# GDing doesn't feel right to me



## TonyaW (Dec 5, 2006)

At least what I have read so far feels a bit permissive. Perhaps you all can help clarify things for me. I just started reading Raising Ourselves, Raising Our Children (I think that's is what it is called). Also I got about 30 minutes into the DVD Unconditional Parenting last night with DH before my DS woke and I had to go to bed. So it doesn't feel quite right so far, and I know my husband will call it permissive once we have a chance to talk about it. So I want some good rebuttals for him too. I like some of the ideas, but maybe I am not far enough along to completely get it. It just feels too permissive. Like what if my son who is 14 months old wants to run into the street. I know I wouldn't just let him decide to do that. Would I just say I know you want to do that but it is too dangerous? I guess I don't understand how to deal with some scenarios completely. I know you can't change their reality but are supposed to validate them. What I don't get is allowing them to make whatever decision they want. For example, in the book she mentions that if the child comes in with muddy feet you just say, oh your shoes are muddy lets take them off. Then we let the child decide if they want to help clean up. I understand that a smaller child just won't get it but don't see anything wrong with asking them to help me and showing them. At this age, I wouldn't expect my son to really do much but if he was 5, I would expect him to clean it up. So what if the child didn't want to take off the muddy shoes. Are we supposed to let them decide when to do that and just let the house get muddy? I just don't get it completely and really would appreciate some insight. Especially for a child my son's age. How do you practice unconditional parenting with a child who can't even reason. I feel like I am supposed to let my child do what he wants without any direction or guidance for fear of controlling him.


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## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

Read a bit more on this board. There is a WIDE range of what people call GD, everything from consenual living to authoritative, and no two families are the same or have the same philosophies. GD is just grounded in respect for self and others, and the golden rule.

I am authoritative. In this house, I am alpha. Although my kids are getting older and have more of a voice, it has been a gradual incline of priviledge matched with responsibility, and only when they are ready for it. A child running in the street? No way would I let a 14mo decide for himself if it's the right thing. Redirection, confinement (in arms, sling, stroller, fence), and a quick explanation of "The car will hit you and BOOM! Big owies!" when child will run off. They just don't have the reasoning skills needed at that age, nor the life experience to understand why not.

I find unconditional parenting/consenual living works better when a child is older. We're gravitating in that direction, but not fully there yet. I think for it to work with minimal headache the child must be at least slightly self sufficient and have an awareness of others.


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## Twwly (Jan 30, 2007)

I don't think there's a GD book out there that would tell you to let your 14 month old (or child of any age) run out into the street and see what the consequence is for themselves. When things are dangerous, you make that very clear, but in a way that is age appropriate and respectful of your kid.

I would do a bit more reading, so you come to a better understanding of what GD entails and reevaluate whether or not it feels right to you from there.

I liked the LLL's Gentle Parenting Book, Naomi Drew's Peaceful Parents, Peaceful Kids and Faber & Mawlish's How to Talk So Kids Will Listen.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

You know, I read both of those books and didn't actually find that I got much in the way of practical ideas from them. I got a lot of great ideas and food for thought from them, however.

I actually think that _Connection Parenting_ had a lot more in the way of practical ideas. This one was like, ideas from all of my favorite gentle parenting books all rolled into one with some very good practical advice for dealing with things as they're happening.

Of course GD doesn't mean you won't grab your toddler to keep them from running into the street. I know sometimes when you're new to it, it can sound overly permissive. And, too, there's such a big spectrum of approaches that falls under the umbrella term of gentle discipline and not all of them work for every family.

I think that with the whole muddy shoes thing, yeah I'd like some help from my 5 year old. And you know what? Before they turn 5 you have years worth of modeling and guidance which lay a foundation for getting that help when they are 5. So reminding them to take their muddy shoes off when they're 2 and 3 and 4 creates a routine, so that by the time they're 5 they know where to take off the muddy shoes. And inviting them at ages 2, 3, 4 to help clean up the muddy shoes accidents, showing appreciation for their help, and making wiping up messes just what we do when there's a mess leads to a child who, at age 5, is probably going to help you wipe up the mud when you ask.

I think you can definitely guide without being overly controlling, and without letting them just do whatever they want without regard to everyone else in the family. How exactly that will work in your family is something you'll figure out through trial and error.

If you have more question, or more specific questions, ask away. The moms here have great ideas, and I've learned a lot from them.


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## LianneM (May 26, 2004)

I haven't read that book, so I can't comment on that, but I can talk about GD and UP. BTW I think the 2nd half of the dvd will help explain some more.

I very much practice GD, I believe, and I am not permissive at all. The things that I feel set my parenting apart from those who do not practice GD, are below, but not limited to:

*I respect myself as the parent.* I have a lot of responsibility and a lot of power as his parent, and I can use that power to make our lives happy or to make us both miserable. I choose happy. That doesn't mean he gets everything he wants when he wants it, and it doesn't mean I do either. We are a team, we work together, cooperate.

*I respect my son as a person* - he doesn't have the experience I have, so I have to explain things to him ALL.THE.TIME.







It's not about reasoning, he doesn't get it right then, but I think it's respectful to at least try to explain what you are doing at some point (maybe not in the moment).

Of course you don't let your baby run in the street. You hold him if you have to, to keep him safe. He may cry. You can have empathy in the moment by saying, "I know, you just want to run!" and you can say, "It's not safe to run in the street, but we can run over here," and provide an alternative. If you're out somewhere, you have to just hold him. It's a stage and it gets better, I promise. But there's a difference between keeping your child safe even though they are unhappy about it, and just yelling or hitting as if that is the only way to teach them about safety. That is the difference for GD, I think.

The muddy shoes example, I don't know, seems kind of unrealistic, but maybe b/c I don't have a child who can play outside alone yet. If we were outside in the mud, part of our transition to going inside would include how we need to take off muddy shoes/clothes so we don't get mud in the house. So the mess is prevented. A child who is old enough to be outside, get muddy, come in, make a mess without being noticed - I would think that child would, first, know better, and second, be able to help clean up. Maybe if you could share another example of a situation you have a hard time imagining I could help more.

We all have to do things we don't want to do sometimes. It doesn't mean it has to be a miserable experience. I try hard to help my son understand as much as I can, and feel validated when he's still upset that we have to do whatever we have to do.

HTH some - I have to run but will come back to the thread. I love this stuff, I love GD, I love how I feel as a parent when I keep it together and we move through our day peacefully. I'm not perfect and every day is not perfect (I lost it today actually, for about 30 seconds, but we both got ourselves back together quickly b/c that is how this works - I apologized and we moved on.)

I would also recommend the site Consciously Parenting for articles and info


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## Snuzzmom (Feb 6, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg* 
I actually think that _Connection Parenting_ had a lot more in the way of practical ideas. This one was like, ideas from all of my favorite gentle parenting books all rolled into one with some very good practical advice for dealing with things as they're happening.

Agreed. I loved Alfie, but 3/4 of _Unconditional Parenting_ is him making his case, and then the last 1/4 doesn't really give many real-life scenarios.


