# Kids left alone in the car



## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

I know many of us have seen this, and I wonder if I did enough, and what others have/would have done in a simialr situation.

I was loading my groceries into my car a few days ago and I heard kids' voices yelling and saw two kids climbing around in a parked minivan with no adult. They were probably about seven or eight, a brother and sister, and they were just playing in the car. The windows were rolled down a bit. The car was not parked close to the supermarket entrance, and it's a big supermarket, not a little grocery store. Not that it would have been okay if the car was closer, but thought I'd mention that.

Anyhow, I stood there for a bit looking to see if a parent came to the car, because I was going to say something. Nobody came and after a few minutes, another woman parked her car, noticed the kids, and we were both standing there saying how wrong it was and that we should do something. This other woman went up to the car and said, "Honey, is your mom grocery shopping?" and the girl said, "No, she just ran in to get milk."

Anyway, the other woman had just arrived and I needed to get my cold stuff home, so she said she would go to the manager and ask them to make an announcement or something. I was so upset driving home thinking I should have gone in myself. I just wanted them to make an announcement, have the mom come flying to the customer service desk terrified that something happened to her kids, and then tell her, "Of course you're worried, because deep down you know it's not truly safe to leave them there!"

I'd be willing to bet money that if I had approached that car and said, "Hi, kids, I just met your mom in the store and she's going to be longer than she thought, so she asked me to bring you guys inside to her," they would have come with me, a total stranger. I wouldn't actually do that, but it would have been tempting just to prove a point.

I hope the other woman was successful at getting a message to this mom.

What would you have done?


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

I am going to risk getting flammed here and shunned, but I have left my kids in the minivan for a minute while I run in to get milk. I usually take the baby and the 3 year old, but sometimes they are snoozing in the van and the older kids are there and I just rush in and get milk or water or bread.
I remember when my mom would do that, leave my brother and I in the car while she got stamps or went into the bank or grabbed some milk or what ever.
If we have been out doing chores and the kids have had it I let them read in the van.
Why would you WANT to freak someone out? My gosh. I can't imagine. You have no idea what she was even doing. If you were concerned stay next to the van and wait, but to call her up and give her a hard time...
I don't know. All I know is that being a mom isn't as easy as I always thought. But that is my story....







:







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## quietplease (Nov 28, 2001)

Here's something that happened a few towns over from us last week:

Local News: Saturday, May 14, 2005

Police recover stolen SUV with missing baby in back
By Ashley Bach
Seattle Times Eastside bureau

Bothell police yesterday detained a 44-year-old man they called a "person of interest" in the theft of a sport-utility vehicle that had a 12-week-old baby girl inside.

Police said the man was found by a police dog in the woods near where the SUV was abandoned with the unharmed infant inside. Police said they have not determined whether the man should be considered a suspect.

The baby, Fiona Johnson, was found and returned safely to her mother about an hour after her mother's red Jeep Cherokee was stolen from a liquor-store parking lot in the 19100 block of Bothell Way Northeast.

Fiona's mother, Holly Johnson of Bothell, parked her vehicle outside the store about 11:10 a.m. and went inside to buy a gift, said Bothell police Capt. Denise Langford.

She left her engine running so the air-conditioning would keep things comfortable for her daughter, Langford said. When she came out a few minutes later, her SUV was gone.

Johnson screamed and exclaimed that her baby was in the car. When police arrived, they found it difficult to keep her calm, Langford said.

Whoever took the SUV drove it north, and it was last seen around Meridian Avenue South and 240th Street Southwest, about a mile away. Police found the SUV about 12:30 p.m. in a church parking lot in the 23800 block of Meridian Avenue South, with Fiona still strapped in her car seat in the back.

They drove the baby, still in her car seat, back to the liquor store and her mother.

"I thought everything would be OK, just going into the store to pick up a gift," Johnson said after she was reunited with Fiona. "Obviously, it wasn't.

"If there's a lesson in this for everyone," she said, "it's that things like this can happen that quickly, whether it's running into a gas station to pay for your gas [or] leaving your car to get money from the ATM."

Langford said police are focused on arresting a suspect in the car theft, and later, they will explore whether Johnson did anything illegal. She could face questions over leaving her car unattended with the baby inside, police said.

"We feel a lot of compassion toward her and the situation," Langford said. "We're just really happy we were able to get that baby back to her."

Parents can legally take their children into liquor stores, said Sharon Michael, a spokeswoman for the state Liquor Control Board. Only unaccompanied minors and children without an adult relative are unwelcome.

Ashley Bach: 206-464-2567 or [email protected]

I think it is too rosky in this day and age to leave children unattended in your car. Either the car OR the child may be the target of a criminal.


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## amybw (Jul 12, 2004)

In our local news a husband and wife with the baby in the back stopped at a gas station. They both went in for some reason. A repo man had been tailing them and he hopped in their car and took off with the key provided to him by the company that hired him. He then found a baby in there and i think he took the baby tothe police dept and the parents were arrested for endangerment.

i am not sure about "just a few mins". grocery store or otherwise out of site. no way!
running a letter up to the post office and i can see the vehicle the whole time? I dont do it but i have thought of it.
I get paranoid and think, well what if i fell on the sidewalk and knock myself out and then he is alone for hours. I have left him in the van in the driveway, locked, emergency braked when i forget something in the house.

you did what you could do. thank god no one took those kids. I'd be sick over it if they had.









Amy


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

If anyone would like to add the age and/or conditions it would be OK to leave a child/children in the care it would be great. TIA


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## Carsonsmama (May 17, 2004)

Now this turned into something of a hot debate on an older thread...so I will tread carefully.
I admit to having left my son in the car before. Somewhere within sight, car not running, doors locked and literally gone from the driver's seat for two minutes. It's not something I am proud of but a decision I made at the time thinking it was alright.
I saw something on Oprah (I know she is strongly disliked around here), However....I saw one of her shows that showed lots of women that made the same decision thinking it was fine and things that you never even considered a threat happened. And the kids were hurt.
It just made me re-think how hard is it to actually haul your kids out and take them in....and whether or not there is a better time to run that particular errand.

It's just another inconvienient part of our jobs as mothers....but it's our responsibility.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Some states have laws about the actual age that kids can be left in cars unattended. 7 or 8 is probably legal in most states that have a law. I wouldn't worry if the kid looked old enough to know how to cross a parking lot safely. I would be alarmed at anyone in a car alone that looked 3 or under, concerned about kids that looked 4 or 5, and unconcerned with kids that looked older. My mother and I actually did see an older toddler and a baby in a car alone. The baby was crying and the toddler was sweaty and starting to look panicked. My mom went in to the store and had them make an announcement while I watched the kids. The mom went straight to the car and peeled rubber out of there. I do hope she was scared enough to never do that again.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Yes, if I could see the car. Like at the drycleaners or the shop with the big window where I can park right in front and see the car AT ALL TIMES!

If you have to leave sight of the car, or must turn the corner on the car, do not shop. Go home. Or drag the kids out. Safety first, folks!


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

I wouldn't leave my kids to go inside anywhere under the age of ten. I'm less worried about someone taking them than I am them hurting themselves or getting out and getting lost. I don't take my kids out of the car to pump gas or pay for gas, but the gas station I use has a window outside where you pay. I've left my kids in the car to use an ATM machine, but I was only about fifteen feet away and had them in full view the entire time.

However, I'm lucky that I don't usually have to run errands with my kids. I do a lot of running around after my husband gets home from work. It is very rare that I'm in a situation where I absolutely have to take my kids to the store, gas station, or anywhere else.


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## SmilingChick (Apr 6, 2005)

"She left her engine running so the air-conditioning would keep things comfortable for her daughter"

I'm sorry, but leaving a baby in the car *WITH IT RUNNING*? I understand that if the baby is sleeping, it can be an inconvenience to lug the carrier out, etc, but come on - that is just the utmost in neglience, imo.

Thank god the baby was recovered safely. I can just see a car thief realizing a baby is in the car, freaking out, and hurting it or worse. And for what - so the mom could save 30 seconds?!?!?! Let her go buy her booze another time.


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

A friend and I often will do an errand together if our younger ones are asleep. We drive up somewhere and take turns going into the store/bank/open house (they're house hunting) while the other mom stays with the kids (4 total, 2 in each car). I've had people scrutinize one car and get huffy until I hop out and wave.

I don't have a seven or eight year old, so I don't know what age I'll be comfortable leaving my kids in the car to grab a thing of milk. I'm not comfortable now, that's all I know.

What are the laws in your state about how old a child must be to be left without suppervision?

Kaly


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

Quote:

"If there's a lesson in this for everyone," she said, "it's that things like this can happen that quickly, whether it's running into a gas station [with your engine running] to pay for your gas [or] leaving your car [with the engine running] to get money from the ATM."
No, the lesson in this for everyone is to make sure you don't push out your brain with the placenta.


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## Carsonsmama (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Seasons*
No, the lesson in this for everyone is to make sure you don't push out your brain with the placenta.









:LOL I like that one...


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

I see no problem with what the Op saw. I don't think 7 or 8 is too young to wait in the car while mom or dad runs into a grocery store. Most 7 or 8 year olds walk to their schools and friends' hosues alone, play in the park without adult supervision and in my neighbourhood spend sumemr days swimming in the community pool without their parents around (there are life guards, of course). I had a lot of freedom as a child and definitely preferred to wait in the car while my mom or dad did their banking or ran a quick errand.

For me, if a child is old enough to be at the park with friends and not parents then there's no reason why being in a locked vehicle would pose any greater risk.

I live in a city, just in case soemone thinks I lived or live somewhere small where everyone knows everyone and perceived risk factors are lower.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Everyone has their own idea for what makes this safe or not.

For me it is mainly weather and maturity of child to get out of car if I was injured and didn't come back.

My dd is 8 and I will leave her in the car for a couple of minutes if the weather is decent. I always lock doors and take keys!

The doors and keys are important to me but not necessarily how close I am to the car. The other day a car was carjacked a couple of miles from me with a child in the car. The mother was 12 ft. away getting another child so they could go to lunch. They hopped the car and got away and she, of course, could grab the door but not stop the car. The carjackers were quickly caught and one of them apologized on the news saying that he didn't know she was in the car and that he never would hurt her and wouldn't have taken the car if he knew she was in it.

When my dd was a baby I lived in a very small midwestern town and i would leave her in the car while I went in and paid for gas. I never felt uncomfortable since I knew everyone in the parking lot. The weather was ALWAYS a factor though. It is getting to be summer in TX and I wouldn't stay in the car so my dc definitely won't be.


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PoppyMama*
For me it is mainly weather and maturity of child to get out of car if I was injured and didn't come back.

Ability to get out if needed is a big one for me. And weather.


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

Hmm......I guess I am sort of sitting on the fence on this one. I think it is okay to leave a seven or eight year old in a car unattended for a short period of time..........and longer periods as they get older. I remember my mom used to leave us alone in the car a lot, but not for very long, and she always locked the car doors and made sure it wasn't hot out. I personally never leave my kids alone in the car-ever, even if they're sleeping. The only exception to that is if I am going inside a convienence store to pay for gas-that's when I lock all the car doors and make sure I can see my car at all times. But I know that things can happen in a split second, so I am always VERY careful. Awhile ago I was sitting at a music store and this dad had a toddler in the car and he just left the car running and on and ran into the store- and was gone a good fifteen minutes. I sat there and watched the little girl the whole time- but I did take down his license plate. I thought to myself-If he doesn't come out within twenty minutes I am going to call the police- this was at night and that is just so scary. But he came out and I looked at him- I made sure he noticed that I had seen what he did. He just tore out of there - I hope he realized what danger his baby could have been in.


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## pfamilygal (Feb 28, 2005)

I only do at the gas station if I move the car so I am parked directly in front of the doors and only if they have full length glass doors. Quik Trip has the payment counter about 4 feet inside the door and they have full length glass doors with no stickers or anything to block your view. I go in QT and pay but I can see the car about 10 feet from me. I lock the doors, of course. Wouldn't do it otherwise. For me, this seems safer than dragging a 9 m/o, 2 y/o (who is CRAZY disobedient







) and a 4 y/o into the store.


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## ekblad9 (Nov 21, 2001)

My oldest is 13 and I will leave him in the car for a minute or two while I run in for milk (or something). I have never left the 8 and under crowd alone in the car, though. I started leaving my oldest in the car when he was around 11 1/2 or so.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

I HAVE left my kids in a car but never out of sight. I feel MORE nervous about leaving non-car seat children in a car because older kids can possibly get the car in neutral and set it rolling or leave the car on their own and start wandering, etc. Once they are old enough to get out of the car and come into the store to find me without help, they are old enough to stay in the car alone. Maybe around age 12?

Of course, now that I don't live on an island in the middle of the ocean, I don't feel safe leaving my children in a vehicle unless I'm within 10 feet of it and there is no building, wall, door, etc. blocking me.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I only use the "pay at the pump" feature if I'm buying gas with my kids. If the pay at the pump thing is broken, I'll go to another gas station. If I have cash but not enough money in the bank and the kids are with me (this VERY rarely happens, I usually have more credit/debit than cash) then I'll either wait to buy gas or pay a bit more to have the attendant pump for me.

I have a 9 and a 10yo and I don't let them walk alone to a friend's house, or leave them alone in the car unless it's in my driveway or the school parking lot at dismissal time (when it's so congested a carjacker wouldn't stand a chance.)


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## Thursday Girl (Mar 26, 2004)

well my mom used to leave us in the car alone well she went into the grocery store. When i was about 7 my twin sister and two older sisters were in the car. My oldest sister was 11. There was a man parked next to us who pulled out his privates and started playing with himself and watching us. we were terrified. we didn't want to get out of the car b/c he was there but we're also afraid os staying. when my mom came out the man left and we went into the store to tell the manager who pulled the parking lot tapes and reviewed them to get the man's licensce plate. my mom never left us in the car alone again. Until I was like 14.

My daughter will not be left alone in the car.

as for gas stations I pay at the pump or lug my child in and out of her seat even if she is sleeping. a little discomfert or annoyance is far better then risking my child


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## chersolly (Aug 29, 2004)

My child(ren) will never be left alone in a vehicle. Period. It's just not worth it.

