# I am SO LIVID I cannot even think straight!! (NPR Commentary today)



## Sisyphus

I was driving my son home from school this afternoon, listening to NPR when a commentary came on during the show "All Things Considered". It isn't linkable on their site yet, but go to ATC and you can listen to it yourself.

In this commentary, the woman (!#*(&$#(*) talks about how she and her husband are older parents, read lots of parenting books and ascribe to the "new" way of parenting without spanking. But on a 1200 mile road trip, their three year old son refuses to stop undoing his carseat (um perhaps a 1200 mile road trip was NOT a smart idea??? - my comment) so, when giving him a choice doesn't work, the dad yells at the child that if he doesn't get in his carseat and stay there, he'll spank the kid... of course, since they ascribe to the "new" parenting advice of being consistent, he "HAS" to follow through and SPANKS THE CHILD "... four times, through his pants".... and lo and behold the rest of their trip is a dream.

I almost vomited listening to her in her cutesy little voice give herself a pat on the back for trying the "old" way of "discipline"...

I cannot BELIEVE that NPR would air such garbage, especially when they are so "amazed" and "apalled" at the abuses that took lplace at Abu Ghraib... perhaps we should point out to them that violence against children leads to that sort of thing...

I am just SO upset and angry I know I am not being at ALL coherent or eloquent. I am planning to write a LONG, long letter to them explaining just how deplorable it is for them to air that sort of "defense" of abuse.

Please, I know so many of you are SO much more eloquent than I could ever be. Please listen to the piece for yourself and write to them, explaining how you feel.

Thank you from the bottom of my (abused in childhood) heart.

Lo


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## burritomama

I am with ya lolov!

I just heard it myself on my local affiliate...her smug tone was particularly appalling.

Yeah and the excuse(reasoning?) that he HAD to follow through because he made the threat in the heat of the moment and parents MUST be consistent above all things (even if they're wrong) ...yeah, well, eloquence eludes me too.


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## Evergreen

Yep, I was yelling at the radio right along with you. It was nauseating. HELLO??? Of course a child that age is not going to stay in his carseat the whole time. That was just a plain dumb vacation idea, they could hav eatleast split the trip up more.

Blech I am writing a letter!


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## Mamid

I don't care why the child is climbing out of a car seat or how long (or short) the car trip is - I'd rather spank it than kill it in a car accident.

Hard line, I know, but you have to think of the safety of the child. A spanking (or four) won't kill a child. Undoing the carseat and getting thrown through a windshield will.

I actually got out of an "illegal right turn" because my daughter had started to climb out of her car seat. I had to pull over to put her back in and the cop who caught me, although gave me hell for doing so in court when I fought the ticket, the judge agreed with me. Child safety before an "illegal" right turn. And it was only illegal by maybe 9 minutes.


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## burritomama

I just want to say that I think that's an example of an either/or fallacy - EITHER I spank the child OR kill the child in a car accident.

I think there's more - lots more - options than that.


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## TiredX2

Thank you for saying that burritomom.

Car seat safety is VERY important in our family and we have never resorted to spanking. And this is coming off a 10 day stay in TX when we were traveling almost daily between North Austin and San Antonio (so 3-4 hours daily in the car w/DD & DS).


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## Sisyphus

I agree, burritomama.... While I "get" what the pp was saying, "better to spank then die in an accident"... it's easy to rationalize anything with THAT reasoning... To me, spanking is a lazy response to a challenging situation. I've been tempted on more than one occasion to smack both of my kids (4 and 15 mo) but realize that it was mostly because I was TIRED and at the end of my rope (which is NOT their problem, it's MINE) and I just didn't "feel like" thinking up a better solution... BUT I did... I simply don't see any reason that spanking is a good option... all it teaches the child is to fear the parent, to hide from the parent and to believe that "might makes right"... I'll bet GW was spanked LOL.

In the case of this commentator, her best option would have been to FIND A DIFFERENT VACATION! Rule number one for me is don't put the kid in a position where he feels he HAS to power struggle. A 1200 mile road trip is NOT a necessity (like a drive to the doctor might be, but still would NOT be an excuse to spank)....

Off my soap box for now... glad to know I wasn't the only one who wanted to reach through the radio and talk some sense into that woman!

Lo


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## Arduinna

Um, is this MDC or did get sent to babycenter by accident? Is someone actually posting HERE of all places advocating spanking if the reason is "good enough"

wow

uke


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## pugmadmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolov*
...In the case of this commentator, her best option would have been to FIND A DIFFERENT VACATION! Rule number one for me is don't put the kid in a position where he feels he HAS to power struggle. A 1200 mile road trip is NOT a necessity (like a drive to the doctor might be, but still would NOT be an excuse to spank)....

I don't agree with spanking, *ever*, but I think this is a bit simplistic. My SO is in the military and we regularly drive 1000+ miles so our son can see grandparents/aunts & uncles/cousins. No, he didn't always like being in his carseat, but he always had a great time once we got where we were going. So were we supposed to give up three weeks of family time to avoid the carseat? I don't think that's a good option either. We bought plane tickets when we could but that was not alway an option.

As I said, I am completely anti corporal punishment. However, I do see a difference between spanking _once_ because your child is pushing a saftey limit (ran in the street, climbing out of saftey seat, etc.) and spanking as a parenting philosophy and/or spanking as a part of a pattern of abuse.

I'm going to write a letter of complaint but I think it needs to be very carefully crafted. In my opinion, comparing this man's actions with the Abu Ghraib situation (or implying that spanking a child once in their childhood leads to Abu Ghraib situations) or even with being an abused child is going to alienate more people than it will convince.


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## Greaseball

There are ways to make a trip like that more bearable for a child. Break it up into little pieces; maybe even take a few days and do something fun for the kid in every town you stop in.

"One spanking won't kill" is not a good reason to spank. Hot sauce, pepper and soap won't kill...forcing a child to stand in a corner with his nose touching the wall for an hour won't kill...none of these things are good.

I agree with the poster who said it's lazy.


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## captain optimism

Yes, I also heard that idiotic commentary. I was thinking, "So where in the car where you sitting, lady?" It sounded like the parents were in the front seat and the the little guy was in the back? So of course, if he wanted to get out of his seat, there wasn't any way for a parent to stop him before he got out. "Oh no, look at him defying our parental authority--we will have to pull over again!"

Then again, another question: what discipline book was she reading that left her with such dopey options for dealing with misbehavior? Yes, I've read the "you have a choice, X or Y" thing in the Faber and Mazlish books, but they are pitching that to older children--and also for things about which the child really has a choice!

It sounded like a lot of bad parental choices boxed them in, so that spanking seemed like a better option than what they were trying. Then again, her analysis was "well, it worked." But how does she know it worked? It sounded like it was a traumatic experience for the family and that the child was then quiet. That doesn't mean he isn't going to ever try to test their limits again.

Like I said, I don't know which parenting books she read, but the ones I read didn't say spanking was bad because it was abusive, they said it was bad because it doesn't lead to the desired results. I wonder about the results!


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## zipperump-a-zoomum

I heard half of it then had to turn it off. Revolting.
Kaly


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## pugmadmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
...Then again, her analysis was "well, it worked." But how does she know it worked? ...

Like I said, I don't know which parenting books she read, but the ones I read didn't say spanking was bad because it was abusive, they said it was bad because it doesn't lead to the desired results. I wonder about the results!

See, I think this can be another problem with the anti-spanking literature. The fact is, and I wish it were not so, that spanking _can_ lead to the desired results _in the short term_. This family tried all sorts of things and what worked? Spanking.

However, it only works in the short term as far as achieving desired results (ie stop climbing out of carseat) and it has such long-term negative effects that I don't see how anyone can tout it as a preferred parenting method.

I also agree that it sounds like a lot of bad parenting choices boxed in. Even if they hadn't spanked, the yelling and the threatening is very problematic to me.


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## sunnmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pugmadmama*
The fact is, and I wish it were not so, that spanking _can_ lead to the desired results _in the short term_.

I had to concede this point to my mother at some point in our spanking debate (she thought I should be spanking dd). Yes, it will sometimes work. And it will often work more quickly and easily (time and effort-wise) than other methods of discipline. *But at what cost!* Gosh, smacking my dh might be a faster way of getting him to take out the garbage....should I do it?







:

Hitting children is unacceptable. I did not hear this commentary--sounds infuriating! There are SO many better ways of handling the situation--the first being an attitude shift for the parents. The child is bored, uncomfortable, and tired--and he is telling you that! Help him!!!! For cryin' out loud, don't HIT HIM!!!!









We've done some BIG cartrips, including 17 hours straight in the car with dd when she was still 2. Just stopping for gas! She did fine, mostly because I sat right next to her and made her my #1 priority whenever she was not sleeping (and she only slept 2 hours of the 17







).


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## captain optimism

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pugmadmama*
... it only works in the short term as far as achieving desired results (ie stop climbing out of carseat) and it has such long-term negative effects that I don't see how anyone can tout it as a preferred parenting method.

I also agree that it sounds like a lot of bad parenting choices boxed in. Even if they hadn't spanked, the yelling and the threatening is very problematic to me.

Yes, this is what I meant. In the short term, child stays in car seat. Maybe even in the medium term. This is more relaxing for parents, they aren't worried that he'll get hurt in the car. In the long term, does the child learn self-control, or does he learn that Daddy has a short fuse? Are there going to be escalations to test the new regime? Or is he going to be afraid? Not good! Now parents should be sweating!

Anyway, another problem with this essay that occurred to me: she was saying that this was a parenting technique of their parents. Did their parents use carseats with them when they were three? Because mine didn't--in 1969, it was a seatbelt, not a carseat, for a three year old. My mom, who was a hitter hoo-boy, sat in the back with us if we couldn't behave.


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## HoneymoonBaby

Yay, another super-judgmental, holier-than-thou parenting thread, brought to you by MDC! Now we can all feel Righteous for a little while as we trash the lazy, stupid, child-hating mommies and daddies who don't live up to our impeccable standards.









I *don't* spank, but four swats through the pants to a child's behind is not even approaching Abu Ghraib.







Come on.


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## famousmockngbrd

There is always another option. People choose to spank, they never have to.


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## Greaseball

You know, when I think of holier-than-thou attitudes, I think of those moms who say "I _never_ lose patience with my kids; anyone who does shouldn't have had children" or "I _always_ have the house spotless when dh comes home and I have six kids!"

But saying that spanking is wrong and it's never necessary to do it is the TRUTH!


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## famousmockngbrd

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HoneymoonBaby*
Yay, another super-judgmental, holier-than-thou parenting thread, brought to you by MDC! Now we can all feel Righteous for a little while as we trash the lazy, stupid, child-hating mommies and daddies who don't live up to our impeccable standards.









I don't think spanking parents are lazy, or stupid, or child-hating. I think they are misguided, and wrong.


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## famousmockngbrd

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
But saying that spanking is wrong and it's never necessary to do it is the TRUTH!

Yup









The person who compared it to Abu Ghraib was only trying to point out the irony in condemning one violent act, while supporting another. And that early exposure to violence, especially at the hand of someone who supposedly loves you, opens the door to acceptance of other kinds of violence. Makes sense to me.


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## captain optimism

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HoneymoonBaby*
Yay, another super-judgmental, holier-than-thou parenting thread, brought to you by MDC! Now we can all feel Righteous for a little while as we trash the lazy, stupid, child-hating mommies and daddies who don't live up to our impeccable standards.









I *don't* spank, but four swats through the pants to a child's behind is not even approaching Abu Ghraib.







Come on.

This is a parenting board, so it's not unreasonable that people might discuss parenting choices here, at some point.

Especially the parenting choices of someone who has just publically advocated spanking on the radio. If you listen to the essay, that is what the writer has done. She says, essentially, "I tried your newfangled no-spankin' ways, now I'm goin' back to the ol' woodshed, so yay me."

Four swats through the pants is not approaching torture in prison. Publicly advocating that everyone swat their children's behinds because other methods couldn't possibly work? That's on a slippery slope. I say that because I think to say that spanking was the only thing that worked on a three year old has larger implications--it's an argument that violence is sometimes the only thing that works. Which argument I believe to be dangerous.


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## crazy_eights

I posted this in the GD forum. It is linkable - http://www.npr.org/rundowns/segment.php?wfId=3869119

I just about drove off the road listening to it!

Feedback to: [email protected]


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## sunnmama

I found and listened to the audio.







You can find it here: http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=3869119

I feel like crying, because a commentary like this (on NPR--and from a presumably enlightened and educated and caring mama!) undoes SO much work to change attitudes about hitting children. It just shows that it is not enough say that spanking is wrong and unacceptable--you have to give people a whole toolbox full of workable options. This mama apparently didn't see ANY options other than 1. sit in seat and be quiet or 2. sit in boiling car on side of highway. And hitting him was the only way they could FORCE him to sit in the seat. They bullied him into it, and now they are convinced (and telling the world!) that it was the best choice in that situation







I feel bad for all three of them









Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
to say that spanking was the only thing that worked on a three year old has larger implications--it's an argument that violence is sometimes the only thing that works. Which argument I believe to be dangerous.

Bears repeating.


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## Greaseball

I don't think nonspanking is an impeccable standard. I'm shocked when I hear that anyone still does it, even the most mainstream of parents.


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## Mamid

Quote:

As I said, I am completely anti corporal punishment. However, I do see a difference between spanking once because your child is pushing a saftey limit (ran in the street, climbing out of saftey seat, etc.) and spanking as a parenting philosophy and/or spanking as a part of a pattern of abuse.
I see the same thing too.

And the way that it was describe. Kid kept on getting out. Dad said that you do it again, you get spanked. Kid did it again. Dad followed through with his ultimatum.

If Dad hadn't, his child would have thought "gee.. I can get away with this so I can do it again!" and kept on doing it. No amount of sweet talking or taking priviledges away would have kept that child in that seat. Dad did what he had to in order keep his child safe.

And when you've been in a car accident with your child, you thank your lucky stars they were in a car seat! I can not only see his reasoning, but the need to keep your children safe at all costs. The second accident we were in would have killed DD if she hadn't been properly strapped down. And I wasn't the driver in that one, I was sitting beside her and had bruises from the car seat. The first accident, I watch my 6mo baby girl hit the bar of her car seat (which I found out later was recalled







the bar, not the seat ) but thankfully she wasn't hurt.

A child not properly restrained in a car seat is a fine of about 500$. The funeral for said child would be over 5000$. The parental guilt for not enforcing a safety limit would be unbearable compared to the guilt of spanking the child to enforce it.

Before you criticize the actions of another parent trying to keep their child safe, what would you have done in the same situation? I like the ultimatum method. That gives the child a choice: behave in the way we want or continue to misbehave and your punishments will increase.


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## Greaseball

What would I have done? Still not spanked. Probably yelled, and secured the straps in a way that she could not have undone them. If dh was with me, I would have sat in the back with the kids. My older child is 32 mos and there is no way she could undo her straps. I can barely get them undone.

DD has run into the street and in parking lots and still was not spanked for it. She has picked up matches, gone towards the hot stove, climbed on top of things, and broken things. She was not spanked for any of this. It was our fault as parents for not making these things impossible for her in the first place.


