# Just found out I'm having a boy, tell me about circumcison...



## Love2learn (Jun 3, 2004)

Why do you chose not to?
I don't know anyone who has chosen not to. Is it because of the pain?
My SIL asked if we were going to circumcise and I told her I don't know yet. (I need to learn about it, I have no clue about either side)
She then tells me how unhealthy it is to not circumcise and how when he gets married, an uncircumcised penis will hurt the woman during sex?!?!?
Also , most of my friends (Christians) mention, "Well, it's in the Bible"
Anyway, I want to be well informed so where do I start reading about all of this?


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## SagMom (Jan 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Love2learn*
Anyway, I want to be well informed so where do I start reading about all of this?

Right here is a good starting place. Browse around, ask questions.

Your sil is misinformed. The forskin serves a purpose. Why would you surgically remove a perfectly healthy, functioning, body part? Circ is a social tradition and nothing more--there is no medical reason to remove the foreskin in a newborn.

The issue of pain compounds the reasons not to circ--yes, it's painful. It's surgery. The actual proceedure is painful, recovery is painful (imagine peeing on an open wound!)

Asking, "Why not circ?" is good, but also ask yourself "Why am I considering circ?" Are there any other body parts you're considering having removed? I'm sorry if that sounds harsh--circ is harsh.


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

I chose not to because it was not medically necessary. It's basically "cosmetic surgery" and I don't feel I have the right to do that to my son...

"Unhealthy not to circumsize"... Actually all of the major medical associations (AMA, AAP, etc.) say there is no medical reason to circ...

"Hurt the woman during sex"...I don't think that's true... The penis came with that foreskin, and the penis was created for sex. It seems like the penis would have been made perfectly for the job it was to do. Besides, many women and men state that sex using an uncirced penis is actually more pleasurable.

"It's in the Bible"...Yes, Jesus was circed...but Jesus was Jewish. It was a sacrifice... For Christians, the sacrifice was replaced by Jesus' death. Circumcision was never made necessary in the Christian faith.

If you want more info, ask Loving_My_Babies...she's got a good video...


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## sahli29 (Jan 23, 2004)

This article is old,but I just came across it last night and thought it was pretty good.http://www.post-gazette.com/healthsc...990316cut4.asp

It just makes sense *not to* circumcise boys. I mean what an insult to males to say-you can't clean yourself,so we are going to cut of parts we now acknowldege have important functions. Sex is actually more comfortable with a normal(intact) man.
Circumcised men are missing quite a few parts. A lot more just than foreskin is cut away during a circumcision. As I told my dh the other week... I would be pretty angry if someone had cut off parts of my genitals when I was a kid. Now ofcourse girls are protected by law against genital cutting.Males on the other hand still have no protection mainly just because circumcision has become the norm in this country.Old habits are hard to break especially when it comes to sexual parts,and when religion and coming of age ceremonies are involved. Most of the world does not circumcise their males,and they are horrified that the US does it. Here it is now big money to harvest foreskins.Foreskins are good...but only after they are cut off an infant!
Thankfullly despite the continued push to find valid reasons to cut boys the circ rate in the US is nearing a 50/50 mark.

Best wishes in your reseach. Above all consider what your son would want.The choice to alter his genitals and sexuality forever really should be up to him. Cut or intact- boys get infections.You treat the infection and move on.I have not had a sinlge issue with my intact boy that is almost 3,and even if I did amputation would not be a treatment course I would foloow,lol

Girls get more infections than boys,but we stopped female circ in this country a while ago.Yes,the US actually cut boys and girls,and used similar excuses to justify it.You can certainly find doctors who will cut adult women who choose to have various parts trimmed up. As with women the men should be able to grow up normal and then decide on their own.There was a Christian article that I came across.Will add it to this thread if I can find it again.

Here was that Christian article:http://www.christianitytoday.com/cpt/2000/003/5.42.html

None of the *benefits* of circ mentioned in this article like reduced UTI,penile cancer,std are proven and valid.No country supports routine circ for all boys for medical benefits,because there are no benefits.

Also, in regards to the mom who circed her 5yo because he was red and infection prone(then circed her next son to avoid this problem).It just sounds like her doctor did not treat the actual problem to alleviate the symptoms.The cure all is to remove the part.No part=no infection. What other parts do we cut off of our children instead of treating? None unless it is dead tissue.Most people just think the foreskin is just a useless piece of skin that is expendable. Also in many cases the child is being retratcted since infancy,and this causes damage since some children do not before fully retractable till their teen years,and hormones kick in to break down the tissue holding the foreskin/glans together.

Again best wishes!


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## diane1969 (Dec 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllyRae*
"Hurt the woman during sex"...I don't think that's true...

I can tell you that is definately not true. When I first had sex with my husband, in the dark, I did not even know he was not circumcised!







: It wasn't until the next day when we woke up and I was playing around that I noticed (the first one I had ever seen!) I thought it was fantastic; this new toy for me to play with!!

I left my son exactly the way God/nature made him. It is elective, cosmetic surgery and just as my son has a right to choose whether he wants a nose job, or a tattoo or an earring, he also has the right to choose whether he wants the top of his penis cut off.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

For me and my hubby, it came down to this: our son is not our property, he has rights to his own body. If I took away his choice I could never feel good about myself as a person. By leaving him his foreskin, he still has a choice.

If after he is 21 and feels that he needs it done, he can still do it. And live with the decision HE made.


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## Nathan1097 (Nov 20, 2001)

I chose not to because of the pain but also because I didn't think I should be taking that much of someone's sexual anatomy away. Less is not more, in this case, I figured! (I've never heard that foreskins will hurt a woman during sex! That's a new one...! )

Please see the link in my signature here- its a website I've put together on the subject. Easy to read, but much to think about.


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Love2learn*
Why do you chose not to?

When I was a child, I felt as if I had been violated. As I got to know more about it as an adult, the reasons just started piling on top of each other. I've got dozens now.

Quote:

I don't know anyone who has chosen not to.
There are probably more than you know. Currently, just over half of boys are circumcised. Geography has a lot to do with it. If you live in the west coast states, less than 4 of every 10 boys are circumcised. There is also a strong movement away from circumcision in the New England and Mid Atlantic states and individual states scattered around the country. It could be that the hospital in your town circumcises almost all boys and in a neighboring town 20 miles away, few are circumcised. Doing it because everybody else does it is a poor way to make parenting decisions. I love your screen name because I love to learn as well. That's what you need to do before making this parenting decision. Many of the decisions you make can be changed later but circumcision is one of those one time things that can never be changed. It is absolute and permanent.

Quote:

Is it because of the pain?
Certainly there is pain. There is usually pain even with anesthesia administered. The AMA found that 96% of boys get no pain relief or inadequate pain relief. We also tend to forget post-op pain. That is, the pain that will go on as a result of the amputation for several days to a couple of weeks. We have had many mothers relate their experiences of their boys screaming for weeks every time they change their boys diapers. It is obvious that most are in pain and it appears that they fear that pain as they remember it for a good while after it should have stopped. Just at the prospect of getting their diaper changed, they start screaming because they associate diaper changes with pain.

