# Modified time-out (I think) - is this GD or not?



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I posted a little while back about how my 2.5 year old is not listening to me, and is actively going out of her way to do things I tell her not to do. This has been very aggravating for me and has been causing a lot of stress.

I haven't really known what to do. I've childproofed to the extent I feel able, and I've decided to let the little things go (like the power struggle we were starting to have over her removing her sandals in the car).

And once that is done, the bottom line is there are some things that I cannot change, and that she simply cannot do. She can't push the button on the dryer over and over again - it will break. She can't be rough with her pet bunny - the bunny will be hurt. She can't chase the ten year old pit bull around - the dog is patient, but enough teasing will result in a bite.

So. What I've been doing is parent imposed consequences, often including a mini-time out. It tends to go like this:

Me: "Please stop pressing the dryer button. That can break the dryer."
Her: "I will press the dryer button."
Me: "You need to stop pressing the dryer button. If you press it again, I will put you on sofa."

Then if she presses it again, I put her on the sofa, and she is immediately allowed to get off, but just this action usually means she dissolves into hysterical tears. And I comfort her of course.

But then she doesn't press the dryer button again. And now often if I tell her I will put her on the sofa, she will stop doing whatever the thing is that I'm trying to stop.

I'm conflicted about this. I said I wouldn't do time out. But... it's working. And I am way calmer in my dealing with the not listening, because I know I have a tool that will work.

What do you all think?

If you're not cool with it, I really need practical solutions that will work. I would be open to doing something better for sure, I want to do the best I can here for my daughter. But I need something that works, yk?


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Well, its certainly more GD than hitting her hand! I think that removing a small child from a situation that is too tempting for them to resist but could be harmful to them or property is OK. But then, I'm not the most gentle around here... However, I would be uncomfortable with the "threat" of the time-out part of your scenario. After a button push, and a "please don't do that", another button push would result in child being removed to another room and distracted. Not to a certain place and no threat involved. I think its relative. There are few perfect answers, probably because there are few perfect kids and perfect parents.

For me, the dryer wouldn't be worth the struggle because I don't think it will break if pushed repeatedly. But if you have evidence to the contrary or a particularly "last legs dryer", it might be different. And I wonder if there is a better way to keep her away from the button, if you are really concerned about it? That seems like an environment change would solve it.

The pets are a different story. I think the only way to really work with this one is to be right there any time they interact and to physically guide her hands, especially with the bunny. With the dog, you probably have less control over the situation, but I might isolate the dog and child from each other rather than do "time out".

The problem with timeouts alone is that they don't teach what a child should do, only what they shouldn't do. And left to their own thoughts, they can probably come up with some less-than-ideal alternatives. "Can't push the dryer button, maybe I should kick it instead?" So if you are going to do a "remove from the situation", then you need to include the positive "this is what you should do" at some other time. So, maybe something like "DD, please push the dryer button one time for me" while you are starting the dryer, and then moving on to some other activity. "Pet the bunny gently", then putting bunny back in the cage when you can't supervise anymore.

Timeouts can stop the situation, but they don't solve the underlying issue. We used them with my son to get him to stop hitting, but not in isolation. They have to be combined with lessons in what should be done is whatever situation is a problem.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

What I would do it TOTALLY ignore her when she is doing that. Leave the room. When she sees you don't care I bet ya anything it's no longer a fun thing to do!! Good luck!!


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Hmmm. Thanks for the suggestion rmzbm, and for your thoughtful post, Evan&Anna's Mom.

True about the dryer, it is an old apartment-size dryer, and I just assumed pushing the button excessively would break it. But maybe it doesn't matter. It's also noisy and annoying, to be honest, to hear it buzz continuously.

On the dog and rabbit - folks suggested isolating the dog and supervising all interactions with the rabbit on my previous thread. But I can't see those things working here. We have a small apartment, there is really nowhere convenient to put the dog, plus it feels mean seperating her from the family. She is an old dog and enjoys laying curled up on the sofa.

And supervising the rabbit interactions constantly - I really don't have time for that. I do keep a close eye when my daughter is with the rabbit, and I often encourage and hooray when she is interacting appropriately. But I have other things I have to be doing, and by the time I've had my day at school, picked up my daughter from her caregiver, maybe had a mini-adventure outside of the house with her, and come home, I need to cook dinner, maybe tidy up, change clothes, do my reading, attempt a little homework. If I only let the rabbit out when I could be *right* there without focusing on anything else, it wouldn't get any exercise time.

Quote:

The problem with timeouts alone is that they don't teach what a child should do, only what they shouldn't do.
Yeah, this is a really good point. And I don't feel entirely comfortable with what I am doing currently, obviously.

But I am not perfect, and I am not super-energetic-engaged-all-the-time supermom, yk? I don't always have tonnes of attention to devote to a problem as it's occuring. It sounds awful, but it's true. When the dryer button thing happened this evening, I was dry-roasting rice, chopping mushrooms, and making a sandwich for my daughter. It's way more feasible to say, "If you press the button again I will put you on sofa," than it is to distract her and engage with her in another room.

The ignoring thing sounds about my speed tho.









I'm thinking the issues this brings up for me are about balance. My needs vs hers. And the needs of others in the household vs. hers. I need to be able to focus on other things, and not drop everything because she is harrassing a pet or using something in the household in a way that will break it. The bunny needs to be able to exercise without being harmed. The dog needs to be able to sleep in the middle of things without being harrassed.


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## Aeress (Jan 25, 2005)

i often talk with other parents about the idea of a threat...i totally agree with using "if you do this, I will do that" as being a threat. so I try to change to using what the child can do but in some instances, I will tell my daughter when you hit me it hurts, I am going to hold your hand so you can not hurt me. my dd is 4 btw...usually a easy mannered kiddo, but she just hasn't been herself....
so, i agree with taking away the threats but it is hard to get out of doing...I find myself using threats more often than I would like these days *sigh*


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Is it a threat, or is it information about what will happen?

I tend to think a threat is something that isn't followed through on, or something mean/violent.

What is wrong with telling her that if she does x, I will do y? I'm not getting it. I think it is more fair for her to have a chance to stop doing whatever it is before she gets a consequence imposed from me.


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## Heffernhyphen (May 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*

Then if she presses it again, I put her on the sofa, and she is immediately allowed to get off, but just this action usually means she dissolves into hysterical tears. And I comfort her of course.


Although I have very few memories of childhood, I do distinctly remember how affectionate my mother was after she spanked me. As the third child, with two siblings very close to my age, I didn't get much overt affection. I clearly remember thinking, "Hey, I can stand a little spanking if the payoff is all this loving." Be careful that the comforting isn't so desirable that she misbehaves just to get there.

I can't imagine a much more gentle "punishment" than sitting on the couch for a few seconds and then getting comforted by mommy. The fact that she dissolves into tears probably isn't so much because she's offended by the punishment, but because she was made to stop doing something she wanted to do. Damn that growing independence!

If the time outs are working, why would you worry about stopping them? It's working, and she's not getting hurt at all. The dryer, however, really could get hurt. My little laundry helper also loves to push all the buttons and spin all the knobs. Not only does he frequently change the water temperature and level and stop the dryer before the load is done, but he also pulled the whole front off the control panel. Now it falls off all the time and just hangs there dangling by tons of internal wires.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

My dd has learned to respond very well to 'if you do that again, we'll have to take x away', spoken pleasantly and matter-of-factly. She knows from experience that this is her final warning. If she does it again, oh well, there it goes, too bad. I wrote about how I used this at an early age to get her to stop banging her cup on the table at dinner, which turned out to be a controversial thread, but which was very helpful to me in terms of establishing some boundaries with her.

I'm not sure how that translates to the dryer. But with the dog and bunny it's pretty easy to remove them to another room. And with many other contrary behaviors as well. It seems like most annoying kid behavior does involve some sort of accessory.

I very rarely use this tactic, as I think it would lose it's impact if overused, but I agree with your methods. The absolute necessity is your consistency. It won't work if you're not completely consistent. If you SAY it then you must DO it.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heffernhyphen*
Although I have very few memories of childhood, I do distinctly remember how affectionate my mother was after she spanked me. As the third child, with two siblings very close to my age, I didn't get much overt affection. I clearly remember thinking, "Hey, I can stand a little spanking if the payoff is all this loving." Be careful that the comforting isn't so desirable that she misbehaves just to get there.

I'm sorry to hear that your mama was not very affectionate apart from after a spanking.









Just to be clear, I am a very affectionate and overtly loving mama, so when I comfort her after putting her on the sofa, I do it just as I would if she were crying for any other reason.

Quote:

I can't imagine a much more gentle "punishment" than sitting on the couch for a few seconds and then getting comforted by mommy. The fact that she dissolves into tears probably isn't so much because she's offended by the punishment, but because she was made to stop doing something she wanted to do. Damn that growing independence!

If the time outs are working, why would you worry about stopping them? It's working, and she's not getting hurt at all. The dryer, however, really could get hurt.
Yeah, this is pretty much my line of thought. I don't really have much to go by, however, because my parents were abusive and cruel. I pretty much am clueless about parenting, and have to figure out each new hurdle as we come to it. I posted this thread because this is the closest thing I know to a haven of GD, and I want to know what the mamas here think of my current solution. It is really important to me to parent well, in a manner that is as loving and respectful of my daughter as possible. Without letting her run the place.

Quote:

My little laundry helper also loves to push all the buttons and spin all the knobs. Not only does he frequently change the water temperature and level and stop the dryer before the load is done, but he also pulled the whole front off the control panel. Now it falls off all the time and just hangs there dangling by tons of internal wires.
Oh, that sucks! They are little wrecking balls, aren't they? So much stuff gets broken around here, and my kid is relatively calm compared to some of the other more physical toddlers I know.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

I would do away with the "if you do this *I* am going to do this." What about rephrasing it to something like this:

Please do not push the dryer button - it can break the dryer to push it when we are not using it.
*she pushes dryer button again*
If you keep pushing the dryer button you will have to find a new place to play
*she pushes the button again*

Then directly redirect her and move her somewhere else (the couch, wherever). That way its not about what you are going to do TO her. I actually don't know if that will help, it was just an idea, LOL. Honestly I would probably do this:

Please do not push the dryer button - it can break the dryer to push it when we are not using it.
*she pushes dryer button again*
Move her somewhere else and give her something else to play with.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Time outs are better than spanking and such. But I still think they become less effective with time, do not address what they *should* do, and can make some children feel a withdrawal of love. However, i know how frustrating a 2.5 yo can be. I have a 2.75 yo







I really find calm discussion to be my best parenting tool. On the dryer, for instance...... We have had stuff like this. We have a last-legs TV that we really cannot afford to replace. Dd really liked pushing the power button on and off and on and off...... I tried ignoring the bahvior at first. Many many times, dd just needs to do it 50 or so times then never touched it again. But if she thinks I have any sort of stake in the annoyabce of it, she might persist just to see what happens. But after the 50 times, she either sensed it was getting to me or wa struly fascinated by it and could not stop. So we had a long discussion about how the TV was old, she likes to watch movies, and it might stop working if she kept pushing the button. That might have done the trick, but I did not give it the chance. I found something else really fun to turn on and off. In this case it was a cheapo solar powered calculator. I use it for bills. It is pretty much indestructable. I showed her that whenever she had the urge to push buttons, this was a really fun way to get the urge out....and she could take it anywhere! And look! Numbers! Yeehaw! She never touched the TV button again.

As for pets, I almost find punishment to be dangerous. If the only consequence for being mean to pets is the couch, dc might think it is OK to torment them as long as he/she does not get caught. We have two cats. One is elderly and cranky. It was simply not safe to allow dd to think she might be allowed to torment it. SO unfortuantely, until dd could without a doubt undertsand gentle pet handling, we had to always supervise 100%. As soon as dd got too rough, we stepped in a helped them through the process. it took A LOT of talks, but after a while she fully understood and could be trusted. Some things only have a slow solution.

However, really, most things can be helped quickly with calm, out-of-the-heat-of-the-monent discussion.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

How long have you had the rabbit? I am usually opposed to the idea of giving up any pet that you have brought into your family. But in this case -- I wonder if I might chalk up the whole idea of a pet rabbit for a toddler as a disaster, and find a new (safer) home for the bunny. Perhaps in a classroom somewhere? I'm suggesting this really hesitantly though, because I don't want your dd to be traumatized. Its just that I cannot imagine *any* 2 yo. being able to play safely with a rabbit without a lot of intense supervision. And if you can't provide that, then I'm really fearful for the rabbit.

Can you tape over the button on the dryer? Or block it somehow? If not, then I think letting her play with it steadily until the novelty wears off would be the best approach. Let her exhaust the activity. She'll move on eventually.

I don't know about the dog. I had a puppy and a toddler at one point, and it was easier to crate the dog when things got out of hand. Or put the dog outside. And it was not a big deal to teach both toddler and dog how to behave with each other. But an old dog must be really different.


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## Steve's Wife (Jan 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Is it a threat, or is it information about what will happen?

I tend to think a threat is something that isn't followed through on, or something mean/violent.

What is wrong with telling her that if she does x, I will do y? I'm not getting it. I think it is more fair for her to have a chance to stop doing whatever it is before she gets a consequence imposed from me.

If you don't stop misbehaving, we're going to leave the grocery store. If you continue to to throw toys, you may not play with them anymore. These situations are teaching children consequences. Yes, I agree that we should babyproof as much as possible. But it is also our responsibily as parents to teach children that they cannot do whatever they want, when ever they want. There are certain things, like teasing the dog or abusing expensive appliances, that we need to teach our children not to do. Then again...I'm not the most GD type person on these threads, and I still don't think timeouts are a bad idea as long as they are balanced with positive reinforcement.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I don't know. We got the rabbit recently, and she was really gentle at first. And she is gentle most of the time. She knows how to be gentle.

The dog I don't want to crate.

I really don't feel like it is unrealistic to teach my daughter that she needs to respect the beings and things around her. She is an intelligent child, and I don't believe she is incapable of learning that.

I don't want to create an overly entitled child, who lives in a household where everyone around bends over backwards to their own detriment, rather than setting limits with her. I don't think setting limits is a bad thing.

I also have to carve out some sanity and space for myself, yk? I am a single mama. Her father takes her 20 hours/week. With my current schedule, I only have 7 hours once every two weeks where I am not either parenting or in school. We need to function as a team, and to be honest a lot of the solutions suggested here sound like a LOT of work to accomplish basically the same thing as I am accomplishing with the time-out.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Steve's Wife*
If you don't stop misbehaving, we're going to leave the grocery store. If you continue to to throw toys, you may not play with them anymore. These situations are teaching children consequences. Yes, I agree that we should babyproof as much as possible. But it is also our responsibily as parents to teach children that they cannot do whatever they want, when ever they want. There are certain things, like teasing the dog or abusing expensive appliances, that we need to teach our children not to do.

ITA. In the world there are externally imposed consequences everywhere. If you speed, you get a ticket. If you do a crappy job at work, you get a warning letter (threat?), and then you get fired.

She is part of a larger social system (our family) and I think she needs to learn how to be within it.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

I wouldn't give her the 'chance" to repeat the offense. IF messing with the knob is an issue I'd tell her "no' and make it happen.

Please do not push the dryer button - it can break the dryer to push it when we are not using it.
IF she says no repeat the request and help her find something else.
Don't press the button it could break come help mommy take the towels inside and redirrect her to something else.

Deanna


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

This kind of thing - redirection, distraction, does not work with her. She is the sort of child where you say, "Do you want to wear the red shorts or the green dress today?" and she says, "I'm not getting dressed!" If I were to just ask her not to mess with the bunny/dryer/dog and attempt to interest her in another activity, she would just ignore me and keep doing what she is doing. If I physically remove her, she will have a tantrum, and get up and go back as soon as she can, or crumple in my arms in tears, as she has been doing over the whole sofa thing.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

I thought you said the time out thing was working.... I think the suggestions were to get around the threat, not the taking her out of the situation (at least mine were).


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Sorry, yeah, I know your suggestions were about getting around the threat. Which I'm not sure I want to do, that's why I posted asking what's so bad about the "threat?"

A lot of ppl's suggestions are about getting around the time out, and that's what I'm responding to as well. I'd love to get around the time out, but the animals and things need to be respected without being removed, and I need to not go freaking crazy dealing with this kid.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

OK, here's my 2 dollars' worth (cause we all know I'm never brief enough for 2 cents







). I don't think there's anything wrong with her being removed to the sofa, I would just try to find a different way to word it....cause there is something about your posted wording that makes me feel oogy, but I can't exactly say why. YES, as adults living in the real world, there are consequences to our actions, but I think that as an adult, consequences coming from our "age peers" (other adults) don't seem as potentially intimidating and domineering, and a traffic ticket or letter from my boss, well, I don't have a close loving relationship with a cop or my boss, so it's really not the same thing at all. Hey, I think I just figured out why it makes me feel oogy! I just don't know if I worded it well above.

So, ahem...back on topic. I don't think there's anything wrong with removing her to the couch, or wherever about the dryer. I'd probably just do as a PP suggested and change the wording a bit (I never thought I'd be so caught up in semantics as a parent, but I've found it really does make a difference). I try to set up the "rules" in our house as ones that we all follow so that it's less parents vs kids, and more of all of us respecting things together. So maybe instead of this,

Me: "Please stop pressing the dryer button. That can break the dryer."
Her: "I will press the dryer button."
Me: "You need to stop pressing the dryer button. If you press it again, I will put you on sofa."

try this?

