# My 4 year old son told me that his father beats him with a "paddle", but there are no marks on him.



## Mouchois (Dec 29, 2009)

Should I be worried about this?
He's consistently told me and my mother (his grandma) that he is scared of his stepmom and his daddy, but we've just figured it was usual attention getting (his counselor told us that this may develop). He's also fought tooth and nail to go over to his house, but has no problem coming over to mine.

Now that I hear that his daddy supposedly has a paddle that he hits my son with, I am not sure what to do. I did get my son saying this on video.

We had also just recently found out that his stepmother has had a previous restraining order on her for violence. The act of violence was done in front of my son.

I REALLY need help with this as soon as possible. He goes back to his daddy tomorrow and I'm worried that something fishy is going on.


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## Maluhia (Jun 24, 2007)

Call the police and make a police report (this will bring CPS down on your ex and give you a reason NOT to send him tomorrow, legally).
Ask him no more about it and let a counselor get the full story out in a way that will be complete and non-traumatic for your son.
and of course cuddle him closer tonight....


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## Kailey's mom (Apr 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mouchois* 
Should I be worried about this?
He's consistently told me and my mother (his grandma) that he is scared of his stepmom and his daddy, but we've just figured it was usual attention getting (his counselor told us that this may develop). He's also fought tooth and nail to go over to his house, but has no problem coming over to mine.

Now that I hear that his daddy supposedly has a paddle that he hits my son with, I am not sure what to do. I did get my son saying this on video.

We had also just recently found out that his stepmother has had a previous restraining order on her for violence. The act of violence was done in front of my son.

I REALLY need help with this as soon as possible. He goes back to his daddy tomorrow and I'm worried that something fishy is going on.

Wow.. you can call and make the police report now, or be sure to escort your son to his fathers, and find the paddle, and call the police than.. either way, I think the outcome would be the same. I'm so sorry


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## Mouchois (Dec 29, 2009)

I'm so worried that doing any of this will seem like I'm reaching out for nothing.

I'm on a thin line with this whole custody thing and I don't want to make a mistake and lose any chances of getting what is best for my son.

His father DID decline to help in the counseling, which was recommended by our mediator due to my ex telling her that our son is hurting himself. It makes me wonder if he did this for an alterior motive.


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## Mouchois (Dec 29, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kailey's mom* 
Wow.. you can call and make the police report now, or be sure to escort your son to his fathers, and find the paddle, and call the police than.. either way, I think the outcome would be the same. I'm so sorry









I'm not allowed in their home.
I'm so worried and trying so hard to keep cool.


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## Kailey's mom (Apr 19, 2007)

oh sweetie.. you must be feeling so helpless at the moment, and scared. Do you have time to call the counselor and get your son in, before it's time for him to go to his father's house tomorrow? Does your son want to go? If a police officer came over, would your son say that he wants to go see daddy?

If you son does NOT want to go see daddy at all, this would be the time to bring him into the counselor, followed by a police report, possibly filed by the counselor.


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## HollyBaby (Dec 24, 2009)

I'm going to suggest telling your ex, in a non-accusatory way, what your son said. "I just want to let you know our son said this..." Gauge his reaction. He might admit using a paddle of some sort, or he might be so stunned he can't speak. You're right that it wouldn't be good to open a can of worms for nothing, that children do sometimes lie for attention (you said your son fights tooth and nal to go to his dad's house), but you would be irresponsible to presume he's lying and do nothing. So probe a little bit before taking action.

Do NOT question your son in depth your self. You don't want to be accused of coaching your son if he says mommy asks him a lot of questions all the time. Have a counselor talk to him.


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## HollyBaby (Dec 24, 2009)

I'm going to suggest telling your ex, in a non-accusatory way, what your son said. "I just want to let you know our son said this..." Gauge his reaction. He might admit using a paddle of some sort, or he might be so stunned he can't speak. You're right that it wouldn't be good to open a can of worms for nothing, that children do sometimes lie for attention (you said your son fights tooth and nal to go to his dad's house), but you would be irresponsible to presume he's lying and do nothing. So probe a little bit before taking action.

Do NOT question your son in depth your self. You don't want to be accused of coaching your son if he says mommy asks him a lot of questions all the time. Have a counselor talk to him.


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## Mouchois (Dec 29, 2009)

I'm currently on the phone with the Crisis Center. I figured that they would be the best to call over the police due to the nature and fragility of this whole custody deal.
I will let everyone know the outcome in case anyone else has this same problem.


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## Mouchois (Dec 29, 2009)

They recommended not to call the police at this time but, instead, call CSD and ask questions. Allow my child to go to his dad's tomorrow (I'm so scared to do this) and let CSD decide what should be done.

The video does have me asking him questions about it, but in a manner where I was rephrasing what he was saying.

