# Okay you AP Mamas How about this one?



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

My very AP SIL just called for advice.

Since, as many who read my posts know, I am not very AP (though I am GD) I wanted to run this by you all, before giving my advice here, which I think may be veering to mainstream.

Here is the situation:

My nephew was at a b-day party. He is 8. My SIL dropped him off. My kids were not invited (boys only) but I was there because the mom giving the party is a friend and I was helping her bring the food out etc...

There were several activity stations (bouncy, pony ride, magician). The mom giving the party divided the boys into three groups and each started at a different area. My DN was assigned to start at the magician.

He immediatly went up to the mom giving the party and asked if he could start at the bouncy instead. She said "no" but that he would get his turn.

He is used to negotiating with adults about stuff (at home and "democratic" private school). He started asking "well could I trade with someone" "No." and "But I want to do the bouncy first." etc..

She said "no, sorry" about 5 times and then we he kept going she said. "Look this is what we are doing, My God, doesnt' your mother EVER say no to you." She did not yell but she sounded exasperated.

He pouted for the rest of the party and when his mom picked him up he told her.

She was very upset and feels that "no one else should discipline" her child.' She wants to call the woman and tell her she was out of line.

My view is that at age 8, you have to be able to deal with other people and that the other mother was not out of line. But like I said, I am not very AP and want your input.

What do you think????


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## mama_mojo (Jun 5, 2005)

I think by dropping him off at the party she was accepting the rules. Was the mother supposed to call her when this happened? Who was supposed to discipline him since she was not present?

I won't comment on the other woman's words as I don't think that's really the point.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I think you're both right, really...

I think that the other mother was rude, yes. Granted, it was probably a really stressful day for her, and she's probably used to children just doing as they're told, but that doesn't make it okay to power trip on this kid and speak rudely to him. Would it really have ruined everything if he traded with another kid? I know that when Rain was this age, it was really important for her to be with friends, and being in one group when her good buddies were in another would have really interfered with her enjoyment of the party. If this was a party of adults, an adult with strong feelings about it would probably have just traded without even asking, or done his own thing anyway.

On the other hand, it does sound like your nephew is lacking in a good understanding of how things work out in mainstreamia. When my daughter was 8, if she was doing soccer or theatre or whatever, I made sure she understood that the expectation would be that she would do whatever the adult in charge asked of her, unless it felt unsafe to her, and that she could tell me about it later if she needed to, but at the time good manners and the way of the world dictated that she just go along with it. We never had any real problems with it - occasionally she would try something once and not want to go back because she felt that the adults in charge were disrespectful, but at 8 she was okay with sucking it up for an hour or two.

I also think the mom was remiss in not staying with her son, at least for a few minutes, to help him figure the lay of the land out a bit. Unless I knew the other parent at least somewhat, I would have done that.

Dar


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## ashleep (Jul 20, 2004)

Actually what the mother said was what got me, not that she disciplined him.

Quote:

My God, doesnt' your mother EVER say no to you." She did not yell but she sounded exasperated.
I would expect my child to be disciplined if I left her at a bday party, but to me that kind of comment isn't discipline.

And I agree withDar, an 8 yr old should know that some adults do things differently, and some things aren't up for discussion like they are at home

nak a squirmy baby so can't type more


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

Hmmm.....a lot of times with things in the classroom at our preschool (a really child-centered program), we would let a child try their solution (ie trade with someone) but if nobody wanted to, then they would have to deal with that, because that's life.

but when we went on our field trip, for example, each class had a different starting point and everybody just had to cope. Fortunately, nobody was upset, they all seemed to understand that everyone would get to ride the wagon, see the animals inside and outside, etc. (It was a farm.)

I think the birthday party probably falls under the 'do what you're told to do and cope' personally. I think an 8 year old should be able to understand that he *will* get to do everything eventually. I think the mom did the right thing because if you let one kid 'trade', then you might start a disaster.

Kind of like preschool, in their usual setting with the adults they're with all the time, we would let them try their own thing, when they're in a new situation with other adults making the rules, they follow them....that's just life.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

I completely agree with Dar.

Oh, and I do think that your SIL needs to take this as a learning experience (and help her son see it as such) and hold her tongue with regards to the other mother.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

I agree with PP - it's the party-giver's rules that go. I'll bet though, the other mother would not have been so angry if the SIL hadn't said the denigrating comment about "never saying no." I imagine that was what she was really reacting to underneath and probably (maybe?) would've told him to suck it up if not for the comment. Because then you're getting at parenting choices.

Eight year olds will often try changing the rules using verbal kung-fu, in my elementary-school librarian experience, even if the other mother had "taught" her son that the party-giver was in charge or what the rules were. They're just sorta like that, developmentally. It's the party-giver (or librarian) that has to stay the grownup.









Maybe she could call the other mother and just let her know that that particular comment was very hurtful?


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## saritabeth (Jun 25, 2004)

I think that If a child is going to a birthday party he/she would know the rules of the house. The mom ought to feel comfortable enough to leave her 8 yr old who can follow the house rules and be redirected if he/she is acting out.

maybe not the nicest way to say it, but I might get exhasperated with an 8yr old nagging me when I already said no.

