# An observation about praise and its alternatives...



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I live in a progressive area where it's common to hear a lot of the advice lingo in GD books and etc. when you're out and about. There was a time where I remember thinking that if I hear the term "use your words" one more time my head would explode.









Anyway...

Yesterday, I was out and DC was in one of those bouncy houses. There was another parent there watching his child and he was saying, "You're bouncing so high. Wow! Look how high you're bouncing..." Now I could be wrong and that may just be what he naturally would have said but I got the feeling that his was a replacement for praise...like what I've read in a few parenting books. And, yes, like I do occasionally myself.

What I noticed was that there was really NO difference between this and just the straight up, "Wow, you're such a good jumper."

What are your thoughts on this?


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## RootBeerFloat (Nov 22, 2005)

I agree that it still sounds like he's praising. It helps me to think about non praising as non judging. And high is a judgement. It's an easy thing to just find new words for good and bad . . . but sort of missing the point, IMO.

In this situation, I might be inclined to either practice silence or, if dd were to make eye contact with me, I'd reflect her expression back to her. I may also say, "you're bouncing!" if I get the sense she's looking to connect with me.


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## richella (Nov 30, 2004)

Okay, I guess I'm totally ignorant on this one, but what is bad about praise? How otherwise do you express high regard for your dc? Does saying "You are bouncing" imply that bouncing is better than not bouncing?

In my experience w/hypnotherapy, I've noticed how when you are in a very non-critical and open state of mind (like a child), a simple "You are doing very well," feels soooo good. If you haven't experienced it, you wouldn't believe it. I remember thinking, "I know she's supposed to tell me that cause the teacher told her to, and it doesn't really mean anything at all, but . . . I like it a lot!"

So I praise dd a lot. I think it's good for self-esteem. I love her unconditionally and I praise her for just about everything.


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## MichaelsSahm (May 11, 2006)

I am with the above poster, I understand most of all GD, but the whole no praise thing I don't understand, its what works in this house alot of the times, when I say "wow, you cleaned your toys up? thank you so much" it helps for him to clean up next time again.


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## RootBeerFloat (Nov 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *richella*
Okay, I guess I'm totally ignorant on this one, but what is bad about praise? How otherwise do you express high regard for your dc?

So I praise dd a lot. I think it's good for self-esteem. I love her unconditionally and I praise her for just about everything.

I only have a quick second, I hope others will weigh in on this. I believe that praise, like punishment, bribes, or threats is a form of manipulation. Children will do things to earn your praise because they so much want our love, affection, and approval. I love and approve of my daughter separate from her actions; she could do the "worst" or "best" thing ever and I would still love and and approve of her just the same. I want her to know that, so I act toward her in a way that is consistent with my belief, by not judging her actions and supporting her finding her own feelings about what she's doing.

I do not believe that praise builds self esteem. I believe that it undermines it. True self esteem comes from the inside, from how dd feels about herself, not how I feel about her. Treating her in a way that is loving and respectful of her and her choices is how I show her my belief in the inherent "goodness"--divinity--of her personhood. I hope that she will come to believe in and love herself as I believe in and love her, but it's really up to her to come to that conclusion.


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## emma_goldman (May 18, 2005)

Gotta read "Unconditional Parenting" by Alfie Kohn, sisters! The argument for non-praise is spelled out SO well and so clearly. It is hard to refute or to want to try to!


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## pianojazzgirl (Apr 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emma_goldman*
Gotta read "Unconditional Parenting" by Alfie Kohn, sisters! The argument for non-praise is spelled out SO well and so clearly. It is hard to refute or to want to try to!

Here's a link to an article by him:

http://www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/gj.htm


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

For me, this speaks to the problem of developing new skills, maturing, and becoming more conscious in my relationships (all of them, including parenting) while at the same time being authentic and sharing my true self with my children. IMO, its not terribly important to always use the correct words, though thoughtfulness and attention to words is important and part of an overall growth process. What is important is that we are engaged with our children, sharing our own enthusiasm with them. If my kid is jumping high, and I'm excited about it -- then what my kid will remember is whether or not I shared in the enthusiasm and excitement. My words are important too, but my kids will not interpret them as genuine unless they *are* genuine. Better to shout out, "Great job!" and share authentically and genuinely in my child's enthusiasm, then to describe what I see and cause my child to "shut down" because they hear it as if I'm reading from a script. Perhaps it is better still when I can describe what I see with genuine enthusiasm. But learning this is a process, kwim?? And its okay for it to develop gradually.


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## pianojazzgirl (Apr 6, 2006)

I liked your post Mamaduck. Food for thought for me!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck*
For me, this speaks to the problem of developing new skills, maturing, and becoming more conscious in my relationships (all of them, including parenting) while at the same time being authentic and sharing my true self with my children. IMO, its not terribly important to always use the correct words, though thoughtfulness and attention to words is important and part of an overall growth process. What is important is that we are engaged with our children, sharing our own enthusiasm with them. If my kid is jumping high, and I'm excited about it -- then what my kid will remember is whether or not I shared in the enthusiasm and excitement. My words are important too, but my kids will not interpret them as genuine unless they *are* genuine. Better to shout out, "Great job!" and share authentically and genuinely in my child's enthusiasm, then to describe what I see and cause my child to "shut down" because they hear it as if I'm reading from a script. Perhaps it is better still when I can describe what I see with genuine enthusiasm. But learning this is a process, kwim?? And its okay for it to develop gradually.

MD, I totally agree and it's in that spirit that I posted.

What I observed is not that the words were not genuine but that they perhaps weren't what mattered most. Yes, what the child got was that the caregiver was sharing enthusiasm.

What I took from it is yet another confirmation that being in the moment with my kid and being real with her is much more important than the semantics of it...

Not that I don't think the language is important. It is...just not at the expense of being genuine.

And, to be 100% clear, I'm talking about myself here. This is a main challange for me. Making changes, growing, breaking habits, refining language and etc. all while being real with my kid.

Mornings are best.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Ah, good. ICM -- you just boiled down exactly what I was trying to say into far simpler words.









Quote:

Making changes, growing, breaking habits, refining language and etc. all while being real with my kid.
Yep. Thank you for understanding me! Sometimes I feel about as clear as mud.


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## stiles' mummy (Jan 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *richella*

So I praise dd a lot. I think it's good for self-esteem. I love her unconditionally and I praise her for just about everything.

I praise my son a lot as well. He is only 3 this month and many people have remarked how much confidence he has.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I've only read the first few posts so far, but something that struck me about the op was that "You're bouncing so high. Wow! Look how high you're bouncing..." doesn't feel like the parent is placing a value judgement on the child's actions. "High" is a descriptive term, not a judgment, kwim?
"Wow, you're such a good jumper." is definitely placing a value judgement on the child's actions.
The former lets the child determine the value of his actions. (Does dc think that high is good? for example). The latter is the parent determining the value.

I don't think I'd say "you are bouncing high" unless I could tell that my child thought that he was bouncing high, though. It's too subjective, so it could easily feel to me that I was not being truthful.

Perhaps the parent was just starting to tone down on praise, and that was the best replacement he could come up with right off. It does seem like a lot of attention for something that the child was doing (I'm guessing) because it was fun. Unless the child wanted his attention. lol.

I'd probably say something like "I see you bouncing" and maybe say something about it looks like he's having lots of fun, etc.

I'm sure there has already been stuff said about praise and why it is not the best thing to do, but I think my reasoning is that I think ds has the right to determine what he feels is worth doing and what isn't. Further, I think that praise has the potential to decrease that ability to judge for himself.
There is a difference between praise and positive feedback. Praise involves a value judgement. Positive feedback is just giving info. Like "Thanks for helping me pick up the blocks. It goes faster when you help, and we can go do something else." or "You are stacking a bunch of blocks!"
Also, I think praise (especially manipulative praise "you did a good job helping") undermines a child's innate sociality. They behave in a socially acceptable manner because they are social creatures. That type of praise assumes that they need some sort of reinforcement for behaving in an appropriate way, in order to get the to continue.
Plus, it seems to make it seem as though the behavior was unexpected, and that you are surprised that dc was helpful! I don't want to send that message


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## nonconformnmom (May 24, 2005)

The OP remarked:

Quote:

What I noticed was that there was really NO difference between this and just the straight up, "Wow, you're such a good jumper."
Actually, I see a pretty stark difference between saying "You're such a good jumper" and "Look how high you're jumping!" I believe the latter statement is preferable, but I also agree that as long as the statement is true to the moment and genuine, that's what matters most.

Looking at the first phrase, the words "*you*'re" and "*good*" pop out right away. A child might think, 'so, if I weren't jumping high like this would that mean that I am a _bad_ jumper?' Or the child might think, 'I'm pleasing my mom because I'm being a good jumper.' Whereas, saying "look how high you are jumping" is simply an observation, without a value judgement. Therefore, the child is not made to feel that she is 'good' or 'not good' based on the comment.

ETA: Looks like I cross-posted with DevaMommy!


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

okay, so maybe I don't get it, but frankly, I AM trying to control my child's behavior most of the time. I actually find alphie cohen drives me crazy - while I agree with much of the actual suggestions, the discussion of how evil praising is really irritates me as expecting way to much from both parents and children.

Honestly, at this age, I am trying to a. teach him what is expected of himself and b. stop him from doing something to harm himself or others. So when I see him doing something right, I tell him. When I see him doing something wrong (such as trying to walk out the back door without an adult, or run into the street), I tell him he is doing something wrong, and when he stops, I tell him he was right to stop. From the article mentioned above, I am therefore "manipulating with praise". Well, fine, then.

Frankly, you cannot reason with a 2 1/2 year old. Older children, maybe. But in my mind, FIRST they need to learn the rules of behavior so that they get to live to become older children.

Am I misunderstanding in some way? Or just grumpy?

Siobhan


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck*
If my kid is jumping high, and I'm excited about it -- then what my kid will remember is whether or not I shared in the enthusiasm and excitement. My words are important too, but my kids will not interpret them as genuine unless they *are* genuine. Better to shout out, "Great job!" and share authentically and genuinely in my child's enthusiasm, then to describe what I see and cause my child to "shut down" because they hear it as if I'm reading from a script. Perhaps it is better still when I can describe what I see with genuine enthusiasm. But learning this is a process, kwim?? And its okay for it to develop gradually.

ita. It's easier for me, I think, because I never started praising. But I've noticed with older kids that it is hard for me to not use value judgements (I like the way you sing. Your picture is nice. etc). Heck, even dp was finishing coloring a picture that he and ds had started on, and I had no idea what to say that wasn't a value judgement. lol. I'm sure "it looks nice" would be a way better option than "wait until I think of a way to say something that isn't judgemental" hehehe


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

What I mean (I think







) is that kids pick up on our true intentions regardless of the language. And, while attention to language is certainly important, it pales in comparison to what we're actually feeling.

For instance, if we're genuinely sharing enthusiasm with our kids, they'll likely get that whether we say "Great job!" or "I seem to really enjoy jumping." On the other side, if we're really in a place where we're more proud of our kids because of this that or the other accomplishment, behavior, whatever...they're going to pick up on that too. No matter what language we use.

MD,









Sioban and all,

This is kind of about struggling with all this stuff so anyone doing this is totally welcome to gripe about it. It's not clear cut, imo.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy*
I'm sure "it looks nice" would be a way better option than "wait until I think of a way to say something that isn't judgemental" hehehe











I get to a sticky place because when I really love a picture it feels totally right to say that...it's the other 5000 pictures/week that I get kind of...well...um...







:


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

I've been thinking about this a little lately too, because my ds is having a language explosion. So we have conversations like this:

We're looking at a book and ds points to a dog and says, "Dockkkkkkkkk!" I say, "Yes, that's the dog. Dog, dog. Can you find the flower?" Ds points to flower and says, "Fffffffffsss." I say, "Yes, that's right!"

So "right" is pretty judgmental. I wouldn't tell him he was wrong if he pointed to the cat, but I don't know what else to say. He IS right. Not that even knows what right is, though. Like IdentityCrisisMama said, I think it's just the fact that I'm excited and enthusiastic that counts.

And Siobhan, I know what you mean. I know a lot of people really like Alfie Kohn, but I personally found him to be VERY patronizing.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Oh, good, it isn't just me!

I went to a positive parenting class which uses a lot of the lessons of Alphie Kohn. One thing my husband pointed out is the language being used to describe phrasing that is "okay" vs "not okay" is imprecise.

