# Drinking beer while pregnant



## Vito's Mommy (Jan 19, 2005)

My neighbor is due in Sept. I don't know a whole lot about the effects of drinking while p/g, but I'm a slight bit concerned about my neighbor/friend. I've seen her drink 1-2 beers 4 times in the past couple of weeks. Is this harmful to the baby? I never really looked into it, as I chose not to drink or even walk thru a cloud of cigarette smoke b/c it seemed like the right thing to do. TIA,


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Alcohol is linked to mental and physcial birth defects in infants and it is widely reccomended that a mother not drink at all during pregnancy. When you drink alcohol, so does your baby... alcohol from the your bloodstream crosses into the placenta and enters the bloodstream of the fetus.

http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/5000/5534.html

_If you are pregnant, the alcohol in your bloodstream passes through the placenta to the baby so that when you have a drink, the baby has one equal in strength._


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

The advice in the US is very different to the advice given in the UK and the rest of Europe. We're advised that a non-pregnant woman can safely drink between 21 and 28 units of alcohol per week (this figure was recently revised upwards) and a pregnant woman can safely have "an occasional" drink- generally, well under 7 units a week. Whilst I'm not dismissing the dangers of foetal alcohol syndrome, it's only in the last century with the rise of "processed' alcohols- all the crap that goes into beer, wine and spirits that bears no relation to hops, yeast and water- that this has become a major concern. Guinness and other stouts were traditionally recommended as a tonic to help iron levels, and to calm and relax aggressive BH contractions, whilst fermented liquids were traditional table fare for EVERYONE for centuries because the water was, fundamentally, unsafe to drink. Often, women would stay away from whiskies and strong liquor but drink ales, mead and wine freely.
I wouldn't worry. A pregnant woman is an adult, with the right to make her own decisions. It sounds to me like she has chosen to limit her drinking responsibly, and for you to question her judgement could cause her great pain.


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

In the first trimester, it's an absolute no-no. In the third trimester, I personally feel there is some wiggle room. I think the strict cautions against drinking at ALL during pregnancy are due mainly to the majority of people's lack of self control and inability to be moderate (and also the medical profession seeking to minimize liability). JMHO.

Regardless, it is her body, her choice.


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## etoilech (Mar 25, 2004)

We are told here that an occaisional glass of wine or beer is fine. I don't mean to sound trite, but it's not really your job to police her.

Olivia


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## AugustLia23 (Mar 18, 2004)

I had a neighbor when I was younger who, while pregnant with her third, had a glass(or 3) of wine just about every night in her 2nd and 3rd trimester. Her some came out just perfectly healthy and fine. I believe that some babies are more prone to FAS, plus it's a much higher risk in the 1st trimester. Not that I'm saying everybody should, but I'm saying it's not the huge danger that some people would have you believe.


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## BensMom (May 4, 2002)

The difference in opinion between Europe and the US is so funny. The other day while we were playing poker, my husband and a friend were talking about this new Sam Adams beer that they really liked. I asked DH for his so I could take a taste - a sip! He freaked out and some other guy at the table was like, its only a sip, it wont hurt anything. My good friend from Sweden had some swedish glog (sp?) at a Christmas party when we were pregnant with our first children and everyone was whispering about her.

Over on this side of the pond, we tend to be so overly cautious about everything it makes my head spin. You can thank our very busy legal system!


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## FancyD (Apr 22, 2005)

When my mom had us, you were given Guinness after the birth. It really is different in Europe. I told my dr. that I had a beer, and she near died. Please. Also, when I was in the NICU, the nurses told me that they discount the mother's info regarding alcohol consumption, because she's probably lying.







I guess every mother who has a drink is a total addict liar.


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## lovnbnhome (Sep 24, 2004)

8 yrs ago my sister was pg with her first. We (as a family didn't know she was pg) She was a teen and we were in Europe for the New Year. She drank LOTS of beer in one night and the rest of our stay there (3wks) we all drank liquor, wine, beer...you name it~it was a family vacation of eating, drinking and having fun... It turns out that she was just pg (like 3-4 wks) and was sick as a dog with morning sickness. The baby, her daughter was born in perfect condition and she has had no problems.

I guess what I'm saying is that it all depends on each person doing the drinking. Yes drinking during pg is a no-no but I know some who have had no drinks with lots of infant problems, and then others who have done drinking and had no problems. My Mom has always encouraged me to have a glass of wine every once in a while to relax and enjoy...I *never* did b/c it scares me to death. Maybe it has to do with genes???

I like that you are concerned for her...have you brought it up with her???


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## lilgreen (Dec 5, 2003)

Is there any chance it was a non-alcoholic beer? The cans or bottles look just like real beers. (Like the Becks non-alc beer bottle is practically identical to the real stuff)

I've been craving beer this pg (never drink it normally), so I've been drinking some non-alcoholic beer and my neighbour was shocked until I pointed out it was non-alcoholic.

Just a possibility...

Cheers,
lilgreen


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## chiro_kristin (Dec 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *etoilech*
I don't mean to sound trite, but it's not really your job to police her.
Olivia

I don't think "a slight bit concerned about my neighbor/friend" equals inappropriate policing. She never said anything about even talking to her about it, let alone calling in the authorities.

VM, I think it is thoughtful that you wanted to ask for the opinions of others and that you are just concerned about the welfare of her baby. I like community mentality.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *etoilech*
We are told here that an occaisional glass of wine or beer is fine. I don't mean to sound trite, but it's not really your job to police her.

Olivia

It's not policing when it's genuine concern. Why drink at all if there is any possible risk? Do you have to drink THAT BAD when you are pregnant? Why can't you go on the side of caution and just obstain for a little while? Let's face it, this mother isn't having a glass of wine at New Years or a beer on the 4th of July. Why drink 4 days a week (or possibly more?) I think that is a selfish and risky choice on behalf of that pregnant mother. Like it or not, everytime she drinks a beer, so does her baby. I know plenty of women (and men) who drink 2 beers and get a buzz... and while some don't, it's *only* because of their bodies adjusted to the effects of alcohol. I wonder what sort of a buzz the fetus gets after 2 beers? Seeing how it's body isnt' adjusted to a regular drinking habit

That's the whole theory behind half these women on the forums not vaccinating thier children isn't it? A possible risk? And yet, what benefit does drinking booze offer?

Sorry, I respectfully disagree with a lot of the above posts.


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## andreac (Jul 13, 2003)

MrsMoe - EVERYTHING we do carries risks and it is up to each individual to decide which risks we are willing to take. Both the CNM I had with my first pregnancy and the CPM I have with this one say that the occasional beer or glass of wine is fine. To call another person's choice selfish is rude. I've decided to forgo routine ultrasounds with this pregnancy becuause I honestly don't see any benefit, but I would never call someone who DOES choose one selfish! When the US has infant & maternal mortality rates better than the rest of the world (espescially Europe) I might be more willing to blindly follow American obstetrical advice, but until then, I think I'm just as qualified to judge for myself the risks I am willing to take as some strangers over the internet.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *andreac*
MrsMoe - EVERYTHING we do carries risks and it is up to each individual to decide which risks we are willing to take. Both the CNM I had with my first pregnancy and the CPM I have with this one say that the occasional beer or glass of wine is fine. To call another person's choice selfish is rude. I've decided to forgo routine ultrasounds with this pregnancy becuause I honestly don't see any benefit, but I would never call someone who DOES choose one selfish! When the US has infant & maternal mortality rates better than the rest of the world (espescially Europe) I might be more willing to blindly follow American obstetrical advice, but until then, I think I'm just as qualified to judge for myself the risks I am willing to take as some strangers over the internet.


How is drinking booze during pregnancy not selfish? Explain why this is not a selfish choice for the mother, as her baby will drink alcohol, and what benefit does drinking reap for the mother (there isnt' any- drinking is purely for pleasure.) You are obviously touchy to my post, and I am honestly sorry if I hit a nerve with you. My apologies if my wording came across too strong.


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## andreac (Jul 13, 2003)

Honestly, your post didn't really hit any personal nerves with me (regarding drinking while pg, which is what I'm guessing you mean), I guess it's like you said, maybe your wording hit me a little strongly.







_I just think that given that there is certainly no consensus on whether or not the occassional beer or glass of wine is harmful that it is really something best left up to individual to decide._ As several previous posters have said, advice is totally different in Europe on this issue and they don't seem to be having problems with rampant fetal alcohol sydrome. Even within the US, some docs will say never, some will say a little is ok.

To me, it's just another example of not trusting women to make wise choices for their own bodies...like we're too stupid to know what "in moderation" means so they just tell us NO! I have the same attitude towards the many food restrictions that are thrust upon so many pg women. Things like, don't eat soft cheese...when really it's not "soft cheeses" that are unsafe, it's unpasteurized cheese that's poses a risk, but for some reason PG women aren't smart enough to read the label to see if any given cheese is pasteurized or not...so NO! It's an attitude that is SOOO irritating to me.

I totally respect anyone's decision to abstain completely from alcohol during pg, I just wish we could do the same for a women who makes a different choice (an occassional beer I mean, obviously no binging!). Obviously, you are free to judge whomever you want for whatever you see fit, it just seems that there are a lot of unknowns in this situation and no one really has all the answers.

Peace mama.


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

Mrs. Moe wrote:

Quote:

and what benefit does drinking reap for the mother (there isnt' any- drinking is purely for pleasure.)
A glass of wine or beer may help the expectant mother relax, particuarly if she is feeling under a lot of stress which can cause contractions and other ill effects. Relaxing can provide both physical and mental benefits to the mother, and thereby helps her baby as well. (Again, not talking about the first trimester here, or high risk pregnancies and/or a propensity for complications in general.)

I agree with Andreac, a lot of this is about not trusting the pregnant mother to make informed decision and to exercise self-control/ moderation.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
...what benefit does drinking reap for the mother (there isnt' any- drinking is purely for pleasure.)

I remember the first drink I ever took when pregnant. I was about 5 months along with ds, and I hadn't slept _at all_ for three nights straight. I was an absolute wreck...I'd tried warm baths, milk, yoga, meditation...just could not sleep.

So - I thought about trying a sleeping pill, but decided to have a drink about a half hour before bed instead. I was really nervous about even doing that! But, it seemed to work. I was relaxed enough to actually sleep that night and felt better than I had in days.

I had a total of three drinks that pregnancy...I hardly think that makes me "selfish", especially as I had already discussed it with my doctor.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom*
Mrs. Moe wrote:

A glass of wine or beer may help the expectant mother relax, particuarly if she is feeling under a lot of stress which can cause contractions and other ill effects. Relaxing can provide both physical and mental benefits to the mother, and thereby helps her baby as well. (Again, not talking about the first trimester here, or high risk pregnancies and/or a propensity for complications in general.)

I agree with Andreac, a lot of this is about not trusting the pregnant mother to make informed decision and to exercise self-control/ moderation.

Why would a person need to turn alcohol in order to "relax?" Are there not other forms of relaxation that wouldn't feed the unborn fetus alcohol?


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## Vito's Mommy (Jan 19, 2005)

Thank you for the replies. MrsMoe, thanks for the link. Etolilech, I came in this forum looking for information from my fellow MDCer's, as I was concerned about my neighbor's drinking since I'm not thoroughly educated on the effects of alcohol and pregnancy. I'll thank you for not making such accussations against me in the future







.
Chiro, thanks for the back up







.
Can FAS cause speech problems? Thanks again everyone.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vito's Mommy*
Thank you for the replies. MrsMoe, thanks for the link. Etolilech, I came in this forum looking for information from my fellow MDCer's, as I was concerned about my neighbor's drinking since I'm not thoroughly educated on the effects of alcohol and pregnancy. I'll thank you for not making such accussations against me in the future







.
Chiro, thanks for the back up







.
Can FAS cause speech problems? Thanks again everyone.

Yes, it can. They can also have issues with hearing (hearing effects speech.) Some times children who have fetal alcohol syndrome have noticeable quirky physcial facial abnormalities, such as the tips of thier ears can curl downward.

FAE is fetal alcohol effects - a less severe form of FAS where a child does not have all the symtoms of a child with the FAS disorder. FAE rarely has facial abnormailies.

FAS children are typically born to those mothers who drank large amounts of alcohol.

http://www.fetalalcohol.com/what-is-fase.htm
Here is a very informative link about FAS and FAE


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

Mrs. Moe,
I don't want to get into a debate with you, but just to clarify, you wrote:

Quote:

Why would a person need to turn alcohol in order to "relax?" Are there not other forms of relaxation that wouldn't feed the unborn fetus alcohol?
I didn't mean to imply that it should be a woman's sole or even _first_ means of reaching a relaxed state. I was simply providing a counter to your statement that there are not any benefits, besides pleasure, for the mother in drinking alcohol.

And let's just be clear here. We're talking about _a beer_. Not vodka and hard liquor.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom*

And let's just be clear here. We're talking about _a beer_. Not vodka and hard liquor.


A drink is a drink. It doesn't matter if it's vodka or rum. One alcoholic beverage is one alcoholic beverage, regardless of it's taste or form. A single serving of beer is equal to a single serving of vodka.


