# I. Hate. Bedtime. HATE IT!



## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

I am here for one thing only . . . SYMPATHY.

If you are in a space right now where you LOVE bedtime and appreciate holding and rocking and singing your child to sleep for hours on end because this is such a special time in your life, please don't tell me. I can't take it.

I try so hard to be a voice of reason and calm on these boards, but right now I just need to VENT. And vent hard.

My beautiful boy whom I adore is now 21 mos and bedtime is STILL, BY FAR, the hardest time of my day. I will spare you all the details, because most of you have BTDT, but suffice it so say that he still needs SO much help going to sleep and no matter WHAT we do (early bedtime, late bedtime, early rise, late rise, long nap, short nap, rough play b4 bed, quiet time b4 bed, strict routine, varying routine, bouncing, lying still -- do you get my drift here?!?!), it STILL almost always takes 45 minutes or more to get him to sleep.

And I find it to be tedious and BORING AS HELL!!!!

DH and I need a strategic plan for making this better, but GOOD GRIEF, when are we supposed to talk to each other? At 11 PM after ds has finally fallen asleep?!?!









Feel sorry for me. Tell me your night-life sux, too. Tell me that you, too, sometimes have fantasies of hunting down Dr. Sears and making him listen to your fingernails on a chalkboard for implying that babies fall asleep when they're tired IF you establish the perfect conditions.









But please don't ask me if I'm sure he's really tired, or I am going to drive my car off the nearest cliff.









Phew! Vent complete. Let's see if I have the guts to actually post it!


----------



## dentente (Aug 14, 2002)

Oh please. I HAVE BRUISES from putting her to sleep each night. She kicks and fusses and moans. This is recent but it's now coming to a hellish crescendo. She started preschool and sort of began potty training this week so on top of continuous cries of "Mine!" and "NO!" I have flying poops on the carpet, and I have this bedtime Sisyphian task of trying to get her to lie still. She is soooo tired and just so overwound. She had been pretty good up until now.

It sux. I can totally sympathize. It can't go on much longer. I too want to hang myself after struggling for an hour to get her down. "I need a juice." "I need back rub." "I need more big books." "No music, mama." "No jamas." "Where's daddy?" "It's wake up time now."

2 weeks ago this was a different child.

Denny


----------



## mamabutterfly (Jun 23, 2002)

About rough nights...




















































For you...
(((((((((((((Breathe)))))))))))))))))

































































For your little boy, that he may sleep tonight, early and soundly...









(ummm, this is the sleepy dust fairy tonight. No, not the other fairy - don't get nervous, E!)

Sorry it's been so hard. Glad you reached out to vent - we can all use a good rant sometimes. And we know you love your son, lol.


----------



## Curly Locks (Oct 21, 2002)

Please dont drive off a cliff!!! My son is about 2 1/2 months younger than yours and I have had weeks that seemed liked hell too at bedtime and night time. I liked your vent! I know that you'll get some support and good feedback.









I'll ask b/c I know someone else may...Approximately what time does he wake up in the morning

How long is his nap and around what time does he usually go down?

I realize that all kids are different and everyday is different for most kids too. It's that way at my house. And just when I think I have it figured out....you know the rest of that line. But I am wondering for my own sake here too. I've heard that the older they get the less sleep they may require.

Here's what ds's routine has been the last month or so...(some days are a little different but he ends up back on this routine usually the next day and he makes up for the lost sleep on another day w/ a longer nap or 12 hours at night)

~Falls asleep between 9pm and 10:30pm
~Awakens between 7:45am and 9:00am (the earlier he falls asleep the sooner he generally wakes up and he still wakes up at least two times a night)
~Naps start usually between 1:30pm and 3:00pm and he will generally sleep for 2 hours.

Your little guy must be really excited about life!!









H.


----------



## Curly Locks (Oct 21, 2002)

MB and I were posting at the same time...there's no way in [email protected]!$ I could ever top those emoticons! You must be the new emotican queen! You crack me up...







:LOL







:LOL







:LOL







:LOL







:LOL







:LOL







:LOL







:LOL







:LOL







:LOL







:LOL







:LOL

More hugs to El and to Denny (mommy with bruises).

































































Loving, patience vibes to the mamas and dadas. And some funny emoticons to think of when you may be about to freak at bedtime or anytime...





























































































I guess I wont be reading by book tonight.


----------



## Iguanavere (Nov 26, 2001)

Oh dear Breathe....I've had two glasses of wine and I just feel fine. Maybe that's what you need







I don't know how to emoticom, so forgive me, because I can't quite figure out how to wink at you in this land of e-symbols.!

When ds was 21 months, I was just where you were. And I was pregnant. We night-weaned and it was the path less taken and it was the difference (forgive me Mr. Frost - i'm nearly 3 sheets to the wind.)

I hated those nights so much. I felt like an AP failure. I hated motherhood. I wanted to CIO so badly because I was angry that couldn't have a little me time..

I could have waited to change the dynamic in our household and I am sure it would have resolved itself by the time DS was 3-4 years old - but let's face it - 3-4 years of banging you head against the wall can't be good.

I'm here for you! I hear you pain - you want to be there for you son - to help him wind down - but it seems to be backfiring and you just don't udnerstand. "how come I am doing all of the prefect AP stuff that I read about and my kid isn't blissfully falling asleep in my arms from the sheer pleasure of my breasts?"

I am going out on a limb here, please don't freak out. 21 months is a very aware baby - and they are starting to get that they are part of a larger unit called a family. I feel like it's good to let them know that their needs *are* going to get met, but that so *are* mom's and Dad's.

I better stop now and go sleep it off. Love to you all - my sweet MDC family!


----------



## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)

and here, I thought I was the only one....


----------



## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Last night:
DS fell asleep at 730p during our evening walk.
I knew I was in trouble.
He woke again at 10p, then again at 1230p then again at 230p then again at 430p.
I had to be up for work at 530p.
Anytime DH took him and tried to get him back to sleep he screamed at the top of his strong little lungs.

I had to nurse and nurse and nurse.. while he wriggled and kicked, sat up, flopped over on me, rolled around the bed.. turned sideways and then tried to get down off the bad.

I feel like sh**.
He either naps too late and won't sleep.. or doesn't nap at all and won't sleep because he is over-exhausted.

Sometimes it makes me question ap...
but I just could never never cio.

Oh, I'd sell my soul for 8 hours uninterrupted sleep.


----------



## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

I can give my full sympathy because it's happened to me too! I hated it!! We still struggle with bedtime but after reading Raising Your Spirited Child and my own creativity I was able to apply some principles to bedtime and it's much improved. Not sure if some of the ones here are old enough for some of my ideas but here they are-- figured you'd be willing to try anything. 

-- at 20 mos. or so we got dd her own futon on the floor next to, but slightly separated, from our bed. We started putting her only to sleep on it so at least we got a few hours of alone-time sleep before she woke up to join us at midnight. Now at 30 mos. she joins us at around 4-5 AM so it's getting better. The family bed just was not working for us past a certain age. Too much stress and sleep deprivation.

-- my dd's a big kicker. I was literally sore from her kicking me and really fed up with it. She has to kick something to go to sleep. First I had her kicking a pillow but she would wiggle those feet under the pillow to get at me. Then I started rubbing her legs and it relaxes her enough that she goes to sleep.

-- She has a CD that she's been using for about 3 mos. now. Gentle nature-based music. She turns it on herself and *needs* it to get to sleep. Sometimes she'll wake up at night and turn it on and go back to sleep. Dh and I are thrilled with this recent development!

-- We read her a couple books in bed before the lights go out. She puts the lights out. I think it's important for her to take part in her bedtime routine. Then in the dark I recount everything she did that day so she has things to think about as she falls asleep. I put it in the form of a story.

-- She knows that us sitting next to her while she goes to sleep is a priveledge. If she kicks us, we leave for a few minutes and she has to stay in her bed or she goes to time-out. We don't leave the room, we just move to our bed. She cries and tries harder not to kick. This was a tough thing to do but both dh and I were tired of getting kicked by a child who's old enough to control it at least most of the time. Esp. with me being pg now, and dh getting kicked one too many times in his groin area.

-- To combat the boredom I bought a walkman and got books on tape from the library. I actually started looking forward to bedtime so I could "read" my book in the dark! Later I got a booklight and now I read sometimes too. She knows not to touch the light or else I leave the bed.

-- If it's taking too long to get her to sleep dh and I will relieve each other after an hour. (Dh has been putting her to bed more than me lately to get her ready for the new baby).

-- We make sure she has eaten a good dinner and give her 1/2 glass of milk before bedtime to make sure she doesn't wake up hungry. She was waking up very hungry very early and we started making her eat more at dinner-- this was a power struggle, not her not being hungry-- and now after dinner she will even eat 1/2 slice of apple pie! (So I know we are not forcing her to eat more than she can) Then by bedtime she's full and happy and sleeps better.

-- We never let her nap after 2 PM, period. Sometimes we have a hellish afternoon and evening but it's worth it when she drops off to sleep at a decent hour. As far as naps go, I allow her to tell me when she wants one rather than trying to get her down at a certain time. I wait for the signals of her rubbing her eyes and looking dazed, and then lay down with her and let her go to sleep. If she doesn't go to sleep right away I give up on it. Yesterday she didn't get to sleep by 2 PM so she didn't get a nap yesterday at all and it was ugly, but she slept through the whole night 9 PM- 7 AM!

It still sometimes takes 2 hours to get her to sleep on the bad days, but the booklight and our rules really, really help us all to not feel resentful about it. Most of the time now it takes under 30 minutes.

Good luck you all! I feel your pain!!

Darshani


----------



## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Thanks for the support, Everyone. And thank you for not questioning me about why I'm trying to "force" my child to sleep when he's clearly not tired, etc, etc . . . I have gotten that response one too many times here at MDC! And after 21 months of trial and error (oh, so many errors!), I KNOW my son and I KNOW when he's tired and I KNOW when he's fighting sleep. Thank you for trusting me on this.

Yes, some days I would like to give the AP philosophy a swift kick in the proverbial pants. I do believe that we have created this little problem in our child -- and I do believe it's quite common among the AP set, as exemplified by your experiences (and the sheer volume of sleep-related threads on these hallowed boards!).

But in retrospect, I don't regret anything we've done along the way, bc it was all done out of love and empathy and gentleness. There is no point in ds's life that I can look to and say that we should have been tougher or more distant or less THERE for him.

That said, I do hope that I will be so much less anxious with future children, such that I might interpret their cues slightly differently and possibly find a way to help them sleep easier. (Like, I bet I'll tolerate a little more "fussing," while with ds I couldn't take one PEEP out of him without picking him up!) We shall see.

Regarding your replies . . .

Denny, I am so sorry for your bruises! You poor thing! It sounds like you are deep in the throes of toddler HELL. My wish for you is that it ends quickly and that maybe you won't have much memory of it. Kind of like some forgotten trauma.









Mamabutterfly, I'm on to you. You've been doing secret emoticon tutorials with Curly Locks, haven't you?!?! Even CL was impressed with your display . . . ("and the student shall teach the teacher")







Thanks for the love, Mama!

Curly, You are definitely on to something with asking about the wake-up times and naps. My little punkin is a night-owl and he comes by it naturally. His preference would be to sleep until 9:30 am, nap from 3-6, and then be up until 11 or 12. And who can blame him?! That sounds perfect to me, too! But the problem is (as someone later pointed out) that WE NEED SOME FRICKIN' TIME TO OURSELVES!!!







I mean, I give him everything I've got ALL DAY LONG, but I have got to have some R&R at the end of the day. Ok, ok, preaching to the choir, I know.

SO I'm working on waking him up early every day, getting him down for an earlier nap, and not letting him sleep more than 2 hours, but all it takes is one late-ish night (dinner w/the g'parents, dh working late, etc) and he *immediately* jumps back to his natural bio-clock.

(And don't worry, you'll always be the emoticon queen to me!!!)

Iguanavere, I laughed SO HARD at your post. Wanna know what I did after I posted this last night? Went downstairs and had TWO GLASSES OF WINE!







AND I ate potato chips! It was so fabulous. Yessirree Bob, there is nothing like eating and drinking your problems away!







:

And you're right about mom and dad's needs being important, and my "tyrant radar" is up . . . I'm watching him carefully for signs that he truly does expect us to jump when he says jump (and those signs are there, let me tell ya!) . . . but I also can see that we are not quite there yet with the bedtime. I feel responsible for getting him to this unable-to-put-himself-to-sleep place, so I feel like I need to stick it out until I've taught him some better skills.

But yes, where is this part in the AP manual?!?!?







:

Pumpkinseed, Thanks for chiming in! Misery does love company in this case, I'm afraid!

Asherah, I am SO sorry. I think you may have it worse than me, Sister. At least my child is sleeping at night (well, for longer stretches, anyway, and only for now, I'm sure!) Really and truly, I could not do this if I had to get up and go to a job in the morning. You are one tough cookie. And your ds is one LUCKY boy that you have toughed this out for him! Hang in there, Hon! I'll PM you if Sleep Fairy visits my house and bestows the magic answer upon me.

Speaking of which, has anyone else considered Baby Valium in a fit of desperation?!?!









It's so funny that we use only homeopathic rememdies, but there have been moments when I would have mainlined valium into one or both of us if I'd been able to!

Darshani, Thanks so much for all the suggestions. I smiled when I read them bc we have done so many of them. Altho for us, co-sleeping works quite well. It's just the beginning of the night that is making me BONKERS! I like the idea of having the chid turn out the light -- I think we'll start that tonight! And I jokingly said to dh last night that I need a walkman! I'll have to think about that one . . . I'm afraid it would just be one more thing for ds to perseverate on. ("M. see Mommy's headphones. M. see Mommy's headphones. M. see Mommy's headphones. M. see Mommy's headphones. M. see Mommy's headphones. M. see Mommy's headphones.") AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!









All this being said, I feel the need for a caveat, in case the AP police are watching: All of the above is said with MANY grains of salt and MUCH intended humor . . . I am head over heels in love with my child, LOVED rocking and nursing him to sleep for the first 16 months or so (and frankly, would do it until he was TWELVE if it worked!!!), and would NEVER hurt him or myself, with prescription drugs, or cliffs, or hammers to the head.

And I will admit that today, like yesterday, he fell asleep in the sling at naptime -- snuggled under my neck, stroking my boob (hey, it's his Lovie!), and all before the 2nd Bonnie Raitt song on the CD ended. SO it's not all awful at my house. Only after 8 PM.









You guys are awesome. Thanks!


----------



## momcat (Aug 9, 2002)

"M. see Mommy's headphones..." LOL! You are too funny, Breathe!

You know I feel your pain! Because I have to work, though, ds is on an earlier schedule for waking and sleeping than he'd prefer. When we went to San Francisco, he had an awful day with the flights, no naps, etc, so we just got him onto pacific time right away. Any chance of trying one hellish day with no (or little) napping, then trying to re-establish a bedtime and waking time? I don't know if it would work for your wild man, but I could have sworn it wouldn't have worked for W, either. Worked in reverse on the way home, too, btw. Still takes forever to get him to sleep, but at least it's at a reasonable hour - if he fights us, it's still only 9 or 9:30 when he's finally out.

And I'll 'fess up to a margarita last night...!
*clink!*


----------



## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Hey momcat, You know about the Commando-Day-of-No-Naps, too, huh?!? Yes, it works fabulously to get him to bed early and to re-establish a more sane schedule.

But then, my dear child, SOMEONE has to BE with him all day until he finally collapses from exhaustion. Is that SOMEONE going to be little 'ole ME?!?! Not today, Toots.

My plan is for dh to take a day off from work to do it. While I go to the pool.

He doesn't know about this plan yet. Would you be willing to email him and ask him for me? Pretty please?


----------



## momcat (Aug 9, 2002)

I have a better idea - hop on a plane and come visit us! Then, you have a crazy day that is, at least, filled with activity and you'll have someone to share that wine with by the time the day's over!


----------



## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

You're on. And how many guest rooms do you have? 'Cause I think I know a few other mamas who'd be there YESTERDAY if they could.

And not just for the alcohol.


----------



## Megs Mom (Mar 19, 2002)

Oh, I am so there... (drinking water)









My bedtime woes plummeted when I started reading good FICTION books with a night/book light (actually called a Book Wedge, it's awesome) and not worrying about how long I had to lie there...

Good luck and HUGS!


----------



## momcat (Aug 9, 2002)

Come on over, Analisa! Although it is in the 90's again today, and we have um... no real guest rooms... but hey! The kids don't sleep anyway, so we can have a big slumber party in the livingroom! Been thinking of you today, A - any news yet? We'll be waiting...


