# Questions about crying it out



## robynholly (Aug 24, 2008)

I just don't think I can let my 6 month old cry. However, I need sleep! He wakes up every 2 hours and is not always hungry. Does CIO teach them to self soothe or does it teach them to not bother crying because their needs won't get met? I know 3 people who have done it with their kids under 1 year old and it has worked.


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## Violet2 (Apr 26, 2007)

This board doesn't allow discussions on the merits of CIO.

6 months is just a crappy sleep period. There's a lot of motor development, a growth spurts, their bodies are just buzzing with *stuff* going on. They really can't help themselves.

IMO 6 months is too young to CIO. I'm not opposed to some gentle tough love with older kids, but at 6 months they are really just babies who need mommy or daddy.

Look for alternatives. Get a sitter to come and give you nap. Alternate nights with your partner.

I also had a lot of luck with the cosleeper. Many nights DD just needed a little rock or her paci replaced and she was fine. Due to the motor stuff, I spent many nights sleeping with a hand on her legs to keep her from kicking herself awake.

If you don't have a cosleeper, you can sidecar a crib very easily, but having baby within arm's reach helps with the sleeping ime.

Also, are you still swaddling? They sell medium and large swaddle blankets. Try that as well.

Good luck! It's hard. The sleep deprivation is so hard core the first year. Babies are not made for sleeping, they really aren't. Even parents who CIO are up due to developmental sleep disruptions.

I do not believe it is safe to ignore a crying baby because you never know if they are sick or hurt or have a fever. Responsibly, parents need to check on their kids when they are crying, they can't just ignore it and sleep through it Some of the CIO stuff I hear sometimes leads me to wonder if some parents are completely ignoring their babies, which is not cool!

If you want to work on improving sleep habits, do try to put your baby to bed drowsy but awake and let them drift off on their own. That should help them get back to sleep when they wake in the middle of the night.

Introducing a lovey may help as well.

Now I have to run, my DD is crying and not having a good night herself.

Hang in there. Don't try to change the baby, they have no control,focus on changing something you can actually control.

V


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

CIO will have very different effects on different kids. Some will get quiet (the jury's out on *why* they get quiet - either they fall asleep or they're traumatized into silence). Some will scream so the rescue choppers can hear them. What it means when CIO "works" is also a funny question. Sometimes it means the kid went to sleep. Sometimes it means the parent did. And different parents mean different things by it. Some mean "I put her in her crib, and when I checked back in ten minutes, she was snoozing." Some mean "I shut the door and walked away."

Bottom line: you have a six month-old, and you are getting desperate for some sleep. I am so sorry, mama. This part can be just awful. We did some things that I think helped -
- We were still swaddling at 6 mos. It helped him get to sleep, and re-swaddling (since he always got out) helped him get back to sleep.
- We started co-sleeping at around this stage (less getting up and going places = more sleep).
- DS started teething around this stage, and teething medicine really saved our lives.
- We made the middle of the night booooring. No singing, no stories, just reapply teething medicine (if it had been long enough), check the diaper, offer the breast. Minimal light and interaction.

In terms of your sleep: if you're home, nap when the baby does. If not, get major help on weekends. When DS was this age, DH would take him yard-saling on Saturday mornings, or I'd bring him to my parents' house, and they'd fuss over him while I slept in their guest room. If you can work it out so you and DH alternate nights, that's great. Alternatively, you can split things up in shifts (but this is much harder if you breastfeed). I can't say enough good things about co-sleeping in this regard - you don't have to get up, you don't have to go anywhere, the LO barely has time to get a fuss going before a parent can respond, and after a while, many mamas find that they can nurse in their sleep.


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## carrie a. (Oct 2, 2008)

it WILL get better. and you will be so happy you stuck with your instincts and didn't let your baby cry. my dd was a horrible sleeper and i was sleep deprived for about 7 months. every baby is different so it's tough to say when your lo will start sleeping better, but my dd sleeps through the night pretty much every night at 10 months old and i think it's because she knows she's safe and secure and i'll always be there to give her what she needs. hang in there! you're doing great.


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## KristaDJ (May 30, 2009)

CIO teaches them not to bother crying because no one will come. It also causes brain damage. Babies cry, you need to respond every time. I know it can be frustrating when you see other parents have an "easier" baby because they do something like CIO but really YOUR baby is the lucky one. It will get better. How do you know he's not hungry when he wakes up?


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## robynholly (Aug 24, 2008)

Tell me more about how it causes brain damage. I know he is not hungry because he doesn't want to eat







Thanks for all your help!


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## syd'smom (Sep 23, 2008)

Here's one article for you!


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## zomigi (Nov 5, 2008)

My DH and I are having the same problem, and tempted by CIO, simply because we don't know what else to try. DD is 6 months and completely dependent on us to fall asleep. She's also extremely sensitive to being moved, so for a while we were waiting until she was deep asleep (20-30 minutes) before trying to put her down -- and even then she would often wake up, and you'd have to start all over again. Now, we're trying to put her down as soon as she falls asleep, in order to start transitioning her to being able to be put in her crib sleepy but not asleep. Sometimes this works, but often she will wake up immediately, and instead of crying, she'll want to play. There is absolutely no way to get her back to sleep when she wants to play, and we're completely at a loss as to what to do.

Co-sleeping doesn't work. We did it for a few months, and liked it, but she started failing to go back to sleep after breastfeeding, so we'd have to get up and rock her in the other room anyway.

Swaddling doesn't work. It worked great when she would stay in it. She's been able to bust out of it -- the velcro SwaddleMe blankets and the layered Miracle Blanket -- for months now, almost immediately. She's always been really strong.

Feeding doesn't work. She's like the only baby on the planet who is not made sleepy by eating. It almost always energizes her. If she is really hungry, she will let you know, so we do still feed her overnight most nights, but usually she is not hungry, just wants to be held.

I'm really frustrated by this, but DH is even more so, because he's the primary caregiver. It's exhausting to him to have to take care of her all day, with very little break because she doesn't nap long on her own, and then be up half the night. It's making him resentful of her.

I've read The No Cry Sleep Solution, and we've tried a number of things from it, so we're at a loss as to what else we can do, other than let her cry...


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## Equuskia (Dec 16, 2006)

Well, there are babies who need to cry before sleeping, but not in a CIO kind of way. It's more of a stress/frustration release cry. Some babies get overstimulated by rocking, patting, talking, etc. Have you tried laying baby down when baby's drowsing, and just sitting or standing nearby and seeing what happens? Obviously, if baby is getting distressed, then comfort it, but sometimes they fuss and whine for a few minutes, then go to sleep. My younger one does this in the car. It starts by incessant babbling, then whining, then crying, then sleeping.