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## laoxinat (Sep 17, 2007)

Hi Tonya!

I completely understand where you are coming from! GD and especially consensual living, which is Naomi's philosophy, can seem so utterly alien. Part of what blocks us as parents from feeling comfortable with this philosophy is that most of us have unconsciously internalized the messages we got from childhood- that wanting is bad, that WE are bad if we disobeyed, that everything has to be win/lose, etc. So we have to begin to really question the beliefs that we become aware of during the course of our interactions with our kids.
For the 14 m o running into the street, yes, that's exactly what we do. We acknowledge their desire, and state the obvious, "but I can't let you do that" And of course, we physically restrain them from running into the street. We just do it very matter-of-factly and don't get mad at them for being a normal kid. If they keep screaming/tantrumming, we simply continue to acknowledge their desire and their feelings, avoid the words no and can't, and move on. The less emotional energy we give it, the sooner it will blow over. When the behavior is particularly persistent, this is a clue we are having an unconscious reaction that we need to bring into our conscious awareness. Most importantly, we do not take the child's behavior personally nor do we expect small children to be logical. I liken this to trying to teach a pig to sing- it's rarely successful and it REALLY pisses off the pig







.
Muddy shoes- In consensual living philosophy, there is an assumption that people are naturally pro-social and that they want belonging. But when kiddos are little and not-so-logical, and more importantly, truly unable to comprehend the viewpoint of another person, no amount of reasoning or being right (as a parent) will make them miraculously "grow up" or see that their actions are inconveniencing us. So when they are little, we own our own wants by acknowledging that it is we who want the house to be clean, and since you cannot MAKE a child understand they have responsibility, instead of trying to force them, we model the value we wish to teach. After all, if *we* are not willing to clean something up, why should they be? Keeping in mind their limited ablity to process logically, of course.
I know what you mean about it sounding like we just let them run wild. Nothing could be further from the truth. We just learn to gain cooperation in a way that doesn't undermine a child's self worth, and that promotes his/her sense of self efficacy, or ownership of his/her outcomes. IOWs, we try not to muddy the waters with issues that the child can't really comprehend anyway. Again, we might be able to force a child to clean up, but this will come at a big big price. They will resent you and rebel. It doesn't really matter (in their mind) whose responsibility it is until their brains have developed sufficiently to be able to have empathy and a desire to help.
IME, when I cheerfully maintain our living space, I am giving this as a gift to myself and to my family. This models that cleaning up is not a bad thing. When we fight and argue and try to force, what other conclusion can a child come to, but that cleaning is an odious task to be avoided? I never forced my children to clean. The really cool thing is that now when I cheerfully clean and pick up, my DD (who is 16) almost always asks how she can help.
When kids are that little, it can feel like they will NEVER be responsible. But if we take the longer view, we realize that learning is a process, and we can do it the hard way, i.e. 'my way or else' or we can trust in our children's ability to learn, and go with their flow, not against it. They DO grow up. And the sooner WE grow up, i.e. own our own feelings, and responsibilities, the sooner we can stop the fighting and start living.
I also highly recommend reading Byron Katie's Loving What Is. It is what ROC/RO is based upon, and it fills in a LOT of what is kind of missing from Naomi's book.
HTHs!


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

There are different degrees of GD. There are those who are very permissive to the point of letting children leave the house a mess because they want to and pretty much do whatever they want because they want to (Alfie Kohn followers) though most tend to draw the line at hurting each another person, and then there are some who tend to follow Dr. Sear's type of techniques, attachment parenting with a lot of structure, rules, and consequences, and then there are people who fall somewhere inbetween.

For me, gentle discipline has been more of a process that I fell into. I started out by reading Dr. Sear's and then I moved away from that because it was to harsh for my daughter. There are many many many books about being a gentle parent so if you don't like Kohn's books then try some others but don't just give it up if you like the overall concept because it is more than what he says it is.


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## Way Up North (Sep 15, 2007)

You might like Barbara Coloroso's "kids are worth it" as it has lots of practical scenarios and helps to understand the difference between being permissive and what she calls backbone parenting.

In our house, we are the parents but we respect our daughter as a person and try, as much as possible to let her express herself, make her own choices etc. We have expectations that are part of being in a family ~helping with household tasks, being kind and thoughtful towards one another etc. We rarely say 'no' and don't punish. But our daughter has boundaries and limits and expectations placed on her that are appropriate to her age and abilities. We also don't use praise/ rewards/ bribes as a tool









Oh! And I would ask you rdh what he means by permissive and what he is so afraid of?! LOL I am sure you will find the path that is right for your family!


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

No one lets 14 month olds run out into the street. Why is this the example always used. Oh yeah, it's a strawman.

I supervised my daughter at that age so she wasn't able to run into the street. No 14-month-old can be trusted near a street without supervision, no matter what the parenting style is. You can spank until the cows come home, and you'll still have to be right by your 14-month-old's side to pick him/her up when he/she goes out toward that street.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

To me GD is all about fairness and logic. I want to be fair. To me, just telling a child to do something with no explanation as to why isn't fair, so I try to explain everything. That way, it MAKES SENSE to them. Even if they protest, I have a reason and the reason is valid. If I cannot come up with a reason for my telling them not to do something, then maybe I shouldn't be telling them not to do it. Also to me it is about having a no hitting and no yelling approach. I agree with everyone that it is different for all families.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Barbara Coloroso has a great story about spanking a child because he ran in the road - so the next time he ran in the road he held his bum.









We practice gentle discipline in our house in the sense that we don't: punish, shame, blame, hit, yell, or assault the dignity of our child any more than we can help it (I have picked him up and belted him into the carseat in the middle of an ice storm, for example







).

We believe in taking the long view in some ways - that we hope to raise a child who has been raised in love and with respect for him, in a home where we all work together to do chores and live in relative harmony. But we also believe in taking the short view in others - we don't think that if he "gets away" with not cleaning up today that this means he'll be a disrespectful adult.

We also believe he will learn a lot about life from how WE behave - are we disciplined, calm, respectful, kind, truthful, etc. More than what we TELL him to do.

My DH and I especially try to be aware of his developmental stage. He's 2.5, and that probably means a few tantrums. We simply don't treat them as "bad" or "defiance" or "something to be nipped in the bud," because we see them as a reality of where he is (his emotions are overwhelming, his capacity to communicate ESPECIALLY when upset is low in comparison).

For me that's what gentle discipline is, at its foundation. Respecting our child for who he is, where he is. Not doing anything that fails to leave everyone's dignity intact.

After that I think how you get there is largely a matter of family style. I could not go entirely CL I don't think, just because I _personally_ could not spend all that time negotiating and processing. But it is funny that as I ease up on some areas of control, a lot of other ones seem to come with it. My son is a lad of strong tastes and preferences, but also a jolly soul who makes it kind of easy to go that way. If we have another one we will see where we get.









I honestly think one of the best gateway books to GD is "How to talk so kids will listen..." and the book it's based on, Parent Effectiveness Training. Those books don't give up parental control so they're mild forms of the drug







but they really are kind of cool.


