# Lap Children at risk on Flights



## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

http://www.usatoday.com/printedition...cgee18.art.htm

its nice to see this article in a major newspaper.

Quote:

Adults traveling with babies may have no idea how dangerous it is to allow infants and toddlers to fly on commercial airline flights as "lap children."


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Great article! To the point, simple, "Here's why, and here's how" piece.

I wonder if it can get added to the Airline Safety sticky?


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

What an awful fear mongering article!

The actual rates of children being hurt because they aren't restrained is VERY VERY VERY low.

If they want to convince people to buy tickets - they need to put out actual numbers which show that there is a real danger which is more than some minuscule amount.


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## tessa67 (Jul 27, 2007)

And some airlines, I think American was one of them, will not let you use your carseat in an empty seat unless you buy a ticket.


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## LadyAlathia (Sep 5, 2008)

Riiight.

Because a car seat is going to save a baby from a plane crash from 35,000 feet.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

yeah i find it fear mongering too. no actual statistics.


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## beru (Nov 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyAlathia* 
Riiight.

Because a car seat is going to save a baby from a plane crash from 35,000 feet.

No, but it will save a child from severe turbulence and crash landings like the crash landing in Sioux City that was mentioned in the story.

My sister's neighbor is a flight attendant and she finds it absolutely absurd that during turbulence, she is required to have everything in the cabin stored and secured except for the most vulnerable passengers. She has to secure plastic cups and napkins for godsakes...

That being said, I do believe that it is generally safer to fly with an infant on your lap than to do long drive with your child in a car seat. However, when flying, it is safer to do it in a car seat and babies lives will be saved. I find the cavalier response to this article by some alarming. I respect mothers who have weighed the risks and benefits and chose to fly with baby in their lap but this doesn't mean there are no risks.

And the article clearly states that the FAA also belives lap babies are safer than those in car seats driving. That side of the argument WAS represented in the article.


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
yeah i find it fear mongering too. no actual statistics.









My 21mo is RFing even though she _could_ be FFing. Why? Because there are clear stats that indicate that it's significantly safer.

She will fly on my lap if we go anywhere in the next 3 months because there is no data that says there is anything more than a minuscule safety increase.

When she's 2? We'll have to buy a seat. Will we use a carseat then? Don't know yet - but it's likely because it would help her sit still.


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beru* 

That being said, I do believe that it is generally safer to fly with an infant on your lap than to do long drive with your child in a car seat.

ALL of the stats I've seen say that it's 100X safer to fly with a lap baby than drive the same distance with them in a carseat!


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beru* 
I find the cavalier response to this article by some alarming. I respect mothers who have weighed the risks and benefits and chose to fly with baby in their lap but this doesn't mean there are no risks.

And the article clearly states that the FAA also belives lap babies are safer than those in car seats driving. That side of the argument WAS represented in the article.

thank you. I think the issue is important to get out there. what ppl do w/ the information is up to them. after the things i have read about lap babies, there is no way i will travel w/o having a seat for my child(ren).


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## beru (Nov 19, 2007)

Quote:
Originally Posted by beru View Post

That being said, I do believe that it is generally safer to fly with an infant on your lap than to do long drive with your child in a car seat.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kiera09* 
ALL of the stats I've seen say that it's 100X safer to fly with a lap baby than drive the same distance with them in a carseat!

Did you misunderstand me? I do agree with you on that point. I just thought it was common sense but I haven't seen statistics. Where do I find them?


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

This site has the rates for motor vehicles:

http://www.lightrailnow.org/facts/fa_00015.htm

It lists the Fatality Rates per 100 Million Passenger-Mile as 0.93

From what I remember (and I can't find it right now) the number for airplanes is 0.02...

From an article advocating carseats on airplanes by the AAFP: http://www.aafp.org/afp/20040501/tips/14.html

Quote:

The use of child safety restraint systems for airplane travel would prevent about *0.4 child air-crash deaths per year*.

Quote:

The authors conclude that a policy requiring the use of child safety restraint systems for children younger than two years during air travel could result in a *net increase in deaths and injuries in this age group* if the cost of the seats is high enough that most families divert to car travel to save money.


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## mcng (Oct 17, 2006)

One accident in 1989, Im not convinced sorry.


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Here's the NTSB data from 1988 to 2007 for airplane travel:

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviation/Table5.htm


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Here's another site that compares airplanes with cars...

http://www.airlines.org/economics/sp...ine+Safety.htm

I will admit that it is put out by the airline industry - so take from it what you will.


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## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

While I agree an article isn't worth a whole lot without statistics... I doubt one person in 20 years is the extent of it.

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/271593 An article from last year about a little girl surviving a plane crash in her carseat.

In a totally fatal crash is it going to make a difference... nope... some crashes (and car accidents FWIW) are totally unsurvivable. But could it during turbulence, or a crash like the above. It could. And btw I'm not just talking lives, injuries could be prevented too.

Now, all that said, is it common? Nope. Is it safer than a car... absolutely. But it IS worth being informed that it's a risk... some people just don't even think about it. Think that because under two year olds can be lap babies that they'd definitely be able to protect them on their own. Which may be true most of the time, but making an informed decisions knowing what could happen is not a bad thing.

