# "You shouldn't have children!"



## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Last week I took BooBah to a doctor's appointment. My three ran to play, and started playing with another little boy in the waiting room. This little boy was very sweet, and I thought he was being very well behaved for such a little fellow (I'd put him in between BeanBean and BooBah, who are nearly four and 2.5, respectively). Every time he did *anything* other than sit in his chair quietly, his grandmother would start yelling at him and threatening him. The first few times this happened, BeanBean came to stand next to me, or in front of BooBah to defend her. After a few such incidents, he walked up to this woman and said, "You shouldn't have children! You're mean!"







He said it very quickly, and this woman was pointedly ignoring him so I'm not sure if she heard him.

I had absolutely no idea what to do in this situation, and we were called back just then. I couldn't bring myself to disagree with Bean, though; she _was_ mean.







So I guess the question is, how do you explain it to your children when other adults treat children poorly? Do I need to justify that kind of behavior? Should I just wait until BeanBean learns not to always speak his mind, or encourage him to censor his speeck sooner? This is difficult, because I have tried to teach him that it's generally preferable to be honest.







What would you do?


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## momto l&a (Jul 31, 2002)

I am sorry but I am just







: over here

At least hes honest and know how to speak his mind.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Out of the mouths of babes.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Hey! He sounds like an honest kid. I would NOT censor him. I wouldn't back him up and say after him, "Yeah, you ARE mean." but I would be ready to remove ourselves from a situation, iykwim.

For myself, I was glad when one kid called me mean. I sat and thought and realized I WAS being mean...just a nervous first time mom who was telling her kids not to play when we were obviously in an area that was meant for play.







Helped me lighten up and relax.
Then again, I tend to believe children are almost always honest and KNOW when something isn't right, so, I listen rather than get uptight.


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## taz925 (Nov 29, 2001)

I would not say anything after my child spoke the truth like that. I would not correct him not comment further about her behavior. She was being mean and if she heard him, maybe just maybe she will realize what a meanie she was being that day and adjust her expectations.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

I don't know but bless your children!


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I would have told my child it is not nice to say those kinds of things to people especially when you don't know the whole story. later we would have talked about how she may have been mean or something may have happened earlier and she may have been out of patience with the child, and that each family has out and about rules and those don't make someone bad etc.


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## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

Out of the mouths of babes....

I wouldn't ENCOURAGE blatant unkindness towards other people, but all the same...someone had to say it, right?


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## jlpumkin (Oct 25, 2005)

I'm with you OP - I too have found myself in quite a few uncomfortable moments lately. Not so much with dd saying things but trying to explain other people's parenting. Today in line at the store there was a man threatening to slap his son behind us. Dd eyes were as big as saucers and she just couldn't stop staring and checking back at me. It's hard to explain it to your own child to whom the behavior is so foreign. I've been trying to just say that some mommies & daddies just do things differently but that seems to lead to a good v bad parenting discussion that I am not ready to enter into with my 4 yo. I'll be lurking for suggestions here too!


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

I hope this doesn't sound too snarky but I don't blame your kid for doing what he did, and I wouldn't censor it either. He's obviously a very compassionate and empathetic child and that's wonderful, so you've done your job!







It is only natural to stand up and say something when you see an injustice, for both chidlren and adults. Of course, children are going to be much more blunt and too the point. It sounds to me like this lady honestly deserved to hear something like that. I have no sympathy for people that treat other people like crap, especially when it's a child who is the target.


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## DreamsInDigital (Sep 18, 2003)

What a smart kid.







I'm one of those kinds of people who always wishes they had the nerve to say things to mean people.


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

: Thank you for sharing that... dd is only 10 months and doesn't talk yet, but I'm sure she'll be saying untactful truths to others someday soon







:

love and peace.


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## RainCoastMama (Oct 13, 2004)

I dunno, this is a hard one.

While my spirit is applauding your child's outspokenness, my social intelligence is telling me to mirror another poster who talked about putting some dimension on the situation. We don't know what was going on with grandma. We don't know if there had been problems with the kid's previous behaviour - maybe escalating to unmanageability? Who knows. I don't condone my child ever disrespecting anyone else, especially elders, and it was rude, however justified is *seemed* at that time.


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## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

I think it is shameful, a disgrace, and disrespectful that anyone would think for a second that that is okay. It's not okay. Patently not okay. Not to mention, how do you think that might have made the kid with the grandmother feel? Proud? I doubt it. Defensive? Probably. Embarrassed, surely.

I am a wonderful mother most of the time, patient, loving, giving, adoring, proud, gentle, sweet, generous, fun, and let's throw in beautiful and thin, but sometimes, I am running on empty and I am snappy, and I get tired of ignored instructions and I snap some more, and if it happens in public, you can't always drag the kid out to the car for a serious chat and a civilized time-out. I will let my child know in whatever way I have easiest access to (my voice) that I am not pleased, and I demand obediance. Usually, these things occur where there is an added element of chaos, like a store she wants to dart around in, where I feel constant concern for her safety. I'm positive I have come off sounding like evil mother, but, if child is glued to my side, my heart rate goes down, and I don't care. I can continue to shop. I have an adventurous bolter, and shopping is always torture to me (but she loves it, so, I take her).

It's great to applaud the "out of the mouth's of babe's" innocent truth, but, besides the fact that you have kind of left an adult's "job" to the kid (confronting another adult you think is doing something bad) if you really think you have any business commenting at all, you've also exposed your child to HER possible wrath against your child, even if it was a look or a "screw you kid." Kids should not be allowed to "confront" adults like that, for their own safety, and because kids are not adults. Within families, yes, certainly, with their teachers, maybe, but not strangers. What's the woman accused supposed to do or say? I mean, I'd have apologized profusely myself, I don't care what the mother/gma was doing. It's not MY KID'S place to mouth off to her.

Teaching our kids to curb their tongues is a good thing. There are so many differences that kids or you may find "offensive." And they've got to learn to keep their opinions to themselves with strangers.

My daughter is pretty wonderful, socially aware most of the time, but needs regular coralling on what is and IS NOT appropriate social commnetary. IMO, kids need to learn from us sensitivity and compassion... we all know kids can push, push, push, and if you're tired, frustrated, etc., etc, AND you're the grandmother, make those all to the tenth power. Maybe you're going to blow, and unless she's actually beating the kid, or calling him ugly names, I feel it is a "mind your own business" situation. Kids need to learn that their MOMS and DADS will handle any confrontations with other adults.

They will learn from your example how to do so gracefully, tactfully, or forcefully and safely, where applicable. They won't need to have any practice at doing it... when the time comes, you watch, they will mimick the way you did it to a "T."


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viewfinder* 
I think it is shameful, a disgrace, and disrespectful that anyone would think for a second that that is okay. It's not okay.

While I must admit that I'm surprised the first responses were all the way they were, I can't say that I think it's shameful or disgraceful that my son spoke the truth, or that he doesn't live in fear of his elders, especially since that's exactly the kind of thing that his grandparents have been trying to instill in him pretty much since he could move.

Quote:

Patently not okay. Not to mention, how do you think that might have made the kid with the grandmother feel? Proud? I doubt it. Defensive? Probably. Embarrassed, surely.
The kid didn't notice-- he was too busy crying because his grandmother yelled at him for putting a lid on a box. The box was upside down (Bean had set it that way) and the little guy couldn't get the lid on, so he leaned on it and pushed the other side a little bit and then his grandmother yelled at him for "being aggressive" and put him in time out, even though he had done nothing remotely aggressive.

Quote:

I am a wonderful mother most of the time, patient, loving, giving, adoring, proud, gentle, sweet, generous, fun, and let's throw in beautiful and thin,
I had no idea that my weight had anything to do with my parenting skills. Thanks, I really needed to hear that.









Quote:

but sometimes, I am running on empty and I am snappy, and I get tired of ignored instructions and I snap some more, and if it happens in public, you can't always drag the kid out to the car for a serious chat and a civilized time-out.
Funny, because that was exactly what this woman threatened her grandson with just as we were getting called back. She certainly didn't appear to be "running on empty," and she only became snappy after my children asked the little guy to play.

Quote:

I will let my child know in whatever way I have easiest access to (my voice) that I am not pleased, and I demand obediance. Usually, these things occur where there is an added element of chaos, like a store she wants to dart around in, where I feel constant concern for her safety. I'm positive I have come off sounding like evil mother, but, if child is glued to my side, my heart rate goes down, and I don't care. I can continue to shop. I have an adventurous bolter, and shopping is always torture to me (but she loves it, so, I take her).
This was a doctor's office waiting room, and there was *nobody* in it but me, my kids, this woman, her daughter (grown, and she was called back very quickly) and the little boy. It's not like she couldn't see him, though she seemed to interpret every little thing he did as "aggressive," or "uncooperative," or "bad," if he wasn't just sitting in a chair watching television or staring into space.

We all have days when we're feeling frazzled, but I can't say that "I demand obediance," even then. My kids are people, not dogs.









Quote:

It's great to applaud the "out of the mouth's of babe's" innocent truth, but, besides the fact that you have kind of left an adult's "job" to the kid (confronting another adult you think is doing something bad) if you really think you have any business commenting at all, you've also exposed your child to HER possible wrath against your child, even if it was a look or a "screw you kid."
I didn't feel that it was my business to comment, which is why I didn't; apparently, my son felt otherwise. If she had made the slightest move toward him, a look or otherwise, I'd have jumped down her throat. I suppose that on some level, Bean must have known that because he felt safe enough to make his comment in the first place. Maybe he just thought it was important enough to say whether or not he was safe.







I don't think that the failure in my parenting was in the fact that he spoke, but in the fact that I didn't know how to explain the entire situation to him after the fact.

