# My 5 y/o old touched his cousin's privates



## zen-ozz (Jan 8, 2004)

About a week ago, I got out of the shower and walked into the living room and found my oldest DS laying unclothed on the couch and my unclothed 4 y/o DD giving him a doctor's "exam." I asked them to get dressed and talked to them about privacy and not touching each other's genitals, keeping private parts private. They seemed to get it.

Today, we had Easter at my in-laws. My husband is working. My brother-in-law and his wife and children were there. They have a 4 y/o boy and a 3y/o girl. They kids were in the bedroom playing (this is where their toys are kept) and the door was closed to keep out my 1 y/o. Their 3y/o daughter does not like my youngest DS to be near her. He had pulled her hair earlier so she was extra sensitive and was screaming and crying any time DS went near her, so having the door to the bedroom seemed like a reasonable solution. My sister-in-law went to check on them and they were all naked. This is not unusual, as they like to strip down and run naked around the house. I told them that if they want to be naked they have to have the door open. So they all got dressed.

Well, when I got home B-I-L called and said his DD was in the bathroom screaming because my DS had hurt her vagina. He told me this and hung up the phone. I talked to DS. He admitted that he had done this. He told me that he touched her and her brother. I got a bit angry with him because we had just had this talk and he didn't listen to me. We have been having such problems with his listening and I am getting so frustrated. But I generally kept my cool and told him again that it is not okay to touch other people's private parts. I called B-I-L to tell him that yes, indeed, this had happened, and that I was sorry and of course my DS would be watched closely in the future when with other children. B-I-L siad he was having a really hard time with it and couldn't talke and hung up.

Then a few hours later my M-I-L called and asked my if I know what had happened. I said that sexual exploration was normal at his developmental phase and I was sorry that I wasn't watching the kids closer. She then told me that B-I-L's DD was bleeding and having trouble urinating.

Now I don't know what to think. I can't imagine that my DS could have hurt her like that with us only a few feet away in the other room. And the way she was reacting when my youngest DS went near her, I can't imagine that she would let DS hurt her and not throw a complete fit!

What should I do? Should I be worried about my DS How should I handle this? My DS wants to apologize, but I don't know if they even want him near her. Any thoughts?


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## eirual (Mar 21, 2006)

Up until i read that someone got hurt I was about to reply that this was totally normal. I remember getting caught playing doctor as a child and it was a shocker to my mom/gma. Honestly that's the only part of it i remember- getting caught, i have no recollection of anything else that actually happened while playing.

That's a tough one! I'd try to get BIL's DD to say what happened, or ask your son to make sure that it wasn't anything that could have been harmful (like trying to put a foreign object up there or something like that). I'd talk with your son about not doing that to ppl again- making sure that he knows it can make people sad, and get your BIL to talk to his DD to make sure that she knows that she needs to say no and stop things that hurt her, especially in that area.

I hope this is just a childhood mishap and nothing too traumatic for anyone, good luck mama!


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## Bartock (Feb 2, 2006)

At this age I think is is normal to play doctor, I remember doing it. Please don't be worried about him, he's not being weird, he's just exploring. Just sit him down and explain to him why he should not be doing this. As for the girl, ya I think if your DS had really hurt her at that moment someone should have heard something and she prob would have told someone about it at the moment, I just don't know what to say on that part. I don't really have any experience on the playing doc with my 5yo DS yet, but he has been playing with himself once and awhile, I just tell him if he wants to do that to please go in his room and close the door, that is a private thing and no one should be seeing him do that. Im not going to tell him it is bad, dirty, and never do it again, masterbation is natural. Good luck with everything, try not to feel so bad((Huggs))


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## zen-ozz (Jan 8, 2004)

Thanks for your responses. I asked him if he touched her with anything and he said he didn't. I really pushed the issue, and he continued to deny. His explanation has remained pretty constant. I will talk to him about it again tomorrow.

I did talk very clearly with him about not touching others and tried to help him understand that this made her sad. He said he didn't want to hurt her, he just wanted to see.

I really hope she is okay. I hope my DS is okay too. I hope he didn't hurt her. I am feeling horrible.


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

this must be horrible to think but do you think that perhaps he has been in any sort of situation with others that makes him want to act it out to normalise it? do you anything could have happened to him at all?

i really hope that is nto the case but maybe you need to rule it out


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I want to say your ds's actions are more on the normal side. I would ask him if he try to insert anything into her vagina. It might have been curiosity especially if he knows a baby is suppose to come out of it.

I would also question why your brother and sil didn't take their dd to the doctor if she was bleeding and unable to urinate.

There is the possibility after their game of doctor she got curious and try to insert something in her vagina but she associated the problem to your son. When we were in day care I know a little boy that wasn't like always got blamed if something went wrong even if he wasn't there by a little girl. She could have injured herself in a fall. If it had happen earlier in the day you would most likely see dry blood not fresh bleeding.