Buying a new seat for a 3 year old who has hit the 33lbs weight limit rearfacing to keep them rearfacing an extra 2lbs might be seen as extreme by some, since forward facing is a valid option at that age and weight... but it is safer, and that is worth knowing when you make your decision.

If it even for example saved one life every 10 years and that was your child... well for me I'd at least like to know it's a possibility and make the call myself.


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *triscuitsmom* 
http://www.thestar.com/News/article/271593 An article from last year about a little girl surviving a plane crash in her carseat.

GA - or General Aviation - which covers non comercial or military flights - is COMPLETELY different from commercial air travel:

http://www.meretrix.com/~harry/flyin...vsdriving.html

Quote:

Let's compare the rate of fatal accidents to the amount of flying/driving done.

For GA, there were 11.2 fatal accidents and 19.7 fatalities per million hours of flying.

For motor vehicles, there were 1.32 fatal accidents and 1.47 fatalities per 100M miles.

Quote:

Buying a new seat for a 3 year old who has hit the 33lbs weight limit rearfacing to keep them rearfacing an extra 2lbs might be seen as extreme by some, since forward facing is a valid option at that age and weight... but it is safer, and that is worth knowing when you make your decision.
That's an extra cost that gets used daily - and has a PROVABLE benefit to the child.

The number of children who die every year in car crashes is HUGE compared with the number of children who die every year in "survivable" air crashes.

I think that trying to compare the 2 is a false argument.


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## dex_millie (Oct 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
yeah i find it fear mongering too. no actual statistics.










Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyAlathia* 
Riiight.

Because a car seat is going to save a baby from a plane crash from 35,000 feet.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kiera09* 
What an awful fear mongering article!

The actual rates of children being hurt because they aren't restrained is VERY VERY VERY low.

If they want to convince people to buy tickets - they need to put out actual numbers which show that there is a real danger which is more than some minuscule amount.









: I have to agree with the above. This is just trying to but fear into people to buy tickets, wouldn't the plane companies like that (like crib companies wants us to buy cribs). And as it mentioned more people might start to drive and there is more fatal accidents when driving.

Those who feel so strongly against it always has that option to buy that ticket and bring a carseat, but to force it on everybody is a different thing.

Yes being inform is good so people can make the decision, but from what I hear/notice people are being more scared into it or told they don't love their children because of it that's using a whole different strategy to me.

What about public buses and trains now..I figure they would be more 'dangerous' to ride w/o carseats...


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## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kiera09* 
That's an extra cost that gets used daily - and has a PROVABLE benefit to the child.

The number of children who die every year in car crashes is HUGE compared with the number of children who die every year in "survivable" air crashes.

I think that trying to compare the 2 is a false argument.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *dex_millie* 
Those who feel so strongly against it always has that option to buy that ticket and bring a carseat, but to force it on everybody when the rates or so low....

Just to clarify my above post... I don't think the risk is the same (% wise) as rearfacing in a car... I'm only saying that there are lots of parents who don't there _is a risk at all_ to either, and I think the call should be made based on knowledge that there is a risk, however small.

FWIW, I feel the same about cribs vs cosleeping, or whatever other argument you have. It's not that the risks are the same for them all, I'm saying that it should be known that there is a risk and then the parents make the call.

And I agree about forcing it... I will always buy a seat for my under two child, and bring a seat. I would NEVER want it forced. The risk to that would be too great. Education yes... mandatory laws, no.


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dex_millie* 
What about public buses and trains now..I figure they would be more 'dangerous' to ride w/o carseats...

I believe that public buses and airplanes have a similar death rate - which is 0.02 deaths per million miles traveled or something...

So - we should retrofit all buses to allow for carseats to be used and require that all people use them... And we should hold up all buses so that people can properly install carseats for a 5 minute ride.


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *triscuitsmom* 
And I agree about forcing it... I will always buy a seat for my under two child, and bring a seat. I would NEVER want it forced. The risk to that would be too great. Education yes... mandatory laws, no.

What I find interesting is that I'm very likely to bring a car seat for my OVER 2. Since she would be sitting in her own seat and more likely need to be restrained in some way.


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## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kiera09* 
What I find interesting is that I'm very likely to bring a car seat for my OVER 2. Since she would be sitting in her own seat and more likely need to be restrained in some way.

*nods* me too. My child will be in their carseat in the airplane same as in the car... to what limit I don't know except that it will be sometime before booster age because they aren't allowed on flights.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

for me, this isnt about driving vs. flying. when i travel, the cost of a ticket for a baby is not going to make me chose driving over flying. for me, its about flying w/ an under 2 yo WITH a car seat or WITHOUT a car seat.

that is what i am comparing...not flying vs. driving.

i also dont think it should be mandatory..but i do think ppl should understand that there are risks.

of course, im one of those who was going to buy another seat for my 2 yo that was about to hit the 33 lb. RF'ing limit...for those extra 2 lbs.

so you can take that for what its worth i guess.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

yes i understand that there are risks. there are risks to crossing the street. people should be informed of the actual risk, and informed decisions should be respected.


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

I guess it might depend on where you live.

I am unlikely to fly anywhere which would cost less than $750/seat with all the stuff included...

So - needing to buy a seat for my under-2 would be a significant cost.

