# CPS showed up at my door today.



## UCmamaToMany (May 23, 2005)

Around 3-3:30 Michiagn Social workers or CPS whatever they are call here came to my door with a complaint of child neglect, unsupervised children, and "uneducated" children due to homeschooling. They stated that my children (ages 8, 7, 5, 3, 2, and 1 BTW) could not read or write, or write their name. I was really pissed at the homeschooling allegation the most. My 5 yo can write his name is starting to learn how to read. My older 2 know how to read, my 7yo better than my 8yo but hey all kids are different and I even had my 7yo read out of the solar system book we were learning from earlier.

While it's beside the point I am just really unnerved and scared.

Thankfully through other's experiences I knew better than to let them into my house, which was kind of dissheveled because, well I have 6 kids! I tolod them not without a warrant. They said it'd be a court order, and I said ok then get a court order then, I know my rights. Then they tried to use a little scare tactic and said I was just making it harder on myself. I of course didn't care. My worst fear just knocked on my door and I was not about to let them in unprepared!

I have called church friends, family, HSDLA, lawyer friends, and feel somewhat prepared when and IF they come back.

I am really really needing some links and help in what to do next to prepare myself as best as possible.

The thing that really started this was and is my 2 youngest boys who are 2 and 3(almost 4). They are escape artists and when they see an opportunity they will leave the house and go into the front yard and the 2yo heads into the street. It scares me SH-less and we've taken precautions with triple locking the doors but with older kids they sometimes forget to lock the doors. I try my best but it's not always perfect you know? I've had neighbors complain to me and understandably so, but I'm not neglecting them or not watching them. I usually get them, back into the house ASAP or as soon as I realise they are out there.

What I seriously don't get is how ANYONE can assess my children's academic status based on not even knowing me or the kids?! How would they know whether or not my children can read or write? It pisses me off! I have letters from my girls even from today that they wrote themselves. They e-mail their Abuela, and write her letters. My 5yo son's Sunday school teacher knows that he can write his name and she said he can do it well. My 7yo can read at about a 3 grade level in my opinion, and I know my 8yo is a little behind but that's the way she is and I don't worry about it. She does her best and we work with her. She prefers math over words.

I am just so distraught. I need anything you guys can give me. Links or books or advice, anything.

TIA


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## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

All I have are the links I've bookmarked from seeing them on CPS threads so many times. Good luck! Sorry this is happening to you!

http://www.fightcpspackets.info/Pare...TheSystem.html

http://www.childwelfare.gov/systemwi...arch/index.cfm

http://www.falseallegation.org/index.shtml

http://www.fightcps.com/


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## UCmamaToMany (May 23, 2005)

Thank you I only had 1 or 2 right now and just want as many as I can get.


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## forthebest (Jun 19, 2006)

No real advice just keep your head and have faith in yourself, yeah how can they assess your dc's reading comprehension from a vindictive phonecall? Breath deeply and don't let em make you doubt homeschooling and your lifestyle, yourself or your dc, your ideals and goals. Thats persecution and monitoring your dc's academic/developmental progress or family 'hygiene/'health' is often used as an excuse to nosy into peoples lives that are often not ordered and mainstream or clean enough lol as 'they' would like us to be. Many, many children who attend schools are being failed badly by the system but no real interest there from cps or education authorities huh?

I feel there can be a strong element of cps and plenty others trying to 'rehabilitate' people into what is more 'acceptable' to them and much of society. Often it is a judging exercise ( judging women really)and not all cps work to this method but many do, and it can be a powertrip for those whereas another may be inclined and/capable to assist families who require it and ask for it.Judging homeschooling is just another tactic, I mean just cos some cps person personally disagrees with the idea of hs, they likely will know zero about the subject as well of course, or care, it's no good reason. Much muck can be spread with the right mouthpiece, many cps imo should quit the day job and 'report' for tabloids, the especially nasty ones. It's revolting they want in homes to see whats going on in your personal space cos that is invasive. parent police and it's controlling, hopefully you will deal with someone who doesn't have a personal vendetta against everything they don't understand, u'know just sheer narrow-mindedness, nothing to do with helping kids stay safe within the family. Much of what is learned in schools imo is irrelevant and stifling, boring for a lot of children but somehow it's the acceptable method.


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## Twice as nice (Feb 5, 2006)

That had to be a pretty scary experience.







Great job on keeping them out and preparing yourself and your family for a possible re-visit!


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## Sheal (Apr 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lotusdebi* 
All I have are the links I've bookmarked from seeing them on CPS threads so many times. Good luck! Sorry this is happening to you!

http://www.fightcpspackets.info/Pare...TheSystem.html

http://www.childwelfare.gov/systemwi...arch/index.cfm

http://www.falseallegation.org/index.shtml

http://www.fightcps.com/

don't forget : canadacourtwatch.com they have links to American sites too.

My best advice document EVERYTHING!!! record ALL interactions with CPS covertly ( video is better with sound but if you can only do sound recording - DO IT!!!). After each interaction write a letter stating all that happened word for word in that meeting\interaction with them - send it registered mail that requires a signature and reply within 10 days. In the eyes of the law silence is acceptance! This also shows that they cannot "fudge" what has been said or done. DON'T SIGN ANYTHING!!! If they try to insist on it state you need to talk to your lawyer first before you sign anything and they cannot remove your children without a court order and cannot enter your home without a warrant either. If they force you to sign something, under your signature write signed under duress.

I'm not saying all CPS workers are bad but I've heard and seen too much to ever completely trust CPS\CAS ever.

Those sites tell it all.

Sheal


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## wildmonkeys (Oct 4, 2004)

I would document everything and try not to be too worried. CPS workers are required to follow-up on a complaint about your family to make sure it isn't true. Most CPS visits are closed as unsubstantiated cases. Somebody called them and said that you are not caring for your children, unfortunately sometimes CPS arrives to find children locked in bedrooms and starving. From what I understand, they are usually THRILLED to find an unsubstantiate complaint and a good home.


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## siennasmom (Mar 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UCmamaToMany* 
The thing that really started this was and is my 2 youngest boys who are 2 and 3(almost 4). They are escape artists and when they see an opportunity they will leave the house and go into the front yard and the 2yo heads into the street. It scares me SH-less and we've taken precautions with triple locking the doors but with older kids they sometimes forget to lock the doors. I try my best but it's not always perfect you know? I've had neighbors complain to me and understandably so, but I'm not neglecting them or not watching them. I usually get them, back into the house ASAP or as soon as I realise they are out there.

Either you're watching them go out the door and run out into the street, or you're not watching them. I don't mean to be harsh, because I know you have a lot on your plate with six kids, but trying your best is not good enough. You need to do whatever you need to do to keep your toddlers from playing in the street. This is one area where there is no room for error.


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## AlwaysByMySide (May 4, 2007)

Since I am currently dealing with CPS right now (our almost 2 year old is in temp. foster care pending the autopsy of our 7 week old daughter that died over two months ago...it's been trying, to say the least), I want to stress the importance of doing everything IN WRITING. Document, document, document. So many things in our case have become he said, she said, and we just didn't know any better in the beginning.

Start by making a document of this visit, and what you remember was said, the exact time, etc. When they return, follow them around with a pen and paper if you can't with a video camera, and document everything that is said. Don't say anything TO them, because your words may get twisted awfully quickly. Don't let the kids say anything to them, because THEIR words may get twisted as well. If something IS said, put it in writing, and as a previous poster mentioned, mail it off requiring a signature for acceptance. And make a note of when you mailed it, and keep a copy, so that if you do not get a signature in return, you will be able to use it in court, if need be.

As an example, from our case, we were treating our 7-week old's diaper rash with Desitin. I even pinpointed WHERE the Desitin was in my bedroom when I was questioned outside of my home after she died. That has now turned into "possible child neglect", because they noted the diaper rash, but managed to leave out the part about US treating it. (And apparently, our child is the only baby to ever have diaper rash, so that means we were neglecting her! Nice, huh?)

I will be praying that CPS backs off from you...trust me when I tell you, if they don't, it is a long, tough road ahead, and even worse when you KNOW you did nothing wrong. I'm living a nightmare every single day, and my social worker even knows we didn't do anything, and wanted to give us our daughter back from the start, but was overruled! There are so many hands in the pot, it is unreal.

Hopefully, all it will take is showing them the three locks on the door, and that should be enough for them to leave you alone. Good luck!!

ETA: I agree that toddlers should not be playing in the street unsupervised. If the neighbors had already mentioned it to you, unfortunately, this is a normal next step. However, I don't agree that they should attack any homeschooling in addition to whatever they think the problem is. It's very hard for me to be objective, since I know how much it hurts to be dealing with CPS at all.

All that being said, even if they do back off, it takes one more report of the kids being in the street, or even someone from CPS seeing them in the street (yes, we feel as though we have been followed more than once) and you could find yourself dealing with CPS via the court system...


