# Could you be friends with someone who spanks her children???



## leelee2 (May 18, 2006)

I'm having a hard time with this one. I don't think I can be and I don't know if I'm being reasonable?
She spanks her children for religious reasons too. It seems cult like to me. They believe in the "Shepherding A Child's Heart" book and it really made me sick to my stomach to read.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this topic.


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## daniedb (Aug 8, 2004)

Well, it depends on the situation and the friend. I have a few friends who do spank (only one who doesn't, in S. Tx you're hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't spank). While I, of course, disagree with their choice, and have never witnessed it myself, they rarely do it, and only in times of extreme behaviors and they don't do it in moments of anger, from what they say. They certainly are not part of the Pearl/Ezzo type cult teachings, and they really see it as a last resort when they can't think of anything else to do.

I love these women, and I feel comfortable remaining close to them for a few reasons. First, you can tell when you talk to them that they do not like spanking their kiddos, there is already guilt there about it. Second, I hope and expect that by remaining friends and close to them, I will be able to model alternatives and perhaps change the course of their discipline. Also, the two moms I'm thinking of are challenged with highly spirited, very strong-willed little girls, and you know what? I haven't walked in their shoes or lived a day in their lives, so if they feel like they "have" to resort to spanking their kids, I can't judge them for that. All I can do is just continue to model my discipline techniques and voice my opinion, which we do, and hope that they are able to find alternatives through my influence and their growth.

As for the Ezzo/Pearl/etc., type people...I don't know. I used to go to church where Babywise was a huge part of the childrearing culture there, and I don't think that I could be close to moms who followed those teachings. I think I could stay casual acquaintances with them, but I just don't think that they would be viable candidates for close friends. Again, I would probably stay in touch with them, keeping it on a casual basis, hoping that watching me guide my kids gently would influence their discipline techniques, but if they were a family that just spanked for everything and did so in front of me, I just don't think I could do it. I've not seen a kid spanked, and I think I would most likely pack up and leave and be cautious about spending time with them in the future. I don't want to see that, and I don't know how in the world I could explain it to Henry. He's already upset enough when we go to the store and hear moms and dads yelling and being ugly and rude to their kids. I can't imagine him seeing a parent hit their child.


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## grassisgreener1334 (Nov 24, 2006)

No, people who spank (no matter what the reason) are typically disturbed...not my idea of a worthwhile friendship.


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## sagira (Mar 8, 2003)

I would hardly have any friends if I didn't. I can admit it's off-putting if you first meet them. My husband's aunt (I know, family) uses that book too. Her child seems happy, well-adjusted, well-behaved. They also give her lots of affection and love. But I had to talk to her and tell her please don't discuss her disciplinary actions with me, as she was gloating how she spanker her for this and it worked, etc. You have to set boundaries.

My friend that I just got off the phone with said something that stayed with me: "I don't hit her anymore, I just spank her now". That makes me think that it's really hard for some parents just to get to spanking and not impulsive hitting. If that is a step forward, then so be it. She's trying to get to no spanking at all, but it's uber-difficult for her.

So, to make a long story short, yes, I think you can have friends and disagree with them about major subjects. It's the same as with religion or politics, but not with someone who's physically abusive or mentally cruel.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

In that situation, absolutely not.

I have a few friends who do spank when they are their wits end. They don't like it, they're ashamed when it happens, and they admit it's because they lost control. I just hope by modeling GD techniques and mentioning how wrong it is to hit children, I'll help them eliminate that technique from their repertoire.

People who cling to hitting children as a method of discipline ESPECIALLY for religious reasons gross me out.


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## lucky_mia (Mar 13, 2007)

Hmm, I don't know anyone who spanks so I have never thought about it. If it was an occassional swat on the butt for something major, I guess I am thinking major safety issue, but I would not be comfortable with someone who did it on a regualr basis for minor stuff. I guess if they were already a close friend I might try to help them find a better way. If they are doing it for religious reasons then it would be harder to change their opinion and they don't sound like the kind of person I would like to hang out with anyway.


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## cutekid (Aug 5, 2004)

I am friends with people who spank. Infact even some of the most "AP" parents I have met believe in spanking. I am always vocal about spanking and I don't mind telling them when they might worng in their logic for spanking. For example, my friend was telling me she didn't want her child to be afraid of her, and I ask her how spanking her was preventing that. She seriously, didn't know that it was. She spanks because it so called "works". But she also CIO's because it "works".

I deal with it like this, if you are at my HOUSE no one gets hit. If you want to spank your kids, do it at your house. We are at NO HITTING HOUSE!!!

My babysitter also spanks, well she threatens..she says she rarely follows through. I told her that i oculd give her some easy resources that would work....or they work for my DS and I. She's open to the idea.


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *daniedb* 
As for the Ezzo/Pearl/etc., type people...I don't know. I used to go to church where Babywise was a huge part of the childrearing culture there, and I don't think that I could be close to moms who followed those teachings. I think I could stay casual acquaintances with them, but I just don't think that they would be viable candidates for close friends. Again, I would probably stay in touch with them, keeping it on a casual basis, hoping that watching me guide my kids gently would influence their discipline techniques, but if they were a family that just spanked for everything and did so in front of me, I just don't think I could do it. I've not seen a kid spanked, and I think I would most likely pack up and leave and be cautious about spending time with them in the future. I don't want to see that, and I don't know how in the world I could explain it to Henry. He's already upset enough when we go to the store and hear moms and dads yelling and being ugly and rude to their kids. I can't imagine him seeing a parent hit their child.

















:

It would really depend on the whole of the person, and not one action (even a big one) for me to
cut a person from my life.

My group of friends are people I have been friends with for 10+ years. I had a child 7 years ago
and the oldest of my friends children is 3.5yo. Now my friend with the almost 4yo I know does
spank, I have never seen them spank their child, but we've talked about it. They also know that I
don't spank. Now I know many will not agree with their way, but I feel the need to clarify. Both
parents were raised in spanking families. It was used (and is currently) when the child does
something that puts them into danger. Asking a child not to touch a stove or iron, and the child
continuing to try to touch, or running into the road when they have been talked to about the danger.

Now I don't agree with spanking, but the majority of their parenting is very AP despite the fact
that nether parent knows the definition of AP. They cosleep, extended breastfeed, both parents
spend huge amounts of quality time with their children (they also have a baby that is almost one
year). I love spending time with these friends. They except me exactly how I come, and we
laugh, and do a lot of activities with our kids together.

Now if they were the type of family that makes threats of spanking constantly in front of my child
I would have to back away from the friendship. Also if these were friendships that I would miss I
might back off spend limited time with them until our children are older, and spanking wouldn't be
a discipline issue. (don't most people stop spanking at some point? like age 5/6?) I found with my
dd that lately these issues come up less likely because of her age group.

I think many times in families that spank there is a bigger issue that could make them the type of
people that I wouldn't have much in common with. A lifestyle that isn't conducive to my own. So in
that situation it wouldn't have as much to do with spanking, but more with the fact that we're not a
good friendship match.


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## Moonprysm (Jun 2, 2006)

I would not be around a person who openly spanks their children in front of me or my son. If it's something that's done at their home, then I may or may not be friends with them - it would just depend on what we have in common in other areas of our lives. But no, I would not allow violence if front of my or my son.


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## dillonandmarasmom (May 30, 2005)

My sister and her husband used spanking when their sons were preschoolers. Actually, dad would do it. It was never in anger (at least that I know). It was the "go up to your room, I'll be there in a minute..."







.
Now that the kids are 10 and 8, they are wonderful boys. I don't think they have used a spanking for years... The family is very Irish Catholic, and spanking is pretty common amongst their peers.
Anyway, I am absolutely friends with them. They are amazing people. Warm, loving, a very rounded family. I have had discussions with my sis about how I do things compared to her ways. She usually gets defensive or feels regretful, so we just agree to disagree. I admire so many things about them, I can't imagine not being friends.

I very much disagree that people who spank are disturbed. Yes, many are. But, many are not and in fact are very much like you and I. Pretty broad brush you were using there...


