# is it illegal....



## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

not to have a bed or crib for a toddler? i cosleep with my 18 month old and one day when i was playing hide and seek with the kids i hopped into the crib and broke it







: It was only used for naps anyway when I still thought that dd might roll off the bed. I don't have any use for a toddler bed, but do I need one for appearances or something?? When a public health nurse came to my house soon after dd was born, her questions about our sleeping arrangements led me to believe that I legally need to have one... Is this true??


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## Flower of Bliss (Jun 13, 2006)

I can not begin to imagine that would be true. Some families are so poor they have almost no furniture and everyone sleeps on the floor. Certainly you don't have to have a crib.

Now if you're being checked out by CPS or some such, I might want one just for show...


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## blsilva (Jul 31, 2006)

I hope not, because we don't have one!


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

I am not sure where you are, and I am no kind of legal expert, but I have never heard of any legal requirement for a child to have a crib or bed.

I would not, however, put it past a public health visitor to imply or suggest that things s/he thinks you should have are some kind or other of "requirement".

(I feel the need to sidebar that my experiences with such people have been nonexistent, and that the visiting nurse we were sent after we were released from the hospital was wonderful and helpful. But we're pretty mainstream. A health visitor who tells you you "must" have a crib may even think she's acting in your kid's best interest, but could be clueless about your parenting methods, and consequently wrong about what's needed.)


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## winnie (Aug 31, 2005)

She DOES have a bed! I mean, where does she sleep every night? In a bed, right next to you, right? There is no way someone could tell you that you must legally have a SEPARATE bed for your child.

I wouldn't worry about it for a second if I were you.

winn


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Where exactly do you think laws about cribs would be written?









Of course there is no such law.

We've never had a crib in our house.

-Angela


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## Lil Bit's Mummy (May 5, 2007)

If nothing else, you can keep the mattress on the floor and say it's safer than a toddler bed!


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## kikidee (Apr 15, 2007)

I am by no means a legal expert, but I have never heard of such a law and know several people who did not have beds for their babies. I think you are fine.


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## sebarnes (Feb 2, 2005)

I certainly hope there isn't a law, cause we'd be breaking it







!


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

No.


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## erika978 (Feb 25, 2007)

I would be very annoyed if they were trying to legislate what pieces of furniture we now have to buy!

So I seriously doubt there is a law about having to have a toddler or childs bed.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

I don't know the law but I seriously doubt that is the case. I think it is considered neglectful if you don't have a safe place for the child to sleep, but you DO have such a place: your bed is just as safe, if not safer, than any cradle or crib.

"her questions about our sleeping arrangements led me to believe that I legally need to have one."

Are you sure she was not asking because of Back-to-Sleep? My DD's ped asked me where she slept, what is was like, and when I replied that she slept in a cradle swaddled or with us, he followed up with, "But you're making sure she's on her back when she's with you?" If they bother you just say you are able to make sure your child stays on her back when she's with you in bed.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Cuff me now, cuz even if it WERE a law, my kid isn't going anywhere near one!


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## SugarAndSun (Feb 6, 2005)

I have never heard of it being an issue except where adoption is concerned.


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## Miasmamma (Sep 20, 2006)

If that's the case, my laundry will be very happy to know that it legally has a home, cause that's all the crib has ever been used for. Oh, and a cat bed.


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

In some states, it is CPS "policy" that every child in a home have a sleeping space of their own.

Even if you cosleep.

The rationale is that then the child is not being FORCED to sleep with a parent or sibling. Having a seperate sleeping space makes it the child's choice to cosleep.

You can still be harrassed about cosleeping by a caseworker though, even if you have a seperate sleeping space for the kids. Particularly if the child is older, and also if the child is sharing a bed in which a parent or sibling of the opposite sex sleeps.

It's not "illegal" but unfortunately, with regard to CPS, many of the things that raise red flags, and get a family into hot water are not illegal, but are merely against their policies.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

"In some states, it is CPS "policy" that every child in a home have a sleeping space of their own."

Even babies!?!?! Can you imagine- forcing a little one to sleep next to mommy.







Poor little thing!


