# Once my 5 year old loses it, I can't get things back under control



## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

How do you rein things in before they get out of control? DD just freaked out for about 20 minutes because I would not get her a black permanent marker to draw with. She just screams in my face over and over "I want a black marker!!!!I want a black marker!!!!!!ARRRRRRGGGGGGG!!" and fake cries as well.

We went through 3 alternative markers, I marched her into her room 2 x and she came back out 2 x just to melt down again because she couldn't let it go. I just put her back in her room for the third time and I keep telling her that we "don'ts scream and cry to get what we want." which is what I think she does. She just screams louder and louder in my face and it is SO HARD for me not to really lose my temper.

I feel like 5 is big for this. Maybe she is just immature. I am very nice in the beginning, when I have to explain that we don't have/she can't have something that she wants. I get less nice the longer she screams in my face.

I have been really on her diet the last few weeks, making sure it is low sugar and high in protein and good fats and that seems to really help but I can't get her to eat once she melts down like this, and she had just had some cheese shortly before the meltdown.

My mom yelled at me and was very scary on occasion--I don't want to be like that, but I just can't get her to calm down and listen, and I can't get her to leave me alone either. I would appreciate any advice in how to get over this because I hate it.

PS-in the time that I wrote this she came back out of her room and is now happily working on her project using glitter glue instead. All sunshine and light now.


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## jamiew (Oct 3, 2007)

My 3.5 y.o. girl is like this. Food is definitely a trigger for her. If her blood sugar gets low, and something sets her off, it's "goodbye senses". There's no talking to her, there's nothing we can do. If we try to pick her up, she tries to rip our eyes out! She shrieks and screams like crazy. After a while, she calms down and is, like you said Sunshine and Light.

For us, she's had these kinds of screaming episodes since she was a little baby. It's really hard not to yell back, or hold her tight when she hits (to hold her arms or legs so she doesn't keep hitting/kicking). We just try to talk to her, but most times it does no good, we just have to wait for it to pass. So she'll writhe around on the floor and scream scream scream, or come and hit us.

We try the "just lay on your bed for a little bit until you calm down" but then she thinks we're giving her a time out and she hates that. Such a strong-willed little thing!

I also don't want to be like my mom, I can remember her being mad at us, and I _really_ don' t want to be that way with my sweet little girl! [takes deep breath]


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

My almost 5 year old is going through an emotionally fragile phase right now. She gets upset easier and more intensely lately. The anger part is already getting a bit better. We usually just talk very quietly, getting quieter when she gets louder. We still sympathize that she's angry or sad, but I have said "it's ok to be angry but it's not ok to act mean because you're angry". I also suggest that my DD might want to go to her room until she's calmer. Sometimes she goes off by herself when she's angry, on her own. We've never 'made' her do anything for being angry or 'sent' her to her room.

It's probably just a phase with your DD too. Kids seem to go through periods of being more emotional at least once a year. This time last year it was a spurt of independence and then a couple of months of bossiness. It's probably from hormonal and brain chemistry changes that occur as children develop.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

I don't know--she was a very, very easy baby and then as soon as she turned 3 she started having major tantrums and I feel like two years later I still have not figured out how best to handle them. It is really almost impossible for me to stay calm and speak gently to her during them--I can take it for the first five minutes and then I just melt down too. And I'm sure that's just fuel for the fire, but I just don't know how to stop it all. I went outside to walk the dog today, to just walk away from it and not engage, and she came out and screamed in the driveway.


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## Sheryl1678 (Sep 15, 2006)

I don't have advice but I am happy to see that other parents go through the same thing. My 5 yo still loses it regularly. I also think its a blood sugar issue but it used to be compounded by chronic sleep problems.

I still don't know how to handle it to "make it go away" other than waiting it out and not freaking back on her.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Have you read Kids, Parents and Power Struggles by Mary Kurcinka? I find her books really useful. I've read her Raising Your Spirited Child too. If you've been going through 2 years of tantrums without discovering how to help your DD work through them maybe you need a different approach. The book is focuses on temperament and also getting at the real underlying emotional causes of conflict and misbehavior. Both books really helped me understand my child. I've found the books at two libraries.

One small thing that helps me is to remember not to take misbehavior personally, not to let behavior that is normal annoy me too much. It's so much easier to not let normal baby behavior annoy us than it is to not let normal toddler and child behavior annoy us.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

I read the Kurcinka Power Struggles book and my biggest take home was that she is very process oriented--we have a much smoother time if I tell her mid-task "we're leaving in a bit so what do you need to do to finish your project?" and then help her. There was a bit of that going on yesterday--she was working on a project for her dad (a green glitter glue heart stuck to constructon paper for his office) and she needed black permanent marker. I didn't have one and no subs are acceptable.