I don't think it would hurt if you talk to a counselor to make sure nothing else is going on with your son than normal developmental curiosity. Maybe they can guide you on handling this.


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## kibba (Oct 11, 2005)

What about helping ds write a letter or draw a picture that says Im sorry? (Just make sure he understands not to draw what happend.)

I usualy dont believe in forcing a "sorry" but I'm sure this would help things with your brother and his daughter?

I also agree that it's totaly normaly, but the hurting when she pees thing and the bleeding is pretty odd. Did they see the blood I wonder or did she tell them there was blood? Just something to wonder--...


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

My ds has been very curious about how babies are born. He couldn't fathom how the baby could come out of such a small place. I told him it stretched and finally showed him a birth video, which I think helped satisfy his curiosity. So I could see him getting involved in similar explorations if he could find a willing partner.


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## zen-ozz (Jan 8, 2004)

Thanks to everyone again for all your responses. I think we are all on the same wavelength, and it is a relief to hear that my thinking is inline with other mamas.

oliversmum ~ Beleive me, this thought crossed my mind about 5000 times. I have had the touching talk with DS and DD numerous times and talked about mommy or daddy touching when cleaning or checking if they don't feel right and the doctor touching, but not letting other grown-ups or children touch. I asked him pointblank last night if anyone had ever touched him and he said no. He really hasn't been in too many situations where he has been alone with an adult.

Marsupialmom ~ As soon as I found out that there was blood, I asked him if he put anything inside her vagina or used any of the toys in the room and he said no. I also asked my DD, who was in the room when it happened and she said no. DS said he just wanted to see and he "spread her vagina apart." It is possible that his fingernail scratched her, or that she scratched herself.

I did call sil this morning to see how the child is. They are feeling very concerned about the whole thing. I suggested she take the child to the doctor, but I don't know what they will do.

I made an appointment with a therapist that my DH and I have seen when we have had struggles in the past. I really trust her and feel like she will be a good guide through this.

kibba ~ DS expressed extreme sadness and sorrow. He would probably get alot out of writing a note of apology. I will do it with him, but I doubt that I will send it off. I don't think bil and sil will be at all open to it. They really seem to be demonizing DS. Thanks for the idea. I think it is a great one.

4evermom ~ it is interesting that you say that, because I am nine weeks pregnant with my 4th. We have been talking about the baby alot, and he has been asking questions about how the baby gets out of my belly. I told him, of course, that the baby comes through my vagina. A birth video would probably ease a lot of his curiousity. I will try to get my hands on one.

So I really think this was normal, developmental exploration. I think that if he did hurt her it was completely unintentional, and he seems to feel genuine remorse. Unfortunately, bil and sil are taking the whole thing very hard and I am concerned how their reaction is affecting their DD. DH's family has very little ability to deal with any type of difficulty and I suspect that we will not see them for a very long time. It is truly a shame. Ultimately I know that my son's intention was never to hurt her, but to quell his normal and appropriate curiousity. He feel's sorry and would love to tell her so.

I feel angry at myself for not trusting my own instincts. When their dd was screaming and yelling about my youngest DS coming near her, I really wanted to leave. It was making the visit very difficult for everyone. Instead, I closed the door to the playroom and let the kids in there by themselves, which is of course when the whole thing happened. I had just been saying that in the last few weeks he had really turned into a five year old, and I know that sexual curiousity is a part of that. I just wasn't catching up to this developmental phase fast enough. I feel like this was not my finest parenting moment.

Thanks again to everyone for your replies. It was really helpful to see that I have been right on target in how I am dealing with this.


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## Starr (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zen-ozz*
and he "spread her vagina apart."

Think of if the tables were turned and something like this happened to your DD. I think your BIL and SIL have a valid right to be concerned, I do hope for her sake they take her to a Dr. But to me this is a step above playing Dr. and I'll show you mine if ou show me yours. I would reiterate to your son that while its normal to be curious he needs to respect boundaries and other peoples bodies. This was going to far. I'm glad your taking him to be seen.


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## OakBerry (May 24, 2005)

What a tough situation!
I do think that your son isn't abnormal for exploring, and I think you are handling things just as I would. Talking to him, and keeping a close watch from now on.
I do also see how the girl's parents would upset, if another child supposedly made my dd's vagina bleed I'd be very upset and even a bit angry. They need to take her to the doctor for a thorough exam. Also, like another poster mentioned, the girl may have done some of the damage to herself, and just attributed it to your ds. This is a real possibility. I remember a case many years ago where a little girl had vaginal injuries and blamed them on a male relative (possibly her father?, if memory serves). There was a huge uproar until it finally came out that the little girl had inserted a pencil into her own vagina. The male relative was cleared.
It's difficult because you want to take their word for it, but sometimes they simply make stuff up..
I hope you and your il's can get this sorted out without any bad blood between you.


