# Gentle vs Permissive



## mandalin24kd (Dec 31, 2007)

Someone tell me when gentle turns to permissive. And why do permissive parents think it's okay to let their kids hurt other children. And where are the boundaries. Every child, every PERSON, needs boundaries, even in genlte parenting.
How do you tell someone that there permissive parenting of their child is not something you want your child to be victim of?


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

I think permissive parenting is a form of abuse.

Gentle parenting is kind direction and guidance. Permissive parenting is an absence of anything. Sure, maybe you aren't hitting your kids, but you aren't doing them any great service, either.

I don't think gentle discipline 'slides into' permissive parenting. They are two very different things.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mandalin24kd* 
Someone tell me when gentle turns to permissive. And why do permissive parents think it's okay to let their kids hurt other children. And where are the boundaries. Every child, every PERSON, needs boundaries, even in genlte parenting.
How do you tell someone that there permissive parenting of their child is not something you want your child to be victim of?

"I'm sorry, I don't feel my child is safe around yours. Goodbye."


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## greeny (Apr 27, 2007)

Quote:

I don't think gentle discipline 'slides into' permissive parenting.
Not necessarily, but sometimes I think parents who want to be gentle don't know how to set boundaries because they're so afraid of being not-gentle.


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## mamadebug (Dec 28, 2006)

Permissive vs Gentle is something I have been trying to sort out lately. I have a really strong willed three year old little guy. I do offer guidance and direction - but he often doesn't respond the way I hope he will. I was worried about being overly forceful/not gentle. So, even though I would talk with him and tried to suggest things, he wouldn't take my suggestions and I wasn't sure how to follow through. I thought I was being gentle, but the reality is I was being permissive at times. I recently talked with someone about this because 3 has been really hard! What I learned is that he isn't a "parent pleaser" - some kids are and some kids aren't. Certainly there is no place for spanking, yelling, shaming, etc. But, it is OK to be firm and have consequences. Some kids respond to it while some kids you just have to talk to. For me, the distinction between permissive and gentle has been hard to figure out - especially if you don't come from this type of background!


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## mandalin24kd (Dec 31, 2007)

Okay! So I'm not crazy! Permissive parenting, for a lack of better words, SUCKS!
When her 4 yo son kicked me 22 month old dd in the face for the 4th time cause he wanted to sit next to me, and when (in a public resturant) started spitting in others food, was grabbing handful of food out of everyones plates, was throwing things at the poor people behind us, started rubbing my boobs, pushing my 22 mo in the face while digging his fingers into her eyes and decided that salt and hot sauce needed to be poured all over other peoples food, while yelling at the waitress that she better come back now, standing/sitting on the table ledge and ripping down decorative christmas lights, all the time she's just keeps saying "I don't think the resturant people will like that" and " I don't THINK she likes you pushing her" and that was it............... I was completely justified being disgusted and wanted to scream and throttle them both, right?

Or maybe I am crazy.........


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## neveryoumindthere (Mar 21, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greeny* 
Not necessarily, but sometimes I think parents who want to be gentle don't know how to set boundaries because they're so afraid of being not-gentle.

Yes. This.
I feel I've slipped in some ways. Not sure how to get back on track.


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## mandalin24kd (Dec 31, 2007)

Mamadebug-
Kids look to us to set boundaries because they don't know where the invisible lines are. And I don't think being "forceful" is the opposite of gentle. I think sometimes, for their own safety and well being (and others) you have to put that wall in front of them and say "i'm really sorry, but this is absolutely not okay and this is why and this is the consequences that WILL (always follow through) happen". And that's not a threat, it's a fact. Be consistent, follow through and give real consequences, all with out be physical, and I think that is truly how to gives healthy gentle discipline.
Kids are smart, but they don't have the experience to rationalize the things the do all the time. That's our job to show them and instill in them the capability to distinguish these things for themselves.
I think that falls into gentle discipline.


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## lemonbar (Apr 14, 2008)

So what is GD? I thought we were GD. No spanking, belittling. Yes to positive motivation. But it is tough. It seems inevitably, there will be conflicts, dissagreements, and times you need to teach your kids about appropriate behavior (such as in a restaurant) - and then you must "pull rank" (ie be the parent) and demand behavior and impose a consequence if it does not occur. Given your fair about it, is that GD?