Quote:

My SIL asked if we were going to circumcise and I told her I don't know yet. (I need to learn about it, I have no clue about either side)
You have found a great place to learn.

Quote:

She then tells me how unhealthy it is to not circumcise
You can take it from The AAP (and every other medical association in the world) that there are no known health benefits offered by circumcision. To the contrary, we have never had an intact boy here with any significant health problem at this forum or any other forum I know of. That is, a problem that couldn't be easily handled with some simple medication. However, we have had a significant number of problems of boys who were circumcised that needed additional surgery. Some of them needed significant surgery such as very painful skin graft surgery. Then there are a few that have been so botched that there is nothing that can be done for them. Every year, a significant number of boys die of the circumcision procedure. I have never heard of a boy dieing because he was intact and as long as I have been involved in this issue, I'm sure I would have if it had happened.

Quote:

and how when he gets married, an uncircumcised penis will hurt the woman during sex?!?!?
It's actually just the opposite. The form and function of the human genitals has been developing for millions of years to perform perfectly and in concert with each other. If there were actually such problems, mankind would not dominate the earth as we do now. We may even be extinct with poorly designed and functioning sexual organs. To the contrary, it is thought that man is the only specie on earth that has sex for the pure enjoyment of it. If it were painful to either partner, that would not be the case. If it were painful, the man would have to rape the woman every time just to have sex and perpetuate the species.

The intact penis has an sleeve of skin that can freely move the entire length of the penis much as the skin of a dog can freely move around. This is a benefit for comfortable sex and can enhance the sexual experience for his partner because she is not distracted by the friction of circumcised sex. Once the penis is circumcised, the shaft skin is no longer mobile and during sex, it plunges in and out of the vagina. This causes substantial friction against the vaginal sphincter. A woman's only defense against this is copious amounts of vaginal fluid to lubricate the area. Sadly, some women do not produce sufficient quantities of vaginal fluid and others are hyper sensitive to this friction. In these cases, artificial lubricant is necessary. As can be expected, these lubricants are widely available in the US at drug stores and supermarkets but in Europe where almost no men are circumcised, it can be difficult to find them. There is a far smaller market there because they are just not needed. What did people do before circumcision got started in America and before there were artificial lubricants? They didn't do anything because artificial lubricants just weren't needed.

As women age, they produce less and less vaginal fluid and after menopause, it is common for them to suffer painful sex. There is even a name for it, something like Female Dysfunctional Syndrome. Well, these women are not dysfunctional at all. There sexual function is just fine, it's just painful. There is evidence this is related to male circumcision in that the friction of years of circumcised sex has permanently damaged the vaginal sphincter causing the pain. It is especially noticed after menopause because the quantity of vaginal lubrication is greatly reduced.

Quote:

Also , most of my friends (Christians) mention, "Well, it's in the Bible"
Anyway, I want to be well informed so where do I start reading about all of this?
I'm sending you some information via PM about circumcision in The Bible as we are not allowed to discuss religion here. For Christians, it is definitely not in The Bible. Quite the contrary, The New Testament admonishes against it.

This forum is a great start. Check the sticky at the top of the forum titled "Web Resources" for research. You can also go to the www.cirp.org library or just type circumcision into any search engine and you will literally get thousands of returns. However, let me warn you, there are many sites that will deliberately mislead you about this issue so carefully consider anything you read and make sure it passes the reason and logic test.

Frank


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## calngavinsmom (Feb 19, 2003)

Hi there and congratulations on your little-boy-to-be







. I have two and they are awesome! We always assumed we would circumcise any boys we had becasue Daddy is, which is one of the biggest reasons people state as to why they chose to do it. Something didn't sit right with me about it though and that along with the prompting of a lady at work(she didn't circ her son) I started to research the topic.

All I can tell you is how absolutely happy and greatful both myself and my dh are now that the information was available and that we left our sons intact.

Here is a link to some info that I found then, and some that I have found in the meantime. I hope this is helpful to you!
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...66#post2174866

Best of luck to you and if you have any spacific questions, fire away. The bunch here is very well versed on this topic!

Take care,
Tara


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

I'm going to go through and answer each question.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Love2learn*
Why do you chose not to?
I don't know anyone who has chosen not to. Is it because of the pain?

Partly its because of the pain. But mostly its that the foreskin and frenulem serve an important role to him. The foreskin on an infant protects the child from infection. It keeps feces out of the penis.
The foreskin also protects the sensitivity of the penis for sexual reasons when he grows up. The glans, or head, is meant to be an internal organ much like the inside of your labia.

Quote:

She then tells me how unhealthy it is to not circumcise
Its very healthy to have a foreskin, as pointed out before it protects and keeps the penis clean.
When he grows older he will make smegma which is like the vaginal fluids a woman has. It serves to clean out the penis. Like your vulva washing with water is all that is needed. As an infant the skin does not move back so you wash it off like a finger.

Quote:

and how when he gets married, an uncircumcised penis will hurt the woman during sex?!?!?
that is not true at all! The foreskin makes sex more pleasureable for both partners. It keeps the fluids inside so that dryness is not as common. When a penis is erect the foreskin is not noticeable anyway.

Quote:

Also , most of my friends (Christians) mention, "Well, it's in the Bible"
True it is in the Bible, the Old Testament. But there are several verses in the New Testament which explain it is not necessary for Christians.


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## feebeeglee (Nov 30, 2002)

Everyone here has given you lots of information and things to think about. I'd like to point out that America is the only country in the world where boys are routinely circumcised at birth for non-religious reasons, and that over 80% of the men on the planet are intact, uncircumcised, and very happy with it, thank you very much!

I have to run, but I will private message you later on the Christianity/circumcision aspect. My husband initially wanted to circ and I looked into the Biblical aspects of it.

Good luck! You've got lots 2 learn







My favorite links are:
It's A Boy!
and
Information for Parents


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

I just wanted to say that I have 2 sons, both intact. Daddy is circumcised.

As Frank stated, dh and I have had problems with sex causing my to be sore. There is alot of pulling. I do believe if he was intact, it wouldn't be an issue.

As to my boys, I could not bare chopping a part of their flesh off. It makes me ill.

On Oprah they had a show about female circumcision.....they audience was crying and so upset. Who is crying for our boys???

I don't feel I can make a decision like that for mt sons. It is there body. I chose to leave them as God gave them to me.


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## calngavinsmom (Feb 19, 2003)

Hi again. I just wanted to add this link to about circumcision and Christianity.
http://www.stopcirc.com/christian.html

Take care,
Tara


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## feebeeglee (Nov 30, 2002)

That last link for the Christian perspective seems to be down. Here's another, tho:
http://www.cirp.org/pages/cultural/peron1/


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## Nemmer (Sep 30, 2002)

This thread has links to articles published by Mothering Magazine. They are the articles that first helped me to understand how damaging and unnecessary circumcision is:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ad.php?t=76367

Also, this thread has enough info to keep you busy.








http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=207626


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Everyone else has said a lot of good things.

