# Maybe unethical question



## Temperance (Sep 9, 2007)

If no one feels comfortable answering, I understand.

I was diagnosed with a missed miscarriage. I should be 11 weeks but the baby measures only 8 weeks. I've known this since I was 8.5 weeks but my OB went on vacation, leaving me dangling for two weeks because appearantly I have 6 weeks before it becomes toxic.
(Toxic to the body but what about the mind.

4 days ago I began to feel bad physically and called the office to see if I should go to the ER or could I see someone covering his service. I got sent to an alternate.
This alternate is appaulled by my treatment. She immediately confirmed the diagnoses, did blood work and schedualled me for a D&C because I still haven't started bleeding. My D&C is July 22.
I started spotting brown the evening I went to the new doctor. I've been having mild cramps, but nothing like miscarriage cramps. (Been there, done that...) Yesterday I passed some small black blood clots.

I'm so sick of this. I can't mourn, I can't make plans, I can't even go to work because I might just leave them hanging and that would suck.
I need my life back!!

I really want to use some arnica or drink some tea to get things started but I'm scared. What if I do something stupid or take too much and I have to go to the ER and tell them.

I want to be a normal grieving person, not a stupid fool.
Is there any natural, safe way that I can get things moving? I need this out of me!!!


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

NOTE: I AM NOT A BIRTH PROFESSIONAL. I just happened to see this post and couldn't not respond.

I am just going to relay what my midwife had me do in the same situation (blighted ovum, in that case). She had me take Lobelia and False Unicorn Root tinctures. I ended up having a D&C anyway, but supposedly those can help some people. I would definitely talk it over with an herbalist or a midwife before you do it, though. You can also find out some info on this through Dr. Google.

I'm sorry for your loss


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## meganmarie (Jan 29, 2005)

Not a birth professional but wanted to respond to your post because I have been in your situation. This is not medical advice, just sharing my experience.

I was diagnosed with missed miscarriage in my first pregnancy. My OB at the time (actually a very sympathetic and low-intervention-minded lady) gave me the option to do a D&C or wait for the body to take care of things itself. I was thrilled to have an option that wouldn't involve hospital/medical scary stuff, so went home and waited. And waited. For 2 weeks.

I completely understand exactly how you feel. I did my best to work from home and keep up appearances, but its a sad, anxious, nerve-wracking and miserable thing to sit around and wait for your loss to be completed. Finally, I couldn't take the waiting any more, yet I still hoped to avoid a D&C. I read online that cytotec/misoprostol could be used to induce a missed m/c, and called my OB, who agreed to prescribe it. I took her suggested dose at home (inserted vaginally) and it went into effect within hours.

What I then went through was one of the toughest nights of my life - imagine the worst menstrual cramps, times 10, plus vomiting and diarrhea...I spent at least 3-4 hours in the bathroom in the middle of the night, passing clots of blood and emptying my stomach, in between lying in a knot on the floor waiting to die. But then it got better, and then it was over. I had a few more days of lighter, period-like bleeding, did a check-up at the OB's office, and that was it.

I'm not sure I'd wholeheartedly recommend this to anyone, given how tough it was, and I understand that there are dangers to using cytotec, so please don't consider this advice! But I guess I'd say it could be an option, and might be something you talked to your OB about. Not exactly "natural", but to me being in my own home was much better, and it still felt less invasive than the traditional alternative.


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## Temperance (Sep 9, 2007)

I had a miscarriage last year at 8 weeks. I had one bout of serious pain that lasted about an hour and half, then 36 hours I had another 2 hour bout of the worst, most evil pain I could ever imagine. I passed it all naturally without a D&C or medical intervention. (My SO got really scared and forced me to go to the hospital, but everything went naturally before they could do anything. They just hydrated me and did an ultrasound o make sure it was all gone.)

I imagine this time the pain could be similar.
I know how much I bleed before and how much it hurt and I told my doctor that I would go to the hospital if either was worse.

Does exercise help?


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## Temperance (Sep 9, 2007)

Why was this moved? I was asking birthing professionals for a reason...


