful for me. Here's the link.http://www.mothering.com/articles/gr.../tantrums.html


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## Teensy (Feb 22, 2002)

If it makes you feel better, I have done basically the same thing. There was a time period when I would tell my children everytime we left a playground or pool, "Remember, if you cooperate now when it's time to leave, then I will bring you back again. If you can't cooperate when it's time to leave, then we won't be able to come again tomorrow."

Maybe it's less of an issue with one kicking and screaming child, but if you've had the experience I have of trying to leave the pool area (after giving them the five and two-minute warnings and reminding them of the popsicles waiting at home), getting the baby in the sling and ready to go, holding the hand of your three-year old non-swimmer, and then having your five year old throw off his towel and leap into the five feet deep water, well, it seemed like a pretty big safety issue to me.

Whether you call it a punishment or a consquence, it did help to improve my children's temperment when leaving such places after I had refused to take them to the pool when they asked and informing them that I could not take them because their behavior the last time we went when I told them it was time to leave was unsafe and I couldn't take them to the pool if it wasn't going to be safe for everyone.

Of course, there was absolutely no thing you could have done and asked for opinions on and gotten 100% approval.







No matter what a parent does, someone will think you should have done something different. Sigh.


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## Terrilein (Jan 9, 2007)

Sorry, I haven't read all the responses in this thread yet, but wanted to throw in my 0.02 €.
I don't think it was necessarily too harsh, but I don't think it was an appropriate punishment. Consequences need to be immediate. Not allowing her to attend a pizza party a week after the offense - even if you told her immediately - just comes to late. Your child can't connect her offensive behavior with the consequence you laid out. Most likely she had already forgotten that tantrum in the park by the time the pizza party rolled around.
But it's too late to fix that and your dd will survive. You mentioned her being too tired and maybe avoiding play dates/extended outings on school days might help. Give it a try. Otherwise you could also cut your playdates short, letting her know that you need the extra time to calm her down and get her into the car because she keeps throwing tantrums. If she can demonstrate "proper" behavior on a regular basis (allowing for the occasional tantrum that _will_ happen), then you can start extending playdates/outings. This gives your dd a little power over the outcome - if she behaves, then she can play longer.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

I also think the consequence/punishment is too abstracted from the occurrence.

It's hard to actually explain the nuances between these approaches. For me, it boils down to a feeling of whether I'm on dd's side or whether I've set myself up against her.

The punishment as you've described it feels punitive. You against her. And this coming from a parent who also thinks that it's reasonable to expect a four year old not to scream and hit when frustrated.


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## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
You threatened her at a time that she was clearly not in control or capable of reasonably making a decision about her actions.

Not at all the same thing as setting out a known consequence *ahead of time* which again, is not something that every 4 year old has the capability to grasp anyway.

-Angela

I have to agree here.

One of my friends wrote a great piece breaking down the cycle of tantrums, and she's given me permission to share it:

_There are 5 parts to every temper tantrum, they can vary in length,
intensity, and behavior, but all the components are there at some
point.
*The first is Antecedents.* This is the "trigger" that sets off
the tantrum, and also includes the early warning signs. This is a
good time for teaching...better ways to get what they want/don't
want, waiting skills, coping skills, expressing how they feel, etc.
Early warning sgns might include whining, shaking, tensing up,
increase in breathing rhythm, cheeks getting pink, etc. This is also
the time to discuss consequences of what will happen if they
continue on the path to a tantrum. Whet ever you can think of to
prevent the behavior (except giving in).
*The next stage is Escalation.*
This can be short or long. Some kids go through this so
fast you barely notice it, others take longer. This is the "winding
up" stage. This is NOT a time for teaching. This is the time to try
and redirect or distract. Remove them from the environment that is
setting them off, distract them with a different activity, anything
to divert them and prevent the tantrum fron happening, EXCEPT giving
in to what started them in the first place. If you do that, they are
more likely to get to that point quicker next time, and will be
harder to stop from getting to the next stage,
*which is CRISIS, or TANTRUM.*
This is basically a loss of control. They will not behave
rationally, or respond to reason. Once you hit this stage, and you
all know what this looks like, all you can do is wait them out.
There are things that you can do to try and shorten the duration, or
reduce the intensity, like bringing them to a quiet room or calm
down spot, reducing environmental distractions, or just holding them
on your lap. Keep talking to a minimum. This is not the time to
teach, or discuss consequences, or you will just prolong it.
*When they finally begin to calm down, this is called De-Escalation.*
Also not a time to teach or talk about consequences, or you will send
them right back to escalation and then tantrum again. Just use a
calming voice, you can talk about how mad they must have been
feeling, over all be sympathetic. Let them use this time to regain
control of themselves. This can actually be the trickiest stage,
more than the tantrum, because this is where it either starts to
end, or goes back up, depending on your response to them.
*The last stage is Post Crisis Depression.*
This is when they might come tell you they're sorry, or want
reassurance that you still love them, or they might just fall
asleep. Again, reassure them that you DO still love them,
accept their apolgies, and remain calm. After this is a
return to baseline, or normal behavior. THIS is when you teach! Talk
about what set them off, and how to do it better next time. This is
when you give them the words to explain the emotions they were
feeling. Give them better options, and let them tell you their
thoughts if they can.

This cycle is the same for EVERYONE, kids and adults, and once you
are aware of it, you will start labeling the steps in others and
yourself. Of course, MOST adults don't get all the way to full
crisis mode, but some do. (BTW, if you start telling your
significant other what stage of behavior they are in, they DON'T
appreciate it, lol. My DH knows this behavior cycle by heart too,
but doesn't like to have it pointed out to him when he's getting mad
about something.)

Hope this helps, or at least was interesting, lol.
Amnesty
_


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
. You against her. And this coming from a parent who also thinks that it's reasonable to expect a four year old not to scream and hit when frustrated.

I'm shocked, (once again in this forum,) that people think 4 year olds should be allowed to scream and hit their parents with no consequence.







:


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I'm shocked, (once again in this forum,) that people think 4 year olds should be allowed to scream and hit their parents with no consequence.







:

I don;t think that anyone has said that.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I think your punishment was harsh and extremely punitive. I don't believe the _action_ of choosing to skip a couple of playdates was unreasonable, but the presentation was completely punitive and kind of mean in my opinion.

I think you knowingly set up a situation where it was highly probable that your child would lose it (you knew she was over-tired and such) and when a meltdown happened, you punished her for her lack of self control. I gently ask... if you didn't have the self control and forethought to know that taking an overtired four year old to a park may end in a tantrum, why would you expect a four year old to have self control and decision-making skills when overtired? Something to consider.

I often feel frustrated when I see parents expecting more from their children than they expect from themselves. I believe the way you presented the punishment "go nicely or miss the party" (or some variation) shows the same behavior you are trying to eliminate your child expressing. Isn't what you did the same as an adult tantrum? She melted down because she couldn't hang on to the bike, you melted down because you couldn't get her to comply (in other words, control the actions of another person) so being in a position of control by default, weiled a punishment you knew would negatively affect her in an attempt to establish your dominance ----

In other words, I'll show you what happens when you don't allow me to control you or your behavior.

So, if the attempt is helping her to learn self-control, I would suggest mastering it first.

I feel as though you are backpeddling now and spinning the situation as:

"she gets over stimulated and becomes disrespectful of others recently so maybe skipping playgroup for a week and regrouping would help us work through it together (which would be fine imo)

When in actuality it was more: "You embarrass me when you meltdown and I get pissed that I can't control you, so when you don't adhere to my standards of behavior, you will lose things you enjoy. "

I have no doubt you love your child, that is not even in question. I am not calling you a bad mama or evil, or any of that. However, the fact is, it was a punishment. The punishment most likely didn't do a thing to "teach" your child socially appropriate ways to communicate her upsetment in public. If anything, it communicated to her that hiding your emotions in order not to receive sanctions is acceptable, and that when mama gets pissed she can turn on a dime from being my advocate to being my adversary.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby* 
alegna - I get it, you don't agree. Could you maybe find another thread? It's getting old. I asked for support, and I feel like you're a bulldog who keeps grabbing on and not wanting to let go. You've yet to offer any advice, and I'm getting tired of being admonished by you. Please don't give me the line about how you're just honest and you can't help it, I'm all too familiar with it when it comes to you. I don't need my nose rubbed in it right now. I asked for advice, and if you have none to give, could you please drop it?

You did ask whether people thought that your punishment was too harsh. You asked if it was Okay...and you asked what others would do.

Those are the questions that people seem to be answering (I am not defending alegna, referring to entire thread)


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
You did ask whether people thought that your punishment was too harsh. You asked if it was Okay...and you asked what others would do.

Those are the questions that people seem to be answering (I am not defending alegna, referring to entire thread)

Those are good points.

But just as in our parenting, we are obligated to consider whether our methods are achieving the desired goal.

In this case our goal is to help each other be more attached and capable parents.

It feels good to chastize the OP - just as on some level it felt good for her to punish her child. But it has the counter effect to what we are trying to accomplish here. Because now she's rejecting our advice and viewpoints, rather than learning from them.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
I don;t think that anyone has said that.

I absolutely think that has been said. The message is, "4 year olds scream and hit people when they are angry. That is developmentally normal. Therefore, imposing a consequence for it is inappropriate/cruel."


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

But I don;t think that anyone said that consequences for hitting and screaming would be cruel. PP's have said they don't agree with the way this was handled, and have said that they don't believe in Punishment for this...but no one has said there should be no consequence. Just that it shouldn't be punitive.

I think this is where GD starts getting really hard. There is a difference between consequences and punishments. And it can be hard to see the difference.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Blessed-ITA with what you are saying.
The OP was coming across as if she just asked for support in her post, I was pointing out that she had asked people to tell her whether they thought this was right or wrong.
I don't think that it is okay to talk down to anyone...kids or adults. It is very unproductive.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby* 
I asked for advice, and if you have none to give, could you please drop it?

My advice is that a situation like this needs compassion and parenting when it happens. It will happen. It is normal. It IS frustrating. My advice is to work on controlling your feelings in those situations (something every mom struggles with!) and not punishing for something that a young child doesn't have control over.










-Angela


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
Honest question, when does hitting in anger become less tolerated as a developmentally appropriate "uncontrollable" impulse? Hitting at 4 seems pretty understandable....but what about 5, 6, 7, 8, 9......? This is something I've been struggling with IRL, and an honest question (not a dig at anyone's philosophy at all).

Like everything- it depends on the situation and the child in question. There are no universal answers in child development.

-Angela


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I absolutely think that has been said. The message is, "4 year olds scream and hit people when they are angry. That is developmentally normal. Therefore, imposing a consequence for it is inappropriate/cruel."

I don't think that is true. I think it is developmentally appropriate sure, but I also strongly believe that the only people we can control is ourselves. If the child is wanting to scream and hit _me_, then me honoring my boundaries and not allowing them to hit and scream at me is the only "consequence" they need imo. They have seen me modeling that I will not be hit or screamed at, they have seen that screaming at me or hitting me is not something I will consent to, they see me modeling self-control and my ability to stay calm when I feel frustrated (isn't that what OP is trying to teach? self control?) while also removing myself from a situation where I am not being respected (admittedly this is easier to do in a contained place that is not a park) -- entering in arbitrary consequences doesn't do a thing to model or teach or ensure that my kid won't tantrum.....but maybe doing the above may send a message of effective and healthy conflict resolution and respectful expression of emotion.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *goodheartedmama* 
The point of most pp's is not to criticize you, but to reinforce the fact that the punishment was too harsh, which is what the question was. I don't think anyone meant to hurt you. *It seems like you're wanting someone to reassure you that you did the right thing, though*.

It didn't seem to me that you were trying to avoid the situation in the future, but using it to teach her a lesson. For a 4 year old, not acknowledging the tantrum, but acknowledging her feelings would be a start. She's also old enough for you to talk to her aside from the situation about how she feels when these meltdowns occur, and brainstorm ideas for how you can both make the situation better. *Punishing is never effective.* It may work temporarily, but it's not going to change anything in the longterm.









: Bolding mine.

-Angela


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I absolutely think that has been said. The message is, "4 year olds scream and hit people when they are angry. That is developmentally normal. Therefore, imposing a consequence for it is inappropriate/cruel."

I did say that a *punishment* was not appropriate. And I stick by that. AND I think there is a difference between a consequence and a punishment. A consequence would have been that it was time to leave at that point (in the case that that was not the plan already) A *punishment* is taking away a pizza party a week later. No correlation from a 4 year old point of view. None at all.

-Angela


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

I think your bolding is right on the mark, Angela.

But I still question how best to go about implementing a change in her perspective. Maybe frank honesty and confrontation is the way. Who knows?


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## Teensy (Feb 22, 2002)

I also am getting the idea that some of the PPs would simply accept a 4 year old tantruming (with hitting & screaming). If there is to be a consequence for tantrums when leaving the park, but not punishment, what is the consquence of the tantrum?

If a child is told (perhaps after 5 & 2 minute warnings and a reminder of the fun activity planned at home) that it is time to leave the park, and that child either runs away from mom or screams and hits mom while she attempts to carry him to the car - what is the consquence to the child? I am missing something here.

I am also







at the notion that you shouldn't take a child to the park if they are going to be tired when it is time to leave. I thought that was part of the idea?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Teensy* 
I also am getting the idea that some of the PPs would simply accept a 4 year old tantruming (with hitting & screaming). If there is to be a consequence for tantrums when leaving the park, but not punishment, what is the consquence of the tantrum?

If a child is told (perhaps after 5 & 2 minute warnings and a reminder of the fun activity planned at home) that it is time to leave the park, and that child either runs away from mom or screams and hits mom while she attempts to carry him to the car - what is the consquence to the child? I am missing something here.

I am also







at the notion that you shouldn't take a child to the park if they are going to be tired when it is time to leave. I thought that was part of the idea?

I wouldn't *accept* tantruming. The consequence is that you STILL don't get what you want (to stay). A tantrum or melt down is not a reason to punish. Not ever.

-Angela


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I don't punish tantrums either. I tell him there are better ways to express himself, I help him learn those ways, I tell him I understand he's mad but striking out at me isn't OK, I keep myself and him safe, talk about it after he's calm, and then I drop it. There's a difference between *addressing* a tantrum by teaching your child that it's not an effective way to communicate or get results and guiding them to more appropriate ways (*and* managing tantrum-provoking situations when possible), and _punishing_ them for having one. I do the former, but not the latter.