Me: "Please stop pressing the dryer button. That can break the dryer."
Her: "I will press the dryer button."
Me: "Please leave the button alone and come X with me." (She presses the button) (You walk her to the couch, saying, "We need to not play with that button, it could break the dryer.") (You sit on the couch, and maybe say something short and sweet about how you need the dryer for drying clothes, and it's not a toy to play with.)

Same physical redirection and removal, same 'consequence', but it gets rid of the "I'm going to X to you", and still sends the same message that if she plays with the dryer button, she's gonna be removed from the room.

Also, if she's going to the dryer a lot when you're not even using it, I'd just close/lock the door, or find some other way (a gate?) to not even make it an opportunity. Again, she's 2.5, not 7, and I think modifying environments for a child under 4 is completely different than "bending to the whim" of a 6-yr-old. It's a continual process, not just one day everything is "proofed" and then one day it's all open and available. It evolves based on their development. We had our tupperware cabinet bungeed shut from 18 mos until a few weeks ago - now DS stays out of it even though the bungee cord isn't there; a prime example of proofing as need be, then modifying as the child develops.

I also understand your point about a child needing to learn to respect beigns around her; again, my issue is that she's only 2.5, and just beginning to really "get" the world at all.....and that's awfully young to be expected to be able to be unsupervised and empathetic to an animal, who can't verbalize to her (at least in English) that they don't like being hit, and redirect her, etc...., like we can. Since the rabbit is relatively new, I would really, really consider giving the rabbit to a place that has older children. Then, you would just have to worry about the dog interactions, and that would reduce one aspect right now. Years ago (pre DS), we were looking into getting a dog from a breeder, and one of the questions was, "do you have children under 5 years old, or are you planning on starting a family in the next few years?" and at first I didn't get it, but now that I have a toddler, I totally get it....to me it's not worth risking injury to the pet or the child...the empathy and respect will develop, on their own timeline by your example and modeling, but I don't feel it's right to push it before it's really developmentally appropriate. Our first pet was a fish when I was around 4, then a guinea pig at 5, and then a dog at 6....and by that time my empathy AND impulse control had naturally developed such that my parents didn't have to monitor us much.

I'm all for having expectations, but developmentally realistic ones. I think expecting a 2.5 yr old to have the impulse control and emapthy to be able to interact safely with household pets without constant supervision is asking to much. And as for, "they have to learn eventually", I agree. But we don't start learning math at 4 with algebra....you have to work up to things, and just because you don't understand algebra when you're 6 doesn't mean you won't understand it when you're 12. So just because your child isn't empathetic at 2.5, doesn't mean they won't be at 7...

I guess that's the whole jist of my post - just cause something is happening at 2, or 3, or 5, doesn't mean that it needs to be "corrected" for it to be grown out of...many, many things children do are natural developmental stages that will naturally be grown out of, whether we do anything or not. How we handle the situations as parents most assuredly will set the tone and guide the evolution of their growing out of it, but many issues resolve on their own anyway.

Hope this was helpful.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *donosmommy04*
Our first pet was a fish when I was around 4, then a guinea pig at 5, and then a dog at 6....and by that time my empathy AND impulse control had naturally developed such that my parents didn't have to monitor us much..

Gosh, our dogs and cats were integral members of our family. I can't imagine a kid growing up without a dog. I could see not having some tiny frail animal, or an animal prone to aggression.

The best thing is if you can get a puppy while the child is still very young. They play together naturally and bond much tighter than if the dog is older when baby arrives.

Our dd loves our two dogs tremendously, and they her.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Well, in the case of my suggestions, I know they sound time consuming. But if it is a regular pattern in your house to always discuss and to try and find some other outlet for an experimental activity, then it really does save time. At least it does in our case. Quick fixes rarely work in the long run for us. I know about being time strapped. A small investment in initial time for dc to see that you want her to understand and can help her find other outlets can reap faster "compliance" int he long run. If she trusts that you care to help her get what she wants, she is more likely to listen when you need her to help you get what you want. At least that has been my experience. I do not think that is "bending over backwards" for a child.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Just for the sake of balance, since you asked specifically about how gentle we thought this was... I would do something more along these lines.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper*
So we had a long discussion about how the TV was old, she likes to watch movies, and it might stop working if she kept pushing the button. That might have done the trick, but I did not give it the chance. I found something else really fun to turn on and off. In this case it was a cheapo solar powered calculator. I use it for bills. It is pretty much indestructable. I showed her that whenever she had the urge to push buttons, this was a really fun way to get the urge out....and she could take it anywhere! And look! Numbers! Yeehaw! She never touched the TV button again.

I agree that what you tell her is a threat. It doesn't have to be an empty threat to be a threat. And violence is really subjective. I'm not saying at all that you are being violent, but she may feel emotionally shamed or otherwise fearful, based on your response.

I haven't found that approach to be very useful. DS, who is extremely active and independent, needs to get his curiosity out. So we show him how to channel it in ways that we are all OK with.

I bet that even if your DD is not rebelling about the dryer, she is likely brewing something inside that will show itself later. Threats usually just serve to shame, and that doesn't teach very well - it only motivates little ones to avoid the bad feeling.

I'd personally prefer to help DS think/learn about helping keep our things working than thinking about how to avoid something bad.

Another example: Even just this AM, DH was working from home, and DS got really frustrated that he wasn't getting more attention from him. So he decided that the solution was to stomp on his computer until it broke into 100 pieces. (his words)

We knew what it was really about and tried putting the puter away for a while, I drew a laptop out of 2 sheets of paper stapled together for him to smash, we looked for other things he could stomp on, and directly addressed his need for Daddy's attention. _Nothing worked!_ He just stayed hyper-frustrated and had his mind set of shashing that computer.

It didn't change until I reiterated him exactly what he wanted to do, in his language, and told him that I wish I could help him smash that computer because it's so important to him, but that I just couldn't. I assured him that I wanted to help him. He wept a little more, melted into a hug and didn't talk about the computer again (which so far is still intact).

The point I'm trying to make is that even if it seems to be working, there may be a price that isn't obvious yet. I think you can't go wrong making sure the DC hears that you care about her desires, even when they can't do the thing that they think is just too cool. IME just that can erase the impulse for the specific thing.

HTH!


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Yooper, I agree that in the end your approach is the least time-consumning. Has been for us!


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

I understand that, realistically, you really do need a quick fix, because when you're fixing dinner or whatever and you're in school full-time, you can't have a heart-to-heart, or what passes for one with a 2.5 year old, every 10 minutes...

I wonder though, if what feels 'off' about what you're doing right now is that it frames things in terms of a power struggle between the two of you. I agree with the previous poster that taking the "I will do X if you do Y" out of it is a good idea. If a situation develops that shouldn't e.g. her torturing the dog, I see nothing wrong with removing her from it if you have to, but avoiding that terminology, and, wherever possible, heading off a power struggle before it starts.

Also, a propos of time constraints, are you sure this method is really saving you time, if it ends with her in hysterics and you comforting her? That's got to cut into dinner-making time!

So, I wonder if maybe you can always try to give her a little job while your're making dinner. You're chopping mushrooms, give her a couple to 'wash,' or a couple of spoons and forks to put on the table, etc. Does the dog have a special spot it can go to where she can't get at it? I know our cat was very adept at climbing up somewhere high, or squeezing somewhere our daughter couldn't get. If the dog doesn't have a spot like this, can you create one?

I may agree on getting rid of the rabbit for now - a dog, a rabbit, and a 2 year old in a small apartment is pushing it...

Good luck!


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

I'm all for having expectations, but developmentally realistic ones. I think expecting a 2.5 yr old to have the impulse control and emapthy to be able to interact safely with household pets without constant supervision is asking to much. And as for, "they have to learn eventually", I agree. But we don't start learning math at 4 with algebra....you have to work up to things, and just because you don't understand algebra when you're 6 doesn't mean you won't understand it when you're 12. So just because your child isn't empathetic at 2.5, doesn't mean they won't be at 7...
I agree with this, and would take it a step further by saying that the way you actually teach a child to be gentle with an animal is to by being very involved whenever the animal is handled, and coaching her through it. And its too much to expect a toddler to learn more efficiently than this.

And I think this example relates very well to the more general topic in this thread -- whether a child needs to learn boundries by imposed consequences. And I would say that whatever the "real world" is like, 2.5 is very young and learning experiences need to be tailored to her level. The best way to prepare her for the way that people act is by shadowing and coaching her.

As far as empathy -- the vast majority of 2.5 year olds have not developed the cognitive ability to "put themselves in someone else's shoes." She simply cannot fully comprehend an idea like "what the rabbit must be feeling." She may be taking steps in that direction, but right now her own perceptions and her own experiences of life take center stage in her developing mind. Combine that with a lack of impulse control typical for a 2 yo. and what you end up with is a small, bright, inquisitive person who must be closely supervised while playing with rabbits.

Reflecting on my own exprience, I think that its too easy to have high expecations of first children.

Quote:

Gosh, our dogs and cats were integral members of our family. I can't imagine a kid growing up without a dog. I could see not having some tiny frail animal, or an animal prone to aggression.
Yeah, Blessed, I agree that a dog or a cat is a different situation than a rabbit. For one thing, even if they start out 'frail' they grow out of that phase very rapidly. They are tough creatures, and they also have the capacity to "get away" when they really need to. All our animals have places they know that they can escape to when the kids are too much for them. The cats go to the laundry room through a flap door, and the dog goes to her crate when she wants her own space.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *donosmommy04*
I don't think there's anything wrong with her being removed to the sofa, I would just try to find a different way to word it....cause there is something about your posted wording that makes me feel oogy, but I can't exactly say why.

Yeah, there is something about it that makes me feel oogy too, and I can't say exactly why. I mean, obviously I'm controlling her. I really don't see it as a threat, or in any case as a bad thing to tell a child "if you do x, I will do y." Like I don't think it's going to mess up her self esteem, or shame her, inherently. But it is an overt expression of control, for sure. And I guess I'm uncomfortable with that.

Quote:

YES, as adults living in the real world, there are consequences to our actions, but I think that as an adult, consequences coming from our "age peers" (other adults) don't seem as potentially intimidating and domineering, and a traffic ticket or letter from my boss, well, I don't have a close loving relationship with a cop or my boss, so it's really not the same thing at all.
Yes, I see that. It's definitely about me, her mama, controlling her behaviour and doing something to her that she doesn't want done, namely physically moving her.

Quote:

So, ahem...back on topic. I don't think there's anything wrong with removing her to the couch, or wherever about the dryer. I'd probably just do as a PP suggested and change the wording a bit (I never thought I'd be so caught up in semantics as a parent, but I've found it really does make a difference). I try to set up the "rules" in our house as ones that we all follow so that it's less parents vs kids, and more of all of us respecting things together. So maybe instead of this,

Me: "Please stop pressing the dryer button. That can break the dryer."
Her: "I will press the dryer button."
Me: "You need to stop pressing the dryer button. If you press it again, I will put you on sofa."

try this?

Me: "Please stop pressing the dryer button. That can break the dryer."
Her: "I will press the dryer button."
Me: "Please leave the button alone and come X with me." (She presses the button) (You walk her to the couch, saying, "We need to not play with that button, it could break the dryer.") (You sit on the couch, and maybe say something short and sweet about how you need the dryer for drying clothes, and it's not a toy to play with).

Same physical redirection and removal, same 'consequence', but it gets rid of the "I'm going to X to you", and still sends the same message that if she plays with the dryer button, she's gonna be removed from the room.
Yeah, I think I will try this and see how it goes. She is pretty smart to power dynamics, and what I don't want to do is be passive-aggressively controlling her, like controlling her but prettying it up. But perhaps prettying it up will change her experience of it into something nicer, not simply serve as a mask for what is really going on, yk? I'm gonna try it.

Quote:

Also, if she's going to the dryer a lot when you're not even using it, I'd just close/lock the door, or find some other way (a gate?) to not even make it an opportunity. Again, she's 2.5, not 7, and I think modifying environments for a child under 4 is completely different than "bending to the whim" of a 6-yr-old.
Well I've definitely modified the environment to a degree. Like, suddenly she is going up the handmade staircase to the back window that we use for the dog to go out. This is dangerous, and also means she ends up in the backyard with no immediate way for me to get to her. Bad scene. So now there is a babygate on the door to the room with that staircase.

And the other week she grabbed the kitchen scissors, which I had been accustomed to leaving around, because she always used to listen to me when I said they were dangerous. Now the kitchen scissors are put away in the drawer whenever I'm done using them.

I don't feel like she needs to comply in every way, it's just that there are some things that would be really difficult to modify for her, and I feel like there ought to be a balance - some things I modify for her, other things she needs to learn to leave alone.

Quote:

I'm all for having expectations, but developmentally realistic ones. I think expecting a 2.5 yr old to have the impulse control and emapthy to be able to interact safely with household pets without constant supervision is asking to much.
To be clear, she is not unsupervised with the pets. I supervise and also do other things. I'm just not right there doing nothing but watching/helping every time she is with the pets. I keep a close eye and give verbal reminders, and also sometimes go over and assist with the interaction.

I guess I'm not seeing this as a developmental thing re: not knowing how to interact with pets. If that were my view, I would get rid of the bunny in a heartbeat, no doubt. But the bunny is great for her in many ways, 90% of the time her interactions with it are positive and appropriate, and she loves it.

And I see the problems we do have with the pets as a manifestation of another thing that IMO is happening developmentally right now. I believe she is testing at this point, looking to see where the limits are with me. Last night she took off running down the street (on the sidewalk), and wouldn't come back and hop in the car to get our friend despite my calling. I ran to get her, and when I caught her arm she went all noodly so it was hard to bring her back.

This to me is not about developmentally not knowing it's not cool to run down the street, or to grab the scissors, or chase the old dog. It's about deliberately pushing the boundaries and doing things that are not allowed, with intention, kwim?


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## morning glory (Dec 8, 2005)

I really agree with the wording stuff...its something I'm trying to remember to do with my sons. Instead of saying *I* will impose a consequence I try to say *you* will have to x,y,z....

Like..."You can't chase the dog. She is trying to rest. You will have to sit on the couch if the chasing doesn't stop." or "You can't chase the dog. Please sit on the couch until you feel like you can stop chasing the dog." Because really I think sometimes they actually CANNOT stop what they are doing...its just too good to stop. And it may help the meltdowns for her to know that its not *punishment* its just down time.

I can see that you don't want to crate the dog. We had the same dog problem and managed to some extent to redirect it to caring for the dogs while they are sleeping...make a big deal about "oh look, Nikki is sleeping...shhhhh" and tip toe around for a bit. DS1 (3.5) would even take a baby blanket and cover them...or come into the kitchen and tell me to keep it down "Tagg is trying to sleep!"...that way helping the dog sleep is the activity rather than waking the dog up. And really they sort of lost interest in the dogs at all after awhile...in waking them up anyway. Now if they would just lose interest in the cats...

Really I think what you are doing is fine...I agree that what you are giving are consequneces not threats...just tweak your wording and carry on.

Casey


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *morning glory*
I really agree with the wording stuff...its something I'm trying to remember to do with my sons. Instead of saying *I* will impose a consequence I try to say *you* will have to x,y,z....

Like..."You can't chase the dog. She is trying to rest. You will have to sit on the couch if the chasing doesn't stop." or "You can't chase the dog. Please sit on the couch until you feel like you can stop chasing the dog." Because really I think sometimes they actually CANNOT stop what they are doing...its just too good to stop. And it may help the meltdowns for her to know that its not *punishment* its just down time.

Wow, that for me would be totally doable. And would feel better.

Quote:

I can see that you don't want to crate the dog. We had the same dog problem and managed to some extent to redirect it to caring for the dogs while they are sleeping...make a big deal about "oh look, Nikki is sleeping...shhhhh" and tip toe around for a bit. DS1 (3.5) would even take a baby blanket and cover them...or come into the kitchen and tell me to keep it down "Tagg is trying to sleep!"...that way helping the dog sleep is the activity rather than waking the dog up. And really they sort of lost interest in the dogs at all after awhile...in waking them up anyway. Now if they would just lose interest in the cats...
Again, totally doable. She loves the pets, and loves to make games out of being sweet to them. With the bunny, she knows it is not okay to ever pick it up, because bunny will be scared. She knows that we try to sit still and wait for bunny to come to us. And she gets really excited, and says, "Mama! My bunny is smelling me!" And I say, "Awww, bunny loves you, doesn't she? When you sit still, bunny comes right over!"

I could do more positives, I guess. I think too often if it's going well I ignore it and use the opportunity to get my stuff done, and I only intervene when it goes sour. Which is a mistake.

I could also be more sure to make a contract with her before the activity. Like, if she wants bunny out of the cage, I could make sure to say, "We can have bunny out of the cage if you can be gentle with her. Can you be gentle?" Usually if she has agreed to something in advance she is likely to follow through. Or if she doesn't follow through, she is less likely to freak out when I do something like put the bunny away.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Some great suggestions so far, for sure. I agree with Donosmommy, and others, that just because "the real world" is a certains way, that doesn't meant that your house and your family have to be that way.
Could you try saying something like- "I don't want you to keep pushing that button. I'm worried that it will break. Perhaps we could cover it up to take away the temptation to touch it?" and have her help find something to cover it with. OR ask her for another solution. "Perhaps we could go play in the living room, to take away the temptation to touch it." Have her assist in that solution too.
I think its a lot to ask a young kid to just STOP doing something that they already have their mind set on doing. Find another activity for her to transition her thoughts to. One that's related, so it doesn't feel like "stopping" it feels more like "finding a mutually agreeable solution." It's helping HER find ways to help control her own impulses, too. Helping her to do the socially acceptable thing.
I'm big on "honoring the impulse." So, what's her impulse? Playing with buttons? It kinda seems like there is more to it than that.