This was the conversation exactly:

"Daddy is mean because he hits me with a paddle when he gets mad and I touch his candle"

"Yeah, baby... We don't touch candles"

"Yeah. And mommy [they tell my son that the stepmom is his "new" mommy] and daddy doesn't like me if I touch it. Daddy needs to be wapped with a paddle."

"No. We don't hit people. It's not nice"

"He doesn't like me cause I touch his candle. I have to wap him cuz he's bad too."

"Where does the paddle go?"

"Its gonna wap your butt purple. Daddy says "I will wap your butt purple".

"Oh. That's not good. Maybe he was just angry. He still loves you."

"NO! He hits my butt and makes me cry and breaks my heart. I have to wap him!"

I ended the conversation here with a "I'm sorry. Maybe you can tell daddy with your words how it makes you feel?"

I'm curious if I was prodding in any way during this conversation. Being a nervous mother at this point, who the heck knows?


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## acupuncturemomma (Dec 31, 2005)




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## boheime (Oct 25, 2005)

Please do something. An experienced (or perhaps just crafty) abuser can beat someone without leaving marks.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boheime* 
Please do something. An experienced (or perhaps just crafty) abuser can beat someone without leaving marks.









I had a distant relative who I personally witnessed kicking her son, hitting him across the face with a shoe, and hitting him with a wooden spoon, and that kid never had any marks on him. She didn't *try* not to leave marks...he just didn't mark easily.

She was reported to CPS more than once and didn't lose custody until he was 16 and started hitting back.


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## titania8 (Feb 15, 2007)

what a horrible situation.


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## Eeyore35 (Aug 2, 2009)

Unless he bruises easily, spanking with stick or paddle won't likely leave a mark. I was always spnked with a stick as a child,and the only time it left a mark was once when my dad accidentally hit my leg. That was my fault for fighting it,though. I was a difficult child.

It isn't ok for him to use a stick or padde, not at all. But I wasn't physically abused so hopefully,your son isn't either, altho the spanking needs to stop.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eeyore35* 
Unless he bruises easily, spanking with stick or paddle won't likely leave a mark. I was always spnked with a stick as a child,and the only time it left a mark was once when my dad accidentally hit my leg. That was my fault for fighting it,though. I was a difficult child.

It isn't ok for him to use a stick or padde, not at all. But I wasn't physically abused so hopefully,your son isn't either, altho the spanking needs to stop.

I think if you were hit by a stick, you were being abused







.

OP, I don't have any advice, but wanted to offer support. You might consider cross posting this to the single parents forum - some of those ladies have a lot of experience with custody issues and they might have some other advice.


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## 2lilsweetfoxes (Apr 11, 2005)

Scary thing and (in MDC and MDC-like circles) not right, is that in some places spanking with an instrument is perfectly legal and "within the rights of the parents".


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## Kailey's mom (Apr 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2lilsweetfoxes* 
Scary thing and (in MDC and MDC-like circles) not right, is that in some places spanking with an instrument is perfectly legal and "within the rights of the parents".

whoa, I did not even think about that.. but yeah, you are right. I *think* even in some schools, the principle has a paddle, and the parents can sign to allow the principal to spank.. I heard that somewhere.

people are so freekin twisted, if someone hit a dog with an object, the owner would be arrested for animal cruelty, no doubt. Hit a child with object =parental right?? MESSED THE HELL UP


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## bobandjess99 (Aug 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2lilsweetfoxes* 
Scary thing and (in MDC and MDC-like circles) not right, is that in some places spanking with an instrument is perfectly legal and "within the rights of the parents".

Yes this. As awful as it sounds, in many places it is completely legal to spank a child, even with an implement. The main juvenile court judge in my town is openly pro-spanking, actually. (I posted a while back about how a case went to appeals court where a mother had beaten her child with an extension cord! and had CPS action taken against her, and she then SUED the state, claiming ashe was well within her rights as a parent to dsiscipline her child that way and SHE WON.







Our local judge was on the state court decision, and wrote the opinion,







) While it sounds like something both fishy and wrong is going on, chances are, it's legal, and if the OP pursues it, SHE could actually end up being cast in a bad light by making accusations against the dad(it could be construed as custodial interference, not wanting him to have his visitation, etc), especially if the custody fight has already been ugly. It really is a VERY, VERY touchy area, and not the "OMG, call the police! He's abusing your child!" situation that it SHOULD be, and is here on MDC.
Good luck, OP. Keep documenting, and get as much OUTSIDE documentation as you can, talking/reporting this to your lawyer, mediator, etc.


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## Oubliette8 (Apr 15, 2009)

I would take your son to a good child psychologist with experience with child abuse and custody issues. I would not question your son any farther yourself. The counselor will talk with your son and it will help determine what is going on. They are mandated reporters and generally have a good grasp of what constitutes child abuse in their area, what CPS will act on, and may be able to direct you to legal resources if needed. It will also create an independent third-party expert opinion official record of the accusation, which is important if it goes any further.