When my brother and I were younger, we went out for a nice Sunday breakfast with our Grandpa. He ran into the store to grab a paper. While he was inside, my brother and I were messing around in his truck, just like curious, bored children do. Somehow we knocked the truck into gear and it started to roll....


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## Carsonsmama (May 17, 2004)

Another option for gas is....credit card. It is my new way since having my son. This was a real dilema for me being I drive allot and during cold months don't let my tank get below half full.....it feels like I am always at the station!
So I started using my credit card and then every pay day put enough money on it to cover my gas costs till next pay day.

Gas attendants are willing to take your credit card in the store, swipe it and bring the receipt out for you to sign. I still feel a bit silly asking them to do this....but also figure with a small child in the back they must understand I am not THAT lazy. I always used to wonder who was EVER that lazy that they couldn't get out of their car to go in and pay....and now I know..ME!! :LOL


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PoppyMama*
If anyone would like to add the age and/or conditions it would be OK to leave a child/children in the care it would be great. TIA

I asked this question in the "other" heated thread, and no one responded. I'll bet no one here will either.
Here's my take....I will not leave my kids sleeping, not sleeping, crying, awake, or happy, alone in the car, running or not running, for even one minute or a couple of minutes, whether I can see the car from where I am or not see the car, no matter what time of the day or night, and not in a "crime free" safe area, or a crime ridden dangerous area, with a dog or no dog, or _insert any other justification here_, EVER. I chose between waking them up or getting that loaf of bread quite a bit. And if we REALLY have to have the loaf of bread I either wait until DH comes home, or wake my youngest up and carry him in. Nothing is that important that I would feel justified in leaving them alone in a 1000+ pound motor vehicle. I think about it this way...I grew these kids and went through 2 C-sections (3 if you count my surrogate pregnancy) to have them. I have spent countless hours with my arms numb from holding them, been so tired I was delirious from lack of sleep, and cried so many times from happiness and sorrow, I couldn't begin to count the tears...I love them so much, it hurts. I don't leave my CD's or my purse out in the open in my car, why would I leave my children?
If I come up to a car and there are children alone in it, I give the parent 60 seconds. If they are not back in 60 seconds, I will pull out my cell phone and dial 9-1-1. I will stand there and wait for emergency personnel to come, or for the parent to come out whichever is first. I will not lecture the parent. It's not my place. I do not care why she/he did it. But I do tell them that I have reported their vehicle and plate for leaving their kids unattended. If I saw a child being slapped around, I would do the same damn thing. If I saw a child walking the street alone, I would do the same damn thing. If I knew or suspected a child was being sexually abused or neglected in any way, I would do the same thing. Call me a busy body or bitch or whatever you want. We all make choices. Sure, that's every parent's right. And if you leave your precious kid in the car by themself, I will choose to report you because that's my right.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Dallaschildren- is there an age when you can accept the parents decision to allow their children to remain in the car or be out walking?

My dd is 8 and if the conditions are such that an adult could remain in a car with the windows rolled up for a couple of minutes I let her. I would also let her walk to and from school if we lived within walking distance and she had a few friends to walk with. I also let her go into the gas station and pay for the gas if she wants to.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

PoppyMama said:


> Dallaschildren- is there an age when you can accept the parents decision to allow their children to remain in the car or be out walking?
> 
> 
> 
> > Honestly, I cannot tell how old every stranger's child is. Not many people can. But I can say that in my past experience, every time I have called 9-1-1, the child was in either an infant carrier, or a convertible car seat. Being a CPS tech I am pretty proficient at identifying car seats. The children I have reported were obviously infant or toddler age. And if a child can walk out with you and you don't have to carry them which I know is hard in certain situations, why not just have them walk in with you?


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I saw some kids -- 11, 6, 3, thereabouts-- with an infant lying in the 'way back' of a mini van, in a grocery store parking lot. The kids opened the window as i was unloading my groceries, and said they were hungry. I gave them a loaf of bread which they ravenously took. I told them to lock the doors and not open them for anyone. That not everyone would be as nice i as I was. Then I called 911.

That said, I have left the older kids in a locked, alarmed car as I ran into a store with big windows.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren*
I asked this question in the "other" heated thread, and no one responded. I'll bet no one here will either.
Here's my take....I will not leave my kids sleeping, not sleeping, crying, awake, or happy, alone in the car, running or not running, for even one minute or a couple of minutes, whether I can see the car from where I am or not see the car, no matter what time of the day or night, and not in a "crime free" safe area, or a crime ridden dangerous area, with a dog or no dog, or _insert any other justification here_, EVER. I chose between waking them up or getting that loaf of bread quite a bit. And if we REALLY have to have the loaf of bread I either wait until DH comes home, or wake my youngest up and carry him in. Nothing is that important that I would feel justified in leaving them alone in a 1000+ pound motor vehicle. I think about it this way...I grew these kids and went through 2 C-sections (3 if you count my surrogate pregnancy) to have them. I have spent countless hours with my arms numb from holding them, been so tired I was delirious from lack of sleep, and cried so many times from happiness and sorrow, I couldn't begin to count the tears...I love them so much, it hurts. I don't leave my CD's or my purse out in the open in my car, why would I leave my children?
If I come up to a car and there are children alone in it, I give the parent 60 seconds. If they are not back in 60 seconds, I will pull out my cell phone and dial 9-1-1. I will stand there and wait for emergency personnel to come, or for the parent to come out whichever is first. I will not lecture the parent. It's not my place. I do not care why she/he did it. But I do tell them that I have reported their vehicle and plate for leaving their kids unattended. If I saw a child being slapped around, I would do the same damn thing. If I saw a child walking the street alone, I would do the same damn thing. If I knew or suspected a child was being sexually abused or neglected in any way, I would do the same thing. Call me a busy body or bitch or whatever you want. We all make choices. Sure, that's every parent's right. And if you leave your precious kid in the car by themself, I will choose to report you because that's my right.

This really pisses me off. If I was paying for gas and I saw some stranger hanging around my car where my children were, I'd be angry and I _would_ probably lecture. How on earth is it safer for me, or anyone else, to drag my children out of the car and to the payment window where other cars are driving around than it is for me to leave them in the car? They are no further away from me than they would be at the park.

Your definition of "right" is seriously off. Where I live, the law says that children over the age of ten can be in cars unattended. They can walk around their neighborhood unattended and they can stay home alone unattended for periods of time no greater than three hours and not after 9:00pm. If you are running around playing police I sure as hell hope that you are aware of the laws and ordinances in your area.

And the whole "I went through so much to have my kids" thing makes me a little ill. Women who had easy pregnancies and births DON'T love their kids as much as those who had difficult ones?

Jeez. I have to believe that those of you who are going off on this are talking about very young children, as in toddlers or early elementary school age kids. Because if anyone ever said anything to me about a 10yo, I'd flip out on them.


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)




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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

never mind


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

I leave the kids in the car to go to the ATM, if I can see the car, locked doors, and me with keys. My bank doesn't have a drive up. If I can't park close enough, I go to the bank next store that has a drive up and pay the surcharge. I'm not sure when I'll feel safe leaving the kids in the car when I can't see them. But after someone saying something about falling and hitting their heads, I'm not sure I would leave them? But then I think, great, so I'm unconscious on the sidewalk, and my 6,4 and 16 month old are running in the parking lot! They'd be safer in the car! You just can't win!

All I can say is I have found motherhood to be a lot harder than I expected, and I think it is one thing to point out the dangers or stick around to watch and make sure the kids are OK, but wanting to send a mother into panic just seems cruel. Things do happen so quickly, and sometimes I feel like I'm walking around in a fog from lack of sleep, stress, the constant noise: I just wouldn't judge another mother quite so harshly.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I have to say that I don't really see the difference between the car being in sight or not. If you are behind glass doors, watching the car, there is no way you are going to get out to the car fast enough if you see someone jump in and drive off. I have stood next to the car - pump gas, walk up ATM, that kind of thing, with ds in the car, but never gone inside a building with him inside the car. I pay at the pump or I don't get gas.

There was another thread wherein someone posted a link to some articles about vehicles (turned off, no key) that have spontaneously combusted. I used to leave ds sleeping in the car in our enclosed garage with the door open and me listening on the monitor. But I don't anymore.

I remember sitting in the car one time with my little sister (I think I was about 12 and she was about 8). My dad was getting ready to drive us to school, and had to run into the house for something. My sister did something that dislodged the parking brake, and the car started rolling down the street. I wasn't quick enough to think about pulling the parking brake, and I remember diving onto the floor and hitting the footbrake with my hand. And that's how my dad found us - halfway down the street with me headfirst on the floor. He was pretty freaked. But I remember my mom leaving us in the car at around that age a lot while she ran in for groceries.

Admittedly, I don't have nearly as big a problem with an 8 or 9 year old in a car as I do a 3 or 4 year old. I can't say definitively though, as I don't have an 8 or 9 year old. However, I live in a big city, so it will probably be a long long time before either one of my children are left in the car, walk down the street, or ride their bike alone.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Dallaschildren did say that the children she has called on where infants or toddlers. I wouldn't choose her wording but I have thought similar things when murdered children are on the news. A life that is so precious to me being treated as so cheap by someone else baffles me. I'm not talking about a child locked in a car while the mom pays for gas though.

I said earlier that weather and the ability of kids to get out if I was injured are my main criteria. At those pay window gas stations I lock the doors but I never get my kids out. No point.

Dallaschildren- yes she could get out but if she doesn't feel like it and my other criteria are met I will let her stay in.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Your child is far, far more likely to be hit in the parking lot by another car while walking with you into a store or building than abducted by a stranger in the car while left alone. The main dangers of leaving children unattended in cars come from temperature concerns and the child doing something to harm him or herself.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Um...it takes a bit to get a locked, alarmed car moving.







Even i know that, and I've never stolen a car. 3 or 4 yr olds should be strapped into carseats. When we were all little, the entire carseat situation was different. At any rate, my car's gears cannot be moved unless the keys are in the ignition. And just perhaps, it;s time to let kids know they can't be playing with gears.







I mean, don't you tell your kids to leave the VCR alone?

I think paranoia will get us nowhere.

I agree with with the poster who said that kids in a car are often closer to us than kids on a public playground.

I think we all need to stop thinking danger lurks around every corner gas station. because it doesn't. If you're watching a whole bunch of TV, I know it may seem that way. Or maybe if you live a high crime zone. Otherwise, the numbers don't fit.

How many kids have been abducted from locked, alarmed cars while their parents paid for gas in a couple of minutes?

And remember, the car has to be locked, alarmed, and without the keys in the ignition.







Go gooogle it. You'll see the mumber is NONE.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Now, I agree 100% that _young_ children should _never_ be left in the car alone. But I do wonder at the notion that parents should be reported if they are out walking the street alone and how over-protective some people may have become due to fears about their children, and how well - or not - this may serve these children.

Thinking back, I walked to school and back alone from about the age of 6 or 7. In the UK, there are no school buses in most areas for elementary age children. And my parents did not have two cars, and my mother could not drive. We all walked to school - that was normal.

We also went out on our bikes, we walked on errands to the post office or the shops, and when we were a little older (10 or so) we took the bus into town on our own. At 11, I caught two buses (London Transport buses, not school buses) to get to school and back every day. No car to give me a lift, no school bus to take me door to door.

So, would my mother have left me in the car while she went to buy a pint of milk? Nope, she didnt have a car. She'd have sent me to the shops to buy it.










I guess she didnt have to worry though about my bike spontaneously combusting :LOL


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

You got it, Brtishmum!

We're all paranoid from watching too much tellie here in the states.

The facts of actual crime just do not equal the CSI tv show ones. the fact is, abductions are on the the decline, and have been for some time. But you wouldn't know that from watching Prime Time.

we're victims of our own leisure activities. Some of us here would prefer not to know our neighbors and would prefer to let our kids watch TV rather than let them play outside, where all the perverts are. Since we do not know our neighbors, any of them could be 'preverts'. None of the neighbors are nice, yk? They only like us for our cars.

Now, some of us do live in crime-infested neighborhoods, or places where owning a Hummer is most important, and pedophiles are the nice old people offering candy, but many of us here just have regular folks like all of us as neighbors. Our fear is greater than the statistical reality.

I'll confess--- i let my 6 yr old walk with our neighbors and my 12 yr old dd, to the local playground today. I didn't even go with them!


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

I think paranoia will get us nowhere.
I disagree. The chances of your child being abducted by a stranger at all are pretty slim, but I doubt many moms here would be okay with letting them walk around the supermart out of our sight. I think some healthy paranoia is what keeps kids safe.

Cars are machines full of gasoline and electronics - not a safe combo. They are also huge targets for thieves. More cars are stolen than children are abducted. My fear of someone taking off with my car with a my children inside has more to do with them stealing the car, unaware that my children are inside, than it has to do with thinking that someone is trying to steal my kids.

Plenty of locked alarmed cars are stolen everyday. It's false sense of security. So are carseats - my ds1 could undo his carseat by the time he was 3yo.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

I leave my kids in the car. Even my 4 year old. I'm not ashamed or embarrassed. My risk assessment of each situation says it's okay.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

My 7yo walks to school alone. I don't let him wander around the supermarket because he could hurt himself or annoy someone else.

Besides, everyone who watches the news knows that only little white girls get abducted.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Stats just don't bear that out, though.

Children in observed, locked, alarmed cars at the gas station while the parent pays for gas *do not* get abducted every day.

But if the stats agree with you, I am all ears.

Paranoia will get us nowhere.

And count me among those who actually let my children move 6 inches away from me at the market. I could strangle those folks snarling a their kids' Get over here, right now!!" I mean, how many marginally supervised kids are taken from the grocery store??

Again, none. But show me the news reports.

Kids are taken by people they know. By boyfriends, uncles, the pedophile across the street. they are *not* taken from shopping carts or from the produce department.

have i told you lately that i love you, Mothra? :LOL But then again, I'm so GAY.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Life is dangerous. It is dangerous to send your child to bed if they have a window in their room. Yes- we still live. I do think it is strange to say that leaving children in a car is wrong 100% of the time but it is not dangerous for a child to be out alone. Seems like a personal thing to me- which is fine...for you.

I look at each situation and decide what needs to be done for my children. I do look at what seems the most dangerous.

