# 4 year old with an attitude



## honeybee80 (May 24, 2005)

I need some ideas on how to deal with my 4 year old DD. She's a high spirited child and behaves well as long as you are giving her your undivided attention (which I just can't do all the time!) She doesn't listen when I tell her to stop doing something that's not allowed. I try to let her do what she wants, within reason, but she gets carried away and will, for instance, take ALL the clothes out of the closet and put them on her bed while I'm making dinner, or rip every single page out of a coloring book, or tell her brother to do one of those things. I try to calmly give her reasons why she shouldn't do something and she'll usually make some smart, sassy comment back. If I put her in timeout, she'll start saying "dammit" over and over again. I'm still trying to find out who says this around her, because I really watch what I say, especially if it's something I don't want the kids repeating. If anyone has some fresh ideas for me to use with her, I'd greatly appreciate it....I'm getting really frustrated.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Kids, Parents and Power Struggles by Kurchina

http://www.amazon.com/Kids-Parents-P...5703767&sr=8-1


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## honeybee80 (May 24, 2005)

Thanks for the recommendation....I'll have to see if the library has it.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Yep -- do read that book!







Its a good one.

Also though, I was going to suggest that instead of telling her what not to do (and engaging in endless irrational arguments about it) try giving her things TO do. As in chores. My older child has always needed constant engagement, and as you say -- its not possible 24/7. But it was easier, at that age, if I involved him in the things that I needed done. So if I was cooking dinner, I would invite him into the kitchen with me and give him every little task that I could think of. Scrubbing potatos, setting the table, washing dishes, I'd even make stuff up sometimes. Have him reorganize the fridge or something. He helped with EVERYTHING.

I could never just leave him to his own devices at 4. If I left him alone in a room, I needed to "set him up" with an activity where I would give him very specific instructions.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

I must admit I smiled when I read the subject line - sounds like four alright. The subtitle of the book "Your Four Year Old" is "Wild and Wonderful" and that about sums it up. My suggestion would be to keep her close and involve her in your world. Let some of the little out of bounds stuff slide. Find ways to give her control and let her be a leader - in other words harness her powers for good not evil!


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## spruce (Dec 11, 2004)

Four is a very exploratory, confusing, empowering, scary age for children (and those who love them). Everyone talks about "The terrible twos," but as the mother of six, I can say that three, four, and eight are very tough ages.

If you can't find the rec'd book in your library, I'd be happy to mail it to you.







Also, "How to talk so kids will listen, and listen so kids talk," is a lifesaver. I'd mail you my copy of that, but I've written all in it.









Good luck, PM me if you'd like me to mail you the book.

love, penelope


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## spruce (Dec 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mkcmommy2003* 
I need some ideas on how to deal with my 4 year old DD. She's a high spirited child and behaves well as long as you are giving her your undivided attention (which I just can't do all the time!) She doesn't listen when I tell her to stop doing something that's not allowed. I try to let her do what she wants, within reason, but she gets carried away and will, for instance, take ALL the clothes out of the closet and put them on her bed while I'm making dinner, or rip every single page out of a coloring book, or tell her brother to do one of those things. I try to calmly give her reasons why she shouldn't do something and she'll usually make some smart, sassy comment back. If I put her in timeout, she'll start saying "dammit" over and over again. I'm still trying to find out who says this around her, because I really watch what I say, especially if it's something I don't want the kids repeating. If anyone has some fresh ideas for me to use with her, I'd greatly appreciate it....I'm getting really frustrated.

Other ideas...

Actions need consequences. Negative, hurtful or mess-making actions need consequences that reinforce the lesson we want to teach.

For the clothes-pulling-out, I'd really make an effort to stand there and watch while she either puts her things away, or while she watches as you box it all up to give to charity. My girls (now almost 15 and 12) learned the "don't abuse your stuff" lesson in one fell swoop...they had to box up and carry and mail a HUGE container of Barbie dolls and accessories. I had them send it to their cousin, and they had to pay the shipping. This was when they were 6 and 4 years old. It was very punitive, but IMHO, sometimes that's the way to go. ( I know I disagree with many Mamas on this board about punitive repercussions...)

For saying naughty, not-allowed words, time in her room or writing sentences might be apropo. At times these are just limit tests for kids...telling her that "dammit" is not allowed in your house and she'll have to go away from other people until she can abide by the rules might make an impact.

My kids are also given pushups or jumping jacks to do for infractions of known rules.

Good luck.









love, penelope


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## honeybee80 (May 24, 2005)

I found the book at the library and will hopefully get to start reading it tonight. Thanks for all the suggestions....I know I need to get her to help me when I'm cooking, but I just feel like there's not a whole lot I can have her help with (which I KNOW is not true--I'm just anal like that







)


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

My soon-to-be-4 year old loves to scrub potatoes, peel vegetables, sprinkle spices/sugar, stir, pour liquids. She can stand next to the stove on a stool, with close supervision, to stir things in a pan (not at boiling temperatures or when grease can splatter, but when we're simmering or mixing with the heat off). She loves to put toppings on homemade pizza. She likes to wash lettuce and spin it in the salad spinner. She likes to sprinkle cheese and carrots on the salad. She can grate cheese with a box grater. She can use the can opener if I get it started for her. She can pour from cans into pans.

She will "wash" dishes next to me while I cook, set the table (with dishes, utensils, salad dressing, napkins-whatever we need and she can reach), she'll go get me things I need like cans of veggies or ingredients she can reach in the fridge. She'll wash the windows or front of the fridge with a spray bottle and towel.

Have you read Raising Your Spirited Child? That's another good one.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

My 2.5 year old washes dishes herself.
Without permission.








Just the other day, I went to the bathroom, yeah, the bathroom, because, well, I had to go.
I came out and she had pushed the dining chair up to the sink counter, had a washcloth she had pulled out of a drawer, and had 'washed' a few bowls under the running faucet, which she had turned on, and was placing them in the dish drainer. Sophia had climbed onto the chair with her and was 'helping'.
Speaking of Sophia, who is only 15 months old, she has already mastered the 'sliding the chair to the counter' trick to reach things on the counter.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

That's how all of mine started washing dishes, Purity! I think it's great. We have long had open access to the sink. It's a great activity.

My youngest mastered sliding the chair to the counter (and climbing onto the counter) when she was a year old (I do mean, like 12 months). Cool, but sometimes scary.


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## honeybee80 (May 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Purity♥Lake~* 
My 2.5 year old washes dishes herself.
Without permission.








Just the other day, I went to the bathroom, yeah, the bathroom, because, well, I had to go.
I came out and she had pushed the dining chair up to the sink counter, had a washcloth she had pulled out of a drawer, and had 'washed' a few bowls under the running faucet, which she had turned on, and was placing them in the dish drainer. Sophia had climbed onto the chair with her and was 'helping'.
Speaking of Sophia, who is only 15 months old, she has already mastered the 'sliding the chair to the counter' trick to reach things on the counter.









OMG, that's funny!