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## JesseMomme (Apr 6, 2002)

I agree with Breathless Wonder...there are so many variables.

For one, You can't have a family of 6 (with two girls and two boys say) in a two bedroom apt. Girl or girls have to have their own room, as do boys. Siblings can't co-ed bedrooms.







: I'm not sure if it is a law, but it is what tons of people have told me. And we were kicked out of a 2bd apt. (for having our 3rd baby, how dare we, who bedshared with us anyways, well there was no room for us according to them!).

Add CPS workers to the mix. Both SWs I have personally dealt with asked to see the kids sleeping spaces - one SW was fine with bedsharing with my infant dd, (no crib, no cradle, no sidecar at all) the other SW was glad to see a cradle at the side of my bed (that I never used) and asked "the baby doen'st _sleep_ with you, does he?" I lied and said no.


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## mom2myprincess (Feb 3, 2007)

I doubt there is a law BUT CPS did come into my home and had to see my DDs bed to "make sure that she had one".


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

I have 4 kids, 2 of each, and they ALL sleep together - with us. However they DO have thier own "rooms" set up...so no CPS worries there.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JesseMomme* 
For one, You can't have a family of 6 (with two girls and two boys say) in a two bedroom apt. Girl or girls have to have their own room, as do boys. Siblings can't co-ed bedrooms.







: I'm not sure if it is a law, but it is what tons of people have told me. And we were kicked out of a 2bd apt. (for having our 3rd baby, how dare we, who bedshared with us anyways, well there was no room for us according to them!).

Add CPS workers to the mix. Both SWs I have personally dealt with asked to see the kids sleeping spaces - one SW was fine with bedsharing with my infant dd, (no crib, no cradle, no sidecar at all) the other SW was glad to see a cradle at the side of my bed (that I never used) and asked "the baby doen'st _sleep_ with you, does he?" I lied and said no.

As for housing laws- many places do have such laws in rental property or subsidized housing. No worries if you own your own home.

As for CPS- it's better to not speak to them without a lawyer anyway.

-Angela


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## sebarnes (Feb 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 

As for CPS- it's better to not speak to them without a lawyer anyway.

-Angela


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

Quote:

As for CPS- it's better to not speak to them without a lawyer anyway.
Agreed- but the problem is, if you wait until they show up at your door step to find a lawyer, you are going to have problems.

Just so people know, during the investigation, you may not face criminal charges (if ever- criminal charges usually occur after the case has been found "indicated"), and because of this, you are not entitled to a public defender. Which means you need to hire a private lawyer, and most lawyers either do not know enough to properly assist you with a CPS investigation, or they do know enough, and will not represent you until you face criminal charges. This leaves you hanging in the wind, trying to deal with them, and protect your children and family.


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## katheek77 (Mar 13, 2007)

JesseMomme said:


> I agree with Breathless Wonder...there are so many variables.
> 
> For one, You can't have a family of 6 (with two girls and two boys say) in a two bedroom apt. Girl or girls have to have their own room, as do boys. Siblings can't co-ed bedrooms.
> 
> ...


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

katheek77 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *JesseMomme*
> ...


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## ashleyhaugh (Jun 23, 2005)

yep, thats the way we've always heard it too... and also same sex kids qualify for their own rooms if there so many years apart- im thinking its like 7 or so

although i remember seeing something in our apt lease abou kids and rooms and ages, but we didnt have kids then, so i didnt pay much attention to it.


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## blsilva (Jul 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breathless Wonder* 
In some states, it is CPS "policy" that every child in a home have a sleeping space of their own.

Even if you cosleep.

The rationale is that then the child is not being FORCED to sleep with a parent or sibling. Having a seperate sleeping space makes it the child's choice to cosleep.

You can still be harrassed about cosleeping by a caseworker though, even if you have a seperate sleeping space for the kids. Particularly if the child is older, and also if the child is sharing a bed in which a parent or sibling of the opposite sex sleeps.

It's not "illegal" but unfortunately, with regard to CPS, many of the things that raise red flags, and get a family into hot water are not illegal, but are merely against their policies.

