# The guilt of FF



## redvlagrl (Dec 2, 2009)

I've always been a huge proponent of ERFing. I've posted vids on my facebook page etc. Our plan was to RF DD until he maxed out her seat that fit in our car (Evenflo Triumph Advance).

When our new baby came along we bought a seat that allowed us to keep her RFing (we have a small car).

DD is now 22 mths and we switched her FFing 2 weeks ago. We went on a road trip which we had to do in one day and we wanted to be able to drive on the baby's schedule, not her's. I'm explaining/justifying it badly but basically we wanted to be able to hand her things more easily and hoped that she would be more entertained in the car (being able to see out the window etc). She was never particularly unhappy RFing - she didn't know there was another option. It's also easier to tighten her harness because of the design of the EFTA (when RFing the tightening handle is hard to turn). We live in a fairly crunchy area and even so, I was the last one to turn my kid.

I feel terribly guilty to having turned her for such pathetic reasons, yet I love that she can now look out the window and tell me "red car! bus!". So I am reluctant to turn her back again even though I know it's the best thing, safety wise.

We don't drive much, but I know this is moot given that most accidents happen near home etc.

So I am torn. What should I do?


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## KatWozBlue (Dec 21, 2009)

I think you need to let the guilt go, she is 22 months old, perfectly okay to have her ffing. Sure you wanted to leave her rfcing longer, but eventually they do get turned around and you don't need an excuse to do it, you don't need to justify your decision to anyone including yourself.

Enjoy your trip, you left her rfacing a lot longer than most people and just relinquish the guilt!


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Well, at 22 months FF is safe, but RF is much safeR. I wouldn't FF a 1 year old for any reason


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## redvlagrl (Dec 2, 2009)

Thanks, I feel better now. Ugh. I just can't bear to turn her back again (and doubt she would tolerate it now that she has seen the dark side).


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Try it, you might be surprised. I didn't think DD1 would go back RF'ing again, since she had been FF since 11.5 months. She never made a peep.


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## WindyCityMom (Aug 17, 2009)

My 2.5yo can see out the windows just fine rfing. We can also hand her stuff quite easily. I think you should reconsider.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

If you feel uneasy about it, you can switch her back RF'ing. You might be surprised at how she reacts. Some kids are more comfy RF'ing b/c they are more reclined.


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## TheGirls (Jan 8, 2007)

My RF 2yo regularly points out all the things she sees "mama, what a blue sign with yellow letters" "that's the video store baby" "oh" "mama, i see red car!!" "yeah, and do you see the green one?" "no, no, it white one!!" and so on for hours. Also I hand her stuff over the top of her seat. She knows to reach up if she wants it.

I have a mirror and she sees some stuff in that, or out the side window or out the rear windshield. She's quite upright in her seat, which helps.

I vote for get a mirror and install the seat at a 30 degree angle RF and see how it goes. I really do consider 2yo to be my absolute minimum for FF.


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## angelachristin (Apr 13, 2007)

my 3-1/2-year-old can see everything out the windows and he is RFing. All I ever hear is commentary on the other cars, the signs, etc. He knows where we are going too and if he sees us go a different way we hear all about it. I never have a problem handing him stuff either?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I'd flip her back. In a few years ff before 2 will be seen like ff before 1 is now.

No way I could live with the guilt if she were seriously injured because she was ff. Unlikely you'll have an accident, but could be deadly.

Dd was rf until 3.5 and I expect ds to be rf until at least 4.

-Angela


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

I would never FF my kid before 2, heck before 3 if I can help it. Right now 3 is my minimum and I'd like to get to 3 1/2 if possible.

Turn her back, her life is worth it.


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## Katie T (Nov 8, 2008)

I would turn her back around personally. I turned DS around when he turned 2yo because I didn't know any better and from the moment I did It I regretted it. So I researched it and then I "knew" why I had felt so uneasy. I flipped him back around less than a month later and he happily rear faced until he maxed out his seat by weight at 3 1/2yo. He didn't care that he was flipped rfing again and I felt much more at ease.


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## MyFullHouse (Apr 23, 2010)

Turn her back. She'll readjust.

A side funny- I turned ds around at about 2.5 (my back issues were making it nearly impossible to lift him up that high anymore). We live in a mountainous area. Going down hill scared the bejeezus out of him, lol! He adjusted, eventually.


