# "I would spank you if you were my child!"



## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

I am so angry right now...aggghhhh

My son goes across the street to play with his friend on wednesday evenings while I teach class at the house (I am a CBE) This is a family that we have known since they moved in 6 years ago. Our kids have grown up together (now 4 and 5) and are extremely close friends. Her mom and I are good friends despite our very different parenting ideas. After last night, I am seriously pondering how I have been so tolerant.

My ds has been going through a bit of a hitting phase. Usually its a swat at his little brothers hand for grabbing his toys or something. We are working with him everyday about finding another way to communicate his anger. It's like a knee jerk reaction for him and he really does feel bad afterwards. Anyway, his friend has a younger sister (18 months) and while they were playing in the room together she hit him excitedly and he hit back. The way her mom explained it she ran in there because the baby was crying and layed into my ds about how mean he was and that if he were her child she would have given him a good spanking.





















WTF?? I will never understand why some parents feel like threatening violent behavior with violence is an effective way of handling things...

Anyway, this whole scenerio was explained to me by the mama, my friend, when I went to pick him up. I was disturbed at the way she seemed to almost be bragging about how he just let her yell while he had his head down and how it was because "he had respect for her" I am so sad and angry by all of this my stomach hurts. I am sad that I have a non spanked child that hits, too, but we are working hard to change things every day...

The thing that really bothers me about this friendship is that she knows my views about certain things and she talk about those thing often I think to get a reaction from me. We have had heated discussions about this before and other things like circing (she thinks uncirced penises are "ugly"







) and extended breastfeeding (she weaned at 4 months) I am really starting to feel that we have soooo many conflicting ideas that its hard for me to justify keeping a friendship. The sad thing is our kids adore eachother. It would surely be traumatic for the both of them to not be able to play with eachother anymore.

Thanks for reading...


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

What did you say to her about her yelling and threatening your child?

Quote:

I will never understand why some parents feel like threatening violent behavior with violence is an effective way of handling things...
ITA

Did you tell her that?


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

I have said that to her in the past when we were talking about spanking in general. Last night, I just said that it sounded like watching my son was too stressful for her. I plan on having a real talk with her about it today when I am not so angry. BTW, she was so irked by the incident, that she had to have a couple of glasses of wine to calm down. I understand being mama bear about your child being hit, BTDT, but holy crap, talk about no coping skills...


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I understand how she could flip out and say something innapropriate to him.

BUT, to have a "See? I knew my parenting was better than yours" attitude about it later bugs me.

I don't expect her to agree with you. But, I do expect her to respect your choices, especially since she KNOWS you have thought this through, and studied it, and you are not just "winging it".

It also bugs me that he had his head down while she yelled at him. I know she was angry, but seeing his head down like that should have pulled at her heart just a little.

I still do not think I could end the friendship. I might find someone else to watch him when you need to work. But, best friends are extremely important to them, and they deserve to play together. In my opinion ending the friendship over this is unfair to the boys.


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## j924 (May 17, 2005)

I think that I would definitely stop the babysitting. Some people have a huge power trip thing when they are "in charge" of your kid. It sounds like the kids really enjoy each other so I would let them play at your house.

My ds went through a horrible hitting phase. It was so hard to listen to all the "experts" in my life tell me to hit him. I held fast that no child ever needs to be hit but those were some dark days. Now at almost five ds doesn't hit. While not exactly gentle, he has an amazing sense of empathy and fairness that never would have developed with the harsh punishments that people were recommending. Now all of these "experts" have seen my ds come out on the other side and even if they don't admit it, ds is a walking contradiction to their beliefs and that speaks louder than any conversation I could of had.


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## ~girlsmum~ (May 10, 2008)

If you need a glass or two of wine to calm down over an issue like that, I'd question leaving my son with her. Tough call, seeing as there's a nice friendship going on. Otherwise for me it would be a high fence and your side/my side, that's it. If you need to speak to ME about my girls hitting which I had to do with my teen years ago that's fine but if anyone said that to my young twin girls, I'd be seeing red for days!!


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soybeansmama* 
BTW, she was so irked by the incident, that she had to have a couple of glasses of wine to calm down.

Uhhh... she didn't do this while she was the person in charge of your child, I hope? Or while she was the only adult home with her own children, for that matter?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Personally, I wouldn't end the friendship, but I wouldn't have her babysit anymore either.

Edited to add that I have one neighbor friend who has a daughter who is friends with my daughter whom I've told to just send my daughter home if she needs to rather than handling anything herself. That's worked for us, but it wouldn't work if she were babysitting, obviously, because she wouldn't be able to send her home.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I think you should find someone else who doesn't have children to watch yours until your son gets out of the hitting phase. Having your small child hit by your friends much older child is not something that tends to make a friendship last whether the behavior is normal for that age or not.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Your poor son.

I'd rather not have a friend, than have a friend like that.

That being said, can't the kids just play together without you having anything to do with the mom. My mom never buddied up to the other moms in our neighborhood when I was a kid.


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

I forgot to mention that her husband was there also...soberly.

I have just sent her an email about how I feel about things. I told her we would be making other arrangments for Sawyer on Wednesdays so that they could have a relaxing evening as a family. I explained that I understand the mamabear rearing her ugly head when things like this happen. In fact, her daughter was the first child to hit my son when he was a baby (she was about 18 months...far from 4) I explained that I appreciate our differences, but that my son needs to be treated differently. I can't promise that my DS won't ever hit her DD. I feel like it's important to avoid the situation in the first place.

I feel so brave right now...I am sure that will fade a bit when we speak.









I am not ready to end the friendship, but I feel like we need to get to the bottom of some things...like the gloating about what an awesome and effective parent she is. I think she just feels helpless and weak IMO. I feel sensitive to that. Why else we she speak to often about the spanking, etc unless it was a cry for help? I can't walk away from her now...

Anyway thanks for letting me talk this out.


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AntoninBeGonin* 
Your poor son.

I'd rather not have a friend, than have a friend like that.

That being said, can't the kids just play together without you having anything to do with the mom. My mom never buddied up to the other moms in our neighborhood when I was a kid.

Our friendship has been important in the past...we have a few years invested. It would be impossible to just make a clean break while our children just played together...


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I think you are wise to end the babysitting relationship, because its hard to see that going well at the moment. But I also think the children's friendship can continue, you just need to be there too.

Honestly, I think you should congratulate her for NOT hitting your son. Assuming she spanks, I'm sure this was really hard for her to control. I confess that the only time I hit my son was when he had hit and kicked his little sister and the mama bear was just too much to hold, so I understand what she must have been feeling. But knowing that this might happen again and next time she might not be able to control herself definitely means not having her babysit for a while.

As long as you can each respect the other's position, or at least that the other person has thought about their position and made a different choice, I think its possible to be friends with someone who has a different outlook on parenting. But it doesn't sound like that is true here -- it sounds like she has little respect for your approach.

Beyond that though, I think its entirely possible for the children to remain friends as long as you can both agree on some groundrules about playdates.


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## hedgewitch (Jan 24, 2008)

FWIW I think she over reacted. Our friend's son (4) got upset with my ds (2.5) and hit him, we explained it was not ok but didn't get angry. My ds poked my friend's baby in the eye (deliberately) and she was really understanding. Me less so! When you have children you need to accept that this time they are the victim, another time they are the one doing the harm. It's the way kids are. How you deal with your own child is up to you but to behave in this way, and to go against the known parenting style/desires of your friend is out of order IMHO.

Sounds like you handled it really well, you are a very caring friend.


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

Thanks for the replies...

SOOOOO, she just wrote back about what a "spineless, holier than thou" person I am and that I have hurt her deeply with my "condesecending, passive-aggresive" email...














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:con fused:









I so don't know where to go from here.

How does someone go from ice-woman to completely butt-hurt?

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????


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## crazyrunningmama (Dec 16, 2006)

I think you go in person (tomorrow) and say you want to be friends with her, you want your kids to continue to be friends, but you don't want her to babysit anymore because you don't agree with how she deals with issues. Say you want to agree to disagree, but that her watching your kid is going to continue to cause problems and hurt the friendships. It will just get worse if you continue via email (BTDT).


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

I agree that I need to talk to her in person. The only reason I even emailed is because we both have 2 little ones and meeting up can be chaos. I needed to have the peace and quiet of typing it out. I think my intent was lost in my typed words. I need to speak to her...


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## mykdsmomy (Oct 10, 2004)

just quick jumping in here......I would email her back with a quick little "I dont think my words came across the way I meant them" and then tell her you really want to talk to her about this tomorrow.
I think that way, you've somewhat taken her off the defense and you can rationally talk about it tomorrow. Also, I think it will be a bit of an ice breaker rather than just having to "confront" her tomorrow without first acknowledging the email. (does that make sense?)

FWIW.....she sounds a little like some friends I have had in the past. I dont have those friends in my life anymore because we just didnt see eye to eye. One of them actually did spank my dd (two at the time) and I was LIVID. I actually walked in right after it happened and she thought I had seen it so she confessed but then added that my dd "deserved" it. That was the last time she babysat and pretty much the end of our friendship.....


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

I guess I have a little different perspective. There's no way I'd let a four and a half year old back into my house after he hit my 18 month old baby. My dd's four and we have lots and lots of friends in that age group playing at our house. There isn't a one of them that doesn't understand something as basic as not to hit a _baby_.

I think your son needed a dose of reality. People don't like to be hit. If you hit people, it generates an angry response and - chances are - you're going to get spoken to with angry tone, pitch, gestures, or even going to get hit back in some circumstances (eg other children on a playground, for instance).

Left well enough alone, I think he might have learned a valuable lesson here. Chances are, he never would have hit that baby again. Not because he was afraid this mom would spank him, I don't think. But simply because he recognized the magnitude of his wrong doing by the intensity of her reaction. He felt bad. He ought to have felt bad.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Sorry, I know it isn't what you want to hear...but she sounds immature and petty. Personally I wouldn't bother with her.


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

I am sad....

I don't have a lot of close friends. Maybe this is just the push I need to seek other mamas out.

Blessed, I understand what you are saying and that is one of the reasons why I told her I wanted to make other arrangments for Wed. Again, I can't guaranty that my DS won't have mean hands again at her house. It sickens me that we are going through this with him.

I am the mom that feeds my child very healthy and we have extensive tooth decay...

I am the mom that parents gently and I have the seemingly uncompassionate baby hitter...

I gets really discouraging at times. I get tired of hearing things like "well, just imagine how bad his teeth would have been if you weren't careful" and "just imagine how much meaner of a child he would be if you spanked and yelled and shamed"

I'm sorry. I just get really jealous of moms that don't try hard at all and don't have the issues that we have had.








I will go eat my worms now.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)




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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

I'm sorry this is so hard. It doesn't seem fair







.

When dd learned not to hit, I felt like it happened because it startled her to see normally gentle, steady mama angry at her. She learned that hitting was serious, and garnered a big response - much bigger than she wanted to deal with. I didn't (and never have) spanked or used a time out. But I showed her how angry it made me when she hit me.

I remember holding her in my arms and she swung back and popped me in the face while I was looking the other direction. I reacted very instinctually. I grabbed her kind of tightly, glared into her face and said "Don't you HIT me!!" It completely took her off guard and she was very upset. But it made a huge impression, and aside from some half hearted swiping when frustrated, she never really hit again.

I had the impression that this encounter with her friend was like that for your son. And maybe it's something that he's not had previously.

I think it's okay to show our kids our displeasure when their behavior steps outside of what's acceptable. I sort of think they need that, actually.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 

I think it's okay to show our kids our displeasure when their behavior steps outside of what's acceptable. I sort of think they need that, actually.

I agree completely with this.

But didn't the friend of the OP suggest to the child she was thinking about hitting him? I think that's on a totally different plane than "You did something really awful and because of that I am very upset"


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## _betsy_ (Jun 29, 2004)

"Well, thank goodness he's NOT your child!" and find another sitter for those nights.

I wouldn't leave my child in that woman's care ever again. Playing together at our house? Fine. At the park where I can supervise? Fine. Alone with her? Never again.


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

I don't know how to bypass the impulse to hit...especially when he is being hit. Yeah, she was 18 months, but in that moment it becomes a knee-jerk reaction for him. When my nipple is bitten by my 9 month old I have had to stop my hand in mid smack because it just comes out of me. I am 32 and have impulse control, he is 4 and does not. We need help...

We haven't spoken yet. I feel like this is her way of "punishing me." She won't return calls, etc. Meanwhile, her husband keeps coming out of the house and glaring in my direction while I play outside with the kids. This is so lame...


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## sunnymw (Feb 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soybeansmama* 

We haven't spoken yet. I feel like this is her way of "punishing me." She won't return calls, etc. Meanwhile, her husband keeps coming out of the house and glaring in my direction while I play outside with the kids. This is so lame...


















that is lame


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

yah, high school was fun, but I don't want to go back there...


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## bellacymom (Apr 3, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
I think you should find someone else who doesn't have children to watch yours until your son gets out of the hitting phase. Having your small child hit by your friends much older child is not something that tends to make a friendship last whether the behavior is normal for that age or not.

I kind of agree with this. Her daughter is a baby and he hit her. I understand he is little and doesn't really understand either but I would probably over react about that too. She shouldn't have bragged about it later though. I think if she made a mistake like that she should have come to you apologetically instead of bragging. Did you give her a sort of discipline that you wanted her to use in situations like that? I have been a nanny before and I had a biter so I am seeing both sides of this. I told the mom of the child I was keeping that if she didn't want me keeping her DD until my DD got out of her biting phase (She was only 16 months old so there was no reasoning with that) that I understood. She still let me keep her though and my DD grew out of it pretty quickly. It is sad to lose friends so I hope this is something that can be worked out. Good luck!


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

He has never done this to her before. this was an isolated incident. the hitting phase we are dealing with right now is usually when his younger brother goes after his toys. we haven't had a chance to discuss the "what ifs" of this scenerio but we have been around eachother for the last 4 years. we have a pretty clear idea about how the other person would like to handle things.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

Although I understand the impulse to protect a child, it is still absolutely inappropriate and inexcusable to yell at another mother's child like that, especially when it involves a threat of violence. I'd wager that her abusive tirade has done more damage to your son than your son did to her daughter.

I don't consider an 18 month old a "baby" and I think that we have to allow our children to make mistakes. Sure, it's unfortunate, but if he is remorseful and if it remains an isolated incident, we should give him the benefit of the doubt. I also think that children need to learn that mistakes are inevitable, and sometimes you're on the receiving end of it and although it's crappy, it's life. No lasting damage was done to the girl. This other mother should give your son room to learn.

Additionally, if this woman cites her "mama bear" instincts as the reason for her irrational behavior, then she should recognize your "mama bear" instinct to protect your son from verbal and emotional abuse. Although you, OP, are not being irrational by any means.


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## shanti1 (Jun 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I guess I have a little different perspective. There's no way I'd let a four and a half year old back into my house after he hit my 18 month old baby. My dd's four and we have lots and lots of friends in that age group playing at our house. There isn't a one of them that doesn't understand something as basic as not to hit a _baby_.

I think your son needed a dose of reality. People don't like to be hit. If you hit people, it generates an angry response and - chances are - you're going to get spoken to with angry tone, pitch, gestures, or even going to get hit back in some circumstances (eg other children on a playground, for instance).

Left well enough alone, I think he might have learned a valuable lesson here. Chances are, he never would have hit that baby again. Not because he was afraid this mom would spank him, I don't think. But simply because he recognized the magnitude of his wrong doing by the intensity of her reaction. He felt bad. He ought to have felt bad.


Ditto. Your friend did not spank your child. Your child did hit the baby. slapping is pretty much a show of excitement in an 18 month old.......but in a 4 year old it's just plain old hitting. Your friend, imo, was upset w/your son, she told him as much but did not hit your child.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

But we're assuming that a 4yo can understand child development. He probably doesn't distinguish between excited non-threatening hitting and malicious hitting. To him, he was hit so he hit back. Totally understandable (although still misguided) reaction. Now he can learn that the girl was not being mean by hitting him. Geez, children aren't born knowing all the rules.


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## Crazybean (Apr 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shanti1* 
Ditto. Your friend did not spank your child. Your child did hit the baby. slapping is pretty much a show of excitement in an 18 month old.......but in a 4 year old it's just plain old hitting. Your friend, imo, was upset w/your son, she told him as much but did not hit your child.

I agree with this. I would put it behind me but talk to the mom and tell her to never threaten violence with my kid ever again. It's okay to tell him that was wrong and she is upset but anything more is stepping over the line. This is a learning experience for everyone and I agree that he will probably not hit that little girl again.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soybeansmama* 
He has never done this to her before. this was an isolated incident..

I think the point is that this mama reacted appropriately to having her baby hit by a four year old.

We don't spank, so I wouldn't have threatened spanking. But what I would have done was responded with anger and indignation - the way she did - and then told him that he was going to have to leave our house.

It's a complete cop out to act as though a fouir year old can't understand or respond with restraint when feeling the urge to hit. You do your son a disservice by acting as though that is the case.

If a four year old couldn't resist the urge to hit there would be no surviving little brothers, sister, or pets in anyone's household. And preschools and daycares would be unable to exist.


