# nude recreation with kiddos?



## Unoppressed MAMA Q (Jun 13, 2004)

anyone ever done it? what clubs have you tried?
any advice for someone who is interested?


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

I'm sorry - Do you mean taking your children to a nudist club?


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## Unoppressed MAMA Q (Jun 13, 2004)




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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Can't help you there, then. I'm interested in the reasoning behind it, though. And have to admit I'd be a little concerned about participating in something like that if I'd just had an encounter with CPS.


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## Unoppressed MAMA Q (Jun 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
Can't help you there, then. I'm interested in the reasoning behind it, though. And have to admit I'd be a little concerned about participating in something like that if I'd just had an encounter with CPS.


forgive me, i was seeking information from people who CAN help me.
if you are interested in the "reasoning behind it", i invite you to google 'family values nudist club' or something to that effect.

do tell me about your encounters with CPS.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

>anyone ever done it?

many times but not in the past couple of years due to money/time constraints more than anything.

>what clubs have you tried?

La Pommerie in Quebec, lovely, lovely, place. I would spend the summer there if I could.

Avalon in Paw Paw, West Virginia. Also a very nice place. Now has indoor and outdoor pools.

We used to belong to Sunny Rest in PA when oldest was a baby. We've been to a few other clubs in NE PA and also a couple in the Hamilton, Ontario area.

>any advice for someone who is interested?

Bring a towel









Seriously, depending on the age of your kids they may feel self-conscious about being nude. All the clubs I've ever been too require nudity for everyone but some will grant exceptions to kids. You could always ask what their rules are.

My kids are now 9, 7, and 4. Like I said they haven't been in a couple of years but they said they'd like to go again. They do remember a little.

One thing is that we don't discuss nudism with our extended family (at least not the grandparents). We're not ashamed we just don't feel like explaining.
Ditto for people we don't know well.

So a few years ago the kids come home from vacation and tell the neighbor kid how they went to the club where everyone is naked. Neighbor kid (11 yo)is shocked. "You mean you looked at naked women?" My then 4 yo son replied "I like looking at women."

Mary Beth of Paul, Harry, and Timmy


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## 1boy1girl (Jun 3, 2003)

I don't think I'd take kids at all.


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## gottakid (Jun 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1boy1girl*
I don't think I'd take kids at all.

me either


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## ~*max*~ (Dec 23, 2002)

I know the OP said she did not want to discuss the reasoning behind nudist gatherings, but I truly would like to understand _why_ people do this. I am not criticizing, I truly do not get it, and it sounds like others here might feel the same way.


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## Starr (Mar 16, 2005)

:


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## Unoppressed MAMA Q (Jun 13, 2004)

thank you marybeth, for writing back in a HELPFUL manner. i think avalon looks charming as per the website. we're in IN, there are at least six resorts here! too cool...

as for some others, i don't really understand why you responded to this thread. i did not solicit theoretical opinions about taking or not taking kids. start your own thread. furthermore, if it is so important to you to give that opinion, i don't understand why you would merely jump on, say 'i wouldn't do that' with utterly NO REAON WHY.
what i mean is, it sounds like you find yourself in a position to judge me/others who make this choice. well, i'm not biting. if you have actual valid concerns for me as to why you think my kids would be unhappy/unsafe at a family oriented nudist resort, please share. if not, why respond?

max-thank you for being respectful. you can find answers to your questions by looking at diferent websites for nude recreation centers. also, www.aanr.com might help you.


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## ~*max*~ (Dec 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Unoppressed MAMA Q*
thank you marybeth, for writing back in a HELPFUL manner. i think avalon looks charming as per the website. we're in IN, there are at least six resorts here! too cool...

as for the last 2 posters, i don't really understand why you responded to this thread. i did not solicit theoretical opinions about taking or not taking kids. furthermore, if it is so important to you to give that opinion, i don't understand why you would merely jump on, say 'i wouldn't do that' with utterly NO REAON WHY.
what i mean is, it sounds like you find yourself in a position to judge me/others who make this choice. well, i'm not biting. if you have actual valid concerns for me as to why you think my kids would be unhappy/unsafe at a family oriented nudist resort, please share. if not, why respond?

