# Anyone esle NOT plan on pushing their kids to go to college?



## Amila (Apr 4, 2006)

Neither of my parents went to college- my Dad had his own welding business and worked his butt off and made close to $100,000 a year in the 80's (which was a LOT back then). My mom slowly but surely worked her way from a minimum wage waitress job to making $50,000/year with great benefits working at Merck.

They were always VERY adamant about us going to college. Everything was in preparation for getting into a good college so we could get a great job.

Well I got into a great college, graduated at the top of my class, racked up $80,000 in debt, and could not find a SINGLE job willing to pay me more than $12/hour...or even a decent full time one for that matter. I doubled majored in psych/criminalistics.

DH went to Penn State, hated school, loved college life, and ended up racking up tons of debt in the 6 years he partied there and never graduated. He now owns a successful tile business making around $100,000/year. He could have never made that much with the degree he was pursuing.

I am a SAHM. After my kids are in school I plan to open up my own business.

So, my point it, unless my kids have a specific career path in mind that they are set on, I am not going to make them think college is the be all end all.

Anyone with me?


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## mama_b (Dec 14, 2004)

Absolutely. If they want to go that's completely fine with me, but I'm not going to hype it up to be something that they have to do to be successful. Dh and I both have student loan debt and nothing to show for it.


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## tinyblackdot (Aug 31, 2007)

I wish my parents HAD pushed and supported me going to college......


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

I don't think that college is required, but it can be a big help. We will have the funds available to pay for college if that is what they want or the money can sit there waiting until they need it for another reason.


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## Mama Mko (Jul 26, 2007)

I don't plan on pushing my kids into college. I think learning is important and I hope they continue to learn their whole lives, but you don't need to be in a school setting to do that. If they want to go to college, I support that decision. If they want to work instead, I support that decision.

I will not be paying for college. They are welcome to stay at home with us while they go to school so they have no food or rent costs, but I won't be paying their tuition.


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## Amys1st (Mar 18, 2003)

I guess I am confused. Yes, I will always want my children to put their education as a top priority. But I guess I had a different experience with my education. I didnt see my college time nor do I see my degree as a chance to "rake up debt, party or spend 6 years" doing so.

There are many ways to get a decent education that do not include partying for 6 years. Also a degree does not guarentee a job waiting at the finish line nor making more money. Finally, this can be done with out running up 6 figures or 5 high figures of debt.

What is it- something no one can ever take away from you. You now are armed w knowledge. Also it should be a learning experience. My father always jokes that people with more formal education know what they dont know. Where as people with out, do not know what they dont know!

We will always make education a priority and make it easier for my girls to pursue furthering their education, just like both of our parents did before us. But yes, I think college is not for everyone.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

I definitely won't 'push' them into college. I might encourage it, support them along the way --including financially to the extent that we can, but I surely wouldn't be heartbroken if they choose another path in life.

Neither DH or I have a college degree. I do feel like the oddball in my family, my bro has his MBA, my sister a BA, my mom has two Master degrees, my dad a PHD (in law) but yet we are comfortable and doing fairly well right now.

I know plenty of people with college degrees who are unhappy, have a good amount of student loans and make 1/3 of what my DH earns. SO, it's not like I feel that it's the most important thing to do after highschool.


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## soxthecatrules (Oct 20, 2008)

I will encourage my children to get some type of training. I really don't care if its a 4 year degree or something at a technical college...i.e. wind farming is becoming HUGE in our area.


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## Blucactus (Nov 20, 2006)

This thread made me smile. I can't see pushing them into it as I am a non-college-educated mama, thankyouverymuch. I didn't know what I wanted to "do" (besides my dream of writing) when I graduated high school, and I didn't want to rack up tons of loans and debt and waste time in school on a non-major (I got a lot of flack for being a failure because I didn't go straight from HS to college, BTW). I ended up traveling, working assorted interesting (and not) jobs, then I needed to work because I was getting married and DH was still in school, so I too a nanny position, got some great "on the job training"







, retired when I had my DS1 and then had DS2 22 months later.









All that to say, a degree would have been wasted on me by now anyway. I don't see it as a be all end all thing. I want my kids to do what they are happy doing, good at and passionate about. I am not AGAINST college, and may go some day when I am done mothering full time and if what I want to do or be would benifit from the education. DH has a different veiw of this I am sure. He did 6 years of school, worked crappy jobs to pay the bills for a couple years and now has a lovely career which is his dream job. He is an engineer, so school wasn't really optional for him.


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## PaigeC (Nov 25, 2008)

I would never "push" my kids to go to college if they wanted something else. However my college education has given me a job I love. One of the reasons I was adamant about college myself and why I kept going till I found what I loved was that I saw my dad "work" at a job he hated to make ends meet. I decided I wanted to do something fulfilling. College gave me that. I feel like I make a difference in the world. Which makes it worth the (horrible) student loans to me.

Now there are plenty of ways to make a difference without college! I mostly want my kids to be happy, fulfilled and never limited by something they think they can't do.

great question. I love the thought provoking issues on this board.


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## aprons_and_acorns (Sep 28, 2004)

I won't push DS into going to college. For me it was just expected that I would go, and as a result I never questioned it and just went to college, racked up debt, I now have a degree I've never used and don't intend to use. A little more time and a little less pressure may have resulted in me making some smarter choices.

In high school I worked for an artist, doing production work in his studio for catalog pieces while he made the "real" art pieces, and I loved it. I KNEW that's the kind of work that was for me, but instead of sticking with the mentorship I went to a four-year college at my parents' insistance and ended up with a relatively useless degree for what my life path has been. Oh well about that, but I will certainly not push DS into the same situation.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Well, as a college professor, it's going to be hard for me not to push my kids a bit toward college







. On the other hand, I've also seen many students in college who really would be better off having taken a different path - learned a trade, for example.

So, I hope that I'm open to my kids' needs. Ds' greatest desire right now at age 7 is to be a bus driver. I can't say I'm thrilled. I think he'd be bored silly, and he's got a very academic-y kind of mind. But I also don't say "oh no, you want to do something else". We talk about what it would be like to be a bus driver, what kind of training you need to get, how old you have to be, etc.

What I would never advocate is going deep into debt ($80,000 to $100,000) -- it's possible to get a 4 year degree at most state universities for a lot less than that!


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## aprons_and_acorns (Sep 28, 2004)

I just wanted to add that if DS wants to go to college I will support him fully in that! I am definitely not anti-college, but going there straight out of high school was a mistake for me.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

I see what you're saying, but I think a lot depends on the child and the situation.

If my son knows down to his bones that he wants to be a carpenter or plumber or something else where a degree is definitely not required, sure (although requirements to apprentice are getting stricter, plus apprenticing is further education too).

And if my son wants to take a year or two off between high school and higher education to work and save, I'm all for that too - I think focusing one's interests is a good idea.

But if he's ready for post-secondary education and not sure what he wants to do (like a lot of us), I would definitely encourage a degree. I agree with a PP that the knowledge and work you put in adds to your life. I do think the choice of degree matters.

Also, as far as the actual job market goes, I do think that unlike when your parents were working their ways up, a degree or at least certificate of some kind really is the minimum standard for a lot of things now. Your mum might not be able to make it into into her starting job, or to be promoted, on just a high school diploma under the rules of the road now.

So I think I will make those views clear to my child, and also still contribute to his education fund.

Debt can be crushing but there are ways to get around it. My grandparents helped fund my education and I believe my parents are thinking of something similar, although that is up to them and we don't count on it.









I sort of have a vague plan in mind that we'll put in two dollars for every dollar my son earns and saves during his high school years (summers, etc.) or something like that. Again it depends on him and his interests but I think that's one way to drive home to him that he needs to at least try to make wise choices around programmes, bursaries, working and studying hard, and minimizing debt.


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## armychicmkm (May 1, 2008)

I will be starting a college fund for DS as soon as possible. Most industries in order to be successful you do need some type of formal education or certification. Nowadays there are _expensive_ tests for everything from automotive to welding to accounting to etc, etc.

A bachelor's degree isn't the be all end all as many PP have said but I want the funding there for what could potentially be thousands of dollars in tests and certifications. I joined the military so that I could go to college without racking up major student loan debt. My parents pushed college but made it very clear they wouldn't pay for it. I don't want my son to be stuck between a rock and a hard place like that.

If he decides he doesn't want to use it, then DH and I will roll it over into a different type of account for us.


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

No. I will encourage it, but it won't be forced.

My mother insisted I go to college, paid for with scholarships and working nearly full time. I didn't finish and for the most part, wasted alot of time half-assing it. If I were to start now, I would definitely do much better. Of course, I still haven't decided what I want to be.

My fil and I have gone rounds about the boys going to college. I say they don't "have to" but we'll definitely encourage them to and help with the costs. He says they have to go, everyone in his family has all these degrees and so on (he's kind of forgotten dh never finished either). My fil also has a master's degree and is now driving a city bus, so I'm not sure what argument he thinks he has, unless its just the education factor.


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## Mamafreya (May 13, 2004)

I really wanted to go to college but my mom, for whatever reason, wasn't very supportive. She wasn't anti-college but I think maybe she didn't think it was something that was for me. I don't know. It's the one regret that I have looking back. I really wish that I had somehow found a way to go.

I also ended up "falling in love" with an anti-college, stick it to the man, live off the grid, type of boy. He helped me see what a waste college would've been







. Ahhhh, to be 18 again. lol.

I'm going to support my kids in whatever they want. I just want them to be happy. Hopefully they stay true to themselves and do what they feel is right for them.


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## ChetMC (Aug 27, 2005)

DH and I have joked that we will push one of our DDs to be a plumber and the other to be an electrician. DH is extremely good at DIY, but he has enough sense to know that his skills are limited when it comes to plumbing and electrical. If we had an electrician and a plumber in the family it would save us some serious cash. We'd like DS to be a stone mason. DH likes nice stone houses.

Of course, we'll let our kids follow whatever career path they choose, but we will make sure that they consider all possibilities. I don't want our kids to go to university because they think that's what people have to do to be smart or successful or whatever.

I've lectured at several universities, and worked with a lot of first year students. Universities are full of kids who, for various reasons, don't belong there. Also, taking on massive student loan debt while you putter around trying to find your direction in life is unwise.

There are serious labour shortages in the trades, and there is a lot of money to be made in those careers. Our electrician bought his house for cash.


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## emaye_to_2 (Jan 16, 2008)

Personally, I will push both of my children to go to and graduate from college. But I accept people have different opinions and priorities.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emaye_to_2* 
Personally, I will push both of my children to go to and graduate from college. But I accept people have different opinions and priorities.

Same here. I was the first kid on my mom and dad's side of the family to get a college degree. My relatives are all in dead end jobs and lives. I think college helped me to be a better person and a great mother.


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

Both of my parents had very strong expectations that all three of us (me and two older brothers) would earn at least a bachelor's degree. It was understood without it being said that they would have been quite disappointed if we had not. When I was in college I had no idea what I wanted to accomplish there and felt a ton of pressure to do well at something, and to be prepared to support myself well (well on their terms, not mine - must be a full time, corporate, professional level career track job) after finishing a 4 yr degree. When I struggled academically and it took me more than 4 yrs to finish and my father was angry about it the pressure was almost more than I could stand. I completed an engineering degree and worked in that field for eight years. The feeling of pressure to succeed and appear successful and fear of disappointing my parents or anyone else never went away. After eight years in that career I burned out. I was having panic attacks at work and went to a psychologist who advised me to get out of that career before I really had a nervous breakdown. I did leave that career, and it did help, but I think leaving that behind with the idea that I was letting everyone down, including my husband and myself, was one of the hardest things I have ever done. Now looking back I think I could have enjoyed that career if I had felt like it was mine and something I was doing for myself, on my own terms, but it never felt that way...it felt like something I was pushed into and had to prove myself in over and over again. I appreciate that my parents gave me the opportunity to earn a degree and not have student loans to pay afterward, but I think the pressure that came along with it was not helpful in the long run.

My DH earned a 4 yr degree and has been working full-time corporate jobs ever since. He is glad he has some job security and earns good money, but does not enjoy what he does and I think wishes he had been more creative about different ideas for careers when he was younger and it was easier to make changes and explore different options.

We both want to be able to help our kids with the opportunity to earn a degree if they want it, but don't want them to feel pushed into it or that it is something they should start just because they are 18 or some other random reason. If they choose a degree program it should be because there is a field they want to work in and the degree will help them reach their goals. If they choose to work in a field that does not require a degree, or have their own business that they don't need a degree for, that's fine. We want them to feel more freedom than we felt at that age, and see that there are many ways to earn a living. A degree is not a guarantee of a secure, well paying job with health and retirement benefits and a happy life. In fact neither of us was happy with the corporate 9-5 cubicle life and we will probably be very honest with them about that. I will probably encourage them to find a career that will not involve sitting in a cubicle 40-50 hrs a week.


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## kittymoose (Oct 9, 2008)

Well, at the risk of sounding tyrranical, I know deep down that I will push my kids to either go to college or learn a trade.

I don't think college has to be this big four year affair, pulling in tons of debt. My degree takes 18 months to complete, and after all is said and done (with three semesters of "experimentation" and an expensive foray into a private 4-year) I'll owe just under $6000. DP is going to school (the same one, its a tech college) for CNC operations. He'll also be done in 18 months, and he'll have the opportunity to get a pay raise from $9 an hour degreeless to $22 an hour.

The thing is, in my own experience, everyone I know that DOESN'T have some sort of degree are the ones that can't find jobs anywhere, or can't advance anywhere. These days, you need at least two years of college to pick up garbage (at least around here). My mother would love to go from essentially grunt to supervisor, but can't because she doesn't have a degree in anything.

So, no matter what, I'll try to prepare my kids for college or learning a trade as much as I can. Because those entry-level jobs that don't require a degree are extremely few and far between these days. I understand not "forcing" them into anything, but in order to survive these days, some sort of higher learning is required. At least in my experience and in my area. It could be different elsewhere.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

No.. I'm one of those parents who haven't even hinted at the possibility of her NOT going to college. She has two and a half years left of high school and then it's community college for a few years, then University.

I wish I could afford to send her to an out of state college (She wants to go to Seattle) but, I can't.

I don't know why.. I just feel like she should go, and deserves to go to college. So, I have never given her the option.


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## Sailor (Jun 13, 2006)

I won't push it. I dropped out of college, and have a small business of my own. My partner went to college, and his degree is useless as he also owns his own business and always has.

Both of us knew we'd NEVER work for anyone else other than ourselves. I figured out in college that since I'm my own boss, I don't need a college degree, lol.

Anyway, we're both debt free and absolutely love what we do.

We're going to encourage our child to pursue their passion. To find something they love, and to do that without settling. We'll let them know that earning money is something everyone has to do, and you spend a lot of time relatively speaking at this. So, if you're going to spend a lot of time doing something to earn money, it should be something that you love, and are passionate about. This way, you never actually "work." It's how it is for my partner and I - we don't work. We have fun, and earn money doing it.

What that passion will be for my child will be totally dependant on them. If they need college to do it - they'll go. If not, they won't. Neither of us will push any particular direction, other than going for the passion.

However, we're NOT going to support them financially indefinitely. If they skip college, then they'll need to get a job and either pay us rent or move out with a roommate. We're big believers in making your own way, and achieving one's passion independently.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Well unlike most of the other posters it seems, my eldest is a junior and he is planning on going to college. I went to college as an adult (worked my way through) and my ex his Dad did not go to college.

Having spent my early 20's as a single Mom working crap jobs with no degree, my life was changed for the good when I went to school. I now do work that is meaningful that I enjoy that while low paying (director of a non-profit) would not have been open to me without a degree. I admit the student loans do suck but if I had stayed stuck in dead end jobs that would have been worse.

That said, in my family education has been the tool that has allowed us to move up and I value it very much. However I would not be opposed or devastated if my son told me he wanted to learn a trade. Though as a member of the debate team who loves politics and is not too handy, I don't see trade school in the cards especially since he is prepping to take the SAT and ACT.

Sadly in today's world good paying jobs without some sort of schooling are harder to find, its not like 30 years ago when you could work at a plant and work your way up.

Shay


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## FondestBianca (May 9, 2008)

depends on the indivual. I was neither pushed nor discouraged from college and thats how I liked it. If I had gone to college right after high school I wouldn't have the wonderful life I do now... this is because I didn't want to go to college at that time and had no definate professional direction. Didn't think it a wise decision to waste my or my parents money. Now that I am matured and in a different place in my life I would certainly go back to school when time, money, and family life permits. Still don't know exactly what I'd go for though.

If my kids express interest in a particular area that college would benifit then yes, I'd encourage it. If my child showed true passion for something better persued outside of school then I would encourage that. Basically I plan to encourage whatever it is that I think is a good balance between what I think will be most benifical and productive on a personal level for them and what THEY think will be most benifical or personally fofilling them.

I know waaaaaaaaaaaay too many young people around my age who were basically forced into college and have made expensive changes in majors more than once and still don't know what they want to do, wasted their education and money (or parents money)by flunking out, dropped out and re-entered college more than once (and loosing class fees, book fees, and such in the process), getting a degree only to find out they hate the field once they finally start working in it (then end up working at a job or career they could have started 4-8 years prior if their parents hadn't forced them to pick something to go to college for at age 17), and dropping out early and having no way to pay back the financial aid.


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## Parker'smommy (Sep 12, 2002)

I will encourage my kids to go to college because I found it to be very valuable. I didn't rack up a ton of debt and it took me 4 years.

My mom was also very insistent that I go. BUT...she said if I wanted to not use the degree afterwards, that would be fine too. She just wanted me to always ( especially as a woman) have a degree. I find it empowering to have a degree under my belt. I could lose everything- my husband, my house, my material things, but NO ONE can take my education and degree away from me. I'll always have it...if I need it.

