# 4 yr old DD - won't say sorry, hi, bye, thank you - kind of rude



## eplatt (Jun 13, 2006)

I mostly just wanted to find out if others think this behavior is unacceptable and needs correcting, or if it is just developmentally appropriate and normal for four year olds.

I personally think it is a little rude as an adult to not to say thank you or sorry or hi when someone talks to you, but I also realize four year olds are not adults and that they will eventually learn that when we are rude by not responding to people, it makes them not want to talk to you anymore. I really don't think I should "make" my daughter say things she isn't comfortable saying to people she isn't comfortable saying them to. At four years old though, most people assume she is just being rude not to respond when she is being addressed by them. And she is in her own way - she isn't shy. She is just saying in her own way, "I can decide who and when I want to talk to and you can't make me just because you say something to me." It isn't because she is shy/insecure it is the principle of being asked to do something.

For example, she accidentally poked a little boy in the face with a toy dinosaur at preschool today. She told the teacher it was an accident and the teacher said that if that is the case, we usually say we are "sorry" and asked DD to apologize to the boy. She wouldn't under any circumstance and ended up in time out and couldn't play. DD didn't care - she was not going to say "sorry" no matter what even though it was an accident.

What to do?


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## amcal (Jan 13, 2003)

I have a 4yo and I absolutely think it's appropriate to teach manners. She doesn't get to decide whether or not she apologises for hurting someone. That's a consequence of hurting someone - we say we're sorry. I think this is a hugely important lesson that a child needs to learn at an early age. I also think learning basic manners like please and thank you are hugely important. I can not fathom allowing my child not to apologise if they've hurt someone - strong willed or not, apologizing is the the right thing to do.

Now, my thinking on this would be totally different for an extremely shy child. Then, I don't think you force interacting with others but you've said your child isn't shy so to not apologise or say thank you etc....is coming from a different place so I personally would insist on polite manners.


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## eplatt (Jun 13, 2006)

That is the direction that husband and I are leaning. She needs to learn manners and how to treat people. So, my next question is how do you "make" a child say something. At preschool, even the time out and not being able to play was not enough incentive for her to say "sorry." I guess we just need to find out what is important enough to her but so far she doesn't seem to care about anything enough to motivate or not motivate behavior. We have tried the explaining why and good exampling, but so far, we haven't been succesful. We need more creative ideas!


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## Martha_2sons (Mar 28, 2007)

I have a different perspective which is that I'd like my child to say "sorry" because he truly feels sorry, not just to be polite. I think the best way to "teach" these manners is to model them (and I'm NOT saying that you're not already doing this because I am actually guessing that you do). In my opinion the teacher could have said to the boy that was poked, "I'm so sorry you got poked. Are you okay?" I don't think there was any reason for her to shame your daughter.

Your DC WILL learn that people like to be responded to when they speak to her. And, I think it will be a more powerful lesson if she learns it on her own and not through forced communication.


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## amcal (Jan 13, 2003)

I'm sorry but I totally disagree. I've worked with kids who were not taught polite manners and they are the most unpleasant children. Children by nature are self centered creatures. It's our job as parents to teach them that they are not the center of the universe, that they have to learn to get along with others, to treat each others with respect etc... I completely agree that forcing a child to say sorry without fully discussing it is pointless. I never force my child to just say the words without a discussion on how their behavior affected another person. I think it's just as important to focus on a child's emotional development as it is to focus on educational, social etc....

If my child had hurt another child, we would discuss it - discuss how it made that child feel, how they would feel if someone did that to them, how would an apology make them feel etc.... Obviously, just teaching your child to throw out meaningless words is not the point - the point is to get your child to learn empathy - the help them understand how their behavior makes other people feel and to help them to learn how to right a wrong - not just to pay lip service.