Unoppressed MAMA Q, this _is_ a discussion board. You opened up the topic. It sounds to me like you are pretty defensive about this. I wonder why that is? Perhaps you would find what you are looking for on a board for nudists. Also, lots of the mamas here are pretty sensitive right now do to the diaper picture crisis, so I think people are on ultra-protective mode, myself included.


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## Unoppressed MAMA Q (Jun 13, 2004)

we cross posted, max.
i didn't start out feeling defensive, but then i got to read dragonfly's ignorant and judgmental posts. i am a victim of child protection services abuse, and i did NOT appreciate the reference. although it does show me that dragonfly knows little about either CPS OR nude recreation.
anyhoo, i appreciate the private and respectful responses.
discussion is one thing, judgmental, spiritually cloistered junk is another. if others want to PM me, i now understand why! please do so, maybe we can host a get together at a family-oriented club someday!


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

I wasn't trying to be disrespectful. I just wonder about the choice for a number of reasons. First, it does seem odd to me to take children to a place where many other unknown people are nude. I don't have any problem with nudism. We're nude quite frequently around here. But, then, I know that there aren't any child molestors in my house, eyeing my son.

Second, if CPS has taken you to court, then doing something that would certainly be inclined to turn their heads in your direction seems a little strange to me. I don't think that you should live in fear of CPS, but this would be one potentially inflammatory thing I, personally, wouldn't have a problem sacrificing... Apparently it's different for you and I'm curious as to why that is.









As for your question: You might have better luck in Finding Your Tribe.


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## BunintheOven (Jan 14, 2003)

I've done it (without children)
But one fat woman farted in my face, I was pretty grossed out by that, I never went back. Nothing worse than a fart from someone without pants on.









It wasn't just a "poof" it was a full out FART, ok!

I do not want my kids around that nasty stuff.

~L


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## gurumama (Oct 6, 2002)

I didn't think Dragonfly's comments were judgmental at all, Unoppressed Mama. I thought she was showing concern for your experiences with CPS, and how seeking out a nudist resort right now--at this delicate moment--might put you back in jeopardy, if you've had problems with CPS in the past.

I read her question as a caring, thoughtful approach to your inquiry, one that took into consideration your sig line and your recent trauma with CPS.

I realize you are very sensitive about the issue right now, so I'm surprised that you'd find judgment where, in fact, there was simply a question from her that seemed to be designed to help you.

I hope all is going well in terms of CPS, and that your family is healing.


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## gurumama (Oct 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BunintheOven*
I've done it (without children)
But one fat woman farted in my face, I was pretty grossed out by that, I never went back. Nothing worse than a fart from someone without pants on.









It wasn't just a "poof" it was a full out FART, ok!

I do not want my kids around that nasty stuff.

~L

Well, I never thought about that angle on being at a nudist resort!







: I just read an interesting article on nudism in a local weekly newspaper, and DH and I were discussing the issue.

Pants do serve as fart filters, now don't they. Oh, my. Don't eat beans before going to a nudist resort.


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

I don't know where you are, but there is a place in Maryland, a bit north and east of dc, a bit south and east of baltimore.

I'll try and google for it (never been, but heard it is family friendly).

Kaly


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Unoppressed MAMA Q*
if it is so important to you to give that opinion, i don't understand why you would merely jump on, say 'i wouldn't do that' with utterly NO REAON WHY.

I wouldn't take my kids some place where everyone was nude because they are modest. We didn't teach them to be modest and never made a big deal out of nudity, but it just naturally developed in them as they got older. Having watched this in my kids, I would not do anything to change what I see as a natural desire to keep their private parts private. I think that many conversations I have had with my kids to try to protect them from perverts would have been more difficult if I went against their natural inclination to be modest as they got older -- not because I believe modesty is super important, but because I believe that teaching my children to trust their own gut is VERY important. Nude recreation would not be an appropriate choice for my kids.

If CPS were a part of my life, I would be walking on egg shells. I would not do ANYTHING that would made someone bat an eye. I believe that my child's best interest is to be with me, and risking that for a vacation would be foolish to me.