Cars are always locked, and never left with the key, etc. whenever anyone is left in them.

Heat + closed car + people = deadly no matter what age.

I do allow my dc to go to the park walk around the neighborhood, etc. in a group of more than 2.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Mothra: I'm guessing that you would be close enough that she wouldn't be able to call 911 because you would notice some busybody standing by your car for 60 seconds. I know that everytime I've left my vehicle with my children in it, I've been close enough that I would have seen someone like her before she could do anything. So maybe by her definition, I'm not leaving my kids in the car?
I remember someone freaking out in Shannon's thread when I said I parked in front of the Kava bar and left my kids sleeping in the car. Of course the Kava bar is at an open air farmer's market and there is a parking spot right in front of it. It's basically like standing on the sidewalk in front of your car. That was in Hawaii, on an island in the middle of the ocean. I wouldn't do it here on the mainland though.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Irishmommy*
I leave my kids in the car. Even my 4 year old. I'm not ashamed or embarrassed. My risk assessment of each situation says it's okay.











I do believe that cars are stolen more often than children are abducted. I mentioned that earlier when I said that a little girl was accidently kidnapped during a carjacking a couple of days ago very close to me with her mother 12 ft. from the car. Error- car running and keys in ignition. Fast and easy. A locked car with no keys parked in a conspicuous place is not a quick steal.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

kavamamakava-- That's my comfort level. I wouldn't leave my kids any further than that because I don't trust them. They are kids. A few days ago I saw a woman park her car in front of a restaurant and leave two sleeping kids, probably about four and six, in the car in their carseats and run in and pick up food. She was gone maybe five minutes. I wouldn't have done that, but I certainly wouldn't call the cops on her.

When it is extremely hot or extremely cold, that changes things. But I think part of the near hysteria over this issue is that we are afraid of this boogeyman that just doesn't exist. Kids are not abducted by strangers every day. Not even close. Some places are safer than others. I think the vast majority of parents can be trusted to make the best decisions about situations like these based on what they know of their surroundings and their children. I don't like the idea that we have to police each other.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

And you know what totally interests me? All those idling cars that are stolen with kids in them. The perp is interested in the car---not the kid! They steal the car not knowing there's a kid inside! All these stolen cars with kids strapped into seats left on the side of the road---with the kids totally unharmed has got to tell you something!

One thing is clear---pedophiles do not go through the trouble of looking for kids strapped in carseats with the motor running. Pedophiles do not have to work that hard.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:

One thing is clear---pedophiles do not go through the trouble of looking for kids strapped in carseats with the motor running. Pedophiles do not have to work that hard.
Exactly. The people that are the most dangerous to our children are the people that we know. Statistically, our kids are far, far more likely to be molested or harmed by someone we know than a stranger. This is why I'm the mean mommy who won't let her kids play at someone else's home except under very strict circumstances.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

And you know what totally interests me? All those idling cars that are stolen with kids in them. The perp is interested in the car---not the kid! They steal the car not knowing there's a kid inside! All these stolen cars with kids strapped into seats left on the side of the road---with the kids totally unharmed has got to tell you something!
That's what I pointed out. My fear about leaving my kids in the car (besides physical danger of being the car itself) is not that someone is going to abduct them, but that someone is going to try to steal the car without even realizing they are in there.

Quote:

they are *not* taken from shopping carts or from the produce department
They absolutely are. Not nearly as often as by someone they know, but it absoultey does happen.

I am all for parents making their own risk assessments. I never said that anyone who leaves their kids in the car is a bad parent. I make choices that others may disagree with. But letting my 3yo out of my sight in public areas is not one of them. He can move 6 inches away from me but he can't be in a different aisle. I also don't leave him alone with Uncle Joe whom I do not know very well.

I would not have called the authorities if I saw an 8 year old in a car. I may have stood by to make sure they were safe until the parent arrived, I dunno. Depends on the situation.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LunaMom*
What would you have done?

I'll tell you what I would have done, because it's what I did do in a similar situation: I called 911 and gave them her car make and model and license number.

This woman was parked outside of Starbucks and actually *did* come out after MANY minutes, during which the same thought occurred to me: that I could just have said, "Come with me," and taken them. I said, "Are these your kids?" and she said that they were, and I said, "Did you know it's against the law to leave them in the car like that?" and she just kept breezily walking -- no apology, no explanation, no nothin'. So I called 911 and I hope that they busted her, because frankly, someone who apparently cares that little for her children and has a casual, "I'm above the law" attitude needs to understand either that she's endangering her kids OR that the cops don't like that, or ideally both.

Maybe it's different in a more rural, less dangerous part of the country, but we live in a city famous for its family unfriendliness.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Comfort level- that is a key term. What I would feel comfortable others might not feel comfortable with and what others are comfortable with I might not be comfortable with.

Every one of the high profile kid carjackings have occured in a car with the keys in it. Way to many babies have died from heat in cars.

So...no running cars with keys and no heat. Do I think that regulating our every decision as parents will stop these tragedies. NO WAY!!!! Ultimately we have to make the choices that are best for our particular children.

I feel more comfortable with safety in numbers. Does that mean that I think that children walking to school or the park or the market alone are destined for kidnapping...NO. I just feel icky about it so it doesn't work for ME.

Do I keep my kids 5 feet from me in the store? NO. I let them have some space but I do want them to be able to hear me or see me quickly. I tell that it is their job to know where I am.







They also know that they are to go to the front of the store and stand in front of the checkout area if they lose me.

I also let them use public restrooms.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

This is why I'm the mean mommy who won't let her kids play at someone else's home except under very strict circumstances.
This seems pretty contradictory. First you agree that we shouldn't be paranoid, but then you say that you're strict about not letting them play at a friend's house.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
I'll tell you what I would have done, because it's what I did do in a similar situation: I called 911 and gave them her car make and model and license number.

This woman was parked outside of Starbucks and actually *did* come out after MANY minutes, during which the same thought occurred to me: that I could just have said, "Come with me," and taken them. I said, "Are these your kids?" and she said that they were, and I said, "Did you know it's against the law to leave them in the car like that?" and she just kept breezily walking -- no apology, no explanation, no nothin'. So I called 911 and I hope that they busted her, because frankly, someone who apparently cares that little for her children and has a casual, "I'm above the law" attitude needs to understand either that she's endangering her kids OR that the cops don't like that, or ideally both.

Maybe it's different in a more rural, less dangerous part of the country, but we live in a city famous for its family unfriendliness.

Maybe she was embarrassed or trying to avoid a confrontation with a stranger. Or maybe she didn't feel like justifying herself. Or maybe she didn't know it was against the law but now she does and that's all she needed to know and there was nothing further to be discussed.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I am not trying to be argumentative, but can someone please show me where children have been actually abducted from a shopping cart?? The stats do not bear this out, except on Afterschool TV Specials. I Googled it and everything. I mean, i know urban legends abound, but ya gotta be nuts to try get out of a store with a kid strapped in a shopping cart.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
I could just have said, "Come with me," and taken them. ...-- no apology, no explanation, no nothin'.


How do you know that they would let you into the car or left the car to go with you.

Maybe she didn't think that she owed you an apology or explanation.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

I have to say (and yes I am making silly generalities) that it is interesting for an online community that is home to so many people who feel it is their legal right to make decisions that they feel are right for their children (not vaxing, nursing older children, not going to school) that other people feel are dangerous and irresponsible get so bossy about something they find dangerous and irresponsible.

Just an observation.


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

I am very aware that children are rarely abducted by strangers, and that pedophiles aren't going to go through the trouble of getting to kids in a locked car. My concern when a parent leaves young kids - I guess I'll say under 10 - in a car while she is gone for more than a minute or two in a place where she cannot see the car at ll the whole time, as was the case in my original example, something may happen where the child might need help. Maybe they need to go to the bathroom. Badly. Maybe some creepy person starts watching them and they feel uncomfortable. Maybe one of them gets hurt. Then what? Will they get out of the car to try to find their mom? And is it really safe for them to do that in a busy parking lot?

I'm not paranoid at all - I let my child run around the playground without me following her, she can ride her bike on paths in the park as long as I can see her, I'll run into my house to pee if she's riding her bike on the driveway (I have a bathroom with a window right inside the front door). She's 6 1/2. But in a busy place with tons of people I don't know and with her out of sight AND earshot, no way.

Would you leave your purse on the front seat of your car with the windows halfway down in a major shopping center while you went into a big store?


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren*
I asked this question in the "other" heated thread, and no one responded. I'll bet no one here will either.
Here's my take....I will not leave my kids sleeping, not sleeping, crying, awake, or happy, alone in the car, running or not running, for even one minute or a couple of minutes, whether I can see the car from where I am or not see the car, no matter what time of the day or night, and not in a "crime free" safe area, or a crime ridden dangerous area, with a dog or no dog, or _insert any other justification here_, EVER. I chose between waking them up or getting that loaf of bread quite a bit. And if we REALLY have to have the loaf of bread I either wait until DH comes home, or wake my youngest up and carry him in. Nothing is that important that I would feel justified in leaving them alone in a 1000+ pound motor vehicle. I think about it this way...I grew these kids and went through 2 C-sections (3 if you count my surrogate pregnancy) to have them. I have spent countless hours with my arms numb from holding them, been so tired I was delirious from lack of sleep, and cried so many times from happiness and sorrow, I couldn't begin to count the tears...I love them so much, it hurts. I don't leave my CD's or my purse out in the open in my car, why would I leave my children?
If I come up to a car and there are children alone in it, I give the parent 60 seconds. If they are not back in 60 seconds, I will pull out my cell phone and dial 9-1-1. I will stand there and wait for emergency personnel to come, or for the parent to come out whichever is first. I will not lecture the parent. It's not my place. I do not care why she/he did it. But I do tell them that I have reported their vehicle and plate for leaving their kids unattended. If I saw a child being slapped around, I would do the same damn thing. If I saw a child walking the street alone, I would do the same damn thing. If I knew or suspected a child was being sexually abused or neglected in any way, I would do the same thing. Call me a busy body or bitch or whatever you want. We all make choices. Sure, that's every parent's right. And if you leave your precious kid in the car by themself, I will choose to report you because that's my right.









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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Lunamom-

Creepy person outside car- my dc are instructed to stay in the car with the doors locked and never let anyone in (I do not do stranger danger), if they feel uncomfortable with anything anyone outside the car is doing they are to hold down the horn and not let up.

As far as needing restrooms or assistance- I would not park anywhere that they could not get to where I was.


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

I leave my kids in the car for short errands as long as my oldest (12yo) is with me. He's 12. He can babysit, stay home by himself legally, etc. He can watch the kids in the car for a few minutes.

I won't leave the toddlers alone, even to go to the atm.

I would leave my 8yo in the car if I went to the atm, hasn't come up yet.

I would not report a 7/8yo left alone in the car, unless it was for a super long time, or in unsafe weather.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
This seems pretty contradictory. First you agree that we shouldn't be paranoid, but then you say that you're strict about not letting them play at a friend's house.

No, it isn't. I think you have some misconceptions about how children are actually hurt by adults. I do not allow my children to go to the homes of families that I do not know very, very well if an adult, or teen, male lives in the house. That's because I know that the fathers and male teenage siblings of my children's friends are the people in their lives most likely to harm them. I do not let my children play in homes where guns are kept, and I do ask, because that is another way that children are hurt far, far more often than they are hurt by strangers. While walking to school, my child knows not to ever, ever get in a car with anyone or go anywhere with anyone, even someone he knows. There are three people he knows can pick him up from school and he knows that those three people are the only ones we would ever send for him. If anyone else tries to get him to go with them, he is to go to the principal of his school and call us on the phone.

There were less than 100 stranger abductions in 2003, I can't remember the exact statistic and I can't find it right now. (I've got to clean my house.) How many people do you know that were abducted as children? How many do you know that were molested? My children are in more danger in the homes of the people we know than on the street alone.

I do let them play in friend's homes, but only after I know the family well. My kids aren't running into the house of the new neighbors the day after they move in, that's all I'm saying.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Fact is, most thieves are not pedophiles and would want my purse more than they want to be bothered with my kids.

But we are not talking about leaving a child in a huge mall parking lotwhere a parent cannot see the child. We are *not* talking about leaving a child in a locked car , with rolled up windows, parked near a Nevada casino in May, while we feed our gambling addiction. We're not talking about leaving an unlocked car idling while we get money from an ATM.

A person can have fears-- we all have personal fears we ought not to thrust upon others. But the fact remains that children are not abducted from locked cars, non idlling cars, with their parents watching, while they are paying for gas.Teenagers are not abducted from locked cars in grocery store parking lots while their parents run in for milk as the teen listens to the radio. That' s a simple *fact*.

We can worry, but we should worry about real issues, not issues thrust upon us by TV melodramas.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kavamamakava*
Maybe she was embarrassed or trying to avoid a confrontation with a stranger. Or maybe she didn't feel like justifying herself. Or maybe she didn't know it was against the law but now she does and that's all she needed to know and there was nothing further to be discussed.

I'm sure she _was_ embarrassed and didn't feel like justifying herself -- but I honestly think that those are reasonable things to think and feel. I _don't_ think it was reasonable or appropriate to leave her kids -- not a one of whom was over five years old, BTW -- in a car with windows down. I hope she does know it's against the law, and that the cops take it pretty seriously because of the weather here -- we get VERY hot very early, and in-car temps can rise to lethal levels in something like four minutes at noon, so either way (windows up or down) it's a dumb move. Hey, she can be embarrassed or hate me or whatever, but if she stops to think the next time and then decides to take her kids with her, then it'll be worth it.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Like I said- we all have our own issues and we make decisions based on our own criteria.

The only molestation episode I ever had as a child (raised in urban Houston) was a stranger while I was walking alone in my neighborhood. So this is a special concern for me. Not the most special one but I think about it more than some might.

I accidentally locked my ds in a closed car in the summer when he was a baby and in the 20 minutes it took for the police and locksmith to get there (I called them) he was red and sweaty. My dd locked herself in once in our driveway while I was walking around to her door. She couldn't unlock it and again with the police and locksmith. The thought of hot people in a car makes me ill. This is a top concern for me.

