# Natural consequence for getting out of bed



## forestrymom (Jul 13, 2006)

Dd has been getting out of her bed over and over and over again, at bedtime and naptime. Usually, I am trying to get the baby to sleep at the same time, so its almost impossible to continue getting up. I tried for several days to delay his naptime so I could repeatedly put her back in and that is not effective. She is clearly tired, so its not that. She has always been difficult to get to sleep, but she went through and "easy" phase so we thought she was ready for the big girl bed and now we have the crib sidecarred to our bed for ds. I really don't want to change that. Having her lie down with ds and I has been tried too--she has never been able to fall asleep with anyone around (well, not since about 12 months). Any ideas?


----------



## hopefulfaith (Mar 28, 2005)

I see your dc is about my son's age (8/05). Our experience was when Adam was right about two years old, he started dropping naps. He hasn't given them up completely, but he doesn't take one every day now.

On days where I put them both down, all three of us snuggle in one bed while I nurse Sarah. Sarah falls asleep nursing and I put her into another bed. Then, I climb back in with Adam and lay with him while he falls asleep. Total time for us: around 30 minutes. It's actually quite nice because it's right around the time of day where it just feels lovely to lay down and rest, even if I am not going to sleep.









On days where only Sarah sleeps, Adam gets to play with special toys during his quiet time. His quiet time is on his bed, and I have never had a problem with him getting up....because the toys he gets to play with during Q.T. are up on high shelves and typically only for him to use during that time. He is so excited about being able to use the toys that he stays on his bed for the requested 30 minutes with them.

Perhaps it is time for her to drop a nap here and there and just have a quiet time for a little bit, and then go to bed a bit earlier in the evening?


----------



## forestrymom (Jul 13, 2006)

Ds won't sleep without me, so I have to lay down with him for every nap. He is awaken easily, too, so no napping in the living room while dd plays. She already has quiet time for a total of 2 hours while ds naps (in 30 minute spurts).. I don't want her to do anymore of it than necessary. AND, she is clearly tired--cranky, meltdowns, mean to ds and the dog, etc, etc.


----------



## nataliebassoon (Feb 20, 2008)

I don't have mama experience with this, but I remember my mom enforcing a "quiet time" for me while my younger brother had his nap all the way through kindergarten.
I didn't have to sleep or even get in my bed, but I had to stay in my room with the door shut and play quietly for 30 minutes or so. Most of the time I ended up falling asleep on the floor. I remember looking forward to quiet time because I could play with whatever (quiet) toys I wanted however I wanted without having to share them with my little brother. I also remember wandering back downstairs from time to time- obviously it wasn't perfect. I'm not sure what she did to get me to go back to my room.
Don't know if "quiet time" will work for your family/situation, but it seemed to work pretty well for us.

Sometimes the pressure of "naptime" and feeling like you have to take a nap actually makes it harder for children to go to sleep, so "quiet time" kind of takes the pressure off.
Sorry, I don't have any advice for the bedtime issues.


----------



## Karamom (Mar 26, 2007)

I know my ds is quite a bit younger than your dd but sometimes we have the same problem of him getting out of bed when its time to sleep. I just make sure the bedroom door is shut and that there is nothing interesting around for him to play with. I try to keep all toys and distractions out of the room. Then I lay down in bed with him and if he gets up I just keep laying still and pretending that I'm sleeping. He will get down and sometimes walk around for several minutes but then he gets tired and bored so he will get back into bed.


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Well the *natural* consequence is not getting enough rest.

-Angela


----------



## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

DD is 29 months and does not nap everyday. I gave up on trying to get her to nap. When she gets super cranky and non stop tantruming, I give her a smoothie or a cup of EBM and put on a video. I know she will be asleep within 1/2 hour.







If she doesn't get cranky I just give her something to do while I get baby to nap. The house is child proofed and she is mostly trustworthy. I make sure I tell her where I am going so she doesn't get frantic when she notices me gone. I don't enforce quiet time or alone time, she isn't ready for that yet. She is super high needs.