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## pamamidwife (May 7, 2003)

there is so much new research coming out on this, but it seems to never make mainstream media. in our current culture, pregnant women are treated like imbeciles that have no common sense (no hot tubs! no soft cheeses! no sushi! no wine!).

they're finding that more and more Fetal Alcohol Syndrome and Fetal Alcohol Effects are coming from a genetic defect that makes these babies more prone to FAS/FAE.

In my eyes, a woman's own common sense rules. If we're talking about an occasional beer, things are fine. I'd even feel ok drinking a glass of wine every night if I was pregnant. However, that is ME. I did have about four glasses of wine in my pregnancy.

This is a HOT topic here at MDC with LOADS of judgment around it. Of course, there is less judgment about eating meat with hormones and antibiotics in it, consuming NutraSweet, or even taking narcotics right before your baby is born for labor.

Bottom rule: mothers should listen to their intution. We live in a culture that thrives on spreading fear and making women - especially mothers - feel as if they are not perfect unless they follow a certain routine....and it creates a ton of guilt and shame.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

We aren't talking about a single drink once in a while. The poster is questioning a woman who drinks on a regular basis during pregnancy.

Trusting your body is wonderful, but trusting an alcoholic beverage that you willingly put into your body on a regular basis that the fetus is also going to have in it's developing body is a whole new ballpark.

If there is a possible risk, why drink? Is it THAT important that you do?

Over and over I hear mothers who refuse to vaccinate thier children against disease due to possible risks. But drinking is acceptable?







:

You haven't seen or interacted with FAS children. I have. This is something that really tugs at my heart strings.

A 2001 - Wayne State University research study
6/7 yr old children of mothers who had as little as one drink a week during pregnancy were more likely than children of non-drinkers to have behavior problems, such as aggressive and delinquent behaviors. This study also found that children whose mothers drank any amount alcohol during pregnancy were more than three times as likely as unexposed children to demonstrate delinquent behaviors.

University of Washington research study
Mothers were social drinkers and an average of about two drinks per day - children ages 7 were given intelligence tests and these children scored seven points lower than the average for all children in the study. By the age 14 these casual light alcohol-exposed children remained more likely to have learning issues, especially in teh areas of mathematics and memory, as well as behavioral issues.


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## pamamidwife (May 7, 2003)

why would anyone risk a lower IQ by not breastfeeding?

come on, MrsMoe - you're even talking about an occasional drink here and how "dangerous" it is.

I just don't agree. And that's ok. You don't know my history and you don't know what sort of kids I know and have been around.

I can see you are passionate about this issue. That's appreciated. However, I disagree.

In many places around the world, alcohol is consumed throughout pregnancy. Not in large "let's get drunk" amounts, but frequently with dinner or a meal. Where is the rampant FAS/FAE population there? What about when clean water wasn't readily available and wheat ales were drank by everyone - including kids? Were they all - or mostly - FAS/FAE babies?

I just think there is alot we don't know, of course, but we do treat all pregnant women like idiots in this country. Scare the sh&$t out of them and maybe we can make them feel guilty about how they raise them instead.

I'm not saying that four beers in one week is necessarily a thing to blow off - it could be random or it could be the sign of a problem.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pamamidwife*
point made.

ah, the joys of being on a high horse.

I especially appreciate the assumption that I don't know any kids with FAS or have never been around any. Nice try.


There was no reason for the above comments, it does not pertain to the issue and is not relevant to the thread.

To me, listening to a "woman's intuition" is not logical, as I don't even buy into the idea of intuition. I buy into medical facts, data and research of top universities.


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## etoilech (Mar 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vito's Mommy*
Etolilech, I came in this forum looking for information from my fellow MDCer's, as I was concerned about my neighbor's drinking since I'm not thoroughly educated on the effects of alcohol and pregnancy. I'll thank you for not making such accussations against me in the future







.

Give me a break. All I said was it's not considered to be *risky* behavior HERE to have an occaisional drink. Most of Europe and Asia should be deformed, by all accounts. I don't know about you but, I *hate* to be tisk-tisked about such things. Maybe she knows the risks herself. I am pretty sure most women at least have been told to LIMIT alcohol consumption during pregnancy. Is anyone really so obtuse not to?

I understand your concern, and I can feel where the concern is coming from. I just wouldn't be surprised if you perhaps got a bit of an ear full if you choose to discuss it with her, people can be touchy. Instead of seeing it as coming from a place of concern, she may see it as an attack on her. Just as you saw *my* comment as one, (which it wasn't).

Relax. I understand your concern.

Olivia


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pamamidwife*
why would anyone risk a lower IQ by not breastfeeding?

come on, MrsMoe - you're even talking about an occasional drink here and how "dangerous" it is.

I just don't agree. And that's ok. You don't know my history and you don't know what sort of kids I know and have been around.

I can see you are passionate about this issue. That's appreciated. However, I disagree.

In many places around the world, alcohol is consumed throughout pregnancy. Not in large "let's get drunk" amounts, but frequently with dinner or a meal. Where is the rampant FAS/FAE population there? What about when clean water wasn't readily available and wheat ales were drank by everyone - including kids? Were they all - or mostly - FAS/FAE babies?

I just think there is alot we don't know, of course, but we do treat all pregnant women like idiots in this country. Scare the sh&$t out of them and maybe we can make them feel guilty about how they raise them instead.

I'm not saying that four beers in one week is necessarily a thing to blow off - it could be random or it could be the sign of a problem.


I see you edited your thread. Thank you for removing your unkind comments.

If you read my above posts, 2 drinks a day for a pregnant woman lwoered children's IQ score by 7 points in a middle class family, as well as the child was more likley than non-exposed children to suffer from behavior disirders.

The issue isn't just FAS or FAE. While FAS may be from drinking large quanities of alcohol, and FAE less amounts than that of a FAS child, each condition is linked to the degree of the pregnant mother's drinking habits. The more she drinks, the worse a child is harmed and the wrose the degree of FAS or FAE. And if ther are any underlying genetic issues, FAS and FAE are far more likely to strike a child.

Again, the mother in question is not drinking on occasion, she is a regular drinker.


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## etoilech (Mar 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
There was no reason for the above comments, it does not pertain to the issue and is not relevant to the thread.

To me, listening to a "woman's intuition" is not logical, as I don't even buy into the idea of intuition. I buy into medical facts, data and research of top universities.

I guess you skipped a few journal articles from over here stating that low to moderate alcohol consumption does not pose a significant risk. If you're interested there are some interesting articles from the Royal College of Obstetrics and Gynecology in the UK regarding the subject.

I also buy into the *fact* that Europe does not have more children with FAS than North America, despite our "selfish" ways. It's called a cultural difference.

Olivia


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## pamamidwife (May 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
listening to a "woman's intuition" is not logical, as I don't even buy into the idea of intuition. I buy into medical facts, data and research of top universities.


Wow, this is quite possibly the saddest thing I have read on here in a very long time. I'm so sorry.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pamamidwife*
Wow, this is quite possibly the saddest thing I have read on here in a very long time. I'm so sorry.


I'm won't apologize for being an atheist. Just the same as I wouldn't tell you I "felt sorry for you that you believed in God or that you were spiritual."


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## pamamidwife (May 7, 2003)

MrsMoe, I didn't consider my comments unkind. In fact, it is an element of judgment that you voice when you speak about this issue. It is wrong to make assumptions about people and put yourself above them based on what you *believe* to be true.

I removed them because my beef with your low tolerance on this issue wasn't helpful in the argument in whole.


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## etoilech (Mar 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
I'm won't apologize for being an atheist.









: Huh?


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## pamamidwife (May 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
I'm won't apologize for being an atheist.


I had no idea that listening to our bodies was against atheism.

Even my dh, who is an atheist/borderline humanist, feels that the only sole source of knowledge he is given is from his own experience and body.

Still, I feel sorry reading that. It has nothing to do with your lack of religion. It has everything to do with the fact that women have intuition for a reason as mothers.

What do you call that funny feeling when you're in a room with someone creepy? Just a "fact"??

As the mother of a daughter, I taught her to ALWAYS listen to her intuition (gut) to keep her safe. This is vital for girls.

But, I digress. I have an issue with your arrogance, and that's the last I'll post on this matter. Should you feel the need to bitch at me some more, please do it through a PM.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pamamidwife*
MrsMoe, I didn't consider my comments unkind. In fact, it is an element of judgment that you voice when you speak about this issue. It is wrong to make assumptions about people and put yourself above them based on what you *believe* to be true.

I removed them because my beef with your low tolerance on this issue wasn't helpful in the argument in whole.

It is unkind when you use words like "high horse"

Or when I state I don't feel woman's inutition is real and I choose to instead reply on medical data and you respond with "quite possibly the saddest thing I have read"

I feel saying these things is unkind. Just being honest with you.

My issue was never against a single occasional drink of alcohol, but that of drinking numerous drinks on a regular basis.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pamamidwife*
I had no idea that listening to our bodies was against atheism.

Even my dh, who is an atheist/borderline humanist, feels that the only sole source of knowledge he is given is from his own experience and body.

Still, I feel sorry reading that. It has nothing to do with your lack of religion. It has everything to do with the fact that women have intuition for a reason as mothers.

What do you call that funny feeling when you're in a room with someone creepy? Just a "fact"??

As the mother of a daughter, I taught her to ALWAYS listen to her intuition (gut) to keep her safe. This is vital for girls.

But, I digress. I have an issue with your arrogance, and that's the last I'll post on this matter. Should you feel the need to bitch at me some more, please do it through a PM.


Intuition means _"the power or faculty of attaining to direct knowledge or cognition without evident rational thought and inference."_ So to me, intution isn't logical. That is my belief, and saying that it's the saddest thing you ever heard is mockery of my beliefs or lack thereof. To me, intuition is supernatural.

Listen, I am not a mushy touchy feely sort of person. When I discuss an issue such as this, it is without emotion. I not being judgemental, I am simply disclosing facts with emotional detachment. If my posting style is comming across as cold I apologize, as this is the way I chose to communicate.


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## beachcomber (May 11, 2005)

I totally agree with flapjack's perspective way at the top of this thread. There is a long history of safe alcohol comsumption in pregnancy that has been completely discounted on this side of the pond in an effort to cover the potential for malpractise accusations. It's become almost surreal. Common sense and generations of history now mean nothing compared to the "infinite" wisdom of a group of medical practitioners who have only been seriously handling pregnancy and birth for about 150 years. Yet these medical professionals assume (and are treated with) an air of the divine. We are expected to defer to them in all things to do with our pregnancies and if we don't, our commitment to our babies and even our sanity is questioned. It really galls me.

Pregnant women in the US and by default Canada are policed far too much by doctors, spouses, friends and neighbors. It's bordering on obsessive. It is totally unacceptable that society has been granted this right to monitor, report on and chastise pregnant women. No one is watched as closely as the pregnant woman. We lose self determination because suddenly everyone has a right to comment on everything we put into our mouthes, be it an herbal tea, a vitamin or a morsel of food.


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## andreac (Jul 13, 2003)

:

Perfectly said beachcomber!!


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## beachcomber (May 11, 2005)

Thanks for the kudos, Andreac.
This is, as you may have guessed, a bit of a hot button issue for me.


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## Spark (Nov 21, 2001)

I'm just so sad for the European women of whom the majority consume alcohol during pregnancy and consequently the majority of their babies are born with FAS or other ailments due to alcohol consumption. Why the heck will European doctors realize that they're damaging 90% of their babies!?!? I mean, Europe will just be a wasteland in 10 years or so!!!

From: http://www.patient.co.uk/showdoc/27000506/ and hundreds of other European websites.

Quote:

Why should I limit the amount I drink when I am pregnant?

If you have one or two drinks of alcohol (one or two units), once or twice a week, it is unlikely to harm your unborn baby. However, the amount of alcohol that is definitely safe in pregnancy is not known. So, many women have little or no alcohol when they are pregnant. The very early stages of pregnancy may be the most vulnerable time. This is why it is just as important to limit alcohol when you are trying to become pregnant.

If you drink heavily you have an increased risk of miscarriage. Also, alcohol can cause serious harm to the baby's growth and brain development. For example, studies have shown that:

Pregnant women who drink more than 15 units a week have an increased risk of having a baby with a low birth weight.
Pregnant women who drink more than 20 units a week have an increased risk of having a baby with some damage to the brain causing impaired intellect.
Pregnant women who drink very heavily risk having a baby with 'Fetal Alcohol Syndrome'. Babies with this syndrome have brain damage, a low birth weight, and facial malformations.
Bottom line, if you feel strongly about not drinking during pregnancy, then don't do it. If you feel strongly about drinking during pregnancy, MAKE SURE you do responsibly.

To the OP, I'd be concerned, too, to see a pregnant woman drinking on more than one occasion. It's not that she was just drinking, but that from your description she was drinking in what sounds like excess. I do know that Caliber looks a lot like regular beer though. I'm hoping she was just drinking that!!!


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## Vito's Mommy (Jan 19, 2005)

Olivia, I'm not in the mood for an argument, but I will say this:
If you were to read my OP and my reply to you, (again) you'd see I came here for info and I said NOTHING about *policing* my neighbor or *choosing to discuss it with her* nor did I say I found your reply *an attack* Those are your words, not mine. I found your replies a bit crass and unimportant to my inquiry. No biggie.

