# Please tell me why we think GD works?



## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

I hear all the time on this board about kids who are out of control. My kids are total brats 75% of the time. I love them to death but they don't listen to a word I say, they scream in my face, they smack me, they basically do whatever they want. I have completely had it and am strongly considering sending them to school just to get away from them. I really am starting to think gentle discipline does not work. I would never have considered acting like that or speaking to my parents that way. Neither would my husband. We try talking to them, we try behaviour charts, we try time-outs, we try taking away privileges, we try working things out but nothing works. I mean, really - why would a kid care if they get sent to their room for 10 minutes or lose computer privileges for two days? They don't care. I don't want my kids to fear me but in some ways I wish they did enough to give me a little respect. Some days I wish I had never had kids. I am so tired of the all the crap.


----------



## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

I think that for most of us, it's not really about it 'working'. I am reading Hold on to Your Kids and for me, THATS what it is all about. It's about relationship with my children. GD is not letting the mdo what they want. I find that I have very high standards for my dd, and that she usually is totally willing and capable to attaining those standards. I also am pretty well versed in normal toddler/age appropriate behavior, so that helps me understand her abilities and expect her behavior accordingly. When she is doing something that is unacceptable, (hurting people or property for example) I do of course stop it, but I try to get to the heart of what is going on. I KNOW her, I KNOW she wants to 'fit in' with those adults around her. I try to honor the impuse, get in her head a little, see things from her point of view. If she hauls off and whacks me, I try to not see that as one isolated incident. I remember what was going on before/during the incident, was she trying to tell me something and I wasn't getting it, was she tired, overstimulated, hungry, ect. I DONT make excuses for her. She is NOT allowed to hit or otherwise hurt someone, but she is doing it because she doesn't have te ability yet to control her impuses 100% of the time. Heck *I* dont have that ability! I tell what she did was hurtful, and find another way of telling me what she needs. THat, to me, is what gentle discipline is all about. And why it 'works'. Punative parents may stop the behavior right away, they may have seemingly perfect children, but I question whether they have really gotten to the heart attitude of said behavior problems. I dont want dd to share because I am standing over her forcing her to share 'or else'. I want her to share because there is a need or desire from that other person, and it is the right thing to do. Gentle discipline is more than stopping/starting certain behaviors. It's about building a lifelong relationship. It's that you (the parent/guardian) can be trusted. It's about modeling unconditional love, and acceptance of that small human being. I tend to think of my dd the same way I think of my dh/mother/sister/bf, just with less experience and information. I fully believe she wants to do the right thing. She just needs the information to make those choices. And she needs to know that she can always come to me/dh because we will offer our love and acceptance. Hope that makes sense.


----------



## Liam's Mum (Jan 9, 2007)

too. Well, considering I have a post in here right now wondering what the heck I'm doing wrong, I'm probably not qualified to answer. Why I _aspire_ to GD is because I'm trying to keep in mind longterm results. Trying to remember that preschoolers (of which I have 1) don't learn things the first time we tell them, or they wouldn't need us for the next X years! I _try_ to remember it is more important to teach DS something than for him to do something because he fears punishment from me. After all, a child who does what s/he is told on demand no questions asked is not really learning to make choices her/himself, or why we do or don't do certain things. And we all ultimately want to raise kids that think for themselves, don't we (as frustrating as it can be at this young age when yeah, it would be nice to have them be a bit more, uh, cooperative at times, in reality, their strength will serve them well in years to come)?

After all, go to other sites and see posts from parents whose children are challenging them as well despite repeated punishments. The punishments don't seem to be working too well if they have to be repeated. Or sometimes the child just learns not to get caught


----------



## devster4fun (Jan 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommy2abigail* 







I think that for most of us, it's not really about it 'working'. I am reading Hold on to Your Kids and for me, THATS what it is all about. It's about relationship with my children. GD is not letting the mdo what they want. I find that I have very high standards for my dd, and that she usually is totally willing and capable to attaining those standards. I also am pretty well versed in normal toddler/age appropriate behavior, so that helps me understand her abilities and expect her behavior accordingly. When she is doing something that is unacceptable, (hurting people or property for example) I do of course stop it, but I try to get to the heart of what is going on. I KNOW her, I KNOW she wants to 'fit in' with those adults around her. I try to honor the impuse, get in her head a little, see things from her point of view. If she hauls off and whacks me, I try to not see that as one isolated incident. I remember what was going on before/during the incident, was she trying to tell me something and I wasn't getting it, was she tired, overstimulated, hungry, ect. I DONT make excuses for her. She is NOT allowed to hit or otherwise hurt someone, but she is doing it because she doesn't have te ability yet to control her impuses 100% of the time. Heck *I* dont have that ability! I tell what she did was hurtful, and find another way of telling me what she needs. THat, to me, is what gentle discipline is all about. And why it 'works'. Punative parents may stop the behavior right away, they may have seemingly perfect children, but I question whether they have really gotten to the heart attitude of said behavior problems. I dont want dd to share because I am standing over her forcing her to share 'or else'. I want her to share because there is a need or desire from that other person, and it is the right thing to do. Gentle discipline is more than stopping/starting certain behaviors. It's about building a lifelong relationship. It's that you (the parent/guardian) can be trusted. It's about modeling unconditional love, and acceptance of that small human being. I tend to think of my dd the same way I think of my dh/mother/sister/bf, just with less experience and information. I fully believe she wants to do the right thing. She just needs the information to make those choices. And she needs to know that she can always come to me/dh because we will offer our love and acceptance. Hope that makes sense.

Well said! I appreciate the part about respecting the child as you would any other member of the family. To me, that's the heart of the issue.

Perhaps GD is like a lot of things in life. In the long run, it's the best choice. In the end, the child evolves into a compassionate, honest and fun-loving adult. But, sometimes the "right now," can be very challenging and frustrating.

To the OP, I'm sorry you're frustrated...anyone would be. I have a 13.5 month DD, so I have no idea what advice to give you. I often wonder what we're in store for, with my curious, strong-willed and wonderful DD


----------



## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

This is why I don't think punishment "works."

Building a relationship founded on trust and communication works. Problem solving works. Finding ways to make life fun works.

But assuming that your children are not motivated to be attached and close to you, working together ...and seeking to find the experience that is sufficiently unpleasant to them to get them to behave a particular way seems very likely to backfire. And exhaust and aggravate you.


----------



## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
I hear all the time on this board about kids who are out of control. My kids are total brats 75% of the time. I love them to death but they don't listen to a word I say, they scream in my face, they smack me, they basically do whatever they want. I have completely had it and am strongly considering sending them to school just to get away from them. I really am starting to think gentle discipline does not work. I would never have considered acting like that or speaking to my parents that way. Neither would my husband. We try talking to them, we try behaviour charts, we try time-outs, we try taking away privileges, we try working things out but nothing works. I mean, really - why would a kid care if they get sent to their room for 10 minutes or lose computer privileges for two days? They don't care. I don't want my kids to fear me but in some ways I wish they did enough to give me a little respect. Some days I wish I had never had kids. I am so tired of the all the crap.

I have moments that I feel like I could have written something like this. Lately it has been creeping up more as we are 7 weeks away from having our second child. I have created a safe place in my home where I go when I don't know how else to deal with something that my son is doing. Believe me, I have my shining moments where I scream, and throw things, etc., but we have already decided that those are not ways that are going to work for our family. It is a process of elimination. Those things DON'T work. So this is what I created after watching Alfie Kohn's Unconditional Parenting: (I have posted it in several places in my house)

What CAN we Do???
1. *Reconsider your requests:* When control pulls in one direction, connection pulls in another...
2. *Put the relationship first:* Being "right" isn't more important that my connection with Sawyer.
3. *Love has to be unconditional:* No matter what Sawyer does, I will never stop loving him. How do my actions convey that to him?
4. *Look at the world through Sawyer's eyes:* How would I feel if someone spoke to me the way I spoke to my child?
5. *Be authentic:* Don't pretend to be more competent that you are. be apologetic.
6. *Talk less; ask more*
7. *Attribute to children the best possible motive consistant with the facts:* Why assume that Sawyer has the worst intentions? I will assume the best when I don't know why Sawyer does something.
8. *Try to say YES when you can:* Sawyer will not get better at coping with unhappiness because he was deliberately made unhappy in his youth.
9. *Don't be rigid, be flexible:* Messes can be cleaned.
10. *Let kids decide whenever possible:* I will let Sawyer practice his autonomy. Kids learn from making decisions, not following directions.

I have this posted next to a huge no spanking stop sign that I printed from nospank.net. This is where I go to read and count and breathe...


----------



## Benji'sMom (Sep 14, 2004)

I don't have children that age so maybe this isn't worth much, but my first thought is, Do they disrespect you because you don't spank them, or do they disrespect you because of something else? Like for example just last night on the infamous Super Nanny, (I know, I know, we hate her) there was a girl who always hit and kicked her mother. Not for lack of punishment, but for other reasons like stress in the family and not enough attention (because there were 4 kids total and one was special needs and took up a LOT of the mother's time). Anyway my point is: Discipline wasn't the real issue, it was really all this other commotion going on in the home. I actually think that happens a lot. I know a lot of brats whose parents spank them, put them on their knees, etc. -- the kids are still brats regardless of the discipline technique. Meanwhile the parents are alcoholics with horrible marital problems, or the father calls the mother fat and stupid in front of the kids, or maybe the mother says she hopes her current pregnancy is a boy because she doesn't want another girl (in front of her DD) etc etc -- Gee, you think that might be the real problem??? Anyway, NOT saying you shame your children so horribly, but perhaps there's something besides discipline that needs an overhall.

