# am I evil for secretly being glad that CIO isn't working for my friends?



## cotopaxi (Sep 17, 2007)

I'm in a close-knit listserv -- we "met" on an online message board when pregnant. I love all the mamas. Everyone is very different in their parenting approaches and lifestyles in general, but SO respectful of each other. Out of the 20 of us, I'd say about half have already started CIO sleep training with their 4 or 5-month olds.







A few were blessed with kiddos who sleep through the night or with only one quick waking to eat all of their own accord. And there were 3 of us who have frequent wakers but who were kind of AP and trying to just go with it.

So we get a post Monday from one of the AP-ish ones that she's Ferberizing and it's going great. I can't believe how upset it made me. I felt so alone, so jealous that she was getting some sleep, doubting my choices, etc. Then we get a post today that oops, baby screamed half the night -- "what happened; I thought it was working, etc." And I'm secretely happy! Am I awful?









Seriously, though, the responses made me feel even better. Everyone was like, oh yeah, there are regressions, and then if they're sick or teething you have to start all over, etc... I feel so much better -- people make it seem like you have "just" 2-3 nights of crying and then good sleep for the rest of your life, but sounds like that's just not so!

I do feel guilty for being a little happy though! I love this mama and I want her and her baby to be happy and well-rested!!


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## sugarlumpkin (Dec 20, 2006)

I think I understand what you're saying...but you must admit it sounds a little cold (I know you don't mean it that way!).

I think maybe your jealousy about sleep is what is driving your secret glee? Or maybe the fact that you disagree so much with those choices makes you pleased that they fail? I know I am pleased when people make stupid choices (or choices I disagree with), then they fail, and I get to say (or to think







) "I told you so...."







:

I get what you're saying and I don't think you're evil.


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## Hallielynn01 (Sep 18, 2007)

I don't think your evil. Parenting, while we all try to be supportive of each other and our choices, I believe those of us who live an AP lifestyle with our children, do so because we believe and feel its the right and healthiest choice. And while I personally wouldn't tell someone they are being a bad parent or something of that nature because they use CIO, but I might feel the same as you if I heard it wasn't going well. for jealous reasons (I think my body actually wakes after 3 hours of sleep now, even if I don't need to get up!!) but also because I get a secret pleasure out of seeing those methods not work







Don't fret, your just being honest!


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

You can't help how you feel, but it's not very charitable of you, as I'm sure you know







I don't wish bad sleep on anyone. Not only that, but if they're doing CIO anyway isn't it better if it works so the baby doesn't have to cry for weeks on end? Just a different perspective


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## cotopaxi (Sep 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SublimeBirthGirl* 
if they're doing CIO anyway isn't it better if it works so the baby doesn't have to cry for weeks on end?

exactly! that's half the reason I feel so bad... about feeling good...









now, you know I'd never EVER say anything negative to my friend!
I'm keeping it all in... that's why I had to come let it out here.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I don't even KNOW these people you're talking about and I'm glad that CIO isn't working for them! This means that they'll hopefully end up using something more gentle for their baby, right?


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## cotopaxi (Sep 17, 2007)

Well, that's the thing -- I'm half-glad it's not working, thinking maybe they'll see that it's not such an easy way out and go back to APing... but then, as PP noted, maybe it just means that poor baby will be crying a whole lot for weeks on end. When she wrote in that it was a disaster the previous night, the rest of the CIO gang wrote back that she just needs to stick it out, that regressions are normal, etc.

But mainly I'm half-glad about it as an affirmation that my choice has been right, which I know is awful of me! What someone else does or doesn't do has nothing to do with my parenting choices. It's just so hard to stay strong when everyone I know in real life has been saying "okay, this has gone on too long -- you'll never manage without more sleep -- it's time to let her cry" and then my one online "friend" who was doing things the same way as me was suddenly ferberizing and reporting long hours of sleep! I was really questioning myself last night, and then this morning I log on and find that it wasn't a magical solution... it seemed like a sign!


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## ktbug (Jul 8, 2006)

Honestly, I'm surprised and suspicious when I hear anyone tell me it "worked".
I have deep skepticism about whether it actually "works" at all - it kind of sounds like the practitioners just resign themselves to letting their babies scream themselves to sleep over a protracted period of time. Sure, some nights it's not so bad, but then the whole "start over whenever they're sick or teething" - it just kind of seems like it's about a year-long process of leaving a child in a room by themselves to cry. I have serious doubts that it ever goes the way it's supposed to go, where the kid puts him/herself to sleep on their own after a week or so of the screaming.

So ... I dunno, I have my schadenfreude moments when I hear that some tactic a parent takes that I don't agree with isn't working, but in the end it's just worse for the baby if those parents insist on trying to make CIO "work".


