# smoking and pot



## embers (Mar 24, 2006)

alone


----------



## Milkymommi (Aug 29, 2003)

Wow. You really put some deep things in your post. It's really caused me to think about the reality of that situation for my own life... I'm going to reflect before I post any response. Thank you for that...


----------



## sammysmammy (Nov 21, 2002)

I also would need to ponder this for awhile,but I also feel like I can relate.We have,almost,two sets of kids....our oldest are 17,15 and 14.Our youngest three are 6,5 and 2.I have dealt with some similiar issues with my 17 yr.old(boy),especially when he started driving.I tend to approach my parenting much like you...and instead of being impractical and unrealistic and saying,"don't drink,don't smoke,don't do drugs,don't have sex...etc" I try to approach these issues with common sense.When J. started driving for instance,I said IF you drink,you are to make sure you're drinking somewhere that you'll want to be staying for awhile,because once you take that first drink DO NOT get into your car...you stay whever you're at. It's worked out,and he always calls to tell me if he's staying at a friend's house and if I say are you drinking he answers me honestly.
I think the privacy box and letting the boys know they can go into the back yard is a good idea,the only thing I worry about is you getting in trouble.All it would take is one conventional parent finding out and calling authorities,the school whatever.........and then they would pro'lly have to investigate.That could get hairy.It's just you I would be concerned about,but as far as the way you've handled it with your son,I say right on


----------



## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I'd probably do something similar. Although my 17 year old has no interest in smoking at all. I'm not sure if it's because her dad smokes? I can't stand the smell of tobacco ( other smokes don't bother me







). If she wanted to try it I'm sure we would have provided it. I remember trying my fathers tobacco and hating it when I was about your sons ages









As for the pot, I'm personally less concerned about pot than tobacco. I had my first drink at home provided by my mom.


----------



## embers (Mar 24, 2006)

alone


----------



## embers (Mar 24, 2006)

alone


----------



## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Well, we HS also







My dd is older than your kids and she is well versed in stuff like The Emperor Wears No Clothes








In my state pot is a ticket although not for under age people. In my case, if it was happening in our home or on our property I wouldn't be that concerned with getting caught. Of course everyones situation is different.


----------



## lanamommyphd07 (Feb 14, 2007)

The only potential problem I can see about this is the friend being also involved. If I knew a parent was turning a blind eye to smoking pot when my child was involved, I'd probably pitch a fit. I'm not the type to say "never ever" but am the type to put a limit on "while you're a full time member of the household". When sd was a teen, we talked about pot and whatnot, and I set the limit of "wait until college" and used the fact that I was still responsible for her, her body and health, there were people in residence in the home with professional licenses to protect, etc.


----------



## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *embers* 
Provide it? I have not even considered that. I am not sure where they are getting it (smokes or the pot) or if they are putting themselves in danger while doing so. They have total control over their money. This is just one more aspect that I have yet to consider.

The two things that jumped out at me are that A.) there is another child involved. Claiming ignorance with your own children is one thing, but I would never do it with someone else's child. I think they have to come to the same conclusions about their child, as you have with yours. So in that respect, I would put a stop to allowing the friend to be involved in said exploration. Or, talk to the parents, but if you do that then you can't pretend you didn't know. Catch 22.

And B.) you don't know where they're getting it from. While marijuana is not typically a drug that gets spiked (mixing more expensive drugs with a less expensive one doesn't make the much sense), it can happen. My issue with marijuana is the source. Locally grown (like in your friends back yard, for example) is one thing, but drugs from other countries cant support inhumane working conditions, drug related crimes, etc. Not something I'm comfortable letting my children inadvertently support because they bought a baggie from some kid at school.. you just DON'T know where it came from.


----------



## embers (Mar 24, 2006)

alone


----------



## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *embers* 
Well, I agree, and you are echoing some of my other fears and concerns. I am just not sure what to do about it all.... I am very anxious and eager for ideas, suggestions, BTDTs, etc.

My daughter is only 17 months, so no been there done that with her.

But I grew up in a home much like yours, in that my parents preferred us to explore in the comfort and safety of our own home as opposed to sneaking out into the bushes. My parents, however, would never have supported us in stealing so we could explore. Either they fully supported us, which involved supplying the beer, or they didn't. But they never would have allowed us to steal beer from someone else's home and then bring it home and drink it, as long as we covered our tracks and didn't expose ourselves. So in that respect, I have sort of been there done that. I had my first "smoke" with my dad at 14 at a Pink Floyd concert.

I also grew up with pot being no more serious then beer or wine, or any other legal and socially acceptable substance. There wasn't that taboo-ness about it, which I think you're still harboring since your "official stance" is that you don't know they're doing it. I understand you wanting them to feel safe doing it at home so they're not out getting high somewhere in public, and that's great. But if you are not a supporter of marijuana in the sense that you want to purchase ethically grown pot and supervise them doing it (which my dad did), thus KNOWING about it, then I don't know how to suggest not supporting it without possibly pushing them out of the home.









I'm also curious to hear from those who allow it but don't fully support it.


----------



## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
In my state pot is a ticket although not for under age people.

Actually, it could be a much more serious problem for the parents, since smoking ANYthing is illegal for kids.It is entirely possible that, should their activities come to light, one or the other kid will let spill that the parents knew and condoned the behavior. Hello, CPS.


----------



## barbara73069 (Apr 21, 2007)

Interesting post and I do understand where you're coming from. I do have an issue with pot though because unfortunately it is illegal. If pot were legal, I'd rather my kids smoked a joint on occasion rather than drinking. Both my daughters smoke cigs however, and I blame myself for that being a lifelong smoker. By the time I discovered that they smoked they were addicted to them just like i am and they have no desire to quit. I do let them smoke at home and I do buy their cigarettes for them now. It's a nasty habit, but who am I to talk ughhh. Anyway just my opinion and good luck. Barb


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

You could have bigger problems than getting in trouble for them using pot. If you allow them to have it and use it on your property and a teen who can drive does so, you can be held responsible for injuries and death to that teen or caused by that teen behing the wheel.

A case, involving alcohol, just went all the way up to the U.S. Supreme Court and the Pareants lost. They have to go to jail for years, there other children are being taken from them etc.....

I think that given your open relationship with your kids you need to explain to them that they are putting you at risk of jail and themselves and their siblings at risk of losing YOU.


----------



## Stinkerbell (Aug 11, 2005)

Quote:

I told them that I will honor their privacy as long as they honor the household and family;
You don't think doing illegal drugs as children is dishonoring your house and family?

I'm not flaming you....I'm just asking. There are 2 things I strive to teach my children by example: to respect your body and to respect the law. Even if you disagree with that law, you can try to change it but you have to respect it because that is the difference between a state of civilized union and chaos.

So by allowing my child to do drugs and smoke in my home, I'd be giving them permission to disrespect my home, their bodies, the law and my family.

I think it's totally fab that you are honest and open and encouraging to your kids to be honest with you. I agree that sneaking and secrets are not healthy.

But I also think that sometimes kids test boundaries, for various reasons. And they need to know that you are going to help them establish boundaries for their own safety and well being. Putting your foot down about not allowing drug use would be, I think, basic boundary setting.


----------



## sammysmammy (Nov 21, 2002)

I think that like one of the PP's said,alot of this would have to do on how you as an individual feels about mj in general. I don't agree either,with people that say boundary setting is necessary,and by doing so you would teach that these things are wrong,not allowed,etc. The majority of teens that DON'T try anything(cigs,pot,drinking,sex)is probably pretty small. I think the OP is jus' trying to approach this from a practical standpoint. It would be different if she came to her son and his friend and said since I know someday you're probably going to try this stuff,how about we just go ahead and give you these allowances in order to do so. She knew the boys were curious and probably already experimenting....so she would rather take an honest approach,for their safety,then to have them sneaking around. ITA with her approach,though before I had teenagers I don't know if I would've. When you are put in these situations,it makes you take a very different look at things.


----------



## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sammysmammy* 
so she would rather take an honest approach,for their safety,then to have them sneaking around. ITA with her approach,though before I had teenagers I don't know if I would've. When you are put in these situations,it makes you take a very different look at things.

I agree with the _approach_ as well, but I think that substance use needs to be accompanied by a certain level of responsibility to be considered safe and ethical (as much as can be considering it IS illegal). If the kids are not able to do that and are instant on exploring, then either they are not ready, or they need the guidance of someone who can teach them how to use these substances responsibly and safely.

This worries me...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *embers* 
My "official" stance is that I don't even know that it is happening, and I would like for the kids to make sure that there is no evidence or carelessness to suggest the contrary.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *embers* 
I think that they may be getting the non-pot (and the pot?) smokables from his mom (probably not by permission, though).

Have you talked to your son about where they are getting their "smokables" from? If I had any suspicions that my daughter was stealing, or using a substance that was acquired through theft, that would have to be addressed immediately.

The bottom line is that while I understand what you're trying to accomplish, I don't think the message you're sending is how to acquire, use, and manage substance use responsibly. And that could be for anything from cigarettes to beer, to pot.

Part of safe exploration, in our home anyway, was also being responsible for ALL facets of substance use. Not just the "go home and smoke it where I'm safe" part. He may be safe IN your backyard, but he may not be safe from the people with whom he's dealing, from the actual substance itself, and from the law. Not only because pot is a controlled substance, but because he *may* be involved in theft (even just for cigarettes.. I can't imagine any parents, however handsoff, being thrilled with finding out their son and possibly his friend have been stealing from them).

I don't see these issues changing when DD becomes a teenager. But I can see this coming down to how badly I want her to _learn_ how to be responsible for substance use, versus just being safe _when_ she uses it. The former would entail my involvement, but, I am Ok with that.


----------



## talk de jour (Apr 21, 2005)

I think you're handling the situation really well. Good job, mama.


----------



## cfiddlinmama (May 9, 2006)

I don't have a lot of advice. I just wanted to say that I hope that I'm able to have as open a relationship with my kids as you have with yours. The other posters have made some really good points. I wish you peace in your decisions. This can't be easy!


----------



## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Embers, you might find this thread helpful and insightful.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=702913


----------



## kate3 (May 4, 2007)

I guess I'll be the voice of dissent here.

My kids lost 3 of their 4 grandparents as a result of lifelong smoking. Two died of metastatic lung cancer and one due to cardiomyopathy/CHF/chronic obstructive lung disease. All 3 of these grandparents began smoking as teens and tried many times over the years to quit without success. We cared for them as they were dying and it was the most horrific process to be part of. Even with hospice and an incredible amount of medication, the pain they were in was overwhelming.

I think it is naive to believe that "experimenting" won't lead to more smoking (nicotine is one of the most addictive stubstances there is), and exposure at such a young age will only make dependence worse.

I understand that you are attempting to have an open relationship with excellent communication, but parenting also involves setting boundaries and protecting children, not just being their friend. At 13 they are unable to predict the consequences of their actions and cannot see how their behavior today will affect them later in life. That's where you come in.


----------



## todavia (Aug 11, 2006)

i don't see the previous posters as being casual about their teens smoking pot. they seem caring and concerned and trying to take an approach that will not alienate their kids or disrupt an open dialogue and trusting relationship.


----------



## kate3 (May 4, 2007)

I've been mulling over this post all afternoon, mostly because I'm one of the only people who disagreed with allowing children to smoke cigarettes and marijuana.

I posted earlier about tobacco, but here are my thoughts on marijuana. Right now, in this country, it is illegal. Whether you think mj should or should not be lealized is irrelevant. Bottom line, if you allow your kids to smoke you are both breaking the law.

So my philosphical take on this is why is it acceptable for you to decide which laws you will abide by? Do you (or anyone else) just simply get to pick and choose based on which ones you like or agree with? Is stealing appropriate if we feel the price of something is too high? Can we park our cars anywhere we feel like it? Can we refuse to pay bills/taxes because we fundamentally disagee with the process? An extreme example would be can we kill someone because we don't like them?

The point I am trying to make is even if you don't agree with mj being illegal, does that make it ok to break the law? What would happen if everyone only abided by the laws they believed in? Wouldn't that create absolute chaos? What kind of message does that send to very young teens about socitial responsibility?

Just some moral/ethical/philosophical points to ponder.................


----------



## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kate3* 
Just some moral/ethical/philosophical points to ponder.................

Perhaps a spin off thread about the legalization of MJ would be better then taking this thread down that path. If you search for that topic you'll find a ton of threads about it.

But comparing a few puffs on a joint to murder is ridiculous and totally unproductive to this conversation.


----------



## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

what's going to happen when this 13yo boy and his friends wants to "experiment" w/ smoking crack?







: I think letting them smoke anything in your home or on your property is sending the wrong message. because how are they not "hiding" when they smoke out of your DS back window and you don't know about it? because you ARE condoning it indirectly by allowing it, or is it ok and it's not hiding because they are telling you about it? not understanding this at all?







I think you are sending very mixed messages to your kids. not to mention 12 ans 13yo is waaaay to young to begin experimenting w/ smoking too, nictotine, pot or otherwise! ickk.







:







:


----------



## mimim (Nov 2, 2003)

Personally, I wouldn't be worried about marijuana, if it wasn't illegal. I'd definitely allow my child to experiment with it in appropriate settings. We'd discuss making responsible choices about when and where and with whom and how often. I would most certainly want to know how they were acquiring it, because that it the most dangerous part of the marijuana experience.

Tobacco is totally different however. It is EXTREMELY addictive. I know this because I am a former smoker and spent years of my life withdrawing from this addictive substance. If my children want to experiment with smoking tobacco I will urge them as strongly as possible to stay away from it. It's so easy to become addicted, that even occasional use is dangerous.

It hasn't come up with my 13 yo yet although we have had many discussions on the subject. I'm thinking my younger kids will be more likely to want to experiment with this stuff.


----------



## kate3 (May 4, 2007)

Quote:

But comparing a few puffs on a joint to murder is ridiculous and totally unproductive to this conversation.
No, this is not unproductive. If fact, it raises some very important issues. By allowing your children to engage in an illegal act with your consent you are sending the message that some laws are ok to be broken. It is impossible to have a discussion about a 13yo using mj without acknowledging the legal ramifications of the act.


----------



## mimim (Nov 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kate3* 
No, this is not unproductive. If fact, it raises some very important issues. By allowing your children to engage in an illegal act with your consent you are sending the message that some laws are ok to be broken. It is impossible to have a discussion about a 13yo using mj without acknowledging the legal ramifications of the act.


Some of us do think that not all laws need to be blindly followed. I would encourage my children to evade a military draft, for example. My DH drives over the speed limit regularly, etc.


----------



## Stinkerbell (Aug 11, 2005)

I'm going to go back to my position of not encouraging children to break the law but rather, help them find ways to set out to change it. Not to mention, mj use has NOT been studied, long term, anywhere near enough to know what it's true dangers are. It strikes me as irresponsible parenting to give the go ahead for your child to use illegal drugs. What kind of world will we live in if everyone did that?

I'm not trying to slam the OP, but I am really sad about this. I hope your son gets the direction he needs to head on a path of good choices.


----------



## holly6737 (Dec 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mimim* 
Some of us do think that not all laws need to be blindly followed. I would encourage my children to evade a military draft, for example. My DH drives over the speed limit regularly, etc.

Not to mention that in some states (mine included) direct-entry midwives are illegal. Should they also have to follow the law (and no longer catch babies, which in these states, would basically force women into hospital births) just because it's the law? I think the "because the government says so" is a dangerous line of thinking. BTW- I am for legalizing pot too. And I can't really have an opinion of what I would do if my 13 y.o. wanted to do it b/c my oldest is only 2!


----------



## HeidiAnn67 (Jun 12, 2007)

I have two teenage sons, 19 & 15, and whether you believe it or not I can GUARENTEE they have never smoked pot. My boys are very open with me and I do know about my 19 year old drinking and he knows how I feel about it (and it NEVER has happened in my home, another thing I can guarentee).

The reason I wouldn't want my son's being friends with yours is because you are allowing a child who is not yours and without his parents permission to smoke pot in your home. If any of my son's friends parents had done that with my son it wouldn't have been a pretty scene when I found out.


----------



## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kate3* 
No, this is not unproductive. If fact, it raises some very important issues. By allowing your children to engage in an illegal act with your consent you are sending the message that some laws are ok to be broken. It is impossible to have a discussion about a 13yo using mj without acknowledging the legal ramifications of the act.

Yes, implying that a few tokes on a joint is equal to murder is ridiculous. For one, they are distinctly different from each other. Just because they both involve breaking the law does not make them even remotely similar.

By all means, have a talk about the legalities of using MJ. But in our home, MJ use will not equate to murder. Nor will it equate parking where I choose, stealing, evading taxes, or speeding.

I generally oppose laws that dictate what I can/can't do in the privacy of my own home. MJ laws fall under that category. The only reason my family would be at "risk" if I chose to partake in the use of MJ would be because it's against the law. Otherwise, a few tokes in the evening before I watch a movie or read a book will not harm anyone. Speeding, murder, stealing, etc, can.

Here in lies the problem with MJ use and children/teens. If you are of the belief that what you do in your own home is no one's business but your family's, and that the decisions you make regarding your own body are no one's choice but your's, then why should this be any different?

But I view breaking the law in regards to _my own body_ as being distinctly different then breaking the law where other people are concerned, like with murder, stealing, speeding, etc. I would not teach my child(ren) otherwise.

To equate this law with the laws regarding murder is not, in my opinion, productive to this conversation.


----------



## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kate3* 
By allowing your children to engage in an illegal act with your consent you are sending the message that some laws are ok to be broken.

do you really think all laws should be blindly followed?

i'd rather raise a "law-breaker" than a person incapable of critical thought about dumb laws, of which there are many.

this is not to say people should just break laws without regard for consequences just because they aren't sure the laws are ethical. but making an INFORMED decision to break a law you don't agree with is a form of social criticism--ever heard of civil disobedience?


----------



## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *readytobedone* 
do you really think all laws should be blindly followed?

i'd rather raise a "law-breaker" than a person incapable of critical thought about dumb laws, of which there are many.

this is not to say people should just break laws without regard for consequences just because they aren't sure the laws are ethical. but making an INFORMED decision to break a law you don't agree with is a form of social criticism--ever heard of civil disobedience?









:


----------



## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I'm not raising a sheeple. I'm raising a thoughtful intelligent free thinking young woman. And yep we don't blindly follow law although we also don;t blindly break them, I prefer informed consent and a rational use of weighing the pros and cons.


----------



## kate3 (May 4, 2007)

Quote:

this is not to say people should just break laws without regard for consequences just because they aren't sure the laws are ethical. but making an INFORMED decision to break a law you don't agree with is a form of social criticism--ever heard of civil disobedience?
And this brings up a crucial point:
A 13yo does not have adult reasoning or life skills to make these types of INFORMED decisions. That's where parenting comes in. Condoning drug use in a child is way beyond civil disobedience.


----------



## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I disagree.

I certainly did have that ability, as did most people I know.

A friend and I organized a walk-out in high school to protest education cuts.

Hell, my 3 year old can understand basic critical thinking of different rules of different places and what makes some of them illogical.


----------



## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
I'm not raising a sheeple. I'm raising a thoughtful intelligent free thinking young woman. And yep we don't blindly follow law although we also don;t blindly break them, I prefer informed consent and a rational use of weighing the pros and cons.

Yes!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
I disagree.

Me too. My life skills at 13 exceed my currently 21 year old sister's life skills. She is eerily niave and immature at times. I really worry about how she will function in society when she leaves my mother's house.

