# somebody here must be able to defend this parenting practice



## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

You people are great at showing me other points of view. In what universe is the following appropriate parenting behavior?

Yesterday we had a BBQ at our house. DD is 2yo, our friends' daughter is 18mos. The girls had a great time playing together. The four parents took turns keeping an eye on them.

We have an island in the middle of our kitchen, bar height, with a granite countertop. At one point the other mom was sitting in the kitchen with the two little girls, who were sitting on the barstools at the island.

Suddenly, I looked up and saw _both toddlers standing up on the island, dancing_. The mom was standing there laughing with them.

I. Was. Furious.

What the *&$% was this woman thinking, letting them stand up there? She explained that my DD said "up, up!" so obviously, she wanted to get up there.







:

It is dangerous for a toddler to be up there, and the LAST thing I wanted was my daughter learning that it was a FUN place to be. Plus it's freaking GROSS to stand on the table, where people eat. Who in their right mind would go to somebody else's house and stand on the table??

Now, I'm all for playful parenting. But in what universe was this a good idea? I'm truly curious if anybody here can defend this... because I simply cannot imagine for the life of me what this woman was thinking!


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

My dd has been standing, dancing, and climbing on the counter since about 18 months







:.

My dh's initial response was sort of like yours, but he got used to it eventually. She's 2.5 now and climbs up on the countertop by herself, using the drawer handles like climbing holds, then gets her own glassware down to hand to me when I'm cooking. She then walks across the counter to climb up onto the bar, where her seat is affixed. She puts her self into the seat and waits for her food.

She also climbs up on the back of the toilet (not just the seat, the back part too) to reach the cupboard when she wants a bandaid.

I dunno. She's strong and agile and has great balance. She knows how and when to be careful. I guess I've just learned to trust her.


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## zjande (Nov 4, 2002)

That's something that I would do at my own home, but would definitely ask before lifting a kid up on the counter at a friend's house. I think it's one of those things like wearing shoes in the house, jumping on the couch, etc.... you ask the host 1st, because everyone has different rules.


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed*
My dd has been standing, dancing, and climbing on the counter since about 18 months







:.


Yabut -- that's YOUR daughter. Would you feel the same way if another mama (that didn't know your daughter's abilities) just arbitrarily taught her to do something like that?

I think *that's* what's eating me over this whole thing the most.


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## delicious (Jun 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zjande*
That's something that I would do at my own home, but would definitely ask before lifting a kid up on the counter at a friend's house. I think it's one of those things like wearing shoes in the house, jumping on the couch, etc.... you ask the host 1st, because everyone has different rules.

yeah. exactly.


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## Ravin (Mar 19, 2002)

Really, with your DD being the older child, and she felt confident in her DD's abilities, it might not have occured to her that your DD wouldn't also be reasonably safe up there, with an adult in arm's reach in case someone fell. It's no higher than much of the playground equipment one sees in parks these days.

Had she left them on the counter and wandered across the room, that would be different.


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Well, I explained my displeasure to the other mom by telling her that once DD sees or does something, she ALWAYS wants to do it. DD has (obviously) no idea that it's not always appropriate to do it (i.e. now she will think it's cool to climb up on the counter when there is NOT an adult standing there to spot her, or when she is in stocking feet on the slippery granite, etc.).

Plus, I think it's gross (no offense to anybody else who doesn't). DH and I don't put our dirty shoes on surfaces we eat off of, so I'm not about to teach DD that it's cool to do that.


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## Ravin (Mar 19, 2002)

Yeah, well, that's why we have these nifty things called rags and all-purpose cleanser.


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## Calidris (Apr 17, 2004)

bar height is higher than a table right?
To me that would be too high, especially for 2 kids at once, you can't spot 2 at a time, the cleanliness aspect wouldn't bug me, the counter can be wiped down








I certainly wouldn't do it with someone else's child anyway (without checking with the mother first)


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ravin*
Yeah, well, that's why we have these nifty things called rags and all-purpose cleanser.

I'm not worried about cleaning up a mess. The girls spend half the time demolishing the rest of the house and I didn't care about that. Believe me, I am in no way a clean freak.

Frankly, I would never go to your house or to a restaurant and climb up on the table top and start dancing around. That is just plain rude. There is a lot of talk on this forum about treating children with the respect accorded to adults... I personally think this should include encouraging the respect of other people's homes.

If DD said "up, up" and wanted to get up, there were LOTS of playful things the other mama could have done. She could have picked her up and danced with her, or pointed out things that were "up", or any other number of things that would have been appropriate.

Putting two children on the counter top simply was not, IMO.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

I think it's perfectly fine to have whatever house rules work for you and your family.

Kids standing on countertops certainly isn't routine enough for that mom to have assumed it was okay without asking. For instance, despite that fact that dd has free range at our house, I never let her put her feet on a table or counter in a restaurant or at someone else's house, because I realize that other folks are more concerned about that than I am.

But I'm kind of clueless about stuff like that too. Maybe she presumed you were more crunchy based on other factors about you, and was taken by surprise about your countertop rules. Sounds a lot like something I would have inadvertantly done. I'm sure she meant no harm.


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed*
Maybe she presumed you were more *crunchy* based on other factors about you, and was taken by surprise about your countertop rules.

That's a new definition of the word crunchy for me!


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Probably not very accurate, either







.

I tend to equate crunchy parenting with a very liberal, hands-off approach. Encouraging out-of-the-box activities and thought. Like dancing on countertops. But that's sort of an extrapolation.


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## HappyToBe (Jul 31, 2006)

It wouldn't have bothered me at all. As long as she was "spotting" them and they were safe; ie. no cartwheels or slam dancing.


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## muckemom (Jun 26, 2006)

Hmmm... I can see why it was OK for her to do it with her own child, but I would NEVER EVER think that it was OK to do something like that with someone else's child...

That would royally piss me off.


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## HappyToBe (Jul 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat*
Plus it's freaking GROSS to stand on the table, where people eat.

Just curious, is this gross b/c their feet would get dirty with old food or b/c the countertops would have to be cleaned/disinfected? I have to (shhhhhhhhhhh) keep Chlorox wipes b/c our cats refuse to be trained OFF the countertops.


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed*

I tend to equate crunchy parenting with a very liberal, hands-off approach. Encouraging out-of-the-box activities and thought. Like dancing on countertops. But that's sort of an extrapolation.

Which is why I posted about this here, I figured there would be a lot of support for the countertop dancing, actually!









Hey, I'm all in favor of hands-off and out-of-the-box. I try to encourage it at (almost) every turn. I just prefer not to sacrifice safety and consideration for others, both of which I think were involved here. To me, getting caught up in the joy of the moment is really important, but it's not always ONLY about getting caught up. Sometimes the bigger picture needs to be considered, that is all.

But... as always, the MDC mamas show me alternative lines of thought. Which is why I love coming here.


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Sometimes I have a hard time figuring out what other people's house rules might be. Like my ILs don't allow food in the living room, and a friend of mine doesn't let her daughter climb on the sofa. Both of these had me going, internally, "huh? why not?" But I do make an effort not to let my kid do anything that someone else might have a problem with, without at least checking whether they mind. I'm pretty sure countertop dancing would fall into that category for me - though maybe if your friend has a very similar parenting style to yours otherwise, she just assumed you'd be in agreement on this thing too?


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HappyToBe*
Just curious, is this gross b/c their feet would get dirty with old food or b/c the countertops would have to be cleaned/disinfected? I have to (shhhhhhhhhhh) keep Chlorox wipes b/c our cats refuse to be trained OFF the countertops.

Hee hee. Good question.

In the case of the specific -- the little girls' feet probably were not filthy. But in general -- I just do not think it's appropriate to put shoes on the table top.

Maybe that makes me a stick in the mud, I dunno.

But imagine if you were eating at somebody else's house or in a restaurant. You would probably be appalled if you knew that the last thing to sit on that table before your plate was a sneaker that had trod through dog doo on the sidewalk. I don't know about you, but even if I knew there had been copious wiping with Chlorox, I'd still be sorta skeeved out.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat*
Suddenly, I looked up and saw _both toddlers standing up on the island, dancing_. The mom was standing there laughing with them.

I think this is delightful. There is nothing I enjoy more than seeing people enjoying children, and vice versa. To me, that would be worth a dirty countertop or the risk that my child would now want to dance on the countertop all the time.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie*
I think this is delightful. There is nothing I enjoy more than seeing people enjoying children, and vice versa. To me, that would be worth a dirty countertop or the risk that my child would now want to dance on the countertop all the time.









There's that crunchy voice of reason!