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## Unoppressed MAMA Q (Jun 13, 2004)

maybe having been exploited and hung out to dry by CPS has made me rather defensive in general.
nonetheless, i'm totally comfortable with the decision to check it out. everyone is different, but part of my process in healing from CPS intrusion is by refusing to allow them to make decisions about my life (i did not lose my babies and have been out of the system for some time).
the only way CPS would know i took my toddlers to a nudist camp is if someone TOLD THEM! and even i don't think big brother has CPS agents waiting to 'bust' nude families at the club. they're too busy punking on people in my city; i think my kids are likely safer at a nudist club than at home!

all defensiveness aside, *I* am not seeking people's opinions on whether it's a good idea for MY kids to go (i know they will have a blast). that said, someone pointed out that this IS a discussion board, so i'll just shush and quit trying to control the flow.

but don't waste your keystrokes on me, 'cuz i'm not needing to be talked out of anything. peace.


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## Leatherette (Mar 4, 2003)

I can't offer suggestions, just support. I think it is great that you are seeking out family-friendly places. I have great respect for people who are comfortable with their bodies and able to do that (hence my opening the thread), and I think it can be really healthy for kids. I am way too uncomfortable with my own self to do that.

In many parts of Europe, kids/families are nude on the beach all the time. And they seem to be okay, probably healthier about their bodies than most Americans.

And a fart is a fart, no biggie. But why was her behind in someone's face? I think there is some sort of decorum around nudism, and that can't be part of it.

L.


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leatherette*
And a fart is a fart, no biggie. But why was her behind in someone's face? I think there is some sort of decorum around nudism, and that can't be part of it.

L.

Yeah, that makes me think it wasn't so much a family friendly place.









Kaly


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## bleurae (Feb 25, 2005)

You could also try some hot springs resorts that are family friendly. I know Harbin Hot Springs here in cali is awesome but it is limited on the activities for lil kids, though there are some. But a search along that vein may bring more options.
Keep on keepin on Mama Q.

Bleu
mama to bliss om


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

oooooh, hot springs.
sorry, dreaming of a vacation while having coffee.

I just wanted to say that I'm glad to read your babes were not taken from you.

Have a nice vacation.


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

Quote:

one fat woman farted in my face
I assume because she was fat, it was *SO* much worse?

How do you feel about Jews farting? What about black people?


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## oldcrunchymom (Jun 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breathless Wonder*
I assume because she was fat, it was *SO* much worse?

How do you feel about Jews farting? What about black people?

They stink too, but not as bad as fat people.

_(Sorry, couldn't resist.)_









[ETA: That was a joke. Before anyone goes apeshit. :LOL ]


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

So let me get this straight, you are asking if anyone know of any "Family-Friendly" Strip Clubs?


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

No, she's asking if anyone knows of any family friendly nudist colonies.
Kaly


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Unoppressed MAMA Q*
what clubs have you tried?

okay, the word "clubs" just threw me off.








but all the same.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy*
okay, the word "clubs" just threw me off.








but all the same.

Interesting that you would be disappointed in someone's natural parenting choice.

I mentioned in another thread a while ago that we are a naked family. I see nothing wrong with nudity. The ONLY reason for clothes is to keep us warm and occasionally safe (say, while running through sticker bushes), otherwise it is man's law, based on "God's" law, that dictates that we should wear clothing. There is nothing inherantly wrong with nudity.

Back to the OP, I've never been to one, though I would go. Dh and I have discussed it. I'd be afraid if I were in the middle of CPS dealings, but if you are no longer in the system and they're content to leave you alone, I say go for it and have a great time!


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## KendallY (May 25, 2005)

I think this thread got onto a bad tangent, but I wanted to jump in here with my thoughts on the topic.

My dh and I enjoy nude recreation and have joined a club with great facilities in New Jersey. One of our favorite parts about the club (other than the freedom of swimming nude and no tan lines!) is seeing all the kids that go. If you can find a truly family-friendly place (and some are not) - I highly recommend it for kids!