The only problem with helping in the kitchen is that my kitchen is TINY (and yes, I'm somewhat making excuses--lol!) But really, it's hard for me to even move if one of the kids is in the kitchen too. My stove is free standing (no cabinets next to either side), so it makes me nervous to have them in there at all when the stove is on. I'll have to figure something out though, because I know M would be a GREAT helper in the kitchen









I really appreciate all the suggestions--keep em coming!


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

yeah, mine is small, too.
Mostly because my kitchen is a kitchen, a dining room, and the place my bird cages are.

But it's total size is 13.5 foot square.
Two walls are my fridge, kitchen sink, stove/pantry/walkway to hallway.
The third wall is the window wall with the table, chairs and bird cages which also fill most of the open space.
So, there is very little space to move around my kitchen, especially with two babes underfoot, helping me.

ETA:
I've added photo links.


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## honeybee80 (May 24, 2005)

Okay, do you want to see really small? Here are a few pics of my kitchen:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...all2007073.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...all2007075.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...all2007074.jpg

Any advice on how to let her help in such a small space without making me completely crazy?


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

My almost 4yo is not high spirited and I'm having trouble with this. Since I have a 16yo I do know that it is normal for the age. My problem is that I don't handle it well. I have to make a very conscious effort not to just expect my orders to be followed but rather take the time to engage with my ds. It's when I'm busy or distracted that he gets more and more outrageous. Thanks for posting this so that I can be reminded about the 4yo's need to be involved and get good ideas on how to do that.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mkcmommy2003* 
Okay, do you want to see really small? Here are a few pics of my kitchen:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...all2007073.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...all2007075.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...all2007074.jpg

Any advice on how to let her help in such a small space without making me completely crazy?

The only advice I can think of is moving the stove or refrigerator.
Yep, it's small.
But be glad you don't have a carpeted floor in there like we do.
and we can't afford to change the floors.
I like the cranberry red walls.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

mkcmommy, that is one tiny kitchen! One suggestion I have is to set your dd up at the table to work, if that's possible. I do this with my dd a lot, because it's easier for her, and I just go back and forth between helping her and doing what I need to do at the counter/stove.


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## honeybee80 (May 24, 2005)

My DD is actually a good helper! I let her help a little bit with dinner (she put onions in the pot for soup and we cried together--lol!) I also let her wash dishes while I was doing other stuff. She put napkins out around the table. Then after dinner, I had her help me with laundry. She matched socks up and separated out the washcloths. Then she folded them (the right way even!) and put them away! I was so impressed that she knew how to fold them without me even telling her.

Anyway, I'll have to utilize the table for meal prep too. I just don't want the mess to spread farther than it has to, KWIM?

Also, I started reading Kids, Parents, and Power Struggles last night and it's really good so far! Although all day today, whenever I told DD she was doing something she wasn't supposed to, she said "But Mom, I'm just curious!" I said that one time this morning and apparently, it stuck--lol!


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## chrysalis (May 8, 2007)

she sounds a LOT like my dd meghan...who just turned 5. megh has been thru a LOT recently...we just moved back to central oregon from MN where i was engaged to a man megh considered 'daddy' (her own intiating) of almost 2 years... (see my post on 'baby talk') and so he is now out of the picture. anyway, megh doesn't take NO for an answer. she never has. now she wants something else for dinner, just wants tuna as she is pretending to be a kitty. i'm about to give in to her as how would i feel if someone gave me a dinner i didn't like and wanted something different. why NOT. ok tuna it is. but yeah....megh will absolutely refuse to do something a grown up close to her will ask her to do or not to do. i don't want to be punitive nor give consequences so i just don't know what to do. my mom is very frustrated and i don't know what to do to have my mom and her boyf treat megh differently. if megh is 'rude' to my mom, my mom will pull back and threaten to take a toy away from megh or w/draw her time spent w/ her cuz she takes meghs push/pull attachment/detachment issues lately too personally. megh is hurting...she is probably confused, angry, frustrated...wanting more control...i'm sure she misses my ex, tom, and her friends from MN very much. not to mention her dog and 2 cats we left behind...it was a very abusive situation and i was fed up so we got out of there. but even w/out the abusive family life, megh is very strong in personality. i love this about her...i'm not sure what to say though as far as when she has those uncooperative moments ie. won't wear a hat and its cold.....or......won't put on her shoes and its cold or wet outside..............or........whatever it is about......like she won't stop acting rude/talking rude to my mother or me.........i'm not sure how to stop it except kind of let it slide and she will find out that we aren't responding to it negativtely/punitively/withholdingly and also that she will learn if she is too cold or her feet get wet and cold or that people don't respond when she is rude. ok now she is demanding her tuna. so i will get it. my first instinct is to tell her not to talk to me like that. i'm not her slave. my mom will do that...she'll say don't talk to me like that meghan. megh doesn't care in that moment if she is already expressing anger or rudeness...........so saying 'don't talk to me like that' doesn't work. taking something away doesn't work truly i don't think cuz then she'll stop just to get what she wants...the toy or the play place we are going to or whatever. that is no reason just to be 'polite'. this is a toughie......i'd love to hear more input on this thread.......................................


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## Jojo F. (Apr 7, 2007)

Ahh, this thread is good. I'm happy to know it's not just my DS!!

My problem is that he repeats things with attitude. Not bad words, but things that a parent would say to get their kids to do something.

ie.-
"I mean business."
"Don't back sas me." etc.

He has a bit of an anger issue, if something doesn't work the way he wants he gets bent out of shape and is all upset. Gives up and stomps off. But I make him take a few deep breathes and we work on it together, thinking of different ways do it and using our "problem solving" skills, I will never let him give-up. If it's time for bed, he pouts and cries like it's the end of the world. Uhhh, it gets so tiring and then I think I'm crazy for wanting another one!







:

Lately I have been wanting to implement a "chore/duty" chart including things like no arguing, no whining, etc. And just yesterday I found one at the bookstore for just $20 by Melissa and Doug(I love their stuff and want the calender too). DS is pretty syked about it, he likes the idea of getting smiley faces as a reward, we also have stickers too and you'd think he won the lottery!!









For the most part he listens very well, but likes to try to compromise. At times that is acceptable, but with rules it's not and then I explain to him it is a rule and there is no room for negotiations. You break a rule, you suffer(not really the best word) the consequences. Time outs, no treats, no T.V. etc. If toys are left out and he does not pick them up at the end of the day, I bag them up and take them to Good Will. It's a great way to minimize the monsterous mound of toys!! It gets the point across that "I mean business" and to always listen. I let hi make certain desicions like what he wears. If it's hot and he wants to wear a sweater and long jeans, go ahead, butyou'll get hot and want to take them off. If it's cold and he doesn't want to wear the appropriate atire, we will change his mind when he gets out the door.

If he is behaving in an unappropriate manner I tell him. Like if he is rude and mean I tell him I don't do that to him and that if other people did it to him he would not like it. Plus if you do mean and rude things people will not want to be your friend and you will end up lonely with no friends. He sits in his room for his time out and when the time is up we talk about his desicion and how it will effect him and others. I personally cannot let things slide, he needs to understand what he is doing and why it should/n't be done.