She souldn't have hurt feelings about it. She should teach her son how to not nag people.

flame away


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## oldcrunchymom (Jun 26, 2002)

I agree with Dar. The mom was out of line in her comments to the 8yo, and the 8yo should be old enough to respect the rules after an attempt at polite negotiation.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
My view is that at age 8, you have to be able to deal with other people and that the other mother was not out of line.

I totally agree with you. I think nagging your host is really bad manners.
I do think the woman's nasty comment about his Mother was totally inappropriate though You don't badmouth a kid's parent-that's just wrong.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maya44*
But like I said, I am not very AP and want your input.

I don't get why this is an AP issue. In my book AP doesn't mean my kids get whatever they want and run the ship. We cooperate, and I try to make situations in our house work for everyone as often as possible, but I don't think that in anyway = bad manners, and my kids pouting when they don't get their way. I think it has lead to good negotiation skills, and very creative children when it comes to problem solving, but I also know in this situation, my kids would also be able to recognize that this mother had plan, and it would be a good idea to help out by being cooperative. They know that thier feelings are not the only one's that count.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmb123*

I don't get why this is an AP issue.


I was just saying that, since I don't really negotiate at all with my kids when they are this age, I know I come at this from a different point of view.

Just wanted the view of others who did things differently. I recognized that under the circumstances present they might very well reach the same conclusions but wanted input.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
I was just saying that, since I don't really negotiate at all with my kids when they are this age, I know I come at this from a different point of view.


I don't mean to hijack this thread but this statement intrigues me. How is it that you don't negotiate with an 8-year old? I really mean that even though it looks like it reads in a snarky way. Eight year olds are big kids, how do you not negotiate with them? Does that mean that what you say goes - and they are not permitted to question it? And if they are permitted to question it you wouldn't change your opinion no matter what argument they present?

I ask this as someone who doesn't yet have an 8-year old. I have a 5-year old. We have a rule that she is not permitted to negotiate about issues which revolve around safety but there are many things that we negotiate during the day - her questioning of my parenting have made me into a much better parent than I would have been otherwise. Her questioning makes me think about my decisions and many times I do rethink them and see that I am being completely rigid for absolutely no reason. SHe has made me into a much more flexible person.

AP goes hand in hand with this - I question vaccinations. I question traditional discipline. I question the types of foods that I eat. It is a natural progression to me that I have a daughter who questions when she sees something as being an injustice or just wrong. I don't see her desire to negotiate as anything but positive - it can be maddening, frustrating, exasperating but in the end I am so glad I have a daughter who questions. I hope that she is getting that from me!

In answer to your original point, I don't think that the child was wrong to question the hostess. If she had given him a reasonable explanation then perhaps he wouldn't have had to ask 5 times. If all he was hearing was "no, no, no, no" then I understand why he was persistent. It may not be everyone's preference to be questioned but I don't think he was wrong to do so. I do think she was wrong to make that comment about his mother, it was a cheap shot and totally out of line.

My yardstick for measuring what I think is right and wrong is to reverse the roles. If the mother was the partygoer and was asking the child if she could trade places and the child kept saying, "no, no, no" without an explanation, we would probably think it was rude or disrespectful to speak to someone that way. If he had made the comment "doesn't your mother ever say no to you" to her, we would all think it was terribly rude and disrespectful to speak to an adult that way. Why doesn't it hold true in reverse?


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

I think that your friend should use this as a learning opportunity...and teach her son that their is no harm in following the rules occasionally...I mean really there was no reason why he should start on the bouncer over any other toy so what difference would it make..sounds like he was negotiating for the sake of negotiation to see if he could get things the way he wanted them(he's 8..that's old enough to try to manipulate the way things go to his advantage)

As a mother who has many birthday parties and who is ap/gd I would probably have been exasperated but I also would have stuck to my guns and not negotiated the way things were set up...you do it for one, you do it for others and then things get behind...she did have a good reason for sticking to her way of doing things...

I think maybe the mom was a little bit overwhelmed and she shouldn't have said what she did about the other mom...I think maybe if this child has been taught negotiation then maybe he would have understood if she had given him her reason for not changing the setup for him(others will want to choose, it will delay things etc etc.) and maybe if she had asked him to think up a really good reason to start at the bouncy instead of the other toy..then maybe he wouldn't have nagged so much.

Anyway...I would suggest your friend leave it. The mom said the wrong thing but no one is perfect...I get exasperated and say the wrong thing and I know much better.
She should talk to her son and ask him now why he preferred to start at the bouncy...maybe he had a good reason, maybe he didn't. I would suggest she tell her son to make sure he has a really good reason for trying to change the rules before negotiating.

It's important to teach our children how to question things and try to change the things that are wrong and not obey rules that are detrimental but if you teach them to negotiate everything then I think you are just creating someone who is nitpicking and trying to change the world around them for their own benefit not for the benefit of others.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads*
I don't mean to hijack this thread but this statement intrigues me. How is it that you don't negotiate with an 8-year old? I really mean that even though it looks like it reads in a snarky way. Eight year olds are big kids, how do you not negotiate with them? Does that mean that what you say goes - and they are not permitted to question it? And if they are permitted to question it you wouldn't change your opinion no matter what argument they present?


Well by "negotiate" I mean a give and take process where you try to reach a [compromise] position on which all can agree.

Do I do that? No. Not with an 8 y.o.

What I say is the rule. That does NOT mean that my kids are not welcome to QUESTION the rules (at home) or that I am unwilling to LISTEN and sometimes make the decision to change my mind.

