# raising grandchild hiv positive & mother was on pot...



## grandmaB440 (Sep 26, 2011)

Hello all.

I have not written in for a very long time. I have my kids growing up and now my 18 yr old son has an 18 yr old gf who found out yesterday that she's 6 weeks pregnant. She is making an appointment with Planned Parenthood today for an abortion. I have asked them if I can adopt the baby and they won't have any financial responsibility what-so-ever. I know the mother has mental issues and is pagan, wiccan, been labled bi-polar, manic depressed, and a cutter. I am Christian, conservative, kind, loving, non-judging, open and accepting (as much as possible) with her and all others.

I now am hurting and in severe distress over the idea that this girl might abort my first grandbaby. If she doesn't, I'm seriously worried about what am I really getting myself in for if this baby has all her problems mixed with my adopted son's problems, mixed with her using pot... I don't even know where to begin with asking questions! I'm trying to be numb so that the emotion doesn't destroy me...

worried grandma B4 40...


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## ~Kristina~ (Mar 11, 2006)

First off, I don't think being Pagan or Wiccan is a "problem". Secondly, http://www.mothering.com/pregnancy-birth/use-of-marijuana-during-pregnancy. Thirdly, how do you know a 6 week old embryo is HIV +?

I give you major kuddos for wanting to save your grandbaby and take care of him/her, but unfortunately this is their decision.


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## Carlin (Oct 14, 2006)

Good for you for stepping up and giving them another option! Either way though, it's their decision, no matter how hard it is for you.

I don't think you have to worry about the gf's religious choices affecting the baby, and honestly pot is not particularly concerning either. TBH, I'd rather a future mom smoke pot than cigarettes. I'm not quite following where the concern about HIV is coming from, but there are a number of strategies to help prevent mother to child transmission of HIV. If they do decide to let you raise the baby, I'm sure a health care provider will address those concerns. Mental health issues are of course concerning, but you have a heads up in advance to be on the lookout for any issues.

I can totally understand your worry, but a lot of thse are pure hypotheticals! Right now, you probably have enough to worry about just supporting your son and his gf through a difficult decision.

(Oops, just realized I was forum crashing. I'm definitely not a midwife, sorry!)


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## starrlamia (Dec 28, 2010)

as the others said, her religion has nothing to do with how the baby will turn out, and pot isnt great but isnt as bad as most people make it out to be. Is the mom HIV positive?

As for abortion, it's her choice and not yours, regardless of your beliefs about it you need to respect the fact that she is an independant person who can make her own choices. Being the bigger person means respecting someone's beliefs regardless of if you agree or not and still being supportive of that person.


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## grandmaB440 (Sep 26, 2011)

I brought up the Pagan/Wiccan because it's so different from my beliefs, nothing to do with mothering... I didn't allow my son(and her) to use pot & have sex in my home (around the younger siblings) and she disagreed with that so completely that now she really doesn't like me.

Despite that, I'm a stable home, with income, experience raising kids, she obviously likes my son (evidence that I must have done something right) and I am willing to take on another child. I have also contacted at least 2 other families that would be willing to adopt the child, but she said that if she has it, she'd want to raise it.

I did some reading online after I wrote this am and found out that the pot isn't such an issue like other drugs are... basically it MIGHT cause low birth weight, add, adhd or such, but that's about it. I'm not as worried about that. The mental issues I brought up cause even with this in her own life, I'm still willing knowing the possibilities...

I don't want my first grandchild to be killed... I want him/her to have the chance at a full life. I want everything for him/her... except death while he/she can't fight back...


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## grandmaB440 (Sep 26, 2011)

oh, HIV... the mother tested positive once and negative once... I don't know if she is or isn't.

I had the opportunity to say some poignant things to her, but didn't. I could have asked her if she already was devastated by loosing twins at 17 before getting with my son, how could she kill the 3rd child? I could have told her that the baby has a heart and spine and eyes forming right now, but didn't. I could have been brutal trying to save the life of this child, but I took her mentality and wellbeing into consideration. I'm struggling here crying all morning and just don't know what else to do. I know in reality, it's their decision, but things can be said to assist in decision making... I want to make sure I do all I can... It's still 2 days till she says she's getting it done, (where on earth will they come up with the money to do it???) and anything can happen.

(still seeking words of wisdom and peace from all you lovely ladies here...)


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## starrlamia (Dec 28, 2010)

The only wisdom and peace I can give you is that we are lucky enough to live in a society where a woman has the right to choose what happens with her body and what goes on inside of it. Whether you believe in abortion or not, really cant come into play with someone else's body. I am sure that at some point your son will bless you with a grandchild but it just isnt meant to happen right now.


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## Polliwog (Oct 29, 2006)

It really is their decision and you only have input if they ask for it. But, if they do decide to carry to term AND ask you to adopt the child, please join us in the adoptive and foster parenting forum. Many of us are parenting children who were born to parents with a wide range of physical, psychological, chemical, and other issues.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *grandmaB440*
> 
> I know in reality, it's their decision, but things can be said to assist in decision making... I want to make sure I do all I can...


tell her and your son that you love them and accept them unconditionally, and that whatever they decide at this difficult, difficult moment of their lives, you will always love them. Completely love and accept them, no matter what.

Drop ALL your judgements of every single thing about her. No woman wants to hand her child over to a judgmental person. You describe yourself as non-judgmental, but that isn't coming across to me on this thread, so I doubt that it's what you project to them.

If they make the choice to end the pregnancy, then mourn the loss the same way you would if she had miscarried. If that is praying, lighting a candle, crying on the should of a friend, or planting some flowers.

For many women I know who terminated pregnancies when they were young, it become a turning point in their own life. A moment of intense realization.

I'm not the same religion as you, and my religion teaches re-incarnation. I asked my spiritual adviser once about abortion, and was told that the spirit of the child made the choice to be part of the situation with full knowledge of the possible outcome, and was willing to take that role for the possible growth that it provided. And that if the abortion does happen, the spirit can be re-incarnated. Its chance for life isn't lost.

I know that your beliefs are different, but perhaps talking to your own spiritual adviser would be helpful -- not to discuss the rightness or wrongness of abortion, but to ponder if you believe that the spirit has already entered the fetus, and if so if it goes straight to heaven, or if the spirit enters later so still has an opportunity for a human life. Either option seems peaceful to me -- because in both cases, what is fundamentally the most important part of your first grandchild is whole no matter what happens.