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## chrysalis (May 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jojo F.* 
Lately I have been wanting to implement a "chore/duty" chart including things like no arguing, no whining, etc. And just yesterday I found one at the bookstore for just $20 by Melissa and Doug(I love their stuff and want the calender too). DS is pretty syked about it, he likes the idea of getting smiley faces as a reward, we also have stickers too and you'd think he won the lottery!!









For the most part he listens very well, but likes to try to compromise. At times that is acceptable, but with rules it's not and then I explain to him it is a rule and there is no room for negotiations. You break a rule, you suffer(not really the best word) the consequences. Time outs, no treats, no T.V. etc. If toys are left out and he does not pick them up at the end of the day, I bag them up and take them to Good Will. It's a great way to minimize the monsterous mound of toys!! It gets the point across that "I mean business" and to always listen.

i just can't do that way w/out feeling like crap. it just isn't in my heart to do it this way despite it being such the mainstream way of 'disciplining' children. have any of you read oh what is it called........oh ok it is the same book as 'unconditional parenting' it is just the subtitle, 'moving from punishments and rewards to love and reason...' by alfie kohn. i need to re-read that for my own sake and in dealing w/ my mother and her boyfriend in re. to my kids.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mkcmommy2003* 
My DD is actually a good helper! I let her help a little bit with dinner (she put onions in the pot for soup and we cried together--lol!) I also let her wash dishes while I was doing other stuff. She put napkins out around the table. Then after dinner, I had her help me with laundry. She matched socks up and separated out the washcloths. Then she folded them (the right way even!) and put them away! I was so impressed that she knew how to fold them without me even telling her.

I think you're on the right track, if she's anything like my dd. I am often surprised by how much my dd loves to help. I keep giving her more and more responsibilities because she just eats them up. One thing she loves to do is set the table, could your dd do that while you made dinner? Or she could fold clothes nearby? My dd also loves to fold diapers (bless her), don't know if you have any of those around.

I have no advice for bad language, because my dd uses it quite frequently. But, she did have a bad habit of calling her brothers bad and since that really bothered me, I told her that I didn't like to hear anyone called bad and gave her lots of scripts of other things she could say. Seems to be working so far!


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chrysalis* 
i just can't do that way w/out feeling like crap. it just isn't in my heart to do it this way despite it being such the mainstream way of 'disciplining' children. have any of you read oh what is it called........oh ok it is the same book as 'unconditional parenting' it is just the subtitle, 'moving from punishments and rewards to love and reason...' by alfie kohn. i need to re-read that for my own sake and in dealing w/ my mother and her boyfriend in re. to my kids.

You know, another thing I've noticed with my four year old is that it has been a great time for us to implement Anthony Wolf's method of getting compliance. I've never read Kohn, but I do not like the idea of taking away toys and shipping them to Good Will (without consent, I mean), T/O, etc. But I really love the "wait it out" approach. It just seems to save everyone's dignity.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves by Naomi Aldort? I'm reading that right now. I also have Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn, which is next on my list. I really like the book because it gives clear ways to deal with a child's emotions without punishment or shame. I also don't like the idea of giving a toy away without consent. Once I give something to my children, it is theirs. I would never throw out my dh's CDs or tools because he left them out and I would be very angry if he did that to my stuff. Now, it's another thing if the toy gets left out and then gets broken and has to be thrown out and can't be replaced. That is a natural consequence. I also don't like the idea of not letting a child give up. When my ds gets upset about something not working, I ask him if he wants my help. Sometimes he does. Sometimes he doesn't. Most times if he walks away in the moment of anger, he comes back and tries again when he's ready. I don't have to force him to do anything.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spruce* 
Other ideas...

Actions need consequences. Negative, hurtful or mess-making actions need consequences that reinforce the lesson we want to teach.

For the clothes-pulling-out, I'd really make an effort to stand there and watch while she either puts her things away, or while she watches as you box it all up to give to charity. My girls (now almost 15 and 12) learned the "don't abuse your stuff" lesson in one fell swoop...they had to box up and carry and mail a HUGE container of Barbie dolls and accessories. I had them send it to their cousin, and they had to pay the shipping. This was when they were 6 and 4 years old. It was very punitive, but IMHO, sometimes that's the way to go. ( I know I disagree with many Mamas on this board about punitive repercussions...)

For saying naughty, not-allowed words, time in her room or writing sentences might be apropo. At times these are just limit tests for kids...telling her that "dammit" is not allowed in your house and she'll have to go away from other people until she can abide by the rules might make an impact.

My kids are also given pushups or jumping jacks to do for infractions of known rules.

Good luck.









love, penelope

First off, nothing you posted qualifies as GD. Period.

Additionally you said this:

Quote:

Negative, hurtful or mess-making actions need consequences that reinforce the lesson we want to teach.
What lesson are you trying to teach to a 4 and 6 year old when you take away their clothing and toys and require they pay for shipping? Because you certainly aren't teaching love, understanding or cooperation or respect at all.


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## chrysalis (May 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
First off, nothing you posted qualifies as GD. Period.

Additionally you said this:

What lesson are you trying to teach to a 4 and 6 year old when you take away their clothing and toys and require they pay for shipping? Because you certainly aren't teaching love, understanding or cooperation or respect at all.









: i also don't agree that this is GD at all. i was second guessing my knowledge on the actual term of GD as i never called my ways that...i am AP...i believe in the unconditional parenting and raising our children/raising ourselves as well as in connective parenting...i felt those fell into GD as well...........good to know i am in the right place after all. whew.


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spruce* 
Other ideas...

Actions need consequences. Negative, hurtful or mess-making actions need consequences that reinforce the lesson we want to teach.

For the clothes-pulling-out, I'd really make an effort to stand there and watch while she either puts her things away, or while she watches as you box it all up to give to charity. My girls (now almost 15 and 12) learned the "don't abuse your stuff" lesson in one fell swoop...they had to box up and carry and mail a HUGE container of Barbie dolls and accessories. I had them send it to their cousin, and they had to pay the shipping. This was when they were 6 and 4 years old. It was very punitive, but IMHO, sometimes that's the way to go. ( I know I disagree with many Mamas on this board about punitive repercussions...)

For saying naughty, not-allowed words, time in her room or writing sentences might be apropo. At times these are just limit tests for kids...telling her that "dammit" is not allowed in your house and she'll have to go away from other people until she can abide by the rules might make an impact.

My kids are also given pushups or jumping jacks to do for infractions of known rules.

Good luck.









love, penelope

This whole post makes me really sad.

It seems to me that the consequence for a child who has engaged in "negative or hurtful actions" is that she will learn that her mother will one-up her by creating something more negative and hurtful. Sounds like the old hitting a child to get him to stop hitting theory.

I certainly don't see anything wrong with asking a child who has taken all of her clothing out of her closet to put it back, but to send it all to a cousin? I call that bullying.


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## dillonandmarasmom (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg* 
My soon-to-be-4 year old loves to scrub potatoes, peel vegetables, sprinkle spices/sugar, stir, pour liquids. She can stand next to the stove on a stool, with close supervision, to stir things in a pan (not at boiling temperatures or when grease can splatter, but when we're simmering or mixing with the heat off). She loves to put toppings on homemade pizza. She likes to wash lettuce and spin it in the salad spinner. She likes to sprinkle cheese and carrots on the salad. She can grate cheese with a box grater. She can use the can opener if I get it started for her. She can pour from cans into pans.

