# To Train Up a Child?



## Mamato3wild ponnie (Jan 6, 2007)

Has anyone read this book? A mama i met at a LLL meeting told me about this book...i've checked it out online....and im not sure this is for our family.
Any other mama's used this method for their children? I have 4 kids and my 4yo and 10mo...i've got to do something different with them. We are more or less a unachooling household......no routine at all....we eat when were hungry...fall asleep when we cant stay up anymore....nap time is when the kids fall asleep...no nap times...no dinner times...we just live everyday how ever we...the kids...want. It's working for us...however this here mama...needs some time to her self. Just an hour or so to relax....that's all.
I'd love to hear back from mama's.


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## St. Margaret (May 19, 2006)

I'm pretty sure that's by the Pearls or the Ezzos, I remember the title from discussions of those types of books. I haven't seen the book but I'm betting it's very harsh and not a gentle method, perhaps includes physical punishment for all ages... just my vague memories from previous discussions. I don't think it would fit in with our parenting philosophy at all!


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Bad news.

-Angela


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## mysticmomma (Feb 8, 2005)

it's the pearls. they advocate spanking 6 mos old that roll over during diaper changes.


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## Evergreen (Nov 6, 2002)

I think you should borrow it from her. I will warn you, it probably will make you cry, scream and boil over. If you are a MDC mom,unschooler, unstructured I am pretty sure it isn't for you. They do advocate abuse but don't take my word for it. You need to read it for yourself before you can tell your friend that you have no interest in implementing this method.

On another note if you feel you need a break (who doesn't) there are some changes you can make without compromising your values.

1.put the kids to bed (or atleast in their rooms for quiet time) at a certain time then take a hot bath.

2.get on some sort of routine. It doesn't have to be structured but breakfast, play, walk, lunch, nap, snack, play, dinner, bath, bed is pretty flexible. At nap time you do what you want to do- read a book, internet...

3. Find a babysitter you trust so you and dh can have time (if you are married/partnered- sorry for the assumption if you are not). If you dont want to leave the little one yet put him/her in a sling or stroller and go on a walk.

4. IF you aren't ready for a babysitter use your kids' dad. Go to the store alone, take a nap, whatever. You can't do everything.


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## Evergreen (Nov 6, 2002)

Oh wow! You have a 15 year old. He can definitely help out. You don't need any Pearl methods but you do need a break. Enlist the older kids to help with the younger ones so you can get some me-time.


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mysticmomma* 
it's the pearls. they advocate spanking 6 mos old that roll over during diaper changes.

I had to read that twice. SHOCKED.


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## SparklingGemini (Jan 3, 2008)

This book made me cry and feel utterly nauseous.

Here's an excerpt.

The Pearls advocate creating alluring environments that are forbidden in order to switch an innocent baby to help "teach" them that no means no. Its sooo sad.


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

OMG he's comparing a child to a dog?????? And OMG she pulls the hair of a biting nursing baby????? This is the single most shocking thing I've read in a long time.

This man needs put in jail.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SandraS* 
OMG he's comparing a child to a dog?????? And OMG she pulls the hair of a biting nursing baby????? This is the single most shocking thing I've read in a long time.

This man needs put in jail.

Sadly this is not even close to the most shocking/disturbing/disgusting thing the Pearl's recommend. Its a very scary view of children and how to "train" them. Its very, very authoritarian (Dad rules, Mom is helpmate, children are taught to obey instantly without fail). Children are basically evil and need to be beaten into submission (literally). Starting before age 1 children are to be beaten with PVC pipe or switch for every single infraction, including innocent things like banging on high chair or crawling off the blanket. Its just sick.


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

You know what irritates me too, about books and advice like this, is they always bring out the Bible.

I'm a Christian. I'm not a "bible-beating, go to church 6 days a week" Christian, but I know I'm saved and heading up when I die... and I also know that my God doesn't want me hurting my children. I hate that fanatics constantly want to say that a good Christian home would involve beating kids every day. That's so not true. Period. Gimme any quote you want, but people forget that the Bible was written by men, interpreted over and over and over again thru thousands of years, and can still be interpreted many different ways (just like I don't believe being homosexual is a sin - MY God wouldn't deny access to heaven to two men who were good people, were saved and loved Him, and never harmed a fly, but allow a mass murderer who "found Him" on his injection death bed right in, KWIM?).

Anyways, no, people who swear God makes them hit their kids need a pass right to the looney bin.


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## HappilyEvrAfter (Apr 1, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mysticmomma* 
it's the pearls. they advocate spanking 6 mos old that roll over during diaper changes.


::shudder:: I could not fathom having done that to my child.

How ridiculous.


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## sparklefairy (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamato3wild ponnie* 
Has anyone read this book? A mama i met at a LLL meeting told me about this book...i've checked it out online....and im not sure this is for our family.
Any other mama's used this method for their children? I have 4 kids and my 4yo and 10mo...i've got to do something different with them. We are more or less a unachooling household......no routine at all....we eat when were hungry...fall asleep when we cant stay up anymore....nap time is when the kids fall asleep...no nap times...no dinner times...we just live everyday how ever we...the kids...want. It's working for us...however this here mama...needs some time to her self. Just an hour or so to relax....that's all.
I'd love to hear back from mama's.

This book is absolutely not approved for use in LLL libraries and is not compatible with LLL philosophy.

As to finding time for yourself, I do think that it would be easier with some routine, even if it's just "every evening, mom has 7-8 pm to herself." My kids and I all resist routine ... and we do so much better when we have one. (Which we really do not at this time, sigh.)


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## inkslinger (May 29, 2009)

Run far, far away from this book. It is awful, awful advice.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

This book and its authors are bad, bad, bad, bad, bad. Oh, and did I mention that they're bad? And horrible?

Here's a gem from their website:

Quote:

If you or your children have been hit (other than the children being spanked) so as to leave discernable marks *two hours later*, and you genuinely fear that he will repeat his battering, you can take legal steps without divorcing your husband. In a moment when he is not angry, calmly inform him that the next time he physically assaults you or the kids, you are going to call the law and have him arrested. You must first resolve in your heart that you are willing to prosecute him and see him go to jail. I visit prisons every week. It is a great place to mull over the consequences of one's deeds. And I have never met a prisoner that turned down a visit from anyone. Think about it, lady; *it is a great time for writing love letters and sharing a three-minute romantic phone call once a week*. Guys who get out of prison run straight home to their ladies and treat them wonderfully-for a while anyway.
That's right. They tell wives to only call the police if their husband has beaten them repeatedly and it has left marks that are still there hours later. Then you're supposed to use the time he's in jail to romance him and win him back.


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## Phoenix~Mama (Dec 24, 2007)

OMG!!! I read the link and wanted to cry and vomit all at the same time!!!









I agree with Sandra... this man should be locked up!!! Oh Dear God!! Please please please don't let many people follow this book!!!

:cry


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Here's another lovely idea from the Pearls:

Quote:

But if your husband has sexually molested the children, you should approach him with it. If he is truly repentant (not just exposed) and is willing to seek counseling, *you may feel comfortable giving him an opportunity to prove himself*, as long as you know the children are safe. If there is any thought that they are not safe, or if he is not repentant and willing to seek help, then go to the law and have him arrested. Stick by him, but testify against him in court. Have him do about 10 to 20 years, and by the time he gets out, you will have raised the kids, and *you can be waiting for him with open arms of forgiveness and restitution*. Will this glorify God? Forever. You ask, "What if he doesn't repent even then?" Then you will be rewarded in heaven equal to the martyrs, and God will have something to rub in the Devil's face. God hates divorce-always, forever, regardless, without exception.
They say that if your husband molests his children that you should give him a chance to repent without calling the police if he's sorry. Yup. And if he isn't sorry or does it again, you should call the police and be waiting with open arms when he comes home again.

Ew. Ew. Ew. Ew. Ew. Ew. Ew. Ew. Ew. Ew. Ew. Ew. Ew. Ew. Ew. Ew. Ew. Ew. Ew. Ew. Ew.


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## jlobe (May 1, 2009)

We don't have a routine per se, but we do have a rhythm to our day. Things don't happen at precise times, but similar things do happen day after day. For example after lunch we rest. When the youngest falls asleep (depends on when) then the oldest listens to a story on CD and mom rests (reads, sleeps, whatever). Then when youngest wakes up we play (usually go outside). Nothing is written in stone, and if youngest doesn't sleep, we read stories for awhile. Anyway, that's what works in our family....


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## lness (Jul 14, 2009)

Wow, I'm scared - I thought this kind of thing went out of style a LONG time ago! Is "obedience" really the best we can hope for from our kids? I guess these people's kids will be in trouble the first time someone they look up to tells them to do something bad...something they wouldn't have done if they hadn't learned unquestioning obedience as the way to get through life.

I'm afraid as soon as I hit "Post" someone's going to hit me with a switch!


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## mysticmomma (Feb 8, 2005)

I've often told people I'm not teaching my children to obey. I'm teaching them to think and do the right thing.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lness* 
Wow, I'm scared - I thought this kind of thing went out of style a LONG time ago! Is "obedience" really the best we can hope for from our kids? I guess these people's kids will be in trouble the first time someone they look up to tells them to do something bad...something they wouldn't have done if they hadn't learned unquestioning obedience as the way to get through life.

I'm afraid as soon as I hit "Post" someone's going to hit me with a switch!

There are no switches here on Mothering


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## tanyam926 (May 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mysticmomma* 
I've often told people I'm not teaching my children to obey. I'm teaching them to think and do the right thing.


ITA! This is a very short and to the point way to get across what I believe is my main parenting goal. Can I steal this?


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## inkslinger (May 29, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PhoenixMommaToTwo* 
I was given this book by someone and it's HORRIBLE. They absolutely advocate not just spanking, but bare butt spanking with a switch, spoon or other object. Their advice for night waking was to simply switch them on the legs every time they get out of their bed without saying a word to them and lead them back to bed. I know people who follow this philosophy and needless to say, we don't see them anymore. They use paint sticks (the stirrer things) to spank their children and started doing it as young as 18 months. I also read her book on how to be a "good" wife. Yeah, it's just what you'd expect. Keep your mouth shut, be a good little wifey and let the man do whatever he wants (including visiting hookers) and just suck it up because ulitimately it's your fault. Ugh! These people need to be shot, seriously. I would suggest giving it back with maybe some ap like literature.

