# How old is too old for a girl to go shirtless?



## mamazee

I have a 4-year-old who doesn't always like to wear a shirt, and my older daughter also didn't like to wear a shirt when she was little. (Or pants for that matter.) If we go out somewhere, I put a shirt on her, but around the house and yard I let her be how she wants.

I have had a neighbor comment on it and she said that my daughter was getting a little old to run around without a shirt. Her shirtless body isn't different than a boy's shirtless body at this point so I don't get it.

And then at the beach a couple of summers ago I remember a lifeguard told the mother of a really young girl - like 18 months or so - that the girl had to be wearing a shirt. She was just wearing a swim diaper.

I'm trying to remember when I would have the older one put a shirt on when she was outside. (I don't care about inside.) She might have decided to wear one herself at some point because I don't remember a conversation about that.

Do you think there's an age where girls should wear shirts?


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## emma415

Our 9yo DD sometimes doesn't wear a shirt at home, including in the yard at times (but not for too long b/c of the sun). Our yard is really private, however, so there's no one who could see her. She always wears a shirt out in public. She hasn't started developing yet, so there's nothing to hide.

At 4 going around without a shirt at home doesn't seem like a big deal at all, especially if she knows she has to wear a shirt when you go someplace. I'd probably ignore the neighbor.

As for an age, it really depends on the situation. Maybe 6 or so in a semi-private situation like a yard that others can see is reasonable - but I'd think she'd want to wear a shirt outside around then anyway if there's a chance other people could see her.

But an 18 month old wearing a swim diaper at the beach? Yeah, no shirt is fine there. As long as she has plenty of sunscreen on, that is .


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## MichelleZB

I dunno, like, 5 or 6? Hard to say.


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## Emaye

I really don't get this at all. I had a similar experience at a water fountain park with my then three year old splashing shirtless like her older brother. Someone came up to me and told me it was inappropriate. She was 3! I would have thought a pre-develpment girl chest has the same rights as its counter part.


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## meemee

i was told at 2 dd needs a shirt on. not from just one person, but a number of persons.


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## kitteh

This makes no sense to me at all, and seems to indicate a hyper-oversexualization of breasts since we can't even stand the thought of them being exposed, years before they even begin to grow! Ridiculous. Until my daughters actually begin to develop, I intend to let them go shirtless in any setting where it would be reasonable and acceptable for a boy of the same age to be topless.


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## contactmaya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *meemee*
> 
> i was told at 2 dd needs a shirt on. not from just one person, but a number of persons.


Thats a joke. I really hope noone takes that seriously.


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## One_Girl

In our city ten is legally too old unless you are breastfeeding but it is rare to see even a preschool age girl shirtless though because most are out of diapers and use a swimsuit in water. Casual nudity in the home is different and that really depends on the child.


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## FaerieMom4

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kitteh*
> 
> This makes no sense to me at all, and seems to indicate a hyper-oversexualization of breasts since we can't even stand the thought of them being exposed, years before they even begin to grow! Ridiculous. Until my daughters actually begin to develop, I intend to let them go shirtless in any setting where it would be reasonable and acceptable for a boy of the same age to be topless.


I completely agree.


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## AllisonR

Many of the kids here go swimming only once or twice a year, so no bathing suits, just their skin. Most teens and adults have something on, although they can be naked if they want. Actually the teens are more covered than the adults, in general. My kids both have swim suits, so they use them, and I think my 9yo would now prefer that, even if he could go naked. I think my 6yo wouldn't care. And I don't care what others think of it. The only ones who would think it strange are the foreigners.


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## meemee

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> Thats a joke. I really hope noone takes that seriously.


oh no. it wasnt a joke. some neighbors wanted to call CPS on me.