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## Breeder (May 28, 2006)

You can set firm boundaries while being fair, not yelling, not hitting and not shaming, that's what GD is for me.

As the parent I set boundaries for my child to keep him safe and to teach him how to be a respectful, responsible person. He's been able to help clean up his messes since he was 1 year old and does so without asking at five.

GD doesn't have to be permissive. In fact I think being overly permissive is actually No D.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg* 
You know, I read both of those books and didn't actually find that I got much in the way of practical ideas from them. I got a lot of great ideas and food for thought from them, however.









: They're really good about the theory, but really short on specifics. They're good for talking you into why GD is good or why you should keep doing it, but they aren't going to help you in the trenches.

The bottom line of GD for me is:
Discipline = teaching
Discipline is based on love and respect.
Discipline is guidance, not punishment.

Now, I'll confess that I stray from these ideals sometimes, especially when my own battery has run low. But, these are the principles that guide me.

HOW I implement things depends on my child, their age and the situation.

For a 14 month old running in the street, I would:
Prevent -- stay away from playing in places where he could easily get to the street; have him walk on the inside of the sidewalk while I walked on the outside.
Redirect -- get him interested in things that are away from the street.
Tell him what to do - explain the rules in terms of what you expect ("we walk on the side walk").
Remove him -- if the lure of the street is too much, then I'd go inside.

this is a list of strategies that I got by reading a lot of parenting books (it's a hobby of mine), and by reading on line. It's not foolproof, and obviously I need to do different things now that my kids are 3 and 6.

But don't throw the baby out with the bath water -- do a lot of exploring before you reject the whole concept.

Oh, and FWIW my husband and I had some good discussions about Unconditional Parenting - he wasn't swayed. The ironic thing is that he's probably a lot closer to UP than I am naturally! But what the discussion did do was help us take our values and ideas about parenting out and critically examine them. That's worth doing every once in a while.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I was raised with spanking and other punishments, and I don't want my parenting to look like that.

I had to think about what I did want it to look like. I want to make sure that my son is first of all SAFE, that his behavior doesn't hurt him or other people. Then secondly, I'd like him to be kind and polite and to learn about other things that I value. I don't want to coerce him or force him into good behavior, because that won't make him a good person when he's grown. So discipline means leading and teaching, not punishing.

That means constant supervision and anticipating his needs. At the age your child is, it's so intense!

I want to be a resource for my child in the future, someone he can turn to and get help when he needs it and someone he can learn from. I can't teach him by forcing him to do things if I want that. I have to teach him by--teaching him! Can't skip a step, and can't get impatient. I feel like the non-gentle models of showing the child who's boss or something of that nature, skip over all the learning that the kid needs to do to be a good person later in life.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

I don't see Kohn's Unconditional Parenting as being about consensual living. It's about not using rewards or punishment to get your kids to behave the way you want them to. I haven't read Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves, so I can't say anything about that, but Unconditional Parenting doesn't say you should let your kids do whatever they want with no guidance. It doesn't say you can't have rules, or that you can't tell your kids what to do or what not to do.

I'm all for UP, but I wouldn't have any problem telling my kids they couldn't walk through the house in muddy shoes. However, if they went ahead and did it anyway, I wouldn't feel I needed to come up with any consequence (other than just explaining why I didn't want mud all over the house.) I wouldn't judge my kids as "good" or "bad", or give them the impression that I loved them more or less, based on whether or not they did things like tracking mud all over the house when I had asked them not to. And I wouldn't make a big deal out of the fact that they had "disobeyed" me. If that all sounds too permissive to you, UP may not be for you, but I wouldn't want anyone to reject it based on the mistaken idea that it's the same thing as consensual living.


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## TonyaW (Dec 5, 2006)

I'm the OP and finished the Unconditional Parenting DVD last night. It finally made sense after I got past the first 40 minutes and I really enjoyed it. It really made a lot of sense and my husband even liked the DVD. I still need to get concrete ideas, because I could see how someone could take the info and be too permissive even though that is not what the man was saying. I look forward to learning more and appreciate all the info has given me so far.


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## mamahart (Sep 25, 2007)

My recent observation of my own parenting has been that over the past 11







years my parenting has naturally become gentler and gentler...and since I have been on this forum I have been asking everyone in my family to be more aware of language and actions. My three yr old makes me crazy crazy sometimes, but seeing my 11 yr old responsible and respectful child helps me remember the end result. I think what I am trying to say is that, like most things, there is a natural progression when our intention is to parent well. I also feel like I have a walking talking conscience because my 11 DD constantly uses such GD tactics and language with the boy and is appropriately horrified if we stray from peaceful parenting. It doesnt feel natural all the time but it feels right.


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## sophiesue2 (Jan 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
I don't see Kohn's Unconditional Parenting as being about consensual living. It's about not using rewards or punishment to get your kids to behave the way you want them to.

I agree with this! I think P.E.T. is a better resource for consensual living.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sophiesue2* 
I agree with this! I think P.E.T. is a better resource for consensual living.


Or the CL website: http://www.consensual-living.com/









Or yahoogroup: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consensual-living/ (over 650 families choosing to live consensually. Most with 2,3,4 children. And Kathleen with NINE kids!!)

Or the CL tribe: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=493985

Pat


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

For concrete ideas for discipline with younger kids, I loved Becoming the Parent You Want to Be. They have a lot of ideas that can be used with UP.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg* 
I actually think that _Connection Parenting_ had a lot more in the way of practical ideas. This one was like, ideas from all of my favorite gentle parenting books all rolled into one with some very good practical advice for dealing with things as they're happening.


I also read the 2 books the OP mentioned and my fav book for GD is Connection Parenting, I think especially for someone who GD does not feel as natural for that starting of with Unconditional Parenting or Raising Ourselves, Raising our Children can feel incredibly permissive. Connection Parenting is the only book I could convince my dh to read, I think its a good place to start and then branch out.

Shay


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## MtBikeLover (Jun 30, 2005)

Another suggestion for concrete ideas is "How to Talk so Kids will Listen" - it has lots and lots of examples.

Or come on here and post an exact situation and you will get great advice!

As far as permissive, I see GD as being far from permissive and taking a lot more work than punishment. To me, GD is all about teaching and guiding our children so that they are able to make the right decisions when we aren't there. That takes a lot of work (and patience!).

In the example you gave about a 14 month old in the street, when my DD was 14 months old and started running in the street, rather than pick her up and spank her or take her inside, I ran to her, explained that she could not go in the street by herself because she could get hurt, pointed out cars going by and how dangerous they were, and then proceeded to teach her how to cross a street - get mommy or daddy's hand, look both ways, and then cross the street. We practiced this over and over (she wanted to - we didn't make her) and anytime we went outside, we reiterated the rule - If you want to cross the street, you have to do it the right way and went through the way to cross. So, we did not forbid her crossing the street, but we taught her how to do it. The street is not off limits, but she does have to follow the rules if she wants to go across it. Now, if she refuses to do it the right way, then we go somewhere else to play or we go inside. but honestly, I have never had any problems with my kids not crossing the right way. We live on a corner and I have been able to let my kids play in the front since they were 2 with no issues of them running in the street. I can even make a quick run to the backyard or in the house to get something and know that they won't go in the street.

