# A discussion on night waking....



## Anny (Apr 7, 2007)

Lets talk about frequent night waking.....

I am a co-sleeper with my 13 month old DD, and she is and always has been demand BF. This is NOT meant to be a rant at co-sleeping or anything negative like that, I am just genuinely curious about this and would love to hear everyone else's comments and thoughts about the seemingly very common night waking in our babies

It seems to me that the babies who co-sleep and breastfeed, wake more often and untill a much later age than babies who sleep alone and are weaned or on formula. Those babies seem to sleep soundly through the night, with little or no waking at all.

There are 'experts' (and I use that term lightly!) out there who seem to think that frequent night waking is detrimental to babies well being, that they are more prone to injury and don't develop quite as well as babies who sleep all night. On the other hand, all the breastfeeding support people I have spoken to or read about believe that it is normal and perfectly fine for a baby to frequently wake to nurse, and no harm is done as long as the mother is happy with that arrangement. As far as I know, the age of the baby doesn't seem to really factor into it, night waking up to any age is fine.

I sometimes feel that I have done 'wrong' by my daughter by nursing her through the night on demand, because she wakes every 2 hours to nurse at the moment (and we are in a good patch right now!) It's been a lot worse at different times. She seems to be unable to go back to sleep by herself, and I just don't know if that is a problem or not. She is never very happy to be awake, but is then soo happy to find a boobie available! lol

Does anyone know if there are any studies or factual information about this topic?? I am not going to change anything here, we are pretty happy with things really. I mean, I'd LOVE her to sleep soundly and contentedly all night long, but it's just not happening here at the moment, so we are just going with her flow.

It's just that I seem to read about so many of us with the same problem, and we all discuss solutions etc (which is so fantastic!) but i don't think I have ever read any opinions on whether it is actually ok or not!

I hope I am making sense and that no-one takes this the wrong way, it's just real curiosity on my part.
Eager to hear everyones thoughts....


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## bottomsup (Jul 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anny* 
Lets talk about frequent night waking.....

I am a co-sleeper with my 13 month old DD, and she is and always has been demand BF. This is NOT meant to be a rant at co-sleeping or anything negative like that, I am just genuinely curious about this and would love to hear everyone else's comments and thoughts about the seemingly very common night waking in our babies

It seems to me that the babies who co-sleep and breastfeed, wake more often and untill a much later age than babies who sleep alone and are weaned or on formula. Those babies seem to sleep soundly through the night, with little or no waking at all.
*I do think that co-sleeping, nursing babies tend to wake more. But if it makes you feel better, I think a lot has to do with temperament, as well. If you go to a certain site's sleep boards, there are pages and pages of moms wondering why their babies, who have no "sleep crutches," still aren't sleeping through the night. My very good friend nurses all night long still, every two hours, and her 11 month old is in a crib now.*
There are 'experts' (and I use that term lightly!) out there who seem to think that frequent night waking is detrimental to babies well being, that they are more prone to injury and don't develop quite as well as babies who sleep all night. On the other hand, all the breastfeeding support people I have spoken to or read about believe that it is normal and perfectly fine for a baby to frequently wake to nurse, and no harm is done as long as the mother is happy with that arrangement. As far as I know, the age of the baby doesn't seem to really factor into it, night waking up to any age is fine.

*This is tricky. I think night nursing babies, who barely rouse as they latch on, tend to be as well rested as babies who "sleep through the night." This is because those babies who STTN are waking, too, they just do not need help going back to sleep. I do notice, however, on the nights my 11 month old wakes up more and stays up longer, he is a total spaz at the next day. Not good.

I think the "sleep trainers" have put the need for sleep above all other needs, which is wrong. On the other hand, you can go the other way, and not prioritize sleep at all. I honestly do not see any reason why a 1 year old baby needs to wake up 4 times a night or more on a regular basis. Is it abnormal? No. But I do not feel it is necessary, and I think you can get past that without harsh sleep training.*

I sometimes feel that I have done 'wrong' by my daughter by nursing her through the night on demand, because she wakes every 2 hours to nurse at the moment (and we are in a good patch right now!) It's been a lot worse at different times. She seems to be unable to go back to sleep by herself, and I just don't know if that is a problem or not. She is never very happy to be awake, but is then soo happy to find a boobie available! lol

*I don't think you have done anything wrong, because in the long run, your baby will be able to put herself to sleep. There are ways to help her along now if you need to, but I honestly do not believe you or any of us, are setting our babies up for future sleep failure. The key here, though, is you have to be willing to stick it out for the long term--until three years or so for some babies. If I were a baby, I would be happy to find a boobie available at my convenience, too! I am, however, now working on ways to get my guy to fall asleep without the boob, because it is a disservice to him and my husband. My husband is home with the guy two days a week, and F will not nap for him, and everybody is then miserable!*

Does anyone know if there are any studies or factual information about this topic?? I am not going to change anything here, we are pretty happy with things really. I mean, I'd LOVE her to sleep soundly and contentedly all night long, but it's just not happening here at the moment, so we are just going with her flow.
*Attitude makes a major difference. Being able to go with the flow and adjust your expectations makes life so much easier! What exactly do you mean by studies, I mean, for what exactly? Early morning, my brain is muddled!*

It's just that I seem to read about so many of us with the same problem, and we all discuss solutions etc (which is so fantastic!) but i don't think I have ever read any opinions on whether it is actually ok or not!