But I may decide that I don't want to change things. I ultimately make the decsion and sometimes I decide I am not going to change things.

My children are also welcome to let me know that they are not happy with those rules. I expect them to obey the rules, but if they don't there is no real punishment.

I do expect them to go along with the rules others set. And so long as they don't feel that those rules are unsafe or truly unjust (and not getting to play on the bouncy first does not qualify as unjustice) for them or others, I expect them not to question those rules, unless questioning is clearly welcome.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls*
It's important to teach our children how to question things and try to change the things that are wrong and not obey rules that are detrimental but if you teach them to negotiate everything then I think you are just creating someone who is nitpicking and trying to change the world around them for their own benefit not for the benefit of others.

This isn't specifically responding to you allgirls, but don't you (as in everyone here) think that if this woman had given a reason why it had to be done that way (as in, "There are a lot of kids here and this is the only way to make sure everyone has a turn at everything") that the child would have said, "OK" and went on with things. Because she just said "no" he probably didn't understand why not. I bet the woman would have told an adult why it couldn't be done differently, and therefore I think she should have been willing to tell this child. He was problem-solving and she wasn't willing to explain why the problem-solving wasn't working in this particular case.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

I wouldn't be mad at the woman. It was her party and that's how they do things there. I would talk about my son's feelings with him though.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee*
This isn't specifically responding to you allgirls, but don't you (as in everyone here) think that if this woman had given a reason why it had to be done that way (as in, "There are a lot of kids here and this is the only way to make sure everyone has a turn at everything") that the child would have said, "OK" and went on with things. Because she just said "no" he probably didn't understand why not. I bet the woman would have told an adult why it couldn't be done differently, and therefore I think she should have been willing to tell this child. He was problem-solving and she wasn't willing to explain why the problem-solving wasn't working in this particular case.

That's a really good point. She was definitely dismissing him because he was a child and that's not very nice. If I were the mom though, I would just ignore that woman and talk to my son about the incident so we could process it and learn from it.
We have big chaotic family parties with my family and neighbors and all that and I can see something snippy coming out of my mouth (to adult or child) but thankfully people understand that party planning/managing is chaotic and I've never gotten flak for it.


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## mamakay (Apr 8, 2005)

I think the 8 year old needs to understand that sometimes people can be unreasonable for a wide variety of reasons, and that to function in society, you need to come to terms with that.
Lol...the boys needs to learn how to say "I believe you're being unreasonable, but this is your house and I'll respect that" and then let it go.
(Or maybe I'm just going to have a rude kid...)


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## Victorian (Jan 2, 2003)

I agree with the others that the mom can use it as a *teachable moment*. But, it seems to me from the "never tell you no" comment that these two mother's have a history that is being taken out on the child. (and it was RUDE)

V.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamakay*
I think the 8 year old needs to understand that sometimes people can be unreasonable for a wide variety of reasons, and that to function in society, you need to come to terms with that.
Lol...the boys needs to learn how to say "I believe you're being unreasonable, but this is your house and I'll respect that" and then let it go.
(Or maybe I'm just going to have a rude kid...)

Well that would be good, but it's asking a lot of an 8-year-old to formulate that complex of a concept and sentence, and my guess is that the woman involved wouldn't have been any happier than being told by an 8-year-old that she's being unreasonable than she was with the questioning.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar*
I think you're both right, really...
Dar

I agree, it's a little bit of both. The party mom (sorry, didn't know what else to call her) was very rude to the child IMO. I wouldn't think it necessary to talk to the child that way. As was stated earlier I don't think it would have really screwed up everything if the kid would have found someone to trade with. Big deal, everyone could be happy and carry on. So yes, I would be less than thrilled if someone talked to my child that way.

I also agree that around those ages a parent might want to do a little educating about how the rest of the world often sees children. That way in those situations the kid can (as Dar stated, and as my kids do as well) "suck it up for a couple of hours". I wouldn't have left my child if I didn't know the people well.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee*
This isn't specifically responding to you allgirls, but don't you (as in everyone here) think that if this woman had given a reason why it had to be done that way (as in, "There are a lot of kids here and this is the only way to make sure everyone has a turn at everything") that the child would have said, "OK" and went on with things. Because she just said "no" he probably didn't understand why not. I bet the woman would have told an adult why it couldn't be done differently, and therefore I think she should have been willing to tell this child. He was problem-solving and she wasn't willing to explain why the problem-solving wasn't working in this particular case.


absolutely...and the woman is definitely not treating the child with the respect that is given an adult...that said...when dealing with people who don't parent the way that I do(and most don't) I pick and choose my battles and use it as and opportunity to educate my child. Odds are the child will encounter this many many times and needs to learn how to deal with how people do things in other homes else he will spend his childhood in constant battle.

it also seems odd that the child didn't ask why he couldn't make the change...my kids asked why to everything...but maybe he did and she brushed him off with "because I said so" like many adults do with kids.


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## mamakay (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee*
Well that would be good, but it's asking a lot of an 8-year-old to formulate that complex of a concept and sentence, and my guess is that the woman involved wouldn't have been any happier than being told by an 8-year-old that she's being unreasonable than she was with the questioning.