May I just add:

What OTHER parts will you be "discussing" cutting off? Tips of fingers? Parts of ears? A little eyelid?

If you've decided to not cut off these parts, why?

What parts of a girl would you cut off? Why or why not?

Seems like a silly question, doesn't it? Now put that into the context of circ.

I left my son with his genital integrity. It wasn't mine to take in the first place.


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## Meli65 (Apr 29, 2002)

I never thought about it until I read Dr. Sears' description of a circumcision in The Pregnacy Book (or The Baby Book, I forget which). Now, he was just being informational but it sounded so horrific (strapping the baby to a board!) that I could not imagine putting my precious boy through that kind of pain and fear, especially when he was just a few days old. We were the first people who I knew for a fact didn't circumcise, but now I know a lot and frankly feel sorry for circumcised little boys -- their penises look raw and vulnerable to me.

Good luck! Boys are wonderful


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

Hi - I can't really add a lot to all of the good information you have already been given, but I did want to give you the link to this study:

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/11/prweb180294.htm

This study showed that circumcision is NOT cost effective, medically speaking.

From the study:

Quote:

The analysis is based on published data from multiple observational studies, comparing boys circumcised at birth and those not circumcised, using the Quality of Well-being Scale, a Markov analysis, the standard reference case, and a societal perspective. Neonatal circumcision increased incremental costs by $828.42 per patient and resulted in an incremental 15.30 well-years lost per 1000 males. The only ones to gain from this unnecessary and harmful surgery are the attending physicians and hospitals.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Frankly Speaking*
To the contrary, it is thought that man is the only specie on earth that has sex for the pure enjoyment of it.
Frank









don't forget the bonobo chimps. ALSO intact. (should the vivisectionists get the idea to test hypotheses regarding foreskin & sexual arousal, & decide to circ a bunch of them, no doubt many animal rights activists would crusade to have such cruelty stopped- that have circ'd their own sons as a matter of course. no diss to the intactivist peta members here intended, i'm just making a point. what would be considered torture to an animal is routinely done to human babies.)

ps we're christian & jewish & don't circ. read paul, for a start. he says don't bother.

suse


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Quote:

Why do you chose not to?
Frank will probably know the exact numbers, but there are far more complications that are caused by circumcision than by keeping the penis intact. Many men have minor and major sexual dysfunction as adults and do not realize it is because they are circumcised.

I chose not to for the same reason I chose not to circumcise my girl. Circumcision is purely a cultural phenomenon. NonJewish male circ. was originally promoted as a way to curb masturbation, as masturbation was thought of as sinful and a cause for all sorts of health problems, from hysteria to blindness to epilepsy.

The original thought was that if a male had an extremely painful and traumatic experience with his genitals, he would be less apt to fool around with them. The "experts" also concluded that if there was no foreskin to tug at and no head to "discover" beneath it, boys would be less prone to masturbate.

So it became the norm to circumcise all boys at birth. As time went on doctors kept trying to come up with reasons why circ. is beneficial. Over time, every single reason they came up with has been disproven. They continue to circ. because it is extremely difficult to admit that your profession has done something so cruel and harmful for so many years for absolutely no justifiable reason at all!

The pain is certainly a factor, as well. 99% of boys receive little or no pain relief for this surgery. It is ten minutes of ripping, cutting, and clamping at the most sensitive part of the infant's body. Babies often fall into a state of shock because the pain is so severe. Usually, when a mom or nurse or doc says "Oh, he barely made a peep!" or "Oh, he slept right through it!", it's because they were in shock.

As far as it being cleaner and healthier... not true at all. As Frank pointed out, we have managed to populate the earth quite nicely.







All mammals have foreskins. If a man didn't need a foreskin, evolution would've phased them out a looooooong time ago! Combining form and function, cutting off the foreskin is the equivalent of removing the clitoris, vaginal sphincter and outer labia. Yes, women could still procreate, she might have less infections, and she could still orgasm and give birth. HOWEVER, does this give us reason to genitally modify women, as well?

It's interesting, because every single reason we give for justifying male circ. are the same exact reasons other cultures use to justify female circ. As I said before, it is a cultural phenomenon used to control sexuality. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Often when the discussion of circumcision gets down to a debate, those trying to justify circumcision resort to linking to news articles, op-ed pieces, a press release or something they saw on The Oprah Show. Those are pretty much worthless and I demand to see the actual study. If I can't see the actual study, it ain't worth doodle.

The link above is a news article taken from a press release and really tells you little and it is difficult to really debate with this tid-bit of information. I'm into minutiae and really like to see these studies so that I can see what the limits are and what the confounders are. I happened to find the actual study. for those like me that like to spend an hour or so of plowing through statistics and deciphering medical jargon and scientific terms, here is the actual study:

http://www.prweb.com/prfiles/2004/11...-_Van_Howe.pdf

Enjoy!

Frank


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## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

Hi from Scandinavia!

As others have stated, USA is the only country practising routine infant circumcision for 'medical' reasons. Even suggesting something like that here would get people furious. Besides, doctors refuse to do it. Male circumcision is viewed as horrible and violating than female circumcision.
Here, boys/men actually needing circumcision for medical reason is extremely rare - less than 0.006%. That pretty much makes foreskin one of the healthiest bodypart! As long as you take care of intact penis correctly = leave it alone!!!! Unfortenately American medical community is very poorly educated when it comes to correct care of intact penis - you can check the sticky's on the top of this page(warning for parents of intact son).

This is how circumcision is done in USA;

http://www.cirp.org/library/procedure/plastibell/

http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/circvid9.rm

http://www.intact.ca/vidintro.htm

AUDIO only: http://www.cirp.org/library/procedur...ibell/circ.wav


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:

when he gets married, an uncircumcised penis will hurt the woman during sex?!?!?
I can tell you from first hand experience that sex with a circumcised man is MUCH more painful- like a previous poster said- it causes much more soreness than sex with a an intact man. I guess this may be TMI for some but it is my experience- I have had both here is my experience: My fiance is circed and we have to use lube every time we have sex to avoid the soreness that occurs otherwise- it also takes circed men longer to orgasm (and not in a good way) because they have reduced sensation. They also tend to go soft more often than intact men. I find myself wishing that my man wasn't circed because I know it feels better with an intact man- not worrying over lube, not thinking "god I got off 15 minutes ago and he's still trying to get off- how long is this going to last- god he just went soft"

I am pregnant with a boy too and I can't wait to tell him "I respected you and protected you" and know that he will have much better sexual function than some of his peers. Who would want to deprive their son and his future mate of the best sexual experience possible?

So many people don't even think about the foreskin as a sexual organ- my mom even said "why would you want to keep all that ugly extra skin?" well mom, because it isn't "extra" and it isn't "ugly"


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

I've posted this elsewhere, but thought it might be worth re-posting on this thread, to give a different perspective.

My dh is intact (he's British, and they don't circ over here, although they used to about 50 years ago).

Let me tell you - it definitely doesn't hurt to have sex! It's quite nice, funnily enough. :LOL









Now, I'm a bit old-fashioned, and dh is my 'one and only', so I can't give you comparisons. But since DH is intact, I know what a normal unaroused penis looks like - and the glans is covered.