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## MelMel (Nov 9, 2002)

nak
i agree with the OP and dont like it. shoes have more than germs, they have lead which can't be disinfected away...but thats maybe looking too much into it (which i do), sand/rocks/gravel get in shoes and can ruin surfaces...and socked feet are very slippery..

i am very hands off also, but not to the extent where peoples things cant be damaged...things are just things but things dont last if they arent taken care of, thus avoiding having to buy more things to replace the now discarded things that were damaged prematurely by doing stuff like this









and i dont think it has foresight....most kitchens are playwood and/or tile and the stuff my kid could climb on in other rooms or outside is different than a kitchen, entryway, or bathroom...and i explain that to them. my kids are also good climbers and steady on their feet, but in moments of stress or fatigue they make poor judgements and slip or fall easier...i have to help them and protect them and teach them when they can let loose and when to show caution.

some may be comfortable with it, and thats cool....but its okay to not be comfortable with it, too. i really dont think this falls into the 'overly uptight' category, either. i am very laid back imo, and it just seems rude. i also dont let my kids jump on someone elses furniture...just as i dont jump on thier furniture, either. my kids like to jump, so i take the cushions off and let them jump on those seperately. my last sofa was cracked (the frame) by my nieces jumping on it, and i had to use a wood splintered/dangerous sofa for a long time because i could not replace it....and then when i could replace it, it was upsetting that this sofa would now be in a landfill when it didnt need to be.

the only people who dance on tables in my family are the adults







:


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie*
I think this is delightful. There is nothing I enjoy more than seeing people enjoying children, and vice versa. To me, that would be worth a dirty countertop or the risk that my child would now want to dance on the countertop all the time.

Well, when my daughter gets up on the slippery granite in her stocking feet behind my back and falls and splits her head open, I don't think that will be very delightful at all.









I'm not begrudging the fun. I'm not sure why nobody here seems to understand this. I just thought that there were a lot of other wiser choices of dance location to be made by the mama at that particular moment.

Perhaps I am just not a very delightful parent when it comes to personal safety or hygiene, and if that's not crunchy I guess I will have to come to grips with that.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MelMel*
the only people who dance on tables in my family are the adults







:

Sober adults or drunk adults?

See, the problem with letting the toddlers dance on the countertop is that they were sober.









Seriously, I wouldn't have minded if somebody else let my child dance on the countertop, but I wouldn't allow another child to do so without checking with his/her parent.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat*
I'm not begrudging the fun. I'm not sure why nobody here seems to understand this. I just thought that there were a lot of other wiser choices of dance location to be made by the mama at that particular moment.

Perhaps I am just not a very delightful parent when it comes to personal safety or hygiene, and if that's not crunchy I guess I will have to come to grips with that.









I think people understand. Multiple posters have offered reassurances that - although that's not how they look at it - there's nothing wrong with the rules that you have in your house.

I think you came here looking for an alternate viewpoint which would explain the motivations of this other mom, and that folks are trying to provide that for you.

And I'm sure that you are a delightful parent. There are lots of ways to have fun







.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat*
Well, when my daughter gets up on the slippery granite in her stocking feet behind my back and falls and splits her head open, I don't think that will be very delightful at all.









I'm not begrudging the fun. I'm not sure why nobody here seems to understand this. I just thought that there were a lot of other wiser choices of dance location to be made by the mama at that particular moment.

Perhaps I am just not a very delightful parent when it comes to personal safety or hygiene, and if that's not crunchy I guess I will have to come to grips with that.

















:














: Guess I am not fun either because dancing on tables and countertops is simply not acceptable to me and would piss me off as well.

Shay


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## Elyra (Aug 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie*
I think this is delightful. There is nothing I enjoy more than seeing people enjoying children, and vice versa. To me, that would be worth a dirty countertop or the risk that my child would now want to dance on the countertop all the time.









Yes, I like the way you said that.

My childern and I do some pretty crazy things at my house including dancing up on the counters. I love to see them so happy, and as long as I am right there I am ok with it. If we had a guest over and my childern were up on the counter I may put that child up there if they wanted, also. I don't know if I would do it when I was a guest at someone's home. I think it would depend on how comforatable I was with the person and their home. I think that there was no harm meant, and probably no harm done. You may just need to explain to your daughter that is was fun one time, but that it is not ok to do again.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

It sounds like a really unthinking moment. I don't think it was a good idea to let children on your kitchen island without asking you #1 because you might not want feet on your island and #2 your dd might not be allowed up there. It sounds like you were right there so it wouldn't have been much effort to ask. Lots of other places to dance and play... like the floor.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

This is something my mom would do and as someone said, it would be a total unthinking moment. And her defense would be "but I'm right here." And honestly, I'd get her down, tell mom I don't want her to think dancing on the counter is fun, and let it go. I think there is a tendency to consider every parenting moment as huge and monumental and really, sometimes things just happen. Make your case and move on. And, you know, never turn your back on that mom again


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat*
You people are great at showing me other points of view. In what universe is the following appropriate parenting behavior?

Yesterday we had a BBQ at our house. DD is 2yo, our friends' daughter is 18mos. The girls had a great time playing together. The four parents took turns keeping an eye on them.

We have an island in the middle of our kitchen, bar height, with a granite countertop. At one point the other mom was sitting in the kitchen with the two little girls, who were sitting on the barstools at the island.

Suddenly, I looked up and saw _both toddlers standing up on the island, dancing_. The mom was standing there laughing with them.

I. Was. Furious.

What the *&$% was this woman thinking, letting them stand up there? She explained that my DD said "up, up!" so obviously, she wanted to get up there.







:

It is dangerous for a toddler to be up there, and the LAST thing I wanted was my daughter learning that it was a FUN place to be. Plus it's freaking GROSS to stand on the table, where people eat. Who in their right mind would go to somebody else's house and stand on the table??

Now, I'm all for playful parenting. But in what universe was this a good idea? I'm truly curious if anybody here can defend this... because I simply cannot imagine for the life of me what this woman was thinking!

I think it's nuts. Not because of the germs, but because one or both could fall and crack their heads on the granite countertop or floor.


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## Mamamazing (Aug 16, 2006)

If you read "The Continuum Concept," Liedloff discusses the parenting practices of an ancient group of indiginous people in S. America.

Among many common AP practices, she noticed that the parents didn't keep their children from doing what we would consider dangerous things (climbing to heights and using sharp tools.)

Apparently, these parents trusted that their children would develop their own fine-tuned sense of danger and self-regulate.

Now, I'm not completely convinced of this myself, but I have seen a trend toward overprotective parenting and I have seen, many many times, what Liedloff observed in Western parenting, that the parents' warnings are oftentimes self-fulfilled prophecies. For example, the parent would tell the kids, "Get off the counter or you'll fall and crack your head," soon thereafter the child loses his balance and falls off the counter, and the parent says something smug like, "See, I told you!" not knowing that they planted into the child, a seed of insecurity.


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## RockStarMom (Sep 11, 2005)

Well said MelMel. I also would have had a problem with this situation. The primary reason would be safety. I'll never forget my best friend's then 8-year-old sister falling head-first off the top of their (parked) car. Climbing onto non-safe high surfaces to play will be a no-no for my daughter, supervised or not. And I also find it unsanitary to have shoes on the kitchen counter.


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## dove (Jun 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamamazing*
If you read "The Continuum Concept," Liedloff discusses the parenting practices of an ancient group of indiginous people in S. America.

Among many common AP practices, she noticed that the parents didn't keep their children from doing what we would consider dangerous things (climbing to heights and using sharp tools.)

Apparently, these parents trusted that their children would develop their own fine-tuned sense of danger and self-regulate.

Now, I'm not completely convinced of this myself, but I have seen a trend toward overprotective parenting and I have seen, many many times, what Liedloff observed in Western parenting, that the parents' warnings are oftentimes self-fulfilled prophecies. For example, the parent would tell the kids, "Get off the counter or you'll fall and crack your head," soon thereafter the child loses his balance and falls off the counter, and the parent says something smug like, "See, I told you!" not knowing that they planted into the child, a seed of insecurity.

good point. I have noticed that when I say "be careful" to ds he ineviteably falls or bangs himself or whatever in the nanoseconds following the "reminder" to be careful. I do something else now when he is involved in something slightly nerve wracking for me to watch and he is very confident and stable.

I agree with some pp's who say it was probably just an unthinking moment. The girls were having fun, delighting in their new activity, mama went with the flow...








oh, well. Sorry that now your dd may want to go on the countertops. I bet she will get over it soon, though, if you want to enforce a no counter rule. I could see saying something to the other mama (if it bothered me, prolly wouldn't), but to be _furious_? No. I certainly would not be furious.


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## momma earthical (May 21, 2006)

no way children get to dance on the counters in my house..........

there are always waaay too many dirty dishes on them!


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## tallulahma (Jun 16, 2006)

nak

if the 2 yo said "up up"
id assume she did it often.

i let my dd crawl up on mostly anything. i have hard tile in every single room in my house. my mom came out from the midwest and FREAKED out. "you need carpeting, thnis poor baby will never crawl on this hard stuff, and she'll crack her head right open". i just laughed.
i think that its very common in this country to be overprotective.
to each their own.
i mightve asked, i might not have.
if the overall vibe of the house was relaxed, i might not have thought twice.


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## mamatoady (Mar 16, 2004)

I always took to the motto: My child's going to climb anyway, so she might as well be good at it. and thus I have let her climb and she is now over the table climbing.

HOWEVER, Climbing is one thing, dancing and jumping, especially with a partner. I don't think that sounds safe that high up. I'd NEVER allow my kid to do that at someone elses house.

sarah


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

It is absolutely something that I'd allow my kids to do...but I let them jump on my bed too. However, I'd never put my child, or someone else's child w/o the parents permission, on someone elses counters. I think that it's bad manners more than anything.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

My children at that age have always been climbers, especially my last three. They would be very good at getting up there by themselves.

