# Ear Piercing: Please debate!



## kimberlylibby (Dec 28, 2003)

I want to hear it all.

Debate away!!

I think there are so many other ways a girl can look feminine that the "it makes her look girly" excuse for putting holes in your child's body truly makes me want to retch.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

I think that if you are to teach your daughter respect for her body, then how can you violate that by piercing her ears before she is capable of making that important decision on her own. It is violating to her to take this matter in your own hands.


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## peacefulmom (Jul 20, 2002)

ok when I was younger about 12 years ago I worked at one of those jewlry places at the mall piercing ears...I refused to do babies...I saw them done and the beautifullittle faces went from peaceful and trusting to horrifies and in pain FOR NO REASON AT ALL...and I vowed never to do that to my own babe....I was a body piercier in a tattoo place within the last 5 years and when parents would bring in their babes I would state I will not help you with that







...well my rant is over but I think this is a neat thread to read....


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

I am anti.

I am Latina. I had this done to me as a baby. My dad was in the jewelry business. I had diamond earrings at a young, young age.

Anyhoo, the big problem I have with it... is the STUPID HOLE moved closer to my face as I grew up. So it wasn't center. So I had to have a new hole put in in my 20s. So now i have two holes in my ear lobes.

I am not a big fan of having twenty holes up my ear (like other people - OK for them, just not my thing) so this really irritated me.

That's it. No big trauma (none that I can remember) just an irritating side effect.

Would I do it to my daughter? Heck no. Babies are beautiful as is and don't "need" jewelry.

*Older girl - teen request*
Hmmm, I don't know how I would handle that. I don't see a reason to say no if she is a teenager. If she is 6, yes, I would say no for the reason above.


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## EmeraldStar8 (Nov 12, 2002)

I'm against for the following reasons:

Piercing guns *cannot* be steralized so they carry a high risk of spreading hipatitis and other infections and also because the jewellery is blunt rejection, infection, swelling, scarring, pain, improper placement, and other problems.


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Ditto EmeraldStar8! When any of my children get old enough to want their ears pierced, and I think they are old enough to make that decision and to be responsible for it I'll only let them do so at a Piercer's with a needle and all the proper sterilization techniques. But I couldn't possibly think of a piercer anywhere near here that would pierce a child's ear, even if they were 12.. or 14... or whatnot... Do any professional piercers do ear piercings on minors with parental permission?


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## alsoSarah (Apr 29, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by StarMama_
*But I couldn't possibly think of a piercer anywhere near here that would pierce a child's ear, even if they were 12.. or 14... or whatnot... Do any professional piercers do ear piercings on minors with parental permission?*

I've never met a body piercer who would meet my standards who would pierce a younger child.
But older children, yes, sometimes. A piercing can be a very appropriate rite of passage (and we need more rites of passage in this country, IMO) to mark life experiences or transitions (eg: a girl's first period, etc.).

Often, a piercer will agree to pierce a minor with parental consent if he/she already knows the parent in question, whether through an ongoing friendship, or as a frequent-flier client to the shop, or whatever..... even if their *official* policy states otherwise. It's a judgement call.

There was a thread where a mama was basically asking, "Well, if body piercers are so adamant that people only get pierced by knowledgeable, professional piercers, yadda, yadda..... why won't they pierce little kids?"

In my experience, most body mod pros worth their salt are against piercing young children, and are hoping that the parents will reconsider the issue altogether, rather than settle for having it done in unsafe circumstances.

peace,
alsoSarah


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

alsoSarah, what do you mean by:

Quote:

I've never met a body piercer who would meet my standards who would pierce a younger child.
I'm just curious of what standards you speak of... I think from what you said afterwards perhaps something to do with the piercer acting appropriately for the rite of the piercing? Not sure, and I'm just curious (also would be good to know if I'm missing thinking of all angles too)


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## Joi (Sep 24, 2002)

I am anti mainly because it is not my body. I do not believe that I have the right to do that to her.


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## alsoSarah (Apr 29, 2002)

Exactly, angstmommy.

Lisa, while I think that the piercer's, erm, "tableside manner" is important (and would be especially so if one *were* to pierce small children), I was thinking more about the mundane stuff when I posted.









I was just thinking of standards re: jewelry materials and quality of constuction, prevention of cross-contamination, autoclaving (and spore testing), tissue-friendly aftercare instuctions, availability for follow-up consultation, etc.

Every studio that I'm familiar with that has all of their ducks in a row on these points also frowns upon poking holes in people too young to give true consent, not to mention the possible change in jewelry placement as the child grows.
















peace,
alsoSarah


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## witchbaby (Apr 17, 2003)

i keep to the "not my body, not my choice" in regards to purely cosmetic procedures like this (i would include circing in this catergory).
dd has dimples in her ears that look like little peircing holes which strikes me as funny.








ot: dd is also only 8 weeks old so she's rockin' that androgenous look. my mil is always babbling about how she "can tell she's a girl even in blue because she's so feminine." i don't care if she's mistaken for a boy. if some asks how old HE is, i just say "she's 8 weeks."
wooo to breaking gender stereotypes!


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

I think its horrible! Why in the world would you put your child through UNNECESSARY pain and mutilate their little body just so you won't have anyone say oh is it a boy or a girl. How totally shallow is that? Put a freakin dress on her for crying out loud! Stick a bow in her hair. There are many ways to make her look like a girl without piercing her ears. I do think its akin to circumcision. You are inflecting an unnecessary pain and making an unneccesary change to their body.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

I think it's really cruel and unecessary to pierce an infant's ears. The question wouldn't come up if it was a boy, so why do it to a girl, kwim? Boys have ears too, and we don't think about poking holes in their ears.

I'd also be really concerned about taking care of earrings in a child who's too young to even ask for them. The absolute earliest I can see piercing a child's ears is potty training (after they've learned to clean and care for their bodies). A child who has learned that they're not supposed to put stickers into their vaginas, that they have to wipe their behinds when they poop and have to wash their hands when they use the bathroom is, in my estimation, mature enough to take care of a pair of earrings if they so desire. I'd also want them to have experience keeping a collection of small things out of the hands of younger siblings, perhaps demonstrated by a penny collection. I'd hate to wake up from a nap and find, say, a 6 month old trying to swallow her 2 year old sister's earring.









Oh, and then there's the allergy factor. Nickel allergies run in my family. And the "I want to look like mom" deal; I don't wear earrings (I don't wear any jewelry because of the aforementioned nickel allergy). So maybe it won't even come up. Who knows?


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## Katambra (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

I think it's really cruel and unecessary to pierce an infant's ears. The question wouldn't come up if it was a boy, so why do it to a girl, kwim? Boys have ears too, and we don't think about poking holes in their ears.
I used to be a children's photographer. It was not at all uncommon to see a baby boy with a pierced ear.

I am anti for all the above stated reasons.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Well, flame me away, flame me away. My oldest DD ears are periced. It's kind of a strange tradition in out family. Mine were peirced when I was a few montsh old, got my second holes when I was 6 and my third at 12. As have all my cousins. SO I have three, my mother has four, my sister has three, so does my aunt. As do teh other women in our family. Now that I'm older I only wear my first holes, sometimes the second also.

Now the weird part. My youngest DD's ears are NOT peirced. I don't know I guess I got to the second baby girl and thought about it. "why am I doing this again?" I guess that's how people end up with one circumsised son and one not. Somewhere in between you stop and think about it. Now I would like to say that it's not that seriuos to me. If my oldest DD doesn't want holes in her ears then she just takes the earrings out so I'm not fretting over it just decided not to do it the second time.
Also alot of times it's about something more than just "looking like a girl". I'm going to ask my grandmother the story behind the ear peircing in our family so I'll get it right. Of course my mother's a bit peeved that mare's ears aren't peirced but I'm not fretting over that either.


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## jannan (Oct 30, 2002)

I'm pro-piercing girls ears. they should be pierced. they are little girls. dd ears were pierced at 2 months. she had the same earrings in her ears since two months. i think it is cool


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## lauraess (Mar 8, 2002)

*

_temporary post deletion pending contact with author_


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

.


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## Poetmama (May 30, 2002)

So this isn't really a debate. If it was, I doubt we would be hearing a "Shame on you" to someone who has posted her own opinion. I hate these paticular "debates" because they end up being more of "we're right and here is why you are wrong and cruel and a bad mom, ect. ect.". I doubt that anyone's minds will be changed by this thread. Those of us that pierce don't see it the same way those of you who don't pierce. My opinion on why I pierced my daughters ears won't change the mind of someone who is anti-piercing. I'd like to ask the OP why she even wants to debate this. Do you think you might change your mind? What good comes of seperating moms into catagories? We already have it tough IRL where most of us are swimming against the "main"stream....


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## PrinceE&LsMom (Feb 4, 2003)

I was startled the first time I went to Mexico and saw that ALL baby girls have their ears pierced right away! I met my niece for the first time (in Mexico) when she was 2 months old and her ears were double pierced! It is just not common to see babies here with earrings. I don't have any daughters but I would definately wait till they showed an interest in it and were closer to their teenage years. My personal opinion is that it looks awful on a tiny innocent baby.


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## lauraess (Mar 8, 2002)

Poetmama: Why, you do have a point. I guess im ignorant to the fact that a debate is about facts mostly, sometimes opinion and should not involve Flaming as it does separate us. but, then again some of do believe our opinions to be facts or moreover, the evidence we see with our eyes and our hearts as a woman instinctively listening with what i call "Mama-mind"----
therefore, when I ask a question like" Did you not notice the look on your childs face?" and " Did the look say <What the h*&^?>
I should pointedly ask: Dear Mama, what did you think or feel of that look?????

Laura
so, JANAN: any reply in this debate????


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## Poetmama (May 30, 2002)

lauraess: Thank you for understanding the point I was trying to make.


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## jannan (Oct 30, 2002)

thank you poet mama. dd is of nicaraguan descent and i 'm not going to make her the only girl cousin in a family of many without pierced ears. i stated my beliefs and now i'm cold hearted. for cryin' out loud. i'm beginning to see this as an anglo issue. like i can mothers saying threw the board "what the hell is wrong with those latina mothers that they would mutilate their daughters ears''!!!!!!!!????????????? and it is just a tiny hole. if she wants them to close when she is older ,she can.

we make other decisions for our daughters. how is this one different?

You guys are reading too much into to this? Is it your business if i choose to pierce my daughters ears? will i be kicked off the board?

I think you guys are acting really elitist.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

I will admit my comment on shame on you was over the top...sorry to all that I irritated. I will however reitterate my comment on respect. I think that piercing a child's ears sends a message that it is okay to hand the power of decision making about one's body to somebody else. It is the first of many body decisions that, unless resisited, a women hands over to someone else to make for her. I again will state that I think it is disempowering to do this to your child.

Jannan.....There are all types of women here... I don't think I am being eliltist and I don't think you will be "kicked off the boards". You choose to pierce your dd and I do not. We are at different ends of the spectrum with this issue, I do not think you are a bad mom for your decision to pierce. I do ask of you to really think of two things however, the unneeded pain you caused your dd in the pursuit of vanity and the disempowering message you have now sent her. If you are okay with these two things then you have made the correct decision for yourself, if you have to rationalize or justify your decision then I guess you do.