As for finding time for yourself, I struggle with it myself, but lately I've been leaving the kiddos with dh and I take the dog for a walk. It gives me a little time to unwind. We're like you, we unschool and we really don't have a schedule at all. We follow our kids cues. I hope you find something that works for you!

I was also given this book. My ILs are fundamentalists and they absolutely live by the Pearls' advice. I read it, and it made me sick. My BIL and SIL have a special 'spanky stick' that they use on our niece and nephew.


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## LuxPerpetua (Dec 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SandraS* 
You know what irritates me too, about books and advice like this, is they always bring out the Bible.

I'm a Christian. I'm not a "bible-beating, go to church 6 days a week" Christian, but I know I'm saved and heading up when I die... and I also know that my God doesn't want me hurting my children. I hate that fanatics constantly want to say that a good Christian home would involve beating kids every day. That's so not true. Period. Gimme any quote you want, but people forget that the Bible was written by men, interpreted over and over and over again thru thousands of years, and can still be interpreted many different ways (*just like I don't believe being homosexual is a sin - MY God wouldn't deny access to heaven to two men who were good people, were saved and loved Him, and never harmed a fly, but allow a mass murderer who "found Him" on his injection death bed right in, KWIM*?).

Anyways, no, people who swear God makes them hit their kids need a pass right to the looney bin.

I totally agree with you in regard to people cherry-picking Biblical quotes and using them without regard for the Bible as a message of mercy and forgiveness. I think this is abhorrent, especially when used to justify violence against children. However, as a conservative, Bible-believing Christian, I must take issue with the bolded part of your statement, since isn't that what grace is all about--getting something that we don't deserve? Hence, "For *all* have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." I would hope that God would be as open to the repentent murderer as He would to the person who led the church choir (if you remember from the stories of Moses and David, both were murderers!). Seeing as how Jesus (God incarnate) hung out with repentent adulterers, thieves, and murderers himself--I think that's as close an answer to how God feels toward these people as any. The key is _repentence_. Without realizing that we have turned away from God, we cannot be drawn closer to God. Just a thought.

And to the OP, this is a terrible book! Run, run, run!


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## mamaUK (Jul 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mysticmomma* 
I've often told people I'm not teaching my children to obey. I'm teaching them to think and do the right thing.


could you talk a bit more about this? I'm really interested , it's so strong in society that children must do as they told and if they do not obey they are naughty. I would like to explore other options other than making my children 'obey'. I often say to my children when I am very tired and exhausted 'you're just not doing as you are told/asked' and feel bad afterwards.


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## Laggie (Nov 2, 2005)

I'm shocked, and surprised this is even legal. In Canada, although spanking is permitted on kids age 2 to 12, it is illegal to use any sort of object (like a switch) on your kids.


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LuxPerpetua* 
However, as a conservative, Bible-believing Christian, I must take issue with the bolded part of your statement, since isn't that what grace is all about--getting something that we don't deserve? Hence, "For *all* have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." I would hope that God would be as open to the repentent murderer as He would to the person who led the church choir (if you remember from the stories of Moses and David, both were murderers!). Seeing as how Jesus (God incarnate) hung out with repentent adulterers, thieves, and murderers himself--I think that's as close an answer to how God feels toward these people as any. The key is _repentence_. Without realizing that we have turned away from God, we cannot be drawn closer to God. Just a thought.


Great post - to touch briefly (because I don't want to get away from the OP's intent), the reason I believe this was because of a theology professor I heard give a speech. He believed, interpreted, the Bible a little differently than some do. He thinks the "man laying with man" part that everyone quotes to prove that being homosexual is a sin, is actually referring to man laying with child - pedophiles. He gave about an hour long discussion that backed up what he said, and I really liked it. I always disliked thinking that a person who was a homosexual was such a bad person in the eyes of the Bible - and I prefer to think that this theology professor (a minister too - do they have to be ministers too, I wonder? Eh, I digress) was onto something....









Okay, carry on!


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Laggie* 
I'm shocked, and surprised this is even legal. In Canada, although spanking is permitted on kids age 2 to 12, it is illegal to use any sort of object (like a switch) on your kids.

I wish that were the case here - at least it's a start. I would like to see it ALL made illegal. I think right now the law states "if you don't leave a mark"? That's sick, IMO.


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## inkslinger (May 29, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Laggie* 
I'm shocked, and surprised this is even legal. In Canada, although spanking is permitted on kids age 2 to 12, it is illegal to use any sort of object (like a switch) on your kids.

I really wish it were illegal here as well.


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## LBMarie9 (Jan 3, 2008)

i couldn't even read all the excerpts--I am sick!! find another book if you're so inclined to have some kind of schedule.


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## jimblejamble (May 18, 2007)

The Pearls freak me out and make me sick. I hate that they use God and the Bible to back themselves up. Does God send down a bolt of lightening and strike us down every time we mess up? No, He gives us a chance to repent and try again.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaUK* 
could you talk a bit more about this? I'm really interested , it's so strong in society that children must do as they told and if they do not obey they are naughty. I would like to explore other options other than making my children 'obey'. I often say to my children when I am very tired and exhausted 'you're just not doing as you are told/asked' and feel bad afterwards.

I'm not the person you were responding to, but I have a similar view of things, so I'm going to throw in my two bits.

I do want my kids to do what they're told, because life is very frustrating when they won't. However, I don't see a refusal to "obey" as some kind of character flaw, and it certainly doesn't make them naughty. My desire to have them do what I tell them to is _my_ issue, not theirs. I've seen so many kids get into trouble because they do what they're told, when what they're told is a really bad idea. (An extreme case that comes to mind is a girl I know who did something a pedophile told her to, got "caught", and was punished for being a "filthy little girl"...by someone who constantly harped on the importance of "obeying".) Obedience isn't really a virtue, imo. (There are certainly times and places where it's necessary, but I don't think it's a great basis to live a whole life on.)

What I try to emphasize with my children is _cooperation_, not obedience. Instead of framing things as, "you're not obeying, because you're a naughty brat", I try to frame them as, "we can have more fun/get more done, if people cooperate". Picking up toys, for example, isn't about doing what they're told - it's about pitching in to make life easier for everyone. DH and I both point out that if we're spending all our time doing things for them and/or cleaning up after them, we don't have time to do other things, but that if they do their share, everyone has more time for fun. Getting dressed when I ask/tell them to isn't about doing what I tell them - it's about getting somewhere they want/need to be on time.

It's taking a while to sink in, but I'm much more comfortable with this approach. Sure - there are times I kind of wish they'd just snap to and do what I say...but that's about wanting my life to be easier, not about wanting what's best for them.


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## hippie_mommy (Jun 23, 2007)

I could list disturbing quotes all day. Here's a gem about making sure that your girls wear only long dresses, rather than shorts, like a "slut".

http://www.nogreaterjoy. org/nc/articles/general-view/archive/2006/june/21/sobering-issues-modesty/?tx_ttnews[backPid]=48

Quote:

My daughters won't dress like a strange woman either. Mine, at only 9 years old, knows that she should keep her body from a man's eyes, reserving it for her future husband. In the grocery store one day, when my daughter was wearing a skirt that flowed around her ankles, she heard another little girl (dressed in shorts) point to my daughter and comment to her own mother, "Look, Mom, she's beautiful!" *Why not dress beautifully rather than like a slut? You should get out of your ignorance before your dinner guest looks at you or your daughter then visits the bathroom. Well, that's probably already happened*.
Isn't that sick? Who would even think that your dinner guests would do that because your daughter is wearing shorts? He's one messed up dude.

ETA: He also claims to be sinless:
http://allthings2all.blogspot.com/20...er-joy_30.html


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

I'm reading this like it's coming from some medieval novel about prisoners and slaves and things like that... really, I can't believe this book a: gets published - that any reasonable human being reading it isn't sick to their stomach and b: has been published in the past 50 years.

It's like Dean Koontz wrote this crap in a make believe world.


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## ~Boudicca~ (Sep 7, 2005)

Run, far, far away from that book.


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## momma_unlimited (Aug 10, 2008)

This book was given to me as a new mother.

It made the first two years of DS1's life pretty awful, not because I followed it to a T, but because I had the seed planted in my mind that if my child doesn't obey, I'm a bad mother.

I guess, about obeying, I see it as a GIFT a person gives you, not a right you demand. Funny that the Pearl's emphasize the Bible says for wives to willingly "submit yourself to your husband", NOT "Husbands force your wife to submit to you". Yet, a few verses later, when it says "Children obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right", the Pearls interpret it as "Force your child to obey you."

?????

I understand why some people do not advocate "obedience" and turn to words like cooperation. I'm ok with the word obey as long as it's something my children have chosen to offer me, not something I'm trying to minipulate/coerce/bribe out of them.


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## Deer Hunter (Sep 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SandraS* 
You know what irritates me too, about books and advice like this, is they always bring out the Bible.

I'm a Christian. I'm not a "bible-beating, go to church 6 days a week" Christian, but I know I'm saved and heading up when I die... and I also know that my God doesn't want me hurting my children. I hate that fanatics constantly want to say that a good Christian home would involve beating kids every day. That's so not true. Period. Gimme any quote you want, but people forget that the Bible was written by men, interpreted over and over and over again thru thousands of years, and can still be interpreted many different ways (just like I don't believe being homosexual is a sin - MY God wouldn't deny access to heaven to two men who were good people, were saved and loved Him, and never harmed a fly, but allow a mass murderer who "found Him" on his injection death bed right in, KWIM?).

Anyways, no, people who swear God makes them hit their kids need a pass right to the looney bin.

And now you wonder why people cannot stand anything having to do with the Bible. this is because so many people, like the Pears and Ezzos, do many horrible things in the name of God.

These people--the Ezzos and the Pearls--really and truly twist Scripture. Here is an example of one of their teachings that is contrary to what the Bible teaches:

In the "Prepared Parenting Manual" written by Gary Ezzo as part of the Growing Families International curriculum, these are Gary Ezzo's exact words. He states, "Our heavenly Father's non-intervention to
His Son's cry at that moment was the right response. . . it is used to demonstrate that God does
not always respond to cry-cues immediately and without thought." (Page 142, Prepared Parenting Manual.) What he was talking about here is the crusifixion of Jesus and how God did not respond right away to his cries. This is his rationalization for ignoring a baby's cries.

