# WWYD of your child did this to your home EVERY DAY?



## Satori (Jan 30, 2003)

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...h/DSCF0324.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...h/DSCF0330.jpg

I bet you wouldn't believe me that I spend at least 2-3 hours a day cleaning my house and its still messy and its a small 1 bedroom apt! My 6 yr old is a tornado who refuses to clean up. (even when I start trashing everything) This mess actually took about 4 days to create since I haven't done much since my back has been hurting to much from the car accident on the 21st. I did have CLEAN, FOLDED laundry on the couch that was ready to be put away in the morning when the kids woke up and she unfolded ALL OF IT and I came in to find her throwing it around and sitting on it







: The clothes laying out are what I washed tonight and need to hang up in the morning before she rips it apart. Underneath are the clothes she undid. The ornament boxes are my doing since I started taking down the tree tonight as I know it will be a battle if I try doing it while she's awake. Anyway, she will create this kind of mess in a single day if I don't clean. I'm getting help to come clean on the 2nd thanks to Santa and ALL her toys are getting locked up and I don't know how I'm going to do it but I'm putting locks on her dresser and the closet too since she keeps pulling everything out of there too. WWYD if your kid created this type of mess EVERY SINGLE DAY? Nothing seems to get though to her that this is unacceptable and getting her to help clean it up is impossible because she just doesn't care about the mess. I'm having secret fantasy's of sending her to live with the Quaker family we met a few weeks back and letting them straighten her out there way! (no I wouldn't but darn it I want the nice polite kid who cleans too!)


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

What's their way?


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## Satori (Jan 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelgianSheepDog* 
What's their way?


From what I understood from the mom it involved a lot of things you can't advocate here on MDC.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Odd, I hope you don't think that has anything to do with Quakerism. Quakers are pacifists, or at least most are.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

BTDT. We're slobs, and have two messy children- so the debris sometimes gets even worse.
What works is to read the riot act and to ask the boys to fold the clothes and put things away. Use a hula hoop to contain a small area, and get them to clean that area in one sitting (but do as many sittings as you like before you get a break.) And- this is the key thing- never ever leave a job half finished. If you take the clothes out of the dryer, fold them and put them straight into someone's hands to be put in the drawer.
The secret weapon, however, is having loads of playdates when the house is tidy and none when it's not. Kids care what their friends think of them.


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

My 6yo dd can create a mess out of nothing in 10 minutes flat. I was a lot like her when I was
her age. For me it's not about the "mess" it's taking responsibility for her belongings and also
respect of the communal spaces in the house.

I don't "clean up" after my dd. I clean the whole house, and if she makes a mess and it's in the
communal space of the home she is expected to pick it up. I don't want our room to be a disaster
since we share that area. She has a play room that is ALWAYS crazy messy. That is her space. If
she can't find a toy I remind her that if she put things back she would be able to find them. She is
slowly learning this lesson. I have also explained that she will not be getting any more toys with
pieces or board games until she takes care of the ones she already has. So at least she is putting
away her board games now.

I don't get mad about it. We just talk about it. She has refused to pick up items in the communal
areas before. I simply pick it all up into a trash bag and put it into the basement. If she forgets
about the items, I donate or freecycle them. If she remembers she earns them back. This hasn't
happened for a long time though. The lesson was learned.

I also try to keep a head space that dd is 6. It's fun to destroy. It's fun to watch all her clean clothes
fly into the air when she throws them about. It's fun to pour a whole container of leggo's onto
the floor. She isn't trying to actively complicate my life. She's being 6.


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Satori* 
I want the nice polite kid who cleans too!

These exist?


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Satori* 
I did have CLEAN, FOLDED laundry on the couch that was ready to be put away in the morning when the kids woke up and she unfolded ALL OF IT and I came in to find her throwing it around and sitting on it







:


This I could not tolerate. If dc were 2 or 3, I would say that is to be expected, and the adult should make sure the clothing is out of reach or away. But 6? (my dd will be 6 in Feb). No way.

I would explain that I worked hard to clean and fold that laundry, and that it was wrong for her to ruin my work. And I would communicate that I expect her to pick it up and refold it as best she could. No, it wouldn't be perfect....but she needs to do her best to make it right. I know all about power struggles, and I know that this could become a bad one--but I would at least communicate the expectation. And, if she came to me asking for something (play with her, read a book, etc), I would answer "after the laundry is refolded" and continue with my work.

Beyond that, I would try to figure out why she would dump and sit on folded laundry. Does she need a designated, clear space to play? Does she really like to climb on the couch? (I know my dd does, so that is an unwise place for me to leave laundry). Does she have some unmet need? (food, attention, rest, etc).


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

My ds finds laundry irresistable, too. One thing that works for me is to fold it into those lidded storage bins so they are out of sight. If your dd is hellbent on annoying you, it wouldn't stop her. In that case, I would guess she is doing it for attention and planning a ton of fun time together might help. There was a time when I couldn't do any cleaning in front of ds because making messes for mommy became the game. I weeded out all the toys with many parts at that point.


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

WWID? I would cry.

My DD is not that old yet but we send her to Montessori school now and I like some of the principles they use to teach children to respect their "works" (toys) and the space. So far, using Montessori techniques have helped a lot here. -Within reason, I don't expect DD to be compulsively clean.









We only keep out a certain number of toys - DH is on his way to buy containers for the old ones now. I try and keep it around 10. Each toy/puzzle/book/whatever has its own place and DD has her own work area to play with the toy. When she takes the toy down, she plays with it until she is done and then she is expected to put it back where it belongs. Even if she takes out all of her toys at once though, there are only 10 so it only takes a few minutes to straighten up. Having your own work area is important too. In school, DD has a mat (2' x 3' or so) that is her work area. No one invades her work area and there is only one work in the area at a given time. It is just more orderly that way.

One thing I did see in your place is that there is a large amount of stuff. I know you are in a small space, can you pack away most of it until you move to a bigger place or give away a lot of it? I am on a quest to get rid of a lot of stuff right now.

Oh, and we are far from being neat people. My mom never instilled a method of straightening in me even though she was compulsively clean so I have been learning it as an adult. That is why I started with DD so young, because I wish that was something my mom had done for me. And I like the idea of "if it is in the communal area and it doesn't get picked up, its freecycled". We will do that when DD is a little older I think.

Good luck, I wish you the best.


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## sehbub (Mar 15, 2006)

EVERY day? While 32 weeks pregnant with an 8 month old trying to crawl? I'd bawl, constantly.


















I have no suggestions, as I've never dealt with anything like this. Our older two are pretty good about at least getting their toys off the floor and throwing them on their shelves. Soon we're going to try and get some baskets to keep their toys and things in while on their shelves, but for now as long as they're near the shelves I'm happy.









The Montessori techniques sound like a great idea. Worth a try!


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## MommytoTwo (Jun 20, 2004)

I would tell her to pick it up, if she didnt, for every item she trashed and refused to pick up I would take away a toy. If she still didnt do it I'd throw the toy in the garbage in front of her.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

as you can see from my sig, i have two dds. one is almost 6 and she hates to clean. it drives dh and me nuts. she doesn't purposefully create a mess to get out goats, but she just does endless art projects which involve dumping out all the crayons and cutting up lots of shreds of paper. we're forever picking up after her very resentfully.

my younger dd (3) can create a mess, too, but she really is much more apt to pick things back up with prompting. if i ask dd1 to pick up she will say things like, "i HATE to pick up. i'm NOT picking up anything. i'm NEVER going to pick up ever again." grrrrrrrr.... i've talked and talked until i'm blue in the face.

i think a lot of our problem is too much stuff. i have packrat tendencies and dh does, too, though he wouldn't admit it, but you should see the amount of computer eqpt here. i have slowly been trying to get organized, though. i've been putting their art stuff and toys in designated bins that have a little picture and words that show what goes in them. (both my mom and my dh gave me more BINS and baskets for christmas, too!) i'm trying to keep on top of it.

dh did a masterful job of cleaning the basement playroom all christmas eve night so santa wouldn't trip when he came down the chimney. he put away about 12 loads of laundry and picked up tons and tons and tons of toys and just trash (art project scraps mostly) from the floor. i really would prefer if they confined their trashing of the house to down there, but gosh it looks nice un-trashed. they really don't want to play down there unless we're with them, though and i prefer to spend most of my time upstairs in the kitchen and living room so those are the areas that frequently get hit by little tornadoes.

i've been boxing some things up this morning (it is boxing day after all) to take to the thrift store. i just really need to get rid of a lot of stuff. i think the girls need to see me get rid of my stuff before they can get a handle on the idea of getting rid of their stuff, but again my 3 yr old is better at this than my almost 6 yr old.

i think a lot of it is just temperament. my older dd is very very ACquisitive. she just wants stuff. you should see the panic that sets in if we go out to buy, say, a pair of shoes and none of the ones at the store are quite right. she feels this desperation to just get something, get anything she's got to GET GET GET! seriously, that was her first word. no lie. as a baby the first thing she said was not Mama or Da-Da it was GET. i'm fighting an uphill battle here, but we keep fighting it. i remind her that toys are nice, but that people are the best thing of all. it's a lot of fun to play with her friends' toys, but it's a lot more fun to play with her friends. she wouldn't really want her friend's mom to drop off toys for a playdate and no kid.

i think sometimes when my girls see a cluttered space even if the laundry is all folded it's just too much for them and they feel "cluttered in their heads" as i sometimes tell them i feel. think about it, when you walk into a space that is just chock full of stuff even if it's put away and not taking up valuable butt-space on the couch, you can feel kinda edgy and icky and stressed out. do you know what i mean? i'm not being particularly articulate, but i'll try to make an example. take your space out of it. say you've been invited to a friend's parents' house and these folks collect knick knacks and have them all over the living room on shelves and tables etc. your kids aren't with you so you don't have the worry that someone might knock something over, but you might still feel a little claustrophobic and jumbled in that kind of space. now imagine the opposite -- you're invited to a house that has only one or two special items out and the rest are out of sight and pulled out when they're needed. your mind might feel more restful and settled. if you can imagine what a 6 yr old might feel like in those kinds of environments maybe you can see why some 6 yr olds might feel like taking all the stuff and strewing it all around. it may just be a response to feeling out of sorts. now, i'm really talking to myself as much as anybody else here. i DO NOT have the uncluttered house. i have seen my dd1, though, when we go to dh's mom's who has a very neat house (she has housekeepers come in once or twice a week, too, i think) and dd1 loves it. i think she really revels in that clean neat space. that's not to say that she doesn't make a mess there. she does, but i think on some level she appreciates the clean orderly space.

anyway, i'm rambling, but i wanted to commiserate and let you know what we're trying to do with very very modest success with dd1, but some success with dd2. we model de-cluttering. we model picking up. we model having a designated place for everything and everything in it's place. we model as best we can model which admittedly is not so well some days (see earlier disclaimer about being a packrat, but i'm trying to reform). i think we really need to fix up our space some more (our walls have needed painting for about 5 years) for dd1 to appreciate it. i guess it's about respecting our environment.

gotta go help somebody on the potty....

hth


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Hmmm. I have a little three year old so I have NOT BTDT. I mean, he does create a lot of mess, sometimes even on purpose, but he's not six and can't be expected to put things away without me focusing on it and singing the cleanup time song and stuff like that.

