# FRIEND's Father BIG spanker



## jentilla (Nov 18, 2004)

I didn't want this problem to get lost in the other spanking thread.

My DD is 18 mo old and her friend "sweetie" is 2 wks older so they are very close and just the cutest together. We (parents) swap babysitting a lot and we just feel like sweetie is our 2nd DD. Both of us are AP, pro extended BF, co-slept (1st yr), homeschooling, & we cloth dipe, etc. We go to the same LLL and church and do lots together (mom and I).

Problem is friend's DH is very strict and a big spanker.

At first it (his sternest and verbal harshness) seemed..well..not our place to interfere...and we started to feel like super laid back heathen parents and we just laughed it off. Then, we observed some butt swatting and Dad pulled sweetie's feet straight out from under her so she landed hard on her butt. On another occasion, I dropped by to witness him throw a soft toy at her from across the room when she didn't listen. At a park outing with LLL she was not allowed to get down off of his lap and play (he didn't want her to get dirty).

Friend's DH quotes "I'm not raising a child, I'm raising an adult."
He is also frustrated that she hasn't learned to pick up her toys yet.
They started potty training at 14 mo (I know some do it), but I feel it's a lot of coercion and she has shown no signs except that when they sit her on the pot she will go -sometimes.

Then yesterday they met up with a mutal friend in another town and the friend called to tell my that she cannot believe the abusive way the Dad treats sweetie. In a 2.45 min period she was spanked 5x's and 1 was for not walking right by his side in the mall, dropping her sippy cup (which he said she threw), and not sitting still on his lap. When she began crying and then kissed and hugged him- he said she was manipulating him!

I have seen Mom mimick some of the lesser disciplines practices-potty sitting and foot pulling. I have said things about his expectations to Mom and about the throwing things, but it seems to be getting worse the older the girls get.

I am so stressed out and don't know how to deal with this. My DH and I love sweetie so much and we know her parents do, but Dad is so out of line with this behavior.

Help!!!!!!


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## Jennifer Z (Sep 15, 2002)

Wow, I don't know quite what to say honestly. He sounds extreme and, from your description, it sounds like it is escalating.

Can you talk to the mom about it? Is she on board with this level of violence towards the child or does she have any control? (can she give an ultimatum to the husband on his behavior...she will leave if he doesn't get counciling for anger management/parenting classes or doesn't curb the extremem behavior)

Is it to the level that you and your friend can call SRS/child protective services? As hard as it might be, it would probably be good to call and at least ask if that is a level that constitues abuse. I know that a lot of abuse/neglect is so much worse, but maybe an intervention will stop the escalation and make him realize his expectations are unrealistic and his methods are cruel.

I would not, under any circumstances, leave my child alone with this man (or his wife if she supports the violence) and make it very clear to this man that if he so much as touches my child you will be filing charges against him. (so he doesn't try and 'help' you if you are at a gathering together.)

I would probably also not let my child be around this girl if the father is present. We have had to quit being around a certain friend as much because I do not want my child to witness a parent hitting their kids...it is disturbing for me as an adult to see it, it would really be upsetting and confusing to a child.

What a rotten situation. I just can't comprehend how a parent can hit a child in the name of discipline and think it is anything other than cruel.


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## jentilla (Nov 18, 2004)

I don't believe mom would ever touch my DD. She is very laid back and really sweet. FDH is her only boyfriend/husband & I think she's very submissive, etc. We don't however have DD go there to play or stay w/out me or at night when he is there. My DD seems very wary of him anyway and doesn't respond well to a lot of yelling.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Wow. That is a big problem. It sounds like he has read "To Train Up a Child," an absolutely evil book by the Pearls. I don;t quite know what to say.


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## Vermillion (Mar 12, 2005)

wow...









18 months is so very young to be punished in my opinion, especially this harshly. In fact, I don't even think this man is punishing his daughter, it sounds more like he is just an angry, abusive man taking his frustrations out on a baby for MINOR/normal developmental things.