Buying another car seat for $200, while also a major chunk of change, would be far less of a burden - and we'd get daily use out of it. She's in the car for over an hour every day if it's just a to work/daycare day - and longer if it's a day where we go somewhere. And the seat would last for a much longer period of time. It would also increase her safety significantly.


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## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
yes i understand that there are risks. there are risks to crossing the street. people should be informed of the actual risk, and informed decisions should be respected.

*nods* agree with this.


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## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kiera09* 
I guess it might depend on where you live.

I am unlikely to fly anywhere which would cost less than $750/seat with all the stuff included...

So - needing to buy a seat for my under-2 would be a significant cost.

Buying another car seat for $200, while also a major chunk of change, would be far less of a burden - and we'd get daily use out of it. She's in the car for over an hour every day if it's just a to work/daycare day - and longer if it's a day where we go somewhere. And the seat would last for a much longer period of time. It would also increase her safety significantly.

*nods* I'll admit the seat to fly out east and see my DP family was much less than that though still more than a new carseat. I will be making one trip that will be significantly more than that, but if it were a regular thing I might be considering it differently.

I don't think you can make a wrong choice here. I think as long as you know that there is a (very small) risk of death and a (higher, but still quite low) risk of injury that regardless of what your decision is it's not wrong. Especially considering the actual statistics and then comparing them to cars (if that is your other option, which is wasn't for us but I understand it could be).


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

I fully accept that there is an incredible minuscule chance that we might end up on a flight where something happens and DD could be injured or die.

It's a tiny tiny chance. - But it could happen.

I also understand that the very act of going back to work full time so that she ends up in daycare means that we have significantly increased her risk of dieing in a car crash due to the increase in miles driven.

I'm much more concerned about that, than the occasional flight we may go on with her on our laps.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kiera09* 
Here's the NTSB data from 1988 to 2007 for airplane travel:

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviation/Table5.htm

Yes, plane travel is very safe compared to car travel.

I still fasten my seat belt all the time I'm seated on the plane, and I stay in my seat as much as I can without risking my health. I've never seen anyone argue that planes shouldn't require seat belts, or that they should take out the seats and just use toss pillows so people can stretch out more comfortably and they can put more people on the plane.

And it's really difficult for me to fathom why, if it's required for *me*, I should make an exception for my baby. I get that people would make the decision that they couldn't afford to fly if they had to buy a ticket... but, if that was my situation, then duh! I can't afford to fly! No different if we couldn't afford a ticket for my husband or my over-2 child. If we can't afford tickets for everyone in the family, we can't afford to go. That's how it works.

It's not any safer for an under-2 to be without a proper seat on a plane than it is for someone over-2. It's just more feasible for them to sit on someone's lap.


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
I still fasten my seat belt all the time I'm seated on the plane, and I stay in my seat as much as I can without risking my health.

I don't.

I get up and walk around on a regular basis. Otherwise I'd go batty. Especially on the numerous 10+ hour flights I've been on.

I keep my seatbelt fastened most of the time. But - I don't worry about it. I do loosen it once the seatbelt sign goes off.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
Yes, plane travel is very safe compared to car travel.

I still fasten my seat belt all the time I'm seated on the plane, and I stay in my seat as much as I can without risking my health. I've never seen anyone argue that planes shouldn't require seat belts, or that they should take out the seats and just use toss pillows so people can stretch out more comfortably and they can put more people on the plane.

And it's really difficult for me to fathom why, if it's required for *me*, I should make an exception for my baby. I get that people would make the decision that they couldn't afford to fly if they had to buy a ticket... but, if that was my situation, then duh! I can't afford to fly! No different if we couldn't afford a ticket for my husband or my over-2 child. If we can't afford tickets for everyone in the family, we can't afford to go. That's how it works.

It's not any safer for an under-2 to be without a proper seat on a plane than it is for someone over-2. It's just more feasible for them to sit on someone's lap.

I totally agree. I just did 2 flights today and I drug along both car seats.


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

If you're travelling domestically in the US, you do is ask for a seatbelt extender, then you put that around your baby and looped through your seat belt. That's what the rest of the world does to restrain them. Most turbulence injuries come from hitting things like the roof.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyAlathia* 
Riiight.

Because a car seat is going to save a baby from a plane crash from 35,000 feet.

Unless it's Britax. They just bounce through the flaming wreckage.


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## MilkTrance (Jul 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kiera09* 
ALL of the stats I've seen say that it's 100X safer to fly with a lap baby than drive the same distance with them in a carseat!


You are statistically more likely to die from an asteroid hitting you than from a plane crash.

I suppose though that very very severe turbulence could be harmful to a lap-held baby.

I dunno. It's not that people are cavalier, really, it's that an extra seat can cost upwards of $1000 depending on where you live (cross Canada is a great example of horrible seat fares).


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wannabe* 
If you're travelling domestically in the US, you do is ask for a seatbelt extender, then you put that around your baby and looped through your seat belt. That's what the rest of the world does to restrain them.

The FAA specifically prohibits this, because sled tests have shown it increases the risk of injury to the child. See 14a on the relevant Advisory Circular.