She's six. Do you think you could give her the chore of folding and putting away her own clothing? Not as a punishment, as a real job that she always does. You might have to supervise her. If she's so crazy about laundry she might really enjoy it. Then you wouldn't have to do her clothes--you might be able to fold the rest of the family laundry with her--and you could put things away together.


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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

I can't stand messes. I would cry. And then set a timer. If the mess wasn't being cleaned up by the timer went off, any toys in the mess would be thrown out permanently. I would help clean up of course, but not without dd's help. Yes, I am mean. I would not leave laundry within dc's reach if she is too tempted by it.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Some of that doesn't look like kid mess to me. Is that a vaccum cleaner and boxes of unopened tinsel in the room? (or is that a stack of computer paper?) Those stacked plastic bins with stuff on top of them? The stroller? (or is that a car seat? Can you put the stroller in the hallway or in the car trunk if you have one? In the bedroom? Hall closet?

I find my kids are better at not doing crazy things if there is some ryhme and reason to begin with. Some of it can't be helped when you live in a small home, but purging frequently helps me.


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## Dreaming (Feb 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom* 
Some of that doesn't look like kid mess to me. Is that a vaccum cleaner and boxes of unopened tinsel in the room? (or is that a stack of computer paper?) Those stacked plastic bins with stuff on top of them? The stroller? (or is that a car seat? Can you put the stroller in the hallway or in the car trunk if you have one? In the bedroom? Hall closet?

I find my kids are better at not doing crazy things if there is some ryhme and reason to begin with. Some of it can't be helped when you live in a small home, but purging frequently helps me.

this.
i can see that some of it is the 6 yr olds mess but it also appears that you need to take responsibility and set an example.
i also agree with the idea of finishing a task (ie fold and put away laundry instead of leaving it out).


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Artist Mama* 
this.
i can see that some of it is the 6 yr olds mess but it also appears that you need to take responsibility and set an example.
i also agree with the idea of finishing a task (ie fold and put away laundry instead of leaving it out).

If the OP's house is like mine (and gee, sure looks like it is!







) you have to go into the room where the child is sleeping to put away the clothing. So you might perpetually have a cycle where you wait to fold until she's asleep, then go to bed, then she wakes up and trashes your folding project, perhaps before you're even out of bed!

Hence my suggestion to do it together. Since she's six, enlist her help.


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## Meg Murry. (Sep 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Satori* 
I'm having secret fantasy's of sen...n Dictatorial Order-Givin', Butt-Sittin' Mom.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

I have to agree with the above two posters.

Before you can expect the 6 year old to take you seriously or even know what it is that you want (and I do agree that at 6, frankly, she can and should take responsibility for care of communal spaces as well as her own), you need to get your act together.

It looks like you might need to do some purging of your own stuff. Or bite the bullet and get a storage space. Once you have enough space so that she can actually see what neat and orderly can look like, then you can ask her to help you maintain it. She is not going to learn how to do that with that much space taken up by things. Even if she were magically to be Miss Sparkle overnight, you'd STILL feel hemmed in and cluttered with a ton of stuff sitting around, especially in those gigantic containers.

It sounds like you are focusing extra stuff on her that isn't fair. It's totally out of line for her to destroy your folded laundry. OTOH, why is folded laundry sitting out in the first place, or why isn't she expected to put it away once you fold it?

I know what it's like to have too much stuff crammed into a too small space, to have kids that rip through it and create more chaos. But when it got to the nervous breakdown point for me, I had to take a VERY hard look at myself. And in the end I literally ended up purging half of my stuff, and boxing up 1/4 more for storage. Even now that I have space and storage, every six months I MUST go through and purge things or else it gets out of control.

The pictures you've shown show surface kid mess. But underneath it is adult disorganization and clutter, unless your 6 year old was dragging the vaccuum around and leaving it in the room, and threw a bunch of storage tubs in there and is responsible for having large, bulky items (like the carseat) laying around--which could very well be true, as in she drags them out of whatever closed door you've put them behind, I'm *not* discounting the possibility. You're not going to get rid of the kid mess without solving the underlying problem. It's VERY hard to do in a small apartment. And storage is not free in most places. But in the four months it took me to process my stuff and give myself a breather, that $20/mo. was a lifesaver just so that I could have some peace and the rest of my family could breathe as well.

If you're not naturally organized (and I'm going to go out on a limb and say you're probably not), it is a REALLY hard thing to do. It's often very hard to explain to people as well, if you feel better with less clutter but aren't very good at maintaining that in the first place. It's even harder to do when you have too much stuff in too little of a space, and if you come from a background where you worry about not having something when you need it, someday.

I think it's time that your 6 year old had some chores. It is inappropriate of her to destroy work that you've done. It is not wrong for you to give her some consequences for doing something like that. However, please understand that if that is the environment she's seen all her life, she is not going to 'see' what needs to be done to make things look neater. And it may also be part of her nature (I was raised by textbook OCD parents, the house was spotless, but I was taught nothing and was punished for doing things 'wrong', and even though I was IN neat and organized since I can remember, for whatever reason it's hard for me to see what to do when confronted by a lot of stuff.)

I'm not saying your house is a pit. Not by a long shot.







But to be honest, I see more things in there that an adult should correct than six year old wild rumpus mess. And if it's really starting to bother you, then you should not only get tough with her stuff, but also with yours. I know how hard/nervewracking that is to do though. Damn near overwhelming.


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## northwoods1995 (Nov 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom* 
Some of that doesn't look like kid mess to me. Is that a vaccum cleaner and boxes of unopened tinsel in the room? (or is that a stack of computer paper?) Those stacked plastic bins with stuff on top of them? The stroller? (or is that a car seat? Can you put the stroller in the hallway or in the car trunk if you have one? In the bedroom? Hall closet?

I find my kids are better at not doing crazy things if there is some ryhme and reason to begin with. Some of it can't be helped when you live in a small home, but purging frequently helps me.


I was thinking the same thing. We did a massive de-cluttering project this summer and it really helped to cut down on the big messes in our house. I get reallllly overwhelmed when the house gets in a major state of disaster and DH hates clutter. We purged a BUNCH of stuff--sold it or donated it and it was a great thing for our whole family!

About the laundry--my son is 3 and he really likes to unfold and throw our freshly washed and folded laundry too.







: I make sure it is out of his reach or just put it away right away so he can't get to it.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Quote:

Some of that doesn't look like kid mess to me. Is that a vaccum cleaner and boxes of unopened tinsel in the room? (or is that a stack of computer paper?) Those stacked plastic bins with stuff on top of them? The stroller? (or is that a car seat? Can you put the stroller in the hallway or in the car trunk if you have one? In the bedroom? Hall closet?
Yup, that's what I was thinking. Most of that just looks like it needs a place. When I saw the pics I just assumed it was a junk room where everything just gets thrown.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

I mean this very gently (believe me I've BTDT) but I agree with what Tigerchild said.

From your pictures it does look like you have a clutter problem. I have one too. I could show similar pictures trust me. You might find it easier to enlist your dd's help if you get a handle on clutter and create a more simplified space. You can also start implementing routines. I found it easier to begin to enlist the kids when we had our own stuff more under control.

Not everyone likes flylady but she works for some people. I use her ideas but I don't follow her program.

The Decluttering forum in Mindful Home Management is a great place if you want to talk with other moms who are decluttering.

My house is far from perfect but we're getting there. When we were living in chaos it seemed like my kids were much more destructive.

Good Luck


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## Kwgrlup (Nov 12, 2005)

I agree with what many are saying, your house just needs to be declutter and reorganized. I have BTDT myself so I know how hard it can be especially when you live in a small space, which I always have..







. What I did was first declutter everything that I did not need. Get rid of it. Do not spend much time thinking, becasue you end up keeping to much...lol. Then I oragnized so that everything had a place and clean up is a breeze. My son had been required to keep have his room spotless every night before he goes to bed, since he was around 5. His room is very organized, so that he can pick it all up in 10 minutes flat, even if everything is one the floor. I also fold laundry as soon as it comes out of the dryer, then have my son (who is 7) put his own laundry away. I also have him pick-up all the toys in the house a few times a week. He complains about picking up after his little brother, but I tell him it is part of living in a house with other people. I told him I wash his clothes, even though I did not get them dirty. He is usually more than happy to help out after I tell him I will not wash his underwear anymore...lol. We have never had a problem, because honestly there is no choice, you pick-up if you live in my home. If he does not, then he looses certain privilages, playdates, toys, etc. We also declutter every 6 months, I will go through certain things with him, but the things I know I will have a battle with I get rid of when he is asleep. I hope things get better. I find that my whole family is less stressed and in better spirits when the house is clean and clutter free....







.


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## fotomama (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Satori* 
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...h/DSCF0324.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...h/DSCF0330.jpg

I bet you wouldn't believe me that I spend at least 2-3 hours a day cleaning my house









You're right. I wouldn't.....

Not being mean here, but just taking a quick look at those pictures. 4 (maybe more??) boxes of christmas ornaments lying around, an old computer monitor, loose rolls of toliet paper, empty ziploc containers, extra large box of twinkies on the couch, many plants, watering can (can't you bring the plants to the sink?), empty priority postage boxes, luggage rack, tinsel, empty plastic bags. All of these things could go. Today.









Can't say I blame your dd for making a mess, but I'd guess that she is simply trying to clear a space to play. I'd go crazy too.









I have lived in really messy houses, so definately BTDT. But, it is unreasonable to expect your 6y/o child to keep things clean and orderly if you dont. I doubt that she can reach to haphazardly throw things on top of the large white storage bin in the second pic, that she can freecycle the cream-colored bouncing chair in the second pic or the brightly-colored, mirrored toy in the first; both seem very age inappropriate for a 6 y/o. There are probably other unneccesary things here, too. Get rid of them before your friend comes to help you clean. You could even have your dd help you. Three boxes - can't part with it, someone else could use it, trash. Then, freecycle, Salvation Army or Goodwill (even consign and make a little $$!) with the someone else could use it box, THROW AWAY all the trash!!! Find a place for the can't part with it stuff, and if you can't find a place for it, give it away too. It's hard. But things are just that. Things.

HTH. You can do it!









ETA: Geez this thread is getting heated!







Hope the above comments were taken in the







same fashion as they were given. In that effort - just thought I would add that if you DO decide to get rid of some stuff, a lot of places can even come pick up donations. (I know this, because I got SOOO tired of filling up the trunk of my car four times a week to drive toys, clothes and whatnot to the Salvation Army. Called them, made a huge pile, and they dealt with it. ahhhh.... much better. Sounds like you have your hands full. Hope you're feeling better!)


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Ok, with the laundry tossing issue. You're absolutely right. She's six, that's freaking ridiculous. Were it my six year old ds, I would demonstrate laundry folding and then stand there while he folded up everything he had tossed. Then if there was no baby sleeping where the clothes needed to go, he and I would go put them away.