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## DaytonsMom (Aug 25, 2007)

I've also been having a hard time with this issue. reading this thread has been helpful though. thanks. ds is very challenging (sp?) but at only 13 months it's hard to know exacly what to say or do. I'll be looking in on this section a lot! Thanks. good to know that others have the same issues and that i'm not alone.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mandalin24kd* 
Okay! So I'm not crazy! Permissive parenting, for a lack of better words, SUCKS!
When her 4 yo son kicked me 22 month old dd in the face for the 4th time cause he wanted to sit next to me, and when (in a public resturant) started spitting in others food, was grabbing handful of food out of everyones plates, was throwing things at the poor people behind us, started rubbing my boobs, pushing my 22 mo in the face while digging his fingers into her eyes and decided that salt and hot sauce needed to be poured all over other peoples food, while yelling at the waitress that she better come back now, standing/sitting on the table ledge and ripping down decorative christmas lights, all the time she's just keeps saying "I don't think the resturant people will like that" and " I don't THINK she likes you pushing her" and that was it............... I was completely justified being disgusted and wanted to scream and throttle them both, right?

Or maybe I am crazy.........

 You aren't crazy for feeling frustrated in this situation.









Mom probably had the right idea... the right intention. She just wasn't fully there in her response it seems. In a public place like a restaurant we have to consider the needs, comfort, and safety of our child and the people around us that share the space. And it can be a tricky balance that we sometimes dork up. (Or I did anyway, when mine were wee.)

It sounds like the child was overwhelmed or a bit hyperstimulated. My son had this problem often when he was younger. As a mom if I was faced with that situation I would have probably said the same things she said more or less, but I also would have redirected, offered alternative activities, discussed the personal space issue and safety issues involved in hitting/kicking a toddler, named what I was seeing from the child (_"I see you are wanting to be active. Do you want to go outside or walk to the restroom with me?"_)

Even with all of that there's no guarantee it would have fixed anything, and if the child was too overwhelmed to function or respond in a productive way I would remove the child from the area. Especially if we need to stop some violence from happening (the repeated kicking the baby in the face thing.) Leaving a kid in that space in that mode is just setting him up for failure IMO.

In a nutshell, mom sounds like she tried but wasn't fully engaged. Those situations can be so so draining for everyone involved. Let's just say there's a reason we ate at home, the park, or McDonald's playplace for a long freakin time.


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## hempmama (Dec 16, 2004)

We have in the past had a really really hard time with this. I am a pretty hard core GD parent, but I know some of the permissive parents we know (and we know a lot, it's that kind of crunchy area, people get on the bandwagon with no idea what they are doing) consider me super strict, what with my having personal boundaries and all. I've noticed one thing that leads to this is the analysis of the reason behind every single thing their kid does. Which is on the one hand fine- it's good to get at the root of antisocial behaviors- but you get these parents who worship their kids justifying their every bite and toy theft because "Johnny's still upset the music teacher picked another kid's song to sing." Uh, ok, but let's hold up for a second and imagine the nuclear war you'd set off if my kid touched a hair on yours' head, eh?

Sometimes when I'm feeling ornery I try to push things a little, after a hit- "How are you teaching him to deal with that productively? He seems physical, right- I've tried teaching my DS to stomp if he wants to physically get out frustration. What are you guys trying lately?" Generally this flies right over heads, and I get unwanted assvice from someone who doesn't know what they are doing. But I feel a little better, in my passive aggressive way. We end up pulling back, usually. Not much to be done most of the time.


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## mandalin24kd (Dec 31, 2007)

The more I think about it, I know adult products of permissive parenting, and they themselves will say that they have issue after issue that they just can't deal with. Many of them struggle to keep relationships and jobs.
Children will follow your example, yes, but if all you show them is being walked all over, they will assume they can walk over anyone.
And there is a reason I don't physically punish my kids! Why the hell would I want your kid doing it to my kid.
Your child is HURTING another person, you remove them immediately and you say that is not okay to hit someone and then you talk to them, maybe see why they are doing it. But trying to rationalize with a 4 year old is like saying Paris Hilton could be a virgin. It doesn't exsist. The aren't emotionally or cognitively able to cope with that skill yet.
I officially hate permissive parenting. This has had me mad all day.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mandalin24kd* 
Okay! So I'm not crazy! Permissive parenting, for a lack of better words, SUCKS!
When her 4 yo son kicked me 22 month old dd in the face for the 4th time cause he wanted to sit next to me, and when (in a public resturant) started spitting in others food, was grabbing handful of food out of everyones plates, was throwing things at the poor people behind us, started rubbing my boobs, pushing my 22 mo in the face while digging his fingers into her eyes and decided that salt and hot sauce needed to be poured all over other peoples food, while yelling at the waitress that she better come back now, standing/sitting on the table ledge and ripping down decorative christmas lights, all the time she's just keeps saying "I don't think the resturant people will like that" and " I don't THINK she likes you pushing her" and that was it............... I was completely justified being disgusted and wanted to scream and throttle them both, right?