As far as chasing the dog and bunny, tell her that "Dog doesn't like to be chased. Look, he's running away." Tell her other ways that she can play with the dog. Or find other things she can chase







But I see nothing wrong with physically stopping her from bothering an animal, if nothing else helps.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
I could also be more sure to make a contract with her before the activity. Like, if she wants bunny out of the cage, I could make sure to say, "We can have bunny out of the cage if you can be gentle with her. Can you be gentle?" Usually if she has agreed to something in advance she is likely to follow through. Or if she doesn't follow through, she is less likely to freak out when I do something like put the bunny away.

The only thing I'd be concerned about there, is that if you say that to her, she will know that you don't *expect* that she would be geltle with bunny, of her own volition. And even if you don't, I'd be wary of letting dc *know* that you expect she would be rough.
Perhaps "bunny wants to be played with gently. If anyone is accidentally too rough, he'll want to go back in his cage."
I dunno- that's not perfect, by a long shot. But you get the point. Something to say "i know you'll play gently if you can, but if its hard to stay gentle, we'll try again later." something like that.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed*
Gosh, our dogs and cats were integral members of our family. I can't imagine a kid growing up without a dog. I could see not having some tiny frail animal, or an animal prone to aggression.

The best thing is if you can get a puppy while the child is still very young. They play together naturally and bond much tighter than if the dog is older when baby arrives.

Our dd loves our two dogs tremendously, and they her.

But I did grow up with a dog. I was 6 when we got him, and he died when I was in college....and I cried for days....we were totally bonded.

I just see so many people having problems with animal/toddler interactions, that it's not worth it to me, and not fair to either the pet or the child.

DH agrees, and we WILL be getting a dog in a few years, just not now. It's what works for us.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm*
What I would do it TOTALLY ignore her when she is doing that. Leave the room. When she sees you don't care I bet ya anything it's no longer a fun thing to do!! Good luck!!

Withdrawing from a child in this way is using your attachment as a weapon. It is not GD in any sense of the word, and it will also backfire immensely. You'll end up with an insecure child with a whole host of behavioural problems such that you'll long for the day when pushing a dryer button repeatedly was the worst of your issues.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
This to me is not about developmentally not knowing it's not cool to run down the street, or to grab the scissors, or chase the old dog. It's about deliberately pushing the boundaries and doing things that are not allowed, with intention, kwim?

Ah... but at 2.5 she may know that she's not supposed to run down the street or whatever, but she probably doesn't have the ability to stop herself. Impulse control developes at about age 3, give or take. But just because she is old enough to UNDERSTAND what she is or isn't supposed to do doesn't mean she has the ABILITY to make herself comply. Two totally different skills. And the same applies with empathy with the pets -- it really is expecting too much of a 2 YO to have that ability and apply it.

You might want to check out some books on what developmentally appropriate expectations are. I know I have seen lots of recommendations here before, but I can't come up with anything off the top of my head. I know, you said you were in school and more reading is probably the last thing you need. But it does sound like it might help you reorient your approach.

I think someone really tagged it when they suggested that you need to be more proactive rather than reactive, especially during the times when you need to do things like make dinner. She's not going to get anywhere near the dryer or the pets if she is helping you with dinner. Or doing some other really cool activity at your feet. And avoiding a situation is so much better than having to react to it.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
Withdrawing from a child in this way is using your attachment as a weapon. It is not GD in any sense of the word, and it will also backfire immensely. You'll end up with an insecure child with a whole host of behavioural problems such that you'll long for the day when pushing a dryer button repeatedly was the worst of your issues.

Um, this is a bit over the top, isn't it? I mean, we're talkinga bout ignoring a behaviour, not locking her in the closet for the day or beating the child. Let's not blow it completely out of proportion.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

We need to function as a team, and to be honest a lot of the solutions suggested here sound like a LOT of work to accomplish basically the same thing as I am accomplishing with the time-out.
Yeah, but the time out scenario, however it is worded, is a short term fix. She's getting older, and bigger, and pretty soon the "you'll have to go sit on the couch" may be met with "NO! You can't make me!" as she runs from you. Then what? Are you going to chase her through the house to make her sit on the couch? Are you going to pry her hand off the button and carry a kicking flailing 3yo onto the couch? I say it's better to take the time now to lay the foundation for how you two interact. Relying on threats will always backfire, in my experience.

Here's how I learned how ineffective it is: My ds went through a phase of throwing toys. We used to warn/threaten/explain, whatever you want to call it, that if he threw the toy again we would take it away. He would throw it again, we'd take it away, he would get hysterical and beg for it back. Then we had to decide, well, when does he get it back? 5 minutes? A day? A week? Already we're feeling ridiculous, but we've got to stick by what we said, right? So we decide on a day. Fine. Then we get into a situation where he throws toys that he doesn't care about, just to tweak us. So we take it away, and he doesn't care. Now what? If we had taken a different approach, more along the lines of "Throwing toys is not a good idea, someone may get hurt or something may get broken, so how about we go play some baseball in the backyard/make cookies/play chase" or "you seem to be really upset about something" or just simply gone over and given him a hug and then initiated a tickle game, we would have saved ourselved not only a lot of agony, but a lot of time when all was said and done. We had of course explained these things to him before threatening, and done some half hearted distraction, but we we didn't take it to the next level of being proactive to head off the inevitable. We were too focused on needing to "teach him a lesson." The only lesson he learned was that he can piss us off by throwing toys.

And someone once pointed out something that I thought was very true: Threatening "if you do that one more time . . ." is basically giving them permission to do it one more time. I remember when my neighbor's son dumped sand over my son's head, and she said to him "If you do that one more time, we have to leave." Well of course, he did it again. She followed through, but still, my son had to have sand dumped on his head again.

I say put in the time and energy now to lay the foundation. It seems overwhelming thinking about it, but it is surprisingly rewarding.


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## BohoMama (Jun 26, 2003)

The dryer, however, really could get hurt. My little laundry helper also loves to push all the buttons and spin all the knobs. Not only does he frequently change the water temperature and level and stop the dryer before the load is done, but he also pulled the whole front off the control panel. Now it falls off all the time and just hangs there dangling by tons of internal wires.[/QUOTE]








HOLY BUCKETS!!!!!! YOU LET YOUR CHILD PLAY WITH EXPOSED WIRES IN A PLACE WHERE WATER SPLASHES AROUND?????

The real reason I wanted to post was to address the rabbit and dog problem. My suggestion is to invite a family over with a YOUNGER child than your own. That child will go for the animals and try to do some inappropriate things with them. You can then let your daughter "teach" the "baby" how to treat the animals right. This is likely to profoundly impress on her that she KNOWS how to be nice to them.


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

I don't know whether time-out is gd or not, that seems to be a slippery term, but it is punishment. Mild punishment, yes, but still punishment.

I can't help you with the animals, but here is what I would do about the dryer button: child pushes dryer button. I take her hand and say "please don't push the dryer button. That could break the dryer. We need the dryer to dry our clothes. It belongs to all of us." Child says "I will press the dryer button" and reaches for it again. I pull her hand back while saying "please don't push the button." Child reaches for it again; I pull her hand back while saying "please don't push the button." Repeat as necessary. The important things with this method are to do this *every time* she pushes the button, and to maintain a calm appearance and tone of voice (don't get visibly frustrated). That way, you are actually teaching her to refrain from pushing the button, not just punishing her into complience.

Of course you're still thwarting her desire to push the button, so maybe that's not totally gd either, but I think it's better and also more effective than punishment.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
And someone once pointed out something that I thought was very true: Threatening "if you do that one more time . . ." is basically giving them permission to do it one more time.

and also telling them than you *expect* that they WILL do it again.

I thought of something else to help with the dryer button. Have her help you push it, when you need to turn the dryer on. Let her know that it is only for drying clothes, and etc etc. That way, she gets to push the button (which she wants to do) AND she gets to do it in a positive way and not a negative way.
Do the redirection when she pushes it when you didn't ask her to, and tell her that you only need the dryer on when there's wet clothes in it.
This may not help right away if its already become too much of a "power struggle" (less about button pushing, and more about you saying "no" and her doing it anyways) but I think it will help in taking that away.
(I hate using the term "power struggle" because I think a lot of people see it as the *child* choosing the power struggle. I think a lot of it is attributable to parents, and could easily be averted early on)


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

I'm just going to lurk here and see what else is said. I find myself getting into power struggles with my 2yo, and I really want to find a better way. This thread has some great ideas


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Do you all ever use humor and teasing? I find myself using this ALOT and it seems to keep everything not so serious and maintains a good natured quality to our interactions.

For instance, this morning dd was standing on my laptop computer which was laying on the bed. I said 'oh no! That can break the computer. Please don't stand on it.'

She stepped off but then looked at me a little defiantly and hovered her foot over the top of it. My first inclination was to take some sort of stand and rise up to meet her challenge to my authority. Instead I crouched over with hands poised for tickling. She smiled and dropped her foot a little closer and I pounced on her, playfully tickling her and saying 'no, I said I DIDN'T want a baby on my computer! I DIDN'T want it! I didn't say that I WANTED a baby on my computer! I said I DIDN'T want it!!' We rolled on the bed, hugged, kissed and giggled and then she happily moved on to some other diversion.

I think some people might say that I'm giving positive reinforcement for misbehavior, but I don't think so. I think that keeping the constancy of our love and closeness has a much better effect on helping her to govern her behavior than reprimending her would. Because we are good friends and she feels affectionate and loving toward me, she WANTS to please, so she stayed away from my computer after that of her own accord, kwim?


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed*
Do you all ever use humor and teasing? I find myself using this ALOT and it seems to keep everything not so serious and maintains a good natured quality to our interactions.

Yep, and ita. I just wrote about it on another thread.








Sometimes I get all dramatic or mock-mad (trust me, he can totally tell the difference! even a tiny bit of "real" mad makes him cry), and it definitely diffuses situations and keeps things easier.
I find that whatever it was, the "positive attention" (or whatever) does not make him more likely to do it again. I think it helps him NOT do it again, because, for one, I'm not causing a power struggle. I'm also not leaving him in the situation to "fail" and therefore see himself as someone who is apt to do what I ask him not to do.
What he sees is that, with my help, he did the socially acceptable thing.


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## annarosa (Aug 30, 2004)

for me, I only use consequences like removing dd from the situation when the situation really HAS to have this response - ie. when I can think of nothing else that I can do/say
for me, pressing the button on the dryer would not be this type of situation - so the mild threat or implied threat that she will be removed would not really be the thing for me to do here - instead I would make the button or the room the dryer is in inaccessible to her ie. lock the door or tape the button
otherwise I would use a total ignoring type of tactic - so next time she pushes the button I would remove myself to somewhere else in the house and do something interesting until she gets totally fed up of pushing the button and getting NO reaction whatsoever from me.....
I am pretty sure that after a couple of times of getting no response she will just drop it


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

I think if your dc is doing whatever because he is just genuinely interested in it - likes to hear the buzzer on the dryer, for instance, then ignoring probably won't have much effect.

If he's doing it to get your attention (probably most likely), then ignoring will probably work eventually, but won't do much in terms of enhancing the closeness and bonding between the two of you. I don't really think it's an egregious withdrawal of affection, but it's not really a positive action either.

I like redirecting much better when possible. Think of the dryer buzzer as a little alarm button that dc is pushing when he needs to let you know that he's feeling neglected. When you're able to, you could go over, sweep dc up in your arms and say 'EXCUSE ME! I don't think you're supposed to be doing that! Take this!' and blow some razzberrys on his belly. Take him into the other room and sit for a minute or two while he gets engaged in another endevour.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

E&A's mom: you're right. I read that post wrong. Sorry!

blessed: ITA with the humour thing. It has saved my sanity on more than one occasion. It's hard when you don't feel like being funny, but then I find if I make the effort, it totally destresses ME, too.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:

Do you all ever use humor and teasing?
I find humor can diffuse so many situations! My dc, in most instances, respond to silliness and my not-all-that-funny-off-the-wall humor









I really dislike teasing though. Could you explain in more detail what you mean by teasing in a parenting context?


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## Heffernhyphen (May 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BohoMama*







HOLY BUCKETS!!!!!! YOU LET YOUR CHILD PLAY WITH EXPOSED WIRES IN A PLACE WHERE WATER SPLASHES AROUND?????


Only if I can't find any scissors for him to run with.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heffernhyphen*
Only if I can't find any scissors for him to run with.



















Do you all ever think that maybe we overthink this stuff a bit much? I mean, really, my bond with my child isn't going to be severed, her sense of self worth eternally depleted, because I walk out of the room when she pushes the dryer button.

Some of the stuff in this thread is really, really useful. But I also feel like, it is not THAT big of a deal that I pick her up and put her on the sofa, kwim? I am a loving mama, she knows she is loved and respected.


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## 2much2luv (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*









*Do you all ever think that maybe we overthink this stuff a bit much?* I mean, really, my bond with my child isn't going to be severed, her sense of self worth eternally depleted, because I walk out of the room when she pushes the dryer button.

Some of the stuff in this thread is really, really useful. But I also feel like, it is not THAT big of a deal that I pick her up and put her on the sofa, kwim? I am a loving mama, she knows she is loved and respected.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Thismama, your dd reminds me of someone. I can't quite place my finger on it .... I bet Cynthia Mosher would know.









My dd loves a good power struggle. She even loves a mediocre one. She finds them entertaining; I find them draining and occasionaly infuriating. Therefore, it is MY interest to avoid power struggles as much as possible. Arguing about something (commonly called "testing") is an end unto itself for some strong willed kids. They like to flex their muscle.

What works for us is this:

- For the important stuff, once she knows I don't want her doing certain things, I calmly and with little to no words remove her from the situation. We don't do a time out, but we will leave the problem. The challenge for me is to be as matter of fact as possible, because if she sees that I'm willing to engage in a power struggle, she'll persist in doing what I don't want her to do.

- For mediumly important stuff, I grit my teeth and do my best to ignore or prevent it. My best is still improving. I tend to snap when yet another mess has been made on purpose. I know the more zen I get, the less she'll do things to provoke me.

- For small stuff, I let it slide. Its a chilly morning and you want to run around the backyard naked? Have at it.

Honestly, your dd sounds like a hoot. The world needs strong-willed confident women. Too bad that raising them is so hard.







:


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dechen*
Honestly, your dd sounds like a hoot. The world needs strong-willed confident women. Too bad that raising them is so hard.







:

Yeah, it's true, my kid freaking rocks. I love love love her, she is hilarious and full of life and very much her own person.

I think I need that bumper sticker, "Question authority... but not your mother."


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## mummy marja (Jan 19, 2005)

thismama, I am totally with you. I think you are doing a great job, and i know it must be difficult as a single mom in a small space...you probably can't close the door to the dryer room!

Have you tried just letting her go crazy pushing the button for as long as she wants? Maybe she'll get tired of it... or maybe she won't! My 20 month old loved to turn light switches off and on (we have one low down where he can reach...this house was obviously not built by a parent of a 2 year old) We would always try to distract him or take him away, but finally just let him go nuts with it. And now he is completely bored with it. Also, maybe if you unplugged the dryer so that pushing the button wouldn't do anything? that would probably be pretty boring too.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
...my bond with my child isn't going to be severed, her sense of self worth eternally depleted, because I walk out of the room when she pushes the dryer button

No, it probably won't. And I think that applies to most of the mamas on this board. After all, none of us are perfect, and we all screw up, so whether we are screwing up because we know better but just don't have it in us at that moment, or because we think in this case it really is the way to go...well, kids are flexible.

I guess the reason we argue the small stuff here is because it helps with the overall picture and probably illustrates to newbies some of what GD is about in theory, kwim?


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:

Do you all ever think that maybe we overthink this stuff a bit much?










Yes, but, to rephrase Socrates: an examined life is worth living
















to *all* the loving mamas in GD


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Do you all ever think that maybe we overthink this stuff a bit much?

I was just saying the other day, I never thought I'd think so hard about being a parent, and about semantics, the subtleties of language, and intent...but it's so true.

AND, I think that a lot of the nitpicky discussions that we have here have helped me work through things I wasn't so sure of, and change my views on some things I thought I was sure of!

Also agree with Piglet68 that soem of these more detailed discussions can help out newbies too - I was one of them once!!


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## DannysMomma (Oct 5, 2004)

I have a friend who uses this approach with her 5 yo son. And when he refuses to "find someplace else to play" for whatever reason, she will jump in very swiftly, take his hand or pick him up, whichever is more appropriate at the time and say, "I see you need help finding something else to do. Here, let me help you."

It works! He gets mad for a minute, but she just tells him, "If you can do this (leave the park, put your book away, whatever) peacefully, then we'll have more time for xyz later." And she follows through.