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## mammal_mama

In retrospect, I think they're "too old" to go shirtless at whatever point that they themselves start wanting to cover up. Due to most preteen and teen's high sensitivity to social norms, I think most girls will automatically start covering their breasts well before the time when they actually start developing. I'm not saying that our society "should" sexualize breasts, but simply that because it does, girls seem to really absorb that idea quite well without even needing any help from their mothers, by the time they reach the point of actually having a chest that looks any different from a boy's.

But when dd1 was somewhere around 3 or 4, I remember thinking that she needed to "get used to" the idea of covering her breasts out in public because she would need to when she was older. I now think that was kind of silly of me, because I've learned, as I mentioned above, that when kids reach a certain age they generally become quite sensitive to social norms. I'd say dd1 is now much more aware about being "in public" than I am. It literally humiliated her a while back when we took a walk together, and I didn't bother to change out of my skirt but just put on my socks and tennis shoes and headed out the door.

She feels like any time she leaves the house, she's "in public," while I see taking a walk as in a different category than, say, going to church or to a party.


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## queenjane

I was at a local park this summer and there was a splash area with sprayers and whatnot. There was a little girl there maybe 2 or 3 yrs old not wearing a shirt. I have to say even though i totally get what everyone here is saying....i was a bit taken aback. EVERY other girl was covered except this one. She wasnt a young toddler or baby. I have a two yr old foster daughter and it would not occur to me to let her walk around in public without a shirt on. Heck my BOYS wear swim shirts most of the time when swimming.

I'm not saying it was good or bad but definitely stood out as being different than what was the norm for that particular setting.


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## mammal_mama

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *queenjane*
> 
> I was at a local park this summer and there was a splash area with sprayers and whatnot. There was a little girl there maybe 2 or 3 yrs old not wearing a shirt. I have to say even though i totally get what everyone here is saying....i was a bit taken aback. EVERY other girl was covered except this one. She wasnt a young toddler or baby. I have a two yr old foster daughter and it would not occur to me to let her walk around in public without a shirt on. Heck my BOYS wear swim shirts most of the time when swimming.
> 
> I'm not saying it was good or bad but definitely stood out as being different than what was the norm for that particular setting.


I think it's definitely true that our ideas about appropriateness are affected by what seems to be "the norm" among those around us. I think that years ago, when I felt like my 4 year old dd needed to wear a shirt to "be prepared" for when she actually would have breasts that differed from male breasts, I was definitely affected by the culture of the conservative homeschoolers that we were currently spending a lot of time with. In that culture, there is such a strong belief in the differing roles of males and females, that clothing choices for many parents go waaay beyond even just having the girls "shirt up."

When you believe that there are so many strict rules for living a good life, and that those rules originate from someplace outside of you and you need to internalize and conform to them, raising children becomes such a hard task and you think a lot about whether letting your child do something now might be "setting a precedent" and making it harder for her to tow the line later.

Moving out of that culture, into a much more liberal homeschooling/unschooling community, introduced me to a world in which many parents are comfortable not just with shirtlessness for girls, but with children choosing/discovering their own approaches to gender. And I've come to strongly believe that we are born already connected to truth and goodness, so rather than having to work so hard to enforce a bunch of external rules, I can relax and watch them to see how they interact in various situations.

So now I would say that when it comes to norms, I think it's usually healthiest to let my children determine which norms they want to comply with and which ones they don't care about, with the exception that I do feel we all need to be reasonably clean when we go out in public.


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## queenjane

Quote:


> Moving out of that culture, into a much more liberal homeschooling/unschooling community, introduced me to a world in which many parents are comfortable not just with shirtlessness for girls, but with children choosing/discovering their own approaches to gender. And I've come to strongly believe that we are born already connected to truth and goodness, so rather than having to work so hard to enforce a bunch of external rules, I can relax and watch them to see how they interact in various situations.
> 
> So now I would say that when it comes to norms, I think it's usually healthiest to let my children determine which norms they want to comply with and which ones they don't care about, with the exception that I do feel we all need to be reasonably clean when we go out in public.