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## moodymaximus (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Martha_2sons* 
I have a different perspective which is that I'd like my child to say "sorry" because he truly feels sorry, not just to be polite. I think the best way to "teach" these manners is to model them (and I'm NOT saying that you're not already doing this because I am actually guessing that you do). In my opinion the teacher could have said to the boy that was poked, "I'm so sorry you got poked. Are you okay?" I don't think there was any reason for her to shame your daughter.

Your DC WILL learn that people like to be responded to when they speak to her. And, I think it will be a more powerful lesson if she learns it on her own and not through forced communication.

this is our approach as well--we modelled a lot and never forced, and at 4 DD would have been considered "rude" by many. DD is 5.5 and 80% of the time she is polite and considering, and is doing well with discrete reminders. what i enjoy most--her politeness is true to her heart, it is not forced or rehearsed. as she gest older, we talk about manners often, and i'm sure she will soon grasp the concept.

also, i don't insist she responds to every "hi" of strangers, as people can be quite intrusive with their "small talk". i tell her that if she doesn't feel like talking to them, she doesn't have to.


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## LaLaLaLa (Oct 29, 2007)

I've read somewhere that some kids are reluctant to say sorry because then it kind of proves that they are to blame (bunch of little lawyers, kids these days!). Some kids feel like if something was an accident but they say sorry anyway, then there might be other punishments doled out.

After reading that, we started in our household saying "sorry" ALL the time. Every time one of our kids (dd 3 years, ds 21 months) trips, falls, bumps themselves, cries.... we immediately say sorry. "Oh, dd, you tripped over your shoes! I'm so sorry! Are you okay?" "Ds, you are upset we aren't reading one more book before bed. I'm sorry! Would you like a hug?" Sorry, sorry, sorry, for when we cause problems as well as when something upsetting or painful just happens. "I'm sorry" is becoming something said out of empathy, not necessarily something said to accept responsibility. Thus far for us it is working; I don't know if this same method would work for anyone else's kids.

We trained our kids early to say "thank you" as well, although my ds still needs a great deal of prompting. "Hi" and "bye" we also sometimes struggle with, but we're working on it.


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amcal* 
I'm sorry but I totally disagree. I've worked with kids who were not taught polite manners and they are the most unpleasant children. Children by nature are self centered creatures. It's our job as parents to teach them that they are not the center of the universe, that they have to learn to get along with others, to treat each others with respect etc... I completely agree that forcing a child to say sorry without fully discussing it is pointless. I never force my child to just say the words without a discussion on how their behavior affected another person. I think it's just as important to focus on a child's emotional development as it is to focus on educational, social etc....

If my child had hurt another child, we would discuss it - discuss how it made that child feel, how they would feel if someone did that to them, how would an apology make them feel etc.... Obviously, just teaching your child to throw out meaningless words is not the point - the point is to get your child to learn empathy - the help them understand how their behavior makes other people feel and to help them to learn how to right a wrong - not just to pay lip service.

I completely agree.


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## AuntNi (Feb 26, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amcal* 
I'm sorry but I totally disagree. I've worked with kids who were not taught polite manners and they are the most unpleasant children. Children by nature are self centered creatures. It's our job as parents to teach them that they are not the center of the universe, that they have to learn to get along with others, to treat each others with respect etc... I completely agree that forcing a child to say sorry without fully discussing it is pointless. I never force my child to just say the words without a discussion on how their behavior affected another person. I think it's just as important to focus on a child's emotional development as it is to focus on educational, social etc....

If my child had hurt another child, we would discuss it - discuss how it made that child feel, how they would feel if someone did that to them, how would an apology make them feel etc.... Obviously, just teaching your child to throw out meaningless words is not the point - the point is to get your child to learn empathy - the help them understand how their behavior makes other people feel and to help them to learn how to right a wrong - not just to pay lip service.

ITA with this! My DD is now 5 1/2, but we've been working on manners since before she could talk (in age appropriate ways.) Our current rule is that if someone speaks to her, she must respond. She doesn't have to get into a huge conversation or be Best Friends Forever with them.







