# Oh. My. Good. G--d.



## mumto1 (Feb 17, 2016)

My son was going to a "consent" presentation at his high school. He does not (evidently) understand the mechanics of rape (etc) as he believes/ed that rape/sexual abuse of men by women was nearly on par (or at least in significant numbers) with each other just underreported and undersupported by law. He totally wasn't getting the fact that the rapes of men would be almost all by other men. My kid who lives in a bubble. Have you had conversations about this stuff with your kids? It's scary but maybe not surprising he did not want to confront the bare facts and I can only hope this will not be a persisting attitude into adulthood.


----------



## zebra15 (Oct 2, 2009)

YES I've had numerous conversations with my kid (16) starting from very very early- think toddler years (keep yer hands to yer self). I've mentioned before my kid has been enrolled in college since age 13, starting very slow with once class and working up to full time with scholarships this year. He NEEDS to understand behaviors have consequences and how to act with older students and his behavior would make him a victim in our state- even if the female was unaware of his age despite academic abilities.
There is a wonderful YouTube video about this topic that covers it based on the idea of 'tea'.




What it comes down to is ANYONE can be a victim at anytime and anyone can be the perp at anytime. Age is a huge factor, consent is a HUGE factor, communication is HUGE.

As someone who has experienced DV, assault and a myriad of other things I encourage you to get your son into counseling ASAP (i know you are working on this). The victim never ever truly recovers and that persons life will never be the same.

All that being said- I am very glad your kiddo went to the presentation and I'm glad you are having a conversation- however shocking it was.


----------



## mumto1 (Feb 17, 2016)

*that's a good video*

I like the "unconscious people don't want a cup of tea" line. It makes it clear without being emotional, complicated etc.


----------



## hillymum (May 15, 2003)

mumto1 said:


> My son was going to a "consent" presentation at his high school. He does not (evidently) understand the mechanics of rape (etc) as he believes/ed that rape/sexual abuse of men by women was nearly on par (or at least in significant numbers) with each other just underreported and undersupported by law. He totally wasn't getting the fact that the rapes of men would be almost all by other men. My kid who lives in a bubble. Have you had conversations about this stuff with your kids? It's scary but maybe not surprising he did not want to confront the bare facts and I can only hope this will not be a persisting attitude into adulthood.


Ummmm, your son would be correct on thinking men are raped by women in a proportionate number as women are raped by men. My partner was raped by his then girlfriend who was older than him. It's affected every aspect of his life since then. It is under reported. By downplaying it like you did, you may have put your son into a position where if it happens to him, he will not tell anyone. I understand the indignation you appear to have felt, but rape of men/boys is not recognised anywhere near enough!

I'm impressed your son was willing to discuss this with you. Such a shame you seem to have shut him down.


----------



## mumto1 (Feb 17, 2016)

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/11/the-understudied-female-sexual-predator/503492/

In this article, they say that most abuse by women of men (or other women) occurs in institutions or when the men are fairly young like your partner. But they do say some men were coerced by "nagging or begging"? So I guess they felt it was against their will.

I have no personal experience of this while I do have personal experience, multiple, (friends etc.) going the other way. I guess this is a difficult enough topic for women among women but for men...

The plain fact remains though that we aren't trying to vilify a whole gender men are more equipped for violent acts of sexual aggression by their anatomy and by social constructs (which does help to skew our perceptions I agree).

I was just blindsided by this conversation at 8am, so it will probably have to be revisited.

Here's another article:
http://time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers/


----------



## moominmamma (Jul 5, 2003)

Yes, the definitions of sexual assault, coercion and consent, are definitely variable. You get very different results on surveys depending on which definitions you apply. If you include being drunk or high as a categorical antirequisite for consent, anyone who admits to having fooled around after partying, ever, could fall into the sexual assault category. It's these surveys, with the broadest of definitions, where the rates of males as victims of sexual assault begin to climb. 

