# Ezzo v. Dobson. Who is scarier?



## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

I think we can all agree that Ezzo is more evil. His brand of 'baby discipline' crosses the abuse border and leaves it in the dust, while Dobson dances around it.

But all the same....I think Dobson frightens me more than Ezzo! I think there are a lot of loving "Christian" parents out there that would be horrified by Ezzo and put the book down without ever implementing its methods (my parents certainly never would have Ezzoed a baby), and at the same time been drawn to the pseudo-psychology/tough love that Dobson presents.

Dobson is more insidious, more deceiving, because his sadism is mixed in with a small dose of fairly healthy advice.

In short...Dobson scares me more. Any thoughts?


----------



## paxye (Mar 31, 2005)

Both of them give me a high BP and send me running... IMO they are equally scary and also dangerous...

I would of course add the Pearls to the top of the list also...


----------



## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

The Pearls...Pearls are just vile, vile vile.


----------



## LianneM (May 26, 2004)

Pearls aside (they take the cake) I agree that Dobson is scarier. It's easy enough to dismiss Ezzo, especially with the FTT cases due to his feeding schedule. But Dobson, my gosh, he just seems to get to the well-meaning parents and really give them what they want to hear - ex. spanking is a quick solution, and he says there's no reason to think it will cause long-term harm in the child. Lovely. My church offered a parenting/discipline class using Dobson - I made sure people knew why we weren't attending.







:


----------



## Divaostrich (Feb 19, 2004)

Hands down Dobson for me! That man's spanking advice infuriates me to no end. He seems like the cuddly gradpa with his voice and in his books for adults, but really pulls one on the moms who trust his parenting advice. He praises moms who spank! Thanks to him the poison of violence to children is being passed to another generation of Christian children.

I'm usually pretty mild tempered, but he gets me going....so please excuse my rage


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I read some of James Dobson. I liked him fine, but used what I liked and tossed the rest.

I LOVE LOVE LOVE Kevin Leman. Many of you may not like him, but I adore and worship him. I have a shrine of Kevin Leman books in my bookcase. He has made my marriage so much easier.


----------



## Deir (Aug 19, 2005)

Who are the Pearls?


----------



## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

Deir...there are many informative threads on the Pearls in this forum, but unfortunately the search function is down for the interim














:

The Pearls have recently been in the news because a mother murdered her four year old last year using his discipline methods.

He advocates INCREDIBLY harsh physical violence towards babies and children for the slightest 'infraction' and recommends keeping a piece of piping (YES PIPING) in each room of the house in order to hit your children with should they step out of line, amongst other things.


----------



## Deir (Aug 19, 2005)

OMG!!!!! Thanks for informing me! I just went and checked out some of their writings!! UGH! It is unbelievable. there is so much I don't even know where to begin!! My MIL just sent us a decorative clothes hook thing that has that bible quote on it! It made me a bit sick but now I really hate it. I have to hang that darn thing up because she's coming to visit next week! But then i will take it right down. i have no idea why she got it for us anyway other than it is a train and Myles loves trains of course. It doesn't even make sense because "train" vehicle and "train" verb are not the same anyway. LOL


----------



## PaganScribe (Feb 14, 2003)

Dobson. Absolutely.


----------



## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Dobson & the Pearls are worse that Ezzo, who is his own kind'a crazy for sure.


----------



## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Pearl Link


----------



## elmh23 (Jul 1, 2004)

Scariest: Pearls
Second Scariest: Dobson
Third Scariest: Ezzo


----------



## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elmh23*
Scariest: Pearls
Second Scariest: Dobson
Third Scariest: Ezzo

I think this would be my ranking too, although I am not as familiar with the Ezzos. The Pearls seem to advocate the most heinous violence against the smallest infants, but Dobson seems to have a much larger following. For that reason, his "scariness" factor goes up.


----------



## akkimmie (Nov 2, 2005)

WOW how scary all 3 of them are





















I had never read about any of them until this thread- hope it's ok to say but how could a person do that to another person, let alone your OWN child. I am shocked.