Sorry, I really don't have any suggestions or experience with a situation like this, I just wanted to reply.

This is a very sad situation, my heart breaks for this little girl reading the things you wrote. I really hope her mother wakes up and tells dad to get some help, and fast! Sounds like he has major anger issues.


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## katallen (Jan 4, 2005)

I think that the level that he is disciplining her is probably much worse than what you see and what the mother tells you. They are not going to tell or show the whole story for the public. I think that you should call child protection services because the mother is starting to use these techniques, the father is escalating, and the child is going to become use to the spanking and they will have to escalate even further. I think that it is very telling that the baby will not pick up her toys but will kiss and hug in order to try to get safety for herself. I don't think kissing and hugging usually comes out at 18 months on such a high level. If she is not developing like she should but seems normal than you have to wonder what worse things are going on.
I also think you should not let her watch your child anymore. She won't stand up for her own child so she probably won't stand up for yours if he decides to spank her, and she is starting to use his techniques which means she believes in them and would not think it wrong to use them on your child.
They are going to escalate and things will get a lot worse. Probably there have already been bruises that looked suspicious in the diaper area but is not there will be soon because two is a hard age, it is when the most murders occur at the hands of the parents. If you are even a tiny bit suspicious that abuse is occuring than get the poor baby some help ASAP.


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## jentilla (Nov 18, 2004)

I just reread my post to see if I made it sound worse or something, but I didn't and I feel even more upset now. Is this really cause for me to involve outside sources? Should I say something? Is she not developing because she doesn't pick up toys? My DD doesn't. I mean she will kind of start to but then get more stuff out! I'm more stressed than ever!


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

You said you go to the same church- could you talk to your pastor or children's minister?


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## jentilla (Nov 18, 2004)

We've only really just started going to this church the past few months and are still members of our old church. i'm not sure how AP the church is.


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

Wow, that sounds really bad.

I can't believe he's hitting a baby like that. What do you mean, pulling the legs out from under her? From the spanking, like, he's pulling her arm up and hitting her butt and her legs go out from under her?

I guess I'm a bit of a Dr. Laura when it comes to some of these issues, any man who hasn't already married the woman who bore his child has some serious responsibility issues, in my opinion.

He sounds twisted. Can you appeal to your friend? Can you outline you concerns to her in a way that would really show her just how extreme and wrong this is??? Sometimes when we're in the middle of something, it's hard to see what it is, perhaps if you listed the incidents just as you have to us, she might realise and seek help????

I'm so sorry and sad to hear about his, that poor little girl.

If you can't convince your friend, I think you'll have to call in for help yourself. Will they take her away though, or will they warn the parents and force them into classes?

Let us know what you do.

Trin.


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## jentilla (Nov 18, 2004)

_guess I'm a bit of a Dr. Laura when it comes to some of these issues, any man who hasn't already married the woman who bore his child has some serious responsibility issues, in my opinion.
_

They are married, have been for like 7 or 8 years and he was her first boyfriend in HS.

The pulling of the legs is like if she were standing up on the couch and wouldn't sit down after being asked he just grabbed her legs and jerked so she fell down hard. Now, obviously this didn't hurt on the soft couch, but I've seen them do this in a shopping cart and it's really the whole sort of VERY ROUGH behavior and what lies behind it that bothers me.

Physically, there is no cause for CPS to take this child and calling outside help will only create a firestorm within both our families. My mom (she works with at-risk families) advised me to be on alert and try to express my opinion when the opportunity arises. She suggested that if this sort of thing happens agin in front of me to speak for "sweetie" like : Daddy when you hit me it hurst and makes me feel bad and confused and I'm just a baby, your expectations etc.. Give her a voice since she can't talk yet.

Although my friend seems to be allowing this, I DO have confidence that she would NEVER touch my DD and DD will not be over there when the Dad is home. I think they are both educated enought to realize one should never physically discipline someone else's child.