For your own reference, I'd check out www.flylady.net


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

My dd is only 3, but she lives to make messes. She gets great joy out of flinging everything she can everywhere she can. She always has. Her idea of "play" sometimes involves emptying every basket, container, whatever she can find and throwing it all around the house. As I clean up one thing, she either undos it immediately or finds another mess to make.

If you saw pictures of my house, you'd see adult clutter. Why? I spend so much time doing damage control and cleaning up after little Ms. Destructo that time to declutter is worth more than gold. My husband has this week off of work, and I am *so* excited to be able to spend the week organizing and getting rid of stuff.

I can see my dd being 6 and still taking absolute joy in making messes. Cross my fingers that it isn't true, but I'm not making any bets.









I suppose my point is that adult clutter in the pictures may actually be because of the time needed to clean up after the 6 year old's messes. I find it very easy to believe a person could spend 2-3 hours a day trying to keep up with a 6 year old hellbent on chaos!

- - -

Satori, you mentioned that you'll have help soon. Wonderful! Use it to declutter and organize and kid-proof as much as possible.

And then what? I'm not sure, as I don't have much experience with 6 year olds. I will say that I'd be open to finding a reward system that was meaningful for your dd, and one that started with small goals so that she can experience a sense of accomplishment. I know many posters here at MDC aren't happy with rewards, and I'm not super gung-ho, but with highly energetic strong willed children, I think simple rewards can get their attention.

I don't think you can expect her to change her patterns drastically, but with a reasonably clean house as a starting point, and guidance and positive support, I bet you can begin to nudge your dd towards making _less_ mess. It will take time, patience, and effort, but I really believe that gentle and (somewhat flexible) structure can help a feisty child learn new skills.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

The pictures you've shown show surface kid mess. But underneath it is adult disorganization and clutter
This is what I see also. I think its okay if you are comfortable with it -- but I think its a problem to blame it on your dd. Even adults have a difficult time cleaning up and being neat if the underlying system is disorderly.

I'm going to be the only one on the thread to disagree about the laundry -- I would never leave clean and folded laundry sitting on the sofa. I do leave it overnight, but only in a basket on a table, or dresser top. Sofas are for sitting on. My children are neat and tidy little souls, but they would be oblivous to stacks of laundry on a sofa. They would lay down in it to watch TV!


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

My son and I moved from a large 3 bedroom house, to a small 2 bedroom apartment. I understand having lots of stuff, and very little place to put it. But clutter drives me NUTS .. I seriously felt my blood pressure rise just looking at those pics you posted!! I'm sorry, but that is not kid mess, it's clutter.

My son is 4 and not very good at picking up after himself. I used to just go around at the end of the day and clean up after him, but recently we've started cleaning up together and he's been very receptive. Whenever I see he's moved on from one toy and is taking out another, I ask him to help me put the old one away. It's working well, and he's even remembering to put some of the toys away before he gets out another one.

Ok, this opinion/suggestion may not be popular, but I'm going to be brave and say it. How can you expect your daughter to pick things up when your house is so cluttered and messy? I'm not trying to be harsh, but I also think it's way unfair to blame that mess on a 6 year old.

Like I said, I certainly understand being limited on space. Could you rent a storage unit? I know I had to get rid of lots of things, buy large plastic bins and stack and store lots of our things in the back of closets. I also love www.flylady.com , I don't do it like you are supposed to, but she does have great suggestions for decluttering.

I'd work on cleaning up your space, making a place for everything, and set a good example for your dd. Kids learn best by example, kwim?


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## kittn (Mar 6, 2006)

I understand small spaces. I had 5 people in a really small 2 br attic apt.
Some people are Born organised (BO's) and others are like me Sidetracked home executives (SHE's) They are fly lady concepts. I am just not good at getting it done without a plan. I joined flylady and it helped me get a plan. both for me and mymy DS1 who cant keep his stuff strait if you pay him. hes as much of a mess as I am


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## 1growingsprout (Nov 14, 2005)

do a massive purge this weekend ( new years) new clean house to start the new year??
man thats ALOT of stuff...


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## 1growingsprout (Nov 14, 2005)

check out the organizing/declutter threat in mindful home mgnt


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## sparkprincess (Sep 10, 2004)

I agree with many of the PPs. I know it's got to be hard to find a place for everything in a small living space. But it has to be done somehow. Heck, even if you just start buying rubbermaid totes a few at a time and filling them, labeling them and then stacking them against a wall somewhere. Maybe it would be best to purge first, find an organization system for the rest of the stuff, and then you and dd can start a picking up routine together. Set a time and run around picking up as many toys as you can in 10 minutes. Get into the habit of picking up before bedtime, stuff like that.

Also, I don't know if your dd has chores to do or not, but that might be a good thing to start. I know some people do not like to have their kids do chores, but I would take a very matter-of-fact approach about it. It doesn't have to be any type of punishment, but just helping her realize that life=work. If we want clean clothes to wear we have to wash them, fold them, and put them away. No punishment about it - just _life_!

Anyway, I hope you can heal up soon. I'm sure that makes all this all the harder!


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

You know what I suggest? Get out the yellow pages and call all the storage places in your area and rent a storage unit. Storage units in our area are air conditioned and quite pricey but I not-too-long ago saw one advertised for $16 a month, it was small and an odd size (4x6 or something) but even something of that size would really help. Then go clear out everything you don't need to use in the next week and move it into the storage unit. Then deep clean and start again. Organize each and every room. Perhaps start with your child's room so she can have a clean, tidy place to play. Then make the liviing room a comfortable oasis, something you can relax in and enjoy. Everytime you find stuff that you figure you can put into storage, do. Go to the storage unit every day for a while and add more stuff. Err on the side of caution and get rid of more than you want to. You might find that you need to go back to it and take things out every once in a while, but eventually you will figure out the right balance of stuff that you need and don't need in your small place.

We have clutter issues, majorly, so I can totally relate. It is so frustrating when your children make it even harder to get things clean but I occasionally have to admit that it is my fault for not modelling tidiness for my children when it gets really bad. (I go in cycles of presentable and not presentable)

The cleanest we get our house is when we tear apart a room and completely rearrange it, because we clean from top to bottom before moving a piece of furniture back into that place.

Best wishes for finding the motivation to tidy things up and teach your daughter by example how to keep things tidy by picking them up every day! We have just recently started getting our children to pick up their rooms again every evening before storytime. It works! Good luck!


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## LouCostello (Sep 16, 2005)

Those rooms look really dangerous.

How can you expect a six year old to care about her home and belongings if her mother doesn't care either? I see lots of expensive items tossed about and I doubt very seriously it was your daughter's doing.

A mess like that is certainly isolating. When was the last time either of you had company?

I'm going to take a shot in the very cluttered dark and say that you are experiencing symptoms of depression. I hope you get help; your family shouldn't have to live like that and neither should you.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

satori,







.

how are you doing? i can imagine i would have been pretty hopping mad if my almost 6 yr old had strewed my stuff all around. hope things have settled down some.

i think folks on this thread have some good points, but as a person who is clutter-challenged some of the posts seem pretty harsh to me, so i just wanted to come back on and give you a hug.

i do wonder as i mentioned in my earlier post if your dd's behavior is partially to blame on having too much stuff in a small place. that's one of dh's and my goals for the new year -- to get our place fixed up and then keep it more orderly and i hope if we can do it that it will inspire dd1 in particular to put things away instead of leaving them in the middle of the floor.

i'm wondering, though, if your dd does this all the time if something else is going on with her. you said you were having to undecorate the tree at night because she would mess that up, too. that's a bit extreme. do you think it's just a personality thing or maybe a sensory issue? my dd1 will tell me when i clean up her room, "i LIKE it messy. i'm going to make it all messy again!" but i think she really likes it neat and plays in it more when i've picked up. she would totally not want to help clean up, but i don't think she would actively thwart my efforts to do so. maybe she resents the amount of time you spend cleaning and not playing with her? you said santa was going to help you with housekeeping in the new year. maybe that will help some.

maybe you could do some problem-solving with your dd? tell her how you feel when it's all messed up and cluttered and how you really can't deal with it and elicit her ideas of how to cope. you know the drill from "how to talk..."? make a list of all your ideas and all her ideas and ALL ideas are fair game so if she says, "throw it all aroud the room" you write down "throw it all around the room". when you've exhausted all of both of your ideas then you each get to strike through ideas until you can come up with some solutions that you are both willing to try. i find that sometimes doing this kind of problem-solving where i really write down my dd's ideas makes her feel empowered and listened to. if i'm not careful, though, she can feel patronized, so i have to approach it with an open mind and heart and squelch those ulterior motives.

anyway, just wanted to give you another







and hope things are better today.


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

The majority of that mess looks to me like adult mess and not 6-year-old mess. I think you have to set a good example of cleanliness if you expect children to keep things tidy.

Also, if all of that mess was made by your 6-year-old, does she do it while you're there watching? I don't understand how she could have time to do this while you're not watching her.


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## kittn (Mar 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beanma* 
satori,







.

but as a person who is clutter-challenged some of the posts seem pretty harsh to me, so i just wanted to come back on and give you a hug.


Im clutter challenged too. oh what a burden

Quote:

i'm wondering, though, if your dd does this all the time if something else is going on with her.
I thought the same thing. Either your expectations are off on what she should/shouldn't be doing or she may have some sensory/development issues. I know personally when my house is cluttered or messy I get angry at the kids for every little mess they make because it overwhelms me. So I pick one small surface to clean off, like a shelf or whatever and do a little at a time.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Am I the only one who thinks I can't judge how much of the mess was made by Satori herself without seeing "before" pictures as well as the "after" pictures??

I would:
-discuss the way Beanma suggested
-put the laundry away right after folding; if that's not possible, store it temporarily in a closed container or put it on a surface the kid is less likely to want to use. The idea is to give her no excuse to get into the laundry.
-have the kid spend as little time as possible alone in a room so that she can't make a big mess before somebody calls her on it.


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## LouCostello (Sep 16, 2005)

Quote:

Am I the only one who thinks I can't judge how much of the mess was made by Satori herself without seeing "before" pictures as well as the "after" pictures??
I hope so. Her kid must have Herculean strength in order to move all the stuff I see in those pictures.

There a potted plant teetering very dangerously on the edge of the table. It looks like it was painted with love by little 6yo hands. Either it hurts someone physically when it lands on a head or a foot, or her DD's feelings get hurt because her mother couldn't be bothered to put it up.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

gosh y'all are harshing on satori! did you see in her post where she said she hurt her back in a car accident on the 21st? she's a single mom with a messy 6 yr old and a baby. well maybe i wouldn't be able to keep tabs on my 6 yr old either if i was laid up in bed with a bad back. she has a whole thread about the accident elsewhere. cut her some slack!


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## LouCostello (Sep 16, 2005)

I doubt that entire mess was made in a week.


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## Holland73 (Jan 5, 2004)

, Satori!

I am sorry to hear about all the trauma (car accident) and drama (6 years olds and messes) going on in your life right now.

Just wanted to give you a







!


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beanma* 
gosh y'all are harshing on satori! did you see in her post where she said she hurt her back in a car accident on the 21st? she's a single mom with a messy 6 yr old and a baby. well maybe i wouldn't be able to keep tabs on my 6 yr old either if i was laid up in bed with a bad back. she has a whole thread about the accident elsewhere. cut her some slack!