No you weren't because you should've walked out of there well before it got to the point that you were that frustrated. By the second time her son kicked your daughter in the face you should've been saying "clearly today's not a good day for him, I think we'd better just give up, good bye!"







:


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## lunar forest (Feb 20, 2003)

just to answer one of the original questions real quick: The important boundaries are that it's not ok for anyone to _*impose their autonomy onto someone else.*_ Hitting does this, so does forcing, manipulating, getting up in someone elses business, etc. It's amazing that very little children struggle with this, but yet some people never learn that it's not ok and they continue to do it throughout their lives and even think these are good parenting techniques.


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## Cujobunny (Aug 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
It sounds like the child was overwhelmed or a bit hyperstimulated.

I think a key point of my GD philosophy is always trying to understand the reason behind the behaviour and looking to fix that. It does sound like the child was overstimulated and if I was his mother, we wouldn't have been staying at the restaurant. However, if I were with them, I wouldn't have stayed either. There have been times where we have been on a play date and I would have loved to stay and talk to the mom, but the kids just aren't getting along, so we have to cut it short. I'm not just all about my happiness and comfort, my dc happiness and comfort matters too. Kids aren't always able to tell us what they are feeling and so they act it instead.


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## earthy_mama (Oct 28, 2005)

Wow. I'm really struggling with this too right now, and the more I read, the more I feel like I'm permissive... not GD. I'm feeling very frustrated!

I think where I'm having difficulty is in determining what consequences to use to send an appropriate message & when to use them. I'd love to hear examples.

I have so many questions and ideas rushing to my head right now that rather than hijacking this post I'm going to start my own! Will be checking back here too...


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## gwynthfair (Mar 17, 2006)

I struggle with this as well. I have a very high energy, high needs toddler who is always climbing on and getting into everything. It's hard to know how to enforce boundaries with a toddler, because most of the parenting books I have read are about talking to kids and explaining, etc. But not much help for toddlers who are largely pre-verbal.


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## lunar forest (Feb 20, 2003)

but pre-verbal kids still understand what you say. I think nice short explainations of the whys and hows are still vital for toddlers.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Yeah, I have a really hard time understanding parents who allow their children to hit or hurt others. And I know that parents can't always enforce their will, but there needs to be a response to hitting that show VERY clearly that it is NOT ok. And if said child continues to hurt someone, they need to be removed from the situation. Not as punishment, but more as "I can see that you can't control the impulse, so I'm going to take away the temptation" in order to keep others safe.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mandalin24kd* 
I think sometimes, for their own safety and well being (and others) you have to put that wall in front of them and say "i'm really sorry, but this is absolutely not okay and this is why and this is the consequences that WILL (always follow through) happen". And that's not a threat, it's a fact. Be consistent, follow through and give real consequences, all with out be physical, and I think that is truly how to gives healthy gentle discipline.

Healthy gentle discipline doesn't need to contain imposed consequences. You don't need consequences in order to set very clear boundaries.

My main guiding principle is Harm None. That's what my boundaries are based on, and the ones that I set up for ds. For us, it doesn't take consequences to make it clear that hitting is very much not acceptable. yk?
I also include in "harm none" some behavior that is disturbing others, or damaging property, etc.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lunar forest* 
but pre-verbal kids still understand what you say. I think nice short explainations of the whys and hows are still vital for toddlers.

Isn't the difference between a toddler and an older child that with a toddler you give the explanation *while* physically helping them control their behavior and with an older child you generally give a bit of the explanation first?


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## lunar forest (Feb 20, 2003)

well yes, I'd do more than JUST explaining to a toddler when needed. Also lots of redirecting, distracting, and physical intervention (because their impulse control is so low) but done *with* an explanation. But plenty of times simply talking to the child about it is enough. Depending on the situation and the child.

I still do all of this with my 6yo, though. I think the biggest difference is that toddlers are much more easily distracted and persuaded.


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## mandalin24kd (Dec 31, 2007)

I don't believe for one mintue that a baby or toddler understands everything we say to them. I remember being smal (3 & 4) and not grasping what was being said to me.
They are learning, they don't just know. If they already "understood" what we said to them, there would be very little reason to parent.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I know that for me the fear of permissiveness did not help me become the parent I want to be.

For me it meant moving away from that way of thinking about parenting at all. Into thinking about creating a non-transactional relationship (I just made up that phrase) with them.