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## Pynki (Aug 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siennasmom* 
Either you're watching them go out the door and run out into the street, or you're not watching them. I don't mean to be harsh, because I know you have a lot on your plate with six kids, but trying your best is not good enough. You need to do whatever you need to do to keep your toddlers from playing in the street. This is one area where there is no room for error.

Perhaps she should lock them in closets and let them out to eat and pee. Oh, but that would substantiate child abuse... [email protected]!







.

I agree with the others. DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT!

These threads always make me twitchy. I'm going to go clean now myself!


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## siennasmom (Mar 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pynki* 
Perhaps she should lock them in closets and let them out to eat and pee. Oh, but that would substantiate child abuse... [email protected]!







.

I manage to keep my kids out of the street without locking them in the closet. I only have two and one of them isn't walking yet, so it's a lot easier for me. But still. Toddlers in the street is not okay, period.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siennasmom* 
I manage to keep my kids out of the street without locking them in the closet. I only have two and one of them isn't walking yet, so it's a lot easier for me. But still. Toddlers in the street is not okay, period.

I agree. You could get an "alarm" system that alerts you (with a chime, etc.) when the door opens..........that way, even if the door is accidentally unlocked, you'd still know when they are headed out there.


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## Pynki (Aug 19, 2002)

I don't see that anyone is saying that's a great thing. The OP isn't.

In truth when you have older kids, they aren't as vigilant as the parents are. She has 3 locks on the doors to keep the toddlers in. I have 4 kids. If the 7 or 8 year old go outside and I don't know it, or the come back in and don't get the door shut all the way the 3 year old can and has gotten out with no one out there.

It happens. Having someone with no experience with a larger family give advice when they have a toddler and an infant isn't helpful at all. You might want to watch out for all the Karma which is BOUND to bite you in the backside some day.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pynki* 
I don't see that anyone is saying that's a great thing. The OP isn't.

In truth when you have older kids, they aren't as vigilant as the parents are. She has 3 locks on the doors to keep the toddlers in. I have 4 kids. If the 7 or 8 year old go outside and I don't know it, or the come back in and don't get the door shut all the way the 3 year old can and has gotten out with no one out there.

It happens. Having someone with no experience with a larger family give advice when they have a toddler and an infant isn't helpful at all. You might want to watch out for all the Karma which is BOUND to bite you in the backside some day.









:

I am going to guess that you also don't have any experience with a true escape artist/climber. I have a climber who would stack things to doomsday to reach what he wanted......thank God he wasn't an escape artist as well.

Noone thinks that toddlers in the street are a good idea. I would watch throwing judgments out when you appear to have no experience with a large family and/or an escape artist.

It is amazing how many things I spouted off about when I only had a toddler and an infant. I ate a lot of crow once I had three under the age of four. It's amazing what can happen when you are doing things with the baby and the others are not right next to you the whole time. We joked a lot with Zachary that he got more milkshakes than anything else from me chasing after the others.

I know my brother has five under the age of six and they have two escape artists. They work as a team to break through security measures that are in place. It is amazing what a four year old and three year old can do when they set their minds to it. Thankfully, he lives out in the boonies and the kids typically are just working to go play on the playset.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siennasmom* 
Either you're watching them go out the door and run out into the street, or you're not watching them. I don't mean to be harsh, because I know you have a lot on your plate with six kids, but trying your best is not good enough. You need to do whatever you need to do to keep your toddlers from playing in the street. This is one area where there is no room for error.

What you say here is laughable because it feels like you have no idea how quickly small children can escape. When I read it, I kringed at the bad karma aspect of it as well as the naive judgement that is sure to hurt the OP.

As a mom of 3...all of them walking, and one who has no idea why he, at 2 can't have the same freedoms as my 5 and 7yo, I can say that my youngest has slipped out before. It happens.

I hope that you get past this with CPS. You did the right thing, now go get a video recorder and a stand.

((hugs)) Lisa


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Also, isn't it in Michigan where a mother lost her son because he was fat! No other reason, plus they took her newborn, white female child the day it was born and terminated her rights to it as well? Hmmm, I'd watch out for Michigan Social workers and wouldn't be helpful to them at all.

Lisa


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## Rigama (Oct 18, 2005)

Wow, that really stinks!

Maybe you could cross post your post in the Homeschooing board...I'm sure they would have lots of links and tips specifically pertaining to the homeschooling/uneducated aspect of this.


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## Pynki (Aug 19, 2002)

isn't Michigan where Kindhearthabibe is ? She had all her children taken and one of them killed. I wouldn't trust MI CPS as far as I could through them.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Well, as for the kids getting out, you do need to fix that. One inexpensive way is to get those door chimes that let you know the little monkeys have opened a door. Then help train everybody in the house that if they hear the alarms they should go look immediately. It's hard at first, but within a few weeks, it comes natural.

I know this could be extremely expensive, but can you fence in your yard? I bet a ten foot privacy fence around your entire house sounds great right now, but maybe just a four foot fence???? I honestly have no idea what something like that would cost.

That's all I can think of to keep the kids inside. Except, maybe a tether... hooked to the back of their pants, and when they get too close to the door, they are yanked back by a bunjee.








______________

I wonder why someone would call CPS? It sounds like the homeschooling is really bothering someone. Why would other people become so concerned with your child's education? I just think it is weird that neighbors would make an assumption like that, and potentially put your whole family at risk.

I wish people would think very hard before doing these things.


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## siennasmom (Mar 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisa49* 
What you say here is laughable because it feels like you have no idea how quickly small children can escape. When I read it, I kringed at the bad karma aspect of it as well as the naive judgement that is sure to hurt the OP.

Where was the naive judgment? That toddlers shouldn't play in the street? That it's possible to keep toddlers from *repeatedly* escaping into the street without locking them in a closet? If that's naive, boy howdy. I don't know what to say.

As far as my post being cringe-worthy, you know what makes me cringe? The idea of toddlers repeatedly getting out of the house and running out into the street.


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## UCmamaToMany (May 23, 2005)

oops double post


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## UCmamaToMany (May 23, 2005)

Ok 3 door lock, I do have door alarms on the inside doors, and yesterday when they "escaped" it wasn't through a door at all per se.

They did go out into the back yard which is fenced in. It has 2 gates which we've securely locked as well.

So how did they get out? We discovered that they've figured out how to climb over the fence!

So what now? a car battery hooked up to the fence? Or perhaps barbed wire mounted on the top of the fence? Both are kind of dangerous.

We have locks on doors, baby gates, cabinet locks, fridge and freezer locks, and if I could I'd install an invisible fence and attach a monitor to the boys so they never run out into the street again I would but it's kind of unethical don't you think?

This has happened 3 times now. Apparently the 3rd time was enough for someone to call on us even though each time it happened we stepped up our security measures.

I'm sorry you don't hink my "best" is good enough, but I do what I can with what I have at the time. How in the h#ll am I supposed to know my boys would climb over the fenced in yard? They are only 2 and 3 and I had never seen them do it before until yesterday after the fact!

After the second time it happened I went out that same day and got more locks and tearfully cried to my husband about this CPS scenario happening.

But I guess I am just a bad mom compared to some. I love them, feed them, clothe them, house them, educate them, bathe them, monitor their health, and then when they get themselves into dangerous situations I try to rectify the problem ASAP NOT knowing the future of whether or not they'll be able to adapt to our security step ups and break out again. But like you said my best just isn't good enough I guess. Maybe they should take them away. I'm pretty sure the foster car house won't have doors or fences my boys won't figure out and escape through.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siennasmom* 
Where was the naive judgment? That toddlers shouldn't play in the street? That it's possible to keep toddlers from *repeatedly* escaping into the street without locking them in a closet? If that's naive, boy howdy. I don't know what to say.

As far as my post being cringe-worthy, you know what makes me cringe? The idea of toddlers repeatedly getting out of the house and running out into the street.

She does have a point. If the kids have gotten out the same way more than twice, there is a problem. Surely there is also a solution.

But, if neighbors are having to repeatedly bring pre-schoolers and toddlers back to the safety of their yard or home, there IS something going wrong here.

The OP didn't say how many times the kids have escaped though. Maybe it was only three or so times. But, maybe it was seven or ten... that means that the kids aren't being supervised properly.

In Arizona, it only takes once, to get in the backyard, and your kids are dead within five minutes after they fall into the pool. Other people judge those parents for not securing the doors. Or for not having a locked pool fence. Or for leaving the pool fence open.

But, nothing has happened to these kids, so we can say, "Oh that's O.K". But, if this same two year old wanders three blocks away, we would say "You should have known they were out of the house"

Kids DO get outside. It happens, no matter how diligent we are. Just Friday night, I found a two year old riding a trike down the middle of the road singing "Life is a highway" at 10:30 at night. I had never seen him before. So, I stopped him, and another neighbor and I tried to figure out where he came from. Turned out, he was visiting his cousins for the weekend, and wanted another turn on the trike, so he snuck into the garage, climbed on the little tykes car, opened the garage door, and stole a bike. (pretty clever)

It just happens.