THANK GOODNESS FOR GD MAMAS







:


----------



## thefragile7393 (Jun 21, 2005)

Ehhh....they are all freaky. The Pearls and Ezzo are my big BP risers.


----------



## EvansMomma (Mar 7, 2006)

OMG.
I had no knowledge of what the Pearls were all about til I went to the link Georgia provided.

I read through the first little bit but had to stop because I was actually getting physically ill. HOW COULD ANYONE JUSTIFY HURTING A BABY - or any other human being for that matter! I got as far as the part where they talk about how to 'train' your baby not to bite you while nursing - they say to PULL THEIR HAIR! OMG. I am just sick to my tummy now. I could never ever ever in a million years ever imagine doing anything to cause my sweet little baby pain.

I would say, having read that - the Pearls are by far more vile than Ezzo. I don't know much about Dobson either, but I am just not up to reading about any more baby torturing techniques so I'll leave Dobson for another day.


----------



## mmfoote (Mar 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LianneM*
It's easy enough to dismiss Ezzo, especially with the FTT cases due to his feeding schedule.

What is FTT?


----------



## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

Pearls are the worst thing out there (slightly worse than Fugate, Bradley, and Lessin.)

I believe Ezzo's teachings are more dangerous. They agree with what Dobson teaches, but include the feeding schedules and parent-centered selfishness.

Dobson reaches more people and (inexplicably,) gives off a more respectable aire, which makes him dangerous.


----------



## paxye (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mmfoote*
What is FTT?

Failure to thrive...

due to the strict feeding schedules that the Ezzo's endorse many babies (especially breastfed babes) have been underfed and were not thriving...


----------



## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

I can't begin to answer that question. They are all just equally inexcusable in my estimation.

Deir, why on earth would you keep that thing?

I'd toss it and either tell MIL why, or if you just can't do that, tell her it broke.









You don't _have_ to put anything in your house that makes you uncomfortable. It's your sanctuary!

-----

About the Pearls... Let's not forget that they actually advise to set babies up to be hit too. Entice them with interesting things, and... then... >whack!<








There's just nothing productive that can be said about this.


----------



## cfiddlinmama (May 9, 2006)

Yeah, a prominant member of our community gave me "To Train Up a Child" by the Pearls. I decided to read it with an open mind. Oh MY GOODNESS!!!!! I about died! Put your glasses down in front of your child and switch them with a stick until they don't touch them anymore!!!!!!! Also, let your baby cry so that it learns not cry.







Yeah, the Pearls get my blood boiling! (I think they should be switched for everything and see how THEY like it.)


----------



## BeBe123 (May 25, 2006)

They all make me ill. I just want to go grab my kids and hug them when i think of everything these people are teaching.


----------



## Tonia80 (Jun 10, 2006)

Check out www.stoptherod.net

Ugh
\


----------



## Tonia80 (Jun 10, 2006)

OMG, clearly the Pearls have NOOOOO understanding about child rearing, child development or child psychology AT ALL. It just disgudts me how many children have been emotionally scarred through the years due to the teachings they have!!! I know so many Christians who really believe spanking is required of them by the bible, which is really not the case at all unless you twist the interpretation of certain verses. I am just sick to my stomache..... We lived with a family with 6 kids and the parents got on me CONSTANTLY cuz they beat thier kids with a belt. It was how they obeyed God. I* am sorry, but my children are precious gifts of God, last time I checked God didn't go around whipping ME so what gives me the right to be that way????


----------



## Tonia80 (Jun 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aira*
I can't begin to answer that question. They are all just equally inexcusable in my estimation.

Deir, why on earth would you keep that thing?

I'd toss it and either tell MIL why, or if you just can't do that, tell her it broke.









You don't _have_ to put anything in your house that makes you uncomfortable. It's your sanctuary!

-----

About the Pearls... Let's not forget that they actually advise to set babies up to be hit too. Entice them with interesting things, and... then... >whack!<








There's just nothing productive that can be said about this.









I totally agree. How about I set a big pile of money or something in front of you and then punch you when you reach for it?! HOW does that teach a child ANYTHING???????
And my MIL trid to give me this plank thing that she joked was to hang on the wall as a visual reminder to my kids.... I told her it was disgusting. Some grandparenst might get on you about spoiling your child but you'd think they would be happy you were not hitting thier precious grandbabies. KWIM?