Thanks to those who replied with helpful info on both sides of the topic. I didn't mean for there to be an issue







, I just wanted to know more about drinking while pregnant. And now I do.


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## alicia622 (May 8, 2005)

From my limited knowledge- drinking anything is dangerous because they really don't know how much is enough to cause FAS/FAE. Physical characteristics of FAS occur very early on in the pregnancy but the other problems associated with alcohol can occur throughout the pregnancy. If I had succeeded in getting pregnant, I wouldn't have risked it.

FAS/FAE is very sad because it is completely avoidable.


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## beachcomber (May 11, 2005)

I just want to emphasize that what is considered acceptable for pregnant women to eat, drink or do is an entirely cultural construct. We've already seen ample evidence there that cultures outside the US don't hold the same "absolutely nothing is safe _until proven safe_" belief system. The reasons are varied and I'm sure have at least a little to do with the culture of lawsuits that has developed in the US.

But the bottom line is this: No one knows 100% what is or is not safe in pregnancy. However, that said, there is ample historical evidence to prove reasonable boundaries and expectations. It's up to each woman to make her own decision and no one but her and her medical professional (dr or midwife) has the right to judge that.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

double post


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beachcomber*
I just want to emphasize that what is considered acceptable for pregnant women to eat, drink or do is an entirely cultural construct. We've already seen ample evidence there that cultures outside the US don't hold the same "absolutely nothing is safe _until proven safe_" belief system. The reasons are varied and I'm sure have at least a little to do with the culture of lawsuits that has developed in the US.

But the bottom line is this: No one knows 100% what is or is not safe in pregnancy. However, that said, there is ample historical evidence to prove reasonable boundaries and expectations. It's up to each woman to make her own decision and no one but her and her medical professional (dr or midwife) has the right to judge that.


Perhaps you didn't read the research study that I posted then? Pregnant mothers who had only 2 alcoholic beverages a day in a middle class family were researched, as well as their children in a 14 year study. Those children had IQ's lower than their middle class peers by 7 points and were far more likely to have behavior related disorders and by the age of 14 results were the same.

A pregnant woman who drinks on a daily or regular basis - simply put - is making her unborn fetus drink on a regular basis. If a mother INSISTS on drinking - which holds no benefit to her or her fetus - then sure, it's her choice, but it's not in the best interest of her developing child.

It's also the mothers choice to smoke or not smoke marijunana, smoke or not smoke tobacco, or try or not try recreational drugs. It's also the mothers choice to not eat properly or take care of her body. It's the mother's choice to do a lot of things, including aborting her unborn fetus... but these choices do not make it a healthy positive choice for her unborn baby.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
Perhaps you didn't read the research study that I posted then? Pregnant mothers who had only 2 alcoholic beverages a day in a middle class family were researched, as well as their children in a 14 year study.

"only 2 alcoholic beverages a day"??
I've never met anybody, other than two alcoholics (I'm talking really hardcore drinkers) who wouldn't consider that to be too much alcohol. There's lots of evidence that more than one drink a day is detrimental to a woman's health even if she's not pregnant.

I was a total druggie when I was young...lots of pot and acid, some mushrooms, some amphetamines - and quite a lot of alcohol. I quite often drank most of a fifth of something on the weekend...and I've never come close to drinking two drinks _daily_. That's not trivial.


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## beachcomber (May 11, 2005)

Mrs Moe,

Quote:

Perhaps you didn't read the research study that I posted then? Pregnant mothers who had only 2 alcoholic beverages a day in a middle class family were researched, as well as their children in a 14 year study. Those children had IQ's lower than their middle class peers by 7 points and were far more likely to have behavior related disorders and by the age of 14 results were the same.
In light of fostering good communication, I'm going to ignore the tone of your remarks and speak only to the content.

The level of consumption cited in your study (2 drinks per day) is not considered mild or even moderate use by most health practitioners standards. In fact, everything I've seen be they studies or reports, brochures or websites, about FAS/FAE cites that _regular consumption_ (more than 1 drink per day) poses a risk of FAS/FAE. I don't think anyone has argued that point with you. I think that all the women here who are participants in this discussion would agree that the 2 drinks per day cited in your study indeed constitutes a dangerous amount for any pregnant woman. But you're not addressing the concepts of occasion use and cultural difference. You're choosing to focus only on high levels of consumption and are using that as your basis for judgement.

The point that many of us have been trying to make is subtler than that and has to do with occasional use and a long history of healthy babies being born to women in other cultures where the doctrine around alcohol consumption is less strict.

Frankly, Mrs Moe, you come from a culture and a perspective that is extremely prescriptive in terms of what is considered appropriate behavior for pregnant women. Not all the posters here come from your culture or share your perspective. Me among them. I think that most women have enough common sense to do the reading and make their own informed choices. And I reiterate that no one has the right to judge pregnant women in the ways they're regularly monitored and judged in the United States.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beachcomber*
Mrs Moe,

In light of fostering good communication, I'm going to ignore the tone of your remarks and speak only to the content. Your research study is not speaking to the issue that's being hotly debated in this thread. The issue is not abuse of alcohol but informed occasional use.

The level of consumption cited in your study (2 drinks per day) is not considered mild or even moderate use by most health practitioners standards. In fact, everything I've seen be they studies or reports, brochures or websites, about FAS/FAE cites that _regular consumption_ (more than 1 drink per day) poses a risk of FAS/FAE. I don't think anyone has argued that point with you. I think that all the women here who are participants in this discussion would agree that the 2 drinks per day cited in your study indeed constitutes a dangerous amount for any pregnant woman. But you're not addressing the concepts of occasion use and cultural difference. You're choosing to focus only on high levels of consumption and are using that as your basis for judgement.

The point that many of us have been trying to make is subtler than that and has to do with occasional use and a long history of healthy babies being born to women in other cultures where the doctrine around alcohol consumption is less strict.

Frankly, Mrs Moe, you come from a culture and a perspective that is extremely prescriptive in terms of what is considered appropriate behavior for pregnant women. Not all the posters here come from your culture or share your perspective. Me among them. I think that most women have enough common sense to do the reading and make their own informed choices. And I reiterate that no one has the right to judge pregnant women in the ways they're regularly monitored and judged in the United States.


It has nothing to do with judgement, this is where you are mistaken. It also has nothing to do with dislike of alcohol. Before I got pregnant, I was a pot smoker and before my allergy to alcohol got out of control (severe rash and issues with breathing) I was a drinker as well. I have nothing against drinking alcohol, so please stop stating I do.

Would you pour beer into your baby's bottle and feed it to your baby? How about inject it into a developing fetus?

*Medical research studies speak for themselves*... and I won't lower my unborn baby's IQ by 7 points and cause behavioral disorders so I can have MY beer. Just like while I am pregnant, I won't smoke a joint and I watch what I eat and I take my pre-natals.

Did you read the initial post, or all the other posts?









My issue was also never an occasional beer, which I state REPEATEDLY in this thread.

You mention REGLUAR consumption being a cause for FAS/FAE. *The poster's friend drinks 2 drinks on a regular basis*. While I doubt her unborn baby will have fullblown FAS from drinking 2 beers a day, she will may likely lower her baby's IQ score by 7 points.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
"only 2 alcoholic beverages a day"??
I've never met anybody, other than two alcoholics (I'm talking really hardcore drinkers) who wouldn't consider that to be too much alcohol. There's lots of evidence that more than one drink a day is detrimental to a woman's health even if she's not pregnant.

I was a total druggie when I was young...lots of pot and acid, some mushrooms, some amphetamines - and quite a lot of alcohol. I quite often drank most of a fifth of something on the weekend...and I've never come close to drinking two drinks _daily_. That's not trivial.

And their is lots of evidence that one drink a day is good for your heart. The debate isn't about drinking, but about drinking during pregnancy and fetal harm.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
*The poster's friend drinks 2 drinks on a regular basis*.

1-2 drinks 4 times in "the last couple of weeks" - that's a max. of 8 beers in 14 days...not quite the same thing as the 2 drinks a day cited in the study you reference.

Besides, I'd want to see that study, anyway...did they correct for whether the moms breastfed or formula fed? Did they correct (I doubt it, as it would be very difficult) for levels of stimulation in the home of the infants (eg. time in front of the TV vs. being read...stuck in a swing vs. interaction with people...etc.)? Did they correct for maternal diet? for prenatals? for childhood diet? for childhood exercise levels? for childhood sleep levels?

I am inclined to think that someone who is drinking two drinks _every_ day is probably not the epitome of a mom looking out for her unborn infant's welfare - that doesn't mean it was necessarily the alcohol itself that caused the 7 point drop.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
1-2 drinks 4 times in "the last couple of weeks" - that's a max. of 8 beers in 14 days...not quite the same thing as the 2 drinks a day cited in the study you reference.

Besides, I'd want to see that study, anyway...did they correct for whether the moms breastfed or formula fed? Did they correct (I doubt it, as it would be very difficult) for levels of stimulation in the home of the infants (eg. time in front of the TV vs. being read...stuck in a swing vs. interaction with people...etc.)? Did they correct for maternal diet? for prenatals? for childhood diet? for childhood exercise levels? for childhood sleep levels?

I am inclined to think that someone who is drinking two drinks _every_ day is probably not the epitome of a mom looking out for her unborn infant's welfare - that doesn't mean it was necessarily the alcohol itself that caused the 7 point drop.

These are the times she has seen her friend drinking, this obviously does not mean that her friend is limited to drinking only on the occasions that her friend sees her.

Here are the research studies:

_A 2001 - Wayne State University research study

http://www.news-medical.net/?id=6276

6/7 yr old children of mothers who had as little as one drink a week during pregnancy were more likely than children of non-drinkers to have behavior problems, such as aggressive and delinquent behaviors. This study also found that children whose mothers drank any amount alcohol during pregnancy were more than three times as likely as unexposed children to demonstrate delinquent behaviors.

University of Washington research study
http://www.come-over.to/FAS/FASresearch.htm
http://www.come-over.to/FAS/FASresearch.htm#FASmoderate

*10% risk of having abnormal or FAS child if drinking ranged from 1 to 2 ounces of absolute alcohol per day (2-4 drinks)*

Mothers were social drinkers and an average of about two drinks per day - children ages 7 were given intelligence tests and these children scored seven points lower than the average for all children in the study. By the age 14 these casual light alcohol-exposed children remained more likely to have learning issues, especially in the areas of mathematics and memory, as well as behavioral issues._


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Time for dd's nap, so I could only read through the first one. So, it adjusts for some factors, not for others (naturally)...but it functioned through _interviews_. The data is flawed right out the chute.

Anyway...it boggles my mind that studies like this are used to lay down the law to a pregnant woman who wants to drink a glass of champagne at her friend's wedding. The women in these studies (from what I've looked over already) are _not_ light drinkers...not by any stretch of the imagination.


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## kalirush (Jun 14, 2005)

I do feel the need to point out, as a scientist, that just because a study says so doesn't make it true. There's an awful lot of questionable science being done in the world, much of it in peer-reviewed journals. Storm Bride's questions are very relevant.

Secondly, your first link doesn't match the description of the study that you have next to it.

Thirdly, none of your links pertain to women drinking less that two drinks a day. Two drinks a day (14/week) is a lot more than the 3-4/week that most people here seem to be talking about as reasonable.

You may prefer to err on the side of caution (and I'm with you- but then, I've never been a drinker), but it doesn't mean that others are being irresponsible. And please stop invoking science as though it were Truth.

Julia


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## beachcomber (May 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
I was a drinker as well. I have nothing against drinking alcohol, so please stop stating I do.

I didn't say that. What I said was that you are using a study that was based on high levels of consumption. I also said you're choosing to ignore what a lot of people here have said about making informed choices about occasional used based on cultural differences. Your study doesn't address OCCASIONAL use.

And, as Storm Bride pointed out, there may be validity issues. The study may not have corrected for a number of pertinent details. And as Julia pointed out, not all science is as reliable as we would like to believe. Science does not equal TRUTH. It's simply information. And like all information it has to be weighed and balanced, critiqued and analysed for errors and falsehoods.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
Would you pour beer into your baby's bottle and feed it to your baby? How about inject it into a developing fetus?

Please refrain from using guilt-inducing statements such as this if you are going to discuss this with me. I will not be swayed by guilt, judgement or condemnation. And you are making some huge assumptions about my literacy, my intelligence and my behavior which I truly resent.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
*Medical research studies speak for themselves*...

I've already stated that I'm not arguing with medical research, nor am I arguing with the study you cited. I'm simply pointing out that you're using an example of clinical excess to prescribe behavior instead of simply providing information and trusting women _to make their own informed choices._

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
and I won't lower my unborn baby's IQ by 7 points and cause behavioral disorders so I can have MY beer. Just like while I am pregnant, I won't smoke a joint and I watch what I eat and I take my pre-natals.

Again with the guilt-inducing statements. You're inferring by this statement that I will, perhaps? Or that other women here who have countered your prescriptive statements and rhetoric will. I dislike this type of manipulative statement. It sets you up as judge and jury in a situation where you simply do not have those rights to exercise.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
Did you read the initial post, or all the other posts?









