# The male privilege checklist.



## RubyV (Feb 4, 2004)

http://www.expositorymagazine.net/ma..._checklist.htm

Anyone up for a discussion on this?

BTW, I was around Ms. bbs when it first got created.

I think it's good reading for those who are blind to their own priviledge accross the board - color, class, and gender.


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## RubyV (Feb 4, 2004)

Quote:

If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.
Just one of a few of the interesting points made.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

That was absolutely facinating. I disagreed with a couple. But what a thoughtful piece.

Quote:

# If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones.
I wasn't sure about this one. Is it saying basically, "If I have a bad day, week or year, no one will attribute it to my sex"? If so, that is so true.


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## RubyV (Feb 4, 2004)

I think, yes, that's what he is saying.

I love the last point, that privilidge allows him to be blind to his priviledge.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RubyV*
...BTW, I was around Ms. bbs when i...and children should be subservient to me.[/B]


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

This would be a good read for my dh. He is completely unaware of his privilege as a young, white, christian male in our society. It drives me crazy.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

*Magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are much rarer.*

And even then they are likely to still target men--homosexual men.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Monkey's mom (or anyone else), Do you think that is because men are more visual, as they say? Men like to look at naked women or men, as the case may be. I'm not trying to condone the advertising practices just saying that it's natural for men to want to see those images. I, personally, don't find looking at naked men or men dressed in tight, revealing clothing very exciting. Not to say that I don't appreciate seeing a very attractive man. I just don't necessarily want to see him naked. KWIM?


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## RubyV (Feb 4, 2004)

Hmmm, not sure.

What I find interesting is how many things people take for granted, that are actually functions of male priviledge, like walking alone at night, income, etc.

I'm sure many of these tie in to other forms of privilidge as well, but as a WOC, I found the male privilege checklist to hold true.

Pugmama, ditto on the religion. It's amazing the power that entails, isn't it?


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I agree with the religion thing, too. That's one major reason why I will not accept organized religion. To me, it seems so obviously male biased. I hope this statement doesn't offend anyone. Maybe those of you who prescribe to a religion can answer this question for me. I've always wondered how women could believe in something so strongly that puts them in such a subservient role.

Simple things like walking alone at night are totally lost on my dh. I used to have to really get on him about locking our doors at night. I finally asked him if he cared about my and our child's safety. He said that of course he did but could not understand what that had to do with locking the doors.

I remember hearing that the majority of women that are divorced and get custody of the children live in virtual poverty even if they do receive child support and work full time. This included professional women. Yet, still, men grumble, whine and complain about having to pay it.


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## RubyV (Feb 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
I remember hearing that the majority of women that are divorced and get custody of the children live in virtual poverty even if they do receive child support and work full time. This included professional women. Yet, still, men grumble, whine and complain about having to pay it.

I'll try to get the actual figures, but statistics prove that men's standard of living increases, while women and children's decrease.

Also consider: no one critisizes men for not attempting to retain custody, but women who don't are critizized.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Yah, men are more visual than women. But that doesn't excuse the exploitation of women and girls in the visual media. We in Western society have yet to learn how to consistantly portray females respectfully.

They say sex sells. More specifically, women as sexual objects sell.

You guys have been "influencing" me. :LOL Dh and I can no longer discuss politics and gender issues without it breaking out into an argument. These are the only things we find we cannot discuss.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

You're doing better than us, journeymom. Dh and I can't discuss politics, gender issue or religion.

I totally agree with you on the exploitation of women. I heard on the news a while ago that some companies are starting to use real women rather than models in their advertising. They found that women are more likely to buy their products if they see other women like them wearing them or using them.


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## InfoisPower (Nov 21, 2001)

They forgot one, one that bugs the heck outta me.

I as a man will pay less for goods and services than any woman, even though the work involved is not different or excessive in comparison.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Yes, I heard a news report of how that even true at the dry cleaners. A man gets 10 shirts cleaned for a couple bucks while a woman has to pay $5 for each shirt and they both get the same service.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I'm going to send this list to my dh (who happens to have a graduate degree in Womens Studies.







).

A few that weren't on the list:

- Although my hormone levels are always fluctuating, if I'm having a bad day or disagreeing with someone it will never be blamed on what my hormones are doing at the time
- I can ride a bike down the street without being screamed at
- Even if I'm not a virgin, it won't seem strange if I want to marry one
- I can display my abdomen, nipples, thighs and the seat of my underwear in public and not be called a whore
- I can commit an act of violence and the victim (if a woman) will be blamed. Her mental competence will be called into question, as well as her sexual history.
- I can refuse to support any children I may produce, and society will blame their mother instead.
- I can have several children with different partners and my sexual morals will not be looked down upon.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Being a mother is the single highest risk factor for poverty.

You hear all of these stories about how men who are divorced have to pay soooo muuuuch chiiiiild suppooooort whine whine whine and now their "new" families are suffering. That statement is usually followed with a rundown of what the sorry ex-wife drives or some other such nonsense. It is true that the quality of life for a man increases after a divorce and decreases for a woman. My kids are getting ready to rumble in the living room, so I can't find a link right now, but I'll be back.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Can you imagine what people would think if women complained about having to spend money on their kids? And men complain when they have to pay 25% of their check in child support. I spend at least 75% of my money on my children!

Another statistic I read (can't remember where) said that while married men are less likely to commit suicide, married women are more likely to.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I watched a TV show the other day about the fact that the leading cause of death in pregnant woman is murder at the hands of the father of the baby.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Yes, that is true...I have an article about that as well. I volunteer in a domestic violence shelter and nearly all of the residents are pregnant.

