# More Educated, Less likely to Spank?



## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

A recent U.S. News and World Report article cites a survey done last year in which "41 percent of college-educated Americans disapproved of spanking, compared with only 20 percent of those who didn't complete high school.

I just read this is another article, anyone have the source? I'd love link to bookmark!


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## joy_seeker (Mar 24, 2009)

There are always studies that show that education and other socio-economic statust influence parenting. I say YUCK to these statistics. Its as if they are implying that being poor prevents one from being a good parent. I do think that there is possibly some correlation to the fact that most people who are formally educated have been exposed to ideas and lifestyles apart from their own upbringing and therefore are more aware of alternatives (and also more likely to know what alternatives are most socially acceptable and in turn lie to surveyors but I digress). However I disagree with the foundation of these studies who choose to look at formal education as their only variable.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

I haven't read anywhere that says its the ONLY variable. All I've ever seen is that they are saying some factors (such as this one) which make things statistically more likely. To me it seems like common sense that less education would lead to more spanking - the less you are taught the less you know - including alternatives to spanking and dangers of spanking. As you said, most people who are formally educated have been exposed to ideas and lifestyles apart from their own upbringing and therefore are more aware of alternatives. My personal experience shows this to be true - HOWEVER - that does not mean less education = less effective parenting. My husband is a high school drop out. He is very successful and never hits our children. I didn't finish college, but I knew I wouldn't hit my children from the time I was a small child - it had nothing to do with my education.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joy_seeker* 
There are always studies that show that education and other socio-economic statust influence parenting. I say YUCK to these statistics. Its as if they are implying that being poor prevents one from being a good parent.

I totally disagree.

The studies don't say that poverty prevents anyone from being a good parent. They do conclude that education levels and socioeconomic status _influence_ parenting. I don't understand why folks are so offended by this. Why wouldn't those factors make an impact, in all sorts of ways? Not necessarily in every case of course, but _in general_.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

exactly zinemama. I don't think an eskimo would be offended if a study showed that people who live in Alaska are more likely to get frostbite at some point in their life then people who live in Hawaii.


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## flower01 (Aug 1, 2007)

I think it's reasonable to look at these kinds of studies, you just have to be careful what kinds of conclusions are made. I didn't take one parenting or child education class in college so my formal education has had no influence on the ways I choose to parent my kids. On the other hand, because I like being educated, I choose to educate myself on issues related to parenting...which is how I found MDC, Mothering magazine, and all the other GD and AP related literature. So whereas a college degree might not actually affect a person's views on discipline, people with formal education are probably more likely to research any decision they make in regards to their personal life - whether that be related to finances, their views on marriage, and parenting, etc.

But, then again none of my friends (who all have college degrees) see the same way I do about AP...so I don't know if it means anything actually.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

well put flower. the conclusion to this particular study seems to be only that college grads are less likely to spank then high school drop outs. We also know that young moms are more likey to spank (and being a young mom can cause one to be a HS drop out - so that there can be connected as well) of course lack of proper education in high school can *contribute to the likely hood of getting pregnant while in high school as well. Everything seems to be connected, no exclusive.

And, the conclusion here was also only that they are less likely. Yet still, the majority of people, high school drop out or college grad, are more likely to think spanking is okay then to think its not okay. Just there is a larger amount who think its okay in the former then the latter.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

My parents spanked me even though I was born after they graduated college, finished medschool, and were halfway through thier residencies.









Dh's parents didn't get through grade school. His mom spanked him. Dad didn't.

Perhaps highly educated people are more likely to be raised in cultural atmospheres that don't push spanking?


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## Mama.Pajama (Jul 16, 2008)

I do agree with PPs in that college-educated people would be more _likely_ to make an informed decision about something like spanking (or breastfeeding, GD, etc.). But that isn't what dictates _everyone's_ choices. Every literate person with access to the Internet at home can look up information on the subject, and everyone without that option can get informed at the local library for free. People who are unable to get a degree (for whatever reason- life circumstances, money, etc.) still have just as much ability to be educated about these things as the college graduate!
So IMO, what this [the decision of parents to spank their children] really depends on is a person's thirst for knowledge: a person who is always searching for credible opinions and information will be more likely to make a balanced, well-informed decision than a person who doesn't have a questioning nature. Maybe if there was a way to measure this aspect of human nature, we could account for that other 49% of the college graduates, not to mention the 20% of the high school drop-outs.
The cultural influences are a huge part of the story as well, but that's a whole discussion in itself. These factors all work together to influence parenting decisions.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

I wonder if another factor that influences this is that poor people feel more judged by their children's behavior? I've heard that as an explanation for why racial minorities are more likely to spank.


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## joy_seeker (Mar 24, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
exactly zinemama. I don't think an eskimo would be offended if a study showed that people who live in Alaska are more likely to get frostbite at some point in their life then people who live in Hawaii.

Because no one is implying that getting frostbite is a lifestyle choice or making a judgement about their parenting skills based solely on one's intelligence. Formal education does not equal intelligence but that is the conclusion that people jump to when they read things like this.

An analogy closer to what this study implies is that more men than women understand complex mathematics. While the statistic may be technically accurate, because more men choose to study higher level mathematics, it doesn't take other factors into account such as societal norms.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama* 
I totally disagree.

The studies don't say that poverty prevents anyone from being a good parent. They do conclude that education levels and socioeconomic status _influence_ parenting. I don't understand why folks are so offended by this. Why wouldn't those factors make an impact, in all sorts of ways? Not necessarily in every case of course, but _in general_.

I think _in general_ is the problem. What is the purpose of these studies? What do the people conducting them hope to do with the information? Is the suggestion that formal education is the best way to prevent parents from spanking? Do they feel that programs need to be made availble to parents who are not formally educated that teach alternative parenting strategies? If so then do we exclude parents who are formally educated despite the fact that 59% of them still believe spanking is okay?