*I do not see why it wouldn't be ok. There is no reason to be a martyr to your baby's sleep habits for years on end. After a certain age, and without crying, I see no problem with helping your baby sleep longer stretches or learn to fall asleep on his own. I see this in the same light as potty learning and other transitions. Sure, baby may be happier not having to learn to pee in the toilet, but in the end, everybody, including baby, is happy to be done with the dipes!







We just need to know when OUR babies are really ready for the change. And honestly, when we are, too. I think many of the problems with older babies/toddler here, well, I think a lot of the time it is mom and dad unwilling to do the work to make the change. Obviously, in this forum, CIO is not an option (shouldn't be anywhere else, either, but that is another story). But sometimes, I think some parents are so afraid of upsetting babe in any way, that they are stalled in patterns that make them unhappy and resentful.*

I hope I am making sense and that no-one takes this the wrong way, it's just real curiosity on my part.
Eager to hear everyones thoughts....

*I understand where you are coming from!

Meg*


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## Meg_s (Apr 13, 2006)

This is only anectdotal.. sorry!
Of everyone who I have experienced closely that also has babies/small children, my kids are the most "developed." It could just be genetics! I'm also the only one who cosleeps and nurses past a few mos, the kids are huge, and way ahead in all things physical, they're only a little behind with language, if that, but they're fully bilingual and I'\ve read over and over that bilinguals are a little behind since they're learning twice as many. My kids are the worst wakers I've ever heard of, they're among the worst ever posted about here on these forums.. but they're very co ordinated and intelligent. The only health concern is for poor me.

Oh, I see nothing wrong with helping the baby to sleep better either. I taught my first toddler to fall asleep "on his own" with much work and it has only been a good thing for all of us...He's not neglected. We have a family wind down before bed, then snuggles and books, then I tuck him in and tell him I'm going to the kitchen to clean up and I'll be right back to come and give him a kiss (kitchen is the only place he'll accept lol) and I come right back. The absences are extended and he eventually falls asleep. Sometimes he will immediately, other times it's 30 mins of visits and snuggles but the key is that I'm not stuck in there with him for the entire evening. I can't be, I have another kid to get to bed and a house to tidy after they're asleep. The 2nd isn't old enough yet, but once he's past this teething phase there will be no milk for certain hours at night, and then when he's old enough too he'll learn how to fall asleep without needing to nurse or have me hold him. It's a gentle process and I am looking forward to it... I know most people here are happy to nurse their toddlers to sleep and all night long but I'm not.


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## _betsy_ (Jun 29, 2004)

My DD has always been a rather cruddy sleeper, and we've never been able to co sleep with her. When we've tried co sleeping, which we were open to from the beginning, no one got any sleep.

She srill nursed at least every 3 hours around the clock until very recently. Suddenly, at 18 months, she's beginning to sleep much longer stretches. Nothing has changed.


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## lynx0333 (Dec 8, 2007)

Well I am a co-sleeper of a 7 month old wiggly, kicking, nursing boy so I don't have any answers. But I am up for a discussion.

I agree that there seems to be a correlation between breastfeeding, co sleeping and not sleeping. All of my formula feeding friends have kids who sleep through the night ect. But I think it might be differences in attitude. I know some people can not breastfeed for real reasons, but I still think some of it comes down to philosophy.

If you are co-sleeping and breast feeding it seems like less of an inconviance to feed in the middle of the night so I think you are less likely to do sleep training stuff, at least for awhile. I think culturally it can be hard to be a breastfeeding, co-sleeping momma surrounded by people who think babies sleep through the night at 4 months and are eating solids at 6 months. Because often the advice you get if you have any problem is to try feeding formula... then the baby will sleep. which is just wrong on so many levels and is not really an answer.

Does it feel like you are doing a disservice to your child at times. Oh yeah! cause 'everyone else is sleeping through the night' but by first grade i think all kids are at the same place. What I find unfortunate is that most sleep advice wants to throw the baby out with the bath water. we co-sleep, i am happy with it. i wish i could improve a few things, but the advice is all focused on a very specific sleep goal that does not include co-sleeping.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

A HUGE difference is that if they are in another room, parents claim (and may truly think) that they don't wake at all. Most of the time, that's simply not true. But when they are next to you- you KNOW.

I'd rather know, thanks.

-Angela


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## elyag (Mar 2, 2006)

The way I look at it for my family and I is this: Out of all of my friends' kids/babies, my DD is the most sweetest, most well behaved one out of the whole bunch. She loves to hug and kiss, is a very compassionate little girl, and very well behaved. For the most part she does what I ask and rarely throws temper fits and when she does they are over in about 5 seconds after she gets a big hug from someone. Developmentally, she's ahead in everything. Everyone is always commenting on how well-behaved and how curious and inquisitive she is and how they all wish their kids could be more like her. The only difference between all the kids is that all of them sleep trained their kids, formula fed them, etc, etc. I'd like to think for the most part my DD is the way she is because of how she is treated and how she is respected. She is treated in a compassionate way and she acts that way. I know personality (meaning nature over nurture) does play a part in it as well but I don't think she would be the person she is if we didn't co-sleep and breastfeed this long.

They all think I'm crazy for extended breastfeeding, cosleeping, etc. And yes while I sometimes complain how she wakes up at night ALOT, they're always complaining how misbehaved their kids are, how they don't listen, it goes on and on.

I will take my one lack of sleep complaint over their list of behavioral, developmental complaints they have. And I try to remember this when my DD has her bad waking every hour nights (like last night). What I can't figure out is why my friends haven't figured all this out yet and changed their ways.