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## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dillonandmarasmom* 
I very much disagree that people who spank are disturbed. Yes, many are. But, many are not and in fact are very much like you and I. Pretty broad brush you were using there...

I have to agree with the above. If all people who spanked their children were disturbed I
would be afraid to leave my house. The majority of Americans believe that spanking is a
proper way to discipline their children. While I don't agree with them, I can't believe they
are "typically disturbed".

I believe the trend is changing, and I believe that with exposer to parents who don't spank,
there can be a lot to learn from each other.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

I think spanking=disturbed when it's done with a clear emphasis on control and submission a la Pearl or Dobson.

I'd like to think that most parents who spank do it out of desparation or just not knowing better.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

In certain circumstances, I could. If they were a one swat, with warning,reason, etc and not near me, then that's their business. Knowing that they used any objects to spank or if I felt that they were constantly punishing their child or urged me to do the same, then, No I couldn't be friends with them.
Lisa


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## MommaLyon (Apr 11, 2007)

I have a SIL to be that is part of the Ezzo cult and I simply cannot be around her most of the time. My heart breaks for her baby! Her husband believes Ezzo is fabulous...most likely because his parents used the book. There is no way I want to be around when they start to spank. Just posting this makes me think of it and gets me fired up!


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

I have friends that spank their children, but it's not often. They spank them a few times a year, not daily, weekly, or even monthly. They know I'm not comfortable with it and are respectful of my feelings by not doing it when I'm around or my children are around to witness it.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *leelee2* 
I'm having a hard time with this one. I don't think I can be and I don't know if I'm being reasonable?
She spanks her children for religious reasons too. It seems cult like to me. They believe in the "Shepherding A Child's Heart" book and it really made me sick to my stomach to read.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this topic.

No, I don't think I could be friends with someone like that. I could be friends with someone who spanked in a moment of lost control, but not someone who thought it was the best way to raise children. That would be a deal-breaker for me.

I think it's reasonable to want to be friends with people who are on the same wavelength about important things. There are other things about which I could disagree with a friend and they wouldn't bug me. This is one of the important ones.


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## McMandy (May 18, 2007)

I have a lot of friends who believe in spanking, but for the most part, they use it as a last resort- and its never a public thing.

I'm friends with all sorts of people who do things I don't necessarily agree with, but I realize they are loving people just trying to do their best.

I'd rather not hang out with people who strike at their children out of anger. We live in an area that either lets their children do whatever the heck they want, or goes overboard in the spanking area.

I would like to see more people handle their children with gentle discipline. I know it's not easy, and it takes a lot of SELF-discipline to stay calm and in control of your emotions, but the rewards are two-fold. My children are better and I'm better. They dont walk around with those emotions caused by spanking, and I dont walk around with the guilt, wishing I would have done something else instead.

In hanging out with people with different parenting styles, we may show them new ways to approach bad behaviour. I know I am pretty watchful of how my friends handle their children when they get a little too rowdy. So many times, their approach is better than mine, not just because its calmer, but because the result is a calmer child who is more likely to listen and behave, instead of strike back or wail.

Parenting is a learning process- we dont have it all together, and we often do what our parents did with us. Many people feel, "Well, I turned out okay, so my child will be okay if I do the same thing."


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## SweetPotato (Apr 29, 2006)

I would not want to be friends with a man who hits his wife-- so why would I want to be friends with a woman who hits her child? I get very frustrated sometimes-- with my husband, with old co-workers, with the guy who cuts me off with his car-- but I would never hit any of them. I simply cannot understand why children don't seem to count as people. Violence is not okay- not out in public, not behind closed doors, not against big people or small ones.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

After a long time of not talking to a friend who spanks (occasionally), I think I've decided that it's not a good enough reason to end a friendship. We're talking again.
I honestly put people who spank for "safety reasons" (even though I think that logic is







: ) or when they have no idea what else to do, in a totally different category than people who spank regularly as the main means of "discipline".
I really don't think I would stay friends with someone who was a follower of Ezzo, Pearls, Dobson, etc. That thought process is just way to creepy to me.


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## KatenMiasMom (Jul 19, 2006)

Wow. A LOT of judgment on this issue.

I think calling your friend "disturbed" is farther than I would go, but you need to determine if you want your own children to be around this woman. Is this something you want them exposed to?

You can definitely set limits on your own space- tell your friend "I would not allow anyone to hit a child in my house- my children or other children, period. This is a NO HITTING house".

I personally can't be friends with people who allow CIO. I think those that do are horrible, irresponsible people and I choose not to be friends with people who can't bother to read or treat babies with respect. So I can see why people greatly opposed to spanking that being around those that do is simply unthinkable.

However, I know many excellent parents and wonderful, happy, attached, non-violent children who were swatted occasionally- even though the parents felt terrible and worked at alternatives. I, myself, have been in that situation with my 3 1/2 year old. I'm not perfect, but I'm certainly not "disturbed". I'm just another Mama trying my very best to raise happy, healthy, attached children, and I believe strongly in gentle discipline, but I'm not going to make a blanket statement that those that spank are unworthy of friendship!

It sounds to me, however, that this situation is very different. There are varying degrees of "spanking"- it's NOT a black and white issue in my eyes.

I hope, no matter what, that you don't find yourself loosing a worthwhile friendship. If it's not worthwhile, well, then, no worries!


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Jess, it sounds like you are advocating some 'kinds' of hitting children in your post. Care to clarify? I judge anyone who hits their kids. Period.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

At this point in my life I prefer to be around people with whom I have similar views on life and parenting with.


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SweetPotato* 
I would not want to be friends with a man who hits his wife-- so why would I want to be friends with a woman who hits her child?









:


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

Things *might* be different if I had friends (who were spanking parents) from pre-baby. But since I don't I am pretty picky about who I decide to pursue a friendship with. I find that I'm just not interested in starting a friendship with anyone that makes me uncomfortable and spanking definitely would.

The only close pre-baby friends my DH and I have have all kinds of different ideas on parenting but since they don't have kids it's a non issue. Oh, they ask us about our parenting and give us shocked looks sometimes but it just isn't a big issue. When I think about it, it would be hard to stay close friends if they had kids and actually put into practice the ideas they have on raising them.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

No. ITA with the 'disturbed' assessment. It may be a somewhat socially accepted form of disturbance, but it doesn't make the descriptor any less accurate.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Yes. Spanking comes in a whole boatload of different forms-- some strike me as shockingly harsh, and others as more reasoned.

And I would have no friends at all if I didn't learn to deal with the idea of people spanking their kids. Everyone I know spanks to some degree.







: Some for religious reasons, others out of sheer frustration, others because that's how it's been done for generations in their families.

So maybe it's all mere convenient rationalization for me.







: I reckon I can live with that.


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## pumpkinyum (Mar 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *QuantumMama* 
No, people who spank (no matter what the reason) are typically disturbed...not my idea of a worthwhile friendship.























:

What a judgemental statement. I was spanked. Incredibly rude for you to think my mother was disturbed.

I am friends with all types of people! Spankers, non-spankers, christians, pagans, gays, straights. I would not be friends with people who are cruel, who lie, who beat their children, starve them, ignore them, yell at them constantly, and people who are so quick to judge.


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## stormborn (Dec 8, 2001)

I am friends with at least one Mama who spanks. AFAIK it is an infrequent thing. I don't like it, don't do it myself and would not allow it in front of me or my child....but at this point in my life I NEED mama friends and don't have many to choose from. So I don't have the luxury of booting anyone I don't agree with.







:

I would not associate with anyone who did ezzo, etc. That to me goes beyond spanking. IME it's a whole different mindset and way of viewing children.


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## KatenMiasMom (Jul 19, 2006)

[


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## KatenMiasMom (Jul 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
Jess, it sounds like you are advocating some 'kinds' of hitting children in your post. Care to clarify? I judge anyone who hits their kids. Period.

Sure. Happy to clarify.