But you're a long time member so maybe there's nothing I could tell you that you haven't thought of already or read about...


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I consider myself GD, and I have a very well behaved, fun to be around child.

I think there is a difference between being GD and being a pushover. I think that difference gets confused a lot.









I would NOT tolerate being hit or physically assaulted by my child. No way. We had a phase where she tried that, I let her know clearly that she had violated a boundary, basically that what she was doing was taboo according to mama. I just did that with my tone, with full expectation she would stop. Much like in a way, how I tell my dog to sit. I expect compliance with my tone.

I feel like the choreographer in my house, the mama, the one who sets parametres and creates... the 'container.' Within which my child gets to dance and grow. I do not see us as equals. I do not think I have to put up with unacceptable behaviour.

I treat my child respectfully. I promote attachment, I genuinely delight in being with her. I differentiate between unacceptable behaviour, and an unaccpetable *person*. She knows clearly that she is adored in every moment, even when I am asserting that this or that of a thing that she is doing is not okay. If she needs clarifying of that differentiation in the moment, I happily and lovingly provide that clarification.

But she is not unruly. This is hard to describe. It's like we're a team, and I'm the team leader. It's a loving team that she desires to be part of. As do I. But we each have our roles. I'm the mama.

For me that is the balance of GD that works. I tried some of the stuff that meant the child has too much power, and it felt wrong. This is what we do, and it is lovely and harmonious for us.


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soybeansmama* 
What CAN we Do???
1. *Reconsider your requests:* When control pulls in one direction, connection pulls in another...
2. *Put the relationship first:* Being "right" isn't more important that my connection with Sawyer.
3. *Love has to be unconditional:* No matter what Sawyer does, I will never stop loving him. How do my actions convey that to him?
4. *Look at the world through Sawyer's eyes:* How would I feel if someone spoke to me the way I spoke to my child?
5. *Be authentic:* Don't pretend to be more competent that you are. be apologetic.
6. *Talk less; ask more*
7. *Attribute to children the best possible motive consistant with the facts:* Why assume that Sawyer has the worst intentions? I will assume the best when I don't know why Sawyer does something.
8. *Try to say YES when you can:* Sawyer will not get better at coping with unhappiness because he was deliberately made unhappy in his youth.
9. *Don't be rigid, be flexible:* Messes can be cleaned.
10. *Let kids decide whenever possible:* I will let Sawyer practice his autonomy. Kids learn from making decisions, not following directions.

.

I agree with this. I did this with my child, without ever reading it in a book. I just naturally did most of this.

I have raised a wonderful child. She is 14 now, and has always been a very happy kid. Other parents would ask her to come over because she was such a pleasant child to have around.

BUT, she never, ever tried to hit me, or purposely treat me with disrespect. She never would have hurt my feelings, much less take a swing at me.

So, everybody (not singling out sbm) here is saying "It's o.k if your children slap you, as long as they are happy, and YOU treat them with respect".

Because that is what I am hearing.

They aren't required to love and respect back?


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
I don't want my kids to fear me but in some ways I wish they did enough to give me a little respect.

This is the balance. It doesn't have to be achieved by spanking. It can be achieved IMO simply by commanding that level of respect. It's the whole "We teach people how to treat us" thing. Works with our children too.


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I consider myself GD, and I have a very well behaved, fun to be around child.

I think there is a difference between being GD and being a pushover. I think that difference gets confused a lot.









I would NOT tolerate being hit or physically assaulted by my child. No way. We had a phase where she tried that, I let her know clearly that she had violated a boundary, basically that what she was doing was taboo according to mama. I just did that with my tone, with full expectation she would stop. Much like in a way, how I tell my dog to sit. I expect compliance with my tone.

I feel like the choreographer in my house, the mama, the one who sets parametres and creates... the 'container.' Within which my child gets to dance and grow. I do not see us as equals. I do not think I have to put up with unacceptable behaviour.

I treat my child respectfully. I promote attachment, I genuinely delight in being with her. I differentiate between unacceptable behaviour, and an unaccpetable *person*. She knows clearly that she is adored in every moment, even when I am asserting that this or that of a thing that she is doing is not okay. If she needs clarifying of that differentiation in the moment, I happily and lovingly provide that clarification.

But she is not unruly. This is hard to describe. It's like we're a team, and I'm the team leader. It's a loving team that she desires to be part of. As do I. But we each have our roles. I'm the mama.

For me that is the balance of GD that works. I tried some of the stuff that meant the child has too much power, and it felt wrong. This is what we do, and it is lovely and harmonious for us.









:

That was pretty much how we do it.


----------



## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Telling them that it is not okay to hurt you or talk mean to you is communicating. Not being a pushover. It opens up communication.

It doesn't mean that it's acceptable.

Then you can tell them how you want to be treated. You can insist on being treated well.

It's got nothing to do with punishment.


----------



## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

As I recall, at least until VERY recently (please say you've been able to move...







) you've all been in a very stressful living situation with inlaws playing games and trying to undermine your parenting. I would bet big bucks your kids are still dealing with that.

hang in there.

-Angela


----------



## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I consider myself GD, and I have a very well behaved, fun to be around child.

I think there is a difference between being GD and being a pushover. I think that difference gets confused a lot.

I agree. It sounds like it might be a good time to really reassess how you are approaching things. Are you really practicing gentle discipline or are you being a jellyfish (to use Barbara Coloroso's term). Is there are consistant message your kids are getting or is it a combination of push me until I crack and then do something punitive.

Gentle discipline looks for more than what works today. If all you wanted was obedience today you could probably be mean enough through violence or threats to have that "work" right now. But, the long term results wouldn't be good. That said, if what you've got are cranky kids, unhappy adults and no feeling of community in your house I'd say it is time to critically reassess.

Maybe it would be good to post ages and some of the specific problems you are dealing with. It may be that you are caught in a cycle of being reactive - kids do x and you do y. Rather than really planning ahead to work as a team to figure out how to make your house a better place to live.

If it helps I can say I've got an 11 year old and we've practiced gentle discipline from the beginning. We are very pleased with our son - he's a kind, caring person who is very pleasant to be around. We haven't been caught in a cycle of opposition that I've seen in some families that punish and I feel really confident that he gets that we are on his side.


----------



## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

First off, hugs to you. I went through a crisis time myself, I think my son was about 2.5 years old. He had a MASSIVE meltdown in public, was in a phase of hitting me and I was just positive after seeing all these kids that behaved, that I was doing something WRONG. I'll admit it, part of me wanted him to just freakin' OBEY ... or at least not be so terrible in public!









But the more I thought about it, the more I knew that what has always worked for me with parenting is following my heart, and doing what felt right to me. When I really thought about specific situations, I wondered what being punitive would do .. and in most cases, with my son, I knew it would only escalate the situation. I should mention he's SID and was a super high needs baby and toddler as well.

Now, I don't think GD means letting them run all over you. I have used time outs (although I do sit with him because leaving him alone feels wrong to me) and I don't allow him to hit or run all over me. I have to say, at 4.5 years old, he's a pretty good kid! Sure, he has his moments .. he hadn't eaten all day and smacked me on the leg, which he has not done in well over a year. But for the most part he's a sweetie and does listen well. He's doing great in preschool, and minds his teachers even better than me.









To me, GD is about doing what feels right. It's keeping our connection intact, our communication lines open and treating my son with the same respect I want him to give me, and other people. He is not allowed to do as he pleases or run all over me, but those lessons are taught with kindness and respect, kwim?

I have seen parents that let their kids run wild and do anything and everything. I think a lot of people mistake that for GD, and it's anything but.


----------



## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
I hear all the time on this board about kids who are out of control. My kids are total brats 75% of the time. I love them to death but they don't listen to a word I say, they scream in my face, they smack me, they basically do whatever they want. I have completely had it and am strongly considering sending them to school just to get away from them. I really am starting to think gentle discipline does not work. I would never have considered acting like that or speaking to my parents that way. Neither would my husband. We try talking to them, we try behaviour charts, we try time-outs, we try taking away privileges, we try working things out but nothing works. I mean, really - why would a kid care if they get sent to their room for 10 minutes or lose computer privileges for two days? They don't care. I don't want my kids to fear me but in some ways I wish they did enough to give me a little respect. Some days I wish I had never had kids. I am so tired of the all the crap.

I didn't think that GD was working for me either...until I realized that I wasn't actually using GD. Nothing worked for me until I watched the "unconditional parenting" video by Alfie Kohn. Watching it was eye opening as to how much punishment, threatening and bribing I did with my children in the name of GD. Look at your post. Punishment, bribing, control, anger, fear....
I think that you're probably where I was about a year ago, you've got some new parenting tools, but you need more tools and instructions on how to use those tools to get over this hump. Unconditional parenting was that push for me and it's worked wonderfully. I've gone from a spanker, to where you are and now to where I am and I think I know how you feel and what might help.