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## riomidwife (Sep 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lynx0333* 

Does it feel like you are doing a disservice to your child at times. Oh yeah! cause 'everyone else is sleeping through the night'.

for me it's not so much a matter of social pressures, or everyone else's kid sleeping through the night (i know they're not), but lately i DO feel like i may be doing ds a disservice, or, at the very least, enabling his overtiredness by facilitating the boob time every 60-120 minutes all night long...

i KNOW he's overtired in the day. this is not good. and daytime sleeping is no more productive. i'm lucky if he'll go 45 minutes, and he almost always wakes up fussy and tired. according to some (NCSS), overtiredness and poor night time and daytime sleep are all connected. so where does that leave us with co-sleeping? cranky and NOT sleeping







. i'm eager to hear more......


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## Anny (Apr 7, 2007)

This is good ! I am enjoying all the comments ladies, it's just what I wanted to hear - I love it that we all have different takes on the same topic, any yet we all have the same beliefs at heart.

I love the thinking that sleep learning can be viewed the same as potty learning, thats very clever and I have never thought of it like that. Of course, it makes such sense, it is a skill to be learned just like everything else isn't it ?!

Also, you're right elyag, i get the same comments about my DD, that she is so calm and content, such a sweet baby while their baby is whingey and cranky - hmmm wonder if it's the constant contact and boobie availability that has anything to do with it ! She makes my days so blissfull, by being such a sweetie, that the *ahem* difficult nights are easier to bear!

This is a great conversation !







:


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## Rumba (Dec 3, 2007)

I have read references to research that acknowledges that breastfeeding co-sleepers wake more often in the night. It sure seems to be the case in the families I know. I think anyone deciding how to nighttime parent should be fully aware of this before they make their decisions. I wasn't clear on it and if I knew that unrestricted night nursing was going to result in a baby who would wake 6-10 times per night from 4-11 mos old, I might have reconsidered.

AP stuff says it's fine and normal but I'm starting to feel differently. I don't think it's good for my baby to have such disturbed sleep. She's rolling around at night fussing and crying because she can't get to sleep (the boob magic is wearing off a bit) and she wakes up tired in the morning. I'm exhausted and that's not good for anyone.

Last week I made a decision to change her sleep associations and to begin night weaning. It's been a gentle process and I've been there with her through all of it but there has been some crying and fussing on her part. But then again, there's crying and fussing anyway with a baby that can't fall asleep without intensive parenting techniques (nurse, swaddle, pat, sing, bounce).

Anyway, after doing things a little differently with the goal of teaching her to fall asleep with less intervention and less night nursing, she slept for 7 hours straight last night! This is a baby who usually wakes every 30 min to 2 hours. And this was after only 5 nights.

I really think the AP literature and it's leaders would do a great service by re-evaluating the advice that co-sleeping and night nursing are all you need for good nights. That is true for some but for so many of us, we end up exhausted and our babies are too. This is really my only criticism of the prevailing AP methods and philosophies but it is a criticism.


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## Meg_s (Apr 13, 2006)

Rumba I think you have a great point. While there is nothing wrong with nursing to sleep/cosleeping, some babies might need help with their sleep associations if they're "needing" to nurse every 10 to 30 minutes all night long.


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

i think that, like with everything, it depends on the baby (and mama) how nightwaking affects them. i DO think that NO ONE, babe or non-babe, needs 10-12 hours of truly uninterrupted sleep. so the whole weissbluth idea of consolidated sleep, to that extent, is ABSURD (and i've had multiple parents tell me their child needs that much sleep, and so CIO is for their own health, so people really believe this







). in many cultures and times, it's accepted that adults sleep in fits and starts and not "through the night" at all themselves. in ours, we think this is how "healthy" sleep looks.

so i think it's partly cultural. if you THINK your child needs x number of consecutive hours of sleep, or you think you do, then whenever your child is fussy or you are fussy, you think it's because you're falling short of the magic number, when really it could be something else entirely.

that said, i DO think individuals have various needs for consecutive sleep hours. some do okay on constantly interrupted sleep (my DH, for example, who doesn't remember being awoken anyway, and always feels rested). i don't do _as_ well, but i do okay as long as i'm not consistently awoken more than every 2 hours--as long as i can fall back asleep quickly. i bet some people need a 4-5 hour consecutive stretch to feel okay, but for me, that is great--but not necessary. lately i've been getting a 4-5 hour stretch about once or twice a week, 2-3 the rest of the time usually, and i am doing GREAT!

i think for DD it really doesn't matter how often she wakes as long as she is falling right back to sleep. that just seems to be her way. the only time i notice her seeming overtired is when she's sick, teething, or developmentally spurting and she's waking LOTS and sleeping very fitfully in between nursings.

as long as she is waking and just nursing and falling back to sleep, she can wake hourly with no seeming ill effects on her (for me, this is not so okay














.

basically, i think nightwaking is normal and healthy to a large degree, but the absolute amount that is tolerated by either mother or baby (or dad, if dad is sleeping with them and affected by it) is going to determine what the family needs to do. if i felt that, on the whole, i could not cope with the amount of sleep i was getting, i would try something like NCSS, but even though we have bad nights and bad spells, overall i am okay









i also think that, since nightwaking in babies is biologically normal, it wouldn't make a lot of evolutionary sense for it to be _largely_ harmful to either mother's or child's health. if it were, we shouldn't still be doing it.