----------



## EvansMomma (Mar 7, 2006)

Tonia, I went to that site you posted - - - omg...I can't believe anyone would BUY something like that. Ugh. Is there an emoticon for "puking til my head explodes" - - that's how I feel about that stupid thing.


----------



## Deir (Aug 19, 2005)

.

Deir, why on earth would you keep that thing?

I'd toss it and either tell MIL why, or if you just can't do that, tell her it broke.









You don't _have_ to put anything in your house that makes you uncomfortable. It's your sanctuary!

oh geez......My MIL doesn't advocate that stuff!! "train up you children" was a bible quote before it was a title of a sadistic book! She's fairly religious and I think she wishes we were too!!

Wow- i gotta be careful here on MDC!


----------



## Deir (Aug 19, 2005)

My last post was weird..I tried to put in a quote from above oh well.. still getting the hang of this!

Anyway- My dh and I were just so disgusted reading pearls' stuff and Dobson is horrendous too!! Sick.


----------



## aira (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deir*
oh geez......My MIL doesn't advocate that stuff!! "train up you children" was a bible quote before it was a title of a sadistic book! She's fairly religious and I think she wishes we were too!!

Wow- i gotta be careful here on MDC!

Uh, I just meant that you said it made you uncomfortable... "sick" is how I think you described it?

Regardless of MIL's intentions, I was going by what you said it made you feel.


----------



## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

Train up isn't actually in the original language.

What was translated, "Train up," is the Hebrew word, "Channuk," which means, "Dedicate."

The only place in the Bible in which, "Channuk," is translated, "Train-up" is in that one verse, every other time the word, "Channuk," is translated, it is properly rendered, "Dedicate."

If you look at the Biblical mandate as "dedicate your children," instead of the more punitive, "train-up," it lends itself to a more grace-based approach.

Sort of what we want for ourselves.


----------



## rockinmama (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DebraBaker*
Pearls are the worst thing out there (slightly worse than Fugate, Bradley, and Lessin.)

Bradley?
As in Bradley childbirth method Bradley?


----------



## LadyMarmalade (May 22, 2005)

IMO, Dobson. As others have said, most people look at the Pearls and Ezzo with revulsion, but Dobson is insidious - the way he has lured people with spiritual blackmail is disgusting.


----------



## bradleybirth2mom (Apr 21, 2006)

Ladies, Ezzo and Dobson aside, I like Dr. William Sears----I have most of his books. He doesn't believe in spanking and has a healthy Christian perspective on attachment parenting without being too pushy.


----------



## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rockinmama*
Bradley?
As in Bradley childbirth method Bradley?

I'm thinking she's probably meaning someone like this guy, who I found through googling "bradley child discipline".

While I have my own issues with THE Bradley's teachings, I don't think he had any official thoughts on raising 'em after they were birthed.


----------



## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

Um...what she said, Reb Bradley (the name should give a clue, I'd expect a Confederate flag on the back of the truck with a
Getrdone sticker.

If he wasn't Fundie, some truck testicles.


----------



## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DebraBaker*
If he wasn't Fundie, some truck testicles.

Oh MAN, what is up with those things?

At first I sort of giggled when I saw them, but now it's just gross. And causes me to think VERY belittling comments about the anatomy of the male owner of those trucks....not quite what they were going for, perhaps?


----------



## itsang (Apr 12, 2006)

I'd never even heard of these people until I checked out this thread. I'm crying after reading Georgia's link. The Pearls are sick people...I'm so disgusted right now.







:


----------



## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Dobson is scary because he seems so "loving" and benign at first blush, especially if you're an uniformed parent. He can suck you in.

Ezzo is just Satan himself. No, Pearl is. No, Ezzo. No, Pearl....







: ...they're going to bunk together in hell, that's all I know.