----------



## kimbersdawnly (Feb 19, 2007)

What about "walking down" the baby in a sling or mei tai so that DD doesn't have to have quiet time except when it's for her? My daughter (10 1/2 months) has a terrible time napping and wakes easily too, but if I wear her and go about my business it's like magic, even when my 5 year old is being a bum. The other thing that always works for me is putting my older babe in stroller, youngest on my back, then taking a long walk. The continuous motion puts them both to sleep, and though it seems like a lot to go through for a nap, the peace is invaluable, and the exercise for me doesn't hurt!


----------



## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

The natural concequence for her getting out of bed - is her being tired.
That is her issue.
This is more about you though than her.... and we went through the same thing when my DS dropped his naps. So even though you think she is really tired and still needs the nap, chances are she may not - she may well be dropping her nap! Thats how my son did it anyhow. And you know, he was tired - we just had to have about 2 weeks of 'quiet' (sit in the house doing crafts relaxing type days) until he was able to cope with not wanting a nap anymore. And then that was it.... no more naps! (this was 2 weeks before he turned 2 years old as well - compared to a lot of people I know I think he dropped his naps early) - But what can you do? You cant force them. (as much as I liked having the 2 hour afternoon nap myself! lol - yeah...it wasnt a gradual thing either, he went from having 2-3 hour afternoon naps to nothing!... so I know what its like! hehe) He still of course has a nap every now and then - at first it was maybe once every other week - he would just drop dead he was so tired! lol - Now maybe its once a month... But when it happens, its his choice and I know its becuase he is really really tired! (but of course he then will also not go to bed until much later - but when he has a nap on his own like that, I let him sleep - he needs it...and once a month having him stay up until 10-11pm isnt so bad)

For bed - I always have to lay down with my son for him to stay there and get to sleep. He also sleeps in our bed though. Its a very young age and I wouldnt expect him to sleep on his own just yet. And eventually we plan on TTC this December, if I get pregnant right away he will be 4 years old when the baby comes! ... If he is sleeping on his own by then, I do expect him to want to come back into our bed once the baby is born - so thats something to look at as well...the reason why your daughter is doing what she is doing - which sounds to me like its all about the 'baby'. But - since he no longer has his naps...the hour we were having to take trying to get him to go to sleep at night stopped. He now drops off within mintues - sometimes seconds! He will even ask to go to bed or sometimes when I turn my back....hes not there and I find him curled up in bed ready for a story! lol

So relax. When we stop trying to create things in the ideal way we want them to be and just go with the flow (without force)...things become much more easy over time and eventually everything falls into place! At least that is what I have found to be true!


----------



## Greenmama2AJ (Jan 10, 2008)

Rather than punishing with a consequence, try rewarding the behaviour you want.

How about starting a star chart where your LO gets a "present" if they stay in their bed quietly at nap time.
At first, reward your child everytime she stays in bed. The reward needs to be immediate at that age. A fav piece of food, little books, small toys etc when her time is done, might work - ask her what she would like. You wont need to continue the rewards forever, once the behaviour is established you can stop - few children ever even ask.

If she gets up remind her of her choice - "Are you choosing not to have some quiet time in bed and miss out on X"

Once she associates nap times as bringing pleasant rewards she might start to relax, and hopefully, even fall asleep. Remember though - you cant force her to sleep. You cant punish her for not sleeping either. So dont stress over whether she has already had "quiet" time. If she is genuinely tired, give her a nice calm environment to sleep in and let nature to its work. Its all that you can really do


----------



## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greenmama2AJ* 
Rather than punishing with a consequence, try rewarding the behaviour you want.

How about starting a star chart where your LO gets a "present" if they stay in their bed quietly at nap time.
At first, reward your child everytime she stays in bed. The reward needs to be immediate at that age. A fav piece of food, little books, small toys etc when her time is done, might work - ask her what she would like. You wont need to continue the rewards forever, once the behaviour is established you can stop - few children ever even ask.