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## prettypixels (Apr 13, 2006)

My daughter has been a pretty awful sleeper from birth, and I have to say... it comes in waves. Sometimes things are good, sometimes, horrible. Even now, at 2.5. (She does usually sleep through now, but getting her to bed is... eeeeks! Not always... phases.) Looking back it always seemed to change up once I reached the maximum of what I could bear.

Most parents who CIO wind up having to do it again and again, because these things DO go in phases, and sleepless nights will happen again. Something to consider.

Try to get as much help as you can, and sleep as much as you can.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

I do daycare for kids who have CIOed and have also seen the results of it with many of my friends' kids.

I do not believe that it teaches kids to self-soothe. I believe it teaches them to give up, and that bedtime is a time to feel stressed out.

My evidence is that all 3 of my kids will lay in their beds and quietly talk to themselves, read, hum, or fiddle if they can't fall asleep. If they want me, they call me and ask for a drink, an answer to whatever they were thinking about, or sometimes a snuggle, or a rock. But they also usually don't get up, and then usually, they fall asleep pretty quickly. Doesn't that sound wonderful? Doesn't that sound like self-soothing? It is! Wonderful and self-soothing!

But...my friends who have CIOed have almost all had to resort to locking their kids in their room when they get big enough to get out of their cribs, and then had to endure their child banging on the door and screaming and bawling for their parents. And then, when they go anywhere they can't get them to go to sleep because they can't lock them up. And then, if they resort to co-sleeping or "comforting" their kids to sleep during illness or travel, they have to retrain their kids. If their kids were really learning to self-soothe, it doesn't seem like all that would be necessary, you know? It seems to me like they're giving up, and then if there is the slightest inclination on their parents' parts to give them what they need at bedtime and during the night, they jump at the chance.


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## K-Mom3 (Apr 27, 2009)

Wow! This discussion is just what I need right now! My third baby is 7 months old and I was determined from her birth day that she was going to be a better sleeper than my first 2 kids. So I put her down drowsy and tried really hard to not nurse when I was sure she wasn't hungry. And she was a good sleeper....for a while. She would go to sleep in her own bed and was starting to sleep loooong stretches. And now it is all bunk. Seriously, you would think that I had been nursing her to sleep her whole life and staying with her for every nap and every moment of the night she's sleeping. She is having a tough time and really needs me a lot more. So I'm co-sleeping all night again, nursing during the night again and as much as my back can handle it, she naps in the sling again. Quite the reversion. My conclusion is that it doesn't matter what sleep associations or self soothing skills she had--for right now she just needs me. I look forward to the day when I can have 5 or even 8 hours of sleep at one time but I don't really expect it to be soon.

That said, I think I will give the No Cry Sleep Solution a try again. I've read the book but I've never actually written down a plan and carefully reevaluated every 10 days to see what progress we've made. Can anyone share experiences you've had with approaching the method in the regimented way the author suggests?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Babies are babies. By definition they need mama. CIO is never okay. Never.

They are little for such a short time. Sleep with them, sleep while they nurse, cuddle them while they let you. Before you know it they'll be too big to cuddle.

-Angela


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## tireesix (Apr 27, 2006)

What Alegna said.

If baby is up at 5, I am up at 5, if baby wakes up just as I am going to bed, then I am up until she goes back to sleep again. She is generally a good sleeper (Goes to sleep at 5-6pm, has a couple of night time feeds and wakes up at 5-6 am), however, there are occasions when she gets a bit head crazy and starts waking up at all different hours and not sleeping etc.

Sometimes I have found, that for whatever reason, there are some nights she will go to sleep fine and then wake up within a couple of hours SCREAMING, nothing I do stops it, but she calms down eventually and goes back to sleep.

Sometimes, she simply will not go to sleep and is just screaming and I simply have to keep thinking about what will work whether it is rocking, breastfeeding etc or simply holding her while she cries. She is very mobile (nearly 8 months and cruising) and she wants to be up and doing everything her sisters are doing or just up and into everything.

I coslept with my eldest 2, no CIO, responded to every time they cried during the night and I have no problems with them at night time. DD2 can be awke until 9pm (they go up at 6pm for story time, snack and bed time drink, 7pm is lights out) but she doesn't come down stairs, she just stays up there and fiddles, looks at a book etc. If DD1 is awake longer than usual then they will often just talk to each other and if either wants anything, they just call down to us. I have been over friends houses and the kids are constantly up and down the stairs, shouting, screaming etc and those kids were brought up with CIO and no co sleeping (cos CIO is so great and really works and cosleeping is so bad and creating a rod for your own back lol).

People are ALWAYS amazed by our daughters night time behaviour, unless baby is being a bit off, we generally, from 7pm have an incredibly quiet house, the important thing though, is there was no trauma involved for the children or us, it was just gentleness that got us here and a desire for night times to be comfortable for both children and adults.


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## tireesix (Apr 27, 2006)

Just to add, my kiddlies are 5, 3 and baby is nearly 8 months.


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## schreiberwriter (Aug 3, 2005)

zomigi, it sounds like you know what works for your little one--holding her while she sleeps. We did that for a time with both of our kids and they gradually don't need it. Why co-sleeping didn't work for you is confusing.

Overall, gentle nighttime parenting creates an environment where going to sleep is OK and loving and safe. It requires nurturing at a time when we're tired and want a break. But it gets easier and as children mature, they need less from us at night.

So do what you need to do to get through each night and that changes a lot during the first year and a half.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

The way I see it, DD is a special person who deserves love and respect. I wouldn't close the door and ignore my DH if he was crying and screaming. And I won't do it to DD either.

I'm not saying this is the problem for every mom but anytime a mom complains to me about their LO not sleeping well...I find out they are expected to go to bed at some g-d awful early time and expected to sleep for 11 hours straight. AND they have 2-3 or even 4 naps during the day. I know infants need sleep. But honestly?

"Oh, his bedtime is at 6PM"

"I put her to bed at 6:15 every night"

"Mommy and Daddy need their alone time so the twins go down at 5:30"

Now, I hope I don't step on any toes b/c my motto is if it works don't mess it up. But if it ain't working...maybe try to put your baby to sleep when you actually go to sleep....or at least when it gets *dark* out...that might help!

My personal experience is that DD's needs fluctuate. Right now she needs a lot of sleep. She is falling asleep around 10pm and waking up around 10am. A month ago she was sleeping closer to 11pm and waking at 8:36am on the dot. Babies follow their bodies and do what they need to do. They don't obey outside influence. They don't need to get up early for a job or stay up late for a tv show. Unless you think a specific event knocked your baby off kilter, there's a reason he's waking up.