But what he fails to realize is this:

1. Jesus Christ was a man, not a baby. Because he was grown, he possessed the coping mechanisms to deal with his situation, and a young baby would not have these skills mastered yet. Hence, it is very improper to compare a grown man to an infant, though, they both are human beings and should be treated as such. In the words of Dr. Seuss, "A person's a person no matter how small."

2. There are numerous Scriptures in the Bible that show the importance of comforting an infant, or even an older child, and these Scriptures show that God is always there and would not condone treating a small and helpless infant in such an indignifying manner. They state:

"As a mother comforts her child, so will I comfort you." Isaiah 66:13 NIV
"Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you!" Isaiah 49:15 KJV (this Scripture shows how a mother, through whatever means, whether it is a parenting book, an expert, or some other source, can in deed lack compassion on her helpless infant to the point where it becomes very easy to ignore his cries without a second thought. And we see this all the time.)
"The righteous cry out, and the LORD hears them; he delivers them from all their troubles. The LORD is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. A righteous man may have many troubles, but the LORD delivers him from them all." Psalm 34:17-19 NIV (This is so different than what both the Ezzos and the Pearls teach.)

These people really have it all wrong.

The belief system of the Ezzos and the Pearls is clearly fanatical and extreme to say the least.

That is my two cents worth.


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## boysmom2 (Jan 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SandraS* 
I wish that were the case here - at least it's a start. I would like to see it ALL made illegal. I think right now the law states "if you don't leave a mark"? That's sick, IMO.

One of my aunts used to brag about how great it was that she could hit her kids as hard as she wanted as long as she used a fly swatter - because it doesn't leave a mark.









I too sometimes wish my kiddos would just do what I asked NOW, but I much rather prefer to teach them cooperation and the ability to think for themselves. Aside from everything else that's wrong with these people and their ideas, the thought that blind obedience could lead kids into very dangerous situations is so frightening (child molesters, drugs/alcohol, etc.). But hey, if it means never having your kids ask for junk food at the grocery store, it must be worth it!









To the OP: I think you've gotten some good ideas for ways to find time for yourself. I've been getting up early to walk for 30 min before DH goes to work in the morning. I also go out for dinner with my 3 best friends once a month while DH watches the kids. Sometimes, knowing that I have a dinner coming up is all that gets me through the day. And, there are plenty of other resources that are not as evil as the Pearls. Run far away!


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## mlec (May 29, 2005)

Sick. Controlling other humans through brainwashing. If a parent wants a puppet, s/he should go buy one from the toy store.

Oh, and it's method run against the real brain development of a child. And it's abusive.


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## guestmama9972 (Jun 5, 2003)

I saw the name of this thread and screamed (in my head because the kids are sleeping!)

I think the OP should at least scan the book and become familiar with it, just so you can make an informed decision and discuss it with other moms in the future.

This book is so horrible. I would treat an animal this way, let alone a child.


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## teale (Feb 20, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mysticmomma* 
it's the pearls. they advocate spanking 6 mos old that roll over during diaper changes.
































WTF, and I know LLL is for everyone, but I can't imagine someone suggesting that book at an LLL meeting. Someone suggested the EASY routine at a meeting, and THAT sent my head spinning.

Yikes.


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## boysmom2 (Jan 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teale* 






























WTF, and I know LLL is for everyone, but I can't imagine someone suggesting that book at an LLL meeting. Someone suggested the EASY routine at a meeting, and THAT sent my head spinning.

Yikes.

What's the EASY routine? Yet another crazy book about how evil babies are?


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## momma_unlimited (Aug 10, 2008)

It stands for Eat, Activity, Sleep, "Your Time" (while baby sleeps).

It's kind of a schedule to go by for a new baby. I think they kind of focus on not having the baby eat right before sleep so they don't "need to eat" to fall asleep... because of course your baby will never develop healthy sleep patterns if you nurse to sleep! They will be poor sleepers for LIFE! Weird choice of forums to promote that, at an LLL meeting. Although I must say, when I was a new mom, it helped me a little because I knew absolutely nothing about babies or how much sleep they needed and I didn't even try to put my baby to sleep and the poor thing was sleep deprived. I ignored the acronym and nursed him to sleep, but it did help me remember that the poor thing couldn't stay awake as long as I could.


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## boysmom2 (Jan 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma_unlimited* 
It stands for Eat, Activity, Sleep, "Your Time" (while baby sleeps).

It's kind of a schedule to go by for a new baby. I think they kind of focus on not having the baby eat right before sleep so they don't "need to eat" to fall asleep... because of course your baby will never develop healthy sleep patterns if you nurse to sleep! They will be poor sleepers for LIFE! Weird choice of forums to promote that, at an LLL meeting. Although I must say, when I was a new mom, it helped me a little because I knew absolutely nothing about babies or how much sleep they needed and I didn't even try to put my baby to sleep and the poor thing was sleep deprived. I ignored the acronym and nursed him to sleep, but it did help me remember that the poor thing couldn't stay awake as long as I could.

Interesting. Thanks!


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## Mamato3wild ponnie (Jan 6, 2007)

Oh, im so glad that i posted this...coming from a mom who hides all Ezzo books when ever i see them....been known to hide them at the book store...library....consignment sales. Well let me explain how the conversation of the book came about: I live in MX, on a border town and started going to a LLL meeting on the US side....in major need of friendship with like minded mama's. This was the second meeting i've been too, and there was a mama there who is bf 3 of her children....this really caught my eye. As i am tandem nursing also. I wanted to chat about nursing my 4yo....wanted to talk to other mama's who have also. So after the meeting i went up to her and we started talking. I explained how i get frustrated nursing my 4yo sometimes...etc...and she asked how often does he nurse...and i said 5-7 times a day. Most days. And she says...well that's why your getting frustrated...because he nurses so often. Then she starts talking about this book....TTUC...and says how i should get into a routine...schedule....nap time at 1...bedtime at 8...etc. This schedule thing does sound nice..honestly...but we've never scheduled anything with any of our children. Except bedtime with my oldest 2 who do go to school. Everything else in our household is: it happens when it happens. She says she has this book that helps you get on a routine...teaches the children that when mom says no she mean no...the kids dont ask..dont bother the mom. She says that she just ordered another book and is giving one to another mom...at the meeting..she points to this other mom and the mom smiles....this other mom has a small baby 2 months... maybe and a toddler. The mom telling me about this book...says...we should get together...call me next time you cross over in the US(which is like 2 times a week for me) and i could meet up with her and get the book...let the kids play etc.
We exchange numbers....
Yall now i'm thinking i need to confide in one of the leaders of this lll group and explain what's going on.
I'm new to this group and dont want to start anything...by the way i'm also a IBCLC and feel kind of stange anyways....i want to be come a lll leader to keep up my bf skills rather than working in a hospital.
At this point.....i wanted to be friends with this mama...but now...after reading this thread and excerpts of the book online...i see this TTUC is not for us. How would you handle this, speaking of being friends w this mama, future lll meetings etc. I am close with on of the leaders...we talk by phone alot and facebook just about everyday. I feel comfortable talking to her about this...but again...i dont want to stir up anything with the lll group.


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## boysmom2 (Jan 24, 2007)

Yikes! I would definitely say something to the LLL Leader. She should know that this is being encouraged at her meetings. Definitely NOT LLL approved! As for this woman, I don't know. I'm so non-confrontational I'd probably just hide from her.







I'm sure someone on here is more of a grown-up than I am and can give you some good advice!


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## DeerMother (Apr 22, 2008)

If you feel you need to explain, just tell her you read a little about it on line, and it isn't your cup of tea. No further explanations needed.


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## momma_unlimited (Aug 10, 2008)

Quote:

Yall now i'm thinking i need to confide in one of the leaders of this lll group and explain what's going on.
Out of curiosity, why would this be a matter to bring to LLL leader attention?

If this conversation is happening between mommas on the side, and not officially promoted by the leaders, isn't it... just that? A side conversation of a child-raising philosophy you think sucks?

I guess I can't imagine, from the meetings I've been to, leaders telling the mommas they can't discuss certain topics amongst themselves...???

I certainly share the disgust of others here about treating children like or worse than animals, and having read the book I pity those who cannot see the load of crap much of it is... yet, people are free...


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## Norasmomma (Feb 26, 2008)

This book is for real-wow. Thank goodness I have never heard of any of this, it sounds utterly disgustinguke

There are much better ways to gain some structure in your routine.


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## Evergreen (Nov 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma_unlimited* 
Out of curiosity, why would this be a matter to bring to LLL leader attention?

If this conversation is happening between mommas on the side, and not officially promoted by the leaders, isn't it... just that? A side conversation of a child-raising philosophy you think sucks?

I guess I can't imagine, from the meetings I've been to, leaders telling the mommas they can't discuss certain topics amongst themselves...???

I certainly share the disgust of others here about treating children like or worse than animals, and having read the book I pity those who cannot see the load of crap much of it is... yet, people are free...

It happened at one of our LLL meetings. THe leader was a real stickler about it. Apparently in 'official' meeting time you can't discuss other issues especially ones that might be controversial. She once got all over some members for discussing organic food coops.


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## Miss Chris (May 7, 2007)

I think obviously this book is a problem, but I also think that a loose, or flexible schedule might be a good idea for you.

I think that a family needs as much structure as it needs. Some people are content and relaxed with no structure at all, but it sounds like you are feeling a little worn out so you need a new plan.

I only have one daughter who isn't in school yet so we have a lot of flexibility which we take full advantage of. But I do stick to bedtime, between 7 and 8 every night depending a little on how much napping went on during the day and what else we did. I think it helps her because she knows what to expect, and through habituation she naturally gets sleepy around that time and so we have very little in the way of argument. And its good for me and DH too. We know what to expect and every day we know there will be a couple of hours to work on projects, or spend some time together, or take a bath, or whatever we need to do.

I think you can have some order in your day without resorting to autocratic parenting techniques and that it can be very beneficial even if it feels like a lot of work to make it happen.

Good luck
Miss Chris


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## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

That book makes me want to cry and throw up.









Anyway. Schedule. A loose schedule is really good. My boys need one because they are spirited/high needs/developmentally different in some ways. they have a hard time winding down. I give them a natural sleep aid chewable tablet to help them wind down for naptimes and bedtime, and we follow the following schedule for everyone's sanity:

Morning: they wake up whenever they want to, which is about 6:00am or so. I am not obligated to make them breakfast before 8am (my rule that I made up that I told them! Lol.) I usually start breakfast for them about 7:45, though.