I also agree with Lynn's entire post. The not going to playdates for a while is a good idea, it's just the framing and presentation of it that wasn't ideal. Then again, I do non-ideal stuff myself, too - everyone does - that's why this board is great to bounce ideas around. Gentle with our kids, gentle with each other, gentle with ourselves. Gentle DOESN'T mean passive, or permissive. It just means not punitive or harsh. BIG difference. Setting limits and boundaries without punishing is entirely possible, and many PPs have given examples.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Teensy* 
I am also







at the notion that you shouldn't take a child to the park if they are going to be tired when it is time to leave. I thought that was part of the idea?

There's tired, and then there's overtired. Tired = expending physical energy and feeling good about it, which is what the goal of a park/playground is to me. Overtired=tantrum. At least that's how my kiddo is. So taking them when they've been too stimulated, are hungry, already tired when you go, or any other number of other triggers you know for your own kid, is a recipe for disaster.

JMHO.


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## Teensy (Feb 22, 2002)

Maybe the difference is one child versus three, but to me it seems like there should be more of a consquence for hitting mom during a tantrum (or, in my oldest's case on several occassions, running away from me at the playground/pool while I was holding the baby and younger brother too) than simple telling the kid that hitting isn't nice.

I'm not trying to change your opinion, I know that's not going to happen. I guess I want OP to know that she's not alone if she thinks an actual consquence to dangerous behavior is appropriate. Running away in a parking lot could get her DD killed. So yeah, I think something more that just a talk might be appropriate.


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## CaraboosMama (Mar 31, 2005)

I only read a few of the other responses & wanted to say that

1. I don't think it was necessarily too harsh (I don't know how it was said, whether there was a lot of yelling or you told her calmly, etc.)

2. BUT I do think sometimes consquences that are that far after the fact might not be your best bet for a 4 year old. I know what you mean about - leaving at that moment wasn't "enough" of a consequence since you were leaving anyway. It might be hard for your 4 year old to connect her tantrum behavior to the missed pizza party. It may have been "enough" just to not give in to the tantrum.

A teen can connect events several days apart in a way that a 4 year old can't.


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## Teensy (Feb 22, 2002)

I guess I also think of a tantrum as yelling and throwing oneself on the ground. That can be ignored pretty easily. Once a four year old is hitting someone or running away, it's more that just a tantrum, IMO.


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

The pizza party was not a week later. The pizza party was two days later. A day and a half, actually, since the incident happened on Wednesday night, and the party was on Friday afternoon. DD remembered the tantrum, and was able to make the connection between tantrum and pizza party.

It is over, we have discussed it, thank you. I spent last night in tears on the phone over some of the replies here. Can we please drop it? I think there have been enough replies now, and I'm just kind of over the whole "let's make littleaugustbaby feel like a shitty mother" thing. To the people who were constructive and kind, who gave me some good advice, thank you. To the rest of you...just put me on ignore please.


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## CaraboosMama (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
I don;t think that anyone has said that.


Actually, yes - several people said that her daughter could not (NOT would not) control herself. I know my 3 1/2 year old has times where she feels overwhelmed - but she know that hitting is never acceptable and that there are consequences.


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## CaraboosMama (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby* 
The pizza party was not a week later. The pizza party was two days later. A day and a half, actually, since the incident happened on Wednesday night, and the party was on Friday afternoon. DD remembered the tantrum, and was able to make the connection between tantrum and pizza party.

It is over, we have discussed it, thank you. I spent last night in tears on the phone over some of the replies here. Can we please drop it? I think there have been enough replies now, and I'm just kind of over the whole "let's make littleaugustbaby feel like a shitty mother" thing. To the people who were constructive and kind, who gave me some good advice, thank you. To the rest of you...just put me on ignore please.


I am so sorry that you feel that way
















My intention was not that you did the wrong thing AT ALL, but that maybe I would try (with my dd) a consequence that happens immediately rather than later - but my dd is also 3 1/2 and not 4.

Sometime MDC turns into a feeding frenzy instead of a place to help each other - and that sucks







: Even if I don't agree with someone, I try to give a specific suggestion instead of "No, you are wrong that's not what to do!"


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

[QUOTEThe other night at the park, 4 y.o. DD threw a really bad tantrum as we were leaving (because I would not let her ride another child's bike to our car). ][/QUOTE]

If I reading this right, the tantrum was NOT over leaving the playground, it was becaues you wouldn't let her ride ANOTHER child's bike to your car. That is completely differeint IMO, than a tantrum over not wanting to leave. In my opinion, a 4 yo is well old enough to understand that we DO NOT take other children's toys with us. Even my 2 year old can understand that "that bike is someone else's, we can't take it" and doesn't have tantrums over it.

It seems to me then, that she was acting developmentally immature (a tantrum over leaving the playground is more "normal" than a tantrum over not riding another child's bike. A 4-yo should be able to understand that we don't use/take other children's toys.

Yes, tantrums are normal for 4 yo's but you also have to look at the cause of the tantrum..what precipitated it. If it was over something that a child would "normally" be able to handle then I think it shows the child is overtired, overstimulated, low blood sugar, etc. THAT needs to be addressed, in this case a possible cause was overstimulation/overtiredness due to a day of school and then playgroup.

I would have quietly just stopped going to playgroups on school days for awhile. It does sound as though she can't handle playgroup after a full-day of school. Which is totally normal...I know when I was in the school, that I just wanted quiet time/time to myself when I got home (at least for a little bit to unwind).


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I probably would have done the same thing. Maybe not using the word "punishment". But, we would have taken a break from playgroup too.

At the age of four, they KNOW they cannot ride another child's bike to their car. "No means no" in my house. I choose my "no's" carefully, but when I say it, I mean it.

At the age of four, a meltdown over not being able to take another child's bike to the care, would also not have been acceptable.

If you tell her that "We are taking a week off of playgroup, because it seems to make you upset when we go". Then no matter what, you need to stick to it. It doesn't do any good to make a "threat" and not follow through.

It may have been harsh, and she was probably very sad. But, I would have stuck to it too.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby* 
I spent last night in tears on the phone over some of the replies here. Can we please drop it? I think there have been enough replies now, and I'm just kind of over the whole "let's make littleaugustbaby feel like a shitty mother" thing. To the people who were constructive and kind, who gave me some good advice, thank you. To the rest of you...just put me on ignore please.











But you know what LAB, you gotta take this with a grain of salt, at the same time. Lots of people adore criticizing each other's parenting over the internet. It is a bit ironic that this kind of mobbing happens so frequently in the GD forum, and that the "you're being too harsh" messages seemingly cannot be delivered without shaming, attacking, and overly harsh judgment of the mama.

It's kind of like posting in the Pets forum, though, kwim?







Drama shall abound. And unfortunately when you put "harsh" and "punishment" in a thread title here, this is a pretty predictable result, IMO regardless of the actual content of the OP.

Feel better soon! Don't take internet judgment too seriously, mama. It is easy to do, I know because I did it a few times myself in this forum, but you have to consider where you are posting and the fact that people really don't have a clue what is going on in your family, they are reacting to (in this case, some trigger) words on the net.


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## TampaMommyof2 (Aug 16, 2007)

I know you have already gotten a lot of comments on this and would like it dropped, however I just wanted to let you know that I agree with you (*littleaugustbaby*) and think that if you do not "put your foot down" on some issue's like the screaming and hitting, then your letting your child walk all over you. Sometimes you have to remind them who is the child and who is the parent. You HAVE to teach your child what is right and what is wrong...and the way she was acting was wrong. I usually give warnings to my children. I remind them (when they are starting to throw a tantrum in the public eye) about a "special event" that might be coming up and ask them if they still would like to go. When they respond "YES" then I remind them that the way they are acting is not nice/wrong and if they continue then they will not be able to attend that "special event". That seems to work with both of my children. If they continue to throw the tantrums then I would have stuck to my punishment too...not going to that "special event"!!!

~I watch my mother let my brother throw those type of tantrums. She would say "after-wards" that the way he acted was not nice, however she would never punch him. Now he has no respect for her. He is now in his teens and he still yells at her and acts like she is a '"nobody"!


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## loriforeman (Aug 18, 2007)

for the record, i don't just stand there and let my four-year-old beat on me, either...but i DO recognize that she can't control herself.

i'll restrain her arms, or leave the room if she's trying to hit me...and let her know that hitting is NEVER acceptable. she can beat her bed or the ground all day long.

knowing that something is natural and gonna happen...and riding through it...is not the same thing as just "accepting" being hit.

everything's a learning experience.


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## kkeris (Oct 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TampaMommyof2* 
I know you have already gotten a lot of comments on this and would like it dropped, however I just wanted to let you know that I agree with you (*littleaugustbaby*) and think that if you do not "put your foot down" on some issue's like the screaming and hitting, then your letting your child walk all over you.
Sometimes you have to remind them who is the child and who is the parent.

~I watch my mother let my brother throw those type of tantrums. She would say "after-wards" that the way he acted was not nice, however she would never punch him. Now he has no respect for her. He is now in his teens and he still yells at her and acts like she is a '"nobody"!





Just wondering, do you feel or believe a child _wants_ to do the right things naturally? Or do you feel that a child will try as hard as they can to do all the stuff they shouldnt, and that without punishments to prevent this, they will "walk all over you"?

Also, care to elaborate more on how punishing a child gains you respect? Or do you mean fear? How does one gain another's respect in your opinion?


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Nevermind, I misread the post before me.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kkeris* 
Just wondering, do you feel or believe a child _wants_ to do the right things naturally? Or do you feel that a child will try as hard as they can to do all the stuff they shouldnt, and that without punishments to prevent this, they will "walk all over you"?

Also, care to elaborate more on how punishing a child gains you respect? Or do you mean fear? How does one gain another's respect in your opinion?

I know you did not ask me, but I think two things. Yes children want to do right things naturally. Children also test limits, test to see what mama does in extreme situations, whether mama still loves them, and what mama will *do* to restore balance. All human relationships contain elements of power, and our relationships with our children are no different.

I know too many overly "GD'ed" kids whose behaviour is deplorable, intentionally. I do not believe these are bad children, I believe they are looking for the edge, and because the parents believe they should not impose limits in the name of saving the child's precious eggshell psyche, they never find that edge.

They are not fun children to be around.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kkeris* 
Just wondering, do you feel or believe a child _wants_ to do the right things naturally? Or do you feel that a child will try as hard as they can to do all the stuff they shouldnt, and that without punishments to prevent this, they will "walk all over you"?

Also, care to elaborate more on how punishing a child gains you respect? Or do you mean fear? How does one gain another's respect in your opinion?

This question wasn't for me.

But, some kids do want to do the right things naturally. Some kids want to do the opposite of what they are supposed to do.

I have one daycare girl that will choose the Opposite of what we are doing. She would argue with ANYBODY, even if she knows she is wrong. She will risk her very life to "Do it", because "it" popped into her head, and now she is determined to accomplish whatever feat she has set out to do.

If we say "walk" she runs. If I say "Please close the door" she opens it farther.

She is NOT misunderstanding me. She loves to choose the wrong thing. She enjoys the reactions.

She is of course extremely bright, and has a personality to go with her stubborness, the kids adore her, she is cute and fun, and drives me batty all at the same time.

So, my answer is "It depends on the kid"


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kkeris* 
Just wondering, do you feel or believe a child _wants_ to do the right things naturally? Or do you feel that a child will try as hard as they can to do all the stuff they shouldnt, and that without punishments to prevent this, they will "walk all over you"?


I know this wasn't directed at me but I just wanted to say that I believe children want to do the right things naturally.

I think that a lot of people feel like kids will try to "Walk all over you" and it really shows in the way that they parent. I used to think that way, and boy did things improve around here once I got rid of that Me vs Child attitude of parenting.

FWIW my son is a really nice kid, and gets along great with other people. We do GD and CL and it really works for us. He doesn't need punishments in order to learn things. I think that lots of people think that kids can't learn unless they are punished or made to suffer. You can't let them "Get away with" doing anything that you (general you) don't deem appropriate etc...

Power struggle parenting doesn't seem to do anything except create more power struggles.


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## loriforeman (Aug 18, 2007)

i don't necessarily think that a child "wants" to do the right thing...not at first.

a child craves approval and attention. if they aren't getting positive attention and approval...they'll learn to go after negative attention.

that's when you have a problem...


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loriforeman* 
i don't necessarily think that a child "wants" to do the right thing...not at first.

a child craves approval and attention. if they aren't getting positive attention and approval...they'll learn to go after negative attention.

that's when you have a problem...

I disagree. The children I know get *tons* of positive attention and approval. And still behave horribly. The parents are pushovers and ineffective.

When I watch these same children, they are better, although still fairly unpleasant. I take less crap.


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## TampaMommyof2 (Aug 16, 2007)

Originally Posted by *kkeris* http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?p=9247754#post9247754http://www.mothering.com/discussions...s/viewpost.gif
_Just wondering, do you feel or believe a child wants to do the right things naturally? Or do you feel that a child will try as hard as they can to do all the stuff they shouldnt, and that without punishments to prevent this, they will "walk all over you"?

Also, care to elaborate more on how punishing a child gains you respect? Or do you mean fear? How does one gain another's respect in your opinion?_
_************************************************** ********_
_*Yes I believe children want to do the right things and want to make their parents happy, however they also are in the process of "finding themselves" and do want to test their limits. Not because they WANT to be bad, but just because everything is new and they want to see how much they can do. If you do not set some type of limits then they think that what they are doing is ok and will continue to act that way.*_

_*As far as my mother....my point was that she never set limits or made my little brother understand that she would not let him act that way and now that he is a teenager she is trying to set limits and he is outraged and thinks that she has no say...why? because he never had limits when he was younger.*_

_*You can gain respect from your children without fear (please don't try to put words in my mouth that I never said). Both my children respect me and understand that when I say "no" or "don't do that" that I don't like what they are doing. They understand that they will not be rewarded for doing something that I do not like. And children love rewards!!!*_


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## loriforeman (Aug 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I disagree. The children I know get *tons* of positive attention and approval. And still behave horribly. The parents are pushovers and ineffective.

When I watch these same children, they are better, although still fairly unpleasant. I take less crap.

then i would think that their parents, maybe unintentionally...are reinforcing their bad behavior.

if a child throws a fit, and mama gives them what they wants to shut them up...they've just reinforced the fit. that is, of course, a cut and dry example...many others are not so easy to see.

positive attention has to be met with discipline (please don't read punishment, i'm more for behavioral methods).