On the muddy shoes, we don't allow shoes in our house. It has been established since early on so the kids don't know any different. We walk in, we sit down on the step and remove our shoes. Every once in awhile, they forget and I simply say "Shoes" or "Don't forget to take your shoes off" and they immediately take them off. I don't threaten or demean or punish - just simply remind them. I have never had this happen, but if they refused to take off their shoes and they were making a big mess, then I might say "I am not happy that the floors are getting dirty. I need you to take your shoes off. Do you need me to help you?" if they still refused then I might say "You can take your shoes off or I can take them off for you. You choose."


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## GradysMom (Jan 7, 2007)

they make decisions (like the muddy shoe thing) at age appropriate times, when you know your child can navigate the scope of the decision. Until then mother/father firmly insists muddy shoes come off.

First we show expectations, help them make decisions and then slowly, over the course of 18 years turn those decisions over to them.

My son is only 18 mo but I can say I have given him too much control over decisions like following mommy and have gotten what we call "bad decisions" from Ds

I'm learning to take his hand for example and say mommy is gonna help you make a good decision and get you off the table...

Keep reading and exploring this question....

I think you have to ask yourself does striking a child effectively communicate the situation or guide and teach them why the road is dangerous?

For me GD is about not striking... and as I learn and grow it is about respectful word choices and communication. Not coersion and shaming


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## OGirlieMama (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
There are different degrees of GD. There are those who are very permissive to the point of letting children leave the house a mess because they want to and pretty much do whatever they want because they want to (Alfie Kohn followers) though most tend to draw the line at hurting each another person...

I don't know if I would call myself a Kohn "follower" but I do believe in a lot of what he wrote. And nowhere have I gotten the idea that I should just let them do whtever they want because they want to do it, and that the only line to be drawn is "no hurting people." If you've read his work and that's what you got out of it, perhaps I need to go back and re-read it myself.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I read Unconditional Parenting once and that was way to much for me. I actually didn't get any sense of boundary at all from his book on hurting people, that came from a friend of mine who uses his ideas, he didn't seem to draw any lines at all and that really put me off. I found his book to be very critical of anyone who actually does put boundaries up for children in any way and he seemed to be saying that we should not require children to do anything that the child doesn't want to do. You can take boundaries and rules to far and that is something as a parent I try to be careful about but I think he is to far the other way for me and I find his books to be a waste of paper. I am glad that you have found him useful though, to each their own.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Tonya, try http://kidsareworthit.com/page-not-f...:80/about.html

This is a GD method that is NOT permissive in any way. Example.....

Child didn't do something that's required of him/her like homework.
Child: "Mooooommmmmmmmm, I want to go outside and play."
Mother: "Ofcourse, you may go out as soon as you have finished your homework."
then repeat ad nauseum.

She has videos and books that all give play by play examples.


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## TonyaW (Dec 5, 2006)

I do like Kohn's ideas but didn't sense boundaries either. However, how do I not praise my kid? He is 14 months and learning to talk and I say, "wow, you said that well or good, that's right" I do say good job too, but could probably eliminate that. I don't understand how to encourage him exactly.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Praising a 14 month old for saying something well is really not the kind of praise Kohn is most concerned with. Go ahead and do it if you feel like it! But you might want to think a bit about why you want to. It's not like kids need encouragement to learn to talk. Do you want to him to feel like you're always noticing everything he does and judging whether it's "good" or not? I personally don't want my kids to feel like that, and that's one reason I try not to comment much about how well they've done something. Unless they get all happy and proud about it on their own first - then I generally join in and agree with them that whatever they did was very cool.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

I think it's about combining balance and common sense along with a gentle heart. You set age-appropriate expectations and you obviously care about safety. But, you also give the child the freedom to try things and express themselves, and you talk to them calmly and with compassion.

I think you may be over thinking it a bit, because in reality it's not all that hard to do!







Give it a try and see how it feels and come back if you're finding situations or obstacles in what you're thinking and reacting to. Don't be a perfectionist, go with your heart and handle things in ways that you know are kind and compassionate. There's not just one perfect way to respond to every behavior.

Enjoy it, enjoy parenting, have fun and good luck!


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## LittleMe (Oct 31, 2007)

I 2nd (or 3rd) the Barbara Coloroso recommendation. Also - Hold Onto Your Kids for GD/attachement parenting that is not necessarily consensual living oriented. I'm not discouraging/bashing CL - I just don't think being GD and CL are the same thing. I think Consensual Living would include Gentle Discpline, but you can discipline gently/respectfully even if you tend towards a more traditional parental role.


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LittleMe* 
I'm not discouraging/bashing CL - I just don't think being GD and CL are the same thing. I think Consensual Living would include Gentle Discpline, but you can discipline gently/respectfully even if you tend towards a more traditional parental role.

That' me, too.

I think there's a lot of confusion between CL and GD. they are certainly not mutually exclusive but they're not always the same, either. I'm GD but would never say I'm CL, though I've enjoyed learning about it on this board.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OGirlieMama* 
I don't know if I would call myself a Kohn "follower" but I do believe in a lot of what he wrote. And nowhere have I gotten the idea that I should just let them do whtever they want because they want to do it, and that the only line to be drawn is "no hurting people."

I didn't get that from his book either. Well, perhaps the first time I read it. But the second time I read it, it was quite clear to me that he wasn't permissive, and wasn't even CL.
A few examples, in one he talks about his dd not wanting to get in the car (I think. Leaving a store or something). He physically makes her. He writes about needing to give her more control over something else, because she wasn't able to control that situation. He lets her sit in the car and listen to music, which he says is something he would not normally allow.

In another, he talks about something similar to the "disengaging" strategy of Secret of Parenting. Kid wants a cookie, you've said no, the conversation isn't going anywhere, and neither person is changing their mind. He says to just stop responding to any cookie related questions/requests/etc.


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## tubulidentata2 (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TonyaW* 
For example, in the book she mentions that if the child comes in with muddy feet you just say, oh your shoes are muddy lets take them off. Then we let the child decide if they want to help clean up. I understand that a smaller child just won't get it but don't see anything wrong with asking them to help me and showing them. At this age, I wouldn't expect my son to really do much but if he was 5, I would expect him to clean it up.

Can't read the entire thread right now, but I have been following this idea with my 21 month-old for a few months now. To my astonishment, she is now more insistent about cleaning than I am. I never ask her to help me, but I model that we clean up after spilling water, throwing beans, etc. She *always* wants to clean up after we do things like that, even when I want to be lazy







. I am sure that she will probably go through a phase of not helping, but I believe she will come back to it again.


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

Hi Tonya! I was really interested to read your thread and the subsequent responses. I, too, have been investigating methodologies and philosophies, since dd was born. I think it's important to acknowledge and honor yourself for even being willing to take a look into other approaches...