For example, "good job" is called a value judgement but "putting the garbage in the trash was very tidy" is called "descriptive". But in actual fact, they are both value judgement - the latter just happens to be a descriptive (and in my mind, more useful) value judgement.

Face it, every time we respond to something our kids do, we are giving it value and meaning. This is part of what being social creatures is. I think this is why ignoring certain bad behavior is meant to work.

While I can see the value of being rather neutral with stuff like art or play ("you used lots of purple in your painting" vs "so pretty!"), I do think that there is a lot of benefit of demonstrating that certain behaviors are correct (such as mentioned by natensarah) and/or beneficial ("putting the garbage in the garbage can was tidy").

Am I misreading Alphie Kohn when I think he is saying these last examples are somehow bad?

Siobhan


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

N&S,

Because I philosophically agree that praise can be negative, I try to avoid it. What I find though, is that in the process, I get mixed up and eliminate things I don't feel are harmful.

Maybe this is what's happening to you. I totally don't think that telling a child that they got word correct relates to the praise or value judgment issue. I could see a problem if you're intentions AND/OR words (this is what I'm thinking is an important issue! ~ the and/or) conveyed that you liked your child better or that you enjoyed reading to her/him more when they got the answer correct.

Siobhang, for a while I was mixing up expressions of graduated and appreciation with praise. For instance, I was not telling DC thank you for helping me or why something was helpfu for fear of coming across as conditional. I'm really glad I got that sorted.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang*
Oh, good, it isn't just me!

X post...no, it's totally not just you...see above.

One of the things I really liked about UP is this idea that what's important is how your child perceives things. I think he talked about this in the beginning of the book and then that concept maybe didn't get carried through enough and I think it totally relates to what we're talking about.

I think that's what a lot of us are feeling ~ that simply replacing the words isn't all that if the fundamental feeligns are still there.

Now, I'm not saying that the fundamental feelings are all bad. But, if they're the same, why the effort to change the langage in the first place?


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

siobhan -

Well, I haven't read Kohn yet, and based on what I have read here (lots of threads here) about non-praise, I'm not sure I buy it 100%, BUT
I do see a clear cut diff between "good job" and "putting the garbage in the crash is very tidy." Putting the garbage in the trash is tidy, that's objective and descriptive. No sane person is going to call that activity messy. Also, "tidy" is more specific than "good." "Good job" doesn't tell him exactly what he did right.

That said, my preference I think in that situation would be to say sometihng more like "Thank you for putting the garbage in the trash, that is really helpful." Because to me, the point is not "goodness," nor is it tidiness. The point, the whole reason that either of us would be putting the garbage in the trash, is to be helpful.

I guess this is where the non-praise philosophy loses me. I want ds to want to be helpful. I want to tell him when he's being helpful and I want him to feel good about that. Tidiness as an end in itself is fine and good. But helpfulness is way better. I would rather inspire the desire to be a contributing part of a community. I want him to be aware of the impact his actions have on others.

"You spilled your juice, that's bad." - obviously I wouldn't say that.
"You spilled your juice, now there's a mess and someone has to clean it up." - that's descriptive. I would then offer him a rag and ask him if he wants to help. If he doesn't, I will continue to narrate: "I'm cleaning up your mess. I would be really happy if you were helping me." I don't want him to feel bad, but I do want him to be aware that a) juice spills do not magically disappear, and b) just what I said: I would be really happy if he were helping me. (My tone here would be different depending on whether the spillage was intentional or not, but the words would not be different, I think.)
And if he does help me clean it up, I wouldn't say "you're so tidy," I would say "thank you for clean up, that really helps me." Because in point of fact, he was not tidy, he spilled the juice. The more important thing here is the fact that he's helping me clean up.

So I don't get what's wrong with that. But as a self-proclaimed recovering priase junkie, I am still open to learning about this.


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## slightly crunchy (Jul 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck*
For me, this speaks to the problem of developing new skills, maturing, and becoming more conscious in my relationships (all of them, including parenting) while at the same time being authentic and sharing my true self with my children. IMO, its not terribly important to always use the correct words, though thoughtfulness and attention to words is important and part of an overall growth process. What is important is that we are engaged with our children, sharing our own enthusiasm with them. If my kid is jumping high, and I'm excited about it -- then what my kid will remember is whether or not I shared in the enthusiasm and excitement. My words are important too, but my kids will not interpret them as genuine unless they *are* genuine. Better to shout out, "Great job!" and share authentically and genuinely in my child's enthusiasm, then to describe what I see and cause my child to "shut down" because they hear it as if I'm reading from a script. Perhaps it is better still when I can describe what I see with genuine enthusiasm. But learning this is a process, kwim?? And its okay for it to develop gradually.

As usual, I find myself nodding along with mamaduck.









I also think it is different depending on the age of the child. I don't ever naturally say "good job" really. It has never felt natural to me. But I am very descriptive in the first few years, while language is being learned. I might tell a toddler "look, you are jumping so high" and expound on that, just naturally...but it is not about "wow you are so fabulous for jumping high", but just being excited with him and describing what he is doing. Now a 3 or 4 yo on up, I probably would not be sitting around going "look how high" every time they jump, kwim? For me I think it is more of a language thing, and how I communicate with and notice what he is doing.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

"So "right" is pretty judgmental. I wouldn't tell him he was wrong if he pointed to the cat, but I don't know what else to say. He IS right. Not that even knows what right is, though. Like IdentityCrisisMama said, I think it's just the fact that I'm excited and enthusiastic that counts."

Right is no biggie in my book, but if you are looking for alternatives I might say "that sure is a yellow duck" "looks like the duck is swimming" "I wonder if the duck and rabbit are friends", etc. I think that is more like a real conversation. Yes, it adds more vocabulary words but I've never seen that as a bad thing.

That said, I'm not much on quizzing. A little bit goes a really long way.


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## slightly crunchy (Jul 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
I've been thinking about this a little lately too, because my ds is having a language explosion. So we have conversations like this:

We're looking at a book and ds points to a dog and says, "Dockkkkkkkkk!" I say, "Yes, that's the dog. Dog, dog. Can you find the flower?" Ds points to flower and says, "Fffffffffsss." I say, "Yes, that's right!"

So "right" is pretty judgmental. I wouldn't tell him he was wrong if he pointed to the cat, but I don't know what else to say. He IS right. Not that even knows what right is, though. Like IdentityCrisisMama said, I think it's just the fact that I'm excited and enthusiastic that counts.

I don't think that is judgemental--that isthe way that language is learned! And it is very important to give feedback for this, and I think, for certain other things too.

I also think that when someone has genuinely contributed to you/the family/ others, it is important to acknowledge appreciation and be specific about it. No need for every little thing, but I do think it is a human need to feel noticed and appreciated, to have a sense of community.

I thought all Alfie Kohn was talking about was the tendency some have to praise every little thing someone does, and to use praise, either conciously or unconciously, as a way of manipulating future behaviors.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

guerrillamama said:


> siobhan -
> 
> "That said, my preference I think in that situation would be to say sometihng more like "Thank you for putting the garbage in the trash, that is really helpful." Because to me, the point is not "goodness," nor is it tidiness. The point, the whole reason that either of us would be putting the garbage in the trash, is to be helpful. "
> 
> ...


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

And, on the "you are really jumping high" I think that could go either way. Probably it is just no big deal. It is descriptive, it helps the kid learn language and it may reflect their excitement. If a parent did that all day long sure it would be irritating but a bit is no biggie. And, I can say that in that situation I may say something similar if I saw my kid was borderline between enjoying and not enjoying the activity and the parent may know the kid needs a bit of encouragement to stretch their boundaries a bit. With my son if I asked how he was feeling he might just bail, but noting he was jumping really high would give him a chance to say "yes and I'm scared" or "wow I like this".


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## BamBam'sMom (Jun 4, 2005)

If the kid were to point at the cat instead of the flower, you could just say, "That's the cat," then point to the flower and say, "That's the flower." There's nothing judgemental about that. I think it's better than not telling him.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emma_goldman*
Gotta read "Unconditional Parenting" by Alfie Kohn, sisters! The argument for non-praise is spelled out SO well and so clearly. It is hard to refute or to want to try to!

I read it. Did not and do not "buy it". Read "Intrinsic Motivation" That book refutes well and scientifically much of AK's work.

I think AK's theories are just that theories. I personally do not believe in most of them.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
I read it. Did not and do not "buy it". Read "Intrinsic Motivation" That book refutes well and scientifically much of AK's work.

Tell me more about this.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
I read it. Did not and do not "buy it".

UP resonated with me particularly because the ideas in the book were very similar to my perceptions about how I was raised. There was a lack of praise that I interpreted as unconditional acceptance and freedom to follow my own path. But, this co-existed quite well with parental pride and preferences for certain actions & choices...but it was as if they were in totally different spheres. It's hard to describe.

UP explains the effects of praise (or lack there of) on me it but it doesn't really get into the other "sphere" that I experienced.

I'm trying to figre this out as a parent. More and more though, I'm thinking that it's just because this is how it was for my parents...and not so much about how they parented. This is kind of a scary possibility. It's quite easy for me to mimic a parenting style. But, frankly, it's more difficult for me to imagine being quite as unconditional as (especially) one of my parents. Sigh.

I would also like to hear more about that other book. I always like your book suggestions.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
I read it. Did not and do not "buy it". Read "Intrinsic Motivation" That book refutes well and scientifically much of AK's work.

I think AK's theories are just that theories. I personally do not believe in most of them.

Kohn's theories are very similar to ones we have used for the last ten years in our family and found to build the kind of family we've wanted to have. I find Kohn's ideas to be well reasoned and logical.

And, really I must say I'm really skeptical of anyone who says "don't read that book". I've learned something from nearly everything I've ever read even if I disagree with it. What is so threatening about Kohn's ideas that a parent can't even read them and decide for themselves.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar*
And, really I must say I'm really skeptical of anyone who says "don't read that book". I've learned something from nearly everything I've ever read even if I disagree with it. What is so threatening about Kohn's ideas that a parent can't even read them and decide for themselves.

was she saying "don't buy the book" or was she saying "I don't buy his theories"? I interpreted her sentance as the latter but I could well be wrong.

I agree with Roar that pretty much any book is worth reading, even if just as an example of what NOT to do.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang*
was she saying "don't buy the book" or was she saying "I don't buy his theories"? I interpreted her sentance as the latter but I could well be wrong.

Oops. you are probably right. Thanks for catching my mistake!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Yea, "knowing" Maya44, I doubt she was telling anyone not to read it.


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## richella (Nov 30, 2004)

Okay I read the article but I'd have to say in all honesty that I probably won't read either of the books, though they probably are both very interesting, but I'm choosing to move away from a tendency to read a lot and think way too much. I'm seeing some of this here in this discussion. Kohn has some good points, but I think more important than any of them is to remain in contact with my intuition. I see the results of my words on dd and I adjust accordingly. If something I say or do shuts her down, I make a note of it and respond differently next time. My highest ideal is for her spirit to blossom, and I try to keep my personal objectives (eg keeping the juice off the floor) in check. I don't think there's one approach that is best for all kids, though. Some seek approval a lot, some couldn't care less, and that can't be attributed 100% to parenting styles.

(And no, I can't always say for certain whether dd spilled her juice intentionally or not, but sometimes I know without the slightest doubt that she did it on purpose! If you're having trouble with that, I could point you to some books on developing your intuition . . . .







)

Here's my question. I'm sure the "experts" have opinions on this. Do we need to be taught that we are good? We know that if we tell a child "you're ugly," or "You're stupid," repeatedly, that the child learns to believe it. Can we assume the opposite, that if we tell a child s/he is beautiful and brilliant, s/he will learn that it is true? What happens in the absence of any message? Right now I'm leaning toward the idea that self-esteem is ideally given from someone else at an early age. Like a seed, once it's planted, it grows on its own.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang*
Frankly, you cannot reason with a 2 1/2 year old. Older children, maybe. But in my mind, FIRST they need to learn the rules of behavior so that they get to live to become older children.