----------



## Moon (Nov 25, 2001)

Oh man, have I been where you are.









I'm so sorry it's so hard.

My sleeping breakthrough with Sophie came when I wasn't the one who put her to bed. The day my dog died, dp took her in, got her all happy and cozy, put her in her crib, and left her there, and came down twenty minutes later to see how I was doing. I assumed he'd put her down to bed like he'd seen me do. Wash, jammies, singing, cuddle, sleep, on my bed.

I didn't hear her so I didn't know any different.

I didn't realize until almost an hour later he'd left her in the cot, awake. She never made a sound.

If *I* do this, all







breaks loose. If he does it, she settles down in her cot like a little









She's easier than Maeve. When Maeve was little, in desperation one night I literally restrained her. She was so tired she was screaming. She was literally hitting herself, trying to open her little eye lids. I hated bed time with Maeve. H A T E D I T.

She was 4 before she would go to sleep without me wanting to bind and gag her and lock her in a closet.

Much sympathy and no answers.....


----------



## asherah (Nov 25, 2001)

Oh my Goddess nooo.
I don't know if I can do this for another three years.


----------



## Gemini (Apr 9, 2003)

My dd that is 3 1/2 now was this same way. I absolutely couldn't take it anymore, and me and my hubby were exhasted. Honestly, I have NO idea how our baby was concieved.







:

Our dd was a preemie and was sooo high mantainance. She slept in short little spurts FOREVER it felt like. Then once she started sleeping through the night the night time routine to GET her to sleep was 1-2 hours sometimes!

She still won't fall asleep in her bed by herself, but we're not pulling teeth to get her to sleep now, and the baby is still nursing so that makes it easy. When she nurses after 9:30ish, she'll go to sleep for sure.

I feel your pain Breathe...hope you don't blow a gasket before your kid gets out of this frustrating phase...

I just hope once the baby is done nursing, we won't be going through this all over again...*shutters at the thought*


----------



## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

In the 90's in WISCONSIN?!?! What the . . ?

On a serious note, Analisa and Darshani: Does the booklight not distrub them as they're trying to fall asleep? I've always assumed that the reason I could put ds on the bed awake at night but not for naps, was bc it was dark. (During the day he thinks it time for "jumpin' on da bed!" so I have to sling him.)

If it's not too much light, maybe I'll give that a try.

And yes, Analisa, PM us or something -- We need to know how many lima beans are in there!!! (You didn't know you had so many "partners" sharing in your pregnancy, did you?!?)


----------



## Gemini (Apr 9, 2003)

T (holy cow, there was like 4 post written while I was writing!)


----------



## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Moon, how do I get one of those sleeping babies, next time around?!?! Please let me know, 'cause I think asherah wants one, too!

That's what dh and I will toast to tonight, at midnight, after ds is snoozing:

"Here's to the next one being a Sleeper!"

(not that we're even TTC, but I'm thinkin' we may need to toast to that MANY times between now and then!)

LizaJane'sMom, you may as well start toasting to that, too . . . Maybe it's not too late for your little one!

Oy. We're getting PUNCHY around here!


----------



## Gemini (Apr 9, 2003)




----------



## Moon (Nov 25, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Breathe_
*Moon, how do I get one of those sleeping babies, next time around?!?! Please let me know, 'cause I think asherah wants one, too!

*
I honestly think g*d or fate or kismet, pick one, took pity on me.

Honestly, if I'd gotten another one like Maeve, I would have ......well, I don't know. It was that bad. There are 9 years between them, what does that tell you? (j/k-circumstances, not planning)

And they are parented almost exactly the same, I was _slightly_ more AP with Maeve, and Sophie has an older sister and didn't nurse as long...that's it, those are the differences............so it's NOT YOU.


----------



## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

I bought a booklike from Barnes and Noble that clips onto the back of the book, and you can focus the light where you want it. I sit on dd's bed with my knees up (well at least until my belly gets bigger! lol!) and rest the book on it, partially closed. The light doesn't shing on dd's face or anywhere near her. And like I said she knows not to touch it. It took some working with her but *my* needs are important too. I knew it was not violating her trust in any way to threaten a time out if she kept touching my book light. She needs to be taught boundaries sometimes.

Darshani


----------



## sozobe (Aug 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Breathe_
*Curly, You are definitely on to something with asking about the wake-up times and naps. My little punkin is a night-owl and he comes by it naturally. His preference would be to sleep until 9:30 am, nap from 3-6, and then be up until 11 or 12. And who can blame him?! That sounds perfect to me, too! But the problem is (as someone later pointed out) that WE NEED SOME FRICKIN' TIME TO OURSELVES!!!







I mean, I give him everything I've got ALL DAY LONG, but I have got to have some R&R at the end of the day. Ok, ok, preaching to the choir, I know.*
I am a very very lucky person [don't hit me] and my hubby can usually choose when he goes to work so I don't know if this would be an option, BUT [cower]:

The schedule you describe is basically exactly the schedule my dd is on, although she takes shorter naps (~2 hrs) and sometimes doesn't nap at all (earlier bedtime... ahhh.) She usually either sleeps 11 hrs overnight or 9 hrs overnight + 2 hr nap. She and I go to sleep at the same time. Pretty painless. Then I wake up a couple of hours BEFORE her, and that's when I get my R&R time and time with hubby -- in the _morning_. It works pretty well for me -- R& R to start the day, and dh helps out at night while I have some time to myself (online et al.)

Just puttin' that out there since I've been surprised how often people assume it's necessary for babies and toddlers to go to sleep early. My dd seems totally happy with this schedule. We'll have to adjust it for school, but we already have and can just continue -- she was going to bed 12-1 (we're night owls, too) and is now more like 10:30-11.


----------



## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

sozobe, I think that's a fabulous suggestion (no need to cower . . . I was just trying to scare away the polly-annas with my original grumpy post!).







I think it's important to remember that it's the TOTAL amount of sleep that counts, not neccessarily the exact timing of it. Good for you for being so flexible and creative!

Unfortunately for me, dh goes to work very early (he's gone by 7 am), so I could potentially get up before ds and have alone time, but I would miss out on dh time at night. ('Aint no WAY I'm getting up at the crack of dawn to be with him . . . at least not until we're sleeping thru the nite!) After ds goes to bed is the only time dh and I get during the week, and we've learned (the hard way) that it is *very* important to our relationship and overall happiness.

But I will keep this in mind as another strategy if we truly get stretched and need to change something.

And thanks Moon, for the reassurance . . . I've always hoped it isn't just me, but we won't know until dc #2 comes along . . . and given the state of things around here, I'm guessin' that's still a ways off!


----------



## Megs Mom (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Breathe_
*On a serious note, Analisa and Darshani: Does the booklight not distrub them as they're trying to fall asleep? I've always assumed that the reason I could put ds on the bed awake at night but not for naps, was bc it was dark. (During the day he thinks it time for "jumpin' on da bed!" so I have to sling him.)

And yes, Analisa, PM us or something -- We need to know how many lima beans are in there!!! (You didn't know you had so many "partners" sharing in your pregnancy, did you?!?)*
See my sig.









The Light Wedge only lights the book page and very little else. Sometimes she expresses mild interest in it but gets over it quickly.


----------



## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

. . . but ds went down in about 7 min tonight.









Here's what we did, but I would NEVER be so arrogant to assume that it had ANYTHING to do with our stellar parenting, or even that it will EVER work again!

Last night he didn't go down until 10:30 (hence the ranting and raving).

But this a.m., he woke up at 7:30, even tho he usually sleeps for 11 hours. I was WIPED, but knew it *might* be the change we needed.

I was a VERY good girl and cut all activities short so he was down for a nap at 12:30. He slept until 3:15, at which point I woke him up. I knew I was violating the long nap rule, but I figured he was making up for waking up early, so in reality it was only a 1 hr nap. And he was up by 3:30, where yesterday we wasn't up until 5:30.

Then we were very disciplined again tonite and left an outdoor concert after only an hour, so that we were home by 7:15.

Bath at 8:00 (he had a very long poop in between or we would have been in there earlier -- sorry, but I know *some* of you are interested in these kinds of details)

Jammies and nitetime dipe on by 8:20

Walk around neighborhood, home by 8:45

Sweet sleepy talk on the way into the house ("goodnight trees, goodnight stairs, goodnight M's bathtub, etc etc")

Nursed for 5 min

Quick and silent handoff to dh at 8:50

Ds put his head right down on dh's shoulder, and then next thing I knew, dh emerged from the room victorious at 9:00!!!!!!

Thank you, Goddess, Universe, Creator, or whomever is watching over me tonight!

Note that the nitetime routine was *exactly* what we always do, but somehow we managed to time things perfectly so he was really tired, but not yet manic.

Good Gravy. I have two graduate degrees and this is BY FAR the hardest thing I have EVER done!

Hope you all have some luck tonite (or in the very near future) too! I'm sending out soporific vibes to you all! (Sorry, it's one of my favorite Beatrix Potter words!)


----------



## Curly Locks (Oct 21, 2002)

Wohoo!







Funny how that out door stuff can really wear them out. We played in the rain today and collected rain water and he helped me do laundry and straighten up the house. He was begging to nurse by 8:30 and asleep by 8:45! We usually take a walk too but it was raining hard.

Have a great night all! BTW, I like to lay in bed and read next to ds (with the light on) after he is asleep. I cant even imagine what he will be like in a few months. I am keeping my fingers crossed though!


----------



## girrllie (Nov 20, 2001)

OMG I'm so glad I'm not the only one. I HATE bedtime too - HATE it HATE it! And DH always makes me feel so guilty about it. But by the end of the day, I'm wiped and don't want to nurse anymore and don't want to cuddle and hold and rock forever, play anymore, etc.

And I've had the same thoughts - that I did all this AP stuff and where the h*ll is my easy AP child? And also that I've created this situation with all the AP stuff so why am I so unhappy with it? Thank you, thank you for your post!!!!

Good suggestions from people too - this has lately become such a nightmare at my house and I've been looking for suggestions.


----------



## Threefold (Nov 27, 2001)

chiming in late to say

Thank You!!!!!!

I though I was the ONLY Ap mama who dreaded bedtime. I so can't "be in the moment" when the moment is lasting 2 hours!


----------



## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

i gave up a long time ago. it wasn't worth it to my boobs. as an infant and young toddler she'd never let go. i had to pry her off every time. would nurse while wide awake for an hour or more at a time if i let her. it's only recently (now almost 2.5) that _occasionally_ she'll pop off of her own volition. so, that's the long lead up to...if she isn't out in 20 minutes daddy gets her or we get up to play. she's also a night owl, so 10:30 sounds heavenly to me, breathe. she does _usually_ go down pretty easily within the 20 minutes, though. it's also only recently that she's given us a couple of evenings to ourselves if she skips her nap. if she naps she's up til we are (or later







: ). 12midnight or 1am isn't at all uncommon. if it's 11pm i usually feel like we're doing well. she gets a lot more daddy time than she would if she went down at 8pm, though. today, though, she woke up early for her at 8am (early night last night after no nap) and stayed up til 9:30 with no nap. i thought for sure she'd crash in the carseat this afternoon while we were out driving around, but nooooo. she's just not interested in sleep sometimes. at night the other night she said "no sleep" or something like that. i try to keep in mind what i read in "our babies, ourselves" about the US being a somewhat sleep obsessed parenting culture when it gets like this. the worst, though, is when she takes a _*nap*_ at 7:30pm and then wakes up at 10:30 or 11 ready to play.







ugh. had one of those several weeks ago and we were up til 3am. mama was really about to fall out then.

sounds like you had a great night tonight. here's to many more!


----------



## dentente (Aug 14, 2002)

Mine was gone by 8:54. The secret? Took her swimming after dinner. (an hour after, don't worry). It was still hot here so we all went (along with Bobby). Wore the little mite out. She and Bobby are snoring away.

Ahh...the agony. The ecstasy.

Denny


----------



## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

that's too funny, denny. i just read your barbie/bobby post. i'm dreading the day dd wants one, but we'll deal when it comes. she's obsessed with seals and sea lions now. has about 7 i think. has been this way for 6 months or more. it's pretty cute, but (to make this somewhat more on topic) they don't usually go to bed with her/us. occasionally if she's really putting up a fuss, "you don't wanna read a 'tory! you don't wanna go to bedroom," we'll bring the moment's favored toy with us to ease the transition. i don't like to roll over on seals and duplos, though, so i don't encourage that practice.

congrats on 8:54!


----------



## Curious (Jan 4, 2002)

Wanted to add my vote for considering bedtime the most stressful time of my day. It seems like I go through all the challenges of the day, knowing the big one lies ahead, for when I'm least up for it.

We have something that works pretty well, but it's a huge long ritual.


----------



## EllasMama (Nov 20, 2001)

Oh yes, I am right there in the "sleepytime is h-ll" club. Although since DD turned 2 nighttime has been gradually easier. But naptime...I don't even want to talk about it today. Bad week. I at least FINALLY got DD to nap somewhere besides the car, so that is good. I literally drove her around till she fell asleep for over a year. A YEAR! I hated it, put tons of miles on the car, but was smart enough to know that a nap at any cost was better than no nap at all! But it takes her like 45 minutes or an hour to settle in for her nap lately, although she's plenty tired. And I'm so not in the mood. We need breaks at least as much as the kiddos do, if not more!

We did nightweaned gradually betwen 19-24 months, which helped tremendously with at least getting it where DH can put DD to bed when he is home. Just taking some of the burden off me helped.

I can't tell you how many times I've prayed to the heavens to please, please, please give me a willing sleeper for my next child, too! (If I ever regain the strength and sanity to have another child, that is!) I actually avoided MDC for a long time recently b/c I got so freakin' tired of all the useless advice from people who seem to think I maybe hadn't "figured out" how to get my child to sleep. Like those of us with sleepfighters have not literally tried it ALL and then some! Grrrrrr. I know people mean well and just do NOT get what it is like, but all I can say is an uncharitable...Must be nice to have a child who willingly sleeps, so you can pat yourself on the back and think you had something to do with it!







:

Carol


----------



## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Denny, You are my new best friend. I knew that dh wouldn't be home in time for bedtime tonight, so I took ds swimming. I just had a feeling that would work for us -- the best sleep he's ever had in his life was around his 1st birthday when we went to the beach for a week . . . He slept from 9 pm to 6 am EVERY NIGHT without waking! And tonight he was out in 15 minutes!!! (We went from 6-7, after dinner, and came right home and got in the tub. He was alseep by 9. PHEW!) Thank you, thank you, thank you for reminding me of this HEAVENLY trick!!!









girrllie, I have a friend (who's probably reading this very thread!) who wants to write a book with the TRUTH about AP . . . that it's INTENSE and hard as all get-out some of the time, but worth it, of course. Sounds like you're in for a chapter, huh? Maybe the_dalai_mama and Curious would like to collaborate as well?









And beanma, you're a special mama . . . I happen to know you've got a bun in the oven and you're STILL willing and able to stay up with your little marine biologist 'till the wee hours!!! I don't know how you do it.

I will say that I suspect the reason we are so sleep-obsessed in this culture is bc we work all the damn time -- Right now everyone in Europe is preparing for 6 weeks of vacation. Today millions of Latinos (in *other* countries) took a ciesta. But we work and work and work until we can't remember why we're working, and we are some sleep-deprived folks. Truly, if I couldn't sleep until my punkin woke up each day (which is thankfully at a very humane hour and NEVER the crack of dawn), AND take naps when I needed to, I couldn't do this AP stuff. You WOHM's who AP are a wonderful, self-sacrificing mystery to me!

So you see, all that whining DID help me, 'cause I found out that I'm not alone in this AND I got some good ideas! But isn't it interesting that sometimes, *sometimes*, when you feel you can't go on any longer, something shifts and you don't have to? Not that my bedtime ordeals are over -- but two good nites in a row sounds like a winning streak to me!!!!

Hoping your wee ones are asleep before the wee hours,
El


----------



## Curly Locks (Oct 21, 2002)

Polyanna #1 here...just popping in to agree that the sleep times dont matter just the quality and the quantity. My ds generally does 11 hours a night too! And when he wakes up at 7:00 vs 8:00 or 9am and got only 10 or so hours he goes down at noon or sooner too.

BTW, El, the poop reference killed me! I'm the type of mom that appreciates those details. They really matter.
































Happy days are here again for me too. Ds went down in 15 minutes.







Good luck to all!


----------



## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

CL, I was *actually* thinking of you when I included the poop reference -- KNEW you would appreciate that!









EllasMama, LOVE your dry wit. You make me laugh! If anybody gives you that kind of "helpful advice" again, I got your back, Girlfriend!


