# Another mama's gentle discipline is affecting my kiddo--WWYD



## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

I live in a close-knit condo community, and the kids play together pretty well overall. However, one child tends to target my kiddo--he's 2 1/2 and my DD is almost 3, so there's naturally a little tension at those ages. His mama practices gentle discipline (as do I), but I feel she takes the GD too far and it ends up really affecting my child.

For example, today they were playing and my DD dropped her toy as she ran to the potty. The little boy picked it up, and then she got hysterical about it when she returned. I explained to him that it's her favorite toy (she carries it around like it's a doll) and asked if he would give it back to her. He refused, so his mama tried to get him to give it to her but he still refused. My DD is sitting there hysterical, begging me incoherently to get it back from him. And the mama is explaining to the little boy "look at how upset she is...it sounds like she's trying to tell you that she really wants her toy back...wow, she's really upset."

When that didn't work, the mama asked my DD if she would leave the toy with her son for the afternoon because "look at how much it means to him." My DD is so hysterical at this point that she's red in the face and stuffing her fist in her mouth. And I'm telling the mama that it's not a good idea, that it seems like my DD is indicating that it's too important of a toy to her. But the mama continued imploring my DD to have empathy for her son and to look at how important it seems to him and would my DD be willing to leave it with him. This went on and on and on.

Now, I'm all for GD, I worship Alfie Kohn. But, this seemed like taking it too far to me--I can't wrap my mind around how trying to deal with him gently at all costs while another child is getting more and more hysterical could be appropriate GD.

So, my question is, was this an appropriate way to handle the situation? What should I have done here? This isn't the first time this has happened and probably won't be the last, so I really need a strategy for dealing with this stuff.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I might have stuck my hand out and asked the child to give it to me.

I've had parents do a version of that to me. Their kid comes and yanks something from mine and the parent is all, "Yes, let's take turns. Monkey you can have a turn after Little Timmy is done."

Uh. No. Monkey was clearly in the middle of his turn and he'll be sure to let Timmy know when he's ready to switch it up.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

I'm not the gentelest, but once my dc got more hysterical i would have just told the mother i need the toy back now, we are going home, picked up my dc and held my hand out for the toy.


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## Max'sMama (Apr 3, 2004)

(sorry-I got long winded)

I think that you should have said to the mom and the baby, " that is DD's toy, one that I do not require she share, please return it." If the child is to young to do it himself, I would then tell mom to take it from her child, or I would.

They are children. IMO, it is the parental responsibility to teach their child appropriate actions and reasoning with a child that cannot be expected developmentally to reason, is an waste of time, effort and breath.

I think that some parents (and from your description-your neighbor) forget that Gentle Discipline means Gently TEACH. That includes teaching appropriate behavior. Returning a special toy is something that this mom should be teaching sometimes that includes showing their child that the toy they have MUST be returned immediately. Just as your child couldn't understand why she wasn't getting her toy back, her child couldn't understand it either.

This is why I feel that you should be able and comfortable in saying please return the toy and you shouldn't feel bad about telling the mom that she needs to return the toy IMMEDIATELY to your child. She would probably expect, if the tables were turned, for your child to immediately return her child's prized possession.

I also think that it's absurd for her to see your child getting hysterical and still ask to keep the toy for the afternoon.

I don't know how you kept a straight face. I would have laughed and told her there was no way you would listen to your child/put your child through this over her toy.

After this it may be wise while playing with them to help your daughter leave her favorite item away from other kids, until she is able to more easily share the item. Avoid the situation, you know.


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## BinahYeteirah (Oct 15, 2002)

Well, I'm no Alfie Kohn devotee, but when it was time to go home, I would have just taken the toy. I may have given the mother a minute to try to get it from him her way, but after that I would have just said, "It's time for us to go, so we need this. It belongs to X. Thanks! We'll play together another time. Bye!" I would stop bringing toys to this boy's house if he will not/cannot be convinced return others' things, or only bring toys that you are willing to share or leave there.


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## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wonderwahine* 
I'm not the gentelest, but once my dc got more hysterical i would have just told the mother i need the toy back now, we are going home, picked up my dc and held my hand out for the toy.

This, exactly.


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## Learning_Mum (Jan 5, 2007)

From what you say I'm assuming this toy is some sort of comfort toy for your DD?

If that is the case I think the other mother handled this horribly. DS has a comfort doll called Sam and if another child took it I would say straight out that it was a special toy for DS and hold out my hand. If the other child didn't give it back I would gently take it out of their hands and give it to my DS.

As for her DS, seems to me is all she taught him there was "if you take something that you want, that doesn't belong to you, and then you yell and scream enough I'll let you keep it".


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Yes, I definitely did ask him to return the toy. I stuck out my hand, asked him to give it back, and explained why it was so important (because it was so special to her). When that didn't work, his mama took over with her approach.

I was so rattled by the absurdity of the whole thing, that I think I couldn't quite believe it was all happening. It sounds like I need to get more mama bear (both with him and his own mama) the next time.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I think both you and the other mom started out just fine. But when he didn't give up the toy after a few minutes, and she was getting upset, it was time to simply say "OK, give the toy back now" and, if necessary, yank it out of his hands (only if he didn't return it when directly told, not asked, to do so.)

I also think you should talk to the other mama at a calm moment and explain how important this toy is to DD and how you expect her to respond if this happens again.

Just curious- how was this conflict eventually resolved?


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
I think both you and the other mom started out just fine. But when he didn't give up the toy after a few minutes, and she was getting upset, it was time to simply say "OK, give the toy back now" and, if necessary, yank it out of his hands (only if he didn't return it when directly told, not asked, to do so.)

Really? You would forcibly remove it from him? I've been really uncomfortable with that, especially with her sitting right there.

This happens to us a lot with them.







You guys are really helping me.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
Really? You would forcibly remove it from him? I've been really uncomfortable with that, especially with her sitting right there.

This happens to us a lot with them.







You guys are really helping me.









after your 2nd post i would tottaly remove it


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
Really? You would forcibly remove it from him? I've been really uncomfortable with that, especially with her sitting right there.

This happens to us a lot with them.







You guys are really helping me.

I would be uncomfortable with that, too.

Honestly, we've just gotten to the point where my kids end up not wanting to be around those kids, and I don't want to be around those kids, and so we just decide to stop being around those kids.


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## Learning_Mum (Jan 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
Really? You would forcibly remove it from him? I've been really uncomfortable with that, especially with her sitting right there.

This happens to us a lot with them.







You guys are really helping me.

The thing is though, you don't need to rip it out of his hands, just *firmly* remove it. I know that it would be uncomfortable with his mother there, but in all honesty she should have done it when she saw how upset your daughter was getting! He's only two and a half for goodness sake! I know my DS is pretty on to it - he seems to be developing alot of empathy and understanding in situations like this, but when it comes down to it they're still only little and there's only so much reasoning you can do with them!


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

OK, maybe "yank it out of his hands" is stronger language than I meant. It's the "mama bear" talking. I'd take it out firmly but respectfully- otherwise it's not respectful to the first child.

If telling him to give the toy back didn't work, and my child was getting hysterical- then the other child needs to understand that the toy isnt' his and he can't keep it. How can he be made to understand? When he's 3 years old and doesn't have a full grasp of language? He learns by actions. It's not his toy, he doesn't get to keep on holding it.

I'd probably try to trade a different toy for that one, if possible- but if he wouldn't accept the trade, then I'd take it. It's called being fair. He's holding a toy that isn't his, it gets taken away and maybe he cries. What's the alternative? DD punished for dropping her toy on the way to the potty? So she should want to use diapers now so she won't have to let go of her toy while being changed?

Tell me how letting him continue to hold the toy is fair to either child.


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## mamabohl (May 21, 2005)

I'm actually a little confused here, he didn't take it from her, right? He picked it up when she dropped it on the way to the bathroom, and beeing only 2.5 he probably didn't understand why this particular toy would have different rules than any other toy. I think it was strange that the other mother tried to convince your child to let him have it for the afternoon, that was wierd, but I also don't think it would've been right to take it from the boy unless you were about to go home. And even then I would leave it up to the mom, telling her that we need to go and the toy must come home with us. In the future I would talk to dd about not bringing any toys she's not willing to share. That's what I always do with both my boys, cuz if you put a toy down and leave it (even on accident) it's fair game, kwim?


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I've stopped hanging out with kids like this too... not a great solution but the best I've had so far, as I've kind of chickened out of talking honestly with other mama friends about their parenting. It's such a personal subject, but OTOH I abhor that kind of behaviour and ineffective parenting.


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## LianneM (May 26, 2004)

I'm curious where you were playing - his house, your house or a community area? We really try not to bring toys places that we don't need toys. If DS needs to bring something with him, I always ask him if he'd like to leave it in the car (maybe even "to keep it safe") and he almost always agrees. It's just easier not to deal with ownership issues if you don't have to.

That said, clearly the boy didn't do anything wrong by picking up the toy. Upon your dd returning from the potty, it might have been helpful to say, "DD is back, it's time to return the toy," or something like that, hopefully before she could freak out.

If I were the boy's mother, I would have offered him a trade, and then taken it if he refused the trade. I absolutely do not think the mother in your story handled it appropriately, especially asking your dd to let him KEEP IT after she was so upset.

In your position, I agree with the others - pack up and let the mom know you need the toy now. The play time was probably ruined anyway since she got so upset.


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

Am I reading this wrong? Your DD dropped the toy, right? And then he picked it up? While I think that other Mama is insane to think your dd should let him use it for the afternoon, I also think it's unfair to expect the boy to know there are special rules attached to that one toy.









My DS had a comfort stuffed puppy and we simply could not take it anywhere another child might touch it. My son would get so upset, and other kids couldn't understand why puppy was different from the other toys.

While that other mama was certainly "out there" with her handling, I also think it must have been very confusing for her child as well. With that age group, I'd refrain from bringing any special toys, etc to play with. But then again, at that age my kid didn't play well with others, so we rarely had playdates.









Sorry your little one got so upset.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

While I understand that your child dropped the toy to go potty and the other child probably didn't understand the significance, I also believe that the other mom could _easily_ understand the significance, and I am in agreement that if the mom couldn't get the toy from her child in a reasonably brief time period, as your child got more and more hysterical, I would also be comfortable in saying to the other mom something like, "I'm going to gently take the toy from him and put it away" and then do just that - gently unwrap his hand from it while empathizing with him, something like, "this is a really cool toy, I know - it's really special to DD so I'm going to put it away so we don't have any more hurt feelings and you can play together with other things". And then take my child aside and calm them down and talk for a couple minutes about putting it away for the rest of the play date.

And I agree with another PP, this is why I don't let my kiddos bring prized possessions to playgroups, and/or put them away before friends come over - or, they bring them but leave them in the car or have them in my bag so they can come and check in with them, but I really discourage them from bringing them out at playgroups for exactly this reason. I know, hindsight is 20/20 and I'm not trying to make you feel badly, but in the future I'd probably explain to her that prized possessions should stay in the car or your bag at playgroups, and remind her of this incident as a good reason why.

So yeah - the other mom didn't handle it well IMO.


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## my3peanuts (Nov 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mistymama* 
Am I reading this wrong? Your DD dropped the toy, right? And then he picked it up? While I think that other Mama is insane to think your dd should let him use it for the afternoon, I also think it's unfair to expect the boy to know there are special rules attached to that one toy.









My DS had a comfort stuffed puppy and we simply could not take it anywhere another child might touch it. My son would get so upset, and other kids couldn't understand why puppy was different from the other toys.

While that other mama was certainly "out there" with her handling, I also think it must have been very confusing for her child as well. With that age group, I'd refrain from bringing any special toys, etc to play with. But then again, at that age my kid didn't play well with others, so we rarely had playdates.









Sorry your little one got so upset.









I agree with this.

For future playdates if this is a toy that your dd needs to bring with her I'd be on my toes for when she drops it and I'd go pick it up before it became an issue.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

I would not bring an important toy to any place where there are other children.

I would try to offer the other child a trade if his mother would not take the toy out of his hand. I would never physically take anything from another child, though.

In the end, if the mother is no help and the toy is not coming back any time soon, I would comfort and soothe and distract my child as best I could and try not to inadvertently reinforce her belief that she cannot live without this toy.

Its hard, but in toddler law anything that is not being used is fair game. I would really try hard to either make sure that particular toy does not get dropped or leave the toy at home.


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
Really? You would forcibly remove it from him? I've been really uncomfortable with that, especially with her sitting right there.

This happens to us a lot with them.







You guys are really helping me.

I wouldn't tear it from the child's hands, but I would attempt to take it at that point (while making sure to say something like "dd is very upset, I'm going to give her toy back to her now"). If the child resisted, I would say to the mom "I'm sorry, but I need that toy back now. It's her special toy and she's very upset, please get it back."

That being said, I agree with this-

Quote:

I would not bring an important toy to any place where there are other children.
DD1 had a toy like that, and it never came with us when we went out to play. If people came over here, that toy went into my room. That way we avoided things like this!

Of course, if your child is very attached to it and needs to have it around, that's probably not possible.


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mistymama* 
Am I reading this wrong? Your DD dropped the toy, right? And then he picked it up? While I think that other Mama is insane to think your dd should let him use it for the afternoon, I also think it's unfair to expect the boy to know there are special rules attached to that one toy.









Yeah, I agree with you that he didn't understand the significance at all. My big problem was just the fact that it seemed to be her comfort toy that day, and I was really stuck between trying to explain that to him, pursuading his mama to help out, and comforting my hysterical kiddo. The fact that he didn't get it at all (and wouldn't be expected to) is why I was annoyed with his mama's handling and definitely not him.

It's happened several times before with the two of them, but it's usually more forceful--she's playing a game and he takes the pieces and runs away, she's on a tricycle and he wants to use it and so pushes her off. So I'm not sure leaving this particular toy at home will completely eliminate this issue for us. But, I'll definitely try the substituting technique.


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## Elvirnon (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie* 
In the end, if the mother is no help and the toy is not coming back any time soon, I would comfort and soothe and distract my child as best I could and try not to inadvertently reinforce her belief that she cannot live without this toy.

I just do not get this at all. The kid learns that if she lets go of her lovey at any time, it's fair game for another kid to keep until he's good and ready to give it up, even if it means that he gets to take it home with him? Not cool. I'd ask the other mother if she wanted to take the toy out of her son's hand, or if she wanted me to. And that would be our last playdate with them.


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## aran (Feb 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie* 
I would never physically take anything from another child, though.

In the end, if the mother is no help and the toy is not coming back any time soon, I would comfort and soothe and distract my child as best I could and try not to inadvertently reinforce her belief that she cannot live without this toy.

Its hard, but in toddler law anything that is not being used is fair game. I would really try hard to either make sure that particular toy does not get dropped or leave the toy at home.









:
And why would it make sense for "toddler law" to rule the day?

I teach my toddler what is socially acceptable, with empathy for his toddler feelings. In this case, it would probably mean telling the mom that she needs to get the toy in my hands now, because dc needs to leave... and then leave. If the mom didn't take the toy, I would warn her that I need to do it, and then I'd take it (saying nicely "sorry, but we need to leave and dc needs her toy now").

Teaching dc that she doesn't need that toy can be done on different ways - like a pp suggested by putting the toy where no-one can use it for a while, or by leaving and having some discussions when things are settled down. Tring to teach in the heat of the moment is not going to work well, IME.

I think the expectation to share *everything* is unrealistic. I certainly own things I am not willing to share. ("Oh my wedding ring fell off in the sink and you decided - without asking me - to wear it for the rest of the afternoon just because you happened to find it?" or "Yeah, that's my cell phone on the shelf, I see you think it's cool, huh? Oh you are going to just take it and read through my messages, look at my pictures and contact lists without asking me?" See how ridiculous?)

I agree that much angst can be avoided by not bringing cherished items around other kids. But your dc needs to decide for herself to share her items. They are ultimately hers and understanding sharing means, first, understanding ownership. The borrower is not the one who should decide sharing arrangements - that will teach dc to be resentful, stingy and miserly, ultimately, IMO.

ETA: cross-post with the op - I see it happens with sharing in general, and not just with special items. I really wouldn't want my dc playing with this boy if he's behaving like this regularly, unchecked. But I think kid-kid interactions at such young ages are highly overrated so I just avoid the kids with behaviors I don't want to see in my sons.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
Yeah, I agree with you that he didn't understand the significance at all. My big problem was just the fact that it seemed to be her comfort toy that day, and I was really stuck between trying to explain that to him, pursuading his mama to help out, and comforting my hysterical kiddo. The fact that he didn't get it at all (and wouldn't be expected to) is why I was annoyed with his mama's handling and definitely not him.

It's happened several times before with the two of them, but it's usually more forceful--she's playing a game and he takes the pieces and runs away, she's on a tricycle and he wants to use it and so pushes her off. So I'm not sure leaving this particular toy at home will completely eliminate this issue for us. But, I'll definitely try the substituting technique.


If I were you, I think I would do more disciplining of the boy. I would kind of act like I would if the mother wasn't there. For example, if he came to push my dd off of her trike, I'd say, "Dd is still using it, you'll have to wait your turn. Here, want to play with XYZ?" Have you tried that? I think your dd would appreciate you standing up for her, and you can model it for her so she can learn it too. In fact, you could even tell her, "Dd, if you're not finished with the trike, you can tell him that you're still having a turn. Say, 'I'm not finished, don't push me!'"


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## Jojo F. (Apr 7, 2007)

I do the same thing with DS, he likes to bring something with him, but we leave it in the car to "keep it safe". That way he gets to bring it and there is no chance for something like what you described to happen.

Also, the boy did not really understand what it meant to her and the initial picking up of the toy I don't think was a major problem. But it was him not giving it back after your daughter was hysterical.

Been there, but my experience is a little more drastic. One child hits my DS with toys, hands, kicks, pulls his shirt etc. And then I have to sit there and watch the mother basically do nothing or attempt to do something(however you want to look at it). I am tempted to not let them play any more. But he really likes playing with the other kids there and I like the moms too.

IMHO, there is a time and place for GD(no, I am not advocating spanking), but SOMETHING has to be done about the situation. My child is being physically hurt and that is not acceptable. If it were only a toy problem.


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## tinuviel_k (Apr 29, 2004)

Quote:

Really? You would forcibly remove it from him? I've been really uncomfortable with that, especially with her sitting right there.
I would have gently removed the toy from his grasp and given him another to replace it. Like you I would have given his mama the opportunity to do so first, but since she was sitting there trying to convince your extremely upset daughter to give up her lovey for an entire afternoon I would have intervened.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

I would have told the other mother to get the toy...NOW. She had a lot of nerve asking your sobbing DD to let him keep it ALL DAY! WTH?!







:


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

If this is normally the problem you might have dd put the toy up "for a nap" when the little boy comes over. That way she isn't forced to share it. Or you could scoop up the toy when she drops it.

I know this is only one example but preventing the run-ins might be the best option.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

I wouldn't have taken the toy from one child and given it to another. But I would ask for the toy and then I would have put the toy in time out.

We don't really do time outs with dd, but there have been several toys that have been placed in time out.









It might sound funny but it works well.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abimommy* 
I wouldn't have taken the toy from one child and given it to another. But I would ask for the toy and then I would have put the toy in time out.

We don't really do time outs with dd, but there have been several toys that have been placed in time out.









It might sound funny but it works well.

I think putting a comfort item in "time out" would be even more tramatic on the poor little girl.


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## LauraN (May 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabohl* 
I'm actually a little confused here, he didn't take it from her, right? He picked it up when she dropped it on the way to the bathroom, and beeing only 2.5 he probably didn't understand why this particular toy would have different rules than any other toy. I think it was strange that the other mother tried to convince your child to let him have it for the afternoon, that was wierd, but I also don't think it would've been right to take it from the boy unless you were about to go home. And even then I would leave it up to the mom, telling her that we need to go and the toy must come home with us. In the future I would talk to dd about not bringing any toys she's not willing to share. That's what I always do with both my boys, cuz if you put a toy down and leave it (even on accident) it's fair game, kwim?

That. I haven't read farther than this, but this is what we do. Once a toy is dropped, it's fair game. If there's a toy that's so special that you can't handle sharing it, then you leave it at home, or let mommy hold it in the diaper bag. Anything that is out when other children are around is fair game once dropped.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wonderwahine* 
I think putting a comfort item in "time out" would be even more tramatic on the poor little girl.

I think the actual traumatic part is someone else playing with her favorite toy.

Once the "problem" toy is out of sight IME the kids often go back to playing.

Remove the toy from sight, then distract the kids with something else.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
It's happened several times before with the two of them, but it's usually more forceful--she's playing a game and he takes the pieces and runs away, she's on a tricycle and he wants to use it and so pushes her off. So I'm not sure leaving this particular toy at home will completely eliminate this issue for us. But, I'll definitely try the substituting technique.

sounds like there is more than just this one incident behind this. I would just stop playing together or near each other.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abimommy* 
I think the actual traumatic part is someone else playing with her favorite toy.

Once the "problem" toy is out of sight IME the kids often go back to playing.

Remove the toy from sight, then distract the kids with something else.

if it was her comfort toy, i highly doubt putting it up where even she couldnt touch it would make her calm.