I dunno. My ds is 22mos and I've not praised him for anything, and dp only rarely. He's quite cooperative and considerate. And yes, I can reason with him. I don't expect him to comply instantly, and sometimes he does need to hear some acceptable alternatives if my goal is to get him to stop doing something. But there are definitely times that reason alone will get him to reconsider what he's doing.
If he pets the dog gently, I don't tell him "good job" I tell him that she likes when he pets her gently like that. I may even point out her ears, and say that's one way to tell when she's happy.
Even when I'm trying to change a certain behavior, I have found no need at all to praise. One was nipple biting. I'd tell him it hurt when he bit, and that it feels better to me when he uses his tongue. Then, when he nursed properly, I'd tell him that was the way that felt best to me.
Even though I do try to change some behaviors, it seems way more honest and straightforward to me to just tell him the why's and how it makes others feel. Straight out TELL him I want him to change, or continue to do something, and tell him why.

I don't think that all praise is evil. Or bad. I just think that it is mostly unecessary. And there are way more effective ways to communicate our pleasure with dc's actions, and to communicate to dc that we'd prefer they behave in a socially acceptable manner.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *guerrillamama*

So I don't get what's wrong with that. But as a self-proclaimed recovering priase junkie, I am still open to learning about this.

I didn't read praise into any of what you wrote.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

well, now i'm confused, because in some of these praise discussion threads (not this one), saying "thank you, that was helpful" or "i like it when you..." or "it makes me happy when you..." would be no-no's. or thatwas my understanding.

i thought part of the rationale of the no-praise philosophy was that you want to teach the child to act from internal motivation rather than a desire to make others happy. and i am arguing, well, sometimes it's really good to make other people happy. i think that's something worth teaching.

but maybe i am missing the point.

now, when i said i was a praise junkie, i was referring to the way I was raised. lots and lots and lots of self esteem. while this was obvioulsy better than the opposite extreme, i'm not sure that was good for me in every way. my sister has the same doubts. it was sort of crushing for us to hit the real world and discover that not everyone thought we were brilliant and beautiful and terribly witty, etc etc etc... and i have a tendency (from which i am recovering) to be desperate for affirmation from those i respect, and to think that if you're not praising me, you must despise me. so that is what intrigues me about Kohn, etc.


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## fuller2 (Nov 7, 2004)

This is really interesting to me. I am very tired now, but...

The praise thing, although I do do it sometimes, seems somehow condescending a lot of the time. Like, "Wow, you ate a banana! That's so wonderful!" It's like treating the child like some caricature of a child, not like a human being. To me it somehow lowers the bar too much, just because the person is 3 years old. My son really responds if you speak to him normally, like you would with anybody else. I feel that I am showing him how much I respect and value him as a human being by not going crazy over every little thing he does. (Now if I really like his art or song or something, though, I'll tell him, just like I would with a friend.) I have been amazed at how sophisticated, if that's the right word, his understanding is--kids really are capable of SO much more than we usually give them credit for. I think praising your child for every small event is telling them somehow that you don't think they're really capable--like it's an amazing shock every time they poop in the potty!! (or whatever)

To be honest, I've also been surprised at how well not overpraising or speaking baby talk (which is part of praising IMO) has gone with us. I don't know if I am doing it 'right', and I know I screw it up a fair amount, but I do know that things go better when I go with my gut feeling, which is not to overpraise. Though I am going to read Kohn's book as it's been recommended to me so many times.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

I'm just too dull, I guess, to think of the right way to say things. 'Good job!' or even 'good girl!' just fly right out of my mouth when I am spontaneously pleased or delighted by DD, which is all the time. I have read UP and I basically agree with the idea, but...in practice, for ME...it does not feel authentic to refrain from praise or to stop and wait while my brain conjures up a specific, descriptive, non-evaluative phrase. Although I try to think of what phrases I could use, in advance, so that a nonzero percentage of spontaneous expressions of delight do come out "correctly".

I am already sick of watching myself like a hawk to make sure that I do this parenting thing right. I feel much more alive and joyful when I just follow my gut, but then I come here and feel guilty and like I've copped out, because I "know better" than to do some of the things that come naturally, like saying "that's awesome!" when DD stacks blocks for the first time, or crying "DANGER!" when she attempts to stick her fingers in the electrical sockets at my mom's house. I know that instincts aren't always right, but (to me) it is really burdensome and anxiety-producing to monitor mine and my DH's every utterance to our DD. I don't know what the answer is, just sharing my experience.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *guerrillamama*
i thought part of the rationale of the no-praise philosophy was that you want to teach the child to act from internal motivation rather than a desire to make others happy.

The idea is that the child should act from internal motivation rather than a desire to make others happy _with him_. It's great if a child wants other people to be happy, but it's a problem if he wants to do things to make them happy just because he thinks then they'll love him and think he's wonderful. (And he doesn't expect to feel loved and wonderful unless he's doing something to make others happy.)

I try not to praise (not much, anyway), but I find myself wanting to give DD feedback when she does something helpful or considerate. Like if the baby starts fussing while I'm busy with something, and she runs to go give him a toy or talk to him, I feel like I want to comment on how kind and helpful that was, just to help teach her how her actions affect others. But what I've realized lately is that those kinds of comments are really unnecessary most of the time. Because, you know, it's not like she's just _accidentally_ being considerate. If she does something considerate, it means she _already_ has the impulse to be kind, and _already_ sees how her actions affect others. If I praise her for it (or just talk about it a lot with a happy tone of voice), I'm not teaching her anything - I just risk encouraging her to start doing it for the praise instead of to satisfy her natural impulse to be kind.

I do often say "thanks" when she does something helpful, just the way I would to an adult in the same circumstances. But I try not to make more of a big deal over it than I would to an adult. I mean, if your DH went to comfort the baby when he was fussing, you wouldn't say, "Oh, that was so considerate! Look how happy the baby is now! It really helped me out when you did that!"


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

Hm. Ok, I'll read the frickin book.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

The problem with these discussions is I think the message gets lost in the semantics. All Kohn was trying to do was to get us thinking about praise and how we use it. I don't believe he thinks we should not share our emotions or pride or joy in our children's accomplishments. He just reminds us to be very careful how it is expressed. I think this is because young children do not separate themselves from their actions and feelings the way we adults do. And also because I think there are far more useful lessons than "this is Good, that is Bad".

I don't buy behaviouralism as a means of discipline. I think it acts on deeper, more primitive parts of the brain that relate to survival, defense, etc. So the bottom line is we defend ourselves against hurt or perceived threats, both physical and emotional and it is on this level that praise and punishment work.

But humans are far more complex than that, and the skills we wish to teach our children are not just survival. We want them to problem-solve, to be empathetic to others, to be self-motivated and self-aware. These are "higher brain" functions, and I don't believe they work on the model that behaviouralism is based on.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

First, yes when I said I did not buy it, I meant Ak's theory not his book.

It is an intersting book. I just think it goes way too far and without ennough scientific back up.

The book I was referring to is a scholarly work called "Rewards and Intrinsic Motivation: Resolving the Contraversy" by Judy Cameron and Pierce (can't remember the first name).


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

I don't have an issue with praise, but I try (not always successfully) to be more descriptive than the tired old "good job!" -- although for me, it's more of a vocabulary development thing.

I want dd to have a rich vocabulary, and she won't if all she hears are the same 6 rote phrases over and over. Instead, because she hears a wide variety of feedback, she now describes herself as "tenacious" at the age of 4!


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammastar2*
I don't have an issue with praise, but I try (not always successfully) to be more descriptive than the tired old "good job!" -- although for me, it's more of a vocabulary development thing.

I want dd to have a rich vocabulary, and she won't if all she hears are the same 6 rote phrases over and over. Instead, because she hears a wide variety of feedback, she now describes herself as "tenacious" at the age of 4!









This is a good point! I am with you on this. I do a whole lot of unnecessary talking with my ds, not only praise. I explain things, I tell little stories, I sing unsolicited songs...I am a real chatterbox. It's starting to pay off, too!

Now that you frame it that way, I feel better about the praise/extrinsic motivation issue. A lot of my external validation problem is me saying "Very funny! Well put!" to ds.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*

It is an intersting book. I just think it goes way too far and without ennough scientific back up.


I question the role of science in parenting. I have made my parenting decisions by what feels right to me - what instintively seems like a good fit for our family, by thinking about the gold rule and by analyzing what can be explained logically in ways that make sense. Really, I think it is very difficult to produce good scientific research on many topics in parenting. It is very difficult to control for the variety of variables involved and a lot of the research on topics like breastfeeding and spanking isn't particularly good in my opinion. But, really I'm not waiting for the weight of scientific evidence to decide how I parent.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
First, yes when I said I did not buy it, I meant Ak's theory not his book.

It is an intersting book. I just think it goes way too far and without ennough scientific back up.

The book I was referring to is a scholarly work called "Rewards and Intrinsic Motivation: Resolving the Contraversy" by Judy Cameron and Pierce (can't remember the first name).

I was intrigued by this and thought I might be able to get the book you mention from the library. I googled to try to get the bibliographic details and found this page:

http://www.psych.rochester.edu/SDT/cont_reward.html

Apparently this is an unresolved controversy among psychologists! These folks are professors at the University of Rochester, and they think their research proves that external rewards do undermine intrinsic motivation.

I am not a psychologist and I do not know how to evaluate the claims and counterclaims of the two camps. It seems like both sides have published recently, in reputable journals. Both have undergone peer review.

So I don't know! I do like to feel that there is some research backing up my parenting decisions.

What I do know is that there is a consensus that _talking_ is good and using a lot of different words is good. That comes from the Hart and Risley research on language acquisition.

I also know that my psychotherapist (who is in the cognitive-behavioral camp and has a PhD from a major university) thinks that punishment is bad and rewards are good. (For adults, that is--she keeps advising me to reward myself and NOT to punish myself, if I want to get things done. I have not asked her about parenting because I am pretty happy about my relationship with my kid and I need my therapy hour to work on my relationships with everyone else!)

So far I am very happy with my child's behavior and his ability to motivate himself to do things. So if I'm screwing this up, I must not be screwing it up too badly.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
Apparently this is an unresolved controversy among psychologists! These folks are professors at the University of Rochester, and they think their research proves that external rewards do undermine intrinsic motivation.

Yep, I also looked up that book a while back when it was mentioned in another thread. I found the page you linked to, and some other stuff. This is what I said in the other thread:

Thanks! I did a bit of internet research based on this info, and it appears that there is a big controversy in this field, with the researchers Kohn cites on one side and the authors of the above book on the other side. Apparently everyone on both sides agrees that there are conditions where rewards reduce intrinsic motivation and/or creativity. The controversy is over how likely those conditions are to occur and how easy it is to avoid them. Both sides also seem to agree that, at least in some situations, rewards can be given without reducing intrinsic motivation.

It would be interesting to read more about this, but as far as I can see, the take-home message for us parents is that rewards CAN be harmful if they're the wrong kind of rewards or given in the wrong way, and (given that figuring out the right way to reward is something that psychologists are devoting their whole careers to, and arguing vehemently about) parents who try to encourage certain behaviors through rewards are quite likely to do it in an ineffective way.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fuller2*
I think praising your child for every small event is telling them somehow that you don't think they're really capable--like it's an amazing shock every time they poop in the potty!! (or whatever)

yes, ita.

I love this quote from TCC, that says the same type of thing:
"The familiar expedients of praise and blame wreak havoc upon the motives of children, especially the smallest ones. If the child does something useful, like putting on his own clothes or feeding the dog, bringing in a handful of field flowers or making an ashtray from a lump of clay, nothing can be more discouraging than an expression of surprise that he has behaved socially: "Oh, what a good girl!" "Look what Georgie has made all by himself!" and similar exclamations imply that sociality is unexpected, uncharacteristic, and unusual in the child." TCC 88

and when you pair it with this, you can see how (according to JL's observations) praise can have counterproductive results.
"One of the deepest impulses in the very social human animal is to do what he perceives is expected of him." TCC 79

I think its important to remember that AK is not against praise. He has some guidelines to follow for _better_ praise. He's just way not into "good job" kwim?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *guerrillamama*
well, now i'm confused, because in some of these praise discussion threads (not this one), saying "thank you, that was helpful" or "i like it when you..." or "it makes me happy when you..." would be no-no's. or thatwas my understanding.

i thought part of the rationale of the no-praise philosophy was that you want to teach the child to act from internal motivation rather than a desire to make others happy. and i am arguing, well, sometimes it's really good to make other people happy. i think that's something worth teaching.