You and I both believe that every person has a soul, and we both believe that the soul does not die and isn't harmed when the body passes away.

I, too, am sadden by abortion. I hear your grief coming across in your post, and I can only image the turmoil that your son and his girl friend are going through right now. I have tears in my eyes as I write this. I hope that sharing my spiritual views wasn't offensive in any way to you, I was hoping to offer you a path toward some measure of peace of mind at this difficult and painful moment for you all.

Peace


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Linda on the move*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

I dont know how that turned out that way. For other's reference:

Linda said the "For many women I know who terminated...." line and I said the stuff underneath the box. I cant seem to edit it to reflect the correct thing.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

I can see why you're heart broken about the possibility of the loss. My mom went through the same thing with my brother and his GF. Every friend I've had who has had an abortion has suffered dearly. Before and after. Their heart breaks too. They didn't go in the docs office with a smile on their face planning their afternoon shopping trip. Though I don't think abortion is a great way to go and I'm not for it, I was still there for them. The best thing you can do is build a relationship with her. If she does keep the baby, you want to be part of it. If she decides to give it up you want to be the one she chooses and if she does end it... can you be the one she comes to for support?


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

I would urge you to change your perspective and your outward attitude toward your son's GF

Understand that this is not about you and your feelings here but respect for her and what ever decision she makes. You don't come across as being supportive.

By showing such emotion and condemnation you may end up with the completely opposite effect you wanted.

The GF may feel that you are pressuring her and she may be turned off by excepting your prospective and this may factor into her decision as to wanting to abort. If someone made me feel this way I would not want to having anything to do with being a part of this family.

If she does abort I would not say another word about to her if you can not say you respect her.

Personally I could see that she may have a change of heart regarding your son when all is done and your conduct may contribute to her not wanting to have a relationship with him if she sees how she is viewed and how you act towards her.

While you can have all the feelings you do, when you don't show her that hers are also just as valid, you are setting yourself (and possible other GF's down the road) up to bad relationships-IMO

you made it clear how you feel-look at how you are making her feel-respect is a two way street and please remember this is her choice, not yours

if you are unable to deal or except her choice please don't take it out on her


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Wow. This woman is sad because her grandchild might be killed in utero, and everyone thinks it's appropriate to tell her they feel they're "lucky" to live in a society with abortion, or that it's OK because according to their beliefs, the baby will be reincarnated or isn't "meant to be", or criticise her for being judgmental because she was worried pot might have an effect on the baby?

SERIOUSLY, people? She hasn't browbeaten her son's girlfriend with pro-life arguments. She has offered an alternative that might turn her own life upside down. She's hurting, and it sounds like a very painful situation to be in. Yes, it's "not about her" in that it principally affects the girlfriend and (to a lesser extent) her son; but that doesn't mean it's irrelevant! I know a woman who was devastated when her daughter had an abortion - it was a real, traumatic experience FOR HER. How about a bit of compassion?

GrandmaB440, I'm sorry you're in this position.  I don't have any good advice for you, but it must be really hard to be in that position. (FWIW, the transmission rate of HIV from mother to baby is surprisingly low, I think, and there are ways to minimise the risk even further; just 'cause you mentioned it.)


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

So sorry GrandmaB440. I couldn't imagine being in that position either. No real advice, except that if your son's gf goes through with it and stays with your son, I hope you and she are able to come to a better relationship. For the sake of keeping your son and potential future DiL and grandkids in your life.







:


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smokering*
> 
> it's OK because according to their beliefs, the baby will be reincarnated or isn't "meant to be",


you are referring to my post, but that wasn't what I said. What I said was that in wrestling with this difficult issue, I turned to my spiritual beliefs and my spiritual adviser, which provided me with solace. And I advised her to do the same. In her first post she brought up her religious beliefs, I was pointing out that those beliefs can bring her a measure of peace at this difficult and painful time.

Nothing in my post or my feelings minimizes the pain the OPer is currently feeling, which comes quite clearly through her writing. I feel nothing but compassion for her.

As I was reading your post, the Serenity Prayer came to mind:

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change
The courage to change the things I can
And the wisdom to know the difference.

In some situations, the most we can pray for is serenity. Knowing when serenity is all that we can pray for is quite different than judging someone or lacking compassion.


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## tincia (Aug 9, 2011)

My heart goes out to you! You r in a very difficult situation. What others said is true..u do not have any rights in this if they choose to go through with the abortion..but that doesn't mean u have to like it! That is part of what makes this such a difficult decision, u have luttle to no control! I think if u very gently state that u will be there for them no matter what, but that u love your grandchild and would like to see them give their baby the gift of life, and will support them in doing so any way possible.
Could u talk with your son and let him know where u r coming from? I think a good point was made about talking with your pastor/spiritual leader to help u with this and provide insight.


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## Mrs. Bratton (Jan 27, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smokering*
> 
> Wow. This woman is sad because her grandchild might be killed in utero, and everyone thinks it's appropriate to tell her they feel they're "lucky" to live in a society with abortion, or that it's OK because according to their beliefs, the baby will be reincarnated or isn't "meant to be", or criticise her for being judgmental because she was worried pot might have an effect on the baby?
> 
> ...


Seriously? I was completely appalled at this thread for the opposite reason. What kind of person shames someone for the hard decision to abort and offers to take their baby? I would be completely outraged and freaked out if anyone approached me with that while I was pregnant and considering abortion.

IF it is EVER appropriate to approach someone with something like that a simple, "You know I am always here and, if adoption is something you would consider I would gladly raise the baby." Nothing more than that.


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## FarmerBeth (Mar 9, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mrs. Bratton*
> 
> Seriously? I was completely appalled at this thread for the opposite reason. What kind of person shames someone for the hard decision to abort and offers to take their baby? I would be completely outraged and freaked out if anyone approached me with that while I was pregnant and considering abortion.
> 
> IF it is EVER appropriate to approach someone with something like that a simple, "You know I am always here and, if adoption is something you would consider I would gladly raise the baby." Nothing more than that.


I didn't see the OP saying that she shamed the GF for wanting to abort in any way. I see that she is hurting thinking of the life of her grandchild and wanting to help and in need of knowing how. I think all you can do is be as open, and non judging and present for your son and his GF as you can, and let them know how much you love them and want to help. If their decision sends you beyond what you can manage to be present with them and still handle, be gently honest and let them know that you support their decisions but you need to remove yourself a bit because you aren't able to be neutral about this. As human beings, we all have times that no matter how unconditional we see our love as being, our negative emotions can get the better of us and we may behave differntly than in the gentle way we wished. Be honest and gentle with yourself, too.