Just a "hi" or "fine." But it's a firm rule, and there are consequences if she refuses.

We also insist she says "please" and "thank you." She does say "sorry," but we're still working on the sincerity factor there.









I'm finding that consistency is the key. I've told her I don't care if she's in a bad mood - she still has to display manners, because that's what people do. She constantly gets compliments on her manners, so something must be working. I don't want to turn her into a little robot, but I think there's far too much incivility in this world, and we need to do our part to not contribute to that vibe.

One more quick note to the OP: I freely confess that at 4, DD's manners were much spottier than they are now. I just kept plugging away, and I've seen such an improvement this year.


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## moodymaximus (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AuntNi* 

One more quick note to the OP: I freely confess that at 4, DD's manners were much spottier than they are now. I just kept plugging away, and I've seen such an improvement this year.

interestingly we did the complete opposite--we only modeled, and at 4 never even probed--thouogh we did talk about manners we never insisted, and would say "please and thank you" for her, if she wasn't in the mood. yet at 5.5 she is also complimented on manners!

so there is more than one way to get to a desirable result!


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## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

op, i would personally be very upset if i found out that my child's care provider put her in a time out, especially for something like this.

children don't "learn" how to become polite by being shamed and punished, in fact, i would argue that this would only create a feeling of resentment towards others.

sincere politeness and respect comes from within, and to that end the best way to instill this in our children is to model it without forcing them to say things.

imo saying that a 4 year old child that doesn't consistently say sorry, hello, goodbye, thank you etc. is RUDE is ascribing adult behavior to children, instead of recognizing that this is developmentally normal for children this age.

my advice is just to continue modeling as much as possible. but punishing/consequences for not saying those things? imo that needs to stop.

sorry for the long post, and thanks for listening!


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Our son was very very much like this at 4. He's still a bit like this at 6 1/2.

Ds hates being put on the spot and will not perform for anyone. I feel strongly that he should not be forced to perform. But I feel equally strongly that he needs to learn to look outside himself and see the effects of his actions on others. It's a weak point for him, and so he needs a lot of extra coaching. Our experience has been that:

1. We need to explicitly teach what other people think if you don't say hello/goodbye, sorry, etc. Ds didn't want to say "sorry" because he was embarrassed (usually) or just plain old mad. We've spent a lot of time after accidents explaining that "when you don't acknowledge that you've hurt me, it makes me think you wanted to hurt me, and that makes me mad/sad." Or when we meet people: "When your friends say "hi" and you don't respond, they might think that you don't like them." I never give this information for strangers. For people we don't know, he's free to choose to interact or not.

2. Note the word "acknowledge" in the previous point. For ds, it was extremely important for us to give him non-verbal options for performing these social rituals. So, when someone said "hello" I would ask him "Can you say hi, or wave?" Usually he'd eek out a little wave. Sometimes he wouldn't do either. When that happened, I'd say "Ok, not today" and move on. That was more for MY benefit than his, because it showed the other adults that I was trying to instill manners.

When he hurts someone, he has to make amends - either by saying "sorry" (which he's never done in a highly emotionally charged atmosphere), giving them a hug, or now that he can write, by writing a note. We will sit with him until he's calmed down enough to do so.

3. I woulds argue that for some kids (our son) modeling is not enough. Our dd (who is 3) has picked up all of these phrases without ANY explicit instruction. I used to wonder what was wrong with our parenting because our ds did not. It took me awhile to realize that this behavior does not come naturally to him. So, we've worked a lot on in -- both at the moment and in play. Ds and I actually played a game once or twice, where he would "run into" me (not hard), I would "scream" in agony, he would say "sorry" and run away to do it again. This kind of game made the word less scary for him. It kind of developed on the spur of the moment, but I kept it going longer than I might have otherwise because I recognized the benefits to him. We played with different toys saying "Hello" and "Goodbye" over and over to teach him the scripts.