----------



## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

breathe, i'm just lazy. i can't fight the sleep-fighter, plus i think she got her daddy's night owl genes. i'd druther play (or goof around on the computer) than try to get a girl to go to sleep when she won't do it. just lazy...









p.s. i appreciated the poopage info, too. these things do take time...


----------



## Threefold (Nov 27, 2001)

Right there with the poop being a very important detail relating to sleep!
ds was asleep by 9 tonight, but it took 1 1/2 hours. . .I was Queen AP for the first hour 15 minutes. It is HOT here and was 87 F in the bedroom. I was standing and swaying with him in fornt of the fan and he fell asleep several times only to wake when we tried to lay on the bed. The last time he woke and said sweetly, "mama read a book" I growled, "no go to sleep"







BUT HE DID!!
Breathe~ I'm so in on that book.







I do WOTH (thankfully part time since he was 5 months).. I did it full time for two months and I thought I die from missing him and lack of sleep. My heart is always wth ds, and my mantra is, "this will be over much sooner than I am ready"


----------



## Curious (Jan 4, 2002)

I did not get to say above that I did a lot of work on my attitude. I was way too wound up, and as Dh and I prepared to TTC, I knew that my attitude about bedtime could become a deal breaker I really didn't want to impose.

I tell myself she will fall asleep eventually...she will probably stay asleep long enough for me to get a good amount of rest...I am thankful she sleeps late in the morning and my lifestyle pretty much allows me to sleep as long as she does...I am thrilled she nurses for quite awhile before she's ready to get up.

I had a lot of anxiety about bedtime, and I've managed to let go of a lot of it. It helps to remind myself that there will be a day when I miss the closeness of this bedtime ritual.

It's not as out of control as it could be, and that may be because as AP as I am, I can also be pretty rigid when I have to be. If there really was a book, I would think more about that balance between AP and teaching your children they are part of a family (and more) and things must work most of the time for most of the people. I love focusing on Dd but it's got to be in the context of our life.

I have had back pain for quite awhile, which put a limit on how much walking/bouncing, etc., got done. So Dd is dependent on nursing to sleep but I don't have to do anything strenuous. Once we go to bed, we stay in bed, unless it's to go to the rocking chair. If I can't be lying in bed, at least I get to sit. Before she falls asleep, she is allowed two trips to the kitchen for a glass of water. Why two? Because she can count to two and that's all the bouncing up and down from bed my tired back can stand. I don't keep the water in the bedroom because it will be a source of fascination. I keep the fascination factor down by being quiet and "asleep" when it's time for Dd to sleep. We have had much the same sleep routine since she was tiny. She knows it well.

I really enjoy her lullabye CD (celtic), and the time to meditate on my day. It's a chance to "savor," the lack of which has been discussed on another thread. It's my only chance to Do Nothing.


----------



## elismom (Dec 3, 2001)

Breathe--I can totally commiserate (maybe we should get together and commiserate in person?)!!! Except in our house it takes 1 hour to 1.5 hours most nights, so he's down about 10:00. Together time for the 2 of us???? What the hell is that? If we wanted another (not sure yet), I sure don't know how we'd pull it off. Oh, did I mention Eli (just turned 2) is tryng to give up the nap as well? (except he clearly clearly needs it, so we're trying to make it happen, fighting w/him every day about it). So there goes any other together time, brief as it was (often only 1 hr). DH, in desperation, tried to close the door to his room the other day to encourage quiet/nap time (if we leave door open and leave the room, rather than lie down w/him, he just comes out to try to play), and Eli just played and tried to take the room apart. DH would go in periodically to tell him this was quiet time, and Eli just says "no, hee, hee" (literally), laughing in his face. Sigh, gotta love the highly verbal child.

I enjoy the first 10 minutes of laying down w/him for bedtime (cuddle time), but that's about it. Then it gets old and boring, plus he often hits and kicks us, which just sucks and gets us upset, and it's a bad cycle.


----------



## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

So, yeah, I was thinking about this post at around 3am as I went from child to child pretty much all freaking night. I do this each and every night. Ds#2 nurses every hour + and ds#1 scratches his eczema and wakes up crying.

And, naptime. May I add that to the list?
I lay down w/Babe to nap while toddler screams at the door b/c I'm not w/him. 2x/day for this joy.

I am so g'darn freaking tired. I KNOW it's a stage, but I truly feel like I'm going to lose it.
And, yes, our night time routines take well over an hour laying in bed. This doesn't count the "getting ready for bed" time.


----------



## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)

OK, I love you ladies. I seriously thought I was the only one.

Mine was up until 2am and then woke up at 7 am. IT's noon now and no nap in sight....

edited to say: mine has never been easy to get to sleep, not in the car, not in the sling, not in a swing, bouncy chair, rocking in my arms, NOTHING has ever really helped us, not even nursing could get him down. Sleeping (or lack of it) has been the single most difficult part of parenting for me.


----------



## Shanghaimum (Jan 4, 2002)

I know I am a bit late to this thread, but I just had to post. I actually just printed off all of the messages for my Dh. We have a 21 month old champion sleep-fighter. We have a routine, he no longer nurses (I am 30 wks pregnant), consistent patterns to our day, lots of exercise, and it still takes about an hour of lying down with him every night - sometimes even longer.

I love Mothering.com - I know that maybe it is sick to love the fact that we are not alone in this, and that others have toddlers who also hate to go to sleep, but I can't help it, it makes me feel better.

Emma


----------



## Oklahoma Mama (Feb 12, 2003)

Naptimes are usually easier for us. My 16 month old doesn't like to go to bed either. Typically, it will take about 20 minutes on a good night then about 10 minutes for each time he wakes up (sometimes 3-4 times a night). We have had marathon session where it took 2 hours.

I put him to sleep by walking him in the sling. It would get very boring in the dark so I always go turn on the TV and walk back and forth in that room with all the lights out. I have a Maya Wrap so I put the tail over where any light can come in and he will usually go to sleep in 20 minutes. Lately, since I became pregnant I haven't been able to walk him that long. So after several difficult nights I discoved that I could walk him for about 5 minutes then nurse him about 5 minutes then walk him to sleep after that. If that doesn't work I have just started to be able to rub his back once I put him down and he will go to sleep. He has been in his own bed for several months and in his own room for about a month now. If he was still co-sleeping he would be tossing and turning all the time. He likes a lot of room.

Lately, I learned something good that really works for us. Making sure he gets good naps (he still naps 2 times a day) helps him go to sleep easier at night. For my son it takes longer for him to go to sleep at night if he is overtired.


----------



## nuggetsmom (Aug 7, 2002)

LOL I was going to post this same dillema today. I hate bedtime too and I agree that it is just so hard to get her to relax. and I too find it boring as hell. Oh well.


----------



## Threefold (Nov 27, 2001)

I'm not bored by it. Like Curious, I enjoy the time to listen to good music (I love our sleepy CDs) and mull over the day, etc. And on the nights when ds is in the mood for bonding, it's a ritual like no other. But, I start to get impatient thinking of all I have to do and when I get too relaxed with him, I'll fall asleep before the kitchen is clean to my satisfaction, before I've brushed, before I've checked e-mail or MDC







: AND when I do fall asleep with him before getting all thsoe done, the next day is harder b/c the housework is pilling up. . .
and some nights, when he is overtired, he hits me while fighting sleep and I don't enjoy that. . .


----------



## EllasMama (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by elismom_
*Together time for the 2 of us???? What the hell is that?*
Ditto! I think that is the second biggest casualty after losing time to regroup and rest myself. Except we sometimes do get together time. Specifically, from 11pm-1am on a Friday or Saturday night, if we can both manage to stay up long enough. And what is our favorite together activity? Watching TV. Wheee. But what else do we feel like doing when it's so late and we've just wrestled a crazed animal to sleep, LOL?









Carol


----------



## ksmeadowlark (Jun 17, 2002)

I just gave up on bedtime long ago. I figure that my kiddo is such a strong sleep fighter, I would rather let him stay up as late as he wants rather than struggle and fight with him and be miserable. My mom said I was the same kind of baby/kid.

Luckily for me, since weaning in Jan, DH has taken over primary bedtime resposibilities. This was crucial, as I teach night classes and don't get home until about 10:30. DS is still up waiting for me most nights (heck he was up until 12:30 tonight) but at least he is able to wind down a bit usually after I get home. DH gets him to sleep by reading "Poohsties" which are his madeup word for a series of Pooh books that we have.

Our biggest problem at this point is the lack of that together time, as mentioned before. DH goes to work in the a.m., comes home, we overlap for 15-20 min, I get home, he is doing the bedtime ritual and usually goes to sleep with DS, and I am here chatting with you ladies since everyone else is sleeping. We are going to have a schedule change in the fall as I will be going back to work fulltime, and we will have more family time. Our relationship has really suffered with this schedule.

Sometimes I am almost jealous of my friend who went the CIO route at 6 months and puts her happy, well-rested baby down in her crib at 7 p.m. each night (this still works for her, 8 months after starting). Down deep I know that this wouldn't have ever worked for my DS, but still...


----------



## Curious (Jan 4, 2002)

I will add that Dh time has indeed suffered. Dd finds him exceedingly fascinating, so all our attempts to lie down all together and whisper in the dark have been miserable failures. And Dd would wake up if I'd move out of contact - until she was about 19 months old. At last, when she is alseep, Dh can get a little time. Fatigue plus lack of contact time was really rotten.


----------



## Iguanavere (Nov 26, 2001)

I can so commiserate with all of you. DS was a champion sleep fighter, beginning at the very beginning. He always slept well, he just could not transition to sleep well and fought it the whole way!

Now ds is 3 and for the passed 6 months bedtime has been the favorite time of day for us. Let me explain:

"Oh, did I mention Eli (just turned 2) is tryng to give up the nap as well? (except he clearly clearly needs it, so we're trying to make it happen, fighting w/him every day about it)."

I think that between 18 months and 2 there is a real need for setting limits and boundaries for sleep fighters. I also think that they are probably trying to drop naps and just don't know how to deal.

This was my son, at 2 he was resisting napping, yet seemed to really need a nap. Then at night he would resist sleep again.

Once I gave up the ghost and stopped trying to make him nap, life has gotten so much easier and ds goes to sleep between 7-8 pm and sleeps until 6-7 in the morning.

Here is what worked:

It took about a month to transistion out of naps....there were times he would fall asleep around 5 pm and that sucked - so I would try to be at a park or ourside or somthing around that time so that we could then do dinner and the whole routine at 6, so ds was ready for bed at 7.

Get strict with your nighttime routine. Do not deviate. Do not be afraid of your child's anger over the new limits (boundaries) just empathize that changes are hard but this is the best for everyone. (Geez, I just read that and I sound like a babywiser - eek. Remember we are talking about toddlers - not tiny babies!)

I nightweaned and also stopped nursing ds to fall asleep. We are still nursing todady and ds is 3 - so it can be done.

anyway - this is what worked for me and I totally realize that this may not work for everyone.

The point of all of this is that now bedtime is our favoriate time. So much that ds's favoriate pretend game is to pretend to go to sleep with his animals, doing the whole routine.

We've also really gotten into reading books at night as part of our routine and I just love this!

Good luck! I know how hard this is!


----------



## Jennifer Z (Sep 15, 2002)

When I started reading this thread it was 4:30 am on Saturday morning, and I was being kicked and having my breast pulled all over the place trying to get my sleep fighter to settle down. Took until 5:45am to actually get him to sleep.

I was SO glad to see this thread. I felt so alone...like the sentiment echoed above.."where is my easy AP baby". I have tried everything, but my son, like his parents







: , is a sleep fighter. Our "goal" bedtime is later than most...between midnight and 1am. dh gets home from work at a bit after 11pm, and likes to spend a bit of time before bed with my ds. Now, my dh has to go to bed before I get ds down because the sleep deprivation was killing him at work.

The time I made the mistake IRL to mention our bedtime struggless, all I would get was "babies are supposed to sleep from 7-7...just put him in the crib and walk away, he will eventually learn to fall asleep." There were so many things wrong with that I don't even know where to begin. (the least of which is the 7am part, lol).

I felt so alone because I couldn't talk about the problem IRL because of all the AP critisms and I felt like an AP failure because it wasn't blissful anymore. Even though I don't know about solutions now, I don't feel so alone.

Oh...and how do you keep a child awake. (not letting them sleep after a designated time so that they sleep through the night). My ds has basically "passed out" because he was so tired, wouldn't be roused back awake, and ended up just making the problem worse because he would wake up and be ready to go for another 7 hours, even though he fell asleep 2 hours before his previous bedtime. *sigh* Eventually, something has to work. I just hope it's soon.


----------



## Nanner (Apr 12, 2002)

Yep Yep yep. I am there too. *Sigh* Only mine will be 3 in September. Sorry to break that part to you! I wish I could say it gets a whole lot better, but no, not for us anyway. My current bedtime problem is that she takes a late nap (about an hour), and then that lasts her until 10-11:00 (or later!) at night. Today she hadn't taken a nap by 4:00, so I tried to make her stay up without one (usually if she does not take one by 3, I do this, though I will say that *any* nap at any time usually makes her stay up late). Well, it is 5:30 right now and she has been asleep for about 30 minutes. She was screaming and I was going to snap if I did not put her to sleep.
Last night she had not had a nap all day, we had been at this carnival for 3 hours, she was absolutely dead tired, and it took me 1 hr of laying with her for her to go to sleep. She was sitting up with her eyes closing and falling over saying "I'm not tired, I want to read books" She tried everything under the sun for me to let her out of bed to (potty, water, food, movie, books, to call Grandma,etc etc) I don't let her up- she gets a sippy of water and 1 potty trip, that's it.
My problem is this inconsistent nap thing. Plus, I watch a friend's 5 mth old (the baby that sleeps thru the night and you just lay her on the bed and walk away for naps!!!!!! And, might I add, she does this with NO cry-it-out. Ugh!!) every a.m. from 6:30-11:00 or 12:00, and dd has toruble sleeping without me in the morning, so she gets up b/w 6:30-7:30 and she is still tired and SO grumpy, but I just can't go lay with her b/c I've got the baby.
So, yeah, I understand. The only thing I can say is I do getmore of a break (usually) after she (finally) goes to sleep b/c she usually stays in her own bed for 3-6 hrs before joining me (this has only happened in the last 6 mths or so). I really need sleep, plus some time to myself!!!!!
Good luck, they say it gets better eventually.
Sara


----------



## Curious (Jan 4, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Iguanavere_
*
Get strict with your nighttime routine. Do not deviate. Do not be afraid of your child's anger over the new limits (boundaries) just empathize that changes are hard but this is the best for everyone. (Geez, I just read that and I sound like a babywiser - eek. Remember we are talking about toddlers - not tiny babies!)

*
Warning, This is long and may not be coherent, but I hope someone finds it worthwhile:

"Routine" seems to get a bad name around here sometimes. I-vere makes it clear she is not talking about routines for tiny babies, but there are ROUTINES, and then there are routines. Gentle rhythms to the day can provide cues that smooth out the rough spots.

After reading here I realize I have little to complain about. Most of my problem, I realized, was my anxiety that Dd would wake up again for hours, like when she was newborn. Once I talked sense to myself, that eventually she'll fall asleep and pretty much stay asleep (I haven't dreamed of nightweaning - nursing is why she stays asleep), and she doesn't wake up for the prolonged periods I used to dread.

I will admit here that we have what could be called a strict bedtime routine. It's nice family time for everyone, with sensory delights including bubble bath and music and massage and laughing. It's strict in that I march through it step by step the same way every night. And part of the routine has included a schedule, because Dd napped better on a schedule, and then slept better, than when we didn't have one. And with a less topsy-turvy course to our day, I napped better and felt better too. With a schedule I got to eat on a more regular basis, so I wasn't getting hypoglycemic.

I will admit here that I started this when Dd was a Tiny Baby. Because the nights were horrible and Dh and I had to do something. So I decided that I would set up this routine and funny thing, Dd took to it really fast, and did much better.

Now she understands this routine because with a few changes as her needs have changed as she's gotten older, it's all she knows. And I'm happy to say that no matter how wound up she seems, with rare exceptions she konks out by the time a certain song comes around on the lullabye CD.

There was some suggestion in other posts that AP creates these sleep trials and that's probably true. I am not saying CIO at all - let me be clear, but I am going to stick my neck out and say that routines sometimes get a bad name on these boards. I don't think telling our tiny babies that they get a bath and then naked timme, a massage and then a diaper and then lights out but you can nurse all you want for the rest of the night while I hold you, is the same as saying there's the crib, see you in the morning.