I won't be paying for school either. THey can live with us, for free, but they will have to pay for school. THey'll figure it out.

And am I using my degree today? To an extent, yes. I'm a sahm, but I learned a lot of life lessons in college. I use them everyday. I was a teacher before ds, and it was a great experience and helped me prepare for motherhood in so many ways. I think I will return to the classroom, one day.


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## Lisa85 (May 22, 2006)

I can't say because my dd's are only 3 and nearly 2. It will 100% depend on their personalities. I wish somebody would have told me it was ok to not go to college right after high school. I felt pressured to go to school immediately after hs when really I would have been better off taking a 2-3 year break to "deschool". I was sick and tired of hs by the time I graduated, but with the pressure of needing to go immediately "or else you'll never want to go back" or "it's SO hard to go back once you've been out for awhile" I took the easy way out and went to trade school for Cosmetology. I hated it. I still love doing hair, but I absolutely hated dealing with the cattiness that is a 99% female business, the picky customers who think you know nothing when in reality _they_ are the ones that know 0 about how to cut their hair, I could go on and on.

Now I have two kids and dh is on the verge of a promotion that will allow us to be a much more comfortable 1 income family, I'm hesitant to go back to school. I do not *want* to be a WOHM, but in this economy and *very* tight budget, I would like to return work. It would take me 4 years to graduate, at minimum, and by then I will hopefully not need to work. So we're kinda stuck. In 4 years they'll also be in school full time making working a job without a degree much more profitable since I won't have to pay for 2 FT daycare tuitions. If I could go back in time, I would have taken 2 or so years off to get tired of working a lower paying job, really determine what I love and could aslo make enough money to be worth it with a reasonable amt of debt and then get my masters. As a friend of mine says "You need a bachelor's to get a job, and masters to make any money". I'd work full time til we decided to have kids, take a year or two off after each one of them and return to part time work and eventually 3/4 time work after they're all in school.

I hope to not push my kids in any one direction and hope that I've raised them well enough to make such important decisions on their own. If they're the school-y type that wants to ladder climb, I'd encourage college. If they turn out to be the ones that are satisfied with a median income with not a lot of extras, and don't want to go the school route, I'd encourage trade school or working their way up in an interesting field.


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## Carlin (Oct 14, 2006)

I won't push my kids to go to University but I will try to make sure they have that opportunity if they want it. That will include letting them live at home while going to school, and being able to offer some financial support - although with the rate that tuition is rising at, I doubt we'll be able to cover the whole thing.

If they'd rather go into a trade or something I would be fine with that, but I would encourage some sort of further education beyond high school. I think even if you don't work in the field you study, it opens more doors than it closes.


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## Amila (Apr 4, 2006)

Thanks for the replies...yes like many others I will definitely present the opportunity, and will be very supportive if my children decide they want to go to college. I won't, however, be disappointed if they choose a different path.

My college years weren't useless...I did learn a lot, and that BA hanging on my wall has no expiration date. I think a lot also depends on your major.

I actually loved school and miss it, and sometimes think of getting my masters...then I think that I could probably just be as successful doing somehting that doesn't require me to go back to school and pay even more student loans...


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## lafemmedesfemmes (Nov 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Carlin* 
I won't push my kids to go to University but I will try to make sure they have that opportunity if they want it. That will include letting them live at home while going to school, and being able to offer some financial support - although with the rate that tuition is rising at, I doubt we'll be able to cover the whole thing.

If they'd rather go into a trade or something I would be fine with that, but I would encourage some sort of further education beyond high school. I think even if you don't work in the field you study, it opens more doors than it closes.

this is how i feel about it, too. i would heavily encourage education beyond high school, and provide as much help as i can, but i would not push a 4-year degree as the be all and end all-- that type of schooling might be totally wasted on my particular kids' goals and personalities.

christina


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## Violet2 (Apr 26, 2007)

I do think a college degree is helpful. It allows me to earn $21 and hour part-time as a tutor. I could not earn that much without it. I also know that the glass ceiling would've been that much thicker for me without one.

I just think about that 60 minutes profile of the Ohio town where DHL closed its airport. One woman started at 19 with them and worked her way up to mgmt. Now she's out of a job, no degree, she will struggle to make as much money as she was at DHL primarily due to the lack of degree. This is why DH is in college now.

That being said, if I had a child who seemed strongly inclined toward a solid trade, I would support schooling and certification for that in lieu of college. To me, those fields just as good as college.

In addition, I plan to emphasize small business and original thinking as I didn't enjoy working as a cog in the corporate machine.

However, I also see a lot of jobs from my previous employer posted with simply H.S. as required education. I find that strange. These are supervisory positions. So I don't know what that means with regards to the benefits of a college education.

V


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## Soul-O (Mar 14, 2004)

:

I'll voice what I believe to be an unpopular opinion around MDC... I would like my DS's to go into the military if they do not choose to go to college right away. The military offers a chance to earn money for college, learn a trade, and gain life skills and income. DS1 is academically inclined as well as Gifted, so I definitely see a 4 year university in his future. DS2 is more of a hands-on guy with strong mechanical gifts. He has a serious interest in aircraft, so I could see him learning to fly helicopters in the Army or Navy, then pursuing this career post-military as well. If none of my children want to go to college or enter the military, I would probably be disappointed (especially considering that their fathers and I have Master's Degrees); however, as long as they lead productive, happy lives, I will feel that I have done them well as a parent.


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## HarperRose (Feb 22, 2007)

I won't encourage or discourage it. If they want to go, we will help them find a way to make it happen. If they don't, then we'll help them find some other option.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Nope. My kids are expected to go to college. They are both bright enough and capable enough. If they wanted to get other, specialized training instead of college, that would be OK, but I'd really prefer they get their BA/BS first.

I want my dds to be able to be strong, self-supporting women, and overall, one is statistically more likely to earn a good income if you have a four year degree. Certainly it doesn't work for some people, and some folks manage fine without it, but I'd like to give my daughters the opportunity.


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

I am not pushing my kids toward college at all.

I was always expected to go, never really considered any other option, and HATED it when I got there. I felt like I was putting the life I wanted (starting a family) on hold because my mom demanded I stay in school . . . I really didn't get anything out of it, got through it as quickly as I could, did minimal work (didn't buy books or anything after a few semesters and still got high marks), etc. It was a HUGE waste of time and money.

My kids will know that college is an option and that we will help them with it if they want to go . . . but they will also know that it's not the ONLY option and that they do not have to go immediately after high school if they don't know what they want to study yet or if they have other things they would prefer to do first.


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

Warning: This got long. Sorry. Don't read if you aren't interested







.

First, let me share an interesting blog entry by my dad that is along these lines. It's called "What To Learn in College." As for the question at hand, count me in among those who say, "it depends." Our background:

*Me:* 
My mother graduated from high school but does not have a college degree (though over the years she has taken courses at different times). She is *brilliant,* _extremely_ well-read, and very thoroughly self-educated. She keeps up with the best of 'em when it comes to intellectual pursuits. She had my sister at 19, but I am unclear if that had anything to do with the fact that she does not have a college degree.

Before my birth my mom did a variety of jobs, including working at a bakery and teaching in a Montessori school. By the time I arrived (my parent's third child), my mom was a stay-at-home mom. When my younger brother and I were around elementary school age, my mom began working outside the home again. She worked various retail, office, and other jobs, some for money and some as trade for the dance classes we took. She also always did additional work at home as a seamstress.

She did talk about going to college for a while, and at one time I remember she seemed particularly interested in studying children's literature and becoming a school librarian, but she never pursued that more than part-time and eventually we all sucked up the college money. One thing my mother has always been is an artist. As we got older, my mom's "free time" became enough to give her more time to devote to her art.

Over time, she slowly, slowly phased out her other work (but the other work she did do was always retail in art-supply type stores as well as classes she taught in these stores), and focused more and more on her art. She is now "more or less" a full-time artist and author (www.sarahfishburn.com). She has succesfully co-owned an art supply shop, though she sold her interests in the business not too long ago. She does continue to teach art classes in addition to creating.

My father did not graduate from high school, but he did graduate from college (in fact, he did this while my oldest sister was just a wee one). When we were kids, he worked and went to school and parented us all at the same time and got at least one if not more master level degrees. I don't remember exactly how it goes, but my dad tells a great story about how the college at one point *forced* him to graduate because he had all the requirements to graduate...he hadn't declared a major in all that time and didn't want to, so they looked at the courses he'd taken and decided his degree would be in mathematics. Originally he had studied music, but his parents believed that would lead him nowhere and pressured him endlessly into more "lucrative" studies.

I think my father is a genius...he is incredibly bright. I know his education has impacted his thinking, but I'm not sure to what extent it has impacted his vocation. It is very clear to me that his thinking is shaped in part by being very well-read and non-college-educated on a range of topics in addition to his college-education (for example, having taken various workshops and classes on a variety of topics over the years).

My dad became a software engineer in the early days of the consumer electronics/computer industry. I suspect in those days it was his mathematical genius that contributed to his success. He worked as a software engineer for the largest portion of my childhood, later went into management. He was a successful manager, but also found it very stressful. I don't know if this is the reason, but I understand that sometime in recent years, he went to work in intellectual trade, for lack of a better way to put it.

I'm really not clear on what he does, but as I understand it, he basically consults with people and organizations on complex problems that require complex logical analysis. The problems are varied. They range from "when research data doesn't add up" to systems analysis in business organizations to civic dilemmas in government.

Growing up, I didn't receive a singular message about education. My mother homeschooled two of my siblings for part of their school years, and she was honest with us that she valued education but that she felt there were many large flaws in the education system in our country and that she couldn't wholeheartedly support "schools" per se. She had a great relationship with teachers and administrators in our schools who actually seemed to be providing a thoughtful education. She made a beef with those who didn't, and I know that because she was a young, poor mom, that she raised eyebrows among those who were unimpressed with her smart and strategic attacks on those aspects of school that undermined our education. On rare occassion, homework would be sent home that she considered to have little educational value, and she would do that type of homework for us if requested and give us something more educational to do in its place (example: crossword puzzles for anything other than perhaps spelling).

That said, she was an avid volunteer in our schools-- she tutored advanced math students for several years, for example, and organized book orders through Scholastic as another example-- and as a voter, she always, always voted in favor of more money for schools.

My dad was more silent on his position regarding schools, but it was clear he valued education in whatever form. He read outloud to us starting from infancy, rarely children's books, and this continued at least through elementary school. Intellectual curiosity and engagement with the world were highly valued. Debates at the dinner table were encouraged to sharpen our critical thinking skills. When I came to my dad at seven years old with a drawn-out complaint about lack of sidewalk maintenance outside the duplex we were renting (something that was impacting my ability to skateboard outside our home), he sent me straight to the city council figuring either they or I (or both) would get a decent education from me advocating for my issue.

If anyone didn't know the definition of a word, he got out this massive two volume dictionary he had and read the definition aloud to everyone, clearly learning something himself from the experience even if he knew the word's definition. Not knowing something was never considered a deficit in my family, but a lack of interest in learning was certainly seen as tragic.

When it came to college, I don't recall pressure either way. I had dreamed of Harvard in my late elementary school years, and had always expressed some degree of interest in college, so perhaps my family just figured I'd go. Both of my older sisters went straight to college after high school in the traditional fashion. I moved out of my parents home at 16, refused to take my SATs due to horrible test anxiety, graduated from high school a semester early with a GPA that would have been a 4.0/4.0 had it not been for an unkind gym teacher, and then took a year and a half "off" (if you call working three jobs "off") without any commitments regarding college or not.

Then I got restless and developed an interest I wanted to pursue through a degree. Because I didn't have an SAT score, I didn't even bother to apply for the university from which I intended to graduate. Instead, I entered into a state university as a non-matriculating student, and also took some courses at a community college to save money. When I had enough credits to prove my abilities as a student, I applied at my chosen university, and got in.

I graduated college with a 4.0/4.0. My overall impression of my university experience was that it was at times a fun intellectual exercise, but that the quality of the education was not up to my standards and I felt largely under-challenged. I did, however, take responsibility during my time as a college student to make it as challenging for myself as I could, even when the professors did not challenge us with their class materials...and I got very annoyed with the many "traditional" students who, as far as I could tell, expected to be "fed" and just rolled their eyes at professors who weren't up to par. Perhaps because I was working and using scholarships for much/most of my funding, I found this especially irritating. I was glad to finally be done.

I also have recently been diagnosed with a disorder that impacts memory, and remember nothing that I learned from college except those things that I learned well enough to integrate and incorporate into my overall world view and/or regular practices. I could not likely go back into the field I studied because I don't recall enough. Heck, I have trouble recalling things I learned a couple weeks ago at a conference.

After graduating from college, I moved to a state where I intended to go to medical school (to establish residency) and spent a good portion of a year trying to find jobs in my field to no avail. During the second portion of that year I widened my search for jobs to include those only very indirectly related to my field, and silmultaneously I began to receive a call into ministry that scared the dickens out of me (since it was not at all what I had planned).

In a convergence of factors that made everything play out just so, I ended up in a position of ministry and studying to do that work at the same time, but not through "traditional" means of advanced education (seminary). I am not sure if I will return to my interest in medicine at some point in my life, but I believe what I am doing now-- and have been doing for most of my adult life-- is what I am supposed to be doing at this time.
*My dw:* 
My dw's parents are the age of my grandparents (she is the youngest of seven with a large age gap between her and the siblings ahead of her). I'm not sure how far along her parents got in their public education. Neither graduated from college.

dw's mother lived with her parents until she married, at which time she promptly became a "homemaker" as they call it. I don't believe she has ever had a job outside the home, though she may have done odd jobs and such over the years.

dw's father eventually came to work for a printing company. Research shows that this is no longer the climate for today's workers, but at the time loyalty to one's company was seen as the ideal and was a huge factor in career success. Many people "made their way up the ladder to success," as my dw's dad did. After years of heavy physical labor, he eventually became a supervisor. He worked for the same company for over 50 years, and left only when he was forced to retire because of an on-the-job injury.

Neither of dw's parents are readers. They don't have much in their home as far as books are concerned, though they have a Bible. They are self-educated in a narrow range of topics, and life educated in a few more. They think highly of educated people, but didn't impart education as a value in any concrete way while my dw was a kid. In fact, dw missed a lot of foundational concepts over the years because she had anxiety issues and dw's mother resolved it by letting her stay home from school. She missed many a school day to go to the mall with her mother.

When it came to college, there was some pressure to go. dw was not ready. She decided to study graphic design as the sister closest to her in age did, but she had no vocational interests in particular (still is pretty unfocused in that arena). For a number of reasons, including emotional trauma related to "coming out," she did very poorly and wasted a lot of her parents hard-earned money trying to make it work at school when she wasn't ready to put in the effort it would take to get something out of the experience. Eventually, she dropped out.

dw and I met when dw was in her very early twenties. As I was attending college at the time, dw joined me in taking some classes at the community college. She did very well, and got a lot out of it, but still didn't feel like she knew what she wanted to do with her life. She also did not enjoy school in the least, and found it continued to provoke anxiety in her, and decided not to pursue any particular degree for fear of commiting to school.

We eventually decided together that dw should be a stay-at-home mom, but she decided first that she would teach preschool for a while. For that, she did a lot of course work/training over time, but decided not to get a degree in early childhood, for the reasons stated above regarding her anxiety about commiting to school. She worked as a professional preshool teacher for a number of years, and was several times asked to take a supervisory position but refused in most cases due to her great dislike of having to tell people what to do.

Just last year she finally transitioned to being a stay-at-home mom, mainly because our situation was such that she *couldn't* work. She does need to begin working part-time again for financial reasons, and she feels she needs this to be "adult time" but also not heavy-thinking time. She's been looking into bartending classes and thinks that might be a fun job. She also remembers fondly her days of working in a parking garage while we were attending school together, and would love something like that. She doesn't feel she needs a "career" to be fulfilled. That's just not her.
*Our family:*
When we learned early on in his infancy that our son had some chance of developmental delays that might even prevent his ever living independently, we had a reality check about our expectations of who our children would be. I've since developed a deep belief that I am not the one who gets to determine what is a "quality life" for my children.

I try my best to encourage my children's intellectual development the way my family did mine. I communicate that I value education, in many forms not limited to but not excluding schooling. We currently Montessori homeschool in combination with a one day weekly Montessori program for otherwise homeschooled children. FondestBianca, above, describes my general attitudes about college pretty well:

Quote:



If my kids express interest in a particular area that college would benifit then yes, I'd encourage it. If my child showed true passion for something better persued outside of school then I would encourage that. Basically I plan to encourage whatever it is that I think is a good balance between what I think will be most benifical and productive on a personal level for them and what THEY think will be most benifical or personally fulfilling them.


At this point, I just want my kids to be happy, whatever their abilities turn out to be, and whatever life paths they choose to take.

I suspect that whatever they do at 20 will be different than what they do at 30, and that life will be a journey for them as much as it is for me.

I spent the last couple of years watching my SIL struggle with my nephew over this stuff. He is the oldest of her children, and she did expect him to go to college. I believe he may be mildly developmentally delayed, and given what I have seen in terms of his academic work, I'm a little surprised he got in somewhere. He had a very hard time in his first year, really struggled through it like my dw did in her first year, and quit at the end of the year. He's now taking a much lighter load at a community college and working toward a career in personal fitness training. His internships more than anything have been invaluable for him. One question I have is, is everybody cut out for college? Another question is whether college should be as heavily weighted as it is? Currently a four-year degree doesn't do as much as it did ten or twenty years ago. Are there other ways to support vocational paths?


