# WWYD...Neighbor told DS she wants to have SEX with Him!!



## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

So my 6 year old son told me today that the 5 year old neighbor told him she wants to have SEX with him!!!

WHAT would you do in this situation? We are acquaintances with the parents...I am thinking I should tell them about it, right? I would certainly want to know if it were my daughter saying things like that to little boys.

Also, what should I tell my DS? He is really embarrassed and upset about it. He is a very modest guy, and it really freaked him out. He does know what sex is, and I told him that it isn't for kids to do, then he told me that other kids in the neighborhood (10 years old) are doing it.

Now I am worried that my son is going to start feeling peer pressure to have sex. At barely 6 years old!!!









I want to give him some ideas of what he can say in the future if this girl, or anyone else, is making him feel uncomfortable about sex stuff. He just feels miserable about what happened...like he was sexually harassed. I guess I can be happy that this makes him uncomfortable and he knows it is wrong for kids to be acting out in this way, but still...

AAACCCKK I am not ready for this!!!

Also, I am not upset with the girl in any way. Just wanted to make that clear...if nothing else I am concerned that she is going to get herself in trouble. Some little boys may have said yes...


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## AVeryGoodYear (Mar 31, 2009)

I would definitely talk to her parents about it, making it clear that you're not _angry_ at her. She probably doesn't even know what it really means, just has picked it up from listening to other kids and whatnot. I'd like to know if my little girl said something age-inappropriate and potentially dangerous like that, for sure.


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## IlluminatedAttic (Aug 25, 2006)

This must be so stressful and I'm sorry your little boy is feeling so bad. I would hazard a guess that although he may understand what the word sex means, the little girl may not have a clear understanding. She may think it means kissing or hugging or some sort of fondling. Letting your son know this may help alleviate some of the darkness of his feelings.

I would talk to the parents. Just keep it like you stated here - you're not angry at the girl at all, just concerned and felt that they should know. This may be just something she heard in the neighborhood, especially if your son has heard such things, or it may be more. Her parents will have to determine that.

Meanwhile I would talk to your son about ways he can respond if the subject comes up again with her or any other kids. Role playing might help him feel more confident. You can also offer to keep playtime close to home and in his own yard for a while so that he can feel your presence and knows he has back-up right at hand.


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## PinkinPA (Feb 26, 2007)

I agree with the other replys. Let the little girl's parents know what she said, also tell them that she may have picked it up around the neighborhood and that your ds heard older kids talking about it. It may be important for them to know that it's going on where these kids play.

Also, let your ds know he did the right thing by telling you what happened...then give him a big hug


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Thanks for the responses!!

I have considered that she may not know what sex is, but I think she may have a pretty good idea. I hadn't considered explaining that to my son. That is a GREAT idea! She might not understand that you get naked when you have sex...I am sure that was the main thing that terrified my son.

I am very worried about the little girl because she is seriously the prettiest little girl I have ever seen. But not little girl pretty...more like a miniature super model. And she flaunts herself around. In fact, I just remembered that last weekend I thought I saw her lifting her bikini top up ( in a VERY seductive way...like a stripper!) in front of my son and another little boy, but I told myself I was being paranoid. And she was chasing them around and trying to kiss them...and on Sunday my son supposedly smacked her on the bottom. We play around like that in our family so I thought that was all it was...oh dear. I wonder if my son has been feeding into this, and it escalated to the little girl saying that.

I thought I had a few more years before I had to worry about this!!!


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

TEN!! OH maaan. Oh I really hope that is just rumor talk that he picked up and not true....oh sweetie...I get why you are stressed, this is way too soon to be having this kind of "practical application" talk about sex...it's supposed to be about "when a man and a woman love each other...." not about "When you are propositioned by your five year old neighbor...".

Yes, you must tell this girls parents. Best case scenario, she is overhearing things she should...allowed to watch TV and saw/heard something, etc....WORST case scenario...something not right is going on in her life, which is exposing her to ideas she is supposed to be too young to even be thinking about in those terms.

GL....ugh. Your poor boy...my brother was a sensitive kid at 6 and that would have really concerned him, had he been in that situation.









OKay, ETA: I just read your next post (above mine) and am SERIOUSLY weirded out at how sexualized this little girl is...oh man, and I know what you mean about miniature super model...oh man. OTHER MAMAS: is that normal, for a five year old?? If she is a TV watcher, is it maybe normal?? That sounds WAY over the top sexual for a five year old...FIVE IS TINY!? My baby is going to be five in four years!!! Ohhhh!! :vomit that is too much...way too much. OP, you need to tell these parents what you've seen...if this is her at five, what the HELL is this situation going to look like when she's 13!?


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## Teenytoona (Jun 13, 2005)

I wonder about telling her parents. A girl that young shouldn't know about flaunting herself. I suspect sexual abuse in that poor child's life.


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

well devil's advocate, when I was 5-6 years old I used to chase around my friends who were boys and try to kiss them. I have several memories of lifting up my dress in front of my brother's friends. I don't think that "screams" concern.

Also I know lots of kids who talk about "sex." Working with kids and going to school with teachers/future teachers you hear all kinds of stories about kids saying stuff like "lets go play sex" and "girl i'm going to sex you up!" but not *really* knowing what it means, just repeating it.

I think, yea, mention it to the parents, but does she have older siblings, cousins etc who are around? I think there is a chance she is hearing/seeing media that is exposing her to ideas/


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Teenytoona* 
I wonder about telling her parents. A girl that young shouldn't know about flaunting herself. I suspect sexual abuse in that poor child's life.

Sexual abuse is the red flag that goes up for me, too....but I feel the the quickest way to stop it, if something is happening to her, is to tell her mother...at least, one would hope.

Maybe....and I usually don't like stuff like this...but maybe calling the school and telling them about this and what she said to her son?? Because they are bound by law to speakto the parents and report red flags for sexual abuse...maybe? I hate doing things like that...but I can't help but think that this girls behavior is beyond normal...I jsut don't know, because I don't have afive year old. I'VE never known a five year old like that, though. ???


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Teenytoona* 
I wonder about telling her parents. A girl that young shouldn't know about flaunting herself. I suspect sexual abuse in that poor child's life.

I agree. My dd is 7.5 and has absolutely NO clue about sex (I don't think she even knows the word).

How do kids that are 5 even know the word sex let alone the mechanics of it or what to do to sexually entice another without somehow having seen it? I mean, even if she were curious about where babies come from, at that age, it's not normal to explain turning someone on, getting them in bed and exactly what happens. This is an age to give straight-forward and honest but *vague* answers, not specifics.

I would definitely talk to the mother.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
I agree. My dd is 7.5 and has absolutely NO clue about sex (I don't think she even knows the word).

How do kids that are 5 even know the word sex let alone the mechanics of it or what to do to sexually entice another without somehow having seen it? I mean, even if she were curious about where babies come from, at that age, it's not normal to explain turning someone on, getting them in bed and exactly what happens. This is an age to give straight-forward and honest but *vague* answers, not specifics.

I would definitely talk to the mother.


THAT'S what I thought...if my fiveyear old asks me where babies come from...the conversation that follows is goin to be much more about "When a man and a woman love each other and want to have a family" and "A womans body is designed to grow a baby inside..." etc...and NOTHING to do with exposing breasts, seductive behavior, etc....

But I do wonder how much TV the girl watches..if she has an older sibling or if she's just allowed to watch whatever she wants...she could have a lot of ideas in her head that are WAY innapropriate for her age...


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Teenytoona* 
I wonder about telling her parents. A girl that young shouldn't know about flaunting herself. I suspect sexual abuse in that poor child's life.

Or she just turned on the TV. But I agree I would "scope out" the parents first. You may be adding gasoline to the fire if there is something amiss in their home.









Quote:

OKay, ETA: I just read your next post (above mine) and am SERIOUSLY weirded out at how sexualized this little girl is...oh man, and I know what you mean about miniature super model...oh man. OTHER MAMAS: is that normal, for a five year old?? If she is a TV watcher, is it maybe normal?? That sounds WAY over the top sexual for a five year old...FIVE IS TINY!? My baby is going to be five in four years!!! Ohhhh!! :vomit that is too much...way too much. OP, you need to tell these parents what you've seen...if this is her at five, what the HELL is this situation going to look like when she's 13!?
I have a 5 year old and I have seen her try and act like this. Well not this badly but I have caught her trying to walk out the door to play with the neighbor kids in her 3 year old sister's skirt that hardly covers her bum and a really reveling top that also belongs to her sister. I know this is because her other girl friends around the same age wear that sort of stuff as we have discussed it. She feels left out. When we have asked her to not wear her sister's things and to cover her belly and legs and such these "friends" have told her it is because we think those parts of her are ugly. She came to us crying over that!







:







These girls are wearing tube tops and mini skirts and flipping their hair around and such. I have over heard these same girls talking about sex and fashion and it just sickens me what they have to say. My DH has caught them trying to get our DD to kiss other little boys and go with them to the little alley thing we have between apartments. I thought he was going to go through the roof!! We have since instituted a lot of rules like she has to play where we can see her, no going to these girl's houses, only playing outside in her play clothes, etc. There has been more than a few times I have just gotten fed up and sent these girls off my porch and had my DD play with her other friends right beneath our open window so I can hear her.

Yes we have approached their parents and I can sadly report they see nothing wrong with this behavior. As long as their DDs are leaving them alone they don't care. One of the Dads though REALLY gives us the creeps. I just do not get a good feeling around him at all.


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## KristaDJ (May 30, 2009)

I have to agree that most of what is on television today is enough to give this girl these ideas and plenty more







:. I wouldn't really think abuse but I would definitely talk to her mother about ALL the incidents you described as well as telling her about the 10yos supposedly having sex as well. Her daughter sounds like she is in real danger. I would also as my child which kids said they were having sex and then talk to their parents as well or just keep my kid far. far. away. from. them.
Poor little guy


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Okay...DEEP BREATH...

DH and I were just discussing this, and the responses here, and he told me that he heard this same girl say *'Spanking isn't okay unless it is ADULTS in the BEDROOM'* to one of the other kids in the neighborhood.

WTF??!!!! That is NUTS! Why would anyone say that to a FIVE year old???









Also, I think that she does watch pretty much whatever she wants to on TV. I am not sure if they have cable, but I was thinking maybe she watches MTV or something.

Oh man...little kids are being exposed to way too much, way too soon. I am so sad right now







I really like this girl. She is so smart and spunky!


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Ok wow! That little one is hearing waaaay too much. uke


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
Or she just turned on the TV. But I agree I would "scope out" the parents first. You may be adding gasoline to the fire if there is something amiss in their home.









I have a 5 year old and I have seen her try and act like this. Well not this badly but I have caught her trying to walk out the door to play with the neighbor kids in her 3 year old sister's skirt that hardly covers her bum and a really reveling top that also belongs to her sister. I know this is because her other girl friends around the same age wear that sort of stuff as we have discussed it. She feels left out. When we have asked her to not wear her sister's things and to cover her belly and legs and such these "friends" have told her it is because we think those parts of her are ugly. She came to us crying over that!







:







These girls are wearing tube tops and mini skirts and flipping their hair around and such. I have over heard these same girls talking about sex and fashion and it just sickens me what they have to say. My DH has caught them trying to get our DD to kiss other little boys and go with them to the little alley thing we have between apartments. I thought he was going to go through the roof!! We have since instituted a lot of rules like she has to play where we can see her, no going to these girl's houses, only playing outside in her play clothes, etc. There has been more than a few times I have just gotten fed up and sent these girls off my porch and had my DD play with her other friends right beneath our open window so I can hear her.

Yes we have approached their parents and I can sadly report they see nothing wrong with this behavior. As long as their DDs are leaving them alone they don't care. *One of the Dads though REALLY gives us the creeps. I just do not get a good feeling around him at all.*

I always wanted a daughter, but sometimes I breathe a sigh of relief that I have only boys.

Please pay attention to that bad feeling you get. It is very valid. I don't envy you at all.
It really broke my heart to hear that your dd's playmates told her that you thought parts of her body are ugly


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## Pirate Nicole (Oct 20, 2008)

Egads. My DD1 is 6, and wouldn't dream of behaving like that. She's still my baby! I can't imagine that this kind of behaviour is at all normal. Maybe, like some of the other mamas have suggested, she watches more grown up tv than she should. Does she have older siblings? ((()))S

Nicole


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

dubfam~ I do have to say that having 5 little girls has really made me see the sexualization (sp?) of our little girls in a lot of places I never noticed before. DH, too, and he is really not happy about that.

I hear ya about paying attention to that bad feeling! I was molested and I remember the first time I saw him out there watching all the kids play I said out loud to myself "I know that look". DH overheard me and ever since has stood out there and stared right back at him. He will drop what he is doing to make sure that creep knows someone is watching him. the guy usually gets uncomfortable and leaves. I want to do something for his kids but you know how it goes- you can't without proof.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

No older siblings


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
No older siblings

It makes me shudder to think she might have younger.

You know another thought I had is how this little girl is showing little boys how to treat girls/women in general. I am wondering if maybe this is how she sees her own parents behave? Maybe they are being too open around her.


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## Laggie (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
DH and I were just discussing this, and the responses here, and he told me that he heard this same girl say *'Spanking isn't okay unless it is ADULTS in the BEDROOM'* to one of the other kids in the neighborhood.

Oh dear... I can only hope that maybe she walked in at an inopportune moment in the parental bedroom? Perhaps she recently saw some sexual stuff that she's now acting out with the neighbourhood kids?

Not that it's a much better scenario but at least it's not molestation.

Hopefully this is an isolated incident? Or maybe it's a cable TV issue... Cripes. We're pretty open/liberal but I can't imagine having a 5 year old who's familiar with S & M.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

I was going to say that it was probably nothing: my 6yo once told my husband and me to stop having sex. We were kissing in a doorway. Even though he knew all about the "facts of life" he had somehow conflated the word "sex" with anything to do with hugging and kissing. So your op seemed like it could have an innocent explanation.

But the spanking comment? That's....unusual, to say the least. I would talk to the mother.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
I agree. My dd is 7.5 and has absolutely NO clue about sex (I don't think she even knows the word).

How do kids that are 5 even know the word sex let alone the mechanics of it or what to do to sexually entice another without somehow having seen it?

If there are older siblings, or other older kids around, it's not that uncommon to have picked things up. DS1 used to sometimes overhear some pretty raunchy conversations between my sister and some of her friends...and I think dd is, overall, even less sheltered than he was. She's picked stuff up. She's seen her older brother cuddling up on the couch with his gf...and he came home with a hickey about a month ago. Kids ask questions. (And, yeah - I wasn't that wild about having the "what is a hickey?" conversation with my six year old, either. That's life, I guess.)

This girl doesn't really sound that extreme to me. DD doesn't "flash" as far as I know - although she might - but she does pose in very adult ways sometimes. I honestly don't know where she's picked it up, but I think it's from another little girl she plays with, who watched a lot of tv. (We watch a lot of movies and a lot of them aren't what most would call age-appropriate, but they don't tend to be heavy on sexual content, either. We don't watch tv at all.) Sometimes, strange things stick in a child's head. Even the lifting her bikini top...I could see dd doing that, because she'd think it was funny. She and ds2 run around naked all the time, and nudity taboos are something that dd only semi-understands. Breaking them still holds considerable humour for her.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
I agree. My dd is 7.5 and has absolutely NO clue about sex (I don't think she even knows the word).

How do kids that are 5 even know the word sex let alone the mechanics of it or what to do to sexually entice another without somehow having seen it? I mean, even if she were curious about where babies come from, at that age, it's not normal to explain turning someone on, getting them in bed and exactly what happens. This is an age to give straight-forward and honest but *vague* answers, not specifics.

The OP's 6 year old knows what sex is, and was embarrassed. Why is it weird that the little girl would know, but not weird that the OPs sone knows?


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

I'm actually more inclined to believe that the little girl in the OP doesn't really know much about sex and is just piecing it together. It seems like she has a TV/schoolyard understanding of sex whereas with the OP's son it has been explained to him properly.


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## Barefoot~Baker (Dec 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
OTHER MAMAS: is that normal, for a five year old?? If she is a TV watcher, is it maybe normal?? That sounds WAY over the top sexual for a five year old...FIVE IS TINY!? My baby is going to be five in four years!!! Ohhhh!! :vomit that is too much...way too much. OP, you need to tell these parents what you've seen...if this is her at five, what the HELL is this situation going to look like when she's 13!?

Not normal here!!!

Oh my goodness, I can't believe this has come up at such a young age!

OP, good luck and I agree that the parents should be told, in an unjudgemental way


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

You know...I just remembered that when I was in kindergarten, kids used to talk all the time about "humping". It was usually pretty general, but I can remember an occasional comment about wanting to hump some specific girl or boy or whatever. If you actually talked to most of them about it, they had no clue what they were talking about. Many of them had older siblings, as well. Kids pick stuff up, and it doesn't have to mean anything sinister is happening.

OP: I'm not sure what I'd say to my son, but I'd definitely reassure him that he doesn't have to do anything he doesn't want to, and that most emphatically includes taking off his clothes!


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

So, after walking away from this thread for the afternoon and thinking...I think the little girl probably doesn't have anyone around safegaurding her innocence...she probably watches way too much TV and is privy to adult conversations she shouldn't be...I think it's absolutely tragic...just, unspeakable, that this child is too busy tryin to be sexy, to play out the rest of her childhood. I'm sure she's pieced things together, as another PP said, and says these things because no one treats her like a child at home and she equates "grown up" with "sexual" - ugh.

As the mother of a DD, I'm just so disheartened. What the hell is wrong with us? What has happened to our culture, that this is where we've landed.

This is why my house is a no tv house. This is why my children will be homeschooled in a coop, this is why we're buying a house in the country...people have said to me, "You know, you can't hide form the world" and I always become defensive and say "nono it's not to HIDE" - but you know what? I don't think I have any reason to feel ashamed, of my desire to hide away from this crap. I refuse to accept a reality, where my child is going to be having raunchy conversations with other five year olds about sex. I refuse to accept a reality, in which ten year olds are having sex and young girls are telling each other that their parents don't want them wearin tube tops because they think their DDs stomach is ugly. I won't acept it, I won't be a part of it and your damn right, that I'm going to hide my precious daughter away in the woods somewhere, to give her the childhood she deserves.

GEEEEZ!! I'm just steaming mad right now...I'm steaming mad, that simply being exposed to the culture of my people, is so corrupting to youth as this. We've known that when we had a family, we would do our best to try and carve out a little corner of the earth for ourselves..not even to prtend away the world...just to create a buffer, to create a reality which is gentle, slower and more..well, freakin' NORMAL, than the reality that is being pushed on people these days....today, I have been strengthened in my conviction...I am more sure now, than ever, that this is what we need to do.

I'm just sickened, by what some of you have shown me on this thread....I had NO idea how bad things have become in some places. WHAT ARE WE DOING to our children???

OP....what are you thinking?? Maybe a letter? Are you worried at all about the parents getting angry at this girl? I'd hate for her to be in trouble...


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
I'm just steaming mad right now...I'm steaming mad, that simply being exposed to the culture of my people, is so corrupting to youth as this.

Yeah, I've felt that way about various things too. I can get really worked up sometimes.


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## averlee (Apr 10, 2009)

Yes, maybe this is a little weird, maybe. But it's not outside the realm of normal 5-6 year old behavior. I don't think you need to tell her parents. I don't think you need to do anything but coach your son to say,"I don't like to play like that" and teach him about good and bad touches, etc.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
So, after walking away from this thread for the afternoon and thinking...I think the little girl probably doesn't have anyone around safegaurding her innocence...she probably watches way too much TV and is privy to adult conversations she shouldn't be...I think it's absolutely tragic...just, unspeakable, that this child is too busy tryin to be sexy, to play out the rest of her childhood. I'm sure she's pieced things together, as another PP said, and says these things because no one treats her like a child at home and she equates "grown up" with "sexual" - ugh.