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## khanni (Jan 11, 2008)

Why not use one of these. I did when I flew with my then 4 mo old, an then again at 9 mos: http://www.babybair.com

There's no way she would have happily stayed in her carseat.


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MilkTrance* 
I dunno. It's not that people are cavalier, really, it's that an extra seat can cost upwards of $1000 depending on where you live (cross Canada is a great example of horrible seat fares).

Yes - I'm in Western Canada. There are few few places that I would fly that wouldn't cost over $700 and probably closer to $1000.

I know that people in the US might be used to $200 or $300 ticket to fun places - but that's just not realistic here. So the cost of an extra ticket is HUGE.


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## Carma (Feb 10, 2006)

I started buying a seat for my DD when she was over 1 year. But she wouldn't stay in there for the whole 8 hours to Europe of course. I think at least half of the time she was on my lap, I was walking with her to entertain her, etc. A seat on the plane might be safer, but it is not practical to keep a tiny one in there for so many hours, so there goes some of the safety benefit again.
And indeed an extra seat to some places (like Europe) is very expensive, that money could also be used to make the life of the kids safer in another way with much higher total increase in safety (safer car, safer car seat, safer food, safer toys etc.).

Carma


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *khanni* 
Why not use one of these. I did when I flew with my then 4 mo old, an then again at 9 mos: http://www.babybair.com

There's no way she would have happily stayed in her carseat.

Those aren't allowed for takeoff and landing.


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## Carma (Feb 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Those aren't allowed for takeoff and landing.

One time we flew with KLM/NWA and I had to use such a thing (provided by the airline) at landing and take off.

Carma


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Carma* 
One time we flew with KLM/NWA and I had to use such a thing (provided by the airline) at landing and take off.

Carma

International flights are different, as they allow and encourage you to use the airline-provided devices. In the US, you cannot use any device other than an FAA-approved child restraint (car seat or the CARES harness).


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## rhiandmoi (Apr 28, 2006)

Buying the extra seat provides your family with a little more personal space. Most flights these days are packed like sardines, and the few lap babies I've seen in the last couple of months did not enjoy being that close to strangers. I think I would buy the extra seat just for my own mental wellbeing.


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rhiandmoi* 
Buying the extra seat provides your family with a little more personal space. Most flights these days are packed like sardines, and the few lap babies I've seen in the last couple of months did not enjoy being that close to strangers. I think I would buy the extra seat just for my own mental wellbeing.

Just curious - how much is your mental wellbeing worth?

Would you spend $1000?


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kiera09* 
Just curious - how much is your mental wellbeing worth?

Would you spend $1000?

Do you want to go there? The "How much is X worth?" argument? On a child safety issue?

Because yeah, the chances of a carseat saving your child's life on an airplane are really, really small. They are nonzero, however... so you can end up asking yourself whether that $1000 would have kept your child alive. There are people who live with that question every day of their lives.


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## rocketgirl96 (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
Do you want to go there? The "How much is X worth?" argument? On a child safety issue?

Because yeah, the chances of a carseat saving your child's life on an airplane are really, really small. They are nonzero, however... so you can end up asking yourself whether that $1000 would have kept your child alive. There are people who live with that question every day of their lives.

I'm pretty sure Kiera09 wasn't arguing about what a child's safety was worth. She was responding directly to the previous poster's statement about buying a seat for her "mental well-being" and personal space. Personally, $1000 for extra space on an airline is pretty steep for me, but I'm sure it might be worth it to some people.

Christine


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## odenata (Feb 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kiera09* 
Just curious - how much is your mental wellbeing worth?

Would you spend $1000?

I'm not the PP, but I won't fly without an extra seat or upgrading to first class anymore because it is awfully cramped and flying pretty much sucks these days. We use our miles to cut costs down and take less trips. Or, like we are doing next summer, we take the train instead.

That's planned trips, of course - I know it's not always an option - things come up that you have to travel for, and you make due. Personally, I am in the camp that taking a lap baby on a plane is a rather minimal risk, and one I have done in the past.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LadyAlathia* 
Riiight.

Because a car seat is going to save a baby from a plane crash from 35,000 feet.

It likely saved this child's life http://www.canada.com/topics/news/na...52e26a&k=41257


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Yes, actually most plane crashes are survivable (the vast majority involve small planes, and crashes of small aircraft with or without deaths don't get much publicity). DH is a pilot and is obsessed with the NTSB crash data and he is very insistant that the kids are restrained properly on any plane, large or small. There was one story about a 4 yo who was on his grandfather's plane, opened the hatch and fell out, and was clinging to the door of the plane. Grandfather did a crazy flip and managed to get him back in the plane safely.


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## odenata (Feb 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
Because yeah, the chances of a carseat saving your child's life on an airplane are really, really small. They are nonzero, however... so you can end up asking yourself whether that $1000 would have kept your child alive. There are people who live with that question every day of their lives.

If your child dies in an accident, you are always going to ask yourself if there was something else you could have done, or wonder "if only..." If not the carseat, whether you needed to go on the trip itself, or if you had just done this or that instead. That's the nature of grieving. This strikes me as a scare tactic, just like the original article did.

I do things with my child everyday that are riskier than taking her as a lap baby - more kids have died on playgrounds than on commercial flights. People should make educated, informed decisions that aren't based on fear tactics. Pretty much nothing in life has a nonzero risk to it.


