# Claiming Our Neighborhoods



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Hi, I'd love to get input from others who live in neighborhoods where there are lots of nice and honest families, but a handful of kids who seem to get a thrill out of bullying and intimidating others.

My daughters and I love going to our local neighborhood playground, and we love the friendships we are building there -- but at the same time we've had some situations that I've kind of been at a loss for how to handle.

All of these situations have involved at least one or more children from the same family. I've never seen the parents of these children at the playground; the siblings range in age from 12 to 3. I know the actual ages of the oldest and youngest (both girls) but am guessing about the ones in between.

I am often the only adult at the playground, and I've sometimes been unsure of how much to involve myself in some of the interchanges these kids have initiated with my girls, especially with my 10yo. Apparently they don't like it that she's sometimes "dusty" from playing outdoors and that she currently just has a few changes of clothes that she alternates between.

And sometimes if I just did laundry in the morning, dd will put on the same outfit that she wore to the park the day before. So the kids in this family sometimes ask her about her bathing habits, and today one of the girls who looks to be 8 or 9 informed dd she was a "he-she." I told her it's none of her business what my daugher wears, and I encouraged dd to ignore this child because she's not a nice person.

The 12yo also got very up-in-arms today when my 5yo fell down (she doesn't usually wear dresses to the playground but she did today), and her dress went up and I guess dd's butt-cheek was exposed. I tried to ignore this girl while she went on and on to her friends about how disgusting it was, but when she decided to come over and inform me about the matter, I told her that little kids really don't think about these things.

As an example, I pointed out the 9 or 10yo boy who was running around with his pants hanging down and his underwear completely showing, and she walked off looking a little put out. This is when another child pointed out that the "pants-down" boy was this 12yo's brother.

Anyhow, the "pants-down" boy decided today that he wanted to start addressing my 10yo as "b!tch." She told me and I said that isn't her name so just don't answer to it, but when she ignored him he swatted her on the head and said, "Hey b!tch! I'm talking to you."

When I told him he is not allowed to touch my girls. He said, "What you gonna do about it? Call the police?" and I said I would if the harrassement continued. The 12yo thought this was so funny that she started roughhousing with one of her friends and asking me if I was going to call the police because she was being harassed.

I feel so strongly that this is our neighborhood; we've bought a home here and are committed to staying here. I realize I need to just refuse to get into conversations with kids who are just bent on being hateful, and I need to be proactive and call police at the very first threat of violence if it happens in the future.

I also want to help my 10yo find ways to enjoy her favorite hangout at times when these kids are trying to verbally start stuff. When I was her age I got intimidated and avoided these kinds of situations, but I think I missed out on a lot by allowing myself to be "criminalized" and "jailed" just because other kids had targeted me as someone to pick on.

I've talked to a police officer and have learned that they can do absolutely nothing about kids addressing other kids as "b!tch" -- but they do want to know about actual physical violence or threats of violence. So we need to ignore the language but be quick to dial 911 if they get physical.

I also think I should talk with the mother of the little girl who told me she was recently bullied by two of these children; I've been getting to know many children but hardly ever meet any parents out there, so I may just need to go introduce myself.

Again, input is welcome, and especially if you are dealing with or have dealt with anything similar, please share.


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## Learning_Mum (Jan 5, 2007)

Do you realise that *you're* being bullied by this girl?

You need to stop worrying about hurting peoples feelings or getting into confrontations and start telling her to back off in no uncertain terms.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Learning_Mum* 
Do you realise that *you're* being bullied by this girl?

You need to stop worrying about hurting peoples feelings or getting into confrontations and start telling her to back off in no uncertain terms.

Gosh, thanks for giving me this perspective!

Today, one of the other sisters (somewhere between the age of the 12yo and the one that looks to be 8 or 9) heard me talking with me 10yo and advising her not to get in conversations with these kids, and came up and told me "You need to quit judging us."

I just told her that they were saying whatever they wanted to say about us, and I was going to keep talking with my kids and helping them learn to cope with the situation.

I haven't actually been following my own advice to my 10yo, because she keeps seeing me "engaging" with these kids. I've kept hoping that somehow we can reach an understanding with them and go back to enjoying these lovely September afternoons and evenings that aren't going to last forever. And I've got my book that I want to resume reading.

I refuse to let these bullies steal our September! I will NOT engage with them anymore. I'll be firm and draw the line, and pick up the phone and dial 911 if anyone tries to physically harm anyone. And I'll try to network with other families, which means I'll need to take the initiative to talk with parents who don't come out.

I would try to talk with the mother of the bully-children, but their house is not visible from the playground so I don't actually know how to find her since, as far as I can tell, she never comes over. But maybe it's better to leave that up to the police at this point.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

I have to agree, these girls are walking all over you mama because you are trying to make nice. Forget it. They need some tough talk and NOW. Bullies sense weakness so you have to toughen up. They will continue this type of garbage indefinitely until you put a stop to it.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Latte Mama* 
I have to agree, these girls are walking all over you mama because you are trying to make nice. Forget it. They need some tough talk and NOW. Bullies sense weakness so you have to toughen up. They will continue this type of garbage indefinitely until you put a stop to it.

Yes, I can see that this is very good advice. Now I just need to figure out a way to make my point without getting sucked into any fruitless discussions, because they do try to turn everything into an argument.

I know I can't "legally" force one child not to call another child "b!tch" or "MF" what-have-you, so in these cases I've reiterated to my 10yo that these are not her names so the person is obviously not talking to her; maybe they are just practicing the only words they know so they'll have something to say at school tomorrow.

Since I'm talking to my dd and not to them, I need to just put up a brick wall if one of them starts whining about how I shouldn't judge them. No need to explain, again, that just as they feel free to say whatever they want, we are also free. Just ignore them as I'm not talking to them.

Of course, if one of these kids is asking dd if they can use the swing after her (and is not using any profanity to ask the question), I want to encourage her to do what it takes to be polite and let them have a turn just as she likes to get a turn.

That's another difficult situation. The swings are dd's absolute favorite piece of park equipment, and it's upsetting to her that when certain kids are rude and say stuff like, "Here you can have my swing" -- and then after she runs over they laugh and give the swing to another child or keep swinging, I can't do anything about this, other than empathise with her and try to help her cope.

Yet I keep encouraging her to be fair and let others have a turn -- even if it's a child from this "not-so-nice" group who I see has been waiting for a while. I feel like it's important to be fair, and start every day fresh without holding a grudge over what "went down" the day before -- even to the point of being willing to share our snacks when some of these kids see we have something they like and want some.

Yet these kids are clearly "remembering" whatever beef they think they have with us -- maybe not when they want our snacks or want my help on the equipment -- but the next time they just decide they want to be mean, they do it. It makes my older dd really upset when I am nice to them, and I think it's at the point where I just need to shut them out.

I did reach the point yesterday where I didn't feel like getting up to help the boy when he was calling out for me to help him down after he'd climbed on top of the swingset and got scared -- and he finally figured out how to jump down on his own.

We've got other plans and are taking a break tonight and maybe even tomorrow night -- but we're still not giving up our playground. We just need to talk together beforehand and resolve that any rude communications from these kids will be ignored -- by me as well as by them; maybe not ignored in terms of me talking with my 10yo and helping her to cope, but ignored in terms of not talking with the rude children.

If there is any more threat of physical violence, I will pick up the phone and dial 911 since I need to follow through with what I said. I realize the boy would probably love for me to resort to responding physically, with his older siblings watching, so that he could run to his mama and they could get a lawsuit rolling. I'd REALLY be letting them bully me if I bit the bait and got sucked into an ordeal like that.

I realize I really am now having to learn to deal with the bullying that I worked so hard to avoid when I was a kid. I guess unresolved issues will keep coming back into our lives until we chop them up into little pieces, digest them, and flush them into the waterworks ... and sometimes we even have to use a plunger and give them a second send-off.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

For anyone who's interested, I've posted the following thread in Religious Studies to journal, and get insights from others, about this in relation to my spiritual journey --

http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1260900


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

Your being bullied. Stop letting them do it. Stand up for youself, stand up for your kids. If they curse at you curse right back - put'm in their place. 'Goto hell' is *not* out of place to kids that are calling you/your kids bitch. Its really not.

And whatever you do, do not *ever* make idle threats. *never* threaten to call the cops unless your 100% prepared to do so/already have done so. And whatever you do, don't ever get physical - unless they do so first. If they try and hit you, you are 100% in your right to grab their hand/arm and tell them in no certain terms that they *WILL NOT* hit you/your kids again. And hold onto'm while you call the cops.


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## CarrieMF (Mar 7, 2004)

You & your kids need to ignore these other kids.

If they call over hey you want this swing, she should ignore it even if she really wants to. THey are doing it just so they can take it away. They have no intentions on letting her swing.

If they ask her if they can swing when she's on it, she can ignore their requests.

If they need help (not in an emergency sort of way) ignore them.

If they want your snacks. Ignore them.

Act as if these kids are not there.

If they do threaten or act in any violent way towards your kids or other kids phone the cops.

These kids aren't just bullying you they are using you. I see no reason why you should share the snacks you bring. If they are hungry they can go home.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CarrieMF* 
These kids aren't just bullying you they are using you. I see no reason why you should share the snacks you bring. If they are hungry they can go home.

Yes, even though it doesn't come naturally to me to refuse anyone food, I realize that I just need to ignore them.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Actually, I think I can learn a thing or two from my 10yo about not sharing unless I want to. I think one reason some of the kids in this group don't like dd is that she doesn't want other people to ride her bike, and I don't do forced sharing so it's totally up to her.

Her decision actually makes a lot of sense, because if she let everyone who wanted a turn have a turn, she'd hardly ever get to ride. And also there'd be a lot more wear and tear a lot faster.

We do share small stuff like balls and frisbees, but dd doesn't share her bike, and I respect the way that she's able to just say "no" without worrying about any hurt feelings. This is really going to be a great learning experience for me, my daughters, and probably for everyone involved.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

We are thinking of moving over a similar situation. Our next door neighbors are nasty horrible bullies with the parents to match.

I have found that, oddly, some parents think it is a sign of good leadership skills and such if their child is a bully. They seem to like it.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

I refuse to share food. I always just assume that I do not know what diets or otherwise their parents have them on. Regardless, bullies do not get my food. If they have to go home and eat, then they will stop bullying your child for that period of time.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lisa1970* 
I refuse to share food. I always just assume that I do not know what diets or otherwise their parents have them on.

As far as special diets or food allergies, I've always kind of assumed that parents who are letting their kids connect with the world independently must be trusting them to make their own food choices. I mean, if my child would die or have a serious reaction if she ate a particular food and I didn't trust her to be vigilant about what she ate, I sure wouldn't be sending her out on her own.

Sometimes a small child accompanied by a parent will come over and ask for something we have; if the parent is there I check with him or her before sharing with the child. But most/many of the children who come to this playground, who are older than maybe five or so, come without parents.

I've always been willing to share if we have enough of something to share, and I still will with those who are acting respectfully. Sometimes people have shared their snacks with us, and I really like that family feeling. I like feeling like my neighborhood is my extended family.

Quote:

Regardless, bullies do not get my food. If they have to go home and eat, then they will stop bullying your child for that period of time
That would be cool. However, a few days ago, after I had shared a couple of helpings of our nuts with the boy and then explained that we needed to make our supply last, the boy kept begging me for more, and I suggested that he go home and eat something if he was so hungry. But he just kept on coming to me, and I just kept on telling him no.

The girl later told me that they were hungry because they didn't have food at home. However, she told me this as they were eating the ice cream bars that they'd bought off a cart. We didn't have money for ice cream that day, so I guess they're doing better than we are.


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## FloridaBorn (Nov 28, 2009)

Find a big, protective momma pit-bull from the animal shelter and walk her to the playground every time you go.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Two quick things:

Id call the city and ask for a "no cursing" sign to go up at the playground.

I would go door to door to find her parents if I had to, but I would find them and tell them what is going on. This has gone on for too long, its not one or two times. Their mother/father needs to be aware that their kids are being a**holes.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lisa1970* 
We are thinking of moving over a similar situation. Our next door neighbors are nasty horrible bullies with the parents to match.

I'm so sorry!







They must be awful for one family to be making you think of moving!

Quote:

I have found that, oddly, some parents think it is a sign of good leadership skills and such if their child is a bully. They seem to like it.
You know, this makes me think of the issue we had with the oldest (12yo) sister in this family a while back. I'd actually started a thread about it here titled "Playground Drama."

I had really felt that she was targeting my 10yo, when she made a big issue of demaning an apology because she said my dd had kicked her 3yo sister when the little girl had walked in front of dd's swing. Dd likes to swing with her eyes closed, and was not aware of kicking anyone, but she did apologize.

It was weird because the child was not crying and did not seem to be hurt or upset, but the 12yo made a big deal about how the apology was necessary so that it could be "over." Also, on a side-track, she picked that evening to question my 10yo about her bathing habits. I ended up feeling a need to go up to her and ask her what her problem was with my daughter, at which point she totally backed down and said there was no problem any more.

She just seemed like a real case of something undesirable -- but after that she seemed to mellow out and even sat with me on the bench and chatted on an evening soon after. However, the other day she seemed to think it was really funny the way her little brother was acting.

So I honestly don't know what is going through their minds, or if they see this as some kind of stand that they need to take to assert their "leadership skills." Since I've never seen their mother or father, I'm not sure if they are nice and mellow, or easily offended and nosy about other people's business as their children seem to be.

Of course, it's really not my business what is going through the minds of the children and parents in this family -- except where it affects my own family and the other children who have a right to enjoy the playground in safety.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FloridaBorn* 
Find a big, protective momma pit-bull from the animal shelter and walk her to the playground every time you go.

I'm too scared of pit-bulls, and other aggressive dogs as well, to be able to do that.









Plus, I really don't want any of these kids to be killed or injured -- I just want the playground to be a safe place for everyone.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Adaline'sMama - that's a great idea about a no cursing sign! I hadn't thought of that, but I know some other parents have sometimes grumbled about the way that some teens come over and curse in front of the little children.

I actually haven't felt upset about "conversational cursing," although, yeah, most teenagers haven't yet mastered the skill of using curse words sparingly in order to express strong emotion or punctuate a point.

We don't censor our girls' speech, and one day my 10yo actually came to me and wondered why "those teenagers over there" were cursing like every other word. She seemed to think it was kind of dumb, but I guess it's not like forbidden fruit to her so it doesn't give her quite the same thrill or surge or whatever.

However, I do have a problem with people using curse words to abuse others. So since some kids seem to want to use the words in this way, I think a sign is a good idea. And I have a feeling I wouldn't have any problem getting a lot of parents to sign a petition, should that be required.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

By continuing to share and make nice when THEY feel like making nice, you're just making yourself a door mat. These children are old enough for you to say no, I am not going to share food with someone who is rude to me and my family, go do something else. They're old enough to understand that if you're mean, there are people who won't be intimidated by a pack of kids under 12.

There is no point in trying to win them over. Do your thing, ignore them, tell them off when you need to, but helping them and feeding them, then letting them talk to you and your kids like that is not going to improve the situation.


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## marinak1977 (Feb 24, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FloridaBorn* 
Find a big, protective momma pit-bull from the animal shelter and walk her to the playground every time you go.

That is a terrible idea unless the OP is an experienced dog owner and could end up with somebody getting hurt, her getting sued, and the dog getting killed. Bringing dogs to a playground for the purposes of protection is a sure way of having a child get bit.


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## CarrieMF (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:

Id call the city and ask for a "no cursing" sign to go up at the playground.
Even without freedom of speech laws this is ridiculous. Who is going to police it?


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Yeah... somehow I don't think these kids are likely to obey a sign.

I'm also not sure the OP should try to find the kids' parents. What if they're scarier than the kids? I mean, bullying kids are often like that for a reason. What if the parents get offended and egg their kids on, or start with their own threats and bullying?

I'm sorry, OP: that sounds like a very uncomfortable, stressful situation. Not sure how I'd deal: I'd probably wimp out and abandon the playground, or at least find times to go when the other kids weren't around.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smokering* 
Yeah... somehow I don't think these kids are likely to obey a sign.

This is a good point. I guess it's just a matter of instilling in dd that her name isn't "B!tch" or "M_F_" so she should just assume that anyone saying these words is talking to themselves or an imaginary playmate, or maybe their own "wee-wee," and ignore them.

Quote:

I'm also not sure the OP should try to find the kids' parents. What if they're scarier than the kids? I mean, bullying kids are often like that for a reason. What if the parents get offended and egg their kids on, or start with their own threats and bullying?
Another good point. We actually recently had some drama at the playground between two adults. There is an older lady in the neighborhood who is involved with parks and recreation, and she has been going over every day picking up trash (and sometimes syringes), and trying to get the kids to stop littering, because her granddaughter likes playing there and the city has been considering removing all the play equipment because of the trash, and some other problems late at night.