Former abusers have told me it's good to keep their wives pregnant because then they are less likely to leave.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Greaseball, that is the saddest, most disheartening thing I've heard today.









Murdered pregnant women, abused pregnant women, oppresed pregnant women. Ick. That's dreadful.

You are a blessing on society.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Ya know what this made me think? Is our society any better than the Taliban or Saddam Hussein? Our society doesn't murder our women in public but it does allow this sort of thing to happen every day.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
Ya know what this made me think? Is our society any better than the Taliban or Saddam Hussein? Our society doesn't murder our women in public but it does allow this sort of thing to happen every day.

With all due respect, MarineWife...

Yes. Yes, our society is *far* better than the Taliban or Saddam Hussein.

Here is proof:

1. Have you driven a car recently? By yourself? Without a male escort?

Under the Taliban regime, you would not have been permitted to do that.

2. Have you had sex outside marriage? Were you stoned to death for this offense?

3. Were you permitted to attend school at all? Did you have to conceal this fact from the authorities?

4. Do you show your face exposed in public?

5. In terms of "allowing" this to happen, what do you think is happening to Scott Peterson? To the Hastings guy? If they are found guilty of the murders of their wives and are consequently punished, that will occur *in accordance with the laws of this country* , not as the action of militant female-directed lynching parties but as a reflection of the fact that in this country, _unlike in many fundamentalist Muslim countries_ , killing your wife is a no-no. Though it happens, we hardly "allow" this to happen.

Okay, I hope I've made my point. There's no question in anyone's mind that women are treated unequally in this society, but truly -- to imply that this society is like the Taliban in terms of its excessive denigration of women is absurd and it diminishes the very real, very serious suffering that women under that regime experienced. This society is by no means perfect in its treatment of women, but even the most minor freedoms you and I and most of us take completely for granted are denied women under fundamentalist Muslim rule.

My advice? Try living in a fundamentalist Muslim country for six months and *then* criticize the U.S. and the freedoms this country and the people in power have given you --
people who include, by the way, both women AND men.

If you have any freedom at all, it is due to both women AND men, and it is not a mere matter of some men in power being forced to comply with women's suffrage. It is a matter of men and women in power consciously enacting laws to minimize (and ideally eliminate) unequal treatment of women under the law. The 19th amendment is why your vote matters in the first place: because *men in power* agreed with the position of the suffragettes.

I am glad to live in this country, personally speaking, and grateful to the men and women who have made this country the kind of place where we can be permitted to have discussions such as this one.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

My goodness. I did not expect such a harsh and angry response. It's all a matter of degree in my mind. Yes, of course, we have more freedoms under the law than women who had to live under the rule of Taliban. I'm talking about a mindset, here. I wouldn't expect a man to understand, either. It may not be a law that I cover my entire body or have a male escort to go out in public, but it sure makes me a lot safer. Without all those things, I am under a great threat of being attacked. And, if I happen to be dressed according to what someone else thinks is provacative, my morals and decency will be attacked as well.

Does it threaten you that women in this country can draw parallels between how we are treated and how women under the Taliban were treated? As a man, I sure hope you do everything in your power to denounce any form of sexism that you come across, whether it be in advertising or with the other guys at the office how may make some seemingly harmless blond woman joke.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

5. In terms of "allowing" this to happen, what do you think is happening to Scott Peterson? To the Hastings guy? If they are found guilty of the murders of their wives and are consequently punished, that will occur in accordance with the laws of this country , not as the action of militant female-directed lynching parties but as a reflection of the fact that in this country, unlike in many fundamentalist Muslim countries , killing your wife is a no-no. Though it happens, we hardly "allow" this to happen.
Yes, these guys will be punished after the fact, but our society is not interested in preventing this kind of crime to begin with. There is no "war on domestic violence" or "war on rape" the way there is a war on drugs or a war on terror.

Although, I'm sure if instead of one in four adult women raped, it was one in four CEOs, one in four U.S. Presidents, one in four any-other-important-male-type, there would be more effort at prevention.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
My goodness. I did not expect such a harsh and angry response.

***It was neither harsh nor was it angry. It was decisive, yes. Outspoken, yes. Harsh? Where? Angry? Where?

Quote:

Does it threaten you that women in this country can draw parallels between how we are treated and how women under the Taliban were treated? As a man, I sure hope you do everything in your power to denounce any form of sexism that you come across, whether it be in advertising or with the other guys at the office how may make some seemingly harmless blond woman joke.
Guess what? Check my other posts, MarineWife. I've got the same equipment as you do and always have. Careful of assumptions, ok?


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
Yes, these guys will be punished after the fact, but our society is not interested in preventing this kind of crime to begin with. There is no "war on domestic violence" or "war on rape" the way there is a war on drugs or a war on terror.

Although, I'm sure if instead of one in four adult women raped, it was one in four CEOs, one in four U.S. Presidents, one in four any-other-important-male-type, there would be more effort at prevention.

Allow me to point out that the United States is one of the few countries around the world where rape within marriage is considered a crime.

Also, allow me to point out that in other countries (like the fundamentalist Muslim ones to which we were referring), rape is considered largely the victim's fault. You could argue that the U.S. suffers from a lingering effect of this kind of thinking, and I'd agree with you, but the concept of "no means no" is well-publicized -- and is indeed part of rape prevention campaigns. Moreover, I would argue very strongly that the notion of "good touch, bad touch," which is taught throughout schools and day cares across the country, is a form of early rape prevention -- one that teaches young women AND young men that they have the right to say "no" and to admit or deny access to their own bodies.