I am not bashing the OP, but it is time for her to get some kind of alarm on her doors.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UCmamaToMany* 
This has happened 3 times now. Apparently the 3rd time was enough for someone to call on us even though each time it happened we stepped up our security measures.

.

Now, to me, three times isn't really all that bad. I wouldn't have called CPS for three times.

The battery on the fence sounds good!!







:

If they are finding new ways out, I don't know what to tell you.

My only advice then, is to take them out A LOT. Seriously, take them out, and go wherever they want (within reason) so they don't need to see what they are missing. Go to the park every day. Take all the kids, and have the biggest kids bring school work if they need to keep working.

Get some pools and water things in the backyard. I buy a blue tarp, and some painters plastic then run the hose on that, and the kids use it as a big slip n slide. Have them play in the water after the older kids have finished their lessons.

Basically, wear them out.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siennasmom* 
Where was the naive judgment? That toddlers shouldn't play in the street? That it's possible to keep toddlers from *repeatedly* escaping into the street without locking them in a closet? If that's naive, boy howdy. I don't know what to say.

As far as my post being cringe-worthy, you know what makes me cringe? The idea of toddlers repeatedly getting out of the house and running out into the street.

The judgment from someone who isn't experienced with multiple children was cringe-worthy.

The judgment that all you have to do is watch them at all times, which btw is impossible once you have multiple kids, is cringe-worthy.

The judgment that you can just do xyz to make certain that an escape artist/climber can just be contained easily is cringe-worthy.

The idea that you can just tell an older child to close/lock the door and they will comply every time is naive. You may have one in the bunch that never forgets (my nine year is like this), but then you will have others that remember sometimes (my 10 year old), and then there are the ones that rarely remember (my 12 year old).

What do you think would be a good idea for helping the other kids remember to close/lock the door?


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
I am not bashing the OP, but it is time for her to get some kind of alarm on her doors.

I do agree an alarm system of sorts is a good idea. I wonder how to help the older kids remember better to shut/lock the doors.


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## siennasmom (Mar 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
The judgment from someone who isn't experienced with multiple children was cringe-worthy.

The judgment that all you have to do is watch them at all times, which btw is impossible once you have multiple kids, is cringe-worthy.

The judgment that you can just do xyz to make certain that an escape artist/climber can just be contained easily is cringe-worthy.

The idea that you can just tell an older child to close/lock the door and they will comply every time is naive. You may have one in the bunch that never forgets (my nine year is like this), but then you will have others that remember sometimes (my 10 year old), and then there are the ones that rarely remember (my 12 year old).

I am about to lay a cringe-worthy judgment out there right now (this is NOT about the OP but just a general cringe-worthy judgment): if you have more children than you can keep safe, you have more children than you can handle. You (again, general you) need to either get more help or change how you're doing things.

If you think that's a cringe-worthy judgment you are more than welcome to cringe away. I'm sticking with it. I'm not too far away from where Tristan White and Avery Stately died (they were the 2- and 4-year-old brothers who went out to play and never came back, because they drowned in a lake about a half mile from their house). I am also in the same state as a little girl named Leanna Warner was when she wandered away from home and never came back, and four years later she still hasn't been found. Very bad things can happen to kids, and it makes me sick to think about them.

I am not one of those people who believes that everything will be okay and the kids will be fine. Some things don't turn out okay, and sometimes the kids end up hurt or worse.


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## SamuraiMom (Nov 7, 2006)

Six months ago my two youngest left the house hand in hand to cross the street to where my eldest dd was visiting a friend. I was frantic, & thats an understatement. All that I could imagine was that someone drove by and took them. But they were across the street at the friends house. I couldn't breath right for at least three hourse, though they were pretty proud of them selves. After that we made it imposssible for them to leave the hours without an adult. However this morning my ds left the house to fetch a shirt from the car. I thought he had meant my car in the driveway, only he actually meant his dads car which was in front of the house and across the street. I went out yelling for him and a lady answered, she had driven by and saw him standing on the street! I felt awful, thinking about what "could have happend", anyway my point is that with small children, one must be repetative, with everything. the OP didn't say that her kids ran out three times, three days in a row, or weeks or months apart. I agree that toddlers do not belong in the road, but who would disagree with that? WHO? However, I think that the OP was asking, that is, the clear point of her thread, was for help with CPS, not a repremand on her parenting skills, she's already got CPS on her back.

I am







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again....and we







:


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
The idea that you can just tell an older child to close/lock the door and they will comply every time is naive. You may have one in the bunch that never forgets (my nine year is like this), but then you will have others that remember sometimes (my 10 year old), and then there are the ones that rarely remember (my 12 year old).

Or, you can have one who never forgets...ever...except once. DS1 left the patio gate unlocked when he went out with a buddy - ONCE. That happened to be the evening that dd decided to go after him. Fortunately, we checked on her quickly enough that she hadn't gone _that_ far when we realized she was missing...but it still took almost 10 minutes to find her.

My nephew was the master climber/escape artist. I don't know how my sister coped with it at all. She had CPS called on her by someone who saw him get out _once_. He had woken up from a nap, shoved a chair to the door, unlocked it and left...straight down the apartment stairs and into the street. My sister was running water for dishes, and didn't hear a thing. The first she knew was when a woman yelled in her door, after chasing my nephew back into the building. This all took no more than a few minutes, as my sister hadn't finished running the water yet. Her son was sound asleep in his room when she went into the kitchen. He was 2. She had to take down the baby gate in his room, because he kept climbing it and knocking it over and hurting himself.

Some kids really are nearly impossible to contain.


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## siennasmom (Mar 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SamuraiMom* 
However, I think that the OP was asking, that is, the clear point of her thread, was for help with CPS, not a repremand on her parenting skills, she's already got CPS on her back.

I was specifically responding to her statement she tried but wasn't "perfect". It sounded awfully cavalier to me. Since then she has added more detail and it's clear that she's taken a lot of measures, but if they're not working, they need to try something else. That's all I'm saying.


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

If you take all those measures, as in locks and alarms and so on and so forth, good. CPS will see that. Still doesn't absolve you from having to be more vigilant so they don't get out. It did sound cavalier to me. As others have said, it only takes ONE time for something deadly to happen. A drowning, a car accident, a kid wandering off into harm's way. Doesn't take having five kids to understand that watching your kids all the time and ensuring their safety isn't easy, but regardless of how many kids we all have, it's our job as parent to ensure our children's safety, and if you can't you need to change things to make sure that it does happen.


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## studentmama (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siennasmom* 
I manage to keep my kids out of the street without locking them in the closet. I only have two and one of them isn't walking yet, so it's a lot easier for me. But still. Toddlers in the street is not okay, period.

I never get into conversations like this, but I could have wrote what you did oh so easily 2.5 years ago. And that is with having one child and watching countless others, many rtimes at a time. But after the birth of ds2, I can assure you I can totaly relate to the op. You really just have no idea how time consuming a child like that can be, shall she not ever go to the bathroom? I mean seriously, to expect that you can watch any child non-stop without ever looking away 24 hours a day as long as they are your responsibility is absolutely ludacris.

And if you think it is possible it's because you don't have one like that. And no kidding toddlers in the street is not ok, I am quite sure the op knows this and takes every step to prevent it from happening, but when you put older kids in the mix who do forget things, no matter how many times it has been drilled in their heads, they forget and kids sometimes get out. I know mine has, and yes it scared the panties off me and I had made every effort to make sure the door was child proof, but there is a funny thing about these kids, they are absolutely ingenius, no matter how many deadbolts and chains and no matter how high you put them, they figure it out.

I can't say it enough, until you have had a busybody escape artist like these kids, you really have no idea. I know I didn't. I really have yet to meet a parent, good or bad, who thought it was ok for a toddler to be in the street, I think that is so super judgemental.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal* 
If you take all those measures, as in locks and alarms and so on and so forth, good. CPS will see that. Still doesn't absolve you from having to be more vigilant so they don't get out. It did sound cavalier to me. As others have said, it only takes ONE time for something deadly to happen. A drowning, a car accident, a kid wandering off into harm's way. Doesn't take having five kids to understand that watching your kids all the time and ensuring their safety isn't easy, but regardless of how many kids we all have, it's our job as parent to ensure our children's safety, and if you can't you need to change things to make sure that it does happen.

She _is_ changing things. She said quite clearly that they add more measures every time this happens. I doubt I would have anticipated my kids climbing over the fence if they'd never done it before, either. I had no idea that precognition was now part of the job requirement for parenting!

Why are people coming down on the OP? She wasn't being cavalier...she was simply stating that she's not being negligent and doesn't think it's okay that her kids are getting out of the house. Is she supposed to completely abase herself before she gets support?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *studentmama* 
...there is a funny thing about these kids, they are absolutely ingenius, no matter how many deadbolts and chains and no matter how high you put them, they figure it out.

I'll never forget ds1 when he was about 18 months old. We were camping. We knew he could easily wake up before us and slip out of the tent, so we put a small padlock on the tent zipper. I woke up the second or third morning, to find ds1 down at the zipper, _with_ the key to the padlock (it had been in the tent pocket by my head), trying to get the lock open. He was using the key upside-down, but he had the idea. I suspect he could have opened it, given enough time. I don't even consider him to be a real escape artist - not even close to being in my nephew's league, for example.