It's not about being harsh, or cutting her some slack. She's said that it's her 6 year old that's the problem. I think looking at those pictures, and the kinds of stuff that are still laying around the house, it's not just the 6 year old that's the problem. That's what people are trying to say.

And at any rate, if she's laid up in bed with a bad back and no one to help her care for herself or her kids, a messy house is the least of her worries, and she's going to have to just set it aside (and not blame the 6 year old either) until she can actually DO something about it.

She didn't make mention that she's incapable of doing anything. She didn't say that she just wanted to vent. To me, that means that even if she can't do something about it nownownow she's wanting things to do once she can actually do something about it.

In which case, MY advice still stands. Lose as much unnecessary stuff as you can, even if you "might" need it "someday" (and yes, I very personally know how hard this is to do). If there's things that you cannot afford to keep space-wise but that you MUST hold on to, then seriously think about making a small financial sacrifice to store them elsewhere (and beg/plead/cajole friends into helping you get them there). Pragmatically, the less stuff you have in your house, the less you have to pick up if your kid throws everything across the room. And start assigning chores, slowly at first, to both yourself and each kid according to their ability.

But if you're bedridden, for pete's sake, there's absolutely no point in getting upset about things when you cannot physically do anything at all about it. It doesn't do anyone any good to blame it all on the 6 year old, or to kick yourself because you can't do everything all at once when you are physically incapable of doing so (and even if you ARE, it's not the best idea). You can only do what you can do, when you can do it.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

No, many of the posters in this thread are choosing to (a) disbelieve Satori and (b) be condescending in the way they talk to her about their disbelief.

It is possible to question who made the mess without being unpleasant. (Some people have). But the overall tone of this thread is rude and confrontational.. We wouldn't show our kids such a lack of compassion, would we?

I mentioned one possibility that no one has acknowledged, which is that if you spend 2-3 hours a day picking up the messes a 6 year old makes and remakes, you don't have time to declutter or organize. I think it possible to believe these two things are both true: Satori's child has some serious behavior problems and that because of this (and the other factors in her life) the clutter has built up.


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## NoHiddenFees (Mar 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dechen* 
No, many of the posters in this thread are choosing to (a) disbelieve Satori and (b) be condescending in the way they talk to her about their disbelief.

It is possible to question who made the mess without being unpleasant. (Some people have). But the overall tone of this thread is rude and confrontational.. We wouldn't show our kids such a lack of compassion, would we?









:

*It is not a moral failing to have something other than a spotless, anally organized and categorized home.* Some of us really are conceptually challenged when it comes to decluttering; I don't know where I'd be without DH get the ball rolling. There have been some good suggestions on this thread, but the attacks (and psychiatric diagnosis -- wtf?) are really uncalled for, especially in light of the other factors.


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## LouCostello (Sep 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dechen* 
Satori's child has some serious behavior problems and that because of this (and the other factors in her life) the clutter has built up.

I honestly think Satori's DD's behavior is learned. Which is pretty great news. It requires that Satori, with the help of friends and family, declutter the house and get the apartment to a point where she can lead by example.

I don't think I am condescending to Satori at all. Straightforward, yes. Condescention, no way.

As someone else said, she came her for advice, not strictly to vent. She layed the blame squarely on her DD's shoulders. If all that stuff wasn't crammed into such a small space, then her DD would not have the opportunity to overturn a computer monitor (which is oviously not in use, because Satori posted the picture on the internet), remove a lampshade, stack container upon container, etc...

I absolutely stand by my advice to seek help for depression. Those pictures scream "HELP!".


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## FancyPants (Dec 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NoHiddenFees* 







:

*It is not a moral failing to have something other than a spotless, anally organized and categorized home.*











Thank you!

When did "disorderly = candidate for the loony bin" become the mantra here at MDC? The shaming people get when they disclose a disorderly house.







: You'd think they were beating their kids with crowbars.

"Depression" ??? - sorry those pictures may scream "we are currently overwhelmed here" but wow. Just wow.


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## LouCostello (Sep 16, 2005)

Quote:

When did "disorderly = candidate for the loony bin" become the mantra here at MDC?
A little over dramatic, do you think? No one said "loony bin". I certainly did not. Since when does depression = offensive term for psychiatric care? I did not suggest psychotherapy, pyschoanalysis, anti-depressants, etc... I suggested she seek help for depression and I absolutely stand by that suggestion.

The OP and her kids are living in a pretty dangerous environment, IMO. She's not in the best physcial condition because of the accident. What if she tripped and fell? What if the baby pulled up on one of the many boxes and they tumbled to the floor? Satori said her daughter is pretty destructive; what if she (DD) climbed that bookshelf, as kids are prone to do?

Clutter and some disorganization are one thing. My house is certainly not spotless. I am not at all saying her apartment needs to be spotless. You should see my laundry room right this minute. It's atrocious. But it's not unsafe.

And someone else made the remark about speaking to one's children...I am straightforward with my kids. I tell them the natural consequences of their actions. I do it with their safety and best interest at heart. I think it's pretty condescending to expect grown-ups (this is a grown-up board, after all) to speak to other grown-ups in a way that's reserved for a 6yo.


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

As a disorganized person who has lived in tiny spaces, I must give Satori a big









It's hard especially when you have a ton of stuff. Satori, can you enlist some friends to help declutter and then have a large garbage can and a dontate can? If you have help, I bet it would go by pretty quick and it wouldn't feel so overwhelming. -I am projecting here, that is how I feel when it is time to declutter.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.


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## Satori (Jan 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom* 
Some of that doesn't look like kid mess to me. Is that a vacuum cleaner and boxes of unopened tinsel in the room? (or is that a stack of computer paper?) Those stacked plastic bins with stuff on top of them? The stroller? (or is that a car seat? Can you put the stroller in the hallway or in the car trunk if you have one? In the bedroom? Hall closet?

I find my kids are better at not doing crazy things if there is some rhyme and reason to begin with. Some of it can't be helped when you live in a small home, but purging frequently helps me.

That's kid mess. Yes she lugged out the vacuum because it was in her way as she wanted into the closet trying to get something out that she wasn't supposed to have anyway. I fully owned up to the xmas stuff being my fault because I was PUTTING THEM AWAY while she was sleeping. The bins were neatly packed and ready to be hauled off to storage and she dug into the top one which is why its open. I don't own a stroller, its a car seat your seeing, I brought it in to wash the cover since she spilled her drink on it in the car. I haven't had time to drag the cover to the laundry mat to wash it and she's been dragging the seat all over the house playing with it. This is a kid who can move a portable clothes washer easier then I can, moving vacuums and car seats is not a big deal to her (although you'd think her shoes weighed a ton trying to get her to pick them up)

Quote:


If the OP's house is like mine (and gee, sure looks like it is! ) you have to go into the room where the child is sleeping to put away the clothing. So you might perpetually have a cycle where you wait to fold until she's asleep, then go to bed, then she wakes up and trashes your folding project, perhaps before you're even out of bed!

yep and she's often a light sleeper so opening a dresser will wake her up. I'm thinking maybe its time to move the dressers into the living room.

Quote:

Okay, I'm a Quaker and here's what we do. Don't know if it's typical of Quakers or not...

If my dd's made a mess (she's 6, btw), I've explained to her that she has ___ minutes in which to clean it up. Set a reasonable time for the mess in question. If it's not cleaned up in ____ minutes, the items remaining out will get put away in the closet by me and will not be taken down for____ (set a period of time). They will be returned, I reassure her, but they definitely will be removed by someone, either by me or by her.

So far, this has worked. I also explain the why of picking up: if blocks are left on our wood floor, they could cause someone to step on them and hurt their feet or skid and hurt themselves; if dolls are left out, they could be broken or stepped on, and so on. At the same time, I pick up after myself too, so it's not just a case of Mean Dictatorial Order-Givin', Butt-Sittin' Mom.
Done that many many times, it ends in my literally dragging her across the floor as she holds on to the item for dear life while I take it away. Its one on the reasons I save cleaning until she's asleep.

Quote:

It sounds like you are focusing extra stuff on her that isn't fair. It's totally out of line for her to destroy your folded laundry. OTOH, why is folded laundry sitting out in the first place, or why isn't she expected to put it away once you fold it?

Because I can't put it away while she's sleeping without waking her up. Getting her to do it during the day, well, I've had root canals that were more fun and less stressful then getting her to help around the house.

Quote:

The pictures you've shown show surface kid mess. But underneath it is adult disorganization and clutter, unless your 6 year old was dragging the vacuum around and leaving it in the room, and threw a bunch of storage tubs in there and is responsible for having large, bulky items (like the carseat) laying around--which could very well be true, as in she drags them out of whatever closed door you've put them behind, I'm *not* discounting the possibility. You're not going to get rid of the kid mess without solving the underlying problem. It's VERY hard to do in a small apartment. And storage is not free in most places. But in the four months it took me to process my stuff and give myself a breather, that $20/mo. was a lifesaver just so that I could have some peace and the rest of my family could breathe as well.
See above. Although I did originally have the car seats stacked on the freezer next to the totes. She took them down to get into the totes. I have a storage unit and since Santa came she up and packed up all her toys and wants them to go there so tomorrow morning I'm hauling it off before she can change her mind! (we've been out of town for a couple days and just got back tonight or I would have done it sooner)

Quote:

I think it's time that your 6 year old had some chores. It is inappropriate of her to destroy work that you've done. It is not wrong for you to give her some consequences for doing something like that. However, please understand that if that is the environment she's seen all her life, she is not going to 'see' what needs to be done to make things look neater. And it may also be part of her nature

I have been trying to get this child to do chores since she was a toddler and she's flat out refused no matter what the consequences. Tells me either she's a princess and princesses don't clean up there messes or tells me to go get the cleaning lady to do it! We had someone to help keep things from looking like a bomb went off when I was working and could afford it (we haven't had someone in over a year but its never been this bad!). She thinks its her god given right to have a maid and my mom is literally a neat freak so she does know what clean is. She just freaks out when you start cleaning.

Quote:

I'm not saying your house is a pit. Not by a long shot. But to be honest, I see more things in there that an adult should correct than six year old wild rumpus mess. And if it's really starting to bother you, then you should not only get tough with her stuff, but also with yours. I know how hard/nervewracking that is to do though. Damn near overwhelming.

It sure feels like a pit! It is overwhelming and I I've just wanted to cry looking at it so when Santa asked what I wanted for xmas I told him a day with a professional organizer! I got my wish and she's coming on Tuesday









Quote:

Not being mean here, but just taking a quick look at those pictures. 4 (maybe more??) boxes of Christmas ornaments lying around, an old computer monitor, loose rolls of toilet paper, empty ziploc containers, extra large box of twinkies on the couch, many plants, watering can (can't you bring the plants to the sink?), empty priority postage boxes, luggage rack, tinsel, empty plastic bags. All of these things could go. Today
The monitor is sitting there because I can't lift it, a friend put it there a couple weeks ago and was supposed to put it in the back of my closet before he left and forgot. The TP is because I can not get this child to understand its find to use TP for your nose but leave the darn roll in the bathroom! She gets a new roll out every time she wipes her nose. The Twinkies is not Twinkies, its the Twinkie baking pan grandma got me to make gluten free Twinkies for xmas. It doesn't have a home yet because I have yet to open the box and wash the pan and put it away. No I can't bring the plants to the sink, you can't see it on this side but there HUGE and need to be trimmed. Not quite sure what your thinking is a luggage rack but I do get your point.