She will "wash" dishes next to me while I cook, set the table (with dishes, utensils, salad dressing, napkins-whatever we need and she can reach), she'll go get me things I need like cans of veggies or ingredients she can reach in the fridge. She'll wash the windows or front of the fridge with a spray bottle and towel.

Have you read Raising Your Spirited Child? That's another good one.

Ditto to your entire post







. All these are lifesavers!


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## dillonandmarasmom (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves by Naomi Aldort? I'm reading that right now. I also have Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn, which is next on my list. I really like the book because it gives clear ways to deal with a child's emotions without punishment or shame. I also don't like the idea of giving a toy away without consent. Once I give something to my children, it is theirs. I would never throw out my dh's CDs or tools because he left them out and I would be very angry if he did that to my stuff. Now, it's another thing if the toy gets left out and then gets broken and has to be thrown out and can't be replaced. That is a natural consequence. I also don't like the idea of not letting a child give up. When my ds gets upset about something not working, I ask him if he wants my help. Sometimes he does. Sometimes he doesn't. Most times if he walks away in the moment of anger, he comes back and tries again when he's ready. I don't have to force him to do anything.

Yep. I totally agree, and thank you for saying all of this.


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## Jojo F. (Apr 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves by Naomi Aldort? I'm reading that right now. I also have Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn, which is next on my list. I really like the book because it gives clear ways to deal with a child's emotions without punishment or shame. I also don't like the idea of giving a toy away without consent. Once I give something to my children, it is theirs. I would never throw out my dh's CDs or tools because he left them out and I would be very angry if he did that to my stuff. Now, it's another thing if the toy gets left out and then gets broken and has to be thrown out and can't be replaced. That is a natural consequence. I also don't like the idea of not letting a child give up. When my ds gets upset about something not working, I ask him if he wants my help. Sometimes he does. Sometimes he doesn't. Most times if he walks away in the moment of anger, he comes back and tries again when he's ready. I don't have to force him to do anything.


I feel like this response paints me to be a bad, mean mom. I do not force him to keep trying. He can walk away and then come back to it. We work on it together, talk about what got him frustrated and think of different ways to do it. I don't him growing thinking if it's hard the first time he tries to just give up have others do it for him.

Just today, he wanted to draw a christmas tree and got all bent out of shape his did not look like mine, so I showed him different ways of drawing it, talked about his frustration and worked on it together. If he needs to let it out he can go in his room and yell or throw some pillows.

The toys- they have been broken because they are literally every where. I clean up my things, DH cleans up his, so DS should clean up his.

He is never shamed or punished for his emotions(I went through too much of that myself). We talk about how we feel and why and learn appropriate ways to express ourselves.

Just wanted to clear a bit of the air.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jojo F.* 
But I make him take a few deep breathes and we work on it together, thinking of different ways do it and using our "problem solving" skills, I will never let him give-up.

I was responding to this. Sorry if I misunderstood. Maybe it was just your choice of words. Things get lost in translation on the internet sometimes. I'm not trying to make anyone feel like a bad or mean mom. I'm certainly not perfect. I just don't think it's respectful of the individual to force anything or not let him be whatever he is in the moment. I have learned from past mistakes with my oldest ds how harmful this type of attitude toward children can be. Sometimes it's ok to give up. I've tried many things that I thought I would enjoy but eventually decided I didn't like and gave them up. I don't think that will make someone a quitter. I think it helps children learn that it's ok for them to choose their own paths rather than continuing on with something that is not enjoyable for them for someone else's sake.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Here is my 4-year-old thread:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=776304


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jojo F.* 
You break a rule, you suffer(not really the best word) the consequences. Time outs, no treats, no T.V. etc. If toys are left out and he does not pick them up at the end of the day, I bag them up and take them to Good Will. It's a great way to minimize the monsterous mound of toys!! It gets the point across that "I mean business" and to always listen.

If he is behaving in an unappropriate manner I tell him. Like if he is rude and mean I tell him I don't do that to him and that if other people did it to him he would not like it. Plus if you do mean and rude things people will not want to be your friend and you will end up lonely with no friends. He sits in his room for his time out and when the time is up we talk about his desicion and how it will effect him and others. I personally cannot let things slide, he needs to understand what he is doing and why it should/n't be done.

what a contrast of the first paragraph and the second. You don't think that bagging up any toys he leaves out at the end of the day is mean or rude? I certainly do. How old is your ds?

Do you realize how much you are increasing the risk of your son being abused by raising a child that is expected to always be obedient and compliant? Luckily he sounds like he has a very good head on his shoulders and that is why he pushes negotiation and compromise. I'd seriously consider fostering more of that. Kids that are taught to blindly do what they are told for fear of the consequences, such as having their things given away are at the highest risk of sex abuse. These kids are much more easily manipulated to keep secrets and blackmailed to do things they otherwise wouldn't.


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## mariamaroo (Aug 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
So if I was cooking dinner, I would invite him into the kitchen with me and give him every little task that I could think of. Scrubbing potatos, setting the table, washing dishes, I'd even make stuff up sometimes. Have him reorganize the fridge or something. He helped with EVERYTHING.

My daughter will refuse to help; I don't know what to do in that case. I don't want THAT to turn into a power struggle.


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## DavinaT (Jun 28, 2005)

Getting a 4 and 6 year old to box up and carry and mail a HUGE container of treasured toys, send them away and pay the shipping.
Bagging up and sending a childs toys to a charity becuase he didn't put them away at the end of the day.








:

I was the messiest child goign and my patrents were by no means perfect but they did not do THAT to me

As for pushups or jumping jacks for infractions of known rules - makes it sound like an army bootcamp to me.

My grandmother had a great phrase - 'divilment' (devilment - monir misbehaviour) or distraction.
I would be far quicker to involve a child - even if washinfg the potatoes ended up more like washing the floor.


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## Jojo F. (Apr 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
what a contrast of the first paragraph and the second. You don't think that bagging up any toys he leaves out at the end of the day is mean or rude? I certainly do. How old is your ds?

Do you realize how much you are increasing the risk of your son being abused by raising a child that is expected to always be obedient and compliant? Luckily he sounds like he has a very good head on his shoulders and that is why he pushes negotiation and compromise. I'd seriously consider fostering more of that. Kids that are taught to blindly do what they are told for fear of the consequences, such as having their things given away are at the highest risk of sex abuse. These kids are much more easily manipulated to keep secrets and blackmailed to do things they otherwise wouldn't.

There is another response from me that explains the toy thing, they have been stepped on, broken and thrown away, but I think I need to explain better. I ask him to clean up, he doesn't. So I then ask him if he would like to give those toys away to someone who would really appreciate them. The obvious response is no and then he cleans up. I have neve actually bagged up any toys and given them away. He is very close to being 5.