There is no official "war on rape," but given the widespread mockable failure of the "war on drugs" and the life-spending, debt-racking unnecessary imperialism of the "war on terror," are you really sure you want to have the government do a "war on rape"? Sheez, I'd have to go out and buy a Kevlar chastity belt.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

Allow me to point out that the United States is one of the few countries around the world where rape within marriage is considered a crime.
How is a wife supposed to prove she is raped? It's all he-said, she-said, (much like every other rape case
 






) and the law even states that certain situations which would be considered rape between strangers are not considered rape in a marriage, for example, intoxication or being asleep. If you have sex with a sleeping or severely intoxicated person who is not your spouse, it can be considered rape. Not so if it is your spouse.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

I laugh in the face of anyone who thinks that a woman can successfully press charges against her husband for rape. Has it EVER happened? Maybe, I'm sure it has, actually. But let's get real. Most women don't even know that it is a crime for a man to rape his wife. So what? There is a law on the books. Those words protect no one. I've been raped twice and no one was ever charged. Don't talk to me about the laws say, talk to me about what actually happens.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Charles BaudelaireI've got the same equipment as you do and always have. Careful of assumptions said:


> You are absolutely right. I realized this after the fact. I assumed that, by using the name Charles, you were a man. I apologize.
> 
> I guess we disagree about what is considered harsh or angry or aggressive. Your posts seem to me to be all of these. You accused me of things that I did not do nor intend. I was just stating what I thought and felt about a particular situation. I just find it interesting how self-righteous Americans can be when we are not all that far removed from the people we condemn.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
...There's no question in anyone's mind that women are treated unequally in this society, but truly -- to imply that this society is like the Taliban in terms of its excessive denigration of women is absurd and it diminishes the very real, very serious suffering that women under that regime experienced. ..I am glad to live in this country, personally speaking, and grateful to the men and women who have made this country the kind of place where we can be permitted to have discussions such as this one.

Very well said. I find it nearly unbelievable that women who, among other things, were taught how to read/write and who are free to express their political opinions (including voting) feel comfortable comparing themselves to women under a regime like the Taliban. I think it is so belittling and disrespectful of the women, around the globe, who are denied those things everyday.

The United States of America has a long, long way to go in it's treatment of women. But trying to illustrate that point by claiming we have it nearly as bad as girls who are denied a basic education and women who get acid thrown in their face if they dare to appear in public uncovered makes no sense to me. In fact, I think it weakens the arguement in favor of feminism in this country because people realize it's simply not a logical analogy. We have enough ground to cover in this country. We don't need to belittle other women's pain by pretending we can know it.


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## Acksiom (Jun 10, 2004)

A man in the united states of america who kills someone is most likely to kill:

(A) A child
(B) A woman
(C) Another man
(D) None of the above


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

excellent points so far + interesting discussion.

not to take this thread in another direction, but i wanted to say that this really stood out to me ~

_*I am not expected to spend my entire life 20-40 pounds underweight.*_


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## comet (Aug 22, 2002)

This reminds me of when Geraldine Ferraro was on the ticket as veep, and Ronald Reagan who was running as Pres on the GOP, and he said the following, trying to knock her qualifications: "She wouldn't be on the ticket if she werne't a woman"

and Geraldine very quickly replied "Ronald woulnd't be President if he weren't a man".


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
How is a wife supposed to prove she is raped? It's all he-said, she-said, (much like every other rape case







) and the law even states that certain situations which would be considered rape between strangers are not considered rape in a marriage, for example, intoxication or being asleep. If you have sex with a sleeping or severely intoxicated person who is not your spouse, it can be considered rape. Not so if it is your spouse.

It is against the law to commit rape and that includes the rape of one's spouse. ITA that it's difficult to prove rape -- as the Kobe Bryant case is now dealing with -- but certain elements help: defense injuries, signs of struggle or restraint, and specifically, the specific type of tissue damage done to a woman's vagina can tell a great deal. Rape is always hard to prove -- but let me add that it goes a long way even to have it on the books at all that rape is a crime during marriage. Previously, as most of you all know, a woman was considered a man's property in marriage and therefore, you couldn't "rape" her, legally speaking.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
I laugh in the face of anyone who thinks that a woman can successfully press charges against her husband for rape. Has it EVER happened? Maybe, I'm sure it has, actually. But let's get real. Most women don't even know that it is a crime for a man to rape his wife. So what? There is a law on the books. Those words protect no one. I've been raped twice and no one was ever charged. Don't talk to me about the laws say, talk to me about what actually happens.

***Mothra, I am terribly, terribly sorry for what happened to you, but I still cannot help but disagree with your statement, "These words protect no one."

If that law and those words have been responsible for even ONE conviction; if that law and those words have dissuaded even ONE would-be wife-raper from raping his wife, then the law has done at least one good thing and (in my opinion) is more than worthy. I don't know if a woman's ever been successful in proving she's been raped by her husband, but you know what? I bet there have been. I profoundly hope that they have protected at least one woman who would not have been protected otherwise, don't you?


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pugmadmama*
We don't need to belittle other women's pain by pretending we can know it.

Thanks. You said that better than I did -- and far more succinctly.

