# Please help me... I'm in tears typing this



## beccalou79 (Mar 16, 2007)

After nearly two hours, my daughter is asleep. The second hour was filled with nonstop screaming and thrashing, and I'm quite frankly at the end of my rope with it all, which is why I'm posting here for help, advice, anything. We've co-slept her entire life (she's two) and I've never left her to CIO, but everyone has their breaking point and I think I reached mine tonight. I got right in her face at one point and screamed, "BE QUIET!!!" Which of course did no good, but only added fuel to the fire-- not to mention, filled me with shame that I gave in to the urge to do that. It's actually the third time I've done that in the last couple of weeks, and I am not normally a yeller or screamer. But that's just how stressed I'm getting with all this-- I can't imagine the levels of cortisol that must be flooding my body right now, not to mention hers.

I guess my thought process tonight is-- what good is it for me to lay there (with my poor four-month-old, I might add, who would LOVE to go to sleep but can't with her sister having an ear-splitting tantrum) and endure this screaming (and be pushed to scream myself) when I could just leave the room and at least get some distance from the situation? If she's going to scream either way (and lately she's doing it more often than not at bedtime), then why should I have to listen to it?

I've been putting up with these progressively worsening sleep habits of hers for a year now (she's been more and more difficult to get to sleep since she turned one), and I'm just losing my ability to cope. It's really, really affecting me-- and it doesn't help that once she falls asleep, she kicks like a mule half the night, to the point that my husband (who's a resident and needs his zzzz's) has started to sleep on the couch, something we swore we'd never let happen.

I believe in co-sleeping, I really do, but this whole situation makes me angrier and more resentful than I've ever felt before-- so can I really keep arguing to myself that co-sleeping under these conditions is healthier than just going the CIO route? She has to know I'm enraged, and tonight she fell asleep a foot or so away from me (when normally she lays as close to me as she can) so I can't believe this is any healthier for our relationship than CIO.

Don't get me wrong here-- I don't WANT to CIO, and I can't imagine how I'd ever be able to ignore her cries from behind the bedroom door. So I don't even know why I'm asking you all if I should do it. But I am seriously at my breaking point.

WHAT CAN I DO???

P.S. For anyone who thinks I can talk this kid into sleeping in her own little bed (which we have at the foot of our big bed, by the way), I'm so sorry, but that's less likely to happen than her going to sleep on Mars. I am not kidding when I say she has a will of iron, and if she doesn't want to do something, only sheer exhaustion (hours later) will stop her. And she has no interest on sleeping on anything besides our king-size bed.

P.P.S. Also, yes, I've tried to put her on a schedule. Doesn't work with her. The only thing that almost always guarantees a nice, no-tears bedtime is not making her take a nap in the morning-- which worked nicely for a while but then she started making clear that she needed a nap again, and I'm not going to deny her that.

P.P.P.S. My husband's schedule changes from month to month, and when he's here, he helps as much as he can. But he's usually not home in the evenings. I'm on my own, and I've never felt this isolation more acutely in my life.


----------



## phillychiquita (Feb 14, 2006)

Sending you hugs mama.
I wish I knew what to say. I don't.
But hang in there and know you are in my thoughts.


----------



## MamabearTo4 (May 31, 2006)

Oh, no! That's the last thing the two of you need right before you fall asleep!









It's so smart of you to be looking for other options, mama. You're doing the right thing. Tonight was so crappy for you, huh? You need to figure something out so that the nighttime routine doesn't push everyone in the house past exhaustion.

How about laying in her bed with her until she dozes off, then getting into your bed alone? Maybe leave a nightlight in the hall or her room in case she wakes? If she does wake and wanders the house, take her back to her room, quietly, and lay with her again. It's worth a shot...

I'm one to talk - it's 9:15p and I'm still herding cats to bed!







I'll certainly be thinking of you, dear.


----------



## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

nak, that sounds so hard. I've yelled too, not proud of it, but I can only take so much. The only thing that has helped is eliminating schedules of any kind. She sleeps when she's tired. She wont if she's not. She has put herself on a schedule of sorts, but it does change from day to day. She generally falls asleep at about 10 pm, wakes at about 8 am, and naps anywhere from 1-3. oh geez she's going nuts, I'll come back to finish in a sec...


----------



## Andiad (Nov 6, 2006)

Big Hugs Mama!! I'm so sorry you're having to go through this.

Some questions so that hopefully I can help out a bit...Do you have a routine for her at bedtime? Not necessarily a schedule but a routine like snack, bath, stories etc. Does she have a set time for bed or do you try and follow her when she seems tired? I'm not advocating for or against these things---just wanting to get a little more info. on what your evening looks like so I can try and help.
At two I imagine she is somewhat verbal....what is she saying to you when she's having her tantrums and not going to sleep? Is she asking for anything or just crying?

I'm not sure I'll have any great suggestions but a little more info. will help.

Big hugs again!!!!


----------



## Cyndi33 (May 27, 2005)

Just wanted to say ive been there and totally understand the feeling of frustration and sometimes anger with the sleep thing.
I wish I had some great advice, the only thing that really works for my daughter is totally wearing her out b/c she is so energtic.
I hope it gets better soon!


----------



## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

It will pass. I promise it will. DD was a pretty um... interesting sleeper -- and tons of things would interrupt her sleep -- developmental leap, teeth (could your dd be getting her 2 year molars?), overstimulation, understimulation (if we just hung around the house all day she hadn't gotten enough activity and wasn't as sleepy) and a host of other reasons.