You think?
I know a few 8 year olds who I *think* are capeable of understanding things on that level.
I remember being 3rd to 4th gradeish and being totally freaked out by families who did things differently than my family did. But it wasn't too hard for me to understand that other people had different ways.
I also remember that feeling of "This is stupid. You're not being fair!" that I could never quite articulate into "unreasonable".
In the situation described in the OP, I'm sure "party mom" wouldn't have liked being told by an 8 year old that she was being unreasonable. But she was being just that.
I know birthday parties are stressful...I'm sure party mom was feeling a little tense....but I think it would have been better for everyone if the boy had just said his peace and moved on.
7-9 is a tough age. You're treated sorta sub-human but expected to "suck it up" like an adult. I think learning linguistic skills to express yourself in a civilized way would be cathartic at that age.
That said, my little boy's not even two yet, so I'm quite possibly way off.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Seems to me that people are starting to make on awful lot of assumptions here. We don't know that the party mom didn't say "I'm sorry, I really can't discuss this now because..." or that she didn't give a reason why she didn't want to change her system when the boy asked. OP might not have heard everything, after all. And even if she didn't, I think its really unreasonable to expect a host to adapt her style to another parent's style for each interaction. I mean, there were how many kids there? And the host is supposed to say, OK, I can give directions to Jimmy but I have to negotiate and give reasons with Suzy and Johny needs to be told in a quiet voice and Jenny gets her instructions in French?

I don't understand the boy's mom's complaint, actually. She was upset because someone else "disciplined" her child? Um, I actually don't see any discipline involved in the situation. Child badged busy party host (must have been huge party with that many activities) repeatedly, which was rude of him. Party mom does get snappish, which she shouldn't have done but I totally understand why it happened. But where is the discipline involved? She didn't give him a time out, spank him or do something else -- something like that I could see the boy's mom being upset about. She simply lost her cool.

While the party mom should have kept her cool in a perfect world, seems pretty harsh to demand it and assume that she isn't respectful of children. Shoot, if an adult guest had kept coming at me and repeated a request that I had already said I couldn't accommodate, I would lose it. And I know that I'm not my best with lots of kid party craziness going on around me, so, while I'd try my best, I would almost certainly snap in this sort of situation too. Its not that I disrespect kids, its that I don't keep my cool when hosting a huge party where someone is being difficult.

Boys mom needs to explain that when you are a guest at someone's house, you follow the house rules. Makes no difference that you are a child or an adult, its about the role of guest and host, not age.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Victorian*
But, it seems to me from the "never tell you no" comment that these two mother's have a history that is being taken out on the child. (and it was RUDE)

V.

ITA. I can understand that the woman was stressed, and probably felt her temper flare with the constant questions. But naming the childs mother seems pretty personal and pointed.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
Seems to me that people are starting to make on awful lot of assumptions here. We don't know that the party mom didn't say "I'm sorry, I really can't discuss this now because..." or that she didn't give a reason why she didn't want to change her system when the boy asked. OP might not have heard everything, after all. And even if she didn't, I think its really unreasonable to expect a host to adapt her style to another parent's style for each interaction. I mean, there were how many kids there? And the host is supposed to say, OK, I can give directions to Jimmy but I have to negotiate and give reasons with Suzy and Johny needs to be told in a quiet voice and Jenny gets her instructions in French?

All we know is what was in the OP and I based my reaction on that. I don't assume anything more or less than that, but if that is what happened then I think the party mom was wrong for a few reasons. I didn't hear anything about some kids needing to hear things in a quiet voice and some kids needing to hear in French, though if there were kids there who spoke a foreign language I image the party mom would have had a translator available. What I read was that this boy was asking if he could do things a different way. I don't think the party mom should have had to do things differently, but I think the respectful thing would be to quickly explain why it couldn't be done differently instead of just saying NO repeatedly, which in fact took longer, and then to insult both him and his mother.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
I don't understand the boy's mom's complaint, actually. She was upset because someone else "disciplined" her child? Um, I actually don't see any discipline involved in the situation. Child badged busy party host (must have been huge party with that many activities) repeatedly, which was rude of him. Party mom does get snappish, which she shouldn't have done but I totally understand why it happened. But where is the discipline involved? She didn't give him a time out, spank him or do something else -- something like that I could see the boy's mom being upset about. She simply lost her cool.

If it were me, I would have been upset with how she talked to my child. It could be that was her complaint and she didn't know how to explain how she was feeling. I'm not sure. I don't think it's fair to cateogorize a child asking questions that aren't completely answered as "badgering". He only continued to ask because the party mom was unwilling to simply say, "That won't work because . . . " which is not an unreasonable expectation, would not have taken long, and is what adults do naturally with each other. I agree that the boy wasn't "disciplined" by the party mom and I wouldn't have gotten too upset if I were the mom but I would have felt a bit put out by how she talked to this child.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
While the party mom should have kept her cool in a perfect world, seems pretty harsh to demand it and assume that she isn't respectful of children. Shoot, if an adult guest had kept coming at me and repeated a request that I had already said I couldn't accommodate, I would lose it. And I know that I'm not my best with lots of kid party craziness going on around me, so, while I'd try my best, I would almost certainly snap in this sort of situation too. Its not that I disrespect kids, its that I don't keep my cool when hosting a huge party where someone is being difficult.