Yes, I did. I've read this entire thread. And I've found that you are behaving in a very judgemental and dismissive way. I'm not illiterate or stupid because I disagree with your prescriptive approach. I am an educated, informed and intelligent person and you have no right to question that. However much you may feel entitled to, as evidenced by your posts.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
My issue was also never an occasional beer, which I state REPEATEDLY in this thread.

Then why do you keep on beating the same horse? You're the one repeatedly citing your study which was quite obviously based on high levels of regular use. You're the one making statements like:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
Would you pour beer into your baby's bottle and feed it to your baby? How about inject it into a developing fetus?

I won't lower my unborn baby's IQ by 7 points and cause behavioral disorders so I can have MY beer.

You're making implicit accusations here. And that's judgement, whether you want to admit to it or not.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kalirush*
I do feel the need to point out, as a scientist, that just because a study says so doesn't make it true. There's an awful lot of questionable science being done in the world, much of it in peer-reviewed journals. Storm Bride's questions are very relevant.

Secondly, your first link doesn't match the description of the study that you have next to it.

Thirdly, none of your links pertain to women drinking less that two drinks a day. Two drinks a day (14/week) is a lot more than the 3-4/week that most people here seem to be talking about as reasonable.

You may prefer to err on the side of caution (and I'm with you- but then, I've never been a drinker), but it doesn't mean that others are being irresponsible. And please stop invoking science as though it were Truth.

Julia

Sorry about the link... will double check it later and get the correct one, I have to get online atm, we are havign guests over tonight... will have to post tonight or tomorrow.

As far as science not being truth, what other means should we use for finding out medical facts and data? Rely on "intuition"? The research was conducted by reputable Universities that do other alcohol related medical studies. IMO a University study is highly reliable.

It's easy to say well, just because it's a research study, I don't believe it. Well then, what DO you accept as proof? And why risk drinking if there is that strong possibilyt that there can be fetal harm? WHY WHY WHY??? Why is it SOOO important to drink while you are pregnant?







:


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## beachcomber (May 11, 2005)

Quote:

IMO a University study is highly reliable.
I work for a university. I would have to disagree with this statement. Not all universities are equally reliable. Not all universities are subject to the same levels and methods of scrutiny. Here in Canada many research-based institutions are under increasing pressure to obtain privately sourced funding for research projects, which means going with industry sources like petroleum companies, pharmaceutical companies and other "invested" sources. This adds an automatic bias that is difficult to counter. When your funder is a private company and they've got a proprietary interest in the outcome of your project, then you as a scientist are under incredible pressure to produce the results they want instead of to just do the best science possible.

Quote:

Why is it SOOO important to drink while you are pregnant?
Wow. Talk about conflating the argument.

That's not what people are saying. What they're saying is that they should have the right to make an informed decision FOR THEMSELVES. What you're advocating is literally telling women what to do. Dictating to them. As if women don't have enough common sense to be able to make a logical decision if presented with a variety of evidence. THAT is what I'm taking issue with here.


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## kalirush (Jun 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
As far as science not being truth, what other means should we use for finding out medical facts and data? Rely on "intuition"? The research was conducted by reputable Universities that do other alcohol related medical studies. IMO a University study is highly reliable.

I've seen some godawful stupid science come out of Universities. Not to mention, people just make mistakes sometimes. I like to actually read the published paper, where possible, and *also* wait for the results to be replicated.

One study means nothing more than "hey, here's an avenue for possibly interesting research. Somebody follow me up and replicate me". I mean, it might have been a fluke cause by a million factors. Hell, the researchers might have just made it up. I've seen it happen. At reputable universities.

I'm not advocating ignoring scientific studies, by the way. Not even close. I'm just saying, studies can be flawed and wrong. They should be evaluated the way you evaluate any information source, and not just taken at face value because that's what someone else says the paper says. Or even because that's what the authors say the paper says.

Quote:

It's easy to say well, just because it's a research study, I don't believe it. Well then, what DO you accept as proof? And why risk drinking if there is that strong possibilyt that there can be fetal harm? WHY WHY WHY??? Why is it SOOO important to drink while you are pregnant?







:
Okay, strong possibility. It's your judgement that these studies constitute a strong possibility of fetal harm, so you choose to abstain completely. I think I would make the same choice (as I said, I never drink, so I didn't make that choice, really), but I can understand why others might not see it as a strong possibility based on historical information and the evidence you've presented. Just saying.

Julia


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## Plady (Nov 20, 2001)

Okay time for everyone to take a nice deep breath and go do something else.

I'm sure the OP has gotten what she came for (and then some). This is practically turning into one of those W&P threads that used to get shut down all the time.

Peace.


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## SoggyGranolaMomma (Feb 28, 2005)

I am pregnant with my fifth baby and have had wine/beer to varying degrees with all pregnancies. Every baby has been completely fine with no delay in any areas.









My OB has given me her blessing to consume one glass of wine/beer a day during my second and third trimesters. I have had a few glasses of wine or beer and sips of "harder" stuff but never on a regular or consistent basis.

I think FAS is more readily linked to episodes of heavy "binge" drinking than moderate consumption. To each their own.


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## SoggyGranolaMomma (Feb 28, 2005)

Oh and for the record, I place more value on anecdotal evidence combined with science than science alone. Science is flawed as are studies based on who is doing the funding (a study funded by a formula company would hardly be prudent to discover that formula might actually be *harmful* to infants. Everybody needs a paycheck, ya know?







) and who gains to benefit from those results.

The other thing to consider is that theorists/scientist/medical staff need to exercise great caution when saying certain behaviors are ok during pregnancy. It is our nature as humans to "overdue" most everything, so if one study says one drink a day is fine, there is bound to be that mom-to-be who thinks therefore 2 drinks can't be "that much more worse" than one and so the cycle of abuse begins.

I know myself, I know my limits. I know what I feel comfortable with based on my own research but I understand that not all women have the same level of discipline I have. Again, to each their own.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

In a very nonjudgemental way, I would like to point out that there was a study that found that individuals tend to believe studies that support their point of view. So really, we could argue science all day, but there are as many studies under the sun as hungry researchers, so I have no doubt that we will certainly not find the definitive answers to our questions here today. I can find the link if anyone is interested in my scientific POV that proves me right.

Ever notice how women's magazines will have one study saying one thing; and then the next month quote a study that says the opposite. It's to make you crazy and vulnerable to expensive electronic toys for your fetus.







Mothering is fairly consistent because we like to find the studies that support our super-cool parenting, because we know all the other studies are wack anyhow.







There was just a study out today from England that purports to prove all those cosleepers are just hoping to kill their babies, proving great-grandma right as I'm sure we'll hear next time we see her, but I don't believe it for a minute.

I think I'll go have a half-glass of wine and some unpasteurized cheese RIGHT NOW, you girls have made me so darn thirsty!

And the bottom line - everyone here cares so much about mama and baby alike that they took the time to find studies to show it. At least you're thinking about it and debating it instead of just doing what the Today Show hosts and Redbook said to do this week. Also good. America and Europe are very different, and I love it. My European friends think I'm crazy for not feeling like a drink one night; and my US friends think I'm crazy for wanting one another night; and my Muslim friends think it's gross to drink ever! And boy, do they all have studies to back them up. There's just no pleasing anyone.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SoggyGranolaMomma*
The other thing to consider is that theorists/scientist/medical staff need to exercise great caution when saying certain behaviors are ok during pregnancy. It is our nature as humans to "overdue" most everything, so if one study says one drink a day is fine, there is bound to be that mom-to-be who thinks therefore 2 drinks can't be "that much more worse" than one and so the cycle of abuse begins.

I've also seen this work in reverse, though. I've known people - be it pregnant women with alcohol, teens with drugs, or whatever - who look at it from the other side. It's kind of a "well, they say we can't have even a single drink, and that's crazy because mom/aunt/friend/cousin drank sometimes when she was pregnant with me/cousin/niece/nephew and he/she turned out just fine. They don't know what they're talking about and I'll drink as much as I want." I've seen it happen with alcohol and drugs.

It's a bit like telling a child not to grab glasses off the table because "you'll break it and hurt yourself". When that doesn't happen, they think you don't know what you're talking about.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

Well, that is the choice that an adult makes. This is the argument "I was formula-fed and I turned out fine". Leading by example seems to be the best option on all of this stuff.
Fundamentally, there is no way that there ever going to be a ethical, moral and effective study done on what any given substance, from apples to thalidomide, does to a foetus. In order to find out how much is too much, we are going to have to damage several hundred infants- and this isn't OK with me. Furthermore, all the studies I've seen quoted HAVE been anecdotal in nature- how big is a glass of wine? A pub measure is one unit, but your average large household glass holds 1.5. Was that shot of vodka poured in a pub or at home? Was it measured? What with? Was the pint of beer served in an oversized glass to allow for the head, or not? All of these things render the studies ambiguous, at best- I'd argue, potentially worthless.

Mrs Moe, I think you're leaping to assumptions here. I am recognising that you and I have different cultural values, and very different clinical standards of care- probably the least controversial I can find is that vaginal exams and pap smears are not uncommon during pregnancy in the US model of antenatal care. Over here, they're unheard of. Not to say that one way is better than the other, just different. We can argue until the cows come home about what an "occasional" drink is, but it won't achieve anything because of the stamp our local cultures have left on us. The problem is, the internet is a global culture and the way you express your views and assumptions can be quite offensive. Please think.


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

To the OP, what she is drinking seems like more than I'd drink and be comfortable with.
There are a lot of "old wive's tales" that have been passed down and she could be listening to those. My dh's grandmother who was a nurse advised me to drink beer at the end of my pregnancy and during nursing (to make good milk).

I personally feel comfortable with an occasional drink. I'm not all that into alcohol though so its not hard for me to be moderate.

For some odd reason though, especially in the first trimester, I've craved wine. Normally its something I might have on occasion (2-3 times a year) but I really, really craved it for a while. I tried to satiate the desire instead with grape juice.


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
I am inclined to think that someone who is drinking two drinks _every_ day is probably not the epitome of a mom looking out for her unborn infant's welfare - that doesn't mean it was necessarily the alcohol itself that caused the 7 point drop.

Exactly


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flapjack*
Please think.

I have thought. And I think it's wrong to drink while you are pregnant on a regular basis because.... your fetus drinks, too! I also stated many times in this thread that drinking on occasion was NOT the issue, but rather, drinking REGULAR basis.

It's a mute point posting in this thread, I feel rather frustrated at this point, and it's just not worth posting anymore if it is causing me distress.


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## Jenne (May 21, 2004)

I'm not going to enter this debate on either side because I haven't btdt yet, I agree that their will be studies for either side, history of drinking BUT I have been a special ed teacher and I KNOW that kids with FAS are MUCH worse off in the long run than even babies born addicted to crack or meth. That says a lot for me.

Oh, hey, I had a thought. I wonder if any study has looked at the type of alcohol ingested to see if that makes a difference long term. I know the serving is a serving thing. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about "Night Train" which has formaldehide and a number of other "yummy" ingredients while "Bud" may not. That type of thing could really throw off a study right?

Jenne


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## tboroson (Nov 19, 2002)

Beachcomber has voiced my thoughts most eloquently, so I won't reiterate them

I do have one point to make, though. Mrs. Moe, have you noticed that you're posting on a board predominated by women (and men) who have, in many many ways, chosen to ignore "science" in favor of tradition? Let us enumerate the ways. Science tells us that we must vaccinate our children to keep them safe. Science tells us that vaccines hold no dangers, and that they certainly are not implicated in autism. Science tells us that circumcising our sons lowers their risk of AIDS and penile cancer. Science tells us that cosleeping is a high risk factor for SIDS. Science tells us we should never drink raw milk. Science tells us that there is no nutritional difference between organic foods and conventional foods. Science tells us we should give our children antibiotics for many simple infections (such as ear infections). Science tells us that homeopathics are bunk. Science tells us that ultrasounds are entirely safe and an accurate way to predict problems in a pregnancy.

Parents here have chosen to trust their instincts, using millenia of tradition and the practices of billions of people living in more traditional cultures to back up those instincts. And, honestly, one of those instincts for me was to drink a beer or glass of wine every once in a while when I was pregnant. Woman have drunk alcohol during pregnancy for millenia, in fact in many time periods and places they drank substantial amounts of it. And yet our world wasn't populated by village idiots. Somehow, Galileo managed to figure out that the earth rotated around the sun using primative instruments and mathematics, despite the fact that his mother would have drinken all of her water cut with ale or wine to kill bacteria during her pregnancy.

You know, seven IQ points really isn't very statistically significant, and many, many psychologists will tell you that we desperately need to stop focusing on that number. IQ tests are highly biased toward certain demographics. I've had that confirmed in classes about intelligence that I took as part of my *gifted* education program in high school, by my former roommate who was working on a PhD in developmental psyche (and administered a couple different IQ tests to me as part of a study,) and by my own experience taking a whole bunch of different IQ tests. Here are some things I remember from IQ tests: Identifying silhouettes (could it be that some people just don't have the life experience to identify Mozart?), arranging colored blocks or triangles to fit patterns on cards (an easy skill to practice, if a child had experience with manipulatives she'd have an advantage), vocabulary questions (rearranging letters to make a word - if a child doesn't know the word due to a language barrier, well, she'll never solve that problem; similarly, a child can't make analogies with words in a language with which she's shaky). Could it be that women who are more likely to drink a bit during pregnancy are of a culture that's on the short end of that bias stick? Very possible...