I don't believe age is a diffinite determining factor for a lot of things. In many ways it's just a number.


----------



## holly6737 (Dec 21, 2006)

Actually, the idea that people under the age of 21 don't have the critical thinking skills of adults is not an opinion, it's a physiological fact that has to do with the development of the prefrontal cortex. Just playing the devil's advocate, not to say those that disagree with the OP are the devil...


----------



## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

This is reminding me of the emotional maturity thread in TAO.

While I agree that kids *speaking generally* don't have the same critical thinking skills as adults, that is dependant on the which kid and which adult.

Regardless in this case the parent is the one that is deciding not the kid.


----------



## <~*MamaRose*~> (Mar 4, 2007)

I have only read the OP so once I have posted this I will go and finish reading all 3 pages&#8230;

I'm not sure I agree with much of what you've posted. The approach of basically turning a blind eye to drug use with a 12yo doesn't feel appropriate to me and not to mention the fact that you have included someone else's child into this. Yes I do understand that you have had open and frank discussions with your son about drugs and drug use. I honestly think that 4 years ago I may have called the police on you if it were my son that was at your house doing this with your "permission".

Now fast forward 4 years to now (I've been through a lot with my son during this time, he is now 16) I wouldn't necessarily jump at calling the police on you but I would instead talk to you about my feelings with regards to my 12yo son using in your home with your "permission".

I do understand what you're doing with your son, it's just that I don't share the same parenting style especially when dealing with a 12 yo and drug use.

Now I will go back and read all the responses as believe it or not reading others experiences & advice has actaully changed my way of thinking or at least made me more receptive in the past.


----------



## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *holly6737* 
Actually, the idea that people under the age of 21 don't have the critical thinking skills of adults is not an opinion, it's a physiological fact that has to do with the development of the prefrontal cortex. Just playing the devil's advocate, not to say those that disagree with the OP are the devil...

If you want to argue this logic, then 16 year olds shouldn't drive, 18 year olds shouldn't go to war, etc..


----------



## holly6737 (Dec 21, 2006)

Well, actually, no, I don't think 18 year olds are old enough to go to war, and 13 year olds definitely aren't, but that's another topic. Look, I'm all for legalization of marijuana and for it's use under controlled circumstances among informed, consenting adults who understand the consequences of their actions. What I am arguing is that a 13 year old isn't old enough to understand the consequences of his actions. He can say "Oh yeah, Okay, mom, I get it. I smoke marijuana and I die. Thanks", but he really doesn't get it. The prefrontal cortex is still developing until at least 20 years old, and this is the area of the brain that deals with judgement, impulses and understanding consequences. This physiological reason is why many states have banned the death penalty for children under the age of 21. If he can't understand the consequences of his actions, he isn't making an informed decision. The "Natural consequences" style of parenting is very effective, and I'm not arguing that it isn't. We use this quite often with our toddler. But it really only works when there is an immediate, or pretty quick, natural consequence and when that consequence doesn't involve someone being severly hurt. What are the natural consequences that could happen because of this child's drug use? He could be injured by the drug dealer. He could be caught buying, selling or in possession of drugs and be put in jail. He could get lung cancer and die when he's in his 50's. None of those are natural consequences that I would want for my child, personally (although if it were only one night in jail, I might think that would be pretty effective, honestly). If the OP really wants her teenager to understand the consequences of marijuana use, she should introduce him to someone who is in the final stages of lung cancer or someone who's actually been in jail for drug possession. Perhaps this teenager should go talk to someone at the sherriff's department so he can really fully understand how someone is treated when they are charged with marijuana possession (what it's like to be arrested, booked, held in jail, etc.). Only then could I see a valid argument that this child is making an informed decision, and even then I think there are some who might still say no.


----------



## <~*MamaRose*~> (Mar 4, 2007)

After reading all the responses so far I still feel the same as I did before.

holly6737~ I totally agree with your last post!


----------



## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *holly6737* 
Well, actually, no, I don't think 18 year olds are old enough to go to war

Well just because it's the law, doesn't make it right. That's the point some of us are making - that just because it's illegal, doesn't mean it's wrong. Some laws suck.

As someone else said; I'd rather raise a "law-breaker" than a person incapable of critical thought about dumb laws.


----------



## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HeidiAnn67* 
I have two teenage sons, 19 & 15, and whether you believe it or not I can GUARENTEE they have never smoked pot.

Well.... I'm 44 and I've never smoked pot, either. Tried a regular smoke once. Color me square. And while I can't guarantee that my nearly 16yo has never tried it (although I'm pretty sure he hasn't), I can guarantee that he doesn't smoke.

I'm sorry, but for a group of people who seem completely paranoid regarding CPS involvement in your lives, I'm shocked at the total disregard towards the consequences of this illegal behavior. 'Cause allowing a pair of 13yo's to smoke illegally IS very likely to bring CPS down on you.


----------



## <~*MamaRose*~> (Mar 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mtiger* 
I'm sorry, but for a group of people who seem completely paranoid regarding CPS involvement in your lives, I'm shocked at the total disregard towards the consequences of this illegal behavior. 'Cause allowing a pair of 13yo's to smoke illegally IS very likely to bring CPS down on you.

I realize not everyone is paranoid of CPS BUT there are a lto of threads that mention the concern so I did think this too....


----------



## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mtiger* 
I'm sorry, but for a group of people who seem completely paranoid regarding CPS involvement in your lives, I'm shocked at the total disregard towards the consequences of this illegal behavior.

I think you should search for my thoughts on CPS before you lump me into that generalization.


----------



## embers (Mar 24, 2006)

There is no "disregard" for the legal or CPS issues at all. Total regard. A LOT of regard. Paranoid regard. We are just TALKING about smoking right now, and I have a HUGE regard for the legal and child services aspect of ANY way that I approach this issue. So... those that are so against me, against my approach, appalled, sad for my poor child, etc... GIVE ME SOME SUGGESTIONS, PLEASE. Give me some honest, real suggestions on what to do, other than simply telling my child not to do it "or else". Read my posts, see where I am at (understand that these boys are not getting high in the yard and partying, but that we are having open CONVERSATIONS about smoking and his curiosity and interest) - and then give me some IDEAS.

No one is saying that smoking is not a problem, or that it should be encouraged. I am simply talking about an APPROACH. One way (mine, in this case) to try to do well by a teenage boy in a culture that wants to just throw them away or instantly consider them all bad.


----------



## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kate3* 
No, this is not unproductive. If fact, it raises some very important issues. By allowing your children to engage in an illegal act with your consent you are sending the message that some laws are ok to be broken. It is impossible to have a discussion about a 13yo using mj without acknowledging the legal ramifications of the act.

i think its rather i good time to talk about how pot is illegal and tobacco and liquor are and the only real reason is because the government can't make a bunch of money on it because so many people are capable of growing it themselves...
its a great opportunity to discuss the fact that laws are not necessarily good or bad. for instance the laws against native americans practicing their religion i.e. sweats, the sun dance, peyote....or laws that stated black people had to sit in the back of the bus or that women couldn't vote.
laws are made by men, therefore they are incredibly FALLIBLE. i hope my kid is capable of understanding moral and ethical "law" before actual government law... because federal and state laws certainly don't make it "right" or "wrong".


----------



## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kate3* 
And this brings up a crucial point:
A 13yo does not have adult reasoning or life skills to make these types of INFORMED decisions. That's where parenting comes in. Condoning drug use in a child is way beyond civil disobedience.

a 13 year old is capable of a lot more than you are giving them credit for.


----------



## <~*MamaRose*~> (Mar 4, 2007)

I will think this over more as I don't want to answer too quickly but please please please do not involve someone else's child when you decide to or decide not to allow smoking of any kind at your home.

And for the record I don't think you're a horrible parent and I definitely don't think your son is horrible...I was just being honest about what my gut reaction would have been 4 years ago when my son was 12-13yo.


----------



## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

I've spent several years of my life reading everything I could get my hot little hands on about drugs and drug use. I don't use any drugs (other than the occasional chocolate bar and my beloved daily cup of black tea







: ) at the moment. That's where I'm coming from, and here is my opinion -

I would have a much bigger problem with the cigarettes than the pot... I would be okay with my children trying organic home-grown tobacco, but mass-grown tobacco is quite radioactive which is (I believe) why there are so many health issues related to its use - and mass-produced cigarettes are right up there with meth and E on the (mental) list of the drugs I would least like my children to experiment with... Tobacco use is much safer when it is smoked in a pipe because it's a smaller quantity and requires more work to smoke (keeping it going, etc).

As for the legality of cannabis - if it doesn't harm anyone else (other than potentially the user), if there is no victim, then why is it illegal? If the user him/herself is the victim then why are we punishing the "victim" with fines and jail time anyhow?

I highly recommend that you (general *you* who believe in being open and honest with your children about drug use) buy your teens a copy of Dr. Andrew Weil's book "From Chocolate to Morphine" It is geared specifically to teens and does not preach abstinence, but moderation. It does not utilize fear tactics, but truth (both good and bad), along with guidelines for teens to make experimentation with drugs as safe as it can possibly be.

love and peace.


----------



## embers (Mar 24, 2006)

trmpetplaya, can you PM me some information about the radioactivity of commercial cigarettes/tobacco?

I will buy that book for my older two, thanks!


----------



## E.V. Lowi (Sep 16, 2005)

trmpetplaya- Thank you for the book recommendation. I wasn't aware that Weil had written a book on this topic. I have enjoyed one other informative book by the same author and I'll bet this is another good one. I'm looking for something of this nature to share with my 14 yo dd.


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Here is a story about parents jailed for allowing teens to drink alcohol on their premises.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...0802795_2.html

No one drove or got hurt, but the mom is still going to jail, it's so sad!

Show this to your son and have a discussion about it. Perhaps it will help him realize the serious jepoardy he puts you (and himself, by not having you around) in.


----------



## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
No one drove or got hurt, but the mom is still going to jail, it's so sad!

But what she did was illegal. As bad, she apparently lied to the other kids' parents about the booze. It wasn't her place in any way, shape or form to make the decision to allow the other kids to drink.


----------



## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Well.. what can I say, majority of people here will understand me as a controlling parent to a mindless being who is disrespected by her parents because they would not tolerate smoking in the house (not because it is illegal, but because it is very harmful to a child's health).

We are mindless puppets of the goverment, dont' know right from wrong, and could care less about child's freedom to explore. We do not respect our child, we do not hold open discussions, and FOR SURE our teenager is doing a whole number of things behind our back...









Here is a side of argument I don't understand though...

If people claim that they have great communitcation with their children, then how come I chose to accept my parents' values and never smoked (I'm certain they would never allow it, but I understood their concern regarding drugs and smoking well enough not to want to go "experiment" inside or outside the house..) Does it mean that I have no opinions of my own? Does that mean to you that I will always follow the goverment rules? Does that mean that I was not raised to see what's important in life? Or that I can't make my own choices? Or that I can't hold heart to heart discussons with my parents? Or my child?..







:

I think our value system "rubbs off" on our kids, and if they feel you are ok with allowing certain things - then those things are much more likely to happen in your house. And for every adult who says "well, didn't stop me when I was a kid!", there is another adult saying "well, never meant I would go behind my parents' back to smoke / do drugs / have sex / etc. etc.)".


----------



## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oriole* 
Well.. what can I say, majority of people here will understand me as a controlling parent to a mindless being who is disrespected by her parents because they would not tolerate smoking in the house (not because it is illegal, but because it is very harmful to a child's health).

We are mindless puppets of the goverment, dont' know right from wrong, and could care less about child's freedom to explore. We do not respect our child, we do not hold open discussions, and FOR SURE our teenager is doing a whole number of things behind our back...









You're just a tool of the man, Oriole.


----------



## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
a 13 year old is capable of a lot more than you are giving them credit for.

So is MJ and smoking.


----------



## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

I sympathize with you, embers. This teenager stuff doesn't come easily for me. I am the parent that lets the toddler climb on the back of the sofa. I like the approach of giving my children information and allowing them to make their own decisions, even when that results in the occasional lump.

That said...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oriole* 
I think our value system "rubs off" on our kids, and if they feel you are ok with allowing certain things - then those things are much more likely to happen in your house.









whether we like it or not, we are helping our children set their expectations for themselves--even more so when we have a close and trusting relationship. They look to us to see what we expect of them. Having the attitude of "they're going to do it no matter what" sets the bar pretty low.


----------



## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oriole* 
So is MJ and smoking.

i'm not following this. mj and smoking are capable of more than i give them credit for? could you post again to clarify? not being snarky, i swear, i just read this a bunch of times and i am not 100% sure what you mean exactly. thanks!


----------



## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
Here is a story about parents jailed for allowing teens to drink alcohol on their premises.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...0802795_2.html

No one drove or got hurt, but the mom is still going to jail, it's so sad!

Show this to your son and have a discussion about it. Perhaps it will help him realize the serious jeopardy he puts you (and himself, by not having you around) in.

If my child went to a party and I called the parents to see if there was alcohol there and they lied to be, supplied my child with beer and wine, and then tried to get my child hide the smell of it... well, I'd want them to go to jail too!!

That's why the OP absolutely should not include other children in her son's "exploration". I wouldn't even talk to the other boy. If he wanted to be included in the discussions, I would call the other parents and tell them that the boys are curious and that some discussions are popping up, and leave it up to her to discuss it with her son, or give you the go ahead.

But if you're not involving half the neighborhood then what would the problem be? I've already said before that what happens in the privacy of your home is no one's business but your's, but I tend to think that when you have a house full of OTHER people's kids, you kind of loose your right to that privacy.


----------



## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
If my child went to a party and I called the parents to see if there was alcohol there and they lied to be, supplied my child with beer and wine, and then tried to get my child hide the smell of it... well, I'd want them to go to jail too!!

That's why the OP absolutely should not include other children in her son's "exploration". I wouldn't even talk to the other boy. If he wanted to be included in the discussions, I would call the other parents and tell them that the boys are curious and that some discussions are popping up, and leave it up to her to discuss it with her son, or give you the go ahead.

But if you're not involving half the neighborhood then what would the problem be? I've already said before that what happens in the privacy of your home is no one's business but your's, but I tend to think that when you have a house full of OTHER people's kids, you kind of loose your right to that privacy.

I have to agree with this.


----------



## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Another excellent book to get (and read yourself first) is Dr. Weil's "The Natural Mind" which explores the theory that human beings have a need to alter consciousness. Dr. Weil examines the different methods of altering consciousness and how they differ from each other. These methods range from drug use (requires little skill and gives bodily "feedback" - being impaired in various ways) to meditation (requires much skill and doesn't give bodily "feedback" and thus gives a "more pure high").

If I could have parents and teens read any three books about drug use it would be the above book, the one I mentioned in my pp, and the Consumers Guide to Licit and Illicit Drugs. My children will be reading all of them at some point and I have read all of them.

Dr. Weil compares the drive to alter consciousness to the sex drive and just as we prepare our children to deal with their sex drive in less harmful ways (masturbation, for example), we need to prepare our teens to make the best decisions regarding altering consciousness. Their decisions may be different than we think they should be (ie - they may still experiment with drugs even if we encourage meditation just like they may still go out and have sex even if we encourage masturbation), but at least they'll be informed and know what we expect of them. They will also have the knowledge to make their experimentation as safe as possible if they do choose to, thus minimizing their risks of becoming addicted or abusers.

love and peace.


----------



## AbundantLife (Jun 4, 2005)

I would not allow it in my home.

I'm all for the "no shame" method of parenting, especially when it comes to teens and pre-teens, but you have to draw the line on illegal activities.


----------



## AbundantLife (Jun 4, 2005)

Some food for thought for those parents who condone marijuana smoking.

Teens and Marijuana

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Marijuana is the most widely used illicit drug in the United States. It tends to be the first illegal drug that teens use. Nearly one in ten teens ages 12 to 17 currently used marijuana in the United States. Nearly a quarter of eighth graders reported that they had already tried it. A 1997 survey of Michigan high-school students showed that 48 percent of students surveyed had tried marijuana and 28 percent were current users.

_"Adolescents are particularly at risk of adverse reactions from hallucinogen use as they enter puberty, a time of rapid physical and emotional changes. Hallucinogens are particularly dangerous because the effects are so unpredictable. They can cause violent behavior in some and suicidal tendencies in others. As memory, perception, and judgment are clouded under the influence, users are at risk of severe injuries, overdose, and death from drowning, burns, falls, and car accidents. Sometimes, hallucinogen use can uncover severe mental disorders, such as schizophrenia or severe depression." Texas Commission on Alcohol and Drug Abuse_

In my opinion, allowing your children to smoke pot is akin to child abuse.

Seriously, folks, when did parenting become a constant questioning of whether or not we were doing the right thing by our children? Having an open, honest relationship with your child does not mean we allow them to abuse their bodies.


----------



## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
i think its rather i good time to talk about how pot is illegal and tobacco and liquor are and the only real reason is because the government can't make a bunch of money on it because so many people are capable of growing it themselves...
its a great opportunity to discuss the fact that laws are not necessarily good or bad. for instance the laws against native americans practicing their religion i.e. sweats, the sun dance, peyote....or laws that stated black people had to sit in the back of the bus or that women couldn't vote.
laws are made by men, therefore they are incredibly FALLIBLE. i hope my kid is capable of understanding moral and ethical "law" before actual government law... because federal and state laws certainly don't make it "right" or "wrong".









:

i actually could not DISAGREE more with everyone who is saying you have to teach your kids to obey laws. that is a really dangerous type of thinking because sometimes laws are just FREAKING WRONG! like the rider in the homeland security act that kept parents from suing pharmaceutical companies over thimerasol in vaccines--

that law is WRONG. the goverment is CORRUPT. if you teach kids to follow every law the same, you're not teaching them to think for themselves, and you're adding more "sheeples" to the population. as if we need more--how do you think we're still in iraq? sheeples!!!


----------



## embers (Mar 24, 2006)

I am confused and appalled at the posts bashing my child or myself. I have not DONE anything yet, I have only had conversations, used serious critical thought, and asked for opinions and suggestions. Why would you not want your child to be my child's friend? Because he is a curious and world-aware person that feels comfortable coming to his parents for information and to discuss his interest in exploring smoking? Or because I did not completely think out every ramification and possible ethical and legal side of the issue before having conversations with my son and posting asking for input? Like I said in my first post, this is a brand new topic in our family and that my stance, my process, and my plans may change and change again until it is "right" (meaning, right for our family and I am at ease with myself inside). This is a PROCESS. I do not ignore or postpone certain topics with my children because I have not yet formulated the perfect responses. We talk in the moment... in real life... like PEOPLE do. We also know that we can go back and revisit thing, make changes as we think and learn, and try again. That is the glory and value of TALKING about things before doing them. I do not see why someone would need to stick their head into this thread to simply say they are glad that their children do not know my son or myself. That is a painful thing to say, and the intolerance behind it is ugly. AND it does not help me one turd; I have asked for ideas and suggestions from those that take a different stance or highly disagree with my method. I am exploring all angles and want to do right by my children (and other people's children). If you can leap up to post a few lines against me or my child, could you also pop up and post a few lines on how you think that we could instead do better? I promise to take it into consideration open mindedly and MAY even incorporate it into my parenting style - on this subject and others.