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## jannan (Oct 30, 2002)

whatever................and we know what junie B. jones says about that word. if not asked your unpierced first grader.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by jannan_
*whatever................and we know what junie B. jones says about that word. if not asked your unpierced first grader.*








: Please explain what you mean? Are you completely disregarding all I said with a Whatever? If you are then so be it, I really was trying to see if you wanted an actual discussion regarding your desision. I am curious how you came to the desision to pierce and whether or not anything that I asked you to consider you actually did. I am not trying to be a pest to you and I mean no disrespect to you as a person, I am more curious as to your motivation.


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## Clarity (Nov 19, 2001)

Latina are by far not the only group that pierces babies ears routinely. And I'm against it whoever they are, including the non-Latina piercers in my own family. A girl is a girl whether her ears are intact or not, I don't like sending the signal to her or others that her external objects are what expresses her femininity. My ears are pierced, but I chose to do it myself. I would consider it when she is old enough, in my opinion to truly consent and desire it.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

This thread is being temporarily closed pending editing for violations of the User Agreement.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I have now re-opened this thread.

I would ask everybody to please respect the rules of the User Agreement, which you all agreed to when you signed on here, not to attack members in your post.

If you have an opinion that runs strongly against that stated by another member, please post your opinion to the general audience in terms that do not attack specific members or criticize them for merely holding a contrary opinion.

We can have strongly differing opinions, but still express them respectfully.

Thank you.

_Lauraess your PM box is full. Please PM me when it's empty._


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## mommy2twinboys (Sep 4, 2003)

I am very anti ear piercing little girls ears. I just don't like the way it looks in babies and young children. If I had a daughter I would want her to make the decision whether to have them pierced herself. I think when you pierce a baby's ear it makes them look like they are tring to be grown up to fast.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

I just don`t get it.

Why is it ok to cause pain to a baby because "its tradition" or "she needs to look like a girl" or any other reason?

Would anyone here pierce their daugthers tounge?

Their nose?

Their bellybutton?

If not: Why is that different?


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

crunchy tamara~~
Well , this may be waaaay out there but I'm guessing taht most of you mothers that are dead set agaist ear peircing also don't vax right? Adn I noticed that most of you have boys so I'm guessing they aren't circ" right? I hope not otherwise you aer inflicting pain and that's not right or at least that's your theory, right?Also are your own ears peirced? How you told your mother's how you felt? Do you look down on those tribal traditions such as lip plates and such also? Just curious really.

And why not the bellybutton or the tongue or the nose. Come on let's not be extreme. Have you ever seen a 2 yr old with tehir tongue periced. I'm alomost 30 and wouldn't go there. But I'll answer your question in our case, because that's not teh tradition simply put.

I'm not really interested in a debate just thought I'd chime with my view on that matter and had a few questiosn to try to get a better picture of the masses. Like I said before I have 2 daughters one peirced one not. I won't be peircing my oldest anymore as I decided it's not somethin I want to keep up with but I'm not fretting over either decision and I don't look down on either side. Liek said before if she doesn't want the earrings she takes them out.


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## lauraess (Mar 8, 2002)

Im sorry if i did Attack anyone and do apologize to Jannan for Stating my opinon of her actions.
let me please say that like many others here and i imagine unlike moms/people who pierce thier baby's ears, I could never choose to make lite or overlook the offended childs cries or any reaction that would occur when being surprised in that way by a piercing. How would one do that???
Im guessing by turning off the mama alarm that screams in ones head instinctively when a child is hurt. when ones own hand is responsible for that pain and the turning off of the alarm is needed than people can rationalize and justify with tradition and such ~~~ all in all I liken it to DENIAL.

When my dd decides she wants her ears or other body part pierced i will tell her it hurts and when she's ready to deal with cleaning and the pain she can do it!!!!

Laura


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Just checking to see if I can still post(you never know).

Just a question what about thos ebabies who do not cry during shots or ear peircing, do you still feel for them. Just wondering since my DD did not cry. I vax also and she doesn't cry then either. True enough she looks atrted adn may look to start but she didn't and doens't cry. I always rediderct her rather quickly.


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## Clarity (Nov 19, 2001)

I don't think of it as the same at vax at all...since there is ostensibly a medical reason for vax, and a benefit to go along with the risk. (I don't vax, but I see that many people would feel that the medical benefit is worthwhile, and I support thier right to informed consent.) It's also less dramatic than circ , which is more dangerous and interferes with the natural functions of the penis. It's just unnecessary and purely cosmetic. Some other cultures believe in facial scarring or tattooing...I wouldn't support that in children either. Frankly, I don't care whether it causes pain or not...it's a permanent change to their body they didn't consent to, that was not done for their medical benefit or to repair a disfigurement.

and ear piercing was not always a tradition either...it's gone in and out of fashion in western cultures...at one point not that long ago, "gypsies" (Rom or being stereotyped as such), actresses and other "fast women" were the only ones with pierced ears. Fashions come and go, so I try to evaluate traditions based on my values. Some I maintain, some I don't.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

No Clarity it wasn't a cultural tradition that I was adherring to it was a family one. I really don't keep up with changes of what's popular withthe times so I don't really care about stuff like that. When I had my first daughter I was tring to follow a "family" tradition but by the time the second came along I didn't really care to give into it.
And ear peircing is NOT permenant. I have the closed holes to prove it. I know it's kind of hard to understand, especially since I do have one peirced DD one not, I vaccinate but my son is NOT circumsied.
And among slave times periced ears were a way to show that you have established something for yourself and could afford such. So it wasn't always about "fast women" either. Not that that bothers me, just call me Lippy Lucy:LOL

What about a child who had somekind of cosmetic scar, like a deformed lip or something. WOudl you get it fixed even though it would be purely cosmetic?


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

I think my answer to that question would be this: would the child's quality of life improve, is the procedure to fix the problem noninvasive and painless for the child? I doubt many Doctors would do surgury without appropriate painkilling drugs, so the pain would be managed. I really cannot compare pierced ears with deformed lip....its like apples and oranges to me. They both are fruit but different. I doubt that any child would be ostrasized to the extent of a face deformation if they had unpierced ears.


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## Clarity (Nov 19, 2001)

I was really only referring to a narrow window of middle american (read white nonimmigrant) culture in the later 19th and early 20th century...do you remember how prevalent clip on earrings used to be (say through the 50's-60's?) piercing is the standard now, but was not for a very long time.

and I think you missed the "repair a disfigurement" line above. Fix a cleft lip or palate or fix crossed eyes? yes. Get a nose job for a normal nose or give a teenager bigger boobs? No. Get a large facial mole or birthmark removed? yes. I see a big difference.

And you can't always pierce easily through old scar lumps, and you never know whose scars will be more obvious...some people keloid or scar more. Plus accidents in childhood or in piercing (I know a lot or people with ripped or crooked holes, which are pretty obvious, and interfere with adult earring use.)

Indian and Middle eastern women apparently have a tradition of displaying portable wealth...a great cutural tradition. I just don't think babies need to be part of it until they're older.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Clarity_
*Indian and Middle eastern women apparently have a tradition of displaying portable wealth...a great cutural tradition. I just don't think babies need to be part of it until they're older.*

I believe this to be the basis behind my fanily's tradition. I have also since decided as you stated that babies don't need to be a part of it, hence one peirced DD and one not.


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

I don't believe in altering my children's bodies. That said, it could definitely depend on your cultural/tribal customs. I have no tribal custom to put holes in my body, cut off parts that we are born with, etc:LOL but decided to let my 2 girls make that decision on their own. My oldest really wanted earrings at age 6, and I took her to our Ped who does it in the office and let her. I chose to get 6 piercings (







: ) in high school, but was previously intact. Your body your choice I say!


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## jannan (Oct 30, 2002)

I wrote "whatever" because i don't feel it is something worth debating. why do other mothers on this board care so much? If my sister were to have a baby boy she would circumsize the baby(we are hypothetically speaking...........she wouldn't really) that would be her choice. while it is something that she choose, if i were to have a baby boy i would leave his body intact.

not so , when it comes to a baby girl. Piercing ears is welcoming her to feminity. girls are girls and they should look as such.

I'm not posting anymore on this subject. It has become a personal crusade for some of you.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Two points to argue.

One yes it IS permanent. I had mine done, I hate earrings and I haven't worn any for 7 years. But I have to little hole scars on my ears. I don't think they look very nice. Plus they periodically get infected for no reason.

Two I am trying not to laugh but you should pierce ears so they look like girls? How about a dress??? Or wait a little while until they have enough hair for a barette? you don't need to permanently alter their body to make them look like a girl.

Also jannan - You say that circumsizing is just a choice but to some of us (including me) we feel that circumcision is genital mutilation and is NOT the parents choice to make. Therefore we don't just say oh well its your choice when we feel it is abuse to the child. KWIM?


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## jannan (Oct 30, 2002)

then that is where you and i differ. if a mother wants to circumsize her son, she can, as it is allowed in this country last time i checked. i choose not to circumsize if i were to have a boy.

I really don't like dresses on girls. I myself find them uncomfortable.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Heavenly_
*Two points to argue.

One yes it IS permanent. I had mine done, I hate earrings and I haven't worn any for 7 years. But I have to little hole scars on my ears. I don't think they look very nice. Plus they periodically get infected for no reason.
KWIM?*
WEll perhaps we can agree that it depends on the person and their body(or in thsi case ears). My back hole is closed and it's as if it never existed. My sister also added another hole to her ear and changed her mind later. Aslo closed, also you can't tell teh differance. I know several people who decied later in life not to wera their earrings and they closed just fine no permenant scarring. Maybe it depends on who you go to or how you take care of it, I don't know my point is it's aparently NOT permentant on everyone. We have also NEVER had any kind of infection in regards to the peircing. So that argument doesn't really fly either. Like I said I think it depends on several factors on if you get a scar and have infections.


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## lauraess (Mar 8, 2002)

lets just carify shall we:
!- a piercing is putting a hole, in the body
2- the hole is not physically needed/ that is for health benefits
to the said person.
3-permanant? in some cases- some close on their own some
will not.
4- depending on the babies/childs sensitivity she will feel the
piercing to one degree or another.
5-depending on the degree of importance in looking "right" a
mother chooses to DO THIS TO the child- or not.
6- Mother feels better in knowing that her child looks like a girl,
7- Mother feels empathy for childs possible discomfort or bewilderment yet at the same time knows that this is the price we pay to be "girls"> WELCOME to FEMininity!!!!

Do I got that right?








Laura


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## mamaley (Mar 18, 2002)

this is widely practiced in some cultures, while in other cultures it isn't as common. it's kind of pointless to debate this when you have people of various cultures here at mdc--it's like debating--darn it, new mama brain is in full force and i can't think of a good example.
(if anyone has any idea of what i'm trying to say here and would like to fill in, go for it)


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## lauraess (Mar 8, 2002)

Mamaley, I know what you mean, but gosh, i DO like debating!
Laura


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## mamaley (Mar 18, 2002)

:LOL you sound like me with my husband!


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

qoute:
Do I got that right?