I dunno what the answer is. There's no doubt that some people end up quite traumatized by sexual incidents that happen to them, but I think that when definitions get broad enough to include every last one of those incidents, they end up including a lot of other 'background noise' occurrences that were entirely trivial. I would be considered a victim of sexual assault, because at age 14 I was groped for a split second by a guy on a footbridge; I yelled, kicked and ran off and it was over almost before the adrenalin kicked in, and found it less traumatizing than, say, having a motorist yell at me because my bike-riding inconvenienced him in traffic.

The ultimate solution is I suppose to root the upbringing of our young people in empathy, so that they are able to think the consequences of their actions through from a variety of perspectives, and can also accept that the internal experiences of others are valid for them regardless of whether the external circumstances fit into a specific category. And of course that goes as much for men as well as for women. Generalizations are helpful to a point, but they have their limitations.

Miranda


----------



## mumto1 (Feb 17, 2016)

*I agree*

It gets confusing when you bring up relational abuse etc. Because then of course I would say it's pretty much equal opportunity for anyone. I can say as a female person I've had to deal with harassment and sexism (based on my gender) to a very large degree, it has had a huge impact on life, guys similarly have to deal with preconceptions and bullying by other guys. I'm not sure if it is equal, it must depend on circumstances. I've been turned away from employment, offered less pay, been harrassed almost daily when in my 20's just trying to go through my everyday routine walking down the street, chased down by cars driven by men more than once (and once pinned to a wall by a car full of men where I had to try to smash in their headlights so they would back off), had to have a store owner become aggressive with a guy who was following me down the street so that he would leave me alone, had to lead a man away from home who was following me so he wouldn't know where I live, had to have a bus driver stop a bus to kick someone off who was verbally attacking me, had someone punch me in the subway because I didn't move out of the way (I was pregnant having a miscarriage) and when I was a kid I had a man try to pick me up on halloween because I guess my costume was inappropriate (I was 10 or 11). These are just a few instances in my life, just a few examples. I know guys get harassed too.


----------



## hillymum (May 15, 2003)

"In this article, they say that most abuse by women of men (or other women) occurs in institutions or when the men are fairly young like your partner. But they do say some men were coerced by "nagging or begging"? So I guess they felt it was against their will. "

My boyfriend was in his late 20's at the time, and he was most definitely coerced. Would you downplay the same occurrence if it happened to a woman? That you "guess it was against their will"? I actually find that attitude pretty horrendous! 

Women have been fighting for decades for sexual abuse to be recognised, I understand the struggle that goes on still, but I do not, in any way, feel it appropriate to view sexual assault against men by women to be overstated or exaggerated like you appear to be doing. 

Moominmamma, I agree, change will come forth if we educate our children and raise them to be compassionate individuals. Both boys and girls need to learn that no means no, and that when it comes to sexual contact (and physical contact, even nonsexual) a confirmative consent should be given before anything happens.


----------



## mumto1 (Feb 17, 2016)

No offence meant but as moominmama pointed out it gets confusing when you have an abusive relationship vs violent assault. Are they both bad? Of course they are. So when someone says "rape" my mind leaps to the violent attack but of course that's not the whole story, so I was not trying to cast aspersions on your partners experience.


----------



## kathymuggle (Jul 25, 2012)

mumto1 said:


> My son was going to a "consent" presentation at his high school. He does not (evidently) understand the mechanics of rape (etc) as he believes/ed that *rape/sexual abuse* of men by women was nearly on par (or at least in significant numbers) with each other just underreported and undersupported by law. He totally wasn't getting the fact that the rapes of men would be almost all by other men. My kid who lives in a bubble. Have you had conversations about this stuff with your kids? It's scary but maybe not surprising he did not want to confront the bare facts and I can only hope this will not be a persisting attitude into adulthood.


I believe rape is unwanted penetration, while sexual is unwanted sexual assault - which could include rape, but could also include such things as groping.

I suspect more women are raped than men are raped. I have no stats or thoughts on which sex is the victim more with regard to sexual assault.