----------



## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

I agree with others that although Ezzo and Pearl are much worse in terms of what they advocate, Dobson is more insidious because he's more mainstream. Dobson actually has a few good ideas mixed in with the crap, so I think he draws in more people. And Dobson is very politically influential; his lobby controls most of Congress. But he isn't even close to the evil advocated by Ezzo/Pearl. I suspect that most Dobsonite parents love their children and sincerely believe that they're doing what's best for them. I don't think that's true of the hardcore child-torture fetishists like Pearl.


----------



## Proudly AP (Jul 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna*
hardcore child-torture fetishists like Pearl.

well-said! that may be what it comes down to.









i worked with a family who quoted, 'Dr James Dobson'. it was all i could do to bite my tongue. it would not have been okay for me to comment, given my role with the family. they are very religious, think they are christian (i don't think christ would treat children that way), and love their children. they are just following what they've read, heard and been told by their church.


----------



## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

He's a doctor like "Dr. Laura,"

Oy, to think some people have to work their assess off for years on end to be called, "Dr."


----------



## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

OK, Dr. Laura has an absolute right to be called that, as she has a PhD. Just like I have that right having a doctorate in Chiropractic.

Someone with a PhD in Theology is also allowed to be called Doctor, and all of them worked for years to get it.

It's the assumption of the reader or listener that their definition of "doctor" means MD, and I know that Dr. Laura never claims to be an MD...

I don't know what sort of doctorate Dobson has, but if he was graduated with a degree that allows it, then he absolutely IS allowed to be called that, even if he doesn't match what our assumptions were.


----------



## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

Someone who represents themselves as "doctor'" is generally assumed to either have a doctorate in medicine or dentistry or psychology. Dr. Laura has a degree in Physiology. But then, Dr Laura is a


----------



## arismom1029 (Apr 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia*
Pearl Link

I made it through the part where they compared children to horses and dogs, and had to stop there.....


----------



## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

I just want to say, I saw the thread title and immediately thought of Celebrity Death Match.







Not very Gentle, I know, but darn funny to one who watched too much MTV back in the day.







:


----------



## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deir*
OMG!!!!! Thanks for informing me! I just went and checked out some of their writings!! UGH! It is unbelievable. there is so much I don't even know where to begin!! My MIL just sent us a decorative clothes hook thing that has that bible quote on it! It made me a bit sick but now I really hate it. I have to hang that darn thing up because she's coming to visit next week! But then i will take it right down. i have no idea why she got it for us anyway other than it is a train and Myles loves trains of course. It doesn't even make sense because "train" vehicle and "train" verb are not the same anyway. LOL

If you mean the quote from Proverbs 22:6, there are a lot of Christians (myself included) that don't think that has anything to do with spanking.


----------



## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

I looked at the thread title when I got an email notification and thought,

"Alien-vs-Predator."


----------



## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DebraBaker*
I looked at the thread title when I got an email notification and thought,

"Alien-vs-Predator."









Oy. Sad but absolutely spot on.


----------



## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DebraBaker*
I looked at the thread title when I got an email notification and thought,

"Alien-vs-Predator."









:


----------



## Deir (Aug 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5*
If you mean the quote from Proverbs 22:6, there are a lot of Christians (myself included) that don't think that has anything to do with spanking.


I guess my posts are really really unclear!!!! My MIL doesn't think that quote is about spanking either!! sigh..............I just meant that the whole tone of "train" bothered me even before I heard how the Pearls had used it for their books.


----------



## ColoradoMama (Nov 22, 2001)

I really think that Pearl and Ezzo are the absolute worst. I cannot stand Dobson, but I think the things that Pearl and Ezzo advocate are flat out child abuse. At least Dobson promotes family closeness and some other things that I can agree with. Now - when you take him as a whole package (not just for child rearing) he is just as scary as the other two. As a Christian, I think they are the scariest trio on the planet!


----------



## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

"Train" is a very poor translation of the Hebrew word, "Chanuk."

This is the only time "Chanuk" is rendered, "train," every other time it is more accurately rendered, "Dedicate," which doen't have punitive connotations.

The translators (white European men, go figure,) not the Bible, are problematic.


----------



## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DebraBaker*
"Train" is a very poor translation of the Hebrew word, "Chanuk."

This is the only time "Chanuk" is rendered, "train," every other time it is more accurately rendered, "Dedicate," which doen't have punitive connotations.