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Quote:


> IF it is EVER appropriate to approach someone with something like that a simple, "You know I am always here and, if adoption is something you would consider I would gladly raise the baby." Nothing more than that.


There's no evidence that the OP DID say anything more than that. As per post 6 of this thread, she was very restrained about her feelings and beliefs out of consideration for the mother's feelings. She made a deliberate effort not to "shame" her, as you put it.

Honestly, I don't get the "under no circumstances must you hint that you think abortion is a bad thing" mentality in this thread. If the mother is so mentally fragile that she'll have some kind of meltdown at the realisation her boyfriend's mother is pro-life, she shouldn't be making a decision as momentous as whether or not to terminate. The OP obviously recognises that the mother has a legal right to terminate, but that does not mean she (the OP) is somehow obliged to believe that it is a moral choice, or to pretend that she does.

Obviously being unkind to the mother wouldn't be helpful to anyone, but why should she have to "support their decision"? What does that even mean? If it means "refrain from locking the mother in a room for nine months", well, yeah, duh. But if it means "pretending that she feels either choice is equally morally valid" when she clearly doesn't, well, no. She's allowed to be true to her beliefs. I've come across a kind of "It's OK to be pro-life deep down inside as long as you still drive your friends to the abortion clinic" mentality before, and I think I see it on this thread; and I don't get it. It's like saying "It's OK to be opposed to adultery as long as you help your friend set up assignations and don't breathe a word that you think her cheating is wrong; otherwise you're interfering with her freedom of choice" - that being, apparently, the cardinal sin these days. (Yet, here on MDC, people are happy to use emotional arguments and persuasive techniques to persuade people not to do things within their legal rights, such as circumcising their babies, formula-feeding, whatever; even though these things, too, impact on a woman's freedom of choice and how she uses her body!)

Not to mention that legal "freedom of choice" does not mean "a choice made without considering all aspects of the question". Heck, at 18 the mother's decision-making faculties aren't fully developed. As parents (or rather, relevant adults) we recognise that in most scenarios, giving our opinion - generally without coercion, one hopes - on questions ranging from "should I quit Uni and become a rock star?" to "my boyfriend left me, should I torch his car?" to "is marijuana OK?" Why is it OK for a person to express opinions (even strong, even morality-based) opinions on subjects like that, but suddenly taboo when it comes to something like abortion (which a huge percentage of women regret, incidentally)? Why is "Marijuana can damage a growing brain, is against the law, and I would be disappointed if you did it" OK to say, but "There is a living baby in you which I believe has a soul, and I would be very sad if he didn't get to live" so sinister?

OP, thinking about your offer to adopt, I can see why the mother would be reluctant. No offense, but if I were a pregnant Wiccan, I probably wouldn't want my child brought up by a conservative Christian either, you know? What she might (possibly) prefer would be an offer simply to help in any way you can. She might want to bring up the baby herself, but be worried about going to Uni with a baby - you could offer to watch the baby during the daytime. She might be worried about money - you could offer to help get her set up in a house, or whatever. If you have a good relationship, maybe you could find out specifically why she doesn't want to have the baby - and if it's anything you can help with (assuming you're willing to take it on), you could (gently, tactfully) offer to help. People don't abort for no reason, and lack of support (financial, child-care, emotional, etc) is often a big factor; so offering to help, but not in a way that would take ownership of her child or control over her/his bringing-up, might be something she'd appreciate.

What does your son feel about all this? Would he step up to his responsibilities as a dad if she continued the pregnancy?


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## trekkingirl (Dec 2, 2009)




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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


> Obviously being unkind to the mother wouldn't be helpful to anyone, but why should she have to "support their decision"? What does that even mean?


IMO - it mean when you don't--- you are showing disrespect

the "choice" *is not the OP to make* and not being "supportive" of the choice the GF makes shows you do not agree and you risk (strongly) that you will cause serious relationship problems (rift- alienation) between the OP and her son not to mention the GF

I'm sure all the negative things the OP wrote about the GF could easily be reversed and said about the OP if the GF had written it---the OP has a lot to loose her and not just a first grandchild

you read time after time (here) about new parents who have serious "issues" with in-laws and they end up out of the child's life ---ALL because the do not support the decisions the parents make---really not any different-IMO

*choice* is not the grandmother's in this case or if a child is here later on

ETA -

Quote:


> Heck, at *18 the mother's decision-making faculties aren't fully developed*.


the opposite can also be said - we put the "young" mother be it 18 or 16 or what every "young age" you want to say, who has the child and who questions and who also does not have a medicated birth, who BF, who is non-circ, delayed or non-vac, etc., as an intelligent super woman yet someone who is "young" (for what ever reason or several reasons) chooses to abort becomes a non-correct decision maker- what crazy irony???


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

serenbat: Sorry, but I don't get what you're saying. I never said the "choice" was the OP's.

Quote:


> the opposite can also be said - we put the "young" mother be it 18 or 16 or what every "young age" you want to say, who has the child and who questions and who also does not have a medicated birth, who BF, who is non-circ, delayed or non-vac, etc., as an intelligent super woman yet someone who is "young" (for what ever reason or several reasons) chooses to abort becomes a non-correct decision maker- what crazy irony???


That wasn't what I said (although actually, being pro-life, I agree with it, and how exactly is it ironic to feel that making a decision you believe is morally wrong is, well, morally wrong, and therefore "non-correct"; whereas making parenting decisions based on good science in a culture which largely denies that science is pretty awesome? But anyhoo). I'm objecting to the idea that surrounding someone - anyone, but particularly someone whose decision-making faculties aren't entirely up and running yet - only with approving silence or yes-men on an issue is the only ethical approach; and that disagreeing with her actions is impinging upon her freedom of choice. There seems to be a feeling out there that a choice is only uncoerced if nobody else's arguments or thoughts have any bearing on the result; but that doesn't seem logical to me. Marrying DH was my choice, but that doesn't mean I didn't take my parents' opinion of him into consideration; or that their having and expressing an opinion on the matter was somehow a breach of common decency. (Perhaps a better analogy: one of my sisters ended up marrying someone my parents didn't entirely approve of, and because she was secure in her decision, they didn't change her decision; but they did give her the opportunity to consider all sides of the question. Of course, they had a fairly good relationship, whereas I don't know what the OP's relationship with the mother is like, which would obviously change what it's appropriate for her to say.)