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

OP, I think you did fine.
I probl. would've talked to her about it once at home and explained WHY it's not acceptable. Asked her how you can help her, etc. Then, said you'd give her a chance at the next playdate to show you're a team, etc. If she blew it at that one, I'd have skipped the next one regardless of the content.

Each of my kids has gone through a phase of being inappropriate at playdates. I left the sibling and left IMMEDIATELY w/the tantrum-ing child. Seriously, it took once w/one child and 2 times w/the other child. After that event, I just had to ask them to stop and think about what they were doing and what the consequences would be.

Good luck!


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loriforeman* 
then i would think that their parents, maybe unintentionally...are reinforcing their bad behavior.

if a child throws a fit, and mama gives them what they wants to shut them up...they've just reinforced the fit. that is, of course, a cut and dry example...many others are not so easy to see.

positive attention has to be met with discipline (please don't read punishment, i'm more for behavioral methods).

Yes, sometimes they are actively rewarded. But more often they are just not prevented from doing things that wreak havoc. Or, mama absorbes the negative consequences of the child's behaviour to protect the child.

Examples from my real life:

- Child has a string of bad behaviour with a group of friends and mamas, including running too close to the road, swinging off a freezer door potentially breaking it or pulling the fridge down on himself, hitting other children, culminating in pumping a large jar of expensive soap down a drain in another mama's home.

Child's mother responds to each incident with ineffective sing-songy 'reminders' about why xyz is not good to do, information the child already has, entirely missing the point that the behaviour is done with intention, not because he doesn't know any better. No consequences at all. Finally I left, as I was going to murder him, behaviour was still ongoing.

- Child deliberately pours small craft supplies and toys all over the floor, creating a horrible giant mess. Intentionally. Mama cleans mess with minimal 'help' from the child, as of course it is too big of a job for him to do entirely or mostly on his own!

- Child runs under a fence and over rocks too close to a river, ignoring father's pleas to return because it is dangerous. When he finally gets the child back, he holds his hand and the child yells that he is hurting him (not true). Father throws his hands into the air, saying alarmedly, "Oh! I'm so sorry! I didn't mean to hurt you!" Child runs off to create more drama.

Those kinds of things. There is a pattern created where the child is almost constantly looking for ways to behave negatively. I am noticing it prominently with one of my daughter's good friends right now, but it is a wider theme among a few GD'ed children I know.

The commonality for me is that the parents have taken GD to mean a prohibition on consequences, being assertive, or enforcing limits with the children. There is a terrible imbalance currently among a segment of my particular IRL social circle, and the children are horrid to be around. They are not bad children, of course. But their behaviour is currently just awful. It makes things unpleasant for the parents and greatly limits what the parents can do with their children, or how enjoyable a time they can have.

I personally am not willing to be limited in such a way by my child's behaviour. More assertive parenting, with love AND limits, is working very, very well for us, and I am glad of it.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Hey, LAB

You don't have to answer this but I wonder if part of what's going on with you is that you found a solution which, on the surface, some of your IRL friends and some of you on-line friends feel is not developmentally appropriate and something that, perhaps, even you don't agree with on a philosophical level that turns out to work well for you and your child.

I've been there and it's a different way to look at parenting and discipline. It takes a special kind of confidence and it takes knowing your child (and yourself) like only you can. I think that this is a learning experience that many, if not most, of us have to go through at some point.

What helps me is to acknowledge that this discrepancy is there. And maybe it isn't there for you but I do think it's an important thing to know how to do as a parent. Not every choice we make is going to fit neatly into our idea of how we think things should be and that's OK.

The best advice I ever got from a mama was when I asked her if she thought her choice was the "right" thing to do and she answered, "I don't think it was the right thing to do but I think it was and OK thing to do."

Hugs to you!!!


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TampaMommyof2* 
Originally Posted by *kkeris* http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?p=9247754#post9247754http://www.mothering.com/discussions...s/viewpost.gif
_Just wondering, do you feel or believe a child wants to do the right things naturally? Or do you feel that a child will try as hard as they can to do all the stuff they shouldnt, and that without punishments to prevent this, they will "walk all over you"?

Also, care to elaborate more on how punishing a child gains you respect? Or do you mean fear? How does one gain another's respect in your opinion?_
_************************************************** ********_
_*Yes I believe children want to do the right things and want to make their parents happy, however they also are in the process of "finding themselves" and do want to test their limits. Not because they WANT to be bad, but just because everything is new and they want to see how much they can do. If you do not set some type of limits then they think that what they are doing is ok and will continue to act that way.*_

_*As far as my mother....my point was that she never set limits or made my little brother understand that she would not let him act that way and now that he is a teenager she is trying to set limits and he is outraged and thinks that she has no say...why? because he never had limits when he was younger.*_

_*You can gain respect from your children without fear (please don't try to put words in my mouth that I never said). Both my children respect me and understand that when I say "no" or "don't do that" that I don't like what they are doing. They understand that they will not be rewarded for doing something that I do not like. And children love rewards!!!*_

I also think kids need, and want limits. My daughter has NEVER been punished. But, she has had lots of limits, and has had lots of consequenses. There have been a couple of times where she couldn't go somewhere because of her past behavior. There were times, when she made a scene in a store, and we went home. Where I left her with Daddy, and went back to the store without her. She WANTED to be with me. So, she only made a scene once or twice, then she learned that it was more fun to enjoy the trip. She always got something at the store. Usually a cookie, or a new pacifier, or a box of Dixie cups (weird Dixie cup obsession for a while)

My child is 15 now. She works hard in school, she is sloppy at home, but overall, she is well rounded, and a really good and happy kid. She has friends who's parents let them "run the household" who are now getting into a lot of trouble, because the world has rules, and the kids don't like them.

One of our friend's son is in prison for 13 years because he didn't like the world's rules, and he killed two kids last year. He didn't MEAN to kill them, but he didn't think he should have "rules" imposed on him, and he made a choice that caused the death of two other teens.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I personally am not willing to be limited in such a way by my child's behaviour. More assertive parenting, with love AND limits, is working very, very well for us, and I am glad of it.

The sad part is, these are the kids who other families wont invite over, they will turn down invitations to their homes or parties.

It's the kids who suffer, because nobody likes them. It isn't the children's fault. But, they are the ones that other kids and parents whisper about. Nobody says "The parents did XYZ" they say "Did you see how those kids behaved? That is the last time I have those kids over here".


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

ITA with Thismama that lots of parents who GD think that means let your kids do whatever they want and just follow behind them picking up the pieces.

Kids don't learn anything that way.

I have a friend IRL whose child just gets worse with each passing day. I don't like Owen to play with this kid anymore because he picks up so many TERRIBLE things from this kid. This kid will see a cat and all he wants to do is kick and chase it. He sees a butterfly and he wants to crush i. He tells my son to hit me with things, and he can get really violent.

His parents are just way to Wishy Washy about all of it, and this kid cannot figure out where his boundaries are. So he is constantly testing.

We are basically at a point where the friendship is unravelling because I cannot stand to be around this child. And how do you tell someone that?

thismama is pointing out a truth in GD that I am sure we have all seen at one time or another. I think of it as passive/permissive parenting (something I read here long ago...) and it turns perfectly good kids into people that I don't want to be around.

thismama I am sorry that you are dealing with this from so many different friends right now. It can really end up being a deal breaker.


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## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
The commonality for me is that the parents have taken GD to mean a prohibition on consequences, being assertive, or enforcing limits with the children. There is a terrible imbalance currently among a segment of my particular IRL social circle, and the children are horrid to be around. They are not bad children, of course. But their behaviour is currently just awful. It makes things unpleasant for the parents and greatly limits what the parents can do with their children, or how enjoyable a time they can have.

I personally am not willing to be limited in such a way by my child's behaviour. More assertive parenting, with love AND limits, is working very, very well for us, and I am glad of it.


I agree with you. I am very assertive when it comes to boundaries and respect. I refuse to be walked over by anyone- including my kids.

That said, I still feel....off about the way this was handled. I need to know that _at that moment_, we are doing everything possible to make it right again - the responsibility on me to teach and reinforce proper behaviour through whatever means necessary, from "You may NOT hit me!" and stepping away from the child after buckling her for a breather, to low talking, empathising with the child, focusing on other activities. And understanding that yes, this is a phase, and we will get through it. It is neither socially acceptable nor personally acceptable behaviour, but it is a learning process and using that information to control my patience.
Imposing a consequence a week later sounds just as ineffective as the singsongy no-no's. A 4yo still needs the immediate consequence and the parents can focus on the long term preventive measures like - putting a goodbye plan into place, taking a short rest period between school and the playdate, role playing..or even rethinking certain activities and making a lifestyle change.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
ITA with Thismama that lots of parents who GD think that means let your kids do whatever they want and just follow behind them picking up the pieces.

Kids don't learn anything that way.

I have a friend IRL whose child just gets worse with each passing day. I don't like Owen to play with this kid anymore because he picks up so many TERRIBLE things from this kid. This kid will see a cat and all he wants to do is kick and chase it. He sees a butterfly and he wants to crush i. He tells my son to hit me with things, and he can get really violent.

His parents are just way to Wishy Washy about all of it, and this kid cannot figure out where his boundaries are. So he is constantly testing.

We are basically at a point where the friendship is unravelling because I cannot stand to be around this child. And how do you tell someone that?

thismama is pointing out a truth in GD that I am sure we have all seen at one time or another. I think of it as passive/permissive parenting (something I read here long ago...) and it turns perfectly good kids into people that I don't want to be around.

thismama I am sorry that you are dealing with this from so many different friends right now. It can really end up being a deal breaker.

Yeah, it's really hard, isn't it? I really relate to that. I mean, I love my friends. The one with the child whose behaviour is really out of control right now, she is a good friend of mine. And yeah, how do you tell that to somebody, that you are not enjoying their child right now? And I mean, I'm not. I like *him* underneath it all, but being around him is so unpleasant right now! And to a lesser extent several of the children in a group of GD/AP mamas I hang with.

I am also finding it hard on my child. Because as these other children run through gardens and trample plants while their parents feebly call to them from the edges, my child is at the edge of the garden because I have told her no. Or while they run screaming disturbing a rally, mine is the silent one by my side.

It's not fair.

Right now I'm hanging with my mama friends on their own, minimizing the time with their children, and avoiding situations where I am responsible or partially responsible for caring for the children. Which sucks, it means I am somewhat ostracized from what should be my social group of AP mama friends.

This happened before with another mama friend. I really love her too, but out of control child and totally ineffective parenting response. I can't deal with it, man.


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## TampaMommyof2 (Aug 16, 2007)

{Quote by: nextcommercial: She always got something at the store. Usually a cookie, or a new pacifier, or a box of Dixie cups (weird Dixie cup obsession for a while) }

Hey that's funny....my daughter has that same obsession!!! I give rewards for good behavior at the store/shopping and my daughter would rather have a box of Dixie Cup's than a Cookie. She loves to walk around the house with the cups full of little toys...beaded necklaces, little rubber animals..etc. Some times I'll be looking for one of my hair scrunchies ( she likes to wear them on her wrest like bracelets) and will find them hiding inside the cups (along with some of her brothers hot wheel cars)!! LOL....sometimes it doesn't take much to make them happy!


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby* 
The pizza party was not a week later. The pizza party was two days later. A day and a half, actually, since the incident happened on Wednesday night, and the party was on Friday afternoon. DD remembered the tantrum, and was able to make the connection between tantrum and pizza party.

It is over, we have discussed it, thank you. I spent last night in tears on the phone over some of the replies here. Can we please drop it? I think there have been enough replies now, and I'm just kind of over the whole "let's make littleaugustbaby feel like a shitty mother" thing. To the people who were constructive and kind, who gave me some good advice, thank you. To the rest of you...just put me on ignore please.









lab, I just wanted to say that I think your post (although you endured some mighty blows and I'm so sorry you've been upset by it...I would have been, too) really illustrates how resilient and forgiving and human we all are. You know, this parenting stuff is not a science. There are no hard and fast rules. You do things that feel like the right thing in the moment and reflect later. I'm sorry you feel you didn't get much support here. I just wanted to say that I think you handled it very well based on how things have turned out and that's what really matters. We all do things we're not sure about in parenting and we all make mistakes. Our kids don't need us to be perfect. They need to see that we are human.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 









But you know what LAB, you gotta take this with a grain of salt, at the same time. Lots of people adore criticizing each other's parenting over the internet. It is a bit ironic that this kind of mobbing happens so frequently in the GD forum, and that the "you're being too harsh" messages seemingly cannot be delivered without shaming, attacking, and overly harsh judgment of the mama.

It's kind of like posting in the Pets forum, though, kwim?







Drama shall abound. And unfortunately when you put "harsh" and "punishment" in a thread title here, this is a pretty predictable result, IMO regardless of the actual content of the OP.

Feel better soon! Don't take internet judgment too seriously, mama. It is easy to do, I know because I did it a few times myself in this forum, but you have to consider where you are posting and the fact that people really don't have a clue what is going on in your family, they are reacting to (in this case, some trigger) words on the net.

You always say what I mean to say! I agree that it's so odd that on a GD forum some feel it's fine to be very harsh with one another. It might be good to remember that modeling is much more powerful to our children than most other forms of discipline/guidance. Yes, they can't read what we're writing, but I'm sure it comes across in other ways if this kind of judgment and lack of compassion screams across this forum so often. Modeling a gentle and compassionate way of being in the world is what I strive for...parenting can often make you strive to be a better person.

Another really puzzling thing to me as that on mainstream boards the women seem so much kinder to one another...but of course their parenting practices aren't always in line with mine. Here, I find it surprising when there is a pleasant dialogue going on...unless there is a topic of bashing someone else. It's a trip.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I don't agree with punishments of any kind, but I don't agree with "permissive" parenting either as it relates to how many people perceive it.

I think there is a huge distinction between *deliberate* parenting and permissive, 'I don't care what you do just please dear God let me never, ever have to get into any kind of confrontation or see anything less on your face than a wide grin.' Furthermore, there is a huge difference between setting the intention to parent consensually and sort of the "I really don't care what you do as long as you don't get killed" parenting I see sometimes. Unfortunately, many times the two get muddled and lumped together and it does sort of irk me and I sometimes feel a bit defensive. I work my @ss off parenting my daughter, it is fun *work* mostly, but it is deliberate, intentional work with research, instinct, respect, and "results" to support it (results meaning, our family runs very well, we are all happy, and my daughter is almost always the "best behaved" for lack of a better term, kid in the room).