I dated and am still friends with a man from Istanbul, Turkey, which is (by Middle Eastern standards) a fairly cosmopolitan and secular place to be. Even though he grew up in Istanbul and lived in the U.S., lots of stuff about me that I simply took for granted as my right and privilege (and no big deal) were problematic for him -- things like living by myself, having male friends from high school, working at night, lying down on the floor to watch a movie at a mutual friend's house, and so on. I'm sure that if we'd been in Turkey, I would have had the harsh choice of having to leave him or conform my behavior to the standards of the community -- a relatively sophisticated and Westernized community compared to others. Truly, I can only imagine the oppression that the women under the Taliban suffered -- and much of me is glad that I can *only* imagine it.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Acksiom*
A man in the united states of america who kills someone is most likely to kill:

(A) A child
(B) A woman
(C) Another man
(D) None of the above

Well, what's the answer? Actually, I would tend to lean in favor of answer "C" based on the fact that the men I've known throughout my life who have committed physical battery of another human being have committed that battery on other dudes. For the most part.


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

clearly, women in the us are in a much better position than women in some other places, due to long hard struggles of the women who came before us.

But it's still very very bad, ok??? BAD.

I strongly feel that our society is not seriously committed to ending sexism/male supremacy/patriarchy. I'm glad for laws against rape and so forth, but as log as a rape victim has to question wether seeking help from authorities will just lead to further victimization, we are not doing so well.

Just 'cuz we've got it better than some others doesn't mean we've got it good.

Plus, it occurs to me that there are ways that our western societies contribute to the conditions that encourage fundamentlism in other countries, thus supporting the opprssion of women, children, and gender variant and queer folks.

whooop, pulling myself back from my rant...


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## andi_3k (Oct 22, 2002)

Another one.
My gender will never be used as an insult to the opposite sex.

My pet peeve, men and boys using the "girl words" to insult each other.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

So if one woman is protected, the law is doing its job? I think that is deeply flawed thinking. I know lots of women who have been raped. I don't know a single woman who has successfully put a man behind bars for rape. I know that there are rapists in jail, but I also know that many, many more walk the streets.

Rape is not always like it is in the movies. There are not always defensive marks, bruises, or other physical evidence. Men get good at leaving no marks, and others are good at scaring women into submission. A man holds a knife up to your throat, you aren't going to be moving around trying to defend yourself. Ditto if you are passed out drunk. Or maybe it has happened so many times before, as in the case of marriage, that the woman has no fight left in her.

We have a long, long way to go. We can't get complacent. It is not enough to have these laws on the books. Not by a long shot.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

The fact that one person has suffered more than another does not negate the other's suffering. A parallel might be that if one child is spanked with a hand while another child is beaten with a belt, does that mean that the spanked child's pain is less important? Everyone's feelings need to be respected and validated, whether it's the woman who has acid thrown in her face or the woman who feels unsafe walking to her car at night.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

You know how you see all those "Don't do drugs" commercials? You never see any that say "Don't rape women" or "If a friend of yours might have a problem with raping women, talk to a professioinal. Get him some help."


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Actually, I did see a news report recently about some billboards put up in Virginia. I think it was Arlington. They say something like, "She's a minor. She's too young. Don't go there." It's supposed to be in response to all the stories about grown men having relationships with underage girls.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
So if one woman is protected, the law is doing its job?

We have a long, long way to go. We can't get complacent. It is not enough to have these laws on the books. Not by a long shot.

Whoa, whoa. I didn't say "doing its job." I did say that it would be a worthy law (as opposed to a worthless law) if it protected even one woman.

Think of the alternative. Would you rather that the law didn't exist and the woman be raped?

However, I completely agree with you that we have a long way to go and can't get complacent. TOTALLY agree.


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## Bleu (Mar 6, 2004)

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Greaseball*

You know how you see all those "Don't do drugs" commercials? You never see any that say "Don't rape women" or "If a friend of yours might have a problem with raping women, talk to a professioinal. Get him some help."


Well, there is an e-mail forward that goes along exactly these lines. I'm afraid I don't know who wrote it, so I can't give attribution. I do think it's meant to be in the public domain.

Quote:



PLEASE FORWARD THIS TO EVERY MAN YOU KNOW:

*Fifty Ways Prevent Yourself from Being a Rapist:*

1. Do not think you have the right to rape a woman.

2. Do not rape a woman. Do not rape a man.

3. Learn what rape is.

4. Rape is forcing someone to have sex with you when they do not want to.

5. Most rapes are committed by men who know the women they are raping. If the woman you are forcing to have sex with you happens to be your girlfriend, your neighbor, your cousin, your sister, or your wife, it is still RAPE.

6. When someone says no to you, that means you have no right to force yourself on them.

7. When someone pushes you away, or otherwise inclinates, verbally or with physical movement that they do not want to have sex with you, and you force yourself on them, that is rape.

8. If you see a woman in a parking lot, don't rape her.

9. If you see a woman walking alone at night, don't rape her.

10. If you see a woman in a short skirt, don't rape her.

11. If you see a woman with long hair, don't rape her.

12. If you see a woman walking down a dark street at 4 AM, naked, don't rape her.

13. If you see a woman who is not carrying pepper spray for self protection, does not know karate, does not have a gun, and is not even holding an umbrella to ward you off, still don't rape her.

14. If you see a woman who has a sign on her head that says "I Want Sex", you don't have the right to force sex upon her.

15. If you're at a party, and a girl is drunk, and she wants you to kiss her and touch her but then she wants you stop, STOP.

16. If you're on a date with someone and they want to go so far, but then stop, you STOP. If you don't stop, it is called rape.