It seems like it the situation posted, the parents are spanking for religious reasons. It seems ritual, which I find scary.

What I don't find scary is my best friend with two children who has practiced and lived AP since the day they were conceived going to her wits end, trying everything, and swatting (lightly) and then working to correct her mistake.

There are varying degrees. No, I don't "advocate" either method, but what I meant was- YES, there are DIFFERENCES.

My friend KNOWS that "spanking" is not a valid form of discipline, nor something she wishes to incorporate into her children's life. I've been there myself!!! There are MANY in my AP group that have reported incidences like this. Should we all just be BANNED from AP? Guess what? We'd have no members left.

YES, there is "better" than those that spank routinely, or harshly.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
"Yes. Spanking comes in a whole boatload of different forms-- some strike me as shockingly harsh, and others as more reasoned."

Ditto.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinyum*
"What a judgemental statement. I was spanked. Incredibly rude for you to think my mother was disturbed."









I echo that sentiment.

Guess it's a good thing I don't live in your world, because I am an imperfect person. I choose non-violence in my home. I choose gentle discipline. I also choose to accept that I'm NOT always going to do the right thing- there are varying degrees of "correct" even when it comes to GD! I don't spank, but that doesn't make me a perfect parent.

IMHO, there are some very, very scary people who have children, neglect them in horrifying ways, and manage to completely tarnish their innocent lives- and never, ever lay a hand on them.

But I guess THOSE people are okay to be friends with.







:

Spanking is horrible. I would never say that in ANY instance it's okay or justified. But I would also never, ever say that I wouldn't be friends with someone who spanked- it would depend on the circumstances- because yes, there is a need for rationalization when it comes to this issue. There are generations of behavior behind every action, and we're all working to overcome our old habits that we may not even know we have. Excluding women who fall into this category is a dangerous tactic and won't do a darn thing to further progress parenting so that spanking will become a thing of the past.
(IMHO, of course).


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## nylecoj (Apr 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinyum* 

I am friends with all types of people! Spankers, non-spankers, christians, pagans, gays, straights. I would not be friends with people who are cruel, who lie, who beat their children, starve them, ignore them, yell at them constantly, and people who are so quick to judge.

Yeah. I don't really have many (any) friends with kids, the exception being my sister. We were spanked and I'm sure she must spank her kids on occasion although I can't recollect seeing her do it.

Most of my family and friends are very mainstream and already think I'm kind of a nutcase for some of my views on kids, which admittedly changed after I had them. I don't think I would write someone off just because they parent differently than I do.

If they ever lay a hand on *my* kid though, that might be different.

I want my children to learn to appreciate the good qualities and differences in people instead of narrowing their focus to only those people who agree with our lifestyle/values.


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## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SweetPotato* 
I would not want to be friends with a man who hits his wife-- so why would I want to be friends with a woman who hits her child? I get very frustrated sometimes-- with my husband, with old co-workers, with the guy who cuts me off with his car-- but I would never hit any of them. I simply cannot understand why children don't seem to count as people. Violence is not okay- not out in public, not behind closed doors, not against big people or small ones.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
At this point in my life I prefer to be around people with whom I have similar views on life and parenting with.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
No. ITA with the 'disturbed' assessment. It may be a somewhat socially accepted form of disturbance, but it doesn't make the descriptor any less accurate.









: to all of those.

we live in a society that has internalized the concept that hitting our smallest, most defenseless people can be rationalized as an acceptable behavior.

and that makes me sick.

(spoken from someone that was hit as a child, and i feel like both my father-who did the actual hitting and my mother-who stood by and let it happen...are both disturbed on some level.)

so the answer to the original question for me is...NO.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

See, my mom spanked me and I don't think of her as being like, psychologically deficient. My dad, OTOH, never laid a hand on me, and he's, well.... let's just say I haven't had a real conversation with him in over a year.

I think of my mom as following in the footsteps of the generations of women ahead of her. Spanking was just "done" like diaper changing or nose-wiping. Unpleasant but sometimes, in her view, necessary.

Anyway, to me, this is a lot like the question "would you be friends with someone who circumcises?"

I can't just answer that with a simple yes or no... but if I had to, I'd choose, "yes." I wouldn't cut wide cultural swathes out of the population of people I could possibly be friends with (like, practically the entire states of Texas and Oklahoma







) -- finding someone you "click" with is so damn hard anyway sometimes that to me, that "click" is way bigger than one or two hot-button parenting issues.


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

This thread has me thinking of a parallel on a vegan forum (made up): could you be friends with a meat-eater?

I have a friend who spanks her children. Nearly all of my friends are nonvegan. I have one vegan friend who is so hardcore about her beliefs that she finds it really hard to be friends with nonvegans as she can't respect people who (in her view) are so stupid and cruel as to contribute to "factory farms." She is a happy and wonderful and busy woman... but she doesn't have a lot of friends! Her son, also, doesn't have a lot of friends (except for my son)... though I'm sure he will once he goes to school.

I can dislike, even loathe, things that people do and support while still caring for the person who does them. The old Gandhi... hate the sin, love the sinner type of deal. I think that being surrounded by successful non-spanking families is a wonderful way for spanking families to see that there are other, better, ways of relating to children than hitting them. I also find that people who use CIO or spanking or whatnot are often indistinguishable from those who do not in terms of gentleness and whatnot when it comes to getting together for playdates and this and that. These people often do have a lot to offer to me and Simon (and vice versa, I hope) and I see no reason to write them off. They are wonderful people who do something I feel is unfortunate -- very, very unfortunate... Of course there are plenty of exceptions... of course I wouldn't want to spend time with someone if I would have to watch her be cruel or disrespectful to her children when we were trying to have a nice time together!!! Some GD parents have rotten tempers and are a lot less pleasant (and a lot less GD!) to be around than loving, (mostly) patient mainstream parents (even if I think/know that they are misguided in some ways)...

I like to think that my spanking and CIO-type friends will come around... me writing them off wouldn't help that process and the things I dislike about how they interact with their children really haven't been much of an issue when I've been visiting with them. I also don't really try to push my beliefs on them...

I find it helpful and interesting to watch less GD instances of interactions... so I don't think it is bad if they come up when I am with a nonGD friend (or a GD one, for that matter). The friend and I often talk about things afterwards (or when the incident is happening) and try to work out how it might have been resolved differently. One friend of mine is fairly mainstream... it is good for me to see that the use of punishments and rewards does NOT make parenting any easier... things actually seem more difficult for her and I can see some of the negatives that go along with top-down parenting... that said... I can also get good ideas from her that I am not likely to get by associating only with like-minded parents... It helps me to see alternative ways of interacting with children (even if they are mainstream, which is "alternative" in my case). It helps me to keep things in perspective and to avoid demonizing mainstream parents... there are a lot of really amazing ones out there and others that may do some things I think are totally crappy... but that are excellent role models when it comes to doing other things with their children that are extremely important.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

No.

I would not be able to be friends with a family that uses spanking as a disciplinetool. I live in Norway, and here spanking is very, very rare. And illegal. I would be horrified if I saw a friend spank her/his child. I will not let my son witness anything like that, and would not be able to continue a friendship with the person.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinyum* 

I am friends with all types of people! Spankers, non-spankers, christians, pagans, gays, straights. I would not be friends with people who are cruel, who lie, who beat their children, starve them, ignore them, yell at them constantly, and people who are so quick to judge.


But isn`t spanking cruel? I think so. (And no, I am not talking about the stressed out parent who spanks a few times because she is overwhelmed.) I mean the parents who use spanking as a disciplinetool. To systematically use violence and hitting as a way of raising your children, is cruel to me. No doubt.


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

Tamara... you weren't speaking to me... but I feel like my veganism is a good example to use here. I think that "factory farms" are atrocious. I am disturbed by them to the core. I don't at all understand why anyone would support them... I'm outraged by the abuses that animals are suffering in them... yet I'm friends with nonvegans...