There's one particular neighbor who likes sending her dog across the street to poop at this park, and the older lady got fed up and one day headed over to their house to ask the lady to give her a plastic bag so she could clean up the poop.

Well, the lady got mad and yelled at her and said, "You don't come knocking on my door!" and wouldn't give her a bag. So the older lady got mad and called animal control (or said she did) -- but then she got out of line and started making a big deal to this woman's children and telling them, over and over, "You're gonna lose your dog! And all you had to do was give me a plastic bag, that's all I asked for and I would have been nice and cleaned it up..."

Which of course upset the mother, and it culminated in these two grown women having it out (verbally, not physically) right in the middle of the playground a few days ago.

It makes me sad, because if this older lady wasn't so prone to going overboard and going on and on and on about grievances to children at the playground and anyone who's too polite to walk away from her, I'd really like to team up with her.

There are just so many hard feelings toward this old woman right now. Apparently some neighbors are getting prosecuted by the city because they were emptying their home trash into the bins at the playground, which go 10 feet deep into the ground.

I was surprised to learn about the depth, because they are usually full to overflowing with trash scattered on the ground around them because it won't go in -- and the older lady explained that they are 10 feet deep so that they only need to be emptied something like every 3 months -- only with some people throwing in their home trash they fill up really past.

So apparently some city employees went through the bags of garbage and found enough identifying information to prosecute the guilty families. Since the older lady has been going around telling everyone about this, people kinda seem to see her as a snitch, I think.

It's hard because I can tell she really cares about the neighborhood. It seems like there are the folks who maybe care a little but not enough to really get involved, and then there are the folks who care but maybe just reach the boiling point and don't know where to try the line and let up about something.

Quote:

I'm sorry, OP: that sounds like a very uncomfortable, stressful situation. Not sure how I'd deal: I'd probably wimp out and abandon the playground, or at least find times to go when the other kids weren't around.
We homeschool so it would be cool with me and, I think, with my younger dd to go earlier in the day when we'd have it pretty much to ourselves.

But my 10yo isn't that interested in just playing on the equipment; she really wants to see her friends and play with other kids in her age group. Even her favorite activity of swinging is no fun to her when she doesn't have any friends around to watch her jump off.


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## kathteach (Jun 6, 2004)

Wow, this is truly horrible. I'm really sorry your family is experiencing this. You and your family can get through this, I know it.

Can you call Parks & Rec and keep going up the chain of command until you get someone who listens? Could you make a request for an employee to patrol the grounds for a period of time? With the poop and trash issues happening simultaneously it seems like some serious attention is needed in that specific park. Or do you maybe have an assertive friend or family member who could accompany you to the park? Is there another nearby park you could visit temporarily?

I gotta agree with the other posters, just don't engage with these children anymore. Not with food, not with swing offers, not clothing discussions, nothing. Have some very short replies ready beforehand if they try to engage and stick to them and keep calm and don't engage. Be busy with your book or your cell phone. It will be difficult because their behavior will ramp up to try to get a reaction from your family. You are their target and once your reactions stop being fun they will stop.

This article has some good advice: http://wondertime.go.com/learning/ar...our-child.html

You are a wonderful mom for seeking advice here and learning along with your child. I am sorry this is so hard right now, I would be so very angry.


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## lookatreestar (Apr 14, 2008)

i haven't experienced this myself, but my mom was never afraid to stand up to kids who were being jerks. it was funny, kids who were rotten always acted like angels around my mom (neighborhood kids, field trip kids etc). my mom had rules about how she was to be treated and how her stuff/house/car/kids were to be treated as well. i think you just need to be harsh with them once and stick with it. boundaries.









oh and that is insane about the trash, who takes their house trash to the park?? disgusting. or better yet sends their dog to poo at the park then come back home! i am with the old lady, who cares if she "snitched" ... they were in the wrong.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

kathteach -- what a great article! Thank you! The second page seems to take a while to load, so I'll have to finish it later. I also want to read it to dd. She loves the Back to the Future movies.

lookatreestar -- my reservations about the older lady are not that she "snitched" -- but that she was targeting these women's children who probably have no control over their mom's decisions.

I also think it's great that the parents who were using the park to dispose of their trash got caught and are being prosecuted (this includes the lady sending her dog to poop at the park) -- but IMO it's kind of dumb for the older lady to make it so obvious that she was involved in this whole process.

I also think it's tacky to pass along information about who's being prosecuted to other people -- and mostly she's passing it along to kids since they're the main ones who are out there.

I understand that I may need to talk about the bullies to other people, but I feel like there's a difference between working together to deal with a public menace, and giving out information about other people when it's truly not helpful.

I guess she just needs to talk about this, and if kids are the only ones she can find to talk to, she'll just go up and unload on them. I am very thankful for the internet and MDC, because I was so very very angry about our own issues a couple of nights ago, but talking about it here is really helping me to work through it and start calming down and seeing the positive.

If this lady doesn't have any online community to help her process the stress, maybe she just has to let it out to whoever's around, or burst. I will try to be a better friend to her. I think I hurt her feelings when I got onto her the other day about the way she was talking to the kids.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I ahve one experience with addressing a bully. He for some reason targeted my kiddo at the school playground after school one day shortly before school let out last year. DS was in Kindergarten, the other kid was in 3rd grade (in the beginning they were all introducing themselves so I overheard). There were 4 boys: 2 3rd graders a 2nd grader and a 1st grader, and my son. The one kid just decided that my kid made an easy target, and started tripping him and shoving him while they were playing their rescue/adventure game - being slick about it at first so it seemed like part of the game, but I saw it from the first time and was watching. After a couple times I called DS over and told him to try to steer clear of that kid since he seemed to have a problem; DS tried, but was unsuccessful as the kid kept targeting him. My breaking point was when I saw the boys running behind a tree out of view of all the parents except me (because I was on a swing next to my DD), and this kid ran behind DS, stuck out his foot to hook my kiddos foot to trip him, while simultaneously grabbing the back of his shirt and tackling him down to the ground. Adrenaline took over and I shouted across the playground, "HEY! *NO WAY*!" and jogged over there. There was another boy there who looked kind of shell shocked because I dont think he was on board with that part of the play, and he got up looking real scared and ran off. I used my loud, firm voice and said, "Come ON, that's NOT COOL." He said, "we're just having fun" with a smirk. I said, "Doesn't look like he's (my son) having fun being tripped, and it's NOT fun to *me* when a bigger kid tackles and picks on a younger kid. Nobody else is hitting or tackling in this game." Of course DS was embarrassed, but he got over it and started playing in a different area.....and some of the other kids around migrated over to him to play a new game. SO this older boy, and I cannot believe this, walks over with a fist sized rock in his hand, and chucks it in a puddle below the tire swing my DS was standing on (the kids were using it as a prison they had to rescue DS from) so that he'd get him wet/muddy. SERIOUSLY? I was too far away to do anything about it, but for a moment I was terrified because I swear I thought the kid was going to throw the rock AT DS. I was just getting up to go to the kid and ask him what the HELL his problem was, when the dad finally shows up at the playground and calls him over and has him sit in time out because by that point the kid had started kicking at his sister and the dad saw that. So the dad calls him over like 5 times in 30 minutes, for trying to hit kids with sticks, shoving another kid to the ground, tripping his little sister, etc. Then they finally leave. I've seen the kid twice now that school has started up again, and he's always messing with somebody. It takes a lot for me to say I don't like a kid, I can usually find something redeeming or have sympathy that they have some kind of problems going on in their lives, but I really don't like this kid.







I guess I feel bad because something is clearly going on, but i have NO desire to teach my kid to take that on just to be "nice". Ugh.

So anyway.....that day was so stressful to me, and it was only one day - I can't imagine the adrenaline you have in your body every time you go there and the kids are there. You're going to have to stand up to them gently but firmly, and I'd tell them exactly why in words they can understand: If you can be polite and respectful, we'd enjoy being friends and having fun together, but we won't let you keep bullying us with words and actions, and then deciding when you want to be nice to get things from us. Period.

Good good luck, mama.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I just read that article and the accompanying website and holy COW, it rocked my world!


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
I just read that article and the accompanying website and holy COW, it rocked my world!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Hi all! Thank you everyone for being such a help to me!

We've had a lot going on for the last few days, plus it felt good to take a little break from the situation, so today was our first time going back.

We were there this afternoon for a good three hours, and overall had a pretty good time. Dd2 and I walked over while dd1 went ahead of us on her bike. She said that as she rode up, a bunch of the teens/preteens from this group were there, and one girl yelled, "Hey wedgie-girl!"

Dd said, "Are you talking to me?" and the girl said, "Yeah I'm talking to you," and so dd rode back to us (as a whole bunch of them joined in and started yelling "wedgie-girl") and told me what happened. I just reminded her that her name isn't wedgie-girl, so she shouldn't even respond to that.

We arrived together and, yeah, they were all hollering "wedgie-girl" and I just said again to dd "That's not your name" and encouraged her to go swing on the empty swing, so she did.

One of dd's friends arrived a moment later, and another friend came soon after, so dd got very busy playing with her girlfriends and seemed pretty oblivious to the mean kids, who also seemed to give up trying to engage with dd.

The teens all got engaged in an "acorn war" but I didn't stress because they were only throwing at the others who wanted to play. Dd at one point wanted to join in, and I explained how this could really cause an injury if she was hit in an eye.

She and her friends ended up gathering up acorns to supply one of the nicer teen girls with ammunition, and I felt this was fine so long as dd wasn't actually throwing at anyone herself, since a couple of these kids really seem to have it in for my dd -- and some of them were throwing so hard that they managed to put a welt on one of their friends.

The war tapered off, and a bit later the boy from the other day came over. He walked over to my dd and said "B!tch!" (she told me about it later) but she just ignored him and he moved on. After playing here and there a little, he walked over to where I was sitting off to the side trying to read my book, and started zinging acorns at me.

I told him if he did it again, I would call the police, then another acorn zinged past my head so I just picked up the phone and called. Someone answered right away; I explained the situation and she said she'd send a couple of officers by.

Then the boy ran off, but he actually walked back over when the police car pulled up. I went over to them and pointed out the boy, and he came up when the officer called him over. He didn't say much when the officer questioned him. When the officer asked about his parents, he pointed out his older sister, and the officer asked him to get her but she refused to get up so they went over to her.

At this point I went back to my area and sat down until one of the officers came back to talk to me. I did hear one officer tell the boy that if he kept having to come over and deal with him, he'd be taking him somewhere and it wouldn't be home. Dd1 hung around and listened (as many others were doing), and she told me that the boy accused her (or someone) of taking his swing.

The officer just asked him if she had picked him up and thrown him off the swing, and the boy said no, he was off the swing but he was going to get on it, and the officer said that if he gets off then someone else can get on. The officer who came to me asked who my daughters were, so I pointed them out.

Then he said the boy had claimed that someone took his swing, and I said that sometimes a lot of different kids do go after the same swing, and maybe something like that happened the other day -- but today what happened was he came up to me and started throwing acorns at me. I thanked them for coming so quickly, and they went back over to the group and gave another pep talk about nobody throwing acorns anymore and they left.

At this point, dd1 came to me upset because one of her friend's dads told her that he didn't know if he wanted his dd coming to our house because I had called the police. Dd's friend also has an older teen brother who is friends with this group, and the parents don't usually come to the park, but today they had come over and were hanging out and laughing and talking with the teens.

I don't think anyone else even observed the acorn-throwing, since I was off to the side and all I did was give the boy one warning and then just call. I had decided that I needed to follow through with my promise, and that I wasn't going to wait for the situation to escalate. But maybe I should have tried to draw some others' attention to the problem, I don't know.

I really don't think it's productive to keep second-guessing myself. If dd's friend's parents had come to me I would have explained -- but I wasn't going to go over to talk to them with the group. Plus I know I didn't do anything wrong. I suppose it may have looked to them like I just sat there while all those other kids were having their "war" -- and then turned around and called when I saw one little boy throwing acorns.

However, dd later told me that her friend's mom did ask her why the police were called, and dd told her that he was throwing the acorns right at me, so then the mom told the dad it was okay and it wasn't "like that" (whatever he apparently thought it was like), and they told dd that their dd could come over after all (they have planned a sleepover for this Friday).

I've told dd that it's okay if she comes, but to be prepared that they might decide she can't. I said that if people don't want to be our friends because we're not willing to be harmed, then they're really not our friends in the first place. Dd seems pretty cool with the situation, though of course she's still hoping her friend can come.

The boy did run over to us as dd was putting her new acorn collection into a bag in my purse, and actually reached right into our space to try to take some acorns -- and I said "Get out of our space! We don't get in your space, so stay out of ours!" and he backed off.

So we'll just take it day by day. I feel much more empowered now, and I'm prepared that some people may misunderstand the situation and think I'm some sort of a "snitch." If they want to ask me about it, I'll tell them why I called, but I'm not going to get sucked into needing to go up to everybody and explain and be all on the defensive.

I think this may be partly what happened with the elderly woman. She was always wanting to explain everything to everybody -- and some people don't want to be involved.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Wow! Good for you for calling the police. That tells these kids you mean business.

A really good article on stopping bullies (or at least minimizing it) is here.
http://www.bullies2buddies.com/?q=node/154

You can't prevent them from saying rude things, but you can roll your eyes and say "oh, ha ha" in your most bored tone and walk away.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
Wow! Good for you for calling the police. That tells these kids you mean business.

A really good article on stopping bullies (or at least minimizing it) is here.
http://www.bullies2buddies.com/?q=node/154

You can't prevent them from saying rude things, but you can roll your eyes and say "oh, ha ha" in your most bored tone and walk away.

Yes, I finally finished that article and then I read it to dd. She was eager to start the series, and we've already read the first two. Now the girls and Daddy are practicing how to deal with bullies. It's so cute, dd2 keeps saying, "Do you wash your underweah?"

Earlier today when we were at the playground, dd2 was sitting with me by the swings when the 12yo who makes a big deal about panties came over to swing. Dd2 looked at her, and then asked me, "What did you tell me to say if someone says, 'Do you wash your underweah?'"

And I laughed and said, "Well, no one is saying that to you right now, but if anyone does you can say, 'None of your business!' or 'Go wash your underwear!'" And dd watched the girl on the swings for a long time with a big grin on her face, as if she was just waiting for her to ask so she could tell her to go wash, LOL.

With dd2, I don't have to worry so much about them "getting a reaction" about the underwear-thing, 'cause I honestly don't think she'd care if they told her she stunk.







I'm more concerned that if someone told her to pull down her pants she'd do it and think it was funny.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I also wanted to add that I am now seeing it as a wonderful thing that we are getting to have this experience. The articles are showing me how learning to disconnect, right now, the remote-control that bullies have to our brains is a basic life skill that will keep us empowered for the rest of our lives.

Another wonderful thing to realize is that I no longer need to feel any sympathy for the bullies. According to this author, bullies have higher-than-average self esteem and lower-than-average anxiety in their lives. They bully because they are already feeling great and bullying gives them that extra little kick that pumps them up even higher.

This frees me to just focus on having fun with my daughters, without any worries about hurting their feelings if they complain about being hungry or stuck on top of the swingset or what-have-you.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Well, after my last post I was spending some time with dd1 as she dropped off to sleep, and she told me about an incident that I hadn't been aware of, and this made me realize that I may have another interesting issue to navigate: some of the teens seem eager to see what it will take to get me to call the police again.

Dd said that after the police left, she and her friend were continuing to collect acorns, and she felt herself being pelted with a few acorns but she wasn't sure but what it might be an accident. Then she got hit in the back of the head with a basketball, and she said she didn't want to give anyone the satisfaction of turning to see who did it, so she just got up and started walking over to tell me.

She was pretty sure it was her friend's older brother, since he was the one playing with the ball. His parents were still there but she said they didn't act like they saw it. As she was walking to me, she heard some whispering of, "Now she's gonna go tell her mom," and she saw me watching her walk over and assumed I must have seen everything, and since I wasn't reacting she thought it must not be a big deal and she went back to playing with her friend.

I told her I hadn't seen her get hit by acorns or a ball, and I said I do want to know if someone is physically harming her. But I also said it was okay for her to use her judgement. Apparently after she decided not to tell me and went back to playing, it stopped. But we went home soon after, so I'm not sure if it would have stopped permanently.

I realize that some of these kids might be thinking it would be cool to see if they can get me to dial 911 over and over. Especially since they've heard the comments of at least two other adults who were there, and know that there's a good likelihood that a lot of adults will take a dislike to me if I keep calling the police over to their neighborhood playground.

I know it's very important to be unafraid to call when there is someone trying to do actual physical harm to one of us or to anyone else. I say this even though the officer did seem a bit discouraging during the few minutes he was talking one-on-one with me, out of earshot of everyone else.

He was saying that if the boy's parents were unwilling to cooperate (and he had a feeling that they were not involved parents), then there wasn't very much they could do. I said can't you at least talk to the parents, and he said not if the kids won't tell me where they live.