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## Right of Passage (Jul 25, 2007)

I'll be honest with my kids, unless they want to pursue a career the rquires a degree a typical 4 year college degree won't do much. I'd rather seem them go to vocational school(like mentioned, be a plumber, mechanic, electrictian, mechanic, etc). I don't want my LOs to feel they must go to college like DH did ending up with a lot of debt, and no degree to show for it.


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## Harmon-knee (Jan 31, 2009)

I went to college after high school and had no idea what I wanted to do, so I dropped out. So no, I won't push my kids to go.


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## Nolamom (Jan 29, 2008)

I'm definately pushing for college, or at the least some type of trade certificate or license. My parents pushed me. I didn't want to go, and ended up going part time and finishing in 6 years. I basically went solely not to disappoint them. However, now I "see the light". I make more in a part time job with full benefits than my friends with no degree make full time. I am challenged at, and enjoy, my job. I have time to spend with my family and can still afford to make ends meet.
For those without the time or motivation to run a business, a college degree can open many doors. I hope my kids have one to fall back on if other loftier plans don't work out.

ETA: There are other options than graduating with super high debt, too. There are many state and federal programs available now for students.


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## Daphneduck (Jan 22, 2009)

I will strongly encourage it, maybe to the point of pushing it. College has given me options that I would have never had otherwise. I took it seriously and had a great college experience. I also had a great job and a much easier life because of my education. I will pay for my childrens education, just as my parents paid for mine.
That being said, the smartest, most well read person that I know, has an 8th grade education. He is in his late sixties and dropped out of school to help support his family. He has also done well finacially, so I know it's possible to be successful despite a lack of formal education, but there is no doubt it's more difficult.
My husbands brother joined the Marines out of high school, then went to work in a factory for seven years. He lives in a relativly small town and was laid off from his factory job a few months ago. He left there with no severance package, and because he earned only about $13.50 an hour, he has no savings. Now he wants to go back to school, but has a family and bills, and it is going to be a struggle for him.
People that go to college and earn a degree, on average earn more money, and that can make life easier, but I know that it isn't for everyone. If one of my children chooses not to go, I will still respect them and try my best to help them on their chosen path, but it will be a worry and a disapointment.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

My Father was a DC and my mom a housewife with a high school education.

I went to college full time and worked full time. I finished in four years. I paid rent at home, took care of my car, bought and sewed my own clothes, and paid for my own schooling. I babysat children, babysat senior citizens, babysat handicapped people, did dishes, cleaned houses, and did yard work.

When I graduated, I had no debt, but no one would pay me more than minimum wage. I finished my teaching credential twenty years later. College was a total waste of time. I would rather have stayed working in the city library putting books away.

I have NOT guide my children to go to college. This is what I did:

DD: completed HS by exam. Finished two years of college. Has an AA. She is the head server and trainer at one of the finest restaurants in Los Angeles.

DS1: completed HS by exam. Finished two years of college, has an AA. He is a career member of the USCG.

DS2: completed HS by exam, but stayed to compete in sports. Went to trade school and paid off his student loans in a year. Makes more $ than I do as a teacher. He is working to get his MS in enginneering degree.

DS3: has completed HS by exam and is working on his AA.

I would not push my children to go to college. The money people put out for college is a farce. The same money can go into opening a franchise (7-11), a small business as a beauty parlor, a down payment on a house, or getting a trade.

Another thing: many courses in college can be taken by exam. Go to the head of the department to request taking the test so that you can save time and get through earlier. You do have to pay and enroll in the class, but you simply finish a few months early. I had to take the MSAT to finish my credential; it gives the test taker the same as a BA in Liberal Arts. Also, one can take classes on-line now.


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## ananas (Jun 6, 2006)

I honestly won't even _encourage_ my kids to go to college. If they want to, fine, but they won't be encouraged or discouraged. I really don't see how, in the majority of people's lives, college made that much difference.


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## Carlin (Oct 14, 2006)

My DH is one of the smartest people I've ever met. He's also a great self motivated learner. He's a dual ticket tradesman (electrician, instrumentation), makes a good living, and is usually highly valued as an employee by his immediate supervisors. So he's done fine for himself without a college education.

However as he gets older and more experienced, his main interest is moving towards the design end of things, but regardless of his experience and ability, he has serious difficulties getting a design job because he does not have a college degree. He ends up following the directions of some engineer with 1/2 his brains and 1/8 his experience. So the lack of a college degree is limiting his ability to do what he wants to do. I'd rather our kids don't face the same issues.

Now, as I said before, I'll never push my kids to go to University if they don't want to. I think that often leads to a waste of everyone's time, energy, and money, but I'm going to make d*mn sure that finances or circumstances don't dictate that they miss the opportunity if they want it.

As an aside, I graduated in 4 years with 0 debt. My parents helped, I lived at home and went to our local University, but I also worked 1 to 3 jobs at a time. It can be done.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

Ds is only 1, but I do not forsee myself making a four year degree out to be the only option. I am thinking more along the lines of making a plan. If he wants to be a doctor, great, we'll plan on college and then med school. If he wants to be an artist or a missionary, great, but I will encourage him to get some kind of "quickie" certificate in a trade that he can at least tolerate, so that he has something to put meat between his teeth while he pursues his dreams.

I don't expect him to become a millionaire. My father raised our family on a salary of 15K at times, and we were never lacking. I would like ds to be able to earn more than that, of course, so that he can live with some breathing room financially, but I am not going to insist that he become a 9-5 corporate type person if that's not what he wants.


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## KaliShanti (Mar 23, 2008)

I just want my kids to be happy productive citizens who love God. There are mant colleges that I hope they won't want to go to. If they want to go to college, though, I am going to strongly encourage them to pay for it as they go or up front; no debt. I HATE debt so they are going to grow up learning about wise financial decisions and hopefully will follow them.


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## rockycrop (Jul 31, 2007)

I won't encourage or discourage, I'll let it be one of many options to choose from.

Like many previous posters I was expected to go to college and get my degree. I waited a bit after graduating high school and went to community college for a year. Then I enrolled in a state university and changed my major 3 times. I finally settled on art history so I could just BE DONE with it.

After graduating I spent several excruciating months applying for jobs. Finally I was offered one-as a silverware roller in a nice restaurant. That pretty much solidified in my mind what a waste the past 5 years and thousands of dollars of my parents money had been. I was a college graduate rolling up silverware into napkins all night long.

After that job, I got a job in a department store where my degree was also meaningless. The store manager had only a high school degree, as did even some of his bosses. Everyone in that company, even the sons of the owners, had to start at the bottom and work their way up.
(Now I'm a SAHM-yay!)

I think there is so much knowledge to be learned outside of academia. The most successful people I know are people that DO. These are mostly artists, musicians, writers, creative thinker types, but I can't imagine a better education than just grinding and doing what you love.

Of course if my kids turn out to be astrophysicists or what have you, then college is probably the way to go! I think you really need to have a clear cut vision of what you want out of college before you go, otherwise it could be a huge waste of time. And you can always go to school later in life.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

I will not push them toward collage nor will I encourage them to go. They will know that they can go if they want and it will be an option.

Dh had 2 years of collage didnt do a thing for him. I had not intention of ever setting foot in a school again after I graduated from HS.

There is no way we can pay for the kids to go so they will either have to work while going to pay their way or will have to get loans to pay it off later.


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## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

Nope. In fact, unless they know exactly what they want to do & what they need to take to get to that goal, I plan on discouraging college/university. I went after 2 years out of high school, because I had nothing better to do. My sister went straight out of high school. We both have BA degrees. Neither of us have the degree we started out going for (Education). Neither of us has ever had a job related to our degrees (English for me & Psychology for her). In fact, I haven't been able to get a job at all since I graduated over 10 years ago. I can't physically do a McJob and even with my degree, that's about the only place that would hire me. I have over 50k in student loan debts hanging over my head, even with my parents helping out, because I couldn't live at home so I had living expenses plus school expenses. I don't know if I'll ever be able to get work or to pay it off. It was a complete waste of time & money. If I'd had a real goal and a plan, it would have been different, I'm sure, but I didn't. And because of all the debt, even if there were something I wanted that needed a degree, I couldn't do it because I've maxed out on loans.


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## Tangled Hill (Jun 6, 2008)

I just present it as a tool. It may be one that will help him in his future endeavors, and that's cool. If it won't, though, it would be silly to spend all that money and time pursuing a degree. No biggie, either way.

I'll try to help him as much as I can, whatever he chooses to do. Right now, his main career interest is voice acting. We've got a couple of helpful books stashed away for his upcoming birthday.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I hope my children go to college or university but I am not going to pressure them. You cannot get any kind of job except minimum wage and sometimes not even then, without post secondary education in this area.

We have RESPs for our children. We feel like it is our duty to pay for their post secondary education. We have student loan debts and feel it is a crappy way to start out your adult life, and since post secondary is necessary here, we want to do what we can.


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## MadameXCupcake (Dec 14, 2007)

Another who will leave it as an option but not force or really encourage.

DH is a high school drop out[hard times in foster care] and provides for us at 40k-50k a yr. He is planning on getting his GED and becoming an electrician in the near future since he has the experience at his current job to do this.

I graduated high school with a 3.5GPA, a year early, a scholarship that paid 75% of my college, and enough credits for another student to graduate since I took extra classes online. I wanted a year off and my mom wanted me to go right away and I ended up having ONE month off and the college starting for summer right after I graduated high school, it sucked. At first I went, then it got to the point I would nap in the car when I should have been at classes. I think I probably would have finished if I had gotten my year off that I wanted but then I wouldn't have my DD and I wouldn't be a SAHM. I'm only 21[same as DH] so we have plenty of time to advance if we want.

With only graduating high school I had a job at 18 where I made 60k a year easy plus room for advancement, it even had perks like gym membership! Right now I am just starting a WAHM job as a manager for a grassfed beef company that will grow and eventually I'll run a CSA and raw dairy sales.

Sorry that was so long, but as you can see I dont think a degree is necessary unless you really want a job where you need one. [doctor, etc]


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## lurve (May 5, 2006)

i will not push my children to go to college. we were all pushed to go and we all went. (my parents are both doctors, my sister and i are both lawyers. FORMAL education has been a very high priority in my life). My brother was never meant for college. it just wasn't for him, but he did it to please my parents. he couldn't hack it and killed himself during his first semester.
after myself being so educated and learning more about unschooling, i am seeing formal education as more of a business (and i was in-house counsel at a major university, so i have seen the business side). i have found that i can find my own resources to teach myself what i really want to learn. i want to teach my children to find their own resources. if they want to go to college, fine. if not, fine. i just want them to be happy and proud of themselves.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

MadameXCupcake, you have reminded me of another idea:

I think it is a mistake to go straight from high school to college. Why not spend a year traveling, somewhere, anywhere, so that a young person can get out and see the REAL world? Or go live in another part of the US and work for a year?

I think the problem with many college professors is that they have never lived or worked outside the classroom/school paradigm. This makes for a person who has is over "educated", but has no practical knowledge of the world.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I haven't read much past the OP.

I won't push it. I totally support my kid if they want to go, and we'll help out whatever way we can. When ds1 is course-planning, we always look at the basic university requirements around here, to make sure that he's at least _able_ to do post-secondary if he wants to.

My parents never pushed us to go to college. There was a lot of crap going on when we were in our teens, and to make a long story short, my mom was exhausted by the time she managed to get me through to graduation from _high school_. My siblings both dropped out. Mom sure didn't have the energy to push us to go to college or university (although she got her degree the year before I finished high school). My emotional state and view of formal education at that time were such that I would have probably killed myself if I'd felt pressured to put up with 4-5 more years of that crap.

I still can't imagine ever going back, but ds1 is a very different kind of person than I am. I think he'd thrive in at a post-secondary institution. I just hope he can figure out what he wants to do with his life. He'll be the first in my family who's had a clue if he does, though. We all just drift into stuff. I used to think I'd go back in my mid-30s, once I had all my babies...but my reproductive life didn't play along. I doubt I'll bother now. Earning a degree has absolutely no appeal.

DH's parents have really pushed university. His dad was still on his case about finishing his degree when dh was here without even having his permanent residence. We were both off work (I was getting my government maternity leave benefit for dd) and dh didn't even have legal status in this country, and my FIL brought up his degree every time they talked. They've pushed it for all of their sons. DH is the oldest. The next son down is currently back at school and planning to get his degree. He's 26, and this is his second year. I doubt dh will finish his, and his youngest brother (24.5) shows no interest in even starting. Pushing hasn't accomplished anything there.

DS1 will probably go. I have no idea yet about dd or ds2, let alone baby-under-construction. We'll just see what happens, I guess.


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## Getz (May 22, 2005)

I am glad my parents expected me to go to college. I benefitted greatly from my experience and my degree (accounting). My DH really regrets not going to college, his parents never encouraged him. He does well in his career (supports a family of 4), but has come up against road blocks because of his lack of degree. He is currently enrolled in college and very much wants to earn his BA.

My kids will be strongly encouraged to go to college. But, I am more concerned about them being able to financially support themselves. Whether that be college, trade school, etc.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Getz* 
I am glad my parents expected me to go to college. I benefitted greatly from my experience and my degree (accounting). My DH really regrets not going to college, his parents never encouraged him. He does well in his career (supports a family of 4), but has come up against road blocks because of his lack of degree. He is currently enrolled in college and very much wants to earn his BA.

There's a lot of truth to this. I've worked in accounting for years (it was at least part of every job I did from '88 to '03). I've met multiple people who have their degrees and certifications and can't think their way out of a paper bag. It astonishes me how many people have accounting degrees, but can't do basic bookkeeping or simple arithmetic. However, any number of those people made double what I did, and could well be making even more than that now.

It occasionally really makes me mad. Then, I think about the agony of going through four more years of school, and all the crap associated with it, and I'll take the "living on half as much" option - with a smile.


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## MCR (Nov 20, 2001)

I would not encourage my kids to go to college unless they already had a plan on where they were going with the education. It's too darn expensive to wander about and have fun partying.
Ds#1 is in University right now, junior year, he had a clear plan from senior year where he wanted to go with his education, and we fully support him.
Ds 2 is in High school and has already said what he wants, but I'm not holding my breath as he'll flip flop about before he decides in senior year I'm pretty sure. This year he wants to go to University in UK to live at grandmas, holey cow thats expensive and no financial aid, so I'll need to work full time for that one.
Dd hasn't started K yet so she has time








We did however talk to both boys and let them know that after high school they did have to have a plan, either college with a goal or trade school for a trade, but working at the jackpot foodmart wasn't going to pay their bills and afford them any apartment or house to live in. They needed to become independent from us eventually, Dh and I are pretty poor ourselves and can't support them forever, we have a retirement to provide for.
Dh went to trade school and is a union worker it's hard physical work the boys see how tired he can be.
I'm an LVN not exactly big bucks, and I'm home with Dd I'm looking to go back next fall (we'll see)


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Devaskyla* 
Nope. In fact, unless they know exactly what they want to do & what they need to take to get to that goal, I plan on discouraging college/university.









: DH never stepped foot in a college or university and supports us very nicely. It's not the be all end all some make it out to be.


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## Laurel (Jan 30, 2002)

I will strongly encourage my children to go to college or a trade school. Part of it is for financial and career stability and success (I know that is never guaranteed, but it is more likely). But the biggest thing is that I had such a fabulous university experience. It had such a profound effect on who I am today, my self-confidence, my overall knowledge, etc.

I changed majors several times and never saw it as a waste of money (and luckily my parents didn't either). I don't think many people can know exactly what they want to do until they have the chance to explore several different careers, and college gave me that chance. I gained a lot from each major that I tried.

I know everyone is not cut out for college, and if I had a child in that situation, I would encourage them to figure out what it was that they _did_ love and get as much appropriate training in their field of interest.

If I am able, I would like to help them pay for their education. My parents did that for me, and my in-laws did it for dh. We were both able to graduate with bachelors' and masters' degrees with no debt whatsoever with parental help, part and full-time jobs, and scholarships/assistantships.


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## St. Margaret (May 19, 2006)

So much of it will depend on who my children grow up to be. If DD is anything like DH and I (and she seems to be very much so, so far), she would LOVE college. College was the beginning of so many important parts of my life; I learned so much about the world and literature and people there. I want my kids to have good "real life" experiences, too, but we tend to thrive on "the life of the mind" and all that in my family, and college would bring regular access to all that DD could be craving. Whether it's access to profs teaching highly technical subjects or the chance to be surrounded with people all reading and discussing certain texts, it could be just what she needs as she develops her broader sense of the world and herself and her skills.

That said, I think I've grown a lot since college and I feel "smarter" now than I was then. So college later in life might be good, too. I just think it's easier to go and have that experience and then move on with whatever other learning you'll do.

If DD wants to become an actress, she can do that through school or just working. If she wants to be a chef, great, we'll help with culinary school. If she's into something she can just go and do, fine, as long as she's got a plan, I'll support her. I want college to be her CHOICE and for her to think about it, but I just think it's the most likely one to go with. Just being able to take a BA or BS and go teach in some places or get a wide variety of jobs--- it opens a lot of doors.


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## Joyster (Oct 26, 2007)

We have RESPs (college funds) for our kids. Plus my inlaws want to put 20K a piece for them for post secondary. It's funny, I just had a discussion with several of my mom friends about our post secondary education and whether we use it or not. None of us are in the fields of our post secondary education. My DH who is very successful at what he does has a journalism degree. I think it might have helped his public speaking abilities, but DH has always been gifted in that regard. Otherwise he doesn't use his degree at all, funny now, considering he works for a huge publishing company.

I think it would be good for my kids to have something they can fall back on, but I don't know if pushing them in any given direction is a good thing. They won't be allowed to loaf around one way or another under this roof, but considering now I'm 30 and have no ideal what to do when my kids are at an age where I can go back, I think I'd be sympathetic to then not being sure what to do.


