# By this summer you may no longer be able to buy herbs or vitamins without a perscription



## Goddess3_2005 (Oct 20, 2004)

Umm yeah, The FDA is trying to regulate these, A similar law has been passed in a couple european countries, this has driven the price of viatmins up drastically;take for instance a bottle of zinc is now $57 VS $5 or so it was before. We need to write our representatives and stop this.
Check out this http://www.voicesweb.org/voices/sn/fdaherbs1198.html It gives you a full explination. Help stop the insanity!


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Here's another thread related to this too: http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...d.php?t=268493

I already faxed my reps last night about all this. I think it really blows. The worst thing is that nobody seems to be taking this seriously. Seriously now, do any of you really think this WOULD NOT happen? If you trust the government, then I will add you to my list of prayers, 'cause you're gonna need it.

Thanks for posting this here. I was thinking about that when I was reading the other thread.

tayndrewsmama


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Is there really so few people who care about this?


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## Elowyn (Nov 3, 2003)

While I'm sure we all agree that such regulation would be negative, I think we can all breathe a sigh of relief in noting that the article was published in 1998. If they haven't managed it in the past 7 years, I won't be worrying too much about the next few months.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Elowyn*
While I'm sure we all agree that such regulation would be negative, I think we can all breathe a sigh of relief in noting that the article was published in 1998. If they haven't managed it in the past 7 years, I won't be worrying too much about the next few months.









While this particular article in the op is from 1998, the link to the other thread has very up to date links as recent as just a few weeks old. This is far from a dead issue.


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## foreverinbluejeans (Jun 21, 2004)

I don't agree that legislation would be negative. Herbs act as drugs and should be treated as drugs. People waste huge amounts of money for things that are at best quackery, at worst deadly.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *foreverinbluejeans*
I don't agree that legislation would be negative. Herbs act as drugs and should be treated as drugs. People waste huge amounts of money for things that are at best quackery, at worst deadly.

Pretty bold statement IMO. Perhaps you would like to produce your proof that this stuff is all crap. You aren't by any chance in the pharmaceutical industry are you?


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*
Pretty bold statement IMO. Perhaps you would like to produce your proof that this stuff is all crap. You aren't by any chance in the pharmaceutical industry are you?

She didn't say "this stuff is all crap." She said:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *foreverinbluejeans*
Herbs act as drugs and should be treated as drugs.

To me that's the opposite of saying that herbs are all crap. I think a healthy respect for the potency of herbs could help a lot of people! I don't understand how people can think they are both efficacious and totally harmless in any quantity.

My concern is that labelling for herbs and vitamins could become more stringent that labelling for drugs, and that the cost of intelligent self-medication or seeing an herbalist could skyrocket.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

No, captain optimism, you're right, I'm sorry, she didn't say this stuff is crap. She did say:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *foreverinbluejeans*
People waste huge amounts of money for things that are at best quackery, at worst deadly.

So, in a way, by also saying:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *forverinbluejeans*
Herbs act as drugs and should be treated as drugs.

she's not really sure what she means. One sentence says that they are like drugs and the other implies that they are either useless or just plain dangerous, with no benefits to be had.

I do totally agree with you on the rest.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*
One sentence says that they are like drugs and the other implies that they are either useless or just plain dangerous, with no benefits to be had.

Actually, if you misuse medication, it can be useless or just plain dangerous. for example, if you have a stomachache and you treat it with Alka-Seltzer or antacids and it turns out to be appendicitis. If you think of herbs as a special category of OTC meds, then you can see where people could self-medicate for illnesses they don't have, ignore illnesses they do have, or take unreasonable quantities of drugs that are dangerous in quantity. Again, the comparison with OTC meds is good, because a lot of herbal analgesics have the same negative effects on the liver as OTC allopathic analgesics.

Again, my concern with the legislation you describe is the strong connection between the current administration and Big Pharma. Even though I would welcome some regulation of herbs in an ideal world, under this administration I am leery. I think it could be a way to drive up the costs of herbs and vitamins, to completely professionalize medicine (inappropriately) or to take useful medications off the market.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
If you think of herbs as a special category of OTC meds, then you can see where people could self-medicate for illnesses they don't have, ignore illnesses they do have, or take unreasonable quantities of drugs that are dangerous in quantity.

Again, I agree. But, why then does this legislation have to include acupuncture and other forms of alternative care in addition to just buying herbs at, say, GNC? To be an acupuncturist, you need a license. I would venture to say this would be a safe way to get some guidance on purchasing the appropriate product and dosages.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
Again, my concern with the legislation you describe is the strong connection between the current administration and Big Pharma. Even though I would welcome some regulation of herbs in an ideal world, under this administration I am leery. I think it could be a way to drive up the costs of herbs and vitamins, to completely professionalize medicine (inappropriately) or to take useful medications off the market.

I think that the current admnistrations plan really has nothing to do with the consumer and everything to do with money. IMO, all we need to do is look at the gas pump to see an example of that playing out right now.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Oh, for useless info: I don't buy anything at GNC anyway. My acupuncurist also has a degree in Chinese Herbalogy.


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## dingogirl (Sep 9, 2002)

My accupuncturist liked the idea of herbs being regulated, but they could go too far with it.

I think the FDA is too quick to approve some medications. Remember the problems with Fen Phen and HRT? And little is known about the long-term effects of Ritalin use.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/h...ish_414363.htm


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

If the FDA starts regulating vitamins and herbs I will no longer be able to use them because I won't be able to afford them. My anemia will get worse but I don't have insurance so... Considering the amount of money it costs to get anything approved by the FDA I can only imagine how much my mult-vit, antioxidants, and St. John's Wort would be. At my current level of usage I would probably be like one of those old people who could either afford meds OR food.

How many people in this country don't have insurance? Alright guys- go to the doc for your vitamins.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dingogirl*
My accupuncturist liked the idea of herbs being regulated, but they could go too far with it.

It may just be me, but it seems like the majority of the supplements that the major issues are being brought up with are the ones that are being used for weight loss. I just saw this commerical for some junk called Propolene where the people in the commercial are saying that you don't have to change your diet. Just keep eating what are now and take these pills and you'll just lose all the weight you want. Come on now!!! That's as smart as BoTox treatments.

So, I suppose there is SOME regulation that is needed, but I think perhaps it should start in the labeling process first and then see where that goes. I don't know for sure, but I don't even think that users of Phen Phen were advised to continue on the same diet that made them overweight in the fist place. Were they?


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

The bigger issue here is taking away personal responsibility. If I choose to go to GNC and buy a bottle of whatever herbal supplement strikes my fancy and take 6 or 8 of them and toast my liver or something, then isn't it my fault for not researching that herb? Yeah, there are a lot of people stupid enough to do this. Should we really be protecting them from their own stupidity, and punishing the rest of the population for it?

Regulate it for quality and dosage, sure. Make it only available to over-18. But take it away from everyone who can't afford to get a prescription and pay inflated prices, and you're going to screw over thousands of people.

Sometimes I wonder if the unwillingness to fix the health care system, and sometimes make it worse, is just a population control method.







:


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paquerette*
The bigger issue here is taking away personal responsibility. If I choose to go to GNC and buy a bottle of whatever herbal supplement strikes my fancy and take 6 or 8 of them and toast my liver or something, then isn't it my fault for not researching that herb? Yeah, there are a lot of people stupid enough to do this. Should we really be protecting them from their own stupidity, and punishing the rest of the population for it?

Regulate it for quality and dosage, sure. Make it only available to over-18. But take it away from everyone who can't afford to get a prescription and pay inflated prices, and you're going to screw over thousands of people.

Sometimes I wonder if the unwillingness to fix the health care system, and sometimes make it worse, is just a population control method.