...and yet, she has never and will never be punished.... so I don't get how that could be? Please don't say, oh you were just lucky. My daughter isn't the highest of *high needs* but she wasn't just a buddha baby who was zen from birth either....

Just my $.02


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby* 
The pizza party was not a week later. The pizza party was two days later. A day and a half, actually, since the incident happened on Wednesday night, and the party was on Friday afternoon. DD remembered the tantrum, and was able to make the connection between tantrum and pizza party.

It is over, we have discussed it, thank you. I spent last night in tears on the phone over some of the replies here. Can we please drop it? I think there have been enough replies now, and I'm just kind of over the whole "let's make littleaugustbaby feel like a shitty mother" thing. To the people who were constructive and kind, who gave me some good advice, thank you. To the rest of you...just put me on ignore please.


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## NaomiMcC (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby* 
....Fast forward to this afternoon. Someone in playgroup is hosting a pizza party. We canceled our RSVP because I told DD no playgroup for a week, and I feel like I have to follow through.

...The teacher commented that it seemed kind of harsh, and I was like, well, I set out the rules for her, and she broke them, and I have to be consistent and stick to the punishment.

I really don't think that making her stay home from a playgroup event after tantrums at two other playgroup events is really all that harsh. It seems as close to natural consequences as I could get -- if you can't behave at playgroup, then you can't go to playgroup..


I haven't read through the entire thread but I'm gonna guess I'm going against some of the grain when I say: I think it's fine.

Rules were broken and consequences followed. That's how kids learn. And you're right: if you can't behave at playgroup, you don't go. Simple as that.


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## blsilva (Jul 31, 2006)

For us, discipline is not so much about consequences or punishments as it is about teaching, mostly through communication. We are not permissive, and do not allow our kids to just do whatever they want, but we do see things a little differently.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama* 
Hey, LAB

You don't have to answer this but I wonder if part of what's going on with you is that you found a solution which, on the surface, some of your IRL friends and some of you on-line friends feel is not developmentally appropriate and something that, perhaps, even you don't agree with on a philosophical level that turns out to work well for you and your child.

I've been there and it's a different way to look at parenting and discipline. It takes a special kind of confidence and it takes knowing your child (and yourself) like only you can. I think that this is a learning experience that many, if not most, of us have to go through at some point.

What helps me is to acknowledge that this discrepancy is there. And maybe it isn't there for you but I do think it's an important thing to know how to do as a parent. Not every choice we make is going to fit neatly into our idea of how we think things should be and that's OK.

The best advice I ever got from a mama was when I asked her if she thought her choice was the "right" thing to do and she answered, "I don't think it was the right thing to do but I think it was and OK thing to do."

Hugs to you!!!

I needed to read this right about now. Gosh, I love your posts ICM!

LAB, I am sorry this thread went down the tubes for you. Does it make you feel any better to know that it is helping me sort out some of my parenting philosophies at the moment?









And you sound like a fantastic mama. Don't let a GD thread get you down. We all do the best we can. We all aspire to do better. You are doing a great job







:


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

I'm not going to touch on *anything* in this thread except for one thing I haven't seen anyone talk about. You don't need to get anything drilled into your head by me.








Anyway, the one thing that stuck out to me was you explaining to the teacher she was being punished. IMO, that's humiliating for children, especially if you explain in front of them. I think maybe you should just say she can't make the party.


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## yarngoddess (Dec 27, 2006)

I agree with your punishment of DC. Throwing a kicking, hitting, screaming, try to run away at the park kind of fit isn't safe for the child. I would, however, have reminded my DC before school that there would be no Pizza party today, because of the fit that was thrown at the park. I don't want other people to be the first to tell my dc something important. I think that a 4 year old can comprehend that 'Because I did this... Then THIS will happen. I don't think that a whole 7 days of no play group is appropriate though. I personally would have said no party because this isn't safe.

I think that you need to talk to DC calmly away from the moment of the temper tantrum, and get DC to express her feelings about the whole situation. Learn the triggers of your DC, what makes her get to that point. Did you do more in that day than you normally do. Try to stop before she reaches her breaking point and tell her that you are leaving now, because "We don't want you to get upset and out of controll like last time. Remember how that made you feel, I don't want you to feel like that again." or something like that.


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## yarngoddess (Dec 27, 2006)

I also wanted to say that telling the teacher what was happening was, IMO out of line. I would thank the teacher for her concern, and reassure her that you will handle the situation and leave. I think that this is between you and the DC. Like I said, you need (sorry not being bossy) to explain to DC, not to the teacher, friend, friend's mom, or playgroup. I also think that if you say "No play group for a week" then you have to mean NO playgroup for a week. Pick your battles and win them, regardless of what others think.


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

I've only read the OP but as someone with an elementary degree and who works in early intervention, I feel that a week was not appropriate at all. At that age, connecting her behavior from a week ago to a consequence today is not a skill she will have that will help her to behave better at the next playgroup.


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## maryjane (Jul 13, 2004)

(((hugs))) to the OP. I am sorry you are feeling that you're been "ganged up on".

I wanted to add a few words on the type of tantrum you experienced. My DS is also 4 (4 and 3 months) and we are all too familiar with them.

Quote:

Thank you for recognizing that. This was not the type of a meltdown where she was crying over a box of popsicles at the grocery store. This went way beyond that to the point where she was a danger to herself and others. Just getting her strapped into the carseat (which was a necessity at that point so that she did not injure herself) took 2-3 minutes because I could not physically restrain her. It was not in any way possible for me to talk through *anything* with her at that point because she was so completely over the edge. For normal tantrums, talking through it is our normal strategy.
I don't even consider the crying jags a "tantrum". For those, I usually say (sometimes more patiently than others), "A, I can't help you when I can't understand what you're saying. When you've calmed down, I will be happy to help you come up with a solution." Or something like that. I never thought I would ignore a tantrum, but after I repeat that mantra to him, I usually ignore his crying as much as possible. IME, he just has to let it out and then he is ready to get back to business.

OTOH, when A has one of those massive melt-downs and is completely out of control, I know that he has lost the ability to hear me, let alone listen to me. I wish he didn't experience that -- it's not good for him, and I know it's not good for me either (I imagine my BP shoots through the roof!). BUT, he does, and when it happens, the *last* thing I want to do is punish or threaten to punish, as that just "seals the deal" so to speak. If he wasn't already over-the-edge, then my threatening to/or actually punishing is the last straw for him. When we are in the peak of one of those total meltdowns, I just do what I have to do to get us through it safely. When it's LONG over, then we can talk about what happened and process it. But while it's going on? Just ride the storm, and take cover for everyone involved.

I'm far from a super GDer and I lose my patience waaaay more than I'd ever admit here, BUT my approach to temper tantrums is something I've had a lot of time/opportunities to reflect upon. I know your daughter isn't my son, but I hope my experience might be a bit helpful as you continue to reflect on things.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

Pick your battles and win them, regardless of what others think.
Wowzers. This is not how some parents on this forum (myself included) approach things AT ALL with their children. It sets up an extremely adversarial relationship imo.


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## blsilva (Jul 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
Wowzers. This is not how some parents on this forum (myself included) approach things AT ALL with their children. It sets up an extremely adversarial relationship imo.

ITA. I use to think this way, and it set us up for a lot of power struggles and serious connection problems. And it did not improve behavior.

OP, if you want to check into a different aproach, you might find the book _Easy to love, Difficult to Discipline_ by Beckyt Bailey useful.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

OP, I probably would have stopped going to playgroups for a while too, because I would know that *I* couldn't handle ds's actions. I would have *tried* to have done it in a "It's too stressful for me to go right now" type of way.
But it's definitely possible that something like "If you don't stop that right now, you're never going to another playgroup ever" would come out of my mouth. Imo, it's not going to make or break your whole relationship, kwim?

I have found that the best thing for ME to do to "improve ds's behavior", is to focus on connection. The more I do that, the better I react, and that has a positive effect on ds.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I am also finding it hard on my child. Because as these other children run through gardens and trample plants while their parents feebly call to them from the edges, my child is at the edge of the garden because I have told her no. Or while they run screaming disturbing a rally, mine is the silent one by my side.

That's my ds too (the one standing by, not damaging things). We don't punish, but I am quite clear about what is ok and what isn't, and how ds's actions affect others.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
I needed to read this right about now.









:


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

We just had a very similar situation happen today...we were at a fair in a park with a lot of friends in the community...it was late, the baby was past his naptime and we were all ready for lunch. Bad setup already! We knew leaving would be hard because lately transitions have been quite difficult for my 4 1/2 yo ds.

Anyway, long story short it was ugly. We gave the two minute warning and when it was time to leave there was screaming and running and yelling and the works. He didn't hit either one of us but he had a very big meltdown. It didn't rile either me or dh which was good...we were prepared. I think this helps a lot.

When we got to the car, it was a struggle getting in but we just decided to give him the time he needed while we worked on staying calm. After saying that I was the "most terrible person on earth" (I really felt for him at this point because he was so angry and trying to really lay it on) he climbed into the front seat and cuddled and cried in my lap.

Afteward, he was fine...he talked about how he wanted to stay longer and asked why we had to leave. We talked about it and the fact that there will always be the time when we have to leave and it's so hard. I said to him that this is something we'll need to work on together but I really understand how hard it is.

But, what I realized is that this is one of those situations where he's really uncomfortable and it's my job to help him do these transitions more easily. At one point he said "how can I change your mind the next time so that we don't have to go?". It's clear that he has had some mixed messages from us about transitions because they have been difficult and we haven't always known how to handle it...sometimes we stay a bit longer and sometimes we can't. This has been really confusing to someone who is having trouble with this. SO, we decided that we need to help him accept that when we give him the 2 minute warning that's his time to prepare to leave. It might involve some of this for a few times but this is one of those things where the adults need to make the decision.

So, to the OP I think you did just fine. I agree with Deva that probably owning the reason for not going to the playgroup might have fit better with what was going on for you. I would have made the same decision. Sometimes we have to bow out of stuff because it's just too much.

Anyway, you're not alone in this! Some kids don't do this and some of the posters here haven't reached this stage with their kids. I had a very easy time of it when my ds was 2 and 3...it was 3 1/2 on that became a bit more challenging!


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
Wowzers. This is not how some parents on this forum (myself included) approach things AT ALL with their children. It sets up an extremely adversarial relationship imo.

Again, it probably depends on the child. This wouldn't work with my kids but some kids might really need to know that when mom says xyz that's what it means.

A lot of what it comes down to, IMO, is how the child is experiencing the situation. For some kids, not to have a clear message and someone in charge is a very scary, out of control kind of feeling. If your kid isn't like this, great. But let's not make blanket statements about how things work for all human beings.


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swampangel* 
Again, it probably depends on the child. This wouldn't work with my kids but some kids might really need to know that when mom says xyz that's what it means.

A lot of what it comes down to, IMO, is how the child is experiencing the situation. For some kids, not to have a clear message and someone in charge is a very scary, out of control kind of feeling. If your kid isn't like this, great. But let's not make blanket statements about how things work for all human beings.









:

Great point. Thanks for making it.

Also, I have three kids spaced three years apart. No way could I have gone through the fabulous 4's without 'punishment/consequence'.

Four is a much tougher age than 2. 2 was a great age for all three of my kids.








to you littleaugust baby - you are doing a SUPER job with your daughter.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
If the child is wanting to scream and hit _me_, then me honoring my boundaries and not allowing them to hit and scream at me is the only "consequence" they need imo. They have seen me modeling that I will not be hit or screamed at, they have seen that screaming at me or hitting me is not something I will consent to, they see me modeling self-control and my ability to stay calm when I feel frustrated (isn't that what OP is trying to teach? self control?) while also removing myself from a situation where I am not being respected (admittedly this is easier to do in a contained place that is not a park) -- entering in arbitrary consequences doesn't do a thing to model or teach or ensure that my kid won't tantrum.....but maybe doing the above may send a message of effective and healthy conflict resolution and respectful expression of emotion.

Can I ask (not snarkily at all) for examples, here?

How do you model that you will not be hit or screamed at? How, physically, in a public park where you cannot walk away safely, can you represent that to a screaming, flailing, tantrumming, lashing-out two or three or four year old?

Because a child in that out-of-control mode is not really in a place to hear you calmly say "This is my body and its not okay to hit." And you can't leave the situation, especially if you're there alone with the child and/or have more than one child with you.

Further, how do you remove yourself from the situation, even at home, without that timeout=abandonment thing going on?

These are all questions I struggled with greatly when my DS was the OPs age. After a very calm, nearly tantrum-free baby and toddlerhood, he started pitching megafits at age 3 and they continued for over a year. Nothing we tried would prevent them in certain circumstances, and he did *not* seem to learn from discussions afterwards... "in the moment" discussions were like ashes in the wind because he was not far beyond logic during them.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

I am not reading the pages of replies, but I think it is OK. However, I would tell her, "I should have not said it was a punishment. I think that there has been too much going on, and that's why we need to stay home."

In the future, (and I know this is hard), I'd do the same thing (take a break from the playgroups) but NOT tell DD why-- I would not want her to dwell on it, because it is not a punishment.


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

LAB, I've been in your shoes with this - _a lot_!

Here's what we do with our two who can both lose it.
1. The standard rule is that if you can't leave nicely, we won't come back. I work hard to ensure that they don't get to that meltdown place (see below), but if they do we don't go back _next time_. It's framed to them, before and calmly, that they're clearly not happy when they lose it, and it's hard on the people around them; that this is an area that is in their control and they do have control of their bodies, and that there are points when they can make the choices that will keep them from getting that upset. Then I try to be proactive as we go along and support them to understand and apply this.

2. We outline the order of the day...first this, second that...and give timelines as they seem old enough to get it.

3. We give a minimum of a 10 minute transition warning, and usually frame it as what we're doing next (we're leaving in 10 minutes, and when we get home we'll ----...ok, 5 minutes...).

4. When I see one of them starting to escalate or lose control, I connect and reflect ("hey, you're sure liking that game!" touch, touch - DS really likes firm rubbing up and down his back). If this doesn't work, I try to move them to another activity entirely.