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## Kappa (Oct 15, 2007)

If they do not have any idea what they want to do, I will encourage them to take a year off to de-compress after high school. There's no rush, a career path is a big commitment. There's also several ways to get from point A to point B, we may need extra time to explore all of our options.


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## hollycat (Aug 13, 2008)

i have to say, both "im gonna push" and "im NOT gonna push" are statements about PARENTS not kids.

so much parenting ideas i read here are about peoples ideas about themselves - what they hated as kids, loved as kids, resented about their childhood..... which is interesting. they are not about their specific children at all.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hollycat* 
i have to say, both "im gonna push" and "im NOT gonna push" are statements about PARENTS not kids.

so much parenting ideas i read here are about peoples ideas about themselves - what they hated as kids, loved as kids, resented about their childhood..... which is interesting. they are not about their specific children at all.

FWIW, I have no real feeling about whether my mom should have pushed me more, or whether it was better the way it was. I think it would have been a mistake, because of my specific feelings about formal education, but I don't think that has anything to do with it. I don't think it's right to push a child into something that may or may not be right for them...and if it _is_ right for them, I feel they'll figure that out on their own.

Of course our ideas about parenting are about us - I can't see any way they could _not_ be about us. I just don't quite get where you're going in this thread. I think ds1 would do very well in university, especially if he had a clear idea about what he wanted. I'm not sure yet about dd or ds2. I just don't think it's right to push. I won't push on whether they should or shouldn't get married or have children or move to another country or whatever, either.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

Well, I'm pretty sure dh will push it (I won't). He was raised in Africa and doesn't see any reason our children should deliberately forgo further education. Our oldest is not yet 6 and dh is always talking about Harvard.









But...I'm also pretty sure he'll be open to alternative types of education (trade school plus college, distance learning, etc), particularly if our kids have a desire and plan for moving onwards and upwards. IOW, sitting around the house playing video games and partying through the night, or spending 3 years "finding myself" is gonna be an absolute no-no if they want to stay at home with us and have our financial help. But if they want to go into a trade, have a trade school picked out and can make decent money, he'll be OK with it.

One of dh's big hopes is that our children will benefit from homeschooling by being able to finish a little early and/or get a bunch of college prereqs out of the way early on so that getting a degree won't look so overwhelming and difficult. We will do everything we can to make further education of some sort very attractive to our kids, brainwashing them in their childhood







that learning is good and wonderful, and helping with finances and housing when they're ready to start college.


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## Sonnenwende (Sep 9, 2006)

College is expensive and becoming increasingly devalued.

I'd only strongly encourage a BA/BS if she wanted to be a BSN, engineer, scientist, or teacher. Then she would have to go the community college to university route. I am not planning at all to pay for out-of-state tuition. The plan is, she can continue living with us rent free as long as she maintains good grades. We'll pay for half the books and tuition as we can comfortably afford. I expect at least some of the tuition to be paid with scholarships. If she is really serious about going, this shouldn't be that big of an issue.

There is no way we could afford to put her through medical or law school if she wanted to be a doctor or lawyer. Unfortunately, she'd be on her own with all the debt that creates.

Otherwise, if she doesn't seem interested in a four to six year degree path, I would suggest either learning a trade/vocation in high school or at the local community college. If she goes the latter route, she can live with us and we'll help pay for it.

I have no idea if she would be interested in the military, but if she wanted to join the Navy, it has been good to most people I have known. I'd suggest it, but not push it. It would just be one of the many options.


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## Herausgeber (Apr 29, 2006)

Push isn't even the right word for what I know I'll do. DH and I both highly value intellectual life and education. In that framework, it will just be assumed that our children will graduate from college. I'll love my kids no matter what, but I admit it will be challenging to deal with a situation in which DD totally blows off school -- unless she has a very good alternative plan for herself.

As one of the first people in my family to go to college, I am acutely aware of what a difference formal higher education can make in your quality of life and the options you have. It's not just yearly salary (though that's pretty significant over the course of your lifetime), it's the type of job you get, associated benefits, physical risk, and the level of control you have over your worklife. I learned a lot in college, and it broadened my worldview. To think of it strictly as job training belittles the experience. College isn't for everyone, but then again, neither is trade school, which a lot of people seem to think is a better "investment." Trust me, you would never want me as your carpenter.


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## chipper26 (Sep 4, 2008)

I will always stress the importance of education and hope that my dd will go to college. In fact, just like with my parents, I will assume she is going...almost as if there is no question.

I understand that it may be difficult to find a job with a college degree, but IMO, options are even less w/o one. Trade schools are fine, they can give you training to start a good job, but no school at all is taking a big, big gamble.

I do not want my dd to have to struggle and work like crazy to work herself up to a decent job. I want to offer her the opportunity to start in a field she cares about and work her way up through that field or through different experiences other than waitressing, etc.

I've waitress and done lots of work that doesn't require a degree. It was no fun. In fact, I will encourage her to go for an advanced degree. Both dh and I have one.

You can never take an education away from a person. Even if times are tough and jobs are scarce, that degree stays with a person for a lifetime and is a stepping stone.

Just my two cents. I'm very pro-education. My dad worked in a mill his whole life and worried everyday about losing his job. He worried he would never find another job that would be as good. With an education, you are not guaranteed job security, but you are better of than those with no education or training when it comes time for the job search.


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## chipper26 (Sep 4, 2008)

One more thing...My education is one of my proudest accomplishments and my entire life would be different w/o it. It is also one of my greatest blessings (other than my family.) I am so thankful that I was encouraged to do this for myself and would NEVER change it for the world.


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## jeanine123 (Jan 7, 2005)

Absolutely. If they want to go to college that's wonderful. But I'm not going to make them feel it's the be all, end all. I know plenty smart, highly successful people who never graduated from college.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Herausgeber* 
Push isn't even the right word for what I know I'll do. DH and I both highly value intellectual life and education. In that framework, it will just be assumed that our children will graduate from college. I'll love my kids no matter what, but I admit it will be challenging to deal with a situation in which DD totally blows off school -- unless she has a very good alternative plan for herself.

As one of the first people in my family to go to college, I am acutely aware of what a difference formal higher education can make in your quality of life and the options you have. It's not just yearly salary (though that's pretty significant over the course of your lifetime), it's the type of job you get, associated benefits, physical risk, and the level of control you have over your worklife. I learned a lot in college, and it broadened my worldview. To think of it strictly as job training belittles the experience. College isn't for everyone, but then again, neither is trade school, which a lot of people seem to think is a better "investment." Trust me, you would never want me as your carpenter.


You said what I was trying to say in a much nicer way. Like you, when I went to college at 25, it really opened me to a world outside my own and for those experiences I am ever grateful. I was always an avid reader but something for me anyway about the class experience really was just amazing.

Also while I think being in a trade is great, truth is that is also not for everyone. My FIL was an electrician, he worked hard to send dh to college because he did not want dh to have to physically work so hard. My dh is a journalist and while he makes less than his Dad ever did as a union electrician, he is far happier with his work than my FIL ever was. By the way, my dh would make a lousy carpenter, electrian, etc. Simply not his skill sets.

That said, someone mentioned taking a year off before college, I think that is a great idea and have been suggesting that my son who is 17 and definitely college bound look at programs like Americorps.

I do think going from HS to college can be dicey for some, I didn't and couldn't do it. Yet by spending my late teens and early 20's in some grimy jobs, it definitely gave me a healthy appreciation for school on my own dime. My dh by comparison knew he wanted to be a journalist since he was 13 and he is 41 now and still writing so college and grad school worked for him at an early age.


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## aprons_and_acorns (Sep 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hollycat* 
i have to say, both "im gonna push" and "im NOT gonna push" are statements about PARENTS not kids.

so much parenting ideas i read here are about peoples ideas about themselves - what they hated as kids, loved as kids, resented about their childhood..... which is interesting. they are not about their specific children at all.

I do see what you're saying, but I also think that remembering your own experiences and learning from them can be a really important parenting tool. It's not making it "all about me" to say that I can remember being not ready emotionally for college at 18. It doesn't mean I will assume that DS won't be ready or interested. I just hope to encourage him to look at all of his options and I hope he feels secure that college is not a one-shot deal the year after high school.


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## Sierra (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprons_and_acorns* 
I do see what you're saying, but I also think that remembering your own experiences and learning from them can be a really important parenting tool.

Yes, and also, several of us answered both with our own personal histories and with answers indicating that we were going to encourage or discourage it depending on our particular children and their situations.


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:

so much parenting ideas i read here are about peoples ideas about themselves - what they hated as kids, loved as kids, resented about their childhood..... which is interesting. they are not about their specific children at all.
Definitely. Don't some of everyone's parenting decision come from their own experiences?

My 6 year old wants to be an artist or a dirt bike mechanic. I think he would definitely do very well in college. I just don't want him to go because of our expectations. I want him to want to go, because I think he'll get so much more out of it that way. I won't push my kids into something that major if its something they are adamantly against. I will absolutely help them if it is something they want though. I really do think I would have benefitted from not going straight into college.


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## green betty (Jun 13, 2004)

I won't "push" college; how my child chooses to structure his education is his decision and I'll support him in following his bliss. We're unschoolers, too, so if he DOES go to college it will probably be his first full-time structured educational experience. That all said, I will be pretty surprised if he decides against it.

Both his father and I have postgraduate degrees that A) cost a lot of money and B) we aren't using at all in our professional lives.







And we're both very, very glad we went, because college and graduate school deeply enhanced our understandings of the world around us and supported us in learning the skills necessary to enjoy complex theological and philosophical arguments. These are deep pleasures for us that we wouldn't enjoy to the extent we do without the benefit of intensive, formal education.

I would not encourage my child to go to "college", but I will encourage him to consider an excellent, private liberal-arts school in the States and help him to plan some interesting projects during his teenaged years to heighten his chances of admission and good financial aid. We live in Canada now and I'm astounded at the quality of higher education here--negatively, that is. I absolutely would NOT encourage him to go to a Canadian university. (Sorry, Canadians.) I'm even considering applying for jobs at good schools that would include tuition benefits for children of employees, should that still seem like a good plan to all of us in about a decade!


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## MCR (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chipper26* 

With an education, you are not guaranteed job security, but you are better of than those with no education or training when it comes time for the job search.

I totally agree. You also may not be working on the field you trained in either, but to an employer the degree says you finish what you start, and in tough times when that high paying job with no degree that you worked the way up the ladder for disappears the chances of starting a new job at the old job wages are slim, you get start low and climb the ladder again, if the degreed people haven't all been hired instead of you.
It's happening and just happen to my BF husband, he's dropped to $10 an hour from $20 and is devastated they did tell him if he had that piece of paper he'd be starting higher and be back to $20ph or more in no time.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

I told my children to not go if they are not knowing why they are going or they do not feel up to doing the work at the time. I also told them if they go when they are not ready and flunk their first semester, I will not pay again until they pay to redo those credits and make everything up. I told them about various other jobs they could do or be interested in and that even if they do not go at first, they can go eventually.

They are still set on going. The older ones anyway. The younger ones are considerably younger.


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## graymom (Jun 27, 2005)

nm


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

We are raising ds with the assumption that he will be going to college, and we will attempt to partially pay for some of it. DH and I both put ourselves through college and hope to offer our child(ren) some financial help. We will also encourage travel.

If he decides not to attend college I will be accepting of what his other goals might be.

My parent did not encourage any of their children to go to college, and I think that was a shame. My sister readily admits now that she got married straight out of high school b/c she felt it was her only option of getting of our parent's house.

If college had been encouraged at our house, perhaps I would have had some guidance and been able to make better choices about which to attend, and possibly had some help getting my hands on some scholarship money. Now I wish I had gone to the high school counselor at the time for help with these decisions, but having no support at home made me feel so lost. I had to start at community college because my parents wouldn't pay for me to take SAT's.

I don't think it's just about having a great job at the end of four years. In fact, I think more and more that is not at all a given with a BA. I think the experience in general can broaden a person's perspective and world view. Of course, there are other ways to do so, but in this house we feel a university is the way to do it.


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## Megamus (Oct 14, 2008)

Regardless of how "valuable/not valuable" or "overpriced/worth it" college is seen to be by the time DS is old enough to think about it, I will make sure he can go _if he wants to._ I will try my best to make sure he follow whatever career/education path he chooses.

I don't know who DS will be in 18 years...so making any other decision at this point would be based on _me_ and not on _him._


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

my dd is 6. she has always shown her passion since she was a year old. she also has the talent to do it. natural beat, rhythm and grace. plus she sees her mom going to college.

so i cant see why she wouldnt be influenced going to college.

do i want her to go to college. if it wasnt dance and music i would not want her to. but i have leads in a couple of countries so i do hope she will go to college. it will open up the world for her if she pursues her interest in dance.

of course its her choice. i will be there supporting her in whatever decision she makes.

seeing her interest in learning it wont surprise me if she goes to college early. and travel worldwide due to it.

i can totally see dd hating school but loving college.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

It depends on the kid.

Our kids are both "bookish" and academically competent. They like school, respect the concept of education, and do not quesiton its value. For us, education has value in and of itself, and not just as a means to an end. They have seen me progress through graduate school and graduate with a Master's Degree in the past year -- and they were both tickled to death and proud as little peacocks (which made me feel wonderful!) We've spent the past 3 years sitting down each evening and doing homework together.

We do disscuss college with them as if it were a given. My 12 year old is already downloading cataloges and looking at course sequences for different majors. My expectation is that they will progress from High School to College with the same manner and attitude that they progress from Elementary to Middle School, etc. However, if we come to that point and they balk at it, of course I will be open to disscussion and respectful of their decisions.

I have come across plenty of people, both professionally (I work in education) and personally who do not want to go to college, do not belong in college, and could do much better for themselves elsewhere. So I respect the fact that depending on the child, it is important to stay flexible and creative. I do believe that some sort of post-high school training is necessary though, for everyone. And I really admire our local votech high schools too, for that matter. They do a good job preparing students for real life. As other posters have pointed out, many people without specific training are struggling right now. We have had a Chrysler plant close in my town, and there are a lot of people who have spent 20 or 30 years making a good salary who have suddenly found themselves without options. People who declined the chance to go to college because a good job was waiting at Chrysler, who now wish they had something else to fall back on.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I am planning on encouraging my dd to do whatever she wants to do with her life while also making sure she gets enough education to go to college if that is what she chooses to do. I am also saving up so I can send her to college without having her get into massive debt. I will send her even if she chooses a major that will not lead to a good paying job like psychology or English because I think a college education broadens your knowledge base and expands how you think about the world.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

College isn't just about making money. It's a chance to learn about other ideas, other people, etc. I wouldn't want my kids to miss it.


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## earthgirl (Feb 6, 2006)

DH & I are not quite in agreement on this. I did not finish college, but I have enough hours to have done so. I just kept moving, lost my mom, other life stuff happened and it just didn't happen. DH went to college early, though and sees it as the norm. Of course, he does not use his degree and the job he has now doesn't even require a degree, but that's the way it seems to go for a lot of people. All this was just a long way to say that DH will probably push DD more than I will. I just hope she is able to find and pursue her passions in life, whatever they may be.


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## earthgirl (Feb 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
College isn't just about making money. It's a chance to learn about other ideas, other people, etc. I wouldn't want my kids to miss it.

But surely you can understand that college isn't the _only_ way to experience these things? Not to dismiss your point, because I do agree that college can be a way to experience all of that. But I honestly think I would have learned a lot more about people if I had spent the money traveling abroad.


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

I honestly don't care one way or the other if my kids go to college, as long as they are happy in their line of work (or parenting, or traveling, or whatever they want to do). My husband makes six figures without a day of college.


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## Belia (Dec 22, 2007)

I plan on speaking the language of college from day one, as if it's a given. We've already taken DS to our alma mater for a visit and taken the picture of his first step on campus.







:

But I also plan on reading my child very closely as the time gets nearer. If he is more interested in and suited for a trade, then fine! No problem! If he would prefer the military, then I have no problem with that. (Well, ok, I would have a problem with that, but..... this is about him!) If he is interested in college and shows the academic AND social maturity to do it, then WONDERFUL! And if he wants to get a job and "unschool" for a while, that's ok too as long as he's supporting himself and being productive.

He's just got to be productive and contributing.... that's all. How he does it is up to him, but yes, our default will be "college."


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## boogiebearlove (Jul 10, 2008)

Me too! But I got pregnant my senior year of HS, so that quickly changed any plans I would have made anyway. I think college is important - I can't get a job anywhere because I have no college degree. In all your examples (OP), someone ended up owning their own business, and I don't think that's an option for everyone!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tinyblackdot* 
I wish my parents HAD pushed and supported me going to college......


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *earthgirl* 
But surely you can understand that college isn't the _only_ way to experience these things? Not to dismiss your point, because I do agree that college can be a way to experience all of that. But I honestly think I would have learned a lot more about people if I had spent the money traveling abroad.

I agree that traveling extensively would be akin to going to college in terms of broadening one's worldview.


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## Kristine233 (Jul 15, 2003)

I will push my kids to do do what feels right to them as far as career and education goes. I don't think college is an absolute.

My first time through college got me the job I currently have. But if I had to pay for that education it wouldn't have been worth it because the job really doesn't pay enough. I did PSEO so my high school actually paid most of my college the first time through. I had actually NOT planned on going back into this field until just recently. Mostly did to make ties with our community and for the benefit of our kids. Its a better opportunity than other jobs I could get here, and I do enjoy it.