In a normal, intact penis, the foreskin comes back when the man is aroused, uncovering the glans.

So you only see the uncovered glans when the man is aroused.

Except, of course, if the man is circumcised - in which case, the penis has been cut so that it will look permanently aroused.

Quite honestly, I would be embarrassed to see my ds's uncovered glans. That is a private part of his body, and again - having it uncovered denotes arousal (not something a mom wants to see in her son, right?! :LOL ).

But a circumcised baby has been cut so that he will look permanently aroused. When you think about it, that is a very warped thing to do.









It's been pointed out here that the current 'fashion' for circumcision is to leave quite a lot of foreskin, so some circumcised babies still look 'intact' (and so not aroused) - but that doesn't negate the point that the parents are then told that he'll 'grow into it' - meaning that at some point in the future, the glans will be permanently exposed.


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## woobysma (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Love2learn*
Why do you chose not to?
I don't know anyone who has chosen not to. Is it because of the pain??

Not entirely, it was a factor (like delaying shots, I didn't want his first few days to be tramatic), but mostly I don't feel right about parents imposing their ideas of sexuality on their babies. I find tatoos extremely sexy on a man, but I would never think of tatooing my infant son. Parents who think circ'd penises "look better" are taking what they find sexualy attractive and putting that on their children. I frankly think that's rather sick. As for the "health reasons" - even a quick read through any reputable source will show you there are no clear health benefits to circ'ing. If you've ever had a UTI, you know they're uncomfortable but easily treated with antibiotics. I wouldn't think of having my genitals sliced off just to prevent that.

Quote:

My SIL asked if we were going to circumcise and I told her I don't know yet. (I need to learn about it, I have no clue about either side)
She then tells me how unhealthy it is to not circumcise and how when he gets married, an uncircumcised penis will hurt the woman during sex?!?!?
You're going to run across a lot of opinions in this discussion. It tends to bring up a lot of emotion from people, both for and against. Just remember, it's not your SILs penis and she'll never be affected by your decision. Your son will live the repercussions of your choice for the rest of his life. He's the only one you'll have to answer to, and you may have to do that some day. What would you tell him if he asked why you did it? As a mother, I never wanted to utter the words "because everyone else was doing it" - kind of blows away a lot of what you try to teach you kids.

Quote:

Also , most of my friends (Christians) mention, "Well, it's in the Bible"
Anyway, I want to be well informed so where do I start reading about all of this?
I'm not an active Christian, but even I know that's an ignorant statement. Yes, Jesus was circumcised (he was Jewish) - he was also crucified, but I don't see parents rushing out to do that to their sons. If you're focusing on what he looked like naked, then you're missing his point entirely


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## intentfulady (Dec 31, 2003)

Just say NO.


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Love2learn*
Why do you chose not to?
I don't know anyone who has chosen not to. Is it because of the pain?
My SIL asked if we were going to circumcise and I told her I don't know yet. (I need to learn about it, I have no clue about either side)
She then tells me how unhealthy it is to not circumcise and how when he gets married, an uncircumcised penis will hurt the woman during sex?!?!?
Also , most of my friends (Christians) mention, "Well, it's in the Bible"
Anyway, I want to be well informed so where do I start reading about all of this?

Next time you talk to your SIL about circumcision maybe you should ask her some of these questions:

How can it be unhealthy if every boy (Every mammal as well.) is born with a foreskin?

How can something that's supposed to be there hurt a woman during sex? Did you know that there was a survey done and it showed that most women prefer having sex with an intact man?

Did you know that in the NT of the Bible it says that circumcision is unnecessary and there actually appears to be a warning for those that do it?

Did you know that most boys don't get pain relief, and that in the beginning the reason they did it without pain relief was in hopes that the boy would associate the pain with masturbation so he wouldn't do it (Non-religious circumcision in the US was started to stop boys from masturbating. They knew that it would remove sensitive nerve endings with the tissue thus making it not feel as good. The same goes for sex for circumcised men.)

Did you know that the rate of circed vs. intact is getting close to 50/50 now?

Did you know that the US is the ONLY country that circs the majority of it's boys for non-religious reasons?

Did you know that they circumcise girls in other countries and use some of the same excuses you gave me to circumcise my son?

And then use these links to educate her (Think of this as an opportunity to possibly save another child from this atrocity.)

Similarities in Attitudes and Misconceptions toward Infant Male Circumcision in North America and Ritual Female Genital Mutilation in Africa.

Separated at Birth: Did circumcision ruin your sex life?

Mothers Against Circumcison

DOCTORS OPPOSING CIRCUMCISION (D.O.C.)

Mothering: The Case Against Circumcision

If you read nothing else, please check out this site, it's very important. Historical Medical Quotes on Circumcision

The Circumcision Information and Resource Pages

Answers from the Bible to Questions about Circumcision

And if you decide to do it you really should see it done first: Understanding the intact video
Circumcision methods

Ask yourself this....What other body part would you cut off of your child at birth because others do it? Is it really your right to cut any healthy part off of your child? If you had a girl and lived in a country where they circ girls would you circumcise your girls? It's a good sign that you are here. It shows you want to learn instead of being a sheep.







Good for you!














Now go educate your SIL. :LOL


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## jessjgh1 (Nov 4, 2004)

You've gotten a lot of good responses...

I was in the same place last year and the pain issue caused me to look into circumcision. As a previous poster mentioned, just reading the descriptions in The Baby Book (Dr. Sears) and even What to Expect When You Are Expecting (mainstream) made me pause. At first I thought it was somethign that was done out of necessity and was just concerned about how much pain it caused, and how you cared for it after it was done. What I found changed my mind. I ended up not circumcising my son.

The main reason was because I did not want to cause my son pain for something that was not medically necessary. After making my decision and learning more about it I think it is crazy that I had to justify NOT removing a part of my sons body to myself, my husband, and some of my family (both side, although dh's side is Jewish).

Then almost everyone thougth it would be hard to care for. Everyone from my mom to my best friend thought I had to 'do' somethign (no one knew 'what') at every diaper change. NONONONONO It is sad to note is that MANY of the 'problems' in intact children/adults are due to parents or doctors forcibly retracting a child's foreskin-- this should never happen. Many US doctors still don't know the correct way to care for a natural intact penis and may try to do this- or may tell a parent to do this at each diaper change- this is wrong, painful, and causes infections and other problems. Almost ALL figures of 'problems' with intactness are elevated by this improper practice or doctors not familiar with intactness who choose to circ when not necessary

So think of it from another perspective.... why would anyone cut off a totally healthy and naturaly part of another person's body? There must be a pretty good reason, right? It must be essential to a child's health- the AAP even states "Since circumcision is not essential to a child's health, parents should choose what is best for their child by looking at the benefits and risks. "

If you are interested in a site that compares risks of circing and intactness, here's a good one: http://www.caringforkids.cps.ca/babies/Circumcision.htm
I was surprised to see that many children who are circumcised require re-circumcising, for example.