Another point on some of the gymnastics people go through to get kids to sleep. I have a bad back and Dd was a big baby. By 4 months, I could not walk her, and I could never do jiggles our bounces. She was very sensitive to my position - how she knew to cry when I sat and stop when I stood I didn't know. But one day she was just too heavy to walk. Of course I was not going to sleep train her as had been suggested to me, but I did not see the point of teaching a growing baby that she was going to be carried for hours on end. The sling did not work much for us, because after she fell asleep, we had the problem of getting her out of it without waking her up.

I sat in the rocker with her and said "I'll hold you, I'll rock you, you can nurse, I'll stay with you all night, but I cannot walk with you." She fussed quite a bit, when she cried I'd stand for a minute and sit down again . After that night she was happy in the rocker. So at least when she takes her time falling asleep, I'm comfortalbe and that makes a big difference. Instead of thinking of my aching neck, arms, and back, I could think about how pretty my baby was.

Now maybe all of this is her temperment, and has nothing to do with all my calculated measures to lull her to sleep. But I did want to make my points about routines having their place, even for young babies, and that holding the baby but not doing gymnastics is not the same as CIO.

There are many things about Dd that I can say are more likely due to her temperment than to my artful parenting, but for sleep I think my well thought out tactics have truly been helpful. Then again, maybe I'm wrong...I guess I just think it might be helpful for others to consider routines pretty early on, and give lots of thought to what alternatives to the walking and bouncing might be worth trying.


----------



## Threefold (Nov 27, 2001)

oopps

dp


----------



## Threefold (Nov 27, 2001)

I agree with the routine, the problem is, that sometimes things happen that break our routines, some by choice (staying late at a potluck) and some just bad luck (needing to poop but too tired to let it out, then it keeping ds up until he's too sleepy to not poop, you get the picture. . .) And it seems that once the routine is off few nights, it throws thigns off for a while. . .
My dh also has a really inconsistent work schedule, which is very hard on ds and often disrupts the bedtime routine.
Oh well. . .


----------



## Curious (Jan 4, 2002)

I did not say above (I wrote too much for one post already) that our "routine" can be moved back and forward as other life events permit. True, we are just getting into toilet requests that throw in another unpredictable factor. But even if we come home late from a night out, we still go through the Whole Thing. It takes awhile, but is well worth it, because it sends a strong signal to Dd's sleep center about what should happen next.

I guess that's part of the difference between a routine and a ROUTINE. The routine should work for everyone to make life better, not militarized.


----------



## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Hi Everyone,

Wow. I must say that I am overwhlemed by the sheer *volume* of frustration out there. I know we are a self-selected group, bc happy, well-rested parents of Sleepers don't respond to threads like this, but I do not think it would be a stretch to say that this is a real drawback to AP, at least as it is "advertised" these days.

I've been mulling this over for days -- especially as I have been toiling to fix our own little sleep problems -- and I thought I would make a feeble attempt to pull this all together and at least move us in the direction of healing (for lack of a better word) so that we're not just stuck in our frustration and helplessness.

First, let me say, elismom, BusyMommy, PumpkinSeed, Emma, OklahomaMama, nuggestmom, ksmeadowlark, Jennifer Z, and Nanner, you've all been HEARD. I read all of your posts with great empathy, and while I wish I could respond to each of you personally, consider yourselves HUGGED!

(((((((elismom, BusyMommy, PumpkinSeed, Emma, OklahomaMama, nuggestmom, ksmeadowlark, Jennifer Z, and Nanner)))))))))))









Curious and Iguanavere, thanks so much for your words of wisdom and advice. They mean so much coming from mamas who have experienced sleep success.

On a personal note, I wanted to reinforce what Iguanavere said about being very disciplined with the routines . . . This past week my dh was working 20-hr days and I was basically a single mom, so I KNEW I had to get ds to sleep more reasonably.

Thanks to this thread and some others, I came to realize that I have been making several mistakes with ds's sleep:

1) letting him sleep until he wakes up each day (which varied from 7 to 9:45)

2) letting nap times vary according to when he woke up, so that he was going down anywhere from 12:30 to 4

3) letting him nap until he woke up, and sometimes nursing him back down if he seemed grumpy when he woke (so he would sometimes nap for 3-4 hours!)

4) starting the bedtime too late (due to social functions or simply waiting for dh to get home so ds could see him)

I will also admit that I recently read Weissbluth's book on sleep training (something about Happy Baby, Healthy Sleep) and while I think the man has the emotional intelligence of an ACORN (encouraging parents to let 4 mos old babies cry for 4 hours -- please!), I was able to glean a few nuggets of helpful advice -- mostly pertaining to the things I just listed above.

So now we:
1) wake up each day before 8:00, regardless of what kind of HELL we went thru during the night
2) nap at 1:00 (or earlier), no matter what kinds of fun thigns may be going on
3) are out of the bath by 8:15 (even if it means a standing-up sponge bath so we're out in 45 seconds)

and he has been asleep by 9:00 every night since I first posted this thread. (and yes, as dalai_mama said, things do happen to disrupt, but I then put everything into fast forward to make up for it -- and I no longer let social activities disrupt -- very hard!)

Note that I am still putting him to sleep -- slinging, back-rubbing, etc., and we have made NO progress in getting him to fall asleep lying down, but for my own sanity I had to shorten the duration of the falling asleep first. When we've got this down pat (like, this works for a MONTH or more), maybe THEN I will have the energy to try teaching him to help put himself to sleep. (Also note that I am not claiming long-term success . . . I fully realize this could all change at a moment's notice, but for now, we seem to have found a pattern that works.)

And let me tell ya, keeping to this pattern is HARD. And it is NOT the AP I read about in any of the Sears lit. THIS is where I think we all have been lead astray . . .

Sear and others convinced us early on that if we just "follow babies cues" and "respond to baby empathetically and lovingly" that all would be rosy. Frankly, I think Bill and Martha are either full of it, or they have conveniently forgotten, bc there is no way in HELL those people had 7 babies and NONE of them were sleep-fighters. Maybe they were doing something so obvious to them that they neglected to write about it, but in any case, as wonderful as they are, and as much as they have done to promote excellent parenting, I belive they have missed the mark on this one. (trying to avoid any flaming here)

I also think that the AP message has been that if you just "incorporate baby into your lives" that you'll be happiest. And for many, many months, this was true and I wouldn't change a thing.

I believe that AP parents do much of what they do in an effort to put Baby first. They are self-sacrificing, selfless, empathetic, and hard-working. And it now appears to me that in order to put Baby first, that is, so that Baby gets the sleep s/he needs, AND save our sanity at the same time, we must make some sacrifices during the day. It is SO much easier for me to sleep until 9:30, especially after he has woken 6 times in 6 hours!, or to let him nap for 3 hrs (what a break!), or to keep him out late at a fabulous outdoor concert.

And don't misunderstand me -- if this is still working for a family, more power to you! But if you are burning out like me (and nearly everyone above) then I think it's time to act more like a "traditional" parent who watches the clock very carefully.

And it's trade-off. There are some definite feelings of being trapped . . . can't stay at the pot-luck past 7, and it didn't start until 6 . . . can't go out to dinner bc dh got home form work too late, etc, etc.

One other thought: It seems to me that for AP parents, CRYING is to be avoided at all costs (it has been in my house) -- not that we don't let ds feel his sad or angry or hurt feelings, but extended crying jags related to sleep have been avoided like the plague! But you know, people who nightwean experience some crying, and happily report that their children are not adversely affected -- and I believe them that their children's trust has not been violated -- so why it is that we couldn't have a little crying as we try to learn to fall asleep?

I know, I know, there's a fine line that none of us want to cross, but I guess I'm wondering if we all aren't so afraid of the crying that we haven't really given our babes a *chance* to learn to fall asleep. (flames may fly for that one!)

I feel certain some of you already do all these things I'm suggesting, and they still don't work for you. But are there any others of you who are making similar mistakes as I was, and if so, do you think you want to try shifting? You don't need to answer me -- it's more food for thought.

One thing I KNOW FOR CERTAIN after my 21 mos as a mother is that NOTHING will work for EVERYONE. SO I would never presume to prescribe a program with a "guarantee" (blows my MIND when the "sleep experts" do!). I guess I'm just grasping at straws.

And if I could make helping AP parents get their children to sleep AND STILL AP my life's work, I think I would go for it.

Sorry for the novella. I just couldn't STAND to post a thread where all we do is wallow in our frustration . . . I want AP to WORK, DAMMIT!

(P.S. I know at least one person has posted while I was writing -- hope this won't be redundant!)


----------



## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Yes, Curious, my routine does feel a little militarized, esp in comparison to our old life (and to those of most of my AP friends) but I choose it over the heart-wrenching, back-backing struggle of a 2-hr sleep fight. And I guess my hope is that once we've established this routine really well, maybe we canback away from it on occassion. As our life was before, one late night was all it took to turn everything on it's head. And that was not working for this little family!


----------



## EllasMama (Nov 20, 2001)

Breathe, I think the routine has to feel somewhat "militarized" at first because you are moving from one lifestyle to another. It's like getting into an exercise routine or diet after not being on one. You have to force yourself in prescribed ways or you will slide quickly back into your old routine (or lack thereof, LOL!).

I also think that the changes you are envisioning to the sleep routine go hand-in-hand with other limits you have to start setting with toddlers. I felt so totally lost on how to make the transition from AP-ing a baby to setting limits with a toddler. It seemed like everything I read about AP implied that if you let the child lead and just love them enough, they'll be well-behaved, happily sleeping, unchallenging little beings. Sure, there would be the occasional heart-to-heart discussion (and mutual agreement) on how to resolve a sticky situation, but I wouldn't ever have to raise my voice or pick her up and carry her out of a store or anything. Ha! So I was clueless how to start setting limits, how to not feel angry and guilty and mean about it, how to put my needs into perspective. I still struggle with this, but it's getting a little easier over time.

Let's face it, a mom is not a machine. There are times when I am tired, sore, mad, sad. I cannot reasonably be expected to put on a happy face and love life when I'm breaking my back lugging a toddler for an hour at night and going without enough sleep. Nor can I be as good a mom during the rest of my days when I'm so tired. Those realizations gave me the courage to withstand hearing DD cry some as I gradually cut down on nighttime nursing, or gradually reduced the time I'd walk her around before bed. The nightweaning made DD mad for a couple weeks, then she was over it. She isn't traumatized for life, and in fact she now sleeps through the night (which wasn't instantaneous but certainly was directly related to nightweaning in our case). Sometimes she wants to walk around more than our usual ~5 minutes before bed and I tell her, "No, Mommy is too tired. I will snuggle with you if you want." Sometimes she gets mad, but that's how it has to be.

I wish I could report that these changes have made DD the world's best sleeper, but they haven't. She still fights sleep, but at least she's using me less as a punching bag for her frustrations. She's learning more and more to rely on herself to go to sleep, and she's actually able to fall asleep by herself maybe half of the time now (after our usual routine). It finally feels like the last 10 months of hard work trying to envision and implement changes is paying off.

Keep the faith. It can be hard work, but it's worth it for both your sanity and your child's ability to gradually learn to fall asleep on his own which we all eventually need to learn to do. I don't think an infant should be left to their own devices, but let's face it, an 8 year old should have some sleep skills and it's our job to help them learn those skills!

Carol


----------



## mamabutterfly (Jun 23, 2002)

Breathe -

Thanks so much for those thoughts. I think you're on to something. I admit I read it with a combination of interest and dread, though. Mostly because I'm coming to the same place - where I'm pretty sure I need to make some changes to our lifestyle for more consistency in dd's life (she's 16 mo.).

But I don't want to do those things!!!! Waaaah!









*sigh* Okay, I got that out, lol.

I like sleeping in when she does, the long naps, (and even the accidental 6pm naps.... I LOVE to cook and eat dinner w/dh without interruption!!) and yes last night there was a potluck.

It was a friend's bday, the potluck was at 6:30, I let dd nap at 6 to have some energy for it. We went from 7:30 - 9:30, had a great time, met new friends, felt like I actually had a social life, dd got to dance.

But bedtime was a mess, and basically last night she slept from 12:40 am (







) to 5:30 when she got up with dh for a while, then again from 7:30 - 10 am.
So your post was right on time. I've got to get some more discipline. I really don't have much myself, or much consistency to our schedule pre-dd, so it's hard to do now. But it's time, I know.

Anyway, housework awaits....

mb


----------



## sozobe (Aug 5, 2002)

I agree that a routine is a must. I read with some surprise that a routine is contrary to what the Sears' recommend, though, and went back to my well-worn copy of "The Baby Book" and found that pages 336-337 (in my addition) really SUPPORT a routine. Some excerpts (which I'm typing as I I look at the book, so excuse typos):

Quote:

_Our baby won't go to bed before midnight. What do we do?_

Take charge! You are the parents and that gives you the privelege of deciding what bedtime needs to be for your family. Try these steps:

- Push the afternoon nap back to an earlier time so baby is truly tired.

[snip]

-Stick to a bedtime ritual -- winding down and wearing down, brushing teeth, a lullaby, and lights out -- so that baby expects sleep to follow the same routine.

[snip]

- try the adult-in-charge approach. If despite all your soothing strategies baby still protests succumbing to sleep, calmly but firmly lay hands on baby, saying, "It's OK... go to sleep... go night-night."
Another excerpt:

Quote:

Bedtime rituals are the salvation of tired parents. Babies, like adults, are creatures of habit. Before-bed rituals condition baby to recall a mental picture that when a certain activity begins (warm bath, wearing down, massage, story and cuddle), sleep is soon to follow. The older the child and the busier the daytime parents, the longer the bedtime procrastination. Children have a way of extracting from parents the very thing they have the least of -- time.
HOWEVER, all of that being said, I do think there are two weaknesses with the Sears':

1.) The Baby Book is for BABIES, and doesn't necessarily apply for toddlers.

2.) They didn't start being AP parents until they'd had a few children. The children that were AP'ed had older siblings to join in bed, and examples for bedtimes.

This has particularly bothered me in terms of transitioning my dd into her own bed, and sleeping by herself. Of course it would be easier to transition her into sleeping WITH an older sibling, and how nice if that older sibling already had a bedtime routine and would go to sleep easily. There is nothing that puts a child to sleep better than laying down next to a sleeping human.

Meanwhile -- this thread seems to have morphed from "no advice, please, just sympathy!" to "so what do we do?" I have advice if wanted, but want to check on that first.


----------



## momcat (Aug 9, 2002)

Thanks, Breathe, for your neat "summing-up" here. I want to add to your list of Sears complaints - the one spot I got stuck on was the idea that if you teach your baby lots of different ways to go to sleep, it will eventually happen quickly and easily. This definitely did not work for us. We started a routine with ds about a week ago (just before your first post - lol!) for naps and bedtime, and it is starting to work beautifully. He still wakes often, but the initial entering sleep stage is getting easier. I think it might be easier for me to teach him to resettle himself if I night-wean him (he's 20 mos old on Fri), so that may be our next hurdle... and I KNOW it's going to involve crying. Ugh. I'm just trying to wait until all of his eye teeth are in - they are really bugging the poor guy.

So thanks, everyone, for your stories - isn't it nice to know we're not in this alone?!


----------



## momcat (Aug 9, 2002)

sozobe - we were typing at the same time. I'd love to hear more advice from folks.

Thanks, too, for going back to The Baby Book. I think you're right - it is tricky to make the same things work for toddlers, and it would be much easier to transition ds if he had an older sib to model nightime patterns. Thanks for your insights.


----------



## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

sozobe, ds is awake now so I have to hurry, but wanted to say, YES! Advice is more than welcome at this point! Thanks for asking -- you're a great listener!









I'll be back tonite after bedtime -- look forward to responding and hearing more!


----------



## Curious (Jan 4, 2002)

Our gentle routine has been called military by some family members, mostly when I am taking Dd off to sleep in the midst of some exciting event. It's not easy, but it's easier than dealing with the night time agitation, poor sleep quality, and next-day grumpiness that follow a late night. Since I'm the one who has to see her go through that, and face it, it's not fun to witness either, I am the one most motivated to get up and go at the right time.

Those who get to play with Dd the night before the morning after, but not have to care for her the next day, may complain as they wish. I have regretted curtailing activites, but the reward of a pleasant next day is worth it.

And even Dh has called me military, when I insist that we will NOT get up for a third drink of water (two are allowed). Dd may let out a howl of displeasure (this is a great excuse to get out of bed and look out the exciting kitchen window), but once she's stated her complaint, she settles down (don't let me jinx this, please). Dh has fortunately stopped picking her up and taking her out at each request (she got him to go 10 times once, he finally gave up). It wasn't a problem for him because he'd go to his office and do paperwork, and I'd be up with sleepfighting Dd after that). So again, I'm the one who is there, so it's easier for me to stick to my own rules, which evolved because they work without going against the AP spirit, IMHO.