I think factory farms are cruel... I think hitting children and calling it spanking and discipline is cruel... but I'm not going to end a 20 year friendship over that. I'm not going to end a new friendship I have with a friend who told me about using CIO (and says it worked well for her...) because I find CIO ABHORRENT. I also think that losing it and hitting one's child is cruel. Should my friends all be able to keep their composure... at least as well as I am able to -- not that I'm a saint... but where should I set the bar to entitle someone to qualify to be my friend?

Maybe it is helpful for me that I am really extreme in my opinions... if I expected my friends to be as extreme as I am and avoid any- and everything that I consider cruel or oppressive... wow... would I be a lonely person!!! I would even avoid myself!!! I'm a SHIT too!!! There is so much I do to contribute to oppression in the world... so much more I could be doing to help people in need... I'm even LAZY about learning more about child slavery and so on...

When looking for new friends... I would rather find vegans who are into consensual living and ethically aware and active in relation to all the crap in the world... but they are in short supply... (and I have found that certain negative traits, like judgmentalism and making really negative assumptions about other people and spending all of one's time talking about the crap in the world... are more common in people who have ethics as a driving force in their lives... which is maybe understandable... but it can be really unpleasant to be around... so I would want my saint friend to also be totally into nonviolent communication and humane education... and yada yada). If the more ethically aware people of the world started a commune and excluded everyone who is not like them... they will certainly stay a minority, and probably increase hostility against them and their ideals.

All that said, I am SERIOUSLY tempted to move to Norway (or somewhere else that might be a big improvement)!!! I don't like our culture in so many ways. I want something so much better!!!! I'm angry that Simon's hairdresser and his dentist failed to treat him with the respect he deserves. I'm angry it is so hard to find like-minded people... It is stressful and annoying...


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

oops. double post.


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## rootzdawta (May 22, 2005)

Good thread . . .

There are so many things that I could break off friendships for that have to do with my lifestyle. I think feeding your child McDonald's and other crap (chips, hot dogs, Eggo waffles, Trix, etc) is wrong and cruel. Yet, I have a lot of friends and family who think this is perfectly okay. And it's more tricky because in keeping them as friends (and I don't really have a choice with family) I have to work extra hard to keep that stuff away from my son. In the same way, the great majority of my friends and family absolutely believe in spanking. I make it clear that I don't believe in hitting my child and that no one should ever lay a finger on my ds. But really and truly, if I were to cut off my friends and family who spank, who feed their children crap, who circumcise (!), who vaccinate, who are deeply religious . . . I would honestly have at maximum maybe one friend who lives very far away. And the community that I live in . . . let's say that I am seriously, seriously the odd woman out. I've seen someone babywearing in this community a total of one time and I've never seen anyone breastfeeding much less breastfeeding a 21 m.o. So, I guess, if I want to be social and have any friends (and family) at all, I have to put up with certain things even if I don't like it.


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

This thread is keeping me up! Arg!

One thing I do that helps me to be friends with non-saints (including myself) is to use compartmentalization to my advantage. This isn't something I planned... it just worked out that way, probably as a coping mechanism. What I mean by "compartmentalization" is the same thing people do who kinda know (or even have a really good idea) about the horrors of "factory farms" but they choose not to think about it, because thinking about it is too painful and too unflattering. They put it into a compartment of their brain that is shut off and just leave it there... Maybe they'll visit it later when they are ready to, maybe not.

When I hear about a friend doing something I have issues with, it kinda goes in one ear and out the other in the same sort of way. I don't try to change the friend... I don't focus on it... I don't even think about it (unless it is in my face...). If anything I try to minimize what she or he is doing and see it in a positive light by putting it into context and thinking more about what the friend does that I admire. But of course there are limits... the further I am removed from the actions I dislike the easier it is to use this technique...

I'm tired to maybe not being very clear here...


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I think it depends on how often she hits her children, under what circumstances, etc.

I do have several friends who hit their kids occasionally, as a last resort, and always in private. They would never consider hitting a child in front of the child's friends and embarrassing him or her. 99% of the time they use discipline techniques that are compatible with GD.

Somebody who beleived that children need to be hit for every minor infraction, and frequently hit her children in public, would be a completely different situation. I can't imagine we'd have very much in common, and I wouldn't want my children exposed to that kind of random violence.


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

This thread is keeping me up! Arg!

One thing I do that helps me to be friends with non-saints (including myself) is to use compartmentalization to my advantage. This isn't something I planned... it just worked out that way, probably as a coping mechanism. What I mean by "compartmentalization" is the same thing people do who kinda know (or even have a really good idea) about the horrors of "factory farms" but they choose not to think about it, because thinking about it is too painful and too unflattering. They put it into a compartment of their brain that is shut off and just leave it there... Maybe they'll visit it later when they are ready to, maybe not.

When I hear about a friend doing something I have issues with, it kinda goes in one ear and out the other in the same sort of way. I don't try to change the friend (laziness is a factor here... and being bored about hashing out the same arguments again and again and again)... I don't focus on it... I typically don't even think about it (unless it is in my face...).

While I don't hide my own position and don't condone things I think are cruel... I do find myself trying to see what my friend is doing in context and try to consider how that context might help to explain what is going on and maybe make it seem less horrible... I try to think more about what the friend does that I admire. But of course there are limits... the further I am removed from the actions I dislike the easier it is to use this technique... It's one thing to know that a friend of mine sometimes hits her children... it is another if I had to actually witness it. It is sad and repulsive enough to me now when this fact about her creeps into my consciousness... When her most recent child was born I wanted to send her a message along the lines of "My Gawd... look at him... he is so precious and so amazing!!! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE agree with me that you will NEVER EVER hit him..." I don't see her very often. Maybe if I see her this summer (we live far away from each other now) I'll do more than usual to try to convince her to stop resorting to violence... I don't even know how often she does it or anything like that... It is just too ugly a thing to consider... She knows how I feel but I could at least do more to gently share the arguments with her and then leave it at that unless she is wanting to consider the conversation...

I'm tired so maybe not being very clear here...


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## leelee2 (May 18, 2006)

Wow, I love all the ideas and opinions. Thank you so much for all the input. I think I knew that I couldn't continue the friendship, but this has helped me be okay with that.
For one, the way that she does it is super troubling. Not that there is a good way. They are really into "obeying" and they just view children differently. So, it is the spanking AND the way she interacts with them. She has also swatted the poor 14 month old in front of me and my children for typical 14 month old behavior. I think he might have been squirmy and not wanting to get in the stroller. Either way, horrible. We started a huge debate about spanking and I gave her a lot of resources on why not to do it and alternatives. She basically didn't read them because they weren't "Christian" based. I did end up finding a great Christian resource for her, but I doubt she read it. Anyway, it's sad, becuase we are new to this area and don't know many people. With that said, I'm not desperate enough to expose my children to that negativity. The last few times I hung out with her it was very stressful and she kept bringing it up like saying some woman's children were very behaved because they had a strict mom. I argued that you can be "strict" and gentle at the same time. So, part of it is probably HER personality and she makes it impossible for it not to come into our "playdates". So, the question now is, do I tell her the reason or just let it go?


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## DoulaClara (Jan 3, 2006)

Oh leelee, that's hard! I would just let the relationship end without a lot of discussion, to be honest. You've already made your point to her about her hitting and have given her lots of resources. I'm sure it's struck her how different you are in that regard already.

For what it's worth, I always try to at least give it a shot. I've had friends change slightly over time, and become a lot less punitive and a lot more GD after discussions and alternative ideas. I don't think I know anyone who is totally punitive and harsh outside of work, though (and those people are far from "friends").

Clara


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Yes. I am. However, she knows my views on spanking, I know hers, and we do not discuss it. I know she is using controlled, non-angry spanking on an older child and that it is rare; if she was whacking her one-year-old on a daily basis, that would be different.

Also, she would know better than to do it or mention it in my home or in front of my child.


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## NaomiMcC (Mar 22, 2007)

Yes.

And I know that seems to go against the grain here...but I'm just being honest. As long as it's not full out beating -- that I couldn't do. But a swat on the butt every now and then...I have no problems with that.