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
Do you want to go there? The "How much is X worth?" argument? On a child safety issue?

Because yeah, the chances of a carseat saving your child's life on an airplane are really, really small. They are nonzero, however... so you can end up asking yourself whether that $1000 would have kept your child alive. There are people who live with that question every day of their lives.

I'm perfectly happy to go there.

I do think that there's a cap on how much people are willing to pay to keep their children safe.

It could probably be argued that it would be MUCH safer to hire a professional driver with extensive driver's training and experience to chauffeur my child around. It's been proven that professional drivers are safer than amateurs (see stats on bus drivers, and big rig drivers - please note that taxi drivers don't in general have higher levels of training). But I haven't heard it argued that we should all pay for professionals to drive us around.

Also - some cars are much safer than other cars. There are cars out there with 2 and 3 star crash test ratings. Then there are 100K cars which are build like tanks with excellent handling and accident avoidance.

It's perfectly fine to make a choice that for your family - it's not worth buying a 100K car.

We put a price on our children's lives all the time. Why should this be any different?


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DevaMajka* 
It likely saved this child's life http://www.canada.com/topics/news/na...52e26a&k=41257


Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Yes, actually most plane crashes are survivable (the vast majority involve small planes, and crashes of small aircraft with or without deaths don't get much publicity). DH is a pilot and is obsessed with the NTSB crash data and he is very insistant that the kids are restrained properly on any plane, large or small. There was one story about a 4 yo who was on his grandfather's plane, opened the hatch and fell out, and was clinging to the door of the plane. Grandfather did a crazy flip and managed to get him back in the plane safely.

As I said earlier (and provided links)... Those would qualify as General Aviation accidents. GA has a HIGHER risk of death than going by car.

It is comparing apples to oranges to say "look - here are examples of carseats being really valuable on personal aircraft, they'd be just as useful on commercial ones too"...

That comparison can't be made. Commercial flying has a 100X less risk of dying than cars...


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

What I was pointing out is that most plane crashes are survivable. Period. Large aircraft or small.


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
What I was pointing out is that most plane crashes are survivable. Period. Large aircraft or small.

Please link to some stats.

I found stats saying that the AAFP believes that only 0.4 babies would be saved if everyone bought seats and used carseats. That would cost *6.4 million/life saved*!

That seems like a VERY small number of lives saved.

That stat says that there is only *1 survivable crash (where a car seat would make a difference every 2.5 years*.

So - where do you get your "most plane crashes are survivable" info from?


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Like I said, the NTSB.


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Like I said, the NTSB.

I brought some stats to this discussion following the great MDC tradition of "informed choice".

If you want to disprove my point - which is that according to the AAFP - there is 1 preventable death of a lap baby/small child every 2.5 years on commercial passenger planes - then you need to bring some numbers/stats/quotes.

You stated that "... most plane crashes are survivable. Period. Large aircraft or small."

Please show where you got this from. Please link to a specific page where commercial planes and general aviation are combined.

What defines a "crash" in your statistic? Is any 'incident' included? So - would a tire blowing on landing (an incident which normally doesn't involve any injuries) included?


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

I will ask DH for links. I'm pretty sure they include any incident with injuries in their investigations, whether that be a blown tire that causes bumps and bruises or a major crash.


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
I will ask DH for links. I'm pretty sure they include any incident with injuries in their investigations, whether that be a blown tire that causes bumps and bruises or a major crash.

Because I'm really curious how your statement - and the stats that I brought can add up.

You'd think that if most crashes were "surivable" - then there would be more than .4 child/baby deaths/year that could be "survived" with the addition of a carseat.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Here's a table I found on the NTSB site. Again, I will ask DH for links for more. I know he has lots bookmarked.


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Here's a table I found on the NTSB site. Again, I will ask DH for links for more. I know he has lots bookmarked.

Please compare that table to this one: http://www.ntsb.gov/aviation/Table5.htm

I linked to it earlier in this same thread!!!!!!

So - while the number of planes involved in "survivable" crashes may indeed be higher than the basic number involved in catastrophic crashes...

Dieing in a catastrophic event would still be more worrisome to me than being injured in a "survivable" crash.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kiera09* 
So - while the number of planes involved in "survivable" crashes may indeed be higher than the basic number involved in catastrophic crashes...

Dieing in a catastrophic event would still be more worrisome to me than being injured in a "survivable" crash.









Yes I can imagine that dying would be worrisome

This is interesting as well.


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 

This is interesting as well.

That is interesting.

I will admit I didn't read the entire thing.

But - I did skim the summary table - and didn't notice very many "2 unrestrained children killed" listed.

I saw alot of "There were minor injuries" and "There were no injuries" in the description or "Destroyed" listed in the Damage Category...

That still doesn't disprove the data I found - which, once again, is that 0.4 children die per year who may have been saved by being in a carseat.


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## dolcedaze (Jan 29, 2006)

I flew with my daughter on my lap right up until the week before her second birthday. I fully understand that she would be injured or killed in the event of turbulence, but I have yet to EVER see statistics for that, as compared to her risk of being injured or killed making the same trip in a car, properly secured in her car seat. It seems logical that the chances of the second are much higher.