I think what the restaurant poster is describing is inattentive, not real interactions with the kid. The kid kept doing outrageous stuff, but the mom never responded with attention to it's outrageousness....didn't look to see what was underlying it. (Hyperstimulated, tired, regressing, jealous, needed to get out and be active, coming down with an illness.....)

I think the gentle vs. permissive question obscures that with a behaviorist eye. I think the mom here failed to show compassion for the little person being kicked in the face, the people whose food was being ruined, the people in the restautant *and* the little kid trying to communicate his needs.

So, I think it's a failure of attention, rather than permissiveness. In my own experience, gentle parenting is the opposite of inattentive parenting.


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## mandalin24kd (Dec 31, 2007)

I wanted to add, YES, I should have gotten up and left. And I didn't. My bad! I don't know this person well, and I was shocked that these things were happening and at this point, as pregnant as I am, my train of thought was jumping back and forth asking myself whether or not I would be justified in reacting. By reacting I mean, saying something or leaving. Both are reactions.
But, yes, in hind sight, I should have left.


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## lunar forest (Feb 20, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mandalin24kd* 
I don't believe for one mintue that a baby or toddler understands everything we say to them. I remember being smal (3 & 4) and not grasping what was being said to me.
They are learning, they don't just know. If they already "understood" what we said to them, there would be very little reason to parent.

I don't think they _understand everything that everyone_ says to them, either. But they understand the intent behind communicating with them, and they most certainly understand some of it. Keeping it simple helps that, too.


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## mandalin24kd (Dec 31, 2007)

I totally agree with you.
I just so people that are expecting these little guys to understand what they are saying and they get so caught up in trying to be understood that they miss the point of what needs to be understood in the situation. I think it's confusing for a child to have the pressure of understanding what we tell them.
And sometimes, we have to speak in there language.


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## greeny (Apr 27, 2007)

Quote:

Healthy gentle discipline doesn't need to contain imposed consequences. You don't need consequences in order to set very clear boundaries.
I have a hard time with this notion, the idea that you can discipline without consequences.

For example, recently my 3 year old ds got into a scuffle with a little boy at a playgroup. Little boy had started it by grabbing toys from ds, who got mad and ended up biting the boy.







I immediately asked the boy if he was okay, apologized to the mom, scooped up ds and we left. I believe in sending clear messages that this type of behavior is not okay, but how else would I do that without using a consequence?


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## rainyday (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mandalin24kd* 
Okay! So I'm not crazy! Permissive parenting, for a lack of better words, SUCKS!
When her 4 yo son kicked me 22 month old dd in the face for the 4th time cause he wanted to sit next to me, and when (in a public resturant) started spitting in others food, was grabbing handful of food out of everyones plates, was throwing things at the poor people behind us, started rubbing my boobs, pushing my 22 mo in the face while digging his fingers into her eyes and decided that salt and hot sauce needed to be poured all over other peoples food, while yelling at the waitress that she better come back now, standing/sitting on the table ledge and ripping down decorative christmas lights, all the time she's just keeps saying "I don't think the resturant people will like that" and " I don't THINK she likes you pushing her" and that was it............... I was completely justified being disgusted and wanted to scream and throttle them both, right?

Or maybe I am crazy.........

Clearly, you just want to stifle this child's natural expressions of exuberance.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *mandalin24kd* 
If they already "understood" what we said to them, there would be very little reason to parent.

I don't agree. I think that long after kids understand what we say, we still need to parent. For years and years to come, their brains will not be fully developed, and they will not be able to consider the possible consequences of their actions in the same way that an adult one. A lot of recent studies have shown how very differently teens evaluate risk and think about situations than adults do. They definitely understand what we say about a situation, but that does not mean that they can think about it in the same way that an adult can. This is true to a much larger degree, of course, when we consider younger children.

Also, impulse control is still a developing skill for kids. Heck, it's not a fully developed skill for me sometimes (like when I want another piece of cake when I know I shouldn't!). Long after kids understand that they shouldn't do something, they'll sometimes have problems controlling the impulse to do it anyway - and that's normal!


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## rainyday (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greeny* 
I have a hard time with this notion, the idea that you can discipline without consequences.

For example, recently my 3 year old ds got into a scuffle with a little boy at a playgroup. Little boy had started it by grabbing toys from ds, who got mad and ended up biting the boy.







I immediately asked the boy if he was okay, apologized to the mom, scooped up ds and we left. I believe in sending clear messages that this type of behavior is not okay, but how else would I do that without using a consequence?