In addition to Alfie Kohn's video and book, I'd suggest "Raising your spirited Child" and start with the section on spirited parents....why it's near the end is a mystery to me.









Lisa (mom to 3 wonderful children)


----------



## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
This is why I don't think punishment "works."


Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I consider myself GD, and I have a very well behaved, fun to be around child.

I think there is a difference between being GD and being a pushover. I think that difference gets confused a lot.









I would NOT tolerate being hit or physically assaulted by my child. No way. We had a phase where she tried that, I let her know clearly that she had violated a boundary, basically that what she was doing was taboo according to mama. I just did that with my tone, with full expectation she would stop. Much like in a way, how I tell my dog to sit. I expect compliance with my tone.

Just have to agree with those two posts.

I just read Secret of Parenting, and it's been helpful for us.


----------



## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

I agree with everyone else - GD is not the same as being a pushover. It's about respect. And that goes both ways.

90% of the time, my kids are a delight to be around. 7% of the time, they are OK, but things are stressful. 3% of the time, they're brats. But inevitably, that 3% of the time is when they're tired, I'm tired, they're hungry, I'm hungry (gosh, it's amazing how their behavior improves when I've been fed!), I'm stressed or dh is stressed, we're sick, we're sick and stressed and hungry... you get my point. There is ALWAYS a reason. Sometimes it's them. Sometimes it's me. I remember my ds being really whiny one day while my sister was visiting. She said "gosh, when my kids sounded like that, it always meant they were getting sick." Sure enough, the next day, he was sick. I can't tell you the number of times I've wanted to kick myself for losing my temper with my whiny/uncooperative children one day, only to have them come down sick the next.

That being said, I'm on the 'stricter' end of GD. I've toyed with consentual living approaches and decided they do not work for me. I am too spirited. I read the spirited child books, and found that the only really spirited one in the family is: ME!

So, for physical acting out, we do time outs. That includes me if I lose my temper and strike out.







: It's not a 'x minutes on the timer' kind of time out, but a 'stay here until you're calm and I too have calmed down'

If my dd is whining (she's 3, she's in a whiny stage) and none of my suggestions are helping, I ask her to go to her room.

I will gently help my children comply with my requests. If I've asked dd to put her socks in the laundry bin and she's lying on the floor saying "I'm a puppy. I don't have to clean up." I will take the socks, put them in her hand, walk her over to the laundry bin and say "it's time to clean up. I need you to help."

I will do logical consequences in addition to natural ones. If ds doesn't want to help clean up, I will tell him that if I have to spend my energy and time cleaning up for him, then I will not have time/energy to read stories later. If dd refuses to go potty before lying down on our bed to take a nap, I will ask her to move because I don't want pee on my bed. If kids are repeatedly misusing a toy in a way that could be harmful to them or the house, the toy goes away.

I guess my point is that it does work, and that there is more than one way to implement it. I spend a lot of time explaining and discussing things with my kids. But there are times when it is my way. Period. Because I can't stand to do it any other way. And if that's the reason, it's what I say.


----------



## Tishie (Aug 16, 2005)

Simply removing spanking doesn't make discipline gentle in nature.


----------



## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Your kids are very little still, Shawna. Of _course_ you are tired! Anyone would be tired! Caring for small children is a lot of work no matter how you cut it. Maybe you don't remember giving your parents a hard time, but I imagine that their perspective might be just a little different.







(And of course, a child's temperment makes such a big difference. My brother spoke to my parents in ways that I'd never have dreamed of. Ironically, they were a lot tougher on him discipline-wise, then the were on me.)

I find myself wondering what your definition of GD is?? Exactly what is on the table as "options" for you? What, exactly, are the "non-GD" techniques that you think might make a difference for you?

I gotta tell you that some of the things you have "tried" already are not within the spectrum of legitimate options on _my personal_ scope of GD options. That does NOT mean that I judge you for using them -- if you are not hitting your kids, then I'm proud of you!!







But I'm just saying, that I have no expectation that revoking privlages or issuing time-outs would make any difference to my kids either. No -- for me, GD is a total paradigm shift. A totally different way of framing behavior.

So it makes me really wonder -- what option are you holding back? What do you think might make the difference? Is it just spanking? Is that really even on the table for you? Because honestly, I have trouble picturing it. As long as you've been posting here, and as hard as you've worked to learn new ways -- I can't really picture you deciding that you want to spank your kids.

I wonder if you are stretched thin, tired, and overworked. I wonder if you need a break. ((((Hugs.)))) I've been there, mama, and I wish I could come spell you for a bit.

And yeah -- don't forget that there are lots of things that influence a child's behavior, including stress, inconsistancy, and big changes. Kids pick up on the slightest moods and shifts, and it all comes out in their behavior.


----------



## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

: to thismama, LynnS6, Deva33mommy, and mamaduck....as usual. A few of my favorite parenting "soulmates" on the stricter end of the GD spectrum (maya44, where are you to round out the bunch???







).

OP, a big







for you - I don't know a lot of your backstory, but from what I've read here it seems you have a lot on your plate. GD does not equal pushover. I don't have anything else to add that the wise mamas above haven't already said, just wanted to lend my support and hope that you find some answers and help here!


----------



## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

And not punishing does not equal pushover.







:


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
And not punishing does not equal pushover.







:

Very true. But having out of control kids who physically assault you and are just generally not fun to be around and feeling powerless to change that does IMO = pushover. Kwim?


----------



## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Punishment often makes this behavior worse in the long run. So addressing it another way is not "crossing you fingers" or "being a pushover."

One has not a thing in the world to do with the other.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I'm not advocating punishment. Although definitions here can be so varied and widely encompassing that I'm sure that by some standards I use it.

I'm just advocating not letting our children run us and assault us. That can be achieved gently and respectfully. IMO. I don't think my kiddo is damaged for life coz she is not permitted to hit and kick me.


----------



## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

The question is what you do when you "don't permit" it. I get in front of it, talk about it, express my feelings about it. I have age-appropriate expectations. I'm not a pushover.

I also don't take it personally when I can help it. Look for my own triggers. Seek to change the environment when it doesn't work. Focus on the relationship. Look for the unmet need. Engage my kids and seek to understand them.

It's not a question of permitting or not permitting. It's a question of choosing how to respond so harmony is re-established and alll members of the family are cared for and honored.


----------



## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

ITA with thismama. And mamaduck, but that's no surprise.









I don't punish but I have very firm boundaries surrounding how I expect to be treated and I make them clear. In order for him to respect my boundaries, I have to respect his boundaries. It's a two-way street. I also have to make sure that his environment enables him to be respectful. He is, after all, still a small child with comparatively little impulse control. He has a lot more when he's well-rested, fed, cared for, has adequate playtime, and his environment is as stress-free as possible. Our environment can never be ideal for a number of reasons, but we work with what we have and he adapts pretty well.

I'm a firm believer that GD works. I have a 6-year-old child who is adaptable and welcome in anyone's home. (I'm a single, working mom and other SAHMs routinely offer to have him over if we're ever in a bind because they love the way he plays with their kids.) That's proof enough for me, but the greater proof is when I get off of the GD track on occasion and his behavior tanks accordingly.

I'm sorry you're having such a rough time, Heavenly, and hope that you all can find equilibrium soon. I don't think you'll find it through punishment, though. Maybe in the very short-term, but not in the long-term.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Yeah, ITA with that, chfriend. I guess my issue is sometimes on here "all members of the family" translates into "kids" or "everyone except mama." Which is where the pushover stuff comes in.

I think it is a delicate dance to learn how to be respectful AND set boundaries. What I have found is once I figured that out things have been fabulous, like riding a bicycle, kwim?

I feel like GD stuff, specifically some of the messages I received here about GD, lead me to believe I needed to be a pushover or I would be damaging my child, and that derailed us for awhile. If you even look at the first several responses to this thread, people are saying basically oh well, just respect them. The fact the children are being out of control and assaultive wasn't really even addressed, kwim?

For me GD is about the balance. I think there is a middle ground to inhabit where mama can be respectful AND assertive. And that is what I have been seeking to maintain in my parenting relationship.

eta - oops, x-posted with you, Dragonfly.


----------



## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
And not punishing does not equal pushover.







:

Right - but being (rightfully) upset about being basically assaulted by your children ("don't listen to a word I say, they scream in my face, they smack me, they basically do whatever they want" from the OP) and feeling like there's nothing you can do about it short of spanking them isn't a good place to be, either.

I'm personally not big on punishment or contrived, unrelated consequences. In fact, I don't think I've ever used one, and I don't see it as a tool I'm going to use frequenty, if at all, with my kids. I do, however, set and enforce boundaries, both regarding my person and the property around us. And I can see how in certain situation a logical consequence can be a part of gentle, responsive parenting.


----------



## hippymomma69 (Feb 28, 2007)

Well I'm not super-experienced but I think if I were in the OP's situation I would step back and maybe try two things:

FIRST
- re-examine my own actions - in what way do I INVITE being treated with disrespect? In what way am I ENCOURAGING the situation to continue?