:

Yeah, what she said!!!


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paquerette*
The bigger issue here is taking away personal responsibility. If I choose to go to GNC and buy a bottle of whatever herbal supplement strikes my fancy and take 6 or 8 of them and toast my liver or something, then isn't it my fault for not researching that herb? Yeah, there are a lot of people stupid enough to do this. Should we really be protecting them from their own stupidity, and punishing the rest of the population for it?

But (and I am playing devil's advocate here) isn't that what we do with prescription drugs?


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

What a bunch of shite


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## hotmamacita (Sep 25, 2002)

JUSt saw this. Unbelievable. But then again, its not that unbelievable. Its pure GREED.


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## hotmamacita (Sep 25, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *foreverinbluejeans*
I don't agree that legislation would be negative. Herbs act as drugs and should be treated as drugs. People waste huge amounts of money for things that are at best quackery, at worst deadly.


I disagree.

Strongly.


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## hotmamacita (Sep 25, 2002)

I read the links. I am so outraged. I would seriously violate the UA in responding to this move by the FDA.


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## pamamidwife (May 7, 2003)

heh, I think Americans need to be regulated. As in, stop running into GNC for the latest "pill of the week" as advertised by Prevention magazine and start researching this stuff on your own.

The sheeple "pill for everything without knowing what the hell it is" is the quackery, not the herbs.


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
But (and I am playing devil's advocate here) isn't that what we do with prescription drugs?

Yes, but I'm not so sure we should be doing that, either. When I think about it, every prescription I've taken since I've been an adult, I could have written myself. I at the very least read the drugstore.com info on things, and the two major Rx's I've had I've researched further and requested myself, instead of the doctor suggesting I take them.

Of course lots of people wouldn't be comfortable figuring out their own heart medication or whatever, but they can still go to a doctor, get blood tests, and listen to what the doctor has to say.

And yeah, that opens up the ability for people to abuse things, but I really think it's their prerogative. I guess I'm more libertarian than I'll admit to being. :LOL


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pamamidwife*
heh, I think Americans need to be regulated. As in, stop running into GNC for the latest "pill of the week" as advertised by Prevention magazine and start researching this stuff on your own.

The sheeple "pill for everything without knowing what the hell it is" is the quackery, not the herbs.

I agree with this 100%- it's hypocritical to allow people to "shop" for precription medicine by advertising them and telling people to "Ask your doctor about XYZ" but at the same time tell them they are too stupid to buy herbs.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

I was reading another thread on MDC- someone's MIL was sent to prison for 6 years (while she was pg) for having meds not prescribed for her (which they found when they searched her house BY MISTAKE). I have taken a lot of prescription meds (prescribed to other people) given to me because because I don't have insurance and can't afford to see a doc or pay for the meds (has everyone checked out how much prescription meds are?







: Thank goodness the police have never been in my house or I might be in prison now. Who thinks it is a good idea to send people to prison for sharing St. Johns Wort? *Because that is what laws do- give the government the ability to punish people for breaking them.* *I don't believe people should be in prison for illegal drugs much less herbs.* Although- with all the MDC moms who might end up in prison for vitamins and herbs maybe we could start a club







.


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Its just another way for Doctors/Insurance companies to make MORE money off of us. Thats why so many seniors (and others) here in AZ go to nearby Mexico to get Rx's and medical services.....bc they cant afford the astronomical costs here in the US.

We need to take responsibility for our health. Yes, fast food is unhealthy, but if you want to eat it thats your right.....and if you want to OD on ST Johns Wort or Zinc.....thats your right too. THe govenment is getting too far up our asses IMHO.....


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## Autumnschild (Jul 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rainsmom*
We need to take responsibility for our health. Yes, fast food is unhealthy, but if you want to eat it thats your right.....and if you want to OD on ST Johns Wort or Zinc.....thats your right too. THe govenment is getting too far up our asses IMHO.....

Yeah...what she said.

Anything can be used without proper knowledge and therefore abused. This doesn't necessarily mean that we need the government to babysit us so we don't all kill ourselves from ignorance or stupidity. It's a moneymaking scheme, c'mon...

So, will it eventually become illegal to grow medicinal herbs that are being regulated by the government? Where do the lines get drawn? We give up our rights in the name of "protection".


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## Autumnschild (Jul 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Autumnschild*
We give up our rights in the name of "protection".

Correction:
I haven't "given up" any rights. Every time I turn around, my rights are being taken from me. All I can do is protest.


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Quote:

Correction:
I haven't "given up" any rights. Every time I turn around, my rights are being taken from me. All I can do is protest.


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## dingogirl (Sep 9, 2002)

I counted 20 ads for various medications in one woman's magazine!

EVERY medication has a side effect. You can't say that about all herbs and vitamins.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

I am pretty sure just about every herb and vitamin have potential side effects as well.
The only thing I that can boast of absolutely no side effects (I think) is homeopathic remedies.


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## dingogirl (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:

I am pretty sure just about every herb and vitamin have potential side effects as well.
When taken in excess,yes.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Right. I guess my point would be that I don't think it does our "side" any good to present herbs and vitamins as being without side effects.


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## dingogirl (Sep 9, 2002)

Most anything in excess can harm you. Drinking too much water can harm you.
But if you take the correct amount of medications, they still have side effects.


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

I don't think anything found in nature should be regulated. If Joe Schmo goes and takes hemlock by mistake and dies, it doesn't really affect the general state of the planet too much. It's part of the natural cycle of things. I *do* think that there should be regulations on man-made substances. Again, if Joe Schmo goes and takes antibiotics purchased OTC (and they are all otc in some countries) for every little sniffle, it changes the natural cycle drastically. I also think antibacterial soaps and the like should be regulated, if not outright banned. But herbs? Honestly, what's next - are they going to be writing out prescriptions for vegetables and fruits? Rhubarb maybe? Because, without regulation, someone just might eat the leaves and get sick . . .
Maybe they should just somehow ensure that noone leaves their houses without a specific written permit . . .

Some plants are already regulated, so this has already started (think poppy, cannabis). Like we're really going to be able to win this one. Bush's next campaign slogan "War on Nature".


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HerthElde*
I don't think anything found in nature should be regulated. If Joe Schmo goes and takes hemlock by mistake and dies, it doesn't really affect the general state of the planet too much. It's part of the natural cycle of things. I *do* think that there should be regulations on man-made substances.

I think I could get behind this.
Although, aren't many medications manipulations of things found in nature?


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## Autumnschild (Jul 20, 2004)

Western science studies herbs much in the same way as it does synthetic substances, by extracting certain components and studying them separately instead of looking at the herb as a whole. A particular component, studied alone and in high doses could prove to be dangerous or toxic, while the herb as a whole (as intended by nature) has healing properties that have been used for generations without negative side effects.


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
I think I could get behind this.
Although, aren't many medications manipulations of things found in nature?

Yes, many substances, both harmful and beneficial are derived directly from natural substances. In fact, if you want to get technical, EVERYTHING starts out as a natural substance. And every natural substance can be broken down into chemical components. But that doesn't make them the same, kwim?

I'm nak so can't get into it too much, but a good example of harmless in nature, harmful when derived is SLS (sodium laurel sulfate). It's derived from coconut oil. Now, its effects on the human body are up for debate, but in a biochem lab setting, it is used to denature protein (that is, to break the bonds between the amino acids that make up the protein). If you were to try the same thing with plain coconut oil, it wouldn't have the same effect, because there's a lot more in coconut oil than just that one component.

Similarly, the action of a whole herb is different than a drug that may be derived from it, even if it does get the same allopathic-medicine-perceived result.