I think SOME parenting styles go further into not wanting to interfere in kids' actions at all.
I think one distinction is that, for example, I tell ds that the dog likes it when he pets her nicely. I tell him how his action to her is affecting her. I don't share MY value judgement of that. And he does it because it makes HER feel good (and doesn't hit her because that hurts her), not because of MY opinion of his actions. (Well, I don't _let_ him hit her, but I really don't think that's his motivation for not doing it. kwim?)
I think "i like it when you..." could be used for actions that directly affect the person saying it. Because they are saying how THEY are experiencing the actions. "I like it when you touch me gently."
"It makes me happy when you..."...I understand why that was considered a no-no. lol. Because dc aren't responsible for your feelings. No one _makes_ you feel any way. I think that one could be a slippery slope. It puts a lot of emphasis on what the parent thinks, and not much on what the child did, his reasons for doing it, and how HE feels about it.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

I am finding this discussion very interesting!

We do not use praise as a control tool. I did not grow up with it being used. The few times my mom tried to "build my self esteem" with praise, it felt really fake and I called her on it. However, I still grew up wanting to be a good person and developing talents/skills/studies for my own enjoyment. OTOH, dh grew up and still has a praise-junkie relationship with his mother. It is difficult for dh to live as an adult in a world that does not slather on the praise. It was these relationships that lead us to question prasie. So reading Alfie Kohn's books was really reaffirming ideas we already had. It also, incidently, falls in line with John Holt's books that I read many years ago (and reread regularly) that lead us to our educational theories (we are unschoolers).

I saw early on that a pp stated that she is trying to "control" her children. This might really be the fork in the road for people on this forum. I have no interest in finding tools to help me control my child. So things like praise, rewards, punishment, etc.... do not have any use to me. If a parent feels that controlling their child is part of their parenting, then it becomes a questions of which method of control is most effective/least damaging. And praise (along with rewards) often comes out as a "positive" control method rather than a "negative" like spanking/shame/consequences.

I think in the case of the OP's example, that person is likely coming from a control parenting model to one of less/no control. And I am sure that is not an easy transformation. That person is probably in the spot where they have to overthink many interactions a day. It seems like a lot of work and like there is little distinction in the phrases. May people new to Kohn's idea feel this way. And the child might be reading the words the same way anyway. So yes, I do see that. But I do not think that is a reason to abandon ship. I do not have to overthink these things. We started from a place of no praise and it is natural and normal for me to communicate with dd without using praise.

Wow. That was long and pretty muddy


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

I agree that one need not parent by science.

One should do what feels right.

I don't reward excpet in the sense that I do praise.

I just sometimes feel that Alfie Kohn's work here is taken by people as an "absolute truth" rather than a theory.

I personally do not feel that children are harmed by TRUE praise. Not empty praise or praise for praise sake.

But when people obsess over not saying "good job" I just don't get it.

Unlike spanking or harsh punishment, I think that there are two valid sides to the praise issue.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

There was a time when people thought if you wanted to raise an independent child, you needed to teach him early to be independent: Don't pick him up every time he cried, let him cry himself to sleep, and put him to sleep alone in his crib.

On the surface, its makes sense. Except that the data indicate its exactly wrong. To encourage a child to be independent in later life, you give him tons of attachment and meet his needs while he is young.

On the surface, Alfie Kohn's ideas make a kind of sense. If you don't want a child to grow up to be a praise junkie, and to be able to find activities intrinsically rewarding, you don't praise them when they are young.

Except I believe its wrong. Children who are given feedback regarding their behavior grow up feeling secure that they know that what they are doing is correct. As they get older and their cognitive abilities develop further, and with assistance from the parents, they can start to question the reason why they do things, and choose the reasons for doing things.

Giving a child praise for doing things well will not turn him into a praise junkie. Children have a need to know that what they are doing is correct or incorrect. Children have a need to know how to get along within their culture (and can later choose to act contrary to that culture by their own choice). A need that is met in childhood goes away. If children are never given feedback on their behavior, and that includes value judgments, as adults they will flounder, still looking for that feedback and reassurance that they didn't get as children.

To turn a child into a praise junkie, unable to derive internal joy from doing things, then fail to provide him warmth and nurture in general. Fail to meet his needs for attachment and he will be forever seeking it out as an adult through trying to please his boss or other authority figure. Only show love when he does exactly as you want him to. When he is doing something that he enjoys, such as fingerpainting, interrupt that activity several times, redirect his attention away from the activity and onto you, which he will enjoy, since you have deprived him of your attention at other times, making it all the more meaningful.

Use of praise should be sensitive to the child's needs, and then it is not only appropriate, it is essential for his development and well-being. For example, when I ask someone to read something I have written, I'm looking for feedback. If you say, "You wrote a story!" that doesn't tell me anything or help me. If you say, "The part about the walrus really works for me; I found myself empathizing with the walrus and actually laughed aloud at the end. Really nice pacing and dialogue there. At the part about the crocodile, I felt lost. That part didn't work for me," I think I would feel satisfaction at the parts that were done well, and use the criticism to find a better way to rewrite that part. I might even feel badly at the parts that didn't work, and that's okay, too.

I think the main thing is to be sensitive to what the child is needing at any given time. Sometimes being praised feels like judgment and gets in the way of what the child is doing. If a parent praises a child and the child stops doing the behavior, its a pretty good indicator that praise was not what the child wanted or needed. If a parent praises a child and the child focuses even more on doing that activity, its probably what the child needed.

I guess I'm just saying what several other posters have said, that praise is sometimes helpful, sometimes not, but being at either extreme (no praise vs. too much praise) is definitely harmful to the child.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

I think I was the PP who used the word control.

I meant it in regard to his specific behavior right now - he is 2 1/2 and tends to do very very harmful things (grabbing knives, running out of the house, grabbing my keys and trying to start the car - and yes, that is a direct, recent example) if not watched, guided, redirected, and yes, controlled - especially since he has no impulse control right now and therefore I need to be his impulse control for him to make it to his next birthday.

This is just one, and hopefully temporary, part of parenting. I am also trying to teach him right from wrong (gentle touch when petting a dog is not just about protecting the dog but also protecting my child!) so that he knows what the rules of social behavior are. He mimics us a lot and we try to give positive reinforcement when he gets it "right" (such as washing hands after diaper change, cleaning up after himself, or saying thank you when someone hands him something). I know that he doesn't understand WHY we do these things, but personally I don't care. I want the habits instilled NOW and we can explain why we do these things later. I personally believe this is a HUGE part of parenting - socialization of the child. Frankly, a child who learns to say thank you instinctively, even if he doesn't know why, will have an easier time in life than a child who doesn't. Just my opinion, of course! ; )

And I am also trying to encourage all his new skills - language, arts, creativity, motor skills, etc. So that he gets internal rewards from learning and testing and so forth.

All in all, it is a huge challenge to do all of this and keep sane! ; )

Siobhan


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie*
Except I believe its wrong. Children who are given feedback regarding their behavior grow up feeling secure that they know that what they are doing is correct. As they get older and their cognitive abilities develop further, and with assistance from the parents, they can start to question the reason why they do things, and choose the reasons for doing things.

Sure, but you can give feedback without praise (without a value judgement)

Quote:

Use of praise should be sensitive to the child's needs, and then it is not only appropriate, it is essential for his development and well-being. For example, when I ask someone to read something I have written, I'm looking for feedback. If you say, "You wrote a story!" that doesn't tell me anything or help me. If you say, "The part about the walrus really works for me; I found myself empathizing with the walrus and actually laughed aloud at the end. Really nice pacing and dialogue there. At the part about the crocodile, I felt lost. That part didn't work for me," I think I would feel satisfaction at the parts that were done well, and use the criticism to find a better way to rewrite that part. I might even feel badly at the parts that didn't work, and that's okay, too.
I don't see how any of that is praise







Its specific feedback. At the very most, you may be able to call it specific praise, where the "value judgement" is all but lost in the other info. But I don't see a value judgement- I see someone telling you how your story affected them. Praise would be "good writing" lol

Quote:

I guess I'm just saying what several other posters have said, that praise is sometimes helpful, sometimes not, but being at either extreme (no praise vs. too much praise) is definitely harmful to the child
I disagree that no praise is harmful. No feedback? Probably harmful. But giving feedback while refraining from value judgements, I'm sure is not harmful.

And I'd like to add that, although AK did start my thinking about praise, it is not the reason I continue to not praise. (I actually don't really like his "5 reasons to not say good job" Even I could argue against some of them lol. Plus, I think it misses some really good reasons to not praise).
I loved the small bit on praise in TCC. And, I've not used it, and have yet to see a situation where praise would have been better than my non-judgemental feedback.
I also have seen how praise from others DOES affect his motivation to do things. Not dp- when he praises (rarely) he is really specific (I don't see that as harmful, if its not overdone). But grandparents. His actions change. He definitely has different motivations for doing x again. And when they went on about how good he was to throw trash in the trash can, he actually stopped for a few days.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie*

Giving a child praise for doing things well will not turn him into a praise junkie. Children have a need to know that what they are doing is correct or incorrect. Children have a need to know how to get along within their culture (and can later choose to act contrary to that culture by their own choice). A need that is met in childhood goes away. If children are never given feedback on their behavior, and that includes value judgments, as adults they will flounder, still looking for that feedback and reassurance that they didn't get as children.

I guess I'm just saying what several other posters have said, that praise is sometimes helpful, sometimes not, but being at either extreme (no praise vs. too much praise) is definitely harmful to the child.

How do you respond to the fact that many of us have followed this approach and we are seeing that our children are not floundering, but in fact are growing into confident, responsible beings. You are using words like praise is "essential" and avoiding it is "definately harmful". Are you suggesting that are kids are harmed but we thier parents just can't figure it out?

I don't have a lot of time but I"ll mention two things I think you are missing about Kohn's and others approaches. One, is that there is a different between praise and encouragement and there is nothing wrong with expressing genuine emotion to the child. No one is suggesting that children be raised in isolation with no indications of what their parents' wishes. What Kohn is suggesting is that parents be mindful of the cultural tendency to try to manipulate and control the feelings and actions of children and that this tendency can deny parents and children the kind of deep and authentic relationship that benefits both of them.

Secondly, I find your approach to be suggesting that basically little ones are too cognitively impaired to function without praise. Older people can function without it because they are smart enough to understand other ideas. That isn't an argument that to me makes sense at all. The core is about respect. Everyone deserves it. When I cook dinner it would be insulting for someone to clap and say "good mama, you are a very good mama" or when I burn dinner for them to say "boo, bad job mama, next time don't burn it". It is no more appropriate to speak to a two year old in that manner.

Also, I'm curious - have you read Kohn's book?


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang*
I think I was the PP who used the word control.

I meant it in regard to his specific behavior right now - he is 2 1/2 and tends to do very very harmful things (grabbing knives, running out of the house, grabbing my keys and trying to start the car - and yes, that is a direct, recent example) if not watched, guided, redirected, and yes, controlled - especially since he has no impulse control right now and therefore I need to be his impulse control for him to make it to his next birthday.

This is just one, and hopefully temporary, part of parenting. I am also trying to teach him right from wrong (gentle touch when petting a dog is not just about protecting the dog but also protecting my child!) so that he knows what the rules of social behavior are. He mimics us a lot and we try to give positive reinforcement when he gets it "right" (such as washing hands after diaper change, cleaning up after himself, or saying thank you when someone hands him something). I know that he doesn't understand WHY we do these things, but personally I don't care. I want the habits instilled NOW and we can explain why we do these things later. I personally believe this is a HUGE part of parenting - socialization of the child. Frankly, a child who learns to say thank you instinctively, even if he doesn't know why, will have an easier time in life than a child who doesn't. Just my opinion, of course! ; )

And I am also trying to encourage all his new skills - language, arts, creativity, motor skills, etc. So that he gets internal rewards from learning and testing and so forth.

All in all, it is a huge challenge to do all of this and keep sane! ; )

Siobhan

Yep, that is where we follow different paths. I do not believe my job is to socialize dd. That is her job. I do not want to try and control dd into saying thank you or not grabbing knives. She will learn gratitude when she is ready. I do want her to know why. I think that is very important. I taught her how to use knives and keep them out of reach when I cannot supervise her. I also keep the keys out of reach. It is, as I said earlier, the "big divide" in GD parenting. There is the camp that does not have interest in controlling behavior and the camp that does. Those will obviously have very different techniques and attitudes about children in general. That includes the thoughts about praise and other methods to "control" children. It also includes the ideas about whether reaosning with children is possible. My experience has been that children can be very reasonable at very young ages. But that might not be true for children that are used to being frequently manipulated to get a certain result. They mgiht not be capable of reasoning because they have not been allowed to in as many situations (less practice).