*
As the mother of a DD, I'm just so disheartened. What the hell is wrong with us? What has happened to our culture, that this is where we've landed.*

This is why my house is a no tv house. This is why my children will be homeschooled in a coop, this is why we're buying a house in the country...people have said to me, "You know, you can't hide form the world" and I always become defensive and say "nono it's not to HIDE" - but you know what? I don't think I have any reason to feel ashamed, of my desire to hide away from this crap. I refuse to accept a reality, where my child is going to be having raunchy conversations with other five year olds about sex. I refuse to accept a reality, in which ten year olds are having sex and young girls are telling each other that their parents don't want them wearin tube tops because they think their DDs stomach is ugly. *I won't acept it, I won't be a part of it and your damn right, that I'm going to hide my precious daughter away in the woods somewhere, to give her the childhood she deserves.*

GEEEEZ!! *I'm just steaming mad right now...I'm steaming mad, that simply being exposed to the culture of my people, is so corrupting to youth as this.* We've known that when we had a family, we would do our best to try and carve out a little corner of the earth for ourselves..not even to prtend away the world...just to create a buffer, to create a reality which is gentle, slower and more..well, freakin' NORMAL, than the reality that is being pushed on people these days....today, I have been strengthened in my conviction...I am more sure now, than ever, that this is what we need to do.

I'm just sickened, by what some of you have shown me on this thread....I had NO idea how bad things have become in some places. WHAT ARE WE DOING to our children???

Oh I hear ya! And it goes beyond just this issue for me too as I am sure it does for you.







:

The thing is that though I don't want us to be of this world we still have to live in it so DH and I really think about ways to help our children understand the realities of this world so they don't get burned. It's just such a fine and difficult line. How can we allow our children a childhood and raise them to be conscious while at the same time circling the wagons? If only the answer was easy...


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## ashleyhaugh (Jun 23, 2005)

i was going to ask about older siblings too... we had a little girl in the kindergarten room at the daycare i worked at who would dance like a stripper when we did those goofy little go around in a circle and every one dances chant games... she also tried grinding on the boys a few times. we asked her where she learned to dance like that- her 12yo sister taught her.... she said her sister learned it from mtv. and we were in germany, the german mtv is worse than in the states, lol


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## HarperRose (Feb 22, 2007)

Oh my!!!

Last summer my kids were playing w/ a new neighbor (had been ehre a few mos) who is just a lovely girl! Her parents are wonderful We really like the family.

Anyway, one day the mom told me of an interaction she heard amongst my ds & dd and her dd. Apparently my ds (about 7-ish) had said something to the girls about sex. Ok, dh and I were HORRIFIED. We're good ppl, we monitor their play, what they watch, what they hear, etc. WHERE did he come up w/ this?!

We never did figure it out. BUT, as a result of that interaction, the kids weren't allowed to play together anymore (mutual from both families) but we're still friendly w/ them and the kids would see each other at school.

The mom was so stressed out to tell me, she was afraid I'd take it bad, etc. I thanked her and we stood there discussing and freaking out together.









Definitely talk to the child's mother. If she's like most any other mom, she'd want to know.








I'm so sorry you're going through this!!!


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## confustication (Mar 18, 2006)

Very creepy. DD has a friend (7) with older siblings who sometimes acts out like this. The older siblings were removed from another home (they are half-sisters) because they were being groomed to become prostitutes. The older girls are in 7th and 8th grade, I believe, and have taught the younger sisters (ages 7 and 9) that being sexy is how all girls are supposed to be.

I've had to effectively end dd's friendship with the youngest little girl because her family was too screwy for dd to be safe.

On another (maybe related?) note... I took dd to look for a bathing suit and found bikinis with padded tops in size 5/6. I was displeased.

We're doing such a disservice to our kids, and particularly to our young girls as we live in a hypersexualized society.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HarperRose* 
Oh my!!!

Last summer my kids were playing w/ a new neighbor (had been ehre a few mos) who is just a lovely girl! Her parents are wonderful We really like the family.

Anyway, one day the mom told me of an interaction she heard amongst my ds & dd and her dd. Apparently my ds (about 7-ish) had said something to the girls about sex. Ok, dh and I were HORRIFIED. We're good ppl, we monitor their play, what they watch, what they hear, etc. WHERE did he come up w/ this?!

He goes to school, right? That's all it takes.


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## HarperRose (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
He goes to school, right? That's all it takes.

Yup. That's the best guess we could come up with. And that was 1st grade.

Reading more on the OP's neighbor child.... I don't even know if my advice to talk to the parents would WORK!

Wow.


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## HarperRose (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *confustication* 

On another (maybe related?) note... I took dd to look for a bathing suit and found bikinis with padded tops in size 5/6. I was displeased.


Holy crap. I get uncomfortable when I see really low-cut swimsuit tops (bikini or 1 piece). And dd, of course, likes that style!







I talk to her about it a lot and hope that my advice is heard. Ialso don't buy her those super low cut tops.









Quote:

We're doing such a disservice to our kids, and particularly to our young girls as we live in a hypersexualized society.
Indeed. It's a real challenge to make sure that our values aren't watered down. yk?


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

Wow are people jumping to some conclusions!

It could very well be that she's being raised in a sex-positive household, the same as my daughter is. My daughter is 6.5 and has known what sex is -- and that it's for both pleasure AND reproduction -- since she was 3ish. She's made, "I'm going to have sex with ____" comments to us before, and we always explained that before you go through puberty, your body won't really be able to enjoy sex. If I were you, OP, I'd just assume that her parents explained sex as fun & babies but didn't think to say that it's not really pleasurable for children.

The spanking comment wouldn't freak me out, either. I could totally see one of our friends saying something like that around the kids. Not everyone thinks it's necessary to be tight-lipped around their kids.

Definitely, give your son some responses so that he doesn't feel so lost if something like this comes up in the future, but don't assume that his friend is being treated inappropriately just because she has knowledge you've chosen not to give your own child.


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
The OP's 6 year old knows what sex is, and was embarrassed. Why is it weird that the little girl would know, but not weird that the OPs sone knows?

Because, clearly, she wasn't embarrassed and if you're not teaching your kids to be embarrassed about sex and nudity, you're Doing It Wrong.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

We also have similar conversations with our DDs about sex. We are by no means frigid when it comes to sex but there is such a thing as being _too_ open.

There is explaining sex is fun and then there is condoning sexual activity in a 5 year old. No thanks! To me that isn't being open that's being irresponsible. Do you really believe a 5 year old should be a sexual being? Childish sexual exploration yes I can see that but this is more "adult".


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jessy1019* 
Because, clearly, she wasn't embarrassed and if you're not teaching your kids to be embarrassed about sex and nudity, you're Doing It Wrong.










Wowza!! Way to miss the point entirely.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I think you should talk to the parents and not let him play unsupervised with the neighborhood kids. If you can get a book at the library about sex at his level that may help you talk about the subject with less embarassment. I also don't think that you should think you are doing things wrong if you aren't teaching your child to be embarassed by nudity and sex. Your son's body will be with him forever, he shouldn't feel ashamed of it ever. He will also grow up to have adult relationships and he shouldn't feel embarassed about those either.


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## AbbieB (Mar 21, 2006)

I think that the way this child seems to be acting is creepy.

On the other hand, as a mother of a 5 year old DD, a lot of it seems normal too.

DD knows about sex, and could completely explain it to you. She also has some lingering misconceptions (like kissing=sex) that I have been clarifying so that she will not be saying inappropriate things (like mommy and Daddy were having sex in the kitchen, when what was really happening was we kissed.)

She has seen things on TV or movies, which I thought was tame, but she has pieced together. I really never thought of FRIENDS as being racy, until DD started repeating stuff.

I have been horrified by DD flashing me her butt or her vulva (gross!) because she thinks it's funny. I have seen her get her Barbies naked and let them "get pregnant". (One night Ken was laying under 2 or 3 Barbies at one time...it was hard not to laugh. She also builds them block walls so that nobody can see them "being private".) She also moves her body in, to my adult eyes, suggestive ways. But then I watch the Backyardigan dance she is imitating and realize it's innocent.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

My dd knew the ins and outs of sex at 5, and knew it's for pleasure as well as procreation. But I don't think that even now, at 7, it would occur to her to say she wanted to have sex with someone. I don't know but it sounds to me like she's just been watching R rated movies or something.


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## jeminijad (Mar 27, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jessy1019* 
Wow are people jumping to some conclusions!

It could very well be that she's being raised in a sex-positive household, the same as my daughter is. My daughter is 6.5 and has known what sex is -- and that it's for both pleasure AND reproduction -- since she was 3ish. She's made, "I'm going to have sex with ____" comments to us before, and we always explained that before you go through puberty, your body won't really be able to enjoy sex. If I were you, OP, I'd just assume that her parents explained sex as fun & babies but didn't think to say that it's not really pleasurable for children.

The spanking comment wouldn't freak me out, either. I could totally see one of our friends saying something like that around the kids. Not everyone thinks it's necessary to be tight-lipped around their kids.

Definitely, give your son some responses so that he doesn't feel so lost if something like this comes up in the future, but don't assume that his friend is being treated inappropriately just because she has knowledge you've chosen not to give your own child.

What _would_ you consider to be possible signs of sexual abuse, then? Precocious sex play is considered to be one by professionals.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AbbieB* 
I think that the way this child seems to be acting is creepy.

On the other hand, as a mother of a 5 year old DD, a lot of it seems normal too.

DD knows about sex, and could completely explain it to you. She also has some lingering misconceptions (like kissing=sex) that I have been clarifying so that she will not be saying inappropriate things (like mommy and Daddy were having sex in the kitchen, when what was really happening was we kissed.)

She has seen things on TV or movies, which I thought was tame, but she has pieced together. I really never thought of FRIENDS as being racy, until DD started repeating stuff.

I have been horrified by DD flashing me her butt or her vulva (gross!) because she thinks it's funny. I have seen her get her Barbies naked and let them "get pregnant". (One night Ken was laying under 2 or 3 Barbies at one time...it was hard not to laugh. She also builds them block walls so that nobody can see them "being private".) She also moves her body in, to my adult eyes, suggestive ways. But then I watch the Backyardigan dance she is imitating and realize it's innocent.

Yes I can agree with all of the above. Our 5 year old DD also knows about sex and has known for some time. She doesn't flash but I wouldn't freak out if she did. She doesn't play sex with her dolls but I am expecting that and am not peeved by it. The point, however, is that this girl is making _adult_-like sexual advances. That sends up a major red flag.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
The point, however, is that this girl is making _adult_-like sexual advances.

How so? The OP has mentioned sexual poses, which could mean anything, and yesterday I saw three little girls, including dd, "posing" in a fashion that would usually be considered provocative in this culture. She also mentioned raising her top for some other kids, which was not uncommon when I was a child, and I doubt it's disappeared. She also mentioned the "I want to have sex with you" comment, which could, again, mean almost anything.

I'm honestly not seeing the red flags here that others are.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

To me they sound like immature attempts to copy something someone would see on TV or in the movies, not like adult sexual advances.


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## averlee (Apr 10, 2009)

When I was a preschool teacher, the 4,5,& 6 year old kids in my class said stuff sometimes that made my eyebrows raise- "I wanna make sexy with Leanna," "I'm gonna touch your pee pee when you go wee wee," "My mommy was naked and knocked the christmas tree over and broke my santa," "My dog east his poo," "My dad has to sit down to pee sometimes cause he's tired." Or, "don't go in the playhouse, Chase is having sex in there."


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
How so? The OP has mentioned sexual poses, which could mean anything, and yesterday I saw three little girls, including dd, "posing" in a fashion that would usually be considered provocative in this culture. She also mentioned raising her top for some other kids, which was not uncommon when I was a child, and I doubt it's disappeared. She also mentioned the "I want to have sex with you" comment, which could, again, mean almost anything.

I'm honestly not seeing the red flags here that others are.

When I read the OP I thought "meh, normal stuff" but on reading further she seems too sexualized. Of course it is normal to a degree in small children but it's not just one or two things- she is making sexual advancements, flashing kids, the spanking comment... it all adds up. I was molested as a child and though I didn't take this route it is a common one and I watched my older cousin go through it. Now it may not be abuse I am well aware but still the level to which this is happening and the frequency is worrisome to me because of the consequences.


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

I think the abuse thoughts are jumping to conclusions. There's a million places she could have picked this up from.

You could talk to the parents, but IMO you will do your son a much greater service to keep an open line of communication with him and teach him how to deal with these situations and what you expect from him. You can't stop the world from doing things you don't approve of, just teach your children how to live in it. It happens.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

I'm kind of in the not-so-freaky camp, myself. I've actually made that spanking comment before, kind of tongue-in-cheek when explaining my GD stance, and I could see my kids accidentally overhearing it, though I always try not to let them hear me talk like that.

And I have a niece who would totally do something like the posing, or lifting up her shirt. And I kind of remember her even making little comments about sex. She didn't even watch that much TV, but she's what I would call "socially gifted", and she is really good at picking up on expressions, poses, body language, etc, and mimicking it.

So, I guess I'd tell the mom, but not the school.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama* 
I think the abuse thoughts are jumping to conclusions. There's a million places she could have picked this up from.

You could talk to the parents, but IMO you will do your son a much greater service to keep an open line of communication with him and teach him how to deal with these situations and what you expect from him. You can't stop the world from doing things you don't approve of, just teach your children how to live in it. It happens.

Yes I agree. But still when your child is getting unwanted sexual advances and it is making them uncomfortable it just seems like more should be said/done then "oh it happens". Even for little kids it can be a big deal. I wonder how this thread would be going if it was the OP's son making these advances towards a little girl.

Again it may not be abuse. I wouldn't be surprised either way. But let's not deny her behavior is a sign. I would feel awful if I just brushed it off and didn't keep my eyes open or tell her mom about it conversation (not in accusation) only to find out there was abuse. I'm more worried about the little girl. It's just always a good idea to veer on the side of caution. But no I wouldn't go calling the cops or watching them through their windows or anything.


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## Serenyd (Jan 6, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 

WORST case scenario...something not right is going on in her life, which is exposing her to ideas she is supposed to be too young to even be thinking about in those terms.

after you explained the situation better that was my thought ... often times little girls who act over-sexualized at a young age have a good reason ... use your discretion but it is a possibility CPS needs to get involved. I didn't want to say that but I feel like it needs to be brought up. My DP's mom used to work with abused kids and I'm a nurse, so I'm not just speaking based on things I've seen on TV.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Haven't read the whole thread, but maybe she's been t0old that sex is something that people who love each other very much do? Or that it's a special sort of hugging and kissing? And all it means is that she likes him?

I'd go with that and tell her that sex is for adults and that when kids like people they give hugs (assuming your ds wouldn't mind being hugged by a friend).


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

You know...maybe I just don't know, because I don't have a five year old. I would trust better, the judgement of the mamas with girls in that range...but man, this seems really crazy to me. I had no idea this was what five year olds were "up to".


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

It all seems normal to me.

At the age of 5 I played "husband and wife" and it actually was sexual. It was innocent and I have no idea where I learned it (not at home, I lived with my uber-christian single grandmother). It had no lasting effects on me, and I did not go on to molest my younger siblings, as some have commented that this little girl might do.







:


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amylcd* 
It had no lasting effects on me, and I did not go on to molest my younger siblings, as some have commented that this little girl might do.







:

Woah! How did I miss that comment??? Waaay off base. If that were the case wouldn't we all or at least 99% of us be child molesters?







:


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## boatbaby (Aug 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
So, after walking away from this thread for the afternoon and thinking...I think the little girl probably doesn't have anyone around safegaurding her innocence...she probably watches way too much TV and is privy to adult conversations she shouldn't be...I think it's absolutely tragic...just, unspeakable, that this child is too busy tryin to be sexy, to play out the rest of her childhood. I'm sure she's pieced things together, as another PP said, and says these things because no one treats her like a child at home and she equates "grown up" with "sexual" - ugh.

As the mother of a DD, I'm just so disheartened. What the hell is wrong with us? What has happened to our culture, that this is where we've landed.

This is why my house is a no tv house. This is why my children will be homeschooled in a coop, this is why we're buying a house in the country...people have said to me, "You know, you can't hide form the world" and I always become defensive and say "nono it's not to HIDE" - but you know what? I don't think I have any reason to feel ashamed, of my desire to hide away from this crap. I refuse to accept a reality, where my child is going to be having raunchy conversations with other five year olds about sex. I refuse to accept a reality, in which ten year olds are having sex and young girls are telling each other that their parents don't want them wearin tube tops because they think their DDs stomach is ugly. I won't acept it, I won't be a part of it and your damn right, that I'm going to hide my precious daughter away in the woods somewhere, to give her the childhood she deserves.

GEEEEZ!! I'm just steaming mad right now...I'm steaming mad, that simply being exposed to the culture of my people, is so corrupting to youth as this. We've known that when we had a family, we would do our best to try and carve out a little corner of the earth for ourselves..not even to prtend away the world...just to create a buffer, to create a reality which is gentle, slower and more..well, freakin' NORMAL, than the reality that is being pushed on people these days....today, I have been strengthened in my conviction...I am more sure now, than ever, that this is what we need to do.

I'm just sickened, by what some of you have shown me on this thread....I had NO idea how bad things have become in some places. WHAT ARE WE DOING to our children???

OP....what are you thinking?? Maybe a letter? Are you worried at all about the parents getting angry at this girl? I'd hate for her to be in trouble...









You rock. I heart you. And you are not crazy for carving a safe, normal, niche of pure childhood for your little ones.
We're doing the same thing, just afloat rather than on land.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
You know...maybe I just don't know, because I don't have a five year old. I would trust better, the judgement of the mamas with girls in that range...but man, this seems really crazy to me. I had no idea this was what five year olds were "up to".

When I was around 5 or 6 I had a friend of the same age who was really pressuring me to do some things sexually I didn't want to. And these were very adult things that went far beyond just talk or touching. So would I say it is normal in the sense the kids are aware of sex and try and mimic it and have since the beginning of time? Yup, it's normal. But there are certain degrees, IMO. Some levels of this sort of thing are just not ok though in general it is "normal"









For example- it is normal for a 5 year old girl to want to look pretty or even sexy. But is it ok for a 5 year old girl to wear a mini skirt and a tube top? A padded bikini top? Full on makeup? I am guessing we're all going to have different standards for "dress up" and when dress up is no longer dress up but the norm.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
Yes I can agree with all of the above. Our 5 year old DD also knows about sex and has known for some time. She doesn't flash but I wouldn't freak out if she did. She doesn't play sex with her dolls but I am expecting that and am not peeved by it. The point, however, is that this girl is making _adult_-like sexual advances. That sends up a major red flag.

THIS is where I am coming from.

There is something that is just not right in this situation. This girl is left to babysit her (BARELY) 2 year old brother outside on a very busy road. There are a lot of red flag behaviors from this family.

I am completely open with my son about sex

Funny story-
When DS was 4 and I first explained sex to him, I told him that a Man puts his penis in a Woman's vagina, and that is called having sex.
He asked me 'how did Dad get a new penis after he put his in your vagina??'


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
Yes I agree. But still when your child is getting unwanted sexual advances and it is making them uncomfortable it just seems like more should be said/done then "oh it happens". Even for little kids it can be a big deal. *I wonder how this thread would be going if it was the OP's son making these advances towards a little girl.
*
Again it may not be abuse. I wouldn't be surprised either way. But let's not deny her behavior is a sign. I would feel awful if I just brushed it off and didn't keep my eyes open or tell her mom about it conversation (not in accusation) only to find out there was abuse. I'm more worried about the little girl. It's just always a good idea to veer on the side of caution. But no I wouldn't go calling the cops or watching them through their windows or anything.

I toatally agree with this. At first, he just told us that she tried to kiss him. I actually told him 'She is VERY pretty girl, you should be flattered that she tried to kiss you, not embarrassed'






















I NEVER would have said that to him if he were a girl...never. I just couldn't even believe myself


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *averlee* 
When I was a preschool teacher, the 4,5,& 6 year old kids in my class said stuff sometimes that made my eyebrows raise- "I wanna make sexy with Leanna," "I'm gonna touch your pee pee when you go wee wee," "My mommy was naked and knocked the christmas tree over and broke my santa," "My dog east his poo," "My dad has to sit down to pee sometimes cause he's tired." Or, "don't go in the playhouse, Chase is having sex in there."

But did you ever hear anything like 'Spanking is not okay unless it is adults in the bedroom'?

Because THAT is what seems abnormal to me at this point. A kid doesn't hear that on TV


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

You don't think you'd hear that on TV? It sounds like it could have come off Family Guy to me.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
You don't think you'd hear that on TV? It sounds like it could have come off Family Guy to me.