Why did you begin that investigation?

So, here are some things I thought of as I read...
1st, I noticed you used the word permissive a number of times... what is your definition of permissive? (I don't mean the actual definition, I mean, What does it look like, feel like, to you?) And why does it have a negative aura? Meaning, what is your value estimation of Permission? Is it a bad thing? Why?

Next:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TonyaW* 
<snip>... At this age, I wouldn't expect my son to really do much but if he was 5, I would expect him to clean it up.

What about age 3? Age 2? At what point do you think you may feel comfortable voicing your expectations, or allowing him to be accountable?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TonyaW* 
How do you practice unconditional parenting with a child who can't even reason. I feel like I am supposed to let my child do what he wants without any direction or guidance for fear of controlling him.

I totally know where you're coming from! Dd was able to nimbly sprint and dodge by 9 mo... there is no reasoning with a 9 mo holding your cell phone hostage over the toilet... "Another step, Mom, and the phone goes flushy..." (I _know_ that's what she was thinking!)







That was a moment where disengaging was vital... if I'm not there to be part of the power struggle, then there isn't one... I hid around the corner out of sight from the toilet and when she came looking for me, I grabbed the phone with a stern "No." Then, laughing, swung her up into my arms and gave her a raspberry.... None of which is coercive or controlling in the slightest, in my estimation.

My take is that boundaries are important. Alfie Kohn or no, boundaries are important in all relationships, including the ones we have with our children. There's no way I'd let someone hold my phone over the toilet and threaten me, even if it IS in play... and it's a matter of applying the right approach to the situation. If dh were doing it







I'd likely walk away. Much the way I did with 9mo dd. It's a matter of looking at each scenario with fresh perspective. Your OWN perspective. Books and methodologies are timely and valuable, but not gospel. You get to take what works for your fam and leave the rest. It's important to understand your own boundaries, your motivations, your priorities, as you read and learn about new approaches.

Unconditional parenting is (again, in my view) more about acually _being_ unconditional, than it is about a prescription for how to parent... meaning we don't set conditions on our relationship. We work at all times to improve the relationship, to build bridges, to strenghten the foundation of the relationship. When we mess up, we are accountable for it. I have lost my temper with dd, and I am quick to recover (after I cool off in the Listening Spot) with love, an apology and a plan to prevent that happening agian. Children can view punishments and intensity, yelling, etc as 'love loss'... like now that Mom's mad at me, she doesn't love me. And in a way, in that moment, we don't. Before y'all







me, see it out... The human brain can only hold one thought at a time... we can't feel, be, and think "I'm scared" while feeling, being, and thinking "I'm happy"... likewise, we can't be full of love with all of its component understanding and support, at the same moment we're holding irritation, impatience, anger, etc. But we can self-regulate and self-correct anytime... and so can our children, if we show them what it looks like.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Twwly* 
I don't think there's a GD book out there that would tell you to let your 14 month old (or child of any age) run out into the street and see what the consequence is for themselves. When things are dangerous, you make that very clear, but in a way that is age appropriate and respectful of your kid.

I would do a bit more reading, so you come to a better understanding of what GD entails and reevaluate whether or not it feels right to you from there.

I liked the LLL's Gentle Parenting Book, Naomi Drew's Peaceful Parents, Peaceful Kids and Faber & Mawlish's How to Talk So Kids Will Listen.

Faber and Mazlish's Book is AWESOME... Here's a link to their website, which has tons of links to educationaly tools and workshops, etc.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TonyaW* 
I do like Kohn's ideas but didn't sense boundaries either. However, how do I not praise my kid? He is 14 months and learning to talk and I say, "wow, you said that well or good, that's right" I do say good job too, but could probably eliminate that. I don't understand how to encourage him exactly.

Try just observing what you're seeing, or see your encouragement more like joining him in celebrating his victories. The no-praise piece is really more about avoiding blind praise. "That was a BIG word!" or "I didn't know you could say that!" or "Your words are getting so clear!"

The thing that unnerves me somewhat about all these discussions (esp when they revolve around books by 'experts' and such) is that we all clamor to regale the wisdom of other people, but often don't honor our own innate wisdom.

I'm presuming, Tonya, that _something_ lead you to examine parenting from different angles. Something inside you said "I want to be the best parent I can. So I am going to get educated." That is so huge. It's a start. Look more closely at the pieces that _speak_ to you. Don't get too caught up in trying to fully grasp every nuance in someone else's prescription for what best-odds-awesome-parenting _might_ look like.

Gentle Discipline is just that... Gentle _teaching_. Guidence, awarenss, patience, understanding, observation, support, and (_I_ think) healthy boundaries... without barbaric forces. It's about approaching the relationships we have with our children in a manner that does not involve hitting, screaming, shaming, or manipulation. An agreement we have with ourselves that we will self-correct when we mess up, we will always endeavor to be peaceful, we will teach justice (screw fairness, let's call it what it is... JUSTICE), and we will celebrate victories _with_ our children and support them _unconditionally_ as they struggle to climb the developmental ladder.

Best wishes on your journey, sista... I hope that helped some.


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## Attached Mama (Dec 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TonyaW* 
I do like Kohn's ideas but didn't sense boundaries either. However, how do I not praise my kid? He is 14 months and learning to talk and I say, "wow, you said that well or good, that's right" I do say good job too, but could probably eliminate that. I don't understand how to encourage him exactly.

That's one of my biggest problems with Kohn. He is unrealistic at times. I think he's responding to the pendulum being at the side of parents being very judgmental by swinging to the opposite extreme where parents are never supposed to make any judgment calls. And he defines praise as a judgment of what someone has done - a positive one in some ways, but negative still because it's a judgment. I just don't agree with that.

Now I understand the problem with excessive praise - praising a kid for everything, not meaning half of what you are saying but only saying it out of habit, giving stickers to everyone not just a winner etc.

But by not giving praise, your silence or neutral response is still casting it's own judgment. For example, if you get your hair cut drastically and come visit me your friend and I don't say anything at all, how would you feel? Would you feel that I simply don't want to make a judgment about you because I'm a neutral party? Or would you assume that I didn't like it or didn't even notice somehow? My point is, that there is a time and place for praise.

And what if words of affirmation happen to be your child's love language? I love the books on love languages. (Not saying I agree with every bit of everything in them, but the premise is wonderful and what bits of them I've read is great). Basically, everyone "speaks" a primary love language (or combination of them).

Words of affirmation -telling them how much you love them, appreciate them, complimenting them, praise

Quality time together - doesn't need much explanation...

Gifts - not nec spending money, but picking flowers, bringing a kid's fave snack with you when you go out, finding a beautiful rock for a surprise for them, writing your spouse a love note etc

Physical affection - hugs, kisses, holding a kid, ....

Often we show love in the ways that make us feel most loved - and then you have a wife mad because her husband isn't spending quality time with her when the husband thinks he's fine 'cause he's being physically affectionate. And the husband can't understand why the wife won't be more physically affectionate and is nagging him to spend time with her doing stuff all the time.