This divide errupted a bit at MILs house last week. I was not there but heard aboutt he long teary discussion from both parties (dh and MIL). MIL was doing the "say please......" routine with dd. She was dangling the food item dd asked for over her head and was gently demanding a please before she would hand it over. Dd was not going to say it. She is VERY polite for a 2.75 yo but digs her heels in the minute someone tries to make her say or do anything. Dh put an end to the interaction. Told MIL to either give it to her or not but to stop the please thing. They had a one hour emotional discussion on it. And what it boiled down to is that MIL really feels that children should be made to do what they "need" to do and she does not see value in explainations and such. She said she did not have time for that sort of thing when her kids were young and the time commitment seemed crazy to her and she was not going to attempt it. She felt kids need to learn to do the thing then learn why as they are developmentally ready. Dh disagreed. He (and I) do not see non-manipulative parenting as a waste of time or even a bigger time commitment. We feel dd is capable of being reasoned with and can understand complex social interactions at early ages rather than just being told (or made to do) what she is "suppose" to. Neither side was going to change thier mind so we are stuck. But that is am example. Praise has no use when manipulation is off the parenting table. Praise has a great deal of use if needed as a way to make kids do what the parents feels they need to.


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## hubris (Mar 8, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
What I mean (I think







) is that kids pick up on our true intentions regardless of the language. And, while attention to language is certainly important, it pales in comparison to what we're actually feeling.

I find that changing what I say/do is important in helping to change/reinforce how I think. Habits can help to drive mindsets. At least for me.









Sometimes something I say reflects an undesirable way of thinking.
Sometimes something I start making an effort to say or not say helps to remind me to think another way, and eventually this becomes more effortless.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

I remain undecided on the whole praise issue but I have to take issue with this.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie*
To turn a child into a praise junkie, unable to derive internal joy from doing things, then fail to provide him warmth and nurture in general. Fail to meet his needs for attachment and he will be forever seeking it out as an adult through trying to please his boss or other authority figure. Only show love when he does exactly as you want him to. When he is doing something that he enjoys, such as fingerpainting, interrupt that activity several times, redirect his attention away from the activity and onto you, which he will enjoy, since you have deprived him of your attention at other times, making it all the more meaningful.

The parenting style you've described here could not be further from my mom's approach. I don't know why my sister and I are praise junkies, and I'm not even sure that it's due to parenting style, but I assure you this is _not_ how we got there.


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## Emmom (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar*
The core is about respect. Everyone deserves it. When I cook dinner it would be insulting for someone to clap and say "good mama, you are a very good mama" or when I burn dinner for them to say "boo, bad job mama, next time don't burn it". It is no more appropriate to speak to a two year old in that manner.

laughup

...oh, so true

For me, UP was one of those books that seeps into your perception--feel what you will about it when you read it, but you'll start to see interactions in a different light.

I think that the important thing is that you're not a constant judgmental presence. I don't praise my son, because I'm not the Judge. I do have fun with him, get enthusiastic with him, laugh with him, and, yes, give him feedback if he seems to be seeking it (OK, he's only 16 months, but it seems clear to me when he wants me to reflect on what he's done with him... not that often, but sometimes.)

At the ILs, on the other hand, I can see that he feels like he's on a stage. He becomes a performer for them because they do follow him around saying, "good job," "good jumping," "good sweeping," etc., etc. His every move becomes a social interaction with them, when he would have otherwise been happy exploring on his own some of the time that he's there. I think it's fine and nice for his time with his relatives to be full of this social interaction, but if his whole life was like that, when would he have time to quietly explore? When would he feel safe to mess up and make mistakes without feeling watched and judged?

This all sounds a little dramatic, but I can see the difference between when he's just living life on his own terms, and when he's on stage, being Praised.

-Emily


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## hubris (Mar 8, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar*
Right is no biggie in my book, but if you are looking for alternatives I might say "that sure is a yellow duck" "looks like the duck is swimming" "I wonder if the duck and rabbit are friends", etc. I think that is more like a real conversation. Yes, it adds more vocabulary words but I've never seen that as a bad thing.

It's not a bad thing, expanding on what a child says is very helpful to language development.









I do avoid saying "you're right, that's a duck" or something similar, but instead might describe the duck or make duck noises or otherwise talk about the duck to expand on what Reese (who did say "duck" today) said. He knows he's right, no need for me to tell him, but I can mirror his excitement and provide more language information for him.

For Griff, who is starting to recognize some words by sight, I can say "you recognized the word FOX. And yes, there's another FOX on that page. You found it twice! You look really excited!"

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar*
I've learned something from nearly everything I've ever read even if I disagree with it.

I have to agree with that! I have Kohn's book on my shelf waiting to be read. So far what I've read about UP is good food for thought, even when I'm not sure I agree with it. Heck, I've even read some Dobson (because my mom is a big fan of his parenting stuff














and even though I don't like his attitude or advice, I learned a lot about my mom, and that was helpful to me in parenting my own children.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Roar said:


> The core is about respect. Everyone deserves it. When I cook dinner it would be insulting for someone to clap and say "good mama, you are a very good mama" It is no more appropriate to speak to a two year old in that manner.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Okay, but very very few adults would be insulted if you said to them "good job on the dinner"


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar*
No one is suggesting that children be raised in isolation with no indications of what their parents' wishes. What Kohn is suggesting is that parents be mindful of the cultural tendency to try to manipulate and control the feelings and actions of children and that this tendency can deny parents and children the kind of deep and authentic relationship that benefits both of them.

If this is what Kohn is saying, then I think he is correct.

What I've seen on this board, though, is quite a few posts on how to word things so that none of the parents' values come through. I don't know if this is what AK advocates or not. This is what I'm opposed to - not sharing your values as parents and humans. I believe that before children can arrive at their own values, they need a foundation from which to explore. The foundation of the parents' values provides the security from which the child can explore and discover that his own values may differ somewhat, or may not.

I believe it is comparable to being hard-wired for language. Humans are wired to learn language, but not a specific language. If you were to deprive them of hearing language or speaking to them at all under the guise of "I want them to develop their OWN language and not have one forced on them" the child will not develop language, will be deprived of an essential part of his humaness, and after a certain critical age passes, become incapable of learning any language. When they have language, any language, they can then choose to learn a different language if they want.

Humans are also hard-wired to learn values from their parents and their culture. If we deprive them of this by reflecting back only observations regarding their behavior, with no judgment as to the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of their behavior, we will have deprived them of a part of human wholeness.

I agree that when praise is used to manipulate or control the child, it can be harmful to the child. But when praise is used as feedback or to encourage a behavior, I think this is essential.

To me, saying, "I liked the way you shared your blocks with Jenny," is the same thing as saying, "Good job sharing your blocks." They both indicate the child has pleased the parent. When you throw out ALL praise, because SOME of it may be an attempt to control the child, you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater. This is where I have problems, with the extreme view that a parent should only reflect back to the child observations about the child's behavior without sharing, sometimes, how the parent feels about that behavior.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar*
Also, I'm curious - have you read Kohn's book?

No - I'm scared to. I mean no offense - I honestly don't - but it seems sometimes Alfie Kohn's work is advocated with an almost religious fervor. That really bothers me, enough so that I'm reluctant to read his work for fear I'll get caught up in that fervor.

From what you have said about AK, I think I would like him. I definitely don't like the idea of controlling children with reinforcers or punishers.


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## Emmom (Sep 11, 2005)

maya44 said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Roar*
> ...


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## Emmom (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie*
If this is what Kohn is saying, then I think he is correct.

What I've seen on this board, though, is quite a few posts on how to word things so that none of the parents' values come through. I don't know if this is what AK advocates or not. This is what I'm opposed to - not sharing your values as parents and humans. I believe that before children can arrive at their own values, they need a foundation from which to explore. The foundation of the parents' values provides the security from which the child can explore and discover that his own values may differ somewhat, or may not.

I believe it is comparable to being hard-wired for language. Humans are wired to learn language, but not a specific language. If you were to deprive them of hearing language or speaking to them at all under the guise of "I want them to develop their OWN language and not have one forced on them" the child will not develop language, will be deprived of an essential part of his humaness, and after a certain critical age passes, become incapable of learning any language. When they have language, any language, they can then choose to learn a different language if they want.

Humans are also hard-wired to learn values from their parents and their culture. If we deprive them of this by reflecting back only observations regarding their behavior, with no judgment as to the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of their behavior, we will have deprived them of a part of human wholeness.

I agree that when praise is used to manipulate or control the child, it can be harmful to the child. But when praise is used as feedback or to encourage a behavior, I think this is essential.

To me, saying, "I liked the way you shared your blocks with Jenny," is the same thing as saying, "Good job sharing your blocks." They both indicate the child has pleased the parent. When you throw out ALL praise, because SOME of it may be an attempt to control the child, you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater. This is where I have problems, with the extreme view that a parent should only reflect back to the child observations about the child's behavior without sharing, sometimes, how the parent feels about that behavior.


This is so interesting to me. It really reflects a basic difference in philosophy of how children learn. My parents are big praisers. Also, they carry babies around and point to things and say the word: "Cat! Cat! That's a cat!" (enunciating the word VERY clearly.)
I don't think that it's necessary to isolate words and repeat them over and over in order for kids to learn words. They hear them used, in context, in their environment, and pick up language that way.
I feel the same way about values. If you're living your life side-by-side with your kids, you'd be hard-put to hide your values. They'll pick up on it. There's no need to give them running commentary on how generous they are, kind they are, good they are, (or are not), in order for them to learn to be generous, kind, and good.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

BellinghamCrunchie said:


> "What I've seen on this board, though, is quite a few posts on how to word things so that none of the parents' values come through. I don't know if this is what AK advocates or not. This is what I'm opposed to - not sharing your values as parents and humans. I believe that before children can arrive at their own values, they need a foundation from which to explore. The foundation of the parents' values provides the security from which the child can explore and discover that his own values may differ somewhat, or may not. "
> 
> I think you really need to read the book and judge for yourself. As they say in La Leche League, take what works for you and leave the rest.
> 
> ...


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Emmom*
I feel the same way about values. If you're living your life side-by-side with your kids, you'd be hard-put to hide your values. They'll pick up on it. There's no need to give them running commentary on how generous they are, kind they are, good they are, (or are not), in order for them to learn to be generous, kind, and good.

Yes, that is very well put and I agree.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
Okay, but very very few adults would be insulted if you said to them "good job on the dinner"

Really if they said "you are a very good girl, good job cooking". That wouldn't irritate the heck out of you? How about if they said it not on the night when you thought you'd cooked a masterpiece but when burned dinner and as an after thought you slapped together barely marginal food. In other words if they said it when it didn't at all reflect what you were feeling about your effort? Personally I'd rather my family said "thank you" and then if there was something they particularly enjoyed that the commented about that honestly - as in "hey mom I love this cole slaw, I hope you'll make it again".

How about instead of an act of service like cooking dinner you were doing something for yourself like brushing your teeth, walking, or quilting? How about if it happened not once a day but say 30 times a day?


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *guerrillamama*
Hm. Ok, I'll read the frickin book.

Do, do read it! I was so inspired and excited and just really happy about it. It fit the rest of my life way better than any other parenting book I've read.

I think it is a deeply political book on many levels.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sadie_sabot*
I think it is a deeply political book on many levels.

Yeah, whatever. You are just sayin gthat to get me to read it.









You know you can get me to read a take-out menu by telling me it's "deeply political."


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

You know, when the book was new, I was pondering wether or not to buy it andselu said, "just to give you an idea, I keep this book on my political shelf instead of my parenting shelf." so I ran right out and bought it.

and am glad I did.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

Huh. Well that Selu is trouble anyways. So, are you talking about UP or PBR?


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie*
To me, saying, "I liked the way you shared your blocks with Jenny," is the same thing as saying, "Good job sharing your blocks." They both indicate the child has pleased the parent.

Yes, they are the same! Those are both the kinds of statements Alfie Kohn disapproves of. It's easy to get confused about his ideas if you haven't actually read his books, because so many of the people who post on threads like these misunderstand and misrepresent them. A lot of people seem to think there's something particularly bad about the words "good job," for instance, and that if you just substitute some more specific praise it will be better.