Then, after breakfast, I get them dressed. No point in dressing them before breakfast, lol.

About 10am boys get a snack. (They ask for it because they are hungry.)

Naptime: I get them their tablets and get them down for naps about 11am, sometimes more like 12. I turn off all lights, pull down the shades on the windows, and turn on some soft music. I nurse the baby to sleep at this time, too. Her nap doesn't always coincide with theirs but it works out pretty well, usually.

They sleep about an hour. When they wake up, it's quiet time, TV time, and they get their ice cream for the day while they watch TV.

Then play time while I make lunch. Another snack or small meal around 3 or 4pm. At 6 we start getting ready for bed. When DH gets home, he reads to them while they lie in bed, and that's their bedtime ritual. If he's working late, I sing to them until they fall asleep.

Our schedules pretty much revolve around the boys' bedtimes (about 11am for the nap, about 6:30 or 7 for bedtime) and that gives our day a nice dependable structure to it which is still relaxed and flexible.









HTH somewhat.









Also, the Continuum Concept page had some good articles about dealing with nursing toddlers. It's okay to set limits and just say no with older toddlers/preschoolers. By enforcing your own personal boundaries, you are teaching your children to have healthy boundaries, too.


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## sparklefairy (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma_unlimited* 
Out of curiosity, why would this be a matter to bring to LLL leader attention?

If this conversation is happening between mommas on the side, and not officially promoted by the leaders, isn't it... just that? A side conversation of a child-raising philosophy you think sucks?

I guess I can't imagine, from the meetings I've been to, leaders telling the mommas they can't discuss certain topics amongst themselves...???

I certainly share the disgust of others here about treating children like or worse than animals, and having read the book I pity those who cannot see the load of crap much of it is... yet, people are free...

I can think of many reasons.

Some moms might just want to voice their concern. (Or she may find that she's had her say at MDC







)
The Leader(s) might plan more meetings on child development or gentle discipline in the future or choose to highlight more appropriate books from the library.
It can be helpful to know what perspective meeting attendees are coming from when facilitating future discussions. And some of the points may come up in a meeting and the Leader(s) can be prepared/brainstorm some approaches.
Even when it's just a discussion after the meeting, some mothers will walk away thinking "that lady at LLL said this."

So not a "Leader should shut this down" situation, but useful information to have.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom* 
Sadly this is not even close to the most shocking/disturbing/disgusting thing the Pearl's recommend. Its a very scary view of children and how to "train" them. Its very, very authoritarian (Dad rules, Mom is helpmate, children are taught to obey instantly without fail). Children are basically evil and need to be beaten into submission (literally). Starting before age 1 children are to be beaten with PVC pipe or switch for every single infraction, including innocent things like banging on high chair or crawling off the blanket. Its just sick.


They also think that it is okay for a child molesting husband to be welcomed back to the family after he serves his time in prison. I kid you not.

That is in one of their later books. They say to have your husband arrested, have him do 20 yrs, and then welcome him back with open arms and forgive him. Even if he does not repent, the book says.

Sick.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TinkerBelle* 
They also think that it is okay for a child molesting husband to be welcomed back to the family after he serves his time in prison. I kid you not.

That is in one of their later books. They say to have your husband arrested, have him do 20 yrs, and then welcome him back with open arms and forgive him. Even if he does not repent, the book says.

Sick.

Very sick. Also screwy in another sense. The wife can't "have him do 20 years", even if she wants to. So, what happens when he gets out in 18 months? Welcome him back with open arms, while the kids are still there? The whole thing is messed up.

As much as I hate a lot of other parenting advice/books I've heard, these people are the the worst. They make me sick.


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## momma_unlimited (Aug 10, 2008)

Quote:

It happened at one of our LLL meetings. THe leader was a real stickler about it. Apparently in 'official' meeting time you can't discuss other issues especially ones that might be controversial. She once got all over some members for discussing organic food coops.
I guess my meetings were way laid back. LOTS of conversation afterwards, and snacks... although it would have been rude for people to have side discussions DURING the meeting, I can see leaders addressing that.

Quote:

I can think of many reasons.

Some moms might just want to voice their concern. (Or she may find that she's had her say at MDC )
The Leader(s) might plan more meetings on child development or gentle discipline in the future or choose to highlight more appropriate books from the library.
It can be helpful to know what perspective meeting attendees are coming from when facilitating future discussions. And some of the points may come up in a meeting and the Leader(s) can be prepared/brainstorm some approaches.
Even when it's just a discussion after the meeting, some mothers will walk away thinking "that lady at LLL said this."

So not a "Leader should shut this down" situation, but useful information to have.
I can see your points, I guess I just think about the other side of it- what if I had been at a meeting and offered to let a pregnant momma borrow "Unassisted Childbirth" or something, and since many people think that's on the other end of the extreme scale, they then talked to the leaders about me, prepared meetings about "safe childbirth", asked mothers not to discuss birth without a trained assistant...


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## chipper26 (Sep 4, 2008)

I found these examples from a review on Amazon:

1) The Pearls recommend whipping infants only a few months old on their bare skin. They whip their own 4 month old (p.9). They recommend whipping the bare skin of "every child" (p.2) for "Christians and non-Christians" (p.5) and for "every transgression" (p.1). Parents who don't whip their babies into complete submission are portrayed as indifferemt, lazy, careless and neglectful (p.19) and are "creating a Nazi" (p.45).

2) On p.60 they recommend whipping babies who cannot sleep and are crying, and to never allow them "to get up." On p.61 they recommend whipping a 12 month old girl for crying. On p.79 they recommend whipping a 7 month old for screaming.

3) On p.65 co-author Debi Pearl whips the bare leg of a 15 month old she is babysitting, 10 separate times, for not playing with something she tells him to play with. On p.56 Debi Pearl hits a 2 your old so hard "a karate chop like wheeze came from somewhere deep inside" him.

4) On p.59 they recommend whipping a 3 year old until he is "totally broken."

5) On p.44 they say not to let the child's crying while being hit to "cause you to lighten up on the intensity or duration of the spanking."

6) On p.55 the Pearls say a mother should hit her child if he cries for her.

7) On p.80 they recommend giving a child having a tantrum "a swift *forceful* spanking." On the same page they say to whip small children on their bare skin until they stop screaming. "Don't be bullied. Give him more of the same." They say to continue whipping until their crying turns into a "wounded, submissive whimper."

8) On p.46 the Pearls say that if a child does obey before being whipped, whip them anyway. And "if you have to sit on him to spank him,then do not hesitate. And hold him there until he is surrendered. Prove that you are bigger, tougher." "Defeat him totally."

9) On p.47 they recommend their various whips, including "a belt or larger tree branch" to hit children.

10) The Pearls also recommend ignoring an infant's bumped head when he falls to the floor, and ignoring skinned knees (p.86). They also say "if your child is roughed-up by peers, rejoice." (p.81)

11) They recommend pulling a nursing infant's hair (p.7), tripping a non-swimming toddler so she falls into deep water (p.67) and to make children go hungry if they don't "like what is on the table" (p.103). Also on p.103 they say that if children lose their shoes, "let them go without until they (the children) can make the money to buy more."

So sick. These people are evil.


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## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

No kidding. That makes me feel so sick.







On a logical level, how do they even think this makes any sense as a way to raise compassionate and Christlike people? Nevermind, I don't want to know what goes on inside their twisted minds. It's just so horrible.


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## Deer Hunter (Sep 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chipper26* 
I found these examples from a review on Amazon:

1) The Pearls recommend whipping infants only a few months old on their bare skin. They whip their own 4 month old (p.9). They recommend whipping the bare skin of "every child" (p.2) for "Christians and non-Christians" (p.5) and for "every transgression" (p.1). Parents who don't whip their babies into complete submission are portrayed as indifferemt, lazy, careless and neglectful (p.19) and are "creating a Nazi" (p.45).

2) On p.60 they recommend whipping babies who cannot sleep and are crying, and to never allow them "to get up." On p.61 they recommend whipping a 12 month old girl for crying. On p.79 they recommend whipping a 7 month old for screaming.

3) On p.65 co-author Debi Pearl whips the bare leg of a 15 month old she is babysitting, 10 separate times, for not playing with something she tells him to play with. On p.56 Debi Pearl hits a 2 your old so hard "a karate chop like wheeze came from somewhere deep inside" him.

4) On p.59 they recommend whipping a 3 year old until he is "totally broken."

5) On p.44 they say not to let the child's crying while being hit to "cause you to lighten up on the intensity or duration of the spanking."

6) On p.55 the Pearls say a mother should hit her child if he cries for her.

7) On p.80 they recommend giving a child having a tantrum "a swift *forceful* spanking." On the same page they say to whip small children on their bare skin until they stop screaming. "Don't be bullied. Give him more of the same." They say to continue whipping until their crying turns into a "wounded, submissive whimper."

8) On p.46 the Pearls say that if a child does obey before being whipped, whip them anyway. And "if you have to sit on him to spank him,then do not hesitate. And hold him there until he is surrendered. Prove that you are bigger, tougher." "Defeat him totally."

9) On p.47 they recommend their various whips, including "a belt or larger tree branch" to hit children.

10) The Pearls also recommend ignoring an infant's bumped head when he falls to the floor, and ignoring skinned knees (p.86). They also say "if your child is roughed-up by peers, rejoice." (p.81)

11) They recommend pulling a nursing infant's hair (p.7), tripping a non-swimming toddler so she falls into deep water (p.67) and to make children go hungry if they don't "like what is on the table" (p.103). Also on p.103 they say that if children lose their shoes, "let them go without until they (the children) can make the money to buy more."

So sick. These people are evil.

I agree with you. They are really messed up.

Oh, I hope that this is not the enitre review word for word from the site, as it would actually violate MDC's copyright terms. No, i"m not trying to police anyone, but I just learned this this morning because I did a play by play on the book and quoted a whole lot of text from it. I'm glad the mod brought the copyright rule to my attention, so I could be mindful of it the next time. What the rule is is that you can only quote up to one hundred words of another's texxt, and still, credit has to be given to the source from which you got it. If you have more to prove than the one hundred words you are allowed to quote, then you can paraphrase. Even though you paraphrase, you still need to state where you got the information.