Quote:

Kids should not be allowed to "confront" adults like that, for their own safety, and because kids are not adults. Within families, yes, certainly, with their teachers, maybe, but not strangers. What's the woman accused supposed to do or say? I mean, I'd have apologized profusely myself, I don't care what the mother/gma was doing. It's not MY KID'S place to mouth off to her.
I think that children are people, and that they're entitled to their own opinions, be they about other children, adults, or whatever. In fact, as a child I think BeanBean was uniquely qualified to say that what this woman was doing to another, smaller child was in fact mean. And I wasn't about to apologize to this woman because she was being obnoxious to her charge and my son called her on it. That would be saying that Bean was incorrect in his assessment of the situation, and the fact of the matter is that he wasn't.

Quote:

Teaching our kids to curb their tongues is a good thing. There are so many differences that kids or you may find "offensive." And they've got to learn to keep their opinions to themselves with strangers.
Really? I don't find much offensive, but maybe that's because I'm ridiculously liberal. Bean's always been extremely extroverted, and he asks very blunt questions which occasionally embarass me, but he's never embarassed anyone else. Only two weeks ago, we met a woman with a cane in a store. BeanBean asked, "Why do you walk with a cane?" and I turned purple, but the woman just smiled and started chatting with him; she was glad that he was direct and asking an honest question, rather than staring or being afraid.

The fact is, my son's social skills generally exceed my own. He's not afraid of people all the time, he's never at a loss for words and the idea of striking up a conversation with a stranger in line isn't something that only occurs to him once in a blue moon. I'm not concerned about his social skills at all; in fact I'm sure that he could teach me a few things. The problem I had was that I didn't know how to explain to Bean why she was being so mean to this little boy (and I was there, and she was







). I didn't know how to tell him, tactfully, that some adults are very disrespectful of children for purely selfish reasons, and that some adults don't even try to be respectful of children because they see no reason to do so. What I couldn't explain was that not every adult thinks that it's important to be nice or respectful to children just because they're young.


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## daniedb (Aug 8, 2004)

I'm all for children being uninhibited and self-consciouslessness (wow, now that's a heck of a word), but I also like to think ahead to what will be acceptable when he's an adult. If I am respecting my son, one thing I am is affording him the respect an adult deserves by modeling and teaching what is appropriate and helpful in the sense of the general public.

If an adult said that to another mother/caregiver, wouldn't we all be aghast and agog? I don't expect DH to be self-censored, and those things are going to happen, but I believe it's my responsibility to discuss it with him later, explaining that other families make choices that we don't make, and while it's okay to talk about those choices in private, we should discuss our opinions with our families in private before we choose to say something to the other person.


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## PrairieBohemian (Aug 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viewfinder* 
Teaching our kids to curb their tongues is a good thing. There are so many differences that kids or you may find "offensive." And they've got to learn to keep their opinions to themselves with strangers.

Well I have to disagree here. I respect children as fully-fledged humans who have the right to state their opinions whenever they feeel they must do so. Perhaps the apporoach would not be to "Censor" what is said, but talk to your child about how what was said might have affected the person it was said to. For example, "even though that woman may have been mean, calling her that could have really hurt her feelings etc."

I do not and WILL not force my children to say "please", "thank you" and "sorry" but I do model it as I am a polite person myslef. And guess what? These are some of the few words my 2.5 yr old knows and uses!

Forcing speach or censoring only sets kids up to be liars and people pleasers (liars because if you say "Sorry" without the EXPERIENCE of empathy, then what's the point?). Again, "thank you" is an expression of gratitude and should be said when you connect with the feeling of gratitude.

I don't care how many people my kids will offend on their journey. It is more important that they be free to express themselves and connect with their emotions than become perfectly trained monkeys.


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## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Demand obediance? Eeek.









I think this is a tough situation, while I understand why your son said what he did and that it was probably warranted, two wrongs don't make a right and what he said was mean to the mean lady.

I like what lilyka wrote in her post. Maybe explain later that a lot could have been going on with the lady to make her act that way and that it's not our place to judge.


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## PrairieBohemian (Aug 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viewfinder* 
I am a wonderful mother most of the time, patient, loving, giving, adoring, proud, gentle, sweet, generous, fun, and let's throw in beautiful and thin...

I missed this the first time. OMG, this is so funny! Thank you for making me laugh first thing in the morning. Well I am unkempt with 10-15lbs of baby weight on me so clearly I need to work on that if I want to be an ideal mother!

This sentence just illustrates EXACTLY what I hate: focus on the shell of situations and not the reality. Good manners LOOK good and that's what is soooooooo imporant to so many people. Not to me. World, I'd like the Real Meal Deal, please!


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## Benji'sMom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *daniedb* 
If an adult said that to another mother/caregiver, wouldn't we all be aghast and agog?

Not really.







I've said it before, at least to people I know. Well, more like "That's kinda mean, isn't it?" Because it makes me so sad when adults are relentlessly mean and unkind to children.







I don't think it would be any different if it were a stranger. If you feel passionately about it, why not *say something* instead of just letting the poor little kid suffer in your presence?


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I would talk the incident over with your child. There are some basic values at stake here, and some are in conflict with each other in this story. For example:

1. judging people on the side of merit
2. rebuking people who do wrong in a way that they can hear you
3. sticking up for people who can't stick up for themselves
4. protecting yourself from harsh responses
5. general good manners

Since you have been blessed with this very bright and sensitive son, you can probably just level with him and talk it over. It is possible that the grandmother in the story was just at the end of her rope, or that she was very intimidated by the atmosphere in the doctor's office. So we have to take that into account and judge her on the side of merit (language and concept from Pirkei Avot!) Also, it's possible that rebuking her in such a harsh way could backfire.

On the other hand, it's really great that your son sticks up for people who can't speak for themselves, and you don't want that to stop!

Maybe he would like to talk about what he wished he could have said to make the situation better--that might feel better for both of you.

I'll tell you though--i had an incident like this last week, where I saw a mom acting really harshly to her little girl, and it made me cry. I don't think strong feelings about these things ever go away.


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

I'd be proud of him. I would talk the situation over with him but I don't see anything wrong with him speaking his mind.


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## Qerratsmom (Sep 22, 2004)

I am strong support of respecting ones elders, but I also believe in freedom of expression. I think more people need to stand up and speak out when they see what they perceive as a wrong being done especially during this time in our history....dont' let me get started on politics







:


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## roseselene (Aug 3, 2003)

I truly believe in the "out of the mouth's of babe's" thing..so I probably wouldn't have said anything right there at the time.....but a little later when we weren't infront of the situation (like 2 minutes later, i don't mean hours later) I probably would have said that she could have hurt her feelings or she might have been having a bad day blah blah blah
Amy


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## roseselene (Aug 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viewfinder* 
I will let my child know in whatever way I have easiest access to (my voice) that I am not pleased, and I demand obediance.

Wow! Does your child obey you when you demand this obediance? Any time I have ever been stressed and at the edge and do things like insist that they do this or that,.....that is when they do the exact opposite.
Demand obediance? Na....my kids aren't dogs.








amy


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## mimim (Nov 2, 2003)

If my child said something like that to anyone, I'd have a serious discussion about better ways to communicate and brainstorm constructive ways to express his opinions. He could have said, " I think adults should speak nicely to their children." or "It's ok for kids to play here."

I'd definitely let him know that being rude is not acceptable. "You shouldn't have children" is a very hurtful statement. Teaching kindness is not censorship IMO.

Being mean to mean people is not ok. Sticking up for someone who is being bullied is admirable.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain optimism* 
I would talk the incident over with your child. There are some basic values at stake here, and some are in conflict with each other in this story. For example:

1. judging people on the side of merit
2. rebuking people who do wrong in a way that they can hear you
3. sticking up for people who can't stick up for themselves
4. protecting yourself from harsh responses
5. general good manners

Since you have been blessed with this very bright and sensitive son, you can probably just level with him and talk it over. It is possible that the grandmother in the story was just at the end of her rope, or that she was very intimidated by the atmosphere in the doctor's office. So we have to take that into account and judge her on the side of merit (language and concept from Pirkei Avot!) Also, it's possible that rebuking her in such a harsh way could backfire.

On the other hand, it's really great that your son sticks up for people who can't speak for themselves, and you don't want that to stop!

Maybe he would like to talk about what he wished he could have said to make the situation better--that might feel better for both of you.

I'll tell you though--i had an incident like this last week, where I saw a mom acting really harshly to her little girl, and it made me cry. I don't think strong feelings about these things ever go away.

Thank you so much; this was very helpful.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Could she have been trying to keep the boy near her because (since it was a doctor's office waiting room) she thought that the toys/other kids might make the boy sick?

I always cringe when my son plays with toys at the doctor's office, and would probably assume that some of the other kids waiting for appointments were sick.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

No, she didn't start yelling at him until he started playing with my kids.







: BeanBean and BooBah each got out a puzzle, and he had a puzzle of his own, so the three of them wanted to play together and mix up the pieces. You know, silly kid stuff. I really thought that he was very well behaved the entire time he was there.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy* 
No, she didn't start yelling at him until he started playing with my kids.







: BeanBean and BooBah each got out a puzzle, and he had a puzzle of his own, so the three of them wanted to play together and mix up the pieces. You know, silly kid stuff. I really thought that he was very well behaved the entire time he was there.









I'm not sure I understand -- is this in response to my question? If so, couldn't that still be because of the germ factor? I'd certainly be wary of letting my son play with other kids at the doctor's office (although I'd find a way to communicate that to him that didn't involve yelling at him or making the other kids feel bad).

I realize that you were there and I wasn't, and your instincts about her behavior are probably correct; I'm just offering up a possible explanation.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

eilonwy, your ds was more diplomatic than my dd is. She might have said: "You are not a mommy." Not because it's a grandkid, but because she believes that *real* moms treat their kids with respect. (Although my behavior in the kitchen yesterday might make her think otherwise, but that's another story.)