My dh and I have talked A LOT about kids and nudism (we're TTC#1) amongst ourselves and with the parents who bring their kids to the club. We see several benefits for bringing your children to a clothing optional resort or club:

- It seems that it gives kids such a good sense of body image...I know it has helped ME tremendously to see what bodies are SUPPOSED to look like! At the club, there are bodies of every shape, size, color and age (I've even met a woman who had a masectomy). It is a good counter to the unrealistic images that we are bombarded with in the media.

- It teaches them that bodies are not something to be ashamed of or hidden, and that nudity doesn't equal sexuality. I would think this group with so many BF advocates could appreciate anything that de-sexualizes breasts.

I know that once kids get to a certain age that modesty or embarrasment naturally develops - however at the club we go to there is a 11-12 year old girl who is just starting to go through puberty (the point in my life where I would have LEAST wanted to be naked around other people) and she's out there swimming with the rest of us with no sense of shame or embarrasment. I love that! How cool would it be to have a teenager that felt that way about their body, rather than one who started dieting at 10?

My dh and I plan to bring our kids to places like that so they have a better chance of avoiding body issues, so they are less mesmerized by ads that sell with sex, and so they know what 'normal' really is.

In addition, the people that we have met at the club have been so nice and genuine. I would trust my kids around any of them! I definitely think it depends on the club/resort though...I've been to a few that I will never go back to, nor would I take children to. Good ones can be found though! There are lots of resources online (which is how we found the place in NJ).

I must say it's good for adults too...everyone sags, wrinkles, gets cottage-cheese (even men!), balds, and grows hair where they don't want it. Nudism helps you realize that you are beautiful just the way you are!


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breathless Wonder*
I assume because she was fat, it was *SO* much worse?

How do you feel about Jews farting? What about black people?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *lckrause*

They stink too, but not as bad as fat people.

_(Sorry, couldn't resist.)_









[ETA: That was a joke. Before anyone goes apeshit. :LOL ]

Your post is many, many things lckrause, but one thing it is not is a joke.


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## oldcrunchymom (Jun 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Periwinkle*
Your post is many, many things lckrause, but one thing it is not is a joke.









Actually, it was a joke. Specifically, silliness in reply to the IMHO over-the-top reactions of the PPs (plural). Honestly, what does it matter how fat or what color the person is who just farted in your face. :LOL And why turn a thread about trying to find nudist resorts into a size discrimination/racism one?








to you too, Periwinkle.


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## butterflyma (May 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BunintheOven*
I've done it (without children)
But one fat woman farted in my face, I was pretty grossed out by that, I never went back. Nothing worse than a fart from someone without pants on.









It wasn't just a "poof" it was a full out FART, ok!

I do not want my kids around that nasty stuff.

~L

Why would you have your face near someone's butt? Clothed or otherwise?


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## butterflyma (May 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmommy*
okay, the word "clubs" just threw me off.








but all the same.

Actually, it is illegal to bring a minor to a strip club. Nude family recreation is legal. You should follow the aanr link and educate yourself before making judgements.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

I'd do it! No problem at all. I wonder if DH would? Around the house he's been more comfortable with his body than me, but I've caught up since I've been married to him.

20/20 or something had a special on it. They featured this nude grandmother and her teenage grandchildren. She was at a place where they live 24/7 nude. The g'ma said that her teenage daughter had become SO much more comfortable with her developing self since she started visiting at the place. They showed a backshot of the g-ma and teenage boy and girl. Seemed quite healthy to me.

As for modesty being a "natural state." No - I don't think that's true. It's cultrually imposed. Just look at all of the tribes that go nude. The children don't develop modesty some magic age. They learn to hide their bodies from their culture.

The only problem now though is that if my 2 yo saw my breasts 24/7 she'd never get off them. :LOL


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## OakBerry (May 24, 2005)

Ladies, sorry to be off topic, but (quoting from Max)

"lots of the mamas here are pretty sensitive right now do to the diaper picture crisis,"

What does this mean? I am sort of afraid to ask...


