# Do you punish?



## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I'm just curious how many people on MDC and the GD board use punishment and how many don't.

I know there will be overlap in the answers, but pick the one that fits best, unless none of them fit at all. Oh, and don't answer based on slipups (if you are sorry and vow to do better next time, etc). Answer based on how you usually discipline.
I think we all sometimes yell (and maybe even spout a threat or punish in some way) and feel bad about it afterwards and wish we hadn't. That just means we are humans and have some work to do before we're perfect









eta- I maybe should have added something about rewards.


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## SpottedFoxx (Feb 8, 2010)

What do you mean by punish?

Do I strike my child? No.
Do I humiliate my child? No.
Do I offer consequences for actions (both good and bad)? Absolutely.


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## treeoflife3 (Nov 14, 2008)

I use natural and logical consequences. Sometimes I slip up and yell, but I blame that on being the only parent here 24/7 with no breaks or help thanks to the lady named Army







I try to give her lots of extra love when I do slip up though.


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## oaktreemama (Oct 12, 2010)

I am non punitive though I might, if I were less than the perfect Mother I am, yell sometimes. And then I would be really sorry-IF I wasn't perfect.


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## AAK (Aug 12, 2004)

I chose logical/related consequences, but to be honest I don't think of that as punishment. If I leave my library book in the yard and it gets wet, I am required to pay for it. Not as a "punishment" but simply to "make it right". That is how I think of my "consequences". They are there to "make it right" not to punish. If there isn't an appropriate or natural consequence. . . then we talk about what happened etc. A lot of times (with my older kids) I am able to identify the concern and they are able to take it upon themselves to "make it right".

At the same time, certain things come (as privledges) with responsibility. For example: my dd wants a cell phone. She does NOT need a cell phone. She is demonstrating responsibility first (through a prearranged agreement with me) to earn this. Once she does, she can LOSE the phone--it is outlined in the agreement. So, this example may illustrate punishment. However, I think of it as creating a situation for her to excel in. She knows beforehand what is expected of her to earn and maintain the priv. of having a cell phone. She is doing her part, and I will also do mine. I expect her to hold up to her end of the bargain throughout. If she doesn't, I will take the phone for a period of time--since we came up with this before hand (at her suggestion) I will consider it a related consequence if it happens. But, I could see how some would say it is punishment.

Amy


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Mostly non-punitive, but occasionally we use natural/logical consequences. It's only for extreme circumstances where the actual natural consequence is too much....


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Oh, I'm not necessarily saying that logical consequences = punishment. That, to me, is just somewhere in the middle on the scale of punishment and non-punitive.


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## momtoS (Apr 12, 2006)

I have tried MANY different things. My three year old defiant like nothing else.







She wrecks stuff, makes huge messes, is mean to her sister, SCREAMS all the time.

I am pregnant and have no patience for it.

She is a loud, messy three year old.

NOTHING WORKS WITH HER AND MOST DAYS I JUST GIVE UP. I am hoping that eventually I find something that is helpful. I wish I could enjoy my time with her more....but it seems that her mission is to make every event MISERABLE.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

MomtoS, many hugs to you.


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## karanyavel (May 8, 2010)

We don't do much punishment, but then, our child is pretty well-behaved. If she makes a mess, she has to clean it up before she does anything else, but that's just part of her responsibilities as a family member and she may need to be reminded but she does it without complaint.

Otherwise, I use logical consequences when possible, but sometimes I don't have any that aren't extreme. For example, if she's being a pain in the rear during the time we're homeschooling, refuses to do her assigned work, etc., the only logical consequence I can think of would be to put her into public school which would be extreme, IMO. Luckily this is rare (less than once a month) but in cases like this, we use what is by far the most effective consequence: cut her off computer games and videos for the rest of the night!

--K


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

I'm mostly non-punitive, but I have chosen to use non-related punishments at times. I have also slipped up and dealt out non-related punishments that were revoked a few times as well. I also am fine with natural consequences happening sometimes and I do impose logical consequences sometimes too.