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

NM - I know better than to talk abortion at all...


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

The OP has not uttered one thing positive that she even likes about the GF in any of her posts---personally, I would never take a person's (who felt like that about me) opinion into account for anything.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Uh... I think the OP is another Woman, who came to other Women for advice. I don't think we should be short changing her because we have been able to pick apart her post, note that we have different beliefs then write her off. That's pretty sad if that's how this is going to work.

We should be only offering advice on how she can positively be part of the lives of her son, his girlfriend and the potential child. How she can help without stepping on toes. She's still a mother and she still feels like she needs to help her child. What in the name of Judas is wrong with that? You're going to turn off the moment your child turns 18 and not even think to worry about him/her and their choices?


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## FarmerBeth (Mar 9, 2011)

OP, we haven't heard back. How is everything going?


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smokering*
> 
> >Obviously being unkind to the mother wouldn't be helpful to anyone, but why should she have to "support their decision"?


I think the question is more about how to build a solid relationship with her son and his girlfriend.

The Oper's actions and words at this time could scar that relationship beyond repair. No matter how one feels about abortion, destroying the relation with one's child is something most parents want to avoid.

I think that some pro-life people have a hard time understanding exactly how hurtful it is to a person in crisis to make the needs of a fetus more important than the needs of the breathing human being standing in front of them.


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

See, I don't see how "solid relationship" equals "supporting a decision one thinks is wrong". Surely it's not much of a relationship if its success is built on one person hiding what she feels, and essentially lying to the other in order to not rock the boat? That sounds very dysfunctional to me. A good relationship should be able to weather "I love you, but I think what you're doing is wrong and it makes me sad". The OP can still be supportive of her son (or his girlfriend) as people without supporting her decision to abort.

Quote:


> I think that some pro-life people have a hard time understanding exactly how hurtful it is to a person in crisis to make the needs of a fetus more important than the needs of the breathing human being standing in front of them.


The OP seems pretty aware of it, given post 6; but I think that statement belies a lack of understanding of the pro-life position. To someone who believes the fetus is a person, he or she IS a "human being standing in front of them" (not a breathing one, technically, but a living one); and his/her "needs" are rather more basic and urgent: simply life. No, the fetus won't get hurt feelings if it's aborted, but it will get, you know, killed; so prioritising the person who's more powerless and has more to lose (everything, in fact) hardly makes someone a callous monster. I don't think I can get more explicit without getting into a full-on abortion debate, which I assume is still against the UA (and kinda OT to the original topic, anyway - sorry, OP); but I really hate the whole "pro-lifers are mean" angle. Apart from the odd sadistic individual, pro-lifers consider hurt feelings collateral damage for a higher purpose; just as pro-choicers consider the life of fetuses collateral damage for a higher purpose. I think anyone with any empathy and imagination - regardless of her own position on the issue - can recognise that their are caring people with good intentions on both sides of the debate.


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smokering*
> 
> *See, I don't see how "solid relationship" equals "supporting a decision one thinks is wrong". Surely it's not much of a relationship if its success is built on one person hiding what she feels, and essentially lying to the other in order to not rock the boat? That sounds very dysfunctional to me. A good relationship should be able to weather "I love you, but I think what you're doing is wrong and it makes me sad"*. The OP can still be supportive of her son (or his girlfriend) as people without supporting her decision to abort.
> 
> The OP seems pretty aware of it, given post 6; but I think that statement belies a lack of understanding of the pro-life position. To someone who believes the fetus is a person, he or she IS a "human being standing in front of them" (not a breathing one, technically, but a living one); and his/her "needs" are rather more basic and urgent: simply life. No, the fetus won't get hurt feelings if it's aborted, but it will get, you know, killed; so prioritising the person who's more powerless and has more to lose (everything, in fact) hardly makes someone a callous monster. I don't think I can get more explicit without getting into a full-on abortion debate, which I assume is still against the UA (and kinda OT to the original topic, anyway - sorry, OP); but I really hate the whole "pro-lifers are mean" angle. Apart from the odd sadistic individual, pro-lifers consider hurt feelings collateral damage for a higher purpose; just as pro-choicers consider the life of fetuses collateral damage for a higher purpose. I think anyone with any empathy and imagination - regardless of her own position on the issue - can recognise that their are caring people with good intentions on both sides of the debate.


I lean towards agreeing with the bolded. I also think cementing a good relationship with the gf (possible future DiL, etc) is very important. Part of forming that bond would be not alienating her. I get the sense that the OP and the son's gf are presumably not at the level of being comfortable enough in their affection for each other to say, "I love you, but..." in a situation like this. You kwim? How one definres "support" comes into play as well. I guess this just raises more questions than answers them, but it's what I've been thinking about re: this thread. How is it possible to, in practical language, "support" someone who is doing something that you strongly feel is wrong?


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:


> The OP can still be supportive of her son (or his girlfriend) as people without supporting her decision to abort.


this can be true but it doesn't come across that the OP is even close this place


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## mylilmonkeys (Oct 15, 2010)

My oldest son is only a few years younger than yours, and this sort of situation is my worst nightmare. We talk almost daily about how to handle relationships as he is entering high school and facing all new challenges. I am wondering how your relationship is with your son? If it were me, and if I did not have a very solid relationship with the gf before this crisis, I might tend to discuss things more with my son than try to build a relationship with the gf in a crisis. Also, instead of offering specific suggestions based on what you think they are worried about, I would ask what their concerns and fears are about raising a child, and make the point that I would do anything in my power to ease those difficulties and make keeping the baby as do-able an option as possible. One thing that sends up huge red flags in this situation is that the gf already has emotional challenges. The trauma of an abortion coupled with these challenges could end up being more than this young lady can cope with. Does she have a counselor?

My prayers are with you and everyone involved.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

" Heck, at 18 the mother's decision-making faculties aren't fully developed."

This could also be a great reason NOT to have a child at 18. If a person isnt developed enough to be making a decision about abortion, then how on earth can you assume they are developed enough to have a child?


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## beenmum (Nov 29, 2010)

If the mother is so mentally fragile that she'll have some kind of meltdown at the realisation her boyfriend's mother is pro-life, she shouldn't be making a decision as momentous as whether or not to terminate. The OP obviously recognises that the mother has a legal right to terminate, but that does not mean she (the OP) is somehow obliged to believe that it is a moral choice, or to pretend that she does.