I don't correct her and she mostly just says it to me (She is not a mommy.)

Honestly, if he hadn't said something directly to the gma, he probably would have asked you about it. "Mom, why is that mean person yelling at that kid and making him "time out" for playing?" Then you're in a pickle.

Captain O': could you talk a little more about judging people on the side of merit? I'm intrigued.


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## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

Ladies, gents, I was being facetious about being beautiful and thin. Unfortunately. I WISH I was, but, I'm not. Not thin, anyway. Or rich. I'm not either. Beautiful--well, that's subjective.

OP, I was not suggesting that your child's behavior was shameful and disgraceful... I was saying that IMO, your allowing/teaching your child that it was okay for him to chide that woman was... shameful. You, not your child. That's how I feel about people IRL who do that, and I'm sharing my opinion here. I'm really sorry, because obviously you are a loving mother who really respects your children, and that is such a good thing. But, I'm just letting you know that's how I would feel if I was a third party sitting in that waiting room with you. I might think the g'mother was a b----, but I would think you were being rude and just as "wrong" as the gmother you are criticizing, but most importantly, you were willing to *endanger* your child serving the god of my child can say no wrong. I don't care how FAST you think you are, another adult CAN hurt your child with words... or a look... or, later, retaliate AGAINST that very child you are acting to protect by criticizing his caretaker.

That's my opinion. I'm not talking about censoring everything your child says, I'm saying, I think it's VALUABLE safety training to teach your child that attacking an adult with words or rocks, is not okay, the same as running across the street is not okay because streets are where dangerous cars are, and one must use a crosswalk, look both ways, etc. Adults can be dangerous streets, and children should be taught to use the crosswalks, so to speak. Look both ways: does mom's face say, "No, honey," or does it say, "Go for it, blast 'em with both barrels kiddo! I'm here to back you up"?

I'm not couching my direct opinion in downy softness. I see that you responded to exactly my same opinions in another person's post in a grateful and accepting way, but, in my post, I'm serving it up with a little pepper, but for your own good, and your child's. If I didn't think it was important to share, I wouldn't waste my time. I'm a mother out there in this world with you, I love my child, and children; I think of them as little people who's opinions count and are worth hearing; they are our teachers in so many ways. But, we are their teachers, too.

I just don't think it's cool... you just don't know what was going on with someone else's family, or how sick--physically OR mentally that g'mother might have been. Maybe she did NOT want to take the kid to the doctor, maybe she KNOWS she cannot handle it well, but she HAD to for some reason--sometimes moms have to entrust their child to their crotchety mother or mother in law. ?? It happens. But she's entitled to raise that kid however she decides for whatever reason as long as it doesn't break the law. And if you felt so strongly about it, YOU, the adult, should have said something to her, not left it to your child. It just exposes your child to adult reaction.

As to your question, all you wanted to know being how to explain it to you child... making some conjecture as to what kind of a person thinks it's okay to be disrespectful to children just because they're little people... just opens the floodgates for your child to make JUDGMENTS about other people based on perceptions that can be absolutely wrong. Conversely, I ask, "What kind of mother thinks it's okay to let her child judge an adult, and announce it to the world?" I'm sorry. I think that's dangerous to a child. And taking a page from your own book, do you really think that just because that other kid was fussing and screaming and whatever he was doing he did not hear your son say that to his grandmother? How do you know what that child heard or picked up on? How do you know that that g'mother didn't repeat your son's words a thousand times in that kids' ears later? You don't.... just be careful. Think it through whether it's a good idea to let your kids call adults on the carpet.

If someone else's child said something like that to me, I would be hard put not to react negatively. I've managed a time or two, to deal with a snotty remark from a kid (about my weight, for ex., or my then, UN-cool car). But it's a real TEST to not blast the kid, or go directly to his parents and tell them what a snot they have for a kid. And in the case of that lady, she obviously had the chops to be mean... I am just shocked that you would expose your child to her potential HARMFUL reaction, and be proud your child jumped in where it was not anyone else's business but the lady and her charge. What precedent is that setting for future incidents where your son sees something he wants to criticize, and he's not insulated from reaction by your presence?

I am ONLY thinking of your child's SAFETY. He can have all of the opinions he wants, and so can you; we do in our household. But, the world is not populated with a majority of crunchy mommas... I do consider myself more a crunchy momma than not... in fact, I have been called "granola mom," by hospital staff when I had my babelet. I'm speaking to you from the same side of the fence, I believe, not from the other side.

My daughter is a very outspoken, expressive, gregarious child. I have always respected her voice from her first look, her first goo-goos, her first cries. I have always allowed her to socialize with adults in the grocery, dr.s offices, etc., under my watchful eye. I pay attention to her responses to people. She is a lovely, friendly, compassionate little girl. Strangers have always magnetized to her--she has the long, cornsilk hair and sweet face and presence that draws all kinds of welcome AND unwelcome attention, and the personality that holds it. She has no hesitation to chatting up "new friends," which I have always allowed. So, I've been through many, many situations with her and adults interacting.

But we don't KNOW all of these people. How many times have adults corrected your child in front of you, or said some wierd thing that just creeps your child out? It happens, wait and see, and I have always jumped in, but AFTER the fact. After the "offender" (as in, you were 'offended' by that woman's treatment of her charge--interchangeable with "bothered," "made uncomfortable by," etc.) has said the stupid or scary thing to MY child. I'd prefer not to have the confrontation, because I'd rather not have my child scared or creeped out to begin with.

There have been occasions where my child has said something that inadvertently hurt an adult, or angered them, and since I allowed my child to speak to them, they figure they've got a right to speak back---and however they want. And that is the danger I am warning you about. If you let your child say whatever they feel like, no matter how ill-mannered in some people's opinion, including in this case, mine, you are opening the door to that adult saying whatever they want BACK to your child. Good luck defending your claims of verbal assault or abuse against them if you had allowed your child to say whatever they wanted. You would just have no position, so, better to avoid the possibility, don't you think?

On "demanding obedience" from my child, in those circumstances where her behavior has stepped over the line and is now endangering her, or irritating me or others too much, I am PROTECTING her. I DO WANT the sound of my "right now!" voice to stop her in her tracks... before the speeding car that she does not see, or the speeding shopping cart she does not predict, hits her. I don't use it often, but I do keep it well-oiled for emergencies. Got to. I want my child to have a long life.

I am a proponent of listening to our children, respecting our children, protecting our children. I think children are so perfectly wonderful as they are born into this world. But, I also believe that we are charged with their care and guidance because we know things they don't. People are complicated, grown-up lives can be stressful and very difficult, and so much is there that cannot be seen... being judgmental about someone who is perceived as "mean," is just as bad as being judgmental about someone who is different-looking.

Maybe this is the answer to your question: "What do I tell my child about a person like that?":

"Son, I just don't know, and some people out there think it is not okay for a child to confront a stranger adult, because they might get mad and say something bad to you. Mommy will say something if Mommy thinks it's a good idea. Why do YOU think that g'mother might have been being mean? Cause your guess is as good as mine."

I find that some of the most sticky things I am asked to explain are made quite simple by asking my daughter what she thinks about it, and admitting to her that I do not know the answer myself. Then we can have a discussion about what to do about such things; what's appropriate to do; what we sometimes WANT to do and why we shouldn't do it; and what we don't want to do and should.

I'm not trying to tell you you're wrong and I'm right, I'm truly only trying to illuminate a view of things you may not have considered deeply... and I feel it's important and was worth my whole morning just now to share.

Respectfully...


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)




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## 2crazykids (Jun 19, 2005)

If it were me with my children watching this situation I would have called my children over and explained to them that this is not the appropriate way to treat any human or ANIMAL, and that this woman is making some poor choices.

We do this quite often, when we see mother's smoking cigs with babes in arm, or thrashing around their kid by the arm in the grocery store, or when someone is mistreating an animal. I always use these moments to TEACH my child how NOT to behave, how parents should not treat their children or anyone for that matter human or animal...

They can recognize these situations for themselves now and they have learned empathy and sympathy for the victims of these abusers...

The fact that your son figured this out for himself is a sign that you are doing a great job mama!


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mimim* 
If my child said something like that to anyone, I'd have a serious discussion about better ways to communicate and brainstorm constructive ways to express his opinions. He could have said, " I think adults should speak nicely to their children." or "It's ok for kids to play here."

I'd definitely let him know that being rude is not acceptable. "You shouldn't have children" is a very hurtful statement. Teaching kindness is not censorship IMO.

Being mean to mean people is not ok. Sticking up for someone who is being bullied is admirable.

I like this distinction.







Making a judgement about the appropriateness of a person's actions in a particular situation can be OK, as can communicating that judgement, but labeling a person "mean" for those actions is generally NOT ok, in my opinion and experience. Gently telling someone that their actions don't seem appropriate in your opinion = good way to communicate and possibly change minds. Rudely telling someone they're mean or that they're doing "wrong" = kinda pointless, and likely to backfire (by creating defensiveness).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ViewFinder*
I'm not couching my direct opinion in downy softness. I see that you responded to exactly my same opinions in another person's post in a grateful and accepting way, but, in my post, I'm serving it up with a little pepper, but for your own good, and your child's.

I find this quote ironic, especially in light of what is posted above, and your stated point that you wouldn't want to expose your child to the risk of a defensive backlash. I do see value in what you're saying (although it also seems that you expect others to value the same things you do, ie, protecting their children from experiencing potentially unpleasant conversation with adults, which others might see as a learning experience, or worth the risk in support of other attributes they value more), but I think you could say it in a way much more likely to be heard. Why is it you seem to take pride in saying it in a way that, by your own ommission, doesn't seem to be very successful in getting yourself listened to?