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## Bellejar (Oct 2, 2005)

I don't think the little boy was out of line to have picked up the toy and taken a turn when it was dropped by your DD. It is really hard for a toddler to understand that it was a special toy and it was dropped.

I also agree with the posters about not bringing special toys to playdates with young children - two and a half is a hard age for sharing.

We have a firm rule that toys that are brought with us to play are toys to share with our friends. If you don't want to share it you don't bring it. It is a bright line rule that a two or three year old can understand.

I also agree with just removing the toy completely for a time out. We do this when our girls fight over a toy.

Also I might suggest trying the "if you leave the toy with your friend it will be there to play with next time we are together."

This works well for us with our neighbor. My daughter gets that there are different toys to play with next door and if we leave them they will be there when we come back to play.


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## alllyssa (Sep 1, 2004)

Your scenario reminds me of a Goldie Hawn movie (I can't remember the name, but I think it was the one with the scary husband) when her daughter "leant" a very expensive necklace of her's to a friend. She went to the friend and her mother to retrieve it and the mother went on and on with her kid trying to convince her that she needed to return it. Goldie finally screams, "Who's the parent here!!" and grabs the necklace from the kid.

Gentle discipline isn't supposed to be about turning our kids into spoiled brats, but unfortunately that's how a lot of people see it - it's gone to the extreme of almost "un-parenting" and not being able to tell your kiddo "no" or "give that back right to her".

I just don't get your friend and would be reluctant to spend a lot of time w/ her and her son if this is how things turn out. And please ask your daughter to put her very special toys away when she plays with a friend. The stress is just not worth it.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wonderwahine* 
if it was her comfort toy, i highly doubt putting it up where even she couldnt touch it would make her calm.

In my experience, it works.

You don't want one hysterical child and one happy child, that isn't fair to sobbing child and it isn't a very fun playdate if one child is hysterical. If the toy is out of sight both children tend to move on.

I do that with ANY fights over a toy. I have ended up with half a toybox on top of my fridge but they learn eventually.


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## Jojo F. (Apr 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alllyssa* 
Gentle discipline isn't supposed to be about turning our kids into spoiled brats, but unfortunately that's how a lot of people see it - it's gone to the extreme of almost "un-parenting" and not being able to tell your kiddo "no" or "give that back right to her".









:


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## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
If I were you, I think I would do more disciplining of the boy. I would kind of act like I would if the mother wasn't there. For example, if he came to push my dd off of her trike, I'd say, "Dd is still using it, you'll have to wait your turn. Here, want to play with XYZ?" Have you tried that? I think your dd would appreciate you standing up for her, and you can model it for her so she can learn it too. In fact, you could even tell her, "Dd, if you're not finished with the trike, you can tell him that you're still having a turn. Say, 'I'm not finished, don't push me!'"

I agree. I'm also fine with it if others do the same with my daughter, if I am not right there.


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## homewithtwinsmama (Jan 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
Really? You would forcibly remove it from him? I've been really uncomfortable with that, especially with her sitting right there.

This happens to us a lot with them.







You guys are really helping me.

I would absolutely have taken it from his hands at that point. Gently, but insistently. If the mama won't do it, then you have to for your child. I would be speaking kindly to the boy, but telling him that its not okay to keep her toy and let her get so upset and that it is coming with us since we are leaving now. There is gentle discipline and there is child rules the roost to the point where everyone else has to suffer so the little prince doesn't get his feathers ruffled. To me that does not qualify as GD, just timid parenting.


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## Max'sMama (Apr 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *homewithtwinsmama* 
There is gentle discipline and there is child rules the roost to the point where everyone else has to suffer so the little prince doesn't get his feathers ruffled. To me that does not qualify as GD, just timid parenting.

I agree and think that this is the case way too often.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

This was perfectly reasonable for the little boy to want to keep it. It must be the coolest toy ever, cuz look at the reaction this awsome thing is causing.

So, since a two year old can't be "cajoled" into it (they are too smart for that) , you have every right to put your hand out and tell him "it's time for the toy to go inside now".

Sometimes, the situation doesn't call for reasoning. Sometimes it's "You need to give that back now. Thank you!"

Or, "I like sharing with you, but it's time for you to give that to me". WHen he does, offer him something else. Not as a bribe, but as a sign that you really DO like sharing with him.

If you happen to find his Mom's car keys on the ground, take them and be sure to hang on to them, since you feel like it's your turn to use them. Assure her that when you are done you will give them to her to use next.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wonderwahine* 
I think putting a comfort item in "time out" would be even more tramatic on the poor little girl.

No, it really isn't. We do this all the time. It's a safe haven for the toy, and the owner doesn't need to worry about it because it is on the fridge, or in Mommy's purse. That way it's where the owner knows it is safe. Kids appreciate you putting their things away to be kept away from others. We also call it "toy time out".


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
No, it really isn't. We do this all the time. It's a safe haven for the toy, and the owner doesn't need to worry about it because it is on the fridge, or in Mommy's purse. That way it's where the owner knows it is safe. Kids appreciate you putting their things away to be kept away from others. We also call it "toy time out".

We totally do toy time out, too and it works. But if at that moment, the child who owns the toy really needed it, then it would be time to leave, give her the toy and off you go. Since this is a recurring issue, the child with the beloved toy will easily remember, next time, if you remind her that special toys need to stay in the car, or in the bag, so that they won't be shared.

I would have said, in no uncertain terms, within one minute, that we were getting the toy back, BUT I would have offered up a bunch of toys in trade.

I'm very surprised that the mother of the child didn't just think to offer up a toy in trade.

I'd be tempted to stop having playdates with them though.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
No, it really isn't. We do this all the time. It's a safe haven for the toy, and the owner doesn't need to worry about it because it is on the fridge, or in Mommy's purse. That way it's where the owner knows it is safe. Kids appreciate you putting their things away to be kept away from others. We also call it "toy time out".

While I agree that kids will appreciate you protecting their favorite things, or even taking the stress of a disputed item out of the picture for a while, I take issue with calling it a toy time out, as if the toy was "being bad". I think that sends a weird message to the kid, as if it's the toy's fault that there is a problem going on. I don't know, maybe it's just me. And believe me, I have removed items from play areas until parties can cool off, if they are being inapropriately handled, used to hurt others, etc. - so it's not that I never had removed a toy from a child. It could just be semantics, but I think it's a little more than that in this case. Mybe it's because of the threat/punishment feeling behind, "do you want that toy to go in time out?" as opposed to a more direct, "hey, you guys are obviously struggling with this, so we're going to get it out of sight for a while". I think that's the catching point for me.

/end ramble


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Totally agree 4OfUs!


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## LianneM (May 26, 2004)

hmm that's interesting - I think of "time out" as just needing a break. I give myself a time out when I need to step away and regroup. Time out isn't punishment in all families, but I can see how using the term could be confusing with other kids who DO know it as punishment.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I found that, when my kids were familiar with the concept of "time out" as a punishment, they thought it very amusing to have the toy put in "time out". I'd put the door in "time out" if they walked into the door ("Bad door! Stay in the corner!")- it was silly and playful and broke the tension.

I do think they were a bit bigger at that point, though, maybe 4 and 5 when I started doing that, which is a huge developmental leap from 2.5 and 3.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

maybe I'm just coming from my current situation and POV..... I know that no wy in heck would ds allow us to put a toy up and away if it was his comfort item, and once hes got hysterical, theres no point in trying to carry on with anything, the only option is to leave.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LianneM* 
hmm that's interesting - I think of "time out" as just needing a break. I give myself a time out when I need to step away and regroup. Time out isn't punishment in all families, but I can see how using the term could be confusing with other kids who DO know it as punishment.

Hm..that's true. I suppose "taking a nap" would be an alternative.

We don't really use "time out" in the punishment sense either, more of "needs a break" type thing around here.


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

Oh wow, if that were my son, I would have unceremoniously removed the toy from him, returned it to your DD, and THEN I would have worked with him through the meltdown (if he had one). My policy when my kids are playing with others is, "The other person first."


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## apurrfectplace (Nov 17, 2007)

self-discipline. The mom of that boy handled the situation horribly. It is like, she did not want her son to react the way your daughter reacted. Her behavior to me was over the top. I would have firmly said, how he needs to understand the concept of sharing toys and ask for the toy back.

I am slowly learning in my old age that when you set boundaries and expectations of others, firmly, without rancor, they have more respect. If you fail to do so, then people (even kids) tend to walk all over you. That is what the mom did to you. And she is teaching her son to do the same. He will never learn the concept of self-discipline and inner control if he is not taught by example. He will just end up being a me, me, me kid who feels entitled to everything and works for nothing.

I have never read a Kohn book but it seems to me, gentle discipline is all about being sensitive to anothers' needs... and the other mom failed in this regard.

Next time, I would set the expectation with this mom... that when her son is over the top, it is time for you to leave or her to take her son and go. And without the toy.

Good luck,


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

I'm really surprised at how many people are okay with taking something out of a child's hand. My policy is unless a child is causing damage (or there is risk of damage) to the item, damage to something else or harm to someone else than I don't forcibly (no matter how gently) remove it from their hand. I understand how a mom wants to protect her child especially when they are visibly upset, but frankly I don't see why in this particular incident the op's dd needed to be given the toy back just because she became hysterical. Don't get me wrong I don't believe in forced "sharing" of toys. A child should be given as much time as they need to explore and use a toy, but in the original incident the child put down the toy on her own. The little boy did not rip it from her hands. I hear people saying that the other mom is teaching her ds to be a "spoiled brat" but why isn't a mother who thinks her child should immediately get her way just because she is throwing a tantrum not also teaching that child to be "spoiled" (Just so we're straight I don't think either child is spoiled or becoming spoiled, I think both mom's just want there little ones to be happy). I also don't think that the OP's dd is going to be traumatized by waiting until the little boy was done with the toy, no matter how hysterical she was. It sounded to me like the other mom was trying to problem solve (which is rarely effective when dealing with someone who is hysterical). So even though the suggestion to let her son hang on to the toy for the afternoon seemed ludicrous, perhaps she was just trying to generate multiple ideas. It also appears that physically removing something from a child goes against her parenting philosophy, frankly that is a perfectly valid and respectable belief. Knowing (now) that this is her philosophy the OP can in the future choose not to have playdates with this family or take steps to prevent too much conflict in the future.

Start by explaining to your dd that she must not bring anything she is unwilling to share. If she changes her mind about an item once play has begun she can ask you to hold the item to"keep it safe" so the other boy won't use it. If they boy takes something out of your daughters hands than I think that insisting the child return the toy is fine. Using a firm tone and being persistent will eventually get the toy returned to you. That doesn't mean you should let the boy run off and play with the toy, but you will have to be patient and persistent and stay near him until the toy is returned.

I think that will help prevent future conflicts. I hope. Also i think its perfectly reasonable to talk with the mom about how her parenting style and yours differ and decide ahead of time how you guys want to deal with conflicts.


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *junipermuse* 
I understand how a mom wants to protect her child especially when they are visibly upset, but frankly I don't see why in this particular incident the op's dd needed to be given the toy back just because she became hysterical.

Well, I guess for me it was because it belongs to my DD. I understand the need to be as gentle as possible, but I'm getting stuck on the idea that it isn't important who this toy belonged to. Perhaps that's my own hang-up.


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
Well, I guess for me it was because it belongs to my DD. I understand the need to be as gentle as possible, but I'm getting stuck on the idea that it isn't important who this toy belonged to. Perhaps that's my own hang-up.

Young children don't understand ownership in the same way that adults do. At the park playdates we go to, all toys are shared by all children. We don't bring toys that can't be shared. Then acting from the assumption that a toy is open for everyone to play with the toy's ownership isn't a factor when disputes arise. Of course at the end of the day everyone goes home with their own toys. Frankly I think its good for a child to see that even when someone else plays with their toy, it still belongs to them and will go home with them when the playdate is over. To bring a toy that can't be shared to a situation where there are other children is setting the stage for conflict.


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## Elvirnon (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *junipermuse* 
Frankly I think its good for a child to see that even when someone else plays with their toy, it still belongs to them and will go home with them when the playdate is over.

Sure, but that wasn't the case with the OP. The boy's mother refused to get the toy back so that it could go home with its owner at the end of the playdate; she wanted him to be able to take the toy home.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

I am really curious how the other mother would have handled the situation if it had been reversed.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *junipermuse* 
To bring a toy that can't be shared to a situation where there are other children is setting the stage for conflict.


I agree, and dd and I were always conscious of keeping "special" toys at home (or in the car....or mommy's bag) when with friends. But what if the child realizes when they are out that the toy they brought is too special? What if they intended to share, but then felt unable?

I always said, "dd didn't realize how special that toy is, and she isn't willing to share it right now. Could I please have the toy so I can put it away?" (and then the toy got put away until after the playdate). I've never had a child refuse, and I'm not sure how I would handle it if I had. I would hope that the other mother would support me in getting the toy put away for the duration of the playdate.

Now, if dd were unable to share *any* toys, we would simply go home. It had to be one or two truly special toys--not every toy in the house, lol. But dd never had a lovey, so her special toys were always changing.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Elvirnon* 
Sure, but that wasn't the case with the OP. The boy's mother refused to get the toy back so that it could go home with its owner at the end of the playdate; she wanted him to be able to take the toy home.

Totally. If the op's dd was completely melting down, and the op decided it was simply time to go, then the toy needed to be returned to the op (mom or dd) so that they could leave with the toy. I can't see anything else being reasonable (unless the op's dd agreed to lend the toy, of course).


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## LianneM (May 26, 2004)

In response to the post by *junipermuse*:

I see your point about not intervening as long as there isn't damage being done to the toy, but I disagree that "just because she became hysterical" isn't a good enough reason or "damaging" in itself. Only the OP knows how her child was reacting - whether in tantrum or truly hurtful hysterics. As a mother, I'm not willing to err on the side of my child hurting b/c others might think it's just a tantrum and see my action as giving in. He depends on me to stand up for him and I see that as my job.

I had to do this today while out with a friend and her dd - she always brings special toys with her and has a very hard time sharing. It's awfully hard on my ds, every time, and I'm never quite prepared b/c of our rule of leaving things in the car. She did let my ds play with a few things today but when she wanted them back, I talked to him about it and one item he gave back willingly and the other I removed from his hands b/c he just couldn't get to the place where he could do it. It sucked for a few minutes but he knows I would do the same for him.


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

I hate scenarios like these - there never seems to be a right answer.










Yes, the obvious _future_ thing to do would be to leave important/comfort objects at home.

Yes, the original little person dropped the toy, and the second one picked it up, so he _didn't do anything wrong_.

BUT, I truly think that as the situation escalated, it was the other mother's responsibility to remove the toy from her child and return it to the owner.

I would never, EVER allow another child to become that hysterical while MY child 'explored' a toy that she randomly picked up. Even if dd became upset at that point, I would redirect/explain/hell.even.leave. if we had to...

I've had other mothers do this to dd at playgroup, if I wasn't paying attention or wasn't close enough to intervene - and I've also done it to other children.

Maybe it depends on your relationship with the other parent and other child? Obviously the best course of action and/or result is to not have to physically remove the object from the second child's hand - however, this situaton was getting out of control and I would have definitely reached gently in, taken the toy, and said we had to go home.


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
I am really curious how the other mother would have handled the situation if it had been reversed.

I agree, and dd and I were always conscious of keeping "special" toys at home (or in the car....or mommy's bag) when with friends. But what if the child realizes when they are out that the toy they brought is too special? What if they intended to share, but then felt unable?

I always said, "dd didn't realize how special that toy is, and she isn't willing to share it right now. Could I please have the toy so I can put it away?" (and then the toy got put away until after the playdate). I've never had a child refuse, and I'm not sure how I would handle it if I had. I would hope that the other mother would support me in getting the toy put away for the duration of the playdate.

Now, if dd were unable to share *any* toys, we would simply go home. It had to be one or two truly special toys--not every toy in the house, lol. But dd never had a lovey, so her special toys were always changing.

I totally understand a child changing their mind. I already suggested that a child who changes their mind after arriving at a playdate, hand the toy to their mama to "keep it safe". However if the child changes their mind once the other child has begun playing with it, I don't feel the other child should be punished by having the toy forcibly removed from their hands. Sometimes children have to feel the natural consequences of their choices. And in that case the natural consequence of bringing the toy is allowing the other child to play with it until they are finished. At that point the mama can hold on to the toy to "keep it safe."

I think the words you choose to use about the your child changing their mind are very appropriate, and it sounds like you aren't taking the toy from the other child only requesting that they return it. I have no problem with that, in fact I think it really helps your child to know that their feelings have been heard. My biggest issue is with the idea of forcibly removing a toy from a child's hand, especially when that child has already shown an inclination to take toys from others. Taking a toy from a child just shows that its okay to use force to get your way because you are bigger and stronger. I think when the other child refuses to return the item the two best choices are to patiently and persistently insist that the child return the item, or to model graciousness in allowing the child to play with the toy until they are finished.


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## LianneM (May 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *junipermuse* 
My biggest issue is with the idea of forcibly removing a toy from a child's hand, especially when that child has already shown an inclination to take toys from others. Taking a toy from a child just shows that its okay to use force to get your way because you are bigger and stronger. I think when the other child refuses to return the item the two best choices are to patiently and persistently insist that the child return the item, or to model graciousness in allowing the child to play with the toy until they are finished.

I hear you, and I totally agree in theory. I wish this worked all the time. I have a friend who does this with her two boys and it is SO good to watch. I think it's a great thing to do with siblings (and I'm sure you get TONS of practice with siblings







)

It's a hard situation. I just know that I do sometimes make the choice to remove a toy from my child's hands and I empathize and explain and talk about it MORE after he's calm and can actually hear me. These things can always become learning experiences. IME my DS remembers everything and seems glad to talk about hard times after the fact, and even what we could do next time to make things better. I would have a much harder time removing a toy from another child's hands, but depending on the level of upset and the reaction from the other parent, I would do it if necessary to get out of there.

I don't know, maybe it's a lesson that if an adult asks you to return a toy and you refuse, that doesn't mean you get to keep it? Just thinking out loud. Maybe I'm a lot less consensual than others of you. There are some things that just have to be done, and I have never yet found myself saying "because I said so" and wouldn't need to in this situation either, but the fact THAT I said so and explained why IS a good enough reason, and if you can't handle doing it yourself I guess I will help get it done. I don't know. Good, thought-provoking stuff


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LianneM* 
In response to the post by *junipermuse*:

I see your point about not intervening as long as there isn't damage being done to the toy, but I disagree that "just because she became hysterical" isn't a good enough reason or "damaging" in itself. Only the OP knows how her child was reacting - whether in tantrum or truly hurtful hysterics. As a mother, I'm not willing to err on the side of my child hurting b/c others might think it's just a tantrum and see my action as giving in. He depends on me to stand up for him and I see that as my job.
.

I am honestly trying to imagine what possible hurt could come from a child having to wait a few minutes to get their toy returned. I also said that the OP had every right to insist that boy return the toy by being firm patient and persistent. I truly believe that it is an abuse of the adult's power to physically remove an item from a childs hand just because its quicker and easier then working through the problem with them.

I also find it interesting that you mention not caving into social pressure with regards to protecting your own child, and I think its very important not to cave to social pressure when parenting one's child, but if the other mama had forcibly removed the toy from her son against her better judgement, it would have been caving to social pressure as well.


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## Kennedyzoo (Jun 17, 2007)

I'm also a bit surprised that so many posters felt that the 2.5 boy and his mother were unreasonable in this situation when the actions of the little girl to both abandon a toy and then have a tantrum were really her choices. Maybe this wasn't a common reaction for the DD of the OP, in which case maybe that was unnerving in itself. My third daughter especially reacted quite dramatically if she was thwarted and unfortunately I gave in quite quickly to these tantrums out of both embarrassment and frustration. However, at 18 this DS often carries the attitude of entitlement and disrespect that my older two daughters never had. I just don't think giving in to her immediate demand for her is helpful in her socialization process.

Although it seems that the other mother was a bit over the top to ask that her son " keep the toy for the afternoon", she doesn't have a voice here and may have been misunderstood. It is quite likely and reasonable that she just thought a bit of time would have her son lose interest and the toy easily returned. She certainly should not have expected to take the toy home no matter how attached her son became to it.

But in the end the little boy is no more in danger of becoming a spoiled brat by not immediately giving in to the demands of the little girl than she is by having her tantrum appeased.

The best advice has been given...plan ahead and avoid bringing "special" toys into common areas and prepare your child to share those that they do bring as they will share those of others.

Suzanne


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## mackysmama (Jan 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *junipermuse* 
I think when the other child refuses to return the item the two best choices are to patiently and persistently insist that the child return the item, or to model graciousness in allowing the child to play with the toy until they are finished.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *junipermuse* 
I am honestly trying to imagine what possible hurt could come from a child having to wait a few minutes to get their toy returned. I also said that the OP had every right to insist that boy return the toy by being firm patient and persistent.

