# How do you react when someone threatens to spank in front of you?



## minkajane (Jun 5, 2005)

I work in a maternity clothing shop. Since we don't get a lot of business we usually have only one associate in the shop at a time. So I was the only one in the store when this woman came in with her young (3-ish) daughter. The girl was sniffling slightly as they came in and the mom snapped at her at least three times in the five minutes they were in the store that if she didn't stop crying, she'd spank her.

I tried to just ignore the situation, but I honestly don't know how I'd react if she actually spanked her. I have this picture in my head of either saying in a shocked voice "Please do not hit your child in this store!" or saying in a cold, firm voice, "This store is a violence-free zone. Please do not hit your child here." I don't like to think that I'd just freeze up and say nothing, but that's the most likely reaction. I was hit my whole childhood and it's ingrained in me that it was my fault if I got hit and doubly my fault if anybody found out about it.

What would you do if you were alone in the store and somebody spanked their kid in front of you? Would you say something and risk a confrontation or a complaint to corporate? Or would you just ignore it, since it's highly unlikely anything you say is going to make the parent stop spanking and they make take it out on the kid later anyway?


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

If you're at work, you might first ask yourself how important your job is to you and form a response from there. No place I have ever worked would've backed me up if I said something to a mom who was threatening to spank. I'm pretty sure unless an actual spanking got REALLY ugly or threats became clear cut verbal abuse, I would have been on my own and in trouble if the customer complained. That said, if someone went beyond a few swats on the behind, I'm mouthy and would say something anyway.

The FIRST thing I'd try (and have tried) is customer-servicing the hell out of them. Hi, how are you? What nice weather we're having. Hello, what's your name...if Mom is just stressed to her limit, she may appreciate you distracting her kid. If that clearly isn't going over well, back off but at least she knows you're paying attention. That may be all the reminder she needs to take a deep breath and re-set her attitude. I'd say most of the time this has gone over well if the mom is just flustered and frustrated and the kid is just kind of whiney and over shopping.

I know there have been times I've been in a low parenting moment and some cheerful sales person will kind of remind me that ok, we're in public, the kid is tired and I need to just relax and get over it. Of course, I have also told people that I will let them know if I need them and given them my very worst stink eye.


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## Just Elsa (May 18, 2009)

I prefer that random strangers not challenge my parenting skills when I'm shopping and try to have the same respect for other people. I don't want to hear it about my choice to homeschool, which some people feel about the same way I do about spanking, so I mind my own business when strangers make legal parenting choices I disagree with.

ETA: If a store clerk did it, I'd be having a conversation with her boss about why they had lost my business. That's so screamingly inappropriate I'd be really pissed.


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## minkajane (Jun 5, 2005)

Like I said, I did not say anything and she did not spank the child. I just can't help but cringe at the thought of turning the other cheek as an innocent child gets hit in front of me.


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## Just Elsa (May 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *minkajane* 
Like I said, I did not say anything and she did not spank the child. I just can't help but cringe at the thought of turning the other cheek as an innocent child gets hit in front of me.

I don't like it either, but the fact is lots of us on this forum do things that others consider to be over the line into abuse and neglect. If we want the freedom to homeschool or to refuse to vaccinate our kids we also have to accept that others have a right to CIO or spank. We can hate those practices and think they're abusive, but I guarantee for every person we line up who feels that way there are at least as many who are equally against some of our choices. We can try to help our friends and family make good choices but we are not the parenting police for strangers nor do we want to open that barrel of worms.


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## leaveit2beeker (Jun 2, 2009)

Even at 16 months, I try to tell my ds (after the offending parent has left) that 'we' don't hit and what that child was doing that is or isn't acceptable. And believe me, we've run into these situations already, at the street fair or at the indoor playground...I recently saw a 3-4 year old get swatted in his stroller for whining; all the while my son was in his push-car less than two feet away. I just say that 'that mommy doesn't like whining and the boy was whining'. Maybe this is incredibly naive, but I think if I talk to ds what is going on around us, he might be more in-tune to our family 'rules'.

Of course, I'm whispering and it's very tempting to shout but I'd never...*devil horns*


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## MtBikeLover (Jun 30, 2005)

I'm one that will always say something if I see a child being hit in public. However, in this case, I think it is not appropriate for a store clerk to say anything. They choose to shop there and would probably be very offended if someone said something to them. It could result in you losing your job.

If this happens, I'd just offer to play with the child or try to occupy the child while the parent shops. Can you buy a few coloring books and some crayons and offer to let the child color while the mom shops or tries on clothes? Something that really helps my kids when we are shopping and they aren't in a good mood are stickers. A clerk will almost always offer stickers and they become as happy as can be, which helps me become more patient. Maybe you could buy a few sticker sheets and use them as needed.


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## elfimka (Mar 2, 2007)

If I were you, it would make me very angry too. And since she was shopping for maternity clothes, I can only imagine what her daughter will have to go through when the sibling is born and mother's patience reduces even more.

If it happened to me and I was unprepared, I would probably freeze and not do anything, but then come up with millions of things I could have said or done.

But as many mamas pointed out, there is nothing illegal in spanking and we, as moms, really hate when someone intervenes in our methods.

The best thing, I think, would be to somehow let the mother know that you understand how stressed out she is so that she feels you are sympathetic and on her side. Like, just come up, offer help, not in a cheery happy way, but in a way that says "oh I so feel your pain, I know exactly how you feel right now, been there done that " tone of voice. And then distract the child with a toy or coloring book, like people suggested here.

And I know you are not on her side, but if you pretend that you are, she'll chill out a lot faster and the child will remain unspanked (at least for the meanwhile).

So sorry you had to see/hear it.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

My daughter was running wild tonight, not getting in the bath, and I threatened to spank her. (Having zero intention of doing it. Never done it or had the inkling to either.) She stopped and started to cry. Drat. I wasn't expecting that reaction. Of course I regretted it.