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## meganmarie (Jan 29, 2005)

I think it was moved because of this, from the forum guidelines:

Quote:

This forum is not intended to be an "Ask the Experts" forum for members to submit their questions to the trained professionals who frequent the forum. Questions and posts unrelated to being a birth professional should be submitted to the appropriate forum (I'm Pregnant, Birth and Beyond, Health and Healing, Fertility, etc). Off-topic posts and threads will be moved or removed. Please note the Medical Advice disclaimer to
make sure your posts are not offering nor soliciting medical advice. Please also note our Birth and Beyond Namecalling Reminder here.


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## dewi (Jul 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meganmarie* 
. Finally, I couldn't take the waiting any more, yet I still hoped to avoid a D&C. I read online that cytotec/misoprostol could be used to induce a missed m/c, and called my OB, who agreed to prescribe it. I took her suggested dose at home (inserted vaginally) and it went into effect within hours.

What I then went through was one of the toughest nights of my life - imagine the worst menstrual cramps, times 10, plus vomiting and diarrhea...I spent at least 3-4 hours in the bathroom in the middle of the night, passing clots of blood and emptying my stomach, in between lying in a knot on the floor waiting to die. But then it got better, and then it was over. I had a few more days of lighter, period-like bleeding, did a check-up at the OB's office, and that was it.

I'm not sure I'd wholeheartedly recommend this to anyone, .

I'm a birth professional
DO NOT take cytotec, for exactly what was described^^ unnecessarily violent contractions.

A D&C is not as difficult as cytotec, you're given a light sedative and put to sleep. It's easy to do compared to inducing labor.


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## dewi (Jul 26, 2004)

I'm going to weigh in with my opinion aobut home remedy induction for miscarriages that are done without the guidance of an experienced herbalist or health care practitioner. *Don't do it!*

Women in 1st world countries should not be inducing miscarriages or abortions with home remedies when you have so many safe medical options available to you.

The herbal inductions do have side-effects, some quite severe. Women with low blood pressure are advised not to use herbal formulas. If you do choose to use a home herbal remedy use the formulas with extreme caution. In excess they are toxic, they can even be lethal. They will certainly cause nausea and cramping.

So in other words, please make an intelligent decision.


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## 2sweetboysmom (Aug 1, 2006)

I disagree. While I believe that it is never right for a late term loss, or to induce labor at term, used judicously cytotec is a very good alternative for a missed miscarriage, but should be medically monitored.
My personal experience: At 16 weeks I was given 100mcg orally, followed 2hours later by 200mcg vaginally. I never had more than light menstrual/early labor type cramps/contractions. I was able to deliver my baby whole after only 6 hours from the oral dose. Physically it was nearly painless and emotionally it was far better for me than a D&C. It was my desire to avoid a D&C at all cost if possible. I did not want to deal with the possible reprocussions further affecting my fertility and ability to carry and not miscarry. There is a signifigant risk for ashermans and PID from a D&C. I wound up needing one anyhow because the placenta would not detach (a common problem in a second tri loss) and I was loosing a bunch of blood. I was fully awake, and took no pain meds for the d&c. My choice. I wanted to know that I was not injured in the process. It felt strange and hurt like late labor, but was totaly do-able for me. I was sure I was not scraped too deeply, but I did wind up with PID and that took 3 months to clear up.

All that to say they both have their place depending on the woman and the situation.


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## Temperance (Sep 9, 2007)

First of all, I can't do the cytotec/misoprostol route because it's not really my favorite spice. I don't keep it on hand in my cupboard.

Secondly...if I was going to be stupid, I wouldn't be asking questions and advice. Not wanting a dead body inside you is, in my limited opinion, a reasonable thing. Wanting to damage or kill yourself to get it out is, in my limited opinion, definitely an unreasonable thing.

I was just looking for a tea that would stimulate contraction (kind of like a foot massage) if they were ready to start...kind of a jump start. I'm not looking to rearrange the shape of the universe.


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## Mamabeakley (Jul 9, 2004)

I think it is weird that this was moved. People ask questions of birth professionals in that forum all the time and most of them don't get moved.

I am not a medical professional, but I have a couple of books on my shelves with recommendations from herbalists etc. on this topic. I'm not sure I would personally follow these recommendations without someone who'd used them before on hand - and I'd definitely not do anything without SOMEONE on hand to monitor me.