17. Rape is a crime, whether you go to prison for it or not, whether it is reported or not, whether you're convicted, or whether anyone believes the woman you rape, or whether you get a goddamn medal of honor for all the rapes you got away with committing, IT'S A CRIME and it's a crime against humanity, which has more to do with your conscience and morals and the rights of women to live as human beings on this planet without having to be in fear their bodies will be violated, than it laws and prison sentences. If you are a rapist, you have violated a person's right to simply live. News Flash - you do not have the right to do that. Neither does any other man or woman you know.

18. Rape is about power. It is not about sex. Do something else with your misogyny than rape a woman. Try, say, reading a book. Or committing suicide to rid you from the planet so we will have one less rapist walking around.

20. Men are the people who can stop rape. Not women. For proof of this fact, look at statistics on rape for a second. It happens every minute of every day, and it is usually not ever reported so statistics on it are always underestimates. Women have been trying to prevent themselves from being raped for a few centuries. IT HASN'T WORKED YET.

21. Rapists destroy lives in a way that murderers do not. If you rape a person, you are as inhumane as a murderer.

22. Before you decide to rape someone, go to visit an emergency room one night, and ask the nurse on duty at the triage, how many raped women have been there that evening. Then ask about the rape kits they did on the women, the DNA evidence they collected. Then spend a few years of your life talking with women who were raped and see how it has affected them every single day of their lives. You might reconsider rape after that, if you're actually human. If you're not human, please kill yourself before you rape someone.

23. Note that you are living in a patriarchal society which is the only reason why committing rape will occur to you as something you have a right to do in the first place. Note that, despite this fact, you STILL DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO RAPE ANYONE EVER.

24. Know that a few million human beings on this planet right now want you dead, if you're a rapist, because we're sick and tired of you walking around, and our self protectoin mechainsms haven't worked, and you're not about to be a real popular guy if anyone finds out you are a rapist, unless, you are hanging around other rapists.

25. Know that whether anyone ever finds out you committed a rape or not, you are still a replusive, weak, pathetic, disgusting, grotesque, inhumane, repulsive, worthless, twisted individual if you rape someone, and this fact will remain true, and you will remain guilty forever, whether she tells anybody or not. And you can be the one to live with that; if you have a conscience.

26. If you don't have a conscience, go murder yourself instead of raping a woman.

27. Read Ms. Magazine instead of Playboy

28. Stay away from pornography. Most rapists love it. That should be a danger sign.

29. Cut your hands off. You won't be able to use them. That will help matters.

30. Cut your penis off. Or ask me to do it for you; I'll be happy to, if you're considering committing a rape.

31. Stay away from women.

32. Stay away from little girls.

33. Stay away from boys.

34. Stay away from the human race.

35. You are not the superior sex, never will be, never were, never are. Women are equal to you, and sometimes women will be smarter than you. This is called life. Deal with it.

36. Sometimes women will not like you. That is our right. See above.

37. Sometimes women will rebuff your advances. In other words, we don't always want to have sex with you. Note, no one has any duty to have sex with anyone, ever. You are no exception.

38. Sometimes women will think you are stupid, will make fun of you, will not treat you well, will fire you from a job, will laugh at you, will refuse to go out with you. Just like men can do these things, so can women. This does not mean you have a right to commit rape.

39. If a woman has sex with you one day and doesn't want to have sex with you the next, that is her right. You do not have the right to rape her.

40. If a woman has sex with you and one hour later does not want to have sex with you again, that is her right. You do not have the right to rape her.

41. If a woman has sex all the time, with lots of men, and you think she is a slut for it, you still don't have the right to rape her. Women have the right to have sex with who they choose, when they choose, wherever they choose if it is consentual. Just like men.

42. No woman has ever, will ever or does ever ASK to be raped. No woman LIKES being raped. No woman INVITES you to rape her. No woman has EVER ASKED FOR IT. Try to remember that.

43. You don't have a right to rape your wife, your daughter, your granddaughter, your best friend, your girlfriend, a girl you met at the grocery store, your boss, your coworker, your student, your professor, your niece, your next door neighbor, a woman you do not know, or ANYONE ELSE. Ever. Period. End of Story.

44. Do not forward around emails to people telling them what women should do to prevent themselves from being raped. Women have never, and will never be able to stop the phenomena of rape, even as women do a good job of trying to, because we are not the ones with penises. Very simple. You are the only person who can prevent you from raping me or any other woman. You. Not me. You. Not any woman. You. You must stop you from being a rapist. It is YOUR job. Take responsibility for it for a change. I'm tired of giving out the 1-800-656-HOPE number to women who have been raped. I WANT TO GIVE OUT A HOTLINE TO YOU. 1-800-STOP IT NOW
But that hotline does not exist.

45. Go build a crisis center to stop yourself and every other man you know from becoming a rapist. Get funding for it, which will require a lot of work on a daily basis. Hire counselors. Hold group therapy and individual therapy sessions. Try, again, to get funding for it because it will be difficult to do so. Women have been doing this for decades. They're called rape crisis centers and we have too many of them. They should not have to exist at all.

46. When you converse with your male friends, be sure to warn them to NOT RAPE ANYONE if they are going out late at night, or if they are going out with a new girl, or if they are doing anything at all where rape might be an issue of concern. Women do this all the time, warning their friends to be careful, warning their daughters, their sisters, their mothers to be careful, to watch out, to lock their doors, to keep their doors locked, to carry pepper spray. We have all sorts of advice we give each other based on our very rational fear of rape. Why don't you try giving every man you now advice on how to prevent rape?