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

no, i don't think you're evil. if CIO worked really well, it would be harder to resist, at least for me. so while you are probably not glad that poor baby was up crying half the night, you may be glad that you're not taking the ridiculously difficult path, so i totally know what you mean.

still feel sorry for that CIO baby







:

i have a friend who CIO'd recently, but her son was 16 months old. i don't think that's good or anything, so don't get me wrong--but it was more of a "last resort" and less of a, "well, DC is 4 (or 5 or 6) months now! time to ferberize!" she did NCSS and all that for a long time before resorting to CIO.

i feel like i can't judge a mama of a babe that age since i have never BTDT, but i definitely judge mamas of babies my age who are CIO.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

I totally hear what you're saying, Angela. It's so hard to imagine doing that to a tiny little 4 month old...they almost seem like a newborn to me!

But, a 16mo is still just a wee babe. My youngest is 17mos now and he's going through some pretty crazy separation stuff with me so he needs me a lot..all the time! Fortunately, he has my dh at night now and they sleep great together (I still nurse 1xnight) but he needs me a lot for naps still. I just can't imagine leaving him alone...he would feel completely abandoned. It doesn't really change that much in the first few years, I don't think. Once they're more verbal, I think it gets so much easier, though.

Sorry to hijack the thread!


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## landon'smom (Oct 11, 2007)

What is AP?


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## thefragile7393 (Jun 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *landon'smom* 
What is AP?

Attachment Parenting.

I find it not amusing...well okay sort of, but more ironic...with my friends who live and swear by this, that their children are still having night waking....kids under 3. So to me it's a huge DUH but....agian, my mouth is shut.


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Germans have a word for that feeling--Schadenfreude


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

i think its worse for cio to not work........the poor baby has to cry more and be ignored more. I would rather a family try and it works the first day, that way the child hasnt gone through so much trauma


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## ShareBear (Sep 14, 2007)

I would hesitate to use the argument that CIO is a bad idea because it doesn't work. Sometimes it DOES "work" the way it's supposed to. It "worked" beautifully with my older son when he was 9 months old. (Poor little guy, I didn't know what else to do at the time.)

That said, I would never do it again because I've come to the conclusion that even if it does "work" in the sense that it gets your kid to sleep, it's just too traumatic, damages the trust that the child has in the parent, goes totally contrary to mama instincts (which I really think we should trust), etc. etc.

I do think that Ferberizing is especially dangerous when the parents are committed to it at all costs even when it doesn't "work" the way it's supposed to. I had friends tell me that their little girl cried herself to sleep every night for A YEAR!!! Up to twenty minutes every night. Now, at the age of two, she sleeps beautifully, but was it worth the price? Yikes!


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## AoifesMom (Sep 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ktbug* 
Honestly, I'm surprised and suspicious when I hear anyone tell me it "worked".
I have deep skepticism about whether it actually "works" at all - it kind of sounds like the practitioners just resign themselves to letting their babies scream themselves to sleep over a protracted period of time.











I don't think you are evil at all. Everyone enjoys an " I told you so" moment, even if it is just in your head.


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## MilkTrance (Jul 21, 2007)

Yeah, I get ya. It's not right but sometimes I feel it too.


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## pixilixi (Jun 20, 2006)

If you are evil, so am I... I think mostly I am jealous that other moms get so much sleep and even more importantly, that they take it for granted that they will have so much uninterrupted time to themselves.

I try not to listen when they complain that their toddler woke up at 5am (after 10 hours sleeping straight) etc.

I agree, it's totally schadenfreude. We all have thoughts we are not proud of, this is one of mine.


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## cotopaxi (Sep 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swampangel* 
It's so hard to imagine doing that to a tiny little 4 month old...they almost seem like a newborn to me!

I know! When did 4 months old become the standard age for starting Ferber anyway? I really could have sworn that it used to be more like 6-8 months before people would even think about doing it, but both people I know online and my friends IRL are starting at 4 now. Before I knew anything about AP -- I used to nanny / babysit / etc. tons and would read tons of parenting books and magazines, and pondered a lot on the families I got to observe, I always thought I would do sleep training if my kids weren't sleeping well by 8-9 months... it would have shocked me to see anyone doing it at 4 months.


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## cheygirl (Jun 13, 2006)

I get it. I totally get jealous of parents who say that their CIO'ed babes now sleep through the night. So when I'm hearing that it didn't work for them, it's maybe a bit of schadenfreude but it's also sort of a little reminder to me that CIO isn't some magical solution that grants parents a full night's sleep. In other words, no need to get jealous about it. It sucks for their babies though.


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## amj'smommy (Feb 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wonderwahine* 
i think its worse for cio to not work........the poor baby has to cry more and be ignored more. I would rather a family try and it works the first day, that way the child hasnt gone through so much trauma

This is how I feel also..... I am in no way shape or form wanting anyone to do CIO but I just hope that if they do it does work the first time and quickly but sadly I know this most likely isn't true in most cases


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## ar2974 (Nov 19, 2006)

I really, really, really wish it worked for my friend. She started it almost a year ago when her dd was about 5 or 6 months old. At the time she used to constantly tell me that I'd "have to do it" etc. (she was the expert apparantly because her dd is 2 1/2 months older than mine).
A year on and her dd is still crying so much - somedays naps are just 2 hours in the crib crying. She cries every night - anywhere from 1-4 hours.
I've suggested so many other things but she or the nanny try them for a bit and then say they don't work or that there isn't enough time. They seem to have sort of accepted that her dd is going to cry for 1-3 hours a day.