I also believe that there's an energetic component that we're missing when we derive something from something else, but that's for another discussion


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## treemom2 (Oct 1, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HerthElde*
Bush's next campaign slogan "War on Nature".

:LOL Hasn't this already begun?

Anyway, I was at my health food store today and the owner gave me some info on this new legislative crap. I was/am outraged!!!!







All I can think is that I took my children to the doc last week and walked out of his office with 5 prescriptions (didn't fill one though btw)--went straight to the health food store and now my kids are fine without all of that crap in their systems. I really don't want our big gov taking that right away from me and I plan to write some letters this week. I just can't help feeling that everything in our country at the moment is about the bottom line and what are we really going to do to help this situation?!!? I don't think we have the money the pharma industry has to fight this







:


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HerthElde*
Similarly, the action of a whole herb is different than a drug that may be derived from it, even if it does get the same allopathic-medicine-perceived result.

I gotcha! And, FTR, I think you're right. I am just trying to work it out in my own mind.

Annette


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

One good thing could come out of this threat . . . it might prompt people who are interested in natural healing to become aware of the healing plants growing near them (even in sidewalk cracks :LOL which is usually where I find plantain), and how to use them fresh, dry them, make tinctures, teas and the like. It may help to connect more people to nature and to allow people to see themselves as part of the earth rather than separate from her. Buying herbs at the healthfood store is nice, but also can be a touch impersonal.

Or, it may just be a boost to the Canadian economy









No government can stop nature, no matter how hard it tries.

















: annettemarie, I *just* figured out your senior member title, and I've read it so many times. Can I have gotten so crunchy that pop culture references are lost on me (especially growing up in a family that regularly quotes Homer Simpson)


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

OK, what do you think it means?


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## HerthElde (Sep 18, 2003)

my guess is/was always that your child(ren) nurse on demand 24 hours.

BUT what I forgot is that there's a restaurant called "Dairy Queen"







:

It's a play on words, yes?


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HerthElde*









my guess is/was always that your child(ren) nurse on demand 24 hours.

BUT what I forgot is that there's a restaurant called "Dairy Queen"







:

It's a play on words, yes?

Yep, that's it!


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

ANyone have a link on this.......so we can send letters to our governors & senators regarding this issue? I cant find one.....


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## stirringleaf (Mar 16, 2002)

a bottle of zinc is $57 ? was that a typo?


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

Hey, if they make plantain and other such herbs illegal, does that mean the feds are comin' to rid my backyard of broadleaf weeds? Yeah, yeah, that's the ticket. You know that wild violet, it's full of vitamin c, it's an herb, too, it's gotta go. Come on, G-men, pull my weeds for me! :LOL Someone please tell me there's a medicinal use for Japanese Honeysuckle, kudzu?!









isn't this the same thing they started talking about smoking banana peels, way back when? it's not like they gonna make bananas illegal, now is it? (My mother swears it was all a joke, and nobody with any sense actually believed the whole mellow-yellow thing. I don't know, I was a small child.)

It's not gonna happen y'all. They can't regulate herbs, not to the extent everyone is afraid of happening. I seriously doubt my local PD could identify poppies from petunias! And you all know they can't sell sasafrass tea anymore (if you use the entire root instead of just the skin off the root, it's carcinogenic), but there's still tons of sasafrass growing in the woods around here. I'm not worried, not the least little bit.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

This was actually a threat also under Clinton during the HilaryCare of his first administration. This is nothing new, and it really does not matter which party is in charge apparently.

I recall being on the phone with Senator Dianne Feinstein's office with a letter 'supposedly' signed by her that she was in favor of this shut down on vitamins, minerals, and herbs...her office told me contradictory information and denied anything the letter said.

The federal government tried to do this under Eisenhower/Kennedy in the early 1960s. The bill that was under consideration at that time was so onerous that carrots and other fresh fruits and vegetables would have become a prescription item because the required limit amount for a vitamin A tablet was very low.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pamamidwife*
As in, stop running into GNC for the latest "pill of the week" as advertised by Prevention magazine and start researching this stuff on your own.
.

Are the pharmaceuticals not pushing drugs in magazine advertising also as the [lastest I cannot remember] being removed from the market for causing heart problems??

Not to mention that this is not the first time.

Furthermore, it is the action of the FDA, which came into existence one hundred years ago under the administration of TR when all drugs were regulated.


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## Aquaduct (Nov 27, 2003)

It really amuses me to read this thread. Some posters argue that herbs and supplements are sometimes dangerous and need to be regulated like medical drugs are.

Well first of all, let's get things into perspective. I like clear thinking on issues.

The third leading cause of death in the USA after cancer and heart disease is preventable medical injury from properly prescibed drugs. That is a fact.

As just one little example: the FDA has just withdrawn Vioxx, made by Merck, which had been on the market ( approved by the FDA) for 5 years. It is an anti-pain medication for arthritis sufferers. Over the 5 years this "regulated" drug was being used it managed to kill an estimated 58,000 Americans!!! They estimate that from the amount of people who died taking it in the large phase 3 trial as compared to the control group who got placebo.

Another very similar drug, Celebrix, made by Pfizer, (they're both cox 2 inhibitors) is being shown in phase 3 trials now complete to be just as dangerous. Hopefully it will be withdrawn too.

So excuse me, but I don't think herbs, acupuncture and supplements need regulating by western corporate pharmaceutical medicine's FDA. I think western corporate pharmaceutical medicine needs regulating by regulators drawn from holistic medical practionors. We need to stop the poorly regulated allopathic drugs from killing more people in the future.

When was the last time you heard of someone dying from an overdose of vitamin C, or from liver failure due to taking some herb? I am talking about a real case you know about, not some barmy accusation you heard third hand in the media. I personally don't know of anyone who has died from taking vitamin supplements, from seeing an osteopath, or from taking a herbal remedy.

Hey, it must be possible. In fact I am sure there are rare instances of someone reacting badly to a herbal mixture. I knew someone once who took echinacea for months on end to prevent getting colds, and she developed diarrhea because she'd killed all her stomach bacteria.

But man, I know tons of people who have been damaged by properly prescibed medical drugs and vaccines. My sister got damaged by a vaccine. My uncle took vioxx for a couple of years....he is ok, one of the lucky ones, but it was a close call because the longer you were on it apparently the higher the chance it would cause a stroke or heart attack. I was just talking today to a woman who said how she was on the pill for many years and how irritable and bad-tempered she had been a lot of the time while on it. And how she got off it recently because her rather alternative doctor told her she was crazy to stay on it when she was in danger of a heart attack. She'd had a heart attack while having a Caesarian...the anaesthetist caused it by overdosing her. So they put her on the pill to make sure she never falls pregnant again....said she would surely die if she had to give birth. But the pill depletes the body of essential vitamins and minerals, and wonks the hormones....and is linked to causing heart attacks!!!!

And so she came of it. And guess what...her bad moods cleared up as sooon as she did. Her husband is pretty relieved.

I tell you, these doctors are idiots. It is they who need regulating, not the herbalists and homeopaths. Seriously, the mortality rate would decrease substantially and permanently if all allopathic drugs and practices were banned tomorrow.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

: What a fantastic way to sum it all up!!!


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## treemom2 (Oct 1, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aquaduct*
I tell you, these doctors are idiots. It is they who need regulating, not the herbalists and homeopaths. Seriously, the mortality rate would decrease substantially and permanently if all allopathic drugs and practices were banned tomorrow.









Hmmmmm, something to think about. . . .


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dingogirl*
I think the FDA is too quick to approve some medications. Remember the problems with Fen Phen and HRT? And little is known about the long-term effects of Ritalin use.

The FDA did not approve thalidomide in this country, but that was the quick action of one woman in the FDA. The cases of thalidomide in this country were from people who brought the drug in to this country from other countries without prescriptions.