Aviva Jill Romm (The Natural Pregnancy Book):

1 oz each cotton root & black cohosh tinctures, plus 1/2 oz blue cohosh tincture.
Day 1: Take 1 teaspoon of the above combination every 4 hours. Discontinue
Day 2: Take 1 teaspoon of the above combination every hour for 4 hours. Then take 1/2 teaspoon every 30 minutes for 4 hours. Discontinue.
Contractions will usually start by the end of the 2nd day. If after 2 days no contractions begin, skip a day and then resume, following all of day 2 one more time.

Tea of basil or cinnamon promotes contractions and prevents excessive bleeding. Steep 1 teaspoon of either herb in 1 cup boiling water, covered, for 10 minutes.

There are a couple of other much vaguer recommendations.

Take care.


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## jtrt (Feb 25, 2009)

I am sorry for your loss, momma. I am not a birth professional but I am a RN and have had 2 missed miscarriages in the last year.

Have you considered using blue cohosh and black cohosh tinctures to induce labor? My midwife suggested using 20 drops each of Blue and Black Cohosh tinctures every hour, not to exceed five doses.

My personal rant here: It is atrocious that you have been left in a lurch like this. I was vehemently opposed to having a D&C for many reasons and was left feeling like I was trying to perform my own DIY abortion. It is terrible that missed miscarriage is such a common (though tragic) problem and the OB/MW community has so little to offer women besides invasive, expensive surgery and a drug with unpleasant side effects. I realize it is not easy to convince a uterus to let go of what it is designed to nurture and protect. But come on...can't medical science give this a little time and effort? Women deserve better than what we are getting now.

Amy


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## nashvillemidwife (Dec 2, 2007)

I will refrain from advising you as to how to proceed, but I did want to comment on the doctor's statement that you have 6 weeks until the miscarriage becomes "toxic". I am not aware that there is such a defined time frame. Granted it does not happen right away, but I have never heard of a practitioner writing it off for that amount of time. Expectant management of a miscarriage (i.e. letting the body take care of it naturally) routinely involves repeated lab work to watch for developing infection and coagulation problems. That is the standard of care, at least in my corner of the world.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamabeakley* 
I think it is weird that this was moved. People ask questions of birth professionals in that forum all the time and most of them don't get moved.

This has not been true since the policy was instituted. Since then posts have regularly been moved.


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## mamato3cherubs (Nov 30, 2004)

Not speaking as a professional--- Just another person with layman's knowledge.

If it was me I would research Blue and Black cohosh. You are already showing signs of an end, you would not be starting from scratch. These could help move things along.

Of course you know to nourish yourself as well as possible before, during, and after this process. It can help with emotional as well as physical recovery.

You may really want to consider finding an herbalist to consult in your area. They are often very helpful.

As for having to go to the ER and explain. You are not a DR, your DR blew you off, whatever you are there for does not need explaining beyond the statments required for proper evaluation and treatment. There should be no judging and if there was, I guess I am the type to not care what they think. It is not their bodies and it is not illeagal.

I would also never step foot in the office of that OB you were seeing.

I am so sorry for your loss.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Temperance* 
If no one feels comfortable answering, I understand.

I was diagnosed with a missed miscarriage. I should be 11 weeks but the baby measures only 8 weeks. I've known this since I was 8.5 weeks but my OB went on vacation, leaving me dangling for two weeks because appearantly I have 6 weeks before it becomes toxic.
(Toxic to the body but what about the mind.

4 days ago I began to feel bad physically and called the office to see if I should go to the ER or could I see someone covering his service. I got sent to an alternate.
This alternate is appaulled by my treatment. She immediately confirmed the diagnoses, did blood work and schedualled me for a D&C because I still haven't started bleeding. My D&C is July 22.
I started spotting brown the evening I went to the new doctor. I've been having mild cramps, but nothing like miscarriage cramps. (Been there, done that...) Yesterday I passed some small black blood clots.

I'm so sick of this. I can't mourn, I can't make plans, I can't even go to work because I might just leave them hanging and that would suck.
I need my life back!!

I really want to use some arnica or drink some tea to get things started but I'm scared. What if I do something stupid or take too much and I have to go to the ER and tell them.

I want to be a normal grieving person, not a stupid fool.
Is there any natural, safe way that I can get things moving? I need this out of me!!!

I don't think this is an unethical question at all. I am so sorry about the way your previous ob mistreated you. Take it easy, mama.