To me, though, this is not just a consequence. It's also respecting where your child is emotionally at that point in time. He wasn't able to deal with the other boy, so you helped him deal with it by removing him from the situation. It might have been possible to avert the biting by recognizing his frustration and helping him keep his toys, but, depending on the situation, it may not have worked, and leaving may have been the only workable solution to that as well.


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## greeny (Apr 27, 2007)

Quote:

It might have been possible to avert the biting by recognizing his frustration and helping him keep his toys
It was my fault, really, because I was occupied with my dd at the moment and didn't notice the "fight" between the two before it was too late, and it only took a few seconds, from what I heard.

Normally I am very vigilant.









So in my mind leaving *is* a consequence of not being gentle with others. I mean, he would have calmed down, probably would have apologized, and everything would have been fine. But I wanted the message to be as clear as possible: biting is not acceptable. If you bite, we leave.


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## bl987ue (Mar 14, 2006)

I think that age is fine for introducing logical consequences. You can't play nicely, we have to leave. It doesn't take long for them to get the point.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greeny* 
I have a hard time with this notion, the idea that you can discipline without consequences.

For example, recently my 3 year old ds got into a scuffle with a little boy at a playgroup. Little boy had started it by grabbing toys from ds, who got mad and ended up biting the boy.







I immediately asked the boy if he was okay, apologized to the mom, scooped up ds and we left. I believe in sending clear messages that this type of behavior is not okay, but how else would I do that without using a consequence?

Step in *before* the biting. Ah, read on, gotcha you were distracted. And yeah, leaving is the perfect response. Sure it was basically your fault he got in the situation where he was frustrated, but once he's frustrated it's your job to take him away from that situation.

On a more general topic:

The problem with both permissive and punitive parenting is that they're lazy not pro-active.

Side note: if you're thinking of sending your kids to a school, watch their potential teacher when s/he watches the playground, if his/her eyes aren't constantly moving--you don't want your kid in that class.


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## lemonbar (Apr 14, 2008)

Reading the posts I'm beginning to wonder if I'm really GD. I'd always thought we were GD. No hitting, explaining what is going on, and treating kids like the people they are. But we also use rewards for good behavior (amazing what a sticker chart does for table manners and bed making) and punishments (unfortunately having to confiscate some favorite but frivolous clothes to be earned back). Does this seem disrepectful of the kids? I tell my dd and ds that it's my job to teach them how to get along with other people (including me!) and to help them make respectful behavior habit. But is using such reward & punishment systems not GD? If it's not, could someone tell me the problem with reward/punishment? or a reference? I'm curious.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greeny* 
Not necessarily, but sometimes I think parents who want to be gentle don't know how to set boundaries because they're so afraid of being not-gentle.

Yep. I'm GD but I've had this problem with more than one GD friend... GD slides into permissive and ineffectual and kids are aggressive and/or just always looking for ways to make drama, with no effective response from the parent. It's really crappy and I have started avoiding those children, either entirely or partially by cutting back on time spent.

Gotta be able to set boundaries with our kids and have those boundaries respected, especially around aggression or destruction. If you can't do that, you are too permissive IMO.


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## WhaleinGaloshes (Oct 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lemonbar* 
Reading the posts I'm beginning to wonder if I'm really GD. I'd always thought we were GD. No hitting, explaining what is going on, and treating kids like the people they are. But we also use rewards for good behavior (amazing what a sticker chart does for table manners and bed making) and punishments (unfortunately having to confiscate some favorite but frivolous clothes to be earned back). Does this seem disrepectful of the kids? I tell my dd and ds that it's my job to teach them how to get along with other people (including me!) and to help them make respectful behavior habit. But is using such reward & punishment systems not GD? If it's not, could someone tell me the problem with reward/punishment? or a reference? I'm curious.

In my house, we don't have punishments or rewards for good behavior. I completely agree that my job is to help my daughter learn to navigate the world, including socially. But there are options for doing this beyond confiscating belongings or sticker charts.

I highly recommend Alfie Kohn's Unconditional Parenting if you haven't read it.

ETA: Regarding your question: are you being gentle and respectful? It definitely sounds like it to me. I would hate to see you worry about being GD-enough, that's just a label. If you'd like to explore more about punishments/rewards/coercion/behaviorism in parenting etc. I really recommend Kohn's UP.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lemonbar* 
Reading the posts I'm beginning to wonder if I'm really GD. I'd always thought we were GD. No hitting, explaining what is going on, and treating kids like the people they are. But we also use rewards for good behavior (amazing what a sticker chart does for table manners and bed making) and punishments (unfortunately having to confiscate some favorite but frivolous clothes to be earned back). Does this seem disrepectful of the kids? I tell my dd and ds that it's my job to teach them how to get along with other people (including me!) and to help them make respectful behavior habit. But is using such reward & punishment systems not GD? If it's not, could someone tell me the problem with reward/punishment? or a reference? I'm curious.