I hope this helps. Don't feel bad. I did not fully understand until a mod brought it to my attention. I thought that I could quote as much as I wanted to prove my point, so long as I gave credit to the original author, but I was wrong. Blessings.


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## teale (Feb 20, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boysmom2* 
What's the EASY routine? Yet another crazy book about how evil babies are?

It's by the Baby Whisperer, it stands for Eat Activity Sleep You. The whole idea is to follow this routine to a tee, because all babies function like this. The girl who I had the discussion with was darn adament that it was NOT a schedule and it was not training in any way. I tried with all my might to explain that if you baby isn't on that schedule it is TRAINING.

As for the person who was saying it should be brought to the LLL Leader's attention, I think it should be too. Some women could walk in there and think that LLL advocates an awful book like that, and it's not the case at all. I'd be most concerned about new mother's overhearing it and thinking that LLL advocates this book.


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## Mamato3wild ponnie (Jan 6, 2007)

I talked to a leader today, I feel much better. I think a great way to handle this in the future, is like another poster mentioned.....having discussion on parenting styles etc. at the next meeting. Rather than calling this mama out on it. As far as befriending this mama.....i will tell her that this style of parenting will not work for my family. That i will not be needing the book from her.
The more that i think about it...our situation here at my house is really not that bad. I think i tend to blow it out of proportion if im down or if my hubby is making me crazy for what ever reasons men do sometimes. But i like our style of parenting...it's working.


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## boysmom2 (Jan 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma_unlimited* 
Out of curiosity, why would this be a matter to bring to LLL leader attention?

If this conversation is happening between mommas on the side, and not officially promoted by the leaders, isn't it... just that? A side conversation of a child-raising philosophy you think sucks?

I guess I can't imagine, from the meetings I've been to, leaders telling the mommas they can't discuss certain topics amongst themselves...???

I certainly share the disgust of others here about treating children like or worse than animals, and having read the book I pity those who cannot see the load of crap much of it is... yet, people are free...

The thing is, this book definitely does NOT agree with LLL philosophy. LLL philosphy is much more GD.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma_unlimited* 
I guess my meetings were way laid back. LOTS of conversation afterwards, and snacks... although it would have been rude for people to have side discussions DURING the meeting, I can see leaders addressing that.

I can see your points, I guess I just think about the other side of it- what if I had been at a meeting and offered to let a pregnant momma borrow "Unassisted Childbirth" or something, and since many people think that's on the other end of the extreme scale, they then talked to the leaders about me, prepared meetings about "safe childbirth", asked mothers not to discuss birth without a trained assistant...

But a birth book like that would not directly contradict LLL philosophy. LLL says the best start to BF is when mothers are alert and fully participating in childbirth (or something like that, I can't remember exactly). So, even though some might find it extreme, I don't think it would be much of an issue.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamato3wild ponnie* 
I talked to a leader today, I feel much better. I think a great way to handle this in the future, is like another poster mentioned.....having discussion on parenting styles etc. at the next meeting. Rather than calling this mama out on it. As far as befriending this mama.....i will tell her that this style of parenting will not work for my family. That i will not be needing the book from her.
The more that i think about it...our situation here at my house is really not that bad. I think i tend to blow it out of proportion if im down or if my hubby is making me crazy for what ever reasons men do sometimes. But i like our style of parenting...it's working.









I'm glad you talked to her. I could totally see a new mom thinking that LLL recommends that book if that lady is so forward about offering it.


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## Cherry Alive (Mar 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chipper26* 
I found these examples from a review on Amazon:

1) The Pearls recommend whipping infants only a few months old on their bare skin. They whip their own 4 month old (p.9). They recommend whipping the bare skin of "every child" (p.2) for "Christians and non-Christians" (p.5) and for "every transgression" (p.1). Parents who don't whip their babies into complete submission are portrayed as indifferemt, lazy, careless and neglectful (p.19) and are "creating a Nazi" (p.45).

2) On p.60 they recommend whipping babies who cannot sleep and are crying, and to never allow them "to get up." On p.61 they recommend whipping a 12 month old girl for crying. On p.79 they recommend whipping a 7 month old for screaming.

3) On p.65 co-author Debi Pearl whips the bare leg of a 15 month old she is babysitting, 10 separate times, for not playing with something she tells him to play with. On p.56 Debi Pearl hits a 2 your old so hard "a karate chop like wheeze came from somewhere deep inside" him.

4) On p.59 they recommend whipping a 3 year old until he is "totally broken."

5) On p.44 they say not to let the child's crying while being hit to "cause you to lighten up on the intensity or duration of the spanking."

6) On p.55 the Pearls say a mother should hit her child if he cries for her.

7) On p.80 they recommend giving a child having a tantrum "a swift *forceful* spanking." On the same page they say to whip small children on their bare skin until they stop screaming. "Don't be bullied. Give him more of the same." They say to continue whipping until their crying turns into a "wounded, submissive whimper."

8) On p.46 the Pearls say that if a child does obey before being whipped, whip them anyway. And "if you have to sit on him to spank him,then do not hesitate. And hold him there until he is surrendered. Prove that you are bigger, tougher." "Defeat him totally."

9) On p.47 they recommend their various whips, including "a belt or larger tree branch" to hit children.

10) The Pearls also recommend ignoring an infant's bumped head when he falls to the floor, and ignoring skinned knees (p.86). They also say "if your child is roughed-up by peers, rejoice." (p.81)

11) They recommend pulling a nursing infant's hair (p.7), tripping a non-swimming toddler so she falls into deep water (p.67) and to make children go hungry if they don't "like what is on the table" (p.103). Also on p.103 they say that if children lose their shoes, "let them go without until they (the children) can make the money to buy more."

So sick. These people are evil.

...I just don't get it. How the heck could these people write such things (in the US) without getting their sick abusive butts hauled off to jail?


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## hippie_mommy (Jun 23, 2007)

Parents who follow them have had legal problems (there was one case where a little boy died.) Here's one article - http://www.newsobserver.com/news/cri...y/1077663.html

Unfortunately it seems to be particularly popular in the South, where spanking is much more readily accepted culturally.


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaUK* 
could you talk a bit more about this? I'm really interested , it's so strong in society that children must do as they told and if they do not obey they are naughty. I would like to explore other options other than making my children 'obey'. I often say to my children when I am very tired and exhausted 'you're just not doing as you are told/asked' and feel bad afterwards.


I'm not the poster who wrote this, but... Come visit the Gentle Discipline forum! There are lots of good resources there on this idea (btw- GD doesn't mean "no D"... It means disciplining with respect and the idea of being a teacher and a guide instead of a dictator).

You are so right- the idea we have for kids is "do as I say". Teaching a child to discern for themselves what is right is MUCH harder. It is messy, it takes allowing them to make "poor" choices to experience the consequences (within reason, obviously nothing truly dangerous). It takes patience, lots of explaining and a measure of flexibility. All this is labor intensive and takes a leap of faith that eventually the lessons will be learned (and also a tough skin, as some people feel they will be harshly judged for their child's "mistakes" in this learning process). It us much "easier" if your child just "does what you say", but... it is superficial. You "look good" as a parent of a "well behaved child", your child just goes along doing what she is told, but how does this help her become a better, stronger, more understanding person? If we go along by the idea that our children are, at heart, good people and want to do the right thing, then enabling them to do it by arranging situations where it is easy for them to do the right thing and when choices in behavior need to be made, we help them see the choices, then, they will do their best.

If you want blind followers, then the Pearls are extreme, but the "right" idea. Punishment or pain for bad, maybe treats for good. But if you want leaders, independent thinkers and children who grow up feeling that they were treated as sentient people and not pets, then it is a long, messy and very difficult process of teaching a little person of empathy, social expectations, responsibility, and self-awareness. "Discipline" becomes the partnership that it inherently is. Parents lead, describe, keep safe, set boundaries and choose environments. Kids do the best they can, learn, discuss, and give back.


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## Conifer (May 4, 2009)

My sister tried to get me to read this book. It was before she had children and thought she knew everything. I skimmed through the copy she had and from what I remember it advocates spanking even small babies!!! I remember reading something about swatting a 6 month old with a switch on the legs if they squirm during a diaper change. I was like "Are you serious!". Luckily my sister got her head screwed on a little better before her babes were born. Although she does believe in being very strict with children. She thinks I let my kids run wild LOL.


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## graceomalley (Dec 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chipper26* 
I found these examples from a review on Amazon:

1) The Pearls recommend whipping infants only a few months old on their bare skin. They whip their own 4 month old (p.9). They recommend whipping the bare skin of "every child" (p.2) for "Christians and non-Christians" (p.5) and for "every transgression" (p.1). Parents who don't whip their babies into complete submission are portrayed as indifferemt, lazy, careless and neglectful (p.19) and are "creating a Nazi" (p.45).

2) On p.60 they recommend whipping babies who cannot sleep and are crying, and to never allow them "to get up." On p.61 they recommend whipping a 12 month old girl for crying. On p.79 they recommend whipping a 7 month old for screaming.

3) On p.65 co-author Debi Pearl whips the bare leg of a 15 month old she is babysitting, 10 separate times, for not playing with something she tells him to play with. On p.56 Debi Pearl hits a 2 your old so hard "a karate chop like wheeze came from somewhere deep inside" him.

4) On p.59 they recommend whipping a 3 year old until he is "totally broken."

5) On p.44 they say not to let the child's crying while being hit to "cause you to lighten up on the intensity or duration of the spanking."

6) On p.55 the Pearls say a mother should hit her child if he cries for her.

7) On p.80 they recommend giving a child having a tantrum "a swift *forceful* spanking." On the same page they say to whip small children on their bare skin until they stop screaming. "Don't be bullied. Give him more of the same." They say to continue whipping until their crying turns into a "wounded, submissive whimper."

8) On p.46 the Pearls say that if a child does obey before being whipped, whip them anyway. And "if you have to sit on him to spank him,then do not hesitate. And hold him there until he is surrendered. Prove that you are bigger, tougher." "Defeat him totally."

9) On p.47 they recommend their various whips, including "a belt or larger tree branch" to hit children.

10) The Pearls also recommend ignoring an infant's bumped head when he falls to the floor, and ignoring skinned knees (p.86). They also say "if your child is roughed-up by peers, rejoice." (p.81)

11) They recommend pulling a nursing infant's hair (p.7), tripping a non-swimming toddler so she falls into deep water (p.67) and to make children go hungry if they don't "like what is on the table" (p.103). Also on p.103 they say that if children lose their shoes, "let them go without until they (the children) can make the money to buy more."