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## [email protected] (Sep 7, 2010)

I think "time-outs" can be related. I see these as taking breathers, stopping intense conflict, allowing time to reflect and start over. Taking a time-out is not a punishment & doesn't mean that a kid has to remove him/herself and sit in a special chair, it's a momentary suspension of time.

If there is conflict:
Usually I try to talk things through w/ my kid, and identify feelings. I use a lot of reflection: "I can see that you're feeling frustrated right now", or "it must be frustrating to feel like you want X, but I'm saying no", or "I can tell that you feel very angry". I also identify my own feelings. I think it's important to give kids the words for how they are feeling, especially through the 3's and 4's, for eventually they will learn to present these feelings (instead of tantrums) when they are indeed feeling frustrated or angry. It's a necessary skill in conflict resolution. And then, "how can we solve this problem?" Sometimes we come to a compromise of sorts, but other times he has to work around the rule I've created (since I'm the grown-up).

If he has violated a rule:
We usually just take that thing away, if a thing is involved, or prohibit the activity for a while. I do state that I feel disappointed that he made that choice (whatever the choice is), and that it's a matter of trust. But I don't lay on the shame, withhold love, or add on extra punishments.

If he tantrums, screams, hits:
I tell him (usually a few times), "this is not appropriate behavior". I may say something like, "I'm going to go into the kitchen for a while and work on dinner until we can discuss this. Just let me know when you're done with this tantrum (or done screaming, whatever)". This stops the behavior almost immediately, for it doesn't feed into it or give him any power.

Unless his behavior is harmful to himself or another person, I try to stay very gentle, understand that he's only a little kid & learning all the time, and give him the benefit of the doubt. I may just say, "You broke a rule and I'm curious why you did that", and it opens up communication & allows me to see into his thinking processes -- sometimes he innocently/unintentionally has done something. If he admits it was intentional or he doesn't know why he did it, I'll just simply state, "well, that behavior is not OK and I don't want you to do it anymore". And we move on.


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## mama2cal&darby (Jun 13, 2008)

There seems to be a real range in opinion as to what constitutes punishment.


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## GardenStream (Aug 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *[email protected]* 
I think "time-outs" can be related. I see these as taking breathers, stopping intense conflict, allowing time to reflect and start over. Taking a time-out is not a punishment & doesn't mean that a kid has to remove him/herself and sit in a special chair, it's a momentary suspension of time.

This

My boys are 2 and 4. Our only daily struggles have to deal with hitting, kicking, tackling and biting. Time outs are our natural consequence. When they hit they are not allowed to be around others, they have to leave the action. A couple minutes to calm down and collect themselves helps to keep the violence down.


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## Arianwen (Jun 21, 2005)

For serious infractions (disappearing in the neighbourhood, stuff like that) my 7 year old step-son receives a grounding. If he is whiney/bratty during the grounding, he may get an extra day tacked on. His bio-mom observes the grounding when he's at her house, too, which is awesome.

That said, I feel that my DH is too lenient with the grounding, he lets his son play Wii games in the living room. I come from the old school "grounding means in your room, no games/puter/you have to do chores/other unfun things."


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## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

We use logical and natural consequences most of the time. We also do "chill out time," either with us or alone, but that's generally a natural consequence to something, when it becomes clear that a reset or a breather is needed.


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## mizzoh (Sep 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *earthmama369* 
We use logical and natural consequences most of the time. We also do "chill out time," either with us or alone, but that's generally a natural consequence to something, when it becomes clear that a reset or a breather is needed.

same here


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## JamieCatheryn (Dec 31, 2005)

Time-outs to calm down when he's misbehaving because he's worked up about stuff. Groundings when he's shown he can't be responsible with the privilege involved so we need to take it out of the equation.