Since having kids, I've started doing lots of work on myself and realized how often I am contributing to the situations that make me unhappy. One example I can give - I often feel like I am the only one in the family who is every cleaning or taking care of things. But then I realized that my 3.5 year old DD is perfectly capable of carrying her dishes to the sink, helping me empty the dishwasher, etc. I just wasn't EXPECTING her to so I did everything. But changing my expectations has helped me realize that she was leaving a mess everywhere because that's what I expected. Hope that makes sense...but maybe after some thought you can see ways in which you are inviting (or condoning through your silence) your children to treat you with disrespect?

Second
Reconnect. I would take some time with each child to really try to reconnect with each child. See if you can get some alone time with each one where you can just focus on that child. I find it SO much easier to "discipline" my kids if I feel like we are really having a good connection. They WANT to please me so we can keep having a good connection. Even though I really dislike that book "Hold on to your kids" it is the best piece of advice he gives - connection is important.

I'm so sorry this is happening to you - but hopefully some outside perspectives will help....
peace,
robyn


----------



## sagira (Mar 8, 2003)

Quote:

For me GD is about the balance. I think there is a middle ground to inhabit where mama can be respectful AND assertive. And that is what I have been seeking to maintain in my parenting relationship.
I agree with thismama.

There is a balance, and teaching our children that we as mothers don't matter is a bad example and doesn't model how to respect yourself. In addition, it's not helpful for when they need to stand up for themselves when they're the ones being disrespected.

Children need to learn compassion and respect not only from receiving it, but also from modeling respect and compassion -- and that includes for yourself.


----------



## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Where have I suggested that a mother should not be assertive?


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
Where have I suggested that a mother should not be assertive?

I don't know that you have. I thought you were moving right to the idea of punishment, and how that is not good, when I and others spoke of not being pushovers. I could be mistaken about that though?


----------



## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I was responding to these posts:

"Yeah, ITA with that, chfriend. I guess my issue is sometimes on here "all members of the family" translates into "kids" or "everyone except mama." Which is where the pushover stuff comes in."

"Right - but being (rightfully) upset about being basically assaulted by your children ("don't listen to a word I say, they scream in my face, they smack me, they basically do whatever they want" from the OP) and feeling like there's nothing you can do about it short of spanking them isn't a good place to be, either"

which seem to be saying I'm saying that mothers shouldn't be assertive. I'm advocating an assertive response. Which is:

"I get in front of it, talk about it, express my feelings about it. I have age-appropriate expectations. I'm not a pushover.

I also don't take it personally when I can help it. Look for my own triggers. Seek to change the environment when it doesn't work. Focus on the relationship. Look for the unmet need. Engage my kids and seek to understand them.

It's not a question of permitting or not permitting. It's a question of choosing how to respond so harmony is re-established and alll members of the family are cared for and honored."

We don't go on blithely when someone in the family is losing it. We stop and attend to that person and the people around them.

When I felt that my house was out of control because of my older daughter illnesses (allergies), I talked a lot about what upset me, stressed me. What I needed. The ways I needed her support and help. And she talked to me about it.

She still hit me when she was exposed to an allergen. She screamed in frustration and pain.

I worked to solve the problem, not control her behavior.


----------



## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

There are no promises in parenting. Out of control kids are sometimes out of control for reasons that beyond the a parent's control. I'm not arguing that technique and philosophy don't matter, because they do.

The same techniques that work beautifully with one child will get you nowhere with another. And some kids are going to be difficult, and all you can hope to achieve is "less difficult." I don't know enough about Heavenly's situation to presume where her kids are at, but discipline and family dynamics are complicated. Personalities are complicated.

I think we need to be careful about rushing to judge another mama's parenting with so little information. What I mean to say is that we can't assume Heavenly is a pushover based on her descriptions of her children's behavior.


----------



## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

The same techniques that work beautifully with one child will get you nowhere with another. And some kids are going to be difficult, and all you can hope to achieve is "less difficult." I don't know enough about Heavenly's situation to presume where her kids are at, but discipline and family dynamics are complicated. Personalities are complicated.
Right. And some kids almost seem to NEED to do everything the hard way, and those behavior experiences often contribute to the building of a very special kind of character.


----------



## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dechen* 
There are no promises in parenting. Out of control kids are sometimes out of control for reasons that beyond the a parent's control. I'm not arguing that technique and philosophy don't matter, because they do.

The same techniques that work beautifully with one child will get you nowhere with another. And some kids are going to be difficult, and all you can hope to achieve is "less difficult." I don't know enough about Heavenly's situation to presume where her kids are at, but discipline and family dynamics are complicated. Personalities are complicated.

I think we need to be careful about rushing to judge another mama's parenting with so little information. What I mean to say is that we can't assume Heavenly is a pushover based on her descriptions of her children's behavior.

Beautifully said. I think it's easy to attribute parenting styles to positive outcomes when the child is pretty easy-going/flexible/etc. Some children go through extremely challenging stages or have very intense personalities.

Lately, I'm falling much more toward the nature end of the nature/nurture debate. Of course parenting plays a huge role, but I think it is very complicated...more than just applying GD principles and philosophies.


----------



## silver_bird123456 (Apr 30, 2007)

Hi I just wanted to post to put the issue in a slightly different way.

To some of us here smacking (and to some punishments) are imoral. It dosen't matter waht the outcome of doing it would be. It dosen't matter what other peoples children do. You don't aim to do something imoral.

Try this: Think of something you think is child abuse. Would you do it if it would mean your children respected you? Would you do it if someone else did it to their child and their child was well behaved?

Bascially what I'm saying is sit down and have a think about whether you think smacking (or yelling or whatever) is imoral. If you think it is stop considering it. Stop thinking about the gains it would bring. It's imoral so you wont to do it.

No smacking dosen't have to mean not being respected. The mothers here will give you plenty of advise and tools for GD. You need to decide whether to rule smacking out as an option, take it off the table, out of the tool box and start looking for tools to replace it.


----------



## MamaNosBest (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *silver_bird123456* 
No smacking dosen't have to mean not being respected. The mothers here will give you plenty of advise and tools for GD. You need to decide whether to rule smacking out as an option, take it off the table, out of the tool box and start looking for tools to replace it.

But no one HAS given the poor OP suggestions or tools or advice. Saying "I make sure my kids know it's unacceptable" is fine, but if they don't care (as in the OPs situation) about your approval, *what concrete and practical steps* do you take to keep from being abused by your own kids?


----------



## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swampangel* 
Beautifully said. I think it's easy to attribute parenting styles to positive outcomes when the child is pretty easy-going/flexible/etc. Some children go through extremely challenging stages or have very intense personalities.

That would be my child (the challenging, intense variety).









I think it's just as easy to be dismissive of parenting efforts/styles when there is a positive outcome by labeling the child easy-going and flexible.

Yes, outcomes may vary no matter what parents do. Children aren't robots. However, you pretty much always get out what you put in, to some degree, at least. Children, like any other human being on the planet, are much more likely to be respectful when they feel respected. (The exception would be where there is a serious underlying personality disorder.)

Please don't take my comments as a slam on the OP. She clearly loves and wants what's best for her children. If she didn't, she wouldn't be here asking questions. It doesn't help to be dismissive of what might be a key issue, though.


----------



## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaNosBest* 
But no one HAS given the poor OP suggestions or tools or advice. Saying "I make sure my kids know it's unacceptable" is fine, but if they don't care (as in the OPs situation) about your approval, *what concrete and practical steps* do you take to keep from being abused by your own kids?

Point taken. I'll dig in and write out what I would do. Take it or leave it.

Honestly, if it got to the point where my kids were constantly disrespecting me and things were getting completely out of hand, I'd sit down with them and have a meeting, and let them know that the way things are going weren't OK, and that everyone in the household deserved respect, including mommy. And that we were starting tomorrow with a clean slate. I'd briefly talk about respectful voices (and give examples of what it sounds like and does not sound like, maybe even make a short game of it), about not hitting each other, and about listening to each other. And that starting tomorrow, things were going to be different because mommy was going to expect the same respect from them that she gives them. And then, go into serious "get off your butt" (which will absolutely be exhausting with 3 children) mode - every time they disrespect you, calmly but seriously call them on it and request they rephrase politely, give them an example if you need to...and wait for them to rephrase. And remind them you expect them to be polite in the future. The older two are certainly old enough for that, I do that with my 3-yo. For the youngest, you model respect and give them the words you want them to use in situations. If after the fresh start they were hitting me, I'd try to stop them before they made contact and say, "I don't want you to hit me. I don't like being hit." in a serious but calm voice, and then move away from them. And do that every time. If things escalated (which they might in the beginning) and they were following me around trying to hit me, I'd just find a safe place for me or them, and calmly but seriously explain to them that while being mad/frustrated/sad/tired/hungry/whatever was absolutely fine, that hitting me was absolutely not and I would not allow it to continue. And give them alternatives to what they could do (stomp, scribble a picture, tear some paper, etc.). For the listening (or not listening, rather) - I'd try to make sure I knew I had their attention before I asked them to do something, by calling their names and making sure we were all looking at each other. Ask them once, and if they didn't do it, then go to them and ask again while helping them do it and explaining why, making sure I had eye contact while talking to them. All of this is done in a calm, but serious tone. Not mean, but not sugary sweet. Matter-of-fact, but serene..almost bored, but still focused on the point. Takes a little practice to get the tone down, but I've found it's a pretty good neutral tone to use when trying to minimize the shock reaction to things kids do to get a rise out of you.