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

I am not copping out of anything...we are working with him daily. I just was trying to understand him... I can't help him if I don't understand why is is doing something.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
It's a complete cop out to act as though a fouir year old can't understand or respond with restraint when feeling the urge to hit. You do your son a disservice by acting as though that is the case.

If a four year old couldn't resist the urge to hit there would be no surviving little brothers, sister, or pets in anyone's household. And preschools and daycares would be unable to exist.

The OP clearly wasn't copping out. She stated that they are working on the hitting thing, and that was the first time that he hit that girl.

And I think equating a hitting incident to sibling murder is rather ridiculous.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

I think many of us are saying that we all got our children to learn the seriousness of hitting, and not to do it, by the same method that this mom used. Showing the child the true emotions that hitting causes: anger, indignation, hurt.

This method works, because kids see what hitting really is.

I think this mama feels like your method is failing to teach your son not to hit. She used her method (the same that many or most of us have used), and was proud to share with you that it seemed to sink in with your son.

Your angry reaction to what must feel like normal discipline to her is ironic and hard for her to swallow.


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## f&p'smama (Sep 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shanti1* 
Ditto. Your friend did not spank your child. Your child did hit the baby. slapping is pretty much a show of excitement in an 18 month old.......but in a 4 year old it's just plain old hitting. Your friend, imo, was upset w/your son, she told him as much but did not hit your child.

I agree with you and if I were the OP's friend, I would not watch her son in my house again. What I think the OP is reacting to is the threat of violence against her son & the way her friend acted like this was some great intervention on her part. I don't hear her saying that it was okay for her son to hit or not okay for her friend to be angry about it. The whole thing seems to have occurred in the context of the friend criticizing GD & acting as if her son's hitting is a result.

OP -- I'm sorry. It sounds like you're doing all you can to help your son learn not to hit. I hope you and your friend can come to an understanding between the two of you.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

And let's not forget that this woman had an 18mo, 4yo, and 5yo playing in a room together unsupervised. Know one really knows what happened in there and perhaps a woman "watching" a child but not really watching, shouldn't be trusted with OP's son.

Although I understand responding with anger and hurt over a child that has been hit, she included a threat of physical violence. I don't think that is acceptable.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 

It's a complete cop out to act as though a fouir year old can't understand or respond with restraint when feeling the urge to hit. You do your son a disservice by acting as though that is the case.

If a four year old couldn't resist the urge to hit there would be no surviving little brothers, sister, or pets in anyone's household. And preschools and daycares would be unable to exist.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I think many of us are saying that we all got our children to learn the seriousness of hitting, and not to do it, by the same method that this mom used. Showing the child the true emotions that hitting causes: anger, indignation, hurt.

This method works, because kids see what hitting really is.

I very much disagree with such sweeping statements about 4 year olds. A lot of 4 year olds do hit from time to time-and they do it in daycares and preschools all over, it's quite common, and still everyone survives. And those kids who still hit at 4 often outgrow that, and do develop into kind and gentle older kids (eta this is not to say that a child who hits at times is not also a kind and gentle child overall). Your method may work for many kids, but it certainly isn't an instantly and permanently successful method for _all_ kids. For some kids this kind of emotional regulation and impulse control is a little harder, and takes a little longer, to learn--not the result of poor parenting. Kids develop at different paces.

OP, I do think your friend was way off base to 1) tell your son that he's _mean_ and 2) threaten him with physical violence (even if she did not act on it). This is an inappropriate way of expressing her very real and understandable (from a mama-bear perspective) feelings. An appropriate, mature angry reaction would have been to simply say "don't hit! That hurts!" with an angry tone. She was way out of line. I'm sorry this happened, and that she's refusing to speak with you.


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## mykdsmomy (Oct 10, 2004)

I have to add something here. I'm a mom to many children. I've babysat several children.....I have friends with large families. Hitting is wrong but it happens ALL. THE. TIME.

Children are LEARNING. They are learning how to control their impulses. It is not uncommon for preschoolers to hit or push when they are upset. It is way over the top inappropriate for anyone (imo) to FLIP OUT if their child is on the receiving end of a typical preschool behavior.

My kids have been hit by other children. I dont flip out on the child.....I will remove the child from the situation and explain to them that hitting is wrong and hitting hurts and possibly enforce a time out......but I wouldnt dream of verbally abusing a child because they hit my toddler.

If you think your own child would never hurt another child or hit , then good for you.....then dont babysit other children because it can and does happen. (eta: my oldest is girl and she never hit....was very passive and sweet.....I learned about more aggresive typical preschool behavior from my son and my friends boys...lol)


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## nichole (Feb 9, 2004)

Well, my now four year old was 2.5 when his brother was born. So it is a little different, but he went through a hitting, throwing, and knocking his brother down phase that I'm ashamed to say lasted about a year. Being a mama bear really didn't help. And boy, did the mama bear come out in me. The only thing that helped was very close supervision, showing him how to work things out without violence, and lots of 1 on 1 time with him.

He is four now. Just the other day, he bit his brother while I was on the phone. I think by having a lengthy phone call while they were bored was not a good idea. It put him in a position he was not able to deal with. That was the first time he bit him in a LOOONG time. He knows it is wrong. His impulse control is not as good as it should be. I did talk to him, have him go calm down in his room, make sure he knew it was wrong, etc. Since then he also did something similar really out of the blue, but not as bad. I was so mad, that I told him no more tv for the day. I think I actually overreacted a bit with the no tv, but it has to stop.

Sometimes I'm torn on letting him no how angry I am, but not wanting to overreact.


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

I also watch kids 3 days a week...a 4 year old girl and a 2 year old boy. I have seen lots of pushing, tackling, tug o war over toys, etc. I expect it. That doesn't mean I believe that it is OK, I just have realistic expectations of that type of dynamic. My 9 month old son has been the victim of older kids mean hands on occasion. I have raised my voice and have spoken very seriously to the children involved, but I don't believe that shaming, threatening, yelling, etc is effective. What has been most effective, though, is keeping my baby out of harms way...

RAMAMA, I have been so caught up in my anger over this that I didn't even think too much about the fact that they were all playing together unsupervised. They were in the other room and had to explain to her what happened...she didn't even witness it. I have done that when the older kids are playing together, but would never leave the baby to free range without being in the room. Thanks for bringing that up.

MYKDSMOMY...I agree with and appreciate your post. We actually took my son out of preschool because the interactions were negative. It was anxiety provoking for him. He is a very hands on, active, sensitive and spirited child. He experiences emotions in a big, deep way. Sometimes I think he feels overwhelmed by a lot of activity around him. These seem to be the scenerios that trigger his physically acting out. We are still learning together how to handle things. This is the first time I have ever parented a 4 and half year old boy...I am overwhelmed and baffled most a lot of the time. The random moments of clarity that I experience are a treat...


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I think the point is that this mama reacted appropriately to having her baby hit by a four year old.

We don't spank, so I wouldn't have threatened spanking. But what I would have done was responded with anger and indignation - the way she did - and then told him that he was going to have to leave our house.

It's a complete cop out to act as though a fouir year old can't understand or respond with restraint when feeling the urge to hit. You do your son a disservice by acting as though that is the case.

If a four year old couldn't resist the urge to hit there would be no surviving little brothers, sister, or pets in anyone's household. And preschools and daycares would be unable to exist.

ITA


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soybeansmama* 
I am not copping out of anything...we are working with him daily. I just was trying to understand him... I can't help him if I don't understand why is is doing something.

what are the consequences when he hits?


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## krystyn33 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soybeansmama* 
I have raised my voice and have spoken very seriously to the children involved, but I don't believe that shaming, threatening, yelling, etc is effective.









:

Expressing anger via name calling & threatening the child is not exactly an appropriate adult response, nor is it an effective way to model impulse control or handling anger. Not that we can be perfect all the time, but this woman, who seems unwilling to consider that she might not be 100% right in her perspective, was not setting a good example IMO.

Kids are different--some will have a harder time mastering impulse control than others--some things you just can't control, unless you resort to authoritarian methods which don't gel with GD. I'm glad the OP remains confident (despite some comments here) that she is doing best in dealing with her child's issue in her way.


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## mykdsmomy (Oct 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
what are the consequences when he hits?

What does it matter what the consequences are? We all have different opinions on what the "right" consequence should be in different situations. Are you implying that the OP doesnt give her dc appropriate consequences to his actions?


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mykdsmomy* 
What does it matter what the consequences are? We all have different opinions on what the "right" consequence should be in different situations. Are you implying that the OP doesnt give her dc appropriate consequences to his actions?

I'm just curious if there are any. I understand being upset at the spanking threat but I don't understand the outrage at the other mom's anger. the mom was angry. Of course she was. I am just trying to understand


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## yarngoddess (Dec 27, 2006)

While I do honestly believe that in some children hitting, regardless of how they are parented, is a totally emotional thing. I think that you are doing great in your approach with him, and how you are handleing it. I don't think that's the issue in this thread.

I think the Friend, the mamma bear, is the reason for this thread. I think that this is one situation where the friendship is going to suddenly be on the surface wayve HI and carry on with your everyday life. I don't think that things are going to change even if you do get her to talk to you again.

Why would you want her to? This is just another notch in the belt of differences between you- and it's just going to get bigger, wider and more full of notches as your children continue to grow up and out. This maybe a friendship that you have invested years into- but *your CHILD and your family are FOREVER!!!* You are going to have friends that come and go in your life, and some will be for the long haul, some will be only for a short time. I think that you have gained all that you can from this relationship and it's time to end it now with out any more stress.

Ultimately, if this lady were a true respectful friend she would have NEVER said that to YOUR child- even if she felt that, or would have said that to her own child. She knows how you feel about YOUR children, as you know how she feels how about her kids. It's like saying "Oh- your a vegetarian- HERE KID HAVE A STEAK" granted this is very different, but it's still disrespectfull and against your values and wishes.

I'm so sorry. For the loss of this friendship, because it will never be the same again, and for the confusion and stress this has caused your son. I'm also sorry that your son is hitting, as I too know how frustrating that can be and how it can effect all aspects of your life. Hugs- I hope you find your center in all this and learn from it, for that's what we are to do- LEARN to be/do better!

HUGS again.


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## A_Random_Phrase (Mar 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mykdsmomy* 
I have to add something here. I'm a mom to many children. I've babysat several children.....I have friends with large families. Hitting is wrong but it happens ALL. THE. TIME.

Children are LEARNING. They are learning how to control their impulses. It is not uncommon for preschoolers to hit or push when they are upset. It is way over the top inappropriate for anyone (imo) to FLIP OUT if their child is on the receiving end of a typical preschool behavior.

My kids have been hit by other children. I don't flip out on the child.....I will remove the child from the situation and explain to them that hitting is wrong and hitting hurts and possibly enforce a time out......but I wouldn't dream of verbally abusing a child because they hit my toddler.

If you think your own child would never hurt another child or hit , then good for you.....then don't babysit other children because it can and does happen. (eta: my oldest is girl and she never hit....was very passive and sweet.....I learned about more aggressive typical preschool behavior from my son and my friends boys...lol)

Exactly. I was thinking along these lines as I read this thread. It is sad that things got so angry, but children do hit. If I had been the babysitter, I don't think I would have been so enraged unless my baby was bloody or bruised. It doesn't sound like that is the case. I would have been stern with the child (not yelling) and told him ... well, ideally, I would have found out what happened first but we don't always do that. But with "knowing" that the 18 month old child hit first, I would talk about that. Maybe she was playing. (Maybe she hit because she has been hit or had seed someone hit and so she was imitating). Maybe he did something she didn't like. I'd explain to him that we don't hit. If we have a problem with a child we try to find peaceful ways of dealing with things. I would also have talked to the 18 month old. I wouldn't have banned the 4 year old from my home unless he had a habit of hitting. Hit the toddler once, learning lesson. Hit the toddler twice, "Are you sure you want to visit here?" Hit the toddler three times, "Bye bye." (I'm assuming typical 4 year old hits here)

The mamabear rage did come out in me once when two boys I didn't know were fooling around with each other and one smashed my baby's hand in the door by slamming it on her (she was crawling age and we were at her grandma's house and I didn't have time to move her away from them). (And she screamed bloody murder - it could have broken her hand) I grabbed him and pushed him up against the door before I realized what I was doing (both his parents were in the room). Luckily, sanity returned but I did angrily tell him not to ever do that to my baby again (he was 7-8 years old, I'd guess). But I'm not proud of losing my sanity. I never am.

I wouldn't want to throw around accusations but it seems to me that the mom has many issues with you (perhaps she's feeling guilty or feels like the two of you are secretly at war) and her feelings just kept building and building until she exploded at your child. And then used that as a reason to make a dig at you. And now to end the friendship. It may blow over, but even if it does it would be good if you could find friends with views similar to your own. Jealousy or guilt can really escalate - or even a growing anger because you are "doing it wrong." When I was around three, I prayed for a trike for Christmas. I told my mother I was going to get one. She said we couldn't afford one. I told her it was okay because God was going to get it for me not her. She had a friend there and the friend told her that she should spank me for talking to her like that. Mom replied, "If God told her he's going to give her a trike, who am I to say anything?" (I did get the trike, by the way - and not through anything my mother did). After I grew up (I'm the youngest), I visited the lady and she often marveled at how we grew up to be such nice adults and her kids had grown up not, when she had raised her kids right and my mom had not.


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yarngoddess* 
While I do honestly believe that in some children hitting, regardless of how they are parented, is a totally emotional thing. I think that you are doing great in your approach with him, and how you are handleing it. I don't think that's the issue in this thread.

I think the Friend, the mamma bear, is the reason for this thread. I think that this is one situation where the friendship is going to suddenly be on the surface wayve HI and carry on with your everyday life. I don't think that things are going to change even if you do get her to talk to you again.

Why would you want her to? This is just another notch in the belt of differences between you- and it's just going to get bigger, wider and more full of notches as your children continue to grow up and out. This maybe a friendship that you have invested years into- but *your CHILD and your family are FOREVER!!!* You are going to have friends that come and go in your life, and some will be for the long haul, some will be only for a short time. I think that you have gained all that you can from this relationship and it's time to end it now with out any more stress.

Ultimately, if this lady were a true respectful friend she would have NEVER said that to YOUR child- even if she felt that, or would have said that to her own child. She knows how you feel about YOUR children, as you know how she feels how about her kids. It's like saying "Oh- your a vegetarian- HERE KID HAVE A STEAK" granted this is very different, but it's still disrespectfull and against your values and wishes.

I'm so sorry. For the loss of this friendship, because it will never be the same again, and for the confusion and stress this has caused your son. I'm also sorry that your son is hitting, as I too know how frustrating that can be and how it can effect all aspects of your life. Hugs- I hope you find your center in all this and learn from it, for that's what we are to do- LEARN to be/do better!

HUGS again.

I am in tears over this post...
I am so discouraged because I feel so isolated as a parent. Motherhood can be a very isolating experience. It begins in labor with you first child, where you think for a minute that no one on earth has ever experienced the immense joy and pain that you are going through. Then those feelings come up again when you have such frusteration with your child that you can't believe that anyone on earth has felt this inadequet (sp)

I honestly have compassion for this mom. I believe her anger and her outburst was an expression of her frusteration with herself. I honestly believe she doesn't want to parent like this, but feels helpless and hopeless and out of ideas. I have been there many times. I am saddened that she has chosen to express herself in this way.


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## A_Random_Phrase (Mar 27, 2008)

It can be lonely, frustrating, and discouraging. We aren't there with you in person but a lot of us here are supporting you.


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
I'm just curious if there are any. I understand being upset at the spanking threat but I don't understand the outrage at the other mom's anger. the mom was angry. Of course she was. I am just trying to understand










There are most certainly consequences for hitting. I try to keep them as natural as possible like, hit with a toy=you don't get to play with that toy. More importantly I am trying to understand if there is something I can do so that the hitting doesn't happen in the first place.

Again, Sawyer learns in a different than most other kids that I have had experience with. We are in the middle of an art project to help him remember that hands are not for hitting. It's a collage of pictures that we have taken of all the amazing things that his hands can do: turning the pancakes over with the spatula, holding his brothers hands, playing with his cars, squirting the hose, playing games on the computer, etc. I am going to write "My hands are not for hitting" at the top of the poster and "My hands are for:" a little further down. I am going to let him paint and glitter and glue however he wants. We are all going to put our hand prints on the poster as a family and make a commitment to eacher that we will do the best we can to have gentle hands. I have no idea if it will work, but at least he will have a reminder hanging on his wall about his hands and hopefully it will sink in at some point...


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A_Random_Phrase* 
It can be lonely, frustrating, and discouraging. We aren't there with you in person but a lot of us here are supporting you.

















thankyou, dear mama...


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
I agree completely with this.

But didn't the friend of the OP suggest to the child she was thinking about hitting him? I think that's on a totally different plane than "You did something really awful and because of that I am very upset"

For a normal needs child - they don't go through a "hitting phase" at 4!!!!!

That's WAY too old to lash out like that. I watch a 4yo and 2yo twins in my house. I have seen the 2yos and my 18mo hit each other. But I would be FURIOUS is the 4yo did it. She is MUCH bigger and MUCH older. It is completely unacceptable for her hit toddlers.

I understand that you are upset that your friend threatened to spank your child. And it's reasonable that you are so upset. But it also sounds like you are making excuses for your child.