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## Britishmum

"Before you criticize the actions of another parent trying to keep their child safe, what would you have done in the same situation?"

I would have done a host of other things rather than spank my child.

And if I had lost my cool (which is hypothetical in my case, as I have never been tempted even the tiniest bit to hit my children) I certainly would not be telling my story to millions of other people.

I would be feeling terrible, guilty, hopeless........I would be seeking other ways of disciplining in case I ever found myself in a similar situation. But I certainly would not be patting myself on the back and encouraging other parents to start hitting their children too.....









(Edited to add that I have been in this position only recently - driving 5000 miles with a one year old and three year old. I fed them too many snacks, they watched too many videos, I sang stupid songs until my head hurt, I gave in and fed them candy and crisps, which I've never done before, I stopped regularly to eat at awful diners and to run around in rest areas when I'd have rather been getting some miles under our belt ..............but I did not once think of hitting them. The choice to drive 5000 miles was mine, not theirs. It was my job to ensure that we got through it as best we could, but hitting my children because of my decision to put them in the car was not an option.)


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## BlueBelle

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamid*
Before you criticize the actions of another parent trying to keep their child safe, what would you have done in the same situation?

Moved to the back seat to make sure that the child wasn't so far away I couldn't make sure that the belt was buckled. Then, I'd have whipped out something to entertain the tyke so that he didn't get so bored that he started to play with his carseat belts again.

Nobody's perfect, that's true enough, but there are a whole list of better options than resorting to violence against a kid who's just sitting in a seat, bored to tears, and finds that if he plays with his belt, not only can he get out, but it gets an AMAZING reaction from his folks. Like another poster said, it might yield faster garbage hauling results if I spanked my husband when he didn't do it (although, he'd see it in a sexual sense, not as violence....the big goofball), but would it be right for me to resort to spanking him? If it's not right for me to spank my husband to get him to do what I want, why is it right for me to spank my child?

This is a kid we're talking about. You can't just tell him "You know, son, you need to stay in your carseat so that you don't get hurt in an accident." Well, you can say that, but how long is the child going to retain that, and how much of a grasp on what "hurt in an accident" means do they have? Kids get bored if they sit in one place too long--that's just normal behavior for kids! So you to plan ahead for that and be sure you're ready to distract them from doing things like getting out of their carseat. That's the proactive part of parenting--and it's much easier and more pleasant than just being reactionary, IMO.


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## NocturnalDaze

I was just curious to know if the "hot saucing childrens tongues" thread is also considered judgemental and holier-than-thou?

Abuse is abuse. If my husband hit me there would me no doubt his action would be called abusive. How is it OK for anyone to justify hitting a small defenseless child for *ANY* reason????

Disgusting.

Call me judgemental..I don't mind a bit.

Kim


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## Mamid

My 2yo has been able to undo his chest strap for 3 months now. It took us several weeks, but we got him to stop. He's now trying to figure out his crotch strap. Once he does that, the car seat is worthless unless we train him not to do it.

I'm not saying the parent should abuse the child. I'm saying that the parent chose to keep his child from dying. And who knows - there may have been other reasons why child couldn't be moved. Air bags in the front seat? Another child in the seat beside him?

Its basically what's worse: death or a spanking?

I pick death.


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## Darrel

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HoneymoonBaby*
Yay, another super-judgmental, holier-than-thou parenting thread, brought to you by MDC! Now we can all feel Righteous for a little while as we trash the lazy, stupid, child-hating mommies and daddies who don't live up to our impeccable standards.









I *don't* spank, but four swats through the pants to a child's behind is not even approaching Abu Ghraib.







Come on.


Yeah I see that alot ) .. hehe your post made me chuckle . Holier than thou ,,lolol .. People will be people


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## simonee

If the dad cared so much about following through and being consistent, why did he first give the kid a choice "that didn't work"? What does he mean,the kid chose the one the dad didn't like? Maybe dad has something to learn about offering choices in a consistent manner.

ANd spare me the cheap "oh another self-righteous thread from the perfect mdc mamas" argument. Yes, another one, because some people not only spank but defend spanking as a way to impose the parent's will on national radio. Many more of these threads are needed, I guess. Is any criticism of abusive parenting styles now "holier than thou"? Wow. Maybe mdc could just merge with babycenter, eh?


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## NocturnalDaze

When my child is able to get out of her seat I think I will perhaps choose.......Zip Ties.

Maybe I will turn the buckle around so she can't get at it.

Maybe I will take something (like a coin) and secure it over the button with electrical tape so she can't push it.

Spanking is just a way for people who are not creative to get out their frustrations. Little *people* have to suffer as a result.

Kim


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## Mamid

2yo ds can undo his stroller buckle even when it is turned around. So I've taken to using my small metis sash to tying him in. It goes over the two ends of the stroller seat belt.

He still tries to get out.

So even turning around doesn't work. And with some car seats, if you turn the buckle around, you can't buckle the kid in.


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## simonee

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamid*
2yo ds can undo his stroller buckle even when it is turned around. So I've taken to using my small metis sash to tying him in. It goes over the two ends of the stroller seat belt.

He still tries to get out.

So even turning around doesn't work. And with some car seats, if you turn the buckle around, you can't buckle the kid in.

why can't he unbuckle in the stroller? In my stroller there's no real danger

and maybe buy/swap for another car seat?


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## asherah

I heard the commentary too, and could not imagine why NPR would choose to run something so wretched, unless they simply wanted to generate some controversy. Which is entirely possible.

I hated the woman's smug, knowing tone. I thought she sounded like she was trying to ease her guilt by justifying herself and rationalizing her behavior on the radio.

I kept wanting to scream "you just don't get it!"

Of course spanking "works" by stopping a behavior in the short term. Any bully or abuser knows they can force someone else to change his or her behavior by inflicting pain.
That's what spanking is.. forcing a child to change his or her behavior by inflicting pain. All it teaches a child is that
bigger people can enforce their will on littler people by hurting them.

This is not effective parenting. This does not create trust between parent and child. This does not teach a child anything useful. This is not loving or caring. And it is NEVER the only alternative. Spanking vs. Death? Give me a BREAK. Like those are EVER the only two choices.

I don't write letters or complain because I know media organizations love getting those letters. They think it means they pushed some buttons and touched on a hot topic. They thrive on that. That's why they read those letters on the air, then pat themselves on the back for tuning in to their listeners or viewers.

I am disgusted NPR ran that. But then again, I am disgusted by how pregnancy/birthing/parenting are portrayed in the media in general. I rarely hear anything truly insightful. Most reporting on these issues is full of misinformation. So this commentary advocating violence against children is pretty much par for the course.


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## Mamid

Quote:


Originally Posted by *simonee*
why can't he unbuckle in the stroller? In my stroller there's no real danger

and maybe buy/swap for another car seat?

because he usually does it when I'm walking with him in it. Near busy streets. But he also does it up for me too so that's ok.

so, because I want to keep him from running - he's a sprinter, I use something else to make sure the two ends can't come apart.

I'm not too worried about the car seat. He no longer fights us going into it so that's good.

"scuse me while I deal with what might be labour for the next two days.


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## simonee

whooohoooo Mamid have a happy birth!!!!!!!!!


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## aussiemum

Mamid- wishing you a speedy & wonderful birth...








:

Now, off to listen to the program if I can manage to find it


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## aussiemum

Okay, I listened to the story......










THAT was not what I expected. I'm shocked that NPR would run a commentary like this. I'm disappointed. I'm ........ stunned by how casually this woman ..... advocates that the situation that happened in their car on summer holidays is somehow a _good_ thing!!!

.................

I HAVE yelled at my kids in the car. I've been on long miserable road trips with my kids (well, moments of it anyway) & been an absolute cow to my entire family at times....... & I've never once hit them on those trips. Granted, I've never had a very persistent unbuckler for a kid, maybe I scared mine half to death with gory car crash stories, but surely there is a better way..... I'm gobsmacked.

I don't want to give a false impression, I know the other side too, and I have spanked my kids a few times, in anger, in moments where I've lost it. Not four times deliberately like this situation at hand, but nonetheless Britishmum has it absolutely right here......

Quote:

I would be feeling terrible, guilty, hopeless........I would be seeking other ways of disciplining in case I ever found myself in a similar situation. But I certainly would not be patting myself on the back and encouraging other parents to start hitting their children too.....
Too right there......







Sure as hell ain't bragging about it. If I made a threat to my kids like the one the father in the car made to his son, I would stop the escalation, admit to my child that what I have said is wrong, & say that I need five minutes to think about it. Close the door (windows down!) & go stand by the boot of the car...... & just stand, & take a deep breath (okay, smoke a cigarette







: ), & figure out a better way to deal with the situation. If you really can't stop the car in a safe place, I would unbuckle myself & move to the back & fix the problem (assuming a driver of course!). Then, next safe place to pull over, my kids are out of the car for a good talking to, as they say. WHich is probably where the gory car crash stories come into play........ not too gory, of course, just very, very serious.........

It's almost like I can't believe that story even aired.......


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## cumulus

The NPR thing, I think, fits into a growing attitude wherein children are cute and all but basically a bother for which one has to find workarounds. Or as the drivers typify and as Bill Cosby said, "Parents are not quite interested in justice, they are interested in quiet."


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## Rhonwyn

We had an unbuckler. I never spanked her once for doing it. If my husband and I were both in the car, then one of us sat in the back with her. If it was a long trip, I had prizes ready for good behavior. If I was alone, I would pick out something for her to look forward to at the end of the trip if she stayed in her seat. Sometimes I had to pull over and wait. Sometimes I had to go home.

I still don't understand why one of the parents didn't move to the back!


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## magnoliablue

When my oldest ds was just 3 and dd just 1, my former mil and I took a 12 hour ride to Ohio to visit my ex, who was working in Ohio at the time. It was a LLLLLOOOOONNNGGG 12 hour ride, spent listening to the Lion King repeatedly for the duration of the trip. My ds attempted to "break free" several times because he was "tired of my seat,mama" and whenever he got antsy, we pulled over and took a break. Everyone streched their legs, got some fresh air, and then we got back on the road again. Spanking would not have solved this issue in the least, nor do I feel it ever solves any situation ever.

When dd was about 3, she hated the carseat and did everything she could to get out. My mom and I went to the store and bought the most Houdini proof carseat made, just to keep her from unbuckling herself. That and my firm "The car can't go till we are all buckled up, so this means we will never get to the ___(playground,zoo, library,store, whatever) kept her in. Thankfully with my youngest, the carseat has never been an issue.

I just can't believe NPR would air something like this, and I can't justify the spanking is better than dying theory as an acceptable excuse for this father to resort to this. There are so many better ways to deal with this than that.


----------



## Peppermint

I heard it too. The thing is, these parents spanked the child b/c "they had to follow through" (with something said in anger), not b/c they felt that a spanking or death were the only 2 options. And----YEE Freakin Ha! IT WORKED! Well, now they know what to do next time I guess







.

Maybe this is a judgemental "hollier than thou" thread- but I am standing firmly with the PP's who admit to not always making the best discipline choices ourselves, but not publicly advocating the nasty things we may have done, let alone speaking of them without shame. If I had done that, I would've been ashamed of myself.

And- "it worked"







, I can't even explain how many ways that does NOT justify it, I am sure lots of things would've "worked" it is just that they chose to hurt their child, and now, since "it worked", sounds to me like they will #1- do it again, and #2- advocate it to others







.


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## Greaseball

If my kid could someday unbuckle, and would not stop no matter what, and even using straps and tape on the buckle did not work, I'd just stop taking her anywhere in the car. Yes, it would be really inconvenient, but what part of parenting isn't?

We live in a small town, so walking everywhere isn't unreasonable. Although then I guess she would undo the stroller buckle and jump out into the street, defying my parental authority, all because I never spank.







:LOL

Another thing I don't understand is the "consistency" approach. I think it's better to admit that you were wrong than to follow through on an assault just because you said you were going to do it. Why not just say "Sorry son, I threatened you with violence and that was wrong. We don't resort to violence in this family."


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## FoxintheSnow

I heard that yesterday on NPR while driving to the library. The story sickened me, but Im not surprised that it was on All Things Considered-as the namesuggests they consider all things.


----------



## pugmadmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
If my kid could someday unbuckle, and would not stop no matter what, and even using straps and tape on the buckle did not work, I'd just stop taking her anywhere in the car. Yes, it would be really inconvenient, but what part of parenting isn't?...

With ideas like "buy another car seat" and "stop taking your child in the car", it sounds like the assumption is that everyone has the money/freedom to do that. Sometimes it's not matter of inconvenience, it's a matter of paying the bills. If you have to drive your kid to daycare so you can work, then what? If you can't afford another carseat, then what?

I think it's much more persuasive to offer solutions to the problem of a child who _must_ ride in the car and who is a carseat Houdini. When both of those things are true, then what do you do? Keep in mind there is only so much doctoring you can do to the straps (those straps are designed to work as installed.) Some people have come up with creative solutions on how to deal with that reality and I think that's the most effective way to approach this issue.


----------



## sunnmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
. I think it's better to admit that you were wrong than to follow through on an assault just because you said you were going to do it. Why not just say "Sorry son, I threatened you with violence and that was wrong. We don't resort to violence in this family."

And this would, most importantly, *model* appropriate behavior in 2 ways: we don't hit in our family, and this is how you admit you were wrong when you make a poor choice (instead of stubbornly sticking to something you regret saying in the heat of the moment).

I really think that this commentary is harmful. It seems to mock ideas like "consistency" and "choices" and "natural consequences". NPR received my (brief and gentle) email last night


----------



## sunnmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pugmadmama*
Some people have come up with creative solutions on how to deal with that reality and I think that's the most effective way to approach this issue.

That was my approach in my email, although my solutions may not be the most creative. Basically, entertain the child (and we've done a few 1000+ mile trips with our dd, so I've got a million ways to entertain a child in the car--but they all take more energy and effort that delivering a slap!)


----------



## simonee

I view "buy another car seat" as a creative solution







Not having any money myself, I would work to find a trade deal with someone









I think creativity can be defined in many ways. Finding a way to distract HOudini is no more or less creative than getting up 20 mins earlier to sling toddler to day care (good exercise for mama too) or to find an mdc mama to exchange the car seat with. The point is that once spanking/hitting/physical abuse is NOT an option at all, solutions will emerge; as long as it's there as an "emergency" option, those other solutions might appear unrealistic.

I'm just really stuck on the question what the choice was that the child didn't deal with in the desired way. I can't get NPR here ~ could someone tell me what happened before the spanking? I just cannot imagine how the dad could have been consistent when faced with the "choice that didn't work." Either the options were bad (dad's fault) or the child chose the option dad didn't like (dad's being inconsistent). tia


----------



## Mamid

nope. nada. false alarm.























what really gets me is my midwife doesn't believe me when I tell her over and over again that my water never broke for my two previous births during "early labour" so she can't use that for a guage.

Which means I have to find the pic of the bag hanging out of me for DD's birth. With DS, it broke about 10 minutes before I had him.