Another possiblity is that, since I am looking at this through the lens of a parent who doesn't spank, I have completely misinterpreted what the study was trying to show. Perhaps it is indicating that formal education makes us _worse_ parents. Maybe the people who conducted this study believe that spanking is a good thing and that I am a weak college girl who doesn't have what it takes to be a "real" parent. Or maybe they have no bias one way or the other and were just interested (doubtful but a possibility)

I just don't find statistics like these useful in any way except to perpetuate stereotypes. JMHO


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

I'll just give a general gut reaction form someone who does not hold a college degree and who untill very recently lived "below" to poverty line. I think being "poor" makes it harder..when for better or worse you are forced to relay on others for certain services you find your self eaither being told how to do XYZ ALL the time or you find your self questioning it. The WIC people who bombard you with paper work on how the lack of a flu shot is the quickest way to kill your kid.. the state sanctioned approved day care who inisits your child needs discipline and issolated time outs.. Grandma who watches little suzie every Wednesday-Monday afternoon so you can work telling you all she needs is a spanking. You see it more around you maybe because you end up surrounded more by youger more inexperienced mothers many times the opposite older grandparents who carry one the "older ways" often just overly tired and parents who are despertly trying and know no other way. I'll be honestly I have seen a huge diffrence on how spanking was viewed by the peole in my old neighborhhood (more uneducated and poorer) VS our current (more college degrees middle class) and while both deffently have spankers and non those with a higher education and more middle upper class do seem OVERALL more willing to go gentle discipline there more willing to say no this isn't right and aren't being told 6 times a day you don't know WE are the experts. SO no I don't think being poorer or having less education means more likely to spank but I have found the influcence can be there more. Sadly.

Deanna


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joy_seeker* 
Because no one is implying that getting frostbite is a lifestyle choice or making a judgement about their parenting skills based solely on one's intelligence. Formal education does not equal intelligence but that is the conclusion that people jump to when they read things like this.

1) education is no more or less a lifestyle choice then choosing to live in a cold climate is. Some people choose the climate they live in (or how much education they obtain). Some people have no choice (or feel they have no choice).

2) No one is making a judgment on parenting skills based solely on intelligence. nor would one be making a judgment on one getting frostbite. Just that certain things increase the frequency of other certain things. Not that all people who live in cold weather get frostbite (or all people who drop out of high school spank) Not that all people who live in warm weather don't get frostbite (or all people who go to college don't spank) It's simply observation that certain things are seen in conjunction with other certain things more frequently then with their counterparts.

3) People jumping to conclusions is not the fault of the people providing the information. If this is the case, we should have a problem with ALL statistics on EVERY subject. Perhaps some people do. I see it for what it is - two things that correspond with each other (HS drop outs that spank when they become parents) more often then corresponding with something else (college grads who spank when they become parents)

I think understanding all factors is beneficial in understanding what the "target audience" is when seeking to provide information to those who need it. in other words : knowing that statistically more HS drop outs will spank as parents then college grads will tells us that if we are going to drop off some flyers for free parenting seminars it might be better to hand them out at local teen hang outs instead of at the hard rock or starbucks.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom* 
I'll just give a general gut reaction form someone who does not hold a college degree and who untill very recently lived "below" to poverty line. I think being "poor" makes it harder..when for better or worse you are forced to relay on others for certain services you find your self eaither being told how to do XYZ ALL the time or you find your self questioning it. The WIC people who bombard you with paper work on how the lack of a flu shot is the quickest way to kill your kid.. the state sanctioned approved day care who inisits your child needs discipline and issolated time outs.. Grandma who watches little suzie every Wednesday-Monday afternoon so you can work telling you all she needs is a spanking. You see it more around you maybe because you end up surrounded more by youger more inexperienced mothers many times the opposite older grandparents who carry one the "older ways" often just overly tired and parents who are despertly trying and know no other way. I'll be honestly I have seen a huge diffrence on how spanking was viewed by the peole in my old neighborhhood (more uneducated and poorer) VS our current (more college degrees middle class) and while both deffently have spankers and non those with a higher education and more middle upper class do seem OVERALL more willing to go gentle discipline there more willing to say no this isn't right and aren't being told 6 times a day you don't know WE are the experts. SO no I don't think being poorer or having less education means more likely to spank but I have found the influcence can be there more. Sadly.

Deanna

Well put. Thanks for sharing your personal experience with us!

I grew up in a semi-nice middle class environment. My mom told me spanking was illegal though she did it anyway ( I had banked on this when I called the cops on her once only to find out its not actually illegal). I don't know if it happened more there then where I live now, but I know you didnt see it as much and it wasnt talked about as much. Now where I live spanking is obviously the norm. My husband probably has the highest income in the neighborhood, we could live somewhere nicer but we are comfortable here and it allows us to save money. Being in a lower income, definitely less educated neighborhood (several factors I will get into in a sec) I DEFINITELY see way more spanking and acceptance of here then I did when I lived in a nicer middle class neighborhood. The factors I mentioned earlier is the schools here have always be low budget schools with SEVERE budget cuts every year (this time twice in one year). The people who live here also have cultural differences, language barriers etc. However, there are free English language courses all over the place here, they only have to choose to attend. They don't even have to be legal citizens to go. also lots of free transportation options in the area, but I admit its a catch 22 because it might be harder to find out about these services if you don't speak english or know how to use the internet - which is what you would be trying to learn and need the services for in the first place!


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

With all of these, it's important to remember that correlation does not equal causation. A college education does not cause you to be less likely to favor spanking. It's merely associated with it.