The whole problem with those statements about block sharing is just what you said about them: "They both indicate the child has pleased the parent." Those of us who aren't into praise try to teach our children how sharing benefits the person the child shares with, not how sharing makes us happy and proud.


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *guerrillamama*
Huh. Well that Selu is trouble anyways. So, are you talking about UP or PBR?

wait, what? Unconditional Parenting or Pabst Blue Ribbon?

Huh??


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

Punished By Rewards

But if Pabst Blue Ribbon is deeply political, I wanna hear about that too.


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

Oh, yeah, Pabst /blkue Riobbon is deeply political cuz when you're hung over from it, you'll want to change your life. Or, so I recall frommy wild twenties...









I haven't read punished by rewards. I think UP is good because it is an overall framework, with a lot of evidence referenced, instead of basing all of his stuff on his own moral framework like most parenting book authors do.

But, it's challenging. to see praise/rewards as the flip side of the punishment coin can be rough on folks, but it makes sense to me. What I think is needed is a paradigm shift in this country around parenting, and his book has some good stuff for that. It didn't cause a paradigm shift around my house., but it scertainly helped me feel strong in what I want and how I want to get it, wrt my parenting. And a big part of the book is thinking about the well being of the child, not the needs of the parent (ie, how can I get them to do what I want them to do)


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

I was wondering what was political about Pabst too


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

ITA with Daffodil. I think a non-praise thing to say would be "Jenny seems pretty happy that she has blocks to play with." (if she did, indeed, seem happy, of course). Well, if I felt the need to say anything at all. I've seen ds share on his own, and I'm pretty sure he gets it








The focus isn't on how the parent feels about the sharing, but on how his actions are affecting Jenny.

And I'd not like to hear "Good job cooking dinner. You're such a good dp!" (ok, I know I just added the second sentence there.) I may not be offended, but it would seem...um, wierd.
But "Dinner was good" I like to hear that. (sometimes I need to hear it. But I don't feel great about my dinner cooking abilities, sometimes. lol). To me, it seems different. "Dinner was good" is how dp is experiencing the dinner. Not his judgement of my actions or of me. He can judge the dinner. But don't judge me! lol.
And if dp cleans the windows, I may say "the windows look really clean. Cool!" but I wouldn't say "Good job window cleaning." I dunno. It just sounds wierd. I've never been a good job'er though. So it's easy for me to stay away from it. I've always tried to be specific about what I like that someone has done for me, to show that I really do appreciate it and I'm not just saying it. kwim? Like "I've watched that dvd you bought for me 3 times already. I loved it!"


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Just thought I would weigh in on radically unschooling values.







We don't control our child or praise him for following our values. He is inherently observant, and attuned to social conventions (people's interactions). And he seeks information from his environment which includes me, dh, the cats, the babysitter, the grocery clerk, etc. But, we don't judge his actions except as they impact us directly and then we provide authentic feedback while owning our own feelings. We also help to direct his awareness toward other's verbal and non-verbal feedback (facial grimaces, twitching tails, hissing, smiles, body language, etc.).

He is able to discern and reason quite well. And we have trusted his ability to do so since he was an infant. I imagine that children DO live up or down to our expectations of their abilties to observe, discern, reason or learn from their enviornment. Thankfully, I read The Continuum Concept when ds was quite young; so I held my praise. And our son listens to his own inner compass and inner voice about his behavior and other's reactions within his own internal value system.

This works for us.









Pat, not in the control your child camp. We live by consent: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consensual-living/


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy*
And if dp cleans the windows, I may say "the windows look really clean. Cool!" but I wouldn't say "Good job window cleaning." I dunno. It just sounds wierd.


I would. Well I would say "Good job on the windows babe!" Does not sound wierd to me at all.

I simply do not believe that MOST people would consider such a statement "disrespectful".

Thus the pp (not Deva33mommy) who claimed this is a "respect" issue is IMHO simply off base.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar*
The core is about respect. Everyone deserves it. When I cook dinner it would be insulting for someone to clap and say "good mama, you are a very good mama" or when I burn dinner for them to say "boo, bad job mama, next time don't burn it". It is no more appropriate to speak to a two year old in that manner.


\

Saying "good mama" is like saying "good girl" Something I would not do and which I agree is inappropriate to say to anyone.

But saying "good job" would not be considered by most in any way equivalent!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funshine*
I find that changing what I say/do is important in helping to change/reinforce how I think. Habits can help to drive mindsets. At least for me.









Sometimes something I say reflects an undesirable way of thinking.
Sometimes something I start making an effort to say or not say helps to remind me to think another way, and eventually this becomes more effortless.

Yea, I can see that for sure. That's a big part of why I try to be thoughtful about how DC and I interact and I'm sure it's true for all the rest of us here.

But I also observe, both in myself and in conversations here, a focus on language. For instance, when we talk about the phrases "Good job cleaning the windows." and "Those windows are really clean." what are we talking about?

Is there some intrinsic difference in what the parent actually means? Do we think the child feels differently about those two phrases? Obviously some of us do but why? Isn't it because we feel differently and it's coming through in our language?


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## hubris (Mar 8, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
But I also observe, both in myself and in conversations here, a focus on language. For instance, when we talk about the phrases "Good job cleaning the windows." and "Those windows are really clean." what are we talking about?

Is there some intrinsic difference in what the parent actually means? Do we think the child feels differently about those two phrases? Obviously some of us do but why? Isn't it because we feel differently and it's coming through in our language?

Sometimes I can see the difference and sometimes I can't.







I'll give it a stab today (but had to stare at the screen, eyes glazing over, and think about it for a long time first).

"Good job cleaning the windows" is more of a pat on the head. It's a reward, sortof like saying "you did something industrious, you're a good person." It's not much different from a star on a chart or a cookie or a letter grade on a test or any other form of praise that doesn't naturally relate to the action of the child. People who criticize use of praise would suggest that rewarding a child in this way encourages them to become "praise junkies" who require future pats on the head. Remove the pat, and they aren't terribly motivated to do the job.

"Those windows are really clean" focuses instead on the actual result of the child's actions. The idea is that the finished job is its own reward. Clean the windows and look, they're sparkly and let in the light nicely. People who favor this type of feedback for kids would suggest that the child is learning to do something for the natural result of that task, or because they simply like that task. These children would then, hopefully, be more intrinsically motivated, rather than working for the approval of a parent/teacher/boss/spouse.

That's the theory, as far as I can explain it.

The reason many of us LIKE hearing "good job" is because we grew up hearing it so much that we became accustomed to it and now are somewhat motivated by it. Some of us are bigger junkies than others. Just because we feel ok with it doesn't mean it's desirable.

I'm not quite sure where I fall. I agree with the anti-praise theory for the most part, but also know that in many walks of life, approval of another might be a necessary part of a relationship or job. I think the idea is that a person who is intrinsically motivated would still *earn* approval, because they would be motivated to do good work to start with, but they wouldn't *depend* on it.

I also think that a kid loving something doesn't necessarily mean it's good for them. Griff loves getting a thumbs-up or "good job" or high-five. But he also loves eating large amounts of chocolate. Doesn't mean I have to give him large amounts of praise or chocolate.







I try to give him healthier interactions and healthier food.









I'm feeling myself start to ramble, so I'll stop there.







:


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## MammaKoz (Dec 9, 2003)

I'm throwing my hat into the ring here as this is a great discussion you guys have going so far!









I just got the UP book yesterday and I am only on page 42, but so much of what AK is saying is making sense, to me anyway.

Without even realizing it DH and I were creating a praise junkie out of our DD (who is almost 4). And it was never with a manipulating intent at all, it was just well, we think of course she is great and wonderful







but everytime she did something we were always saying "hey great job!" or "I'm so proud of you, that was great!" etc etc. We genuinely mean it and there was no manipulating at all, it was never to reinforce a certain behaviour, it's just that we think our kids are awesome of course and we constantly told them so.







.

EXCEPT, that DD started looking for that praise in almost every little thing she did and DS was starting to do the same thing. When she started to draw, we were so excited that she was learning to draw and make "art" that we were always telling her "good job", but like IdentityCrisisMama mentioned, then we started getting 100's of pictures every week it seemed where she would just stroke her pen/pencil/crayon across the page in a split second and bring it to us expecting us to say "good job" and get the praise for it - she was getting nothing out of drawing, it wasn't for her enjoyment it was purely for DH and I and the praise she was getting as a result.







And it started spreading out to cleaning up toys, going to the potty, everything really. For example, I was never and never will be one to say "hey if you don't clean up you don't get xyz" I'm not a rewards/punishment/bribing type parent, it's just if she helped me clean up I would say, yep you guessed it







"Good job honey! Wow that was great, look at what a great job you did cleaning up!" Because in my mind, it was a good job and I honestly thought that by saying that we were saying the right thing, we weren't saying "good girl!" we were stating that we thought she did a great job, because she did. But, she wasn't perceiving it that way it seems because she was doing things then for me or DH and not because it is nice to have a clean space, or it made her feel good about herself to contribute to our family and our space. And then it got to if we didn't keep up that kind of over praising she starting to do even more, sometimes crazy stuff just to get our attention and praise. So it was just completely counter productive for us. Does that make sense?

And AK, also states, and this was key for me, that it is more important to realize how a child perceives what you are saying, then what you are actually saying. Perception is key. Kids may not necessarily remember what you did, or said, but they will remember how you made them feel.

So I knew I had to do something and I actually picked up the UP book yesterday because of the great reviews here (thanks ladies!







) and also as a way to help my very spirited DS who is 2 (but that is a whole other post







). But I had read quite a few posts about the book, and over praising, so before then I was starting to change my words a little bit and get away from constantly praising our kids, but still sharing in their joy and excitement.

So now if DD is jumping on something for example at the park and she is saying "Look at me jump Mamma!" I'm not saying "Good Job! You are a GREAT little jumper!" like I used to do. I still share in her excitement and enthusiasm, but I try and turn it around a little bit so she is recognizing her own excitement and happiness. I'll say "Hey! You are jumping! Are you having fun?







<_she says "ya! I'm having fun!"_> It sure looks like fun, can I come play too?!"







Or something along those lines.

When she helps me clean up, I say "Wow, doesn't it feel good to have a clean room to sent up our tent now?" (and I'll get an honest response from her, she'll tell me if she prefers the room messy with her toys all over, and that is fine with me too, but at least I am making her think about herself and how she feels about the situation







) or "I appreciate you helping me clean up! Thanks! Let's set up the tent now!"









If she draws me a picture and asks if I like it, I first ask her now if SHE likes it and ask her about it and get her talking about her picture etc etc. If she asks me if I am proud of her for something, again I ask her first if SHE is proud of herself and go from there. I'm not going to hesitate to tell her I am proud of her of course and if she has really worked at something and done a good job I will tell her, but I want her to start in a sense thinking of herself first and not me and others first, yk? I grew up constantly caring what people thought and doing things just to impress people and make them feel good, not myself and I don't want that for my kids. Yes I want them to care about other's feelings and wants, but not completely at the expense of themselves like I went through (and I am referring more to peer pressure type situations here than anything). I want my kids to have a strong sense of self and if DH and I are constantly praising them for every little thing without getting them to think in regards to how they themselves feel, then they aren't going to have that.

And I believe more than anything, children mimic what they see and a lot of their values come from that. For example, I just naturally clean up the toys most nights before we go to bed and I don't ask or tell my kids to help me, I just do it myself, mainly because it gets done so much faster, but I'm also not going to coerce or force them into it. But now, my DD, is all on her own starting to help me, or if it is a night where I am too darn tired to clean up she'll remind me we should clean up the toys for tomorrow (and again I am reminding myself not to say "GREAT JOB SWEEEEETIE!"), if she reminds me I say "ya, it is nicer when the room is clean in the morning isn't it?" and we clean up.







My DS, who is 2,has never been forced to say "I'm sorry" or say "please and thank you" but he says those things on his own because he's watched and heard his sister and DH and I say those things in normal situations without him being forced or made to feel like he had to say those things.

And interestingly enough my DD is starting to do more now for herself and others and for the good feelings it gives her and not me or anyone else. She helps me clean up now more than ever once I laid off the over praising thing and started getting her to think about her own feelings about it. She respects things more now that I have changed my language a little bit, but still show the enthusiasm etc.