I know it sounds exhausting. It is exhausting, with just one kid and doing it from the beginning as I have with my son. I can't imagine how exhausting it will be with 3 children at once. And I say "every time", and I mean really, as much as possible, every time. Of course no one is perfect and everyone slips up, but shooting for every time will make it happen more often than if you just try to do it when you can. AND, not beating yourself up about it when you slip up is essential too, because then you risk getting into the 'well, I screwed up, why bother?" loop which then will spiral downwards.

AND...making sure the way I talk to *them*, and to others I interact with is the way I want them to talk to me...which is sometimes the hardest part. I've said before, and it still rings true, that my son is the most painfully accurate mirror of when I slip up and am not respecting him or others around him, because he backslides and starts disrespecting me - that's MY cue to refocus and treat him the way I want him to treat me.

I've been doing "get off your butt" style parenting for a long while now, and laying out expectations consistently and calmly. I don't punish when the expectations aren't met, I simply remind and restate them, every time, so that they're always there, and they really do eventually sink in. Sometimes it feels like it's going in one ear and out the other, but it's really not - it just sometimes takes time to show. AND, enforcing the boundaries and limits I'm setting and explaining them is enough, and the point is being made such that I don't feel I need to add additional consequences on top of that. This way of living works really well for our family, and while my child is not a perfectly behaved and compliant child, that's not what I'm after anyway, so this works for us.

So there you go - that's what I would do. Maybe helpful, maybe not. But you are right that theoretical "I wouldn't allow that" isn't going to help much when she's looking for actual things she can do.

AND

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
Yes, outcomes may vary no matter what parents do. Children aren't robots. However, you pretty much always get out what you put in, to some degree, at least. Children, like any other human being on the planet, are much more likely to be respectful when they feel respected. (The exception would be where there is a serious underlying personality disorder.)









:


----------



## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

My advice:

Heavenly, what is your vision for how you family would look? What is one thing you can do today to take good care of yourself? What is one thing you can do today to care for each member of your family in their "love language."

What is one thing that each member of your family can do today to care for you in your "love language." Ask each of them for it.

Is there someone you trust that your kids are comfortable with that can watch them for a short period this week so you can go for a walk or get a cuppa by yourself? Can you take a journal with you and write about how you want your life and family to look? It can give you a target to shoot for and let you know which things are most making you feel unhappy.


----------



## Dr.Worm (Nov 20, 2001)

Honestly, my answer to this is that I have seen it work..I have to admit that when I first heard about GD I didn't know if I could handle it but I remembered being smacked and put-down as a kid. I am not saying I have been perfect and there have been times when I have yelled and almost resorted to mainstream thinking like a swat on the butt is ok...but when I started to think that way I would think back to when I was a kid, and I remembered the injustice and humilliation I felt, even at 6 or 7 years old...I knew I was being "bad" but my sense of fairness told me that even at that young age I was a human and didn't deserve to be treated less than one...like, why is it called "disrespectful" to talk back to your parents but they could talk to you like you have no feelings and it is called "discipline."

Anyway..when Julia was a baby and toddler I wasn't sure of the results...now that she is seven and almost out of first grade I see firsthand that gd works. When I have messed up and yelled she might listen, but out of fear, gd helps her get herself to "feel right" as Dr. Sears would say. I see the results when her teachers tell me she is a sweet kid and she tells me herself how she helped kids who got hurt at school and things like that...I am not saying I am the one that made her that way, I think she is just an incredible kid, and I'm not saying kids who are spanked or yelled at aren't capable of compassion, I just think it is easier on the kids when they grow up with gd and don't have to learn it when they have their own kid...like I did. Anyway...sorry to ramble...but, as you can see, I do believe gd works from experience.


----------



## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaNosBest* 
But no one HAS given the poor OP suggestions or tools or advice. Saying "I make sure my kids know it's unacceptable" is fine, but if they don't care (as in the OPs situation) about your approval, *what concrete and practical steps* do you take to keep from being abused by your own kids?

This doesn't count as practical advice? (Not to toot my own horn, but these are pretty concrete suggestions.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
So, for physical acting out, we do time outs. That includes me if I lose my temper and strike out.







: It's not a 'x minutes on the timer' kind of time out, but a 'stay here until you're calm and I too have calmed down'

If my dd is whining (she's 3, she's in a whiny stage) and none of my suggestions are helping, I ask her to go to her room.

I will gently help my children comply with my requests. If I've asked dd to put her socks in the laundry bin and she's lying on the floor saying "I'm a puppy. I don't have to clean up." I will take the socks, put them in her hand, walk her over to the laundry bin and say "it's time to clean up. I need you to help."

I will do logical consequences in addition to natural ones. If ds doesn't want to help clean up, I will tell him that if I have to spend my energy and time cleaning up for him, then I will not have time/energy to read stories later. If dd refuses to go potty before lying down on our bed to take a nap, I will ask her to move because I don't want pee on my bed. If kids are repeatedly misusing a toy in a way that could be harmful to them or the house, the toy goes away.

The only thing I would add:
For tone of voice, I ask my kids to say things politely or to rephrase. I model for them how I want them to phrase it if they can't get it.

And, when things are going badly, I spend 30 minutes on the floor with them. The "on the floor" is HUGE. Not just playing, but playing on the floor. Down at their level. Interacting physically and mentally. I did that yesterday, and bedtime went much more smoothly than it has for a while. OK, they were up just as long, but we were talking for 30 minutes rather than me grumping at them and them whining.

For books try:
Parenting with Purpose by Lynda Madison (author matters, there's another one that's lousy)
Positive Discipline by Jane Nelsen (she's got one for birth to 3, one for preschoolers, etc.)

Both have got very specific suggestions that are on the 'stricter' side of GD. I haven't read "The Secret of Parenting" but from when I've read here, it's probably on the same lines.

Another good book:
Playful Parenting by Larry Cohen


----------



## maryjane (Jul 13, 2004)

I just wanted to thank LynnS and the4ofus for their detailed responses... both of them really helped me. I'm definitely more comfortable on the "stricter side of GD", but what the4ofus wrote is helpful for me to see how it would work with a less strict approach. Thanks!


----------



## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maryjane* 
I just wanted to thank LynnS and the4ofus for their detailed responses... both of them really helped me. I'm definitely more comfortable on the "stricter side of GD", but what the4ofus wrote is helpful for me to see how it would work with a less strict approach. Thanks!

You're totally welcome. This kind of tickles me, as I consider myself one of the stricter moms on the board here - I've not considered myself "less strict" around here in a long time!!







:


----------



## maryjane (Jul 13, 2004)

Quote:

I've not considered myself "less strict" around here in a long time!!
Maybe I thought that b/c you don't talk about punishment at all?

In any case, thanks!


----------



## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

Do they disrespect you because you don't spank them, or do they disrespect you because of something else? Like for example just last night on the infamous Super Nanny, (I know, I know, we hate her) there was a girl who always hit and kicked her mother. Not for lack of punishment, but for other reasons like stress in the family and not enough attention (because there were 4 kids total and one was special needs and took up a LOT of the mother's time). Anyway my point is: Discipline wasn't the real issue, it was really all this other commotion going on in the home.
I want to agree with this.

Heavenly I know you have shared that your home situation is extremely stressful, with in laws who undermine constantly.

I think you have to take a hard look at what factors are affecting your kids' behavior. It's easy to blame gd, but I don't think any discipline will work in a high stress situation where the parent feels constantly on edge, stressed out, and undermined by senior adults in the home. It is just not possible for children to get a clear, consistent, strong message in that situation.

If you can't change the situation, then I would honestly just keep reminding yourself that this isn't the fault of the kids, or the failure of gd, but the result of factors beyond that.

An example would be that when ds is in the hospital, the environment is so stressful and chaotic to him, I have to lower my standards for *both* of us to a level where my focus is just to "stay connected and survive this experience". It's not fun to be at that level as a parent, but it would be far more stressful to go into such a space with unrealistic expectations.

Until you can get into a place where you feel less stressed and undermined, I would simply focus on letting go of what you cannot change right now, and stay connected with the kids. Get outside, let the kids pick something fun today, just chill out and go along for half an hour each day, without trying to fix or change anything. You can at least create little havens for each other to have moments of joy together, so that there are memories there which are positive. Unrealistic expectations of the kids will just make it impossible to relax and enjoy being together.

I truly hope you can find a way to nurture and reduce the stress on yourself


----------



## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maryjane* 
Maybe I thought that b/c you don't talk about punishment at all?

In any case, thanks!

Yeah, that's probably it. But I have pretty high expectations and standards....and I don't do a lot of negotiating if things don't get sorted out fairly quickly.

Anyway, I won't take it off topic any more.