So sick. These people are evil.

They're 1000% evil and should rot in jail.


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## chipper26 (Sep 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deer Hunter* 
I agree with you. They are really messed up.

Oh, I hope that this is not the enitre review word for word from the site, as it would actually violate MDC's copyright terms. No, i"m not trying to police anyone, but I just learned this this morning because I did a play by play on the book and quoted a whole lot of text from it. I'm glad the mod brought the copyright rule to my attention, so I could be mindful of it the next time. What the rule is is that you can only quote up to one hundred words of another's texxt, and still, credit has to be given to the source from which you got it. If you have more to prove than the one hundred words you are allowed to quote, then you can paraphrase. Even though you paraphrase, you still need to state where you got the information.

I hope this helps. Don't feel bad. I did not fully understand until a mod brought it to my attention. I thought that I could quote as much as I wanted to prove my point, so long as I gave credit to the original author, but I was wrong. Blessings.

It's not the whole review, just the quotes they used with the page numbers. It is a good portion of it, though. Oops! I didn't know and won't do it again, but the review can be found on the website for Amazon.


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## Epona (Jul 20, 2009)

Wow. I never knew about any of this. How horrifying.


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## PPK (Feb 15, 2007)

First, I have to say, ***I don't agree with hitting a child****

But...

I just read several articles on their website and honestly, they don't sound as horrific as many people make them out to be. They said they never hit any of their children under the age of 1 and afterwards use a light 'swat' in order to not use their hands because they are aware of the potential for severe damage from hand-slapping (so in their intention, its a gentler way instead of slapping). They also support co-sleeping and no-schooling. Alot of their advice is quite on board with MDC.

I think its unfortunate the severe angle they took on using 'training' in certain books and articles, and its even more unfortunate that there are many people out there who blindly try to folow their advice and cause harm (or death) to a child.

Again, I'm not supporting their viewpoints on 'training' via physical pain...just figured I'd throw out some other information I learned today about them. Maybe they realized the potential for people abusing their children and they backed down on the way they advise swatting little ones...it kind of seems like the case to me, given the articles I just read through. Maybe they'll revise their book to be the same....I pray for that to happen so others don't misuse/use the advice.

OK...fire away!


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SandraS* 
I had to read that twice. SHOCKED.

Me too. My 6mo drives me crazy during diaper changes right now, but spanking him? NEVER.


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## PhoenixMommaToTwo (Feb 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PPK* 
First, I have to say, ***I don't agree with hitting a child****

But...

I just read several articles on their website and honestly, they don't sound as horrific as many people make them out to be. They said they never hit any of their children under the age of 1 and afterwards use a light 'swat' in order to not use their hands because they are aware of the potential for severe damage from hand-slapping (so in their intention, its a gentler way instead of slapping). They also support co-sleeping and no-schooling. Alot of their advice is quite on board with MDC.

I think its unfortunate the severe angle they took on using 'training' in certain books and articles, and its even more unfortunate that there are many people out there who blindly try to folow their advice and cause harm (or death) to a child.

Again, I'm not supporting their viewpoints on 'training' via physical pain...just figured I'd throw out some other information I learned today about them. Maybe they realized the potential for people abusing their children and they backed down on the way they advise swatting little ones...it kind of seems like the case to me, given the articles I just read through. Maybe they'll revise their book to be the same....I pray for that to happen so others don't misuse/use the advice.

OK...fire away!

Ummm...... maybe you should read their books and not the website. Not flaming at all, but I did read their current book and yes they support co-sleeping, un-schooling and even breastfeeding, BUT the theme of their books center around physical punishment and control. And in the course of their homeschooling advice, they push gender stereotypes and urge parents to train their girls to be submissive in every way and their boys to be controlling dictators. There is also a portion of the book where they advise that if you are to leave a younger child in the care of an older child, the older child should be able to "whip" the younger. This is a minor example of what they advocate. So, yes they do teach some things MDC approvable, but in their case, I think the bad outweighs the good, you know?


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## JavaJunkie (Jan 16, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PhoenixMommaToTwo* 
Ummm...... maybe you should read their books and not the website. Not flaming at all, but I did read their current book and yes they support co-sleeping, un-schooling and even breastfeeding, BUT the theme of their books center around physical punishment and control. And in the course of their homeschooling advice, they push gender stereotypes and urge parents to train their girls to be submissive in every way and their boys to be controlling dictators. There is also a portion of the book where they advise that if you are to leave a younger child in the care of an older child, the older child should be able to "whip" the younger. This is a minor example of what they advocate. So, yes they do teach some things MDC approvable, but in their case, I think the bad outweighs the good, you know?

Definitely outweighs the good. I don't care if a parent breastfeeds, cosleeps, and home/unschools. If they beat their children and treat them like objects to be controlled, they are abusers.

Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if the Pearl's more recent writings have been toned down. It's an "Ezzo" effect...when more people realize how horrid their "advice" is, they tone it down and try to make it more palatable to the mainstream in order to keep selling books and gaining followers.


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## Deer Hunter (Sep 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PPK* 
First, I have to say, ***I don't agree with hitting a child****

But...

I just read several articles on their website and honestly, they don't sound as horrific as many people make them out to be. They said they never hit any of their children under the age of 1 and afterwards use a light 'swat' in order to not use their hands because they are aware of the potential for severe damage from hand-slapping (so in their intention, its a gentler way instead of slapping). They also support co-sleeping and no-schooling. Alot of their advice is quite on board with MDC.

I think its unfortunate the severe angle they took on using 'training' in certain books and articles, and its even more unfortunate that there are many people out there who blindly try to folow their advice and cause harm (or death) to a child.

Again, I'm not supporting their viewpoints on 'training' via physical pain...just figured I'd throw out some other information I learned today about them. Maybe they realized the potential for people abusing their children and they backed down on the way they advise swatting little ones...it kind of seems like the case to me, given the articles I just read through. Maybe they'll revise their book to be the same....I pray for that to happen so others don't misuse/use the advice.

OK...fire away!

Actually they do advocate hitting children under age one. They advocate hitting the newborns, as they feel that training should start early. Their argument for training a child long before it can understand and reason is that a dog can be trained to obey commands without fail. so, babies are dogs to them.

They did hit one of their children under age one, and they admitted to it in their book on page nine. It was their four month old daughter. They hit her with a twelve inch switch that came from a willow tree on the back of her legs because she was trying to climb the stairs.


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## Deer Hunter (Sep 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JavaJunkie* 
Definitely outweighs the good. I don't care if a parent breastfeeds, cosleeps, and home/unschools. If they beat their children and treat them like objects to be controlled, they are abusers.

Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if the Pearl's more recent writings have been toned down. It's an "Ezzo" effect...when more people realize how horrid their "advice" is, they tone it down and try to make it more palatable to the mainstream in order to keep selling books and gaining followers.


You are very right. Spock and Ferber also did the same. When the "experts" are exposed, they try to make themselves look good by changing what they say. I don't care if they do this because they show you their true colors the first time around. They have no backbone, as they will do what it takes just to get a buck and exploit tired and searching parents. I have no respect for "experts" who just change their material just to be acceptable all because theyy were exposed as sedistic. I'll follow the good ones, thank you, such as Doctor Sears, because he has it right from the beginning.


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## itsajenism (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mysticmomma* 
it's the pearls. they advocate spanking 6 mos old that roll over during diaper changes.

What.The.







??

I have heard bad things about this book... but didn't know much about the specific details.
I am at a loss for words... *blink*


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## PPK (Feb 15, 2007)

Agreed that the bad outweighs the good, some of thier advice is unforgivable IMO (accepting back a husband who molests your child, for example..), so I guess its hard for me to wrap my head around so much contradicting advice from them, and that unfortunatley makes me wary of accepting any of it, no matter how good it may be (some blogs on their site were actually quite beautiful and centered on the whole 'God is Love' theme..).

Although I'm not Christian or of a religion, I read their marriage book and its not about being a doormat. She advocates being a strong, hardworking and graceful woman (for the most part..of course there are some points I'm not 100% on, again, accepting an abusive hubby who's 'repented').

She is of the belief that surrender of your ego for the ability to love and be a help to another is a way to experience divine love and beauty in your marriage. This theory/practice can be seen in many relious and spiritual communities, often times maybe not as emphasized on your husband, but I do value it as a way to personal liberation from your ego's negativity, in essence, allowing the Infinite (aka, God, Universal Conciousness, whatever your word is..) to BE in your life.

But, yeah, I'm so sorry that their child advice is the way it is regarding the physical discipline (abuse).









PS, I don't have any intention of defending them, just wanted to throw in my .2 since I spent alot of time this summer thinking about them and their marriage lifestyle advice.


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

People claim to abuse others in the name of love all the time. And it certainly is possible to hold conflicting ideals and have distorted ways of enacting those ideals. There are LOTS of people and groups that discuss letting go of the ego to reach a high level of connection (Buddhists, for example) that don't in any way advocate abuse. But the Pearl's "ways" are wrong. Pure and simple. If you have enough chutzpah and mishegas (loosely translated as "guts and craziness") to read them and try to take only "good" ideas and leave the "bad"... Well, good luck. It will be a very hard task.

Just having an idea of positive thinking, love and G-d doesn't make them right.

I mean, Hitler was an artist and loved animals. Stalin spent time in a seminary to become a priest. I think THEIR views on how we should treat eachother and how we go about making a better world show that you must judge on what you see happening- people's actions, not someone elses ideal.

And, just for the record, MDC'ers don't have a monopoly on the ideas of co-sleeping, bf or homeschooling. There are plenty of nuts that do these things for other reasons that are not at all the same that we do them and the results are very,very different.


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## PPK (Feb 15, 2007)

On a slightly different note, how does one go about effecting change in a situation like this? I guess what I've been thinking about alot is whether or not it is possible to not write off people completely, but instead try to gain a better understanding of why they do what they do, in order to facilitate change for the better.

I don't know if that makes sense, but I hope the basic jist comes across. I wrote them off comletely a few months back when I heard bits and peices of what they taught, but now am interested in the pattern of thought that produces certain lifestyles. Is it possible for people of different practices to approach another out of concern in a gentle manner?

And yes, I feel able to discern good information from what isn't ok in my life without subscribing to everything a group advocates.