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## mama_ani (Aug 2, 2007)

My son was turned FF at 2 - because that's as long as dh would keep him RF







Later we bought a new vehicle and put him RF, no protest at all.

Right now I'm freaking out about turning him FF and he's 4 years 5 months.







He has packed on the pounds this summer and is 37lbs now.


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## blessedwithboys (Dec 8, 2004)

I have an acquaintence who could care less about car safety, but when she had her 5th baby almost 2 yrs ago, I told her about the "new law" that says babies need to RF until age 2. He's still RF at 20mos. However, she's 37wks pg and will need to move him out of the bucket (he's very small weight-wise, so that's ok, but he is too tall, so this switch to FF is safer in his case) and into the FF harnessed seat her 4.5yo was using (4.5yo will go to a booster). I sort of consider it a small victory that I convinced a clueless person to RF past 12 mos.

In your case, you already knew better. If you are having guilt, it's because you know your child will be safer RFing. I think you should turn your LO back around. JMHO


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## ThisCat (Jun 19, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
In a few years ff before 2 will be seen like ff before 1 is now.

I'm not as optimistic that it will happen that soon if ever. I live in an area with lots of educated progressive parents. Babywearing is huge. Breastfeeding is the norm. Midwives and homebirth are all the rage. Parents have to go out of their way to get their sons circumcised at the hospital and it's explained that there's no medical reason to do it. But since becoming aware of the RF issue about four years ago, I only recall seeing one person RFing a child who was clearly over 12 months. It was a stranger in a parking lot. I don't personally know anyone who does it. I often get double takes when I'm taking my son in and out of the car and occasionally people even ask why he's still RF or inform me he can be FF now. My kid's pediatrician said nada about it at his one year visit. Since the new AAP recommendation, I was hoping he or the nurse might start mentioning something about it.

Anyway, OP, I can see both sides to some extent. On one hand, yeah, FF rocks. I love being able to see my oldest and that she can see me and that we have the same view. Makes "I spy" much easier.








And while it's still possible to hand stuff to a kid who is RF (do it all the time with my son), it is easier when they're FF. And putting a toddler in a RF seat and tightening it can be a PITA in some seats (like the one I have of course







). Honestly that issue alone has gotten me daydreaming about turning my son FF.







However, I don't think those are good enough reasons to actually turn a kid FF. It's so much safer to RF, and your LO is still very fragile. And she's voiced no complaints about RF and hasn't outgrown her seat RF. I'd turn her back.


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## justKate (Jun 10, 2008)

Well since you're torn, I'd turn her back. She'll get over it, you'll feel better, and you can reevaluate at 24, 30 months, or whatever you decide. I look at it like breastfeeding. One day at a time; the longer the better. Of course you made it further than most, so, like breastfeeding, if it's time for you to stop, you can't beat yourself up too much.


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

I'd flip her back too - she probalby won't care. DS1 rode FF from 15-29 months when I turned him back around right before ds2 was born (or maybe right after. Somewhere in there!)... he's still RFing in my car, at 41 months and doing so happily. Though DH does have him FF in his car 'so he can see him' - but as he's hardly ever in there, it doesn't bug me too much.







I plan on keeping him RFing till 4 and then flipping him around. We'll see though


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## purplepaperclip (May 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessedwithboys* 
I told her about the "new law" that says babies need to RF until age 2.

Is there an actual law where you live or do the quotes mean you lied?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## vrclay (Jun 12, 2007)

Haha - I thought you were talking about formula feeding (FF) especially with all the breastfeeding info for awareness week.

I wanted to share that my 40ish lb 35month old would love to be RFing if I could get the Radian seat installed in my Prius. He wants to be like his little brother. Kids can surprise you.

The one thing that is always true about being a mama - trust your instincts, even when others don't. If you are uneasy about her being forward facing, then turn her back.


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## Megan73 (May 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThisCat* 
I'm not as optimistic that it will happen that soon if ever. I live in an area with lots of educated progressive parents. Babywearing is huge. Breastfeeding is the norm. Midwives and homebirth are all the rage. Parents have to go out of their way to get their sons circumcised at the hospital and it's explained that there's no medical reason to do it. But since becoming aware of the RF issue about four years ago, I only recall seeing one person RFing a child who was clearly over 12 months.

Yup. Same here.


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## jeminijad (Mar 27, 2009)

I think it will be a decade before laws are changed to prohibit FF before 2.