I need to convince my other friend to allowe me to talk to my friend about how upset she was at Dad hitting sweetie and then maybe I can explain how we are both worried about his behavior.


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

Oh! Sorry. I thought you called him her boyfriend, my mistake.









Yes, that does sound rough!

I don't want this little one's life to get any harder, so, CPS might not be the best route.... and as you said, if your Mom knows that they wouldn't act, then, there's no point.

I think the idea of speaking for "sweetie" the next time you SEE this happen would really help.

How is he, personally, with you? Do you two talk much? Is he reasonable? Does your husband ever talk with him or see this happen? It might be better coming from a man to another man, highlighting just how insane it is for a Daddy to be hitting his little baby girl.

Do you think that if you really stressed just how LITTLE she is that it might appeal to him? I'm kind of flailing in the dark I think.... I can't really understand the mental process of a person who hits little babies.

Ummmm.

Is he into science? Could you come at this from a "developement of the human animal" kind of angle? That a little one like this cannot CONCEIVE of complex rules and commands and understand the punishments when she doesn't perform because her BRAIN cannot make those connections yet?

Trin.


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

I'm having a hard time figuring out from your post what kind of a guy he is (other than a baby-hitter







), and what might work vs what would fall on deaf ears.

If it's a question of his having expectations that aren't age-appropriate, and you think he might be open to learning more, maybe you could buy one of those books about "your child at 2" or something like that, setting out where kids are usually at developmentally at that age, and lend it to him, mentioning how helpful you find it 'because it's so hard to tell what's normal and what's behaviour that needs addressing.'

Re raising an "adult," as he put it, I put a link in this forum a while back to a news story about a new study by Statistics Canada, showing that children who are physically disciplined develop problems later on - you may want to chase it down.

I don't know if directing these to dad would help or not: it sounds like he may be pretty controlling and sure of himself (what you say of the relationship with the mom), which doesn't bode well.

Poor little sweetie. Good for you for wanting to help - it's a fine line, since you don't get shut out of your involvement in this little girl's life because you tick off dad with your ideas.


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## peaceful herbivore (Mar 17, 2005)

Maybe one should point out to this person that as an adult, there is no situation where someone can legally hit you without breaking the law. It is called assault or assault and battery. The "raising an adult" arguement doesn't really work for me.

I personally would not allow my child to be around this person. It is unfortunate that the mom is someone you like, and while I wouldn't cut off communication all together, I would probably distance myself from people who supported or condoned the hitting of a child. Unfortunately in this society, that is going to mean distancing yourself from quite a few people, but it you work to find other likeminded parents who at least agree with you on that aspect of things, you haven't lost a thing.

Ultimately you can not control or change anyone but yourself, and while I find your desire to help the situation commendable, there is honestly only so much you can do. Please do not feel like you have failed if you can't change things, try your best to talk, offer suggestions, etc, but if it doesn't help, you have two choices: call child protection services if you are really worried, or cut your losses.

Take care and good luck whatever you choose.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Just an idea- maybe you could say your piece to the couple.

It might not make anything better, and it would probably end your firendship, but it might give them something to think about that might settle in over time.

I'm not sure about this because I have NO experience in "intervention" type behaviors, but if the common friend and you approach them together and say you've both seen the agression, explain normal developmental stuff, and both are wondering what to do, maybe it would help.

I would suggest they take a parenting class, suggest he take an anger management class.

I have no idea - it might make things worse, but I think these people deserve to know that thier behaviour is not considered "normal" or "accepable" by their peers.


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## I'm A CocoNut (Jul 22, 2004)

I wish that I had some good advice to offer....I'm so sorry for sweetie...