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## circuitsndaisies (Apr 24, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma_unlimited* 
This book was given to me as a new mother.

It made the first two years of DS1's life pretty awful, not because I followed it to a T, but because I had the seed planted in my mind that if my child doesn't obey, I'm a bad mother..

Me too. The most shameful thing I ever did as a parent was read this book with an open mind. Thankfully my gut told me it was wrong from the very beginning, but it still made things very difficult for the first year or so. These people are dangerous. They make my stomach churn with anger and sadness.

WRT these books (Ezzo, Pearl) using the Bible as their basis, it is typical. This is how I got introducted to this book in the first place (fundamentalist church that I ran far away from years ago). It is not surprising that both Ezzo and Pearl are conservative men who are undoubtedly very afraid of losing control of their "world". Many people who are insecure and afraid use the Bible as means to try to convey an agenda or simply to make themselves feel important.


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PPK* 
And yes, I feel able to discern good information from what isn't ok in my life without subscribing to everything a group advocates.

Most people DO feel that way... That they can tell the good from the bad. And often, we can, and we are lucky enough to have the choice. But some things can be very persuasive and can get muddled. I'm not saying YOU personally. YOU, PPK, might be able to do it just fine with this stuff, but people get sucked into cults. Whole societies go crazy. I mean, talking about Stalin (who killed an estimated 20 million people- on the low end estimates- through policy, punishment, relocation and genocide and spent his reign intimidating and lying to the population and killing whoever he felt like) is still an icon in Russia and according to recent polls, only less than 1/3 of Russians view him negatively and about half of the young population call him a "wise leader" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin. So, it is not a given that everyone- even ourselves sometimes- can not get sucked into bad ideas by charismatic people playing on our personal weaknesses and singing the tune of our cultural identity.

Anyway- I think your original question, for me, is answered "sometimes". Yes, sometimes we can find a way to talk. To communicate. And sometimes, the answer is an emphatic no. Sometimes the only way to change minds is to change laws, to express certain things are unacceptable and to counter them.

The Pearls? Well, I think where this is coming out of is a very insulated and riteous Christian fundamentalism that glorifies the "simple, old days" and blind obedience. I think the fact that these ideals have somehow become connected to religion to many people and this is the main problem. Now, its not "Don't hit your kids because it is not nice and there are better ways" it comes out to them "Don't listen to what G-d told you! Your religion is WRONG!". What you say and what is heard can be very different. I think that "fighting" the Pearls will be harder than fighting the "casual spanker" because the Pearls and their followers now believe that there is a religious basis to this.


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## momma_unlimited (Aug 10, 2008)

Quote:

On a slightly different note, how does one go about effecting change in a situation like this? I guess what I've been thinking about alot is whether or not it is possible to not write off people completely, but instead try to gain a better understanding of why they do what they do, in order to facilitate change for the better.

I don't know if that makes sense, but I hope the basic jist comes across. I wrote them off comletely a few months back when I heard bits and peices of what they taught, but now am interested in the pattern of thought that produces certain lifestyles. Is it possible for people of different practices to approach another out of concern in a gentle manner?

And yes, I feel able to discern good information from what isn't ok in my life without subscribing to everything a group advocates.
Along these lines, I sometimes wonder... we have such lovely ideals for children on MDC, but for people who antagonize or represent the antithesis of our ideals, we say things like they should "rot in jail";their sick and abusive butts should be hauled off to jail"; "they are evil"...

Several of my mother's friends who wholly supported me as a mother, generously gave me tons of baby things to start me off, and were always checking up to see how I was, totally bought into this stuff... they really are well-meaning women and trying to be good mothers. But I can definately see a pattern- they are very "in their head" method-oriented people who are easily swayed by things called "holy", "righteous", "good", without needing much "proof" that it is actually so. Funny how I remember them being all invested in this stuff, and their husbands being pretty aloof to it.

Speaking in waldorfy terms, I would say they have too much form and not enough life- too much contraction and not enough expansion- it is an imbalance within which gives room to such extremes. I think the best "cure" is to expose them to LIFE- things of beauty, truth, freedom- to regain that sense of what IS balanced- because nature, both physical and human, have the capacity, actually the propensity, to seek a state of balance when provided the right environment.

It's funny; my husband thinks Michael Pearl is a great dad because he dropped the external trappings of materialism, headed out to the country, and gave up a steady "income" to be a constant part of his kid's lives and have them by his side all day. He looked past most of the crappy stuff in that book and was motivated to spend more time with the kids, takes them hiking, fishing, even on a 4 day beach vacation by himself when I was too nauseous to drive along with them with morning sickness. Me, on the other hand, I get sweaty and panicky when I look at the title of it. Strange how a person can take the good and completely block out the crap, and another person (myself) who is potentially weaker in makeup gets taken in by some of the lies.


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma_unlimited* 
Along these lines, I sometimes wonder... we have such lovely ideals for children on MDC, but for people who antagonize or represent the antithesis of our ideals, we say things like they should "rot in jail";their sick and abusive butts should be hauled off to jail"; "they are evil"...


I don't think it is the same thing. If you shop at Walmart for your Clorox wipes, formula feed, think doctors and teachers know everything, had an elective c-section, use candybars as rewards, love TV, etc. This is the antithesis of MDC. I might disagree with you, but not say you should rot in jail or say you are sick or abusive. The Pearls advocate an unhealthy system that hurts- physically, emotionally, and spiritually.


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## enigo (Mar 11, 2009)

I think I may have died a little inside after reading the link. ..
Man, what a way for a child to live. A great way to teach your kids to live "obey without question". Should make for some happy well adjusted adults, wouldn't you say?







:


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Iunderstand that this is a subject that brings out very strong reactions, but you still need to keep your responses within the UA.

Quote:

Do not post in a disrespectful, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, demeaning criticism, name-calling, personal attack or in any way which violates the law.
Please keep your discusion on the book and refrain from the personal attacks on the author.


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## PPK (Feb 15, 2007)

*double post


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## PPK (Feb 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma_unlimited* 
Along these lines, I sometimes wonder... we have such lovely ideals for children on MDC, but for people who antagonize or represent the antithesis of our ideals, we say things like they should "rot in jail";their sick and abusive butts should be hauled off to jail"; "they are evil"...

Several of my mother's friends who wholly supported me as a mother, generously gave me tons of baby things to start me off, and were always checking up to see how I was, totally bought into this stuff... they really are well-meaning women and trying to be good mothers. But I can definately see a pattern- they are very "in their head" method-oriented people who are easily swayed by things called "holy", "righteous", "good", without needing much "proof" that it is actually so. Funny how I remember them being all invested in this stuff, and their husbands being pretty aloof to it.

Speaking in waldorfy terms, I would say they have too much form and not enough life- too much contraction and not enough expansion- it is an imbalance within which gives room to such extremes. I think the best "cure" is to expose them to LIFE- things of beauty, truth, freedom- to regain that sense of what IS balanced- because nature, both physical and human, have the capacity, actually the propensity, to seek a state of balance when provided the right environment.

It's funny; my husband thinks Michael Pearl is a great dad because he dropped the external trappings of materialism, headed out to the country, and gave up a steady "income" to be a constant part of his kid's lives and have them by his side all day. He looked past most of the crappy stuff in that book and was motivated to spend more time with the kids, takes them hiking, fishing, even on a 4 day beach vacation by himself when I was too nauseous to drive along with them with morning sickness. Me, on the other hand, I get sweaty and panicky when I look at the title of it. Strange how a person can take the good and completely block out the crap, and another person (myself) who is potentially weaker in makeup gets taken in by some of the lies.

Well said.. I was figuring I'd be on my own on this one...but what else is new


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## Equuskia (Dec 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma_unlimited* 
Strange how a person can take the good and completely block out the crap, and another person (myself) who is potentially weaker in makeup gets taken in by some of the lies.

It's not a question of weak makeup. These people write things in such a way that you get wrapped up in it, and don't notice that what they are spoon feeding you is cherry flavored castor oil.

I think they have _some_ good advice, BUT you can get good advice in other places, from other people that don't advocate beating babies and children.


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## PhoenixMommaToTwo (Feb 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Equuskia* 
It's not a question of weak makeup. These people write things in such a way that you get wrapped up in it, and don't notice that what they are spoon feeding you is cherry flavored castor oil.

I think they have _some_ good advice, BUT you can get good advice in other places, from other people that don't advocate beating babies and children.









:

I don't think that I personally could take any good from these people. It's too wrapped up in vile, ABUSIVE behavior. I mean let's face it, any way you look at it, they are advocating abuse. And it's not just physical abuse. They use mental abuse and not just in their parenting books. I've read her book on marriage and yes, she does promote putting aside your selfishness, but to me, it's to the extreme that you have to submit everything to your husband. Even in the extreme of abuse being enacted on yourself or your children. This is a very twisted view. Why should I, as a wife, woman and mother have to put everything I am and believe to satisfy my husband? Isn't marriage and parenting a partnership? Sorry, totally off subject there.

I think in the long run, there are absolutely better places for parenting advice and for me, I choose not to support these people in any way. Sure, they went off the grid to spend more time with their kids, but what kind of time spent was it? Sure, they believe in breastfeeding and unschooling, but they contradict the nurturing aspect of these by beating their children. How confusing. I take in people as a whole. I see where there intentions were good, but then they went totally off the wall and not only that, they drug how many parents looking for guidance with them? There is no excuse, seriously.


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## momma_unlimited (Aug 10, 2008)

Quote:

I don't think it is the same thing. If you shop at Walmart for your Clorox wipes, formula feed, think doctors and teachers know everything, had an elective c-section, use candybars as rewards, love TV, etc. This is the antithesis of MDC. I might disagree with you, but not say you should rot in jail or say you are sick or abusive. The Pearls advocate an unhealthy system that hurts- physically, emotionally, and spiritually.
Really? I think MDC is about truly connecting (and the formula, c-sections, CIO, punitive discipline all are an outward sign of that inward lack of connection), about truly nurturing mankind- about being NATURAL (we are all connected to one another, to the earth, we all have the same basic human nature and potential for it to be amazingly constructive or exceedingly destructive- and here at MDC we are trying to live lifestyles that enable the best in human nature to come to fruition)... and hanging out on the GD boards so much, and learning about how "punishment and rewards" does not make the ideal impact, I wonder... all these things we consider inferior treatment for children, when do they become acceptable treatment for adults? The day they turn 18? I know some people have "degrees" of badness, but ultimately... how bad is bad enough that people can wish such nasty things for you, instead of hoping you will become aware of your mistakes?