I would not have seen anything particularly wrong with it other than it was not our house. We don't allow that at other peoples houses, but, in the spur of the moment, it is possible I would not have thought anything about it. And if my child could do it, I would probably have thought that the other child was ok to do it as well. My boys have started climbing up on top bunk beds at the age of 12 months, and my "climber boy" has been climbing tall trees since he was 2.

It is quite possible it would have been me.







:


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## Getz (May 22, 2005)

This would scare me. Granite is slippery and hard, it is just too dangerous for me.

I think dancing is safer on the floor. And just as fun.


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## RainCoastMama (Oct 13, 2004)

The safety issue would bug me as my DD is not as physical as other kids and can be clumsy. I'd base my anger on how good of a spotter the other mom was. I'd never do anything like that to another child without asking the parents.

The cleanliness thing...bah...as I always say to my DD when she freaks or gets worried if she messes herself with paint, mud, etc. "We're washable. Almost everything's washable." I also thing a little germiness increases the immune system as most of our NA life has been so disinfected and scrubbed and sparkly clean. You're not eating off the countertops, right?


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## AmyY (Jul 22, 2004)

Since I have twins (now 2 yrs 10 mos) and since they love counter tops this has been an ongoing issue. We have settled it as follows: counter top sitting is fine, on the lower (wide) counter. Counter top sitting on the higher (narrow) counter is not OK. Counter top standing means you will be lifted down. That hasn't been taught as a punitive response, so they stand up when they are ready to be lifted down.

I agree with all those who say that spotting two toddlers is - well - let's just say I have more gray hairs than I would have expected for my age









I am also in the camp of those who say that they would not do this with another person's child, FWIW. Especially if the mama is not used to spotting two toddlers all day long and not aware of the different dynamic involved. My mother used to try to do this. No no no. DH or I can handle it. No one else.

We don't do shoes in the house. Yuck. I do wash after feet are on the counter. It doesn't bother me.









Interesting thread.


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## HappyToBe (Jul 31, 2006)

Do you guys use the Learning Tower?







My boys are VERY active in oh so many ways and these are totally safe climbing towers to help them in the kitchen. Or, wherever. I'd say if she wants to dance on the counters again, buy her a LT and she can boogey next to you as you slice carrots.


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## ConfusedPrincess (Jul 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed*
Probably not very accurate, either







.

I tend to equate crunchy parenting with a very liberal, hands-off approach. Encouraging out-of-the-box activities and thought. Like dancing on countertops. But that's sort of an extrapolation.









I thought the same way about what crunchy meant ..and then I come to MDC and I'm like ok this is total extreme in some areas. I think IRL you can be considered the above and crunchy as compared to here.
Also to comment on the counter thingy: When I lived w/ my ma(she has a large, tall kitchen island too-w/ tile floors)and her friend would come over w/ her child all the time and I'd let her walk around the island if that's where we were gathered. The mom didn't have a problem w/ it since I followed the child to make sure if she slipped I could catch her. Ofcourse if she had a problem with it she would let me know but wouldn't freak out at me b/c obviously until she tells me it's not ok i don't know.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

eh- wouldn't bother me in the least, but it's not something we do here. I'm a cc-kinda momma so by 18 months, I'd know my DD wasn't going to walk off the counter top. So mebbe the mama only had to spot the 2 yo since she knew her kid was safe.

Sounds like the sort of relaxed thing I'd do. I put my DD on the counter at the post office then left her standing there when my turn came up at the window. She was fine - wasn't going to walk off it. She called to me when she wanted to get down. But I think it freaked out everyone else at the PO.

As for the germ aspect - well, my kids feet at 18 mos - 2 years were kind of all over me, so it wouldn't bother me that they were on the counter. At that age, I can't imagine her feet were somehow dirtier than any other part of her body like hands or butt, so what's the difference?


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

As a bit of an offshoot: what DO you guys do about baby/toddler butts on counters at food joints?

Realizing that most of you may not frequent fast food, however for the ones who do...









When I've got dd at Micky Ds, Burger King, or whatever local joint with a playplace we're visiting for breakfast, I tend to sit her on the countertop while I pull out my money, pay and gather up the tray. At 2.5 dd's starting to be of the age where she can reliably follow me, but standing at a crowded counter and with her being a pretty spirited child, I often don't feel comfortable leaving her standing next to me unattended while my attention is on other matters. And usually I'm not coordinated enough to hang onto her while digging in my pockets to pay and then trying to hoist the tray of food.

I do keep dd from putting her feet/shoes up on the counter, but of course there's not much to do about the fact that her butt is parked on the edge. No one's ever said anything, but I always feel a little awkward about it.

What do you'all do in these circumstances, or what do you think about mamas doing what I've been doing?


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## Elyra (Aug 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed*
As a bit of an offshoot: what DO you guys do about baby/toddler butts on counters at food joints?

Realizing that most of you may not frequent fast food, however for the ones who do...









When I've got dd at Micky Ds, Burger King, or whatever local joint with a playplace we're visiting for breakfast, I tend to sit her on the countertop while I pull out my money, pay and gather up the tray. At 2.5 dd's starting to be of the age where she can reliably follow me, but standing at a crowded counter and with her being a pretty spirited child, I often don't feel comfortable leaving her standing next to me unattended while my attention is on other matters. And usually I'm not coordinated enough to hang onto her while digging in my pockets to pay and then trying to hoist the tray of food.

I do keep dd from putting her feet/shoes up on the counter, but of course there's not much to do about the fact that her butt is parked on the edge. No one's ever said anything, but I always feel a little awkward about it.

What do you'all do in these circumstances, or what do you think about mamas doing what I've been doing?

My husband and I were asked to remove our son from the counter top at a local fast food place. We travel a great deal and when we do we eat fast food for the convience and to let the children stretch their legs at the play grounds. We have been told it isn't allowed, we have been asked to remove them from the counter, and then most of the time no one cares.


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## SoggyGranolaMomma (Feb 28, 2005)

Ultimately, it doesn't matter how other people measure "crunchiness", if it makes YOU uncomfortable, it's a problem. How BIG of a problem is up to you.

For some reason countertop dancing has never been an issue.

Not that we've had a problem with countertop "hanging out" but it's always just been butts, not feet.

You have to decide what issues are important to YOU and your family and worry about that, not what other people think.

I know it's easy to say sometimes when there are so many perfect parents here on MDC, eager to tell you are doing it "wrong" but eventually you will figure out and trust your own instincts.

While there are certain ways in which AP parents are "common", each aspect of the basics has so many variations that there will be quite a difference in how I parent vs how you parent.

Though we might have similar views, I can't parent my kids the way you parent yours and vice versa.

If the mom isn't someone who has a daily impact on your life I wouldn't give a hoot if she thought you were the world's craziest momma.


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NiteNicole*
And, you know, never turn your back on that mom again



















In talking about it afterwards with DH, that's exactly what we said.

And, as several have said, it probably *was* simply an unthinking moment. But (and feel free to accuse me of being the worst kind of overprotective helicopter mom on earth) it just didn't feel safe to me.

I guess I'm simply of the "just because the child wants to do it doesn't mean it's a good idea 100% of the time" school of thought. Two year olds are not the world's best decision makers, after all. But being unthinking when you are watching *my* child does make me furious. I'm still a little pissed about it now.

The grody germ part is just an added bonus to add fuel to the fire.









Thanks for all the interesting POVs, mamas!


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## srain (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat*
Well, when my daughter gets up on the slippery granite in her stocking feet behind my back and falls and splits her head open, I don't think that will be very delightful at all.









Have you found unsafe behavior to be a problem with your daughter in the past? If so, I might not trust her to be unsupervised in areas where she can climb on stuff.

My daughter is 20 months old, and she understands there are some things she can only do with adult supervision, and she understands there are some things she can do at our house but not others'. All kids are different, and the mom in question may have (incorrectly?) assumed your daughter was at that point. I do think it was rude of her to let kids climb on furniture without knowing it's permitted, but I consider that more of a minor rudeness/ lapse in judgment than something I'd be furious about.


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## Profmom (Feb 13, 2002)

A question for those who would allow/support/smile at/etc. the countertop excursion: at what point (size? age?), if any, would you find a person standing/dancing on your countertop to be rude? We had a friend's son over for dinner (age 10) and jumped up on our counter and started to act like a fashion model on a runway. I was shocked and thought it was very rude. Would you also find that delightful? The question is truly a sincere one, not sarcastic. When does 'cute' become 'rude'? Will the child teach him or herself what is appropriate? This is something about AP that I am struggling with.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

I tend to make clear distinctions about what is ok at our house, and what is ok at other peoples houses. My counter usually has too much stuff on it for dancing, but in theory I am not opposed to two toddlers dancing on the countertop. I am a VERY good spotter, with lightening fast reflexes, thanks to raising danger baby. [ Dd was not one of the magical CC babies who instinctively knew danger - she was bolder and carefree. I have made it a point not to squash her boldness, while keeping her alive long enough to figure out her limits.]

I would not allow it at someone elses house, without clear permission from both the homeowner and the childs parents. I did allow my dd and a 6 yr old relative to dance on the concrete tables at a park the other day.









I think it was rude of the other mother, but not crazy Chinakat. We all have different rules and expectations, and I think it is socially appropriate to respect a persons expectations at her own home.