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## mom2happy (Sep 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2cal&darby* 
There seems to be a real range in opinion as to what constitutes punishment.

yeah


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Your only "I do not punish" had slipups included so I put other. We do not use punishments at all. The types of slipups we have are usually when an adult breaks our "treat people with respect" family rule by shouting or acting grumpy. When we have slipups we apologize. We have family rules, say no to stuff sometimes, and suggest that some choices are better ideas than others, but we do not impose a consequence as a penalty for an annoying behavior. We've always had a "you have to play safe/nice if you want to play" rule so when DD was younger, we left if she was pushing or throwing stuff or we picked her up if she wasn't staying close enough. I don't think enforcing family rules is punishment, using a consequence as a penalty of some kind is. We don't _use_ natural consequences either. We often talk about possible consequences before they can happen though. Sort of "If you do x then y or z could happen. So doing x might be a bad idea.".

With teens I can see how grounding would be easier to use than our talk everything through methods. Though you could easily take away driving privileges for staying out too late and it still be part of a "you have to use things safely if you want to use them" rule. I hope that DD will be able to make good choices by the time she's a teen ........I guess that's one of our main parenting goals, that DD will learn how to make good choices.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2cal&darby* 
There seems to be a real range in opinion as to what constitutes punishment.

Yeah, I guess so! It seemed cut and dried when I wrote it out, but I now see there's a huge gray area.

For example, I consider dp and I to be non-punitive. However, I do tell ds that he has to tidy his room up a bit before watching tv. How does that fit in? He doesn't mind doing it, it doesn't have to be all the way clean, just cleaner, and if he chose not to clean (and not watch tv) that would be ok with me. It wouldn't bother me a bit. It's related in the sense that there's only so much time after school, and I don't want it to get to be bedtime, and his room's a mess and there's no time to do anything with it.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

That was a hard poll to answer. We practice gentle discipline and use timeout/grounding and natural consequences regularly.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DevaMajka* 
Yeah, I guess so! It seemed cut and dried when I wrote it out, but I now see there's a huge gray area.

For example, I consider dp and I to be non-punitive. However, I do tell ds that he has to tidy his room up a bit before watching tv. How does that fit in? He doesn't mind doing it, it doesn't have to be all the way clean, just cleaner, and if he chose not to clean (and not watch tv) that would be ok with me. It wouldn't bother me a bit. It's related in the sense that there's only so much time after school, and I don't want it to get to be bedtime, and his room's a mess and there's no time to do anything with it.

Saying you need to clean up before doing something else isn't punitive, it's taking care of the families living space. Every family has their own comfort level when it comes to mess and clutter. And everyone doing their part is part of respecting each other. Usually with us it's cleaning up after painting or water play or tidying the living room, instead of DD cleaning her room.


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## mom2happy (Sep 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ssh* 
Your only "I do not punish" had slipups included so I put other. We do not use punishments at all. We've always had a "you have to play safe/nice if you want to play" rule so when DD was younger, we left if she was pushing or throwing stuff or we picked her up if she wasn't staying close enough. I don't think enforcing family rules is punishment, using a consequence as a penalty of some kind is.

Leaving the playground if she was pushing someone was her "punishment"
It wasnt you saying "Its not safe to climb up the slide if you see someone coming down, you could get hurt", then she does it anyway, gets hurt, learns a life lesson.
Of course its a life lesson to remove her from the playground, but it is a life lesson being taught to her by you, with a consequence being provided by you. She's being penalized for pushing someone by having to leave a great place. It's related to the behavior, but still punitive I believe.
Now she knows what will happen if she tries pushing someone again. You have shown her that she can not act that way or ........
If you do this.......
I'll do this......... I despise being in that position. It's very hard and not the way we want things to go, but it sure does come down to it sometimes.

It's the the same exact way I would handle the situation. I guess we just differ in our terminology.


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## raelize (Jun 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *atobols* 
This

My boys are 2 and 4. Our only daily struggles have to deal with hitting, kicking, tackling and biting. Time outs are our natural consequence. When they hit they are not allowed to be around others, they have to leave the action. A couple minutes to calm down and collect themselves helps to keep the violence down.

this is the same with us. we call it taking a break. we have talked a lot about how when i am angry and yelling/want to fight/or have other inappropriate behavior, i knwo that i can walk away until i calm down by myself. then when i am in control of myself, i will rejoin whatever is was i left. and often, dd needs to take these breaks. i have on occasion, carried her out of the room because she was so mad she was screaming things like: i won't go outside and play! its too hot and i will die!! you are all going to die if you go outside!! you will all die!!!-all this to our friends who came over to play.