RE: Ritalin...it has been prescribed for over forty years; why is it that no long term studies have been done on the children who have received it?


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## mommytolittlelilly (Jul 7, 2004)

*Ideally* I think gov't regulation for herbal remedies is a good idea, because herbal remedies are drugs, too. Unfortunately, there seems to be a big conflict of interest for those in the FDA with big pharma/big money, so this "regulation" is not working.

My trouble is, I don't trust manufacturers of these herbal things anymore than I trust big pharma, since they are also out to make a buck at my expense. Also, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere at some time that some of these items have ingredients that aren't listed on the packaging and that you might not want to ingest (but I don't remember any specifics, so that probably won't sway any of you.) And yes, I know that's true for big pharma, too (thimerosal in vaccines, etc.).

I'd also like to point out the obvious in that just because something is "natural" that does not mean that it's safe or does not need to be regulated. Take, say lead, mercury or asbestos for example. While those things might not be in herbal remedies, what if manufacturers of products containing these things were to use this as an excuse for continuing to use these in their products?

So, I don't think there are any easy answers here!


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

I think its such a hot issue bc of the state our medical/insurance companies/drug companies are in these days. We are getting scammed!

SO some of us have found a way to take responsibility for our health care. We go to naturopaths, have multiple resources to read and inform ourselves on the use of herbs, supplements, vitamins......and for those of us who do this in a responsible way.....it works!

Im not for gov regulation at all. The costs will skyrocket, the quality will go down......and I dont trust the FDA at all! I thought with the gov getting involved in organic produce/products.....that it would make it better, and its not....just read whats going on with HORIZON.....proves the big guns get away with everything.


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aquaduct*
I tell you, these doctors are idiots. It is they who need regulating, not the herbalists and homeopaths. Seriously, the mortality rate would decrease substantially and permanently if all allopathic drugs and practices were banned tomorrow.

I gotta disagree with this.

First off, doctors - MDs, DOs, DCs, all of them - _are_ regulated. You (and I) may not like the regulation, and how well (ie poorly) it's working, but they are.

Secondly, you're mixing doctors - most of whom are basically good people, even if they've been duped into believing the fallacies fed to them by the pharmaceuticals - and the pharmaceutical mega corporations, which are, BY LAW, money-grubbing SOBs (a basic knowledge of corporate law will support what I mean).

Thirdly, rejecting allopathic medicine wholesale is just as shortsided as rejecting, say, osteopathic medicine wholesale. Without allopathic medicine, there would be no cesareans to help the motherbabies who have, say, complete placenta previa. Does that mean all allopathic medicine is good (and all cesareans are just)? Of course not! But it does do some good; there are some instances where using everything but allopathic medicine is not enough.

Finally, although sometimes (especially in the case of birth) I think allopathic medicine may be harming more than it's helping, I'm not willing to say that definitely. Yes, it definitely harms; but it also, sometimes, definitely helps. Mostly, I think it just misdirects energy and resources that could be spent on something (like lifestyle changes) that will actually help.

What we need is neither bringing herbal and alternative medicines under the (broken and corrupt) guidance currently overseeing all allopathic medicine, nor a complete rejection of allopathic medicine itself along with its (broken and corrupt) guidance system, but a new understanding of health altogether, one that respects the power and usefulness of all forms of medicine and wellness, and above all respects, and expects, an individual's ability to choose for themselves.

And, while I'm designing the perfect system







, I'd like to see more of allopathic medicine brought under the guidance of holistic principles and organizations, but I prefer not to spend too much of my time lost in pipe dreams...


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## Aquaduct (Nov 27, 2003)

Your opinion is a reasonable one, but I still disagree. Records show that when doctors have gone on strike in some countries the national deathrate goes down!!

When I first heard this I thought it was a joke. But after further investigation I believe it.

Granted some surgery, some allopathic interventions do save lives. But surgery like caesarians, gallbladder removal if gallstones are severe etc. would mostly be rendered unnecessary if the naturopaths and homeopaths took over because everyone would be so healthy, have such good dietary advice the no. of ops would tumble down. And for those ops still necessary to do it wouldn't take long to train up some homeopaths. Surgery is not as amazingly hard as it is made out to be. It is a bit of a secret really. But I know, I know, this is utopian stuff!

Still, it is worth thinking about. If allopathy was banned tomorrow what would happen? Cancer rates would crash because the real causes of it would have to be acknowledged. Children would start getting healthier and there would be far less autism, IDD, special needs, learning disorders etc. due to not getting brain damaging immune-depleting vaccines and antibiotics. Acute injuries and infections, which have never killed many anyway (except road accidents and suicides: I know this because I have looked at the mortality records) by comparision to chronic disease would be taken care of with herbs, homeopathics, osteopathic work, shiatsu, acupuncture etc.

The birth control pill would be no longer so cervical cancer and infertility would lessen overnight. Also a lot of breast cancers.

With Big Pharma gone the menopause industry with it's use of dangerous HRT would disappear. PMS, osteoporosis, and menopausal problems would be taken care of with progesterone creams, paid for by the state.

If Big Pharma/allopathy didn't exist the real causes of cancer would have to be acknowledged: chemical pollution (especially), poor nutrition, electro-magnetic pollution, vaccines, antibiotics, and emotional repression. Not just tobacco. This denial of the real causes is because of the big money connections between doctors, the pharmaceutical industry, researchers and the Food and chemical industries.

Linus Pauling's findings that vit. C deficiency (and also various other vitamin deficiencies) would be able to be acknowledged as the major cause of atherosclerosis and heart disease, so deaths would come down from that tremendously.

With deaths from cancer and heart disease, the two major causes of death in the West, coming down rapidly the mortality rates would take a further plunge because deaths from preventable medical injury, 99.999% recurring because of allopathy, would also be removed.

But I acknowledge this will never happen as long as we're making the lifestyle choices we do.....you know, heedlessly buying things made by sweated labour, driving polluting vehicles, eating fruit and veges grown Agribusinesses which don't give a toss about sustainability and the environment, supporting violent invasions of other countries on various pretexts etc. It is all karma in the end.

One really great and amazing thing about getting rid of allopathy would be that it would stop most vivisection overnight. Literally millions of animals would then be spared the disgusting cruelty that is daily inflicted on them by drug researchers. I often think it is the cruelty from that which creates a lot of the karmic side-effects of the pills.


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

Ah, but if allopathic practices were banned, homeopaths would be disallowed from doing surgery.

So what you're proposing is more a dismantling of the allopathic system, with the holistic systems and practitioners free to adopt the few necessary and beneficial allopathic practices - which is much more reasonable.

And I do think you're being overly optimistic about lack-of-allopathic leading automatically to acceptance-of-holistic. Would that be good? Oh my good Goddess, yes. But banning a practice isn't going to make it go away, or make people stop wanting it - which is part of the problem with the proposal to ban self-treatment with herbs and supplements.

I think we're basically in agreement, with just a few minor differences of opinion.


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## Aquaduct (Nov 27, 2003)

Yes, I think we basically agree. When I said "ban" I meant as in "disappeared". It could never be banned in reality because of the way our societies are run.

However I think if it was looked at honestly and seen for the money-grubbing corrupt and dangerous system it is, any fair-minded society that had it's citizens best interests at heart would ban it all tomorrow, except for surgery.

And even with surgery there would have to be a lot more regulation. There is far too much of it done which is very unnecessary. ie. In my country (New Zealand), a thousand legs of diabetics a year are amputated. This could easily be prevented by use of chelation therapy, mega doses of intravenous vit. C, and better regulation of the Food and Sugar industries, and of course, better education via health providers.