That was a bit puzzling to me, because it was my understanding that if a police officer wanted, for any reason, to see my ID or to know where I lived, and I refused to tell him -- well, I thought this would be grounds for arrest. You mean I can commit any crime I want and if I'm not willing to "cooperate" with the police and tell them who I am, there's nothing they can do?

I didn't say all this to the police, though. I figured it was better to be positive and show appreciation for their quick response. At least from the little I heard of their conversation with the kids, they did learn their address (though I guess they said they wouldn't talk to their mom this time, but would if it happened again... apparently the father is dead).

It's not like they were threatening to ignore me if I called again, but maybe they are worried that I'll just call for anything and everything. Also, maybe they are hoping that nice people like me will just realize they need to stay in their houses in "tough neighborhoods" like this one. Or, better yet, move to the burbs.

I still recall taking a walk once, years ago, not far from where we live now, and having an officer pull up to talk to me to find out my purposes for walking there. He informed me that this was not a good neighborhood for taking a walk because there were lots of prostitutes and other bad people.

So I realize that to some in law enforcement, it just makes their jobs easier if any and all potential victims are willing to stay home and let the bullies have the run of the neighborhood. Kind of like my old job in a daycare center was a lot easier on those days when most of the parents had a holiday and kept their kids at home.









I realize it's important that I only call about actual, harmful, physical contact or threats. And it's important that I stick to the facts. And be calm and polite and logical. And be prepared that some adults will take a dislike to me because they just don't like anyone who calls the police.

I also can really feel in my heart that we will make some good and lasting friendships through this whole ordeal. I have a feeling that there are other parents who'd like for their kids to be able to play in their hometown without fear.

I also realize that, though the learning curve may be tough, these are priceless skills that my girls and I are learning, and it's priceless empowerment that we are gaining.

Sometimes I just wish that putting the bullies in their place was as easy as the "Home Alone" kid makes it look.







But, even if it is harder in real life, maybe we can have just as much fun doing it.









We've sure been having a lot of fun this evening brainstorming and learning together as a family, so the bullies may be bringing us even closer together. Thank you, bullies! Now that I know from the article that you have high self-esteem and low anxiety and there's no reason to pity you, I sure do think it's our turn to start enjoying this whole process!


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## Learning_Mum (Jan 5, 2007)

I have to be honest and say that I'm suprised you called the police because a kid was throwing acorns at you. It seems like a huge waste of their time to come to the playground and sort out who took whose swing. Honestly, it's seems like a really frivilous thing to call the police about.


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## genifer (Feb 19, 2006)

Quote:

We've sure been having a lot of fun this evening brainstorming and learning together as a family, so the bullies may be bringing us even closer together. Thank you, bullies! Now that I know from the article that you have high self-esteem and low anxiety and there's no reason to pity you, I sure do think it's our turn to start enjoying this whole process!
This is how we handled the situation I described in your other thread in the Spirituality section. We spent some time talking about it. I reminisced about how I dealt with kids like this when I was their age. I got into a few fights. I was a quiet kid but I didnt back down from a fight and bc of that on a number of occassions I can remember two girls (both older then me) not turning up to the 'arranged fight', I think, bc they knew I wasnt afraid of them. We had a few families who were like that and targeted us and the local council did get involved and they eventually left us alone.

I have no more advice to add to what Ive already given. Being brave and standing up to them can go a long way. One day, those lads I was talking about in your other thread threw a very big stone at my son's head. A very nasty welt and bruise was the result. He was so brave. He shouted 'There's nothing you can do to hurt me!' and said it felt like he was in a protective bubble. He's nine now, so he must have been about 6 at the time. They grew so much as a result of all that. We talked a lot they learned about their own strengths and weaknesses. We grew closer thru it as a family. Their dad taught them how to defend themselves (well tried to, lol, it was more about a bit of bonding then any real self defence).

Then after we moved, we did make friends with a neighbour and their kids. The boy was older then all of mind. He didnt get on with my son very well really and this day, in the field behind our house, the lad ganged up on him about something silly. My son did get a bit frustrated and threw this kid, who was atleast three years older then him, to the ground and start wailing on him. Now, as a christian, I know the whole turn the other cheek thing but for a child who is being targeted like that, to grow up feeling defenseless, is a bad thing. I was proud of him. Then, however, I learned that his boy's step dad shouted at my son for hitting the lad. I got all mamabear and I just about managed to wait for dh to get home to let him handle it. I did make it clear that I did not want that man ever to discipline my kids ever again. I might be nice, I might be a devoted christian and I might know all about love thy enemies, but I think it is different when Im teaching my kids how to handle themselves when there are people who are worse then not very nice out there. First, I want them to know that they can be brave and not to feel defenseless. Then when they are strong enough in that way they can learn how to handle their own strength and not use it for gain, but in defense of those who are defenseless. ykwim?


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Now that I know from the article that you have high self-esteem and low anxiety and there's no reason to pity you,

i am not sure if i agree with the author fully.

and is it true for all bullies?


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
i am not sure if i agree with the author fully.

and is it true for all bullies?

My personal opinion: Initially, the kid teases someone else to make that person feel bad so that they can feel better about themselves.....but then that powerful feeling is pretty addictive, and it makes them feel better about themselves because they're powerful, so they continue and probably so it to more and more people. So if you'd ask them about it, they'd say they felt great, but the initial thing that probably started it all was insecurity/feeling lousy and wanting someone else to feel worse than them, and picking out someone they thought was "weaker" than they are to accomplish it.

So I'd say that deep, deeeeeep down they probably don't feel great about themselves, but on the surface and if you asked and even if you delved a little, it might seem like they feel good about themselves and their lives. Usually when you feel good about yourself and your life you don't feel the need to make others feel badly.

And having said all that, I don't think that addressing your bully about why they feel lousy about themselves deep down is ever a good idea







. Because at that moment they feel pretty good about themselves and if you take that tack it would likely get worse than it was, so the best thing is to take the power of their words away by not reacting or by turning it into a joke yourself. It's not a kid's (or a parent's) job to help a bully process their inner issues.

And I'll agree that I don't necessarily agree with that part of his writing, but I got a lot of useful information from it, especially the other paper for parents re: siblings.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

In my experience both as a child in school and as an adult in social situations and the work place, there are two kinds of bullies - the angry or unhappy child/adult who lashes out, and the person who feels JUST FREAKIN FINE about himself/herself and just bullies because he/she can. The second type are usually, popular, attractive, sporty, or whatever it is that makes them a big deal in that particular environment. They aren't popular because they bully, but they bully because from the safety of popularity, why not?

I can think of a few really good examples kid/person who had everything and still needed to humiliate the most vulnerable person in that environment. I don't understand it, it would make me feel horrible, but it seems like sport for some people. Because I'm "lucky" enough to live in one of those small towns (and I grew up here, too) where I know the kid, my parents knew the parent, and my grandparents knew the grandparents and now via my daughter, I'm dealing with the next generation - this kind of bully is usually just like mom or dad.


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## newbymom05 (Aug 13, 2005)

OP,I mean this gently, but why don't you just find another playground? AS an objective observer, it seems like this issue isn't going to resolve itself in a positive way. These kids aren't going to stop being jerks. At this point I'd think the best outcome would be that they'd get sneaky about being mean.

It's great you see this as an experience to work through, but you've already made the point to yourself and your kids, so why not move on? You've wasted a lot of energy and time on this drama, and for what? I would think, esp at this point, that you'd get more pleasure out of spending that time/energy in finding another place to play. An unhealthy dynamic is already in place, unfortunately.

Also, I have to agree, calling the police because of acorn throwing? Seriously? I would predict more of the same from these children. It's my understanding that bullies act out for attention, be it positive or negative, and you're providing a wonderful reaction--I can't imagine the power that child must have felt in making you feel so powerless that you have to call the police! (Assuming that's his thought, I can understand you as an adult felt that was the best solution) I would think he saw it as an admittance that you have no power or control over him. At this point, I'd cut bait and find another playground for a couple of weeks, then return. Well, actually, I don't like drama so I'd *never* return around those horrible kids, but that's just me.

Don't get me wrong, these kids and their behavior are indefensible. It's just IMHO this is their parents issue (kids are horrible) and you're not going to be able to do anything about it. You've learned some good bully strategies, now remove yourself from the situation.


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

OP I haven't read all the responses, but I have a little bit of experience dealing with bullies. I was never bullied as a child, ever. I was a total dork mind you. A HUGE dork. But I always ignored teasing and bullies always knew that I couldn't give a rat's you know what about them. I would either completely ignore teasing, or I would give them a sympathetic look and say "I'm sorry you're having a bad day, I hope you feel better tomorrow."(BTW that line works wonders with difficult adults at the post office or airport) It worked everytime. I later found out that the popular girls in my HS were incredibly intimidated by me and my dorky friends because we seemed above them. I suggest you completely ignore these kids. Simply pretend they don't exist. If they try to engage you in anyway don't react, just go about your business. In a few days they will give up.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

Looking bored works wonders. It's hard to explain the nuances of this to children, but it works most of the time.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

You know, it's possible that I didn't make the 100% best decision in calling the police. But guess what? The bullies aren't making the 100% best decisions in their own lives either, and they're not fretting about it.

My girls and I are learning a new skill. If artists gave up the first time they dabbed the wrong color in the wrong place at the wrong stage of the painting, they'd never become full artists. I'm no longer content with just surviving -- I want to thrive at *living*.

I am now fully embracing this as a learning experience, and as long as we are all having fun and feeling like we are benefitting, we'll keep going. This playground/park is six blocks from our house, and there is one other park slightly farther away in the other direction, which doesn't have any swings or any other equipment that my 10yo likes to play on.

If we reach the point where it is no fun going to this playground, then, yeah, why go? Why not drive or take the bus a little farther out? It's certainly an option, and, while I'd love to make our neighborhood a more nourishing place for everyone, my primary responsibility in life is to have fun with my family.

I'm not so sure I agree with the poster who says we've now totally learned how to deal with bullying. I feel like we've just begun -- we haven't even finished the first five articles at the site yet! We're quite eager to put all we're learning into practice, and, as homeschoolers, who knows when we'll ever get another opportunity as rich as this one?

It's funny how I dreaded and hid out from these situations when I was a kid, while my 10yo is just exhilerated and can hardly wait to go back. It must be the difference between being alone as I was, and going through the experience as a family.

Plus, now I get to learn how to go back and deal with a situation that, according to some of you, I handled in a rather silly way. Bullies do dumb stuff all the time and they go back. Why should I hide out because (maybe) I made a mistake?

I agree that at any moment that I don't feel it's benefitting my children, we should bail.

As far as whether these bullies really fit the happy, self-assured profile in the article -- well, it's more fun for me to envision them this way than to see them as kids I should pity. Anyway, I agree with the poster who said I shouldn't try to delve any deeper or try to understand them -- that's their mama's job. My job is to have fun with my kids, and with any other people who want to have fun with us. Period.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

This afternoon was interesting. We were the first ones at the playground; we arrived shortly before kids started coming home from school. Then a couple of the bully-girls arrived; dd1 was swinging and one girl ran over and started swinging on the other swing. The other one sat on the other side of the playground; I was sitting in my usual shady spot on the ground right by the swings.

When dd jumped off, the other girl hollered for her friend to grab the swing for her, but dd got back on it before the girl tuned into what her friend was saying. Then a moment later dd decided she was done swinging and she came to sit with me.

Then the other girl came over and started swinging; then one of the girls started spitting into the air. There was a breeze so I could feel some of the spray. After she did it a couple of times, I just calmly told her it was gross to spit in a public place where it could hit other people. She said, "I don't care!" and continued spitting and her friend started doing it too.

I just turned to dd1 and said, "You know, you were just telling me you were bored, and now these disgusting girls are spitting; I really don't like getting spit on, and it feels hot enough to go to the water park." Dd2 immediately got excited about that idea, and I did say it was possible that they'd shut the water off by now, but if they had we'd find something else fun to do.

Dd2 was all set to go -- but by this point the girls had gotten all up-in-arms about me calling them disgusting. They were cussing up a storm and obviously quite upset (I thought they didn't care?), which amused dd1, so she said she wasn't bored anymore. They were so upset they were forgetting to spit, and just yelling and yelling.

One girl got really angry at dd1 for "mimicking" her. She complained that dd had been silently mouthing back whatever cursewords she was saying. I just told dd that her sister and I really wanted to go check out the waterpark, and that if she wanted to stay a little longer we'd just wait in the van for her.

She decided the waterpark sounded like a good idea; as we walked together to the van, the girls' screaming and cursing escalated; they were still hollering about how I'd called them "disgusting" ... it really amused me that this would upset them so much.

As I reached the van I felt a rather silly, petty urge (they were still screaming at me), and I turned and said something rather corny like, "Bye, nasty, spitty girls! Have a spitty day!" I mean, how dumb could I be? I figured they'd burst out laughing at me for sure -- but it was like I'd triggered the remote control switch to their brains *again* and they screamed even more.

I looked at their faces and they weren't even smiling or laughing at my idiotic remark. They actually looked like they were about to cry. I'm not sure if they were upset about the things I'd said, or upset that we were leaving. I'd honestly thought that our leaving would make them feel like they were "in control."

My girls were cracking up laughing as we pulled off. Dd2 said, "We won, didn't we, Mommy, because we didn't get upset -- they got upset!" I hadn't realized that she'd been paying such close attention to the bullying articles! We've still only read the first two, so I'm sure after we finish the lot I'll have learned how badly I screwed up by answering back the way I did. Oh well, I'm still pretty early in my training.

Anyhow, the water was turned off at the waterpark, so we decided to have some fun exploring our neighborhood and discovering some alternatives for days when it doesn't seem like a brilliant idea to stay at our main park. We found a cool place I'd forgotten about called Inidan Mound. Dd2 had a blast running up and down the mound while dd1 and I relaxed under a tree reading one of her library books that we had in the car.

Then I decided to check out a place near us called The Concourse. The fountains were still running so the girls had a ball running through them and getting soaked.

Then, as we headed home, we swung back by our neighborhood park so dd1 could give our phone number to a friend who'd been asking for it (we'd left before she got home from school). Some of the other bullies were there (we didn't see the two girls from earlier), but they didn't say anything to dd as far as she could tell; she just ran up and gave her friend the number and ran back.

Another girl (age 11) who we've seen around but hadn't got to know too well came to the car to chat with us. She said the same bullies have picked on her, too, and her uncle has even had to talk to one of the teen boys in that group because one day when she was over there he came up and started pinching her breasts. She said she's really scared to go play there unless she sees us or some other adults.

I gave her our phone number and suggested that we try to make some plans to go at the same time. She seemed really happy about that.


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## bodhitree (May 12, 2008)

So, you "won" by calling a couple of kids mean names so that they got upset and you felt good? You are teaching your girls to out-bully the bullies. I haven't read the articles you mentioned, but you are not going to create a more respectful attitude in your neighborhood by acting in such a disrespectful manner yourself. What's going to happen is that everyone in your neighborhood will know that you're the crazy lady who calls the cops on the kids and calls them names. You will lose any chance you have of gaining the cooperation of adults in creating a better atmosphere. And in the long term, you can't win a power struggle with a bunch of kids. They are going to be willing to escalate and do things that I'm sure you won't be willing to do in return (vandalizing your house or car is what comes to mind).

What I would do at this point is remove yourself from the situation and take your girls somewhere else to play. You've already shown them that they don't have to be intimidated, which is awesome. But continuing to engage with the bullies is not going to do any good. And honestly, I'm trying to be gentle, but I'd be pretty ashamed of myself if I found myself acting in the way you describe. You are not in possession of the high ground here, mama. You need to find a way of responding that preserves your dignity and teaches your girls that you don't respond to mean people by being mean yourself.

ETA: I really am trying to be helpful by being so blunt with you, I promise.


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## neetling (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bodhitree* 
So, you "won" by calling a couple of kids mean names so that they got upset and you felt good? You are teaching your girls to out-bully the bullies. I haven't read the articles you mentioned, but you are not going to create a more respectful attitude in your neighborhood by acting in such a disrespectful manner yourself. What's going to happen is that everyone in your neighborhood will know that you're the crazy lady who calls the cops on the kids and calls them names. You will lose any chance you have of gaining the cooperation of adults in creating a better atmosphere. And in the long term, you can't win a power struggle with a bunch of kids. They are going to be willing to escalate and do things that I'm sure you won't be willing to do in return (vandalizing your house or car is what comes to mind).

What I would do at this point is remove yourself from the situation and take your girls somewhere else to play. You've already shown them that they don't have to be intimidated, which is awesome. But continuing to engage with the bullies is not going to do any good. And honestly, I'm trying to be gentle, but I'd be pretty ashamed of myself if I found myself acting in the way you describe. You are not in possession of the high ground here, mama. You need to find a way of responding that preserves your dignity and teaches your girls that you don't respond to mean people by being mean yourself.