Wow, that's just wrong. And scary.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Talk about criminalizing poverty!!! How infuriating.

They should have to read the Miranda Rights before entering a home, if they are using it for their investigations.

"the MILITARY'S housing policy (not exactly liberal), is that opposite sex siblings will share a room until one reaches the age of six, as far as determining the "bedroom" allowance."

But they give you the rooms.







So actually that's nice, they're thinking of how to make people as comfortable as possible. Whereas for non-mil families, that could seriously cut into a budget.

Do kids HAVE to have their own rooms, or can they sleep in the living room (or can the parents sleep in the living room)?


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Miasmamma* 
If that's the case, my laundry will be very happy to know that it legally has a home, cause that's all the crib has ever been used for. Oh, and a cat bed.









: the crib in my house is also a clean clothing hamper/cat bed


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## Ruthe (May 31, 2005)

Well, the military isn't exactly giving you anything... housing, or a housing allowance, is part of the total compensation a military member gets for doing his job. They can't, say, give you a cardboard box and tell you that's your housing, and still meet the contract they have with the military member. There are minimum standards in place as far as what counts as standard family housing.
Now if you have 12 kids or so, you may still have to make do with a 4 bedroom military house... there aren't many military housing units with 5 or more bedrooms... and the bedrooms are often rather tiny! I've seen large families get very creative. Who needs a dining room, anyway?


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## Ruthe (May 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *izobelle* 
"the MILITARY'S housing policy (not exactly liberal), is that opposite sex siblings will share a room until one reaches the age of six, as far as determining the "bedroom" allowance."

But they give you the rooms.







So actually that's nice, they're thinking of how to make people as comfortable as possible. Whereas for non-mil families, that could seriously cut into a budget.

(my above post was in response to this)


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## JesseMomme (Apr 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breathless Wonder* 

This is the general guideline for RENTALS. However, even if you own your own home, CPS "policy" may be the same. Again, not the same as law- more like a "standard of care" guideline that they feel is appropriate, and try to enforce.

Yes I meant to specify that I've experienced this with both just renting and one of the SW's "things" he was looking for. Whoops!


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## babylove2007 (Mar 30, 2007)

I don't know about a private home, but I used to volunteer in a shelter for mothers and children in NYC. They were "legally" required to have a crib present in the room for a baby under a year and a half, and a second bed for a year and a half and up, but many of them didn't use it. Many of the Caribbean and Latina mothers co-slept with their kids and nobody was inspecting the rooms while people slept! Of course, many of the social workers complained--they also complained about "all those mothers holding their kids all the time--they should learn to separate."







: But no CPS action was taken.

The same for number of rooms--I think in government housing, they can require that you have 3 bedrooms for 3 kids, etc. But many of the families living in our projects have 5 kids plus, so I'm sure there is some room-sharing going on. I think with adoption, each sibling has to have his or her own room, which is why adoption isn't an issue for us right now. It would require us to move and have a mortgage of almost $2000/month.

If this landlord kicks us out for having a baby, we will be leaving the area, for the same money reasons mentioned above. A 2-bedroom apartment in our area at $1800/month plus just isn't worth the required 2 incomes, when we can move elsewhere and get a place at half that and I can stay home.

All in all, for the reasons I mentioned above, I think these "laws" (or are they just landlord "rules" in some parts) are a bit classist. Think of all the people who can't even afford more than a studio--are they not allowed to have kids, or required to live beyond their means if they do??


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## miamidad (Jan 15, 2007)

Well we dont have any of the above and we dont plan on having any so I guess we are guilty of spending a lot of time with our child next to us loving him and learning from him.

Albert Einstein once said:

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction."

MiamiDad


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## St. Margaret (May 19, 2006)

Nice quotation! And welcome









As for cribs for appearances... we've got one but I'd need some warning to take all the random clothes out of it (dd keeps falling asleep on me before I can change to my pjs, so I just lose the shirt to nurse in the night







), laptop, toys, webcam... and to take out the side-stuffed blankets and replace the side we remmoved to sidecar it (but it's ended up just being extra room for mommy and her stuff, dd won't sleep anywhere but snuggled to me!)