So, the more interesting question is: What is it about the knowledge, culture, experiences or beliefs of college educated people that makes them more inclined to be against spanking than people who didn't complete high school?

And the disheartening reality is that the majority of both groups are for spanking (59% of college educated people and 80% of people who didn't complete high school).


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

well put Lynn.

and perhaps my title for this thread was not really accurate of my standpoint.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
So, the more interesting question is: What is it about the knowledge, culture, experiences or beliefs of college educated people that makes them more inclined to be against spanking than people who didn't complete high school?

Well, it obviously doesn't apply across the board, but my experiences with people I knew when I was younger lead me to suspect that there's far more correlation than causation.

I graduated, but only just, and my motives were...unusual. The vast majority of my friends never made it through at all. Most of those people were also drug addicts, alcoholics or sex addicts (one of them, at least) was all three. Most of them also came from _severely_ dysfunctional homes (beatings, sexual abuse, and serious emotional abuse). They didn't care about their educations, and most of their parents didn't care, either. Their parents wanted them to sit down, shut up, and stay out of their hair. They didn't graduate, partly because they had no support in their home lives. I'm sure that lack of support also affects how they parent (the ones who do). It's not really about their education or lack thereof - it's about rage at life, in general, that's never been processed.

Of course, there are also lots of high school dropouts who don't have that kind of brutal home life, but, ime, the percentage of people with that kind of background who don't graduate is quite high. Plus, comparing high school dropouts with people who have completed degrees is self-selecting for a lot of things. Those who drop out (or barely make it, as in my case) are more likely to be lacking in general direction and goals, as well. (I'm 40, and still have no clue what I want to be when I grow up.) Those who have degrees are more likely to have a strong focus, organizational skills, etc...

ETA: It also occurred to me a few minutes ago that people who have more education are more aware of how many people don't spank and don't approve of spanking...so they're more likely to lie than someone who believes that "everybody does it".


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## femalephish (Feb 3, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama* 
I totally disagree.

The studies don't say that poverty prevents anyone from being a good parent. They do conclude that education levels and socioeconomic status _influence_ parenting. I don't understand why folks are so offended by this. Why wouldn't those factors make an impact, in all sorts of ways? Not necessarily in every case of course, but _in general_.

I think people get so offended because studies don't ever seem to say that less education/lower socioeconomic status _influence_ parenting in a positive way.

I'm with Mark Twain (although he may have been quoting someone else); "There are three kinds of lies; lies, damn lies, and statistics."

ps I dropped out of high school


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

maybe this one is more up your alley femalephish

http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_ml...722_index.html


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

This is dangerous territory. I mean, it may seem innocent enough- its just numbers after all, but really, this idea and figure should not be taken lightly.

Education is linked with socio-economic status. The complexities that go into why people do what they do that have statistical correlations with these things are so difficult to sift out, not to mention emotionally and politically charged and often used against people in justification of why poor people deserve to be poor.

The question is not even "What changes people's minds in college?" because most people who go to college have led entirely different lives than high school drop outs. This result may not be connected to education at all (it could be more of a socio-economic thing, a maturity of parents, resources, relationships, etc.).

The trend for information consumption now, in this country, is sound-bite nuggets. "Over half of..." "Most people..." "Research has shown..." and we take these 1 liners without question. Say "White people have a higher average iq" and you have racist gold. It may be what the naked numbers say, but does not tell the true story. Say "Uneducated people hit their kids" and we all get to look down at them and shake our heads. But we don't know what the REAL story is.

After this great, big long post, I repeat another poster. I say YUCK. If the numbers show this, then so be it. But I am SURE there is more to the story and taking this tiny bit out of context can be very damaging.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

I think its goo to look at the numbers for the reason I pointed out above. To see, statistically, which group should be our "target audience" for providing positive discipline information. While people at both starbucks and planned parenthood may benefit from the information, if we know that a younger crowd consisting of mostly high school students attends our local planned parenthood, and that the college students hang out at our local starbucks, and we want to leave 10 free parenting books lying around at one place or the other, well then, that information might seem pretty useful to some. I personally don't see how that can be damaging. What people choose to do with the numbers is up to them. If they use it to create or justify a prejudice that is a shame, but the information CAN be used to figure out what group of people generally needs more information on a certain subject compared to another group - thus helping us develop our "target audience" - Do I want to go give out free warm clothes to my neighbors here in Florida, or should I ship them to the Eskimos in Alaska?


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## lanamommyphd07 (Feb 14, 2007)

over-educated momma here chiming in....In this case I'd say it's believable, but perhaps for different reasons. It's not just the higher education, but it's the awareness that there is so much more out there, that it's okay to buck the system, that just because Mr. Whoever says so doesn't make it true, the ability to think for onesself, etc. While some people don't need college for this, many others do. If I had been lucky enough to be raised somewhat differently, I might not have needed a bazillion years of child-related coursework to become a GD advocate. So I suppose we can look at it like this: Maybe a college education was successful in turning more folks away from spanking. It's pretty good news. Maybe, as more kids than ever are attending college at the same time as the world is having more trouble with spanking, it's a little impossible to tell what came first?


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## umsami (Dec 1, 2003)

Even though 41% may disapprove... I bet a good portion of those "do spank." Sorry to be a pessimist, but I've seen way too many people spank their kids in public (and even in "good neighborhoods" with college-educated parents)... that I doubt it.










I think that perhaps better educated folks *may* have read about spanking's harm... or may not want to... but I don't necessarily think that they practice what they preach. I just think that they are less likely to admit they spank. Perhaps it's because I'm living in the corporal punishment loving South... but I'm not buying it. Unless they have studies where they put nanny-cams in people's homes... I have doubts. People report what they think you want to here. (I worked in market research for awhile, so that could be part of my skepticism.)