Of course I posted a similar agreement on another thread and it was deleted. I'm assuming it will happen with this one again, EVEN THOUGH the OP was asking and I'm just being honest.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dal* 
Tamara... you weren't speaking to me... but I feel like my veganism is a good example to use here. I think that "factory farms" are atrocious. I am disturbed by them to the core. I don't at all understand why anyone would support them... I'm outraged by the abuses that animals are suffering in them... yet I'm friends with nonvegans...

I think factory farms are cruel... I think hitting children and calling it spanking and discipline is cruel... but I'm not going to end a 20 year friendship over that. I'm not going to end a new friendship I have with a friend who told me about using CIO (and says it worked well for her...) because I find CIO ABHORRENT. I also think that losing it and hitting one's child is cruel. Should my friends all be able to keep their composure... at least as well as I am able to -- not that I'm a saint... but where should I set the bar to entitle someone to qualify to be my friend?

Maybe it is helpful for me that I am really extreme in my opinions... if I expected my friends to be as extreme as I am and avoid any- and everything that I consider cruel or oppressive... wow... would I be a lonely person!!! I would even avoid myself!!! I'm a SHIT too!!! There is so much I do to contribute to oppression in the world... so much more I could be doing to help people in need... I'm even LAZY about learning more about child slavery and so on...

When looking for new friends... I would rather find vegans who are into consensual living and ethically aware and active in relation to all the crap in the world... but they are in short supply... (and I have found that certain negative traits, like judgmentalism and making really negative assumptions about other people and spending all of one's time talking about the crap in the world... are more common in people who have ethics as a driving force in their lives... which is maybe understandable... but it can be really unpleasant to be around... so I would want my saint friend to also be totally into nonviolent communication and humane education... and yada yada). If the more ethically aware people of the world started a commune and excluded everyone who is not like them... they will certainly stay a minority, and probably increase hostility against them and their ideals.

All that said, I am SERIOUSLY tempted to move to Norway (or somewhere else that might be a big improvement)!!! I don't like our culture in so many ways. I want something so much better!!!! I'm angry that Simon's hairdresser and his dentist failed to treat him with the respect he deserves. I'm angry it is so hard to find like-minded people... It is stressful and annoying...


I totally get what you are saying. I really do..

But, and this is kinda hard for me to explain, here in Norway, spanking is "not done." So for me to wrap my head around being friends with someone who actually thinks it`s ok to SPANK a child, that`s pretty difficult. Spanking is considered to be wrong, by a very, very big part of Norways population.

Aaarggh, I don`t think I am explaining this right.







:


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

leelee2... ug... what you are saying about that woman... I wouldn't want to continue my friendship with her either! It sounds like in addition to loathing the spanking -- and (a dealbreaker for me) having to see it when you are together (and to a 14 month old!!!!) -- that you probably don't have much in common with her either... and no background to make it worthwhile... I distanced myself from a new friendship awhile ago because I just didn't like the tone my friend-to-be had with her son... or her parenting in general. That friendship was going to be based primarily on hanging out with our children... and we didn't seem to have much in common other than our children... no clicking... so what would the point be in that case...

Tamara... I think I see what you are saying. If the idea were so widespread here (someday soon I hope... I'm so repulsed that it is LEGAL for me to hit my son!!!)... then the fact that someone still disagreed with it would no doubt say a lot more about her or his personality and leanings (it is possible here to miss how outrageously disgusting it is to hit children... and to not even have really considered the arguments against it... especially when a lot of people are still spreading the word that is in an important part of raising a child according to their religion and the old "it worked for me and I'm not messed up" garbage).

Maybe I am too forgiving about certain things and should be more selective? That is a bit amusing as I do look for like-minded friends and would consider moving to Norway or anywhere else to find a culture that is a better match to my ideals... maybe I am thinking more of a friendship between me and the mother or father in which our children aren't really involved in each other's lives... and certainly a friendship in which the spanking didn't get in my face or my children's faces... even hearing about it is something that completely gets to me and I can't imagine tolerating that for long...


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dal* 

Tamara... I think I see what you are saying. If the idea were so widespread here (someday soon I hope... I'm so repulsed that it is LEGAL for me to hit my son!!!)... then the fact that someone still disagreed with it would no doubt say a lot more about her or his personality and leanings (it is possible here to miss how outrageously disgusting it is to hit children... and to not even have really considered the arguments against it... especially when a lot of people are still spreading the word that is in an important part of raising a child according to their religion and the old "it worked for me and I'm not messed up" garbage).



Yeah, that`s what I was trying to write..








It`s not that Norwegians are better people, it`s just that we have had this law for a while, and people nowadays takes it for granted that it is wrong to hit a child. (Not all, but the vast majority.) So in my mind, someone who spanks here KNOW that what they are doing is not only wrong, but also illegal.

Thanks for trying to understand my not-so-perfect-English..


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Have you shared the resource *"Grace Based Discipline"* at Gentle Christian Mothers? http://www.gentlechristianmothers.co...rystal/gbd.php It is a resource for parents who embrace Christian values and Biblical guidance for parenting.

Pat


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## Ilovelife (Jun 6, 2004)

To answer your title question, yes in certain circumstances. In reading your post, OP, the woman you are referring to doesn't sound like someone I would be friends with based on her beliefs. But never say never. There are interesting people in all walks of life.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

I have friends who spank. They are friends we had before we had children, and they have qualities that I admire and enjoy.

When making new friends, I tend to look for people who parent in a roughly similar way that I do, so spanking would turn me off before I developed the friendship. I guess my old friends are grandfathered in.







I don't have a policy against making friends with people who spank, but in general our families won't mix comfortably.


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## TexasSuz (Mar 4, 2002)

Yes, I do have friends that spank. I do not try to tell other people how to raise their children.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

If someone lost their temper and spanked on a rare occasion, I could deal with it even if I don't agree, but I coul;dn't deal withs omeone who thinks spanking is a.ok and does it regularly.


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## Genesis (Jan 8, 2007)

Haven't read every single post, but I can say that I would have a pretty hard time being friends with someone that hits their children. I don't have any experience with this though, as my close friends and aquaintances use GD.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sagira* 
I would hardly have any friends if I didn't.

Same for me. Everyone I know spanks and those that don't are not doing very well with gentle discipline, so they aren't much easier to be around.


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## purposefulmother (Feb 28, 2007)

I'm not into threats or spanking children. I don't spank but I have made threats in the past (if you don't X then Y will happen). Not proud of it, but it's happened. And being imperfect it may happen again.

Some of my friends spank. I don't like it, but I haven't ended my friendships because of it.


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

I don't believe in spanking at all.

However, I'm imaging a lifetime spent using spanking as a litmus test for friendship... and all I can see is a future snapshot of myself checking into the nursing home, and refusing to play pinochle with other residents until I grill them on how they disciplined their children lo those many years ago...

Please.

I'm friends with people I differ with on all sorts of issues, from abortion to capital punishment to politics to religion to crunchy vs. creamy peanut butter.


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## Montessorimom8 (Mar 6, 2006)

NO! I don't have any close friends that spank their kids. I would not want to be with someone who spanks their kids at all. In fact I won't let anyone spank their kids in our house.


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## Genesis (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Naless* 

I would not make this determination, to be friends or not to be friends, based on this one topic.

What does concern me is the number of posters who said that they can be friends with someone who spanks as a last resort or when they lose it. I could not be friends with someone like that. Their lack of self control and impulsivness would concern me on many levels. Especially if this friend "knows that spanking is wrong" and does it any way.

OK, well, this "one topic" is a huge thing to the majority of us that come on here, and it sounds like you are trying to minimize the severity of this parenting decision.

To me and to many others, hitting is hitting, no matter if you're angry or not when you do it. And it's wrong. Like other posters on this forum have stated, you don't hit your partner, friend, or co-worker to make a point, so you shouldn't hit your child either.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Naless* 
Their lack of self control and impulsivness would concern me on many levels. Especially if this friend "knows that spanking is wrong" and does it any way.