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## terrordactyl (Jul 19, 2006)

thats cute. don't sensor him we need more people like that in this world. its what will soon change our society


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## daniedb (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:

Benji'sMom
Originally Posted by daniedb
If an adult said that to another mother/caregiver, wouldn't we all be aghast and agog?

Not really. I've said it before, at least to people I know. Well, more like "That's kinda mean, isn't it?" Because it makes me so sad when adults are relentlessly mean and unkind to children. I don't think it would be any different if it were a stranger. If you feel passionately about it, why not say something instead of just letting the poor little kid suffer in your presence?
I knew I should have kept typing, but I always end up with these huge posts with so much blah blah....







:

What I did leave out is that I think it's perfectly appropriate to say something to people who are being unkind/abusive/mean to children. I just think it's more helpful and easier to accept when it's something that we learn to say in a loving, gentle way. I was thinking of an example like, if I were an angry mother, who was verbally lashing out at my kids, would I be more receptive to another mother who said, "You shouldn't be a mother!" or one who came over and said, "I see you're having some trouble with having your children listen to you and you seem frustrated, may I help you?" and then proceeded to model some GD techniques?

Of course, that's waaaay too much to ask of a child, and my whole idea is that I hope to teach Henry that while it's perfectly understandable to have those feelings, and those thoughts, that it would be more helpful to express it in different words, like, "It makes me sad when you talk to your children that way." To me, that would be the ideal honest expression that would be a little less....well, in your face. Of course, children aren't going to parrot just the right thing at the right time, so it's a work in progress, as we all are.


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## thefragile7393 (Jun 21, 2005)

I too think this was hilarious! Honestly though....I think I would have to speak to my ds privately and say that we should be careful of what we say to others; that speaking our minds isn't appropriate in every situation and that once we were away from the woman he could speak all he wanted...etc. I honestly don't know what I would have done for the woman though....since she pretended she didn't hear I would have pretended the same but had she said something...honestly I don't know what I would have said!


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

Wow. Part of me is cracking up and part of me is well... I don't know. I guess for me it would have been something I would have been thinking but too chicken to say out loud.








I think I might have said something after the fact out of ear shot of the other family, maybe said something to the effect of "Sometimes it isn't always a good thing to say exactly what we are thinking. Sometimes it is better to find a "nicer" way of saying such and such" but at 4 that is a pretty big concept and I think expecting alot for your child to think over every thought they have before they speak.
It sounds to me like your little guy was being protective and that is so sweet. Even to the point of standing in front of his sister.
I understand having a bad day, and I get that not everyone is going to be ubber nice all the time, but come on, that seemed a bit exterme. Maybe as a PP said she was pissed about having to watch the kid while her dd was in the dr office. Makes me worry about the kid more, does his mom even know what a nut job grandma is? Make me want to talk to the poor kids mom. LOL









Hugs mama.

H


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## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

"I find this quote ironic, especially in light of what is posted above, and your stated point that you wouldn't want to expose your child to the risk of a defensive backlash. I do see value in what you're saying (although it also seems that you expect others to value the same things you do, ie, protecting their children from experiencing potentially unpleasant conversation with adults, which others might see as a learning experience, or worth the risk in support of other attributes they value more), but I think you could say it in a way much more likely to be heard. Why is it you seem to take pride in saying it in a way that, by your own ommission, doesn't seem to be very successful in getting yourself listened to?[/QUOTE]

You listened. You saw the value. Others agreed with most of what I said because they said the same things in each of their different ways. My second post in this thread is a mile long, my first a half mile. I can't add anything else to that, certainly not a line by line, out of context explanation of what I took a mile to explain already. I think it's pretty clear. I think it's strong. I think it's important. It doesn't matter if others agree with what they think is my philosophy of parenting or manners or safety. It doesn't matter if people LIKE me or find me adequately polite. I just hope that some people find my viewpoint useful in the protection of their children. There are bad people out there who would take things beyond "unpleasant conversation." That's a reality that young mothers may not anticipate... and it's not really educational so much as it is traumatic. If that is something you think you might find useful for your children, I respect that option and redirect my viewpoints to those who find it illuminating, and applicable to their philosophies on this subject. No offense intended.

Respectfully,


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## RainCoastMama (Oct 13, 2004)

...also wanted to mention that your child could have inadvertantly put the other child in danger by inflaming an obviously stressful and verbally abusive situation.


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## Rivka5 (Jul 13, 2005)

You know, if someone were branding a *child* as "bad" based on a ten-minute sample of public behavior, everyone here would be up in arms. If someone were to tell a child that they were a bad person, rather than describing the child's behavior as hurtful (or something), the GD advocates at MDC would jump right in to talk about how misguided that was. So I'm surprised at the number of people who seem to think it's perfectly okay to make judgments like that about an adult.

If this happened to us, my child and I would have this talk:

1. It's very sad to see someone acting that way, and I understand that you wanted to make it stop. You had a good reason to feel that way.

2. When a person is doing something wrong, being mean to them doesn't usually help fix the problem. If you were mad and having a tantrum, and I said "you're a bad kid," would that make you want to do the right thing? Or would it just make you madder?

3. We need to remember that we don't know everything about a person or a situation. When we see someone doing the wrong thing, that doesn't mean that they *always* do the wrong thing. We need to be careful not to assume more than we know.

4. There are probably people who think that me and Papa shouldn't have children, because we don't do things that are important to them. But nobody has a right to decide that except for us.

5. If you think that a kid is being hurt or treated badly, it's important to try to help that kid. You can help by telling me or Papa about it, or another grownup you trust. We'll figure out what to do together.


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

I haven't read all the threads, but if my kid said that to a stranger I would probably not be too happy about it. Even if it seemed like the truth.

I wouldn't say anything further at the time (why overemphasize the situation?) but would probably start talking to my child on a regular basis on the importance of respecting others.

Just because you *have an opinion* about somebody else, doesn't give you the right to tell them about it. If I thought somebody in a waiting room was fat or annoying or smelled stinky or had a bad haircut or voted for the wrong political party or fed their child the wrong substance in a bottle, I certainly wouldn't point it out to them. It would be rude and judgmental and inappropriate. I wouldn't like it if my child did, either.

It's never, IMO, too early for kids to start learning about empathy for others. I would take that experience as a learning opportunity and a good discussion starter.


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

You know what I find ironic is that some of you say you would "never" tell someone they are wrong to their face, or insult them or call them on a behavior because it could be a bad day or you don't know what was really going on with them... yet you have no problem being rude and dogging on the OP for her "lack" of whatever (control of her kid, not talking to him right away, not telling him he was wrong, whatever it is you see as wrong with what she did) none of us where at the doctors office, none of us saw how the grandma acted, none of us know her or her child, yet no one seems to have a problem being disrespectful. She asked an honest question about what she might have done differently... to call her BAD?! To act like she went over and told her kid to be rude to the grandma, wow. Harsh for people who don't think it is nice to be harsh. Plus her kid is 4 not 14 or 24. Cripes! Sure she might need to start a discussion with him about maybe finding nicer ways to say what he feels, but damn. The lady sounded terrible, so much so that her 4 year old felt like he need to stand in front of his own sister. Sure as an adult we all know what we would do (or do we??) but a 4 year old?? Whatever.

Some of you were just plain rude. Why anyone comes to this board to get support and advice is beyond me sometimes. Such snark and disrespect. But it is easy to be rude when you don't actually have to face anyone. Mothering should be a safe place for moms (and dads) to come for support, ask advice and receive good information without having to defend themselves like crazy. All I got from the OP was a request for a future situation. And maybe info on how she could have handled it better. She did NOT come here to be told she is a bad mother (and yeah, that was pretty much said here.)

H


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## eggplant (Jun 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *arboriamoon* 
Well I have to disagree here. I respect children as fully-fledged humans who have the right to state their opinions whenever they feeel they must do so.

I don't care how many people my kids will offend on their journey. It is more important that they be free to express themselves and connect with their emotions than become perfectly trained monkeys.

Wow. I respect children as fully-fledged humans too. And as such, I see part of my job as a parent to teach my child that in fact, while humans may have the RIGHT to state their opinions whenever they feel they must do so, that in general, there are many very good reasons not to do that. That basic courtesy and respect and social graces demand that very often, we keep our opinions to ourselves. I think doing so is a good thing, and one I hope my daughter learns. I *do* care how many peoplel she offends on her journey! I *want* her to be able to interact with other people and have them respond positively to her, and want to be around her. Not because she's being fake or conformist or anything, but because she genuinely likes interacting with those around her, and wants to be able to get along. Telling people off, especially those you don't even know, isn't a very good way to accomplish that.

I find it incredibly ironic that half the posts on these boards are people posting all steamed that some stranger had the nerve to criticize them, or just glare at them, based on a snippet of information, a one-time interaction when the parent or child wasn't at his/her best, or other things were going on, etc, and the other half of the posts are doing just that to others....

If the kid in the OP had been mine, I'd have gently reminded her that we don't know these people, and don't know what's going on with them, and that saying something so harsh based on so little knowledge is not very fair. And I'd have asked her how she would feel if someone said something similarly harsh to her, without knowing her or why she was acting the way she was that day. The same way I tell her that it's not polite to comment on how people look out loud. And I'd agree with her, privately when we were by ourselves and out of earshot of the other people, that that woman had seemed mean to the child, and that I agreed with her that it wasn't a very nice way to treat him, and that I thought it was nice of her to want to stick up for him, but that it still wasn't okay to do it the way she did.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eggplant* 
Wow. I respect children as fully-fledged humans too. And as such, I see part of my job as a parent to teach my child that in fact, while humans may have the RIGHT to state their opinions whenever they feel they must do so, that in general, there are many very good reasons not to do that. That basic courtesy and respect and social graces demand that very often, we keep our opinions to ourselves. I think doing so is a good thing, and one I hope my daughter learns. I *do* care how many peoplel she offends on her journey! I *want* her to be able to interact with other people and have them respond positively to her, and want to be around her. Not because she's being fake or conformist or anything, but because she genuinely likes interacting with those around her, and wants to be able to get along. Telling people off, especially those you don't even know, isn't a very good way to accomplish that.