I've heard from plenty of my colleagues (all with advanced degrees) that some children just need a whack on the bottom.







:


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

yes more people spank then approve of spanking. some people know why spanking is wrong but don't know what is right. Thats another issue for sure.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Personally I think this is just another way to push an agenda.

I also find it hard to believe that the reason people would be interested in this study is to find their "target" audience....

I did drop out of high school, thank GOD, and it was not for a lack of interest in learning, no, rather to the contrary, school was KILLING my love of learning, and I have gone on to learn so much out of school.

I think this study is silly.

I don't think you find your "target" audience with this information, I think spanking parents span the spectrum.

This is just silly.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
A recent U.S. News and World Report article cites a survey done last year in which "41 percent of college-educated Americans disapproved of spanking, compared with only 20 percent of those who didn't complete high school.

I just read this is another article, anyone have the source? I'd love link to bookmark!

just a random thought but that is only two groups... college educated and high school drop outs. what about people who finished highschool but did not go on to college, people who went to college but dropped out, people who dropped out of highschool got a GED and then went on to college, does college educated mean any college at all or does it mean those with a college degree? which degree, is AA enough college or does this only refer to BA/ BS? does the time when people have their kids effect their parenting?

we dont believe in spanking... i dropped out of college when i got pregnant dp never went. his parents were not college educated and they did spank... mine were both college educated and they did not however my mother was still working on her Bachelors and my father was still working on his masters after i was born ... neither me nor DP has a college degree and we will not spank. i was never spanked and i have no intention of spanking my kids. that has way more to do with they way my parents raised me than it does with my level of education.

i think sometimes there are so many factors to consider when it comes to how parents raise their kids. my parents were spanked and they wanted something different for their family. my mother was also over thirty when she had me and i am the oldest so age may be a factor. i was 19 when i got pg but i was never spanked and thus will not spank my children.


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## Magali (Jun 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
Personally I think this is just another way to push an agenda.

I also find it hard to believe that the reason people would be interested in this study is to find their "target" audience....

I did drop out of high school, thank GOD, and it was not for a lack of interest in learning, no, rather to the contrary, school was KILLING my love of learning, and I have gone on to learn so much out of school.

I think this study is silly.

I don't think you find your "target" audience with this information, I think spanking parents span the spectrum.

This is just silly.

I agree. I dropped out of University because I felt it was killing my love of learning. That was over 10 years ago and I have gone on to learn so much since then. So much that University couldn't even begin to teach me. And actually, I think that if I hadn't dropped out and took my own path I might not feel so strongly against spanking. You are right sisteeesmama. This study is silly.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

There are many factors that influence spanking and it has long been known that education level influences parenting decisions.

The only way to end spanking is a willingness to look at factors that contribute to this decision.

I don't care if those factors make people uncomfortable--they have to be confronted and faced if we, as a culture, are going to end spanking.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
Personally I think this is just another way to push an agenda.

What agenda do you think the authors of this study are pushing?


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

I respect if some people find a study silly. I personally don't. I think, as with ANY study, you can take what you choose to from it. There are probably 100 reasons why they did this study. They knew there were many people who would FOR VARIOUS reasons (including determining a "target audience") would find this information useful - and so they saw it as a profitable thing to do a study on. Again, this isnt the ONLY factor, and it doesn't mean x=y either. It just means they notice more from this group believe in spanking then from that group. What a person chooses to use that information for is up to them. I'm sure they were trying to make a "point" all studies do - but I personally can find useful information from it even if that wasnt the point they were trying to make. Example given earlier: if I had free parenting books to give away, I would leave them in a place where I know pregnant high school drop outs might be (for several reasons, not just because they would be more likely to spank but also because they are probably less likely to afford the books) instead of leaving them at a college hang out.


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## Snuzzmom (Feb 6, 2008)

I've only seen the truth of this when people have educated themselves about parenting issues. The people I know who have read up on alternate methods of discipline are the ones I know who are least likely to spank. The college degree doesn't seem to factor in much, in my own limited antecdotal experience.

Regardless of amount of school education, the people I know who spank are either the people whose parents did it that way or who are following a specific Christian child-rearing method.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
A recent U.S. News and World Report article cites a survey done last year in which "41 percent of college-educated Americans disapproved of spanking, compared with only 20 percent of those who didn't complete high school.

Maybe college educated people are a bit more savvy about what's politically correct and less likely to incriminate themselves.







Or maybe the magazine was just trying to be controversial to get people to read and also maybe trying to stroke their readership's ego.

Anyway, clearly education isn't making much difference if 59% of college educated people will actually admit to approving of spanking. There are so many more important factors that play into spanking that I am just finding difficult to understand why this stat is even relevant.


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

Honestly, that doesn't surprise me.

College educated women have higher breastfeeding rates too. It's just what is. More education = more knowledge = better choices.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Talula Fairie* 
More education = more knowledge = better choices.

This is exactly the agenda I think is being pushed with a "study" like that.

I also have a hard time believing a study of that nature was just being done to satiate an interest, more likely to push an "ideal".

I agree with riverscout, the findings aren't impressively in favor of the college educated non-spankers.

I still think it's a very silly study, but I don't tend to get my info. from the US news and world report, either.


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

Everyone SHOULD be educated! I don't think it has to be through college but we should all be educated, and if that's the agenda they are pushing, I'm all for it.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
There are many factors that influence spanking and it has long been known that education level influences parenting decisions.

The only way to end spanking is a willingness to look at factors that contribute to this decision.

I don't care if those factors make people uncomfortable--they have to be confronted and faced if we, as a culture, are going to end spanking.

I would say that this studies findings are not impressive enough to get me worked up about. I would tend to worry more about what people learn at home, what they learn growing up, what they see/hear about at school, church, camp etc. and what extended family does.