She and her trainee checked me out. Everything's going good, but I'm just a "fingertip" or 2cm. Which, according to my two previous births, could be 4-6 days before I go.

We were hoping I wasn't in true labour so we could go get the rest of the birthing supplies first. So, we're kinda glad. I wouldn't want to have to do that amount of laundry from improvising.

She told me to use the "old midwife's remedy" of a shot of whiskey after all the other relaxers didn't work (baths, etc). Problem is, I had to take it so late (or early in the morning 6am) that even though I got some sleep, I'm now hungover. I have a low tolerance for alcohol, but a shot of whiskey making me hungover? That's ridiculous.

Honestly, I prefer the hangover to the false labour. I'm still having them but they aren't as "urgent" or intense.

Now, back to your regular thread of "you said *WHAT??????*"


----------



## Greaseball

I think any carseat that can be undone by a child should be recalled.


----------



## Mamid

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
I think any carseat that can be undone by a child should be recalled.

Then every seat on the market currently would be recalled.

Hell, DS can get through and break "child locks" and other "child protection devices" and has been able to for months. Should I take them back to the store because they "don't work?"

Nope, because most of them either slow him down or we had to improvise better ones ourselves. Elastic bands work wonders.

But recalling the carseats? Or having parents buy new ones because the kids can get out of the ones currently on the market? That's just unrealistic thinking. Many parents are lucky to have a car let alone a car seat.


----------



## pugmadmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *simonee*
I view "buy another car seat" as a creative solution







Not having any money myself, I would work to find a trade deal with someone







...

I would never put my child in a carseat I got in a trade for the same reason I won't wear, or put my child in, someone elses bike helmet or life jacket. All three of those things can have major, unseen damage that renders them near useless in an accident. I'm the only person I trust to keep those things maintained properly and in good working order.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *simonee*
...I think creativity can be defined in many ways. Finding a way to distract HOudini is no more or less creative than getting up 20 mins earlier to sling toddler to day care (good exercise for mama too) or to find an mdc mama to exchange the car seat with. The point is that once spanking/hitting/physical abuse is NOT an option at all, solutions will emerge;...

What percentage of Americans sling their children in the first place? And what percentage live within a 20 minute walk of their daycare? I'm guessing the percentage on both of those is very, very low.

I absolutely agree that once corporal punishment is not an option, other solutions emerge. But suggesting people trade carseats or sling their kids to daycare is *not* going to be percieved as a more viable options than spanking for the average American parents. The average MDC Mama, yes, but most of us are already anti-spanking and what good does preaching to the choir do?


----------



## Greaseball

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamid*
Then every seat on the market currently would be recalled.

Except mine. Apparently I own the only carseat in the world that is impossible for a child to undo, and takes a few minutes for an adult, and it only cost $25!









And I don't believe for a minute that your dc can break a "child lock," unless you have a seriously defective car.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamid*
But recalling the carseats? Or having parents buy new ones because the kids can get out of the ones currently on the market? That's just unrealistic thinking. Many parents are lucky to have a car let alone a car seat.

Sounds more realistic than spanking. What do parents do when the spanking is no longer effective? Oh, that's right - they just spank more!


----------



## captain optimism

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamid*
Then every seat on the market currently would be recalled.

Hell, DS can get through and break "child locks" and other "child protection devices" and has been able to for months. Should I take them back to the store because they "don't work?"

Nope, because most of them either slow him down or we had to improvise better ones ourselves. Elastic bands work wonders.

But recalling the carseats? Or having parents buy new ones because the kids can get out of the ones currently on the market? That's just unrealistic thinking. Many parents are lucky to have a car let alone a car seat.

Mamid, how are you doing? Aren't you in labor?

Your son sounds like he is exceptionally intelligent. If I were in your shoes, I would do the elastic bands thing, or I would offer other distractions. My son has what we call Mysterious Objects of Desire (MODs.) We reserve them for diapering or phone conversations. They include calculators, remote controls, telephones (especially the cell phone, it lights up) keys, spill-proof bubbles, jars of things that shake and rattle--like spices--and books, catalogues, magazines. I don't know how well these work with a two year old though.

If you heard the NPR article, you would understand that the essayist does not discuss the use of distractions, sitting next to the baby in the back seat, or any other ideas along these lines. She really did seem to be _advocating_ spanking and _denigrating_ gentle discipline approaches. If she was desperate, it wasn't because of the exceptional gifts of her child, it was because she boxed herself into a corner.


----------



## Kam

Yes, I agree, the commentator was advocating spanking. It was expressed as though she'd had an epiphany that spanking was the right thing to do and as though she was then spreading the word, "Spanking is effective. That new-fangled, new-age method of gentle discipline doesn't work." Scary stuff.

Two things really bothered me that haven't been mentioned here:

She begins the whole scenario with "The problem was our three-year-old was getting too wild," or something to that effect.
She had to cover her eyes while her husband spanked the child.
I think this is what really got to me. She considers the problem to rest in her child, and then can't even stand up for him when she feels he is being wronged. It is outrageous that she would want to publish evidence of what little strength and protection she is able to offer her children.

I understand that NPR and other media like to push our buttons, but I think I will write a letter. It shouldn't have been aired.

warmly,
Kam, mamamama! to Meg


----------



## Mamid

No, I'm not in labour at the moment... see my previous post. Which is good because that has given us enough time to get the rest of the birth supplies we need when I get my cheque today. I did NOT want to have to do that amount of laundry from improvising using blankets, towels and receiving blankets. So we have our list and are going to go get the stuff in about 2-4 hrs when the mail comes. Gotta love being on the Wet Coast.









Anyway...

Quote:

I would never put my child in a carseat I got in a trade for the same reason I won't wear, or put my child in, someone elses bike helmet or life jacket. All three of those things can have major, unseen damage that renders them near useless in an accident. I'm the only person I trust to keep those things maintained properly and in good working order.
Same reason why I am very leary about second hand child things. Strollers, cribs, swings, carriers and car seats HAVE to be new for me to use them. New means warrantee. New also means that someone else hasn't destroyed them first. New also means that they haven't been in a car accident (for a car seat) or put together from random pieces (other stuff) or so old that they are safety hazards. I had to tell this one woman on Ovusoft to get rid of her crib because it was the old "hanging bed" style where if the baby bounced, it could collapse and kill the baby.

So, instead of buying things second hand for bun - stuff that was lost during the move - we are trying to buy them new or get them from people who bought them new and we know who they are. The car seat is second hand but since it was DS's car seat, I'm not worried about it. I know its history. I got offered a free one by a GF and when she told me she used it for her now 11 year old and it was also used by her 15 year old nephew, I kindly but politely refused for obvious reasons.

New means there isn't hidden damage. New means Warrantee. New means CSA approved. CSA = Canadian Standards Agency. Its a federal program/whatever that purposely goes out and destroys items used in the home or in the car to prove they are or aren't safe.

No, DS has not gotten past child car door locks. He has gotten past appliance and cupboard locks. We've had to replace the fridge one twice and when he broke it right off the wall, we decided to give up. Baby gates are just something for him to climb over. Thankfully he hasn't figured out the door knob ones yet. *evilgrin* Even his daycare has said that they have to watch him because he gets past their safety devices. Its really scary picking him up from daycare and as I get to the fence, he climbs it so he's eye to eye with me and he's been doing that since he got there!


----------



## LoveBeads

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pugmadmama*
As I said, I am completely anti corporal punishment. However, I do see a difference between spanking _once_ because your child is pushing a saftey limit (ran in the street, climbing out of saftey seat, etc.) and spanking as a parenting philosophy and/or spanking as a part of a pattern of abuse.



I have an idea: why don't the people use duct tape on the child's wrists next time so he can't reach the buckle?

Okay, sounds outrageous. But that's my point: it a particular action is not within your realm of possibility, it sounds outrageous. Spanking is not within my realm. Using duct tape is (hopefully) not within most people's realm so it sounds outrageous. If it is something that *occurs* to you as a possible course of action, then it is part of your parenting philosophy. In this case, the people were not acting impulsively - they threatened, they pulled the car over, they got the kid out of the car, and they spanked him 4 (four) times. This was not a reflex because their kid ran out in the street.

You cannot subscribe 100% to the philosophy of gentle discipline and spank. The two are mutually exclusive. That doesn't mean that someone who practices GD won't ever slip - slips are forgivable, but it means that it exists somewhere within someone's realm of possibility.

I would not necessarily agree that spanking is always abusive, but I will go to my grave believing that it is always wrong.

I have a simple philosophy - I treat my DD the exact same way I would treat any human being on the planet (well, except for the frequent hugs and kisses) - with dignity, respect and lovingkindness. I doubt that these folks would spank the neighbor's kid if he was in their car and refused to buckle up - they would have found other ways to deal with it.

And that's all I have to say about that....


----------



## Sisyphus

WOW!! You all are SO Eloquent!!!!!!!!!

Thank you for saying, MUCH BETTER THAN I, all of the things that I was thinking and feeling about that commentary.

I just had such a visceral reaction that I had to come here and share it with people I figured would understand.

I'm so glad there are so many people who do not believe that "minor" violence against children is OK and that spanking is NEVER the right solution. I know none of us is perfect, and I don't think any of us purport to be, but knowing that others struggle with this, yet have the same resolve to NEVER repeat this behavior helps me immensely in my struggle. When I feel like I'm going to lose it, I can remember that there are a MILLION other options... including just shutting my mouth









I'm proud to be associated with all of you free thinking, disagreeing in an agreeable way people.

Lo


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## maya44

I am one tough mama (especially next to some here) BUT I have never spanked, will never spank. It is absolutely never necessary. Maybe these NPR people don't realize there is something in between letting your child do whatever they want even if it endangers their safety and spanking. They kind of sounded like idiots to me!

In the NPR situation it is possible I would have yelled, but I think I just would have been really stern and sat in the back seat with my child.


----------



## zipperump-a-zoomum

Ya know, I make a ton of mistakes as a parent. Sometimes I do downright crappy, crappy things. But I don't go on NPR and do a commentary justifying my mistake. So, yes, I am judging this mama- not because of the spanking, we all make mistakes- but for going on air and recommending others try it.
Kaly


----------



## pugmadmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
Except mine. Apparently I own the only carseat in the world that is impossible for a child to undo, and takes a few minutes for an adult, and it only cost $25! ...

How do you know it's "impossible" for a child to undo? Just because your child can't undo it doesn't mean another child couldn't. My son never figured out how to undo his carseat, I would have described it as basically "impossible" to undo. My friend's child, who was a year younger than my son, figured out how to undo the very same seat in less time than it took his mother to get him into it.

There is no completely childproof carseat. If there were, they makers of it would be advertising the heck out of it.


----------



## pugmadmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads*
...You cannot subscribe 100% to the philosophy of gentle discipline and spank. The two are mutually exclusive. That doesn't mean that someone who practices GD won't ever slip - slips are forgivable, but it means that it exists somewhere within someone's realm of possibility...

I'm confused, did this woman ever say she was subscribing "100% to the philosophy of gentle discipline?" Where did that come from?

I know a lot of people who think that Gentle Discipline is code for "wild children" but who also don't spank. The two are not nessicarily connected.

I think spanking is wrong no matter what your parenting philosophy. I don't need someone to committ to GD, I just need them to stop hitting their child.


----------



## wildbozmommy

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HoneymoonBaby*
Yay, another super-judgmental, holier-than-thou parenting thread, brought to you by MDC! Now we can all feel Righteous for a little while as we trash the lazy, stupid, child-hating mommies and daddies who don't live up to our impeccable standards.









I *don't* spank, but four swats through the pants to a child's behind is not even approaching Abu Ghraib.







Come on.

Right on, HoneymoonBaby. (and I just spent a week over at crosswalk . com pleading with the parents over there to consider NOT hitting their children for every infraction!!!)

Let's consider a little moderation here, please. Getting out of a carseat (how old was this child?) is a VERY serious offense. Yes, the parents were idiotic in trying to drive that distance with a small child, but sometimes...sometimes... you have to try a different tactic with something as life-threateningly serious as getting out of a carseat. Hey, I've BTDT. My boys are older and they were expert escape artists.


----------



## sunnmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wildbozmommy*
Let's consider a little moderation here, please. .

But this is MotheringDotCommune....so no moderation necessary







Mothering Magazine does not advocate parenting with violence at any time, for any reason.


----------



## Evergreen

I still don't see what is judgmental about this thread. the woman did not say, "Dh spanked my son in anger today, and I feel badly for it. " She basically said, "We spanked our son, it was a good thing, so haha all you new age parents, it works!!!!!"

Also, nobody is saying it is not serious for a child to get out of the carseat, in fact they have all offered very good alternatives.

I have a short fuse I have been tempted to hit, heck I have broken down and done it. When I felt badly for doing so, I got nothing but support and help from other MDC members. The point is, though, this mother is soooo freakin smug about her awesome newfound parenting technique that she went on national radio (complete with her name and her son's name) to brag about it.

Yeah, she sounds like a real winner (sorry was that too judgmental?)


----------



## wildbozmommy

Not hearing the show on NPR, I cannot comment on the tone of the speaker. However.... this is just another one of those hot-button issues that divides US versus THEM as parents, and (as this thread proves) as people. It's never, "yes, I have spanked my child, how has he or she turned out as a person now that he or she is a grown up" or "no, I have not spanked my child ever, how has he or she turned out now that he or she is a grown up", or, "wow - so many people have so many *different* ways of doing things, how have these different ways affected the ultimate outcome?"

Of course, that kind of discussion would be boring, wouldn't it? Sure, there are extremes on all sides of every issue we can discuss among ourselves as parents. Why do we think it is up to us to judge everyone else's methods of doing things?

It's not.

There are shades of gray here. There is parenting that does not have much in the way of discipline and there is abusive parenting. I really don't believe that spanking a child for unbuckling a car seat is on either end of these extremes.


----------



## Peppermint

The thing is this is MDC, this is about "extremes" in a way (which is sad IMO), not "parenting that doesn't have much in the way of discipline", but parenting that works VERY hard at loving, gentle, respectful discipline. MDC is an "extreme" place in that (sadly), that is why we have these discussions and not the kind you are talking about. There are other message boards which focus on "letting everyone do things their own way so long as the kids turn out "well"."


----------



## asherah

This is a woman who did a commentary on the RADIO.

I am all for being careful about judgmentalism.. but when you put stuff out in the media for public consumption. particularly stuff that emotionally charged... people are going to respond.

And my response is that what she said was a crock of [email protected],


----------



## Greaseball

Every day, I see adults who run out into the street and expect all the cars to stop. Should they be smacked? Oh, wait - that's ILLEGAL!

I actually did not start wearing a seatbelt as an adult until I was pregnant. I guess if all my traveling companions had just hit me, I'd have started wearing one sooner!