That is EXACTLY what I was going to say!


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
You don't think you'd hear that on TV? It sounds like it could have come off Family Guy to me.

Well, that is a relief. I hope she did hear it on tv.

IDK, tho, there are alot of red flags going up...including that she is left to watch her brother while he is outside, and he is barely 2. We live on a VERY busy road.
I have found him wandering in MY driveway numerous times, completely alone!
It really worries me that someone is going to call CSD thinking it is MY kid (I have a 18 month boy) and report me. How would I prove that it wasn't my son??
I think it is time to have a little chat with this family. I am scared that I am going to get the girl in trouble, though.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

It seems like if she were being sexually abused, she wouldn't say "unless it's ADULTS in the bedroom." She'd say, "Unless it's in the bedroom" because she'd include children. I don't know, it really sounds just like a child who watches grown up TV and movies who is playing grown up. It sounds like she isn't well supervised though, if she's left alone to watch a child that young.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
Well, that is a relief. I hope she did hear it on tv.

IDK, tho, there are alot of red flags going up...including that she is left to watch her brother while he is outside, and he is barely 2. We live on a VERY busy road.
I have found him wandering in MY driveway numerous times, completely alone!
It really worries me that someone is going to call CSD thinking it is MY kid (I have a 18 month boy) and report me. How would I prove that it wasn't my son??
I think it is time to have a little chat with this family. I am scared that I am going to get the girl in trouble, though.

We are in a similar situation minus the sex. We have a neighbor boy who is about 5 or 6 and is charged with watching his younger bro who is still in diapers. We live next to a very busy street as well. Once DH was walking out to our car and he saw the little bro wandering in the street. He dropped everything and ran and got him. We live in an apartment complex so he had to get through the gate that is through the parking lot (gate is alway open). The other day the 5 year old was throwing rocks at our house (this was after he threw one and hit a passing car. That wasn't pretty!) and I suggested to DH he go and talk to his parents. DH thought about it for a minute and then said "you know I would but I'm afraid his father would beat him" And he's right







It's a tough situation


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## HarperRose (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
We are in a similar situation minus the sex. We have a neighbor boy who is about 5 or 6 and is charged with watching his younger bro who is still in diapers. We live next to a very busy street as well. Once DH was walking out to our car and he saw the little bro wandering in the street. He dropped everything and ran and got him. We live in an apartment complex so he had to get through the gate that is through the parking lot (gate is alway open). The other day the 5 year old was throwing rocks at our house (this was after he threw one and hit a passing car. That wasn't pretty!) and I suggested to DH he go and talk to his parents. DH thought about it for a minute and then said "you know I would but I'm afraid his father would beat him" And he's right







It's a tough situation









That is so tragically sad for all of the kids.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
But did you ever hear anything like 'Spanking is not okay unless it is adults in the bedroom'?

Because THAT is what seems abnormal to me at this point. A kid doesn't hear that on TV

A kid could totally hear that on tv. She could have overheard an adult conversation - or even off-the-cuff flip remark. I know people who say that kind of thing when they're kidding around, and they don't necessarily make sure there are no kids in earshot. I personally think it's inappropriate for little kids to hear, but not everyone censors that carefully (for that matter, I let my kids overhear things that many parents wouldn't...just not of a sexual nature). That particular comment didn't even raise my eyebrows - less than the rest of it, honestly.

And, yes - my reaction would be the same if it were a boy talking to a girl. I've had similar things go on with other kids and dd. And, in at least one instance, the inappropriate comments/behaviour came from the little boy watching Family Guy with his babysitter.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

The fact that the 2 year old isn't supervised, except by his big sister, bothers me more than any of the rest of it. DD often offers to supervise ds2 outside, and there's just no way. He's almost 4, not 2, but he has no impulse control, and no sense of safety around cars. It's just not going to happen...and I'm more laidback than many about my kids playing outside.


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## Maluhia (Jun 24, 2007)

My 4 year old DD is a nudist and thinks it's funny to flash her "belly" at a boy, she's thought it up all on her own and it's not sexual for her.....

I'd be much more concerned about the other signs


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
He asked me 'how did Dad get a new penis after he put his in your vagina??'
























: Um, is he clear on that now, or is that part of why the idea of sex upset him so much?

And, yes, having now read the rest of the thread, the overall pattern of behavior is concerning.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

You: Excuse me, but who is watching your children when they play outside?
Neighbor: 5yearold
You: I was afraid of that, this is a busy road and a 5 year old isn't safe watching herself, let alone a 2 year old. I don't want my kids seeing your kids get hurt so you need to supervise them better.

Make it all about the mom not doing her job. Don't talk about the 5 year old not supervising her brother well enough just that she shouldn't be in charge of supervising her brother at all.

But really, if you're worried she'll get beaten for not doing a job she shouldn't have been given in the first place--call CPS.


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## spicyrock (Apr 11, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 

But really, if you're worried she'll get beaten for not doing a job she shouldn't have been given in the first place--call CPS.

It doesn't sound like she will get beaten. Spanking isn't okay, remember? Unless it's adults in the bedroom...

I just wanted to share a personal story, before anyone calls schools or cps or the neighborhood watch. When I was probably about six or seven I "played doctor" with the neighborhood kids. All of us were willing participants (if anything, I was one of the more reluctant kids) engaging in what I now realize is totally normal exploratory play. This went on for a couple of weeks, and took place in a variety of ways, until one of the girls felt guilty and told her mom. My mom was a pot-smoking hippie and poor, and when all of the neighborhood moms got together to freak out about what had been going on, she wasn't invited to the party. Guess who got blamed for the whole thing? Me. They all decided that I was oversexed and probably abused. I became the neighborhood social pariah. They called the school, and all of my teachers, one by one, started asking me if I was being abused by my stepfather. Everyone- the whole town, adults and children- found out. My mom was the only person who assured me that sex play was normal and that she had done it too, and so had all of my teachers and everyone else, and they were just making a big deal out of it because they wanted to point fingers. The experience was so utterly humiliating that I moved to another town and deemed this to be my biggest, deepest, darkest secret until I was in my twenties.


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## LauraN (May 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spicyrock* 
It doesn't sound like she will get beaten. Spanking isn't okay, remember? Unless it's adults in the bedroom...

I just wanted to share a personal story, before anyone calls schools or cps or the neighborhood watch. When I was probably about six or seven I "played doctor" with the neighborhood kids. All of us were willing participants (if anything, I was one of the more reluctant kids) engaging in what I now realize is totally normal exploratory play. This went on for a couple of weeks, and took place in a variety of ways, until one of the girls felt guilty and told her mom. My mom was a pot-smoking hippie and poor, and when all of the neighborhood moms got together to freak out about what had been going on, she wasn't invited to the party. Guess who got blamed for the whole thing? Me. They all decided that I was oversexed and probably abused. I became the neighborhood social pariah. They called the school, and all of my teachers, one by one, started asking me if I was being abused by my stepfather. Everyone- the whole town, adults and children- found out. My mom was the only person who assured me that sex play was normal and that she had done it too, and so had all of my teachers and everyone else, and they were just making a big deal out of it because they wanted to point fingers. The experience was so utterly humiliating that I moved to another town and deemed this to be my biggest, deepest, darkest secret until I was in my twenties.

This is what I worry about. I really don't think anything described here is abnormal. Well, except for the two yr old outside w/ no adult. Definitely stuff that gets picked up from TV. And you know, I don't even think this sort of behavior in any way means that children are too precocious or have lost their innocence.


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## Adsullata (Dec 22, 2008)

So, I haven't finished reading all the replies yet, but I had to post.

OP, each individual thing/incident you mention maybe by itself _could_ be brushed off especially if you just want to run from it, but put it all together and it's definitely red flags all over the place.

This is how sex abuse happens. It's so very insidious and can seep into our children's lives without us being aware, _if we do not pay attention to the oh so subtle signs_. Ten year olds having sex? Five years old acting *sexy*??? I would take that seriously, even if it turns out to be nothing more than a mix-up of terminology, better safe than sorry, because sorry in these instances can mean a child has been harmed.

IMO, somebody in your neighborhood is a sex abuser. All it takes is one person to abuse one child. That child will then *teach* other children and so on and so on. What's more is that it doesn't take an *older* adult or child, a younger child that has suffered abuse will pass that *knowledge* onto older children and that is still abuse. How do I know this? This happened in a neighborhood I lived in and one of the little girls that was a victim went on to have sex with other kids in the 4th and 5th grade. That is NOT HEALTHY OR NORMAL.

Even if it has not risen to the level of physical contact, exposure to sexual images or language is abusive because it sets a child up for the next step and the next...







:

I felt physically sick reading some of the posts about what is happening in our neighborhoods. If somebody gives you the creeps, _please please listen to that voice!!_ There is a very good reason we get those feelings and it is for the protection of ourselves and our family.

Please do not turn your back on this and pretend it's not there- it won't go away, trust me. All of our children desperately need for all of us to keep a sharp eye out for these kinds of behaviors and see it for what it is. Dismissing it as, oh, it's just an older sibling or older neighborhood child they overheard talking or it's too much tv. There's a reason why you posted beyond having to have that conversation with your lo. It's because this bothered you on a deep level and that little voice inside you is speaking truth- please listen. If we listen to those truths and speak them, it is the only real chance we have to successfully combat abuse.

ETA: You don't necessarily have to call the school or cps, but I would listen and watch _very_ carefully so you can protect your son. If you haven't already, I highly suggest reading Protecting the Gift.

Also, a lot of people dismissed what was happening in that neighborhood I mentioned because the signs were very similar to what the OP describes and sort of under the radar. But the end result was many, many children being hurt and no one listening for a very long time. There is a difference between healthy age-appropriate sexual information and children exhibiting sexualized behavior such as the OP has described.

And, spicyrock, do you know for certain that none of the children involved had been abused and instigated it? Because what you describe is often a common way for sex abuse to spread among children. It would also be very common for the child that was abused to be pointing the finger at someone else and saying quite loudly it was you and not him/her.

Once more edit: my apologies for being so lengthy and verbose.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

I agree that any ONE of the things described would not having me freaking out...I mean, I remember playing "house" as a child...its just ALL the things together that bother me - the fact that she watches her 2 yo brother alone is icing on the cake...I mean, REALLY? A two year old? Any one of them might be something someone elses child here has done, etc....but all of them together, taken into consideration at once...I would still be uncomfortable and worried about this girl.

Maybe it's nothing....but then, I wonder, when I was growing up, how many teachers, neighbors, etc saw in ME the sure signs of something not right at home...and brushed it off with "maybe it's nothing"? I don't know, all I know, is that it took until I was 16-17 for CPS to come to our home. My step dad moved in when I was eight. Do the math. There is no way, that at some point in time, SOMEONE didn't notice that something wasn't right. It's always something, that makes it easy to brush it off...in my case a charming mother and desirable lifestyle....for this girl...what? I'm not saying she's definitely being abused...maybe she's not. But maybe she is...she sure sounds to me lik e*something* isn't right.

As many of you who say this is normal....I jsut can't believe that it is. House, is normal for young kids...exploring bodies, being sexually curious...that is normal. This little girls situation doesn't seem normal to me.

Again, I would defer to those mamas who *do* have five year olds...because I think they are much better judges, but I'm disheartened to think, that this is what I have to look forward to in four years...my DD flashing people her chest, propositioning boys in the nieghborhood for sex acts and explaining that "spanking is for adults only - in the bedroom". Dressing sexy and strutting around like a model - I mean, REALLY, is this REALLY what I'm going to be looking at, in four years time? Because you guys keep saying "it's normal, it's normal..."


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeminijad* 
What _would_ you consider to be possible signs of sexual abuse, then? Precocious sex play is considered to be one by professionals.

I don't think any of the things mentioned here constitute "precocious sex play". They sound like normal 5-year old things to me, and things my own (never abused) daughter might say or do. There are lots of explanations for this little girl's behavior that don't involve her being treated in appropriately, and I think it's ridiculous when people jump to the most shocking conclusion with little evidence.

I do agree that she shouldn't be left to supervise her younger brother if they're not in a safe area, but that's the only concerning thing in this entire post.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
How so? The OP has mentioned sexual poses, which could mean anything, and yesterday I saw three little girls, including dd, "posing" in a fashion that would usually be considered provocative in this culture. She also mentioned raising her top for some other kids, which was not uncommon when I was a child, and I doubt it's disappeared. She also mentioned the "I want to have sex with you" comment, which could, again, mean almost anything.

I'm honestly not seeing the red flags here that others are.

I'm with Storm Bride on this. I have two girls.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fuamami* 
I'm kind of in the not-so-freaky camp, myself. I've actually made that spanking comment before, kind of tongue-in-cheek when explaining my GD stance, and I could see my kids accidentally overhearing it, though I always try not to let them hear me talk like that.

And I have a niece who would totally do something like the posing, or lifting up her shirt. And I kind of remember her even making little comments about sex. She didn't even watch that much TV, but she's what I would call "socially gifted", and she is really good at picking up on expressions, poses, body language, etc, and mimicking it.

So, I guess I'd tell the mom, but not the school.

Why is the shirt-lifting being described by some as flashing anyway? She is 5, there is nothing to flash. Are we now expected to tut tut about a 5 year old's chest?


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## columbusmomma (Oct 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama* 
I was going to say that it was probably nothing: my 6yo once told my husband and me to stop having sex. We were kissing in a doorway. Even though he knew all about the "facts of life" he had somehow conflated the word "sex" with anything to do with hugging and kissing. So your op seemed like it could have an innocent explanation.

But the spanking comment? That's....unusual, to say the least. I would talk to the mother.

My 6 year old asked me if DH and I have sex. I said what does that mean? He said kissing......
unfortunately this situation doesn't sound like this "innocent" and I agree that talking with the parents would be a good idea!!


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

My daughter has recently become a bit modest, but before that she would flash without thinking anything of it. She wouldn't even consider it sexual.

And she's seen commercials with "fancy ladies" as she calls them strutting around. I don't think I've ever seen her copy them, but I don't think it would be weird if she did. She described "fancy ladies" enough for me to understand that she's seen it.

I remember our little neighbor strutting around and singing very provocatively, "Don't cha wish your girlfriend would freak like me." And her mom saying, "That's it. Less TV for you!" But she obviously heard it and was dancing and singing like that. Within about two minutes of the mom making a nasty comment about me letting my dd wear a tank top or something she thought was provocative. My only thought was that it was good timing.

AND, if she watched the Family Guy, and if a line from it made me and/or her dad laugh, she would repeat it to anyone and everyone to see if it made anyone else laugh.


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## jeminijad (Mar 27, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
Maybe it's nothing....but then, I wonder, when I was growing up, how many teachers, neighbors, etc saw in ME the sure signs of something not right at home...and brushed it off with "maybe it's nothing"? I don't know, all I know, is that it took until I was 16-17 for CPS to come to our home. My step dad moved in when I was eight. Do the math. There is no way, that at some point in time, SOMEONE didn't notice that something wasn't right. It's always something, that makes it easy to brush it off...in my case a charming mother and desirable lifestyle....for this girl...what? I'm not saying she's definitely being abused...maybe she's not. But maybe she is...she sure sounds to me lik e*something* isn't right.

As many of you who say this is normal....I jsut can't believe that it is. House, is normal for young kids...exploring bodies, being sexually curious...that is normal. This little girls situation doesn't seem normal to me.

Again, I would defer to those mamas who *do* have five year olds...because I think they are much better judges, but I'm disheartened to think, that this is what I have to look forward to in four years...my DD flashing people her chest, propositioning boys in the nieghborhood for sex acts and explaining that "spanking is for adults only - in the bedroom". Dressing sexy and strutting around like a model - I mean, REALLY, is this REALLY what I'm going to be looking at, in four years time? Because you guys keep saying "it's normal, it's normal..."

This!

My 5 year old friends and I did not behave like this. Sex just didn't come up. Really.

What a shame if something terrible is going on and the pervasiveness of sex in our culture makes the warning signs seem "normal."


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## Teenytoona (Jun 13, 2005)

Quote:

But not little girl pretty...*more like a miniature super model*. And she flaunts herself around. In fact, I just remembered that last weekend I thought I saw her lifting her bikini top up ( in a *VERY seductive way...like a stripper!*)
Bolding mine.

What I bolded were the two warning signs to me. The looks because I've heard of pedophiles to "justify" their actions due to a "mature" looking child. And the fact that she's not just being goofy and lifting her shirt (like alot of little girls do), but she's doing it in a seductive/stripper type way is not normal five year old play.

I'm saying this also as I know adults who as children, _did have sex this young with other kids that age_, and there was sexual abuse among those children, the kids learned it from adults. That's why the warning flag here.

Sex positive is teaching older children/teens/young adults that their sexuality is not taken from them (for example: debunking the trembling scared virgin/well seasoned conquering man archetype) but theirs to own and learn about and grow from, something that is shared freely with a respectful partner. Sex positive is NOT teaching a child how to act like a man's ideal stripper. Big difference in the two. HUGE.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
Why is the shirt-lifting being described by some as flashing anyway? She is 5, there is nothing to flash. Are we now expected to tut tut about a 5 year old's chest?

NO!

THIS is what bothers me so much about discussions like this...all of the sudden, the people who are shocked by something like this, become the "prudish busy bodies who are being nosey and making big deals out of nothing and who are probably really fridgid and making sexual a childs body when it's NOT!" - I have a wonderful and healthy sexual relatipnship with my DH, sex is a free and easy subject in my household and bodies are NOT shameful here.

I do NOT "tut tut" a childs body...in fact, I LOVE naked children. NOTHING is more beautiful to me, than the naked three/four/ five year old, dancing through the sprinklers in her yard, completely unaware of the fact that anyone else might be wishing she put some clothes on. I love a child, being okay with their body....I see a three year old, in naked defiance...running wild and free...and I think to myself "God, mama of this child, lethim be free and naked, let him live without body shame and self concsious modesty as long as he can!" - I truly, truly do not "tut tut" or think a childs body is sexual and therefore should be hidden....BUT

I can't wrap my head around a five year old little girl, propositioning a neighborhood boy for sex, AND pulling up her bikini top in a seductive (not playful) manner AND talking about "spanking in the bedroom" AND strutting like a super model ALL IN a neighborhood where, apparently, ten year olds are having sex AND WHILE she is the babysitter for her two year old brother. If she's in charge of watching her two year old sibling...who is in charge of watching HER? I just think that everything combined....the chances are a little higher, that this revealing her flat, childs chest...MAY BE less about a defiant act of learned-on-TV sexual behavior, so much as maybe behavior that is encouraged by saaaay, a creepy uncle or neighbor. I mean, someone doesn't HAVE to be touching her (yet) for them to be planting seeds. THe OP described this girl as being one of those little girls who is very pretty, in a "tiny super model" kind of way. You've seen the young girls like this...strikingly beautiful girls, who have very "super model-ish" features, like those little beauty queens, who look like pint sized, grown women.

I think bodies are beautiful. I remember when I was in kidergarten, we would go on the monkey bars and taunt the boys and when they came close, we would quickly flip upside down, so our undies would show and then taunt them louder "Haha! Stupid boys!! HAHAH!" and they would be grossed out and run away and we would shake our little tushes at them....somehow, this panty power we had, was thrilling to us. We were way too little to understand that this was the beginning of our fist awareness of our own sexuality, what it ment to us and the effect it had on the opposite sex, which would one day become so impotant to us....but we didn't care. All we knew, was we "fought" the boys, because, obviously boys were gross, because they thought that we were gross...and somehow our panties were like nerve gas to them....it was a game!

This little girl is not playing games...she is interacting in a sexual way with her peers, she is trying t oattract sexual attention...she is obviously NOT treated liket eh kid she is, at home, if she is put in charge of the two year old sibling...so, I am led to wonder, in what other ways, is this child being treated like an adult? What if she struts her little "pint sized super model" self, around the wrong uncle...or a neighbor who is dangerous...I mean, would anyone notice she was gone, if she wandered ito the lawn of the guy who lives across the street and has been watching her strutting, lifting up her shirt, etc...? What about these ten year olds in the neighborhood having sex? What if she propositioned ONE OF THEM?