ETA: I really am trying to be helpful by being so blunt with you, I promise.









ditto.

If (God forbid) my kids were acting like bullies, I'd certainly want to know about it so I could work on their behaviour. But if an ADULT were stooping to name calling and taunts. Yeah, that wouldn't go over well at all.


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Well I think it's kind of funny calling them "spitty girls" and telling them to have a "spitty day." Unless these girls were preschool age, then I don't consider what the OP said to be "bullying." Honestly they probably got so upset because she made it into a joke and they were frustrated that they were losing their power over the OP and her children. They wanted to get their power high from making them feel bad and they got upset because they couldn't. The OP's words sounded pretty light-hearted to me. She also still managed to disengage after that point. I think the goals of learning to deal with the bullies is to do so in a way that doesn't escalate the situation and that keeps the victims self-esteem intact, and by that measure I think the OP handled the situation very successfully. I'm really glad that things seem to be improving for you guys mammal_mama.


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

Yeah, I don't see the ops actions as bullying. Those kids have been making here life miserable, and it seems like she used humor to deflect the situation. She used their intentional, disgusting actions (spitting at her) against them. If my kid spit on an adult on purpose and the adult called her a "spitty girl" I would not be in the least bit offended.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

Another one who thinks the OP did ok. These bulling kids have done enough and have been given chance after chance to cut it out. The OP has no access to their parents and it's about time she stands up to this nonsense.

Oh and the next time someone throws a ball and your DD's head? I'd take the ball. Then I'd tell the offender that I have no problem giving it back to his/her parent.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Latte Mama* 
Another one who thinks the OP did ok. These bulling kids have done enough and have been given chance after chance to cut it out. The OP has no access to their parents and it's about time she stands up to this nonsense.

Oh and the next time someone throws a ball and your DD's head? I'd take the ball. Then I'd tell the offender that I have no problem giving it back to his/her parent.

The problem here is that the bullies are all from the same family. IME, that usually means that the parents behave the same way. I've seen families like this destroy the peace of whole neighborhoods and drive families out. So appealing to the parents is almost certainly not going to make any difference, apart from making the OP a target of the parents as well as the kids.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
The problem here is that the bullies are all from the same family. IME, that usually means that the parents behave the same way. I've seen families like this destroy the peace of whole neighborhoods and drive families out. So appealing to the parents is almost certainly not going to make any difference, apart from making the OP a target of the parents as well as the kids.

I'm sure you're right about the parents. But I'm really nasty when it comes to anyone hurting my family and there would be a serious issue if someone threw a ball at my kids head on purpose or threw stuff at me, spit on me, etc.

I think a big part of this problem for the OP is that this issue should have been shut down from the very beginning. Because it wasn't, those kids now view her and her kids as prey. It's not hopeless but it will be hard to stop this now.


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## Joyster (Oct 26, 2007)

I think you engaged them to the nth. Not only did you start the fire when you asked them to stop spitting and called it disgusting, but you poured gasoline on it when you called them spitty girls. Of course they're going to freak. Preteens, hormones, drama! You're not dealing with adults, you're dealing with young bullies and they are going to try and get a reaction from you, and they did in spades. I'm sure they're running back to their parents telling them about the lady who's called the cops on them, called them disgusting, spitty, and God knows what else. And their parents don't give a fig, in fact, they might encourage them to stand up for themselves against you.

Yes in an ideal world, you should be able to say something cheeky and get a pass with bullies, but this isn't really about your feelings of justice is it? It's about getting them to stop and it seems like you're consistently feeding into it. Whether your DDs are having a great time at the park or not, I think the drama being stirred up is not good for them, nor is it a great example on how to deal with bullies.

Honestly, and gently, I think you need to disengage big time, you're way too involved in this. It's been going on for over a month and I don't think anyone is learning or winning from this scenario. In fact, with the amount of time and energy being poured into these bullies, you're losing, big time.


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## Learning_Mum (Jan 5, 2007)

I think the first comment that you made to your DD was fine. It is disgusting to spit at someone, however the last remark was childish and mean. It's great to teach your daughters to stand up for themselves but really that remark just kind of taught them that it's OK to be mean and hurtful to someone else.

I also agree with Joyster that you need to step back. It's a little sad the amount of thought and energy that you give these kids. I think it's time to start visiting the other places you mentioned more.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I actually thought what I said was pretty dorky and silly, and it surprised me that they didn't fall out laughing at me right then and there. It amazed me to see their faces all contorted with rage -- this was really hilarious to me because I did NOT see my remarks as a clever comeback, but actually as rather idiotic.









Yes, my girls saw their mama behave in a way that was less than perfect. Do I think this will make them go around and start bullying everyone? No, because they are with me practically 24/7, and they know I am normally the sort of person who is seriously distressed if I find that I've hurt or upset a friend or loved one by something I've said or done.

I like letting people go ahead of me in the grocery line if I see they've just got a few items and I've got a whole cart full. It really makes me feel good to be kind and include people who might be feeling left out in some way. At the playground, I will sometimes call my 10yo over and gently point out that one of her friends has been trying to get her attention and seems a little hurt that dd is very absorbed with another friend and seems to be ignoring her.

My girls KNOW I don't find pleasure in seeing others hurt. The only reason this incident was so funny to me was that I honestly hadn't thought the girls would care about my opinions of their "disgustingness" or their "spittiness." I was expecting them to crack up and call us cowards for moving on to the water park -- but I had just decided that I wasn't going to let others control me to the point where I wasn't willing to leave out of fear of being seen as "backing down."

I agree that I really shouldn't get into the habit of engaging them. Ignoring them is usually the best approach. And stepping back and taking occasional breaks from our "Learning to Deal with Bullies 101" course is definitely a good idea. Today we're staying home to catch up on some needed housework.

Dd1 wants to go back tomorrow, and I definitely think it's a good idea to take the van and be prepared to just move on to a funner place if we're not having fun there. It's totally cool if the bullies think they "won" when they hear us saying we're heading to Penguin Park or some other cool spot, and if they call us "bawk bawk chiCHENS," dd1 will likely just laugh and bawk back cause she loves our 15 chickens and thinks chickens are pretty cool.









And here I'm also reminded of Marty McFly in Back to the Future, and how he needed to learn not to care if he was called chicken, or if the bully seemed to "win" in a particular situation.

But I don't plan to totally abandon this spot, especially after the 11yo girl shared about being molested there and being scared and just staying in her house all the time unless she sees us or other families with adults out there. I may not always be "on higher ground," but I am a caring adult, and apparently at least one other child, in addition to my own dd's, feels safer when I am there.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Also, about my not being "on higher ground" -- I think the desire to always be on higher ground can actually be kind of unhelpful. My mom was one of those who wanted me to "never stoop to their level" (the level of the bullies). I saw her "disappointment" if I ever did manage to give a mean and clever comeback.

Mom was the sort who, like me, enjoyed being polite and gracious. Even if some child was openly rude she preferred to take "the higher ground" and assume they had a bad home situation. She tried to get me to feel sorry for the kids who were mean to me. She really, really expected me to be "above it" all the time and if I "slipped" then it was like I'd "thrown my bonnet over the windmill" or something.









This is why it seems so silly to me now that I wasn't the one hurting people, yet I was supposed to be so darn careful that I was always nice to everyone. I now think it's okay for everyone to mess up sometimes. Sure, it's good to learn that there's a better way and a higher ground, and to know that we have the option of rising above crap when we want to.

But if we get some crap on us, we can just take a shower and move on and resolve to do better next time. I'd honestly rather that my girls learn that it's okay to handle things wrong sometimes, so long as they know they're always free to learn from their mistakes and change course, just as their old mom is constantly doing.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

And of course the bullies are free to learn from their mistakes and move on, too. I sure won't try to stop 'em.


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## wookie (Dec 12, 2008)

I just read all the pages mama and although I think their behaviour is hideous, I just want to remind you, gently, that YOU'RE the ADULT. Bullies as they are they're just kids. What seemed like an idiotic comment to you is of course NOT idiotic to them in the heat of the moment. of COURSe they were not going to tumble down laughing. I mean why are you even caring about what their reactions will be? When they spit on you, you should have just said to YOUR DD "oh, someone spitting on you is disgusting, isn't it DD? Yuck." and then without saying ANYTHING to them you should've just moved from that spot all the while having a very disgusted expression on your face. Everyone here is telling you to disengage but from what I've read it doesn't seem like you've got it yet.

Also, I disagree with the posters who say you should just stop going there. I think you should go but be totally ready to leave if any of the other tactics (bored expression, move from a spot if they're doing something indirectly, etc.) don't work that *particular* day. Find another playground, by all means, and go there more often but don't be scared of going to this one just because it has the bullies. You shouldn't have to change your life plans according to these bullies' schedules. And of course, calling the police for acorn throwing wasn't over the top, IMO.

Lastly, you're doing well but you can do better. Remember always that YOU'RE THE ADULT. you don't have to be gentle with them. If they are imminenetly physically endangering your child, tower up to your full height and dare them to lay a hand on you or your dds. Don't cower. But don't invite their bullying either. Best of luck!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wookie* 
When they spit on you, you should have just said to YOUR DD "oh, someone spitting on you is disgusting, isn't it DD? Yuck." and then without saying ANYTHING to them you should've just moved from that spot all the while having a very disgusted expression on your face. Everyone here is telling you to disengage but from what I've read it doesn't seem like you've got it yet.

I agree that not engaging at all is really the best tactic. I'll admit that I was so surprised at their reaction to my remark (you're right that I should be oblivious to their reaction or lack of reaction to anything I say or do; their reaction is so unimportant it shouldn't even register with me), that I felt an almost irresistable temptation to keep pushing that newly-discovered remote control button.

According to the bullying article, this is a normal primate reaction to realizing we have the remote control to someone else's brain -- but, still, I did have enough self-control not to go there and I went there anyway. The main difference between the bullies and me is that I normally feel no urge to hurt other people -- I normally feel just awful if someone is hurt by my behavior; this was only funny to me because they were being so totally rude and obnoxious to us.

Also, I feel no urge to seek out and destroy those who are different. So maybe I've inherited a tad bit of that bullying-ape gene, but not quite so much as some others.

Oh, and another big difference is that I'm 46 and they seem to all be under 13 -- but, hey, some of us are late bloomers. Better late than never.









Yes, I can do better. I will keep striving to learn from my mistakes and be a better person. I have a bit of the ape in me but I am also human. I just need to choose to be human 100% of the time.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

And, yeah, I agree that I haven't totally "got it" yet. I haven't learned how to completely disengage. I think this is why as a kid I got picked on so much and I thought "ignoring didn't work," because it seemed like I was always ignoring the bullies and they still just couldn't leave me alone.

I'm realizing it is very hard for me to emotionally disconnect. Even if I tried to ignore the mean kids at school, I couldn't stop the tears from welling up in my eyes. One cool thing is that this park-stuff is not making me feel like crying at all, and my dd's seem to be made of tougher stuff than I ever was because they're not walking around all teary-eyed either.

But my emotions are still getting engaged at times. I admire scottishmommy for her ability to be totally self-assured and detached at all times. That's a great skill. I'm not there yet; maybe I can learn this skill at age 46 or maybe I'll need to just accept myself for who I am and learn to deal with stuff _as me_.

Now that I feel okay about sometimes taking a break (even if it makes others think they "won"), and okay about sometimes flubbing up and handling stuff wrong, I also feel very free to just see where this learning-path takes me and my girls.


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## bodhitree (May 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Also, about my not being "on higher ground" -- I think the desire to always be on higher ground can actually be kind of unhelpful. My mom was one of those who wanted me to "never stoop to their level" (the level of the bullies). I saw her "disappointment" if I ever did manage to give a mean and clever comeback.

Mom was the sort who, like me, enjoyed being polite and gracious. Even if some child was openly rude she preferred to take "the higher ground" and assume they had a bad home situation. She tried to get me to feel sorry for the kids who were mean to me. She really, really expected me to be "above it" all the time and if I "slipped" then it was like I'd "thrown my bonnet over the windmill" or something.









This is why it seems so silly to me now that I wasn't the one hurting people, yet I was supposed to be so darn careful that I was always nice to everyone. I now think it's okay for everyone to mess up sometimes. Sure, it's good to learn that there's a better way and a higher ground, and to know that we have the option of rising above crap when we want to.

But if we get some crap on us, we can just take a shower and move on and resolve to do better next time. I'd honestly rather that my girls learn that it's okay to handle things wrong sometimes, so long as they know they're always free to learn from their mistakes and change course, just as their old mom is constantly doing.









For sure I don't think that you need to go out of your way to be polite or gracious or even especially kind to these kids. They are behaving in a really rotten way, and I don't think you need to talk yourself into feeling sorry for them because of potentially bad home situations or anything else. I also don't think you need to try to be perfect or refuse to admit when you're making a mistake. But I still think that it IS a mistake to engage with these kids in any way, especially if it involves calling names or trying to "win" over them. You can't win. You can only refuse to play the game. Right now you are engaging with them on their terms, and I just don't see that going anywhere good for you. It seems to be leading you to act just as childishly as they are, which I would think you'd want to avoid.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Yes, I just need to learn how not be "not engaged" _as me_. I don't know if I'll ever be able to assume a totally bored or deadpan expression. Just as I can't stop the tears if I feel like crying, so I can't stop the smiles if something happens to really crack me up.

Of course, it doesn't crack me up if someone is being disgusting and trying to force me or my girls to share their bodily fluids -- but it does crack me up if they're going to get *mad* because I call disgusting disgusting and decide to go to a waterpark to wash off the filth, LOL.

Ditto with any kind of physical aggression. I'm not going to sit there and laugh if someone's trying to hurt one of my girls or me -- but it actually is pretty ridiculous if some kid's just sitting there screaming obscenities at me for no reason.

Yeah, I need to "get it." Although it's fun getting in touch with my inner child, it's probably not very helpful in the long run. We will try to finish those articles soon.


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## GalateaDunkel (Jul 22, 2005)

You're not doing your kids any favors by deliberately spending long hours in an environment where they are verbally and physically abused. Really I think 10 is too young to learn to "deal" or get some kind of life lesson out of being addressed as "bitch." As a parent my first priority would be to shield my kid from having to hear that in the first place. The "exhilaration" you describe is her getting hooked into the drama. It's actually not a good sign. It may be some sort of stress response/coping mechanism, NOT any kind of personal growth. Ten is too young to use habitual verbal abuse as a growth opportunity. Let her stay innocent for a while longer. As the parent why are you letting it happen in the first place when you have the power to just completely remove the child from the abusive situation? So you can work through stuff from YOUR childhood? As someone with beaucoup childhood baggage of my own, I can tell you it's not worth it. It's so much easier to just take your kid somewhere where she's not getting called bitch all the time.

I get that you think that is not the ideal solution but I think the "ideal" ship has already sailed. You started off trying to appease them (sharing food etc) and when that didn't work you let yourself get pushed into reacting. None of that contributes to what would be necessary to really make it stop, namely asserting credible adult authority and shutting it all down. At this point the only way you could possibly do that is by finding the parents and letting them know you mean business. And it may not be wise to do that because the parents might be cut from the same cloth and who knows, they might get violent? If you're afraid of something like that, you've been out of your depth from the start. If it's like that, no amount of personal growth is going to solve things. The game was already up the first time they called your child "bitch" in front of you and you didn't automatically go ballistic and put the fear of God in them.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I'm trying to not pile on, but just wanted to add that you seem to have kid of missed the point of the articles and I hope you do read the whole thing, which was to just let the bully know they're not bothering you, *not* to actually turn it around on them and essentially bully them. You spoke about the remote control, and the author's point was to not le tthe *bully* have a remote to your emotions/feelings.....not for you to use your own remote on the bully.

The articles advised the kid to just reflect back and sort of "play dumb" to the bully, like, 'do you really think that?' or, 'so?' or 'that's not true, but if you want to believe that I can't change it' , etc. not to give whatever it is back to them or engage in a battle of words, or a snarky comment.

There's a fine line sometimes between being assertive and being aggressive, and unfortunately I think you crossed it with the "disgusting" and "spitty girls" comments. It was sinking to their level, not showing them you aren't affected by them.

As you're processing this whole thing, I would suggest keeping 2 things in mind: The golden rule, and 2 wrongs don't make a right.