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## Elowyn (Nov 3, 2003)

Y'know, Aquaduct, I'm trying reeeally hard not to take this personally, but sometimes those diabetic legs? That's because the *patient* won't follow any sort of healthy diet, but sits there eating Twinkies while having his blood drawn for his screening labs!! The individual with the problem may need to take responsibility for him/herself just once in a great freaking while. I would personally guarantee that 900 of those 1000 diabetics were to some extent self-inflicting their disease through poor management/noncompliance. But yeah - let's get rid of the surgeons - leave that gangrenous leg *on* I say, and let him die of sepsis! All the chelation & etc. in the world won't keep people from doing whatever they damn well please, including eating crap, drinking crap, smoking crap, sitting around on their rears watching Oprah, the works.


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## dingogirl (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:

However I think if it was looked at honestly and seen for the money-grubbing corrupt and dangerous system it is, any fair-minded society that had it's citizens best interests at heart would ban it all tomorrow, except for surgery.
The vitamin and herb folks are making a lot of money too. I'm all for natural medicine, but to ban all allopathic practices seems a bit much. If it weren't for my Psychiatrist, I'd probably be dead. Major depression is a serious illness. Talk therapy, vitamins and herbs won't cure it.

You need to be careful with herbs. Some herbs have been shown to contain lead: http://www.epa.nsw.gov.au/leadsafe/remedies.htm

I know some really nice, caring doctors who sincerely are trying to help people. There's good and bad in all.


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## Aquaduct (Nov 27, 2003)

Actually I think chelation therapy would indeed help prevent most legs of diabetics which have gone gangrenous from being amputated. I know a very smart doctor who has been successfully been doing that...swimming against all the prejudices of his profession.

As for diabetics being lazy and irresponsible there is some truth in that, but I also believe that given a break from all the relentless manipulative advertising, and given much better information (ie. decent epose documentaries on TV of the corruption of the food and sugar industries, based on research in the book "Fast Food Nation" by Schlosser et al), and if we could redesign urban areas to encourage exercise ie. make cycleways de rigeur, more parks, walkways, ban motorways, more public transport etc.), and got rid of supermarkets and packaged food....in short started basing society on sustainable patterns, instead of the rampant consumeristic chaos which it is at the moment, then instead of increasing diabetes would decrease rapidly.


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## mommytolittlelilly (Jul 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dingogirl*
The vitamin and herb folks are making a lot of money too. I'm all for natural medicine, but to ban all allopathic practices seems a bit much. If it weren't for my Psychiatrist, I'd probably be dead. Major depression is a serious illness. Talk therapy, vitamins and herbs won't cure it.

You need to be careful with herbs. Some herbs have been shown to contain lead: http://www.epa.nsw.gov.au/leadsafe/remedies.htm

I know some really nice, caring doctors who sincerely are trying to help people. There's good and bad in all.


Yes! I knew I had read somewhere that lead was in some of those natural herbal remedies. Thank you for posting the link.


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## huggerwocky (Jun 21, 2004)

Isn't there anything between prescription and available at the supermarket?In Germany for example some medication/high doses of vitamins/herbs/fill in the blank are sold without prescription but only at pharmacies.I think that's a good solution.


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *huggerwocky*
Isn't there anything between prescription and available at the supermarket?In Germany for example some medication/high doses of vitamins/herbs/fill in the blank are sold without prescription but only at pharmacies.I think that's a good solution.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but what about the people who don't live near pharmacies? Or the pharmacists who "don't believe" in using that type of medicine, and refuse to dispense it (that's happened with birth controll pills before)?

I'm not saying it's not a good idea, it's just, like all these other ideas, imperfect.


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## Goddess3_2005 (Oct 20, 2004)

Ok, I guess I just compleatly missed my own posr, sick kids this week, but I received another email from my fatrher an NMD thought I would pass along what he sent...

CODEX ALIMENTARUS is coming. Currently, compliance with the complicated and destructive regulations of CODEX ALIMENTARIUS is voluntary but can be enforced by trade sanctions imposed on the World Trade Organization. In July, 2005, these regulations will become mandatory for all WTO members and that includes the United States. And once it gets here, it will be illegal to buy, sell, recommend or use any but 28 ultra-low dose nutrients, natural supplements, herbs, enzymes or other natural treatments whether you are a licensed health professional or not. The only legal health option left will be the pharmaceutical one. CODEX ALIMENTARIUS regulations have been approved in the EU, Canada and Australia. The United States is next unless we act decisively. These regulations are passed quietly and without effective public notice but have grave and devastating impact on health freedom. Here in the United States, the "harmonization" laws which will enact CODEX ALIMENTARIUS have been defeated by Congress several times, each time by a smaller margin. Given the composition of the current Congress, it is virtually certain that it will be passed unless we make sure that does not happen.
CODEX ALIMENTARIUS is the result of a complex relationship between the United Nations (which established the CODEX ALIMENTARIUS Commission in 1962), the World Trade Organization (which was authorized to enforce CODEX ALIMENTARIUS through trade sanctions), the World Health Organization (which subscribes to the CODEX ALIMENTARIUS regulations despite the fact that they directly and explicitly conflict with their own findings and policies such as the FAO/WHO official publication, "Diet, Nutrition and the Prevention of Chronic Diseases", the Food and Agriculture Organization, our FDA and our USDA working in concert with industry representatives of (and other unofficially representing the interests of) the pesticide, chemical, pharmaceutical and dairy industries. Consumers, health scientists, physicians and other practicing natural medicine and other health-focused voices have been totally absent from official CODEX ALIMENTARIUS deliberations. A few observers have been present at official deliberations but they have not been permitted to speak in the sessions. Of course, the real work of such a complex regulatory structure takes place outside of those official sessions. And none of the health advocates have had access to those meetings, agreements and sessions. Yet they will take away our health freedoms if we allow ourselves to be "harmonized"

NUTRIENTS AND SUPPLEMENTS: CODEX ALIMENTARIUS sets maximum allowable dosages of permitted substances and forbids all others (and all dosages higher than that found in foods). In Europe, the standard for implementation of CODEX ALIMENTARIUS is being set by the European Supplements Directive which specifies that only a total of 28 supplements are allowed at ultra low, sub-clinical doses. ALL OTHER NUTRITIONAL MATERIALS WILL BECOME ILLEGAL SUBSTANCESon August 1, 2005. There are some impractical options for a few nutrients to become permissible as prescription drugs but the cost and stipulations are so difficult that it is unlikely any nutrients will pass this set of hurdles. Virutally every nutrient at any effective dose will be banned in Europe. We can expect exactly the same results here in the US. Heroin is an illegal substance: that is the model. Your doctor cannot write you a prescription for heroin. You cannot buy, sell, make, distribute or use heroine. Vitamin C, for example, at any dosage higher than 200 mg per day will be illegal. A gram of Vitamin C will be an illegal substance! The dose of Co Q 10 which has been shown to resolve breast cancer in some patients (400 mg per day) will be illegal because Co Q 10 will be totally illegal at any dose following the European Supplements Directive model. Only 28 nutrients will be allowed, but the maximum upper limits have been set so low that they have little or no clinical impact in keeping us healthy and none at all in returning us to a state of health if we are ill. And those which are available will be exorbitantly priced.

