# Can I hear some cio FAILURE stories?



## yllek (Jan 22, 2004)

In my real life, I belong to a few mom groups where the assumption is that while AP is benevolent, CIO actually _works_. Now, I don't really get this, because I co-sleep with my ds, and we both get sleep. But I know that there are many stories about co-sleeping situations that don't work out well. The thing is, I almost never hear stories about CIO that has gone badly. Maybe this is the wrong group of folks to ask, but has anyone tried (or knows someone who has tried) CIO, and it didn't turn out to be the magic sleeping bullet after all?


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

CIOer's always stand by it. But here are some things I've gleaned.

One family chose to not go camping because the experience of co-sleeping in a tent meant they had to CIO all over again when they got home.

ALL of them had the experience that when their kid moved to a toddler bed they kept getting out of bed to find mommy and daddy. (IE once the bars were gone.)

I would go to CIO'ers house and their supposedly good sleepers were upstairs bawling and the parents just turned down the baby monitors.

The family I know who decided to just CIO with their 2 year old recently feel great about it even though some nights she screams for an hour. And it doesn't sound like it's getting better. They just have decided not to care.

CIO parents seem to decide it's working for them. i haven't seen too much evidence that it works so great for kids though. An exception is one family I know whose baby had day/night reversal. Then again, i wasn't at the house so it's heresay.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

I've never done it, and never been even tempted. But I know one family who have with three kids. They swear by it, and make digs at me constantly about how their children 'learned' to sleep and take naps when they were told.

Thing is, though, that whenever I've been there at bedtime, there is a battle over going to bed, staying in bed, going to sleep, etc etc etc. So, to me, it doesnt look like it 'worked'. But I guess they assume that all kids fight these battles for years about staying in bed. They think people who lie down with thier kids to get them to sleep are permissive and crazy.

I lie down with dds until they go to sleep. And my bedtimes are far less fraught and take a fraction of the time that their's takes. It's taken a few years to get to this stage, but heck, I'd rather have my kids to put to bed any day than theirs.

Purely anecdotal, but it makes me feel vindicated.


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## yllek (Jan 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum*
Purely anecdotal, but it makes me feel vindicated.

Actually, the desire to feel somewhat vindicated is the reason why I started this thread.


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## IncaMama (Jun 23, 2004)

i know lots of women who practice CIO, in real life and online. for a lot of them, it really has worked for them and their families and their kids sleep really well...there are a few qualifications on that, though.

1. most of them have issues sleeping away from home/their cribs and aren't as flexible. they have been sleep trained so when things go normally, they're perfect...but sometimes they're TOO trained and can't handle changes.

2. some of them STILL CIO for 45min-1hr a night (some less). still. after 2 years of CIO. i don't think that's success.

3. a lot of them talk about how their children aren't cuddly...don't like to be held, don't like to sit on laps, don't like snuggles, etc...of course there's no way to know if it has anything to do with CIO but none of the people i know who don't practice CIO have told me the same about their kids.

i've never done CIO even for 30 seconds. i just don't think it's right for my family. and there are nights that i wish i could just plop him in bed and walk away. of course there are...but most of the time, i'm glad that i have such a snuggler...i'm glad that he's SOOOO flexible that he can sleep anywhere. he always needs someone with him to fall asleep, but as long as that can happen he's good to go.









i do not regret my parenting decisions about not doing CIO at all. i'm proud of them.


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## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

I babysat a little girl whose parents did CIO. As a toddler the parents told me how she was a CIO success. I watched her for several years and as she moved into childhood (5 years old) her sleep became more and more difficult. She would get up screaming in the night, wouldn't stay in her bed, and woke several times a night. She was too big to be stuck in a crib, and so now she was demanding the night-time parenting she hadn't gotten when she was younger. Now I am sure other factors were involved, but it was almost like they sacrificed her easy sleep later in childhood for temporary good sleep when she was a toddler. My dd on the other hand, needed to be nursed or walked to sleep, and was a frequent night-nurser until she was 3 1/2. She is now the type of kid who you can say "time for bed" and she will just go to sleep on her own, and stay asleep. It is amazing! I think it has somewhat to do with her getting everything she needed early on, so now she has an increased independence because she has such a firm foundation.


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *farmer mama*
I babysat a little girl whose parents did CIO. As a toddler the parents told me how she was a CIO success. I watched her for several years and as she moved into childhood (5 years old) her sleep became more and more difficult. She would get up screaming in the night, wouldn't stay in her bed, and woke several times a night. She was too big to be stuck in a crib, and so now she was demanding the night-time parenting she hadn't gotten when she was younger. Now I am sure other factors were involved, but it was almost like they sacrificed her easy sleep later in childhood for temporary good sleep when she was a toddler. My dd on the other hand, needed to be nursed or walked to sleep, and was a frequent night-nurser until she was 3 1/2. She is now the type of kid who you can say "time for bed" and she will just go to sleep on her own, and stay asleep. It is amazing! I think it has somewhat to do with her getting everything she needed early on, so now she has an increased independence because she has such a firm foundation.

I have a freind whose daughter is just like this!At one point, she would get up and want them to make a little bed for her outside hteir door, but they kept her outside. I also notice their kids are crying alot and never seem to want to go to bed.Now, my kids cry before bed because they have hit meltdown and changing/putting nightime diapers on is just too much for them. I alos put a toddler, and baby to bed at once in a huge armchair-so we all have to be ready. But I have never seen anything succesful if you will about the cio toddler. Dd started sleeping through the night at 11 months. And now, wakes up occasionally. but I am right there- so nobody loses sleep and I don't have to worry about her running around the house, or getting in the fridge.Etc etc.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quick thought-

My toddler falls asleep after 15 minutes of nursing/cuddling and sleeps all night.

MY CIO friends' kids either get a bedtime routine that lasts anywhere from 1/2 and hour to over and hour and/or they end up crying for a long time before falling asleep.

To me this is a lot ofa hassle to avoid cuddling a child to sleep.

Yeah, my dd didn't sleep through the night till after the age of two- but I agree that you put in effort at the beginning and reap rewards later.

CIO is a quick fix. It may work at first for infants, but you still have to deal with the issues later.


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

Also, how can anything which fosters insecurity, and distrust of parental figures be good in the long run?







I am pretty sure I was left to cry it out and I have had to deal with some issues as an adult. I asked my mom once if I slep with them. She said calmly and surely-"oh, yeah,you were RIGHT there." I said"right where mom?" "Oh, right there in your crib in your room"
















But I used to crawl in bed with them almost every night. And I hated going to bed. So it didn't really work now did it?