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## mrsdocmartin (Nov 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
A HUGE difference is that if they are in another room, parents claim (and may truly think) that they don't wake at all. Most of the time, that's simply not true. But when they are next to you- you KNOW.

I'd rather know, thanks.

-Angela

This makes me feel better! DS is up every 2 hours too, and I just keep telling myself that I'd better suck up every beautiful (even if it is sleepy!) second that I have with him as a baby. It won't be long before I can't sleep because he's out too late with a girl.


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## starsrmndmeofyou (Mar 1, 2008)

i havent got a chance to read other moms replies but jsut quickly, my dd is BFd and Cosleeps and she has slept through the night since she was born . i had to wake her for feedings - but we have a clear difference between night in day in our house, i dont know if you do or not, or if its just her temperament!


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## Devaya (Sep 23, 2007)

I have really enjoyed reading this discussion... I have felt frustrated with for e.g. Dr Sears' books 'advice that simply babywearing, co-sleeping and b.feeding on demand in the day leads to better nights....i've done and am doing all of the above and still my baby wakes every 1-2 hours, and often doesnt settle well for 1-2 hours a night which is when i really feel broken!

i have to say that i think a lot of moms on these forums, IMO, deserve some kind of medal for being so strong in the face of nightwaking that goes on for YEARS...i want to know, how do you deal with work where you have to use your brain, be organised etc (and that includes, obviously, WAH, but particularly WOH as then you are answerable to employers who expect certain standards....) I'm not even quite at the 6 month mark and i already have many nights/mornings where i think i cant take much more of this. Its not that i feel so exhausted all day, (the real tiredness hits mainly when i'm awoken, in the morning and by eight pm i am finished)... it's that I find my cognitive functioning severely (and progressively) more impaired, (Resulting in losing things constantly, losing the thread of what i'm doing/saying, etc), which is annoying in terms of day to day tasks but really worries me when it comes to having to go back to work (even only part time) in 3 months time, should things not have improved by then.

also, I agree that people have varying 'thresholds' for sleep deprivation but i am constantly up against my partner's insistence that sleep deprivation is used as a form of torture







and has the effect of breaking you down. anyone know if there is any evidence of this or is it just anecdotal?


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## Bailey (Sep 23, 2005)

My 12mth old still wakes several times a night - sometimes more than others. For some reason it doesn't bother me as much as when my first did it. Perhaps I've accepted the fact that sleeping with my baby will not lead to less night waking but it will *in general*lead to a more restful night for me. We often go to bed early and I'll rest and read after she's asleep. It works for us. I don't know of any scientific studies but I must admit to being a bit sketical of some of the western sleep studies out there. Many of our ancestors slept with their babies as a necessity and the human race has survived so far.


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## lynx0333 (Dec 8, 2007)

So my son wakes up every 2-3 hours when its a good night and every 45 min to hour and a half when its bad ... lately it's been every hour. He nurses for about a few min and is back to sleep. Clearly he is not hungry this is comfort this is how he knows how to get back to sleep. He is fine with it. I am not worried about him.... I am tired of it. not so tired as to give up on night nursing and co-sleeping completly... but looking for a reduction in it. Looking for a way to change his going to sleep association? so for those who posted and did change it... what did you do specifically.

back to the discussion, i notice when he's waking to nurse he is barely awake... and he does just as good with lots of naps through the day as looong nights... as long as we respect when he is tired and listen. babies like adults are adaptable.


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## Joshuasmom16 (Oct 20, 2007)

I def. agree that co-sleeping causes more frequent waking. The closer DS is to me, the more often he starts wiggling to get on boob. On a good night, we go through this several times a night without either of us really waking up, and I wake up thinking co-sleeping is great. On not so good nights, I wake up hating co-sleeping and wanting to change, like today. Last night he was up every 30 minutes, getting his arms out of the swaddle and kicking around waking us all up. We have to swaddle b/c of eczema and him scratching (another issue), so the frequency of it all was just too much. I believe in the long run, this will pay off, I have to believe that anyway!~! It's nice to hear other stories too and would be really interested to see if there was a way to transition DS (6 mo) to his crib eventually...


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## jessweetj (Jan 26, 2008)

Interesting.. I've found the exact opposite to be true in our household.

Both of my DD's sleep really well in our bed, but wake frequently when they're not in our bed. Perhaps I've just been blessed with good sleepers but my youngest that I'm breastfeeding at the moment only wakes up once durnig the night, sometimes she'll wake up twice but not normally. My first daugther was like this too and by about 6 months she started sleeping through the night (in our bed.) We just recently moved her to a toddler bed (she's 2 now) because she flails and kicks and I'm afraid she's going to kick the baby. She wakes up multiple times during the night and eventually ends up in our bed now to get a good nights sleep.


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## Danielle13 (Oct 31, 2007)

my dd is waking every 30 min currently. I always feel dumb because my friends babies are STTN but were left to CIO and were electivly formula fed. I may be tired, and my baby may not be STTN but atleast she's not left to scream and be sad and lonely, longing for her mommy. And atleast she's not filled up on fake BM full of fillers to keep her full longer. Atleast she's not alone in a scary room with no one that she knows. It sucks right now, I'm exhausted. Her waking is extreme, but I am aware that she will be waking for a while at least 3x a night and that is ok with me since I am raising my child the way nature intended. And I don't have to justify my parenting to make myself feel better because I KNOW I am making the right choice, its hard and its sacrafice but that is what being a mom is.