5. If a meltdown occurs, we debrief when it's over. We talk about what maybe preceeded it, how they were feeling, and what strategies they could use next time. With DS, I really emphasize that he does have control - not blaming him, but empowering him to try to make better choices next time.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joensally* 
LAB, I've been in your shoes with this - _a lot_!

Here's what we do with our two who can both lose it.
1. The standard rule is that if you can't leave nicely, we won't come back. I work hard to ensure that they don't get to that meltdown place (see below), but if they do we don't go back _next time_. It's framed to them, before and calmly, that they're clearly not happy when they lose it, and it's hard on the people around them; that this is an area that is in their control and they do have control of their bodies, and that there are points when they can make the choices that will keep them from getting that upset. Then I try to be proactive as we go along and support them to understand and apply this.

2. We outline the order of the day...first this, second that...and give timelines as they seem old enough to get it.

3. We give a minimum of a 10 minute transition warning, and usually frame it as what we're doing next (we're leaving in 10 minutes, and when we get home we'll ----...ok, 5 minutes...).

4. When I see one of them starting to escalate or lose control, I connect and reflect ("hey, you're sure liking that game!" touch, touch - DS really likes firm rubbing up and down his back). If this doesn't work, I try to move them to another activity entirely.

5. If a meltdown occurs, we debrief when it's over. We talk about what maybe preceeded it, how they were feeling, and what strategies they could use next time. With DS, I really emphasize that he does have control - not blaming him, but empowering him to try to make better choices next time.

I love this. I especially like empowering them by believing in their ability to handle the disappointment of leaving. I think this is big.

A few months ago, we were dealing with my ds's very big reactions to not being able to borrow a toy or bike of a friend's who wouldn't share them. This was hard because I actually felt a bit irked that this kiddo wouldn't share his stuff. But that's life and we really tried to help ds see that he didn't have to let someone else's choices dictate his feelings and how the rest of his day went. I think it was really empowering to him...he could choose to say "bummer. well, i'll go play on the monkey bars and have a great time!".

I'm hoping some of this same principle will apply to the transitions of leaving a fun place when it's time. This is been a big challenge. Thanks for these great tips!


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## maryjane (Jul 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joensally* 
5. If a meltdown occurs, we debrief when it's over. We talk about what maybe preceeded it, how they were feeling, and what strategies they could use next time. With DS, I really emphasize that he does have control - not blaming him, but empowering him to try to make better choices next time.

joensally -- can you give some specific examples of language for your "empowering him to try to make better choices next time." More specifics would help. I think I try to do this, but I don't notice that it makes *any* difference. Some languaging might help me, personally. Thanks!


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## mummy marja (Jan 19, 2005)

Ha, I can't believe I'm adding to this already way too long thread...









Several times the issue of consequences of a tantrum was questioned. Many feel that if you don't impose a consequence, that means there is none. I disagree. Kids don't _like_ having tantrums. They don't feel good. I know they don't , because I've had them! Every single one of us wants to feel good. Feeling yucky is the consequence of the tantrum.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

:

ITA with Mummy Marja


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
Can I ask (not snarkily at all) for examples, here?

How do you model that you will not be hit or screamed at? How, physically, in a public park where you cannot walk away safely, can you represent that to a screaming, flailing, tantrumming, lashing-out two or three or four year old?

Because a child in that out-of-control mode is not really in a place to hear you calmly say "This is my body and its not okay to hit." And you can't leave the situation, especially if you're there alone with the child and/or have more than one child with you.

Further, how do you remove yourself from the situation, even at home, without that timeout=abandonment thing going on?

These are all questions I struggled with greatly when my DS was the OPs age. After a very calm, nearly tantrum-free baby and toddlerhood, he started pitching megafits at age 3 and they continued for over a year. Nothing we tried would prevent them in certain circumstances, and he did *not* seem to learn from discussions afterwards... "in the moment" discussions were like ashes in the wind because he was not far beyond logic during them.

You know I have often wondered the same thing when people say these sorts of things. The only way I seem to be able to demonstrate that I will not tolerate being hit generally means I physically walk away or restrain my dd who is 2 and at the height of tantrum mode.

I have read this thread with interest because I can see the OP's situation being mine in a few years, even now she has these tantrums where she rages but while I so desperately would love advice ( and not suggestions to read XYZ book) I feel like on this board people spout off a lot of stuff but rarely does it translate into practical hands on advice IMO.

Shay


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

This happened to us the other day in fact at the park -- so I have been there and I find it a tad annoying when I get condescending statements like "oh my kid was a joy at *whatever-your-kid's-age-is* ... just wait until *your-kid-is-my-kid's-age*. That way, (collective) you will always have a one up on the other person... as my kid will NEVER be your kid's age when your kid is their age... follow?

Anyway, I think the point is not that my child doesn't have tantrums, it is that I respond to them differently. Note, I didn't say "cuz I am a super mom and you suck" I said, I respond to them, _*differently*_. The way I respond gets a very effective and positive response from my dd... that is _*our*_ experience.

YYMV, but for the record I will say that (imo) attempting to meet dd's needs, communicating that I am willing and wanting to work with her and am not her adversary, remembering to honor our relationship before honoring the "need to stick to things so I don't give in", remaining calm, focusing on just the two of us rather than worrying if other parents think I am doing a "good job" with her, remembering that she has been on this planet less time than the pair of underpants I am wearing has been, and also remembering that the only way to teach self control and self discipline is to show it toward her in moments she feels out of control goes so much further than losing it and punishing.

I have said it before and I will say it again... I firmly believe it: when children are out of control, they are not looking for us to control them, they are looking to us to control _ourselves_.

If we can't control ourselves and we are 20 some odd years older and allegedly more wiser, why in the world would we expect them to display such mature self discipline?


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

That is why the books get recommended. You can't sum GD up into a little posting. There are so many books and it is a complicated subject. You can't take all that advice and put it into one or two paragraphs.

It would be like saying "Give me advice for this algebra problem, but just tell me how to to solve the problem. I don't understand how the math works and I don't want to read the book"

I think that GD can be totally different from how we were raised and how society views children. It isn;t just as simple as do xyz and then abc will happen. It is really about understanding the concept as a whole, and I really think that you have to read at least a few good GD books to really start understanding and being able to figure out what to say and do in tough situations.

I tried to do GD without reading very much and I really didn't get it.
I felt like GD was about not really parenting, just go give your kid a hug no matter what they do!

After reading a lot I understand it better. And it really does work in our house. We are not permissive parents, and Owen is a great kid. The more that we work as a team, the more that I treat him the way that I would treat my DP or a good friend, the better and easier things get.

Life with a 4yo is amazing when you can remove most of the conflict. We have so much fun together, and Owen gets to do lots of fun things that would never work if he and I weren't a good team.

No one can tell you what you need to say to your kid to get them to respond. GD is about understanding a basic sense of principles for how children should be treated and what they need.
I think that you have to read some books with in depth explanations to get to that point of understanding. (it was definitely that way for me...and still is!)


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

oh and I just wanted to add, I think many of these *debates* could be avoided if the threads were worded a tad differently. In other words, if you just want support maybe clarify that.

"I don't know if this punishment was too harsh but it is done and I just want support 100%"

rather than "what do you think"

because you know,people are going to tell you what they think... especially when it is directly asked.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Does the child have a bike of her own?

If ds wanted to "ride the bike to the car as we were leaving the park", *I would engage and connect with what he LOVED about the bike!* 'You really like this bike because it is purple and has a basket?!' 'Oh, it is a big girl bike and has dangle-y things in the handle bars! Wow! That looks so fun! You'd really like to ride the bike?! Hmmm...we don't know whose bike it is. What if we get a snack from the car and then ask around to see whose bike it is? Maybe you could have a little ride on it before we go. Or do you want to stop on the way home and get some ice cream and ride _your_ bike? Oh, do you think we could buy a basket for your bike, when we run errands on Saturday? You'd like that. Ok. I don't see whose bike it is. I don't believe they'd mind if you ride it right here back and forth a bit. Wow, that is a fun bike! Hop off and let's look at it again. Do you want to take a picture of the bike with you on it? Ok, let's do that. Well, let's go race to the car and you can ride your bike some more when we get home.' (obviously, not exactly those words, but the *intent* is to SHARE THE JOY!)

If ds's distress is just too far gone (HALT), that any talking just makes everything worse, I would SIT DOWN and offer to hold ds while he experiences his big emotions. I have sat down in the Walmart, at the store, and at the park on several different occasions, just as I do at home. I give him my undivided attention and support as he moves through the emotions *with me*, rather than against me. This works for us *connect*, so that he is not flailing through his emotions unanchored.

I am reminded of one of the first lessons about scuba diving, "there is nothing at the surface that you do not have right here (air tank)". This allows me to realize that *leaving* a situation isn't necessary. Just BE together, right here. That helps us work through things _together_, rather than ds trying to get me to stay, and me trying to leave. The energy is flowing in the same direction, when I meet him where he is.

The challenge was for me to learn to be calm in the face of his physicality, since I have a lot of childhood triggers to being hit. Just helping to block or move back from any striking out, prevents me from being hit, and helps to de-escalate ds when I offer *"I want to help, what do you need?"* This provides an opportunity to use language to meet needs, instead of the physicality that many young children default to when stressed and overwhelmed with their emotions. Hitting is not necessary, when we are working together.

Here is another thread that addresses how to help children with their Big Emotions. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=723411

HTH, Pat


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleaugustbaby* 
She quieted down and said ok, and then was fine after that, and has been fine all afternoon.

Did I handle this ok? WWYD? I always feel like I suck at this discipline stuff...

You know, I reread this and I think the proof is in the puddin'. Your DD reacted OK-- that means she is comfortable with the consequences. She now understands the boundaries. Maybe she did not before.

You are a single mama, so you are coming from a place I am not and I respect that very much. It sounds like what you did WORKED (and your DD was happy), and that is the bottom line. Your relationship did not suffer. She did not suffer . . .and she learned, and that is the goal of discipline.


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius* 
You know, I reread this and I think the proof is in the puddin'. Your DD reacted OK-- that means she is comfortable with the consequences. She now understands the boundaries. Maybe she did not before.

You are a single mama, so you are coming from a place I am not and I respect that very much. It sounds like what you did WORKED (and your DD was happy), and that is the bottom line. *Your relationship did not suffer.* She did not suffer . . .and she learned, and that is the goal of discipline.

I agree with this. Esp the part about maintaining the relationship. That's my biggest priority with my kids. When I realize I've blown it with them I always own up to it and apologize.

Another thought, sometimes discipline hurts. I just came in from a run. I _hate_ running with a firey passion! But, as the mother of two kids, it's the fastest and most efficient way for me to get exercise, to aid in dropping a few pounds, and to be healthier for my family. Training my body to run is discipline. Running also hurts, sometimes on the outside as well as on the inside. It's not easy for me. I don't like it. But, in the long run (







ummm, pun not intended), it's good for me. Would I have rather stayed in and had another cup of coffee? You bet. But I _disciplined_ myself to get out there and run this morning. And I'm glad I did. I guess I'm saying that even if skipping the playgroup or pizza party hurts, that doesn't mean it's an entirely bad thing.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
This happened to us the other day in fact at the park -- so I have been there and I find it a tad annoying when I get condescending statements like "oh my kid was a joy at *whatever-your-kid's-age-is* ... just wait until *your-kid-is-my-kid's-age*. That way, (collective) you will always have a one up on the other person... as my kid will NEVER be your kid's age when your kid is their age... follow?

Anyway, I think the point is not that my child doesn't have tantrums, it is that I respond to them differently.

I am one who has pointed out age differences and it's not at all meant to one up anyone. My goodness, not at all. When my first was younger I would look at my best friend's daughter's behavior and think this doesn't have to be this way. Maybe she could try x,y or z. Well, a major humbling and growing experience came when my child entered more challenging years. That's my only point...things change. What worked at one time might not at another age. It's great to share but it's also important to recognize that other people's children are different and families are different and responses and reactions will be different. Yes, this is a GD forum and we all fall on different points along the spectrum.

I have to say that saying "respond to them differently" really does make it sound like the parent isn't responding best since the tantrum is out of control.

I have to say, my son has never had a tantrum like the OP's description. I'm guessing some of you haven't either and it's probably more likely due to the child's temperment and age rather that the parent's response. I guess it just sounds a little like blaming to me.


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

Quote:

'You really like this bike because it is purple and has a basket?!' 'Oh, it is a big girl bike and has dangle-y things in the handle bars! Wow! That looks so fun! You'd really like to ride the bike?! Hmmm...we don't know whose bike it is. What if we get a snack from the car and then ask around to see whose bike it is? Maybe you could have a little ride on it before we go. Or do you want to stop on the way home and get some ice cream and ride your bike? Oh, do you think we could buy a basket for your bike, when we run errands on Saturday? You'd like that. Ok. I don't see whose bike it is. I don't believe they'd mind if you ride it right here back and forth a bit. Wow, that is a fun bike! Hop off and let's look at it again. Do you want to take a picture of the bike with you on it? Ok, let's do that. Well, let's go race to the car and you can ride your bike some more when we get home.' (obviously, not exactly those words, but the *intent* is to SHARE THE JOY!
Letting a child ride another child's bike WITHOUT that child's permission is completely disrecptful and wrong IMO. Taking a picture of your child on that child's bike (again without permission) is also completly wrong IMO. I believe it is very important to teach respect for OTHER people's property.

We share bikes and scooters at the playgroud with friends all the time...but it is WITH the child's permission. I would never let my kids just go up to someone's toy and use it without the permission of that chld. Even if it is just "back and forth"..right there.

I am sure my neighbor would totally mind if I just drove his car up and down the street (right there) because I liked it and wanted to try it out. Or if I got in and had someone take a picture of me in the drivers seat. I think almost eveyrone knows that is just WRONG. IMO..it is just as wrong for a child to ride another child's bike without permission.

I would emphasize with the attributes of the bike that she liked and sympathize,I woudl try to connect, I would sit with them there and help them calm down and be with them, but I absolutely would not let them use another child's toy without permission. EVERY child deserves respect..not just your own.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ameliabedelia* 
Letting a child ride another child's bike WITHOUT that child's permission is completely disrecptful and wrong IMO. Taking a picture of your child on that child's bike (again without permission) is also completly wrong IMO. I believe it is very important to teach respect for OTHER people's property.