Then WHO should make this decision?

I'm sorry but if the Gf is so mentally fragile she shoudlnt be raising a child.

I dont understand why anyone gets to choose if this is a moral choice for another person. Or why this person even gets a say or an opinion about someone elses pregnancy.

I am more intrested on why her son has not been mentioned in more then passing. This is his child . He needs to step up and either be ready to financially support this child or emotionally support his Ex if she chooses to abort. Then he needs to get an HIV test done every 6months and take charge of his life.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *beenmum*
> 
> >I dont understand why anyone gets to choose if this is a moral choice for another person.


Exactly. Her body, her choice.


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Quote:


> This could also be a great reason NOT to have a child at 18. If a person isnt developed enough to be making a decision about abortion, then how on earth can you assume they are developed enough to have a child?


Which is why her getting both sides of the issue is a good idea. Nothing can be done about the fact that she's 18, obviously.

Quote:


> I dont understand why anyone gets to choose if this is a moral choice for another person.


That... is one of the weirdest statements I've ever read. Nobody "chooses" if something is a moral choice; people simply believe something is a moral choice, or not. Are you telling me you've never looked at anyone else's actions and judged them to be wrong because of the harm they inflict on someone else? Really? Child molesters, serial killers, adulterers, Stalin? If your moral code holds that killing unborn babies is wrong, then OF COURSE you will view it as an immoral choice in nearly all circumstances. "Her body, her choice" has absolutely nothing to do with that, any more than it applies to any other moral question. If your daughter lies to you, do you say "Oh well, her tongue, her choice"? If your husband cheats on you, do you say "Ach, his penis, his choice"?

Again, this is nothing to do with the legality of abortion. Everybody here, including the OP, recognises that the mother has a LEGAL right to abort. My ONLY point is that just because something is legal does not mean one is obliged to believe it is moral, or pretend to. I was responding to the many posters who implied that the OP had some kind of moral imperative to "support" a decision which, to judge from her posts, she believes would result in the needless slaughter of her grandkid. I don't think she does. What her reaction should be depends very largely on the kind of relationship she has with her son and his girlfriend; but if they're close enough to be discussing it and asking her opinion, I do NOT believe she should have to hide her sorrow and horror under a pasted-on smile of "Of course, dear, whatever you like". I would have thought MDCers, of all people, would be able to grasp that.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smokering*
> if they're close enough to be discussing it and asking her opinion, I do NOT believe she should have to hide her sorrow and horror under a pasted-on smile of "Of course, dear, whatever you like". I would have thought MDCers, of all people, would be able to grasp that.


But they are past that point. The OPer has already emphatically told them what she thinks. The OPer made it clear to them that she is willing to take on the raising of this child, who she believes will be completely screwed up.

The question was about what to do AFTER that. After, as a parent, you've made it abundantly clear what you think of a particular choice, then what?

Although few of us will find ourselves in this exact same scenario, most of us will eventually have our adult children make choices we disagree with. Once we've said our piece and had our wonderful advice ignored, then what?


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Quote:


> The question was about what to do AFTER that. After, as a parent, you've made it abundantly clear what you think of a particular choice, then what?
> 
> Although few of us will find ourselves in this exact same scenario, most of us will eventually have our adult children make choices we disagree with. Once we've said our piece and had our wonderful advice ignored, then what?


Depends on how strongly we feel about the choice and the nature of our relationship with our kids, I guess. I can think of circumstances in which I'd say "ehh, fait accompli, no big deal", and circumstances in which I'd have to say "I can't talk about this with you, and I need my space from you for a while". I don't think reconciliation is ever impossible - heck, I have a relative by marriage who killed two of his family members (he was mentally ill), and the remaining one (his dad) visited him in prison and came to his wedding and has been fairly supportive of him the whole way through. But there will be times when people will need to cut off contact for a while, or assert a strict "please do not bring this up to me" rule, for their own sanity. I imagine some people on this thread might feel that way if their child grew up and joined a pro-life group, for instance.


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## FarmerBeth (Mar 9, 2011)

I think respectfully asking for space when, as a parent, you find you are past the point where you can be constructively supportive, is a good thing to know how to do. Practicing non judging, unconditional love is a lifetime work in progress for most people, and I think everyone has limits at which point complete acceptance becomes too difficult. It is so much better to ask for space than to say or do something hurtful because you are coming from a place of pain. As an adult, I had one parent (my father) who respectfully asked for space (different moral issue in question, but the principle applies) and one who didn't recognize her limit and went too far in what she said. It took a cross country move, nearly four years and me having a child before we were ready to be in the same room again. I personally think it's appropriate that the OP stated her opinion of the abortion and that she let them know how she was willing to support them. I think it's OK that she may have a limit point and might not be able to be completely openly supportive. What is not OK is burying that feeling and not knowing when to step back and take a break and damage her relationship with her son, whom she clearly loves. This situation is definitely tough, I hope and pray I will not have to deal with such a situation, and I don't think it is easy or cut and dry to be supportive or non judging. My wishes and prayers are with the OP that she can find some place of peace regardless of the final decision made by her son and his GF. I think we're past the two days for the appointment and I hope you and your son and his GF are coping.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

uh, I think I'm going to agree with Farmer on this one. She stated how she felt. She can't change the way she initially reacted. Those are ideals and emotions that are hard to change. She offered them support. Her intentions were good. She just wants to help and she probably feels so out of control with what is going on. It's honestly better to voice your opinion than the keep your mouth shut sometimes. Especially if you're a parent. It's pretty hard to shut that part of you off.


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## beenmum (Nov 29, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smokering*
> 
> I do NOT believe she should have to hide her sorrow and horror under a pasted-on smile of "Of course, dear, whatever you like". I would have thought MDCers, of all people, would be able to grasp that.


Having kids doesnt make on an authority on morality. Why would MDCers have an extra sensibility to this topic?


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *beenmum*
> 
> Having kids doesnt make on an authority on morality. Why would MDCers have an extra sensibility to this topic?


Possibly because most of us are more involved in our childrens lives than most. It's hard when you walked beside them for so long offering your guidance and now you have to just watch them make all their decision and mistakes. You're still their parent, you still love them, you want the best for them and you hope that they can do positive things with their lives.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Just a reminder that abortion debate is NOT allowed on MDC. I would prefer to keep this thread open for suggestions to the OP, but if it develves further into abortion debate, it will be removed.