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## Oh the Irony (Dec 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom*

There is the possibility after their game of doctor she got curious and try to insert something in her vagina but she associated the problem to your son. When we were in day care I know a little boy that wasn't like always got blamed if something went wrong even if he wasn't there by a little girl. She could have injured herself in a fall. If it had happen earlier in the day you would most likely see dry blood not fresh bleeding.

i'm sorry--this line of thinking is a bit much like blaming the victim for my taste.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wolfmama*
i'm sorry--this line of thinking is a bit much like blaming the victim for my taste.

We are dealing with a 3 and 5 year years. I have seen/known of girls to hump theirselves raw, give themselves bladder infections because of exubrant masterbation. Stick cheerios or legos in their vagina. Kids this age have normal developmental issues with time and imaginations (persception) that do need to be taken in concideration.

My 5 year old was jumping on the bed fell and hit vulva. She couldn't pee. My dh saw the accident and what came out of my dd's mouth wasn't the same. She blamed her brother and sister for her fall because they were jumping on the bed.

I can remember other incidents when my then 3 year old didn't have the story strieght with the things that I saw.

Now if the other child was older or if it was an adult I would feel completely different. I would also question even more why the child wasn't examined by a doctor. I think there is a potential to make this little girl more of a victim instead of something that needs to be "moved" on after some inspection to make sure it was just age approaprate undesirable behavior. There is a difference between a victim of sexual molestation and a victim of childish foolishness.


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## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ilovemy2ds*
As for the girl, ya I think if your DS had really hurt her at that moment someone should have heard something and she prob would have told someone about it at the moment, I just don't know what to say on that part.

This kind of stood out to me. Why would you think that? This is a little girl-one who most likely was taught that her privates were private. A little girl who may have even been told by the OP's ds that this game was a forbidden one. MOST victims of sexual violence (which is how this child interpreted it, whether or not that was the OP's DS's intention) do not report that violence to anyone *ever*. Those that do report often take hours, days, weeks, even years to do so. There are so many reasons. Shame, guilt, embarassment, fear....

www.rainn.org is a good website. http://www.rainn.org/statistics/reporting-rape.html has some interesting stats on children reporting sexual assault.

OP, I'm sure your ds does feel sorry. Writing the letter is a good idea, IMO, but I'd make it his idea. "What do you think we could do to make cousin sally feel better?" And let him suggest something. I think it's a good idea you take him to see someone. I don't think he's a bad child, and I have no idea what truly went on, as I was obviously not there. I think it also matters how he tried to spread her vagina appart--did he stick his fingers in her vagina and spead them--did he pull her labia? It could be a small tear on the labia, he could have broken her hymen, he could have scratched her, etc etc etc.

Marsupial, There is a difference between childish foolishness and sexual molestation, yes. But in this case, the child feels she was wronged. Another boy hurt her vagina by trying to spread it open. It made her bleed and caused her pain. If it were your daughter, would you be telling her she needed to "move on" that it were just childhood foolishness? I hope not.

Blaming your siblings for falling off the bed because they were jumping on it too is way diff then saying "So and so hurt my vagina." And the boy already admitted that he "spread her vagina appart", which as I mentioned above could easily and in a number of ways have caused bleeding.

Kelly


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## zen-ozz (Jan 8, 2004)

I am really, truly surprised by the "victim" language. I am an MSW by trade and worked for years in rape crisis and child sexual abuse agencies and know a bit about the issues surrounding abuse and assault. I see this as childhood play where someone got hurt, which is unfortunate. Look at any child development checklist and it lists sexual play as typical in childhood, changing as a child moves from toddlerhood into childhood. The truth is that none of us knows the exact words that the child used. As far as I can tell, she was not bullied. I do know that her parents see it as an assault and that may be effecting how the child views it. I understand that it is expected that the parents be upset and concerned about what happened. I too am upset and concerned. But what could have been a great learning opportunity for all the children has turned into something horrible that will serve to tear the family apart. Imagine the difference if the parents had called me and decided that we should all get together and talk to the kids together about why touching in that way is not allowed to happen. Imagine if the parents had expressed to my DS their feelings about this and talked to him in an approriate way. Imagine if DS had been allowed to apologize to her (which he sincerely wanted to do) and they had been allowed to work through it. Non of that will happen. What will happen is that they will avoid us for months and then when we finally do see them it will all be brushed under the rug and will never be talked about again.

I really do appreciate everyone's response. It has helped me to see where they may be coming from. But I am very concerned that we are turning childhood into such a scary thing for kids. Sexual development is normal. Exploring each others bodies is normal. It is our job as parents to teach our kids about healthy choices and clear boundaries. Sometimes we are faced with difficult circumstances, but handled the right way they can be turned into teaching moments where kids learn more than they ever could from talks and lectures. To deny that this is a normal part of child development is to rob kids of healthy growth.


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## hipem (Jul 13, 2005)

Well said, zen-ozz. Sorry for this rough time for your whole family.