Jessica


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## mom2tig99Nroo03 (Apr 24, 2003)

you have gotten tons of info.

kudos to you for taking the time to get the information beforehand.


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## Venice Mamacita (Dec 24, 2003)

First, congratulations on expecting your son!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Love2learn*
Why do you chose not to?
I don't know anyone who has chosen not to. Is it because of the pain?

Well, we chose not to for many reasons, most of which have already been mentioned, but just in case:

1. Our son's body is his own -- we wouldn't pierce his ears or have him tattooed without his permission, so why on Earth would we remove a part of his body (especially his penis!) without it? We agreed that if he grows up and decides he'd like to be circumcized after all, we'll pay for the surgery.

2. It's incredibly painful while healing. I have two younger brothers, both of whom are circumcized, and I remember very vividly their screams of pain during urination for several days after the procedure. I also remember how red and raw their poor penises looked. I could never do that to my child.

3. My husband is a physician, and he was adamant that our son stay intact. There is no medical reason to circumcize. Chronic infections are almost always due to bad hygiene, so if you change and bathe your son regularly there's no reason to fear problems fo this sort.

Quote:

My SIL asked if we were going to circumcise and I told her I don't know yet. (I need to learn about it, I have no clue about either side)
She then tells me how unhealthy it is to not circumcise and how when he gets married, an uncircumcised penis will hurt the woman during sex?!?!?
Your SIL is terribly misinformed. Foreskin is exactly that -- skin -- and can in no way hurt anyone during intercourse. In addition, being intact can actually enhance a man's pleasure.

Quote:

Also , most of my friends (Christians) mention, "Well, it's in the Bible"
Circumcision is a Hebrew rite of passage, not a Christian one. Jesus was circumcized because he was Jewish.

I hope this helps. There are many folks here who have a lot more information on the subject, so you're in the right place. Good luck to you, you're in for a great adventure!


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Venice Mamacita*
1. Our son's body is his own -- we wouldn't pierce his ears or have him tattooed without his permission, so why on Earth would we remove a part of his body (especially his penis!) without it? We agreed that if he grows up and decides he'd like to be circumcized after all, we'll pay for the surgery.

Let me preface this by saying that I am not being critical at all, just wondering about the thinking here and asking for comment from all.

I've often heard parents say that if their son wanted a circumcision later, they would pay for it and I wonder why.

This seems to me to be a mindset of _"This is something I was obligated to do but didn't do and if he wants it later on, I am still obligated to pay for it."_ Now, my personal opinion is that this should not be done for a teenager because they are subject to too much peer pressure and are not equiped with enough life experience to make such a needless and life long decision and a prudent parent will refuse this until the child becomes an adult and can presumably make the decision from a more rational and informed perspective.

That being the case, would you pay for an adult child to get a tattoo or an ear piercing or breast implants or a circumcision for a daughter? None of these or a circumcision for a son is something that is necessary for the health or well being of the child and a parent has no obligation to do these to a child. I think few parents would agree to any of the procedures except a circumcision for a son. Why is that an exception?

Quote:

Chronic infections are almost always due to bad hygiene, so if you change and bathe your son regularly there's no reason to fear problems fo this sort.
Again, not to dispute you but my experience is that infection has little or nothing to do with hygiene but more often, improper care of an intact child such as forcibly retracting to clean inside the foreskin or an infection of spontaneous generation. I also believe from experience that there are few if any chronic infections that can not be permanently cleared up unless there are underlying factors such as diabetes.

Quote:

Your SIL is terribly misinformed. Foreskin is exactly that -- skin -- and can in no way hurt anyone during intercourse. In addition, being intact can actually enhance a man's pleasure.
And from personal experience and testimony of many women here and at other sites, can also enhance the pleasure of the woman partner.

Frank


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## nhklh (Oct 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Love2learn*
Why do you chose not to?

We had absolutely no reason *to* have it done to our son! It isn't commonly done in this country (Australia) nowdays either. Great that you are researching!


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## Mary Beth (Aug 23, 2004)

Just a note on infection from our experiences--three sons, ages 15, 13, and 11--all intact--never a single infection--and believe me I did nothing special other than not allowing forceful retraction by doctors--one lady doctor did it to my first son--I was extremely angry--but it ended up not affecting him.

The only real discussion I have had with my sons about it was them thanking me for not cutting them--they thought the whole idea of it was weird.









I did a lot of research years ago--just like you are doing. Not cutting seemed the only answer to me. Search your mommy heart and go with the answer you know is right. The best advice I can give to any mommy on any issue is--trust yourself.

And congrats on the son--I loved having boys--until the teen years that is--but that is a whole other issue.









marybeth


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## hvahila (Feb 8, 2005)

I was in the same boat about 5 months ago when I found out I was having a boy, I did research on the internet and chose NOT too! American Academy of Pediatrics doesn't endorse circumsicion anymore, there is absolutely no medical reason to do so, this was a completely religious practice for Jewish people. I think it goes back to masturbation, losing the sensitive foreskin supposibly would make it less pleasurable to masturbate. Circumsicion is on the decline thankfully. I do not regret my decision one bit. Good luck in your quest for knowledge! ...heather


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## shishkeberry (Sep 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Frankly Speaking*
To the contrary, it is thought that man is the only specie on earth that has sex for the pure enjoyment of it.

Don't forget about dolphins!! :LOL
http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/pleasure.htm


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Sonofagun! I'm going to have to call The Discovery Channel and correct them!

Frank


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## Venice Mamacita (Dec 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Frankly Speaking*
I've often heard parents say that if their son wanted a circumcision later, they would pay for it and I wonder why.

This seems to me to be a mindset of _"This is something I was obligated to do but didn't do and if he wants it later on, I am still obligated to pay for it."_ Now, my personal opinion is that this should not be done for a teenager because they are subject to too much peer pressure and are not equiped with enough life experience to make such a needless and life long decision and a prudent parent will refuse this until the child becomes an adult and can presumably make the decision from a more rational and informed perspective.

That being the case, would you pay for an adult child to get a tattoo or an ear piercing or breast implants or a circumcision for a daughter? None of these or a circumcision for a son is something that is necessary for the health or well being of the child and a parent has no obligation to do these to a child. I think few parents would agree to any of the procedures except a circumcision for a son. Why is that an exception?

Hi Frank ~ Really good points, thank you. Initially, we took this stance because we have friends in the Mid-West whose 17-year-old son was struggling with this very issue. Everyone he knew (including his father) was circumcized, and he didn't like being "different," was taunted for it, even. It was a very painful time for him. He's now almost 20 and chose not to have the surgery, but hasn't entirely ruled out the possibility, either.

Unfortunately, where we live it's not unheard of for parents to give plastic surgery (nose jobs, breast implants, etc.) as gifts for bar/bat mitvah or sweet 16 . . . but we certainly wouldn't, so your point re: circ is very well taken.