There were 2 no-spank websites listed on another thread about spanking--My 2yo broke the tv.....that may offer some advice? There was also that editiorial recetnly by Peggy O'Mara about 'no hitting' that was really great...it sounds like you may need to be careful about putting him on the defensiveand therefore making him angry...just offer this 'great new info you just read and thought you'd share as trying to figure out appropriate ways to respond to your child is so tough and we just need all thehelp we can get...hahaha' Or 'guess what i just learned?? There's this great article/book/whatever that offers all these other alternatives to spanking .... I know it is so tough sometimes and we get so frustrated and angry...but they are still babies youknow and blah blah..' in a really friendly voice....

Or maybe just trying to get to him through your friend...not necessarily in an attack mode, but sort of what I just mentioned...if she is submisive, she may just defend him. But if you can educate her and allow her to become empowered and stand up for herself and therefore sweetie, then maybe, just maybe...

I don't know....good luck to you...and to sweetie.
Jennifer


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## jentilla (Nov 18, 2004)

Well next week I will see this mom quite a bit b/c she IS watching my DD for 2 hours a couple mornings next week. I have no choice since I have to be in a class and my regular sitter is out of town. I DON"T feel she is in any danger with mom. I am, however, going to work the spanking into the convo. either by talking about and convo my DH and I had about the subject and just see what she says and then proceed. I reallly feel the problem is with her DH, but she doesgo along with the behavior so I want to try and get to her first. I REALLY appreciate the help and responses. I will keep everyone updated.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

It's extremely difficult to step into someone's family and start criticizing the way they parent. Also, I think involving CPS or something is too extreme an action to take. That is not to be considered lightly. My personal feeling is that spanking is not considered harmful at all by the mainstream, so you are going to have a hard time making a case. They deal with severe abuse cases and can barely keep up with those. Kwim?

I think that the best way to approach this is as a parent concerned about your OWN child. Since your friend is sitting for you, you have EVERY RIGHT to discuss discipline as it relates to how she is going to treat your child. You might say something along the lines of "We do not hit in our family and I just want to make sure you understand that since I see that you use spanking as part of your discipline techniques and I want to make it clear that I don't want my DD spanked". Something along those lines. Then hopefully, this might spark a discussion of the spanking itself. TRY not to be hard on the DH when you talk, because if you put your friend on the defensive, she'll spend too much mental energy defending him and not hearing you. Put things in terms of "well, we researched hte issue and came to the decision that spanking wasn't best for our DD and how we wish to handle discipline" etc...make it about YOU, not her. The contrast may be glaringly obvious to her upon hearing this, or she may ask for more information.

I will also say that personally, I will not let my children be around anybody who hits kids. As far as I'm concerned, this is akin to them witnessing violence on TV or anywhere else and I don't want them exposed like that. If I were you (and I'm not, so take this for what it's worth) I would have a talk with your friend and say that I don't want my child witnessing other children being hit and physically punished. I would insist that friends' DH not be around, or if he is that he not hit the child. It may be hard to do this, but IMO my kids are worth it. It must be very confusing and upsetting for a child raised in a gentle home to witness this. And if SOMEBODY doesn't point out to them that this is wrong (and then try to explain why it is being permitted by everyone around them) they are going ot assume that this is normal behaviour. NOT the type of healthy relationship I wish to model for my children.


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## Petranis (Feb 15, 2005)

Could it be that the dad is extremely stressed and depressed maybe and in need of some help? It may be an idea to try and gently broach this with your friend. To me it seems very excessive "Pearl" stuff to spank such a young child or in fact baby.


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## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

I have an 18 month old, too...and a close friend that treats her 23 mo son in ways I find appalling.
We openly discuss our different parenting techniques, and only when circing was discussed in depth did it turn into a real argument....
She knows I'm kinda freaked out by hitting, and doesn't spank her son around me or my son any longer (my son burst into tears once when she did it).
My friend is a reasonable person, though...I can tell her in all honesty that I'm not entirely sure I'm completely right...
Who knows?
Maybe I'm raising a selfish brat, and she a responsible member of society?
After saying that, though, I can really tell the truth about how I feel when I see grownups hitting children or babies.