I wouldn't say that this studies finding's make me uncomfortable, more that I just don't think it holds much relevancy or that it rings true to me.

To me a study doesn't hold much weight, to many factors could contaminate it and IMO in this day science isn't always irrefutable. (Look at AIDS!)


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Talula Fairie* 
Everyone SHOULD be educated! I don't think it has to be through college but we should all be educated, and if that's the agenda they are pushing, I'm all for it.


I guess it depends on what you consider "being educated" to mean.

And I doubt the agenda would be "Everyone should be educated in some way, not necessarily in school, but y'know, somehow....unschooling is a totally valid option!" That is not a very common agenda to be pushing, but public school and college educations sure are!


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

So we should just discount the findings of the entire scientific community? Lots of people cite studies, including Mothering Magazine.

There are many studies with CLEAR findings, such as the results of breastfeeding vs formula feeding. Of course science is not irrefutable and not every study is the same, but it's ignorant to discount EVERY study becuase "many factors could contaminate it." That's why reputable studies are carefully done and peer reviewed.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Ofcourse, everything you said I agree with, but not having read the article myself, or the seen the study I can't know if it actually a study that has been put through the proper channels or not, y'know?

I don't just accept the findings of studies or stats people provide without finding out if they have been proven and I hope you don't either


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

P.S. As much as I love Mothering Magazine I don't just blindly believe everything I read from them either, sorry!


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
I guess it depends on what you consider "being educated" to mean.

And I doubt the agenda would be "Everyone should be educated in some way, not necessarily in school, but y'know, somehow....unschooling is a totally valid option!" That is not a very common agenda to be pushing, but public school and college educations sure are!

I think it's a pretty big leap to take from a study that concluded "college educated people are less likely to spank" to mean "everyone should go to public school." Many homeschooled children go on to college and studies have shown that they are quite smart. I don't think this particular study was saying there is one good way to educate. Per mothering's acticle on homeschool:

Quote:

Myth:
Homeschooled children are undereducated.

Fact:
Numerous studies of homeschoolersa^?(TM) achievement show that homeschoolers score exceptionally well on standardized tests, with the average/median homeschool students outperforming at least 70 to 80 percent of their conventionally schooled peers in all subjects and at all grade levels.18, 19 Studies also show that the longer a student is homeschooled, the higher his or her test scores become.20 In addition, homeschoolers have been described as a^?oedominatinga^?? national contests, such as the national spelling and geography bees, and are now sought by many colleges.21-26

Myth:
Homeschoolers have a hard time applying for, getting into, and adjusting to college.

Fact:
College admissions officers now seek out homeschoolers due to their excellent preparation for academic success at college. An article in Stanford Magazine indicates that Stanford has a a^?oespecial interesta^?? in homeschoolers, and is a^?oeeager to embrace thema^?? despite their lack of formal credentials. a^?oeThe distinguishing factor is intellectual vitality,a^?? says Dr. Jonathan Reider, a former senior associate director of undergraduate admissions at Stanford and a national expert on college-bound homeschoolers. a^?oeThese kids have it, and everything they do is responding to it.a^??59 David and Micki Colfax, authors of the well-known book Homeschooling for Excellence, homeschooled four sons, three of whom attended Harvard.60 These are just a few examples; Karl M. Bundaya^?(TM)s well-known website (www.learninfreedom.org) lists more than 1,000 colleges and universities, including Ivy League schools and many other very selective and prestigious schools, that have readily admitted homeschoolers.61
http://www.mothering.com/articles/gr...ue-colors.html


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
P.S. As much as I love Mothering Magazine I don't just blindly believe everything I read from them either, sorry!

I don't either, but I do when I research the peer reviewed studies they cite.


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
Ofcourse, everything you said I agree with, but not having read the article myself, or the seen the study I can't know if it actually a study that has been put through the proper channels or not, y'know?

I don't just accept the findings of studies or stats people provide without finding out if they have been proven and I hope you don't either









I didn't say I 100% agreed with it, merely that those findings do not surprise me. Whether or not they are totally true I have no idea, because like you, I did not read or see the study.


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## Just Elsa (May 18, 2009)

I did not spank when I was a high school drop out. I do not spank now that I have a degree from a top university. Spanking was not covered in my coursework.


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

this is completely believable to me. i'm also "overeducated," and among my peer group, i don't know anyone who spanks, at all. and NOT because they're all AP. many of them engage in mainstream discipline tactics (time-outs for everything







) and parenting choices i don't agree with (CIO), but none of them spank.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just Elsa* 
I did not spank when I was a high school drop out. I do not spank now that I have a degree from a top university. Spanking was not covered in my coursework.


LOL, that is so funny!


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just Elsa* 
I did not spank when I was a high school drop out. I do not spank now that I have a degree from a top university. Spanking was not covered in my coursework.

The actual education you would get on spanking depend on what your major was and what classes you choose to take for your General Education requirements. If you took Sociology (Marriage and the Family) and Psychology like I did, it may be covered. And of course anything on Child Development would probably cover it too.

I'm not sure the exact reasons for the particular connection, but I'd venture to guess that an educated person (college or not) would be more likely to research parenting and read books?

I only finished one year of college and while I technically am a high school graduate, I took a test to get out of high school that is only valid in California. I don't spank, and I consider myself to be an educated person. I did research many aspects of parenting. My entire family is college educated if that makes a difference


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *readytobedone* 
this is completely believable to me. i'm also "overeducated," and among my peer group, i don't know anyone who spanks, at all. and NOT because they're all AP. many of them engage in mainstream discipline tactics (time-outs for everything







) and parenting choices i don't agree with (CIO), but none of them spank.