The second time through was more for just me. I wanted to see "how I'd do". I graduated with a 4.0 GPA and breezed through my classes. Breezed through them so easily I really don't think I learned much that was "new material" for me. I'm a self learner and had studied most of it on my own prior to enrolling in college. I have the papers that say I graduated college, but was it worth it? I'm undecided. I have 16k left in debt to pay related to that AND there are no jobs for that field in my area with no option to move elsewhere. (we moved here for the town, the COL and for our kids - moving is not an option for us) And, in that career field, the college is optional. It looks good on a resume but that's about all. So I'm not even using that education.

So having gone through college twice, I still think its confusing. My husband, who has never gone to college, makes more money than me. I think it would be better of me to support my kids no matter what they chose and help them research options.


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## BunnySlippers (Oct 30, 2007)

I wont be pushing her for anything. Ill support dd in whatever she choses to do.


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## KaraBoo (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *becoming* 
I honestly don't care one way or the other if my kids go to college, as long as they are happy in their line of work (or parenting, or traveling, or whatever they want to do). My husband makes six figures without a day of college.

This. Exactly.


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## kimiij (Jun 18, 2006)

Yup. If they don't want to go right away, that's fine. But, I will push for them to get a higher degree. Now, if they get there and they are wasting away for 6 years drinking and partying, I will not be paying for that- and that is just foolish decision making on their part.

I think it's obvious that you can be successful without going to college- it takes some independence, intellect, and creativity. And, if they have an idea of the route they want to take and a viable plan, then I would support that. But, this is rare at 18-19 yrs. of age and I think that college is best. Additionally, just because you can be successful without going to college, that does not mean that college is a waste of time. I really think that it is only a waste of time if you waste it.

But, hopefully they will know (i.e., I will teach them) the value of an education. That said, my father does not have a college degree (he dropped out) but he has always cared for my family. My mother has as well (with a college and graduate degree). So, it can and does go both ways.


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

So many different opinions!

I'm exceedinly glad I went to college. I have a Bachelor's in Science of Nursing, and am getting my RN in June. That's something I couldn't have done without my university degree.

My dh on the other hand is making decent enough money in his career field, but has hit a point where he can't advance higher in management because he lacks that critical piece of paper.

He really wishes he had a degree. In my household growing up, it was expected that you would pursue some form of higher education. Be it university, college, trade school.

I'm a nurse, my brother is a millwright, my first sister is a commercial airline pilot, my other sister is almost a practicing psychologist, and my youngest brother is still in highschool. He wants to be an officer with our provincial police.

All those varied jobs required some form of education/schooling.


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## katheek77 (Mar 13, 2007)

I will probably push it. I fully admit that. I will also help pay for it. DH and I plan to pay for at least her final year, and will give her whatever money we can to help pay off loans after she graduates. I know too many people who had Mommy and Daddy paying, and spent their college year/s partying and slacking off and never finishing. So, we don't want to just hand over thousands of dollars, but, yeah, I have no problem helping to pay once she's proven she sees it as an investment. My parents helped me (I also went to a state school, had scholarships, and worked two jobs to cover the rest), and I am immensely grateful that I didn't have any debt when I left.

If she doesn't go to college, I'm "ok" with that, as long as she gets some sort of training/direction/etc. The whole living at home, flitting from job to job, with no expenses until she's 30 (like my sister is doing) will not fly.

I also don't have a problem with taking a year or two off between high school and college to work, travel, volunteer, etc. I was a very motivated student, but had the opportunity to go abroad after high school, and did that. It was an incomparable experience.


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## accountclosed2 (May 28, 2007)

I will support DD no matter what she chooses, but I won't paint one way out as being better than another. I hope that when the time comes we will have been able to save up to pay in full for any education or traveling she wants to do, and/or be able to help with payment towards a house or apartment. We don't want DD to end up where we are.

My parents really pushed university - it was all "when you are at university..." from a very early age. My parents studied for about 10 years each (my father at a very slow pace, my mother getting multiple degrees). My grandparents went to uni, and were very involved in student politics. My siblings and I went straight to uni after high school. Only my brother knew what he wanted to do from the beginning, and, studying economic, he'll probably do well in any case. I had no idea. But not going straight to uni was seen as wasting time, besides, according to my parents you have the time of your life at uni, so we looked forward to it. I studied various subjects for 4 years, got a BA in the end, before coming to NZ, to study more. I'd dreamt of traveling all my life. Anyway, I stayed, got another couple of degrees. getting a job after 6 1/2 years of studying was another matter entirely. I the end i chose to not pursue anything my degrees were for and became a nanny (a job I loved). Now I'm a SAHM, with student loans I'll never be able to repay.

DH is a scientist, spent 10 years at uni. since his last project ended mid last year he's worked in retail. He works overtime, but we still struggle, and live partly off savings. Despite renting off MIL, at a very low rent.

Of our friends, the only ones doing well, with their own houses and kids, are the ones who didn't go to uni. They got a trade, an apprenticeship, or a desk job and worked themselves up. Most of are friends did go to uni, however, and all of them are struggling. Some have a house, but they've had to push the dream of kids back for later. And we're not "young", I'm younger than everyone else (about 30).

A degree isn't a ticket to anything. Unless you become an accountant or a lawyer or something like that.

I personally love books, facts, learning of any kind, but I really can't see how doing well at school or going to uni or getting a degree makes any difference at all. We would most likely have been in a much better position now if we hadn't gone to uni, but instead worked, traveled etc.


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## veganf (Dec 12, 2005)

We're not pushing college. Local state college would be fine with us if they want to go.
I went, lot of good it did me








.
My husband never graduated, because he was already making too much money in his business on the side.
Same with my own father...got out of the Navy, his business was very successful, so the heck with college.
My mother never went.


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## Sailor (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veganf* 
My husband never graduated, because he was already making too much money in his business on the side.

Yep, this was a lot like our experience. My partner did graduate from art school, but only because he got a full scholarship. Afterwards, he refused all job offers. He was living in his parent's basement, and refused to work for other people.

So, he found this utterly random 6 week crash course on building one's business. A year later he was on his own, his business doing fantastically. And, now, it's even better - he goes into his office like 2 times per week, and the rest of the time is enjoying his life.

His only regret is that he didn't take the 6 week crash course right after high school. He never uses his degree, no one even knows he has one.

Meanwhile, I had a very similar experience to your husband. I was in college, and making money on a side venture of mine. All of a sudden, I realized if I quit college and devoted myself full time to my business venture, I could support myself. Which is exactly what I did. Years later - I'm loving the freedom of what I do. I have the ability to set my own schedule, take long trips and write them off on my taxes, lol.

My family was appalled. Every single one of them, 3 generations back, no exceptions has PhD's. I'm the odd one out, and it was a huge scandal when I dropped out. But, I'm so glad I did it. And, for a while, I was really resentful that I had been pushed into going to college. After high school, it was the ONLY option ever presented to me. I didn't even know of other options.

Some things a person really needs a degree. But, in terms of owning one's own business - it doesn't take a rocket scientist.







Just a little luck, imagination, and basic math.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I have to ask if people actually believe the following points:

1) Higher (post-secondary) education teaches people to think critically.
2) Higher education broadens people's worldviews.
3) A degree proves that you finish what you start.

I see these things all the time, and I just wonder if the people saying them actually believe them. I don't. I've seen far too many narrow-minded, gullible, unmotivated people with degrees and far too many open-minded, determined people with excellent critical thinking skills without degrees to find much, if any, validity in those statements.

The last one drives me especially crazy. Sure - finishing a degree could show that. It often shows no such thing. IME, it often shows that a person was convinced in high school that if they got their degree, the rest of their lives would be easy street, so they were willing to put in the 4-5 years of hard work in the belief it meant they'd never have to work hard again. Sometimes, it also means that mom and dad are willing to support said person for the time it takes to get a degree, and they find the idea of doing research and writing papers more appealing than having to worry about whether their utilities get turned off or there's no food in the house.

I'm just boggled by the amount of hype our society creates about people who hold degrees. Get one if you want one, but it doesn't _prove_ anything about you, as people don't all get through the same way or through the same effort, ability, sacrifices, etc.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I have to ask if people actually believe the following points:

1) Higher (post-secondary) education teaches people to think critically.
2) Higher education broadens people's worldviews.
3) A degree proves that you finish what you start.
.

I strongly believe #1 and #2. Not so much #3.


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## aprons_and_acorns (Sep 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I have to ask if people actually believe the following points:

1) Higher (post-secondary) education teaches people to think critically.
2) Higher education broadens people's worldviews.
3) A degree proves that you finish what you start.

I don't believe any of those three things are true. In fact, I agree with your entire post.

I hope my child(ren) will have choices and opportunities in life and if college is the way then I will support that. But I disagree that having a degree is any kind of indicator that you value thinking or learning. A lot of people do a lot of learning and thinking without going to college. Some of the smartest and most successful people I know actually.


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## Sailor (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
I strongly believe #1 and #2. Not so much #3.

My partner's friend has a masters in business management. He's never left the country, he's totally closed to new ideas/beliefs, and he has no job.

Of course, there are examples of just the opposite - I don't deny that.

I actually think it's less about college and more about the individual in terms of broadening ideas, learning new things, thinking critically, etc. College won't force anyone to think critically or to broaden their horizons. The person involved has to want to do this, and has to play an active role. I see many college students in CA using college as an excuse to party and get drunk. I doubt they're broadening any of their world views.

It all comes down to the individual. If a person wants to learn - they will. Whether that's through college or another path.

After all, college is not the only path towards learning. I'm constantly reading philosophy, science, biology, mathematics, history, etc., texts. I love to learn and I love to travel often. I'm also extremely logical, and am always looking at news things in a critical way (I mean that not in the negative sense but the analytical sense).


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I have to ask if people actually believe the following points:

1) Higher (post-secondary) education teaches people to think critically.
2) Higher education broadens people's worldviews.
3) A degree proves that you finish what you start.

I see these things all the time, and I just wonder if the people saying them actually believe them. I don't. I've seen far too many narrow-minded, gullible, unmotivated people with degrees and far too many open-minded, determined people with excellent critical thinking skills without degrees to find much, if any, validity in those statements.

The last one drives me especially crazy. Sure - finishing a degree could show that. It often shows no such thing. IME, it often shows that a person was convinced in high school that if they got their degree, the rest of their lives would be easy street, so they were willing to put in the 4-5 years of hard work in the belief it meant they'd never have to work hard again. Sometimes, it also means that mom and dad are willing to support said person for the time it takes to get a degree, and they find the idea of doing research and writing papers more appealing than having to worry about whether their utilities get turned off or there's no food in the house.

I'm just boggled by the amount of hype our society creates about people who hold degrees. Get one if you want one, but it doesn't _prove_ anything about you, as people don't all get through the same way or through the same effort, ability, sacrifices, etc.

Eh, I agree that it's not anywhere near so black and white.

*But,* a university education certainly does (or should, although in the last few years I do think there's been a watering down in some ways) put #1 and #2 on the table for the taking - not that travel and other experiences don't, but they are _also_ dependent on the individual and his or her effort/taste/time/energy.

What I do think, though, is that when it comes to the job market, a degree does become a shorthand. I've hired people. I base it partly on portfolio work, for sure. And when I see a degree on a resume, I'm fully aware that it's not a guarantee - but on a resume, there are no guarantees.

I'm still more likely to put that resume in the "interview" pile, all other things being equal, because even though I know there are exceptional people who can get through school without being able to read, think critically, or write, it's still more likely that they will have picked those things up because they've been in an environment for four years that is supposed to support that.

So it's a good way to make a rough cut. I don't have time to drag everyone in to assess their critical thinking skills. I do, however, have time to drag in 8-10 people. If someone has the exact right experience or a fantastic professional portfolio, the education doesn't matter so much. But if we're talking entry level or lateral change or anything like that - it sure as heck does matter.

No one can ever measure someone's success or worth by a degree, for sure, nor their intellectual development. But measuring all those things is expensive and takes time.

That's why if my son were reasonably motivated to continue, I'd encourage him to do so, yes. It's lousy to be the 11th resume over and over.


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## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

My hubby was a national purchasing director for years w/o a degree. Then he got laid off when the company was sold. He could not find another job because he did not have a degree. Thanksfully it ended up working out but not having a degree cost us months of hardship and stress while I was pregnant.

I will strongly encourage my children to seek higher education as I do not want them handicapped like my husband was. In this day and age and economic climate a college degree is critical. I know many many companies where you won't even get in the door without one.

I know many people who worked themselves to the bone to put themselves through college. It is hardly simply writing papaers and doing research.


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## straighthaircurly (Dec 17, 2005)

I expect my child to pursue some form of training or degree after high school, but it could be college or trade school. I don't think success has much to do with a specific degree but more to do with getting a broad educational experience and learning how to learn. The degree just gives employers a little more to go on in regards to hiring you, but someone who is intelligent and hard working is capable of doing much more than just what they get a degree in. My DH never finished college, it just wasn't for him. He started a car repair business out of his garage and then built from there. But he knows how to learn and keep up with technology.

I have a 4 year college degree, but my degree is in a field in which I will never work. But what I did get out of that experience is a liberal arts education which has served me very well. I am able to learn new skills very quickly and I gained a self confidence that I would never have gotten if I had not gone through some very important experiences in college. I have been able to transition seamlessly between careers whereas my DH lacks the confidence to ever switch from what he is doing now. Fortunately he is very talented at what he does and been able to make the business work for him.

My DH and I now work together in the business and I do the hiring. I will not even consider hiring an automotive technician who has not completed training beyond high school. The field has become much too technical these days and requires the discipline of a continuous desire to learn and a recognition that nobody knows everything. I get sooooo many guys who have never taken school seriously and come into an interview having worked on a few cars in their backyard and think they know it all. They might become a good mechanic someday but as small business owners, we can't take a chance on them. The odds are not in their favor.

Careers these days are ever changing and thinking that a person can train for a single career for their lifetime is a mistake in my mind. People need to remain lifetime learners and be ready to adapt to a changing economy.


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## KK'sMommy (Apr 13, 2008)

My kids are 4 and almost 2. By the time they go to college, I believe that the job market will be so competitive, they will have to hold some sort of degree. For me, getting my degree was important because it was a goal that I set for myself. I was the first woman in my family to graduate from college. I also knew that having a degree would help me in future job searches, even if they were not necessarily in my field of study. I went to a local community college for two years, than a campus for a state college located in my hometown. I lived at home all the way through college and received several grants/scholarships. After 5 years of working part-time and going to school full-time, I came away with a degree and only $5,000 worth of debt. It just so happens that I have a degree in Family Relations and Child Development, so as a SAHM I am using my degree more than I ever have in the field!







I am already talking to my kids about the importance of education and even though I know it does not bring any guarantees, I still feel it should be a priority.


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## newbymom05 (Aug 13, 2005)

My father (a lawyer) always said that a college degree will give you knowledge, but for a job, you need a trade. I think I'll have the same attitude with our boys--education is good for its own sake and is worth pursuing, but it's no guarantee to anything other than knowledge.


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## ~Boudicca~ (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BunnySlippers* 
I wont be pushing her for anything. Ill support dd in whatever she choses to do.









:


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

However, I will say that while I would never push my children to college, I do warn my children of the dangers of going to college. There will be less earnings financially, the work they do will be of a nature they might not like as much, and there will be less job security with no education. It is true that having a degree does not guarantee job security, but it certainly increases it. The average earnings of someone with a college degree is higher as well as benefits and healthy insurance and so on.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *betsyj* 
I know many people who worked themselves to the bone to put themselves through college. It is hardly simply writing papaers and doing research.

Of course many people have worked hard to put themselves through college (in addition to the course work, I mean). I never said they didn't. What I'm saying is that you can't tell that from the fact that they have a degree. When my mom went back and got her degree, she was raising three kids (all juvenile delinquents of one kind or another, although I think we all managed to avoid actually getting a record), looking after her invalid parents (alone - her brother lived out of town), and coping with an alcoholic husband. She also worked a full-time job 2-3 months a year (tax season). She finished her degree by working through tremendous obstacles. I think that's awesome. However, the fact that she has the degree doesn't tell anybody _anything_ about any of that. My stepbrother earned his degree while living with his dad and stepmom, and having his meals cooked for him, at least some of his laundry done, and all his essential bills covered for him. His degree doesn't tell anyone _that_, either.

Cases like your husband are one of the reasons I'm so annoyed by the cult of the degree that's sprung up in our culture. Of the three most competent managers I've ever worked under, only one had a degree. The three most _in_competent managers I've worked under _all_ had one. The degree litmus test is really, really flawed, except in a very specific areas. People have just accepted that you have to have that piece of paper to prove something...and nobody seems to stop and question just what it actually does prove.


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## SpiderMum (Sep 13, 2008)

I'm not going to force or push my kids to do anything. DH went to college and it helped him get a job in his field (IT), I didn't go to college because an art degree would have been worthless and done nothing be wrack up needless debt. I wanted to be a SAHM anyway.

So if my DD has an interest and needs college for her chosen field, sure, I'll be supportive...but I will never force her to go to college if that is not what she wants. Going to college for the sake of going to college alone is pointless and only creates a lifetime of debt. I do not believe college is the be-all and end-all. I've known many people who have done well without it.


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## AGierald (Sep 5, 2007)

Nope, I wont push my kids to go. I have 25k in student loans i havet even started to pay, and I never could find a job. If i had it to do over again, I'd go to community college and find a full time job. The only thing I got out of college was my best friends, and I love them, but if we were meant to be friends, we would have met anyways, IMO. lol.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Quote:

However, the fact that she has the degree doesn't tell anybody anything about any of that.
You are correct, Storm Bride. Your mother got an education in and out of college.

I have known many very young people under thirty with a masters degree or PhD whose parents put them through school and they have little or no broadening of their character, just book learning. Yet, they work over me because of an opportunity I did not have.