One PP mentioned that they don't want to come across as sounding robotic when trying not to say "good job" and I struggled with that as well. So I just started reflecting back what I was seeing and being enthusiastic about it and asking the kids questions back and asking myself, when I caught myself almost saying "great job!" I ask myself quickly what do I think is great? What is s/he doing? and it helps. I try and make sure the first question or statement back to my kids is about their feelings and not mine, if I can. So now it's "How do you think the room looks?







" "That looks like fun! Are you having fun?" "Did you find your truck/book (etc)? You must be pretty happy you found it!" and like I said, instead of saying "good job" I'll try and say I appreciate something and thank you. And for the most part I try to act the way I want my kids to act because that is where they are going to learn the most (and yea, some days it is soooooooooo tough







). My catch all phrase for the first 3 years of my daughter's life and most of my son's was "GREAT/GOOD JOB!" that it was getting ridiculous saying that phrase all the time.

I think that if kids know that their parents are giving them geniune attention, interest and care in what they are doing, that is what matters most. More than anything children just want their parents interest, attention and to know that they care, and you can give that to them and give them a great sense of self worth without constantly over praising them all the time. I see a HUGE difference in my kids since I've stopped constantly praising them and really getting down to more of their level and showing a lot more interest in what they are doing instead of just automatically saying "great job!". And as a result they are much more interested in things more now and also how they themselves feel about certain things/situations and have a lot more respect now for our home (ie helping and cleaning up) since I've made it about them and that it is their space too and not about DH and I and our space.

And I do still catch myself automatically saying "good job", but at least now it's not all the freakin' time like it used to be!









Anyway, that is my huge rambly two cents here.







: Everyday I learn something new to help me be a better parent, every night it seems I go to bed thinking that I've finally got it all figured out only to get a swift reality check soon after. This is just what has been working for us and our family.


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## MammaKoz (Dec 9, 2003)

Quote:

The reason many of us LIKE hearing "good job" is because we grew up hearing it so much that we became accustomed to it and now are somewhat motivated by it.
I don't in all honesty have a problem with the catch phrase "good job", but I do think that sometimes it can go overboard, it was for me and DH anyways.









Someone telling me I did a good/great job doesn't really motivate me, it makes me feel good at the time, ya, but not really motivating. I'm more of a "feeling" type person though. If someone says "Hey, I really appreciated it when you did xyz for me, that was a huge help, thanks!" or "that was really cool how you did xyz, how did you do that anyways (kinda like a "tell me more" statement)?" etc etc. Now that will get you a zillion and one more brownie points from me than "good job"







It shows more interest and care in what I did then just a simple "hey, great job!".

My dad still says to me "Great job Laila" or "I'm so proud of you Laila". Well what the heck are you proud of? Ya know? It just sounds like an off the cuff comment that he is throwing out there and that is what I was doing with my kids.

Okay, I'm 31 and apparently I still have childhood issues







: but you guys get my point right?









I promise I will not ramble anymore like I did in my last post







:


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

FS,

I do kind of get the theory but this whole thing goes back to my observations the other day. What I saw was a child who was experiencing her caregiver sharing enthusiasm with her. The care giver was using the kind of language that a lot of us consider preferable but I *think* the child would have taken the same message regardless because that's what was really going on...the caregiver was sharing enthusiasm.

But I do see your point a little better from your examples.

After this conversation I think I'm going to spend a little extra effort in the next few weeks going a little deeper into the underlying feelings of my words.

For instance, if I say, "The windows are really clean." I'm going to look into whether I'm making a simple observation, whether I'm trying to highlight the results of my child's actions, or whether I'm just saying something because nothing feels weird.







On the contrary, if I say "Good job." (I don't usually say that but something along those lines) I'm going to look into whether I'm trying to reward her actions as a way to motivate her, whether I'm just commenting on a job well done and etc.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaKoz*
And AK, also states, and this was key for me, that it is more important to realize how a child perceives what you are saying, then what you are actually saying. Perception is key. Kids may not necessarily remember what you did, or said, but they will remember how you made them feel.

I think this is one of the best topics of the entire book! The thing is that, imo, it didn't get carried through the whole book. I'm curious to see what you think about this. Please let me know. I wish I owned the book so I could go back now that we've been talking about it so much.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaKoz*
So now if DD is jumping on something for example at the park and she is saying "Look at me jump Mamma!" I'm not saying "Good Job! You are a GREAT little jumper!" like I used to do. I still share in her excitement and enthusiasm, but I try and turn it around a little bit so she is recognizing her own excitement and happiness. I'll say "Hey! You are jumping! Are you having fun?







<_she says "ya! I'm having fun!"_> It sure looks like fun, can I come play too?!" :

I wonder though if it's possible to just change the language...which is kind of what I've been on from the beginning. I don't mean to say this won't work...I just kind of wonder if your child isn't just going to become a "share my enthusiasm and excitement" junky, which isn't such a bad thing. I'm just tempted to believe that this is already what she is...the language is just a little different. For instance, I have have a close friend and her daughter runs to her for the "Wow, what a beautiful picture." thing and mine runs to me for the, "Wow, you look like you really got into that painting." Do the kids really interpret this differently IF it's the same thing? If both parents are simply happy that their kids made a picture, love it and want to say something...isn't this what the child will remember?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaKoz*
I see a HUGE difference in my kids since I've stopped constantly praising them and really getting down to more of their level and showing a lot more interest in what they are doing instead of just automatically saying "great job!". And as a result they are much more interested in things more now and also how they themselves feel about certain things/situations and have a lot more respect now for our home (ie helping and cleaning up) since I've made it about them and that it is their space too and not about DH and I and our space.

So, what do you think of this? How do language and your change in feelings about some of this relate?


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## sphinxie (Feb 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MammaKoz*
I'm throwing my hat into the ring here as this is a great discussion you guys have going so far!









Thanks for that post. It's really interesting to read about non-praising (or less-praising







) in action in a meaningful way. It's becoming clearer to me. I knew what it was like to be a praise junkie (I still am) but didn't have a clear sense of what the alternative really was.


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## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Okay, first of all, I have not read this book, so I'm probably not qualified to talk about this at all. From y'all's descriptions of it I think I agree with some aspects of the no-praise thing, but not really the underlying philosophy. Because I *do* think that it's appropriate for us as parents to encourage certain behavior and discourage others, although of course this can be done gently without punishment or force. So I don't think it's inherently wrong to "judge" or "evaluate" our kids' behavior.

But I make a distinction between judging/evaluating behavior and judging/evaluating the person. So I would be more likely to say "You're bouncing so high!" than "you're such a good jumper!" because one is evaluating the action, while the other is evaluating the person. I do think that the ubiquitious "good boy/good girl" praise is inappropriate. I would never tell my kids that *they* are good or bad, but I do think that kids look to us to evaluate their behavior and teach them about the world and what's appropriate.


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## MammaKoz (Dec 9, 2003)

Quote:



Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*

I wonder though if it's possible to just change the language...which is kind of what I've been on from the beginning. I don't mean to say this won't work...I just kind of wonder if your child isn't just going to become a "share my enthusiasm and excitement" junky, which isn't such a bad thing. I'm just tempted to believe that this is already what she is...the language is just a little different.


I totally see your point and agree with you there.









I guess either way whether I am saying "Hey! Great job!" or saying "Ya, you ARE jumping it looks like you are having fun, are you having fun?" etc she is getting positive reinforcement from me. And it is only natural for children at that age (3 y/o) to be looking for some kind of positive feedback from their parents. I guess what I am trying to do is to also get her to think at the same time about what SHE is enjoying or getting out of it too and not just what me or DH think about it, yk? So if I ask for example, "Are you having fun sweetie?" I'm also hoping that she'll remember that "ya I had fun doing that", instead of just "Mamma thinks I'm great when I jump at the park." or "if I jump it will make Mamma think I'm great" or feeling that my love for her will be even more just because she is great at jumping etc and that's all.

Does that make sense, it's getting late here and my head is starting to spin a bit









For me, like I mentioned, "Great job" etc was becoming such an automatic response, so for *us* in our house we had to change it a little bit, the wording that is. The same enthusiastic tone is still there, just the wording is different.

Quote:



Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*

Quote:



Originally Posted by *MammaKoz*

_Originally Posted by MammaKoz
"I see a HUGE difference in my kids since I've stopped constantly praising them and really getting down to more of their level and showing a lot more interest in what they are doing instead of just automatically saying "great job!". And as a result they are much more interested in things more now and also how they themselves feel about certain things/situations and have a lot more respect now for our home (ie helping and cleaning up) since I've made it about them and that it is their space too and not about DH and I and our space."_

So, what do you think of this? How do language and your change in feelings about some of this relate?




It's subtle really but huge all at the same time. Before for example, Maria used to say "Mamma look at me I'm cleaning up the toys!" and she would be putting literally one block in the basket and that was it. Put one little block or toy in the basket and then she would wait for the response from us. She wasn't cleaning up because she wanted a clearer space to do something else, she was purely looking for that praise from me or DH, or as I suspect more love from us.

Now she just lately seems to be doing it on her own and not looking to us for reinforcement and doing it often without our suggestion, so I am *hoping* that she isn't thinking anymore that we love her even more when she cleans up. That, as the book is titled Unconditional Parenting, our love for her and DS is unconditional and not tied to any behavioural strings, yk? We love her the same whether she cleans the room or not, but I don't think before with our constant praise, she was perceiving it that way.









If I suggest we bring the tent up, then she is the one that will sometimes mention "well maybe we should clean up the toys first." And maybe it's because of me not just saying "good job!", or maybe not? I'm not too sure, it's just coinciding at the same time I kinda switched the language up, so I'm assuming it is. I mean before I would be saying that the entire time they were helping me clean up, I would seriously go on and on about what a great job they were doing, but that was it. I didn't mention the end result - how nice it is to have a clean room for example or that because the toys are put away we have room to set up the tent if they want to, or do whatever it is they want to do when the toys are cleaned up.

Now the focus is different if we are cleaning up, I'm reminding myself to talk about how nice it is to have a clean space, be organized, how it is easier to find toys etc, and so I suspect since that is what I am focusing on, that is what she is focusing on as well, but at least she isn't soley focused on me or DH saying constantly what a great job she is doing like she was before. She is starting to realize there is more than one reason to clean up the room.









It could be total mimicking, I dunno, some of it probably is, but she seems to be getting a great sense of accomplishment on her own without me reinforcing it. I still say "hey, thanks so much for helping me! I really appreciate that, look at how nice the room looks now, we're a great team aren't we?" etc so there is still positive reinforcement now, but I'm trying to lean it more towards contributing to her own environment as opposed to just what I feel about her and what she did. And Matty, well what do I say there







he is 2 and all the glorious things that a two year old spirited little boy is







, so it's really hit and miss with him, but he is just starting to jump in now and help on his own because he sees us doing it and not because we are falling all over ourselves praising him or doing something soley because he saw us falling all over ourselves praising Maria.

I guess the huge difference, especially with Maria is that she just seems more aware, of her space/enviroment, why she is doing things etc. She wasn't like that before, it was almost always about what others thought of her and had nothing to do with how she felt about it personally, it seemed to be about how someone else could make her feel.

And I feel like I am on the right track when tonight, we're at the park and there was another little girl there about 5 or 6 and they were playing great together and the other little girl was hanging off the monkey bars saying "Hey Maria look at me!" and before Maria no doubt would have said "good job!" but I had to laugh because she watched her for a second and said "Ya you look like you ARE having fun on the monkey bars! Are you having fun? Can I play too?"







:

But, I think something, even if it is just something little, must be clicking because while I realize Maria was basically just repeating what I say to her now, it wasn't automatic. I watched Maria think for a second about what she was seeing and what the other child was experiencing, where as before she just would have happily blurted out "GREAT JOB!" without thinking at all and gone on playing. Instead of just stating something ("great job!") she engaged back in the moment with the other child. That is new for her too.

So ya, there is some serious mimicking going on







, but that is a lot of the way kids learn right? If a foundation is being laid for my kids through some mimicking of me and DH by watching, feeling for themselves and others and seeing what is going on before automatically responding or looking for an automatic response from others, well that is okay for now. As the kids get older, DH and I can kinda build on it in age appropriate ways.








Man it's late and I tend to ramble even more so when it is late, but I guess the main point I am trying to make is that yes ICM, you are right the language is different but most likely my kids perception is the same, no matter what we say.