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## studentmama (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siennasmom* 
I was specifically responding to her statement she tried but wasn't "perfect". It sounded awfully cavalier to me. Since then she has added more detail and it's clear that she's taken a lot of measures, but if they're not working, they need to try something else. That's all I'm saying.

I know I have said it, not because I was trying to be oh so cavalier, but because we as mamas spend so much time feeling guilty about stuff that happens to our kids even if it is totally out of our control.

Again, not to hammer home this point, but since the judgements keep flying,
you are constantly trying to devise new measures without being cruel to the child, because they are really just a very spirited child, to keep them safe. Sure, all it takes is once for something terrible to happen(again with the flying guilt trips, sheesh), but you know what, you can be the most safe driver taking the most safety precautions possible and something still can happen. Life is risky, you do the best you can to keep your kids and yourself safe, but stuff can still happen. I am pretty sure the op wasn't coming here for a guilt trip, I am quite confident we as mamas are very good of doing that to ourselves without any extra help.


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## Belleweather (Nov 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siennasmom* 
I am about to lay a cringe-worthy judgment out there right now (this is NOT about the OP but just a general cringe-worthy judgment): if you have more children than you can keep safe, you have more children than you can handle.

So then, what are you supposed to do, return a few? Do you get a full refund with a receipt or just store credit?

I'm sorry to be flip, but this is so exceedingly unhelpful it amazes me. Yeah, it's nice to say "get more help or change how you're doing things", but it seems to me that unless you're willing to BE more help or have some actual and concrete ideas about what to try next, you're just being nasty to be nasty.


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## guestmama9908 (Jan 23, 2007)

I am the mother of a runner as well. (Thankfully mine hasn't figured out how to open doors yet. Oh but I am sure my day is coming







: )

When we are out in public I have to keep a constant eye on him. He will take off like a shot and be out of sight in no time. I try my hardest to keep up with him but he still manages to get away from me from time to time.

I will pass no judgement on a woman who manages to keep up with 5 children, two of whom are runners as well. She is a better woman than many I am sure.

TO the OP: I have no advice to give. (((HUGS))))


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## townmouse (May 3, 2004)

As a homeschooling mother of 4 boys who are close in age, I am *not* feeling judgmental of the OP. I do have a few tips (some of these would make Alfie Kohn angry, some might get me thrown off MDC, but the OP is in a crisis so I'll help if I can and let the chips fall where they may).

A child under the age of 4 *can* be kept in sight at all times. If you go upstairs, he goes. If you go to the garage, he goes. If you are loading the washer or hanging laundry or going to the bathroom or taking a shower or cooking supper: so is he. Have something for them to do in each room or area, but always keep them with you. I've done it, you can do it.

In the yard, if he doesn't stay near you, then explain to him, "You didn't stay with mama. Outside time is over, let's go in the house." Next time before you go in the yard, remind him. "We may not go by the street. Stay on this side of the tree (whatever) with mama or we will have to go right back in the house." and then enforce it.

As he gets older, lengthen the apron strings. Give him chances to prove he can stay where you left him without escaping. Use rewards, charts, stickers or whatever to get it into his little head.

Concerning the older kids: any kid who is too young to understand that he's jeopardizing his baby siblings life when he doesn't lock the door is too young to be allowed to go in and out without mama. You and/or your oldest and most responsible child will have to be the gatekeepers. You want out? Ask mama, mama will lock the door.

Use alot of language around the whole family to reinforce rules. When you go to the bathroom (taking the toddlers with you) remind everyone in the house, "I'll be in the bathroom for a minute. Don't go out until I get back, and don't open the door for anyone." Say that every single time, and the toddlers will soak up the rules, too.

This all sounds awful but it is not too harsh or extreme when you have babies in the street and neighbors calling CPS. And you can do it all lovingly, with a gentle voice. I did it, for several years. The boys are older, they don't even remember those days, and all they do remember is our fun, games, playtimes, togetherness, outings, etc.

I did not punish them for leaving doors unlocked or escaping. I took it as a warning to myself that I wasn't watching closely enough if that could happen. So I'd return to the previous level of supervision, and try again to expand his freedom in a month or two.

OP, I wish you the best. If I were your neighbor and I saw your babies in the street, I wouldn't call CPS. I'd run out and get them and bring them home. And invite you and your kids over to play. Large families need support, and it can be hard to find in some neighborhoods!


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## siennasmom (Mar 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Belleweather* 
So then, what are you supposed to do, return a few? Do you get a full refund with a receipt or just store credit?

I'm sorry to be flip, but this is so exceedingly unhelpful it amazes me. Yeah, it's nice to say "get more help or change how you're doing things", but it seems to me that unless you're willing to BE more help or have some actual and concrete ideas about what to try next, you're just being nasty to be nasty.

Pretty sure I said that you need to get help or change what you're doing. I'm not sure what's so "nasty" about that. If that's nasty, then I guess it's nasty to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about because I don't have a bunch of kids and/or one who tries to get out all the time.


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## studentmama (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
If they are finding new ways out, I don't know what to tell you.

See, that's the deal with these kinds of kids, you are constantly thinking of new strategies and they are constantly thinking of new ways to get around them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
My only advice then, is to take them out A LOT. Seriously, take them out, and go wherever they want (within reason) so they don't need to see what they are missing. Go to the park every day. Take all the kids, and have the biggest kids bring school work if they need to keep working.

Get some pools and water things in the backyard. I buy a blue tarp, and some painters plastic then run the hose on that, and the kids use it as a big slip n slide. Have them play in the water after the older kids have finished their lessons.

Basically, wear them out.

Good luck with that. I think this is funny, like it's not something people with kids this active aren't already doing. It is a physical impossibility to not keep them super active, it is your only saving grace, and yet they still have energy to spare. My son literally could spend 24 hours a day outside, but you know, when it gets 20 below and he's got frostbite, it's time to bring them in, and he will still have mountains of energy back inside, after hours of running through two feet of snow.

I just really can't say it enough, unless you have had a kid like this, you cannot even phathom how one small precious baby can get into so much trouble and have so much energy.

I think honestly we need to move away from judging this mama and try to find a way that we can tap into these kids' energy, who knows, maybe it will solve the worlds energy crisis.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

I "only" have four, but here's what works for us:

The front door is kept locked, as well as the front scren door. Additionally, there's a hook and eye waaaay up on the screen door. No one goes out the front door without me knowing about it.

The back door opens into a fenced yard. The gates are padlocked. So, if our three goes out there with his brother and sister (for some reason, he doesn't like going out alone), he's contained. Of course, this doesn't help the fence-climbing issue. I'm in luck because if Nicholas was doing something he wasn't supposed to, the other two would rat on him so fast, it would make his head spin.

Could you elicit the help of your older children and make it clear that if they leave the back door unlocked and the little ones are out with them, they need to help keep an eye on them and let you know if they're doing something not safe? Because from what you're describing, they should only be able to get out if someone older is out as well.

I know in our house we put a strong emphasis on the fact the it's _everyone's_ job to keep our house a safe and loving place. If my older ones were leaving gates and doors unlocked, I would probably start enacting some natural consequences. And if my toddler was such a handfull that it would be too difficult or unreasonable for the older ones to keep an eye on him, I would carve out specific time for outside time everyday when I could go out and supervise. I'm actually going to need to do this anyway if I want my three-year-old to have sprinkler/wading pool time, because obviously it would be unreasonable to expect my eight- and six-year-olds to supervise that.

It does sound like you recognize that it's a real safety issue. Definitely document what you've done so far and maybe also brainstorm an action plan. Would a climber help your little climbers?

BTW, while I was typing this, Nicholas, my three, did try to escape.







Luckily, the door was locked. I may add wind chimes as well, just as a safety precaution.

Last thing, you won't really know what the complaints are til they formally give you something, right? Here's hoping it ends up being something relatively easy.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

to the OP.

Of course toddlers in the street is a bad thing, I think everyone here gets that.
I can look at my own life and find things that need improvement, as I am sure that everyone else who has posted on this thread does.

I am just lucky that Owen was never an escape artist. I have a friend whos son is a little Houdini. He could get out of just about anything. It was easier for her to figure out a solution because he was the oldest child. I can't imagine if I had older kids and 2 younger escape artists!!
It sounds like she is doing pretty good!

But I think that this thread shows us that people have very little sympathy for parents when their little ones do get outside-hence the fact that the OP had CPS show up at her door after a couple incidents.
Would it have been that hard for the neighbor to just come and talk to the OP and see if there was a real reason to call CPS??!!


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## siennasmom (Mar 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
But I think that this thread shows us that people have very little sympathy for parents when their little ones do get outside-hence the fact that the OP had CPS show up at her door after a couple incidents.
Would it have been that hard for the neighbor to just come and talk to the OP and see if there was a real reason to call CPS??!!