I recall being a substitute teacher waiting over a half an hour for a young administrator 25 years old to direct me to my classroom. He sat on the phone with personal calls for the half hour as if I were not there, arrogantly carrying on as if time were no matter. No wonder public schools are dysfunctional. The same school employed a young substitute simply for the band director because he was someone's son.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprons_and_acorns* 
I just wanted to add that if DS wants to go to college I will support him fully in that! I am definitely not anti-college, but going there straight out of high school was a mistake for me.

Me too.


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## chirp (Feb 9, 2008)

haven't read all the replies

my degree has been practically useless. my husband's has been critical. i say let the kid choose.

i would encourage my child to get a social experience like college. out on their own but without being completely without a safety net. travelling would work. or working with an americorps program or something like that. my social experiences in college are what made me who i am today. that includes having professors who i respected and learned from...but it doesn't necessarily mean the classroom experience.

otherwise...whatever they decide to do to train themselves for a job is their decision.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Cases like your husband are one of the reasons I'm so annoyed by the cult of the degree that's sprung up in our culture. Of the three most competent managers I've ever worked under, only one had a degree. The three most _in_competent managers I've worked under _all_ had one. The degree litmus test is really, really flawed, except in a very specific areas. People have just accepted that you have to have that piece of paper to prove something...and nobody seems to stop and question just what it actually does prove.

Slightly OT, but I don't think that's entirely true. People who hire (like me) have had all the same experiences with really smart/educated/competent people who don't have degrees and incompetent people who do.

The thing is, when you get 150+ resumes for one job, you do start cutting people on that kind of surface level thing. Not only that but many companies' HR departments require them, in part to ensure people can be promoted equally later on.

It's a pain but it is the reality, in many areas and jobs and fields. In others, of course, it doesn't matter a whit.


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

I think I am going to push it, because I don't think there is a job in my city that pays more than 8$ an hour, that doesn't require a degree.... well I guess the call centres pay 12$ an hour. I don't have a college education and neither does my husband and we both regretted it and still do, I'm thinking about going back to school, I just really wish I would've done it years ago and the same goes for most of the people I know who don't have a degree, I dont want my kids to live a life of regrets like us.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

FACT: People with degrees tend to have more favorable job opportunities than non-degreed individuals, regardless of actual school or degree.

FACT: lifetime salaries for degreed people are on average higher than lifetime salaries for people without a degree, even taking the debt created into account.

FACT: many many jobs, especially those with more flexibility, job security, benefits, and portability, are exclusively for those with degrees.

FACT: in economic downturns, folks without degrees are more at risk for job loss/under employment and are generally more adversely affected than folks with degrees.

FACT: most job placement is about who you know, and who knows you. College networks of alumni can be very powerful in finding out about jobs or getting a good shot at an interview.

FACT: Many standard rates and salary calculations are based on experience and degree. A lack of a bachelors degree for many positions can automatically knock four years off of someone's experience - regardless of the degree or field. For example, someone with a HS degree and 10 years HTML coding can only charge the same as someone with a bachelors and 6 years of experience - REGARDLESS of what the degree is in.

FACT: in some industries, there is significant degree inflation - a BS is now required where a HS degree used to be sufficient. An MA or MBA is now required where a BA used to be sufficient. I have worked at several places -non-profits - where they only promote people with master's degrees.

Now, regardless of whether this is right, fair, etc. it is the current state of the US economy/society. And one of my primary responsibilities is to make sure my kids have the skills they need to have as many choices in their lives as possible - and a degree will make their lives easier.

So not only will I be expecting my kids to go to college, unless there is a damned good reason why they are unsuited, I will also push them to go to the best college they can get into. Yes, there are many other ways to get similar experience and skills - and we all know people with degrees who do not have these skills - but college in many ways can be both a short cut to get them, and is easily recognizable credential.

'Course, there is no reason why someone can't take time off, can't do the AA -> BA route, or pay for their education themselves, which I think can make the experience more valuable.

My background/biases
-------
Both dh and I have degrees - he has a degree in computer science and I have a BS in International Affairs and an MA in Anthropology. Both are 100% required and used by us in our work, even though my current job is a departure (web development) from what I originally thought I would do. But we see our degrees not as job training, but rather as ways to train us in how to think.

My dad and mom both had degrees - my dad had presigious education (Cambridge and Harvard MBA), my mom put herself through Pasadena City College, UCLA, and then Baruch college for her Masters (she paid for it all herself, and supported her mother at the same time). Daughter of a farm hand and a nurse from small town, Il., without these degrees, she never would have had the positions or opportunities she had in her life.

DH's parents do not have degrees, and DH's dad found this was significantly held against him when he was 55 years old and looking for a job - even though he had owned/run companies, no one wanted to hire him without a degree (they even said that to him on a couple of occasions). He topped out far before he was ready to retire.

And the friends and connections I and dh both made at our respective colleges have had defining impacts on our lives. I don't really keep in close contact with HS friends, but my college friends are my closest ones.


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## talk de jour (Apr 21, 2005)

I will neither push nor discourage college.


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## talk de jour (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpea333* 
I think I am going to push it, because I don't think there is a job in my city that pays more than 8$ an hour, that doesn't require a degree.... well I guess the call centres pay 12$ an hour. I don't have a college education and neither does my husband and we both regretted it and still do, I'm thinking about going back to school, I just really wish I would've done it years ago and the same goes for most of the people I know who don't have a degree, I dont want my kids to live a life of regrets like us.

hmm, interesting. I live in a low COL area and my last (entry-level) job paid $10/hr, and the one I just got pays $10-12/hr plus (sizable) commission.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
Slightly OT, but I don't think that's entirely true. People who hire (like me) have had all the same experiences with really smart/educated/competent people who don't have degrees and incompetent people who do.

The thing is, when you get 150+ resumes for one job, you do start cutting people on that kind of surface level thing. Not only that but many companies' HR departments require them, in part to ensure people can be promoted equally later on.

I know that. I won't work anywhere that has an HR department, for a variety of reasons. That's a contributing factor. I despise the checklist approach to personnel that's evolved over the years, and I've seen no evidence that it's effective. (My jobs have all been fairly junior, but I've worked in companies with unusual set-ups, and also temped for a while. I've had a pretty good window on the way things work. My bff was also in a senior position with a big company here years ago, and I'm astonished that any work actually got done with all the time-wasting nonsense that went on.)

I've never hired at a high level, but I have done resume culling on multiple occasions. I tend to cull people with degrees, unless they're required for, or at least highly relevant to, the responsibilities of the job. Unless the degree is really, really needed, I don't want them, and neither have the managers I've done the culling for (including the one who had a degree herself). Those managers had all had too many bad experiences with people who held degrees. The ones without experience didn't generally have a clue what they were doing, and were convinced that they did...and wanted more money than they were worth. The ones with experience were more expensive than their counterparts without a degree...and the extra cost rarely translated into better performance.

I guess it really depends where you want to work and what you want to do. In general, if a degree is requirement to work somewhere, I probably don't want to be there, anyway. It sucks that the money tends to go where the crappy jobs are, but that's life.


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## MacksMum (Feb 2, 2009)

I think it all depends on what the person wants to do...I went to school and started off in psychology, switched a couple of times and ended up with a business degree.

Didn't have much luck with jobs, ended up working for my brother and became a licensed electrician.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
Now, regardless of whether this is right, fair, etc. it is the current state of the US economy/society. And one of my primary responsibilities is to make sure my kids have the skills they need to have as many choices in their lives as possible - and a degree will make their lives easier.

So not only will I be expecting my kids to go to college, unless there is a damned good reason why they are unsuited, I will also push them to go to the best college they can get into.

I see this all the time, and I don't get it. How on earth does "I want my children to have as many choices as possible, so I'm going to push them to do something they may not choose to do on their own" make sense? I'm honestly asking, not being snarky. I just don't get it. If the person wants to go to college, then pushing isn't necessary. If they don't want to go, I don't understand how trying to make them, in the name of giving them more choices, makes any sense at all.

You know...I blew all my years of high school taking courses designed to get me into university. That's what people were "pushing". I had no really strong opinions about what I wanted to do after high school, and I loved math and French and German, and enjoyed science so I just went along with the direction I was being pushed. Without that university focus, I may have actually taken courses that ended up being interesting for me (never lost my love of math and languages - but hated science in the last two years). I got boxed into minimal course choices (because of prerequisites and grad requirements) because people were...what? Trying to make sure I had choices? By the time I was partway through grade 11, I knew there was no way I was going to be trapped on a campus for 4 years...but I had no other direction to go in.

I still have choices. If I wanted to (I don't!), dh would support me in going back to school right now. I'd do the same for him (after baby arrives). The educational window doesn't close when you turn 19 or 20 or 25 or 30.

I really dislike the focus on money when education is involved, too. Most of the arguments for going to university seem to boil down to "you can make more money". What about life satisfaction? What if you want to do something else? What if you hate academia? I want my children to find the path that _they_ want to walk, not the one that I think they should, or the one that comes with the highest social approval rating, or the one that gives them the best odds of being able to live large.


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprons_and_acorns* 
I am definitely not anti-college, but going there straight out of high school was a mistake for me.

Big ditto to that. I should have waited at least a year or two. In fact, I'm 26 and STILL don't really know what I want to do. I don't see how 18-year-olds are expected to decide how to spend the rest of their lives.


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## Montana Mom (Jun 24, 2004)

I won't push them, I'm convinced that college is a waste except in certain circumstances. Where we live, unless you are going into the medical field, college leads to sit behind a desk jobs which I really wouldn't wish upon my children.

I went to college for a few years, strongly encouraged, and got pregnant part way through. I hated being away from my little one for classes so much that I dropped out. I've got crappy paying job at a nursery that allows me to bring my kids to work with me. The pay is ridiculous, but I get to be with my kids all the time. I would NOT change that for anything.

What I would love to see is more jobs allowing people to bring their kids along. Moms should not be forced to choose between working at a daycare or leaving their kids there.

I would be thrilled to see my boys grow up to be in some sort of hands on work, mechanics, electrical, construction, etc. and my girls happily married homemakers.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 

I guess it really depends where you want to work and what you want to do. In general, if a degree is requirement to work somewhere, I probably don't want to be there, anyway. It sucks that the money tends to go where the crappy jobs are, but that's life.

It really varies by where you live because you cannot get any job whatsoever here without a college diploma or university degree.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
It really varies by where you live because you cannot get any job whatsoever here without a college diploma or university degree.

Nothing - even entry-level?
I'd move. That sounds drastic, but I'd rather move to a new city/town than spend 4 years at university, and end up in debt to my eyebrows.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Well you can get a one or two year college diploma and college is a lot cheaper than university, but all you can get without it are minimum wage jobs with little or no room for advancement.
I think that is the way it is going to be everywhere soon enough except for places that have a ridiculous glut of jobs and not enough labour force, like Alberta or Saskatchewan right now.

ETA: also trade school or apprenticeship, but I count that as postsecondary education. It is exceedingly dificult, if not impossible, to get anything but retail or food service without it here.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
Well you can get a one or two year college diploma and college is a lot cheaper than university, but all you can get without it are minimum wage jobs with little or no room for advancement.
I think that is the way it is going to be everywhere soon enough except for places that have a ridiculous glut of jobs and not enough labour force, like Alberta or Saskatchewan right now.

Oh, well. I'll encourage my kids to go if they want to, anyway. I'm just glad I'm not in the job market, and don't intend to be again, and don't have to worry about this kind of stuff personally. DS1 can probably handle post-secondary institutions (although I do have some concerns that he'll end up so involved in the social side that he forgets why he's there). We'll see about dd and ds2. I just think it's unfortunate that the only way people can get a job is by "proving" themselves in a highly artificial environment first. I _suck_ at school...but I've always been a top employee.

Quote:

ETA: also trade school or apprenticeship, but I count that as postsecondary education. It is exceedingly dificult, if not impossible, to get anything but retail or food service without it here.
Apprenticeship is a totally different ballgame than going to school. I could probably live with an apprenticeship, if there were really no other options.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

I'm not going to push my kids to go to college, but I AM going to encourage them to have a realistic plan. Part of their education is to help them create a _life_ vision, and then help them take the steps they need to get there.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius* 
I'm not going to push my kids to go to college, but I AM going to encourage them to have a realistic plan. Part of their education is to help them create a _life_ vision, and then help them take the steps they need to get there.

I think that's a great idea, but it doesn't always work out. Nobody in my whole family - not my parents, not my siblings, and not me - has a life plan, or ever has. We're just not good at figuring out "what we want to do when we grow up", yk? My only "plan" was to buy a house here in my home town and have four kids - all by the timeI was about 30 or 31. I'll be 41 when baby-under-construction is born, and my first marriage destroyed my chances of buying a home here. So...c'est la vie.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I think that's a great idea, but it doesn't always work out. Nobody in my whole family - not my parents, not my siblings, and not me - has a life plan, or ever has. We're just not good at figuring out "what we want to do when we grow up", yk? My only "plan" was to buy a house here in my home town and have four kids - all by the timeI was about 30 or 31. I'll be 41 when baby-under-construction is born, and my first marriage destroyed my chances of buying a home here. So...c'est la vie.

I know that the plan will probably not turn out to be what actually happens . . .hopefully it will be even better! HOWEVER, the whole "live your dreams" jumping in head first did not work out for me. I think you have to know the ins and outs of your dreams and THEN decide. For example-- I graduated with a degree in music performance. (Not music ed. like my mom suggested.) As a junior, it dawned on me that I did not want to be a musician professionally. I hated the burden of never being done practicing, having to be alone so much to practice, the idea of promoting myself, etc. It was not the life I envisioned. I looked for a major I could switch to but (having already switched from philosophy







) anything else would have kept me in school much longer . . .so I just finished it. Later I got my master's in teaching. It took me FOREVER since I was also working as a teacher and then had a baby (left work). I should have listened to my mom!

Now, compare this to my friend. She graduated with a degree in engineering. Knew which co. she wanted to work for when she graduated. Got amazing benefits so that she could live on her _per diem_ AND SAVED HER WHOLE PAYCHECK, traveled internationally (often for free, even when it was for pleasure) . . .so now she is a SAHM who has a lot of financial freedom. Working for "the man" for a few years was actually enjoyable for her and helped her out a lot in the long run. I remember when she was "on the beach" at times as a consultant . . .she was making so much more than I ever did as a teacher-- for doing NOTHING.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I think the dreams part is where my family falls down. We've never had any. Except for four children (born naturally, of course *sigh*), I don't think I've ever had a dream in my entire life.


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## sharon.gmc (Nov 17, 2008)

I am happy if they graduate from high school. I will be content if they graduate from college. But if they decide that college is not for them, I will support them with their decision.


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

I want to enourage college, but not force it.

College was forced upon me, lots of pressure and I ended up rebelling at the end of my senior year and NOT going.







:

I'm a smart girl and have done very well despite not having a degree. Where I currently work actually does require a degree (and everyone else has at least a masters!) but I managed to land my job (not entry level) based on my experience and great references. In December I negotiated a nice raise b/c I was being recruited by another company (that also requires degrees) and my current place paid to keep me.

I make much more per hour than one of my good friends who is an occupational therapist and up to her ears in student loan debt. So I feel good about that, and what I've been able to do without a degree.

BUT BUT BUT, I feel I'm a rarity. Dh for example. He makes decent money, more than $50,000 a year and we are in a low COL area. But he hates his job, and his options are limited. He's actually looking at going back to school to open up his options. Unlike me, he does not have experience in any areas that will really make him decent money, so he's stuck doing what he's doing. I hate seeing him unhappy, yet trapped because of the great benefits and making more than he would doing other things. He makes the same as our occupational therapist friend by the way. So while he's done well financially without a degree, he's not happy.

Having a degree DOES open up your options. Even my OT friend who is drowing in debt has the option to work Saturdays or do private therapy for big ol' chunks of money! I see my sister who has her law degree and works for a large Boston law firm making $150,000 per year her FIRST year .. and yeah, a degree pays off.

Money isn't everything, but I also don't want my child to struggle. Going to college is one way to help ensure that will not happen. Not a promise by any means, but a nice start.


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

I haven't read all of the replies, there are a lot!

I got a degree in a field that doesn't get anyone a job. But, on the other hand, it changed my life, the way I look at the world. The people I met were totally different than everyone else I knew.

I hope I can give my kids a good enough education that they only need to go to university if they have a specific reason to do so, or want to.

It really bothers me the way educational needs have been inflated. All that time spent getting degrees, all that money, when it is only to compete with other people.

I often think of my aunt who is an addictions counselor, and good at it. She trained as a nurse back when they had a nursing school rather than a university degree. She would never get that job now. When she retired, the people they were hiring had Masters degrees.

I don't think it's been good for universities either. People now think their purpose is to give job skills, and they have become a slave to increasing enrolments for more money.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mistymama* 
Having a degree DOES open up your options.

I think it depends on what kind of degree you have. As a teacher w/ a master's I'd make far less than people I know /o degrees in the IT field. FAR less.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

You can't get any kind of IT job here without at least a degree, and usually more upgrades and certifications than that even.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
You can't get any kind of IT job here without at least a degree, and usually more upgrades and certifications than that even.

I'd heard that was the case here, but dh got his job without having finished his degree. In fact, even the part he had done was several years in the past when he was hired. Basically, they hired him at a cheaper salary than they otherwise would have, and took a chance, because he seemed intelligent and motivated. I'd say they're happy with their decision, as he's received raises totaling roughly 75% of his original salary in the last three years. He's also one of only two people left in the office from when he was hired.

This is one of the reasons the degree thing gets to me so much. DH never finished his - he's _very_ intelligent and extremely good at his job, but he wasn't cut out for campus life, and didn't have the same motivation at school that he has at work. Most of the people who have been laid off over the time he's been there have _far_ more "impressive" educational credentials, but they haven't been assets to the company.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I agree it is a problem. Just like jobs that used to be available after high school are now reserved for those with a Bachelor degree.