She wasn't respectful of this particular child at this particular child. I have no way of knowing if she is disrespectful of children in general or if the stress of the party got to her. And he wasn't repeating a request. He asked if one thing could be done and the party mom said no, so he asked if something else could be done. Different requests. If an adult asked another adult if something could be done a different way, the natural way for an adult to respond would be to explain why it couldn't - not to just say "no" over and over again to each question, and then complain that the adult didn't hear the word "no" enough. I still don't think this child was being difficult, the child was simply asking questions. I didn't see anything to show that the questions were mean-spirited or disprespectful. An answer as to why it wouldn't work to do things differently would have probably satisfied the child, just as it would satisfy an adult.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
Boys mom needs to explain that when you are a guest at someone's house, you follow the house rules. Makes no difference that you are a child or an adult, its about the role of guest and host, not age.

I don't know if I'd want to tell my daughter that. What if the house rule is simply wrong? That can happen. I would explain that not all adults like being asked questions by children and if an adult won't answer a question to not take it personally or get too upset but to just try to enjoy the activity.


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## buffybutt (Apr 8, 2005)

QUOT by maya44

My children are also welcome to let me know that they are not happy with those rules. I expect them to obey the rules, but if they don't there is no real punishment. [/QUOTE]

Im new at this so please if you can give me positive feedback, I dont have an 8yr old yet, he is still in my belly









My question to the gd is, What happens when there is no real punishment? Now I have to let you know that I dont believe in spanking, hitting, screaming, yelling, those kinds of discipline at all. And yes I am very very new to this. I do have nephews and have been around kids alot and to my understanding at least with them, if they dont have set boundries then they walk all over there mom. So if they dont follow the rules and there is no real punishment, how does your household work?

I need all the help that I can get, this site is great and so is all of your feedback, thank you kindly


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee*
I didn't hear anything about some kids needing to hear things in a quiet voice and some kids needing to hear in French, though if there were kids there who spoke a foreign language I image the party mom would have had a translator available.

OK, the comments about French ect. were a metaphor, guys. It was trying to make a point, not be a literal commentary.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee*
I don't think it's fair to cateogorize a child asking questions that aren't completely answered as "badgering". He only continued to ask because the party mom was unwilling to simply say, "That won't work because . . . " which is not an unreasonable expectation, would not have taken long, and is what adults do naturally with each other.

By my count on the OP, this child asked at least 7!! times to change the situation. In my book, that would be badgering. And we don't actually know what the party mom did or didn't try to say.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee*
I don't know if I'd want to tell my daughter that. What if the house rule is simply wrong? That can happen. I would explain that not all adults like being asked questions by children and if an adult won't answer a question to not take it personally or get too upset but to just try to enjoy the activity.

I agree that children need instructions about what to do if they are asked to do something unsafe, unhealthy, or just plain wrong. But its not continueing to ask for something different. Its probably to call home (or politely as the host to call) so that the parent can come get the child.


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## obiandelismom (May 31, 2005)

Ok, am I the only one sitting here cracking up over the prase "party mom"? I think I want a t-shirt with that printed on it.

ON the subject, I have to say that I would probably have reacted like the party mom did. I wouldn't have said what she said, but I would have been exasperated, and I would have THOUGHT what she said. I don't think it's outrageous for us to teach our kids that there are times that they just need to go with the flow - in this case, I'd say that it's a matter of realizing how stressed the party mom was, and considering her feelings. I do think that respectful parenting needs to be balanced by a very healthy understanding of OTHER people's needs, or it risks turning out kids with serious entitlement issues...


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *buffybutt*
QUOT by maya44

My children are also welcome to let me know that they are not happy with those rules. I expect them to obey the rules, but if they don't there is no real punishment.

Im new at this so please if you can give me positive feedback, I dont have an 8yr old yet, he is still in my belly









My question to the gd is, What happens when there is no real punishment? Now I have to let you know that I dont believe in spanking, hitting, screaming, yelling, those kinds of discipline at all. And yes I am very very new to this. I do have nephews and have been around kids alot and to my understanding at least with them, if they dont have set boundries then they walk all over there mom. So if they dont follow the rules and there is no real punishment, how does your household work?

I need all the help that I can get, this site is great and so is all of your feedback, thank you kindly[/QUOTE]
I'm not Maya, but I remember her from a meal time discussion and our approach was similar. You cook the food, get input from the kids if they want to give input, keep them in mind when deciding on what to cook, and then you serve it. Everyone is welcome to eat. If they express disatisfaction with the meal, they don't have to eat it. They are perfectly welcome to share their feelings about it. I'm not going to stop in the middle of my dinner and jump out of my chair to cook them a different meal, nor are they going to be forced to eat it or disciplined into eating it or punished for not eating it. If they still decide that dinner is not for them when dinner is over, I can help them get a bowl of cereal or pbj sandwich or something easy of their choice. Sometimes they can get their own food and sometimes dinner isn't so hectic that I can't help them get an alternative food during dinner. But if things are crazy and I can't help them until after dinner, that's just the way things are. No need to have a drama about it or try to convince them to eat dinner or convince them that if they don't eat dinner they will be hungry or convince them that I'm unhappy that my dinner is interrupted (because it wouldn't be).

There are very few situations in which I feel any sort of crafted punishment is necessary.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *buffybutt*
QUOT by maya44

My children are also welcome to let me know that they are not happy with those rules. I expect them to obey the rules, but if they don't there is no real punishment.