Quote:

I have lived in really messy houses, so definitely BTDT. But, it is unreasonable to expect your 6y/o child to keep things clean and orderly if you don't. I doubt that she can reach to haphazardly throw things on top of the large white storage bin in the second pic, that she can freecycle the cream-colored bouncing chair in the second pic or the brightly-colored, mirrored toy in the first; both seem very age inappropriate for a 6 y/o.
Throw?







I've busted her CLIMBING up there in 10 seconds flat to get something I've put up there. She grabs a chair to get on the freezer then on to the bins where she can reach up there. I'm still using the bouncy with my 7 mo old who has developmental delays and doesn't even roll over. Its kinda handy for things like taking showers and doing dishes









Quote:

If you saw pictures of my house, you'd see adult clutter. Why? I spend so much time doing damage control and cleaning up after little Ms. Destructo that time to declutter is worth more than gold.
ditto, by the time I've got 1 problem taken care of she's created 3 more!

Quote:

If we want clean clothes to wear we have to wash them, fold them, and put them away.
That's another problem, keeping them PUT AWAY. I can think of 5 different times this week she's taken all the clothes out of the dresser and out of the closet because she didn't want them there and finally decided they belonged in the toy dresser (she has 2 of those 3 drawer plastic things you can buy at Wal-Mart for a toy box to make it easier to keep her toys organized, dress up clothes in 1 drawer, games in another, ect) after leaving them all over my bed and hers.

Quote:

Those rooms look really dangerous.

How can you expect a six year old to care about her home and belongings if her mother doesn't care either? I see lots of expensive items tossed about and I doubt very seriously it was your daughter's doing.

A mess like that is certainly isolating. When was the last time either of you had company?

I'm going to take a shot in the very cluttered dark and say that you are experiencing symptoms of depression. I hope you get help; your family shouldn't have to live like that and neither should you.
I see your new to MDC so I'll cut you some slack for such a rude post. I DO CARE and I don't see any expensive items in those pictures. I haven't gotten anything expensive in ages because I have a child who breaks things a lot.

Quote:

i'm wondering, though, if your dd does this all the time if something else is going on with her. you said you were having to undecorate the tree at night because she would mess that up, too. that's a bit extreme. do you think it's just a personality thing or maybe a sensory issue? my dd1 will tell me when i clean up her room, "i LIKE it messy. i'm going to make it all messy again!" but i think she really likes it neat and plays in it more when i've picked up. she would totally not want to help clean up, but i don't think she would actively thwart my efforts to do so. maybe she resents the amount of time you spend cleaning and not playing with her? you said santa was going to help you with housekeeping in the new year. maybe that will help some.

She does have sensory issues but hasn't qualified for OT since she was 4 and exited EI. My dd is the same way, she creates these huge disasters but she actively thwarts my attempts to clean but yet she seems to enjoy playing in a clean space even more. I have repeatedly explained to her that if she stopped trashing the house and helped me clean up messes I would have a lot more time to spend with her. After the cleaning lady comes I swear I'm going to be the grinch and go though the house every night and what's left out automatically goes into storage for a while.

Quote:

maybe you could do some problem-solving with your dd? tell her how you feel when it's all messed up and cluttered and how you really can't deal with it and elicit her ideas of how to cope. you know the drill from "how to talk..."? make a list of all your ideas and all her ideas and ALL ideas are fair game so if she says, "throw it all aroud the room" you write down "throw it all around the room". when you've exhausted all of both of your ideas then you each get to strike through ideas until you can come up with some solutions that you are both willing to try. i find that sometimes doing this kind of problem-solving where i really write down my dd's ideas makes her feel empowered and listened to. if i'm not careful, though, she can feel patronized, so i have to approach it with an open mind and heart and squelch those ulterior motives.
Done that multiple times, she thinks its a grand idea in theory but when trying to put it into practice... like I said above, I've had root canals that were more pleasant.

Quote:

Also, if all of that mess was made by your 6-year-old, does she do it while you're there watching? I don't understand how she could have time to do this while you're not watching her.
Oh I don't know, taking a 5 minute shower? Changing the babies diaper, feeding the baby, making dinner, doing laundry, taking a pee? I can't keep her in my direct line of sight every second of the day and it only takes seconds for her to create disasters. I dread having to take a shower when she's awake because I know I'm going to come out to a mess and the only way she'd stay in the bathroom with me is if I hand cuffed her in there. Personally I think I should be able to leave a 6 yr old alone in the room for 5 minutes and not have to worry she's going to destroy it. I let her do a fun activity like playing a computer game or something and pray that she won't burn down the house while I do what ever as fast as possible.

Quote:

-put the laundry away right after folding; if that's not possible, store it temporarily in a closed container or put it on a surface the kid is less likely to want to use. The idea is to give her no excuse to get into the laundry.
-have the kid spend as little time as possible alone in a room so that she can't make a big mess before somebody calls her on it.
I've left it folded in the laundry basket but that just seems to invite her to dump it out so she can pretend the basket is a boat or something. She has no intrests in the basket unless it has clothes in it it seems. I try to keep my eye on her every second possible but I can't watch her every second of the day.

Quote:

I hope so. Her kid must have Herculean strength in order to move all the stuff I see in those pictures.

There a potted plant teetering very dangerously on the edge of the table. It looks like it was painted with love by little 6yo hands. Either it hurts someone physically when it lands on a head or a foot, or her DD's feelings get hurt because her mother couldn't be bothered to put it up.
My my my, arn't we just ASSuming everything? This is a kid who moves my washing machine to get into the cupboard I blocked with it to keep her out of it. The plant is NOT teetering, its several inches from the edge and its a 3in plastic pot that I had placed on the bedroom dresser and she decided that day it belonged in the living room and was trying to get me to allow her to bring it with us on our trip.

Quote:

I doubt that entire mess was made in a week.
It was.

Quote:

She didn't make mention that she's incapable of doing anything. She didn't say that she just wanted to vent. To me, that means that even if she can't do something about it nownownow she's wanting things to do once she can actually do something about it.
yes I was venting, I was frustrated, in tears and at my wits end after a bad week. Perhaps vents need to be marked such? I do appreciate the advice but it was mostly a post to keep me from blowing my lid from frustration.

Quote:

I mentioned one possibility that no one has acknowledged, which is that if you spend 2-3 hours a day picking up the messes a 6 year old makes and remakes, you don't have time to declutter or organize. I think it possible to believe these two things are both true: Satori's child has some serious behavior problems and that because of this (and the other factors in her life) the clutter has built up.
Exactly! and yes she does has some serious behavior problems, I lost it and decided I can't deal with her any more and hauled her butt down to mental health for help last week. She's a classic ADHD kid and she's got an authority problem too, I've done every thing I can think of, diet (which has helped a lot with the raging tantrums) different discipline techniques, all kinds of stuff and NOTHING works on this kid. I'm desperate for help with her and I've accepted that for MY mental health its time to medicate her. She's made my life very difficult the last 6 years, people say I must have my hands full with the baby but the truth is the baby is soooooo easy to care for compared to my 6 yr old! She takes 10x times more energy to deal with and the baby is high needs to that's saying a lot!

Quote:

*It is not a moral failing to have something other than a spotless, anally organized and categorized home.*
According to my mother it is!

Quote:

Some of us really are conceptually challenged when it comes to decluttering; I don't know where I'd be without DH get the ball rolling.
I'll freely admit to being conceptually challenged but this is out of control even to me.

Quote:

There have been some good suggestions on this thread, but the attacks (and psychiatric diagnosis -- wtf?) are really uncalled for, especially in light of the other factors.
I can see how someone might think I'm depressed but I'm not. Frustrated? yes Stressed out? yes depressed? no.

Quote:

If all that stuff wasn't crammed into such a small space, then her DD would not have the opportunity to overturn a computer monitor (which is obviously not in use, because Satori posted the picture on the internet), remove a lampshade, stack container upon container, etc...
Overturn a computer monitor? huh? Its not overturned, the lamp never had a shade because I haven't found one yet. The bins were and with the exception of the top bin still are neatly stacked.

Quote:

I absolutely stand by my advice to seek help for depression. Those pictures scream "HELP!".
They scream help me get my 6 yr old under control (I really don't need any comments from the TCS'ers out there)

Quote:

The OP and her kids are living in a pretty dangerous environment, IMO. She's not in the best physcial condition because of the accident. What if she tripped and fell? What if the baby pulled up on one of the many boxes and they tumbled to the floor? Satori said her daughter is pretty destructive; what if she (DD) climbed that bookshelf, as kids are prone to do?
The baby pulling up?







She'll be 7 months old on the 1st and she doesn't even roll over! I think we got a while before she stands up. (and yes she has a million Dr's, its part of her syndrome so no I'm not neglecting her as I'm sure your going to suggest) My 6 yr old has climbed the shelves and we won't go there..

Quote:

It's hard especially when you have a ton of stuff. Satori, can you enlist some friends to help declutter and then have a large garbage can and a dontate can? If you have help, I bet it would go by pretty quick and it wouldn't feel so overwhelming. -I am projecting here, that is how I feel when it is time to declutter.
I'm going to do what I can while dd is still gung ho on pack up stuff and the organization lady will be here on Tuesday to get everything else taken care of









All that said, I'm going to bed! I've had about 3 hours sleep the last 3 nights and I'm dead tired!


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## vermonttaylors (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Satori* 
I want the nice polite kid who cleans too!)

Ooh, send me the formula when you find it!


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LouCostello* 
I honestly think Satori's DD's behavior is learned.

And you've come to that conclusion....how?







:

My dd has SID (as Satori has mentioned her dd has). My dd does not exhibit the kind of behavior Satori has described on this thread, but she has had/has some other extreme behaviors (violent meltdowns, for example). LOTS of people assume it is "learned", and if only I would parent/respond the "right" way, she wouldn't act/have acted that way. Family, friends, people online. But you know what? They're wrong.

Satori, I wish I lived closer so I could help you out.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

I figured most of the mess *was* caused by the six year old in question, but I wanted to wait and let Satori clarify. A determined six year old is strong enough and clever enough to do amazing things.

Ah, SID. My dd has has sensory issues up the wazoo.

I think most people who haven't experienced kids with these sort of differences have no idea what they're like, and what it is like to parent them. I almost never post about the challenges I face with dd because I really don't want to hear ridiculous lectures that miss the mark entirely.

I have cabinet locks on just about everything - not because of danger, but because that is the only way to keep things IN the cabinets.







Now dd is mastering the art of moving chairs round to reach high places, and I have to decide if I'm going to add more cabinet locks or rearrange our cabinets and pray.







I fear the idea of what she'll capable of in 3 years.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I do not think a messy home is a sign of morality or lack there of.