Thank you for you cooperation,

TiredX2


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *beenmum*
> 
> Having kids doesnt make on an authority on morality. Why would MDCers have an extra sensibility to this topic?


I agree. In fact, with all the horrid MIL stories on this board, you'd think most MDCers would be screaming "They are adults, its not your business what they choose to do with their bodies." This situation is the exact reason that DH and I never told MIL or my parents about decisions regarding our bodies. For us that has included abortion, experimental drug use, sex with other people, tattoos, and more regular use of alcohol and tobacco than our parents.

We never talk to them about these issues because we know what the reaction would be: some form of entitlement about how we treat our bodies. We are big kids now, who can make adult decisions about our bodies and choose to do things that we enjoy and think are fun. I hope when my kids are grown I have the sense to remember that just because I gave birth to them doesnt mean I get to have a feeling of entitlement over their body for the rest of their life. When parents of adults make situations all about them, it makes the adult child inclined not to tell them things. For example, my mother made a bunch of judgmental comments on my wedding day because I "put graffiti all over her child's perfect body created by God" when she looked down and noticed that I had tattoos on my feet less than three minutes before I had to walk down the aisle. Parents being judgmental about the decisions their adult child makes often times comes off as making the situation all about them instead of like they are trying to help.

I think its likely that this young girl is going through a hard time and she probably thinks her boyfriend's mom is making everything all about how she feels, not how the girl who is actually pregnant and having to make a decision feels. Having both a mother and a MIL who take almost all the happy or stressful times and turn it into how THEY feel about MY happy or stressful time, I would say the OP should let the girl know she is there if she needs to talk, that she would be willing to help raise the baby, and to please let her know if there is anything she can do- ONCE. And then let it go, and not say another word about it other than maybe asking if she wants to talk or how she feels AFTER the girl has made her decision.

Ive been with DH since I was 18, and there are a lot of really judgy things about his mom that I still havent been able to forget from those first few years we were together.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> In fact, with all the horrid MIL stories on this board, you'd think most MDCers would be screaming "They are adults, its not your business what they choose to do with their bodies." This situation is the exact reason that DH and I never told MIL or my parents about decisions regarding our bodies. For us that has included abortion, experimental drug use, sex with other people, tattoos, and more regular use of alcohol and tobacco than our parents.
> We never talk to them about these issues because we know what the reaction would be: some form of entitlement about how we treat our bodies.


yep. I tell my parents very, very little about anything in my life. They like to tell me what they think of everything and I'm over it, so I don't have real conversations with them.









I would really prefer to have a very different kind of relationship with my children when they are grown. I would like them to know that I love them and trust them no matter what (even when they make mistakes) and that even if they make a choice I wouldn't, I'll still be here for them. No matter what. It's partly because I never had that from my own parents that I really want to provide it for my kids.

For me, that's part of what unconditional love is.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smokering*
> 
> See, I don't see how "solid relationship" equals "supporting a decision one thinks is wrong".


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smokering*
> I can think of circumstances in which I'd say "ehh, fait accompli, no big deal", and circumstances in which I'd have to say "I can't talk about this with you, and I need my space from you for a while".


We have very different ideas about what constitutes as "strong relationship." To me, a relationship where one person stops speaking to the other when they don't do what they are told isn't a strong relationship.

I can imagine scenarios where I wouldn't allow my adult child to live at home (such as if they were currently engaging in activities that were illegal), but I can't image anything that would cause me to stop speaking to them. I've been on the other end of those conversations. I've no intention to ever, ever repeat them.

(and of course I talk to my kids about all sorts of decisions that will come up in their lives. They know my views. They also know that they can have other views and still be totally and completely loved and accepted. They know my love for them is unconditional.)


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Quote:


> Having kids doesnt make on an authority on morality. Why would MDCers have an extra sensibility to this topic?


I never said having kids made one an authority on morality; sorry if my statement was ambiguous. But the general "vibe" on MDC is, or used to be, "just because a parenting practice is legal and/or mainstream doesn't make it right". Look at the Case Against Circumcision forum. It's full of people who don't take their friends'/relatives' decision to circumcise lightly, and when someone posts saying "Ugh, my SIL is going to circumcise her boy and it makes me sick, the poor baby, what can I do?", people don't generally respond by saying "Support her or you'll ruin your relationship with her", or "It's her legal right, how dare you judge her"; nor indeed "You haven't said anything nice about your SIL in this post, what a horrible person you are". They're more likely to say "I know, it's awful, I had to drop a friendship over this because I couldn't look her in the eye knowing what she did to that sweet innocent baby". Some people even recommend laying on the guilt trips or pushing information beyond the normal boundaries of politeness. Now, whether that's right or wrong, they're not doing it because they're horrible people who want to cause the mother to suffer, or want to control her body (after all, it is her hands which will have to change nappies, her eyes which will have to look at the baby's penis from time to time). They generally consider any hurt feelings or ruined friendships to be an unfortunate side effect of striving for the greater good (ie, protecting the baby's right to bodily integrity).

And I've seen the same attitude time and time again on MDC on all sorts of issues. Formula feeding, front-facing carseats, feeding kids junk, spanking, whatever. When children are (in the perception of MDCers) being harmed, most posters here don't fall back on "but it's the mother's legal right to do XYZ". They consider that irrelevant to the issue: everybody knows it to be the case, but most posters draw a very clear distinction between the legality and morality of the case. (As, indeed, many MDCers do about things which ARE illegal - marijuana smoking, raw milk, whatever.)

So I can't help but find it a little disingenuous that everyone's repeating the "but it's her legal right" line here. Nobody's been debating that. It's not the point.

Quote:


> I agree. In fact, with all the horrid MIL stories on this board, you'd think most MDCers would be screaming "They are adults, its not your business what they choose to do with their bodies."


That is indeed another common MDC vibe, but there are two people's bodies involved in abortion. And MDCers also tend to be pretty strong on people not doing what's bad for their children's bodies. I don't think I've ever heard "She's an adult, if she chooses to feed her six-week-old baby Sprite it's not your business" - KWIM?

[ETA: Not that I'm trying to imply MDC is generally pro-life; in fact, I've noticed the opposite. I'm just noticing people using arguments on this thread that they don't use about parenting choices they actually think are wrong, and that makes me wonder if they really stand for those principles in general, or are just coming into this thread to berate the OP for being pro-life in any way they can.]