If she gets up remind her of her choice - "Are you choosing not to have some quiet time in bed and miss out on X"

Once she associates nap times as bringing pleasant rewards she might start to relax, and hopefully, even fall asleep. Remember though - you cant force her to sleep. You cant punish her for not sleeping either. So dont stress over whether she has already had "quiet" time. If she is genuinely tired, give her a nice calm environment to sleep in and let nature to its work. Its all that you can really do









Yikes! - Rewarding behaviour you desire is not really a great idea!

I suggest you read 'Punished by Rewards' by Alfie Kohn. Its a great read and explains why rewards are just as bad as punishments. In fact, they are basically the same coin!

You can google more but here is a quick link to some more on the topic:
http://life.familyeducation.com/puni...ing/29460.html

A quick tidbit from that article:

_A lot of us have been led to believe that we have to choose between this kind and that kind of punishment. We've narrowed the debate down to "Do I spank the kid or do I forcibly isolate him?" Do I think a time-out is better than spanking a kid? Well, sure -- spanking a kid is also better than shooting a kid, but that's not much of an argument for spanking.

*Now, some people move a little bit beyond this and say that the choice is between punishments and rewards*. From my perspective, that's not much of an improvement. *They are just two different ways of doing things to children -- of controlling them, of acting in a way that is manipulative and disrespectful*. The real choice is between doing to and working with. It is clear to me that rewards, including praise as it is normally used, belong on the wrong side of the ledger. We need to move beyond them if we are concerned about the kind of people our kids will turn out to be._


----------



## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ann_of_loxley* 
Yikes! - Rewarding behaviour you desire is not really a great idea!

I suggest you read 'Punished by Rewards' by Alfie Kohn. Its a great read and explains why rewards are just as bad as punishments. In fact, they are basically the same coin!

You can google more but here is a quick link to some more on the topic:
http://life.familyeducation.com/puni...ing/29460.html

A quick tidbit from that article:

_A lot of us have been led to believe that we have to choose between this kind and that kind of punishment. We've narrowed the debate down to "Do I spank the kid or do I forcibly isolate him?" Do I think a time-out is better than spanking a kid? Well, sure -- spanking a kid is also better than shooting a kid, but that's not much of an argument for spanking.

*Now, some people move a little bit beyond this and say that the choice is between punishments and rewards*. From my perspective, that's not much of an improvement. *They are just two different ways of doing things to children -- of controlling them, of acting in a way that is manipulative and disrespectful*. The real choice is between doing to and working with. It is clear to me that rewards, including praise as it is normally used, belong on the wrong side of the ledger. We need to move beyond them if we are concerned about the kind of people our kids will turn out to be._









Rewards & punishments are the same thing, both utterly useless.


----------



## SunshineJ (Mar 26, 2008)

Wow I remember how tough that was! I honestly can say that I think for a long time that was what for me was the hardest part of having 2 - nap time. What I eventually ended up doing, and I fully admit it's probably not the best solution (but when you're desperate you go with what works!) was to get one of the little foam flip out sofas. When it was time for the baby to take a nap, I'd give my oldest a sippy of milk, tell him it was quiet time, and get him set up on his little sofa with his fave 30 min video playing. It took about 15 min to get the baby down, and by the time I was finished with that, I'd discover my oldest was sound asleep as well. Like I said, there are probably better solutions out there, but it did work quite well (and saved my sanity!).


----------



## Lisa85 (May 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SunshineJ* 
Wow I remember how tough that was! I honestly can say that I think for a long time that was what for me was the hardest part of having 2 - nap time. What I eventually ended up doing, and I fully admit it's probably not the best solution (but when you're desperate you go with what works!) was to get one of the little foam flip out sofas. When it was time for the baby to take a nap, I'd give my oldest a sippy of milk, tell him it was quiet time, and get him set up on his little sofa with his fave 30 min video playing. It took about 15 min to get the baby down, and by the time I was finished with that, I'd discover my oldest was sound asleep as well. Like I said, there are probably better solutions out there, but it did work quite well (and saved my sanity!).