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

I think most 5 year olds know better than to touch someone elses "private area". I would be horrified if a 5 yo boy spread my daughters labia apart. PLease definitely see a therapist for your son. At what age does it become not okay to you? 5 1-2? 6? 6.5? 7? Very scary indeed.
Hugs to your niece.


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## Oh the Irony (Dec 14, 2003)

zen-ozz, i just found it disengenous that people were looking for other ways that the girl could have injured herself enough to cause bleeding. even you, in your first post, question that this could have happened without your hearing it.
when your son admittedly says he spread her vagina, it just seems to be reaching to me to have someone suggest it happened later in the day. it shifts questions onto the little girl--which i don't think needs to happen. that's all i meant by victim. if what was said had had none of this "shifty" quality i would never had mentioned the victim word.

i agree that your scenario of open communication would be the best for all parties involved.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I put move in parentheses because I didn't have better words for getting past a bad event. It seem like people are making this 5 year olds actions as molestation, abnormal, not normal childishness. Yes the girl feels violated and that can be validated but it doesn't need to vilify the 5 year old in the process. I do worry about his actions being made into more than what it should be. Yes, I would want my dds to "move on". I would do my best to help them get past it. I actually have to some extend. My youngest was two and broke her tail bone. A rare break for a child that age, so of course the doctor HAD to look at her privates. She didn't like it I comforter and helped her "move on" (again lack of better words). My oldest dd had many violating medical test because of her birth defect. She had tons of yeast infections because of antibiotics because of infections and surgery. She didn't like me touching her vulva because it hurt. I know she felt invaded but I helped her "move on" when she needed medicine or to be looked at by people she really didn't want looking at her.

And the reason why I suggested other possibilities is because it sounded like there was fresh blood/bleeding. Not saying a sore can't reopen but why no mention of dry blood. It is the delay in the incident, blood, and inability to urinate that cause me to question and wonder. I am not saying it isn't possible just might be more going happening. Also, I was/am looking at the ages of the children. Ages and stages does play a part here.

It isn't like I said completely ignore it. I did say go to a counselor to help you work through it. I just don't want this boy to come to see himself as something dirty and evil at the same time I don't want the little girl to live in a "victim hood" because something is thrown out of proportion.

Nunmom, I must be really horrible, among others on this board. I remember being 5 and playing doctor. If you look at anatomy it is harder to see girl parts than boy parts, hence the need to spread. I am not saying this is desirable behavior but age appropriate behavior. I was the kid that convince the boy to pull down his pants. I knew what my parts were, I had looked at them and touched them. I am sure glad nobody got to horrified over it.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Child Sexual Development
http://www.ejhs.org/volume3/Haroian/body.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexuality


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom*

Nunmom, I must be really horrible, among others on this board. I remember being 5 and playing doctor. If you look at anatomy it is harder to see girl parts than boy parts, hence the need to spread. I am not saying this is desirable behavior but age appropriate behavior. I was the kid that convince the boy to pull down his pants. I knew what my parts were, I had looked at them and touched them. I am sure glad nobody got to horrified over it.

I think horrified is a perfectly normal parental reaction when one's five-year-old daughter is bleeding vaginally as a result of sexual play. If it was my daughter I would be having a fit.

Really, I would get a trained professional involved. This has the potential of messing up your entire family, and it doesn't sound as if anyone has a clear picture of what exactly happened. A counselor might be able to get to the bottom of it and help your family to heal.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

ITA with AM's advice to involve a trained professional in this.

I can't imaigine a girl bleeding from simply having her vaginal lips spread. I mean, she does that daily while wiping and bathing. Because of that, I would have concerns with exactly what did happen.

Have you, OP, heard anything from the family?


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I think that, in this situation, I would definitely consult a professional. I might also write to the other parents and let them know all the actions you've taken and give them an update on your child(ren). This is what I would do as the parent in your situation and this is what I would like to see happen if I were the parent of the other little girl.

I'm not an expert on any of this AT ALL but (and maybe I don't need to say this) but it seems like your son needs some more information. He's obviously very curious and not able to follow your instructions to just "not touch other people's privates". There may also be a mixed message going on where one part of you knows this is "normal" and the other part saying he shouldn't do it. I would talk (books, videos, role playing and ect) to him quite a bit more about this as well as keep a much closer eye on him.

And, I hate to say this, but until this gets resolved I would either tell the parents of his playmates and/or not allow unsupervised play. I know that if a friend had to tell me something like this I would treat her and her child with the utmost respect and do all that I could to help.

Thanks for sharing, mama. I'm anticipating the day where I need to navigate sexual experimentation between my child and another and it's not somethign I feel remotely prepared for.

I hope things are getting better for your entire family.


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Starr*
Think of if the tables were turned and something like this happened to your DD. I think your BIL and SIL have a valid right to be concerned, I do hope for her sake they take her to a Dr. But to me this is a step above playing Dr. and I'll show you mine if ou show me yours. I would reiterate to your son that while its normal to be curious he needs to respect boundaries and other peoples bodies. This was going to far. I'm glad your taking him to be seen.