My husband has a degree but it actually isn't in IT, but when he was looking for a job a few years ago, every one specified a Bachelor's, plus experience, plus other credentials.


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## painefaria (Jul 4, 2007)

I watched my parents push my brother into college and all he got out of it was an increadible alcohol tolerence and lots of debt. He ended up getting his sh*t together after he worked as a roofer for a few years and now after 7 years and all of the aches and pains that are associated he is going to school in the evening. He has a 4.0 for the classes that HE has paid for. I think that a college education is important but pushing someone to do something that they are not ready for is futile and expensive.


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## akaisha (Apr 14, 2008)

DP and i are both university grads (the first in our families) and we will both likely have masters degrees by the time we have kids, but we were never pushed toward school at all. and we'd never encourage our future kids that way either. we don't believe in pushing them toward any one path. we'll encourage them to do what makes them happy and fulfilled, be that college, work, travel, whatever.

DP and i didn't go to school for the job we'd get after. neither of us cared about that, we did it because we love it. the end result was irrelevant to us. DP already owned his own business and still works for himself. i freelance write and work odd jobs in between my traveling. a degree and a job is no reason to pursue education, in my personal opinion.

As to the do you agree with this statement question:

1) Higher (post-secondary) education teaches people to think critically.

i believe post-sec education has the capacity to help you to further the critical thinking skills you already have if you are willing and wanting to do so, but it's not the only way to go about it. i know university did this for me in a lot of ways (degree in critical theory), but it isn't the ideal way for many people. it's one path.

2) Higher education broadens people's worldviews.

Same as above, really. Going deeper though, I think it would be very difficult to not have your critical thinking skills improve in post-secondary education, but it wouldn't be all that difficult to actually narrow your worldview if you wanted to. Academia is a bubble. It's a very isolated and isolating environment that is filled with theoretical concepts that can be difficult to apply outside of itself. It can foster an almost elitist, to use the buzz word, attitude in people who are looking for validation for those kinds of feelings or ideas. It shelters as much as it enlightens and you have to be aware of that.

3) A degree proves that you finish what you start.

I think the whole idea that one should always, without question, finish what they start is absolutely absurd on a variety of levels.


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## OakBerry (May 24, 2005)

I will encourage college but not force it. I will strongly encourage a trade if he doesn't want college. Having a trade at least gives you a base to start. You can move on to other things but you'll have the trade to fall back on.


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## boigrrrlwonder (Jan 18, 2007)

My partner is in the trades, so a lot of the people around us didn't go to college and all have good jobs that require no college - so it's hard to see it the end-all-be-all that a lot of people make it out to be. It my DC wanted a career that required college, of course we'd support her. We'd probably try to financially help her, too. To us, it's important that she can financially survive being independent and we want to help her get there. If college is the way, that's great. If not, that's great too.


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## njbeachgirl (Oct 8, 2006)

I haven't read the replies yet, but am looking forward to it later. Will be interesting to see what other have to say on this topic.

I would encourage college but NOT push it. I really don't think it's for everyone. I also don't think every kid who wants to go is ready right after high school.


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

It's pretty much a given in our family - we're all college (and beyond) educated and I see at least a college degree as a base-level. However, I have come around in my thinking about going to the "best school you can get into" ie Ivies, highly-ranked smaller private schools (Bowdoin, Amherst, etc) and now would encourage my kids to go to state school (UNH, here.)

I'm of the mindset that the "name-brand" matters a heck of a lot less than grades, and more importantly, work-ethic. I'd rather pay a lot less and basically have them get the same education. Someone driven to succeed will do much better in the career of their choice, no matter what school is written on their diploma, than a slacker who cruised through Harvard, but maintains that lack of drive in their career. They'll be weeded out fast.

I don't see it as "pushing" to go to college, but in our family (and extended family) culture, it's just sort of a given. But hey, if I end up with a gifted artist or musician, I'd be thrilled if they went to an art school or a conservatory. Wherever their talents take them is fine with me, as long as they follow that to their fullest potential and take advanatage of whatever schooling is available to them.

We started 529s at birth (well, as soon as they got their SS#s)


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## *Aimee* (Jan 8, 2007)

I didn't have a chance to read all the replies yet, but no, I don't think college is that important at all.

If my son's can tell me exactly why they want to go to college, and what they want to do, I'll help them. But I'm not going to pay for them to "find" themselves or take different classes to figure out what they want to do. Too many of my friends wasted so much of their time and parent's money so they could party more.

My husband didn't go to college. He is a software developer and makes a lot of money. He is now hiring people too. He says it sucks because college people have no experience and expect to start out making 100,000.00 a year because they went to college. He usually takes the people who interned a lot in college or who didn't go and worked and have real life experience. He says the amount of retraining he's had to do to get college students to think differently than they were taught in order how to do things is insane, and annoying.

Obviously, if my kids wanted to be dr's or something, they'd have to go to college. but I don't think you need it to be successful.


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## zoshamosha (Apr 15, 2006)

I think University is confusing to people. Hundreds of years ago, University was a place where privileged young people went to gain knowledge and wisdom. Not a place where you learned a trade. Hence the term "liberal arts." It has nothing to do with the political spectrum and everything to do with the idea that knowledge keeps a society free. A society of thinking people cannot be interned by dictatorships and such.

That said, we treat University as if it were a trade school, a guarantee that a person will be employed upon leaving. I double majored in Political Science and Music and, no, I'm not employed lol!

I will definitely push my kids to go to college. I think a university education really does help a person become smarter and more well-rounded. But I will also encourage my kids to think about job-training as if it were a totally separate thing, which it is.

A college education is a prerequisite for graduate training in law, medicine, and other vocational fields, so that's a plus, too.


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## BugMacGee (Aug 18, 2006)

I wasn't pushed into college, but it was taken for granted that that was what i'd do after graduating high school. I'm so thankful that I did. I'm supporting my family in a way that I wouldn't be able to if I had not.

I learned so much more in college than my job skills.

I won't *push* my kids to go, but it will be the default option.


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## Surfer Rosa (Jun 3, 2005)

I don't think it's the be all and end all, but I do think there are some great things about university.

Both DH and I have fairly "useless" undergrad degrees (Anthro and fine Arts), but the learning, growing and experiences we had were so valuable. I learned a lot about myself, society, and what was important to me...plus it was a great place to meet other people (like DH, lol) and debate ideas. It also led to both DH and I getting second degrees (after working/living for 5-8 years post BA, working pretty crap jobs) and we are both working great jobs now with MA degrees.

I would never push my kids into a uni degree thinking it would give them a leg up in the workforce (unless of course, they went for a "practical" degree: ie. medicine, engineering, etc.), but I do think it's an excellent bridge between teenagehood and adulthood.

I am going to "force" them to take a year between HS and uni to work, travel, or do something different before they head off (if they head off) to uni, as I think it will give them more perspective, and they'll hopefully be more mature when they head off. 18 is too young, IMO. If they need more than a year, that's fine too.

We started an RESP for both kids so that finances won't be an issue if they decide to go to uni. I want it to be an option for them. We also have grandparents who think uni is very important, and who would step up financially if we couldn't. We are lucky, in that respect!

If they decide that uni is not for them, that's fine too...but they need to have some sort of er....life plan. Wow, writing that made me feel really old


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

I mostly learned that the rich kids have a whole lot more fun in college than the poor ones -- and that money can buy better grades.  But I do think having a degree from a prestigious school did help me get a couple of my jobs, and in fact, a friend I met at school is the one who ended up hiring me for the job that really got me started.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fridgeart* 
...but I do think it's an excellent bridge between teenagehood and adulthood.

That's kind of an interesting take. When I was in my early 20s, I couldn't believe how _young_ most of the college/university grads I met seemed. I never thought of it as a bridge at all, because based on most people I met who had post-secondary educations, the main effect it seemed to have was extending adolescence by several years.

I'm enjoying getting the perspective of people who did get a post-secondary education immediately after high school, though. It's a very different world for me, as the only person in my family with any post-secondary is my mom, and she got her degree much later. (I did a year of community college, but it was vocational training - office skills and basic accounting. I'd wasted my high school years on university prep courses, and had no useful job skills at all.)


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

I have a liberal arts degree, and I work in book publishing--so, I don't make tons of money but I love what I do and I needed a degree to work in this industry.

I loved college--and it absolutely did open my mind/world view to many things. So would traveling cross country or going to Europe--so no, college isn't the only way to get that experience.

I wouldn't push college, and I'd be fine if DD decided she wanted to be some kind of performer or work in a trade where college wasn't necessary. Really, I'd be happy if she has any kind of direction or desire at 18!

I take her going to college for granted now-but I'll throw out a tangent--it would be very tough for me to pay for a lower-level college. I'm not sure "a degree" from just anywhere would be worth the investment--at that point I might encourage an eye opening trip to Europe instead.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Montana Mom* 

I would be thrilled to see my boys grow up to be in some sort of hands on work, mechanics, electrical, construction, etc. and my girls happily married homemakers.

It amazes me in this time in our history that anyone still believes it is better for girls not to have an education or a trade. It makes me sad to think about a daughter and her children being thrown into poverty after her husband dies or leaves or perhaps even worse being forced to stay in an unhappy marriage because she has no way to earn a living.

I don't think there is one right answer college or not college. Probably a lot of people are going to college who really can't finish and won't be happy there. For me personally college was a wonderful gift. It exposed me to a lot I wouldn't have been otherwise and helped me consider new ideas. Also, having a degree made it possible for me to get jobs that weren't necessarily well paid, but allowed me to make a meaningful contribution to the lives of others. I believe intellectual stimulation and the ability to make the world a better place are important parts of what make me a happy person. There are other routes to get there I suppose, but for me college worked well.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
It amazes me in this time in our history that anyone still believes it is better for girls not to have an education or a trade. It makes me sad to think about a daughter and her children being thrown into poverty after her husband dies or leaves or perhaps even worse being forced to stay in an unhappy marriage because she has no way to earn a living.

I supported myself for 14 years, and my ex-husband and son for a good portion of that. I have skills (despite having no real education or a trade). You know what? I _prefer_ being a SAHM...and if dh dies after I've been home for another 10-20-30 years, the fact that I did other things _before_ becoming a SAHM isn't going to make one bit of difference on the job market. Nobody cares much about a 20+ year old degree or out-of-date training.

So...no, I don't think it's "better" for girls not to have an education or trade, but _if_ dd happens to make the same choice I've made, I doubt an education or a trade is going to make that much difference if something goes wrong (divorce, spousal death, etc.). Depending on what people - male or female - do with their lives after getting a post-secondary education, that education may or may not ever matter.


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## griffin2004 (Sep 25, 2003)

Many of these posts are making me very sad. A college education is SO much more than just a ticket to a job. I don't per se "use" my undergrad degree in that I am not employed in that field, but my life would be so much less enriched had I not attended college. Ymmv, of course, but I would not trade an opportunity for learning and education for anything in the world, no matter what setting it occurs in.

I expect DD to attend at least one year of college to give it a try and see if it suits her and her goals.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *griffin2004* 
Many of these posts are making me very sad. A college education is SO much more than just a ticket to a job. I don't per se "use" my undergrad degree in that I am not employed in that field, but my life would be so much less enriched had I not attended college.

I am not saying that college does not enrich one's life, but it's like ANYTHING. It is ONE path, but it certainly isn't the only or best path for everyone.

I learned very little in college. I could get an A on an exam, and walk out of the exam room forgetting most of the material. However, I have learned SO MUCH from my family, my friends, and my travels.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *griffin2004* 
Many of these posts are making me very sad. A college education is SO much more than just a ticket to a job. I don't per se "use" my undergrad degree in that I am not employed in that field, but my life would be so much less enriched had I not attended college. Ymmv, of course, but I would not trade an opportunity for learning and education for anything in the world, no matter what setting it occurs in.

I think post-secondary education can be many things. However, the big reason that many people push it these days is because it's becoming a minimum requirement to get work. That's reality. Most people can't afford to just disregard the career/financial aspects of it.

Opportunities for learning and education are everywhere. One of the things that drives me crazy about our cultural emphasis on college and university is the underlying assumption that those are the only places that learning happens.

Quote:

I expect DD to attend at least one year of college to give it a try and see if it suits her and her goals.
What if she already knows it doesn't? I've have felt like I'd been put in prison if I'd been expected to go to college after graduation. There was nothing available there that I was interested in, and whole lot that I was very interested in avoiding.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I have to ask if people actually believe the following points:

1) Higher (post-secondary) education teaches people to think critically.
2) Higher education broadens people's worldviews.
3) A degree proves that you finish what you start.

I just wanted to answer this, because no we won't push post-secondary education on DD.

1) It can, but at the same time it's not a guarantee. Plenty of people come out of college with the same poor level of critical thinking as they went in with. I've seen it too many times.

2) No I don't. What broadens peoples word views isn't post-secondary education, it's the real word education you allow yourself to get. Most of what I learn about life and the world around me has come from allowing myself to accumulate a very diverse group of friends that covers many different religions, cultures, morals and values, carriers, etc. I have a friend who is in med school, I have a friend who spent 4 years on the street working as a prostitute. I have friends that are Catholic, friends that are Muslim, friends that are Athiest, friends that are "religiously and spiritually independent, etc. I have friends from literally all but one continent (guess which







). The rest of what I learned is from my own personal experience, outside of the synthetic "real world" provided by colleges and university. It takes more then a formal education to broaden your world view.

3) It depends on the person. For some it shows they finish what they start or they keep going despite the road blocks that crop up. One friend is in university finally finishing a degree despite financial, bureaucratic, and real life road blocks that cropped up because it's something she truly enjoys doing. For others, it merely shows an inability to take control of their own life. They are there because someone somewhere (usually parents) tell them they need to be there, whether they want to be or not. If I were a business owner, these are _not_ the kind of people I would want working for me.

I have a BSc is Physics. I enjoyed getting my BSc in Physics and currently have a plan to extend it further. I'm occasionally questioning that though because I thoroughly enjoy the job that I have now (well have when parental leave runs out and go back to work). I'm a server at a restaurant. My last job, I was a server at a restaurant. When I started it was a temporary "until I get my degree" thing. When I lost my last job due to the restaurant closing, I actually found myself looking for other jobs in the same field not because I had the experience but because I missed it.

DH has a high school degree and that's it. He works in an art supply store and loves it, and makes a decent amount of money. Most of what he makes though is through contract art jobs he takes on. That is something he loves even more and does even better with it. He dreams of one day being able to live off of being an artist. He's a bit behind the times though, because we _would_ in fact be able to survive off that income alone. I think part of him doesn't want to admit it because of how much he does enjoy the job at the store.

Finally, the highest paying job I ever had was the band I had in high school. Dh hired on as a drummer and was able to leave the job he had at the time that he hated and spend more time with DD just by playing gigs three or four times a week.

If it's what you want, then higher education is good thing. If it's not what you want, then it's not a good thing. If you aren't sure about what you want... Well the idea that you have to be young and free to get a degree is a complete lie. My program at school had a man in his 50's getting a degree because he finally figured out what he wanted to study in university.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
I have a BSc is Physics. I enjoyed getting my BSc in Physics and currently have a plan to extend it further. I'm occasionally questioning that though because I thoroughly enjoy the job that I have now (well have when parental leave runs out and go back to work). I'm a server at a restaurant. My last job, I was a server at a restaurant. When I started it was a temporary "until I get my degree" thing. When I lost my last job due to the restaurant closing, I actually found myself looking for other jobs in the same field not because I had the experience but because I missed it.

I have a close friend who did the same thing, only bartending. She eventually dropped university, as she wasn't really sure what she wanted to study. She kept up bartending for several years, and has now bounced around and done several different things. We don't talk about that stuff so much these days (she lives in Colorado), but I know she's been taking college-level classes again, just because she wants to.

Quote:

My program at school had a man in his 50's getting a degree because he finally figured out what he wanted to study in university.








I sometimes think I may go back and study math in some form or another. If so, I wouldn't be surprised if I were in my 50s by the time I got there...

ETA: Thanks for your response. It mirrored a lot of my own thinking, but was also very interesting in its own right.


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## verde (Feb 11, 2007)

I haven't read this entire thread so I hope I'm not repeating things.

I won't "push" college but I will "push" the idea that if you don't go to college, then you need some kind of skill.

I have attended college a lot and have several different parttime jobs because of that -- which is just the way I like it. I always enjoyed college. As far as I'm concerned, all my college has allowed me to create the type of job style that exactly suits me. My husband, on the other hand, attended college briefly and didn't really like it much. However, he is a highly skilled and has people constantly asking him to do jobs for them. He also makes a lot more money than I do.

I think it has a lot more to do with an individual's personality. I've taught college level classes and there are definitely students in college who do not belong there. For them it is a total waste of time. Others, however, thrive in a college atmosphere.

I also think that some people need to have some life experience BEFORE they enter college. Many of the best students are "non-traditional" students and they range from ages 22 to 80!! I think when students attend college because their parents want them to but they really have no idea what they want to do with themselves, then it can be a disaster. But sometimes being out in the workforce gives a person a chance to figure out where s/he wants to go and then they go to college with a sense of mission and it's a wonderful experience for them.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
FACT: People with degrees tend to have more favorable job opportunities than non-degreed individuals, regardless of actual school or degree.

FACT: lifetime salaries for degreed people are on average higher than lifetime salaries for people without a degree, even taking the debt created into account.

FACT: many many jobs, especially those with more flexibility, job security, benefits, and portability, are exclusively for those with degrees.

FACT: in economic downturns, folks without degrees are more at risk for job loss/under employment and are generally more adversely affected than folks with degrees.