We share bikes and scooters at the playgroud with friends all the time...but it is WITH the child's permission. I would never let my kids just go up to someone's toy and use it without the permission of that chld. Even if it is just "back and forth"..right there.

I am sure my neighbor would totally mind if I just drove his car up and down the street (right there) because I liked it and wanted to try it out. Or if I got in and had someone take a picture of me in the drivers seat. I think almost eveyrone knows that is just WRONG. IMO..it is just as wrong for a child to ride another child's bike without permission.

I would emphasize with the attributes of the bike that she liked and sympathize,I woudl try to connect, I would sit with them there and help them calm down and be with them, but I absolutely would not let them use another child's toy without permission. EVERY child deserves respect..not just your own.

ITA. I missed this part of the post. To me this sounds like trying every possible avenue to avoid a conflict. We're going to be disappointed in life...I guess I don't see the benefit in always trying to avoid conflict or "negative" feelings. I'm much more interested in my own reaction to my child's feelings than trying to manage them and make them happy all the time.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
Anyway, I think the point is not that my child doesn't have tantrums, it is that I respond to them differently. Note, I didn't say "cuz I am a super mom and you suck" I said, I respond to them, _*differently*_. The way I respond gets a very effective and positive response from my dd... that is _*our*_ experience.


I think your experiences, perspectives, and advice is extremely valuable to this forum. Strategies such as the ones you use with your dc have greatly improved my relationship with dd.

I think it is really important, however, to understand that, for whatever reason, not all children will respond to these strategies. For whatever reason, some children might need consequences some of the time. For whatever reason, sometimes these strategies just leave me vulnerable to being physically hurt by my child









I guess sometimes I feel really betrayed by this board. I have a challenging dd, and I have been reading here and applying strategies for 4 years (she is now 6). There was a time that we were "punishment/consequence" free. There was a time that I thought time-outs were cruel. And then things changed (most recently, a move that dd is having an extremely difficult time adjusting to), and regardless of how proactive I am....how attentive I am.....how understanding or willing I am to work it out....dd just wants to hurt me. She feels bad, and she wants me to feel as bad as she does.

I guess I just want people to understand that, you know, you really can do all the right things and have a different outcome. I still don't know what to do in my situation, and we are seeking professional help. But I feel like the message on the GD board can often be: this is the only gentle way, and any other way will damage your relationship.....and if it doesn't work for you, then you must be doing it wrong. It is very much like kicking someone when they are down.

Of course, this has nothing to do with the op's situation. It sound to me like their relationship is very strong and secure. A few months ago, I could have said the same about my relationship with dd
 






:


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Is there anyone here that thinks children don't need consequences?

Because I have not read that on this thread.

Punishments and consequences are not the same thing.

FWIW I have a 4 yo son who is VERY challenging and spirited. And GD works for us just fine. It isn't that I just don't understand what it is like to have a child with a challenging temperament. Heck, he just pushed our cat out a 2nd story window the other day.







:

I think trying to set it up so that your child never experiences consequences is PERMISSIVE Parenting, NOT Gentle Discipline.

I think that people get the 2 confused.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
I guess I just want people to understand that, you know, you really can do all the right things and have a different outcome.

Absolutely. Had I only had one child, I may have continued to believe that I was the one who controlled the outcome. (Not consciously.) But, now that I have three children, I laugh at myself that I ever would have thought that. IMO, parents give themselves entirely too much credit/blame for their children. You know . . .from parents thinking they "created" a child who would eat anything to parents who think they "created" a child who won't sleep through the night. Or, then there was my lightbulb moment when I found out that Jan Hunt has one child. Ohhhh . . .when I had only one one child, I would never have dreamed how different having 2 and then 3 would be. Certain solutions that work when you have 1 just don't apply in a bigger household. Same goes with any child/parent with special needs, single parenting, etc.

Comparing different situations (in terms of the children themselves, family issues, etc.) is so hard. I think coming here for ideas and support is wonderful, but I always try to keep the differences in mind . . .and understand that there are never any guarantees when it comes to parenting, or life in general.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ameliabedelia* 
but I absolutely would not let them use another child's toy without permission. EVERY child deserves respect..not just your own.

Thanks for pointing that out. I totally agree with respect for the other child as well. I think we'd have to take each situation as it came. I choose to be present with my child and the owner of the bike to find a solution which works for both of them. I talk to ds before we take anything to the park, so that he can be aware and empowered that others might request to play with his toys. I try not to project a story onto my child or another child and we'd honor the child's response.

Pat


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius* 
Absolutely. Had I only had one child, I may have continued to believe that I was the one who controlled the outcome. (Not consciously.) But, now that I have three children, I laugh at myself that I ever would have thought that. IMO, parents give themselves entirely too much credit/blame for their children. You know . . .from parents thinking they "created" a child who would eat anything to parents who think they "created" a child who won't sleep through the night. Or, then there was my lightbulb moment when I found out that Jan Hunt has one child. Ohhhh . . .when I had only one one child, I would never have dreamed how different having 2 and then 3 would be. Certain solutions that work when you have 1 just don't apply in a bigger household. Same goes with any child/parent with special needs, single parenting, etc.

Comparing different situations (in terms of the children themselves, family issues, etc.) is so hard. I think coming here for ideas and support is wonderful, but I always try to keep the differences in mind . . .and understand that there are never any guarantees when it comes to parenting, or life in general.

You hit the nail on the head here. I might as well be quiet because you said it all and there's nothing I could add....well said!!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Captain Crunchy and Dubfam,

I'm hearing from you that an ideal form of GD works for you and your child(ren). What I'm hearing from others is that they been trying that and it hasn't had quite as positive of an experience.

From what I can tell, we have a situation where you either think they are doing it wrong or, the more likely scenario, is that your "method" does not work well for those families in whatever stage they're in.

I also hear some parents say that things were going along well when their kids were younger and that things changed as the children grew. This is a valid point and I don't think it's intended to be condescending. It's just the way things are.

For the record I was raised GD. At one point when I was older I asked to be rewarded with cash money for grades and my parents went along with it. (this is not something that I feel falls under "ideal" in the GD world)

My point is, that as children grow (whether that be to 2 or 20) they begin to tell us what works for them and we need to honor that even if it goes slightly outside of our ideals (within reason, of course).

I did not even consider a reward system for DC until she was 5.5. I still feel it's a really bad idea. But, she wanted to do something that was really difficult for her and TOLD ME that this would help her. DC has been asking for a chore chart, another thing that I never imagined hanging in my home. Oh, my&#8230; : - )

Does this mean that we start implementing harsh punishments because it seems to "work" for our child? No, I don't think so. I think one should reflect on the situation, take full responsibility for any role we may have played in getting our child to that place where they were punished, work hard getting back to a place where discipline fits our ideas, and figure out the core of why the punishment seemed to work.

On a funny note, we had a really difficult holiday season last year. Since then, I've found out that DC just can't travel with the same stamina that I can and that ANY TV puts her out of sorts but I didn't know that at the time. I was just a loss as to why my normally fun happy kid was acting so crazy. After one particularly ridiculous incident I told here she was going to get punished if she did it again. She stopped and I thought, "Oh, sh!t." I hadn't gotten around to giving her punishment yet when we began talking about the situation and she said, "Mama, what's a punishment and when can I have it?"


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama* 
Captain Crunchy and Dubfam,

I'm hearing from you that an ideal form of GD works for you and your child(ren). What I'm hearing from others is that they been trying that and it hasn't had quite as positive of an experience.

From what I can tell, we have a situation where you either think they are doing it wrong or, the more likely scenario, is that *your "method" does not work well for those families in whatever stage they're in.*


Are you saying that GD doesn't work for everyone? I never said that it did. Maybe there are kids out their that GD wouldn't work for.









I think that people have been implying that kids cant possibly learn unless they are punished. I strongly disagree with that, and that is what most of my post have been about.

I don;t know what you mean by my "Method" as I haven't referenced anything other than GD...and I thought that we were in the GD forum. I haven't even gotten into very many specifics. Maybe you are confusing me with other ppl?


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
This happened to us the other day in fact at the park -- so I have been there and I find it a tad annoying when I get condescending statements like "oh my kid was a joy at *whatever-your-kid's-age-is* ... just wait until *your-kid-is-my-kid's-age*. That way, (collective) you will always have a one up on the other person... as my kid will NEVER be your kid's age when your kid is their age... follow?



I hope you aren't taking my question as one of the "wait until you have a kid my age" questions. It wasn't meant as condescending at all!

My problem is this - I get the theory. I have read the theories. I love theory - but I tend to fall down in the theory-to-practice moment.

So when someone (you, in this case) says "I will not consent to being screamed at, and they know that." I really *would* like concrete examples of how others do that -- what are ways to convey that to a 2-3-4 year old, without shaming or punishing? Ways that are safe in a public park?


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
Are you saying that GD doesn't work for everyone? I never said that it did. Maybe there are kids out their that GD wouldn't work for.









...

I don;t know what you mean by my "Method" as I haven't referenced anything other than GD...and I thought that we were in the GD forum. I haven't even gotten into very many specifics. Maybe you are confusing me with other ppl?

On the contrary, I do think that GD works for all kids and I think it's the only ethical way to discipline.

I just think that GD has many different faces, if you get my meaning. There are people who think "logical consequences" aka (imo) punishments fall within GD. There are people who think that rewards fall into GD and so on and so on.

I was responding to the impression I got from you that a particular form of GD that works for you would work for everyone.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
I think that people have been implying that kids cant possibly learn unless they are punished. I strongly disagree with that, and that is what most of my post have been about.

I agree with you 100%. But, this gets back to the semantical thing. I, personally, think that we make very subtle and complex distinctions between natural consequences, logical ones and punishments. It is often confusing to _me_. I no longer believe that children receive these distinctions as clearly as we think they do.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama* 
On the contrary, I do think that GD works for all kids and I think it's the only ethical way to discipline.

I just think that GD has many different faces, if you get my meaning. There are people who think "logical consequences" aka (imo) punishments fall within GD. There are people who think that rewards fall into GD and so on and so on.

*I was responding to the impression I got from you that a particular form of GD that works for you would work for everyone.
*


And what did I post that led you to that impression?


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius* 
Absolutely. Had I only had one child, I may have continued to believe that I was the one who controlled the outcome. (Not consciously.) But, now that I have three children, I laugh at myself that I ever would have thought that. IMO, parents give themselves entirely too much credit/blame for their children. You know . . .from parents thinking they "created" a child who would eat anything to parents who think they "created" a child who won't sleep through the night. Or, then there was my lightbulb moment when I found out that Jan Hunt has one child. Ohhhh . . .when I had only one one child, I would never have dreamed how different having 2 and then 3 would be. Certain solutions that work when you have 1 just don't apply in a bigger household. Same goes with any child/parent with special needs, single parenting, etc.

Comparing different situations (in terms of the children themselves, family issues, etc.) is so hard. I think coming here for ideas and support is wonderful, but I always try to keep the differences in mind . . .and understand that there are never any guarantees when it comes to parenting, or life in general.









: I have 2 kids who are 13.5 years apart and lets just say I thought I knew all about kids, man my dd who is 2 has made me eat humble pie on many occasions.

Your post brought up some really relevant points that I feel never discussed on these boards or even in some of the books that are often touted. I am convinced that some of these authors have extremely mellow laid back kids and guess what its easy peasy to dole out the advice when you don't have the kid that pushes every last button.

Shay


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
And what did I post that led you to that impression?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 

And it really does work in our house.


ETA: Dubfam - I just got the impression. I'm totally open to having gotten the wrong one!! Sorry, if I jumped to conclusions.

We may just have a different impression of GD. Perhaps the books you have read and the discussions here lately have given you an impression that GD is a much narrower concept than the impression I get. And, that's OK. Honestly, I haven't been around this form for a long time and it may be that things have changed.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
I really *would* like concrete examples of how others do that -- what are ways to convey that to a 2-3-4 year old, without shaming or punishing? Ways that are safe in a public park?

I would just say "I don't like to be talked to in that tone of voice, please." And pretty much, if she were raising her voice to me, there would be something she felt pretty strongly about communicating. So then I'd focus on dealing with that issue with her.

Sometimes I think people are a little too quick to write off the parenting skills or techniques that they see working well with other kids, and unfairly attribute too much to the personality or character of the child with whom they are struggling.

It just makes sense. In the work place, some people can come into a situation and motivate and inspire everyone present. Another individual might have a negative effect on that very same group of people, encounter only opposition and hardship, and will walk out complaining about how difficult and unmanageable the group was.

I've seen it with dd's teachers. Dd comes from a background very high risk for problems with socialization and behavior. When she was challenged by a teacher with poor skills, she became profoundly dysfunctional in a classroom setting, to the point where they started tossing out the idea of testing and official diagnoses.

Taken to a new setting with an excellent teacher and she was again a model child, considered one of the easiest and brightest children in the class.

One of dd's Waldorf teachers was talking about dealing with tough kids. She remarked 'when I find myself struggling with a child, I step back and ask myself - what is it that this child needs that I'm not providing? Nearly always there is an answer, and when it is applied, everything improves.'

I"m not suggesting that children's problems are all caused by parents, or that there is a need or reason to find blame somewhere. Rather, I'm just thinking that, as parents, when we see examples of kids and parents who seem to be doing well together - don't just write it off as an 'easy' child and a 'lucky' parent. Instead, be open to the idea that there might be something to learn there.


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## towsonmama (May 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama* 
But, this gets back to the semantical thing. I, personally, think that we make very subtle and complex distinctions between natural consequences, logical ones and punishments. It is often confusing to _me_. I no longer believe that children receive these distinctions as clearly as we think they do.

Hi, ICM!!







I've been thinking about you lately.

I also struggle with the semantics used here in the GD forum. I think it's a large part of the reason I've been shying away from MDC lately. There are strong feelings stirred by the use of these words and oftentimes it seems to me people are arguing about the same thing but calling it something different.

LAB, you're probably not even reading this thread anymore but fwiw it sounds like you tried to make the best decision you could in a heated moment and the fact that you later examined your choice and sought input is admirable. I don't have any suggestions because you already stated you think staying away from playgroup worked. My dd is 4.5 and very prone to getting overtired and tantrum-y. I'm working on minimizing the triggers the best I can--even though for me that means more time at home than I'd like.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 

I"m not suggesting that children's problems are all caused by parents, or that there is a need or reason to find blame somewhere. Rather, I'm just thinking that, as parents, when we see examples of kids and parents who seem to be doing well together - don't just write it off as an 'easy' child and a 'lucky' parent. Instead, be open to the idea that there might be something to learn there.