*Im new at this so please if you can give me positive feedback, I dont have an 8yr old yet, he is still in my belly









My question to the gd is, What happens when there is no real punishment? Now I have to let you know that I dont believe in spanking, hitting, screaming, yelling, those kinds of discipline at all. And yes I am very very new to this. I do have nephews and have been around kids alot and to my understanding at least with them, if they dont have set boundries then they walk all over there mom. So if they dont follow the rules and there is no real punishment, how does your household work?

I need all the help that I can get, this site is great and so is all of your feedback, thank you kindly*[/QUOTE]

What happens? I tell them I expect better of them next time. I tell them that "I don't like it that you..." I do not act very mad or like I am withdrawing affection, but I make my feelings known.

And they do have set boundries. Those are the rules. The rules don't go away. You don't get to "pay" for breaking the rules by being punished. You simply have to come to a feeling within yourself that you want to abide by the rules of where you live.

I have found that when I voice my expectations with confidence that they will be met, they are, most of the time. On some level I don't expect them to even do so 100 percent of the time. No one is perfect and that is just fine with me.

For me this way of parenting with clear rules and expectations, but no punishment is the best way to bring peace and joy to our family.

I should add that I do enforce some logical consequences to protect my child or another child or the property of others (Will pick up a child running for the street etc...)

And I will enforce a logical consequence to deal with sibling issues, like if you guys are fighting over the TV it goes off until you can work something out or can fight in a manner where I don't have to hear it! (just leave me out of it).


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *obiandelismom*
Ok, am I the only one sitting here cracking up over the prase "party mom"? I think I want a t-shirt with that printed on it.

ON the subject, I have to say that I would probably have reacted like the party mom did. I wouldn't have said what she said, but I would have been exasperated, and I would have THOUGHT what she said. I don't think it's outrageous for us to teach our kids that there are times that they just need to go with the flow - in this case, I'd say that it's a matter of realizing how stressed the party mom was, and considering her feelings. I do think that respectful parenting needs to be balanced by a very healthy understanding of OTHER people's needs, or it risks turning out kids with serious entitlement issues...

For me the basic question is whether it fair and reasonable to expect children to meet the needs of adults, or whether it is fair and reasonable to expect adults to meet the needs of children. No, I don't think this child needed to meet the adult's needs more than she should have met his very small need - a need to have a simple and quick explanation. I'll admit that's just my opinion but I'll put it out there.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *buffybutt*

My question to the gd is, What happens when there is no real punishment? Now I have to let you know that I dont believe in spanking, hitting, screaming, yelling, those kinds of discipline at all. And yes I am very very new to this. I do have nephews and have been around kids alot and to my understanding at least with them, if they dont have set boundries then they walk all over there mom. So if they dont follow the rules and there is no real punishment, how does your household work?


I don't think lack of punishment= no boundries. In our house there are expectations and boundries that we all know. We try to live by them, and when someone makes a mistake (including me), there are usually natural consequences that happen that make it unnecessary for me as the parent to "punish" them with some random punishment.
I personally am not into the whole "letting them know I'm disappointed in them" thing, because I don't like shaming. I figure, when I screw up, that would be the last thing I want to hear. Instead, I prefer to move on from problems once they've resolved.


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## buffybutt (Apr 8, 2005)

Thank you for the explanation, I like the way you handle things and I def will think about that. My childhood was so different, and I know that my family did the best that they could. I just know that I dont want to do it the same way that they did. I appreciate your time


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee*
For me the basic question is whether it fair and reasonable to expect children to meet the needs of adults, or whether it is fair and reasonable to expect adults to meet the needs of children. No, I don't think this child needed to meet the adult's needs more than she should have met his very small need - a need to have a simple and quick explanation. I'll admit that's just my opinion but I'll put it out there.

Bingo!

Also, I just don't think anarchy would've reigned had the party mom just accomodated this child--an invited GUEST in her home.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

ITA with Dar.









buffybutt - we often have discussions 'round here about discipline without punishment and rewards (aka: the Cult of Kohn







) stick around!


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

ITA with those who said that the "party mom" was out of line in the way she handled things, and that the child does need to learn to go with other people's ways when at their homes (before mom chooses to leave them places like that), so long as it is not harmful to them. It is an unfortunate truth that many adults will treat our children with disrespect, just as many adults will treat other adults with disrespect (though it seems to happen a lot more to children







).

Anywho- I didn't want to post just to agree with everyone







.

I posted b/c I am wondering- is anyone else thinking how crazy this party seems, how clearly this illustrates "simple is better"? I mean, seriously, I have seen so many people here say that "party mom" must've been so frazzled. Well....... I take a lesson from that- don't have such outrageous birthday parties for your kids that you can no longer be a happy/generous hostess. Maybe this woman did take on more than she could handle, and yeah- all of us say stupid things sometimes and don't always respond appropriately to other people's kids(or our own), etc. but- she is the one who planned this crazy party which "frazzled" her, it is not the child's fault.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Peppermint*
I posted b/c I am wondering- is anyone else thinking how crazy this party seems, how clearly this illustrates "simple is better"? I mean, seriously, I have seen so many people here say that "party mom" must've been so frazzled. Well....... I take a lesson from that- don't have such outrageous birthday parties for your kids that you can no longer be a happy/generous hostess. Maybe this woman did take on more than she could handle, and yeah- all of us say stupid things sometimes and don't always respond appropriately to other people's kids(or our own), etc. but- she is the one who planned this crazy party which "frazzled" her, it is not the child's fault.