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## amyjeans (Jul 27, 2004)

Okay. Please dont flame me. I 've been hammered already once because of this but I am coming around, I swear!
We did the "F" method with dd1. (Trying to keep it clean with the vulgarity here!)
We didn't consider it CIO, becasue she never cried. Ever. She basically chose to leave our bed at 11 months, but what I learned from the book is that our dd needs sleep. If she doesn't sleep enough during the day, the world caves in all around us. Especially at 2 yrs old.
She is very willing to take a nap, as long as we catch her at the right time, usually between 12-1pm daily.
How did it go wrong with us?
Maybe you can tell me, because I have mixed feelings about it.
She seems to want to get back into bed with us, now that we co-sleep w/dd2 (she's inm the co-sleeper actually, but migrates next to me by the end of the night)
The problem is she is not accustomed to the co-sleeping thing. She thinks its a party in our bed, which most times it is, accept for nighttime.
We all wind up frustrated and someone ends up crying, even me.
Hindsight is 20-20.
IF only we knew what other ways we could have encouraged her to stay with us.
One friend of mine co-sleeps with her son and it was hell until she *listened* to his needs.
He would sleep between mom and dad, and kick dad all night- he thought it was cute.
So mom just moved inbetween them- problem solved.
Pretty simple actually, but where was my brain when things like that were happening to me?
(I wasn't here obviously!)
I thinksome of these similar methods have some possible miniscule teeny-tiny molecules of goodness in them- not the crying of course, but some logic that everyone needs sleep.
I guess I could have figured it out without the "F" book.
But, I was lead by others who influenced me into believing that this was the Tried and True method of baby sleep development.
Sorry to make this sound like a confession or admission to guilt, but it just tunred out that way.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

I have a friend who contacted Dr. Ferber himself and asked for advice. He encouraged her to CIO with his method. That was months ago and the toddler is still not sleeping through the night or taking naps. About a week ago I spent an hour on the phone with her while her ds was screaming in his crib. She would go into him when the timer said to and come back out and he was still screaming. He screamed for an hour and then she called back later and said he fell asleep in her arms finally. It's safe to say it's not working for her but she's sticking with it anyway.









Darshani


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quick thought-

The reason CIO people like it is that it makes them feel in control. It tells them they have control and encourages them to take it.

For parents of first babies who are dealing with sleep deprivation and the shock of life change, the "take back your life' method goes down easy.

And to the mom who did some ferber stuff-

I'm not a beleiver in forcing your kids to co-sleep if they are not into it or holding while they cry for hours if they fall asleep quickly on their own (without tears.).

My dd got a bed on the floor of our room after like 12 months because she is a lousy co-sleeper. She kicks and pushes everyone out of the bed. She happily transitioned to her own room recently. She is cuddly, but I now realize she really likes her own space and gets overwhelmed by too much touching and too many people.

i'm still glad we co-slept, though because it was eiaser to nurse that way. I never would have made it through that first year if not for co-sleeping.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*

I'm not a beleiver in forcing your kids to co-sleep if they are not into it

I agree! My 4yo still prefers to cosleep although we have our out of our bed about 1/2 the time now. My 1yo prefers her crib. Go figure.


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## Ellie'sMom (Aug 10, 2002)

I've never before admitted this on MDC, but I think I have something important to share so here is our CIO story. Please be gentle with me. I made the best decision I could at the time and, yes. I have lots of regrets.

I don't want to go into the whole long story, but at 10 months old after trying everything else we could think of (co-sleeping, not co-sleeping, No Cry Sleep Solution...lots of reading on these boards, etc) we decided to use the Mindel book, which advocates CIO just at bedtime, but regular comforting during the night. I was so tired that I was nearly suicidal. It was not pretty. I will say that CIO worked in the short term. Got us over a hump. DD went from 9-12 nightwakings to 2-3. But it didn't last. I think that is the biggest thing that nobody talks about. I know lots of families that have CIO and most end up in the long run with the sleep patterns they would have gotten no matter what. When dd transitioned from crib to her own bed at 18 months I started staying with her until she fell asleep again. We did that until 2.5 when she decided it was ok for me to go and do the dishes while she went to sleep. At age 2 she just started sleeping better, and I think that's just how long she needed. I don't think sleep training can erase an individual's natural sleep patterns. Now that I have that perspective I won't CIO again.

I agree about sleep trained kids being bad at new situations. This summer we went camping with some friends who are big fans of CIO and have done it with both of their girls (in spite of EBF, slingwearing and lots of other AP practices). I went into the tent with dd, laid down next to her, rubbed her back and she was asleep within 10 minutes. Most nights she slept all night. It took them forever and lots of crying to get their dd to sleep and she woke up repeatedly and screamed at intervals throughout the night. Not sure why they are still such fans.

OK. I hope I haven't lost lots of MDC friends, but I thought it would be useful to hear from someone who has btdt.


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## FancyPants (Dec 25, 2004)

ds1 was a cosleeper by accident more than by design. Our ped who was voted one of the "best in Phoenix" (by other doctors), told us at 4 mos that we _had_ to have him sleeping in a crib through the night. He implied that he should be sleeping through the night about now. {It was much later that I found out that "sleeping through the night" for a baby would be 4.5 - 5 hrs}. He told us proudly how his baby had cried for an hour and a half but after 3 days got the message. This is all he told us.
DH and I, holding each other, tried this for 5 horrific nights making it to about 20 minutes each time. I _really_ will always regret that we bothered at all but we (DH& I) sure learned something. DH told me "this dr is a quack or a monster to do this to his kid". I read everything I could find and eventually tried lessening the nursing time at his midnight feeding which was only a few minutes any way.
3 days later (versus 5 horrific ones) he's sleeping 5 hours straight and I didn't feel like this terrible failure and everything is fine.








So I would say that this is a CIO failure.
Having a second child who is a very light sleeper and a crib baby I would say that there are definitely problems with crib babies.
ds2 does not sleep easily anywhere. He is committed to his crib and his routine. He is the sort of baby who will not eat his food until you give him a fork (really, I kid you not)and half the time puts the pots and pans he plays with back in the cupboard when he is done (yes, he is 14mos!







) so I think this has a lot to do with his personality. Taking him places is not easy because you can't just cuddle him to sleep, you must make sure that the hotel/place has a crib and then he has to adjust to it.
On the other hand, _I_ personally get a lot more sleep _at this time_ in his life (call me back in a few years and I'll let you know). ds1 was a kicker and a champion arm twister.







:
ds1 who was such a horrible sleeper now sleeps anywhere (easy to take on trips), sleeps soundly, likes going to bed (in his own bed) even though he still likes to come in and cuddle in the mornings occasionally (maybe once a week) - but he doesn't kick anymore. ds1 is 4.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Since this has turned into a confessional-

I once put my dd in her crib to cry, for like 5 minutes. She was learning to walk and not sleeping AT ALL. I did it to tire her out, and it worked. After screaming bloody murder for a few minutes she actually fell asleep better when we brought her back. It was a sucky 5 minutes though.

After that I figured that drugging her was a less cruel last resort.

the thing is, in those tough times you question yourself, and in my case your husband questions you- like "If we'da just done what those people said and let her cry we wouldn't be going through this."

That's the lie of CIO- that a few days it sucks, then there's the payoff and we all live hapily every after. That image is so strong it's hard to stop people beleiving even when it's not working.


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## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)




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## sleeping queen (Nov 10, 2003)

I'll creep in here slowly. We never cio with first dd, but she just always nursed to sleep and she didn't sleep all night till 9 months. I thought that was great. Well here come the twins and I ended up not being able to nurse because of my health and the medication I was on was making them vomit.














. To make a long story short, I wasn't well and had others helping so we just gave bottles and rocked my sweeties to sleep. Simple enough. At about 4 months or so it was taking me 1-2hrs a night to rock them to sleep and that was with two of us. I called my ped because I was absolutely clueless because my first dd was easy. She said they needed to learn to go to sleep. So we cio. I absolutely hated it, I had tried the baby whisperer. What I did learn though that I was letting my two stay up to late and they were getting to tired. I started making a bedtime routine for them before we cio. Honestly, once my two learned to go to sleep on their own I've never had any trouble with them sleeping even when traveling. They didn't sleep through the night till they were over 9 months. We've never been co-sleepers, but with all of my kids if they are sick or wake up upset I've always let them get in bed with me if they want. I think it is easier to encourage good sleep habits early on than having to get to the point of cio. I will say though, my kids go for naps and bedtime good.