I agree with most everything you said except for the above quotes. I think the big issue with the OP is that the other mother wanted her son to take the toy home with him, not just let him have a turn for a few minutes. She was explaining to the trantruming child how important HER toy was to this boy and that he should be able to take it home with him. I think that is hurtful to a child and that is abuse of adult power. That makes no sense. That's a BIG difference from wanting to explore it, take a turn, taking a LONG turn... that's wanting to transfer ownership! At that point, IMO, the OP should have said it was time to go and we need our toy and leave it to the other mother to get it from the child - they already did patient and persistent.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kennedyzoo* 
I'm also a bit surprised that so many posters felt that the 2.5 boy and his mother were unreasonable in this situation when the actions of the little girl to both *abandon a toy* and then have a tantrum were really her choices.

(bold mine)

I guess it is significant to me that she dropped the toy as she ran to the potty (as stated in the op). To me, that isn't abandoning the toy. That is going to the potty, lol. I want my kids to feel comfortable going to the potty (not risking accidents) knowing that they can return to their activity afterwards. Just another angle to consider.....


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LianneM* 
I hear you, and I totally agree in theory. I wish this worked all the time. I have a friend who does this with her two boys and it is SO good to watch. I think it's a great thing to do with siblings (and I'm sure you get TONS of practice with siblings







)

It's a hard situation. I just know that I do sometimes make the choice to remove a toy from my child's hands and I empathize and explain and talk about it MORE after he's calm and can actually hear me. These things can always become learning experiences. IME my DS remembers everything and seems glad to talk about hard times after the fact, and even what we could do next time to make things better. I would have a much harder time removing a toy from another child's hands, but depending on the level of upset and the reaction from the other parent, I would do it if necessary to get out of there.

I don't know, maybe it's a lesson that if an adult asks you to return a toy and you refuse, that doesn't mean you get to keep it? Just thinking out loud. Maybe I'm a lot less consensual than others of you. There are some things that just have to be done, and I have never yet found myself saying "because I said so" and wouldn't need to in this situation either, but the fact THAT I said so and explained why IS a good enough reason, and if you can't handle doing it yourself I guess I will help get it done. I don't know. Good, thought-provoking stuff









I hope my last post didn't sound snarky, I didn't mean it that way but I can see how it might have sounded that way. So I'm sorry if it came off that way Also it probably was a little redundant but we kind of cross posted.

I think you're right about a child needing to know that if an adult asks for the toy to be returned that they don't get to keep the toy. That's where the persistence on the adult part comes in. Also I think it is totally normal that all families are going to have a different level of consensuality. That's why I suggested that the op sit down and talk to the other mom and figure out in advance how they would like to handle this sort of situation in the future, that way the could present a united front.

Coming back to the idea of consensuality, I think it is unfair to assume that the op's dd's need (or want) to have the toy back was any greater than the little boy's need (or want) to play with it. From the little girls perspective it was HER toy and she didn't want anyone else to use it. But from the little boys perspective he found it just lying there on the ground with nobody using it, so it was legitimately his to use. No one was really right and no one was really wrong it was just a problem to be solved. Obviously the little girl was very upset so the op wanted to solve the problem as quickly as possible but ripping the toy from the little boys hand would have probably resulted in him crying and the problem would have been no more "solved" than it was before. It just would have been a different problem.

I use to teach preschool and have dealt with similar issues and what I usually do is say to the upset child "That's your toy and I see you really want it back. I'm going to help you but let's try to calm down first." I don't insist the child calm down before helping them, just suggest it. I then start talking out the problem with both children until we come up with a solution that works. Problem solving can work for children this age I did it all the time when I worked in a two-year-old classroom. You have to be persistent and stick with the situation until both children are satisfied with the result. You also have to approach the situation from the point of view that there are infinite possible solutions and its just your job to find one that works for everyone.

I believe that the problem can be solved without physically forcing the item out of the child's hand, however I do think the OP probably would have needed to intervene to make sure that situation was handled properly because obviously leaving the toy with the little boy for the afternoon was not a workable solution to the problem.


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kennedyzoo* 
Although it seems that the other mother was a bit over the top to ask that her son " keep the toy for the afternoon", she doesn't have a voice here and may have been misunderstood. It is quite likely and reasonable that she just thought a bit of time would have her son lose interest and the toy easily returned.

I completely hear your concern and really respect it. I've done the best I can to represent what happened, because I really need to solve this--it's not just this incident, but a series of incidents where the extent of the mama's gentle discipline with her kiddo is at the expense of my kiddo. Obviously, I'm not handling things very effectively. And I live in a close-knit neighborhood with this family, and so I don't have the option of just not seeing them anymore. And I'm ok with that--I'd rather find a way to deal with this than to just avoid them.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *junipermuse* 
But from the little boys perspective he found it just lying there on the ground with nobody using it, so it was legitimately his to use. .


See, I just don't agree with that logic, and I didn't teach my dd that is true. I taught her to respect ownership....to ask if it is ok to play with another child's toy. When we have guests in our home, it is assumed that we are sharing our toys. But we (dd and I) do not make the same assumption about toys we find laying on the ground. We ask first. If there is no one to ask (for instance, when coming across sand toys in an abandoned sand box), we might use them but are prepared to return them if the owner appears and requests that we do.


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mackysmama* 
I agree with most everything you said except for the above quotes. I think the big issue with the OP is that the other mother wanted her son to take the toy home with him, not just let him have a turn for a few minutes. She was explaining to the trantruming child how important HER toy was to this boy and that he should be able to take it home with him. I think that is hurtful to a child and that is abuse of adult power. That makes no sense. That's a BIG difference from wanting to explore it, take a turn, taking a LONG turn... that's wanting to transfer ownership! At that point, IMO, the OP should have said it was time to go and we need our toy and leave it to the other mother to get it from the child - they already did patient and persistent.

I don't think the other mother handled the situation in the best way at all. I just suggested that she may have been trying to offer multiple alternatives, on the other hand maybe she's just loony I don't know because I haven't met her personally. I definitely see the hurt in seeing your toy to go home in the hands of another child against your will. So if my comments were interpreted in a way that suggested that, then I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I just don't think it's harmful for the crying girl to watch the child finish his turn while waiting to have the toy returned, or in waiting while the mother helps problem solve. As long as the little girl gets to go home with the toy when the playdate is over, I think physically removing the toy from the little boys hands can be avoided. I didn't get the idea from the original post that the toy needed to be returned so they could leave that instant. My impression was that the op felt the toy should be returned immediately because of how upset her daughter was. I think that's the difference. Of course the boy should return the toy if the owner of the toy is going home.


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
See, I just don't agree with that logic, and I didn't teach my dd that is true. I taught her to respect ownership....to ask if it is ok to play with another child's toy. When we have guests in our home, it is assumed that we are sharing our toys. But we (dd and I) do not make the same assumption about toys we find laying on the ground. We ask first. If there is no one to ask (for instance, when coming across sand toys in an abandoned sand box), we might use them but are prepared to return them if the owner appears and requests that we do.

I think I'm also coming from a specific set of experiences where we are often in a situation where it is hard to even tell who's toys are who's because the child who owns the item has long run off to play with other toys. My child would be unable to ask the owner for permission because the owner of said toy isn't around to ask. That seems to be the case in this situation as well. How could the little boy have asked the little girl if he could play with her toy when she wasn't there (she was in the bathroom) Since the toy was just left lying there I would have assumed that it was okay for my child to play with it. Of course if it had been made clear a head of time that I wasn't meant to be shared than I would have prevented my child from ever picking it up to be played with in the first place.

This happened to us just today at the park. My daughter was very interested in another childs doll stroller but everytime she came close to it, the child made it very clear he didn't want to share. So I just removed my chld from the situation and explained that he didn't feel like sharing. But if my child had just found it and then the other child came back and got upset, I would help her to finish up quickly, but i would not have removed it from her hands.


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
I completely hear your concern and really respect it. I've done the best I can to represent what happened, because I really need to solve this--it's not just this incident, but a series of incidents where the extent of the mama's gentle discipline with her kiddo is at the expense of my kiddo. Obviously, I'm not handling things very effectively. And I live in a close-knit neighborhood with this family, and so I don't have the option of just not seeing them anymore. And I'm ok with that--I'd rather find a way to deal with this than to just avoid them.

I think I would talk to your neighbor and say that you'd like to come up with some guidelines for handling these types of situations in the future since right now you guys aren't quite on the same page and you're afraid that might be stressful for the little ones. And then go from there. I'd explain especially how it bothers you when her child pushes yours off the trike or takes a toy out your child's hand. I would also mention how stressful it was for your daughter to hear the suggestion that she allow the boy to keep the toy for the afternoon when she was already so upset. Tell her how you would feel comfortable handling the situation and ask for her ideas and input. Come from the point of view that no way is right or wrong, that you just want consensus between the parents so the children aren't confused. I think that's your best option for dealing with something that is going to be on going.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

So many wonderful and different replies....

I think I would have been middle-of-the-road....

In terms of the initial conflict--if my ds were the child who lost the toy, I actually would have been more concerned with helping him manage his emotional outburst until a solution was reached. It sounds like your dd was *really* hysterical. Once it became clear that a swift solution wasn't going to happen with the child who had the toy, I would have focused on helping my own ds calm down. I probably would have held him and just spoken to him quietly, perhaps taking him to another room, because I honestly couldn't brainstorm in the midst of such hysterical strong emotion. I think at 3 I would have kept our focus on a simple message like 'You will be okay until we get the toy back. You are safe and you can calm down when you are ready". And just held ds for comfort until he calmed down.

Somewhere on a small level in that moment, if ds were flipping out and totally losing it emotionally, I would want to model for ds some perspective on what was happening. I wouldn't be inclined to grab the toy and hurry it back into his hands. That wouldn't be my instinct. My instinct would be "whoa, he is totally hysterical, and needs helping calming down".

The situation was that her toy was momentarily in the possession of another child. Feeling hysterical about that--my gut would be to help my child, first, not to be hysterical in a situation like that.

I also want to clarify the above is not because I think the other mother was in the right...I don't. I would feel very concerned if, in the midst of an emotional breakdown, the other mother asked my 3 year old to let her child keep the toy. It would strike me as detached from how my child was processing what happened. I would be hoping at least for a "He will give it back very soon, I know this toy is very special to you". Because on the flip side, if my ds took the toy, my priority would be exactly the same--helping him realize he could handle the situation even if it brought out strong objections and emotions.

It's easy to feel overwhelmed by a hysterical toddler. I'm guessing the other mother feels overwhelmed by her son, thus leading her to think he can only "handle" a situation as long as it doesn't upset him at all.

It's easy to get caught up in the original possession of this item--but because this was a playdate and the toy was left on the playing field, so to speak, *ideally* it's a learning opportunity for the kids in handling interpersonal conflicts in a safe environment. Ideally both parents are on the same page in how to resolve those conflicts, but in this case, you weren't.

I would have said to the other mother "it isn't acceptable to me that your son keep the toy after the playday is over. Why don't you help him find a way to give it back while I help my child calm down in another room. Perhaps you can find something to trade for instead. There are some small trinkets he could have in the box beside the backdoor. I'm sure we can find a way to help the kids resolve this problem". Perhaps this mother needs help with clear boundaries as well? It might just be that she needs to hear what your limits are so that she can help her son process them.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I am overwhelmed by how icky this situation was for you and for your dd. That mother handled it horribly!









If I am understanding correctly, this doll is a special attachment object -- a lovey, or sorts. And in that case, IMO, all normal rules of sharing are off. Attachment objects are a special case -- a 2 yo. child thinks of a lovey as an extension of themselves. It IS potentially damaging to feel that terror of loosing it. I don't even necessarily think it should be left at home or in the car, because you never know when she might need it or need to be near it.

The little boy probably didn't understand this, but the mother really should have.

I don't know what I would have done in your shoes. I wouldn't feel comfortable taking it from him forceably with the mother standing right there. But I think she should have. Whatever frustration he might feel as a result would be minor compared to what your dd was going through. I don't know -- I suspect I would have asked the mother to take it. Something like, "_That doll is particularly special. DD needs it back now, please. And then I think we'll call it a day."_

As far as the overall problem, I think you have two choices. You can practise being very direct and assertive in terms of asking her to take action with her child in each situation that problems arise. Or -- you can sit down over a cup of coffee and gently lay out the problem for her, and ask her for input on how to solve it. You know her best -- and can determine which approach would be better received.

I don't envy you the task!


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
So many wonderful and different replies....

I think I would have been middle-of-the-road....

In terms of the initial conflict--if my ds were the child who lost the toy, I actually would have been more concerned with helping him manage his emotional outburst until a solution was reached. It sounds like your dd was *really* hysterical. Once it became clear that a swift solution wasn't going to happen with the child who had the toy, I would have focused on helping my own ds calm down. I probably would have held him and just spoken to him quietly, perhaps taking him to another room, because I honestly couldn't brainstorm in the midst of such hysterical strong emotion. I think at 3 I would have kept our focus on a simple message like 'You will be okay until we get the toy back. You are safe and you can calm down when you are ready". And just held ds for comfort until he calmed down.

Somewhere on a small level in that moment, if ds were flipping out and totally losing it emotionally, I would want to model for ds some perspective on what was happening. I wouldn't be inclined to grab the toy and hurry it back into his hands. That wouldn't be my instinct. My instinct would be "whoa, he is totally hysterical, and needs helping calming down".

The situation was that her toy was momentarily in the possession of another child. Feeling hysterical about that--my gut would be to help my child, first, not to be hysterical in a situation like that.

I also want to clarify the above is not because I think the other mother was in the right...I don't. I would feel very concerned if, in the midst of an emotional breakdown, the other mother asked my 3 year old to let her child keep the toy. It would strike me as detached from how my child was processing what happened. I would be hoping at least for a "He will give it back very soon, I know this toy is very special to you". Because on the flip side, if my ds took the toy, my priority would be exactly the same--helping him realize he could handle the situation even if it brought out strong objections and emotions.

It's easy to feel overwhelmed by a hysterical toddler. I'm guessing the other mother feels overwhelmed by her son, thus leading her to think he can only "handle" a situation as long as it doesn't upset him at all.

It's easy to get caught up in the original possession of this item--but because this was a playdate and the toy was left on the playing field, so to speak, *ideally* it's a learning opportunity for the kids in handling interpersonal conflicts in a safe environment. Ideally both parents are on the same page in how to resolve those conflicts, but in this case, you weren't.

I would have said to the other mother "it isn't acceptable to me that your son keep the toy after the playday is over. Why don't you help him find a way to give it back while I help my child calm down in another room. Perhaps you can find something to trade for instead. There are some small trinkets he could have in the box beside the backdoor. I'm sure we can find a way to help the kids resolve this problem". Perhaps this mother needs help with clear boundaries as well? It might just be that she needs to hear what your limits are so that she can help her son process them.

I just want to say that I agree with everthing you've said here. This is a great perspective on the whole situation.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Posting again -- I don't think it is right to expect a 2 yo. to calm down and learn about surviving without their attachment object. I think it is too high an expectation. There are certain sorts of things that we just don't share -- we don't tolerate other people handling. I don't feel comfortable with other people picking up my purse and exploring it, for example. Even close friends.

And with a doll or a teddy that is important, its more than an object. From the child's perspective, its a personality -- her baby. To make it more personal, imagine yourself as the mother of an infant -- and imagine that someone else is holding your baby and refusing to hand it back when you asked for it. Its not rational to expect that you would calm down, or learn to accept that you can be okay without your baby for a minute. You would really just need your baby back -- now.

This little girl has plenty of time to learn that her doll is just an object. She doesn't need to learn that as a toddler.


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## LianneM (May 26, 2004)

I agree, that is excellent perspective *heartmama*







I'm so glad I read it too, b/c leaving the room with DS is something I would totally do if possible, and it's good to be reminded of that option!

It's funny how we all only have our own experiences (many from TODAY







) and all of our thoughts include those scenarios.

*junipermuse* that is a good point about the social pressure. I see two separate issues though - one that I do "cave" to and one that I tend not to. I don't really usually care what others think about my parenting. If they think I should do something else that's fine but whatever, I'm doing what I think is best, you know? So I react differently to tantrums than many parents, and that's fine, my goal is to keep my son safe and be respectful to him as he gets his feelings out. However, when it comes to a situation where the volume or something is actually affecting others, as in the restaurant today, a quicker action is warranted b/c I really don't think it is respectful to others to let my kid scream in the restaurant. That is a time I think the "social pressure" overrides what I'd really rather do in the moment. And truly, stepping outside to calm down is the right move to make anyway and I would love to have done that today. Too many things going on, I was responsible for both of the fighting kids at the same time (the other mom was trying to talk to someone else in the restaurant) and in those moments the quick decision and solution is what I did.

BTW I have found all of your posts to be respectful and non-snarky









GOOD conversation! I'm really filing away the things to talk to the other mom about b/c I really need to do this with my friend (and if you're reading, friend, it's only b/c I really want to continue to get the kids together and resolve these issues that seem to come up every time







)


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
I am overwhelmed by how icky this situation was for you and for your dd. That mother handled it horribly!









If I am understanding correctly, this doll is a special attachment object -- a lovey, or sorts. And in that case, IMO, all normal rules of sharing are off. Attachment objects are a special case -- a 2 yo. child thinks of a lovey as an extension of themselves. It IS potentially damaging to feel that terror of loosing it. I don't even necessarily think it should be left at home or in the car, because you never know when she might need it or need to be near it.

The little boy probably didn't understand this, but the mother really should have.

I don't know what I would have done in your shoes. I wouldn't feel comfortable taking it from him forceably with the mother standing right there. But I think she should have. Whatever frustration he might feel as a result would be minor compared to what your dd was going through. I don't know -- I suspect I would have asked the mother to take it. Something like, "_That doll is particularly special. DD needs it back now, please. And then I think we'll call it a day."_

As far as the overall problem, I think you have two choices. You can practise being very direct and assertive in terms of asking her to take action with her child in each situation that problems arise. Or -- you can sit down over a cup of coffee and gently lay out the problem for her, and ask her for input on how to solve it. You know her best -- and can determine which approach would be better received.

I don't envy you the task!

My understanding was that the object was something she was particularly attached to on that given day but was not her long time "attachment object" I personally feel there is a big difference. I don't think children see the "toy of the day" as an extension of themselves the way they do with their "lovey."
Even if it was her special attachment object she could have lasted long enough for the mom to continue working with the little boy to get the item back. Yanking it out of a child's hands is responding in "crisis-mode." It validates the child's idea that they can not live even for a minute without the object. You can validate the child's feelings (frustration) and validate their right to have their toy back, without succombing to the idea that the child can not live without the toy being immediately returned.

And even if the toy was not immediately returned the child would have survived unscathed. When I was small I left my doll (which I was very attached to) at a friends house 40 min away. At bed time I realized it was gone, but my parents were not able (or willing) to go back that night to retrieve it. I was pretty inconsolable, probably for several hours, but the next day we drove back to get my doll and after I had her back I was fine. It was a difficult night, but we got through it without any irreparable harm. Frankly if my parents had gone back to get it, they would have been reinforcing the idea that I couldn't live without my doll which was obviously untrue.

ETA: i don't think that a child SHOULD go through this sort of experience. Just that if they do they won't be harmed. I don't think that a child should be left to deal with their upset but I think we can give them love and empathy while working to solve problems. And some problems just don't have immediate solutions.


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## moodymaximus (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abimommy* 
In my experience, it works.

You don't want one hysterical child and one happy child, that isn't fair to sobbing child and it isn't a very fun playdate if one child is hysterical. If the toy is out of sight both children tend to move on.

I do that with ANY fights over a toy. I have ended up with half a toybox on top of my fridge but they learn eventually.

it only works (or might work) if the children are used to the concept of time out. my 3 year old, who has no idea what a time-out is as we don't practice it either for children or for their toys, would be very upset if his--the toy that he intended to play with--were removed.

not only the toy that the OP's child wasn't required to share was taken away, but now it is not available at all? it looks like punishment, and i frankly don't see what the OP's child did to be subjected to such a harsh treatment.

children "move on" when they know that their property can be removed from them and are used to this treatment, which doesn't seem fair at all.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

I haven't read all the replies.

For us, we recognize that there are certain special toys that a child doesn't want to share. It works both ways - when we're on their turf and it's the other child's toy, or if kids are at our house with our toys. Although 2.5 is young, most kids do seem to get and respect this concept.

If it's a generic toy they're fighting over, especially at that young age, and they resist the efforts to troubleshoot, then the toy goes up on the shelf and nobody gets it.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Does anyone else think dropping the toy to use the potty is significant? I wouldn't want very small potty-users to have to worry about who will pick up the toy they are playing with while they run to the potty, kwim? I would want them to go, and to trust that they can resume their "turn" when they get back. I think it is reasonable for another small child to understand that.....she dropped it to use the potty, but she is still using it. It is still her turn.

I know that if I am watching a tv show and leave to use the bathroom, I expect to be able to finish watching my show when I get back. If dh turns the channel while I am gone, that is fine. But I expect it to be turned back when I return!


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## LianneM (May 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
I explained to him that it's her favorite toy (she carries it around like it's a doll) and asked if he would give it back to her. He refused, so his mama tried to get him to give it to her but he still refused. *My DD is sitting there hysterical, begging me incoherently to get it back from him.* And the mama is explaining to the little boy "look at how upset she is...it sounds like she's trying to tell you that she really wants her toy back...wow, she's really upset."