Well, as a drop out I have to agree that spanking is not what's going on among my friends either, although I have friends who did go to college, friends who didn't and friends who still are in school. My husband also dropped out and he is not a spanker, would never spank.

I do know a couple who doesn't have kids, both did go to college and graduated and they do think spanking has it's place, they were actually my neighbors and we would chat about their ideas for their future, including when they are parents. They are dead set on spanking as well as breastfeeding as well as public school.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Talula Fairie* 
I think it's a pretty big leap to take from a study that concluded "college educated people are less likely to spank" to mean "everyone should go to public school." Many homeschooled children go on to college and studies have shown that they are quite smart. I don't think this particular study was saying there is one good way to educate. Per mothering's acticle on homeschool:

http://www.mothering.com/articles/gr...ue-colors.html

I guess to me I work from the assumption that most people (scientists included) are working from a mainstream perspective. I also tend to believe that funding is coming from a mainstream perspective unless otherwise stated.

I googled : "spanking, study, 41 percent of college-educated Americans disapproved of spanking, compared with only 20 percent of those who didn't complete high school"
And got nothing what-so-ever???


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
I guess to me I work from the assumption that most people (scientists included) are working from a mainstream perspective. I also tend to believe that funding is coming from a mainstream perspective unless otherwise stated.

I googled : "spanking, study, 41 percent of college-educated Americans disapproved of spanking, compared with only 20 percent of those who didn't complete high school"
And got nothing what-so-ever???

If they are ALL working from a mainstream perspective how do you explain the positive studies that have come out about homebirth, or the multiple studies cited in the quote I gave you that were positive for homeschooling? Lots of studies have come out to support non mainstream ideals. Google the Jamaican Pregnancy Study sometime.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Of course you are right about that, too







I do not disagree with that, I just said that I assume that is the perspective unless otherwise stated. If the findings present information to the contrary then awesome!


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## umsami (Dec 1, 2003)

The University of Michigan released a report on Physical Punishment in the U.S.

You can read the full-report here
http://www.phoenixchildrens.com/PDFs...discipline.pdf

The executive summary is here
http://www.phoenixchildrens.com/PDFs...ec_summary.pdf

Sadly it says that only about 29% of Americans disapprove of physical punishment by parents.

Nearly 2/3rds of parents of one and two-year olds report using physical punishment.







:

By the time they reach 5th grade, 80% of children have been physically punished.







:

By high school, 51% report being hit by a belt or other object!!!!!!!







:







:

We still have a very far way to go in this country.

It was released March 23, 2009.

They list MANY factors which make a child more at risk for being punished physically... and education of the parents is only one of them. See p. 12

It's very depressing other than the fact that it reiterates the facts that physical punishment leads to kids who behave worse than those who are disciplined in other means.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Talula Fairie* 
Google the Jamaican Pregnancy Study sometime.

That was fun to read about, thanks for recommending it.

But it's funny, even in the articles I read about the scientists who actually did that study site politics, conservatism, and arrogance in the scientific community as reasons why mor estudies like this one don't get much publicity.


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
That was fun to read about, thanks for recommending it.

But it's funny, even in the articles I read about the scientists who actually did that study site politics, conservatism, and arrogance in the scientific community as reasons why mor estudies like this one don't get much publicity.

Well that and the media sucks. The reasons for which a study is being done or why one gets more publicity than another do have to do with our mainstream society most likely. But studies themselves are supposed to be unbiased.

I personally feel that most _reputable and widely accepted_studies are nonbiased. Truly biased studies usually end up being discounted. I'm sure there are exceptions to this as there are to everything.

It's a case by case basis, really. You have to read each specific study and draw your own conclusions. That's the whole point of researching things, to find out for yourself.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Well, that's a nice way to think about things, but I'm sorry, I don't buy it.

I have a lot of skepticism about the validity of mainstream science and the checks and balances of peer review after reading Christine Maggiore's book about AIDS(which I heard about from mothering magazine








How is it that AIDS, which is so big and all mixed up in the science community has bypassed peer reviews left and right but this study about spanking, well, now that must be good, valid ,trustworthy info....?

Not buying it.

And yes, that blinding light is reflecting from _my_ tinfoil hat, and proud of it! My thinking cap, ya might say


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
Well, that's a nice way to think about things, but I'm sorry, I don't buy it.

I have a lot of skepticism about the validity of mainstream science and the checks and balances of peer review after reading Christine Maggiore's book about AIDS(which I heard about from mothering magazine








How is it that AIDS, which is so big and all mixed up in the science community has bypassed peer reviews left and right but this study about spanking, well, now that must be good, valid ,trustworthy info....?

Not buying it.

And yes, that blinding light is reflecting from _my_ tinfoil hat, and proud of it! My thinking cap, ya might say









No, I said it was a case by case basis and that you have to read each individual study and decide for yourself.

My personal feelings about PEER REVIWED AND WIDELY ACCEPTED studies is just that, my personal feelings. You can wear your tinfoil hat all you want.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

And yes, that blinding light is reflecting from my tinfoil hat, and proud of it! My thinking cap, ya might say
I do empathize with a cautious approach towards institutions (be in school, goverment, religion etc.).

But I think it is so important to address the issue of spanking from the view of eliminating this trend from our culture. I don't think it is practical to expect success without the cooperation of institutions. Widespread change must involve the cooperation of major institution policy. Institutions have their own way of recognizing data and "studies" are key to their methods. It just isn't practical to discount studies from a place of distrust. You have to find objective ways to sift data for that which will hold up under scrutiny. Then you can build change upon that foundation, kwim?