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## Celticqueen (Feb 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Miasmamma* 
If that's the case, my laundry will be very happy to know that it legally has a home, cause that's all the crib has ever been used for. Oh, and a cat bed.


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## Celticqueen (Feb 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2myprincess* 
I doubt there is a law BUT CPS did come into my home and had to see my DDs bed to "make sure that she had one".

Is it just me, or does CPS think they are the parents' babysitters?







:


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JesseMomme* 
I agree with Breathless Wonder...there are so many variables.

For one, You can't have a family of 6 (with two girls and two boys say) in a two bedroom apt. Girl or girls have to have their own room, as do boys. Siblings can't co-ed bedrooms.







: I'm not sure if it is a law, but it is what tons of people have told me. And we were kicked out of a 2bd apt. (for having our 3rd baby, how dare we, who bedshared with us anyways, well there was no room for us according to them!).

Add CPS workers to the mix. Both SWs I have personally dealt with asked to see the kids sleeping spaces - one SW was fine with bedsharing with my infant dd, (no crib, no cradle, no sidecar at all) the other SW was glad to see a cradle at the side of my bed (that I never used) and asked "the baby doen'st _sleep_ with you, does he?" I lied and said no.


Actually, according to Fair Housing laws, the landlord cannot legally kick you out for having opposite-sex siblings sharing a room in Washington State, at least. In fact, we cannot inquire about the sex of the children in determining whether or not we will rent to the particular family. We do however have a people/bedroom ratio in our laws though- For a one bedroom, a max of three people, for a two bedroom, a max of five, and for a three, a max of six. It's two people per bedroom plus one.

And FWIW, I don't know of anywhere the has a law regarding where an infant may sleep in the home. I didn't have a crib at all with dd#1, just a sidebar co-sleeper that I never used, and ended up using it for a toy basket when she was six months old.


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## iadoremybabe (Jul 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Where exactly do you think laws about cribs would be written?









Of course there is no such law.

We've never had a crib in our house.

-Angela

Actually about a dozen states do have laws regarding cribs. Although they refer to crib safety, selling cribs, etc...consumer protection stuff, not whether you are required to have one.

I do not know where the original poster lives, but I looked up Washington State law and found that there are no laws requiring a crib in the home. Day care, shelters, and other housing facilities are a different matter though. My guess is that that's pretty typical.

If you really want to know about where you live, your state's bar association website is usually a good free internet source for legal research.


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## PaxMamma (Jul 22, 2005)

i live in ohio, and i recently heard some L&D nurses talking about how they're going to have to start asking people if they have a crib, just like they have to ask about carseats. these nurses were at our LLL mtg, and, of course, were kind of scoffing, but sometimes practice ends up becoming law.


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## JamSamMom (Apr 17, 2007)

My daughter was in a home daycare and the home daycare inspector for Michigan criticized our caregiver during an inspection because our daughter was sleeping in a chair during her visit. So my husband and I wrote a nasty letter to her and the department for how unreasonable it is to criticize such a thing. Our daughter was safe in her care and that fact that she fell asleep in a chair is not an issue. It certainly is not unsafe she was 2.5 years old at the time and takes spontaneous naps at home on our furniture and even on the living room floor at times. This inspector was just trying to find anything to criticize as that is her job







: But after our letters she did not come back because she had no legal basis for further investigation. I did get my daughter a toddler bed for $50 bucks but she still sleeps with us and is 4 now. I guess if you armed yorself with studies that support co-sleeping and showed it to the person then they might back off otherwise a toddler bed is not too pricey for show. These idiots need to focus on real issues like smoking and driving drunk with kids in the car or leaving kids home alone while parents are out partying. Not co-sleeping and extended breastfeeding.







: Good luck!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breathless Wonder* 
Agreed- but the problem is, if you wait until they show up at your door step to find a lawyer, you are going to have problems.

But did you know that, at least in the U.S., you're not required to let them in without a search warrant? This gives you time to (politely) shut the door on them, pick up the phone, and secure a lawyer. Once you have a lawyer CPS can't contact you directly, it all has to go through the lawyer.