And, even though in a round about way there is positive reinforcement from me or DH, we are also trying to get our kids to give *themselves* positive reinforcement also and get them to value how they themselves feel at the same time instead of always seeking that out from others and what other people feel about them.









Does any of that make sense, 'cause I am so tired tonight.









And this whole topic fascinates me because I've been having all these UP lightbulb moments the past month or so.







I'll keep you posted on the book!


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Wow, there have been some really interesting threads about language lately! I'm loving this, because it has me really thinking about my own language and intent-and doing so has lead to more clarity for myself, in little bits here and there.

Random thoughts:

I think that there's nothing wrong with sharing enthusiasm/joy/other emotions. People are interdependent, parenting is a relationship. People have a need/desire to share their feelings/experiences with each other. So when we communicate our honest feelings/experience, without intent to manipulate and while taking responsibility for our own feelings, I think there is the potential for connection. And I think seeing/hearing us communicate openly and honestly is at least in part how our kids learn to express themselves openly and honestly. So if my child wants to share her picture with me, to share her enthusiasm about it with me, I see no problem sharing my enjoyment of her picture with her. I think that's different from praising/evaluating her picture. KWIM? Saying "I really enjoyed the taste of that meal, I would enjoy it if you made it again sometime" or "I appreciate your cooking this meal, I really enjoyed it" is different from evaluating it by saying "good job cooking" or "what a good meal." Is it a subtle difference? Maybe. Maybe it's not so subtle when experienced as opposed to written about.

I think praise becomes a problem when the intent is to manipulate behavior, or when it is experienced as an attempt to manipulate behavior. Maybe it's problematic when it's unclear what the meaning and intent is.

The phrase "good job cleaning the window", it seems to me, could mean a number of things or the intent behind that phrase could be one of many. I could be saying it in the hope that doing so will get you to clean them more often. It could mean "I appreciate how helpful your cleaning the window was to me." It could mean "wow, you got it cleaner than I expected you could." It could mean "The window meets my standard of clean." I could say it with the intent of providing encouragement-meaning "you can do it yourself, you did it, you can do it again, what an accomplishment." I think the problem with such a phrase ("good job....") is it's potential meanings/intents, which are not always obvious to the recipient of such a comment. Each person interprets the statements of others through the lens of their own perceptions, beliefs, feelings, etc. I think this is why the choice of words matters-to help us communicate clearly. And awareness of our intent helps us choose words that match our intent, helping us to communicate clearly.


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## RootBeerFloat (Nov 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
I think praise becomes a problem when the intent is to manipulate behavior, or when it is experienced as an attempt to manipulate behavior. Maybe it's problematic when it's unclear what the meaning and intent is.

Each person interprets the statements of others through the lens of their own perceptions, beliefs, feelings, etc. I think this is why the choice of words matters-to help us communicate clearly. And awareness of our intent helps us choose words that match our intent, helping us to communicate clearly.









As usual, sledg, I appreciate your insight. I agree with what you've said above, that the intent behind the words is so very, very important. For me, it is a practice to be mindful about what I'm saying and why I'm saying it. I find that often my intent is manipulative, even if I didn't initially conceive of it that way.


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## mbravebird (May 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
I do kind of get the theory but this whole thing goes back to my observations the other day. What I saw was a child who was experiencing her caregiver sharing enthusiasm with her. The care giver was using the kind of language that a lot of us consider preferable but I *think* the child would have taken the same message regardless

They've done studies with praise that show that kids do understand the language differently. Reflecting a child's enthusiasm for how high they are jumping is different than informing a child that "high" is "good". One focuses on the child's experience, the other on the parent's standards. The studies found the same things that MammaKoz is finding: that kids are less motivated to do an activity and enjoy the activity less when the results of the activity are evaluated, even if the evaluation is positive. Sharing enthusiasm or meeting a child's emotion pushes very different buttons than evaluation does. Once an activity is evaluated, once an "achievement" has been accomplished, the pressure to meet the same level of accomplishment next time increases, and the focus is taken off the process and is put on the end result instead. At least, that's the way kids take it. Discovery and enjoyment decreases.

I know that's how I take it. As recently as graduate school, I struggled with becoming tongue-tied in front of teachers who had praised something I was good at when I tried to repeat the activity. And the crazy thing was, it was something I WAS good at, that I was personally already proud of! I would get seized by anxiety when having to repeat it in front of this particular teacher, and never really reached my prior level of "achievement". I just ended up felt bad about myself for not being able to live up to his expectations as well as I knew I could. I also have memories of teaching relationships in graduate school where I felt extremely appreciated and recognized, but also felt certain that that recognition and appreciation extended _beyond_ my accomplishments. It was OK to fail with those teachers; in fact, I didn't think of it as failure, but simply another chance to interact closely with a person I really enjoyed and respected.

I don't think that a parent sharing an opinion is taboo, and I don't think praise is the end of the world, I just think that that's not usually what a child needs _first_. I think it needs to be solidly in perspective for the child and the parent that the process is much more important than the product. In that context, anyone's opinion becomes just an element of the picture, rather than the focus. And relationship, not achievement, becomes the new focus.

I would have no trouble sharing just as much enjoyment with a child over their tiny, low bounces as I would over their high bounces. I think the key is noticing how the child is feeling about the bouncing. If the kid in the original example was excited about by the perspective that high bouncing gives them, the flutters in their stomach when they go particularly high, the wind making their hair fly at the top of the jump, and the strength in their legs that makes them feel powerful, then knowing that their parent understands some of the feelings they are having is much more important and supportive than knowing that their parent thinks well of their achievement.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
I have have a close friend and her daughter runs to her for the "Wow, what a beautiful picture." thing and mine runs to me for the, "Wow, you look like you really got into that painting." Do the kids really interpret this differently IF it's the same thing?

And I think that extends to the example with your daughter. Your daughter is coming back to you for connection and understanding, not for your approval. Kids will come back for both, but the first is much more important.

I try not to get paranoid about the language, but I do think it matters and is worth the effort...


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
Each person interprets the statements of others through the lens of their own perceptions, beliefs, feelings, etc. I think this is why the choice of words matters-to help us communicate clearly. And awareness of our intent helps us choose words that match our intent, helping us to communicate clearly.











I think this is what I need to work on. For instance, a friend of mine uses a phrase that works well for her family and it sounds nice. I was thinking of borrowing it but I think I need to first think about my intent.


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## richella (Nov 30, 2004)

Well, these ideas are interesting, but I still think the key is not to think a lot and figure out what's the best thing to say, but to be present in the moment, and to speak the truth. Or not speak, like last night when we were watching Godspell and dd loved the music and dancing and started dancing herself. Nobody said "Good job!" or "I like the way you dance!" or "You sure are dancing," we just got up and danced with her. OMG I've become a Jesus freak! Seriously, regardless of who I am talking to I really do try to say what is true, to the moment, and myself. If I want dd to do something, I say "I want you to do this," or "I don't want you to play with that right now." Often I find I just want to inspire her to take joy in what she does. I haven't found words that do that, but sometimes joining the activity with her helps. Speaking the truth is challenging, and people think you're weird for it, but I think that in itself is one of the important things I want to teach dd.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *richella*
Well, these ideas are interesting, but I still think the key is not to think a lot and figure out what's the best thing to say, but to be present in the moment, and to speak the truth. Or not speak, like last night when we were watching Godspell and dd loved the music and dancing and started dancing herself. Nobody said "Good job!" or "I like the way you dance!" or "You sure are dancing," we just got up and danced with her. OMG I've become a Jesus freak! Seriously, regardless of who I am talking to I really do try to say what is true, to the moment, and myself. If I want dd to do something, I say "I want you to do this," or "I don't want you to play with that right now." Often I find I just want to inspire her to take joy in what she does. I haven't found words that do that, but sometimes joining the activity with her helps. Speaking the truth is challenging, and people think you're weird for it, but I think that in itself is one of the important things I want to teach dd.

Yes. The whole point is to not think a lot about it. But many of us have been "programmed" to do the praise thing from our parents, teachers, mainstream culture, etc.... so it does take some self-examination and adjustment time to change our words. Just like it takes time and thought to change any other human interaction. It is second nature to me and I do ot overthink every interaction but I see why it does take thought for people new to a less-praise parenting relationship.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *richella*
Well, these ideas are interesting, but I still think the key is not to think a lot and figure out what's the best thing to say, but to be present in the moment, and to speak the truth.

Seriously, regardless of who I am talking to I really do try to say what is true, to the moment, and myself.

I agree that it is vital to be present in the moment and to speak honestly, openly and with compassion. And to listen openly and with compassion.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yooper*
But many of us have been "programmed" to do the praise thing from our parents, teachers, mainstream culture, etc.... so it does take some self-examination and adjustment time to change our words. Just like it takes time and thought to change any other human interaction.

I agree with this also. It's amazing how many of us really don't have very many words to describe our feelings and needs, and how many of us aren't very aware of both our feelings and needs. Our culture simply doesn't pay all that much attention to those things. And really, in order to communicate effectively with others we need that awareness and those words. Sometimes it really does take some thought/reflection to figure out how to best express our true feelings and needs-I think that it's good to take the time to do that. But I think that's different from the kind of overthinking/overanalyzing that prevents us from being present in the moment.

And I agree with the idea of not overthinking, in the sense that what's really necessary is awareness of what's happening. Not so much analysis of whether this is right or wrong, or what will happen years from now if I say this or do that-that can really bog you down and keep you from being able to be present in the moment. Awareness of what's happening within oneself, of what's happening around oneself, the ability/skills to communicate openly, honestly and compassionately about what's happening, and the willingness and ability to listen-I think that's what's key.


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## annarosa (Aug 30, 2004)

this is an interesting thread
I must admit I find the whole 'non praise' thing very difficult to get my head around even though I can kind of see the sense and feeling behind the idea

with jumping on her trampoline if I want to say something to dd about it I tend to say something like 'hi Miss Bouncy" or 'OK jumper, look at you" or something like that - not sure if this is really descriptive but I just want her to know that I see what she is doing and that I see that she really likes it ........


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## macleand (Jun 7, 2006)

"putting the trash in the trash can makes things tidy" is a fact not a judgement. By saying "it's good to be tidy is a judgement."

But here's my example. I am a stay at home mom of a 2.5 year old. I only have a babysitter in the summers when my in-laws are in town.

I use descriptions of what my toddler is doing... sometimes. Sometimes I just put something in the trash right along side her and don't say anything. Kids learn from modeling behavior. When kids play together, they don't praise themselves (unless that is what they know from home)... they just parallel play... and learn.

BUT when my in-laws come home so does the praise... to the max degree. Suddenly my toddler is looking at me for praise after everything she does. She gets frustrated when she can't "do it right" and often stops trying because of it. I've talked about it to them a million times and they just "yes" me to death.

Now they are starting the dreaded "good girl". And when I tell her not to do something or that we have to do something she cries that "she's a good girl".

Judgement hits the heart of self esteem. It may seem that you are giving good instruction to promote good behaviors but all it is doing is creating yet another soul that needs outside validation in order to feel good. A needy people pleaser. These are the children that can easily be taken advantage of by child molesters and child exploiters. I think I read that one out of four girls is molested by age 12. That's just girls!

My little one was playing with the phone and started pulling on the cord the other day.

My inlaws would have told her "don't do that. Be a good girl and don't play with the phone like that."

I told her to "don't pull cord. You can play with the buttons but don't pull the cord."

My toddler hit the trash barrell knocking it over.

I said. "don't knock the trash barrel over."

She looked at me and yelled "No!"

I sat down in front of her beneath her eye level and said, "You want to pull the cord? You want to pull the cord?"

She said "yes."

I said "but mommy said no pull cord. Play with buttons but no pull cord."

She said "ok mommy".

I said. "you were angry at mommy because I said no pull cord?"

She said "yes".

I said "you were angry so you knocked over the trash?"

She said "yes".

I said "Next time tell mommy that your angry. No knock over the trash."

She said. "Ok mommy. I'm sorry. I push buttons."

And then after a hug she went along her happy way.

I learned that technique from the Happiest Toddler on the Block. It doesn't feel fake. It feels like I'm talking with my toddler and not at her. And it feels like I'm explaining to her what feelings are and how they make us feel and what to do with them. It's the way I wish my mother talked to me!


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