Do you have a partner who can help? Is your son co-sleeping?


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## frontierpsych (Jun 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *claddaghmom* 
"Oh, his bedtime is at 6PM"

"I put her to bed at 6:15 every night"

"Mommy and Daddy need their alone time so the twins go down at 5:30"

Man, those folks must think I'm a terrible parent, seeing as my 9.5mo isn't in bed till 10 or 11 many nights! And he's STILL up at the crack of dawn with *gasp* only 2 naps!

And no, he almost never STTN. He usually wakes 1-3 times, often with an hour long or longer crying jag because he has eczema and it's uncomfortable.

But you know what? When he's up, my husband or I are up comforting him. It's parents. It's our job. No one said it was easy. And yeah, sometimes I want to slam my head into a wall. That's life. The CIO "method" is just justification for not doing your job as a parent.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Babies are babies. By definition they need mama. CIO is never okay. Never.

They are little for such a short time. Sleep with them, sleep while they nurse, cuddle them while they let you. Before you know it they'll be too big to cuddle.

-Angela

this

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frontierpsych* 

But you know what? When he's up, my husband or I are up comforting him. It's parents. It's our job. No one said it was easy. And yeah, sometimes I want to slam my head into a wall. That's life. The CIO "method" is just justification for not doing your job as a parent.

and this.

It goes so quickly. Even if you have 1-2 yrs of nights where you don't get a full night of uninterupted sleep, you'll be okay. Your baby, however, if left to CIO may not be okay!! I found that co-sleeping and learning to fall back asleep while they nursed made night-time parenting much easier than it would have been if I was fully waking up and walking down the hall every 2 hrs when they awoke.

6 mos is very little still. While some babies do sleep through the night at that age (my first did) most babies don't. But it won't be forever. Promise.


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## tireesix (Apr 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frontierpsych* 
Man, those folks must think I'm a terrible parent, seeing as my 9.5mo isn't in bed till 10 or 11 many nights! And he's STILL up at the crack of dawn with *gasp* only 2 naps!

And no, he almost never STTN. He usually wakes 1-3 times, often with an hour long or longer crying jag because he has eczema and it's uncomfortable.

But you know what? When he's up, my husband or I are up comforting him. It's parents. It's our job. No one said it was easy. And yeah, sometimes I want to slam my head into a wall. That's life. The CIO "method" is just justification for not doing your job as a parent.

Even though my 3rd DD is happy to sleep from 5-5 or 6-6, my first DD wouldn't sleep until 10 or 11 at night but would sleep through until the morning.

Its definitely finding what works for your baby, experiment until you find something. If what works for the baby isn't working for you then you can, gradually and gently tweak things but it does take time and patience.


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## ewe+lamb (Jul 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *robynholly* 
Tell me more about how it causes brain damage. I know he is not hungry because he doesn't want to eat







Thanks for all your help!

When a baby cries the stress hormone cortisol is released, this is the same stress hormone found in you or I or anyone in situations in which we find difficult, in babies because all the energy the baby has is redirected to crying - calling for help - then the energy is used to protect the baby and not to stimulate brain development and growth, a child who is cuddled in beside mum and dad is a reassured and happy child, who is more confident and trustworthy of his/her parents abilities to respond to them and therefore the energy which is not wasted on crying is channelled elsewhere. Find the sleeping solution which works for you, co-sleeping, side-car-ing whatever ... take all clocks away from the bedroom with the incessant tick tick, only consider real waking up if you have to actually get out of bed etc. Maybe you could consider co-sleeping an investment for the future.

If your baby isn't hungry then isn't it reassuring to you, the parent, that your baby is calling for you and needing you - the sucking need is just as important as the actual nutrition a baby can receive from the breast, at this age they are so helpless, (anthropologically we, the human race, are born 9 months premature) you are the only ones who can give them what they need, I have noticed so much in today's society that to show love or affection to a child/baby is, in some cases, strictly forbidden, the new mother out with her baby in the pushchair, so many times I've seen such kind gestures and faces, her hand stretches out to touch, but she hesitates, rarely does the mother feel that she has the right to touch her baby, you do, pick the baby up carry her in your arms, sleep with your child, watch your little one sleeping listen to their soft breathing and heart beating, touch your baby's hand and kiss it, genuine love and caring is all your baby needs, a few more hours of being able to profit from your child's presence is a gift, did you realise what an important person you are? and you know you really are important both you and your partner, profit from this wonderful bonding time together and you'll never regret it.

Sorry got on to my







alittle there







, but its just a sore point that I hear many people discuss the pros and cons of CIO, I can see only the cons!!


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## zomigi (Nov 5, 2008)

Well just as soon as you get super frustrated about sleeping, lo and behold, she sleeps from 11:30 pm to 6:30 am! I know we'll probably be right back to a horrible night again tonight, but it's nice to have some good ones thrown in there when you really need them.

One of my main problems is that DH is really frustrated and isn't totally on board with avoiding CIO. It's hard when both parents aren't in complete agreement. Don't get me wrong -- he's into the attachment parenting stuff to about the same degree as I am, generally. But it's hard for him to completely ignore his upbringing which taught him that babies cry to manipulate you, you spoil them by responding to them, etc. And it's hard for him to ignore the myriad of people who tell us that we have to let our DD cry herself to sleep, including the pediatrician. We know a *ton* of people with babies but don't know a single person who hasn't done CIO. If we could find someone who could actually share their experience of getting their baby to learn to sleep on its own without having to cry, he and I would feel a lot better, I think.

Another hard thing is I'm so unsure of myself -- I don't know if I am making it worse or not. If I didn't let her nap as much during the day, would she sleep better at night? But what am I supposed to do when she's fussing or crying and obviously tired?

Thanks for the encouragement and not being judgmental. Being on this forum usually depresses me, because it's full of people with 2 year olds who still aren't sleeping through the night.  But I know that's not a representative sample, since otherwise they wouldn't be on this forum! Must remember that.


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

Part of what helped me and my husband really not give in to the temptation of CIO the MANY times when our AWFUL sleeper oldest daughter would get us to the point where we wanted to just give up was remembering that it is not the baby who is in the wrong... it is us. Many of our culture's expectations that a child needs to STTN without nursing or STTN at all before the age of 2 or 3 is flawed. We cannot truly expect a child to sleep more than a couple of hours at a certain age... and it is good. It is biological because they need to eat more often and they do not go into deep sleep, this is a survival instinct... not a flaw in their design or a fault in our parenting.

This is truly normal.


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## UhOhWhatNow (Jul 21, 2008)

Mine doesn't CIO, I hate CIO and oppose it.