47. If you know someone who is a rapist, do something about it. Do not ignore, tolerate, pretend you don't know or don't care, or congratulate him. DO SOMETHING about it, such as, telling him he is the scum of the earth, reporting him to the police, beating him up, or put up a billboard with his picture, his name and the word Rapist in bright red letters on his front lawn.

48. If you're a rapist, go to therapy for a few years, perhaps the rest of your life, spend some time in a psychiatric hospital, perhaps dozens of times, perhaps years, and try to figure out how to live with yourself and what you did, which is exactly what many women who are raped by people such as you must do.

49. Donate money to RAINN, since you haven't succeeded in stopping rape from happening yet, so we still need these sexual assault centers, and maybe you should try being the person who donates money to them, rather than the people who were raped. www.rainn.org 1-800-656-HOPE. Or donate money to your local sexual assault crisis center. Or donate money to one of the women you know who has been raped so she can go to therapy, because statistically, there is little chance that you do not know several rape "survivors".

50. SEND THIS TO EVERY MAN YOU KNOW. And when you get the next email telling every woman on the planet what to do to prevent herself from being raped, and it says, "forward it to every woman you know", don't do it. For an example, see the message below and consider how ridiculous it is that women should have to live in a world where we write, read, and send each other these kind of messages, and know that it is not fair, and wonder for a minute, why you never got a message like this before addressed to men.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

That is awesome! I'm going to print it out and keep it. Maybe I'll even send it to a few men.


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## andi_3k (Oct 22, 2002)

That makes me sad. I spent years overcomming the effects of sexual abuse as a child followed by a rape as an adult, but that makes me weep. It shatters my heart.
The vast majority of men are not rapists, will never be rapists, do not condone rape and would turn in their friends if they commited such an act.
I am sorry we live in a world were woman are taught to fear, and men are under suspicion. I can not imagine what it must be like for the good, kind,gentle men of this world to know that many women view them as potential rapists, just because they have a penis.
Sexual abuse and rape are devistating, and it will take years to heal from it, for anyone, but viewing all men as potential rapists is not the answer.















JMHO

IF you send that on ask yourself, if that is something you would like your father, brother, husband or adult son to recieve.

*dons flame retardant suit*


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## Bleu (Mar 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *andi_3k*
IF you send that on ask yourself, if that is something you would like your father, brother, husband or adult son to recieve.

Yeah, I think that's kinda the point.

I guess I'd have to disagree with your assertion that the vast majority of men would turn in a rapist. I wish it were true. If it were true, we would not be living in a rape culture. Do you have anything to support that argument?


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## Bleu (Mar 6, 2004)

I do understand, Andi, if you felt that the anti-rape list was harsh, what with the "_kill yourself,_" "_cut your penis off,_" etc. business. I'm inclined to think that those parts of the text weaken the list as a whole. I didn't tamper with the text even though I knew it would be controversial (well, I knew it would be controversial here, since it seems like few posters are feminists).

But I do think that rape survivors have a right to express anger, even violent anger (not _commit_ violent acts -- _express_ violent feelings. Difference!). I don't think men as a class are exactly in any danger -- from women as a class or even from rape survivors as a class. Already we've established in this thread that women as a class _are_ in danger from men.

It's not a diplomatic text. But how tactful (deferential?) are women supposed to BE? Sometimes women are tired of saving face for men when we ask them, tell them, order them, beg them not to rape us.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I agree that the point of that statement is to be harsh. A lot of men do not understand how devestating being raped is. I always here about murder being the ultimate crime. I guess it is in the sens that a life has been ended so there is absolutely no chance of recovery. However, I, personally, think rape is the worst crime. I would want the men in my life to read that post if that's what it takes to get them to understand.


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## the sunshine (Jul 31, 2003)

I've heard many men say they wish a certain woman would rape them, or they think it would be fun to be raped.

so no, many men don't get it.

And as far as I'm concerned, more men should take up the banner of trying to prevent rape.


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## RubyV (Feb 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bleu*
I do understand, Andi, if you felt that the anti-rape list was harsh, what with the "_kill yourself,_" "_cut your penis off,_" etc. business. I'm inclined to think that those parts of the text weaken the list as a whole. I didn't tamper with the text even though I knew it would be controversial (well, I knew it would be controversial here, since it seems like few posters are feminists).

But I do think that rape survivors have a right to express anger, even violent anger (not _commit_ violent acts -- _express_ violent feelings. Difference!). I don't think men as a class are exactly in any danger -- from women as a class or even from rape survivors as a class. Already we've established in this thread that women as a class _are_ in danger from men.

It's not a diplomatic text. But how tactful (deferential?) are women supposed to BE? Sometimes women are tired of saving face for men when we ask them, tell them, order them, beg them not to rape us.


Exactly Bleu.

while women do rape men, as a class men do not spend their lives trying to avoid attacks by women. Men don't take self defense classes. CArry pepper spray. And so on.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

IF you send that on ask yourself, if that is something you would like your father, brother, husband or adult son to recieve.
I will be sending this to my husband.

As for "kill yourself" and "cut off your penis" these are things women often want to do to their rapists. If any of us were raped (and I'm sure many of us have been) wouldn't you wish the guy would just drop dead or his penis would fall off?


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## whateverdidiwants (Jan 2, 2003)

RubyV wrote:

Quote:

while women do rape men, as a class men do not spend their lives trying to avoid attacks by women. Men don't take self defense classes. CArry pepper spray. And so on.
What's that line from _Cunt_? "A man could, conceivably, during his lunch break rape a woman. That woman will spend the rest of her life dealing with it. So will her daughters. So will theirs. The balance of power is unacceptable." (or something close to that)


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Yep, that's where it's from.