So, while I personally would be concerned about someone who's drinking heavily (and, as PPs have mentioned, your study about women drinking an average of two drinks every night is heavy,) I personally do *not* worry about an occasional beer with a good meal out at a restaurant, or a glass of champagne at a wedding, or a glass of wine at the end of a really stressful week. Like not vaxing or feeding my kids raw milk, that makes sense to me and your "science" does not.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tboroson*
Here are some things I remember from IQ tests: Identifying silhouettes... arranging colored blocks or triangles to fit patterns on cards (an easy skill to practice, if a child had experience with manipulatives she'd have an advantage)...

My husband is way smarter than me (and I've tested above 150 on every IQ test I've ever taken), but he can't do the kind of thing you mention here _at all_ - not because of his IQ, but because he has a very rare and very severe form of colour blindness. There are just so many factors that affect a person's performance on those tests.


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## Katt2005 (Apr 22, 2005)

Science is theory in motion. Its always changing. There are SOOOO many factors in everything that you will never get 1 right answer. And just to add, those studies said 2 per day THROUGH OUT the pg. Of course drinking in the 1st trimester is going to up your risks of problems, way more than in your 3 trimester. I should say though 2 a day, everyday is a lot to be considered moderate drinking for anyone, pg or not. And as a pp mentioned, they should do studies on the different Types of alcohol, and the condition of health the mothers body was in during pg. Like I said, all to many factors to have 1 right answer. Trust your own judgement. And personally, once I reach what *I* feel is safe (in my own pg). a certain amount of weeks (32 for me) I will then have a beer or a glass of wine and relax in a bubble bath


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## katallen (Jan 4, 2005)

I think it is better not to take chances, especially in the first trimester when the baby is developing. I cut out all caffeine and medicine and didn't even consider drinking when I was pg because I didn't want to risk the problems that can come along with those activities, this was extreme, but she was my one and only so I wanted to be careful. Plus it was only 8 1/2 months and knowing that I could always go back to my coffee after her birth helped me stay strong. I am sure that many people drink and have no problem, and research may be wrong, but when you drink it slows down your mind so I think that it is likely that it does have negative affects on the baby and their developing mind.


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## MommyofPunkiePie (Mar 24, 2005)

I don't know if it has been mentioned yet, as I just scanned the posts, but what about all those Mothers who didn't know they were pregnant yet and drank alcohol? I know that two weeks before I found out I was pregnant, I went out to dinner with my family, had some wine with dinner, went to a bar and had some vodka drinks and some shots. About four hours after I got home, I puked and puked and puked--till four the next day! I felt so awful when I found out about the pregnancy and thought for sure I'd screwed up. Well, DD was eight pounds, one ounce at birth and she is developing ahead of *schedule* so thankfully that first trimester binge didn't harm her at all.


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## annieboobags (Apr 13, 2005)

think of our ancestors: they drank beer or wine because their water just wasn't potable, and they were capable of wonderful works of art and literature, so obviously not everyone was FAS.
i had a drink or two a week while pregant and my kiddo is just fine. i think it would have been worse for her health if i had been a big ol stress ball. i do yoga and swim and those sorts of relaxation forms, but there's nothing like one glass of good ol red wine to "take the edge off".


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## ANGELMAMA (Jul 15, 2005)

I must say that drinking a glass of wine or small glass of beer is far from selfish and far from risky in the later trimesters. If it helps a woman to relax and let her aching pregnant muscles and overactive motherly mind have a bit of help in letting go, then drink on all responsible educated mothers who can tell the difference between 1 drink and 12. I think most of us can right? I should hope so. Mrsmoe I'm curious if you would rather chose a hit of marijauna or the anti- nausea medication your doctor would prescribe for your vomiting? I think I can probably guess. Maybe you are taking all these university studies to the literal extream and living in fear.
And Yes, instinct is a great way for a mother to make choices for her body especially since a pregnant woman and mother is an extremely instinctual being. Assuming she is mentally healthy she will know what is right for her own best health and therefore her unborn childs health as well. It is all too often that doctors disreagard a womans natural abilty to sence her own body and they (most doctors) live in a world of avoiding lawsuits and liabilty. Unfortunately I would trust the advice of many "unqualified" individuals before many medical proffessionals, but that is the difference between you and I.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ANGELMAMA*
Mrsmoe I'm curious if you would rather chose a hit of marijauna or the anti- nausea medication your doctor would prescribe for your vomiting? I think I can probably guess.


Guess? So you would pressume to know what I would do, and your presumption is likely incorrect. I take nothing for nausea, and I had a great deal of it in both pregnancies.

I wouldn't give my baby booze after birth and I wouldnt' give my baby booze while in the womb, it's that simple.


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## Arora The Explorer (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
I would give my baby booze after borth and I wouldnt' give my baby booze while in the womb, it's that simple.

Everyone else is quoting MrsMoe, I feel like I want to band wagon, too. Woooo-weeee this is fun!!!









Can we agree that we're all just making the best decisions that we know how?


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## darkpear (Jul 22, 2003)

I'd just like to note that beer is not 'booze.' 'Booze' typically refers to liquor, ie distilled (rather than simply fermented) alcohol; strong drink.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

All alcoholic beverages have the same amount of alcohol.

One beer = one shot of vodka = one glass of wine.

Main Entry: booze
Function: noun
1. An alcoholic beverage


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

The truth: I drank though my pregnancy, never more than a single serving every few days, and DS is perfect. All trimesters. I'd challenge anybody to find anything wrong with the kiddo.

I'd stay off you neighbor's back; this "not even a drop" orthodoxy has more of a moral tone to it than a real medical one.


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

wow...this thread reminds me of one I started a while back when i was pregnant and decided to have a glass of champagne on New Year's. Very heated topic then and now.

I agree with Pamamidwife that this whole "all or nothing, no alcohol is safe" stuff we are told basically implies that women are idiots and aren't capable of common sense. I had a very occassional glass of wine throughout my pregnancy and I don't feel like a "bad" mother for not "T-totalling it" and "just saying no."

I very much believe in science, but often times studies are flawed or biased- I have just finished taking advanced courses on research design and now I read over all the "studies" I come across with a fine-tooth comb and I find a disturbing amount of studies from major universities that have classic flaws in design. If a study is poorly designed, it cannot be valid or reliable. Often times things like the effects of an occasional drink on a fetus are not studied in depth because these effects are not likely to be statistically significant and the researchers know that.

I personally would not feel comfortable drinking as much as the woman in question in the op, but it's her choice- it certainly doesn't seem like totally over-the-top binge drinking to me...

to me this whole topic is just fraught with judgement and everyone needs to just take a step back and take a deep breath...


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

I remember the champagne thread! :LOL

What a trainwreck that was. Back then, I was lurking in comfortable anonymity, but I was on your side, Lovechild!


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

Thanks eightyferrettoes!







That thread was even more heated than this one- it was totally ridiculous- all of a sudden I was a bad immature mom for having one glass of champagne on New Year's :LOL the same tone of judgement is creeping through this thread.


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

Just delurking from this thread, but I remember the champagne thread too.What a nightmare. For some reason, this issue fascinates me. I've made up my mind, and I'm not likely to change it anytime soon, but I keep watching anyway. And my opinion isn't even all that strong! I don't think it's bad to have a moderate amount of alcohol, though, as a general rule, I'm avoiding it for this pregnancy. Lovechild, if you're a bad mom, then so am I. I had half a glass of wine on vacation last month. *shock!*


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveChild421*
Thanks eightyferrettoes!







That thread was even more heated than this one- it was totally ridiculous- all of a sudden I was a bad immature mom for having one glass of champagne on New Year's :LOL the same tone of judgement is creeping through this thread.

I don't think so. Nobody here said anything about about a single drink once in a while. The issue is regular drinking. I'm sorry if I made you feel like I thought bad of anyone for having a glass of champange on New Years or another holiday.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MerryOne*
I must give my personal view, I drank with my son until he was 4 months, (not heavy but enough that I at 17 questioned my doc who told me not to worry, I had not drank enough to hurt my child) I did not know I was preg, tested negative and had a period 2 of the months, he was born healthy and normal, and tho dyslexic test above normal level on IQ test.
I find nothing wrong with a drink for a special occasion or a glass of wine here or there while pregnant, I worry if the mother is drinking more than a glass at a sitting, everyday along those lines.
Plus I find that beer makers market the non alki lines the very much the SAME bottles etc as the ones with alki in them, so I'd look to see if she was drinking non alcoholic beer first before commenting, because she might not be having alcohol at all









Why are you on MDC?
the very nature of this site is built on listening to your intuition, medical facts and research would say that we are all stupid for home birthing with no meds, breast feeding past 6 months and on demand, not vac-ing, slinging and having attached children, and gasp co sleeping which is in their view worse of all for some, we are going to roll over on on kids in the night.

So I do not belong on MDC because I am an atheist and do not believe in intuition? Wow.


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:

Originally posted by *MrsMoe*
I don't think so. Nobody here said anything about about a single drink once in a while. The issue is regular drinking. I'm sorry if I made you feel like I thought bad of anyone for having a glass of champange on New Years or another holiday.
no you didn't make me feel bad!







I was just commenting on how the negative vibes in this thread remind me sooooo much of that thread (which was worse believe me







)


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## Yummymummy74 (Jun 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveChild421*
no you didn't make me feel bad!







I was just commenting on how the negative vibes in this thread remind me sooooo much of that thread (which was worse believe me







)

I remember that thread.. :LOL I posted on it about Jack Newmans articles.. which to me provided some pretty fascinating evidence about the whole blood alcohol level thing..


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## beachcomber (May 11, 2005)

Would you be able to post a link to those articles? I'm really interested in reading them...


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## beachcomber (May 11, 2005)

I'm an athiest and I believe in intuition. I don't think intuition has any connection at all to faith or spirituality. To me, it's simply a combination of learned experience, common sense and instinct. Granted, intuition is not necessarily "rational" but that's part of it's value, in my experience. If humans didn't possess intuition and instinct, we would never have made it out of the Stone Age.

The Dictionary.com and Merriam-Webster definitions of intuition makes no mention of faith, spirituality, religion or the supernatural.

Dictionary.com:
1.
1. The act or faculty of knowing or sensing without the use of rational processes; immediate cognition. See Synonyms at reason.
2. Knowledge gained by the use of this faculty; a perceptive insight.
2. A sense of something not evident or deducible; an impression.
Merriam-Webster:
1 : quick and ready insight
2 a : immediate apprehension or cognition b : knowledge or conviction gained by intuition c : the power or faculty of attaining to direct knowledge or cognition without evident rational thought and inference

That said, I don't think you need to believe in the validity of intuition to post here. All you need is to love your children and want what's best for them. There are hundreds of different perspectives from very devoutly christian to athiest, from crunchy granola to liberal to conservative. 99% of the time, we can coexist quite peacefully.


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## vegetalien (May 28, 2005)

I think actually that everybody in this discussion actually agrees, we are all on the same page that drinking _regularly_ is harmful. and mrsmoe has said a few times that on occasion is fine.

as for being judgmental, i agree that mrsmoe is going overboard a bit, but don't we all judge people on a day-to-day basis? for ex, if you saw a parent hit their child in public, what's the first thought that would go into your head? probably a judgement. certainly we're not always correct but i do think it's normal to make inferences about people when you observe them doing something that hits a nerve. personally, if i saw my pregnant neighbour drinking two beers on 4 different occasions, it would raise my eyebrows some.

i totally agree that it's unwise to blindly believe every "scientific" study one reads. but people keep using attachment parening as an example to counter science, and, is it just me or are there a LOT of reputable scientific studies that support many of attachment parenting's characteristics (breastfeeding, gentle discipline, midwifery, even cosleeping now, etc). fact is you can almost always find "reputable" sources to defend either sides of the fence of almost any topic.

my 2 cents on the original topic. i do hear what mrs.moe is saying about why take the chance. it's true that the chances are pretty good that moderate drinking won't harm the fetus, but i doubt it's _good_ for it. personally i have never felt a desire for a drink strong enough to take that chance, but that's just me. i wouldn't condone a pregnant person for having a glass of wine on a special occasion. it's true that it's none of our business but i agree with the poster who said that to some extent (that's where the fine line is tricky) if a baby or child is at a potential risk of mistreatment, it's nice when a community takes responsibility for being concerned.

but, yeah, this discussion isn't really going anywhere because mrsmoe keeps talking about excessive drinking when everybody else is talking moderate. i think we all agree on that matter.

just my two cents!


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

how can anyone even think one drink is fine?? one drink may feel nice to us but the baby inside who doesn't have tolerence to alcohol is sick, one drink is enough to make a baby feel drunk. why risk it??? why stop at an occasional drink, how about an occasional cigarrette, or an occasional joint??