So, because I have certain rules like no hitting, etc. I'm setting him up for future abuse? He gets a time out and then we talk about his decision to hit, kick, whatever. It's a clear cut rule, no negotiations.


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## crystalw (Feb 16, 2007)

One thing I have drilled into my daughter is that if she asks me for something in a rude way it makes me not want to do it. I don't tell her this in anger but in a very nice, calm way. I even talk to her about the way I ask her to do things and if I asked in a "mean" way would she want to do it, etc.

My only other suggestion is that we did go through a period where she was mean to me. Not just rude but kind of mean as well (I blame too much tv and have changed our rules on that). I tried everything I could to get her to stop. I got mad, I gave time outs, I reasoned with her, I denied her things... nothing worked. I finally decided to try to "love" it out of her. I figured that perhaps the best thing was to set a good example of how I wanted to be treated. So I gave her extra love and was extra super sweet when I spoke to her. I pet her hair a lot and told her how great she was. You know, about a week later I got my sweet little girl back


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crystalw* 
I finally decided to try to "love" it out of her. I figured that perhaps the best thing was to set a good example of how I wanted to be treated. So I gave her extra love and was extra super sweet when I spoke to her. I pet her hair a lot and told her how great she was. You know, about a week later I got my sweet little girl back









I love this. This is what I'm trying to do with my teen, whom I failed miserably when he was just a little guy. I think this can do wonders.

I think this attitude, meanness or whatever you want to call it is very age appropriate. The thing is to try to find a way to respond to it with respect and empathy rather than violence, threats or coercion.

Jojo ~ I don't think it's necessarily the rules that are the problem. It's that there may be a different way of dealing with the "attitude" without using threats or coercion. There's a difference between the child who does something because he feels good about it and the child who does something because he's been threatened.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crystalw* 
I finally decided to try to "love" it out of her. I figured that perhaps the best thing was to set a good example of how I wanted to be treated. So I gave her extra love and was extra super sweet when I spoke to her. I pet her hair a lot and told her how great she was. You know, about a week later I got my sweet little girl back









I love this, too! It's really been my experience that what goes around, comes around.







:


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## Xoe (Oct 28, 2007)

*Keep reminding yourself* that people in NY apartments actually live with smaller kitchens than your own.....and some even have small bathtubs in the kitchen....seriously. I'll try to find a pic of THAT for you!

xoe


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## Xoe (Oct 28, 2007)

....and here you go. For those who don't believe it-- here's an example of a NY apt. that has a bathtub in the kitchen:

http://www.etsy.com/view_listing.php?listing_id=8074848

xoe


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

At least the toilet is in a separate room.


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## honeybee80 (May 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crystalw* 
I finally decided to try to "love" it out of her. I figured that perhaps the best thing was to set a good example of how I wanted to be treated. So I gave her extra love and was extra super sweet when I spoke to her. I pet her hair a lot and told her how great she was. You know, about a week later I got my sweet little girl back









I love this too! Thanks for posting this. I'll have to try it, but I think it's going to be really HARD when she's being incredibly obnoxious!









Another question: What about when she continues to do something unacceptable? She was just jumping on her bed and I firmly (not meanly) sat her down and told her it was not okay and she could get hurt if she falls off. She did it again and I repeated the same thing, then she did it again, etc. Any tricks I'm not aware of regarding this type of behavior??


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## honeybee80 (May 24, 2005)

Oh, and re: the bathtub in the kitchen--WOW, that's a creative use of space


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## Xoe (Oct 28, 2007)

....ahhhh, but here's what I was really lookimg for! In the '80s I had a boyfriend who lived with 3 other guys on Manhattan's swanky, Upper East Side. They probably paid between $800-$1000 a month for their apartment. In the kitchen, the apt had a high, long sink with a wooden board over half of it. Lift the board, and tada! The thing converted into a bathtub. As a middle class, Midwestern girl, I had barely ever seen an apartment, nevertheless imagined someone might put a tub in the kitchen of one, so I was shocked. But as with most things in NY, I soon came to accept that things were done differently there. (These days, I think this kind of araingement is illegal.)

Here's a crude drawing and and an illustrative remembrance:
http://cvil.wustl.edu/~gary/Lee/bio-nyc.html


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mkcmommy2003* 
Another question: What about when she continues to do something unacceptable? She was just jumping on her bed and I firmly (not meanly) sat her down and told her it was not okay and she could get hurt if she falls off. She did it again and I repeated the same thing, then she did it again, etc. Any tricks I'm not aware of regarding this type of behavior??

If your worry is that she'll get hurt, can you two engage in some problem solving so that she is safer? LIke put all the pillows around on the floor? You act as a spotter? Have her jump in the middle of the bed? Etc.

I've been amazed at how much more cooperative my kid is with me when I can demonstrate cooperativeness with him--like finding a way for him to jump on the bed that doesn't end in an ER visit or give me more gray hairs than I've got!


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## Heffernhyphen (May 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spruce* 

Actions need consequences. Negative, hurtful or mess-making actions need consequences that reinforce the lesson we want to teach.


I agree.

I'm a Pre-K teacher who spends her life surrounded by four-year-olds. Recently the student of a fellow teacher was pretty much banned from the classroom during naptime. She's so noisy and disruptive that the other kids have a hard time sleeping. Up until now, the teacher has passed her off to various rooms to get some peace. Since my recess is the same time as her naptime, she has now asked if I will just take the little girl to recess with us so her kids can rest.

Okay, I'm all about helping my peers, but now we're rewarding a child for not cooperating???







: When I voiced this concern with her teacher, she said, "No, we're not rewarding her; we're accommodating the needs of a non-napper." Oy . . . .

What do you guys think of this? I don't think it's doing the child any favors in the long run.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

ITA with her, the only way you'd view such a decision as a "reward" is if you view napping as a punishment. Kids nap needs are individual and if she doesn't need one and as a result is disrupting the kids that do I'm all for more recess instead or other accomidation. Of course I really don't give a crap about arbitrary rules or the idea that all things need to be equal for all children. Meeting the specific and unique needs of each child is most important thing. Which is why I HS'd.

It sounds like the real disagreement is with the concept that the child isn't obeying an adult and about feeling frustrated at not being able to force compliance. Which is not GD IMO.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I wanted to add when I taught preschool the kids that weren't able to sleep that day for whatever reason were given other options for nap time, you can't force a child to sleep if they aren't tired.


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## Heffernhyphen (May 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
I wanted to add when I taught preschool the kids that weren't able to sleep that day for whatever reason were given other options for nap time, you can't force a child to sleep if they aren't tired.


No arguement here on that point. I'm in the classroom even as we speak and it's naptime. The three who don't nap are currently working in the Writing Center and reading in the Reading Center. I don't require them to stay quietly on mats and rest like some teachers do. But I do require quiet so others who need sleep get it.

You also make a good point that the opposite of a reward must be a punishment. But I can't help but feel that this is reinforcing bad behavior. (I know, that's probably a poor choice of terms in this forum.) The teacher asks her to be quiet, she continues to be disruptive, she gets to go and have an extra recess. What is her incentive to do anything the teacher asks if she can just act however she wants and face no consequences, and in fact, get rewarded? Being quiet during naptime is not an arbitrary rule; it's necessary so that the 17 children who do want to sleep can. Is it okay for a child to say, "Nope, that's not a rule I choose to follow. And you can't make me."