Ad for the comment "what are you going to do when your 13 year old wants to explore crack?"... This just seems so far fetched to me. Some of my largest fears as a parent (especially to a sensory-seeking "balls-to-the-walls" explorer like my oldest) is that my child would become addicted to hard drugs or get involved in a "scene" that would hurt or kill. I have tried to design a family dynamic that would allow for intervention BEFORE things went so far, because we are all connected and collected and communicate openly. I am at a point with my child that most parents are NEVER part of; that little exploration of trying a cigarette for trying pot for the first times. Usually a kid sneaks and samples a puff off of a friend's smoke or one they find (or "bum" one), or they may try pot with older kids or young adults, putting themselves in potential danger (but not realizing it until they are adults and look back) in order to try it. They never tell their parents, and they don't get hooked on crack. My situation is rare in that my child has no reason to hide his curiosity and I have not pushed him away or reacted much at all (I have paused, though, acted, and then reflected.. and then did it again and again... but I have not REACTED). I certainly do not see how my child would get the message from me that smoking crack is a good idea. Heaven forbid that he ever get into a situation that serious, our connection and openness may be the difference between help (life) and total obliviousness (death) with his problem. So my answer: If my 13 year old was exploring crack he would get help, rehab, therapy, and support. That is very different than my nearly 13 year old coming to me curious about trying cigarettes and pot.


----------



## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AbundantLife* 
Some food for thought for those parents who condone marijuana smoking.

Teens and Marijuana

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Marijuana is the most widely used illicit drug in the United States. It tends to be the first illegal drug that teens use. Nearly one in ten teens ages 12 to 17 currently used marijuana in the United States. Nearly a quarter of eighth graders reported that they had already tried it. A 1997 survey of Michigan high-school students showed that 48 percent of students surveyed had tried marijuana and 28 percent were current users.

_"Adolescents are particularly at risk of adverse reactions from hallucinogen use as they enter puberty, a time of rapid physical and emotional changes. Hallucinogens are particularly dangerous because the effects are so unpredictable. They can cause violent behavior in some and suicidal tendencies in others. As memory, perception, and judgment are clouded under the influence, users are at risk of severe injuries, overdose, and death from drowning, burns, falls, and car accidents. Sometimes, hallucinogen use can uncover severe mental disorders, such as schizophrenia or severe depression." Texas Commission on Alcohol and Drug Abuse_

In my opinion, allowing your children to smoke pot is akin to child abuse.

Seriously, folks, when did parenting become a constant questioning of whether or not we were doing the right thing by our children? Having an open, honest relationship with your child does not mean we allow them to abuse their bodies.

all your post does IMO is prove the point that most kids WILL try pot, so this mama (and everyone who is or will be a parent of a teen) needs to remember that. it's not realistic to think they won't, even though not all do.

also, pot is not a hallucinogen. it's never made me hallucinate. i've done pot, i've done hallucinogens; it's not one. i don't get what that quote is supposed to have to do with pot.

and you don't "allow" your children to do drugs. they just, in many cases (though admittedly NOT all) do them. it's like sex in that way--i didn't ask my parents to do it, they didn't allow or disallow it. (IMO that would be creepy--it's my body, not theirs, regardless of my age.) i just did it. so the question isn't what this mama should "allow" but how she should respond to her children's actions.


----------



## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *readytobedone* 
also, pot is not a hallucinogen. it's never made me hallucinate. i've done pot, i've done hallucinogens; it's not one. i don't get what that quote is supposed to have to do with pot.

Precisely.

Cannabis has been known to be in a class by itself as far as what type of drug it is for several decades. People used to consider it a narcotic back in the 30s and 40s. Now we know it's definitely not one. It doesn't act like one. Nor does it act like a hallucinogen. That's why it usually merits its own chapter in books about the effects of different types of drugs.

love and peace.


----------



## E.V. Lowi (Sep 16, 2005)

Sorry,Abundant Life, but I wouldn't trust any info coming out of a commission in Texas!

I'm a bit biased on the subject; I live in a city that voted to make MJ use the lowest priority for police, lower than jaywalking even, which I believe is sensible. I'm also in a state that voted to legalized MJ for medicinal use, which I think is appropriate. I don't want my kids to use drug of any kind, including alcohol, recreationally or for any other reason, if possible. I hope that they will find healthier ways to entertain themselves, but supporting that endeavor began years ago. Once a child decides that they want to experience something, I don't think any kind of threats or punishment will change their course, at that point.

Why are some of you pps demonizing the op for trying to navigate this treacherous and chaotic phase know as the teenage years, in an AP way? I think your insulting comments are unsuppotive and don't belong on this natural parenting forum.

OP- I think that you deserve kudos for keeping an open dialog with your inquisitive son. Continue to impress upon him your concern about the addiction and health issues. Express your disapproval! Remind him of the legal considerations, and that it puts the whole household in jeopardy and in all fairness, he shouldn't put you in the position to go to jail, because of his friend and what the parents might do. But the fact is- it is your son's body and he can choose to put into it, whatever he wants. You won't be able to control him every minute of the day and night. It is his right to choose how he will care for his own health and well being. At this point, he should know that addictions run in the family, but it is his choice to decide if he will walk that path, or not.

One more thought and a question for harpies who posted to this thread- were you ever young or did having children give you amnesia about how it is to be 13? The teenage years are a time for truth seeking and wanting to experience everything for themselves, for that reason. Just because they try something once, does not mean that they will make a habit out of it. Keeping them safe through these years is the upmost consideration, IMHO and it sounds as if the op is doing everything in her power to insure this. I believe that she in on the right track and should be supported.


----------



## embers (Mar 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AbundantLife* 
I would not allow it in my home.

I'm all for the "no shame" method of parenting, especially when it comes to teens and pre-teens, but you have to draw the line on illegal activities.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *AbundantLife* 
deleted.


I respected your first post, and I took it into my mind while formulating my approach on this subject (and future subjects).

Your second post was unneeded, mean, pointless, and I am GLAD that you chose to delete it (no matter what your reason for deleting it was).

AbundantLife, as for your post about pot.... Texas Commission on Alcohol and Drug Abuse? 'Nuff said.


----------



## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I'm in a similar situation with my 16yo ds. He started telling me about trying pot when he was about 14. He says he doesn't do it anymore. I guess he just didn't like it much. I was the same way...interesting. Anyway, he does smoke cigarettes, which I struggle with. It's a nasty, smelly, expensive, unhealthy habit that can become an addiction. I was addicted to cigs until I was 29 years old. Actually, I guess I'm still addicted, just not using. Once an addict, always an addict, right? I talked to him about why I wish he would quit smoking but he says he knows all that stuff but he doesn't want to quit. I now let him smoke his cigs on my porch but not in the house for the health of the rest of us. He respects that. I have to respect his choices. I cannot control what he does. He's going to smoke whether I want him to or not and, like you said, I don't want him to have to sneak and be dishonest. I would not allow any illegal behavior in or around my home, though. That's my personal boundary. By the way, it's not illegal in my state for teenagers to be in possession of tobacco or smoke it. It's only illegal for them to buy it. I remember my main concern about him smoking around my home. My 3yo likes to go outside with him and his friends. Of course, they are out there to smoke so my 3yo sees it. In the car the other day he said he wanted to be just like big brother and, among other things, smoke cigs. Today he was pretending that his drinking straw was a cig.

I think if you feel comfortable with your decision to allow him to do those things at home, that's the right thing to do for your family. I would be concerned about the other child, though. That could get you and your family into trouble if the other parents found out their child was smoking MJ at your house and reported you for allowing it.


----------



## Tishie (Aug 16, 2005)

Quote:

Seriously, folks, when did parenting become a constant questioning of whether or not we were doing the right thing by our children?
I think at the beginning of time. Is parenting supposed to NOT be about trying to do the right thing?

Anyway, I am one of those who has honest and open discussions with my teen, and I know he's tried smoking ciggs, hasn't tried pot (yet). I encourage my kids to question the law and all authority. Pot being illegal is stupid and due to lobbyists and racism. I couldn't give a lesser poo about the illegality of marijuana (except to say that it should be legal).


----------



## AbundantLife (Jun 4, 2005)

embers,
You asked for advice. I have a 13 year old and a 17 year old. Neither of them has tried pot. The values we have given to our boys was drugs are not for us as a family. They have friends who have tried drugs and friends who have engaged in other risky behaviors, such as binge drinking, using firearms, and reckless driving.

If I found out that either of my kids were participating in behaviors that we have labeled as risky, I would seriously wonder where the communication and trust had broken down between us.

We are the parents and it is our job to protect our children and guide them to make healthy decisions. Sometimes we have to be the parents and set boundaries for our children. They need us to do this. I'm sorry if this is an unpopular opinion here on this forum, but in my experience, this is what I have found.
By no means are my boys angels. They have made mistakes and hopefully learned from them.


----------



## Tishie (Aug 16, 2005)

Quote:

If I found out that either of my kids were participating in behaviors that we have labeled as risky, I would seriously wonder where the communication and trust had broken down between us.
I totally understand this, and I'd do the same thing because secrets can make me question our communication also. However, I think we'd both be being too hard on ourselves. Sometimes kids just go off and do what they feel like doing, no matter how great the communication is. Sometimes kids like to do things their parents don't know about because it's a natural part of adolescence to do so.


----------



## embers (Mar 24, 2006)

AbundantLife,

What would your children do if they tried pot or smoking?

Would they tell you?

Would they be safe?

Would they fear your reaction, exclusion from the family, a sense of disownership and dishonor ("I raised my kids to have good morals to match mine...")... I mean, seriously here, you are barely stopping short of BLAMING me for my child's curiosity and insinuating it is because I have failed in my parenting up to this point. What would happen inside of your family if you discovered that your child was smoking and hiding it from you, lying to match your morals and say what you need to hear in order to accept them, and essentially living a dual life over trying a cigarette?

You said, "If I found out that either of my kids were participating in behaviors that we have labeled as risky, I would seriously wonder where the communication and trust had broken down between us." I would probably feel the same way, fir I FOUND OUT that my children were participating in behaviors that we labeled as risky. I do not think that my child coming to me and talking about his curiosity and interest is a communication and trust breakdown. I feel that it is the opposite.


----------



## <~*MamaRose*~> (Mar 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tishie* 
Sometimes kids just go off and do what they feel like doing, no matter how great the communication is. Sometimes kids like to do things their parents don't know about because it's a natural part of adolescence to do so.


----------



## AbundantLife (Jun 4, 2005)

Adolescence is a tricky time, for sure. Sure, they do go off and do what they want to do anyway... sometimes.

I don't know if they would tell me or not. So far, they have told me when they have done other things that they knew I wouldn't approve of.

I was not insinuating anything regarding your parenting. We all do things differently here (maybe some more than others).

Discipline is something we have instilled in our children from an early age. I just don't agree with the notion that a "no getting in trouble" philosophy is the best way to raise children. This is my opinion and this is the way we have raised our kids and it's worked for us. Somewhere along the way your kids thought it was OK at the age of 12 to try drugs and my didn't. If my disapproval stops my adolescent from making a bad decision, then I'm OK with that. I also agree with the the poster who said that our values "rub off" on our children.

I only know how I reacted when I found out my oldest had done something we didn't approve of. I talked to him about the risks of the behavior, shared my insights with him, and we discussed other choices he could have made.

embers, I also wanted to add that disapproval from a parent is not going to hinder our relationship. I don't know, maybe I'm just from a different generation than you are, but the possiblity of my parents finding out about a certain thing was enough to make me think twice about doing it. Oh, and my parents and I have a wonderful relationship. Hey, if you want to let your 12 year old smoke pot in his room, by all means, go for it.


----------



## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AbundantLife* 
Some food for thought for those parents who condone marijuana smoking.

Teens and Marijuana

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Marijuana is the most widely used illicit drug in the United States. It tends to be the first illegal drug that teens use. Nearly one in ten teens ages 12 to 17 currently used marijuana in the United States. Nearly a quarter of eighth graders reported that they had already tried it. A 1997 survey of Michigan high-school students showed that 48 percent of students surveyed had tried marijuana and 28 percent were current users.

_"Adolescents are particularly at risk of adverse reactions from hallucinogen use as they enter puberty, a time of rapid physical and emotional changes. Hallucinogens are particularly dangerous because the effects are so unpredictable. They can cause violent behavior in some and suicidal tendencies in others. As memory, perception, and judgment are clouded under the influence, users are at risk of severe injuries, overdose, and death from drowning, burns, falls, and car accidents. Sometimes, hallucinogen use can uncover severe mental disorders, such as schizophrenia or severe depression." Texas Commission on Alcohol and Drug Abuse_

Yeah, and?







Tell me something I do don't (re: teens smoking). If a kid has determined they will try MJ, they WILL try it.

Quote:

Having an open, honest relationship with your child does not mean we allow them to abuse their bodies.
I don't consider using MJ responsibly as a abusing my body.









In fact, before I had DD it helped with my chronic pain issues and prevented me from needing to take pharmaceutical narcotics, which I think are WAAAAAAAY worse for my body.


----------



## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *embers* 
I am confused and appalled at the posts bashing my child or myself. I do not see why someone would need to stick their head into this thread to simply say they are glad that their children do not know my son or myself. That is a painful thing to say, and the intolerance behind it is ugly.

Don't stress about it. Chances are that if someone was that intolerant and belligerent to me in real life, especially when I was seeking guidance and support, I wouldn't want to be their friend anyway.


----------



## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *embers* 
There is no "in trouble" in our home. There is no shaming, guilting, molding through fear, or really much conventional parenting methods. We are open, we are available, and we guide through love, information, modeling, etc.

There is no trouble in our home... I believe in no-yelling, talk-it-out parenting. So we agree there. I grew up like that, and I would love for my kids to know the same stability and respect that I have received. At the same time, at no point did I believe that smoking would be permitted in the house.

It doesn't mean you have failed as a parent, it simply means that your child senses that he can bend those bundouries with you, and if you are truly looking for an advice - I would consider counseling - so that he could talk, and you could figure out a way to set boundaries.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *embers* 
I made it clear that they can have things in their room and keep it private, and have given them each a "locker" box (safe) for their own use - no questions asked. I told them that I will honor their privacy as long as they honor the household and family; and that if I have a serious concern I will come to them, not behind their backs (modeling - I do NOT want this family to have to sneak and lie!)...

This is where we disagree tremendously...
I do not want my family to sneak in and lie, don't get me wrong... However,on one hand, you are saying you are hurt and surprised about the fact that people woudln't want their child hanging out with yours... On the other hand, how can you not see that it is NOT against your child?..

No one has attacked your child directly (unlike you have directly attacked other people on here with "screw yous" and "you suck".

They have no problems with your kid. They have problems with their own kids being in the environment where smoking pot at 13 is OK. I simply would not want another parent providing a "safe box" for my kid. How about giving a parent a call, and chatting and trying to resolve this together?

*No parent has a right to give OK to my child to smoke in their house*. Period. It is direspectful to the parents, and you ARE supporting that boy sneaking behind his parents' back (so much for open communication?).

Yes, he should grow up questioning authority, and standing up for what is right, but allowing smoking pot in your house is not what is going to make him a free-thinking individual, imho.

(I apologize if I have misinterpreted information, as far as allowing not your chlid to use your house as a place for "safe" smoking, that is just how I read the post).


----------



## TranscendentalMom (Jun 28, 2002)

I'm glad I read this post because I have some friends who smoke pot and it never occured to me that they might take this approach if my ds is over there when they are teenagers. I appreciate the OP taking an unconventional approach to this and I think she is being conscious about it but I still disagree with it. I think that you can allow exploration and natural consequences when the situation is not life-threatening, morally threatening or illegal. The reason I allow the freedoms that I do is that when its a big issue the answer is NO so I can be firm about it. I don't know why the OP assumes that if she tells her ds its not allowed that he's going to sneak it. I know some people who grew up with close connections and respect for their parents and if their parents said 'no' they didn't do it or if they did there was a little voice in the back of their heads that kept them from going too far. I knew many kids that felt this way growing up although I was not one of them. I didn't disregard my parents because they disallowed things, I disregarded them because I didn't have that strong of a bond and connection with them. They didn't live in my inner world. I hope to have a better relationship with my children. I do know people who don't allow this and their kids grew up and didn't try or tried it only once or twice it so it is unfair to assume that all kids who have rules will rebel. I have a friend who took the approach the OP is taking and it totally backfired. They ended up losing control of him completely and he left home at 16. He's 22 now and just starting to get his life back together after being in rehab for alcohol and MJ addiction. His mother says she literally feels ILL when she thinks that she "allowed" him to smoke pot.

I do not think that because I don't allow it a kid will never do it...but when they do it and realize the consequences that occur from doing it (whether it be getting arrested, losing your motivation in life etc etc) They will remember that I loved them enough to do whatever I could to keep them from it instead of standing by and doing nothing while they "explore."


----------



## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I think you can disapprove of a behavior without disapproving of the person. I also think there's no one size fits all answer to this situation. So much depends on the family and the individual personality of the child. As parents, we know our children's personalities better than anyone, hopefully. So, we can make the best decisions based on that knowledge. Nothing is foolproof, though, and no one can predict the outcome of any decision. I'm sure there are just as many parents who forbid this or that or disapproved of this or that or didn't allow this or that as there are parents who tried not to forbid anything kicking themselves wondering what they did wrong because their child did it anyway and vice versa.


----------



## BelovedK (Jun 7, 2005)

Hi,

several posts were temporarily removed from this thread for ua violations.

I have been really behind here, I promise I will very soon send all of the posts needing edits back to you to edit so I can restore them to the thread.

Keep the peace mamas


----------



## E.V. Lowi (Sep 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TranscendentalMom* 
I know many people who grew up with pot smoking parents and guess what? they became pot heads too!

That doesn't mean every child will.


----------



## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

I am no help. I only have a 4 yo. But I have been thinking about these issues ever since I found out I was pregnant. I have no doubt that the teen years are going to be much much harder than anything i have seen so far. And honestly? I have no idea how I would react to what the OP is asking. I do hope I have half as much grace and ability to not overreact as the OP. Thumbs up! Whether I actually agree with your final decision (if that time actually ever comes), you have put far more thought into this as most parents









And for those who say their kids had never done x, y, or z? I grew up in a pretty relaxed home. My parents trusted me a great deal and were always frank and open. Because of this, I also knew that their opinions on issues were typically far more conservative than mine were. It did not "rub off" on any level. And, even though I knew I would not get "punished", I still did not tell my parents about sex, drinking, and drug use. I knew it would kill them and I did not want to do that to them. I knew I was going to be fine. And I was. And did not feel like I should bug my parents with it. To this day, my mom has no idea I have ever done some of the things I experimented with in HS.


----------



## TranscendentalMom (Jun 28, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trmpetplaya* 

Cannabis has been known to be in a class by itself as far as what type of drug it is for several decades. People used to consider it a narcotic back in the 30s and 40s. Now we know it's definitely not one. It doesn't act like one. Nor does it act like a hallucinogen. That's why it usually merits its own chapter in books about the effects of different types of drugs.

Well the pot you smoke must be WAY different than what I smoked the last time I did it. I took one hit of a joint and had a full on halluncination. And it was home grown by the people who provided it - not laced with anything. IMO, the pot these days is stronger, way more intense and like a hallucinogen than it used to be. I took one hit of the stuff. There is NO WAY I would be cool with a child obtaining the high that I had. I'm a grown adult and it was intense for me to handle.


----------



## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I've never heard of anyone hallucinating on marijauna.


----------



## m9m9m9 (Jun 13, 2005)

The problem I see is there is no actual parenting going on in this situation.