On the Weissbluth book: terrible advice, but lots of interesting information about sleep. Worth reading, with many large grains of salt.


----------



## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Great thread








I read Weisbluth's book and took away from it the message that YES Sleep is terribly important for children. I read Pantley and got the message...Even I CAN do it, too. So, I've started to make changes.
I posted a thread a week or so ago called "I'm letting him CIO" about my 2.5 y.o. and found support there. So, yes, I needed to make changes for all of us. It got to the point that I wanted to go back to work in the fall rather than be a SAHM b/c I couldn't deal w/naps and sleep issues. Both kids are perfect at daycare b/c they have a routine and expectations.

Today is the first day that I have been awake and both of my kids have been asleep at the same time.





















My toddler now understands that at naptime, he gets a couple of stories, a kiss and a nightnight closed door. He fell asleep w/in a couple of minutes. Baby (7 mos) was asleep literally in under a minute after I left him in bed. And, yes, I'm using Pantley's advice to leave while he's still drowsy.

OMG I like staying home w/my kids now!









yeah, interesting about the Sears and their book. It was my "bible," too and caused my incredible angst b/c my kids wouldn't peacefully drift off like they were supposed to.

Edited to add:
EllasMama







YOu are 100% on target. How much love can I give when I feel like the walking dead and have 0 patience/tolerance?!?

PS: OUr nighttime routine has drastically improved since I started setting the nightnight timer. It's the one we use for cooking so he's very comfortable with it. I set it for 10 mins and he turns it on. We say, "when the nightnight timer goes beepbeepbeep, then it's time for night night." I even hear him repeat this to himself as he plays. It beeps, he turns it off and on go the jammies-no arguing.


----------



## Iguanavere (Nov 26, 2001)

"One other thought: It seems to me that for AP parents, CRYING is to be avoided at all costs (it has been in my house) -- not that we don't let ds feel his sad or angry or hurt feelings, but extended crying jags related to sleep have been avoided like the plague! But you know, people who nightwean experience some crying, and happily report that their children are not adversely affected -- and I believe them that their children's trust has not been violated -- so why it is that we couldn't have a little crying as we try to learn to fall asleep?

I know, I know, there's a fine line that none of us want to cross, but I guess I'm wondering if we all aren't so afraid of the crying that we haven't really given our babes a *chance* to learn to fall asleep. (flames may fly for that one!)"

Breathe - I was really confused when DS was around 18 months and nothing was working. I was deathly afraid to let ds cry even a little bit thinking that the AP police were definitely going to crash in and take me away.

I read "The Aware Baby" and also "Tears and Tantrums" (I think that is the title) by Aletha Solter. In these books she talks about how cathartic it is to cry and that since babies, toddlers and children don't know how to communicate their stress, the *need* to cry. They also need to be able to cry in a safe environment with loving arms around them.

Once I grasped that concept, I realized that ds (and now dd) sometimes just needs to get it out before they can sleep. It is really hard to hear your baby cry, but if you can accept it as just stress relief, it is amazing how quicly they get over it and then go to sleep or whatever.

I agree with you, The Sears Book (and this board at times) seems to lead you to believe that if you just BF, Family Bed, Baby wear that all will be well. It hasn't turned out that way completely, but still I would rather be here then over on the mainstream street.

Keep up your routine....life with children is one long weaning process, we do it slowing with love.


----------



## sozobe (Aug 5, 2002)

Thanks for the go-ahead, Breathe! Deborah Tannen (a linguist) has a thing about rapport-talk vs. report-talk, and I hate it when one is mistaken for the other!

Rapport-talk:

Person A: "It's so hard to keep an eye on my dd at the beach!"
Person B: "I know, they scoot around so fast and there are so many people!"

Report-talk:

Person A: "It's so hard to keep an eye on my dd at the beach!"
Person B: "Well, maybe you should try to dress her in a really brightly-colored swimsuit."

SO! Here are some things I've gathered from my experience. I'm gonna phrase them in terms of what worked for us, rather than universal truths -- I'm a firm believer in temperments, that all children are different in large and small ways, and "methods" can only do so much.

- As has already been noted here, exercise is huge. Dd always sleeps better on days in which she has had plenty of exercise.

- We have a routine that is not too strict, but has general categories. I have found this to be more workable than having something too regimented -- gives us more wiggle room while not "ruining" the routine. For example, we always read somewhere between 2 and 8 regular books, depending on how late it is, in our spot in the big bedroom, then pick out one more book and one "sleepy book" (we have about 10) and bring that to dd's room to read before going to sleep. When it's finished, kiss, I love you, good night, lights out.

- Once lights are out, that's it. If she's sick, we might turn the lights on, but that's all. (We make sure she's full and had enough to drink -- next one.) Probably the central concept from Sears that we have used is to be "dry as toast". After lights out, I'll hug her, I'll rub her back, I'll nurse (more in the past than now), but lights just won't go back on. And I just realized that the significance is not obvious -- I'm deaf, so if the lights are off, no (verbal) communication.

- Bedtime snack. Sears again has a bunch of info on the best bedtime snacks. I usually give her some sort of dairy -- yogurt with fruit in it is a biggie. I make sure she has had enough to eat and enough to drink.

- To skip around a bit, it helped to keep our bedtime routine at a reasonable length. At one point new things were being added on roughly once a week, and I had to put some effort into paring it back down to the essentials. It defeated the purpose if the routine itself took two hours.









- I have really studied my dd's sleep cycles, and know when she is likely to wake up and what the implications are. For naps, she's currently on cycles of about 55 minutes.







She needs to have two cycles right now (for the last 5 months or so) or she's WAY grumpy. She can occasionally have 3, but that's the limit on naps... never more than that or she won't sleep that night. However, I need to recognize that once she falls asleep she'll be asleep for about an hour and 50 minutes, and that she will be way grumpy if that's messed with. (Main thing with the cycles is to make sure to be quiet quiet quiet 55 minutes after she falls asleep, so she wakes up but then goes right back to sleep rather than waking up all the way.)

- She has been giving up some naps, and THAT'S OK. She tends to go two days on, two days off -- two days with naps, two days without. When she doesn't nap, she goes to bed earlier.

- When for whatever reason I need to wake her up before she is ready, I transition her using a video.







: It is the only thing that seems to work reliably for waking her up without extreme grumpiness

- I use this sort of technique to mold her sleep schedule. If she fell asleep much too late, I wake her up before her two cycles, because otherwise she will never get to sleep that night. She is definitely grumpier than usual, but the video helps. I do all I can to avoid that. Like

- I usually set a time every day by which she has to fall asleep. If she's not asleep by then, I drive her around (which usually works.) If she doesn't fall asleep then, I bring her back in for some quiet nursing time, and count the quiet time as a pseudo-nap. Then I start working on keeping her awake until an earlier-than-usual bedtime. If that absolutely doesn't work, and she falls asleep later than planned but much too early to go to sleep overnight, I do the above.

- My overwhelming focus is on how many hours of sleep she gets in a 24 hour period, not when she goes to bed and when she wakes up.

- This is a big one for me, but I already brought it up and I think it's impractical for a lot of people -- to really separate out bedtime, as going to sleep, and bedtime, as being isolated from the fun everyone else is having. I had a huge power struggle with my parents for as far back as I remember about going to bed before I was tired. I am inherently a night-owl (which should probably be another bullet point, but this thing has been on my screen all blessed day and I need to finish it and get to bed!!







), and my parents wanted time to themselves, and so made me go to bed, turn out the lights, etc. I well remember sitting there and stewing and listening to them (I became deaf later in life) and being FURIOUS. It made me HATE bedtime, myself.

When all of us go to bed at the same time (in 5 mins! hubby's handling bedtime routine), that whole aspect is removed, and it has seemed to be a good thing with my dd. She likes bedtime, tells us she's tired and it's time to go to bed, and there aren't any power struggles. There are enough power struggles in toddlerhood, and nice to not have that one.

OK, book done! (Not really, but, bedtime!! Could there be a more appropriate reason for having to skedaddle?







) Hope there are some ideas that are somewhat useful in there!


----------



## Threefold (Nov 27, 2001)

Breathe~
I am so glad you started this thread. SO many good ideas have come up here (such brilliant women here at MDC!) and I've ben reminded of many things I should never have lost sight of








It just gets so hard for me to keep up the routine sometimes, maybe in part because it takes so much energy and I get worn out and relax too much. Also we underwent a change in routine when we turned the clocks forward because ds does not have "tweaking the spare" priveledges when the sun is down and when suddenly he was to go to sleep before the sun was down, he wanted to tweak alseep and it took us a while to come up with a good compromise. (Finally I decided to let tweak to sleep and then not again through the night. UNLESS the sun goes down before he is asleep, then he says goodnight to the spare and hands off.) We also got thrown off by beginning 2 half days at preschool which pushed nap back. He sleeps best at night when he naps from 12-3, but we don't get home 'til 1 on school days. I still haven't sorted this out and am not putting a ton of energy there because my teaching schedule will change in the fall and that will affect nap times as well.
BUT, two nights in a row, he was asleep by 8:45pm!


----------



## ksmeadowlark (Jun 17, 2002)

Breathe--I also shudder at the thought of change and structure in our lives, but it WILL happen whether I like it or not, when I go back to work fulltime in the fall.

I cannot teach all day with a foggy, sleep-deprived mind. Heck, my part-time teaching and my mothering both suffer from this as it is. Also, DS will be forced to get up at specific time each day, and he will have a structured routine at daycare.

I will go out on a limb (and slightly off-topic) here and say that my mothering overall may improve when I go back to work. My day is focused around getting DS to sleep so that I have some teaching prep time. Before that we run errands and after that I try to get more prep done/a little cooking/ laundry. DS looks forward to DH coming home bc all they do in the evening is play. I hardly have time anymore, although I try to do a few fun things with him during the week. I look forward to having some evening time with my family though...(sigh).


----------



## nuggetsmom (Aug 7, 2002)

Yeah, we have a pretty good routine and I agree that there is some wisdom in the Weisbluth book evenif he is a barbarian. But that book is responsible for so much of my mother guilt that I hate it anyway. Because there is no way that DD sleeps as much as his avarage kid. She sleeps from 9-9:30 till 7 or 8 and an hour nap during the day.

I do work and nearly fulltime, so DD does have a stricter routine than some, but she does like it. It really helps her predict what will happen to her next. I notice that when we deviate from it too much and too often she gets crabby and has more tantrums than ever. DH is having the hardest time with sticking with the routine and the limits though. He really likes to be free and easy and I personally like some routine to my day. ANyway at daycare they always nap after lunch and reading a book and singing a song so we do the same at home because I need for her to be into the routine at daycare too. If I get her up earlier though she will sleep a little longer for a nap and still not go to bed earlier.

Anyway, that said I think our problem is that we are too relaxed in the evenings. After dinner we just sit around and last night I decided to take DD out for a walk. She didn't go to sleep any earlier but she was more relaxed while we were going through the routine. I think we need to keep doing that. Get some exersize after dinner and her especially, and then go though the routine.


----------



## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

I haven't had time to read all of the posts, but I just want to sympathize.

Goo (barely a toddler) is just starting a new nighttime routine and she's doing MUCH better. It used to be screams and cries.

I am SURE this will come back when she's older.

Just remember, they will sleep when they are 15...they will sleep WAY TOO MUCH when they are 15!


----------



## Melaniee (Apr 15, 2002)

Right there with ya, mama.


----------



## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Please come back and complain. Oops, I mean please come back and play.
I started getting cocky and then we went on vacation. 10 days in. 5 more to go. I am in pure absolute unmitigated bedtime H*LL!







My 2 y.o. puts up a pretty good fight at bedtime. He's outraged that the fun has to stop and will milk that 2nd wind until his eyes are red.
My 8 mos old is a total night feeder b/c it is just too darn fascinating to eat during the day. He eats all blessed night long. I feel like I did back in college when I'd stay up all night long drinking coffee and cramming for finals.

Hello? Anyone else out there in misery? Please don't tell me I have the only dysfunctional family anymore.







:


----------



## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)

Oh, I had the worst night tonight BusyMommy. We had a bad day together in general and well, night time was the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak.

My ds doesn't care that we lay there "dry as toast" in the dark. He just keeps doing things that prevent him from falling asleep. For example, if he starts dozing off, he will startle himself and start drumming on his belly to make sure he doesn't go down.

He must be going through some kind of phase too, because the last several days he just whines and cries from the time he opens his eyes in the morning until he's finally asleep in the evening. Today all that whining was just more than what I could handle and I just burst out crying in bed trying to put him down.

ah, tomorrow will be a new day.....


----------



## chaka (Jul 1, 2003)

Talk about dysfunctional...ds is 19 months old and it takes about an hour and a half of tossing and turning in bed ( i am usually trying to protect myself while he trashes around) before he finally goes to sleep. And this is after spending about 45 min on the "routine" before that...bath every other day, snack, books and brushing teeth. So i usually lose about 2 and a half hours every night trying to get him to sleep and IT SUX! I just feel like this routine thing doesn't work no matter how hard we try - we've gone through a few different kinds and it never makes things easier. We have weaned to just morning nursing which has helped - before he would just nurse and nurse and nurse and not fall asleep and I would get soooo frustrated lying there.

So I decided to take matters into my own hands and wake him up at 7:30am even though he went to bed at 10:30pm. Well, lo and behold, he must have read my mind coz he woke up at 6:50am! So there I was thinking, tonight's going to be different....well, it still took that long to get him to bed, it just brought things forward an hour - so he fell asleep at 9:30.

I need to confess though that I laid in bed tonight at 8pm feeling totally relaxed and convinced that it was going to be easier tonight. By the time 9pm came about I left the room as I was getting too frustrated - of course ds came running after me crying. So I said to him - you need to go to sleep otherwise mommy will go bye-bye. We went back to bed and he was still climbing about me and the bed frame so finally i got so upset that i yelled at him....yes, i know that is the worst thing one can do..but then i admit i sometimes get to the point when i feel like it needs to come out of me and it actually works in getting ds attention and ds really does lay his head down and goes to sleep in less than 5 minutes after the "GO TO SLEEP!!!!"

I need someone to emphatise with me...I am trying really hard not to yell but does anyone out there experience the same as me...does anyone actually see results when they yell? or am i just shortcircuiting something in ds brain when i do that?


----------



## Iguanavere (Nov 26, 2001)

Chaka - {{{{{{{{Hugs}}}}}}} I know exactly what you are going through and I have had those nights to often.

yes, it seems like yelling does sometimes get us over the hump. I hate it and I vow everytime to never do it again, but I am still really struggling with it.

I sometimes really worry that what I am doing is worse then if I had just sleep trained at 4 months.

It just can't be good to have yoru child feel such animosity towards them over something that should be so calming and relaxing.

and you know how if you someone says, "don't think of a pink elephant" you can't do that. It 's the same thing with going to sleep, the more I push ds to fall asleep, the harder it is for him to fall asleep.

Tonight I just decided to start to say what I was felling, "I'm feeling really frustrated and tired and I just want you to go to sleep and cuddle with me. Please, just go to sleep."

Well I though ds was asleep, so I got up with dd and came out to the living room and got some soy ice cream and just as I was about to sit down, ds came out and saw me diving in to my "pity treat" and said, "i get spoon!"

I just gave in, he sat by me and ate some of the ice cream, then I put it away and he fell asleep laying on the couch.

Oh well.

When I start to feel like this, it's a sure sign that I need a day off - like a full 8 hours of not having to tend to children....one can hope.


----------



## momcat (Aug 9, 2002)

Oh, I hear all of you... again.

I hereby declare myself queen of the bedtime-haters club. Three words: vacation, canines (as in eye teeth) and thrush. Yes, friends, we're playing for the grand prize. Oh, and did I mention that I'm doing this without dh, who is home sleeping ALONE in our bed ALL NIGHT with NO WAKINGS? I am tempted to call every time ds wakes me up... heh, heh, heh... (if I knew how to insert these stupid smilies, I'd do that demonic one right here - work with me, folks)...

Things I have considered (but not yet done):
yelling
sobbing
bribing
leaving the room
leaving the state
leaving the country
night-weaning
weaning, period
drinking scotch
having ds drink scotch...

you get the picture.

okay, sorry for the vent. but i was invited to do so, right?!

hang in there, mamas!