I also wanted to comment on the "threat" aspect - I don't feel like what you're doing is threatening. As a pp said, threatening implies danger, or something not to be followed up on. I feel like what you are doing is explaining your expectations to your child and telling your child what will happen if your expectations are not met. And that serves as a warning as well, giving her the opportunity to stop herself (which she will learn to do once gets the hang of this impulse control thing). I honestly think your approach is very acceptable - it seems very gentle to me. You're removing her from the situation and comforting her when she objects. I do that, too. If my ds runs out in the parking lot, I tell him it's not safe to do so and take him inside. He doesn't like that either and screams bloody murder, but I hold him and love him and let him cry, and I know that what I'm doing is right for us.

Since you have concerns, it seems maybe there might be some tweaking you might want to do for your routine, only for your own peace of mind. I don't think you're causing any harm to your kiddo or your relationship with her though. Good luck in finding something that works for both of you!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PatchyMama*
I would do away with the "if you do this *I* am going to do this." What about rephrasing it to something like this:

Please do not push the dryer button - it can break the dryer to push it when we are not using it.
*she pushes dryer button again*
If you keep pushing the dryer button you will have to find a new place to play
*she pushes the button again*

Then directly redirect her and move her somewhere else (the couch, wherever). That way its not about what you are going to do TO her. I actually don't know if that will help, it was just an idea, LOL. Honestly I would probably do this:

Please do not push the dryer button - it can break the dryer to push it when we are not using it.
*she pushes dryer button again*
Move her somewhere else and give her something else to play with.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia*
I really dislike teasing though. Could you explain in more detail what you mean by teasing in a parenting context?

Sorrry, I blew by this earlier.

Teasing can be mean spirited and passive aggressive, can't it? That's not what I'm talking about with dd.

An example would be, carrying her away from whatever mischief she's into, setting her on the couch. Then announcing to dh 'have you seen dd? I seem to have lost track of her' and sitting down so that dd is pinned into the cushion. Then we'll go on with 'dd? Puppy, have you seen dd? Dd! Where are you?' the entire time of which she is giggling loudly behind my back. At some point she'll stick her head around and say 'boo!' and we exclaim 'there you are!' and smother her with kisses.

Or swooping her up, tossing her head first over one shoulder and announcing 'what's this sack of potatoes doing out here? I'd better go put it in the cupboard.'

I would never do teasing that was belittling or hurtful to dd.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

I do not believe a threat is only attached to danger. If I threatened to throw away dd's favorite toy or to make her sit on the stairs for 5 minutes, it is still a threat. And if I carry it out, it is still punishment. A threat and a warning can be the same thing but sometimes is not. A warning can be a way to give someone a heads up......."I am about to throw up", "A thunderstorm is coming your way", "the car is almost out of gas", etc..... A threat is a warnign that a parent attaches artificial consequences to. And artificial consequences are a nice way of saying punishment.

So really what it boils down to is whether or not you (collective you) believe that punishment has a place in the way you choose to parent and whether you feel it is gentle. I do not. However, there is no definition of gentle parenting. That is a very personal decision. The OP asked whether her method for dealing with certain "problem behavior" was gentle or not. Well, that depends on your definition of gentle. In my book, no. However many have chimed in that they do feel it fits within thier definition.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Well, what is overthinking to some, can be crutial distictions for a child.

I think that children's perception is incredibly subtle, perhaps because they are so enmeshed in our attitudes and such. They are aware of their complete dependence on us. To me, thinking to this degree about how they perceive my actions - both overt and subtle - is simply honoring their depth of undertanding.

I don't think that all is lost in the relationship if Mama walks out of the room, or even if she loses her temper sometimes. And it's all about what is said about this and what comes after. Those are the subtleties that make or break a bond IMO.

As an example, for those of you who may have been abused as children, do you remember just how subtle the signs could be to let you know what was coming? Do you remember the level of detection you were capable of? I remember the slightest, nearly imperceptible changes in my father's face telling me how that day would be.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*









Do you all ever think that maybe we overthink this stuff a bit much? I mean, really, my bond with my child isn't going to be severed, her sense of self worth eternally depleted, because I walk out of the room when she pushes the dryer button.

no, but I think that the "overthinking" can help change a difficult, stressful discipline situation into a fun, teaching moment.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
As an example, for those of you who may have been abused as children, do you remember just how subtle the signs could be to let you know what was coming?

I think you're right about some cases in which kids are unusually sensitive or vulnerable.

My dd is _exceptionally_ sensitive to any perceived rejection or abandoment, which probably has its roots in her first year as an institutionalized orphan.

I remember when she was first home with us and was largely preverbal. She was lying in papa's lap, calm and relaxed, and I walked over to hand papa the phone. I turned to walk away and she just flipped out - screamed like she was in pain, arched her back, flopped around... We were totally surprised. I turned back around and she immediately reached for me, wrapped herself around my neck, sobbing inconsolably 'mama...mama...mama...'

Sometimes in bed she'll stress out if I turn my head facing away from her on the pillow. She'll anxiously sit up and try to look in my face, saying 'mama? mama?'

So, I would never use physical separation as a teaching method or discipline with her. That would just be a dagger through her heart and I think would cause far more harm than good. Not to say that it would necessarily be a wrong technique with a child who wasn't dealing with attachment anxieties.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

I tend to "overthink" a lot of issues, not just GD







But, it has been through the critical examination of common practices that I've discovered so much of what I once believed was "true" was actually completely opposed to what my heart was telling me once I became a parent.

I'm not quite sure "overthink" I would have chosen, but I think I know what thismommy was getting at







For me, it's been the deeper examination and process that has brought me enormous growth as a person.

And sometimes not


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Well, I don't think there is anything wrong with thinking about these issues.

But some of the responses here seem a little over the top to me, yk? Most of the alternatives suggested don't feel practical to me. They are interesting to think about, and I am certainly incorporating them where I can.

But a lot of this discussion IMO doesn't take into account that a) I believe she is challenging intentionally, not simply because she is developmentally incapable of stopping her behaviour, and b) I'm a person too.

Distraction isn't going to work. It is not that simple. She's not going to just forget about the dryer button. She is pressing the button BECAUSE it's a no no. Or running down the street because it's a no no, harassing the dog because it's a no no, unzipping the screen on the bike trailer after I've zipped it up and my hands are full, dunking her doll in puddles, twiddling my other nipple while she nurses, putting her feet in the apple sauce... BECAUSE she knows these things are not cool with me.

I don't always have time to stop everything and go play with her. And I don't know if that would be a great idea, even if I could. It might reinforce the notion that doing something wrong = attention from mama.

I am a person here too. Sometimes I don't want to put down everything I've just picked up to rezip the bloody screen on the bike trailer, I don't want to chase her down the street or around the grocery store, I don't want to deal with her screaming in the cart coz I won't let her down, or buy her Smarties, I don't want to pick the wet doll up out of the puddle after I've said all patiently, "Don't dunk the baby in the puddle, babies are too little for puddles, she will be wet and you won't be able to play with her" and she's done it anyway, smirking. I don't want to put her sandals on a million times, try to find a way to carry her inside along with everything else in my arms because she has just gone limp noodle in protest coz she wants to stay outside.

I DON'T WANT TO. It is not fun for me. I do not feel full of patience and love in response to these behaviours. I don't want to drop everything in response to them, and I don't want to create a bubble for her where no conflict will ever arise. It is impossible.

Do I not get to say no? Do I not get to have my no respected?

I really, really hate this stage.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

It sounds like you and dd are pretty angry with each other







.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

No, it's not like that, at least I don't think it is.

I love my child, I thoroughly enjoy being a mama. I delight in her, and she is the main focus of my life, more important to me than anything else. I thank the Goddess regularly for her, I do not take this gift for granted. We love each other very much, and have lots of adventures and good times.

I know I sound hardcore here, but IRL most of my friends say that if anything I am too patient. These are not ppl who know about GD, not ppl who have kids, so of course it's to be taken with a grain of salt, but I'm saying it to explain that I am a loving mama, and our relationship overall is a positive, joyful one. She still nurses, we co-sleep, I am very emotionally available and attentive.

It's good, at least I think it's good.

I just don't like this stage. I do think she is testing, her behaviour is intentional. I don't see it as her being angry with me, I see it more as developmental, about her need to differentiate from me, to be her own person with her own agenda. And I think it's about her testing our relationship, my responses, what happens if she does xyz. I also think it's about her no longer blindly trusting me, she wants to see what happens for herself, yk?

Which I see as normal. I just don't know how to deal with it. I don't have tonnes of time or patience for it. I find it hard as a single mama, who just started going to school, to eek out time to just be, peacefully, yk? And I feel like what I do get, for example chilling in the pizza parlour while standing in line, or making supper being in my own head, is now intruded upon by having to chase after her, or by the constant buzzing of the dryer.

Does this make sense?

ETA - I mean to say that I can't find space for it. I can find space to go to school so I can do something I find meaningful and we won't always be broke her whole life. I can find space to buy and cook nutritious meals for both of us, I can chatter with her and make up funny games, I can take her on adventures in the bike trailer or to see our friends, I can nurse on demand, I can co-sleep even when that means she is literally laying across me half the night. I can do that. But this I feel like I cannot do. It's too much, these things come up constantly suddenly, at the most inconvenient times.

I need some breathing room, in the cracks, and this sudden change in her behaviour means I can't find any. And I don't like that.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

I know what you mean by "being in my own head." I think for me that is the hardest part of being a parent. There's no time for me to just be in my own head. None. My mind/ears/thoughts are always having to check on what she is doing, or about to do, or has just done. I used to be able to be in my head a little bit during nice stroller walks in the evening now and then... not any more. Now its constant response to whatever she sees ("Dog? Where's a dog? Oh, THERE'S a dog! You're right! Woof woof. Flower? Yes, there's a flower! Bird? Where? Oh I see it! Cheep cheep! Yes, a bird! Cat? There's no cat that I can see. Oh wow, I guess there IS a kitty cat. How did you spot that cat way over there??? Meow! You have good eyes! Yes, there's a kitty cat! Car! Choo choo! Ball!")

And I have a partner! I can't imagine what its like to be a single mom. I think I would go a little crazy.

If you need someone to smash that damn dryer button with a sledgehammer, call me. We have the same kind of dryer. Whoever thought it was important to know when the clothes were done by signaling louder than the neighborhood emergency sirens warning of imminent nuclear attack should be stuffed into a dryer himself and spun on hot.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
..twiddling my other nipple while she nurses... I can nurse on demand, I can co-sleep even when that means she is literally laying across me half the night. I can do that. But this I feel like I cannot do.

I'll be assailed for this, I'm pretty sure. But I'll just toss it out there anyway.

I've been struck by _how many_ mamas post about breastfeeding their older toddlers and how extremely irritated they are by it. Many have commented that they felt that it actually was causing them to feel a wedge between themselves and dc, instead of bringing them closer together, which is what they had hoped for with CLW. To a lesser extent I see this theme also referring to co-sleeping.

I think that you've hit the nail on the head here that the reality is that - as people - we have a limit to how much we are able to self sacrifice and give without starting to develop emotional exhaustion and resentment. Fortunately, that limit is pretty high when it comes to our kids.

I think that part of my inner resources that lets me smile and redirect when dd jumps on my laptop (again) or insists on playing in the car when I'd rather unload the groceries and get in out of the weather has to do with the fact that I'm not emotionally depleted by my other parenting activities.

I can't even imagine the constraints of nursing on demand (my dd is adopted). Just the aspect of the physical availability, and then the sense of being touched out or even violated in cases where dd is causing pain and discomfort... Tough gig! Honestly, I would not want to have that face that challenge in my efforts to keep our relationship kind, open and mutually respectful. When dd is irritable and demanding because she is hungry or looking for a treat, I'm glad that negative energy isn't directed at me. And I'm glad that I'm not placed in the situation of either holding out on her because it's a difficult time or place (maybe just emotionally), or else pushing down my bitterness and resentment and yielding to her demand. kwim?

I'm not at all trying to minimize the benefits - emotional and physical - of breastfeeding. But _everything_ has the potential of being misapplied or overused. When reading these threads by angry, exhausted mamas, who complain of feeling manhandled and exploited by their toddlers nursing demands, I honestly have thought over and over that the continued nursing was _hurting_ the relationship instead of strengthening it.

I'm not sure if this thought process even applies in your case, there really isn't enough background to tell exactly why you're feeling so drawn out with what are fairly typical toddler behaviors. I'm just musing out loud and seeing if this opens any doors. If I'm totally off base then, well, it won't be the first time. You can just say so and move on to other topics.


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## 3_opihi (Jan 10, 2003)

Ok, I haven't read all the responses here, but I wanted to say that my three year old does the same thing. I don't think you are doing anything wrong, but if the wording makes you feel "oogy" -try not making it an IF thing. Make it like a choice, yk?

Here's an example of how it would go with my son.

Mom: Please stop pressing the dryer button, it might brake if you do that.
DS: I will press the dryer button
Mom: You can stop pressing the dryer button, or you can go sit on the couch (or find whatever else to do).
DS: presses button
Mom: Ok, I see that you would like to go sit on the couch. ---at this point I would probably give him something to do while he was on the couch, like read a book or something.

I know its a forced choice, and some ppl don't agree with that....but I think it works well in a lot of situations. In my OP its the whole "IF you do this....x will happen"...that makes things sound threatening.

I think a better example would be with the bunny.

Mom: Ds, you can be gentle with the bunny, or I can help you put him away so he will be safe.
Ds: I will pinch the bunny.
Mom: Ok, let's put him away together.

Like I have reiterated above, it's totally a forced choice, some ppl make think that sucks, but you know what my son usually knows what clear consequences he will have, and he usually goes along with whatever choices I give him. Like with the bunny, usually he would say --"ok, me put bunny away" and we would put the bunny away.

Just my .02 cents. I wish that I could explain what I'm trying to say in a more articulate way, cuz I don't think I'm really putting it out there in the best way....maybe the examples aren't the best, I dunno.... I'm not a super GD mom or anything, so take what I say with a grain of salt,lol. I think you are doing a great job, btw.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie*
I know what you mean by "being in my own head." I think for me that is the hardest part of being a parent. There's no time for me to just be in my own head. None. My mind/ears/thoughts are always having to check on what she is doing, or about to do, or has just done. I used to be able to be in my head a little bit during nice stroller walks in the evening now and then... not any more. Now its constant response to whatever she sees ("Dog? Where's a dog? Oh, THERE'S a dog! You're right! Woof woof. Flower? Yes, there's a flower! Bird? Where? Oh I see it! Cheep cheep! Yes, a bird! Cat? There's no cat that I can see. Oh wow, I guess there IS a kitty cat. How did you spot that cat way over there??? Meow! You have good eyes! Yes, there's a kitty cat! Car! Choo choo! Ball!")

Yeah, I totally know what you mean. It's like at this age everything gets invaded, because they are talking all the time! People warned me about this, now that I think about it. It's fun, but it's not fun, kwim?

Quote:

If you need someone to smash that damn dryer button with a sledgehammer, call me. We have the same kind of dryer. Whoever thought it was important to know when the clothes were done by signaling louder than the neighborhood emergency sirens warning of imminent nuclear attack should be stuffed into a dryer himself and spun on hot.
ITA!







I could put tape over it I guess, but she actually hasn't touched it in a few days now. There is no way to put up a gate as it's in the kitchen, and I can't gate the kitchen either because the entry way is really wide.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed*

I've been struck by _how many_ mamas post about breastfeeding their older toddlers and how extremely irritated they are by it. Many have commented that they felt that it actually was causing them to feel a wedge between themselves and dc, instead of bringing them closer together, which is what they had hoped for with CLW. To a lesser extent I see this theme also referring to co-sleeping.

I think that you've hit the nail on the head here that the reality is that - as people - we have a limit to how much we are able to self sacrifice and give without starting to develop emotional exhaustion and resentment. Fortunately, that limit is pretty high when it comes to our kids.


I see what you are saying, but truly for us the nursing has been really, really good. We went thru a big nipple twiddling stage when she was about 16 mos, but nothing since then until the last week or so. And like the bunny, I maintain that it's not about the nipple twiddling, it's about testing, doing something she knows I don't want her to do.

It's true I would have more space if we didn't co-sleep, that is provided she slept thru the night on her own, which I can't imagine, really. She has her own bed, but no interest in sleeping in it at night. And really I don't want to give up the things that foster our attachment, particularly at this time.

I just want the little bugger to listen to me!

ITA with your thoughts about needing to limit self-sacrifice. This is why this current stage feels so hard for me. Part of the difficulty is we have had a schedule change, and I now have only 8 hours once every two weeks where I am not either parenting or in school. And I don't see a way to change this.

I think it's really helpful for me to just vent about it and be heard. I had a good cry after I posted earlier, and when she woke up from her nap I felt full of love and patience, where two hours earlier I was just hoping she would fall asleep so I could have a break.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3_opihi*
haven't read all the responses here, but I wanted to say that my three year old does the same thing. I don't think you are doing anything wrong, but if the wording makes you feel "oogy" -try not making it an IF thing. Make it like a choice, yk?

Here's an example of how it would go with my son.

Mom: Please stop pressing the dryer button, it might brake if you do that.
DS: I will press the dryer button
Mom: You can stop pressing the dryer button, or you can go sit on the couch (or find whatever else to do).
DS: presses button
Mom: Ok, I see that you would like to go sit on the couch. ---at this point I would probably give him something to do while he was on the couch, like read a book or something.

I know its a forced choice, and some ppl don't agree with that....but I think it works well in a lot of situations. In my OP its the whole "IF you do this....x will happen"...that makes things sound threatening.

I think a better example would be with the bunny.