A big factor in all of this is how we perceive the issues and how we train our children to respond. Some small children would be fine a little way from the parents in a store. Some older children wouldn't. I am very conscious of the dangers, my children know what they are supposed to do and we have role played what should happen.


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## Brie (Apr 26, 2005)

I think everyone is missing the point. Mind your own business!! People in this country think they have to police their fellow citizens constantly. If anyone in this thread has travelled to other countries, they would realize that we are trying to idiot proof our citizens.
Worry about yourself, and how YOU parent...


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
I'm sure she _was_ embarrassed and didn't feel like justifying herself -- but I honestly think that those are reasonable things to think and feel. I _don't_ think it was reasonable or appropriate to leave her kids -- not a one of whom was over five years old, BTW -- in a car with windows down. I hope she does know it's against the law, and that the cops take it pretty seriously because of the weather here -- we get VERY hot very early, and in-car temps can rise to lethal levels in something like four minutes at noon, so either way (windows up or down) it's a dumb move. Hey, she can be embarrassed or hate me or whatever, but if she stops to think the next time and then decides to take her kids with her, then it'll be worth it.

With the additional information I see that this does not fit my criteria and I would not do this. Yes I do feel that is dangerous.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brie*
...idiot proof our citizens...









:

I agree about policing other parents except that I would hang around for a hot baby/young child. I wouldn't be obvious about it though and I wouldn't call unless the situation became serious. I worry about hot babies, what can I say.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PoppyMama*
How do you know that they would let you into the car or left the car to go with you.

Maybe she didn't think that she owed you an apology or explanation.

They wouldn't necessarily have LET me in, but I could have let myself in -- and very few people would question a woman dealing with kids, however argumentative or loud they were being. That's the thing -- I was concerned about the possibility that someone would come along who *would* do them harm: it wouldn't have taken much.

As far as the apology thing goes, she didn't owe me either an apology or an explanation, but it would have made a difference in my level of sympathy for her and my understanding of her situation. If she'd bothered to say something like, "I know...I just had to rush into there for just a second...it's hard to get three kids on the move and out of a car..." I still wouldn't have thought that what she did was right, but I would've been more sympathetic to her. Instead, what she demonstrated (which may or may not have been an accurate reflection of her parenting as a whole) was that she didn't care, or thought she was above the whole thing (I perceived a definite attitude of haughtiness in her manner).


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

But you know what, Charles? These kids were *never* in danger, because *you* a *stranger*--was looking out for them.

My MIL has told me that in her village (southern europe) , nobody would ever think to *not* watch each other's children.

Here in the US we call the cops, but in other places in the world, people just look out for one and other (one another?)

It's sad sad sad. The kids I gave bread to were also never in danger, as i was watching them. I only called 911 because i was too busy to stay and keep an eye on them. I also live in an area too big to know everyone, not to mention that mini van was parked in an area off an interstate.

Even though I called 911-- the kids opening the window wide to me was frightening--I know there is a***huge*** flaw in our impersonal society,

One reason i talk to everyone while i run errands is so I can try to imprint locals upon my mind/memory. i don't feel comfortable living where I don't know our neighbors.

If we see kids in a locked car at a gas station, is it going to kill us to wave at the mother at the register and keep an eye on the kids? It' s really only our own self-righteousness, our un-neighborliness, that has us punching 911.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PoppyMama*
I have to say (and yes I am making silly generalities) that it is interesting for an online community that is home to so many people who feel it is their legal right to make decisions that they feel are right for their children (not vaxing, nursing older children, not going to school) that other people feel are dangerous and irresponsible get so bossy about something they find dangerous and irresponsible.

Just an observation.

The thing is, PoppyMama, the _vast_ majority of unvaxing mamas (and I'm not one of them, actually) have researched the bejeezus out of the vaxing issue left, right, and center -- as have the mamas who cosleep, long-term nurse, and homeschool (and I'm the last three). Most of those moms have really considered the danger-to-benefit ratio and have concluded that those practices ultimately are worth the down side.

I'm not so sure this same mindset pertains to moms who leave their kids in cars. Some do it more thoughtfully, others (and I honestly think this is the majority) do it rather thoughtlessly. It's one thing to nurse a child until they're five; it's another thing to take the risk of your child being snatched by a stranger while you're getting your mochaccino.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Charles, Im gonna have to ask you to come up with some sort of link that shows a child being abducted from a locked car while an uncaring parent is getting her morning latte.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
But you know what, Charles? These kids were *never* in danger, because *you* a *stranger*--was looking out for them.

I agree, and I would have defended them against anyone who came around because, bottom line, I didn't want them to get hurt.

Quote:

My MIL has told me that in her village (southern europe) , nobody would ever think to *not* watch each other's children.

Here in the US we call the cops, but in other places in the world, people just look out for one and other (one another?)
The thing is, this country is a more violent place than southern Europe -- by a long shot, actually (no pun intended on "shot"). I think many factors (cars, air conditioning, commuting, transience) contribute to a sense of little or no community in our "communities." I wish it were more like you describe; I really do.

As for self-righteousness, I am not trying to be self-righteous. I'm not a perfect mom by any means; I'm just trying to avoid the really, really big screwups for my kid and to (ideally) prevent the harm that can happen to other people's kids even at the risk of seeming (or being) self-righteous. I'd rather be Queen of Selfrighteousness than be collaterally responsible through my failure to act for a child's endangerment or death.


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## Brie (Apr 26, 2005)

Right on UUMom!


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## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

Hmmm, I am trying to imagine the possibility of a car thief not noticing my kids in my car :LOL The nonstop noise, the screaming... :LOL

I think the biggest danger in the car for us is that one of my children would put the car into gear and push the gas pedal. I assure you he knows which one to push, too. I generally ask my oldest to accompany the younger children because they run to the car and let themselves in while it is warming up in the morning. Yes it is running and the transmission will not work if I don't warm it up for a long while.

The world is full of dangers that our children must learn self-control to protect _themselves_ from. They simply must _gradually_ become responsible for their own safety. At a certain age, we can let them walk ahead of us to a street corner and trust them to stop themselves. At a certain point, they are unlikely to push the gas pedal, or to trust a strange but friendly man. At a certain point, we can only tell them about making the right choice to be safe and hope that they will do it. And yes, it is actually possible that my son will crash the car into the garage door once before he grows up. He wouldn't be the first one to do that and survive. And he would never do it again. (Kinda like pulling those fire alarms.) Now, I _don't_ actually want him to have that particular learning experience, but it might happen. I have told him and told him, which worked for making him nervous about the street (walking out into the street is WAY higher on my parental fear list than anything that could happen inside our car) And he will choose in real life, sometimes, whether to keep himself safe after I have made my best effort at communication. I control what I can, I try to be thoughtful and careful and to choose my battles because there is no controlling everything and what a drag it would be to do so...

Anyhow, three of my children are now school-age. One can walk across town by herself, go through large stores and make purchases by herself, and even take a sibling on a walk without me sometimes. She has a paid job as a parent's helper/babysitter, even. I mean, if your kid is mature enough to be able to go to the ATM for you while _you_ sit in the car then it is probably okay to leave her in the car while you go :LOL

I dunno, maybe I am just old-fashioned about kids' freedom or plain lazy. Maybe I believe in guardian angels and trust in the good of the world, in God, in the natural order, in the idea that our lives become what they are to be according to a greater plan that I do not control anyway... That my job is to do my best and that there is a higher power filling in the gaps of my imperfections. Even deep sorrow I cannot know or control whether and how it may touch our lives.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
The thing is, PoppyMama, the _vast_ majority of unvaxing mamas (and I'm not one of them, actually) have researched the bejeezus out of the vaxing issue left, right, and center -- as have the mamas who cosleep, long-term nurse, and homeschool (and I'm the last three). Most of those moms have really considered the danger-to-benefit ratio and have concluded that those practices ultimately are worth the down side.

I'm not so sure this same mindset pertains to moms who leave their kids in cars. Some do it more thoughtfully, others (and I honestly think this is the majority) do it rather thoughtlessly. It's one thing to nurse a child until they're five; it's another thing to take the risk of your child being snatched by a stranger while you're getting your mochaccino.









That is your perception, I'm not saying it is not well thought out but others might perceive differently.

I would not do the window rolled down thing. I do not believe the statistics would show that it is more dangerous than some other choices but it is outside my comfort zone. And if someone had to break my window and with what my children have been trained to do- people would notice.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
This really pisses me off. If I was paying for gas and I saw some stranger hanging around my car where my children were, I'd be angry and I _would_ probably lecture. How on earth is it safer for me, or anyone else, to drag my children out of the car and to the payment window where other cars are driving around than it is for me to leave them in the car? They are no further away from me than they would be at the park.

*DC: If you were a stone's throw away and paying at the pump, I bet you'd be back pretty quick and it's not as if I would just be standing there staring. I would look around. And you can't compare a kid who's 10 to an infant or toddler. Your stretching it. Please share with us statistics where it is safer to leave your child in the car versus incidents of accidents where parents took their kid with them to pay for their gas.*

Your definition of "right" is seriously off. Where I live, the law says that children over the age of ten can be in cars unattended. They can walk around their neighborhood unattended and they can stay home alone unattended for periods of time no greater than three hours and not after 9:00pm. If you are running around playing police I sure as hell hope that you are aware of the laws and ordinances in your area.

*DC: That's your opinion. I'm betting the babies who cannot speak, would thank me. And FTR, other than specifically mentioning babies and toddlers, where did I speak of a child who is 10? And who the hell is "playing police"? :LOL I would much rather be a cop than turn my head, mind my own business and go on my merry way ignoring a dangerous situation. I'm guessing that's what you do right? Isn't the liberal way to help all people?*

And the whole "I went through so much to have my kids" thing makes me a little ill. Women who had easy pregnancies and births DON'T love their kids as much as those who had difficult ones?

*DC: I knew someone would comment on that. Best to get yourself a bucket. MY feelings...never said anyone else didn't feel that way about their kids. Pull the frickin quote. Bet you won't find one.*

Jeez. I have to believe that those of you who are going off on this are talking about very young children, as in toddlers or early elementary school age kids. Because if anyone ever said anything to me about a 10yo, I'd flip out on them.

*DC: Before flipping out on me, I suggest you re-read what my experience has been. I have reported BABIES AND TODDLERS left alone in cars. Um, isn't that what you just said? So what's your problem with my post? Typical... reading into things, putting words in my mouth, and overreacting.*


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

deeporgartan- I liked your post! I think I need to prepare my children for more freedoms not less. Every freedom I prepare them for and give them makes them ultimately safer.

I had GOBS of freedom. I also had some not so great things come out of that but no matter how deeply I pick it apart I cannot regret one bit of my freedom. It is probably the most precious thing to me. That is not true for everyone but it is my reality.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

That's not altogether true, Charles. Pedophiles are no more common here than anywhere.

And i still am looking for the latte abductions stats.

The thing is, it's more dangerous in East LA than it might be in Mardrid, if you're talking gang hits. But if you're talking theft of jewlery off people walking arond town, or the pcikpocketing of wallets, Madrid, Rome etc are pretty tough places.

But we are not talking about taking chances where gang colors or tourists are. We're talking about getting gas at a known Mobil station and getting a Latte at a local coffee shop.

Facts are facts. But if you can show me any stats **at all** of children in locked cars being abducted from these places in the 5 minutes it takes to pump gas or pour coffee, mea culpa.

The US may have it's danger hot spots, but our abduction rate is down and so it our violent crime rate.

Call me a realist.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

You know...another thing...strip away all of the righteous indignation and the anger and the "it's my kid, stay the hell out of our life" crap and what do you have? A fellow mom or dad who sees a kid in a car with no adult present and it should be acceptable for all of us to ignore the kid and walk on by? I am gobsmacked that this is even remotely conceivable to anyone. Whatever happened to hell thanks a lot for caring enough to make sure my kid, a kid who you don't know, is ok and that a parent, hell anyone, is actually coming back for them. How about a simple thank you instead of becoming a shrieking ungrateful banshee that looks not only like a selfish lazy parent, but possibly psycho as well.
And why would anyone be ANGRY at this person? Why you ask? Well it comes down to one thing....when they called for help, you more than likely will get punished for abandoning your kid. Ticket, fine, arrested, whatever. That's why you'd be pissed. But as usual, this type of folk won't realize that what they did was wrong, and possibly illegal. They are just going to blame YOU for caring and everyone else for their lack of judgement.

Of coarse I'll throw in a disclaimer...YOU is GENERAL. That should cover it.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Eactly. Dallas! I know i am beating an intellectual dead horse here...but how is the child in danger if you are watching out for it?

Why is community not something we cherish? are you not a part of this human community looking out for children who are not your own? Would you stand by while someone takes a child screaming from a car? Would you not call 911? Since you would call, the child is *not* in danger.

Why are people so upset that they might have to keep an eye on children they did not birth? Since we are all keeping an eye out for these kids, what's the danger? Maybe we do not know these children personally, but since we care about them , they are safe.

Most people are not predators.


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## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

It might be one thing to call 911 or say "That's ILLEGAL!" and another to say, "I didn't know if anyone was watching your children out here and it worried me." Think about it. The FIRST thing you do is call the police?!? And wonder why they don't say thank you? I might have missed something here.


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## 2much2luv (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:

I think we all need to stop thinking danger lurks around every corner gas station. because it doesn't.










Quote:

Most people are not predators.


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
Most people are not predators.

But the ones who _are_ predators don't wear a huge sign around their neck saying "I'm a kidnapper/rapist/child abuser. Keep your child away from me!". You simply never know what a stranger will do.


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## grahamsmom98 (May 15, 2002)

*Quote:
I think we all need to stop thinking danger lurks around every corner gas station. because it doesn't.*

It only takes one.

*Quote:
Most people are not predators.*

It only takes one.


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## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

However, there is a place for balance.

If we live as if the world is fearful and people are untrustworthy, we actually cause it to be more true. If our vision of the world is of something inherently unsafe, it colors everything in our lives.


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## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StephandOwen*
But the ones who _are_ predators don't wear a huge sign around their neck saying "I'm a kidnapper/rapist/child abuser. Keep your child away from me!". You simply never know what a stranger will do.