I agree with the previous poster of offering sympathy/help to the exasperated parent if you MUST do something. Calling "management" is just annoying... as annoying if I was Bfing in public and someone called management on me. Huff!


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## Astrogirl (Oct 23, 2007)

Everyone has such well thought out answers and much more mature than mine!









Ok, kneejerk reaction? No thinking and just a gut, honest response?

I'd say "You hit that child, and I'll be calling the cops for abuse." Then I would console the child.

Don't flame me. I know that response isn't helpful, but its my honest gut reaction. I live in a country where spanking is illegal, so its absolutely ingrained in me that spanking IS abuse, and if anything my reaction would be a tiny reminder to both the parent and child, that hitting *might* (gasp) be _wrong_.


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## Equuskia (Dec 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just Elsa* 
I don't like it either, but the fact is lots of us on this forum do things that others consider to be over the line into abuse and neglect. If we want the freedom to homeschool or to refuse to vaccinate our kids we also have to accept that others have a right to CIO or spank. We can hate those practices and think they're abusive, but I guarantee for every person we line up who feels that way there are at least as many who are equally against some of our choices. We can try to help our friends and family make good choices but we are not the parenting police for strangers nor do we want to open that barrel of worms.

I don't think anyone should have the right to hit their children. After all, if I hit you, it's considered assault and I could be jailed. If I hit my husband, it's considered domestic violence. Hitting my dog will land me a $5000 fine. So why on earth should it be ok to hit my kid, who's small and defenseless?

This isn't a slippery slope. Just because we want the right to not vax and homebirth and homeschool doesn't mean we should sacrifice a child's bodily integrity.

Don't get me started on CIO.


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## Just Elsa (May 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Equuskia* 
I don't think anyone should have the right to hit their children. After all, if I hit you, it's considered assault and I could be jailed. If I hit my husband, it's considered domestic violence. Hitting my dog will land me a $5000 fine. So why on earth should it be ok to hit my kid, who's small and defenseless?

This isn't a slippery slope. Just because we want the right to not vax and homebirth and homeschool doesn't mean we should sacrifice a child's bodily integrity.

Don't get me started on CIO.

And if you read my post you'll see that I am NOT advocating spanking or saying it is right or good. Nowhere did I say it was okay, don't put words in my mouth. THAT isn't okay.

I'm pointing out that as abusive as you think spanking is, someone else thinks not vaxing is. There are lots of people out there who think your kids should be taken from you if you don't vax. Do you want store clerks telling you you're abusing your kid for that or declaring the store a "no-vax free zone"? Because if we get to harass strangers then we're fair game too.

Whether we agree with the choice is not the issue. It's currently legal most places and there's a limit to what you can say to strangers without being out of line.


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## krystyn33 (May 30, 2006)

Spanking doesn't compare to homebirth or an educated choice to withhold vaccinations, IMO.

There are some great articles here on intervening on behalf of a child in a public place.

I agree with the PP that under that circumstance the best response would be to approach the mom with great customer service, trying to be helpful & deflate the pressure of the situation. Smiling and engaging the child in a positive way might do the trick to deescalate. It is SO hard to see situations like that & I find I get emotional so it is hard to act from a clear-headed place. But I fear an angry or judgmental confrontation would not only get ugly & escalate things, but it might get taken out worse on the child later.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

In that particular situation I'd focus my concern on other patrons and assume a posture of helpfulness. After all, your clientele is pregnant women. If she actually spanked a screaming child I would respond with something like "I'm afraid what you are doing may upset other patrons--is there some way I can help you?".

I highly doubt you would be fired for saying _that_ and she would get the hint that her behavior really wasn't considerate of others. Which it was not


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## dachshundqueen (Dec 17, 2004)

Well my 4 year old effectively deals with this for me and starts getting loud about how "We don't hit people. We need to sit down and talk about what's wrong and then have some quiet time." If the person continues she starts asking really loud questions about, "Why are they hurting their kids? Do they still love them?"

ETA: I'd try to be super friendly to mom and try to divert her attention from whacking her kid. Pretty much interrupting her every time she starts yelling at the kid. "Johnny shut up or.." "Ma'am is there something I can help you find?" "Oh I need, Johnny shut" "I'm sorry I missed what you needed, was it blank?"

Liz


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## pixiekisses (Oct 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Astrogirl* 
Everyone has such well thought out answers and much more mature than mine!









Ok, kneejerk reaction? No thinking and just a gut, honest response?

I'd say "You hit that child, and I'll be calling the cops for abuse." Then I would console the child.

Don't flame me. I know that response isn't helpful, but its my honest gut reaction. I live in a country where spanking is illegal, so its absolutely ingrained in me that spanking IS abuse, and if anything my reaction would be a tiny reminder to both the parent and child, that hitting *might* (gasp) be _wrong_.

Indeed. That would be my response as well.
(Also living in a country where spanking is illegal.)


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

Ugh. My SIL is a hitter, and it sickens me.

I can't say anything. I sit and watch helplessly. If she weren't my SIL, I wouldn't ever be around her. I can't tolerate violence, especially against children. I hate it. With every fiber of my being.

And if anyone, including my SIL, laid a hand on MY kids, they'd be in court. I wouldn't hesitate.

Now, if I were in the store, I think I would've interjected. I would've asked her to stop abusing her child. And I would've used that word too. I wouldn't care. Just like I would interject if a man was hitting his wife. Or a boy his girlfriend. It's all the SAME THING, no matter what pretty word you want to attach to it.

JMO, of course.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

Spanking doesn't compare to homebirth or an educated choice to withhold vaccinations, IMO.
That's our opinion here at MDC. Many, many people think that having a homebirth is terribly dangerous or that not vaccinating could kill your child. I read threads here all the time where people are giving an MDC mom a hard time about parenting choices.

In the OP's situation, I would go with the customer servicing that another poster recommended. If it were someone I knew, I would say "Please don't" and then leave if they did hit them. A stranger in public? Probably the "Please don't."