We live consensually so we don't force a bedtime, but we do gently encourage a loose schedule based on her natural rhythms -- what has helped us is to do a few things:

We have a routine that we do nearly every night -- it isn't mandatory or forced, but we make it so enjoyable that dd looks forward to it. Eat Dinner, take a bath, play around on the bed (tickle, crawl, laugh, sing), read a couple of books, have a small, non messy snack in bed (while reading), then cup/bottle of milk after lights out. It takes about an hour and a half from start to finish, but she typically falls asleep in less than 10 minutes now, down from over two hours in the past.

We use homeopaths -- chamomille tea, rescue remedy, lavender-filled cloth tea bag in her pillow and lavender in the bath, calm's forte etc --- not all of them every single night







but on particular nights it seems to be more difficult for her...

If she hasn't fallen alseep within 20-30 minutes (rare nowadays) we turn on the light (a small dim lamp, not harsh) and play/read/sing whatever for a few more minutes. This sounds SUPER counter-productive but for us, it wasn't. It was really cool actually. Almost like dd was thinking "okay cool let me just do this last thing...ahhh... now I am ready to sleep" lol

We have been known to drive a sleepy toddler around to get her to sleep









The times when she really didn't want to go to sleep, we let her stay awake -- that's how it works in our family, no one is forced to do anything -- but I tell you, no matter how you parent, it can save your sanity. She would come out and play with something for a while and typically come up on my lap when she was ready to sleep -- when asleep I would transfer her to our bed.

Also, we aren't against tv, but what helped was quiet time in the evening, not refusing it per se but encouraging tv viewing earlier in the day (if the tv is on at all







) and gently moving toward more quiet, no electronic, low light activities in the evening.

Seriously, dropping her nap did wonders. It sucked for a while but it was so worth it. Of course, I don't force my child to stay awake if she is tired!!! ...but naps were getting to be later and later in the day. Now, she rarely naps in the day unless we have a particularly wild day (like going to the beach all day she will fall asleep in the car on the way home). Initially, around 4pm would be tantrum city, but now she is adjusted to not napping (thought of course she is free to lay down and rest whenever she wants!)....

We went from nap in the daytime and midnight bedtimes to dropping the nap and now she is asleep by 8 typically -- unless of course, she is having a developmental leap (last week was he!! for sleeping!) or something of that nature.

Of course, things like caffeine/sugar/artificial dyes/food sensitivities can all affect sleep in babes. I am sure you considered that but just throwing it out there.

Also, another thing that helped us was to have a fan on in the room for *white noise* -- that, and keeping the room DARK. The apt complex next to us has this massive light on at night that shines into our bedroom -- we really had to cover that with extra curtains, a black sheet behind the curtains, the shades down -- you get the picture. Even a little light can disrupt sleep.

As far as transitioning to the other bed, I would have her fall asleep in your bed, then transfer her to the other bed if she will not wake up. Even just laying there to read books/do nighttime rituals, even if she gets back in the king bed, would help her develop good feelings toward the other bed.

Please don't let your toddler CIO... I feel your pain, I do, I have been there in feeling how you do (though admittedly, with only one child... two must be way hard







) ... there was a time dh and I would say to eachother, it will never get better.... but it did.. so much better....

The thing is dd was feeling our energy around sleeping and wanting her to sleep and wanting her to sleep so we could get a break and so I could be "off duty" and all that -- coupled with my conflicting feelings -- on one hand we don't force anything in our home, we live very consensually... then on the other I was putting all this unspoken pressure on her to sleep at a certain time -- when I released it (pretty early on I had to lol) ... when I just said, ya know what, she will sleep when she is tired and regulate herself.... guess what, she did. Yes, we helped make it the most comfortable, easy process, but she did.

Good luck mama and be gentle on yourself and on your babe.

Congrats on your new babe too


----------



## beccalou79 (Mar 16, 2007)

Thank you all so much for the quick responses. Just knowing that there are people out there willing to listen brings me great comfort. I needed those "hugs"!

MamabearTo4, you have a great suggestion, but her bed is toddler-sized and I can't fit onto it, which is why we haven't had any success with getting her to sleep on it in the past. You've got me thinking, though, that maybe we should save up for a bigger bed meant just for her-- it's not at all in the budget, but desperate times call for desperate measures!

mommy2abigail, I wish I had the guts to let go of my (attempts to) schedule. Maddie's the type of kid, though, that would happily stay awake till midnight if I'd let her, and I've got to go to bed before then-- my newborn wakes up anywhere from 6-7:30 a.m. and once she's up, I have to get up, too.

Andiad, we do have a bedtime routine, and it starts loosely around 6-6:30 p.m. with dinner, followed by a shower, followed by getting dressed (and sometimes letting her play in her room a little bit while I try to get the baby to sleep), followed by bedtime stories and prayers. Then I turn out the lights, turn on some white noise, give her a bottle of warm milk and lay down next to her with a paci in my hand, ready to give her when she finishes her milk. When the stars line up just right, she pops the paci in her mouth, curls up against me and is out like a light. Nine times out of ten, though, she starts babbling and grabbing at her toes and running her hands along the wall, etc.... As for what she says when she has her tantrum, it's really hard to tell because she's so upset. I know that tonight it was because she kept playing with her bottle (after she'd drank it all) to stay awake, and finally (after warning her several times to stop) I took it away. Twenty minutes into the ensuing tantrum, I was really tempted to give the bottle back... but I don't want her to think tantrums are great for getting her way. Sigh...


----------



## beccalou79 (Mar 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
The thing is dd was feeling our energy around sleeping and wanting her to sleep and wanting her to sleep so we could get a break and so I could be "off duty" and all that

This, too, I think is part of our problem. My baby's usually awake while Maddie naps in the morning, so I don't get a break until both of them are asleep at night-- and my personality's such that I need alone time like I need oxygen. I'm sure Maddie feels that desperation coming off of me in waves... but I don't know how to stop it.