Yep, looks like you got some of it anything else? what is it your trying to debate? there is no factual evidence supporting ear peircing, it's usually done based on cultural traditions as already stated so there really isn't going to be anything but you say nay and I say nay type stuff. I think that if you just want to debate something it should be sometig that has supprting evidenae either for or against. Like cir'd, vaxes, babywearing, CIO that type of stuff. things like ear peircing can only get into "well what a stupid culture"type name calling.(no way suggesting that am mama here would say that(not saying they wouldn't either).


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## jannan (Oct 30, 2002)

i agree. you can't debate anything cultural. it is like debating circumsizing with a jewish mother who has circumsized her son. my dd is central american and baby girls there are pierced in the hospital by a dr. or midwife.

i think tendency to not piece is part of anglo cultural


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

ok- now I am confused. Are we talking about peircings in GENERAL or only for our children?

I chose to get my ears peirced when I was 10. I am allergic to many metals, something I learned slowly. I now only wear 18 K gold. BUt I LOVE wearing my earrings. Just like a necklace, they are a pretty adornment to me.

My children can make these decisions too. Since Goo and it looks like Moo are girls, they may choose this. I will let them explore both sides of the debate (health risks, religous issues, etc) before I will let them make the final decision. But I will not stop them.

A tongue peircing I might not allow. Why? Because you damage not just the tongue, but the teeth as well.

Now, this is my opinon. I don't think it is abuse to peirce a baby's ears, but I personally wouldn't do it. I would rather my child make that decision herself (or himself).

And before people get too upset about permenent damage, what about tatoos? I know many women here have them. Would you allow your child to have that form of mutlation or not?


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Foobar_
*Would you allow your child to have that form of mutlation or not?*
Tattooing?
No, not in a newborn or infant or not even a toddler:LOL

But seriously, in my opinion my dh, dd and I will discuss rationally to figure out an appropriate age where she is responsible enough to make these desisions for herself. Her body her decision, although I have to say that the thought of negotiating the appropriate age for this freedom makes me a tad nervous because by age 12 I was wanting to have this freedom. Hopefully my dd and I have a better understanding of each other.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Foobar_
*And before people get too upset about permenent damage, what about tatoos? I know many women here have them. Would you allow your child to have that form of mutlation or not?*
Oh for crying out loud. An ear piercing is NOT a mutilation. It's a stupid, little hole. Slicing off a girl's clitoris or a boy's foreskin IS a mutilation. Huge difference.

And Lauraless, to clarify, the hole is going in the EARLOBE. The most IMO innocent of places. (So my 40 yr old mommy-friend who decided to get her belly-button pierced "mutilated" herself???? Don't think so. Now if your piercing your nipples, that's another story entirely. According to some AP author - was it Tine Thenevin??? who was wondering whether this was a reflection of self-hatred/pain towards one's own body. Makes ya' think.)

I * really * don't get why all the anti's are so up in arms about ear piercing. It's so minor and trivial. (Wouldn't do it mine!) I think it's an idiotic thing to do, but I won't condemn a mother for it.


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## mamaley (Mar 18, 2002)

Quote:

it is like debating circumsizing with a jewish mother who has circumsized her son. my dd is central american and baby girls there are pierced in the hospital by a dr. or midwife.
thanks jannan, that's exactly the kind of example i was trying to think of. and now it seems so obvious that i wonder what i'm doing in college... :LOL

where's my coffee?


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## Ms.Doula (Apr 3, 2003)

I ABSOLUTELY agree w/ Poetmama's comment (way back on page 1 :LOL )

And I agree w/ the fact that you can't debate anything cultural. It is a no-win situation.

And I will proudly and bravely say......

I peirced my dd (Kayleigh) ears at 4 weeks old to the day.

And Riley... at 3 weeks to the day.

NEITHER of them cried AT ALL!!








Riley did grunt a bit after the second one.

They are both BEAUTIFUL with their little GOLD & DIAMONDS (I bought real stuff, so no nickel dermititis, infections, ect) And I take good care of their ears... haven't had a problem yet. They heal faster & easier when they are tiny.
And the backs screw on so there is no such chance at say... a 6 month old baby choking on her 2 yo sis's earring.....







: And as for me permanantly 'mutilating' their bodies..... um yeah I agree with the momma that said gimme a break... its a tiny hole. And it'll close if she chooses to let it. Although I DONT personally know of ANYONE that has ear peircings & as an adult, doesn't want them anymore.


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Tanibani_
*Now if your piercing your nipples, that's another story entirely. According to some AP author - was it Tine Thenevin??? who was wondering whether this was a reflection of self-hatred/pain towards one's own body. Makes ya' think*
Um, just have to say that piercing your own nipples is not some evil thing, or a sign of "self hatred". I don't exactly know why an attachment parenting author would think they knew a lot about piercings.

And Foobar, yes everyone is speaking of piercing a baby's ears. I will/would make my child wait til they are 18 to get tattooed.

I don't think ANY piercing or tattoo is a "mutilation" if its done BY CHOICE of the individual who owns that body.


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## whateverdidiwants (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Ms.Doula_
*I And it'll close if she chooses to let it. Although I DONT personally know of ANYONE that has ear peircings & as an adult, doesn't want them anymore.







*
Hi, my name is whateverdidiwants, nice to meet you.

My father had my ears pierced when I was 2. He was pushing me around the mall in a stroller while my mother was at the dentist and decided it should be done (he maintains that I asked for earrings, but seriously, why would you listen to a toddler?). My mom FLIPPED when she saw what he did, but didn't take them out.

I didn't ask for them, don't want them. I've left the holes empty for years in the hopes that they would close up and they haven't. Given the choice, I don't think I would have had it done myself. I'm not into girly things, I don't like jewelry, and frankly, don't even find it attractive.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

T

Quote:

_Originally posted by StarMama_
*Um, just have to say that piercing your own nipples is not some evil thing, or a sign of "self hatred". I don't exactly know why an attachment parenting author would think they knew a lot about piercings.*
Maybe it wasn't her. Maybe it was psychologist Alice ******







(which would make more sense). She wrote:

For Your Own Good: Hidden Cruelty in Childrearing and the Roots of Violence

Thou Shalt Not Be Aware: Society's Betrayal of the Child

I just thought it was interesting theory * worth * considering. I can understand somebody * wanting * to pierce their nose, bellybutton, or ears. I don't get wanting to get your nipples pierces (YEOW), female genitalia (WHY????????????) or tongue (forget HOW dumb it may look to me, who wants to taste metal in their mouth with food or not????) I believe Janet Jackson once said pierced nipples felt more pleasurable.









Quote:

_Originally posted by whateverdidiwants_
*I've left the holes empty for years in the hopes that they would close up and they haven't. Given the choice, I don't think I would have had it done myself.*








Same here. But on my list of things my parents did/did not do to be upset at them about, this doesn't make it for me. Too trivial.


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## alsoSarah (Apr 29, 2002)

Tanibani
The "sexual" piercings (nipples, tongue, genitalia) are to increase sensation, either for one's self or for one's partner.

(Oh, and if you can taste the jewelry in your tongue, it's probably not of a grade appropriate to wear in your body!)

peace,
alsoSarah


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## lauraess (Mar 8, 2002)

I must refer to the ops somewhat peading of " Debate away..
Im thinking that to those who choose not to debate it, since they are so adamant and confident in their choice can go away or read on and open their minds if possible or if choosing to.
I think after reading pretty much all the posts and coming from a place of Anti- piercing on a young child I will concur that this debate is coming down to one thing and that is:
Principle--- Changing a persons body- in ANY way that can not be changed back without extra measure ie: the bodies own special restoring abilities (closing the hole-which does require special bodily measures which could be used on more necasary bodily growing and functioning) IS in my OPINION MUTILation.
And whether your child feels it to a degree that she responds should not be a decisive factor in doing the procedure, when certainly one cannot know for certain how a child will respond. You may guess. but not definately know.
so, Tanibani, when i Mutilalate myself when my nose was done I CHOSE to do it. ME myself And I. Yes I did.
I know for one that at the age of three my dd upon realizing I had peirced her ears ( if I did) would be telling me incessantly since she is an individual of her own rights just how she does not want them and would most likely be holding it against me right now.







:

Thanks for the debate gals








laura


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## lauraess (Mar 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by jeca_
*qoute:
Do I got that right?

there is no factual evidence supporting ear peircing, it's usually done based on cultural traditions as already stated so there really isn't going to be anything but you say nay and I say nay type stuff. I think that if you just want to debate something it should be sometig that has supprting evidenae either for or against. Like cir'd, vaxes, babywearing, CIO that type of stuff.*
Oh , I see, Like the Scientific evidence, right? sorry but i CAN Use my goddess given and Mom acquired abilities to see all the facts without having to be told by some "professional"--- as in circing. vaxeds, babywearing, bfing, and that "stuff"
so, if YOU thnk this a stupid Debate than why debate the debate.
I for one consider the children of the world to be important and their issues to be mine and my grandchildrens.
maybe if someone actually wants to debate with an openmind in order to possibly help someone who is struggling with her cultures ideas and thoughts to be strenghtened in doing what SHE wants INSTEAD. Therefore This in not a pointless DEBATE.
laura


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## anothermama (Nov 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Foobar_
*?

Now, this is my opinon. I don't think it is abuse to peirce a baby's ears, but I personally wouldn't do it. I would rather my child make that decision herself (or himself).

And before people get too upset about permenent damage, what about tatoos? I know many women here have them. Would you allow your child to have that form of mutlation or not?*

I think you bring up a good point.

Why is is abuse to strike a child in the face and not to punch a hole in their ear?? Honestly, if they don't want EITHER, it's a grey line IMO.

Many CONSENTING adults engage in S&M...which includes hitting and spanking. Would I let my adult daughter do this? Sure...she's an adult...her choice. Would I hit my child or let someone else hit my child? No.

Many adults CHOSE to get inked up...myself included. Would I let my adult daughter? Sure....again, shes an adult...he choice. Would I ink a baby? No.

I think it is definitely bordering on abuse to pierce babies and it's at best disrespectful to pierce toddlers who may "ask" but have no real concept of what it is they are asking.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

I don't mind debating away. Everyone is entitled to their POV. What I mind is people ganging up (outright condemnation) on 1 person for choosing to get her DD's ears pierced. That's where my exasperation came from.


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Tanibani_
*
I just thought it was interesting theory * worth * considering. I can understand somebody * wanting * to pierce their nose, bellybutton, or ears. I don't get wanting to get your nipples pierces (YEOW), female genitalia (WHY????????????) or tongue (forget HOW dumb it may look to me, who wants to taste metal in their mouth with food or not????) I believe Janet Jackson once said pierced nipples felt more pleasurable.








*
As someone who has ALL of the piercings you question (as well as most of the piercings you can understand :LOL) I can certainly tell you that I did not do any of them as a sign of self hatred, or a desire for pain (I was VERY nervous getting them done, and if I could have had the piercings done without the whole "putting a needle through myself" I certainly would have!). I COMPLETELY understand that others scratch their heads and think "Why in the WORLD would you do that??" because yeah, to a lot of people its very weird, but to hear that people think its done as a sign of self hatred really bothers me. I completely respect you're view of "that's icky" or whatever, but don't automatically think anyone with said piercings has a serious head case or something.