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
In that particular situation I'd focus my concern on other patrons and assume a posture of helpfulness. After all, your clientele is pregnant women. If she actually spanked a screaming child I would respond with something like "I'm afraid what you are doing may upset other patrons--is there some way I can help you?".

I highly doubt you would be fired for saying _that_ and she would get the hint that her behavior really wasn't considerate of others. Which it was not









good advice on the store clerk end of things.

as a patron I would say something.

all in all that child needs the message sent that hitting is not okay and they don't deserve it. If a grown woman gets her feelings hurt it will bother me a lot less then a child being physically hurt and having their spirit crushed. and that child needs to know they don't deserve it, even if the parent thinks they do or think its no one else's business. guess what, if I have to see it or hear about it it is now my business and I will say something. not to mention, it's the child's business too. the whole thing just makes me ill, how children are seen as lesser creatures of this world, the ones who are most vulnerable ad defenseless and no one is willing to defend them. Sure, we all get unwanted advice sometimes. Personally, I dont mind. I don't have to take the unwanted advice and neither does a spanking mama. but the child can still get the message they dont deserve poor treatment. I'm just not in the crowd of "Oh I'll mind my own business while someone hits their child because I dont like it when people tell me my baby doesn't look comfortable in their baby carrier" Nope, people will keep making those comments, and I'll keep not caring, and my baby will keep being comfortable. at the same time, I'll keep saying something to those who spank, and they may keep not caring (or get mad at me) but their child will get the message they didn't deserve to be hurt. To me, its just all worth it. We (society as a whole) are so worried about upsetting a full grown adult who knows how they deserve to be treated in life (but obviously doesnt know how their children deserve to be treated)... but not upset that a child who is still learning this world is being taught that they deserve to be hit and everyone who sees it thinks nothing of it. Just another day, la de dah, the sky is blue, the grass is green, and a child is being hit.









In my opinion, it is my business when a child is being hit. They say the children are out future and sorry but I dont want my future or my childrens future in the hands of someone who thinks they deserve to be hit or thinks that people weaker then them deserve to be hit, etc.


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## minkajane (Jun 5, 2005)

Wow am I having bad luck! It happened AGAIN today. Different family. This kid kept making noises and apparently it was annoying his aunt. After a bit she said if he didn't stop, she'd spank him. His mom and grandma made a big deal out of "Oh, a spanking from Aunt J! That's pretty bad!" The kid didn't end up being spanked and I just busied myself putting stuff away and ignored the situation. It sucked because other than that, they were really sweet and the mom was carrying around her 6-day-old in a Moby and nursing him while she was in there.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just Elsa* 
And if you read my post you'll see that I am NOT advocating spanking or saying it is right or good. Nowhere did I say it was okay, don't put words in my mouth. THAT isn't okay.

I'm pointing out that as abusive as you think spanking is, someone else thinks not vaxing is. There are lots of people out there who think your kids should be taken from you if you don't vax. Do you want store clerks telling you you're abusing your kid for that or declaring the store a "no-vax free zone"? Because if we get to harass strangers then we're fair game too.

Whether we agree with the choice is not the issue. It's currently legal most places and there's a limit to what you can say to strangers without being out of line.

how does doing something with the intention to hurt a child (spanking) compare to doing something with the intention to protect a child (not vaccinating)?

how does doing something to a child against their will (spanking) compare to doing not doing something against a child's will (not vaccinating)?

how does health care choices (childbirth vaccines) compare to intentional physical harm (spanking)?

how does "i dont want to see a child be spanked" (when you see it) to "i dont want to a see a child be not vaccinated" (which you can't actually see or even have to experience)?

how does "a child should know they don't deserve to be hit" compare to "a child should be vaccinated"?

really and truly, these concepts are worlds away in my mind, and its a desperate plea to try to group them together. We are talking about the right of a person for self versus the right of a person over another person.

With not vaccinating we are talking about _not_ making a choice over some one elses body. with spanking we are talking about being allowed to make a choice over someone elses body.

with spanking we are talking about doing something to someone that is against a humans rights (even if the law doesn't recognize as children with rights yet,,, at one point women and african americans didnt have rights either... didn't mean that was okay how they were all treated). with not vaccinating we are talking about not taking away the right.

See, with spanking, its about another person feeling they have the RIGHT to hurt another person - which is only legal here because of age and relationship. with not vaccinating, we are leaving the choice up to the individual to decide as an adult if they want to vaccinate.

If you want to compare, it would be like comparing the right







to spank with the right _to_ vaccinate, (not with the right to _not_ vaccinate)

and really the rights on not vaccinating are limited. many people have to lie about why they arent vaccinating. They need an exemption to skip vaccines. I dont see anyone needing an exemption to be allowed to hit their children. they just do it.


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## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Equuskia* 
I don't think anyone should have the right to hit their children. After all, *if I hit you, it's considered assault and I could be jailed. If I hit my husband, it's considered domestic violence. Hitting my dog will land me a $5000 fine. So why on earth should it be ok to hit my kid,* who's small and defenseless?

This isn't a slippery slope. Just because we want the right to not vax and homebirth and homeschool doesn't mean we should sacrifice a child's bodily integrity.

Don't get me started on CIO.

My bold.


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## Just Elsa (May 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4inMyHeart3inArms* 
how does doing something with the intention to hurt a child (spanking) compare to doing something with the intention to protect a child (not vaccinating)?

Because in both cases the parent truly believes they are doing what is in their child's best interests in the long run even though other people think they are abusive and nuts. Do you seriously think the people who spank go, "oh, this is bad for my kid!" and do it anyway? They're wrong, but they think it is ultimately to the child's benefit, just like you think with holding vaccines is to a child's benefit. You, do get that right? Not everyone who disagrees with you is a monster. People make bad parenting choices with the best of intentions and sometimes it isn't our job to tell them all about how bad a job we think they're doing.