What you are doing, including rewards and punishments, definitely sounds GD to me. Gd is pretty much what you described in the beginning of your post. Explain, treat kids like people, realize there's a reason for behavior, etc.
Within GD, there are people who do not punish or reward. That's GD too. It's not "more GD" or "less GD" yk?
I fall in the non punishing/rewarding camp. Dp and I just don't think that using behavioristic parenting techniques are necessary or ideal. (Alfie Kohn's Unconditional Parenting has good information on that).
I also think that punishments, at best, make kids behave for self centered reasons. Punishment interferes with the connection between parent and child, which imo is the most important discipline tool we have as parents.

I will definitely not say I've never punished (Dp never has). This is just the ideal style for us. yk?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greeny* 
I have a hard time with this notion, the idea that you can discipline without consequences.

For example, recently my 3 year old ds got into a scuffle with a little boy at a playgroup. Little boy had started it by grabbing toys from ds, who got mad and ended up biting the boy.







I immediately asked the boy if he was okay, apologized to the mom, scooped up ds and we left. I believe in sending clear messages that this type of behavior is not okay, but how else would I do that without using a consequence?

I would have said to ds (who is 3.5) "Do NOT bite. That is not cool. If you are upset, you can do X, Y, or Z" or some other way of dealing with the situation. I'm very serious when I say stuff like that, in re: to hurting others. Trust me, when I say it, the message is clear. That stuff is a HUGE deal to me.
If he were having a hard time getting along with the other boy, I may have taken him out of the room. I would ask him if it was time for us to go. He may say yes. If I could tell that it just wasn't going to work, he was too upset, etc, we'd leave. Not as a way to teach him that biting=leaving (so he'll learn not to bite in the future), but because I noticed that the playdate was going downhill and there was no salvaging it.

It's two different camps of thought, I think. It's hard for me to understand how others think that consequences are across the board necessary. (I do understand how even nonpunitive parents would use consequences for certain situations, though). I really just don't get it, so I don't have a great response for you, yk? Like, I can't tell you how it works, or what it looks like.
Other people, it's hard for them to understand how one would parent without consequences.
It's not just substituting some non-consequence for a consequence. It's just plain different.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I live in an uber-crunchy area. I've not seen over permissiveness, though I've seen my share of inattentiveness. I've seen parents behave quite badly so they wouldn't be mistaken for permissive.

I can't tell if it's different experiences or different interpretations of seeing similar things.

I think fear of permissiveness has done a lot of harm. I know I've felt that peer pressure from other parents when my kid is doing something they don't want their kids doing...going barefoot, playing in the creek, playing mudpuddle basketball....

If my kid was losing it in the a restaurant, I know it would be their way of asking for my help, which I would lovingly and gently provide.

When each of my kids was going through the transition from fairly peaceable and lumpish in restaurants to able to sit and enjoy the food and conversation, we mostly picnic'd. Dp is good at reminding me that we can't keep asking them to do things that they are not developmentally ready to do.

If my kid was freaking out like that, I'd know I'd provided more challenge than they could meet peacefully. I'd bail!


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mandalin24kd* 
The more I think about it, I know adult products of permissive parenting, and they themselves will say that they have issue after issue that they just can't deal with. Many of them struggle to keep relationships and jobs.
Children will follow your example, yes, but if all you show them is being walked all over, they will assume they can walk over anyone.
And there is a reason I don't physically punish my kids! Why the hell would I want your kid doing it to my kid.
Your child is HURTING another person, you remove them immediately and you say that is not okay to hit someone and then you talk to them, maybe see why they are doing it. But trying to rationalize with a 4 year old is like saying Paris Hilton could be a virgin. It doesn't exsist. The aren't emotionally or cognitively able to cope with that skill yet.
I officially hate permissive parenting. This has had me mad all day.

You had a responsibility there to that you didn't follow through with, probably because you worried that it would put a rift in your friendship. That was the reason that I used to have for not standing up for myself or my child, but now that I have a friend who does this I have discovered just how smoothly things can run if you speak up for yourself or your child.
You have the responsibility to stand up for yourself and your child in situations like this and to let the other child know that his behavior is effecting you and your son and you didn't like it. Because you didn't say anything at the restraunt she was probably thinking that you were understanding and you didn't mind what was going on.