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## Amys1st (Mar 18, 2003)

A very good discussion,

Last year when DD was just over 2, I brought my friend a meal since she just had a baby. Her Dd is 1 mo older than my DD and she had a newborn.

She and her DH spank the older one and have since she was about 15 mos old. She warned her when she was doing something not to do it. Then she said if she did not stop, she would get a spanking. Then when she did not stop, she told her she was spanking her and did it. It was a couple of slpas on her rear end and it spooked me.

Well, it spooked me so you can imagine what it did to my DD. She was very clingy the rest of the time we were there and semi winey. She is never like this and she would not go near my friend either. She woke up a few times in the night that week as well.

Also, that day her DD would hit when she got angry. Thankfully she did not hit my DD or we would have cut the visit short.

It took me a few days to tell my DH since he cannot stand her DH anyway and he was very angry when they told us they spanked their DD matter of factly at 15 mos. Also when she called me to thank me for the dinner, she was saying how wonderful it was and how they both enjoyed a hot homemade meal so much. She then said "DH even said to me- why can't you cook like this?" I know she meant it as a compliment to me but all I could think of- was Wow what a jerk!! Don't ever compare your wife to someone else


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## Red (Feb 6, 2002)

So, if he's this abusive in front of you,imagine what happens when you['re not there.

If someone did this to your child, you'd make a call right?

And I 'd do it now. Anonmously. (I hate it when I totally forget how to spell something.) Explain that you're a neighbor who's seen him swap the babe, pull her feet out from under her, etc. If he's not meaning to abuse, he's apt to be frightened enough to change his ways.

This is a horrible situation!! To speak up is to maybe lose contact, to stay silent is to condone this babe's abuse.

Speak up. Just do. Save that babe another day of horror.

Then, when they confide in you that the authorities were called, inundate them with helpful books and magazines, take mom to the library andhelp her pick out great books. Be supportive and helpful and know you saved that babe.


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## jentilla (Nov 18, 2004)

_Maybe I'm raising a selfish brat, and she a responsible member of society?
_

Well, I 've been unable to broach the subject b/c my DD seems to want to throw amazing fits each time we see them. The 1st time we met my friend and "sweetie" at the park and my dd was slightly tired & hungry, but since it was a nice day I wanted her to get out. Then today after church we had an easter egg hunt, baby chicks, all that and my dd was again tired and hungry and wanted to run and bascially be a toddler! We went off and nursed and had some mommy/dd time since she had been in the nursery for a hour. Well it didn't help too much and so we left. Thing is, "sweetie" had been in the nursery for 3 hours and was probably tried and hungry too. She kinda of just stood there and stared off while my dd was all over the place. At teh time, I'm like how can I say anything about spanking when my dd is out of control and "sweetie" is so docile. I got really mad at myself (for being so prideful!) and a little a dd (for not being boosting my ego!). But how can I be credible when it looks like they are doing a better job at "teaching" their child to behave?


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

jentilla, I know how you feel. I have a friend who spanks. we finally got to visit (we live very far away) and that day my DD was melting down all over the place. she'd been napping when we got there and I woke her up to get her out of the car and for the rest of the day she was clingy adn crying at the drop of ahat. needless to say I was so upset that my "punishment-free" child was coming across as a basket case when her spanked children were being so well behaved. my mother was there and even commented that my DD cried more that day than the week mother had been visiting us. but still....anyways.

like i said, i think you should forget about telling them how to raise their child. just stick to YOUR child. and, since your friend watches your child, you have every right to tell her that you don't want any spanking in her presence.


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## Vito's Mommy (Jan 19, 2005)

>Physically, there is no cause for CPS to take this child and calling outside help will only create a firestorm within both our families<

Jentilla, I don't mean to be full of drama or even abraisive, but what exactly what needs to happen to this child before it's ok to call CPS? (I know that's a big step)

I wouldn't worry to much about keeping a relationship w/people like this. Plus, you can always remain anonymous if it were to come to that.