I find it incredibly ironic that half the posts on these boards are people posting all steamed that some stranger had the nerve to criticize them, or just glare at them, based on a snippet of information, a one-time interaction when the parent or child wasn't at his/her best, or other things were going on, etc, and the other half of the posts are doing just that to others....

If the kid in the OP had been mine, I'd have gently reminded her that we don't know these people, and don't know what's going on with them, and that saying something so harsh based on so little knowledge is not very fair. And I'd have asked her how she would feel if someone said something similarly harsh to her, without knowing her or why she was acting the way she was that day. The same way I tell her that it's not polite to comment on how people look out loud. And I'd agree with her, privately when we were by ourselves and out of earshot of the other people, that that woman had seemed mean to the child, and that I agreed with her that it wasn't a very nice way to treat him, and that I thought it was nice of her to want to stick up for him, but that it still wasn't okay to do it the way she did.


That has got to be the BEST response I have seen on this whole thread. Just because you have a right to an opinion, does not always mean you should ALWAYS express that opinion, no matter what. Sometimes it is best not to say anything.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viewfinder* 
I get tired of ignored instructions and I snap some more, and if it happens in public, you can't always drag the kid out to the car for a serious chat and a civilized time-out. I will let my child know in whatever way I have easiest access to (my voice) that I am not pleased, and I demand obediance.

<snip>

They will learn from your example how to do so gracefully, tactfully, or forcefully and safely, where applicable. They won't need to have any practice at doing it... when the time comes, you watch, they will mimick the way you did it to a "T."

I totally agree with the second quote.

Pat


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

I would NOT censor your child. He felt that something needed to be said to this woman who was being horrible to another child, so he was honest and said what he was feeling. He defended someone who was being hurt. I think this situation speaks volumes about what kind of person he is and what kind of adult he will be -- someone who is open, honest, and stands up for what's right. Don't change him! If only we all felt confident enough to speak up in situations like these...


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

I would not be ok with my child (or me or any adult) telling another human being that they shouldn't be a parent because they are mean.

At work, I watch people justify saying and doing things that hurt another person all the time. Someone was micromaneging you and your collegues, so you put them in their place at a meeting or in a cc'd e-mail. You are just speaking your mind, just standing up for your downtrodden collegues, right?! No way, I am not ok with me or my kids letting ourselves feel "justified" in saying cruel things to someone. There are better ways for work collegues to handle problems just as there were better ways for the OP's child to address the problem. I don't blame OP's child - but I would have used it as a teaching moment. If he felt he should say something (to try to make the situation better for the little boy), it should have been something gentle as oppossed to an insult, something like, "but he is only trying to play nice" or even "I don't understand why you are yelling at him; he is only trying to play nice." Chances are the woman wouldn't have liked to hear this either, but there is a world of difference bewteen hearingteh truth stated gently and getting the truth wraped in a "ohhh, good one" barb.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

I agree that it's good to honor his intentions, but he really *was* wrong to say something like "you shouldn't have children" based on one experience. That is hurtful, and since he's bright I am pretty sure he can 'get' the idea that first impressions do not always make for whole information.

I like what other posters have suggested, in helping him reframe what he'd say. "It's okay to play here." or "It hurts when you talk to him like that." or even "You sound mean. He's trying to play."

I don't blame the kiddo, after all, even as adults we don't have full empathy and don't always edit what we say to reflect that. But this could really be a learning experience for him figuring out (especially since he IS extroverted!) how to speak his mind and not squash his thoughts, while not harming people himself.

Because the statement "You shouldn't have children" IS hurtful, intentionally or not. It really doesn't do him a service in the long run to not learn to recognize that, and to cloud his objectivity and truthful statements with things that are just going to derail into hurtfulness that's not really necessary.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

A wise man once said "He who has the heart to help has the right to criticize." This is the rule I'm going to teach my children.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
Captain O': could you talk a little more about judging people on the side of merit? I'm intrigued.

This is a religious principle (and as such, might belong in Spirituality!) But it's also a personal ethical value. The quote from Pirkei Avot chapter 1, section 6, "Find yourself a teacher, get yourself a friend, and judge every person on the side of merit." Or, maybe you could translate it, assume good about everyone.

Even if you see someone doing, or about to do, something wrong, you can intervene with them in a way that acknowledges their humanness and desire to do right.

For me, difficult situations like the one in the OP are occasions for examinations of basic principles or basic values. Here we have a lot of different values in conflict. We want children who are empowered individuals who stand up for justice, but we also want them to be respectful of other people. We want them to be brave, but we want them to be safe. We want them to act, and not be paralyzed by indecision (at least i do, because i'm always paralyzed by indecision!) but we also want them to think before they act so they can draw on their intelligence.

It's tough. I think that's why the OP brought the question up for discussion. It's really not obvious what people should do in these situations. Some parenting decisions are obvious, like "Don't run with scissors" or "buckle your seatbelt" or "look it up in the dictionary."


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## PrairieBohemian (Aug 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eggplant* 
Wow. I respect children as fully-fledged humans too. And as such, I see part of my job as a parent to teach my child that in fact, while humans may have the RIGHT to state their opinions whenever they feel they must do so, that in general, there are many very good reasons not to do that. That basic courtesy and respect and social graces demand that very often, we keep our opinions to ourselves. I think doing so is a good thing, and one I hope my daughter learns. I *do* care how many peoplel she offends on her journey! I *want* her to be able to interact with other people and have them respond positively to her, and want to be around her. Not because she's being fake or conformist or anything, but because she genuinely likes interacting with those around her, and wants to be able to get along. Telling people off, especially those you don't even know, isn't a very good way to accomplish that.

I guess I come from a pretty radical POV here in that I don't think I need to "teach" my kids anything. Guide, yes. Help them see this from someone else's view, yes. Help them connect with their emotions, yes. Teach them morals, no.

I think as spiritual beings, we are born equipt with kindness, empathy, love and compassion. I don't think these are learned characteristics. However, when children are young and self-absorbed, it is difficult to see these under the ME and MINE.

I think my children should be able to learn and see the effects of their words on others first hand and over time understand the best way for them to interact socially. I just don't believe in manners for the sake of manners. I am very comfortable out and about in society and have feel I conduct myself well. I think modelling healthy social interaction goes a long way and I don't need to tell my kids HOW to behave. (obviously I am not in business/sales)

I'm not expecting anyone to agree with me here or support my stance. I just want to try to give a clearer understand of the philosophy which I am coming from.

Once again, in my initial post, I said I would talk to my child about how his words may have affected this woman and, to agree with other posters, I would remind him that sometimes we aren't seeing the whole picture. I would certainly NOT tell him he was not allowed to say such things to adults or reprimand him in any way.

All this being said, my kids are not yet verbal in this capacity and until I am in the situation, I can't say for sure what I would do.


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## PennyRoo (Dec 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain optimism* 
I would talk the incident over with your child. There are some basic values at stake here, and some are in conflict with each other in this story. For example:

1. judging people on the side of merit
2. rebuking people who do wrong in a way that they can hear you
3. sticking up for people who can't stick up for themselves
4. protecting yourself from harsh responses
5. general good manners

Since you have been blessed with this very bright and sensitive son, you can probably just level with him and talk it over. It is possible that the grandmother in the story was just at the end of her rope, or that she was very intimidated by the atmosphere in the doctor's office. So we have to take that into account and judge her on the side of merit (language and concept from Pirkei Avot!) Also, it's possible that rebuking her in such a harsh way could backfire.

On the other hand, it's really great that your son sticks up for people who can't speak for themselves, and you don't want that to stop!

Maybe he would like to talk about what he wished he could have said to make the situation better--that might feel better for both of you.

I'll tell you though--i had an incident like this last week, where I saw a mom acting really harshly to her little girl, and it made me cry. I don't think strong feelings about these things ever go away.


Gosh, this is such a wise post. I have not read the whole thread but am loving these thoughtful words.

This is an interesting conflict . . .. on the one hand the feelings of being proud of your sweet son for being so bright, and so passionate and brave, and for standing up to others (against a big, scary adult no less!) . . . on the other hand, thinking about when and whether it's important to temper that message. My DD has on occasion said to me, "that's a mean mama!" when an adult has spoken harshly to a child. But since she is quiet around those she does not know, it usually comes out as a whisper and I don't (yet) have to worry about how her message will be received.

And, just wondering (perhaps the poster came back and clarified - sorry; I'll go back and finish reading and perhaps my own question will be answered) . . was that comment about being a great mom AND thin and beautiful a joke?


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *arboriamoon* 
I guess I come from a pretty radical POV here in that *I don't think I need to "teach" my kids anything. Guide, yes. Help them see this from someone else's view, yes. Help them connect with their emotions, yes. Teach them morals, no.*

*I think as spiritual beings, we are born equipt with kindness, empathy, love and compassion. I don't think these are learned characteristics*. However, when children are young and self-absorbed, it is difficult to see these under the ME and MINE.

*I think my children should be able to learn and see the effects of their words on others first hand and over time understand the best way for them to interact socially.* I just don't believe in manners for the sake of manners. I am very comfortable out and about in society and have feel I conduct myself well. _I think modelling healthy social interaction goes a long way and I don't need to tell my kids HOW to behave_. (obviously I am not in business/sales)

I'm not expecting anyone to agree with me here or support my stance. I just want to try to give a clearer understand of the philosophy which I am coming from.

Once again, in my initial post, I said *I would talk to my child about how his words may have affected this woman and, to agree with other posters, I would remind him that sometimes we aren't seeing the whole picture.* I would certainly NOT tell him he was not allowed to say such things to adults or reprimand him in any way.