I def. dont live in a conservative area and am a (former) unschooling parent. But while i agree with a lot of what you wrote i think there is an additional component which is giving our kids enough information so they can make informed choices. If my child wants to wear something to school that may cause him to be teased or get in trouble or anything like that i think its part of my job as a parent to help him be aware of the possible outcomes. That doesnt apply so much to a 2 yr old not wearing a top at the beach....but if it were a five or seven yr old? and it was the cultural norm for girls that age to wear one? i'd be giving a lot more info than just eh do what you want, isnt freedom great (which seems to be the default of many unschooling parents, not necessarily anyone here.)


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## ancoda

Most kids it is hard to tell if they are a boy or a girl till around age 6-8. I know a lot of girls with short hair and lots of boys with long hair. So to me they are fine without a shirt until around age 8.

That said my boys are very rarely alowd to be shirtless, so I do not see me letting my girl go shirtless either past about age 2 even in the house.


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## contactmaya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *queenjane*
> 
> I was at a local park this summer and there was a splash area with sprayers and whatnot. *There was a little girl there maybe 2 or 3 yrs old not wearing a shirt. I have to say even though i totally get what everyone here is saying....i was a bit taken aback. EVERY other girl was covered except this one. She wasnt a young toddler or baby.* I have a two yr old foster daughter and it would not occur to me to let her walk around in public without a shirt on. Heck my BOYS wear swim shirts most of the time when swimming.
> 
> I'm not saying it was good or bad but definitely stood out as being different than what was the norm for that particular setting.


Well, i think its bad, and very sad.


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## mammal_mama

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *queenjane*
> 
> But while i agree with a lot of what you wrote i think there is an additional component which is giving our kids enough information so they can make informed choices. If my child wants to wear something to school that may cause him to be teased or get in trouble or anything like that i think its part of my job as a parent to help him be aware of the possible outcomes.


Yes, I agree that it's important for our children to be well-informed, especially when going into new situations on their own. With unschooling, children tend to branch out into situations without their parents somewhat later than the age at which most children start school. I realize there's a lot of variation among children, but my own girls were well beyond the 5 to 7-year age range when they started expressing a desire to do stuff without their dad or me present. Dd2, at 8, still seems happiest when I'm with her.

Dd1 expressed the desire to attend public school a year ago at age 12, and it took us a year to send her because of our desire to give her a chance to get more comfortable with reading before sending her into a setting where she'd likely be needing to read whole chapters for assignments, and possibly read out loud sometimes. And she agreed that this was a good idea and got busy with it. Even though that's not a clothing-related example, it's an example of some information, or a skill, that we felt like she needed to have in order to feel successful in a school setting.

But as far as social issues like how to dress, by the time she wanted to go to school, she was much more adept than her dad or I at figuring out what worked and what didn't. Which I think may be why many unschooling parents seem like they're set to the "isn't freedom great" default that you spoke of -- if unschooled children end up in situations like a public school setting where they're likely to get ridiculed for wearing a particular outfit, it's because they themselves are the ones seeking these experiences out, and when they want to be in particular setting, they're usually eager to absorb all those unwritten rules -- or if they choose to fly in the face of some norms, as dd1 sometimes does, they've already weighed out the risk and often devised their own plan for dealing with any fallout.


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## contactmaya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mammal_mama*
> 
> *Yes, I agree that it's important for our children to be well-informed,* especially when going into new situations on their own. With unschooling, children tend to branch out into situations without their parents somewhat later than the age at which most children start school. I realize there's a lot of variation among children, but my own girls were well beyond the 5 to 7-year age range when they started expressing a desire to do stuff without their dad or me present. Dd2, at 8, still seems happiest when I'm with her.
> 
> Dd1 expressed the desire to attend public school a year ago at age 12, and it took us a year to send her because of our desire to give her a chance to get more comfortable with reading before sending her into a setting where she'd likely be needing to read whole chapters for assignments, and possibly read out loud sometimes. And she agreed that this was a good idea and got busy with it. Even though that's not a clothing-related example, it's an example of some information, or a skill, that we felt like she needed to have in order to feel successful in a school setting.
> 
> But as far as social issues like how to dress, by the time she wanted to go to school, she was much more adept than her dad or I at figuring out what worked and what didn't. Which I think may be why many unschooling parents seem like they're set to the "isn't freedom great" default that you spoke of -- if unschooled children end up in situations like a public school setting where they're likely to get ridiculed for wearing a particular outfit, it's because they themselves are the ones seeking these experiences out, and when they want to be in particular setting, they're usually eager to absorb all those unwritten rules -- or if they choose to fly in the face of some norms, as dd1 sometimes does, they've already weighed out the risk and often devised their own plan for dealing with any fallout.