----------



## Melaniee (Apr 15, 2002)

Oh mamas, I feel your pain! Okay, luckily NOT all of it, but some of it. We're getting canines, too. Ds barely noticed any of his other teeth (they didn't start until 11 1/2 months), but these do cause trouble. We are also away from home, for a month, but I think for us it will help get us out of some of our bad bedtime habits since we don't have our vices here (i.e. driving him to sleep when it just gets too late).

Some nights he nurses a lot, some he will sleep for quite a while before he wakes and we bring him in to our bed.

Last night he was hysterical after about 90 minutes. Crying "muck! muck! muck!" (milk), then would start to suck and just cry. Then called for "daddy! daddy!" We still don't know what happened, but after a dose of mylicon AND teething tablets he fell asleep.

I read someone gave their little one chamomile tea and it helped immensely, so I bought a box but haven't done it yet. I detest tea.

Tonight the weaning thing sounded attractive but now that our little guy is verbal and getting strong opinions I do not think it would go over very well.


----------



## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Momcat-your dh owes you BIGtime. Hard not to despise him, eh?







: It's funny, you're on vacation and you're supposed to be relaxed and have so much help from everyone. But, noone can help you at night time and that's the hardest job of them all. Plus, most folks tell you just to let them cry and get used to being on their own-"'bout time, ya know!"

yeah, what thoughts go through our heads at those dreaded times. My big one is "I WANT TO LEAVE." But, then I realize I have nowhere to go and I have to stick it out. I get to the point where I'm so stressed I just turn on the TV w/no volume so I'll have something to distract me from thinking about the next wake up in 25 minutes. Or, from thinking about how wild my toddler is as he's thrashing around on the bed reliving his day.

Actually







I think about this thread a great deal at night. Every night. It really is comforting to know I'm not alone and that, YES, it cannot last forever and other Moms out there are experiencing the same pain at the same time.









ciao


----------



## girrllie (Nov 20, 2001)

I can't believe this thread is still going . . or maybe I can LOL! I was without a PC the last two weeks but finally I'm back online!

I think the book about the *real* AP would be awesome! My friend and I talk about this all the time! How the perception was that we would have so much easier children b/c we were AP! WRONG!

And about Dr. Sears . . .hmmmm . . [eyes narrow, mouth taught]. We used his baby book all the time for "medical" stuff - colds, gas, etc. But I too have a very difficult time believing that all 7 or 8 of his kids (however many there are) were all sooo easy to get to bed and brush their teeth and don't run into the street and , and, and. Come on! Impossible!

Anyway, these posts have helped me a ton. Helped me to be more gentle at nighttime and to give in some as well. And have helped me garner some ideas. My nighttimes have gotten a little easier but that's b/c now I let DD stay up later. So the tradeoff is I don't get any personal time. She's going to bed with me at 10:30/11pm most nights and goes pretty easily - nurse to sleep or only 5 to 10 minutes of rocking. But This SUCKS! I'm exhausted! I want some time alone! This means I have naptime of one hour or so alone. The rest of the time I'm with a little bitty person who most of the time I adore. But please! Even an angel mommy would need more than an hour alone I would think! Something's gotta' give!

o.k. gotta' run and make dinner before DD gets too grumpy to eat!


----------



## Shanghaimum (Jan 4, 2002)

My little one, who is now almost 22 months old, continues his calistenics at bedtime... It doesn't matter what time he goes to bed at (within reason), he still takes at least 45 minutes to go to sleep. It is 45 minutes of my Dh and I lying with him trying to keep him on the futon and reminding him it is 'sleepytime'. I think part of it is is that it is his 'processing the day time'. I have noticed that as he becomes more verbal, he seems to need to talk about the day, and even act out the day, before being able to go to sleep. Has anyone else experienced this with their toddler?

I try and remind myself that this will pass, but I am getting increasingly worried. Baby #2 will arrive in 6-8 weeks and there is no way we can continue to spend so long on a bedtime ritual....

Emma


----------



## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

yes, i agree. our normal nighttime routine is a couple of stories and then we inventory the zoo. we go to the zoo almost every other day for a couple of hours. so, he goes through each animal and what it was doing on his latest trip. i think it's calming and very very rote for him. by the time we arrive at the end of the zoo, he's almost always asleep.

Yeah, Girrlie-it's still going strong. Dr Sears...any comments, sir?


----------



## momcat (Aug 9, 2002)

There's a funny article in the Spring, 2003 issue of Brain, Child entitled something like "Why I Hate Dr. Sears." It made me laugh. It also, apparently, garnered more mail (pro and con) from readers than almost any article they have ever published! If you can get your hands on a copy of it, I highly recommend it!


----------



## Iguanavere (Nov 26, 2001)

Can anyone post the Brain, Child site? I'd like to check it out...


----------



## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Hey Iguanavere, Here's the sire for the mag:

http://www.brainchildmag.com/

But the Dr. Sears article is no longer up there -- they only post articles from current issues. PM me if you want me to mail you a copy -- too bad I don't have access to a scanner!

--------------------------------

You guys may want to kill me, but I haven't been posting in this site bc we finally, finally, FINALLY seem to have found a peaceful and relatively quick bedtime routine. There's probably a fair amount of luck involved, but our move to a more "strict" routine *directly* coincides with when things got WAY easier.

After a few days of me waking ds up at the same time each day, he internalized that routine and he now will not sleep past that time even if we (and HE) desperately need him to!

Naptime is the same time every day, weekends and vacations too (no small feat, let me tell ya!), and after several days of being awakened after 2 hours, he now wakes after 2 hours ON THE DOT. (and will no longer be nursed back to sleep, even if I try).

And his internalization of these wake up times makes the consistent (and early) bedtime even more crucial, bc if he goes to bed late, he will not sleep in the next day to make up for it.

At naptime it's taking 1-5 min to get him down, and at bedtime, anywhere from 5-20 (with 20 seeming like an eternity these days). Note this HUGE caveat however:

He is falling asleep in the sling at naptime, and is practically asleep in the sling at bedtime -- dh does put him on the bed when he's still slightly awake.

So when we move to wanting him to fall asleep lying down, I imagine we will back to the hellacious struggle you're all experiencing right now.

I'm so sorry for those of you in the thick of the struggles. It truly is TORTURE.

Here's a thought: I'm thinking my next baby needs to know how to fall asleep lying down BEFORE s/he is mobile. That way, s/he can fuss and I comfort, but I won't have to do any physical restraining to keep him/her on the bed. Which is the part I just can't get past and the reason our 22 mos old is still being put to sleep in the sling!

Hang in there, tired mamas!


----------



## sozobe (Aug 5, 2002)

Found the article... reading it now:

http://www.brainchildmag.com/essays/...2003_eller.htm

I agree that processing is super important. We usually do this two times a day -- at dinner and then before bed. Never considered it to be part of the routine before, but you're right, I think that helps the whole decompressing thing along.


----------



## sozobe (Aug 5, 2002)

Hmmm... :?

The article makes some points, but misrepresents what Sears actually says, IMO. And by focusing on the whole "natural" thing, discounts much more empirical evidence about the benefits to co-sleeping, babywearing, etc.

For example, I really don't think Sears says this:

Quote:

In my opinion, it is a cruel thing to tell a new mother that babies who are mothered "naturally" (read: correctly) never cry.
Rather the opposite in fact. Just, if slinging (for example) will _reduce_ crying, why not try it?

And this is just over the top:

Quote:

This is why Dr. Sears is not simply annoying, but actually dangerous: because he speaks with the voice of false authority to the uncertain and fearful; that is, to new mothers.


----------



## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Yeah, this author is so full of vitriol and venom that I found it very difficult to get past my knee-jerk reaction (now I understand where this term comes from -- boy, did I want to kick her in the pants!). She clearly was an incredibly insecure (and ambivalent) new mother, and was no better than Dr. Sears in her assumption that if it didn't work for her, then it couldn't work for ANYONE.

I will say, however, that I too came away with that "babies whose needs are met hardly ever cry" message, and that MAY be one of the reasons we're in this sleep predicament today! (that msg was also reinforced by Our Babies, Ourselves, which I loved)

Didn't meant to hijack my own thread -- maybe if people want to dissect this article, we could start another thread . . . altho I'd be very surprised if there wasn't one already!


----------



## sozobe (Aug 5, 2002)

Exactly, Breathe.

Sorry to hijack!

Glad to know that your bedtime situation has improved.


----------



## momcat (Aug 9, 2002)

I guess the article made me laugh because we're in the throes of the sleep-fighting situation, and I have wondered many, many times if I was just plain nuts to follow "the book" as closely as I have. As a new mom whose mother was not (and continues not to be) very accessible, and having no close friends who were moms, AND having no AP support in my geographical area, I did follow the advice to a T. Now that I have gained my footing, I realize that what I did was out of fear, and I wish it had been different in a lot of ways. I think that there ARE a lot of ways to figure out how to parent effectively, and I think that I DID/DO need to AP my ds, for BOTH of us. I did feel a LOT of guilt, however, when I went back to work and put ds into day care - and it was the best decision I could have made, for all kinds of reasons.

So... I understand the strong negative reactions to the article, truly. But I also understand the frustration and concern underneath it all, too, which is probably why I appreciated it.

Let the hijacking continue...!


----------



## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Well, if you have even the slightest sadistic streak in you, you'll be happy to hear that I am back to HATE-HATE-HATING naptime again!!!!









Things were SO easy, so peaceful, so *sleep-inducing* there for a few weeks, and then last Thursday night, ds was awake from 4-6 a.m., so we let him sleep in until 8:45 (almost 2 hrs after the strictly scheduled wake-up time). And sure enough, even after delaying nap time for 30 min, ds would not, could not fall asleep. So I let him play for another hour, then tried again. And tried again, so that at 4:15, I finally took him out of the sling for the last time and said [MUCH TO MY DISMAY AND REGRET!!!!], "I guess you're not taking a nap today."









Dh seemed to get him down fine all weekend, but then today, after sleeping until 8:30 for the 4th day in a row (what can I say, we're all so sleep deprived, I just couldn't drag us out of bed?!?!), ds asked for a nap at his regular time, and was clearly very sleepy, but after about 5 min in the sling, he popped up and said,

"I'm not takin' a nap today!"

"Yes, you are." I said calmly. But I knew right then and there that I was SCREWED.

So I decided -- right there on the spot -- that it was time to "sleep-train" ds to fall asleep on the bed, and I knew it could take hours and that he probably wouldn't fall asleep today, but somehow I felt committed to teaching him -- he seems ready.

That was at the *beginning* of the 2 hours (which I insisted on bc that's how long he usually naps). At the *end* of the 2 hrs, I felt utterly defeated, beaten, bruised, exhausted and demoralized. (I probably don't need to tell you that he did NOT fall asleep.)









How in the HELL am I going to go 2 weeks (or more?!?) without a break?

Rhetorical question, mamas. Just thought some of you might be relieved to hear that the suffering continues in this part of the world, too.

BTW, I forgot to tell you guys that I pulled out my Baby Book recently and found that Dr. Sears thinks that a 9-mos old waking more than 1 or 2 times a night needs a change -- meaning, no more unrestricted nursing.







In fact, when I read several sections on nightweaning, I realized that he would find my situation (and most of yours) to be absolutely INSANE. (Altho I will say that in his little paperback on How to Get Your Child to Sleep), any time someone says they are still rocking their 18mos old to sleep, he replies, "what a lucky baby."







:

So how did we all get here? How did I miss those sections of the book? And what would this man say if he learned that he had unknowingly lead ALL these families and babies into naptime, bedtime, and nighttime HELL?!?

Do you think there's any way we could compose a group letter to him PLEADING for his assistance? I've emailed questions to him in his web site but have never been answered. Or might one of the MDC experts be helpful? Ideas?


----------



## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

:LOL Um, sorry, I'm not laughing at you. Well, heck, yes I am. We had an awesome day today taking the tram up the mt., hiking, playing, etc.







I was SO psyched for that lovely long nap that was to follow. Baby fell asleep the last 10 mins. of the drive home and toddler closed his eyes as we were turning onto our street.

Nap? Heavens, no. I tried for over an hour. Their little eyes binged open as I parked the car and that was it.

I really feel like I'm going insane when I get absolutely NOOOO break from my lovely children day or night.

ahhhh the joys...

Welcome back Breathe!


----------



## Megs Mom (Mar 19, 2002)

Well I just had a major hysterical crying fit. Been building for a while but the proverbial straw was no nap. Don't have it in me to go into details, but I'm barely clinging to sanity...and it only gets worse from here.


----------



## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)




----------



## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Yeah, I'm thinkin' these AP'd kids are gonna have to learn how to have quiet time BY THEMSELVES in a room WITH THE DOOR SHUT. It is not the end of the world, being alone, and that may be the only way to hang on to that last shred of SAHM sanity.

I'm not kidding. This will be a new goal for our family: By the age of 4, ds will be able to have "quiet time" alone, without me, for at least 45 minutes.

Between now and then, I'll meet you women over the cuckoo's nest!


----------



## Iguanavere (Nov 26, 2001)

I am right there with you! Quiet time is so critical and I am getting almost none!

No wonder I rely so heavily on the damn TV - and the guilt from that is almost as crazy-making as the no sleeping!

Our whole schedule has gone to hell in a hand basket. tonight, DD fell asleep and I put her in her crib at 8 - then it took another 45 minutes to get DS into bed and peacably as possible and then dd woke up, so I needed to nurse her down and it was 9 pm before I could get some me time. DS is 3 - no naps ever anymore an dDD is 8 months and only took a 30 minute nap this AM and a 45 minute nap this afternoon - both times with me holding her! - egads - feeling like I'm going to lose it.

OK - thoughts about Dr. Sears - i think that before we have children, we all probably got a little high off of the AP good vibes - but there is a reason why sleep training and schedules are so popular - parents go crazy and it is crazy-making thinking to not be able to have some breaks from our children.

We don't live in small hunter-gather communities. That is kind of my beef with The Continuum Concept - we don't live in small villages with dirt floors and no electricity.

It's up to us to create an AP lifestyle that works with in our culture. How can we do that?

It may mean making some compromises. For me, it was night-weaning at 2. I also just bought a crib, because my 8 month DD is to active for me to just leave her on the bed and I want to be able to spend some time with DS without worrying that dd is going to fall off the bed.

So she nees to learn to nap in her crib and she needs to sleep for longer than 45 minutes. At least once a day. This is about the whole family now....it always was, but when in was just DS, it was easy to forget about my needs or dh's.

OK - I need to go veg....jeez - I just had to re-type "veg" three times because I c ouldn't get it spelled right.


----------



## EllasMama (Nov 20, 2001)

Iguanavere, I was just having a conversation with a die-hard AP girlfriend today about how we never used a crib with child #1, but probably would try pretty hard to get child #2 to nap in one. I shunned swings, bouncy seats, and everything like that with DD (my first and so far only), but realistically when I imagine having my spirited, sleepfighting DD PLUS an infant, I know I'm going to need any help I can get both for the baby and with DD! I'm hanging on for dear life with my one child, if I have another anything like her I'll take salvation from a motorized chair or a library of videos or whatever!







:

I feel quite lucky amongst my peers because since DD was ~18 months, my mother has lived 2 hours away and can come over every couple weeks to help me out! Most of my friends have NO reliable help around. That's why the Continuum Concept or doing "perfect" attachment parenting is absurd for most people I know. Even if I give 100 percent it will not be close to what a child would get with a real community of moms, aunts, grandmothers, etc. on hand every day. We just have to do our best with the resources we've got, and maybe even start thinking about that horrible line (some of) our moms tell us, "Well, I didn't do X with you but you turned out okay...".









Maybe God(dess) gives us first children so we realize that our intentions are the very best, and second children so we accept that we can fall short of our intentions and still have amazing kids who clearly feel the fullness of our love despite our failings....

Carol


----------



## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

[peeking around the corner for the AP police]

I figure that anyone who is sick of this topic stopped reading long ago, so this confession is for you die-hards still hanging on out there . . .

The day has arrived. I am *finally* ready (which means that I am 100% confident that ds is ready at 22 mos) to teach ds how to fall asleep without the acrobatics and dog and pony show. You know why? Because I want to have another baby, dammit! And we cannot have this craziness when I am in my first trimester . . . I know this to the core of my being. (And some of you mamas of 2 helped convince me!)

So thinking that we will probably TTC 6 mos from now, I figured I had better get started. So this past Monday was the official first day, and while it is EXHAUSTING to have to work so hard, and to even not get a break in a given day, I am no longer in conflict over this, so it is much easier emotionally.