then i remind her that when she is calm she can come back downstairs, but that behavior is inappropriate and unacceptable. but, i never think of it as punishment, and we never talk about it like its punishment. she stays as long as she needs to until she is calm, then she rejoins us on her own.
it usually doesn't take long and she is good as new.
this behavior started when she was around 3.5, and has definately decreased in frequency as she has passed 4.5. she is almost 5.
otherwise we try to use logical/natural consequences. don't want to wear shoes into the store? then you have to sit in the cart, that is the store rules (shoes required). want to leave all your toys around the house? then the little peices will get lost and we will end up throwing out the game. don't want to wear a coat? then you will get wet in the rain. yes we often have to remind her of times in the past when she didn't want to clean up, or refused to wear a coat, but it works.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

We mostly just talk about things, but I do occasionally slip up and fly off the handle with a completely illogical consequence that I later apologize for. I almost always kick myself about it for a long time afterwards. When dd was little I did things like leaving a playgroup if dd was out of control, but I don't think that was a punishment or a consequence really. It was just what we do when we are tired of being somewhere and our friends irritate us enough that we want to hurt them. I think of it as more of a lesson in knowing when to say goodbye and tried to prevent it from happening too frequently by paying attention to dd's body language for signs that we needed to wrap up and go home.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2happy* 
Leaving the playground if she was pushing someone was her "punishment"

I disagree. Stopping an activity if it becomes dangerous is just staying safe. Not letting my DD stand on the kitchen table isn't punishment either. Picking her up before she could run into the street also wasn't. Because none of these responses involve separate imposed penalties that are in retribution for a behavior. To give you a couple of definitions "Punishment is the authoritative imposition of something negative or unpleasant on a person or animal in response to behavior deemed wrong." , "a penalty inflicted for an offense or fault". Just stopping a dangerous activity isn't a separate penalty, it's just keeping everyone uninjured. Punishment would have been "you couldn't behave at the park so you can't have an already planned treat." or some other imposed penalty. To put it in adult terms, if you are stopped by a police person, asked to slow down and given a warning that's not punishment. The dangerous activity of speeding was stopped. If you are given a ticket and and then have your insurance rates go up that would be punishment.

Also young children often misbehave when they are stressed so if my DD couldn't play safely maybe she was too stressed to play right then anyway. Often she was hungry or feel asleep in the car when we'd have to leave. So I don't think leaving somewhere if a kid can't handle it is punitive. I know the times we've left stores or restaurants when my DD was younger, she really didn't mind leaving at all. I think it's being responsive to your child's needs.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Leaving the park if you hit someone is a bit of a gray area. I can definitely see it as punishment, particularly if it involves a threat (If you hit someone like you did yesterday, we're going to leave), but on the other hand, if a child is not in a mood where playing at the park is going well, it might just not be a good day for playing in the park and therefore it might be best to leave. I guess maybe if there's a hard and fast rule (You hit, we leave, no matter what) it sounds more punitive than if you look at how the child is doing and whether the hit is a one-time thing or whether there's a pattern of behavior and moodiness that makes you feel it isn't a good day to stay at the park? It is a complicated question.


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## erin_brycesmom (Nov 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2cal&darby* 
There seems to be a real range in opinion as to what constitutes punishment.

That's for sure!


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## kcparker (Apr 6, 2008)

I picked other. DS1 is a really easy kid, so he doesn't even need disciplining very often. My main goal at this juncture with him is to stop a situation that is becoming dangerous or injurious, so I will tell him to sit on a chair next to me and not move if he's pushed his brother over and I have to take care of the crying kiddo, or I will take a toy and put it away if he's throwing it in the kitchen. But is that punishment? To me, it's not being done to humiliate him or 'teach him a lesson,' but simply to stop the current activity. Mostly, we can ask him to stop something or have a little face-to-face chat and snuggle and that clears up whatever undesirable behavior he's exhibiting.