The translators (white European men, go figure,) not the Bible, are problematic.

This is off-topic, and you have tried to explain this before, but I really don't get it--how does the implication of "dedicate" differ from the implication of "train" in this context? Dedicate a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it. Doesn't that mean, dedicate him in the right direction, i.e. teach/train him in the way he should go? Either way, the point is the same, right?


----------



## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

If you look at the S'hmi Yisrael, for example, you will see how a family should be naturally sharing their faith with their children when they rise in the morning, when they're going to bed at night, when they're taking a little walk together, when they're around the table.

If you're dedicated in your job as a parent, you will be sharing these things with your children.

It is much more comprehensive and dynamic than "train-up."


----------



## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Who are the S'hmi Yisrael? (sorry, this is a massive gap in my education)


----------



## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

Deut 6:4


----------



## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Okay. That is about living your faith in your daily life and teaching it to your children. But isn't that still the same thing? Maybe I'm really, really missing something here, but I would think that the things described in that verse would be encompassed in training a child in the way he should go. That is *how* you teach or train a child in the way he should go--by living as an example and by talking around the table in the morning, etc. So I'm still not really seeing the difference between "dedicating" and "training" a child. I think it is the same message with different words.


----------



## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

For me, "Train," has subtle negative connotations.

It could just be me.

You train dogs.

You train some plants to grow, "Here." and nowhere else.

Train has no notion of thinking for one's self.

Dedicate is more something that's addressing the parent's heart. If the one reading the verse (we're presuming a parent,) is having their own heart and perspective addressed (please do this rather than force that other person to do this,) it's more gentle, and more fair because it's a bit like the kid arguing that Jimmy over there doesn't (fill in the blank,) and the mother says, "I'm talking to you, not Jimmy." It's like the verse that says, "Children obey your parents." It doesn't say, "parents force your children to obey you," but rather says, "Parents do not provoke your children." Everyone gets instruction, but not to force the other party.

Dedicate a child in the way he should go, has a sense of gentle commitment.

Train has visions of whips and chairs.


----------



## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DebraBaker*
For me, "Train," has subtle negative connotations.

It could just be me.

You train dogs.

You train some plants to grow, "Here." and nowhere else.

Train has no notion of thinking for one's self.

Dedicate is more something that's addressing the parent's heart. If the one reading the verse (we're presuming a parent,) is having their own heart and perspective addressed (please do this rather than force that other person to do this,) it's more gentle, and more fair because it's a bit like the kid arguing that Jimmy over there doesn't (fill in the blank,) and the mother says, "I'm talking to you, not Jimmy." It's like the verse that says, "Children obey your parents." It doesn't say, "parents force your children to obey you," but rather says, "Parents do not provoke your children." Everyone gets instruction, but not to force the other party.

Dedicate a child in the way he should go, has a sense of gentle commitment.

Train has visions of whips and chairs.

Okay. I don't think that "train" means forcing someone to do something or keeping someone from thinking for himself, though. Like job training, where you learn how to do your job, parents provide "life training," I guess. I do agree with you that there is a key difference between instruction to do something and instruction to force others to live up to their instructions. Children are supposed to obey their parents and parents are supposed to not provoke their children to anger--no coersion mentioned. This is a distinction not acknowledged by the Pearl/Ezzo/Dobson camp, not only regarding child-rearing but their whole philosophy.

I don't see what being white European men has to do with it though. I don't think Europeans are any more likely to abuse their children than anyone else.


----------



## guestmama9972 (Jun 5, 2003)

James Dobson does have a doctorate in psychology from a university in California. I can't remember where exactly but it is a well known school like USC. I haven't read what he says about spanking so I can't really comment about that. But I do appreciate what he says on some other issues like the importance of the family and speaking out against the prevalence of smut in the media.

I can't stand the Pearl's advice or Mr. Ezzo's. I haven't met anyone who practiced the beatings that the Pearls recommend, but I do know some people that took a class at church based on Ezzo's books and philosophies. Scary. It is almost like these people become brainwashed! My bro and SIL went to a couple of Ezzo classes before they knew what he advocated, and they quit when they observed the "cult-like" behavior of the Ezzo disciples.