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## Mamame (Sep 21, 2004)

Well, I've seen that CIO parents are less in tune with their kids in general and that the kids can be kind of 'shut down' with regards to snuggling and expecting parents to be there. Now, I did CIO with my oldest and she learned to sleep through the night but I didn't do that with #2 who was a horrible sleeper to start - would only sleep while nursing for the first 3 months. Now #2 is the one who fell asleep anywhere! At 4, she fell asleep at a rock concert (VERY loud) and fell asleep sitting up at a restaurant. LOL!! She's my best sleeper yet. #s 3 and 4 were not allowed to CIO and they both sleep great - my youngest even tells me now "I seepy mama! I wanna go to bed!". It's wonderful!

I know that CIO does work but it achieves one thing - getting a child to shut down and sleep. Anything can interrupt that, though, and what about the other needs of your child? I don't know - I just think it's damaging and you CAN get your child to sleep without CIO - it just takes a bit more time.

Ann


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## jdlobe (Jan 13, 2005)

To me, the question "Does it work?" is tough to answer. It may get your child to go to sleep by his/herself and sleep through the night (in specific circumstances) but is that the goal? There is also a cost to everything, and I think sometimes people are so focussed on getting their kids to sleep that they don't look at the cost of doing it.

To me, I don't sleep through the night - neither does my daughter (my husband can sleep through a temper tantrum); however, due to co-sleeping we both get enough rest right now (it can change in a heartbeat), I can travel easily with her, and I get to cuddle her all the time - and that is success for me!


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## erlyco (May 31, 2004)

(long)
No flames please...

When DS was about 4 months old and I was going back to PT work, it was nearly impossible for DH to get him down for a nap. He would only nap if nursed, so we decided to try a modified "F" method just for naps -- not for nighttime.

I would let him cry in the crib, but I would go in every 5 minutes and pat him, talk to him, etc. Then I'd walk out. It was literally like torture for both DS and for me! The first couple of times, I sat right outside the door and cried along with him. First time lasted 20 minutes and felt like 20 days. The next couple times were still torturous, but much shorter (like 7-8 minutes), so I thought it was working. After that, the times would vary -- sometimes 5 minutes, sometimes 20 minutes. All along, I sat in the next room until he fell asleep. I refused to go to another part of the house until I knew he was no longer crying. It was terrible and completely opposite of all instincts.

After a couple of weeks doing it on and off, I couldn't stand it anymore. We were still having short times and long times with no consistent "improvements" and I was still sitting right outside the door through the whole thing. I finally said enough is enough. If I'm going to sit right here, why don't I just nurse him to sleep and put both of us at peace. Some kids are "good sleepers" and some are not. Mine is not. Oh well. Not his fault. Why punish him for it?

He has never had to cry alone again. And he never will.
DH has managed to get him down for naps with a bottle or dancing with him. It wasn't easy (still isn't easy), but it's not painful or mean.

Here's what I decided...

CIO is "sold" as teaching the child to sleep on his own. However, that's inaccurate. It is not teaching the child to sleep. It is teaching the child that you will not come when he/she cries for you. If they *do* learn to fall asleep on their own, it's merely a byproduct -- learned incidentally -- while the main lesson is still that "we are not coming when you need us, no matter how sad/scared/needy you are."

It's almost sadder when it *does* work than when it doesn't work. The kids for whom it worked are the ones who have resigned themselves to the fact that no one will come to them when they need it most. They've given up hope and that's why they don't cry anymore. Sad.

...and this is coming from someone who just spent the last two hours (maybe longer) getting an exhausted, stubborn (but very sweet) 21-month-old toddler to FINALLY fall asleep at almost 10:30 pm....yawn...


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## lucsmama (May 6, 2004)

i did cio with my ds. i did it for bedtime and it made him wake up more often not less. instead of waking up every hour or so, he was up every half hour. i was at my wit's end at the time and felt i had to do it. i don't really regret it because it taught me that i need to listen to my son and fulfill his needs AND i also need to use my husband more at bedtime if i am getting strung out. this was a valuable lesson for me. it helped me be a better mom, because i learned that my son is who he is and i can't force him to change, nor should i.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Someone I know who swears by CIO, but yet still complains about sleep issues CONSTANTLY with her two kids, was the first person I know to CIO. One time when her son was only about 10-11 months old, she had him on the video monitor in his crib crying his eyes out. I was standing right next to her and thinking, WHEN the hell is she going to pick him up? She let him cry forever and then finally brougt him out to the kitchen floor and he was so upset he was almost hyperventilating. Still, she didn't give him much attention and just let him sit on the floor by her feet.

This same mom retold a story with pride about how her then 2.5 yo got sick in the middle of the night, threw up on himself, but didn't wake her or her DH to help him. And cleaned himself up with a tissue and got back into bed. SHE SAID THIS WITH PRIDE.

I think I have other examples, but that's it for now. Ugh.


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## mama2silas (Oct 22, 2003)

A friend of mine's ds vomited the two times she tried CIO. He was about 9-10 months if I remember correctly. Other friends really encouraged her to do the Ferber method, insisting that it wasn't CIO. When I brought up the fact that allowing a child to fall asleep by crying is, well, crying-it-out, the moms who tried Ferber got all defensive. As I never read Ferber, I had no back up that Ezzo, Ferber, and all were just variations on the same theme, so I let it go.

That say, we tried it twice. The first time we lasted for 40 minutes -- going in his room every 5-10 minutes. DS was about 10 months at the time. We realized that it would have been so much easier to let him fall asleep with us (as he had for most of his life). We all would get more sleep.

The second time (about a month later), DH was out of town, and I had to pack for a trip w/DS the next morning. Trip times are super stressful for me -- I bring it all on myself. Anyway, after nursing for 30 minutes, DS still would not sleep, so I let him CIO. I was going to get him once I finished packing, but he did fall asleep within 15 minutes. He ended up going to sleep pretty easy after that for a while and had me almost convinced that CIO might work for an older baby, but....


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## bec (Dec 13, 2002)

If you just go onto a mainstream parenting board, you will see tons of people bragging about how it took their baby or toddler 2 hours to scream themselves to sleep, how they had to change the sheets twice because they threw up they were crying so hard, and how they've been going through this for weeks. I think that is pretty strong testimonial that it doesn't work.

I've never used CIO on my kids. We coslept with our first until really just a week or so ago. She starts out the night in her own bed, then would migrate to our room at some point during the night. We now have a little mattress set up next to our bed, and she has been sleeping there pretty happily. She will be four in a few weeks. The baby still sleeps between us.

It has not been easy, and it has not been fun. I have been exhausted for over four years (didn't sleep well in the last trimester with her). I have been perpetually sleep deprived with my high need baby for so long, I have forgotten what a good night's sleep is. I have not woken up feeling rested since she was born. There have been times that I have been so desperate for sleep that I have made DH stay home from work so I could sleep. It has not been the path of least resistance by any stretch.