HOWEVER, sometimes when my son wakes in the middle of the night, I don't pick him up. Sometimes he just makes a few "uck, uck" kind of noises and sucks his hand and goes right back to sleep. This IMO is a great thing- he knows how to go back to sleep. But, if he actually starts to cry or do that breathing thing they do right before they cry, I pick him up, hug and kiss him, sing to him, cuddle him, and offer him the breast. I bring him to bed with me... and nurse him, then try again, or if I fall asleep, he just bed shares with me. This rarely happens to us these days- he's doing 7 hour stretches, and last night he did 9!

I don't have a set bedtime for him. He's only three months old! But even so, I intend to let him sleep when he's tired. If I put him down and he isn't ready, I never ever would just leave him screaming. Aside from thinking it's cruel, it activates my anxiety disorder. My very biology is opposed to CIO.


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## listipton (Jun 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Babies are babies. By definition they need mama. CIO is never okay. Never.

They are little for such a short time. Sleep with them, sleep while they nurse, cuddle them while they let you. Before you know it they'll be too big to cuddle.

-Angela

This is pretty much what I tell people when they ask my opinion on CIO, extended bfing, and responding to my babies when they are cry in general.


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## KristaDJ (May 30, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ewe+lamb* 
When a baby cries the stress hormone cortisol is released, this is the same stress hormone found in you or I or anyone in situations in which we find difficult, in babies because all the energy the baby has is redirected to crying - calling for help - then the energy is used to protect the baby and not to stimulate brain development and growth, a child who is cuddled in beside mum and dad is a reassured and happy child, who is more confident and trustworthy of his/her parents abilities to respond to them and therefore the energy which is not wasted on crying is channelled elsewhere. Find the sleeping solution which works for you, co-sleeping, side-car-ing whatever ... take all clocks away from the bedroom with the incessant tick tick, only consider real waking up if you have to actually get out of bed etc. Maybe you could consider co-sleeping an investment for the future.

If your baby isn't hungry then isn't it reassuring to you, the parent, that your baby is calling for you and needing you - the sucking need is just as important as the actual nutrition a baby can receive from the breast, at this age they are so helpless, (anthropologically we, the human race, are born 9 months premature) you are the only ones who can give them what they need, I have noticed so much in today's society that to show love or affection to a child/baby is, in some cases, strictly forbidden, the new mother out with her baby in the pushchair, so many times I've seen such kind gestures and faces, her hand stretches out to touch, but she hesitates, rarely does the mother feel that she has the right to touch her baby, you do, pick the baby up carry her in your arms, sleep with your child, watch your little one sleeping listen to their soft breathing and heart beating, touch your baby's hand and kiss it, genuine love and caring is all your baby needs, a few more hours of being able to profit from your child's presence is a gift, did you realise what an important person you are? and you know you really are important both you and your partner, profit from this wonderful bonding time together and you'll never regret it.

Sorry got on to my







alittle there







, but its just a sore point that I hear many people discuss the pros and cons of CIO, I can see only the cons!!









:


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

i think 6 mos is a rough time. thats probably when we stopped trying to put DS to bed. he hangs out with us and we hold him and cuddle and such while we watch a movie or w/e and he will fall asleep. sometimes i will go lay in bed with him and listen to books on tape (i get bored laying in a dark room with my half asleep toddler







)


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## UhOhWhatNow (Jul 21, 2008)

LET your baby nap during the day!!!!

The more my baby naps the BETTER he sleeps at night. When your child is sleepy, let her sleep







JMO


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UhOhWhatNow* 
LET your baby nap during the day!!!!

The more my baby naps the BETTER he sleeps at night. When your child is sleepy, let her sleep







JMO

this is true to.. ds naps for at least 2 hrs during the day... sometimes more.


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## frontierpsych (Jun 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UhOhWhatNow* 
LET your baby nap during the day!!!!

The more my baby naps the BETTER he sleeps at night. When your child is sleepy, let her sleep








JMO

yeah, DS sleeps better if he's had some decent naps.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zomigi* 
Well just as soon as you get super frustrated about sleeping, lo and behold, she sleeps from 11:30 pm to 6:30 am! I know we'll probably be right back to a horrible night again tonight, but it's nice to have some good ones thrown in there when you really need them.

One of my main problems is that DH is really frustrated and isn't totally on board with avoiding CIO. It's hard when both parents aren't in complete agreement. Don't get me wrong -- he's into the attachment parenting stuff to about the same degree as I am, generally. But it's hard for him to completely ignore his upbringing which taught him that babies cry to manipulate you, you spoil them by responding to them, etc. And it's hard for him to ignore the myriad of people who tell us that we have to let our DD cry herself to sleep, including the pediatrician. We know a *ton* of people with babies but don't know a single person who hasn't done CIO. If we could find someone who could actually share their experience of getting their baby to learn to sleep on its own without having to cry, he and I would feel a lot better, I think.

Another hard thing is I'm so unsure of myself -- I don't know if I am making it worse or not. If I didn't let her nap as much during the day, would she sleep better at night? But what am I supposed to do when she's fussing or crying and obviously tired?

Thanks for the encouragement and not being judgmental. Being on this forum usually depresses me, because it's full of people with 2 year olds who still aren't sleeping through the night.  But I know that's not a representative sample, since otherwise they wouldn't be on this forum! Must remember that.

Yeah- its hard when you don't know anyone irl. We started doing attachment parenting partly cause of sil's kids turning out so well with co-sleeping, no cio etc. Our kids are doing great too. If its any consolation my 5 yr old and 3 yr old sleep through the night







. I really believe in respecting kids/babies as much as we respect adults. If its not ok to ignore an adults cries of fear, frustration, anger- it doesn't follow that kids/babies cries should be ignored. I know its tempting (I've been there). To get out of discussions with friends/family who suggested cio I would sometimes blame it on my personality "Oh I would just ruin it, I wouldn't be able to stomach the cries" If you want to avoid debate that usually shut people up. You can do it. One night at a time


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zomigi* 
Well just as soon as you get super frustrated about sleeping, lo and behold, she sleeps from 11:30 pm to 6:30 am! I know we'll probably be right back to a horrible night again tonight, but it's nice to have some good ones thrown in there when you really need them.

One of my main problems is that DH is really frustrated and isn't totally on board with avoiding CIO. It's hard when both parents aren't in complete agreement. Don't get me wrong -- he's into the attachment parenting stuff to about the same degree as I am, generally. But it's hard for him to completely ignore his upbringing which taught him that babies cry to manipulate you, you spoil them by responding to them, etc. And it's hard for him to ignore the myriad of people who tell us that we have to let our DD cry herself to sleep, including the pediatrician. We know a *ton* of people with babies but don't know a single person who hasn't done CIO. If we could find someone who could actually share their experience of getting their baby to learn to sleep on its own without having to cry, he and I would feel a lot better, I think.