CODEX ALIMENTARIUS specifies that supplements and nutrients may not be used to prevent, treat or cure any disorder. And yet more than 80% of Americans supplements for exactly these purposes. Nutritional and environmental physicians, naturopaths, nutritionists, chiropractors and a host of other licensed health professionals employ hundreds of natural minerals, supplements and herbs precisely for because they are effective in preventing, treating and curing many diseases. These natural health options will become illegal if the US is "harmonized" with the World Trade Organization because compliance with CODEX ALIMENTARIUS will no longer be voluntary (as it is now). Health food stores are major sources of these essential substances. They will no longer be able to provide them. Most health food stores and privately owned nutrient manufacturers will, we believe, no longer be in business after CODEX ALIMENTARIUS takes effect.
Since most people on the planet do not use pharmaceutical drugs (either because they cannot afford them or because they prefer their traditional medical treatments), most of humanity will be left without legal treatment options. Even if pharmaceutical treatments were to be made aviailalbe world-wide, however, there is a substantial body of opinion that holds that, especially for chronic diseases, pharmaceutical medicine's risks are not worth the small benefit gained in the treatment of chronic, degenerative diseases. The Natural Solutions Foundation believe that those who chose natural options must have that right.

HERBS: CODEX ALIMENTARIUS stipulates which conditions may be treated using herbs. Only minor, self-limited conditions may be treated by herbal means. Treating any other conditions with herbal remedies will constitute a crime. Some complex oriental herbal formulas may be permitted but most will be lost. Ayurvedic, Tibetan, tribal and other traditional medicines which use herbs and natural substances will be forbidden world-wide.

TOXINS: CODEX ALIMENTARIUS sets permissible upper limits for pesticide residues, toxic chemicals in the environment, hormones in food and other environmental contaminants which are many times higher than levels advocated by chemical and pesticide industry lobbying groups. Current toxic levels are already responsible for most of the cancers, heart disease, autism, chronic degenerative conditions and organ failures which are killing people at increasing rates around the globe. Making permissible toxic levels higher will accelerate this destructive world-wide trend. The Natural Solutions Foundation believes that health freedom extends to the freedom to live in a non-toxic world and have clean, safe and wholesome foods to sustain us in that world.

IRRADIATION OF FOOD: CODEX ALIMENTARIUS makes irradiation of food legal and mandatory under circumstances now hotly contested by food safety advocates. Allegedly designed to "protect us from food borne illness", the irradiation of food is by no means agreed to be a safe procedure (by non-industry scientists) since there is considerable scientific evidence that protein structures are modified in unhealthy ways by introducing ionizing radiation into food before it is consumed.

GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS: CODEX ALIMENTARIUS makes the un-labeled use of GMOs legal in all foods under all circumstances although there is significant opposition to the widespread use of GMOs at this time. Farmers in Iraq, for example, must purchase their seeds from Monsanto and are forbidden from retaining seed crops under the new Iraqi constitution. Similar laws exist in other less exotic places. Many GMOs have been genetically engineered so that seeds WILL NOT GERMINATE without the use of specific pesticides (such as Roundup by Monsanto). In fact, mounting scientific evidence makes it clear that birth defects, chemical sensitivity, chronic fatigue syndrome, asthma, severe allergies and a host of other conditions may be either enhanced or caused by increased pesticide exposure (which these crops will require). GMOs themselves are far from scientifically established as safe for either the planet or its people by objective, non-industry scientists. Genetic drift through the spread of GMO genetic material is recognized as a major threat to the biological integrity of the entire earth.

NO HEALTH REPRESENTATION: CODEX ALIMENTARIUS has been formulated (and is being expanded) by the CODEX ALLIMENTARIUS Commission which meets without the effective presence or participation of significant consumer or health advocates, supplement manufactures, natural health professionals or other non-pharmaceutically oriented group. The representatives from the United States to the CODEX ALIMENTARIUS Commission meetings have well-documented, very unwholesome conflicts of interest with the very industries that stand to profit and benefit from the wholesale implementation of the CODEX ALIMENTARIUS standards.


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## dingogirl (Sep 9, 2002)

Codex Alimentarius
Over the past few weeks, Codex Alimentarius has been rediscovered and panicked emails are bubbling through the internet -- with a number of them making their way to the Foundation email inbox. So let's deal with the issue here so we don't have to deal with it hundreds of times individually.

What Is Codex?
The official statement reads as follows.

The Codex Alimentarius Commission was created in 1963 by FAO (Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations) and WHO (World Health Organization) to develop food standards, guidelines and related texts such as codes of practice under the Joint FAO/WHO Food Standards Programme. The main purposes of this Programme are protecting health of the consumers and ensuring fair trade practices in the food trade, and promoting coordination of all food standards work undertaken by international governmental and non-governmental organizations.

Now that sounds downright civilized. Why would anyone object to it?

Click here for a very nice reasoned explanation of the problem on the American Holistic Health Association website. http://ahha.org/CodexWalter2005.htm

For those of you who don't want to read the entire article above, then in short:

Codex is indeed a bad thing, but the emails circulating the net are a bit alarmist (at least in the United States).
Codex is designed to serve as an international guideline for vitamin and mineral supplement products.
The section of Codex causing the most furor in the alternative health community is the criteria by which the maximum amounts of vitamins and minerals that will be allowed in a supplement product are determined. Codex states that "... upper safe levels of vitamins and mineral established by scientific risk assessment based on generally accepted scientific data...."
Oh yes, big surprise. Codex is heavily backed by the international pharmaceutical companies, particularly the German companies Hoechst, Bayer and BASF.
What Does It Mean?
The key is that officially the Codex Guidelines are optional suggestions. On the other hand, if disputes arise between countries, the World Trade Organization can use the optional guidelines to enforce trade disputes. The great unknown is how that all plays out. I believe that if push comes to shove, and they tried to impose unacceptable guidelines, the furor would be monumental (at least in the US that is).

So far Codex has advanced as much as it has because it has been put together in back rooms and largely out of the spotlight. Yes, a number of people know about and have issued warnings concerning it, but it hasn't really registered yet on the mass consciousness.

I believe that if Codex is used to eliminate right of access to dietary supplements, any restrictions achieved will ultimately be seen as Pyrrhic victories. The restrictions will serve to awaken a sleeping giant (the silent international consumer base of dietary supplement users) and fill them with a terrible resolve.

http://www.jonbarron.org/newsletters/news050314.htm


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## Aquaduct (Nov 27, 2003)

Thanks for that. When will people wake up to the fact that Big Money does not, DOES NOT want people to be healthy. It is better for their stocks if people are sick and reliant on drugs and vaccines.

These people at the top who benefit financially don't care if lots of people are actually getting sicker from their medicines. They do care if people are getting more well from things like vitamins and herbs....that affects their bottom line.

Did someone mention lead being found in a herbal remedy? Look for goodness sake, I wish people would show as much interest in what the ingredients are in allopathic drugs. How 'bout the mercury in adult vaccines like tetanus, flu shots and hep. B? How 'bout the fact it used to be in all child vaccines until a few years ago? Mercury is much more poisonous than lead as any toxicologist will tell you. It is the most poisonous non-radioactive natural element on this planet in fact.
How about the poisonous fluoride that the authorities are medicating your tap water with? How about the mercury that many dentists are still sticking in people's mouths? How about the anti-freeze that has often replaced the mercury in the childhood vaccines? How about the aluminium that is many current vaccines? Aluminium is a potent neurotoxin.

And what about the incredibly potent radiation of a CAT scan? It is many times more strong than a chest x-ray....the virtual equivalent some have said of standing on the periphery of Hiroshima when the A-Bomb went off in 1945.

How about the incredibly dangerous (to your liver) use by allopathy of artificial vitamin A in the anti-acne medication Roaccutane? It seems it is ok for them to use vitamins any way they please. A lot of teenagers who use it are having nervous breakdowns not long after, as well as developing other health problems.


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## dingogirl (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:

Did someone mention lead being found in a herbal remedy? Look for goodness sake, I wish people would show as much interest in what the ingredients are in allopathic drugs.
That was me. Lead is in several herbal remedies. Yes, there are some pretty nasty substances in vaccines and many medications have bad side effects, which is why I try to stick to natural medicne. But if there's lead in some herbs, I'd like to know. I'd like to see some quality control there.