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## Megan73 (May 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2sweetboysmom* 
I disagree. While I believe that it is never right for a late term loss, or to induce labor at term, used judicously cytotec is a very good alternative for a missed miscarriage, but should be medically monitored.
(snip)
There is a signifigant risk for ashermans and PID from a D&C.









:
There are several studies showing that medical (as opposed to surgical) management of missed miscarriage is safe and effective. It was certainly recommended by my MW for my nine-week loss although I was lucky enough to miscarry naturally.
OP - I'm so sorry for your loss. I hope this is over for you soon. I'm really angry with your doctors because there is research showing - not surprisingly! - that depression gets worse the longer women have to wait.


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## dewi (Jul 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Temperance* 
I was just looking for a tea that would stimulate contraction (kind of like a foot massage) if they were ready to start...kind of a jump start. I'm not looking to rearrange the shape of the universe.

Technically what has to take place is that you are inducing labor by using the "tea" for the miscarriage to take place, it's not like a foot massage at all.

That was my point of the post, what you are doing in reality is inducing an abortion, and it's very uncontrolled when you use an herbal "tea" or tincture at home becasue you need to take it in a strengh that is toxic, most women induce labor with these herbs to give birth with a knowledgeable HCP. We have so many safe effective methods without diy at home .


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## ASusan (Jun 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nashvillemidwife* 
I will refrain from advising you as to how to proceed, but I did want to comment on the doctor's statement that you have 6 weeks until the miscarriage becomes "toxic". I am not aware that there is such a defined time frame. Granted it does not happen right away, but I have never heard of a practitioner writing it off for that amount of time. Expectant management of a miscarriage (i.e. letting the body take care of it naturally) routinely involves repeated lab work to watch for developing infection and coagulation problems. That is the standard of care, at least in my corner of the world.










:

Can you get to an acupuncturist or practitioner of Traditional Chinese Medicine? Either acupuncture or herbs prescribed by a TCM practitioner can help get things started.


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## Temperance (Sep 9, 2007)

I'm schedualled for a D&C in 5 days.

I don't care what people, especially the medical community, thinks about me, but I am concerned about how they would treat me.

For instance...where I to make my own brew to induce labor without knowing what I was doing, I could easily bring on a hemorage. I go to the hospital and don't tell them, they try to treat me and there is a massive drug interaction that leaves me either bleed to death, brain dead, or in cardiac arrest.

This is done in 5 days, but since it's trying to start on my own, I was just wondering if I could give it a tiny nudge. The only one I can see sooner then 5 days is the ER.


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## ecurlycue (May 17, 2004)

I was just in a similar position as you. I was supposed to be 16 weeks pregnant and the baby had died about 7-8 weeks...there was an ultrasound confirmation. I researched the best I could waiting it out. The chance for infection is low because the uterus is closed off... (that is what my doc said to me) there is a chance of infection called DIC (Disseminated Intavascular Coagulation) IT can be tested for by doing blood tests. So you can be monitored for it. That being said, I chose to use cytotec. I inserted 3 200mg tablets as instructed, in looking back I would have tried with half of one pill first. That 600mg is the standard dose.To make a long story short... I bled very heavily...passed out at one point, and ended up going to the hospital. The doctor did a manual extraction. I was given methergine to take for a week. I had a blood transfusion because I had lost so much blood I couldn't sit up to pee and I have 3 other kids to take care of (I could have refused the blood but it may have been 2-3 months for recovery) I went home after the transfusion and an overnight in the hospital. Bled for 4 weeks no huge amounts and it was very viscous(mucus like consistency) then at exactly 28 days from the first ordeal i started to hemorrhage again. The doc called in methergine which I took for two more days. It slowed the bleeding within 15 minutes of taking it. on day 3 I passed more tissue. (even though they had done an ultrasound after the manual extraction and they thought they had removed everything) From the looks of the tissue which I took pictures of and examined and sent pics to my midwife, it looks like an undeveloped twin. exactly 4 days after that and 7 days after the second bout of heavy bleeding I stopped bleeding. I avoided a d&C and am so glad for the way things played out. If I had to do it over again(not that I would wish that on anyone) I would probably try using herbs first but if these options failed I would go with the cytotec but a minor dose...it was a crazy ride! I like you just think I needed a kick start. That is my story if you have questions I would be more than happy to answer them. This happened July 1st 2009 so it is all so fresh in my memory. Good luck in whatever you choose but know you can avoid a d&c there just may be other things to deal with.


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