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MerryOne*
What does what I said have to do with your lack of religion?
My statement applies only to your apparent lack of trust in a woman to know what is best for her, which last time I checked was a basic principal of attached parenting, using your intuition instead of a doctor's to know what is best for you and your child.
Just to put this into context, my cousin is dating a medical student who aims to become an ob/gyn this young man likes to say that c/s births are the safest and easiest way to give birth, I'm sure he can find and spill off the top of his head these "facts", and he has told my cousin many times that she is "too small" to birth a child vaginally which is rarely the truth, but he is biased.
MOST doctors are also biased, to interventions and the like and when they write papers and so on they lean towards their version of truth, which is then printed as studies and given as much media air time as possible.
You are saying that my intuition which lead me to co sleep, breast feed, cloth diaper and try to be as gentle a parent as I could be living in a country (caribbean) where the formula companies have flooded the market with their version of truth and next to no one cloth diapers or bfed after leaving the hospital is faulty/wrong/irresponsible just does not make sense
It is not rude for you to say what lead many of us to this life style is non logical???
I question if you can respect many of us who come here lead by that intution that you so carelessly dismiss.

Unless you want to apologize to me for your unkind comment, I won't respond to you.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpea333*
how can anyone even think one drink is fine?? one drink may feel nice to us but the baby inside who doesn't have tolerence to alcohol is sick, one drink is enough to make a baby feel drunk. why risk it???

Why risk what, exactly?

MrsMoe: You've asked several times why anybody would risk drinking while pregnant. In the case of occasional drinkers, the reasons are varied - from the time I used a drink as an aid to sleep, to someone I knew having a single glass of champagne at her best friend's wedding, because she wanted to be involved in teh toasts.

In the case of regular/heavy drinkers, it's a whole different matter. Many of these people have serious problems with alcohol, and part of the problem is that they cope (badly) with life through denial. When someone has their entire view of life invested in denying that they drink too much, denying that it has any negative effect, denying _everything_ about their drinking...drinking while pregnant is a fairly natural consequence of the mindset.


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## beachcomber (May 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpea333*
how can anyone even think one drink is fine?? one drink may feel nice to us but the baby inside who doesn't have tolerence to alcohol is sick, one drink is enough to make a baby feel drunk. why risk it??? why stop at an occasional drink, how about an occasional cigarrette, or an occasional joint??

Is this anecdotal or do you have anything concrete to back that up?
Seriously.

eta:

I don't mean to sound bitchy, but this point's already been made (and countered using cultural differences, history, and a refutation of the validity and TRUTH of scientific studies, etc.) Reiterating the "one drink is deadly" perspective really just seems like a judgement. Especially given the "How can anyone even think one drink is fine??" opener.

Just my opinion.


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

i didn't mean that one drink would cause death, but would probably make a baby feel ill and drunk, just like i get a buzz off of one drink im sure a baby would, just because it doesnt' make a baby retarded or die, do we still not care about the babies comfort in the womb?? maybe i just dont see the point, it's not that hard to refrain from drinking is it??


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## jstar (Jul 22, 2004)

the US is so uptight. we've been brainwashed to believe what works for the lowest common denominator: NO alcohol during pregnancy

leave it to the mother to decide what she feels is appropriate and safe. we're educated women. we can decide for ourselves.

but you know educating the masses with the zero tolerance idea to make it socially unacceptable to drink in public during pregnancy probably has saved a ton of babies from fetal alcohol syndrome. and that's a good thing

but you still have to respect the right of women to decide what is appropriate for their lives in light of all the information that is out there.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpea333*
i didn't mean that one drink would cause death, but would probably make a baby feel ill and drunk, just like i get a buzz off of one drink im sure a baby would, just because it doesnt' make a baby retarded or die, do we still not care about the babies comfort in the womb?? maybe i just dont see the point, it's not that hard to refrain from drinking is it??

Those are my personal feelings also. While it isn't the same as drinking on a regular occasion and is highly unlikely to cause any fetal harm, it is something I would not personally do.


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## beachcomber (May 11, 2005)

Okay. There's something fundamental that I don't understand here ...

Why is it so hard to accept that sometimes people are going to do things you personally dislike? I mean this is just a basic fact of life. It happens all the time.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beachcomber*
Okay. There's something fundamental that I don't understand here ...

Why is it so hard to accept that sometimes people are going to do things you personally dislike? I mean this is just a basic fact of life. It happens all the time.

Hard to accept for whom? Who are you directing this statement at?

I suppose you could say that there are many things in life that are "hard to accept" - or in other words things that upset me- on a personal basis. What are thigns that bother me? Child abuse, global starvation and poverty, spousal abuse, spanking, racisim, circimcision, and so on. But these are my personal feelings, and like you and everyone here, we all have different opinions as to what is morally right and wrong. Women drinking on a *regular basis or in exces*s during pregnancy is something that disturbs me personally because of dangers to the fetus.

I don't "judge" women who drink on a *regular basis or in excess*during pregnancy because there is a reason they must be doing so, which I feel stems from them either not being educated to facts and possible dangers to their fetus or because they may have issues with alcohol dependancy in which case I would feel for the mother. It doesn't disturb me however if a woman has a single drink on a special occasion because I don't see any long term damage is possible to her fetus.

Do you plan on having a natural childbirth without pain medications? Why? Do you plan on breastfeeding? Why? Would you circumcise your son? Why or why not?

Mothers should make choices depending on what is best for baby, not what is best for mommy.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
Mothers should make choices depending on what is best for baby, not what is best for mommy.

But to what extent? I consider a drink a day a perfectly reasonable limit for a pregnant woman. That's "regular" by anybody's definition. We make all kinds of choices during pregnancy that could potentially harm the babes.

Eating processed, pesticide-laden foods, walking through carbon monoxide car fumes, driving, taking medicine, going to noisy environments, eating sushi... the list goes on. Do pregnant women have to stay in a padded, air-conditioned room?

The "no alcohol during pregnancy" has very little controlled research to back it up, and I think that restricting pregnant women is quite condescending. It reeks of enforced morality, not science.

JMHO.


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

i dont understand why that is reasonable, sure it may not do long term damage. but how do you think a baby feels in the womb, when exposed to alcohol, you may not feel the buzz but the baby does. the baby can't stop that alcohol from going into their bodies, it's not just about fas!! you have no idea what the baby feels like after they've had a beer!!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jstar*
but you know educating the masses with the zero tolerance idea to make it socially unacceptable to drink in public during pregnancy probably has saved a ton of babies from fetal alcohol syndrome. and that's a good thing

I honestly doubt that it's made that big a difference. I could be wrong, but my experience with alcoholics and other problem drinkers (more of it than I'd like) leads me to suspect that most of them have continued their drinking without paying any attention to the risks of FAS and FAE. I know four kids with obvious FAS, all of whom were conceived and born after the publicity about drinking during pregnancy started.

Strangers feeling free to jump down some woman's throat because they see her in a bar having a drink when she's obviously pregnant does _nothing_ to address pregnant women with drinking problems who are quite likely to be hiding their drinking in the first place. Plus, I think it's been fairly well documented that the worst effects of alcohol are during the first trimester, when it's perfectly socially acceptable to drink - because nobody knows a woman is pregnant if she doesn't choose to tell them.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpea333*
you have no idea what the baby feels like after they've had a beer!!

I also have no idea how an unborn kiddo feels like after I've had sex; and I really don't plan to quit doing that during a pregnancy, either.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Oh, and ITA with Storm Bride.

I'm told that the great State of Alaska has the HIGHEST rate of FAS in the nation, and one of the highest in the world.

It's not for lack of communicating this "not even a drop" idea, either. Every third TV and radio commercial is from the FAS Task Force. As far as I know, it has thus far had zero impact on the alcohol damage rate.

All it really does is stigmatize pregnant women a little more. Alcoholics don't respond well to this kind of campaigning.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
I also have no idea how an unborn kiddo feels like after I've had sex; and I really don't plan to quit doing that during a pregnancy, either.


The baby is protected in the womb... sex would simply "rock the baby" so this is not logical reasoning.


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## hottmama (Dec 27, 2004)

I've been following this thread and wanted to say that I agree with those who argue for a common sense approach to alcohol during pregnancy. I don't think that it's a good idea to drink a lot (more than 2 drinks) at a time, or to drink at all in the first trimester (I don't even take tylenol in the first trimester), but I do think that after 14 weeks, a drink or two on occasion is really nothing to worry about.
I like it when I'm buzzed; it feels good. I'm sure my fetus probably agrees, to the extent that a 17 week fetus can think. On what planet does a buzz hurt?! Not that I get drunk after 1 drink, but still.
I had my first drink since before TTC a week ago- a strawberry daquiri, light on the rum. It was delicious and I have no guilt. I'll probably drink a drink once every week or so during the rest of the pregnancy.
I think that zero tolerance messages are never any good- be them aimed at teenagers or pregnant women.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hottmama*
I like it when I'm buzzed; it feels good. I'm sure my fetus probably agrees, to the extent that a 17 week fetus can think.

So is it OK to let your 3 year old have a drink? Not that I think there is phsyical harm to the fetus after a single drink... I think the above reasoning is... well... unusual.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

I see nothing wrong with letting a little kid have a couple of sips of whatever you're drinking. My Okie ******* family did it all the time. :LOL

Most of the time, the taste isn't even really appealing to them. But in the "pregnancy drinking" debate, there's no way to separate the grown woman from the kiddo. She cannot be expected to forfeit every adult privilege she has for months on end.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
She cannot be expected to forfeit every adult privilege she has for months on end.

Why? _(Maybe she shouldnt' be expected to be straddled to breastfeeding for 12 months or more, either.)_


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
Why? _(Maybe she shouldnt' be expected to be straddled to breastfeeding for 12 months or more, either.)_

Nope, she sure doesn't have to. I'm the fattest BF supporter this side of the Al-Can border, but I don't think a mama HAS to do that, either.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

about the first trimester being so bad for alcohol consumption.

I drank right through two of my 1st trimesters because I didn't think I was pregnant I'd tested negative both times. (One was the Millenium too - and boy, that champagne was good.







) Even my OB laughed at my concern about it when I found I was pregnant with dd#1. As for the m/w I used for my other prgnancies - she told me a couple of times to go home and have a glass of wine after an appt.







This would be very normal in the UK.

As for IQ.........hmmm. I guess that there must be a much lower IQ level in the UK than in the USA. Does anyone have a scientific study to prove this? :LOL

None of my kids seem to be lacking in the IQ department, in spite of me drinking in the first trimester. If they did have 7 extra IQ points I'd worry about where they'd put them.









Sometimes we need to lighten up and appreciate that our 'truth' may not be someone else's truth.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
Nope, she sure doesn't have to. I'm the fattest BF supporter this side of the Al-Can border, but I don't think a mama HAS to do that, either.

Doesn't make it right. Spanking is also an easy fast way to correct a child... but that doesn't make spanking right either. The easiest way out isn't always what is best for the child.


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## eightyferrettoes (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
Doesn't make it right. Spanking is also an easy fast way to correct a child... but that doesn't make spanking right either. The easiest way out isn't always what is best for the child.

That's pretty much what I'm getting at; there are plenty of things in the world of childrearing that are far more damaging than having a nightcap during pregnancy, and they are fairly unstigmatized. Spanking, circumcision, formula feeding, et cetera. I'd add yelling, too.

People might say, "it's not for me" but few feel the need to get involved.

But the "drinking during pregnancy" thing isn't even really about damaged babies-- it's about heaping moral condemnation on pregnant women who don't really care for the teetoling orthodoxy. As someone else pointed out, the first trimester is the "worst" in terms of potential damage, but it's not till you start showing that random strangers glare at you in the liquor store.

It's interesting that our society has a real problem with acknowleging that pregnant women are more than a sum of their unborn babies' parts. They are still grown women, who need to receive accurate information, and then be left to make up their own minds.


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## azyre (Oct 10, 2003)

Wow, this thread brough up a lot of memories for me. I was overseas when i was first pregnant, and on a big trip of a life time to Paris and London. So I drank plenty and ate plenty of listeria "danger" foods. At about 3 or 4 weeks pregnant I got an aversion to alcohol and diet coke that lasted my pregnancy but I had been really living large in the period before.

I spent a lot of time researching about what potential damage I had caused. I also spent a lot of time trying to find out WHY I couldn't use my spa. I'd read websites that said *one* drink can cause FAS!! The breadth of opinion was staggering. I also never found out why I shouldn't use the spa and what would happen if I was too hot for too long for her. I might be better at researching now.

Anyway, it wasn't until she was born and she looked perfect and I felt relief that I realised I was hanging on to a fear that she'd been damaged. I had a nagging feeling all pregnancy that I'd done something wrong.

Next pregnancy I will drink in moderation as I desire.


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

quote hottmama: I like it when I'm buzzed; it feels good. I'm sure my fetus probably agrees, to the extent that a 17 week fetus can think. On what planet does a buzz hurt?! Not that I get drunk after 1 drink, but still.

and your in the same weight category as your baby??


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## hottmama (Dec 27, 2004)

Sweetpea- it's been shown that the fetus has a lower BAC than the mom. I don't see what weight has to do with anything.

And to whoever asked if i would give my 3 yr. old a drink- yes, probably- a small one, of course. As a kid I was always so excited to have some champagne on New Year's Eve at midnight. I never got drunk or anything, we're talking a very small drink. I don't see any harm in that sort of thing. I think Prohibition ended a long time ago and people need to quit thinking alcohol is the drink of the devil.