She said that the neighbors have talked to her.


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## gargirl (Dec 30, 2006)

Yikes!

First of all; *HUGS*

Worst nightmare, for sure! My oldest and youngest were/are escapists/explorers. We took every measure and then some! And still, you turn away and they are gone... or into something you never thought they would try to get into. *sigh* It is never ending stress with that type of child. I ran on pure adrenalin and no sleep with my oldest.

I am hoping a praying that CPS backs off and leaves you alone. I can barely imagine... You poor dear.

As for keeping the little ones IN... well, 3 locks is a good step, with the older kids it isn't enough though because they forget. Is there a way to block the door with a baby gate? Or maybe a baby coral of some type? The door alarm idea sounds good, jarring but good. I wish I had better ideas to offer. Knw that lots of us are thinking of you.


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## studentmama (Jan 30, 2004)

annettemarie, windchimes are such a fantastic idea! I will be getting some today. We also double lock the front door and a chain, double look the porch door and are constantly vigilent, and he is really quite honestly the most amazing child I have ever seen, so I can really relate to the op.

Here is an illustration that might help those who are having a tough time understanding how fast these kids are. My guy who was so sweetly looking at me, no more than two feet in front of me, while I blinked my eyes, managed to run to the fridge(which we also have locked, but he has subsequently figured it out) cracked 6 eggs on the floor ran back to me and when I opened my eyes(again, remember, I was just blinking, not playing hide and seek our anything) he says, with his raw egg hands raised in the air, Look Mama. In his mind he was cooking, in my mind I wondered how I had given birth to Houdini.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Houdini* 
The judgment from someone who isn't experienced with multiple children was cringe-worthy.

The judgment that all you have to do is watch them at all times, which btw is impossible once you have multiple kids, is cringe-worthy.

The judgment that you can just do xyz to make certain that an escape artist/climber can just be contained easily is cringe-worthy.

The idea that you can just tell an older child to close/lock the door and they will comply every time is naive. You may have one in the bunch that never forgets (my nine year is like this), but then you will have others that remember sometimes (my 10 year old), and then there are the ones that rarely remember (my 12 year old).

What do you think would be a good idea for helping the other kids remember to close/lock the door?

If someone posted that their toddler managed to escape to the street from their daycare three times, everyone would be telling the poster that was unacceptable and that she should change her daycare provider.


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## offwing (Aug 17, 2006)

I was just thinking that if a mama posted how a little one got away from Grandma while she was babysitting and went into the street three times, there would be multiple posters suggesting that grammy never be allowed to babysit again.

As for what to do about it, it's seems clear that you need some kind of door inside or gate outside that locks or latches when it swings shut. Anyone old enough to go in and out by themselves should have a key or be tall enough to unlatch it.

Windows need to be secured all the time or only open from the top above the heads of tots. I heard on the news this AM about a local 3 year old who went out a third floor screen window. She's in critical care.


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## KMK_Mama (Jan 29, 2006)

Maybe look into security doors. I usually go out the garage so the front door is always locked and cannot be open without a key. We also have one on the back sliding doors that is also always locked.








I'm sorry, this sucks.


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## Thalia the Muse (Jun 22, 2006)

Quote:

any kid who is too young to understand that he's jeopardizing his baby siblings life when he doesn't lock the door is too young to be allowed to go in and out without mama. You and/or your oldest and most responsible child will have to be the gatekeepers. You want out? Ask mama, mama will lock the door.

Use alot of language around the whole family to reinforce rules. When you go to the bathroom (taking the toddlers with you) remind everyone in the house, "I'll be in the bathroom for a minute. Don't go out until I get back, and don't open the door for anyone." Say that every single time, and the toddlers will soak up the rules, too.
My child is not an escape artist, but this seems like EXCELLENT advice to me.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

The judgment in this thread really stinks.

To the OP: It sounds like you know the real safety issue here and I'm sure you'll get a lot of advice here if you weed through the rest of the posts.









The CPS thing certainly sucks. Good for you for knowing your rights!!







I hope it is resolved quickly and as painlessly as possible.


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## momazon4 (Dec 19, 2006)

At least 2 of my 3 ( and probably the 3rd, too, I'm not remembering) escaped at least once. It happens, it's life. Now of course, we try to minamize the chances but as long as there are humans involved there will be an error factor, too.

Hugs, mama. You are in my thoughts.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Just wanted to chime in (before I get up and go looking for where my 11 month old just crawled off to) - I used to babysit for a very nice family of 5 kids. One day the mom drove to get me and the dad was watching the kids. We are driving down their street and mom stops with a screech - there's the 2 year old sitting in the middle of the road. We scoop her up and procede to find the rest of the family - dad was helping the older kids, and no one noticed the baby had got out the front door. It *does* happen to nice people. I think we could cut people a little slack.

How about jingle bells on the doors - you know like you see in some stores? A dog with a loud bark in the yard might be really good - I know our dog would go crazy if someone tried to climb a fence. I just know that dog is going to save somebody's butt one of these days... well hello, baby's back!


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## Teensy (Feb 22, 2002)

Quote:

always locked and cannot be open without a key
I tried to get a locksmith to put these on our house and was told - duh! I can't believe it didn't occur to me - that it was a major fire safety hazard and he couldn't do it.

I think the OP can find some good suggestions around these boards, but man some of these posts are really making me





















: I'm picturing some of those moms having a few more kids (whoops! it's twins!) and having a kick from karma!


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## myjulybabes (Jun 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *townmouse* 
A child under the age of 4 *can* be kept in sight at all times. If you go upstairs, he goes. If you go to the garage, he goes. If you are loading the washer or hanging laundry or going to the bathroom or taking a shower or cooking supper: so is he. Have something for them to do in each room or area, but always keep them with you. I've done it, you can do it.

In the yard, if he doesn't stay near you, then explain to him, "You didn't stay with mama. Outside time is over, let's go in the house." Next time before you go in the yard, remind him. "We may not go by the street. Stay on this side of the tree (whatever) with mama or we will have to go right back in the house." and then enforce it.

As he gets older, lengthen the apron strings. Give him chances to prove he can stay where you left him without escaping. Use rewards, charts, stickers or whatever to get it into his little head.

Concerning the older kids: any kid who is too young to understand that he's jeopardizing his baby siblings life when he doesn't lock the door is too young to be allowed to go in and out without mama. You and/or your oldest and most responsible child will have to be the gatekeepers. You want out? Ask mama, mama will lock the door.

Use alot of language around the whole family to reinforce rules. When you go to the bathroom (taking the toddlers with you) remind everyone in the house, "I'll be in the bathroom for a minute. Don't go out until I get back, and don't open the door for anyone." Say that every single time, and the toddlers will soak up the rules, too.

This all sounds awful but it is not too harsh or extreme when you have babies in the street and neighbors calling CPS. And you can do it all lovingly, with a gentle voice. I did it, for several years. The boys are older, they don't even remember those days, and all they do remember is our fun, games, playtimes, togetherness, outings, etc.

I did not punish them for leaving doors unlocked or escaping. I took it as a warning to myself that I wasn't watching closely enough if that could happen. So I'd return to the previous level of supervision, and try again to expand his freedom in a month or two.


I like these ideas a lot. I have an escape artist too. It's a huge issue. There's only been one time he got out where I wasn't right on his tail, but it scared the crap out of me.

Our best solution has been a door chime. It's not like an alarm that keeps going and going and going and aggravates everyone so much that they're tempted to turn it off, more like something you'd hear in a small store-- chimes loudly twice, then quits, any time the door is opened. Jingle bells, windchimes, anything like that would work too....something to make you look up every time the door opens. The thing is, whatever you chose to alert you, it has to be loud enough to be heard anywhere in the house, and has to be used consistently. The time ds got out, it was through a door that didn't have anything on it. We're fixing that ASAP.







When he figures out a.) how to reach the box and 2.) the code to turn it on and off, we may have problems, but so far, that hasn't happened and he's almost 6 and fairly tech savvy. If you'd like a link to the model we use (I'm pretty sure we got it at Target), just let me know and I'll dig something up.

The fence climbing, boy, I don't even know what to tell you. Is it at all in the budget to build a taller or harder to climb fence? I know that's pretty extreme, but 2 and 3 yr olds escaping unnoticed is something so scary and dangerous, I'd be willing to take extreme measures if it were at all within my abilities to do so.








to you. I hope this all blows over quickly and uneventfully.


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## addysmommy (Jun 10, 2007)

WOW! I know the OP was looking for support and advice...not a hell storm! Geez! Anyways, good luck to you on finding a solution. I think the older ones shouldn't be allowed to leave without momma's permission is a great idea and if they forget to ask, they don't get to go out the next day or something...this would solve a lot I think....might drive you nuts on the days they have to stay inside all day but I think they would get the point pretty quickly if they love playing outside. I only have one so far but she's already an escape artist! I will be taking all this down mentally for the next for years! Good luck!