You have to speak your kid's love language. I worry that Kohn turns people off to words of affirmation towards their children. And bottom line - I sure do want to give my kid my values in some areas and think that making judgment calls about certain things is my responsibility.

That being said, Kohn does have a lot of great stuff too.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Attached Mama* 
But by not giving praise, your silence or neutral response is still casting it's own judgment. For example, if you get your hair cut drastically and come visit me your friend and I don't say anything at all, how would you feel?

This is a good point. But how people feel about a neutral or absent response depends a lot on the expectations they've formed about when other people are likely to be making judgments. Yeah, it might kind of bother me if my friend didn't say anything about my haircut - but only because I know people in our society generally notice and make judgments about other people's hairstyles. If my circle of friends consisted only of people who just didn't care a bit about superficial things like hairstyles, I would think that was really cool, and I wouldn't miss getting comments about my hair at all. I hope that if I don't teach my kids to expect me to be judging everything they do, they'll be able to relax and not worry too much about what I think of them, in the same way I'd be able to relax more around friends who I knew didn't care about my hair.


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## laoxinat (Sep 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Attached Mama* 
your silence or neutral response is still casting it's own judgment.

Neutrality is by its very definition non-judgmental. The only judgment that can result from silence is the one the listener invents. Okay, so I'm *splitting hairs*







, and it's JMO.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
Yeah, it might kind of bother me if my friend didn't say anything about my haircut - but only because I know people in our society generally notice and make judgments about other people's hairstyles. If my circle of friends consisted only of people who just didn't care a bit about superficial things like hairstyles, I would think that was really cool, and I wouldn't miss getting comments about my hair at all.

In such a circle (or more widely, such a society) why would you bother getting haircuts at all then? or rather, why would you bother having a *hairstyle?* You'd cut your hair to keep it out of your eyes, but why bother doing much of anything else?

And if you say, well that's fine - what else wouldn't you do, if people didn't notice? Why produce art? Why decorate one's body or clothing?

The thing is, human beings live in groups, and in the groups, we produce things, and create things, and adorn ourselves -- for other people as much as for ourselves - so much of what we do is done to send a message about ourselves to others.. Yes, you can say we do it for ourselves, but no human act can ever exist in a humanity-free vaccuum.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Not giving praise doesn't mean not saying anything or being neutral. It means, instead of saying, "Good haircut!" you might say, "I see you got your hair cut! Where do you go? I've been needing to find someone new to cut my hair." It's about not giving a string of non-informative praise that people sometimes use as an attempt to change behavior - the opposite of punishment. There are plenty of things other than "good job" you can say that give information and show genuine joy and appreciation.


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## WhaleinGaloshes (Oct 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Attached Mama* 
But by not giving praise, your silence or neutral response is still casting it's own judgment. For example, if you get your hair cut drastically and come visit me your friend and I don't say anything at all, how would you feel? Would you feel that I simply don't want to make a judgment about you because I'm a neutral party? Or would you assume that I didn't like it or didn't even notice somehow?

Kohn specifically suggests *noticing* as an 'alternative' to praise. IMO, he's not at all about staying silent, or not noticing, or withholding affirmation, he's about giving affirmation unconditionally and avoiding evaluation. I've had great fun and positive expierences with my DD and the advice to "just notice"...I find she is as pleased, encouraged and excited if I say upon noticing she's finished a puzzle or something "hey, look at that, you finished the puzzle" without any "good job" or "that's great" or claps and cheers.

To me, avoiding evaluative praise is not at all about suppressing enthusiasm. In _How to Talk..._, the suggestion is made to describe what you see and describe how you feel, which is what I try to do in place of evaluating.

In the haircut example, I agree with "oh, you got a haircut!" as a way to notice it without evaluation (and this makes more sense with a kid than with an adult, to me.) The shift in language could also be as subtle as "I like your haircut, I'd like a cut like that for me" instead of "that's a nice haircut." The former describes how I feel and the latter expresses an evaluation of the haircut. It's subtle, but I think with kids these shades of differences can matter.


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## WhaleinGaloshes (Oct 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TonyaW* 
I do like Kohn's ideas but didn't sense boundaries either. However, how do I not praise my kid? He is 14 months and learning to talk and I say, "wow, you said that well or good, that's right" I do say good job too, but could probably eliminate that. I don't understand how to encourage him exactly.

Specifically on ecouraging talking, I find the best encouragement has been answering back, letting her know I heard and understood her. You know how the little face just lights up when they struggle to get it out and then you say "oh you want a *cracker*! Oh, okay, let's go get one." It's such a thrill that mama knew what you said







And you get your cracker, too!


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

For me, it is important that I don't try and fit my parenting approach within a particular slot, be it GD, CL, traditional or whatever else, just for the sake of adherence. Rather, I like to combine particular ideas from these approaches with my own intuition, knowledge and understanding of my family unit. Keeping core values of love, mutual respect and growth as the fundamentals, I work with whatever best suits my family's requirements. Parenting can be high pressure already. I don't need to add to it by worrying if I am doing what the 'experts' 'tell' me to do.


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## laoxinat (Sep 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DariusMom* 
That' me, too.

I think there's a lot of confusion between CL and GD. they are certainly not mutually exclusive but they're not always the same, either.

Pat (WuWei) is a CL afficionado extraordinaire! If you are interested in the distinctions, she can point you toward tons of resources. Just find one of her posts and PM her. She's always glad to help!


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## dillonandmarasmom (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg* 
You know, I read both of those books and didn't actually find that I got much in the way of practical ideas from them. I got a lot of great ideas and food for thought from them, however.

I actually think that _Connection Parenting_ had a lot more in the way of practical ideas. This one was like, ideas from all of my favorite gentle parenting books all rolled into one with some very good practical advice for dealing with things as they're happening.

Of course GD doesn't mean you won't grab your toddler to keep them from running into the street. I know sometimes when you're new to it, it can sound overly permissive. And, too, there's such a big spectrum of approaches that falls under the umbrella term of gentle discipline and not all of them work for every family.

I think that with the whole muddy shoes thing, yeah I'd like some help from my 5 year old. And you know what? Before they turn 5 you have years worth of modeling and guidance which lay a foundation for getting that help when they are 5. So reminding them to take their muddy shoes off when they're 2 and 3 and 4 creates a routine, so that by the time they're 5 they know where to take off the muddy shoes. And inviting them at ages 2, 3, 4 to help clean up the muddy shoes accidents, showing appreciation for their help, and making wiping up messes just what we do when there's a mess leads to a child who, at age 5, is probably going to help you wipe up the mud when you ask.

I think you can definitely guide without being overly controlling, and without letting them just do whatever they want without regard to everyone else in the family. How exactly that will work in your family is something you'll figure out through trial and error.

If you have more question, or more specific questions, ask away. The moms here have great ideas, and I've learned a lot from them.


I totally agree with Sledg. I have grabbed DD several times to prevent her from running into a street or out in front of cars in a parking lot. The most logical consequence was to grab her and show her the fear and shock on my face. She knew it wasn't safe.
As for the muddy shoes, we have practiced this from the get-go. All kids and adults who enter our house remove muddy/wet shoes. It's because we don't want to tromp icky germs and dirt all over the floor, our toys, our things...If they don't, DS or DD will promptly remind them.