But _you_ know better- flip her back.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purplepaperclip* 
Is there an actual law where you live or do the quotes mean you lied?

There is no law anywhere in the US requiring RF until age 2.

(Many states do have proper use clauses, however, requiring seats to be used in accordance with manufacturer specifications. If this child is still small enough to fit in an infant bucket, it's *possible* that he's below the weight and/or height minimums of certain seats to forward-face, so *this* child may have legally needed to stay rear-facing. But there is no law anywhere requiring RFing to age 2. And I think we advocates lose lots of credibility when we say things that aren't verifiably true.)


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## just_lily (Feb 29, 2008)

If you *knew* you were going to be in an accident the next time she is in the car, what would you do?


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## Katie T (Nov 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *just_lily* 
If you *knew* you were going to be in an accident the next time she is in the car, what would you do?

Very good question!


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

I have to say, I am having this guilt with a much younger child. My DD is 17mo, big for her age. She gets so miserable car sick that I turned her FF just to see if SOMETHING would help. Poor girl would barf up her entire stomach contents (even if it was just BF) whenever we drove more than 20 min. Now I know why she hated the infant seat so much....her poor tummy







.

She's only been that way two weeks and we've been all over the place and I can tell she feels much better. But I am still contemplating turning her back.


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## redvlagrl (Dec 2, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *just_lily* 
If you *knew* you were going to be in an accident the next time she is in the car, what would you do?

Great point. I think I will switch it back and see what happens. I knew I should never have done it in the first place.


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## donutmolly (Jun 9, 2005)

I've turned my Dd2 to FF and back to RFing a couple of times... she was totally fine about it.

She's now FFing permanently because of the logistics of fitting 3 carseats in our little car + no cheap carseats with RFing weight limits higher than 35lbs... but I wish that I could RF her for much longer!


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## St. Margaret (May 19, 2006)

We had to do FF before for a long drive, special circumstances in the car, DD was over 2-- she was fine going back. The only time she complained was the one time RFing on a plane, but that's a totally different sensation.


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## syd'smom (Sep 23, 2008)

My dd always hated her bucket; she was tiny but people still recommended turning her ffing at 10mos.







She was 18lbs at 18mos. Anyway, we took her out of the infant seat, put her in a radian rearfacing, and she has been happy as a clam ever since. Sometimes older kids don't like the recline of the bucket, so going to a more upright install of a rfing convertible is a great option. DD will be 4 in December and she is still rfing.







And in our van, it is much easier to pass things to her rfing than ffing for sure!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *InMediasRes* 







I have to say, I am having this guilt with a much younger child. My DD is 17mo, big for her age. She gets so miserable car sick that I turned her FF just to see if SOMETHING would help. Poor girl would barf up her entire stomach contents (even if it was just BF) whenever we drove more than 20 min. Now I know why she hated the infant seat so much....her poor tummy







.

She's only been that way two weeks and we've been all over the place and I can tell she feels much better. But I am still contemplating turning her back.


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## blessedwithboys (Dec 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purplepaperclip* 
Is there an actual law where you live or do the quotes mean you lied?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
There is no law anywhere in the US requiring RF until age 2.

(Many states do have proper use clauses, however, requiring seats to be used in accordance with manufacturer specifications. If this child is still small enough to fit in an infant bucket, it's *possible* that he's below the weight and/or height minimums of certain seats to forward-face, so *this* child may have legally needed to stay rear-facing. But there is no law anywhere requiring RFing to age 2. And I think we advocates lose lots of credibility when we say things that aren't verifiably true.)

Settle down people! If I say "Hey, did you know babies are supposed to stay RFing for at least 24 mos now?" and someone chooses to interpret that as being a new law, that doesn't mean I lied.


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## jeminijad (Mar 27, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessedwithboys* 
Settle down people! If I say "Hey, did you know babies are supposed to stay RFing for at least 24 mos now?" and someone chooses to interpret that as being a new law, that doesn't mean I lied.

What you said in your first post was 'new law.' Not, 'they are supposed to.' If you said the word law, and the mom went and looked it up, you've blown your credibility, and by extension, damaged that of other safety advocates.

If it was actually more like the second post, then I applaud it.


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## purplepaperclip (May 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessedwithboys* 
Settle down people! If I say "Hey, did you know babies are supposed to stay RFing for at least 24 mos now?" and someone chooses to interpret that as being a new law, that doesn't mean I lied.