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## KMK_Mama (Jan 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Teensy* 
I tried to get a locksmith to put these on our house and was told - duh! I can't believe it didn't occur to me - that it was a major fire safety hazard and he couldn't do it.

I think the OP can find some good suggestions around these boards, but man some of these posts are really making me





















: I'm picturing some of those moms having a few more kids (whoops! it's twins!) and having a kick from karma!

I've worried about this too, but there is always the garage that we can get out of and we also have a key hanging up right next to the door on the wall that the kids cannot reach. So, I'm not worried about fires. I know they do happen, but not very often and we have taken the proper precautions to ensure our safety. They sell these doors right at Home Depot so I'm sure I'm not the only one who was "stupid" enough to get one.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *offwing* 
Windows need to be secured all the time or only open from the top *above the heads of tots*. I heard on the news this AM about a local 3 year old who went out a third floor screen window. She's in critical care.

I find this amusing. The only way to keep a lock above my nephew's head was to get rid of any furniture that he had a prayer of moving around...including all chairs. A lock that he couldn't reach was a game - that's all it ever was.

Am I saying my sister should have just given up? Not at all...but I certainly understood, from observation, that her best efforts weren't ever going to be enough. She once walked into the kitchen to get him something from the fridge. He was right behind her. She'd just finished chopping whatever it was when there was a knock on her door...it was a city work crew, asking if a small boy in a diaper and a boot lived here and whether he was inside. While she was cutting something, he'd gone back into the living room, climbed onto the window frame, opened the latch, put on one boot (







) and bolted outside. When the city crew came to get him, he ran back in. She was chopping a single piece of fruit! I've never had a true escape artist, and I hope I never do.


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## Novella (Nov 8, 2006)

Dear UCmama2many:

I wish you all the best. You've received a lot of impractical and judgemental responses here. I agree with several of the refutes to those.

I can totally empathize. My now-2.5-year-old started escaping double-locked doors last fall. Winter appeared to have cured him, but you know what people say about "spring fever". . .

We have had two different neighbours each return him home once in the past year. We've also had a couple of times where he escaped (older sister forgot to secure door, etc) and we found him next-door at our neighbour/friend's (good thing she has a really appealing backyard full of toys)!

Since you've continually escalated your security system, I thought the most helpful advice you got was from the mama who kindly insisted that her 4-year-old was never out of her sight. There are all kinds of reasons why this would *not* work for _me_, including a modicum of attempting to preserve my own sanity.







(and in spite of the wink, I'm not simply kidding on that point). But I appreciate her detailed and thoughtful response. Perhaps her style will work for you.

On the other hand, I took a different approach. Since our efforts to reinforce the doors are only somewhat successful (we are now securing the locked doors with knives in the top trim), I concentrated on what sort of training/parenting I could do for the inevitable escape - even if it only ever happens one more time!

I have put a lot of effort into teaching our little guy about crossing the street safely. He is now so hyper-conscious that he is far better at crossing the street than his 4.5-year-old sister and is downright scared of vehicle sounds! (ie. He hears a truck accelerate from 2 blocks away and he's a scrambling bunny right back onto our front porch, even though he was standing in our lawn, 25 feet from the curb when he heard the truck).

We have also done a lot around training him to stay in our frontyard and sideyard if he is for some reason outside the house and not in our fenced-in backyard. I know a 2.5-year-old isn't compromising in any sort of rational way, but this seems to be working. He feels like a big boy to be outside (not within the fence) with his older sisters, yet he makes ZERO effort to leave their company and head for the edge of the lawn, the back alley, the street, etc.

I just think it's prudent to prepare for the "what if" rather than directing every bit of energy into trying to ensure "what if" could never, ever happen.

There was also a comment that it's a natural next step for a neighbour who has brought a child home once to call CPS if child escapes a second time. Sorry, I think there's lots of room between "0 and 60"! Being a good neighbour usually implies helpfulness and friendliness. I'd certainly be willing to steer a neighbour child home _several_ times. Being neighbourly may also include offering to take a little houdini out on an errand to the corner store so he gets that "escape-itch" scratched. It might also include asking the busy mom if she needs help with anything in the house: Prior to adopting the knife-in-trim "security system" we had bought a hook to add to the door. But our house is crazy: kids 6, 4, 2, and baby twins, so we just weren't getting it installed. Yeah, I know, it's a 5-minute job.

My last piece of advice to you, UCmama2many, is to consider moving. I know people often throw that one out as a smart-aleck response to a problem. But yeesh! Who needs neighbours like that!? Moving is an extreme answer, but sometimes a necessary one. You may well be better served (in all kinds of ways) by moving to a less-populated area, or a community with a different mindset.

Good luck.


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## Houdini (Jul 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
If someone posted that their toddler managed to escape to the street from their daycare three times, everyone would be telling the poster that was unacceptable and that she should change her daycare provider.

Really couldn't answer that one as I have no idea how daycares are set up, but I would say most have security measures in place. We have gone to Pre-K's that had younger ones and there is a locking door that requires a key card to get in and out.

As far as home daycare....again no idea how they are set up, but I would guess they have security measures in place as well.

This mama is setting extra measures in place which is what she can do as she tries to teach the kids the safety aspects.

The poster asked what was judgmental about her post and I answered with what my opinion was.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ManitobaMom* 
Since our efforts to reinforce the doors are only somewhat successful (we are now securing the locked doors with knives in the top trim),

Hey - my sister did that, too.

Quote:

There was also a comment that it's a natural next step for a neighbour who has brought a child home once to call CPS if child escapes a second time. Sorry, I think there's lots of room between "0 and 60"! Being a good neighbour usually implies helpfulness and friendliness. I'd certainly be willing to steer a neighbour child home _several_ times.
....

My last piece of advice to you, UCmama2many, is to consider moving. I know people often throw that one out as a smart-aleck response to a problem. But yeesh! Who needs neighbours like that!?
I think the fact that the original complaint also included an unfounded accusation of education neglect proves that this wasn't about being neighbourly.


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## Novella (Nov 8, 2006)

Just a quick follow-up about the locks under discussion:

I believe these locks are called "double-cylinder deadbolts". Check your local building code prior to installing one. In many locales, they are illegal b/c of the fire exit risk. Some places where they are legal have a requirement that a key be *permanently* installed within a certain distance of the door (eg. a key on a chain that is within 1 metre of the door).


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

We have them on all our doors - I hate them and eventually want to change them out - I leave the key in them permanently.


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## mama2myangels07 (May 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pynki* 
isn't Michigan where Kindhearthabibe is ? She had all her children taken and one of them killed. I wouldn't trust MI CPS as far as I could through them.

Yes Mich CPS is the ones that took Habibekindheart's kids.


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Thank you Townmouse for those very helpful ideas for the OP. I was thinking along those lines, but didn't have the concrete suggestions you have. That's what I meant by changing things. If kids can't be responsible, you take the responsibility away from them until they show they are ready for it. I personally use door alarms. It's magnetic and if any door or window opens that I am worried about, it goes off (and stops when the door closes, but is loud enough for me to hear upstairs).


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

UCmama2many, you have my support mama!








I hope your case is closed very soon. I'll keep your family in my thoughts.


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## MillingNome (Nov 18, 2005)

UCMamaToMany:







s

Whenever I hear about cps, I twitch too. I know that there are many good people that work for them, some of whom post here







Just that when they screw up, lives are held in the balance. This is not like giving someone the wrong order, labeling something incorrectly or having to redesign a project. Let's just say when cps is at its best, they deserve a medal. When they flub up and a family is destroyed or a life lost due to over/under-zealousness, imo, heads should role top to bottom. I am praying your cps people are capable of offering helpful suggestions and reasonable edicts... even though your state does not have the best track record for cps.

In the meantime, try a few of the suggestions the pp gave... or all, with the way your dc seem to be at escaping... minus the snarky ones - no locking them in the closet









Hang in there and keep your eyes peeled


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## MeganW (Jul 11, 2004)

I just want to offer hugs and support having recently been there and knowing what you're going through. Good for you for not letting them in, my dh did. I'm in MD in a VERY conservative community and we were contacted on allegations of drug abuse in the home and neglect (of course both were unfounded) I took my lawyer with me and I cooperated. FWIW If you can afford to take an atty with you friend or hired DO IT. Just the fact that I invested the time and money made a huge difference I think. I would not have thought NOT to answer some of the questions my atty refused and that they did not bring up again. In the end we ended up with an apology from the social worker, an offer to have a protective order on DH's ex who we thought filed even though they couldn't say yes or no it was pretty obvious and a suggestion that we buy a gate because our stairs aren't carpeted. Sounds to me ( i didn't read every post) that people annoyed by you're little escape artists made up what they could to get them out there. ( uneducated allegations) DH's ex tried to say that we took dd to parties, didn't take her to the dr and kept snakes in her BR.







Before she was mobile we did have reptiles in the room that is now hers (with proper locks and we all lived on the first floor at that time) oh and of course we don't vax but she has been to all her well child visits and we have a religious exemption. The social worker and I were actually laughing by the end of the visit. I know there are lots of horror stories and I was terrified but in the end I still carry this mans card and would not hesitate to call him if I felt a child really needed his help. PM me if you want to talk I was sooo scared and I know where you're coming from.