What else did you get out of the Kurcinka? I do feel like I've been doing the same things for two years and it's not helping. It's like her cue of "I've gone too far!" is so far beyond what I can handle, if that makes sense. I'm not sure this is normal behavior at five.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

My opinion on tantrums is that they have them until they've learned a few things through them, largely two things: unconditional love, and futility. At 5, I'm guessing she knows that people keep loving pepole while they're angry (which is a more complex idea than it appears on the surface), but I would try to remain empathatic and loving through her tantrums anyway. It's scary for kids who don't know that because when they're angry, they aren't actively feeling loving, and they don't necessarily understand that they really do still love us when they feel so upset. Again, at 5, that might very well not be the problem, which is probably why a lot of kids stop having tantrums before that age. But the other half is that she needs to learn the concept of futility, that some things don't go how we'd like them to go regardless of how much we wish they would, regardless of how much we fuss, regardless of how much our parents wish they would. So really all you can do is wait out the tantrum, empathize with her (I wish black permament black markers were OK to draw with) and then give her love when she's done with her tantrum and help her see that everything is OK even when you don't get the black marker you want. Trying to find other markers or fix the problem doesn't help her if the issue is that she hasn't learned that some things are futile and not fixable. Not all kids are finished with tantrums at 3 or 4. 5 is within the realm of normal.


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
she had just had some cheese shortly before the meltdown.

Although this behavior can be normal, I do know a child who goes into incredible rages when eating dairy products, gluten, or other allergens.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

No advice but a LOT of sympathy. I too had an fairly easy baby and a nightmare time ages 3-5. It got a little better for awhile, but at 7.5 it's now really bad for us. I'm reading The Explosive Child right now and I think she has a lot of inflexible-explosive traits. Am ready to call a child psychologist or play therapist. My child just does not switch gears or transition well at all.

Anyway, the book is helping me see that she might not necessarily be well in control of things by the time it escalates to tantrum and no amount of punishment/reward will change that. Author makes a comparison that to being playing professional basketball. Like even if he got the salary (reward) that wouldn't make him capable of playing at that level.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Thanks for all the replies.

Part of me feels like she just needs to make a jump in maturity but the other part of me worries if I don't get through to her somehow this will just get worse. Ellien, does the Explosive Child give you any advice on how to get through the tantrum or not so much? My patience just feels depleted at this point and there are days when I just start yelling back and I know that's just dumb.

Mamazee, I think you are right that she needs to understand futility. Her BFF gets it. Whenever they play together she'll say "You get what you get and you don't get upset!" and then they both laugh.


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## Hokulele (Mar 2, 2005)

My 5 yo is the exact same way. I don't see any other 5yos acting this way so I worry about it. I'm glad you posted this.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
Ellien, does the Explosive Child give you any advice on how to get through the tantrum or not so much? My patience just feels depleted at this point and there are days when I just start yelling back and I know that's just dumb.

I'm only through the first 4-5 chapters, but I think it's long on prevention rather than what to do during.

I SO understand. I feel SO triggered when she starts screaming and melting down. Like I've created a monster and what will she be like as a teenager. The noise level and the screaming just prevents ME from thinking clearly about what to do. Then I get angered and I'm essentially melting down. It's like I can hold it together for a little while, but not as her tantrum escalates.

What I can say about the book is it advocated that these kinds of kids ALREADY know the tantrum is futile and they are ALREADY motivated not to have them, but lack "executive functioning" in figuring out what to do in the midst of frustration. So rewards/punishments (additional motivation) aren't helpful in these kinds of children. If they could do better, they WOULD be doing better, but this is all they got at the moment.

At least I can reframe the problem instead of feeling like I've created a monster who will only get worse. I don't know - I'm at the point now where I feel like it's my fault for being too lenient and giving her too many choices but the book author really sees it differently. My child IS hard to transition, and she can get fixated on an idea and she does have the beginnings of some other obsessions (saves EVERYTHING - gum wrappers, paper scraps, toy packaging, and wants to bring a LOT of things with her to school or anywhere else).


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

My DH seems better able to defuse the tantrums than I can. He tells her to take deep breaths and TALK to him. I never remember to do that, because I am too reactionary.

Ok, that is what I am going to try this afternoon (she's been melting down after school pretty regularly). I am going to ask her to breathe and try to figure out a solution together to whatever comes up.

Wish me luck.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

good luck. My DH is better with her than I am, too, during a tantrum. I think he can muster a LOT more empathy than me.


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## cotopaxi (Sep 17, 2007)

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## mom2grrls (Jul 24, 2008)

I feel like 5 is big for this. Maybe she is just immature. I am very nice in the beginning, when I have to explain that we don't have/she can't have something that she wants. I get less nice the longer she screams in my face. >>>>

It sounds like the problem is you don't like her reaction. Even at 5 kids can still lose it sometimes even as they get older too. If you can't keep calm when she screams in your face than move. Tell her you'll be back after you've done some "time out" for yourself. Remind yourself she is not out to get you and needs love and help even when she's tantruming-it's hard but well worth it in the end.