I have not done CIO because I believe it to be cruel and wrong. I don't do it because I believe it wouldn't work with my children. They would be the ones crying for hours and hours every night for months on end. In the end it would be far more damaging than my sleep deprivation is to my parenting skills.

Bec


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

My niece was left to CIO from the _very_ beginning. Everyone raves about how great of a sleeper she is, and she does sleep an awful lot, and her parents are very consistent with regular naps and early bedtime. But every time we've been over there, I have noticed that she still (at 2 years old) cries softly to herself for at least half an hour when placed in her crib. I think it works for the parents: they _always_ put her to bed at the same time, and she eventually goes to sleep, and the quiet, plaintive crying doesn't seem to bother them. It was so sad, though, when my niece was painfully cutting her molars and they still wouldn't go to her at night because they were afraid they might mess up the sleep expectations.

Anyway, I think it's the PARENTS who are successfully trained to consistently ignore their kids' nighttime needs.


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## JulieK (Aug 25, 2004)

I have nursed ds to sleep for the last month or so (he's almost 6 months) and now am in a dilemma over whether to let him CIO. He used to go to sleep at night without nursing off to sleep, but naps were a disaster. So I started nursing him for naps, and then it became bedtime, too. I do want him to be able to get to sleep on his own. I just don't know how to do that the best way.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum*
It's taken a few years to get to this stage, but heck, I'd rather have my kids to put to bed any day than theirs.

Purely anecdotal, but it makes me feel vindicated.



















I haven't read all the posts, but just wanted to add the following. I have a neighbor with twin girls (now 6). When my first born was a baby (5 months?), she tried to tell me about CIO and how she swears by it.







I cut the conversation short and that was the end of that.

But she admitted that she couldn't go on vacations with her girls anymore (when they were toddlers I think) because they would scream at night and disturb the other hotel guests.









As co-sleepers - we NEVER had that problem. I felt sorry for her! Man, that would suck, not being able to travel, sleep anywhere.

*My Confession*
I followed my instincts in the beginning, but since DS was High Needs, a cousin highly recommended the Ferber book. Not knowing anything about it, we bought it, skimmed it and tried it one night.







DS was about a week old. He was screaming his skull off and I was crying downstairs. I finally went upstairs after a horrible long, 5 minutes.

Never again.









So no I don't judge anybody who has BTDT (out of desperation, ignorance, whatever....) As long as you see the light now (then) that it wasn't the way to go, that's what counts.

But my poor baby got enough of CIO at the hospital.







He needed to be held and was left alone in the bassinet, wailing for me... it didn't dawn on me how much he suffered till after I got home. I was sooooo angry about this.... never again do I want a hospital birth (and separation after birth) unless I absolutely need to be there.

I think the trauma of the first 2 days separated from me (I was fine) contributed to his High Need tendencies.









*Read Alice *******
Have any of you read her books? She has a horrifying story in there of a CIO example... a man in therapy kept having dreams of being stuck at the North Pole, freezing and helpless. He mentioned the reoccuring dream to his mother, who was furious and contacted the therapist. She felt she was found out (I am probably messing up the story.) It turns out.... when he was a baby, they did CIO. They left him in his crib and shut the door. He screamed for a long, long time. The window was accidently left open, so he was freezing. He threw up on himself and part of the threw up froze (I think.) Something crazy like that.

Lucsmama - I think your story is common. I think that for many kids, the CIO makes them anxious and afraid to be asleep, hence the frequent waking (just a theory though.)


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## amyjeans (Jul 27, 2004)

sorry for the off topic thing here- but in support of co-sleeping, it fosters an independence I think in children. Maybe that was why dd1 moved out on us at 11 mo. She was secure in her mommy/daddy bond that she had no problem adjusting to her own space. That security was understood because of the co-sleeping.
In the respect of it back-firing... I am experiencing it right now actually. With dd2, should I anticipate her moving out as well? Should I crack open that book again? Is it all about my needs?
And since dd2 was born, dd1 is pretty needy once again with me.Now I am the only one who can put her to bed and I have been asked on several occasions to return to her bed to get some sleep together- which I am so happy to do!
Here is a theory of CIO backfiring, perhaps with the intrusion of dd2 (in dd1's eyes) she is seen as the invador, and hog of mommy and daddy- hence dd2's desire to try and return to our bed. Perhaps if dd1 stayed with us, she would be more accepting of her sister's sleeping arrangement?
When something just doesn't sit all together right, you question it. It can be tough to overcome those obstacles, but well worth it if done with determination.
Well, water under the bridge at this point right? Besides, dd1 is little miss independent around here anyway.


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## hallesmom (Oct 27, 2003)

My mom told me her horror story of how my dad was on her about letting my older sis CIO







-so my mom did it and my sister got so pissed that she flipped herself out of her crib! Seriously. That was it for my mom-she didn't want to do it in the first place-but, well, you know....
Well, now my older sister has the worst temper! I associate it w/ that expierence-or part of it anyway!








They didn't do any CIO w/ me and I am pretty calm....


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## Cutie Patootie (Feb 29, 2004)

See this thread I started a year ago CIO with horrible regrets, lots of mamas share there stories. I am happy to say that after almost a year of recovery and constant reassurance ds can fall asleep at my breast again. He sleeps in his crib now...his choice...and sleeps through the night all on his own. His crib has always been side-carred to our bed, but he slept with us until he started literally crawling towards his crib when we where putting him to sleep around 12 months to 14 months old. He can fall asleep on his own, but I like to rock him and nurse him until he falls asleep.








He never cries if he wakes up in the middle of the night...he quietly calls us and waits for us to come. He knows we will always come as quick as our legs will carry us. I still think about the effects that CIO had on him and I sometimes wonder what would be different today. I truly believe it takes something out of a child that can never be replaced.


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## yllek (Jan 22, 2004)

First of all,







to you mamas who tried CIO and shared your stories. They were painful for me to read, so I can only imagine how difficult it was to share them here.

I truly believe that most moms resort to CIO because they are desperate. I know my friends IRL are when they decide to try it. I think mommyofschmoo said it best:

Quote:

That's the lie of CIO- that a few days it sucks, then there's the payoff and we all live hapily every after. That image is so strong it's hard to stop people beleiving even when it's not working.
At least now I feel like I can go back to my moms' groups with a little ammunition. There's one mom in particular who is really pushing for the new moms to let their high-needs babies CIO.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

I tried the Baby Whisperer plan (pick her up as soon as she cries and then put her back down repeast as necessary - possibly into the hundreds of times). I don't consider it CIO because you're not supposed to leave her crying. It didn't work and it was very frustrating to me. It would work for awhile and then I'd have to repeat the whole thing over again. On the other hand I now realize that I was trying to do it while she had ear infections so I'm sure that didn't help.

But I can't say I'm exactly thrilled with my 2 yo and her sleep habits either. She's in our bed about half the time, but none of us sleep well when she is.