All this being said, my kids are not yet verbal in this capacity and until I am in the situation, I can't say for sure what I would do.


I just added you to my buddy list.







I 100% agree with this post. Only our son is 5.3 and he is "allowed" to say whatever he feels is true to himself. Just as I am.

Pat


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## PennyRoo (Dec 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viewfinder* 
Ladies, gents, I was being facetious about being beautiful and thin. Unfortunately. I WISH I was, but, I'm not. Not thin, anyway. Or rich. I'm not either. Beautiful--well, that's subjective.

.

OK, phew! I interpreted it as a joke when I read it - glad to see I was right. Sorry - should have read on before asking. I just liked captain optimism's response to much I was compelled to quote it then and there.


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## PrairieBohemian (Aug 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama* 
I just added you to my buddy list.







I 100% agree with this post. Only our son is 5.3 and he is "allowed" to say whatever he feels is true to himself. Just as I am.

Pat

Awe, wow! I just got all shivery! Thank you so much, Pat. I am so used to people thinking I am a wacko that I am pretty much stunned. You just made my day.


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## eloquence (Apr 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy* 
Last week I took BooBah to a doctor's appointment. My three ran to play, and started playing with another little boy in the waiting room. This little boy was very sweet, and I thought he was being very well behaved for such a little fellow (I'd put him in between BeanBean and BooBah, who are nearly four and 2.5, respectively). Every time he did *anything* other than sit in his chair quietly, his grandmother would start yelling at him and threatening him. The first few times this happened, BeanBean came to stand next to me, or in front of BooBah to defend her. After a few such incidents, he walked up to this woman and said, "You shouldn't have children! You're mean!"







He said it very quickly, and this woman was pointedly ignoring him so I'm not sure if she heard him.

I had absolutely no idea what to do in this situation, and we were called back just then. I couldn't bring myself to disagree with Bean, though; she _was_ mean.







So I guess the question is, how do you explain it to your children when other adults treat children poorly? Do I need to justify that kind of behavior? Should I just wait until BeanBean learns not to always speak his mind, or encourage him to censor his speeck sooner? This is difficult, because I have tried to teach him that it's generally preferable to be honest.







What would you do?

Ah, I wouldn't worry too much about it. He was honest and I have a feeling the women needed to hear that.

He was truthful and kind, imo, as he was just very matter of fact.

I wouldn't make a lesson out of it or try to censor his speech. I would just watch in the future if my child was starting to use truth as a way to be unkind to someone. But in this situation, I wouldn't do anything about it. He doesn't sound unkind at all, just honest. And honesty is good.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eloquence* 
Ah, I wouldn't worry too much about it. He was honest and I have a feeling the women needed to hear that.

He was truthful and kind, imo, as he was just very matter of fact.

I wouldn't make a lesson out of it or try to censor his speech. I would just watch in the future if my child was starting to use truth as a way to be unkind to someone. But in this situation, I wouldn't do anything about it. He doesn't sound unkind at all, just honest. And honesty is good.

Honesty isn't black and white because the words we choose are not black and white. Words are choices.

I would say that there is nothing "honest" or "truthful" about the statement that this woman shouldn't have kids because she is mean. Because the words form in a child's head/mouth does not make them somehow "true" or "honest." If words like that formed in my head when I watched a mother repeatedly scold her child for doing nothing, I would not think "that's the truth," rather I would think "that's a flawed way to characterize the situation." Had the Op's ds said "I think you are being mean to your little boy," he would have gotten closer to the truth here. Instead, he exagerated.

I have a mother-in-law who insults people in the name of "telling it like it is," and "just being honest." Everything she says could be said in words that both are more accurate and more humane.


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

Ok again... KID IS 4 YEARS OLD! Bright, I am sure, but 4 none the less.
And honestly unless it was you in that situation with your four year old and a crazy woman yelling at her kid, it is hard to say you wouldn't feel that that statement is true.
Helping him learn better phrasing, but over all, the boy saw what he saw. He saw a big adult being mean spirited to a child enough to make them cry. To him that person shouldn't be a mommy, because it seems in his world (which is so wonderful that he gets this) mommy is a nice calm loving person who talks to you and loves you. What it says to me is that that kid has got a great mama and a good since of what makes a good mama. So maybe as an adult you can see past a bad day, or a trying situation, but as a four year old... well you see what it is, a big person using their power and size to treat a smaller helpless person like crap.

H


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## eggplant (Jun 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaofthree* 
Ok again... KID IS 4 YEARS OLD! Bright, I am sure, but 4 none the less.
And honestly unless it was you in that situation with your four year old and a crazy woman yelling at her kid, it is hard to say you wouldn't feel that that statement is true.
Helping him learn better phrasing, but over all, the boy saw what he saw. He saw a big adult being mean spirited to a child enough to make them cry. To him that person shouldn't be a mommy, because it seems in his world (which is so wonderful that he gets this) mommy is a nice calm loving person who talks to you and loves you. What it says to me is that that kid has got a great mama and a good since of what makes a good mama. So maybe as an adult you can see past a bad day, or a trying situation, but as a four year old... well you see what it is, a big person using their power and size to treat a smaller helpless person like crap.

H


Well, my daughter's only five, and she is certainly capable of understanding that her words can hurt people, just as she gets hurt by others' words. She's also capable of understanding that seeing one interaction, one period of time of people we don't know, doesn't tell the whole story at all. Just like she can tell me or others when WE have missed some information by coming to conclusions based on not knowing the whole picture. She may not use the same phrasing I'm using here, but she certainly expresses the same concepts, and was doing that at age four also. So what I said, at least, still stands, for me: I'd be happy she understood that the way the woman was treating the child was not good, and that she wanted to stick up for him. I would NOT be happy at the way she chose to express that, because I feel that it is incredibly presumptuous and obnoxious to tell someone she "shouldn't have children" based on observing a small segment of time of poor interactions with a child, and because of what I said earlier about wanting her to be able to use good manners and social graces and respect and all, just as I would want others to use the same in their interactions with her.

ps - thanks Tinkerbelle!!


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

presumptous and obnoxious... from a 4 year old. Wow! That is serious, I mean you really think that a 4 or 5 year grasps something that much? That seeing an adult being really mean to another smaller child wouldn't make them think that maybe that person is mean? But I guess not, I mean we wouldn't want children going around actually forming thoughts.
What is it here? I understand that people have bad days. I get that I too have had a bad day and I am sure I don't look like the shining example of motherhood. I may look like a mean mom, or someone who shouldn't have kids. Hell, I feel like it too. But I get that an ADULT can make a much clear assessment of a situation, see that maybe it is a bad day, see that maybe grandma is old, tired, pissed, whatever. But I truly believe that the OP's son was stating what he saw as a fact. With out the wisdom and insite of an adult. Knowing what he knows about the world. I don't think he was being mean to just be mean. He said what he felt.
I guess we will continue to live in a world where people "play" nice don't confront wrongs when they are right in their face. Because we are afraid to say what we see when it is wrong. At that moment that 4 year old little boy saw someone who at that moment shouldn't have been a mommy. Right or wrong, deep thoughts on it or not, looking into the situation or not, being presumptuous and obnoxious and all.. he saw what he saw, he felt what he felt.
If some of you choose to keep your kids quiet and demand obediance, be shamed by their innocent assessment of situations, and find it all disgraceful, then do that.I for one will help my children learn ways to say what they feel, and that it is OK to see something and think that it is wrong and to SAY SOMETHING about it. But that is me.

Hugs to the OP
I am outta here, you all are making my bp rise.

H


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

WOW







I am absolutely floored this thread is so huge and so controversial.









WOW Yes, I'd love to teach my kids discretion and tack but not at the expense of their integrity. The woman was mean. She was abusive to a child. What happened to all the righteous AP moms here. Do you turn a blind eye when you see abusive situations b/c then you become complicit. I STILL







to that child b/c he called out the situation correctly. My Goodness, I don't want to teach my children to lie with their words or their actions when they see something morally wrong. Yes, I as an adult would have phrased it differently but that's b/c I AM an adult. ANd, yes, if the situation had been potentially dangerous, I'd teach my son to walk away and call 911.

Wow, I am really surprised so many value etiquette at such an expense.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *arboriamoon* 
I guess I come from a pretty radical POV here in that I don't think I need to "teach" my kids anything. Guide, yes. Help them see this from someone else's view, yes. Help them connect with their emotions, yes. Teach them morals, no.

I think as spiritual beings, we are born equipt with kindness, empathy, love and compassion. I don't think these are learned characteristics. However, when children are young and self-absorbed, it is difficult to see these under the ME and MINE.

I think my children should be able to learn and see the effects of their words on others first hand and over time understand the best way for them to interact socially. I just don't believe in manners for the sake of manners. I am very comfortable out and about in society and have feel I conduct myself well. I think modelling healthy social interaction goes a long way and I don't need to tell my kids HOW to behave. (obviously I am not in business/sales)
.









:


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

There are different perspectives of "truth". When one speaks his truth, others may or may not have the same perspective of "truth". Truth is not an absolute. It depends upon the cultural context and experience of he who is perceiving, "truth" is defined by our "filters". Many adults, as well as children are unable to perceive other's truth as valid. That is not unique to young children. Perhaps, children actually are more in touch with their feelings in relation to their observations. Most of us have been "taught", scolded, admonished, hushed, silenced, punished even for speaking from our feelings. I certainly was. As an adult, I am relearning to *listen* to my feelings, my underlying needs and choose _how I want to perceive_ what I observe. This self-awareness is beyond a young child's capacity to articulate with empathy, gentleness and diplomacy, imo. Their self-awareness can be oppressed, redirected, discounted, or supported with validation AND sharing our more experienced perception that there is "more than meets the eye".