Mom: Ds, you can be gentle with the bunny, or I can help you put him away so he will be safe.
Ds: I will pinch the bunny.
Mom: Ok, let's put him away together.

This is great. I could totally do this. I've already moved from "if you, I will" to "if you, then you will have to," but this is even better.

Maybe the answer is that this is the area in which I will compromise my ideals somewhat. I won't give up nursing, co-sleeping, cooking nutritious (and somewhat time consuming) food, I'm not quitting school, I'm not putting her in full time daycare so I can have time to myself after school. These are things that take energy to do, but I don't want to change them.

I always thought I would not do any sort of time out with my child. I think what will work for me is to use the tools in this thread wherever I'm able, and I've already noticed areas where I actually could distract, ignore, play with her, talk about it later, whatever, something non-punitive. And then maybe sometimes, when I'm cooking supper and I've had a busy day and I don't have the energy or time, I'll say, "Do you want to stop pressing the button, or do you want to sit on sofa?" And see how that goes.

Thanks for all the help with this mamas. I have really been struggling here, and this discussion is really really helpful to me.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Well, the nipple twiddling is so common in nurslings of this age that I believe it is almost instinctual.

thismama, I can so relate to your feeling drained and not wanting to deal with certain behaviours. I do have a partner, and yet I still feel this way sometimes. And toddlers are a tough age (wait until 3, that is even tougher) in terms of how they play on your emotional energies. Babies just seem to require us to get less sleep and use more physical resources, but toddlers and older children need emotional resources, and those are tough for many of us to dole out, as many of us have not dealt with all our own issues, kwim?

Which leads me to saying that it's okay for you to feel this way, but I don't think you should use those feelings as a justification for a certain discipline technique. It's YOUR issue, kwim? And actually, you might find that the path to more patience and greater happiness with your parental approach lies not in how you deal with your DD, but how you deal with yourself. In this light, I would totally recommend Becky Bailey's book "Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline". It's a misleading title, I think, because really it's about what WE bring to parenting and how we can make changes to ourself that make parenting so much easier.

And let's face it, it's probably easier to change ourselves than to try to go against the nature of the child. Plus, the benefits extend to other relationships in our life as well...

As for your DD "testing", well....I think you are on the right track, and you may think that what I'm about to say is too small a distinction, but I still sense an "adversarial" tone to your attitude about what your DD is doing. You state that you understand it's developmental and about her individualizing her sense of self, and yet you repeatedly stress the fact that she's doing these things "because she knows they are no-no's". Not only does this place an adversarial tone on the behaviours, but I think if you really thought about it, the distinction of being "no-no's" lies in your own perception. For example: does your DD like to play with toys? Does she enjoy repeating the same maneouver with toy, like pushing a button to make a sound or an object pop up? Does she repeat that again and again? And yet, that isn't a no-no. Watch her play - I'll bet you see the same exuberance for freedom, the same stubborn determinedness, the same emotions...but because they are taking place in the context of "acceptable" situations that don't impact what you are doing at the moment, you don't see them the same way. But turn that into pushing a dryer button over and over again or running out into the street...and suddenly you see it differently. What we perceive is very much "in the eye of the beholder". While I don't hear you directly ascribing sinister motives to your DD's behaviours, I do hear an interpretation of her behaviours that you are using to justify punitive/consequence driven parenting, when I think the distinction is artificial. Does that make sense?

You said that you think responding by playing with her might be reinforcing the behaviours, and yet there is evidence that such a behaviouralist view of children is flat out wrong from a biological and psychological perspective. Yet it's hard to get past behaviouralism because we, as a society, have swallowed that so deeply. Anyways, I urge you to read Alfie Kohn's Unconditional Parenting, as he addresses the history behind behaviourism and how much evidence there is that such interpretations are very misguided.

oh, and props to you for going to school and doin' the single parenting thing. i have much respect for mamas in your shoes.


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

I can definitely empathize with not wanting to constantly stop what you're doing and redirect, etc. But that's really where I found active teaching to be a benefit. *At first* you're reaching over and correcting them every 30 seconds, but once they get it, they get it. At least that was my experience. I think the active teaching "sticks" better than consequences, punitive or otherwise.

I guess I would ask, what are you trying to teach her? Are you trying to teach that there is a consequence to doing something, or are you trying to teach her not to do it? They both might stop the behavior, but I think it's a very different message.

Anyway, I know it can be frustrating. Good luck.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
but toddlers and older children need emotional resources, and those are tough for many of us to dole out, as many of us have not dealt with all our own issues, kwim?

Yes, very true. And I have not dealt with all of my own issues, that is true. But I've been doing my personal work in a conscious way for years, and still I can't figure this out quickly enough to avoid doing the "sit on sofa" thing.

Quote:

Which leads me to saying that it's okay for you to feel this way, but I don't think you should use those feelings as a justification for a certain discipline technique. It's YOUR issue, kwim?
Well, it may be my issue, but I am a person in this relationship, and I am responsible to keep my child safe, keep her from harming others, and keep myself sane. I have been thinking about and considering this issue, and still I can't come up with anything better than what I already have.

Quote:

And actually, you might find that the path to more patience and greater happiness with your parental approach lies not in how you deal with your DD, but how you deal with yourself.
Can you expand?

Quote:

In this light, I would totally recommend Becky Bailey's book "Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline". It's a misleading title, I think, because really it's about what WE bring to parenting and how we can make changes to ourself that make parenting so much easier.
I've heard that title. I'll check it out, along with Unconditional Parenting, which I've read before but when my daughter was much younger and everything was more harmonious.

Quote:

As for your DD "testing", well....I think you are on the right track, and you may think that what I'm about to say is too small a distinction, but I still sense an "adversarial" tone to your attitude about what your DD is doing. You state that you understand it's developmental and about her individualizing her sense of self, and yet you repeatedly stress the fact that she's doing these things "because she knows they are no-no's". Not only does this place an adversarial tone on the behaviours, but I think if you really thought about it, the distinction of being "no-no's" lies in your own perception. For example: does your DD like to play with toys? Does she enjoy repeating the same maneouver with toy, like pushing a button to make a sound or an object pop up? Does she repeat that again and again? And yet, that isn't a no-no. Watch her play - I'll bet you see the same exuberance for freedom, the same stubborn determinedness, the same emotions...but because they are taking place in the context of "acceptable" situations that don't impact what you are doing at the moment, you don't see them the same way. But turn that into pushing a dryer button over and over again or running out into the street...and suddenly you see it differently. What we perceive is very much "in the eye of the beholder". While I don't hear you directly ascribing sinister motives to your DD's behaviours, I do hear an interpretation of her behaviours that you are using to justify punitive/consequence driven parenting, when I think the distinction is artificial. Does that make sense?
Well yes, it makes some sense, I think. There are ways for her to behave and express her toddler curiousity and exhuberance that are acceptable, and others that are not acceptable. Safety and sanity are the dividing lines, IMO.

I don't think I am ascribing "sinister motives" when I say she really latches on to doing things that are no-no's. I think it is factual to state that when she figures out something is not cool with me, she makes a more pointed effort to do that thing. Which is not sinister, in fact I stated that I believe it is normal. But it is adversarial, and I don't know how to get out of/avoid creating that dynamic to some degree.

I am not using my interpretation of her behaviour as adversarial to justify punitive/consequence driven parenting. The argument I am using to justify it is that I don't know of a better way that is practical, effective, and does not take so much effort that I feel resentful.

What I find is that when I don't feel like I have tools to stop her from behaving in ways that are dangerous or harmful to others, I tend to feel helpless and out of control, and I find I lose my temper easily. Which is not where I want to be in my parenting dynamic with my child. From my perspective, gently explaining, and then picking her up and putting her on the sofa is a far better option.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna*

I guess I would ask, what are you trying to teach her? Are you trying to teach that there is a consequence to doing something, or are you trying to teach her not to do it? They both might stop the behavior, but I think it's a very different message.

Yeah, it can be a very different message, and obviously I am trying to teach the former. It used to be that an explanation would accomplish that. But now I find she doesn't care, and/or the consequences of whatever she is doing would obviously be too great to allow her to find out for herself.

So again, I am left not knowing what to do to keep her safe, keep others safe, and keep some peace for myself. And the sofa thing is attractive because it accomplishes those goals. Kwim?


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

I'm not picking on you, really, but have you tried the repetitive active teaching (moving the hand away while saying "please don't") and it didn't work? I've just never had a situation where repetitive active teaching didn't work *eventually* if I did it consistently. I would expect it to be at least as effective as punishment. But of course I don't know your dd or your specific situation. And I do understand the frustration, especially at that age...


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

No, it's okay, I don't feel like you're picking on me. I could have posted this on any message board, but I know the GD hardcores are here and y'all will give it to me straight. I do feel a little slow for not getting it.

I have not tried repetitive active teaching. I have tried saying "Please don't do that because xyz." What's repetitive active teaching? What do you do? Is that it, just keep moving the hand away while saying please don't? Can you give me the lowdown on it? Thanks.


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Active teaching is physical redirection in conjunction with verbal request/instruction. This is really the only form of formal discipline I've ever used with my kids, starting when they were about 5 months old (or thereabouts--whenever they started reaching for stuff). Explain what you want her to do or not do (e.g. "please don't push the dryer button, because the dryer could break, and we need it to dry our clothes"). Then, when she reaches for it, pull her hand back while calmly saying "please don't push the dryer button." And do this consistently every time she reaches for it--the trick is to be consistent and to stay calm (don't get visibly frustrated even if you're doing this every 10 seconds). Eventually it will take. And eventually it won't be necessary anymore and a verbal request and explanation will be enough.

At least that's how it's worked for us. It might not work for everyone, but I really would recommend at least trying it as an alternative to punishment. Some gd people don't like it because it's thwarting a child's will, but sometimes you *have* to thwart their will when they're that little, you know?

There is a book about using this kind of active teaching from birth, and how it's so much better than punishment, but I don't remember the title. I'll try to look it up tomorrow.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Huh. Well I'm going to try that. Thanks.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

blessed, sorry to be OT to the OP







but...just wanted to comment on your previous post:

Quote:

I've been struck by how many mamas post about breastfeeding their older toddlers and how extremely irritated they are by it. Many have commented that they felt that it actually was causing them to feel a wedge between themselves and dc, instead of bringing them closer together, which is what they had hoped for with CLW. To a lesser extent I see this theme also referring to co-sleeping.
Since as you've mentioned you've not ever breastfed a toddler, I can see how reading threads about the challenges of nursing an older child can be disconcerting and construed by someone not comfortable w/or in the relationship as "violating." I would venture to guess that in many instances, a good number of posters who are reaching out for help don't have many other venues to vent their frustrations about CLW...but, for virtually every mother I know IRL, the joys and tremendous importance of CLW and nursing an older child FAR outweigh the negatives.

I would be devasted for anyone to come away from MDC thinking that most mothers CLWing are "irritated" by it or that if you chose to go this route, all you've got to look forward to is being "manhandled and exploited." Those are fairly dramatic terms. Yes, some days toddlers nursing can be irritating at times. Heck, toddlers can be irritating at times, nursing or not









It's always easy to target breastfeeding as the cause of many ills, and in many cases, it's the last thing a nursing mother wants to hear.

Okee dokee, off my soap box for the night







:

Thanks for allowing me to go OT everyone


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
I am not using my interpretation of her behaviour as adversarial to justify punitive/consequence driven parenting. The argument I am using to justify it is that I don't know of a better way that is practical, effective, and does not take so much effort that I feel resentful...What I find is that when I don't feel like I have tools to stop her from behaving in ways that are dangerous or harmful to others, I tend to feel helpless and out of control, and I find I lose my temper easily....

This is SO important what you've written here. I really think it sums up parenting to a Tee. All of us know what it's like to get to that place where your sanity and patience are in danger of being blown. We all know what it's like to get resentful, etc. And you are EXACTLY right that these feelings occur when we lack the tools to effectively deal with thing in a way that is consistent with our parenting goals.

A famous horse trainer once said "Violence begins where knowledge ends". He was referring to training methods that involve causing the horse pain - he argued there was always a non-violent way to achieve one's training goals, by working within the nature of the horse, and that people who claimed harsh methods were the "only way" were simply running up against the wall of their own ignorance, as if the extent of their knowledge defined what was possible and what wasn't. As a parent, I know how it feels to be in that place where you run out of ideas. I know that feeling of wanting and needing to "put a stop to this" and when I'm left with no ideas I resort to punitive and coercive methods. What I have done is simply denied myself that as a possibility. It's like deciding to become a vegetarian - you don't resort to a hamburger every time you run out of recipe ideas.

You can find the solutions, you really can. So many times I've been "stuck" in a situation and being "this close" to making a threat or imposing a consequence...and I've said to myself "no, that's not an option" and eventually I figure it out. But so long as you leave timeouts etc as an option (even if, for now, it's a rarely used one) you will find that when you get into that place of not knowing what to do, you'll resort to the timeout. And then when those start to lose their effectiveness, you'll find yourself trying to up the ante again....the solution is to search further for an answer and then the best part is you put more tools in your toolbox until you're at the stage I'm at where I feel I can handle pretty much anything DD throws at me these days because I have a good toolkit (and that will change about every six months or so, lol).

So, for your dryer example, here are the solutions I would present to myself. 1) block off access. you've already said that's impossible due to dryer location. 2) let DD go crazy with the button and not react positively or negatively, until she has it out of her system. if I felt this really would result in a broken dryer, I would not do this. otherwise, it really is the fastest resolution. 3) unplug the dryer whenever it's not in use so that when she pushes the button, nothing happens. 4) brace myself for a couple weeks of vigilance and every time I see her getting near the dryer, distract her with something else (IME, this doesn't work too well. toddlers are incredibly determined kids), 5) do as the previous poster said and gently and patiently remind her not to push the button every time she tries to do it. comfort the child and empathize with her as she naturally expresses frustration...

So there you have 5 off the top of my head, none of which involve punishment or consequences. HTH!


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## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

*


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Well yeah, and CLW doesn't work for some mamas, for sure. But OTOH riotkrrn, you or I can hear that advice just about anywhere, and I don't know about you but for me that is usually the first thing ppl suggest when I'm struggling with my kid. The whole, "Well she is spoiled, for one thing she thinks she can just grab you and expect to nurse whenever she wants. What do you expect?"

I know blessed meant well, and yeah it's a good thing to throw out there, but for us nursing is really important and positive. Even when I complain about nipple twiddling, that issue pales in comparison to how positive nursing has been for us. Weaning over this week's twiddling would kind of be throwing out the babe with the bathwater, kwim?

I love nursing my daughter, and expect to CLW at this point. If I were to wean her I know all that would happen is that we would both experience a huge loss, and a really special part of our bond would be cut off before its time.


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## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

*


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

There's no single right way or right answer for every mama and every child.

I think I'm just putting out there that this hold true for CLW as well. Sometimes, for some families weaning is the right answer. If that's not the case for you and your dd, that's fine.

CLW is very amply and very well supported on MDC. I just wanted to give a voice to some families who are secretly feeling that they might benefit from other strategies, who might not be as lunkheaded as I am in terms of always speaking their minds.







I wasn't sure if maybe you fell into that category; it looks like that's not the case.

I think that's all that riotkrrn is saying also.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
"Violence begins where knowledge ends".

Yup, that is very true for me. When I don't know what to do, I get angry. I yelled at her one day about two weeks ago over her not listening about something important, and locked myself in the bathroom to calm down. It was a bad scene, I made her cry, and I felt really really bad about it. And several other times I have felt angry like that, altho I've been able to manage it better.

I've been really excited about the sofa thing coz by doing that at least I have something, and I have been able to avoid escalating to that angry place. But yeah, it's far from ideal.

Quote:

What I have done is simply denied myself that as a possibility. It's like deciding to become a vegetarian - you don't resort to a hamburger every time you run out of recipe ideas.
Huh. Yeah, I can see doing this.

I was also thinking about it last night and this morning, and I'm noticing that altho I denied it yesterday, it is true that many of the things she does *are* simply about miscommunication, or about her not having the same perception as I do, and not necessarily about "testing" or deliberately doing something because I've said no. And then I am misinterpreting, and believing she is doing something with intent, or believing just one verbal "no" from me should stop the behaviour, and I see her as "testing" me when that doesn't work. Which is unrealistic.

For example, yesterday I zipped up the bike trailer, grabbed up all our stuff, turned around and there she was unzipping it. I took that personally and felt rather irritated by it, but reflecting, she really enjoys unzipping the bike trailer and had no way of knowing that wasn't the time to do it as far as I was concerned.

Quote:

You can find the solutions, you really can.
Thanks. Today I am actually believing that. We'll see.









Quote:

So, for your dryer example, here are the solutions I would present to myself. 1) block off access. you've already said that's impossible due to dryer location. 2) let DD go crazy with the button and not react positively or negatively, until she has it out of her system. if I felt this really would result in a broken dryer, I would not do this. otherwise, it really is the fastest resolution. 3) unplug the dryer whenever it's not in use so that when she pushes the button, nothing happens. 4) brace myself for a couple weeks of vigilance and every time I see her getting near the dryer, distract her with something else (IME, this doesn't work too well. toddlers are incredibly determined kids), 5) do as the previous poster said and gently and patiently remind her not to push the button every time she tries to do it. comfort the child and empathize with her as she naturally expresses frustration...

So there you have 5 off the top of my head, none of which involve punishment or consequences.
That is really really good. I am so bad at this that I might need to write those down and put them on the fridge, and follow the sequence for each individual thing in my head.