All I'm saying is....I'm less worried about a kid who is playing "yucky boys, let's 'get them' with our panties!" or a kid who is flashing her little flat chest...who has involved parents at home keeping an eye on her, meeting her sexual curiosity with information that fits with age appropriate sexual values....explaining that sex is not something you do with the six year old neighbor. I'm less worried about a kid displaying this behavior, who has parents at home who care and are involved....this girl is left alone to watch her two year old brother...anyone want to put money down, on how supportive and instructive her parents are, in her sexual play?

Again...maybe this is so shocking to me, becase I have a one year old, because I'm not ready for her to start growing up and knowing what sex is...maybe that's it. Again, I respect SO MUCH the input of you mamas who I *know* care about protecting your own five year olds, who say this is normal...but when I think back to my 5/6/7 year old friends and I and the sx play we were involved in...it wasn't like this. It was big groups of us, someone acting as officiant and marrying us off in pairs...then we had to play house and went under the playground platforms and that was our "house"...you know? It was all about that...it wasn't SEXY. It wasn't RAUNCHY...no one knew anything about seducing a boy with sexy body movements and sex talk. I don't know. Ugh.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Teenytoona* 
Bolding mine.

What I bolded were the two warning signs to me. The looks because I've heard of pedophiles to "justify" their actions due to a "mature" looking child. And the fact that she's not just being goofy and lifting her shirt (like alot of little girls do), but she's doing it in a seductive/stripper type way is not normal five year old play.

I'm saying this also as I know adults who as children, _did have sex this young with other kids that age_, and there was sexual abuse among those children, the kids learned it from adults. That's why the warning flag here.

*Sex positive is teaching older children/teens/young adults that their sexuality is not taken from them (for example: debunking the trembling scared virgin/well seasoned conquering man archetype) but theirs to own and learn about and grow from, something that is shared freely with a respectful partner. Sex positive is NOT teaching a child how to act like a man's ideal stripper. Big difference in the two. HUGE*.

Thank you thank you thank you.....I tell me DH all the time, when he starts in with "well my DD is going into a tower when she turns 13, I can't cope with boyfriends, how can I let me little girlout of my sight!" - I tell him...okay, but that's not creating a sexually empowered young woman! To which he replies...practically pale and shaking, as our beautiful one year old chews on a piece of carrot, looking at him with a blank, cutesy stare...."She is not going to be sexually ANYTHING!" Sexually EMPOWERED!!???"

And I say, yes, here's why: "When you act as if her sexuality is something for you to gaurd with an iron fist, against all of these "takers" of sex out there..you turn it into a war for her sex, basically. The idea that the girls sexuality is something for the father to gaurd, until a man "mighty" enough is deemed worthy to come and take it from the father, into his posession, creates a young girl, who doesn' suppose that she is supposed to have any say in her sexuality..." - this girl, is the trembling virgin.

I don't ever want my darling girl, to "lose" her virginity. I don't want her virginity "taken", ether...as much as I also don't want it given away. I want it to be exchanged for something. I want her first sexual exchange, to be a willing act, that is exciting and meaningful to her...I don't NEED it to be after she's 18, or after she's married...I wouldn't even WANT her to wait until she was married, to have sex, unless that was her true true desire. I want her sexuality to be powerful within her, I want her to feel sexually powerful and I want her sexual space and time to feel sacred. I want her to see her sexuality, not as a prize, for the mightiest....but the gift, of her own, which she can decide to give to the young man who touches her heart in such a way that he has EARNED it. I want her to own who she is, sexually.

I want my girl, to be FIERCE in her girlhood....I want my son, if I have one, to be FIERCE also in his boyhood...and to also be a sexually empowered human...NOT in the sense that many young men think they are, these days. I want my son, to respect the exchange...to WANT that exchange with a person who is enters into an emotional space with him, that will make it MEAN something.

I'd rather my children, have meaningful sex for the first time at 15....than to have meaningless sex at 18/19/20/after they're married. Maybe you say, fifteen is too young...I would tend to agree...maybe you would say, fifteen year olds CAN'T have meaningful sex...okay, bu they can have tender sex. They can love someone, respect someone...care a great deal, for someone. The exchange can leave them feeling beautiful, cared for...respected. They can look back on it in their older years and recognize how clumsy it was, how immature they were....but still be warmed by the memory of how tender their partner was, how careful and how they both felt scared, but ready and wonderful.

Instead of like how many of us...who look back and think "Why did I think he was so great...why did I let him make me feel like I *had* to...why didn't I realize, that having sex, because you're scared he'll stop liking you, wasn't a good reason" - I know too many women who had this experience.

Anyway...here I go a'rambling again..


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## mysticmomma (Feb 8, 2005)

I'd be sure to bring up what he said about the 10 year olds having sex.


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## Teenytoona (Jun 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
Thank you thank you thank you.....I tell me DH all the time, when he starts in with "well my DD is going into a tower when she turns 13, I can't cope with boyfriends, how can I let me little girlout of my sight!" - I tell him...okay, but that's not creating a sexually empowered young woman! To which he replies...practically pale and shaking, as our beautiful one year old chews on a piece of carrot, looking at him with a blank, cutesy stare...."She is not going to be sexually ANYTHING!" Sexually EMPOWERED!!???"

And I say, yes, here's why: "When you act as if her sexuality is something for you to gaurd with an iron fist, against all of these "takers" of sex out there..you turn it into a war for her sex, basically. The idea that the girls sexuality is something for the father to gaurd, until a man "mighty" enough is deemed worthy to come and take it from the father, into his posession, creates a young girl, who doesn' suppose that she is supposed to have any say in her sexuality..." - this girl, is the trembling virgin.

I don't ever want my darling girl, to "lose" her virginity. I don't want her virginity "taken", ether...as much as I also don't want it given away. I want it to be exchanged for something. I want her first sexual exchange, to be a willing act, that is exciting and meaningful to her...I don't NEED it to be after she's 18, or after she's married...I wouldn't even WANT her to wait until she was married, to have sex, unless that was her true true desire. I want her sexuality to be powerful within her, I want her to feel sexually powerful and I want her sexual space and time to feel sacred. I want her to see her sexuality, not as a prize, for the mightiest....but the gift, of her own, which she can decide to give to the young man who touches her heart in such a way that he has EARNED it. I want her to own who she is, sexually.

I want my girl, to be FIERCE in her girlhood....I want my son, if I have one, to be FIERCE also in his boyhood...and to also be a sexually empowered human...NOT in the sense that many young men think they are, these days. I want my son, to respect the exchange...to WANT that exchange with a person who is enters into an emotional space with him, that will make it MEAN something.

I'd rather my children, have meaningful sex for the first time at 15....than to have meaningless sex at 18/19/20/after they're married. Maybe you say, fifteen is too young...I would tend to agree...maybe you would say, fifteen year olds CAN'T have meaningful sex...okay, bu they can have tender sex. They can love someone, respect someone...care a great deal, for someone. The exchange can leave them feeling beautiful, cared for...respected. They can look back on it in their older years and recognize how clumsy it was, how immature they were....but still be warmed by the memory of how tender their partner was, how careful and how they both felt scared, but ready and wonderful.

Instead of like how many of us...who look back and think "Why did I think he was so great...why did I let him make me feel like I *had* to...why didn't I realize, that having sex, because you're scared he'll stop liking you, wasn't a good reason" - I know too many women who had this experience.

Anyway...here I go a'rambling again..


I like your ramblin'! Yes yes yes to everything you've said here!


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## KristaDJ (May 30, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
NO!

All I'm saying is....I'm less worried about a kid who is playing "yucky boys, let's 'get them' with our panties!" or a kid who is flashing her little flat chest...who has involved parents at home keeping an eye on her, meeting her sexual curiosity with information that fits with age appropriate sexual values....explaining that sex is not something you do with the six year old neighbor. I'm less worried about a kid displaying this behavior, who has parents at home who care and are involved....this girl is left alone to watch her two year old brother...anyone want to put money down, on how supportive and instructive her parents are, in her sexual play?

I respect SO MUCH the input of you mamas who I *know* care about protecting your own five year olds, who say this is normal...but when I think back to my 5/6/7 year old friends and I and the sx play we were involved in...it wasn't like this. .

Totally agree on the first part and though I may get flamed for my thoughts on the second part here they are: Look at what else our society considers normal; spanking children, leaving tiny babies in cribs to scream all alone, consenting to medical procedures with no information, having males babies' genitals sliced etc, etc.... Just because it may be "typical" and normal in today's world for young children to engage in sex play and mimic overtly sexual adult behavior that DOES. NOT. MAKE. IT. HEALTHY.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
Why is the shirt-lifting being described by some as flashing anyway? She is 5, there is nothing to flash. Are we now expected to tut tut about a 5 year old's chest?

It wasn't that she was showing her chest but HOW she was doing it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
THIS is what bothers me so much about discussions like this...all of the sudden, the people who are shocked by something like this, become the "prudish busy bodies who are being nosey and making big deals out of nothing and who are probably really fridgid and making sexual a childs body when it's NOT!" - I have a wonderful and healthy sexual relatipnship with my DH, sex is a free and easy subject in my household and bodies are NOT shameful here.

I do NOT "tut tut" a childs body

Thank you!!! My mother was also molested like I was but she took a different route- one of shame for sex and the body. I will NEVER do that to my children! It is as much of a disservice as over-sexualization.

Quote:

This little girl is not playing games...she is interacting in a sexual way with her peers, she is trying t oattract sexual attention...she is obviously NOT treated liket eh kid she is, at home, if she is put in charge of the two year old sibling...so, I am led to wonder, in what other ways, is this child being treated like an adult? What if she struts her little "pint sized super model" self, around the wrong uncle...or a neighbor who is dangerous...I mean, would anyone notice she was gone, if she wandered ito the lawn of the guy who lives across the street and has been watching her strutting, lifting up her shirt, etc...? What about these ten year olds in the neighborhood having sex? What if she propositioned ONE OF THEM?

All I'm saying is....I'm less worried about a kid who is playing "yucky boys, let's 'get them' with our panties!" or a kid who is flashing her little flat chest...who has involved parents at home keeping an eye on her, meeting her sexual curiosity with information that fits with age appropriate sexual values....explaining that sex is not something you do with the six year old neighbor. I'm less worried about a kid displaying this behavior, who has parents at home who care and are involved....this girl is left alone to watch her two year old brother...anyone want to put money down, on how supportive and instructive her parents are, in her sexual play?
Exactly this.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Teenytoona*
*Sex positive is teaching older children/teens/young adults that their sexuality is not taken from them (for example: debunking the trembling scared virgin/well seasoned conquering man archetype) but theirs to own and learn about and grow from, something that is shared freely with a respectful partner. Sex positive is NOT teaching a child how to act like a man's ideal stripper. Big difference in the two. HUGE*.

Thank you, Teeny!


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
Thank you thank you thank you.....I tell me DH all the time, when he starts in with "well my DD is going into a tower when she turns 13, I can't cope with boyfriends, how can I let me little girlout of my sight!" - I tell him...okay, but that's not creating a sexually empowered young woman! To which he replies...practically pale and shaking, as our beautiful one year old chews on a piece of carrot, looking at him with a blank, cutesy stare...."She is not going to be sexually ANYTHING!" Sexually EMPOWERED!!???"

And I say, yes, here's why: "When you act as if her sexuality is something for you to gaurd with an iron fist, against all of these "takers" of sex out there..you turn it into a war for her sex, basically. The idea that the girls sexuality is something for the father to gaurd, until a man "mighty" enough is deemed worthy to come and take it from the father, into his posession, creates a young girl, who doesn' suppose that she is supposed to have any say in her sexuality..." - this girl, is the trembling virgin.

I don't ever want my darling girl, to "lose" her virginity. I don't want her virginity "taken", ether...as much as I also don't want it given away. I want it to be exchanged for something. I want her first sexual exchange, to be a willing act, that is exciting and meaningful to her...I don't NEED it to be after she's 18, or after she's married...I wouldn't even WANT her to wait until she was married, to have sex, unless that was her true true desire. I want her sexuality to be powerful within her, I want her to feel sexually powerful and I want her sexual space and time to feel sacred. I want her to see her sexuality, not as a prize, for the mightiest....but the gift, of her own, which she can decide to give to the young man who touches her heart in such a way that he has EARNED it. I want her to own who she is, sexually.

I want my girl, to be FIERCE in her girlhood....I want my son, if I have one, to be FIERCE also in his boyhood...and to also be a sexually empowered human...NOT in the sense that many young men think they are, these days. I want my son, to respect the exchange...to WANT that exchange with a person who is enters into an emotional space with him, that will make it MEAN something.

I'd rather my children, have meaningful sex for the first time at 15....than to have meaningless sex at 18/19/20/after they're married. Maybe you say, fifteen is too young...I would tend to agree...maybe you would say, fifteen year olds CAN'T have meaningful sex...okay, bu they can have tender sex. They can love someone, respect someone...care a great deal, for someone. The exchange can leave them feeling beautiful, cared for...respected. They can look back on it in their older years and recognize how clumsy it was, how immature they were....but still be warmed by the memory of how tender their partner was, how careful and how they both felt scared, but ready and wonderful.

Instead of like how many of us...who look back and think "Why did I think he was so great...why did I let him make me feel like I *had* to...why didn't I realize, that having sex, because you're scared he'll stop liking you, wasn't a good reason" - I know too many women who had this experience.

Anyway...here I go a'rambling again..

Wow. Thank you for wording so elequently my own thoughts about how I want to raise my children, esp DD, to view sexuality and the concept of "virginity." I will likely be stealing your words - because I've tried to explain my thought process on this to my DH and my own mom and couldn't quite find a way to do so.







I agree so much with what you've said!!!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
I can't wrap my head around a five year old little girl, propositioning a neighborhood boy for sex,

Calling this propositioning is putting our adult baggage on it. I've seen this multiple times in this thread. None of us, including the OP, were there when she said it, and none of us know how it was said. Unless the OP left something out, I didn't see/hear anything there that sounded like a proposition. It could have meant anything, including a variant on the "I want to kiss you".

Quote:

AND pulling up her bikini top in a seductive (not playful) manner
Again, this is very subjective. What makes it seductive? As I said earlier, i saw dd and two other little girls in our complex posing in what could be construed as a sexy way. Nobody was looking at it that way, but the body language was there, if one were disposed to see it that way (dd had one hand up by her head, "fluffing" her hairdo, and one knee raised, with her leg kind of across her body - hard to describe, but I've seen it many times, and it's a classic "sexy" pose). I've seen her raise her top in a teasing kind of fashion...she's flirting with the idea of taboos, not with sex.

Quote:

AND talking about "spanking in the bedroom"
This one doesn't even faze me, and I'm kind of surprised at how much it seems to be weighing on most poster's minds. This is totally the kind of thing i hear from kids who watch a lot of tv, have older siblings, and/or have parents who aren't careful about what they say in front of their kids. Particularly with the "adults only" side of it, it just doesn't raise any flags at all.

Quote:

AND strutting like a super model
Again...totally subjective. Some little girls have a very flirty manner about them, whether they know the word sex or have heard of adult spanking or not. If they're also wearing a lot of the common fashions for little girls, they're going to seem like "miniature super models". I've also seen a lot of that when the mom (or an older female sibling/aunt/neighbour) puts a lot of effort into looking attractive.

Quote:

ALL IN a neighborhood where, apparently, ten year olds are having sex
In a neighbourhood where this is happening? I'm not following the thinking here. Kids are having sex younger and younger and have been for a while. Some of that is cultural, and some of it is also probably related to our over sexed culture. It's also not something the OP knows for herself...and I know that, even 25 years ago, lots of people were claiming to be sexually active long before they actually _were_.

Quote:

AND WHILE she is the babysitter for her two year old brother.
This is the single thing that really worries me, personally.

Quote:

....the chances are a little higher, that this revealing her flat, childs chest...MAY BE less about a defiant act of learned-on-TV sexual behavior, so much as maybe behavior that is encouraged by saaaay, a creepy uncle or neighbor.
Honestly, it doesn't strike me as either. I don't see it as defiant at all.

Whoops...deleted farther than I meant to. I can't relate to the "panty power" games at all. My best friends were boys and that whole weird "girls have cooties" thing was never part of my reality at all.

Quote:

This little girl is not playing games...she is interacting in a sexual way with her peers, she is trying t oattract sexual attention
I haven't seen a single thing from the OP that suggests to me that this girl is even aware, on any real level, of what sexual attention _is_. I think there's a _lot_ of adults putting their own perceptions of sexuality on this child.

Quote:

What about these ten year olds in the neighborhood having sex? What if she propositioned ONE OF THEM?
Say what? I remember the younger kids at my school who were having sex (or at least sexual contact...oral, if nothing else) at a young age - 12, not 10. There wasn't one of them who would have taken a 5 year old up on a comment like that...not one. They were interacting with kids their own age, who were at a similar level of sexual development. Being a sexually active 10 year old may be screwed up, but it doesn't automatically make a child a predator.

Quote:

All I'm saying is....I'm less worried about a kid who is playing "yucky boys, let's 'get them' with our panties!" or a kid who is flashing her little flat chest...who has involved parents at home keeping an eye on her, meeting her sexual curiosity with information that fits with age appropriate sexual values....explaining that sex is not something you do with the six year old neighbor. I'm less worried about a kid displaying this behavior, who has parents at home who care and are involved....this girl is left alone to watch her two year old brother...anyone want to put money down, on how supportive and instructive her parents are, in her sexual play?
There's no way to tell. I know a woman whose children have been almost totally unsupervised since they were very, very little (the 6 year old used to watch the baby/toddler while his parents were outside smoking and having a few beer. The older boy was instructed to call them if the baby needed them. This particular mom - the dad is now out of the picture - is also frequently guilty of saying highly sexual things where her children can overhear them. She also answers their questions about nudity and sex in a very honest, age-appropriate fashion. The two (neglect and sex play) don't necessarily have anything to do with each other.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

But does it hurt to keep your eyes open? To talk to mom or dad or both?

As has been stated, though some may not see it that way, these are still signs of abuse. It doesn't mean there is abuse but why is it so wrong to err on the side of caution? We can rationalize it all we want but I would rather be more alert and it be nothing than ignore it and there really be an issue.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

AverysMomma: I like your post on sexuality, but I have to say I don't really agree with your view on virginity, either. I don't see it as a prize or a gift. It's a biological state, and the emphasis put on it, as either a prize or a gift, makes me want to puke.

My first time was with someone I chose deliberately, but barely knew. He didn't know until afterwards that I was a virgin, and I wanted it that way, too. The decisions were entirely mine, and nobody else's, but I didn't "give" him anything. We had sex (pretty good, actually). He broke my hymen. No gift. I can kind of see the "exchange" thing, but I still don't see virginity as something to exchange. All these terms still have overtones of a girl or woman's hymen being a commodity. That's not a message I want to send, yk?

I've had a few conversations in this vein with dh about dd, too. The whole "lock her up and get a rifle" mindset creeps me out (and, no - dh would never, ever actually get a gun). I didn't grow up with that, and I think I thought it was fictional until I was about 18. I know, from living with ds1 over the last couple of years, that it can be unnerving to have your child blossom into a sexual being, with intimate relationships of their own...but there's a strong undercurrent of ownership involved where dads and daughters are concerned. It's been around for a long, long time, and it's socially sanctioned - but it still weirds me out.

BTW, fifteen isn't too young for meaningful sex, imo. It's not about a calendar age - it's about a state of mind. While my ex and I crashed and burned spectacularly, we had about 7-8 really good years at the beginning...and we started having sex at 15 (him) and 16 (me). It wasn't meaningless at all.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
But does it hurt to keep your eyes open? To talk to mom or dad or both?

As has been stated, though some may not see it that way, these are still signs of abuse. It doesn't mean there is abuse but why is it so wrong to err on the side of caution? We can rationalize it all we want but I would rather be more alert and it be nothing than ignore it and there really be an issue.

It never hurts to keep your eyes open. If there is abuse, I'm not sure what talking to the parents would accomplish. In most cases, it's a relative or close family friend, and if they're not seeing it, there's a good chance they don't want to (or that it's one of them). It might help, though.

I'm more bothered by the tone of comments about this little girl. All in the name of protecting her innocence, she's being talked about in this thread like she's a prostitute or something - "propositioning", "strutting", "seductive". Is this really necessary?