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

well, I read babywise while preggered with dd. I waaas into it. Because of hte friend I mentioned earlier who did it. But, I never let dd cio. She was just reeally good with a schedule from the begining-mostly







i didnt ever realize it involved cio until dd started waking up in th enight again, teething-at about 2 months. And wanting to eat, etc. I had always put her to sleep on me as well. And she was naturally a great sleeper,big baby and all. So, then I reread the book, looking for some answers. Well, I realized the next step was to cry it out, reduce feedings etc!NO WAY!I think all in all, I tried letting her cio ONCE. I felt awful even though it was less than 5 min. I never did it again, ditched the book, starting reading stuff on kellymom.com








So, with dd things were very different from that point. But- she was so well"trained" that she would sleep for either 45 min. or 1 hour and a half. almost to the min! So, just recently has she started sleeping for longer intervals at naps. Or, she would SOMETIMES ssleep for a littleover two hours. Lets see-Oh yeah, 2 hrs 15 min. or so. Crazy!
Now ds is a grea sleeper- but we all slep together, and have overcome many obstacles mainly about safety in that area. Dd is a very confident sleeper and all night cuddler. She knows she is welcomed and loved. Thinking about all those poor babies makes me sick to my stomach


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bearsmama*

This same mom retold a story with pride about how her then 2.5 yo got sick in the middle of the night, threw up on himself, but didn't wake her or her DH to help him. And cleaned himself up with a tissue and got back into bed. SHE SAID THIS WITH PRIDE.

I think I have other examples, but that's it for now. Ugh.

I'm totally anti CIO, but you might want to cut this mamma some slack about the vomit thing. We had a bad case of gastroenteritis a few months back and dd threw up MANY times. Several of the times she rolled over and tried to go back to sleep in it (YUCK!!!!!) Sad to say, one time I let her because I was in the process of stripping another bed with vomit on it. I figured she'd puke again soon enough and I'd clean her then.

Kids don't seem to have the problem with puke adults do. At least not when they are sleepy.


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## LadyWulf (Aug 11, 2004)

I am NOT advocating AIO at all. It is just my experience and i do not intend to repeat it.

I did CIO with my DD. She cried for about 3 nights and didn't cry again. The only time she would make a peep was if she was sick or in pain or something scared her (loud noise or nightmare). At those times i would go to her and soothe her. I never had a problem with her bedtimes. I would go put her in her crib and she would either lay down and go to sleep or she would play for a little while and then go to sleep. She is 2 1/2 now and her sleeping is great still. She can sleep anywhere in any bed without issue. Most of the time though i do not hold her to any rigirous bedtime. When i see that she is sleepy i just tell her to go to bed and she happily goes and is asleep within minutes. (now) if she goes to bed and cries i just tell her to come back out to Mama and i let her stay up later. She has a futon bed that is VERY low to the floor...more like a mattress on the floor than a bed. So i don't have to worry about her falling out at night. My DD is a very independant child though and always has been. I did co-sleep with her when she was very young...until she was about 4 months old. Then she was in a crib in my room for a few months and then she was moved to her own room (this is when i CIO with her).

DS is a different story. I still haven't figured him out. He co-slept and i had planned for him to co-sleep for a long time. When he was about 4 months old we lost our house and me, DH and both kids were forced to live on the truck for a few months. This necessitated that DS sleep in a travel bassinet as the only bed was a twin size that me and DH slept on. He was fine withthis and always went to sleep without issue. (this is also with a truck idleing...noise and vibration). When we came off the road DS refused to sleep with me anymore. He would scream his fool head off if i tried to snuggle him or lay down with him to get him to sleep....no matter how tired he was. So it was back to the bassinet. I have tried on many occasions to get him to sleep with me again but he will NOT do it. He also will not sleep with anyone in the room with him. The only way he will go to sleep is to be in his room with the door closed. Sometimes he will cry a little...if he cries more than 2-3 minutes i go get him out of bed and play with him for a while. I have tried many things i have seen here on MDC to try and get him back to my bed. He will have none of it.

With the baby we are expecting in May i plan to co-sleep. DH (although totally against it with DD and mildly against it with DS) is totally on board with it this time. In other words he hasn't said they have to be in their own bed by the time they are X old. I am hopeing this one will be my baby who will attach and co-sleep.

I didn't know any better with DD so i did what i thought was right. I didn't know any better with DS until he was several months old. This time i do know better and i plan to do better.

ETA: Eventhough for the most part my story would be considered a sucessful CIO story I don't feel that it is. I have two children who will not snuggle to sleep and are so independant when it is bedtime that they have no NEED for me at all. (they will snuggle any other time...and DEMAND to do so all the time)


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

hey Ladywulf-

Don;t feel bad. I'm sure CIO must work for SOME kids- otherwise it wouldn't be so popular and the myth never would have been born.

In general I thinks it's effectiveness is vastly overrated. But that doesn't mean it never works for anybody.


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## musicmaj (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yllek*
At least now I feel like I can go back to my moms' groups with a little ammunition. There's one mom in particular who is really pushing for the new moms to let their high-needs babies CIO.









I can attest that cio does NOT work with high-needs babies. I am sorry to say that I too got sucked into trying the ferber method and cio with my first baby. She was so high needs and was not a sleeper in any way. After months of being up with her 7 times a night I was completely desperate. Both dh and I come from mainstream families and at the time we didn't know any other ap families. I hadn't found mothering yet, or even heard of dr. Sears yet. It seemed that everyone was telling us to "just let her cry, it is for her own good" I knew in my heart that it wasn't, but I was desperate. Well, after you hear that a million times you actually consider trying it. (please don't flame me, I feel really bad about this) The first night she cried for a couple of hours with me going to her every 5 minutes. She ended up vomiting. I couldn't let her cry anymore by herself that night. The next night we got to about 20 minutes before I just couldn't take it anymore. That is how it went for about a week. I knew in my heart it wasn't right to let her cry.
After that, we started cosleeping. This is when things started to get better. She would still cry a lot at night, but I would hold her, rock her, nurse her and try to comfort her. At least if she was going to cry, she could do it with me right next to her trying my best to help her and find out why what she needed. She still woke up 5-7 times a night, but since she was right next to me I could get her back to sleep so much easier and I didn't have to keep getting out of bed so I was getting more sleep. Her needs were being met as best as dh and I could with this sleeping situation. Cosleeping is what people should have told us to do, not cio.

Now dd is 4. She is happy, secure, and still sleeps in our room on a mattress on the floor and sometimes between us in our bed. She loves to cuddle. She is not ready to move out of our room yet and that is just fine with us. She has been sleeping through the night since about 3 1/4 years old. No amount of crying it out would have made her sleep through the night sooner than that. Now that she is older, she seems to be hyper sensitive to noise and touch (seems on clothes) and I suspect that a lot of her crying as an infant was from these things - not because she was controlling us. (Like some people suggest.)
I just heard a comment from someone at my church the other day and it made me so happy, "You and dd are very close. You are intune to each other" I believe that cosleeping has benefitted us in that way.

My son has not cried it out. He is three and has developmental delays. We are suspecting autism. I can only imagine what crying it out would have done to him. Right now he is a very loving boy or likes big hugs. He knows he can trust us and I think that helps him when it comes time to learn new things. I believe that his social skills would have been much worse off.


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

I can think of 3 right off the bat!

My sister's two girls (2 and 1) are both terrible sleepers. I don't know how old they were when she begain CIO, but right now the 2 year old wakes up several times a night and climbs into bed with my sister. This wouldn't be a problem, but they don't co-sleep and sis doesn't want to, but she canNOT get her dd to stay in bed. The 1 year old cries herself to sleep almost every single night. I wouldn't consider that a success at all! Anyone can do that. If that's a success, then CIO works the first time you try it. This poor baby cries anywhere from 20 minutes to 90 minutes at least 4 times a week. And it isn't soft weeping either - it's loud wailing and screaming.