*When that didn't work, the mama asked my DD if she would leave the toy with her son for the afternoon because "look at how much it means to him."* My DD is *so hysterical at this point that she's red in the face and stuffing her fist in her mouth*. And I'm telling the mama that it's not a good idea, that it seems like my DD is indicating that it's too important of a toy to her. *But the mama continued* imploring my DD to have empathy for her son and to look at how important it seems to him and would my DD be willing to leave it with him. *This went on and on and on.*

I needed to go back and read the OP just to remember the exact scenario that unfolded. I bolded the parts that really stuck out to me. CLEARLY the OP gave the boy and his mother time to get this resolved and her daughter was not doing well here. As much as I love the idea of waiting it out and calming my own child and all that, I'm all on fire again imagining this as my child and another parent being so... grr I don't even have words. I do think it can be damaging to be this upset and not have your mother stand up for you. I really do. We can agree to disagree.


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## LianneM (May 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
Does anyone else think dropping the toy to use the potty is significant?

Yes, I do completely agree. That was important in my original response as well.

I mean I don't think it's important in the sense of the boy realizing it on his own and just handing it right back, but if it were my son I would DEFINITELY be explaining to him that his friend is back from the potty and he needs to give the toy back to her.


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *junipermuse* 
My understanding was that the object was something she was particularly attached to on that given day but was not her long time "attachment object" I personally feel there is a big difference.

It's very special to her. I don't think she has a long-term "attachment object", unless you count me







. We've done our best to reduce materialism in her life (we have no tv, we don't go to malls, we never bought toys until recently because we had access to a toy lending library, we don't even own a car). But I guess she does care very deeply about a few material objects in her life, despite our efforts to avoid that.

I haven't said what it is, because it's just sounds so unbelievably ridiculous. But, maybe you all could use a laugh. We moved to the U.S. from Europe about 4 months ago, and her favorite trip while we lived there was to the south of France. We arrived in the evening on a Saturday and absolutely EVERYTHING was closed that night and all day Sunday. We had nowhere to eat, and so we ended up at McDonald's, hanging out with the teenagers in the middle of nowhere in Provence. My DD got a happy meal, and it came with this little surfboard that speaks French...with a surfer accent.

That's right. This was over a French-speaking surfboard.









A french-speaking surfboard that reminds her of travels in her real home, one that has been a running joke with our family, and one that seemed to terrify her when she saw this little boy with it (probably given the history between them, to some extent).


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## LianneM (May 26, 2004)

Ha! That is awesome! I knew it had to be something funny when you didn't say what it was, just that she "carries it like a doll." I love it


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## littlemizflava (Oct 8, 2006)

nope no way i am not going to let my dd get all upset just so that your ds is happy.







: i would of said to the mom that is your dd's toy and now it is time to give it back that is that at no if's and or buts. just get it back from ur ds or i will get it back myself.
no way to fix the past but try to prevent it happening again. at 3 your dd understands that he took and will take her toy from her just tell her to make sure it is safe we are going to leave it at home (if walking) or in the car (if driving)

ya i am all for gd but not a the price of one child getting hurt and stressed over the other one. clearly he was not upset it was your dd who was and he was holding the toy hostage. watching and seeing her reaction at that age he would understand what he is doing and have done.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

Posting again -- I don't think it is right to expect a 2 yo. to calm down and learn about surviving without their attachment object. I think it is too high an expectation. There are certain sorts of things that we just don't share -- we don't tolerate other people handling. I don't feel comfortable with other people picking up my purse and exploring it, for example. Even close friends.

And with a doll or a teddy that is important, its more than an object. From the child's perspective, its a personality -- her baby. To make it more personal, imagine yourself as the mother of an infant -- and imagine that someone else is holding your baby and refusing to hand it back when you asked for it. Its not rational to expect that you would calm down, or learn to accept that you can be okay without your baby for a minute. You would really just need your baby back -- now.

This little girl has plenty of time to learn that her doll is just an object. She doesn't need to learn that as a toddler.
I can appreciate this perspective, because you are capturing the kind of panick-y emotional state I am sure the OP's child felt. But I would put it another way--we expect children this young to manage to share the most powerful and potent attachment object of all--their parent--with new infant siblings, for example. We trust that the initial tears and tantrums over sharing parental attention will resolve with the child realizing they are still loved and cherished even if they don't have 100% immediate parental attention the way they did before the new baby arrived.

I just want to be clear I place the _highest_ priority on supporting attachments. I would never expect a child to tolerate a break in attachment--for example having a lovey given away, or having a parent leave them alone to cry in a room. But that is very different than what was happening here. In the same way sharing attention with a new baby is not abandoning attachments, sharing a lovey for a few minutes doesn't mean a full blown crisis.

I realize the distraction here is the other mother--who did suggest keeping the toy--and which was IMO totally inappropriate. But I think it is highly unlikely that was more than a fearful suggestion on her part, not really knowing how to handle her own child's emotions. I think the remedy for the upset dd would be seeing her own mother assert a simple boundary "No, he may not keep it. However we will give you some time alone to help him put down the toy, while dd calms down with me in another room etc....".


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
I think the remedy for the upset dd would be seeing her own mother assert a simple boundary "No, he may not keep it. However we will give you some time alone to help him put down the toy, while dd calms down with me in another room etc....".

and this is why I dont ask for advice on here









there is no way in heaven or he double hockey sticks that ds would EVER EEEEVER leave a room while someone else had his attachement object.


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
It's very special to her. I don't think she has a long-term "attachment object", unless you count me







. We've done our best to reduce materialism in her life (we have no tv, we don't go to malls, we never bought toys until recently because we had access to a toy lending library, we don't even own a car). But I guess she does care very deeply about a few material objects in her life, despite our efforts to avoid that.

I haven't said what it is, because it's just sounds so unbelievably ridiculous. But, maybe you all could use a laugh. We moved to the U.S. from Europe about 4 months ago, and her favorite trip while we lived there was to the south of France. We arrived in the evening on a Saturday and absolutely EVERYTHING was closed that night and all day Sunday. We had nowhere to eat, and so we ended up at McDonald's, hanging out with the teenagers in the middle of nowhere in Provence. My DD got a happy meal, and it came with this little surfboard that speaks French...with a surfer accent.

That's right. This was over a French-speaking surfboard.









A french-speaking surfboard that reminds her of travels in her real home, one that has been a running joke with our family, and one that seemed to terrify her when she saw this little boy with it (probably given the history between them, to some extent).

Wow that is too funny. We've eaten at our fair share of French Mcdonald's in our family so I can really appreciate that. Also I do see how that toy would be pretty irreplaceable so it would be important to get it back in a timely manner because it would be horrible if he accidentally damaged it. So if it were me in the situation I would have stayed as close as possible to the little boy and insisted he return it and stay on his case until he handed it back to me. While at the same time letting my daughter know that I realized how important it is to her and that I am working on getting it back.


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littlemizflava* 
nope no way i am not going to let my dd get all upset just so that your ds is happy.







: i would of said to the mom that is your dd's toy and now it is time to give it back that is that at no if's and or buts. just get it back from ur ds or i will get it back myself.
no way to fix the past but try to prevent it happening again. at 3 your dd understands that he took and will take her toy from her just tell her to make sure it is safe we are going to leave it at home (if walking) or in the car (if driving)

ya i am all for gd but not a the price of one child getting hurt and stressed over the other one. clearly he was not upset it was your dd who was and he was holding the toy hostage. watching and seeing her reaction at that age he would understand what he is doing and have done.

your solution very well might mean one child getting hurt and stressed at the expense of the other one also. It's just happening to opposite children in this case.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
I think the remedy for the upset dd would be seeing her own mother assert a simple boundary "No, he may not keep it. However we will give you some time alone to help him put down the toy, while dd calms down with me in another room etc....".

Yep. Or even just waiting and cuddling/nursing/soothing right there. But seriously: "No. I need that back now, please."

I think the OP is going to have to be more assertive in these situations. Bleh. Sorry!


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
Does anyone else think dropping the toy to use the potty is significant? I wouldn't want very small potty-users to have to worry about who will pick up the toy they are playing with while they run to the potty, kwim? I would want them to go, and to trust that they can resume their "turn" when they get back. I think it is reasonable for another small child to understand that.....she dropped it to use the potty, but she is still using it. It is still her turn.

I know that if I am watching a tv show and leave to use the bathroom, I expect to be able to finish watching my show when I get back. If dh turns the channel while I am gone, that is fine. But I expect it to be turned back when I return!


Quote:


Originally Posted by *LianneM* 
Yes, I do completely agree. That was important in my original response as well.

I mean I don't think it's important in the sense of the boy realizing it on his own and just handing it right back, but if it were my son I would DEFINITELY be explaining to him that his friend is back from the potty and he needs to give the toy back to her.

I do agree with both of you guys on this especially with regards to the little girls perspective. (I don't think the little boy has the logical thinking skills to realize not to pick up the toy just because the girl has gone to the bathroom) There are several ways to deal with that in the future though. 1. Take the toy to the bathroom with her next time. 2. Ask a grownup to keep it safe while she is in the bathroom. Frankly the adult should be the one to check with her and ask "are you done with this or do you want to come back to it when you're done in the bathroom?" She might not remember to tell you that she's not done, so its better to proactively check than to feel the need to pry it away from another child later. If she says she's done i would check and see if she's ready to share it, if not it should be put away.


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## ananas (Jun 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
Really? You would forcibly remove it from him?

Yup, absolutely. He had the opportunity to return it.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ananas* 
Yup, absolutely. He had the opportunity to return it.

I would too. As gently as possible of course, but the object would be removed after he refused to return it.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moodymaximus* 
it only works (or might work) if the children are used to the concept of time out. my 3 year old, who has no idea what a time-out is as we don't practice it either for children or for their toys, would be very upset if his--the toy that he intended to play with--were removed.

not only the toy that the OP's child wasn't required to share was taken away, but now it is not available at all? it looks like punishment, and i frankly don't see what the OP's child did to be subjected to such a harsh treatment.

children "move on" when they know that their property can be removed from them and are used to this treatment, which doesn't seem fair at all.

As I said, we don't do time-outs as a discipline tool.

IMO, neither is it fair to have one child happy and one child hysterical. On one hand the toy *belongs* to the OP's dd and it is hers. One the other hand, she wasn't playing with it right at the exact moment the little boy picked it up.

Both children have a *legitimate* reason to feel they should be able to play with the toy at that moment.

The feelings of both children are valid. To choose one child to get the toy over the other, no matter how one does that, a child feels unfairly treated.

No matter what one does it seems like "punishment" and "harsh treatment" to at least one child. IMO to let one child play with the toy over the other when they are BOTH hysterical is not fair.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abimommy* 
Both children have a legitimate reason to feel they should be able to play with the toy at that moment. The feelings of both children are valid. To chose one child to get the toy over another is "choosing" and no matter how one does that, a child feels unfairly treated.

Its Solomon's dilemma .

Well, I disagree. I think that the owner of the toy gets to say whether she shares it. I get that both children want to play with the toy, but ultimately if something is yours and I want it and you say no... well, you have the right to say no. That can be hard for children, and I advocate supporting the little boy in his feelings. After he returns the toy.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Well, I disagree. I think that the owner of the toy gets to say whether she shares it. I get that both children want to play with the toy, but ultimately if something is yours and I want it and you say no... well, you have the right to say no. That can be hard for children, and I advocate supporting the little boy in his feelings. After he returns the toy.

As was discussed earlier in the thread the OP does intend to work on not taking "no sharing" toys to playgroup, but, IMO this is why one doesn't take no sharing toys to playgroup.

As the toys are there they need to be shared. If they do not wish some toys to be shared then those toys should not be brought or set aside before guests arrive.

If someone wants to designate a toy as "no sharing" then they need to let mommy hold that so there isn't an issue. They can play with it later.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abimommy* 
As was discussed earlier in the thread the OP does intend to work on not taking "no sharing" toys to playgroup, but, IMO this is why one doesn't take no sharing toys to playgroup.

As as the toys are there they need to be shared. If they do not wish some toys to be shared then those toys should not be brought or set aside before guests arrive.

Well yes, if this is the prior agreement. And, personally I tell my child that any toys she brings must be shared. If there is drama, the toy goes up high.

But in the situation, where that is not the child's prior understanding, it's her toy and she has a right to share or not share. We were at playgroup tonight in fact and my DD grabbed her friend's special lovey. Should it have been laying around? Probably not. But when he freaked out I explained to my child that it is his special toy, gently, as I pried it out of her hands.









It's the thing to do, IMO.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Well yes, if this is the prior agreement. And, personally I tell my child that any toys she brings must be shared. If there is drama, the toy goes up high.

But in the situation, where that is not the child's prior understanding, it's her toy and she has a right to share or not share. We were at playgroup tonight in fact and my DD grabbed her friend's special lovey. Should it have been laying around? Probably not. But when he freaked out I explained to my child that it is his special toy, gently, as I pried it out of her hands.









It's the thing to do, IMO.

I agree, I would remove a special lovey from my child if drama occurred.







But then I would also hand it to the mom. The other mom should have handled it better, she placed the OP in a difficult situation by not stepping in.

I have an only child (well, she won't be for much longer), My dd did NOT NOT NOT like to share at three. She did NOT.







And honestly, my dd was often in the wrong.

It takes a lot of gentle discussion and explaining.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Elvirnon* 
I'd ask the other mother if she wanted to take the toy out of her son's hand, or if she wanted me to. And that would be our last playdate with them.

Exactly! I couldn't be around that kind of a mother. I understand (I think) her thought process on respecting her child, but she is teaching absolutely no respect for anyone else - and that is not ok.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aran* 
I think the expectation to share *everything* is unrealistic. I certainly own things I am not willing to share. ("Oh my wedding ring fell off in the sink and you decided - without asking me - to wear it for the rest of the afternoon just because you happened to find it?" or "Yeah, that's my cell phone on the shelf, I see you think it's cool, huh? Oh you are going to just take it and read through my messages, look at my pictures and contact lists without asking me?" See how ridiculous?)

The borrower is not the one who should decide sharing arrangements - that will teach dc to be resentful, stingy and miserly, ultimately, IMO.

This too.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nursemummy* 
Yes, the original little person dropped the toy, and the second one picked it up, so he _didn't do anything wrong_.

BUT, I truly think that as the situation escalated, it was the other mother's responsibility to remove the toy from her child and return it to the owner.

I would never, EVER allow another child to become that hysterical while MY child 'explored' a toy that she randomly picked up. Even if dd became upset at that point, I would redirect/explain/hell.even.leave. if we had to...

Yes!

I would have told the little boy that dd dropped her toy to go to the potty, and would like it back. I would give it a minute or two - with discussion if needed. But within a short while, either that other mother gives the toy back (if her son won't voluntarily give it up) or I'd take it back. No question.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kirsten* 
Exactly! I couldn't be around that kind of a mother. I understand (I think) her thought process on respecting her child, but she is teaching absolutely no respect for anyone else - and that is not ok.

Yeah, the mom not taking it from him doesn't bother me, but the request to let him keep it for the afternoon and imploring the hysterical girl to see how much it meant to HIM?! Dude. WTF. Not cool. At all.


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:

I just do not get this at all. The kid learns that if she lets go of her lovey at any time, it's fair game for another kid to keep until he's good and ready to give it up, even if it means that he gets to take it home with him? Not cool. I'd ask the other mother if she wanted to take the toy out of her son's hand, or if she wanted me to.
I agree with this.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
As far as the overall problem, I think you have two choices. You can practise being very direct and assertive in terms of asking her to take action with her child in each situation that problems arise. Or -- you can sit down over a cup of coffee and gently lay out the problem for her, and ask her for input on how to solve it. You know her best -- and can determine which approach would be better received.

I don't envy you the task!

Just to return to this issue, I wanted to tell you about a friend I have who is very comfortable disciplining my dcs. At first I was a little thrown by it, because she's a lot more mainstream than me. But she is always respectful, and I'm really glad she does it. We've had a few incidents where ds1 has hit her smaller dd, and she's stepped right up and straightened him out. Her dd and my dd have a ton of fun together, but when they have conflicts, she never asks me to help, she just helps them work it out. If that requires her telling my dd what to do, or what she shouldn't do, so be it.

Anyway, long story to say that I think it would be acceptable to discipline her child when he steps on your dd's toes (figuratively or literally). Or help your dd do it herself, by coaching her.

But if you take my advice and your friend posts on here about her obnoxious neighbor who keeps discipling her kid, I'm going to erase this post!


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abimommy* 
As was discussed earlier in the thread the OP does intend to work on not taking "no sharing" toys to playgroup, but, IMO this is why one doesn't take no sharing toys to playgroup.

Actually, I'm not sure this solves my problem. It's not like we went to their house with the toy--my DD walks around this community clutching the thing. This creates a dilemma for me. The idea that I have to make sure she's never around other kids with the toy because then it's fair game--that seems off to me.

I think the real issue is working on what an appropriate response should be when this stuff happens. I'll try to work something out with the mama. Thanks you guys.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

If this is something she *always* (or even just frequently) has, I don't see how it would be so hard to teach her friends that this is her special, special toy and it's not for sharing. My kid would get that.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
Actually, I'm not sure this solves my problem. It's not like we went to their house with the toy--my DD walks around this community clutching the thing. This creates a dilemma for me. The idea that I have to make sure she's never around other kids with the toy because then it's fair game--that seems off to me.

I think the real issue is working on what an appropriate response should be when this stuff happens. I'll try to work something out with the mama. Thanks you guys.









Oohh..I thought it was a lovey for that day sort of thing. No, that won't work.

How about you make or get some sort of bag with a draw string for the toy, a fancy velvety or silky one







Maybe call it a "sleeping bag" and say.."when we go to X's house let's have toy take a little nap in it's sleeping bag so no one uses it on accident"

then you can take toy, in "sleeping bag" and stick it in your bag, show her it is safe there for now.

It might work??


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Since there seem to be a lot of people who still think the op should have forcibly removed the toy from the little boy I'm wondering if we can think of some other solutions that would have resulted in getting the toy back to the little girl as quickly as possible without having to pry a toy out of a toddlers hand (which really is inappropriate because it sets a bad example for the children and really is a sort of punishment to the little boy who did nothing wrong to begin with). I do believe the other mother was not handling the situation appropriately, so I'm really trying to think of ways the OP could have dealt with the little boy that were gentle, and that would have allowed him to give the toy back rather than grabbing it away from him.

Some ideas are:
-offer a trade
-offer a choice, "would you like to hand it to me or to your mommy"
-ask "how many minutes until you are done?" this can be combined with a choice such as "would you like to look at it for 1 more minute or 2"
-make it into a game "can you fly the surfboad to me?", "can you hop like a bunny and bring me the surfboard"
-Play the surprise me game "I'm going to close my eyes and count to ten, lets see if you can surprise me by putting down the surf board before I get to 10"
-_waiting for the bus_ which is from a parenting book that I can't remember the title of at the moment, but the concept is that you tell the child what you expect them to do and then just wait patiently and expectantly for them to comply

Maybe other mamas have some other ideas. I just feel that grabbing a toy away from a child should be a very last resort preferably not used at all. I think that there are many things to try before going that route. I think its important to look at the issue from the little boys pov as well as the little girls. Also I wanted to point out that often it takes a very young child much longer than we expect to process a request. Especially when there is a lot of distraction like a child nearby in hysterics and his Mama talking on and on. Sometimes it seems as if a child is standing there looking defiant, when in reality they are still processing the situation. I mean really imagine you're walking along and you find this interesting thing, you become totally focused on this thing when out of nowhere another child starts screaming and crying at you. You haven't even had time to figure out what's happening when the child's mom starts telling you to give the toy back. You are trying to process the words in your little 2.5 year old brain, but before your brain can finish processing the words, your mom jumps in with more words. You then have to begin processing the words all over again. A speech and language therapist once explained to me that its really important to wait a good amount of time before repeating an instruction to a young child because if they are in the middle of processing what you've said and you interrupt them to repeat the instruction, they have to start processing all over again. Most people assume the child is being defiant, but really they just need more time to process.


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Ack, I realize this thread got too long and so my responses are getting lost. No, it's not a lovey. It's just one of what I would say are a few important things to her--she's also been known to clutch a stuffed monkey and a train (a lead-free one!)

And we weren't at their house nor were we headed to their house--she was walking around here with it (we're a close-knit condo community).


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I don't see anything wrong with taking a toy from a child after requesting it back, explaining why, and having the child not comply. I am not a jump-around-doing-tricks type of mama, and I think that is just fine.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
And we weren't at their house nor were we headed to their house--she was walking around here with it (we're a close-knit condo community).

Okay, so not even at a playgroup, just walking around near home and your child puts down her toy for a minute? Yeah, not cool, I get where you are coming from completely. I mean, sad for the other little boy, but it's not his and he didn't have a right to take it, so mama should have gotten it back asap.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
Ack, I realize this thread got too long and so my responses are getting lost. No, it's not a lovey. It's just one of what I would say are a few important things to her--she's also been known to clutch a stuffed monkey and a train (a lead-free one!)