Your comment, too, about "understimulation (if we just hung around the house all day she hadn't gotten enough activity and wasn't as sleepy)" also hit home with me. My husband and I share a truck, but recently his hours have made it impossible for me to get out during the day-- so we're stuck here in our townhome, and even though Maddie has a ton of toys, I know she gets bored here. I try to play with her throughout the day, but I also have to tend to Bryce (my baby), so... yeah. I think there's definitely an understimulation component to all this.


----------



## carla72 (Aug 6, 2005)

I'm sorry you are going trhough this. I know it doesn't help to hear it gets better but IT GETS BETTER. I was reading your post remembering posting for help a year ago. My dd is 3 and ds is 12 months now and things are great now. It is tough to go through but it will get easier.


----------



## Genesis (Jan 8, 2007)




----------



## reezley (May 27, 2006)

When ds1 was 2 years 3 months old, the sleep issue was forced with the arrival of ds2. I had to nurse the baby to sleep, at whatever time he needed it, so I simply couldn't do ds1's bedtime the way we had before - by lying with him until he went to sleep. There were a couple attempts that ended in toddler exhausted, inconsolable and unreasonable, and newborn crying! (I had to be lying down facing him, he had to be able to reach my hair, etc. - things I just couldn't do while nursing baby.) Not helpful for anyone to get to sleep. Luckily, ds1 was old enough to get used to a more independent way of getting to sleep.

After the old way of doing things just wouldn't work, I explained to ds1 that there would be a new way. The new way would be all the same bedtime stuff as before - pjs, book, story, song, kisses, etc. - but instead of lying down, Mommy tucks him in (I had to tell him what that means!) and then goes out of the room, and then checks on him in a minute. If he's not asleep when I check, then I give one more kiss and check again in another minute.
We talked about it a couple times during the day so he was prepared for it at night. The first couple nights were hard, he did cry. I didn't want to leave him crying, but a couple times, with baby tired and wailing too, I told ds1, in the most matter-of-fact and loving way I could muster, that I HAD to go but that I'd check on him, and told him to put his head on his pillow, close his eyes, think about nice things, etc. He didn't lie in his room crying- he did try to close his eyes a bit. The first few nights I checked on him probably 10 times, hobbling back and forth to the room while nursing baby, before he was asleep. After a week or so he really "got" the new way. Now we "check" sometimes only once before he's asleep.

Dropping the nap helps a lot too. It's a trade-off, but I'll take the easy bedtime any day. DS1 dropped his nap at just about 2yo. He did fall asleep in a tired tantrum at 5:45 a few times, but he got past that too.

Another thing we do now is put on a nice music tape - and his white noise or cricket sounds are still playing too. He likes Raffi, for some reason he finds it lulling. He's almost always asleep before the tape clicks off.

Good luck. Basically I think 2yo is old enough to understand and take in some reasoning and learning a new way to go about things. We're still tackling the middle of the night wakings, which can sometimes still be hairy, but bedtime has become soooo much easier.


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

What happens if you just wait to put her to bed until it's time for you to go to bed and just all go to bed together? I know then you lose the alone time, but is a 2 hour fight worth it?










-Angela


----------



## Tasya (Nov 8, 2006)

I do understand you sooo much! having a baby and a toddler is quite challenging and eye opening!
I am going through this right now ...Awhhh
And being normally very patient person Sometimes I feel like I can't do it anymore. And it's not only the bed.. everything: meals, bath, outing...
Just a thought I have to do it by myself and it's not the end..
But when will it be?

I do feel like I need help right now otherwise I can just loose it ...


----------



## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Oh mama, my 2 1/2 year old is going through a similar phase lately! I've resorted to babywearing her to sleep again, although maybe that's not possible for you with a baby. Something else that occasionally works for us is to do the whole nighttime routine and then give DD choice--she can either lie down with us and close her eyes or she can stay up as long as she wants and play with her toys in her room. Usually, she picks the toy option, and we turn on a nightlight and she brings all her favorite toys in our bed. I tell her I'll be right outside the door, and I always go back in if she cries at all. She usually falls asleep after about 15 minutes of playing with her toys, but sometimes she calls me back in and we snuggle to sleep. It's weird, but lately we find that it's actually harder sometimes for her to fall asleep if we're there. Maybe it could be worth a try.


----------



## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *reezley* 
Dropping the nap helps a lot too. It's a trade-off, but I'll take the easy bedtime any day.

Good luck. Basically I think 2yo is old enough to understand and take in some reasoning and learning a new way to go about things.

I agree with these points. I would definitely drop the nap if it makes bedtime go more smoothly. My son napped until he was 4, but I know kids who drop their naps much earlier than that. We dropped the nap when bedtime became difficult because he was clearly not tired enough.

Do you put your newborn down at night around the same time? Maybe you could have your daughter play in her room while you put the baby down. Then you can sit outside of where ever she is while she lies down to sleep and read or do whatever it is you need to in order to get that alone time....you'd just be near enough to her to be reassuring. We did that with our son when he was about 2...we would sometimes be sitting there for quite awhile but it was nice to read and he felt safe and secure.

Good luck with it....I know it's so hard and isolating. And I know that you know it will get better, but we're all here to reassure you that this is very true. It will get better and sleep won't be such a struggle.


----------



## astrophe27 (Aug 27, 2007)

Quote:

.The only thing that almost always guarantees a nice, no-tears bedtime is not making her take a nap in the morning-- which worked nicely for a while but then she started making clear that she needed a nap again, and I'm not going to deny her that.
I don't get this. If you _know_ this works... why not go back to this?

You say you won't deny her that morning nap, but to my mind denying _one_ person the morning nap is better than denying _three_ people (her, you, the young sibling) sleep in the night.