My dh's sister also has two girls (5 and 3) and they were both "Ferberized" at a very young age - like 2 or 3 months. I wasn't at their house often enough to know exctly how many times a week they cried themselves to sleep when they were babies, but I recall being there when the youngest was a baby and she woke up at about midnight, while we were all still up. She cried and we told her the baby was crying and sil said, "That's okay. She'll go back to sleep," and she just left her in there without even checking on her! And I remember being at MIL's house (we all live in different cities) and her putting the youngest to bed when she was a baby and she cried for a long time. Those aren't successes! Furthermore, both of these girls have sleep issues now. The 5 year old won't stay in bed. She gets up in the night and goes to her parents bed and talks to them almost every night. They once heard their alarm go off and found the 3 year old out in the backyard playing at about 2am. It's also a big hassle to get them to sleep at night. They never want to go to bed. They both refuse to sleep without the tv in their bedroom on!

My next door neighbor has a 5 month old. She does Ezzo. Last time I was over there for the evening, she put the baby to bed and the baby screamed until I left about 30 to 45 minutes later! YIKES! I felt terrible for her!

It takes me about 15 to 30 minutes to put Carmen to sleep at night. I nurse her to sleep while I read her a story and sing a song. She's usually out by the end of the song. Then I can count on at least 2 hours to do what I want. Sometimes she won't wake to nurse for 5 hours or more. We co-sleep, so she doesn't actually even wake for that. She just stirs in her sleep and gets fed once or twice a night. I have a theory that this is actually helping her learn to stay asleep at night, because she never has to wake up to know that I'm right there, she's safe and she has everything she needs. Kind of a subconscious thing....we'll see...


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

We are a CIO failure story (know better, do better). Started this method when dd was 10 mo, because I simply didn't know what else to do. She was still nursing, and we still coslept, but she simply would not go to sleep, and she was incredibly tired and miserable. It was bad. CIO was bad. She has since been diagnosed with SID, which (in retrospect) helps to explain the sleep problems we were having, but, as I said, I didn't know what else to do at the time (and had no ap support).

CIO failed miserabl (even we stuck with it for way too long). Finally, I started laying with dd again. This has not solved our sleep issues, but at least has relieved her anxiety about bedtime (she was starting to freak out at the beginning of our bedtime ritual







). She is now 4, and I will continue to lay with her until she asks me to stop


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## mittendrin (Nov 5, 2003)

you can call my son a cio failure














:








we tried it when he was 6 months, for 4 days. didn't work. i had a friend back then who told me i should do it if ever wanna sleep again. i even bought the book by dr ferber...yeah, so i really had it planned out. i'm digusted by myself when i think about it.
anyhoo, my friend, who's a big cio fan was stunned when i told her, after 4 days he was still as stubborn as on day 1 and we'd quit, because i find it cruel. it always "worked" for her kids. well, of course, they had to do it after her ds was sick and they had let him sleep with them and, yes, 2x a year when they went on vacation, they'd do it there and then again, back home. oh, don't forget the teething. can't let him cry when he's teething, o no, but make sure he knows the rules again when the darn tooth has finally cut!








a few weeks ago i talked to her and she told me her ds is sleeping in their bed, but that's ok. so, NOW they let him in, after almost 3 ys of cio on and off. i just had to rub it in, that our ds has decided on his own about 7 months ago to sleep through in his bed in his room.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I did not do CIO. But I am close to several families who have. What I see is what has been reported in this thread. They stand by their decision, and claim it works. But what I see is the following:

1) CIO has to be repeated whenever their has been an illness, a trip, or any sort of change in routine.

2) The babies never seemed to get to the point where they would fall asleep without tears. Instead, the parents seemed to adjust to the crying, and not notice it so much.

3) The kids became noticeably resistant to physical comforting. Eventually became resistant to snuggling and rocking, and almost seemed dependent on their routine of crying to sleep. They didn't know how else to fall asleep.

4) It was impossible to tell when these kids were up sick at night. It would take days to discover an ear infection.

5) After the child moves out of their crib, there is a whole new range of power struggles. The ante is upped, and these parents progressed to locking the kid's doors at night and spanking them to keep them in bed.

6) Bedtime is never a welcome time to these kids.


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## tracymom (Mar 11, 2002)

Through one reason and another, advice from friends, etc. we tried to "train" our oldest DS to go to sleep in his crib rather than falling asleep with dad or lying down with us. Breastfeeding had already failed so that wasn't an issue. It was probably the biggest mistake we ever made. It took months, literally months, to undo the damage to his trusting us that just two nights trying CIO did. Awful.

And I agree with a PP that it's a control issue, totally. I have a friend whose parenting style is completely different and it's all about the fact that she's just a more controlling person than I am, all around. She's got to feel like she's in control of the situation, hence her parenting practices tend toward the stricter and included I am sure some CIO, though we never discussed it in detail.


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## ashcox (Jul 7, 2004)

I know this isn't what you wanted but I felt a little guilty so I thought I'd chime in. I had been rocking my baby to sleep since she was born and by about 11 months she was screaming for 30 minutes to an hour every night (or more some nights) in my arms before she went to sleep. So finally I decided to let her CIO at about 15 months. I put her in bed, told her I loved her and turned out the lights. That night she cried for about 3 minutes and I cried for about 30. I felt awful. But since then she hasn't cried at all. We can travel and she sleeps just fine. She sleeps fine in a crib or on a mat on the floor-just about anywhere I guess. I miss holding my precious sleeping baby, but that was more what I needed then what she did. I'm just saying this to say that somtimes being in tune with your child and trying CIO isn't necessarily the worst thing. I was dead set against CIO but she wouldn't sleep with us, or rock to sleep, so what choice did I have? I guess different things just work best for every baby. I know this is rambling but I just felt I needed to chime in.


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## BetsyPage (Mar 5, 2004)

Ashcox, I'm not sure I consider what you did CIO. It sounds like she was over-stimulated by your presence & was so tired and just needed space to get to sleep. The crying might have been releasing frustration. It sounds like it was really hard for you, but that you were respecting her need for less stimulation & space to fall asleep. I know it's hard to give up those night-time cuddles though.


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## tracymom (Mar 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BetsyPage*
Ashcox, I'm not sure I consider what you did CIO. It sounds like she was over-stimulated by your presence & was so tired and just needed space to get to sleep. The crying might have been releasing frustration. It sounds like it was really hard for you, but that you were respecting her need for less stimulation & space to fall asleep. I know it's hard to give up those night-time cuddles though.









I agree, Ashcox, it sounds like you were very in tune with your baby and that's the opposite of what "CIO" is all about, IMO. Not about what you want, but what baby wants.


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## Nate (Sep 3, 2003)

Okay, I'll venture in...







:
We did CIO w/ dd when she was about 5 months







:, b/c she would be so stimulated by our presence (mine) that she wouldn't shut down. I felt like NCSS had all sorts of ideas for getting your child to recognize sleep-associations...but what if your child NEVER GETS SLEEPY?!?!

Anyway, it worked just like the experts said. 3 days of diminishing crying, until by the end I was able to sit & nurse her, then put her in bed. She'd fuss for a few minutes then go to sleep, and for a few months slept about 8 hours straight. Bliss. She'd wake up, I'd go pick her up & bring her back to bed to nurse back to sleep.