----------



## Rhonwyn

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wildbozmommy*
Not hearing the show on NPR, I cannot comment on the tone of the speaker. However.... this is just another one of those hot-button issues that divides US versus THEM as parents, and (as this thread proves) as people. It's never, "yes, I have spanked my child, how has he or she turned out as a person now that he or she is a grown up" or "no, I have not spanked my child ever, how has he or she turned out now that he or she is a grown up", or, "wow - so many people have so many *different* ways of doing things, how have these different ways affected the ultimate outcome?"

Of course, that kind of discussion would be boring, wouldn't it? Sure, there are extremes on all sides of every issue we can discuss among ourselves as parents. Why do we think it is up to us to judge everyone else's methods of doing things?

It's not.

There are shades of gray here. There is parenting that does not have much in the way of discipline and there is abusive parenting. I really don't believe that spanking a child for unbuckling a car seat is on either end of these extremes.

I think you need to go to the Gentle Discipline board and read the 8 myths about spanking. Hello! This Mothering.com! It is all about AP parenting and being an activist about Gentle Discipline, Breastfeeding, etc. If you want shades of gray on spanking then you are on the wrong board.

I think it is also telling that you haven't even listened to the piece on NPR. The discussion is about that commentary not spanking in general.


----------



## polka hop

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wildbozmommy*
Not hearing the show on NPR, I cannot comment on the tone of the speaker. However.... this is just another one of those hot-button issues that divides US versus THEM as parents, and (as this thread proves) as people. It's never, "yes, I have spanked my child, how has he or she turned out as a person now that he or she is a grown up" or "no, I have not spanked my child ever, how has he or she turned out now that he or she is a grown up", or, "wow - so many people have so many *different* ways of doing things, how have these different ways affected the ultimate outcome?"

The ultimate outcome is not the issue here. Even if spanking were the most effective method of discipline ever devised, it's still disrespectful and violent. That doesn't change based on who's doing it or for what reason.

Would you be arguing this strongly for moderation if the man had hit his wife instead of his son?


----------



## sunnmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wildbozmommy*
Why do we think it is up to us to judge everyone else's methods of doing things?

Because children can not protect themselves from violence. It is up to us to advocate for those who can not protect themselves.

In some cultures it is legal to hit your spouse, your parent....In the US, we judge that--do you think we should not? In the US it is legal to hit your child....here at MDC, we judge that. We advocate for children, for nonviolent parenting--and condemn family violence.


----------



## TiredX2

Hitting is wrong.

Let me repeat this again:
Hitting is wrong.

Snapping and regreting it is one thing, advocating it is quite another. Being *proud* of your discovery and advocating it on National radio, is yet another.

There *are* certain lines in the sand I am willing to draw and physical violence towards children is one of them I cannot support the crossing of.


----------



## Greaseball

My dh used to make so many stupid mistakes while driving. And I broke him of that habit by crying every time he did it, not by hitting him! :LOL

But imagine if I had hit him for running a red light or for letting his road rage get out of control. He outweighs me by about 100 lbs, but if I posted here that I slapped him and he never screwed up again, or went on a talk show and bragged about it, I bet everyone would judge me and want to put me in jail.


----------



## TiredX2

Quote:

He outweighs me by about 100 lbs, but if I posted here that I slapped him and he never screwed up again, or went on a talk show and bragged about it, I bet everyone would judge me and want to put me in jail.
Maybe. I'm betting you'd get a book deal out of it, though.


----------



## BunnysMomma

I do not think that spanking always = abuse, but I do think it was in poor taste of NPR to air that commentary, simply because the weight of current reserach shows that spanking is not an effective discipline strategy.

I was also irritated by the woman's tone of voice. Her mocking "Dear, you have a choice" tone and her "We've made a fabulous discovery and are much more enlightened than you so-called enlightened parents" tone sapped her commentary of any thoughtfulness or credibility that it could have mustered had it been an honest look into the situation and what could have been, rather than a rooster crow of victory over her child.

However, I find some of the "creative" ideas silly, too. Sling your kid to daycare? Never go on vacation simply because your child doesn't like the carseat (regardless of how much fun your child might have vacationing in general)? NEVER go ANYWHERE in the car with your child? Yes, parenting is hard and you have to make sacrifices, but you still have to live a reasonably normal life, too. If I felt I could never go anywhere in the car with my child because he or she hated the car seat, I wouldn't feel like I was making a noble sacrifice for my child, I would feel like I was a prisoner.

Wilma


----------



## Mamid

Quote:

However, I find some of the "creative" ideas silly, too. Sling your kid to daycare? Never go on vacation simply because your child doesn't like the carseat (regardless of how much fun your child might have vacationing in general)? NEVER go ANYWHERE in the car with your child? Yes, parenting is hard and you have to make sacrifices, but you still have to live a reasonably normal life, too. _If I felt I could never go anywhere in the car with my child because he or she hated the car seat, I wouldn't feel like I was making a noble sacrifice for my child, I would feel like I was a prisoner._
ITA!

How can you be an effective parent when you are a prisoner in your own home because you can't go anywhere?

Isolate yourself and your children in your home and CPS will come knocking and insist that your child be socialized - whether you like it or not. Hiding in one's home is not a solution and will cause more problems than it fixes.

Not being able to go anywhere is unrealistic. How are you going to get groceries? Or get the child to/from school/doctors/church/relatives/friends/etc? How are you as a parent going to have a life outside of your children?

Children need firm boundaries. Parents need both GD as well as other forms of discipline available to use. They need to be able to say to the kid "you crossed the line and now you will pay for the infraction" and then follow through with the punishment.

That's how children get away with "murder." Parents say to them "you do X one more time and Y will happen." Child does X, but parents don't follow through with Y or refuse to hold a united front when it comes to both X and Y. Child does X and Y doesn't occur so child learns that there is no natural consequence to X when X happens. Y doesn't have to be spanking, but there should be a specific consequence to an action and that consequence needs to be consistant.

It could be "You do X one more time and your butt's going to be red" or it could be "or you're going to loose priviledge A" or making them do a chore they hate, or loose an activity they love, or a toy they prize. Whatever it is, there needs to be consistant punishment. IMO, Spanking is the parental nuke of discipline. Pulled out rarely, available for use, but when used, applied with love.

Sure, distracting the child works - to a point. So does adding extra ties to keep the kid in, but when it comes to a car seat, you have literally choose between the child's life or emotional wellbeing. We know what a spanking _may_ do. We know what _will_ happen to an unrestrained child in a car accident.

I ask again: what's worse - a red butt or a dead child?

Me? I've already burried one child. I have no intention of burying a second.


----------



## Greaseball

Thank you, Babycenter and Debi Pearl. Thanks for letting me see that I will surely kill my child (or at the very least, raise a hardcore criminal) since I don't spank, not ever, not even when they run in the street. I don't "make them do chores they hate" either. Chores should not be punishment, but that's another topic...

Thanks for letting me see that sacrifices are unrealistic - after all, why stay home with the kid when I could be out vacationing? Gotta work on my tan!

How is it any GD children are still alive and out of jail?

But on a more serious note...

Maybe you don't realize that literally reddening a child's skin is illegal in some states. Maybe it's not illegal in your state, but in mine it is illegal to leave a lasting redness, though it is legal to hit with hands and objects. I'm surprised that anyone who has had such trouble with CPS would ever resort to spanking. (Who knows, maybe you don't spank but are just in favor.)

Quote:

Pulled out rarely, available for use, but when used, applied with love.
I think I saw this in an ad for one of those baby whips.

I think in the GD forum, any posts in support of spanking are not allowed. I guess anyone who doesn't want to see such posts could just start these kinds of threads in that forum.

Also, about running in the street, I have found what helps is to grab the child's arm or shoulders and pull her around to face me, then get down to her level and look her in the eyes and speak sharply. It really gets her attention and causes her to stop what she is doing, but does not cause pain. She knows she has done something wrong. I think it's what spankers are trying to accomplish - it gets the child's attention and lets them know it's a serious matter.


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## Evergreen

There were many other things the parents could have done in this particular situation including (but not limited to )
1) having one parent sit in the backseat with the son to entertain him and act as carseat police (obviously the easiest for EVERYONE involved)

2) chosen different vacation destination

3) broken the trip up over an extra day

4) attempted to child-proof the carseat (since she didn't say if she tried this or not, one can not assume that said child would escape)

5)flown to where they were going instead of driving

It is not as simple as spank or dead child. You see the child fiddling with the carseat, you pull over. No time for anything to happen. There were two parents on this trip. one could have driven the other could have supervised. In this situation, though they were ready to spank when it got tough, no one was readily available to do the actual hard parts of parenting- taking time out from a conversation to cram yourself into the backseat and make physically certain your child stays safe.








Mamaid, I am very sorry for your loss


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## Greaseball

Yeah, if there were two parents, why was one of them not in the backseat?! Too much trouble? Do parents automatically have the right to sit up front where it's comfortable?


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## Mamid

Quote:

Maybe you don't realize that literally reddening a child's skin is illegal in some states. Maybe it's not illegal in your state, but in mine it is illegal to leave a lasting redness, though it is legal to hit with hands and objects. I'm surprised that anyone who has had such trouble with CPS would ever resort to spanking. (Who knows, maybe you don't spank but are just in favor.)
The Supreme Court of Canada gave parents in Canada back the option to spank. CPS now have their hands tied so long as parents follow the Supreme Court's recommendations.

Besides, a child not properly restrained in a car is also illegal. And deadly.

I sure do hope you aren't advocating that I simply let my child bounce around unrestrained in a car because he escapes from a car seat.

There was just an article in the local news about how people are dying because they aren't properly restrained in cars. If an adult chooses to do so, there is really nothing I can do to stop them. But my child is my responsibility. If he (soon to be they) get hurt or killed in an accident, I am the one at fault. Not the other driver (if there is one), not the manufacturer of the car seat. Me. I am the one responsible for making sure the child stays safe. Not the cop that pulls me over and gives me a ticket because the child was unrestrained. Not the paramedic performing futile CPR on a child that was ejected from the car.

Me. The parent. The adult. The one who must make sure the child is safe in a moving vehicle. Not just my own child, but any child under my supervision in the car.

Years ago, I was maybe 3, my mother and her friend travelled for days across Canada to get to the friend's wedding. She had her two boys in the car with me. On the way back, the boys were getting rambunctious and being PITA and making my life hell. So my mother threatened to stop the car.

They stopped for a bit then started up again. So, in the middle of the highway, in the middle of nowhere, my mother stopped the car and both mothers told the boys off. That the car wasn't moving until they settled down NOW. Sure the highway was empty (this was Saskatchewan in the 70's on HWY 1 you know) but the threat worked. They had the shit scared out of them. The boys sat and one read comics to me while the other read his book and they behaved all the way till the next stop and continued to behave for the rest of the trip.

No, it wasn't a spanking. But the threat worked.

You can't always have a parent in the backseat. With today's air bags, children in the front seat are a danger. The air bags could kill the kid.

Same thing for Vacation destination. My grandparents are 5000 miles away. I am scared of flying unless absolutely needed. So we'd have to do the long drive and in fact, we normally do a long drive every summer. We just take breaks as needed. Usually potty breaks every 2-4 hrs depending on how restless everyone's legs are. And by the time you factor in the cost of flying, driving is often cheaper unless you are going overseas.

And with some car seats, "child proofing" invalidates the safety. Sure, I can do it with the stroller, but not the car seat. If the buckle is undone, a tie is not going to keep my child in it in an accident.

Evergreen.. thanks for the hugs. My child died because it didn't have a chance to live. It hadn't even reached micropremie status. Burying one child makes me far more sensitive to safety with my other child. Being in two car accident with my DD who is now being raised by others, I am more than thankful that I put my foot down when it was suggested in the second one that she dared to be driven around without a car seat. She is alive. She is healthy. She was safe.

If she hadn't been in a car seat, she would have been killed.


----------



## Evergreen

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamid*
You can't always have a parent in the backseat.

You are absolutely right, Mamaid, BUT in the original situation both parents were in the car. Someone could have gotten in the back.

honestly, it wasn't so much the spanking that bothered me, but how it was done

1) in a clodly calculating manner

2) four times

3) then bragged about on the radio while purposely insulting GD, just because they didn't know how to properly employ the technique.


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## TiredX2

Quote:

Parents need both GD as well as other forms of discipline available to use. They need to be able to say to the kid "you crossed the line and now you will pay for the infraction" and then follow through with the punishment.
Why is that? Proof please. I have yet to see proof that children *NEED* punishment. I do not agree that parents need GD AND other forms of discipline available to them. Why do you think they need both? That, IMO, is *not* GD (using gentle methods until you "really" need some discipline).

I think that this may be partially an arguement of semantics though (for example, I don't consider saying "I'm going to stop the car if you are not buckled in" a threat, I consider that a statement and logical consequence. The car does NOT go w/out car seats.)


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## Arduinna

I can't believe the repeated excuses being made to support hitting children here.


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## MidnightCafe

Just wanted to add a few thoguhts to the mix...

I had a job for a while that involved taking children for supervised visits with their parents. I had a 3 yr old child who would not stay buckled in his carseat. I, of course, was not allowed to spank him. So, I had to do something else. I pulled the car over on the freeway once and I got very close to him & explained in no uncertain terms that he had to stay in his seat. I pointed to the cars on the road and told him that if we were ever to be in an accident with a car moving that fast that he could be hurt very badly. I told him that it scared me when he got out of his seat and I worried that he could get hurt. I told him that he must never, ever, ever get out of his seat again. I was angry. So, I'm afraid I was talking fast & loud and very much in his face. I was not yelling. But I was more forceful than usual. I don't know if this was the right approach or not. He started crying after we started driving again. I told him I was sorry for being angry with him and that I was just really very worried.

The next time I picked him up, we started driving down the street & he unbuckled his belt again. I pulled over and calmly told him we would go again when he buckled his belt. He did. 5 seconds down the road he unbuckled again. I pulled over again. All in all, we did this 3 times. I took him on several more visits to see his mom, but he only unbuckled once after that day. Maybe it wouldn't work for every child, but I found that the calm consistency really paid off.

Ok...here's something I've been puzzling over, too: In the audio clip from NPR, the woman says that they gave their child the choice of staying in his seat or sitting in a boiling car on the side of the road. Since the second option was not realistic, they could not enforce it. You can't leave your child in a boiling car on the side of the road.


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## Mamid

If we do something wrong, society punishes us. This is a founding tenent of our society.

Driving infractions are at the least a warning, more likely we'll get ticketed, our insurance rates will climb, possibly even jail time depending on the severity.

You piss off your boss or coworkers, you get demoted or fired.

You don't wear a seatbelt in a car accident and if you survive intact, you're damn lucky.

Don't wear a helmet skateboarding, cycling, etc...

Don't clean up your house - you could get your house condemned if the powers that be find out.

Those are all natural consequences and punishments. A child's safety in a car is worth more than anything in the world. Kids get killed if they get ejected from a car seat or are not properly restrained.

For some, a stern talking to works. For others, pulling over works. But there are children that will test limits and push until they find the absolute limit. No amount of distractions, threats, warnings, time outs, restrictions, groundings, loss of priviledges or loss of toys will stop them.