Another hard thing is I'm so unsure of myself -- I don't know if I am making it worse or not. If I didn't let her nap as much during the day, would she sleep better at night? But what am I supposed to do when she's fussing or crying and obviously tired?

Thanks for the encouragement and not being judgmental. Being on this forum usually depresses me, because it's full of people with 2 year olds who still aren't sleeping through the night.  But I know that's not a representative sample, since otherwise they wouldn't be on this forum! Must remember that.

Well first







b/c I agree it's hard when everyone else is telling you to ignore your instincts.

Second, yes, I do think you should remember that it's not a representative sample. I am the eldest of 11 kids and my mom did co-sleeping w/ all of us. Everyone was different. I think 8 or was it 9 out of the 11 STTN long before 2 years old. IMO there are so many variables that it's just NOT worth it to compare your kid to other kids. Things like birth weight, genetics, diet and personality can all affect sleep patterns.

I wonder if the main reason your baby's sleep patterns are bothering you is simply b/c others are telling you what you should think and feel? For example, I remember telling my midwife that DD was STTN at her 1 week checkup. The MW was surprised and asked for more details. So I told her that DD falls asleep sometime around midnight, wakes up in the middle of the night then again around 6 or 7. She laughed and said good thing that's what we think STTN is.







Perspective can do wonders for parenting.


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## bethanymama (Jun 16, 2009)

I read this board because I *used* to have a bad sleeper... and I feel the pain of all the mamas on here. So I should chime in. We never did CIO (but we also never coslept) and my 16 month DS has been STTN for several months now. Most of the time, unless he was sick, DS seemed to sleep worse in bed with me, so he always used his crib, across the hall in his room. I nursed DS 2-3 times a night until about 9 months, and then 1 time a night until about 11 months old. By night, I mean like 7pm-7am or so. At 12 months old, he was sleeping straight through until 6am without eating. Now, he's 16 months old, and he takes a 2.5-3 hour nap, and sleeps about 10.5 hours at night. Goes right to sleep at naptime and bedtime. So, it is possible!! They WILL sleep, soon, without CIO! Six months is just so little still. There were definitely bad bad spells, but it's all in phases.

He also was ADDICTED to being bounced to sleep. It was so tiring! Some nights I would spend a lot of time in his room, bouncing/rocking him for ages before he would let me lay him back in his crib. He would never just go back to sleep laying next to me. With my DS, he did sometimes have to cry, like when I needed to really break him of the bouncing addiction because my arms were about to fall off, sometimes I would bounce a little and stop, he would cry a little, bounce a little more and stop, etc. So sometimes he was not happy with me, but always in loving arms, with soft comforting voice in his ear.

I would say the things that helped me were routine (although it took a LONG time before he really caught onto it) and the NCSS strategy of changing the things you don't like very very gradually and slowly. Hang it there. It is so hard sometimes.


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## robynholly (Aug 24, 2008)

What is the NCSS strategy of changing things?


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zomigi* 
If we could find someone who could actually share their experience of getting their baby to learn to sleep on its own without having to cry, he and I would feel a lot better, I think.

We did.







But you might have meant in person.

It took quite a long time (over 2) but progress was relatively steady except for - well all the usual things: Growth spurts, teething, colds, and weird sleep regressions. There were certain points at which we pushed things. Like we stopped nursing all the way down, and tried waking him up a bit before his 2 am wakeup, and some night weaning, and a lot of talk about staying asleep, books on sleep, etc.

There were times we were tired, but my husband and I shared the load quite a bit and also slowed things down to take daytime naps on weekends and stuff if we needed to.

He's almost 4 and sleeps fine.

One thing to consider is that CIO doesn't actually work once and for all for most people either. I had a few people insist it worked and then listening carefully, it turns out they had to "redo" it pretty much on the same schedule as my son would increase his wakings.


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## bubbamummy (Feb 25, 2009)

I read 'Baby watching' by Desmond Morris and it tells the hideous truth behind 'CIO'. How it affects the baby in such awful ways. He writes 'some people think responding to a baby who cries is to spoil it, in my opinion a baby has been 'spoiled' when it realises the awful truth that no one responds to its cries and so gives up' (or words very similar). It had me crying when I read it. In my opionion cry-it-out method is never, ever acceptable.


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## bubbamummy (Feb 25, 2009)

We did the NCSS and it worked a charm


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## crpsmnwife (Aug 17, 2007)

Have you read Elizabeth Pantley's No Cry Sleep Solution or checked out AskDrSears.com? They have some good gentle ways to help your baby sleep while maintaining your baby's trust. There have been times when I've felt like I was at the end of my rope with my son, but the cost of CIO is too high for us to pay. My son trusts me to be there for him, to comfort him, to hold him, to meet his needs. His trust is too precious.
And I must say, it DOES GET BETTER! My son is now 22 months old and he no longer nurses to sleep. Now when it's bedtime, he'll nurse, and then say "night night, nunnies", and he'll either have us rock him to sleep, or kiss him to sleep. Yes, he asks us to kiss him. All over his arms, his back, his face, his head - he LOVES it, and it's sooo sweet. It really makes up for all the times I was just plain TIRED of working so hard for my son's sleep. But it's better now, and it's totally worth it! And we read Pantley and Dr. Sears, and had PATIENCE. It'll work out.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

am i the only one who doesn't really worry about bed time? my 16 month old is still awake. i'm getting a little worried now.


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## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1littlebit* 
am i the only one who doesn't really worry about bed time? my 16 month old is still awake. i'm getting a little worried now.









My 8,5 month old is still up and will be for at least another hour.


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

my 2 and a half year old is up too... hopefully she will sleep soon because I am EXHAUSTED.. lol.


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## 1littlebit (Jun 1, 2008)

phew!!! i was starting to wonder..!!!


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## nudhistbudhist (Jan 13, 2009)

I've been strggling for months, and I had read NCSS, which didnt work for me, but I found The Sleep Book by Dr Sears to be a good fit for us. Hang in there


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## OGirlieMama (Aug 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fuamami* 
I do daycare for kids who have CIOed and have also seen the results of it with many of my friends' kids.

I do not believe that it teaches kids to self-soothe. I believe it teaches them to give up, and that bedtime is a time to feel stressed out.

My evidence is that all 3 of my kids will lay in their beds and quietly talk to themselves, read, hum, or fiddle if they can't fall asleep. If they want me, they call me and ask for a drink, an answer to whatever they were thinking about, or sometimes a snuggle, or a rock. But they also usually don't get up, and then usually, they fall asleep pretty quickly. Doesn't that sound wonderful? Doesn't that sound like self-soothing? It is! Wonderful and self-soothing!