For example if a state department manages major funding for public schools, and that department conducts an internal study which concludes that spanking is ineffective as a form of school discipline, there may be a ripple effect from this that leads to legislation that will make spanking illegal in that state school system. Currently over half of the states legally use spanking in public schools. Whether a particular state bans spanking depends on many factors, but undoubtedly, studies can be a critical part of establishing a case against spanking.

In Arkansas there was a study that showed minority students were hit in school at a much higher rate than white students. Previously there wasn't a great deal of debate over spanking in that state. However, the realization that spanking was used as a tool of discrimination/racism by schools towards students was disturbing enough to elevate the issue above an argument over 'discipline' and into the more clear cut language of discrimination. That could put more pressure on schools to ban spanking. If that succeeds, I think it is a good example of how studies can lead to effective change.


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
I do empathize with a cautious approach towards institutions (be in school, goverment, religion etc.).

But I think it is so important to address the issue of spanking from the view of eliminating this trend from our culture. I don't think it is practical to expect success without the cooperation of institutions. Widespread change must involve the cooperation of major institution policy. Institutions have their own way of recognizing data and "studies" are key to their methods. It just isn't practical to discount studies from a place of distrust. You have to find objective ways to sift data for that which will hold up under scrutiny. Then you can build change upon that foundation, kwim?









:

You said it better than I did.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
Maybe college educated people are a bit more savvy about what's politically correct and less likely to incriminate themselves.







Or maybe the magazine was just trying to be controversial to get people to read and also maybe trying to stroke their readership's ego.

Anyway, clearly education isn't making much difference if 59% of college educated people will actually admit to approving of spanking. There are so many more important factors that play into spanking that I am just finding difficult to understand why this stat is even relevant.

It's not that most college kids don't think its okay. Obviously in general there are still a lot of people uneducated in the are of discipline. It is only saying that they are less likely to spank then the high school drop outs. about twice as less likely to think its okay. Thats quite a difference, TWICE as less likely (well statistically speaking) to see spanking as acceptable. Thats a noteable difference, and worth mentioning.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Talula Fairie* 
The actual education you would get on spanking depend on what your major was and what classes you choose to take for your General Education requirements. If you took Sociology (Marriage and the Family) and Psychology like I did, it may be covered. And of course anything on Child Development would probably cover it too.

I'm not sure the exact reasons for the particular connection, but I'd venture to guess that an educated person (college or not) would be more likely to research parenting and read books?

I only finished one year of college and while I technically am a high school graduate, I took a test to get out of high school that is only valid in California. I don't spank, and I consider myself to be an educated person. I did research many aspects of parenting. My entire family is college educated if that makes a difference










I agree, I think that its not about them learning about spanking versus not in school (though I did because I majored in child psychology) however, I think there is a correllation between those who like learning and those who go to college. Someone who likes to learn is more likely to go to college then someone who doesn't like learning. More likely does not mean all people who like learning go to college and all people who hate learning don't go. more likely just means more people from one group will do something then if they had been from the other group. We are not talking absolutes here. We are not talking one persons personal experience, or one city, or one circle of friends (none of my friends spank either - but then again I wouldn't be friends with someone who does! and I jsut tend to "attract" the kind of people who don't so its not even entirely a matter of I WONT be friends with them, just that the kind of personality I am attracted to is usually the same kind of personality that wouldnt hit a child) We are simply talking about one group of peopel being less accepting of a practice then another group of people. Just liek AP mamas are less likely to spank then mainstream mamas. Some AP mamas spank. some mainstream mama's don't. Anyway, thats kinf of a bad example for obvious reasons, but the point is

1) loving learning = more likely to go to college. 2) the love of learning that sparked them to go to college carries over into wanting to learn about parenting 3) making them less likely to approve of spanking.

Its not BECAUSE they went to college that they don't spank. But probably more likely that the kind of person who goes to college is also the kind of person who is less likely to spank.

AGAIN - you can go to college and spank or not go and not spank. All that is being relayed here is that there seems to be LESS people who approve of spanking in one group then another group. I think exploring ALL factors in spanking is useful - even if some influence more then others. We may predict that if more people had a love for learning and a love for reading then they would be more likely to go to college AND more likely not to spank - even if they don't do both - simply because of the love of learning. It's one possibility. No harm in exploring ALL the factors. The more angles we approach it from the more people that can become informed.

This isn't a "you must be stupid if you spank" nor is it a "well obviously I don't spank because I my IQ is bigger then Einsteins" It's simply that "hey, this study points out that the numbers are higher in this group then in that group. Both represent a minority, but this college group is almost TWICE less likely to approve of spanking then this high school drop out group" Yes. Minority, but surely we can see the difference in a minority of 20/100 versus 41/100? (20, 41 = thats a 100% increase)

There are many factors. This is not the be all end all factor. Honestly to me its all relevant though. If someone said to me "3 in 10 people who eat healthy spank while 7 in 10 people who eat junk food spank" that would mean something to me too. Of course it doesnt mean "eat healthy and you wont spank" or vice versa - but we could take that information to further explore other connections: 1) Do unhealthy ingredients make us feel less then our best, resulting in less patience and more liklihood to loose our cool? 2) Do people who spank do so because they don't have enough "time" to parent (the same reason they eat mcdonalds 3 nights a week) etc...

There are a ton of reasons why these numbers may present this way.

Here is where I got the info : though I'd love to know where I can see the actual study!!

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/199...7featureb.html

It was just a blog type entry that was citing another study/article, and the poit of this post wasnt so much debate as it was to find the originally cited article. For all we know, they just made it up, so its kind of hard to discuss this without the actual resource! Can only really discuss it in theory.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Talula Fairie* 
I don't either, but I do when I research the peer reviewed studies they cite.