Also, what do we say to the other children who will work quietly in the room but would certainly prefer a third recess? No, sorry, that accommodation is just for her because she's the squeakiest wheel.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I agree that I think letting the girl go out for recess sounds like an excellent way to deal with the situation. I wouldn't consider it a reward. I would consider it taking the needs of the child into consideration and finding a working solution. Not everyone can sit still and work quietly. Sounds like this girl has more physical energy that she needs to release than the other kids. I'm not clear on how it's reinforcing "bad" behavior because I don't see that she's doing anything bad. Is she running around the room screaming at the other children who are sleeping that she wants to go outside or bopping them on the heads or something like that?

On jumping on the bed, I don't see this as an unacceptable behavior. If safety is truly the concern, I agree with the PP about finding ways to make is safe. If there's another reason for thinking it's unacceptable, maybe re-evaluating your opinion on that would be helpful. I know that was one of those things that was drilled into me as a child. Children should not jump on beds. I never knew why, though, and I don't see any reason that my kids can't do it. Maybe it was because the bed might get broken. If that's the case, I don't really care about that.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

I agree with MarineWife.

There are a lot of rules my mom had when I was growing up that I refuse to put on my children.

Sitting on the dining table, jumping on the bed, telling me no.
I let them and see nothing wrong with it.

But then, I don't have a bed frame. The box spring and mattress sit right on the floor.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heffernhyphen* 
You also make a good point that the opposite of a reward must be a punishment. But I can't help but feel that this is reinforcing bad behavior. (I know, that's probably a poor choice of terms in this forum.) The teacher asks her to be quiet, she continues to be disruptive, she gets to go and have an extra recess. What is her incentive to do anything the teacher asks if she can just act however she wants and face no consequences, and in fact, get rewarded? Being quiet during naptime is not an arbitrary rule; it's necessary so that the 17 children who do want to sleep can. Is it okay for a child to say, "Nope, that's not a rule I choose to follow. And you can't make me."

Also, what do we say to the other children who will work quietly in the room but would certainly prefer a third recess? No, sorry, that accommodation is just for her because she's the squeakiest wheel.

ok again, I don't view recess as a reward or "extra" she is getting what she needs the other kids are getting what they need, which some most of them is rest. The kids that are able and want to play or read quietly aren't being punished as it's meeting their needs also. We had kids that also played or read quietly instead of sleeping, and it was fine. Some kids need down time, but not actual sleep. So all the kids needs are being met. If any of the quietly reading kids would rather outside recess time, no problem IMO.

I think the problem is the attitude of looking at these issues as a power struggle. As if a kid having a different need than is planned for is somehow usurping authority. IME kids that have their needs met are more likely to be cooperative. Turning everything into a battle of wills forces kids into situations that they don't need and are not in their best interest. Of course my goal is not compliant children that follow rules because someone said so but kids that have critical thinking skills and know who they are, develop personal values and have the backbone to stick up for themselves.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
Of course my goal is not compliant children that follow rules because someone said so but kids that have critical thinking skills and know who they are, develop personal values and have the backbone to stick up for themselves.









:


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
I think the problem is the attitude of looking at these issues as a power struggle.
As if a kid having a different need than is planned for is somehow usurping authority.
IME kids that have their needs met are more likely to be cooperative.
Turning everything into a battle of wills forces kids into situations that they don't need and are not in their best interest.
Of course my goal is not compliant children that follow rules because someone said so but kids that have critical thinking skills and know who they are, develop personal values and have the backbone to stick up for themselves.









:


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## honeybee80 (May 24, 2005)

The difficult thing with jumping on the bed is that if it was just my DD, I probably would be fine with it. The problem is that my 2yo, who can't really jump--lol, likes to do it too. I'm more afraid of him getting hurt than her. They get really wound up and I KNOW if one of them gets hurt, it's going to be him, and then I'm really going to feel bad and unfortunately, will probably blame it on her (which I KNOW is not right). Is it ridiculous to feel that way? Should I just get over it?


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mkcmommy2003* 
The difficult thing with jumping on the bed is that if it was just my DD, I probably would be fine with it. The problem is that my 2yo, who can't really jump--lol, likes to do it too. I'm more afraid of him getting hurt than her. They get really wound up and I KNOW if one of them gets hurt, it's going to be him, and then I'm really going to feel bad and unfortunately, will probably blame it on her (which I KNOW is not right). Is it ridiculous to feel that way? Should I just get over it?

That's when I would look for ways to make it safe for both of them. And, yes, you need to get over the thought of blaming your dd. Unless she purposely picked your 2yo up and threw him on the floor, for example, it's not her fault if he gets hurt.


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## Heffernhyphen (May 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
If any of the quietly reading kids would rather outside recess time, no problem IMO.


Actually, it's not even possible. There is only one class who naps during a time when another class (mine) is on the playground. When my class naps, no one is on the playground and therefore they can't go. So the problem here is how do we explain that Jane doesn't have to be quiet but you do. Jane "needs" three recesses a day, but, sorry, you only get two. The kids who do follow the rules (being quiet while others nap, even if it's hard) are the ones who are really being punished in this scenario.

Quote:

Of course my goal is not compliant children that follow rules because someone said so but kids that have critical thinking skills and know who they are, develop personal values and have the backbone to stick up for themselves.
Again, being quiet during nap, IMO, is not blindly obeying a rule for obedience sake. It's being respectful and cooperative. Don't kids have to learn that, too?


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I'll be honest, I think you are more interested in compliance than meeting the individual childrens needs. I mean you have so little respect for them that you put the word needs in quotes. And to that end there will be nothing I can say that will be workable for you as we see children in very different ways.


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## Jojo F. (Apr 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
If your worry is that she'll get hurt, can you two engage in some problem solving so that she is safer? LIke put all the pillows around on the floor? You act as a spotter? Have her jump in the middle of the bed? Etc.

I've been amazed at how much more cooperative my kid is with me when I can demonstrate cooperativeness with him--like finding a way for him to jump on the bed that doesn't end in an ER visit or give me more gray hairs than I've got!









Totally agree. DS's bed is close to ground so I have no problem letting him jump on the bed. He's definitely a jumper and wants to jump off of everything and we always end up with pillows everywhere.

We compromise with everything(can you believe that I actually compromise?!







) except for the rules. If he wants to throw mud- we find an appropriate way, throw food- find an appropriate way, what he wants to eat- I give him healthy choices of what is made, when he gets his one sweet, etc.

I want to sneak this book suggestment in(it's not in the sticky but should be)- "How To Negotiate With Kids...even when you think you shouldn't" by Scott Brown.


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## OrganicMermaid (Nov 29, 2007)

Lately I have been wanting to implement a "chore/duty" chart including things like no arguing, no whining, etc. And just yesterday I found one at the bookstore for just $20 by Melissa and Doug(I love their stuff and want the calender too). DS is pretty syked about it, he likes the idea of getting smiley faces as a reward, we also have stickers too and you'd think he won the lottery!!