And we weren't at their house nor were we headed to their house--she was walking around here with it (we're a close-knit condo community).

Do you think she would be comfortable putting her toy into your bag or coat pocket if she needs to walk away for a minute? Did she lay it on the ground outside when she ran to the bathroom?

IMO, this little boy doesn't seem to share very well, but it seems like he really needs socialization as well.







I think I would try and slowly ease the children into working together.


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## graceomalley (Dec 8, 2006)

I'm sorry you had to go through that.

I personally would have said "and you can see how important it is to my daughter" when the mother started with her "you can see how much he likes it" talk. I also would have given a very firm negative answer after the suggestion that the boy take it for the afternoon. "No, I'm sorry, he won't be taking it home - the toy is very special to my daughter and she would be extremely upset if we left without it."


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## graceomalley (Dec 8, 2006)

Ok sorry I just re-read - you did give a clear 'no' to the suggestion.

You should hav eimplored her son to have some empathy for your hysterical daughter!!!


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
Actually, I'm not sure this solves my problem. It's not like we went to their house with the toy--my DD walks around this community clutching the thing. This creates a dilemma for me. The idea that I have to make sure she's never around other kids with the toy because then it's fair game--that seems off to me.

I think the real issue is working on what an appropriate response should be when this stuff happens. I'll try to work something out with the mama. Thanks you guys.









Of course your dd should be allowed to walk around the complex carrying her toy. I think in this case you as the mama just need to be diligent in making sure that if the toy is put down then you are right there to pick it up and keep it safe from other children. The only other way a child might get a hold of it is to take it out of your dd's hand and that would not be okay with me since I firmly subscribe to the "we don't take things out of someone's hands" rule.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *junipermuse* 
Of course your dd should be allowed to walk around the complex carrying her toy. I think in this case you as the mama just need to be diligent in making sure that if the toy is put down then you are right there to pick it up and keep it safe from other children.

I don't work that hard, or that constantly. Exhausting parenting is not my scene.


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
Ack, I realize this thread got too long and so my responses are getting lost. No, it's not a lovey. It's just one of what I would say are a few important things to her--she's also been known to clutch a stuffed monkey and a train (a lead-free one!)

And we weren't at their house nor were we headed to their house--she was walking around here with it (we're a close-knit condo community).

But just so we're clear, the toy was left outside in a common area while she ran inside to use the bathroom? I just want to make sure I'm understanding the situation the way it actually happened.


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abimommy* 
Do you think she would be comfortable putting her toy into your bag or coat pocket or something during playtime?

But, see that doesn't really solve my bigger problem. 1) I'm not sure I can predict when this stuff is going to happen. 2) It's happened with other things (I talked about a game and a tricycle). 3) He's doing it mainly/only with my kiddo (which is probably heightening her panicked response). 4) Irregardless of what it was over, the issue I have is with the response of the mother--a GD solution at all costs for her son at the expense of the GD needs of another child.

I will give you another example, which I think really illustrates what I'm bristling over. My DD was on a tricycle. It was his tricycle. But the agreement in our community is that if the tricycles are on a terrace area, everyone is allowed to use them. So, she gets on it thinking it's ok. He sees her on his tricycle, he pushes her off and rides off. She's crying, and the mother is explaining to her that it's his tricyle, she can use it another time, that he seems to have a need to use it at that moment.

Honoring his need, which I completely understand. But, then my DD's need is not honored when it is reversed. So, I'm basically teaching my child that a need is more likely to be honored when it is forcefully asserted (back to BellinghamCrunchie's point up on page 1 or something--she dropped it, it's fair game, toddler law, you have to move fast). I believe by going along with all this, I'm teaching my child that if something is snatched/held physically from her, that need is more likely to be honored. The bigger (in size if not age), more assertive child is more likely to have their needs honored.

So, I'm all for GD, I really really am. I'm just struggling with this.


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *junipermuse* 
But just so we're clear, the toy was left outside in a common area while she ran inside to use the bathroom? I just want to make sure I'm understanding the situation the way it actually happened.

Yes, there's a potty next to the common play area where they were.


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *junipermuse* 
I think in this case you as the mama just need to be diligent in making sure that if the toy is put down then you are right there to pick it up and keep it safe from other children.

That exhausts me too, just thinking about it. I'm running after my newly potty trained kiddo who is running to the bathroom and who still can't do it all herself. There was no way I could have done it all here. I'm trying--when kids come over, DD and I always walk through what she's comfortable sharing and what she'd rather me put away.


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I don't see anything wrong with taking a toy from a child after requesting it back, explaining why, and having the child not comply. I am not a jump-around-doing-tricks type of mama, and I think that is just fine.

I'm sorry, but I disagree. It's wrong to take something from a child to show that taking other people's things is wrong, in the same way that it is wrong to bite a child to show them that biting is wrong, or two spank them to teach them that hitting is wrong. Children learn to treat others the way they are treated. If you treat them with respect, patience, and empathy they in turn will learn to treat people that way. Both children can be treated this way at the same time. The little girl can be treated respectfully without requiring you to pry the toy out of the other child's hands.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I don't work that hard, or that constantly. Exhausting parenting is not my scene.

Frankly I'm pretty lax when dealing with my own kid, but when I'm disciplining someone else's child, which I often find myself doing when we're at the park, I go the extra mile to be super gentle and give the other child child every benefit of the doubt. I owe it to that child to do that because they are not my own. It is extra work, but I don't have to do it all the time. I can go home and parent my child anyway I want.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

and people wonder why mainstream veiws GD parents as being to permissive.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
But, see that doesn't really solve my bigger problem. 1) I'm not sure I can predict when this stuff is going to happen. 2) It's happened with other things (I talked about a game and a tricycle). 3) He's doing it mainly/only with my kiddo (which is probably heightening her panicked response). 4) Irregardless of what it was over, the issue I have is with the response of the mother--a GD solution at all costs for her son at the expense of the GD needs of another child.

I will give you another example, which I think really illustrates what I'm bristling over. My DD was on a tricycle. It was his tricycle. But the agreement in our community is that if the tricycles are on a terrace area, everyone is allowed to use them. So, she gets on it thinking it's ok. He sees her on his tricycle, he pushes her off and rides off. She's crying, and the mother is explaining to her that it's his tricyle, she can use it another time, that he seems to have a need to use it at that moment.

Honoring his need, which I completely understand. But, then my DD's need is not honored when it is reversed. So, I'm basically teaching my child that a need is more likely to be honored when it is forcefully asserted (back to BellinghamCrunchie's point up on page 1 or something--she dropped it, it's fair game, toddler law, you have to move fast). I believe by going along with all this, I'm teaching my child that if something is snatched/held physically from her, that need is more likely to be honored. The bigger (in size if not age), more assertive child is more likely to have their needs honored.

So, I'm all for GD, I really really am. I'm just struggling with this.

I see what you are saying now that you have explained the tricycle issue a little more.

Honestly, I would discuss it with her. Pushing your dd down is not ok, her not even doing anything about it is REALLY not ok.

It seems like she is not allowing for the needs of other children, only her ds. That isn't fair at all.

IMO, the only thing you can do at this point is discuss it with the mom. She might be GD-ing her ds, but her ds is not treating other children with gentleness nor is she doing anything about his behavior. That isn't GD to me, that is permissiveness.

Her lack of action towards her ds' behavior is having a negative impact on your dd, and I don't think I would permit them to play together if she didn't change tactics.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
4) Irregardless of what it was over, the issue I have is with the response of the mother--a GD solution at all costs for her son at the expense of the GD needs of another child.

I truly don't understand why you keep calling that other mother's behavior "gentle discipline"...she allows her child to push and hit other children...that's not gentle discipline.







: That is a complete lack of discipline, a lack of teaching her child how to be gentle.

Quote:

Honoring his need, which I completely understand.
No, riding a tricycle is not a need. That seems ludicrous to me. He wanted the tricycle that he had left in a common area where the rule is that the toys are to be shared, he PUSHED another child off of the tricycle to use it... in no way, shape or form was that a need. The mother NEEDED to have stepped in and found something else that is fun for the child to do. With my two children, if one wants to play with something the other is playing with, I ask how much longer the first would like to play with the toy. Sometimes the child says, "I'm almost done", other times, I need to mediate and figure out a fair time, then use a timer...like, "okay, you can have it for five more minutes, then your brother can have it for 15 minutes, does that sound good?" etc.

Quote:

But, then my DD's need is not honored when it is reversed. So, I'm basically teaching my child that a need is more likely to be honored when it is forcefully asserted (back to BellinghamCrunchie's point up on page 1 or something--she dropped it, it's fair game, toddler law, you have to move fast). I believe by going along with all this, I'm teaching my child that if something is snatched/held physically from her, that need is more likely to be honored. The bigger (in size if not age), more assertive child is more likely to have their needs honored.

So, I'm all for GD, I really really am. I'm just struggling with this.
In my opinion, your friend is not practicing gentle discipline at all.

This link seems to have some great suggestions, perhaps you can print them off and give them to your friend.

http://www.parentingweb.com/discipline/pos_disc.htm


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

IMO, the only thing you can do at this point is discuss it with the mom. She might be GD-ing her ds, but her ds is not treating other children with gentleness nor is she doing anything about his behavior. That isn't GD to me, that is permissiveness.
I agree. If you value the relationship, find a way to talk to her honestly about this. In fact, you have said this is a very close knit community you share. I don't think avoiding her would even work, would it? It sounds like clear communication is the only option. Tell her what you have said here--that you are feeling frustrated by a double standard of expectations. I would tell her you admire her commitment to gentleness, because that *is* admirable. But that your dd is getting hurt by the lack of clear boundaries regarding her son's behavior. His behavior is completely age appropriate, but let her know it can be hurtful anyway, and that you would like her support going forward applying the same standards to both children.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
I agree. If you value the relationship, find a way to talk to her honestly about this. In fact, you have said this is a very close knit community you share. I don't think avoiding her would even work, would it? It sounds like clear communication is the only option. Tell her what you have said here--that you are feeling frustrated by a double standard of expectations. I would tell her you admire her commitment to gentleness, because that *is* admirable. But that your dd is getting hurt by the lack of clear boundaries regarding her son's behavior. His behavior is completely age appropriate, but let her know it can be hurtful anyway, and that you would like her support going forward applying the same standards to both children.











Yup, I agree.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

I truly don't understand why you keep calling that other mother's behavior "gentle discipline"..
I agree with this too....all gentle and no discipline isn't Gentle Discipline....

Do you have parenting books she could read? Is this her only child? She might honestly be confused as to what GD involves....


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
I would tell her you admire her commitment to gentleness, because that *is* admirable. But that your dd is getting hurt by the lack of clear boundaries regarding her son's behavior. His behavior is completely age appropriate, but let her know it can be hurtful anyway, and that you would like her support going forward applying the same standards to both children.

Thank you for this. I'm going to go memorize it now.


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
But, see that doesn't really solve my bigger problem. 1) I'm not sure I can predict when this stuff is going to happen. 2) It's happened with other things (I talked about a game and a tricycle). 3) He's doing it mainly/only with my kiddo (which is probably heightening her panicked response). 4) Irregardless of what it was over, the issue I have is with the response of the mother--a GD solution at all costs for her son at the expense of the GD needs of another child.

I will give you another example, which I think really illustrates what I'm bristling over. My DD was on a tricycle. It was his tricycle. But the agreement in our community is that if the tricycles are on a terrace area, everyone is allowed to use them. So, she gets on it thinking it's ok. He sees her on his tricycle, he pushes her off and rides off. She's crying, and the mother is explaining to her that it's his tricyle, she can use it another time, that he seems to have a need to use it at that moment.

Honoring his need, which I completely understand. But, then my DD's need is not honored when it is reversed. So, I'm basically teaching my child that a need is more likely to be honored when it is forcefully asserted (back to BellinghamCrunchie's point up on page 1 or something--she dropped it, it's fair game, toddler law, you have to move fast). I believe by going along with all this, I'm teaching my child that if something is snatched/held physically from her, that need is more likely to be honored. The bigger (in size if not age), more assertive child is more likely to have their needs honored.

So, I'm all for GD, I really really am. I'm just struggling with this.

Well this issue with the trike would really bother me much more than the original incident you described. Frankly its really almost the opposite of the situation in the original post. These are the rules I operate from when dealing with toddlers. I often make the assumption that this is what the other parents are operating off also.

-No hurting others (this would include pushing children off bikes, as well as hitting, biting, pinching,kicking, etc.)
-No grabbing (which means not taking something out of someones hand or away from someone if they are using it)
-If something is in a common area and is not being used it is fair game to be used by whomever is around
-If someone is using something you would like to use you let them know you would like a turn. It's okay to ask "how many minutes until you're done?" The child should be allowed to use the toy as long as they like until they feel they are done.

When children don't follow these rules it is obviously the job of the adult to solve the problems that arise.

In the tricycle incident I would have told the other mother that my daughter was not through with her turn and that I am not okay with her son knocking my daughter down to get a turn. I would explain that my understanding was that if the trikes are on the terrace they are for everyone to use, and if she doesn't want her son to share it, then it should be put away or kept inside their home. I totally agree that allowing him to keep using it is teaching him to misuse his strength and force to get what he wants and that is not good.

On the other hand I think with regards to the incident with the toy the situation was almost completely reversed. He very innocently began playing with a toy that was left in the common playarea and was expected to give it back because your daughter threw a fit. In some ways you could say by insisting he return the toy immediately you are teaching your daughter to throw a fit to get what she wants. In both incidents the child was playing with a toy that belonged to the other child and in each case the other child felt they had a claim to the item because it was left unused in a common area. It's not really an issue of right or wrong in either case. It's just an issue to be worked through.


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
That exhausts me too, just thinking about it. I'm running after my newly potty trained kiddo who is running to the bathroom and who still can't do it all herself. There was no way I could have done it all here. I'm trying--when kids come over, DD and I always walk through what she's comfortable sharing and what she'd rather me put away.

If your daughter is leaving her very special toy on the floor in a common area someone is going to have to do the work of making sure other children don't play with it. If you don't do it than that just means the other mother's will have to do it. Why should they have to stand over their child repeatedly reminding them not to touch your daughters toy that is lying on the ground when all you have to do is pick it up and take it with you? It's your daughter's toy, and she's the one leaving it around and she's the one that doesn't want to share. If she were older I would say its her responsibility to keep track of it, but since she's so young that responsibility really falls on you.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kennedyzoo* 
I'm also a bit surprised that so many posters felt that the 2.5 boy and his mother were unreasonable in this situation when the actions of the little girl to both abandon a toy and then have a tantrum were really her choices.

Her choices? She's not even 3 years old.

The other mother was plainly being disrespectful to the OP and her child. From what I have read here, it is clear the other mother did not want to have to deal with her own child's hard feelings if he had to give up the toy, so she tried to talk the little girl into giving up the toy for the afternoon. It really feels like she was putting the burden on the other mother and child instead of taking the responsibility. The burden should not be on the little girl who lost her toy to be the one to have to subvert her desires.

What I would have done as the mother of the little boy, and as the mother of a child who can get attached to other children's toys and want to take them home, is after I explain why we have to give it back, and ask her to say good-bye to the toy or in other ways come to terms with having to willingly give up the toy. If she couldn't and she was making it clear that she wouldn't, at that point my job would be to firmly explain that if she didn't willingly give up the toy, it wouldn't mean that she got to keep it. I'd take the toy and return it to the little girl, then I would deal with my own child's sense of loss or painful feelings. Because even if I wish that my child wasn't getting hurt, my job as her mother would be to help her through that.


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *junipermuse* 
On the other hand I think with regards to the incident with the toy the situation was almost completely reversed. He very innocently began playing with a toy that was left in the common playarea and was expected to give it back because your daughter threw a fit. In some ways you could say by insisting he return the toy immediately you are teaching your daughter to throw a fit to get what she wants. In both incidents the child was playing with a toy that belonged to the other child and in each case the other child felt they had a claim to the item because it was left unused in a common area. It's not really an issue of right or wrong in either case. It's just an issue to be worked through.


But watching him physically hold it from her and all of us doing the song and dance to get it from him--the equivalent of that with the tricycle is if she had the physical strength to resist him trying to get it back. She doesn't have that physical strength nor the mental resolve to do that. By going through this song and dance with him, I feel like I'm teaching her that she'd have better luck with her needs if she withholds things from kiddos--he certainly has better luck that way.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *junipermuse* 
It's your daughter's toy, and she's the one leaving it around and she's the one that doesn't want to share. If she were older I would say its her responsibility to keep track of it, but since she's so young that responsibility really falls on you.

oh great, now lets bash this mom over a 2 yr old dropping her lovey.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
My DD was on a tricycle. It was his tricycle. But the agreement in our community is that if the tricycles are on a terrace area, everyone is allowed to use them. So, she gets on it thinking it's ok. He sees her on his tricycle, he pushes her off and rides off. She's crying, and the mother is explaining to her that it's his tricyle, she can use it another time, that he seems to have a need to use it at that moment.

So, I'm all for GD, I really really am. I'm just struggling with this.

It doesn't sound like she is practicing GD, it sounds like she is practicing avoidance. Her son physically pushes your daughter off his tricycle, I don't really see it as responsible parenting or GD to let that situation go. Sure, she can say he has a need to use it at that moment because that might be an accurate assessment. But if she doesn't then express what the limit is in what is acceptable behavior in getting his tricycle back, that's not GD, it's not respectful to him. Even if she's trying to be non-coercive, she's essentially telling him that coercion only works in one direction, so it's not even consensual parenting.


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wonderwahine* 
oh great, now lets bash this mom over a 2 yr old dropping her lovey.

I'm not bashing her. And she has repeatedly said it's not her dd's lovey just a very special toy. And the little girl is 3 not 2!








okay sorry my tantrum is over. Really I was just trying to point out that parenting is hard work for every mom and all we can really do is take responsibility for our own actions and to some extent the actions of our children. I think it's pretty clear that in your home if you don't want your child play with something you keep it out of their reach. The same thing goes for other people's kids outside the home. If you don't want this kid playing with your stuff don't leave it where he can get.


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *junipermuse* 
And the little girl is 3 not 2!

She's 33 months, if that matters at all. I've lost track of whether it does.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *junipermuse* 
I'm not bashing her. And she has repeatedly said it's not her dd's lovey just a very special toy. And the little girl is 3 not 2!








okay sorry my tantrum is over. Really I was just trying to point out that parenting is hard work for every mom and all we can really do is take responsibility for our own actions and to some extent the actions of our children. I think it's pretty clear that in your home if you don't want your child play with something you keep it out of their reach. The same thing goes for other people's kids outside the home. If you don't want this kid playing with your stuff don't leave it where he can get.

Well, I think part of the problem is the other mom explained to the OP's dd quite clearly that someone can leave their toy, but if it is theirs and they need it then they can have it back.

Quote:

I will give you another example, which I think really illustrates what I'm bristling over. My DD was on a tricycle. It was his tricycle. But the agreement in our community is that if the tricycles are on a terrace area, everyone is allowed to use them. So, she gets on it thinking it's ok. He sees her on his tricycle, he pushes her off and rides off. She's crying, and the mother is explaining to her that it's his tricyle, she can use it another time, that he seems to have a need to use it at that moment.
Adults need to be consistent.


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
But watching him physically hold it from her and all of us doing the song and dance to get it from him--the equivalent of that with the tricycle is if she had the physical strength to resist him trying to get it back. She doesn't have that physical strength nor the mental resolve to do that. By going through this song and dance with him, I feel like I'm teaching her that she'd have better luck with her needs if she withholds things from kiddos--he certainly has better luck that way.

It sounds to me like this is a kid with a very different personality from your kid and you feel like he is dominating your child. I think that would really concern me too. Frankly though I don't think its damaging to her to see you work it out gently with the little boy even when it takes a long time. I think from that she could learn many good things. For example _My mom works hard to help me out when I'm upset_ or _Even if it takes a long time we can always find a good solution_ or _My mom treats everyone with kindness and respect_ These are just some of the positive messages I see in working with the little boy to find a solution (in your words, do a song and dance). I think teaching children to problem solve, which is such an important skill in dealing with others, requires being willing to spend large amounts of time on a problem, and being open to many different solutions not just the quick and easy ones. But I believe the benefits are worth it. And I wouldn't worry as much about what she's learning from him, much more important is what she's learning from you.


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abimommy* 
Well, I think part of the problem is the other mom explained to the OP's dd quite clearly that someone can leave their toy, but if it is theirs and they need it then they can have it back.

Adults need to be consistent.

I agree completely, I have said in many of my posts that the two mommy's should come up with guidelines together, so they can be consistent.


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
She's 33 months, if that matters at all. I've lost track of whether it does.









it doesn't really matter much







basically you've just got two toddlers who are just trying to figure out how to interact with each other and one mom who isn't really interested in helping anyone but her own child (i'm talking about the other mom, not you rzberrymom, just in case that wasn't clear)


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *junipermuse* 
On the other hand I think with regards to the incident with the toy the situation was almost completely reversed. He very innocently began playing with a toy that was left in the common playarea and was expected to give it back because your daughter threw a fit. In some ways you could say by insisting he return the toy immediately you are teaching your daughter to throw a fit to get what she wants.