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## Aquaduct (Nov 27, 2003)

Well, can't disagree with that. Just hope it doesn't turn out to be the kind of quality control which got Australia'a largest manufacturer of vitamin supplements closed down a couple of years ago. That was Pan Pharmacueticals. One of their products gave some vertigo or something to someone and so they had the whole plant closed down after forcing a massive recall of all their products in Australia and New Zealand. It cost health shops big-time. But Pan Pharmaceuticals is gone forever.


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## dingogirl (Sep 9, 2002)

I talked to the manager about it. She said it was kind of a pain to have to remove all the products, but that it didn't hurt her business, as most customers didn't bother asking for their money back.

Here are the quality control problems that were encountered at Pan:

Specifically, issues identified by the Expert Group included:

Misidentification (mix-up) of raw materials, especially herbal materials, which could lead to severe organ damage, including renal and hepatic damage;
Cross-contamination or substitution of ingredients due to inadequate operating procedures and poor compliance with existing procedures could lead to severe allergic reactions including anaphylaxis;
Microbiological contamination through poor raw material sourcing and handling, poor cleaning practices, and inadequate operating procedures, could lead to infections.
The Expert Group concluded that the risk would increase over time and could be realised at any time.

Specific risks included:

Substitution of shark cartilage for bovine cartilage which could cause severe allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis, in fish-protein sensitive individuals;
Substitution of bovine cartilage for shark cartilage where the bovine cartilage has been sourced without any assurance that it is TSE-free, and the country of origin is unknown; and
Bovine colostrum obtained from non-approved suppliers where the raw material could be sourced from a TSE 'at risk' country, and where the source is unknown.
Top of page

The Expert Group also noted a number of products described in the auditors' report for which there potentially could be safety concerns as a result of poor product quality. These included vitamin A products, pancreatic enzyme products, multiple herbal products, several OTC medicines and a prescription medicine.

http://www.tga.health.gov.au/docs/ht...el/mrpan10.htm


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## Aquaduct (Nov 27, 2003)

Even if all that is true, it doesn't sound that bad to me. To close down a whole business?

You are completely wrong about it not costing others a lot of money. A lot of supplement companies I hear were reliant on Pan to supply them, and it is estimated NZ (I live in New Zealand) supplement companies lost about 20 million.

Let's look at by contrast the way they treat a major supplier of vaccines. Specifically Chiron Corporation. It got rapped for doing something very wrong in the way it made flu shots in one of its English plants. The plant is temporarily closed and so the USA doesn't get all its flu shots for the winter. Chiron has plants all over the world but they are not closed down. This is not the first time they have been in trouble like this.

Another example. The manufacturers of polio shots knew from early on that their vaccines , because they use ground up monkey kidneys to incubate the polio viruses, were contaminated with simian virus no. 40. There were a whole lot of other monkey viruses in there as well; it was called 40 since it was the 40th researchers had found. Dr. Eunice Eddy I think it was, was the scientist who discovered it, and blew the whistle. I believe she got demoted for going to this trouble. This monkey virus is linked with causing cancers, and is a powerful immunesuppressor. Do you think the companies that made these dangerous polio vaccines ever got closed down? No way, they were allowed to get away with it. In fact there is evidence that SV40 is still a contaminant of polio shots. See www.ouralexander.com

There is such a huge double standard going on here.

Can you honestly tell me Dingo-girl that Pan Pharmacueticals deserved the treatment it got when Pfizer and Merck (giant pharmacuetical companies) who make celebrix and vioxx between them, anti-arthritic pain medications that have killed an estimated 10s of thousands of Americans over the last 5 years (Vioxx alone killed 58000), get no penalties? In fact Merck only had to withdraw vioxx and may get to reintroduce it to the market. Pfizer didn't even have to withdraw celebrix.

If you tell me that is fair and honest treatment, that the regulators are not prejudiced and bought off, then you seriously need to look at your reasoning. Pan didn't kill anyone. They allegedly made a few people sick. Merck killed 58,000 with just one product. For this reason there is no way I will support more regulations for vitamin suppliers because I know that idea will be used to try to kill them off.


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## Attila the Honey (Mar 15, 2003)

I agree that ideally regulation would be good, but in this society, now? Bad. I am all for working to stop this from happening, but I guess I am somewhat resigned because I think eventually this (or something like this) WILL happen thanks to the strength and greed of drug companies.

But, honestly, you can't give up hope. I strongly believe everything we need to stay healthy grows where we live. Most plants have 'versions' in most climates - here in PA we have wild ginger, ginseng... My husband studied plant identification and herb foraging with a local herbalist and learned that basically, there is no real need to buy herbs.

Until they pave the world and paint it green, the stuff will always be available. Start educating yourself and plant a garden, but keep signing those petitions and making phone calls!


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## Aquaduct (Nov 27, 2003)

Oh, and by the way, you mentioned being depressed and owing your life to your psychiatrist and his anti-depressents. Homeopathy is very effective in treating depression, and in a real curative way, not via suppressing of feelings which is the allopathic way. I have seen lots of video cases of people having their emotional lives vastly improved via homeopathic treatment. Bach flower remedies can also be effective.
And I also know lots of people who have been helped by the so-called talk therapies. They are not quick fix solutions, but then I think the best solutions usually aren't. Cognitive therapy, psychosynthesis, Jungian therapy....are all I am sure very worthwhile. Don't write them off before you have tried them Dingo-girl.

And we should be wary of the drug solutions. There are all sorts of untoward side-effects with them ie. suicidal ideation with Aropax. Basic numbing of feeling is probably the most common effect.
The main active ingredient of prozac for example is a form of fluoride. Fluoride is good at numbing us to our feelings.


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## dingogirl (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:

If you tell me that is fair and honest treatment, that the regulators are not prejudiced and bought off, then you seriously need to look at your reasoning. Pan didn't kill anyone.
I totally agree. Pfizer, Merck, Lily-corrupt. Vaccines scare me. I don't vaccinate my children.

I know there's a double standard. I'm just saying I'd like to see some quality control all around.

So, Homeopathy works for major depression? That's news to me. When I told my Homeopath I had major depression, he didn't say anything. I'll have to ask him about it again. I used to take Prozac for mild depression, then switched to accupuncture and the depression went away. I know the anti-depressants have side effects. Are you sure they contain fluoride? I checked all the ingredients on the net, but fluoride wasn't one of them. I have a book called Your Drug May Be Your Problem How And Why To Stop Taking Psychiatric Medications. Breggin doesn't mention fluoride. Anyway, I'm very aware of the negative side effects of antidepressants. I used to tell everyone about the dangers of them.

This depression I have just came out of nowhere. I was feeling fine, then bam! I woke up with major depression. I tried acupuncture and Tryptophan, but it didn't work. My nurse, who's into alternative medicine said for major depression the only thing that works unfortunately are anti depressants along with talk therapy. But I don't intend to be on the antidepressants forever. Just a year.

It would be great if alternative medicine were able to cure all our illnesses, but it can't. Sometimes you have to take medication.


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## Aquaduct (Nov 27, 2003)

Oh well, you sound pretty reasonable to me Dingogirl. But yes, homeopathy is very good with major depression, but it would take time and probably a few different remedies.