The CPS worker will probably threaten you that "We could just go get a warrant and come back -- but that'll make things harder for you." *Don't buy it!* If they had a strong enough case against you (meaning strong reason to believe your children were in immediate danger), they'd probably have shown up with a warrant on the first visit.

Even if they DO come back with a warrant (highly unlikely in the majority of cases), that's still better, IMO, than if you'd let them in without one.

Rather than making things "harder" for you -- the warrant specifies what CPS is authorized to look for (it makes things harder for CPS, not you). So it protects your rights and somewhat ties their hands. Plus, there have to be pretty strong concerns about child safety for a judge to issue one.

IMO, if judges start issuing warrants just so CPS can satisfy their curiosity about what kinds of baby furniture people have -- CPS will have a hard time justifying to the public that they don't have too much time on their hands, and that they aren't just goofing off with taxpayer money.


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## Fanny H (Jul 13, 2007)

It is really interesting and somewhat disturbing to read this. In Finland we don't have that aggressive social workers, but of course they can be annoying if they want to. In here they have to have *very* strong evidence if they want to take any steps and meddle into your life.

And this talk about co-sleeping being illegal...







Im shocked, really! In here you are only regarded as a hippie, "greenie" or a bit silly if you want to co-sleep with your baby, but there has never been any discussion about it being illegal.
Of course those who are against it are talking about parent rolling over the baby and smothering it, but that's all.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fanny H* 
It is really interesting and somewhat disturbing to read this. In Finland we don't have that aggressive social workers, but of course they can be annoying if they want to. In here they have to have *very* strong evidence if they want to take any steps and meddle into your life.

Actually, it takes very strong evidence (or allegations) for a U.S. social worker to obtain a warrant to search a home, or a court order to interview and examine a child. But a lot of American parents don't know their rights, and just let the social workers come on in and do their thing.

Once you let them in, it can be hard to get rid of them. If they find things that concern them, that gives them a foothold for coming back, especially if they can persuade you to sign a care plan. But it's actually pretty hard for them to get in if you don't just open the door and let them in.


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## Jenlaana (Oct 28, 2005)

When I lived in Florida, I had a 2 bedroom home that I was purchasing, and someone called CPS on my family (someone my son's dad had offended not child related). The woman from CPS came to the house and I did let her in. She looked at our home, talked to me and my ex husband, saw DS, even saw the dirty dishes, and said we appeared to be doing just fine and the reason for her visit was invalid.

Then she asked me if I knew if my baby was going to be a boy or a girl (I was pregnant). I said no, and she mentioned that I would have to build a room on or make other arrangements if I had a girl, because I did not have room for both.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

So Jenlaana, it sounds like you were pretty lucky she didn't show up when you had two opposite-sex children living in a two-bedroom house, huh?! That tiny factor, for that particular busybody, might have prevented her from closing the case as quickly as she did.

I've heard people say, "If you've got nothing to hide, just prove it by letting them in." But you never know: I'm sure you and your husband didn't see the two bedrooms as an issue when you bought the house (I know I wouldn't), yet here came this complete stranger, telling you what remodeling you'd "have to do" if you had a girl.

I think it really pays to hold out for a search warrant (which is unlikely to ever be issued), and get a lawyer right away if you're contacted by CPS. A practice doesn't have to be illegal, to become an "issue," once CPS gets its foot in the door.


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## momma-d (Feb 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SugarAndSun* 
I have never heard of it being an issue except where adoption is concerned.

even when you adopt, there's no law that states that a crib *must* be in the home...
It's convention to have one, sure...but definitely *not* law. We'd be guilty, too, if that were the case...


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## momma-d (Feb 2, 2007)

fwiw...not all social workers are looking to take children away from their parents...I was one before DD came along, and my intent was *always* to do everything I could to keep the family together...


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma-d* 
even when you adopt, there's no law that states that a crib *must* be in the home...
It's convention to have one, sure...but definitely *not* law. We'd be guilty, too, if that were the case...