Perhaps reframe the question to-'at what age should a girl be informed that most girls her age, wear a top event though they dont really need to?'

(apologies for not reading the full last couple of posts....in a hurry)


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## mammal_mama

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> Perhaps reframe the question to-'at what age should a girl be informed that most girls her age, wear a top event though they dont really need to?'


That's a good way of putting it, LOL! The funny thing is, by the time they're old enough to even care, they're already paying attention themselves to what most girls their age are wearing and they seriously don't need us to tell them. And when they're too young to even care, they probably don't need the information.


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## WifeofAnt

If you can shave their head, put them in some boy's swim trunks, and no one will actually know they are female... they are definitely young enough to go without a top. I don't like even taking my son out without a UV shirt though.


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## JollyGG

I remember my daughter still going shirtless in public the summer before kindergarten. I know because my cousin thought it was completely inappropriate to allow her to go shirtless at that age when we were at the spray park and I disagreed. However, once she was in school she quickly understood the social norms of her school peer group and only goes shirtless at home or places more private. I never had to enforce anything. She quickly figured it out on her own.

What I find really funny is that the cousin who thought 5 was too old for my daughter to go shirtless at the spray park allows her daughter to wear stuff I'd never let my daughter wear because I believe the outfits are way to mature or feature characters (such as Monster High) that exemplify over sexualization of young girls. Both our girls are now 7.


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## kitteh

That is funny and seems ironic at first. But really, I guess it makes sense that your cousin embraces these things like Monster High which encourage oversexualization of girls and women, because it seems that she has absorbed that message. Not allowing our small girls to go topless in public (when we'd allow a boy of the same age to do so) shows an internalization of the oversexualization that's rampant in our society.


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## mammal_mama

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kitteh*
> 
> That is funny and seems ironic at first. But really, I guess it makes sense that your cousin embraces these things like Monster High which encourage oversexualization of girls and women, because it seems that she has absorbed that message. Not allowing our small girls to go topless in public (when we'd allow a boy of the same age to do so) shows an internalization of the oversexualization that's rampant in our society.


Yes, it really does.


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## LilyKay

2, 3 or 4 year-olds need to be covered?

Honestly when I read the title of this thread I thought the age discussed will be around 8 or 9. I've let DD run around naked on our terrace, on the beach and even around friends when on vacation. No one cares, she's 3. I actually make a point of not putting on a bra-like thing on her when we go swimming. Why does she need to wear a bikini top when she has no breasts to cover. I can't imagine this happening here but if someone would even think to say something, I'd respond with "Are you telling me a 4-year old's chest exposed makes you uncomfortable?"

This is truly sad, that at the age of 3 or 4, some people expect girls to cover up more than boys. As if it is not enough that girls have a lot more body-image & appearance issues to go through...


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## contactmaya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LilyKay*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2, 3 or 4 year-olds need to be covered?
> 
> Honestly when I read the title of this thread I thought the age discussed will be around 8 or 9. I've let DD run around naked on our terrace, on the beach and even around friends when on vacation. No one cares, she's 3. I actually make a point of not putting on a bra-like thing on her when we go swimming. Why does she need to wear a bikini top when she has no breasts to cover. I can't imagine this happening here but if someone would even think to say something, I'd respond with "Are you telling me a 4-year old's chest exposed makes you uncomfortable?"
> 
> This is truly sad, that at the age of 3 or 4, some people expect girls to cover up more than boys. As if it is not enough that girls have a lot more body-image & appearance issues to go through...