I would also talk to your lawyer about it. You may be able to remedy it legally even if its not technically abuse in your state.

The other posters are correct, it is possible to beat a child with a paddle and not leave marks. Some kids don't bruise easily. And red marks can fade with a matter of hours. I think in some states there is actually a time given when defining marks- red marks present after x number of hours constitutes abuse, but red marks that fade before that do not. I assume your ex has your son for a period of time, so its possible that there are marks that simply fade before anyone sees them.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Moving to Parenting


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## tireesix (Apr 27, 2006)

Surely though, hitting such a young child must be illegal?

I mean, hitting a 4 year year old child with a hard object has to be illegal, right?

Someone tell me its illegal.

Hitting any child (with a hard object) has to be illegal.

My four year old loves candles, if she reaches for it we tell her no. Why would I need to hit her?


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## JBaxter (May 1, 2005)

Spanking or paddling a 4 yr old is not illegal in most states. It is not considered abuse unless it leaves marks. Now if stepmother does it it may be a different story.

Discuss it with his councelor but legally there may not be much that can be done.







He will say... He was touching a candle and I had to teach him not to...

Like the others said dont keep bringing it up to him let his councellor handle it from here on out.


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## Barefoot~Baker (Dec 25, 2008)

How awful









You & your son are in my prayers.


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tireesix* 
Surely though, hitting such a young child must be illegal?

I mean, hitting a 4 year year old child with a hard object has to be illegal, right?

Someone tell me its illegal.

Hitting any child (with a hard object) has to be illegal.

My four year old loves candles, if she reaches for it we tell her no. Why would I need to hit her?

Nope, not illegal in most states. In fact, most states do not have a minimum age of which corporal punishment is considered a valid form of discipline.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eeyore35* 
Unless he bruises easily, spanking with stick or paddle won't likely leave a mark. I was always spnked with a stick as a child,and the only time it left a mark was once when my dad accidentally hit my leg. That was my fault for fighting it,though. I was a difficult child.

It isn't ok for him to use a stick or padde, not at all. But I wasn't physically abused so hopefully,your son isn't either, altho the spanking needs to stop.

umm...I've had huge arguments here, because my view of spanking isn't totally in line with MDC.

However, if you were being "spanked" with a stick, you were being physically abused. It disturbs me greatly that you say it's your fault that you were bruised on your leg, because you were fighting being hit with a stick. Of _course_ you were fighting being hit with a stick!


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Does the court handling your case know about the restraining order on the stepmother? Because that's surely going to affect how reports of physical violence are handled regardless of the legality of the specific violence.

And no, it doesn't sound like you were pushing him. If anything, it seems more like you were giving him a chance to say that his father didn't actually do anything.










Oh and,







:, while it might not be possible to get better custody arrangements because he was hitting your son for touching a candle, you might be able to do something with the fact that the candle was in the reach of a 4 year old at all.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

It is surprising how hard one can hit without leaving marks.









Your four year old is hurting himself and your ex refused to help with counseling?? How is he hurting himself??


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

In most places, leaving visible marks is considered the threshold for abuse. Since there were no marks, it most likely will be considered normal spanking not abuse.

Bring it up with the counselor, talk to you lawyer, call CPS and just ask for advice. I think the simplest way to get it to stop is to tell your ex that you don't want him to do it any more, or to threaten it at all (I wonder if it might have been just a threat he made and that he didn't actually do it from what your DS said and the lack of marks left.)


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## Mouchois (Dec 29, 2009)

I wanted to check in with everyone and thank you all for the support.

I do have to say, the best thing that you can do in a situation like this is speak with your trial judge.

The movement for an expedited trial (made by the father to move my son out of state) has been dismissed for further review of the child's health safety.

I definitely recommend that NO ONE call the cops. In many states it is not illegal to hit a child, mine is one. If was to call the cops I would have most likely looked more like a bad guy than anything.

Thankfully I got the dismissal and I will be able to get my son into counseling asap. The counselor will then be able to determine if his father's house is a safe environment.

Once again, thank you all for all your support!


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

and







that the trial judge was helpful.

Please continue to update us in so far as you can do so without hindering yourself legally.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

I'm so glad to hear everything went well.








for your poor little guy and







for his great protective mama!


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

If there aren't marks then the spanking is probably legal, it is horrible and should be considered abusive but I doubt that there is a law against it. I think you should tell your spouse what your child said if you have a good relationship. I think you should paraphrase and just tell him that he thinks that his dad and the new wife don't like him because he touched the candles and then ask the dad to talk to him about this and help him know that he is loved. I think it would be awesome if they would remove children from parents who spank, but they won't in most cases and it is important that your child feel loved by both of his parents. If you can't talk to your ex then I think you should write him a letter and let him know what your son said and tell him that since you don't spank it would be helpful for him to explain to your son that he still loves him even though he has chosen to do so.


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