In regards to how disgusting it is to forgive your husband if he served a 20 yr sentence for child molestation... well... we don't say at the altar "til death do us part, unless you commit an act I consider heinous". Is there such a thing as unconditional love (not suggesting we should allow someone to continue to hurt people), and if there is, wouldn't situations like these be the ultimate way to show unconditional love? If your child grew up and did something heinous, when would you give up on hoping they could be healed of their soul sickness and start to wish they would rot in jail? I'd like to think that the same unconditional love that would never allow me to completely write off my child no matter what, would allow me to never write off a husband no matter what either (again, not saying I would accept sick/abusive behaviour in the name of "unconditional love"- but rather, that I would not "stop loving" the actual person. Loving them does not mean you would have to live with them per se, but then, I think it would also mean you might not completely discard the idea of being able to restore a home with them, either).

I guess I also think that unconditional love of the person (which does not involve "allowing/accepting" their behaviour) is probably the most likely way to transform them to a "whole" individual... ???


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

Maybe I wasn't clear? I was saying parents who do those things (CIO, bribes, etc.) are the opposite of what we do here at MDC. But they are not inherently criminal or abusive choices (such as following the Pearl's advice would be).


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## momma_unlimited (Aug 10, 2008)

Quote:

It's not a question of weak makeup. These people write things in such a way that you get wrapped up in it, and don't notice that what they are spoon feeding you is cherry flavored castor oil.
I don't believe anyone has the power to bypass someone's judgment (except maybe hypnosis). The Pearls are not snake charmers; you only get wrapped up in something if you allow yourself to...

My good judgement was seriously undermined by my upbringing- I was trained to be a sheep. I think we innately have a sense for what is true and good, but that sense can be dulled or desensitized- leaving a person easy prey for faulty ideologies. That was what I meant by weak makeup. I know a handful of free thinkers who read the book and nothing stuck; they just automatically discarded it.

Quote:

BUT you can get good advice in other places, from other people that don't advocate beating babies and children.
Totally agree!


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## Spirit Dancer (Dec 11, 2006)

I have read the books and most of the website and they are not as bad as most people here are making them out to be. Yes, they DO advocate corporal punishment and do believe it is an essential tool in child rearing (btw I do not agree with this). But they are very caring, loving people. It is obvious they deeply care for their children and their adult have a strong relationship with them now.
And they did not have enough to do with the death of the child. They are appalled it happened- that any parent would do that.
I know it seems I am defending the wrong side but I am tired of people showing bits of info that does not accurately represent a view/person.


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## momma_unlimited (Aug 10, 2008)

Slept on this thread and woke up thinking I could put my previous posts more succinctly:

I'm totally in agreement with attacking wrong ideas. But not the PEOPLE behind them (wishing them misfortune, etc).

And if people who embrace these ideas were sent to "rot in jail", I can guarantee you they would consider themselves suffering for righteousness' sake, become stronger in their stance and proclaim themselves "persecuted", and try to convert everyone in their prison- Michael Pearl already has a thriving jail ministry and sends his materials to jails around the US for free. Soooo... I would be way more interested in his transformation than his incarceration. =)


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spirit Dancer* 
Yes, they DO advocate corporal punishment and do believe it is an essential tool in child rearing (btw I do not agree with this). But they are very caring, loving people.


I cannot reconcile this. I cannot really make these come together, as for me physical pain and domination does not equal a show of love. So, how do you see this as being true? How do you love and hit- especially with the intention of blind, questionless obedience?









It is very easy to get caught in spirals like this- "I'm doing this for your own good", "This is what G-d wants", "I'm doing it because I care and love you so much I want you to learn", "Its not that bad", "It doesn't really hurt", "Things will get better", "Once we learn who is in charge, things will settle down"... These are classic lines of people who justify pain in the name of love. If the person loves underneath it all, it may be. But it does not excuse the actions. All people are a mix of good and bad. But this book, and this method, should not be mistaken for an acceptable way of showing love, even if it talks about love. It is wrong. Period.

Many moons ago, my mama told me as a little girl "If a man ever hits you, don't stay around to listen for him to say he loves you. Love and hitting never belong together." True, mama. So true. So, if the Pearl's are "loving", I'm still not waiting around to hear it. They lost me at the hitting. There are plenty of other people willing to talk about love that don't advocate using *instruments* to hit my child.


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spirit Dancer* 
I have read the books and most of the website and they are not as bad as most people here are making them out to be. Yes, they DO advocate corporal punishment and do believe it is an essential tool in child rearing (btw I do not agree with this). *But they are very caring, loving people.* It is obvious they deeply care for their children and their adult have a strong relationship with them now.
And they did not have enough to do with the death of the child. They are appalled it happened- that any parent would do that.
I know it seems I am defending the wrong side but I am tired of people showing bits of info that does not accurately represent a view/person.

How does that reflect the following quotes? Are they not accurate? Are the authors NOT the kind of people that would do this to their child?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chipper26* 
...

4) *On p.59 they recommend whipping a 3 year old until he is "totally broken."*

...

7) On p.80 they recommend giving a child having a tantrum "a swift *forceful* spanking." On the same page they say to whip small children on their bare skin until they stop screaming. *"Don't be bullied. Give him more of the same." They say to continue whipping until their crying turns into a "wounded, submissive whimper."*

*8) On p.46 the Pearls say that if a child does obey before being whipped, whip them anyway. And "if you have to sit on him to spank him,then do not hesitate. And hold him there until he is surrendered. Prove that you are bigger, tougher." "Defeat him totally."*

9) On p.47 they recommend their various whips, including "a belt or larger tree branch" to hit children.

My mind is boiling reading it over. I can't imagine taking ANY advice from a book or a person that can do any of the things described in the post below. How does that not turn everyone's stomach?









As far as having wonderful relationship with their children, I want to know what kind of quality relationship a toddler who's been whipped into submission until he is whimpering and past the point of screaming and crying has with his parents.

You know who has wonderful relationship with her parents? I do. And I've never been spanked. When I picture someone doing to their child what this book describes...dunno.. How can this book ever be defended? Should a woman that's being abused appreciate that fact that her abuser is a well-read man and stick around for the intellectual discussion that happens every Wednesday night before the beating? Should a child that's being whipped care that his mom has an IQ of 145, and be delighted that his mother loves him enough to read the said book and WHIP him, because she cares apparently? Why does it matter what good pieces of advice may be within this book, when at its core it is anti everything what I believe parent-child relationship should be like?

This book promotes child abuse. No "good" piece of advice can make up for that fact.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma_unlimited* 
In regards to how disgusting it is to forgive your husband if he served a 20 yr sentence for child molestation... well... we don't say at the altar "til death do us part, unless you commit an act I consider heinous". Is there such a thing as unconditional love (not suggesting we should allow someone to continue to hurt people), and if there is, wouldn't situations like these be the ultimate way to show unconditional love?

To whom? I can't even begin to imagine sending my child the message that now that they're "safe" from a man who sexually abused them, I'm going to clasp him back to my bosom and love him from the depths of my heart. I mean...honestly. I can't even wrap my brain around "okay, kids - you're gone, so now I'm going to put all my energies back where they belong - the total support and unconditional love of a man who brutalized you". Nope. I just can't get that. And, yeah - I do think such a man should stay in jail, not because I think he should "rot", but because I believe he has an incurable illness, and I'm not okay with thinking that it's okay for other kids to go through that, because I've protected mine.

Quote:

If your child grew up and did something heinous, when would you give up on hoping they could be healed of their soul sickness and start to wish they would rot in jail?
If my child grew up to be a pedophile, I wouldn't ever want to see them released again. It has nothing to do with whether or not I love them (although I don't know how I'd feel - I do know, from my first marriage, that love can die when you realize the person you loved was never real). It has to do with the fact that they're a danger to a very vulnerable segment of society.

Quote:

would allow me to never write off a husband no matter what either (again, not saying I would accept sick/abusive behaviour in the name of "unconditional love"- but rather, that I would not "stop loving" the actual person. Loving them does not mean you would have to live with them per se,
You're supposed to live with him again. Once he gets out of jail, you take him back. It's not about unconditional love. It's about your job as a wife.
I will freely admit, though, that I don't think I'm capable of unconditional love. I can't see how I could love "the actual person" who raped my child. I really don't...and I think I'd have to be insane to even _consider_ ever making a home with them again.

Quote:

I guess I also think that unconditional love of the person (which does not involve "allowing/accepting" their behaviour) is probably the most likely way to transform them to a "whole" individual... ???
This reminds me of the notion that the "love of a good woman" can change a "bad boy" into a good man. I've never seen it work...not ever. Guys with some problems? Sure. Guys who are a little rough around the edges, and have never had a good role model? Sure. Pedophiles and sociopaths? Not so much.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamato3wild ponnie* 
Yall now i'm thinking i need to confide in one of the leaders of this lll group and explain what's going on.

I think this is a good idea. If I were the Leader of this group, I would want to know. She might want to do an enrichment meeting on the issue of gentle discipline, or at least better understand what might be going on in the meetings. Obviously you don't have to let her know, but there is nothing wrong with letting her know. And you never know when someone will go to a meeting, have the Pearls book recommended to them and then never return, discounting the whole group because of that.

Oops, I just have just said Yeah, that to what SparkleFairy said.


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## mnm4242 (Mar 30, 2009)

This is just horrific! They justifiy it too because they think this is what the Bible wants them to do.

It's a sick sad world. Poor kids that are caught in the middle of this. It's no wonder there are so many messed up adults. The life has been sucked out of them since they were infants. I feel sick now.


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## QueenOfTheMeadow (Mar 25, 2005)

Please keep in mind the UA when posting.

Quote:

We host discussion of nighttime parenting, loving discipline, gentle weaning, natural birth, homebirth, successful breastfeeding, alternative and complementary home remedies, informed consent and many other topics from a natural point of view. *We are not interested, however, in hosting discussions on the merits* of crying it out, harsh sleep training,

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physical punishment
, formula feeding, elective cesarean section, routine infant medical circumcision, or mandatory vaccinations.
towards children or others!

Quote:

Do not post in a disrespectful, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, demeaning criticism, name-calling, personal attack or in any way which violates the law.


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