However, I also was not aware that she'd be waking so often when I decided to go AP.


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## indigo_sue (Jan 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Danielle13* 
that is ok with me since I am raising my child the way nature intended. And I don't have to justify my parenting to make myself feel better because I KNOW I am making the right choice, its hard and its sacrafice but that is what being a mom is.

I think one of the challenges of trying to be AP is that you get all these messages about "the way nature intends" for children to be parented, as if nature has any absolute rules.

For me, I started out as a committed co-sleeper and nighttime nurser. At the 7mo mark my PPD was so severe that my counsellor told me I needed to get Simon to sleep in his own bed. She even suggested CIO. This TOTALLY pissed me off because I felt like it completely disrespected my parenting choices, but then I held my tongue and thought about it. Co-sleeping and waking every 30, 60, 90 minutes is NOT working for me. It's damaging my love for my baby because I was resenting him practically all the time. I am a person who needs a minimum of 7.5hrs of sleep a night, and 5 of those really have to be consecutive, otherwise I become irritable, lose my ability to concentrate, and can't regulate my emotions. Is that what nature intended for me to suffer in the name of co-sleeping? I think not.

So we moved our baby to a crib in his own room, a couple of weeks ago. It hasn't been easy. We're so used to him nursing to sleep that we're having to learn new skills as parents to put him down gently so he doesn't rewaken, and he's having to learn new skills to soothe himself when he does wake...and I don't kid myself for a second that he's not waking, but if he just cries out once and then is silent, I stay in bed. If I hear him cry out more than 3x in a row at night, I am out of my bed in a flash and in his nursery to be with him. I don't consider that CIO, by the way. It's just how long it takes me to wake up and get there! I am responding to his needs but I'm ALSO changing our life so that MY needs as a mother and an individual can be met. And I think, more than anything else, that exercising my own choice and instinct makes me a good mother.

Night wakings are a big feature in our life right now but I'm working on ways to minimize them. I'm not night weaning because DS is in daycare all day, and a nighttime nursing (1x between 10-7) is a nice way to be close to him. We're moving his bedtime forward and doing more solids at dinner so that he is more likely to have longer stretches of sleep SO *I* can sleep, without doing away with the nighttime nursing. We're learning to deal with teething pain (Hyland's tablets or Boiron Camillia, or Advil in the worst cases), and I'm starting to remember to tuck him in with a blanket that I've been wearing as a shawl all evening, so it smells like me. My DH has done a few bottle feedings at night so I can stay in bed, for which I am SO grateful. It's a learning process, y'know? In a couple of months we'll have more good nights than bad, and we'll have done it without CIO.


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## tayvee (Jan 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Devaya* 
I
i have to say that i think a lot of moms on these forums, IMO, deserve some kind of medal for being so strong in the face of nightwaking that goes on for YEARS...i want to know, how do you deal with work where you have to use your brain, be organised etc (and that includes, obviously, WAH, but particularly WOH as then you are answerable to employers who expect certain standards....)

This is a very timely conversation because I'm struggling. I have a 16 month old. I bf on demand and co-sleep. He still wakes every 30 min - 2 hr (has never slept more than 2 hrs in a row) and has huge sleep issues at daycare because he can't get to sleep without bfing and has never had a bottle or pacifier.

I returned to work in January and have a very challenging job. My work is not at the caliber it used to be. Any work I do in the afternoon, I have to redo the next day because it is rife with errors in calculations. I'm a corporate training manager so have to learn new stuff on a dime and teach it back and produce mountains of statistical reports. I even thought I would lose my job in Feb. I've started trying to night wean. I also "cracked" and bought a crib 8 weeks ago, but it is still sitting in my basement in pieces.

If I'm not in bed with him, when he wakes, he just gets up and comes down the hallway looking for me. It's cute, but prevents me from getting anything done before I have to go to bed. I'm going to continue the nightweaning and see if the situation improves.

Hmm this was just a whiny response and probably freaked you out more about returning to work! Sorry about that.


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## Devaya (Sep 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayvee* 
This is a very timely conversation because I'm struggling. I have a 16 month old. I bf on demand and co-sleep. He still wakes every 30 min - 2 hr (has never slept more than 2 hrs in a row) and has huge sleep issues at daycare because he can't get to sleep without bfing and has never had a bottle or pacifier.

I returned to work in January and have a very challenging job. My work is not at the caliber it used to be. Any work I do in the afternoon, I have to redo the next day because it is rife with errors in calculations. I'm a corporate training manager so have to learn new stuff on a dime and teach it back and produce mountains of statistical reports. I even thought I would lose my job in Feb. I've started trying to night wean. I also "cracked" and bought a crib 8 weeks ago, but it is still sitting in my basement in pieces.

If I'm not in bed with him, when he wakes, he just gets up and comes down the hallway looking for me. It's cute, but prevents me from getting anything done before I have to go to bed. I'm going to continue the nightweaning and see if the situation improves.

Hmm this was just a whiny response and probably freaked you out more about returning to work! Sorry about that.

well, its good to just hear some truths







I'm sorry you're going through this. It must be so tough. good luck with the nightweaning!


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## Devaya (Sep 23, 2007)

indigo_sue said:


> I think one of the challenges of trying to be AP is that you get all these messages about "the way nature intends" for children to be parented, as if nature has any absolute rules.
> 
> Co-sleeping and waking every 30, 60, 90 minutes is NOT working for me. It's damaging my love for my baby because I was resenting him practically all the time. I am a person who needs a minimum of 7.5hrs of sleep a night, and 5 of those really have to be consecutive, otherwise I become irritable, lose my ability to concentrate, and can't regulate my emotions. Is that what nature intended for me to suffer in the name of co-sleeping? I think not.
> 
> ...