I guess my perception is that punishment is done with the mindset that the child needs to "be taught a lesson," through being made to feel bad/shamed/guilty, rather than being taught through natural or logical consequences or through modeling. So, a timeout done because the situation needs to be defused can be a natural consequence, whereas a timeout meted out because the parent thinks the child needs to "pay" for an infraction are qualitatively different. The former says, "We all need to take a minute to cool down,"; the latter says, "You are a bad kid and I want you to go away from us until I say to come back."


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2happy* 
Leaving the playground if she was pushing someone was her "punishment"

I feel the same way about this as ssh and mamazee. It *could* be used as a punishment, or it could be non-punitive.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kcparker* 
I guess my perception is that punishment is done with the mindset that the child needs to "be taught a lesson," through being made to feel bad/shamed/guilty, rather than being taught through natural or logical consequences or through modeling. So, a timeout done because the situation needs to be defused can be a natural consequence, whereas a timeout meted out because the parent thinks the child needs to "pay" for an infraction are qualitatively different. The former says, "We all need to take a minute to cool down,"; the latter says, "You are a bad kid and I want you to go away from us until I say to come back."

Yep, you just put my thoughts into words.

When ds1 was little, when he started using an object in an unacceptable way (hitting the window with blocks, for example) and redirecting wasn't helping, I'd say "should we take away the temptation to do xyz?" He always agreed, I put it out of sight, and it was all good. So that's taking away something because it's being misused, but is clearly not a punishment.


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## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

Like other PP's, when I stop to think about it, I'm not really sure what punishment is. There have been times when we've had to stop activities because it was clear they weren't able to participate safely (running away, not following directions, etc...). I don't intend the stopping to be a punishment and try to frame it in a 'this isn't safe right now, we can try again tomorrow' way, but they might experience it as punishment.

But no time out chair or grounding or anything like that happens around here.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

I try to have punishments be related, but that is not always possible. My children just came off of a one week grounding due to their constant fighting.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

I prefer not to punish... but when *I* feel really angry about something, I'll often send my kids to their room or something, to keep myself from screaming/raging at them and just generally give us all space (and honestly when i didn't have a baby in the house *I* was often the one to walk away, but that's not always so easy anymore). So, I don't consider it a punishment, but it probably comes off as punish-y to my kids... *sigh*


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## ChetMC (Aug 27, 2005)

I said that we do not punish (except perhaps for slipups, then I vow to do better next time). Some people might say that we are mostly non-punitive, but use logical consequences occasionally.

As an example, our girls once made a huge mess in the bathroom when they were supposed to be brushing their teeth. They dumped out a whole bottle of shampoo. Caused a flood. Emptied a tube of toothpaste into the sink and smeared it on the wall and the towels. That night there were no bedtime stories.

I didn't feel that was a punishment though. We only had one bathroom, and it needed to be cleaned up for everybody else to use it. By the time I cleaned up the mess, it was way, WAY passed bedtime. If I had read stories after I cleaned up the mess the kids would have been up too late and been super cranky the next day. So, it could be a logical consequence that their actions caused me to use bedtime story time to clean up their mess, or it could be a natural consequence. It depends on your opinion regarding the urgency of the cleanup.

I will remove a child from a situation for inappropriate behaviour, but they are generally free to go back once they are ready to behave appropriately. Unless of course the real problem is something like tired or hungry, in which case we just address the root cause.


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

I don't mind being considered punitive by mdc standards but I agree that time outs for violence are logical & related. Dd is 5 but SN and very severely speech delayed- time outs (or the threat of one) are the absolute only thing that will stop her from being violent. If she's going to start throwing every object she can put her hands on at me while I'm holding the baby, I can't remove every item from the house, but I can remove her to a safe space until she has calmed down.