Have you been able to talk to the other mother? A straightforward and gentle conversation might help you find some peace with what happened.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

my kids have been standing on things and jumping of things from the tiem they can stand. so long as the mama was right there I don't see that it was all so dangerous. and if her dd was older and she felt comfortable why wouldn't she feel comfortable with your dds abilities.

however it does kinda count as a peice of funiture and I would never assume it was appropriate for my child to stand on furniture at someone elses house without permission.

But I can see how the whole thing never ever crossed her mind as anything wrong with it. just a fun little diversion. but then again my oldest had figured out how to get on the counter tops before she figured out how to walk . . .that sort of thing, with adult supervision just doesn't scare me in teh slightest.


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## teachma (Dec 20, 2002)

Well chinaKat, I'm with you on this one. But I have been affectionately (or not so...) known by my family to be somewhat of a stick in the mud.







I expect my children to behave in our home in ways that would generally be considered appropriate in most of the homes they/we visit. So, feet off the table (certainly, whole bodies off the table), sitting but not climbing on couches, no shoes on the bed...I want my children to know that the bvehaviors they exhibit would be accepted by most of their friends' moms should they attend a playdate without me. I feel it's my responsibility to prepare them for the world of which they are citizens. I would feel negligent if I led them to believe it was okay to do things that many of the people I know would not permit in their homes. There have been children in my home, climbing on our sofas with their muddy shoes on their feet, and they look legitimately _bewildered_ when I ask them to please stop. Like nobody ever indicated to them this might not be a good idea. I don't want my children to be in that position as visitors in someone else's house. Maybe this seems strict or serious, but it's pretty much how I feel.


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## Daphnes_mama (Sep 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teachma*
Well chinaKat, I'm with you on this one. But I have been affectionately (or not so...) known by my family to be somewhat of a stick in the mud.







I expect my children to behave in our home in ways that would generally be considered appropriate in most of the homes they/we visit. So, feet off the table (certainly, whole bodies off the table), sitting but not climbing on couches, no shoes on the bed...I want my children to know that the bvehaviors they exhibit would be accepted by most of their friends' moms should they attend a playdate without me. I feel it's my responsibility to prepare them for the world of which they are citizens. I would feel negligent if I led them to believe it was okay to do things that many of the people I know would not permit in their homes. There have been children in my home, climbing on our sofas with their muddy shoes on their feet, and they look legitimately _bewildered_ when I ask them to please stop. Like nobody ever indicated to them this might not be a good idea. I don't want my children to be in that position as visitors in someone else's house. Maybe this seems strict or serious, but it's pretty much how I feel.

Thank you, thank you! You articulated my exact thought. I agree with you and Chinakat wholeheartedly. I am my child's PARENT first and foremost. That means it is my job to teach her good manners and how to behave in someone's home! Maybe that means that I am strict or whatever, but oh well. There is no climbing sofas or eating in the living room at my house, except maybe if we have a party. I certainly don't subscribe to the "whatever the child wants to do is fine" school of thought. I don't give a hoot if that makes me "un-crunchy" or whatever. The fact is children need boundaries and it is our job to teach them what those boundaries are.

Am I the only one who has never heard of children dancing on countertops? Seriously, this is a new one to me. I agree with the OP that I think it is dangerous and unsanitary. My child wouldn't even think to do this, as it is most certainly not acceptable in our home (which, by the way is a fun place to be). Plus, there really isn't room on our counters.


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## Jillie (May 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daphnes_mama*
Thank you, thank you! You articulated my exact thought. I agree with you and Chinakat wholeheartedly. I am my child's PARENT first and foremost. That means it is my job to teach her good manners and how to behave in someone's home! Maybe that means that I am strict or whatever, but oh well. There is no climbing sofas or eating in the living room at my house, except maybe if we have a party. I certainly don't subscribe to the "whatever the child wants to do is fine" school of thought. I don't give a hoot if that makes me "un-crunchy" or whatever. The fact is children need boundaries and it is our job to teach them what those boundaries are.

Am I the only one who has never heard of children dancing on countertops? Seriously, this is a new one to me. I agree with the OP that I think it is dangerous and unsanitary. My child wouldn't even think to do this, as it is most certainly not acceptable in our home (which, by the way is a fun place to be). Plus, there really isn't room on our counters.

















: I wouldn't like it either op, and its also a manners thing for me too. We climb on the couch, jump on the bed, and other things that would horrify my mil, but standing on the counters is reserved for getting something out of the cabinets.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I wouldn't be to bothered with one child. My kids at that age did that and my grandmother did it with us but that was one child at a time. We would sit on the counter and help do dishes at a year. My grandmother apparently did this with all of her kids. My mom said it use to drive her crazy but my grandmother never once had a child get hurt.

But I wouldn't have done it at some other home....


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## lurable (Jul 23, 2006)

I would have no problem with it. I don't know if I'm missing something and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but the woman had to lift the kids up in order for them to get on the counter, so if you move the stools away from the counter I don't see how your dd could climb up unsupervised. I have no problem with children exploring things when supervised, my dd wanted to stand on the table so I let her. She quickly became bored of it and has never done it again. I have a feeling if I had kept saying no and taken her down it would have turned into "let's do this again and again cause it's the best game EVER!" KWIM?
I don't see though how this example can be equated to children getting mud on furniture--nothing was getting ruined here or broken or abused. At least nothing a cloth can't handle







2 tiny tots were rockin out on a counter, I don't think there is an "across the board" answer for this one, as I certainly don't let my kids (all 64 of them as I am a WAH music teacher) jump on my couch with shoes. But I don't want my kids to feel like visitors in my home, I want them to be comfortable and free to exploire without me constantly saying "No, don't do this or that".
If danger is the worry, take away the chairs and stools from the counter when you are not around to supervise. If your kids can still get up, they are old enough to balance and fend for themselves







Lot's of things are dangerous, but if my dd get's a kick out of/wants to learn about or explore something, I don't mind being right there to supervise and teach her about it....or just watch as she has a blast


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

This seems like such a small, insignificant issue in the much bigger picture of life. Sorry, I don't mean that to sound rude, but if counter dancing is the worst thing that happened I would say it was a good day! Really, its not like she was wielding a knife or leaning precariously out a 2nd story window







If it really bothered me I would just re-direct her in the future and keep a closer eye on things when the other mom is supervising.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I haven't read the replies but I would let my kid do that. Maybe not someone else's kid, and maybe not at someone else's house, but if I was right there to make sure they didn't fall it would be fine with me. If I were the other mom I would have asked you first, but I am hyper paranoid about being in charge of someone else's kid. But my kid being on the countertop wouldn't bother me.

We do a lot of things at home that we don't do at anyone else's house, and my kids have never had a problem with that distinction.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Peace.


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## WinterBaby (Oct 24, 2002)

While I might be in the table dancing group, I can totally see where you're coming from, your sense of it as inappropriate and rude. That's totally fair and reasonable. Everyone has different rules and standards we ought to try to respect in their house. Maybe the other mom was mistaken about the relaxedness of your standards. But your reaction to something that in the scheme of things seems entirely minor and forgettable to me (no harm done, right?) blows me away. Furious, still pissed off, never wanting to turn your back on this (insert appropriate unpleasant adjective) mom ever again. I mean, wow. In complete honesty, I'd be fearful and intimidated of being your friend. Seriously. I mean, what if, god forbid, I screw up?







I'd hope for a large measure of patience, understanding, and good humor from the friend I'd inadvertantly offended with my play.


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## 2much2luv (Jan 12, 2003)

I'm sure the mom in the OP thought it would be okay because that's a norm at their house, so I hope you (the OP) don't hold it against her forever.







:


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## Chinese Pistache (May 29, 2006)

I often put my toddler (under 2) up there, supervised, when we're all standing around talking in the kitchen. I wouldn't do it with someone else's child or in someone else's kitchen though. And I wouldn't try to spot 2 different children at once.

Everyone's got different rules and standards, so I'd just let it go. I'd also *not* extrapolate that she's completely rude, unsanitary and irresponsible in all other aspects of parenting (not that I think you are). Besides occasionally counter-standing, we do NOT allow food in the living room nor climbing and jumping on the couches. For that matter, we don't allow kids over 2 to walk on the countertops!

Here's my own "mortified" story. A friend was over and asked to put her 18 mth old to sleep in my bed. The kids had just eaten and her baby had peanut butter *all* over his face. I assumed, OF COURSE, that she would clean the baby up before putting him in my bed. But, nope! She pulled back the covers and put that peanut-buttery baby right on my clean white sheets! I'm still shaking my head over that one, but I chalk it up to general sleep-deprivation-induced thoughtlessness


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HappyToBe*







It wouldn't have bothered me at all. As long as she was "spotting" them and they were safe; ie. no cartwheels or slam dancing.

that's my response as well. sorry you were bugged.


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## stellimamo (Jan 9, 2006)

I'm with the Op with this one. It sounds dangerous. Granit can be slippery and is extremely hard. Its hard to manage one child let alone two on top of a island bar. And then there is the fact that counter tops aren't made for dancing. Floors are made for feet and counters are not.

And the fact that she put you child up there w/o asking if it was ok and just "took your dd's word" for it is not cool. Just because you dd said "up, up" doesn't mean you allow her to do it. My dd will try to talk you into giving her all sorts of things because she wants them not because there was some sort of precedent set.


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## mimim (Nov 2, 2003)

When my DD climbs up on the table or counter I take her down and tell her it's not safe. She does it ALL the time when I'm not looking.