This is what we do, and it works wonders along with giving choices. She can stay downstairs and use her normal voice, or she can come upstairs with me while I put the babe down and use her whisper voice. Both times she gets the drink of her choice. Makes her feel more in control I suppose and something to look forward to (picking out what she wants to drink). Usually she chooses to come upstairs with me but we have a very strict rule that if you're too noisy you need to either go into your room or go downstairs.

I think she also understands that once baby is down, she gets 1-1 snuggle time. The quieter she is the faster we get that 1-1 time.


----------



## forestrymom (Jul 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Well the *natural* consequence is not getting enough rest.

-Angela

Well, I actually thought that, but its not an acceptable option. She is wired tight anyway, and without enough rest, she is seriously unbearable. Closing her door isn't an option because she gets terribly upset by it. I bought a baby gate, but we live in a trailer and its too wide for the stupid doors.

I like the idea of quiet time. I also believe that rewards are a natural part of our society, regardless of what Alfie suggests, and I'm not opposed to rewards at certain times. I rewarded her with stickers when I needed her to let me get the baby to sleep and it only took a few days of it. She doesn't want the sticker anymore because she knows the naptime means she can play by herself. While in general I try to look for the natural consequence, I don't believe that life in general is bound by natural consequences.

She has never been the kind of child to drift off. Neither of mine are. I envy the parents of children who can fall asleep on the couch, in the middle of everything. This has NEVER happened with my dd. She is way to interested in everything else that is going on. I don't mind if she drops a nap, either. I just want her to be happy. So, maybe some quiet time in her room is the answer. Thank you for pointing out that telling her its naptime may be putting too much pressure on her to fall asleep!


----------



## Lisa85 (May 22, 2006)

I think you're confusing natural consequence with logical consequence.


----------



## forestrymom (Jul 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lisa85* 
I think you're confusing natural consequence with logical consequence.

Can you explain this?


----------



## Lisa85 (May 22, 2006)

Sure.

Let's say your dc refused to pick up her toys after being asked nicely to do so.

The natural consequences would be she trips over one of the toys and stubs her toe, pieces go missing to some of them because they weren't organized, etc.

A logical consequence would be you telling her that she doesn't need to pick up the toys, but if she doesn't you will. And if you put away the toys, then she won't be getting them back right away.

Does that make sense? A natural consequence is something that just happens. A logical consequence is one that you impose.

For the napping thing, the natural consequence is that she's tired. You didn't cause her to be tired, it's just something that happens when one doesn't get enough sleep. A logical consequence would be that every time she gets out of bed, you put her right back in bed. Or that she gets out, but cannot play with any toys because she should be having quiet/nap time. Maybe she'd get bored and then want to go to her room and read books or something? At least that way she could be doing something.


----------



## forestrymom (Jul 13, 2006)

Thanks! And, in a way, I was looking for both. I thought maybe there was a NC that I was missing that I could explain to her, that might make it easier for her to nap. That's why she picks up her toys--so they don't get lost or stepped on, or chewed on by the dog.

I also wanted to mention that while I do give stickers, I don't point out that it was because of her behavior. I say something like, "W is sleeping now, so lets get you a sticker. When Mommy has time to get W to sleep, she has more time to play with stickers."

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lisa85* 
Sure.

Let's say your dc refused to pick up her toys after being asked nicely to do so.

The natural consequences would be she trips over one of the toys and stubs her toe, pieces go missing to some of them because they weren't organized, etc.

A logical consequence would be you telling her that she doesn't need to pick up the toys, but if she doesn't you will. And if you put away the toys, then she won't be getting them back right away.

Does that make sense? A natural consequence is something that just happens. A logical consequence is one that you impose.