If a 4yo is hitting little kids - that needs to be STOPPED immediately. It's not something that should be 'worked on' but something that needs to be solved. You can work on an 18 month old who's hitting out of frustration. But a 4yo????


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

I really agree with ramama and sledg here. My 4yo hits very rarely now, and I would be quite surprised if she hit an 18mo, but I can't guarantee that it wouldn't happen if she was hit first. I would of course be very apologetic and DD would probably be removed from the action or taken home, but I would be very upset if a friend treated her the way this woman treated the OP's kid.

I also really don't think that I would completely freak out if a 4yo hit my 18mo, unless there was actual injury or the hitting incident was very violent. Kids hit. It happens. An 18mo isn't really a "baby" to me either, but a toddler--it might be a different if a 4yo hit my infant (3mo).


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## grniys (Aug 22, 2006)

First of all, I've never parented a 4 year old. My son is only a year old, so maybe my thoughts/ opinions will have changed in three more years. And I don't say this to be judgemental of anyone in any way.

I understand you're upset at the other mama. And I can see why. But I don't think she meant "I would spank you if you were my child" as a threat. Now before you all jump all over me, just listen. I don't think she meant it as a threat because she never intended to hit him. She wasn't saying she would in any way hit him. She was just telling him that is what the consequences are for HER child. It would have been a threat if she said "If you hit her again I'll spank you".

Should she have said it? No. But I really don't think it's something to destroy a friendship over. The point is she didn't hit him. And I doubt she ever intended to inflict any sort of bodily harm on him. She was just angry and wanted him to know it was a bad thing to do, he is not to do it again and that the punishment for her children is much more severe, so he should be happy he's not her child.

She sounds like she got very defensive over the email, and I can even understand that. It is so, so easy to take things the wrong way on email. When my dh is deployed I'll email him and say something teasing or joking, and he'll get mad until we talk on the phone and he's like "Oh... you weren't being serious. Duh!" and then everything is good again. Trying to solve problems through email is a very bad idea. You're not face to face, you can't lighten the tone, you simply have black & white words that can be taken in a million different ways.

She probably should have handled the situation more maturely, but I do think you're blowing it out of proportion. Your son was not hit, he learned it isn't good to hit so odds are he won't do that to the baby again. You're not letting her babysit anymore so I don't see it being an issue again.

But that's just my opinion, and you can take it or leave it, and I honestly didn't mean any of this offensively.


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

*Understanding* is different than *excusing* a behavior...

So, what would you have done, KESSED? enlighten me...

and also explain to me how you solve something without working on it...


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soybeansmama* 
Thanks for the replies...

SOOOOO, she just wrote back about what a "spineless, holier than thou" person I am and that I have hurt her deeply with my "condesecending, passive-aggresive"


Quote:


Originally Posted by *soybeansmama* 

I honestly have compassion for this mom. I believe her anger and her outburst was an expression of her frusteration with herself. I honestly believe she doesn't want to parent like this, but feels helpless and hopeless and out of ideas. I have been there many times. I am saddened that she has chosen to express herself in this way.

I honestly hope you didn't express the second quote in your email because that would explain her response.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soybeansmama* 
*Understanding* is different than *excusing* a behavior...

So, what would you have done, KESSED? enlighten me...

and also explain to me how you solve something without working on it...

Since hitting is something I think is completely unacceptable - I would pull out the big guns EVERY TIME my child hit. What that is will depend on the child and the family. Hitting is about the only thing we plan to use time-outs for. Because IMO if a 4yo hits another child then they aren't ready to be part of things. And if a 4yo had a serious consequence each and every single time they hit someone - they will stop pretty quickly.

I guess "hitting" is something that I would take VERY seriously - and I wouldn't subject other people's children to my child is she was a know "hitter". And that's what you say your DS is. He could actually hurt an 18mo with the size difference.

Hitting isn't OK. It's not OK for a parent to hit their child. And it's not OK for a child to hit someone else.

So I would say to do whatever will work for him to STOP the behavior immediately.

I'm all for "working on" good manners, and helping out around the house. But hitting is serious. And it's not OK.


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
I honestly hope you didn't express the second quote in your email because that would explain her response.

pardon me for being dense...but







need some clarity


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soybeansmama* 

My ds has been going through a bit of a hitting phase. Usually its a swat at his little brothers hand for grabbing his toys or something. We are working with him everyday about finding another way to communicate his anger. It's like a knee jerk reaction for him and he really does feel bad afterwards.


This is the part that's bothering me.

It implies that this has been going on for some time and you aren't concerned that your 4yo is HITTING other kids...


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
For a normal needs child - they don't go through a "hitting phase" at 4!!!!!

That's WAY too old to lash out like that. I watch a 4yo and 2yo twins in my house. I have seen the 2yos and my 18mo hit each other. But I would be FURIOUS is the 4yo did it. She is MUCH bigger and MUCH older. It is completely unacceptable for her hit toddlers.

I understand that you are upset that your friend threatened to spank your child. And it's reasonable that you are so upset. But it also sounds like you are making excuses for your child.

If a 4yo is hitting little kids - that needs to be STOPPED immediately. It's not something that should be 'worked on' but something that needs to be solved. You can work on an 18 month old who's hitting out of frustration. But a 4yo????

I respectfully disagree here. We have to keep in mind that this 4yo has an infant sibling. These kind of stressors can cause problems with hitting, bed-wetting, temper tantrums, and all sorts of stuff. I don't think that phases are so clear-cut. A child dealing with a newly-mobile sibling may resort to hitting in order to protect his space and his stuff. In this instance it's totally understandable to go through a hitting phase at 4. He's got a lot of new things to deal with and I know that my 4yo can easily become overloaded.

Soybeansmama, I LOVE the art idea! I may give it a try with my 4yo!

Yarngoddess, your post just truly rocked. I couldn't agree more!


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramama* 
I respectfully disagree here. We have to keep in mind that this 4yo has an infant sibling. These kind of stressors can cause problems with hitting, bed-wetting, temper tantrums, and all sorts of stuff. I don't think that phases are so clear-cut. A child dealing with a newly-mobile sibling may resort to hitting in order to protect his space and his stuff. In this instance it's totally understandable to go through a hitting phase at 4. He's got a lot of new things to deal with and I know that my 4yo can easily become overloaded.

Hitting is different. It isn't OK for a child to hit - no matter what the "stressors" are...

Protecting their stuff is a total bogus argument to excuse something which isn't acceptable...

It is black and white. And children can understand that. Hitting isn't allowed. It just isn't.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

No one is saying that hitting is okay or acceptable. It's understandable, that's it. Finding the reason for hitting can lead to a resolution. How would you suggest "instantly" putting a stop to it? Nothing is instant with children. It's just not.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soybeansmama* 
pardon me for being dense...but







need some clarity









This:
_
I honestly have compassion for this mom. I believe her anger and her outburst was an expression of her frusteration with herself._

IS extremely condescending IMO. She's not frustrated with herself. She's frustrated with YOUR SON who is four and should know better.

I'm not saying that a 4 year old hitting is completely unprecedented. But it doesn't seem to me that you are taking it seriously enough and THAT is probably why she's pissed off.


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## To-Fu (May 23, 2007)

I'm sure someone else has already said this, but isn't it pretty counterintuitive to hit someone in order to teach them not to hit someone?


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
This:
_
I honestly have compassion for this mom. I believe her anger and her outburst was an expression of her frusteration with herself._

IS extremely condescending IMO. She's not frustrated with herself. She's frustrated with YOUR SON who is four and should know better.

I'm not saying that a 4 year old hitting is completely unprecedented. But it doesn't seem to me that you are taking it seriously enough and THAT is probably why she's pissed off.

*We just spoke...finally.*
She IS frusterated with herself and some of the choices she has made. We are good friends and I sensed that this was a big part of her email lashing out. She is OVER being mad at Sawyer. She said that she was done being mad as soon as she expressed anger at him. It's hard to give enough information to an online community that will tell the whole story...

What more should I be doing to take it more seriously? What is it that I am not doing that has you feeling that way? Come on now, I am posting in a forum that is notorius for being somewhat of a hornet's nest...I obviously want to get to the bottom of this...


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramama* 
No one is saying that hitting is okay or acceptable. It's understandable, that's it. Finding the reason for hitting can lead to a resolution. How would you suggest "instantly" putting a stop to it? Nothing is instant with children. It's just not.

THIS.

Couldn't have said it better...


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## jenmk (Apr 28, 2005)

Um . . . Kessed? The OP has expressed a LOT of concern over her son hitting. With some children, it takes a LONG time to grow out of undesirable/unacceptable behavior. It takes a LONG time to learn to control your impulses . . . regardless of the serious consequences. The OP has stated that the hitting is unacceptable and she's trying to find the cause. You find the cause to cure the problem, not just try to stamp out the symptoms, as you are suggesting here.

Plus, let me just say that you don't know what you would do _with your own child_ until you are experiencing it. Until you are in the middle of it, figuring it out. You can plan ahead, have great theories, but until you go through it, you just don't know what you will do. You just don't know.


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jenmk* 
Um . . . Kessed? The OP has expressed a LOT of concern over her son hitting. With some children, it takes a LONG time to grow out of undesirable/unacceptable behavior. It takes a LONG time to learn to control your impulses . . . regardless of the serious consequences. The OP has stated that the hitting is unacceptable and she's trying to find the cause. You find the cause to cure the problem, not just try to stamp out the symptoms, as you are suggesting here.

Plus, let me just say that you don't know what you would do _with your own child_ until you are experiencing it. Until you are in the middle of it, figuring it out. You can plan ahead, have great theories, but until you go through it, you just don't know what you will do. You just don't know.

Thankyou mama...

IMO, Gentle disclipline is about the bigger picture...not about immediate results. I am more concerned in raising my child to be a non-hitting adult.


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
Since hitting is something I think is completely unacceptable - I would pull out the big guns EVERY TIME my child hit. What that is will depend on the child and the family. Hitting is about the only thing we plan to use time-outs for. Because IMO if a 4yo hits another child then they aren't ready to be part of things. And if a 4yo had a serious consequence each and every single time they hit someone - they will stop pretty quickly.

I guess "hitting" is something that I would take VERY seriously - and I wouldn't subject other people's children to my child is she was a know "hitter". And that's what you say your DS is. He could actually hurt an 18mo with the size difference.

Hitting isn't OK. It's not OK for a parent to hit their child. And it's not OK for a child to hit someone else.

So I would say to do whatever will work for him to STOP the behavior immediately.

I'm all for "working on" good manners, and helping out around the house. But hitting is serious. And it's not OK.

HMMMM...I think my big guns are different than your big guns. I am pulling out my brand of "big guns"


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jenmk* 
Um . . . Kessed? The OP has expressed a LOT of concern over her son hitting. With some children, it takes a LONG time to grow out of undesirable/unacceptable behavior. It takes a LONG time to learn to control your impulses . . . regardless of the serious consequences. The OP has stated that the hitting is unacceptable and she's trying to find the cause. You find the cause to cure the problem, not just try to stamp out the symptoms, as you are suggesting here.

Plus, let me just say that you don't know what you would do _with your own child_ until you are experiencing it. Until you are in the middle of it, figuring it out. You can plan ahead, have great theories, but until you go through it, you just don't know what you will do. You just don't know.

I agree completely. I've known 4-year-olds who hit who were not punished, 4-year-olds who hit who were punished, and 4-year-olds who hit who were severely punished. Most 4-year-olds don't hit, but some do, and punishment doesn't do diddly to make them understand why hitting is wrong. I don't know if it even makes them stop hitting sooner. At least I haven't seen evidence of that. Also, someone here at MDC had a fabulous quote - "I don't parent to have a well-behaved child, I parent to have a well-behaved adult." Or something like that. But focusing on the long-term problem (anger, impulse control, lack of empathy, or some other cause) is IMO the key to this kind of thing. There's no great benefit in having a child who still hasn't been helped through whatever problem is causing the behavior, but who has learned how and when and whom to hit without getting punished. Obviously it is important to supervise his interactions with other children so the other children are protected if he gets angry and can't control it again.


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## clothdipemomof2boy (Nov 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I agree completely. I've known 4-year-olds who hit who were not punished, 4-year-olds who hit who were punished, and 4-year-olds who hit who were severely punished. Most 4-year-olds don't hit, but some do, and punishment doesn't do diddly to make them understand why hitting is wrong. I don't know if it even makes them stop hitting sooner. At least I haven't seen evidence of that. Also, someone here at MDC had a fabulous quote - "I don't parent to have a well-behaved child, I parent to have a well-behaved adult." Or something like that. But focusing on the long-term problem (anger, impulse control, lack of empathy, or some other cause) is IMO the key to this kind of thing. There's no great benefit in having a child who still hasn't been helped through whatever problem is causing the behavior, but who has learned how and when and whom to hit without getting punished. Obviously it is important to supervise his interactions with other children so the other children are protected if he gets angry and can't control it again.









:

and subbing


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

I honestly don't know a single four year old who hits. I know many, many four year olds, and have one myself.

It's hard to accept that it's just a coincidence that the folks with the hitting four year olds are the same ones arguing that the kids can't help it and that it's inappropriate to act firmly with them when they hit.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jenmk* 
Um . . . Kessed? The OP has expressed a LOT of concern over her son hitting. With some children, it takes a LONG time to grow out of undesirable/unacceptable behavior. It takes a LONG time to learn to control your impulses . . . regardless of the serious consequences. The OP has stated that the hitting is unacceptable and she's trying to find the cause. You find the cause to cure the problem, not just try to stamp out the symptoms, as you are suggesting here.

Plus, let me just say that you don't know what you would do _with your own child_ until you are experiencing it. Until you are in the middle of it, figuring it out. You can plan ahead, have great theories, but until you go through it, you just don't know what you will do. You just don't know.

In this thread she hasn't expressed 'concern'... She says it's a "phase" and tries to explain it away. In this thread she has completely minimized his actions.

I'm not sure how else to say this - but it is NOT acceptable for a 4yo to hit. If I had a 4yo who hit - they certainly wouldn't be having fun play dates with other kids, especially with a much younger kid.

The OP seems to think that it's OK for her son to hit because they are "working on it"... What the heck is there to work on? You just don't hit! It's not like remembering to say "thank-you" or "please". Those are things you work on. If you can't trust a 4yo not to hit - then they shouldn't be out of your site/reach so that you can prevent them from doing it.

I guess I don't understand why she's getting all this support and being told not to let her kid be watched by that 'evil' woman who had the audacity to tell her kid off for HITTING her toddler!!!! Her son is 4!!!!! And should know better.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I honestly don't know a single four year old who hits. I know many, many four year olds, and have one myself.

It's hard to accept that it's just a coincidence that the folks with the hitting four year olds are the same ones arguing that the kids can't help it and that it's inappropriate to act firmly with them when they hit.

Thank you!

I know quite a few kids this age. The only one who hits - has a mom who looks on helplessly and says "DS - please don't hit" as her son beats up the rest of the play group.

The rest of the moms have 3 and 4yos who might get mad - but have figured out how to keep their hands to themselves. And, BTW, none of these women spank or even really punish. The most that some of them do is an occasional time-out.


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## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I honestly don't know a single four year old who hits. I know many, many four year olds, and have one myself.

It's hard to accept that it's just a coincidence that the folks with the hitting four year olds are the same ones arguing that the kids can't help it and that it's inappropriate to act firmly with them when they hit.

Couldn't it also be that those parents with the four year olds who do hit have acted firmly (whatever that means for their family/child) and it's not working and regardless of what they may have thought about this situation before they were in it, they now realize that _their child_ cannot help it at this time and they need to come up with even more creative solutions as well as time to see this through...

I don't have a four year old, but even if my son was four... I just can't help but think I couldn't possibly know what it would be like to be dealing with a child who needed a longer time to "get" this particular concept unless I *was* dealing with that child.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *triscuitsmom* 
I don't have a four year old, but even if my son was four... I just can't help but think I couldn't possibly know what it would be like to be dealing with a child who needed a longer time to "get" this particular concept unless I *was* dealing with that child.

That's my problem with this thread.

I don't think that this is the kind of thing where it's OK for some kids to "take longer to get"... If a child really needs longer to understand that hitting isn't OK - then that needs to be remembered - and it's up to that child's parents to make sure that the kid doens't hit other kids.

It's "understandable" when a 2yo hits. But it isn't when a 4yo does.

Would it be "understandable" for me to hit my DH just because I got frustrated with him?


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
"I don't parent to have a well-behaved child, I parent to have a well-behaved adult."...

I do agree with this completely, and think it's a key point in parenting. Any child can be forced to 'behave' if enough fear and coercion are introduced. The end result is detrimental to that child's development however.

I think all of us have certain behaviors about which we are simply inflexible. Running toward a busy roadway is one which comes to mind. Even the most gentle of us will shriek, raise our voices, grab our child, scold, weep and admonish our toddler if we see her take off headed toward traffic. It is not acceptable, and we take pains to make that clear to the child. And in general, it works for us to do that. In fact, it works much better for gentle parents because our children are so unaccustomed to seeing us react with stern emotions and rigid guidelines. We don't give dd a lot of rules to follow, and the few that we do, she pays attention to.

Some of us choose to treat hitting with a similar approach. We teach that: HUH UH, that is NOT acceptable, you will NOT do that. I can't speak for other parents but we have never punished dd to make these points. We simply communicate honestly.