So you didn't use the words "new law" nor imply it was a law? I'm all for rfing, but not lying to get people to do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *syd'smom* 
My dd always hated her bucket; she was tiny but people still recommended turning her ffing at 10mos.







She was 18lbs at 18mos. Anyway, we took her out of the infant seat, put her in a radian rearfacing, and she has been happy as a clam ever since. Sometimes older kids don't like the recline of the bucket, so going to a more upright install of a rfing convertible is a great option. DD will be 4 in December and she is still rfing.







And in our van, it is much easier to pass things to her rfing than ffing for sure!









She is currently in a convertible. Her seat maxes RF at 30lbs, she's getting close to hitting the limit anyhow.


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## blessedwithboys (Dec 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeminijad* 
What you said in your first post was 'new law.' Not, 'they are supposed to.' If you said the word law, and the mom went and looked it up, you've blown your credibility, and by extension, damaged that of other safety advocates.

If it was actually more like the second post, then I applaud it.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *purplepaperclip* 
So you didn't use the words "new law" nor imply it was a law? I'm all for rfing, but not lying to get people to do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

Well, I feel a little silly justifying and explaining myself, but if you knew this person, you'd understand. She is not the type to do any research, but she'll do what others tell her if she thinks that person did all the work for her. So I told her that the minimum guidelines had changed from 12mos/20# to 24mos and the limit of the seat.

If she wants to think it's the law, I'm not going to say a word, or that baby will be FFing so fast his neck will snap from the force of that alone, never mind an accident!

So...my exdh thinks my 8yo ds is too old to use a LBB. I told him the law requires a booster until the child weighs 100#, plus a shoulder belt and a headrest. Call me bad for the cause, I don't care! If he's dumb enough to listen to me and not find out for himself, I couldn't care less. At least now I know he's scared enough of getting a ticket that ds travels safely. If I said, "Exdh, please do what's best for your son" he would do the opposite just to show I don't control him, Big Man that he is. If I say "Do it or you'll get a ticket", he does it, my son is safe, and I am happy. End of story.


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## hollytheteacher (Mar 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *redvlagrl* 
I've always been a huge proponent of ERFing. I've posted vids on my facebook page etc. Our plan was to RF DD until he maxed out her seat that fit in our car (Evenflo Triumph Advance).

When our new baby came along we bought a seat that allowed us to keep her RFing (we have a small car).

DD is now 22 mths and we switched her FFing 2 weeks ago. We went on a road trip which we had to do in one day and we wanted to be able to drive on the baby's schedule, not her's. I'm explaining/justifying it badly but basically we wanted to be able to hand her things more easily and hoped that she would be more entertained in the car (being able to see out the window etc). She was never particularly unhappy RFing - she didn't know there was another option. It's also easier to tighten her harness because of the design of the EFTA (when RFing the tightening handle is hard to turn). We live in a fairly crunchy area and even so, I was the last one to turn my kid.

I feel terribly guilty to having turned her for such pathetic reasons, yet I love that she can now look out the window and tell me "red car! bus!". So I am reluctant to turn her back again even though I know it's the best thing, safety wise.

We don't drive much, but I know this is moot given that most accidents happen near home etc.

So I am torn. What should I do?

Our story was pretty similar!! When ds was 27 months we turned him ff because we were on a trip (washington d.c.) and it was just easier in cabs and stuff. He was only 1 or 2 pounds away from needed to be FF anyway so we decided to just let him stay FF from that point on when we got home. He is really happy about it, we are happy about it and we still make sure he is very safe in there (proper chest clip placement, tight straps etc.). I get worried about other children his same age who are in BOOSTERS! Yep! I know a lot of people who put 3 year olds in backless boosters.


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## nia82 (May 6, 2008)

I'd flip her back to RF. I think she should be fine...
DS hates forward facing (he was for 4 weeks in Germany, my parents borrowed a Maxi Cosi Priori and there is no RF possible), horrible car rides. He is super happy RFing. I have been living in Wyoming now for 15 months and only saw one other over 12 months old RFing. I saw many infant buckets FFing. It's very sad. Very small babies, sometimes only the chest belt buckled, not the lower anchors at all.