Not vaxing is making a choice for your child, just like vaxing is. Pretending inaction is not a choice is a way of avoiding accountability. You are free to say it's the right choice and even to make it for your kids but don't pretend you aren't choosing for them. If it's a valid choice and a good choice, stand up for it.

This is starting to get down the rabbit hole absurd.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I think you would need to talk to your boss and put up signs about the store being a violence free place before you react in any way at work. I personally would love to see stores that are violent free zones and are peaceful to be in. I would not interfere though unless I was enforcing a work rule.
I agree with Just Elsa that there are many variations on what people think is abusive to children. I don't feel like I hold all the answers and can absolutely say that someone is messing their child up for life based on seeing them pregnant and fed up one time.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just Elsa* 
Because in both cases the parent truly believes they are doing what is in their child's best interests in the long run even though other people think they are abusive and nuts. Do you seriously think the people who spank go, "oh, this is bad for my kid!" and do it anyway? They're wrong, but they think it is ultimately to the child's benefit, just like you think with holding vaccines is to a child's benefit. You, do get that right? Not everyone who disagrees with you is a monster. People make bad parenting choices with the best of intentions and sometimes it isn't our job to tell them all about how bad a job we think they're doing.

Not vaxing is making a choice for your child, just like vaxing is. Pretending inaction is not a choice is a way of avoiding accountability. You are free to say it's the right choice and even to make it for your kids but don't pretend you aren't choosing for them. If it's a valid choice and a good choice, stand up for it.

This is starting to get down the rabbit hole absurd.

i disagree. my child can choose as an adult to go get vaccines (they can't take them away though) but my child as an adult cannot take back a spanking if I were to spank them... you are taking the rights to someones BODY away. like i said i can see comparing spanking with making a child be vaccinated, but not with not vaccinating.

and really, saying its in a childs best interest is a cop out _in most cases_. most parents who spank will say they wish there was another way, it's very clear that spanking is not the best way, but may parents don't know any other way. there are a few who yes, probably think they are doing their child a favor. again this is different though from "im doing a favor but doing something against your will" (spanking) and "i'm not going to be the one to risk your life so you don't get chicken pox, but you can get that vaccine when you are older if you want"

they are not comparable - and most countries who have a ban against spanking offer MORE freedom in the area of vaccines. where as here is like "you are allowed to hurt your child by spanking, and we will also try to ENCOURAGE -and nearly force- you to do other things that you may feel hurt your child (vaccinate)"

allowing a parent to spank is letting them make the choice for their child
allowing a parent to decide not to vaccinate is letting them let their child make the choice for themselves.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

and yes people who hit children are, in that moment, a monster. Is that who they are all the time? I'm sure they arent. From what I understand plenty of serial killers are perfectly nice people when they aren't killing too. Doesn't mean when they do a bad act that they arent bad in that moment. We don't have to agree, I'm okay with that, but I hopefully you can accept there is no way anyone is going to make me agree that a parent should have the right to intentionally inflict pain on their child and try to dress up the abuse in a pretty word such as "disicpline".

I do however, understand some parents loose their cool, or need to learn another way. but I am speaking of people who determine to do these actions and make no effort to change. to think its okay to treat a child that way. they can think that if they want, but I dont have to keep my mouth shut when I see it and I can say something about it. They can think its okay for their child to be hurt, but their child doesnt need to think they deserve that treatment or that it's okay. It's to everyones benefit if a child can learn early in life that the pain they suffer at the hands of their parents was never deserved.

and really anyone can think anything is abusive if they want to. someone wants to think not vaccinating is abusive, well some people think vaccinating is. I happen to think spanking is abusive.

I'm all for a persons right to choose - FOR THEMSELVES - but to choose for someone else to such an extent I am not for that. Once upon a time it was not considered abuse for a husband to spank his wife. Should the men have been able to keep that right? Because they lose the right to spank, did we lose other marital rights? No. The only "marital right" that was lost was the right to hit your spouse. I am not saying we should tell people how to parent - but not using yourself to hurt another person seems like a pretty clearcut basic right. Perhaps children don't get to make their own medical decisions (though mine do, but whatever) but there should be no "option" to be the SOURCE of your child's suffering. what is the source of a child who is sick who is not vaccinated (and also many who are)? the disease. what is the source of a child who died from a vaccine reaction? the vaccine, possibly the person administering it if the dosage is wrong. what is the source of a child who is hurt by a spanking? the person spanking them.

If you don't want rabbit holes don't dig em. You brought up the vaccine comparison.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4inMyHeart3inArms* 
and yes people who hit children are, in that moment, a monster. Is that who they are all the time? I'm sure they arent. From what I understand plenty of serial killers are perfectly nice people when they aren't killing too. Doesn't mean when they do a bad act that they arent bad in that moment. We don't have to agree, I'm okay with that, but I hopefully you can accept there is no way anyone is going to make me agree that a parent should have the right to intentionally inflict pain on their child and try to dress up the abuse in a pretty word such as "disicpline".

I do however, understand some parents loose their cool, or need to learn another way. but I am speaking of people who determine to do these actions and make no effort to change. to think its okay to treat a child that way. they can think that if they want, but I dont have to keep my mouth shut when I see it and I can say something about it. They can think its okay for their child to be hurt, but their child doesnt need to think they deserve that treatment or that it's okay. It's to everyones benefit if a child can learn early in life that the pain they suffer at the hands of their parents was never deserved.

and really anyone can think anything is abusive if they want to. someone wants to think not vaccinating is abusive, well some people think vaccinating is. I happen to think spanking is abusive.