Pretty much that's what this other mother did. She didn't threaten violence. She spoke honestly. She reacted honestly. I'm sick and tired of your meaness. It's wrong. If you were my child I would spank you. It was a good, honest encounter that was proportional to the problem. They way the boy's reaction was described, it seemed to be a lesson that was sinking in and making an impression on him. Now that he sees his mother negating the other mother's message, that effect is probably lost.

Maybe some of you mothers are nonchalant about hitting and don't think seeing your toddler smacked by a four year old boy is a big deal. Maybe that's why your kids are still hitting.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I honestly don't know a single four year old who hits. I know many, many four year olds, and have one myself.

Really? Because I know people of all ages who hit.









Having had 4 children, 3 of whom have been 4, some hit. Some hit occasionally, some hit a lot, some hit because they've been hit, some hit because of impulse control...kids of all ages hit...just not ALL kids of all ages hit. I have a nearly 14 year old who has never(to my knowledge) ever hit but she did bite as a toddler.

The difficulty I have with the above situation is that the person doing the "discipline" was not the parent and was using a type of discipline that was known to not be acceptable to the parent.

This 4 year old has a new baby in the house. This causes stress for the 4 year old and they behave in ways that are not normal for them. Yes the mom is concerned about the hitting as any mom should be but being concerned doesn't mean that there really is anything to be overly concerned about. Yes hitting is non-negotiable but if you think that for all children just telling them in a serious/angry tone to stop will work after the first time...well I'm pretty sure I tried that at least 3 times.









When an adult has stress going on in their lives they go for councelling, have employee assistance programs, talk to their friends, visit online communities for advice, meditate, go to church and pray, go to the bar and drink etc. etc. and they STILL act out in ways that they never would when life is good and peaceful.

This of the 3 of my children who have been 4(and one still is) what I have found that works the best in the long run is to prevent it by avoiding situations in which they have the opportunity to hit(like supervising when they are with other children carefully, something that wasn't happening here) and just making it a non negotiable. Also talking about the underlying stressor, here it's a new sibling, and trying to introduce coping mechanisms.

I was just babysitting a 14 month old and I have to say that she was so much harder on my 2.5 year old and 4.5 year old than they ever were on her. I had to be on my guard all the time because she would grab their hair and pull, pinch their faces, scratching their cheeks..she would just do this. She was a baby. I was right there and my kids never hit her however had they done so as a reflex I would not have been surprised..being suddenly hurt causes a reaction that is primal.

Seeing as the baby was alone with the older children it is possible that something like this occurred. I'm not blaming the mom for leaving them alone because she might have just had to pee or something but you have to be present with little kids.

I think with proper guidance and gentle teaching a child can be led from hitting into other methods of dealing with being hit. It's a learning curve.


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## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
Would it be "understandable" for me to hit my DH just because I got frustrated with him?

But this child didn't just hit out of frustration... he hit because he *was* hit. Do I think the 18 month old meant to hurt him? I think we can't know why that 18 month old hit him because the Mom wasn't watching... however, even if she was just excited (my babe does this, I recognize it happens) that four year old, in the moment, just knew he was hit. Should he have hit back... honestly no... of course not.

I don't hit my partner when I'm mad at him... but it took me a LONG time before I didn't have the urge to hit my brother when he hurt me... and the first time my son bit me while nursing I almost tapped his face (stopped myself in the nick of time). He didn't mean to hurt me, and I'm an adult... but in that moment my brain went OWWWW and I was caught off guard...

A fourteen year old should have that impulse control that I managed to pull out... heck, even a nine year old... a four year old isn't even in school yet. They *should* know not to hit... but in a pain/caught off guard moment it's terribly unfair to expect them not to have the urge to react back and terribly uncompassionate to not try and help them work through learning this, not out of fear, but out of really getting it... we don't all develop at the same pace.

I don't think it's ok for a four year old to hit. I don't think it's abnormal in this situation for it to have happened. The Mama said that he has never hit this child before... she hit him, he was overwhelmed, lets address that, not assume he's a monster.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *triscuitsmom* 
But this child didn't just hit out of frustration... he hit because he *was* hit.


I do think that is relevant BUT the OP said that he is going through a hitting 'phase'.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soybeansmama* 
.

My ds has been going through a bit of a hitting phase. Usually its a swat at his little brothers hand for grabbing his toys or something. We are working with him everyday about finding another way to communicate his anger. It's like a knee jerk reaction for him and he really does feel bad afterwards.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *triscuitsmom* 
it took me a LONG time before I didn't have the urge to hit my brother when he hurt me...

I think fights between similar aged siblings is a bit of a different matter. Even eleven year old perfect angels will take a swing when they get going with a hated brother or sister after stuck in the house all day together on a rainy afternoon.

That's different than hitting a friend's baby sister when over for a visit.


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

congrats to all the mamas who have tried all the traditional approaches (time-outs, punishments/rewards, yelling, etc.) with sucess for changing unacceptable behaviors. We have thrown all these ideas out he window for the time being because they seem to be making things worse with this particular behavior. Never have I said that its ok for kids to hit... apparently, it's taking some posters "a little longer to get" the idea that there may be a different, more effective in the long run approach to things...


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

Again, the hitting phase, grabby hands, phase whatever you want to call it has been a problem with his newly mobile sibling up until this incident...


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soybeansmama* 
apparently, it's taking some posters "a little longer to get" the idea that there may be a different, more effective in the long run approach to things...









I think I'm understanding things quite well, thank you.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
I do think that is relevant BUT the OP said that he is going through a hitting 'phase'.

I think what the op described is common behaviour between siblings. Not acceptable but I have seen it happen.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soybeansmama* 
congrats to all the mamas who have tried all the traditional approaches (time-outs, punishments/rewards, yelling, etc.) with sucess for changing unacceptable behaviors. We have thrown all these ideas out he window for the time being because they seem to be making things worse with this particular behavior. Never have I said that its ok for kids to hit... apparently, it's taking some posters "a little longer to get" the idea that there may be a different, more effective in the long run approach to things...

Well then I feel sorry for his sibling who has to put up with this kind of abuse.

And I hope that you take steps to make sure that he is NEVER alone with other children where you can't prevent them from being abused.

You know your child hits... It is YOUR responsibility to make sure that he doesn't land any more blows on other poor children.

If it was a one of - then that's one thing. But since you know it's a habit - it is only your fault when he does it.


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## nichole (Feb 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I do agree with this completely, and think it's a key point in parenting. Any child can be forced to 'behave' if enough fear and coercion are introduced. The end result is detrimental to that child's development however.

I think all of us have certain behaviors about which we are simply inflexible. Running toward a busy roadway is one which comes to mind. Even the most gentle of us will shriek, raise our voices, grab our child, scold, weep and admonish our toddler if we see her take off headed toward traffic. It is not acceptable, and we take pains to make that clear to the child. And in general, it works for us to do that. In fact, it works much better for gentle parents because our children are so unaccustomed to seeing us react with stern emotions and rigid guidelines. We don't give dd a lot of rules to follow, and the few that we do, she pays attention to.

Some of us choose to treat hitting with a similar approach. We teach that: HUH UH, that is NOT acceptable, you will NOT do that. I can't speak for other parents but we have never punished dd to make these points. We simply communicate honestly.

Pretty much that's what this other mother did. She didn't threaten violence. She spoke honestly. She reacted honestly. I'm sick and tired of your meaness. It's wrong. If you were my child I would spank you. It was a good, honest encounter that was proportional to the problem. They way the boy's reaction was described, it seemed to be a lesson that was sinking in and making an impression on him. Now that he sees his mother negating the other mother's message, that effect is probably lost.

Maybe some of you mothers are nonchalant about hitting and don't think seeing your toddler smacked by a four year old boy is a big deal. Maybe that's why your kids are still hitting.

Okay now I can really see what you are saying. Thanks for posting that. But the last comment though, OUCH. lol. I'm not nonchalant, but after so many times of the mama bear coming out and overreacting, I just don't want to go there anymore. So yes, let them know it is serious with a firm tone, but no need to totally lose my cool.

I have a lot of neighborhood kids who like to play in my backyard. They are a lot older than my four year old. My four year old has never been violent to them. Most of his problem is with his little brother, and that is not an everyday occurance. I've seen a lot of these older children (anywhere from 5 to 8) resort to hitting when they get frustrated and don't know how to work toward a resolution. I do not tell their parents b/c I know they will get a "whooping" and nothing will change. Instead I've decided to be extra vigilant in supervising kids playing in my yard. I can intervene if somethings starts to escalate. It sucks b/c I used to be able to let Jason play in the back while I fix dinner. But now my new rule is, no kids in my back yard when I'm not back there too.

My point is that I don't think hitting is that uncommon. I don't think all four year olds are that mature. Some may be and part of that might be their personality. I don't think punishment or getting all worked up is the solution to hitting.

Jason never had a problem with hitting or pushing or whatever until we had another child. It had gotten so much better with time! I remember I used to be able to go to a playdate and just sit on the couch so even around other kids he was okay.

And oh my gosh, I'm sorry this is long, but I just have to add a few more things. My kids totally mimic one another. Today it was spitting. UGHHH. I can totally see how your four year old saw the baby hit, and thought it was a game, or just got impulsive and hit back.

Back on topic a bit: I would try to be civil and cut my losses with this friendship. Some kids just do not get along. Sounds like you guys disagreed on a lot of things. I hope you find some more supportive mama friends.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 







I think I'm understanding things quite well, thank you.

And she wonders why her child hits...

Is it possible that the fact that she doesn't take it seriously keep it happening???

Of course not.... It must just be the 'natural' way of thing...

FFS!

Hitting isn't OK.

For someone who is SOOOOO horrified that the other mom spanks - you're certainly OK with your kid hitting other kids.


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## nichole (Feb 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
Well then I feel sorry for his sibling who has to put up with this kind of abuse.

And I hope that you take steps to make sure that he is NEVER alone with other children where you can't prevent them from being abused.

You know your child hits... It is YOUR responsibility to make sure that he doesn't land any more blows on other poor children.

If it was a one of - then that's one thing. But since you know it's a habit - it is only your fault when he does it.

Yeah for a while I could not leave my two kids in the same room!!!


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I do agree with this completely, and think it's a key point in parenting. Any child can be forced to 'behave' if enough fear and coercion are introduced. The end result is detrimental to that child's development however.

I think all of us have certain behaviors about which we are simply inflexible. Running toward a busy roadway is one which comes to mind. Even the most gentle of us will shriek, raise our voices, grab our child, scold, weep and admonish our toddler if we see her take off headed toward traffic. It is not acceptable, and we take pains to make that clear to the child. And in general, it works for us to do that. In fact, it works much better for gentle parents because our children are so unaccustomed to seeing us react with stern emotions and rigid guidelines. We don't give dd a lot of rules to follow, and the few that we do, she pays attention to.

Some of us choose to treat hitting with a similar approach. We teach that: HUH UH, that is NOT acceptable, you will NOT do that. I can't speak for other parents but we have never punished dd to make these points. We simply communicate honestly.

Pretty much that's what this other mother did. She didn't threaten violence. She spoke honestly. She reacted honestly. I'm sick and tired of your meaness. It's wrong. If you were my child I would spank you. It was a good, honest encounter that was proportional to the problem. They way the boy's reaction was described, it seemed to be a lesson that was sinking in and making an impression on him. Now that he sees his mother negating the other mother's message, that effect is probably lost.

Maybe some of you mothers are nonchalant about hitting and don't think seeing your toddler smacked by a four year old boy is a big deal. Maybe that's why your kids are still hitting.

I think you said this really well.

Hitting just isn't OK. It's not OK for a parent to hit a child, and it's NOT OK for a child to hit another child.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nichole* 
Yeah for a while I could not leave my two kids in the same room!!!

I babysit 2yo twins and a 4.5yo... I have a 18mo.

I don't leave them alone.

Part of my job is to protect them from each other.


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## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
I do think that is relevant BUT the OP said that he is going through a hitting 'phase'.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I think fights between similar aged siblings is a bit of a different matter. Even eleven year old perfect angels will take a swing when they get going with a hated brother or sister after stuck in the house all day together on a rainy afternoon.

That's different than hitting a friend's baby sister when over for a visit.

OK, but the Mama said this is a new thing that he hit this child. It usually IS his sibling unless I'm reading the pp on this thread wrong...

If I hit my baby (I didn't, but if I had) when he had bitten me that first time it would have been because I was shocked and surprised and reacting out of impulse. If I hit someone who was threatening me physically it would be self defense. If I hit someone for pissing me off it would be for a completely different reason than the above two examples.

My point is that people hit for different reasons. His mama has said over and over that this has been aimed at his sibling not anyone else up until now, and yet people are jumping all over her that she should be protecting all the other children he's around.

He was hit, he hit out of impulse. At home he hits his sibling on a more regular basis. Neither are OK... but they aren't the same thing, so why are people treating it as such?

Both behaviours are ones he needs to learn not to act on. But lets look at the bigger picture, this is not a child who is maliciously attacking every child he meets...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soybeansmama* 
Again, the hitting phase, grabby hands, phase whatever you want to call it has been a problem with his newly mobile sibling up until this incident...


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## jenmk (Apr 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Maybe some of you mothers are nonchalant about hitting and don't think seeing your toddler smacked by a four year old boy is a big deal. Maybe that's why your kids are still hitting.

Wow.

I guess you got us there.

Gee, maybe if everyone was like you no child would ever hit more than once.

Do you give seminars?


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## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
And she wonders why her child hits...

Is it possible that the fact that she doesn't take it seriously keep it happening???

Of course not.... It must just be the 'natural' way of thing...

FFS!

Hitting isn't OK.

For someone who is SOOOOO horrified that the other mom spanks - you're certainly OK with your kid hitting other kids.

She hasn't said it's OK and she IS looking for solutions. She has even said that she's tried some of the things being suggested and they aren't working...

And for what it's worth I find it absolutely ridiculous to compare a four year old who has hit a child who is not his sibling (it's not ok to hit siblings, but it's a different reasoning set than another child) *once* and she hit him first... with a grown adult hitting her own children who are too young to even grasp the full concept why...


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jenmk* 
Do you give seminars?

No, just internet advice. It's free to take or leave as you see fit.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *triscuitsmom* 
OK, but the Mama said this is a new thing that he hit this child. *It usually IS his sibling* unless I'm reading the pp on this thread wrong...


Quote:

My point is that people hit for different reasons. *His mama has said over and over that this has been aimed at his sibling* not anyone else up until now, and yet people are jumping all over her that she should be protecting all the other children he's around.
[/QUOTE]

Why the heck would it be OK for him to hit *HIS* sibling????????

If it's OK for him to hit 1 baby - why not a different baby??

HITTING ISN'T OK. IT'S NOT!!!!!

HOW HARD IS THAT TO UNDERSTAND??????? IT'S NOT OK FOR HIM TO HIT. ANYONE!!!!!!!!!!!


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *triscuitsmom* 

Both behaviours are ones he needs to learn not to act on. But lets look at the bigger picture, this is not a child who is maliciously attacking every child he meets...


I think this is key. This is not an out of control child who hits everyone all the time...he occasionally bats at his siblings hand when he takes a toy away..mom intervenes and explains what is wrong.

This event with the 18 mos old is a different situation. And it was unsupervised so really we have no idea what happened.

I think it is perfectly normal to react with anger when hurt. It was normal for the 4 year old and it was normal for the mother of the 18 month old. This is not the point really though. The point is this mother took her anger to a level that shouldn't be directed at ones own children(shaming and threatening)on a child in her care. This is inappropriate no matter what the child's infraction. If an adult cannot control her impulse when angry why is such behaviour expected of a 4 year old?

I think OP that the hitting problem is something that will go away with time...he will get over the stress of the new baby, adjust as the rest of your family adjusts and all will be over. Just keep a close eye on the sibs as I'm sure you already do and prevent what you can and continue to teach gentle hands and body control. Model gentleness and he will follow in kind.

Meanwhile, get a new sitter for him. I think for the sake of the friendship you need to not depend on her for childcare.


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## my3peanuts (Nov 25, 2006)

I think the entire situation was blown way out of proportion by both of you. The only thing I'd be uspet over is the fact that your friend said she'd have spanked your son if he was her kid. That's it.

Your son hit her baby. She naturally is upset.

The title of your post is, "I would spank you if you were my child!" which leads me to believe that is what your upset over but it doesn't really sound like that's what is even making you mad. It seems like what's upsetting you is that she just doesn't understand that "kids hit! It's just what they do sometimes and we're working on it!" I'm sure she understands that but it doesn't change the fact that she's upset that your 4 year old hit her dd.

It sounds like you're more frustrated with the fact that you aren't a spanker and so you think your kids won't hit and the only kids that hit are those who's parents spank them and because your son hits and you aren't a spanker it's harder to say, "Look, because I don't spank my kids are better behaved!" Because it really seems to me like you're trying to prove who the better parent is here.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:

Why the heck would it be OK for him to hit *HIS* sibling????????

If it's OK for him to hit 1 baby - why not a different baby??

HITTING ISN'T OK. IT'S NOT!!!!!

HOW HARD IS THAT TO UNDERSTAND??????? IT'S NOT OK FOR HIM TO HIT. ANYONE!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't think anyone said it was ok to hit his sibling..they said it was a normal behaviour..and it is. Acceptable, no. Normal, yeah.