I also wonder what the incidence of minor injury is from infants riding in airplanes in car seats- specifically infants who refuse to suck anywhere but at the breast and injury to the eardrum if they're not able to do that.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kiera09* 
That is interesting.

I will admit I didn't read the entire thing.

But - I did skim the summary table - and didn't notice very many "2 unrestrained children killed" listed.

I saw alot of "There were minor injuries" and "There were no injuries" in the description or "Destroyed" listed in the Damage Category...

That still doesn't disprove the data I found - which, once again, is that 0.4 children die per year who may have been saved by being in a carseat.

Yeah, well, take from it what you will. I have seen way too many of these threads and nothing ever gets accomplished. Many people will be on the "the risk is minimal, and I'm not going to spend the extra money for the seat" side, and just as many are on the "I'm not going to risk it" side. I'm not going to argue with you.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dolcedaze* 
I fully understand that she would be injured or killed in the event of turbulence, but I have yet to EVER see statistics for that, as compared to her risk of being injured or killed making the same trip in a car, properly secured in her car seat. It seems logical that the chances of the second are much higher.

I totally agree that plane travel in general is much safer than car travel.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kiera09* 
It could probably be argued that it would be MUCH safer to hire a professional driver with extensive driver's training and experience to chauffeur my child around. It's been proven that professional drivers are safer than amateurs (see stats on bus drivers, and big rig drivers - please note that taxi drivers don't in general have higher levels of training). But I haven't heard it argued that we should all pay for professionals to drive us around.

True. What I also haven't seen argued is that we should have professional drivers drive Mommy and Daddy to work, and Big Brother/Sister to school, but that any ol' person can drive Baby where s/he needs to go.

If *I* need to have a seat on the plane to be safe, then clearly, so does my baby. The difference is not safety (babies are no safer flying without assigned seats than adults are), but comfort (DH's legs fall asleep quickly if I sit on his lap).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kiera09* 
Dieing in a catastrophic event would still be more worrisome to me than being injured in a "survivable" crash.

No, dying wouldn't be worrisome at all to you. ;-) But probably to your family.

If you were injured in a "survivable" crash, and you (lap) baby died, that would be extremely worrisome, however. That's where I'm at: I could simply not live with myself if such a thing happened.

Also, I think the point about one's mental well-being was more about the fact that there's advantages besides safety to buying baby a seat. I know that, once my son was born, we would have had trouble getting all our baggage in the allowance for just two seats, for one thing!


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## rhiandmoi (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kiera09* 
Just curious - how much is your mental wellbeing worth?

Would you spend $1000?

Since flights from my local airport that are going to cost $1000 are at least 5 hours long, if not longer, and I have enough problems with claustraphobia already, I would definitely spend $1000 on another ticket. But since most of my flights are more in the $100 range, it's worth it to me to have the second ticket.


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## Draupadi (Jul 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 

No, dying wouldn't be worrisome at all to you. ;-) But probably to your family.

*If you were injured in a "survivable" crash, and you (lap) baby died, that would be extremely worrisome, however. That's where I'm at: I could simply not live with myself if such a thing happened.*


This exactly. Right after DS turned 1, we flew to Scotland. We brought our carseat with every intention of using it. The only problem is that DS refused to sit in it and cried when we tried to put him in it ( we do not have a car and don't drive regularly so the seat is not that familiar to him). He sat in our laps the whole flight. I would've preferred that he was in his seat where it was safer. Everytime we hit any turbulence, I got really nervous.
IMO, one child being injured or worse, dying, in turbulence or a plane crash is enough for me.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that unrestrained children become projectiles in crashes or severe turbulence. Not only is your unrestrained child in danger, but so are you and other people on the plane.

I know it costs more to buy tickets for everybody. But families with children over two simply have to buy tickets or not fly. I wish that was the rule for everybody.


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
I know it costs more to buy tickets for everybody. But families with children over two simply have to buy tickets or not fly. I wish that was the rule for everybody.

The question isn't so much buying the extra seat - as it is also using a carseat in that seat.

The question is 2 fold.


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## Carma (Feb 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kiera09* 
The question isn't so much buying the extra seat - as it is also using a carseat in that seat.

The question is 2 fold.

Even 3-fold. You also need to use the seat. A child 0-24 months is not very likely to happily stay in a carseat for hours.

Carma


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Carma* 
Even 3-fold. You also need to use the seat. A child 0-24 months is not very likely to happily stay in a carseat for hours.

Carma

Which is where I come back to making a 'reasonable' choice about how I spend my money.

Until recently - it would have been VERY unlikely that DD would have done anything but scream if put in her carseat on a plane. I don't do CIO. I don't do it EVER. If I'm driving and she freaks out - we pull over to take her out of the carseat and calm her down. It's been close to a year since we've had to do it - but it was a daily occurance as an infant.

So - she wouldn't have stayed in the carseat on a plane. So - how would it have helped?

The dangerous kind of turbulence is the kind that's sudden. You don't get any warning. So it's not like there'd be time to buckle the baby back up.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kiera09* 
So - she wouldn't have stayed in the carseat on a plane. So - how would it have helped?

The dangerous kind of turbulence is the kind that's sudden. You don't get any warning. So it's not like there'd be time to buckle the baby back up.