Abdicating the responsibility for a choice that could have long term consequences on many levels - physical, emotional, legal,financial - to a 13 year old is not parenting.

The parent is the adult. They have a had a lifetime to gain experience and knowledge. There is no way a 13 year old can have the same breadth of experience that an adult has had. Setting boundaries and expectations is not shaming or making a kid be "in trouble".

Smoking pot to me is a rather benign issue. I wouldn't get that up in arms about it BUT I would not advocate, encourage or suggest its use to any 13 year old and if asked by that child I would flat out say "no you are not mature enough to appreciate the consequences that go with smoking pot"

-Maggie


----------



## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TranscendentalMom* 
Well the pot you smoke must be WAY different than what I smoked the last time I did it. I took one hit of a joint and had a full on halluncination. And it was home grown by the people who provided it - not laced with anything. IMO, the pot these days is stronger, way more intense and like a hallucinogen than it used to be. I took one hit of the stuff. There is NO WAY I would be cool with a child obtaining the high that I had. I'm a grown adult and it was intense for me to handle.

I don't smoke pot







My post that you quoted was purely book-learned knowledge so please refrain from making assumptions about my lifestyle. Thanks.

I don't know where you're getting your information from about the "stronger and way more intense" bit. It sounds an awful lot like the propaganda that's been floating around lately though. The strongest cannabis available in the US isn't even strong enough to be used as medicine in the countries where it's legal. You see, unlike most drugs, cannabis is actually *safer* when it's stronger because then it takes a lower dose and there is less exposure to smoke. It's also non-toxic so there's no risk of overdose due to strength.

Some people can react to cannabis as though it's a hallucinogen, but that doesn't mean that it is one. It's quite rare that someone hallucinates on cannabis and it doesn't function in the body the same way a drug that's classified as a hallucinogen does even when someone does have that reaction to it.

It's never been classified as a hallucinogen in any recent book I've ever read... can you cite anything that shows that cannabis *is* a hallucinogen other than your personal anecdotal evidence? I'd love to see it! (not snarky - I'm very curious about where you're getting your info)

love and peace.


----------



## TranscendentalMom (Jun 28, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trmpetplaya* 
I don't smoke pot anymore







My post that you quoted was purely book-learned knowledge so please refrain from making assumptions about my lifestyle. Thanks.

I don't know where you're getting your information from about the "stronger and way more intense" bit. It sounds an awful lot like the propaganda that's been floating around lately though. The strongest cannabis available in the US isn't even strong enough to be used as medicine in the countries where it's legal. You see, unlike most drugs, cannabis is actually *safer* when it's stronger because then it takes a lower dose and there is less exposure to smoke. It's also non-toxic so there's no risk of overdose due to strength.

Some people can react to cannabis as though it's a hallucinogen, but that doesn't mean that it is one. It's quite rare that someone hallucinates on cannabis and it doesn't function in the body the same way a drug that's classified as a hallucinogen does even when someone does have that reaction to it.

It's never been classified as a hallucinogen in any recent book I've ever read... can you cite anything that shows that cannabis *is* a hallucinogen other than your personal anecdotal evidence? I'd love to see it! (not snarky - I'm very curious about where you're getting your info)

love and peace.









IMO anecdotal evidence outweighs "book learned" evidence. If we are going by books, you will find evidence that says pot is extremely harmful, you will also find evidence that says it is good for you.

When I smoked pot in high school and college I was able to take several hits, have a buzz and still function relatively normally. My parents could only tell I was stoned once. I have only smoked pot twice in the last 10 years and both times were recent. Both times I had ONE HIT thinking I could just take a small toke and be a little stoned. One time I was at home and felt completely incapacitated, unable to speak and felt outside my body. I would try to move my arm and nothing would happen. It was some seriously strong stuff. The next time I was at a friends house. They were passing joints around and I thought "what the hell, it can't be as strong as that other stuff..." This time I had what I would call hallucination. I don't know if I was "technically" or scientifically hallucinating but it felt like the way I felt after I had taken LSD. Walls moving. The floor going wavy. Peoples voices slowing down. Time "freezing" occaisionally. I got in my car and could not drive. Called and woke up a friend to take me home. Had to take off all clothes when I got home because it felt like they were burning my skin. I could not go to sleep until I "came down."

There is also just the fact that both times I smoked recently I felt AWFUL the next day. Funky mood, somewhat depressed & irritable with my kids. I don't need a study to prove anything to me. Its like if you eat a bunch of crappy food, you feel lousy afterwards. I smoke pot, I feel depressed and out of it the next day.

I have talked to others who have had similar experiences after smoking pot. Whether or not they are technically hallucinating, the experience was close enough. I do not think a 12 year old is in any way prepared to have an experience like I did.


----------



## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TranscendentalMom* 
IMO anecdotal evidence outweighs "book learned" evidence. If we are going by books, you will find evidence that says pot is extremely harmful, you will also find evidence that says it is good for you. That is why book evidence doesn't mean as much to me as my experience.

Fascinating... considering you have no idea what books I've read







A good number of them are based off many many people's personal experiences which means much more to me than just *your* personal experience. I can definitely see how *your* experience would mean more to *you*, but honestly... the science just doesn't back you up







Nor does the anecdotal evidence from anyone I personally know and I live in a state where it's extremely easy to get very potent medicinal strains since it's legal for medicinal purposes here.

I've spent years reading both books that condone and condemn drug use and administered a scientific survey on drug use as well. I would like to know if your information comes from more than just your experience because I enjoy learning about drugs and their effects. Your experience is a very rare one which typically indicates over-dosage.

In all my studying I have never found any well-referenced book that said that cannabis was extremely harmful. Which book were you referring to?

love and peace.


----------



## TranscendentalMom (Jun 28, 2002)

Ok, there are plenty of STUDIES out there that say marijuana is harmful. I'm sure if I quote the studies from JAMA, NIDS, UW, New Scientist etc etc you will tell me why they are biased and wrong. But there are plenty out there that say it is harmful just as there are plenty that say that its not. I don't think either side is reliable as I think both sides have an agenda. It is hard to find accurate data on this subject as it is on the issue of vaccines. I also don't care whether you think my experience has any basis in science. It is what I experienced. I am biased due to my experience just as you are biased because you clearly have an agenda that you want to prove.

I know my experience is not everyone's as the people I smoked with didn't feel as incapacitated as I was. But I have told at least 10 pot smokers my experience and everyone of them agreed "yeah, pot is stronger these days than it used to be." I also had some friends who had a party recently and were smoking some strong pot and one of the guys at the party freaked out and wandered off into the woods. He ended up at the neighbors house telling them he was MLK jr. NO JOKE! Supposedly this has happened to him before....maybe it is something to do with body chemistry?


----------



## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

.


----------



## Naturalyst (Feb 3, 2007)

embers -Below, find a recent article concerning the particular vulnerability of children to nicotine addiction.

Cigarette companies have long known the importance of getting young children to smoke. It was harder to turn older teens and adults into smokers. The difference was assumed to reside in reasoning ability - older teens weighing future consequences in their decision making, younger teens living in the here-and-now. The article below adds another dimension to explain why young teens are "prime" for cigarette addiction.

"Cigarette girls" (beautiful teenage girls dressed scantily) handed out sample packs of cigarettes to teens at concerts and teen clubs, comic strip characters appeared in ads for Camel, Newport and Salem ran ads that showed groups of healthy, happy teens engaging in some sport and holding cigarettes. Cigarette companies were made to stop their direct advertising to teens. Some here may be too young to remember when they did.
_________________________

*THE NEW YORK TIMES*

July 31, 2007

*Nicotine Addiction Is Quick in Youths, Research Finds*

By NICHOLAS BAKALAR
A young cigarette smoker can begin to feel powerful desires for nicotine within two days of first inhaling, a new study has found, and about half of children who become addicted report symptoms of dependence by the time they are smoking only seven cigarettes a month.

"The importance of this study is that it contradicts what has been the accepted wisdom for many decades," said Dr. Joseph R. DiFranza, the lead author, "which is that people had to smoke at least five cigarettes a day over a long period of time to risk becoming addicted to nicotine. Now, we know that children can be addicted very quickly." Dr. DiFranza is a professor of family medicine at the University of Massachusetts.

The researchers recruited 1,246 sixth-grade volunteers in public schools in Massachusetts, interviewing them 11 times over a four-year period. They also took saliva samples to determine blood levels of nicotine and link them to addictive behavior. At some time during the four years almost a third of the children puffed on a cigarette, more than 17 percent inhaled, and about 7.5 percent used tobacco daily.

Since inhaling is required for sufficient drug delivery to cause dependence, the researchers limited their analysis, published in the July issue of The Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine, to the 217 inhalers in the group. Their average age when they first inhaled was 12.8 years. Of these, almost 60 percent had lost some control over their smoking, and 38 percent developed tobacco dependence as defined by the widely used diagnostic manual published by the World Health Organization.

In the 10 percent of children who were most susceptible, cravings began within two days of the first inhalation, and saliva analysis showed that being dependent did not require high blood levels of nicotine throughout the day. In some cases dependence could be diagnosed as early as 13 days after the first smoking episode.

For most inhalers, daily smoking was not required to cause withdrawal symptoms. More than 70 percent had cravings that were difficult to control before they were smoking every day. The biochemical analyses confirmed this: the symptoms of dependence began mostly at the lowest levels of nicotine intake.

"We know very little about the natural history of dependence," said Denise B. Kandel, a professor of sociomedical sciences at Columbia and a widely published addiction researcher who was not involved in the study. "This is really the first study that addresses the issue. Its strength is that DiFranza has followed a community sample of adolescents and interviewed them every three months, which is very difficult to do.

"On the other hand," she continued, "his definition of dependence is based on single symptoms, which may be open to question."

The definition of tobacco addiction is controversial, but the scientists used widely accepted criteria to diagnose dependence and a well-validated questionnaire to determine the extent to which smokers had allowed the habit to dictate their behavior.

The researchers write that it may seem implausible that intermittent smoking could provide relief from withdrawal symptoms. But in fact a single dose of nicotine has effects on the brain that can last as long as a month, and the nicotine obtained from just one or two puffs on a cigarette will occupy half of the brain's nicotinic receptors, the molecules specifically sought by nicotine in tobacco addiction.

The authors acknowledge that some of their data is retrospective and comes from self-reports, which can be unreliable, and that it is not possible to draw conclusions about other populations from their sample. In addition, they did not consider the roles of puberty, alcohol and other drug use. But the study has considerable strengths in measuring frequency and duration of smoking and in collecting exposure data by biochemical analysis as well as by repeated interviews.
"People used to think that long-term heavy use caused addiction," Dr. DiFranza said. "Now, we know it's the other way around: addiction is what causes long-term heavy use."


----------



## Naturalyst (Feb 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TranscendentalMom* 
... IMO, the pot these days is stronger, way more intense and like a hallucinogen than it used to be.

The pot is stronger. A University of Mississippi project has been keeping figures on THC strength since the mid 1970's, garnered from drug seizure samples. According to the latest data, the average amount of THC in seized samples has reached 8.5 percent. This compares to an average of just under 4 percent reported in 1983 and represents more than a doubling in the potency of the drug since that time (it was less than 1 percent in 1974).

And, hallucinations with THC are not "rare". It's not a very common reaction, but reporting of hallucinations has increased in line with the rise in THC levels.

The number of teens reporting MJ use has not change much in the last decade. But, the subset seeking drug rehab for addiction to MJ has increased dramatically. It begs the question, "Is the increase in THC levels leading to a greater percentiage of users getting Hooked?"


----------



## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
I knew I was going to be fine. And I was.

I have to jump in here...

As I said before - for every adult who did it regardless of their parents values, there is another adult who chose not to do it. When I was 17 I met a girl who asked me if I smoked or ever got drunk, and when I replied "no", she told me "oh, that's ok, you'll experience it soon, everyone goes through it!".

Um, no. NOT EVERYONE goes through it. And I am certain that if my parenting skills are anywhere near my parents' - they will listen to my advice just like I listened to them.

Another point I wanted to make, is that teenagers in particular have the idea of invincibility, they have a belief that "this could never happen to me". Just like you are describing. And they will be fine in many case, even when they engage in dangerous behavior (be it smoking or something else). However, when looking at facts, they are much mroe likely "to be fine" if they stay away from "those things". And I would like to create an enviroment in this house where they don't just blindly follow the rules in this house, but truly understand where those rules are coming from.


----------



## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oriole* 
I have to jump in here...

As I said before - for every adult who did it regardless of their parents values, there is another adult who chose not to do it. When I was 17 I met a girl who asked me if I smoked or ever got drunk, and when I replied "no", she told me "oh, that's ok, you'll experience it soon, everyone goes through it!".

Um, no. NOT EVERYONE goes through it. And I am certain that if my parenting skills are anywhere near my parents' - they will listen to my advice just like I listened to them.

Another point I wanted to make, is that teenagers in particular have the idea of invincibility, they have a belief that "this could never happen to me". Just like you are describing. And they will be fine in many case, even when they engage in dangerous behavior (be it smoking or something else). However, when looking at facts, they are much mroe likely "to be fine" if they stay away from "those things". And I would like to create an enviroment in this house where they don't just blindly follow the rules in this house, but truly understand where those rules are coming from.

That was not my point. I did listen to my parents and respected their opinion greatly. I knew they had more experience than I did. I listened to their concerns and read the books they suggested. The thing is, I also had a mind and was able to look at the same info, read the same books, consider the same concerns and come up with a different conclusion. Now I will admit, I was not 13 yo when i took it upon myself to go in a different direction. I was a pretty immature 13 yo and felt I still needed to rely on my parents and their opinions at that age. But it was not long after that I did grow into the critical thinking skills that have remained largely unchanged ever since. I respected my parents opinions and took them into consideration but also disagreed. I do not think that "better parenting" would have changed things. In fact, I am grateful that they did not try to force their opinions on me, because as has been said here again and again, I would have done it anyway and likely in a much less safe or more dramatic way in opposition.

I do not buy that there is some magic age when children/teens suddenly should be allowed to make their own decisions. I know 40 yos that have less critical thinking skills than your average 12 yo. Some children will land on the same side of issues as their parents. Of course, their parents influence them. So did mine. Greatly. But whether they will do exactly as their parents wish they would really has nothing to do with "quality parenting", whatever that is.

Also, while I do get the idea that teens are suppose to be reckless and feel invincible, that also just does not hold true for all teens. I believe that open communication about risks, the willingness for parents to help if need be, and the chance for teens to make their own decisions while still under the safety net of the home can grow a responsible adult. I can tell you that I did not feel "invisible". I was a very careful teen. I did side with my parents on the dangers of drunk driving, unprotected sex, etc...... I chose not to tell them what i was up to, not because I thought they would overreact ,but I thought it would make them feel bad. I felt I had a handle on things and I did. If I got into a place where I felt I was in "trouble" or needed help, I would not have hesitated to come to them.

What do you suggest the OP do? Freak out and tell them NO NO NO? Are you suggesting that her parenting must be flawed for her child to talk to her about it? If so, I wholeheartedly disagree. It would be a great thing if every child felt they could bounce their thoughts off of their parents. Most kids will do something illegal before they leave the house. Even the "really good" kids with "good" parents. Most will hide this from their parents. How does that help?

I believe it is very dangerous thinking to assume that if a parent is a "good parent" a child will never do anything the parents does not want them to. This does not leave any room for deciding what the parent will do if the "unthinkable" happens and their kid wants to talk about the joint they already smoked.


----------



## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I wonder if part of the reason for such a stronger reaction to MJ now than in college was because of the time passed not doing it. The first alcoholic drink I had after being pg hit me hard. I felt drunk after just one drink. Before that I could have 3 drinks before I felt drunk. They have new flavors for cigs now. May not be directly advertising to kids but making products that appeal to them, peppermint and pineapple. I tried one and it made me feel tingly and lightheaded. I stod up and couldn't walk straight and that was just a regular cig. I felt like I had smoked an illicit drug. Was that because it's been years since I had one or are they somehow more potent?


----------



## E.V. Lowi (Sep 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
What do you suggest the OP do? Freak out and tell them NO NO NO? Are you suggesting that her parenting must be flawed for her child to talk to her about it? If so, I wholeheartedly disagree. It would be a great thing if every child felt they could bounce their thoughts off of their parents. Most kids will do something illegal before they leave the house. Even the "really good" kids with "good" parents. Most will hide this from their parents. How does that help?

I believe it is very dangerous thinking to assume that if a parent is a "good parent" a child will never do anything the parents does not want them to. This does not leave any room for deciding what the parent will do if the "unthinkable" happens and their kid wants to talk about the joint they already smoked.

I agree! There is so much more pressure for kids to use, these days. All forms of media are saturated with messages portraying alcohol and drug use as fun, cool and exciting, and sobriety as dull and unhip. Most kids are aware that their parents used in the past and don't buy into the philosophy of "Do as I say, not as I do" that many parents put out there for their kids. Glomming MJ together with drugs like heroin, cocaine and meth just makes you look foolish, like you don't know the score or are being deceitful, because they know damn well that millions of people use it with little harmful effect, compared to narcotics or even cigarettes and alcohol.

When a child decides to use drugs, all one's notions of "good" parenting go out the window. Lots of kids from good families decide to try all kinds of things that their parents forbid them to. Putting one's self up on the high horse about your special, extra good parenting abilities just sets you up for a fall and is laughable, really. I find the shrill "Dr. Laura" impressions worthless and annoying.


----------



## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
What do you suggest the OP do? Freak out and tell them NO NO NO? Are you suggesting that her parenting must be flawed for her child to talk to her about it?

I believe it is very dangerous thinking to assume that if a parent is a "good parent" a child will never do anything the parents does not want them to.

I have suggested it already, but I don't mind repeating...

1. I do not believe OP failed as a parent.
2. I think setting boundaries is part of parenting.
3. If there is something I don't know how to do, but something I believe in as a parent, I would seek counseling, so that I can maintain open communication with my child, AND set boundaries at the same time.


----------



## jennas2 (Sep 15, 2002)

Interesting thread. I think you have handled it beautifully so far. On top of the information you have already provided to your ds regarding addiction and other health effects, some other questions along the lines of life goals, self-image, etc... might be appropriate. You might want to include some of the latest research about increased incidence of schizophrenia in folks who have smoked weed, if you haven't already.

I would ask what your ds's goal are? Have him put some serious thought into his answer. Given the effects of MJ, will smoking help him attain his goals?

I haven't walked a mile in your shoes yet...







When faced with the situation I'm not entirely sure how I would go about it. Perhaps you could ask him what is so appealing about MJ? Is it observing older pot smoking teens and the culture that accompanies it? Is it the culture or the weed? The culture can exist without the weed.

Sure MJ is a great escape from emotional pain, but it's not healthy (preaching the choir here







)And the concern would be that escaping would more than likely drive further use. Getting him engaged in a group than is not drug using would be a great idea. The idea is keep him busy with activities there's no time to smoke weed.


----------



## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jennas2* 
Getting him engaged in a group than is not drug using would be a great idea. The idea is keep him busy with activities there's no time to smoke weed.

I think that's a great advice.


----------



## Tishie (Aug 16, 2005)

There's always time to smoke weed!


----------



## embers (Mar 24, 2006)

But that does not make it a good idea.

An adult that can take responsibility for all facets of their choice is one thing. A child that may put himself in risk through the "scene", legally (and get his family in trouble, too), expose himself to things that may seriously (or even slightly, depending on the argument) affect his growth and development... is another thing entirely.