If I was in a similar situation to the OP, I'd just say, "oh, we don't stand on the counter here." and take the kids down and let that be it.

I'd ask before letting kids up on a table or counter at someone else's home.

I don't see how getting upset or angry about this is helpful in anyway. Relax!


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

WRT to my deep rooted anger about the incident...









I'm just venting here. Because I was *scared* for my DD. Both for that moment and for all the future moments -- now that she knows how much fun it is up there, she is way more likely to try to go there, probably when my back is turned.

My friend (who is not afraid of me btw) and I 'made up' after the incident -- in fact, by the end of the evening I think everybody had forgotten about it. She's already emailed me to set up another play date.

The retelling of the tale got me kinda worked up about it again, but I don't think I need therapy or anything. It's just the protective mama bear coming out in me.

And please, I've seen people get WAY more worked up about *much* less scary stuff here, you just have to say a "mainstream parent" looked at your kid/sling/breast/cloth diaper/tofu/whatever funny and it's six pages of venting.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Sorry haven't read any of the replies**

Eh, I wouldn't have gotten worked up about it. I would've figured if the mommy didn't like it she could put a stop to it. I guess I don't see the big deal but it's not my house.







I don't think the kids were in danger if the mother was standing right there. Heck, I let my DS jump when he's in the bathtub (holding my hand) and that seems more dangerous.


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## bobica (May 31, 2004)

er, i would've been grossed out & freaked too. i get that it's fun, and out of the box, but teaching another person's child something like dancing on the counter is inappropriate. now your dd has a new "skill" that you may not have wanted her to have and/or goes against your family's code.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Hi chinakat -

I am a little loosey goosey in this regard too. Although I was suprised that it was at someone else's house (not her own). But I could totally see myself doing this -- especially if I was right there and felt like I had the girls under control as far as should they stumble or slip or something.

Sorry. It probably seems odd - and not totally safe. But definitely not outrageous or anything to me?


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## naturegirl7 (Jan 27, 2005)

I am all for having fun - Heck, I have taught DS to jump on the bed and to have water fights in the house. I think dirt is just another one of the food groups.

But safety has to take priority for me.

There is no way that she could have been "spotting" both of those children at once. It just isn't humanly possible. At any point, one child could have bumped into the other since they were dancing so energetically as all toddlers do - or one could have slipped. ANd if that happened, she easily could have sent the other one flying - in a different direction. How is that mama going to grab and save both? Just won't work - someone is going to get very hurt.

PLUS Teaching kids that young to climb onto counters - or a bar height tabletop - is dangerous. It is like not bothering to use a babygate at the top and bottom of stairs! Climbing on counter means access to cabinets and all the contents of those cabinets - like medicine or glass that can break and cut them.

MY SIL thoguht it was cute that my neices climbed - until one climbed up, opened a cabinet, and used a wooden spoon off the counter to knock down her super yummy vitamins off the tippy top shelf (that SIL thoguht she would NEVER be able to reach) - which she ate the whole bottle of. Not so cute when your kid is ODing on vitamins. Atleast it was only vitamins.

I have a 14mo son who I am trying to teach about climbing. Sure climbing is fun - but it must happen safely! I teach him NOT to climb up onto the tiolet, not to climb onto his babypotty to hoist himself into the tub, not to climb up the entertainment center, not to climb up the rungs of the chairs and tables. But I also teach him that it is okay to climb up the stairs (since he can ONLY get near them if we allow it). We pile couch cushions and pillows all over the living room to make "mountains" for him to climb. I have taught him how to get on and off the bed and couch - feet first of course. We climb stuff outside and at the playground together. We provide him with SAFE and APPROPRIATE climbing.

I totally agree with the OP on the safety aspect of this - and I would have FREAKED out. It was VERy irresponsible to put children up there, plus doing it with someone else's child, in someone else's home. Atleast have the decency to ask permission before you put my child's safety at risk!


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *naturegirl7*
There is no way that she could have been "spotting" both of those children at once. It just isn't humanly possible. At any point, one child could have bumped into the other since they were dancing so energetically as all toddlers do - or one could have slipped. ANd if that happened, she easily could have sent the other one flying - in a different direction. How is that mama going to grab and save both? Just won't work - someone is going to get very hurt.

You've never seen me in action!


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## HappyToBe (Jul 31, 2006)

Mothers are amazing


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *naturegirl7*
It is like not bothering to use a babygate at the top and bottom of stairs!

*ahem*







:








Actually we did use a baby gate at first. But then we visited some friends with several small kids, including a one year old. That baby slid up and down the stairs on her belly or her bum with no trouble at all. The mama told me how she felt much safer teaching her child to _safely negotiate_ the stairs than trusting that the babygate would always be working, not left accidently open, etc.

We immediately went home and started teaching dd to crawl up and down the stairs, even though she was just starting to learn to walk. The babygates came down a couple weeks later, sometime around 14 months I'd guess.

She's never fallen or slipped even a single time on the stairs, even though she independently goes up and down many, many times per day. And I have to admit, once I saw how very careful she was being, I felt much better about her safety. I was always terrifed that the gate wouldn't latch and she'd fall right through it one day.


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## Attila the Honey (Mar 15, 2003)

We do that kind of stuff here.









I don't think I'd do it at someone else's house but I don't freak at the thought of a kid standing on a counter. I'd probably laugh if I saw dd and a friend dancing on a counter (sounds cute!) and as long as the other mama was there to keep them from falling off I wouldn't be too worried.

I wouldn't worry about dd seeing it once and wanting to do it all the time, personally. My dd is 2.5 and she understands if I say to her, "Don't do this without mama here to help you".

I am not saying you were wrong to be bugged, but no, it wouldn't bother me personally. I am not sure how to 'defend' it though, because I guess I don't see very much wrong with it.


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teachma*
I expect my children to behave in our home in ways that would generally be considered appropriate in most of the homes they/we visit. So, feet off the table (certainly, whole bodies off the table), sitting but not climbing on couches, no shoes on the bed...I want my children to know that the bvehaviors they exhibit would be accepted by most of their friends' moms should they attend a playdate without me. I feel it's my responsibility to prepare them for the world of which they are citizens. I would feel negligent if I led them to believe it was okay to do things that many of the people I know would not permit in their homes.

Exactly...we have had children in our home who have no idea it is not acceptable to climb all over the furniture, for example...I don't even mean just little kids, I mean like 7-8 year olds. Their parents don't say a thing to them about it at home and they are _baffled_ when I ask them not to do it at our house. Honestly their parents can afford to replace furniture that gets all messed up. I personally don't want to spend our family's hard-earned money on replacing things that have been abused.

I think I am especially concerned on this topic because I was a kid who was rarely given any guidance on appropriate behavior, and I frequently got in trouble at friends' houses for doing things I had no idea weren't okay. I don't want my child to be put in the position of being embarrassed or shamed or sent home because another parent is so appalled by their behavior.


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## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *naturegirl7*
It is like not bothering to use a babygate at the top and bottom of stairs!









: No gates here either. James does very very well climbing up and down stairs, I have total faith in his ability. He's never let me down.









Re the counter, if it's your rule than it's your rule. Lots of people have rules I think are odd. But they are welcome to them. I wouldn't ever do something so different with other peoples children because I don't know their rules.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Peace.


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## mommycakes (Sep 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat*
I just prefer not to sacrifice safety and consideration for others, both of which I think were involved here. To me, getting caught up in the joy of the moment is really important, but it's not always ONLY about getting caught up. Sometimes the bigger picture needs to be considered, that is all.









Totally.

I wouldn't allow the 'ol counter dancing at my house and if the urge ever struck me at someone else's house (and the floor was--what? unavailable?), I'd surely ask first.

This is what gets me though...would it be ok for an adult to get up on the counter (esp. at someone else's house) to dance? Probably not, so why is that o.k. for a wee one? I personally wouldn't allow something like that because I think it's 1.) extremely inconsiderate and 2.) kinda gross and dangerous. I wouldn't do it at someone else's house and you can bet I wouldn't allow it at mine.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommycakes*







Totally.

This is what gets me though...would it be ok for an adult to get up on the counter (esp. at someone else's house) to dance? Probably not, so why is that o.k. for a wee one?

It wouldn't be OK for an adult to insist on taking off all their clothes (and diaper) and play in the backyard naked until dinner - and eat dinner naked too! But that is what my 19 month old DD did last Sunday. And rather than fight her - I let it go - and it was so much fun to see how much fun she was having. Honestly - that is the magic of childhood to me - playing naked in the backyard, dancing on the counter . . . I say go for it as long as you can and before you become hindered by inhibitions . . . .


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## mommycakes (Sep 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TripMom*
It wouldn't be OK for an adult to insist on taking off all their clothes (and diaper) and play in the backyard naked until dinner - and eat dinner naked too! But that is what my 19 month old DD did last Sunday. And rather than fight her - I let it go - and it was so much fun to see how much fun she was having. Honestly - that is the magic of childhood to me - playing naked in the backyard, dancing on the counter . . . I say go for it as long as you can and before you become hindered by inhibitions . . . .