I think that the preschool teacher in the OP should have sought ought other ways for a 4 year old to make amends. The consequence seems a bit extreme. But I understand the desire to teach her about the consequences of not saying 'sorry'. Some children will not do these important social rituals without a lot of practice and coaching. At 6, I will hear an occasional "sorry" escape ds' lips when he bumps into his sister while they are playing. He says hi and goodbye. He gives relatives a hug. He will even sometimes answer questions posed by complete strangers. Some of this is development. Some of this is coaching.


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## spirit4ever (Nov 4, 2004)

well, I think that it is very important to teach manners, and to say 'I'm sorry'.. I say it to my kids all the time when I've done something I shouldn't, and when they've done something, they understand that saying you sorry is the right thing to do. The behavior is learned.

My youngest ds (almost 3) is extremely rude and yells at people (for everything, from them just saying 'hi' to asking a question) "I"M NOT TALKING TO YOU, YOUR RUDE"... and that behavior is unexceptable, and I know that he knows that, so I scoop him up and tell him to say that he was sorry for yelling like that, it hurts peoples ears and feelings... after about a good solid week of doing that the behavior has improved immensely. I also would not let him do anything else until he atleast awknowledged that what he did was wrong.

I would not have put the child in time out though!


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## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
. Some children will not do these important social rituals without a lot of practice and coaching.

ita. that is very true. thank you so much for sharing your story. the thing that i like about your perspective is that instead of coercing him to say something, you are continuing to model and also offer age-appropriate reasoning/rationalizations during 'teachable moments' while also supporting your son's personality *and* while also maintaining his dignity. what a tall order to fill, mama, and you're doing it beautifully!!


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## Elastagirl (May 24, 2005)

Both my kids are pretty good at saying please and thank you. Lots of modeling happened for them to catch on. On the other hand, I completely agree with the posters who have said that it's more important for "Sorry" to be sincere. my 4 yo will say "Sorry" at the drop of a hat, but he does it now almost as a reflex to avoid taking responsibility. ("Ds, you grabbed that toy from your sister." "But I said, 'Sorry!'") See what I mean?

We're actually trying to avoid too many "Sorrys" and focus on fixing the mistake or making the other person feel better; no sorry required!


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## WonderWild (May 13, 2004)

I lean towards trying to make sure he uses his manners. That means when he asks me for something I like for him to ask me please & to tell me thank you. I also do the same with him. I don't bark orders at him and expect the same in return. I say thank you to him to show my appreciation for something he's done and I'd like the same in return.

I noticed at daycare that whenever we come in or leave all the workers are saying hi & bye and most even say it directly to him and he totally ignores them. I always say hi & bye on his behalf to them but I also talk to him about the fact that people appreciate it when you say hi & bye in return. It's a work in progress and I think it's an important lesson to learn.

As for the apologizing I do ask him for an apology when he does something inappropriate to me or someone else. Most of the time he will clam up at first but if I just give him a minute or two to process the situation he comes around and apologizes.


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## CarrieMF (Mar 7, 2004)

At her age hi, bye, please, thank-you are more important(and more likely to happen) than sorry. I would start with hi, by, please & thank you then move onto you're welcome & sorry


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## kindacrunchy (Jun 25, 2004)

to the op, a child can be introverted and not be shy or insecure. my son is introverted. he needs to process things and when put on the spot he won't "perform". I, too, don't want him to say sorry to be polite but to really mean sorry/. I hear "sorry" coming out of some kids mouths in a totally snitty and obnoxious way. A similar situation happened with my son last week. He typicaly is not an aggressive kid and he bopped a classmate on the head. He said it was an accident, the teacher told him she didn't believe him, told him to say sorry, he didn't and she put him in time-out. I finally got to the root of the situation and I am working with him on it. I suggested he draw a picture for his friend. His friend is over it.
Anyway, that is my two cents.