You really don't know what _anyone_ will do. It's usually not strangers who do these things. That's common knowledge, right? And public places aren't favored, either. It just can't be at the top of the list of parental worries in my life.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Isn't it interesting, though, what risks we are comfortable with and what risks we deem too great? For example, most of us know someone who was killed in a car accident. I'm only 28 and I can think of almost ten people I've known, either relatives or people I went to school with or relatives of friends, who were killed in car accidents. Even more relatives who were killed before I was born. Yet most of us don't think twice about loading our kids in the car and driving around daily. I have two neighbors who drive their kids, who are old enough to walk to school according to the community rules, the block and a half to school because they don't think it is safe for them to walk. They are afraid of their kids being abducted. It isn't likely that they are going to be in a fatal car accident on the short, 15mph drive to school, but the chances of them being injured in the car certainly are greater.

I had a friend in college who was a single mother and she walked with her daughter whenever possible because she was so afraid of being in a car accident. She only rode in a vehicle when absolutely necessary and left her daughter in the care of friends the vast majority of the times when she did have to ride in a vehicle. People thought she was nuts. Yet my neighbors scoff at me because I let my son walk the block and a half to school by himself.

My point is that the things we perceive as being risky are greatly influenced by the media and popular culture. We live in a culture of fear, but I think we're afraid of the wrong things. We're worried about razor blades in Halloween candy, but willingly feed our children apples that have been sprayed with known carcinogens and prepare them drinks with tap water that contains Maude only knows what. I'm not excluding myself from this, by the way. My own hypocrisy knows no bounds. (But what did you expect from a dirty liberal?)


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
I'm sure she _was_ embarrassed and didn't feel like justifying herself -- but I honestly think that those are reasonable things to think and feel. I _don't_ think it was reasonable or appropriate to leave her kids -- not a one of whom was over five years old, BTW -- in a car with windows down. I hope she does know it's against the law, and that the cops take it pretty seriously because of the weather here -- we get VERY hot very early, and in-car temps can rise to lethal levels in something like four minutes at noon, so either way (windows up or down) it's a dumb move. Hey, she can be embarrassed or hate me or whatever, but if she stops to think the next time and then decides to take her kids with her, then it'll be worth it.

You know, I"m not sure about this idea that if you call the cops on someone you disapprove of, they are necessarily going to be as incensed as you. (I'm talking about older children, not babies, and not in hot places with windows up, btw)

I say this because I was with a friend when someone called the police about her child in the car. In fact, the mums were watching the car, from very close, and the window was down, and car alarm on. It was obvious to the woman who called - that we were watching the car, but she was clearly as incensed about our choice as some posters here obviously would be.









The policeman was extremely cool about it - said he had young children himself and like us, wasnt going to wake a sleeping toddler unnecessarily. We had a nice friendly chat, he told the woman that there was absolutely no reason for her to get het up about it, that the child was perfectly safe, and he left. No biggie.

All the woman would have needed to do was approach us and ask, but I guess she was too nervous to do so. Or she wanted to get us 'in trouble'.







Who knows, but the cop made it clear that although the letter of the law may be that children should not be left in a car, common sense dictates that parents were allowed to make sensible choices when it came to their child's wellbeing.


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## EMT-Mom (Apr 27, 2005)

I would never leave either one of my kids in the car!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not even at 13 or 14. A few years ago i worked at a 7-11 i had a customer that had her 5 year old in the car when a gang fight broke out she said to me " do you think i should get my 5 year old out of the car or wait until the fight is over" My jaw droped to the ground







. I said you should get her what if they start shooting. When they came back in i told her off. She had the nerve to try and defend her bad jugdement. Even if the car is in sight if some one breaks in it's to late.It only takes a second to break a window.


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## MotherEarthMom (Oct 21, 2004)

I would have called the police and let them handle it.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
Isn't it interesting, though, what risks we are comfortable with and what risks we deem too great? For example, most of us know someone who was killed in a car accident. I'm only 28 and I can think of almost ten people I've known, either relatives or people I went to school with or relatives of friends, who were killed in car accidents. Even more relatives who were killed before I was born. Yet most of us don't think twice about loading our kids in the car and driving around daily. I have two neighbors who drive their kids, who are old enough to walk to school according to the community rules, the block and a half to school because they don't think it is safe for them to walk. They are afraid of their kids being abducted. It isn't likely that they are going to be in a fatal car accident on the short, 15mph drive to school, but the chances of them being injured in the car certainly are greater.

I had a friend in college who was a single mother and she walked with her daughter whenever possible because she was so afraid of being in a car accident. She only rode in a vehicle when absolutely necessary and left her daughter in the care of friends the vast majority of the times when she did have to ride in a vehicle. People thought she was nuts. Yet my neighbors scoff at me because I let my son walk the block and a half to school by himself.

My point is that the things we perceive as being risky are greatly influenced by the media and popular culture. We live in a culture of fear, but I think we're afraid of the wrong things. We're worried about razor blades in Halloween candy, but willingly feed our children apples that have been sprayed with known carcinogens and prepare them drinks with tap water that contains Maude only knows what. I'm not excluding myself from this, by the way. My own hypocrisy knows no bounds. (But what did you expect from a dirty liberal?)

Now this I completely agree with. I have argued this myself in different threads.

I totally agree that the stats for stranger abduction are very very low. And it's not at the top of my list of things to worry about. (It is actually car accidents that I worry about most with the people I love.) And it is not the only reason I don't feel comfortable EVER leaving my young kids in the car. I can't even pinpoint exactly why, but it just doesn't feel right to me. There has yet to be an errand so important that I was willing to do something that felt so risky and wrong to me. By nature I am not a risk taker, and I am admittedly not an overly trusting person. When it comes to my children's safety, I play things very conservatively. Others don't, and that's fine for them, but I certainly don't agree with it.

BTW, I did a quick search and thought I'd post this. Stranger abduction is rare, but not rare enough for me to feel comfortable ignoring it.

_Facts about child abduction
Child abduction is categorized by the abductor's relationship to the abductee. There are three types: family abduction (49 percent), acquaintance abduction (27 percent), and stranger abduction (24 percent).1

Family abduction is most often committed by parents, occurs more frequently to children under six, and most often originates in the home.
Acquaintance abduction involves a much higher number of juvenile abductors, has the highest percent of teenage and female victims, and is most often connected to other crimes like sexual and physical assault. This type of abduction has the highest percent of injured victims.
Stranger abduction occurs to more females than males, takes place most frequently in outdoor locations, victimizes primarily both teenagers and school-age children, is commonly connected to sexual assaults with female victims and robberies with male victims, and is the type of abduction most likely to involve a firearm.
Most non-family abductors take their victims on the street, usually attempting to lure them into their vehicles. In the majority of abductions by strangers, the first contact between the child and the abductor occurred within a quarter mile of the child's home and rarely are children moved more than 50 miles from this location. Each year, 58,000 children are victims of stranger/non-family abductions.2_

And this:

_Car jackings occur most often at garages, parking lots, intersections, gas stations, car washes, highway entry and exit ramps, or at drive-up ATMs._


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Also, check out www.kidsandcars.org. Several stories of electrical malfunctions igniting parked cars with kids inside, kids starting a fire with the cigarette lighter, kids getting strangled in a seatbelt, etc. All in parked cars while the parent ran in for just a minute.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:

Each year, 58,000 children are victims of stranger/non-family abductions
I don't know where you got this number, but it is false. Think about it. This is about the number of Americans killed in Vietnam. Everyone my parent's age knows someone who died in Vietnam. How many kids do you know that have been abducted? That is a LOT of kids. They'd be disappearing at a rate of hundreds a day. You can't honestly believe that the same total number of Americans killed in Vietnam throughout the entire conflict are abducted by strangers every single year.

In the past few years, the number has been around a hundred stranger abductions per year. I do not have time to find the numbers right now, but I believe that in either 2001 or 2002 only 17 of those children were killed. That is a huge number to each of the families and communities who lost a child. However, when you think about the total number of children in the US, that is a miniscule number.

I don't think that worrying about stranger abduction is playing things conservatively, I think it is a waste of time altogether. The same things we teach our children to protect them against the people they know will also protect them against strangers. The fact of the matter remains that when a bad person decides to do a bad thing, somewhere a child will be hurt. I don't that means it is hopeless, but I also don't think that every parent who has lost a child to violence or whose child has been the victim of violence did something "wrong" or took an extraordinary risk. Teen girls are most often the victims of stranger abductions-- girls who are old enough to be in public or at home alone.

I'm not talking about you specifically, oceanbaby, but I think that nagging thing that gets most people on edge about things like leaving kids alone in a car for a minute, walking to the playground or store alone, or leaving kids alone at home is the perception that crimes that occur in these situations by strangers are common and happen in every town every single day. That just isn't the case at all. This perception is created by the prevalence of crime dramas, the overreporting of crime on the news, the culture of violence in popular media. Most people think nothing of sending their kid off to a birthday party or a playdate at the home of a classmate or neighborhood friend even though THAT is the kind of place they are most likely to be the victim of a crime.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
Also, check out www.kidsandcars.org. Several stories of electrical malfunctions igniting parked cars with kids inside, kids starting a fire with the cigarette lighter, kids getting strangled in a seatbelt, etc. All in parked cars while the parent ran in for just a minute.

I definitely believe that there are good reasons not to leave small children alone in cars, I just don't think that stranger abduction is one of them.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

Most people think nothing of sending their kid off to a birthday party or a playdate at the home of a classmate or neighborhood friend even though THAT is the kind of place they are most likely to be the victim of a crime.
Oh, I'm definitely more worried about this kind of thing, and I think more parents should be. But it doesn't mean that stranger abduction doesn't exist.

I certainly don't want to be misunderstood as saying that we should all be more worried about stranger abduction. I agree that for the most part we as a whole are TOO worried about stranger abduction. But that doesn't mean that I think it should be entirely dismissed. It DOES happen.

But that's not even the top reason why I wouldn't leave my kids alone in the car. It's just one of the reasons. And you may be right that the reason that I am uncomfortable with it is because we live in a culture of misguided fear. But if it feels wrong, it feels wrong, and I am not going to sit and rationalize myself out of it, until I decide that it's okay to leave my kids in the car while I run in to buy some milk. I just don't need the milk that badly. Maybe someone else does, but not me.

And about the number of stranger abductions - I looked at a few more sites (albeit quickly, as I'm trying to go to bed) and there was quite a range, but the lowest number I saw was 16,000 per year, and of those about 100 were killed (doesn't say how many were just never found). That's 1 kid every 3 days abducted and killed by a stranger. (National Center for Missing and Exploited Children)


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
I definitely believe that there are good reasons not to leave small children alone in cars, I just don't think that stranger abduction is one of them.

Ha - we cross posted. Looks like we almost agree!


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

16,000 is still an astonomical number and completely inaccurate.

This is the government agency repsonsible for keeping crime statistics.

http://www.ncjrs.org/html/ojjdp/2000_6_2/contents.html

I heard the 58,000 number a few years ago and had the initial gut reaction that my children were in constant danger. I don't think that by accurately understanding the risks our children face we have to "rationalize ourselves out" of anything. The fact is that there are rational fears and irrational fears. When we allow ourselves to be overwhelmed by irrational fears, we tend to ignore the real dangers. I hate to harp on this, but the fact that kids are more likely to be abused at the hands of a trusted family member or aquaitance is something that is ignored in favor of worrying about strangers. Someone very dear to me was molested by a person who took care of him after school because his parents did not want him home alone. Statistically, rationally, logically we should realize that a twelve-year-old at home alone is safer than a twelve-year-old in the care of an adult male. However, we don't.

I'm not saying that worrying about a stranger hurting your child is a completely irrational fear and anyone who worries about such a thing is a moron. All I'm saying is that it does not warrant the intense media coverage it gets and I swear if one more person says something to me about letting my 7yo walk to school alone because he could be kidnapped I'll scream!

And yes, oceanbaby, I think we fundamentally agree on the fact that there are dangers to leaving small children unattended in cars, which was the point of this thread. But I'm not sorry for derailing, because I hope that maybe one person reading this will think more about the people in their lives.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Now you're just keeping me up!

I really agree with what you are saying (I have also read "Protecting the Gift"). And like I said in my very first post, I don't have a 7 year old, so I can't say how I feel about leaving a 7yo in a car alone or letting them walk to school alone, and I certainly wouldn't try to tell you whether your 7 year old should be walking to school alone or not.

And to be honest, it doesn't really matter to me what the number of stranger abductions are - I am just saying that they can and do happen. And while I totally agree that we shouldn't be focused on them, I don't agree that it should be dismissed entirely. (I also want to point out that in my first few posts I was talking about someone stealing a car and not even realizing there was a kid inside, not someone trying to abduct a child. I don't even remember now how I found myself on the side of defending the threat of stranger abductions!)


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EMT-Mom*
I would never leave either one of my kids in the car!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not even at 13 or 14. A few years ago i worked at a 7-11 i had a customer that had her 5 year old in the car when a gang fight broke out she said to me " do you think i should get my 5 year old out of the car or wait until the fight is over" My jaw droped to the ground







. I said you should get her what if they start shooting. When they came back in i told her off. She had the nerve to try and defend her bad jugdement. Even if the car is in sight if some one breaks in it's to late.It only takes a second to break a window.

So, in the 2 years between 14 and 16 (driver's license age) your kids will magically mature enough to handle being in a car alone? Or will you not allow them to get a license or require that they always have you in the car?

Every time this topic comes up I post the same thing. Calculate the risks in your mind and do what YOU think is safe based on kids age, location, duration of absense, etc..... And stop tsk tsking everyone else that does not agree with you 100%. Obviously there are extremes and concern is warrented like infants being seemingly abondonned or kids locked in on hot days..... But other than that, stay out of it!

I agree with Mothra and others that point out that stranger abductions are so much less common than injuries from just being in a moving car. Lets all stop watching the news horror stories and assess risk the way we used to....before the news had to worry about ratings sweeps. I do not even watch the news. I read my local paper and can tell you that not one single child has been abducted from a car in this town (or the surrounding towns) in the entire 10 years I have lived here. Do I go grocery shopping and leave 21 month old dd in the car? No, of course not. But I have run into situations where I have assessed the risks and decided that leaving a sleeping baby strapped in the car for 2 seconds while I return a video to the slot is safer than dragging her with me. Especially since a child has been injured by a moving car in the Blockbuster parking lot (that was in the paper). If you disagree, fine, don't do that. But to say anyone who does is a bad parent is just WAY off base. And to call the police on a situation where no one is in danger and the parents are 20 feet away and obxiously coming back is just mean. And if you do it to me, do not be surprised if I don't thank you.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

That's it exactly, Yoopervegan.