If the threat of the spanking is what the parents finally had to resort to and they hadn't followed through, that child would have been the one in control. Children are not mature enough to understand all the dangers around them. And they are definitely not mature enough to be the ones in control of the family. We are supposed to guide them towards adulthood. We also need to make sure they get there in one piece. They have to learn to respect authority and the laws of the land, but at the same time, understand that those laws are there to protect them.

A child climbing out of a carseat is a giant distraction for a driver. Just the act of climbing out by undoing the buckle is potentially deadly. A driver has to tell the child to get back in and then immediately get to a "safe place" to pull over in order to reseat the child. On some highways, the 1-5 in Seattle for example, pulling over is not easy nor is it safe.

Bored or not, and we've plied DS with tons of toys on long trips - its never enough! - the child MUST stay in the car seat. No ifs ands or buts about it.

There is simply no denying that. State, provincial and federal laws say that. Safety experts have proven it.

Does it matter if the parent couldn't sit in the back seat? No. Maybe the parent had been and even that didn't work. Since we weren't there, we don't know the entire situation. We weren't the parents. We weren't the ones travelling with that child. If they felt they had to resort to spanking to keep the child safe, who the hell are we to judge a parent when the safety of their child - life vs death - was at stake.


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## pugmadmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna*
I can't believe the repeated excuses being made to support hitting children here.

I think you are minimizing the situation and misrepresenting what most of us are saying.

There is literally no other area of life where I would even consider giving someone a pass for using corporal punishment. Unlike most GD people, I was also raised without corporal punishment. It's simply not a part of my life or my family-of-origin life.

However, cars can be very dangerous. I think part of the problem here is that we are trying to apply natural parenting practices to an unnatural situation (cars don't grow in the wild.) Accidents are called that because we didn't plan for them.

Someone brought up hitting your spouse. Again, my spouse and I have never, ever hit each other. For pete's sake, we rarely even raise our voices with each other (or our child.) Both of us were also raised in homes free of domestic violence. However, if one of us was doing something in the car that was endangering our own lives or the lives of others in the car and talking (even threatening) hadn't worked, then, yes, I can imagine one of us (most likely me) throwing a punch in desperation.

I think there is a huge difference between saying "I condemn coporal punishment but this case has elements that are problematic for me" and providing "excuses."


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## Arduinna

What I see is a bunch of excuses. About how it's legal in Canada to Hit Children (oo I guess that makes it right then because I have the legal RIGHT to hit my child), excuses about how "well I threatened a toddler and so I better follow though and hit him lest he think he can get away with not listening to me".

Bottom line there have been repeated posts that hitting is ok as long as the excuse is good enough. And I just do not agree. There have many other options mentioned but they are dismissed as silly and unreasonable or unworkable.

What I am reading is that it doesn't matter what anyone says some people believe that they have a right to hit children and THE SAD PART IS THAT THEY ARE JUSTIFYING FOR THE CHILDS OWN GOOD.

I personally find it sickening.

BTW, none of my posts have been directed at you, I am mearly replying to the post you directed to me.


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## Kinipela79

I feel like I have been posting this link all over the place but here it is again...

eight dangerous myths of spanking

I don't think that anyone is promoting spanking as a constant form of discipline but it's such a good article that I thought it would be ok to put here.


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## Mamid

I hope you never find yourself in a situation that you have no tools to use to keep your child safe.


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## Arduinna

Thank you

that link is very much needed in this thread!


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## Arduinna

The problem isn't having no tools and as long as you insist that spanking is what you will do if you can't think of anything else, you never will.

Witness the repeated suggestions that have been shot down.


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## Mamid

not so much shot down but "a didn't work so we tried b, then c, then d... finally we threatened spanking and it worked because we followed through with it."

All the GD moms seem to be saying "spanking is evil no matter what the reason."

Realistic parents understand that spanking, like GD is a tool that can be used. Doesn't mean it should. But it can be used.


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## User101

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamid*
For some, a stern talking to works. For others, pulling over works. But there are children that will test limits and push until they find the absolute limit. No amount of distractions, threats, warnings, time outs, restrictions, groundings, loss of priviledges or loss of toys will stop them.

If the threat of the spanking is what the parents finally had to resort to and they hadn't followed through, that child would have been the one in control. Children are not mature enough to understand all the dangers around them. And they are definitely not mature enough to be the ones in control of the family. We are supposed to guide them towards adulthood. We also need to make sure they get there in one piece. They have to learn to respect authority and the laws of the land, but at the same time, understand that those laws are there to protect them.

OK, so what if spanking doesn't work? Is it then morallly justifiable to take it to the next level? Spank harder? With an object? When does it stop being justifiable? The measure of whether or not something is acceptable shouldn't be it's effectiveness.

I'm also really confused as to how hitting a child teaches them to respect authority. If someone bigger than me hit me, it would teach me that they were stronger than me and could hurt me, I might obey out of fear, but probably not out of any respect.

And, if a child lacks the mental capacity to understand the dangers around them, how on earth do you expect them to make the leap that you hitting them is your way of protecting them according to the laws of society?!?

Annette


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## User101

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pugmadmama*
However, cars can be very dangerous. I think part of the problem here is that we are trying to apply natural parenting practices to an unnatural situation (cars don't grow in the wild.) Accidents are called that because we didn't plan for them.

Someone brought up hitting your spouse. Again, my spouse and I have never, ever hit each other. For pete's sake, we rarely even raise our voices with each other (or our child.) Both of us were also raised in homes free of domestic violence. However, if one of us was doing something in the car that was endangering our own lives or the lives of others in the car and talking (even threatening) hadn't worked, then, yes, I can imagine one of us (most likely me) throwing a punch in desperation.

I really like the first part of what you are saying about applying natural consequences to an unnatural situation, and I agree. It does make finding a natural consequence difficult. There are, however, any number of logical consequences, most of which will inconvenience the parents.

I completely disagree with your point about decking your spouse, however. If my husband was doing something in or out of the car that was endanger my life, the lives of my children, or his life, I would try to talk to him. I would pull the car over. I would refuse to ride with him. I would call the police, if necessary. I would certainly not hit him.

Annette


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## LoveBeads

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamid*
All the GD moms seem to be saying "spanking is evil no matter what the reason."

Realistic parents understand that spanking, like GD is a tool that can be used. Doesn't mean it should. But it can be used.

I don't understand why "GD moms" and "realistic parents" are at all mutually exclusive!

Boy, it's a good thing we GD moms all have perfectly behaved kids that never climb out of car seats, touch hot stoves, run out in traffic or approach strange dogs. I don't know what we would do!


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## Greaseball

Quote:

OK, so what if spanking doesn't work? Is it then morallly justifiable to take it to the next level? Spank harder? With an object? When does it stop being justifiable?
When I was in 1st grade, I rode the bus with a boy who was literally locked into his seat. He sat all the way in back, and there were leather straps and chains across his chest. There were padlocks holding it all together. The whole seat was in a little cage. He could just barely move his arms. The whole way to school, he would try to undo all the straps. (This was not a "special" bus, BTW - it was just a regular school bus.)


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## TiredX2

Quote:

For some, a stern talking to works. For others, pulling over works. But there are children that will test limits and push until they find the absolute limit. No amount of distractions, threats, warnings, time outs, restrictions, groundings, loss of priviledges or loss of toys will stop them.
And for some, a spanking will never be "enough." They will still "misbehave". So, if it is a safety issue can you hold a hot cigarett to your child? If its for their own good? Why not? Because that is CROSSING THE LINE. That is abusive. I am placing the line firmly where physical punishment takes over. Very simple. If you *could not* spank you would find a lot of other options that may never occur to someone who keeps spanking as a back up. I just don't understand why people think that a spank will cure this "horrid" problems when nothing else will


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## Arduinna

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annettemarie*
And, if a child lacks the mental capacity to understand the dangers around them, how on earth do you expect them to make the leap that you hitting them is your way of protecting them according to the laws of society?!?

Annette

Thank you for pointing this out. Especially because this case involves a 3 year old.


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## BunnysMomma

Since it's so popular around here to compare situations involving spouses to situations involving children, I just wanted to add that if my husband NEEDED me to do something important for perfectly valid reasons and I didn't because I either thought it was fun to refuse and see him get all worked up or because I was just in a pissy mood and didn't want to do what he said, and he leaned over and swatted me on the rear end, I would probably be shocked and I would probably be irritated, but I would not think he was abusing me. I say "swatted," which is what I have usually witnessed parents doing when they spank their kids, not "bludgeoned" or "hammered" or "beat" or "injured." If my husband reached over and punched me in the nose and drew blood, I'd probably feel he was abusing me. I draw the distinction because I feel that most of the "spankings" I have witnessed have been of the "pay attention to me" kind and not of the "I'm going to hurt you so you'll be afraid of me and mind me" kind. I'll reiterate that I don't spank (neither does my husband) and I think there are better parenting tools, but I don't think a swat on the butt is always and without exception abuse.

Wilma


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## sunnmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pugmadmama*
However, if one of us was doing something in the car that was endangering our own lives or the lives of others in the car and talking (even threatening) hadn't worked, then, yes, I can imagine one of us (most likely me) throwing a punch in desperation.

Even if I could agree with this scenario, this is not what happened. It is not like the child was putting his hand on a flame and dad smacked it away. It is not like I was driving and being an idiot and risking all of our lives and dh threw a punch. The child's actions were not dangerous if the car was stopped. Dad even *stopped the car and got out* to hit him. And he hit him 4 times.

No one was in danger at the moment he was hit.


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## User101

But he had to follow through with what he threatened.... (she said snarkily)


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## sunnmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamid*
All the GD moms seem to be saying "spanking is evil no matter what the reason."

Realistic parents understand that spanking, like GD is a tool that can be used.









:
GD moms are unrealistic?
Hitting is wrong. Hitting isn't a tool; hitting is violence. There are laws to protect everyone over 18 from being hit--why aren't the smallest and most vulnerable protected?


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## TiredX2

Quote:

Since it's so popular around here to compare situations involving spouses to situations involving children, I just wanted to add that if my husband NEEDED me to do something important for perfectly valid reasons and I didn't because I either thought it was fun to refuse and see him get all worked up or because I was just in a pissy mood and didn't want to do what he said, and he leaned over and swatted me on the rear end, I would probably be shocked and I would probably be irritated, but I would not think he was abusing me.
Wow, then we just will never agree. I would be shocked, irritated, and LIVID. My husband has no, get that 0%, right to hit me to make me do what he wants. I cannot believe an aduld would feel that way.


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## TiredX2

Quote:

Hitting is wrong. Hitting isn't a tool; hitting is violence.


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## famousmockngbrd

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads*
Boy, it's a good thing we GD moms all have perfectly behaved kids that never climb out of car seats, touch hot stoves, run out in traffic or approach strange dogs. I don't know what we would do!

:LOL

I'm wondering - those of you who think spanking is acceptable - do you think spanking is different from hitting, or do you think it's the same and hitting is justified sometimes?


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## famousmockngbrd

Greaseball - are you serious about that kid on your bus?


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## Greaseball

Yep.







I don't know what the deal was with that kid. But I'm sure if people are willing to go to those lengths, they'd try spanking too. I don't think that kid was an example of effective spanking.

Every day we would egg him on, trying to get him to undo his straps. One day he got one of them open and the bus driver just screamed at him. Although since he was basically in a cage, why did he need the straps?







:


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## famousmockngbrd

Wow.







Did he go to your school? What was he like when he was out of the cage?


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## candiland

Yeah, I've gotten pissed and threatened to kill my husband before.

I guess I should've followed through with it to make my point :LOL


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## Greaseball

Actually, when he was out of the cage he was a normal kid except that when you asked him what his name was, he would say "football player." But when you asked him "What's your real name" he would tell you his real name.

One day I threatened to use up a whole can of air freshener in one room all at once if dh ever left a poopy diaper sitting there ever again. He's done it, and I never followed through on my threat.







I guess now he will never learn.


----------



## crazy_eights

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamid*
I hope you never find yourself in a situation that you have no tools to use to keep your child safe.

You seem to be deliberately missing the point. Not only do these people seem to be lacking in parenting skills, but they go on to BRAG about it on public radio: "WELL GLORY BE! Smacking our kid 4 times really solved the problem! Maybe our parents had it right after all and we are just new age flakes!" Ok, so not in so many words, but that is the jist of what this woman is saying. You see to be determined to boil it down to 'smack the child or let the kid get killed' when there are so many other options out there.


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## famousmockngbrd

Greaseball, that is so weird.

I agree that it's important to be consistent. That is why I try so hard to think about what I am saying, and not back myself into a corner where I feel like I have to follow through with something I wish I hadn't said. But, sometimes I find myself in a situation where things are escalating and I am not acting in a way that I am proud of. For me this isn't spanking, it's yelling or being snappy.







I think it's important to be able to say "I was wrong, I shouldn't have said/done that, I'm sorry." Parents are not infallible, we make mistakes. What are we teaching our kids when we are unwilling to admit we were wrong?


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## Britishmum

"You seem to be deliberately missing the point. Not only do these people seem to be lacking in parenting skills, but they go on to BRAG about it on public radio: "WELL GLORY BE! Smacking our kid 4 times really solved the problem! Maybe our parents had it right after all and we are just new age flakes!" Ok, so not in so many words, but that is the jist of what this woman is saying. You see to be determined to boil it down to 'smack the child or let the kid get killed' when there are so many other options out there."

Absolutely.

I honestly think that some people here are missing the real point.

If she'd lost it with the child and resorted to hitting him, that was sad. But to BRAG ABOUT IT ON THE RADIO is sad, sad, sad. It shows that it was not a question of a desperate last resort, but something that she has rationalised to become acceptable to recommend to the world. And if a one-off incident like this was enough to convince her to preach to the world that GD is wrong, then she wasn't very committed to it in the first place.

And the idea that there are honestly many situations IRL that are 'hit the kid or the kid will die' is just too perplexing. This wasn't a plane being landed a solo pilot and a wild kid climbing out of his seat! It was a family on a road trip. Who are now proud that they hit their child. That's the point, not whether or not there are other solutions they could have found - but that this one sad incident was enough to convince them that hitting a young child is right.

I don't usually join in the 'what has become of MDC' threads, but this makes me wonder. It is making me very sad reading this thread.


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## Kinipela79

Spank, swat, tap, smack...it's hitting. Call it what it is.


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## PM

Quote:

I can imagine one of us (most likely me) throwing a punch in desperation.
So things have quickly progressed from advocating spanking to advocating "throwing punches." Hmm

I keep trying to find the last redeeming qualities about discussing things here, but I just can't.

Advocating spanking is not appropriate on this discussion board. If you want to do it, go somewhere else.


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## burritomama

NOW I understand why my mom spanked/hit/beat me!









It was to keep me alive! It was for my own good! It was because I was trying to get away with murder and needed to be put in my place! It was because society punishes those who do wrong and she was doing her part to prepare me for my life of receiving punishment for my wrongdoing.









Granted physical punishment is the "nuke" in the parents' arsenal but as long as its deployed with love, well...









Had she only been even MORE consistent and beat me every time she threatened, well, I'd probably be an even better person now...