I got the piercings for the same reasons that others get their ears pierced. Or wear a pretty dress. Or dye their hair. I think it beautifies my body. I enjoy having my piercings (and I miss having my nipple ring in now that I'm nursing... but the hole is still there). I know others disagree that piercings are not attractive, but frankly, there are people who won't like anything you do that makes you feel good about yourself.

And yeah, never tasted metal with the tounge piercing. In fact I've got an all plastic barbell in right now.

Sorry to take this thread so off topic! But I just had to reply


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

T

Quote:

_Originally posted by StarMama_
*I completely respect you're view of "that's icky" or whatever, but don't automatically think anyone with said piercings has a serious head case or something.*
To be clear, I am not assuming this. I, in fact, admire adults who want to pierce themselves all over (or tatoo themselves head to toe) because to me, it reflects a more open-minded perspective (and a lot of guts). I don't view (prejudge) you or anybody else doing this as "damaged" by any means.

I simply pointed out a theory someone else proposed that made me go _"hmmmm, * perhaps * there is something to that."_ But no, I don't think that MOST women who Do get themselves pierced here and there hate themselves. I don't know enough about psychology to go there. But.... I can't discount it totally either.... (it's a fascinating theory) and then again, one can't say the same about other "normal" things (beauty pageants....) right?

Quote:

_Originally posted by StarMama_
*And yeah, never tasted metal with the tounge piercing. In fact I've got an all plastic barbell in right now.*
Then you are tasting a plastic barbell all day. (Where is my yuck face?) OK, not tasting it, feeling it.







But if you don't mind, why should I?


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by anothermama_
*

I think it is definitely bordering on abuse to pierce babies and it's at best disrespectful to pierce toddlers who may "ask" but have no real concept of what it is they are asking.*
This continues to bother me.. why does everyone assume that no 2 or 3 year old could possibly understand what they're asking? Just because you weren't self aware at that age doesn't mean that other people aren't.







:

I don't see any reason to make a child wait until they're some arbitrary age. I'm not in favor of piercing infants (or anyone who can't ask) but if my 2 or 4 or 9 year old asks, I certainly won't say no based on some arbitrary number I have in my head. That doesn't make any more sense to me than piercing them when they're infants.


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## Red (Feb 6, 2002)

A wise woman who was not already involved in this conversation would walk away right now...ah heck, who am I trying to kid.

Just thought I'd give you my experiences with my kids. If you think I'm crazy or mean, please don't bother to tell me.

My oldest, then about 7 begged to get her ears pierced. I relented. She got one pierced, freaked and decided not to have the other done. For many years. Then at 19 she took her birthday money, from _me_ and got her tongue pierced. Kids!

My son was 5. Some little girl as at one of those mall kiosks getting her ears pierced. SHe ws screaming bloody murder. As a joke I said, "that sounds like fun, huh? Want to get your ears pierced?" His whole body froze, his face lit up and he said, "would you really let me? Really? Oh, Ma...." I felt like a creep for teasing him, but my daughters experince was still fresh in my mind and that girl was still crying... I tried to tak him out of it, but he was crushed. I'd _asked_ after all. So, he got one ear pierced. He begged to get the other done too, said it didn't hurt. I was afraid his dad would have a fit, though he didn't. (His grandfather freaked!)

Twinners come along. Now, this ain't funny! They're identical. I mean completely, except for quickly fading marks on opposite eyelids. I studied those babies. I painted one big toe nail on one baby, but the other baby sucked it off! That couldn't be good! I dressed them in different outfits, but after a few changes, who was wearing what became a problem.

We went to the pedi, who looked my babies over carefully and said one had a head that was 1/2 a centimeter smaller tahn the other. Right. 1/2 a centimeter? So if my mother said, "Dear, which of the girls do I have?" I could grab the tape measure and find out? Sheesh.

Then I went to visit a friend who also had identical twin boys, 2 years older and very smart. They asked who was who. I told them. They started telling me I ws wrong. I blew them off. They got irate, started yellin' and cryin' and pullin' on their mom and saying NO, they girls are the other way around. And I had to wait until they were asleep to see if they were right. And they were.









Now, I didn't know about Hep or piercing guns vs needles back then, and those birth marks were fading fast. So I took them to the mall. Until they were 5, Liz wore hearts and Nikki wore stars. In case of medical emergency, can you imagine...if one were unconsious and one died, I couldn't help but wonder how we'd ever know. What would I say? I don't know who's who?

At thirteen, that's not a problem. I can tell, but sometimes it takes a second look! Oh, and neither of them cried. THey were about 3 or 4 months old. They looked surprised, then they nursed, and it seemed ok.


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## Lucysmama (Apr 29, 2003)

It makes me so sad to see little babies with holes punched in their bodies. It's the same feeling I get when I see babies wrapped in sposies. Sure, it may be what people "do" here in our society, but does that make it ok? Does that make it right?

In my mind, piercing ears for cultural tradition (not family tradition, but true cultural tradition, such as piercing a baby's ears on their first birthday in India) is different than piercing for vanity's sake, or because that's "what girls should look like." That said, I still wouldn't pierce my child's ears for any reason.

"They are girls, they are supposed to have their ears pierced."

I mean, how sad is a statement like that? Our society has brainwashed people to the extent that they will punch holes in their newborns for no other reason than to have them look like our pop culture image of "girl".







Is it really *that* awful to have to correct people occasionally who guess the wrong gender of your baby?







: Does that really merit putting a needle through your baby's new flesh?

I was pierced as a small child, and had a traumatic experience that resulted in getting my ears lanced open a week later to drain all of the puss-y infection that occured. My ears are thick with scar tissue to this day. (I never repierced them on my own.) What was the point of piercing my ears? Of course! So I could look "girly". uke My experience may not have been typical, but it was completely unnecessary and done purely out of vanity on my mother's part.

To me, those earrings on babies - yes, even the gold and diamond ones - look so sad and vain and disrespectful.


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## mama3peanuts (May 28, 2003)

the other day, i was walking through the mall, slinging my little ella, when i heard the most frightened, betrayed, angry cry. it was obvious that the cry was from a newborn, and it didn't take me long to figure out that it was a baby getting her ears pierced at one of those little kiosks. the baby was obviously very upset, and the young (!) mother was busy putting her away in her little car seat/carrier rather than trying to comfort her. i cried in the middle of the mall because i felt so bad for the little girl, and her mama didn't seem to give a damn. she got what she wanted...a "pretty, girley baby".

i know that some of you will say that you held/nursed/comforted your baby afterwards. but it was still after you paid somebody to stick a needle through her tiny, perfect ears without ever asking her!

aren't we supposed to be protecting our babies from unneccesary pain and upset, rather than causing it? i know my babies expect that from me, and i don't plan to ever betray that trust.

i am not against piercing. i took my sister to be pierced when she was 15 (the labret, i think?), with my mother's blessing. it was my sister's choice, and also her responsibility.

and in fact, i have been pierced for years in various places, but my mama never let me get my ears pierced until i was 12. it may seem to be an arbitrary age, but for her (and eventually me), it was a coming of age thing...a symbol of responsibility and choice. and i'll tell you...it wasn't done on a whim. i looked forward to it for years, and gave it lots of thought, so that when the time came, i truly appreciated my choice.

sorry for the rambling, but i've been stewing about this thread for a day now.

amy


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## anothermama (Nov 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by eilonwy_
*This continues to bother me.. why does everyone assume that no 2 or 3 year old could possibly understand what they're asking? Just because you weren't self aware at that age doesn't mean that other people aren't.







:

I don't see any reason to make a child wait until they're some arbitrary age. I'm not in favor of piercing infants (or anyone who can't ask) but if my 2 or 4 or 9 year old asks, I certainly won't say no based on some arbitrary number I have in my head. That doesn't make any more sense to me than piercing them when they're infants.*
A two or three year old self aware!!!!!!?????

No........I do not assume a two or three year old isn't self aware...I KNOW THEY AREN'T. I don't remember when I was two or three so I'm not basing this on if I was or not......I'm basing this on basic psychology and common sense.

A 2 or 3 or even 4 year old just doesn't understand a lot of things....being self aware in this issue would mean being aware, to a degree, of the pain and how you could handle it, it would mean understanding the long term effects on your body and health, it would mean understanding HEALTH....I mean, sheesh....sure a 2 year old knows things mama tells them like "Eat your veggies to be healthy" but you really think you can sit down with a 2 year old and have a discussion about the ramifications of body modification and they'll really GET it???

Any given 2 year old who asks for ear piercing......you tell em yes and they'll get really excited and sure they'll probably nod and say "yea" when you say "Are you really really sure" but it doesn't mean they really are.

I don't think it should be an arbitrary age, either. My parents told me to wait till I was 16, but my dad caved when I was 15 and it was fine. My daughter will have to be elementary school aged, but it will really depend on her emotional and mental capacity at the time........maybe she'll be 9, maybe she'll be 12....maybe never. Who knows. All I DO know is that right now, she's 4...and while she's a very articulate and smart 4 year old, she's also a pretty normal kid and I don't think that even she would really GET IT till they put a needle through her ear and then she'd freak out.

Two or three year olds aren't self aware and should not have body modifications done to them until they are.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by mama3peanuts_
*the other day, i was walking through the mall, slinging my little ella, when i heard the most frightened, betrayed, angry cry. it was obvious that the cry was from a newborn, and it didn't take me long to figure out that it was a baby getting her ears pierced at one of those little kiosks. the baby was obviously very upset, and the young (!) mother was busy putting her away in her little car seat/carrier rather than trying to comfort her. i cried in the middle of the mall because i felt so bad for the little girl, and her mama didn't seem to give a damn. she got what she wanted...a "pretty, girley baby".

i know that some of you will say that you held/nursed/comforted your baby afterwards. but it was still after you paid somebody to stick a needle through her tiny, perfect ears without ever asking her!

aren't we supposed to be protecting our babies from unneccesary pain and upset, rather than causing it? i know my babies expect that from me, and i don't plan to ever betray that trust.

i am not against piercing. i took my sister to be pierced when she was 15 (the labret, i think?), with my mother's blessing. it was my sister's choice, and also her responsibility.

and in fact, i have been pierced for years in various places, but my mama never let me get my ears pierced until i was 12. it may seem to be an arbitrary age, but for her (and eventually me), it was a coming of age thing...a symbol of responsibility and choice. and i'll tell you...it wasn't done on a whim. i looked forward to it for years, and gave it lots of thought, so that when the time came, i truly appreciated my choice.

sorry for the rambling, but i've been stewing about this thread for a day now.

amy*


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## lauraess (Mar 8, 2002)

amy, that poor baby and her mama, so sad!!!!!