I just have to respond to this. I am one-thousand percent against CIO, and never did it with my twins, even though they are both difficult sleepers and I am the only parent home at bedtime 5 nights a week. They are 3.5 years old now and despite 3.5 years of being gently and lovingly parented to sleep, and despite having each other's company at night, they will not lay in their beds and quietly talk, read, hum, or fiddle if they can't fall asleep. They will either lie there and cry for me to come back, or they will get out of bed and find me and cry for me to come back. I think this has much more to do with individual temperment than how a child falls asleep as a baby.

To the OP, I hope the whole discussion here has helped you. I know how tempting it is to believe that CIO is some magic bullet, but it's not. There are the psychological and physiological effects to consider, and also the fact that it doesn't even "work" with all kids.

I will say that one benefit of never doing CIO with my kids was that I felt in some weird way that not doing it meant that I hadn't reached the end of my rope. And that if I did ever get to that awful end, CIO would be there. Sort of in the way that nuclear bombs are there but no one ever wants to or intends to use them. Does that make any weird sense to anyone else but me?


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## Isamama (May 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *claddaghmom* 
Well first







b/c I agree it's hard when everyone else is telling you to ignore your instincts.

Second, yes, I do think you should remember that it's not a representative sample. I am the eldest of 11 kids and my mom did co-sleeping w/ all of us. Everyone was different. I think 8 or was it 9 out of the 11 STTN long before 2 years old. *IMO there are so many variables that it's just NOT worth it to compare your kid to other kids. Things like birth weight, genetics, diet and personality can all affect sleep patterns.
*
I wonder if the main reason your baby's sleep patterns are bothering you is simply b/c others are telling you what you should think and feel? For example, I remember telling my midwife that DD was STTN at her 1 week checkup. The MW was surprised and asked for more details. So I told her that DD falls asleep sometime around midnight, wakes up in the middle of the night then again around 6 or 7. She laughed and said good thing that's what we think STTN is.







Perspective can do wonders for parenting.


Bolding mine. ITA. To be honest, I don't think we can say our kids have "good" sleep habits (i.e., stay in bed and talk with themselves, never run out of the room etc) because we didn't let them CIO. Every kid is different. We did not CIO and our child did all sorts of crazy things before going to bed. She would often resist going to bed and sometimes she was flat out scared (we cosleep). Yes, we listened to our child and parented her, but did that _cause_ her to have better "sleep habits"? No, I don't think so. We were with our child b/c it felt like the right thing to do, not b/c we were trying to "teach" her habits. I think every kid is different. Some just sleep better than others at certain times. I am saying this as all of us who parent at night. I am not comparing us with people who CIO. I mean to say there is huge variation on how our kids respond and sleep, with those of us who parent at night.

One thing I think is pretty universal, is that they do eventually fall asleep on their own. My dd asks to be put to bed sometimes. I do feel for you OP, it felt like it was never going to happen when she was very little. It is all a distant blur from here (not so much of a blur that I want to have another, though







). Sleep deprivation sucks!!!


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## Isamama (May 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OGirlieMama* 
I just have to respond to this. I am one-thousand percent against CIO, and never did it with my twins, even though they are both difficult sleepers and I am the only parent home at bedtime 5 nights a week. They are 3.5 years old now and despite 3.5 years of being gently and lovingly parented to sleep, and despite having each other's company at night, they will not lay in their beds and quietly talk, read, hum, or fiddle if they can't fall asleep. They will either lie there and cry for me to come back, or they will get out of bed and find me and cry for me to come back. I think this has much more to do with individual temperment than how a child falls asleep as a baby.



I posted before I saw this post. Yeah, that!! ITA!!!


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## bethanymama (Jun 16, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *robynholly* 
What is the NCSS strategy of changing things?

NCSS = No Cry Sleep Solution by Elizabeth Pantley. Basically, the way I remember it anyway, is she will try to ease towards a change very gently and gradually. So, the goal is to get your baby to feel comfortable to fall asleep without your help, with the idea that will help her sleep better and wake less throughout the night. If your baby falls asleep nursing, you try to end the nursing session before she is in a deep sleep. But if she protests too much, you give the breast back and try again. And again. And again. And if it never works, and you are tired and she is tired, just nurse to sleep again, and try the next time. And you start very gradually. Maybe she's technically asleep when you first try to remove the breast, but not in a deep deep sleep, and you do that for several days or a week. And you just go from there, at your own pace. It's hard work though, and takes a long time. And a lot of the time it will feel like nothing is changing. But babies are so new to this world, and it takes them a while, but eventually they catch on. But IMO it's worth it in the end.

I agree that sleep habits are really just personality, developmental, whatever. Not doing CIO is definitely not the ticket to having a child that sleeps well. It's just about doing what you are comfortable with, and parenting in the way you feel is the most respectful and caring for your child. There's a lot more to parenting than putting your baby to sleep.


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## Conifer (May 4, 2009)

Just a little story about my experience:

Our DD was about 6 months old and I was still getting up several times in the middle of the night. My DH (now my ex husband) was convinced that I needed to just let her cry for 10 minutes. He would ask me why I got up the second that I heard her fuss. Well one night he was very adamant about me leaving her to cry for 10 minutes. I sat there at the end of my bed staring at the clock completely stressed out, going against every fiber of my being. After 5 minutes I stood up and said "Something is wrong!!!" She had gotten louder and panicked. I ran into her room and her leg was stuck between the crib rails and the wall. She wasn't hurt, but she was so upset and scared. It took about 15 minutes to even get her calm enough for me to nurse her. She was practically hyperventilating. I told DH that I would NEVER NEVER let her cry again. If he didn't want to get up, I would.

A coworker of my exhusband had a baby around the same time and tried to convince me that I was spoiling my baby too. I told him that if he couldn't talk and he was put in a dark room and couldn't get up, couldn't go anywhere, how he would feel. I said that I would scream for someone to come get me and if no one came, if they just left me there, I would feel awful. If I wouldn't do that to an adult, why would I do that to a baby?
He didn't really have a response for that.

Oh and just to let you know, both of my kids were sleeping fine either through the night or getting up only once for a quick feeding by 1 year. I only co-slept with them as newborns, but I responded to their needs VERY quickly. They are still awesome sleepers today (5yrs and 9yrs)...no training necessary









My mantra (passed down from my mother) "this too shall pass"
Keep up the exhausting good work and know that in most cases it is just part of babyhood. How your baby sleeps at 6 months doesn't predict the future.