Quote:


> We have very different ideas about what constitutes as "strong relationship." To me, a relationship where one person stops speaking to the other when they don't do what they are told isn't a strong relationship.


Don't be rude, please. "When they don't do what they're told" is a gross mischaracterisation of what I said. "When they do something you think is highly immoral" would be a better description. And would you really "completely accept", say, a son who was a serial rapist, or made a constant stream of anti-women comments every time he opened his mouth, or who joined the KKK? What people do and who they are are not separate things. There are things which can, and should, legitimately break a relationship, permanently or temporarily; and other things that can, and should, require a "time out" when one person's too upset to interact nicely for a while. You've never said to your SO "I'm too mad to talk to you right now, I'm going for a walk"? You've never had a "cooling-off" period with a friend after a fight? You've never had a friend with whom you avoid the topic of politics or religion, because you know his opinions differ to yours and you'll just end up getting mad at each other?


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## grassisgreener1334 (Nov 24, 2006)

This post has been removed due to privacy reasons.


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## trekkingirl (Dec 2, 2009)

*smokering *you're a very gifted writer! Everything I felt about the vibe of this thread is exactly what you typed out. Only I have a hard time putting feelings into words. So I read a lot of threads and rarely respond. The next time I need to have a talk with my boss, can you be my translator ?!?


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smokering*
> 
> "Ugh, my SIL is going to circumcise her boy and it makes me sick, the poor baby, what can I do?", people don't generally respond by saying "Support her or you'll ruin your relationship with her", or "It's her legal right, how dare you judge her"; nor indeed "You haven't said anything nice about your SIL in this post, what a horrible person you are". T.


IMO, there is a big difference between how a young adult treats their OWN body and how adults treat innocent babies and children. If a mom wants to get upset that her 19 year old has a tattoo, she is being ridicuolous. If a mom wants to get upset that her kid is feeding her grandbaby sprite at 6 weeks and cutting his penis up, its completely different.

And, please, let me know if I need to remove this part, but it all goes back to what you believe in regarding the topic at hand.

Personally, I believe that embryos are not the same as living, breathing human beings. Im against the death penalty, against child abuse, and against circ because IMO those are all in violation of human rights.IMO, If you can not surrvive outside the womb yet, you are not yet eligible for human rights.

I just dont think saying that MDCers who care about babies and whether or not their SIL circs is AT ALL the same as saying that parents should know when to stop overparenting their adult children.

Edited for the addition of clarifying that my beliefs are personal, not fact.


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> IMO, there is a big difference between how a young adult treats their OWN body and how adults treat innocent babies and children. If a mom wants to get upset that her 19 year old has a tattoo, she is being ridicuolous. If a mom wants to get upset that her kid is feeding her grandbaby sprite at 6 weeks and cutting his penis up, its completely different.
> And, please, let me know if I need to remove this part, but it all goes back to what you believe in regarding the topic at hand. Personally, embryos are not the same as living, breathing human beings. Im against the death penalty, against child abuse, and against circ because IMO those are all in violation of human rights. *If you can not surrvive outside the womb yet, you are not yet eligible for human rights.*
> I just dont think saying that MDCers who care about babies and whether or not their SIL circs is AT ALL the same as saying that parents should know when to stop overparenting their adult children.


I'm not stepping into a debate about abortion, but to the bolded....that's not fact- that's your own personal opinion about in-utero babies. Many people see it differently.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Edited to reflect your point.


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smokering*


" there are two people's bodies involved in abortion"

But, you know, while we are clarifying what is fact vs. what is opinion.....I feel like MDC is always quick to jump on these debates to remind us that abortion debate is not hosted here as soon as anyone who is prochoice speaks up, but pro life comments like this can be slipped in without anyone blinking an eye.


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## Sol_y_Paz (Feb 6, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *grandmaB440*
> I have my kids growing up and now my 18 yr old son has an 18 yr old gf who found out yesterday that she's 6 weeks pregnant. She is making an appointment with Planned Parenthood today for an abortion.
> 
> I now am hurting and in severe distress over the idea that this girl might abort my first grandbaby.


Totally understandable that you are in severe distress. It is terrible to think your first grand baby will never be born and how all that would have been might not be, how that will effect not only you, the baby, and your own children and their families in the present and future for their whole lives. I am so sorry you are going through this, I have nothing to offer except that confirm you are indeed going through a terrible situation and I can understand you wanting to help and do anything in your power to help.

You mention your faith, can you talk with some leaders in your church and also get some counseling for yourself personally to help during this difficult time. Some people may have their own thoughts of what they "might think, feel, or do" if this happened to them and their own children but really, you are not thinking in theories, this is real life for you, don't let anyone belittle your emotions, feelings, or kindness and intention to help in a really tough situation.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

I think it is really ridiculous to be debating the morality of abortion on this thread. OP's post isn't really about abortion or this girlfriend. It is about worrying about the health and well-being of her grandchild and grieving the possibility that she may not be able to meet her first grandchild. I think we should all be able to offer her support for that. While some may feel OP is judging behind the scenes, the fact is, everyone judges, including those of you who are calling OP out on judging this girl. She has not brow beaten the girlfriend or her son.

OP--I am sorry you're in this situation. Though I haven't ever been in the same position, I imagine that I'd be really sad, worried, and stressed. I hope you can find peace one way or another. Maybe talking with your religious leader will help. Please remember that you are not responsible for the decisions your son and his girlfriend make. Though it is normal to grieve, please remember that you have offered them what you can, but ultimately it is their choice.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smokering*
> 
> when someone posts saying "Ugh, my SIL is going to circumcise her boy and it makes me sick, the poor baby, what can I do?", people don't generally respond by saying "Support her or you'll ruin your relationship with her", or "It's her legal right, how dare you judge her"; nor indeed "You haven't said anything nice about your SIL in this post, what a horrible person you are". They're more likely to say "I know, it's awful, I had to drop a friendship over this because I couldn't look her in the eye knowing what she did to that sweet innocent baby"


The entire point I've been trying to make is that how a parent deals with their adults child making a choice this disapprove of *may* have a profound effect on that relationship for years, possibly forever.

If someone (any one) decides to do something you disapprove and you want to END the relationship over it, that is, of course, your choice.