Having had a child who would be very emotionally upset when other people played with her toys, my reaction was to try and calm her down and defuse the emotions, assure her she would get the toy back, make sure that we had the toy back when we left, and then try and prevent future situations like that from arising. But I think part of this is that my own personal policy is that while it is understandable that children will want to play with other kids' toys, and while I've even explained to my child ahead of time that other children will want her to share her toy, I don't see this as some sort of finders keepers free-for-all. A child brings a toy to the park, the child lays down or drops the toy, it doesn't mean my child gets to have a significant amount of playing time with it. It's not her toy, and if the other child doesn't want to share, I don't feel that we can force that.

I guess if the ground rules were laid out where we all agreed that anyone could have a turn, then I'd have a different feeling, or else I'd have to be more careful if I felt like my child couldn't handle that.

Quote:

Well, I think part of the problem is the other mom explained to the OP's dd quite clearly that someone can leave their toy, but if it is theirs and they need it then they can have it back.
Yes, that does seem to be the case.


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## gwynthfair (Mar 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *junipermuse* 
*Also I wanted to point out that often it takes a very young child much longer than we expect to process a request. Especially when there is a lot of distraction like a child nearby in hysterics and his Mama talking on and on. Sometimes it seems as if a child is standing there looking defiant, when in reality they are still processing the situation. I mean really imagine you're walking along and you find this interesting thing, you become totally focused on this thing when out of nowhere another child starts screaming and crying at you. You haven't even had time to figure out what's happening when the child's mom starts telling you to give the toy back. You are trying to process the words in your little 2.5 year old brain, but before your brain can finish processing the words, your mom jumps in with more words. You then have to begin processing the words all over again. A speech and language therapist once explained to me that its really important to wait a good amount of time before repeating an instruction to a young child because if they are in the middle of processing what you've said and you interrupt them to repeat the instruction, they have to start processing all over again. Most people assume the child is being defiant, but really they just need more time to process.*

I think this is a very good point and wanted to emphasize this again. I've just been reading along and enjoying the conversation. Clearly there is a "gradient" of understanding for children, however, he refused multiple times to give up the toy, so he probably had understood the message. (I'm glad you made the point though, because I think it's a good thing to consider.)

Clearly the mother is not effectively disciplining her child, and I hope for everyone's sake that you guys can discuss it and work it out. She may feel very overwhelmed with the situation and not know what to do as well! I would think that any reasonable person would accept their own inconsistencies. I would just gently tell her my concerns about the message her inconsistencies are sending.

It's interesting how my opinions on the subject have changed after reading all these posts! I learn so much here sometimes!

I think taking by force should be used as a last resort...but a very serious face with an assertive statement like, "she's very upset. give the toy right away," with hand out might have been in order. And honestly, I don't think it would have been inappropriate for the OP to say something like that to the little boy - in fact, it might have been more effective coming from you. But I guess that all depends on the dynamic you have.

Good luck getting things straightened out.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *junipermuse* 
I would have stayed as close as possible to the little boy and insisted he return it and stay on his case until he handed it back to me. While at the same time letting my daughter know that I realized how important it is to her and that I am working on getting it back.

See, now this seems to me worse than gently prying the toy out of his hands while explaining the situation to him and empathizing with him. It seems like badgering and guilting him into it, and not modeling assertiveness to your own child..."OK, how about 3 minutes?" Then what happens in 3 minutes if he doesn't want to give it up? Another 3 minutes? This is where negotiations and finding mutual solutions loses it for me. IMHO, dragging out a situation to be sure everyone is satisfied is sometimes worse than just getting it over with and moving forward and processing some disappointment. There's kindness, and then there's enabling...and I know it sounds silly to use that word with toddlers, but it's part of teaching them socially acceptable behaviors. I am NOT advocating hostily ripping the toy from his screaming hands . I am advocating giving him just a couple minutes with an explanation (and recognition to him that it was a mistake to leave it out instead of taking with you to the potty - that will help him process), and then if he won't produce the toy to either my kid, his mom, or me, telling the mom 'we need to get the toy from him now, do you want to do it or should I?' and then making it happen.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
But when he freaked out I explained to my child that it is his special toy, gently, as I pried it out of her hands.







.

Exactly.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viola* 
From what I have read here, it is clear the other mother did not want to have to deal with her own child's hard feelings

<snip>
I'd take the toy and return it to the little girl, then I would deal with my own child's sense of loss or painful feelings. Because even if I wish that my child wasn't getting hurt, my job as her mother would be to help her through that.

And exactly this, too.

OP, I think heartmama was spot on when she said you're going to have to have a conversation (albeit an uncomfortable one) with this mom, to try to get on a similar page regarding how to resolve conflicts between your children since it's a recurring issue. I don't envy you the task. Good luck talking to her!


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

Have you thought about what you would do if, say, the other mom wasn't around and you were babysitting for the boy? Your dd takes one of the boy's toys and the boy is upset. What would you tell your dd? That's probably what I would tell the boy and the mom.

"Oh, thanks! You found dd's toy. She dropped it when she went to the potty," holding out your hand to receive it back.

"Yeah, it is pretty cool, isn't it. It's really special to dd. Would you like to hold it a few more minutes? Tell you what, I'll sing the ABC song and when I'm done, let's trade and I'll give you this dump truck. A B C D... All right, I'm done. Time to trade." (I used the ABC song as a timing method a lot when my kids were little. They couldn't understand how long a minute was, but they understood when the ABC song would end. Was great for giving toys back, stopping nursing, getting ready to leave the park, etc.)

"Awwww...I'm sorry you don't want to, but it belongs to dd and see how upset she is? I can help you find another toy if you'd like, but we need to give this toy back to dd now."

Sympathetic, but firm.

As for the tricycle incident. I would have corrected the other child on that, too:

[He pushes her off. She's crying.] "Hey, [boy's name], it's okay if you want to ride the trike, but it's not okay to push dd off. The way to let her know nicely is to say, 'dd, that's my trike and I'd like to ride it now'. Do you understand? Now, let's stop and get off and check in with her and make sure she's okay and then you can have your ride."

I think it would be fine for you to talk to the other mom, but personally I think it would be fine to step in and take care of both kids if she's not doing it adequately. If you're gentle and yet take control of the situation she probably won't be upset and will pick up some ideas from you. I know that even though we rarely leave our kids with anyone there are plenty of times that other parents have the opportunity to say something to my kids about their behavior whether it's at a friend's house (let's not play in mom and dad's bedroom) or on the playground, (throwing sand is not a good idea, 'cause it might get in someone's eyes), etc, etc.

I think just extend that "it takes a village" concept and don't wait for mom to step in since she's having a hard time with it. I mean, you could give her one chance, but if you see she's having a hard time step in and support her by showing the kids what they need to know.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

"Yeah that" to beanma's whole post.

I had a mom who was clearly uncomfortable with me saying something to her kids, but she would be chit-chatting until she heard the screaming--and only *then* would there be any, "Oh somethings going on w/ my child AGAIN," response. Which is OK, I suppose, but if you're not gonna be proactive when your kids got his fist in the air, then someone else is--and I don't really think you get too much room for pissiness if you're leaving it up to other's on a regular basis.

I dont' see anything wrong with, "Hey! Don't push her." "Please give that back, she's not done." "Excuse me, please stop." etc.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
IMHO, dragging out a situation to be sure everyone is satisfied is sometimes worse than just getting it over with and moving forward and processing some disappointment.

Yes, this. More and more, I am believing this to be true. IMHO, not taking the toy from the child's hand (because of a "no taking things from other's hands" philosophy) is missing the forest for the trees. It draws out the pain for both parties unnecessarily. It allows more distress, and it is *not* always the most respectful action imo.

It isn't the same as not hitting a child, or not biting a child. Hitting and biting are assaults in the adult world. Taking an object back that is rightfully yours, after repeated requests to have it handed back, is not an assault. It isn't even inappropriate.

One more thing, about being vigilant about the object left on the ground:

Kids are way smarter than we sometimes give them credit for. If she carries that toy around all the time....or if she is even just carrying it around that day....the other child knows it is her toy. And he should (imo) "know" (although need guidance and reminders) that he must return it if she requests he do so. The biggest problem I am having with this scenario (and projecting myself into it at some point in the future) is the attitude that he has a "right" to play with a found toy, and can return it when willing. That is not at all true imo, whether it were a lovey or not. And I believe that is a problematic lesson to teach a child.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *junipermuse* 
I'm sorry, but I disagree. It's wrong to take something from a child to show that taking other people's things is wrong, in the same way that it is wrong to bite a child to show them that biting is wrong, or two spank them to teach them that hitting is wrong. Children learn to treat others the way they are treated. If you treat them with respect, patience, and empathy they in turn will learn to treat people that way. Both children can be treated this way at the same time. The little girl can be treated respectfully without requiring you to pry the toy out of the other child's hands.


I completely disagree. Taking something and giving it back to its owner is reinforcing that taking something that doesn't belong to you is bad.

It also has nothing to do with being bigger or an abuse of power. If someone I know took my book or my ipod or something and wouldn't give it back, of course I would take it back.

The little girl was not being treated respectfully. the little girl was in hysterics.

I cannot understand why people on this thread are so concerned with the feelings of this little boy and not the little girl. Giving the girl back her toy will not damage this boy.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *junipermuse* 
I'm sorry, but I disagree. It's wrong to take something from a child to show that taking other people's things is wrong,

No, it is not. It's not the same thing. This is not the child's toy for one thing, so you are not removing his toy to show that taking another toy is wrong. Also, you are the MOTHER. In my world, that means something. This is not a roommate situation here.

Quote:

in the same way that it is wrong to bite a child to show them that biting is wrong, or two spank them to teach them that hitting is wrong.
This is hardly comparable to physically assaulting a child.

Quote:

Children learn to treat others the way they are treated. If you treat them with respect, patience, and empathy they in turn will learn to treat people that way.
Not if you teach them that the world revolves around them, and that they will be treated with extreme gentleness as though they are made of glass, but they are not required to treat others the same way. That is how you get a narcissistic and selfish child. I see 'modelling' here used to the exclusion of directly teaching a child that another person's feelings matter in the situation, right now, and it has to be corrected.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
I agree with this too....all gentle and no discipline isn't Gentle Discipline....









: So nice to read those words here...


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
I completely disagree. Taking something and giving it back to its owner is reinforcing that taking something that doesn't belong to you is bad.

It also has nothing to do with being bigger or an abuse of power. If someone I know took my book or my ipod or something and wouldn't give it back, of course I would take it back.









:


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 

Not if you teach them that the world revolves around them, and that they will be treated with extreme gentleness as though they are made of glass, but they are not required to treat others the same way. That is how you get a narcissistic and selfish child. I see 'modelling' here used to the exclusion of directly teaching a child that another person's feelings matter in the situation, right now, and it has to be corrected.

Yep and what is it teaching the girl? That people can take her stuff and walk all over her?


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## dawningmama (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
Yep and what is it teaching the girl? That people can take her stuff and walk all over her?

Yep, especially if they are bigger. And the boy is learning that he can take what he wants and refuse to give it back, even if it does not actually belong to him. That's a pretty dangerous lesson.


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## greenfish (Nov 16, 2007)

I've been reading with great fascination...and I think I've figured out my puzzlement.

Humans have the capacity for aggression as well as bonding and empathy. Little people experiment with all sorts of ways to get their needs and desires met--including aggression.

This leads to problem #1: It seems that this little boy is learning that aggression is a great way to get what he wants. If he gets to play on the trike after pushing your daughter off...!!! At my house, I would give him a chance to give the (shared) trike back (while holding it still for him) and if he couldn't do that, I would gently pick him up and sit down with him to help him wait for his turn. I would encourage the other child to finish her turn and then let him have his turn. If she was unable to share then the tables would be turned and we'd have to repeat in the opposite direction.

But aggression isn't only a negative thing. Yes, we can use aggression to be selfish, mean, hateful...but we can also use aggression to stand up for our kids, insist on justice, demand our public officials do what is in the best interests of the constituents...these all use our inherent aggression, but in service of love and justice. This leads to problem #2 (imho): in this situation neither child is learning that aggression can be used for justice.

This is why I don't have a problem with, gently, as a last resort, taking a toy away from a child. The children learn that there is justice in this world and that appropriate use of authority maintains justice. imho, without this demonstration, children are much more likely grow up self-centered and looking out for themselves. Without some justice in the world, they've got to!

If I accidentally leave my wallet visible in my car and someone takes it--yup, my mistake--but, if there are police there I expect them to help retrieve my wallet. If the person who took it says, "no" to their initial polite request, some force may be required (I do expect them to be respectful in their force, not to use derogatory words or excessive violence!). I would be appalled if the police said, "well, he doesn't want to give it back. sorry!"

I am similar disturbed by the other mother's response to her little boy not wanting to give the toy back! Sure, take a minute to play with it, finish your turn, but keep it all afternoon?!?


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

I replied earlier, but I just wanted to say this is one of the best threads I've read in the GD forum. Usually I come away from here thinking I'm doing every damn thing wrong, and I don't understand anything. It's nice for once to see mamas I deeply respect (especially thismama, heartmama, and abimommy) discussing something that I have definitely encountered before in my parenting - and I don't feel completely out of the loop! I've definitely learned a few things here...


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beanma* 
Have you thought about what you would do if, say, the other mom wasn't around and you were babysitting for the boy? Your dd takes one of the boy's toys and the boy is upset. What would you tell your dd? That's probably what I would tell the boy and the mom.

"Oh, thanks! You found dd's toy. She dropped it when she went to the potty," holding out your hand to receive it back.

"Yeah, it is pretty cool, isn't it. It's really special to dd. Would you like to hold it a few more minutes? Tell you what, I'll sing the ABC song and when I'm done, let's trade and I'll give you this dump truck. A B C D... All right, I'm done. Time to trade." (I used the ABC song as a timing method a lot when my kids were little. They couldn't understand how long a minute was, but they understood when the ABC song would end. Was great for giving toys back, stopping nursing, getting ready to leave the park, etc.)

"Awwww...I'm sorry you don't want to, but it belongs to dd and see how upset she is? I can help you find another toy if you'd like, but we need to give this toy back to dd now."

Sympathetic, but firm.

As for the tricycle incident. I would have corrected the other child on that, too:

[He pushes her off. She's crying.] "Hey, [boy's name], it's okay if you want to ride the trike, but it's not okay to push dd off. The way to let her know nicely is to say, 'dd, that's my trike and I'd like to ride it now'. Do you understand? Now, let's stop and get off and check in with her and make sure she's okay and then you can have your ride."

I think it would be fine for you to talk to the other mom, but personally I think it would be fine to step in and take care of both kids if she's not doing it adequately. If you're gentle and yet take control of the situation she probably won't be upset and will pick up some ideas from you. I know that even though we rarely leave our kids with anyone there are plenty of times that other parents have the opportunity to say something to my kids about their behavior whether it's at a friend's house (let's not play in mom and dad's bedroom) or on the playground, (throwing sand is not a good idea, 'cause it might get in someone's eyes), etc, etc.

I think just extend that "it takes a village" concept and don't wait for mom to step in since she's having a hard time with it. I mean, you could give her one chance, but if you see she's having a hard time step in and support her by showing the kids what they need to know.

These are all great suggestions. I totally agree.


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

*I added comments in bold*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greenfish* 
I've been reading with great fascination...and I think I've figured out my puzzlement.

Humans have the capacity for aggression as well as bonding and empathy. Little people experiment with all sorts of ways to get their needs and desires met--including aggression.

This leads to problem #1: It seems that this little boy is learning that aggression is a great way to get what he wants. If he gets to play on the trike after pushing your daughter off...!!! At my house, I would give him a chance to give the (shared) trike back (while holding it still for him) and if he couldn't do that, I would gently pick him up and sit down with him to help him wait for his turn. I would encourage the other child to finish her turn and then let him have his turn. If she was unable to share then the tables would be turned and we'd have to repeat in the opposite direction.

But aggression isn't only a negative thing. Yes, we can use aggression to be selfish, mean, hateful...but we can also use aggression to stand up for our kids, insist on justice, demand our public officials do what is in the best interests of the constituents...these all use our inherent aggression, but in service of love and justice. This leads to problem #2 (imho): in this situation neither child is learning that aggression can be used for justice.

*In my experience Justice is not aggressive. Assertive Yes, but aggressive no. Justice in the original case is making sure the toy is returned to the little girl in a timely manner. Keeping in mind the little boy never used aggression to get a hold of the object in the first place. It doesn't seem absurd to me to give him some leeway in returning it.*

This is why I don't have a problem with, gently, as a last resort, taking a toy away from a child. The children learn that there is justice in this world and that appropriate use of authority maintains justice. imho, without this demonstration, children are much more likely grow up self-centered and looking out for themselves. Without some justice in the world, they've got to!

*You refer to taking the toy away as being a last resort action and I do agree, I feel in the situation described there were many possible solutions that were never tried that should have come before physically taking it away.*

If I accidentally leave my wallet visible in my car and someone takes it--yup, my mistake--but, if there are police there I expect them to help retrieve my wallet. If the person who took it says, "no" to their initial polite request, some force may be required (I do expect them to be respectful in their force, not to use derogatory words or excessive violence!). I would be appalled if the police said, "well, he doesn't want to give it back. sorry!"

*I do agree that in the adult world this is true an adult would be expected to give something back immediately. But in this hypothetical someone has gone into your private space and removed something he clearly knew was not his. In the case of the little boy, he found something laying on the floor in a public space he didn't have any reason to believe he shouldn't be playing with it. Of course it was later made clear that it didn't belong to him, but since toddlers don't understand ownership in the same way as adults I think we need to have some empathy for the little boy and his point of view. "Wow I found this great toy to play with and now, for reasons I can't understand, this other child is screaming and crying at me. And now they're taking the toy out of my hand and I don't understand because I thought we weren't supposed to grab things"*

I am similar disturbed by the other mother's response to her little boy not wanting to give the toy back! Sure, take a minute to play with it, finish your turn, but keep it all afternoon?!?

*I totally agree that the mother's response was inappropriate, obviously if the little girl was upset at the boy playing with the toy she isn't going to want him to borrow it for the afternoon. However most people on here don't even feel the boy should have been given the leeway of a minute or so to finish his turn. Most people felt that this toddler should have understood that it wasn't his toy and be immediately compliant and hand the toy back or it should have been removed. I think that's overly harsh toward a young child who frankly in this case was acting in a way that was completely developmentally appropriate.*


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I haven't seen anyone say that. The boy was giving more than a minute. He was given lots of opportunities and explanations.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

I'm hearing many people say they would "just (gently) take it back." And dismissing other GD tactics (like playfullness, prevention, waiting, etc.) which are being suggested here.









I don't think anyone is supporting the tactics the actual mother used (suggesting that the hysterical child have empathy for her son, asking to keep the toy for the afternoon, etc).

But I see nothing wrong with offering a trade or trying any number of GD tactics suggested here. Lots of great ideas!! Thanks!


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *junipermuse* 
Most people felt that this toddler should have understood that it wasn't his toy and be immediately compliant and hand the toy back or it should have been removed.

I don't think that's accurate.
I think the difference is, ultimately, many people don't feel like the most important thing *at that moment* is that the boy understands. If, after trying to explain it, he doesn't quite get it right away, that doesn't mean that resolving the situation needs to wait until he does. More explaination can be given AFTER the toy is returned.

Especially since, given the other examples of his interactions with her daughter (and his mother's responses), it doesn't seem likely that he would understand in any reasonably timely manner. How exactly is he supposed to "get" that he needs to give the toy back if he's taken things from her without being stopped before, and if his mother suggests that he get to keep it? Why on earth WOULD he voluntarily give it up when his mom is advocating that he get to keep it all day????


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
No, it is not. It's not the same thing. This is not the child's toy for one thing, so you are not removing his toy to show that taking another toy is wrong. Also, you are the MOTHER. In my world, that means something. This is not a roommate situation here.
*It doesn't matter if the toy is his or the little girls, using force to get what you want is wrong. Just like it was wrong when the little boy pushed the little girl so he could ride his trike. It was HIS trike after all, but I think we all agree he was in the wrong there. I would have expected him to wait until the little girl was finished with her turn before he could get on. Even if he threw an hysterical fit.*

This is hardly comparable to physically assaulting a child.

*my point is that when an adult takes the toy away from a child they are using there size and strength to over power that child. Frankly I would be more comfortable allowing my own child to take the toy back than to take it myself because at least the children are on a more equal footing. I would prefer no one grab from anyone, but I'm particularly concerned about the power dynamic when an adult grabs from a child. Grabbing is simplistic and childish and as an adult I should have other tools to use and should be modeling use of those tools to children.*

Not if you teach them that the world revolves around them, and that they will be treated with extreme gentleness as though they are made of glass, but they are not required to treat others the same way. That is how you get a narcissistic and selfish child. I see 'modelling' here used to the exclusion of directly teaching a child that another person's feelings matter in the situation, right now, and it has to be corrected.