I had to respond to this post. My 4 1/2 year old DD is "strong willed," "strong minded," "spirited" etc. Whatever you want to call it. The best thing I ever did was implement a "Reward Board" similar to the one you're talking about. I'm personally not a big fan of Melissa and Doug (too much of their stuff is Made in China) but I bought a dry erase board that has a blank calendar on it. DD has four different things she can earn points for. Be very careful not to make the things "no Arguing" or "No Whining" - Use Positives!!! Like "Listened the first time" or "Shared my toys". Be careful not to have too many items otherwise it just becomes way too complex for a 4 year old. We've limited ourselves to four behaviors. Once a behavior has been modified we change it up. Be sure to start off with some really simple things to make it fun, then make it more challenging.

For example, we knew DD can get dressed by herself, so every time she dressed herself without demanding us to help, she got a point. After about 2 weeks she got the hang of the Reward Board and the points and we got to change it out to more difficult behaviors like "Listen the FIRST time."

THe key here is that it's a REWARD Board. She accrues points to do something she really likes. DD's things are "movie night" worth 10 points. "Sleepover" worth 15 points. SOme things we had to take off as rewards because it wasn't enough of an incentive for her (for example we had go to the library as a reward...well, she could have cared less when I reminded her she might not have enough points to go to the library.)

So sometimes when I anticipate a difficult time, I preface whatever I have to say with, "ooooh, I'm so excited, I just know you're about to earn a point for XYZ!"

And at the end of the week, she starts all over with the points. (We use different color magnets to serve as points.) Other behaviors we've included to modify behavior include "Sitting on the furniture" (as opposed to "no jumping on the couch"). This method helps point out the positives these kids are craving, rather than the attention for the negatives.

Good luck!


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## Jojo F. (Apr 7, 2007)

OrganicMermaid-

I agree, I don't use the whining or arguing one, but just to see those made me think of "respect" and "listen" as well. I used the simple ones that he already does and added getting ready for school. Heh, we allow jumping on the couch







:

But none the less, it gets him more involved with his "responsibilites". He likes to pick out which smiley faces to use next and then he gets a cool sticker for completing all of them or we rent a movie for him. I'm surprised at how well it is working, he can look at the chart and knows what needs to be not next(nothing hard just things that he can do like you mentioned).


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crystalw* 
My only other suggestion is that we did go through a period where she was mean to me. Not just rude but kind of mean as well (I blame too much tv and have changed our rules on that). I tried everything I could to get her to stop. I got mad, I gave time outs, I reasoned with her, I denied her things... nothing worked. I finally decided to try to "love" it out of her. I figured that perhaps the best thing was to set a good example of how I wanted to be treated. So I gave her extra love and was extra super sweet when I spoke to her. I pet her hair a lot and told her how great she was. You know, about a week later I got my sweet little girl back









I love this, too!! Thanks for sharing it.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *mkcmommy2003* 
I love this too! Thanks for posting this. I'll have to try it, but I think it's going to be really HARD when she's being incredibly obnoxious!









One suggestion to help build the love when she's driving you crazy







is to look at her when she's sleeping. It's easy to love them when they're looking so angelic and sleeping peacefully. I also look back at old baby pictures and draw on those tender feelings when I'm facing tough times with my ds. It helps me see past the behavior and see just the child I adore.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mkcmommy2003* 
The difficult thing with jumping on the bed is that if it was just my DD, I probably would be fine with it. The problem is that my 2yo, who can't really jump--lol, likes to do it too. I'm more afraid of him getting hurt than her. They get really wound up and I KNOW if one of them gets hurt, it's going to be him, and then I'm really going to feel bad and unfortunately, will probably blame it on her (which I KNOW is not right). Is it ridiculous to feel that way? Should I just get over it?

We have this problem, too. I have no problem with jumping on the bed, but with a toddler it can be tricky. Our bed is a king with a twin bumped up against it and both are on the floor. So the only real safety issue is them bonking heads. So I watch and am there to make sure there's enough space between them. Do you feel like it can be safe if you're there to supervise?


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## Xoe (Oct 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
ok again, I don't view recess as a reward or "extra" she is getting what she needs the other kids are getting what they need, which some most of them is rest. The kids that are able and want to play or read quietly aren't being punished as it's meeting their needs also. We had kids that also played or read quietly instead of sleeping, and it was fine. Some kids need down time, but not actual sleep. So all the kids needs are being met. If any of the quietly reading kids would rather outside recess time, no problem IMO.

*In Support of Heffernhyphen*

okay....now i don't think you are being fair to H. as a kid who could never stand naps at naptime in kindergarten, i have to say lying there in the dimmness, being forced to think quietly to myself, was not the meanest thing that could have happened to me-- although it was not easy and i resented it at the time. i would have loved more recess. but i learned to be creatve during an uncomfortable time for me. that type of thing has helped me survive two awful pregnancies, and a host of other things that require....patience and creative utilization of uncomfortable situations.

but aside from that-- let's face it: some kids need down time, but would not voluntarily choose what they need. give one kid recess, and most of the kids who are reading will say, hey-- send me to recess too! then most of the kids who can sleep will say, hey, my other classmates are outside playing, and i'm missing out on the fun-- screw the nap whether i need it or not. only one kid still takes naps, two choose to read, and you've got almost two, full classes on the playground at the same time.....then kids in other classes hear that you can skip nap and quiet ime if you want to, and on and on....how many classes can you have on the playground at any one time? and if the parents wanted their kids to have recess all day, with no down time, they should have sent them to the wacky gym or the little gym instead of preschool, right?

so many of you support mom's who require their kids take a quiet time so the mom's can keep their sanity. you say give choices-- and H says there are three choices for the kids at that time. but somehow she and her colleagues are being thoughtless, uncreative dictators when the require kids to choose from three quit activities once a day? well, lets get rid of traffic lights, too. what about my need for speed? lol! i know how to think for myself, and shouldn't be forced to accomodate the needs of the group. i can't drive 55, as the song goes. (...or even 65, for that matter.)

xoe


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heffernhyphen* 
I agree.

I'm a Pre-K teacher who spends her life surrounded by four-year-olds. Recently the student of a fellow teacher was pretty much banned from the classroom during naptime. She's so noisy and disruptive that the other kids have a hard time sleeping. Up until now, the teacher has passed her off to various rooms to get some peace. Since my recess is the same time as her naptime, she has now asked if I will just take the little girl to recess with us so her kids can rest.

Okay, I'm all about helping my peers, but now we're rewarding a child for not cooperating???







: When I voiced this concern with her teacher, she said, "No, we're not rewarding her; we're accommodating the needs of a non-napper." Oy . . . .

What do you guys think of this? I don't think it's doing the child any favors in the long run.

I was this kid in preschool. I simply couldn't sleep during the day. Or sit still. I didn't mean to be disruptive, but it was almost painful to have to stay quiet in the middle of the day. I ended up being sent into the hallway, unsupervised.