Gosh, I think i would be stewing over not saying something but then what good would that do????
I know, maybe we could have a peircing babies/toddlers march on some of those kiosks







.......hmmmm

Oh, and yes.. a 2 or 3 or 4 yr old self-awareness... PLEEZE!
My 5 yr old wouldnt have that full understanding in order to do something so physically altering.
I think some mamas are needing to get a clue. sorry. this is not very NICe but really Are you kidding me????
Laura


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by lauraess_
*
Oh, and yes.. a 2 or 3 or 4 yr old self-awareness... PLEEZE!
My 5 yr old wouldnt have that full understanding in order to do something so physically altering.
I think some mamas are needing to get a clue. sorry. this is not very NICe but really Are you kidding me????
Laura*
Again, just because you weren't you shouldn't assume that no one is. I guess I'm a total freak, but I certainly understood everything that was involved when I was 2. Yes, I mean everything. Maybe I was just an unbelievably brilliant child, but please get over yourselves. It is possible. I'm not saying every 2 year old who asks should be pierced, but I am saying that you have to be open to the possibility that yes, they may actually (God forbid!) understand what they're asking for, even if you weren't capable of true understanding at that age. You don't need to be nasty to me just because I wasn't an average child. I think *you* are the one who desperately needs a clue.







:


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## anothermama (Nov 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by eilonwy_
*Again, just because you weren't you shouldn't assume that no one is. I guess I'm a total freak, but I certainly understood everything that was involved when I was 2. Yes, I mean everything. Maybe I was just an unbelievably brilliant child, but please get over yourselves. It is possible. I'm not saying every 2 year old who asks should be pierced, but I am saying that you have to be open to the possibility that yes, they may actually (God forbid!) understand what they're asking for, even if you weren't capable of true understanding at that age. You don't need to be nasty to me just because I wasn't an average child. I think *you* are the one who desperately needs a clue.







:*
Wow.

Well I don't think you should base YOUR assumptions on YOUR experience. Read any basic psychology text......go spend some time in a day care with 2 year olds........more two year olds are NOT as self aware as you claim you were. Maybe you WERE an ubvelievably brilliant child....most people dont remember hardly anything from when they were two, let alone be able to recollect their level of self awareness.

If you were ... awesome. But most 2 year olds aren't. They just aren't.


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## Ms.Doula (Apr 3, 2003)

For me its like this:

I am the mom here. I make the decisions that concern my children. They are MY responsibility. What they want or dont want, what they have done or dont have done... its up to me. I have to live with the choice and my children future. whatever decisions I make whatwever choices come in life. I am not going to wait everything out for their "Rights". God put these children in MY care, because He knows I am fully capable of doing right by them. And just because a few of you ladies wish your ears were never pierced, and some of you think it is shamefull to pierce a baby's ears.... then thats probably the best choice for YOU & YOUR child. Your child will probably grow up with many of the same ideals/philosophies that you hold. I love being "girly with my earrings" so my daughters most-likely will see nothing wrong with it either.

Let's not condem each other based on our choices. I think we all strive towards being the best mothers we can be, we are all in different places, and on different paths though... so whats good for one.... may not be for another.....


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## anothermama (Nov 11, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Ms.Doula_
*For me its like this:

I am the mom here. I make the decisions that concern my children. They are MY responsibility. What they want or dont want, what they have done or dont have done... its up to me. I have to live with the choice and my children future. whatever decisions I make whatwever choices come in life. I am not going to wait everything out for their "Rights". God put these children in MY care, because He knows I am fully capable of doing right by them. And just because a few of you ladies wish your ears were never pierced, and some of you think it is shamefull to pierce a baby's ears.... then thats probably the best choice for YOU & YOUR child. Your child will probably grow up with many of the same ideals/philosophies that you hold. I love being "girly with my earrings" so my daughters most-likely will see nothing wrong with it either.

Let's not condem each other based on our choices. I think we all strive towards being the best mothers we can be, we are all in different places, and on different paths though... so whats good for one.... may not be for another.....*
I agree with your premise....children are in our care. And I don't think anyone sees anything wrong with piercing ears to look girly or whatnot.

But I think the whole "whatevers best for you and your family" thing is kind of a cop out, to be honest. You're talking about body modification, not wearing a hat in the sun or not. I don't think it's ok to just dismiss it is a personal preference.....its not just "I'm going to dress my kid in only green"...it's a health issue.

To be *really* honest, that whole attitude irks the heck out of me. We have become so PC orriented that it's never ok to say to parents "Whoa...maybe you need to rethink that" because of this whole *personal perference* thing that we don't hold parents accountable for making poor choices with their children. It's like saying breastfeeding is a personal choice...yeah, I guess it is, but at least own that you are feeding your child in a substandard way. You know? Sure...pierce your kid, but at least lets acknowledge it shows a degree of disrespect for them and their bodies if done before they are able to consent and know whats going on.


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## Ms.Doula (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:

at least lets acknowledge it shows a degree of disrespect for them and their bodies
Again... Thats your oppinion. I disagree.

I stand behind the choices I make regarding my children. They are always thought out, never done on a whim. Like I said... I am responsible for them, I am accountable for the choices I make for them & regarding them -to noone else but God. I think its crappy for you to say ;

Quote:

.....hold parents accountable for making poor choices with their children
I *DON'T* feel I made "poor choices" and it isnt for anyone else to say!!! Thats my whole point!


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

I have been lurking here for a while and shouldn't EVEN be getting into this.... BUT, big gulp, here goes.......

I am not trying to sound argumentative, but how can you rationalize equating making a decision to give a child medicine and putting a hole in their ear for cosmetic reasons.

I am a very strict mom. (Until recently that is - loving MDC) My entire MO since I gave birth the first time (10 years ago) was that these children came into MY life. So I completely understand where you are coming from when you say that you make the decisions for your child because they are in your care. I am right there with you. Sometimes you can't be gentle and you just have to do it because I said so - I'm sure that this is not a popular statement around here - but most of the moms who would disagree with that statement don't have older kids yet! Anyway - I make decisions for the WELFARE of my kids - sometimes whether they like it or not. But piercing a child's ear has nothing to do with their welfare.

So if you are going to hold on to the idea that you will do what you want because they are in your care - and those decisions have nothing to do with the health or welfare of the child - Then it is NOT your decision....

YKWIM


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

well, to address the issue of ear piercing in general...

Quote:

I think it is disempowering to do this to your child.
... and i also think it's incredibly disrespectful. i would NOT want my body altered in any way without my full consent. and a baby can't give consent.

i am Spanish, and all of my aunts and cousins on my father's side all had gold rings put in their ears when they were babies. my father never agreed with that and said that if i wanted my ears pierced, i'd have to wait until i was 13 (why 13? i don't know. it was just his rule.)

looking back, i'm VERY glad he did that. i did go out and get my ears pierced when i was 13, right after my birthday in fact, but at that point it was more just to prove that i _could_, that i had that control over my body.

i also don't believe in circumsision, for the same reason: not my body, not my choice.

i want my daughter (assuming my baby is a girl







) to grow up knowing her body is HER OWN and nobody has a right to it but herself. if she wants piercings or tats or *whatever* when she's old enough to make an informed decision herself, great, that's her choice. but i'm not going to impose *my* ideal of beauty -- or in the case of just piercing, society's ideal -- on *her*.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

also, to address some comments specifically ~

Quote:

I'm guessing taht most of you mothers that are dead set agaist ear peircing also don't vax right? Adn I noticed that most of you have boys so I'm guessing they aren't circ" right? I hope not otherwise you aer inflicting pain and that's not right or at least that's your theory, right?Also are your own ears peirced? How you told your mother's how you felt? Do you look down on those tribal traditions such as lip plates and such also?
i vaccinated my son fully, because in all of the research i have done (and i have done very much... esp. considering i'm majoring in microbiology) i consider the risks of NOT vaccinating to far outweigh the perceived risks of vaxxing. my son is also one of the healthiest kids i've ever met, and he's only been sick about 3 times in his life. i consider this a medical issue, not a body mod issue.

my son is *not* circumcised, because it's an unnecessary cosmetic procedure -- just like ear piercing. it alters the natural function and feeling (and appearance!!!!) of the boy's penis, and it's not *my* right to take that away from him.

i do have my own ears pierced (most of the holes i did myself with sterile equpment), and after my baby's born i plan to get more body mods (tattoos, horizontal nipple bars, libret, navel...) because 1) it's my choice, and 2) i consider it beautiful. i would not impose that on my baby girl, though.

my mom knows that her idea of beauty is completely different from my idea of beauty, and she's ok with that (although she doesn't understand it).

and yes, i do look down on tribal cultures that have traditions like lip plates and female circumcision and ritual scarring and ritual burns and beating boys so they grow up to be "men"... and so on. i consider those practices awful and barbaric and i really think they need to stop. but, i'm not part of those cultures, and the people who are don't understand our culture either. :: shrug ::

Quote:

I DONT personally know of ANYONE that has ear peircings & as an adult, doesn't want them anymore
i can name two of my friends off of the top of my head who both hated their ear piercings and let their holes close up as soon as it was their decision to make.

Quote:

The "sexual" piercings (nipples, tongue, genitalia) are to increase sensation, either for one's self or for one's partner.
maybe for some but definitely not for most of the people i know, including myself. i personally like the way nipple bars look... i think it's a beautiful bit of jewelry that enhances a woman's natural assets.


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## lauraess (Mar 8, 2002)

Well..... so, what did i say that was Nasty? -that some mamas need to get a clue---- oh yes, did that offend? gee sorry.
what really is funny is that when one considers themselves an exception to the rule as in 2 yrs old and able to comprehend informed consent than why debate in a general audience of "average" situations??
This debate is over young children who cannot make their own decisions based on full knowledge of consequences and the People who choose to "control" their lives and their bodies.
Not the very rare child who can comprehend bodily pain, risk of infection, Gender stereotypes , and a semi-permanant disfigurement.







:
Laura


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

We can debate back and forth on the topic. I wish that the Mother's that do decide to pierce their children before the children are mature enough to make that desision for themselves would just step up and admit they are doing it because _they_ want their kids to have earings. I really don't believe that they are doing it to help their children or because they believe their children will want the piercing anyway and they are saving them time and money. Just admit that it is your own sense of esthetics that drives you to do it.

I stand behing my initial debate in this thread and that is IT is disempowering to do this to your children. It is disrespectful and yet again another example of how the power to control our bodies is often taken away from us, and in this case at a *very* young and *unaware* age.


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## lauraess (Mar 8, 2002)

Mountain mom:







i agree wholeheartedly.
One thing i have definately learned over the years with the help of mothering mag. is that the control issue really drives a lot of what is messed up in our society and in our families.
Theres a difference between being the parent who makes the rules and controling children. They are not ours, imo, they are gifts that we have for a short time to care for, not to mold and fit into our wishes and expectations.
I'd be so much happier to take my dd when she is an approriate age and have her step into the world of adornment than to hand her little earlobes over to a stranger w/ a piercing device and have to soothe her tears and confusion.
Laura


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

I was almost pulled into the ear peircing thing with my dd. I had my ears done when I was 5 years old and I freaked out, my mom made me feel so bad about it and so did the guy who did them, calling me a baby and my mom got mad and said I couldn't have ice cream if I didn't let the guy finish.... and after he was done I had to say I was sorry to him. I thought that if I did it when dd was little she wouldn't have that bad time getting it done. I also wanted people to see that she was a girl. I was sure it would make everyone call her a girl, because she had that bald white baby non-sex look to her, and no matter how "girlie" I dressed her (pink dress, pink hair bow stuck on her bald head, pink shoes and socks) people still called her a boy. BUT my dh was not into it and said it was something she should want to do for herself. So I finally let it go.
At age 5 dd wanted to get her ears peirced, we decided she should wait a while and watch a few, she decide to wait too. So when she was six, she wanted to do it. I took her in they did it with two ear peircing guns and it was over in about 2 seconds. She loved her earrings and she takes good care of her ears. That has been about 4 years ago. I think waiting was the thing for us.
Also about the ear hole closing up, that isn't always the case, the longer the hole is there the more likely it is to stay. I haven't worn earrings in about 7 years, and my holes are still open. My dd can go months without wearing them and her holes are still open. And as weird as it sound, I also for no reason get an infection in my ear holes too. Usually about once a year.
Another funny thing, all of my nieces have their ears peirced all done when they were wee babes and people still called them boys. My nephew who has big blue eyes and long black lashes was called a girl until he was 3 years old. I don't think it matter either way, people think long hair and long lashes equal girl and bald babies equal boy. (My nieces were also dressed as girlie as possible.)
H


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## lauraess (Mar 8, 2002)

Mama of 3: That is a great story that accounts for the shallowness/ or at least covers it when it comes to the parents and their selfish need to have a baby look Gender-appropriate.
I think that story you must carry around with you is sad and telling of a lot. then, to have to apologize?!