:

What happens if she doesn't get the nap? Is it worse than the night stuff?

What about no morning nap, but crank up bed time at night a little earlier than it is now so she doesn't have to last as long with no sleep. Is she getting 12+ hours at night?

Hang in there, mama!

A.


----------



## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

I agree with the pp...if you drop the nap, hopefully you can get her down earlier. These tantrums might be due to being really tired. The result might be that she's still so tired in the morning from not getting to bed early enough that she needs to sleep.

I would try to power through that naptime...get out, do projects, anything to get through the time until bedtime and try to move the schedule to an earlier bedtime and no nap. Maybe the consolidated nighttime sleep will help.


----------



## eleanorm (Aug 2, 2005)

I second (3rd, 4th) the dropping the nap idea - especially if you feel that your DD's days are not always energetic enough to tire her out (I know how that is, being more than 38 weeks preg now). A few months ago we did this with our DS (then 28 months) as it was also taking between 1 and 2 hours to get him to sleep at night - with much frustration on my part, but thankfully no major trantrums from him. Now, it is a 10 min pleasure!

If you do this, be prepared for a couple of weeks of transition. Being so tired DS needed to get to bed earlier in the evening, but he initially didn't sleep any longer. This meant that he was also waking up earlier in the morning. But he figured this out quickly enough and has now 'added' his nap-time to the night. I also needed to make sure that he got enough to eat during the day. He was so wiped at dinner time (6 p.m.) that he couldn't eat as much as usual. He then would wake at 5.30 in the morning complaining of 'my tummy is rumble, rumble' and we (well, DP) would have to get up to feed him.


----------



## beccalou79 (Mar 16, 2007)

Okay, reading all your replies, I'm going to drop the nap and see what happens. She's normally asleep right now (I'm typing this at 11ish a.m.) and is acting very, very tired, so her behavior the rest of the day will surely be... interesting... but it can't be any worse than last night.

It's funny, because she used to fight her nap tooth and nail, to the point that I thought she had outgrown it-- but once I gave up making her lay down, she eventually started giving cues that she wanted it again. It's really hard for me to figure out what to do with all these mixed messages... it's like as soon as we settle into a new routine (no nap, earlier-in-the-day nap, etc.) she changes her tune and we're back to square one.

Since the advice here, though, is overwhelmingly in favor of nap-dropping, I'll give it another try. Swampangel, your comment that "These tantrums might be due to being really tired. The result might be that she's still so tired in the morning from not getting to bed early enough that she needs to sleep" helped me recognize that, yes, that's another part of the problem-- for example, she only got 10 hours of sleep last night, having spent the first two hours screaming bloody murder. I guess it's no wonder she's rubbing her eyes right now!

eleanorm, reading that your son "has now 'added' his nap-time to the night" gives me tremendous hope. Am I right in assuming he probably sleeps around 14 hours a night? That would work well for our family, if Maddie did something similar.

Anyway, thanks again to everyone for responding-- you've helped me feel more empowered about the situation, and I definitely needed that.


----------



## kaspar (Nov 9, 2005)

oh, i feel for you! if my lo still isn't asleep after 2 hours, i pass him off to my husband. i would lose my mind if i didn't have that option. the lo is only 8 months, so i obviously haven't experiencced your situation, but i do find he sleeps more easdily if i put him down eaelier. i start our dinner/bath/tummy-rub/song/nurse routine at 5:30 now.

i never napped when i was that age. and if i did nap for some reason - e.g., the 3 days i was in day-care, and it was a fight each timme - i wouldn't sleep until midnight.

how baby-safe is the room where you all sleep? would it be feasible to say "you can stay up if you wannt, as long as you play quietly in your bed" ?

my only other suggestion is that you eat a high-protein snack in the afternoon before trying to put either of them down... i find that if i have a handful of nuts, chunk of cheese, slice of summer sausage or even just a glass of milk, it makes a HUGE difference in how much of the lo's sleep-delaying shenanigans i can tolerate.


----------



## eleanorm (Aug 2, 2005)

14 hours - I wish. But I really can't remember the last time he slept that much in 24 hours. He has never been a big sleeper. He used to get about 9.5-10 at night and another 1.5-2 at naptime. Now he sleeps for about 11 hours per night. Good enough for me!


----------



## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

I think for us, one of the reasons we do not have bedtime battles, ever, is that sleep is something we get when we need it--like peeing or eating. We don't schedule meals or snacks, either. If the boys are hungry--they eat something. (We do "schedule" supper, I guess, but it's eaten when the house is hungry by majority, you know?) Sleep is what happens when we're tired. For my children, sometimes that happens when it's 7pm and sometimes when it's 11pm. If we have a busy day, like school or something, the house gets quiet (no computer or playing loudly) by about 7pm with kids drifting off by about 8:30pm or so. One of my boys is a night owl like me, so sometimes he follows me around for a bit before I bore him to sleep.









I completely, totally understand the need for alone time, and I am in no way willing to give that up. Ever. So, what I do is stay up later. If I'm more tired than my kids, I'll sleep when they do and not do any alone time, but generally, even if I am totally exhausted, I at least get a chance to listen to my sleeping house (husband included) before I fall off to sleep.

Bedtime stuff is so hard for some families, and I think you'll figure it out. You seem to have reached your melting point, though, and I agree that change is in order. Of course not CIO, but maybe something else.









I think dropping the nap is a terrific idea, even if it does mean that you end up with a completely grumpy toddler in the evening.


----------



## blsilva (Jul 31, 2006)

We also had to drop the nap with our toddler when our new babe came along. I fought it, because I _loved_ naptime- the only time I really got to myself. But it was so worth it not to have to fight for 2-4 hours to get him to bed at night.


----------



## pacificbliss (Jun 17, 2006)

Hugs.