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## Dreamy (Jun 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *robynholly* 
Tell me more about how it causes brain damage. I know he is not hungry because he doesn't want to eat







Thanks for all your help!

If you can, I'd recommend buying The Science of Parenting by the Director of Education and Training, Centre for Child Mental Health in London.

It is all based on scientific studies on the early brain development of children, and has some great information on the effects of crying on babies.

A quick summary provided on one page is that when a baby is left to cry alone, high levels of toxic stress hormones wash over the brain (cortisol), and there is a withdrawal of the "feel good" chemicals (endorphins) in the brain. Over time, the cortisol inhibits the formation of necessary connections in the brain, and actually causes the stress centre of the brain to become hardwired to be oversensitive. This "damage" can lead to such things as depression and anxiety disorders in adulthood.

Another thing to consider is that when babies are left _alone_ to cry, pain circuits in the brain are activated - the same ones that would be if baby was hurt physically.

I highly recommend this book, it has been a great discussion tool with my DH.

This isn't even addressing the emotional distress that baby and parents go through with CIO - detachment rather than attachment.

Someone here has also posted this list of reasons not to CIO, which is a great summary: http://www.phdinparenting.com/2008/07/05/no-cry-it-out/

My son is 14.5 months old and has slept with us since he was about 3 months old. In the evening we get him to sleep by a) me nursing him b) DH holding and humming to him, or c) patting his back while he lies on his tummy. C is new and doesn't always work, but he's slowly developing the ability to fall asleep without being held. It's perfectly natural, as babies are hardwired to want to always be near a parent (necessary for survivial for millenia), so just try and remember to respect the baby's pace and needs.

As adults, we're the ones who decided to have children, so it's up to us to make the sacrifices - not the innocent babies.


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## makuahine (Mar 10, 2009)

Both my sister and I have had a host of sleeping "issues" throughout childhood and adulthood- mainly insomnia and anxiety about falling asleep. Especially me. When I was about eight or so (with recurring episodes for years) I went through this period of about a year where I would get these paralyzing and terrifying panic attacks if I couldn't fall asleep. I would be hyperventilating and crying and my parents, though not totally unsympathetic, would make me stay in my room alone until I eventually fell asleep. I can't say this with any certainty or proof, but I really believe all my sleep problems have a great deal to do with my parents leaving me to cry it out in my own room right from the first day they brought me home from the hospital. My parents are avid supporters of CIO.

I do understand why some people practice CIO. My daughter (seven months) has never been a good sleeper and is still up every two hours at night. I am exhausted and I don't think I am ever going to have another child for this very reason. However, I believe there is this bond of trust between a baby and her parents (mother in particular) that when baby cries her mother responds as quickly as she can. If this bond is broken, especially if it is broken over and over again, there is both short term and long term damage to the baby. This is all my opinion, I have no evidence or sources to back it up other than my own childhood, but this is one of the MANY reasons I will never let my daughter CIO.

Good luck- I know how hard it is to be so tired, but keep telling yourself it won't last forever!


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## tessie (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *syd'smom* 
Here's one article for you!

The Harvard study doesn't actually prove that CIO causes damage. In fact I don't think there are any studies which prove conclusively it does or does not. Whether this is because it doesn't cause harm, the harm isn't quantifiable or it's a tricky subject to study ethically, I don't know.

I do agree with the poster who said that a heck of a lot of it is personality. But it is possible to help a child develop good sleep habits. Of course the degree of success you have will at least depend in part on personality.

To the OP: I hope the good sleeps continue.


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## alexsam (May 10, 2005)

A few more things the CIO people don't often say...

1.) It may "work", but often just for a while. Different needs will disrupt sleep patters. So, you "try CIO" and eureka! It "works"! 2 months later, baby catches a cold, is up at night and you are back to "square one", going through the nighttime screaming CIO deal again. Many people who CIO go through the process many, many times. It is not a "solution". And, who is to say that the "good sleeping" and the "bad sleeping" would not have happened independently, when the babies were ready?

2.) There is a toll on parents. Many people focus on the "but then they sleep" idea. They do not talk about the distraught parents on the other side of the door, "waiting" for the right time to go in, feeling lousy listening to their baby cry. I've heard a lot of CIO'ers describing how they themselves cried on the other side of the door.

3.) Virtually everyone I know who has done (or tried) CIO has been at the end of their rope. It is very rarely a "first choice" and very often a last resort. I think this is telling.


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

Heres our sleep story. For the first, oh probably 18 months or so of my DS' life (he's nearly 28 months now) we had *NO* schedule at all, what so ever. DS fell asleep when he fell asleep, and woke up when he woke up. *Usually* this was by/around 9ish at night. I generally held him, or wore him, for naps for the first year or so then gradually started laying him down. But naps were mostly unscheduled to (though he usually took one ~10amish, and one ~2pmish). Around 15-18 or so months I started laying down with him upstairs in our bed around 8:30-9ish untill he fell asleep. I also started laying down with him around 2ish and then getting up once he fell asleep and doing other stuff around the house (Ok, so mostly reading/messing on MDC...).

Then, one day, around 22 or so months I'd had a *very* long morning and he was cranky and upset and I just took him upstairs and layed him down and said 'its nap time. Its sleep time. Go. To. Sleep.' and walked away and closed the door... and you know what? He cried for like 15 seconds... and then he FELL ASLEEP. And so thats what we started doing at nap time, and then gradually at bedtime. Sometime in the past 3 months or so, we've fallen into a very definet routine for both nap & bedtimes - naps are ~2pmish, read 3-4 books and then nap time. He usually whines "mama..." as I leave, but I can deal with that since he then falls asleep. Bedtime is 8:30-9pmish and we read 2-4 books of his choosing, then I Love You Because Your You, then Guess How Much I Love You and finally Goodnight Moon. In that order. Every. Single. Night. (unless he falls asleep during one, in which case I get to skip one or two!!







). And just like at nap time he whines for 5-10 seconds, rolls over and goes to sleep.

I should say that we also moved him into a 'big boy bed' around the time we developed this routine. And that he does often wake up at night (2-4ish is typical) and I just take him back to his room and tell him its still sleepy time and he goes back to sleep. Its amazing. Its wonderful. But I can not imagine making him truely CIO, not now, and not ever... 10-30 seconds of whining I can deal with. 5, 10, 15 minutes? No way. Nor can I even begin to imagine locking him in his room at night.