:


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I"m not suggesting that children's problems are all caused by parents, or that there is a need or reason to find blame somewhere. Rather, I'm just thinking that, as parents, when we see examples of kids and parents who seem to be doing well together - don't just write it off as an 'easy' child and a 'lucky' parent. Instead, be open to the idea that there might be something to learn there.

I kind of think that is why most of us are here....to learn and grow as parents. I think that we are here because we *are* open to learning how to parent without coersion and punishment. Many, many of us here hold that up as the gold standard--me included!

But what I am saying is, our family moved and my dd lost her freaking mind. SHe is so angry some days that her only desire is for me to be miserable. Some days she wakes up with that goal and keeps it all. day. long.

Now, millions of families move every year. How many children react this way? To this extent? I am guessing I didn't get the "easy" child, kwim?

And, right now, I am having to open my parenting toolbox *really* wide to maintain any sort of peace in my home. I am looking forward to the day that we can ditch the consequences/punishments (I, too, find these distinctions incredibly complex) and return to discipline based on a strong relationship. But that is just not working for us right now. And, yes, I believe that is because of dd's personality.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama* 
ETA: Dubfam - I just got the impression. I'm totally open to having gotten the wrong one!! Sorry, if I jumped to conclusions.

We may just have a different impression of GD. *Perhaps the books you have read and the discussions here lately have given you an impression that GD is a much narrower concept than the impression I get.* And, that's OK. Honestly, I haven't been around this form for a long time and it may be that things have changed.

Again, I would like to know what I posted that suggested that I have a narrow view of GD, or an unusual one. I really am not getting what you are referring to. I have only stated that we use GD and don't believe in using punishments. I don't think that I got into any real specifics of how I parent otherwise.

I know you aren't being snarky, and that isn't where I am coming from either. I just want to understand what I posted that led you to think this?


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
Again, I would like to know what I posted that suggested that I have a narrow view of GD, or an unusual one. I really am not getting what you are referring to. I have only stated that we use GD and don't believe in using punishments. I don't think that I got into any real specifics of how I parent otherwise.

I know you aren't being snarky, and that isn't where I am coming from either. I just want to understand what I posted that led you to think this?

I know you didn't. That's why I said I got an impression and I can't really say exactly where I got it from. And, I didn't mean "narrow" as in "narrow minded" or anything like that. Honestly, I kind of got the impression that you were more like me and many, many of others here who believe that punishments, logical consequences, reward systems and etc. are not ideal.

My point was that, if you have that ideal and everything works out for you, great but that others may be in the exact same situation and find that it's just not working. And, like Sunnmama described, may have to open their GD toolbox further than they would like.

And that probably gets me to where I got the impression that an ideal form of GD is working for you&#8230;because I just can't see anyone resorting to logical consequences or reward systems and saying that things are really working great for their family because if I was doing this I would consider us to be in a challenging place.

Does that make sense?


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *towsonmama* 
Hi, ICM!!







I've been thinking about you lately.

Hey, TM!!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
And, right now, I am having to open my parenting toolbox *really* wide to maintain any sort of peace in my home. I am looking forward to the day that we can ditch the consequences/punishments (I, too, find these distinctions incredibly complex) and return to discipline based on a strong relationship. But that is just not working for us right now. And, yes, I believe that is because of dd's personality.









s


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## my3peanuts (Nov 25, 2006)

I haven't read all the replies but my opinion is that what you did was ok. Sure you could've probably done something differently but someone here said what you did was 'cruel' and I absolutely disagree. If keeping your dd from a party & then coming to a Gentle Discipline forum and asking for advice on what you did is cruel mothering than wow, I don't even know what we'd call someone who beats their child with a belt. Because to me, THAT is cruel.

Anyway, just wanted to get that out and say I think you sound like a great mom.


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## Mammy Julie (Sep 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 

I"m not suggesting that children's problems are all caused by parents, or that there is a need or reason to find blame somewhere. Rather, I'm just thinking that, as parents, when we see examples of kids and parents who seem to be doing well together - don't just write it off as an 'easy' child and a 'lucky' parent. Instead, be open to the idea that there might be something to learn there.


ITA. I dont think theres such a thing as a difficult child or an easy child - I prefer to think of it as an easy or difficult relationship. Even children who are considered difficult will come across someone in their life who truly brings out the best in them so that to me suggests that its not the child but the way people relate to him/her. Just as as adults we meet people who we are compatible with and some we arent - we still need to find ways to get along. I guess the difficult part is figuring out exactly which way will suit that child but I dont think punishment has its place. In fact I would go so far as to say for a child who is really showing challenging behaviour that punishment is probably the worst thing you could do.

Punishment to me comes under conditional parenting - if I dont like what you are doing I will punish you for it. Children want to feel accepted and if they dont get that acceptance from their parents where will they get it from? Yes they need direction and its not unreasonable to tell a child when you dont want them to hit you. If Adam hits out i look him in the eye and tell him 'I dont like to be hit. It hurts me.' or I will ask him why he is hitting me. If he hits out during a tantrum I will physically restrain him by holding onto his hands if needed - whilst I think a tantrum is a good way of letting off steam I wont accept injury as a result of it and I think thats a good way of giving him that message without needing to punish. I have also in the past encouraged him to hit into a pillow to get out his frustration.

I dont think any child wants to have tantrums and I think having those strong emotions and not knowing how to express them is scary for them. Punishing for them can do 2 things - it can make them hold in those emotions rather then finding more appropriate ways of expressing them and in some ways it makes them feel they have been punished twice - by the tantrum and by their parents reaction to it. For me the best way of handling tantrums is not to give in to what they are for. So in the case of the op her dc had a tantrum because she wanted to play on the other childs bike - she did not get to play on the childs bike so wont see tantrums as getting her her own way. Thats a lesson in itself without needing to punish.

I do agree that maybe staying away from play group for a while was the best thing to do but only because she was overtired and obviously found it overwhelming. I personally wouldnt have put it to the child that it was as a result of her tantrum.

Another thing that caught my attention that no-one has touched on is what she said to you about her dad. I know I'm new on here so I do apologise if I'm overstepping the mark but it did make me wonder about her relationship with her dad especially since at a time when she was out of control she still was able to throw that at you. My sister is a single mum and her children had similar outbursts around that age. I think they felt insecure in their relationship with him and that in turn made them worry about their relationship with my sister even though she was always there for them.Not sure if that makes sense but as someone else said the issues faced by single parent families are slightely different and I wondered if the tantrums could be an outlet for her feelings about that iyswim.


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## dawnfla (Oct 24, 2006)

I feel that was an acceptable punishment. But really, it matters what you think, you know your child best and her level of understanding. Will she stop and realize next time that if she does it again she will miss out? Only you know as her mom.
I have had others disagree with certain punishment choices, but i understand my children and their feelings, as long as i am trying ( thats all we can do right?) to teach right from wrong, then i decide what would be best. What work for some wont work for other children.
In my own house, i can rationaize and explain with my oldest, and it will have an affect. My middle will roll the eyes at me and do it again in 10 minutes without a consequence


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:

The only thing that worked was for us to stop getting into situations where she would tantrum when it was time to leave. For me that also meant I didn't get to socialize and hang out with my friends sometimes. Once she realized her friends were getting together for lunch at So-n-So's house, but we weren't going because she would throw a tantrum when we left, the tantrums were diminished.

She still needs help transitioning. I give her warning before it's time to go. Sometimes she starts up one of her tantrums when it's time to go home, and I have to figure out a way to connect with her and calm her down. But she understands the ultimate consequence is that we avoid situations where she'll melt down upon leaving. She's grown out of it a little bit, but I also think missing out on some fun things helped her understand.
I haven't read all the responses, but yeah that. I have a 5 year old who is mostly past this stage and can handle these transitions better now. But he used to do the exact same thing. And that was how I handled it.

I don't think its too harsh. I do think that knowing everyone else got to go was probably a little mean. In those instances, I don't tell him what everyone else was headed off to do, but if he does ask, I'll tell him.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

For those new to the forum: The *Gentle Discipline Forum Guidelines* are posted at the top as a "sticky".

Pat

Quote:

Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems.

Hitting is never the best way to teach a child. Even in the case of real danger - as when a child runs out into the road - you can grab him, sit him down, look him in the eyes, and tell him why he must never do that again. The panic in your voice will communicate your message much more effectively than any spanking. You can be dramatic without being abusive.

'Natural Family Living' by Peggy O'Mara
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=113264


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## momeg (Dec 4, 2006)

...you should not be asking yourself if taking the pizza party away is too harsh a punsihment for throwing a tantrum. Tantrums be damned! Make sure that kid knows good and well NEVER to run in the parking lot.

I don't really think tantrums are a big deal for a little one, no matter how furious and violent they are. Hell, my husband has tantrums on a daily basis, and he is 32 years old. At least for my three-year-old, it almost always means she is tired. I just sigh and take her home. Many a grocery cart has been left by me (half full, I might add) in the middle of the store, while I haul out my screaming monkey-child over my shoulder.

However, I do think that running away from a parent in a parking lot is really really serious. I haven't read all of these posts, but I haven't seen much mentioned about that. GD is great and all for the everyday infractions of a person's life, but the natural consequence of running in a parking lot is getting hit by a car and dying. You can't really communicate that with gentle expanation to a child. There is this kid that goes to our park that is always taking off across the parking lot with his hippy mother in tow gently calling her son's name--"let's not run in the parking lot, Caleb, you could be hurt by a car, darling." Let me tell you that I have an iron grip on my kid's hand where large hunks of moving steel are concerned. And I have no qualms about putting the fear of God in her if she decides to take off half-cocked all on her own.

If that makes me a bad mother, then so be it. At least my kid lives to throw tantrums and embarass me another day.


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## mamameg (Feb 10, 2004)

I have not really waded through all the replies, but IME, threatening any punishment during a tantrum NEVER works. Generally, my child is just too irrational at that point and any mention of any consequence for her actions just sets her off even more. I find the best way to get through the tantrum is to just get through it. Ride it out. Help her feel reassured. Let her know I love her even when she is so very, very upset.

However. I do not disagree that making the parental, adult decision to stay away from playgroup for a week or two. I have done this. But it is not something I really communicate to my child as a punishment. I might just skip the playgroup and do something else, less stimulating with my child during that time, because I know she is having a hard time with some aspect of the playgroup. So rather than leaving the "choice" up to her, in a moment of distress, I make the choice for her, but do not hand it down as a punishment.


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## NaomiMcC (Mar 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momeg* 
...you should not be asking yourself if taking the pizza party away is too harsh a punsihment for throwing a tantrum. Tantrums be damned! Make sure that kid knows good and well NEVER to run in the parking lot.

I don't really think tantrums are a big deal for a little one, no matter how furious and violent they are. Hell, my husband has tantrums on a daily basis, and he is 32 years old. At least for my three-year-old, it almost always means she is tired. I just sigh and take her home. Many a grocery cart has been left by me (half full, I might add) in the middle of the store, while I haul out my screaming monkey-child over my shoulder.

However, I do think that running away from a parent in a parking lot is really really serious. I haven't read all of these posts, but I haven't seen much mentioned about that. GD is great and all for the everyday infractions of a person's life, but the natural consequence of running in a parking lot is getting hit by a car and dying. You can't really communicate that with gentle expanation to a child. There is this kid that goes to our park that is always taking off across the parking lot with his hippy mother in tow gently calling her son's name--"let's not run in the parking lot, Caleb, you could be hurt by a car, darling." Let me tell you that I have an iron grip on my kid's hand where large hunks of moving steel are concerned. And I have no qualms about putting the fear of God in her if she decides to take off half-cocked all on her own.

If that makes me a bad mother, then so be it. At least my kid lives to throw tantrums and embarass me another day.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

However. I do not disagree that making the parental, adult decision to stay away from playgroup for a week or two. I have done this. But it is not something I really communicate to my child as a punishment. I might just skip the playgroup and do something else, less stimulating with my child during that time, because I know she is having a hard time with some aspect of the playgroup. So rather than leaving the "choice" up to her, in a moment of distress, I make the choice for her, but do not hand it down as a punishment.
ITA with this. And I will also add that if DD asked if we could go to playgroup, I would explain why we weren't going. IF she asked.

There is a pizza place in our town with an attached playground which connects to a half-wall. On the other side of the half wall are tables where people are eating. DD has had repeated problems with wanting to climb this wall, which is not only not safe but disruptive to other patrons. I sort of understand her issue--it's confusing, because the wall seems like part of the playground. I haven't punished her for having trouble with not climbing this wall, even though it has been quite aggravating on several occasions in the past. Instead, on my own, I made the decision to skip eating at this place for a while until I think DD is more developmentally able to handle this issue. She has asked about going back, and I've explained why we aren't going back for a while.

When we do go back, too, I'll explain expectations ahead of time and ask her for a promise not to climb the wall. This is something that works very well with DD--lay out the problem ahead of time, state my concerns, and see if DD can agree to try not to engage on the problem behavior or has an idea on how to avoid it. In the OP's case, the next time she asked to go to the park (the pizza party seems unrelated), I would remind her of what happened last time, tell her I was concerned it would happen again, and ask what we could do to make sure it didn't. I'm sure this would not work for all kids. It works well for mine, though--the key is to get her agreement and cooperation ahead of time before we go to "that place."

On another topic, I'm interested and a bit bewildered by the parents on this thread saying that they will not "allow" a child to scream at them. I can picture (and I engage in) not allowing a child to hit me, but how do I not allow a child to scream at me? It also seemed like people were implying that screaming is met with consequences--really? I have on rare occasions sent DD to her room to scream (only if I felt like she was really screaming to annoy), but I've never felt this was especially GD.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momeg* 

However, I do think that running away from a parent in a parking lot is really really serious. I haven't read all of these posts, but I haven't seen much mentioned about that. *GD is great and all for the everyday infractions of a person's life, but the natural consequence of running in a parking lot is getting hit by a car and dying. You can't really communicate that with gentle expanation to a child.* There is this kid that goes to our park that is always taking off across the parking lot with his hippy mother in tow gently calling her son's name--"let's not run in the parking lot, Caleb, you could be hurt by a car, darling." Let me tell you that I have an iron grip on my kid's hand where large hunks of moving steel are concerned. *And I have no qualms about putting the fear of God in her if she decides to take off half-cocked all on her own.*

If that makes me a bad mother, then so be it. At least my kid lives to throw tantrums and embarass me another day.