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## MissE (May 12, 2007)

Do y'all only have on child or are there mamas with two or more kids? DD would NOT go in ther RF seat anymore without throwing a major fit (that was abuot two months ago, she's now 2 years old). She saw her brother's seat (who's FF at 3.5 years) and wanted to go in "Adi's seat, Adi's seat" So I turned her forward and she was happy. The only thing now is that she keeps losing her toys as they fall down instead of being held in place by the back of the carseat.


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## mama_ani (Aug 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissE* 
Do y'all only have on child or are there mamas with two or more kids? DD would NOT go in ther RF seat anymore without throwing a major fit (that was abuot two months ago, she's now 2 years old). She saw her brother's seat (who's FF at 3.5 years) and wanted to go in "Adi's seat, Adi's seat" So I turned her forward and she was happy. The only thing now is that she keeps losing her toys as they fall down instead of being held in place by the back of the carseat.

My youngest two of five are the only ones in seats but ds (4) will probably turn FF soon. Dd's (2) reaction to him turning FF will not have any bearing at all on when she is turned FF. None. To me, what a 2yo wants vs what I believe is safest isn't even a consideration.


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## syd'smom (Sep 23, 2008)

My dd will be 4 in Dec and she is still rfing. She knows her other friends forward face and asked about it, but we just told her that this is safest for her - end of discussion.

(She also wanted to sit in the front w/ mommy and daddy, and we didn't let her do that either.







)


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## MissE (May 12, 2007)

So you'd rather take a hyperventilating, vomiting 2 year old instead?


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## mama_ani (Aug 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissE* 
So you'd rather take a hyperventilating, vomiting 2 year old instead?

Would I like to? No. Would I and have I? Yes. It's awful, it sucks. This too shall pass.


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## MissE (May 12, 2007)

Hmm...pick your battles is my motto.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

I can't think of a battle more worth picking


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissE* 
Do y'all only have on child or are there mamas with two or more kids? DD would NOT go in ther RF seat anymore without throwing a major fit (that was abuot two months ago, she's now 2 years old). She saw her brother's seat (who's FF at 3.5 years) and wanted to go in "Adi's seat, Adi's seat" So I turned her forward and she was happy. The only thing now is that she keeps losing her toys as they fall down instead of being held in place by the back of the carseat.

My just turned 3yo wants to ride in his brothers booster. No way that is happening, no matter how much he wants to.


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## BabyMae09 (Sep 19, 2008)

Wow I feel like a really bad Mama now. My DD is 14.5 months, and has been front facing for about 8 months now. She screamed bloodly murder until we turned her.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BabyMae09* 
Wow I feel like a really bad Mama now. My DD is 14.5 months, and has been front facing for about 8 months now. She screamed bloodly murder until we turned her.


since she was 6 months?! Can you turn her back rear-facing tomorrow? 14 months is still really young to be forward-facing.


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## BabyMae09 (Sep 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
I can't think of a battle more worth picking









I can think of a few dozen....


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BabyMae09* 
I can think of a few dozen....

None that would be more likely to save a child's life & well being.


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## BabyMae09 (Sep 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 
since she was 6 months?! Can you turn her back rear-facing tomorrow? 14 months is still really young to be forward-facing.

Not really. You'd have to know my daughter... she is STUBBORN. I think the term 'high needs' fits her pretty well







DP and I decided a long time ago that it was safer for everyone in the car if we didn't have to listen to a screaming baby while driving. Have to consider the safety of all of us....


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## BabyMae09 (Sep 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
None that would be more likely to save a child's life & well being.

hmmm....

1. un-needed c-setions and other interventions

2. potentially harmful vax

3. circumcision - not only affects the baby, but all his possible future children, his wife, etc.

4. unsafe co-sleeping

5. unsafe baby-wearing

etc, etc.

Sometimes I like to play the devil's advocate, just to remind people that there ARE other, valid opinions out there


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BabyMae09* 
hmmm....

1. un-needed c-setions and other interventions

2. potentially harmful vax

3. circumcision - not only affects the baby, but all his possible future children, his wife, etc.

4. unsafe co-sleeping

5. unsafe baby-wearing

etc, etc.

Sometimes I like to play the devil's advocate, just to remind people that there ARE other, valid opinions out there









Those are all legitamate arguments, yes, but none are of those are as dangerous (statistically) as early FF


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## BabyMae09 (Sep 19, 2008)

Hmm, well I just did some more research, and there's a lot that I didn't know. I was basing my FF on what I did with my son. But he's 8.5 now, so things were a lot different 'way back then!'