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
It never hurts to keep your eyes open. If there is abuse, I'm not sure what talking to the parents would accomplish. In most cases, it's a relative or close family friend, and if they're not seeing it, there's a good chance they don't want to (or that it's one of them). It might help, though.

I'm more bothered by the tone of comments about this little girl. All in the name of protecting her innocence, she's being talked about in this thread like she's a prostitute or something - "propositioning", "strutting", "seductive". Is this really necessary?

Again, I 100% agree with Storm Bride. There is a lot of projection going on in this thread.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Maybe the projecting is coming from the thought that we are viewing this little girl as a "prostitute or something" as I have not meant that or felt that to be the case. Really it makes no sense. If we felt she was that way why would we be showing concern for her and our own little girls in this society? I see a lot more projecting happening in the defensiveness surrounding the over-sexualization of our girls and this one in particular.

But more than likely we are coming at this from different angels.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
Maybe the projecting is coming from the thought that we are viewing this little girl as a "prostitute or something" as I have not meant that or felt that to be the case. Really it makes no sense. If we felt she was that way why would we be showing concern for her and our own little girls in this society?

A bunch of people who have never set eyes on this girl are talking about her propositioning a neighbour boy, about her "strutting" and about her seductive behaviour. This is all based on the OP's _subjective_ impressions of her behaviour. Even the comments about her strutting around some neighbourhood creep or approaching one of the 10 year old who are having sex are really upsetting to me. If there's a creep in the neighbourhood, it's obviously _possible_ that he/she is a contributing factor in this girl's behaviour...but there's no reason to suggest that her behaviour is going to bring sexual abuse down on her head. Honestly, it smacks a lot of the old "well, she asked to be raped, because she's wearing a short skirt" attitude...only applied to a _5 year old_.

The concern in this thread is, imo, tainted by a certain amount of "well, she's a ruined girl (woman) now", which bothers me immensely. Nobody even knows how sexualized this girl is or isn't. We have the subjective impressions of one woman, and a couple of comments the girl has made, that probably aren't even verbatim.

Quote:

I see a lot more projecting happening in the defensiveness surrounding the over-sexualization of our girls and this one in particular.
I think the over-sexualization of our children, both boys and girls, is sick. I'm just not sure what it has to do with this particular girl, or why people are jumping to conclusions about abuse and lost innocence. "Innocence" is a pretty slippery concept in this regard. In many, many cultures, throughout human history, children have seen sex from the time they were babies...yet many of those same cultures are far more "innocent" than our own, in many ways.

Children explore their sexuality in a lot of ways. DS2 is inordinately proud of his penis and his retracting foreskin, and went through a phase where he wanted to show it to everybody, because it was "so cool". Being the somewhat pushy kid that he is, and considering how much trouble we're having getting him to understand other people's boundaries, I could also see him doing that after someone said they didn't want to see it. Does that make him a sexually abused child? Children manifest what they know and learn in different ways.

As I said, we had a little boy instigating inappropriate play with dd. We dug into it a little and it came from something he saw/heard on Family Guy. Do I think Family Guy is appropriate for a 5 year old? Not at all. But, he wasn't actually allowed to watch it, and, as much as I don't like it, I don't think the fact that he did see it qualifies as sexual abuse, yk?

When I was a kid, people barely even admitted that sexual abuse existed. When it did come up, in veiled terms, it was always some "weird" person in the neighbourhood that people were concerned about. Now, we know that's not how it works...but the pendulum has swung too far the other way. If children aren't completely asexual, in every way, there's always someone who is ready to throw up the "he/she is being sexually abused" flag. It concerns me. Children are sexual, even though it's not the same as adult sexuality.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

I think a lot of conclusions are being jumped to in *why* those who are concerned are concerned. So much of what you posted, SB, is just so way off in my own feelings on the subject I can't help but wonder where you are getting it.

No one has said children are not or should not be sexual. Again it is the level that is being discussed here and the multiple warning signs that even go beyond the sexual. Someone showing concern for a little girls sexual actions is not the same as viewing her as "ruined". How disgusting that would be! And the "well she was asking to be raped by wearing the mini skirt"? Seriously, where is this coming from?

Again, in my home we are open about sex and the human body. Call me crazy but kids running around nude or pulling up their shirts/pulling down their pants is just not something to freak over. Currently my 2 youngest have taken to pulling apart their labias and making pee noises for a laugh at each other. Of course they haven't learned that company doesn't really want to see them running around doing that but they're kids! Speaking for myself to say I am "tut tut"ing the human body or am being too prudish or whatever is just downright hilarious. At least DH and I did have a good laugh over it.

No one is attacking this little girl or making her out to be the bad guy. We are concerned. And how is that a bad thing- being concerned for a child? I have freely admitted that abuse might not be involved at all (meaning sexual in nature as obviously her being charged with her 2 yo bro is neglect/abuse). I have said that I would not be surprised if this was all just learned from the TV and have discussed the greater issue of over-sexualization in our society. Really, I see our children as victims in this not as the "enemy". How bizare to blame a child...

I think there is too much of a generalization here. People are assuming that sense we are showing concern we are anti-sex in general. It's just not that black and white.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
I think a lot of conclusions are being jumped to in *why* those who are concerned are concerned. So much of what you posted, SB, is just so way off in my own feelings on the subject I can't help but wonder where you are getting it.

No one has said children are not or should not be sexual. Again it is the level that is being discussed here and the multiple warning signs that even go beyond the sexual. Someone showing concern for a little girls sexual actions is not the same as viewing her as "ruined". How disgusting that would be! And the "well she was asking to be raped by wearing the mini skirt"? Seriously, where is this coming from?

I'm sorry. I'm getting it from the "multiple warning signs" that everyone is talking about and that I don't see. At least two of the...what? four?..."warning signs" you're all talking about are things I've seen from dd more than once.

I'm also getting it from the language people are using. Several people have said that she _propositioned_ the OP's ds. Do you not see how loaded that is?? We don't even know what she meant when she said "sex", but we're assuming she meant the actual act, and then calling it a "proposition". Holy crap. This is all adult filters. The talk about her strutting and being seductive "like a stripper" is also part of it. These things are _subjective_. The only person in this thread who has ever set eyes on this child is the OP, yet people are going on about her over-sexualized behaviour.

Quote:

Again, in my home we are open about sex and the human body. Call me crazy but kids running around nude or pulling up their shirts/pulling down their pants is just not something to freak over. Currently my 2 youngest have taken to pulling apart their labias and making pee noises for a laugh at each other. Of course they haven't learned that company doesn't really want to see them running around doing that but they're kids! Speaking for myself to say I am "tut tut"ing the human body or am being too prudish or whatever is just downright hilarious. At least DH and I did have a good laugh over it.

No one is attacking this little girl or making her out to be the bad guy. We are concerned. And how is that a bad thing- being concerned for a child? I have freely admitted that abuse might not be involved at all (meaning sexual in nature as obviously her being charged with her 2 yo bro is neglect/abuse). I have said that I would not be surprised if this was all just learned from the TV and have discussed the greater issue of over-sexualization in our society. Really, I see our children as victims in this not as the "enemy". How bizare to blame a child...

I think there is too much of a generalization here. People are assuming that sense we are showing concern we are anti-sex in general. It's just not that black and white.
Maybe if people weren't talking about this "strutting, seductive, stripper-like" child who "propositioned" another little boy, I wouldn't get that vibe. If people want to use that kind of language about a 5 year old child, they can own what they're saying. This stuff is derogatory of her sexuality. It just is. Whether she's a victim of abuse, or is just exposed to too much of the over-sexualized crap we call a culture, she's still being described in really negative ways. Try some of these words on your daughters, and see how they sound. Think about how you'd like someone calling your dd "seductive" or say she's acting "like a stripper" when they're playing with their labia. If someone talks about what might happen if your dd does that in front of a sexually active 10 year old, how would that go over?

There's a really negative undercurrent in this thread, and it's not just aimed at our over-sexualized society. It's aimed at this little girl...the seductive, strutting, "miniature super model". There have _always_ been people who have a more teasing and/or flirty kind of personality than others, and that can manifest in a very wide variety of ways.

Honestly, I'm feeling icky about letting dd out to play with the neighbour kids now. She's really into being "pretty" right now, and she's a stunning little girl. She likes to...preen, I guess is the right word. She's also quite comfortable with nudity, but at an age where she's playing with the taboo a little. She has a kind of flirty vibe when she's playing beauty queen. Apparently, that's enough to make people think we have a pervert loose in her life, or let her watch porn or something.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

A big "yeah, that" to Storm Bride. I have a pretty daughter with striking features who likes to sing and dance and dress in pretty clothes. Are my neighbors getting weird vibes from her? Does her being pretty make things different?


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

I too have beautiful daughters one of which is 5 and likes to be pretty as in wear nice things and requests her hair be done a certain way, etc. I may not agree with her going out in a tube top and mini skirt but I also don't have her in a paper sack hiding in the house. She likes to marry her "boyfriend" in the front yard. She likes to hold his hand. She likes to play super model. She likes to pose like a model for pictures- bat her eyes, pucker her lips, etc. You get the point. This behavior, and the behavior you listed your daughter does SB, is not the only issue and it is not THE issue with the little girl in the OP. Again, the point is being missed and people are on the defense. We're not meaning this in general terms. We're not saying a child who generally is sexual or pretty or likes to be noticed (etc) is abused or in the wrong (or any of those colorful words we're supposedly using to describe her "between the lines"). The OP has stated the red flags time and time again and the vibe felt.

As for the wording being used I have no issue with it as I feel it is being used to illustrate she is doing it in a more "mature" or "adult" manner not normal to a 5 year old. If my daughter was acting in that matter I would share that concern with a friend or family using those precise words. There seems to be too much knowledge NOT of the general nature with the little girl in the OP which is where the concern for abuse comes from. And again what she has done can be viewed as normal but to the degree and all the things together just add up.

I will continue to err on the side of caution for the sake of the child. And just to restate that does not mean viewing the child as "ruined" a "skank" or a "prostitute"


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I know the "red flags" have been posted. I simply don't see them as red flags. And, _as described_, two of them - at least - apply to my dd. So, yeah - I'm probably a little defensive. I hope nobody in the complex is talking about my "little stripper", yk? Yuck. It's a good way to protect kids from being oversexualized, though...just do it ourselves, in the name of protecting them.

And, I still find the use of the term "propositioning" with respect to the OP, extremely distasteful.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I thought so too. It would be like if a little girl asked a little boy to marry him and people thought that she really was expecting to get married and oh no what will we do and where did she get this idea of marriage anyway?


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

If a child went up to another and playfully said "let's have sex" that's one thing but the way the OP describes it it seemed more of a proposition again the word is used to suggest a more "mature" attitude. Pair that with there being older children sexually active in the neighborhood that the smaller ones know about (or at least proclaiming to be and making it look "cool") and it makes one raise an eyebrow.

Quote:

And, _as described_, two of them - at least - apply to my dd.
Some apply to my DD as stated and yet I am taking this objectively and looking at the bigger picture not just where there are similarities. If I wanted to I'm sure I could even find offense in the little bro running outside alone. This has happened to us and my 5 yo DD has run out and got her little sis and drug her back in. Does that mean I am being accused of abuse too? That's what I call a leap.

The posters who have shown concern have said time and time again that some of these things alone are no cause for alarm. But we're not looking at them alone. Why would I be only looking at the mother's left eye in a family portrait? The picture doesn't make much sense as a whole when we only choose to look at a few pieces.

Of course we are only able to see what the OP is painting for us which is- for like the 100th time- why I am not saying it is 100% no doubt abuse and I am not calling for the parent's heads or CPS/authorities to be involved. Just saying all of that together sounds a bit fishy.


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## Adsullata (Dec 22, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
I think a lot of conclusions are being jumped to in *why* those who are concerned are concerned. So much of what you posted, SB, is just so way off in my own feelings on the subject I can't help but wonder where you are getting it.

No one has said children are not or should not be sexual. Again it is the level that is being discussed here and the multiple warning signs that even go beyond the sexual. Someone showing concern for a little girls sexual actions is not the same as viewing her as "ruined". How disgusting that would be! And the "well she was asking to be raped by wearing the mini skirt"? Seriously, where is this coming from?

Again, in my home we are open about sex and the human body. Call me crazy but kids running around nude or pulling up their shirts/pulling down their pants is just not something to freak over. Currently my 2 youngest have taken to pulling apart their labias and making pee noises for a laugh at each other. Of course they haven't learned that company doesn't really want to see them running around doing that but they're kids! Speaking for myself to say I am "tut tut"ing the human body or am being too prudish or whatever is just downright hilarious. At least DH and I did have a good laugh over it.

No one is attacking this little girl or making her out to be the bad guy. We are concerned. And how is that a bad thing- being concerned for a child? I have freely admitted that abuse might not be involved at all (meaning sexual in nature as obviously her being charged with her 2 yo bro is neglect/abuse). I have said that I would not be surprised if this was all just learned from the TV and have discussed the greater issue of over-sexualization in our society. Really, I see our children as victims in this not as the "enemy". How bizare to blame a child...

I think there is too much of a generalization here. People are assuming that sense we are showing concern we are anti-sex in general. It's just not that black and white.

Yes, yes, yes.

The OP asked what would we do. I think those who are concerned are pointing out the warning signs and saying, hey, some caution is in order here. Which the op did- she talked with her son, has open, honest communication with her son. If it were me, I would not let my child play with the little girl without adult supervision, like she can come over to our house, if for no other reason than there doesn't seem to be any adult supervision around her home.

Maybe the little girl's not being abused, but I would do everything I could to protect my child, if it means erring on the side of caution, so be it. Personally, I would rather be labeled the crazy, overprotective mother than expose my child to abuse. Once it's done, you can't take it back, you can't erase it for your child, so for me it's just not worth the risk.

Also, there's been a lot of references to I've seen my kid playing with these other kids and here's what they were doing, it was innocent... I would say again, do you know for certain that none of those other kids isn't being abused? And that kid instigated the behavior? There may not be a way to know for sure, but that is why it's important to keep eyes and ears open for the warning signs so we can at least protect our own children.

I'm not mom to a five year old, but I do recall quite clearly what it was like to be that age.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

What it was like to be that age in the 70s or 80s is different than now, because there are a lot more overtly sexual references on prime time TV. If kids are watching prime time TV, they have a lot of phrases, and dancing and actions to copy, etc., that we didn't have to that extent. I think it started in the late 90s with Friends and Will and Grace, and it's gotten more so as time has gone on.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
What it was like to be that age in the 70s or 80s is different than now, because there are a lot more overtly sexual references on prime time TV. If kids are watching prime time TV, they have a lot of phrases, and dancing and actions to copy, etc., that we didn't have to that extent. I think it started in the late 90s with Friends and Will and Grace, and it's gotten more so as time has gone on.









I agree with this which is why we have also discussed the over-sexualization of our children in society as a whole on this thread.

FWIW I was 5 in 90/91 and looking at pictures of me then and going off of my memory we did not dress or act like kids do now. Sure we wanted to look more adult and we talked about sex but I was still wearing jumpers and big gaudy bows in my hair at 8 even. Now we have padded bikini tops in size 5/6. I'm pretty sure I remember still having that little attached ruffle skirt on my bathing suits well after that.


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## Just My Opinion (Nov 26, 2008)

I agree with storm bride in the way this girl is being portrayed. If someone described my not-quite four year old as behaving "like a stripper" or as "propositioning" someone for sex, or the other things portrayed, I would be so pissed off, everyone in the darn neighborhood would know it.

... and what exactly does her being "pretty" have to do with it? I am hearing statements like, "oh she'd better be careful, she is so pretty" and whatnot -- because, those ugly kids are safe from molestation and if the "pretty" girl gets hurt, she shouldn't have been wearin' that tube top?

This thread is... icky.

OP, just tell your son to not engage with the girl if he feels so uncomfortable -- and if you feel the need to address her mom, come from the perspective of protecting her daughter --

I seriously would not want to be the person who came to a mama like *me* telling me my daughter was acting "like a stripper". However, if someone came to me expressing that my little girl may be in danger, I might listen.


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## ZTMOM (Jan 5, 2008)

Call CPS. Today.


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## Adsullata (Dec 22, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
If a child went up to another and playfully said "let's have sex" that's one thing but the way the OP describes it it seemed more of a proposition again the word is used to suggest a more "mature" attitude. Pair that with there being older children sexually active in the neighborhood that the smaller ones know about (or at least proclaiming to be and making it look "cool") and it makes one raise an eyebrow.

Some apply to my DD as stated and yet I am taking this objectively and looking at the bigger picture not just where there are similarities. If I wanted to I'm sure I could even find offense in the little bro running outside alone. This has happened to us and my 5 yo DD has run out and got her little sis and drug her back in. Does that mean I am being accused of abuse too? That's what I call a leap.

The posters who have shown concern have said time and time again that some of these things alone are no cause for alarm. But we're not looking at them alone. Why would I be only looking at the mother's left eye in a family portrait? The picture doesn't make much sense as a whole when we only choose to look at a few pieces.

Of course we are only able to see what the OP is painting for us which is- for like the 100th time- why I am not saying it is 100% no doubt abuse and I am not calling for the parent's heads or CPS/authorities to be involved. Just saying all of that together sounds a bit fishy.









:


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 







I agree with this which is why we have also discussed the over-sexualization of our children in society as a whole on this thread.

FWIW I was 5 in 90/91 and looking at pictures of me then and going off of my memory we did not dress or act like kids do now. Sure we wanted to look more adult and we talked about sex but I was still wearing jumpers and big gaudy bows in my hair at 8 even. Now we have padded bikini tops in size 5/6. I'm pretty sure I remember still having that little attached ruffle skirt on my bathing suits well after that.

I was a kid in the 60s and I had a bikini at age 9. So did every other kid I knew. There was nothing sexy about it. Like the other clothes that children wear today, it was a matter purely of fashion. And, as I have pointed out on other threads, from what I can see of fashion cycles, it is not that childrens clothes have become more revealing and hence "adult", it is that adult clothes have become more revealing and hence "childish". Those who are younger or have very short memories seem to be unaware of that.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I spent the whole of the 70s in halter tops, bikinis, and short shorts. No one thought anything of it.

Edited to add: Summers only.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Again with the generalization. I said PADDED bikini. Now when i was a kid I wasn't allowed to wear a two piece at all which I think was lame but whatever. However all of my kids wear kid bikinis as it's just easier. There is a difference between kiddie 2 pieces and a padded bikini modeled to look like an adults.

And yes I am well aware of fashion cycles. Still I don't let fashion dictate what I find appropriate







Though I disagree about the adult/child thing. It's not about the level being revealed but about the style, cut, etc. A little girls tank top and a woman's tank top have a different style, cut, etc. I am referring to more adult style and cut not more adult because it is more reveling. Same with bikinis.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

It could have been padded for modesty's sake. I remember when I had breast buds wishing my bikini top were a bit padded to hide that.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
If a child went up to another and playfully said "let's have sex" that's one thing but the way the OP describes it it seemed more of a proposition again the word is used to suggest a more "mature" attitude.

I didn't get that at all. What did I miss? I got that a little girl said she wanted to have sex with a little boy, and people are freaked out. If there was something else there, can you point me to it? Calling it a proposition is weird. She may have meant she wants to hug him or kiss him or bump bellies (literally). Children interpret stuff like this through _their_ filters, not ours. I'm aware that people are using the word to suggest a more mature attitude...but that doesn't mean that the 5 year old girl in question _has_ that attitude.