As a matter of fact, the tables have been turned many times on this board. Except the poster was the mom of the girl. In almost every case, posters have advised police investigation

Quote:

But what could have been a great learning opportunity for all the children










I cannot believe the reaction of some. This goes way WAY beyond normal childhood exploration.







to you zen-ozz, I hope your little boy hasn't suffered at someone else's hands. Hopefully, your sil and bil will get their dd help........


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
I think horrified is a perfectly normal parental reaction when one's five-year-old daughter is bleeding vaginally as a result of sexual play. If it was my daughter I would be having a fit.

.

Exactly. I really believe if a mama had come on here explaining what had happened from the niece;s point of view, noone would be downplaying it at all!


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## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lab*
As a matter of fact, the tables have been turned many times on this board. Except the poster was the mom of the girl. In almost every case, posters have advised police investigation










I cannot believe the reaction of some. This goes way WAY beyond normal childhood exploration.







to you zen-ozz, I hope your little boy hasn't suffered at someone else's hands. Hopefully, your sil and bil will get their dd help........

Exactly my point lab. Thank you


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## Isadora (Mar 22, 2005)

Quote:

I can't imaigine a girl bleeding from simply having her vaginal lips spread.
It's possible her hymen was broken.


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## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Isadora*
It's possible her hymen was broken.

Huh? Your hymen is INSIDE your vagina. You can spread your "lips" all you want, it wouldn't touch the inside of the vaginal walls, where the hymen is. Go try it out in the bathroom--spread your labia as far as you can without causing pain (or with, if you're that curious...although I don't advise intentionally hurting your yoni), and concentrate on how your vagina feels. You shouldn't really notice the tugging inside the vagina at all.

For her hymen to have been broken or ripped, there would have had to have been penetration of some sort, which there may or may not have been. But a hymen doesn't rip by "simply having her vaginal lips spread".

FTR, you can have bleeding just from spreading the labia. I've seen women with such dry labia and surrounding tissue, that just opening their legs wide for a vag. exam caused them to bleed. Sure, it was only a little blood, and these were usually women going through menopause or BFing. But we don't know how much blood there was, so it seems possible (not likely, but possible) that this little girl maybe had her legs open for the playing, maybe her labia dried out being exposed to the air, then the little boy spread them, and that resulted in tiny tears in the mucous membranes.

Kelly


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CookieMonsterMommy*
Huh? Your hymen is INSIDE your vagina. You can spread your "lips" all you want, it wouldn't touch the inside of the vaginal walls, where the hymen is. Go try it out in the bathroom--spread your labia as far as you can without causing pain (or with, if you're that curious...although I don't advise intentionally hurting your yoni), and concentrate on how your vagina feels. You shouldn't really notice the tugging inside the vagina at all.

For her hymen to have been broken or ripped, there would have had to have been penetration of some sort, which there may or may not have been. But a hymen doesn't rip by "simply having her vaginal lips spread".

FTR, you can have bleeding just from spreading the labia. I've seen women with such dry labia and surrounding tissue, that just opening their legs wide for a vag. exam caused them to bleed. Sure, it was only a little blood, and these were usually women going through menopause or BFing. But we don't know how much blood there was, so it seems possible (not likely, but possible) that this little girl maybe had her legs open for the playing, maybe her labia dried out being exposed to the air, then the little boy spread them, and that resulted in tiny tears in the mucous membranes.

Kelly

Cookie you bring up another issue and why I think the girl should have been taken to the doctor. What if she had labial adhesions and he (or she) broke them accidentally? It is completely possible that she had undiagnosed adhesions. That is something I didn't think about earlier. I would admit if something like this happend I would be taking my girls to the doctor.

I also would doubt the "value" in immediately calling the police in this situation. In many situations you can have as much interaction with the kids and parents. Imagine the impact on the 3 year old and the 5 year old if police got involved in something that might have been childishness with out medical and mental evolution? This in a situation were communications can and should be happening. What about on the chance the 5 yr old boy is being molested and this caused his sexual curiosity? Do you think he is going to be more willing to talk or deal with it if he has a police officer mishandle or ignore the possibility? How afriad and embarrassed is the 3 year old going to become if she sees mom and daddy talking to the police about her injuriy? Not saying there isn't a time and place for it but should be done with caution.

We as parents can over react. And our actions cause more harm than good. None of us suggested doing nothing we suggested not over reacting and getting outside help. I still don't think this is anything more that childhood age and stage thing that isn't appropriate but also not something to be blow out of proportion.


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## myhoneyswife (Apr 30, 2005)

I don't think this has been brought up, but my first reaction to reading this was that the girls parents probably feel guilty for allowing it to happen, and thus might be either reluctant to take her to the doctor or exagerating what happened to make your son look bad (or neither, those are just my gut reactions). I think it's normal childhood behaviour to be curious, but I would not ever allow my child, especially a girl, to be alone with peers, even of the same sex.