I've been really resisting the alternatives suggested because the picture I've had in my head is that I will have to drop everything every time she is doing something I don't want her to do. Which felt/feels overwhelming. But I can see reminding myself to check whether I am ascribing motives that are not there. And I can go through the checklist.

And I can totally see myself doing as Brigianna suggested, I can't remember what it's called this minute, active redirecting? I can see myself going over and saying "Please don't chase the dog" and moving her away, and going back again when she does it again. And if I'm really in a pinch and can't do that, I can put the dog in my roomie's bedroom for awhile, she likes to sleep on the bed in there. Before I was imagining locking the dog in the bedroom for long periods and I was resistant to that, but I am fine with putting her away for short periods where my attention really does need to be diverted. Or locking the bunny away, or taping over the freaking dryer, or whatever.

I think a lot of it is it's just going to take more planning. Which isn't hard, but it's a readjustment in my head. Like when we go outside to the car the new thing the past few days is she tries to take off running down the street, which drives me nuts. But maybe I just need to accept that this is going to happen, not personalize it as her creating conflict with me but recognize that she doesn't have impulse control and likes to run down the street. Then I will just know I have to hold her hand, so I'll leave a hand free to do that.

Quote:

HTH!








Um yeah, you did. Thanks a lot.









I'm not sure yet, but I am feeling really relieved this morning reading this discussion. Today I have the whole day with her again, and I'm just going to focus on reframing this whole thing in my head, and responding with patience and a desire to seek resolution of whatever the issue is, not getting offended about the power struggle that I imagine she is trying to initiate.

Whew.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Yeah, I hear you riotkrrn and blessed. I don't think there is anything wrong with throwing out the possibility for sure, and I agree that the vibe at MDC can be a little too much with the "preserve the nursing relationship at all costs."

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riotkrrn*
I'm lucky that I have friends and family around that were extremely supportive of my extended nursing, so I really didn't run into the "Haven't you weaned her yet?" crap IRL. I guess I'd like to see more of a balance re. toddler weaning, something in between the "Ew, you're STILL nursing? No wonder your kid's manipulating you!" that you can expect from other discussion boards, and the preserve-the-nursing-relationship-at-any-cost that I feel like I see too much of at MDC. I fully admit that I am probably more sensitive to the latter, and that it's my issue.









Well I'm toward the other end of that, more sensitive to the "haven't you weaned her yet" because altho I do have friends who are pro-CLW, I also have a few vocal ones who are not. My roomie is all, "Well you can't keep nursing once she is three!" and my other friend who we spend a lot of time with is big into the "Nursing toddlers on demand just encourages them to be controlling and manipulative." Neither have children or any idea what they are talking about, but sometimes it gets to me.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Perhaps I should have sat on my hands last night instead of posting, but I happened to "know" thismama from around the board, and knew that the original suggestion wasn't going to resonate. My apologies. I hope that I didn't come across as dismissing "out of hand." I actually took a good amount of time trying to avoid the appearance of that









We can expect to see a lot of "preserve the nursing relationship" around MDC since MDC and MM are strong advocates of the rights and needs of the child. That doesn't exclude the support of the mother and her needs, of course. I wanted to point out that pointing the cause to the breastfeeding relationship, IMO, wasn't going to support the OP. It can be exhausting for many of us to hear just wean already from those who aren't intricately involved in the breastfeeding relationship.

Ok, I completely apologize for hogging thismama's thread now.

I imagine that a CLW and discipline thread might be very illuminating and informative here in GD if anyone would like to start one









(sorry if this is jumbled...my little ones are making me breakfast







)


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## Heffernhyphen (May 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
My roomie is all, "Well you can't keep nursing once she is three!" and my other friend who we spend a lot of time with is big into the "Nursing toddlers on demand just encourages them to be controlling and manipulative." Neither have children or any idea what they are talking about, but sometimes it gets to me.

Oh, you must be my sister-in-law's roomie! She gives me this kind of helpful advice all the time . . . even though she's never had a kid either. Do they get their theories from watching TV or what?

My advice to you is to consider yourself the expert on the topic of parenting, especially parenting your own dc, and seize the opportunity to educate them. Maybe they've never known of anyone to nurse a three-year-old; you get to be the one to teach them not only _that_ it's done, buy _why_ it should be. Someday they may have a child of their own and thank you.

As for why and when to wean, I agree with the WHO in their advice to nurse, I believe I've got this correctly: "For at least the first two years of life and for as long thereafter as _both mother and child find desirable_." I have no desire to wean my almost-three-year-old yet (despite his father's wishes), but I am SO over the damn twiddling! Oy vey. He can nurse till he's 12, but if he doesn't stop trying to remove the other nipple, I may start duct taping his hands behind his back.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Just to address the nipple twiddling real quick- have all of you who get really irritated by it tried to find other things for dc to do with their hands?
I get somewhat annoyed with the twiddling, but I always feel bad telling ds to stop twiddling, then I can see that he's trying very hard to not twiddle, but can't find anything else to do with his hands. I know he's trying, but he always ends up twiddling again, and I don't feel right putting that kind of pressure on him to stop, without giving him an alternative. It seems like a lot to expect! I'm pretty sure that if I had a nursing necklace or something that it would help a lot.
Anyways, just wondering if that's helped anyone. If so, I really need to get a necklace. lol


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

When my dd bottle nurses she _has_ to have a pillow next to her so that she can twiddle with the pillow case. I'm sure she's never breast fed a day in her life







since she was abandoned at birth. It really is a biological act to twiddle, isn't it?


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## Heffernhyphen (May 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy*
. . . .have all of you who get really irritated by it tried to find other things for dc to do with their hands?

That's a great idea. I've allowed ds to twiddle for almost 3 years now because I read a theory that it may increase milk production and I'm ALL about getting more calories into my skinny little boy. (Do you guys think this has any merit?)

Some days, though, I just have to swat his hand away because I'm just too sensitive for it. I don't have nursing beads, but I'll find something to put in his little hand next time. Thanks for the idea.

Susan

(Boy, we've really strayed from the op, huh?)


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
When I don't know what to do, I get angry. I yelled at her one day about two weeks ago over her not listening about something important, and locked myself in the bathroom to calm down. It was a bad scene, I made her cry, and I felt really really bad about it.

I have done this too. I know how it feels.









Quote:

I've been really excited about the sofa thing coz by doing that at least I have something, and I have been able to avoid escalating to that angry place.
I'd say that "in the moment" it IS better than getting to our "angry place". But the biggest problem with these techniques is that the kids definitely will, at some point, challenge that solution and force you to "up the ante" and this is when things start to spiral out of control.

Quote:

I am so bad at this that I might need to write those down and put them on the fridge, and follow the sequence for each individual thing in my head.
Also, don't be afraid to experiment with other ideas. I've tried some that failed, and often I have inadvertently stumbled upon a solution. Make a mental note of what really interests your DD, see what pushes her buttons versus engages her mind/interest. It's like any skill - you get better with practice!

Quote:

I've been really resisting the alternatives suggested because the picture I've had in my head is that I will have to drop everything every time she is doing something I don't want her to do. Which felt/feels overwhelming.
You may have to, for a little while, but the rewards will be SO worth it. Because if you are patient and consistent you'll find it gets easier and easier. Think about life with Teenagers (eek!) and remind yourself that what you are doing now is going to pay off in spades then. When your friends' rebellious teens are dropped off back home in a police car, you'll be glad you invested the time to create a non-adversarial relationship!









Quote:

I think a lot of it is it's just going to take more planning. Which isn't hard, but it's a readjustment in my head.
Exactly! But like any such change, it will become alot more natural with practice.

Quote:

Today I have the whole day with her again, and I'm just going to focus on reframing this whole thing in my head...
Take each day one at a time, and if you have a bad day (which we ALL do) just be easy on yourself, remind yourself that you are trying, that nobody is perfect, and resolve to make the next day a Better Day.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

I also often feel like parenting is winging it almost all the time. Because it's hard to know what he's thinking, feeling, or wanting with his limited vocabulary.

I rehearse in my head, prepare, think about, ponder, etc..., and still in each moment I'm trying to find some happy solution. (I can't imagine how hard it would be if I _didn't_ think about it ahead...)

I see it as an investment in helping DS see things as conversations and negotiations where I take him for real. Soon he will be able to generate alternate solutions and we will talk things out. At this age, I'm playing both sides - without _really_ knowing just what is going on in his head everytime.

Someday, he will be able to speak for his thougts and feelings without fail. Until then, I'm showing him with all our interactions that we will find ways to both be happy together.


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

Just read through the thread and some really good points and ideas were brought up and given. I also remember this stage and how frustrating it can be - it took my very awesome GP to question me before I figured it all out - the knowing mama doesn't want me to do it but not having the impulse control to stop it and mama mistaking it for "pushing buttons"







. Long story short for us it was folded laundry. I would fold it and not put it away right away. DS would throw it around the room or just knock the basket upside down. I would remind him we don't mess with the clean laundry. He would say OK. Next day same thing. This time I would ask him what I said about laundry. he would repeat "we don't throw clothes, dump basket out." Right. Next day again and on and on. I was venting to my GP that DS doesn't listen and he asked me straight faced who in that particular scenario wasn't listening and then explained age appropriate expectations as far as impulse control was concerned. I wasn't listening to DS when he was clearly saying he couldn't do what I expected (stay away from laundry) even though he knew and could iterate he should. So folded laundry was never near him again,







. And now he doesn't touch folded laundry waiting to be put away even though there were no consequences for dumping it out - he just outgrew it. Your DD will outgrow her dryer button pushing and rough with the animals behaviour. In the mean time she may just need more time in with you to keep those things at bay.

I also agree that although in the beginning taking more time and talking through and redirecting seems overwhelming but in the long run you gain so much time and sanity. Once I changed the way I was seeing DS' bevaviours and then how I react to behaviours I find annoying, potentially unsafe etc life really balanced out and became less draining.

I love and would like to seond what oceanbaby wrote a few pages back:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
Yeah, but the time out scenario, however it is worded, is a short term fix. She's getting older, and bigger, and pretty soon the "you'll have to go sit on the couch" may be met with "NO! You can't make me!" as she runs from you. Then what? Are you going to chase her through the house to make her sit on the couch? Are you going to pry her hand off the button and carry a kicking flailing 3yo onto the couch? I say it's better to take the time now to lay the foundation for how you two interact.

It's easy and fast right now but she is only going to get older and harder to keep in a time out and in the above possible scenario nobody's diginity is left in tact.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

oceanbaby's quote above made me think that the other issue with "going to the sofa" is that in a little while you will find your DD saying to YOU "mama, you need to go to the sofa!" or telling her little brother/sister "If you don't stop that you are going to the sofa!". And they will use your exact tone and cadence so that you think it's your voice coming out of her mouth, lol.

There's nothing like seeing your kids responding to what you've modelled to stress the importance of how you deal with conflicts/issues.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Okay so for the most part today was really really good, and my new strategies worked well for us. For example, she overheard me talking about strategies, and mentioning "harassing the dog." So she says, "I'm harassing the dog," and starts following the dog. I stopped her physically and said, "Please don't chase Luna, she doesn't like it." I was feeling really patient. So she kind of gets this gleam in her eye and keeps chasing her. I did the same thing again, still patient, truly. And you know what, she stopped chasing the freaking dog! Hallelujah. She walked over to the sofa next to the dog and sat very respectfully next to her. Yay!!

But here's a scenario: this afternoon we went to the beach. We had a great time, and walked up the hill toward the car to go home. Dd turns around and starts walking back to the beach, back down the hill. I called her, tried to encourage her to come, told her we were going now, talked about fun things we would be doing when we go home. And she turned and ran all the way down the hill to the beach.

ANNOYING!!! I am pretty lazy, and climbing the hill once at the end of a long day was enough for me, thanks. I could have pre-empted it by holding her hand, but I don't always anticipate these scenarios, and also I can imagine the hand-holding resulting in a meltdown, as she was all about climbing the hill herself and finding rocks.

So what do I do here?

Or, later, she says, "Mama, I dumped your cashews out of the bag." (there were only about 8 or 10) I said, "Oh no, my cashews! Can you clean them up?" She says, "No." She knows how to clean up much bigger projects than that, because later my roomie bribed her to clean up her blocks under promise of ice cream.

Also with, "Mama, I spilled the juice." All over the coffee table and the carpet. Which she knows not to do. I could give her less juice so it doesn't matter, but that seems like going backward developmentally to me. Maybe I just need to know that this is a new stage, and less juice equals less stress. ETA - I didn't actually see the juice spillage, but my distinct impression was it was not an accident. When she told me, she sort of announced it. Accidental juice spillage is frequent around here and not something I stress about.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

I think all of those things you just brought up are normal developmental things for a 2.5 year old. They are just testing out their independence. It sucks, but the beach/hill I would have walked down, taken her hand and asked her how I could make it easier for her to be ready to leave the beach. We could skip to the car, sing a song, tell a story, etc etc. (I think I actually got that idea from Piglet a bit ago on the GD forum).

The cashews and the juice, I would simply say "oh no, lets clean this up" and help her clean it up. I think she is a bit young still to be able to grasp that she has to do it entirely on her own... but she can help. With the cashews I would make it a game "lets count the cashews as you put them back in the bowl" or something. With the juice I would take her hand, help her get a towel and let her wipe it up. If you want it to do it on her own you will probably have to be right beside her waiting for her to do it, lol.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:

Or, later, she says, "Mama, I dumped your cashews out of the bag." (there were only about 8 or 10) I said, "Oh no, my cashews! Can you clean them up?" She says, "No."
Well, you did ask a yes or no question







She had bigger fish to fry, mama









Quote:

Also with, "Mama, I spilled the juice." All over the coffee table and the carpet. Which she knows not to do. I could give her less juice so it doesn't matter, but that seems like going backward developmentally to me. Maybe I just need to know that this is a new stage, and less juice equals less stress.
I wouldn't worry about going backward developmentally at all...less juice=less stress. It's an easy trap to get stuck in the mindset of "well, I know she _can_ do it...so she _should_ do it." There are so many times when little ones suddenly revert developmentally when gaining new skills. Totally normal









Is she, by chance, six weeks on either side of her half birthday? I think I remember she is??


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Yeah, the co-clean-up seems fair and doable.

You know, reading these things I've written I know they are normal developmentally, but I definitely feel some resentment in response to them. I begin to feel like a servant when in addition to doing all the regular care activities, I have to do extra work that seems avoidable, yk? It's just so freaking CONSTANT, and when I feel like she is making it more constant than it needs to be, I feel irritated.

I got out of the going back down the hill thing today because my friend went and got her, but if I had ended up going after her after calling her and asking her to come back up the hill, I would have been pissed. It is situations like these where I begin to feel like my needs and desires don't matter at all, and I need to implement some kind of control so I don't feel like she rules me.

I have a friend who has a kid who is horrible, truly. She is crazy over the top GD, to the point where she doesn't implement any consequences even for extreme or violent behaviours. His behaviour is out of control, and she minimizes and ignores it. He is 8 now, but when he was smaller he used to bite her hard enough to draw blood, and she would pretend it didn't hurt. That is the style of parenting I'm talking about. The kid rules her, truly, interrupts social interactions, drags her away from things, and she just lets him. I won't take my kid around him because he attacks her every chance he gets.

This is an extreme case, but I don't want to be the type of parent who when my kid bites me I pretend it doesn't hurt. Not that that is going on here - she doesn't bite, and really for a 2 yr old she is pretty mild, from an objective point of view.

But there are moments, like the hill thing. We had a great time. I felt like she was ready to leave. At the foot of the hill, we paused for five minutes or so even tho the grown ups were done, because dd was enjoying throwing rocks in the water. I didn't rush her, even tho I wanted to, I waited til she was done and came to me before we started up the hill. I DIDN'T WANT TO GO BACK DOWN THE FREAKING HILL, full stop. Is there a way to make room for that?


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia*
Well, you did ask a yes or no question







She had bigger fish to fry, mama











Argh, yes, I did ask it as a question, didn't I. I'll need to be careful to word things like this as statements in future.

So the co-clean-up - how to convince her to participate? What if she refuses? I tried this once and she wouldn't help at all, so I told her she would have to sit on the chair til I finished. That motivated her to help, but is there another way?

Quote:

Is she, by chance, six weeks on either side of her half birthday? I think I remember she is??
Yup. She was 2.5 at the beginning of this month.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

The co-clean up... I never really gave my dd the choice. I always said "lets go get a towel and clean this up" she comes with me, gets the towel... she may not actually clean it up entirely but she will at least stay there while I do it or try to help. If she refuses I will usually sit her down next to where I am and tell her she may help me clean up or she may sit there until I am finished. She may not go play while I clean up the mess by myself. That has always worked for me. It is sometimes harder to get her to comply, but those days she is usually difficult in other ways so I think there is something going on and give her some slack.

Other than that, I am not sure what to tell you. ages 2 and 3 was really really hard for me, it was A LOT of work. I felt very much like I was constantly following her around and never got a break (my dh works very very very long days so I was very much the only caretaker 6 days out of the week). I remember breaking down and being frustrated at least once a week if not more. But that said... dd is now 5 and one of the sweetest, most helpful, and independent girls. She is still spirited and we still have our days, but its fewer and far between. She is very independent during the day and actually asks to get her own meals, be given more "jobs" etc.