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## newmommy (Sep 15, 2003)

I didn't find siennasmom posts to be judgemental. I think she made some very good points and I'll leave it at that. Not up for discussion.

OP- I only have 1 child but when he was 2,he would think nothing of going out the front door. He's never escaped though but DH and I caught him unlocking the bottom lock.

What helped is we had (and continue to have) long talks with him that going out the front door without Mommy and Daddy is UNACCEPTABLE. Period.

Taking extreme measures (in addition to our talks), we kept our Brinks Security Alarm system activated at all times. If he opened that door (however), the alarm system would go OFF...it's loud enough to scare anybody!

Just a thought...an idea. I realize it may or may not work for you.


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## PreggieUBA2C (Mar 20, 2007)

We have three under four and we installed a second door inside making a sort of mudroom. This means two doors before the outside. The other thing we did was to have all of our chairs in the gated-in kitchen and all other sitting furniture consists of exercise balls we use for sitting on. Exercise balls suck for climbing up to locks







. Our boys are all tall, very tall, and they can reach anything anywhere by making piles of books, blocks, even couch cushions, which we've also removed.

These measures were actually to stop them from reaching into cupboards and closets to items that are not safe for them (because they can go in different directions and it's not reasonable to expect that I'll be able to have three children swarming my legs all day).

For leaving the house, we have just reiterated the 'rules' and made it clear that opening the door without mummie means no going outside for the whole day. I have gone over and over training them in this and also telling them that we all need to help each other be safe. There is no way any of them will let the other even touch the doorknob without telling me immediately, which I do rely upon somewhat, but not entirely. I have a home that allows me to see them and/or hear them no matter where I am and I haven't shut the door to use the toilet in four years- I sometimes have to play catch while I pee







...

We are moving next month and the set-up of the front door is very concerning to me. I will use chimes over the door as well as a gate at the stairs, but honestly, I think the gate might be more dangerous than the stairs and door together- if they do decide to climb the gate (and there is nothing they can't climb), they will go head first down the stairs and HIT the door. I've considered installing a whole screen door at the top of the stairs instead. Weird, but not much about our home isn't...

I am really concerned for OP that there are so many who seem to think they have everything figured out or that have implied that she has too many children to keep 'safe.' For us, the techniques for keeping the children safe are constantly evolving and it is pretty unfair to assume that if we happen to be one day late in the change, we're not fit to parent our littles. Even if that happens three times. There was a child in this province whose mother knew had gone out to the front yard to play in the snow. She was 9 years old and building a snow fort by tunnelling through the snow in the yard. She tunnelled all the way up to the edge of the yard, where the sidewalk was and a plow that was clearing a parking lot came and dumped it's load of snow right on this family's yard, crushing the child.

This was the first and only time a plow had done this, and obviously the operator had no idea, and the mum of the child couldn't have forseen the tragedy that ensued; she had done what she knew was acceptable every day until that one. It's easy to pass judgement, and you could say, well, this was just an accident, but it's an example of how we cannot control every variable in our lives. This mama couldn't predict the actions of an adult who should know better, but OP should be able to predict the previously unattempted or failed attempts of a toddler? I'm sure that where the woman above received sympathy, if the child was a toddler, she would have been prosecuted (unduly, imo).

OP has continued to update her security system to keep her dc safe, but three times, she has been one day or one hour or one minute late in predicting their decisions and abilities. We cannot control the impulses of other people, nor do we suddenly gain the ability to intuit them because we become mothers. I know that the arguement is that she should be doing more to fix this, but I just think it's not as black and white as that she shouldn't have so many children because of this.

OP, I would move, if I were you. We did move because we were concerned about the outside envirnoment in many ways, including the near hit of our son who was walking right next to us, saw a dog and flung himself up to the curb as dh caught him by the arm, terrifying us and the driver who was right there. We realised that we would not be able to live somewhere where half a second of impulse could end the life of our dc; there was always fast-moving traffic everywhere in the big city we used to live in. We now live where there are 200 people, wide roads, lots of pedestrians and slow drivers who are aware of their surroundings and not stressed out by traffic. If our dc ever did get out, they could drown in one of the many lakes within a few minutes of our house or be eaten by bears or mountain lions, but that risk is sooooooo much less than any in the city. I'd take the chance of a bear encounter over a child predator or highway traffic any day, and here, every day. Not to mention the complete lack of support you have there from neighbours and not just that but deliberate intention to have your children taken away; anyone calling CPS knows that's why they are calling. Nobody calls CPS to have them 'check in' on a family. That's just as easily done by knocking on your door.

Is there any way to just extend your fence instead of building a new one?

In any case, I feel very badly for you in this. Maybe CPS won't list the escapes at all and just the homeschooling; that would be much easier to deal with. I hope that's the case. I am also relieved for you that you have rights there. In Canada, child protection workers are legally allowed to enter and act according to 'good faith' as seen by them and they do not need a warrant or even the name or address of the child they want to see. If they are impeded, the dc can be legally taken away and parents put in jail while foster care is arranged. They cannot be prosecuted, unless they act illegally outside their jurisdiction such as while in court purjuring themselves, but while 'investigating,' their actions are simply legal, no matter what they are unless they have committed a crime against the child such as molestation (apparently kidnapping, vaccinating, administering drugs based upon a single visit to a dr. against parents wishes, circ'ing, and placing the child in the care of known child abusers are fine though). They are completely unbound by the law- they have more power than any law enforcement agency or individual in the country, and they use it. I think it's disgusting. And Im sure that there are some well-meaning cpw's out there; but as we've learned in this thread... it just takes one time...







:

I am very glad for you that you are able and knowledgable to protect your family!


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## UCmamaToMany (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siennasmom* 
She said that the neighbors have talked to her.

No they yelled at me and judged me. There was nothing civilized about this person approaching me. So much so the last time as soon as I got to the door and she saw me was was walking off in a huff while yelling at me. She didn't stop to see if I needed help, or to talk to me or to even get to know me. She quickly passed judgement and just deemed me "worthy" of and unfit parent, enough to just call CPS.

These incidents took place months apart. The first one happened in about March, when we added the first lock. When she came to the door she was more blunt about things but not real friendly or concerned enough to even chat or get to know me. The second time took place around late April early May and that is when she did what I described above.

Now early/mid June lock still working and in place, the boys find a new way out of the yard and without so much as a second thought she just calls CPS. I don't think she had ANY interest in "talking" with me. She had already passed judgement after the first incident.


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## f&p'smama (Sep 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *townmouse* 
As a homeschooling mother of 4 boys who are close in age, I am *not* feeling judgmental of the OP. I do have a few tips (some of these would make Alfie Kohn angry, some might get me thrown off MDC, but the OP is in a crisis so I'll help if I can and let the chips fall where they may).

A child under the age of 4 *can* be kept in sight at all times. If you go upstairs, he goes. If you go to the garage, he goes. If you are loading the washer or hanging laundry or going to the bathroom or taking a shower or cooking supper: so is he. Have something for them to do in each room or area, but always keep them with you. I've done it, you can do it.

In the yard, if he doesn't stay near you, then explain to him, "You didn't stay with mama. Outside time is over, let's go in the house." Next time before you go in the yard, remind him. "We may not go by the street. Stay on this side of the tree (whatever) with mama or we will have to go right back in the house." and then enforce it.

As he gets older, lengthen the apron strings. Give him chances to prove he can stay where you left him without escaping. Use rewards, charts, stickers or whatever to get it into his little head.

Concerning the older kids: any kid who is too young to understand that he's jeopardizing his baby siblings life when he doesn't lock the door is too young to be allowed to go in and out without mama. You and/or your oldest and most responsible child will have to be the gatekeepers. You want out? Ask mama, mama will lock the door.

Use alot of language around the whole family to reinforce rules. When you go to the bathroom (taking the toddlers with you) remind everyone in the house, "I'll be in the bathroom for a minute. Don't go out until I get back, and don't open the door for anyone." Say that every single time, and the toddlers will soak up the rules, too.

This all sounds awful but it is not too harsh or extreme when you have babies in the street and neighbors calling CPS. And you can do it all lovingly, with a gentle voice. I did it, for several years. The boys are older, they don't even remember those days, and all they do remember is our fun, games, playtimes, togetherness, outings, etc.

I did not punish them for leaving doors unlocked or escaping. I took it as a warning to myself that I wasn't watching closely enough if that could happen. So I'd return to the previous level of supervision, and try again to expand his freedom in a month or two.

OP, I wish you the best. If I were your neighbor and I saw your babies in the street, I wouldn't call CPS. I'd run out and get them and bring them home. And invite you and your kids over to play. Large families need support, and it can be hard to find in some neighborhoods!

I think you have offered great advice. In December, I will be a Mom to 3 kids under 3, two of whom are wild monkeys and can be destructive and do dangerous things. So I am curious about how you enforce the young children always being with you. I am envisioning myself using the bathroom, and they run away, or in the middle of cooking, etc, and spending half my day retrieving the children. How did you get them to buy in to staying with you?