No arguements here but...that's at YOUR house. My dd is always naked too, inside and out. We have a ton of free play and spontinaity here. However, I feel that this had entirely to do with being considerate of others. It's a rule thing with me. In my mind, it would be inappropriate to climb up on someone elses counter and dance just because it looked like fun. I think it's important to teach impulse control too. Lots of things seem fun, not everything is appropriate or considerate. I expect my dd to think of others and their property, not just what seems fun in the moment. Being relaxed and letting kids enjoy their childhood it important--we do a lot of that here, but I also know that kids do really well with boundaries and this would be unacceptable in my house. I can't say I'd get mad if it happened in this context, I'd probably say something like, "Oh, we don't do that here" and move the dance party to the floor where everyone (including me) could enjoy the moment.

Cheers.


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## MercolaForum (Aug 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat*
You people are great at showing me other points of view. In what universe is the following appropriate parenting behavior?

Yesterday we had a BBQ at our house. DD is 2yo, our friends' daughter is 18mos. The girls had a great time playing together. The four parents took turns keeping an eye on them.

We have an island in the middle of our kitchen, bar height, with a granite countertop. At one point the other mom was sitting in the kitchen with the two little girls, who were sitting on the barstools at the island.

Suddenly, I looked up and saw _both toddlers standing up on the island, dancing_. The mom was standing there laughing with them.

I. Was. Furious.

What the *&$% was this woman thinking, letting them stand up there? She explained that my DD said "up, up!" so obviously, she wanted to get up there.







:

It is dangerous for a toddler to be up there, and the LAST thing I wanted was my daughter learning that it was a FUN place to be. Plus it's freaking GROSS to stand on the table, where people eat. Who in their right mind would go to somebody else's house and stand on the table??

Now, I'm all for playful parenting. But in what universe was this a good idea? I'm truly curious if anybody here can defend this... because I simply cannot imagine for the life of me what this woman was thinking!


I would say NO! Kids can choke easily and at young ages generally aren't really that adapt at survival. Especially with the modern day kitchens and bathrooms, we have with hard tile counters, sharp edges and tile floors, its not simply like falling onto dirt or grass ... thats serious trouble. I would have immediately spoken up and removed both children from the table. Dont let someone else's ignorance be responsible for a disaster waiting to happen.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat*
once DD sees or does something, she ALWAYS wants to do it. DD has (obviously) no idea that it's not always appropriate to do it (i.e. now she will think it's cool to climb up on the counter when there is NOT an adult standing there to spot her, or when she is in stocking feet on the slippery granite, etc.).

I did not have the time to read the responses you already had Chinakat, so maybe the point I am about to make was already adressed. See, many many times I am exactly like you - worrying about what will happen tomorrow instead of enjoying the present moment. Recently, I have been trying to just concentrate on NOW.
If you go back to that moment in your head, I beleive you will agree your dd was safe and happy. It would be so good if we were able to just enjoy that happiness! You know without thinking: the counter will become filthy, well, if so, you'll clean it later, my dd will learn it is OK to climb up there, well, again, if so, later on you'll tell her she can only do it when there is an adult there (and BTW toddlers imagine the wildest things, even when noone has shown them to them before). See what I mean? I am not justifying the other mom, I don't think I would do such a thing at a guest's house. And I am not criticizing you either. We are all wired to do that. It is just to say, perhaps the next time, just watch and enjoy your dd having fun...


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## ozzyemm (Apr 15, 2005)

I haven't read all the responses, so sorry if I repeat:

You said that your daughter said, "Up, up." maybe the mama thought this was something you guys have done before? I might assume that this was routinely done, if the child of the house seemed confident. Now, this mama probably misunderstood what you DD was trying to communicate or whatever, but could it have been a misunderstanding?


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## midstreammama (Feb 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamamazing*
If you read "The Continuum Concept," Liedloff discusses the parenting practices of an ancient group of indiginous people in S. America.

Among many common AP practices, she noticed that the parents didn't keep their children from doing what we would consider dangerous things (climbing to heights and using sharp tools.)

Apparently, these parents trusted that their children would develop their own fine-tuned sense of danger and self-regulate.

Now, I'm not completely convinced of this myself, but I have seen a trend toward overprotective parenting and I have seen, many many times, what Liedloff observed in Western parenting, that the parents' warnings are oftentimes self-fulfilled prophecies. For example, the parent would tell the kids, "Get off the counter or you'll fall and crack your head," soon thereafter the child loses his balance and falls off the counter, and the parent says something smug like, "See, I told you!" not knowing that they planted into the child, a seed of insecurity.

You said that so much better than I could have! Thank you!


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## midstreammama (Feb 8, 2005)

My 7yo dd regularly gets on the counter. Sometimes she sits and sometimes stands. If she had a friend over and they were both sitting which progressed to standing, I wouldn't worry about it. Most of the parents I know would FREAK if their child did something like that though. I think 7yo is not that much different in size(well, maybe a little) than a 10yo so no it wouldn't bother me.
I think by the time they were 12 or 13 they would not find it as amusing to be on the counter so the behavior would probably naturally slow very much. But,no, I wouldn't see a problem with it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Profmom*
A question for those who would allow/support/smile at/etc. the countertop excursion: at what point (size? age?), if any, would you find a person standing/dancing on your countertop to be rude? We had a friend's son over for dinner (age 10) and jumped up on our counter and started to act like a fashion model on a runway. I was shocked and thought it was very rude. Would you also find that delightful? The question is truly a sincere one, not sarcastic. When does 'cute' become 'rude'? Will the child teach him or herself what is appropriate? This is something about AP that I am struggling with.

Teachmas pp~ I think that my kids would know how to act at someone elses house. While my dds may climb on the counter at home, jump on the bed, dance on the table, throw water, etc. I am confident that my 7yo knows that this is absolutely NOT ACCEPTABLE at someones house where we are a guest. We have talked about how some of the things we do at home may not be acceptable at a friends house. Also, we talked about our reasoning behind having so much fun at home....dds have to act very well outside of the house(which they usually never let me down) the home is a place where they are supposed to be able to 'let their hair down', relaz and have fun or whatever. They know the distinction between home and out. The 3.5yo is pretty good with this also. we've never had a problem anywhere.

We have never used baby gates, we are of the camp that it's better to teach them how to climb than try to prevent it. We have stairs and I think dd2&3 could navigate them before they could walk. To me this is more important that having a baby gate up there 'protecting' them. Some of the moms that we hang out with are pretty suprised with just how much my 20mo can do at the playground. I let her go and figure things out on her own(with me close by at least by close I mean 15ft or so talking to other moms) I don't ever want to instill that insecurity that she can't do it, even if it is unspoken(can you tell, i read continuum concept too?) If she gets to a personal boundry I have seen her back up and come back down or what have you. Has she fallen? of course nothing major requiring hospital visits or anything like that..but that doesn't mean i'm going to hover next time and it certainly doesn't mean that she will give up as most 20mos have unending determination... I have gotten compliments that I am so laid back and other moms would be a basket case with my dd climbing the way she is...I just think that if she learns how to do it she will be better off for it...rather than me chaisng her around with my hands out saying 'be careful' every 2 minutes and trying to guide her to other toys whicle I know they ones that she is trying to get at and will unboubtedly get there whether I want her too or not.

Hey, How did this turn in to a book?


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

:

How interesting. Posters here never cease to amaze me.

I'm taking notes for my future adventures in parenthood, and I've learned to never be shocked at what I read here.

Chinakat: For the record, you are not alone.

I wouldn't be "furious" at the mother, I would be really puzzled by her reaction and never turn my back on her again when she was with my child.

I would, however, be "furious" if my child had slipped and been hurt, and I would wonder about her own kids, but never say anything about it... her kids, her choices.

I think it's insane to let children dance on a countertop... DANGEROUS and inappropriate are the first two things that come to mind.

Again, the mothering boards are always entertaining and sometimes educational, I really like it here.


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## KirstenMary (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shayinme*







:














: Guess I am not fun either because dancing on tables and countertops is simply not acceptable to me and would piss me off as well.

Shay

pak

not to mention highly disrespectful of the homeowner.


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## KirstenMary (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stellimamo*
I'm with the Op with this one. It sounds dangerous. Granit can be slippery and is extremely hard. Its hard to manage one child let alone two on top of a island bar. And then there is the fact that counter tops aren't made for dancing. Floors are made for feet and counters are not.

And the fact that she put you child up there w/o asking if it was ok and just "took your dd's word" for it is not cool. *Just because you dd said "up, up" doesn't mean you allow her to do it.* My dd will try to talk you into giving her all sorts of things because she wants them not because there was some sort of precedent set.

ita!!!!


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## KirstenMary (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gaialice*
I did not have the time to read the responses you already had Chinakat, so maybe the point I am about to make was already adressed. See, many many times I am exactly like you - worrying about what will happen tomorrow instead of enjoying the present moment. Recently, I have been trying to just concentrate on NOW.
If you go back to that moment in your head, I beleive you will agree your dd was safe and happy. It would be so good if we were able to just enjoy that happiness! You know without thinking: the counter will become filthy, well, if so, you'll clean it later, my dd will learn it is OK to climb up there, well, again, if so, later on you'll tell her she can only do it when there is an adult there (and BTW toddlers imagine the wildest things, even when noone has shown them to them before). See what I mean? I am not justifying the other mom, I don't think I would do such a thing at a guest's house. And I am not criticizing you either. We are all wired to do that. It is just to say, perhaps the next time, just watch and enjoy your dd having fun...