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## sraplayas (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks to all of the mamas who have written here-it is so helpful just to know that others are dealing with similar issues.

DD is 5.5 and she does tantrum as well. If it isn't the tantruming, it is sassiness or hitting her brother (20months). Now _h_e has taken to hitting, which is so heartbreaking to me at this age but he sees it so I think it's normal. Our standard "We don't hit/No hit, Give love" is repeated many times a day now with both children!

I have been concerned with DD's aggressive disrespectfulnes in the home. Our values as a family are: Love, Respect, Teamwork, Order and Freedom. We try to be really intentional with her by having a good structure at home (not rigid, but something she can plan on), good nutrition, fresh air, etc. I really need to have more empathy with her when she does these behaviors b/c I feel so frustrated and beaten down that I just want to walk away and know that she needs attention at that point!

Also, we have recently found out that DS has several food allergies so we will be getting DD tested within the year. We want to rule that out so we can focus on what is true.

Thanks again for all of your good thoughts! I am savoring an hour in a _quiet house_ and it is wonderful!!!!

sraplayas


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## staceychev (Mar 5, 2005)

Seriously, Heather, we've got parallel families... just add the infant to ours. Do you think she's tired from kindy? I know that it's been a tough adjustment for us (thus, no return email from me this past week!), and even though Lu says she's not tired, I know she is. And, yes, DH is a better tantrum defuser than I am.

I don't know what to say. Just commiseration.


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## Just1More (Jun 19, 2008)

My 5yo doesn't tantrum. I say that not to give my suggestion more weight, but to explain that my situation is different. I do know that when she gets tired, she gets very emotional. A tiny thing will set her off and she will cry and cry and cry tears of total sadness. A recovery is almost impossible. Prevention is key.

BUT, another thing that has helped her tremendously is to talk about it at other times. We talk about things I notice in her, and I remind her of examples. So, when I know she's tired, I remind her that it will be easier to cry, and it's just because she's tired. So, we should probably wait to do x until morning when she'll be more up for it.

We've had discussions like that about other things, and a little reminder is all she usually needs now. I can just say, like before we start an activity, "I know that we haven't had lunch yet, and you are probably feeling hungry. It's probably going to be harder to be nice to your brother while we do x. Do you think you can do it, or should we wait until later?"

Since your dd seems to meltdown often, I would talk about ways to handle conflict, etc, and then put the ball in her court. I would tell her how her screaming makes me feel, and I would set some boundaries for myself. I would give her a heads-up and a reminder before we started an activity, and ask her if she's up for it. If she isn't, we'd move on. If she says she IS, then the consequence for rage would be putting whatever it is away. No amount of screaming and tears would change my mind. The lesson would NOT be "you get stuff taken away if you throw a fit", but "I love you too much to let you be so upset about this. You were not ready, so we need to try another day." Heavily emphasized.

My goal is to teach her to work with herself. We all have boundaries, and we all need to know when to pull in the reins.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Something that is a little thing but made my dd feel better when she was older and having tantrums (and she stopped when she was 5) was instead of using the word "tantrum", which made her feel shamed, we'd say "having trouble". I don't know why it made such a difference but she visibly relaxed when I started wording it like that. "Why did we have to leave the restaurant before dessert last time?" "You were having trouble that night." "Oh, yeah, I remember now." That way we could discuss things without getting her emotions worked up again.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
I read the Kurcinka Power Struggles book and my biggest take home was that she is very process oriented--we have a much smoother time if I tell her mid-task "we're leaving in a bit so what do you need to do to finish your project?" and then help her. There was a bit of that going on yesterday--she was working on a project for her dad (a green glitter glue heart stuck to constructon paper for his office) and she needed black permanent marker. I didn't have one and no subs are acceptable.

What else did you get out of the Kurcinka? I do feel like I've been doing the same things for two years and it's not helping. It's like her cue of "I've gone too far!" is so far beyond what I can handle, if that makes sense. I'm not sure this is normal behavior at five.

The Kids, Parents, and Power Struggle book is more about finding the underlying emotions causing the misbehavior or the power struggle and dealing with them instead of the more visible surface issue. It also focuses on having responses that connect with your child instead of disconnect. The importance being placed on everyone feeling emotionally ok when the conflict is resolved instead of you, the parent, have won the power struggle.

I guess with your specific situation you could have asked her why it was so important to have a black marker. Then asked her what she thought could be done about the situation to make it work. Sending a child to their room alone is a disconnect type of reaction, so is punishing for an emotional outburst. Telling your DD "we don't scream and cry to get what we want" assumes she isn't genuinely upset and frustrated. Maybe saying "wow you are really upset.", then asking questions to see if you could find out why she's so upset would have been more connecting. Disconnecting actions often escalate emotional outburst while connecting actions can help the child work through the issues that caused them.