My point about how I like to be buzzed seemed a pretty obvious response to the idea that we should worry about the comfort of the fetus, and that a buzz would make them uncomfortable. That seems outrageous to me.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eightyferrettoes*
I remember the champagne thread!

Yea, I do as well. If anyone can find it, I'd like to see it again just to compare the two threads.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hottmama*
And to whoever asked if i would give my 3 yr. old a drink- yes, probably- a small one, of course. As a kid I was always so excited to have some champagne on New Year's Eve at midnight.

I don't think I'd deliberately give a 3-year-old a drink - but maybe, if we're talking something like a small sip of champagne on New Year's Eve.

I do know that my 2-year-old got an "empty" beer can off the table a couple of months ago, and had drained the drops before we got it back...maybe a 1/2 tsp. I wish she hadn't, but I'm really not worried about it. And, on those occasions in this pregnancy when I have had a drink (eg. the night I failed my road test), I haven't noticed any changes in the baby - no more or less active than normal or anything like that.


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## sweetpea333 (Jul 2, 2005)

a buzz is comfortable for you yes but you know what's goin on, . ive read that a baby in the womb would indefinitely feel dizzy and sick from a drink or two.


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## beachcomber (May 11, 2005)

(edited)

I just realized that I'm comfortable with my perspective on this. I don't need to either argue it or justify it to anyone.


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## Banrigh (Sep 14, 2006)

I am from Britain, I live in Germany with my American husband. We are six months pregnant and if I have so much as a white wine spritzer my husband freaks out. He thinks that I am abusing our child. Where I come from beer and wine are almost like having a coke. I know many people who drank throughout their pregnancy and wouldnt have just one drink of wine but a bottle. All their babies have been okay. I am no Doctor and can only take the advice of my American Doctor which is to have no alcohol, though the nurse that diagnosed my pregnancy at the American health clinic told me that I could have a glass of wine, they work next door to each other!
My advice - a little of what you like does you good!!!


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## Meg Murry. (Sep 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nonconformnmom*
Regardless, it is her body, her choice.

With all due respect, I strongly disagree. It is absolutely _not_ just _her_ body when she is pregnant.


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## Meg Murry. (Sep 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *andreac*
To call another person's choice selfish is rude.

Rude? Or _accurate_ ?

As a pp said, there is no compelling reason to drink. In previous centuries, it was necessary to drink because the e.coli content of the water was far more deadly than the alcohol. Now, that is not the case. The fact of the matter is that it has not been determined what amount of alcohol presents a danger for the simple reason that women's sizes and metabolisms vary; therefore, the safest option is not to do it at all. When your "choice" could result in the serious impairment of your child -- and the choice is not a necessary one, but one done only for your pleasure -- yes, it is absolutely selfish.

The definition of "rude" is not "I don't agree with you."


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## roisin84 (Sep 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Banrigh*
I am from Britain, I live in Germany with my American husband. We are six months pregnant and if I have so much as a white wine spritzer my husband freaks out. He thinks that I am abusing our child. Where I come from beer and wine are almost like having a coke. I know many people who drank throughout their pregnancy and wouldnt have just one drink of wine but a bottle. All their babies have been okay. I am no Doctor and can only take the advice of my American Doctor which is to have no alcohol, though the nurse that diagnosed my pregnancy at the American health clinic told me that I could have a glass of wine, they work next door to each other!
My advice - a little of what you like does you good!!!

I certainly wouldn't drink a whole bottle, but I see no problem with the occasional glass of wine especially later in pregnancy. Britain definitely has a more relaxed view of alcohol ime - an American friend of mine was shocked that it's perfectly normal and acceptable to take children to pubs here.


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## anothermama (Nov 11, 2003)

Just to chime in........

There was actually a big thread about this about two years ago!

As you can see, people are torn. However, I've seen studies presented from European countries in which a glass of wine every now and again is the norm, and there is no real difference in the FAS rates here or there.

To me that says that careful use of alcohol every now and again is probably fine.

I don't think we should go around telling women it's fine no matter what, of course you have to weigh risks and benefits. Having had very severe hypermesis in both my pregnancies, I can tell you that if a glass of wine would have helped, I would do it.


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## WinterBaby (Oct 24, 2002)

What a great thread to have ressurrected, lol. Generally speaking.. I don't drink during pregnancy. But, a few weeks ago I had bronchitis, and to calm the coughing and get off to sleep, there were a few nights I had a glass of wine before bed (which appalled my teenage step daughter who thought I should try nyquil instead, lol.) I was out of the first trimester, it seemed trivial and helped, so I felt comfortable with it. However, when my midwife asked what I had been taking for the bronchitis, the wine came to mind and I did NOT mention it to her because I didn't want to get embroiled in this same sort of debate, or feel defensive over what seemed like a reasonable choice to me at the time. Now, for all I know, she might think it perfectly reasonable too - but, she might decide if I acknowledeged one, I must be drinking 6, and every night, and I just wasn't willing to endure where that conversation could go. But.. it makes me think the climate surrounding this issue - the policing, the distrust of average women to make reasonable decisions in front of the evidence - is just unhealthy. Sure, there's no evidence even a single drink is safe, but there's no evidence it isn't, either. So I just wish we could be trusted not to be idiots, and I could feel free to be forthcoming without a fear of being taken to task over something both minor (on the scale of risk factors,) and personal by someone else.


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## ERSsmom (Dec 6, 2004)

Well said, Winterbaby!


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## ~~Mama2B~~ (Mar 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*

To me, listening to a "woman's intuition" is not logical, as I don't even buy into the idea of intuition. I buy into medical facts, data and research of top universities.

This is very offensive- especially in a community like this. There are a great many empowered women who believe that their intuitions have been ignored long enough. Its the reason we homebirth, UC, EBF, GD, etc. Even though we are told to do otherwise, we as mothers know what is safe, helpful, dangerous, etc. for our children.

This is most definately not an issue of religion.

I'm glad I don't believe as you do- I'd be prepping myself for a managed hospital birth, ultrasounds and an obgyn sticking proby cold things up my yoohoo.

Anyways, I know this has already been discussed, but it just seems off base at MDC.

Kristi


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## earthie_mama (Mar 27, 2006)

I didn't read any of the other replies so forgive me if I'm reiterating, but I LOVE beer, and I buy non-alcoholic beer so I can still enjoy the flavor during pregnancy. They look, smell and taste like alcoholic beer, but with .5% alcohol content, so the average onlooker wouldn't know the difference. I've had some strange looks from quite a few people


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roisin84*
Britain definitely has a more relaxed view of alcohol ime - an American friend of mine was shocked that it's perfectly normal and acceptable to take children to pubs here.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3121440.stm

I'm not sure that's totally positive.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

You know, I really don't think the campaign to educate women about the effects of drinking while pregnant was meant to stigmatize anyone. Maybe some people have interpreted it that way, but overall I think the intent was just what I said, to educate.

And I would argue that it has been pretty successful. No, it hasn't helped alcoholics stop drinking. But it has taught most women (without serious addictions to alcohol) that it may be unsafe to drink heavily while pregnant. And I would guess that most women are glad to know that. I am. I drink very occasionally while pg, too, but if, for example, I'd kept drinking at the rate I was when I got pg with my dd, I'd probably have a child w/FAS or FAE. Fortunately, long before I got in to see any health care professional, I knew to lay off the booze (and beer). So, I guess if people are a little overzealous about the whole thing sometimes, I think it's worth it.


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## jake's mom (Mar 28, 2006)

mmm...speaking of which...I think I'll go make myself a bailey's and milk...









sorry, just trying to keep it light







:


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## OldFashionedGirl (Mar 22, 2004)

How do you juxtapose these two comments/posts?:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpea333*
i dont understand why that is reasonable, sure it may not do long term damage. but how do you think a baby feels in the womb, when exposed to alcohol, you may not feel the buzz but the baby does. the baby can't stop that alcohol from going into their bodies, it's not just about fas!! *you have no idea what the baby feels like after they've had a beer!!*


Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetpea333*
a buzz is comfortable for you yes but you know what's goin on, . *ive read that a baby in the womb would indefinitely feel dizzy and sick from a drink or two.*

Furthermore, I think the comparison of having a drink while pregnant to giving a baby a bottle of beer is inaccurate at best. If I give my 6 month old a bottle of beer, her body ALONE is processing that alcohol. If I were to have a drink while preg, certainly the alcohol would be shared between our two bodies. Certainly there's some difference to be considered.

This whole thread is....something else. MrsMoe, the impression I get from your posts is that you feel even an occassional drink (say, 3-4/month) is tantamount to leaving a baby alone with a sharp knife. I understand your concern, but if you're striving to convert the rest of us to your viewpoint, perhaps you should check your sanctimonious tone at the door.

Additionally, I personally know of at least 3 doctors, (whose opinion you revere so greatly....in fact, beyond the common sense, intellegence, and yes, that dirty word, _intuition_ of the average woman ) who told the woman that an occassional drink posed no risk to the unborn child.

Not too long ago, I posted a thread (I think in my DDC, but no matter), about whether or not it was "okay" for me to have an occassional NA beer. Fortunately, the responses in that thread were supportive. I can only imagine what I would have felt if the thread had turned into this.


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## Individuation (Jul 24, 2006)

I haven't read the whole thread, but since this came up with my OB at pre-conception counseling the other day, I thought I'd share.

I asked her what the guidelines were for alcholol while pregnant, and described what I'd done in my first pregnancy: IE, I'd abstained for the first trimester, had about 1/2 glass of wine on a couple of occasions during the second semester, and had a couple of beers toward the end (no more than one at a sitting).

She said that the regulations had been changed since I was pg (in 1997), and that they now said NO alcohol at all (when I was pg, a couple of drinks a month was considered OK), but that "that's not for you, that's because some mothers took any license to drink as license to drink all the time" and that the amount I had had was perfectly and completely OK.

This is a rather mainstream American OB (not THAT mainstream, as she knows I'm having a HB but is agreeing to see me for prenatal care... its the best of both worlds for me as her hospital insists I'm "high-risk" due to early-stage MS and I WON'T deal with their "high-risk" policies, but I wanted this particular doc for prenatal, then a bomebirth with a midwife, and this doc will sign me in if I have to transfer. Anyway...) Like I said, fairly mainstream American doc, telling me that the American alcohol consumption warning is purposely excessive in order to scare alkie moms (not her phrasing, mine!) into not taking that first drink.

We also chatted about how tradition stouts can be very good for anemic/low B vitamin pregnant women.


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## kaspar (Nov 9, 2005)

wow, it's amazing all the vastly different opinions on this topic.

i stopped drinking when we started ttc, and haven't had a drink since last new year's (i'm due next january), and when i remarked to my midwife that i reeeeally wanted a glass of wine, she seemed surprised that i had actually managed to not drink a drop. i asked if one glass of wine would be okay, and she said she couldn't advise me to have a glass of wine, but in other countries it's standard practice and no one thinks about it. in "the good old days" some hospitals used to bring around a tray of beer to the maternity wards because they thought it would get a new mama's milk started! my midwife said they typically recommend drinking a glass of wine at the beginning of labour to help the mama relax & get things going. a friend of mine was "prescribed" a pint of guiness a week when she was pregnant.

i'm tempted to have a glass of wine since my midwife assures me that one won't hurt anyone, but i figure i've made it this far, i can go the distance. and, if something *did* go wrong, i'd never forgive myself (i've had that conversation with myself a million times about a millioin different things... ham sandwiches... soft-serve ice cream...)

probably the "rules" will change a few more times... they used to say a woman shouldn't gain more than 12 pounds during pregnancy (hah! i'm sure i gained 12 pounds by 12 weeks), and if a preggo found she was hungry, she should have a cigarette instead to quell her appetite.

when my mama was preg with my sister, the doctors said "everyone should go on hospital bed rest for two weeks from week 14 to week 16, as this is a critical time" so off she went to the hospital, where they gave her sleeping pills at night. she didn't want to take them, so she'd have a cocktail or two (manhattans) instead. my sister is a bit of a nutcase... don't know if there's any connection there!

it seems silly to talk about the distant past as a relevant comparison... sure, maybe women used to drink throughout pregnancy, back in the days when mamas and babes both would die in childbirth all the time, and the average life expectancy was 40. times have changed since then, and thank goodness!

2 drinks a night, 4 nights a week, does sound like a LOT. how well do you know this woman? is she otherwise really on top of taking care of her preggo self - eating well, lots of leafy greens and all that other good stuff, plenty of fluids, reading all the books, yada yada? or does she seem not that interested in the whole pregnancy thing? i know for us, we spent a long time ttc, and have been very vigilant about trying to do things right, and i have been surprised when i've met preggos who don't seem to know or care about folic acid and iron levels and all of that. maybe she doesn't know, maybe she's taking a calculated risk.


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## Sanguine (Sep 8, 2006)

not trying to grind an axe here, but last night I had a glass of wine before bed in an attempt to relax and avoid another hellishly unrestful night. My MIL the doctor said it was a fine idea. I very, very rarely drank anything in my pre-pregnant life (since pregnancy, I've had 3 or 4 glasses of wine in the last 9 months, with food), & I'm a pretty cheap date. So--the one small glass of wine did a great job of mellowing me out. Only problem was... when I got up to go to the bathroom, my usually squirmy baby was TOTALLY STILL and took major prodding for 5 minutes or more to provoke any movement. It scared the crap out of me, which is exactly what I don't need right now. So much for relaxing! From now on, I think I'll just stick with the warm milk.