At risk of going off topic, I tend to agree. I don't see why these people should get a pass if we are passing out judgement. But yeah, if I was only friends with people I agreed with there wouldn't be anyone on the planet I could be friends with!


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## nova22 (Jun 26, 2004)

All the friends I've known since childhood are spankers/CIOers/circ-ers and we're still friends. I don't agree with their choices, but I *do* take opportunities to show them how you don't *have* to do those things to successfully raise children. When I get the chance to do so, I tell them why I believe what I do - why I believe spanking is counter-productive, why I think it's best for babies to be breastfed if it's possible, why I believe cosleeping is good for kids, etc. Because we've been friends for so long we can have conversations about differing opinions without attacking each other, and 99% of the time at least one of them will hear what I have to say and respond with, "Wow, I've never thought of those points...maybe we should do it that way, too."


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## Genesis (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nova22* 
All the friends I've known since childhood are spankers/CIOers/circ-ers and we're still friends. I don't agree with their choices, but I *do* take opportunities to show them how you don't *have* to do those things to successfully raise children. When I get the chance to do so, I tell them why I believe what I do - why I believe spanking is counter-productive, why I think it's best for babies to be breastfed if it's possible, why I believe cosleeping is good for kids, etc. Because we've been friends for so long we can have conversations about differing opinions without attacking each other, and 99% of the time at least one of them will hear what I have to say and respond with, "Wow, I've never thought of those points...maybe we should do it that way, too."

That's a good tactic. I just couldn't become friends with someone like that, but if an existing close friend had a child after we were already friends, I would do the same thing you do.


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## Adastra (May 30, 2007)

I hardly know anyone that does spank. It's amazing how regional it is!

I do have friends whose disciplinary habits make me not want to be around them. When I hear parents yell and threaten and fail to follow through instead of teaching and guiding, my blood pressure goes waaaay up.


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## Naless (Apr 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Natural Mommy*J* 
OK, well, this "one topic" is a huge thing to the majority of us that come on here, and it sounds like you are trying to minimize the severity of this parenting decision.

To me and to many others, hitting is hitting, no matter if you're angry or not when you do it. And it's wrong. Like other posters on this forum have stated, you don't hit your partner, friend, or co-worker to make a point, so you shouldn't hit your child either.

First, I am not trying to minimize the severity of this parenting decision (spanking) and at a lost at how you arrived at that conclusion. What did I say that gave you that impression?

Second, I understand that people believe that hitting is hitting and not acceptable at any time and at no time IMO did I say anything contrary. I actually touched on that a little about the parents who lose it and spank and parents who use it as a last resort.

Third, my answer was in response to the OP, Could you be friends with a someone who spanks her children. I stated that I would not use this one issue as a dealbreaker. Just as I would use circumcision as a determining factor and I believe that that is an ultimate form of child abuse and my son is not circ'd. I would not use vaccination as a determing factor and I am a selective/delayed vaccinating momma and believe some vac's to be very harmful and hurtful. I don't understand why a mom wouldn't breastfeed her child but would still be her friend while I nurse my new son as I did his 2 sisters.

My post was about what I would use to determine if I would be friends with another parent not about if their spanking was right or wrong so I feel your response was off topic. Why did you address only me when numerous other posters said not only that they would not use the friends spanking as a determining factor either and have friends and family that spank? Are they not also minimizing the severity of this parenting decision?


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

I have no problem being friends with someone who spanks, frankly its not my business and I honestly don't even know if any of my friends spank. In part I have a teenager and a toddler and at this stage in life my friendships are not based on parenting choices but on whether or not we like each other and get along.

I have so called mainstream buddies who probably wonder why I am nursing a 22 mo but they know its not their place to ask me about it.. though my best friend who is a single man did ask recently because he was not aware of extended BF'ing.

The thing is as your kids get older, this sort of stuff really becomes less relevant.

Shay


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## happyhippimama (Apr 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *QuantumMama* 
No, people who spank (no matter what the reason) are typically disturbed...not my idea of a worthwhile friendship.

WOW! How judgemental. I DO NOT spank. But I did many years ago for a brief time. And I would not consider myself disturbed at all. AND I was spaked as a child and I don't think my parents are disturbed. I had the BEST childhood ever.

I do not agree with spanking at all, however, I wouldn't say spankers are disturbed, maybe....confused or misguided.


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## PreggieUBA2C (Mar 20, 2007)

Thank you for raising this topic, OP. Dh and I have been struggling with this concept since we were married. By and large, we have found that once our friends saw that there were _two of us_ (







: ) that have similar very non-mainstream views and that we are actually going to 'go through with' living accordingly, they have mostly fallen away by themselves at various stages of their own lives. We're not 'preachers' of our views, but we and our typical friends are all cerebrally-inclined and the big issues come up often. Some left when they discovered after they vaccinated their first child, and asked us what it was like for us, that we don't vaccinate and feel strongly about why we don't. Some became fearful for the health of their dc being near ours... Others were confused about why we wouldn't circumsize and thought we were setting our dc up for illness and sexual dissatisfaction later in life







: . Nobody left because of the circ. issue, but it brought tension and the temperature in the room when we entered was generally reduced to cooler than comfortable. The issues are numerous, but you get the point.

Anyway, we are a christian family that does not believe that it is okay to hit children. Our former church organisation (we have since de-institutionalised) was quickly turning Ezzo as more babies were being born into the congregation. It didn't help that the aging population of the church seemed to remember that their children *never* made any noise in church or ever talked back or ever blah blah blah. Ever. I doubt the veracity of those claims, but nevertheless, they have sufficiently affected the younger generation of new parents such that baby-training regimes and spanking as the preferred method for discipline are the norm.

If I had to make a decision about keeping or letting go of a new friendship because of spanking, I have to be honest that I would prefer to let a distance develop than to deal anymore with the mentalities that perpetuate it as discipline. I am personally tired of that, but maybe when I've had more time away from it it won't seem so over-bearing (but still unacceptable).

Right now I have a friend who was GD all the way and then suddenly when she was 8 months pg with dc2, she started spanking!







: I haven't brought it up with her, but I will because she is a dear friend and I know that she will return to her sensibility on this; she was lacking in coping skills and in a lot of pain. Not an excuse at all, but because of her GD history and upbringing, once she is well, I feel that we can talk about it honestly. I won't end the friendship with _her_, but we do have friends that I don't mind letting go for similar reasons because I know their mentality about spanking (etc) and that my input will not change their view as has been shown in the past (they think we're nuts/harming our dc for our other beliefs about vax, hs, non-use of pharmaceuticals, etc...). We just don't even have enough in common to keep us together, I guess.


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## PreggieUBA2C (Mar 20, 2007)

I noticed that some of those who wrote about friends who spank mentioned that they only spank infrequently and without anger etc... Dh's father to this day will say that he spanked dh maybe 5 times and that it was never in anger. Dh's recollection is of frequent, harsh, very painful spankings that in some cases left him fearing for his life. There were many times when he couldn't sit down afterwards and even a time when he couldn't sit for three days. He was thrown against cornerbead so hard that he passed out, hit with belts and threatened constantly. His father apparently doesn't recall this (or my dh has been through self-imposed therapy and many years of reform for nothing







: ).

A woman we know says she was spanked several times per day until she was 13 years old, tied to her bed, put in a closet, and her father said to us (we went to his church organisation) that he only spanked one time because she had gone onto the railroad. EVERY person I have spoken with who says they spank (or spanked) their dc says they did so next to never, only a few times, only when there was danger, etc... It seems that most people actually have selective memory of doing this. Maybe it's a guilt-coping mechanism. I don't know, but I haven't encountered anyone who seems to be in agreement with his/her parents about how often they were spanked (although I know they exist, it seems that they must the minority of spankers). Anyone else find this?