I have found the NVC template to be a useful tool of communciating my observations, feelings, needs and empowering me to make a request of others. In the OP, I would help my child to see that the grandma appears to be upset, sad, stressed, worried, etc. I would validate the child's observations and feelings without judgement 'The boy is crying, you sound like you feel sad that he is not able to play. You wish that he could play while he waits and that you'd like to play with him too?' By validating the child's experience and voicing a context to his observations, we empower the child by *modelling* compassion for his feelings and needs AND compassion for the grandmother's feelings and needs, in addition to compassion for the feelings and needs of the little crying boy. It doesn't have to be an either/or: grandma's feelings trump the crying boy and OP's son, *OR* OP's son's "truth" trumps the the feelings and needs of others.

We can validate each's truth while maintaining our own, without *imposing* our view of the situation that the child need be "respectful" to elders. When we model *how* to respect other's needs while honoring our own, they can observe and incorporate these skills. When we impose "politeness", they experience and learn _imposing their own_ view of a situation on others. That feels very invalidating to the person whose feelings are not being acknowledged, imo.

If the goal is that the child's opinion not be imposed, we can't impose our own opinion and believe he will learn to do what we say, not what we do.

Pat


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaofthree* 
If some of you choose to keep your kids quiet and demand obediance, be shamed by their innocent assessment of situations, and find it all disgraceful, then do that.I for one will help my children learn ways to say what they feel, and that it is OK to see something and think that it is wrong and to SAY SOMETHING about it. But that is me.

yes, because that is the choice here - applaud a child telling a woman she shouldn't have kids or keep the child quiet and obediant, shamming their innocent assessment of situations and teaching kids is it not ok to say something when they see something they think is wrong. yep, choose one or the other cause that is the choice at hand

or we can all google "staw man"


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BusyMommy* 
Wow, I am really surprised so many value etiquette at such an expense.


yep, it is etiquette at any cost that we value.

again, google "staw man"


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## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaofthree* 
I guess we will continue to live in a world where people "play" nice don't confront wrongs when they are right in their face. Because we are afraid to say what we see when it is wrong. At that moment that 4 year old little boy saw someone who at that moment shouldn't have been a mommy. Right or wrong, deep thoughts on it or not, looking into the situation or not, being presumptuous and obnoxious and all.. he saw what he saw, he felt what he felt.

If some of you choose to keep your kids quiet and demand obediance, be shamed by their innocent assessment of situations, and find it all disgraceful, then do that. I for one will help my children learn ways to say what they feel, and that it is OK to see something and think that it is wrong and to SAY SOMETHING about it. But that is me.

Hugs to the OP
I am outta here, you all are making my bp rise.
H

When I said something about "demanding obedience," from MY child, I was putting myself in the role of the mean g'mother, who was demanding obedience from her g'son. I think the repeated quoting me on it, out of context, the term has been sloshed over the fence completely to suggest that it was being proferred that someone in OP's position should "demand obediance" from her little four year old son; to not let him express himself naturally; to stuff his opinions.

That was just not what I said, and not what anyone else was saying here, either. No one has suggested demanding obedience and opinion-stuffing from their children.

We're talking about judgements, rude behavior, children and strange adults interacting safely for the children. In just a year or two, a four year old's judgments and mouthing-off incidents are going to rise... and it's going to be harder to alter, if you are of a mind to do so. If not, good for you. I hope I don't have to deal with a mouthy kid. Not that all kids are the same. My child came into this world with more compassion than most... that's her genetic, astrological makeup. But not all children are so. Some need their people to give them more to think about in that area.

Also, no one here, as far as I can see, is getting down on this innocent, darling Champion of the Underdog child for feeling the way he did, or SAYING it. I didn't say it before, but let me say it now, albeit perhaps too late: This boy is a little hero in becoming, and what a lovely little man he was being. His daring, courage, righteous observations are impressive. (But socially unacceptable in my opinion.)

What is being said, or let me say, what I'M saying is, I think that this child would be served to learn that this type of outburst is not nice. And the mother and mothers who think it's fine to let their kids hurt whoever they hurt on their journey to figuring out manners on their own, would do well to consider that adult strangers that they meet up with in the world are not all going to subscribe to your views on parenting, and in fact, could be people who don't like children at all, or only like their children. And, where it is wonderfully crunchy and all that stuff to use such an incident to share your opinions about what's right or wrong about someone else's behavior to your child after the fact, or right then and there, if your child is rude to someone else, and they are too young or ill-behaved to know to apologize yet, then I think you should apologize for them, so that the offended party is addressed, and, what a great example to set for the child: apologizing for being impolite even if you felt "right."


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

viewfinder - I don't know if "rude" is the right word. From the best of emotions (empathy, outrage at oppression of the small, sadness) what the op's boy said was "cruel" and "mean." Rude is rude - not a terribly big deal. Telling someone with a child that they shouldn't have children because they are mean is beyond rude. We are in the relam of cruel. That the little boy didn't intend to be cruel and that the littel boy was acting on teh best of motivations doesn't change that fact that what he said was cruel.

We often don't get a response from the cruel things we say to people. I recently recieved a really mean (really mean) e-mail from a colleague angry with me for legititmate reasons. I cried and cried, and yet I never reacted to her (either in person or in e-mail) to avoid escalation. This woman also didn't react - maybe because she didn't hear, maybe to avoid escalation (the OP herself said that she would be all over the woman had she reacted negatively to her dc). I would defineily talk to my children about the pain cruel words can cause, even cruel words that come from a good place. Letting them find out on their own that their cruel words have the power to hurt people may not work - when people are hurt the most they protect themselves by turning away and not showing a reaction. I would guide my child - I would talk to him about what he siad and why it was an exagerated (and cruel and hurtful) assessment of the situation. I would also talk about alternative things he could have said to the woman, things more accurate and more fair (such as "I think you are being mean " - which is rude yes but cruel no) or better ("it makes me sad and angry that you keep yelling at your littel boy") or even better ("why do you keep kelling at your little boy").


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viewfinder* 

What is being said, or let me say, what I'M saying is, I think that this child would be served to learn that this type of outburst is not nice. And the mother and mothers who think it's fine to let their kids hurt whoever they hurt on their journey to figuring out manners on their own, would do well to consider that adult strangers that they meet up with in the world are not all going to subscribe to your views on parenting, and in fact, could be people who don't like children at all, or only like their children. And, where it is wonderfully crunchy and all that stuff to use such an incident to share your opinions about what's right or wrong about someone else's behavior to your child after the fact, or right then and there, if your child is rude to someone else, and they are too young or ill-behaved to know to apologize yet, then I think you should apologize for them, so that the offended party is addressed, and, what a great example to set for the child: apologizing for being impolite even if you felt "right."

This touches strongly on the huge discussion going on here to define MDC's official stance on gentle discipline and child abuse. I believe that every child has the right to an environment filled with respect and tolerance of their developmental stage in life. This woman was disrespectful and, in many opinions, guilty of verbal abuse. Maybe the OP should have gently said to her son, "let's not use those words but --to the G'ma--yes, you seem angry at your g'son, I'm so sorry, he seems like a lovely child." That child, or any child, should not learn (and see modeled) that we keep our mouths & hearts closed when we see injustice. The OP could've helped him to rephrase it. If she was worried about his safety, report it to the nurse or 911. I would never make my child apologize for speaking in defense of another being.


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## Missinnyc (Aug 21, 2003)

Quote:

Being mean to mean people is not ok. Sticking up for someone who is being bullied is admirable.
ITA.
I also agree that this woman's behavior was unacceptable- if she was truly being verbally abusive or mean, that's unacceptable. But letting a child fight your battles isn't cool, either. If what she did was abuse, then you should have stopped it.
Even if it was, this was not a productive or kind way to diffuse the situation or help the little boy. Teaching your son that we should stand up for abuse is admirable, but not with cruelty and insults. There are many things he could have said, and his age is no defense. My 4 year old knows what's rude and what's hurtful. That grandmother is just as deserving of love and respect as her grandson, whether she's a jerk or not. She's a human, and deserves civility and kindness, or she'll never be kind herself.


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## aisraeltax (Jul 2, 2005)

i woudl have probably chuckled inside at my son's response to the situation, but like a few others have pointed out, i would have probably spoken with him later.
i do not advocate deference to elders or authority soley based on their position. i feel there are too many in that category who are abusive to children for me to allow my children to trust "positions". however, there are other things that i may have done in that situation and perhaps your child could have done, such as remove yourself from the gm's presence (if that was possible).
i dont do well with being around ppl who are authoritarian with their children. it really freaks me out. i would probably talk to my son and explain that the person was not mean, but what she was doing was mean. i would have probably discussed alternatives (i think its ok if my kid says "mom, i dont want to play here anymore b/c that woman is beign mean"). is that much different? probably not, but at least he is talkign TO her, but to me.

i cant stand hearing stories like this.


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Now we're talking about child abuse? According to the OP, the woman was yelling at the kid.

Now, that may not be your particular style... but I think calling her a child abuser is pushing it.

Call 911?! Please, if I called 911 every time I saw somebody yelling at a kid I wouldn't be able to do anything else.

Look, I try very hard not to yell at my child, but on a really bad day I can snap. Who knows, maybe the grandmother was at the doctor's office with the child because the child's mom (aka her daughter) was deathly ill or something. You just don't know.

I think people are making a bit more out of this incident than it was.


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

nak. Okay, so I've given this story quite a bit of thought since it was posted... and ITA that the OP's ds is admirable, but needs to discuss kinder ways of sticking up for what's right. Questions such as "how did your words possibly make the gma feel?" and "what are some other words you could have used in this situation?" would be appropriate.

love and peace.