----------



## silver_bird123456 (Apr 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaNosBest* 
But no one HAS given the poor OP suggestions or tools or advice. Saying "I make sure my kids know it's unacceptable" is fine, but if they don't care (as in the OPs situation) about your approval, *what concrete and practical steps* do you take to keep from being abused by your own kids?

Hi I didn't want to give practical advise as I don't have kids and so don't have any. I hoped that other mothers would be able to and they have.

The OP's orgninal question was:

*Please tell me why we think GD works?*

What I hoped to do was share my experince of deciding not to do thinks on moral ground to reframe the question. What I ment to say, which I may not have done so clearly is:

*Does it matter if GD works? Or does it matter more that I treat my children in the way which I believe is morally right?*

For example if I want my dh to change his behaviour so I get my way I could think of many ways in which to get him to that. Some of these may be manipulative or violent and some may not. I can then try to work out which of these will *"work"* (and get him to change so I get my way). On the other hand if I've decided that I want a fair and equal realtionship with dh in which I do not manipulate him, I don't consider the violent or manipulative options. What matters to me is not whether the options left *"work"* (and I get my way) but the relationship I have with dh and the way I behave.

Changing dh to dc in the above paragraph might give a deffintion of GD.

Is GD "working" producing children who behave like disaplined children?
Or is it behaving ourselves in the way we believe is right?

If the OP (or anyone else) does not find this way to re-frame the question helpful she is free to ignore it.


----------



## 3lilmonsters (Feb 24, 2007)

I've been meaning to get over here and respond, but I've been so busy. Now the thread is so long, I'm not going to bother trying to respond to the other posts, just the op.

The first thing that I would want to say is that so many age appropriate behaviors in our society (especially the more conservative mainstream areas of it) are looked down on as misbehavior. One thing that I've tried to remember is that I shouldn't expect my kids to behave any better than I myself behave...and once in a while I raise my voice, I interrupt or I roll my eyes. When adults do it it's normal. When kids do it they're being disrespectful brats. That's a little backwards to me.

The next thing I want to bring up is that when one of my kids offers to help make dinner or makes their bed unprompted I do not get the same urge to run to the computer, come on here and vent to you all about it that I do when one child knocks another in the head with a yard stick. Nor is it as automatic for me to want to lecture them "You're always picking up, and washing dishes, and offering to watch your brother outside, and feeding the cats..." as it is for me to want to say "you're always stomping your feet and being rude to your sister and leaving your toys all over the place...." You get the idea. There is more focus on the bad than there is on the good. I think that if people were just as likely to post about the good stuff as the bad, an entirely different picture would be shown.

As for concrete advice...well, I don't really know where I stand on the gd spectrum compared to others. I do have certain standards, though I do try to find a reasonable solution for everyone. I ask for my dcs input on everything from what to have for dinner to what they think about an apartment that we've looked at, though ultimately I do make the decision myself based on what I think is best for everyone (when appropriate). I have never had a problem with my kids being abusive towards me because it is not allowed. I do not hit them, their dad (when he lived with us it was more applicable) doesn't hit me, and they're not going to hit anyone either. What would you do if your dh hit you? Or your mil? Or your friend? I didn't have a script that I used but if they did hit (and each one did a couple of times when they were quite young) I responded with something like "Hey! That's not ok! You may not hit me." Sometimes it was a mood killer. If we were sitting on the couch reading a book and they hit, I might have told them I was done reading, that I was hurt and maybe I'd read to them later. Not because I was trying to punish, but because I wasn't feeling much like continuing if they were going to hit.

As for screaming at you...if my kids are disrespectful towards me in the way that they speak to me I express my displeasure at their tone and let them know I'll be happy to have this conversation when they can continue in a more appropriate tone. What would you do if your dh screamed at you? I'm sure you wouldn't spank him (and if you would, that's none of my business







:







) and you most likely wouldn't allow it either. I might say something like "excuse me? I am not ok with you yelling at me like that. I'd love to talk about this, but I'm going to need you to be a bit more respectful".

My kids have had times when they just haven't listened to anything I've said. How I handle it depends on how they're doing it. If they're just in a here-there-and-everywhere mood and just aren't focusing I'll sit patiently and tell them "I need your eyes and I need your ears" and only talk to them when their eyes are on me. I make sure I require interaction from them in the conversation by asking questions...basically demanding their attention in a non agressive way. If they're in an "I'm not going to listen to you!" mood, then I will admit (to myself) that I can't make them listen, but I can/will make sure that they are safe and everything and everyone is safe. Example - I cannot allow a child who is not going to listen to me to play outside. It's not safe for them. I cannot allow a child who is not listening to use the computer. I need to know that the computer will be safe if they use it. You get the picuture. Of course it depends too on what they're not listening about. If they're not listening about where they're allowed to be outside (like not in the road) that's not going to have an impact on computer usage. If they're not listening about not smacking the computer monitor, that doesn't necessarily mean that I can't allow them to play outside safely. Kwim?

It sounds to me like the point that you're at right now is going to take more than a little bit of tweaking to get away from. I know what it's like because when xdh and I separated last year, things got a little rough for us. It took some concious efforts on my part to get things back to normal. I'm a planner, so naturally I'd suggest you make a plan. Look at yourself primarily, because that's the only thing you can change (oh, if only I could remember that all the time!







: ). Look at your needs...primarily diet and sleep. Everything starts looking up when you get more than four hours of sleep a night and start living off of more than coffee and diet soda - not that I'd know anything about that







.

Next, I would go on the assumption that the better relationship I have with my kids, the more likely they are to behave as I would like them to if for no other reason that no one likes to hurt or disappoint someone they are close to. And I would figure out how I can have some real meaningful, relationship building time with them. Sometimes I set my boys up with a movie and do pedicures with dd. Or after the two little ones go to bed ds#1 and I sit at the table and have some decaf/tea/hot chocolate and some special cookies or something and just talk about what he wants to. I know that I personally find myself not really present with the kids sometimes because there is so much else on my plate. Classes, housework, bills, work sometimes, family responsibilities...when I can sit with them and give them my full attention for a half hour or so it helps alot during the really crazy times.

The next thing I would do is honestly look at my role in the scenarios that bother me. Is how I'm reacting (or maybe how I'm acting towards them in the first place?) somehow fueling the problem? How might I react differently to it to possibly evoke a different outcome?

Lastly, once I've made my plan, I would sit and talk to the kids. Probably individually. And probably be touching them in some way when I do it. Maybe cuddling in bed when you tuck them in, or sitting on the couch snuggling...just to make sure there's a connection there, yk? Then I'd tell them that I'd like to spend some time with them and ask them how they feel about __(insert your idea for time here)__? Then I'd get around to saying something in a...i don't know what kind of voice, but not angry...about how I really don't like it when they yell at me. It bothers me alot to be yelled at. How do they feel when someone yells at them? I'd probably say "I love talking to you, but I really need you to not yell at me anymore." Firmly, but gently...kwim?

Disciplining gently does not take away your right to tell anyone...even your child "I don't like that and I need you to stop" when it comes to your personal rights.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *silver_bird123456* 

*Does it matter if GD works? Or does it matter more that I treat my children in the way which I believe is morally right?*

Both. I think part of ethical parenting includes setting boundaries for our children, and not allowing them an imbalance of power in the family, or unacceptable behaviour that is clearly out of their control.

I think GD includes not being a pushover.


----------



## silver_bird123456 (Apr 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Both. I think part of ethical parenting includes setting boundaries for our children, and not allowing them an imbalance of power in the family, or unacceptable behaviour that is clearly out of their control.

I think GD includes not being a pushover.

I agree.


----------



## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I'm going to express that my feelings are hurt by mommy wars of stacking up who is "more strict" and continuing to describe other mothers as "pushovers."
And now I think I'll bow out because I'm moving and won't be able to check back.

Heavenly, I wish you the very best and hope that you can find a way to get the respect and peace that you deserve.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
I'm going to express that my feelings are hurt by mommy wars of stacking up who is "more strict" and continuing to describe other mothers as "pushovers."
And now I think I'll bow out because I'm moving and won't be able to check back.

I'm sorry your feelings are hurt. It has not been my intention to namecall other mothers on this thread, although I do confess that I know some GD identified mothers IRL who I would describe as pushovers, as being 'pushed over.' IMO their children's behaviour is out of control, resembling that described by the OP.

I want to talk about finding the balance within GD, not adopting overly harsh or disrespectful parenting approaches, and also not being ineffective and without a spine in our interactions with our children.

That is my intention, to discuss strategy, not to namecall or hurt feelings.


----------



## Thao (Nov 26, 2001)

GD does work. I don't think that every style of GD works for every kid, though. Consensual Living will not work with all kids, in my opinion. Time-outs will be a disaster with some kids. So much depends on personality.

But I can't imagine that there is any personality of kid that would do better being spanked or shamed.









My kid is not a model GD kid like some of the others brought up on this thread. We have our problems. There was a time when I thought that GD didn't work. Then I realized the problem was more that I had not changed my expectations of her as she got older. I think where some of us go wrong (or at least I did) is in making that transition from little kid where very little can be expected of them in terms of consideration and manners and responsibility, to bigger kid where it is vital to have those expectations of them or they will never learn. I thought my dd would just pick them up from my modeling but she did not, so now we are working harder (in a gentle way) to teach her. Basically doing what 4ofus and 3lilmonsters talks about, just really riding her but in a calm, matter-of-fact way.