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PreggieUBA2C* 
I noticed that some of those who wrote about friends who spank mentioned that they only spank infrequently and without anger etc... Dh's father to this day will say that he spanked dh maybe 5 times and that it was never in anger. Dh's recollection is of frequent, harsh, very painful spankings that in some cases left him fearing for his life. There were many times when he couldn't sit down afterwards and even a time when he couldn't sit for three days. He was thrown against cornerbead so hard that he passed out, hit with belts and threatened constantly. His father apparently doesn't recall this (or my dh has been through self-imposed therapy and many years of reform for nothing







: ).

























Your poor, poor Dh. What a wonderful man he must be, to be able to GD after such an upbringing..


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shayinme* 
I have no problem being friends with someone who spanks, frankly its not my business and I honestly don't even know if any of my friends spank. In part I have a teenager and a toddler and at this stage in life my friendships are not based on parenting choices but on whether or not we like each other and get along.

I do not get this. To me spanking is a physical assault, not a parenting choice. And I think child abuse is everyone's business. I think ppl turn a blind eye all too often because it is inconvenient or awkward to say something, and becoz of this children continue to be harmed.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

My mother spanked us. We're still good friends.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
My mother spanked us. We're still good friends.

So did mine. And we are not friends.

Pat


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

LOL, no kidding.

ETA - in agreement with choli not WuWei


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

My mother spanked me. It harmed me, damaged me in a deep, raw way. I hated her for a long time. Father too.

Now I know: That really was the best they could do. I can do better. It is my job to end the cycle of violence in my family, and I am doing just that.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PreggieUBA2C* 
I don't know, but I haven't encountered anyone who seems to be in agreement with his/her parents about how often they were spanked (although I know they exist, it seems that they must the minority of spankers). Anyone else find this?

Not in my experience. But then again I don't know any adults who were abused as children, at least not who talked to me about it.

I know plenty of people (myself and my brother included) who were "spanked" a handful of times during childhood, and I've never had a conversation with any parents who remember things any differently.


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## Moonprysm (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
My mother spanked me. It harmed me, damaged me in a deep, raw way. I hated her for a long time. Father too.

Now I know: That really was the best they could do. I can do better. It is my job to end the cycle of violence in my family, and I am doing just that.

My mother never spanked me, but my father did. I still have serious issues with it, and issues with my mother for allowing him to do so.


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## pumpkinyum (Mar 27, 2007)

My mother spanked me! We have a BEAUTIFUL relationship


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## Genesis (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I do not get this. To me spanking is a physical assault, not a parenting choice. And I think child abuse is everyone's business. I think ppl turn a blind eye all too often because it is inconvenient or awkward to say something, and becoz of this children continue to be harmed.









:


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## captivatedlife (Aug 16, 2006)

I think, that by virtue of living in the United States, especially in areas with high spankability, those with GD principals have a *responsibility* to be "of the world".

Think of it this way - How did you learn to (not ric), (??? vax's), get rid of plastic bags, ect? I bet you didn't learn from those who were doing as you were before. You learned from people (ahem







) from those more "enlightened". How can we expect spanking to be eradicated if we don't model it?

That being said, I feel that **I** need to be around people who are MORE GD than I. I was raised in a spanking home and we just decided that we choose to break the cycle. I know it will be hard, my family will not be on board I will need people to support me. People who have similar values.

So I will pursue friendships with more GD people than non GD people, if that makes sense.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

I agree. I don't think that GDers closing ranks and ostracising spankers really does anything except further a weird divide between philosophical "camps." If you live in a place where physical punishment is common, then a spanking friend will have PLENTY of people to commiserate with about what a judgmental extremist idiot you are.

I say, if GD is really all it's cracked up to be, then the truth will come out in our kids.

I always used to think I could never hang with a mama who circed or would circ... but you know what? I do, and my friends seeing my uncut son with no issues really seems to make them think before they blithely sign the consent form. I don't even have to say anything unless or until they ask.

Wouldn't surprise me to know that people say, "well, 80 and them didn't do it, and their kid seems ok...."


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## daniedb (Aug 8, 2004)

Since we're going OT...I was spanked a handful of times, I was a very amiable child, very easy to discipline. My sister was the exact opposite, and she received many more spankings than I. My mom now regrets that she ever spanked us, me especially, since she says that there was no need to do so. It's sad to hear her pain about those choices, and she's asked forgiveness so many times. The interesting thing is that apart from one time, the spankings I received were not painful, particularly, and while they weren't fun, they weren't really that bad. In fact, mom stopped spanking us when we both spontaneously cracked up once because she was trying so hard and it just didn't hurt because she's small.

Anyway, what I'm trying to add is the perspective that I totally disagree about people who spank being disturbed. My mother had limited resources, few supportive people in her life, and really did the most GD raising of my sister and I that I can think of when compared to any and all of my peers.

My husband was whacked a few times by his tiny mom with a wooden spoon when they got out of hand (when he and his brother were much older and would start fighting in the house), but he will laugh and roll his eyes about it today. What really caused deep, deep wounds in him wasn't any kind of physical punishment, it was the coldness of his parents and the lack of support and affirmation they withheld from him. I can guarantee you that he would have chosen to be spanked and had a warm relationship instead of not be spanked and have zero positive input from his parents.

There are worse things than spanking, and if I have a friend who is truly emotionally connected to her children and wants to be the best parent she can be, that she spanks her children on occasion when she doesn't know what else to do doesn't make her disturbed, abusive or evil in my eyes.

leelee - your friend sounds like there are many more problems with her parenting and her life than just the spanking. I don't think I'd be much interested in pursuing a friendship with her either.


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## TrippyLongstocking (Feb 27, 2007)

I wouldnt say i would be friends with them ... I would try as hard as possible not to judge them but...i would probaly judge tehm and then i would probably not be able to hang out with them anymore....


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Here is a poignant thread/poll "Were you spanked as a child". Only 8% of respondents were not. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...hlight=spanked

ETA: I am reminded of this quote.
*When we have children we either are woken to our past to help us heal, or we are oblivious to the pain and we inflict it on our children.~*Jacqueline Wood

Pat


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain optimism* 
No, I don't think I could be friends with someone like that. I could be friends with someone who spanked in a moment of lost control, but not someone who thought it was the best way to raise children. That would be a deal-breaker for me.

I think it's reasonable to want to be friends with people who are on the same wavelength about important things. There are other things about which I could disagree with a friend and they wouldn't bug me. This is one of the important ones.









:

Also, I'm sure this has been done umpteen million times - and maybe even in this thread - but I think that calculated, purposeful spanking is a fundamental separation from AP. IMO, the two are mutually exclusive.


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## Euromom (Jan 28, 2005)

I agree with captivatedlife.

I'm sorry this has been said (I don't have time to read this thread in it's entirity) but I have to reply.

Please befriend parents that spank! If I wasn't befriended by people who lived out GD in front of me I don't how I would have ever learned about it. I was raised in a loving home where spanking was believed to be the responsiblity of caring parents. I didn't know anything different. I think we have to consider culture in this discussion. And in order to bring cultural change people have to be made aware that there is a better way to parent. This paradigm change can't just come through rallies, workshops, or even books on a shelf. Gentle Discipline has to be acted out in front of people in their homes and playgrounds. That is how I learned and changed.
This being said, protecting your children from angry abussive people is of course the priorty. But there are genuinely loving parents who are doing what they think and there culture tells them is best. Please don't isolate them, instead tell them what you've learned and show them how it is practiced.


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

I love Euromom's post.









I was spanked only once that I remember. I remember it being a textbook spanking... my dad did everything he was "supposed" to do. I have NO idea what it was for... I remember rolling my eyes (in my head) at his little "this hurts me more than it hurts you" speech... seeing right through it, knowing that what he was doing was NOT necessary and NOT going to help me learn whatever it was he was trying to teach me. I remember losing respect for him. I remember feeling humiliated and that there was something disgusting and sexual feeling about the spanking (and I don't mean to imply that it was anything other than a textbook spanking... my dad has is absolutely not a pedophile so far as I'm aware!!!). I remember my friends and I would later play "mad mother" and fight over which child got to be spanked (the coveted role). I don't remember the spanking being painful... my main memories of it are of intense humiliation. I still feel humiliated thinking about it and can't imagine ever talking with my father about it. Our relationship is congenial but distant.