Man, if i was you id be sooo mad and confused as a child (which i was of course for other selfish parents reasons







: )
Im glad that you and your dh decided to wait and let your child decide when she was ready.









Good for you and you dd!!!! im sure she looks beautiful especially haveing the say in the matter and after you supporting her and EMPOWERING her.

Laura


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## morgan's_mom (Aug 25, 2002)

Quote:

But I think the whole "whatevers best for you and your family" thing is kind of a cop out, to be honest.
I agree with you; in many situations, I think it is a copout. It irritates me to no end that on most parenting boards, I could probably post, "I have decided to feed my child battery acid because I have researched it and I think it is what is best for her," and a dozen people would probably come back and say, "well, you have to do whatever's best for your family...blah blah blah."

THAT SAID, although I wouldn't *personally* pierce my daughter's ears until she is old enough to decide whether she wants them or not and can take care of them herself, I don't have a problem with someone else doing it, and I think the "whatever works for you" line is appropriate on this issue.

I don't equate it to circumcision, tattooing, etc. It's a hole in the ear. Sure, she didn't ask for it, but she doesn't ask to have bows in her hair or wear frilly dresses either (yes, I know it's not exactly analogous). Also, assuming she decides she doesn't want it later on, it's not permanent (at least not to the degree that a tattoo or circ is) and it doesn't affect body function (like circ could, for example).

Oh, and FWIW, I love the way earrings look on little girls. Not so much tiny babies...but on toddlers -- I think age appropriate earrings are very cute! For me, though, the benefit of waiting outweighs the cuteness factor. For others, it may not. *shrug*

Also, anecdotally -- I have noticed that a number of teenage girls do not have their ears pierced these days...at least not in my little suburban corner of the world.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

I don't get this, I really don't. You are punching a hole in your child's ear for NO reason whatsoever. There is NO reason to do it. Wanting to make your child look girly is such a horrible reason imo. Talk about enforcing gender stereotypes at a young age. And YES!! It IS permanent. Everyone keeps saying it isn't permanent which is a load of bull. My holes never closed over. My cousin hasn't worn earrings for THIRTEEN years and hers didn't close over. I am so disturbed by this that mamas who claim to have their childs best interest at heart could take this choice away from their child, do something PERMANENT to their body without their consent . It is not our choice! It is not our bodies! And they are not our possessions to do with what we will.

And on the other note about PC parenting, I totally agree. How many times do I hear someone say "well I wouldn't let my child CIO but you have to do what works best for you." Excuse me?! So we are to condone child abuse and neglect because its a personal choice. Or someone chooses to hit their child as part of their parenting choices and that's okay? NO! It is not OUR choice. They are not our possessions. If we truly want whats best for our children we will ALWAYS act in their best interest and NOONE can convince me it is in a child's best interests to have their ears pierced (or be left to CIO, or to be formula fed, or hit).


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## tabitha (Sep 10, 2002)

i think we lose track of what were all saying when loaded phrases like "bad mom" "good mom" are used.

do i think someone is a "bad mom" for piercing their girl's ears? no, and i would never use that phrase.

do i think it is a violation of any child's civil rights ? yes, i do. i firmly believe we are all endowed from birth with basic human rights, and while i am my child's guardian i am not entitiled to violate my child's rights. no one is. i must make decisions when it comes to protecting my son, but they must always be in HIS best interests, not in my own ( cultural perceptions are my own, not my childs).

i was pierced as a baby. yes, i have told my mother today that i think it was wrong of her to do it. i would not lie to her. she knows i think she was wrong to smoke while i was in her womb, she knows i wish she had troubled herself to breastfeed me, among a lot of other things she did/ didnt do. i will never forgive dh's parents for circumcizing him. they know he and i think it was wrong (they still think circ prevents STDS). i dont think there is anything wrong with being honest across the board about your beliefs.

human rights, including human children, are of utmost importance to me and to our family. if i violated my son, how can i teach him to respect his sons? if i violate my daughter's rights, how can i teach her to be a strong woman? how can i teach her to keep others from violating her? will a young girl respect her body if even her own mother does not?

when the girl in my womb is old enough to choose, she will make her choice. and i will respect her choice. and i hope she grows up knowing she has a mother who respects her and supports her in everything she does.

the best we can all do is to raise gentle people. and the best way to do this is to be gentle ourselves.

tabitha

eta: the 'size' or 'importance' of a human rights violation doesnt matter. if it is "ok" to make a small hole in an ear without consent, what else is "ok"? who decides what is and isnt ok?

why cant one debate human rights violations just because the people who may or may not commit them believe in their own minds that its "a cultural thing"? that makes absolutely no sense to me. if somewhere off in the world there was a culture who scarred up the faces of all their babies at birth, would that be OK? just because they believe that it makes them more godly or something? what if off in some other culture, fathers sexually molested all their girl children because in their culture that was deemed OK? cultural perceptions/ normalcies are no excuse for human rights violations IMO, however "innocent" or "small".

i believe WE ALL, young and old and of any race, have rights.


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## Lucysmama (Apr 29, 2003)

Tabitha-







ITA!


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

I got dd's ear's pierced when she was a baby. but I was a vaxer back then too.

HOWEVER i do have to say that it didn't hurt her much if at all. She wrinkled up her brow a bit, but didn't cry at all. She just looked a bit startled and curious. It didn't occur to me that it could hurt because mine were done when I was 4 and it didn't hurt at all then. But as I've gotten older each peircing has hurt more. My skin and cartiledge have gotten tougher. Dd's ears are still peirced, though she had to have one redone when she was 5 because her dad left her earrings out for the summer when he had her and it closed up. That time it DID hurt her though. But she begged for it as a b-day present. And even though she screamed when it happened she was thrilled when she looked in the mirror. She's 8 now, and has been caring for her own ears for 2 years with no probs.

-Heather


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

I do have to say that I think Orion would look SO cool w/ an earring, I think it would be cute! However, they aren't my ears to pierce. I have one of those magnetic ones, I should put it on him in his rocker hot topic onesie for a moment to take a photo! :LOL


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## Midwesternmomma (Nov 2, 2003)

I'm going to sneek out on a limb here...and very quietly say that I too have a daughter with pierced ears. They were pierced when she was 9 weeks old. My husband is from Spain and ear piercing IS cultural there. It is very definately something that he wanted done. There are many, many things that are more important that I have not compromised on when I felt that they were absolutely incomprehsible. This was something that while I didn't like the idea of ever causing my daughter pain, I knew the piercing was important to him. We live in THIS country, far from his family and culture, and this was a relatively minor compromise I made.

That said...I cried more than she did when it was done. She did cry, but she immediately went to the breast and was fine afterwards. I took imaculate care of them and she has never had a problem. Today, I think they are adorable.

Flame me if you like, but I am not sorry I did it.

Christina


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:

I got dd's ear's pierced when she was a baby. but I was a vaxer back then too.
ok, i honestly don't understand how these are on the same page. one is purely cosmetic, and the other has a whole lot of medical reasoning behind it. this was brought up in this thread before and i just don't understand the perspective.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

I was merely illustrating that I had dd's ears peirced at a time in my life before I questioned things. I vaxed back then because it didn't occur to me that I had a choice.

-Heather


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

oh.

ok.


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## Moon (Nov 25, 2001)

Children's body's are their own. They deserve to make permanent choices for themselves.

I don't understand inflicting pain, for even two seconds, for the sole purposes of appearance. Especially to a child incapable of understanding the reasons.

Nature takes care of the "looking girly" thing well enough for me.

It IS mutilation, unless they are giving informed consent.

You want girly? By froufrou socks, for pity's sake. Or those beautiful little bracelets I see some baby girls wearing


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by lauraess_
*Oh , I see, Like the Scientific evidence, right? sorry but i CAN Use my goddess given and Mom acquired abilities to see all the facts without having to be told by some "professional"--- as in circing. vaxeds, babywearing, bfing, and that "stuff"
so, if YOU thnk this a stupid Debate than why debate the debate.
I for one consider the children of the world to be important and their issues to be mine and my grandchildrens.
maybe if someone actually wants to debate with an openmind in order to possibly help someone who is struggling with her cultures ideas and thoughts to be strenghtened in doing what SHE wants INSTEAD. Therefore This in not a pointless DEBATE.
laura*
Okay..... now I've been gone a while so I don't know whty your panties seem to be in a buch over my comment, is there something is particular that ticked your nerve? Um, don't remember saying it was stupid either, just was pointing out that if you were looking for some kind of facts as your prevoius posts seemed to be, then there wasn't any. You must just like to debate? Anyway..... I just don't have the gaul as some of you do to call someone a bad mom or shame shaming because they do things differant. But I've cometo realize that alot of the mothers here have this utipian view of how life should be and tend to get upset or even offended when things vary outside of that, I get that and hey great for you but don't add words to my post, keep it real.
Blessings


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## lauraess (Mar 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by jeca_
*qoute:
Do I got that right?

what is it your trying to debate? there is no factual evidence supporting ear peircing, it's usually done based on cultural traditions as already stated so there really isn't going to be anything but you say nay and I say nay type stuff. I think that if you just want to debate something it should be sometig that has supprting evidenae either for or against. Like cir'd, vaxes, babywearing, CIO that type of stuff. things like ear peircing can only get into "well what a stupid culture"type name calling.(no way suggesting that am mama here would say that(not saying they wouldn't either).*
It seems clear that our thoughts as wise, learned mamas here on MDC dont count as facts to you. many of us laugh at the "facts" given to us by drs because frankly, we KNOW better--- We can see the facts AND feel them. So As this thread was started as a debate the Fact that early, forced ear-piercing on young children is cultural is OnLY ONE fACT . Many Of Us Here Gave the others and you dont seems to Regard them as Thus.
And as far as the views some of us have, perhaps its not Utopian, rather..... Humanitarian.

laura


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## Ilaria (Jan 14, 2002)

To answer the OP...I would never alter my children's bodies in way...it took me over 40 weeks to create each and they're both perfect the way they are.