The thing about kids is, until they learn, they don't know. And sometimes it takes a while to teach the lesson. Meanwhile you watch the kids and keep trying.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I honestly don't know a single four year old who hits. I know many, many four year olds, and have one myself.

It's hard to accept that it's just a coincidence that the folks with the hitting four year olds are the same ones arguing that the kids can't help it and that it's inappropriate to act firmly with them when they hit.

My daughter didn't hit when she was four, but I know several four-year-olds who did.

Oh, I have a question too. What does "act firmly" mean?


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## zipworth (Jun 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
Since hitting is something I think is completely unacceptable - I would pull out the big guns EVERY TIME my child hit. What that is will depend on the child and the family. Hitting is about the only thing we plan to use time-outs for. Because IMO if a 4yo hits another child then they aren't ready to be part of things. And if a 4yo had a serious consequence each and every single time they hit someone - they will stop pretty quickly.

I guess "hitting" is something that I would take VERY seriously - and I wouldn't subject other people's children to my child is she was a know "hitter". And that's what you say your DS is. He could actually hurt an 18mo with the size difference.

Hitting isn't OK. It's not OK for a parent to hit their child. And it's not OK for a child to hit someone else. So I would say to do whatever will work for him to STOP the behavior immediately.

I'm all for "working on" good manners, and helping out around the house. But hitting is serious. And it's not OK.


What do you mean by 'Big Guns'?

I have worked in childcare since the eighties, including 6.5 years of teaching preschool, and Kindergarden. It is the rare 4 year old that doesn't hit ever! I have seen just about every method of 'Big Guns' used on children to stop undesirable behaviour, and some 4 year olds take longer than others to learn control their impulsive behaviour. Some children take repeated firm reminders to learn not to hit. I guess I really don't see what the big deal is. I think he reacted the way a lot of 4 year olds would to be honest. It doesn't make it o.k. Doesn't anyone fond it ironic that a grown woman had trouble not hitting the OP's child, but she expected him to have the same amount of control over his 4 year old impulses? I have to wonder how many 4 year olds some of you have been around?


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## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

Why the heck would it be OK for him to hit *HIS* sibling????????

If it's OK for him to hit 1 baby - why not a different baby??

HITTING ISN'T OK. IT'S NOT!!!!!

HOW HARD IS THAT TO UNDERSTAND??????? IT'S NOT OK FOR HIM TO HIT. ANYONE!!!!!!!!!!![/QUOTE]

How hard is it to understand that she doesn't think it is??? And that I don't? I have said *over and over* I don't. In fact, I wasn't even the one that said there was a difference with siblings, and I pointed that out in my post.

The fact is this child hits. The fact is he has never hit a child outside of his home before now so it is ridiculous to assume that he's waiting to attack any other child. And when he did hit, it was not unprovoked from his perspective. AND they were unsupervised. I'm sorry, that is not his mothers fault. I agree he needs to be watched to make sure younger children (or anyone in general) is not hurt, but his caregiver (who was not his mother) did not do this, and during the time she was not doing this two children hit, not just one.

There are two things his mother addressed in her first post. One was her upset at her friend. I would be too. My children are not to be threatened. I was told by someone who was close in my life that if I were her child she'd spank me when I was younger and you can bet it felt very threatening. That is not OK in my books, and it appears it's not OK for this Mama either. It doesn't matter whether you'd let other people than you or your childs other parent if they have one threaten your child(ren) this Mama and I don't... end of story, it's not OK. She didn't say she couldn't be upset. She was upset she threatened him.

The other thing she addressed was that her son was having issues with controlling his impulse to hit in certain situations with his sibling. That certainly does need to be addressed but the Mama is not saying it's fine, she's saying she's tried a lot of things and so far he's not out of it yet.

To insinuate because her child learns differently than your child and the same techniques aren't working is her fault is unfair. She has given some ideas for things she has done, she understands this can't continue to happen, and supervising can cut down a lot but if the child is playing next to his brother he can hit before she can stop him. She could stop them from being anywhere near each other but I think that's likely to be more damaging for them both if it were even physically possible. Working on the why and respecting this childs differing needs for learning this concept will get her a lot further in the long run.


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## ShannonT (Dec 6, 2007)

You know, my 4 year old nephew hits all the time. And it's been happening with more frequency since his dad started hitting him. Especially ironic when he gets spanked for hitting. Especially when my brother







yells "Don't hit me!" and then spanks. Coincidence?







:

OP, could your son have witnessed your friend spanking any of her kids? Could this hitting phase have been set off by something like that?

If she's a hitter, it's possible. And it could be affecting his behavior.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Glad you talked to her and are working things out. I think that it will help in the future that she knows that you were upset. A little tiff never hurt anyone.









It does seem like you two are having a "who's the better parent" kind of relationship. I've been in those and they're really frustrating. Especially if you're the one constantly defending yourself. I had one friend that I loved, but always tried to discipline my children and get me to put them into a daycare for a few hours so we could shop







She also wanted me to force them to eat, etc. I didn't want to be like her, but apparently, she thought I had no clue how to do things. Anyway, I can relate.

Lisa


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisa49* 
Glad you talked to her and are working things out. I think that it will help in the future that she knows that you were upset. A little tiff never hurt anyone.









It does seem like you two are having a "who's the better parent" kind of relationship. I've been in those and they're really frustrating. Especially if you're the one constantly defending yourself. I had one friend that I loved, but always tried to discipline my children and get me to put them into a daycare for a few hours so we could shop







She also wanted me to force them to eat, etc. I didn't want to be like her, but apparently, she thought I had no clue how to do things. Anyway, I can relate.

Lisa

We have learned a lot from eachother...we have had some non spoken, pent up frusterations with eachother that were talked about for the first time today. She feels defensive a lot...we also talked about that. We are going to have playtime at her house on those occasions that she can bring him home. We are going to take a few weeks off though to clear the air.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soybeansmama* 
We have learned a lot from eachother...we have had some non spoken, pent up frusterations with eachother that were talked about for the first time today. She feels defensive a lot...we also talked about that. We are going to have playtime at her house on those occasions that she can bring him home. We are going to take a few weeks off though to clear the air.

wonderful! glad to hear you have worked things out!


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zipworth* 
What do you mean by 'Big Guns'?


Whatever works for that child.

I would use the same tactics that I would use to prevent my child from running into traffic. Or some other dangerous activity.

Let's change the situation a bit. Let's say this 4yo figured out how to unbuckle his car seat? And let's say that he did this while the OP's friend was driving him. And let's say that she flipped out about it. fWould people say things like "Some kids just take longer to learn to stay in their car seat" or "It's natural and undertandable - she totally over reacted"?


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Oh, I have a question too. What does "act firmly" mean?

This has been covered already. But how the friend reacted would be one example. She let him know how wrong the hitting was.

For me it would be to not conceal my anger and disappointment from the child, but to allow him to see how upsetting the hitting was for me. I wouldn't talk to him or reason with him or say things like 'hands are for hugging in our home!' I would square off with him and say "No, absolutely not. We do NOT hit in this home. EVER. You need to go home right now and you're not to come back for the rest of the day."

And I would arrange for him to leave my home. After that incident I wouldn't have him back except with arrangments that he could be dropped off immediately in the case of further hitting.

We had a similar problem with our neighbor's 3 yo. This child was spanked, shamed, grounded, yelled at... Nothing worked (surprise!) and she was a big time hitter. After one time of being sent home from my house she has never hit (my child, anyway) again.

Kids know what time of day it is. They know what they can get away with and what they can't.

ETA: I'm really glad you (OP) are working things out with your friend also. The incident ended up being way overblown.


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## pottermama (Jun 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramama* 
I respectfully disagree here. We have to keep in mind that this 4yo has an infant sibling. These kind of stressors can cause problems with hitting, bed-wetting, temper tantrums, and all sorts of stuff. I don't think that phases are so clear-cut. A child dealing with a newly-mobile sibling may resort to hitting in order to protect his space and his stuff. In this instance it's totally understandable to go through a hitting phase at 4. He's got a lot of new things to deal with and I know that my 4yo can easily become overloaded.

Soybeansmama, I LOVE the art idea! I may give it a try with my 4yo!

Yarngoddess, your post just truly rocked. I couldn't agree more!









: My dd1 is 4 and has a new sibling who is just learning to crawl. She has never been a hitter, but now she does it every once in a while when her space is being intruded. It doesn't make it right but she is a child who is learning how to respond in different situations.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
Hitting is different. It isn't OK for a child to hit - no matter what the "stressors" are...

Protecting their stuff is a total bogus argument to excuse something which isn't acceptable...

It is black and white. And children can understand that. Hitting isn't allowed. It just isn't.

It isn't okay for a child to hit but that doesn't mean a child won't make a mistake. Isn't one of the maxims of child behavior, " Children learn by doing, so don't expect to approve of everything they do" ?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
In this thread she hasn't expressed 'concern'... She says it's a "phase" and tries to explain it away. In this thread she has completely minimized his actions.

I'm not sure how else to say this - but it is NOT acceptable for a 4yo to hit. If I had a 4yo who hit - they certainly wouldn't be having fun play dates with other kids, especially with a much younger kid.

The OP seems to think that it's OK for her son to hit because they are "working on it"... What the heck is there to work on? You just don't hit! It's not like remembering to say "thank-you" or "please". Those are things you work on. If you can't trust a 4yo not to hit - then they shouldn't be out of your site/reach so that you can prevent them from doing it.

I guess I don't understand why she's getting all this support and being told not to let her kid be watched by that 'evil' woman who had the audacity to tell her kid off for HITTING her toddler!!!! Her son is 4!!!!! And should know better.

The only way for a child to learn not to do something is to work on it with them. If anger is making them hit, finding another way to express that anger is the only way to solve a problem long term. A 4 year old is still young. That doesn't excuse hitting but I simply don't think having them hold in their anger is good either. Working with them helps them to find other outlets. Telling them it's not okay to hit but then telling them you feel like hitting them is a total contradiction.


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## zipworth (Jun 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
Whatever works for that child.

I would use the same tactics that I would use to prevent my child from running into traffic. Or some other dangerous activity.

Let's change the situation a bit. Let's say this 4yo figured out how to unbuckle his car seat? And let's say that he did this while the OP's friend was driving him. And let's say that she flipped out about it. fWould people say things like "Some kids just take longer to learn to stay in their car seat" or "It's natural and undertandable - she totally over reacted"?

This actually isn't an uncommon scenario with 4 year olds, but pulling over the car and buckling them back in; talking to police officers; getting a new car seat that is difficult to unbuckle; getting a sitter instead of bringing the child; having an adult sit in the back with the child.....there are many options besides threatening to hit a child.









OP I am really glad you seem to have come to some sort of peaceful resolution with your friend. Parenting can be so intense and emotional!


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pottermama* 
The only way for a child to learn not to do something is to work on it with them. If anger is making them hit, finding another way to express that anger is the only way to solve a problem long term. A 4 year old is still young. That doesn't excuse hitting but I simply don't think having them hold in their anger is good either. Working with them helps them to find other outlets. Telling them it's not okay to hit but then telling them you feel like hitting them is a total contradiction.


I don't think it's acceptable to subject other children to being hit while he figures out a better way to deal with his anger...

It is possible to stop the hitting by doing something drastic - like a time-out, or going home EVERY time - and then come up with better ways to deal with anger/frustration second.

I think that it's horrible that the OP is letting her new baby be hit "swiped at" on a regular basis while her son "figures it out". That's not parenting - that's ridiculous.

The OPs son needs to learn right now, that he can't hit other people. Deal with that first - and then move on.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zipworth* 
This actually isn't an uncommon scenario with 4 year olds, but pulling over the car and buckling them back in; talking to police officers; getting a new car seat that is difficult to unbuckle; getting a sitter instead of bringing the child; having an adult sit in the back with the child.....*there are many options besides threatening to hit a child.







*

No one threatened to hit the child!!!!!!!!!!

The OP's friend indicated to the boy how seriously she took having her baby hit - by telling him how she'd react if he was her son. The OP's son probably knows that his friend gets spanked for really serious things. And so - she let him know how seriously she took this.

According to the OP - the mother never said she'd hit him the next time or anything like that.


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
I don't think it's acceptable to subject other children to being hit while he figures out a better way to deal with his anger...

It is possible to stop the hitting by doing something drastic - like a time-out, or going home EVERY time - and then come up with better ways to deal with anger/frustration second.

I think that it's horrible that the OP is letting her new baby be hit "swiped at" on a regular basis while her son "figures it out". That's not parenting - that's ridiculous.

The OPs son needs to learn right now, that he can't hit other people. Deal with that first - and then move on.

Kessed, this is just an aweful thing to say. Of course I am not letting my child be hit...Sawyer hasn't actually made contact with his brothers body in a few weeks because I am always there to stop it or redirect it or remove one of them from the situation.

It really shocks me that there is such a tone here.

This is a Gentle Discipline forum not a "say what ever kind of mean crap you want because you're never going to meet these people in real life" forum.

Go hug a tree or pet a kitten or get your love tank filled however you need to...You seem to be feeling a bit snarkalicious.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soybeansmama* 
Kessed, this is just an aweful thing to say. Of course I am not letting my child be hit...Sawyer hasn't actually made contact with his brothers body in a few weeks because I am always there to stop it or redirect it or remove one of them from the situation.

That's not the impression you give in your OP. The words you chose indicate that it's currently a regular thing for your DS1 to hit your DS2.

Quote:

It really shocks me that there is such a tone here.

This is a Gentle Discipline forum not a "say what ever kind of mean crap you want because you're never going to meet these people in real life" forum.
GD doesn't mean "no discipline"... And that's what you're advocating. If your child is still hitting - at least weeks after he started - then you aren't doing anything about it.

And I'm not saying mean stuff. I'm saying the truth.

My tone is because I CANNOT believe that you are upset because the other woman yelled at your son AFTER he HIT!!!!!!! her baby.

Quote:

Go hug a tree or pet a kitten or get your love tank filled however you need to...You seem to be feeling a bit snarkalicious.
Whatever...


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## tatermom (Jun 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soybeansmama* 
Kessed, this is just an aweful thing to say. Of course I am not letting my child be hit...Sawyer hasn't actually made contact with his brothers body in a few weeks because I am always there to stop it or redirect it or remove one of them from the situation.

It really shocks me that there is such a tone here.

This is a Gentle Discipline forum not a "say what ever kind of mean crap you want because you're never going to meet these people in real life" forum.

Go hug a tree or pet a kitten or get your love tank filled however you need to...You seem to be feeling a bit snarkalicious.

I agree! I can't believe how mean this thread has gotten! OP, I just wanted to say that I love the idea of the poster you are making with your DS-- what a nice, positive project to work on with him! I have a 3 yo and a 10 mo and the 3 yo has definitely been on the defensive, and quick to decide that the baby is a "threat" to him since the DS2 has become mobile. DS2 will try to tackle DS1, pull his hair, and try to grab DS1's toy from him (obviously I intervene when this happens!), and it's very very hard for DS1 to resist hitting or pushing DS2 in return-- and I don't blame him at all for having those impulses. Even a baby can really hurt you! Our big problem was DS1 pushing DS2 if he feels threatened, and one idea we had was to put "no pushing" signs all over the house. DS1 helped me write them, and we refer to them a lot, both when DS1 tries to push DS2 and when DS2 tackles DS1 (though of course the baby doesn't understand, but it helps DS1 to see that DS2 is being told the same rules). Just an idea for you...

Good luck, OP. I'm glad you are working things out with your friend. I agree that mothering can be a lonely business, so friends, even those who have different parenting styles, should be cherished. I hope you and your friend can come to a place where you agree to disagree on some topics and to respect each other. And I'm sorry for the responses here from people who do not understand how different kids of the same age can be from one another, and how stressful it can be on a preschooler who has a newly mobile sibling.


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

love the idea and I can see this being more of a tactic that would work for us.
thanks


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## lanamommyphd07 (Feb 14, 2007)

so I got to wondering, but only skimmed over the last several posts since they seemed uh, mean. Here's the scenario as I took it in:
four year old kid hits, and has been hitting at home, much to the dismay of mom who does not model hitting.
four year old regularly plays with other children who, per their mother, are spanked. four year old observes this---perhaps frequently--and subsequently hits at their house too.....wonder where he learned it after all?
hmmmmmm.......


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## mykdsmomy (Oct 10, 2004)

OP~ I'm so glad you're working things out with your friend. You are right when you said we dont really know the whole story. I'm sure you have a history with her and know her better than we can understand on the internet









I also wanted to add that I was the perfect parent before I had children (notice I said children and not child. I was pretty perfect when I had one.....a little less than perfect when I had two and then became very humble after the third.
We all have different parenting styles. We all have children with different personalities and quirks.
While I agree that hitting is NOT ok....it DOES happen. Once again....these are CHILDREN we are talking about. They are still learning social behavior. They are still learning to control their emotions.
To anyone that has a child that doesnt it or babysits children that never hit......count yourself very lucky!
My oldest (as I said earlier) never hit. I thought parents of children who were aggresive were not parented well. I figured the parents must be doing something wrong.
As I've traveled down the parenting road a little further, I've come to realize that all the perfect parenting in the world is not necessarily going to "fix" every challenge a child faces instantly! We are working on not hitting with my four year old. He has challenges. He is unable to regulate himself. His first reaction is to hit or throw something. My other children didnt do this and we parented them all exactly the same. It's not something my ds4 has "fixed" yet. He cant fix it...yet.