*With regards to treating children as if they are made of glass, there seems to be a real double standard. I agree that the mother is being to gentle with the little boy when he takes the bike away from the little girl, but in the situation with the other toy everyone seems to feel that the little girl is so fragile that she will break if the toy is not returned immediately. I really don't get it.*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
Yep and what is it teaching the girl? That people can take her stuff and walk all over her?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *dawningmama* 
Yep, especially if they are bigger. And the boy is learning that he can take what he wants and refuse to give it back, even if it does not actually belong to him. That's a pretty dangerous lesson.

*If the toy were taken home by the boy, then yes she would be learning that people are taking her stuff and walking all over her. Waiting a few minutes because he is having a turn just teaches that if she doesn't want to share her toys she should watch over them more closely. If the boy were 4 or 5 (an age where children have a much clearer understanding of ownership) I would want be much more firm about not taking something that belongs to someone else, and I would expect the child to immediately return the item when told that it is not his. In this case the child is much younger and their understanding of ownership at this age is much simpler. Basically they are just beginning to understand the concept of "if its in my hands I get to use it and if its in someone else's hand then they get to use it" The lesson the little boy gets when the toy is taken from him is not "oh that wasn't mine to play with, but rather "When a big person wants something they just take it, wow that must be a good way to get what you want" and frankly that's a hard lesson to undo.*


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
I'm hearing many people say they would "just (gently) take it back." And dismissing other GD tactics (like playfullness, prevention, waiting, etc.) which are being suggested here.









I don't think anyone is supporting the tactics the actual mother used (suggesting that the hysterical child have empathy for her son, asking to keep the toy for the afternoon, etc).

But I see nothing wrong with offering a trade or trying any number of GD tactics suggested here. Lots of great ideas!! Thanks!

Thank you for saying this.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Thank YOU! I'm enjoying your posts tremendously!


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *junipermuse* 
The lesson the little boy gets when the toy is taken from him is not "oh that wasn't mine to play with, but rather "When a big person wants something they just take it, wow that must be a good way to get what you want" and frankly that's a hard lesson to undo.[/B]

I completely disagree. Letting the boy have the toy while the girl is in *hysterics* teaches him that you can get what you want by force and disregard people's feelings.

I agree with your post prothyraia.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

So where is the toy _today?







:_


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:

It doesn't matter if the toy is his or the little girls, using force to get what you want is wrong.
I disagree with this as an across the board sentiment. I think it is fine for a mama to remove a toy from an uncooperative child, physically. YMMV, but it is in the end a difference of opinion.

Quote:

my point is that when an adult takes the toy away from a child they are using there size and strength to over power that child. Frankly I would be more comfortable allowing my own child to take the toy back than to take it myself because at least the children are on a more equal footing.
I don't think it is a bad thing for mothers to use 'power over' with our children. Respectfully, with explanation, yes. But power over is reality in a parent/child relationship and I think failing to acknowledge it, or being afraid to ever use it, is not the answer here. I see a lot of ineffectual GD parenting, and that is where I am coming from, and a lot of advocacy for mothers to work harder harder harder to avoid ever having a confrontation with our children or a less than dreamy-delightful moment. That is too much effort for me, and I think it is not better, but actively worse, for our children to attempt to construct that kind of situation.


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prothyraia* 
I don't think that's accurate.
I think the difference is, ultimately, many people don't feel like the most important thing *at that moment* is that the boy understands. If, after trying to explain it, he doesn't quite get it right away, that doesn't mean that resolving the situation needs to wait until he does. More explaination can be given AFTER the toy is returned. *But why isn't the boys feelings as important as the girls feelings? This is what I don't understand. There are a number of possible solutions to getting the toy back (respecting the needs of the little girl) that are also gentle and don't involve physically removing the toy from the boys hands (respectful to him). These suggestions seem to be continually poo-pooed because they take too long or take take too much effort on part of the mom. So what I keep hearing is that the girls feelings are very important, the mom's desire not to work too hard at problem solving is pretty important, but the boys desire to explore this toy that he legitimately found on the ground not being used by anybody is really pretty inconsequential.*

Especially since, given the other examples of his interactions with her daughter (and his mother's responses), it doesn't seem likely that he would understand in any reasonably timely manner. How exactly is he supposed to "get" that he needs to give the toy back if he's taken things from her without being stopped before, and if his mother suggests that he get to keep it? Why on earth WOULD he voluntarily give it up when his mom is advocating that he get to keep it all day????

*I think its hard to say how long it might have taken him. The only solutions that were tried was simply asking him to give it back and the other mother's insane request to the little girl that he be allowed to keep it for the afternoon. Hardly a comprehensive list of possible solutions.*


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Yeah, how did it resolve?? Did he eventually hand the toy back or what?


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
I completely disagree. Letting the boy have the toy while the girl is in *hysterics* teaches him that you can get what you want by force and disregard people's feelings.

picking up a toy off the ground is not "getting what you want by force" There is no force involved. However I could see where immediately handing the toy back to little girl just because she became hysterical might be teaching her to get what she wants by throwing a screaming hissy fit.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I wasn't talking about physical force, and it is still ignoring other people's emotions.

It is my understanding that the girl was upset not throwing a hissy fit.

All of it is immaterial because it was her freaking toy.

If someone takes my possession, I might throw a hissy fit or I might forcibly take it from whoever wants their turn.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
I would have said to the other mother "it isn't acceptable to me that your son keep the toy after the playday is over. Why don't you help him find a way to give it back while I help my child calm down in another room. Perhaps you can find something to trade for instead. There are some small trinkets he could have in the box beside the backdoor. I'm sure we can find a way to help the kids resolve this problem". Perhaps this mother needs help with clear boundaries as well? It might just be that she needs to hear what your limits are so that she can help her son process them.

I really like these suggestions.









My first instinct would be to take the toy away too but I think this approach is even better.


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I disagree with this as an across the board sentiment. I think it is fine for a mama to remove a toy from an uncooperative child, physically. YMMV, but it is in the end a difference of opinion.

I don't think it is a bad thing for mothers to use 'power over' with our children. Respectfully, with explanation, yes. But power over is reality in a parent/child relationship and I think failing to acknowledge it, or being afraid to ever use it, is not the answer here. I see a lot of ineffectual GD parenting, and that is where I am coming from, and a lot of advocacy for mothers to work harder harder harder to avoid ever having a confrontation with our children or a less than dreamy-delightful moment. That is too much effort for me, and I think it is not better, but actively worse, for our children to attempt to construct that kind of situation.

I really do see where you're coming from. I agree there are a lot of GD parents who leave out the D part of the equation. The little boys mother seems to be one of those types of mom's. For me personally I would rather not physically remove something from my child's hands unless it was absolutely neccessary, but as a parent everyone can draw the line where they feel comfortable. Especially with regards to their own child. I do believe however that when it comes to disciplining other peoples children it is important to do so with as much gentleness as one can possible muster up. In this case with the toy obviously the other mother wasn't going to step up to the plate so the disciplining was left entirely up to the OP, which is not really fair, but what can you do. I would hope no one would ever grab something out of my child's hand (unless safety was an issue) while they were disciplining my child. I probably don't have to worry though because I am usually pretty proactive when with my little one at the park.

I did want to say that a similar situation did occur at the park not too long ago where another child picked up our sand toy and didn't want to give it back even though it was time for us to leave. I explained to him that it was ours and we needed to go home, but he was just standing there holding the toy and staring at me. The child was there with a daycare and the teacher was busy with other kids and wasn't really available to help. The child refused to give it back and I really didn't want to take it from him. Finally i asked him if he would like to play with it for 1 more minute or 2 more minutes and he said 2 minutes. I said I would let him know when 2 minutes was up and before 2 minutes were even up he handed me the toy. I do suppose if he had continued to refuse to return the toy I either would have had to enlist the help of the teacher or take it from him, but after years of teaching young children I am usually pretty confident that I can solve a problem with a child without force.


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
It is my understanding that the girl was upset not throwing a hissy fit.

Yes, Junipermuse, I'm so offended by you continuing to characterize it this way. I haven't said anything about it because I didn't think it was conducive to anything here. She was extremely emotionally distraught, hysterical at the fact that a little boy that she is wary of would not return an item that is precious to her. As well as the fact that it was not getting resolved and was going on and on.

I've been very respectful with how I characterize the other child's behavior, and I would appreciate it if you did the same with mine.


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
Yeah, how did it resolve?? Did he eventually hand the toy back or what?

She finally gently removed it from him--after about 10 minutes of him sitting quietly holding it, watching everyone do a song and dance to get it from him and watching my DD in obvious pain. It is so ridiculous to me how easy it was for his mama to gently remove it from him, and yet what lengths she was going to to stick with some sort of GD/consensual living/non-violent communication ideology. It's shaken my belief in all this.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I don't see anything wrong with taking a toy from a child after requesting it back, explaining why, and having the child not comply. I am not a jump-around-doing-tricks type of mama, and I think that is just fine.

I agree. It sounds like a very big deal was made out of a very small deal here.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
what lengths she was going to to stick with some sort of GD/consensual living/non-violent communication ideology.

As others have said, it doesn't sound *to me* like she was actually using any of those ideologies, rather she was trying to find a sorta-nice-way to get her kid what he wanted. And that that's what she generally does. Very different.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
She finally gently removed it from him--after about 10 minutes of him sitting quietly holding it, watching everyone do a song and dance to get it from him and watching my DD in obvious pain. It is so ridiculous to me how easy it was for his mama to gently remove it from him, and yet what lengths she was going to to stick with some sort of GD/consensual living/non-violent communication ideology. It's shaken my believe in all this.

I'm sorry you and your daughter had to deal with that, but it is definitely not gd.


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## aaronsmom (Jan 22, 2007)

My sister is exactly like this other mother....or rather, much worse in her parenting strategies. Her son (my nephew) is 3 and my son is 20 months old and half his size. My nephew is always bullying my son physically and she literally *does absolutely nothing* and I'm not exaggerating. This leaves me to deal with the situation (and I do because usually it involves my child being physical hurt) and I've had several conversations with her about this.







:
Anyway, at least this mama was trying to do something but I don't think she went about it right. She especially shouldn't have suggested that her DS take the toy home with him since you had already explained that it was special to your DD.
The only advice I can give you is to talk to the other mama about it to make sure you guys are on the same page the next time a conflict arises between the little ones. But be careful because most people get really defensive when their parenting is questioned, I know I do. HTH!


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
I wasn't talking about physical force, and it is still ignoring other people's emotions.

It is my understanding that the girl was upset not throwing a hissy fit.

All of it is immaterial because it was her freaking toy.

If someone takes my possession, I might throw a hissy fit or I might forcibly take it from whoever wants their turn.

So since she should be allowed to take back her toy by any means neccessary, I assume you don't have any problem with the little boy taking back his trike by pushing her off of it because after all it was HIS trike

If you're referring to force as any means of control then hysterically screaming and crying (which I personally feel is a hissy fit, but if you don't then it was a bad word choice on my part) is using force to get her way in the same way that withholding the toy is a means of force for the little boy. I personally feel physical force is more inappropriate then this emotional force.

Talking the boy through the situation does not require the girl's feelings to be ignored. Her feelings can be validated through words "I hear you are really upset, you don't want him to play with your toy" and through the action of getting the toy back. Just because the result isn't immediate doesn't mean that the little girls needs aren't being met. Also keep in mind that the little boy isn't actually getting to play with the toy while the discussion is going on. It's not like he's off in some corner playing happily while the little girl is forced to cry in hysterics and watch. So even though he's holding the toy he isn't really getting his way either.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

That is beyond ridiculous. I never said by any means necessary and I would try other things first.

There is a huge difference between gently removing a toy from a child's hand and pushing a child off a trike. And yes if the child would not get off the trike, she would have to be gently removed.

And I never said taking the toy would be the first thing I do. I would try lots of other things first.

Quote:

I do suppose if he had continued to refuse to return the toy I either would have had to enlist the help of the teacher or take it from him,
And you said you would do the same thing.

I don't think this was emotional force. I think she was genuinely upset. She has every right to express her feelings.

The OP has said it was not a hissy fit, and you are being rude.


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
Yes, Junipermuse, I'm so offended by you continuing to characterize it this way. I haven't said anything about it because I didn't think it was conducive to anything here. She was extremely emotionally distraught, hysterical at the fact that a little boy that she is wary of would not return an item that is precious to her. As well as the fact that it was not getting resolved and was going on and on.

I've been very respectful with how I characterize the other child's behavior, and I would appreciate it if you did the same with mine.

I apologize for offending you, I do hear how that term is hurtful. And frankly I don't believe there was anything wrong or inappropriate in your daughter being emotionally distraught over the little boy having her toy. Or in you wanting to swiftly remedy the situation. I do agree you were respectful with regards to your description of the little boy as well. Many people here were not and they characterized him as aggressive and spoiled. I was trying to demonstrate that those types of label could easily be turned around and applied to other children as well. It was unfair for me to use your child as an example of that though. I am sorry. Frankly I think it is unfair to apply those types of labels to any child who is just acting in a developmentally appropriate fashion.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Again I haven't seen anyone say the boy was selfish. People are saying the mother was wrong and her parenting was ineffective.

She is teaching him to have a sense of entitlement, not respect other people's property, that his will trumps all, etc. That is not good.

Yes he is being developmentally appropriate, and it is the parents' job to teach him what to do.


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## junipermuse (Nov 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 

The OP has said it was not a hissy fit, and you are being rude.

I'm sorry about my posting following the post where rzberrymom said she was offended. There was a cross-posting issue at that moment. And I did apologize. However I will now bow out now as it was not my intention to be rude or offend anyone. Again I am sorry.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Another thing that bothers me is that a few posters have implied that this girl had a hissy fit to manipulate the situation. I see that she was very upset and expressing that. I am disturbed that people are attributing ulterior motives to her displays of emotion.


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## LianneM (May 26, 2004)

I continue to be surprised at the insistence that the little girl would actually learn something by watching adults gently try to convince this boy to return her toy. She was hysterical - that means she was literally incapable of learning anything in that moment. That is why we wait until things are calm, we and our children are regulated, before we discuss the problems and talk about how we'd handle it differently the next time. In that moment of emotional distress, there is no reason to even bother trying to teach and explain, because it will not process - the short-term memory just shuts off.

This is where heartmama's suggestion (I think







) was to remove her from the room - and most times it would be an excellent idea. I'm not sure if she would have been able to calm down or not, wondering if she was going to get that toy back, but maybe. It's a case-by-case thing where only the mother who knows her child best can decide.

But really, to think she would learn anything when hysterical is just surprising to me.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

double post


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
I'm hearing many people say they would "just (gently) take it back." And dismissing other GD tactics (like playfullness, prevention, waiting, etc.) which are being suggested here.









I don't think anyone is supporting the tactics the actual mother used (suggesting that the hysterical child have empathy for her son, asking to keep the toy for the afternoon, etc).

But I see nothing wrong with offering a trade or trying any number of GD tactics suggested here. Lots of great ideas!! Thanks!

in this situation we would have, because the child was given many opportunitys.

and I do not see waiting while your child is hysterical and paniced as gentle parenting at all.


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## Kennedyzoo (Jun 17, 2007)

There are so many points here to think about (and obviously debate) especially with the added scenario of the tricycle incident. And while the tricycle incident seems to show a more negative though age appropriate side to the 2.5 year old...the best intervention to that incident would have been just the opposite of the dropped toy incident - you do not grab something away from someone else, even if it is YOURS, my daughter is playing with the trike now and she will return it to you in a short while....letting his mom deal with the likely reaction.

I am a bit concerned that so many posters referred to problem solving as "song and dance". One of the biggest issues in socialization of children is problem solving as well as one of the best strengths of gentle discipline. Junipermuse was simple suggesting that a little time be taken to make that happen and that we need to see situations from all sides.

But I think someone else said correctly the primary concern would have been in calming the poster's dd and assuring her that mom would indeed see that the favorite toy would be returned. But as I would not have returned the trike to my son if he had gotten so upset about sharing, I would also not feel I needed to immediately get back her special toy either. Believe me though, I would have been watching the little boy every minute with dd in my arms to make sure that toy was safe . If I felt that the only way to get the toy back (because the mom was too permissive or whatever) was to pack up and go home I would have done that with a "I'm glad you had some time to play with the toy but we are leaving now and it needs to come home with us." I just think that would be a later solution rather than an earlier one.

It does seem much easier to use GD or any child rearing method on your own child than it is on others and none of us want to see our children in pain so I certainly understand that there are those who emphathize more closely with poster and her daughter but we do need to be consistent and I wonder what our responses would have been if we read the tricycle incident first.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wonderwahine* 
in this situation we would have, because the child was given many opportunitys.

and I do not see waiting while your child is hysterical and paniced as gentle parenting at all.

Holding out your handing and waiting for the toy while the girl is hysterical isn't gentle parenting?







:

So if the boy had given the girl "many opportunities" to get off his bike, would you support him taking it from her?

I'm not saying taking the toy from the boy's hand in a gentle way isn't something I might resort to, but I definitely think that we should be considering ways to solve that problem without force. And likewise, him taking the bike from her is understandable and expedient, but I definitely think we (and he) should consider other means.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kennedyzoo* 
I am a bit concerned that so many posters referred to problem solving as "song and dance".

Me, too.







:


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
So if the boy had given the girl "many opportunities" to get off his bike, would you support him taking it from her?

yes, but as a parent, i wouldnt be standing there letting it carry on, i would have stepped in and asked my dc to give them a turn and maybe later they will let you use their trike. had they refused, i would have picked them up and given the trike to the owner.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
As others have said, it doesn't sound *to me* like she was actually using any of those ideologies, rather she was trying to find a sorta-nice-way to get her kid what he wanted. And that that's what she generally does. Very different.


That's what I think too.

You can't blame the boy. Who wouldn't want to have a French Speaking surf board??? Even I want one now. But, maybe the Mom wanted him to be able to play with it, and she was using "GD" as her sheild.


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## Iris' Mom (Aug 3, 2007)

This is a very interesting thread. Most of what I personally believe has been well put by thismomma and the lissa. The one thing I would add is that I don't agree with the concern that returning a toy to a hysterical 3-yo is "validating" the view that a "mere object" is important, and that attachment to material objects ought to be discouraged at all costs in small children. The contrary view that some seem to espouse is "finders keepers losers weepers." I really don't think that this belief system is superior to the one that actually prevails in our society -- that people have the right to request, and then demand, and then retake, ownership of their own property.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 

Me, too.







:









I think lots of us are talking about problem solving. But IMO there is problem solving and then there is song and dance. Giving the child an explanation of the importance of the toy and a chance to return it, and then removing it when he is not cooperative, is problem solving IMO. Standing around begging while he turns it into a major extended drama is song and dance.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I agree thismama.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wonderwahine* 
yes, but as a parent, i wouldnt be standing there letting it carry on, i would have stepped in and asked my dc to give them a turn and maybe later they will let you use their trike. had they refused, i would have picked them up and given the trike to the owner.

I'm personally not comfortable sort of "truncating" the problem solving aspects of this scenario and heading fairly quickly to physical coercion. I don't think it accounts for what happens if the mama (the biggest arbitrator of what's fair) isn't around. I, personally, think that modelling a huge array of negotiating and problem-solving is really, really important. I don't think it accounts for what happens if the mama isn't bigger/stronger--b/c that's sort of what all of this depends on, really. And I think working toward a solution that makes ALL parties comfortable (even if that process is difficult) is better than finding a solution that leaves one person feeling shafted (even if that process is easier). But, that's ideally. If I had been the OP I'd probably wanted to smack the boy, cuss out the mom, and take my kid's toy and maybe one of his--just for good measure.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Iris' Mom* 
that people have the right to request, and then demand, and then retake, ownership of their own property.









: if this was an arguement/disagreement over a toy in a communal play area or at a playgroup etc, tough tittys, you gotta share. If its YOUR toy, your object, you (the child) have every right to deny the sharing of it, and I will tottaly validate that. It is afterall their property.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *junipermuse* 
But why isn't the boys feelings as important as the girls feelings? This is what I don't understand.

Because it's not his toy.
I'm not saying he did anything wrong, and I'm not saying that trying other, less forceful methods first isn't a good idea. But, ultimately, how he feels about someone else's possesion is less important than how the owner feels about their possession. And I think it's okay for him to learn that even at a young age.

I'd be advocating more for creative solutions and less for direct force (which I don't happen to think is wrong) if 1. The OP's DD wasn't quite so upset, given her history with this little boy, and/or 2. The boy's mother wasn't advocating solely for her son at the expense of the little girl. "He really likes it, can he keep it for the day?" would bring out the mama bear in me, and it would be time to say "No he can't, and we have to go now, I need the toy back right now."


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

"So what I keep hearing is that the girls feelings are very important, the mom's desire not to work too hard at problem solving is pretty important, but the boys desire to explore this toy that he *legitimately found on the ground* not being used by anybody is really pretty inconsequential."

bold mine

What are we teaching our children about found toys? That they are free to play with them?

I don't believe that children (or adults) have a "legitimate" right to explore an toy found on the ground. At toddler age, if my dd picked up a toy on the ground (in a public space....not a friend's house), I would say something like "Ooh, cool toy. Who do you think it belongs to?" We might ask if she could play with it, or if no one was around to ask, she might play with it with the understanding that we would return it if the owner appeared to claim it. But either way, the reminder was there that this is not her toy--and it must be returned at the owner's requests. She absolutely understood that at 2.5. She liked to take lost toys at the library to the librarian for safe keeping. She knew they belonged to another child.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
If I had been the OP I'd probably wanted to smack the boy, cuss out the mom, and take my kid's toy and maybe one of his--just for good measure.
