So I dont really have any advice other than it does get better and I truly believe that putting the extra work in now, while frustrating and tiring, does pay off as they get older.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PatchyMama*
So I dont really have any advice other than it does get better and I truly believe that putting the extra work in now, while frustrating and tiring, does pay off as they get older.

















: I know sometimes it feels like all I'm doing is thinking ahead of the game and putting out fires, but I really think that it's a mid shift that needs to occur. Little kids simply don't have reliable impulse control. That's just the way it is....so unless you're a parent who is routinely shaming or hitting your child to gain compliance by fear (which I'm not saying you are, i'mjust saying that's about teh only way I think it happens in younger children, or if you're blessed with a "Zen child"...







) I think it just needs to become part of your routine. She's unable to control her impulses, so you need to modify the situation or environment so it doesn't turn into a "thing". With DS, I know he's a runner too, so any time we're leaving somewhere, I go to him and take his hand. I just know it's gonna happen, so I don't bother gettgin upset about it.

I don't know if it was on this thread or another one that this was brought up before, but I'm not worried about him doing this when he's 5 or 7...he's been through many stages that he's outgrown, and I know he'll outgrow this one too. When things come up, I look at what it's telling me about his development and capabilities, and modify what I can. BUT, I still talk to and explain to him, so I'm not just lettign him run amok...I'm sorry your friend's child seems to not have received any guidance, that's one way GD gets a bad name, is when parents don't do anything at all - even the completely consensual mamas here come to mutually agreeable solutions, and I can't imagine any of them would be OK with being bitten hard enough to draw blood. I can't think of many things we just learn instantly - everything is on a curve...the point is that she will outgrow this, and with your guidance in appropriate ways, she will outgrow it to an acceptable way for your own family. But just because she is dumping cashews at 2.5 even though she knows she's not supposed to does not mean she will be doign the same thing at 8, so long as you're "there".

I guess I kind of look at this the same way I did about dishes (which sounds bizarre, but stay with me for a minute): I was gettign really aggravated that it seemed like I could NEVER get ahead on our dishes and always seemed to have a load waiting for me to be done. Then, I had a this *shocking*







revelation: we eat 3 meals a day, plus snacks, every day. OF COURSE there's always goignto be dishes to do! SOunds so silly and simple in my mind, but once I got my head wrapped around the concept that I would be doing at least one load of dishes a day, I totally mellowed out and it didn't bother me anymore. Same thing with laundry - realizing that at least one load a day needs to be done for some reason eliminated the resentment and stress about it.

So, I think you might just need to come ot a realization that:
1. This is all TOTALLY normal for your daughter, developmentally, and that so long as you are giving her gentle guidance and consistent responses, she WILL grow out of all these various things, most of which are variations of impulse control, really.

2. Since you know that these things are happening, it's up to you to be in prevention mode as much as possible. I've found that prevention is a million times easier than 'correction'. SO when he was in a food flinging stage as a young toddler, we only gave him a couple bites at a time insteda of giving him the whole plate. Since I know right now he has an impulse to bolt when he sees neat stuff, if we're goign to or leaving some place, he holds my hand or is carried. It's as much about my sanity as anything. what's that saying? "An ounce of prevention......." I don't remember the rest. But for us, it's true.

I know it's hard to get out of the "she knows she shouldn't...." frame of mind, but seriously, until they're at least 3 (aside from that magical Zen child I mentioned), even if they "know" somehting and can tell you what they're supposed to or not supposed to do, that darn impulse control sometimes makes it impossible for them to follow through on their 'knowledge'. I also think this has to do with your concern that she seems to not realize your needs. I don't think 2.5s have a great sense of empathy either developmentally, and the best way to teach them empathy for you is to give them empathy for the stage that they are at. I firmly believe for the first 3 or 4 years, the onus is on the parent to modify things, and model the way they want their child to interact, and to present the expectation of the same respect, etc. for themselves (the parent), but to not necessarily expect it reliably because children aren't developmentally capable of it until they're a bit older - if you lay the groundwork though, when the age hits and it "clicks", then the payoff is huge.

So, as the PP said that I quoted, it's more frustrating and exhausting for us as parents now, but personally I'd rather have frustration and exhaustion with a 2.5 year old than a much older, stronger, developed 10-year-old, or God forbid a teenager.

Hope this helps.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Oh boy can it be frustrating to parent a 2-3 yo! I know what you are feeling about the hill situation. My dd would do that. And I would resent having to go down and back up. I do not know the geography of the location the beach was in, but if it was at all safe, I would just keep an eye on dd from the top of the hill until she was ready to come up. I used to be the world's most impatient person, but in the last couple of years I have finally come to realize that 20 minutes is not a big deal. Unless I know I have dinner burning in the oven or someone waiting for me to pick them up, I will really just allow dd to get her dilly-dallies out. It is actually good for me to sometimes step back to see life from dd's eyes. If that hill with those rocks is so captivating for dd, I am probably missing out on something. And even if I am not in the mood to scale the hill again, I try to take a deep breath, sit down, keep an eye on dd, and enjoy the relaxing moment instead of making it into a stressful moment for both of us. And I know it seems almost impossible but when I allow her these moments, they come up MUCH less often. We rarely have trouble with leaving places. Dd does not turn it into a power struggle because she knows that if she truly does not want to leave someplace, I will do what I can to help her get what she wants. There is no need to test, or stretch the limits because she knows there really are no hard and fast limits.

I also know what you mean about the juice, nuts, cleaning up, and matter-of-fact announcements. My dd is a little older than yours. She does not drink juice so we are only dealing with water. I know that developmentally she can handle a regular cup. She uses one for meals, restaurants, and at her small table in the kitchen. However, right now the "rule" is that she has sippy cups in the rest of the house. She has not protested it yet. If she did, we would change it. But for now, we are all more comfortable with sippys. However, things do still spill. And I can never know for sure if it is accidental or on purpose. So I assume the best, even when dd seems almost happy when announcing it. I say the same thing every time. "Oops. XYZ spilled, let's clean it up". I never force or even ask her to help. It is implied in the "lets" but she soemtimes chooses to just watch. I do not sweat this. I do not allow myself to get upset. Cleaning up spilled stuff is part of parenting a preschooler. She often helps. Sometimes not. And most foten these days, she actually cleans it up without telling me. I sometimes do not even know something spilled until I find the evidence smeared on a kitchen towel. Despite the fact that I did not "teach" her to clean up her messes, she is getting it. We do not and have never surrounded the issue with shame, begging, or consequences. Yet, she still feels compelled to advance in this area. SO I would not get too worried about how things spill or how much she helps. She will get it. And probably faster if allowed to take the reigns on her own progress.

Developmental lapses are completely normal. I have never met a small child that did not do this. One day dd can get her own snacks out of the fridge but then requests that I do it for her a month later. I am sure there are all sorts of scientific reasons for this. I do not know what they are. But I do know it happens and I try to just roll with the punches. I like what a pp said about knowing that you have those dishes and that they will keep coming. I know that I will be cleaning up spills. Heck, I sometimes need to help dh clean up a mess. There is a good chance that I will be called upon to clean up juice when dd is 16 at some point. There is also a good chance that the 16 yo dd will want to linger for 10 more minutes at the fashion store. It is going to happen. All I can control is my reaction to it.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

As I am sure you are beginning to see, parenting this age child is a combination of always trying to be one step ahead and always being on your toes. And its hard, and exhausting, and sometimes you just want to sit down and join your kid in a long "I just don't want to" whine. Which is OK to do, by the way.

Given the rest of your life, I think that being one step ahead and trying to prevent as many problems as possible would make life easier and less stressful for you. As you said, you have needs too and this is one way to hlep yourself get what you need. So she CAN drink out of a regular cup. Doesn't mean it will do her any harm not to. If spilled juice stresses you out, then have her use a sippy. Or a cup with a straw and lid, if that seems less "babyish" to you. My 6 YO still uses lidded straw cups when away from the table. Its just easier. If spilled nuts makes YOU nuts, then be sure to put them down where she can't get them. And so on through the day. For the next week, track what stresses you out and figure out how to modify the environment. Yes, this takes work, but less than cleaning up / stressing out all day.

For cleaning up, definitely make it a "mommy & me" thing and have her help, but she's too little to expect to do it on her own. If she doesn't help, at least have her stay right with you while you clean.

If running away is a frequent thing, then she needs to hold your hand when you are out. If she won't, you wait until she will. Or you need to find a backpack or other carrier for her. Or decide that you are comfortable with a leash or something. I know that lots of people here don't like them, but sometimes I think they are a "lesser evil" than having either kid or mommy meltdowns all the time. Yesterday at Seaworld I saw a toddler backpack that looked like a monkey with a long tail, and mom held the other end of the tail. She said she got them (she had twins) at Target.

For the beach, if you were confident that she wouldn't go into the water and you could get to her if something happened, I would have waited at the top of the hill for her to come back. Waiting is sometimes a really good response.

And don't worry about her being a monster at 8. Maybe your friend's child would have been a difficult a child regardless of how he was parented. And remember that GENTLE discipline doesn't mean NO discipline. It means, among other things, that discipline and expecatations are appropriate and respectful of the chid's age. Yours is at an age where you can't do too much other than redirection and gentle consequences like helping clean what was spilled. As she gets older, consequences can be more meaningful, though not necessarily harsher. But you can cross that bridge when it comes!

Right now, take some time to think about the next couple of days and how you can change things to reduce the stress. Good luck.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Weighing in late about the twiddling...

DS also bottle nurses and has to do what he calls "rubbing blanket tails". The tails are the edges of his lovey, and he must be rubbing them while drinking a baba and usually just for falling asleep.

He tells me he _needs_ them, and he's not a kid to use that word for very much!







I do think there is a strong drive for that, and finding another interesting texture besides "nipple" would help.

Gosh, after the years of pumping I've done, I think I'd hit the ceiling if anyone "twiddled" my nipples. They are super-sensitive. Heck I jump if my shirt rubs them.


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## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Yooper, 'nother great post! ITA!


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## Ayala Eilon (Apr 8, 2006)

I would worry that she will have a negative relationship to sitting on couches...
Anyway, I have learned that everything can be handled without being punitive, and I hear that you wish not to be punitive. I have four children, and I got the most help from the book, Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves. On amazon, the book review says it all:
"Every parent would happily give up ever scolding, punishing or threatening if she only knew how to ensure that her toddler/child/teen would thrive and act responsibly without such painful measures. Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves is the answer to this universal wish. It is not about gentle ways to control a child, but about a way of being and of understanding a child so she/he can be the best of herself, not because she fears you, but because she wants to, of her own free will."
So, if I were you, I would study this book, and also Aldort's CD set Babies and Toddlers, to Tame or to Trust. It transformed our struggles into ease and peace.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper*
I do not know the geography of the location the beach was in, but if it was at all safe, I would just keep an eye on dd from the top of the hill until she was ready to come up. I used to be the world's most impatient person, but in the last couple of years I have finally come to realize that 20 minutes is not a big deal. Unless I know I have dinner burning in the oven or someone waiting for me to pick them up, I will really just allow dd to get her dilly-dallies out. It is actually good for me to sometimes step back to see life from dd's eyes. If that hill with those rocks is so captivating for dd, I am probably missing out on something.

You all sound so much more zen than I am. I feel like, when I want to go, I want to go! I'm hungry, or I'm tired, or I have somewhere I have to be, yk? Rarely does it work for me to just sit and wait til she is done. Again, what about me, here?

In the beach scenario, I had already waited for her to finish throwing rocks, and then it was time to go. And the thing with the hill was that it curved so if one of us hadn't followed her, we wouldn't have been able to see her at all, and that would have been dangerous.

I don't expect that she will be able to empathize and consider my needs and desires in our relationship - she is 2, and she is my child, I am the mama. But how do I ensure my needs get met, at least part of the time, or when it feels important? Diverting to her every time causes me to feel like I am being rendered invisible, sacrificing too much, yk?

Quote:

And I know it seems almost impossible but when I allow her these moments, they come up MUCH less often. We rarely have trouble with leaving places. Dd does not turn it into a power struggle because she knows that if she truly does not want to leave someplace, I will do what I can to help her get what she wants. There is no need to test, or stretch the limits because she knows there really are no hard and fast limits.
See, the way I have seen this is that I need to set limits, or she will forever be looking for them.

Quote:

However, right now the "rule" is that she has sippy cups in the rest of the house.
I could do this, I don't think my kid would protest. I'm just disorganized, and I never can find all the bits to the sippy.

I think my being disorganized may really be contributing in a bunch of areas to this drama we're having.

Quote:

I do not allow myself to get upset.
How can you not allow yourself to get upset? If you're upset, you're upset, no? I'm not getting what to do with my angry feelings about this stuff, other than repress them, which doesn't feel like a good thing to do.

Quote:

I like what a pp said about knowing that you have those dishes and that they will keep coming.
Yeah, I'm pondering this and find it helpful too. I need to build in to my expectations that these things will come up. Then I won't be so surprised, and maybe not so angry or irritated when they do.


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## nancy926 (Mar 10, 2003)

I skimmed through all of these posts so I apologize if I repeat anyone's insights....

She sounds just like a 2.5 year old. Honestly, 2.5 to just over 3 were some really trying months. BUT - things are only issues if YOU make them issues. I am to the point now where I don't make a big deal out of anything unless:

1. someone is about to be injured
2. something is about to break such that someone might be injured, or we might have to make a claim to our homeowner's insurance
3. well, that's about it really

I used to have all these rules - you can't eat this in this room, this can't go here, you must help clean up this if it spills, blah blah. And did it help? Nope. Just made me more stressed trying to remember all the rules!

I too have waited patiently for my DD to be done playing in the sand, wishing desperately there was a port-o-john nearby and wishing even more desperately that I could be on a deserted island with a good book and a pint of ice cream.

Now my DD, who is 3.5, will help clean up messes and usually goes along with what we suggest, as long as we don't suggest TOO many things in TOO short of a time span.









and I keep thinking - before I know it she'll be an adult, and I will want her to make her OWN decisions and not kowtow to what others want. My new mantra is "I am raising independent, creative and spirited adults." (The baby's acting 2.5 and she's only 9 mos! LOL.)

I do not know if any of this made sense, but the short version is: Give up on the dryer button and just let her press it 'til the cows come home. It's only fun because it pushes YOUR buttons, too.









Nancy


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nancy926*

I too have waited patiently for my DD to be done playing in the sand, wishing desperately there was a port-o-john nearby and wishing even more desperately that I could be on a deserted island with a good book and a pint of ice cream.

See, this is not okay with me. Her desire to play in the sand does not supercede my need to go pee. I don't want parenting to take so much of me that I can't pee when I need to, or that I am just sitting there wishing I could be somewhere else.

I am not a martyr here. And I don't know where the balance is between respecting her and sacrificing too much of myself.


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## nancy926 (Mar 10, 2003)

It's not okay with me either, but I've done it. And I have a really small bladder.









I don't think I'm a martyr - I just have to wait to pee sometimes now. Just like I don't get to sit and read the paper every morning and have a leisurely breakfast, or read an entire book at one sitting. Ain't gonna happen for a few years.

Maybe I am a pessimist, but parenting *is* going to involve moments of wishing you were somewhere else, and not being able to pee when you need to. I don't think that means it's terrible.

In fact, I can't imagine anything more heroic than being a parent - particularly a single parent. You sometimes do stuff you don't really want to do (like playing Candy Land ad nauseum, using made-up rules that change by the minute), so that someone else can be happy. And most of the time that someone else doesn't realize you're doing it.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

I dont think its being a martyr either. I think parenting is about compromises on both sides. I know sometimes my girls have to wait a few minutes to pee because I am in line at the grocery store or where ever. I don't think anyone is advocating giving in ALL the time to what your daughter wants.... but choosing which instances are most important for your needs to take precedence in. I look at each situation independently and try to decide whose needs take priority. It's especially hard when there is more than one kid that needs to have their needs met and I do find a lot of the time my wants are pushed to later or at night when they are sleeping. But I am ok with that for this short period of time when they are little. I don't feel like I am being a martyr, I knew that they would be time consuming when I decided to have kids and parent in the way I want to.

Obviously your situation is a lot different and you have a harder time finding the right balance







I hope that someone can offer some good advice.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

I've only read 2 pages of this discussion, so who knows where it is now, but I just wanted to say this.

My kids and I just got back from an exhausting week long trip to visit my mom and sister. My 3 year old couldn't sleep very well while we were there, and she was kind of tired and getting over a cold before we left. She was soooo tired, and cranky, my one year old had an ear infection and wouldn't let me out of his sight, and I was also exhausted.

So I resorted to threats. What a wreck! It DID save me in some situations that were unsafe, and in the airport, but it just made us fight so much. AND, every time I threatened, "If you don't do this, I'm going to do this..." it just created the idea that she wouldn't do it.

I just really hate to draw the line in the sand like that. I'd just pick her up and move her after you ask her once. After you did that a few times, it would be just as effective with a child your age, I think.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
You all sound so much more zen than I am. I feel like, when I want to go, I want to go! I'm hungry, or I'm tired, or I have somewhere I have to be, yk? Rarely does it work for me to just sit and wait til she is done. Again, what about me, here?
<snip>
I don't expect that she will be able to empathize and consider my needs and desires in our relationship - she is 2, and she is my child, I am the mama. But how do I ensure my needs get met, at least part of the time, or when it feels important? Diverting to her every time causes me to feel like I am being rendered invisible, sacrificing too much, yk?