Quote:

Some apply to my DD as stated and yet I am taking this objectively and looking at the bigger picture not just where there are similarities
And, again...I don't know what "big picture" you're all talking about. I don't see any "big picture". I see a little girl who sounds as though she's watched a little too much adult tv and/or overheard a few conversations she shouldn't have, and who likes to be "pretty". There have been references to the red flag of precocious sex play. What sex play? She lifted her shirt "like a stripper". What does that even _mean_? Slowly? "Teasingly"? DD has done that...at the same age. It meant nothing. DD hasn't even been exposed to anything like that on tv...I think she _may_ have picked it up from a cousin who watches a lot of tv, but I don't know, and I'm not worried about it. What other "sex play" has there been? About the only thing the OP mentioned, aside from the "babysitting" of her little brother, that doesn't apply to dd is the comment about adult spanking...and I could easily see her saying something that off the wall. (DS1 once answered the phone, at about 2, with "what do you want, and make it snappy, 'cause I'm _drunk_. I don't think he'd ever seen a drunk person and I have _no_ idea where he got that.) This isn't about taking it personally, because dd likes to look pretty. It's about the fact that I can easily see dd in the girl in the OP, _as described_ (aside from clothing, maybe, and at least half the little girls in this complex dress in clothes that I feel are too "mature" for them), and I'm feeling pretty icked out at the idea that people in our complex may be talking about her strutting around like a stripper, or how seductive she is.
Ick - I mean really - ick.

Quote:

The posters who have shown concern have said time and time again that some of these things alone are no cause for alarm. But we're not looking at them alone.
No - we're looking at a "big picture" that includes...being a "miniature super model", "seductively" removing her top in front of neighbourhood boys, "strutting", "propositioning" a neighbour boy and making an very off-colour comment about adult spanking. I guess I just don't see the picture the rest of you do.

Quote:

Of course we are only able to see what the OP is painting for us which is- for like the 100th time- why I am not saying it is 100% no doubt abuse and I am not calling for the parent's heads or CPS/authorities to be involved. Just saying all of that together sounds a bit fishy.
And, I'm saying that it doesn't sound fishy to me, and that the way the little girl is being talked about here turns my stomach. It's a _very_ sexual way to talk about a little girl.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just My Opinion* 
OP, just tell your son to not engage with the girl if he feels so uncomfortable

This.

Quote:

-- and if you feel the need to address her mom, come from the perspective of protecting her daughter --

I seriously would not want to be the person who came to a mama like *me* telling me my daughter was acting "like a stripper". However, if someone came to me expressing that my little girl may be in danger, I might listen.
And, this.


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## Elizabeth2008 (Nov 26, 2008)

First, it's highly unlikely she really knows what "sex" is. Kids at that age often repeat words or phrases they've heard. Also at that age I went through a stage of taking my clothes off with the neighborhood boys and girls that were my age and playing "you show me yours and I'll show you mine" It was all harmless and we were just curious to see what the other looked like. Honestly, it wasn't "sexual" as we had no sexual thoughts or desires. And the phase quickly passed. I would tell her parents only so they can be aware and maybe discuss with her. But if she was my child I wouldn't reproach her or be upset. She shouldn't be made to feel guilty for saying something that she probably has no idea what it means, and even if she does know what it means couldn't possibly understand completely.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just My Opinion* 
I agree with storm bride in the way this girl is being portrayed. If someone described my not-quite four year old as behaving "like a stripper" or as "propositioning" someone for sex, or the other things portrayed, I would be so pissed off, everyone in the darn neighborhood would know it.

... and what exactly does her being "pretty" have to do with it? I am hearing statements like, "oh she'd better be careful, she is so pretty" and whatnot -- because, those ugly kids are safe from molestation and if the "pretty" girl gets hurt, she shouldn't have been wearin' that tube top?

This thread is... icky.

OP, just tell your son to not engage with the girl if he feels so uncomfortable -- and if you feel the need to address her mom, come from the perspective of protecting her daughter --

I seriously would not want to be the person who came to a mama like *me* telling me my daughter was acting "like a stripper". However, if someone came to me expressing that my little girl may be in danger, I might listen.


I don;t know any other way to describe what she was doing.
She WAS moving in a way that is similar to how a stipper would move, while very slowly lifting her top and starting at the boys.

I have not said one bad thing about this little girl. I am simply trying to explain what I saw. It wasn't an innocent cutesy flash thing. It was very adult seeming. I know what I saw...How else am I supposed to describe it? She was gyrating the upper half of her body in that twisty/lunging way that strippers do. If someone else has a better word to use, great. But I am just trying to get the point across that it seemed really sexual. In an inappropriate way. I can promise that if any of you would have seen your daughter doing what I saw her do you would be concerned. I just don't know any other way to describe it.

I am not some sort of prude that doesn't understand normal child behaviour. I have never said that what this girl is doing is abnormal. I think it would be really mean and unfair to her if I no longer allowed my son to play with her because of this. And I would NEVER mention the 'moving like a stripper' thing to her mother.

As far as her being so pretty? Well last time I checked pretty girls tend to get more attention from boys. More of a chance that something bad could happen, or that she will come across a boy who says 'Yes' to her asking if they want to have sex. I feel like people are jumping to all sorts of conclusions. The only reason I started the thread was to mainly figure out where to go from here...how to guide my son etc.
I am in no way saying that the girl is a tramp who is asking to be raped or that she is being abused or anything like that.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I didn't get that at all. What did I miss? I got that a little girl said she wanted to have sex with a little boy, and people are freaked out. If there was something else there, can you point me to it? Calling it a proposition is weird. She may have meant she wants to hug him or kiss him or bump bellies (literally). Children interpret stuff like this through _their_ filters, not ours. I'm aware that people are using the word to suggest a more mature attitude...but that doesn't mean that the 5 year old girl in question _has_ that attitude.

And, again...I don't know what "big picture" you're all talking about. I don't see any "big picture". I see a little girl who sounds as though she's watched a little too much adult tv and/or overheard a few conversations she shouldn't have, and who likes to be "pretty". There have been references to the red flag of precocious sex play. What sex play? She lifted her shirt "like a stripper". What does that even _mean_? Slowly? "Teasingly"? DD has done that...at the same age. It meant nothing. DD hasn't even been exposed to anything like that on tv...I think she _may_ have picked it up from a cousin who watches a lot of tv, but I don't know, and I'm not worried about it. What other "sex play" has there been? About the only thing the OP mentioned, aside from the "babysitting" of her little brother, that doesn't apply to dd is the comment about adult spanking...and I could easily see her saying something that off the wall. (DS1 once answered the phone, at about 2, with "what do you want, and make it snappy, 'cause I'm _drunk_. I don't think he'd ever seen a drunk person and I have _no_ idea where he got that.) This isn't about taking it personally, because dd likes to look pretty. It's about the fact that I can easily see dd in the girl in the OP, _as described_ (aside from clothing, maybe, and at least half the little girls in this complex dress in clothes that I feel are too "mature" for them), and I'm feeling pretty icked out at the idea that people in our complex may be talking about her strutting around like a stripper, or how seductive she is.
Ick - I mean really - ick.

No - we're looking at a "big picture" that includes...being a "miniature super model", "seductively" removing her top in front of neighbourhood boys, "strutting", "propositioning" a neighbour boy and making an very off-colour comment about adult spanking. I guess I just don't see the picture the rest of you do.

And, I'm saying that it doesn't sound fishy to me, and that the way the little girl is being talked about here turns my stomach. It's a _very_ sexual way to talk about a little girl.

So do you just not believe that a little girl could be acting out a very sexual way?

Because it sounds like it from your posts, and that is a bit naive.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Elizabeth2008* 
First, it's highly unlikely she really knows what "sex" is. Kids at that age often repeat words or phrases they've heard. Also at that age I went through a stage of taking my clothes off with the neighborhood boys and girls that were my age and playing "you show me yours and I'll show you mine" It was all harmless and we were just curious to see what the other looked like. Honestly, it wasn't "sexual" as we had no sexual thoughts or desires. And the phase quickly passed. I would tell her parents only so they can be aware and maybe discuss with her. But if she was my child I wouldn't reproach her or be upset. She shouldn't be made to feel guilty for saying something that she probably has no idea what it means, and even if she does know what it means couldn't possibly understand completely.

This is my main concern about going to the parents. I don;t know that they will handle it very well, I could see her getting punished for it an that would do more harm than good. On the other hand I would want to know if I were her parents. I am glad that my son told me so that I could help him work through it.

Most of my initial shock was 'Oh My God I am already having to deal with this!!' and not shock over what the little girl did (and who knows WHAT my son did to contribute to this...he may have left some info out







). I am just not ready to be dealing with this.


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## Ducky5306 (Jul 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Teenytoona* 
I wonder about telling her parents. A girl that young shouldn't know about flaunting herself. I suspect sexual abuse in that poor child's life.

My exhusband's daughter was sexually abused by an uncle around age 5-6 and that is how her parents found out, she was saying things that she should have no idea about


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## Adsullata (Dec 22, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
So my 6 year old son told me today that the 5 year old neighbor told him she wants to have SEX with him!!!

WHAT would you do in this situation? We are acquaintances with the parents...I am thinking I should tell them about it, right? I would certainly want to know if it were my daughter saying things like that to little boys.

Also, what should I tell my DS? He is really embarrassed and upset about it. He is a very modest guy, and it really freaked him out. He does know what sex is, and I told him that it isn't for kids to do, then he told me that other kids in the neighborhood (10 years old) are doing it.

Now I am worried that my son is going to start feeling peer pressure to have sex. At barely 6 years old!!!









I want to give him some ideas of what he can say in the future if this girl, or anyone else, is making him feel uncomfortable about sex stuff. He just feels miserable about what happened...like he was sexually harassed. I guess I can be happy that this makes him uncomfortable and he knows it is wrong for kids to be acting out in this way, but still...

AAACCCKK I am not ready for this!!!

Also, I am not upset with the girl in any way. Just wanted to make that clear...if nothing else I am concerned that she is going to get herself in trouble. Some little boys may have said yes...


Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
Thanks for the responses!!

I have considered that she may not know what sex is, but I think she may have a pretty good idea. I hadn't considered explaining that to my son. That is a GREAT idea! She might not understand that you get naked when you have sex...I am sure that was the main thing that terrified my son.

I am very worried about the little girl because she is seriously the prettiest little girl I have ever seen. But not little girl pretty...more like a miniature super model. And she flaunts herself around. In fact, I just remembered that last weekend I thought I saw her lifting her bikini top up ( in a VERY seductive way...like a stripper!) in front of my son and another little boy, but I told myself I was being paranoid. And she was chasing them around and trying to kiss them...and on Sunday my son supposedly smacked her on the bottom. We play around like that in our family so I thought that was all it was...oh dear. I wonder if my son has been feeding into this, and it escalated to the little girl saying that.

I thought I had a few more years before I had to worry about this!!!


Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
Okay...DEEP BREATH...

DH and I were just discussing this, and the responses here, and he told me that he heard this same girl say *'Spanking isn't okay unless it is ADULTS in the BEDROOM'* to one of the other kids in the neighborhood.

WTF??!!!! That is NUTS! Why would anyone say that to a FIVE year old???









Also, I think that she does watch pretty much whatever she wants to on TV. I am not sure if they have cable, but I was thinking maybe she watches MTV or something.

Oh man...little kids are being exposed to way too much, way too soon. I am so sad right now







I really like this girl. She is so smart and spunky!


Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
I always wanted a daughter, but sometimes I breathe a sigh of relief that I have only boys.

Please pay attention to that bad feeling you get. It is very valid. I don't envy you at all.
It really broke my heart to hear that your dd's playmates told her that you thought parts of her body are ugly










Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
No older siblings


Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by magstphil View Post
Yes I can agree with all of the above. Our 5 year old DD also knows about sex and has known for some time. She doesn't flash but I wouldn't freak out if she did. She doesn't play sex with her dolls but I am expecting that and am not peeved by it. The point, however, is that this girl is making adult-like sexual advances. That sends up a major red flag.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
THIS is where I am coming from.

There is something that is just not right in this situation. This girl is left to babysit her (BARELY) 2 year old brother outside on a very busy road. There are a lot of red flag behaviors from this family.

I am completely open with my son about sex

Funny story-
When DS was 4 and I first explained sex to him, I told him that a Man puts his penis in a Woman's vagina, and that is called having sex.
He asked me 'how did Dad get a new penis after he put his in your vagina??'

















Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by magstphil View Post
Yes I agree. But still when your child is getting unwanted sexual advances and it is making them uncomfortable it just seems like more should be said/done then "oh it happens". Even for little kids it can be a big deal. I wonder how this thread would be going if it was the OP's son making these advances towards a little girl.

Again it may not be abuse. I wouldn't be surprised either way. But let's not deny her behavior is a sign. I would feel awful if I just brushed it off and didn't keep my eyes open or tell her mom about it conversation (not in accusation) only to find out there was abuse. I'm more worried about the little girl. It's just always a good idea to veer on the side of caution. But no I wouldn't go calling the cops or watching them through their windows or anything.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
I toatally agree with this. At first, he just told us that she tried to kiss him. I actually told him 'She is VERY pretty girl, you should be flattered that she tried to kiss you, not embarrassed'






















I NEVER would have said that to him if he were a girl...never. I just couldn't even believe myself

















Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
Well, that is a relief. I hope she did hear it on tv.

IDK, tho, there are alot of red flags going up...including that she is left to watch her brother while he is outside, and he is barely 2. We live on a VERY busy road.
I have found him wandering in MY driveway numerous times, completely alone!
It really worries me that someone is going to call CSD thinking it is MY kid (I have a 18 month boy) and report me. How would I prove that it wasn't my son??
I think it is time to have a little chat with this family. I am scared that I am going to get the girl in trouble, though.

So here's the op's earlier posts all in one convenient location.

I think it's clear everyone here agrees that we should protect our kids (avoid the other kid if they make you uncomfortable). In so far as the op's son is concerned, it ultimately doesn't matter if the little girl is being abused or not. He's uncomfortable, the OP has not so positive feelings about the situation. She should (and it sounds like she certainly is) follow what her instinct is telling her.

I don't think anyone's suggesting anything crazy, just to keep eyes and ears open, and to say something to the parents if you really feel it's necessary. But I hear everyone saying for the OP to be sensitive to her son (which it sounds like she is) and to watch out for him (which she is also doing).

FTR, I personally still see the described behaviors, combined with the young girl's environment, as some red flags of potential abuse happening. Also, when other people who openly admit they were molested and who would know firsthand what the signs are and can recognize that feeling in your gut saying a situation just isn't sounding safe, say they see some red flags, I am inclined to listen since those folks have BTDT.

OP, my heart is with you and I hope you are able to find a way to navigate these waters and to keep your family safe.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
So do you just not believe that a little girl could be acting out a very sexual way?

Because it sounds like it from your posts, and that is a bit naive.

I missed where I said that, or even implied it.
I don't see the red flags the rest of you see, is what I'm saying.

I've seen kids acting out sexually, and nothing you describe comes even close to what I've seen. What you've described _does_ apply to perfectly normal kids I've known, though.

I still don't know what the red flags are here, to tell the truth.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adsullata* 
FAlso, when other people who openly admit they were molested and who would know firsthand what the signs are and can recognize that feeling in your gut saying a situation just isn't sounding safe, say they see some red flags, I am inclined to listen since those folks have BTDT.

I've been molested, too. It's not a guarantee of some kind of ESP, or perfect awareness of this stuff, you know. I still don't see red flags in this particular case. FWIW, the kids I've known who behaved in a fashion closest to what the OP describes are kids that I'm reasonably sure (you can almost never be 100%) haven't been molested...including dd. The ones who I know have been molested have generally acted out in a much more blatantly sexual manner...or they've been very withdrawn.

Quite honestly, the single thing about all of this that I find the most worrisome (aside from the not-properly-supervised toddler) is the OP's own words to her son, here:

Quote:

At first, he just told us that she tried to kiss him. I actually told him 'She is VERY pretty girl, you should be flattered that she tried to kiss you, not embarrassed'
...and I'm really glad she said she couldn't believe herself. First of all, the "she's pretty, so a kiss is good" is just...ick. What if an ugly, but very sweet girl tried to kiss him? Invalidating a child's discomfort with someone else's attempts to show affection also wigs me out, and that's about as far as my legacy of molestation takes me here. (The wife of my abuser did this routinely, although to a much greater extent than the OP.)


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Adsullata: THANK YOU for gathering all of that and posting it in one place.

Anyone who reads allof the OPs posts, back to back, and doesn't feel AT LEAST mildly concerned for this girl, is way off base IMO. I'm sorry.

As for the "What, she's pretty, so she's ASKING to be abused" - oh my goodness, get ahold of yourselves mamas!! No one is saying that. It's not about her being pretty...she is one of those little girls who does not have the pretty, round little face of a girl...you know? Her face is not childlike..she is one of those girls, who has a prety ADULT LIKE face...that looks like a miniature version of a grown womans pretty face...so, she's got adult looks, is moving in seductive ways, like an adult and is suing adult language. All I'm saying, all anyone else is saying, is that is a perfect storm for trobule for this five year old. I'm shocked and insulted that some of you would actually believe that any of us are suggesting ANYTHING bad about this girl...we are saying, that she could be in danger...NOT that she is a little stripper, or a whatever else..derrogatory word for "easy lady" - that's disusgting that any of you would actually believe that we would be saying that.

Whatever...again, I'm just the mom of a 1 year old DD, who is OBVISOULY way out of touch with the times...since I didn't knwo that it's now normal for 10/11/12 year olds to be having sex....ha! Not in my damn house it's not! Are you joking?? TEN? When I was ten, I was wearing floral leggings and eating my boogers. Geez you guys..that's way way jaded, that you wold think that 11 or 12 yar olds having sex is "no biggie".

Stormie....you know I love ya...but I completely disagree with you about first sexual experiences. Maybe it's just me being dreamy and stupid...but I DO believe, that the decision to have sex for the first time is a big, spiritual decision. I do not view it is scientifically as you do. Yes, one moment you have an intact hymen and the next you don't...but that's the boring part. The truly remarkable..OR the truly dreadful...part, is the part where a girl either makes a spirited, whole hearted, meaningful decision to do something she is completely comfortable with...that is special to her and which will live on as an important day in her life....OR...the part where a girl makes a decision based on someone elses needs/wants, which is NOT special for her and does NOT make her feel special and happy and cared for and empowered. I would rather the former for MY DD....that's all I'm saying.

I DO think it's special...I DO think it's something beyond a physical happening. It's making the decision to step out of yourself as a girl, and into a young woman...into your life as a sexually active being. THAT MEANS SOMETHING...that's SOMETHING. I don't know what it is..I'm not ashamed to admit, that the power to make that decision was stolen from me and that I don't really KNOW that this is true....but I think it can be something really wonderful and I think it SHOULD have special value placed upon it...for the GIRL. Not as a thing to own or guard or whatever else...it belongs to a GIRL...and it is hers to do with what she wishes. And when she finds someone special, that she wants to share that first time with...I think it SHOULD be a big deal and I think she SHOULD have a conversation with the young man in question..he should know it's her first time...it should be a celebration of that first...a celebration of the first uniting with another body, for what I view to be a sacred act.

So. That's my view...I respect yours, but I think the idea behind it cheats a woman from celebrating something which should be important to her...if it is. If it's not important to you...that's fine, but I want it to be important to my DD...not in the traditional "maiden flower" sense....but a celebration. The marking of a new chapter in her life....that's what it is...turning a page, which can never be turned back again. It is one of those moments, where you can never go back. It's like your first menstrual time, delivering your first child....becoming someone's life partner. Whatever happens to you after that point...you never can be again, who you were before. It's MAGIC. It should be a really cool, really awesome day in your life.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I missed where I said that, or even implied it.
I don't see the red flags the rest of you see, is what I'm saying.

I've seen kids acting out sexually, and nothing you describe comes even close to what I've seen. What you've described _does_ apply to perfectly normal kids I've known, though.

I still don't know what the red flags are here, to tell the truth.

But there are those of us who do see the red flags, have seen them before and had it led to something. There is even a mama who posted just a few up with that experience.

Yes it can mean nothing but why is there this insistence it _is_ nothing? Again why not just be cautious? I think there are people just taking this way too personally who are unable to be subjective. At very least those of us who are concerned are willing to admit that it could be nothing. Usually the most insistent ones are the ones unable to separate themselves from the situation. Sure you could all be right but you know there is just no harm in keeping your eyes open.

And we REALLY need to get off the pretty statement. My gosh how horrid she said she was pretty.







I say that about every child. It's so odd we can make a mountain out of a mole hill about a woman calling a child pretty to her son and yet not see an issue when a child is showing classic signs of abuse.







: I am way less concerned with the OP calling the girl pretty than with the question "what if she was ugly?" Huh? So you think 5 year olds can be ugly and furthermore think that if a mother points one's prettiness out than she would be inclined to say "wow! that kid is ugly?" Should I be laughing or crying here? There were a few of us calling our own DDs pretty and beautiful not too long ago on this thread. Should there be concern over that? What if our DDs were ugly?