There are things like wind conditions, clouds etc and other planes in the area generally warn each other. Not that it can't happen of course, but I feel fine taking them out of their car seats during the trip. The vast majority of crashes occur at takeoff and landing. We just flew the other day and I let them both out of their seats to use the potty and look out the windows, and on our second leg I took DD2 out of her seat to nurse her to sleep after we were in the air. I am not a CIO-advocating mama who lets her hungry kids sit in poopy diapers for 12 hours as has been insinuated before


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Carma* 
Even 3-fold. You also need to use the seat. A child 0-24 months is not very likely to happily stay in a carseat for hours.

Carma


that may be the case for your child but my son has flown twice and been perfectly happy sitting in his car seat. it was familiar to him and its comfortable for him. he was good.

i dont CIO either; nor do i let my kid sit in a dirty diaper.

i just dont get the arguments.....after 2 you have to buy a ticket. i dont get why not before 2. and thats really all it comes down to. once the child hits 2, its a paid ticket. why not 3??? or 4? they can sit in your lap at those ages too.


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## Carma (Feb 10, 2006)

Before 2 it is still relative comfortable to have them in your lap. We also flew several times and at 4/5 months my children did not want to sit in a car seat very long, especially when they see me sitting right next to them, they wanted to sit with me. I found it less comfortable to have a lap child after ~12 months, so we got the extra seat. But still we needed to get them out of the seat several times in the 8 hour flight.
The problem is that a seat is so expensive nowadays.

Carma


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I bought a car seat for my daughter one time when she was under 2. She spent the whole flight on my lap, much of the time nursing. She even spent the time going up and down nursing because her ears hurt.

Yes there is a very slight risk to a child on a commercial airplane, but I don't see it as significant. I even had her on a flight with significant turbulence. My husband and I took turns holding her. She was fine.

I now let my daughter climb trees and jump on trampolines, both of which have a higher risk than an infant or toddler has flying on a commercial flight on a lap.

I will pay a lot of money for a car seat to use in the car. I've personally been in three or four car crashes in my life that probably would have killed a child who wasn't properly restrained in a car seat. (None with my daughter thank goodness so it wasn't tested.) Anyone who drives regularly will be in an accident at some point. Probably more than once. It isn't a case of if, it's a case of when. That's an entirely different issue IMO.


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## mcng (Oct 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rhiandmoi* 
Since flights from my local airport that are going to cost $1000 are at least 5 hours long, if not longer, and I have enough problems with claustraphobia already, I would definitely spend $1000 on another ticket. But since most of my flights are more in the $100 range, it's worth it to me to have the second ticket.

100$ just curios but where are you flying to for 100$ I have not seen a flight near that price in ages.


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## Aries1985 (Feb 29, 2008)

I flew with my 6 week old, she had her own seat, in a car seat for most of the flights (2 each way!) because she was asleep. Sure, I took her out and held her when I needed to, but when we ran into some rough air you can bet she was safely restrained in her seat.

Yeah, it was an extra $400, but to me that's just the price of having a child and vacationing with her. We're flying with her again in December and again she'll have her own seat. There are no questions asked in my family about a baby getting her own seat, it's just what is done! It might not statistically make a huge difference for her to have her own seat, but the piece of mind it gives me makes me feel a lot better.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mcng* 
100$ just curios but where are you flying to for 100$ I have not seen a flight near that price in ages.

I just bought 2 tickets for $98/ea from Seattle to Phoenix. I also flew on Alaska Airlines from Phx-Sea for $100 (and DD1's seat was $50) just before Christmas, which was peak season. There still are some cheap fares out there


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Carma* 
The problem is that a seat is so expensive nowadays.

The seat is no more expensive for baby than for anyone else in the family, though (and sometimes is cheaper).


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## veganone (May 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
Yes, plane travel is very safe compared to car travel.

I still fasten my seat belt all the time I'm seated on the plane, and I stay in my seat as much as I can without risking my health. I've never seen anyone argue that planes shouldn't require seat belts, or that they should take out the seats and just use toss pillows so people can stretch out more comfortably and they can put more people on the plane.

And it's really difficult for me to fathom why, if it's required for *me*, I should make an exception for my baby. I get that people would make the decision that they couldn't afford to fly if they had to buy a ticket... but, if that was my situation, then duh! I can't afford to fly! No different if we couldn't afford a ticket for my husband or my over-2 child. If we can't afford tickets for everyone in the family, we can't afford to go. That's how it works.

It's not any safer for an under-2 to be without a proper seat on a plane than it is for someone over-2. It's just more feasible for them to sit on someone's lap.

Agreed!

I've flown with my daughter twice, and have 2 more plane trips planned in the next 3 months. She will be in a carseat for all of them as much as is feasible, and every take off and landing. I'm not worried about a severe crash; I'm worried about protecting her from turbulance and from a possible bumpy take off or landing. I've been in flights with severe turbulance, and I can't imagine not having a safe place for DD if/when that happens.

Sure, flying is ALWAYS safer than being in a car, but I find it an odd comparison. Just because it's safer doesn't mean I don't want to make DD as safe as is feasible when we fly.


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## veganone (May 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mcng* 
100$ just curios but where are you flying to for 100$ I have not seen a flight near that price in ages.