If he is going to do it, he _may_ do it no matter what. Since he has not done it yet, there is still time and opportunity (thank GOODNESS for the healthy and open communication my children have with me, otherwise I would not get this chance) to keep the dialog open and to dissuade him from trying it RIGHT NOW. I know that no amount of activities or interests or other things to keep a person busy will keep them from having time to smoke pot) or do anything else that they really want to do)... but those activities may take his interests elsewhere for a while... more "while" for him to learn more about the cons of smoking and the weight of his choice to experiment with it... and more "while" for him to make friends with people focused on martial arts, rock climbing, etc (and their opinions - *those of peers* - on the health concerns behind smoking may make an impact on him, too).

It has been said that "there is a time and place for everything". If as an adult my son chooses to experiment with any type of drug, I will at least know that I have given him good information, serious perspective and content for thought, and that he is not bumbling in blindly. If as a child he does experiment with any type of substance, he will have good information, serious perspective and content for thought... and a fearless relationship with his parents that will allow him to get help if he needs it.

I am still on the fence about a lot of things that have been said here and a lot of things I have said to my child. This is a work in progress. Thanks for the input.


----------



## Tishie (Aug 16, 2005)

This is more anecdotal evidence, but in 34 years of living, I've never known anyone to get into legal trouble related to weed. I've known plenty of people (including my self way back when) to get into trouble related to alcohol.

MJ is illegal, but you are unlikely to do anything illegal while you're doing it. Probably less likely than if you don't smoke anything.


----------



## embers (Mar 24, 2006)

The legal trouble I am concerned about is not based on intoxication and actions, etc. It is the fact that pot is illegal, the concerning person is a minor, and he has a friend also interested. I do not want my child to get into legal trouble, I do not want the custody of my four children to be threatened, I do not want to go to jail for facilitating or allowing. These are reasonable concerns. I am an outlaw, I am an anarchist; for these reason I am AWARE and WARY of laws because I rather enjoy "flying under the radar". I am considerate about the laws which I chose to disregard in and which manner I chose to do so. If the question was should my husband or myself smoke pot, this would be a different matter (and not in this part of the forum!), but the legal concern would still be high because the ramifications can affect my children. As a momma, my worst fears include legal intervention in my family concerning my children and my parenting. If we did not have kids and/or if we were not already considerate outlaws, I may feel different about the legal risk (FOR MY FAMILY - not judging others) involved with pot. But I am concerned. I am concerned about messed up laws, a messed up government, and a messed up system to support it.... not concerned especially about the legal trouble behind someone smoking pot and then doing something dumb. In that sense, alcohol is much more frightening to me. I am GLAD that my children have shown no interest in drinking... not to say that I am happy that there has been interest in smoking.


----------



## jennas2 (Sep 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *embers* 
But that does not make it a good idea.

An adult that can take responsibility for all facets of their choice is one thing. A child that may put himself in risk through the "scene", legally (and get his family in trouble, too), expose himself to things that may seriously (or even slightly, depending on the argument) affect his growth and development... is another thing entirely.

If he is going to do it, he _may_ do it no matter what. Since he has not done it yet, there is still time and opportunity (thank GOODNESS for the healthy and open communication my children have with me, otherwise I would not get this chance) to keep the dialog open and to dissuade him from trying it RIGHT NOW. I know that no amount of activities or interests or other things to keep a person busy will keep them from having time to smoke pot) or do anything else that they really want to do)... but those activities may take his interests elsewhere for a while... more "while" for him to learn more about the cons of smoking and the weight of his choice to experiment with it... and more "while" for him to make friends with people focused on martial arts, rock climbing, etc (and their opinions - *those of peers* - on the health concerns behind smoking may make an impact on him, too).


Yup, exactly my thoughts. Get him in an environment beyond the fabulous one he's already in and among peers and adults who think smoking MJ, cigs, drinking=not a great choice. Give him time for is brain to mature. A whole lot of brain growth happens in the teen years and well into the early twenties. Hell, I wouldn't be superised if the brain continues to mature beyond 25 yrs. which is what the latest research shows.

All pre-teens and teens are impressionable, some just have better impulse control, the ability to look beyond immediate gratification and are able to see the bigger picture of their choices down the road. Surrounding him around with folks whom he respects who share your same values goes a long way. Also minimizing opportunities where smoking weed can happen. The mere fact that he feels safe enough to come to you with these questions and not get defensive, shows a remarkable connection and that your parenting is right on track.

Ok, starting to ramble a bit. Plus, I'm sure these are thoughts that have already swirled around in your head.


----------



## jennas2 (Sep 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tishie* 
There's always time to smoke weed!









LOL!







True, true. However, if you are fully engaged in various constructive activities be it skating, snowboarding, martial arts, team sports, chess etc... and majority if not all of your peer base and adults in your life are not down with MJ, drinking etc... The chances of using are minimized.


----------



## jennas2 (Sep 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *embers* 

I am still on the fence about a lot of things that have been said here and a lot of things I have said to my child. This is a work in progress. Thanks for the input.

Never underestimate the influence parents, respected adults and peers.


----------



## pumpkinyum (Mar 27, 2007)

I have read it all...allowing a 13 year old KID to become addicted to cigs, and let him play with a drug.







: Unbelievably SAD. Why, why, do parents feel the need to no longer parent, but to just be a friend? Why are parents so afraid of saying No.


----------



## Susie1 (Mar 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinyum* 
I have read it all...allowing a 13 year old KID to become addicted to cigs, and let him play with a drug.







: Unbelievably SAD. Why, why, do parents feel the need to no longer parent, but to just be a friend? Why are parents so afraid of saying No.

The concept of "allowing" anyone to do anything is an illusion. Control over others is an illusion. I think the OP recognizes this and has chosen a logical position. Just because a parent posts a rule against something and does not "allow" it does not mean a teen will abide by said rule. OP has already stated her opinion and preference. I think she probably does this on a regular basis. Parent saying no to teen has little to do with teen's final decision. I am sure teens take into consideration their parent's preferences, but ultimately -- just saying no is not a very effective strategy compared with sharing preferences, information and respect for autonomy.

People of all ages will do what they want to do and the best possible choice a a parent can make is to be fair, honest, provide information and safety. It does not in anyway equate "condoning" or even agreement. The idea of keeping kids so busy they will not think about experimenting is another illusion. Very busy and productive people still find time to relax and smoke some mj or have a drink. Such indulgences are in no way comparable to smoking crack or slamming heroine. We need to keep it real. Humans have receptors for marijuana much like cats have receptors for catnip. It should never have been outlawed.

Does anyone even consider the serious dangers of fast food and how much more dangerous this is? Could you imagine someone throwing you in jail or ticketing you for over-indulging in MacDonald's? The red-eyes do not give you away, just the diabetes and bulging waistline. Scary thought, isn't it? We really are not too far away from living in a police state imo.

Our culture tends to exist in a very punish/reward paradigm and it is quite challenging to think outside this box, but imo-- this is where you will find the best way to solve problems and live with others.


----------



## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinyum* 
I have read it all...allowing a 13 year old KID to become addicted to cigs, and let him play with a drug.







: Unbelievably SAD. Why, why, do parents feel the need to no longer parent, but to just be a friend? Why are parents so afraid of saying No.

Really? The OP is all for having her child addicted to nicotine and "playing" with drugs?

Where are the suggestions?


----------



## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Susie1* 
The concept of "allowing" anyone to do anything is an illusion. Control over others is an illusion. I think the OP recognizes this and has chosen a logical position. Just because a parent posts a rule against something and does not "allow" it does not mean a teen will abide by said rule.

Absolutely. I had a great relationship with my parents, but that didn't influence my wanting to do things that they didn't approve of (tattoos, moving out, school issues, etc).

I'm a little humored by the "we have boundaries so my children will respect me" notion. (Obviously not verbatim, but the tone is there...).

Quote:

Does anyone even consider the serious dangers of fast food and how much more dangerous this is? Could you imagine someone throwing you in jail or ticketing you for over-indulging in MacDonald's? The red-eyes do not give you away, just the diabetes and bulging waistline. Scary thought, isn't it? We really are not too far away from living in a police state imo.

Our culture tends to exist in a very punish/reward paradigm and it is quite challenging to think outside this box, but imo-- this is where you will find the best way to solve problems and live with others.
You took the thoughts right out of my head. Yeah, MJ is illegal, but there are far worse substances out there that ARE legal, and to me, that is down right frightening!!


----------



## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jennas2* 
You might want to include some of the latest research about increased incidence of schizophrenia in folks who have smoked weed

Smoking MJ now causes schizophrenia?







: Please, do share this latest "research"!!

Quote:

Sure MJ is a great escape from emotional pain, but it's not healthy (preaching the choir here







)And the concern would be that escaping would more than likely drive further use.
I'm always curious to hear why a person automatically assumes one's appeal to any substance, MJ or not, is due to some repressed need to drown emotional issues.

For me? I like it! That's it. I'm also fat and like food. No, I'm not an emotional eater, I just like the _taste_ of food. That's it. Sometimes we create more problems by over analyzing. I love the smell of good herb. I like the taste of it, and even though you don't get "high" when you make tea, I still drink it. This, to me, is the difference between substance _abuse_, and substance USE. There is a difference. Not all teenagers are abusing substances. But as evidenced by the misinformation in this thread, one has to know enough about the substance to tell the difference.


----------



## embers (Mar 24, 2006)

I have heard of people that have schizophrenia, bi-polar, and a few other disorders having a sudden onset after smoking pot for a while. The pot did not create the disorders (they were already there), but it did uncover them for the user.

Though it may or may not affect this conversation, but my son is adopted. He has experienced some trauma in his life. He also shows many attributes of ADHD. It is possible that he could use pot as a way to process pain or to use as a crutch or something. Or it is possible that he could try it and just like getting giggly and stuff with his friends. He may like the calming effects. He may like that it gives him the munchies (he has a low appitite and it bothers him often, especially when he feels low energy and knows its because he should eat, but just does not FEEL like eating). He could self-medicate. He could become addicted. It could uncover schizophrenia. He could really like to just zone out on video games and read. He may not like it at all. It could give him a head ache. I do not know. I would like to keep no knowing, because I would like for him to not smoke pot.

I have not *allowed* him to become addicted to cigs nor have I let him play with drugs. I have had some really great conversations, I have lots a lot of sleep, I have asked for suggestions on how to do things differently, and I have not shut the door on any subject or possible way to handle it. Shame on me for not being a good parent







: I am not being just a friend to my son. But I do not think that parents need to be unfriendly or unfriendlike. I think that the trend in our culture to justify being disconnected from our children by feeling like we are hurting them by also being their friend is really sad.

Quote:

However, if you are fully engaged in various constructive activities be it skating, snowboarding, martial arts, team sports, chess etc... and majority if not all of your peer base and adults in your life are not down with MJ, drinking etc... The chances of using are minimized.
This makes sense to me. Even if he does still try pot, having other interests and activities is great, and the pot may be a passing fancy, but the martial arts and chess team may last well through his adulthood.

My son's interest with pot seems to be with "hippie culture", Oregon subculture, self-exploration, etc. "Trying on hats" about what kind of teen he is and want to be. My husband is getting our son together with some of the people through the SCA tonight that both do and do not smoke, for conversations on why, the ups and downs in their personal lives, how it has affected them, etc (especially since so many ARE that cool, self-exploring, active hippie type that DON'T smoke... and a few that do are the ones that would likely discourage it and talk about some of the realities - ie. use it for pain management, have tried to quit and can't, have been arrested, etc).

I have been talking to my son at length about the level of responsibility and things he needs to consider when thinking of experimenting with pot. There is so much more to it than spending $10 at the skatepark to some kid with pot and then grabbing a pop can. I have discussed the legal side, the ethical sides that I can see with buying it, getting other people involved, the risks in getting caught on the effect on the family, knowing where the pot is coming from, getting involved in a "scene", etc. Meanwhile, I am getting the boys involved with a peaceful anarchy group and Food not Bombs (for that "cool" hippie crowd through volunteering and service work in a public place). I want to get them into a bike repair and riding group, rock climbing, concerts and music with a focus on learning to PLAY music, too (we wrote on several instruments last night on Craigslist), etc. They are also starting to show an interest in martial arts - something that I intend to support completely and enthusiastically. Unlike some of the posters on MDC, I am not anti-exploration... especially in a thoughtful and academic way (which is what it is right now). This can be a wonderful time in a teen's life; it seems like our culture is scared of our older children and sees teens (especially boys) as "bad". I, on the other hand, am just glad that the kids have allowed me to be part of this process (as opposed to thinking they are skating and drinking soda and get a call from the police because some older kids was pulled over, my kids were with them, and they are drinking and smoking).


----------



## embers (Mar 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinyum* 
I have read it all...allowing a 13 year old KID to become addicted to cigs, and let him play with a drug.







: Unbelievably SAD. Why, why, do parents feel the need to no longer parent, but to just be a friend? Why are parents so afraid of saying No.

So, what would you do if your 13 year old KID came to you openly about his interest in trying cigarettes and pot? Would you ground him? Spank him? Send him to boarding school? Or would you give him information on why these things are not a good idea, try to listen to why he is interested in offer alternatives, talk about safety, ask him to not go sneaking and lying if he is just going to go and do it anyway, loose some sleep and get some extra wrinkles, and ask around to other people with teens and almost teens for suggestions and advise?

Please, do tell. I promise I wont accidentally become your friend... you know, since friendship is so dangerous to parenting, I would hate to accidentally contribute.


----------



## enkmom (Aug 30, 2004)

My kids would laugh in your face if you described me as being their "friend", and I have said no plenty of times in my mothering career. If wishing made it so, I would be the greatest parent on the face of the earth! I used to pontificate on message boards about the "right" way to parent, because my children never did anything wrong. Then reality (in the form of two teenagers) hit me right between the eyes. My perfect daughter was out drinking about two weeks ago, (at least she didn't drive, thank God), and I know my son has been around drinking and drugs (I don't think he participated, but I certainly wouldn't swear to it). I did everything I thought needed to be done, and alcohol/drugs found us anyway.

Embers, I have no wonderful words of advice, but I wanted to offer a hug from someone who has walked in your shoes.


----------



## E.V. Lowi (Sep 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *enkmom* 
My kids would laugh in your face if you described me as being their "friend", and I have said no plenty of times in my mothering career. If wishing made it so, I would be the greatest parent on the face of the earth! I used to pontificate on message boards about the "right" way to parent, because my children never did anything wrong. Then reality (in the form of two teenagers) hit me right between the eyes. My perfect daughter was out drinking about two weeks ago, (at least she didn't drive, thank God), and I know my son has been around drinking and drugs (I don't think he participated, but I certainly wouldn't swear to it). I did everything I thought needed to be done, and alcohol/drugs found us anyway.

Embers, I have no wonderful words of advice, but I wanted to offer a hug from someone who has walked in your shoes.









Many parents of teenagers and adult children would agree with you.


----------



## jennas2 (Sep 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Smoking MJ now causes schizophrenia?







: Please, do share this latest "research"!!

I'm always curious to hear why a person automatically assumes one's appeal to any substance, MJ or not, is due to some repressed need to drown emotional issues.

For me? I like it! That's it. I'm also fat and like food. No, I'm not an emotional eater, I just like the _taste_ of food. That's it. Sometimes we create more problems by over analyzing. I love the smell of good herb. I like the taste of it, and even though you don't get "high" when you make tea, I still drink it. This, to me, is the difference between substance _abuse_, and substance USE. There is a difference. Not all teenagers are abusing substances. But as evidenced by the misinformation in this thread, one has to know enough about the substance to tell the difference.

It's been known for a long time that MJ users can become psychotic while using, the drug can also bring out mental illness already present. What some research is showing now is the there is increased incidence of schizophrenia in MJ users later in life. Here's one study discussing the link.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?ali...modsrc=reuters

As far as "drowning issues" in this particular situation there is a high likely hood of that happening.

I think it's great for those folks who truly follow a everything in moderation philosophy and teens who are capable of doing so is even better. If an adult chooses to alter their brain chemistry recreationally than go for the gold. A teen and/or younger child is a different scenario imo and it is not so cut and dried.

Back to the original topic, I think the OP has handled the situation beautifully and when my children hit their teen years, I only hope they feel comfortable enough to come to me with heavy duty questions.


----------



## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Delurking to get all philosophical on y'all:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jennas2* 
It's been known for a long time that MJ users can become psychotic while using, the drug can also bring out mental illness already present. What some research is showing now is the there is increased incidence of schizophrenia in MJ users later in life. Here's one study discussing the link.

I'm not looking for an answer to this ('cause it's probably unanswerable). This is just something that studies like this always make me wonder:

Does using drugs make people more likely to have mental disorders or are people with mental disorders more likely to use drugs? It could easily be a bit of both or even neither.... Correlation /= Causation.








, Embers. My only concern with your way of handling this situation is your son's friend. IMO, you certainly haven't deserved the comments that some pp's have made









love and peace.


----------



## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trmpetplaya* 

Does using drugs make people more likely to have mental disorders or are people with mental disorders more likely to use drugs? It could easily be a bit of both or even neither.... Correlation /= Causation.

Exactly. I think we could all put our own spin on such research in order to prove our point.


----------



## jennas2 (Sep 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trmpetplaya* 
Delurking to get all philosophical on y'all:

I'm not looking for an answer to this ('cause it's probably unanswerable). This is just something that studies like this always make me wonder:

Does using drugs make people more likely to have mental disorders or are people with mental disorders more likely to use drugs? It could easily be a bit of both or even neither.... Correlation /= Causation.








, Embers. My only concern with your way of handling this situation is your son's friend. IMO, you certainly haven't deserved the comments that some pp's have made









love and peace.









Oh yes, good ole' philosophy the ultimate in mind masturbation.