We're struggling with sleep here too so I'm no help but I can send you hugs.


----------



## homebirthmom (Jun 28, 2006)

I know you've gotten lots of replies and good advise already, but I thought I'd throw in my bit of experience in case it can help out a little bit more.

The one thing that really helped with my son's sleep was night weening and no naps. If my son has a nap I generally make sure he sleeps for less than an hour, and even less if possible, like when we're on our way to the grocery store for instance. But, he will get tired anywhere between 8 and 10:30 and sometimes tells me he wants to go to bed (which seems like a miracle still when I think back to the days of waking every hour to nurse!) and I put him in his toddler bed (which is right next to my side of the bed) turn off the light and shut the door and he generally falls asleep.

Something that may help a bit would be putting her toddler bed next to you. My husband put our son's up on risers so it is flush with our bed. So, we're still co-sleeping, but he's getting a little feel for independent sleeping since he knows that's his bed. Even though, almost every night he ends up right next to me (but I'm enjoying it since I wont be able to cuddle with him in bed when the new baby takes that spot


----------



## coloradomama1 (Dec 31, 2006)

i'm not experienced with older or mutilple babes but i'd agree that you should drop the nap. one thing we're going through with our 13 month old right now is that sometimes at night me being there during the wind down process is MORE stimulating to her than not. and i swear, sometimes the energy comes off you that you want/need them to sleep so badly because you need a break and then those are the nights that they fight the hardest!

could you go nurse the 4 month old quietly in a rocker but stay in the same room while other dc gets out some of that energy alone on the bed? that way you're not right there getting madder and madder that she's not going to sleep which is so easy to do...plus you'd be nursing and releasing those much needed relaxation hormones that might make it easier to cope.

do everything you can to get that time alone at night to recharge your batteries, it is essential especially if you're on your own with 2 kids alot!


----------



## beccalou79 (Mar 16, 2007)

Well, I kept her up till 5:30 and then had to put her to bed-- she was about to fall apart from exhaustion. She fell asleep as soon as she finished her milk, woke up briefly about 30 minutes later, then was out like a light again once I soothed her. It felt awful not putting her down for a nap today, when she was rubbing her eyes so pathetically! But hopefully she'll get at least 12 hours tonight-- and just maybe, I'll have a good night, too.

Thanks again, everybody!


----------



## iluvkisa (Sep 13, 2007)

Oh my goodness beccalou79, today is my first time posting on this site, and I was going to ask the exact same thing you did! I could have written your post!! Except that my daughter is 18 months old right now. She is doing EXACTLY the same thing as you describe and it's been going on for about 5 months now. I to am at my wits end and have literally cried at times, and I've also yelled a couple of times and had to walk away. My husband and I have resorted to driving her around which works like a charm. BUT, I would really rather have her go to sleep in the house. I was considering starting a schedule with her tomorrow - which I'm kind of reluctant to do - but I feel like I have to do something because I'm 33 weeks pregnant and with her acting like this, it makes me afraid for when my new baby arrives. I don't think I can drop her daytime nap because that's the one thing she's consistent about. She always falls asleep at some point during the day, usually between 11:30 and 12:30, no matter what. She naps anywhere from 30 minutes to 2 hours. But the length doesn't really matter when it comes to her going to sleep at night. It's the same battle every night. I can tell she's sleepy, but it's just difficult for her to go down. Anyhoo, I wish you luck with your situation, I can truly relate because we're going through the same thing. Please, please, please let me know how things progress for you and if you find anything that works.


----------



## riversong (Aug 11, 2005)

Well, I'm going to weigh in with the opposite advice. I think 2 y.o. is too young to stop napping. If she really needs to sleep during the day, then I think you want to teach her to listen to her body and sleep when she's tired. I've also read and experienced that daytime naps actually make nighttime sleep go better. Of course, you don't want the nap to end too close to bedtime, but that doesn't sound like the case.

My dd went through the same thing beccalou79 and iluvkisa describe. I also got very angry and yelled at bedtime because I couldn't stand her behavior. My dh and I would take turns lying down with her at night. We would each stay in the room as long as we could stand it and then switch. I posted on here for advice and really the best advice was just for dh and me to relax. We were all three of us gearing up for a fight at nighttime. We decided to push bedtime a little later and just try and have fun with our bedtime routine. It really helped. We also made sure to get her plenty of exercise in the late afternoon/evening and to give her some more special one-on-one time with each of us. It also helped that dd eventually passed out of that stage. We've still had some rocky nights since then, but never as bad as it was when she was singing at the top of her lungs and kicking us when we were in bed with her.

Beccalou79- I imagine that it must be really hard to put your toddler and your infant to bed by yourself each night. I know I couldn't handle it alone.







Do you have a family member who can come over and help you at night? If not, do you have the money to hire a mother's helper who could come at bedtime? We coslept with both the baby and our older dd in the same bed for a while, but eventually it just wasn't working anymore. Now ds and I cosleep and dd cosleeps with her dad in another room. That's what worked best for us.


----------



## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

I wish I had a good solution but I don't. Have you read "The No-Cry Sleep Solution for Toddlers"? Perhaps you might find a good suggestion there.


----------



## beccalou79 (Mar 16, 2007)

Well, I'm not sure if I should classify last night a success or not... on one hand, Maddie didn't fight like a wild animal, and that's always a relief. On the other, though, she woke up every 20-30 minutes until I accidentally fell asleep beside her at 7:30. Then, when I got up at 8:30, she woke up within minutes of me leaving the bed. That's when I sort of threw my hands up in the air and decided to stay in bed myself-- I know I need the sleep, and she obviously needed me by her. We went downstairs to get her a bit of warm milk, and once back in bed, she fell asleep drinking it and didn't stir too much the rest of the night.