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## cotopaxi (Sep 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ssh* 
I guess with your specific situation you could have asked her why it was so important to have a black marker. Then asked her what she thought could be done about the situation to make it work.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Regarding asking her why she's so upset--once she's screaming, I can say whatever and it doesn't matter. It's like she's taken off. I could have said "ok, let's hop in the car and go buy a marker!" and I am pretty sure she'd still be screaming.

But, I could do a better job at asking the question in the beginning and trying to get her to accept alternatives before her world collapses.

I just get tired of handling DD with kid gloves, honestly, and I just am waiting for the day when she reasonably says "Oh, no black marker? I'll use this green one instead." I have a feeling it's still a long way off.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *staceychev* 
Seriously, Heather, we've got parallel families... just add the infant to ours. Do you think she's tired from kindy? I know that it's been a tough adjustment for us (thus, no return email from me this past week!), and even though Lu says she's not tired, I know she is. And, yes, DH is a better tantrum defuser than I am.

I don't know what to say. Just commiseration.

We just have two little girls at the exact same stage.









I think the new schedule plays a part but really she's been back to having tantrums all summer. I think we're all creatures of habit--me too--so we are probably both off of our game til we get used to this new schedule, figure out what's too much for her, and then settle in for a few months.


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## BellaClaudia (Aug 1, 2008)

In our case we don't prohibit sugar entirely because this is what brain needs so we provide fruits as a source but occassional home made healthy cookie or organic lollypop is just fine.

In case of tantrum the most important thing is being fair.

Sometimes they really are fair and they ask few times before we can adress the issue being busy with our grown up stuff so if they break into tantroom that is explainable as we get irritated by the same token if we have to ask them five times for soemthing yet we are grown ups with much greater sens of self and our temper management.

When all things are provided: rest, food, water!..yes water! we have a glass of water always out for her and she comes and drinks it oftentimes and so that keeps her also much more leveled...

Anyhow when all things are provided and she gets into hype I stop negotiating and not get into any kinds of fights I just calmly point to the corner of the sofa and aks her to sit there for three minutes. She does go and sits. Before I was just clueless.. I would tell her that I will send her to her room and I even did once or twice and it made her more traumatic even if I was there with her so now she knows that this is easy way out so she accepts it happily as a fair trade.. she seats on the sofa shortly, she knows she went overboard and she could not handle herself anymore, she sits and immediately is calming down, I never keep her there for more then 3 minutes and mantyimes even only for a minute or two and she will ask me in the meanetime if she can get off already and sometiems I will say, OK. sometimes I ask: are you ready to get off, are you ready to apologize and give me a hug? and the answer is always "yes"! and she gets of happy and shinny I get apology and hug and it is sensere.

I never yeall or talk to her when she is sitting on the sofa just do what I need to do around the house and don't leave her alone in the room, I am right there but not seatting or stearing at her, I just walk casually and mind my own business.

I never disucss what she was sitting for immediately, I give it time and do it sometimes later that day when the emotions are calm and mind is clear she will talk about this and analise and explain me what went wrong, I will tell her what she should do instead and so on and life goes on.

NO way I will be like my mother and it is just that kids are kids and they just behave with no control as they just don't have it, my mom just did not know how to handle it and beating and yelling was the only instinct she had.

It took me a while to make this work but it was mainly to get grasp of my own emotions and be able to calmly proceed through my program. They can get under the skin







. Now it is really a breez as she knows the drill and I know the drill and no hard feelings. We both understand that she just simply sometimes "looses it" and I simply have to put her back in track emotionally and I don't need to fell in the process into pieces. She is very happy to see me in controll and that I am not mad but just "mean business" and so it all works for us.

When my husband is in charge though.. entirely another story.. he just tends to ignore her request and is not as sensitive to her timming and would make her to wait but he does the same to me so I know how irritating it can be.. but this is his super laid back personality (too laid back and only when comes to others waiting not him).. and therefore he will have her snap all the time, his handling the tantrum also sucks because he just will raise his voice and jumps into disciplining her whereas on the side it is always clear that he just is off. We are working on it though.

It is difficult to have five minutes though with both of them in the evenning when there is no 3 tantrums within this time, it is like a child is watching a child and the older child is trying just to show who is the boss...
then again their tantrums are about the same and it sad to see how they escalate their amotions between the two.

So for me the key again is keeping it together and have short and fair tool, sofa was my answer. It is soft, cozy and right there and it is short time too as from my own experience when I was a child I remember getting more aggrivated and angr-ier by long punishments, whereas short do the trick, they send a message, stop behavior and do not aggrivate therefore really keep it only as short as you see it worked.

Hugs


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
But, I could do a better job at asking the question in the beginning and trying to get her to accept alternatives before her world collapses.

This is what I meant by asking questions. Once a preschooler is so overwhelmed with emotion she is screaming it's too late for anything but quiet sympathy and patience until the tantrum blows over. I was mainly answering "What else did you get out of the Kurcinka?". And it was to use emotional coaching to understand underlying emotional causes and avoid tantrums and misbehaviors instead of engage in the power struggle. Reading the book again couldn't hurt, I've read it twice. I noticed different things in it when my DD was abit older and had different issues.