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## Muminmamman (Jul 28, 2007)

My ds cried for 15 minutes last night (as I frantically tried various get-him-to-sleep remedies...bouncy ball won the show







) and I was literally dizzy. I was exhausted. My blood pressure and heart rate were soaring! Even if people feel it is the right thing to do with their babes, how the heck to they handle it? I don't think I could EVER desensitize myself to that.


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## mammy bear (Oct 14, 2007)

I just don't understand how anyone can leave their bub to cry and think that it's O.K. It really puzzles me ...so yeah, I feel the same as you when CIO doesn't work for someone. It's not so much a feeling of taking pleasure but more a reminder to me that I'm doing the right thing.


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## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ar2974* 
I really, really, really wish it worked for my friend. She started it almost a year ago when her dd was about 5 or 6 months old. At the time she used to constantly tell me that I'd "have to do it" etc. (she was the expert apparantly because her dd is 2 1/2 months older than mine).
A year on and her dd is still crying so much - somedays naps are just 2 hours in the crib crying. She cries every night - anywhere from 1-4 hours.
I've suggested so many other things but she or the nanny try them for a bit and then say they don't work or that there isn't enough time. They seem to have sort of accepted that her dd is going to cry for 1-3 hours a day.

that is just so...cruel.

isn't the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?








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## tarahsolazy (Jan 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cotopaxi* 
I know! When did 4 months old become the standard age for starting Ferber anyway?

Weissbluth, the author of Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child, is the one who recommends starting at around 4 months. He's also the extinction-method guy, shut the door and don't go back til morning.

He's also the misogynistic one who seems to think that all young babies who don't sleep for prolonged periods, or out of arms, do so because:
1. Mom is a SAHM and won't put baby down
2. Mom is a WOHM who selfishly keeps her kids up late so she can play with them.


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## babylove2007 (Mar 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cotopaxi* 
I know! When did 4 months old become the standard age for starting Ferber anyway? I really could have sworn that it used to be more like 6-8 months before people would even think about doing it, but both people I know online and my friends IRL are starting at 4 now. Before I knew anything about AP -- I used to nanny / babysit / etc. tons and would read tons of parenting books and magazines, and pondered a lot on the families I got to observe, I always thought I would do sleep training if my kids weren't sleeping well by 8-9 months... it would have shocked me to see anyone doing it at 4 months.

My sister started sleep training at 6 weeks.







: They wanted her to sleep through the night by 3 months. They also used Babywise and started strict feeding schedules. They "wanted her to be trained for day care, where everything is on schedule not on cue."







:


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## Herausgeber (Apr 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *babylove2007* 
My sister started sleep training at 6 weeks.







: They wanted her to sleep through the night by 3 months. They also used Babywise and started strict feeding schedules. They "wanted her to be trained for day care, where everything is on schedule not on cue."







:

But plenty of daycares do things on cue ...

I got to hear the virtues of Weissbluth this weekend at work, as I was showing another working mom the pumping room. Apparantly he's great because he "gives you the option" of going to child when they cry at night. Um, thanks, Dr. Weissbluth, now get the f*** out of my way.


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## cotopaxi (Sep 17, 2007)

Quote:

A year on and her dd is still crying so much - somedays naps are just 2 hours in the crib crying. She cries every night - anywhere from 1-4 hours.








:







:







:
Oh, that's horrible. You'd think that even if someone thought CIO was a good idea to try, that at some point they'd realize that it's not working with that much crying, for so many months!

Quote:

My sister started sleep training at 6 weeks.







:








: is right! is that even safe to allow them to go long periods without eating at that age??

Quote:

Weissbluth, the author of Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child, is the one who recommends starting at around 4 months. He's also the extinction-method guy, shut the door and don't go back til morning.
Oh yeah... I read that one (not knowing what it was)... in one of the case studies the mom was going on about how she has decided she shouldn't feel guilty for doing whatever gives her pleasure, which in her case was smoking a pack a day. While breastfeeding. Poor baby was probably jittery on nicotine, no wonder he wasn't sleeping! This was a copy from the library so probably outdated, but still... yikes.

Quote:

I feel the same as you when CIO doesn't work for someone. It's not so much a feeling of taking pleasure but more a reminder to me that I'm doing the right thing.
That's a good way to phrase it. I think that's more what I'm feeling... I wish these people all the best; she's actually my "favorite" mama of the group. And BTW, a week later, it seems to be "working" again for them... but I'm feeling better about things too. You guys are very helpful and affirming. Thank you!


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## babylove2007 (Mar 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cotopaxi* 







: is right! is that even safe to allow them to go long periods without eating at that age??


I think she still woke up to nurse at night, but she was just expected to cry it out a bit in order to fall asleep. When she was older, they used to let her cry between feedings too to keep her "on schedule." If she got hungry 45 min before "time to eat," she would have to wait. I'm not sure how much crying "waiting" involved; with my son it would involve shrieking so I hope not.







:


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