I hope you're able to come to a middle ground soon where you're teaching your daughters to not be affected by the people, but at the same time not throwing your own barbs out at them, either mentally or verbally - or even using demeaning language about them in other conversations with your daughters, which really is no better than what they were doing. Telling the girls that you don't want to be spit on and moving is plenty, there's no need to embellish with negative adjectives describing the girls. I learned this kind of the hard way, because when talking to my firstborn about smoking I said it was a nasty, disgusting habit that made people stink and hurt their bodies a lot.......and when my son was 4, there was a person smoking outside a building we were walking into and my son loudly said something about that disgusting person that smelled gross with the nasty cigarette.....and I was mortified. Since then I use more neutral language when talking about other people and their issues, and keep the focus on why we do what we do, not bringing any holier than thou into it. Factual, scientific based, nonjudgemental, as much as possible. Words like kind, polite, respectful, patient, safe, healthy and then "not" in front are usually pretty neutral but still definitely get the point across, and keep the focus on the _action_ and not the person themself.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Honestly, if it were me, I might make one final interaction with the kids, something like,

"Look. No matter how things got to this point, it's not a good situation we're in right now. This is a public playground, not a private backyard, and we all have the right to be here and play safely. We don't even have to be friends, but we do need to be able to play in the same public space without anyone getting upset or hurt. Name calling, cursing, and anything done to physically hurt people is just not OK. Nobody deserves to be treated that way. We're willing to start over and erase the past like a clean blackboard. We won't, however, put up with being treated unkindly. We will not respond to any unkind words, and if there is any physical harm, we will have someone handle it. "

Or something like that







. Because I agree that you shouldn't have to leave the playground, but at the same time, things are pretty messed up right now and I think being frank, but gentle and firm with the kids and laying out some boundaries might, maybe help. Then again, it might not. I dunno.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I do agree that it's wrong to expose my children to any abuse. This is why we'll hang out while my girls are having fun playing with their friends, but leave when it seems unwise to stay. These bullies do seem to retreat when my 10yo is having a ball with her friends and not paying any attention to them, so maybe the answer is to connect more with her friends and plan times to play there together.

And, of course, to bail whenever the ship seems to be sinking and we're likely to get pulled down with it. I do really feel for some of the other children who'd like to have a safe place to play, and, according to at least one child, it does seem to be safer when I am there. So sometimes I think I'll sail back to the sinking ship to see if I can help make it better, but not, or course, to the detriment of my own children.

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that there was "hours and hours" of abuse going on. Actually there have been hours and hours of playing and having fun, interspersed with some moments of ugliness.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I also think I should clarify that our first encounter with the "b!tch-slapping" little boy occurred about one week ago -- not one month ago. I recently realized that some posters seem to have the impression that we've been dealing with him for a month or more.

With the bully-girls, it has gone on a little longer but been mostly just periodic (not every time) annoying stuff like them asking my 10yo about her bathing habits or my 5yo if she washes her underwear -- and mostly not within my hearing, so it's been more a case of me just encouraging my 10yo not to engage, and just to say something like "none of your business" and move on.

She has occasionally reported one of the girls calling her "ugly little girl" when she passed by. I've really just encouraged her to never answer to any name/description like that because she *knows* it's not her.

She seriously does have a pretty high opinion of her own appearance; she knows she is gorgeous -- not that this is the be-all end-all of life, but when she knows that her face and figure are lots prettier than those of the girls who are being so judging of her appearance, it honestly comes across more to her as jealousy than as any sort of genuine assessment of her real appearance.

And when they recently started calling her "wedgie-girl" while she was riding her bike, it honestly never occurred to me to go ballistic about that. I'm guessing that bike-riding is a big no-no to them since I never see them on bikes -- it's probably taboo for girls in their family since you have to do it with your legs apart ...

(I think I already mentioned that one of the bullies is offended that dd1 doesn't clench her legs together as she swings ...and, no, its not because anything "shows" when she swings as she always wears shorts or pants to the park).

Up til now, the bully-girls' crap has been stuff that's been pretty easy to blow off -- except that sometimes I've heard about some remark of theirs and *chosen* to let it tick me off to the point where I made some insulting remarks about (but not to) them. I was talking with my own dd, which I felt I had a right to do since they say whatever the heck they want to say about us --

But, of course, just because I do have a right to free speech, this doesn't mean that what I freely say is always the right thing to say.

That said, I have been thinking about these kids' trashy speech -- I mean, there's a reason why the most clever retort I could dredge up was "nasty, spitty girls" -- it's because I didn't grow up in an environment in which some of my neighbors preferred to address friends and loved ones with endearing terms like "B!tch" and "M_F_."

Of course, it's not everyone here who does that -- but it's certainly more than the zero percent in the suburban neighborhood of my childhood.

While I can't totally prevent my girls from ever hearing this trash-talk, I certainly do have a responsibility to expose them to other worlds, so that even though they'll be aware of the trashy world, they'll know it's not all there is and it will not be the norm to them.

I want them to know they have many wonderful options to choose from, which probably means we can spend some time at this playground, but also need to balance it with time spent among people who have more of an appreciation for beautiful language and beautiful living (some of whom frequent this neighborhood park, by the way, and maybe they will frequent it more if we can improve the atmosphere).


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Well, we stayed home yesterday and did some cleaning. Then I did a few hours of English lessons over the phone last night and slept in til around 2pm. I woke up to the sound of rain, and actually thought that's cool, we'll get another little break today.

But dd1 was really depressed at the thought of staying in for two days in a row, so I got ready and we got in the van and headed over to the playground. It was raining lightly and I kind of figured it was going to a be a disappointment to dd1 since no other kids were likely to be there.

But we actually reconnected with a teen boy who dd1 had had a lot of fun playing with one day last summer. He seems a little developmentally delayed, and we actually haven't seen him much since then. I wonder if he avoids times when the bullies are out there?

Anyhow, he and dd1 swung together, and then he played tag with both girls for a while before he left. He actually reminded me of myself as a much younger teen and preteen. Being ostracized by my peer group, it did wonders for my self esteem to walk home from school and sometimes find myself surrounded by a bunch of little kids in the neighborhood who all adored me and wanted my attention.

It seems like every time I feel like maybe we should just ditch this playground, I get reminders that there are really nice kids here who may be spending much of their time indoors in nice weather in order to avoid getting picked on. Of course, I don't know all the reasons why we haven't seen this boy so much; I'm just guessing at the possibility that the kids who've been mean to my dd's might be mean to him, too.

I know this thread has been heavily-focused on my own particular situation, but I'm really hoping to hear from some others who may be dealing with similar situations in their own neighborhoods. It makes me sad that so many nice families kind of abandon the inner city neighborhoods, and I'd love to hear from others like us who are staying and trying to make it better for everyone.

I will keep sharing updates about our own situation for anyone who's interested, but I don't want this to be just about me.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I've gone a little further reading the articles, and I see now that I really was wrong to seek help from the police when the boy wouldn't stop throwing acorns at me. Since it wasn't phyisically hurting me, I could have ignored it or moved or something.

I also see that I've been entrenching myself and my girls in unlife by actually hating these bullies. They can sense my hate and they feel powerless to do anything but hate us back.

I need to recognize that they are composed of the same matter that forms the flowers, trees, and earth, as well as my girls and me. I don't have to "make nice" and give them our food, and I don't have to say anything to them or anything, but I just need to release myself from the hate that I hadn't even realized that I'd lately been allowing to strangle me.

Now I'm feeling much more connected to life again, and much more freed from the spirit of unlife that they've been exhaling all over that playground.

I honestly don't feel attached to outcomes any more in this situation. Others can choose hate and unlife if they want to. We're going to live, and I won't give up trying to make our neighborhood a safe place for life and love to flourish. I'll probably take occasional breaks, but I won't ever give up completely.

Thanks to anyone who is still listening, and I still welcome everyone's input.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Also, to the poster who was concerned that I've devoted too much of my life/energy to these bullies: I'm realizing that, just as the authors of _Cradle to Cradle: Remaking the Way We Make Things_ say, there is no waste if all waste is converted to food.

I'll add to that, no time is ever wasted that is time spent learning to live more fully.

Whatever time and evergy I've "given" to these bullies is now flowing back full-circle to me. And, who knows, maybe at some point it will flow back to them ... it will just be up to them to decide whether they want to choose life or not.


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

I just wanted to chime in and say that I really admire the amount of thought you've put into this and the amount of personal growth it's brought you.

I also want to say that I think I'd probably have reacted the same way as you have. I despise injustice and would have probably have felt that it was deeply unjust that my children and I were driven away from a playground by the bad behavior of others. I would have also been boiling mad at the thought that other kids, who might not have had the parental involvement that your kids do, would also have been driven away. I would have been furious that the other kids had "won".

There's a playground in our (very nice) neighborhood that happens to be near the methadone clinic (yes, it's in our very nice, high rent district!). The methadone addicts will gather there after they pick up their daily dose. Let's face it (and don't flame me . ... I'm calling it like I see it and like other parents see it), they look bad, they smell bad, they objectively do leave lots of trash around, and it's not a very good feeling for a mom with a small child to go there. There have been lots of complaints about them and the police do come by, but it's a public place and there's not much the police can do. When DS was younger, I made a point of going there. It's a great place, a great park, close to our house, and I felt, like OP did, that I needed to reclaim it.

This is a completely different situation because the addicts were adults and completely left us alone or, occasionally spoke to us in a friendly way ("What a cute little boy. I don't talk to my kids anymore, but .. .. . ", etc.). The OP's situation is different with kids. However, I'm only pointing this out to say that I sympathize and I completely "get" her desire to reclaim her neighborhood and not bail out and be driven away. After all, in *some* cases (and I don't know whether or not this is one of them!), it really does only take one person to slowly effect positive change.

OP, maybe not every move you've made has been the right one. I'm not sure. But I say







to you for trying, for being so self-reflective and for really really trying to make your neighborhood a better place.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Thank you so much for your support, DariusMom! I really respect you for working to reclaim your neighborhood park, too!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DariusMom* 
OP, maybe not every move you've made has been the right one. I'm not sure. But I say







to you for trying, for being so self-reflective and for really really trying to make your neighborhood a better place.

I definitely agree that I've done lots wrong here. Worst of all, I let myself get sucked into a vortex of hate, prejudice, and unlife. I let myself breathe in the stale air these bullies were putting out, as if they were the source for my life and mental state, rather than breathing in new life so I could breathe some fresh hope into the situation.

I think that without working my way all the way through this process (which the bullying articles have been instrumental in helping me to do, and I'm sure this is just the beginning and not the end of my personal work), I would have very easily turned into someone who was hurting the neighborhood more than helping it...

All the more reason to be glad that I started this thread here since this is where (through kathteach) I got hooked up to such a helpful resource.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Hi all! In case anyone's still following, I wanted to let you know that dd1 just had a wonderful weekend hanging out with her friend from the playground -- the one whose dad had initially been upset that I'd called the police. We went by for her on Friday as planned, though we were prepared that her parents might have changed their minds again.

Well, not only did she spend Friday night -- she was having so much fun (they both were) that she called her parents to see if they'd let her stay another night, and they said it was okay with them if it was okay with me. So she stayed a second night, and she was still saying she wanted to stay longer when her parents came to get her on Sunday afternoon.

Dd is thrilled to have a close girlfriend again! Dd did later tell me that when we'd talked about going to play at the playground on Sunday, and her friend had said, "No, the playground is boring! I'd rather stay here and play," dd had wondered if her friend was trying to avoid seeing the bullies.

When we had picked dd's friend up on Friday, two of the bully-girls (one of whom had been doing the spitting the other day) had called her over to talk to them. When she came back to us a moment later, she looked like she was about to cry and dd wondered what was wrong, but her friend didn't want to talk about it. So I told dd it was okay if her friend didn't want to talk about it, and as soon as we all got in the van and took off the girls started having a ball.

When dd and I talked about this later, I just encouraged her to keep on having fun with her friend and I said it's probably best if she doesn't even discuss the bullies with her (dd said she doesn't even think the subject even came up with them the whole weekend; they were having so much fun talking about and doing other stuff).

This girl's 13yo brother hangs out with some of the teens in this group, so she, as his little sister, seems to be pretty much accepted by them, and I kind of get the impression she just likes being friends with everyone and wishes everyone would get along.

Anyhow, it was hot this afternoon so we decided it was a better day for running in the fountains at The Concourse. Dd1 did ask to stop by the playgound for a short time, so we did that first. Dd's friend wasn't out there; a couple of the bully-girls were there but they totally left us alone! They didn't even rush to intercept dd1 when she headed for the empty swing, which was totally unusual and very cool.

So maybe things have changed for the better! Of course, we also only stayed about 20 minutes this time whereas we usually hang out for 2-3 hours, so it's possible they thought they had time to "work up" to something. So we'll see.







At least we are now developing our "winners' mentality," so whatever happens with these kids, all is good in our world.


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## kimsmarkin (Sep 22, 2010)

Are often the only adult in the playground, and I sometimes had doubts on how much of myself to take some of the coincidences, these guys have started my girls, especially my 10yo.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Hi all. Are you ready for some great news? The stuff in these articles is really working, even though I obviously kind of blew it for a while. It really is never too late to turn it all around!

It was hot again yesterday so we went back to the fountains instead of the playground -- and lo and behold a couple of the kids involved in the bullying were there. Dd1 got there before dd2 and I did, and she ran back to tell me that they were being really nice and friendly to her. I said it would be great if they've actually decided they'd rather just get along.

Dd still felt a little suspicious, and at one point asked one of the girls if she was really being nice, or was just getting ready to bully her again. The girl insisted that she was being nice, and dd1 asked her how come she'd picked on her at the other park, and the girl said "We were picking on you because your mom was being a racist."

Dd1 didn't say anything back and just ran to tell me this, and I said something like, "Oh, okay, well you know it's not true, so don't even worry about it." She ran back over to play more in the water, but didn't really interact any more with those kids. A few minutes later she went to the van and got her bike and started riding it. The other kids' mom drove up to pick them up a short time later.

When dd1 and I discussed the "racist" accusation later, I reminded her of what it said in the article about not bothering to defend ourselves against stupid accusations. I suggested that if someone brought up the matter again and said they believed it, she could just say, "You can believe it if you like" (as the article suggests) and then move on and not even engage with this person.

We went back to the playground tonight and both girls had a great time; dd1 spent some time visiting with her girlfriend who'd spent the weekend. The bully-group seemed to be pretty much ignoring us and hanging out on the basketball court, but at one point a bunch of them did come and sit almost directly across from me on the plastic rock wall.

Of course, it's a public place and everyone can sit wherever they like. I was considering moving to a new spot because I got tired of hearing all their loud cursing, but decided to stay put to keep a better eye on dd2 who was playing with someone's puppy nearby. For about a minute, one of the preteen girls came over and sat right next to me on the bench, and called one of her friend's attention to where she was sitting. No big deal.

Then she got up, and pretty quickly the other kids got up off the rock wall; a couple of kids (including the 10yo boy who I'd called the police on previously) had arrived with some bags of cinnammon rolls for this group and they all stood around eating and talking. The boy walked over to where I sat and started swinging the bag around close to my head like he was trying to scare me.

I wasn't going to stress about the possibility of getting hit in the head with a bag of pastry, and pretty soon he asked me, "You gonna call the police?"

I said "Naw," and he swung the bag a couple more times and walked away a few paces. Then dd1 ran over and perched on the rock wall. He suddenly made a beeline for her and got up in her face yelling, "Hey! You at the fountains the other day?!" (he hadn't been there but I guess he'd heard about it from his sisters) and she said she was --

At which point I stood and fimly told him, "You leave my daugher alone -- she's leaving you alone," and he immediately backed away from dd while informing her "You better not EVER go back there AGAIN!" Dd retorted that she'd go back anytime she wanted to --

He started walking around her swinging the bag of pastries near her head; she just sat there calmly, and I just watched closely to make sure he didn't hit her and he never did. After about a minute he stopped and stepped away from her.

Then my crazy 5yo seemed to suddenly notice this boy being mean to her sister, and rushed over to defend her by yelling, "None of yaw business! Do you wash yaw underweah?" -- which for some reason caused him to cry out like he was in pain, and rush over to where his big sister was visiting with her friends as if he was about to tell on my 5yo...

Then he seemed to think better of it and ran off, and of course I had a talk with my 5yo. Then a moment later dd1 came to tell me that he'd run over to her friend, the one who'd spent the weekend with us, and was swinging the bag of pastries at her head. I said that her brother was there and I was sure he would deal with it, and a moment later dd said a couple of the teens had indeed noticed what was happening and rushed to put a stop to it.

By this time it was quite dark and I told the girls I thought we should go home and fix our pasta, and dd2 said she had to pee so this was clearly our exit. I see now that this psychology really does work! We are winning by being happy and successful, and it's totally cool with me if the bullies decide they'd rather stop bullying and be winners, too -- but it's cool whatever they decide because _we've_ chosen the path of total coolness for ourselves.


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## sahli29 (Jan 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
" Do you wash yaw underweah?"

Lol,that was funny! Where in the world did that comment come from your 5yo?

Glad things are working out for you.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mattemma04* 
Lol,that was funny! Where in the world did that comment come from your 5yo?

Uhm, I'm rather ashamed to admit that, back when I was allowing myself to get annoyed with these girls for asking my 5yo, "Do you wash your underwear?" (I guess so they could crack up when she said "No"







), I actually told her that the next time they asked her this she should respond with "None of your business!" or "Go wash your underwear!"