This may be rather random, but there is a verse in Proverbs about "folly is bound up in the heart of a child but the rod of correction drives it far from him" more or less. As a child I thought that the verse advocated spaking. I recently heard the idea that the word "rod" actually refers to the same implement that a shepherd uses to guide his sheep. As in Psalm 23, "Your rod and your staff, they comfort me". It makes sense to me that a shepherd wouldn't use the rod to beat his sheep! Rather he uses it to gently guide them and to protect them from predators. In our home we don't use the physical shepherds rod, of course, but I like the idea that we are guiding our girls along in their lives.

Ok. That's it. My vote goes to the Pearls.


----------



## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna*
I don't see what being white European men has to do with it though. I don't think Europeans are any more likely to abuse their children than anyone else.

The culture surrounding those who did the translation of the earlier texts into English heavily influenced the word choices they made. The translation was done by white European men in a time of severe male domination and patriarchy. You can see it's influence heavily in the word choices they made in translation. I don't think Debra was saying that Europeans today are anymore likely to abuse kids than anyone else. It's about who did the translation centuries ago that are often used today to support abusive practices in the name of Christianity, especially by the Ezzos, Pearls, and Dobson followers.


----------



## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sophmama*
The culture surrounding those who did the translation of the earlier texts into English heavily influenced the word choices they made. The translation was done by white European men in a time of severe male domination and patriarchy. You can see it's influence heavily in the word choices they made in translation. I don't think Debra was saying that Europeans today are anymore likely to abuse kids than anyone else. It's about who did the translation centuries ago that are often used today to support abusive practices in the name of Christianity, especially by the Ezzos, Pearls, and Dobson followers.

Sure, I don't doubt that there is cultural bias on the part of the translators, but I don't think European men are or were any more likely to give a translation that supports child abuse (which I don't think "train up" does, but regardless) than any other people.


----------



## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

Have you studied European history?

I think, today, Europe is, in many ways, more enlightened than US culture, but when the major translations were made (especially the King James Version,) Europe was a dark place for women, children, and people of color.

Have you read some of the sexist things Martain Luther or John Calvin have written? Say, off the top of my head, if a woman dies in childbirth, oh-well, not much was lost, Women were given absolutely no civil rights until 1840 (when they were given property rights in Britian because they were no longer considered their husband's property.)

Children were treated to the successor of Patrafamilias. Fathers, in a large sense, *owned* their wives and children.

Why did Adam, for example, get cursed with "hard work," farming the land, and Eve was cursed with "pain" in childbirth?

They're the same friggin Hebrew word, Estev(sp). So, in the 1800's men were able to enjoy labor saving farming equipment, but many pastors taught that women couldn't receive anastesia for a difficult labor because it would be undermining G-d's will for her to go through pain to give birth.

Translators!!!!

Same with Eve as, "Helpmeet."

Eve is no more "helpmeet" than G-d Himself, because 16 or the 20 times the Hebrew word appears in the Bible the "helper," is G-d (and the one getting helped is a human being.) Why is the only tim the word rendered, "helpmeet" when it was used for Eve?

Um...white people with penises.

...I would imagine small ones since they seem to need to take every opportunity to put other people in a servile position.


----------



## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Fascinating discussion....but I'd ask that we try and remain as close to the original post's topic as possible without veering to far afield. Thanks!


----------



## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

I think the culture that these ideas were formed out of is very important to understanding where we are today with the Ezzos, Pearls, and Dobsons. The patriarchal culture (lead/ dominated by European males) has everything to do with what happened in translation by these authors. If they hadn't been male and in a historic time of patriarchy that happened to be centered in Europe, the translation would have _very likely_ come out completely differently, and today we wouldn't be having this conversation. They all teach the same stuff, but to different severities.


----------



## August's Mama (May 21, 2004)

OMG I had no idea any of these lunatics existed. I am seriously drying the tears from my eyes as I type. The Pearls page is absolutely horrifying and makes me question freedom of press (not really but my god). I cannot believe that he advises training a baby by putting a toy out of reach and then hitting them if they go for it WTH?!?!?!?!
Urghhhhhhhhhhhhh, I am so so so so angry.
Kat


----------



## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paquerette*
I just want to say, I saw the thread title and immediately thought of Celebrity Death Match.