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## FatAphrodite (Oct 16, 2010)

I would say non-punitive, but I don't see natural and logical consequences as punishment. I do enforce my boundaries, but all people (and animals) have a right to have and enforce boundaries. I also help my children learn to enforce their own boundaries. For instance, one of our boundaries is that video games must not be mistreated or result in fighting. I enforce that by terminating video game play when it becomes too rough or cranky. They can play again when they are ready to play respectfully. This is a logical consequence. If I grounded them for a week, either generally or specifically from the game, that is arbitrary, intended to "teach them a lesson" and punishment. If I allowed them to play roughly, the game would get broken and the natural consequence would be that they did not have a game to play. I use logical consequences when the natural ones are "too much" and the logical will have the same effect. It is permissive to just let them do whatever, or tag along behind them begging them to behave. Parents in my area tend to do either this or be very punitive.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

i cannot punish. i have a visceral reaction when i try to punish. my stomach really knots up.

dd is an EXTREMELY curious child. when she was young her punishable things were a result of her curiosity.

its always been her and me. i've never disciplined her when i know she is either tired or hungry. she just cannot listen.

i've always involved her in decision making. i follow the principals of 'non violent communication'. and so its really going against a lot of things to punish dd.

she has been mostly a good child even when she was little. her discipline esp. as a toddler were limits. and i made her understand why i have those limits. so she never really went against those limits. she has made messes. i joined in to explain her curiosity and then set limits to that. things like if she makes that kind of mess she needs to help clean up and that there are somethign she cant use in that manner and she needs to ask me before using it. explained i dont want it done again. and why. and she never did repeat it.

for some reason i have found even as a toddler (she did really well with words and talking. i think the talking helped sooth her. she has always reacted well to the sound of talking - very calming to her) she did ok.

sometimes though she keeps telling me mom you must punish me when i am bad. so i tell her let me know when you do something that i need to punish you and tell me how to punish you and i'll try.

recently she told me she'd rather i slap her than take her tv time away. we were having quite a conversation about it. we talked about what we prefer as punishment and sat back and neither of us could figure out when she was last punished.

now if i had more than one child i dont know what my answer would have been.

but really i have never really ever felt i had to use punishment with my child.


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## mum4vr (Jan 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SpottedFoxx* 
What do you mean by punish?

Do I strike my child? No.
Do I humiliate my child? No.
Do I offer consequences for actions (both good and bad)? Absolutely.











Quote:


Originally Posted by *oaktreemama* 
I am non punitive though I might, if I were less than the perfect Mother I am, yell sometimes. And then I would be really sorry-IF I wasn't perfect.
















heeheehee, if I weren't a perfect mother, I would also occasionally yell or declare that I am about to have an aneurism (hey, it's my less-than-perfect counterpart's inner drama queen, and it brings levity to the stress







), but would also be sorry and vow to make it right c:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AAK* 
I chose logical/related consequences, but to be honest I don't think of that as punishment. If I leave my library book in the yard and it gets wet, I am required to pay for it. Not as a "punishment" but simply to "make it right". That is how I think of my "consequences". They are there to "make it right" not to punish. If there isn't an appropriate or natural consequence. . . then we talk about what happened etc. A lot of times (with my older kids) I am able to identify the concern and they are able to take it upon themselves to "make it right".

At the same time, certain things come (as privledges) with responsibility. For example: my dd wants a cell phone. She does NOT need a cell phone. She is demonstrating responsibility first (through a prearranged agreement with me) to earn this. Once she does, she can LOSE the phone--it is outlined in the agreement. So, this example may illustrate punishment. However, I think of it as creating a situation for her to excel in. She knows beforehand what is expected of her to earn and maintain the priv. of having a cell phone. She is doing her part, and I will also do mine. I expect her to hold up to her end of the bargain throughout. If she doesn't, I will take the phone for a period of time--since we came up with this before hand (at her suggestion) I will consider it a related consequence if it happens. But, I could see how some would say it is punishment.

Amy











this exactly-- we parent quite similarly, Amy







but I don't think what you describe is a punishment c:


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

To be honest, I don't think that timeouts/groundings are "unrelated" or not logical/natural consequences for older kids, depending on what the offense was. So I put other.

I also tend to think of it as allowing my children to face consequences for their behavior choices. Though certainly I'm sure that some people would say that since they tend to be negative (at least in the eyes of the child in that moment) most people would say that's just a semantic difference.