Again, I feel the need to reiterate that we dont condone hitting.....we make it perfectly clear that hitting is always inappropriate.....but I wouldnt act as if a child commited a crime if a four year old hit one of my children.......
Maybe I'm getting old....but if I had a dime for every time one of my kids has been on the receiving end of a hit or a push from another child (parks, church, friends, play yards, etc), I'd be pretty rich.


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## mykdsmomy (Oct 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
I don't think it's acceptable to subject other children to being hit while he figures out a better way to deal with his anger...

It is possible to stop the hitting by doing something drastic - like a time-out, or going home EVERY time - and then come up with better ways to deal with anger/frustration second.

I think that it's horrible that the OP is letting her new baby be hit "swiped at" on a regular basis while her son "figures it out". That's not parenting - that's ridiculous.

The OPs son needs to learn right now, that he can't hit other people. Deal with that first - and then move on.

Kessed~ respectfully, you have one child. The advice that you gave here is very black and white. It sounds great in theory but it may not be realistic.


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## tatermom (Jun 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mykdsmomy* 
Kessed~ respectfully, you have one child. The advice that you gave here is very black and white. It sounds great in theory but it may not be realistic.

I agree. I thought I had it all figured out before DS2 was born, and then I discovered that it is *hard* to help your kids navigate their sibling relationship. You have to walk a fine line between protecting the younger one and not making the older one resent his/her younger sibling (more than perhaps he/she already does). When the baby is invading his brother's space, it's up to us to teach the older child how to handle those situations-- but it's a learning process that takes time. For a preschooler, learning not to hit is important, but from what I've seen it's much harder to refrain from hitting when it's your own sibling who is constantly in your face, in your stuff, and getting into everything that you (as a young child) value. My very sweet gentle DS1 is struggling with learning the boundaries with his "rough and tumble" baby brother. In the OP's case, her younger DC is *newly* mobile so this is a new experience for her older child and it will take time to learn how to always keep those impluses in check (and I have memories of hitting and kicking my younger brother (2 years younger) when I was even 10 years old, so obviously it took me a long time, too!).

I agree with a pp who pointed out that the hitting incident at the friend's house should be considered separately from the sibling conflicts, other than that perhaps her DS is more easily triggered lately because of dealing with the sibling stress at home. The OP's DS does not sound like a "hitter" to me; this was a one time event (outside the home) in response to being hit by the younger child. I think this incident (and the whole discussion) has been really overblown, but I just wanted to point out some of the sibling difficulties since we're in the midst of it here ourselves.


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## jsnv (Jan 2, 2007)

Great posts mykdsmomy!


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## SheepNumber97245 (Apr 20, 2007)

I must say that if I saw another child hit my baby I'd probably be pretty pissed off. I don't believe in spanking but i don't think the phrase "i would spank you if you were my child." is really that bad. The way she reacted afterwards is pretty childish though. If anything, saying that to your son really just made him appreciate a momma like you even more!


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## SheepNumber97245 (Apr 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lanamommyphd07* 
so I got to wondering, but only skimmed over the last several posts since they seemed uh, mean. Here's the scenario as I took it in:
four year old kid hits, and has been hitting at home, much to the dismay of mom who does not model hitting.
four year old regularly plays with other children who, per their mother, are spanked. four year old observes this---perhaps frequently--and subsequently hits at their house too.....wonder where he learned it after all?
hmmmmmm.......

haha..... yeah that is a VERY good point...


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## zipworth (Jun 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
No one threatened to hit the child!!!!!!!!!!

The OP's friend indicated to the boy how seriously she took having her baby hit - by telling him how she'd react if he was her son. The OP's son probably knows that his friend gets spanked for really serious things. And so - she let him know how seriously she took this.

According to the OP - the mother never said she'd hit him the next time or anything like that.

True, true







But spanking isn't o.k., and I don't think what she said to the OP's child was o.k. either. But, she was reacting to an upsetting situation, and she didn't hit him. It's forgivable in my books, but, my child would'nt be staying there without me anymore.

Kessed, a lot of four year olds go through hitting phases. They are unpleasant and very stressful. There is no quick fix all of the time, and sometimes things happen too quickly to intervene. Some children hit for attention, and that is even more difficult to correct, because the more you respond negatively and harshly, the more the child will continue to do it.

The OP is handling her sons behaviour in a manner that will see long term results, and she is obviously concerned about her son's behaviour, so please give her a break


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## jenmk (Apr 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
GD doesn't mean "no discipline"... And that's what you're advocating. If your child is still hitting - at least weeks after he started - then you aren't doing anything about it.

Honestly, Kessed, you are speaking from a place of no experience. You have one child who is 18 months old. You have great theories of how you would nip this behavior in the bud if your child were to start, but in reality, if you were faced with a child who started hitting and didn't stop right away, you really have no clue what you would do. And I hope your child is not like that because I can tell you (and the OP has told us) that it's no picnic. It sucks to have a child who is hitting, or in my case pushing, a younger sibling over and over again. For months. For years. No. Matter. What. You. Do. It sucks.

And you know what, Kessed? Not all bad behavior is due to parenting, discipline, or lack thereof, as you wholeheartedly believe right now. Of course that's what you believe. You have one 18 month old child. You have it easy, mama. And I do hope that it continues that way for you.

But some children cannot control their impulses. And it has nothing to do with parenting. My oldest pushes. He's done it for about 3 years, and he cannot control it. He has to push. I recently discovered that he has sensory processing issues. (Good god, there's a reason why he pushes! What a relief . . . and poor boy for getting into trouble for something he couldn't control.) There are physical "exercises" I can do now with him to fulfill his sensory needs so he will no longer have the need to push. But his pushing--which has been years of frustration, lots of discipline, big reactions, small reactions, every tactic we could think of, and from the start a very clear message that pushing is not okay, not ever okay, and times of incredible rage at his behavior--has nothing to do with my parenting. You, from your point of view on this thread, would undoubtedly condemn me as a terrible parent who obviously is not concerned that my child is hurting other children because this behavior lasted more that a couple of weeks. You would assume that I have done nothing about it. And you would be entirely wrong. As you are about the OP.

You have great ideals, Kessed, ideals that we all share that hitting is not okay no matter what, but you are out of the realm of your knowledge and experience here. Some children cannot control their impulses. Some learn to control it quite quickly. Some take a long time. Some can't do it at all. Each child develops at his or her own rate. You can't speed that up, no matter how much you dislike or disapprove of any behavior.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I hear people saying, "I simply wouldn't allow it" not realizing that it isn't that simple. You can not allow things and express anger when they happen, and they can still happen. This is life with kids. At that point, you have the choice to punish or to work on what's causing the behavior. I don't think punishment works. That doesn't mean I don't believe punishment works but I'd use it in some cases anyway. I simply don't believe it works.


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## pottermama (Jun 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tatermom* 
I agree! I can't believe how mean this thread has gotten! OP, I just wanted to say that I love the idea of the poster you are making with your DS-- what a nice, positive project to work on with him!

I love the idea too! I might use it too.









Soybeansmama- I am so happy that you and your friend are working through this. It is hard with such different parenting styles but sometimes the friendships that challenge us the most are the ones that allow us to grow more together.







and good luck with the hitting.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mykdsmomy* 
I also wanted to add that I was the perfect parent before I had children (notice I said children and not child. I was pretty perfect when I had one.....a little less than perfect when I had two and then became very humble after the third.
We all have different parenting styles. We all have children with different personalities and quirks.
While I agree that hitting is NOT ok....it DOES happen. Once again....these are CHILDREN we are talking about. They are still learning social behavior. They are still learning to control their emotions.
To anyone that has a child that doesnt it or babysits children that never hit......count yourself very lucky!
My oldest (as I said earlier) never hit. I thought parents of children who were aggresive were not parented well. I figured the parents must be doing something wrong.
As I've traveled down the parenting road a little further, I've come to realize that all the perfect parenting in the world is not necessarily going to "fix" every challenge a child faces instantly! We are working on not hitting with my four year old. He has challenges. He is unable to regulate himself. His first reaction is to hit or throw something. My other children didnt do this and we parented them all exactly the same. It's not something my ds4 has "fixed" yet. He cant fix it...yet.

Again, I feel the need to reiterate that we dont condone hitting.....we make it perfectly clear that hitting is always inappropriate.....but I wouldnt act as if a child commited a crime if a four year old hit one of my children.......
Maybe I'm getting old....but if I had a dime for every time one of my kids has been on the receiving end of a hit or a push from another child (parks, church, friends, play yards, etc), I'd be pretty rich.









I totally agree with this and other posts like jen's.
I recall being really upset when big kids were "mean" to my baby. Now I've been on the other side. I have felt really really awful when my older son has done something like this, and I always apologize and deal with it. But I _also_ get upset when the other parent acts like we are a horrible parent of child- even as I'm apologizing and talking and dealing with it. To me it is just very insensitive and well, clueless.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

I think that telling a child that you would spank him if he were your child is an incredibly mean-spirited borderline abusive thing to say. Could I tell one of my children's friends "If you were my child I'd drive you to a gas station in Kansas and leave you there?" Goodness, I hope not!

This thread has become very judgmental. Come on, help a mama out! OP has asked several posters several times for specific suggestions (how to "immediately put a stop to it," what "big guns" are, etc.) and these same posters have come back and just keep regurgitating their vitriolic discourse, while offering nothing in the way of support or any information that is of value to any mother who may have the same issues with their 4yo.

Several posters have pointed out (myself included) that no one is saying that hitting is okay, only to be responded to with "hitting is not OK!" Seriously, people, read the replies before typing a response. We're adults here and we should be able to support a mother without resorting to copious amounts of capital letters and exclamation points.

We are not supposed to be judging OP here, and OP doesn't not have to live up to anyone's expectation in "how seriously" she takes the incident, how remorseful she is, if she is *really* working on it, whether it's a problem or a "phase." So don't act like she needs to appease you, when such demands are standing in the way of actually finding a remedy for the situtation.

For myself, the OP clearly sees this as a problem (but wait, determining that means that you actually have to *read* her posts, which seems to be too much trouble for many) and that's why she posted it here.

We know hitting is wrong, the child knows hitting is wrong, we know that this is a serious issue, we know it's not okay...so let's move on and actually offer support and advice.


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## yarngoddess (Dec 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soybeansmama* 
Kessed, this is just an aweful thing to say. Of course I am not letting my child be hit...Sawyer hasn't actually made contact with his brothers body in a few weeks because I am always there to stop it or redirect it or remove one of them from the situation.

It really shocks me that there is such a tone here.

This is a Gentle Discipline forum not a "*say what ever kind of mean crap you want because you're never going to meet these people in real life*" forum.

Go hug a tree or pet a kitten or get your love tank filled however you need to...You seem to be feeling a bit *snarkalicious*.









:




























:














:rot flmao

Bolding is mine obviously... OP I'm so sorry that this thread got so mean. I also didn't want to make you feel more isolated and different. I really want you to get along with your friend, and to peacefully work through this with your DS, and I hope this is all just blown out of porportion due to online miscommunication.

Snarkalicious.... I have got to write that down and remember that one! that's awesome.

Hang in there- This too shall Pass


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

Thanks....

I am soory too. Not for me, but for other mamas who may be dealing with the same thing and feeling the deep shame and hopelessness that I have felt. I have a thick skin when it comes to online, cyber-weeny attacks because these aren't the people that I have to worry about in the real world. No one can ever see the real picture, so I understand what I am getting into when I post here...another new, hopeless feeling mama may not. That makes me sad that a mom desperate for help may be too ashamed to come here and subject herself to this.







There really is some good advice I have gotten here. I know that its been said here before, but for a gentle discipline forum, there sure is a lot of non gentle things being spewed.







:


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## Violet2 (Apr 26, 2007)

Jessica;

I really thought the idea with the hand mural was great. It's a kinetic and visual way to explore/absorb the concept of no hitting.

Has DS changed his behavior since the mural? Or made any progress?

Sounds to me like you are working very hard on this issue. I hope your work bears fruit soon.

V


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## fresh_water (Feb 29, 2008)

OP- I think you were right to feel upset about your friend's reaction, and I think she was right to feel upset about her child being hit. I do NOT think it was ok to say she would spank your son if she was her child. And perhaps he HAS seen her swat her children while he's there. Who knows.

I worked in child care for 6 years, and a few of those were in preschool classrooms. That means 4 year olds. Lo and behold, there was hitting. There was hitting, pushing, slapping, hair pulling, throwing, and all sorts of other behaviors we did not condone. But you know what? The ones with the great solutions were the ones not working with the 4 year olds.







It always seems to be you can find great solutions when you aren't actually involved in a situation.

A poster and long term project talking about POSITIVE things you do with your hands, coupled with immediate discipline when hitting DOES happen is a GREAT idea! IT DOES WORK. No, hitting is never ok. We can all agree with that. But it happens. It is not an instant fix, ever. A child may react to your forceful way with not hitting anymore, but more than likely it is out of fear of your response, not because they "got it" that hitting is wrong.

Again, OP, I think you are handling it well, and I am so glad you talked it out with your friend. I'm happy to hear you are working it out and not letting parenting differences ruin your relationship. Mommy friendships are so important.


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

Thanks

we haven't finished yet, but even in what we have done so far, I see him thinking more when he is angered by his brother. He calls to me to come grab him before he physically touches him...I prefer that over grabbing his hands or yanking things away from him. I chose to to a project like this because when I was pregnant with Atticus, we did some birth art together and talked about his feelings about having a baby coming to us. We painted a huge mural with swirly colors and glitter. he also got to paint my belly mask. I think it was helpful for him to work through some things while using his hands in this way. On a side note...he accidently painted the shape of a blue angel in the birth poster and I believe that she was there at my homebirth when Atticus came out with no pulse and not breathing. My dear Sawyer has been through some stuff in the last year...


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

*Some children hit for attention, and that is even more difficult to correct, because the more you respond negatively and harshly, the more the child will continue to do it.*

ZIPWORTH
Thanks for pointing this out. My son DOES NOT respond well to negative and harsh reactions. Seriousness and compassion seem to be better tactics for us...


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## krystyn33 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramama* 
Several posters have pointed out (myself included) that no one is saying that hitting is okay, only to be responded to with "hitting is not OK!" Seriously, people, read the replies before typing a response. We're adults here and we should be able to support a mother without resorting to copious amounts of capital letters and exclamation points.

Great post. I found the lack of sensitivity and insinuations of bad parenting in some posts disturbing. If it were that easy to have such control over a child's behavior, why would there be thousands of parenting books out on the market?

Children are not blank slates who respond the same way under the same circumstances. If you believe this, I can't imagine you have spent much time with a variety of children. It's SO not fair to judge another parent so harshly!! Sounds to me like the OP is seriously working hard to discipline (in the true meaning of TEACH) her child in a healthy and intelligent way.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

I think the part that was irksome was that the OP was criticizing this other mother for responding to hitting with indignation and anger - which many of us are arguing is one of the best ways to demonstrate to children that hitting is wrong. They see that hitting is serious business, and that it won't be tolerated.

It's easy to appreciate that not all children will respond to similar methods. But this seemed like a case in which the OP had not ever tried this approach, the other mother did, chances are it probably would have worked, and yet OP then undermined the entire thing by being mad at the other mom.

When dd was hit by her 3 yo friend, I responded with rigid discipline and expectations for that child. And it worked. She knows she cannot come to our house and hit. If her mother had attacked me for my way of handling it, and then consistently failed to deal with the problem herself - without even trying methods that had worked well for countless other children - then my solution would have been for that child to not return to our home.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I think the part that was irksome was that the OP was criticizing this other mother for responding to hitting with indignation and anger - which many of us are arguing is one of the best ways to demonstrate to children that hitting is wrong. They see that hitting is serious business, and that it won't be tolerated.

EXACTLY.


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## kalimay (May 25, 2005)

I am glad you and your friend are trying to work this out. I think it sets a good example for our kids that friends can disagree but still be friends and find some common ground. It also sounds like he plays with his friend often and it would be sad for him to lose his friend.

I am sorry this thread got ugly and I am glad you sound like it has not hurt you and you can handle it, but I have to admit to being someone who feels that 4 and a half is old enough to have the impulse control not to hit. I guess reading the thread it felt like alot of people were saying that it is totally normal behavior and I would disagree. It is not unheard of, but I have worked at one preschool and been involved in my DD coop preschool and can only think of 2 kids who were still hitting when someone got in their space at that age, so I don't think it is the norm either. It just sounds like this has been going on for a long time, is it why you pulled him out of preschool? Were his teachers helpful with any advise for you? I hear the attitude on here to that they can't help it and I would disagree again unless there is some special need. I wonder if the parents who believe that their child cannot control their impulse to hit pass this believe on to their kids so that the kids think they are not in control of their actions when their emotions get big.

A boy in my older DD's kindergarten class recently pushed my 10 month old down and it really pissed me off. My first reaction after consoling my baby was to think WTF?, because I do think a five year old can control the hitting impulse.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I think the part that was irksome was that the OP was criticizing this other mother for responding to hitting with indignation and anger - which many of us are arguing is one of the best ways to demonstrate to children that hitting is wrong. They see that hitting is serious business, and that it won't be tolerated.