I'm all for a persons right to choose - FOR THEMSELVES - but to choose for someone else to such an extent I am not for that. Once upon a time it was not considered abuse for a husband to spank his wife. Should the men have been able to keep that right? Because they lose the right to spank, did we lose other marital rights? No. The only "marital right" that was lost was the right to hit your spouse. I am not saying we should tell people how to parent - but not using yourself to hurt another person seems like a pretty clearcut basic right. Perhaps children don't get to make their own medical decisions (though mine do, but whatever) but there should be no "option" to be the SOURCE of your child's suffering. what is the source of a child who is sick who is not vaccinated (and also many who are)? the disease. what is the source of a child who died from a vaccine reaction? the vaccine, possibly the person administering it if the dosage is wrong. what is the source of a child who is hurt by a spanking? the person spanking them.

If you don't want rabbit holes don't dig em. You brought up the vaccine comparison.

If you attack people and equate them to serial killers you will be written off as a person who isn't in touch with reality and you may make things worse for a child who's parents are even more cruel to them once they are at home. There have been other threads where people talked about how unsafe it made them when people spoke up. Kids who grow up in families where they are spanked often don't think it is wrong and they talk about how other kids deserved to be spanked. Ranting marginalizes you not the people you rant against, it makes it hard to get credibility and hard for people to identify with you. I hope that you have a calmer, more collected response when you actually interfere with other people's parenting because you really could be putting kids at risk without making any dent in how they view hitting as a punishment.

I would also like to know what you are doing to promote laws against spanking. You feel that spankers are on the same moral plane as serial killers so I am assuming that you are doing something to work against that because to do otherwise when you hold such deep views about the morality of spanking would be deeply immoral, unless of course you don't view serial killings as a bad thing.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

I don't go up to people and equate them serial killers, I am saying only that ALL people (or at least most) are sometimes good and sometimes bad. Even the worst people are sometimes good, and even the best people are sometimes bad.

If I am crazy for thinking that then oh well I'm crazy 

I find the best route to changing laws on spanking is to start locally, because you need to get local government officials on your side, and that starts with community. If you want some help on where to start I'd be glad to help. I started a parenting group in my community that I run for free. I purchased a kit through How to talk so kids will listen. I passed out flyers at local schools and people can attend for free of their own free will and learn other ways.

Also, get information out there. You can order brochures online (let me know if you want to know where) and then you can leave them places like gymnastics centers, schools, etc if they let you. of course it depends on that place and the brochure if they will let you, some places don't want anti spanking propaganda floating around.

I am aware of the "worse behind closed doors theories" but guess what? those parents are worse behind closed doors whether I say something or not. I don't think my saying something will stop the parent from hitting the child, though face to face I do take a gentle approach of trying to help the parent and child in hopes that they may rethink their ways. The point of speaking up is the general message sent to the child - that they dont DESERVE to be treated that way. That there is something wrong with what their parents do to them. Their parents will hit or abuse them whether I say something or not - but only if someone speaks up will they learn its not necesary or deserved treatment.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4inMyHeart3inArms* 
I don't go up to people and equate them serial killers, I am saying only that ALL people (or at least most) are sometimes good and sometimes bad. Even the worst people are sometimes good, and even the best people are sometimes bad.

If I am crazy for thinking that then oh well I'm crazy 

I find the best route to changing laws on spanking is to start locally, because you need to get local government officials on your side, and that starts with community. If you want some help on where to start I'd be glad to help. I started a parenting group in my community that I run for free. I purchased a kit through How to talk so kids will listen. I passed out flyers at local schools and people can attend for free of their own free will and learn other ways.

Also, get information out there. You can order brochures online (let me know if you want to know where) and then you can leave them places like gymnastics centers, schools, etc if they let you. of course it depends on that place and the brochure if they will let you, some places don't want anti spanking propaganda floating around.

I am aware of the "worse behind closed doors theories" but guess what? those parents are worse behind closed doors whether I say something or not. I don't think my saying something will stop the parent from hitting the child, though face to face I do take a gentle approach of trying to help the parent and child in hopes that they may rethink their ways. The point of speaking up is the general message sent to the child - that they dont DESERVE to be treated that way. That there is something wrong with what their parents do to them. Their parents will hit or abuse them whether I say something or not - but only if someone speaks up will they learn its not necesary or deserved treatment.

I wouldn't leave stuff like that around because I am not the one calling parents who spank serial murderers. I am glad you are someone standing up for your convictions, but I don't hold those convictions for everyone nor do I feel comfortable deciding that I hold the key to all knowledge.

Calling "worse behind closed doors" a theory spits in the face of the pain other people have experienced and children continue to experience because of people who care more about hearing themselves speak than about the real pain that children suffer. It is a pain that is hard to get over and it is cruel to make it worse. It isn't something that a child will thank you for and as an adult who's mother was like this I wouldn't thank you for it either, nor do I thank you for minimizing my experience to a theory. Many parents who hit are driven to more anger that they take out on children because they are furious that anyone would question them, my mom often talks with shame about the times when she did this to both my brother and myself. Strangers do make things worse. These parents wouldn't be driven there if people like you stuck to passing out pamphlets rather than speaking because they are sure they hold all knowledge in their heads.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i would say something. but then, i have verbal diarrhea. i might also ask my boss if we could put up a sign that said "assault will not be tolerated." and you can point to it every time someone says something about spanking a kid. that wouldn't be passive aggressive would it? o and if people don't like it when there is a small person next to them that makes noise the might want to rethink childbearing.

i agree with everyone who said that children are still people even though the law hasn't figured it out yet.. god forbid we take away peoples rights.. oh wait .. children are people. we need a constitutional amendment. my cat has more rights then peoples kids.

am i the only one who finds it troubling that the aunt was allowed to spank her nephew? they must spank A LOT in that family. if someone had threatened to spank me or my brother my mom would have flipped out.

i thought people did this spanking thing in private? i feel like they should be more ashamed of themselves.. what on earth do they do when the kids are at home?


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Equuskia
I don't think anyone should have the right to hit their children. After all, if I hit you, it's considered assault and I could be jailed. If I hit my husband, it's considered domestic violence. Hitting my dog will land me a $5000 fine. So why on earth should it be ok to hit my kid, who's small and defenseless?