:

Damn.


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## simonee

GD is NOT a tool, it's a lifestyle.


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## User101

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BunnysMomma*
I just wanted to add that if my husband NEEDED me to do something important for perfectly valid reasons and I didn't because I either thought it was fun to refuse and see him get all worked up or because I was just in a pissy mood and didn't want to do what he said, and he leaned over and swatted me on the rear end, I would probably be shocked and I would probably be irritated, but I would not think he was abusing me.

Wow.









I guess this is where the chasm between our beliefs becomes unpassable, because if my husband leaned over and swatted me on the rear end, no matter what supposed provocation I had given him, I would be shocked, irritated, and consider it abusive. In our home, we use our words.
Annette


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## TiredX2

Quote:

because if my husband leaned over and swatted me on the rear end, no matter what supposed provocation I had given him
Well, don't go to far. I can think of some provacations that deserve a swat on the ass









But as punishment or correction? Never.

Quote:

GD is NOT a tool, it's a lifestyle.
Thank you. ITA. You can't switch from GD to PD to freaking out all the time. If you gentle disciple, that is a way of life. Once you are only using it at times, that just means you are using the TOOLS within GD at times, not GD itself.


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## Penalt

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd*
:LOL

I'm wondering - those of you who think spanking is acceptable - do you think spanking is different from hitting, or do you think it's the same and hitting is justified sometimes?

If you want to argue the semantics then, yes, spanking IS different from hitting. Its a matter of two things. Force used and emotional intent. Spanking isto be done with minimal force for loving correction. Hitting is done with maximum force for the intent of causing harm.

And let us be extremely clear on a point here.

Spanking is *NOT* a crime. The Supreme Court has made itself clear on this point.

Allowing a child to be unsecured in a moving vehicle *IS* a crime. Just ask any law enforcement officer.

As far as what the parents on NPR did, once the threat was made the parent had to carry through or any threat in the future would have been useless. Even one that didn't involve spanking.

The upshot of the whole thing is you have to GWWW. If GD works go with it. If PD works go with it. If a combination of the two work go with that. Children don't come from a factory. Each one is unique and will often require unique approaches to discipline from their parents.

In a perfect world GD would be used to solve international disputes. Until then you have to Go With What Works and don't let a lifestyle philosophy blind you to alternatives.


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## Penalt

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
Well, don't go to far. I can think of some provacations that deserve a swat on the ass









But as punishment or correction? Never.


Ah, but if I understand the view of the GD proponents what you speak of would be considered abuse and the person doing that should be arrested. FWIW I know exactly what you mean tho.


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## burritomama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Penalt*
Spanking is *NOT* a crime. The Supreme Court has made itself clear on this point.


Well, ahem, if the Supreme Court says so...


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## JessicaS

Why even bother with trying GD if you are going to say "If it doesn't work I will just spank them." That doesn't even make sense.

I have a huge problem about the issue regarding carrying out threats. What about making standards to *YOURSELF* and carrying them out? What about making sound rational decisions regarding your parenting methods and then tossing them out the window when things get too hairy?

That is breaking promises to yourself, what is the difference between breaking your own moral codes and not carrying out a threat to a child?

A child will remember they are inconsistant? No kidding they are inconstant..they couldn't even stick not spanking when they decided on it.

If you are going to harp on being consistant and carrying out threats then you should hold yourself to those same standards.

If they were going to worry about carrying out threats then why was the threat made it the first place?

If my husband was all big on carrying out every threat he made and then said "If you don't do this I will spank you" I would be FURIOUS!!!! Is calmly reminding someone "We do not spank remember? We decided?? That no spanking thing"

Is that too much to ask? It isn't undermining someone discipline enforcement to expect them to stick to the method they decided on.


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## Arduinna

a 3 year old is going to be thinking oooo they didn't do what they they were going to, I guess they are always full of crap, I'll never believe them again.

yeah right that 3 year old must be quite advanced for his age


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## Kinipela79

This thread is just making me so upset. You can't hit someone to make them do what you want them to do in a loving manner - what is that teaching? I really think that spanking is one of the laziest forms of "discipline". It doesn't inconvient the parent, takes little time and really shows them who's boss.







We aren't here to hit our kids into doing what we want. We teach them by letting them watch us and how we react to different situations. We teach them by talking to them in terms they can understand. We teach them by being firm - and standing strong in what is right and wrong - but also showing that violence doesn't solve problems. What are we teaching our children by spanking - other than, if someone is frustrating you by not doing what you want them to be doing...hit them?


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## Mamid

/me watches point Penalt made sail right over heads...

Quote:

The upshot of the whole thing is you have to GWWW. If GD works go with it. If PD works go with it. If a combination of the two work go with that. Children don't come from a factory. Each one is unique and will often require unique approaches to discipline from their parents.

In a perfect world GD would be used to solve international disputes. Until then you have to Go With What Works and don't let a lifestyle philosophy blind you to alternatives.


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## Peppermint

Consistency and follow through is GREAT- but-

I hope that when I say something stupid, then cool down and explain to my child why I have changed my mind, how it would be wrong for me to hit, to apologize and move on---I hope they learn through modeling how to behave when they have been foolish/hurtful. I want my daughter to know that she always has the right to say, "no", even if she said "yes" 2 minutes ago. I want my son to know when he threatens to punch some kids lights out for calling him a name- that he *can* change his mind, take the high road, and do what is right -not go ahead and prove his "might" for fear of being called a sissy.

I think doing what is right is FAR more important than consistency.

PS- when I just typed "FAR" in caps, I almost wrote "FART" and luckily corrected it in time so my point would not be lost.:LOL


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## JessicaS

I wasn't ignoring the point at all.

I do not consider spanking to be an alternative, once you have an alternative that is EASIER, then that is what you are going to take. If you cannot stick to the decisions you made then there is no point in making them.

Backup plans are made to be used and alternatives are there for the taking.

Especially when they are easier than actually having to work things out with your child or spending time actually distracting them from the fact that they have been in the carseat for hours.

GD isn't just a method or a "lifestyle" it is a DECISION, to hold yourself up to higher standards and to not take the easy route. The GWWW theory implies that spanking one kid is ok. Just because one child is more of a challenge doesn't suddenly mean it is ok.

I do not practice GD because it is some new fangled theory I want to try out. I do not think spanking is ok. I think spanking is wrong. GWWW implies I am willing to back down on that in regard to my parenting and I am not.

Like Peppermint stated, it is better to do what is right than be consistant.


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## Dar

I don't agree with "going with what works". In nearly all situations, there are a myriad of possible solutions to a problem - a plethora of "working" solutions. The challenge is to chose and use the ones that fit with our morality and belief systems. If I believe that violence against children is wrong, then hitting is not a solution I will chose, regardless of whether or not it "works".

As people have mentioned, the problem with violent solutions is that once you cross that line, you open the door to other violent solutions. If a "spank" with your hand doesn't "work", maybe using a hairbrush will? Or a belt? If it "works" (i.e., stops the behavior at that moment) then it's okay, right?

You need to have a basic belief system in place before you start finding things that "work". Gentle discipline is one such system. Within that system, it's great to think about options and go with what works for your child, but without starting from a set of standards, "what works" becomes "anything goes".

If your basic belief system is gentle discipline, spanking is not an option. It's outside the system.

Dar


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## journeymom

All Things Considered reads listener mail on Thursday, right? Did anyone happen to hear, and were there any letters in response to this article?


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## Sisyphus

AMEN Abimommy...

GD isn't a "lifestyle" or "philosophy" that we put on and take off like a scarf... it's a commitment to living and raising our children in a non-violent, non-punitive manner to MAKE THE WORLD A BETTER PLACE.

No matter what your rationalization is for spanking the research shows over and over it doesn't work and it causes more problems than it solves. You can't argue with facts... well, you can, but as someone on MDC (my apologies for not remembering who it is) has in their signature "the plural of data isn't anecdotes" or something to that effect (boy, I just royally fubared that one, didn't I??? Hopefully you get the point I'm trying to make). In other words, you can dress it up in a pretty dress, but spanking is hitting and as we keep saying, if it were another adult, you'd come up with some other options... just imagine it was an elderly person with severe dementia... my grandfather was like that and it was like having a six foot tall two year old around.... he could tantrum with the best of them LOL... did I spank him when he did stuff that I specifically asked him not to?? No... when he would get into the driver's seat and insist he could drive?? No... if I *had* spanked him, it would be considered abuse, even if it only happened one time... if you were caring for a mentally disabled adult it's the same thing... WHY is it OK to use violence against a small child?? WHY?? No one can answer that because it's NOT RIGHT.

The last thing I want to teach my kids is that might makes right... just because you are bigger/stronger/smarter than someone else and you ÇAN hit them or bully them does NOT give you the RIGHT to do so.

Lo


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## crazy_eights

For those that believe that they *must* hit a kid 'b/c that is what works': no one has addressed the issue of 'what do you do when that doesn't work or if that stops working'. First of all, it has been shown that spanking usually DOES stop working. Secondly, since the arguement seems to go 'this is the only thing that works so I have no other options' - what do you do if that isn't working? Since you can conceptualize of a situation in which you *HAVE* to find something other than spanking, why can't you do that in the first place and find something other than spanking? Sort of faults the logic of 'it is the only thing that works'.


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## User101

No response in listener mail on Thursday- I don't know if that means nobody wrote, or if it just means it wasn't important enough to air a response.

Maybe no one on activism wrote because everyone was sidetracked into a debate on the merits of spanking, which should not even be an issue on MOTHERING.com. You know, Mothering? The magazine where the editor has come out in numerous editorials and stated it is not OK to hit children (or anyone else)

Is there a disgusted smiley?


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## Britishmum

"a debate on the merits of spanking, which should not even be an issue on MOTHERING.com. You know, Mothering? The magazine where the editor has come out in numerous editorials and stated it is not OK to hit children (or anyone else)

Is there a disgusted smiley?"

Amen. I"m astounded by some of the posts on this thread.

If we all start going with what 'works', then we may as well go to mainstream boards and start leaving our babies to cry it out, spanking them if they 'misbehave' and washing their mouths out with soap if they swear. After all that would 'work' wouldnt it?

Or are we at MDC here where the bottom line of AP is respect. How can you respect someone if you are hitting them.

Oh, but sorry, spanking is not 'hitting', it is different. You can do it lovingly.

I've never used this smiley before, but here goes:

uke uke uke


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## TiredX2

Quote:

For those that believe that they *must* hit a kid 'b/c that is what works': no one has addressed the issue of 'what do you do when that doesn't work or if that stops working'.
Well, in the case of my parents (over all reasonable people), for my brother it was hitting him with a tea kettle and pouring the hot (not boiling) water on him. For me, it was stradling me and spitting into my face.

I cannot even comprehend why we are having this conversation on Mothering. I *thought* it was unacceptable to advocate spanking on this board. Little did I know.

GWWW--- LOL. It has been stated OVER AND OVER that spanking does not "work." It is a temporary solution to a lifetime situation. It did not "fly over my head"







There are certain things that are just unacceptable, and hitting people is one of them.


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## sunnmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Peppermint*
I think doing what is right is FAR more important than consistency.

PS- when I just typed "FAR" in caps, I almost wrote "FART" and luckily corrected it in time so my point would not be lost.:LOL

OMG, I am having such a lousy day--really down--and this made me







:







:







: Thank you!
And, of course, ITA with your message!

As for GWWW--Sure, if it is respectful to the child. H


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## Greaseball

Quote:

Spanking is NOT a crime. The Supreme Court has made itself clear on this point.
Doesn't change the fact that it ought to be a crime. The law is not always right.


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## Britishmum

"Doesn't change the fact that it ought to be a crime."

Greaseball, you and I are in total agreement.









This idea of 'what works' intrigues me. I have an acquaintance/friend with three children, all of whom have been spanked because it is 'God's way' and 'it works'.

What really interests me is watching her kids interact with mine. For example, the other day, I watched her three year old purposely push my three year old off a bike, when he thought that nobody could see. My dd called for help, and tried telling the mother that she'd been pushed. As quick as a flash, the little boy started looking very concerned about dd and 'helping' her get up. The mother told dd to basically lighten up, her son was 'helping' not pushing.

This is typical behaviour for all her three kids, doing 'wrong' things, then covering them up. The emphasis is upon not getting caught. I'm not saying that my kids don't do naughty things, but they don't sneak around and usually confess to their misdemeanors, because they know that we'll talk about it, there may be a consequence, but that I"m not going to hit them. My dd would have openly told me she'd pushed the other child off the bike and why.

I was in a position where I knew if I'd intervened and told the mother what her son had done, he'd have been hit for it. But by doing nothing, I was not standing up for my dd. In the end, I quietly spoke to dd afterwards about being pushed, but not the spanking bit, as she'd be upset that any adult could do that to a child.

So, has spanking these three kids 'worked'? Absolutely not. It's made them good at doing things and not getting caught. Or blaming someone else. I honestly believe their behaviour is a lot worse than it would have been if they hadnt been hit by their parents. It's like a battle of wills, to get away with what you can.

Interestingly, they also had their mouths washed out with soap for swearing. The mother told me, and said that it worked. I was appalled and I told her that what would happen was that they would still swear, but out of her hearing. And probably about her. And the thoughts that they had about her after she did this to them were probably quite #*@#@* as a result. But with her upbringing, where this treatment of chidlren is seen as a parent's duty, she just cannot comprehend that there is anything wrong.

I know she's waiting for my children to become monsters because we practice GD, but I have to say that there is no comparison in behaviour, unless you only look at what happens superficially. My kids are far more gentle, kind, polite and considerate of others. But her kids jump to it if their dad gives an instruction. Moreover, they have got very good at misbehaving and not getting caught.


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## LoveBeads

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Penalt*
Spanking isto be done with minimal force for loving correction.

uke

Putting the word "spanking" and "loving" in the same sentence always does it to me....


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## burritomama

Me too.


----------



## monkey's mom




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## Britishmum

Now that I'm getting over the shock of hearing 'spanking' and 'loving' in the same sentence, on mdc, where I don't expect to hear such a thing, I wanted to pick up on another notion that never ceases to amaze me:

"As far as what the parents on NPR did, once the threat was made the parent had to carry through or any threat in the future would have been useless. Even one that didn't involve spanking."

So do some people truly believe that they can never ever admit to their child that they were wrong, or that something they said was maybe rash?

What message does this give to a child? That a parent is always right, that an adult always knows best, that it is not normal to get things wrong or say something in the heat of the moment that you can later take back.

How sad.

I have at times told my dd that I was in the wrong. It is easy, imo, to say "You know, now I've thought about it, I can see that x/y/z was more important to you than I'd realised" or "It seems that this is really not working, how can we sort this out?"

I like to think that my children will grow up knowing that, while I stand firm on most things, I will not go ahead and do something fundamentally wrong, because I made a mistake in the first place. My children have heard me apologise and go back on something I might have said in the heat of the moment. It certainly doesnt mean that they have lost respect for me. And it certainly has not rendered any discipline useless for the future.

Relationships are a two-way street (or should be) and imo parents who fear such loss of control of their kids have already lost that two way relationship in their desire to never lose face.