There is no need to rationalize with him, he is her child. All you need to do in a situation like that is say something like stop, don't push me, don't touch me there, don't push my child, etc... with a firm voice and a serious look on your face and then if this doesn't work and it gets to be to much and he continues to hurt or invade your space or your child's you cut the visit short by being blunt about the reason or by tactfully saying that you have some errands you have to get done before naptime.


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## sunnymw (Feb 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cujobunny* 
I think a key point of my GD philosophy is always trying to understand the reason behind the behaviour and *looking to fix that.*

Bolding mine









Yep. I think the above is GD... whereas permissive would be "trying to understand the reason behind the behavior and using it as an excuse" and the other end would be "not even thinking about the reason behind the behavior, just punishing the behavior"

Spanking = reactive... GD = proactive... permissive = NO active!!


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ThreeBeans* 
Gentle parenting is kind direction and guidance.











Quote:


Originally Posted by *greeny* 
Not necessarily, but sometimes I think parents who want to be gentle don't know how to set boundaries because they're so afraid of being not-gentle.

I know that I struggle with this, especially because my strong willed, active (hyperactive?), and special needs child doesn't listen, and often has a glint of defiance when it comes to listening. It is very hard for me to set boundaries in a gentle way AND have them not be ignored. I struggle daily.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamadebug* 
Permissive vs Gentle is something I have been trying to sort out lately. I have a really strong willed three year old little guy. I do offer guidance and direction - but he often doesn't respond the way I hope he will. I was worried about being overly forceful/not gentle. So, even though I would talk with him and tried to suggest things, he wouldn't take my suggestions and I wasn't sure how to follow through. I thought I was being gentle, but the reality is I was being permissive at times. I recently talked with someone about this because 3 has been really hard! What I learned is that he isn't a "parent pleaser" - some kids are and some kids aren't. Certainly there is no place for spanking, yelling, shaming, etc. But, it is OK to be firm and have consequences. Some kids respond to it while some kids you just have to talk to. For me, the distinction between permissive and gentle has been hard to figure out - especially if you don't come from this type of background!

























AMEN!







: That was such a well written, thoughtful, and relevant post! Thank you!

Not all kids respond to GD the same way! I struggle the same way you describe because I am commited to GD but I have a strong willed, special needs kid. It is a struggle.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lemonbar* 
So what is GD? I thought we were GD. No spanking, belittling. Yes to positive motivation. But it is tough. It seems inevitably, there will be conflicts, dissagreements, and times you need to teach your kids about appropriate behavior (such as in a restaurant) - and then you must "pull rank" (ie be the parent) and demand behavior and impose a consequence if it does not occur.










Absolutely.


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## OhDang (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
Yeah, I have a really hard time understanding parents who allow their children to hit or hurt others. And I know that parents can't always enforce their will, but there needs to be a response to hitting that show VERY clearly that it is NOT ok. And if said child continues to hurt someone, they need to be removed from the situation. Not as punishment, but more as "I can see that you can't control the impulse, so I'm going to take away the temptation" in order to keep others safe.

*Healthy gentle discipline doesn't need to contain imposed consequences. You don't need consequences in order to set very clear boundaries.*

My main guiding principle is Harm None. That's what my boundaries are based on, and the ones that I set up for ds. For us, it doesn't take consequences to make it clear that hitting is very much not acceptable. yk?
I also include in "harm none" some behavior that is disturbing others, or damaging property, etc.

I really don't understand this..So if a child hits another child you don't need to use consequences? I am not saying hitting or yelling or any of that is a good consequence but how will they learn if you don't do anything?
Even when you grow up in real life, if you hit someone there is a consequence. I am confused.


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## lunar forest (Feb 20, 2003)

A consiquences may occure, but there is no need to _impose_ them on the child. When you do that you are using it as a punishment. While that may be a valid form of discipline, it is not necessary.

Simply talking with your child, and explaining that "when you hit your are hurting someone else", "there is a better way to express your frustration" (and give him examples), "there is a better way to get what you want", etc. etc.

You don't need to say "because you hit we have to leave/take away that toy/sit in time out/etc." These things may be a reality, but they are not always, and shouldn't be imposed artifically. It's not a natural consequence if it doesn't happen naturally.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OhDang* 
I really don't understand this..So if a child hits another child you don't need to use consequences? I am not saying hitting or yelling or any of that is a good consequence but how will they learn if you don't do anything?
Even when you grow up in real life, if you hit someone there is a consequence. I am confused.