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## Anny (Apr 7, 2007)

It's so good to hear such honest responses! I'm getting so used to everyone being so 'gung ho' about how simply wonderfull AP is, with no restrictions at all, so it's great to hear that some of us maybe aren't all that thrilled with the night waking aspect of AP. I still think that AP is the way to go for us, but as previous posters have mentioned, if I had known about this constant night waking, I would have done things a bit differently .....

Anyway.... this is a thought I've been having for a while. We all talk about how this is so very natural and all and this is the way it's been done for centuries etc. Has anyone ever lived (or known anyone who lived) in a primitive type community, and seen how the babies slept? I've seen the gorgeous African ladies wearing their babies in slings and heard about Asian mamas wearing their babies while they work all day and stories like that, but I've never heard about how the babies sleep at night. Do they night wake ???? I'd love to hear how the mom's do it when they have never read NCSS or Ferber and have never heard of the internet !! Truely natural parenting. Thats what I want to know about!

I'm sure that our way of life contributes to AP being so hard. In a natural community, there would be lots of women living together, sharing the load. So if one was a bit sleep deprived, her neighbour would help out by making dinner etc. We never do that anymore, and so we struggle every day. We try so hard to be perfect modern women, and all the while we are strugging to be perfect ancient mama's. VERY hard to find a balance there.

Ok, will stop now, starting to ramble !!


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## lynx0333 (Dec 8, 2007)

wow such good discussion!

My version of parenting... perhaps ap perhaps not is the path of least resistance. We co-sleep and nurse frequently throughout the night... because so far that has been the path of least resistance for us. I get the most sleep possible without first going through less sleep (aka weaning or training or anything else).

I surrender to who my child is... but NOT loosing myself. the things I need for me... I make sure we get but in a way that also honors his needs. I try so hard not to worry about 'how nature intended' 'how that awesome AP mom does it' or what 'all my friends are doing' and granted many times it does not work and I feel guilty, full of shame and like a failure compared to all of this other crap... but then my husband says 'knock it off' and my baby laughs and I am like ok I am the one with this kid, and I wouldn't make any other choices so they have to be good enough.

There was a really good book I read called "our babies, ourselves" and it was an anthropological look at babies and parents in a variety of cultures to see what was universal needs for babies. The book is really great and I would totaly recomended it because it helps you see some of the 'issues' we face as complete cultural artifacts.


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## tayvee (Jan 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lynx0333* 
There was a really good book I read called "our babies, ourselves" and it was an anthropological look at babies and parents in a variety of cultures to see what was universal needs for babies. The book is really great and I would totaly recomended it because it helps you see some of the 'issues' we face as complete cultural artifacts.

Yea,







I read that book, too. I was trying to remember the name. It was excellent and really help reconfirm my decision to cosleep and nurse on demand.

This is an awesome discussion.


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## indigo_sue (Jan 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lynx0333* 
There was a really good book I read called "our babies, ourselves" and it was an anthropological look at babies and parents in a variety of cultures to see what was universal needs for babies. The book is really great and I would totaly recomended it because it helps you see some of the 'issues' we face as complete cultural artifacts.

I read that book too - it was the first thing I read when I got pregnant, actually. It was great inasfar as showing me that the way my parents were and the way the doctors tell you and the way they show on TV is NOT necessarily the way you HAVE to parent. It provided a viable alternative to bottles, cribs for newborns, and endless contraptions to keep your baby still. I also really appreciated the stuff about co-sleeping habits and sleep research because it empowered me with knowledge.

Too much knowledge can be a bad thing, though, when it gets in the way of your instincts and making choices that are right for YOU. I *know* the benefits of co-sleeping and that's why I was really hard for me to assert my right to a better night's sleep. (I'm not saying a "good" night's sleep because we're still not getting anything near that, but it's a darn sight better now with DS in a separate sleeping place). In the end I weighed my sanity and relationship off against a bankful of scientific research that was not specific to MY baby, and my sanity won.









But yeah, I would definitely recommend that book. In fact, thanks for reminding me, I'm going to go find my copy and loan it to my SIL who's now pregnant.


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## riomidwife (Sep 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anny* 
We all talk about how this is so very natural and all and this is the way it's been done for centuries etc. Has anyone ever lived (or known anyone who lived) in a primitive type community, and seen how the babies slept?

i've talked with my partner about--he's in a biological/evolutionary anthropology PhD program. i think what we came to upon last discussing the issue is that not all hunter-gatherer cultures approach night time parenting the same. he recently returned from an indian community in panama so i'll ask him about what he observed there.

i think one has to be careful when using the terms "natural" and evolution in regards to co-sleeping, etc. yes, babies are meant to sleep close to their parents, but i see no evolutionary advantage in a baby that fusses or cries to wake every hour to nurse. that would be a distinct disadvantage as it would be an attraction for predators. (yes i realize that not all babies wake up fussing or crying but you see my point)

another thing to remember is that babies evolved in an outdoor environment for the most part. that means minimal-to-none sound seclusion, and the constant visual stimulus of the changing natural word out-of-doors. so when talking about what is "natural," and attempting to extrapolate hunter-gatherer babies' experiences to a western culture, remember that their daily experiences are radically different, which i'd guess would in turn shape their night time behaviors as well.