That's the biggest challenge for me, to keep my voice calm instead of disgusted or sarcastic.

Heavenly, I don't know your situation but it sounds like it ain't good. If you have taken a good look at the way you parent and you know in your heart you are being firm and calm and demanding respect and your kids are still running roughshod over you, then I'd agree with the poster that it might be the situation more than the GD.


----------



## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

Quote:

Please tell me why we think GD works?

I hear all the time on this board about kids who are out of control.
I think its important to remember that if everything were going swimmingly and smoothly that no one would NEED to post in this forum, or at least not as frequently. So it seems logical that a vast number of the posts here are from those who need help and ideas.


----------



## flowmom (Feb 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I would NOT tolerate being hit or physically assaulted by my child. No way. We had a phase where she tried that, I let her know clearly that she had violated a boundary, basically that what she was doing was taboo according to mama. I just did that with my tone, with full expectation she would stop. Much like in a way, how I tell my dog to sit. I expect compliance with my tone.

That's great that that worked for your child, but many parents are dealing with children who are not going to respond to a firm tone of voice (at least not all the time). I know because I have one. I do not consider myself a pushover, but my child has a challenging temperament so I deal with challenging behaviours on a regular basis.

*Heavenly*, I feel for you







. I am dealing with a lot of counterwill and some aggression from ds these days. I am planning to re-view some sections of the *Power to Parent DVD* (Neufeld) again, and I'm also re-reading the book *Your Competent Child*. Neufeld emphasizes protecting the relationship, and he would not recommend witholding privileges or any kind of punishment. He gives pretty specific advice for dealing with aggression and counterwill, but it's not always easy to put into practice when one's resources are low. In Your Competent Child, the author talks about how children who seem uncooperative actually are cooperating by indirectly communicating the notOKness of the situation. If there are major household emotional undercurrents, that book would recommend making dealing with those the first priority. It definitely gave me food for thought in terms of acknowledging problems in my marriage and how they might be affecting ds







.

IMO, just deciding to not use physical punishment isn't enough, we have to replace punishing paradigms with ones that honour the parent-child hierarchy (Neufeld) yet protect the relationship and respect the child. And that often requires us to dig really deep.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ksenia* 
That's great that that worked for your child, but many parents are dealing with children who are not going to respond to a firm tone of voice (at least not all the time). I know because I have one. I do not consider myself a pushover, but my child has a challenging temperament so I deal with challenging behaviours on a regular basis.

Fair enough. I think there are ways beyond a firm tone to ensure that mama-assault does not happen, including physically removing the child from our bodies. I would pick up my child and put her on the sofa, if that did not work I would put her in her room until she could refrain from hitting/kicking/punching me.

I think sometimes a child has to test out what is behind the 'firm tone,' behind mama's boundary. I want my child to know that when I set a boundary, I mean it.

I recognize this is harder with more spirited children than others.


----------



## happeeevraftr (Mar 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thao* 
If you have taken a good look at the way you parent and you know in your heart you are being firm and calm and *demanding respect* and your kids are still running roughshod over you, then I'd agree with the poster that it might be the situation more than the GD.

I'd just like to jump in here and point out that "demanding" respect isn't really possible. If a child immediately stop hitting you, yelling at you, or whatever, simply because you've told them in a very firm (read: STERN), unyielding voice, that, "You may NOT do that," I'd say the child is reacting more out of fear (of losing your love/acceptance/approval, or of being banished from your presence, or of whatever other punishment they think you might come up with) than out of any kind of genuine respect they suddenly developed (or remembered they had) for you.

Respect comes when children feel respected and cared about. And sometimes it goes out the window when kids are little and frustrated and have very low impulse control.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Fair enough. I think there are ways beyond a firm tone to ensure that mama-assault does not happen, including physically removing the child from our bodies. I would pick up my child and put her on the sofa, if that did not work I would put her in her room until she could refrain from hitting/kicking/punching me.

I recognize this is harder with more spirited children than others.

Yeah, way harder, if not impossible.









I've heard sooo many moms (all sorts of moms, including ones who spank, ones who don't spank but do "minor" punishments like time-out, and parents like me who don't believe punishment is the answer period) talk about how impossible it is (or would be, in my case) to get their child to stay put anywhere. On the sofa? Not a chance? In their room? Only if you can lock it, which sounds completely horrible and scary to me, and even then, these types of children start throwing heavy/valuable objects at the door or otherwise being destructive, loud, and above all, angry. Which doesn't seem like a peaceful or effective way of teaching respect or problem solving or self control or . . . anything other than how to be mad, and how to show just how mad you are!

Quote:

I think sometimes a child has to test out what is behind the 'firm tone,' behind mama's boundary. I want my child to know that when I set a boundary, I mean it.
But how far are you willing to go to show this? Exactly *how much* is behind the firm tone? Being put on the sofa, being sent to her room, are both things that aren't terrible. (Although if they "work", I'd have to wonder exactly how terrible they were for my child.) But what if they don't work? Make the time longer? How much longer? What if you put him in there all day and he still resorted to hitting you the next time he got really frustrated?

This is why I am not a fan of ANY punishment. Because they inevitably won't always work, and then you have to think up harder and stronger punishments and when those don't work, that's when parents throw up their hands and say this "gentle" stuff just doesn't work! Some kids just don't respond to anything but spanking!

But please don't take any of this for meaning I think we should just sit there and let our kids "assault"* us. Just because a mother doesn't believe in punishing wrong behavior doesn't mean she doesn't have any values.

It occurs to me that those posters throwing the "pushover" line around believe that being on the "less strict" side of GD means we just allow our kids to do whatever they want because of some sort of laissez faire, moral relativist-type view that, "Well honey, if that's what you FEEL like doing, it must be right for you. I don't really like being hit, but I understand that it's what your body is telling you to do, and I wouldn't want to 'crush your spirit' by telling you not to do it."

That's not it at all. But my post is already entirely too long, and "what it is" has been written elsewhere much more clearly than I am capable of







so I won't drone on and on here









And chfriend, if you're still around, I am always uplifted by your posts, and I hope you come back.









*Which, seriously, when my 3 y.o. is wildly flailing her arms around, trying to get a reaction out of me by doing something she knows is "Not Allowed", I can hardly call that assault. She's 3. I'm like, 100 times stronger than she is. It's not hurting me, and even if it did, I have all the power in the world to hold her hand or otherwise keep from being hit.)


----------



## Thao (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:

I'd just like to jump in here and point out that "demanding" respect isn't really possible.
You're right, of course, poor wording on my part. What I mean by "demanding respect" is making it clear to the child that I (mommy) expect to be treated with respect in the same way I treat them with respect.

In my experience, some kids will pick up respectful behavior simply by modelling, whereas others need more active teaching. I used to ignore it when my kid talked disrespectfully to me, thinking as long as I treated her respectfully she'd figure it out. I consider that to have been a failure of "demanding" or expecting respect from her. I was teaching her that it was okay to be disrespectful to mommy.


----------



## 3lilmonsters (Feb 24, 2007)

I don't think anyone is talking about those on the less strict side of gd when they're using the word pushover. I'm sure there are some parents that idealize tcs or the other term (that escapes me now) that seems to discribe the same thing that _are_ pushovers. I know there are some parents that are gd but do timeouts that are pushovers, I know there are some spankers that are pushovers. I even know of a couple of abusive parents that are pushovers.

Being a pushover has nothing to do with your parenting philosophy. It has to do with forgoing any parenting philosophy, with no regard for anyone else's needs, in the interest of giving your child what they want when they want it...whether it's good for them or not. IMO, anyways.


----------



## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

When I think of nonGD here I don't think of resorting to spanking or shaming, I think of maybe punishment, time outs, nonlogical consequences, and maybe not always being calm when you're getting hit repeatedly, to use hitting as an example.

Well I share frustration. My son is 4 and seems to scream and hit if I set a limit. I always wonder if something is "wrong" but our life is not stressful (except for his tantrums) and he did not do this at preschool, or with grandma so much. I expect him to act out more at home, but it gets just intolerable sometimes. I can only conclude that he is spirited, or explosive, or whatever we want to call it. And in fact he's not like this all.the.time, which leads me to believe he's capable of more (meaning my fault, of course, yay). But it is difficult a lot. still.

Lord knows kids are different and not all are going to respond in the same way, though they all deserve respect and will likely respond more favorably (relatively speaking) to that. But I often feel like it "doesn't work" with my kid, like he needs limits that I would have thought were too strict a couple years ago, without considering certain kids or situations.

I think when people say it "doesn't work" they don't mean now. this minute. They mean that they've repeated the calm, firm "you may not hit me" expectation repeatedly and they are still getting hit, and hit, and hit. That does feel like it's not "working." I have slowly gotten stricter (i.e. no, actually, I won't be laid back and maybe let him do something I would have earlier b/c it's not a one-time thing and keeps recurring.) So I state my expectation, state that we'll have to finish the snack later if he throws it on the floor or whatever, second chance, then act on it, and all heck breaks loose. I'm just really tired of it. To face this repeatedly and then feel laden with guilt when you can no longer do so with angelic calm is just really hard.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happeeevraftr* 

Yeah, way harder, if not impossible.