My daughter would also have fun eating a pound of chocolate, but that doesn't mean I am going to revel in the moment and let her do it. Some actions have potentially negative consequences, and we should be, first and foremost, our children's _parents_. Not their friends.


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## midstreammama (Feb 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KirstenMary*
My daughter would also have fun eating a pound of chocolate, but that doesn't mean I am going to revel in the moment and let her do it.

Just playing devils advocate here but, why not? There are lots of parents here that believe that restricting childrens food choices/intake sets them up for disaster. Your child would stop eating if she got full ot started to feel sick...i bet she would think about it before doing it next time..not being snarky...just curious







it's all about her listening to her body. If her body wants a pound of chocolate shouldn't she have it?(my body would really like a pound of very good dark chocolate right now...anyone have any?)







Alo, its not like she would do it everyday...just something to think about


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## WinterBaby (Oct 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KirstenMary*
My daughter would also have fun eating a pound of chocolate, but that doesn't mean I am going to revel in the moment and let her do it. Some actions have potentially negative consequences, and we should be, first and foremost, our children's _parents_. Not their friends.

Weirdly enough, my husband got my daughter a 1lb bar of chocolate for christmas. I let her eat as much as she wanted, which she did until she got a terrible stomach ache and felt very sick. Now whenever she recieves something like a candy bar I only have to ask her if she remembers how too much makes us feel sick and how much she might like to save for later, and she eats only a small piece and wraps the rest back up, LOL. One of the more productive stupid parenting things I've done, honestly. She lives and learns like the rest of us, and experiencing consquences, barring those that are life threatening, might mean more than being told of them, I guess.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

beside eating t learn limits, why not indulge every now and then? I don't know that my kids would ever come close to eating a whole pound of chocolate at once, but if they want to indulge in something that is a treat but not nessecarily benificial to them why stop them. I am not talking every day but gees, life is too short to never indulge in something stupid, risky, unhealthy, just plain fun.







: I just don't have a problem with bending the rules every now and then in the name of having a blast.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

i would say to each his/her own.

my ex and i have different parenting philosophies. when we were together we did things differently. my dd LOVED stairs. and she didnt like me being close to her. she didnt like me being anything less than 5 steps below or above her. this is a 9 month baby we are talking about. she to date has NEVER had an accident on the stairs with me. NOT one time. and we spent HOURS on the stairs.

her dad was just a stair behind. i am sure that was too close to her and she kept having accidents.

i have seen how other children react with both parents too. a friend of mine who totally overprotected her son - two inches away from him when he was 2 (v. well coordinated) - he would alwasys fall down or slip when he was with her. his dad was way more laid back and would be sitting on the bench and the same child would be running around with no accidents.

which is why to each his own. we all have our own style of parenting. doesnt matter right or wrong. that's jsut the way you are. its important to find our comfort level. if you are so able to it would be nice to experiment how you feel to be in the other shoes. soemtime you learn from it - sometimes its too uncomfortable for you.

BUT... i will say though i see my ex so tense around my dd that once in a while i wish he would relax so he could really enjoy the moment. yet i realise he IS enjoying her on his terms.


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## granolamom (Sep 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FreeRangeMama*







This seems like such a small, insignificant issue in the much bigger picture of life. Sorry, I don't mean that to sound rude, but if counter dancing is the worst thing that happened I would say it was a good day! Really, its not like she was wielding a knife or leaning precariously out a 2nd story window







If it really bothered me I would just re-direct her in the future and keep a closer eye on things when the other mom is supervising.

My thoughts too!!!!!!


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## KirstenMary (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WinterBaby*
Weirdly enough, my husband got my daughter a 1lb bar of chocolate for christmas. I let her eat as much as she wanted, which she did until she got a terrible stomach ache and felt very sick. Now whenever she recieves something like a candy bar I only have to ask her if she remembers how too much makes us feel sick and how much she might like to save for later, and she eats only a small piece and wraps the rest back up, LOL. One of the more productive stupid parenting things I've done, honestly. She lives and learns like the rest of us, and experiencing consquences, barring those that are life threatening, might mean more than being told of them, I guess.

I am going to respond to both your post as well as the post above yours.

I feel that as my children's parent, it's my job to protect them from things that can potentially cause them harm. Like table dancing. Like eating too much candy. Like doing so many other things that they would just love to do if, in my opinion, I stepped back and stopped being their parent.

I have no desire to let my daughter become sick from eating too much candy, and I have no desire to let her learn her own lesson by her falling off the counter...so that the next time she wants to counter dance, the only thing I have to do is ask her if she remembers how much it hurt when she fell off the counter the last time she was up there.

I am all for lessons. But they have their proper places and times, and to me, these examples don't fall into that category.


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## KirstenMary (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka*
beside eating t learn limits, *why not indulge every now and then*? I don't know that my kids would ever come close to eating a whole pound of chocolate at once, but if they want to indulge in something that is a treat but not nessecarily benificial to them why stop them. I am not talking every day but gees, life is too short to never indulge in something stupid, risky, unhealthy, just plain fun.







: I just don't have a problem with bending the rules every now and then in the name of having a blast.

We _do_ indulge. But not on things that will worsen Jordan's already weak teeth.

"Mommy, can I have more chocolate?"

"Now, Jordan, remember the last time you had to have your teeth pulled?"

Not.gonna.happen.


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *midstreammama*
Just playing devils advocate here but, why not? There are lots of parents here that believe that restricting childrens food choices/intake sets them up for disaster. Your child would stop eating if she got full ot started to feel sick...i bet she would think about it before doing it next time..not being snarky...just curious







it's all about her listening to her body. If her body wants a pound of chocolate shouldn't she have it?(my body would really like a pound of very good dark chocolate right now...anyone have any?)







Alo, its not like she would do it everyday...just something to think about

















: How do we know what is too much for one is not enough for another??

Quote:

I feel that as my children's parent, it's my job to protect them from things that can potentially cause them harm. Like table dancing. Like eating too much candy. Like doing so many other things that they would just love to do if, in my opinion, I stepped back and stopped being their parent.
How is eating too much candy potentially dangerous? And how is too much defined?? I am sure there are rare cases with a child dying from too much chocolate but I am sure a child could also dye from eating too many apples too KWIM? However *most* children would stop when they had enough/started to fill grossly full or sick unless they had been routinely denied and felt the need to gorge. In those cases they may end up with a stomach ache, may throw up or display other symptom but dangerous?? No, learning experience, yes.

And how is supervised counter top dancing any more dangerous than playing on monkey bars, going down a slide, running, using scissors? Sure there is the potential to fall the same way there is potential to fall off the monkey bars or to break your neck going down a slide. Do you allow your child to do those things? In the case outlined in the OP the 2 children were being observed by an adult and there were other adults present. Do you not let you children on the playground unless there is one on one supervision? What happens if you are a mom of 2 or more kids-can only one play at time. Not have one on the monkey bars and one on the slide?


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HollyBearsMom*
And how is supervised counter top dancing any more dangerous than playing on monkey bars, going down a slide, running, using scissors? Sure there is the potential to fall the same way there is potential to fall off the monkey bars or to break your neck going down a slide. Do you allow your child to do those things? In the case outlined in the OP the 2 children were being observed by an adult and there were other adults present. Do you not let you children on the playground unless there is one on one supervision? What happens if you are a mom of 2 or more kids-can only one play at time. Not have one on the monkey bars and one on the slide?

To clarify (again!







) I was concerned about *introducing* the idea of dancing on the high island in the kitchen to DD. Yes, there was one adult in the room spotting the two toddlers _at that time_ (other adults were in the next room and in no position to prevent an accident). However, now that DD has discovered that it is possible (and really FUN) to stand up there, she wants to get up there on her own. Perhaps in stocking feet on the slippery granite instead of in her sturdy sneakers. Perhaps when my back is turned.

Playground equipment is designed for children to climb on. Granite island tops, with sharp corners and smooth surfaces, are not. Playground landing spots usually have wood chips or other impact reducers. Hard kitchen floors do not. Playgrounds are for children to play in with a minimum of supervision. Kitchens, quite frankly, are not.

I did not appreciate my daughter being shown that my kitchen is as fun as a playground, when in reality it is just not a safe place for a toddler to play with abandon. My daughter is not old enough to make that distinction. The other mother was, and should have shown better judgement.

I simply cannot explain my perspective any further than that.


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## teachma (Dec 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat*
To clarify (again!







) I was concerned about *introducing* the idea of dancing on the high island in the kitchen to DD. Yes, there was one adult in the room spotting the two toddlers _at that time_ (other adults were in the next room and in no position to prevent an accident). However, now that DD has discovered that it is possible (and really FUN) to stand up there, she wants to get up there on her own. Perhaps in stocking feet on the slippery granite instead of in her sturdy sneakers. Perhaps when my back is turned.

Playground equipment is designed for children to climb on. Granite island tops, with sharp corners and smooth surfaces, are not. Playground landing spots usually have wood chips or other impact reducers. Hard kitchen floors do not. Playgrounds are for children to play in with a minimum of supervision. Kitchens, quite frankly, are not.

I did not appreciate my daughter being shown that my kitchen is as fun as a playground, when in reality it is just not a safe place for a toddler to play with abandon. My daughter is not old enough to make that distinction. The other mother was, and should have shown better judgement.