The article you cite didn't have peer reviewed material. It had three dissertations listed as references, but that isn't the same as peer reviewed material. It also listed Eric Digest which is also not peer reviewed. I have also seen a lot of poorly set up, stereotyping research that I wouldn't use in the teaching program that passed through peer review and was on the education database. Peer review is better than the normal garbage that you can get from wikipedia, but it is still something that needs to be weeded through.


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

Very well said, Super Glue Mommy.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Oooo does anyone remember that study where they were TRYING to prove spanking was okay and found out the opposite? I should have bookmarked that one!

I think its something like 96% of all studies done on spanking prove its harmful. While they may not all be accurate, that is more then studies on most subjects can stay. It's not usually that far in one favor.


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
The article you cite didn't have peer reviewed material. It had three dissertations listed as references, but that isn't the same as peer reviewed material. It also listed Eric Digest which is also not peer reviewed. I have also seen a lot of poorly set up, stereotyping research that I wouldn't use in the teaching program that passed through peer review and was on the education database. Peer review is better than the normal garbage that you can get from wikipedia, but it is still something that needs to be weeded through.

I have stated several times now that it's a case by case basis and you have to read each individual study for yourself.

It's ridiculous to discount the entire scientific community.

That particular article listed several studies that appeared to be peer reviewed to me, although of course not every citation was a peer reviewed study, I never claimed that. In fact, my comment wasn't even referring to that particular article. I was merely saying "I believe Mothering Magazine when they site sources (studies) I feel are reputable." Perhaps I used bad phrasing, but my point is that they don't just come up with information out of thin air.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

it would be nice if they could take the study further and find out what other differences there are between spanking and non spanking families. college education alone doesnt tell us much so i was trying to think of things that you might in people with college degrees that are less common in people without. this is a major generalization and i have no degree and we dont spank but i had children young, do talk about parenting quite a bit, and i am a SAHM... so dont actually fit into these at all but anyways... here they are

the first is could age factor into the study? perhaps people who have a college education are older when they have children and/or they are more likely to have planned their pregnancy thus having more time to prepare?

the second thing i was wondering is could it be that people who are college educated are more likely to discuss parenting choices with their peers which means being exposed to multiple methods as well as having their own methods critiqued?

the third thing is maybe a college degree gives you more job flexibility so that people who have college degrees are more likely to have a job they enjoy, higher incomes, better job security etc so they in turn have a lower stress level


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

Super Glue, maybe you could leave a comment on the bloggers comments page asking where they got the info?


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Here's the original article, "When to Spank: For decades, parenting experts have said spanking irreparably harms kids. But a close look at the research suggests otherwise," which is from 1998 as was the piece on Salon.

Quote:

In a 1997 poll, 41 percent of college-educated Americans disapproved of spanking children, compared with only 20 percent of those who didn't complete high school. Whites were more than twice as likely to disapprove of spanking as blacks, and the rich were less likely to favor the practice than the poor.


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## umsami (Dec 1, 2003)

As the study in question (and article in question are from 1998), I think you all might find the just released report from the Univeristy of Michigan interesting (March 2009).

I know I'm repeating myself, but I think the post got lost.









The University of Michigan released a report on Physical Punishment in the U.S.

You can read the full-report here
http://www.phoenixchildrens.com/PDFs...discipline.pdf

The executive summary is here
http://www.phoenixchildrens.com/PDFs...ec_summary.pdf

Sadly it says that only about 29% of Americans disapprove of physical punishment by parents.

Nearly 2/3rds of parents of one and two-year olds report using physical punishment.

By the time they reach 5th grade, 80% of children have been physically punished.

By high school, 51% report being hit by a belt or other object!!!!!!!
We still have a very far way to go in this country.

*They list* *MANY factors which make a child more at risk for being punished physically... and education of the parents is only one of them*. See p. 12

It's very depressing other than the fact that it reiterates the facts that physical punishment leads to kids who behave worse than those who are disciplined in other means.


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

The thing you need to be careful of with this (as well as a whole bunch of other issues that may arise with the research itself) is that it might not be about EDUCATION or LEARNING AT ALL. It might NOT be about what happens IN college as much as WHO GOES TO COLLEGE. People that go to college tend to have resources. They tend to have parents willing to support them into adulthood (and presumably put a lot into raising them and are continuing to do that). They know how to work and buck the system. They tend to marry later, earn more and have fewer children. They have more options open to them. They came from good schools and got good grades (which presumes that they have a measure of self discipline, have been around "good kids" and all that). They tend to be white (which has all kinds of other societal benefits, unfortunately). In other words, the people going IN to college have all sorts of experiences and resources already that buffer them from the difficulties suffered by high school drop outs.

So, how do you know its "college" that is changing the spanking equation or if it is one (or a combination of) these other socio-economic factors that bring them to college in the first place?

I'm OK with research that makes people uncomfortable IF IT IS DONE WELL, ACCURATE AND THOROUGH AND ACCORDING TO SOLID RESEARCH FOUNDATIONS. This is a random quote from who knows where from who knows what of how it was done or how the researchers came to this conclusion. I'm an academic myself and there is a lot of scary stuff floating around out there and quotes that have the potential to label, harm or target groups need ethical consideration in solid understandings and conservative conclusions.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sisteeesmama* 
I did drop out of high school, thank GOD, and it was not for a lack of interest in learning, no, rather to the contrary, school was KILLING my love of learning, and I have gone on to learn so much out of school.

OT, but I'm totally on the same page as you. It's taken me _years_ to even begin to recover my former love of learning. School just destroyed it. I'm 40, almost 41 - and have only really started to love learning again since I started working with dd (she's homeschooling)...and a little just from being exposed to ds1, who is one of the most generally enthusiastic people I've ever known. One of the reasons - there were many - that I didn't go on to post-secondary was that I was afraid it would smother my brain even more.


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