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## Danielle13 (Oct 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elriomidwife* 
another thing to remember is that babies evolved in an outdoor environment for the most part. that means minimal-to-none sound seclusion, and the constant visual stimulus of the changing natural word out-of-doors. so when talking about what is "natural," and attempting to extrapolate hunter-gatherer babies' experiences to a western culture, remember that their daily experiences are radically different, which i'd guess would in turn shape their night time behaviors as well.

That is a very good point.

And jsut to be clear I was not bashing anyone for not co sleeping, I was refering to breast milk and not letting the babies cio. They way I see other people do it (FF, CIO) so their babies do sleep through the night. Both of those things I think are obvious things that are un-natural.


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## pishajane (Dec 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elriomidwife* 
i think one has to be careful when using the terms "natural" and evolution in regards to co-sleeping, etc. yes, babies are meant to sleep close to their parents, but i see no evolutionary advantage in a baby that fusses or cries to wake every hour to nurse. that would be a distinct disadvantage as it would be an attraction for predators. (yes i realize that not all babies wake up fussing or crying but you see my point)

ITA with this. My dd is 20 months now, and is still a very frequent night waker. She almost always wakes up with a loud scream, then cries and squirms until i help her find my nipple. Until she was about 12months, i thought this was because of teething - she got 2 teeth together at 4months, then rapidly got the rest between 5 - 10 months, then got her molars at 12 - 14 months!!
But lately i've been wondering if something could be actually wrong. Surely it's not normal to wake up crying all the time?? Most posts i read are about dc that latch on without even needing to wake fully. My dd has never done that, and we've co-slept since day 1. Recently we moved her into another room to see if that would help, and then we've tried various combos like just dh with her, just me or even just dd by herself. Nothing seems to change the pattern, so i guess in my case maybe it's not the co-sleeping waking her up?

FWIW i do think that it's normal for dc to wake thru the night a little - i know i ALWAYS get up at least once to pee, and i have to rouse to drink the water beside the bed too. I think it's really the lack of support from our families and friends who don't get it that really makes it hard.


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## pishajane (Dec 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Anny* 
I'm sure that our way of life contributes to AP being so hard. In a natural community, there would be lots of women living together, sharing the load. So if one was a bit sleep deprived, her neighbour would help out by making dinner etc. We never do that anymore, and so we struggle every day. We try so hard to be perfect modern women, and all the while we are strugging to be perfect ancient mama's. VERY hard to find a balance there.

I definitely think this is true. Take babywearing for example... i don't think it is always the mother who carries the child - the whole community helps with raising it. So other people, including the other dc help to carry the baby during the day, bringing it back to the mum for bf.
I struggle with finding a balance between what i believe is best for my kids, and what i'm physically capable of doing all by myself.


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## indigo_sue (Jan 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pishajane* 
I struggle with finding a balance between what i believe is best for my kids, and what i'm physically capable of doing all by myself.









: totally!!!!!!


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## Danielle13 (Oct 31, 2007)

I'd liek this answered...why is it that babies that AREN'T left to CIO but sleep in another room are STTN but my child who sleeps in my room isn't? why why why!


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## Anny (Apr 7, 2007)

Danielle, did you read the recent post on 'theres more to co-sleeping' ? It's rather amazing ! Basically, a mother and a co-sleeping toddler seemed to have shared the same dream...... wow !!!!!!!!!
I think that it's all about the wonderfull (but sometimes a pain in the ass to be quite honest!!!!) link between our fabulously bonded babies and us. They are so intuned to us, by our frequent contact and simply our awareness of them, that they simply miss us when we leave !
Thats a bit simplistic I know, but in a nutshell, thats what I believe is happening in a lot of cases. My 14 month old DD will wake minutes after I leave the bed in the morning, if I am there she sleeps a lot longer. She seems to be in a deep sleep, but still seems to be aware of my absence.
.... gotta go, will write more later !!


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## indigo_sue (Jan 2, 2007)

I totally agree, babies who are bonded through babywearing, cosleeping and other AP practices do tend to be more in tune with their mother's sleep cycles. For me, now that DS is in a separate room I thought I would be less likely to wake up if he stirs and rolls over, but what I'm finding is that I will wake up for no particular reason, thinking I've heard him. I wait a few minutes and don't hear ANYTHING (he always cries or fusses when he wakes) and then finally he does wake up. It seems like I'm aware that he's ABOUT to wake up even before it happens. Kind of creepy, kind of cool.


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## kkfum (Aug 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elriomidwife* 
i've talked with my partner about--he's in a biological/evolutionary anthropology PhD program. i think what we came to upon last discussing the issue is that not all hunter-gatherer cultures approach night time parenting the same. he recently returned from an indian community in panama so i'll ask him about what he observed there.

bumping and hopefully waiting for elriomidwife to get back to us on this!


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## ABmom (Mar 6, 2008)

This is such a good discussion. I think that is harder for a modern woman to practice AP 100% if she does not have the support of family and friends. My mom and MIL practice AP but they have sisters and nieces and friends to help out witht he child rearing. My brother and his wife practices AP and they found it very managable as they have help from sil's family. I don't have help so to practice AP 100% would be too trying thus ds sleeps in his own room. He still wakes once or twice at night and if he wants to nurse, I will offer it to him. I think that is is erroneous to assume that mothers who do not bf and do not cosleep practice CIO to get their los to STTN. There were nights when ds was younger that he did slept for 10-11 hrs straight. I wish that he would it again but I understand that teething, milestones, SA and illnesses can wreck a good sleeping habit. I personally think that being able to fall asleep and be able to go back to sleep is a skill that all babies/toddlers learn eventually. Some are quicker learners and some just need more help. All the sleep experts/books really do is undermine a woman's ability as a mother if her baby doesn't STTN or isn't able to fall asleep independently.