Excellent point! Unless she is just a naturally frazzled person and it wouldn't matter what kind of party she had planned :LOL


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Okay, I have to respond to fill in the facts.

First party mom was not frazzled. She has a cutting sense of humor. She is a wonderful caring mom. She uses GD (in that she does not punish) but is not very AP (like me). Her remark was prob based on the fact that she strongly supspected (rightly) that my SIL in fact almost never says "no".

Party Mom is a third grade teacher too, a job which she shares (each work 2.5 days) with SIL's best friend so my SIL know her well and what she is like. She definitely knew that Party Mom is "no nonsense" type of person.

At the begining of the party she made the groups and said. "Okay that is what we are doing. We are not going to be moving around groups either...don't go up to your friends and be asking them to switch all around...that way madness lies"

This is how she talks to her classes and I know she is one of the most beloved teachers at her school.

I understand its not how my SIl relates to kids, but it should have come as no suprise!


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Well if she laid down the rules and the boy was asking over and over, he was in the wrong to keep badgering.

But the party mom was "more wrong". Her comment has no excuse. And I fail to see how your SIL's parenting method is any of her business:

Quote:

Her remark was prob based on the fact that she strongly supspected (rightly) that my SIL in fact almost never says "no".
Your SIL is the one raising her child and if she doesn't believe in saying "no" then that's her right.

Quote:

She has a cutting sense of humor. She is a wonderful caring mom. She uses GD (in that she does not punish)
I don't find anything in her comment to be GDish. It was humiliating and degrading and hit below the belt because it was a comment about his mother which probably made the boy feel very protective.

Just because someone doesn't hit doesn't mean that they are raising their children with positive discipline.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads*
I don't find anything in her comment to be GDish. It was humiliating and degrading and hit below the belt because it was a comment about his mother which probably made the boy feel very protective.

Just because someone doesn't hit doesn't mean that they are raising their children with positive discipline.


Well, I don't think it was quite that bad. I might call it rude, but humiliating and degrading, no. But it is certainly open to each person's perspective. I could see how you might think this.

And she is certainly not treating a child much differently than she would an adult. When we were at a family party once, someone asked her if she would open the windows because they like fresh air. She said no because her dd had alergies. The other person was like "well could we just open it for 20 minutes or so. And she said "um, no" And then this guy (who is a "big" surgeon and used to getting his way) said "well, I really don't think the pollen count is all that high today, come on its a beautiful day. And she was like "is there something about the word no they didn't teach you in medical school."

So like I said, she is just like this.

I guess she sounds horrible but she is really a wonderful person. She gave up all of her own sick and personal time, so that a teacher undergoing cancer treatment could use it instead. When you have a problem she is the first to pitch in. When my SIL had foot surgery last summer and couldnt' drive she went to the grocery store for her and cooked SIL's family meals twice a week.
She is fun and funny, but she is a little biting in her interactions at times.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Maya- I like how you defend your friend and well, ummm.....not so much for your SIL








, reminds me of me







.

Anywho- I am sure your friend is a decent person, you just asked what we all thought of the situation you outlined. Many gave your friend the benefit of the doubt, assuming she was "frazzled", you say she wasn't, and that that is her "way" or her sense of humor- ok, I wouldn't look for that "way" or sense of humor in a friend (I'm referring to the comment about your SIL to the child).

But- your clarifications do tell me one thing, your SIL should've better prepared her son for being at this woman's house, and taken a more active role.

On another topic- you keep saying you are "GD" but not "AP" what exactly does that mean to you? I don't get it. I could see if you were saying that you are punishment-free, or something like that, but I don't see some of the examples as very "GD", like your friend's way of doing things does not sound "GD" to me. As far as "AP" goes, that is about reaching a level of attachment through bonding principals like breastfeeding, babywearing, co-sleeping, etc. So- I am not sure how that fits in, many people AP and do not use GD and the other way around too I guess.

It seems to me that you are saying you are not a believer in punishment, but also not into more TCS-ish ways.

I know, so many acronyms- :LOL, but I really was just hoping for clarification as I don't get the "I'm GD but not AP" thing, your friend certainly does not sound GD to me, though I am sure she is a great friend to you







(not trying to bash her, just clarifying labels)


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Peppermint*
Maya- I like how you defend your friend and well, ummm.....not so much for your SIL







, reminds me of me







.

Anywho- I am sure your friend is a decent person, you just asked what we all thought of the situation you outlined. Many gave your friend the benefit of the doubt, assuming she was "frazzled", you say she wasn't, and that that is her "way" or her sense of humor- ok, I wouldn't look for that "way" or sense of humor in a friend (I'm referring to the comment about your SIL to the child).

But- your clarifications do tell me one thing, your SIL should've better prepared her son for being at this woman's house, and taken a more active role.

On another topic- you keep saying you are "GD" but not "AP" what exactly does that mean to you? I don't get it. I could see if you were saying that you are punishment-free, or something like that, but I don't see some of the examples as very "GD", like your friend's way of doing things does not sound "GD" to me. As far as "AP" goes, that is about reaching a level of attachment through bonding principals like breastfeeding, babywearing, co-sleeping, etc. So- I am not sure how that fits in, many people AP and do not use GD and the other way around too I guess.