I simply cannot explain my perspective any further than that.

chinaKat, I still agree with all of the points you put forth, and I would feel as you did in this situation. However, your original post and title of this thread do request justification for this parenting practice, so that's what you got.


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *teachma*
chinaKat, I still agree with all of the points you put forth, and I would feel as you did in this situation. However, your original post and title of this thread do request justification for this parenting practice, so that's what you got.

Ha!

Good point!

I got a little lost in all the chocolate eating and electrical sockets and stair climbing and the like.









Hey, if a thread is still on topic five pages later, it probably wasn't a very good thread to begin with...


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## Daphnes_mama (Sep 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WinterBaby*
Weirdly enough, my husband got my daughter a 1lb bar of chocolate for christmas. I let her eat as much as she wanted, which she did until she got a terrible stomach ache and felt very sick. Now whenever she recieves something like a candy bar I only have to ask her if she remembers how too much makes us feel sick and how much she might like to save for later, and she eats only a small piece and wraps the rest back up, LOL. One of the more productive stupid parenting things I've done, honestly. She lives and learns like the rest of us, and experiencing consquences, barring those that are life threatening, might mean more than being told of them, I guess.

That sounds fine, for Christmas. I let my child have as much candy as she wants at certain times of the year (Halloween, Easter, Christmas) and I let her get a box of yucky, sugary cereal every year on her birthday. I don't want my kids to feel deprived. However, I am absolutely not about allowing my kid to do any ole thing they want, any ole time they want. I am nowhere near strict, but in my opinion, kids function better when they have boundaries.


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## teachma (Dec 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daphnes_mama*
However, I am absolutely not about allowing my kid to do any ole thing they want, any ole time they want. I am nowhere near strict, but in my opinion, kids function better when they have boundaries.

I 100% agree to that! I understand and believe in natural consequences to some extent...I even appreciate (in theory) the whole "eat too much chocolate, feel yucky, choose to not indulge to the same extent at the next opportunity." I do want my children to begin developing their own parameters for safe, healthy, and appropriate actions and behaviors. However, I also realize that some consequences have lasting negative effects, and where do I draw the line? Let my kid drink all the soda he wants ...then let his teeth rot out so that he can learn it wasn't a great idea? (FWIW, my 6 year old DID have one root canal and one extraction due to cavities, and we don't eat sweets or drink juice in my house!) If I can prevent permanent harm from befalling my child because I have had more life experiences than he, and I am more capable of seeing beyond immediate gratification, isn't that my obligation as his mother?

Interestingly, I have begun to notice a peculiar bifurcation amongst moms here, and this is a small example: some do not want their children eating any sweets, while others seem to encourage their children to self-regulate and potentially consume large amounts. All in the name of AP? That's a little bit confusing (and a lot off the topic!!).


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## aprilushka (Aug 28, 2005)

How I would feel about it in my own house without others around depends on the kid but I wouldn't allow my kid to do it in someone else's house.


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## Zach'smom (Nov 5, 2004)

ChinaKat- I don't let kids dance or climb on the counters or tables either. I don't think I would have "freaked" or been pissed. I just would have moved the girls off and said "Lets dance over here instead" and danced with them on the floor somewhere.

I just don't like the idea of people or animals on my counters or table.

No biggie.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I agree with the posters who said they would allow it at their house but wouldn't take liberties at other people's house to assume they are okay with it as well.

At our house if you aren't hurting yourself, someone else, or someone else's property you can dance wherever you like, including table tops. It is my daughter's house too after all.... but I wouldn't do that at someone else's house -- and even at 14 months my daughter knows the difference to a certain degree (my daughter already knows for example, that we can play with OUR remote but at grandmom's house, grandmom doesn't like other people fooling with her remote and leaves it alone with a gentle reminder)

I wouldn't have done that at someone else's house though unless I knew for certain they would be fine with it (i.e seeing them do it prior to me doing it).

Our house is as much our daughter's as it is ours and again, as long as no one is being hurt and no one's property is being detroyed, she has as much freedom to dance on a table as I do --- not that I think it would hold me


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## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Well, it's my husband's house too but I'd probably say something to him if HE started dancing on the countertops, too....


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

but your husband isn't a toddler


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

Jeez, I only got to page 2. I read Continuum Concept and agree with her philosophy _to a point._ I let my ds do a lot of things that some people would think inappropriate or dangerous, but I guess I'm not that crunchy b/c dancing on countertops is not one of them. And I discourage standing on couches and jumping on beds for that matter. And certainly not at someone else's house! But I would be careful in how I turned it down and wouldn't get into what could happen with him. "Up up!" (if that's all it was) seems like it could be redirected pretty easily.

That said, I absolutely HATE it when people say "you're gonna fall!" etc. etc. I'm a safety zealot and uber careful, but that sort of negative, paranoid, no-faith attitude towards kids just strikes me as ignorant. Even mainstream books talk about that.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wednesday*
Exactly...we have had children in our home who have no idea it is not acceptable to climb all over the furniture, for example...I don't even mean just little kids, I mean like 7-8 year olds. Their parents don't say a thing to them about it at home and they are _baffled_ when I ask them not to do it at our house. Honestly their parents can afford to replace furniture that gets all messed up. I personally don't want to spend our family's hard-earned money on replacing things that have been abused.

I think I am especially concerned on this topic because I was a kid who was rarely given any guidance on appropriate behavior, and I frequently got in trouble at friends' houses for doing things I had no idea weren't okay. I don't want my child to be put in the position of being embarrassed or shamed or sent home because another parent is so appalled by their behavior.

You know I agree with both of these posts. I know it's going to be something that is easy to knock down here at MDC, but I'm not giving threats for them to get their feet off the table or expecting too much. I'm just teaching. Because I've had kids here, climbing on couches, throwing my jewelry everywhere, dropping food all over, fiddling with the thermostat. I don't think young kids always understand the difference between the whole crunchy freedom thing and the basic respect for other people's homes. I try to be realistic and I'm really not a hard-ass about it. And a lot of things I let fly, but certain things for me fall under "not allowed, strongly discouraged" either b/c of safety or b/c it's just not something I want to teach him.


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## rharr! (Nov 9, 2005)

I am mostly posting because I need to get 50 posts to find TAO









I let my dd on the counter. She has been climbing up there since, well since she could climb.
For us it is okay, I dont have issues about her feet- now if it was an adult, I would probably be freaked out and need to steralize the counter repeatedly.

Very rarely does dd have accidents. So far she has not ever fallen off the counter. She is agile and quick, and by letting her do her own thing, she has a pretty good understanding of what her body is capable of doing.Very rarely does she get into situations she can not handle or resolve. It has been many months since she has gotten stuck in a tree









I dont think you are weird for not being comfortable with children on your counter. Most people I know IRL are not okay with it- except when in my house.


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

Incedentally, I could have been the mother in the OP letting the kids up on the counter-top. But I probably would have thrown a quick glance to a parent or host to check in the process.
I'm pretty firm in the trusting of children to find their own limits. But it can be very dangerous to blindly trust a child that you dont know well, or if the child is used to being trusted in that way.
A child who has never been allowed to climb on high places and is used to hearing a caregiver saying "dont do that, you might fall", probably hasnt had the same chances to learn the necessary skills as a child who is accustomed to being trusted in most situations. So yeah, "trust your own kids, check with the parents of others' " I think is the moral to this story.

I also let my 3 yo dd self-regulate on food almost 100%. She does eat sweets, but actually less than some other kids I know who have strict "sweet limits". She is more likely to ask me for a piece of friut or yoghurt as a candy bar.
Actually, she just discovered M&Ms last week, and since then (5 days) she's been asking to go to the local corner store every day (on one day twice) to get a little packet. So we go. Yesterday, we got her packet of M&Ms and she ate about 5 of them before putting the packet down and she asked for a sandwich about 10 minutes later.
I decided to play a joke on her and insisted that she cant have anything else till she finishes the M&Ms. She looked at me funny, and took one more M&M, but then refused the rest. I tried to get her to eat one more, and she refused. So I laughed and told her that I was just joking and made her the sandwich...
Today she didnt want to get M&Ms at all, but did ask for a Banana


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy*
but your husband isn't a toddler









I get what you're saying, but I guess I'm confused about some aspects of CC/consensual living. People who practice those ways of living use the comparison to adults all the time -- saying that the house belongs to the kids just as much as the parents, that just because kids are small doesn't mean they should have fewer rights, etc., but then when the OP makes the comparison with kids and adults being on the counter, people say, "Oh, but they're just toddlers." Shouldn't the comparison be able to be used both ways?


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## lurable (Jul 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean*
I get what you're saying, but I guess I'm confused about some aspects of CC/consensual living. People who practice those ways of living use the comparison to adults all the time -- saying that the house belongs to the kids just as much as the parents, that just because kids are small doesn't mean they should have fewer rights, etc., but then when the OP makes the comparison with kids and adults being on the counter, people say, "Oh, but they're just toddlers." Shouldn't the comparison be able to be used both ways?

I think in cc/cl parenting there is an understanding of age appropriate behaviour---understanding that a toddler feels the need to climb and explore and helping the child fufill that, kwim? While an adult would probably not feel the need to act in that way. This isn't a very good example but, I accept the right of my DH to have a beer every once in awhile even though I don't drink. It's not my dd's right though














I don't know if I'm wording this in any logical way, because I am exhausted, but I hope that I am being somewhat coherent


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