----------



## forthebest (Jun 19, 2006)

embers, I think you are doing a great job communicating with your ds. I would be happy for any of my dc to spend time with yours.I would be worried tho about the other child, who probably is glad to have found people like you especially if,like you say his mom is not interested in what he is doing, just in case someone makes a phonecall u'know. I was pally with a lot of older folk as a teen and they were all good people, who some did drugs, but all knew what I was going through and talked sense to me.I smoked pot from age 13 and still do sometimes, unfortunately I've been a smoker of tobacco since age 9 and have to stop. It's very addictive, you can help your son to not fall down that trap,, now. Super-gluing your lungs to your ribs with tar is just wrong.I conquered alcohol tho and simply do not require it now. I was fostered at 6 and my foster mother did not have the skills or knowledge that embers has imo to deal with a teen growing up and experimenting. She booted me out after 10 years and I was expelled from school, tho was never found with any drugs on me, I was made an example of being the care kid who could be disposed of, other kids were actually doing drugs( not just mj) in school and none of them got booted out or made homeless. My foster mother had threatened to boot me out for years cos I wasn't what she wanted,I was turning out 'like my mother' who I'd never met, she wanted me to go to uni so she could be proud of her achievements to the neighbours. She couldn't 'cope' with me and I was blamed for everything cos I liked music, pierced my ears against her wishes( at age 12) wore clothes she didn't like( I had to sneak into those too) tried drink, pot and sex, like most other kids I knew. She spread word that I was a 'junkie'. Ironically she was addicted to sleeping pills from the docs and heavy tranqs, zombie drugs,(house full of bottles, none of which I ever touched!) she deteriorated over the years, was always winding me up, trying to bring me out of my shell( I was reserved and inner as a child but independant and could have made art school had I been supported) she was bad tempered, very drowsy, constantly irritable and irrational.
So she got rid of her real problem, me, and I was banned by social workers and education authority from getting to school or college, their exact words were ' you've made your bed, lie in it'. I was 15. I was constantly homeless after that, no money, and I'd been taken away from all my friends and a stable way of life after a rough start as a young child, I have serious rejection issues still and have been clinically depressed, I had no security and started binge-drinking heavily till blackout, mj was much kinder. I would hitch all over, getting lifts from 40 yr old men who would take advantage of me and I would get someplace to stay for a night.
My dc will never have to put up with that cos they tried something out, thrown on the scrapheap at 15 in thatchers britain was no fun, plenty cheap booze tho to keep you warm at night. I strive to communicate with my dc. My eldest dd is 15 and has a lot of personal freedom, she has drunk alcohol and she has drunk it once in our house with mates over while I was there. They didn't finish it and watched a dvd. Her mates are 17 and get into pubs.I have known some of her mates since they were 2 yrs old and care for them as I would my own. My dd has said that having a good communication has made trying stuff out not so taboo, even making actual substances less of an attraction in the first place,cos it's not forbidden,( not forbidden is not the same as condoning)she has been very good at telling me what she gets up to and I have had to learn that she will make choices that I would not make for her. At least we can talk and she knows her safety and well-being are paramount to me and hopefully to her.
I tell my dc I don't want them to drink, do drugs etc, not very thoughtful, but I don't cos I've seen and lived with the crap that is involved when misuse is evident, from other's too, being a victim of domestic violence for years from alcoholics. I've been a single mum for years now and we have a life. Moderation, knowledge and sensible approaches to any substance is vital whether it's alcohol, mj, drugs in general, chocolate, gambling, junk food, relationships etc. I would deffo dissuade my kids from tobacco, it's a killer, there are healthier ways to imbibe mj, brownies for ex. I can't fathom the approach that if the parent say's 'dont do it' the child will just follow, reality check. As for breaking laws erm, mj should be legal imo, alcohol is a far more destructive drug and misused on a far wider scale but hey it's legal so it's ok. To encourage your child to not get addicted to tobacco I suggest a healthy body and mind as something to take good care of and physical activities to maintain that, my dc see me smoking outside day and night and are desperate for me to stop as I am,especially as the thought of my dc having no-one if something happens to me is too much to bear so I have to break this. I will be keeping a good eye on my dc, now, and in the future to enable them to have healthy lives despite the peer pressure around to get into drugs and booze, not everybody can limit their use if they are going to try stuff but it's not impossible with some decent mentoring available and plenty support.


----------



## Irish (Jun 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *embers* 
I have heard of people that have schizophrenia, bi-polar, and a few other disorders having a sudden onset after smoking pot for a while. The pot did not create the disorders (they were already there), but it did uncover them for the user.

Though it may or may not affect this conversation, but my son is adopted. He has experienced some trauma in his life. He also shows many attributes of ADHD. It is possible that he could use pot as a way to process pain or to use as a crutch or something. Or it is possible that he could try it and just like getting giggly and stuff with his friends. He may like the calming effects. He may like that it gives him the munchies (he has a low appitite and it bothers him often, especially when he feels low energy and knows its because he should eat, but just does not FEEL like eating). He could self-medicate. He could become addicted. It could uncover schizophrenia. He could really like to just zone out on video games and read. He may not like it at all. It could give him a head ache. I do not know. I would like to keep no knowing, because I would like for him to not smoke pot.

I have not *allowed* him to become addicted to cigs nor have I let him play with drugs. I have had some really great conversations, I have lots a lot of sleep, I have asked for suggestions on how to do things differently, and I have not shut the door on any subject or possible way to handle it. Shame on me for not being a good parent







: I am not being just a friend to my son. But I do not think that parents need to be unfriendly or unfriendlike. I think that the trend in our culture to justify being disconnected from our children by feeling like we are hurting them by also being their friend is really sad.

This makes sense to me. Even if he does still try pot, having other interests and activities is great, and the pot may be a passing fancy, but the martial arts and chess team may last well through his adulthood.

My son's interest with pot seems to be with "hippie culture", Oregon subculture, self-exploration, etc. "Trying on hats" about what kind of teen he is and want to be. My husband is getting our son together with some of the people through the SCA tonight that both do and do not smoke, for conversations on why, the ups and downs in their personal lives, how it has affected them, etc (especially since so many ARE that cool, self-exploring, active hippie type that DON'T smoke... and a few that do are the ones that would likely discourage it and talk about some of the realities - ie. use it for pain management, have tried to quit and can't, have been arrested, etc).

I have been talking to my son at length about the level of responsibility and things he needs to consider when thinking of experimenting with pot. There is so much more to it than spending $10 at the skatepark to some kid with pot and then grabbing a pop can. I have discussed the legal side, the ethical sides that I can see with buying it, getting other people involved, the risks in getting caught on the effect on the family, knowing where the pot is coming from, getting involved in a "scene", etc. Meanwhile, I am getting the boys involved with a peaceful anarchy group and Food not Bombs (for that "cool" hippie crowd through volunteering and service work in a public place). I want to get them into a bike repair and riding group, rock climbing, concerts and music with a focus on learning to PLAY music, too (we wrote on several instruments last night on Craigslist), etc. They are also starting to show an interest in martial arts - something that I intend to support completely and enthusiastically. Unlike some of the posters on MDC, I am not anti-exploration... especially in a thoughtful and academic way (which is what it is right now). This can be a wonderful time in a teen's life; it seems like our culture is scared of our older children and sees teens (especially boys) as "bad". I, on the other hand, am just glad that the kids have allowed me to be part of this process (as opposed to thinking they are skating and drinking soda and get a call from the police because some older kids was pulled over, my kids were with them, and they are drinking and smoking).

I was hoping on to say something similar to what had already been posted, I JUST got through all of the posts *PHEW*.

It could take eons to comment on other posts so I'm directing my reply at the OP. My own DD has just turned 12 and despite her vast maturity in some areas, she's still very young and naive in others. She's going from an elementary school this year to junior high next year so I imagine these same conversations will come up in our family in the not so distant future - but we have yet to deal with them so I am by no means an expert.

I had great parents, some areas could definitely have used some tweaking but on the whole I grew up very respected, valued and listened to. My parents made their views on smoking, drinking, drugs well known to us (I have a sis). Their take on things (and now mine) is that we were sooooo valued, sooooo special that they didn't want us to make decisions and choices that would de-value ourselves or our bodies - to think bigger and further than to do things for immediate gratification (which most of us agree is common with teens).

13 seems REALLY young to me to be experimenting (especially with parental consent), although admittedly common at that age at this time, it wasn't common for my own group of friends growing up. I think children tend to gravitate to friends based on a number of factors, including having parents with similar parenting views (ie. my friends all had similar curfews, parents who valued higher education, encouraged community involvement, supported extra curricular activities, etc). In my own experience, it was during times where I was struggling to find my place in life that experimenting with drugs, smoking, alcohol, or sex seemed much more appealing and it was during times when I was involved and passionate about something (music, sports, yoga/meditation, politics etc.) that the urge to experiment was no where to be found. I believe that helping your kids find things they're good at and passionate about is key to helping them thrive in their teen years.

While my parents were people I trusted to love me unconditionally, I did see them as my 'guides' and respected and valued their opinions. I was a pleaser, not because they expected it of me, but because I saw myself through their eyes - a girl who could be and do anything, was funny and intelligent and talented and special and I wanted success and happiness for myself as much as they wanted it for me. It seems to me that your son also values his relationship with you and may perhaps be looking for guidance from you so I can understand how difficult finding the right course of action is - it's obvious you don't want to disturb what is an open and trusting relationship. I just wanted to demonstrate that setting boundaries or having expectations doesn't necessarily throw off the balance of an already strong relationship.

I'm not naive, I KNOW I'll likely deal with these issues with my DD at a younger age than I myself dealt with them. I have discussed most of these issues with my DD already in order to foster open discussion and while I don't 'tell' her what to do, I do share experiences and fears with her. At 13 (a year from now) I don't expect I'll feel any less responsible for her well-being and I feel very strongly that I need to guide her through the common struggling points in her teenage years. I'll be very curious to hear what comes of the dialogue with your son and what decisions you make.


----------



## TranscendentalMom (Jun 28, 2002)

Irish - Great post! I agree with everything you said.

I've been thinking a lot about this thread and thanks to the OP for giving me a lot to think about. I realized that these issues are going to come up earlier than I realized (I think the statistic is that most kids have been offered pot by age 12?)and its good to be prepared ahead of time. My conclusion after thinking about it is that if something like this happened when my kids were 16 or 17, I could see approaching it like the OP did. However, at 12 or 13, experimenting with drugs isn't allowed. (if I had to go to the extreme of constant supervision, I would) I agree with Irish that possibly a more effective way to do that is surround myself with other parents who have the same values. (which makes me seriously rethink some of the friends I have now who smoke pot themselves and will possibly condone it when their kids do!) I also agree that if a kid that young wants to do drugs he/she is likely feeling lost and need to get involved in some activities that inspires them and boosts self esteem. I know my own "experimentation" at 15 started out of feeling lost/bored.

I read in a parenting book that as teens, kids actually need more parental involvement then they did at 9 or 10 and typically its a time where parents are letting them go even more. It made the point that is probably safer to leave a 9 year old alone for a weekend than a 14 year old! It advised parents to prepare to put other things aside during this time (much the way we do when they are toddlers) so we can give them more attention and guidance during this time.


----------



## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

13 doesn't seem that young to me. I was in 5th grade the first time I smoked MJ. How old was I, 10 or 11? That was 27 years ago. So, if kids are exposed to illicit drugs at an earlier age now, I'd suspect they're being offered in elementary school, not junior high. Most of the people I knew were doing it. I have a brother 3 years older then me who, for whatever reason, fell into the druggie crowd. He and his friends had a lot of influence on me. So, yes, a lot of it had to do with the people I knew. There were plenty of kids my age and my brother's age who did not and had not ever used drugs. I could go on and on with speculation of why we ended up with the group we did. That doesn't really matter now. The fact is that the drugs were there for us if we wanted them at a very young age. So, thinking your child won't be exposed until 12 or 13 or later is being a bit naive, I think. IMO, there should be an ongoing dialogue about illicit drugs and other risky behaviors starting at a much younger age.


----------



## Irish (Jun 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
13 doesn't seem that young to me. I was in 5th grade the first time I smoked MJ. How old was I, 10 or 11? That was 27 years ago. So, if kids are exposed to illicit drugs at an earlier age now, I'd suspect they're being offered in elementary school, not junior high. Most of the people I knew were doing it. I have a brother 3 years older then me who, for whatever reason, fell into the druggie crowd. He and his friends had a lot of influence on me. So, yes, a lot of it had to do with the people I knew. There were plenty of kids my age and my brother's age who did not and had not ever used drugs. I could go on and on with speculation of why we ended up with the group we did. That doesn't really matter now. The fact is that the drugs were there for us if we wanted them at a very young age. So, thinking your child won't be exposed until 12 or 13 or later is being a bit naive, I think. IMO, there should be an ongoing dialogue about illicit drugs and other risky behaviors starting at a much younger age.

I DO know my twelve year old well enough to know that drugs just haven't been an issue yet (and we have had an open dialogue about many such topics, including mj). She doesn't have older siblings and I know all her friends and friends families very well - at 12 they're still playing with dolls and sidewalk chalk (albeit on the down low). This proves my theory that not only does it have to do with childrens own personalities but also on their favored influences (friends, family etc).


----------



## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Hehe playing with dolls and chalk on the down low

I'm glad it hasn't become an issue yet. My point was that it is around whether it's an issue or not. I think if you talk to anyone involved in any of those drug education programs they'll say dialogue needs to begin in elementary school. The DARE program is focused on that age. The reason for that is because the drugs are there and available and most kids no about them, whether they're an issue for the kids or not.


----------



## E.V. Lowi (Sep 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
Hehe playing with dolls and chalk on the down low

I'm glad it hasn't become an issue yet. My point was that it is around whether it's an issue or not. I think if you talk to anyone involved in any of those drug education programs they'll say dialogue needs to begin in elementary school. The DARE program is focused on that age. The reason for that is because the drugs are there and available and most kids no about them, whether they're an issue for the kids or not.

The DARE program made my kids want to try drugs!


----------



## AbundantLife (Jun 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *embers* 
I have heard of people that have schizophrenia, bi-polar, and a few other disorders having a sudden onset after smoking pot for a while. The pot did not create the disorders (they were already there), but it did uncover them for the user.

Though it may or may not affect this conversation, but my son is adopted. He has experienced some trauma in his life. He also shows many attributes of ADHD. It is possible that he could use pot as a way to process pain or to use as a crutch or something. Or it is possible that he could try it and just like getting giggly and stuff with his friends. He may like the calming effects. He may like that it gives him the munchies (he has a low appitite and it bothers him often, especially when he feels low energy and knows its because he should eat, but just does not FEEL like eating). He could self-medicate. He could become addicted. It could uncover schizophrenia. He could really like to just zone out on video games and read. He may not like it at all. It could give him a head ache. I do not know. I would like to keep no knowing, because I would like for him to not smoke pot.

I have not *allowed* him to become addicted to cigs nor have I let him play with drugs. I have had some really great conversations, I have lots a lot of sleep, I have asked for suggestions on how to do things differently, and I have not shut the door on any subject or possible way to handle it. Shame on me for not being a good parent







: I am not being just a friend to my son. But I do not think that parents need to be unfriendly or unfriendlike. I think that the trend in our culture to justify being disconnected from our children by feeling like we are hurting them by also being their friend is really sad.

This makes sense to me. Even if he does still try pot, having other interests and activities is great, and the pot may be a passing fancy, but the martial arts and chess team may last well through his adulthood.

*My son's interest with pot seems to be with "hippie culture", Oregon subculture, self-exploration, etc. "Trying on hats" about what kind of teen he is and want to be. My husband is getting our son together with some of the people through the SCA tonight that both do and do not smoke, for conversations on why, the ups and downs in their personal lives, how it has affected them, etc (especially since so many ARE that cool, self-exploring, active hippie type that DON'T smoke... and a few that do are the ones that would likely discourage it and talk about some of the realities - ie. use it for pain management, have tried to quit and can't, have been arrested, etc).*

I have been talking to my son at length about the level of responsibility and things he needs to consider when thinking of experimenting with pot. There is so much more to it than spending $10 at the skatepark to some kid with pot and then grabbing a pop can. I have discussed the legal side, the ethical sides that I can see with buying it, getting other people involved, the risks in getting caught on the effect on the family, knowing where the pot is coming from, getting involved in a "scene", etc. Meanwhile, I am getting the boys involved with a peaceful anarchy group and Food not Bombs (for that "cool" hippie crowd through volunteering and service work in a public place). I want to get them into a bike repair and riding group, rock climbing, concerts and music with a focus on learning to PLAY music, too (we wrote on several instruments last night on Craigslist), etc. They are also starting to show an interest in martial arts - something that I intend to support completely and enthusiastically. Unlike some of the posters on MDC, I am not anti-exploration... especially in a thoughtful and academic way (which is what it is right now). This can be a wonderful time in a teen's life; it seems like our culture is scared of our older children and sees teens (especially boys) as "bad". I, on the other hand, am just glad that the kids have allowed me to be part of this process (as opposed to thinking they are skating and drinking soda and get a call from the police because some older kids was pulled over, my kids were with them, and they are drinking and smoking).

I'm glad you brought this up because I was going to. Kids are going to model their parents. You son is exposed to the counter-culture and views this as something cool. It's up to you now to show him that it isn't. If you really don't want him to partake, you have to hold firm to that belief.


----------



## embers (Mar 24, 2006)

Well, then you and I DISAGREE on this... or at least the approach. See, I think that a lot of "counter culture" IS cool. I do not think that it is up to me to show him that it is not cool, because it IS cool. It is wonderfully cool... but there is a lot of things bunched into "counter culture" that is dangerous, undesirable, and deadly. It is up to me to help direct his interests, not to tell him that they are not cool. Introducing him to Buddhism, into some social conscious and volunteer-focused hippie culture, getting him into music and performance, etc are all ideas on how to help him direct his interests in a way that is healthy, exciting, and "good"; and hopefully avoiding some of the pitfalls of "pretend" realities (including drug use).

If it were all about modeling, he would have no interest in pot. He would have no interest in large new social situations. He would likely aspire to being a stay at home mom that vacuums a lot and sits on the computer for fun. I have not modeled pot interest, hippie culture, etc.... but I have not villanized his INTEREST in it, either. He is exposed to counter culture daily due to living in Oregon, but so much of that counter culture is beautiful and enriching. My goal is to help him direct his interests in those areas, while avoiding and the drug allure.

Kids do model their parents to a certain degree, but kids (like all people... yep, kids ARE people) are individuals with free minds, their own reasons, and their own interests. Your statement is painfully narrow, I think, because it takes away the possibility for individuality. Sure, modeling is the BIGGEST part of parenting and possibly has the largest effect (especially long term) on the most fundamental aspects of discovering and inventing "self". But modeling can only go so far, as it is very human to want to strike out, seek out, and experiment. My goal is to be PART of that process and help give wisdom, insight, direction, and help.

If you actually feel that holding to the belief that counter culture is not cool, why are you posting on Mothering? This forum is very counter culture as far as parenting is concerned.


----------



## forthebest (Jun 19, 2006)

yeah this is the crux I think, so many people want to just shrug off, demonize, avoid, put down our whole culture of hippiedom or whatever that, that just cannot be right. We have soo much to be thankful for, soooo much. Music, art,film,theatre, etc. It's like if we celebrate anything that may be, however, in some way drug-related, I'm sure led zep were wasted, the stones?, van gogh? was he not an alcoholic? it's not like celebrating the fact that they used and abused substances, more like their talents and inspirations grew despite and possibly sometimes with those influences as well as other influences of course. It's like we are the people your parents told you to avoid. Mainstream culture is imo so boring, also negative and it's no wonder many, many people choose to divert from that. There is so much more to indulge in in this life than 'ending up' seriously addicted to drugs, drink, but imo the very straightness of mainstream society actually pushes people in the very direction it seems hell-bent on avoiding. And the lack therein of any positive subcultures can end up forcing people to rely on possibly destructive sources to get by in life.


----------



## Naturalyst (Feb 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AbundantLife* 
You [sic] son is exposed to the counter-culture and views this as something cool. It's up to you now to show him that it isn't.

IMO, setting oneself apart from the masses, whether through the experience of counter culture or otherwise is not inherently negative. I would hope the poster meant to say parents would do well to guide teens navigating counter culture. Teens, especially those raised to be open to people and experiences, are not likely to buy into painting counter culture with a broad stroke - good or bad.

One clear message in our parenting has always been that "different" can be good, great. Strides and change don't come from the center of society, they comes from the fringe - no? Isn't it those who color outside lines that create art? Isn't it those who think outside the box that invent? Isn't it those who step ahead of the pack who lead? The key, I think, is to encouraging our children to take what works, explore what seems interesting, and pass on what's known to harm or doesn't appeal.

I'm in awe of what sets my 19 y.o. apart from the mainstream. I certainly proud when she does well in here core curriculum at college and reward her performance with praise and, sometimes, tangibles. But, I'm rendered completely speechless when I see her art work and
her fashion designs, and when I read her stories. In her art, her clothes and stories, I see my 19 y.o. defined apart from the multitude.