It just is really detereing from the real issues.


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## Just My Opinion (Nov 26, 2008)

Then call cps op, because we all know young girls are less likely to be molested in foster homes, right?

I mean, I just don't know what the OP is meant to do other than to tell her son not to engage if he feels uncomfortable -- or to talk to the parents about it.

Just don't open with, "your five year old kid is performing stripteases for the neighborhood boys" unless you are asking for trouble. I'm just sayin'.

I only commented on the pretty thing when posters were like, no you don't get it, she is PRETTY. It sounded to me like they were suggesting that she was bound to be molested or abused because she was pretty. Which is, ick.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

dubfam~ You are doing the right thing being mindful.









I can honestly say that I very well may have said a similar thing to one of my DDs if she came to me as a knee-jerk reaction to make her feel better.

Honestly I hope I have a conscious neighbor like you so if my daughter was in danger and I didn't see it I would know. When it comes to things like this it is such a disservice to the child to sit and rationalize it away. At very least we should be conscious and alert for the children's sake.

:


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## beansmama (Aug 2, 2007)

My 5yo DD doesn't know about sex...if she asked i'd tell her, but it hasn't come up. We don't have cable, i don't let her play with toys i deem inappropriate (bratz, for example)...she dresses modestly. So to me, this isn't normal behavior.

That being said...i was totally boy and sex obsessed at a really young age. I'm not sure why, because i wasn't abused but i must've heard someone talking about it! My barbies had orgies all the time.

I have friends with kids around age 8 watch MTV and love to dance sexy like the girls on the rap videos and can't wait until they get "big boobs". It disgusts me...but nothing i can do about it.

The spanking thing...and the flashing...there is a chance this girl might have seen porn? I'm just throwing it out there...but maybe her mom or dad left something up on the computer or in the dvd player...it's possible.

I'd call CPS because of the watching her little brother thing...that's total crap. My bff got CPS called on her when she left her 4yo DD outside their apt. with a group of other moms. My friend didn't ask if anyone would watch her...and the other moms called CPS. yeah, my friend was an idiot...all I'm saying is calling CPS in that situation is NOT out of line.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just My Opinion* 
Then call cps op, because we all know young girls are less likely to be molested in foster homes, right?

There have been very few of us suggesting that for one. For two we're evil for even thinking of abuse in this case but you can make sarcastic broad statements about foster parents? Hmmm.... That's a whole other discussion though. My point is why be so knee-jerk about it? The majority of us and the OP are simply looking to the "be alert" route.

Quote:

I mean, I just don't know what the OP is meant to do other than to tell her son not to engage if he feels uncomfortable -- or to talk to the parents about it.
Keep her eyes and ears open for other signs of abuse and go from there.
Make sure the little girl isn't be taking advantage of my the older neighborhood kids by the same means.
Be a mindful neighbor and simply pay attention to the children around her and her children.

Quote:

Just don't open with, "your five year old kid is performing stripteases for the neighborhood boys" unless you are asking for trouble. I'm just sayin'.
Where did it say she should or would? As a matter of fact there have been posts where we have discussed her taking it to the parents and not in the manner above.

Quote:

I only commented on the pretty thing when posters were like, no you don't get it, she is PRETTY. It sounded to me like they were suggesting that she was bound to be molested or abused because she was pretty. Which is, ick.
Yes, that is very ick. And also not what was said by anyone at all.


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

A few thoughts on the matter...

* Lifting a shirt up at 5 is okay, and can seem very seductive to adults through our twisted minds.

* Saying "spanking is okay only with adults in the bedroom" kind of comment is definitely either overheard, or walked in. It doesn't even have to be S&M







If a kid saw it, parents could conjure up a quick explanation. TV is also a likely source. Nothing strange. Nothing new.

* "I wanna have sex with you" is not something you would say if you were abused at that age. Asked me how I know.

* I think it is very likely the kid has no idea what sex actually is, or has had a discussion about it recently with her parents and interpreting it into play.

* Kids say that kind-a stuff because they are learning what sex is, and exploring. trying to figure out how it works. I was 5 when I got my first kiss.







We did that a lot with my friend who I was convinced I will be my husband. We were 5. I wonder if you throw in cable TV of today, and I'd be talking to him about sex.









* The only valid concern described here is busy road and a 2 year old, oh and of course, good old intuition, which is not to be underestimated. Everything else seems normal to me.


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## ZTMOM (Jan 5, 2008)

Good point. Why are so few people saying they see red flags but they don't think it's appropriate to call CPS?

Watch out for her own boy, but the girl is on her own because she's been dealt the hand of parents who think it's ok to give her the responsibilty of caring for a two year old. Yes, the two year old. Where is the outrage over that?


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

Quote:

For example- it is normal for a 5 year old girl to want to look pretty or even sexy. But is it ok for a 5 year old girl to wear a mini skirt and a tube top? *A padded bikini top?* Full on makeup? I am guessing we're all going to have different standards for "dress up" and when dress up is no longer dress up but the norm.
My 6 year old wears a padded top to hide her breast buds. Within the next year she will start wearing a bra (she actually wants one now because her breasts are visible through some shirts). These "padded" bikini tops DO NOT create the illusion of a full breast... it is almost impossible to tell they are padded, unless you are looking closely.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ZTMOM* 
Good point. Why are so few people saying they see red flags but they don't think it's appropriate to call CPS?

Watch out for her own boy, but the girl is on her own because she's been dealt the hand of parents who think it's ok to give her the responsibilty of caring for a two year old. Yes, the two year old. Where is the outrage over that?

The 2 year old thing yes I can understand that with CPS. But the thing is CPS doesn't do jack crap- at least in my area- so that is why we didn't call when we had a similar situation. I won't even get into what they have walked away from









Let me as you- do you automatically call the fire department when you see smoke coming from your neighbor's backyard? Just because there is smoke doesn't mean there is an uncontrolled fire. He could be BBQing. Why not just peek over the fence or better yet knock on his door and ask? When there is no definite sign calling the authorities is just knee-jerk. But definitely watch out. Don't tell yourself "oh he is just BBQing" and walk away only to have your neighbor's house burn down if not more damage done.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amylcd* 
My 6 year old wears a padded top to hide her breast buds. Within the next year she will start wearing a bra (she actually wants one now because her breasts are visible through some shirts). These "padded" bikini tops DO NOT create the illusion of a full breast... it is almost impossible to tell they are padded, unless you are looking closely.

I also developed that young.

There are outfits out there that are meant to give that impression. Two different padded tops could be being talked about here. There are outfits that are meant to be more mature and adult-like for our little girls.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Sorry to add onto the end of what I was saying in my PP- and for little boys too. I am a little *girl*-centric if anyone can guess why


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## Cookie3 (Dec 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
So, after walking away from this thread for the afternoon and thinking...I think the little girl probably doesn't have anyone around safegaurding her innocence...she probably watches way too much TV and is privy to adult conversations she shouldn't be...I think it's absolutely tragic...just, unspeakable, that this child is too busy tryin to be sexy, to play out the rest of her childhood. I'm sure she's pieced things together, as another PP said, and says these things because no one treats her like a child at home and she equates "grown up" with "sexual" - ugh.

As the mother of a DD, I'm just so disheartened. What the hell is wrong with us? What has happened to our culture, that this is where we've landed.

This is why my house is a no tv house. This is why my children will be homeschooled in a coop, this is why we're buying a house in the country...people have said to me, "You know, you can't hide form the world" and I always become defensive and say "nono it's not to HIDE" - but you know what? I don't think I have any reason to feel ashamed, of my desire to hide away from this crap. I refuse to accept a reality, where my child is going to be having raunchy conversations with other five year olds about sex. I refuse to accept a reality, in which ten year olds are having sex and young girls are telling each other that their parents don't want them wearin tube tops because they think their DDs stomach is ugly. I won't acept it, I won't be a part of it and your damn right, that I'm going to hide my precious daughter away in the woods somewhere, to give her the childhood she deserves.

GEEEEZ!! I'm just steaming mad right now...I'm steaming mad, that simply being exposed to the culture of my people, is so corrupting to youth as this. We've known that when we had a family, we would do our best to try and carve out a little corner of the earth for ourselves..not even to prtend away the world...just to create a buffer, to create a reality which is gentle, slower and more..well, freakin' NORMAL, than the reality that is being pushed on people these days....today, I have been strengthened in my conviction...I am more sure now, than ever, that this is what we need to do.

I'm just sickened, by what some of you have shown me on this thread....I had NO idea how bad things have become in some places. WHAT ARE WE DOING to our children???

OP....what are you thinking?? Maybe a letter? Are you worried at all about the parents getting angry at this girl? I'd hate for her to be in trouble...









YES YES YES..I agree with every word of this!!!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AverysMomma* 
Stormie....you know I love ya...but I completely disagree with you about first sexual experiences. Maybe it's just me being dreamy and stupid...but I DO believe, that the decision to have sex for the first time is a big, spiritual decision. I do not view it is scientifically as you do. Yes, one moment you have an intact hymen and the next you don't...but that's the boring part. The truly remarkable..OR the truly dreadful...part, is the part where a girl either makes a spirited, whole hearted, meaningful decision to do something she is completely comfortable with...that is special to her and which will live on as an important day in her life....OR...the part where a girl makes a decision based on someone elses needs/wants, which is NOT special for her and does NOT make her feel special and happy and cared for and empowered. I would rather the former for MY DD....that's all I'm saying.

I DO think it's special...I DO think it's something beyond a physical happening. It's making the decision to step out of yourself as a girl, and into a young woman...into your life as a sexually active being. THAT MEANS SOMETHING...that's SOMETHING. I don't know what it is..I'm not ashamed to admit, that the power to make that decision was stolen from me and that I don't really KNOW that this is true....but I think it can be something really wonderful and I think it SHOULD have special value placed upon it...for the GIRL. Not as a thing to own or guard or whatever else...it belongs to a GIRL...and it is hers to do with what she wishes. And when she finds someone special, that she wants to share that first time with...I think it SHOULD be a big deal and I think she SHOULD have a conversation with the young man in question..he should know it's her first time...it should be a celebration of that first...a celebration of the first uniting with another body, for what I view to be a sacred act.

I think it can be all that. I think it can be that for a guy, too. But, first sexual experiences and virginity aren't necessarily the same thing. That's part of my "thing" about this. I think there's far too much emphasis placed on virginity, in and of itself.

Quote:

So. That's my view...I respect yours, but I think the idea behind it cheats a woman from celebrating something which should be important to her...if it is. If it's not important to you...that's fine, but I want it to be important to my DD...not in the traditional "maiden flower" sense....but a celebration. The marking of a new chapter in her life....that's what it is...turning a page, which can never be turned back again. It is one of those moments, where you can never go back. It's like your first menstrual time, delivering your first child....becoming someone's life partner. Whatever happens to you after that point...you never can be again, who you were before. It's MAGIC. It should be a really cool, really awesome day in your life.
Delivering my first child almost destroyed me as a woman. Becoming someone's life partner was a total disaster the first time (except for ds1). I'm just not huge on the importance of firsts at this point in my life. Looking at the number of people I know who are creating various rituals and ceremonies in their lives, I suspect I'm in the minority on this.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
Honestly I hope I have a conscious neighbor like you so if my daughter was in danger and I didn't see it I would know. When it comes to things like this it is such a disservice to the child to sit and rationalize it away. At very least we should be conscious and alert for the children's sake.

Well, there's where we differ. I sincerely hope I don't have a neighbour like the OP, because I don't want a bunch of weird speculation about dd's exploration of her own sexuality.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Well, there's where we differ. I sincerely hope I don't have a neighbour like the OP, because I don't want a bunch of weird speculation about dd's exploration of her own sexuality.

Gee, thanks.









You don't know me. If you did you would know that my house is where all the kids play. I watch the whole pack of neighbor kids day in and day out. We also share our garden harvest and with our neighbors and cook for all the kids. We are excellent neighbors.

I do not understand what I have said that would make you say that about me. Do you not believe that a 5 year old can be intentionally seductive? How can you be so sure that I am wrong in my interpretation of this girl, who I see nearly every day? This has been an escalating pattern of behavior over the past few weeks. I am not saying that anything is going wrong for her, but I have a really bad gut feeling about it. I guess I should just ignore that feeling?

I really don;t understand WHAT I have done wrong here. I also don't understand what this has to do with your daughter


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Well, there's where we differ. I sincerely hope I don't have a neighbour like the OP, because I don't want a bunch of weird speculation about dd's exploration of her own sexuality.

I wouldn't want that either but in the case where there are signs that line has been crossed you bet I'd rather be living next to her than someone who would rather rationalize it away for their own comfort.







Not every child is just like your DD. Not every parent is you.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

SB~ I have always enjoyed your posts but in this case I just have to scratch my head. It just seems like you are unable to separate your DD from this girl and these circumstances. You keep bringing up that your DD this or that and are unable to step back and look at the entire picture. Thats fine. We deal with what we know. What I fail to understand is why the recommendation to just be cautious is so outlandish to some people here. I. Don't. Get. It.

Sorry you are being drug through the mud here for giving a damn, dubfam!


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## Mountaingirl79 (Jul 12, 2008)

I was a very boy crazy and "sex crazy" child as well. I wasn't abused or anything, I was just... precocious.

( My barbies were having orgies too. LOL I can't believe I just admitted that!)

One time my "girlfriends" were uncomfortable by a book I was reading in third grade that had boy craziness in it. ( I think it had some dating in it...whatever.







)

I didn't however, start having sex at age 10 or anywhere CLOSE to that. LOL

I read thru this whole thread and I agree with where SB is coming from. Don't jump to conclusions, just politely inform the girls parents that her daughter said some grown up things to your son and then let them deal with it..

ETA: They might just need to sit her down and talk to her about boundaries and maybe buy her a book about her body, ya know?


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

There sure is a whole l0t going on in this thread. I actually just went to a talk by a pediatrician at my kid's preschool about sexual behavior among preschoolers. She divided up the behaviors into age-appropriate and normal, potentially normal but slightly concerning, and definitely abnormal "red flag" stuff. I think this little gir's behavior falls into the second catgeory and that we have no way of knowing what is going on. If I were the OP, I would speak to the parents. "There seems to be some sexualized talk going on between our kids and it's confusing and a little upsetting to my son. Can you talk with your daughter about it?" And then I would tell my son that he was right to tell me about it and review with him that no one should touch him in his bathing suit area and that if someone, ANYone, is talking about these things in a way that makes him uncomofrtable he should tell you. I would give him the words to say, "No, I don't want to play like that--let's play something else."

The ped classified the following as totally normal for a 5yo:

Asking questions about bodies, sex, where babies come from
Masturbation
Mutual noncoercive "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" between friends
Pee and poop talk

The following as something to watch carefully--might be normal, might be signs of abuse:
Explicit sexual talk
Repeated drawing of sexual body parts
Mutual masturbation
Simulating *explicit* sexual behavior with dolls
Very preoccupied with masturbating
Repeated, coercive pulling down of pants or skirts of others

The following as unacceptable behavior showing warning signs:
Coercive sexual play
Any penetrative play
Sexual behavior between kids more than 4 years apart in age
Wanting to touch genitals of any child, not just close friends


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
There sure is a whole l0t going on in this thread. I actually just went to a talk by a pediatrician at my kid's preschool about sexual behavior among preschoolers. She divided up the behaviors into age-appropriate and normal, potentially normal but slightly concerning, and definitely abnormal "red flag" stuff. I think this little gir's behavior falls into the second catgeory and that we have no way of knowing what is going on. If I were the OP, I would speak to the parents. "There seems to be some sexualized talk going on between our kids and it's confusing and a little upsetting to my son. Can you talk with your daughter about it?" And then I would tell my son that he was right to tell me about it and review with him that no one should touch him in his bathing suit area and that if someone, ANYone, is talking about these things in a way that makes him uncomofrtable he should tell you. I would give him the words to say, "No, I don't want to play like that--let's play something else."

The ped classified the following as totally normal for a 5yo:

Asking questions about bodies, sex, where babies come from
Masturbation
Mutual noncoercive "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" between friends
Pee and poop talk

The following as something to watch carefully--might be normal, might be signs of abuse:
Explicit sexual talk
Repeated drawing of sexual body parts
Mutual masturbation
Simulating *explicit* sexual behavior with dolls
Very preoccupied with masturbating
Repeated, coercive pulling down of pants or skirts of others

The following as unacceptable behavior showing warning signs:
Coercive sexual play
Any penetrative play
Sexual behavior between kids more than 4 years apart in age
Wanting to touch genitals of any child, not just close friends

Thanks for posting that. Very interesting. I am not surprised that she is more the middle category. That is what I was thinking this whole time. Potential red flags.

I don;t think I am going to say anything to the parents, because I am concerned that they wont take it very well. Some people really freak out and overreact to this type of thing...and I don;t want this girl to be made to feel bad. I don't generally agree with the way I see them parent. If the little girl starts crying because it is time to go home they tell her to 'Stop acting like a baby' or she wont be allowed to come back again. DH overheard the dad tell the (BARELY) 2 year old to stop 'acting like a baby' because he was crying.

They also grounded her for a week when she was watching her brother outside and he almost got hit by a car. They still haven't figured out that they are expecting WAaaaaaayyy too much from her at 5.

I am not saying they are terrible parents, but they are really young and I don't know that they have much support. I think that most of their friends don't have kids yet. They are just doing the best they know how...


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Thank you for posting that, loraxc!

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Ok sorry but I have to say it! It's a pet peeve of mine!

Being young is no indicator and no excuse. When people are jerk parents it's because they are jerk parents not because of their age. Chances are they'd be that way 10 years from now.


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## beansmama (Aug 2, 2007)

I used to draw naked people all the time when i was in preschool and show the pictures to my friends...also, like i said, my barbies got it on a LOT, not sure what would classify as "explicit".

And like i said, i was never abused or anything...so just make sure you don't jump to conclusions


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Beansmama, remember, those are "yellow light" behaviors--could be something, could be nothing, but something to keep an eye on.


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## hotmamacita (Sep 25, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
Thanks for posting that. Very interesting. I am not surprised that she is more the middle category. That is what I was thinking this whole time. Potential red flags.

*I don;t think I am going to say anything to the parents, because I am concerned that they wont take it very well*. Some people really freak out and overreact to this type of thing...and I don;t want this girl to be made to feel bad. I don't generally agree with the way I see them parent. If the little girl starts crying because it is time to go home they tell her to 'Stop acting like a baby' or she wont be allowed to come back again. DH overheard the dad tell the (BARELY) 2 year old to stop 'acting like a baby' because he was crying.

They also grounded her for a week when she was watching her brother outside and he almost got hit by a car. They still haven't figured out that they are expecting WAaaaaaayyy too much from her at 5.

I am not saying they are terrible parents, but they are really young and I don't know that they have much support. I think that most of their friends don't have kids yet. They are just doing the best they know how...

Please tell the parent(s). They need to know truth regardless of how you think they will process it.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hotmamacita* 
Please tell the parent(s). They need to know truth regardless of how you think they will process it.

Yes. Maybe going to just one? Like maybe pull the mother aside and just say "you know this and this happened and I just wanted to let you know my son was uncomfortable". I wouldn't say "and that is a potential sign of abuse" or anything but just let her/him/them know what happened.


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## averlee (Apr 10, 2009)

so many of us identify or relate to something here.
Sometimes it's hard to deal with anything about sex, and it's always hard to know what to do about other people's kids.
You have your instincts pulling at you, and other forces which may cloud or squash your instincts.
On one hand, you feel you ought to speak to the girl's parents. On the other hand, if the child might be suffering abuse, you obviously don't want to risk making it worse for her.
I know I haven't said anything helpful here. But I think if you are genuinely concerned for the little girl, you should weasel & wedge yourself deeper into her life. For one thing, be very kind to her, avoid reprimanding her, and quietly gain her trust. She may begin telling you things which explain her behavior. A similar approach may work with her parents. Even if they aren't people you'd normally make friends with, do your best to befriend them. Smile and wave a lot, find things to compliment them about, invite them for a barbecue. I know it sounds dumb, but if you get to know everyone quite well, you may gain some insights. You may be able to help. If this little girl is being hurt at home, she needs an adult she can trust. Look in your heart, mama. Your guts have already told you, this adult might have to be you.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *averlee* 
Yes, maybe this is a little weird, maybe. But it's not outside the realm of normal 5-6 year old behavior.