I know what you mean by feeling permissive or not feeling right. It can be soooo hard to hold your almost 5 year old and listen to them yell at you, call you "stupid" and "idiot" repeatedly, and kick/flail in anger. But when they calm down and hug you back, it feels good to know you've let them express their emotions. Think of it like a training session, or practice for adulthood when so many of us struggle with our own emotions.

Parenting is hard work








.


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## OGirlieMama (Aug 6, 2006)

Regarding haircuts and people not noticing, yes, I'd be disappointed/think I must look awful if my friends didn't notice and praise my new haircut. Honestly, I'd still be unconvinced if they gave me some sort of neutral comment like "Hey, you got a haircut!" But I was raised with a pretty conventional form of discipline (not un-gentle, most of the time, but conventional). I think my goal regarding UP/GD/My Own Gut Feeling is to raise daughters who can decide for themselves that they like their haircut and that they look good, so that if no one says anything (or heaven forbid, disagrees) they _won't_ be devastated.

Also, instead of "You got your haircut! You look so pretty!" you could try "You got your haircut! It really shows off your eyes." It's not an empty praising comment - it actually shows the person you are really paying attention and noticed something specific. That's why instead of saying "Good job with that puzzle!" I say "You put all the puzzle pieces in without anybody helping you!" And my kids beam. Sure, they'd beam if I said "Good job!" but maybe they'd beam because Mommy's happy, rather than because they realized they did something cool.

One of the proudest (quiet) moments I have had lately was watching a video from my girls' 2nd birthday party. Katie didn't know it, but my Dad was taking video while she was walking on this little balance beam thingie (party was at our gymboree gym) and when she got to the end, she said, out loud, but to no one in particular "I did it!" and beamed, even though no one was there.


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## TonyaW (Dec 5, 2006)

Ok, I have gotten a lot of good information and explanation. It is hard to break the habit of praising my son, but I never did it blindly and insincerely. I truly get excited when he does something new or says a word well. I so want to tell him how good he is doing and say "wow." Yesterday we went for a walk on a trail and he stopped and picked up a rock or a stick or leaf and gave it to me. I always wanted to say thank you or comment on all the cool stuff he was doing. It is really hard for me not to praise even though I understand the concept of not praising blindly or insincerely. Generally I never praise anyone unless I really mean what I am saying. I like some of the examples I have gotten from this thread on how to notice and comment on situations. I could use more of those. Like today, my son helped me carry the laundry basket to the laundry room because I asked him. I really want to say thanks and good job. He will also hand me a piece of clothing one at at time when I am putting the laundry away. It just makes me beam with pride and I want to express it. Whenever he lays on the changing table calmly I always want to tell him he is doing great and that it makes it easier to change him. I want to find the right ways to praise without making him self centered and the right ways to ask him not to do something while not being permissive. I would never want to stand there while my son called me stupid and hit or kicked me. To me it would be permissive to allow that, I would want to walk away and say I love you but I cannot stand here and let you hurt me. So keep the ideas coming, cuz I really need them. Thanks!


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## mowilli3 (Jan 7, 2007)

I think you are on the right track, Mama. If you are proud, you should tell him that you are proud. Tell him when you appreciate something he does.

I read some GD books including unconditional parenting, and I found that DH and I were slow to respond or second-guessing ourselves a lot. We stopped reading and decided to just try to show our kids that we love them and to be honest. We don't spank and we try not to yell. We are proud of them, and we tell them, but we don't "praise the behavior we want to encourage" just for the sake of getting them to do something different. We tell them when they are doing something we don't want them to do like painting the walls. We want them to paint, so we redirect it to paper about 15 times a day.


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## AidynElyMama (Dec 5, 2007)

Haven't quite made it through this whole thread yet, but I just wanted to throw out a thanks. I just got several really good, sound ideas to try out with my son. I was also unsure when I started with GD, but thanks to this forum, I've come a long way. Thanks mamas!


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## OGirlieMama (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TonyaW* 
Ok, I have gotten a lot of good information and explanation. It is hard to break the habit of praising my son, but I never did it blindly and insincerely. I truly get excited when he does something new or says a word well. I so want to tell him how good he is doing and say "wow." Yesterday we went for a walk on a trail and he stopped and picked up a rock or a stick or leaf and gave it to me. I always wanted to say thank you or comment on all the cool stuff he was doing. It is really hard for me not to praise even though I understand the concept of not praising blindly or insincerely. Generally I never praise anyone unless I really mean what I am saying. I like some of the examples I have gotten from this thread on how to notice and comment on situations. I could use more of those. Like today, my son helped me carry the laundry basket to the laundry room because I asked him. I really want to say thanks and good job. He will also hand me a piece of clothing one at at time when I am putting the laundry away. It just makes me beam with pride and I want to express it. Whenever he lays on the changing table calmly I always want to tell him he is doing great and that it makes it easier to change him. I want to find the right ways to praise without making him self centered and the right ways to ask him not to do something while not being permissive. I would never want to stand there while my son called me stupid and hit or kicked me. To me it would be permissive to allow that, I would want to walk away and say I love you but I cannot stand here and let you hurt me. So keep the ideas coming, cuz I really need them. Thanks!

I don't think is any reason to hold back the "thank you" when your son does something to help you! If he carries the laundry basket, he deserves your thanks. Does he necessarily deserve _praise_ for that, I don't know. But an enthusiastic "thanks for helping me" certainly is not manipulative in my book. I thank my kids all the time for stuff like that. When they actually lay down willingly for a diaper change, I do thank them for cooperating, and point out how much easier it is for everyone when we cooperate. I don't know how Alfie Kohn would feel about it, but I think he'd say it's OK (and if not, well, I don't need his praise either!)

And I totally believe most people are sincere when they praise kids. Because it _is_ exciting when you see them doing new things, or improving their skills. But I do believe that the "good job!" gets overdone and ends up just becoming background patter. Now that I am attuned to it, I am overwhelmed by the "good job"bing at places like Gymboree. I swear, my kids were "good job"bed yesterday for: throwing a ball, putting a ball in a basket, climbing up a latter, sliding down a slide, holding onto a piece of rope and walking in a circle. They also got lots of "good communicating!" for telling the teachers things like "Katie go up ramp" and "I want 'nother ball." It just seems meaningless when everything they do is praised with the same words and the level of enthusiasm is the same no matter what the activity.


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## WhaleinGaloshes (Oct 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TonyaW* 
Yesterday we went for a walk on a trail and he stopped and picked up a rock or a stick or leaf and gave it to me. I always wanted to say thank you or comment on all the cool stuff he was doing...

Like today, my son helped me carry the laundry basket to the laundry room because I asked him. I really want to say thanks and good job. He will also hand me a piece of clothing one at at time when I am putting the laundry away. It just makes me beam with pride and I want to express it. Whenever he lays on the changing table calmly I always want to tell him he is doing great and that it makes it easier to change him. I want to find the right ways to praise without making him self centered and the right ways to ask him not to do something while not being permissive...