It has really backfired as she now thinks it's funny to just fire it off at people for no reason, LOL...my bad, but I guess it's just one more lesson to me that it's much better, in the long run, to simply not engage with bullies.

Quote:

Glad things are working out for you.
Thanks. Things are much, much better -- but the bullies are still making a few last-ditch efforts to see if they can get me upset. The other night, a girl who I hadn't identified as one of "them" (and so therefore took seriously for a minute) informed me that I had something in my hair.

I kept running my hands through my hair and saying, "Did I get it?" and she kept saying, "No, it's still there," and I was about to just say, "Okay, I'm sure I'll get it when I comb through it tonight" -- when she finally gave her punchline of "It's little bitty bugs. It's LICE!" and a couple of the bully-girls who were sitting near me (they often seem to want to congregate around me of late) cracked up laughing.

I just said, "Okay, thanks" ... and a moment later when I looked up from my book and turned to check on my girls who were playing in the field, I noticed a girl (I think it was the "It's LICE!"-girl) standing right behind me blowing something at the back of my head through a straw. She said "Hi" and I said "Hi," and I just gathered my things and said, "I think I'll go catch up with my girls now"... it was getting dark, so we left a few minutes later.

Some of the bully girls were hollering the words "Ugly!" and "B!tch!" as we left, but since they talk so crude to one another, I'm honestly not sure if they were directing it at me or themselves, and it really doesn't matter of course, since my name is not "B!tch" or "Ugly"







. We'd had a couple of hours of fun there before the bullies even showed up; they seem to prefer the dark.


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## wookie (Dec 12, 2008)

glad things are going so well with you mammal mama. really, though, it seems like these kids are bent upon bullying YOU?!?! it's so bizarre...i've never really heard of kids enjoying bullying adults. wow.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

wookie, I think it's because I initially fed into the whole thing by reacting to the things they were saying to my dd and engaging with them.

Most kids my older dd's age go to this playground unaccompanied by parents, and deal with whatever comes up on their own.

I now realize I needed to have more confidence in my dd's ability to deal with the verbal stuff. For instance, as I already shared in the thread about misogyny, dd just handled it really well when one of the bullies recently stood over her while she was hanging upside-down on the gymnastics bar.

Every time she swung up, he was meeting her with the words, "You're dusty," and she just kept cheerfully saying, "That's nice," and in a little while he'd given up since there was no upset reaction.

I think these kids would really love it if I'd get all upset and go ballistic, and maybe call the police again or something.

A few days ago, my dd had headed over to the basketball court to see one of her friends who was hanging out there. Her friend's older brother, who hangs out with the bullies, walked straight up to dd and said, "Get off the court!" and some of the other bullies were joining him in telling her to get off.

Dd wasn't disrupting a game or anything; there were a few boys shooting baskets and a whole lot of others just hanging around watching. Dd stood her ground and calmly said, "You don't own the court; I can be here if I want to."

And no one seemed to have anything to say to this and they left dd alone after that. But this was the point when some of the girls seemed to get really fixated on me, at times congregating wherever I happened to be sitting.

I'm guessing they'd like me to tell them to get out of my space so that they can start insisting that my children have to stay out of whatever sections of the playground they want to claim as "theirs."

But I'm honestly not that attached to sitting in any particular place; I'm comfortable on the ground and have often sat there at times when the benches were full, or on hot days when the benches were in full sunlight. So I figure it's a public place, if a bunch of them want to crowd onto my bench with me or what-have-you, as long as they're not sitting right on top of me, then they do literally have a "right" to be there.

And I've told my 10yo as much (because it upsets her that these kids have suddenly started crowding me so much at times) ... I can always move if I get tired of their nearness. It usually doesn't last too long anyhow.

Tonight another issue came up, but I actually think it might be a whole new thread topic, so I'll go start it now or soon.


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## ImaSophie (Sep 5, 2010)

I am actually not understanding why you keep going to this park under these circumstances. I truly feel it is dangerous and that if the pressure keeps building someone will end up hurt. When these kids come near you do not engage just relocate to a different area. This whole situation is so twilight zone for me, these kids seem to think YOU are the target and your children are seeing this.

Your oldest has expressed she is distressed for you, and in fact in fear for you with this group of kids that seem intent to harm getting in your space. I think the time has come to really open your eyes and see this is an unhealthy situation and to stop subjecting your children to it.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ImaSophie* 
I am actually not understanding why you keep going to this park under these circumstances. I truly feel it is dangerous and that if the pressure keeps building someone will end up hurt.

I guess I'm not understanding why you think we are in physical danger? No one has actually physically harmed us.

I think that maybe since I am talking a whole lot here about the problem situations we are dealing with, and devoting just a sentence here and there to all the fun times my girls are having with their friends at this playground, the situation looks a lot more problem-heavy than fun.

The actual time spent dealing with problems has been tiny compared to the time spent having fun.

Quote:

When these kids come near you do not engage just relocate to a different area.
Maybe you haven't read my updates? I quit engaging with them a while back.

I certainly do have the power to move to any other area I want to. I don't always choose to jump up off the bench and run to a new spot the minute they decide to come sit by me, but the other day I did move since I didn't particularly want to get hit with spit-wads, though it's not that I feel particularly physically-threatened by spit-wads.

Quote:

This whole situation is so twilight zone for me, these kids seem to think YOU are the target and your children are seeing this.
I do think the kids are rather twilight zonish, but I feel like this is our town, too.

Quote:

Your oldest has expressed she is distressed for you, and in fact in fear for you with this group of kids that seem intent to harm getting in your space.
No, she just thinks it is rude that they are coming to sit on the same bench that I am sitting on, sometimes to the point where one is like two inches from me. It's kind of, you know, the cultural norm that we might sit that close to a lover, family member, or close friend, but we usually allow more space when the other person on the bench is just an acquaintance or stranger.

They are acting kind of weirdish, but I think the intent is not to do physical harm, but, rather, to force some sort of a confrontation whereby we'll end up agreeing on some silly boundaries in order to constrict my children's play.

I think they were p!ssed when they weren't able to make my 10yo retreat from the basketball court the other day, so if they can get to me define some area as "mine," this gives them room to define other areas where my children might want to play as "theirs."

As I've already said, I'm not that attached to sitting in any particular spot. I'd gladly give up the bench and sit on the ground if needed, because I'm there not to commune with the bench but for my girls to have fun. And to read my book of course.









Quote:

I think the time has come to really open your eyes and see this is an unhealthy situation and to stop subjecting your children to it.
One thing I'm accepting here is that no one's ever going to 100% agree with me about what is healthy for my kids. I think I'd rather listen to my kids and to my own instincts on this, but of course I do appreciate your advice.


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## mbhf (Jan 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ImaSophie* 
I am actually not understanding why you keep going to this park under these circumstances. ... I think the time has come to really open your eyes and see this is an unhealthy situation and to stop subjecting your children to it.

I agree with this. I don't think you are in physical danger, but I think this must be awfully hard (and embarrassing) for your children. You just seem so caught up in winning you don't care about anything else. I'm sure your kids have fun a lot of the time. And that's great, but why can't you just leave when the other kids arrive?


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## AtYourCervices (Feb 22, 2009)

It seems like everybody is tiptoeing around this subject but I'm going to ask outright:

Are these kids a different race? I ask because they accused you of being racist. This leads me to believe THEY are being racist towards you and your children. Or at least the ones leading the bullying initiated it due to racism.


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## peainthepod (Jul 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ImaSophie* 
I am actually not understanding why you keep going to this park under these circumstances. I truly feel it is dangerous and that if the pressure keeps building someone will end up hurt. When these kids come near you do not engage just relocate to a different area. This whole situation is so twilight zone for me, these kids seem to think YOU are the target and your children are seeing this.

Your oldest has expressed she is distressed for you, and in fact in fear for you with this group of kids that seem intent to harm getting in your space. I think the time has come to really open your eyes and see this is an unhealthy situation and to stop subjecting your children to it.

I agree 100%. The situation seems to be escalating into something that has the potential to spiral beyond your control. These kids have nothing to lose by tormenting you and your family. If they provoke you into a reaction, they win. If they get tired of waiting for a reaction and do something more overt to harm you or your children, they win. I'm really afraid that your need to "win" or whatever is clouding your judgment, mama. You should have walked away from this mess a long time ago.


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## ImaSophie (Sep 5, 2010)

I would call your 10 year old being hit in the head with a basketball physically harming her. They have thrown acorns at you and your 10 year old, they are swinging bags of food near your head. all of these to me are signs that there is the potential for violence from these other kids.

I have followed your updates and IMO you are still engaging them when they crowd you relocate to a different area. By calling them disgusting and what not you are engaging if their spit is blowing on you just move or leave the park. You don't have to win here if it is emotionally harming your children to continue to see their mother, their protector bullied by teenagers.

What would you advise a loved one to do in this situation? Would you advise them to continue putting themselves in this same situation or would you advise them to take themselves out of the dynamic?


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

OP,
Ive been following this issue since before this thread. There was the intital incident that lead to this thread. I havent really had much to say about it, but now that it is turning into some kind of debate about wheather or not you should be doing this at all, I just want to say this in support of you:

You are a resident of that town. The playground is intended for children and families to play, exercise, and socialize. While it may be less than ideal, and your children may feel embarrassed, this is a learning experience. This is your community too. Do not let these 10 year olds run you off the playground.


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## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

I think that you have become their entertainment and they seem to be organizing their behavior around you. There really isn't any "ultimate win" in this situation. They've upped the ante and are targeting you, which is seriously, a whole different level. I wouldn't count on things not escalating-they have no regard for you as an adult authority figure, or as a person. The lesson for your dd was learned a while back. This behavior doesn't seem to be for her-it seems to be for you, and it's dangerous.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:

You just seem so caught up in winning you don't care about anything else.
I certainly wouldn't see myself as "winning" if I thought my children were being harmed in the process, physically or emotionally. Also, I see winning as loving one another and enjoying life, so IMO it's great if everyone wins.

I do feel like we are winning in that my 10yo now has a couple of pretty close friendships with girls who play with her almost daily at this playground (well, one friend is just there at the weekend because she lives with her mom during the week).

One of these girlfriends spent the weekend with us and is coming over again this Saturday; the other is planning to spend the night the weekend after. This is just wonderful for my dd, who hasn't had close girlfriends like this since her best friend moved away a couple years back.

We do sometimes visit other parks -- but this one is pretty unique in its characteristic of being frequented by many of the same kids every day. At other parks, friendships are less likely to develop because of the awareness that whoever you are playing with this time, you will probably never see again.

Quote:

Are these kids a different race? I ask because they accused you of being racist. This leads me to believe THEY are being racist towards you and your children. Or at least the ones leading the bullying initiated it due to racism.
Yes, we are different races -- but there are kids of our race in their group of freinds, so I haven't rushed to assume that their targeting us has anything to do with our race.

Quote:

The situation seems to be escalating into something that has the potential to spiral beyond your control. These kids have nothing to lose by tormenting you and your family. If they provoke you into a reaction, they win. If they get tired of waiting for a reaction and do something more overt to harm you or your children, they win. I'm really afraid that your need to "win" or whatever is clouding your judgment, mama. You should have walked away from this mess a long time ago.
Have you read the bullying articles? These articles actually say it's supposed to get worse before it gets better. And it actually seems to be getting better, though of course it may not look this way since, as I've already said, I've devoted a lot more space to discussing the difficult stuff than recounting the hours and hours of sheer fun.

Quote:

What would you advise a loved one to do in this situation? Would you advise them to continue putting themselves in this same situation or would you advise them to take themselves out of the dynamic?
Honestly? I'd advise them to read the articles on bullying because it's been life-changing for us.

Quote:

You are a resident of that town. The playground is intended for children and families to play, exercise, and socialize. While it may be less than ideal, and your children may feel embarrassed, this is a learning experience. This is your community too. Do not let these 10 year olds run you off the playground.
Thanks for this vote of confidence!

Quote:

I think that you have become their entertainment and they seem to be organizing their behavior around you. There really isn't any "ultimate win" in this situation.
We are winning by having fun and making friends. They may decide at some point that they'd like to win, too. Or not. Once they realize they won't get a reaction, they're bound to direct their attention elsewhere. We just won't be that interesting once they realize that they're really never going to find that remote control button.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Well, within the last few days or so things had really seemed to mellow out. The bullies quit hanging around me, and seemed to be involved in their own discussions and not the least bit interested anymore in my dd or in our family.

The girls had been having fun playing, and dd1 has been having a great time with her friends, one of whom just came and spent another night over the weekend.

Then tonight some things happened that made me realize that one of these children is pretty mentally-imbalanced. It's actually the same girl who had been so friendly with dd1 at the fountains a short time ago. She had told dd that the reason they'd been picking on her was because her "mom was being a racist." (I don't know if I already mentioned this, but she was also one of the spitting girls.)

Neither dd nor I had reacted to this comment, other than the fact that dd had come straight to me and told me what the girl had said, so I'm sure the girl realized I was aware of it.

Anyhow, tonight all of a sudden this girl started trying to mess with dd1. Dd had been having some run running up the slide and this girl suddenly told her "NO!" and sat on the slide, positioning herself so that one leg was on each slide so dd coudn't run up either one (there are two slides side by side).

So dd just walked away. A moment later dd noticed an empty pop can sitting on the ground and picked it up to bring it to me for recycling, and this girl ran to dd and yelled at her that it was her can. So dd handed the can to her and the girl headed to the trash to throw it away, and dd took the opportunity to run up the slide.

When the girl saw dd heading up the slide, she yelled "Naaaaaoooooooo!" and ran to dd and grabbed a piece of rubber turf that had come loose from the ground and hit dd with it. Dd said it didn't hurt, but at this point she decided to tell me what was going on, since I had been sitting on the other side of the playground and hadn't noticed (the slide faces the other way).

So I put my book up and started watching more closely. Dd said she wanted to run up the slide some more, so I walked over to stand nearby since this girl and some of her friends were sitting on the bench right by this area.

Nobody messed with dd on the slide, but a moment later when dd went running into the grass, this same girl took off after her and made a beeline right for her, holding up the playground-turf like she was about to hit dd again. She caught up with dd pretty fast, and I just yelled, "You leave my child alone!"

The girl immediately stepped away from dd and looked at me, and I just told her that dd wasn't bothering her and she needed to leave her alone. The girl said, "Yes she IS bothering me!" and looked like she wanted to say more, but then the ice cream truck came so she ran to buy ice cream.

A moment later she walked past me and said something like, "Ooh, I can't eat right now because she's so disgusting," and she headed over to the swing area where dd was waiting for a turn. She started telling dd stuff like "You've got lice" and "Yo mama so poor she had to rape a man to get some babies" --

And dd just came to me and told me. I told dd that she just needed to stay away from this girl, so if all she wanted to do was swing then we just needed to go. Dd decided to ride her bike.

Dd started riding her bike, and every time she rode past where the group was this girl was screaming invectives but dd was just ignoring her. A moment later I heard her telling some teenaged boy in the group to "go" and he headed across the playground, near a spot on the track where dd wouldn't be visible to me from where I was sitting.

So I just got up and stood near where the boy was standing, and the boy noticed me watching him so whatever the plans had been, he didn't do anything to my dd. And dd came back, turned around, and headed back the other way.

Then this girl kind of screamed out like she was really angry, and just took off running across the field after my dd. I headed out there too and as she was about to reach dd, I yelled, "You need to step away from my child!" and she stepped away from dd and glared at me.

Dd rode back towards me, and a bunch of kids in this group headed over, looking like they were kind of upset about the whole situation. A lot of people were watching by this point.

And dd2 had noticed me yelling and ran to me, and I just told dd's 1 and 2 that we needed to leave now, and that coming to this park wasn't worth their safety. I didn't care who was listening (and, yeah, some of the kids in this group were definitely listening), but I just told dd1 that the girl wasn't right in the head, and maybe it wasn't her fault, but it wasn't worth it to me to risk dd getting hurt.

We headed back to the car, and this girl followed us but stayed several feet away, screaming invectives at me and saying, "I know you wanna call me a n_____!" (she actually said the word). I got dd2 buckled in and got in my seat, and then one of our friends who is 11 came to the window to talk with me.

This 11 yo has always been very friendly with us, but has also recently become very friendly with this group. She's the same girl who previously told us she felt unsafe when there were no adults at the playground (the girl who one of the boys in this group had molested one time). I figure that she's got to do what she's got to do to cope and live in the neighborhood, and I really respect the way that she's continued to be friendly with us.

She said she'd talk to the girl, and she wasn't sure what was wrong with her, but maybe she wasn't being treated right at home. She said that's usually what makes people want to hurt other people. And I just reassured her that we still want to keep in touch with her, and are still hoping she can come visit in two weeks.