Oh and some bad news, some people never can say "Oh, no black marker? I'll use this green one instead." , it's just not their temperament. Most little kids who tantrum don't become really intense adults or perfectionists, but some do. Another thing I got from both Kurcinka books was how to deal with temperament traits in a proactive instead of a reactive way to help avoid conflicts and meltdowns.


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ssh* 
This is what I meant by asking questions. Once a preschooler is so overwhelmed with emotion she is screaming it's too late for anything but quiet sympathy and patience until the tantrum blows over. I was mainly answering "What else did you get out of the Kurcinka?". And it was to use emotional coaching to understand underlying emotional causes and avoid tantrums and misbehaviors instead of engage in the power struggle. Reading the book again couldn't hurt, I've read it twice. I noticed different things in it when my DD was abit older and had different issues.

Oh and some bad news, some people never can say "Oh, no black marker? I'll use this green one instead." , it's just not their temperament. Most little kids who tantrum don't become really intense adults or perfectionists, but some do. Another thing I got from both Kurcinka books was how to deal with temperament traits in a proactive instead of a reactive way to help avoid conflicts and meltdowns.

I agree.

Some kids just get to fight/flight/fright really fast. Their mental CEO is no longer operational and no amount of anything is going to get them back until they've reached the apex of their emotional overload. I really think it's unavoidable, so the point is to a) figure out how to make the meltdown last less time and b) help the child learn to insert a pause between stimulus and freak out and to be more self-aware. Each meltdown is an opportunity to learn for the next time.

In something like the marker incident, if I saw her ramping up over the marker, I'd say something like "oh, blue would look good! It would look like the sky!" (Distract/divert)

If she lost it, I would say "Oh, that's so frustrating!" (empathize)

Then I'd rub her back, gather her up and cuddle her, give her space - whatever works for her (attempt to balance her emotions, provide alternate stimulation to focus on). Then you just ride it out. The peak will come and then they'll cry and seek comfort (or however this looks for an individual child). AFTER the fact, when they're in that calm, connected, reflective state, you discuss what happened and what could have gone differently - emphasizing that they're really powerful and can make a choice.

This is an issue of temperament, and can't be wholly avoided. But you can help them build coping strategies when they're overwhelmed, and as they get older the frequency and duration should reduce.

I have two kids like this, and I'm happy to report that they're much better about it. DD ramped up again shortly after turning 11 and she was totally triggering me. I was pretty unproductive in how I handled it, until I realized she was emotionally pretty much in the same place as she'd been at 3. So, now I empathize, give room or connect as she prefers, and she settles down much faster and it's happening far less frequently. DS now almost never melts down except when he's sick. In fact, when he's upset, he's great at saying things like "I'm feeling really anxious about ______, and I'm worried that ____" and will seek help figuring out his options if he can't do it himself.

It's hard, tiring and isolating. But it does get better with time and connection.


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

OP, you are not alone.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
My opinion on tantrums is that they have them until they've learned a few things through them, largely two things: unconditional love, and futility. ......... But the other half is that she needs to learn the concept of futility, that some things don't go how we'd like them to go regardless of how much we wish they would, regardless of how much we fuss, regardless of how much our parents wish they would. So really all you can do is wait out the tantrum, empathize with her (I wish black permament black markers were OK to draw with) and then give her love when she's done with her tantrum and help her see that everything is OK even when you don't get the black marker you want.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
I am very nice in the beginning, when I have to explain that we don't have/she can't have something that she wants. I get less nice the longer she screams in my face.


Our DS2 turns five this week. He's been doing this since he was three. His tantrums are sudden, with no warning, loud, violent, and they go on and on and on. I keep telling myself he must be just about grown out of them.

I've run _out_ of patience. Now I give him one chance to listen to an alternative to what he wants, and a bit of empathy, but he only ever escalates his tantrum no matter what. Two years of this have tapped me dry.....I can't, won't deal with it anymore. At home he's getting taken to his room to deal with it alone very quickly now. I'm all out of "nice" reserves to draw on. When we are out, I've started to just leave immediately. I can't do quiet sympathy and patience when 1. I'm being physically assaulted, and 2. it's never worked with him - never. Not even once.

BTW I never give in to a tantrum over something he wants. Never. That is one route I absolutely will not consider. So I have not been "encouraging" them. The "futility" thing does not seem to be getting through.

Yesterday I had to carry a kicking, yelling almost 5-yo out of the library over my shoulder because there is _no way_ to calm him down once he starts, even if the original situation he was upset about is naturally resolved. DS1 was having an appointment with a tutor there so I couldn't even really leave - DS2 and I just had to sit in the van for 45 minutes. I hate carrying him out. It tears up my knee every single time I have do to this. I am sick of it and sick of injuring my knee over and over. (It's also humiliating but I learned to suck that up 1.5 yrs ago.) I just don't want to take them anywhere until he grows out of this, but that is not fair to our older son.