Men are also raped by men, but they still don't worry about it as much. My dh picks up hitchhikers. I haven't yet, though I would pick up a female hitchhiker if she was dressed in such a way that made it obvious she did not have a gun. Men might worry about being robbed, but I don't hear them talking about how they don't walk in such-and-such place because they might get raped.








T
Does anyone know some statistic for how often men in prison are raped? I know a whole lot of men who have been in prison (from my past line of work, and because I go to NA meetings) and very few of them were raped - at least very few admitted to it.


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

This morning I read the comics in the newspaper and the strip "Curtis" has a scenario where curtis' girlffriend is trying to sexually harrass him (like, ooh, hey baby you look hot, stuff like that) so he can see what it's like, and the end of it is him saying how great it is and that men would love it if women did that.

Infuriating because what SO MANY men do not get is that when a man whistles at a woman on the street, there is an IMMENSE threat behind it!!! When I get talked at on the street (which happens a lot less since I got older and bigger), it scares me. I am afraid to respond like I want to (you know, like saying"go f*** yourself!) because of the implied violence.

Grrrrrr maybe I should write that comic artist a letter....


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

When I get whistled at on the street, to me it feels like the man is just putting it out there that he can rape me if he decides to; that my safety depends on what he feels like doing at the moment.

If I did the same thing to a man, I don't think the level of threat would exist for him. He would probably just be surprised, and it might boost his ego a little bit.

Not to say that all men welcome sexual harrassment from women - I know it can be devastating for them too, but on average a man is not likely to feel fear when a woman starts coming on to him.


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## andi_3k (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:

If any of us were raped (and I'm sure many of us have been) wouldn't you wish the guy would just drop dead or his penis would fall off?

Re- read my post I was raped. I spent 6 years of my childhood, being molested, and yes that included sexual intercourse, byt 4 male relatives, the first time I was 2 weeks shy of my 11th birthday, the last time I was 16...next time he tried I picked him up under his armpits and slammed him into the wall. I got myself into therapy to get over teh trauma from, mychildhood ( not only the sexual abuse, but emotional abuse by my family and the effects of some serious medical issues) and got raped on my 2nd appointment by my therapist. I know well the feels that go along with the rapes, and the recovery.

I can not, though, live my life hating men, thinking every male I meet is going to try to rape me, or my neices, nor do I think most men codone such actions. I do not teach my neices to be afraid, nor do their parents, if the girls join the kung-fu studio that several of my brothers run, it is not because we or they, view each male they come across as a potential rapist, but because what we do there is fun, exciting and part of the world they have grown up in.
Is there work to be done in ending violence against women? Surely! I don't think tho' that alienating men is the way to do that. I can't see that email doing anything but alienating the men who recieve it. Making them feel that they are under suspicion, that even their friends and loved one view them as threats, is not going to build bridges, is not going to foster understanding.
I prefer to work with folks like the white ribbon capaign tehy are a men's group trying to erradicate violence against women....not only physical violence, but emotional abuse also and even trying to make people aware of how language marginalize women. So how I think men will listen to someone saying "hey this is just not right" than they will to someone saying "everyman is a threat"
I'd kind of like to send that email to the white ribbon campaign and see what they think of it.
To me there is a grave difference in feeling like I want my abusers to drop dead or their penis to fall off and wanting random men to cut off their hands or genitalia, one is dircted at the people who actually abused me, the other directs it at anyone who shares their gender.
There are many ways to make men aware of rape, it's affects and the need for their involvement to end it. Many men are trying to take responsibility for making rape, and violence against women a thing of the past. The white ribbon campaign is one organization that does this, it is vocal, international and run by and for men.
I may print that out and place it in my journal, so that I may respond to it point by point. But I can not,in good conscience, send that to every many I know...it would distroy bridges I have spent decades building. Yes, I do discuss rape with them, I even discuss my rape with them but I hope I do so in a way that does not make them feel that just because they have a penis they are the "enemy".
I dunno, maybe it's my training as a Buddhist Monk, maybe it's because I have to deal with my abusers on a regualr basis ( one is dead, I was pallbarer for him, but the other three are very much alive and since they are family I see them often), but I ***Need*** to include men in my recovery. To to that I have to build bridges, and I have to do it my way.
Some one asked how defferential we have to be, well, I think everyone has their own comfort level in that and I think there is room for all.
The above email made me weep, I am well aware that for some it will resonate, but my course of action before I forward **any** email is to ask how it will affect my target audiance. If I think it will build bridges, I will send it, if I thinkit will have a high "awwwww-fator" I will send it. I rarely, if ever, send something that I think will build more walls than bridges. That is just me.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

I can not, though, live my life hating men, thinking every male I meet is going to try to rape me, or my neices, nor do I think most men codone such actions.
Most men, when asked, will insist they are not rapists and that they do not believe rape is a right. But men often have a different definition of rape than women do. Men often do not consider it rape if they have sex with a drunk girl who is coming onto them, even though the law considers that rape. Or if they have sex with someone who is mentally retarded. Or they will think if someone has consented to vaginal intercourse, they have the right to demand oral or anal sex as well.

I think no one has any business telling a survivor how to deal with her experience. Some need to include men in their recovery. Some need to alienate and resent men. Either way is fine, and what works for one woman won't work for everyone.