It's easy to appreciate that not all children will respond to similar methods. But this seemed like a case in which the OP had not ever tried this approach, the other mother did, chances are it probably would have worked, and yet OP then undermined the entire thing by being mad at the other mom.

When dd was hit by her 3 yo friend, I responded with rigid discipline and expectations for that child. And it worked. She knows she cannot come to our house and hit. If her mother had attacked me for my way of handling it, and then consistently failed to deal with the problem herself - without even trying methods that had worked well for countless other children - then my solution would have been for that child to not return to our home.

Your idea of "rigid discipline" is punishment. Other parents have given you reasons why we don't agree with punishment. Punishment might at least keep the behavior from happening when you can see it for a while, but it is not a solution to impulse control, control of anger, lack of empathy, or any other cause of hitting, and therefore is not a long-term or real solution. If the mom had simply expressed anger and sent him home, that would have been fine, but to talk about spanking (which, yes, is an implied threat if not an implicit one) is wrong. And to verbally attack the mom afterward for what is within the realm of normal behavior for a 4-year-old afterward because she doesn't spank is also wrong.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

To each his own, but responding with indignation and anger is different from yelling at a 4yo until he is broken.

It's strange that we're expecting a higher level of impulse-control from a 4yo than we are from a mother who lacked the impulse-control to refrain from verbally assailing said 4yo. It makes me wonder if impulse-control really exists at all for anyone, or if we just justify behavior by calling different names as we age (such as "mama bear" instinct).


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Your idea of "rigid discipline" is punishment..

You have an odd sense of what constitutes punishment. If dd hit me in the head with something heavy and I responded with cries of pain, would you consider that punishment also? If not, I'm not sure why the natural response of anger and indignation to being hit that we all experience should be considered punishment.

In any case, it's as I said before. Kids know what is what. This girl figured out that she can't hit at my house and still hang around here, so she just stopped. Even though she had this intractible 'hitting problem' that no one could seem to break.

Imagine that.


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## kacymoose (May 18, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I think the part that was irksome was that the OP was criticizing this other mother for responding to hitting with indignation and anger - which many of us are arguing is one of the best ways to demonstrate to children that hitting is wrong. They see that hitting is serious business, and that it won't be tolerated.

It's easy to appreciate that not all children will respond to similar methods. But this seemed like a case in which the OP had not ever tried this approach, the other mother did, chances are it probably would have worked, and yet OP then undermined the entire thing by being mad at the other mom.

When dd was hit by her 3 yo friend, I responded with rigid discipline and expectations for that child. And it worked. She knows she cannot come to our house and hit. If her mother had attacked me for my way of handling it, and then consistently failed to deal with the problem herself - without even trying methods that had worked well for countless other children - then my solution would have been for that child to not return to our home.

A lot of things are going to work for others that are not going to work for the parent. And just because they work in the moment, does not mean it is the best way to handle it. Actually, I think your idea of telling a child that repeatedly hits your kids, they are not going to be allowed to play anymore is much more reasonable.

Reacting strongly to your own child with an "I'm not going to tolerate this" approach can really backfire. Children will often do what upsets their parent most as a way to gain attention or get a reaction.

I think it is unfair to criticize OP for being upset with another parent for treating her child in a way she would never dream of. Mama Bear came out of the other mom, and it came out of OP too.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramama* 
It's strange that we're expecting a higher level of impulse-control from a 4yo than we are from a mother..

No we're not. This mother never hauled off and smacked this kid, the way the four year did with her toddler.

If she had, this thread would have gone very, very differently, I assure you.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

Impulsiveness usually manifests in children in a physical nature, and verbally for adults. This woman did far more damage with her impulsive words that the child did. So as long as we don't hit we're allowed to haul off and yell at a 4yo child who isn't yours? As long as we don't hit?


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
I don't think it's acceptable to subject other children to being hit while he figures out a better way to deal with his anger...

It is possible to stop the hitting by doing something drastic - like a time-out, or going home EVERY time - and then come up with better ways to deal with anger/frustration second.

I think that it's horrible that the OP is letting her new baby be hit "swiped at" on a regular basis while her son "figures it out". That's not parenting - that's ridiculous.

The OPs son needs to learn right now, that he can't hit other people. Deal with that first - and then move on.

The little kid is four years old. It's not like he could seriously injure his sibling. I have a 3.5 year old and a 1.5 year old and they both sometimes swipe at each other. If one of them gets hurt then I take care of that one. If neither are hurt I work with them on why hitting is not acceptable and give them ideas and alternatives. My son very rarely, like not even 2ce a month, hits at his little sister. Right now we're working on him getting my attention if something is happening rather than going after his sister himself. I prefer to be proactive by teaching my kids what to do in a situation rather than going directly into a punishment.


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

I find it equally irksome and (quite ironic really) that people aren't even really reading the posts. The repetition is exhausting...

I was not mad at the other mamas anger...I was mad at what she said and even angrier at her gloating afterwards. There is a history of this in our relationship. We are making ammends. we have explained our frusteration to eachother and there has been forgiveness.

I have tried many approaches. this is serious for me. I have pulled ideas out of my ars on this issue.

I don't believe that hitting is ever ok...at any age...for all living creatures.

I will respost this as needed.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
You have an odd sense of what constitutes punishment. If dd hit me in the head with something heavy and I responded with cries of pain, would you consider that punishment also? If not, I'm not sure why the natural response of anger and indignation to being hit that we all experience should be considered punishment.

I thought you said you'd use time outs. That would be punishment.

Cries of pain and expression of anger are not punishment. Talking about spanking is a threat of punishment - implied rather than implicit but still a threat.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soybeansmama* 
I find it equally irksome and (quite ironic really) that people aren't even really reading the posts. The repetition is exhausting...

I was not mad at the other mamas anger...I was mad at what she said and even angrier at her gloating afterwards. There is a history of this in our relationship. We are making ammends. we have explained our frusteration to eachother and there has been forgiveness.

I have tried many approaches. this is serious for me. I have pulled ideas out of my ars on this issue.

I don't believe that hitting is ever ok...at any age...for all living creatures.

I will respost this as needed.

I agree. It would have been much more acceptable (and adult-like) if your friend had said to your son "I am very angry about this and I'll speak to your mother about how we should handle it." Perhaps the two of you can come up with a list of suitable ways to handle situations that would not violate either of your parenting philosophies. It goes both ways, too. I assume (and I know the danger of assuming) that even though she spanks her children, she would not like you to spank hers? You both would probably come up with a list of remedies that wouldn't be all that different. It's hard with close friends. Sometimes boundaries get blurred.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I thought you said you'd use time outs. That would be punishment..

Yes it would. We've never used them, and I didn't say that.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramama* 
I agree. It would have been much more acceptable (and adult-like) if your friend had said to your son "I am very angry about this and I'll speak to your mother about how we should handle it." ..

And this would not have worked. His mother has talked to him about hitting ad nauseum.

What worked was the realization that: WOW! When I hit someone it is a BIG DEAL. They don't just talk to me, or remind me, or encourage me to do something else. They get _really_ angry. Gee, it must really hurt when I do that. I'll think twice about doing that again, because it really bothers me to see my friends and loved ones this upset.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
I hear people saying, "I simply wouldn't allow it" not realizing that it isn't that simple. You can not allow things and express anger when they happen, and they can still happen. This is life with kids. At that point, you have the choice to punish or to work on what's causing the behavior. I don't think punishment works. That doesn't mean I don't believe punishment works but I'd use it in some cases anyway. I simply don't believe it works.

Do you 'allow' your child to run into a busy street?


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

I personally don't "allow" my child to run into a busy street because when she is near a busy street, I am there to not "allow" it. Again, this mother wasn't even in the room, so "allowing" or not "allowing" is irrelevant. If she wouldn't allow her 18 mo old to be hit, then perhaps she should have been there. Again.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

It always makes me laugh when I read the posts of, "Well, we just wouldn't allow it. Period."

Dude, my kid hit for a full year. Starting at 18 mos. he hit anything and everything. And yes, I worked my ass off on turning it around (you can read lots and lots of my posts in this forum about it). But my acceptance or not had NO effect on my kids hitting. None.

Turned out he had a huge frustration at not being able to speak and communicate. And serious food allergies which resulted in aggressive and violent behavior.

And now he's 6.5 and he won't even hit back in self-defense. He's kind and gentle and plays with the babies and is sweet to animals.

And he's got a baby brother who is now also a hitter. He's almost 3. And that's been going on for months now, too.

And I'm working my butt off with him also so he has different coping techniques and tools.

But if I just got in either of their faces and sternly told them what was what....they both would have slapped me.









God bless those whose kids never hit or hit once and stop. Count your blessings. Because I wouldn't wish the hitting on my worst enemy. It's exhausting and draining and people who haven't lived it do not have a clue.

So, yeah.....I'm not ashamed of my kids prolonged hitting phases. As long as mamas are present and working hard to protect others and doing the work that needs to be done, then there's no shame in that.

Threatening a small child with violence for being violent? That's pretty lame.

(Oh, and when my oldest was hitting there were a few times where I totally lost it and hit him back. Hard. And not in a spanking way. And that didn't stop him from hitting either. I'm pretty sure he knew I was furious and his actions were unacceptable. But, yeah....it's not really about that.)


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
And this would not have worked. His mother has talked to him about hitting ad nauseum.

What worked was the realization that: WOW! When I hit someone it is a BIG DEAL. They don't just talk to me, or remind me, or encourage me to do something else. They get _really_ angry. Gee, it must really hurt when I do that. I'll think twice about doing that again, because it really bothers me to see my friends and loved ones this upset.

We're assuming that what the other woman did "worked" and I think that is an impossible assumption. To my knowledge, the child had not been back over that woman's house, so saying that verbal abuse "works" is dangerous.


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

He hasn't been back there yet...we are taking some time off.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I think the part that was irksome was that the OP was criticizing this other mother for responding to hitting with indignation and anger - which many of us are arguing is one of the best ways to demonstrate to children that hitting is wrong. They see that hitting is serious business, and that it won't be tolerated.

I agree.


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soybeansmama* 
I find it equally irksome and (quite ironic really) that people aren't even really reading the posts. The repetition is exhausting...

I was not mad at the other mamas anger...I was mad at what she said and even angrier at her gloating afterwards. There is a history of this in our relationship. We are making ammends. we have explained our frusteration to eachother and there has been forgiveness.

I have tried many approaches. this is serious for me. I have pulled ideas out of my ars on this issue.

I don't believe that hitting is ever ok...at any age...for all living creatures.

I will respost this as needed.

It's like I said...


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
It always makes me laugh when I read the posts of, "Well, we just wouldn't allow it. Period."

Dude, my kid hit for a full year. Starting at 18 mos. he hit anything and everything. And yes, I worked my ass off on turning it around (you can read lots and lots of my posts in this forum about it). But my acceptance or not had NO effect on my kids hitting. None.



Yes - at 18 months this is normal behaviour...

The OPs child is MUCH older than 18 months. He's 4.

And that's a HUGE difference.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I don't think so.

Not for a child with a new sibling.

Not for a child who has underlying food issues. Or sensory issues.

Or who has been exposed to hitting in other environments.

I don't think it's 100% common, but it's well within the realm of "normal"--depending on how frequently it's happening, what's provoked the hitting, the child's level of remorse, etc.

How many mamas have posted on here that they're kids have slapped them or a spouse and the adult had a knee-jerk reaction and hit back? It happens. It doesn't make them monsters or abusers. It doesn't make it right, but it happens.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Well, the OP's son will do fine. And so will everyone's children who have responded here today. We are all practicing gentle parenting and just disagree about the effectiveness of a particular approach.

We found something that seems to work well, even in difficult cases that had failed other approaches. It's not the right approach for some of you. That's okay.

But if a kid hits at my house, he gets sent home. Even though dd's playcircle is probably 3 dozen kids, we've only ever had this come up with one child. But it worked perfectly and now she plays over here about twice a week with no problems.


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Well, the OP's son will do fine. And so will everyone's children who have responded here today. We are all practicing gentle parenting and just disagree about the effectiveness of a particular approach.

We found something that seems to work well, even in difficult cases that had failed other approaches. It's not the right approach for some of you. That's okay.

But if a kid hits at my house, he gets sent home. Even though dd's playcircle is probably 3 dozen kids, we've only ever had this come up with one child. But it worked perfectly and now she plays over here about twice a week with no problems.

THANKYOU


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Sorry if I seemed to be coming down on you







:.

I'm glad things are working out with your friend







.


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## wytchywoman (Nov 14, 2006)

Why the heck would it be OK for him to hit *HIS* sibling????????

If it's OK for him to hit 1 baby - why not a different baby??

HITTING ISN'T OK. IT'S NOT!!!!!

HOW HARD IS THAT TO UNDERSTAND??????? IT'S NOT OK FOR HIM TO HIT. ANYONE!!!!!!!!!!![/QUOTE]

No one here has said it is OK for him to hit anyone. No one. Show me one post where someone has said he's in the righ for hitting another kid.
What they are saying is that sometimes problems like these don't have clear cut solutions. Often times the behavior is nothing more than a symptom of a different and broader scoped problem. To get rid of the behavior you have to get rid of the main problem, and in order to do that you have to figure out what that problem is, which is far from easy.
Sounds to me like this young man, in the end, is just feeling really helpless and out of control right now. Those are problems that are not so easy to fix, adn they take a lot of time and patrience and trial and error.
Quite frankly I see a lot of new mamas with only one young child blasting the OP. Forgive me for stating the obvious that you are a bit inexperienced when it comes to the trials of parenthood. You need to have another kid or two and walk a few miles in the OP's shoes and then come back and tell us how great your kids get along and how well behaved they are. Helping your kids to negotiate sibling and other social relationships is a skill that is honed over a length of time and it is one that is diffficult to obtain. I have a 14 yo and a 7 yo and they still tax my patience and abilities at times.
Again, I'm not excsuing the LO's behavior. Hitting is not acceptable. but is happens and it sounds like the OP is doing all she can to get to the root of the problem.


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Sorry if I seemed to be coming down on you







:.

I'm glad things are working out with your friend







.


















peace, mama...


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

Jessica, it just dawned on me (actually, hit me like a truck) that I have been using strong language to refer to the actions of a woman who is your friend. I apologize if I have offended you. I trust that since this woman has been a good friend to you for many years and you are in the process of amending your relationship, that she is a woman worth of your friendship. Hopefully this is just a bump in the road.

Seriously, though, for a thread that was so contentious for so long has turned into a mush-fest!


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## yarngoddess (Dec 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
And this would not have worked. His mother has *talked to him about hitting ad nauseum*.

What worked was the realization that: WOW! When I hit someone it is a BIG DEAL. They don't just talk to me, or remind me, or encourage me to do something else. They get _really_ *angry*. Gee, it must really hurt when I do that. I'll think twice about doing that again, because it really bothers me to see my friends and loved ones this upset.

Bolding is mine. TALKING to a child works WONDERS for SOME children. OP's DS seems to be responding to actively dealing with his FEELINGS, EMOTIONS, and INNER THOUGHTS. GUESS how that happens? BY TALKING. OP has never ever said that she just gave him a pat answer of "Oh, honey please don't hit" and left it at that. SHE DID NOT, and your post here is implying that she has said something that she hasn't.

I have a *HUGE* problem with this concept that children will learn once an adult becomes angry. My children litterally SHUT DOWN if they sense that you are angry. SOME people don't respond well in situations that are angry or where they feel that they are being intimidated. WHY should it be OK to be angry and intimidate a child? especially when it has the tag of "learning" I think that the OP is doing an awesome job of teaching her DS the deeper value of WHY we don't hit, not just that we DON'T.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
Yes - at 18 months this is normal behaviour...

The OPs child is MUCH older than 18 months. He's 4.

And that's a HUGE difference.

Again, this I TOTALLY disagree with. This is a 4yr old BOY. BOY's are different than girls, and in some family's the difference is so startling it can knock your socks off. I have both boys and girls, and my girls are very verbal and rational beings. They listen and learn by the second time of doing something "wrong", but my boys are TOTALLY different. BOYS tend to be VERY physical, they don't talk as much or as often as girls (or as well in the early years either) and when they are dealing with some pretty complex emotions they often resort to hitting. DON'T misread this- it's not OK to hit, but I really, REALLY think that you are missing a HUGE element here.

What ever happened to sharing our opinions about a situation WITH OUT making the OP feel bad, isolated and just generally crappy. This thread has almost become inappropriate in it's continued arguing, and indifferance to the real person's feelings. OP is very right, if this was my thread I would have stopped responding at page 4. Some people cannot deal with this continued garbage back and forth. WHAT are we learning/gaining from eachother in this thread? SUPPORT? not really. No where does it say that we all have to disagree, but we are supposed to be here as a support system, not as a system to break down someone. MDC is starting to become a more angry place, more judgmental and more "MY way or YOU'R WRONG" kind of a place.







:


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramama* 
Jessica, it just dawned on me (actually, hit me like a truck) that I have been using strong language to refer to the actions of a woman who is your friend. I apologize if I have offended you. I trust that since this woman has been a good friend to you for many years and you are in the process of amending your relationship, that she is a woman worth of your friendship. Hopefully this is just a bump in the road.

Seriously, though, for a thread that was so contentious for so long has turned into a mush-fest!