We are flying from Northern California to Seattle next month for $77 per person. Cheap flights are still out there. They're just a lot fewer and farther between!


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## DesireeH (Mar 22, 2003)

My kids have both been lap kids at some point. I put them in the seatbelt with me which I am sure is not that safe but in turbulence at least they wouldnt fling up and whack their heads or something. I'm kind of in the camp that if we are going down at 35,000 ft we are all going to die regardless of what type of chair they have.

Now its a non-issue as they are both too old to be lap kids.

I hate flying in general, I just flew on my 4th flight in 3.5 weeks (I'm a wedding photographer) and I never get used to it. LOL I do like the kids being in their own seat (they came on 2 of those flights with me.)

If you are in a major city you should check out Virgin America. They have monitors on all the seats for kids to play games or watch cartoons. They have laptop plugs at every seat too. I really liked them. They were cheap too.


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## beru (Nov 19, 2007)

I think this post has been very informative. I have been exposed to specific stats. I totally respect those who fly with lap babies. They are definitely not taking a crazy risk or anything. I think most of us agree that flying with a lap baby is safer than driving.

I almost always buy a seat for my babies. The one time I didn't, it was very uncomfortable. My then 9 month old was not happy in my lap unless she was nursing. She was uncomfortable. She was much more comfortable in her carseat. I was also angry and agitated about being told there was not an extra seat for her and then taking off in a plane that was half empty. For my next trip I was weighing whether or not I would buy a seat for her. Having her be safer is a plus of course. But the deciding factor for me was my peace of mind and her comfort. I spent $350 for that flight. I was probably paying $150 for extra safety and $200 for our sanity. I think if my baby hated her carseat and was happy sitting in my lap during flights, I would not buy a seat for her.

We are thinking of flying to Germany to visit relatives. That will be a hefty ticket. I definitely plan to buy a seat for the baby and the factors are the same as above-part safety, part mental and physical comfort.

I wonder, do those of you who are calling this article scare tactics respect my choice of buying a seat? Specifically, Kiera, why are you so worked up about this? It seems so much like an either or situation to me. I think you provide great info to help others make an informed decision. But I also feel as if you think those who make the opposite decision then you are being foolish...


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## Kiera09 (Sep 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beru* 
I wonder, do those of you who are calling this article scare tactics respect my choice of buying a seat? Specifically, Kiera, why are you so worked up about this? It seems so much like an either or situation to me. I think you provide great info to help others make an informed decision. But I also feel as if you think those who make the opposite decision then you are being foolish...

I completely respect your choice to do as you see fit. Why wouldn't I?

Do I think it's a waste of money - yes. But it's your money to waste.

I think that the answer is so much more complicated than "It's safer to use a carseat - so everyone should"...

At 9 months, the only way my DD didn't scream until she puked (within 5 minutes or so) when strapped into a carseat was if she either fell asleep because we did it at naptime, or one of us sat next to her and we played a specific loud rock music CD. And that might get us 20 minutes.

So - I object to the insinuation that I'm a bad/negligent mom for making the choice that I did.

I looked up the stats and found that the risks involved were VERY VERY small. The cab ride (with a carseat) out to the airport was far more risky. I was happy to take that risk.

I do think that the article is one written without actual information meant to scare parents into buying seats and using carseats for their small ones. I am a BIG believer is providing people with facts and letting them make their own choices. And the article doesn't do that. It sounds just like many anti-cosleeping articles I've read. "Don't do it - your baby could DIE!!!!!!"


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## beru (Nov 19, 2007)

Oh, I see. I am sorry that I suspected you were being disrespectful. It seems you are just feeling defensive. But please don't. I respect your position and I bet most of us do. If I had a kid that hated her carseat I would make the same choice as you. So I can imagine being in the same boat as you but I don't think I would feel the need to be so defensive about that article. I did not feel that it condemned parents for flying with lapbabies. It did state that lap babies are safer than babies travelling by car in carseats, afterall. I think a lot of parents simply do not know that flying in carseats is safer than flying with lap babies (even if just incrementally you should admit) and the article is trying to be informative on that point. But you have made me come around to the fact that that article isn't very good at reaching its goal. I like your analogy with the cosleeping articles.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kiera09* 
I completely respect your choice to do as you see fit. Why wouldn't I?

Do I think it's a waste of money - yes. But it's your money to waste.

I think that the answer is so much more complicated than "It's safer to use a carseat - so everyone should"...

At 9 months, the only way my DD didn't scream until she puked (within 5 minutes or so) when strapped into a carseat was if she either fell asleep because we did it at naptime, or one of us sat next to her and we played a specific loud rock music CD. And that might get us 20 minutes.

So - I object to the insinuation that I'm a bad/negligent mom for making the choice that I did.

I looked up the stats and found that the risks involved were VERY VERY small. The cab ride (with a carseat) out to the airport was far more risky. I was happy to take that risk.

I do think that the article is one written without actual information meant to scare parents into buying seats and using carseats for their small ones. I am a BIG believer is providing people with facts and letting them make their own choices. And the article doesn't do that. It sounds just like many anti-cosleeping articles I've read. "Don't do it - your baby could DIE!!!!!!"


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