I totally understand the situation with the 1 year old, and I don't blame anyone at all, I just think that as a parent I'd probably feel guilty about it.

Cara


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom*

I also would doubt the "value" in immediately calling the police in this situation. In many situations you can have as much interaction with the kids and parents. Imagine the impact on the 3 year old and the 5 year old if police got involved in something that might have been childishness with out medical and mental evolution? This in a situation were communications can and should be happening. What about on the chance the 5 yr old boy is being molested and this caused his sexual curiosity? Do you think he is going to be more willing to talk or deal with it if he has a police officer mishandle or ignore the possibility? How afriad and embarrassed is the 3 year old going to become if she sees mom and daddy talking to the police about her injuriy? Not saying there isn't a time and place for it but should be done with caution.

I looked over this whole thread and can't find one post suggesting anyone call the police.


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## CookieMonsterMommy (Oct 15, 2002)

Oh, I agree that she should be taken to the doctor.

*However* in my (possibly paranoid) mind, that may just open a can of worms. Unless you've got a doc you can really trust, I'd be worried that the doc--being a mandated reporter--would report the case to CPS or the police. Legally, the parents are supposed to be the child's protector, and from a legal standpoint, they "let" this happen to her. Not to mention how they may treat the OP's 5yo ds. I don't agree with this at all, but I'm telling you they way it is sometimes.

Kelly


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## Starr (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CookieMonsterMommy*
Oh, I agree that she should be taken to the doctor.

*However* in my (possibly paranoid) mind, that may just open a can of worms. Unless you've got a doc you can really trust, I'd be worried that the doc--being a mandated reporter--would report the case to CPS or the police. Legally, the parents are supposed to be the child's protector, and from a legal standpoint, they "let" this happen to her. Not to mention how they may treat the OP's 5yo ds. I don't agree with this at all, but I'm telling you they way it is sometimes.

Kelly

I was wondering the same thing...







Any update on how things are going? Hope everyone is ok.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Quote:

Exploring each others bodies is normal.
NO. Exploring your own body is perfectly normal and acceptable. Hurting another childs genitals is not ok. It's not developmentally appropriate and it's sexual abuse, at ANY age. I can't believe the reactions here condoning this.







I'm glad you're getting help for him. If possible, you could provide a few sessions for your niece as well.


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## zen-ozz (Jan 8, 2004)

I guess I didn't update the board on this particular fact: When I spoke to my sil the next day, she said there was "a bit of blood on the toilet paper." This is quite a bit different than the initial image I was left with after speaking to my mother in law. I believe it is quite possible that her labia simply got scratched by my DSs fingernail. The skin on my DD's labia can bleed from vigorous wiping, so it seems that this could be a possibility. I think labial adhesions are an interesting possibility. My daughter had them, they certainly aren't uncommon.

It also needs to be clear that this child did not appear to be injured in any way at the time that the play occurred. It was only later, when she tried to urinate that she experienced pain. This would be consistent with a scratch on her labia. My DS had no idea he hurt her. He asked if he could look at her vagina, she said yes, and he did so. When he found out she had been hurt he was very upset and felt horrible.

As I mentioned before, I suggested that they see the pediatrician. I actually felt fairly certain the she would alleviate some of the fear and anxiety that the parents are feeling. I am not sure whether they brought her or not. In an interesting twist, my husband is close friends with their pediatrician's husband. They have worked together for many years. I don't know her well, because her schedule doesn't allow a lot of time for socializing, but we have spent time together.

I continue to be quite surprised by the stance that this is "child sexual abuse." I have plenty of experience with sexual abuse, as I mentioned before, and this is far from it. Were the authorities to be involved, as someone else mentioned, it would only be due to 'parental neglect', and not 'abuse' from one child to another. If the child abuse hotline were to be called, I am certain that they would not accept the call. This does not meet the legal definition of child sexual abuse, nor does it meet the common sense definition, in my mind.

I highly suggest that people visit the sites posted by Marsupialmom or visit the following sites:

http://www.socialhealtheducation.org....html#Fromage5

http://www.earlychildhood.com/Articl...=Article&A=120

These resources clearly indicate that it is within the normal parameters of child developement for children to play sexual games with one another.

For me and my DS, the point that is the most important is the lack of communication by my bil and sil. We have not heard from them and I don't exptect that we will. What their child is learning is that when she tells the truth, she loses her people that are important in her life. What my DS is learning is that you can't make a mistake and feel remorse and be forgiven. It seems to be some very sad and unneccesary lessons, indeed.


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## ollineeba (Apr 12, 2005)

I'm just sorry that the whole thing happened.. I hope this all heals over and you're able to find peace and move on.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zen-ozz*
I I believe it is quite possible that her labia simply got scratched by my DSs fingernail.

That should not have been in her vagina. I think there is more to this story. A teeny scratch does not explain her inability to urinate. No way.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zen-ozz*
These resources clearly indicate that it is within the normal parameters of child developement for children to play sexual games with one another.