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## verdant (Apr 8, 2013)

I've researched information for weeks about sleep patterns, CIO, non-CIO methods and have come to this conclusion. There is virtually NO scientific evidence that suggests that CIO is toxic to children. The only evidence these "experts" can draw upon are studies of abused children. These children may not be fed, clothed and are neglected in more ways than just abandonment. If one thinks that CIO and abuse are correlated then that is an opinion. These are the facts when we cry we relieve ourselves of toxic hormones. Sleep deprivation can CAUSE these toxic hormones to build up and cause brain damage in the forms of many brain diseases we know today. Children lack the frontal lobe development to reason that they may be tired. One may choose to breastfeed an inconsolable child as it provides oxytocin and other biochemical that can soothe the baby but breastfeeding is primarily for food. I am more concerned about the associations between breastfeeding for comfort and the long term habits of emotional eating. We are one of the top 20 countries with an obesity epidemic, childhood obesity no less, which interestingly enough can also be a symptom of among other things including lack of sleep. Babies cry, it's what they do, nobody is a bad mother because their child cries. They will continue to cry long after they mature into adults. A sleep deprived mother is nothing to sneer at- I hurt my baby because I did not get enough sleep. I am the primary caregiver. I dropped him, my reflexes were too slow and he could have been hurt a lot worse than he was. This is the reality of sleep deprivation. Some people have easy children and others have high needs but if caregivers aren't well rested their children are at risk for danger. The links for my claims are listed below in order.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...merican+Journal+of+Ophthalmology,+92:559-567,

http://acsh.org/2013/10/study-shows-sleep-enhances-removal-potentially-toxic-brain-debris/
https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/issue_briefs/brain_development/how.cfm
http://www.fao.org/publications/sofa/en/
http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/childhood/problem.html
http://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/features/important-sleep-habits

EDITED TO ADD on 11/10/15:

I am deeply ashamed to admit that I suggested that CIO isn't harmful because it does have indisputable negative repercussions. The studies I have reproduced do not even begin to quantify what happens when CIO is performed on innocent children. Children cry for a reason, please, find out what that reason may be! Babies have needs, too. I've often wondered how many babies have died due to this awful advice. In the medical community, a baby's death is called SIDS, parents are never given a reason why their child died. A baby could very well have been crying about the very issue which may have led to it's death. It is important to be vigilant against such circumstances. Every cry will not be an urgent one but it is important to listen. Don't be afraid to set boundaries but remember your children's needs. I was indoctrinated by my pediatrician to believe that CIO was the only way to achieve rest but there are so many other wonderful methods:

-The 90 Minute Baby Sleep Program by Dr. Polly Moore

As a new parent, I was clueless about babies' sleeping patterns. This book shows you how to to work with a child's circadian rhythm to optimize their sleep. With the hectic nature of birth and postpartum we feel like children sleep erratically but I'm relieved to tell you there is a predictable pattern in their sleep - you've just got to look for it.

-The No Cry Sleep Solution by Elizabeth Pantley

This book has indispensable advice on how to gently create more structure for bedtime.

-The Sleep Sense Program by Dana Obleman

This is specifically a non cry it out program for parents who would like to help their children create a new sleep routine.

-The Aware Baby by Aletha Solter

This book talks about the power of attachment parenting, how to accept your child's feelings and how to lovingly support your baby when they need to release frustration or cry in your arms.

Please reach out to someone, a neighbor, a friend, a relative or our forum if you are too tired to carry on. Take heart, parenting isn't an easy journey but it is a rewarding pursuit if we put in the work to care for our children. The way we treat our kids matter. This sets the foundation for the future. When you answer your baby's cry, you are doing more than parenting. You are molding a mind, laying the groundwork for proper neural circuiting, you are showing empathy to a being who will show empathy to others. Little else will make an impact like empathy - it will change the world. Please remember the bigger picture.


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## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

None of your links were to research demonstration the CIO is not harmful. I'm not sure what point you were trying to make with them.

There are actually several studies suggesting that CIO may be harmful. One which found that while babies do stop crying and their mother's levels of stress hormones return to normal the babies levels do not. So they are not "self-soothing" just learning not to cry. Which is not the same thing at all.

There is also *no* evidence that breast feeding for comfort leads to emotional overeatimg in later life. On the contrary, breast feeding is associated with healthy weight later in life.

I do not underestimate the effects of sleep deprivation on parents. Sleep deprivation has long been used as a form of torture. But there is no evidence to support CIO and developing evidence of its harm. Make no mistake about that.

You may also like to check the User Agreement before you post again. MDC does not allow pro-CIO posting.


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## verdant (Apr 8, 2013)

If you were looking for any propaganda pro CIO then my point might not ring clear. I was simply stating facts I'm not endorsing anyone's ideology. People have opinions but when drawing conclusions is it imperative to look at the facts. I'd like to see the references to those studies if you don't mind.


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## Asiago (Jul 1, 2009)

This may help:

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1998/04.09/ChildrenNeedTou.html

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/moral-landscapes/201112/dangers-crying-it-out


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## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamamayhem*
> 
> If you were looking for any propaganda pro CIO then my point might not ring clear. I was simply stating facts I'm not endorsing anyone's ideology. People have opinions but when drawing conclusions is it imperative to look at the facts. I'd like to see the references to those studies if you don't mind.


I can assure you that I am not looking for pro-CIO propaganda. I am wholeheartedly against CIO for both health and ethical reasons.

Here is the link to the research I mentioned http://www.earlyhumandevelopment.com/article/S0378-3782(11)00270-2/abstract

Please note that I am *not* claiming it is the one study to end them all. Simply that it adds weight to the argument against CIO.

ETA - here is the link to the Australian Association for Infant Mental Health position paper on CIO. They include a bibliography at the end
http://www.aaimhi.org/inewsfiles/controlled_crying.pdf


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## Backroads (May 4, 2013)

While I enjoyed reading these last few posts, I thought this entire subforum discouraged any discussion of CIO or sleep training whatosever--it either being against policy or simply not the right forum for it.


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## pokeyac (Apr 1, 2011)

This thread is from 2009. If you have an issue you would like to discuss, it is better to start a new discussion rather than reviving something that is 4 years old. Mothering does not host pro-CIO discussion. Please see the forum guidelines. @mamamayhem please edit your posts or they will be removed.

Thank you


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## verdant (Apr 8, 2013)

@acpokey Delete my post if you must, I certainly will not interfere with your duties. I am a sleep deprived mom looking for concrete answers and while I respect and admire your viewpoints, the truth is, I am finding it impractical in terms of my situation. Thank you @Asiago and @katelove for posting the links to the studies. I definitely agree that babies need love and affection and sensitivity regarding their needs.


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## pokeyac (Apr 1, 2011)

I am going to lock this thread as it is a few years old. New discussions can be started elsewhere. Mothering does not host pro-CIO discussion. I would like to thank our members here for keeping the conversation civil and for providing research to back up your statements.


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