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## MommyTeesa (Jun 13, 2006)

Just wanna chime in and say just because a child doesn't act politely doesn't mean the parent isn't teaching, discussing, modeling, etc etc etc. and hasn't done so for years, even before the child could speak much. My 4.5 yo is very much like OP's child and I do discuss and model, etc. and she still acts 'rudely' at times. Some kids just refuse to act 'politely' even though they VERY well know they should. Is it as a way to assert their independence from a parent (who is watching and getting upset by their rude behavior)? I get very embarassed and I bet she knows that. And I wonder how far I should go to get her to act with civility.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kidspiration* 

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
. Some children will not do these important social rituals without a lot of practice and coaching.

ita. that is very true. thank you so much for sharing your story. the thing that i like about your perspective is that instead of coercing him to say something, you are continuing to model and also offer age-appropriate reasoning/rationalizations during 'teachable moments' while also supporting your son's personality *and* while also maintaining his dignity. what a tall order to fill, mama, and you're doing it beautifully!!

Thanks you made my day! A lot of it is fundamental AP philosophy: Listening and responding to your child.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kindacrunchy* 
to the op, a child can be introverted and not be shy or insecure. my son is introverted. he needs to process things and when put on the spot he won't "perform". I, too, don't want him to say sorry to be polite but to really mean sorry/. I hear "sorry" coming out of some kids mouths in a totally snitty and obnoxious way.

Yes, our son is an introvert as well, and I'm sure that this plays a big role in his refusal to 'perform'. And I'd rather have him understand why someone is upset than toss off a meaningless 'sorry'.


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## attachedmamaof3 (Dec 2, 2006)

We don't "teach" manners...but our kids (so far) have picked up on our modeling because DP and I are pretty polite people. Also, in situations where an apology is necessary (such as in the above examples) I say that I'm sorry to the child and the parent and make sure DC know it and hear what I'm doing. Teaching them to say they're sorry when they're not doesn't really make sense to me. I personally would much rather recieve a heartfelt "Omigosh, I am so sorry about that" from a parent than a mumbled obviously forced apology from a toddler.

IMO, at age 4 forced apologies are really a non-issue and could quickly turn into a pointless power struggle. I would hope my child would see how sorry I am and how the other child felt and would actually FEEL sorry the next time around.


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## OakBerry (May 24, 2005)

To the OP, I think you have gotten alot of good advice so far. I'm taking notes too, I am having the same issues with my 5 year old ds right now.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
Our son was very very much like this at 4. He's still a bit like this at 6 1/2.

Ds hates being put on the spot and will not perform for anyone. I feel strongly that he should not be forced to perform. But I feel equally strongly that he needs to learn to look outside himself and see the effects of his actions on others. It's a weak point for him, and so he needs a lot of extra coaching. Our experience has been that:

1. We need to explicitly teach what other people think if you don't say hello/goodbye, sorry, etc. Ds didn't want to say "sorry" because he was embarrassed (usually) or just plain old mad. We've spent a lot of time after accidents explaining that "when you don't acknowledge that you've hurt me, it makes me think you wanted to hurt me, and that makes me mad/sad." Or when we meet people: "When your friends say "hi" and you don't respond, they might think that you don't like them." I never give this information for strangers. For people we don't know, he's free to choose to interact or not.

2. Note the word "acknowledge" in the previous point. For ds, it was extremely important for us to give him non-verbal options for performing these social rituals. So, when someone said "hello" I would ask him "Can you say hi, or wave?" Usually he'd eek out a little wave. Sometimes he wouldn't do either. When that happened, I'd say "Ok, not today" and move on. That was more for MY benefit than his, because it showed the other adults that I was trying to instill manners.

When he hurts someone, he has to make amends - either by saying "sorry" (which he's never done in a highly emotionally charged atmosphere), giving them a hug, or now that he can write, by writing a note. We will sit with him until he's calmed down enough to do so.