This isn't a slippery slope. Just because we want the right to not vax and homebirth and homeschool doesn't mean we should sacrifice a child's bodily integrity.

Don't get me started on CIO.
Totally agree but it is funny, coming from a spanking home and having spanking friends, how easy it is to rationalize spanking as just another parenting choice, instead of the abuse that is really is. It may be done out of purest intentions, out of the deepest love, but it is still abuse. Spanking has such a benign sound to it- it should be addressed as hitting. There really isn't any justification for hitting children. That being said- I think it would be appropriate for the OP to say something like "please don't" or even better- try to defuse situation.


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## Astrogirl (Oct 23, 2007)

I totally get what people are saying regarding "Parenting choices" and not criticizing for spanking just because we at MDC believe its wrong. I have also used this argument before.

But I would argue that spanking is a different choice from vaxing, etc because in the case of Vaxing, there are NOTABLE professionals and experts that argue on both sides. Its really not clear to anyone which way to go, sometimes, not even the die-hard anti-vaxxers.

In the case of spanking, this is something that is illegal in most western countries (maybe thats an overstatement - I'm obviously including all of Europe), or being considered for legislation in quite a few states and provinces. There is no real NOTABLE expert opinion that says Spanking is beneficial. ALL expert opinion (don't make me use the word Notable again by quoting some crackhead) says it is not. The only thing stopping it from being illegal is because of ignorance of the public and fear of backlash - at the level of the emotions people get about individual rights in North America, its simply too big of a step to spring on people who fear state control. But, mark my words - it WILL be illegal someday.

A lot of us think that we need to educate people on the Vax issue, that they simply don't know what we know. The fact of the matter is, even without the influence of big pharma, there will always be a vax debate - because there will always be good and bad things that come out of vaxing (i'm talking on a global level). You can research Vaxing, and still be confused as ever. Therefore, it also becomes a "gut feeling" issue or looking individually at YOUR own family to see what you are comfortable with, in light of all that you have learned. That truely IS a parenting choice.

However, with spanking (ditto for circumcision) - once you research spanking - the answer is VERY clear. You will never find a child wellness or health agency that condones spanking in the western world. I have spoken to many of my friends about this - from different cultures who spanked - many very much NOT MDC or AP, who look at the logic and say "wow - that's true" and then believe people should NOT have the choice to physically harm their children. This is not a question of "finding what works" for your child - its simply defaulting to an antiquated habit because you don't know any better.

For me, spanking is not a choice like vaxxing, its more like a choice like letting your kids playing with electricitiy - it NEEDS to be corrected.


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## hippiemum21580 (Jul 14, 2007)

Where I live now threats of violence towards children is sadly very common. But where I lived before it was a major penalty. I knew a parent who lost his kids to DSS custody for 3 months becuse he spanked one of them at a grocery store. So,, all of you who say it is not illegal nor a big deal....sometimes that opinion seems to be different depending where the action takes place! Personally at a work place like that I would not risk losing my job but woudl certainly try to distract the mother. Give her an encouraging, empathetic smile, say something like "I have 5 boys at home...I've had long days with them at the store! ha ha!" Then offer teh child a sticker, coloring book and crayons, something to help.
In my own home though I speak right up and tell friends and family of our no tolerance for violence policy. I am VERY firm on this one as I was in an abusive relationship so the violence hits a chord both in me and my sons. I have had people say "Oh, I will just take her to the bathroom" at which I reply "Nope, that's still in my home!"

Quote:


Originally Posted by *minkajane* 
Wow am I having bad luck! It happened AGAIN today. Different family. This kid kept making noises and apparently it was annoying his aunt. After a bit she said if he didn't stop, she'd spank him. His mom and grandma made a big deal out of "Oh, a spanking from Aunt J! That's pretty bad!" The kid didn't end up being spanked and I just busied myself putting stuff away and ignored the situation. It sucked because other than that, they were really sweet and the mom was carrying around her 6-day-old in a Moby and nursing him while she was in there.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

exactly astro girl.

and again, I didn't say "spankers are serial murderers" but miquote me if you think it supports your "side". What I implied (and clarified) was that even "overall bad" people are good sometimes, and that overall good people are bad sometimes. Just because someone is a good parent doesn't mean they are being good while they are spanking. In that moment they are doing a bad thing. It's still a bad action to spank, even if you are a good person, and we all have our own personal demons.

I was raised in a spanking family, and it would have been wonderful to know I didnt deserve it. Again, SPEAK UP. You don't not help a child by keeping your mouth shut. In most cases, you will not cause the child to "get it worse", and if you do you can guarentee that parent would have found another reason to give it to them worse anyway (a spilled glass of milk, don't like the tone in their voice, etc - so you would not be the REASON they got it worse, you would just be the excuse that would save them from blaming the child for not keeping their shoes tied or having a potty accident) When you talk about kids who get it worse at home because someone in public said to the parent "you are having a hard time today, huh? what helps me is blah blah blah." and saying to the child in a low voice "I dont think you deserve to be hit, but pay mind to your mother" (not exactly, but in gist) that is not going to cause a NORMAL spanking person to abuse their child when they get home. If it causes an abusive spanking person to beat their child when they get home that was going to happen whether you said something or not. It's not spitting in anyones face, its sending a message that the child who is abused needs to hear. If you feel find looking the other way and thinking its a parents right to hurt a child then that is your choice. I will continue to advocate for children. Sad american mindset, in over 20 other countries spanking is illegal. Because it is legal here, people defend that we deserve to have the choice. Again, men once had the choice to hit their wives, and that didn't go away because no one said anything about it.