Purging and decluttering can help children as well adults. Esp if children are destructive or if adults have health issues.

Maybe getting a couple of firends to help pare down would limit the mess the child could make, and make it easier for the child to make fewer messes.

If there is less stuff, there's less opportunity. You can then have smaller messes to deal with.

But I don't think having a child with issues or having adulthealth issues makes someone bad or whatever is being read into this.


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## lisalou (May 20, 2005)

I have to be honest I think this was the age for me when my mother gave up on my room and just demanded we keep common areas neat. Not overly AP but at least we had our area to be messy in and then knew we'd have to pick up after ourselves should it spill over. And that was done by the threat of whatever was not being picked up would end up in the garbage. I think I only lost one toy but still.

I sort of hate to advocate that sort of thing but I think your dd's assumption that princess' don't pick up after themselves or the princesses have cleaning ladies is one that needs to stop. Make sure you're not fostering this belief. Maybe when you had a cleaning lady you were putting off things as well?

Good luck with the organizer. It seems like that would be a good time to make a clean sweep for your own organization and dd's and then enforce through natural consequences for both of you.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

satori,







again. i'm glad you came back to this thread to address people's ASSumptions because it really needed doing.

i am clutter challenged and it really is not the end of the world or the sign of somebody who needs mental help. abraham lincoln for one had an extremely messy desk with papers piled one on top of another







. people seem to have no tolerance for clutter these days and i admit i would rather live w/o it myself, but just 'cause i've got things junked up a little doesn't mean i'm going to end up being one of the crazy cat ladies who has little paths through her house and cat feces all around. yikes! not saying anybody on this thread said that, but sometimes i get that vibe. while i'm definitely not anal about clutter and maybe can tolerate more than some folks i definitely do reach a point where it becomes intolerable. i think, though, that people just have different needs for neatness and to not recognize that is to be intolerant. sometimes true squalor can be a sign of mental illness, but there would be other signs, too.

i think if a poster says her kid does something we've got to start out with the ASSumption that she knows what she's talking about and not start making ASSumptions that it's her fault.

satori, maybe a thread in "special needs" or "gentle discipline" or the decluttering forum would get you more support.








.


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## LouCostello (Sep 16, 2005)

I'm not as new to MDC as you think I am. Why did you come here for advice if all you were going to do is "Yes, but..."? I see your accident was a week ago and the monitor has been there for 2 weeks. A week is plenty of time to move it.

I still do not believe that is a kid's mess. That is why I think your DD's behavior is learned. And if she does have behavioral issues that lead her to destroy your home, then that stuff should have been outta there a year ago.

Your baby isn't rolling over, but she is a part of your family, no? If your DD has access to ALL that stuff and is throwing it about willy nilly, then your baby is in danger of getting hurt.

I doubt your 6yo heads to the flea market and amasses floor to celing stuff. The stuff is there in the first place. You said you live in a very small space.

If you have all the answers, which it seems you do, then why bother asking for advice?


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Satori* 
That's kid mess. Yes she lugged out the vacuum because it was in her way as she wanted into the closet trying to get something out that she wasn't supposed to have anyway. I fully owned up to the xmas stuff being my fault because I was PUTTING THEM AWAY while she was sleeping. The bins were neatly packed and ready to be hauled off to storage and she dug into the top one which is why its open. I don't own a stroller, its a car seat your seeing, I brought it in to wash the cover since she spilled her drink on it in the car. I haven't had time to drag the cover to the laundry mat to wash it and she's been dragging the seat all over the house playing with it. This is a kid who can move a portable clothes washer easier then I can, moving vacuums and car seats is not a big deal to her (although you'd think her shoes weighed a ton trying to get her to pick them up)

yep and she's often a light sleeper so opening a dresser will wake her up. I'm thinking maybe its time to move the dressers into the living room.

Done that many many times, it ends in my literally dragging her across the floor as she holds on to the item for dear life while I take it away. Its one on the reasons I save cleaning until she's asleep.

Because I can't put it away while she's sleeping without waking her up. Getting her to do it during the day, well, I've had root canals that were more fun and less stressful then getting her to help around the house.

See above. Although I did originally have the car seats stacked on the freezer next to the totes. She took them down to get into the totes. I have a storage unit and since Santa came she up and packed up all her toys and wants them to go there so tomorrow morning I'm hauling it off before she can change her mind! (we've been out of town for a couple days and just got back tonight or I would have done it sooner)

I have been trying to get this child to do chores since she was a toddler and she's flat out refused no matter what the consequences. Tells me either she's a princess and princesses don't clean up there messes or tells me to go get the cleaning lady to do it! We had someone to help keep things from looking like a bomb went off when I was working and could afford it (we haven't had someone in over a year but its never been this bad!). She thinks its her god given right to have a maid and my mom is literally a neat freak so she does know what clean is. She just freaks out when you start cleaning.

It sure feels like a pit! It is overwhelming and I I've just wanted to cry looking at it so when Santa asked what I wanted for xmas I told him a day with a professional organizer! I got my wish and she's coming on Tuesday









The monitor is sitting there because I can't lift it, a friend put it there a couple weeks ago and was supposed to put it in the back of my closet before he left and forgot. The TP is because I can not get this child to understand its find to use TP for your nose but leave the darn roll in the bathroom! She gets a new roll out every time she wipes her nose. The Twinkies is not Twinkies, its the Twinkie baking pan grandma got me to make gluten free Twinkies for xmas. It doesn't have a home yet because I have yet to open the box and wash the pan and put it away. No I can't bring the plants to the sink, you can't see it on this side but there HUGE and need to be trimmed. Not quite sure what your thinking is a luggage rack but I do get your point.

Throw?







I've busted her CLIMBING up there in 10 seconds flat to get something I've put up there. She grabs a chair to get on the freezer then on to the bins where she can reach up there. I'm still using the bouncy with my 7 mo old who has developmental delays and doesn't even roll over. Its kinda handy for things like taking showers and doing dishes









ditto, by the time I've got 1 problem taken care of she's created 3 more!

That's another problem, keeping them PUT AWAY. I can think of 5 different times this week she's taken all the clothes out of the dresser and out of the closet because she didn't want them there and finally decided they belonged in the toy dresser (she has 2 of those 3 drawer plastic things you can buy at Wal-Mart for a toy box to make it easier to keep her toys organized, dress up clothes in 1 drawer, games in another, ect) after leaving them all over my bed and hers.

I see your new to MDC so I'll cut you some slack for such a rude post. I DO CARE and I don't see any expensive items in those pictures. I haven't gotten anything expensive in ages because I have a child who breaks things a lot.

She does have sensory issues but hasn't qualified for OT since she was 4 and exited EI. My dd is the same way, she creates these huge disasters but she actively thwarts my attempts to clean but yet she seems to enjoy playing in a clean space even more. I have repeatedly explained to her that if she stopped trashing the house and helped me clean up messes I would have a lot more time to spend with her. After the cleaning lady comes I swear I'm going to be the grinch and go though the house every night and what's left out automatically goes into storage for a while.

Done that multiple times, she thinks its a grand idea in theory but when trying to put it into practice... like I said above, I've had root canals that were more pleasant.

Oh I don't know, taking a 5 minute shower? Changing the babies diaper, feeding the baby, making dinner, doing laundry, taking a pee? I can't keep her in my direct line of sight every second of the day and it only takes seconds for her to create disasters. I dread having to take a shower when she's awake because I know I'm going to come out to a mess and the only way she'd stay in the bathroom with me is if I hand cuffed her in there. Personally I think I should be able to leave a 6 yr old alone in the room for 5 minutes and not have to worry she's going to destroy it. I let her do a fun activity like playing a computer game or something and pray that she won't burn down the house while I do what ever as fast as possible.

I've left it folded in the laundry basket but that just seems to invite her to dump it out so she can pretend the basket is a boat or something. She has no intrests in the basket unless it has clothes in it it seems. I try to keep my eye on her every second possible but I can't watch her every second of the day.

My my my, arn't we just ASSuming everything? This is a kid who moves my washing machine to get into the cupboard I blocked with it to keep her out of it. The plant is NOT teetering, its several inches from the edge and its a 3in plastic pot that I had placed on the bedroom dresser and she decided that day it belonged in the living room and was trying to get me to allow her to bring it with us on our trip.

It was.

yes I was venting, I was frustrated, in tears and at my wits end after a bad week. Perhaps vents need to be marked such? I do appreciate the advice but it was mostly a post to keep me from blowing my lid from frustration.

Exactly! and yes she does has some serious behavior problems, I lost it and decided I can't deal with her any more and hauled her butt down to mental health for help last week. She's a classic ADHD kid and she's got an authority problem too, I've done every thing I can think of, diet (which has helped a lot with the raging tantrums) different discipline techniques, all kinds of stuff and NOTHING works on this kid. I'm desperate for help with her and I've accepted that for MY mental health its time to medicate her. She's made my life very difficult the last 6 years, people say I must have my hands full with the baby but the truth is the baby is soooooo easy to care for compared to my 6 yr old! She takes 10x times more energy to deal with and the baby is high needs to that's saying a lot!

According to my mother it is!

I'll freely admit to being conceptually challenged but this is out of control even to me.

I can see how someone might think I'm depressed but I'm not. Frustrated? yes Stressed out? yes depressed? no.

Overturn a computer monitor? huh? Its not overturned, the lamp never had a shade because I haven't found one yet. The bins were and with the exception of the top bin still are neatly stacked.

They scream help me get my 6 yr old under control (I really don't need any comments from the TCS'ers out there)

The baby pulling up?







She'll be 7 months old on the 1st and she doesn't even roll over! I think we got a while before she stands up. (and yes she has a million Dr's, its part of her syndrome so no I'm not neglecting her as I'm sure your going to suggest) My 6 yr old has climbed the shelves and we won't go there..

I'm going to do what I can while dd is still gung ho on pack up stuff and the organization lady will be here on Tuesday to get everything else taken care of









All that said, I'm going to bed! I've had about 3 hours sleep the last 3 nights and I'm dead tired!


what are tcs'ers?

I am trying to figure out if it has something to do with medication or spanking....


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

Taking Children Seriously. you can google.


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

okay...thanks.


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## *~Member~* (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:

I still do not believe that is a kid's mess. That is why I think your DD's behavior is learned. And if she does have behavioral issues that lead her to destroy your home, then that stuff should have been outta there a year ago.
I have to step in here. I have an Autistic 3 year old and the mess Satori pictured my 3 year old can do that same kind of damage in about 15 minutes if I let her. I clean my house 3-4 times DAILY and I'll have to get some before and after pictures for everyone. Thank God we have a basement where everything is stored now but it was not always the case

*HUGS for Satori*


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

Quote:

That's another problem, keeping them PUT AWAY. I can think of 5 different times this week she's taken all the clothes out of the dresser and out of the closet because she didn't want them there and finally decided they belonged in the toy dresser (she has 2 of those 3 drawer plastic things you can buy at Wal-Mart for a toy box to make it easier to keep her toys organized, dress up clothes in 1 drawer, games in another, ect) after leaving them all over my bed and hers.
Buy locks. My DD had the same problem. We had to put locks on all the closets (including mine), and dressers to keep her out.