I don't know if her prior wakefulness is due to not having a nap in the day, or because she has a somewhat-stopped-up nose from a cold, or because she just needed some extra snuggles, but I really hope it doesn't happen again tonight... I've got my in-laws flying in tomorrow and I'm hoping to get the house all tidied up when the kids fall asleep this evening. But we'll see. Obviously her sleep needs are more important than a shiny kitchen sink, LOL!

riversong, I had to chuckle reading your post, especially the part about how "dh and I would take turns lying down with her at night. We would each stay in the room as long as we could stand it and then switch." My hubby and I have done that before, when he was home to help, and I know what a hair-pulling experience that is! I know your suggestion to get her more activity in the afternoon would help a LOT, but (there's always a 'but,' isn't there?) it's hard for me with the baby to run around outside too much, and more often than not, we don't have the truck to get out and about. I think that's one of our biggest obstacles, actually... like most toddlers, she's really active, and doesn't have many avenues to burn off all that energy. And to answer your question, no, I don't have any family nearby to help with bedtime-- we moved to another state a few months ago, and, while I've made some friends here, they all have their own kids to put to bed, LOL. I would be open to hiring a mother's helper (particularly during the day, to help wear Maddie out), but I would like to know them first as a person, and I haven't yet met anyone here ideal for that position.

iluvkisa, I feel your pain! We'll get through this somehow... now that my head isn't melting off of my body in a fit of anger, I know that CIO is not even close to the right solution for all this. But the whole situation's frustrating beyond words, isn't it? When I find what does work, I promise to let you know ASAP!!!


----------



## treqi (Dec 31, 2006)

If the nap dropping doesn't work changing a 4mos schedule is alot easier than a 2yos and I would suggest letting your dd fall asleep on her own be it 9pm or midnight and then change your 4mo sleep to fit dds (now I only have one so this makes sense in theroy I dunno about practise)


----------



## secondintheoven (May 21, 2007)




----------



## ctdoula (Dec 26, 2002)

HUGS!!!!

I've been there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It sucks. It does get better!!!!

My ds is a similar age and it would take hours to put him to sleep if he takes a nap. He no longer naps, and is sleeping in less than 10minutes, and is OUT COLD by 7pm every night (and doesn't wake until 7-8am).

My suggestions would be to eliminate her nap, and then aim for a very early bed time. There are nights when my ds is asleep at 6:30.

The waiting later doesn't help, just makes them crankier and harder to get to sleep. Also, for us, the 'going to bed at the same time' thing never worked. Too much stimulation for both my kids. My ds falls asleep nursing in our bed, my dd looks at books in her room (after we read to her), and then goes into our bed to fall asleep.

HUGS!


----------



## ctdoula (Dec 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riversong* 
Well, I'm going to weigh in with the opposite advice. I think 2 y.o. is too young to stop napping. If she really needs to sleep during the day, then I think you want to teach her to listen to her body and sleep when she's tired. I've also read and experienced that daytime naps actually make nighttime sleep go better. Of course, you don't want the nap to end too close to bedtime, but that doesn't sound like the case.

Every kid is so different! My dd stopped napping at 27mo old. I SWORE my ds would nap until he was 4...... he stopped at 26mo.







: Not that I don't try, but it's not worth it to me to fight with him for an hour to get him to nap, and then have him up until 10pm every night.


----------



## beccalou79 (Mar 16, 2007)

iluvkisa, there's hope!

It's about 10 p.m. here and I'm about to go to bed myself; tonight went much better than last night. Maddie got no nap today, fell asleep around 6 p.m. and has woken up twice, briefly, since then-- but she dropped off again as soon as I walked in the room and laid down next to her. She was also in a really good mood for most of the day-- I got lots of hugs and kisses!-- so that translated into a good mood for me, too. All in all, it was a success; and if things keep going this way, I will happily say goodbye to her nap forever.

Now let's just hope she feels the same way!


----------



## rikiamber (Feb 4, 2006)

you gotta have a schedual...even if your a sahm. Wake up and start the day at the same time, go to bed at the same time, naps at the same time, it will all fall into place if you stick to it. I am having trouble getting my ds to go to sleep and stay asleep. If we stick to our routine its a more restful night than if we deviate.


----------



## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

I"m having problems with my 2 yr old too.

I have a twin bed for her, and that has been much better. Once in aa while she falls asleep in it. Usually she sleeps in my bed or falls asleep on the couch. Then I move her to her bed, unless I am ready to go to bed too. Then I usualyl jsut leave her on my bed if that's where she fell asleep. She alsmot always end up coming in during the night anyway.

I don't fight her if she wants to stay awake, unkless I am dead tired ro ahve abad headache or something, and I really need to sleep. I figure lettign her play in the living room til she falss asleep i mroe restful than her screaming and fighting me.

I have been there, as far as the yelling be quiet when I am very tired. Not often, but yeah, it's happened.


----------



## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ctdoula* 
Every kid is so different! My dd stopped napping at 27mo old. I SWORE my ds would nap until he was 4...... he stopped at 26mo.







: Not that I don't try, but it's not worth it to me to fight with him for an hour to get him to nap, and then have him up until 10pm every night.

So true! I don't think there's a hard and fast rule about when is too soon for a child to drop a nap. I have two friends whose children just didn't seem to need the sleep during the day. Mine napped until he was 4. You just never know. I think when the nighttime becomes that big of a struggle,chances are they just aren't tired enough because of the sleep during the day.

Also, I think that 2yo is a time of major intense separation stuff. They have so much freedom in so many ways and the power to do things on their own. I think that intensifies their need to connect with us more and often that comes when they are vulnerable (i.e., sleepy) so nighttime becomes a time to connect. My ds was the same way...needing that reassurance if he woke up. If all it takes is to lie down with her to settle her back to sleep, I think you're in great shape!