It's a sad irony that the people who think its NOT okay to hit children are the ones who are seen as crazy. I am seen as crazy because I think its just as bad to hit a child as it is to hit a spouse. Yes, I'm the crazy one, not the person hitting someone who is 1/4 their size with much less emotional maturity


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Here's the other side. I once had a store clerk tell me that I *should* spank my son. He was 18 months old at the time and yeah, cranky. We were visiting for my sister's graduation, and as those things go, there were lots of get-togethers, tons of family members, and he was overwhelmed. I had forgotten shoes and had to pick some up. When he started crying, the clerk said he was too big to act like that and needed a spanking. I sat my shoes on the counter, said "thanks for reminding my why I moved away from here," and walked out (sans shoes). All of that is to say that stepping in because a parent says "if you do that, you'll get a spanking" is similar to me.

It's not your place as the store clerk to do that. Now someone at a store did once call the police because my mom spanked my sister in the store, so that's definitely something I've seen happen. In the case of an actual spanking in the store, I think you have more of a case rather than criticizing the parent's comment to her child.


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## Astrogirl (Oct 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
In the case of an actual spanking in the store, I think you have more of a case rather than criticizing the parent's comment to her child.

Thats a good point. I've joked to my kids before about them needing a spanking (see the "play spanking" thread for context) - never out of anger. I suppose I would be more prone to making my earlier comment to the mother if she said it to ME that her child was about to be spanked, or seemed REALLY close to doing it and i felt like i needed to intervene.

It's also a comfort issue for the public around you as well - I don't want to see violence on tv, so I definitely don't want to see it at my workplace. I know that seems like a "dont ask, dont tell" kind of attitude but if anything, using that argument also allows me to show that spanking IS a form of violence, and could make others uncomfortable - for a reason.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i think intervening if someone actually spanks a child is important. this isn't out of personal experience or anything..so correct me if i am wrong. from your end i don't think you should have to watch someone hit their kid... doing so in a store is really inappropriate. plus as far as losing your job... i would think that intervening would be fine since you nor the other people in the store should have to watch that.

i feel like allowing someone to spank their child in front of you is tantamount to agreeing that the child 'deserves' it. how does a child feel when they are spanked in front of people and no one says anything? how horribly shameful and humiliating. maybe it would also make the parents think twice before actually spanking their kid in public.. it probably wont stop the spanking but it might stop the public humiliation. i don't know if that would make things worse not though. as long as you don't attack the spanking itself.. just say that she can't do that in the store or something ... but i don't know for sure. i imagine its all in the delivery.


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## Mama.Pajama (Jul 16, 2008)

In OP's situation, I wouldn't have said anything related to spanking to the customer unless she spanked the child, though I'd probably assail her with customer service, as PPs suggested. If worse came to worse though, I would've said, "Ma'am, I can't stand by with a good conscience while you hurt your child. Is there any way we can solve this problem without violence?" It would take balls, but I could grow a pair really quick when it's a child's well-being at stake. *To that child, you may be the one person who ever defended her, and she could remember you as a positive influence on herself for the rest of her life!*

My entire family (except me) has spanked and currently spanks their kids. On my side of the family, spankings are more angry outbursts, but my family is a dysfunctional mess of angry, selfish havoc-wreakers







. On the in-law side, they are more "swats" than angry outbursts. It is lucky that I have never seen my side of the family spank since I've been a mother, or they would've gotten an earful (though I'm sure I would've gotten an earful in return).
But when I see my MIL spank (or as they say, "swat a bottom"), it feels really awkward. She cares for her grandchildren while SIL works, and she is generally a very positive disciplinarian (says "I like that!" and "Good job!" until it makes me sick to hear... Lol), but she uses the "Am I gonna have to swat a bottom?" threat, and sometimes follows through. Granted SIL's kids are unruly to say the least (though they are simply products of their scattered upbringing), but I still can't stand seeing kids get spanked, especially around my son! I have spoken to MIL candidly about my strong feelings about not spanking, which she seemed to respect totally. But she doesn't connect the fact that I feel it's not just _my_ baby who should be exempt from physical punishment- it's _any_ child, including my nephews!
Of course, I realize that there is a world of difference between a "swat" and a beating, but IMO, both can and should be avoided in order to promote a child's optimal physiological and emotional development.

Anybody have any of these awkward family situations?


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrandiRhoades* 
Here's the other side. I once had a store clerk tell me that I *should* spank my son. He was 18 months old at the time and yeah, cranky. We were visiting for my sister's graduation, and as those things go, there were lots of get-togethers, tons of family members, and he was overwhelmed. I had forgotten shoes and had to pick some up. When he started crying, the clerk said he was too big to act like that and needed a spanking. I sat my shoes on the counter, said "thanks for reminding my why I moved away from here," and walked out (sans shoes). All of that is to say that stepping in because a parent says "if you do that, you'll get a spanking" is similar to me.

It's not your place as the store clerk to do that. Now someone at a store did once call the police because my mom spanked my sister in the store, so that's definitely something I've seen happen. In the case of an actual spanking in the store, I think you have more of a case rather than criticizing the parent's comment to her child.

I have family who tries to tell me that I am wrong for not spanking my children. So yeah, just because advice is doled out does not mean the other person needs to take it.

Let's explore the scenarios:
non spanking mom told they should spank child: child learns there are hurtful people in this world, but still knows they don't deserve to be hit.
spanking mom is told they should not spank: child learns that they don't deserve to be hit.
spanking mom is ignored when spanking child: child learns that this must be an acceptable way for them to be treated.

So speak up! I dont mind at all when people give me unwanted advice. I hear it all the time about still breastfeeding or using a baby carrier etc. It's not just about adults though, thats the point - we speak up so children can learn. Whether they learn that some people don't tolerate what is different (like baby carriers) or whether they learn that they don't deserve to be hurt, they learn more about this world when people DONT keep their mouths shut.

An end to slaverly, segregation, and spousal abuse did not come forth because people were shutting their mouths and looking their own way. At that time it was their "right" to treat those people less then humanely. Hitting a child is just as humane, and there are no circumstances in my mind where it should be some one's right to treat anyone else (no matter age or status or race or gender) less then humane.


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4inMyHeart3inArms* 
I have family who tries to tell me that I am wrong for not spanking my children.