But...just like the experts DON'T say, it doesn't stick! She started sleeping shorter & shorter periods b/f that first waking. Then starting around 14 months I couldn't put her in the crib awake, b/c she'd try to crawl up me to get out. And she was taking an hour to nurse to sleep. In the meantime, dh (who's a SAHD) stopped having any lucks w/ naps. So at around 16 months, dh was pressuring me to wean b/c he thought it'd make life easier for him (







, but I won that round!) and finally I tried cio again, for about 3 nights. This time it REALLY didn't work--she'd finally fall asleep, then wake again w/in an hour or 2. And she was MUCH more clingy during the day.

Anyway, we now don't even sit in the rocker in her room b/f bed--we sit in the big bed, read a book (if she lets me), sing a couple of lullabies, and nurse to sleep.

What the advocates of CIO neglect to mention (other than the physical & psychological effects on both parent & child) is that doing CIO generally means that you never develop any GOOD bedtime habits. And so every time there's a change--travel or wahtever--you end up having to start over.

I still don't know what to do about an infant like my dd was, who just never shuts down. But if we have another child & s/he's anything like Clara was, we won't cio. It's a temporary fix to a permanent solution.

Our bedtime troubles are far from over--I still can't leave her alone b/f she's fallen asleep, even if she's done nursing--so I'm not saying that people who don't (or no longer) use CIO avoid problems. But dd loves bed (of course, she's only 2), and often ASKS to go to bed. How many cio parents can say that?


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

Well, I think we're a co-sleeping AND cio failures!










We co-slept to begin with. I use the word "slept" loosely, as we (he and I) didn't really sleep at all for the first 12-15 months. Not but a few hours a week. In desperation cio was attempted. The problem was he would cry endlessly. I have no doubt he would have continued to cry until he lost consciousness... really.

So, co-sleeping and not cio is simply to save our sanity and his life!

at two yeawrs old he's just slept thru the night maybe 3 times. He usually nurses 2-5 times a night. But, at least he's not crying.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

* Several CIO`ers (for lack of a better word) I know have used it many, many times. Every time a child gets sick, they have been away for a few nights, special occasions where they haven`t been as strict with the routine they have to resort to CIO again to "fix" the baby/child again.

*A family I know started this when their child was 6 months old. 12 months later s/he still cried herself to sleep every night.. Now, almost 2 year after they started with CIO, s/he still fights bed time a lot.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

This is just in response to Tamara's post--I am always so grateful for my spirited boy when I read things about other kids fighting bedtime. My son will actually ASK to go to bed most nights. And sometimes it's like 5:30 and he just wants to go directly to bed, with no dinner (btw, I try to not get him into bed until 6:45 at the earliest). Just wanted to post my feelings about being happy we did things the way we did and never went the CIO route. This was not even an option for us, but this thread just makes me realize what we have. I digressed, I know...


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## jondee0 (Mar 13, 2004)

...as part of Ezzo's "Christian" version of Babywise. This was my brother and sister-in-law, and they were very, very enthusiastic about Ezzo's entire program (I find it revealing that they have since renounced the program, especially my sil, who feels that she developed a very adversarial relationship with her daughter because of the whole control-factor laced throughout Ezzo's writings). My brother and sil had their first baby on a pretty tight schedule from her birth, and although their daughter was what I would've called high-needs, they didn't talk about having any big problems until the little girl was around 2 years old, old enough to go into a big bed.

That's when the h*ll started at night. My niece would wake up in the middle of the night and scream, and scream, and scream! She wouldn't stay in her bed, but would get out over and over again and come to her parents' room, all away on the other side of the house. They finally bought a lock for the outside of the door, because she would not stay in bed. This went on for at least a couple of weeks that I know of, and maybe longer. I quit asking, because the only suggestion I had was one that they just couldn't, wouldn't do: give the little girl the attention she needed at night!

And that is the saddest part of CIO sleep training, I think: the need to protect these "sleep patterns" or "sleep associations" that they'd tried to develop in their daughter were so sacred to them that they were scared to death to do anything that might change them. They were really afraid that their daughter would get used to sleeping with them, or with having someone stay with her for a while at night, and that they would have to do that forever. They just didn't believe that "healthy" sleep patterns can develop on their own in kids, in the appropriate time, with just a little support and encouragement from the parents.

Joni and kids, incl. current bed-buddy Micah, 7-16-04


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## Mama Bear (Aug 4, 2004)

This is an email I got from a friend:

_Hey! We're doing really well, although it's been a rough month. At ds' 4 month checkup the doctor said we needed to start letting him cry it out. To make a long story short, he lost his voice and made himself sick. To make matters even worse, 3 weeks later he would still cry for an hour at night. We finally gave that up and we're doing a combination of the Baby Whisperer and Sleep Lady methods and it's working beautifully! He is still asleep and I put him down for a nap 2 hours ago! (Before this he would only sleep while I held him and nursed him!)_


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

When my first daughter was about 14 months, we decided to try the CIO method in the Weisbluth book. My husband was really upset about the whole way the sleeping was working out (trying to put her to bed, nursing her for two hours only to have her wake up the minute I tried to get out of bed), and we decided we would try this for two weeks and see how it worked out. I would nurse her to sleep and leave her in the bed which worked sometimes, but then I decided to move her into the crib which was right next to the bed. My hope was that I could nurse her to sleep, put her in the crib, get her used to sleeping in the crib and then she wouldn't wake up to nurse as much at night because there would be some separation with her in the crib. It would take a lot of crying before she would really cry herself out and it didn't seem to get much better. We thought it was, but then it got worse again. A few times when I went in to go to bed for the night, I found out she had vomited in the crib. One night, towards the end of the two weeks, I lifted her into the crib and she vomited as I was putting her in. I decided that was enough so we went back to the old way of doing things.

I really feel like I messed things up for years because of this.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

I will say that I think crying before going to sleep is different from crying it out. I nurse my current toddler and stay with her as long as she needs me, then I get up and go back if she wakes up. Sometimes she'll nurse, then get off the bed and go play, then come back and nurse, then get off the bed again. I always know when she'll finally go to sleep, and it's after she's had a little setback in her playtime and is crying. When she is happy and playful, she won't go to sleep. So that is the releasing frustration crying that BetsyPage talked about--thanks for helping me to clarify that in my mind.


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## Boingercat (Jan 20, 2004)

New Member

Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 2 It's not just CIO.....

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Hi. This has been such an interesting thread to read! We co-sleep with my now 3-y.o. ds, and have done so since birth. Honestly, we had not planned on it--in my professional training I had been taught that co-sleeping is the cause of a variety of problems, and I could not imagine doing it with my own son. Well, that changed in about...2 seconds! Mainly because I just couldn't see leaving my sweet, helpless little boy to fend for himself all night, but also because he had medical issues. I am now a die-hard co-sleeping advocate, and I have watched my friends struggle with CIO and getting their kids to sleep.