I can't understand why adoptive parents would be subject to any different laws than bio parents. I realize they're often put through a rigorous interview/investigation process _before_ adopting.

But once you adopt, you're that child's parent and have all the rights of all parents everywhere, right?


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## Fanny H (Jul 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Actually, it takes very strong evidence (or allegations) for a U.S. social worker to obtain a warrant to search a home, or a court order to interview and examine a child. But a lot of American parents don't know their rights, and just let the social workers come on in and do their thing.

Of course. I didn't mean that social workers could just walk into your homes, sorry if there was a misunderstanding.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Once you let them in, it can be hard to get rid of them. If they find things that concern them, that gives them a foothold for coming back, especially if they can persuade you to sign a care plan. But it's actually pretty hard for them to get in if you don't just open the door and let them in.

I think this is the difference between US and Finland. For what I understand, we have very strict rules how social workers do their job, and co-operate with post-birth health care. (I'm very sorry, I just can't find the right word here, I'll try to find it later)
I don't mean that Finland is in any way a sheltered place where everybody is happy and safe. Not even near. But I do believe that here people are aware of their rights and they know what authorities can or cannot do.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momma-d* 
fwiw...not all social workers are looking to take children away from their parents...I was one before DD came along, and my intent was *always* to do everything I could to keep the family together...

I realize this is probably true for many social workers, and I didn't mean to generalize. But the parent never knows if the worker knocking on the door is like you -- or happens to be someone with a bias against this family's particular lifestyle.

YOU might think it's just groovy if a family has one room that's wall-to-wall mattresses for sleeping, and uses the other bedrooms for other purposes -- thus has no beds in those rooms. But I've heard too many stories to assume that ALL social workers would keep their noses out of that one.

Rather than saying parents should buy token beds for "appearances" (not that I fault anyone for doing that, we did), I think it's just as reasonable for parents with limited space to choose _not_ to buy extra beds for show, and just know their rights when it comes to being investigated and having their homes searched.

If you hold out for a warrant (and get legal representation), it's highly unlikely that your home will EVER be searched -- though you may decide, at that time, to go ahead and get the token beds just in case. Requiring the warrant gives you a little time to consult with your lawyer and correct anything that might be a "red flag" in the unlikely event that your home _did_ end up being searched.

I agree that the likelihood of my children being snatched for co-sleeping is practically non-existent -- but the likelihood of us having our lives invaded by ongoing "interventions" if we let a social worker in and she happened to think our AP practices were "dysfunctional," and that we could "benefit from further intervention" doesn't seem all that non-existent.

I'm not saying it's probable that we'll ever have a knock on our door from CPS. We never have so far. We've also never had a house fire -- yet I think it's a good idea to have a plan of action for if it did happen. I see knowing my rights, and standing on them if CPS ever does come to our home, as similar to planning how to deal with fire.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

When a public health nurse came to my house soon after dd was born, her questions about our sleeping arrangements led me to believe that I legally need to have one... Is this true??
I don't let the public health nurses in anymore. One stopped by about a month ago because they check on the moms that are pregnant and on the state children's health program (I missed open enrollment for insurance at dh's work). She asked all sorts of questions and when I told her that the baby would be sleeping with me she said that she'd heard of CPS being called for that. Well, she won't be coming back in my house to see it then.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
I don't let the public health nurses in anymore. One stopped by about a month ago because they check on the moms that are pregnant and on the state children's health program (I missed open enrollment for insurance at dh's work). She asked all sorts of questions and when I told her that the baby would be sleeping with me she said that she'd heard of CPS being called for that. Well, she won't be coming back in my house to see it then.

I'm sorry that happened, but I'm glad you shared about it here. It helps give a more well-rounded perspective of public health nurses and social welfare workers.

I'm sure some are wonderful as a pp shared, but some are real pieces of work (there's variation there just like there is in the general population), and I don't think you have any guarantee about which sort will be showing up at your door.

Really, if I need help with my parenting, I find it much more useful to talk with some of the more experienced moms I know, than I would to talk with someone who may not have any more parenting experience than I do. If you (general you) don't know any experienced moms who parent the way you want to parent, LLL is a good place to start.


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