Like the pp said, there is a natural consequence, but there doesn't have to be an imposed consequence/punishment.

I've shared this before but I'll share it again. When ds was younger, he went through a phase where he'd hit the dogs. Not cool in my book. At all. So when he hit her (it was mostly the one that he'd hit), I said "Do NOT hit her. She doesn't like to be hit." Then I figured out why he was hitting her. Often, it was because she was in his space. Then I told him a better way to tell her to get out of his space.
He was preverbal at this point (he was maybe 20 mos old or so). So it took a couple times. But he stopped fairly soon, and started doing what I'd shown him to do instead. Of course, I was there to make sure she complied.

He didn't need to be punished to get him to stop. As a matter of fact, I'm fairly certain that it would have taken WAY more time if I'd used timeouts to get him to stop. It wouldn't have taught him anything, it wouldn't have shown him that the impulse is legitimate but that it needs to be expressed in a different way.

Another example- there were a few days he was hitting me with books. I don't tolerate anyone hitting me, even if it doesn't hurt. So I wanted him to stop. I yelled, I left the room (cuz I was mad), I threatened, I explained, etc. Didn't help. What fixed it? When I said "Don't hit me with the books, I don't like it. If you want me to read to you, put the book in my hand."
I recognized that he had a legitimate impulse, and he just didn't know an acceptable way to express that. So, as soon as he knew the acceptable way, that's what he did.
I can only imagine the confusion he felt when I yelled at him, or left him alone (he hated to be alone) simply because he wanted a book read to him. yk?

Now, I will say that this would really only apply to a younger child. The very very few times ds has hit me in the last few months (it has never hurt, he intentionally does it lightly, but its still a big deal to me), the only "consequence" was me looking very serious and unhappy and saying "Do NOT hit me. I do NOT like to be hit." period. And if I feel it necessary, I tell him that the feelings behind it are ok, I tell him other ways to express those feelings, then I reiterate that hitting is not ok.


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## nancy926 (Mar 10, 2003)

I agree that forced consequences don't always "work." That is, if your child learns that biting=leaving wherever you are, he/she might decide to bite if he/she is somewhere and wants to go home!

This happened to me once while grocery shopping. DD was screaming (not crying, just yelling loudly) and I told her if she screamed again, we'd have to leave, and she said "Good! I don't want to be here!" That's probably why she was screaming in the first place, but I didn't bother to ask WHY she was doing what she was doing -- which I think is important (as in the case of the PP who discovered her DC was hitting her with books because he wanted to be read to!).


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## caspian's mama (Mar 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mandalin24kd* 
...trying to rationalize with a 4 year old is like saying Paris Hilton could be a virgin.

maybe if i say it this way, my husband will understand a little better.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rainyday* 
Clearly, you just want to stifle this child's natural expressions of exuberance.









LOL! I remember when DS was about 18 months old, we were in a restaurant and he started using his straw to spatter milk all over -- It was a bendy straw and he discovered he could "boing" it and make the milk fly....

Now, I don't like being showered with milk, and I knew the folks at the table behind it would not enjoy it, so I told him, "People don't want milk showers, milk needs to stay in your cup," and when he did it again (demonstrating, via a flinch, that the folks behind him really did NOT like the milk shower), I replaced the bendy straw in his cup with a non-bendy straw from my water, because "I know its fun, but you cannot spray your milk onto other people."

There was some fuss about this until his meal came and distracted him... and a crunchy-looking woman who passed our table on her way out said "Oh, mom, I'm just expressing my creativity!"

(Note: She was well out of milk shower range)


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## caspian's mama (Mar 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nancy926* 
I agree that forced consequences don't always "work." That is, if your child learns that biting=leaving wherever you are, he/she might decide to bite if he/she is somewhere and wants to go home! This happened to me once while grocery shopping. DD was screaming (not crying, just yelling loudly) and I told her if she screamed again, we'd have to leave, and she said "Good! I don't want to be here!"

yes!! i was just going to say this same thing.









unfortunately we had to learn this the hard way.


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## boigrrrlwonder (Jan 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gwynthfair* 
I struggle with this as well. I have a very high energy, high needs toddler who is always climbing on and getting into everything. It's hard to know how to enforce boundaries with a toddler, because most of the parenting books I have read are about talking to kids and explaining, etc. But not much help for toddlers who are largely pre-verbal.

Oh man, could I have written this. I've been feeling very overwhelmed with my 14 month old for this very reason. And I also really struggle with gentle discipline and the idea of developmentally appropriate behavior (inability to share, sit still and be quiet for any length of time, etc...)


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