This just makes me want to cry.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beansmama* 
And like i said, i was never abused or anything...so just make sure you don't jump to conclusions









I think jumping to conclusions is much better than turning away when we see potential abuse. I was abused as a child. At least 3 mandated reporters knew of the abuse - 2 because I told them outright - and *none* of them did anything. Looking back, I suspect others knew - neighbors, some close family friends, certainly relatives - but again, they didn't do anything. Yes, that colors my view of what I see when it comes to children, but it's far more harmful to allow a child to continue in an abusive situation than to upset someone by mentioning inappropriate behavior.

As for this specific girl, I'd agree with the list lorax posted - that these comments/behaviors are potentially signs of abuse but not absolutely. I personally wouldn't want to live in the places where many of you seem to be. My children are 2 and 4, and the most controversial issues we've had with friends are over ones who get to have a TV in their bedroom and stay up really late. DS and I have been over appropriateness in terms of bodies, and I get a detailed story of the conversations he had at preschool daily. Nothing remotely sexual has come up, so I find the idea that this behavior is perfectly normal a bit of a stretch.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

For people who think her behavior is on the second list, what specifically is where on that list? I'm not seeing it.

"Spanking is only OK if it's adults in the bedroom" isn't about children and isn't explicitly sexual. "I want to have sex with you" isn't even explicitly sexual. If she had said explicitly what she wanted to do, that would be, but she didn't. Pulling up her top isn't "Repeated, coercive pulling down of pants or skirts of others". Her behavior seems like it's hardly even in the first list. She told the boy she wanted to have sex with him, which is non-coercive sexual talk between friends. No one knows if she knew what "have sex" means, as what specifically she wanted to do wasn't stated explicitly. And she didn't tell him he had to do anything, she said what she wanted, so it wasn't coercive.

I wouldn't ignore red flags if I saw them, I'm just not seeing them, and I don't see anything that fits into the second category in that list either.

Edited to add - it sounds like a little girl who doesn't get enough supervision and watches TV that is too mature to her.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

My own mother knew about my abuse and did nothing. Her boyfriend was more important to her. She still talked to him until recently when she lost touch.

So yes basically I agree with the above and also averlee you are right on here...

Quote:

You may be able to help. If this little girl is being hurt at home, she needs an adult she can trust. Look in your heart, mama. Your guts have already told you, *this adult might have to be you*.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
Gee, thanks.









You don't know me. If you did you would know that my house is where all the kids play. I watch the whole pack of neighbor kids day in and day out. We also share our garden harvest and with our neighbors and cook for all the kids. We are excellent neighbors.

I do not understand what I have said that would make you say that about me. Do you not believe that a 5 year old can be intentionally seductive? How can you be so sure that I am wrong in my interpretation of this girl, who I see nearly every day? This has been an escalating pattern of behavior over the past few weeks. I am not saying that anything is going wrong for her, but I have a really bad gut feeling about it. I guess I should just ignore that feeling?

I really don;t understand WHAT I have done wrong here. I also don't understand what this has to do with your daughter









My post that you quoted was in response to something someone else said about you as a neighbour. Based on _her_ interpretation, I wouldn't want you for a neighbour.

Bad gut feelings are bad gut feelings. I have more respect for that than anything else you've said, to be honest.

What is has to do with my daughter is that I don't want my neighbours talking about her looking like a little stripper when she does her sexy poses and stuff. I don't even know where she picked that stuff up, but the odds of it being through sexual abuse are vanishingly small (she's with us pretty much 24/7).

Bad gut feelings are one thing. But, as I've said _repeatedly_, I don't see the things you've posted about (aside from the little brother) as red flags of any kind and a couple of them apply directly to my dd. Therefore, I'm forced to assume that if you were my neighbour, you'd also be talking about my dd's "stripper like" behaviour and "strutting" and "miniature super model" looks (dd is also one of those kids who never really looked like a baby - she has quite an adult little face, in many ways). It creeps me out.

And, no - I do not believe that a 5 year old can be "intentionally seductive", although I know what you mean when you say it. Once again, I find the way you phrase it really offensive to the 5 year old in question.

FWIW: A guy got _off_ on molestation charges here years ago, because the judge felt that the victim was behaving in a provocative manner. She was three. I have _serious_ problems with characterizing children's behaviour in these terms.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
SB~ I have always enjoyed your posts but in this case I just have to scratch my head. It just seems like you are unable to separate your DD from this girl and these circumstances. You keep bringing up that your DD this or that and are unable to step back and look at the entire picture. Thats fine. We deal with what we know. What I fail to understand is why the recommendation to just be cautious is so outlandish to some people here. I. Don't. Get. It.

Why should I separate my dd? It's obvious that several of you, were you my neighbours, would be speculating about what kind of vile things were going on in my home, behind closed doors. You'll all turn around and claim you're not saying that, but you _are_.

If the OP has a gut feeling that something's wrong, I can respect that. If she mentioned that in her first post, I must have missed it. I wasn't basing my comments on gut feelings at all. I was basing my comments on a short list of behaviour that doesn't raise any red flags with me, that applies to a great extent to my dd, and that has resulted in labels and descriptions that turn my stomach being applied to a 5 year old girl.

I also just looked at the list someone posted, and most of this girl's behaviour doesn't fit into the second _or_ third list, imo. It's either first list (eg. the lifting her top) or not there at all. So, again - where are the red flags?

I also have no idea what "be cautious" even means. She's already monitoring this girl's behaviour. So, what's she supposed to do now?


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:

FWIW: A guy got _off_ on molestation charges here years ago, because the judge felt that the victim was behaving in a provocative manner. She was three. I have _serious_ problems with characterizing children's behaviour in these terms.
Ok _*WTF?????*_ See I have no problem with using those terms because hey let's call a duck a duck if that what it appears to be it is reasonable to describe it that way, IMO (not to say it IS what is going on but to use those terms to describe something isn't an issue for me). But what in the world would posses a judge to think that a GROWN MAN is ever in the right in taking something in a sexual manner from a CHILD????? A toddler, even. That makes no sense. None. It is the old school train of thought, IMO. "oh he couldn't help himself because she was flaunting it" uke There is no excuse for that. To use the wording as an excuse is.... ridiculous (the judge, not you). I don't care if she had nipple tassels on and bright red platform heels and was doing a striptease to make Carmen Electra jealous she is 3 for crying out loud. That's just........ disgusting because it doesn't surpise me in the least.

The truth is children can and do behave sexually out of innocence in general because it is a part of growing up (sometimes abuse is involved but not always which I'm pretty sure we have established on this thread







) but I am failing to see how that excuses an adult taking advantage of it.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
Thanks for posting that. Very interesting. I am not surprised that she is more the middle category. That is what I was thinking this whole time. Potential red flags.

She's what? How is she in the middle category?


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

SB~ we're just going to keep going in circles because obviously you are offended. Sorry you are. This isn't about you or your DD. It's not about the general sexual actions of children in innocence. If you can't see the red flags ok that's fine. We have pointed them out and have shared stories of cases where this girl's behavior has indeed shown an issue. There is not much more to be said. It's just going to keep on circling 'round and 'round. So you can't see it. Alrighty then. Still there have been more than just a few of us who can. And still we are not suggesting anything more than the OP keeping an eye on things. Not only that but when abuse was suggested it wasn't automatically by the parents so again not seeing your issue. But I am willing to put that down as another "agree to disagree". It happens.

Have a great weekend!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *magstphil* 
Ok _*WTF?????*_ See I have no problem with using those terms because hey let's call a duck a duck if that what it appears to be it is reasonable to describe it that way, IMO (not to say it IS what is going on but to use those terms to describe something isn't an issue for me). But what in the world would posses a judge to think that a GROWN MAN is ever in the right in taking something in a sexual manner from a CHILD????? A toddler, even. That makes no sense. None. It is the old school train of thought, IMO. "oh he couldn't help himself because she was flaunting it" uke There is no excuse for that. To use the wording as an excuse is.... ridiculous (the judge, not you). I don't care if she had nipple tassels on and bright red platform heels and was doing a striptease to make Carmen Electra jealous she is 3 for crying out loud. That's just........ disgusting because it doesn't surpise me in the least.

The truth is children can and do behave sexually out of innocence in general because it is a part of growing up (sometimes abuse is involved but not always which I'm pretty sure we have established on this thread







) but I am failing to see how that excuses an adult taking advantage of it.

Well, most of Vancouver wanted the judge lynched, so I think most rational people tend to agree with you, yk? I honestly found myself wondering if he's a deviant himself. (This was a long time ago, and I think he retired shortly after that, as there was a s**t storm of negative public sentiment.)

Anyway...that's some of where my issues with the language are coming from. Whether or not this girl has been sexually abused in any way (and I'm fairly sure she's at least seen tv shows or movies that she shouldn't have, but maybe/probably not porn - where that would fall on the abuse spectrum is a little subjective, I think), I have major problems with the language the OP (and some other posters) has used about her. My personal opinion is that it contributes to a very warped view of childhood sexuality, and it bothers me _immensely_. Some of that was shaped by the case I mentioned above, but it's also a feeling I've had for a very long time (30 years, maybe?) for other reasons. If a child is acting in an overly adult sexual fashion, let's call it that...not "seductive", "like a stripper", etc. That language applied to a child's sexuality really bothers me, and I do think it contributes to some screwy ways of looking at children who are exploring sexuality.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
Do you not believe that a 5 year old can be intentionally seductive?

I don't think that a 5 year old can be intentionally seductive, because I don't think a 5 year old knows what it means to seduce.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Well, most of Vancouver wanted the judge lynched, so I think most rational people tend to agree with you, yk? I honestly found myself wondering if he's a deviant himself. (This was a long time ago, and I think he retired shortly after that, as there was a s**t storm of negative public sentiment.)

The judges stance is not too uncommon among the older generation. I know from stories from my mother and aunt when they were molested the man told people they had flaunted it and there were more than a few people that were like "oh ok then that makes perfect sense"







:

Quote:

Anyway...that's some of where my issues with the language are coming from. Whether or not this girl has been sexually abused in any way (and I'm fairly sure she's at least seen tv shows or movies that she shouldn't have, but maybe/probably not porn - where that would fall on the abuse spectrum is a little subjective, I think), I have major problems with the language the OP (and some other posters) has used about her. My personal opinion is that it contributes to a very warped view of childhood sexuality, and it bothers me _immensely_. Some of that was shaped by the case I mentioned above, but it's also a feeling I've had for a very long time (30 years, maybe?) for other reasons. If a child is acting in an overly adult sexual fashion, let's call it that...not "seductive", "like a stripper", etc. That language applied to a child's sexuality really bothers me, and I do think it contributes to some screwy ways of looking at children who are exploring sexuality.
I can understand the discomfort but when people are attempting to describe things they use wording they know, ykwim? That's why in describing it I have no issue. Now if the child was being labeled as such or being called a name like that then yeah that's a different issue. But it's different in saying "she was acting _like_ a stripper" and "she is no better than a little stripper" or something like that.


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## holyhelianthus (Jul 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
I don't think that a 5 year old can be intentionally seductive, because I don't think a 5 year old knows what it means to seduce.

Yes very true but I also do think a 5 year old can act seductive in an innocent sense for several reasons (abuse, seeing it on TV, watching a friend/family member, and on and on) but all coming down to mimicking in order to explore his/her sexuality, boundaries, etc.


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## Rico'sAlice (Mar 19, 2006)

It's so hard to judge over the internet the "tone" of something we didn't see. Could everything added together point to something "not right" going on? Of course it is a possibility. But no one thing really sounds like it definitely is an issue in terms of sex. The whole young kids "supervising" toddlers thing is a whole other thing. That IS scary to me b/c of cars and such.
Anyway, I was posting b/c I actually did ask my (boy) best friend if he wanted to have sex when I was 6/7. I had just learned about it from my mom. And while she talked about it being for adults or married people or something, it didn't really occur to her to make a point about it not being something to do as a child. So I asked my friend if he knew what sex was and when he didn't I told him what it was and asked if he wanted to try it. He said no, he'd rather keep playing with the Legos. Sometime later, but within the same summer or so, I also asked my "boyfriend" if he wanted to have sex (he already knew what it was) and he said "maybe later" but we got too busy doing other stuff and never got around to it.
I had not been abused, and my parents were not overly sexual around the house, I hadn't seen any risqué TV or movies. I was just the type that wanted to try everything I'd ever heard about. I wasn't acting on any sort of lust-type feelings, I was just super curious.
I asking to have sex in a more "dirty talk" way with specific actions mentioned, "I want to unbutton your pants, etc. etc." would be more indicative of something going on. (Maybe not abuse, but exposure to too much adult material.)


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
I don't think that a 5 year old can be intentionally seductive, because I don't think a 5 year old knows what it means to seduce.

Not a healthy 5 year old, but a kid who has endured a lot of sexual abuse? I think they could. I think in really sad situations where the child is emotionally neglected on top of being sexually abused they might learn to be seductive as a coping mechanism. I have certainly seen that with girls as young as 7, so 5.5 doesn't seem impossible. Uncommon, I would certainly hope so!

Not that I am saying that is the case with this girl. I am really on the fence about whether she is doing anything abnormal considering she does seem to watch a lot of mature TV and Movies.


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## missjessicajames (Jan 23, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spicyrock* 
It doesn't sound like she will get beaten. Spanking isn't okay, remember? Unless it's adults in the bedroom...

I just wanted to share a personal story, before anyone calls schools or cps or the neighborhood watch. When I was probably about six or seven I "played doctor" with the neighborhood kids. All of us were willing participants (if anything, I was one of the more reluctant kids) engaging in what I now realize is totally normal exploratory play. This went on for a couple of weeks, and took place in a variety of ways, until one of the girls felt guilty and told her mom. My mom was a pot-smoking hippie and poor, and when all of the neighborhood moms got together to freak out about what had been going on, she wasn't invited to the party. Guess who got blamed for the whole thing? Me. They all decided that I was oversexed and probably abused. I became the neighborhood social pariah. They called the school, and all of my teachers, one by one, started asking me if I was being abused by my stepfather. Everyone- the whole town, adults and children- found out. My mom was the only person who assured me that sex play was normal and that she had done it too, and so had all of my teachers and everyone else, and they were just making a big deal out of it because they wanted to point fingers. The experience was so utterly humiliating that I moved to another town and deemed this to be my biggest, deepest, darkest secret until I was in my twenties.


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## mutchkin21 (Jun 7, 2009)

I have worked with pre school and school age kids (2 to 12 year olds).

I have had to discuss phrases and physical situations with many parents over the years. Not just with pre k, but also with some of my 5th and 6th graders. It is never easy and it won't ever be easy to discuss these things with other parents.

Some parents took it well and was equally concerned, while other parents told me to mind my own business or brushed it off as "kids will be kids".

Kids are going to be curious. They will experiement. You will see Johnny kissing Sue on the lips at age 5. You will see Johnny and Sue asking questions about their body, about babies and you will have them repeat some words they hear from their parents. (You know those commericals aired a few years ago where the kids would say something embarressing to strangers while the parent is mortified?) lol. But as someone else posted on here, there is three levels of age appropriateness. You will hear the "show me yours and I will show you mine".

I remember doing that in K school! It wasn't because of sex itself. It was because of curiousity. Why he has a penis and I don't? I even asked my brother, 2 years older than me, to see his because I wanted to figure out how to get one myself. (I thought it was unfair to urinate sitting down). It was harmless thinking, but others could of quickly jump to conclusions that could of turned my family upside down.

I had a fascination with penis's in a non sexual way. I thought they were the coolest thing. All females had vaginas. Boring. I wanted to write my name in snow is all I kept saying lol! But that was my typical curious 5 year old thinking. Luckly I had great understanding teachers and my mom sat me down to explain in detail what makes me different and me to appreciate/like what I have etc.

So these situations should always be taken with care. I think the OP is trying her best to do that and good she is trying to get feedback instead of jumping the gun on it.

When in doubt, talk to a teacher or talk to the doctor. Ask these questions. "Is this normal of this child's age. Given her home background from your view point? Is there something I can do or say? Will this affect my child and how do I explain to my child?".

I have had true sexual abuse cases and I have had just some overly educated kids. One in particular was 8. She knew of every drug (illegal),
"boyfriends" issues between her mom, sister and aunt (abuse, cheating etc) and this girl was very educated on sex (positions to preventives: condoms etc). I feared for this girl. She knew more than I knew in high school.

I had to be very careful with that one as it also had race into it. So I let my boss handle it as I am very uneasy about handling issues that include race or traditions as that is when heated debates arise. (little girl answered my question of how come she knew so much, etc. She explained her family is black and intermix with mexicans on another side. So, it is tradition to know and do these things by 13. Then went on how her dad is in jail, how her mom thinks it is good she is exposed to the "real world" and accepting her family for who they are etc).

I have had 5th graders in the office confiding that they might be pregnant to the nurse. Sadly, I only remember one actually being pregnant. No abuse at home (good Christian family), she just wanted to impress a guy she had a crush on (6th grader). He came from a family...lets say his father is in prison for beating/raping his mom infront of him and he thinks the world of his dad. My manager was pushing for therapy as to our surprise, he wasn't recieving any.

Another 5th grader was being explained the birds and bee's in detail (her mom opt out on sex ed in 5th grade) as the mom was expecting. The girl thought if her mom is expecting, she might be too as they got their period about the same time. (to say the little details I knew on this situation). Some parents are not able to explain clearly or have the ability to.

With this 5 year old girl, the possibilities are out there on what could exactly be going on. Innocent or could very well be a red flag something inappropriate is going on.

It does matter their thought process, but it shouldn't be the deciding factor in whether you discuss this with her parents or not.

Every child is being raised differently. Some are raised with parental growth development talks while others base their teachings off of radio, tv or peers.

This girl is set up for some sexual peer pressure and future sexual situations. You do have a right to be concerned for this little girl. You are a responsible loving parent who has a gut feeling something isn't right. I don't blame you for wanting to protect this little girl as much as you want to protect your little boy.

No one should be questioning or belitting you for your concerns. It is better to be concern than to brush it off. That is how children go un-detected when they are abused, raped or exposed to things way too soon.

You are not telling them how to parent. You are expressing concern for what she has said to your son.

I do suggest you discuss this with her parents. At least letting them know she asked for sex and a simple question of "Does she know what sex is, so my son can tell her no with out causing any confusion as he is begining to know what it is as well etc?".

If these parents are immature and get upset, I think it is a clear sign to keep your son away from play dates. As far as inappropriate watching (5 year old watching her 2 year old sibling), that would be in the hands of CPS at that point. If you see something or hear something (not rumor), you can report it.

Sometimes you are only limited to your child as there is only so much you can do. Only prayer is your next step she will be okay.


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## rhubarbarin (May 2, 2008)

While I agree you can't be too careful - so many kids are sexually abused - I was obsessed with sex as young child and I said such things to my friends. There was never any inappropriate touching (did kiss a lot of friends when I was little, but no tongue!) and I wasn't sexually active until age 19. So.. could be a big deal, could mean nothing, depends on the kid. It's normal IMO for children to be curious about sex and say such things, it's even normal to be sexual, but the repercussions of this behavior can be seriously negative so it's best to supervise.

ETA: To those who would wonder how kids know about this stuff.. do you remember being a kid?? Personally I was raised in conservative Christian home, didn't even have a tv for years and didn't see a PG-13 movie til after I was 13.. the only thing I knew about sex was how babies were made, saw animals mating a few times and what I heard from other kids. That was enough to instill a keen interest! You should have seen my kindergarten! We pretended to be dogs and humped each other at recess, all practiced the curse words we knew and trying to hold up our middle fingers, rumors were rife (Andy poked Clarissa in the bellybutton!! The bellybutton is where you have sex and babies come out!!!), most of us paired up into GFs and BFs... ages 4-6 are often very sexual, after that boys and girls decide the other is gross and settle down until puberty. My parents had absolutely no idea about any of this.


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## mysticmomma (Feb 8, 2005)

Did you talk to the mom?


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