Your post is truly refreshing.


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## EineMutti

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LilyKay*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2, 3 or 4 year-olds need to be covered?
> 
> Honestly when I read the title of this thread I thought the age discussed will be around 8 or 9. I've let DD run around naked on our terrace, on the beach and even around friends when on vacation. No one cares, she's 3. I actually make a point of not putting on a bra-like thing on her when we go swimming. Why does she need to wear a bikini top when she has no breasts to cover. I can't imagine this happening here but if someone would even think to say something, I'd respond with "Are you telling me a 4-year old's chest exposed makes you uncomfortable?"
> 
> This is truly sad, that at the age of 3 or 4, some people expect girls to cover up more than boys. As if it is not enough that girls have a lot more body-image & appearance issues to go through...


The cultural differences are quite extreme, right? My advice last year would have been: Girls can go shirtless until the youngest of their peers are starting to bud, so eight or nine. Age for not going naked I would have said 6-7.

Now, in the UK, babies are never naked in public and I would said cover a girl up at school age, so after her fourth birthday.

Bring FKK back! (maybe not...)

In summer, when my DS was 5 and in the KITA, the kids were outside by the sprinklers. Starkers. It was completely normal. Here, a mum made a big fuss because her 3-year-old girl ran out of toilet into the hall without her pants on, as she had wet herself. And there were four-year-olds present. She was really upset about.


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## contactmaya

Yes, i agree that cultural differences are playing a big role in this discussion...

I remember a woman berating me for letting my 2yo boy go naked in the sprinklers...i still shake my head when i think about it.


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## aggie pop

I remember being shirtless at age 6 washing the car with my dad and my neighbor friend wandered over (same age) and made fun of me. That was the last time I went shirtless 

Fortunately we live in another country now and shirts are mostly optional regardless of sex (it's a beach town in central america/caribbean). I don't like the idea of telling anyone they need to cover anything up... although when my son had his 4th birthday I had to inform him he wasn't allowed to run around without shorts and underpants or *something* in our restaurant! It was sad, but it had to be done.


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## OkiMom

None of mine are allowed topless no matter the age BUT we have very light sensitive skin. Even 5 minutes with sunscreen can result in sunburn so its a health reason. If it wasn't an issue Id say if they are starting to develop breasts they should probably have a shirt on. Just because there are creepy people out there.

Im very conservative in my dress (I don't even wear tank tops) but Im not going to enforce how I dress on others. If mom/dad are comfortable with it I see no issue.


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## Theleastofthese

I probably would say about 3 or 4, but I rarely even let DS go out in public without a shirt. At the beach and pools he always has a UV shirt on because its easier than slathering him with sunblock.

However, if I have girls, I probably won't let them ever go shirtless in public. They will most likely wear Uv shirts at the beach, too. I live overseas in Latin America and sexual abuse is rampant in the city we are currently in. I would hesitate to let a girl of mine who is even 2 or 3 years old go shirtless anywhere because of this. You start thinking different, almost paranoid, when you know some girls who are 7 and 8 being sexually abused. I see girls up to probably age 6 or 8 go shirtless here, and walk around at the store in just their underwear until age 3 or 4. I know that sometimes its a sign of the girl beign abused, sometimes its just because its hot out.

Its obviously different in the US (and I would imagine Europe, but I haven't been there) so that's why I would say 3 or 4 would be ok there.


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## horsegal98

I don't feel uncomfortable yet when my 7 year old doesn't wear a top, but I'm guessing it will only be a year or two a she is getting more modest.