For example, DD is responsible for putting on her dance clothing, getting her dance bag packed, and be ready to walk out the door by a certain time so that we can get to the studio on time for every class. I got tired of nagging her, because it a) didn't get her to move any quicker, was b) an invitation to a power struggle, and c) made us even more late as she scrambled, forgot stuff, cried and screamed and whined, ect. End result--a very rude late entrance to her dance class which disrupted it and annoyed her teacher, she was grumpy, and I was grumpy. So I told her that I was done with the nagging. I told her the time that she needed to be ready, or else I would not drive her that day. She procrastinated, I set a timer the last 15 minutes and put it in her room, she still poked around. The timer went off, and we were done. She was really upset, but we did not go. I wasn't angry or abusive, didn't restrict her from other activities, but you get the picture.

If my kids forget their lunch, they must take care of it by buying lunch at school and then paying me back out of their allowance for that week if they've already used up their 2xMonth mom-pays-for-school-lunch quota. They also may choose at any time to buy lunch at school with their own money.

If they start fighting and being abusive to each other in the car on our way to an activity or event, I turn the car around and we go back home. No screaming, no lecturing, no "I'm so disappointed", just action. No shaming or lecturing. If they ask why, I tell them the truth--I actually do care about how they act in public, I feel stressed and unsafe if I have to drive while I have people in the back of the car screaming at each other and trying to hit each other or throwing things, so I think it's best if we go home and do something else until we're all ready to go out.

My daughter has been struggling with being belligerent towards me off and on, as she navigates the whole 8-10 year old social dos and donts thing (the mean girls thing is starting sadly, so sometimes she wants to practice what she's being given on her brothers or dad or me). I am happy to coach her through talking about what's bothering her, but if she's just unloading a bunch of abuse at me, then she loses my chauffer services for the day, and I may choose to not hang out with her until she calms down. I suppose that is "punitive", but I think it's important for her to realize that she can't be verbally abusive towards people without consequences, as well as giving her tools for how to not damage relationships (once she calms down, we talk strategies, what triggered it, ect.). She has been "grounded" from all activities for up to a week because she refused to do the things that were expected in order to get out the door and/or decided to act out in a way that she knows will incur consequences. She is my kid who learns by testing. It's very stressful to parent, but I don't fault her for it--some kids are like that. I know that because I was one, and still learn best by testing.

So I guess I am dissatisfied by the choices because they seem more like segmented all or nothing. I have used time outs and grounding (defined by me as having to stay home instead of being able to go to an activity) but IMO they were logical, known consequences--and were given without engaging in power struggle or as revenge.

I think it's logical that if you hurl verbal abuse at someone and then demand that they take you somewhere, you're going to find that you might be disappointed. I also think that once the kids are older, it's perfectly logical that if you demonstrate that you are mean to someone, they may prefer to not engage you until you're more under control (the parental exception being that I will always respond to being asked for help to calm down, such as my presence once the verbal abuse stops, a hug, a backrub/hair petting, use of my cool gel pens/markers to write in her journal/on paper, ect.).


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Punishments can be logical and related. In fact, someone (can't remember who) wrote that the guidelines for punishments in gentle discipline had three Rs: they should be related, respectful, and something else I can't think of. Anyway, any negative consequence created purposely by a parent in an attempt to teach not to do something is punishment, but punishments can absolutely be gentle and related and logical.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

I think some people get tied up in the _connotation_ of the word punishment, just at they do with the word discipline. If you grew up in my generation or before it probably has a very negative underpinning for you. Punishments involved violence, either physical, verbal or passive which aimed to strip you of the pride and arrogance that led you down the garden path in the first place.

Punishments when I was a kid ranged from a smacked bottom, hand or face to such delightful things as soap in the mouth or being grounded from using the telelphone/watching TV/riding my bike, etc. for a few days to a few months at a time. Punishments were frequently overeactive, illogical, and apart from the physical ones, next to impossible to enforce. They rarely taught me anything, and usually gave me plenty of time to plot out how not to get caught the next time.