----------



## my kidlets and me (Dec 6, 2006)

I've read the books that say kids should be napping until they're 4 or so, too. But my dd gave up her nap by 2.5, and still sleeps 12 hours at night (she's a really good sleeper at night now), so I think she's following her rhythm. She gets 45mins of "quiet time" while her little brother naps in the afternoon - occasionally, on the day she doesn't get this time, she does have a hard time coping, so I think a wind down period is necessary.

Hugs, mama - I hope things get better for you soon.


----------



## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

I'm glad to hear you had a better night. Since my other posts were removed I just wanted to make sure you did see what I suggested about giving your toddler a power nap. (I assume my posts were removed since I was addressing the poster who brought up a topic which isn't supposed to be recommended here.)

Sometimes, if the 2 yr old really seems like she's not going to make it until bedtime, I give her a power nap in the car. We go for a quick errand, and she catches 10 mins of sleep. That's all she needs to keep going until 8pm, but still she's tired enough that she doesn't put up a huge fight at bedtime.

It's hot right now, but when it's cooler I also put her in the baby jogger and go for a walk so she can have a short nap. Once she's been asleep 10-15 mins I'll wake her up by getting her out of the stroller and letting her walk part of the way back home. You could sling your infant and push the toddler in the stroller if that's an option for you.


----------



## kaspar (Nov 9, 2005)

the books are hilarious, more than annything, i find... i keep telling lo "according to the book, you are supposed to nap after being awake for 2 hours!!" he has a good laugh at that









Quote:


Originally Posted by *beccalou79* 
I know your suggestion to get her more activity in the afternoon would help a LOT, but (there's always a 'but,' isn't there?) it's hard for me with the baby to run around outside too much, and more often than not, we don't have the truck to get out and about. I think that's one of our biggest obstacles, actually... like most toddlers, she's really active, and doesn't have many avenues to burn off all that energy.

well... when i was preg and couldn't WALK let alone run, i'd keep the dog happy by sitting on the front porch with a pile of sticks... i'd throw them, he'd fetch them, and if one got lost i had more handy!! i'd yell "go go go!" and he'd run like crazy. don't know if that would work for a human though!!


----------



## beccalou79 (Mar 16, 2007)

Just wanted to post an update for iluvkisa's sake (and anyone else in the same boat I was in). We gave the no-nap thing a good try, but it ultimately failed; she would pass out between 5:30-6 p.m. every night, but wake up repeatedly and toss and turn till morning. It was just as bad as my original dilemma, only in a different form.

It's become clear to me that she's just not ready to give up her nap. It also became clear (thanks to someone's suggestion on this thread) that she was not getting enough afternoon activity to wear her out by bedtime; it's been hard to juggle the needs of my baby and toddler these last few months, and I usually don't have the energy to actively play as much as I used to. But I've been trying to overcome that, taking her out as much as I can the last several days (yesterday, for example, we went to the zoo), and it helps a LOT. Don't get me wrong; she still takes a while to go to bed. But rather than two hours, it's more like 30-45 minutes. And then she sleeps about 11 hours straight, with little to no waking or moving around the bed.

Anyway, hope this helps anyone else out there still struggling with a similar issue. I have faith that this, too, shall pass...


----------



## inblissak (May 28, 2006)

Thank you everyone for responding with all your collective experiences! I only have one 2yo and can not handle nights. I couldn't imagine having a little one too. It has been 2 years without a decent night's sleep. I could have written the first post. Glad to know I'm not alone and I'll try some of these ideas.


----------



## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Man, I've tried everything and, I hate to tell you but, it MAY NOT get better. Dd is almost 6 and we still have 2 hours of going-to-bed issues. She was a poor sleeper from the beginning and she is now. She stopped napping completely soon after her 2nd birthday. She was taking only one nap from just a few months old. The only way she'd sleep is if she were in my arms.

We still co-sleep. She still won't even try her own bed. She (thankfully) has never had a tantrum, but she fidgets for a good hour or two before going to sleep. Every.single.night. She won't sleep if we're not there. She'll be 6 in Feb. I haven't slept more than 2 hours in a row for all those years. Sometimes it doesn't get better.

I hope for you it does.


----------



## wallacesmum (Jun 2, 2006)

Giving parenting advice is difficult, because I really only have my own child to reference and kids are different. That's why I agree that parenting books are mostly crap. What I have found most helpful, but requiring constant practice and effort on my part, was to really learn to listen to my child. I go into each sleep interaction with no agenda. Then he can't vibe off me "I am trying to get you to pass out so I can leave and have a glass of wine with your daddy." I turn the clock around, drop into the moment, and just stay there. I ask him if he wants bed when he is tired, and he usually will say "bed." We all go, if need be. Sometimes we are there for an hour, sometimes not. A rigid schedule would be a disaster for our ds, because he is so strong-willed and needs control.

I am trying really hard to get down on his level and really invest in very engaged, active play, before I need some "me" time. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but it helps me be in that moment.


----------



## SquibsNCrackers (Oct 21, 2005)

Regarding kicking (jostling, crawling, rolling, etc.) and kids not sleeping in their own little beds even if they are in the same room as the parents' bed ...

obviously this is not a possibility for everyone, but we solved many of our co-sleeping/bedtime routine issues by buying a queen size bed and placing it right next to our king size bed. The bedroom was pretty much all bed.

With an infant and a 2yo (and a 7yo who still came in and out with illness, bad dreams or just because), the giant bed solution allowed us room for everyone. Once the kids fell asleep, we could roll (not carry!) them both/all to the king and stay in the queen ourselves or put the babies in the king with me and the big one in the queen with dh, or whatever worked for any given night. Or we could just leave everyone where they crashed.