I think there is a (largely feminist - and I am a feminist) culture out there that says men are evil and typically the perpetrators of rape, sexual assault and straight up domestic assault. I think this can be incredibly hard to hear as a young male - being told you are awful, and belong to an awful group of people. When you add in the fact that assaults on men _are_ underreported and they have less community resources to help deal with assault...well it is just a mess.

http://www.torontosun.com/2016/06/23/men-also-suffer-from-domestic-abuse

I think you would be better to say non-consensual sex with any person of any sex is wrong - and leave out the "women are always the victims, men are always the perps" line of discussion. If you want to talk about the idea that women are hurt more than men, then you need to make sure you have your facts straight, acknowledge men can be hurt too, and be sure not to come across as man bashing. it is a complicated discussion.

I largely agree with hillymum's first post.


----------



## kathymuggle (Jul 25, 2012)

https://aasas.ca/support-and-information/men-and-sexual-assault/

Eye opening stats.

It does say that most male victims of sexual assault are victimized by other males, but that females can be the perps.


----------



## moominmamma (Jul 5, 2003)

kathymuggle said:


> unwanted sexual assault - which could include rape, but could also include such things as groping.


Just to illustrate how the definitions are blurred by different studies, the widely quoted ongoing CDC study on sexual violence includes the following:

Completed or attempted forced penetration of a victim
Completed or attempted alcohol/drug-facilitated penetration of a victim
Completed or attempted forced acts in which a victim is made to penetrate a perpetrator or someone else
Completed or attempted alcohol/drug-facilitated acts in which a victim is made to penetrate a perpetrator or someone else
Non-physically forced penetration which occurs after a person is pressured verbally or through intimidation or misuse of authority to consent or acquiesce
Unwanted sexual contact
Non-contact unwanted sexual experiences

That last one, "non-contact unwanted sexual experiences" includes things like witnessing a flashing, experiencing sexual comments, or being made to watch pornography. When that stuff gets lumped in and presented as part of the picture of "rape and other forms of sexual assault" I think that's when we start to get a muddied picture of prevalence.

Miranda


----------



## hillymum (May 15, 2003)

One of the discussions I have had with my boys over time, has included subjects such as peer pressure into sexual acts, being emotionally mature enough for having a sexual relationship, and the need for confirmative consent rather than the withdrawal of consent ( hearing the words "I want this" rather than hearing "Stop, I don't want this".. I know I was pressured into losing my virginity, and many people I have talked with felt they were not ready to have sex when they did. Though I would not under any circumstances say I was assaulted, I was not ready and wish I had felt more able to say no. I wish I had been able to say lets explore each other without penetration, and then both he and I might have learnt the things I have only learnt in the last 5 years about my body. That might be a discussion you for you and your son mumto1.


----------



## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

I feel that the first conversation we had about this issue was the one when my son was around 6 and asked why there's a tradition that boys must never hit girls, no matter what. I explained that it's a way of learning restraint because men (on the average) are bigger and stronger than women, so it's important that men *in particular* get into the habit of being very careful not to hurt women *in particular*. Of course, I also reinforced that nobody should hit anybody and reminded him that Jesus taught that you should not hit even a person who hit you first.


A couple of years later, my mom was interviewed about her role in starting the local battered women's shelter when I was a child, so the topic came up again: "Why isn't it a battered people's shelter?" Because some men bully and hurt the women they live with, and because the men are bigger and stronger, the women get very afraid and need a shelter where the men can't come in. Yes, sometimes women abuse men, but it's less common and tends to be easier for men to get away.


Thus, by the time discussions of sexual consent came up, he was aware of the idea that (in general) women are more easily victimized by men than any other combination of sexes. But we have talked about how nobody has the right to force or coerce anybody, how a physically weaker person may be able to talk you into things without physically forcing you, how he as a boy could be overpowered by an older boy or man, and how "your body can betray you" by giving you an erection or a lubricated vagina in response to physical stimulation even when you very much don't want to have sex with that person.


So I think it's a lot more complicated than, "OMG, men are rapists," and I don't think your son is in so much of a bubble--it sounds like he got a very balanced, "anyone could be a victim or an exploiter" educational program.


----------