Ha!

I love it when the gd-zenmasters reveal their human side


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Yeah, but some of the toys in the OP's situation ARE supposed to be shared if found--like the tricycle. I think it's trickier in her case b/c of those extra elements.

I definitely agree that the owner--in general--gets to kind of call the shots with their stuff. And that sometimes there's just stuff that isn't up for sharing--and I still think kids ought to be able to bring that stuff where they want.

But I think the original situation is a bit different.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
Ha!

I love it when the gd-zenmasters reveal their human side









Hee! But, I am *hardly* a gd-zenmaster!

Quite honestly, the reason I try to get into a co-operative mindframe about this stuff is b/c I will go right into smackdown mode if it starts to be a power struggle/pissing match. ANd of course, god blessed me with a mini-me who does the exact same thing.







Consensus is better for me....for us!


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 







I think lots of us are talking about problem solving. But IMO there is problem solving and then there is song and dance. Giving the child an explanation of the importance of the toy and a chance to return it, and then removing it when he is not cooperative, is problem solving IMO. Standing around begging while he turns it into a major extended drama is song and dance.

Yep.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
Yeah, but some of the toys in the OP's situation ARE supposed to be shared if found--like the tricycle. I think it's trickier in her case b/c of those extra elements.

I definitely agree that the owner--in general--gets to kind of call the shots with their stuff. And that sometimes there's just stuff that isn't up for sharing--and I still think kids ought to be able to bring that stuff where they want.

But I think the original situation is a bit different.

I think the sharing over the trike is to confusing for toddlers, if it was my ds, i wouldnt keep it out in the communal area, and if it was my dd, i would remind her that its not her trike, so if the owner comes by and wants it, she has to give it back. I would probably buy my own trike for my kid, and remind them to ride their own, just to prevent confusion, but I'm that kind of person.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 







I think lots of us are talking about problem solving. But IMO there is problem solving and then there is song and dance. Giving the child an explanation of the importance of the toy and a chance to return it, and then removing it when he is not cooperative, is problem solving IMO. Standing around begging while he turns it into a major extended drama is song and dance.

Hmmm...I guess I misunderstood b/c it seemed like there were some other suggestions besides "standing around begging" which got dismissed as song and dance and such.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkey's mom* 
Hmmm...I guess I misunderstood b/c it seemed like there were some other suggestions besides "standing around begging" which got dismissed as song and dance and such.

It just seems to me like song and dance to spend ages negotiating for the removal of a toy from a young child whose toy it is not. Especially while someone else stands there crying hysterically. That for me makes it over the line not okay to spend lots of time on it. Also honestly I just don't have the desire/energy to work that hard on a pretty minor incident, which is likely to be one of many in a day with a small child. I would be exhausted and burnt out if I never got to pull veto power.

YMMV and that's okay, but it seems the more CL perspective is getting held up on this forum a lot as 'more' GD than other approaches. I think anything respectful and gentle while still effective counts as GD.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I think anything respectful and gentle while still effective counts as GD.

I agree that there are many, many things that constitute GD and that we are all going to pick and choose what works for us. But just as it's insulting to some to say, "Well, removing the toy is just bullying," it's insulting to others to say, "Making a game of it [or offering a trade or whatever] is a song and dance." If both are GD (and I think they are), then perhaps we could disagree or discuss while avoiding the denigrating remarks.


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## lovemyfamily6 (Dec 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *junipermuse* 
Some ideas are:
-offer a trade
-offer a choice, "would you like to hand it to me or to your mommy"
-ask "how many minutes until you are done?" this can be combined with a choice such as "would you like to look at it for 1 more minute or 2"
-make it into a game "can you fly the surfboad to me?", "can you hop like a bunny and bring me the surfboard"
-Play the surprise me game "I'm going to close my eyes and count to ten, lets see if you can surprise me by putting down the surf board before I get to 10"
-_waiting for the bus_ which is from a parenting book that I can't remember the title of at the moment, but the concept is that you tell the child what you expect them to do and then just wait patiently and expectantly for them to comply


Thank you for this. I'm always striving to do better. When I'm just thinking and it's a calm moment, I do much better than when "in the moment". I really like the surprise me game.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

First, the age thing:
The boy is 2.5 (30 months), the girl is nearly 3 (33 months), so essentially, they are the SAME age.

Everything I bold is what I most agree with in the following quotes:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Max'sMama* 

I think that you should have said to the mom and the baby, " *that is DD's toy, one that I do not require she share, please return it."*
I think that some parents (and from your description-your neighbor) forget that *Gentle Discipline means Gently TEACH.*
*That includes teaching appropriate behavior.*

This is why I feel that you should be able and comfortable in saying please return the toy and you shouldn't feel bad about telling the mom that she needs to return the toy IMMEDIATELY to your child.
She would probably expect, if the tables were turned, for your child to immediately return her child's prized possession.

*I also think that it's absurd for her to see your child getting hysterical and still ask to keep the toy for the afternoon.*


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Learning_Mum* 
As for her DS, seems to me is all she taught him there was "if you take something that you want, that doesn't belong to you, and then you yell and scream enough I'll let you keep it".

I understand the boy didn't yell, scream or in any way indicate he was upset.
Why would he be?
He had the toy and he wasn't giving it up.
He had nothing to be upset about.
It was the girl who was upset.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aran* 
*I teach my toddler what is socially acceptable, with empathy for his toddler feelings.

* In this case, it would probably mean telling the mom that she needs to get the toy in my hands now, because dc needs to leave... and then leave.

I'm not sure why anyone would have to leave at that point.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aran* 
*
Trying to teach in the heat of the moment is not going to work well,* IME.
*I think the expectation to share *everything* is unrealistic.

* I agree that much angst can be avoided by not bringing cherished items around other kids.
But your dc needs to decide for herself to share her items.
They are ultimately hers and understanding sharing means, first, understanding ownership.
The borrower is not the one who should decide sharing arrangements - that will teach dc to be resentful, stingy and miserly, ultimately, IMO.

ETA: cross-post with the op - I see it happens with sharing in general, and not just with special items.
I really wouldn't want my dc playing with this boy if he's behaving like this regularly, unchecked.
But I think kid-kid interactions at such young ages are highly overrated so I just avoid the kids with behaviors I don't want to see in my sons.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
If I were you, I think I would do more disciplining of the boy.
I would kind of act like I would if the mother wasn't there.
For example, if he came to push my dd off of her trike, I'd say, "Dd is still using it, you'll have to wait your turn.
Here, want to play with XYZ?" Have you tried that?

I think your dd would appreciate you standing up for her, and you can model it for her so she can learn it too.
*In fact, you could even tell her, "Dd, if you're not finished with the trike, you can tell him that you're still having a turn.
Say, 'I'm not finished, don't push me!'*"

I strongly support empowering children, especially when dealing with bullies.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wonderwahine* 
If it was her comfort toy, I highly doubt putting it up where even she couldn't touch it would make her calm.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *alllyssa* 
*Gentle discipline isn't supposed to be about turning our kids into spoiled brats, but unfortunately that's how a lot of people see it -
it's gone to the extreme of almost "un-parenting" and not being able to tell your kiddo "no" or "give that back right to her".*


Quote:


Originally Posted by *homewithtwinsmama* 
...telling him that *its not OK to keep her toy and let her get so upset.*
It is coming with us since we are leaving now.
There is gentle discipline and there is child rules the roost to the point where everyone else has to suffer so the little prince doesn't get his feathers ruffled.
To me that does not qualify as GD, just timid parenting.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
I don't think it is right to expect a 2 yo. to calm down and learn about surviving without their attachment object.
I think it is too high an expectation.
....ts more than an object.
From the child's perspective, its a personality -- her baby.
Its not rational to expect that you would calm down, or learn to accept that you can be okay without your baby for a minute.
You would really just need your baby back -- now.
This little girl has plenty of time to learn that her doll is just an object.
She doesn't need to learn that as a toddler.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *graceomalley* 
*You should have implored her son to have some empathy for your hysterical daughter!!!*


Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiverSky* 
I truly don't understand why you keep calling that other mother's behavior "gentle discipline"...*she allows her child to push and hit other children...that's not gentle discipline.*
*That is a complete lack of discipline, a lack of teaching her child how to be gentle.*
No, riding a tricycle is not a need.
That seems ludicrous to me.
He wanted the tricycle that he had left in a common area where the rule is that the toys are to be shared, he PUSHED another child off of the tricycle to use it... in no way, shape or form was that a need.
The mother NEEDED to have stepped in and found something else that is fun for the child to do.
In my opinion, your friend is not practicing gentle discipline at all.
This link seems to have some great suggestions, perhaps you can print them off and give them to your friend.
http://www.parentingweb.com/discipline/pos_disc.htm


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 

What are we teaching our children about found toys? That they are free to play with them?

I don't believe that children (or adults) have a "legitimate" right to explore an toy found on the ground..

Yes, yes, yes.

This was not a playdate at someone's house, where the toys are there to be shared. This was in a public space, and the toy was *dropped* on the way to the bathroom.

Lets say I drop a ball of yarn while hustling to help my DD in the potty. I come back and someone has picked it up. I believe it is a very reasonable expectation of me to say, "Oh, that's mine, thanks for picking it up," and expect it be returned to me. Immediately. Perhaps with some conversation about the color or what its for, or what I'm making.... but returned to me.

Same deal with a dropped toy. And sunnmama's tactic on this with her little one sounds perfect: "Oh, look! Rzberrybaby dropped her surfboard! We'd better pick it up for her and hold it _for he_r so she doesn't worry about it! We'll _give it back to her_ as soon as she's out of the potty."

This wasn't about sharing or taking the wrong toy to a playdate. This was about another mother teaching "Finders Keepers."

Further, how long is is reasonable to wait for someone who you've run into in a public space to return a personal item so that you can continue on your day? If this was in a park, was the OP obligated to wait 15 minutes, 30, or an hour, before saying "We'd like to go home now, can we have the toy back?" All while the toy's owner was hysterical?

And OMG, but "Can he take it home? See how much he likes it?" would have brought out the Mama Kodiak in me.

I do agree that there are loads of ways to come at this totally nonviolently, but I come down on the side of "there comes a time when you tell a 2.5yo "This is not yours, you cannot keep it." and you remove it from them as physically gently as you can.


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## mommy2maya (Jun 7, 2003)

I absolutely do not agree with letting my children play with abandoned toys at the playground, under any other circumstances than finding the owner and ASKING permission. That's bs, and my kids would be PO'd to find some random kid riding their bike, or other toys. Especially bikes though, that's not a shared toy imo, unless expressly offered. Now I will say that if I have toddler playdates, I only get out bikes or ride on toys if there is one for every child- whether they want to switch at some point is fine, but each child needs one.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
Yes, yes, yes.

This was not a playdate at someone's house, where the toys are there to be shared. This was in a public space, and the toy was *dropped* on the way to the bathroom.

Lets say I drop a ball of yarn while hustling to help my DD in the potty. I come back and someone has picked it up. I believe it is a very reasonable expectation of me to say, "Oh, that's mine, thanks for picking it up," and expect it be returned to me. Immediately. Perhaps with some conversation about the color or what its for, or what I'm making.... but returned to me.

Same deal with a dropped toy. And sunnmama's tactic on this with her little one sounds perfect: "Oh, look! Rzberrybaby dropped her surfboard! We'd better pick it up for her and hold it _for he_r so she doesn't worry about it! We'll _give it back to her_ as soon as she's out of the potty."

This wasn't about sharing or taking the wrong toy to a playdate. This was about another mother teaching "Finders Keepers."

Further, how long is is reasonable to wait for someone who you've run into in a public space to return a personal item so that you can continue on your day? If this was in a park, was the OP obligated to wait 15 minutes, 30, or an hour, before saying "We'd like to go home now, can we have the toy back?" All while the toy's owner was hysterical?

And OMG, but "Can he take it home? See how much he likes it?" would have brought out the Mama Kodiak in me.

I do agree that there are loads of ways to come at this totally nonviolently, but I come down on the side of "there comes a time when you tell a 2.5yo "This is not yours, you cannot keep it." and you remove it from them as physically gently as you can.









:

I think people are losing sight of the fact that this incident occurred outdoors, in the neighborhood, within the condo's community property.
This was not in anyone's house.
This was not during a play date.


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## jauncourt (Mar 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
It's happened several times before with the two of them, but it's usually more forceful--she's playing a game and he takes the pieces and runs away, she's on a tricycle and he wants to use it and so pushes her off. So I'm not sure leaving this particular toy at home will completely eliminate this issue for us. But, I'll definitely try the substituting technique.

This makes it clearer - it's an ongoing interaction dynamic between the two of them. That, in itself, may have been a significant contributor to her reaction. It may be time to keep them apart for a while, at least until he gets past this behavior stage (it's a stage) and she stops feeling picked on by him. They may just not be compatible playmates right now.

Maura


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## Kennedyzoo (Jun 17, 2007)

This may be beside the point at this time but I was a bit taken aback that several posters thought term "hissy fit" implied that the little girl was being manipulative. (that by describing the dd's reaction as a hissy fit was somehow a negative characterization rather than a state of emotion) It may be my advanced age but I've always understood the word to simply mean an out-of-control episode, a tantrum or such. The word is derived in any case by the term hysterical which the op used to described her daughter's condition.

My own three daughters and myself have indulged in many hissy fits (many quite justifiable I might add!) when things just seem too overwhelming. And certainly no learning, bargaining or problem solving was going to happen until calm had been restored.

I'm well aware of the power of words however and in a sensitive state many comments cause unintentional offense.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Hissy fit is belittling, but the biggest problem was people assuming she was doing it on purpose to manipulate or that she "chose" to do that.

When I cry, especially when it is to the point of hysterics, it is not something I choose or control.


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## Kennedyzoo (Jun 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the_lissa* 
Hissy fit is belittling, but the biggest problem was people assuming she was doing it on purpose to manipulate or that she "chose" to do that.

When I cry, especially when it is to the point of hysterics, it is not something I choose or control.

Absolutely! but that's what I was getting at. I have never thought of a hissy fit as belittling or negative just a time of out of control emotion. We all have had those episodes even as adults and I can tell you I would never choose to feel that way!


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## Kennedyzoo (Jun 17, 2007)

the_lisa, where did you see manipulation assumed? I can't seem to find any but there are such a huge number of postings since this began.


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

The poster admitted that it was belittling and she apologized. I've appreciated her feedback and her integrity. I think this particular thing is a non-issue.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Post 55 is just one of many examples. Yeah it doesn't matter at this point.


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## Kennedyzoo (Jun 17, 2007)

Well, I'm glad for that rzberrymom! It is extremely hurtful to have your child mischaracterized! I hope that overall this has been a helpful experience.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kennedyzoo* 
It is extremely hurtful to have your child mischaracterized!

Amen to that!

Hey, Kennedyzoo....with all that wonderful experience you have in your siggy, what is with the low post count, hmmm???? I think you need to post a whole lot more so we can benefit from your experience







:


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## rzberrymom (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kennedyzoo* 
Well, I'm glad for that rzberrymom! It is extremely hurtful to have your child mischaracterized! I hope that overall this has been a helpful experience.

Yes, it's been helpful. heartmama gave me some good words to use with the mama, and I think it's true that these two kiddos shouldn't be around each other until they get a bit older--tricky considering our neighborhood, but not impossible.

The other mama is the non-violent communication guru in our community, so I know she's aiming to practice some sort of consensual living with her son. After this whole discussion, it has occurred to me that CL works very well within a loving, patient family, but it gets much trickier when practicing it within the bounds of a larger community. 1) My DD is not in a close, loving relationship with this woman and so is naturally not reassured by her attempts to reach a sort of CL solution. And 2.) I'm not convinced it's possible for this woman to have the level of empathy for another person's child that is necessary in order to reach a suitable CL solution.

Anyway, thanks you guys.


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## Kennedyzoo (Jun 17, 2007)

Well, thank you Sunmama! I have been lurking for about 6 months but I'll try to poke my nose in a little more often!!! I just wish I had had this forum when I had little ones underfoot! But you're never too old to learn something new!!!







At least I hope not!


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Someone above already mentioned this, but it does seem to be more about the dynamic between these two particular children. With my, now 4.5yo, there are certain kids he still has trouble with on playdates. It's mostly ok now, but there are definite combinations that are more prone to conflict.

A couple of thoughts:

1. If this is a tight-knit community, is it possible to have some ground rules in community areas? That way, any adult can guide their kiddos (and other kiddos) under the same general rules. (i.e., no hitting/shoving/pushing/etc. AND these are community toys and will be shared.)

2. I would really work on empowering your dd to assert herself in these situations. I think this is done best with modeling it for her initially. I.e., "This is dd's toy and she would like it back now. Let's find something else for you" or whatever. Simply asserting your dd's desires will empower her and teach her how to assert herself in those situations. And, IME, it's absolutely fine to take the toy from the boy if he is unable to give it to her himself...this can be done gently.

3. In the case of pushing her off of the tricycle, I would be very firm that we do not hurt one another. If his mother didn't step up to do this, I'd have no problem doing it myself. I'm a firm believer in the "it takes a village" philosophy and fortuntately my friends are on board with that. If, indeed, these ride on toys are for the community then I would have the boy hop off the trike and ask your dd for a turn when she's done.

One other thought...I have a feeling he was much more interested in the reaction that was caused by this toy in his hands rather than really playing with it. I'm totally assuming, but based on the OP's presentation of this situation it sounds more like the dynamic between these two rather than the specific incident. It sounds like this child needs boundaries and limits and also needs help understanding how his actions affect others. From the sounds of it, his mama is doing him a disservice by her lack of response to his aggressive behaviors.

What a tough spot to be in! I would try to focus on it more from a community perspective. I would step in with other children when boundaries are being crossed. I think you can model that for this other mama...she might appreciate it. I get the feeling she might have NO idea what to do in these situations...she might just welcome your input and help with it.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
The other mama is the non-violent communication guru in our community, so I know she's aiming to practice some sort of consensual living with her son. After this whole discussion, it has occurred to me that CL works very well within a loving, patient family, but it gets much trickier when practicing it within the bounds of a larger community. 1) My DD is not in a close, loving relationship with this woman and so is naturally not reassured by her attempts to reach a sort of CL solution. And 2.) I'm not convinced it's possible for this woman to have the level of empathy for another person's child that is necessary in order to reach a suitable CL solution.

That's intense. I'm really curious to hear form the CL practicers here as to whether or not this fits with their understanding of CL. What happens when another person's rights/desires/etc. are sacrificed in order to appease the other? This seems to be the case with the toy incident. I'm totally baffled by it.

Just like all of us, she's probably working it all through as she's going along. If you can get some distance between her child and yours, that would probably be best for everyone for awhile. We've done that with friends' kiddos who just aren't able to socialize in a way that we're comfortable with...and that's ok. I spend time with the adults alone (when I can!) and I know that some day we'll be able to reconnect more often.

Good luck with it...what a challenging situation. You've give us all a lot to think about with this thread!


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

No way...if one person is hysterical and screaming, "NO! NO!" then you can pretty much guess that they're not consenting to the terms.







And suggesting things like she empathize with her son is *I guess* one *possible* solution--technically--but wtf? That's so out there, I can't even imagine. How could you suggest that to any hysterical person?? But again, I don't think this woman is as committed to these philosophies as she is to getting her son what he wants at any given moment--because if it's coming at the expense of others then it's *not* CL.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rzberrymom* 
...But the mama continued imploring my DD to have empathy for her son and to look at how important it seems to him and would my DD be willing to leave it with him. This went on and on and on..

I'm sorry if you already answered this. But how did it turn out? Did your dd get her toy, and if so, how?


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## Perdita_in_Ontario (Feb 7, 2007)

Wow - so much for going to be early tonight - just read this beginning to end and it was a great read.

Not sure anyone really needs my commentary on this but I offer it anyway:

Your DD was acting her age. The little boy was acting _his_ age. And the other mother was, IMO, acting like a twit.

Sounds like it started off like a GD situation, but by the end she sounded like a powerless parent who was more interested in avoiding her son's upset than trying to solve a problem.

What would I have done? After staring at her in disbelief that she would suggest such an odd thing? Say to her "No... this is DD's toy and while I believe in teaching sharing, he's had his turn (because it sounds like it had been a little while...) and please get it back now." I likely wouldn't have taken it from his hands myself, but I would have made it very plain that it was time for her to be a grown-up.


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## melissel (Jun 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I'm sorry if you already answered this. But how did it turn out? Did your dd get her toy, and if so, how?

Here you go.

WOW. My blood is boiling just reading your posts. I don't know how you managed to stay calm in the face of that. When you said your daughter was so hysterical she was stuffing her fist in her mouth, I wanted to throw up







: I'm really sorry you both had to deal with that. I think you've gotten amazing advice, and as usual, I so appreciate reading the intelligent and well-formed thoughts of the smart mamas on this board.


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