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## famousmockngbrd

I just don't get how people who love their kids can think that spanking is OK. I say this because I know people who I know love their kids, and they spank them. It just baffles me.

Spanking is using pain as a deterrent. The purpose of spanking is to cause pain. By spanking, you are creating pain for your child. Don't hurt your child.


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## littleaugustbaby

I just finished listening to the commentary, and my biggest problem was the woman's flippant attitude. I could practically see her rolling her eyes while she said that they practiced "new-aged parenting" and "weren't supposed to spank".

The last part also got to me, when she talked about how their trip was much more "cheerful" after her husband spanked her son. How many people have said that after they let their baby CIO for a few nights, that they were much happier? It just doesn't sit right with me at all.


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## Mothra

Britishmum-- you hit on something that took me longer to figure out than I'd like to admit. Parents are wrong sometimes. My parents never, ever admit that they are wrong. If my mother does, it is in a "woe is me, everything I do is wrong" way and it sucks. I can't tell you how many times I knew that I was right, I knew that my parents were wrong, and knew that THEY knew that they were wrong but would not admit it. It is really demeaning and disrespectful, and puts up a huge barrier between people.

I mentioned in another thread that I yelled at my son yesterday. It was ridiculous. I yelled at him for yelling at his brother. It was instinctual. My parents were yellers, and I find my voice raising when I get frustrated. It is something I have worked on a LOT and it is very rare that I raise my voice. When I do, I apologize. I say, "I'm sorry, I should not have done that," and do not offer any qualifications. So many parents I know would never think of apologizing to their kids because they are afraid it makes them look weak. I want my kids to respect me, not fear me, and I don't think they can respect me unless they see me as a real person.

We pretty much don't hang out with families who spank. My oldest son is old enough to play at other children's houses and have friends over here, but we really try to avoid it as much as possible. I used to be all about being a good example for not hitting children, but I cannot allow another child to be hit in my house. That has caused quite a few problems. And like Britishmum described, I have also been put in the position where I had to choose between standing up for my child or covering for a child that I knew would be hit if what really happened came out. It sucks.

To stay on topic, I didn't hear the commentary, but what you all have said about it makes my stomach turn. Parenting is not easy. There are no shortcuts. Not safe, healthy ones, anyway. My children, ages 6, 2, and under 6mo at the time, logged over 10,000 miles this summer between traveling and two moves. We're military, we didn't have a choice. I was alone with the kids for over half of those 10,000 miles. We had some tense, tense moments where planes were almost missed and there was complete chaos. Not once were any of my children hit by anyone. They were not perfect and sometimes it was hell, but no one suffered violence at the hand of someone they love and trust.


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## cynthia mosher

This thread has been pointed out to me due to some posts that advocate spanking as a solution to a specific problem.

I think everyone in this thread realizes Mothering's stance against physical discipline of children. Need it be reiterated? I'll give it to you in the words of Peggy O'Mara in _Natural Family Living_:

Quote:

If we are to look truthfully and honestly at spanking, we must first of all call it what it really is: hitting. Even when done gently, using physical force to discipline a child is always wrong.

Hitting a child is always wrong because:

It teaches that hitting is the way to solve problems...

It humiliates and demeans...

It can be abusive...

It is never justified...
Peggy goes on to give alternatives to physical punishment and that is what this thread should be focused on, not on defending spanking.

So let's pull this thread back around to advocacy AGAINST spanking, complaints to NPR for the program, and plausible alternatives to hitting. Anything supporting physical punishment is inappropriate here as Mothering does not host such advocacies.


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## burritomama

Britishmum: gracias!


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## Rhonwyn

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cynthia Mosher*
So let's pull this thread back around to advocacy AGAINST spanking, complaints to NPR for the program, and plausible alternatives to hitting. Anything supporting physical punishment is inappropriate here as Mothering does not host such advocacies.




















































Thank you!


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## sunnmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cynthia Mosher*
Anything supporting physical punishment is inappropriate here as Mothering does not host such advocacies.


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## crazy_eights

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cynthia Mosher*
So let's pull this thread back around to advocacy AGAINST spanking, complaints to NPR for the program, and plausible alternatives to hitting. Anything supporting physical punishment is inappropriate here as Mothering does not host such advocacies.









Thank you Cythia and Peggy!


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## Arduinna

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cynthia Mosher*
Anything supporting physical punishment is inappropriate here as Mothering does not host such advocacies.

Thank you Cynthia, I think that quote is worthy of a sigline!


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## Britishmum

Thanks Cynthia


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## Kinipela79




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## owensmom

Does a 3 year old that hasn't ever been spanked understand "don't do it again or I'll spank you"? Do they even know what spanking is? Might as well say "don't do it again or I'll mwong you".

(someone said...) "You can't always have a parent in the backseat. With today's air bags, children in the front seat are a danger. The air bags could kill the kid."

I think she meant sit in the backseat next to the child, not switch places. That is what I had to do, or I would have heard "AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH" for 8 hours. I brought bags of distractions, and played entertainer.

So the commentator said Swatted. But who knows how hard he actually hit the child (especially not her if she couldn't even watch!!). I "swat" my son, because hey, that isn't abuse. He thinks that is the way to handle things, so he "swats" his sister. And his friends. Slippery slope, I know, but not unrealistic. Ya don't hit people to get your way, or express your displeasure. It is called self-restraint.

Abimommy - AMEN!!

Sorry this is so random, but I'm reading 8 pages of this and quoting everyone I want to quote seems impossible. So I opened a Notepad and respond as I go!


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## Mamid

Quote:

(someone said...) "You can't always have a parent in the backseat. With today's air bags, children in the front seat are a danger. The air bags could kill the kid."

I think she meant sit in the backseat next to the child, not switch places. That is what I had to do, or I would have heard "AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH H HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH" for 8 hours. I brought bags of distractions, and played entertainer.
I was the one who said that.

If you have two children and airbags you can't switch the kids around with one of the adults. It isn't safe for the child to be sitting in the right front seat. Hell, airbags aren't safe for some adults either!

As I said before, I refuse to budge when it comes to car safety. A butt that's red is not a butt that's dead. Hard line, I know, but when you've been IN an accident with your child and the only thing that saved them was a car seat and you yourself were badly injured, you'll understand exactly where I am coming from.

Until then, don't judge me for making that stand. You (general you) simply don't understand the terror I went through. Not once, mind you, but twice!


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## TiredX2

I thought it had been made clear there was to be *NO* advocating for corporal punishment on this board?


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## TiredX2

Quote:

Until then, don't judge me for making that stand.
I'm getting pretty tired of this arguement.

So, now only people who have been in a serious accident with their children in the car can comment on not hitting children.







I've been in a major accident before. I INSIST on car safety. I DON'T HIT MY CHILDREN. Stop insisting it is necessary or people can't understand what it is like. Please.


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## asherah

I am not judging you, I am disagreeing with you.

And I am sorry, it is not fair to keep bringing up your personal tragedies to justify spanking.
Obviously everyone here is sympathetic to your loss and accidents.
No one wants to say anything hurtful to you when you have obviously suffered.
But sorry, I do not believe spanking would have prevented your tragedies... or anyone else's.
I believe spanking IS a tragedy.
And I believe there are plenty of other ways to keep kids in their carseats.
This dichotomy you have set up of spanking or death is simply false. There are many. many other ways to keep children safe.
Spanking does not keep children safe, it causes them pain.

You need to stop advocating violence against children here.
It has been made clear it isn't okay to do that here.
And yes.. call it spanking, swatting, or whatever euphimism you choose.. it is violence against children. It solves nothing. and it is not okay.


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## Britishmum

"A butt that's red is not a butt that's dead."

I thought it was made clear that a comment like this is not acceptable on mdc.


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## owensmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
I'm getting pretty tired of this arguement.

Good thing your user name is TiredX2! Heh. I crack myself up sometimes.


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## Mamid

Doesn't matter what I say or how I justify myself to any of you, does it?

I was nearly killed because of a car accident I was in. It didn't happen that day, but it did cause my lost angel's placenta to start to abrupt. I was about 9-12 weeks and didn't know it. When I finally lost that baby, I was passing clots the size of my fist.

I wore a seat belt. That was probably the only thing that saved my life. But my child died.

But of course, that doesn't count to the insurance idiots. After all, no one else in the car was that badly injured. I only had a lap belt on and was sitting in the back seat, the furthest point from the impact.

My daughter was 6 months old and we got rear ended. Her little head hit the bar of her car seat and it fell back and hit the back of the car seat itself. She was properly secured according to manufacturer and the car's manual. I was sitting in the back seat and saw what happened to her.

Then, when she was 4, I was sitting beside her in the van we were in in the back seat and we got tboned. I ended up with bruises up and down my body from the car seat impacting me. I know from experience that it is not safe to be sitting beside a car seat. No matter how well its restrained, accidents can and do cause enough damage that a secured car seat can move. And a passenger with just a lap belt on can move more.

If she hadn't been in that car seat, that little angel of mine would have been badly injured. She didn't even have whiplash. I, however, could barely move and had to go through three months of physio to get rid of my cane. Again, I was lucky I was still able to walk after the accident, cane or no cane.

I take a hard line when it comes to car safety. One other accident I was in, I was in a cab and yes, I did have my seat belt on. It caused damage to my pelvis and lower back. Hell, I'm lucky I can walk!

If you think I go straight to spanking, you are wrong. I do exactly what that couple did. I make the punishments more severe as the infractions warrant. I start with distractions, then removal of items that will make the child attempt to escape. Eventually, if it was needed, I would threaten spanking if the child kept on attempting to escape.

In other words : I would do exactly what that couple did.

And now that I am about to have a second child, it will simply not be safe to move one to the front seat. Sure, our car is old enough that it doesn't have air bags, it also doesn't have the proper restraints to put a car seat into the front.

And even if it did, it would be made clear from the start that babies and sons sit in their seats just like mommies and daddies. Ever since I was a child, I have made sure that ALL people are buckled in. The car simply doesn't move. I've been in arguments to other adults about why they need to be buckled in to the point where physical violence was threatened upon me if I didn't start driving. I refuse to move on my line. Everyone gets buckled in and everyone STAYS buckled in.

The point is, this child was escaping from his seat in a moving car. That is beyond dangerous. That is down right deadly. Not just for the child, but for the other people in that car and heaven forbid anyone they hit because the driver was distracted.

We've had a couple scares recently. DS has figured out lap belts. Which means if he's allowed to play inside the car, we have to make sure his car seat is properly buckled in before the car goes anywhere. We were just damn lucky nothing happened during the two trips where he did that. The back tether just isn't enough to keep a child safe. He doesn't know that he did something wrong so we haven't punished him for that. We were punishning him for undoing his chest strap. Now, most of the time when he goes to the car, he goes straight to his car seat.

I hope I never have to resort to the threat of spanking him if he dared to escape. His life is more important to me than whether or not his "emotional" or "psychological" needs were damaged because I dared to spank him for getting out of the car seat. Car safety comes before those. I can hold him and let him cry. I sure as hell do not want to bury him because I was unable to convince him to obey the safety rules.

Besides, a child unrestrained in a car is illegal. I have no desire to break the law.


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## girlndocs

Mamid, I've gone over this thread with a fine tooth comb and I CANNOT find anywhere where anyone says they would let their kid ride unrestrained.


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## JessicaS

The admin of this board already posted CLEARLY stating that spanking is NOT to be advocated here.

Mothering magazine is anti-spanking and I HIGHLY doubt Peggy O'Mara is willing to compromise on that.

If you would like to disagree with the admin and mods of this site, you may email HER at [email protected] to discuss our actions.

Any further posts promoting spanking will be deleted.

The carseat issue is completely unrelated to the spanking issue. No one stated they did not require their children be in carseats. An airbag and seatbelt saved my life not three months ago. I am well aware of the necessity of those things.


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## Greaseball

Quote:

I know from experience that it is not safe to be sitting beside a car seat.
What do you think parents of more than one child do? They put one child beside the carseat. Are we all supposed to buy minivans when we have another kid?

Right now I have the infant seat in the middle in the back and the toddler seat behind the driver's seat. When I was a kid, I sat behind the passenger seat, the toddler carseat was in the middle, and my sister sat behind the drivers seat. So there were two people on either side of the carseat.

And yes, if my baby starts crying while in the car and dh is there, I have him drive while I sit by her in the backseat.


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## Mamid

Quote:

Mamid, I've gone over this thread with a fine tooth comb and I CANNOT find anywhere where anyone says they would let their kid ride unrestrained.
If the child isn't properly secured into the seat and/or the seat itself isn't properly secured to the car, the child is unrestrained and could die in an accident. One buckle undone can kill a child. Have any of you watched the car seat accident videos that the safety commissions do? The ones where the cars get impacted over and over again?

And yes, it is getting to the point where minivans are going to be required for all parents if they have more than 2 children. Or multiple cars. Which sucks royally.

Hell, I'm terrified to drive a car now because there is less than a pinkie's width between me and the steering wheel. If I was to get into an accident now, Bun would be injured or worse, nevermind the damage that would be done to me.

And I asked my social worker about this. Breaking the law - a child not properly restrained or completely unrestrained - is something that would cause CPS to go after the parents for.


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## JessicaS

What is your point?

Do you think people don't know this? Do you think non-spanking let their children jump all about their vehicle or something? No one said they let their children ride unrestrained.

You do not have to spank a child to keep them in their carseat.


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## User101

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamid*
Doesn't matter what I say or how I justify myself to any of you, does it?

No, it doesn't. Hitting a child is hitting a child. Period. I've lost a baby too. I was run off the road by some guy too high to hit the break pedal. I lost my step-mother to a drunk driver. I do not advocate hitting children in the name of car safety. We all have a history, and we all have choices.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mamid*
Besides, a child unrestrained in a car is illegal. I have no desire to break the law.

Then, if you can't get your child in a car seat without hitting him or her, stay home. Seriously. Get a babysitter and don't take the child with you unless you absolutely have to, and then have someone else travel with you, sitting next to the child, and placing their hands over the buckle so they can't undo it. Physically place them in the car seat and fasten it. Listen to the screaming and the howling if you have to. Sit next to the crying baby (with your seatbelt on) and lean over and nurse him. Sing to him while you are driving. Put on a story tape or singalong tape for an older child. Play I Spy. Play Simon Says. Bribe him with a new toy or book if you have to. Just because the child won't do what you want, just because you have had previous bad experiences, just because the law says the child has to do something the child does not want to do DOES NOT GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO HIT THE CHILD. You are bigger. You are stronger. You are capable of rational thought and reason. You are an intelligent woman who can surely come up with a better solution than hitting someone smaller and weaker than you in the name of expediency.

Did you listen to the NPR piece?


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## TiredX2

Quote:

In other words : I would do exactly what that couple did.
Would you then go on national radio and brag about hitting your child?

There are many, many, many parents here advocating for both NO hitting AND car safety. It is offensive to presume that we do not care about car safety because we are unwilling to hit our children.