>I think they are both educated enought to realize one should never physically discipline someone else's child.<

They are not "educated" enough to know that it's not ok to hit their own child, let alone someone else's.

You are in a tough spot. But IMO, someone needs to speak for the baby before something bad happens. I've been there, but it wasn't physical abuse as it is in this case. It was drugs and alcohol. I did what I felt was right. You can only do what you feel is right to do. I wish you luck...glad sweetie has you guys to make some of her day sunny!


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## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jentilla*
_Maybe I'm raising a selfish brat, and she a responsible member of society?
_

Well, I 've been unable to broach the subject b/c my DD seems to want to throw amazing fits each time we see them. The 1st time we met my friend and "sweetie" at the park and my dd was slightly tired & hungry, but since it was a nice day I wanted her to get out. Then today after church we had an easter egg hunt, baby chicks, all that and my dd was again tired and hungry and wanted to run and bascially be a toddler! We went off and nursed and had some mommy/dd time since she had been in the nursery for a hour. Well it didn't help too much and so we left. Thing is, "sweetie" had been in the nursery for 3 hours and was probably tried and hungry too. She kinda of just stood there and stared off while my dd was all over the place. At teh time, I'm like how can I say anything about spanking when my dd is out of control and "sweetie" is so docile. I got really mad at myself (for being so prideful!) and a little a dd (for not being boosting my ego!). But how can I be credible when it looks like they are doing a better job at "teaching" their child to behave?

The way I deal with my friend is just...well...openly.
There's a thread I started a few days ago about how unsure I am about GD...the event that sparked these feelings was my observing this super-obedient kid at the park last week who was obviously being raised with a lot of spanking, while my ds was completely ignoring me and wandering off.
Anyway, yesterday I was watching my friend's ds for a few hours, and as they were leaving (they were outside and I was waving bye through the door) her ds takes off down the street, totally ignoring her!
(This is the friend who will "whoop" her baby 10 or 20 times a day).
Of course, my friend, upon seeing her son do this, ran over, yanked him up by the hand, and whacked him on the butt.
Now, the part that really surprised me was that it didn't even phase him anymore...he just looked at her.
He's officially desensitized to being hit and yelled at by his mommy.








So, when I was talking to her today, I was able to tell her about how I felt seeing my son ignore me at the park, and use the angle of "But if I ever do actually yell at him, or if it ever comes down to spanking, his threshold will be really low, so a lot less will do a lot more...I have a lot of room to work with, and that's important to me. I don't want to ever wonder 'what next?' when I'm already pushing the limits of dicipline that I'm comfortable with and nothing I do bothers him."
What I'm saying is, you have to be honest with your friend, and find ways of genuinely presenting your opinion in a non-threatening way.
I'm sure your friend's dd has "off" days, too...I don't think she made any definitive judgements on your parenting based off of a grumpy toddler day.
Toddlers are toddlers. She knows this.
As long as you don't throw stones when the subject is brought up, I doubt she'll do so either.
And if she does, then it's not destined to be a friendship that will last anyway, I bet.


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## Amys1st (Mar 18, 2003)

How old is your son that is "wandering around at the park"? Isn't that what you are supposed to do at the park?

My daughter loves to wander and explore. Thats her job- she 2 1/2 close to 3! When we go to the park or anywhere that children love, either DH or I stay close by but far enough away to allow her to explore. On the swings, we are right there to push her, on the slide, either at the bottom or near the top if its a new place. But places like that are not a place to sit and relax.

I could not even fathom putting bodily harm to my child for doing what her brain and body need right now- exploration and exercise. Much less anything else for that matter.

You're right- that boy who obeys is also showing signs of knowing he has to act a certain way or he will get a spanking or whatever. He is never going to be able to have an original idea or exercise a creative aspect of himself since his parents have this relationship with him. Don't resort to doing that no matter what your friend does. Your boy is normal wanting to wander and see. Allow him that


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## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amys1st*
How old is your son that is "wandering around at the park"? Isn't that what you are supposed to do at the park?