So I while I do not have any hang ups with the word punishment, I can see how some people do. I worked for a school in Costa Rica that tried to do away with punishments and create a "non-punitive" system. First it was based on a ladder of pseudo consequences (meetings, talks, letters home, all well worth whatever infraction was made), but that proved to just be a synonym for ineffectual punishments leading up to eventual expulsion. Then they worked on a system of "Restorative Justice"...as far as I could tell it was just a fancy word for punishments that were meant to make the victim/s feel better and sometimes gave the rule-breaker some ownership in their punishment. But the semantics were SO important to so many of the students and staff I didn't want to burst their bubble and tell them so. Most of the time it just lead to writing a letter, openly apologizing via e-mail to the community, lots and lots of meetings to discuss the actions and eventually expulsion.









At the end of the day discipline is just about teaching people how to improve, be it as communicators, atheltes, or members of a society. Sometimes we need to use unpleasant consequences to teach people how to improve. If my students write a crap essay, we drill essay structures and they have to re-write it. They don't like it and they see it as a punshiment, but it makes them a better writer. To me that is very similar to when my son makes a mess of the living room and I have him clean it up. He doesn't like it and he definitely sees it as a punishment, but it makes him a more responsible member of the family.

I agree with mamazee, ideally punishments should be related, respectful and (taking a stab at the third R) reasonable. BUT we are human beings and as such have an innate urge to abuse our power of authority, so if occassionally, we do not follow those 3 Rs for whatever reason, if we scream unkind things at our children, or we see them coloring on the walls and decide they can't go to the park for three months, then perhaps it is time for us to discipline ourselves, give ourselves a time out and when we are ready, apologize and try a "take two".*

I think the mistake I make most as a parent is forgetting to model for my child how to take back poor choices and make things right, which ultimately I think is the goal of _any_ form of discipline with regards to children, that they learn how to right the wrongs they commit.

*Take two is something we do in our house if someone wakes up grumpy or starts being rude. We say "Let's try that again 'Benjamin needs a snack-- Take Two'"


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ssh* 
I disagree. Stopping an activity if it becomes dangerous is just staying safe. Not letting my DD stand on the kitchen table isn't punishment either. Picking her up before she could run into the street also wasn't. Because none of these responses involve separate imposed penalties that are in retribution for a behavior. To give you a couple of definitions "Punishment is the authoritative imposition of something negative or unpleasant on a person or animal in response to behavior deemed wrong." , "a penalty inflicted for an offense or fault". Just stopping a dangerous activity isn't a separate penalty, it's just keeping everyone uninjured. Punishment would have been "you couldn't behave at the park so you can't have an already planned treat." or some other imposed penalty. *To put it in adult terms, if you are stopped by a police person, asked to slow down and given a warning that's not punishment. The dangerous activity of speeding was stopped. If you are given a ticket and and then have your insurance rates go up that would be punishment.*

Also young children often misbehave when they are stressed so if my DD couldn't play safely maybe she was too stressed to play right then anyway. Often she was hungry or feel asleep in the car when we'd have to leave. So I don't think leaving somewhere if a kid can't handle it is punitive. I know the times we've left stores or restaurants when my DD was younger, she really didn't mind leaving at all. I think it's being responsive to your child's needs.

I don't mean to nitpick but this is an incongruous analogy. Taking a child out of the park when they are being unsafe isn't at all warning them and asking them stop playing inappropriately.( BTW taking my son out of the park is totally something I have done and will always do if my son acts violently towards other kids) but...If the police in your analogy had said you could no longer drive on those roads and were now restricted to only the roads nearer your house, or that you could not drive for the rest of the day, THEN that would be the same thing. I think most of us _would_ consider that a punishment for our poor driving choices. _I_ would.

I agree that it is being responsive to your child's needs, but I think a punishment, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. My kid would definitely see it as punishment and scream the whole way home "I said I was sorry, I'm SOOOORRRYYYYY!!!! Please mooooommmmyyy PLEEEEEEEEASE go back to the park, I won't do it agaaaaaaiiiin. I promise!" So I would have a hard time arguing that it's not a punishment. I have no qualms with that though. I still need to keep him and other's safe, and that doesn't always mean keeping him happy.


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