Here's what I'm doing at naptime (dh is on his own at bedtime -- I've just asked him not to change anything until we've seen some progress during the day):

We're still sticking to a stict routine (for waking, napping, and bed), but now after 2-3 songs in the sling, I am lying down with ds on the bed and basically holding him in a bear hug. [here's where the AP Special Forces team storms my house]

I tried letting him crawl and roll and kick and bounce around the bed on Monday, but that was the day he stayed awake beside me for 2 hours and ended up with no nap (this is the child who has consistently napped for 2 hours for the last 3 mos or so). So that did not work.

But I reasoned it out with dh that ds is used to falling asleep in my arms, in the SNUG sling, so if I want to change only one element at a time, the next step is to have him fall asleep in my arms, held SNUGLY, but just lying down.

And yesterday he fell asleep after 30 min. (I also added some Native American chanting, bc I think the quiet was also too sudden a change.)

Today it took an hour, but BY CRACKY I am COMMITTED to this!!!!!! I am breathing and trying to stay relaxed, and am visualizing that by this Christmas, lying down on the bed will be his new sleep association. Just in time for me to TTC and *hopefully* be dead on my feet for about 14 weeks!

And if I have another child like this one, I will not let it get this far. But I'm guessing there's SOME chance I may get a sleeper next time. Right?!?!

Thanks for listening, mamas!


----------



## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)

THis is what I'm hoping for....

Quote:

_Originally posted by Breathe_
*[But I'm guessing there's SOME chance I may get a sleeper next time. Right?!?!

*


----------



## momcat (Aug 9, 2002)

I swear, Breathe, you and I have GOT to get out of one another's heads! Here's my story of late:

Ds (almost 21 mos) and I are flying solo this month (without dh) and I decided it was time to begin to teach him how to nap on his own, more or less. I lie down with him and hold him in a bear hug until he falls asleep. It's actually starting to work. He squirms a little bit, flops, rolls, pokes me in the eye, pulls on my lips, "honks" my nose, etc, but I am breathing, I am "calm," I am determined. There is no other choice, since there is no backup person. It had gotten better until today, the day of no naps. I have no idea what tomorrow will be like, but I am exhausted tonight.

He still sleeps with me at night, still wakes, but is starting to wake less frequently. Hmm... correlation? I wonder...

I have convinced dh to set up a crib next to our bed so that ds can sleep beside me in the crib (same height, side down, co-sleeper style) because I'm wondering if he just wants more room at night. (dh, ds, and I all sleep in a double bed - not even a queen!) This will, I hope, be in place when we return home this weekend.

I, too, hope and pray for a sleeper the next time around... although I'm not positive there will be a next time around just yet!!!!!!!!!


----------



## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Have solved naptime woes on a regular day. We walk into his bedroom, turn on his sleepy music, kiss and then the door closes. After 2 weeks, he will say No, mommy no then play a few minutes and then put himself to sleep! YEA I always open the doors after he's out so he feels free when he wakes up.
-Of course, Baby still naps w/me but, hey, one at a time.

Nightimes are ok. Timer reallllly helps. And, yes, DADDDDDDDDY needs to do it.
For the first time in his life, my 8mos. old went to sleep w/Daddy and slept 4 hours. Then, I came back in and nursed, he slept for 2 2hour stretches.