Not very Gentle, I know, but darn funny to one who watched too much MTV back in the day.







:

OMG, I'd LOVE to see the claymation on THAT match.














:


----------



## godusjourney (Apr 11, 2006)

I just had to post this. After reading this thread, I decided to look the 1st book (to train up a child) by the Pearls up on Amazon.com and read some reviews (btw, most of them were negative...I think it got 2 stars), but here are two reviews I found. Scary, huh?

"I find it interesting people that are opposed to this book are usually the ones that have the *little terrors* themselves. All to many times do we go into a place of business and hear a child screaming at his mother while she looks away. SHAMEFUL I say. I have whipped all of my kids and they are respectful to themselves, my husband, me and others. We live in a household of respect. A respect for EVERYONE in the house not just mom and dad. Sounds like some need to re-read Michael Pearl's book or write to them and ask questions if they don't understand, cause people, it is pretty clear on what NOT to do." She gave it 5 stars....

and another 5 star review that I couldn't figure out if it was sarcastic or for real, but he DID give it FIVE stars... so I dunno???...

"Finally! What this world will need in 20 years are subservient, unquestioning young men and women ready to carry out the will of God's most righteous servants: America's Christian Right. And this book will provide them in droves.

Please, please, PLEASE adhere to the teachings in this book. America will need more cannon fodder soon and your children will fulfill that role perfectly."

SCARY...


----------



## sophmama (Sep 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *godusjourney*
"Finally! What this world will need in 20 years are subservient, unquestioning young men and women ready to carry out the will of God's most righteous servants: America's Christian Right. And this book will provide them in droves.

Please, please, PLEASE adhere to the teachings in this book. America will need more cannon fodder soon and your children will fulfill that role perfectly."

SCARY...









:


----------



## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *godusjourney*
and another 5 star review that I couldn't figure out if it was sarcastic or for real, but he DID give it FIVE stars... so I dunno???...

"Finally! What this world will need in 20 years are subservient, unquestioning young men and women ready to carry out the will of God's most righteous servants: America's Christian Right. And this book will provide them in droves.

Please, please, PLEASE adhere to the teachings in this book. America will need more cannon fodder soon and your children will fulfill that role perfectly."

SCARY...

I would be almost sure that that is sarcastic based on the use of the term "cannon fodder." I've been wrong before, but as far as I know, that is exclusively a derrogetory term. Other than that, though, it could easily pass for something a Pearl person might actually say.


----------



## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

My guess is that it's sarcasm. Although it would probably go right over the head of your average Pearl supporter







:


----------



## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

Over the head of a Pearl supporter is a relatively low elevation.


----------



## CaraboosMama (Mar 31, 2005)

I think Dobson is scarier and more subversive mainly because he is more accepted by the mainstream As many posters mentioned, Ezzo and Pearl would be quickly rejected by most reasonable people. But because Dobson says some reasonable things mixed with with shite...many people percieve him as a wholesome authority figure. I hate living so close to his "Focus on the Family" center - it is such a misnomer for his beliefs!!


----------



## Wugmama (Feb 10, 2005)

I just saw someone post that compared to Ezzo, Dobson is Dr. Sears. I don't think so.

~Tracy


----------



## akfirefly76 (Aug 9, 2005)

My family visited a business associate this weekend. They have two kids (5 yr old boy and 20 month girl). My daughter is 18 months.

My daughter was curious, and constantly wanting to explore the new house. Their house is VERY nice. lots of expensive objects, art, breakable things... all at floor and baby levels. candles burning in the corner on the floor, etc. Things that my daughter would go after in a second.

Their daughter just sat at the table and blinked. I never saw this child laugh, or smile, or act like anything other than a little china doll. The parents kept watching me and my husband chasing our daughter, they'd look at each other, shake their head and smile.

Reading that page on the Pearls... that so seems like something they would do. Respect and obedience are big with them.