Quote:

Again, not to dispute you but my experience is that infection has little or nothing to do with hygiene but more often, improper care of an intact child such as forcibly retracting to clean inside the foreskin or an infection of spontaneous generation. I also believe from experience that there are few if any chronic infections that can not be permanently cleared up unless there are underlying factors such as diabetes.
You're absolutely right, and for the sake of brevity I didn't cover many of the other causes of chronic infection already mentioned in other posts. However, in many cases I'm personally aware of, poor hygiene is definitely an issue, and it's common in Western medicine to recommend circumcision when this is the case.

Quote:

And from personal experience and testimony of many women here and at other sites, can also enhance the pleasure of the woman partner.
Another good point, I've heard this as well. Although in my own personal experience I honestly found no difference -- positive or negative -- between an intact and circumcized penis.

Again, thank you -- great food for thought!


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## Mark1965 (Dec 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Love2learn*
Why do you chose not to?
I don't know anyone who has chosen not to. Is it because of the pain?
My SIL asked if we were going to circumcise and I told her I don't know yet. (I need to learn about it, I have no clue about either side)
She then tells me how unhealthy it is to not circumcise and how when he gets married, an uncircumcised penis will hurt the woman during sex?!?!?
Also , most of my friends (Christians) mention, "Well, it's in the Bible"
Anyway, I want to be well informed so where do I start reading about all of this?

I just want to reply to your question. Doctors screwed me up. I had it done when I was 8 or so. Now here I am, 39 and my penis is crooked it's been that way since I was 10. Plus when I urinate it spit's in different directions and drips for a few minutes. I also have a lot of scarring. So if I had children or my partner and I were expecting I would tell her the same thing and hope she would consider it not to be done. I couldn't put my son through what I went through. Have you ever seen a video on how they do it? My girlfriend (She posts as "AnnMarie" on here.) showed me one and it brought tears to my eyes.


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## hummingbear (Apr 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jessjgh1*
If you are interested in a site that compares risks of circing and intactness, here's a good one: http://www.caringforkids.cps.ca/babies/Circumcision.htm

Hey Frank!
Would you look at this for UTI and penile caner statistics?
I know you have looked into these extensively and would like to bounce this one off of you.


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## hummingbear (Apr 17, 2003)

Oh I wanted to add that I am glad that we left our son intact. Probably most significant to me is the belief that nature knows best. But then there is always "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

I hope everyone's response to your question has filled you up with useful information. If there are any other questions, ask away.


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## galadrielm (Nov 30, 2001)

We UP'd, so we didn't know the sex of our baby until he arrived. In the interest of being prepared for anything, I studied up on circumcision. I had been opposed to it anyway--to me, having a science background and a good grasp on evolution, if something is useless it will go away eventually. And over the course of millions of years, all the mammals still have foreskins. Only humans think they should cut it off. As to what purpose the foreskin serves--I learned a lot at www.nocirc.org. I won't attempt to digest it here. You'll just have to read it yourself.

When we were pregnant with our daughter, I asked dh what he thought of circ, his response then was, Why not, so he'll look like me and everyone else. Three years later, I asked him again, and he responded as if I had just suggested we sell our home and move into a cardboard box--No way! Why should we? That's what I wanted to hear.

The fact is, most of the world doesn't circ. And more and more American parents are realizing that circ is not necessary. It offers no health benefits and carries risks that would not exist otherwise. With ordinary care and cleanliness, the uncirc'd penis is no more problematic than your fingernails, plus that foreskin will bring my son a lot of pleasure he wouldn't have without it--both while he's young and just playing with himself and later when he matures sexually.

So, it's a win-win situation for everyone, both now and later!

Gala


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## maguire708 (Feb 21, 2003)

IF you decide to do it you might not want the hospital nursery to do
it... Explore your options by talking to a Mohel (special Rabbi) or
pediatric urologist before you decide who you want to perform the
surgery (that's what I learned from meeting with a pediatric urologist.)
Nothing gross, graphic, or otherwise inflammatory follows, just our
learning process and experience!

I didn't want to do it but didn't feel very strongly about it either
way so I left the decision totally up to DH since quite honestly I
wanted out of the decision making at that point and "I don't have a
penis and so am not qualified" SOOO he decided to circumcise DS
since that's what he's familiar with... DS is not circumcised
though and here's how/why that happened:

We had DS in a birth center (which doesn't do circumcisions) and
went home when he was a few hours old. We had talked to a Mohel who
would happily do it even though we aren't Jewish but we'd have to pay
up front and then be reimbursed by our insurance company and we were
broke so we also called a pediatric urologist at Johns Hopkins (who was
covered by insurance.)

When we saw the urologist he said that yes, he'd do it, but since DS
was (by then) more than a week old it would have to be postponed until
he was 6 months and at that time it would be outpatient surgery under
full anesthesia (which we eventually opted not to do). While we were
meeting with him we asked him about circumcision in general (things
like my great grandfather ended up needing surgery in his 90's because
his foreskin tightened up and the doctors had to catheterize him),
hospital circumcision, and Mohels, and caring for the uncircumcised
penis... and we got the "professional opinions" of the urologist:

As far as complications from foreskin... they are rare and usually only
occur in very elderly patients.
The urologist said about 90% of his circumcision-related practice is
correcting botched circumcisions but he'd never actually needed to
correct a circumcision done by a Mohel. He felt the reason for this is
that in a hospital nursery pretty much anyone can circumcise a baby (a
friend's son was circumcised by the lactation consultant!) regardless of experience! Also apparently circumcision is covered in just one short lesson in medical and nursing schools. Mohels, on the other hand, are well trained and often do hundreds of circumcisions every year.
He felt that the "ring" and "cap" types of passive circumcision which
are available now (DH's nephew was circumcised without a cut using one
of these) were unreliable and seemed to prolong the process rather than
easing it.
We discussed the medical community's stance, STD and cancer studies,
etc. and the urologist still saw no reason for a child to be
circumcised unless it was done as a cultural or religious choice.
He explained that the uncircumcised penis required no extra care and
that an infant's foreskin should never be forcibly retracted (it
detaches and can slip back and forth later in childhood).

Now I am really glad we didn't follow through with the surgery at a
later date. I babysat a neighbor's son who was circumcised at 12
months (at the time of his adoption) and I was even more relieved that
we didn't do it after spending the week of his surgery changing his
diapers... he just looked so raw and uncomfortable for those few days!
After spending time with several newborns who'd been circumcised I can
tell you that they cope much better than older babies do so I urge
expectant couples to do their research and line up their resources well
in advance.


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:

Hey Frank!
Would you look at this for UTI and penile caner statistics?
I know you have looked into these extensively and would like to bounce this one off of you.

They said about UTIs:
_Of every 1,000 boys who are circumcised: 2 will be admitted to hospital for a urinary tract infection (UTI) before they are one year old._

And
_Of every 1,000 boys who are not circumcised: 7 will be admitted to hospital for a UTI before they are one year old._

They didn't give the study so it is hard to see how they arrived at those numbers but the numbers are so incredibly low that it is clear that circumcision is not an effective preventative prophylactic for urinary tract infections. The other complications clearly outnumber the UTIs that required hospitalization and some of those were far more dangerous. With the numbers this low, you have to seriously consider all confounding factors and that is difficult at best.