What you are explaining resulted in a child being injured and calling it a game seems to downplay that fact.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zen-ozz*
What their child is learning is that when she tells the truth, she loses her people that are important in her life. What my DS is learning is that you can't make a mistake and feel remorse and be forgiven. It seems to be some very sad and unneccesary lessons, indeed.

I understand that you have experience with these things. As parents, we are not always able to be contentious objectors when it comes to our children. It's a natural reaction to protect your child but it's also important to consider the victim.


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## MindfulBirth (Mar 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *my~hearts~light*
NO. Exploring your own body is perfectly normal and acceptable. Hurting another childs genitals is not ok. It's not developmentally appropriate and it's sexual abuse, at ANY age. I can't believe the reactions here condoning this.







I'm glad you're getting help for him. If possible, you could provide a few sessions for your niece as well.

I agree.

Yes..sexual exploration is normal..but there is a HUGE difference between a 5 year old and a 3 year old socially. Looking at my own 3 yr old DD, I don't think she would understand that someone sticking their finger in her vagina is "just a game". We were at the ER recently and she became frightened and confused when the doctor suddenly unzipped her pants to feel her abdomen without asking. But just being 3 she didn't know to say "NO" or "I'm uncomfortable with this."

I agree with others that getting the police involved is probably not the best idea and you have to be careful with explaning what happened to any doc who examine the girl. But the incident should not be dismissed as harmless play.


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## soygurl (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CookieMonsterMommy*
Huh? Your hymen is INSIDE your vagina. You can spread your "lips" all you want, it wouldn't touch the inside of the vaginal walls, where the hymen is. Go try it out in the bathroom--spread your labia as far as you can without causing pain (or with, if you're that curious...although I don't advise intentionally hurting your yoni), and concentrate on how your vagina feels. You shouldn't really notice the tugging inside the vagina at all.

For her hymen to have been broken or ripped, there would have had to have been penetration of some sort, which there may or may not have been. But a hymen doesn't rip by "simply having her vaginal lips spread".

Are you sure you know where the hymen is? Maybe I'm just missunderstanding your wording, but they hymen is not INSIDE the vagina, it covers the opening to the vagina, and is generaly conected to the inner labia ("lips")/surrounding tissue. These links might clear it up (WARNING: explicit images of genitalia):
http://www.the-clitoris.com/f_html/hymen.htm (really clear & complete info)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymen
(no explicit photos): http://www.healthystrokes.com/hymengallery.html

Many girls have their hymen partially torn/stretched by doing gymnastics (esp. the splits), riding horses, or riding a bike, all of wich do not include penitration of any kind.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CookieMonsterMommy*
FTR, you can have bleeding just from spreading the labia. I've seen women with such dry labia and surrounding tissue, that just opening their legs wide for a vag. exam caused them to bleed. Sure, it was only a little blood, and these were usually women going through menopause or BFing. But we don't know how much blood there was, so it seems possible (not likely, but possible) that this little girl maybe had her legs open for the playing, maybe her labia dried out being exposed to the air, then the little boy spread them, and that resulted in tiny tears in the mucous membranes.

I think this is very likely. It makes sense that if this women experience labial bleeding during menopause or BFing (both times when hormones are not at normal levels) that a (very) pre-pubescent girl could/would experience a similar thing. I also think the possibility that the OP's DS might have accidentally scratched her labia is extremely likely. Like she said, it would cause pain upon urination, and would show a little blood on the TP. Makes perfect sense. Regardless, I think the idea that this was "sexual assault" is ridiculous! there are MANY ways this little girl could have gotten hurt (esp. those above), and all of them completely innocent. I babysat a little girl who once came home from pre-school and pulled down her pants to show my the blood on the sanitary pad she had on, and told me about how she fell off her bicycle and hurt herself (of course I immediately had her pull up her pants and reminded her about private parts, etc. and gave her my condolences about her injury.). Would this be considered sexual assault? No. Yes, I realize there is a difference between a bike injury, and an injury after two little kids playing "doctor" but nevertheless, the idea that this incident could be considered sexual assault is ludicrous.

~Kelsie


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

That still doesn't explain inability to urinate.


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## WendyC (Jun 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
I think most 5 year olds know better than to touch someone elses "private area". I would be horrified if a 5 yo boy spread my daughters labia apart. PLease definitely see a therapist for your son. At what age does it become not okay to you? 5 1-2? 6? 6.5? 7? Very scary indeed.
Hugs to your niece.

I absoultly disagree. I have vivid memories of beimg 5 or 6 and playing doctor - we did things like spread our labia apart all the time too look inside and explore each others bodies. There is nothing abnormal about that.

I wonder if the hypersexualization of our culture and our children is causing this oversensitivation to a normal childhood development.

To the OP







what a difficult time for your family - I feel for your little one.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Well, of course if _you_ did it, it must be perfectly acceptable.