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## Mothra

I'm not following this car safety = spanking thing. At all. Several of us have posted our experiences about long, tedious car trips and have all survived without inflicting pain on our children. It doesn't make any sense to me.


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## Greaseball

Yeah, and I don't believe we were just blessed with exceptionally obedient children either.


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## asherah

And I do not see how spanking would have prevented anything you have suffered.

At this point what you are saying simply makes no sense.


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## Mamid

some children are easy to cope with. Others aren't. Children aren't born with owner's manuals at the same time as their placentas are.

For some parents, CYO works. Others, Ezzoing. Others, GD works. Yet others, AP works. And yet even others do a variant of all the above and other parenting styles. My partner and I decided to try a variant of GD with DS and it has worked. But at the same time, we still use CYO especially at bedtime/naptime or as part of a time out. If we don't, DS spends the entire night wired, buzzed and gets crankier and crankier which frays our nerves. We have had to resort to that because if we don't, he simply thinks its playtime and can and has injured himself bouncing off the walls. We're not 100% AP parents, but we do cosleep and babywear for as long as possible. We do try to GD too, but we have our limits. We aren't perfect - we are human! And humans are notorious for making mistakes.

No, I wouldn't have gone on NPR and spouted what the woman spouted. But if a gf had come up to me and said the same thing, I would have reassured her she wasn't a bad parent. That a lapse like that is normal and forgivable. That her child's safety was paramount.

No, I would not put our lives on hold if we can't find a sitter or can't go on a trip with DS because he was escaping. He can not rule the household like that. If he did, we wouldn't be able to see his aunts and uncles or grandparents. He has to learn that he must stay in his seat cause that's where he's safest. So far, he seems to understand that. His sister, however, didn't and I got a ticket for taking an illegal right turn. It wasn't until I got home that I found that she had gotten out of the shoulder straps of her car seat. If we had been in an accident, there is no ifs ands or butts about it - she would have been dead. I don't remember if I spanked her or not, I was still too horrified about the ticket that I was more interested in making arrangements to fight it than to punish her. When I told the judge what happened, the ticket was dropped. After all, I had exibit A with me - a toddler who got out of her stroller in front of him even with a harness on that was tied to it!

I honestly think this thread should be killed. It is upsetting to be so horribly vilelified for even daring to agree with those parents and what they did. Worse yet, I have been having body memories of the accidents I experienced and they are not something I anticipated after telling my point of view. This is going to take me several days to get over.


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## pln

You can use your words to hide the true intent of your actions (i.e. spanking doesn't equal hitting, whatever...)

Or you can use your words to build bridges and resolve conflicts.

Spanking your kids is wrong because it does not deal with the underlying causes of their behavior. It is a short-term, and short-sighted band-aid to a deeper problem

Want to see the long-term effects? Go into the principal's office at any high school after lunch. You'll see a bunch of kids who speak with their fists, just like they were taught to do by their parents who hit them when it was "necessary" for their "safety." Yeah right.

Difficult interactions with children require creative solutions, not knee-jerk reactions. Don't fool yourselves that years of attachment parenting can't be broken with a few good slaps.


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## Mamid

I'll tell that to a boy who used to torment me at school then. That his apology years ago meant nothing. That being pushed, sexually harrassed, stalked and more can't ever be healed.

Oh he'll love to hear that!


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## Greaseball

Quote:

For some parents, CYO works. Others, Ezzoing. Others, GD works. Yet others, AP works.
What about the CHILDREN??? I've yet to meet a child who would choose to be Ezzoized.


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## asherah

OMG you are defending EZZO now???


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## User101

This is just so beyond making sense...
Annette


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## Aura_Kitten

... i'm away from the thread a few days and look where it goes!








:


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## TiredX2

Well, I guess if you are comfortable with parents choosing to use Ezzo as a guide it makes complete sense to support someone bragging about hitting their child.


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## burritomama

no words really


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## Arduinna

Originally Posted by Mamid
Doesn't matter what I say or how I justify myself to any of you, does it?

I'm glad you finally got it! Your right, there is no justification for hitting, period!

I'm wondering what part of Cynthia Moshers post you haven't gotten? We do not host spanking/hitting advocacy here. Period. Regardless of the so called justification.

And now you are defending Ezzo et al, WOW! Scary.


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## aussiemum

I have been in several car accidents, altho thankfully only one minor rear-ending one when the kids were in the car. I take long road trips with my kids. Sometimes they really hate being strapped in. Sometimes they scream & yell at me in the worst way. My kids are high-strung, energetic (but I refuse to call them hyperactive), & loud. DD has trouble with personal boundaries & still has screaming temper tantrums at age 6. She will also kick, hit, spit & punch when she's very, very angry. DS's specialty is hurling toys at whomever he is cranky with at the moment, slamming doors, & screaming. And he thinks kicking me in the stomach is funny, amongst other things.

I am not AP or GD perfect by any measure. We use a combination of things with our children to help them learn how to function in the world around them (which is different for different families- cliched saying or not). Indeed, I don't even agree with all aspects of AP or GD. But we don't hit our kids (the previously mentioned few times I totally lost the plot excepted, & regretted) as discipline. Nor do we Ezzo them. And I can't really see why I'm even discussing this at MDC. Good grief.







:


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## captain optimism

Anyway, back to the NPR essay. I am wondering if anyone sent in a letter. I would like to hear some read on the radio. I think they do the letters on Thursday evenings.

If I were writing a letter, which I might be, I would probably emphasize the part about not _advocating_ spanking, as opposed to getting down to reasons why spanking is never justified. I think after this thread, i can see that some people will feel like, "Spanking can be justified if there is a safety issue"--in fact I know a lot of people IRL who feel that way. But I suppose, if I were writing a letter, I might use a phrase like "hard cases make hard law"--is that the phrase?

In general I would probably say that I have a lot more sympathy for someone who slips up and loses control and hits their child, or for someone who feels boxed in to hitting as the only alternative, than for someone who claims to have read many childrearing books and then advocates spanking. Since the books give many solutions which she did not try, etc.


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## Mamid

I'm defending parenting choices.

I >personally< hate Ezzo's tactics. But for others, it works for them. I am not going to argue the value of Ezzo's directives because to me, they have no value.

If it works for you, go with it. Children aren't born with manuals at the same time their placentas are. If a parent chooses to CIO from birth, do a 4hr schedule, etc, no matter how blue in the face I get screaming at them to stop, they won't if they think its right for them. Just like no matter how much I try to help a woman to breastfeed, if she doesn't want to do it, she won't. Or how much I warn about how deadly vaccines can be, if the parents don't believe me, they will just ignore me.

Can you not see how you are acting exactly like that? Essentially screaming at me over a choice I would make - I haven't yet but I would in the exact same position - because it is MY choice to make.

Parents have to make their own choices for their own children. You can second guess them all you want, but in the end, it is their responsibility and they have to live with what happens, not you.

Hind sight is 20/20. I sure as hell do not want the guilt of knowing because I didn't do what I believed would work, my child died in a car accident.

And that's the point isn't it? Some parents believe in GD philosophy in the same way that some people are militant vegans. Others take a looser approach. Yet others look at GD and think "Not in my house!" and don't even listen to those who advocate for it.

There comes a point where no amount of bribes, talking to, yelling, distractions or all the other non-violent approaches simply don't work. How are you supposed to get through to your child? Tie them up? Oh no.. can't do that! That's illegal restraints and child abuse! Can't yell at your child either. Can't let them roam free in the car because that's illegal and child endangerment. Can't stop every 5 minutes because then why bother going anywhere? Can't just stay at home because that's "not socializing" and it will get your butt kicked by CPS faster than you think. And always getting a babysitter, even for groceries or walking everywhere - that's not only punitive for the parents, it is downright stupid.

I read somewhere about using duct tape to keep junior in the car seat. Sure, that would work - but how certain are you that junior IS in the car seat if the duct tape is covering the buckles? Are they properly locked in? How can you tell if you can't see the buckles!


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## Mothra

Violence against children is not a parenting choice.


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## Mothra

Hit reply too soon.

You keep saying that the alternative to spanking is death and it just doesn't stand up. There is no guarantee that if you do hit a child, especially a toddler, that he or she is not going to turn around and do the same thing as soon as the sting wears off. Study after study has shown that children who are hit by their parents do not misbehave less often, but rather more often. Once again, as it has been stated over and over, hitting children does not work to correct behavior long term. I don't even know that I believe it works short term. I've seen kids get the crap beat out of them for running into the street turn around and do the same thing not ten minutes later.

It doesn't work. There is no excuse for deliberately inflicting pain on a child by hitting, even in the name of discipline or car safety, which I still don't get. I have what could be the most high strung toddler ever known to mankind. We have been all over the country, and part of Europe, in cars and planes. Never once has a situation presented itself in which I even considered hitting my child to get him to comply. First, it is cruel. Second, it doesn't work, but I can't believe the argument has to go that far.


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## cynthia mosher

Mamid I have asked that advocacy of violence against children not be posted. That would include posting to validate such violence. You are entitled to your opinion but not entitled to advocate such a choice at Mothering when it is so clearly against Mothering's parenting spirit and philosophy.

Let's return to the point of this thread in "Activism" which is to contact NPR and speak out against that program's message that physical violence can be used to control children. The activism here is not to defend a parent's hitting of their child or that it is okay to do so in the situations described. Those who wish to talk about how to keep children secured in their car seats, and the struggles and solution involved, can take the discussion to another forum - Parenting Issues perhaps.


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## sunnmama

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
Anyway, back to the NPR essay. I am wondering if anyone sent in a letter.

I sent this email:
I was saddened and frustrated by Link Nicoll's commentary on NPR regarding her and her husband's decision to spank their 3 year old son. I can certainly relate to their frustration when the boy refused to stay buckled; I've done some 1000+ mile roadtrips with my 3 year old, as well. But hitting is just as unacceptable as traveling unbuckled, and there is always a better choice. Sit in the back with the child, stop and take a break, feed him, make faces at him, tell stories, sing songs, empathize with his boredom, fatigue, and discomfort--these are the tools I have used to survive the road without hitting. Yes, it is a lot more work than delivering a smack, but our children are worth the effort.

I like the idea for your letter, Captain. I hope you send one! I think mine was filed in the circular file :LOL

RE: hitting as a parenting choice.....biting my tongue out of respect for Cynthia Mosher.


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## User101

I went back to the NPR site and re-looked at the link to the piece. Even their wording drives me nuts- "But on a hot, 1,200-mile road trip with her three-year-old son, commentator Link Nicoll and her husband were forced to rethink their approach."

They weren't forced- they backed themselves into a corner.


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## User101

Oh, and here is my letter:

I took great exception to Link Nicoll's commentary, "New-Age Child Rearing and the 'S' Word". I do not understand why not hitting someone smaller than you is new-age. I would think that it would be generally accepted that brute force is not an acceptable way of dealing with anyone, child or adult. Furthermore, I have probably read many of the same supposed-"new age" parenting books" (in reality, by the way, this is called "gentle discipline") and no where did I see an author advocate the wishy-washy, parent-centered approach Ms. Nicoll described. Good parenting takes time, and hard work, and sacrifice. Hitting is the easy way out- for the parents, not the child- and to go on National Public Radio and advocate hitting children is just plain irresponsible.
Annette Frontz
Williamsport, PA


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## Greaseball

Quote:

And always getting a babysitter, even for groceries or walking everywhere - that's not only punitive for the parents, it is downright stupid.
I have to go see my advisor at school. Appointments with him are for 15 minute increments. I will be getting a babysitter, because I don't think my older child would want to come with me and just sit there. Most likely, since we don't have any friends available, I will have to leave them with the grandparents, which means it will take 2 hours of driving so I can get childcare for my 15-minute appt. I don't feel punished or stupid - like you said, whatever works. Boring my child does not work for me.


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## Kinipela79

I sent an email...and am waiting my form letter reply! lol


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## Kam

Me, too, Jennifer. Let's compare notes when they come, huh? I'll be listening on Thursday!

By the way, the address I used was: [email protected]. Right?


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## crazy_eights

I think the e-mail is [email protected] to reply to 'All Things Considered', but one to the ombudsman will probably get forwarded to the right place.


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## Kate522

Okay, I haven't read all 10 pages of this debate. Maybe someone mentioned it earlier. My question is: why could the kid unbuckle his car seat? Something is very wrong there. My four year old can't unbuckle her seat. I know a two year who did and her mother called up Britex and they sent her a cover that stopped her baby from unbuckling the car seat. Why hadn't the parents called the car seat manufacturers to declare that product defective? Or to find out how to stop their child from unbuckling their seat? It seems a gross negligence to me.

BTW, I agree that spanking is not the answer, and a hot 1,200 mile car trip would not be my choice for a vacation.


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## Kam

Thanks, Chava.


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## owensmom

Hey Kate522 - sounds like it is a problem that many parents have, some kids have tricky little fingers that figure them out I guess! Many moms here posted about their kids being able to undo some or part of the car seat.


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## Kate522

Exactly. That's why if you are having a problem with your child unlatching the car seat, you should contact the car seat manufacturer or the FTSHA at ftsha.gov and COMPLAIN. It's a major safety issue. Look at the Britex recall. They take safety seriously as do all the car seat people. I bet they'll have solutions that we parents haven't thought of. I know there are some escape artists out there, but I'm sure there are cleverer solutions than spanking a child.


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## Arduinna

I didn't write a letter. Partly because I suspect that they put on this sensationistic stuff just hoping to rile people up. I'm not sure that I'd be encouraging them to do this more?

Not that any of you shouldn't have written, to each their own.


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## momsgotmilk4two

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kate522*
Exactly. That's why if you are having a problem with your child unlatching the car seat, you should contact the car seat manufacturer or the FTSHA at ftsha.gov and COMPLAIN. It's a major safety issue. Look at the Britex recall. They take safety seriously as do all the car seat people. I bet they'll have solutions that we parents haven't thought of. I know there are some escape artists out there, but I'm sure there are cleverer solutions than spanking a child.

It depends on the age of the child. I would say that it is not unreasonable for a 3 yr old to be able to unbuckle his own carseat. My 4 yr old can do it. We have a Britex, but it is one of the newer ones with the button to release it on the front as opposed to the top. The 4 yr old can still do it, but knows better than to do it in a moving vehicle. There isn't anything negligent about it imo. If they make it any harder to unbuckle, some adults wouldn't be able to do it. What are they supposed to do? If they totally childproof it then it would be really tricky to get the kid out and could be downright dangerous if you needed to get the child out quickly.


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## Mamid

at some point "childproofing" also becomes "adult proof" and then it becomes a hazard.

What is really scary is when you hand a toddler a "childproof" medicine bottle and they open it within a minute.

Or you watch them get through the childproofing locks and stuff that you've put around your place.

Or you watch them climb over baby gates meant to keep them out of rooms/areas they shouldn't go.

When that happens, you have to start putting in "mental barriers" as my other half described it. We did it with the car seat, we're working on the chemical closet now because he just got through the proofing yesterday.


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## Greaseball

There is no substitute for adult supervision. If my children could get through all that stuff I'd be forced to carry them in slings all day.


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