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## Bleu (Mar 6, 2004)

Andi, I read your post fine the first time. Sorry I didn't acknowledge your history; it wasn't really germane to the point I was making, so I said nothing about it in my previous post.

I sincerely commend your involvement with the men's anti-violence organization, though I am a little bit puzzled about what your role is in it (unless you are a man?). I really do believe that unless men stop rape, rape will continue -- so seeing men take responsibility for it is a ray of hope. Kudos to you for being part of it.

Unfortunately, I cannot agree that "_Many men are trying to take responsibility for making rape, and violence against women a thing of the past._" I wish that were true, but I believe that only a fraction of a percent of the general male population is trying to take responsibility for male sexual violenece. I hope that someday it will be true. I wonder if maybe it seems so to you, because you immersed in such a progressive organization, that such work is more common that it really is?


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

just want to point out that the email in question says "If you are a rapist" for the "kill yourself" etc points.

I know that men tend to be extremely defensive and many would respond to this email as though it were saying all men are (potential) rapists, but I really do not read it that way. I read it as being generally directed to all men, and then the "if you are a rapist then do this" points, well, they are directed toward rapists.

Personally, i think that if the men who get so upset by things like this would put their energy into fighting rape instead of reacting as though it's a personal accusation, we'd get a lot farther.

unfortunately, in my experience, which inlcudes emotional work with men who are delving deep to fight the inner rapist/patriarch/sexist pig, most men have done something in their lives about which they feel defensive. that is, many men while they may not have raped someone, they have harrassed someone, or they have pressured someone into sex, etc. for instance, I cannot say for sure that I have been raped, and yet there are a lot of experiences in my past that are in the gray area. Very gray. Perhaps some of the men involved in those situations have since become more enlightened and now know they have something bad in their past; are they now defensive or are they honest and trying to make amends? So, I think men are so defensive because they have things to hide, things to be defensive about.

any man who is thouroughly opposed to rape and the conditions within which it thrives will understand that the email is not about them. But the mass denial by men who aren't rapists themselves that this is AN EPIDEMIC does a lot to keeping things as they are, which is, a society in which every woman has to think about rape, about being raped, on a regular basis, either as somethig they ahve survived, or something they may face.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

OK, here's another item for the privilege checklist:

Although people of my gender know next to nothing about women's bodies, pregnancy or birth; we get to control nearly every aspect of women's health and dictate to them how they will give birth!


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## andi_3k (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:

I sincerely commend your involvement with the men's anti-violence organization, though I am a little bit puzzled about what your role is in it (unless you are a man?).
THe 11 year old boy I am raising asked to be able to do something after hearing about a seriel rapist in our area. We researched someways to get involved, and He decided on "White ribbon". Because he is so young we contacted the local chapter and were told he needed an adult involved, since dad can not because of work hours, I go with him for his activities. He has done presentations to his classes at school, the boy scouts and the boys/girls clubs. He has expressed since he was 7 that "hitting girls is wrong" and he will not stand by and let it happen. If he can't solve it himself he will go for an adult who will.
I can't account for why my experiance is so different that what you folks are seeing, but I can only speak to what I see, maybe because I am involved with men who are trying to end it, maybe because most of the men I know are very aware of how my history has affected me, I don't know, but I do know that most of the men I know and associate with are well aware of what rape is, that having sex with a drunk person is rape and don't tolerate the locker room "humour" that jokes about rape, or other forms of violence against women. I also know that i f they saw a rape in progress they would stop it, and make sure the woman was safe. I know men who have turned in rapists, I know men who have risked their lives to keep a woman from being raped. Maybe it's because of my involvement with the organizations I am in, maybe it's because so many men in this area where horrifed by the aforementioned seriel rapist, maybe I am just lucky.

To answer Greaseball's latest post: It infuriates me to no end, that men get to decide, what I can do with my body. I tried to get sterilized awhile back....and the dr refused, "because you're too young, you might change your mind someday" I was 38 at the time.
I don't think that in a relationship that a woman should not listen to a man views on what should be done interms of BC or abortion, but the ultimate descision should rest with her.
I have issue, and really big issues, with any religion telling women that they can not have abortions or use birth control and I think that if men don't want to become father, they need to take responsibility for their own birth control. I have little sympathy for men who get theri gf/wives/overnight stands pregnant and then whine about how she, tricked him or whatever.
As faras how women give birth, it infuriates me to think that anyone, male or female, would tell an expectant mother how to give birth! Unless there is a known and lifethreatening problem leave it up to the mom. I would hope that Dad gets to say what he would be comfortable with, but that is up to each couple. Why do folks who are not invovled think they should be sticking their noses into something this intimate anyhow. sigh.


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
When I get whistled at on the street, to me it feels like the man is just putting it out there that he can rape me if he decides to; that my safety depends on what he feels like doing at the moment.

Totally true, Greaseball! I've spent years trying to articulate to DH *why* it enrages me that I can't even walk to the corner store without getting whistled at (he completely accepts the validity of my feeling that way, he just didn't grasp the underlying reasons, yk?) And what you said sums it up in one sentence.

When a woman whistles or hollers at a man;
When a woman walks behind a man on a dark street;
When a group of women watch a single man go by;
When a woman comes on aggressively to a man;
When a woman loses her temper at a man;
Even when a woman throws a punch at a man;

The context surrounding it is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

If I recall correctly, it's Gavin de Becker who says that generally, men fear that women will laugh at them; women fear that men will kill them.

What does it say about our society when the shared fears of women relate to basic survival and personal safety and those of men relate to status?








for all the excellent posts in this discussion already!


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