FACT: most job placement is about who you know, and who knows you. College networks of alumni can be very powerful in finding out about jobs or getting a good shot at an interview.

FACT: Many standard rates and salary calculations are based on experience and degree. A lack of a bachelors degree for many positions can automatically knock four years off of someone's experience - regardless of the degree or field. For example, someone with a HS degree and 10 years HTML coding can only charge the same as someone with a bachelors and 6 years of experience - REGARDLESS of what the degree is in.

FACT: in some industries, there is significant degree inflation - a BS is now required where a HS degree used to be sufficient. An MA or MBA is now required where a BA used to be sufficient. I have worked at several places -non-profits - where they only promote people with master's degrees.

Now, regardless of whether this is right, fair, etc. it is the current state of the US economy/society. And one of my primary responsibilities is to make sure my kids have the skills they need to have as many choices in their lives as possible - and a degree will make their lives easier.

So not only will I be expecting my kids to go to college, unless there is a damned good reason why they are unsuited, I will also push them to go to the best college they can get into. Yes, there are many other ways to get similar experience and skills - and we all know people with degrees who do not have these skills - but college in many ways can be both a short cut to get them, and is easily recognizable credential.

'Course, there is no reason why someone can't take time off, can't do the AA -> BA route, or pay for their education themselves, which I think can make the experience more valuable.

My background/biases
-------
Both dh and I have degrees - he has a degree in computer science and I have a BS in International Affairs and an MA in Anthropology. Both are 100% required and used by us in our work, even though my current job is a departure (web development) from what I originally thought I would do. But we see our degrees not as job training, but rather as ways to train us in how to think.

My dad and mom both had degrees - my dad had presigious education (Cambridge and Harvard MBA), my mom put herself through Pasadena City College, UCLA, and then Baruch college for her Masters (she paid for it all herself, and supported her mother at the same time). Daughter of a farm hand and a nurse from small town, Il., without these degrees, she never would have had the positions or opportunities she had in her life.

DH's parents do not have degrees, and DH's dad found this was significantly held against him when he was 55 years old and looking for a job - even though he had owned/run companies, no one wanted to hire him without a degree (they even said that to him on a couple of occasions). He topped out far before he was ready to retire.

And the friends and connections I and dh both made at our respective colleges have had defining impacts on our lives. I don't really keep in close contact with HS friends, but my college friends are my closest ones.

For all of these reasons, we're pushing them to go. My ILs (bless them!) have already put away college funds for them. Throughout my life, I have run into situations where, if I had a degree, I would have made more money, gotten the promotion, not been turned down for the job, etc.

I've worked for people who were not very smart, but they had the diplomas. _It matters._

My biggest regret has always been putting my ex through school instead of going myself. I've spent the rest of my life trying to make a living. I know there are people who make it without college, but it's harder. My ILs have made it easy for my kids to go, and if I can't make them understand how difficult I made my own life by not going, I have not done my job as a parent.

_It matters._


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

At the time of his death, my dad worked part-time as an English professor at a junior college. He had many non-traditional students...some young, some older, but he talked about how all of them were attending college for their own reasons and how it was so different from the kids who were only there because their parents were pushing them to it and paying for it. Many of his non-traditional students had some big challenges academically and really struggled with the subject material, but he was so impressed with how determined they were and how hard they worked. And frankly it took a lot to impress my dad.

Anyway, I think he may have had some second thoughts then about how he and my mom had pushed all three of us into college so hard and how much pressure they put on us. I know they both meant well. But I think he had a chance to see that when people are driven by their own motivation, they will create their own pressure that is much more positive, and they will learn more from their courses and just in general get so much more out of them.

I will encourage our kids to go to college when they find that motivation in themselves. But I don't believe that type of internal motivation is something that can be forced and end up with a positive result.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *verde* 
I also think that some people need to have some life experience BEFORE they enter college. Many of the best students are "non-traditional" students and they range from ages 22 to 80!! I think when students attend college because their parents want them to but they really have no idea what they want to do with themselves, then it can be a disaster. But sometimes being out in the workforce gives a person a chance to figure out where s/he wants to go and then they go to college with a sense of mission and it's a wonderful experience for them.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
FACT: People with degrees tend to have more favorable job opportunities than non-degreed individuals, regardless of actual school or degree.

FACT: lifetime salaries for degreed people are on average higher than lifetime salaries for people without a degree, even taking the debt created into account.

FACT: many many jobs, especially those with more flexibility, job security, benefits, and portability, are exclusively for those with degrees.

FACT: in economic downturns, folks without degrees are more at risk for job loss/under employment and are generally more adversely affected than folks with degrees.

FACT: most job placement is about who you know, and who knows you. College networks of alumni can be very powerful in finding out about jobs or getting a good shot at an interview.

FACT: Many standard rates and salary calculations are based on experience and degree. A lack of a bachelors degree for many positions can automatically knock four years off of someone's experience - regardless of the degree or field. For example, someone with a HS degree and 10 years HTML coding can only charge the same as someone with a bachelors and 6 years of experience - REGARDLESS of what the degree is in.

FACT: in some industries, there is significant degree inflation - a BS is now required where a HS degree used to be sufficient. An MA or MBA is now required where a BA used to be sufficient. I have worked at several places -non-profits - where they only promote people with master's degrees.

Now, regardless of whether this is right, fair, etc. it is the current state of the US economy/society. And one of my primary responsibilities is to make sure my kids have the skills they need to have as many choices in their lives as possible - and a degree will make their lives easier.

So not only will I be expecting my kids to go to college, unless there is a damned good reason why they are unsuited, I will also push them to go to the best college they can get into. Yes, there are many other ways to get similar experience and skills - and we all know people with degrees who do not have these skills - but college in many ways can be both a short cut to get them, and is easily recognizable credential.

'Course, there is no reason why someone can't take time off, can't do the AA -> BA route, or pay for their education themselves, which I think can make the experience more valuable.










: You nicely summed up all the reasons that I believe in college, I was a HS dropout who worked a number of years before realizing that my lack of education was not a good thing.

At one point in my 20's, I was making good money but left that job only to end up making peanuts. Several of years of that made me want to go back to school and I did, eventually getting a graduate degree.

Truth is that aside from when I was teaching junior college, none of my jobs post college really IMO required a degree (even now, I am Executive Director of a non-profit) but I will say that I feel like I have a lot more choices that I ever had when I had no degree.

You mentioned the networking that comes out of school and personally I feel its real, the agency I run has always gotten United Way funding but at a low level. Well this year, when the decision was made to fund our agency, our funding increased over 25%...guess what the person at United Way who made the decision along with their director was a colleague of mine from grad school. I won't get into the details but just the fact that I was the new director and we knew each other gave my agency an in, they had never had in 10 previous years. That is the type of networking that happens in school that I feel doesn't happen in the work place alone.

I know that many folks are successful with a degree yet personally for every one person I know who does well and is successful without a degree, I know many more who are struggling.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

I don't plan on pushing my adult children to do anything in particular.

I feel that aside from doing some fun things at my particular college (I was pre-vet for awhile, at an ag school, so got lots of hands on experience in animal husbandry and care that I never would have had otherwise since none of my relatives live on a farm--make no mistake though, I could have gotten those experiences on a farm though.), that college was largely a waste of time for me as well.

I was a "gifted child" but frankly find academia boring. I enjoy street-level grunt work. It's just my personality. Thus, to be totally blunt, I have had far more interesting and stimulating conversations with the streetwalkers, isolating homeless, developmentally disabled adults and refugees that I have worked with over the years as a grunt level human services worker than I *ever* had with fellow college students or professors. This is not a knock against them, but just that my horizons expand by being with people who are radically different from me. And most of the people and professors I encountered at college were white, low-to-high middle class, culturally christian, "stereotypical american" people. Is there anything *wrong* with being that? Absolutely not. But it didn't "expand my horizons" at all.

All of the people I know who are the most "critical thinking" challenged have college degrees...but that's unsurprising since due to my socioeconomic class and where I live virtually everyone I know has one.







So it's certainly not a panacea.

For me, it's all about the personality. It would be important to me, regardless of what my child did post-secondary education, that they be looking at things in a pragmatic and un-romanticized manner. "The Trades" can be a tough, cutthroat business. If one doesn't know how to sell themselves and have some degree of business management skills, especially in the "new economy" one is going to find themselves up crap creek without a paddle. Having a degree today isn't as valuable as it once was for many jobs, so if my kids decide to go for a bachelors, I'd ask them to consider combining it with internships even if that made it a 5 year program, so that they'd have something on their resume other than a B.S. or B.A.

My job/duty as a parent is to offer guidance tailored to my individual child. It's their journey as to whether they incorporate that guidance, how much of it they do, or if they want to make a leap into the unknown.

I'd offer encouragement to any of my kids who wanted to go to college, or into the trades, or off into entrepreneurship, even if I thought that maybe it wasn't the best fit. But if there was anything that I would "push" it would be going into something like the Peace Corps or Americorps or another service organization. My children will benefit immensely from the privledges granted to them by virtue of their class status and appearance, I'd really like to see them "give back" at some point in their lives.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:

DH's parents do not have degrees, and DH's dad found this was significantly held against him when he was 55 years old and looking for a job - even though he had owned/run companies, no one wanted to hire him without a degree (they even said that to him on a couple of occasions). He topped out far before he was ready to retire.
My dad had a master's degree. When he was looking for work at an older age (50s) it was his AGE that got held against him.

I know of plenty of older people who work in the trades-- like my neighbor, who owned a construction business . . .he retired when HE was ready. With no degree.

I do agree that a college degree (now a master's) is getting to replace a HS diploma, but there are just no guarantees for a job in any case. I've heard that even teachers trying to get jobs in the Chicago public schools can't find work (and no one wanted to teach there before!). The only ones needed are bilingual, special ed, and science. Thank goodness my parents taught me Spanish.


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## dearmama22 (Oct 20, 2008)

Just my thought/personal experience:

I have a degree in Health/Psychology. I just recently graduated so I don't have a career yet but getting my college degree was so important to me. Even if I ( for some crazy reason) become a stay at home mom for the rest of my life and never "use" my degree in a job setting, I will still be happy I have the degree. It is something no one can ever take away from me. I do hope that one day I will have a career that allows me to use what I learned in college and be successfull in something, but even if I don't, I would still be happy with the fact that I graduated with a degree. I wouldn't look back and think it was a waste of time because I'm not " using" it.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amila* 
Neither of my parents went to college- my Dad had his own welding business and worked his butt off and made close to $100,000 a year in the 80's (which was a LOT back then). My mom slowly but surely worked her way from a minimum wage waitress job to making $50,000/year with great benefits working at Merck.

They were always VERY adamant about us going to college. Everything was in preparation for getting into a good college so we could get a great job.

Well I got into a great college, graduated at the top of my class, racked up $80,000 in debt, and could not find a SINGLE job willing to pay me more than $12/hour...or even a decent full time one for that matter. I doubled majored in psych/criminalistics.

DH went to Penn State, hated school, loved college life, and ended up racking up tons of debt in the 6 years he partied there and never graduated. He now owns a successful tile business making around $100,000/year. He could have never made that much with the degree he was pursuing.

I am a SAHM. After my kids are in school I plan to open up my own business.

So, my point it, unless my kids have a specific career path in mind that they are set on, I am not going to make them think college is the be all end all.

Anyone with me?


My opinion:

College is a waste of time
I could easily learn more/better/with a broader POV on my own
College is a waste of money
It's ritualized
It's a status symbol
It's academically unchallenging
It provides opportunities for things against my beliefs
It separates young adults from the world/community
If not working at the same time, it delays young adults in the work force

Phew. All that being said, I am going to college and I will be highly encouraging my children to go to college. Just not the "regular" way. For example, dual-enrolling during highschool, graduating from highschool early and taking f/t classes at the community college, transferring 2-3yrs of credits to a public state university and getting a basic degree without any debt while working full time in the field of their interest is the plan I would present to my kids. I would also encourage graduate school for sure.


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## oddeebean (Feb 11, 2005)

Quote:

I've worked for people who were not very smart, but they had the diplomas. It matters.
Yes, yes, yes. Having a degree opens so many more doors than a person without one. Higher pay, better mobility, job security. I would be doing my kids a disservice in my opinion, if I didn't stress the importance of college. For every success story about someone making it big without a degree there are waaaaaay more people who cannot get good jobs because of it. There are many things you simply cannot do without a degree, and I don't want to limit my kids. I believe college opens doors, not closes them. Plus, an undergrad degree is almost turning into a high school diploma, everyone must have them even for the most basic of jobs.

And I hear about the argument, "Bill Gates dropped out of college" So? He's a statistical anomaly. Of course some people who work really hard will have success, but without a degree you cannot get into some doors. People see your resume and see no college degree and you are immediately disqualified. It sucks, but thats how it is. I don't want my kids to limit themselves in that way.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oddeebean* 
Yes, yes, yes. Having a degree opens so many more doors than a person without one. Higher pay, better mobility, job security. I would be doing my kids a disservice in my opinion, if I didn't stress the importance of college. For every success story about someone making it big without a degree there are waaaaaay more people who cannot get good jobs because of it. There are many things you simply cannot do without a degree, and I don't want to limit my kids. I believe college opens doors, not closes them. Plus, an undergrad degree is almost turning into a high school diploma, everyone must have them even for the most basic of jobs.

Yup. There are quite a few jobs I would have loved to have had, and I would have taken _any_ of them over the 'wow, you're really smart' remarks I collected over the years. You can _have_ a degree and have the _choice_ to not use it, or you can _wish_ you had one and miss out completely.

I have even seen receptionist jobs advertised with a degree required. _Seriously?_ I was desperately hunting for a job, and they wanted someone with a degree to answer the phone?







I don't know for a fact if this is true, but a friend of mine who works there told me everyone at Pier I had to have some college under their belts. _Really?_ For _retail?_ Plenty of people are doing retail in _high school._









If this is the case, pretty soon you won't even be able to work in fast food without a BA









I was 1 of those people at 20 who was making more money than my friends who were in college. I hooked up with a major corporation, had a union job, and made a good wage.

But, when I got older and they were cutting jobs, I was working in a hell-hole division of the company, and my job prospects were limited. I was used to making a high wage with very few marketable skills. My 'skills' were specialized to 1 company. I was no longer 20, and employers wanted to know why I didn't have a degree. It's kind of like those people who work in the auto industry...they've done that their whole lives, now what do they do? Go out and learn to do something else fast, right?

I had always worked nights in bars as my 2nd job, but again, _I was no longer 20,_ and I wasn't as marketable in that field either because unless the owner met me in person and saw that I still _looked_ young, they saw my age on the app and tossed it.

I learned the hard way that _no degree_ matters a lot, and you can't get complacent thinking your job will always be there for you.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

There seems to be a lot of "Changes in the job market = a push for more people to get a degree."

But isn't it possible that causation is the other way? That a push for more people to get a degree has changed the job market?


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## junipermoon (Nov 19, 2008)

i would encourage my kids to do a four year degree in their late teens/early twenties unless they had a burning passion to do something else. i would not push them to enter grad school until they knew for sure what they wanted to do, though.


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
There seems to be a lot of "Changes in the job market = a push for more people to get a degree."

But isn't it possible that causation is the other way? That a push for more people to get a degree has changed the job market?

I think this is often, but not always, the case.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dearmama22* 
I have a degree in Health/Psychology. I just recently graduated so I don't have a career yet but getting my college degree was so important to me. Even if I ( *for some crazy reason*) become a stay at home mom for the rest of my life and never "use" my degree in a job setting, I will still be happy I have the degree. It is something no one can ever take away from me. I do hope that one day I will have a career that allows me to use what I learned in college and be successfull in something, but even if I don't, I would still be happy with the fact that I graduated with a degree. I wouldn't look back and think it was a waste of time because I'm not " using" it.

Was there a reason for the bolded? I know many people with degrees, including a few with Master's and at least one with a doctorate, who are now SAHMs. I don't think they're crazy or that their reasons for SAH are crazy.

I completely agree that nobody can take your degree away from you. Nobody could give me back those four years if I'd spent them on a campus, either. It works both ways, depending on a person's personality.


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## dearmama22 (Oct 20, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Was there a reason for the bolded? I know many people with degrees, including a few with Master's and at least one with a doctorate, who are now SAHMs. I don't think they're crazy or that their reasons for SAH are crazy.

I completely agree that nobody can take your degree away from you. Nobody could give me back those four years if I'd spent them on a campus, either. It works both ways, depending on a person's personality.


I didn't bold it?

I certainly didn't meant that SAHM's are "crazy," but I see it may come across like that.. i jut meant that if I DID decide to stay at home which is against what I THINK will happen, then it would be crazy for ME.

Hope that makes sense.. didn't mean to offend anyone!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dearmama22* 
I didn't bold it?

I certainly didn't meant that SAHM's are "crazy," but I see it may come across like that.. i jut meant that if I DID decide to stay at home which is against what I THINK will happen, then it would be crazy for ME.

Hope that makes sense.. didn't mean to offend anyone!









Sorry - I wasn't clear. I bolded it in the quote, to make it clear what part of your post I was referring to.

Fair enough. I will mention, though, that I've known a _lot_ of moms who ended up WOH or SAH, once they're children arrived, even though they'd believed prior to the birth that they'd do the other. It's not crazy to change your mind. Children have a way of causing people to re-evaluate their lives.


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## dearmama22 (Oct 20, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Sorry - I wasn't clear. I bolded it in the quote, to make it clear what part of your post I was referring to.

Fair enough. I will mention, though, that I've known a _lot_ of moms who ended up WOH or SAH, once they're children arrived, even though they'd believed prior to the birth that they'd do the other. It's not crazy to change your mind. Children have a way of causing people to re-evaluate their lives.

I know...


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