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## remixrocka (Mar 6, 2006)

okay, everyone take a deep breath. this is a sensitive topic but i think we should all respect each other. we must remember that all that is being done on this board is speculations and none of us were there, no one is effected by the advise they give out except the OP and her family and most of us arent experts (OP please remember that).


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

My breathing is fine, thankyouverymuch.

It does not good to anyone to tell her that it's ok and we're all so sorry her son is upset.

I'm not saying that he's a bad kid or to call the police and I hope it has not been received that way. I'm saying that the concern needs to be first for the child that was hurt. Her parents have every right to be enraged! It's important to reflect on how you'd feel if the shoe was on the other foot.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Nobody is unconcerned about the little girl or surprised her parents are upset. There is nothing the OP can do except give that family the space they need while they process this unfortunate incident. Please let this thread die now







.


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## Laggie (Nov 2, 2005)

The term "inability to urinate" seems to be vague in this context... It's not clear whether she actually could not urinate, or complained of pain when she did.

A scratch could obviously cause stinging, leading to crying etc. Of course it would not make her actually unable to pee, but it sounds like that's not what actually happened. It sounds more like the little girl freaked out when she went to the bathroom and it hurt. Of course I wasn't there so I'm making assumptions, but it does sound like the extent of the injury was exagerrated at first.

If she was actually physically unable to urinate a much greater trauma would have had to happen. And I would hope the child would have been taken to a doctor, as that would be a serious problem.


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## Changed (Mar 14, 2004)

Unsubbing now. It's become rather obvious what was intended here and I will not participate in it.


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## Cloverlove (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zen-ozz*
For me and my DS, the point that is the most important is the lack of communication by my bil and sil. We have not heard from them and I don't exptect that we will.

I guess I am wondering why it is up to them to call you? Maybe you could send them a letter or email? You could ask how their dd is doing. You could also explain how terrible ds feels and how he would really like to apologize, but understand if their dd needs some time. You could also let them know that your ds has been very curious about anatomy after it was explained that a baby comes out of a vagina. You could also mention any steps you are taking to see that this doesn't happen again.

I truely do feel for you. But at this point, I think it is up to you to contact them-- not the other way around.

As for if this is normal behavior... I have no idea. I only know that if ds did this when he was 5 (especially after the first time) I would be very concerned. Good luck.


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## Cloverlove (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *my~hearts~light*
Unsubbing now. It's become rather obvious what was intended here and I will not participate in it.

I'm curious, what was intended?


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## zen-ozz (Jan 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cloverlove*
I guess I am wondering why it is up to them to call you?

Thanks Cloverlove. I actually have called them twice and my husband called them once. I called them back the night that the incident occurred to offer my sincerest apologies and to let them know that I was taking it very seriously. I called the next day to see how neice is doing and to express that DS was very concerned that she was hurt. And DH called today (at my request) to again see how they were all doing (sil could not talk because she had company and as far as I know has not called back).

I agree it would be good to let them know what steps I have taken with DS (and DD for that matter) in terms of ensuring this doesn't happen again. But at this point I feel like it is best to give them time. We have reached out and now is time to wait.

I agree with PPs who suggest it may be time to let this thread die. I really am thankful to all for your help through this tough time for us. I feel like DS will be ok and I hope that our neice is okay and the relationships heal.


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## Wolfmeis (Nov 16, 2004)

redundant

OP I agree with you on all counts.


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## bohjen (Sep 16, 2013)

I am dealing with a nearly exact situation right now, from the other parents (in-laws) perspective.

I am totally surprised by the many posters here in total support of this being "normal" behavior. Perhaps it is easy to call this "normal" for the boy who decided to satisfy his curiosities, despite being recently told not to touch others' privates. What about the experience for the 3 year old girl? She most likely looked up to the older cousin and didn't realize that she was uncomfortable with the situation until all was done. Is it considered "normal" for a 3 year old girl to have her genitalia explored by someone other than herself? No, it is not normal for her.

I think in situations like these, it is SO important to separate the individual experiences for the involved children. In many cases, they did not share in the same experience. For him, he was just curious, and meant no harm. For her? Chances are that she was confused, felt led into the situation, and now has a lasting impression of discomfort. Just because he meant no harm to her DOES NOT mean he did no harm to her. She may be desensitized to the importance of privacy. She may be confused and think that it is normal for older children to touch her privates. She, God-forbid, may now "play doctor" with another child, thinking it is acceptable, only to perpetuate harm under the guise of "exploring each others bodies".

I allow each of my children to explore their own bodies privately. I expect it. I am also in support of calling this "normal", if it is the first time, and the child has not yet had the "boundaries" talk. I absolutely do not think it's "normal" if all children involved do not have a positive experience that satisfies curiosity. If a child leaves a "doctor" session feeling sad and violated, who are we as adults to call what was done to her "normal"?

What about some respect for the young girls' innocence and privacy?


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