OMG

ok, it's night night time.

~~~~~~~~~~







vibes to all~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


----------



## Megs Mom (Mar 19, 2002)

Breathe! That's EXACTLY what I have started doing with Meg! (Almost 20 months). Took an hour the first day, half an hour the second.


----------



## Curious (Jan 4, 2002)

The Bear Hug

OK AP police, here I am, discussing this very useful tool.

Because of my back, I stopped walking Dd iin and out of the sling at about 4 months. I'd hold her in the rocker. For many naps and all bedtimes. And she wanted a SNUG hold. She'd get upset if I loosened up and let her squirm unrestricted.

I did a tarot reading, and it suggested a similarity to the tight quarters of the womb...

At about 14 months our sleep routine changed, when Dd figured out she could get down fromt he rocker and walk around. I thought she wanted more freedom when I held her, but it quickly became apparent thtat she wanted that snuggly hold. Even when she was struggling against me, it was clear that was what she wanted - this was something like Solter's Aware Baby approach...another thread.

So in the spirit of AP I was following Dd's lead, and others finding the snug hug helpful probably are too.


----------



## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

momcat and Megsmom, I thought of both you today as I held ds to sleep . . . it helped me be strong!









Re: the bear hug . . . Curious, I think your analogy may be right on. My little guy is so PHYSICAL -- there is just no way I could set him "free" to fall asleep on his own -- he wouldn't know what to do with his busy limbs!

As it was, I was lying there today (took 45 min) wondering if I should be quiet or sing, stimulate him in some way or leave him alone. He would get very still and his breathing would slow, but then he would push his feet off of my legs trying to propel himself out of my arms and then we would start over with getting him still and calm. At one point I realized that he needed soothing from me. Even though he's a thumbsucker and even tho he was in my arms, I was very aware that he needed some rhythmic and gentle touch from me. So I began stroking his head and within 2 minutes he was out.

I think I was conflicted about "helping" him to sleep, bc the whole point is to teach him to fall asleep on his own, but again, I was skipping ahead to too many steps at once. I imagine this little person may need soothing from me for many years to come, and once I thought about it, I realized I'm happy to do that for him for as long as he needs it. I mean really, what's 20 min of back rubbing compared to ANY time bouncing and pacing with him in the sling (esp when he's 4 years old!)?!?


----------



## Megs Mom (Mar 19, 2002)

We read one story lying down in bed, then I sing five lullaby-type songs (always the same songs in the same order since birth) then I rub her head or back and don't talk...it's working faster lately!


----------



## Cakes (Jul 30, 2002)

BusyMommy
How old is your eldest? I have been tempted many an afternoon to do just what you described with my 22 mos twins. Most of the time we do some form of bear hug. They have definately been improving about not needing the bear hug lately, just when they are really really tired. So in my opinion the bear hug does work
Julianne


----------



## Matadora (Jul 18, 2003)

Okay... I read through this and I started to cry.







Honestly. I have been battling the night time woes for so long and I feel like such a BAD mamma for not being all happy and chipper about it. I just posted a new thread in some ways related to this one - because once I face the struggles with getting my son to sleep I then have to deal with him having these screaming, crying, kicking, flailing jags in the middle of the night... but that is a different post!

Anyway, for you Breathe, I just wanted to tell you my story to maybe make you feel a tad bit better.









Thinking, in hindsight stupidly, that my son would eventually get the hang of going to sleep we got pg again when he was 18 months old.







It was horrible... of course minutes before conception he gives up naps and so by the time 1st trimester exhaustion sets in I am dealing with a high strung 18 month old refusing to take naps.







I will admit - I was a pretty poor mommy at times. I tried throwing fits, I tried threatening and in the end I would just fall asleep leaving my son to fend for himself. To my credit, he would stay in the same room that I was in and I eventually learned to shut the door so he COULDN'T escape - but it was horrible.

The nice thing - in this whole pregnancy transition - my DH started taking over putting my DS to sleep. It was great for awhile... I would have an hour to myself every night as my DH struggled (and came to appreciate me all the more).









I cried endlessly over this - especially because I LOVE MY SLEEP and I was TERRIFIED that the new baby would disdain sleep as much as my son.









Thank goodness that wasn't true. My daughter is now 3 months old - falls asleep within minutes and actually slept 7 hours straight last night, woke up to nurse and has been asleep for the past 2 hours (it is only 9 in the morning). The sucky thing is - she loves naps, I love naps and my son still hates them. I have a girlfriend who sagely tells me that HER son gave up naps and then started taking them again and life was good.









Well... EVERY time my son has a nap not only do we have a struggle with him going to sleep at night but we are lucky if he is asleep before midnight. Then he thrashes around so much that frankly I would rather give up my nap then deal with him during the night. I have actually been known to WAKE HIM UP if he falls asleep during the day because I would rather deal with him being fussy!! I know, I know, I am an absolutel horrible mom, but given everything else I do for him (I am a SAHM, I have a messy house - testiment to the time I spend with him, etc.)









Anyway - I caught this post and wanted to sympathize as well as give you some hope that a new baby may actually appreciate sleep. I do have to say, though, my daughter is only 3 months - who knows if she will follow in her brothers footsteps.


----------



## mamabutterfly (Jun 23, 2002)

Kay... Welcome to MDC by the way and







on your talented use of emoticons! :ROFLMAO Thanks for sharing - every child sure is different, I guess.

mb

p.s. My update -- things discussed earlier in the thread [putting off the early nap, and actually waking dd if she tries to take a late one] *have* been working lately. Knock wood!


----------



## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Thanks for sharing your story, Kay. I'm sorry to hear about the sleep-fighter in your home, too!







(they need an EXHAUSTED smiley, with bags under the eyes, don't you think?!?)

We are also having HORRIBLE nightwaking, which I haven't even broached in this thread, 'cause it just seems like too much whining all at once. But I will say that last Monday, the first day I tried the sleep-training, he did not nap, and that night he went to bed in 5 minutes and slept for 7 hours and then 4 hrs.







:

Dh and I were tempted to conclude that he should never nap, but then we remembered too many times when he missed his nap and STILL slept horribly.

I don't understand this at all. But I'm starting to tell myself that I have a special-needs child, and that his sleep difficulties are physical (he has MANY MANY food allergies and Dr. Sears always has those on his list for nightwaking). Sometimes I think labeling like that will make me feel better. Other times, it makes me feel worse!









If anyone wants to come to my pity party today . . .

Last night ds went down at 9:30. Dh and I watched a movie then went to bed at 12:30. Ds woke at 12:31 and 3:15, at which point he stayed awake, alternating between talking, whining, and SCREAMING (bs I needed dh to try to put him back to sleep) until 5:45. And then he woke up at 7:30 for the day.

I swear, some days I think this is going to be the death of me. Really, like I start to think that I may be dying.

Enough melodrama from me . . .

Hope you others are sleeping better than we are!
El


----------



## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

I am so happy to finally read people like us being honest about sleep problems vis a vis AP. I feel like I'm the only one some days who seriously questions this "drawback" (or put more mildly, "challenge").









My dd and ds were the worst sleepers for the looongest time. Imagine having to nurse both at the same time, then try to go to sleep, then one wakes up, then wakes the other one up, then back to nursing, then rocking, then repeat 5 times until they are finally asleep out of sheer exhaustion after well over two hours after they first showed signs of being tired!! Then I finally fall asleep and they wake up 2 or 3 hours later! And this process repeats 4 times a night! You don't have to imagine, you've been there.





































The best book I ever read was Weissbluth's "Healthy Sleep Habits Happy Child".














I'm glad to see others liked it too. We didn't follow to a T (e.g., he allows for letting an older baby CIO for a little bit, but we didn't do that... we kind of meshed with No Cry Sleep Sol. for ways to get them to fall asleep happily). LOVED the detailed info on the sleep/wake rhythms of well rested children.

I can honestly tell you about the light at the end of the tunnel... it took a few months but now dd and ds fall asleep ON THEIR OWN. And HAPPILY. They do not CIO. They never CIO'd. They are well rested and are like different children. Typical day: they wake at 7:00am, morning nap 9:30-10:30, afternoon nap 1:45 to 3:30, go to bed at 7:30. Of course it varies somewhat. Before you shoot me, please know it took A LOT of teaching, patience to get them there. I am also not a genius and it took Weissbluth's book to realize that the constant nursies, rockings, go-to-bed-when-you-want-even-if-that's-11pm, multiple night wakings (each!) experiences we went through needed to stop for everyone's sake.

We were "militant" at first like some of you mentioned... oops it's 7am too bad you went to bed at midnight, time to get up!







That was only needed for a few days though. No one liked that very much, but we managed to get through the short transition gently, with lots of comfort from me and fun distractions/playing.

But there are downsides. Like with all things. They are:

1.) I think my dd and ds are less flexible than babies who sleep anywhere and anytime. If we're out and about and miss their nap, they won't just happily nod off in the sling or stroller or car. They just keep getting crankier until they're exhausted and on auto pilot, but won't really fall asleep well. I'm not sure if this is a reality of what other babies do, but it seems like this is part of the promise of AP anyway.

2.) It takes a day or two when we're traveling for them to adjust to sleeping in a new bed. Since all their naps are in the same place (not whereever I happen to be, out and about). This sometimes makes for a tough adjustment day on the road.

BUT... guess what... we don't travel often and if I can't manage to time trips to the grocery store around their naps or get all of us home from visiting at a friend's house in time for a reasonable bedtime, then I got bigger problems than this! :LOL

Another thing... gulp... this is the hard one. They do not cosleep. They sleep next to each other in the same room, which adjoins our room, and we can all see each other from our beds, but we are not all in the SAME bed. A lot of this has to do with changes we made to adapt to having twins in the early months, but at the same time, I think my continued presence in the room (or same bed) would definitely keep them from falling asleep at naps, and would most likely push their bedtime to quite late in the evening (otherwise, I could sneak away after they fell asleep, but then I'd have to leave them sleeping in our bed - I'd be scared they'd roll off or something.) So I guess my point is that if you cosleep, you need to get creative about how you resolve these Q's/problems while still maintaining the family bed.

Sorry... this was long. Just glad to see everyone coming together on this and sharing / venting without sugar coating the hard realities of what it's like to have a baby / toddler go to bed at 11pm and struggle to fall asleep. Been there. I can definitely second (or third) the recommendation for Weissbluth's book. Saved our sanity.


----------



## Iguanavere (Nov 26, 2001)

nak...

our schedule has been all out of whack so all sleep has been off. i swear it is the keeping of the routine that is so critical....

about naps - i thought the same thing - that if we gave up naps ds wouldf sleep worse at night....for sleep fighters there is atransition, but after that sleep is actually better - ds sleeps all night - falls asleep within 30 minutes - itsan adjustment - but well worth it - more later...

about new babies - i screwed the pooch - there is a window of opportunity between 4 months and whew\n the can crawl to instil some good sleep by yourself habits - i missed it....more later...


----------



## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

But if you let them give up the naps, how do you get a break? We don't do TV or videos, so that's not an option for me. And I guess I'm particularly concerned about getting rest when I'm pg again . . . that was the only way I avoided being sick all day during the first trimester. Not to mention that I couldn't have NOT napped if I'd wanted to. I'll be like Matadora -- asleep while ds is not!


----------



## Iguanavere (Nov 26, 2001)

Ok - I know - the thought of not having a break during the day by way of a nap is really a scary idea. I resisted it as well. But the struggle to try to get ds to nap, doing the bear hold, causing a 45 minute tantrum, for him to only fall asleep for 45 minutes, then wake up cranky because it wasn't enough sleep and then not fall asleep easily at bedtime - well - what kind of break is that?

Once we transitioned and DS could stay awake all day - at about 5:30 we had dinner and by 7 pm, DS is *Tired* and wants to go to bed - happily marches into his bedroom. And then I have several hours to myself. A huge break - and no guilt to go with it.

I would have to say - that some day your child is going to stop napping and you will have to find other ways to get your breaks. You may have to hire a babysitter or amother's helper.

When I was pregnant and had decided the getting kicked in the gut was no longer an option at nap time (he really fought it!) what I would do is go into ds's bedroom, make the room dark, give DS some toys, turn on my hypnobirthing cd and just relax on his bed. He was welcome to cuddle with me, but that was it. I would not interact with him, except to say that it was rest time. I could usually get through my hypnobirthing CD without much fuss and I was rested.

My son was 2 years 3 months when I gave up the ghost of naps. If your child is younger, that may be too premature. For me it was the guilt that I may be permanently damaging my child by holding him down to get him to sleep.

It just wasn't worth the battle....


----------



## Megs Mom (Mar 19, 2002)

OK, I think it's a great idea, but HOW does one go about finding a mother's helper anyway?


----------



## Curious (Jan 4, 2002)

Oh yeah, nightwaking...part of the stress of bedtime...she's asleep, yea, but for how long....?

Some nights she barely moves and sleeps 10-11 hours. Other nights she's up a few minutes for a snack between 4 and 6. And nights like last night, after I stayed up to give Dh a backrub, she woke up with all sort of orders, some of which I followed "water - table" (yes you can have some water that's on the table), and some of which i deferred "pour - babysize" (please drink it out of the big glass, I don't want to pour in the dark), (cat - bow, play). And the failed negotiations: "Chair" (Chair with Dad!). "Mommymommymommychair"

That was between 4 and 6. She slept until 11 and I swore no nap today and early to bed, but she got sleepy and asked to nap, so here I am, and when I finish writing I'm going to wake her up so she isn't sleeping until bedtime!


----------



## sozobe (Aug 5, 2002)

Just wanted to agree with Iguanavere re: not napping -- dd has almost completely given up naps (well, naps maybe 20% of the time) and she goes to sleep much more easily, sleeps more soundly, and sleeps longer after a no-nap day. If you put your child to bed before you go to sleep, you can probably push back the bedtime to make up the break. (I mentioned before that we all go to sleep at the same time and I have my break in the morning.)

At any rate, I have found that she sleeps the same amount of time either way -- 9-10 hrs overnight plus a 2 hr nap, for a total of 11-12 hours, OR 11-12 hours overnight -- so you don't actually have less time, it's just redistributed.


----------



## EllasMama (Nov 20, 2001)

What gets me about the whole sleep issue is that just when I think we're onto some great improvement, kaboom, something happens that throws us back to chaos. Part of it is that we're moving in 2 weeks and life is crazy. Part is that *I* am not very good at keeping a schedule of always eating at the same time, going to bed at the same time, etc. But I swear part of it must have something to do with the way the wind is blowing a certain day. Then I feel doubly bummed b/c I thought whatever issue had been resolved. Ha! I think the common theme of having a spirited child is that just when you get optimistic and think you might be a step ahead...you find yourself behind once again, scratching your head and wondering what happened.

Here is one idea I thought was great that came from an experienced mom: I'm working on getting DD to fall asleep on her own by shortening the time I spend with her at night and at naps. So instead of lying with her till she falls asleep (after the other parts of our routine), I've been getting up while she's still awake, shortening the interval of how long I lie there. Lately
she is getting into a pattern of getting out of bed after I leave and yelling for me basically as many times as I'll come back. Not a cool habit to teach her I'll run back upstairs 6 or 8 times. So this mom suggested what she did with her daughter, which was telling her, "I'm going to leave the room now, but I'll come back in 10 minutes and check on you." Then she would always follow through, but not give in to demands for her to come back before 10 minutes. Unless it was urgent, of course. 5 minutes might be better with some kids, and of course my DD is 2.5 years old and can understand this concept fairly well - it might not be appropriate for young kids. I tried it for the first time last night, it wasn't immediately successful but I have hope it will be a good longterm tool. I think my daughter calls for me to come back b/c she feels lonely and doesn't know when/if I'll come back. Letting her know I will be back in 10 minutes and following through will take away the worry of whether I'll be back, so I think it will help once she gets used to it.

Carol


----------



## JessicaSpalding (May 24, 2003)

OMG, where have you ladies been? I thought I was the only one! I have talked to other mothers, posted a little here, but now I know that I have a SLEEP FIGHTER. Maybe she's spirited, too, I don't know what the definition is.

Don't take this the wrong way, Breathe, but I would kill for a 45 minute bedtime. It takes me (and sometime DH) 3 to 6 HOURS to get my dd to sleep. That's after dinner and after the bath. And she won't take a pacifier or her thumb, so she sucks me all night long, AND I can't leave her alone in bed at all. Not for even an hour. I get no breaks, no naps, no movies. I have been doing this for nearly a year and I am just about burned out. I really think I need to do some drastic changes.

I read all of these posts to your e-mail and I thought I was goin to cry. I know now that it won't get better, it wont' just go away. I need to make some real changes. Good to hear about the no nap days, I kept thinking that all those sleep books that talk about lack of naps making for worse sleep at night but it's not really true for DD.

I feel better. And I am also worried now.

Jessica


----------



## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Hi Jessica, and Welcome to the Sisterhood of Sleep-Deprived Mamas! I'm so sorry you're having such a rough time. That sounds REALLY difficult!

3-6 hours sounds like a problem . . . Do you want to go into more detail to see if anyone here has any ideas? Granted, we're not the most successful bunch of sleep-inducers, but you can bet your booty that we have tried it ALL!









Feel free to vent more, if needed. I hate to think of you sitting out there worrying! (altho it looks like we're in the same town, so you're actually not that far away!)


----------



## JessicaSpalding (May 24, 2003)

Hi Breathe,

I am just catching up on the whole 7 pages of the thread. It took me a while since I don't get to go online that much. I had pretty much given up MDC for advice, for similar reasons that you mentioned in an earlier post. OH, those rants against AP! My favorite thing to say to my husband is "we need to let her cry" or "I am weaning her TOMOROW".

My girl is only 11.5 months old! She can fight sleep like, well, like a toddler! Today she woke up at 8:30am, slept for 30 minutes (in a jogging stroller) and we actually got her to sleep at 7:30. My DH took over at 8:00 and was able to put her down IN BED ALONE until now (10pm). This was such a rare golden evening for me I had a glass of wine. Plus I found this thread!

I had just come to the same point about a rigid schedule maybe working. I had done all the "mistakes" that you had done. Especially sleeping late in the morning. It was hard because of the hypothyroidism (another story) but now I have more energy I need to just wake her up at the same time every d ay.

I am in Durham, where are you?


----------



## JessicaSpalding (May 24, 2003)

D'oh! I forgot I put "Durham" in my profile!


----------



## gardenmommy (Nov 23, 2001)

Is it too late for me to jump in on this thread? Because I am seriously thinking of investing in some duct tape and ear plugs (duct tape to keep my little one in bed and ear plugs so I can sleep!).

DD (now 21 mo.) has always been so easy to get to sleep. Right from birth she went down every night by 9:30, slept about 4 or 5 hours, nursed, slept 3 hours, nursed, etc. until waking for good around 8 am.

Now, she's decided that sleep is anathema. Why sleep when you can nurse every hour all night long? Why go to sleep when it's so much more fun to play with mom and dad? However, DH and I are exhausted, and cannot deal with her antics.

I am so tired at the end of the day, I cannot deal with all of her wiggling, squirming, sleep-fighting toddlerness. She nurses more now during the night, and is so much harder to get to sleep than she ever was as a newborn.

I decided to nightwean in hopes that that would help her sleep through better, and tried putting her in her own bed at the beginning of the night. Dh even slept alone with her for 3 nights. She slept through, so dh wanted me to come sleep with them again. The fourth night was terrible. All she wanted was to sleep on top of me, nurse, and cry all night long.

I love my dd, but I am really at the end of my rope with her sleep issues. Tonight, I'm trying something different. She is sleeping in ds's room; he's on the top bunk, she's on the bottom. I'm across the hall with the baby monitor. We'll see how this arrangement works.

I think this is a little disjointed, it's late, and I'm really tired.


----------



## nuggetsmom (Aug 7, 2002)

I tried the "shall I check on you in a few minutes" thing and it WORKED






















DD (25 mo) says yes, then calls in daddy if he is home and tells him to get out and come chek on her in afew minutes and it is so cool. I though she would get out of bed, but no.
no crying, no tossing and turning, WOW. I hope it lasts...

And Jessica, I have no advice, just sympathy.
gardenmommy, check out Dr Gordons nightweaning technique. Search google for Dr gordon. Some have had good luck with that.

At christmas we are going to buy DD the coolest kid bed ever and see if she wants to sleep in it in her room.


----------



## chevy974 (Jan 6, 2002)

Well i have been reading this thread for 30 min lol.







And i must say its nice to know i am not hte only mommy who is getting her but kicked trying to put a toodler to bed.

My dd who will be 3 in Dec still doesnt sleep all night and its HELL to get her to sleep. SHe still wants to nurse all night and i notice if i let her nurse to sleep she is up ever couple hours. If i let her fuss kick scream smack bite and finally i leave the room she sleeps better. I have 4 children and i took all them from the time they were babies put them in bed and they slept. I decided I liked AP parenting and for all aspects it seems great but the sleeping just isnt getting it. Dh is finally resulting to sleeping on the couch cause of the kicking issue and tossing and screaming NO NO at thin air.

Nap time she wakes up screaming and wil scream for a 1/2 hour kicking screaming throwing a fit. She has always been what some tell me is a HIgh spirited child. I thik she is in HIGH need of a good spanking lol or atleast thats what my old fashioned mother tells me.







: SHe is down right mean to her siblings and everything has to go her way or we get the GOD wrenching screamming







So it seems alot of the time she gets what she wants so she will just shut up. I like most of you are at my WITS ends and ready to start drinking heavily







. I just plain o ut dont know what to do or how to handle the tantrums the kicking etc but it helped to know i wasnt alone. But my big question is how do i handle a 3 yr old with a BAD attitude how do we undo what we have done


----------



## Breathe (May 18, 2002)

Hey Mamas,

I'm sitting here laughing at myself (it's better than pulling my hair out!) because we are back to sleep troubles and I had this vague recollection of there being a time in our life when I *thought* we had things figured out . . . so I resurrected this thread and YEP! Sure enough, there WAS a time in our life when I thought it was all figured out!

:LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL

How sad is it that I had to come back to a post from last summer to get good ideas about bedtime -- GOOD IDEAS THAT I HAD ALREADY USED, NO LESS!!!

I declare that I really and truly have lost a big chunk of my brain.

In any case, all these months later, ds is now 27 1/2 months, still being put to sleep in the sling for naps, and still taking up to 75 minutes to fall asleep at night. My house is falling down around me bc dh and I are too damn tired to do any housework after the bedtime marathon.

So there you go. Over two years of motherhood and I've learned really very little other than to be humble, humble, humble.

I hope some of you out there are faring better. Or at least coping as well as possible!









Breathing Deeply,
E.


----------



## Shanghaimum (Jan 4, 2002)

I am right there with you.... and I hate it. Ds, who is also 27.5 months old, has totally 'regressed' when it comes to sleep. For awhile, a glorious 6 weeks, he was actually going to bed without a fight. Dh would go and lie with him and after about 25-30 minutes he would be asleep and actually sleep all night alone. Now we are back to fighting naps, bedtime takes at least an hour and Dh is back sleeping with him and he is still waking 3-4 times a night.....

Will it ever get better????

But... on the positive side, dd, who is 4 months old, doesn't fight sleep and usually only wakes 1-2 times a night!!!

Emma


----------



## kyliew (Jan 3, 2004)

Yep, I'm with you both.

My DD is 23 months old and I'd just love her to goto bed one night before midnight. She starts getting tired at about 8-9pm, but she just refuses sleep. She screams, she kicks, she throws big tantrums, and in the mean time I have a 5 month old who happily goes to sleep at 8:30pm and will sleep till 6am. So I spend my whole time trying to get DD to be quiet and goto sleep so she doesn't wake my baby!!

It can't get any worse, only better, right?


----------



## momcat (Aug 9, 2002)

I am definitely not even THINKING about having another child until ds figures out the sleep thing FOR GOOD. That might mean we wait until he's 15.

Right around his 2nd b'day (he's now 26 mos) he figured out how to sleep through the night and I was ecstatic! Now, however, we're trying to get him into his own bed (still in our room) and we're back to square one. Amazingly, when he is at day care, he not only goes to sleep by himself, but he doesn't use any comfort items to do it, either. AND he sleeps for two hours without waking. What the heck am I doing wrong?! I think there's definitely some sort of positive peer pressure, since the other 2 kids also nap around the same time. Our DCP is very AP, too, so I know she didn't train him to do this via any sort of CIO method.

Hugs, Breathe - I wish I had some words of wisdom, but... well, at least you have my sympathy!


----------



## sparkeze (Nov 20, 2002)

Wow, I've just spent an hour reading this thread (with a booby-call in there too!) and I need to park here for awhile!

My DS is 21 mo, never been a good sleeper since he was born. I walked and bounced him in a sling until he was about 15 mo for naps and at bedtime. At that point I just couldn't take it anymore so I resigned myself to nursing him to sleep in bed for 2 hrs + for naps and bedtime. It's torture!! He switches back and forth from one side to the other crawling around my body until he rests on top of my head, all while attached to the nipple, and then he gets up and jumps on the bed, climbs off the bed to play with everything and anything available (he gets very creative at this point







: ) and then when I go bring him back to the bed the cycle continues until I wake up and find he fell asleep. I have become sleep-deprived because I crave a few hours alone after DS falls asleep but that means I don't get enough sleep. One plus is that once he's asleep, he generally wakes up about every 2-4 hours, nurses briefly and rolls over and goes back to sleep. That is a major improvement from a year ago...

One thing I've noticed about my DS is that he falls asleep best when he's truly exhausted. That takes a lot though because he's normally very very very active and especially in this below zero weather it's hard to get out much. If I don't put him to sleep for a nap, he doesn't sleep. But I can tell he's really tired and he needs a nap. But if doesn't nap he will usually fall asleep by 8 sometimes 7!







). Am I sleep-depriving him if I just skip the nap and let him stay up? Many days I try for 20 min and if he doesn't look like he's going to fall asleep anytime soon I just give up. It's too frustrating to try to get him to fall asleep for 2 hours only to get all irritated at him because he won't fall asleep.
















I'm so glad I found this thread!


----------



## Matadora (Jul 18, 2003)

Hi, I just had to jump in and say I'm glad this post was reopened too!

Sparkeze: I had thought that my son HAD to have a nap, but he gave them up when he was 18 months and except for the occasional day where he has worn himself out they are a ghing of the past! I don't think you are sleep depriving your child - although my Mom wouldn't agree. My son now goes to bed sometime between 7:30 and 9 (still varies, but I am okay with that) earlier on days he was incredibly active and later on days that were much more lazy. With 9 degree weather here in Michigan and 15 below wind chill we are housebound and consequently night time is a bit later.

As for it getting better... right now we are in a good sleep phase with my son= he will be 3 in less than a week. Most nights he is asleep within 30 minutes of our lying down, which includes reading several books. I have found that the nights I desperately want him to sleep are the nights he refuses, so I have decided to just let whatever happens happen and for some reason that reduces the stress 

As for my 8 month old... she fights sleep during the day so much - she is crawling and pulling up and wanting to be a part of everything and so she really doesn't want to sleep. However, by the time she goes to bed at night she is so exhausted that she sleeps for 12 hours straight. Then she takes a 2 hour nap in the afternoon. I'm not going to stress, it's not like she doesn't have the opportunity.

One last note - my brother swears that children who require less sleep are more inquisitive and thereby more intelligent than those who are content to sleep all the time and on a schedule (this is not meant to offend anyone, just to make those of us who are struggling with sleepless children feel better about things). BTW... his son is 23, scored a perfect score on his SAT's and has a full fellowship to Colombia. His daughter is 20, scored a nearly perfect score on her SAT's and is on a full scholarship to a private school here in Michigan. Wouldn't it be nice if he were right?


----------



## JessicaSpalding (May 24, 2003)

Oh Lordy.

Yeah, we are still having sleep issues. She's going to sleep faster and deeper than ever (dd is 15 mo) but she has been waking up for "bowba" every hour or two. And it takes me a while to go to sleep, so just as I am drifting off, she wakes up.









So DH has been putting her down and sleepingwith DD in the living room on a futon. She doesn't wake up nearly as often and he is able to get her back to sleep. BUt I miss her alot!

Well, at least I know that it can still change for the worse. Did you mamas out there that are having tough problems with 23-27 mo olds have problems this early? She has been really hard ever since she was born, but she does seem to be getting better. At least she doesn't take 3 HOURS anymore!

good luck everyone,

Jessica


----------



## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Breathe said:


> *If you are in a space right now where you LOVE bedtime and appreciate holding and rocking and singing your child to sleep for hours on end because this is such a special time in your life, please don't tell me. I can't take it.*
> 
> I never enjoyed this after like week three
> 
> ...


----------



## MikaelaB (Feb 20, 2014)

OMG, I am just googling "I HATE BEDTIME WITH TODDLER"... saw your post. I am currently about ready to lose my mind. My 31/2 year old WILL NOT SLEEP. NEVER HAS!!!! From day one, it has been an issue and it never gets better. It only gets worse and I know, IVE TRIED EVERYTHING. I get to the point where my blood is boiling. I honestly think my blood pressure sky rockets. I don't want it to be a horrible experience every night. I go into it every time with an awareness of how it gets, I try to stay calm and serene and roll with it. Know going into it that it will be hours before Im out of that room with a toddler sleeping in it, and EVERY night, it gets to the point where sometimes I end up yelling. Most nights I end up walking out.... which just makes things worse. OH, and did I mention this is all amplified x100 because I have a two year old, who is a total dream sleeper, who shares a room with my 3 year old, who is just trying to get to sleep among all this talking, and crying and whining.... ugh, I cant stand it. The only thing that works is if I let her sleep in my bed. She goes right to sleep that way. But mostly, the only thing that keeps me from letting her LIVE in my bed if it makes her go to sleep at night, is I feel like it is unfair to her sister. And Im not about to let two littles sleep in my bed before I even get a chance to get in it. (They both join me in the middle of the night and I let them sleep in there, they end up getting the pillows and I lay horizontally at the foot of the bed) As you can see, I have one heck of a problem here. Had to vent also. And by the way, I LOVE my daughter(s)..... Just HATE BEDTIME!!!!!!!!!


----------