But going back to the fact that this thread is on mothering, I suspect that most moms on this thread would not easily or willingly end their relationship with their adult child. I suspect that some moms do not realize that how they handle such difficult situations may effect how much they know about their child's decisions and lives for a very, very long time. Dropping a friendship is not on the same level as stopping speaking to your child.

If someone wants to cut their adult child out of their life over abortion, then that's their choice. But I think they should do it with eyes wide open -- not delude themselves into thinking they can say and do anything they want and their adult child will stick around. If a parent is fine ending or seriously damaging their relationship with their adult child, then I've nothing to say. My point is only for a parent who would wish to avoid that. *If you are OK cutting your child out over or an issue, great, but if not, it would be best to consider what you wish the relationship to be like going forward when deciding your course of action.*

There's nothing my kids could do that would cause me to cut them out of my life. Nothing. My parents cut me out of theirs when I left their religion. (they eventually let me back in, but I've never felt the same about them). It's not a family pattern I'll repeat.

I don't really see the thread as being about abortion, but how to deal with the fact that once our children are adults, that may do things we disprove of and we'll have to figure out how to deal with that. I don't see "stop speaking to them" as being in line with APing.


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Quote:


> The next time I need to have a talk with my boss, can you be my translator ?!?


Sure, if you don't mind getting fired. 

Quote:


> But, you know, while we are clarifying what is fact vs. what is opinion.....I feel like MDC is always quick to jump on these debates to remind us that abortion debate is not hosted here as soon as anyone who is prochoice speaks up, but pro life comments like this can be slipped in without anyone blinking an eye.


Heh - I always feel like MDC moderation is skewed pro-choice. I guess it's a case of noticing what pesks ya; like the way Christian MDCers feel MDC is largely pagan and atheist, and pagan and atheist MDCers feel it's largely Christian (came up in a thread on TAO awhile back). But yes, you're right, not everyone considers the fetus' body a "person's body". A "human body" might have been a less contentious way of putting it.

Linda on the Move: I actually agree with you to some extent, and I haven't recommended the OP stop talking to her son or the girlfriend. (I think the "relationship with her child" thing might be a bit of a red herring, though - the mother isn't her child, and we don't know what her son thinks about the whole affair - for all we know, he doesn't want her to have the abortion.) I just don't think she should feel guilt-tripped into supporting the decision simply because it's legal, or because her moral stance might cause offense. It was a minor point... initially.


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

if the OP's a staunch pro-lifer she may not be ever able to deal with the GF and the decision (if she did abort)---while it seems to me that she is firm in her convictions she may or may not know (I learn towards that she doesn't based on how she worded her replies) that her actions may cause a serious rift

Quote:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted by *Smokering*
> ...


bold- regarding this thread- this is exactly how I see this situation

as with ending the relationship- and really this thread is about the "relationship" -IMO foremost

To me this is a trivial matter (while I know to others it is not) and I do know of a completely different circumstance that would cause me to end a relationship with my child-It is a little to hard to say (or even know) how you would deal with adult children if you don't have them--they are a different breed-I have one. You can think you never can do it and you get hit with something that completely changes your mind (not to mention your world)--------------it does happen, some people have moral hills to die on, others never even see a hill to climb and others get hit by avalanches and _it is what it is_---same as here- unless you have had an abortion you don't have a clue-IMO


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## tincia (Aug 9, 2011)

I haven't read all of the posts, but a lot of them are awful! Why is it okay for all of u to judge the OP but not okay for her to have an opinion about her 18 yr old's life. I highly doubt that if your 18 yr old was having a baby that you wouldn't have an opinion! This woman is asking for advice and support which is what i thought this site was about, but is instead being torn apart because her views don't jive with others..again what i thought this sit was about!
Op - if u r still even bothering to read all of this crap, i hope things r going well with your family


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Uh... Ok, while the OP hasn't returned... we've kind of all found a bit of a good topic. While abortion isn't exactly the topic, mothers and their adult offspring have become the issue. So if it helps someone... then why not? If she read through it all she would hopefully come away with a new perspective. I'm not talking about a different view on abortion, I'm talking about a different view of the situation altogether. I've learned a few things reading this thread. I have come away with a slightly changed view myself. And I'll leave it at that.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tincia*
> 
> I haven't read all of the posts, but a lot of them are awful! Why is it okay for all of u to judge the OP but not okay for her to have an opinion about her 18 yr old's life. I highly doubt that if your 18 yr old was having a baby that you wouldn't have an opinion! This woman is asking for advice and support which is what i thought this site was about, but is instead being torn apart because her views don't jive with others..again what i thought this sit was about!
> Op - if u r still even bothering to read all of this crap, i hope things r going well with your family


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Adaline'sMama*
> 
> " there are two people's bodies involved in abortion"
> But, you know, while we are clarifying what is fact vs. what is opinion.....I feel like MDC is always quick to jump on these debates to remind us that abortion debate is not hosted here as soon as anyone who is prochoice speaks up, but pro life comments like this can be slipped in without anyone blinking an eye.


Ah, I saw the edit of your post.  Re: the above, It's funny, because I kinda think the opposite. Maybe it's more about perspective than we think. And for the record, where I personally fall on the pro-life/ pro-choice spectrum is not something that can be explained in a sentence. But this thread was going along just fine with everyone telling the OP that her son's gf had a right to abort her baby and thank God she lives in a country where she has that right, and it's not the OP's business, etc., etc. The mod stepped in with her reminder after smokering posted.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smokering*
> 
> I just don't think she should feel guilt-tripped into supporting the decision simply because it's legal, or because her moral stance might cause offense.


I agree with this. I don't think guilt is a good reason to do much of anything, and I think that being clear in one's morals and honest with those around them is a good thing.

But I think it can be difficult to do that in way that still nurtures our relationships with people who feel differently than us and yet are important to us, such as our grown children. How to stay true to ourselves and yet still stay connected to those we love who feel differently is difficult.

I don't see the answer as simplistically as just avoiding saying anything that another could take offense at, because staying true to ourselves still needs to be part of it. It's a dilemma.

Smokering, I'm sure we have more in common than we have different, even though we have different perspectives on this difficult and devise issue.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *beenmum*
> 
> Having kids doesnt make on an authority on morality. Why would MDCers have an extra sensibility to this topic?


She wasn't saying having kids makes one a moral authority. The point is that it is surprising that MDCers cannot understand grief and offer support for that instead of turning the conversation into a debate on abortion or morality.


----------