I don't think piercing is the same as circumcizing, but I do think it is wrong...I can see cultural/tradition reasons a bit more than 'looking a girl'.
Another reason I wouldn't do it to my daughter is because, simply put, I think babies or toddlers with pierced ears look silly. Kinda like those little girls dressed up for a beauty pageant.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by lauraess_
*It seems clear that our thoughts as wise, learned mamas here on MDC dont count as facts to you. many of us laugh at the "facts" given to us by drs because frankly, we KNOW better--- We can see the facts AND feel them. So As this thread was started as a debate the Fact that early, forced ear-piercing on young children is cultural is OnLY ONE fACT . Many Of Us Here Gave the others and you dont seems to Regard them as Thus.
And as far as the views some of us have, perhaps its not Utopian, rather..... Humanitarian.

laura*
But I didn't say anything too far from what a few other's said about teh cultural thing but you seemed so seethed at my post and rather mellow with a few other's so again I ask is there something in particular that twisted your britches?
As far as facts go I will clear that up. Most debates spout off lots of facts from "independant" sources with links and things included to back up their pov. That's the kind of facts I was speaking of. To imply that I don't respect what mothers' here have "learned" or believe is just plain silly if that was the case I wouln't come here for a simpathetic ear or advice on child rearing issues now would I? You seem to want to cling to the idea that I'm putting down your views and those like minded mamas but that's the differance between us I don't do things like that. I don't try to shame a mama ormake her feel bad about her choices even if I don't agree with them perhaps that makes me mre of humanitarian than you'd like to believe. All I did is point out(like others) that it is more of a cultural thing if you choose to take it in anegative or hateful tone well nothing I can do about that. I respect the mothers here opinions far more than most respect mine. I am not trying to change anyone's mind was just giving my opinion on the matter probably makes for a poor debate but that's all I have.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

_I'm posting a reminder to everybody to please address your comments to the general audience and to the issue at hand rather than directing your comments to any one member. Please try to maintain the civil tone this thread has held on to (for the most part!). I'd hate to have to close it down when it's gotten this far!

Thank you._


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## sleepies (Nov 30, 2001)

i love seeing ear rings on little baby girls and young girls.

i have no problem with doing things for cosmetic reasons.

it only hurts for a few seconds. it isn't a big deal to me.

lots of things in life hurt, especially if you are a female.

pain is half of being female.

anyway, i think they are CUTE.

THAT SAID, id not let a baby have them if the baby tugged on them or got infections with them. if so, id remove


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## tabitha (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by sleepies_
*
lots of things in life hurt, especially if you are a female.

pain is half of being female.
*

why in the world would you believe that?


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## Ilaria (Jan 14, 2002)

Quote:

i have no problem with doing things for cosmetic reasons.








Anything? Even to children? You cannot be serious.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:

lots of things in life hurt, especially if you are a female.

pain is half of being female.








































i *really* hope you're not going to teach that perspective to your daughters.


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## Ms.Doula (Apr 3, 2003)

I think some of you need to lighten up.... really.







: I can think of FAR MORE PRESSING things to debate on and trash people about..... Wanna name a few??


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## tabitha (Sep 10, 2002)

repectfully, ms doula, i think human (including baby humans) rights violations are a very big deal.

if it is ok for a parent to pierce a baby's ears or cut off their foreskin, what else is ok? do parents OWN babies? where to children start having rights of their own? just when it comes to neglect, incest, abuse? or should their rights begin where ours begin- *if they are equally human*? who decides what is "just a little hole" or "just a cultural thing"?


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## Ilaria (Jan 14, 2002)

Quote:

I can think of FAR MORE PRESSING things to debate on and trash people about.....
Sure, and we do debate those too.
No one is making anyone participate in this debate.


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## Ms.Doula (Apr 3, 2003)

true. Buth if the Mommas being flamed/bashed did NOT post, then this would not be much of a debate, would it? But rather it would be a biased, one-sided discussion I think. I just think the expressing of matters of oppinions here could be shared more kindly.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

it seems to me like nobody's actually _discussing_ anything here. one side is saying, "babies are people too, and deserve rights and respect," and another side is saying, "gosh you people are dumb, get over it, it's just a cute little hole."

** just my interpretation of what's going on...


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

your right, nothing is being discussed. But my interpretation is more of one side saying "it's not that serious, it's just a little hhole" and the other side saying" what stupid mean mother's you are abusing your daughters".
Funny how things are interprited huh?


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## MamaJosie (Apr 26, 2003)

any other replies but my personal feelings about piercings are they should not be done to a child at all. It is similar to circumcision in my eyes because you are permanently altering another person's body without their informed adult consent and I consider it morally wrong and a human rights violation. I don't excuse it for "cultural" reasons as I don't for circumcision either. I understand why a person would do it a little more maybe if part of their cultural heritage but I still consider it wrong. That doesnt mean I would bash someone over it but those are my feelings.


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## tabitha (Sep 10, 2002)

Jeca, and others, if you are interested, throughout this thread no one has responded to these issues:

Quote:

_Originally posted by tabitha_
*i think human (including baby humans) rights violations are a very big deal.

if it is ok for a parent to pierce a baby's ears or cut off their foreskin, what else is ok? do parents OWN babies? where to children start having rights of their own? just when it comes to neglect, incest, abuse? or should their rights begin where ours begin- if they are equally human? who decides what is "just a little hole" or "just a cultural thing"?*
there is just no way my position and questions can be interpreted they way you claim, especially since it doesnt seem anyone who is in favor of ear piercing wants to respond to them. why not? nothing to say? honestly, i wouldnt persist in posting these questions if i didnt really want to know what you (and others) think.

are children equally as human as adults, entitled to the same basic human rights? i am sure we can all agree it is not within, say, our husband or partner's rights to modify OUR bodies without our consent. we're adults, you know, we have rights?

tabitha


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:

... throughout this thread no one has responded to these issues...
tabitha that's exactly what i mean! it's like there's no real discussion going on.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by mountain mom_
*I think that if you are to teach your daughter respect for her body, then how can you violate that by piercing her ears before she is capable of making that important decision on her own. It is violating to her to take this matter in your own hands.*


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by angstmommy_
*I am anti mainly because it is not my body. I do not believe that I have the right to do that to her.*


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

I went back to the start of this thread and there are some great opinions illustrating the point of the child's body being their own and it is disrespectful to take this desision as one that the parent has the right to make.

I have asked this of those who pierce and I still have yet to get an answer.

"How can you pierce your children without their consent? I want to know what makes you believe that you are in charge of this decision."

Some have answered it is a cultural motivation, but that answer seems vague to me.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

NAK well I had this lenghtly reply but accidently hit f5 and it all went bye bye but here we go..again.my keys are acting up so it may look weird.

I must be a gluton for punishment or something but here we go.....
How can you cut your childs hair without their consent_ how do you know they would choose to have that done_ what about mamas who choose not to vaccinate_ if your child knew the pros and the cons how do you they would choose not to_ same thing for mamas who do vax_ how do they know twhie child wants to be injected with vaccinations_what about mamas who don{t circumsise are you sure that{s what the child would chose_ my brother actually asked my mother when he got older why she didn{t circ him as did my husband. I personaaly don{t circ, my son is not circ but he may also cometo me when when he is older and askk teh same question. I also know people whose children asked them why didn{t they perice their ears when they were younger, they wanted tehir rars periced and wished it was donewhen they couldn{t remember it. Those who raise their children to be vegan, is that what the child wants_ how do you know_what about baptizing or christinings_ how can you choose that for them, do you know they want to be raised in that manner. Some of you may feel these examples are slight but bottem line is aren{t you making these decisions for your children_
I am not for or agaist ear pericing actually. Probably why I have one peirced one not. I honestly have no opinion on that matter anymore. But to dismass cultural traditions or customs as [stupid[, [silly[ or worng is really just looking down your nose at things that you think you are bettter than IIMO. WHat about tribal lip plates_or even arranged marriages. I knew a none year old with a nose ring, She{s from some place in india I believe I can{t remember the exact was I surprised, well a little but I don{t know there tribal or cultural xcustoms and I wouldn{t dare assume to. It doesn{t bother me if someone wouldn{t dare do it or they think it{s wrong but don{t bash the mother for not being like you.
you think the cultural thing is vague but I feel the same way about the right to choose stance_ where does it began and end_


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## Midwesternmomma (Nov 2, 2003)

What I think is interesting throughout this discussion is that those who oppose ear piercing seem to be upset that (recently) those who have chosen to pierce are not arguing..

Could it be that we are OK with our decision? I personally do not need the approval of anyone to feel self-justified. I have expressed why we chose to pierce our daughter's ears, yet some call cultural reasons "vague." I don't see what is vague about the practices and traditions of another culture. Possibly they are not the same as yours so you do not understand them, yet that does not make them vague.

Do not assume that those who have chosen to pierce their daughters ears are sinking into the background and wishing they had not done it. This is not my case, though I cannot speak for others.

What we did, we did for reasons that we felt were justified. If you don't agree with our decisions, that is fine. I won't loose sleep over it.

Christina


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Midwestenmomma_
*
Do not assume that those who have chosen to pierce their daughters ears are sinking into the background and wishing they had not done it. This is not my case, though I cannot speak for others.

What we did, we did for reasons that we felt were justified. If you don't agree with our decisions, that is fine. I won't loose sleep over it.

Christina*
fOR NOT SPEAKING FOR OTHERS YOU SAID IT WELL.sorry about the caps this keyboard is all funky acting. I know some of you are truly adament about this and I can admire that but if she doesn't want the hole, take out the earring. It's not irreversable as you may like to believe and for those who choose to do it at a young age they are not mentally scarred, they don't even remember it. I don't loose sleep over it


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

I was not refering to the choice to pierce due to cultural ties as vague....the explanation of culture itself was vague.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

This is the point where I personally feel like I have gotten what I need in this discussion and I bid goodbye respectfully. \

Take care all mommas, those who do and those who don't


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## Ms.Doula (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:

"How can you pierce your children without their consent? I want to know what makes you believe that you are in charge of this decision."
I think jeca put it pretty much how I was going to make my point.
Exept I would have added that I thought *I DID* answer this in a earlier post where I stated that The LORD gave these children to ME to raise & I am accountable only to Him, so I *am* In charge of ALL their decissions till they are of legal age & reason. If it is something I deem not harmfull to them, and I feel is a good choice for them... so be it.

Hope hat helps shed some light on my stance...


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

"It's not irreversable as you may like to believe "

Aarrrghhhh! How many times do I have to say this??? YES FOR SOME PEOPLE IT IS IRREVERSIBLE! I had mine done, I have not worn earrings in 5 years and they have not closed over. AT ALL! I tried last night just for the heck of it and the earring went right in. and it is a visible hole mark on my ear, a little scar on what would have been perfectly natural looking ears. I don't like earrings, I think they look incredibly tacky (on myself, just my opinion). But I am still left with these holes. It has nothing to do with what I may like to believe it is what I KNOW!