For the napping thing, the natural consequence is that she's tired. You didn't cause her to be tired, it's just something that happens when one doesn't get enough sleep. A logical consequence would be that every time she gets out of bed, you put her right back in bed. Or that she gets out, but cannot play with any toys because she should be having quiet/nap time. Maybe she'd get bored and then want to go to her room and read books or something? At least that way she could be doing something.


----------



## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

IMO, your dd is too young to be able to respond to rewards or punishments (or natural or logical consequences) over sleep. I would guess she's clearly picking up on your irritation over this issue. This is making it even harder for her to settle down, and making you even more irritated. And I have BTDT, and I would say that she's not going to have the self-control for at least another two years to be able to make herself stay in her room so that she can get the reward or avoid the punishment. I would bet that even mainstreamers would agree with me here.

I would set her up with a video, a book on tape, treats, whatever you can so that she'll leave you alone, and concentrate on getting your ds to sleep on his own. Have you tried white noise? Have you read the No Cry Sleep Solution? There's a suggestion in ther for short, light nappers that I've noticed works great. You get them to sleep, lay them down and sneak out, but stay pretty close. The second you hear them stirring, you go right back in and immediately do whatever it took to get them to sleep the first time. This has worked great with my kids, turning 20 minute naps into 2 hours.

I think it's nice to be able to all lay down together, but with one adult and more than one kid in a household, it's just not practical. Once you can get ds to sleep, you can concentrate on dd, because she is too young to give up a nap. This has what has worked for me in your situation.


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
IMO, your dd is too young to be able to respond to rewards or punishments (or natural or logical consequences) over sleep. I would guess she's clearly picking up on your irritation over this issue. This is making it even harder for her to settle down, and making you even more irritated. And I have BTDT, and I would say that she's not going to have the self-control for at least another two years to be able to make herself stay in her room so that she can get the reward or avoid the punishment. I would bet that even mainstreamers would agree with me here.

I would set her up with a video, a book on tape, treats, whatever you can so that she'll leave you alone, and concentrate on getting your ds to sleep on his own. Have you tried white noise? Have you read the No Cry Sleep Solution? There's a suggestion in ther for short, light nappers that I've noticed works great. You get them to sleep, lay them down and sneak out, but stay pretty close. The second you hear them stirring, you go right back in and immediately do whatever it took to get them to sleep the first time. This has worked great with my kids, turning 20 minute naps into 2 hours.

I think it's nice to be able to all lay down together, but with one adult and more than one kid in a household, it's just not practical. Once you can get ds to sleep, you can concentrate on dd, because she is too young to give up a nap. This has what has worked for me in your situation.









:

My dd is about the same age and she just doesn't get it yet. Even if she's TIRED, SAYS she's tired, SAYS she wants to nap, lying in bed for 2 minutes to her means she's napped.

-Angela


----------



## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ann_of_loxley* 
Yikes! - Rewarding behaviour you desire is not really a great idea!

I suggest you read 'Punished by Rewards' by Alfie Kohn. Its a great read and explains why rewards are just as bad as punishments. In fact, they are basically the same coin!

I disagree. In general, I buy Kohn's basic premise: Doing to is not nearly as effective as doing _with_ Yes, I believe that rewards CAN be used manipulatively.

At the same time, rewards for short-term, skill training (potty training, teaching to be quiet while mom puts the baby down for a nap) do work, and you're not going to convince me that they're the "same" as spanking or a time out. In this case, the 'natural' consequence is something that the mom cannot live with (baby not getting to sleep, toddler being overtired), and the child herself has _very little motivation_ to change. The consequences for her aren't that bad. Sometimes rewards can help everyone out -- give the child a short-term motivation, and save a parent's sanity.

However, reward charts don't work until a child is 3 or 3 1/2 simply because they have a hard time thinking ahead far enough.