Maybe. However I don't think that just because I have a dynamic with my child wherein she doesn't hit me, that means she is 'easy' and others are harder. I think some of it is the child, and some of it is the parent, and the dynamic between them.

So please do not dismiss me because I have a dynamic with my child wherein I do not get hit.

Quote:

I've heard sooo many moms (all sorts of moms, including ones who spank, ones who don't spank but do "minor" punishments like time-out, and parents like me who don't believe punishment is the answer period) talk about how impossible it is (or would be, in my case) to get their child to stay put anywhere. On the sofa? Not a chance? In their room? Only if you can lock it, which sounds completely horrible and scary to me, and even then, these types of children start throwing heavy/valuable objects at the door or otherwise being destructive, loud, and above all, angry. Which doesn't seem like a peaceful or effective way of teaching respect or problem solving or self control or . . . anything other than how to be mad, and how to show just how mad you are!
Um, then obviously the room thing is not working, IMO. Not every strategy works for every child.

Quote:

But how far are you willing to go to show this? Exactly *how much* is behind the firm tone? Being put on the sofa, being sent to her room, are both things that aren't terrible. (Although if they "work", I'd have to wonder exactly how terrible they were for my child.) But what if they don't work? Make the time longer? How much longer? What if you put him in there all day and he still resorted to hitting you the next time he got really frustrated?
You are absolutely right in saying that upping the anti in terms of punishment is not the answer. I personally have my own boundaries. I do the gentlest thing that stops the behaviour, or gets the behaviour I desire (shoes on, cooperation in grocery store).

I do not do anything that seems cruel, that frightens her or physically harms her. I do not do anything that makes the situation worse (as the child in the bedroom does in this example).

Honestly, if I had a child who was insisting on physically assaulting me, and putting him/her in her room did not halt it, but instead resulted in much drama and property destruction... well, I would be thinking we have a major problem on our hands. Because that is not normal behaviour. It is not the behaviour of a happy child in a balanced family situation, IMO. Something is off, and I would search deeply with my child for what that is.

And I would not be hit by my child. Both things.

Quote:

It occurs to me that those posters throwing the "pushover" line around believe that being on the "less strict" side of GD means we just allow our kids to do whatever they want because of some sort of laissez faire, moral relativist-type view that, "Well honey, if that's what you FEEL like doing, it must be right for you. I don't really like being hit, but I understand that it's what your body is telling you to do, and I wouldn't want to 'crush your spirit' by telling you not to do it."
I don't think that necessarily. I believe some less 'strict' GD mamas here have a balance that is entirely different from what I can achieve, and good for you. It works for you, mine works for me.

I have also seen, IRL, mamas who fear being assertive or setting boundaries with their children because of that "Well honey..." line you describe above. I think that is pushover parenting, and I have seen children who are wildly out of control as a result, while mama stands helpless. I think some of the less strict GD philosophy can and does translate into that. I don't think it has to but IME it can.

Quote:

*Which, seriously, when my 3 y.o. is wildly flailing her arms around, trying to get a reaction out of me by doing something she knows is "Not Allowed", I can hardly call that assault. She's 3. I'm like, 100 times stronger than she is. It's not hurting me, and even if it did, I have all the power in the world to hold her hand or otherwise keep from being hit.)
I have a 3.5 year old also. What you say is true. However it is not enough to me that I should just hold her hands back while she tries to hit me. She needs to know that mama is not to be hit, that mama deserves respect and that it is not okay to treat me that way. She is smart enough to understand that and I think I am doing no harm, and much much good, in communicating that to my child.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut* 
When I think of nonGD here I don't think of resorting to spanking or shaming, I think of maybe punishment, time outs, nonlogical consequences, and maybe not always being calm when you're getting hit repeatedly, to use hitting as an example.

These things count as GD according to the forum definitions here.









Quote:

I think when people say it "doesn't work" they don't mean now. this minute. They mean that they've repeated the calm, firm "you may not hit me" expectation repeatedly and they are still getting hit, and hit, and hit. That does feel like it's not "working."
Yes, ITA.

Quote:

I have slowly gotten stricter (i.e. no, actually, I won't be laid back and maybe let him do something I would have earlier b/c it's not a one-time thing and keeps recurring.) So I state my expectation, state that we'll have to finish the snack later if he throws it on the floor or whatever, second chance, then act on it, and all heck breaks loose. I'm just really tired of it. To face this repeatedly and then feel laden with guilt when you can no longer do so with angelic calm is just really hard.
I really like what you are saying about slowly getting stricter. I think that makes a lot of sense as a gentle parental response to a child not acknowledging a behaviour boundary. I'm sorry you are having a hard time right now, your son sounds challenging!

I get you on the 'laden with guilt' and angelic calm thing. I've felt the pressure for the angelic calm in GD circles a lot. This may be a separate topic, but I don't know that angelic calm is necessarily required or even a good thing. Like, isn't it good for children to see that mama has emotions in response to their behaviours? Kwim? I don't do angelic calm, although I also don't do crazy rage of course. I find the gentlest expression for my *true* emotion that I can, I say "I am angry right now because xyz" or whatever. That has really worked around here.


----------



## flowmom (Feb 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happeeevraftr* 
I've heard sooo many moms (all sorts of moms, including ones who spank, ones who don't spank but do "minor" punishments like time-out, and parents like me who don't believe punishment is the answer period) talk about how impossible it is (or would be, in my case) to get their child to stay put anywhere. On the sofa? Not a chance? In their room? Only if you can lock it, which sounds completely horrible and scary to me, and even then, these types of children start throwing heavy/valuable objects at the door or otherwise being destructive, loud, and above all, angry. Which doesn't seem like a peaceful or effective way of teaching respect or problem solving or self control or . . . anything other than how to be mad, and how to show just how mad you are!









:


----------



## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

i have a 3 year old too who has also hit me in the past...and IT HURTS BAD! i am stronger than my 3 year old by far and i'm so thankful, because it gave me the ability to turn him away from me to keep from getting hit directly in the face. thank God he outgrew that.

on another note, i don't understand because i read all of these threads and i feel like many parents are saying, our children are equals and should be treated as such. they deserve the right to make their own decisions, and should be given the same rights and respect & privileges as adults.....

but then when i read these other threads of children (including mine) having tantrums and fits....and well ...simply acting their age.....and they behave completely unacceptable at times, i then read that there should be no consequences because they are so young & they can't help behaving that way (even though they are 3 or 4 or 5). it seems like those two philosophies don't go hand in hand. if i punched someone at work, i would have consequences. and likewise, if my son punches a playmate, he should have consequences too. consequences should not involve punishment that demeans or physically hurts them, but it should teach and reinforce behavior that respects others....including mommy. i don't mean that to sound rude, so forgive me if thats offensive to anyone. i'm just baffled & wanted to voice it.


----------



## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

:


----------



## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I had to reread this thread because my mind is going, and apparently 2 months is too long to hold information in my brain anymore. Sigh.

A couple things strike me, in rereading.

1) Heavenly never posted again after her OP. Which is curious. I wonder how you are, Shawna? And what you think of all these replies?

2) That lots of mamas are suggesting that she hasn't been strict enough, which is weird to me -- because she specified in her OP that she has been leaning toward the "stricter" end of GD with time-outs, revoking privilages, etc. Indeed, based on what she posted, I can't think of anything else punative she could try without resorting to spanking. Which makes me think that this is not about being strict or not being strict, but something else entirely.

3) A few people mentioned the impact of stressful life circumstances, which I think is HUGELY important, and often overlooked in these conversations. A lot of things influence a child's behavior. Not just parenting.

Quote:

i feel like many parents are saying, our children are equals and should be treated as such. they deserve the right to make their own decisions, and should be given the same rights and respect & privileges as adults.....
I think you are oversimplifying. The dignity of children is largely ignroed -- everyday. All the time. Everywhere. A lack of respect for children is so pervasive that we sometimes don't recognize it. I consider the way I might react to an adult, and compare it to the way I am choosing to relate to my child -- because that line of consideration keeps me in check, and helps me to avoid taking my child's dignity for granted in a culture where sometimes its hard to keep in perspective. At the same time, I recognize that my children are inexperienced and vulnerable, and they need me to protect them for some types of decision making and some "rights" that they are not ready for.

Quote:

they behave completely unacceptable at times, i then read that there should be no consequences because they are so young & they can't help behaving that way (even though they are 3 or 4 or 5).
I don't think anyone has said there should be no consequences. Many of us would argue against arbitrary or unrelated consequences. Many of us would argue that in hindsight, it is obvious when children have been set up for situations and conflicts they don't have the resources to handle -- and so we argue for better planning next time. But most of us, I think, agree with you that the child needs to be removed from the situation and other parties need to be kept safe (which IS a consequence.)

It would suprise me if anyone here would state that they watch their child hit people, and they don't do anything about it.


----------