And it's not that bad things do not happen, it's that we need to live in reality, not in Afterschool Specials. You could go through life living in fear, thinking a plane will crash on your house (because it does happen) or you can go through life realizing that each day is a gift and see love and joy around you. See people as inherently decent--because most people are. If you are looking at all your neighbors and all the folks at the local gas station as potential abducters, you invite negativity and fear into your heart evey minute. You might as well sit in your house everyday--with bars on the windows etc., because kids get taken from their own bedrooms.

A kid sleeping in car as Britshmum described is not at risk at all. But the person calling the cops is living in fear, or anger. Whenever our first thought is abduction or death or call the cops, we are not acting in compassionate ways-- we are not caring about each other. We are participating in a horrible
Springer show where creating drama and anger and fear-mongering is more important than wanting to create a safe, loving community. If you are calling the cops on your neighbors when it isn't warranted, you're not thinking about the long term affects of living in a loving, thoughtful community.

Lending a hand is contributing to quality of life- for you and for the people around you. Putting out negative energy and assuming the parent cares more about a latte than her kids is completely counter-poductive to creating a compassionate , liveable society.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Yoopervegan- Yep!

All those horrible neglect cases will not be stopped by persecuting good parents who have made an educated choice for their family.

Carjacking is scary and it does happen around me! It happens when the keys are left in the ignition with no one in the drivers seat- bad choice regardless of whether there are ANY children in the car. Leaving the keys in the ignition is like wrapping the car in a big bow and sending a general "shout-out" to carjackers. It also happens when people go to there car and after they have opened the drivers door. I always put my kids in first before I get in so nothing I do regarding them will help in this situation.

As for that mom being horrible because a gangfight broke out and her daughter was in the car. Come on! There is a horror story for everything and we are never totally safe. I have heard a lot more child stolen from their own bed stories than child stolen from locked car stories but I do let my kids go to bed everynight.


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
My point is that the things we perceive as being risky are greatly influenced by the media and popular culture. We live in a culture of fear, but I think we're afraid of the wrong things. We're worried about razor blades in Halloween candy, but willingly feed our children apples that have been sprayed with known carcinogens and prepare them drinks with tap water that contains Maude only knows what. I'm not excluding myself from this, by the way. My own hypocrisy knows no bounds. (But what did you expect from a dirty liberal?)

:LOL








:

This has been a great discussion.
Kaly


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## zipperump-a-zoomum (Jan 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
Lending a hand is contributing to quality of life- for you and for the people around you. Putting out negative energy and assuming the parent cares more about a latte than her kids is completely counter-poductive to creating a compassionate , liveable society.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
I'm sure she _was_ embarrassed and didn't feel like justifying herself -- but I honestly think that those are reasonable things to think and feel. I _don't_ think it was reasonable or appropriate to leave her kids -- not a one of whom was over five years old, BTW -- in a car with windows down. I hope she does know it's against the law, and that the cops take it pretty seriously because of the weather here -- we get VERY hot very early, and in-car temps can rise to lethal levels in something like four minutes at noon, so either way (windows up or down) it's a dumb move. Hey, she can be embarrassed or hate me or whatever, but if she stops to think the next time and then decides to take her kids with her, then it'll be worth it.

From your original post on the situation, it just seemed like you were mad that she didn't show the proper remorse and apologize profusely and thank you a million times over for waching out for her kids...so you called the police on her to get back at her for her not respecting you.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

http://www.4rkidssake.org/AZ1357.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5126a3.htm
http://www.4rkidssake.org/WI3033.htm
http://www.4rkidssake.org/CA1494.htm
http://www.4rkidssake.org/TX1440.htm
http://www.4rkidssake.org/FL1427.htm
http://www.4rkidssake.org/CA1418.htm
http://www.4rkidssake.org/AR1417.htm
http://www.4rkidssake.org/AZ1425.htm
http://www.4rkidssake.org/AZ1357.htm
http://www.4rkidssake.org/TN1348b.htm
http://tv.ksl.com/index.php?nid=5&sid=30826
http://www.4rkidssake.org/FL1323.htm

Cop frees girl, 6, locked in hot van;
Grandmother booked on cruelty charge
The Times-Picayune
May 20, 2003

Salinas woman arrested; allegedly left child in hot car
The Press Enterprise
Riverside, CA
May 19, 2003

Baby girl dies after being left in car
The Journal Net
Johnson County, IN
May 15, 2003

Father probed in death of toddler left in car
AJC.com
Lawrenceville, GA
May 8, 2003

Mom allegedly left toddlers in hot car while having fortune told
ABC 13, KTRK TV - Houston
Houston, TX
May 6, 2003

Baby Left In Hot Car While Mother Shops
WOAI.com
San Antonio, TX
May 1, 2003

Baby girl locked in hot car dies; mom could face murder charges
The Sun-Sentinel
Fort Lauderdale, FL
April 26, 2003

Boy, 3, Trapped in Car, Later Dies;
His mother and her cousin find him after searching for at least an hour.
The Ledger
Winter Haven, FL
April 7, 2003

Covina woman suspected of leaving baby in car
SGV Tribune
San Gabriel Valley, CA
March 31, 2003

Father Charged With Abuse After Child Found In Hot Car
The Tampa Tribune
New Port Richey, FL
March 8, 2003

Woman arrested for leaving child in car outside store
Naples Daily News Naples, FL
March 5, 2003

Parents Accused of Leaving Child in Hot Car in Ninety-Degree Temps
WAJR Radio News (Morgantowns Dot Com) Morgantown, OH
February 26, 2003

These are senseless deaths that are *100% preventable*. These stories are only the tip of the iceberg.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
Calculate the risks in your mind and do what YOU think is safe based on kids age, location, duration of absense, etc..... And stop tsk tsking everyone else that does not agree with you 100%. Obviously there are extremes and concern is warrented like infants being seemingly abondonned or kids locked in on hot days..... But other than that, stay out of it!

Do I go grocery shopping and leave 21 month old dd in the car? No, of course not. But I have run into situations where I have assessed the risks and decided that leaving a sleeping baby strapped in the car for 2 seconds while I return a video to the slot is safer than dragging her with me. Especially since a child has been injured by a moving car in the Blockbuster parking lot (that was in the paper). If you disagree, fine, don't do that. But to say anyone who does is a bad parent is just WAY off base. And to call the police on a situation where no one is in danger and the parents are 20 feet away and obxiously coming back is just mean. And if you do it to me, do not be surprised if I don't thank you.

ITA. And if you do call the police, don't be surprised or disappointed if they don't feel that there is as a big a deal as you. As I said in my earlier post (missed it seems by most people), when this happened to me, the policeman could not have been more supportive of our decision and risk assessment, and the lady who reported us did not get her drama.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

And more:

http://ggweather.com/heat/35_2004.htm

http://capmag.com/article.asp?ID=2944
Summary: It is absolutely unfathomable to me that anyone could leave a child forgotten in a car, like an old umbrella or a fast-food wrapper.

http://www.safekids.org/content_docu...EASE-FINAL.doc

*How hot does your car get?*http://www.safekids.org/content_docu...EASE-FINAL.doc

Parents running quick errands may think their cars will remain cool, but even on mild days temperatures inside vehicles can rise to dangerous levels in minutes. A young child's core body temperature can increase three to five times faster than that of an adult, causing permanent injury or death.
http://www.safekids.org/tier2_rl.cfm?folder_id=980

So many deaths. And for what?


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I've got to get going, but I wanted to respond to a couple of posts that have referred to those of us who don't leave our children in cars as being "paranoid" and "living in After School Specials." Could we please have a little of the same respect that you are demanding for your decision to leave your kids in the car? You want others to butt out of your decision to leave your kid in the car, and to recognize that you are not a bad parent because you do so. Fine, I've never said you were a bad parent, and I've explicitly said that I would not call the cops.

But I ask in return that you realize that I am not some news-junkie-fear-monger-mindless-sheep just because I choose NOT to take that risk. You don't want to justify your decision to leave your kids in the car, and I certainly am not going to continue to justify my decision not to.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

dallaschildren- I get your point! I don't think anyone here is saying that is OK. I know how fast a car can get hot and because of my location (not so far from you) my children come in with me much of the year. The weather in my area is such that an adult should not be waiting in a closed car for more than 1-2 minutes most of the year. Even a car with the window rolled down (which I will not do with children unless I am close to the car and the keys are with me) is not safe for more than a minute or two where I live, for children or adults. I assess every situation and decide what is best.

Those cases where helpless children are left/forgotten and die in cars totally baffle me. I cannot even imagine it. I said earlier that I accidentally locked my ds in the car once and my dd locked herself in once, both during hot times of the year. I can attest to how awful it is. I watched every minute while waiting for the police and they overheat VERY quickly.

If I saw a helpless child in a car and I felt that it was questionable I would make sure they were safe. Not necessarily because I wanted to have the parents punished but because I would want others to look out for my children. Something could have happened- who knows? If the parents came back and it was clear that the children were not in danger I would smile and move on. I also help children who have become separated from their parents in stores, not because I think their parents are awful but because that stuff happens and I would want someone to help my children. I pick up children who have fallen down on the playground and I ask crying children if I can help. DISCLAIMER- I never take children from the area they are in or tell them to come with me.


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

This has been a great discussion; Mothra, UUMom, Yoopervegan, Britishmum, PoppyMama, you are making such great points. I fully believe that how we see the world impacts how the world is. There is so much fear and anger right now in North America and it's not benefitting our kids or the communities we live in.

dallaschildren, you keep coming back to babes left in cars while parents shop and are neglectful, but that wasn't what was going on in the first post - the children were 7 and 8 and in a locked vehicle at a seasonally appropriate time. No one here is arguing for the right to have their tarot cards read while their infant sits in a car during the summer in Texas. That's ridiculous. What I have been reading is a discussion about risk assessment and informed decisions and parents using their common sense and being respected for that.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

oceanbaby- I would never suggest that a parent should put their children in a situation that makes them uncomfortable.







We all have our own comfort levels. I would not let a child walk to school alone. It makes me uncomfortable and I do not wish to feel that way. It is obvious that we all think deeply into our decisions as parents.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*

In the past few years, the number has been around a hundred stranger abductions per year. I do not have time to find the numbers right now, but I believe that in either 2001 or 2002 only 17 of those children were killed. That is a huge number to each of the families and communities who lost a child. However, when you think about the total number of children in the US, that is a miniscule number.

And not one of those in Hawaii, Mothra.


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## Raynbow (Aug 2, 2004)

I let Sebastian in the car *with the doors locked* if he wants and if I am just going to be a few minutes - granted, he is almost 12.
I admit, if T is sleeping and Sebastian is willing *and* the run into the store is literally an "under five minutes trip", I will let them stay - WITH THE DOORS LOCKED (and windows either completely up or an inch open (no more) (and not if there is a risk of overheating or getting cold).
As for would I ever leave T alone in the car? Nope. I'd worry too much that he'd freak out if he awoke and found himself alone. I feel bad getting gas when he is alone in the car (I never leave the side of the car - pay at pump).
And for older then 2 or 3 (& under 10), I'd worry that they'd accidentally knock the car out of park or whatever... or get out and get hit... too many variables. I guess if you could *always* see the car and the child in the car, that'd be different, but if it/they/s/he are out of your sight for even a minute... no, too many chances for trouble.
I was maybe 7 when I climbed into my mom's big old black car (late 70's) and managed to knock it into reverse and went for a brief and utterly terrifying ride in a circle, crashing into our barn.
*shudder*

If I saw a child alone in a car? I'd wait as long as I could and hope the parent came out... if they didn't? And I *had* to leave? I'd go into the store and try to find them/page them, then wait by the car for them to come out. Never had that happen, though.


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## UmmBnB (Mar 28, 2005)

The one time that I saw a child in a car I called the police. It was a toddler, looked to be about 2 or 3, sleeping in her car seat in the back of a minivan. I was coming back from my noon-time walk and it was in the parking lot of my office. The mom had run in to pick up an older child from a class (I work at a Museum). I don't know what the outcome was, I went back to my office when the police arrived.


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## Raynbow (Aug 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren*
And if we REALLY have to have the loaf of bread I either wait until DH comes home,


Nice that you have that option. Some don't. My husband hasn't been home in over two years. That'd be an awfully long time to wait for bread...









**Sorry, DC, I apparently missed where you said you only call 911 for babies and toddlers, so you can just disregard the following paragraphs... it's only if called regardless of the age**









What happens when the police arrive (which most likely will be AFTER the parent does) and you learn that the "child" in the car is 12? or 14? or 16?
My almost 12 yr old physically looks like an 8 yr old. He will be 12 in 3 weeks. He is *beyond* mature enough to stay in the car for five minutes while I run into the store. He is mature enough to watch over his sleeping brother (latched into a car seat) for a few minutes in a locked car, if need be (understand, that is a VERY rare situation - it has only happened ONCE - T was sick and had *FINALLY* fallen asleep and I had to go in to the pharmacy to pick up his prescription).
I have no doubt that he will continue to look physically younger by YEARS then he really is... which means that when he is 14, he may well look 9 or 10.

You (in general) need to be very careful with calling 911. Eventually, you might face a "false report" charge if the police come to enough "false alarms" (as determined by them) initiated by you. Not saying that to be mean or rude, but just to make sure you know your risk (criminal justice major, force of habit!







)...


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
That's not altogether true, Charles. Pedophiles are no more common here than anywhere.

And i still am looking for the latte abductions stats.

But we are not talking about taking chances where gang colors or tourists are. We're talking about getting gas at a known Mobil station and getting a Latte at a local coffee shop.

Facts are facts. But if you can show me any stats **at all** of children in locked cars being abducted from these places in the 5 minutes it takes to pump gas or pour coffee, mea culpa.