My children (who were never "good" napppers or sleepers) seemed to wake less often. They could just roll around and cuddle up to the closest warm body and fall back to sleep without fully waking themselves or the cuddle-ee.

The giant bed was also a fun place to play and get energy out before sleep. When they were bigger, we could read to both/all of them at once. Our bedtime routine wasn't running back and forth from one to the other, or taking turns with parents like it was when we had two.

I still didn't sleep much, as I'm just not a "good" sleeper either. Even now, when we usually have only the 5yo in our bed, I still wake and listen for the others, have trouble falling back to sleep if he gets up to use the bathroom, wants water, etc. etc. etc. Guess I'd benefit from some sleep training!

Not a cure-all by any means, but it helped ... FWIW


----------



## newbymom05 (Aug 13, 2005)

Coming to this thread late, but curious about the no-nappers with an early bedtime. Where does Daddy play into this? I don't think ds is ready to give up naps, but even if he was, I know he wouldn't give up his daddy time which doesn't happen until at least 6. How do you all manage that?


----------



## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

First of all, relatively speaking, the transition to no nap + early bedtime is short. Eventually they start being able to stay up later and later as they adjust.

I gave my DD a power nap in the afternoon. Sometimes she still needs this power nap. We would run an errand or go out in the stroller in the afternoon. I'd only let her sleep 10 minutes. It took the edge off, and she was able to make it until bedtime w/o melting down. It took trial and error to find out how much sleep was too much, though. Sometimes I'd let her sleep longer and she'd be up late or resist bedtime again. We just had to figure it out. But even with all the trial and error it was better than struggling at bedtime every night.


----------



## iluvkisa (Sep 13, 2007)

Hi Beccalou79 and everyone else,

I've been off for about a week because I didn't want to say anything until I felt like things were working. I ended up doing a few things and I'm not sure which one is the 'magic' answer, but I'll tell you all of them.

First of all I decided to go on and try doing a schedule with her. I looked at it as giving her assistance with sleep since I could clearly tell she was tired, but just not settling down. It only took 2 days for her to follow it. Day 1, although I didn't want to do it, I woke her up at 7:30 a.m. - about 30 minutes earlier than normal. I engaged her until 12:30 p.m., then we relaxed for an afternoon nap. The first day it was only 45 minutes. At 6:30 p.m. we started our night time routine of bath, books, snack, then laying down. It took about an hour or so to fall asleep, but she did go to sleep better. On the second day I did the same thing, but the afternoon nap was 2 hours. On the third day, I decided to see what she would do on her own. From day 3 on she has gone to sleep between 8 and 8:30, and wakes between 8 and 8:30. She goes down for a nap for 2 to 2 1/2 hours starting at 12:30 with absolutely no struggle at all. At night it still takes about an hour to go to sleep, but this is with minimal tossing and turning, or kicking . It's nothing like before, she is generally calm and quiet, she usually looks at the ceiling and just relaxes until she falls out.

The other thing I did was change her diet. I completely cut out all white products and snack items that could potentially change into sugar. I also cut out bread completely, cheerios, crackers, juice, absolutely no sugar at all. I increased her water intake and make sure she has plenty of veggies. I'll add the bread back in, making sure it's whole grain bread, but snacks are now freeze dried peas or green beans - which she loves - or raisins or fruit.

I also added more activity. We have been attending the children's museum, the park and taking walks. Although I must admit I did miss a few days due to me being so big I don't have the energy. But she still stayed on the schedule.

So far it's worked for almost 2 weeks. I'm hoping it continues and stays this way as the new baby arrives. Oh and let me also mention that I stopped focusing on the fact that she wasn't sleeping and started focusing on what I did want to happen which is more sleep. Trying to use the power of positive thinking.







I also keep saying to myself - before I know it she'll be grown, living her own life and sleeping with someone else!
















I hope something in here can assist you with what you're currently doing. Seems like we have both made some progress.









Wishing you well!


----------



## avedagrrl (Sep 17, 2007)

One thing no one else seems to have touched on... your 2yo is suddenly not an only child anymore. I know my DS really had some big sleep issues when DD was born because he needed more one on one attention from me. Sounds like you have a good thing going, so keep it up!


----------



## melibee (Aug 20, 2007)




----------



## bwylde (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
Man, I've tried everything and, I hate to tell you but, it MAY NOT get better. Dd is almost 6 and we still have 2 hours of going-to-bed issues. She was a poor sleeper from the beginning and she is now. She stopped napping completely soon after her 2nd birthday. She was taking only one nap from just a few months old. The only way she'd sleep is if she were in my arms.

We still co-sleep. She still won't even try her own bed. She (thankfully) has never had a tantrum, but she fidgets for a good hour or two before going to sleep. Every.single.night. She won't sleep if we're not there. She'll be 6 in Feb. I haven't slept more than 2 hours in a row for all those years. Sometimes it doesn't get better.

I hope for you it does.

Whew, I'm not the only one. We've tried everything with our two but DS is the worst of the two. He will literally jump on the bed for hours if we let him. He rarely goes to sleep before midnight; recently I let him stay up as long as he wanted just to see when he would go to bed on his own and it was 2 am. I am so sleep deprived I can hardly function. I'm starting to let DH do more of the nighttime, getting the kids ready for bed as I need to get up super early now so I've been taking melatonin and going to bed around 10pm then the kids will just cuddle with me to go to sleep when they're ready. If I still can't sleep when they're in bed, I'll go sleep somewhere else alone after they're asleep (even though I rarely wake alone!).

I also agree it's hard when kids go from being an only to having a sibling. DS was bad before DD came, but it got worse after her arrival.


----------