My daughter loves to wander and explore. Thats her job- she 2 1/2 close to 3! When we go to the park or anywhere that children love, either DH or I stay close by but far enough away to allow her to explore. On the swings, we are right there to push her, on the slide, either at the bottom or near the top if its a new place. But places like that are not a place to sit and relax.

I could not even fathom putting bodily harm to my child for doing what her brain and body need right now- exploration and exercise. Much less anything else for that matter.

You're right- that boy who obeys is also showing signs of knowing he has to act a certain way or he will get a spanking or whatever. He is never going to be able to have an original idea or exercise a creative aspect of himself since his parents have this relationship with him. Don't resort to doing that no matter what your friend does. Your boy is normal wanting to wander and see. Allow him that

I don't want to hijack this thread or anything, but i just wanted to respond to this quickly...
In my tiny little world, this whole GD thing is somewhat experimental...I have never known *anyone* who was not spanked growing up, and don't know *anyone* in my personal life who does not spank.
I live in the Bible belt, where people believe it's abusive to _not_ spank...







:
Logically, I know it's wrong, ineffective, and even counterproductive to hit kids, but I'm somewhat haunted by the views of the culture I was raised in; i.e. kids that are not spanked will grow up to be criminals.
But anyway, no...I'm not going to start hitting my toddler for being a toddler.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

I just wanted to say that I think getting Social Services involved would be a bad, bad idea. They are overworked, and they are sometimes overzealous. It would probably be much more traumatic for "sweetie" to be removed from her home than to stay.

Also, you shouldn't feel "prideful" for knowing that what he is doing is mean. I've felt like that before, too. My sister-in-law and her husband have spanked their baby since he could crawl, and before that she would smack him when he bit her while he was nursing. This was before I had children, and didn't know too much about discipline. However, I did feel this yucky shock the first time I saw her do it. Now that I have a DD, his little cousin, it's even worse. I am not good at avoiding confrontation, and I've made us leave before to avoid making a big scene about her smacking him. I just think they're lazy and inconsistent, and it's their answer to everything. He won't go to sleep, they spank him, he won't potty train, they spank him. (He's 3 1/2) He hits my daughter, they hit him back. My husband has talked to her about it a few times, but she doesn't listen. So, we try to avoid them. He is desensitized, too. In fact, he had pretty much stopped responding at all to any sort of spanking or hitting or hair-pulling, so then they ratcheted up to the "bare-bottom spank". Yuck. Anyway, I'm a CASA, and I have seen lots lots worse, but it's hard to tell what emotional damage is being done.

I'm sorry, there was no advice there. I just wanted to share your pain. How would they react if you told them that you weren't going to let your dd play there anymore? Maybe it would embarrass him, and her, since she's enabling him too. You could say, "we don't let dd watch violent movies, and there's lots of violence going on in this house, so we're not coming over until it changes." Of course in a less preachy way, but that would be the upshot. Would they just get mad?


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## Red (Feb 6, 2002)

So, natensarah, it would be better to let this continue than call for help? Pulling the kidds feet out form under her could cause permanent damage to her spine. If she's wheelchair bound, will it still be better?

A good scare would either wise the Dad up or make the Mother consider protecting her child!

And I have 5 unspanked young adults. They are responsible, law-abiding, pleasant members of society. Do not fear!


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## KellyB (Jun 15, 2006)

I got curious and looked up child abuse.
http://www.helpguide.org/mental/chil...al_neglect.htm
There's a few hotlines at the bottom for people to call if they suspect abuse. (not CPS, but experts who can tell you if this qualifies as abuse in the eyes of the law, and will direct you to your local CPS # if it does.)

I don't really think any of this qualifies as abuse in the eyes of the law,(it looks like there needs to be an _injury_ for it to be *real* abuse) but the thing about yanking her by her feet does sound dangerous, so....I don't know...maybe you could call that hotline and see what they think?