Different - counter - odd - fringe ... these can be sweet words. KWIM?


----------



## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Sometimes kids model the behaviour of adults whom they admire and sometimes they listen best to the adults who have actually BTDT.

My favourite aunt smoked cigarettes (she recently died from an asthma attack) and the whole time I was growing up and following her whenever she went outside for a cigarette, she told me NEVER EVER EVER to try even ONE cigarette because I didn't want to end up like her and not be able to quit.

My parents had talked to me about cigarettes before, but honestly, they'd never tried cigarettes so I didn't give them much credit. I considered that my aunt, since she actually had firsthand experience with what she was teaching me, knew what she was talking about and it's because of HER, not because of my parents, that (although I have tried other drugs) I have never taken a single puff of a cigarette.

I'm sure my parents were concerned about me seeing her smoking so much, and they even told me that on at least one occasion. I told my mom fairly recently that going out with my aunt on her smoke breaks was probably the deciding factor in my decision NEVER to try tobacco.

OP - I think it's awesome to take your son to see reliable folks who used to (or even still do) use drugs and have them talk to him about it. Them telling him to wait until college to experiment (until his brain is more developed) or to not try certain drugs because they truly are horribly dangerous will probably carry more weight with him than someone who's never used drugs or who didn't experience many for very long because these folks KNOW what they're talking about firsthand instead of getting it from some textbook or government propaganda.

Does that make sense?

love and peace.


----------



## AbundantLife (Jun 4, 2005)

embers,
I do not define myself as belonging to any one "group." I am not what you would consider counter-culture, though I do agree that some of the aspects are "cool". I do agree that some of the aspects are not, as you said. (I don't really think we disagree on that)







:

However, you need to define within your family what you will accept. He is still a child and you do have the responsibility of protecting him as much as you can. Of course we cannot protect or shelter them from everything, but if you truly do believe that MJ use is OK, it will be a lot harder for you to enforce it.

You originally asked us if we thought you were doing the right thing.

As far as why I am posting here, well, I began reading Mothering magazine when my boys were little and I liked it for its differing opinions on parenting topics. I felt drawn to this community. I may not have followed the "trend" here to the T, but like anything else, I picked and chose aspects from Mothering and applied them to our lives. Just because I don't look like a "crunchy granola" , don't homeschool my kids and didn't "wear my baby" doesn't mean I can't post here. Actually, I find the signature lines (I didn't circ! or anti-vax, extended breastfeeding) kind of amusing. Who cares?


----------



## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I had to go back to the beginning to remember what this thread was originally about. I wanted to comment on allowing other people's children to smoke at your home. I posted before that my 16yo smokes and I do "allow" him and his friends to smoke outside my home. I don't chase them off with a broomstick. I don't allow them to smoke _in_ my home because of the health of the rest of us. I recently found out that a mom of one of his friend does allow my ds to smoke in her house. I understand her reasoning. She smokes so, like has been said here many times, she can't really tell them that they can't. Having them smoke in the house doesn't change or affect her home life at all. I didn't and won't freak out over it but that doesn't mean I like it. Maybe that's because I knew he smoked cigs already. If I didn't know he was smoking at all, maybe I'd be more upset.

I also wanted to comment on MJ leading to other drugs. I am not hardcore against MJ. I really don't care whether other people use it or not (although I would not knowingly leave my children with someone who had been smoking it). I don't think it's evil. I do think it is mind-altering and, therefore, put it in the same category as alcohol in that respect. I and most of the kids I knew growing up smoked MJ first. We all, every single one of us, moved on to other, harder drugs. Some of us got over it and moved on. Some of us became full blown addicts and got into lots of trouble. I'm not saying that everyone who ever experiments with MJ is going to use other drugs but I am saying that it is a gateway. If one is willing to try MJ, one is probably more willing to try other drugs as well. KWIM?


----------



## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
I also wanted to comment on MJ leading to other drugs. I am not hardcore against MJ. I really don't care whether other people use it or not (although I would not knowingly leave my children with someone who had been smoking it). I don't think it's evil. I do think it is mind-altering and, therefore, put it in the same category as alcohol in that respect. I and most of the kids I knew growing up smoked MJ first. We all, every single one of us, moved on to other, harder drugs. Some of us got over it and moved on. Some of us became full blown addicts and got into lots of trouble. I'm not saying that everyone who ever experiments with MJ is going to use other drugs but I am saying that it is a gateway. If one is willing to try MJ, one is probably more willing to try other drugs as well. KWIM?

Did you and the other kids who smoked MJ and went on to harder drugs try MJ first or did you try alcohol, tobacco, or caffeine first? I have yet to meet a single person who actually tried MJ *first* before any other drugs. I, myself, tried caffeine and alcohol first. I never tried tobacco because of my aunt's warnings, but almost everyone I know who tried MJ had smoked cigarettes first. They were legal and it introduced them to the smoking method of administering drugs.

So how can MJ be called a gateway drug when others have been used first and quite possibly led to the MJ use in the first place? Well...

When cannabis was first criminalised in the US, Harry Anslinger (the Commissioner of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics who pretty much single-handedly ensured the prohibition of cannabis) denied vehemently that "marihuana" was a gateway drug. A couple of decades later and he claimed that it was







One theory is that it is only a gateway drug because it is illegal and therefore introduces the user to a black-market drug seller. That would explain why it wasn't considered a gateway drug when it was legal, but was after it was made illegal. I don't see how it could be something inherent in the drug that predisposes people to trying other drugs or the connection would have been made regardless of legal status.

love and peace.


----------



## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *embers* 

Ad for the comment "what are you going to do when your 13 year old wants to explore crack?"... This just seems so far fetched to me. Some of my largest fears as a parent (especially to a sensory-seeking "balls-to-the-walls" explorer like my oldest) is that my child would become addicted to hard drugs or get involved in a "scene" that would hurt or kill. I have tried to design a family dynamic that would allow for intervention BEFORE things went so far, because we are all connected and collected and communicate openly.

I've read the thread from beginning to end, and I am really curious about this part. What kind of intervention would you design, Embers? Right here is the point before (or immediately after) things have gone too far. You have a history of addiction in your family that you've tried to explain to the boys, yet one is already smoking. It is really hard to keep a blind eye and a watchful one at the same time. What is dangerous becomes harder to see when you're already thick in the middle of it and on the slope.
I don't understand why exploring crack would be so far fetched. It's another step. Your family history says that you don't know how far this is going to go.

I definitely believe in keeping open communication and giving our kids information, but there has to be a firm, family boundary that keeps _everyone_ safe and respected. You are not respecting your children. Not at this point. You are letting them do something illegal that if caught, will break up the family as CPS intervenes. You are letting them harm their bodies in a way where the damage may never be undone.


----------



## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I'm certainly no experts on drugs in general or MJ specifically. I can only comment on my own experiences. I don't know what, if any, other substances the other kids I knew tried first. I honestly don't remember if I had had any caffiene before trying MJ. I was very young, only 10 years old. Sodas and iced tea were not around in my house and I don't know when I first had either one. I do remember that I didn't try coffee until I was in high school. I started drinking alcohol around the same time as trying MJ and I can't say which one came first for me. I had tried cigs much younger and was what I'd consider a regular smoker by the time I was 10, buying my own when I could. When I was partying with my friends after trying MJ for the first time there was only MJ and alcohol available until I was a much older teen, as far as I was aware. I can say that the feeling that I got from MJ was much different and much more intense than the feeling I got from from nicotine or caffiene. I would not put those in the same class as MJ. Nicotine and caffiene do not affect motor skills, judgement and reasoning the way that MJ does, at least not for me. We could, if we wanted, classify everything that we ingest and inhale as a drug since the broadest definition is any substance that causes a chemical reaction in the body. Water does that.


----------



## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

I'm about to get a tad long-winded and I apologize, but it is so important for parents to learn the truth about drugs as much as possible so we can accurately prepare our children for these issues.

http://www.drugwatch.org/Alcohol%20&...ay%20Drugs.htm

Quote:

Dr. John Slade reported at the 1989 National Conference on Nicotine Dependence in San Diego, California, that tobacco smoking teaches drug acquisition skills to the youth. He said, "For the most part, they're illegal for kids to buy. In addition, kids who smoke get firsthand experience in using a substance to adjust emotional states." Slade reports that tobacco use teaches drug-taking skills and that tobacco use promotes an attitude that fosters other drug taking behaviors.

Compounding the problem is the relative ease with which youth can access alcohol and tobacco. Both drugs are widely available, inexpensive and heavily marketed, making them especially attractive to youth, who are the most price-sensitive consumer age group.
Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding your post in any way:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
I'm certainly no experts on drugs in general or MJ specifically. I can only comment on my own experiences......
......I had tried cigs much younger and was what I'd consider a regular smoker by the time I was 10, buying my own when I could. When I was partying with my friends after trying MJ for the first time there was only MJ and alcohol available until I was a much older teen, as far as I was aware. I can say that the feeling that I got from MJ was much different and much more intense than the feeling I got from from nicotine or caffiene. I would not put those in the same class as MJ. Nicotine and caffiene do not affect motor skills, judgement and reasoning the way that MJ does, at least not for me. We could, if we wanted, classify everything that we ingest and inhale as a drug since the broadest definition is any substance that causes a chemical reaction in the body. Water does that.

I'm not seeing anywhere in your experiences, as you have related them here, that MJ was a gateway to using other drugs. Even folks who use legalistic terms to define "drugs" admit that tobacco is one and you tried that well before MJ. Regardless of how it made you feel, nicotine is a potent and addictive drug that alters the way your brain works.

Tobacco, alcohol, and caffeine have all been illegal before in different places and times in history because of their addictive and mind-altering properties. All have been used specifically *for* their mind-altering effects. I have friends who seriously abused Mountain Dew during college so they could cram for exams and party all night between exams. I've been quite high and incoherent on caffeine before, myself... working at Starbucks and having to taste all the different types of drinks in two days will do that, I guess... I don't use caffeine often and apparently it affects me a lot when I do.

Also I'm curious (and amused and joking a bit here to hopefully lighten the mood














. You seem to be saying that, by your definition, water could be the real gateway drug? Dh considers that breastmilk is much more likely to be the gateway drug by your definition







And since light causes chemical reactions in our eyes then we're on drugs all the time! (that last bit was from dh as well







: he's a nerd







)

I couldn't find your definition anywhere though...

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?drug

Quote:

Main Entry: drug
Pronunciation: 'dr&ug
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English drogge
1 a obsolete : a substance used in dyeing or chemical operations b : a substance used as a medication or in the preparation of medication c according to the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (1) : a substance recognized in an official pharmacopoeia or formulary (2) : a substance intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease (3) : a substance other than food intended to affect the structure or function of the body (4) : a substance intended for use as a component of a medicine but not a device or a component, part, or accessory of a device
2 : a commodity that is not salable or for which there is no demand -- used in the phrase drug on the market
3 : something and often an illegal substance that causes addiction, habituation, or a marked change in consciousness
I'm not continuing this to get into an argument or to belittle anyone's experiences. I just hate to see MJ take all the blame for being a "gateway drug" when the majority of people who go on to use hard drugs (or even MJ itself!) used tobacco or alcohol first. This is important information that tends to get lost in the "OMG, MJ is a gateway drug and is illegal and horrible and evil" shpiel that gets brought into these discussions.

_I have a friend who is a heroin junky *because* she was told that MJ was terrible and horrible and "just as bad as heroin" (which I'm certain none of you will tell your children 'cause that's obviously a lie). Some of her friends tried MJ and she saw that nothing terrible happened to them so she tried it too. At that point she'd been smoking cigarettes and drinking for several years (her father was an alcoholic - AND a cop...).

Nothing terrible happened to her when she tried MJ. She then assumed that since she'd been lied to about MJ then everything she was told about all the harder drugs must have been a lie as well. So she went on to try everything else too. You could say that MJ was her gateway to harder drugs since she probably would never have tried harder drugs had she not tried MJ. However, she would also have not tried the harder drugs had she tried MJ, but been told the TRUTH about MJ vs heroin/cocaine/crack/etc.
_
This is just one of the reasons why I think knowing the truth, as parents, is so important. My friend is partly the reason why I studied up on this so much. I don't want my children (or anyone else's either) to end up like her due to lack of knowledge... It's a terribly hard issue







It's a fascinating one to study in-depth also









love and peace.


----------



## Datura (Mar 18, 2005)

This is a great thread.

Well, here's my experience on it. I came from a hardcore, Bible thumping thou shalt not family. I got heavily into mj and alcohol as a form of escape. I was also smoking a pack a day before I fell pregnant with my son at age 22. I've had addictive issues my entire life, which thankfully I'm over.

My DH came from a family that is very anti-drug, adamently so, but they do drink. DH has never touched anything illegal (I think the issue is primarily that it's "wrong" due to its legal status), and I suspect neither has his older brother. His younger brother is a bit of an experimenter, don't know exactly what he's been up to, though. He's smart enough to keep it under control.

However, a kid that I grew up with was allowed to smoke pot early on and quickly became addicted. He was a heavy tobacco smoker as well. It was to the point that he was showing up for school every day toasted.

I think that there are a lot of factors in who will and who won't become addicted, both social and biological. And I see no problems in saying, "Hey, I know that its intriguing but *we* don't do that for these reasons." You wouldn't allow him to hurt someone else, why allow the potential for life long self harm? Also, as it has been said, you are very vulnerable to getting in trouble with the authorities. If you put your foot down he may sneak around, yes. But if he gets caught, then at least then *you* won't be an accessory to it, rather just another mom whose kid is smoking pot in a parking lot. Not nearly as big of a deal as a mom who allows it. I suspect, too, that he's searching for his boundary. I think that putting the stop sign up at pot is a good place. It doesn't need to go any further than that.

I completely hear where you're coming from, its just that sometimes we have to let go of part of our ideology and just do everything possible to keep our kids safe, even if we have to channel Stalin in the process.

I'm sooo not looking forward to having this conversation with my own boy in 10 years or so... Good luck to you.


----------



## Datura (Mar 18, 2005)

Just wanted to add a disclaimer. I *know* that mj itself is not an addictive substance, but people can be addicted to the escape it produces. Plus there are those who can be addicted to cough drops, depending on their personalities.

I say legalize the stuff and tax the heck out of it, just keep it out of the kids' hands.


----------



## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Before I start I want to say that I am leaving for vacation for a week today so this will probably be my last post on this thread but that doesn't mean I've run off. I don't want anyone to think this is a hit and run post.

Let's see if I can hit on everything. This may be kind of jumbled and random. I do not think that MJ is evil but I also don't think it's as benign as some people seem to want to make it out to be (unless I am misinterpreting). I totally agree that alcohol, caffiene and nicotine are all drugs. I also agree that tabacco is probably a much more dangerous drug than MJ (although, again I'm not an expert on either so I don't really know how they both work in the body). Tabacco is so adulterated today. Who knows how it would be in comparison to MJ if they were both in their original, natural forms? Maybe tobacco was the gateway for me to MJ (a stronger substance?) and then on to other things? I don't really know. I can tell you that I did not consciously think, "Wow! Tobacco made me feel like this but it wasn't enough. I want to try something more intense." However, once I tried MJ I did think that and I purposefully sought out other illicit drugs.

Based on my first hand experience with caffiene, nicotine and MJ, I can say this about me. Nicotine was probably the most addictive, physically, followed by caffiene. I did not like MJ so I didn't use it much. I have no first hand knowledge of the addictive powers, physical or psychological, that MJ may have. I have known plenty of people who appeared to me to be addicted to MJ in one way or another. They couldn't do anything until they got high. However, there was a big difference in the way those drugs affected me in the moment. Nicotine did not impair my ability to operate machinery or reason. Caffiene could impair those things if I had too much. Alcohol certainly does. MJ is in the same class as alcohol for me when it comes to that. I would not be able to drive a car or think rationally after smoking MJ. That, for me, is the distinction.

I would not knowingly leave my child with a tobacco smoker for the obvious health risks to my child but not because I think they wouldn't be able to provide the basic care that my child needs. I would never knowingly leave my child with someone who was a caffiene addict, either. In that case, I would be very concerned about that person being able to provide basic care. But I'd be fine with someone who likes to have a cup of coffee or two or a caffienated soda or tea. I'd rather that person drink a cup of coffee and stay awake than fall asleep while watching my child. I hope it goes without saying that I would not leave my child with an alcholic but I don't have a problem with someone having a drink as long as they stop there. I would not leave my child with someone who smoked MJ, either, for all the reasons above plus the fact that it is illegal.

My comment about water being considered a drug was supposed to make the point that anything that we consume could be considered a drug so we need to also look at what the effects of those things are on our brains and bodies. The definition I provided of a drug is my own based on my knowledge and understanding of biology, chemistry and what a drug is. Notice that definition #3 had to make the explicit distinction that food is not a drug. If it did not, under the definition that followed it would be considered a drug. Aren't there those who say food is a drug? Also, I think water could be included in definition #4. Water is a component of many drugs.

So, then the question becomes where do we draw the line? Our society has decided to draw the line at how those things we consume effect us. Do they impair our judgement, thinking and reasoning? Do they impair our motor skills? Do they affect our normal biological functions like the ability to stay awake or sleep to the point that it can become a problem? Do they pose serious health risks, side effects?


----------



## caspian's mama (Mar 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
I would not knowingly leave my child with a tobacco smoker for the obvious health risks to my child but not because I think they wouldn't be able to provide the basic care that my child needs. I would never knowingly leave my child with someone who was a caffiene addict, either. In that case, I would be very concerned about that person being able to provide basic care. But *I'd be fine with someone who likes to have a cup of coffee or two or a caffienated soda or tea. I'd rather that person drink a cup of coffee and stay awake than fall asleep while watching my child.* I hope it goes without saying that I would not leave my child with an alcholic but I don't have a problem with someone having a drink as long as they stop there. I would not leave my child with someone who smoked MJ, either, for all the reasons above plus the fact that it is illegal.

would you not let any cigarette smoker care for your child? i'm not talking about someone who would smoke indoors or anywhere the child could see it, or maybe not even the whole time they were with the child, if it was just a few hours.

same for mj. if you had an otherwise reliable and loving family member who smoked only recreationally (say, 1x month) and would not be possessing or inhaling any mj during their time, would you never let them stay with your child?

re: bold - mj does for my bipolar what the caffeine does for your example person here.







:


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caspian's mama* 
would you not let any cigarette smoker care for your child? i'm not talking about someone who would smoke indoors or anywhere the child could see it, or maybe not even the whole time they were with the child, if it was just a few hours.

same for mj. if you had an otherwise reliable and loving family member who smoked only recreationally (say, 1x month) and would not be possessing or inhaling any mj during their time, would you never let them stay with your child?


I for one would not allow my children to be taken care of by anyone who would break the law, without a really really compelling reason. Others being harmed:Compelling Reason

Need MJ to ward off nausea during cancer treatment or help with other medical condition: Complelling Reason; (It sounds like the quoted poster might be in this category).

BUT:

Want MJ cuz you like the way it makes you feel, though no medical reason. Sorry NO DICE. If you think the law is wrong, work to change it. If the only upside to breaking it is cuz you like to get high, I don't want you taking care of my kids.


----------



## loriforeman (Aug 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
I for one would not allow my children to be taken care of by anyone who would break the law, without a really really compelling reason. Others being harmed:Compelling Reason

Need MJ to ward off nausea during cancer treatment or help with other medical condition: Complelling Reason; (It sounds like the quoted poster might be in this category).