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

I *believe* it was found that some weird-o sex site was stealing cloth diaper pictures and putting them up for sickos to get their jollies with. And the sick-os would trade personal info like "Do you know if there is a family website? Where can I get more pictures of this kid."

Terrifying eh?


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## OakBerry (May 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ellien C*
I *believe* it was found that some weird-o sex site was stealing cloth diaper pictures and putting them up for sickos to get their jollies with. And the sick-os would trade personal info like "Do you know if there is a family website? Where can I get more pictures of this kid."

Terrifying eh?


Omg! That is just disgusting.


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## Cole (Apr 27, 2005)

For the record, DH and I are TTC #1, so we haven't hit this yet. But, while we were in Europe this summer, this came up because its just a part of life over there. You don't have to seek out places, you just go to the public beach where there will most likely be quite a few topless and every once and a while completely nude adult and A LOT of completely naked children. (On a side note, one of the cutest things I saw in Europe was this little 2 year old girl, naked except for her shoes, running along the promenade in front of her parents who were taking a break from the beach to get an ice cream! So cute... would have loved a picture for cuteness sake, but that is inappropriate, so I didn't). In fact, the majority of pre puberty girls are just in little bikini bottems.

I went with the topless thing and would do so again in front of my future kids without thinking twice. In fact, we will purposely try to include beach vacations in Europe just to allow our children to be comfortable either way... its a nice mix and wonderful to see soo many natural bodies instead of the sexed up stuff we see on American beaches. I'd like them to be able to see a man in a speedo (or completely nude) and not go "yuuuuccckkk". (On another side note, I was amazed how few augmented breasts were in Europe... even though US public beaches aren't nude, man alive, I'd be embarressed to let my kids see some of the women in their tiny "tops" all augmented to timbuckto...talk about giving the wrong impression.)

I'm not sure I would seek out a nudist club only because I'm not sure its worth the effort seeing as we do frequently travel to Europe and I would be a little concerned about pressuring my kids to be nude. I think the whole point is to allow them to be tolerant and to be themselves... so to go to a nudist club where it is mandatory may be to pushy for me. A mixed club would be perfect, but I'm not sure how available those are in the US.

And for all you naysayers... how do you think you allow breasts to be less sexual and more about breastfeeding? There are many that believe seeing them as natural instead of covering them up is a big step towards that.

As far as tips: bring sunscreen and lots of it.

Oh, and taking them in Europe where it really isn't a choice is a nice way to avoid the whole "seeking it out" think w/ my conservative family... but I realize not everyone has those options (or a conservative extended family!)


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## carolynrosa (Apr 11, 2005)

I haven't been to any nudist clubs, although I've looked into them. My aunt lives a few miles from Avalon, in West Va.
Anyway, I wanted to say that I wouldn't hesitate to bring my kids if they wanted to go. I'd explain that people don't waer their clothes at this place, but that it was fun and they were welcome to come along if they wanted.

Now, I grew up in Japan (after age 10), and spend many evening at the hot baths there, and some were co-ed. When I was first invited, I declined, out of embarrassment, but all my friends went with their families... After awhile, I got curious, and started going. It's not a big deal. It's common there to go, even if you're just staying the night a friend's house. About 8 o'clock, everyone ups and goes to the hot bath, where you shower and then soak in nice hot baths together. When I was in high school, I even once had a slumber party where we all went to the hot baths together.

Nude recreation (and bathing) together is not new, and it's not wierd.


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## Diane~Alena (Aug 23, 2004)

I would like to do something like that with my little ones I think my 8 year olds would be embaressed. I like to give my younger children the idea that God made our bodies and they are nothing to be ashamed of.

I have so many issues with my IL's and their ideas of sexuality and how our bodies should be hidden, kept secret. I am trying to combat the ideas my IL's put in my kids heads like only older girls can change baby girls diapers and boys changed by men. No one can be changed in front of anyone and no one should ever investigate their own body. I am nude alot in my own house and my kids are ok with that. they come into the bathroom while I shower and talk to me as I get dried and dressed. we have had an open door in our bathrooms since the kids we...born really. I would like to have my kids see at a small age that a body is natural and not something to be hidden and ashamed of. I don't think this is a SEX "thing" but rather a self confidence 'thing".