I hope and pray he will grow out of this soon. The fact that it's gone on for two years makes me wonder, if I had handled these episodes differently from the beginning, would they still be going on ? It's hard not to doubt myself in the face of what seems like impossible behavior that goes on and on, that I don't see other parents dealing with for so long.

Both of my kids are spirited, but DS1's raging tantrum behavior was quickly extinguished at age 3 by me not putting up with it. This doesn't seem to make a dent with DS2. My SIL told me it took our nephew until age 7 to grow out of it.....I don't think I can deal with this for two more years. I mean, that really scares me.


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## joensally (Jun 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laundrycrisis* 
Both of my kids are spirited, but DS1's raging tantrum behavior was quickly extinguished at age 3 by me not putting up with it. This doesn't seem to make a dent with DS2. My SIL told me it took our nephew until age 7 to grow out of it.....I don't think I can deal with this for two more years. I mean, that really scares me.

Have you had an assessment done? Nobody wants to feel like your son does during and following these episodes, and it sounds like he has no ability to control it once it starts. Interesting that there's a family history. Did you try not putting up with it with DS2 when he was 3?

I didn't describe how bad the meltdowns used to be - but they were awful. I'm not meaning to sound like I'm providing pat answers to big problems - meltdowns were a major issue for years in our house. DD's could literally last over an hour. She had a meltdown at her brother's school performance one time where I literally removed her immediately, physically moved her to and into the car, drove home and then she continued for quite a long while. No real idea what set her off. It was awful, and lead to us seeking help. It's anxiety in her case, sensory issues in his - in addition to temperament and rigid thinking when under stress. The frequency and duration of meltdowns has plummetted, but it took getting some help and the approach I described above to get us to the point where DS rarely if ever melts down (he's well within typical for age in this regard now), and DD's usually last 5 minutes top and aren't nearly as loud/intense because they've matured and adopted some strategies to cope with the intensity of their experience.


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *joensally* 
Have you had an assessment done? Nobody wants to feel like your son does during and following these episodes, and it sounds like he has no ability to control it once it starts. Interesting that there's a family history. Did you try not putting up with it with DS2 when he was 3?

No, I haven't had any sort of evaluation for this. It's odd - he is normally intense, but very calm when he's in a calm mood. When he is in an energetic mood, he does not ever have tantrums. With the tantrums he goes from being calm, 0, to full explosion in a split second. I have tried to watch for any sort of buildup or common pattern about what sets him off so I can prevent them, but I haven't found anything other than they only happen when he was calm. He usually does not even seem upset about anything right before they happen.

The nephew has ADHD. I suspect that in our older son, but not the younger one.

I didn't do the "leave immediately" thing as effectively with the younger one at 3 because at that time I would have also had to deal with an upset 5 yo. I think I also tried to be more patient with DS2 - offer more empathy, calm him down, etc. All the stuff I feel like I "should" do. After two years I've given up on those because they never help him end his tantrum. Being alone in his room seems to calm him down the quickest. If I stay with him, it just goes on and on and on. I think my presence feeds it.







I don't like feeling like I am being mean about it. I tried to get what felt "nice" to work and it's just gone on so long.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Laundrycrisis, it sounds very similar. I'm reading The Explosive Child right now as per this thread's recommendation and I am finding it REALLY helpful and I'm just getting into the meat of it. I think, with a strongwilled child it's really tough to find that middle ground between "giving in" and just prolonging everyones unhappiness. I'm happy to solve the problem and move on. I'll post back once I've finished the book but we had a mini-tantrum this morning and it was actually warded off with a hug and some probing about what EXACTLY it was that she needed and then a discussion of how we could make that happen other than screaming and crying.

baby steps! I really appreciate everyone's thoughts so far. It is the definition of insanity to just keep having the same problem and same response every day for two years! It's like groundhog day!


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

right there with you girls! Maybe we can have a little support group.

I like the idea of the "sit on the couch" thing. It gives space to cool down. I LOVE the idea of "having trouble," instead of fit or tantrum.

"I can't, won't deal with it anymore.... I'm all out of "nice" reserves to draw on." THIS - a thousand times over. My daughter is 7.5. This has been going on since she was 3.5.

After 4 years of doing this:
"Then I'd rub her back, gather her up and cuddle her, give her space - whatever works for her (attempt to balance her emotions, provide alternate stimulation to focus on). " ... and walking on egg shells and trying to arrange our ENTIRE life so she doesn't melt-down and have a tantrum - we can't do it anymore.