BUT:

Want MJ cuz you like the way it makes you feel, though no medical reason. Sorry NO DICE. If you think the law is wrong, work to change it. If the only upside to breaking it is cuz you like to get high, I don't want you taking care of my kids.

not only would they not be CARING for my children, they wouldn't be allowed AROUND them, either.

and yes, that includes family.


----------



## caspian's mama (Mar 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
I for one would not allow my children to be taken care of by anyone who would break the law, without a really really compelling reason. Others being harmed:Compelling Reason

does this include anyone who ever drives 5-10 miles/hour over the posted speed limit? i'm not trying to be snarky, just trying to explore the gray areas of life.


----------



## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *embers* 
Am I doing okay with this? Am I going about this all wrong? I just want my kids to be safe and also to not spin down that ugly road of deception during self exploration. If there is ever a serious drug, alcohol, sex, etc issue later maybe this will be that foundation of trust and acceptance that may make all the difference.

Well, I come from a completely different parenting paradigm than you do, but I have to say that encouraging your 12 year old to smoke/smoke pot knowing that cigarettes are more addictive than heroin and that you and your son could end up with criminal offenses (which could affect your ds for the rest of his life) is not a smart move. "Crawl out your window and do something illegal in the backyard" doesn't seem like wise advice to me. If the police/child welfare were called about this for any reason, I doubt they would have much interest in your "I want us to have open and honest communication" idea. And if I ever found out that one of my kids' friends' parents were allowing/encouraging my child to do something dangerous and illegal, I would be furious.

The fact that you allow him to do it but still want to feign ignorance says a lot to me.

dm


----------



## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Just wanted to add a little more:

I wonder what you would say to your son if he came to you at 30 and said, "Mom, I started smoking when I was 13 and you let me! You told me to climb out my window and smoke! Seventeen years later, I can't quit! Why didn't you stop me from smoking?" Because I think that's a more likely scenario than, "Mom, when I was 13 you wouldn't let me smoke, so I had to sneak my cigs. I'm 30 now and I can't quit! Why didn't you let me smoke freely??"

The other thing I wanted to say (and this is an anecdote, so you can all collectively roll your eyes, because we all know that anecdotes do not equal data) is that I grew up in a fairly traditional home. Although my mom smoked when I was growing up, it was understood that smoking and drugs were a no-no for us kids. My dad frequently lectured us about how dangerous and stupid drugs are. My older sister has never smoked and didn't take her first drink until she was 22. She now has a PhD in immunology.

I started drinking in 7th grade and, when I was 16-18, smoked a bit and did a bunch of drugs. I had to hide it all from my folks. Eventually, I got tired of sneaking around and started to take seriously all the anti-smoking/drugs messages I'd had drummed into me. I saw where my drinking and drugging friends were going (which was nowhere, I saw their lives staying stagnant over those three years). I graduated near the top of my highschool class, went on to college, graduated summa cum laude from college, and have had a fabulous and drug/smoking/alcoholism-free life.

I had a circle of 6 friends that I did my drugs with. We were all middle class kids from conventional families. Five of those kids had parents who "let" their kids do drugs and smoke. Two of those parents would invite the kids over to their houses so we could do our drugs "safely." One of those kids is in and out of jail now. One died of an overdose. Two others still do drugs frequently and are working poor with no higher education and no real prospects for an easier life. One I don't know what happened to. The sixth friend came from a family like mine, who didn't allow their kids to smoke and do drugs. She went to college and became a Russian teacher.

Not to sound snobby, but the two kids whose families set boundaries for their kids (even if their kids flouted them) are the ones who, these days, have comfortable and happy lives. Four of the other five are either dead, incarcerated, or lead very hard lives.

Yeah, it's an anecdote, but it means something to me.

dm


----------



## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Ok, I have read far enough to see that you are feeling bashed and you feel that people are not giving you alternatives about what they would do rather than just telling you that they think what you are doing is not ok.

Here's what I would do if my 13 year old daughter came to me and told me she wanted to try smoking/pot smoking. I would tell her that smoking and pot smoking are not things that our family does. I would explain to her the medical and legal risks. I would tell her that I expected her to abide by our decision that she not do it.

Would she do it anyway? Maybe. I did. My sister didn't. But there is a big difference, in my mind, between saying, "I don't approve and here's why. But in case you don't agree with me, use this lock box to hide your stash and feel free to climb out the window and do it anyway" and saying, "I don't approve and here's why. I expect you to respect my decision."

To me, one is drawing a boundary and giving guidance, and one is not. I honestly don't think it's guidance to give your kids the means to do something you don't approve of, and I agree with a pp who said that it's setting the bar of expectation pretty low.

dm


----------



## Susie1 (Mar 3, 2007)

How do you propose not "letting", "allowing" anyone to do anything? I am baffled by the idea that we can control another human being. We really cannot.

I know of a family who adopted a control the kid stance when it came to smoking pot. This poor kid is kept in a virtual prison for wanting to smoke mj...prohibited from spending time with friends...confined to the house...followed and harrassed when trying to get some time away from the house -- unbelievable level of control-attempt. This has been going on over a year.

Kid's solution? Smoke ciggies, pot and pop exstacy at school...until he got caught. Now it is a big legal deal. Parents put head in the sand -- kid cleverly kept the friends who knew how to hide things from parents, but all of the kids who have honest relationships with the world and their parents were cast out.

Result -- this kid and his friends who are sneaking are into the hard stuff and have legal trouble. (Not that this is a hard and fast rule -- just something that happened in this particular case.) The kids with better relationships at home just smoke mj, go to school and continue their lives in peace.

I do not advocate the stance that you tell kids just go do what you want as long as you don't know about it. I think this lacks the opportunity for critical analysis with kids. If you let kids know the truth, then they trust you.

You might still butt heads about boundaries and certain ideas about safety -- but at least it is out in the open and parent has a clear idea of where kid is, what kid is doing and kid does not have to hide anything.

Mj is not as dangerous as alcohol or cigarrettes -- both of which are legal. Mj is not as dangerous as being overweight and having diabetes. Mj is not as dangerous as a lot of the prescription drugs they are freely prescribing to our so-called "bi-polar" and "depressed" children.

ARGGHGGGHHGGGH Do you all really want to continue living in a police state?


----------



## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

I don't think that anyone is advocating following their children around like the secret police. I think you've created a false dichotomy. Telling kids not to smoke or do drugs is not equal to imprisoning kids in their homes and following/harassing them.

dm


----------



## caspian's mama (Mar 15, 2004)

i just finally sat and read through this entire thing. mama embers, are you still around? a few weeks have gone by since your original post. how are things progressing? how did the "boys night out" go? what a great outing, btw. hope they had a blast and forgot (for now) all about mj.

just wanted to say also, because i didn't address it when i first jumped in here:

cigarettes are nasty and evil. after smoking on and off for 16 years (the first time i was 12), i can't imagine what the condition of my lungs must be. and it's SOOOO F'ING HARD to quit, as others have mentioned. nevertheless, i'm trying again after we move next month and i'm quitting smoking mj too (except for recreationally). my daily use will be restricted to a vaporizer or some type of snacky deliciousness. i'm tired of my hair and all my sweaters being stinky (and we don't even smoke indoors). i'm tired of my teeth being funky colored. and i'm really tired of casi seeing me smoke. it is not the model i wish to provide.

just my 2 cents.







:


----------



## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I did not read all the posts between now and my last one but I want to respond to Caspian who asked about leaving my child with someone who smoked cigs but wouldn't in my child's presence. I have a sort of contradictory response to this. I do occasionally leave my younger child with my older child who smokes. He does go outside to smoke, which is good, but there are problems with this. He either has to leave my younger child in the house alone (which he doesn't do) or bring him outside while he smokes. My younger ds sees my older ds smoke outside whether he's taking care of him or not. I don't leave him for more than a couple of hours and only when it's absolutely necessary. However, because cigs are so addictive (I know because I used to smoke them) I would have a hard time trusting someone else to go for possibly hours without a cig while watching my children. So, I guess my answer to that is that, if I had a choice, I would not. However, when choosing to leave my child at some random child care place with strangers or leaving him with my older ds who smokes cigs, I choose my older ds.

It's not so much why someone uses a drug, such as using MJ for medicinal purposes, as are the effects of any said drug. I wouldn't leave my child with someone on prescription pain killers because of the effects of those drugs. I, myself, won't take many OTC meds because I would not be able to care for my children afterward.


----------



## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

I parent very differently than my own parents, but for some reason, their total hard line on smoking stuck. They're both vehemently anti-smoking - very physically fit and careful about staying healthy. I'm very close to them, and appreciative that they instilled a poor picture of cigarettes in my mind early. It wasn't a "Don't smoke because we say so" but more of a "Smoking is nasty - it wrecks your lungs." "You can tell a smoker by the impact it has on your face." etc. approach. They pointed out exactly what was wrong about it and I knew there was NO way they'd ever be OK with my smoking. So I didn't. Even as a 36 year old mom of 2, in my own home, etc. I'd never dare smoke around them.







And I never did (I have a lot of respect for them - they've earned it







)

I want my children to be independent decision makers and to think critically and make their own choices, but I will probably take the same approach on this one. It's a boundary that I'm comfortable setting. I think there can be a balance between having limits v. encouraging them to make their own choices. I guess parenting isn't an "either or" thing for me, but a balancing act.


----------



## caspian's mama (Mar 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
My younger ds sees my older ds smoke outside whether he's taking care of him or not. I don't leave him for more than a couple of hours and only when it's absolutely necessary. However, because cigs are so addictive (I know because I used to smoke them) I would have a hard time trusting someone else to go for possibly hours without a cig while watching my children. So, I guess my answer to that is that, if I had a choice, I would not.

sorry, but this doesn't make any sense to me. you'd rather your younger child stay with an underage (otherwise known as *illegal*) smoker who knowingly partakes while the child is present, versus a qualified (meaning friend or family) adult smoker? nicotine has often been compared to heroin here, but it's not exactly. i can easily work a full 8hr shift without taking a break. in fact, i usually only smoke 3-4 per day. i guess i'm just wondering why you have such a double standard. if you're trying to keep your younger kid from smoking cigarettes (esp before age 18), having his older brother as a role model doesn't exactly help.


----------



## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

This is a long thread, so please forgive if I am saying stuff that has been said before....

With respect to tobacco, I would NOT allow it to be used on my property - at least not at 13. Probably not until 16+. Tobacco is addictive, and we really should do our best to send the message that smoking it is not OK (and we tacitly say it is Ok when we allow it to be done on our property). I would never pay for smokes.

I am going to say something that I think is extremely unpopular (zipping up flame-proof suit, lol) I would consider grounding my child for a solid month if I felt they had a smoking addiction. That might help alleviate the "sneaking around to do it", as well as the addiction. Yes, they would hate me (hopefully temporarily) but tobacco use is serious! It takes an average of 7 years off peoples lives (and my smoking, overweight father dies at 58







) My DH's father has had 3 heart attacks! It also smells and cost ooddles of money, and is not fun to quit.

As for pot, well, I do not think it has the addiction implications that smoking tobacco has - so it would actually worry me less. But not at 13 - that is too young, imho. NIMBY.

Kathy


----------



## newmainer (Dec 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
And for those who say their kids had never done x, y, or z? I grew up in a pretty relaxed home. My parents trusted me a great deal and were always frank and open. Because of this, I also knew that their opinions on issues were typically far more conservative than mine were. It did not "rub off" on any level. And, even though I knew I would not get "punished", I still did not tell my parents about sex, drinking, and drug use. I knew it would kill them and I did not want to do that to them. I knew I was going to be fine. And I was. And did not feel like I should bug my parents with it. To this day, my mom has no idea I have ever done some of the things I experimented with in HS.

i had to agree with this. my mom was one of those, ' try it safely at home, if at all' kinds of parents. did i want to drink and smoke with my mom? hell no! but i also felt safer knowing that she wouldn't completely freak out about what i was doing. i appreciated that she wasn't a control freak, like other parents. but there were other key things too and i will translate this into what you asked for- approach and advice:

1- i was always expected to do well... my parents thought highly of me, expected me to go to college, etc... i think this is major. Let your son know that he has the capacity *and* you expect him to achieve his goals. i'm not saying you expect him to be a doctor, lawyer, etc... but i think when kids see that we believe in them, they see beyond next week, kwim?

2- my mom (single mom, but my dad did this too from afar) supported all of my extra curricular activities. i was the motivator behind all of them, but she found a way to make it happen- music lessons, sports, doing an amazing semester away my junior year of high school, taking a year off after college to travel. talk about giving your kid confidence! it was awesome, i never felt held back. was i smoking pot this whole time? yup. was it out of control? no. and i knew when i had done a bit too much one week, and cut back. my life did not revolve around my occasional use, it was full of other things.

so, point is, all of those things you and your dh are doing to support him in finding other activities and reaching out- awesome. very cool, and very important.

3. my parents didn't do this, but instead of *you* telling your son all the potential issues with drugs- have him research it. you homeschool, right? make it a project. compare drugs, effects, consequences, history, etc... information sinks in more deeply when it's obtained through one's own efforts. certain things will stick with him. i'm not saying don't share your opinion; you say, 'no son, i think smoking is wrong and i don't want you to do it." he says, 'why?' and you say,'let's find out. what do you want to know? lets' do some research..." the books pp's have suggested to you are great.

4. finally, you mentioned something about an initiation or something your dh was going to do, the boy-manhood thing. i cannot say enough about this. super important. i am going to pm you wtih the information about a wilderness school i was involved with in Shasta, Ca with a man who does life-changing boys rights of passage. unbelievable.

i used to work with all the "screwed up" kids, the ones who got kicked out of school, started using in 4th grade etc... and i can say, not one of them came from a home like yours (meaning, theirs was severely dysfunctional and yours is not even close).


----------



## Naturalyst (Feb 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama* 
Ok, I have read far enough to see that you are feeling bashed and you feel that people are not giving you alternatives about what they would do rather than just telling you that they think what you are doing is not ok.

To avoid the nasty tone of this thread, early on I provided a private message to the original poster of how I kept two at-risk teens from stumbling into drug, alcohol and tobacco pitfalls - with specifics. Others have provided specific advice as well. Sometimes posters asking for advice are not open to dissent, but only seek support for their chosen course of action.


----------



## embers (Mar 24, 2006)

Thank you, Naturalyst. Your PMs were taken into consideration and your effort with them really appreciated.


----------



## soccermominsd (Feb 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Stinkerbell* 
I think it's totally fab that you are honest and open and encouraging to your kids to be honest with you. I agree that sneaking and secrets are not healthy.

But I also think that sometimes kids test boundaries, for various reasons. And they need to know that you are going to help them establish boundaries for their own safety and well being. Putting your foot down about not allowing drug use would be, I think, basic boundary setting.









:


----------



## Datura (Mar 18, 2005)

*random hugs to Embers*


----------



## newmainer (Dec 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Naturalyst* 
To avoid the nasty tone of this thread, early on I provided a private message to the original poster of how I kept two at-risk teens from stumbling into drug, alcohol and tobacco pitfalls - with specifics. Others have provided specific advice as well. Sometimes posters asking for advice are not open to dissent, but only seek support for their chosen course of action.

would you be willing to summarize the tips you gave embers here also? i think there are many of us who are also looking for tips and strategies to consider along with our own approaches.


----------



## caspian's mama (Mar 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmainer* 
3. my parents didn't do this, but instead of *you* telling your son all the potential issues with drugs- have him research it. you homeschool, right? make it a project. compare drugs, effects, consequences, history, etc... information sinks in more deeply when it's obtained through one's own efforts. certain things will stick with him. i'm not saying don't share your opinion; you say, 'no son, i think smoking is wrong and i don't want you to do it." he says, 'why?' and you say,'let's find out. what do you want to know? lets' do some research..." the books pp's have suggested to you are great.









:







:







:







:







:







:


----------



## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

Quote:

instead of *you* telling your son all the potential issues with drugs- have him research it. you homeschool, right? make it a project. compare drugs, effects, consequences, history, etc... information sinks in more deeply when it's obtained through one's own efforts. certain things will stick with him. i'm not saying don't share your opinion; you say, 'no son, i think smoking is wrong and i don't want you to do it." he says, 'why?' and you say,'let's find out. what do you want to know? lets' do some research..." the books pp's have suggested to you are great.
That. Is a great idea and I plan on doing that for all of the teen "issues." Thank you for a really good idea!


----------



## BunnyShoes (Sep 20, 2007)

I hope to teach my children that their bodies are sacred. The caecenogengs in smoke are something I really worry about.


----------



## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

What are caecenogengs?


----------



## Tani (Feb 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kate3* 
A 13yo does not have adult reasoning or life skills to make these types of INFORMED decisions. That's where parenting comes in. Condoning drug use in a child is way beyond civil disobedience.









:


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I don't know what is best. I only know that drugs and smoking of any kind will not be tolerated at all within my family.

Smoking kills. There is no way around that. It kills and it kills slowly and painfully. Smoking also causes you to look older than your years. It limits who you can date, because most non smokers do not want to be with smokers.

In my 43 years on this earth... with my own personal experience... "Once a pothead, always a pothead" With one exception... he joined the navy in 1981, and became more interested in fitness and training than smoking and doing drugs.

I know of two potheads from high school who are still living at their parents home. We graduated high school in the early 80s, and they have never been able to move out.

I live on a block filled with ex potheads from their teen years... one is in rehab right now. His wife has a "boyfriend" living in their home and driving his truck while he is in rehab. The others still smoke pot and do the occasional drugs. But they are otherwise productive members of society.

I experimented with pot in high school. But, only a few times. I never bought it, it was just passed to me, so I took hits as it went by. SO, you CAN experiment without it becoming a part of your life. But, I still wouldn't allow my daughter to use it with my blessing.

I am NOT saying that your kids will turn into potheads. It is entirely possible that allowing it will take away the desire to smoke pot. Once I was of drinking age, drinking wasn't as much fun anymore. The fun was in getting the beer or wine or boones farm.


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
What are caecenogengs?

I think it was a typo. Carcinogen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcinogen


----------



## FancyD (Apr 22, 2005)

I researched all the drugs I wanted to do when I was 15. I found several more that piqued my interest. And then I proceeded to pound LSD for 18 months. At 15, I was in no way capable of seeing what the long-term consequences would be, and I was a very smart, common-sensical girl.

If a kid wants to get high, there's not much you can do to stop them. But I wouldn't leave it up to the interwebs to educate my kid on the dangers of drug use. Their brains aren't even finished growing, for the love of Pete! How can they make a rational choice when they don't have the neural pathways to do so?


----------



## caspian's mama (Mar 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
What are caecenogengs?

wow. i don't know if you meant it this way or not, but that came across as really snippy.


----------



## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I'm sorry, but how in the world is asking a question snippy?

It's not like it was a simple spelling error or typo and I could still identify the word. I had no idea what that word was. It didn't look like carcinogen, so I had no idea.

I think it is funny that asking what something is is snippy.


----------



## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FancyD* 
If a kid wants to get high, there's not much you can do to stop them. But I wouldn't leave it up to the interwebs to educate my kid on the dangers of drug use. Their brains aren't even finished growing, for the love of Pete! How can they make a rational choice when they don't have the neural pathways to do so?

Yep.







If you're going to make it a homeschooling project, make sure your child is getting information from all "sides." I know that when I research pot on the internet, most sites that come up are those that are very biased in favor of its use.


----------