My daughter wouldn't have been able to have "quiet time" or a nap in the middle of the day either. We're all wired differently. I only sent her to half-day preschool to avoid the nap issue. I knew she'd never be able to take a nap in the middle of the day.

I think recess is exactly the answer. What the kid needs is to run around and work some energy out.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I also think naps/quiet times should be about meeting a need. I would have no problem with a child who demonstrated a need for more physical activity, to have extra time on the playground. That can surely be handled in a discreet manner, without disrupting the other children (who I am guessing are disrupted now, because this child is being active while they try and rest).

I agree that this raises the question--is nap time about meeting needs or enforcing compliance? All issues of compliance are not the same. A rule about hand washing or leaving muddy shoes at the door is not the same as a rule about taking a nap, or cleaning your plate. Sure, some compliance is necessary to keep the space clean and safe. Other rules are, upon inspection, arbitrary and easily replaced with flexibility that takes into account individual needs.

If this child needs more physical activity she will be calmer and more cooperative in the long run for having had it. If most of the children seem to need a quiet time, it is fortunate that they can have it. It seems that a continuum of needs is already demonstrated in the class which the children accept without hysteria--some sleep, some read, some play quietly. One child leaves the room discreetly. I'm sure the teachers involved can explain her absence without it posing a disruption to the class.

(On the flip side, I think older children who still need naps should be allowed to have them in school. Science has repeatedly proven the potential for better brain function if periods of short rest are available...but I digress)


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Xoe* 
give one kid recess, and most of the kids who are reading will say, hey-- send me to recess too! then most of the kids who can sleep will say, hey, my other classmates are outside playing, and i'm missing out on the fun-- screw the nap whether i need it or not. only one kid still takes naps, two choose to read, and you've got almost two, full classes on the playground at the same time.....then kids in other classes hear that you can skip nap and quiet ime if you want to, and on and on....how many classes can you have on the playground at any one time? and if the parents wanted their kids to have recess all day, with no down time, they should have sent them to the wacky gym or the little gym instead of preschool, right?


I don't make parenting decisions based on the slippery slope argument.

Additionally I'll add that kids that are raised to have their needs respected do not IME choose to do things "just because they can get away with them". There is no need as there isn't an adversarial relationship between parent and child, there is one of mutual respect and cooperation. I have never ever have my dd whine or say that "so and so gets to do it, why not me" which is what you are trying to avoid, but failing to see that the cause comes not from the child, but from the parent or other authority figure who has created the situation by setting arbitrary rules for all regardless of the individual needs of the children involved.


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## Xoe (Oct 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
I don't make parenting decisions based on the slippery slope argument..

But this is not an individual parenting decision being made. This is a school decision being made on behalf of a group of kids in an enviornment where a variety of needs have to be met, goals have been set, and perhaps parents have paid for the experience, been told what to expect-- and therefore have expectations. It's okay that you don't make your parenting decisions based on slippery slope arguments. What you do with your child is best decided by you and your child. But when teachers have so many pressures and expectations placed on them by so many people-- including each and every paying parent -- *it's not fair to expect that they can educate your kids in the same manner that you parent your kids.*

I'd say more, but I have to go. However, I really don't understand why people are coming down on Hef because she says one child should not be allowed to annoy an entire classroom of others, just because three quiet options don't suit this child's individual needs. My girlfriend's son didn't fit into a particular Montessori pre-school, and they asked her to take him out. She sent him to another school, where his behavior was accomodated. On the other hand, I wouldn't want my daughter to have to be in a classroom where my friend's son's behavior is accomodated, because it would upset her. Right now I keep her at home. When I do look at schools for her, I will make the effort to find one that suits her best. If I don't find a school that can accomodate her individual needs, I will homeschool her. If I can't homeschool her, I expect she will have to adjust on this world's slippery slopes.

xoe
who still doesn't want to drive 55. wanna accomodate me?


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## Xoe (Oct 28, 2007)

heartmama said:


> I also think naps/quiet times should be about meeting a need. I would have no problem with a child who demonstrated a need for more physical activity, to have extra time on the playground. *That can surely be handled in a discreet manner,* without disrupting the other children (who I am guessing are disrupted now, because this child is being active while they try and rest).
> 
> 
> > Now this makes sense to me. "Discreet" is the key word. Otherwise, I sure hope her parents can find a school that is a better fit for her.
> ...


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Xoe* 
However, I really don't understand why people are coming down on Hef because she says one child should not be allowed to annoy an entire classroom of others, just because three quiet options don't suit this child's individual needs.

Huh? No one said that the child should be allowed to annoy the other students, we just have a very different idea about the how that should be accomplished. Her issue is that she doesn't want this child to be able to have that recess time that is available to her. Because she sees it was a "reward". We said we agreed with the other teacher that allowing her to have a recess time instead of annoying the other kids was in the best interests of the child and the other students.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Not to totally throw something else in the mix, although I guess I am, but I've always been curious about kindergarteners having naps. By the time my children were 3 they were completely done with naps. I can't imagine having them at home for 2-3 years without naps to then be put in a situation where they have to nap or at least sit quietly. That just seems very strange to me because it would never occur to me that a 5 or 6 year old would need a nap.


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## LeosMama (Sep 6, 2005)

Chrysalis, regarding Meghan...

When my son orders me around or sasses me, I ask him to change his tone of voice, and then model it for him. He honestly doesn't know any better and doesn't understand when I'm upset by his tone. If I say it back to him the way I'd like to hear it, and then refuse to comply/help until he's polite/respectful, he figures it out real quick and changes his tone and words.

This is working for us, and slowly his tone and phrasing are improving.

Of course, this is all that I do right, I'm totally perplexed by the rest of his very age-appropriate behavior. lol


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## mama2claire (Oct 31, 2003)

*But, she did have a bad habit of calling her brothers bad and since that really bothered me, I told her that I didn't like to hear anyone called bad and gave her lots of scripts of other things she could say. Seems to be working so far!*

Can you share some of those scripts? It drives me bonkers when I hear my 4 y.o. screaming at my almost 2 y.o. that she's bad or hitting her, pushing her, telling her she's going to kill her, etc. It makes me want to scoop up my 'baby' and go hide. I feel so badly that she has to endure my 4 y.o.'s mean streak. I guess I have to just deal with it since it may just be a fact of their birth order, but it really upsets me.

As for chores... this only works for us when it's DD's idea. If I ask her to be involved, I'd say 75% of the time she refuses. And, like someone else mentioned, I don't want the power struggle over setting the table, so I let it go. Then, other times, she'll sit down in front of a basket of laundry and start folding









I don't want anymore reward based stuff because I feel like: 1) she already goes through that in pre-k and 2) I have concerns about 'over rewarding' and developing in her a sense that everything deserves a prize, when in fact, there are some things you do just because it's necessary, helpful, etc. I will say that rewards do work for her though, so am I crazy not to be doing that?

4 has definitely been the hardest age though, DD has lost so much of her sweetness, it's hard to stay in a positive frame of mind with her. That's a good idea about watching them while they sleep or looking at baby pictures. I sure don't get many loving moments out of her these days, so maybe a trip down memory lane would re-kindle the warm fuzzies in me.







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