But I don't think it's just about CIO vs. co-sleeping. I think it's a total lifestyle and mindset about parenting. My friends who are adamantly against co-sleeping are also the ones who hang on their pediatricians' every word and believe that professionals know more than their own instincts tell them. They don't use carriers and many of them aren't breastfeeding because it's "not their kind of thing." Meanwhile, my co-sleeping friends breastfeed, use carriers, are attentive to their children's needs, and try to avoid placing their kids in daycare if they can (rather than eagerly looking forward to it like my CIO friends). I do not have a single CIO friend who has children that go to sleep easily, and their toddlers are not as socially engaging as my co-sleeping friends. They seem to cry a lot more easily in general, too, than my co-sleeping friends--anyone else noticed this? Also, I think that co-sleeping parents know more about their kids than CIO--after all, we spend more time with them! I can't imagine not knowing how my son slept...plus, we have our best conversations at bedtime.

Okay, not to go on and on, but I think there are a lot of factors, and not just co-sleeping vs. CIO causing what we notice. Funny, though, once I started telling people we co-sleep, it was amazing how many moms 'confessed' to it too :--)

Laur


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## CerridwenLorelei (Aug 28, 2002)

I was young , going through a divorce didn't know about ap/nfl and had ferber/and worse people around me ( later I asked one why did you do that to me and him and she said it was done to me and all I knew)

anyway poor teen ds got ferberized. years later when he was in grade school he got sick and was hurting and didn't tell me. When I asked him why he said " Even if I cried I knew you wouldn't come because you didn't when I was little" OMSTARS that will live with me forever and ever the damage I did to that poor little thing and at the time he was barely six~


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## rthyre (Feb 22, 2005)

I still feel pretty guilty about it, but I did try CIO with my ds when he was 5 months old and still co-sleeping. I have a pretty bossy sister who was very pushy about it (talked about how well it worked for her--she did it when her ds was 3 months!), and I wasn't feeling confident enough as a parent to stand up to her. After my son cried for almost an hour the night we tried CIO, my husband and I realized it was not the right method for us. My decision actually caused a rift between me and my sister that has never quite healed, sadly. Ds continued to co-sleep for another few months, and then he let us know that he wanted to sleep in his crib, and just gradually woke less and less during the night until he was sleeping all the way through. (I enjoyed telling my sister that he was sleeping through the night without CIO, which she said would never happen.)

Since then, I've also noticed that CIO wasn't the greatest thing for my sister either--she seems sad that her son is not cuddly, is not very attached to her, is very shy, and he has had sleeping problems despite her claim that CIO would prevent them. (My son is very attached, very outgoing, and she points this out quite a lot.) I've also realized that on a certain level she feels bad about doing CIO--she needed me to do it, too, to make her feel better, and she always says she only wants to be friends with other parents who do CIO. I'm not saying that CIO doesn't work for anyone, but from my experience, you have to take CIO-pushers' claims of success with a grain of salt.


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## habibekindheart (Feb 7, 2005)

Back before I was AP, I had a son who was a difficult child.

When he was about a year old, he still wouldn't sleep through the night and would NOT go to bed at a certain time. With urging from my family and doctor, I was told to use CIO, and to never give up because if you do it teaches them that they're more powerful than you.

So, being inexperienced parents and having so much pressure for something that 'works' and is 'needed', we finally gave in.

Night after night after NIGHT after NIGHT of him sobbing himself hysterical for over an hour before passing out. We continued it for months while I tried anything to not go in there and get him.

This basically continued every flipping night at least 3x a night for months. The upstairs neighbors complained that I had an unhappy kid and that I was probably abusing him, but the ped and my family just kept telling me to stick with it.

It didn't work.

Eventually he settled into his own schedule and started going to bed, but it was completely independent from the CIO we'd tried. After giving up and letting him go to bed when he was tired, we eventually noticed he was zonking around the same time each night.

I will never forgive myself for putting my son through that, it damaged my bond to him and I can't get that time back now. I consider it ridiculous that parents are expected to put babies and small toddlers on some sort of sleep schedule that they don't set themselves, that we're told that babies should sleep through the night by 6 months. I'm REALLY sick of hearing that them screaming their lungs out strengthens them. I'll never do it again.

*edit*

Also, I would like to add that we were under a lot of pressure with DD to get her to sleep because we were staying at the IL's house for a time...They insisted that CIO was the way to go. Our daugher fell asleep in our arms, then we transferred her to the crib (cosleeping is dangerous, you know...) and she'd fuss for less than 5 minutes before going down.

Well, soon after we got that downpat we moved and it was ALL upheaval again. Back into our bed she came (while we weren't adverse to cosleeping, I was VERY pregnant), nighttimes were becoming a struggle even though she'd go down for her naps. We finally just said 'Well, we don't believe in all that anyway' and let her do what she wanted.

Thank goodness it was a short stint in a very long cosleeping relationship. We just bought her a bed the week before last. She still cosleeps sometimes but she loves her bed. She'll get her things for her nap and crash in her bed, and at night too. She still crawls into bed with me often at night (and her little brother). We never did any type of CIO again with her and have never any problems.

In fact, the only sleep problems we have EVER had with our kids are the kind that are caused by other people saying 'You should...' or 'They should...', putting expectations and stress on us, trying to make us feel like crappy parents.

A friend once told me 'No child can get themselves back to sleep at night until they're about 2 years old.' It is only by heeding that advice that I don't get frustrated and think I'm doing something wrong when I have to hold my 15 month old son to get him to sleep, and wake up at 4am every morning because he's hungry, then get him back to sleep AGAIN.

If people kept their unrealistic expectations in check, and their advice to themselves, a lot of people with babies and toddlers wouldn't be so desperate for a quick fix to any perceived problems they're convinced they have.

Babyhood is supposed to be this long period of getting sleep while you can, with a baby in your arms and no time to do anything but focus on your real priorities. I'm enjoying the babytime I have with my son, being able to cuddle with him for hours each day. If the drawback to him not growing up so quickly is that I still have to wake up at 4am, so be it. These are the happiest kids I know. They're not the most polite, but manners can be taught. Teaching someone to be happy and well adjusted costs thousands of dollars and hours in therapy


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## bamamom (Dec 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leilalu*
well, I read babywise while preggered with dd. I waaas into it. Because of hte friend I mentioned earlier who did it. But, I never let dd cio. She was just reeally good with a schedule from the begining-mostly







i didnt ever realize it involved cio until dd started waking up in th enight again, teething-at about 2 months. And wanting to eat, etc. I had always put her to sleep on me as well. And she was naturally a great sleeper,big baby and all. So, then I reread the book, looking for some answers. Well, I realized the next step was to cry it out, reduce feedings etc!NO WAY!I think all in all, I tried letting her cio ONCE. I felt awful even though it was less than 5 min. I never did it again, ditched the book, starting reading stuff on kellymom.com








So, with dd things were very different from that point. But- she was so well"trained" that she would sleep for either 45 min. or 1 hour and a half. almost to the min! So, just recently has she started sleeping for longer intervals at naps. Or, she would SOMETIMES ssleep for a littleover two hours. Lets see-Oh yeah, 2 hrs 15 min. or so. Crazy!
Now ds is a grea sleeper- but we all slep together, and have overcome many obstacles mainly about safety in that area. Dd is a very confident sleeper and all night cuddler. She knows she is welcomed and loved. Thinking about all those poor babies makes me sick to my stomach










Yup, i had a friend who swore by babywise, so I read it and we gave it a halfhearted try. I didn't make her wait between feedings or anything, but by followind their"routine" I had a sweet baby who would only sleep 45 minutes at a time. She would be so tired by the end of the day, taking small 45 minute naps. It really didn't work like the book said, and she eventually learned to sleep well on her own.


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