It's good to hear that there is some hope. But I'm right there with you guys. I called a play therapist who will meet with DH and I at the end of October and then with our child for 3 sessions. This is NOT covered by insurance and will be $125/session, but I guess I'm willing to try anything. We did/Do have mild sensory issues and some OT when she was 5 (and had not outgrown the tantrums, wouldn't wear socks and couldn't brush her hair). The OT helped some, but she is still rigid in her expectations/needs. Just does NOT transition well and if things don't go EXACTLY as she had planned then is unable to recover.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Just wanted to post back that this week went really well with no time outs. I've been slowing down when I see her start to get frustrated and have been asking her to talk to me before she starts crying. She's had a few meltdowns, but less severe and prolonged than over the summer. I'll keep posting back and let you all know if we're seeing progress in her learning to handle her frustrations.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

I just wanted to post back and say, now it's been a month and I am really seeing progress. Things have really calmed down. The other day something didn't go her way, and instead of turning into incomprehensible screaming, she cried a bit and I talked with her and hugged her for a bit and that was that. Her allowing me to hug her during a meltdown is a new thing--usually she's too busy swinging to get close to. I've been using the points from The Explosive Child and some of the suggestions in the thread and it's seems to really be working. She does need help sorting out her emotions, and once she gets wound up I've been asking her to "talk to me so we can make things work" and she is cooperating. I was wondering if my patience would all fall apart once I got PMS, but I'm happy to report that we got through that just fine.

So thank you everyone for all the responses--it really helped!


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## Ligeia (Jul 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtwice* 
Although this behavior can be normal, I do know a child who goes into incredible rages when eating dairy products, gluten, or other allergens.

My daughter has 20-30 minute intense tantrums any time she has gluten in her system. She gets very very angry and in your face about small things like the wrong marker you mentioned! It went on for two years until we figured it out. I have also read/heard from parents that red dye or dairy can be triggers for a lot of children too. Its worth looking into. And if you are serious about looking into gluten, I would recommend the "bad" ingredient list on celiac.com so as not to miss anything. We missed a couple of ingredients unintentionally in the beginning and which made the process a little confusing!


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## provocativa (Jan 17, 2005)

no time to read all the responses, but cheese is high in tyrosine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrosine - which is the precursor amino acid to adrenalin and noradrenaline (a;so called norepinephrine and epinephrine), as well as to dopamine. these neurotransmitters are the fight and flight neurotransmitters, though dopamine also has other functions. if the kid is deficient in the nutrients to produce the enzymes that reduce these neurotransmitters, etc., or in the b vitamins needed to produce gaba (gamma amnio butryic acid, a calming neurotransmitter). . . . then away you go: tantrum. my 4 yo is like this, my 7 yo is somewhat. hence my research. if mine get dairy or wheat or food coloring, we have a hard time for the next number of days. as i get further in to my research, i have actually come to believe that dairy and wheat are poisons, whether or not individuals produce anti-gliaden antibodies to satisfy an allopathic medicine test. food colorings have been documented to inhibit the synthesis of calming neurotransmitters. some kids also react to salicylates like this. . . .


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## MrsH (Sep 5, 2009)

I just found this thread after sitting through (yet another) screaming fit from my 4.5yo DS. It hurts my ears he screams so loudly and I do all the wrong things.

A big question I have is whether or not the others who posted have kids who do this only at home but not out at school or other settings. I get so confused by this: if he can keep it together at school, then why is he so different at home?! Screaming fits, and anytime he's bored he'll just start taking stuff apart or kicking/rolling/tossing it all over the floor. No matter how many time-outs he's had for this it doesn't help. And proactively trying to engage him in activities at home (painting, playdough, a new puzzle, playing a game) generally doesn't work because he's in such a pattern of going home and being bored. So he gets destructive and then finally goes into a screaming fit. Only to repeat it all over again after big sister comes home. Ideas? Suggestions?


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

DD does not melt down at school or for her grandparents. She saves it all for me. I believe in that theory that kids tantrum for mom because deep down, they trust mom.

Also, things continue to be much better here! She started winding up the other day and instead of a time out I gave her a hug and just let her cry a bit and again, it was over lke that-didn't turn into a drawn out freakfest.


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## buggysmom (Jan 7, 2007)

wow - what a thread. I was looking for something like this, and didn't even know how to search for what we've been going through. Son - 5 - meltdowns have escalated in frequency since school started this fall. (new "big" school -- transition kinder class.) His school day is no longer, but the stimulation / new dynamics / new rules and expectations, he is taking it ALL in and shining. Wants to do so well all day long, incredible pressure on self, crumbles when he sees me. Some of our hands-down hardest days have been in the last couple weeks. Meltdowns went from happening at home on the kitchen floor, to happening at school, when I arrived for pick-up. Some nights they have been the minute we enter the driveway or the front hall, the "safety and refuge" of home. Triggered by small things, "non-issues", but then impossible to reverse. Huge contrast to this last summer-- golden! week after week of Mr. Sunny Delight. I knew T-kinder transition would be huge, just didn't know how it would manifest itself. And boy has it. Thank you for book recommendation, sounds right-on. Also, thank you for the explanation why the rewards/incentive makes no difference. Love the basketball analogy. Thank you for the affirmation that he wants to be good, does not know how, does not have the skills to get out of it. I have been thinking about this piece a lot, SO good to read it in the post. Making some progress this week in helping him to identify the minute he shows distress/protest and can "turn it around!" Major praise and helping him see these concrete examples as they happen. My back hurts, my body hurts every day. It can feel so lonely. Other parents give the comforting, "Oh, we've all been there." But night after night? Crying? Tears? On the ground? In the rain in the parking lot? You start to wonder, if they've all been there, how come I'm the only one? Thanks moms. I know you are out here.