I don't know if I'll turn DD around or not (due to her personality - I'll at least try it), but I'll definitely leave any future children FF until age two


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## BabyMae09 (Sep 19, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Those are all legitamate arguments, yes, but none are of those are as dangerous (statistically) as early FF









Well, except maybe the c-section and circumcision. But I get your point


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BabyMae09* 
Not really. You'd have to know my daughter... she is STUBBORN. I think the term 'high needs' fits her pretty well







DP and I decided a long time ago that it was safer for everyone in the car if we didn't have to listen to a screaming baby while driving. Have to consider the safety of all of us....

I hear you on the stubborn child thing-my middle child is very much like her mama in that respect







but she RF'd until 3. Normally I would have RF'd longer, but I gave in and turned her. RF is STILL safer than FF with screaming, as hard as it is to deal with (and like I said earlier, 2 of my 3 were/are screamers).


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BabyMae09* 
Well, except maybe the c-section and circumcision. But I get your point









Both are less likely to cause (severe) injury and death







. I agree with you, though, and all the points you listed in the above points are one that I, too, argue, but they are just not even in the same realm. Car crashes are the leading cause of death for people under the age of 14, and ERF is paramount in reducing those deaths.


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## redpajama (Jan 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissE* 
Do y'all only have on child or are there mamas with two or more kids? DD would NOT go in ther RF seat anymore without throwing a major fit (that was abuot two months ago, she's now 2 years old). She saw her brother's seat (who's FF at 3.5 years) and wanted to go in "Adi's seat, Adi's seat" So I turned her forward and she was happy. The only thing now is that she keeps losing her toys as they fall down instead of being held in place by the back of the carseat.

I have 3 kids: a 5.5-year-old (FF Radian), a 3.75-year-old (RF Radian XTSL), and an 11-month-old (RF Radian). I found that, before the baby was born, having my son and daughter side-by-side, one RF and one FF, worked really well. They could see each other, talk to each other, et cetera. Since the baby was born a year ago, we've alternated between having my son's FF seat between the two RF girls, and having his seat in the 3rd row of our van.

My almost-4-year-old has begun to express some discontent with her RF riding position. And I agree that many things will become "easier" once she's FF. She asks to ride in her brother's seat a lot, and if he's not in the car (while he's at school, for example), I let her. She is better able to see things outside the car, it's easier to have a conversation with her, et cetera.

The bottom line, though, is that she's safest RF even if she's most pleased FF. I have to enforce all sorts of "better, but less fun" standards with my kids--I don't let them drink sugary drinks, they can't get in my parents' pool without an adult watching, they don't get to watch TV or play video games at home, et cetera. I mean, really, my kids would probably be *happiest* if they weren't restrained at all; they might rather ride on the roof of the van, playing video games and drinking Dr. Pepper. =)


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## mama2soren (Feb 12, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BabyMae09* 
hmmm....

1. un-needed c-setions and other interventions

2. potentially harmful vax

3. circumcision - not only affects the baby, but all his possible future children, his wife, etc.

4. unsafe co-sleeping

5. unsafe baby-wearing

etc, etc.

Sometimes I like to play the devil's advocate, just to remind people that there ARE other, valid opinions out there









These are all issues that I am passionate about too. But, none of them are NEARLY as potentially deadly as being improperly restrained in the car. Car crashes kill more children each year than anything else. It is imperative that parents know the risks of FF at an early age and the safety benefits of RF past the traditional 1 year/20 pounds.

If someone FF their 3 year old, I suppose I would consider that a valid choice, even though I'm intending to RF my child past 3 years. But, IMO (and in the opinion of virtually anyone who understands crash physics and the anatomy of a baby's neck and spine), FF an infant is NEVER a valid option. That is an extremely dangerous (not to mention illegal) choice. In a bad frontal or side-impact crash, a FF 6 month old would almost definitely be seriously injured or killed. And a 1 year old is much more likely to be severely injured or killed when FF than RF.