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## lauraess (Mar 8, 2002)

Heavenly, I heard you say it the first time and wasnt there someone else too? and Not only do you KNoW the holes are there you Know in your heart when it was done it was a violation to you- not something you wanted, not something very useful or needed to keep you healthy either. Thank goodness you can at least grow from this act that was done to you and be aware of it's potential effects on your kids . - to stop the chain of violence, imo.
Laura


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## lauraess (Mar 8, 2002)

Ya know i find the idea that god gave us these children to raise and so i can make their decisions for them... an excuse, an easy excuse to cling to---It's not my opinion that I can do what i want to these kids because they're MINE. I dont think they are mine.
God gave them to me to care for and to appreciate as humans, gifts in my care until they can safely go out on their own. Where does altering a body with a hole for adornment with jewelry come in to "caring for" ?????
As far as Vague goes: I think we are refering to reasons that omit/ overlook health concerns, since usually when we break the skin and flesh of a child it is for serious health decisions. not for vanitys sake. why are cultural piercing done anyway??? for health reasons??? I find it unlikely that even the cultures whose customs go way back thru the ages use piercing on girls to keep them physically healthy. of course, emotionally healthy is certainly another thing, yet I would expect a mother who chooses to follow this line of thinking to be deeply involved w/ her customs so as to not have an inkling about self-love or self-appreciation without the necesity of physical altering.
You know, the kind of Patriarchal societies we all know of.
I'm thinking that most americans and Europeans have enough understanding-no matter what their culture is to at-least consider letting a child be just a child not a conformed gender-type.








Laura


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## Alegria (Jul 21, 2002)




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## Midwesternmomma (Nov 2, 2003)

Alegria that was the best...I needed a laugh.


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## Alegria (Jul 21, 2002)

no, i'm serious, cuff me and take me away now. I am a terrorist


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## Ms.Doula (Apr 3, 2003)

*Alegria-* *THANK YOU!!!*







:


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## Lucysmama (Apr 29, 2003)

None of the pro-piercing moms have addressed the issue of alleged disrespect for their children's bodies....wondering how you all feel about that.

How can you pierce your babies and then honestly feel that you respect their bodies as their own? Don't you see how disrespectful it is to alter a person's body without their permission? Even if the hole will close over, they are still left with scars on otherwise perfect ears. What kind of message are you sending to your child about their bodies? Is it a message that they need to be altered/scarred/jeweled to be acceptable? How can you scar them for life (no pun intended) without asking them? I just don't understand the logic there....







:


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## Lucysmama (Apr 29, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Alegria_
*I confess, I have violated my daughter when she was so helpless, I abused her . what disrespect I've shown her.
*









Uhhh....yup.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Lucysmama_
*None of the pro-piercing moms have addressed the issue of alleged disrespect for their children's bodies....wondering how you all feel about that.

How can you pierce your babies and then honestly feel that you respect their bodies as their own? Don't you see how disrespectful it is to alter a person's body without their permission? Even if the hole will close over, they are still left with scars on otherwise perfect ears. What kind of message are you sending to your child about their bodies? Is it a message that they need to be altered/scarred/jeweled to be acceptable? How can you scar them for life (no pun intended) without asking them? I just don't understand the logic there....







:*
I do not think piercing a whole in a baby's ear is a mutilation. (Anymore than an adult getting herself 20 piercings in her ear is.) I do think cutting off the pieces of genitals is.

Here is what I don't get.

If adults get themselves pierced? Aren't they "mutilating" themselves by your logic? EVEN with full consent! If you are saying it's a mutilation, THEN it's a mutilation. Period.

"How can you pierce YOUR body and then *honestly feel that you respect yourself?*

Don't you see how *disrespectful* it is to yourself to do that?

Even if the hole closes over, you are still left with *scars* on an otherwise *perfect body*.

What kind of *message* are you sending to your child if you are covered in piercings?

Is it a message that you need to be *altered/scarred/jeweled* to be acceptable?

And back to something I brought up way back, was it psychologist Alice ******, who proposed that piercings WAS an unconscious form of self-hatred. Why are women willing (gleefully) piercing their own nipples?









~ ~ ~~ ~ ~ ~ ~~

I really don't care that adult women are covered in piercing (from their breasts to their genitals) and tatoos. It is your body, but if you are calling a piercing a "mutilation" well..... I don't see how you can't see the possibility in adult piercings.









No adult self-piercer wants to admit that they have caused harm to themselves (or even CONSIDER the possibility. It's all good in their eyes). They just don't see it that way. Is it any surprise that mothers who pierce their daughters don't either? Why is that so hard to understand?


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

CK's mama, the ONLY thing I don't like about my infant piercing was that the hole didn't stay centered. It moved. That's why I hated it growing up. And maybe hate is too strong of a word. Because I did (do) love earrings. I just hated it wasn't centered. Otherwise, I personally don't care that it was done.

I wouldn't do it to my own DD, because I don't think that they "need" it to be beautiful.

But I also can't see the strong need (7 pages long) to "be right" in this case. It just seems a bit self-righteous, misplaced and an overreaction.


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## lauraess (Mar 8, 2002)

Oh, so lock me up I usedthe WRONG word to attempt to define This act of puting an ear-ring hole in a young childs ear. Mutilation.







: You can Call it what you want and those words you choose will be helpful in justifying putting HOLEs in EARS , You can Call it cute, Nothing big, just little, Harmless, not permanant, quickly done, Whatever...
The thing that either you choose to not see or truly cant since the argument goes back and forth without anyone budginng or truly answering the question of Altering a young childs body w/o GOOD reason??? It it a good reason to do because it's cute? or is it just perfectly okay to alter an ear cause, hey its just an ear







:
I dont understand how anyone could be so flippant and sarcastic over any part of thier childs body. Its their body. not yours.
this is just hopeless. I guess you cant Open a mind that's tightly closed by it's own ego.


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## H&Hmommy (Aug 14, 2003)

I've chosen not to pierce dd's ears. I remeber when I got mine done ( I was probably 12 or so) that it hurt and burned. I did not want to do this to dd until she could make the decision to get it done herself.

She's very girly and LOVES dresses (I'm more of a tomboy







) and asks about getting it done so that she can wear earrings like some other little girls in her preschool class.

I tell her that when she wants to, that's fine, but be aware that it hurts and they use a needle to do it. She qiuckly backs off and says that maybe, on second thought, she doesn't quite want to do it yet. Maybe when she's mommy's age.:LOL


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

I never thought anything of getting a baby's ears pierced until I read a post on another, now defunct, message board years ago by a woman whose ears were pierced when she was a child and she was pretty upset about it. The same way I would not tattoo a newborn, I would not pierce one's ears. My ears are pierced, I love earrings, but I am not going to assume that my daughter will feel the same way. I've met more and more women lately that do not have pierced ears and do not want them.

Also, the holes do not always close up. The woman I'm speaking of had not worn earrings in years, I cannot remember how long, and the holes were still open. My ears were pierced when I was three and one fell out. I was afraid that it would hurt as bad as it did when they were pierced if my mom put the earring back in, so she just took the other one out. I still have the scars, and it had only been a week when my mom took them out. I had my ears pierced a second time about five years ago and only wore studs in them for about a year. The holes are still open.

I chose to have them pierced again when I was seven, and it was kind of like a rite of passage for me. When I had my ears pierced a second time, I was surprised at how much it hurt. No way would I do that to a baby.

I will say, though, that I'm surprised at how much I want to have my daughter's ears pierced. But they are not my ears to pierce. If she wants them pierced when she is older, I'll have it done at a professional piercing shop with a needle, not with a gun that cannot be properly sterilized.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

One more thing-- it doesn't just sting and it is over. My ears burned for a long time after I got them pierced a second time. They were very tender for several days.


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## sarahbay (Oct 30, 2003)

I am very PRO ear peircing, so you can flame away if you need to , but I think it's cooler than makeup, or Barbies, or those tiny high heels, on the whole feminine body tip.

I love to see a baby girl with her ears peirced! I got my dd's peirced at 9 mo. Yes it was early(I didn't get peirced till 7 yrs old) But you'd really be surprised at how quick and easy it was for her.
The lady who did it was very experienced.

She marked the spot. Peirced one. Bam and the other and I immediatly went nurse poor lil dd and in two minutes or so she was all better. She never cried a bit from it, and I was glad I did it and glad I did it then too.

It was much easier to treat them with HPeroxide at that age, an d no worries that she would pull on them, play with them, or pull them out.

She does not play with Barbies(which i think are way worse than having earings) and does not wear tiny high heels, or have tiny sets of makeup.

I teach her about repecting her body and how wearing expensive outifts or ones that show body parts(bellie shirts) are not good and why, and I let her make up her own mind with the info I give her.

Girl power is great and It's good to know when to draw the line, but there is nothing wrong with being feminine.


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## Lemon Balm (Jan 23, 2002)

My daughters will make that decision for themselves.


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Mothra_
*I will say, though, that I'm surprised at how much I want to have my daughter's ears pierced. But they are not my ears to pierce. If she wants them pierced when she is older, I'll have it done at a professional piercing shop with a needle, not with a gun that cannot be properly sterilized.*
Me too me too! Well except I mean for my ds







I think it would be very cute to see an earring on Orion! But not my body, so hence, not my choice (you know on non health issues).

No, my 12 piercings and 15+ hours of tattooing are NOT mutilation!

Quote:

_from dictionary.com_
mu·ti·late ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mytl-t)
tr.v. mu·ti·lat·ed, mu·ti·lat·ing, mu·ti·lates
To deprive of a limb or an essential part; cripple.
To disfigure by damaging irreparably: mutilate a statue. See Synonyms at batter1.
To make imperfect by excising or altering parts.
I do not believe I am "disfiguring by damaging irreparably" my own body. I LIKE all of my pierings and tattoos. However if you pierced someone who did NOT want a piercing then YES it would be multilation.

And again Tanibani, although I know you said earlier it was just an interesting thing to ponder, it bothers me greatly to again hear "self hatred" is the reason for piercings. How could some psychologist KNOW what it was about for EVERYONE? Are tribal cultures who have been doing tattoos and piercings for centuries all hateful? There must be an awful lot of self hate in our culture to look around at all the people with at least an ear piercing! Yes maybe Alice ****** has dealt with individuals who HAVE gotten piercings because they hate themselves. But not EVERYONE does! If her opinion is piercings/tattoos are ugly or disfiguring well they yes of course she (or anyone with that thinking) wouldn't understand why someone would choose to do that and think "It MUST be because they hate themselves!". However, if you see piercings and tattoos as adornment, as BEAUTIFICATION, then how, or why would you think that its "self hatred"?


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## tabitha (Sep 10, 2002)

it is simply a question of choice.

it is not ok to make a permanent physical alteration to someone who cannot choose for no reason beyond vanity (and yes, just wanting to fit in to some cultural stereotype is vanity)

it wouldnt matter if it were a hole in the ear or grotesque facial tattoo. babies cannot choose.

i am a christian, but i dont believe i own my children. i do think God made them perfect in every way. i would never permanently alter their precious bodies.

you know, the US simply has no place for children's rights. It is sickening. Adults can beat, and cut, and verbally abuse their children, and its "OK" cause the kids are the parents property. It was the same before the US recognized African Americans as equally human- and women- i hope in my heart it is only a matter of time before children are given the same rights as everyone else.

tabitha


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## Ms. Frizzle (Jan 9, 2004)

It's a cruel thing to do to a baby. Period.


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