So, I would recommend something like books on tape, or a music CD. Tell your dd that she needs to stay in her room, quietly on her bed until the CD or tapes are done. When they're done, she can come out. That might keep her still enough to fall asleep if she's tired, and will give her something to do while she rests if she's not.

The other thing you might think about is seeing if you can separate the baby's nap time and dd's naptime a bit. Maybe dd can stay up doing something quiet while you nurse the baby down and then you can keep leading her back to bed if she's not staying on her bed/being quiet.


----------



## Greenmama2AJ (Jan 10, 2008)

_Yikes! - Rewarding behaviour you desire is not really a great idea!_

I understand that some theorists believe rewards are negative - I'm completing a Masters majoring in motivational theory at uni, and I'm a highschool teacher lol







Rewards are extrinsic (external) motivators - and are short lived, need to be immediate and are only really good for influencing behaviour, not enjoyment.

That said - I disagree with the idea that behaviour can not be positively influenced with rewards.

Behavioural cognitive theory quite strongly shows that praise, rewards and reinforcement allow people to "train" certain behaviour. Some people feel strongly against "training" good behaviour - I agree -there is value in children doing something because they have an inner desire to do it, not simply because they are trained for a reward. But under a certain age, children really are too young to reason and do things for the intrinsic or social good.

I strongly believe in praise and positive rewards - and I have seen it work wonderfully with young children and the learning disabled, particularly in behaviour modification.

But do what you like - my real point is that you cant punish someone who wont sleep - only provide an atmosphere to encourage it.


----------



## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Recommending Sleepless in America...an excellent read.


----------



## happygirl6 (Mar 7, 2008)

DS is 3 and is not the easiest to get to sleep. He needs a pretty standard routine at nap time and bed time which involves reading a couple of books and talking about whatever he brings up while I rub his head for a bit. He doesn't nap everyday now but we have also moved to the "quiet time" - no more 'naps'. He climbs into his bed and has books. He knows that he does not have to nap. On days that he is really tired - he falls asleep in ~10 minutes. If he is not as tired, he just rests quietly looking through the books. If I tried to get the nap going without the books and the 'you are not taking a nap - just resting quietly' type talk - I could sit with him quietly for 30min rubbing his head and he still would not sleep. I know that he is older than your daughter so I don't know if this will help. Good luck.


----------



## forestrymom (Jul 13, 2006)

We have a good sleep routine for dd, and that hasn't changed. She got a bed, instead of a crib, and that went really well for 2 months or better. I have read the NCSS, the Jay Gordon method, and Nighttime Parenting twice. We tired all of them with dd and nothing worked. My kids suck during sleep, not just to get to sleep. AND, even if I'm laying there with ds, he wakes up after 30 minutes happy as can be, and will NOT go back to sleep, even if I stay with him for an hour and try. It takes getting up and walking around for an hour for him to be "tired" again and fall asleep. I'm not kidding--my kids just don't sleep. I try to break him of the suck before he falls asleep and he is rooting. I try patting or whatever, and he is crying. So its back on the boob. Then all over again. And again and again and again. I tried it for weeks with dd, and it never changed and still hasn't. I'm not trying to say its not possible, I just feel like I HAVE tried all the gentle methods (and I'm not willing to try anything less gentle). Yesterday he did sleep without me for 15 minute stretches, but that was after he was solidly sleeping and let go of the nipple on his own. And only for 15 minutes--then was happy as can be for another hour or 2. But he has been sleeping crappy at night the past few days so I suspect he is overtired from not getting his nice long naps because I have had to leave him to take care of a cranky non-napping 2yo. I have also tried just letting her do one nap, but then its only 30-45 minutes rather than 2 hour long naps. I just feel like I am failing all the time because I get agitated because I'M tired.

Anyway...things are a mess. I just can't do 2. Period.


----------



## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
Recommending Sleepless in America...an excellent read.









: I thought this was the single most helpful book on sleep out there, and found it to be very helpful. Even though you've read all those other sleep books (and I did too), I still recommend reading this one.


----------