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## mama2soren (Feb 12, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *redpajama* 

The bottom line, though, is that she's safest RF even if she's most pleased FF. I have in enforce all sorts of "better, but less fun" standards with my kids--I don't let them drink sugary drinks, they can't get in my parents' pool without an adult watching, they don't get to watch TV or play video games at home, et cetera. I mean, really, my kids would probably be *happiest* if they weren't restrained at all; they might rather ride on the roof of the van, playing video games and drinking Dr. Pepper. =)


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## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissE* 
Do y'all only have on child or are there mamas with two or more kids? DD would NOT go in ther RF seat anymore without throwing a major fit (that was abuot two months ago, she's now 2 years old). She saw her brother's seat (who's FF at 3.5 years) and wanted to go in "Adi's seat, Adi's seat" So I turned her forward and she was happy. The only thing now is that she keeps losing her toys as they fall down instead of being held in place by the back of the carseat.

My son will be four at the end of August and he has one friend his age who is still rearfacing and every other kid his age that we know is forward facing at best, some are in boosters (even though the law here is minimum 4 years and 40lbs for boostering). I don't understand why this would make the decision for you at all. I ride forward facing obviously, as do the other adults in the car as well as the older kids we ride with. That isn't a good enough reason for a kid who can be safely rearfacing and gain significant safety protection from it not to do so.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissE* 
So you'd rather take a hyperventilating, vomiting 2 year old instead?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama_ani* 
Would I like to? No. Would I and have I? Yes. It's awful, it sucks. This too shall pass.

I agree with the above response to your question.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
I can't think of a battle more worth picking









Agreed! The differences in safety we are talking about here aren't small and I am a Mama who wears her velcro babies, nurses on demand, cosleeps and in general does whatever I can to make sure my small people are not crying unnecessarily. I hate hearing my kids cry but after limiting car trips and making the ones we do take as pleasant for them as I can with them in their rearfacing seats I'd rather having a crying baby than a dead one when I could have prevented it easily.


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## MissE (May 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BabyMae09* 
hmmm....

1. un-needed c-setions and other interventions

2. potentially harmful vax

3. circumcision - not only affects the baby, but all his possible future children, his wife, etc.

4. unsafe co-sleeping

5. unsafe baby-wearing

etc, etc.

Sometimes I like to play the devil's advocate, just to remind people that there ARE other, valid opinions out there










Thank you. As far as I know, even forward facing seats save lives.


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## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissE* 
Thank you. As far as I know, even forward facing seats save lives.

Forward facing seats for children who are old enough and have the physical bone and muscle maturity to be in them absolutely do save lives when properly used and installed.

Just using any seat regardless of the age or weight or maturity of the child is not good enough to save lives, just as installing them improperly isn't good enough to save lives. A booster seat is an incredibly safe choice for a child who fits in it and is mature enough to sit in it... used with a lapbelt alone it can be deadly and do more harm than good. That is true for any seat... they aren't safe just by virtue of being there.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Try it, you might be surprised. I didn't think DD1 would go back RF'ing again, since she had been FF since 11.5 months. She never made a peep.

yeah ds2 ffin his dads car and rf in my car without any issues
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

I would like to remind everyone that the Family Safety Guidelines indicate

Quote:

We ask that threads focus on safety information gathering, education, advocacy and sharing of personal experience rather than critiques of individuals or venting about others. Insulting, belittling or condemning others is neither productive nor appropriate. While we understand that it can be difficult to watch others make choices that are not in line with your own, the focus of this forum is on "safety."
This issues are difficult, because many of us feel so passionate about the importance of rear-facing, but I ask everyone to be respectful as we continue this discussion.

Many thanks!


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## MissE (May 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *triscuitsmom* 
Forward facing seats for children who are old enough and have the physical bone and muscle maturity to be in them absolutely do save lives when properly used and installed.

Just using any seat regardless of the age or weight or maturity of the child is not good enough to save lives, just as installing them improperly isn't good enough to save lives. A booster seat is an incredibly safe choice for a child who fits in it and is mature enough to sit in it... used with a lapbelt alone it can be deadly and do more harm than good. That is true for any seat... they aren't safe just by virtue of being there.

Both my kids are in appropriate seats with 5pt harnesses just forward facing, also both seats are appropriately installed and checked. As far as I know I'm not doing anything wrong. DS was turned around when he hit the max weight limit for his carseat (it was 30lbs back then) and DD I turned around at 22 months (and 31lbs). Some people might already consider that extented, I know that is not the case here. I did what I thought (and still think) is the right decision.


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## ivymae (Nov 22, 2005)

We turned DD2 forward facing for a trip (1000 miles in two days, by myself with two kids under 3...) and then turned her back around when we got home. She was grumpy about it, but hey, she's 2, she's grumpy anyway.


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