It seems to me that you are saying you are not a believer in punishment, but also not into more TCS-ish ways.

I know, so many acronyms- :LOL, but I really was just hoping for clarification as I don't get the "I'm GD but not AP" thing, your friend certainly does not sound GD to me, though I am sure she is a great friend to you







(not trying to bash her, just clarifying labels)

Well you are right. I should say I am GD but not TCS.

And my friend well I guess I think she is GD because although she is certainly biting, this is her way with everyone not just kids.

And she interacts in such a funny and joyful way with her kids. Like we were with them at a restaurant and her little one who is five picked up the ketchup bottle and squeezed it and it went all over her. He being a typical kid who saw a HUGE mess that he had created said "I did't do it." And she did not try to make him own up to anything or get mad, she was just like "Owen sweetie, I think ya kinda did, but its okay, I know you didn't mean it." And he just said "I know mama, I am sorry" And she said "well I think dada is even sorrier that you didn't hit *him*, because he hates that shirt he is wearing and would have loved an excuse to throw it away." And her ds just cracked up.

I mean not everyone would consider her way "gentle" but I still like the way she deals with her kids.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
Her remark was prob based on the fact that she strongly supspected (rightly) that my SIL in fact almost never says "no".

That is what bothered me about the comment. That is was openly judgmental of your SIL's parenting....it would be one thing for her to make a comment like that to SIL ("Don't you ever say NO?") Still rude, but whatever. But to say it to the boy is inappropriate, and I would be pretty peeved if someone said that to my child.

She could have stopped the questions short without mentioning his mother ("The answer is no. I am sorry but I don't have time to discuss it further. Please go to your activity.")

Does the boy have a father? Why single out the mom like this? Seems like she took an opportunity to make a dig to me.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
Well you are right. I should say I am GD but not TCS.

I have often thought this reading your posts, Maya







The "not ap" comments would confuse me, because you *sound* ap to me (esp when reading threads in other forums). Ok, now I sound like a stalker, lol, but I remember reading on another forum about you pampering your sick dd's, and that sure does sound ap to me!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

yep, i think you are ap, too, maya. so there you go. we've decided for you. :LOL

...and i also thought, reading the OP, that i'm glad dh and i are not into the whole birthday party thing for kids! ugh, what a stress-fest!


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## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

*


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
I have often thought this reading your posts, Maya







The "not ap" comments would confuse me, because you *sound* ap to me (esp when reading threads in other forums). Ok, now I sound like a stalker, lol, but I remember reading on another forum about you pampering your sick dd's, and that sure does sound ap to me!










You and Piglet are very sweet. And while I guess I certainly try to be attuned to my kids needs, I certainly would have failed any test of "AP" when they were little, except for bf'ing, which I did using child led weaning.

But I did not co-sleep, never used a sling and used a stroller most of the time when we were out (1st dd couldn't stand being held and my others were always happy, left my girls with others from an early age etc...

I guess this has really gotten off topic, but its all been interesting to me.


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## mogit (May 4, 2004)

I have been following this thread for days.

Am I the only one who found Party Mom's remark to be sort of... funny?







:


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Um, I did.

As someone who does the big birthday party bashes, I can totally feel her pain trying to juggle a bazilliion details and oh gee whillikers.....
Guess you'd have to be there to hear her tone of voice and facial expression. I see her as laughing while she said it.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BusyMommy*
Um, I did.

As someone who does the big birthday party bashes, I can totally feel her pain trying to juggle a bazilliion details and oh gee whillikers.....
Guess you'd have to be there to hear her tone of voice and facial expression. I see her as laughing while she said it.










Wow you are right. She absolutely was.


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## MotherWhimsey (Mar 21, 2005)

I agree that what the woman said was rude, but when my child is 8, I expect her to be able to deal with situations that don't always go her way. I can see how that mom could have thought the boy had a huge lack of respect, and that could be why she was rude. Ultimately, I don't think that the mother of the boy really has a reason to call the woman on it, it will probably just screw up the relationship. and in my opinion, that is a very stupid reason to screw it up.
Mother Whimsey


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## Jish (Dec 12, 2001)

Quote:

Am I the only one who found Party Mom's remark to be sort of... funny?
No, I was laughing right along with you. :LOL Personally, I'm guessing that this boy rarely has heard the word "no" and is customed to negotiating everything -- that just isn't going to happen in the real world outside the confines of home. The idea that if she had simply given him a short explanation and he would have said "ok, now I get it" is simply laughable. I have a second grader and that probably wouldn't have stopped he or his friends from continuing on with their nagging. To them, the idea of simply trading with a friend seems totally logical. At it is, in theory. What they can't understand is that by letting one person do it, that opens the door to a whole group of kids begging to do the same thing, and then it is simply chaos. Sometimes rules are rules for reasons beyond what the kids are willing to understand and accept.

I think your sil needs to realize that the world doesn't revolve around her child. I know that sounds harsh, but the party mom didn't do anything wrong, and she certainly didn't "discipline" her child. I'm guessing that she doesn't want her son to get the reputation of being a "nag." That could get him excluded from parties in the future as that reputation spreads. Sad, but true. At this age, she should help him to have good party manners, and understand that he isn't the center of the party.


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## alicia622 (May 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kavamamakava*
I wouldn't be mad at the woman. It was her party and that's how they do things there. I would talk about my son's feelings with him though.









:


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