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## Satori (Jan 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amylcd* 
Buy locks. My DD had the same problem. We had to put locks on all the closets (including mine), and dressers to keep her out.

My question is how?? Both dressers belonged to my deceased great grandmothers and are well built antiques and I'm worried about destroying them. Is there some way to lock them without padlocking them? She's already messed up the finishes but I don't want to be putting in visible holes.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Do you think your 6 yr old might be bored? Is she autistic?

I'll go back to your orginal question. If it were me, I would, simultaneously, purge and organize, and try to get to the root of the child's destruction, which would probably take a while.

I'm sure it's difficult. It's probably going to help some to get the area in order with the organizer. Try to set it up in such a way that it won't take 3 hours a day to tidy, if her challenges prevent her from not doing what she's doing.

Seriously, when I purge and declutter, everything in the house seems to flow better. (At least for a time. lol) With growing children, it's an ongoing process. They outgrow things, stuff gets broken, they lose interest in some toys or other supplies etc.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

We had to jury rig stuff for quite awhile. I ended up glue-gunning a tight buckle strap to two non-marking foam sticky things (they're supposed to be used for hanging pictures and hooks without damaging the wall) for some drawers. Some we did finally break down and put drawer locks in (the kind that attach to the inside of the drawer that a lot of people use for drawers and cabinets in the kitchen). One Step Ahead sells adhesive drawer locks, which have stood up to 3 kids on the prowl for the last 3 years.









It's very frustrating, because especially with dressers, they won't always work (hence the jury-rigging). I aimed for things that would hold up for 5 minutes and would be cheap/easy to replace (and I always made/had extras). I'm not sure if the drawer locks would work for a six-year old (though even I still get frustrated/annoyed trying to open them, so *maybe*).


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## kittn (Mar 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Satori* 
My question is how?? Both dressers belonged to my deceased great grandmothers and are well built antiques and I'm worried about destroying them. Is there some way to lock them without padlocking them? She's already messed up the finishes but I don't want to be putting in visible holes.

what does the dresser look like. the handles? give me an idea. I may be able to come up with something


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alisteal* 
I have to step in here. I have an Autistic 3 year old and the mess Satori pictured my 3 year old can do that same kind of damage in about 15 minutes if I let her. I clean my house 3-4 times DAILY and I'll have to get some before and after pictures for everyone. Thank God we have a basement where everything is stored now but it was not always the case

*HUGS for Satori*

Uh, huh. DD can do an amazing amount in a very short time when she's in the right mood to do so.

A previous poster said something about a child not being physically able to do some of these things. I have a 5-year-old nephew who has been able to push his bed across the room since just before his fourth birthday. The bed is a large bunk bed, and the floor is carpeted, not smooth. He has to work at it - but he can do it. He can also scale the bed, even with the ladder off, and pull the mattress off of the top bunk. Kids are capable of a lot more than we sometimes give them credit for.


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## LouCostello (Sep 16, 2005)

If there are behavioral issues with your DD, then don't accumulate more stuff than you have room to store. If the dressers can't be locked, then store them in a unit and buy something that can be locked and bolted to the wall.

Your DD may make the mess, but you have ultimate control of the situation. If it means getting a storage unit and getting down to the bare bones of your belongings, then so be it.

I am not trying to be mean or unsupportive. Not at all.

Best of luck to you.


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## LouCostello (Sep 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Kids are capable of a lot more than we sometimes give them credit for.

They certainly are. But kids don't bring all that stuff into a home in the first place. I don't think her DD is sitting idly by while Satori herself makes the mess. But I really do think that Satori is blaming her DD for a mess her DD did not ultimately cause.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)




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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LouCostello* 
If there are behavioral issues with your DD, then don't accumulate more stuff than you have room to store. If the dressers can't be locked, then store them in a unit and buy something that can be locked and bolted to the wall.

Your DD may make the mess, but you have ultimate control of the situation. If it means getting a storage unit and getting down to the bare bones of your belongings, then so be it.

I think this makes a lot of assumptions about Satori's situation. I could do all these things right now, if I needed to. Five years ago, I couldn't have bought a new dresser to save my life. I certainly couldn't have afforded to pay for outside storage. I also didn't have a car or a driver's license, so moving things around wasn't exactly straightforward.

I don't know if any of this applies to Satori, but I don't know that it doesn't, either.

Incidentally...dd could make my place look like that in about half an hour - we're a little over-cluttered, but there are plenty of legitimate things that she can get into (eg. dragging a chair over to open the closet where we keep brooms, Christmas decorations, cat litter, etc., etc., etc.) to wreak havoc on the house. I can't imagine what she'll be like by the time she's six. I can also remember my mom talking about nursing me while sitting on a chair against my brother's bedroom door, because if she nursed me for 10 minutes without supervising him, it would take easily an hour to clean up the mess. Some kids have a tremendous gift for turning things upside-down in short order.


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## Satori (Jan 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kittn* 
what does the dresser look like. the handles? give me an idea. I may be able to come up with something

The batteries in my camera died last night but I could swear I have a picture of the dressors so you can see what they look like. I'll look tonight because I would love to be able to limit her access to them.


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## Satori (Jan 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kittn* 
what does the dresser look like. the handles? give me an idea. I may be able to come up with something


Found a pic! Took it after our last major decluttering clean up a year ago.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...h/DSCF0233.jpg


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## Satori (Jan 30, 2003)

Since I'm sure no one believes I can clean my house this is what one of the corners looks like when clean when dd is not home to destroy it









http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...h/DSCF0267.jpg

thats this corner
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...h/DSCF0330.jpg


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## 3_opihi (Jan 10, 2003)

LOL, poor Satori. I do understand what you mean...I live in a teeny house and I have THREE kids who do that. It only takes a few things to get out of place and it looks like a bomb went off in my house.

A couple ideas - can you store those big rubbermaid bins anywhere else besides the living room? THose would be too tempting for my kids to get into and toss all over the house.

Also, try and get some locks for those big cabinets. If your dd is really as destructive as you say, it might be good to get locks for as much as you can.

It might help her to have her own little corner of stuff, if you can manage. Make it up like a special little space for her - a little corner with a small table and chair, some dolls or bears and books things that are special to her. If she can get into the habit of being mindful about caring for her OWN little space, then eventually you can move onto the bigger picture of her own house.

And lastly, and I'm saying this gently, because I'm going through it too - it's SO hard when you are on your own with a baby and a six year old. Do you think some of this might be acting out to get attention? Like I said, I say this gently, cause I am a single mama too, and I KNOW what it's like. Maybe try the above suggestion about her own little space and see how that works out. If she can feel special, and like she has purpose then she might calm down (not that she doesn't, but you know)

I work at an integrated preschooll, and one thing I do know about the sensory/autistic kids is that they do need focus...I don't want to say structure so much, but they need clearly organized, calm and defined spaces or else they can get totally out of control.

Sending a huge hug!!!


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## Satori (Jan 30, 2003)

3_opihi said:


> And lastly, and I'm saying this gently, because I'm going through it too - it's SO hard when you are on your own with a baby and a six year old. Do you think some of this might be acting out to get attention? Like I said, I say this gently, cause I am a single mama too, and I KNOW what it's like. [\QUOTE]
> 
> I've been waiting for someone to suggest this. She's been like this from day 1, she's just one of those intense kids who's more more more. You give her 100% and she demands 200% no matter what is it. Oddly enough today was a pretty good day ( I can't remember her last good day
> 
> ...


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## mothragirl (Sep 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Satori* 
Found a pic! Took it after our last major decluttering clean up a year ago.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...h/DSCF0233.jpg

she looks so cute and innocent








i would get rid of every single thing you don't need. we've been doing it because my toddler can create a giant mess too, and i'm sure as she gets older it will get worse. pick up every single item in your house and decide if you need it or not. figure out a way to lock everything else up. good luck!


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

I'm sorry you have been getting a lot of mean comments. Try to focus on some of the more understanding comments mixed in







I guess I can relate because I am sooo disorganized. My mom is a neatfreak, but it didn't rub off on me...which in some ways is good, others it's not so good.

About locks for the antique cabinets, I just got this catalog in the mail from One Step Ahead, no idea why- I've never bought anything from them lol. but anyway they have locks that apply with really strong self adhesive instead of screws







: That might work for locking up some of those drawers and cabinets. They have a version that's the typical plastic arm thingy you push down to open (dd could probably figure that one out though) and then they have MAGNETIC ones where you have a magnetic key that you could keep somewhere hidden from dd, and then when you need it you wave it in front of the spot where you installed the other matching magnet, and voila, the door opens!

I can't wait to show the catalog to hubby too. We need some of those- he drilled a hole through one of our kitchen cabinets installing a lock









Good luck!


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## 3_opihi (Jan 10, 2003)

Satori said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *3_opihi*
> ...


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom* 
Some of that doesn't look like kid mess to me. Is that a vaccum cleaner and boxes of unopened tinsel in the room? (or is that a stack of computer paper?) Those stacked plastic bins with stuff on top of them? The stroller? (or is that a car seat? Can you put the stroller in the hallway or in the car trunk if you have one? In the bedroom? Hall closet?

I find my kids are better at not doing crazy things if there is some ryhme and reason to begin with. Some of it can't be helped when you live in a small home, but purging frequently helps me.

I agree. A lot of that stuff looks like grownup mess. Also, the space just feels crowded. Can some decluttering take place?


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## 3happygirls (Feb 4, 2006)

Locks on the INSIDE of the dresser that allow it to be opened only a little bit, unless the child-lock thing is pushed down? My nephew was like a racoon at that age, too, so I won't be surprised if you say this won't work....just a thought, b/c I hadn't seen it posted.
Also, what about storing your dressers in closets and getting locks for those....REAL HIGH, so that even you have to get a stool and stand on your tip-toes to open. Something she can't reach with a chair. Then add a child lock handle to the door knob (?)


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## LouCostello (Sep 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Satori* 
Found a pic! Took it after our last major decluttering clean up a year ago.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...h/DSCF0233.jpg

And yet there's still a stack of clothes within reach of a kid who likes to throw clothes around.

Everyone on this thread wants to give "credit" to the six year old, yet no one wants to give credit to the ADULT who has ultimate control of the situation. Your child has behavioral issues and she's living in an environment where there's stuff everywhere. Even on your clean pics, there's still stuff everywhere. Your daughter didn't make the mess, she just rearranged it.

It seems like you would rather be "right" than even entertain the idea that you still have control in a very chaotic situation. As far as I'm concerned, my suggestions have been the most optimistic. You can still do something, you don't have to live in a mess everyday, your daughter won't destroy work you've done to wash clothes, put away toys, etc... I think that's much more encouraging than the idea that you're destined to live amongst boxes, carseats and computer monitors.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Lou, let it go. Your opinion has been stated. And re-stated.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

That is just cruel







:


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## Holland73 (Jan 5, 2004)

How sad that you would talk about someone like this.


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## scatterbrainedmom (May 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LouCostello* 
And yet there's still a stack of clothes within reach of a kid who likes to throw clothes around.