SUre you can. You explain a million and one times exactly what can happen if they get hit by a car. You talk about how big the car is and how heavy it is etc.
You take your child up to parked cars, trucks and minivans of all sizes and show them how the vehicle is so much larger than them that the drivers cannot even see if a child runs in front of them. Have them touch the vehicles, talk about how solid they are and how badly it would hurt if one hit you-even a little bump.
Explain that it is important that they stay close to an adult because adults are much easier for drivers to see etc.

And keep explaining it NICELY. It works...trust me. I take my son out on public transportation all over a large city, and he doesn't even have to hold my hand most of the time. Because he has been empowered and he understands what he needs to do to be safe and why. And I don;t have an "easy" kid...he is VERY stubborn and strong willed (like his mama







) which is why GD is the ONLY thing that works in our home.
The more I try to force things on him, the more tantrums, arguments and power struggles I encounter.

No need to "Put the Fear Of God" Into Them
That is definitely NOT GD









.


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
SUre you can. You explain a million and one times exactly what can happen if they get hit by a car. You talk about how big the car is and how heavy it is etc.
You take your child up to parked cars, trucks and minivans of all sizes and show them how the vehicle is so much larger than them that the drivers cannot even see if a child runs in front of them. Have them touch the vehicles, talk about how solid they are and how badly it would hurt if one hit you-even a little bump.
Explain that it is important that they stay close to an adult because adults are much easier for drivers to see etc.

And keep explaining it NICELY. It works...trust me. I take my son out on public transportation all over a large city, and he doesn't even have to hold my hand most of the time. Because he has been empowered and he understands what he needs to do to be safe and why. And I don;t have an "easy" kid...he is VERY stubborn and strong willed (like his mama







) which is why GD is the ONLY thing that works in our home.
The more I try to force things on him, the more tantrums, arguments and power struggles I encounter.

No need to "Put the Fear Of God" Into Them
That is definitely NOT GD









.

This is such a fabulous example of gentle discipline. Thank you for sharing it.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
SUre you can. You explain a million and one times exactly what can happen if they get hit by a car. You talk about how big the car is and how heavy it is etc.
You take your child up to parked cars, trucks and minivans of all sizes and show them how the vehicle is so much larger than them that the drivers cannot even see if a child runs in front of them. Have them touch the vehicles, talk about how solid they are and how badly it would hurt if one hit you-even a little bump.
Explain that it is important that they stay close to an adult because adults are much easier for drivers to see etc.

And keep explaining it NICELY. It works...trust me. I take my son out on public transportation all over a large city, and he doesn't even have to hold my hand most of the time. Because he has been empowered and he understands what he needs to do to be safe and why. And I don;t have an "easy" kid...he is VERY stubborn and strong willed (like his mama







) which is why GD is the ONLY thing that works in our home.
The more I try to force things on him, the more tantrums, arguments and power struggles I encounter.

No need to "Put the Fear Of God" Into Them
That is definitely NOT GD









.

that's a much better explanation than I would give. Thanks!!


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
It works...trust me. I take my son out on public transportation all over a large city, and he doesn't even have to hold my hand most of the time. Because he has been empowered and he understands what he needs to do to be safe and why. And I don;t have an "easy" kid...he is VERY stubborn and strong willed (like his mama







) which is why GD is the ONLY thing that works in our home.
.


I love your post and your example, and I think it is all wonderful except for the "It works...trust me." It is the ideal, and it will work for a great many dc. But there will be some dc who will not understand--or not care. And, while I don't advocate the "fear of god" approach, those parents may have to enforce some "parking lot rules" to keep their kids alive.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
...When we do go back, too, I'll explain expectations ahead of time and ask her for a promise not to climb the wall..

This helps, doesn't it?

I think the idea of simply not going to where the temptations are for now is completely reasonable also.

Using this example, here's what works really great for my dd. First, give her an explanation ("See those people eating over there? It bothers them when kids are climbing on the wall. Plus it's not our wall, and we don't want to damage it. Thank you, sweetie.")

Follow that with a warning ("Oh honey, you know what? We aren't supposed to get up on that wall, remember? If you get up on it again we're going to have to...." go eat inside....take our food and go home....not play at the play area anymore today...etc...) Immediate redirection helps ("Hey, let's go check out the pinball machine!")

Then, if she climbs again, _do what I said I'd do_. Apologetically and with empathy ("Uh oh. We're going to have to leave now because of the climbing. I'm sorry, honey. I want to stay too but remember what we talked about? We just can't climb on someone else's wall. It's their rule.")

Lots of reassurances and comfort and willingness to do other things that are fun ("I'm so bummed we couldn't stay at the pizza place! Hey, do you want to stop at the park on the way home? We can eat our pizza there!") so that she knows she's not bad, nobody's mad, this isn't punishment. It's simply the way it is: if people can't stay off the wall then they can't stay at the pizza place. There are lots of other cool things to do and next time - you know what? She'll make the decision of her own accord to stay off the wall so that she can stay longer. She understands the rules and she knows the choice is all hers.

The biggest challenge and the key to this approach working is the necessity to only say what you mean, and to follow through with what you've said 100% of the time. If you cave and give more chances after you've clearly set out the rules, the whole thing falls apart.

You really have to ask yourself before you speak up whether you're prepared to follow through with what you're telling her. If not, then choose a simpler consequence or else just deal with things another way this time.


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## hippymomma69 (Feb 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
I love your post and your example, and I think it is all wonderful except for the "It works...trust me." It is the ideal, and it will work for a great many dc. But there will be some dc who will not understand--or not care. And, while I don't advocate the "fear of god" approach, those parents may have to enforce some "parking lot rules" to keep their kids alive.









:

That's what I was thinking reading these posts....my DD is verbally delayed and has some impulsivity. There are only 2 times I have EVER gotten really out of control angry/scared. One was her dumpster diving in some medical waste (long story). The other was when she was around 2-2.5. I was major pregnant and she just TOOK OFF across a parking lot (ran OFF the playground and across the parking lot before I could catch her). I was yelling STOP at the top of my lungs and she laughed and kept running. So I hopped up and down yelling stop and she finally stopped long enough (to look at my strange behavior) for me to lunge and catch her. Then I got down in her face and really kind of was LOUD with her (you know, the ole "when I say stop, I mean STOP!" kind of stupid logic). I know I scared her to death. But she now understands that when I say STOP I mean it.

I don't say this because I am proud. I say this because, in this instance, I think I did "put the fear of god" in her...and there was NO WAY she could have understood calm explanations of why it's dangerous. Even at almost 4, that kind of language is beyond her (although she understands the basic phrase "it's not safe"). Because she is low verbal, we just now have a rule - whenever there are cars, she must stop and hold someone's hand to continue. It took several weeks before she understood that there were NO EXCEPTIONS to the hand-holding rule (you know, the wet noodle thing was a favorite of hers). But I was adamant and consistent about the handholding thing (I would simply wait until she was ready to move - and I agreed to walk over and examine things with her - while holding hands) and now it's second nature for her.

I still have to watch her like a hawk if we are on a playground without a gate. She still likes to run off without looking back - especially if she's in familiar territory. But it makes me less crazy to know that when I say "STOP" she will stop.

I don't know if that helps or just confuses things but I wanted to give a real-world example of where the calm explanation approach doesn't really work for some kids....

peace,
robyn


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
I love your post and your example, and I think it is all wonderful except for the "It works...trust me." It is the ideal, and it will work for a great many dc. But there will be some dc who will not understand--or not care. And, while I don't advocate the "fear of god" approach, those parents may have to enforce some "parking lot rules" to keep their kids alive.

But it DOES work. I never said it works for EVERYONE. I just said it works.

Just because a person says that something works doesn't mean they are implying that it would work every other person in the universe. I think that is true about everything...not just parenting.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

OP, I'm coming in late on this post but I think you did the RIGHT thing by not allowing her to go to the Pizza party.

And I would have done the same as you...followed through on a consequence.

Because my DS tends to behave exactly as you described.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hippymomma69* 
I was yelling STOP at the top of my lungs and she laughed and kept running. So I hopped up and down yelling stop and she finally stopped long enough (to look at my strange behavior) for me to lunge and catch her. Then I got down in her face and really kind of was LOUD with her (you know, the ole "when I say stop, I mean STOP!" kind of stupid logic). I know I scared her to death. But she now understands that when I say STOP I mean it.

I don't say this because I am proud. I say this because, in this instance, I think I did "put the fear of god" in her...and there was NO WAY she could have understood calm explanations of why it's dangerous.

<snip> But I was adamant and consistent about the handholding thing (I would simply wait until she was ready to move - and I agreed to walk over and examine things with her - while holding hands) and now it's second nature for her.

I think it's not really the same kind of thing - you were demonstrating your GENUINE fear. I don't think that we should shield kids from that. It's the only thing that actually stopped my very headstrong dd too when she was in the 'dash away into the street' phase. What you didn't do is follow your fear with punishment.

Instead, you taught your daughter a very, very useful rule. Through modeling, repetition and consistency. The fact that she is low verbal and doesn't understand well makes the GD approach here all the more powerful. If a child whose understanding is limited can learn the 'hold hands when cars are around rule' than any child can. My kids both learned it at about 18 months. They both stop at the curb. They both know to hang on to the car in the parking lot. (I tell them to touch the 'square', i.e. the cover to the gas tank.)

But as I said in an earlier response. I don't think that the OPs consequence was out of line. Going to events when your child is overtired is asking for a meltdown, IMO. I would have just phrased it differently.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:

Then, if she climbs again, do what I said I'd do. Apologetically and with empathy ("Uh oh. We're going to have to leave now because of the climbing. I'm sorry, honey. I want to stay too but remember what we talked about? We just can't climb on someone else's wall. It's their rule.")
I agree in theory, but in practice, when this has been a problem, I was there with someone else who was driving us home, or there with a group and/or we hadn't gotten the pizza yet or paid. Sometimes you get trapped by circumstance.

Also, DD is 100% guaranteed to have a positively impressive freak-out when removed in a case like this. (Oh, believe me, I have done it. Many times. But some days I don't have the energy.)


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## warriorprincess (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
SUre you can. You explain a million and one times exactly what can happen if they get hit by a car. You talk about how big the car is and how heavy it is etc.
You take your child up to parked cars, trucks and minivans of all sizes and show them how the vehicle is so much larger than them that the drivers cannot even see if a child runs in front of them. Have them touch the vehicles, talk about how solid they are and how badly it would hurt if one hit you-even a little bump.
Explain that it is important that they stay close to an adult because adults are much easier for drivers to see etc.

And keep explaining it NICELY. It works...trust me. I take my son out on public transportation all over a large city, and he doesn't even have to hold my hand most of the time. Because he has been empowered and he understands what he needs to do to be safe and why. And I don;t have an "easy" kid...he is VERY stubborn and strong willed (like his mama







) which is why GD is the ONLY thing that works in our home.
The more I try to force things on him, the more tantrums, arguments and power struggles I encounter.

No need to "Put the Fear Of God" Into Them
That is definitely NOT GD









.

I use the "Look at Mr Squirrel" approach. I know that offends some of the folks here, but IMO it's the closest you can come to natural consequences without letting your kids get hit by a car.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Or you can run over a watermelon....


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
Or you can run over a watermelon....

I'm not sure if you're serious or not, but either way this idea made me








I would probably try it though if I had a dc who continually tried to run in the parking lot or street.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Somebody here suggested it and I thought it was brilliant!!


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## DaffyDaphne (Aug 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy* 
OP, I'm coming in late on this post but I think you did the RIGHT thing by not allowing her to go to the Pizza party.

And I would have done the same as you...followed through on a consequence.

Because my DS tends to behave exactly as you described.

Neither of my girls or my DSS has ever behaved in that manner (for instance, I've never been hit







: by any of them -- DD#1 bit my finger once when she was about a year old and my response (a loud, shocked, OUCH!) shocked her so much that she never did it again) and I, too, believe that what you did was a logical, natural consequence.

I'm glad your daughter understands.


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## hippymomma69 (Feb 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
I think it's not really the same kind of thing - you were demonstrating your GENUINE fear. I don't think that we should shield kids from that. It's the only thing that actually stopped my very headstrong dd too when she was in the 'dash away into the street' phase. What you didn't do is follow your fear with punishment.

Instead, you taught your daughter a very, very useful rule. Through modeling, repetition and consistency.

Thanks Lynn that actually makes me feel a little better...I've always regretted loosing it so bad with her that time - but I've always felt guilty relief that she now understands Stop. And it never really occurred to me at the time to punish her - mostly because she would never understand it. She would just see it as mommy scaring her or cutting off love and not understand it as a "consequence". I guess there are some blessings for having a child that is low verbal - the whole punishment thing is basically out of the question! Your reframing helps me think of it differently...

peace,
robyn


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## Mammy Julie (Sep 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
SUre you can. You explain a million and one times exactly what can happen if they get hit by a car. You talk about how big the car is and how heavy it is etc.
You take your child up to parked cars, trucks and minivans of all sizes and show them how the vehicle is so much larger than them that the drivers cannot even see if a child runs in front of them. Have them touch the vehicles, talk about how solid they are and how badly it would hurt if one hit you-even a little bump.
Explain that it is important that they stay close to an adult because adults are much easier for drivers to see etc.

And keep explaining it NICELY. It works...trust me. I take my son out on public transportation all over a large city, and he doesn't even have to hold my hand most of the time. Because he has been empowered and he understands what he needs to do to be safe and why. And I don;t have an "easy" kid...he is VERY stubborn and strong willed (like his mama







) which is why GD is the ONLY thing that works in our home.
The more I try to force things on him, the more tantrums, arguments and power struggles I encounter.

No need to "Put the Fear Of God" Into Them
That is definitely NOT GD









.

Thats exactly what works for us too in fact it works so well that ds shouts at the birds to get off the road before they get knocked over. If he ever ran off in a parking lot I would shout 'STOP' usually the tone of my voice (worried but firm) is enough to make him stop in his tracks and then I can bring him back and explain to him why he shouldnt do that. No punishment neccesary.


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## anonymamadaddy (May 28, 2006)

over the top


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