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## AnnesMoM (Jun 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
If someone lost their temper and spanked on a rare occasion, I could deal with it even if I don't agree, but I coul;dn't deal withs omeone who thinks spanking is a.ok and does it regularly.

This is faulty logic. One should NEVER spank when they lose their temper. I would have a much bigger problem with someone who spanked their kids out of anger every now and then, because that emotion can boil over into a real beating. Someone who spanks more regularly, under control, in a carefully measured manner, accompanied by instruction is FAR less bothersome than the one who does it out of a lack of self-control.


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## kkeris (Oct 15, 2005)

Yes, I have friends who are hitters (spanking, tapping, swatting, or watever they call it).

Because:
- These friends of mine are not perfect and I dont expect them to be.
- These are moms who otherwise loves their kids dearly and will do so much for them, they truly care from their hearts.
- They just didnt have enough tools in their toolbox
- They had never even heard of the term 'gentle discipline' until I shared my beliefs.
- If I had judged them harshly and solely based on on this weakness of theirs, I'd never had the chance to be heard about my beliefs
- People dont care how much you know until they know that you care.

I get alot of respect from my friends about my beliefs on discipline, and I believe that it has something to do with me respecting them as a person in return (I still do not think that hitting is acceptable EVER, but I can respect that its _their_ choice). Coincidentally (or not?), all my friends who are hitters dont really hit on a regular/consistent basis. So its not like they swear by hitting and do it religiously. I'm not sure I can stomach this enough to be friends with a person who does that.







And all my friends know that I am a GDer and how strongly I feel about respecting children. Can you believe that even the most mainstream friends I have (trust me, they are VERY mainstream







) hesitate to use words like 'naughty' around me.







And because they know how sensitive I am to children being hit, I have yet to witness any of them doing in in front of me (thank goodness, my heart is too weak for that).

When it comes to discussions regarding dicipline, I share my views as gently as possible _when asked_ and I do not comment harshly nor disrrespectfully about their beliefs when they share. We get along fine since we also have plenty of other stuff to talk about so not all our conversations are about discipline.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AnnesMoM* 
This is faulty logic. One should NEVER spank when they lose their temper. I would have a much bigger problem with someone who spanked their kids out of anger every now and then, because that emotion can boil over into a real beating. Someone who spanks more regularly, under control, in a carefully measured manner, accompanied by instruction is FAR less bothersome than the one who does it out of a lack of self-control.

'

I completely disagree. Boiling over and losing control is human and the knee-jerk reaction to hit is engrained in many people because of their own childhood experiences. That's not to say it's any excuse and I, as a person who expressed a similar sentiment to the one to which you responded, could never remain close with a person who used it as such. It is, however, completely understandable given the pressures that parents face and the crazy emotions that we can have because of our relationships with our children. I have a huge amount of compassion for people who lose control once and smack their children and then beat themselves up about it and swear they'll never do it again (as I did once... the most hideous thing ever and a huge lesson learned).

People who spank in a calculated way, IMO, have a much more serious character flaw. For starters, it's the sign of a person who believes that physical force is a legitimate means to control and correct, who views his/her child as his/her property, to be done with as he/she pleases. It's an indication of a basic lack of respect for children as individual human beings and a lack of respect for their bodies and boundaries. Furthermore, the ritualization of explaining the reason for the spanking, hitting the child, then expressing love sends so many horrible messages: "You deserve to be hit. You've done something wrong, so it is perfectly okay for me to hit you. I'm choosing to hit you because I love you." It's warped on so many levels and, quite honestly, people who operate that way really scare me.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kkeris* 
I get alot of respect from my friends about my beliefs on discipline, and I believe that it has something to do with me respecting them as a person in return (I still do not think that hitting is acceptable EVER, but I can respect that its _their_ choice).

I appreciate you sharing your opinion. I have to say, though, that I just don't get this. Would you also respect them as a person and feel it was their choice if the people they were hitting were their wives or husbands? Or elderly parents?


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## green betty (Jun 13, 2004)

I have an extremely attached 2.5 year old dc. We come as a set. So I tend to think more in terms of our family being in the relationship than as *me* having a friend. If the dynamic doesn't work for Charlie then... well, it doesn't work!

Dc finds harsh or loud voices very scary, so we don't hang around people who use them to speak to their kids. I think he would find spanking terrifying, so it's a non-starter. I would have concerns about him spending much time with kids who get spanked, as well. We already get plenty of playground encounters with kids who have learned intimidation and violence as problem-solving skills.

It also depends on what you mean by "friend". To me, friend friends rely on each other for connection and nourish each other emotionally. I doubt I would have a relationship like that with a systematic or frequent spanker, although I might with someone who gave occasional and regretted swats. It would really depend on the people and our dynamic.

I live in a small, conservative community and am very conscious of modelling gd for others ALL the time--we have tons of chatty acquaintances who I wouldn't consider friend friends, and lots of them CIO and spank. I'm very aware of people intently watching the things dc and I do and I'm glad for the opportunity. I just wish WE had some models on the other side of us! (As much as I love MDC and all y'all, I'm _so_ tired of getting support and community through the internet. A bunch of you please move here so dc can play with your kids.)

I think spanking only hurts and is never a good idea. I also think it does harm to judge people for engaging in practices that are taught, practiced, validated, and embedded in their culture. Context matters buckets.

What's more, I believe that judgment blocks the flow of learning all the way around--for the judger, the judgee, and all the kids who are watching. Parenting is a constant journey of self. Here's another damn hill.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AnnesMoM* 
This is faulty logic. One should NEVER spank when they lose their temper. I would have a much bigger problem with someone who spanked their kids out of anger every now and then, because that emotion can boil over into a real beating. Someone who spanks more regularly, under control, in a carefully measured manner, accompanied by instruction is FAR less bothersome than the one who does it out of a lack of self-control.

It isn't faulty logic. It is an opinion. What is less bothersome for you is more bothersome for me. For me, I believe people make mistakes. They can feel bad and try to do better. People who spank because they believe is the right thing have a completely different philosophy that does not mesh with mine. I also feel that people who lose their temper and spank on rare occasions can benefit from friendships and support.


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## sagira (Mar 8, 2003)

I agree that by showing our friends that there is another way and modeling, we can make a difference more than avoiding people. Many people just don't know any better or cling to the old religious ways so strongly and really believe that is the best for their child.

Personally I'm also creeped out by people who deliberately, almost mechanically, spank their children. I think there's something really odious lurking in that somewhere.. it makes my skin crawl. That's what my dh's relative was talking about when I had to stop her.

My mom, who spanked out of anger, is human and even as a child, I knew she just didn't have control over her emotions. And that's the way humans are. We lose control and have a tendency to hit. Being compassionate also means being compassionate with adults, not just children. We can't change other people, but we can model and hope they see something they like about our parenting.

I don't plan to hit, it's definitely absent in my toolbox, but I'm always afraid I will someday and sometimes have fantasies that I never act out. I learned that in Raising Children, Raising Ourselves (a very GD book BTW). That you can allow yourself the fantasy and get over it and do the right thing (treat your child respectfully and remember how much you love him).


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sagira* 
I agree that by showing our friends that there is another way and modeling, we can make a difference more than avoiding people. Many people just don't know any better or cling to the old religious ways so strongly and really believe that is the best for their child.

I tried to do this with a friend who spanked her baby. I was really hoping my gentle discipline would rub off on her. Instead, my DD started hitting everyone and everything after spending time with them. It was just too much for me--I fully value helping people find more gentle ways, but I also felt like it was unfair to expose my DD to violence.


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## sagira (Mar 8, 2003)

Ouch. I'm sorry to hear that







Definitely I wouldn't tolerate the parent spanking in front of me. If they do it, even in their own house, it would have to be out of our range because ds and I are NOT watching that.


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