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## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BusyMommy* 
This touches strongly on the huge discussion going on here to define MDC's official stance on gentle discipline and child abuse. I believe that every child has the right to an environment filled with respect and tolerance of their developmental stage in life. This woman was disrespectful and, in many opinions, guilty of verbal abuse. Maybe the OP should have gently said to her son, "let's not use those words but --to the G'ma--yes, you seem angry at your g'son, I'm so sorry, he seems like a lovely child." That child, or any child, should not learn (and see modeled) that we keep our mouths & hearts closed when we see injustice. The OP could've helped him to rephrase it. If she was worried about his safety, report it to the nurse or 911. I would never make my child apologize for speaking in defense of another being.

Yes, I think your suggested approach would be a good one in the OP's circumstance that day. And no, I wouldn't make a 4 year old apologize for something he didn't understand either. I myself would have apologized to the woman on his behalf, perhaps surrepticiously so my son wouldn't feel I wasn't in his corner, but some acknowledgement to that woman to make my position clear: that making mean and cruel comments is not something I am condoning and I AM SORRY that my child did that to her.

Call 911 or the nurse? To fix damage? I'd rather prevent it, myself. Nurses... yeah, not too many I can think of who'd scurry out to a waiting room to referee a dispute between parents of patients. 911 Dispatcher: "See the woman... one's child told the other one that she shouldn't have children, and she told the boy to mind his own business, and his mother told the lady not to speak to her son that way, and the other lady said, he spoke to me and I'll say whatever I want, and then the boy started crying because he was scared his mother was going to get in a fight, and he said something else, and the mothers started calling each other names, and now the second one has the first one in a headlock and three kids are screaming and crying. CPS will meet you on site."

PP: I don't think we are talking about just this one situation at this point, but so many situations like this one. OP doesn't need to feel this is about her or her son anymore. It's about how we each define gentle discipline, courtesy, etc. I think it's presenting some useful, instructive dialog both ways.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

: This thread has really taken on a life of it's own. For the record: I posted because I felt that I had handled the situation poorly (by completely ignoring it) and was wondering what else I might have done to handle things more appropriately. I saw a conflict-- the desire to encourage my son to tell the truth and stand up for what he believes in versus being cruel to others simply because they have been (in his estimation) cruel first. I did think that what he said was cruel, and I was shocked. I couldn't laugh, but I also couldn't disagree with him. I thought that he was correct, if lacking tact, in his assessment of the situation.

I'm sure that we've all been in situations where we felt that we could have handled things better than we did at the time, and I would hope that most of us have a support network to help us work through these things so that we're better equipped to handle them in the future. I happen to have no friends IRL; this is my support network.







That's all the post was-- I just wanted some ideas from different eyes. It's difficult to gain perspective when you're in a situation, especially when all you can think is, "Gee, I really didn't handle that too well," you know?


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I think in your position I would have ben to shocked and embarrased to say anything. I probably would have stammered an apology and whisked my kids off somewhere else.

as for what i would have said to my kids I would have just told them that that was not a nice thing to say regardless of if he felt she was being mean but that he can always tell you how he feels. he is 4 (almost 4 - hes just a efw weeks older than Ava isn't he . . ?) tact is pretty vauge to them. Ava would still blurt out things like "wow, who stinks?!" or "holy cow!!! That is one big belly you got there?" fact? yes. appropriate? not for a second. The best you can hope for in these situations is that you have the oppritunity to teach them a more apropriate way to express themselves for next time and that some things, regardless of how true are hurtful and should not be said.


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## primjillie (May 4, 2004)

You are all right, this has been an interesting discussion! However, if all the grandmother did was yell at the little boy, wouldn't almost everyone here be guilty of the same thing? Just because you might do it at home instead of out in public, doesn't make it any better. Should anyone who yells at their children be told they shouldn't have them?


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## oneKnight (Aug 4, 2006)

Adults should be adults, all the time. It's not right to take it out on the kid just because you've had a hard day. Sure, that's hard to do. Adults take things out on kids because they know they can't "get away" with taking things out on other adults. It's just like being a bully, pick on the one who can't fight back.
Just because you only saw one thing and it might have been the result of "x, y & z" doesn't make her being mean & overcontroling RIGHT.
The boy was correct to call her mean, IMO, there is no reason to make-up excuses for what the grandma did.
The ONLY reason I ever hold my tongue in social situations is because of my job. The rest of the time I let people have it when they treat others badly. By the time a 4-year old grows up to hold a job, he will be able to judge for himself when he has to hold his tongue and when it's OK to express your opinion. He will be able to weigh the possible consequences (loss of job for example) and make a decision.
Honestly, he's not going to learn if he never gets to experience someone's reaction to his comments. On the one hand though, 4 years old is a little too early for bad reactions/situations, but on the other hand again, I always say if you're "mature-enough" (or whatever) to do "whatever is in question" than you're gonna hafta be mature-enough to live with the consequences.


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## *Erin* (Mar 18, 2002)

interesting thread. this actually has happened to me before. my 4 yr old dd, last year, when she was 3, ran up to a woman in the process of smacking her very small toddler's behind and told her she shouldnt do that to him and that she was a bad mother. the mother stopped her hitting and looked gape-jawed at me first, and then at dd and told her it was none of her business. the spanking didnt continue, however, and i called my dd over immedietly and had a talk with her about it. she was reacting in a deep, gut-feeling way, to try and stop a child from being physically injured-how she saw the situation. i acknowledged her feelings, empathized with the child being hit, praised dd's courage and her truthfulness, and then we discussed the term "bad mother" and how loaded and hurtful it is. i gave her some alternatives to the reaction she had, where she was still able to say something or do something to help.
i think it's important to empower our kids to confront injustice as they see it. i don't believe in advocating for the abuser over the abused. i do believe in empathy. we've always discussed empathy, my dd understands people make choices that are not always the best ones, or the kindest ones. she also understands it hurts to be struck and it's unbearable for her to see that happen to a person her size.
im torn over what exactly is the right thing to tell her to do. i am not torn over the fact that it's not ok to watch a child being abused, be it verbally or physically. i myself have intervened on lots of occasions. it's uncomfortable, but i've had several of those times turn into very good discussions where i know some change was made.
i worry for her safety too. it's not safe to jump into the middle of a physical altercation. i worry she may grow up and try that and be hurt.
i don't know.
it's a tough issue.


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## Miajean (May 16, 2005)

: Stupid rudeness of old people.








My father says age and respect do NOT go hand in hand, just as power does not mean justice, and good manners can be had in any station in life.

So that said, when an ADULT behaves with lack of self discipline, short tempered rudeness, and careless manners then a child making a point of telling said adult they are lacking manners is no less then common courtesy. Perhaps tone of vioce and chioce of words should be considered, but ....censorship? in light of parenting with all due fairness, honesty, and good manners teling someone they are shameful is dutiful if they are behaving as such.

I am honest in such matters.
Bad tempered ill mannered people are shameful, they are short circuted and proud of it often, they have excuses for thier behavior. When I behave this way in PRIVETE with my husband we apoligise immediately towards one another, in public it is shameful, no manners. HELLLLLOOOOO mean old people need to know thier experiences and their pain at lifes hand they may be carriing is not someone elses fault, anyone in a position of power over a child should be able to find a creative kind, gentle discipline technique that works, not threats, verbal abuse, or ignorance. For crying in the rain, if you're not happy then don't make someone else worse!!!

Your child was cool


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## Meg Murry. (Sep 3, 2006)

Quote:

Every time he did *anything* other than sit in his chair quietly, his grandmother would start yelling at him and threatening him. The first few times this happened, BeanBean came to stand next to me, or in front of BooBah to defend her. After a few such incidents, he walked up to this woman and said, "You shouldn't have children! You're mean!"







He said it very quickly, and this woman was pointedly ignoring him so I'm not sure if she heard him.
I think BeanBean's impulse to protect his sister (and probably the other child too) is admirable.

On the issue of telling the truth, we seem to be divided on our notion of what constitutes "truth." Unlike some posters, I do believe there is an objective truth, but that, like the parable of the six blind men and the elephant, we only have a small part of it at any given time. I think he told the truth of his opinion, and I, like you, am not entirely sure I disagree with his assessment of the woman's character.

I believe this business of telling children or others "not to judge" is absurd silliness: we all _judge_, and we _should_ judge, and keep judging because our judgment is the greatest gift of the rational mind. What I would certainly say (to a child or anyone else) is to _keep on_ judging and not stop; that is, keep getting data and keep revising your original judgment as necessary rather than coming to a final conclusion and walking away.

Sure, maybe this woman was having a bad day; however, that does not _excuse_ her behavior to the child; it only _explains_ it. She certainly, in the moments BeanBean observed her, _was_ being "mean."

The only issue I have, if BeanBean had been my child, would be this: Despite the fact that what he said was certainly valid given the evidence, it was a hurtful thing to say, and I'm fairly convinced that many important messages to others can and should be communicated, but without adding to the hurt of the situation. For what it's worth, I don't believe BeanBean's purpose was to hurt her feelings; the sense I got was that he spoke out of the righteous indignation of the moment.

Were he my kid, I would've taken him privately aside (like in the doctor's examination room) and said, "First of all, I totally agree with you; she _was_ being mean. Second, I applaud you for standing up for the other kid and for BooBah. How do you think your statement made her feel?" I'd then proceed from there and move the conversation in the direction of trying to work out or imagine a way in which the information he wanted to communicate was communicated less hurtfully, a kind of "replay" of the conversation and practice for the future. I know there's sometimes a value in shocking someone to see the truth of their behavior by using blunt speech, but it's always a risky proposition because most of the time, it doesn't work: people tune it out and the message goes unreceived.

Oh, but for what it's worth, this is all said from the luxury of my living room where I can be objective and dispassionate. If I were actually IN the doctor's office, I probably wouldn't have known what the heck to say either.


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