In the full report I linked to, they did mention Wiswell and cast some aspersions on his research but it did appear that they included his results in with the other studies. I suspect they somehow averaged all of the studies to come up with these numbers.

About penile cancer, they said:

_"Circumcision slightly lowers the risk of developing cancer of the penis in later life. However, this form of cancer is very rare. One of every one million men who are circumcised will develop cancer of the penis each year. By comparison, 3 of every one million men who are not circumcised will develop penile cancer each year."_

This is a lower rate for both circumcised and intact than any research I have seen before but the ratio is about the same as that used by most American medical professionals. That is, about 3 to 1. Maybe Canada has a much lower penile cancer rate than America but I doubt it. Of all of the nations of the world, I can't imagine two that are more alike and with that similarity, it could be expected that the penile cancer rate would be the same. Even at the higher rate, few hospitals and even fewer doctors will ever see a case of penile cancer. I ran some calculations once and figured that in a city of 50,000 and all of the men intact, statistically, they could expect to see a case of penile cancer once every 156 years. Using the CPS statistics, it would be one case every 468 years. Either way, generations of doctors would pass before a case would statistically be seen.

Frank


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maguire708*
He felt that the "ring" and "cap" types of passive circumcision which are available now (DH's nephew was circumcised without a cut using one of these) were unreliable and seemed to prolong the process rather than easing it.


There seems to be a misconception going around that there are certain types of the procedure that does not require cutting of the penis. With the exception of the TaraClamp that is not available in the US, there is no procedure that does not require cutting the penis. I assume when you say the "ring" and "cap," you are talking about the Gomco and Plasitbel methods and both of those require just as much cutting as any other type. As a matter of fact, I have never heard of a "passive" circumcision procedure with the possible exception of the TaraClamp which is only used in third world countries and is intended to be used in areas where there are no medical facilities. The TaraClamp is also for use on boys who are retractile which means much older than infants. If the TaraClamp is used on infants, cutting is required.

Regardless of what someone has told you, there is no passive circumcision and there is no circumcision procedure in the US that does not require cutting.

Quote:

The urologist said about 90% of his circumcision-related practice is
correcting botched circumcisions but he'd never actually needed to
correct a circumcision done by a Mohel.
Actually, most circumcisions are done by the doctor that is in charge of the mother and in the vast majority of cases, he/she has extensive experience. Using a mohel is no guarantee of a successful procedure and most mohels will not perform a non-ritual procedure. Recently, we had a thread where 10 boys were infected with the herpes simplex virus by the mohel that circumcised them and then about 3 months later, there were three more and one of those boys died from the infection. Also, remember that mohels are not medical professionals and if there is an unexpected outcome such as hemorraghing, heart stoppage or respiration difficulties, there may be no help close by and he could die before he could be taken to an emergency room. Also, please understand that if there are problems, since mohels are not medical professionals, they can not obtain malpractice insurance and you are on your own if there are problems. You may not be able to collect one red cent for hospitalization or burial arraingements.

Frank


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## maguire708 (Feb 21, 2003)

I just shared what we learned from our conversation with a pediatric urologist at one of the country's leading hospitals, I never meant to imply that there were any guaranties about *anything* in life, or to suggest that there was a "better" way to go, I just want the OP to research this thoroughly and consider all of the options available if she thinks that she might want to circ.


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## jessjgh1 (Nov 4, 2004)

On my expecting club I tried to include a bit of information in case people decided to circ- and many of them did. I would just encourage a parent considering circing to research the pain relief methods. I would use the AAP's recommendations and demand pain prevention and relief for my child.

From what I understand Mohels usually don't use any. I never made it to that stage, so I never ended up finding out, since we decided not to circ.

Then there are hospitals that use one consent form for all their doctors- the form implies that there is use of pain relief but each doctor is different- so parents need to make sure that thier doctor does, in fact, use pain relief.

After having my son I foudn a good deal of other things I wish I had known about. Most of this was from parents on my expecting club who foudn out the hard way- they had their son circed and didn't like the results.

For example, different doctors perform differnt variations of a 'circ'. From removing a lot of skin, to being a little more conservative and leaving skin for the boy to 'grow into' to try to avoid the circ being to tight, to a 'loose' circ, leaving even more skin. Sometimes parents are surprised by this, because the results may look more like and 'intact' penis than one that is cut. Sometimes parents are surprised that there is loose skin. Some parents so much so that they consider a second circ.

Currently there is a debate whether the best thing to do with the loose skin and the problem of adhesions (this seems to be quite common). One thought is to leave it alone and it will be fine and seperate just as the foreskin does on an intact boy. One thought is that the parent needs to keep the skin from trying to heal (lift/rip the skin up at every diaper change and apply vaseline to keep it from sticking). Unfortunatly this is very uncomfortable for ds and may need to be done for weeks. Especially since it may adhear overnight )-:

Sorry to be so graphic, but if the medical community actually TOLD parents about these common things, parents would be able to make better decisions. It is sad to read about parents who choose to have their son circed and then regret it and wish they had known more. Many get very upset because they are not given good information about care when they leave the hospital.

Hope this helps- it is much easier to care for the intact penis- no worries, no adhesions, no retracting, no wound, no pain relief worries, and you don't have to decide how your son is going to 'look', something I feel pretty uncomfortable about.

Jessica


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jessjgh1*
I would use the AAP's recommendations and demand pain prevention and relief for my child.

From what I understand Mohels usually don't use any.

Only if the mohel is also an M.D., otherwise, lidocaine and other pain relief methods are controlled substances and can only be prescribed by a medical professional. Few OB/GYNs and pediatricians are also mohels so the vast majority of ritual circumcisions are performed with no pain relief at all.

Quote:

Currently there is a debate whether the best thing to do with the loose skin and the problem of adhesions (this seems to be quite common). One thought is to leave it alone and it will be fine and seperate just as the foreskin does on an intact boy. One thought is that the parent needs to keep the skin from trying to heal (lift/rip the skin up at every diaper change and apply vaseline to keep it from sticking). Unfortunatly this is very uncomfortable for ds and may need to be done for weeks. Especially since it may adhear overnight )-:
Yes, adhesions have become quite common. However, the debate is over. The guidelines published by the AAP clearly state that no attempts should be made to resolve these adhesions unless the circumcision scar line is involved. I have known of mothers who have battled these adhesions for years, not just weeks or months. The foreskin can readhere in a matter of hours and each time the foreskin is pulled back, it is like re-opening a wound. No doubt it is painful to the child. I often wonder what psychological effect this can have on the child. Most people would clearly understand why painful manipulations of a girl's genitals could have a psychological effect on her that could last well into adulthood or even for a full lifetime but for boys, they certainly don't have this same concern. Males are expected to "Just get over it!"