My SIL tells me EVERY child needs hit at some point or another. She didn't appreciate my telling her that none of mine have ever "needed" it. But it doesn't stop her from beating her 5 and 4 year olds.

Makes me sad.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i was never hit. it would have been bad if i was. i had undiagnosed ADD, impulse control, and rage issues... hitting me would have been catastrophic.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SandraS* 
My SIL tells me EVERY child needs hit at some point or another. She didn't appreciate my telling her that none of mine have ever "needed" it. But it doesn't stop her from beating her 5 and 4 year olds.

Makes me sad.

(HUGS)

I understand. My mom tells me that I am lucky I just have kids that don't need to be hit. Well, thats what she said about my first child. Now she doesn't comment because I guess it's harder to say that I've been lucky 3 times where she was unlucky 3 times? The strange thing is, I know that spanking didn't work for me, and my sister said she used to just pretend it hurt so they would stop but she didn't care about it. I don't know what my brother's deal was. Any way, my mom never needed to hit me - in fact just the opposite. I was highly sensitive and still am to this day. In fact, she had been very lucky as I was one of those kids you easily could have just "talked" to. The whole "need" to hit thing is just a cop out for not looking to learn new parenting skills. It is frustrating when people think that some how hitting a child will solve problems. The reality is, both kids who are spanked and kids who are not spanked misbehave. If a spanking parent wants to say otherwise I would have to challenge that - obviously their children misbehave too or they wouldn't have to spank! The only difference is in how you deal with it. Yes, there are extremes - people who abuse and people who don't guide their children at all - however, it's arguable that guiding your child to behave without violence/hitting/spanking/whatever makes a person feel good to call it is better then trying to scare the child into behaving using those tactics, which often fail anyway.

It's definitely harder not to spank. I mean hey, if you could convince yourself that a diet of ice cream and cookies was good for you then you'd gladly do so I'm sure. Yet we know that is not a balanced diet and so we exhibit self control. There are those who know its not a balanced diet and don't use self control. Some of them "turn out fine" and others suffer obesity, heart problems, etc. The unhealthy eating group suffers those problems more then the healthy eating group, though some in the healthy eating group may have those problems anyway - though they aren't having those problems because they DO eat healthy. This is easily acknowledged, but when the same concept is applied to parenting its not so easily acknowledged. Perhaps some where in their minds they realize that it is wrong and not only is it wrong its making things worse for someone else, a child, not themselves. People have issues with self control. To be blunt one could call it lazy. It's easier to make excuses for laziness (all kids need to be spanked, it didnt hurt me any, its for their own good







) then to look at the facts (increased chances of the child growing up to be violent or in a violent relationship, increased chances of associating pain with love, lower problem solving skills, damper on parent child bond, lower IQ scores as whole , etc) and to change. To get up off their butts and parent their child. You may even see cases of children who are given diets full of soda and candy, and then spanked for misbehavior. Children who would behave better if they had a proper diet. Or children with special needs who are spanked more because the parents don't do more to meet those special needs. This can happen with discipline in general, but it seems more common that spanking parents oversee a child's special needs then GD parents do.

Simply put, its easier to find an excuse to be lazy, to be in denial of the facts. Imagine how much harder life would be if they realized the extent of the damage that can be done with just a plain spanking, let alone straight abuse. Which was my mom's cop out - that she didn't abuse me she "only" spanked me.







I mean really, of course its worse to smoke 3 packs of cigarettes a day but that doesn't make 1 pack a day healthy. Not EVERYTHING is good for you in moderation.

I will not make excuses or exceptions about the idea of spanking. It is never okay, and it infringes upon a person's basic rights, even if my country can't seem to grasp that. It is what it is. It is no more an appropriate right for a parent to spank a child then it was once appropriate for a husband to hit his wife.


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## SandraS (Jan 18, 2007)

Wait wait wait... A diet of ice cream and cookies ISN'T good for me????

Dang it...








:


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## pixiekisses (Oct 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SandraS* 
Wait wait wait... A diet of ice cream and cookies ISN'T good for me????

Dang it...








:


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## HisBeautifulWife (Jun 18, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Just Elsa* 
I don't like it either, but the fact is lots of us on this forum do things that others consider to be over the line into abuse and neglect. If we want the freedom to homeschool or to refuse to vaccinate our kids we also have to accept that others have a right to CIO or spank. We can hate those practices and think they're abusive, but I guarantee for every person we line up who feels that way there are at least as many who are equally against some of our choices. We can try to help our friends and family make good choices but we are not the parenting police for strangers nor do we want to open that barrel of worms.









:

Oh my! Hugs to you for writing this.

And btw, whatever the topic was, I wouldn't appreciate uninvited parenting advice from a stranger or store clerk; and if it was a store clerk depending on if I found it inappropriate or not, I'd make a big deal out of it. And when I make a big deal out of something, it goes beyond talking to the manager because I'd do that as well as moving further up the chain.


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## 4inMyHeart3inArms (May 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SandraS* 
Wait wait wait... A diet of ice cream and cookies ISN'T good for me????

Dang it...








:

I know hehe... I pretend I don't know that sometimes myself. Which is why I can understand the lazy aspect of spanking... because I myself can be lazy when it comes to something, such as eating right... though I don't disillusion myself into really thinking cookies and ice cream is all I need







i may temporarily conveniently forget, but if someone said "brocolli is better for you then ice cream" I wouldn't feel the need to defend ice cream as the better choice... catch my drift?


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## averlee (Apr 10, 2009)

Regardless of the situation, you always have the right to speak up when you are uncomfortable. In a workplace, you have the right to a safe work environment, free from violence or threats of bodily harm. Just like with sexual harassment, it doesn't matter who the comments are addressed to, because overhearing them affects your work environment. When working alone in a store, you are the proprietor and you have the right to refuse service or to expect certain conduct from patrons. Threatening language can't be tolerated in a store frequented by small children.


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