I don't go for the martyr bit either (as you mentioned in a post subsequent to the above one)...so something like the beach, if you already know she tends to dilly dally or get distracted or whatever (and if you didn't before, you do know it now), I would just build that into your expectations, and not give it the opportunity to happen, as much as you possibly can. When it's time to go, go to her, say it's time to go, and take her hand as you walk up the hill together. I'm also not beyond picking up a "noodle kid" and carrying them; empathizing, yes, staying calm and gentle yes. But I am not one who always defaults to my child....most of the time, I do because he's younger and less experienced, and has less ability to cope with disappointment than I do - ITA with PatchyMama on this...bolding my emphasis...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PatchyMama*
I dont think its being a martyr either. I think parenting is about compromises on both sides. I know sometimes my girls have to wait a few minutes to pee because I am in line at the grocery store or where ever. I don't think anyone is advocating giving in ALL the time to what your daughter wants.... but choosing which instances are most important for your needs to take precedence in. I look at each situation independently and try to decide whose needs take priority. It's especially hard when there is more than one kid that needs to have their needs met and I do find a lot of the time my wants are pushed to later or at night when they are sleeping. *But I am ok with that for this short period of time when they are little.* I don't feel like I am being a martyr, I knew that they would be time consuming when I decided to have kids and parent in the way I want to.

BUT when something really does matter to me, I gently facilitate it before it gets to the point where I'm compeltely frustrated. Again, yes, more effort and maybe more planning up front on my part, but way better than me feeling resentful that I can't pee or take a breath without clearing it with him first. I've also found that simply explaining things to him ahead of time works wonders.

For example: I usually try to build in 5-10 minutes when we're going out so he can run around our yard before we get into the car. However, on cold rainy days like today, or if we're running late, instead of springing it on him as we're out the door, when we're getting jackets and shoes, I'll say to him, "Hey kiddo, I know we usually play before we go to the car, but this time we have to get right in the car and get going because X." and repeat that a couple times over the next few minutes while I'm getting his snack and water, and getting my coat and shoes on. THEN, as we're walking out the door, I make sure I have his hand in mine, because I know if I don't, even though I talked to him about it he'll probably make a run for the yard. SO as we walk down the steps together, I remind him again we have to go right to the car, and he's totally fine. I learned this one the hard way, after many times of chasing him and carrying him upside down over my shoulder because I sprung it on him as we were walking down the steps and he already had his eyes on the grass...that's the "ounce of prevention" thing I mentioned in one of my previous posts.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
How can you not allow yourself to get upset? If you're upset, you're upset, no? I'm not getting what to do with my angry feelings about this stuff, other than repress them, which doesn't feel like a good thing to do.

Personally, I let myself get upset...my feelings are as valid as DS's. What I try to NOT do is let my feelings of frustration or whatever 'make' me do or say soemthing I wouldn't ahve done if I was calm. I'll say, "I'm frustrated right now, just a minute" or, "Mommy is angry, I need a minute to calm down" and just verbalizing the feelings really does help.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
I need to build in to my expectations that these things will come up. Then I won't be so surprised, and maybe not so angry or irritated when they do.

I really, REALLY think this will help. Really. (did I mention really?







)


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## mbravebird (May 9, 2005)

:

This is a great discussion. You mamas are great!


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:

Personally, I let myself get upset...my feelings are as valid as DS's. What I try to NOT do is let my feelings of frustration or whatever 'make' me do or say soemthing I wouldn't ahve done if I was calm. I'll say, "I'm frustrated right now, just a minute" or, "Mommy is angry, I need a minute to calm down" and just verbalizing the feelings really does help.
ITA, and it's modeling constructive ways to handle intense emotions at the same time.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

On the "not allowing myself to get angry"..... I might not have worded that correctly. I am not at all into suppressing feelings. I do not think dd should do it and I feel that doing it myself would be setting a bad example. What I meant by that, is that I try not to let little things like spilled juice ruin my mood. Of course, I have days when spills do really wreck my mood. But when I examine the fact that my primary job is raising a toddler, then spills are part of the job description. I do not find great joy in mopping up messes, but they are part of a package that is joyful. But I will not allow myself to get angry at dd. Even if she did spill on purpose (which I really could never prove anyway), directing my frustation on her only makes the entire situation worse. The same thing can be extrapolated to potty accidents, muddy feet on the newly mopped floor, and gum stuck to my couch. I signed up for this gig and those are part of the package. However, I also have no problem with explaining to dd that I am in a bad mood and why.

OTOH, I can totally understand hot-button issues. Spills are not a biggie for me. But sleep is. My worst parenting moments have always involved sleep. I have had to FORCE myself to be calm when my mind was screaming. I have had to call friends late at night to take over so that I would not blow. I have paid high school sitters to put my child to sleep. Things are better now but I really had to stretch myself, our meager financial resources, and my imagination to get through those difficulties. It sound slike a lot of what you are discussing here are hot button issues. Hearing everyone say that it is no big deal for them is probably frustrating. And we still have those nights. Dh travels a lot but when he is home, he has bed duty. He is more patient in that department. Dd goes to bed when she wants to but still has trouble falling asleep. I have lifelong severe insomnia so there is no mystery as to where it came from. Last night, dh was up there for 2.5 hours and dd was still not asleep. I came in to ask if he needed me to take over. He was fuming angry. Not AT dd but at the situation. I laid my hand on dd's head to find she had a raging fever. No wonder she could not sleep. Dh instantly melted and felt bad for being so angry. But that is an obvious problem. On other nights when there is no fever and she is not sleeping, it is easy for me to feel like she is testing me or staying awake on purpose. I have to remind myself eveyr time that I do not know what is going on in her body. I do not know why she does some of the things she does. All I can do is be there for her and help her. It is hard. But there is always a way.


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## mbravebird (May 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper*
I signed up for this gig and those are part of the package. However, I also have no problem with explaining to dd that I am in a bad mood and why.

I have to remind myself eveyr time that I do not know what is going on in her body. I do not know why she does some of the things she does. All I can do is be there for her and help her. It is hard. But there is always a way.

We have some sleep issues, too. This is such a helpful way to frame it. Thank you.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

ITA that this is a great discussion. It is helping me immensely. There is so much good stuff here, I wish I could respond to everything people have said that has resonated with me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *donosmommy04*
if you already know she tends to dilly dally or get distracted or whatever (and if you didn't before, you do know it now), I would just build that into your expectations, and not give it the opportunity to happen, as much as you possibly can. When it's time to go, go to her, say it's time to go, and take her hand as you walk up the hill together. I'm also not beyond picking up a "noodle kid" and carrying them; empathizing, yes, staying calm and gentle yes. But I am not one who always defaults to my child....most of the time, I do because he's younger and less experienced, and has less ability to cope with disappointment than I do

Yeah, this works for me. I'd like to do as PatchyMama suggested and consider the situation, and whose needs take precedence. Then if the answer is "mine," I'd like to ensure I get get my needs met (leaving on time, going in the car and not the bike trailer, whatever) without needing to get angry or feeling guilty about it. Currently I tend to feel a combination of both.

Quote:

Personally, I let myself get upset...my feelings are as valid as DS's. What I try to NOT do is let my feelings of frustration or whatever 'make' me do or say soemthing I wouldn't ahve done if I was calm. I'll say, "I'm frustrated right now, just a minute" or, "Mommy is angry, I need a minute to calm down" and just verbalizing the feelings really does help.
Yeah, that is really good. I used to do that, but I've moved away from it lately. What Piglet said about ascribing motivations of "testing" that aren't necessarily there has really rung true for me. I think sometimes it is testing, but many times it is not and I have assumed whatever she is doing is a voluntary, deliberate behaviour. And even when it is testing, responding to it with anger and offense is not the best. Probably either way it is best to respond as though it is a developmental thing, that she simply must do something or cannot stop.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nancy926*

I don't think I'm a martyr - I just have to wait to pee sometimes now. Just like I don't get to sit and read the paper every morning and have a leisurely breakfast, or read an entire book at one sitting. Ain't gonna happen for a few years.

I have to wait to pee sometimes too. In the mornings she is usually half-asleep, half-nursing for AGES. And I wait to get up til I absolutely have to go, because I know it is important for her to transition slowly from sleep to wakefulness. So I put my needs on hold then.

I think part of my (very complex, it seems







) problem is that whenever I don't put my needs on hold for hers, and she tantrums or gets sad as a result, I feel guilty. And then I feel angry that I "have to" feel guilty about giving my agenda precedence over hers. Which then contributes to my feeling like I will lose my temper with her, which is why I gravitate toward solutions like the sofa thing.

If that makes any freaking sense at all to anyone but me.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

I don't know if this was addressed specifically, since I only had time to read the first 3 pages of this (very interesting and helpful) thread, but I wanted to say something re: rabbits as pets.

IMO and IME bunnies are really not very good household pets and especially not for small children. They are really not happy being caged but they tend to wreak havoc (chewing through wires and such) when allowed to roam through the house. They are INCREDIBLY sensitive, fragile animals compared to dogs or cats. Lights bother them, loud noises bother them, toddlers terrify them I am sure. A toddler could also really hurt a rabbit (picking them up by the ears, etc.). It really seems like a lose-lose for both the toddler and the bunny to have one as a pet before the child is old enough to be a mature bunny caretaker. I speak from experience - my parents got my sister a bunny when she was little and it had a pretty sad (and scared) life, spending most of its time in a cage or being too-roughly handled by my sister and her friends, who thought that the bunny could be handled similarly to a cat. The poor thing would be so traumatized by being picked up and carried around that its little heart would about beat out of its chest. And my sister was 10 years old when she got the rabbit - still not mature enough to take care of such a needy, sensitive animal, although she did her best. Plus we did not have an outdoor space for the bunny to run. I would never have a rabbit and a toddler in the same household after learning more about them. There are rabbit rescues you can contact if you are interested in getting rid of the bunny. It just does not seem like the best situation and likely will continue to be a source of frustration for you, your DD and the rabbit.

JMO of course! I know they are so cute and cuddly, but they are deceptively difficult housepets. A kitten is actually much easier to deal with.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper*
OTOH, I can totally understand hot-button issues. Spills are not a biggie for me. But sleep is. My worst parenting moments have always involved sleep. I have had to FORCE myself to be calm when my mind was screaming.

Ditto here. It's like a Jekyl/Hyde thing sometimes, and I always end up feeling like crap about it when I am so HOT inside and just want to scream, "GO TO !&@^$!#! SLEEP, YOU'RE EXHAUSTED!!" - and some nights I do "scream" that repeatedly, inside my head







. Some nights it takes every ounce of my normally "Zen" self







to keep it under control in the sleep arena sometimes. Cosleeping has been a sanity saver for me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper*
It sound slike a lot of what you are discussing here are hot button issues. Hearing everyone say that it is no big deal for them is probably frustrating.

Yooper, I think this is a great observation, really.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
I think part of my (very complex, it seems







) problem is that whenever I don't put my needs on hold for hers, and she tantrums or gets sad as a result, I feel guilty. And then I feel angry that I "have to" feel guilty about giving my agenda precedence over hers. Which then contributes to my feeling like I will lose my temper with her, which is why I gravitate toward solutions like the sofa thing.

If that makes any freaking sense at all to anyone but me.

Actually, this makes a LOT of sense to me...and ties in with Yooper's "hot button" idea above...

I have really gotten a lot out of this discussion and some other recent ones, I can't tell you all how much I am enjoying the board recently.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Now that this thread seems to be winding down, I just want to say a big







THANK YOU







to all the mamas who have helped out.

The straightforward critique and empathy for my struggling have been really helpful, and truly over the past few days I feel like this thread has revolutionized how I see my toddler's behaviour. I still don't have it all figured out, and this morning I found myself losing patience when she jumped in the puddles on the driveway and soaked her shoes. But I'm definitely seeing this stuff as being about impulse control, and not about her intentionally creating conflict, which is how I was seeing it before. And that shift in perspective is really lowering my stress and opening my mind to new possibilities for dealing with this stuff.

Anyway, thanks for the support and help. I really, really appreciate it! And so does my kid, I can tell.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

little flip flops can be your best friend... trust me, LOL! We have a few pairs of them and dd practically lives in hers because otherwise her shoes would always be wet or muddy.








I am glad you are finding your days a tiny bit less stressful.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Flipflops, yeah. The silly thing is we have flip-flops (that I bought after my last thread bemoaning her constant sandal removal







). Plus we have several pairs of really good shoes passed down from friends. I just was in a hurry and didn't want to go back in the house to grab them. She jumped in the small puddles, and I reminded her patiently and went to get her. Before I got there she got to the edge of the big puddle, and I called her name in an angry voice.









She stopped short of the big puddle, and I said, "Good for you, blahblah," but the stupid thing is her shoes were already soaked from the smaller puddles, and I had to go back in and get the other shoes. I could have been a little more chill about it, kwim? It's not like the puddle-jumping isn't predictable by now.

I think I'm not going to be one of the more zen-patient GD mamas. I'm a little high strung. But at least I'm not thinking she jumped in the puddles deliberately, and feeling like I have a "right" to feel angry, which was not a good road.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

ah i don't think there is such thing as a perfect zen-patient GD mama. We all have our issues... like someone else said before. For us its definately night time... I get very frustrated when she doesnt go to bed til 1 or 2 am cause thats my time, LOL. Or last night dd2 was screaming bloody murder for hours and I could not figure out why... i swear the neighbors probably think we were letting her CIO or something. So we all have our own things and the thing is we know it and we always work on it









I missed the post about the shoes before.... I have a dd who hates shoes. She takes them off and leaves them anytime she is sitting somewhere... hates hates hates to wear them. I know it sounds ridiculous but we have at least 3 pairs of flip flops just because of this lol. one for the car, one for the house and one for the diaper bag (just in case). So when I can I try to get her shoes on before we leave the house.. but if not or if she forgets she at least has back ups LOL. I can't complain too much tho cause I know how it feels, I hate shoes


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## nancy926 (Mar 10, 2003)

About the shoes thing....whenever my DD does something along those lines, I stop and think: what's the worst possible outcome? If it's not loss of life or limb, or destruction of expensive property, I let it go (unless of course we're on our way to a wedding or something and she has to stay clean/dry...but that's what extra outfits are for, too).

In this case, wet shoes. And what's the worst possible consequence of that? Well, she could whine that her shoes are wet.







Or the shoes COULD be ruined (but most likely are not - stuff some newspaper in them when we get home and they'll be fine). The whining would be annoying, but a great place to point out that they're wet because she jumped in the puddles.

She's totally not out to "get you"...she's just exploring stuff. I honestly don't think I realized that my parents had wants and needs too until I went off to college!

If you've never read Playful Parenting, it's an eye opener and so worth the read.









this has been a great thread and I'm glad it's helped!


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nancy926*
She's totally not out to "get you"...she's just exploring stuff. I honestly don't think I realized that my parents had wants and needs too until I went off to college!

Yeah.

I was having an argument with a friend last night about this issue, and her perspective is that I spoil dd with nursing on demand and co-sleeping, and now that I am leaning this way in terms of discipline she is going to rule me and be a really selfish kid, that definitely a lot of her behaviours are about trying to be defiant, blahblah.

So I was talking about having reframed her behaviour as being about developmental incapacity to control impulses, lack of gross motor control (clumsiness with bunny), and about not having a sense of empathy developed enough to worry about my feelings.

My friend was all, "Well I don't buy that, she is developmentally advanced." Well it's true she has good verbal skills and is hard to mess with in terms of offering false choices to get her to do something she is not into (the whole "red dress or blue dress?" "I'm not getting dressed.")

But it has really become clear to me that 2.5 is a whole different being than an adult, which I knew before but I was really still applying some very adult expectations and interpretations of her behaviour.

I have several good GD mama friends, but the people that I spend the most time with are my roommate and one other friend, who is opinionated and childless. Those two get ranting, and they are not the most supportive context for my gentle parenting efforts.

ETA - I'm going to try to borrow Playful Parenting from a friend today.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

This may or may not be helpful, but I have puddle-jumpers and I love rainboots. Easy-on, easy-off, waterproof, and my kids love them. Yes, they look a little silly when it's not actually raining but whatever. My two year old dresses herself and never matches anyway (my MIL is always embarrassed, and tells me to make sure I let everyone know dd dresses herself so no none thinks I'm colorblind or just have really lousy taste).

Not that you need more footwear.

Oh, and zen-mommy is really hard to do all the time. I'd like to see some zen masters live with my kids for a day (okay, maybe a week) and see how zen they are at the end of it.


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## Synchro246 (Aug 8, 2005)

I haven't read the other responses yet.

I think that if it's working and your attachment to your child isn't being tried (as in time out) then it's fine. You are redirecting her essentially. It's like the sofa is a reset button. She's allowed to interact with you and her surroundings. You comfort her. and IT WORKS! I say keep doing it. I'm glad you found something that's effective and gentle.


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## nancy926 (Mar 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
... her perspective is that I spoil dd with nursing on demand and co-sleeping, and now that I am leaning this way in terms of discipline she is going to rule me and be a really selfish kid, that definitely a lot of her behaviours are about trying to be defiant....

Oh please. My older DD still nurses (tho she has had her own bed for the past year) and she is not selfish in the least. I would say that 80% of the time she is a blast to be around. Kids don't "try" to be defiant -they're just testing out the world. It's adults that label them that way and then get caught in this cycle of attempting to control another person, which is impossible to do!


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