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Red said:


> So, natensarah, it would be better to let this continue than call for help? Pulling the kidds feet out form under her could cause permanent damage to her spine. If she's wheelchair bound, will it still be better?
> 
> A good scare would either wise the Dad up or make the Mother consider protecting her child!
> 
> ...


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## mpeel (Nov 20, 2001)

I have made the decision to cut off contact with a family who spanks their child. It is no where near like you describe. I would call CPS on the family here in a minute but like someone else said, I am in the Bible Belt where not spanking is considered abuse. I will not and do not keep friends who spank, period. I will not have my children seeing it happen. I think it is abusive, any spanking. It is damaging psychologically. But what this father is doing to "sweetie" may be permanently damaging phyically as well.

I had to discipline the little girl of the family I am cutting ties with. This was before I realized they spanked her. I was on my knees in front of her and Samantha (they are a month apart in age), so I was at the same height as them, not hover over them. She was cowering away from me. She was clearly frightened of me. I was on my knees talking calmly about what the consequences could have been for their actions and that we were lucky this time but did they see why X thing was not safe to do. I was not yelling, lecturing, etc. Just raising my daughter. This little girl was scared to death. It is soooo sad. She is damaged and probably always will be.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mpeel*
I have made the decision to cut off contact with a family who spanks their child. It is no where near like you describe. I would call CPS on the family here in a minute but like someone else said, I am in the Bible Belt where not spanking is considered abuse. I will not and do not keep friends who spank, period. I will not have my children seeing it happen. I think it is abusive, any spanking. It is damaging psychologically. But what this father is doing to "sweetie" may be permanently damaging phyically as well.

I had to discipline the little girl of the family I am cutting ties with. This was before I realized they spanked her. I was on my knees in front of her and Samantha (they are a month apart in age), so I was at the same height as them, not hover over them. She was cowering away from me. She was clearly frightened of me. I was on my knees talking calmly about what the consequences could have been for their actions and that we were lucky this time but did they see why X thing was not safe to do. I was not yelling, lecturing, etc. Just raising my daughter. This little girl was scared to death. It is soooo sad. She is damaged and probably always will be.


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

This is a lousy situation.







Unfortunately, there is no "good" solution to it.

I don't think it is likely that you can change the way these people - particularly Dad - parent their child. You have to separate this into two issues - the first being your concern over your own child witnessing this, and the second being your concern ofr this little girl.

I would not spend time with them if the dad is around, or if the mom is also using spanking or other "discipline" that you don't want your daughter to see. And I agree that you should make no assumptions about what goes on when you aren't around and very clearly state that you do not ever want your child disciplined in this way by her.

You can talk to this friend about your concerns. It is easy to see that her husband knows nothing about children and what they need. It may not help, but at least you can feel as though you tried, and then it is up to her. But I wouldn't expect much.

It's just sad. I feel so bad for that poor little girl. Aside from the physical pain she is having inflicted upon her, I cringe to think of how psychologically damaging this is. She is still a baby and she is not even allowed to play, for heaven's sake, and it sounds like she gets nothing but disapproval from her father.

It is nearly impossible, at least in my experience, to have a friendship with people who treat their children with little respect.


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## sadie_sabot (Dec 17, 2002)

Please talk to your friend about your concerns. If nothing changes, then call CPS.

Seriously.

My dd is 2 and three months, and I used to be Miss patience and never frustrated, etc. Now with a verbal, willful, smart and strong toddler I get pretty frustrated sometimes. If he is already being so violent with his kid and she's only 20 months, IT WILL ESCALATE unless there's some sort of intervention. Basically, his kid will just get harder and harder to control, and he will get more and more violent in trying to control her.










My other concern is that I wonder, if your friend defied him, would he get violent with her? Could she be afraid of interveneing on her child's behalf? This is why I suggest you talk to her, so if she does actually want to be an advocate for her kid, you can offer support.

I feel really sad for that kid.


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