But I look at the difference in our daughters. I'm SOOOO glad mine is curious about the world and not afraid of being herself.


----------



## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
I read some of James Dobson. I liked him fine, but used what I liked and tossed the rest.

Yeah, my SIL and bro are big fans of Babywise, but they don't make their kids cry it out and she's nursed them all until they were at least three. They're totally gentle, kind parents.

But they still give Babywise all the time as baby gifts.







:


----------



## sagira (Mar 8, 2003)

The Pearls make me sick to the stomach.. and very sad for the children whose parents espouse those principles uke









Dobson makes me angry









Ezzo makes me laugh in an evil way (in: it's so ridiculous, it's ludicrous sort of way) and then









I'm usually a gentle person too, but oh boy, Dobson makes me red in the face. The Pearls are so scary and cultish, I always feel like I'm dealing with closet sadists, criminals and atrocious creepy acts.

So definitely the Pearls


----------



## my3peanuts (Nov 25, 2006)

The Pearls by far.... Then Ezzo...


----------



## IfMamaAintHappy (Apr 15, 2002)

Pearls
Ezzo
Dobson

in that order. I dont think Dobson is any more insidious than the others. You just dont get to hear them like you hear Dobson's voice on the radio. I dont think Dobson's any worse than Tedd Tripp, actually (Shepherding a Child's Heart). But knowing Pearl and Ezzo devotees, cultlike followers, and how their perspective on children in general is so different from anyone elses.. I think their stuff is worse. Their stuff goes so much deeper than just correction and punishment, which is all the further I really see Dobson and Tripp going. But that's my perspective, and maybe mine alone.


----------



## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia* 
Pearl Link

oh.my.god.
wtf? the baby will associate pain with the word "no"? i have decided that these people are the scariest.







: i kind of feel sick.


----------



## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elmh23* 
Scariest: Pearls
Second Scariest: Dobson
Third Scariest: Ezzo

Same for me.


----------



## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

CaraboosMama;5552254 Ezzo would be quickly rejected by most reasonable people. [/QUOTE said:


> i think ezzo is widely accepted. not only does he have growing kids god's way, he also authors babywise...toddlerwise, etc. my husband and i took the "bible study" GKGW and we were appalled!! i had heard of it, but went into it not really knowing anything about it. we took the class because my husband was on staff at the church and we had too. i wasn't just offended by the spanking and physical descipline advocated, but they make you feel like a bad parent if you let teenagers call you by your first name, and a billion other crazy things. i didn't even know what to say about these dated videos. the ezzos have no humor and NO personality....and they don't teach anything about having a loving relationship with your children.....just how to control them through abuse. btw-we left that church after a year because it was AWFUL!


----------



## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DebraBaker* 
For me, "Train," has subtle negative connotations.

It could just be me.

You train dogs.

You train some plants to grow, "Here." and nowhere else.

Train has no notion of thinking for one's self.

Dedicate is more something that's addressing the parent's heart. If the one reading the verse (we're presuming a parent,) is having their own heart and perspective addressed (please do this rather than force that other person to do this,) it's more gentle, and more fair because it's a bit like the kid arguing that Jimmy over there doesn't (fill in the blank,) and the mother says, "I'm talking to you, not Jimmy." It's like the verse that says, "Children obey your parents." It doesn't say, "parents force your children to obey you," but rather says, "Parents do not provoke your children." Everyone gets instruction, but not to force the other party.

Dedicate a child in the way he should go, has a sense of gentle commitment.

Train has visions of whips and chairs.

I disagree. I think sickos like ezzo and pearl have give a negative assocoation to the word "train". just like "time-out" is a bad word now, but it just means a break....certainly not humiliation. to be trained in something shouldn't bring a visual to mind of a child being hurt, yk? i have been trained in my field.


----------



## leelee2 (May 18, 2006)

Nothing gets my blood pressure to rise more than reading all about these horrible people. It makes me want to start a movement or something in the churches. I wonder what churches indorse these people and which don't? I'm a Christian but I haven't been able to find a church I'm comfortable with.
My vote would be a tie between the two I guess. They're both really horrible and I don't see how people can belileve this ****!














:







:














:


----------