3. I woulds argue that for some kids (our son) modeling is not enough. Our dd (who is 3) has picked up all of these phrases without ANY explicit instruction. I used to wonder what was wrong with our parenting because our ds did not. It took me awhile to realize that this behavior does not come naturally to him. So, we've worked a lot on in -- both at the moment and in play. Ds and I actually played a game once or twice, where he would "run into" me (not hard), I would "scream" in agony, he would say "sorry" and run away to do it again. This kind of game made the word less scary for him. It kind of developed on the spur of the moment, but I kept it going longer than I might have otherwise because I recognized the benefits to him. We played with different toys saying "Hello" and "Goodbye" over and over to teach him the scripts.

I think that the preschool teacher in the OP should have sought ought other ways for a 4 year old to make amends. The consequence seems a bit extreme. But I understand the desire to teach her about the consequences of not saying 'sorry'. Some children will not do these important social rituals without a lot of practice and coaching. At 6, I will hear an occasional "sorry" escape ds' lips when he bumps into his sister while they are playing. He says hi and goodbye. He gives relatives a hug. He will even sometimes answer questions posed by complete strangers. Some of this is development. Some of this is coaching.

Lynn,
I always pay close attention to your posts about your ds, because I see many similarities in my own ds. He is the same way, will not perform for anyone, not even us sometimes. I can see that the proper feelings are present (he is extremely sensitive) but has such a hard time expressing his emotions verbally. He can expound on any other topic though.








My question to you is, does your ds do this to close family members?
My ds has seen my mother and father at least once a week since birth, and he is reluctant (to the point of being forced) to say "hello", "goodbye", "thank you", and all out refuses to hug or kiss them.
I do not force hugging and kissing, not ever. But I tell him that it's appropriate to hug and kiss grandma and grandpa if he wants to. (we are also discussing strangers, respect for his body etc)
But the way he is to my mom really bugs me, it is rude, imo. I've tried modeling, not shaming. Him waving hello and goodby worked for a little bit, but not anymore. He will chatter away to her when he forgets himself and she is playing with him. But when it comes to hello/goodbye/thank you, he just refuses. He also will ignore her when she asks him a question sometimes, unless it involves candy or a present.







: And to make it worse, when he's in this type of situation, he scowls. I know part of it is because he's embarrassed. I try to role play with him, but he tells me that he doesn't want to do that and to leave him alone!
My mother loves him so much, and is so sweet and good to him. (his other grandma is much more stilted and he barely sees her)
And my mother is almost 80, and pretty "old school" when it comes to discipline. She is patient with ds when he acts that way, but I know it hurts her feelings a bit. I know, the gentle discipline advocates would say "she should get over it", but this behavior has been going on for a long time now, and she is not going to be around many more years.

Anyway, sorry to the op for getting off topic, but this is something that has been bothering me as well.


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## eplatt (Jun 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MommyTeesa* 
Just wanna chime in and say just because a child doesn't act politely doesn't mean the parent isn't teaching, discussing, modeling, etc etc etc. and hasn't done so for years, even before the child could speak much. My 4.5 yo is very much like OP's child and I do discuss and model, etc. and she still acts 'rudely' at times. Some kids just refuse to act 'politely' even though they VERY well know they should. Is it as a way to assert their independence from a parent (who is watching and getting upset by their rude behavior)? I get very embarassed and I bet she knows that. And I wonder how far I should go to get her to act with civility.









I think this is exactly what is going on and that may be why I am having such an issue with it. This is the way DD can be independent. This is the battle she has chosen. So, I kind of wonder if I fight this battle or not.

Lynn - thanks for all the ideas and ways to teach. Lots of info - thank you.

I suppose if we just continue model, teach, discuss, show, learn, etc. without making it a fight, DD will eventually quit fighting this battle and move on and will also have learned appropriate and kind behavior in the meantime because she can't help but learn it even while she is rebelling against it at the same time.

Thanks for all the different ideas and ways to deal with it.
Eliz


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