OK I'm rambling. I'll stop now.


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## Anny (Apr 7, 2007)

Amazingly, since I started this (rather fabulous!) thread on night waking, my nearly 14 month old DD has started to try and sooth herself back to sleep !

She has never EVER done this before, she has been a mummy's girl and a boobie baby since the minute she was born. I was despairing of her ever 'getting it' herself, since she wakes ever 2 hours at the moment and absolutely needs the boob to get back to sleep.

In the last week I've noticed that she's stopped waking 30 minutes after going to sleep (she has done that forEVER!) And she is also stirring, whimpering and rolling over, then heaving a big sigh and going back into a deeper sleep! Fan-bloody-tastic !!!

The other night she went from 7.30 pm till 1.30 am before waking me for some boobie. I was sooooo thrilled. Sadly though, I didn't sleep much in that time as I was constantly checking on her !! lol. Typical.

The mornings are still pretty crap, from around 4am onwards it's almost contstant boob, but that sounds like it's pretty common around here.

So, the moral of my little story is - TAKE HEART !! I have done nothing different of late, she is doing it all by herself. Oh, wait, I have been 'feeding her short' as suggested by Dr Jay Gordon, and popping her off the boob a bit earlier than I would normally. But then, we have been doing the 'Pantley pull off' for months so she'd kinda used to that. I just pop her off and she rolls over with her back to me and settles to sleep.

At the moment, I am very happy, things seem to be looking up around here! Fingers crossed they stay this way !!









Oh PS. Her day naps have improved too, she is sleeping for up to 2 1/2 hours, and now only on some days she needs boobing back to sleep. Used to be every day, every half an hour !!! She has gone the whole 2 hours on a couple of occasions this week.... So, it's all coming together.....


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## indigo_sue (Jan 2, 2007)

I too have some success to celebrate! We put DS in different PJs last night AND we stuffed him full of solids and boobmilk, and then he fell asleep and slept from 9pm to 5am! That's 8 hours! OK my boobs were fit to bursting when he finally woke up, but I actually went to bed at 10 so I got 7 consecutive uninterrupted hours of sleep. THAT hasn't happened since before I was pregnant!! I felt like I could take over the world today!

I have no illusions that this will happen again, but we've washed the PJs and he's wearing them again JUST in case.


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## Danielle13 (Oct 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *indigo_sue* 

I have no illusions that this will happen again, but we've washed the PJs and he's wearing them again JUST in case.









I remember dd sleeping 5 hours when I changed her jammies and I put them on her again the next night, and she went back to her crazy up all the time schedule







I hope you have better luck! I did get 4 strait hours last night which is 8x what i have been getting!! YAH!! sleep babies sleep!


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## SanRei (Mar 22, 2008)

I have a 9 month old who was sleeping 8 hour stretches from the age of 3 months to 6 months in her crib and then at 3 am, I would bring her to sleep the remainder of the night with us until 7am. However, from the age of 6 months until now, she started waking every 1.5 to 2 hours all night long so I brought her back into bed with us and she is back to co-sleeping the entire night. I am finding that she now won't fall asleep unless she has boob, and wakes up crying every time. Also as she is getting older and stronger, she now kicks me and reaches for me all night long so I can no longer sleep. On the other hand, I am not a good sleeper, and I worry that my insomnia will affect her sleeping - as I believe that there is a biofeedback thing that happens between moms and babies.

My fear is that she will get older and more set in her ways and we will all disrupt each other's sleep for the next year (or 2 or 3) and we are planning on having another baby at some point. I just started experimenting with putting her in the crib at 8pm and essentially night weaning - and running to her crib every 2 hours as she awakes (sometimes 3-5 hours) and soothe her back to sleep. As you can imagine this creates a lot of crying, but each time she cries, either papa or I hold her, rock her and soothe her until she falls back asleep. I imagine this is the accelerated 'no cry sleep solution' but with some crying involved. I offer a bit of water in case she is thirsty but no boob. At around 5am, I bring her back to bed with me and give her boob and let her sleep until she wakes up at 7am.

The interesting thing is that she awakes quite happy each morning, I am not sure how well rested she is but she is in a great mood and doesn't seem different than when she nursed all night. I will see how this works out over the next week and if she will sleep better at night on her own.

In response to the other posts about sleeping, I do think that it really depends on how the cosleeping is working with the mamas and papas. If everyone is happy, then it is working with the situation. If no one can sleep, then maybe the situation needs to be changed. I am hoping that some kind of combination can work for our family.

Yes, unfortunately we live in a society/time where we may need some flexibility. We have stressful and demanding jobs during the day where we need to have some kind of good rest at night. Gone are the days of the stay at home mom unfortunately. I would like to be able to have grandma or babysitter take care of our baby so we can have a night out once in awhile and not when baby is 4 years old. I don't want to be like other friends who go out for the first time when the baby is 2 or 3 years old and the child cries for 3 hours and refuses to go to sleep without mom. (I have babysat for several friends' kids in this situation - its quite common actually!)

I wish everyone the best with their night time sleeping!


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