I also said we'll still come to play some at the playground -- but we will leave if a situation like this happens again. My children's safety comes first.

I still haven't given up on our neighborhood or our playground -- but of course my children come ahead of neighborhood restoration. Maybe we will just need to leave the moment we see this girl coming, I don't know. This was the first time I saw her looking quite so deranged, so maybe there were even substances involved.

I hope she gets the help she needs, but of course getting her help is not my job or my business. Since some of the other kids in the group actually looked upset and concerned about the way things were developing, maybe the majority of the group has lost interest in bullying my family. Maybe the majority would really rather not gain a reputation for being wrong in the head.

So I guess we'll just take a breather and take things one step at a time.


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## grumpybear (Oct 5, 2006)

I was just wondering, are you the only adult in this playground? What do the other adults think of their (bullies') behavior? Even if my child weren't the one being picked on if I heard language like that being used on the playground, I'd be bound to say something.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

There were a few other parents there with small children who didn't appear to be aware of the teen/preteen drama. There were also some sports teams practicing in the field who didn't seem to notice anything.

Dd just mentioned a little while ago that after I'd yelled at the girl to step away from her and she'd turned around and headed back toward me, as she went past the girl the girl was saying, "And I was going to ask you to play tag!"

Dd hadn't been aware that the girl had been running up behind her, but she knew the girl hadn't been about to ask her to play. Heck, the girl had been saying all kinds of hateful stuff and had even hit her once.

But I guess the girl might be planning to tell some story about how she'd just wanted to play with my dd and I'd run up and ordered her away, but I feel certain that everyone who's been around her this evening is aware that this wasn't the case.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Wow. If that happened here, I'd call the police. I know there isn't any information to arrest anyone, but they could monitor the park if they know there are problems there. I'm particularly worried that it sounds like this girl could have told a teenage boy to hide and attack your dd.


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## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

I don't mean to sound unsupportive, because it truly sounds frightening. Your dd was assaulted and verbally abused, and an older boy was potentially moving into place to do her harm. There was a group mentality going here, in that none of the group of kids stepped forward to do the right thing. This is serious buisness, and I hope you are in a place to be able to take this in and make safe decisions.

I don't know how you didn't see this coming, frankly. The actions that the kids have been engaging in toward your family serve a purpose for them.. It's not just bullying, IMO. It feeds a need for distraction, excitement, releief of boredom, need to feel in control...many things. Simply by being there, you play your half of that relationship. You are fortunate that it didn't escalate further, but I believe it may in the future.

I get wanting to reclaim your neighborhood, but at some point common sense has to step in. If you had chosen to stop bringing your kids to the park when things were in a bit of a lull with the other kids at the playground, you could have ended on an "up" note-in a place of feeling victory over a very nasty experience. You could have talked about accomplishing your goals, and then talked about needing a change of scenery because you had changed what you could, but that it may be better to move on to a fresh environment.

If you think about this only from your expectations, ie "If I do this, and try to understand this, and respond this way, then it will follow that I can expect a particular outcome", then I think you are bound to miss the larger picture. Often times people's behavior arises out of a need they have, and I don't hear anything that tells me that anything is better, or different for the playground bullies, and so I think that to expect that their behavior, or ability to navigate the "rules of the group" any differently than they did before is faulty.

I hope that you can all stay safe. If you need to make a stand, perhaps know that you have done your piece as an individual, but that for safety reasons it is time to either work as part of a group, or within a different system.


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## peainthepod (Jul 16, 2008)

Quote:

Dd started riding her bike, and every time she rode past where the group was this girl was screaming invectives but dd was just ignoring her. A moment later I heard her telling some teenaged boy in the group to "go" and he headed across the playground, near a spot on the track where dd wouldn't be visible to me from where I was sitting.

So I just got up and stood near where the boy was standing, and the boy noticed me watching him so whatever the plans had been, he didn't do anything to my dd. And dd came back, turned around, and headed back the other way.
Here is a huge waving red flag with bells and sirens and an automated voice screaming "DANGER DANGER DANGER DANGER". These "kids" are ramping up their violent behavior and your children may pay the price.

Please, mama, don't subject your little ones to this nastiness anymore. If you want to take a stand or whatever, that's one thing, but it seems really unfair and potentially very dangerous to keep dragging your kids into it with you. I don't understand why making a point is a higher priority than shielding them from harm (verbal, emotional, and physical) and giving them a safe, gentle, happy place to play.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

Mama,

Gently, at this point I think it's time to let go of going to the park for a good long while. I think you also missed your opportunity with these kids to set the tone of future interactions. They clearly do not respect your presence at all. If you keep going, at some point, that girl may hurt your daughter with you standing right there.

Also, in the future, in a situation like this, I wouldn't read a book OR sit where I couldn't see my child at all times. Yes that sucks but a price one pays for the safety and peace of our kids.

I've kept up with this whole thread and I'll probably be flamed for this but there is no way in heck that anyone would be hitting my kids or throwing freakin' spitballs at me without me going off. Oh those kids think they are so tough but they would see a crazy mama bear come out and roar.


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## Jane91 (Mar 4, 2009)

I know a guy whose parents made a political/social point about living in a certain part of Detroit.

So as a child, he got to deal with numerous house break-ins and violence in his neighborhood, up to and including being caught in the cross-fire during a shooting incident while he walked to school.

Needless to say, he has some issues with his parents and their choices.

While this situation does not sound like it would be impossible to turn around, I believe it would take some very, very deft handling by someone with a lot of skill at interpersonal relationships, a lot of time/energy and a lot of bridge-building with other adults in that area. Is that where you want to be putting your focus?

I can't believe this is the only place your DDs can make friends. There must be activities available at the Y, the local Rec & Ed, local youth organizations, etc., etc. that would give your DDs a place to meet other kids their age.


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## newbymom05 (Aug 13, 2005)

Is this the only playground available or something? There are several playgrounds within a short distance of our house and I've never thought of any of them as "mine" or "ours" that I needed to claim or reclaim. I wouldn't go to a playground I thought was unsafe, and this sounds unsafe. Not to mention, how are any of you having fun if you're always watching your backs?

At this point I'd also start worrying about what you're teaching your children about other children and normal social interactions, esp since you homeschool and may not have daily interaction w/ other kids. I think everyone would agree with me--your playground situation is NOT normal and not something that the majority of parents/kids would allow, let alone seek out. And I don't mean you're allowing your girls to be bullied, b/c clearly you're not--I mean allow as in intentionally take them someplace where you know there will be kids who will be aggressive and mean. Please consider finding a playground where your children can be safe, relax and play. Who cares where it's located?!?


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## outsideofthebox (Aug 25, 2010)

This has gone (from what you felt) a positive learning experience to a dangerous situation. It is NOT ok for a 10yo to repeatedly hear about someone raping their mother (or whatever the joke was), being called ugly, dirty, b!tch or M Fer. It is NOT ok for a 10yo's safety to be at risk. It is NOT ok for a 10yo to see her mother get repeatedly bullied.
It doesn't matter the reasons behind the bullying and it doesn't matter that you are entitled to play at this park. It DOES matter that your children grow up safe and in a nurturing environment. It isn't about winning and losing a fight. It IS about loving your children and knowing what is best for THEM.
It would be nice if you could let your children play at your local park and gain friendships but not to the detriment of their well being.


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## bea694 (May 20, 2006)

Mama, please, please don't go back there again.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I agree that we should not go to this playground for a long, long time. Yes, there are other playgrounds in our neighborhood but, sadly, alot of them seem to have taken out their swingsets and not to have as much equipment that's interesting to my oldest. We'll keep looking.

I don't know where anyone got the idea that I was saying this was the "only" place where my children could make friends. I had said that it's the only place where we experience continuity, in that we see a lot of the same children every day. Which has been positive in a lot of ways but, of course, the positives do not outweigh the negatives of this becoming a dangerous situation.

Last night I really woke up to the fact that the advice in these bullying articles clearly cannot work in dealing with abnormal children. And even the author of the articles has said that with mentally-unbalanced people, you just need to keep your distance.

I agree with finding new places to play and taking a long break from this playground -- at least for the time being, since I've noticed over the years that people with difficult home situations in this neighborhood tend to move a lot, so it's possible that in a short time some of these kids and their families will get evicted, which could totally improve the atmosphere of our playground.

So...we may check back in there from time to time, but be prepared to make a quick exit if anything or anybody seems "off." If we do get another chance to enjoy our favorite playground, we'll be more knowledgeable about how to handle bullying from the get-go, which may prevent things escalating, and maybe by then I'll have enough knowledge to make the playground a bully-free zone while we're there, simply by my adult presence.

I agree that maybe this time I had a lot of stuff surface from my own bullied past, and I mishandled some things, so I'm not the one who's going to be able to turn "this" situation around. But maybe someone else will, since I'm not exactly sure that the problem is going to go away just because we're not there. So if it comes up with children who have more skilled parents, maybe they'll nip it in the bud and turn the playground into a better place.

We will be heading back to that block sometimes because dd1 has two good friends there (she has another from there who has just moved someplace nearby), so sometimes we'll be picking these girls up or dropping them off after overnights and get-togethers. So maybe if we're there and it looks like a good time to play, we'll stop a bit -- but, again, be prepared to cut it short if need be.


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## BunnySlippers (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 

I also think it's great that the parents who were using the park to dispose of their trash got caught and are being prosecuted (this includes the lady sending her dog to poop at the park) -- but IMO it's kind of dumb for the older lady to make it so obvious that she was involved in this whole process.

.

Just finding this thread and have made it to here-
This lady sounds AWESOME and I wish I had her living near our closest park.

I agree with her morals in standing up for the law, what she believes in and being open and honest about it. Can you imagine what a cleaner more decent place this world would be if more people cared that much?

I tend to be very open too, if I see someone break the law I let them know I see it and report it if neccessary


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

BunnySlippers,

I think she has a lot of good qualities, she just doesn't know where to draw the line. As in, children really can't control the behavior of their parents so she shouldn't have kept approaching certain kids and harping at them about the choices their parents were making.

And she created an incident that resulted in an incident, when she followed those children home, talking to them when they were clearly trying to ignore her, and, after they went in, stood out in their yard yelling at them about how they were gonna lose their dog in two days.

They still have their dog, by the way.

Of course, who am I to judge her for mishandling stuff when I'm clearly not the most savvy person in the world myself. I just don't go after people yelling at them, and I sure don't go after kids about their parents' problems.

I think she really made things rough for herself when she initiated a discussion, about this other family and their dog, with the kids in the bully-group. One of the kids in the group called her a n_____ (she is an elderly white woman, and the kids were black), and she went into this long diatribe in which she tried to educate these black children about the history of the word and how it really has nothing to do with race.

It ended up with one of the children accusing the woman of calling her a n_____, and it got pretty ugly (though not physically-violent) from there. We left while things were still "going down." And we don't see this lady there with her granddaughter anymore.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

OP, I'm sorry things turned out like this. I know you had the best of intentions, and I wish you had succeeded. But still, I am glad you have decided to avoid that park for the moment. It must have been extremely stressful on your DD to face that kind of abuse, and I think it is better for her to avoid it.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Thanks choli! I still feel like we're succeeding because we're learning and we're growing together, building friendships and living life. It seems likely that before our neighborhood can really win, it will take enough neighbors really caring about making our streets and playgrounds a safe place for children.

So we'll keep making connections and working for change, but of course it's important to know when it's time to just walk away from a person or situation.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jane91* 
I know a guy whose parents made a political/social point about living in a certain part of Detroit.

So as a child, he got to deal with numerous house break-ins and violence in his neighborhood, up to and including being caught in the cross-fire during a shooting incident while he walked to school.

Needless to say, he has some issues with his parents and their choices.

This is a very good point. At the moment, dd1 is having issues with me because she is very upset about my deciding that we need to take a long break from her favorite playground.

However, down the line, she would probably end up having more issues once she'd learned how different these dynamics are from the normal childhood dynamics she could have experienced at different playgrounds with different kinds of children.

Plus, whether she or her sister would have ended up having issues over this or not, it's clearly not right to expose them to this crap.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Oh, and I don't want to give the impression that my children haven't experienced better kid-dynamics! They have, both at this playground in previous times and in other places!

Dd1 is just pretty new to the whole tween or preteen experience. So this is kind of her first time dealing with adolescent group dynamics...and I sure don't want this to look like the normal expression of that!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Dd1 came in to talk to me as I was waking up this morning. She said she doesn't think it's fair that she can't go to her favorite playground any more, just because this other girl has mental problems (mind you, I honestly don't know if this other child has any sort of psychiatric diagnosis; I just know that someone who's so intent on trying to harm someone who's never done any harm to her is not right in the head...

And here I should add that I'm in no way assuming that people with psychiatric disorders are necessarily violent. My own dad was manic-depressive and was not a violent person).

Of course, it's not "just" that this other girl has problems; this is part of a whole situation that I'd honestly thought was getting better until the incident the other night. The other bullies seemed like the more "normal" bullies described in the article, who were just doing what they did because they got a reaction.

"Those" bullies seemed to have pretty much lost interest in us. They had spent a little time sitting really close to me, but when I didn't react to that it stopped. Whereas it's almost like the lack of a reaction on our part has triggered some sort of weird psychotic response in this girl. I think she's more into causing pain than she is into getting a reaction.

Of course, it's really not "fair" that we live in a community where this kind of person is able to hurt people -- but, then, I probably dropped the ball when I failed to go straight to the phone and call the police about this clearly threatening behavior.

On Friday afternoon, we'll be going to see one of dd's friends who (on the weekends) lives across the street from the playground to plan an overnight for this weekend (I had failed to get their phone #), so dd is wondering, if the bullies aren't at the playground when we go, if we can stay and play for a bit, and just leave if any of them arrive.

I've told her that it seems unlikely that the bullies wouldn't be there by the time we got there -- but, in the event that they aren't, we could stay and play for a bit but both girls would need to be ready to leave at a moment's notice. If we did have to suddenly leave I could take them to our other neighborhood playground.

We've been rather busy this week and haven't explored other playground options -- but I've mentioned to dd1 that our other neighborhood park, though it doesn't have any swings, does have a tennis court. So maybe we can get some rackets and balls and play some tennis together. It also has a nice path for her to ride her bike on.

I'm not really sure why so many parks of late, when they redo their playground equipment, are doing away with the swingsets? So far the nearest other place that I know of with a swingset is about 30 minutes away, so we can go there sometimes but not every day or anything. We do have tons of other playgrounds in this community, they just now seem to be swingset-free.









We probably just need to look harder. Or figure out a way to do the tire-swing thing with one of our trees.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Dd and I just finished up reading those ten articles today, and the article titled "Lose Your Fear" really got us thinking and talking.

When I read the author's assertion that if we're scared of how someone can hurt us physically, this will make the other person feel more powerful, my initial thought was that this is the sort of message we'll be sending if we decide to play at the playground when the bullies aren't there and then leave when we see them coming.

Here I hasten to add that this did not, for one second, make me consider endangering my girls just so that the bullies won't feel they've "won." Actually, if we let what they might think about us determine our actions, then we really would be giving them the power, which the author addresses later in this same article. Because our other basic fear is of what people might think of us, and worrying about that also gives the other person power.

But I really had a lightbulb moment when I realized that there have already been *two occasions* when I've decided to leave because of of something the bullies were doing. And on *both* these occasions, rather than feeling empowered by the realization that they'd "made" us leave, they were angry and upset.

The first time was when I got disgusted by the two girls' spitting, and my girls and I decided to go cool off in the fountains. Whereas I'd kind of expected them to gloatingly laugh at us as we headed to our van, they were angrily yelling and their faces were clearly upset. They did not seem to feel the least bit empowered by the fact that we'd left them behind for another fun place.

The second time was the other night when I got concerned by the one girl's determined intent to harm my child. Again, our leaving did not seem to make her feel like she'd got control. She followed me in a rage, stopping some feet away from our van as I buckled in my youngest, and she was yelling stuff like, "I know you want to call me a n_____!" (which of course I've never wanted to do and never done).

So, who knows, if we do sometimes play there and then leave the moment the bullies arrive, maybe they'll feel like they're in control -- but maybe not?

I'm not saying that what they might or might not think should determine our actions. My decisions need to be based on what's best for my own children. It is just very interesting to me to realize that these particular bullies may not necessarily respond by feeling empowered if their presence "makes" us leave the playground.

Dd and I discussed this as we were reading, and she agreed that our leaving those two times clearly did not make the bullies feel like they had power over us. I'm glad she sees this now, because at first she was bugged by the idea of us letting them "win."

Now we're thinking that any time we go there, we should agree together on a plan of where we'll go next should our playtime get cut short by the bullies' arrival.

Of course, as an experienced mom I also know it's a lot easier to transition if I'm saying something like, "Okay, girls, let's go play tennis now" or "Let's go to the bicycle park now" or "Let's go hike the nature trails now" ... and not just saying, "Come ON, we have to go NOW!"