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Well - I talked to DH. His reply was

no how, no way, nada, but:

Have fun honey if you want to go. You mistake how I am in private (nude!) with how I would be in public.

I wonder if my mom would go with me....


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I took my daughter to Harbin Hot Springs when she was 5 or so. She wore her swimsuit some of the time, as I recall. It wasn't an issue - about half of the kids did, especially the older ones, and an occasional adult wore one as well.

At that time, her eye-level was at the average adult's crotch-level, so crowds were somewhat overwhelming... but it was basically okay.

The worst thing was that it's just not a kid-friendly place, even though kids are permitted. Kids were restricted to two of the 5 pools, for example, and if adulst were in the pool with kids they were expected to keep their voices low, and the adults were into this thing where one would sort of cradle-hold another and walk around the pool, some weird therapy thing. Lots of odd people. Oh, and we camped, and some idiot came over when we first got there and asked me to ask my daughter not to use her "big outside voice" when she wasn't being any louder than the rest of us, she was just talking... and then they stayed up really late talking outside and kept us up.

Anyway, I would check and make sure the place was actually *welcoming* to kids, rather than just allowing them... there's a place near Santa Cruz that's much nicer, something like Blackberry?

Dar


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## Stinkerbell (Aug 11, 2005)

I think this a very cool idea. But I wanted to jump in quick to say that we once treated a mentally ill man in the ER (i am an ER nurse) who was picked up at a nudist "family resort". His sole purpose of being there was to oogle young children. I'm sure you thought about this and the pros and cons. I just feel it would irresponsible of me not to share.


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cole*
As far as tips: bring sunscreen and lots of it.


Sadly, this isn't enought to protect against skin cancer. It might actually be worse because it gives people a false sense of security. A beach umbrella and limiting exposure between 10am- 4pm would be more effective.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:

Pants do serve as fart filters, now don't they. Oh, my. Don't eat beans before going to a nudist resort.
:LOL

You know, I would think this is a pretty fun idea but the pedophile issue scares me. Of course, they're out there anywhere but I bet this would be a magnet. We had an article this summer about how many sex offenders the police have found hiding in the bushes by our local lake.

Would a private beach be an option? Maybe hard to find but I know we vacation on private beaches here. And when we visit inlaws, their backyard and pool area is completely private. I bet you could find some resorts that have private villas, etc.


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## chrissy (Jun 5, 2002)

I am so very surprised and disturbed that so many mamas here at MDC are so judgmental these days. Thank goodness not every post is but come on I feel like I am reading at Babycenter or some other mainstream junk site.

To the OP, I am so sorry you have gotten a lot of flack. I swear this place is not always like this.

I don't know a thing about nudism, though I was at a naked beach once on my honeymoon.

I'd go with my kids if I were into it though. I wouldn't let them out of my sight on any vacation- naked or otherwise.

Have fun!


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## KendallY (May 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BusyMommy*
:LOL

You know, I would think this is a pretty fun idea but the pedophile issue scares me.

The club we joined in NJ had a strict screening process. We were interviewed twice on the phone before we were allowed to visit. They checked our IDs when we first showed up (to make sure we were who we said we were). Then we had to interview with several people throughout the day before they'd agreen to let us join. They don't allow singles (only couples) and are pretty tight on who they invite. They didn't do a background check, but I felt fairly secure with the screening process.

Not all places are like this. Some let anyone in if they're willing to pay the entrance fee. If you're worried about it, try to find a place with a good screening policy. Beaches and places open to the public do not feel nearly as safe and reliable as private clubs.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chrissy*
Thank goodness not every post is but come on I feel like I am reading at Babycenter or some other mainstream junk site. [/b]

I see your point, to an extent... but it might be time to revisit Babycenter. This place will seem like heaven when you come back. :LOL

And about giving the OP "flack" - it's called questioning a decision and perhaps offering a differing opinion. That's generally a positive thing. I don't remember anyone personally attacking the OP. (Of course, I also haven't re-visited the entire thread).


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