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## olimama826

I think my main concern would be that being shirtless past baby age would potentially attract the attention of some pervert. Maybe I've watched too much TV. :/ Also, I only have a baby son (8 months) so I'm not really basing that on any experience. There are lots of creeps out there and I'd rather not bring any extra attention


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## sillysapling

You don't want to put your kids at risk, you want to protect them, but at the same time- the way we teach women to live in fear and be ashamed of their bodies is pretty awful. I think most girls do automatically reach a point where they aren't comfortable being topless, which is sad, but it does offer protection. I don't know how to handle a kid who really wants to be allowed to go topless even after the point where it'll garner bad attention. As long as it's legal, I'd love to be able to say "Go for it, it's your body, own your skin and embrace the feel of the sun on your breasts", but there is risk in it. Even explaining the risks, at what age are kids truly old enough to recognize the risks and make that decision for themselves?

I don't agree with making kids into political statements, I don't think it's okay to encourage a child to be topless when they don't want to be, I'm not sure how to handle it when the kid wants to make themself a political statement. Most really aren't able to handle that level of rebellion. Rebelling against curfew is one thing. Rebelling against deeply held societal beliefs is another!

Mostly, it's just sad that this is even a question. It's sad that women have to worry about whether their freaking hairstyle will make them the target of rape, that they have to go to extreme lengths to feel safe. It's sad that kids can't just be kids.

Inside the house, just family- yeah, no age limit. It's a lot cheaper to go shirtless than it is to crank up the AC. I don't even know if I'd say there's an age limit on nakedness. If one sibling is getting uncomfortable with another being naked, then that'd have to be sorted out (maybe switch to "nakedness in your room only", provided they don't share a room). Unless the naked sibling is still not potty trained and the nakedness is part of potty training. At that point: get over it.


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## contactmaya

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sillysapling*
> 
> I don't agree with making kids into political statements, I don't think it's okay to encourage a child to be topless when they don't want to be


II dont think anyone here has suggested that, where did you get that idea?

You pass on your own views of shame/nakedness if you believe its a problem. Ive observed that children go through a phase where they desire privacy anyway.


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## sillysapling

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *contactmaya*
> 
> II dont think anyone here has suggested that, where did you get that idea?
> 
> You pass on your own views of shame/nakedness if you believe its a problem. Ive observed that children go through a phase where they desire privacy anyway.


Where did I say anyone else had suggested that? I didn't.

And privacy doesn't mean clothes. There are people who are really inclined towards partial/total nudity who only go along with clothes due to societal pressure. I do think a lot of kids hit an awkward stage when puberty begins of wanting to cover up, but not all do.


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## pumabearclan

I say that if your daughter wants to go topless in the USA you should make the space for her to do so: hiking/camping, privacy of home, among like-minded friends. Topless is totally OK for women in many places in the world. If she must have a top, please explain to her that it's for her own security in THIS culture (not every culture).


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## Jammarie

mamazee said:


> I have a 4-year-old who doesn't always like to wear a shirt, and my older daughter also didn't like to wear a shirt when she was little. (Or pants for that matter.) If we go out somewhere, I put a shirt on her, but around the house and yard I let her be how she wants.
> 
> I have had a neighbor comment on it and she said that my daughter was getting a little old to run around without a shirt. Her shirtless body isn't different than a boy's shirtless body at this point so I don't get it.
> 
> And then at the beach a couple of summers ago I remember a lifeguard told the mother of a really young girl - like 18 months or so - that the girl had to be wearing a shirt. She was just wearing a swim diaper.
> 
> I'm trying to remember when I would have the older one put a shirt on when she was outside. (I don't care about inside.) She might have decided to wear one herself at some point because I don't remember a conversation about that.
> 
> Do you think there's an age where girls should wear shirts?


I took my two and a half old niece on vacation with my son and my other nephews and when I sent a picture of my niece and nephews shirtless walking from the beach to our suite and through the lobby to her mom, she got really upset which totally caught me off guard. I don't see what the big deal is with a two or three year old girl not wearing a shirt but whatever.


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