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## Knittin' in the Shade (Feb 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MrsMoe*
I don't think so. Nobody here said anything about about a single drink once in a while. The issue is regular drinking. I'm sorry if I made you feel like I thought bad of anyone for having a glass of champange on New Years or another holiday.









YOU have said, several times, that you'd never expose your child to "booze", and asked why it's so important for a mama to have alcohol during pregnancy. So, while you're paying lip service to it being okay with you for a mama to have an occasional drink, your repeated comments and assertions are completely contradictory to that.


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## gwynthfair (Mar 17, 2006)

I wouldn't worry too much...babies in the womb sleep 90% of the time, and are very hard to wake up. I just watched that documentary on NGC, "In The Womb." It was very fascinating.


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## prettypixels (Apr 13, 2006)

Quote:

it seems silly to talk about the distant past as a relevant comparison... sure, maybe women used to drink throughout pregnancy, back in the days when mamas and babes both would die in childbirth all the time, and the average life expectancy was 40. times have changed since then, and thank goodness!
Homebirth opponents use those exact words to shoot down womens desires to birth at home you know... just thought I'd point that out.

FWIW I think women used to die in childbirth not from drinking beer







but from things like placental rupture resulting in excessive bleeding. No blood transfusions back then! Or infections. The world was not so sterile back then either. Failure to thrive for little guys who made it out was pretty common. All kinds of diseases, etc. Of course if you live in a third world country without access to modern medical care, those things still apply to you. Also...

"Behind the direct causes of maternal mortality-obstetric complications and unsafe abortions-lie the conditions of women's lives: inadequate care during delivery, chronic disease and malnutrition, poverty, isolation, and unwanted pregnancies." http://www.infoforhealth.org/pr/m12/m12chap2_1.shtml

I know you weren't saying that drinking a beer would cause a mom or baby to die.. I just thought that argument was completely erroneous. Talking about a lack of zillions of FAS babies when moms used to drink LOTS commonly is really, not. I still don't think we should drink lots... but I am like the majority of women here, I don't see a problem with an occassional drink.

I'll also add that it is kind of funny to me how most of mainstream America avoids certain things like the plague while pregnant... alcohol, caffeine, tuna... but they feel perfectly fine waltzing into a hospital with veins at the ready for whatever drugs the doctors want to pump into them.







: I don't get it!

BTW I am seriously wondering... what is wrong with soft-serve ice-cream?


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## gwynthfair (Mar 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prettypixels*
I'll also add that it is kind of funny to me how most of mainstream America avoids certain things like the plague while pregnant... alcohol, caffeine, tuna... but they feel perfectly fine waltzing into a hospital with veins at the ready for whatever drugs the doctors want to pump into them.







: I don't get it!

I totally agree! A woman I work with totally chastized me for having a cup of decaf coffee, but then told me I should just go to the store and get some anti-nausea medicine for morning sickness, and thinks I'm crazy for not taking narcotics during childbirth. It's very strange.


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## Robert Goodman (Mar 13, 2006)

AFAIK there's never been a study proving the existince of FAS. Identification of a FAS seems to have been an artifact of lack of observer blinding, which was then carried on into the design of further studies. Blinded expert observers have been unable to consistently identify a complex of signs that constitute any particular syndrome from alcohol consumption. About the most that can be said with any reliability (from a combination of epidemiology & animal models) is that well beyond the point of moderate drinking (well in excess of the 2 drinks/day being discussed here as excessive), there is a negative correlation of birth weight to increased alcohol consumption. In other words, among gravid women who are all in the class of heavy drinkers, the more they drink, the smaller the babies tend to be at birth.

Further, the paucity of studies seeking to identify benefits to the offspring from alcohol consumption biases the entire subject. How do we know that abstaining from alcohol during pregnancy or during its 1st trimester is not the cause of defects? (If you naively tried to project the regression line from the heavy drinkers, it would predict that failure to drink daily would lead to IDM-sized babies!) For that matter, how do we know that eating, or abstaining from, licorice or Brussels sprouts or who-knows-what can't be found to be associated with some adverse outcome? None of them have been proven safe at any level either, but because they don't carry any moral baggage, they have not drawn similar fire.

The same can be said of post-natal consumption of alcohol. There's no reason to think children's bodies to be severely intolerant to alcohol.

Robert


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## askew (Jun 15, 2006)

:


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

I might have a glass of wine in labor, or maybe during some night of painful B/H when tea just isn't working.
I don't have an issue with a drink during pregnancy. I have the common sense, and moderation in mind with alcohol..Pepsi or chocolate on the other hand...







:


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## roadfamily6now (Sep 14, 2006)

well, I know of many kids with FAS and it is not something I care to cause in my own children. I choose not to take in any alcohol at all!

I also have a theory about those europeans. I think that their systems are better equipted to handle alcohol. Ours are not. I dont know what happend but when europeans came to america suddenly alcohol turning into something of nightmares. People drank in excess over and over and over again. I think this did something to our genetic makeup and our abiltiy to deal with alcohol.
That is why there is FAS more so in America then in Europe.

Either way, Alcohol is NOT passing through these lips anytime I am with child.


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## TwinMomWendy (Jul 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *darsmama* 
I might have a glass of wine in labor, or maybe during some night of painful B/H when tea just isn't working.
I don't have an issue with a drink during pregnancy. I have the common sense, and moderation in mind with alcohol..Pepsi or chocolate on the other hand...







:

OH NO....I know I didn't hear you dis Pepsi........







My hubby gets so mad at me, as it takes a week for me to finish a 20 oz bottle of Pepsi. "I'm saaaavoring it" I tell him.

MrsMoe - did you know that 98% of statistics can be manipulated to say whatever you want them to?


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## lolalola (Aug 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beachcomber* 
Pregnant women in the US and by default Canada are policed far too much by doctors, spouses, friends and neighbors. It's bordering on obsessive. It is totally unacceptable that society has been granted this right to monitor, report on and chastise pregnant women. No one is watched as closely as the pregnant woman. *We lose self determination because suddenly everyone has a right to comment on everything we put into our mouthes, be it an herbal tea, a vitamin or a morsel of food*.

Well said!!!!!


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## kdf (Nov 2, 2005)

Well I have a adopted brother in law who has FAS and I see the effects. I think drinking beer with child is totally wrong. Also if some think that it depends on the chil, that some will get it and some won't, why would you want to take that chance. You get to have a moment of pleasure drinking it but then your child has to suffer a lifetime of difficults. Just not worth it.


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## gwynthfair (Mar 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Robert Goodman* 
AFAIK there's never been a study proving the existince of FAS. Identification of a FAS seems to have been an artifact of lack of observer blinding, which was then carried on into the design of further studies. Blinded expert observers have been unable to consistently identify a complex of signs that constitute any particular syndrome from alcohol consumption. About the most that can be said with any reliability (from a combination of epidemiology & animal models) is that well beyond the point of moderate drinking (well in excess of the 2 drinks/day being discussed here as excessive), there is a negative correlation of birth weight to increased alcohol consumption. In other words, among gravid women who are all in the class of heavy drinkers, the more they drink, the smaller the babies tend to be at birth.

Further, the paucity of studies seeking to identify benefits to the offspring from alcohol consumption biases the entire subject. How do we know that abstaining from alcohol during pregnancy or during its 1st trimester is not the cause of defects? (If you naively tried to project the regression line from the heavy drinkers, it would predict that failure to drink daily would lead to IDM-sized babies!) For that matter, how do we know that eating, or abstaining from, licorice or Brussels sprouts or who-knows-what can't be found to be associated with some adverse outcome? None of them have been proven safe at any level either, but because they don't carry any moral baggage, they have not drawn similar fire.

The same can be said of post-natal consumption of alcohol. There's no reason to think children's bodies to be severely intolerant to alcohol.

Robert

Well at least no one can accuse you of just making stuff up to justify drinking while you're pregnant!

Another thing...doctors and the allopathic medical establishment....they've never been wrong before, right?


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## OldFashionedGirl (Mar 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *roadfamily6now* 
well, I know of many kids with FAS and it is not something I care to cause in my own children. I choose not to take in any alcohol at all!

I also have a theory about those europeans. I think that their systems are better equipted to handle alcohol. Ours are not. I dont know what happend but when europeans came to america suddenly alcohol turning into something of nightmares. People drank in excess over and over and over again. I think this did something to our genetic makeup and our abiltiy to deal with alcohol.
That is why there is FAS more so in America then in Europe.

Either way, Alcohol is NOT passing through these lips anytime I am with child.


It is certainly your choice whether to drink alcohol or not. However I think your "theory" is bunk. Do you have any scientific basis for this "theory" of yours, or is it just your way of rationalization?


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Robert Goodman* 
AFAIK there's never been a study proving the existince of FAS. Identification of a FAS seems to have been an artifact of lack of observer blinding, which was then carried on into the design of further studies. Blinded expert observers have been unable to consistently identify a complex of signs that constitute any particular syndrome from alcohol consumption. About the most that can be said with any reliability (from a combination of epidemiology & animal models) is that well beyond the point of moderate drinking (well in excess of the 2 drinks/day being discussed here as excessive), there is a negative correlation of birth weight to increased alcohol consumption. In other words, among gravid women who are all in the class of heavy drinkers, the more they drink, the smaller the babies tend to be at birth.

Further, the paucity of studies seeking to identify benefits to the offspring from alcohol consumption biases the entire subject. How do we know that abstaining from alcohol during pregnancy or during its 1st trimester is not the cause of defects? (If you naively tried to project the regression line from the heavy drinkers, it would predict that failure to drink daily would lead to IDM-sized babies!) For that matter, how do we know that eating, or abstaining from, licorice or Brussels sprouts or who-knows-what can't be found to be associated with some adverse outcome? None of them have been proven safe at any level either, but because they don't carry any moral baggage, they have not drawn similar fire.

The same can be said of post-natal consumption of alcohol. There's no reason to think children's bodies to be severely intolerant to alcohol.

Robert

What exactly are you basing this on? There have been hundreds of studies done on FAS, many of those have conclusively found certain facial characteristics resulting from heavy alcohol consumption during the time immediately following implantation until about 12 weeks, if I remember correctly.

I thought this argument was about very minor alcohol consumption. I think you're the first to assert that heavy drinking doesn't risk harming your unborn child, and I just can't agree with you there. Yes, doctors are frequently wrong. Yes, medicine frequently makes mistakes. But there have been extensive studies done on FAS/E, and I just don't see what the medical profession stands to gain from arguing that women shouldn't drink while pregnant.

For some of those studies, go to www.pubmed.gov and search FAS.

Here's an interesting one about Italy which I think relates to the discussion:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum


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## Robert Goodman (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
What exactly are you basing this on? There have been hundreds of studies done on FAS, many of those have conclusively found certain facial characteristics resulting from heavy alcohol consumption during the time immediately following implantation until about 12 weeks, if I remember correctly.

In none of those studies have blinded observers been able consistently to distinguish a facies peculiar to the putative FAS.

Quote:

I thought this argument was about very minor alcohol consumption. I think you're the first to assert that heavy drinking doesn't risk harming your unborn child, and I just can't agree with you there.
You mischaracterize what I wrote. Heavy drinking has been negatively correlated with birth weight, which is usually considered a harm in that it is a risk factor for death and other adverse outcomes. There's some evidence, albeit weaker, of correlation with some specific types of defects. But there's nothing as definitive with alcohol as with a number of commonly understood teratogens.

Quote:

I just don't see what the medical profession stands to gain from arguing that women shouldn't drink while pregnant.
Power. It's psychologic.

Quote:

teresting one about Italy which I think relates to the discussion:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum
Will do, thanks.

Now that I've read the abstract (I'm not plunking down $39 for the article, though I mihgt if I come across it in the library), I take this as the bottom line:

"Maternal reports of current drinking were significantly higher for mothers of FASD children than comparison mothers,"

I'd drink more too, if I had a disordered child.

"but reported rates of overall drinking during pregnancy were not significantly different."

Robert


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## freedomfirst (May 17, 2014)

I am just curious why you are sticking your nose into your "neighbors/friends" business? I am a pro-life advocate but I also believe in people making their own choices. Is your plan to call Children & Welfare on your "neighbor/friend?" If so then you could really be stirring up a whole bunch of craziness that could go on for your "neighbor/friend" for years to come. If this woman gives birth to this baby and the baby suffers from any kind of defects or disabilities caused by the mother, the mother will be held accountable. I do understand your concern for this innocent unborn child, but just think before doing anything rash. Maybe you should talk to this woman. I work in a family law firm and have seen what assumptions have put families through. God Bless you ad your "neighbor/friend" and her precious baby.


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## apeydef (Mar 16, 2013)

This post is from 2006!


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Actually, it was started on 7/06/2005, so it is almost 8 years old. The last posts were from 2006, though.


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## apeydef (Mar 16, 2013)

Yea I was looking at the last posts!


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