The US may have it's danger hot spots, but our abduction rate is down and so it our violent crime rate.

Call me a realist.


I would, but I really can't. You do realize that by asking for something as absurd as "latte abduction stats" that you're rendering this relatively serious issue considerably less so. The fact is, if children are abducted 12 times from the parking lots of (for example) Catholic churches, that doesn't imply that the _Baptist_ ones are automatically safe. If a person's child is the victim of a flasher in front of Starbucks, it doesn't mean that parking them in front of 7-11 is safer.
I would honestly appreciate your dealing with me and others in a more straightforward, less absurdistly reductive manner, because I really don't think that it helps us arrive at any greater truth and certainly doesn't demonstrate the respect I think we all need to have here.


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## Raynbow (Aug 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
I'll confess--- i let my 6 yr old walk with our neighbors and my 12 yr old dd, to the local playground today. I didn't even go with them!

You brave mum, you!









My own little over-protectiveness, I won't let my almost 12 yr old walk to the playground without a buddy... but, then again, I've posted numerous times on our local playground (notorious for ignored/alone kids ages 2 and up) & the fact that it is on the border of druggie-land.


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## Raynbow (Aug 2, 2004)

I think this also plays a part - in my area, locked cars are never stolen. Alot of people still leave their cars unlocked over night. Many leave their cars running while they run into the store/gas station/bank/whatever.
Even THOSE cars are rarely stolen - and then only by joyriding teens.
People routinely leave their keys in their cars overnight...
BIG difference.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren*
Whatever happened to hell thanks a lot for caring enough to make sure my kid, a kid who you don't know, is ok and that a parent, hell anyone, is actually coming back for them. How about a simple thank you instead of becoming a shrieking ungrateful banshee that looks not only like a selfish lazy parent, but possibly psycho as well.

Hey, one of my worst fears -- a neurosis, really -- is of accidentally leaving my child in my car. This is a nightmare, especially now where I live, where (as I mentioned before), the temps rise to lethal levels within about four minutes during the summertime.

I would REALLY APPRECIATE knowing that there would be some nosy, bitchy, self-righteous mama who would stick her nose into my private business, call the cops, and *save my child* if God forbid, I left her in the car. I'd rather go to jail forever than have her die because of my negligence. Knowing that there ARE mothers out there who would call the cops to Slim Jim my door and let her out before she literally broils to death makes me greatly relieved. Please, at least with me, fellow mamas, PEEK IN MY CAR. BE NOSY. PLEASE FEEL FREE TO CALL THE COPS IF I EVER, EVER SCREW UP and leave my kid in the car.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

Facts are facts. But if you can show me any stats **at all** of children in locked cars being abducted from these places in the 5 minutes it takes to pump gas or pour coffee, mea culpa.
_Alleged kidnapper leaves child at police station
A 2-year-old left alone in a car Wednesday was abducted by a stranger and taken to McDonald's before being dropped off in the lobby of the Santa Barbara Police Station, tears in his eyes and a Happy Meal in his hands.

His alleged kidnapper tried to run off but was apprehended and was being held for psychiatric evaluation.

The boy's parents called police at 2:50 p.m. to report their child was kidnapped from their car at 34 E. Sola St. Their 6-year-old daughter, who was keeping an eye on her brother from a nearby business while the parents were inside, told them a woman ran off with the toddler after unbuckling the sleeping boy from his car seat.

Witnesses told officers they saw a woman running from the area with a crying child in tow.

After stopping at the nearby fast-food restaurant on State Street, the woman ended up at police headquarters on Figueroa Street, four blocks away.

"She showed up at the station 22 minutes after the abduction was reported to us," said Lt. Paul McCaffrey of the Santa Barbara Police Department.

"She tried to leave without identifying herself. I had to run out and grab her. I caught up with her in front of the station. She did not want to remain or even say who she was."

The woman told authorities she found the boy and bought him a Happy Meal.

"It did not make the child happy," said Lt. McCaffrey. "He was upset and crying. It was a very unhappy time for him."

Authorities said the 31-year-old woman may have no children and saw taking the boy as a way to get one of her own. She is known to police but they would neither elaborate nor release her name.

Santa Barbara Police Sgt. Kim Fryslie said the incident appears to be based "on an irrational act rather than a criminal act."

The county Mental Health Team came to the police station and determined the woman, who lives in Santa Barbara, should be placed in a secure facility for up to 72 hours, said Sgt. Fryslie.

The boy was unharmed and in good health, and was reunited with his family at the police station.

Police said the parents are from Goleta but would not release their names.

Authorities had not decided late Wednesday whether to cite the parents for leaving their child unattended.

"The main thing right now is that everyone is safe and sound," Lt. McCaffrey said. "The parents are aware that they made a mistake by leaving their child unattended. They learned a painful lesson.

"Parents need to be aware of the potential tragedy of leaving a child unattended even briefly," he said.

WKMG 6
March 22, 2001

POLICE SEARCH FOR ATTEMPTED ABDUCTION SUSPECT

A man allegedly attempted to abduct two children Wednesday from a car in the parking lot of a Longwood church, according to WKMG News.

The mother of the girls, ages 3 and 8, pulled into the church parking lot on North Street, ran inside and left the children in the car, according to Longwood police.

A white male with a beard, wearing dark clothes and a baseball hat approached the car and told the girls that their father had sent him to pick them up. The suspect reached through a car window and tried to unlock the door, but the girls started screaming and he fled, according to police.

The mother came out of the church building and found her children crying hysterically, according to officials. They told her what happened, and she called 911.

Longwood police conducted a search with the K-9 unit and the Seminole County helicopter and discovered a suspect on North Street who matched the description given by the girls.

He was questioned by police, but was released after investigators said that he was in the Altamonte Mall at the time of the incident._

And this is from a website I found that teaches people who to break into cars, and advises them on what to steal.








_---------------------How to steal a Car.

First you need to get into the car. The easiest atest way is
to use a device that all the towing companies use in case you locked
your keys in your car. Well here is the design for it. Make it out
of sheet metal or just use a metal ruler about an inch by 2 feet and
make it as close as you can to the diagram.

_
\
\
\
/
__/ /
/
\_

_______

Once you have contructed this thing, stick it into the side of the door
(between the window and the door) and feel for a pin inside. Once you
have found it, push down slowly and the pull up fast and it should work.
It make take some practice, but you will get it eventually.
Yes, we have all the seen the movies and how those bad guys can easily
duck under the dashboard and two seconds later have the car started. Is
this possible? Yes it is, just it takes quite a bit of practice to
get as good as they._

And according a different child/auto safety website: _It only takes 30 seconds for a skilled criminal to break into a locked car and steal your most precious possession._
Again, I'm not saying it's an epidemic. I'm saying it CAN happen.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kavamamakava*
From your original post on the situation, it just seemed like you were mad that she didn't show the proper remorse and apologize profusely and thank you a million times over for waching out for her kids...so you called the police on her to get back at her for her not respecting you.

I called them because she didn't care about her kids enough to keep them safe. To hell with what she thinks about me. I don't need anyone's lips on my butt.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raynbow*
Nice that you have that option. Some don't. My husband hasn't been home in over two years. That'd be an awfully long time to wait for bread...









You call 9-1-1? What happens when the police arrive (which most likely will be AFTER the parent does) and you learn that the "child" in the car is 12? or 14? or 16?
My almost 12 yr old physically looks like an 8 yr old. He will be 12 in 3 weeks. He is *beyond* mature enough to stay in the car for five minutes while I run into the store. He is mature enough to watch over his sleeping brother (latched into a car seat) for a few minutes in a locked car, if need be (understand, that is a VERY rare situation - it has only happened ONCE - T was sick and had *FINALLY* fallen asleep and I had to go in to the pharmacy to pick up his prescription).
I have no doubt that he will continue to look physically younger by YEARS then he really is... which means that when he is 14, he may well look 9 or 10.

You need to be very careful with the jumping on 911. Eventually, you might face a "false report" charge if the police come running to enough false alarms initiated by you. Not saying that to be mean or rude, but just to make sure you know your risk (criminal justice major, force of habit!







)... they will also stop responding to your calls. Emergency services are strained enough - if they decide that you are a chronic false reporter, they will take action.

RE-READ MY ENTIRE POST. Or did you even read it? Most of your comments do not apply to MY post. Maybe you are confusing mine with someone else's? And I work with police on a weekly basis. So um, thanks for the concern, but I do not believe I would be dubbed a "false reporter".


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## moma justice (Aug 16, 2003)

just for the record
i KNOW a girl (woman now) who was abducted by a stranger, in her neighborhood on the way to the playground, she was 12 years old and he stopped her for dierections (he was in his car) she just stopped to hear his question and he opened the car door and pulle dher into it and drove off
her little sister was right there with her (she was 10) and it was on a somewhat bsuy street in the middle of the day

he took the girl to another wooded area (again local)
and raped her
beat her
and strangled her
left her dead (or so he thought)

sister came home and told the mom what happened they find the girl that evening
they even find the guy that montha dn arrest him
turns out he is already a convicted sex offender
they go to trail she and her sister go on the stand
he is found guilty
he is out back on the street in less than 10 years.
and
he does it again
he is now in jail for life.

i do not know if i will let my dd walk around our hood by herself as a older child.
i hate it that the world is that scary but it is.

my mom let us run around unsupervised a lot (but we lived on over 100 acres of forest adn farm land) but i guess one of us still could have died......

i go back and forth, paranoid to lets have faith and live the way we want things to be etc


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Things like what momajustice mention DO concern me. I do educate my dc and role play with them so they can see exactly what I expect, but I still worry. I know this situation is rare but I was approached by a child molester as when I was about 7-8 on the street in my neighborhood between my house and my school. My school was just around the corner and I didn't even have to cross a street. I was able to recognize the danger and get away and I do everything possible to ensure my dc make the best decisions and one day soon I will have to allow them to spread their wings a little more....


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nicole lisa*
dallaschildren, you keep coming back to babes left in cars while parents shop and are neglectful, but that wasn't what was going on in the first post - the children were 7 and 8 and in a locked vehicle at a seasonally appropriate time. No one here is arguing for the right to have their tarot cards read while their infant sits in a car during the summer in Texas. That's ridiculous. What I have been reading is a discussion about risk assessment and informed decisions and parents using their common sense and being respected for that.

I would be more than happy to quote numerous news articles about other ways children die or are injured in cars if you would like. Furthermore, the reason I "keep coming back to babes left in cars" is that there is NO difference between a mom who runs into the store for just a few minutes and one who gets a tarot card reading (funny that you decide to use THAT story out of the numerous others..pull the ridiculous story and try to make Dallaschildren's link examples look ridiculous). It is human nature to become complacent....when you do it once, you will do it again. And the time you are away and you're kids are alone, will get progressively longer every time you do it. People think, I've done it a zillion times and nothing has ever happened before, so why would it now?
Another question...I think if you have to run into the store, get your drycleaning, pay inside for gas, whatever....if it's ok to leave your kid in the car to do so, then why in the hell take them in the first place? Why not leave them locked up in your house? Take your toddler or infant, or young child, lock them in a room, put them in their playpen, whatever, and go. After all the child will be better off alone in your home then locked in your car for the world to see. If you think there is a world of difference between the two scenarios, that's crazy. I don't get how some would never think of leaving their young ones alone in the house, but will do it in a car in public. Where's the "attachment" parenting principle in any of this?
In addition, how could anyone be so sure the parent or caregiver didn't FORGET the kid who's just hanging out in the car alone? You don't have any way of knowing. And if leaving young kids alone in the car wasn't wrong, then why are there laws in every state that address it?


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## Raynbow (Aug 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren*
RE-READ MY ENTIRE POST. Or did you even read it? Most of your comments do not apply to MY post. Maybe you are confusing mine with someone else's? And I work with police on a weekly basis. So um, thanks for the concern, but I do not believe I would be dubbed a "false reporter".


Feel free to read my edit... I did not see that you *only* call 911 if it is a baby or a toddler. Not sure how I missed it, but apparently I did... as did several others. Maybe it is the wording in your original post?


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## Raynbow (Aug 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren*
If I come up to a car and there are children alone in it, I give the parent 60 seconds. If they are not back in 60 seconds, I will pull out my cell phone and dial 9-1-1. I will stand there and wait for emergency personnel to come, or for the parent to come out whichever is first. I will not lecture the parent. It's not my place. I do not care why she/he did it. But I do tell them that I have reported their vehicle and plate for leaving their kids unattended.


Ah, ha! This is why all the confusion. This is the quote from your post - it's easy to think you posted one thing (because you were thinking it while typing) but not actually type it the way you meant. You may have thought it connected easily with something your wrote earlier or may have thought you wrote it differently... but this is exactly what you typed when speaking of calling 911.
This is why so many people are taking offense... because you didn't clearly explain that you only call 911 for babies and toddlers in your statement. no biggie, just a clarification error!


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

dallaschildren did clarify that on request much earlier in the thread. She did state that she has only called 911 when it was an infant or toddler.


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## Raynbow (Aug 2, 2004)

Ah, see! I was just responding (that post) to the one post... I try not to respond to more then one post per post - otherwise I get confused!


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

I was just lettin' everyone know since I'm pretty sure I was the one who badgered her for the 1st clarification. I don't agree with dallaschildren on this subject. I don't think....I have stated repeatedly that no people should be in hot cars but...we go round and round and now I'm getting dizzy.


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## FancyPants (Dec 25, 2004)

I have not read the entire thread, so I apologize in advance. One thing I have noted though is that people posting from cooler parts of the country have not experienced heat such as we have here in southern US. It was 100F yesterday - 100F in May is common. In Texas, I would imagine its the same.
There is a world of difference between leaving your child (even an older one) in the car in Texas, Alabama or Arizona than leaving that child in a car for the same length of time in Washington State.

I used to leave my sleeping tots in the car in our locked, attached garage while I unloaded groceries. Then I would take them out. This drove my FIL crazy. He made me wait in the car for 6 minutes. It gets HOT fast but people really don't realize this concretely.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

I don't think I would feel comfortable leaving dd without adult supervision in a car until she is at least 12... I really can't imagine why if I brought her in the car I would not bring her with me.