Frank


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## jessjgh1 (Nov 4, 2004)

BTW, to original poster, sorry this is a little off your topic, but I keep getting interested by the responses. As your username implies, I'm eager to learn more, too. I hope you come back and post, and let us know what questions you have, or what you are finding helpful (or not helpful). - Jessica

Frank,
There are many doctors and vocal circ supporters who do not inform parents of the AAP's recommendation- and advise parents to 'be vigilant' at every diaper change. I wasn't really aware the AAP had a statement. I can think of a board off site where a person (not a doctor) continually recommends for parents to retract any adhesions. I will look for the specific AAP recommendatoins and post it on that board. I get frustrated that he 'acts' like a doctor in all his 'advice' and recommendations. I feel so bad for the boys and the parents who voice that they don't want to hurt their child. Some of them have been receptive to other arguments and have decided to leave their son be and even been angry at the LACK of information they were given when asked about circumcision. Others don't question this person and probably follow his advice.

I get so frustrated every time I search AAP, because to find info on intactness you have to search for circumcision. I noticed they changed some stuff around recently and wasn't able to find some of the information I had found in the past.

(I just tried to search again, some of the links to circ policy are broken, and I can't find the adhesion info-- could you point me in the right direction).

I've just been doing 'this' for about a year (about 3 months before my son was born till now), so it has been a mishmash of searching and learning. I just have been trying to find information as I've noticed the need, for example, learning about some of the problems circing parents have had on the expecting club I'm trying to wean myself from. I certainly appreciate the knowledge I've already gained since I've been reading the threads here the last week or so. Thanks for verifying some of the assumptions, hunches, or information I've been gathering.

BTW, my dh (Jewish) and I had still not come to a conclusion on what we were goign to do after his birth. It was left at one point that if dh insisted he would have to make all the arrangements and be darn sure that whoever did it followed the aap guidelines (he was in agreement about avoiding pain). I also mentioned that he would have to change a lot of diapers. I knew he'd probably not call- and if he did he would not find a mohel that used pain relief easily. Still I cried so hard after I said that and dh was out of sight. Then I held my son and cried and decided that even if he did do all that I would go back on my words and protect my son. I just knew if I 'gave in' I would be a mess every time I saw my son.

It is shameful that so many doctors and Mohels can ignore AAP guidelines, in my opinion. What, if any, are the repercussions (sp?) for US doctors ignoring AAP guidelines? Anyone know?

Sorry, this is so rambly.

Jessica


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jessjgh1*
Frank,
There are many doctors and vocal circ supporters who do not inform parents of the AAP's recommendation- and advise parents to 'be vigilant' at every diaper change. I wasn't really aware the AAP had a statement. I can think of a board off site where a person (not a doctor) continually recommends for parents to retract any adhesions.

I think I know the one you are talking about (his name starts with a "T"?) If it is, he very well knows the correct information but chooses not to present it. I suspect him of being a circumcision fetishist and think he gets some excitement from all of this manipulation. . . could be wrong.

Quote:

I will look for the specific AAP recommendatoins and post it on that board. I get frustrated that he 'acts' like a doctor in all his 'advice' and recommendations.
Think that's bad? There is one who has a screen name that indicates he is a retired pediatrician and passes out detailed medical advice. The problem is that he is neither retired nor a pediatrician. I called him on it one time and it got me banned but the good side of it is that he also disappeared for almost a year. At that same site there are a group of "nurses" none of which are really nurses and they also give out tons of pro-circumcision information and try to perpetuate all of the circumcision myths. I give out a lot of information that could sound like medical information but I am very aware of my limits and never represent myself as a medical professional. That would be both illegal and unethical.

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Others don't question this person and probably follow his advice.
This is an issue that people will select who to believe regardless of their qualifications. (I am a case in point :LOL) Those who want to believe they should circumcise their child will listen to anyone that espouses that view even when it is clear the person has no qualifications and when their information is clearly refuted by expert information. I know of very few other areas where this is true.

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I get so frustrated every time I search AAP, because to find info on intactness you have to search for circumcision. I noticed they changed some stuff around recently and wasn't able to find some of the information I had found in the past.

(I just tried to search again, some of the links to circ policy are broken, and I can't find the adhesion info-- could you point me in the right direction).
I had exactly the same problem. I'll find it and get it for you.

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I've just been doing 'this' for about a year (about 3 months before my son was born till now), so it has been a mishmash of searching and learning. I just have been trying to find information as I've noticed the need, for example, learning about some of the problems circing parents have had on the expecting club I'm trying to wean myself from. I certainly appreciate the knowledge I've already gained since I've been reading the threads here the last week or so. Thanks for verifying some of the assumptions, hunches, or information I've been gathering.
This is a difficult topic because there is so much conflicting information and because some deliberately deceive you by trying to present a "balanced" view and others deliberately try to deceive you for unethical reasons. It is difficult to sort through all of this and pick out what is true and what is not.

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It is shameful that so many doctors and Mohels can ignore AAP guidelines, in my opinion. What, if any, are the repercussions (sp?) for US doctors ignoring AAP guidelines? Anyone know?

Sorry, this is so rambly.

Jessica

There are absolutely no rammifications or repercussions. Medicine is an incredibly powerful industry and they have protection beyond what is ethical. They can get away with most anything as long as no one is crippled or dies.

Frank


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

I haven't found the AAP statement yet but here is one that says essentially the same thing. You should be able to use it:

http://www.medem.com/medlb/article_d...&sub_cat=474#1

_"*Q(uestion). My circumcised 2-year-old son has been having a problem with penile adhesion for over a year. Some doctors tell me to pull the excess skin back on a regular basis, and others tell me not to do it at all. Is this a common problem in little boys? Does he need another circumcision?*

A(nswer). Adhesions between the glans and foreskin are normal in infants and, by age 1, only half of the boys have retractable foreskin. Never try to forcibly strip the foreskin back because that's unnecessarily painful and may cause a raw surface and subsequent scarring. Any small, whitish lumps beneath the foreskin only represent normal skin shedding and need not be removed.

By the time he's 4 the adhesions should release on their own, and he can be taught to retract any remaining foreskin while bathing.

So, it's a common occurrence in little boys for adhesions to develop under any remaining foreskin, although it's rarely a problem and practically never requires a repeat circumcision."_

The thing that is left out is just to make sure the circumcision scar line isn't attached to the glans by an adhesion. This can cause a skin bridge which is unsightly and can be prone to infection and can cause pain to the adult man during or after intercourse. Otherwise, just leave it alone.

Frank


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## jessjgh1 (Nov 4, 2004)

Thanks for posting that, I'll try to find it on the site since the web address is truncated.

Also, you guessed correctly and the pro-circ sites make me very very sad, but I make myself go there from time to time. It helps to keep things partially honest.

Gotta go rescue the dog from my ds.....

Jessica


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

To the OP: Are you coming back? We are anxiously awaiting for your reply.


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## hummingbear (Apr 17, 2003)

Please let us know what your learning experiences have been: here and elsewhere. Feedback is helpful too!


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## Love2learn (Jun 3, 2004)

Thanks for all the info!! Very helpful!

DH and I have decided we are not going to circumcise. He didn't need alot of convincing. He said he didn't want the baby to have to go through all the unnecessary pain. I haven't read all the links posted but I plan to.
Thanks again!


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

That's great! Thanks for letting us know. What a lucky little boy!


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