I would never hold back on saying 'thank you'; I really do think there is a difference between words that evaluate "you're such a good boy" and words that communicate genuine gratitude, appreciation and affection.

I always go back to "describe what you see, describe how you feel." Like "it helps me when you hand me the clothes; look how much faster the job has gone. And it make it more fun, too







. I appreciate it, little peanut. Now we'll have time to [do something fun together.]"

Something like that. To me, it's important not to label and then eschew all positive messages as 'praise'. To me, Kohn and GD aren't about eliminating positivity, enthusiasm or pride, they are about being unconditionally positive, enthusiastic and proud.


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## LianneM (May 26, 2004)

I totally agree with the PPs - Thanking a child is a great thing to do. I would thank an adult if they did something helpful or nice, so of course I would thank my child, let him know I appreciate it, etc. I thank him when he cooperates and mention how smoothly things go when we cooperate with each other. Things like that. Our days are FULL of positive language and compliments toward each other. The difference, for me, is my intent. I do not say things to him in order to get him to repeat or increase a behavior. I am genuine and if I feel like saying, "WOW!" I say it! He recently got a bike and has been practicing around the house and when I notice he's getting faster or able to glide for longer I might say, "WOW you are getting SO FAST on that bike!" and he just BEAMS.

The best thing I have noticed lately is that he has learned how to express genuine feelings back to others. When I compliment him he says, "Hey, thanks mom!" and he means it as much as I meant the compliment. He will come up to me and say something nice out of the blue, or tell me he appreciates ME cooperating with HIM







that one always cracks me up!

I watch my friends with their kids, and some do lots of praise while others don't. I have seen one friend specifically try to praise sharing b/c she really wants her DD to get better about sharing. It doesn't work, and really I do think it makes things worse. That is even a specific example that Kohn describes, the "good sharing" thing.


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Not giving praise doesn't mean not saying anything or being neutral. It means, instead of saying, "Good haircut!" you might say, *"I see you got your hair cut! Where do you go? I've been needing to find someone new to cut my hair."* It's about not giving a string of non-informative praise that people sometimes use as an attempt to change behavior - the opposite of punishment. There are plenty of things other than "good job" you can say that give information and show genuine joy and appreciation.

I loved this!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *easy_goer* 
Specifically on ecouraging talking, I find the best encouragement has been answering back, letting her know I heard and understood her. You know how the little face just lights up when they struggle to get it out and then you say "oh you want a *cracker*! Oh, okay, let's go get one." It's such a thrill that mama knew what you said







And you get your cracker, too!

The answering-back piece is GREAT! When dd was learning to speak (and often, still) I'd answer back, and often, ALSO repeat what she said...
DD: Mama, more noo-noo?
ME: More noodles Mama? Of course! Here you go, and you're welcome!

DD: I'm tired!
ME: You're tired, huh?

Which results in conversations... great ones! Dd is extremely verbal and very articulate in her speech, and I think it's due in some part to the fact that we speak back to her.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TonyaW* 
Ok, I have gotten a lot of good information and explanation. It is hard to break the habit of praising my son, but I never did it blindly and insincerely.<snip>

I try to think of 'blind praise' as prasie or encouragement that could be given with my eyes closed. One and two word exclaimations can be applied to anything, but descriptions of what you observe, even done with no value estimation (like, "Pretty hair!" vs. "I noticed your hair. Where do you get it done?") are specific and engaging; they might have a more profound effect, kwim?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TonyaW* 
<snip>
Generally I never praise anyone unless I really mean what I am saying. I like some of the examples I have gotten from this thread on how to notice and comment on situations. I could use more of those.

See, I'm such a 'high-fiver' with folks... I try to have (this will sound cheesey) an attitude of gratitude. But I always mean it.... I let folks know left and right, all day long when I appreciate their time, their help, their opinions. I thank dh all the time for the little things he does, like bringing home take out when Aunt Flo visits and I'm too tired to cook, etc. I express how grateful I am when dd helps with tasks... ex: She assists in the kitchen now. And the other day I was genuinly impressed with how much faster dinner was prepped than usual. I said, "Dd, that went SO much faster with you helping! Wow! That was the fastest I've ever been able make that! I'm so thankful that you like helping make dinner." Then I gave her big hug and she ran out to dh and announced, "I helped make dinner again, Daddy, and we were SO fast!"

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TonyaW* 
<snip>
I want to find the right ways to praise without making him self centered and the right ways to ask him not to do something while not being permissive. I would never want to stand there while my son called me stupid and hit or kicked me. To me it would be permissive to allow that, I would want to walk away and say I love you but I cannot stand here and let you hurt me. So keep the ideas coming, cuz I really need them. Thanks!

Just being more mindful of what sincere encouragement or gratitude _looks like_, as you are doing now, vs. that eyes close, 'paraphrased' version of praise ("Good!"), is such a big part of finding the 'right' ways to verbalize your joy to your son.

Some of the tips from the Faber Mazlish book that I have found helpful:

Describe what you see: "I see you have discovered something!" when he brings you a treasure like a leaf or twig. When he's older that can segue nicely into "What is this? How did it get here?" etc.
Describe your own feelings: "It is such a joy to watch you grow!" or "I love it when you help!" instead of just "What a big boy!" or "Good helping!"
Sum up the child's praiseworthy behavior with a word (especially valuable while teaching vocabulary, emotional labels, and virtues): "You sorted the shapes. That's what I call _organization!_" or "You are a very hungry person, right now; you're waiting for your dinner, and it's almost ready... that's patience!" or
And last, this exercise helps me, too: try to envision saying to a peer, that which you are about to say to your child... how would the friend react? We wouldn't say "Wow what a big boy!" to a buddy (depends on the buddy!) but we might say: "I sure appreciate your help!"

Hope that helps.


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## tashaharney (Feb 19, 2007)

you've got a great deal of excellent advice from all these wise GD mamas, OP! (i took notes myself, and lots of 'em.) the only thing i have to add is, there are lots and lots of GD methods/styles and lots of GD books. i would recommend that you read as many as you want/can, and then take the parts you like and the parts that work for you and your babe, and leave the rest. your child will show you how to be its mama. all these GD things are, is tools. any different tools can do one job, you'll find the one that works best for you if you are patient and attentive.


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## moodymaximus (Nov 13, 2007)

I think it can get overwhelming and confusing if you try to imagine how your 14 months old will behave and how you will deal with him when he's 5.

i've read dozens of GD books. and it all boils down, for me, to one simple thing, really. there are a couple of guiding principles and they apply to every interraction. one is: does my reaction help us to connect or disconnect? this allows me to find an appropriate response, without being worried whether i'm doing "the right" thing. i don't worry about specific situations and how i'd deal with them, as long as i have this kind of guidance. no matter what i choose connection over disconnection and help me goddess to have the patience!









i find Becky Bailey's, Easy to Love Difficult to Discipline to be a very practical guide to specific situations.


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