I have suffered depression in the past and actually got a lot of benefit from cranial osteopathy, which is an offshoot from osteopathy. Homeopathy helped me a fair bit recently when I was fairly depressed before Christmas. I do tend to believe that it doesn't happen for no reason at all. I like to look at my thought patterns and attitudes because I know they "direct" the way my feelings go. You know, the old is the glass half full, or half empty scenario.
to be honest I think a lot of modern day depression stems from people living isolated and somewhat selfish lives (I'm not saying you). I have found that having a purpose outside of myself that involves giving or some kind of service to others has been very beneficial to me in terms of lifting moods. It is about love really and feeling connected, feeling a part of community. This is seldom addressed when people seek the quick-fix solutions. And ultimately even homeopathy can't cure if the fundamental lifestyle choices are unskilful, if there is a lack of awareness.

Fluoride is not the main active ingredient of prozac, but rather a form of fluoride. From memory it is called something like fluoroxine or something. Breggin should have mentioned it in his book. I'm sure he has somewhere. Anyway it is a fact and I'll get back with it's actual name.


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## Mommymama (Aug 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dingogirl*
Codex is indeed a bad thing, but the emails circulating the net are a bit alarmist (at least in the United States).

Acutally I believe the danger is very real:

*A Nightmare Come True*

The FDA's wildest dream -- and our worst nightmare -- is about to come true. Two years ago, I told you about the passage of the European Union (EU) Directive on Dietary Supplements. This directive, which is part of a larger form of legislation called Codex Alimentarius, severely restricts access to natural health products in Europe. At the time, it probably seemed a long way off. After all, the law wasn't to go into effect for several years following the initial passage.
Unfortunately, that several years is up, and the EU Directive is on track to take full effect in August 2005 -- less than a year from now -- and by 2007, the scene described above will certainly be a reality for many, many people.
Obviously, this is devastating news for Europe. But thanks to some pre-existing international agreements made by the United States, the EU Directive will be just as devastating for the natural health community here. The main difference is that while the directive has been big news in Europe for some time, it's been virtually ignored by U.S. media, which means that the severe restrictions it calls for will sneak up on most people and rob us all of our freedom to choose natural alternatives before we even know what's happening.
That's why I and many of my colleagues in the health publishing world have done our best to keep you informed of the directive's developments -- and their consequences for the United States -- over the years.
Simply put, we're down to the wire, and if we don't act immediately, we will be facing the same fate as Europeans. There are steps you can take to get the word out and, hopefully, to diffuse this ticking time bomb. But first, let's take a few minutes and recount some of the specifics included in the directive so that you know exactly what it is we're fighting against.

*5,000 Products Set to Disappear*

The EU Directive classifies vitamins and minerals in Europe as "medical drugs" rather than dietary supplements, which means that they're subject to government regulation in terms of dosage and availability.
It gets worse: There are many nutrients known to be vital to optimal health that are not on the government's RDA nutrient list including chromium picolinate, lysine, and selenium. Under the directive, these types of supplements are banned from over-the-counter sale. Put simply, it will be illegal to buy them without a prescription.

Remainder at:

http://www.mercola.com/2004/oct/13/v...s_minerals.htm


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## dingogirl (Sep 9, 2002)

Are there any people out there living in Europe who can tell us what's going on?

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/hi/news/5037352.html


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## dingogirl (Sep 9, 2002)

Found some more info:

Understanding "Codex"...

Opinion by Consumer Advocate Tim Bolen

Sunday, February 20th, 2005

I get a lot of e-mails, phone calls, and personal requests to "get involved" in the "Codex" problem. Until today, you haven't heard anything from me on the subject. Why?

Because, simply, I haven't yet figured out exactly what's happening with the whole thing. I, myself, have been asking questions of my contacts all over the world. I have a lot of contacts.

From my research, and it has only begun, and the research and observations of others whose opinions I respect, I've reached some tentative conclusions and, using the scientific method, have come up with a working hypothesis, and some possibilities for solution. I'm going to share my thinking, and observations, with you.

(1) The "Codex" issue is NOT about stopping supplements worldwide. It is about Big Pharma TAKING OVER, and completely controlling the supplement industry...

To see the rest of the article, go to the following website: http://www.quackpotwatch.org/index.html
and type in "Codex" in the search engine. Article is called "Understanding Codex."


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## dingogirl (Sep 9, 2002)

Codex update:
Bulletin: EU Food Directive Held Invalid - 04/05/05

Details here: http://www.alliance-natural-health.o...on=news&ID=151

EU Advocate General held: "The Food Supplements Directive infringes the principle of proportionality because basic principles of Community law, such as the requirements of legal protection, of legal certainty and of sound administration have not properly been taken into account."

The European Court is expected to uphold this determination in June, thereby preserving access to Dietary Supplements. The Codex threat (see below) remains real, but this is a great victory that will allow the Health Freedom Movement to go from defense to offense: we want our rights under DSHEA (the 1994 law that allows health claims for vitamins) to be strengthened and we want the rest of the world's food supplement rules harmonized to our freedoms!

Congratulations to the Alliance and all its supporters!

Ralph Fucetola JD - http://www.vitaminlawyernews.com
____________________

The United Nations' Codex Guidelines for dietary supplements are expected to be finalized sometime this summer. These guidelines will have provisions for establishing recommended upper limits on the amounts of each nutrient to be permitted in dietary supplements.

It is currently projected that these upper limits may be restrictive. Some authorities see no threat from the Codex Guidelines to the availability of dietary supplements in the U.S., while others insist that these Codex recommendations, which are totally voluntary, will in some way be imposed on the U.S. through the World Trade Organization that recognizes Codex standards in some trade disputes.

Some are concerned that if these restrictive standards are adopted by the United Nations and the European Union, it will greatly strengthen drug companies and other opponents of dietary supplements in their efforts to have more restrictive legislation passed in the United States.

However, after consulting with our regulatory attorney and considering this issue carefully we believe at present there appears to be no clear or immediate threat and no clear action to take. We at Emerson Ecologics, along with the American Association for Health Freedom, and other organizations, will be carefully monitoring Codex developments.

http://www.quackpotwatch.org/index.html


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## sahli29 (Jan 23, 2004)

I would really be angry if I had to go to a doctor and pay $75 or more per visit just to get some vitamins and herb scripts. I understand the desire to protect people from companies that sell products that don't contain what the ingredient lists,but having everything by perscription is not the answer. I have written my reps. as well.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mattemma04*
I have written my reps. as well.

This is the first time I have written my reps and have NOT got a single response back. Very disturbing.


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## Mommymama (Aug 23, 2002)

I've sent an email from the Health Action site:

http://www.healthactioncenter.org/ac...p=2&item=26227

I've got a very vague response from Senator Boxer and this from Senator Feinstein:

" Thank you for writing to express your concerns regarding the
Codex Alimentarius legislation proposed under the World Trade
Organization (WTO). I appreciate the time you took to write.

I understand your serious concern regarding this issue. As you
know, the WTO is an international body which addresses the rules of
trade between countries. At its heart are the WTO agreements,
negotiated and signed by the bulk of the world's trading nations, which
provide the legal ground-rules for international commerce. They are
essentially contracts, binding governments to keep their trade policies
within agreed limits.

The availability of dietary supplements to the public is
important, but it is equally important that these supplements do not put
the consumer's health at stake. I believe that if we are to ensure the
safety of those who consume dietary supplements, we must make sure
that these supplements are not hazardous to their health. We cannot
allow deaths, such as those caused by the dietary supplement Ephedra, to
continue. Please know that I will continue to monitor the work of the
WTO and be sure to keep your thoughts in mind as I do so.

Again, thank you for writing. I hope that you will continue to
keep me informed of your views and concerns. If you should have
further questions regarding this or any other issue, please do not hesitate
to contact my Washington, D.C office at (202) 224-3841, or visit my
website at http://feinstein.senate.gov"

If they are so concerned about public health why don't they monitor the deaths caused by Vioxx first? Or perhaps take a peek at the VAERS database?


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