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## Petie1104 (Oct 26, 2010)

WOW, this thread, for some reason just reminded me of incident years ago when dss was 5. He wanted dinner, I was getting everything ready to make dinner, meatloaf and mashed potatoes. So I was sitting there with ground beef, raw potatoes, raw corn on the cob, just starting to get everything put together. Dss walked out and demanded dinner, at which point I told him I was getting ready to make it, at which point he started screaming about how he wanted dinner right NOW!. For some reason I was really cranky, probably his brother's colic, so I told him, "Fine, here you go" and handed him a raw potato. He looked at me and said, "What's this?" I said, "It's your dinner about an hour before it's done. Eat up." Of course he didn't, he threw the potato on the floor and walked to his room crying.

Anyway, your marker story made me remember that. I just wanted to say that I know what you are going through as I have btdt. Most my kids have a pretty bad temper and have had to go through the tantrums. Hang in there, it does get better. For some reason, my youngest has never really thrown an all out tantrum. I'm going to say that I'm just that good. LOL Actually he is just really not the tantrum throwing type. But, before I get ahead of myself, he's 4, so I may be on here next year crying because I've got yet another one with a temper.LOL


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## MrsH (Sep 5, 2009)

This thread had so many great suggestions that we've been implementing. I don't know whether it's what we did, or the passage of time, or both, but our planned response to tantrums in our 4.5 year old ds (once he's going) has been:


gently pick him up and move to couch or other quieter spot
Say: "we use our words in this family. You'll use your words when you're ready."
Say: "I love you even when you're really angry, and I know you love me."
Then I stay nearby, or snuggle with him if he's amenable to it (usually not). Occasionally I've had to leave b/c he wouldn't settle with me nearby

We always talk about it afterward and I try to honor whatever his request or need was at that moment. The key to this working has been to also spend a lot of conversational time during moments that he's quiet. We talk about what happened, we identify feelings a lot more, I watch him more closely so that sometimes I can catch him before he loses it and remind him that in our family we use words. I say "I love you" more often and engage with him more regularly. We talk about when other people get mad, and what things they/we can do to calm our bodies down, such as jumping jacks, screaming in a pillow, balloon breathing, or stomping feet. Lastly, I've modeling myself doing that. I'll say "I'm starting to feel really frustrated." If the behavior continues "ok, I'm taking a deep breath now, so I can stay calm. Let me take a break right here and just sit here for a moment. Gosh I'm feeling so mad right now I could scream, but I'm going to find a way to use my words."

It's been helping a LOT, the tantrums are now maybe once or twice a week and generally it's easy to identify that he was really hungry or tired. Thanks everyone, for your great suggestions!


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## [email protected] (Sep 7, 2010)

My 6 year old can tantrum at times, though they're fewer/farther between. He is a very sensitive kid in general, and emotional regulation has at times been his challenge. Usually the best way to deal w/ tantrums is recognize the triggers early & deescalate the tension right away -- lower the volume/tone of your voice (keep it very soft, or bring down the volume even more low, it can snap them out of it sometimes), reflect the statements your child just stated (ie. just restate their words, to show you understand what they're trying to tell you), and try to put their emotions into words ("that must be very frustrating for you"). All of this helps your kid slow down and verbalize their needs w/out a tantrum.

But when these things don't work & he's in the midst of a tantrum, I try to not feed into it w/ either a positive or negative response (ie. responding emotionally = feeding into it = rewarding the behavior w/ attention). I may say, "that's not appropriate behavior", "screaming is not OK", "I"m going to leave the room now, just let me know when you're done & then we'll talk about it". I stay lovingly neutral and matter-of-fact, and pull my attention and/or presence away from the situation until he has gathered himself. By not responding in a strong way, I am taking some of the power out of his tantrum (and showing him that his feelings are not scary or overwhelming for me, so that he doesn't feel overwhelmed w/ his own feelings & can ultimately learn that he has control/power over his own strong feelings). Afterwards, we are able to debrief the entire scenario through calm, rational conversation. Emotional regulation is something all of us have to learn, so I feel that my approach to tantrums gives him time to skill-build. I never punish or shame him for losing it.

It's taken a few years to get to this point, but like I said, tantrums are now more rare & he is generally able to verbalize his frustration or other feelings, and communicate his needs. He's still a work in progress, but arent' we all.


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