Trust me, I have used some strong language about her over this whole thing, too. I have more understanding to replace the anger now...kind of like with my 4 year old.


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yarngoddess* 
Bolding is mine. TALKING to a child works WONDERS for SOME children. OP's DS seems to be responding to actively dealing with his FEELINGS, EMOTIONS, and INNER THOUGHTS. GUESS how that happens? BY TALKING. OP has never ever said that she just gave him a pat answer of "Oh, honey please don't hit" and left it at that. SHE DID NOT, and your post here is implying that she has said something that she hasn't.

I have a *HUGE* problem with this concept that children will learn once an adult becomes angry. My children litterally SHUT DOWN if they sense that you are angry. SOME people don't respond well in situations that are angry or where they feel that they are being intimidated. WHY should it be OK to be angry and intimidate a child? especially when it has the tag of "learning" I think that the OP is doing an awesome job of teaching her DS the deeper value of WHY we don't hit, not just that we DON'T.

Again, this I TOTALLY disagree with. This is a 4yr old BOY. BOY's are different than girls, and in some family's the difference is so startling it can knock your socks off. I have both boys and girls, and my girls are very verbal and rational beings. They listen and learn by the second time of doing something "wrong", but my boys are TOTALLY different. BOYS tend to be VERY physical, they don't talk as much or as often as girls (or as well in the early years either) and when they are dealing with some pretty complex emotions they often resort to hitting. DON'T misread this- it's not OK to hit, but I really, REALLY think that you are missing a HUGE element here.

What ever happened to sharing our opinions about a situation WITH OUT making the OP feel bad, isolated and just generally crappy. This thread has almost become inappropriate in it's continued arguing, and indifferance to the real person's feelings. OP is very right, if this was my thread I would have stopped responding at page 4. Some people cannot deal with this continued garbage back and forth. WHAT are we learning/gaining from eachother in this thread? SUPPORT? not really. No where does it say that we all have to disagree, but we are supposed to be here as a support system, not as a system to break down someone. MDC is starting to become a more angry place, more judgmental and more "MY way or YOU'R WRONG" kind of a place.







:

thankyou,
I have continued this thread because I am actually learning something here. I can weed out the snark...


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## mamasneedlove (Mar 15, 2007)

This is the first multi-page thread I've read in its entirety since I joined. I have to say I am so saddened and turned off. I will NEVER post in this forum about any problems I have with my child, because I see what a hostile and angry environment it is. If this had been my topic, I would be in tears and probably never visit again.

Not only that, but I am inferring by the OP's comments that this happens often on this board, that this board is well known for being so prickly? I found this board through Mothering magazine, which I love, and I'm so shocked.

I mean, come on people, we're all on the same team here! Why are we attacking each other over posts that are so easy to misunderstand? No, why are people being ALLOWED to write such sarcastic, mean-spirited, and obviously unkind things? Are there no moderators?

I feel so dejected because I thought I had found a community of like-minded parents, but instead I found a bunch of people practically name-calling over the interpretation of what someone's friend said! Wow, so disappointing.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
Do you 'allow' your child to run into a busy street?

That isn't a discipline issue. That's a supervision issue. I stayed right with my daughter and held her hand near busy streets until she knew not to run into the street.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
That isn't a discipline issue. That's a supervision issue. I stayed right with my daughter and held her hand near busy streets until she knew not to run into the street.

That's my point. You made sure that your child wasn't able to run into the street.

Since hitting isn't as disastrous as running into the street - my level of supervision isn't as high. But it's close. Sometimes the kids in my care do hit each other - and when they do - I supervise that child very closely for a while to prevent it from happening again. With the one girl is having a hard time with this right now - I don't give her the opportunity to do it.


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamasneedlove* 
This is the first multi-page thread I've read in its entirety since I joined. I have to say I am so saddened and turned off. I will NEVER post in this forum about any problems I have with my child, because I see what a hostile and angry environment it is. If this had been my topic, I would be in tears and probably never visit again.

Not only that, but I am inferring by the OP's comments that this happens often on this board, that this board is well known for being so prickly? I found this board through Mothering magazine, which I love, and I'm so shocked.

I mean, come on people, we're all on the same team here! Why are we attacking each other over posts that are so easy to misunderstand? No, why are people being ALLOWED to write such sarcastic, mean-spirited, and obviously unkind things? Are there no moderators?

I feel so dejected because I thought I had found a community of like-minded parents, but instead I found a bunch of people practically name-calling over the interpretation of what someone's friend said! Wow, so disappointing.


I am so sorry mama.








please feel free to send mamas a p.m. if you want a more private discussion. I was worried something like this would happen. I feel sad about that. there is like-mindedness here, that is why I stay.


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## ramama (Apr 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamasneedlove* 
This is the first multi-page thread I've read in its entirety since I joined. I have to say I am so saddened and turned off. I will NEVER post in this forum about any problems I have with my child, because I see what a hostile and angry environment it is. If this had been my topic, I would be in tears and probably never visit again.

Not only that, but I am inferring by the OP's comments that this happens often on this board, that this board is well known for being so prickly? I found this board through Mothering magazine, which I love, and I'm so shocked.

I mean, come on people, we're all on the same team here! Why are we attacking each other over posts that are so easy to misunderstand? No, why are people being ALLOWED to write such sarcastic, mean-spirited, and obviously unkind things? Are there no moderators?

I feel so dejected because I thought I had found a community of like-minded parents, but instead I found a bunch of people practically name-calling over the interpretation of what someone's friend said! Wow, so disappointing.

I don't know what to say...I know what I *want* to say. MDC is a great place for information, but asking for advice can be dicey. Some seem to come on just to pick a fight in cyber-anonymity. It seems that if you come on hoping to be supported, you are flamed. If you come on thinking you'll be flamed, you're actually supported. It's a strange place...I lurked for a loooooong time before posting, and still hesitate to start a thread.

Jessica, you're more of a woman than I am in being able to wade through the snark.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
That's my point. You made sure that your child wasn't able to run into the street.

Since hitting isn't as disastrous as running into the street - my level of supervision isn't as high. But it's close. Sometimes the kids in my care do hit each other - and when they do - I supervise that child very closely for a while to prevent it from happening again. With the one girl is having a hard time with this right now - I don't give her the opportunity to do it.

How does that work logistically? Because that would have meant that my first child would never have been touched or in the proximity of another human being.







Seriously, I sometimes never knew if he was going to walk up to another child and play with them and get along beautifully, or he was going to smack them in the face completely unprovoked. So, barring taking away all opportunities for contact, I just can't see how not "giving the opportunity" actually works.

And reading back over several posts I can see how some folks are confused or bewildered. I worked with kids for years and years. I could give a look (not angry or mean...just serious and expectant) and have kids behave in ways their parents admitted they could not manage. But that stuff just doesn't work day in and day out with my own children--sometimes....but not for this hitting deal. I think there is a world of difference btw. how kids behave for care givers/friends/others and what happens with their own folks.

New mamas....take what works and leave the rest. You can quickly find out who "speaks your language" here and ignore those who don't.


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
How does that work logistically? Because that would have meant that my first child would never have been touched or in the proximity of another human being.







Seriously, I sometimes never knew if he was going to walk up to another child and play with them and get along beautifully, or he was going to smack them in the face completely unprovoked. So, barring taking away all opportunities for contact, I just can't see how not "giving the opportunity" actually works.

And reading back over several posts I can see how some folks are confused or bewildered. I worked with kids for years and years. I could give a look (not angry or mean...just serious and expectant) and have kids behave in ways their parents admitted they could not manage. But that stuff just doesn't work day in and day out with my own children--sometimes....but not for this hitting deal. I think there is a world of difference btw. how kids behave for care givers/friends/others and what happens with their own folks.

New mamas....take what works and leave the rest. You can quickly find out who "speaks your language" here and ignore those who don't.

that's a good point about others taking care of your kids...most of the time my ds behaves beautifully and the children I watch regularily don't talk back like their mom says they do at home...it's interesting.


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

Quote:

Quite frankly I see a lot of new mamas with only one young child blasting the OP. Forgive me for stating the obvious that you are a bit inexperienced when it comes to the trials of parenthood. You need to have another kid or two and walk a few miles in the OP's shoes and then come back and tell us how great your kids get along and how well behaved they are. Helping your kids to negotiate sibling and other social relationships is a skill that is honed over a length of time and it is one that is diffficult to obtain. I have a 14 yo and a 7 yo and they still tax my patience and abilities at times.
As a mama of one young child- I agree with you! Only because I spent years as a preschool teacher, nanny, daycare worker, and got to be exposed to different behaviors in different age ranges before having one of my own. Four year olds have a pretty wide range of development, some are more like toddlers, some are more like kindergarteners (especially only children tend to be less into the hitting thing, from what I've experienced, the more siblings, the more hitting!) I agree that it needs to be made clear to the offending child that hitting is completely unacceptable- and by that token, the 18 month old should have been reprimanded in an age appropriate way as well. My DD went through one of the worst hitting/biting phases I have ever dealt with in a child (she has SN)- I was getting beaten every day on a regular basis, eyes gouged, had bruises all over, and DD is from a VERY non-violent, gentle home where she has never witnessed hitting, let alone been hit. It is very often not a reflection on parenting skills at all, but the fact that children, like all humans of all ages, have their own personalities, emotional and mental development. Shaming a child (evidenced by the head down) is never okay. Adults need to remain calm and consistent rather than explosive and threatening.


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## Marcee (Jan 23, 2007)

Wow... this thread... is just well wow (and not in a good way, except I learned the word snarkalicious!)

I am the momma to 4 boys and 1 girl ages 12, 10, 8, 3, and 2. My now 8 year old (when around 6) hit his siblings when he got angry or irritated with them. We worked through it. He found his voice and stopped using his hands. He is my most sensitive child and unfortunately had a hard time expressing things in the appropriate manner. He is now 8, and completely beyond his hitting phase.

I have had other kids hit my children before and I have yet to freak out and go "momma bear". But an adult threatening to spank my child would put me over the top.

(And for the record so far none of my children are deliquent bullies that are victimizing other children. I am often complimented on how well my children problem solve and how kind they are)

OP I LOVE the art project idea!


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Just for the record, the lady did not threaten to spank him.


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## Marcee (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
Just for the record, the lady did not threaten to spank him.

To me saying "if you were mine I would spank you" is very threatening. While it is not the same as an actual threat I would agree. My BIL once told my oldest son that "he needed his ass whipped" I took that very much as a threat towards my child. And if some one told my children that "if you were mine I would spank you..." they would indeed feel fear.


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

Personally, I might consider forgiving her if she apologized. I would not let her ever babysit again, but I might forgive her.

However, she obviously feels that her behavior was appropriate. That means she could do it again. Therefore -- I think that you can welcome wonderful new friends in your life who will be much more compatible with your beliefs.


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## Janelovesmax (Feb 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kessed* 
Since hitting is something I think is completely unacceptable - I would pull out the big guns EVERY TIME my child hit. What that is will depend on the child and the family. Hitting is about the only thing we plan to use time-outs for. Because IMO if a 4yo hits another child then they aren't ready to be part of things. And if a 4yo had a serious consequence each and every single time they hit someone - they will stop pretty quickly.

I guess "hitting" is something that I would take VERY seriously - and I wouldn't subject other people's children to my child is she was a know "hitter". And that's what you say your DS is. He could actually hurt an 18mo with the size difference.

Hitting isn't OK. It's not OK for a parent to hit their child. And it's not OK for a child to hit someone else.

So I would say to do whatever will work for him to STOP the behavior immediately.

I'm all for "working on" good manners, and helping out around the house. But hitting is serious. And it's not OK.


Not that I disagree that hitting is unacceptable, but I had the same exact attitude and expectations of myself and my child until he turned 20 months. If your child is a "hitter" and you plan to use "time-outs" every time she hits, you are on the road to a lot of power struggle, tears, pain and isolations.


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## Janelovesmax (Feb 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *To-Fu* 
I'm sure someone else has already said this, but isn't it pretty counterintuitive to hit someone in order to teach them not to hit someone?

No - but it needs to be repeated.


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## Janelovesmax (Feb 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I honestly don't know a single four year old who hits. I know many, many four year olds, and have one myself.

It's hard to accept that it's just a coincidence that the folks with the hitting four year olds are the same ones arguing that the kids can't help it and that it's inappropriate to act firmly with them when they hit.

I know more then one 4 year old that hit. Not often, but still. My 5 year old nephew still hits. But his mother and father just went thru a bitter divorce.


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## nataliebassoon (Feb 20, 2008)

:

I think this thread is making me scared to post here in the future. It's like a soap opera! Or high school!


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nataliebassoon* 







:

I think this thread is making me scared to post here in the future. It's like a soap opera! Or high school!











I came here to post because I really felt like my dealings with my friend was becoming very high school like...little did I know it would be the same experience here. It is disapointing.

At least I have gotten a few good ideas...


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamasneedlove* 
This is the first multi-page thread I've read in its entirety since I joined. I have to say I am so saddened and turned off. I will NEVER post in this forum about any problems I have with my child, because I see what a hostile and angry environment it is. If this had been my topic, I would be in tears and probably never visit again.

Not only that, but I am inferring by the OP's comments that this happens often on this board, that this board is well known for being so prickly? I found this board through Mothering magazine, which I love, and I'm so shocked.

I mean, come on people, we're all on the same team here! Why are we attacking each other over posts that are so easy to misunderstand? No, why are people being ALLOWED to write such sarcastic, mean-spirited, and obviously unkind things? Are there no moderators?

I feel so dejected because I thought I had found a community of like-minded parents, but instead I found a bunch of people practically name-calling over the interpretation of what someone's friend said! Wow, so disappointing.

Sometimes, there's a person who comes to the board that just seems to get a thrill out of messing up threads until they get shut down. There will be a pattern that as soon as you see a certain name on a thread, it's a sure sign that it's going to get shut down. It sucks, but it happens. Luckily, those people seem to get banned or bored quickly enough. If you look at the general pattern of this thread, you'll see a lot of support. And it's moderated. You can always ask a moderator to pull your thread if the thread has gone crazy.

And what bothers me most is that people still engage the disruptive person. As if it's going to somehow enlighten them.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

I've shunned this place too in the past, but it's good to keep in mind that the few people who seem most judgmental do NOT speak for the majority.

I agree with time outs not working with a chronic hitter. I am NOT anti-time out. But with my son we would have been doing them a lot, and they really made it worse. Also sometimes it's hard to hover over them if you have other kids, but I agree with close supervision.

I never really did find the secret but had the most success when I was firm and but did not get angry (ooh that was hard when he was hitting his baby brother).

I would probably not be friends with this person anymore, esp. after that email!


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jenmk* 
Honestly, Kessed, you are speaking from a place of no experience. You have one child who is 18 months old. You have great theories of how you would nip this behavior in the bud if your child were to start, but in reality, if you were faced with a child who started hitting and didn't stop right away, you really have no clue what you would do. And I hope your child is not like that because I can tell you (and the OP has told us) that it's no picnic. It sucks to have a child who is hitting, or in my case pushing, a younger sibling over and over again. For months. For years. No. Matter. What. You. Do. It sucks.

And you know what, Kessed? Not all bad behavior is due to parenting, discipline, or lack thereof, as you wholeheartedly believe right now. Of course that's what you believe. You have one 18 month old child. You have it easy, mama. And I do hope that it continues that way for you.

But some children cannot control their impulses. And it has nothing to do with parenting. My oldest pushes. He's done it for about 3 years, and he cannot control it. He has to push. I recently discovered that he has sensory processing issues. (Good god, there's a reason why he pushes! What a relief . . . and poor boy for getting into trouble for something he couldn't control.) There are physical "exercises" I can do now with him to fulfill his sensory needs so he will no longer have the need to push. But his pushing--which has been years of frustration, lots of discipline, big reactions, small reactions, every tactic we could think of, and from the start a very clear message that pushing is not okay, not ever okay, and times of incredible rage at his behavior--has nothing to do with my parenting. You, from your point of view on this thread, would undoubtedly condemn me as a terrible parent who obviously is not concerned that my child is hurting other children because this behavior lasted more that a couple of weeks. You would assume that I have done nothing about it. And you would be entirely wrong. As you are about the OP.

You have great ideals, Kessed, ideals that we all share that hitting is not okay no matter what, but you are out of the realm of your knowledge and experience here. Some children cannot control their impulses. Some learn to control it quite quickly. Some take a long time. Some can't do it at all. Each child develops at his or her own rate. You can't speed that up, no matter how much you dislike or disapprove of any behavior.

Yes, yes and YES! I soooo agree with all of this. And since I am the mama of a seven year old boy with SID, anxiety and maybe other things too, I KNOW this to be true.

I am truly and honestly shocked by some of the posts in this thread.







How sad that grown women get all bent out of shape over a 4 YO old hitting, and then the same women spew out verbal violence over and over again.







Shocking and really sad.

Oooh, and here in Norway we must be really lousy parents, all of us. Cause EVERY parentingbook here will state that it is perfectly normal and ageappropriate for a child to hit. And not just for babies, but for children all the way up to older than 4 years old, that`s for sure. Does that mean that every Norwegian child hits? No. But it is considered pretty normal and something that is a part of growing up.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

The comments are too personal in some posts and need cleaning up before we can re-open for discussion.


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