Everyone on this thread wants to give "credit" to the six year old, yet no one wants to give credit to the ADULT who has ultimate control of the situation. Your child has behavioral issues and she's living in an environment where there's stuff everywhere. Even on your clean pics, there's still stuff everywhere. Your daughter didn't make the mess, she just rearranged it.

It seems like you would rather be "right" than even entertain the idea that you still have control in a very chaotic situation. As far as I'm concerned, my suggestions have been the most optimistic. You can still do something, you don't have to live in a mess everyday, your daughter won't destroy work you've done to wash clothes, put away toys, etc... I think that's much more encouraging than the idea that you're destined to live amongst boxes, carseats and computer monitors.


maybe it's time you left this thread? I have been reading it and your comments are the only ones that I can remember because you are being so mean to her. maybe you don't feel that way, but you are coming off as rude and condescending.

To the OP. My son does this all the time. and we are not in a tiny house. He is a tasmanian devil. Locks work, but wear the keys on a lanyard around your neck. I have more ideas, but I am being called away.


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## Satori (Jan 30, 2003)

Has anyone tried these locks? http://www.toysrus.com/product/index...entPage=search


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

Wow, I really dont know what I would do in your situation!! I see your dd has some special needs, and that accounts for alot of her destruction. I agree with the other posters about just getting rid of as much stuff as possible. I imagine it must be so hard with a 6 yo and a baby with special needs, especially as a single mama. Kudos to you just for surviving!! And for wanting to better your situation. I have tried those magnet locks, and they work fantastic. They are inside the cabinet, so you dont see them from the outside. They do require some tools and instalation, so I dont know if you know how to work a power drill, but be aware that they do require some know-how. (DH had to put these in for me) I would also, as you are de-cluttering, keep your 6 yo with you at all times. I know this sounds next to impossible, but it would be necessary only for a short time. When you change baby, have her help you, or sit down next to you. When you feed baby, have her sit next to you and read a book. Take a shower together. Take her when you go potty. I think sometimes (and I dont know much about SID, so this may not apply to your dd at all) kids get into a pattern, and they just need to 'forget' that pattern. For instance, she is probably doing this for attention, or out of boredom, when you are busy doing other things. If you can consistently (like say for 2-3 weeks) give her other options of things to do when she feels this way, she will probably change her behavior. I hate to use the term 'conditioning' but yeah, kinda like that. I hope this helps, and I hope you are able to get some help as well! Good luck to you.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

satori, another







for you.

lou, if you actually read the posts you'll see that the picture you linked to is the one satori found from several years ago that showed her heirloom dressers which she is interested in putting drawer locks on w/o damaging. it wasn't a picture that was demostrating how she can put clothes away. i hardly think that picture looks like a "sty" anyway and belittling isn't helpful to anyone.

satori, the magnetic locks at the toysrus website might help. unfortunately i've never used them in my sty







or i'd offer my helpful experience with them ...


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LouCostello* 
And so has everyone else's. And so has Satori's excuses for living in a sty.

That was pretty rude. Judge much?


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## andreac (Jul 13, 2003)

Those magnet locks are awesome! My best friend has them in her kitchen and they are so handy!


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Satori* 
Has anyone tried these locks? http://www.toysrus.com/product/index...entPage=search


Ooh,those are the same ones I was talking about and I think cheaper than the One Step Ahead Catalog too! I haven't tried them yet but want to buy a whole bunch. We have the kind you have to drill in and after the hole dh left in my kitchen drawer I am not happy about the possibility of more accidental drill holes if ykwim









I can't see why these wouldn't work the same as the kind you have to drill. Give them a try- maybe someone has some locally on craigslist for real cheap?


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MommytoTwo* 
I would tell her to pick it up, if she didnt, for every item she trashed and refused to pick up I would take away a toy. If she still didnt do it I'd throw the toy in the garbage in front of her.

No, don't throw it away. I would tell her that since she refused to properly care for her things, they were being donated to someone who would be greatful for them and care for them as they should be.

Just saying that 'cause trashing good toys is so wasteful and all that....







:


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## aywilkes (Sep 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Finch* 
No, don't throw it away. I would tell her that since she refused to properly care for her things, they were being donated to someone who would be greatful for them and care for them as they should be.

Just saying that 'cause trashing good toys is so wasteful and all that....







:

ITA. I tell my son that his things will be donated to someone who will appreciate them. I have started a bag and when the bag is full, out goes the stuff. Of course his response was that he doesn't want all the toys he has anyway.







:


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## Satori (Jan 30, 2003)

All hail space bags!







I've made a dent in this mess over the last 2 days and now I've got my 1 and only lockable closet back! It was full of extra blankets for cold nights but dd was creating a nightmare with them so I locked them up. I managed to get my hands on some huge space bags for dirt cheap and vaccum packed them to hide in the back of the closet so now I can lock up a few things!







My moms took both kids for an hour so I could get rid of a bunch of stuff in that nice huge blue dumpster outside







Listed several things on freecycle too


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Well done, Satori!









I hope you feel at least a little better (I think you should feel a lot better!) now.







Every bit helps! I always feel so much lighter when I go on a donation/declutter purge. (though not enough to keep doing it as often as I should. ;>)


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Yeah for you!!


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## LouCostello (Sep 16, 2005)

Way to go!


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LouCostello* 
And so has Satori's excuses for living in a sty.

Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tigerchild* 
Well done, Satori!









I hope you feel at least a little better (I think you should feel a lot better!) now.







Every bit helps! I always feel so much lighter when I go on a donation/declutter purge. (though not enough to keep doing it as often as I should. ;>)









: ITA

So, I don't mind dust but I HATE clutter. Our living room has a hardwood floor and a lot of hanging toys (monkey bars, etc) but our ONLY furniture in this humongous room is a couch and a small table w/4 chairs. My kids can go hogwild and then when it's over I get out the broom & w/in minutes it's all put away.

Too, I seriously limit how many toy "tubs" I allow out of the basement at once; ie. now we have only 5 sets of toys upstairs. They're in a nook set next to the kitchen--which is also empty (on the floor) except for a Learning Tower.

Even our basement strives to look minimal...







freecycle.


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## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

Satori, I'm glad you have made some progress!

I have a 7yo on the autistic spectrum--he is high-functioning but I have had to "babyproof" for a large, strong, fully-mobile, intelligent child who just so happens to damage and destroy things all around without hesitation or much regret. He enjoys poking holes in walls, scratching things with tacks or nails, putting his feet on things even if they are delicate, and generally testing all materials to the breaking point. He balances dishes on his head and then says it is an "accident" when they fall. He just can't resist hitting the ceiling fan, or jumping across the room onto other furniture, and spitting and sloshing the bathwater EVERYWHERE... He dumps toys and laundry and walks on it without noticing. He forgets things the moment they drop from his hands and never notices them again. He falls on his siblings or steps on their fingers...

You know, he has made so much progress. I put so much effort into helping him--we have had this surreal level of child-proofing for several years. I remember him getting onto the top of the refrigerator, things like that. I don't encourage him to be very careless, clumsy, shortsighted, experimental, and all the other things that make him harder to care for alone than my three other children are together. I still have to check on him constantly if he is at the other end of the house or in the next room. Because he is almost always getting into something he shouldn't. No matter what positive options I offer--he doesn't take suggestions very well.

I know he is not messy and destructive because I set that example (he barely learns from example in that way anyhow unfortunately) or because I don't bother to set limits. He just isn't that moldable. The level of attention to prevent it all is generally truly impossible. Just impossible.

So I am sorry people point fingers at you. Sure you are responsible for your house and messes. But there are children who just pull every sense of order to pieces, day after day.

The best I am able to do is setting up tasks that have to be completed before the next thing. Like we can't eat treats because each person needs to get their meal dishes off the table first. Or we can't watch a video until this play area is cleaned up. Or get out another new thing until... The tasks have to be small.

It sounds like your dd doesn't even have a sense of pleasure in seeing things in right places. Does she? All my kids do seem to enjoy being able to find things, having space to play, knowing exactly where to put shoes and dirty clothes, knowing that each drawer will have just what they are looking for in it. I don't know what they would be doing if they didn't even want that.

When it is crazy with stuff, I have always gone minimalist. I pack up toys, though I don't find it is best as a threat/punishment toward them. I would have trouble living with those boxes stacked, and those plastic drawers. That feels so crowded, and like a potential topple-over.

I also try to lead some positive activities, read out loud, play playdough together, go to library, going on walks where we talk about stuff we see or anything that gets some good connection going. This has meant not cooking dinner and just eating something ultra-quick or skipping kids' baths sometimes, but I get to feeling I have to break the negative cycle with some very deliberate relaxed and positive stuff. I don't like to spend all my time on the frustrating stuff.

Well, I just found out my ds broke a window earlier. Just accidentally crashed his feet into it while standing on his head. SIGH and it is not the first--actually I think this is the fourth or fifth time he has cracked/broken a window in this house.


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

I'm glad you are making some progress









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Satori* 
Has anyone tried these locks? http://www.toysrus.com/product/index...entPage=search

I would suggest buying 1 or 2 first and test them out. Owen's grandpa put these on drawers on his entertainment center to keep Owen out (he has autism and would just open them and throw all the movies that are kept in there around the room. Constantly). He can now give it one good yank and open it. And he's only 3







Trust me, mama, I know what it's like to have that child just running around destroying everything in minutes. By the end of the day it looks like a tornado struck. I try hard to get it cleaned after he goes to bed but some days I'm just so darn tired I can't keep my eyes open another minute. That means the next day it's just worse and worse.

Hang in there, you're doing great!


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## *~Member~* (Feb 20, 2006)

Satori!! CONGRATS on making a dent

Quote:

And so has everyone else's. And so has Satori's excuses for living in a sty.
As for you I find some of the worst critics in life are those with things wrong in their own life. I pity you


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## majazama (Aug 2, 2003)

your DD sounds like a livewire, WOW! I can just feel it, in your posts! And I can tell you are exhusted too.









My suggestion is maybe to get her out in nature... that energy needs to be let out, and nature is the best place to do that, no messes that you have to clean up... take her for a nice walk every day to a park with a stream and lots of trees.

good thatyou are making decluttering progress.

p.s., she sounds like an indigo child


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## LouCostello (Sep 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Alisteal* 
Satori!! CONGRATS on making a dent

As for you I find some of the worst critics in life are those with things wrong in their own life. I pity you

I don't need your pity. But yeah, thanks anyway. All throughout this thread everyone was saying that Satori couldn't clean her apartment because of A, B, and C. I (and some others) said she could in fact clean her place. And she did. She still had some control over her situation. We all need to make changes in our lives, I am not exempt, nor did I ever say I was. Part of parenting is adjusting our worlds so our kids are safe. If a child is special needs or an "indigo", then there are some bigger adjustments. And that's okay. But to just throw in the towel and say "There's nothing I can do!!" Well, I think that's more negative than anything I could ever say.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majazama* 
My suggestion is maybe to get her out in nature... that energy needs to be let out, and nature is the best place to do that, no messes that you have to clean up... take her for a nice walk every day to a park with a stream and lots of trees.









:


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## MamaBug (Jun 13, 2003)

This thread is locked for mod review


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