About reporting other people... if I felt the kids were in danger I would feel bound to report the situation to authorities. If they deem the situation to be no big deal then fine I overreacted. But I'd rather that on my conscience than to not report a kid who really was in danger and have them hurt or killed.
I guess you should know the laws of your state concerning leaving kids alone in cars and use that and your own conscience as your guide in what to do if you see it happen.


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

I've been following this whole thread and I wonder how many of those kids that have died in cars were seen before but the person didn't call 911 or attempt to find the parents? That would haunt me forever- if I saw a child in a car alone but went on my merry way and later find out he was left there for hours, or something else (although rare- I think we all agree on that) happened to him/her. I would rather call 911 and risk it being unneeded (mom or dad comes out of the store within a minute or whatever) than not call and regret it later.

FTR- if anyone sees my DS in the car please do call the cops. I would be eternally grateful.


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## sillymommaX2 (May 11, 2005)

About 6 years ago my sister and I were at a shopping center and we came outside to get into our car and there were 2 toddlers sitting in their car. It was SUMMER time probably about 80 degrees. The windows were down a bit and we could see the kids in the carseat sweating. I was freaking out. I told my sister I will give this person 5 mintues to get out her than I am calling the cops. We stood at the windows to block the sun on them. Mom came out like 3 mintues later and I flipped out. She started to cry and said you are right OMG I cant believe I did that. I didnt think it would take long. And so on.

I probably would not have called the cops but I would have gone into the store and made an announcement.

Parents really need to think before they do that. Your kids can die in a car.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onlyzombiecat*
I don't think I would feel comfortable leaving dd without adult supervision in a car until she is at least 12... I really can't imagine why if I brought her in the car I would not bring her with me.

Will you require immediate adult supervison across the board between 8-12+, or just in a car? Not being snarky at all I would just like to know if it is this particular issue that bothers you.

To the others- I believe that we have all agreed that temp. is a deal breaker. Yes, I know how fast it can get hot in a car and I have stated that it is dangerous for ALL humans/animals regardless of age.


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## ozzyemm (Apr 15, 2005)

I would never leave any living thing alone in a car because it gets over 100 degrees in the summer, and even in 70 degree weather the inside of a parked car can get VERY hot.

I don't really care about safety issues; I mean if I had kids, I would, but I would take them in with me (I have done so with my niece and two nephews, all under the age of 4).

I have passed by parked cars with dogs in them, and have been very tempted to break the window to let the doggie breathe. I am not that crazy about getting arrested or having a dog bite me though







.

Dh's grandma is nearly ninety, and has trouble walking. When we go on marathon shopping trips, she will choose to stay in the car. We leave the keys in the ignition and the AC/heater on, even though she says she is fine with the car off. If I don't trust an adult in a parked car "for just a minute" there is no way I am leaving little children in a car while I run and do anything.

And yes, my parents often left us in a parked car while they went shopping. My nose was nearly broken once when my brothers slammed my face into the window. I did the same thing to them on a different occasion. We forced my brother to sit on a pencil because we thought it was funny-- all this while waiting for our parents. (We are stairstep children, 1 1/2 years apart from each other. And we were 10 and under when this happened).


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## nicole lisa (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren*
Why not leave them locked up in your house? Take your toddler or infant, or young child, lock them in a room, put them in their playpen, whatever, and go. After all the child will be better off alone in your home then locked in your car for the world to see. If you think there is a world of difference between the two scenarios, that's crazy. I don't get how some would never think of leaving their young ones alone in the house, but will do it in a car in public. Where's the "attachment" parenting principle in any of this?
In addition, how could anyone be so sure the parent or caregiver didn't FORGET the kid who's just hanging out in the car alone? You don't have any way of knowing. And if leaving young kids alone in the car wasn't wrong, then why are there laws in every state that address it?


But again, the original post wasn't about a toddler or infant and that's what you're not addressing. Why take a 7,8 , 9 etc year old child with you instead of leaving them at home? Well maybe you just picked them up from a friends or the soccer field or school. maybe he or she, like me, loved going in the car with his or her parent and asked to go but preferred to wait in the car while the errand was run. I loved going along for a ride if my dad was headed to the bank or the hardware store but not wait in store lines.

Where I live a child of 10 can be left home alone, so I don't see what the problem is with hanging out in a car listening to music if he or she wants while I run into the grocery store. A child of 12 can legally watch another child at home without adults.

I have looked everywhere on the child safety sites for Canada and on specific police departments' sites and can't find any law here about leaving children unattended in a car. Lots on car seat laws etc, but for instance, the department site for my area lists the car seat laws and then says it is unadvisable to leave your child unattended in a car and discusses how fast temps rise in a car and within a child's body. Maybe that's the difference with how I feel about this. I'm sure there's many a law they could charge a parent of a babe or toddler with, if leaving their babe unattended, but I can't imagine a cop getting all het up about a school aged child. I also can't imagine requiring adult supervision at the park or walking to school or a friends after 9 or 10 years of age. If DS wanted me to join him that'd be different, but he'd be free to go on his own or with friends. But I know my neighbourhood and am comfortable here and with people knowing DS and what's happening on the street. We all make these decisions based on what we and our kids are comfortable with and I think it's important to give parents like the ones in the original post who left their school aged children for a moment the benefit of the doubt and trust they have made an informed decision for their family.

Again, if it had been 100 degrees out that would be different. If the kids were infants/toddlers and unable to get out if need be etc that would be different. But in the OP they weren't any of those things.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nicole lisa*
But again, the original post wasn't about a toddler or infant and that's what you're not addressing.


The thread turned to a broader discussion as most threads naturally do here, on the *second* post. It morphed on that very post to a discussion about younger children...infants and toddlers. Out of the pages of posts here, I think to point *my* post out as being off-topic makes me wonder why. Why?


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

I would like to agree to disagree on this one.

Rest assured everyone, if you see some kids sweating in a car- they aren't mine.

I will continue to look out for children everywhere without interfering (sp?) with their parents choices- unless obviously necessary.

For the people who want the police called if I see their kids in the car- sorry, can't do that but I will check on them and watch out for them until you come back. If they are in immediate danger I will make sure they get to safety. If you obviously made a huge error in judgement I may say something to you- gently. If you read me the riot act I may go home and start the voodoo...

Good luck and safe and happy children for all.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raynbow*

**Sorry, DC, I apparently missed where you said you only call 911 for babies and toddlers, so you can just disregard the following paragraphs... it's only if called regardless of the age**










Thank you Raynbow.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

:LOL "Start the voodoo".

Sending love to all.

Be good neighbors, support each other.

We'll all be better off.

And even if Hillary did ruin the phrase....It still does "Take a village"

As for me, I want to contribute to creating a loving society, and part of that means keeping an eye on kids I who are not mine, and having compassion for other parents.

Calling the cops is just so Jerry Springer show.

PS if you do call the cops and the film crew shows up to nail another stressed Mother just trying to live her life , please be wearing more clothing than is usually seen on Springer's guests. ::shiver::


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nicole lisa*
I have looked everywhere on the child safety sites for Canada and on specific police departments' sites and can't find any law here about leaving children unattended in a car.

Not Canadian but...

*How many states have legislation about leaving kids alone in cars?*

Ten states have laws protecting children left unattended in cars. The states with this legislation are: California , Connecticut , Florida , Illinois , Louisiana , Maryland , Nebraska , Pennsylvania , Texas , and Washington .

*Do any other states have similar legislation?*

Kentucky and Missouri have laws that take effect if an injury or fatality occurs when a child is left unattended in a motor vehicle.

*Are there any states with pending legislation?*

Yes. In 2005, at least 6 states have pending legislation including: Hawaii , Louisiana , Minnesota , Nebraska , Nevada , and Virginia .

Kids In Cars has successfully lobbied to pass a law in its home state of Missouri . The law calls for a person to be prosecuted if they knowingly leave a child under the *age of 10* unattended in a vehicle. On May 12, 2000 , a bill passed the Missouri legislature that makes it a felony if a person is killed as a result of someone leaving a child in a car.

So unfortunately it is not ALL states with *specific* child left alone in cars laws. I am certain there are broader laws that would umbrella a death or injury in a case like this though, which would lend itself to prosecution of a parent or caregiver.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PoppyMama*
Will you require immediate adult supervison across the board between 8-12+, or just in a car? Not being snarky at all I would just like to know if it is this particular issue that bothers you.

To the others- I believe that we have all agreed that temp. is a deal breaker. Yes, I know how fast it can get hot in a car and I have stated that it is dangerous for ALL humans/animals regardless of age.

I arrive at 12 as my own comfort level with my own child alone in a car based on safety factors involved in leaving a child unsupervised in a car... as well as the fact that I would not walk away and leave my dd alone in a public place under that age... and the guidance of some states having laws considering it okay for children at that age to be alone or supervising younger children.
http://www.kidsincars.org/State%20Laws%20All_2005.pdf

My dd is 5 right now. She isn't glued to my hip every second of every day but definitely has adult supervision the majority of the time. It is less than when she was a baby or when she was 3. I forsee our immediate supervision across the board as decreasing gradually as she matures.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Thank you for the explanation.

I read the state laws (thanks for the link) and they are vague to say the least. I think there was only one state where it is out and out illegal for the child to be in the car w/out an adult. It looks like a lot of the cases where people are saying they are calling the police there is nothing really illegal going on. I am not saying that just because something isn't illegal it isn't wrong or that because something is illegal it is wrong.

My own criteria seems to be stricter than state law.

I read my state laws and I am good. In fact I wouldn't leave my child unattended/out of vision for the full amount of time allowed. Except when parked at my house- they play in there sometimes- but I park behind my house and my car cannot be taken out of park without the key.

OT- All this talk had me thinking and my dd (8) has been asking to be allowed to stay at home alone so... We looked up the TX law on the internet together yesterday and had a little talk about safety issues and I let her stay at home while I picked up ds at school. I felt a little wobbly but it was all fine and I was only gone 9 minutes...letting go of the control is hard sometimes.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

I know most of you wouldn't think of leaving a toddler or infant alone in your cars. This story could be anyone of us. Instead of the poor little boy that was hit and killed, it could be one of us with our babes slung just walking by. Yes, paranoia can get the better of us. We all have to take calculated risks depending on the moment. But read this story. It will break any parent's heart.









http://www.kidsincars.org/ourstory.html


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

dallaschildren- that story is heartbreaking and the mother of the children in the van was ABSOLUTELY criminally negligent in my book.

I will admit that when my dd was an infant I would sometimes leave her in the car when I paid for gas. I don't know that I would do that now but at the time I lived in a TINY town in central KS and everyone else did it too. However, even though it was legal there, I never left her in the car when she was a toddler because even if she was in a car seat it was conceivable that she could get out. I also don't think children (of any age) should EVER be left in cars that are running or have the keys or are parked on a slope or can be taken out of park without the key.

I think parents really need to think more deeply into their parenting decisions. And I agree that we need to look out for each other.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

And what's really horrible Poppymama, is that the parents were RIGHT BEHIND the van when it happened. They weren't inside of a store or the post office, KWIM? There's no way in hell anyone could catch up to the van and stop it once it rolled.
Anyhow, this thread was informative albeit a bit testy sometimes.







I know I will continue to watch out for all of our kids.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PoppyMama*
I think parents really need to think more deeply into their parenting decisions. And I agree that we need to look out for each other.


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## DreamsInDigital (Sep 18, 2003)

Okay, here is my delimma:
In the mornings when I work, I am leaving the house at 5am to take my sleeping children to daycare. I am 13 weeks pregnant but even if I was not, I cannot carry a sleeping 6 year old and a sleeping 20 month old out of the house, lock the front door, unlock the car doors and get them in their car seats. It's a simple limitation of the fact that I don't actually have 6 hands. So one of my children inevitably gets left in the car for at least a few minutes while I run back in, get the second one out of bed and out the door wrapped in a blanket. I am single mother. I have no one at home to watch my children, no other option for getting them to daycare. How am I to not leave my children alone in the car every single day? And believe me, I worry about this constantly. I worry about a car hitting my parked car while I'm inside getting the other child. I worry about the brake disengaging and my car rolling down the hill. I worry about a drug addict or car thief stealing my car with one of my children inside. But this is what I have to deal with.
I have the same problem when I come home with groceries. My children always fall asleep on the drive home from the store. I can either take them inside and put them to bed or unload the groceries first. Either way, they're unattended in a way that makes me really uncomfortable. But I do let my 6 year old go to his friends' houses to play. I've met the parents and often drop by unexpectedly to say hi or bring him his coat so I feel pretty good about it. One of the kids' moms is a daycare provider and has been in business for 9 years. Leaving them in the car, though, it really bothers me that I can't avoid it sometimes.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

dallaschildren said:


> And what's really horrible Poppymama, is that the parents were RIGHT BEHIND the van when it happened. They weren't inside of a store or the post office, KWIM? There's no way in hell anyone could catch up to the van and stop it once it rolled.
> Anyhow, this thread was informative albeit a bit testy sometimes.
> 
> 
> ...


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

DreamsInDigital....







Single parenting is hard as hell. God bless you.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

:


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DreamsInDigital*
I have the same problem when I come home with groceries. My children always fall asleep on the drive home from the store. I can either take them inside and put them to bed or unload the groceries first. Either way, they're unattended in a way that makes me really uncomfortable.

On this one, I think the car is the safest place for a sleeping child strapped into a car seat they can't unfasten while you unload groceries. I live on a busy street, right on the corner, and I would rather have them in a locked, parallel-parked car, with the handbrake on and passers-by on the street, whilst I haul a car-full of shopping inside, than have them either a) helping me or b) in the house, unsupervised, with the possibility of them opening the door and running out onto said road (This HAS happened, before now). Obviously, though, if your six-year-old is like mine, he's probably VERY good at unfastening his seatbelt himself. And as far as your morning childcare run goes, I take my hat off to you. I couldn't hold it together like that. (Literally. I tried- and failed.)


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Dreamsindigital- I just wanted to tell you that I'm a single parent and have done the weird works hours and sleeping kids thing and it is hard. It is easy for other people to say or think they should wake up and walk and it is easy to second guess yourself. You are thinking deeply into the possibilities of each situation and doing the best with what you have. I wish you the best and wanted to tell you that since sometimes us single moms don't get enough REAL respect.


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