And sometimes one or two of our dds' friends may want to come along, and if it's okay with their parents, we certainly have the room.

And, incidentally, my dd's may very well fall so much in love with some of these alternate places that they'll quit feeling such a yen for their current favorite, and get a new favorite. We'll see.


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## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

They did hurt your dd physically, and threatened further harm.

I don't understand this, and I think that you are way too invested in itellectualizing this experience. It doesn't matter what the articles say. Your dd was assaulted at the playground. These kids were intent on harming her. I don't blame your dd for persisting in wanting to to play at a spot she loves-when you've been well taken care of, and relatively sheltered it can be hard to really "get" that actual harm can come to you. My own kids were like this.

But, it's your job as a mom to take responsibility for making the tough decisions, such as, I will not alllow my children to be in a place where harm can come to them. Maybe your kids won't like it, and maybe it's not child-led, but at a certain point parents need to make some of the tough calls.

Kids need to know that their bodies and their well being are sacred. They can be immensely disturbed by the thought of harm coming to their parents. Safety is paramount in a young childs life. Your kids would seem to have an advantge in life that the playground bullies don't have, and you are not using it. The bullies don't seem to have a hands on, present, guiding force in their lives helping them make right, and safe decisions. Your kids do-it's you, and yet you continually guide them back to a place of danger for them, and you.

I think all this waffling is harmful-we will go back, we won't go back, we'll go back under these circumstances... You are engaging in behavior that keeps this drama alive. Can you not find some other positive activity to engage in with your kids? Just because they "want" something doesn't mean it's safe or right. Sorry for the book, but it's distressing to think that you would allow your kids to return. On some level this feels like a bad relationship that you are trying to fix, and I really wouldn't want to model that for young girls.


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## bodhitree (May 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karne* 
They did hurt your dd physically, and threatened further harm.

I don't understand this, and I think that you are way too invested in itellectualizing this experience. It doesn't matter what the articles say. Your dd was assaulted at the playground. These kids were intent on harming her. I don't blame your dd for persisting in wanting to to play at a spot she loves-when you've been well taken care of, and relatively sheltered it can be hard to really "get" that actual harm can come to you. My own kids were like this.

But, it's your job as a mom to take responsibility for making the tough decisions, such as, I will not alllow my children to be in a place where harm can come to them. Maybe your kids won't like it, and maybe it's not child-led, but at a certain point parents need to make some of the tough calls.

Kids need to know that their bodies and their well being are sacred. They can be immensely disturbed by the thought of harm coming to their parents. Safety is paramount in a young childs life. Your kids would seem to have an advantge in life that the playground bullies don't have, and you are not using it. The bullies don't seem to have a hands on, present, guiding force in their lives helping them make right, and safe decisions. Your kids do-it's you, and yet you continually guide them back to a place of danger for them, and you.

I think all this waffling is harmful-we will go back, we won't go back, we'll go back under these circumstances... You are engaging in behavior that keeps this drama alive. Can you not find some other positive activity to engage in with your kids? Just because they "want" something doesn't mean it's safe or right. Sorry for the book, but it's distressing to think that you would allow your kids to return. On some level this feels like a bad relationship that you are trying to fix, and I really wouldn't want to model that for young girls.











It just seems like you're way overthinking this and have been from the beginning. It's actually very simple. You need to make a firm decision not to go back to that playground, and then you need to stick to it without waffling or reconsidering. I think part of the problem in this situation is that you've been focused on thinking about it on a high level (what is the moral thing to do, what psychological forces are at work here, how your actions accord with your spiritual values) while the bullies are functioning on very direct physical and emotional levels ("this racist lady is being mean to us, how can we get back at her"--which of course is just how _they_ see it, I don't think for a minute that their perception has much to do with reality).

I still think you really need to take a good long break from this playground. Even if you go there when the bullies are not there, there's a good chance that they'll show up and then you'll need to deal with that in some way. Just stay away! You're making it way more complicated than it is or needs to be.


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## Qestia (Sep 26, 2005)

I've been lurking on this thread for a long time. We live in an urban area, now a nicer neighborhood than when DS was born, but there are still occasional issues with unattended other children.

I just want to say I agree 100% with what karne said.

Personally, I will not allow my child to be abused--verbally and certainly not physically. I kind of operate in life from the assumption that I cannot change other people's behavior. So that does involve leaving situations where I do not like the behavior going on.

There are other playgrounds for you to go to.

During some periods, we would talk to our closest playground and keep walking if certain people were there.

My #1 job is to protect my child. Not to teach them to protect themselves--that might be #2 or farther down the list. My job is to protect them at all costs. I would not allow them to be in the kind of situations you have been describing and it actually pains me that you have allowed your children to be subjected to this abuse. What you're teaching them is not "peace" or "taking back your neighborhood"--you're teaching them that it okay for them to be abused and they need to put up with it.

Gosh, I hope that doesn't sound harsh because you really do sound like an awesome person. I know I'm not there and I'm sure you are doing your best. This is just what is looks like from my vantage point.


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## Jane91 (Mar 4, 2009)

I am wondering if your DD has an interest or an investment in the drama? The way she is so focused on this particular location despite all the scariness of what's gone on the past has me surprised and wondering.

It reads a bit like a girl with a who likes dating "bad boys" -- all the excitement outweighs the risks.

I also found it interesting that your DD went back immediately to the slides after the other girl freaked out about her being on them. While the girl certainly had no right to keep your DD off the slides, your DD's action seemed to "ramp up" the agitation/threat level. It seemed an inherently bad choice -- so either she was being naive or perhaps there was some interest in upsetting the other girl further?


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

mammal_mama i admire you for the courage you show out here. for continuing to figure out a way out of this and try and hang there. i love how you are reading up as a family and trying to figure out how far you can go with this.

what a huge learning lesson for your children. esp. since you say most of your time at the park is NOT spent all the time dealing with the kids.

i have always found there is something deeply sad in the bully's life - whatever that may be. and so a part of me always has deep compassion for them. after watching bridge to terabithia my dd has that same attitude too. however you are aware that it doesnt mean they get carte blanche to do anything they like.

i think it makes a huge difference when we approach someone with love and true compassion in our hearts rather than arrogance or fear or anger. i feel we 'talk' more with our body language rather than our words. my dd has experienced this and while her goal is not to turn the bullies in her life into friends, but because she has sympathy for them and knows how to handle bullies (her school is v. v. proactive where this is concerned) dd has turned all her bullies into friends or at least acquaintances. however the bullies were not as bad as your situation.

i am sure this is a family decision you have made and i see your children are willing to deal with a maybe 10% 'unpleasantness' to have 90% fun that they DO have at the park.

i do believe your whole family is getting a HUGE life lesson. and i will give you the benefit of the doubt that if it ever crosses your personal boundary line of safety you will take action. you HAVE SAID 'that at any moment that I don't feel it's benefitting my children, we should bail.' i am sure if your kids were crying they didnt want to go to the park and you forced them to go it would be a different story, but that's not the story here. its the absolute opposite. your kids WANT to go. which shows that the park experience has not been spoiled by the bullies for your kids.

i know when you as a parent stand up it is a HUGE life lesson for our children. while i have never really had to deal with anything like what's happening to you - in my own way i deal with a 'bully' all the time. my exh and its huge to my dd when i dont react and let it go (she has brought it up that she was shocked that i didnt react and i explained why) and when i DO react to keep the boundaries. however i have deep compassion for him because i know where the 'bullying' comes from.

heck i just admire you for coming here and continue to post and open yourself to more variety of feed backs. its not happening here but on many threads many MDC mamas here have behaved just like those bully kids and ultimately the thread was pulled


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## DaughterOfKali (Jul 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
i do believe your whole family is getting a HUGE life lesson.

A difficult one, at that.







It's sad that a few kids can make things so difficult for others.

I don't think I have any bullies on my street but we do have kids who just ignore my son. Sadly, the parents aren't any better.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DaughterOfKali* 
A difficult one, at that.







It's sad that a few kids can make things so difficult for others.

I don't think I have any bullies on my street but we do have kids who just ignore my son. Sadly, the parents aren't any better.









i agree. but i notice those are the ones learnt the best. how sad is that.

i am so sad that you have ignorers on your street mama. that must be soo hard. i know that would devastate my child more than bullies would.


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## GalateaDunkel (Jul 22, 2005)

What karne said.

I grew up in an urban environment, it was always just a given that there were certain places we couldn't go because rough characters hung out there or whatever. This gave me no lasting damage or hang-ups. In fact, knowing who and what to avoid is one of the essential skills of living in the city. Just going anywhere on the theory that you "should" be able to is just unwise.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

I've been meaning to post here as well. Everytime I read the updates, all I think is that "the only thing you can count on is change"--perhaps this is not the time to reclaim this playground. But maybe in six months the dynamic will have changed, one of the more difficult kids will have moved away, the police will be monitoring...change will happen, but it doesn't have to be created by you and your kids right now.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Qestia* 
During some periods, we would talk to our closest playground and keep walking if certain people were there.

This is essentially what we are planning to do -- only in our case, much as I like to walk, for the meantime we'll be driving, not just because of the bullies but because of the high likelihood that at some point we'll need to move on to someplace else.

Quote:

What you're teaching them is not "peace" or "taking back your neighborhood"--you're teaching them that it okay for them to be abused and they need to put up with it.
Honestly, I don't see how agreeing beforehand on an alternate place that we'll go to, if and when the bullies show up, is teaching my girls that they need to "put up with" anything?

My one concern is that my girls generally like a little transition time, so we'll be talking ahead of time about how this is the one place where they will need to be prepared to leave suddenly if need be...and one big part of making the alternate plan ahead of time is that they'll know they have this other fun thing to look forward to if we have to leave suddenly.

I want to add here that I don't see the playground itself as a bad place or as the problem -- I see the bullying as the problem. The bullying only happens when the bullies are there. To me, enjoying the place but just moving on the moment they show up is actually empowering.

And, as I've already said, it's actually okay if our "bailing" makes them think they've got power over us -- I'll just admit that it's been rather intellectually interesting to me see that, thus far, our "bailing" seems to really upset them and not to make them feel empowered. I don't see how my interest is a bad thing, so long as I'm not endangering my children to do "studies" or anything.

Meemee, thank you for noticing what I've previously said -- that most of our time at this playground is fun, fun, fun. The bullies have actually played a very small part in our experience there -- they've just played a large part in this thread since seeking advice about the bullying is the subject of this thread, not "how to have fun" since my girls are pretty good at that already.

Karne, I realize you see it as "waffling" that I would even consider returning to this playground -- but, as I've already said, the playground is great, and my children's friends there are great -- it's just the bullying behavior that is not great. I am definitely not waffling in my decision to remove my family if and when the bullies arrive. I realize that's what I should have started doing a few weeks ago.

We have lived in this neighborhood for years, and were enjoying this playground long before this particular dynamic entered in. I imagine we'll still be enjoying it long after this dynamic has been totally busted, whether by families moving or people growing up or what-have-you.

Of course, it's possible that this dynamic previously existed and we weren't aware, since it wasn't directed at us when my girls were younger. Kind of like the parents who are now bringing their littles and seem pretty absorbed with them and unaware of whatever the "tweens" and teens are up to.


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## shnitzel (Jan 6, 2010)

One thing you haven't really addressed in all these posts but seems to be an underlying current in what the bullies are saying is that is seems like there is a race/culture issue here. I have been following this thread and thinking a lot and it seems like the bullies are always bringing up race. It doesn't seem to be your issue but since the bullies bring it up time and time again maybe what is going on has less to do with your girls and more a racial perception and there might be little you can do about it.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

DaughterOfKali, we've sometimes had the frustration of "ignorers," too.







I think it's actually been harder for me than for dd1, because it's so painful for me to watch her trying and trying to get the attention of some friend who she had previously played with but who is now ignoring her.

I'm trying not to get overly-involved with how my dd deals with stuff like this, but it's hard because of my being right there and seeing so much of it.

I'll admit that I actually have been guilty of taking dd aside and telling her stuff like, "She is ignoring you and, the harder you try to get her attention, the more she's going to ignore you, because I think this child likes the feeling that, by ignoring, she can get other kids to pursue her. It would be better if you move on and find something else you enjoy. Then maybe she'll realize that it would be really fun to play with you."

But...I remember my own mom and grandma telling me stuff like this, so I realize it's hard when you're a kid and you're not into "understanding" all the power-dynamics that are going on -- you just want to have fun playing with your friend. And of course there's no real guarantee that ignoring the ignorer is going to make her decide she wants to play...

Jane91, my dd has made more friends at this location than any other. BUT I think you may have a point about the drama being really interesting to her. It has sometimes given me a double-take, to see the way my dd has just boldly gone wherever she's wanted to go on this playground, without regard for where these bullies are sometimes clustered.

Dd1 has actually been bold like this all her life. I still remember when she was about eighteen months old and we were at the laundromat. She was just walking around and around as she liked to do, when dh and I saw a bigger girl (about age three maybe) step right into dd's path and glare at her in a rather threatening way.

Dd just stepped forward and got right in this girl's face and stared back at her -- only I think dd was smiling, not glaring like the other girl. The big girl immediately stepped aside and let dd pass. So I guess that dd has early on got the idea that it's okay to just "go ahead" with whatever you want to do regardless of what bully might be trying to stop you.

I do think it's a good idea for her to learn more about keeping herself safe -- and, actually, when she goes out riding her bike around our block, she IS very aware of other people and often turns around and rides back home rather than going right past someone she perceives as "creepy." So she's certainly not just oblivious to all kinds of danger, it's just new to her to realize that some other kids near her own age might be dangerous.

When the 11 yo told us about how the teen boy had sexually harrassed her, it really had an impact on my dd, who had been aware that there were such things as molestation and even rape -- but simply hadn't thought of kids as ever being the perpetrators.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shnitzel* 
One thing you haven't really addressed in all these posts but seems to be an underlying current in what the bullies are saying is that is seems like there is a race/culture issue here. I have been following this thread and thinking a lot and it seems like the bullies are always bringing up race. It doesn't seem to be your issue but since the bullies bring it up time and time again maybe what is going on has less to do with your girls and more a racial perception and there might be little you can do about it.

Yes, I realize that at least one of the bullies does seem to be very, very focused on race. When my dd told me about that girl's comment to her, at the fountains, that they had picked on her because her "mom was being a racist" -- I figured that this was one of many instances where it was definitely good to abide by the advice the article gave about dealing with rumors.

Basically, to not make any attempt to defend myself since that would really just suck me into an endless cycle of defense and denial. I was really glad that my dd just walked away from the girl when she said this, came and told me, and didn't try to discuss the issue or to defend me with this girl.

I mean, if this girl thinks I'd be "cool" with her behavior if she were white, then her mode of reasoning is awfully, awfully not smart, and I'm not sure if there's any cure for that degree of not-smartness.

Also, we are friendly with people of all ethnicities, so I think anyone with any sense who hears this rumor will see it for the nonsense it really is. The "others" will just see it how they see it, and I think you're right that there's nothing we can really do to help these people to see things clearly.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

We went back today to make sleepover arrangements with one of dd's friends who lives across the street from the playground, and dd's friend's family wasn't home yet.

Since some of the bully-group was already at the playground, we didn't go there; we just headed straight over to the other park in our neighborhood. This other park is about a 25-30 minute walk to the north and east of our house, whereas the playground where the bullies hang out is about a 20 minute walk to the south and west of us.

Even though dd1 had initially thought that she wouldn't have as much fun at this other park (because even though it has two playrounds the swings have been removed), she actually did have a blast on some of the climbing equipment and also this thing that spins around, and there is a whole lot more space for bike-riding there, too. Plus the tennis courts for when we get rackets.

It seems like a whole different atmosphere, and all of the teens we saw there seemed to be part of family-groups with the parents actually present, so we didn't hear any cussing or anything. I commented to dd1 that if she gets to the age where she doesn't enjoy the equipment so much, since she is learning to knit at our homeschooling co-op, she might sometimes enjoy bringing her knitting along and just hanging out.

I just have a feeling there may be other kids like my dd in this community who would love to learn to knit but whose moms might be just as clueless about it as I am. So she might even get to know some new people because of her new interest in knitting.

When it got dark, we drove back by dd's friend's house, and she and her dad were home then so we arranged the sleepover for tomorrow. It was really a godsend that we went back, because we also saw one of dd's other friends out on the street there with her mom.

This was dd's friend who had spent the night last weekend, and on Monday we'd learned that her parents had suddenly split up Sunday night and nobody knew where to find the mom or kids. Dd was so worried that she might have lost touch with this friend forever -- but it turns out that they are now living very close to the other park, the one we had so much fun playing at tonight.

Her mom said her dd would be thrilled if we dropped by when we were going to this park to invite her to come along. So now it looks like this other park may end up being even more fun for my girls to hang out at than the old favorite!


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