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UCmamaToMany* 
No they yelled at me and judged me. There was nothing civilized about this person approaching me. So much so the last time as soon as I got to the door and she saw me was was walking off in a huff while yelling at me. She didn't stop to see if I needed help, or to talk to me or to even get to know me. She quickly passed judgement and just deemed me "worthy" of and unfit parent, enough to just call CPS.


So, we can basically assume she called CPS?

I sure am glad she spent so much time getting to know your children. After all, she knew quite well that they are blithering idiots, and can't string two words together.

Shouldn't there be a penalty for false accusations? "Her kids can't even write their own names".

Anyway..... I remember reading here about a year ago, someone was in a similar position. The other posters suggested that she put her kids to bed, or get some help and then clean the entire house. Throw away anything that might be considered a danger, and secure all the doors.

I have no idea what her outcome was. I hope it was good.

I suggest doing that yourself, just so, if they do come back, you can prove to them that your house is fine, and your kids are actually quite intelligent.

I have watched the show about the Dilly sextuplets, and the Morman family with 16-ish kids. They have some awsome tips on organizing such a large family. Maybe they have websites that will give you some good ideas to get the kids organized enough, so that you aren't doing all the work yourself. It can be too overwhelming otherwise.

Good luck with this. It is interesting to see just how easy it is to have our worlds turned upside down by a nasty neighbor.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

hmm, I'm thinking RETALIATION!!







HOw about the biggest, ugliest, gawdiest fence you can find...a stinky lawnmower...hmmm, and let your children blow all of your dandilions to her yard. Anyone else got any good nasty neighbor retaliation ideas....legal of course?

Lisa


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Quote:

This was the first and only time a plow had done this, and obviously the operator had no idea, and the mum of the child couldn't have forseen the tragedy that ensued; she had done what she knew was acceptable every day until that one. It's easy to pass judgement, and you could say, well, this was just an accident, but it's an example of how we cannot control every variable in our lives. This mama couldn't predict the actions of an adult who should know better, but OP should be able to predict the previously unattempted or failed attempts of a toddler? I'm sure that where the woman above received sympathy, if the child was a toddler, she would have been prosecuted (unduly, imo).
Well, my argument would be, the child was unsupervised. I would never let my toddler play in the front yard without supervision. I get nervous at my friend's house with the three kids playing outside without supervision. Sure, stuff can happen, ever very unlikely things.

Quote:

Not to mention the complete lack of support you have there from neighbours and not just that but deliberate intention to have your children taken away; anyone calling CPS knows that's why they are calling. Nobody calls CPS to have them 'check in' on a family. That's just as easily done by knocking on your door.
The OP's neighbor withstanding (it does indeed sound like she was mean, but then again, there are always two sides to a story and we are hearing only one, btw, that is my standard statement on all things), and making false statements, but arguing that any call to CPS is asking for a child to be removed and not just having CPS "check in" is just wrong on so many counts.

I have called CPS as a mandated reporter, I took that title very seriously. If I were to see anything that looks like neglect or abuse it was my MANDATED job to report to CPS and have them sort it out. I don't make judgements as to the causes or reasons for the situation looking the way it does, that's not my job, that's the job of CPS. It isn't my job or anyone else's imo to figure out whether the situation necessitates a child needing removal, or to help in the situation (not that I don't help if I can). I can see a situation in my neighborhood where it may or may not be abuse or neglect, but me calling doesn't mean I want that child removed. CPS's job is to figure that out.

When I called on the two cases, one was a child with strap marks on his back and a dark looking area that I took to be a bruise. I found out later it was mongolian spots, but he was indeed beat with a belt previously, and the mother thanked me for caring about her son. I didn't want that child removed, it just wasn't my job to investigate and MAKE JUDGEMENT as to whether he was being abused.

The second time, a child had several severe accidents in a very short of time, the last two involving serious burns. One was when his brother shoved him into the wall heater and he burned his bare skin, the second was a burn caused by a cigarette, and both were very bad. They both happened the same week. I wasn't sure if there was abuse involved (we had suspicions the mother was using drugs), or even if there was neglect, but certainly an argument for neglect could be made, two serious burns in the same week, with the mother saying she didn't witness either.

As a person who has reported to CPS, while my report may be unfounded, or at least upon investigation may just be filed, if more things happen in the future and my report isn't there, then the next report might just be pooh poohed, when it could be a serious case. I don't want to not report when it looks like neglect or abuse might be possible, because a pattern would not be shown if there was indeed one.


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## mommaduck (Sep 13, 2005)

The lack of education charge is most like added just to make it look legit. If they have "one kid ran out into the front yard"..."near the street"...that all wouldn't cut it. So they have to trump it up good.

We've had the same thing happen. Hang in there. CPS is not in a position to determine child education.


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## UCmamaToMany (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
So, we can basically assume she called CPS?

I sure am glad she spent so much time getting to know your children. After all, she knew quite well that they are blithering idiots, and can't string two words together.

Shouldn't there be a penalty for false accusations? "Her kids can't even write their own names".

Anyway..... I remember reading here about a year ago, someone was in a similar position. The other posters suggested that she put her kids to bed, or get some help and then clean the entire house. Throw away anything that might be considered a danger, and secure all the doors.

I have no idea what her outcome was. I hope it was good.

I suggest doing that yourself, just so, if they do come back, you can prove to them that your house is fine, and your kids are actually quite intelligent.

I have watched the show about the Dilly sextuplets, and the Morman family with 16-ish kids. They have some awsome tips on organizing such a large family. Maybe they have websites that will give you some good ideas to get the kids organized enough, so that you aren't doing all the work yourself. It can be too overwhelming otherwise.

Good luck with this. It is interesting to see just how easy it is to have our worlds turned upside down by a nasty neighbor.

Yes I am "assuming" and I know this, but it really is the only one we can figure who would do this. For all I know it was someone totally different.

Being 27 weeks pregnant and knowing my abilities right now I called some friends yesterday to come and help me clean. It absolutely sucked because I had to swallow my pride and all but when they were here today I was really relieved as my feet ballooned and every time I got up I would get dizzy. I sat and folded about 5 loads of laundry and put them away between water breaks.

I only got 3 hours of sleep last night and today it was nice to have real friends give me real support and real help, YK?! I love helping others but it can be so difficult sometimes to accept it but I knew it was my only option if I wanted to make the best possible impression for when "they" return. I just can't deep clean my house right now and I am paranoid about the unknowns with CPS and all.

On another board of mine someone replied with a great observation:

Quote:

Years ago there were two articles in the same paper on the same day. One was a family under investigation because they also had a 3 yr old night escape artist. The other family was being charged with child endangerment because they had locked the 3 yr old in his room at night and he couldn't get out the door during a fire. You cannot have it both ways. You can only do the best you can for your situation. The law wants to find fault and you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Without creating serious fire hazards I've secured the doors. The only door left unlocked was the one to what we considered a secure backyard with fencing and locked gates. It just didn't take them long to figure out how to climb the chain link fence.

We are renting the house and for a while now I have disliked the neighborhood. This just solidifies my disliking of the area. I'd much rather be back in our 900sqft house with nice helpful neighbors than in this big 2000+ sq ft house with a sex offender 2 doors down and gossipping, busy body neighbors who are seriously unfriendly.

My personal dream would be to afford a nice small acered farm with neighbors far and few between.

*Also for the daycare and grandma comments, all I can say is that if either the daycare of the grandma NEVER addressed the issue and NEVER upped security measures than yes they shouldn't be allowed. That's negligence on their part and are proving to be a safety risk.

If they improve security and put extra safety measures in and a child still escapes then I don't know what to tell you. Who's fault is it then? The daycare or grandmother's who are literally doing their best to keep a child safe or the child's who adapts and adjusts and still finds new ways to escape and endanger himself?


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

I think townmouse just about has it covered. I've used similar ideas when my oldest wasn't closing the sliding door when he came in from outside, thus allowing his little brother to get out back. He just wasn't allowed to open the door without asking me.


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## GranoLLLy-girl (Mar 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *townmouse* 
As a homeschooling mother of 4 boys who are close in age, I am *not* feeling judgmental of the OP. I do have a few tips (some of these would make Alfie Kohn angry, some might get me thrown off MDC, but the OP is in a crisis so I'll help if I can and let the chips fall where they may).

A child under the age of 4 *can* be kept in sight at all times. If you go upstairs, he goes. If you go to the garage, he goes. If you are loading the washer or hanging laundry or going to the bathroom or taking a shower or cooking supper: so is he. Have something for them to do in each room or area, but always keep them with you. I've done it, you can do it.

In the yard, if he doesn't stay near you, then explain to him, "You didn't stay with mama. Outside time is over, let's go in the house." Next time before you go in the yard, remind him. "We may not go by the street. Stay on this side of the tree (whatever) with mama or we will have to go right back in the house." and then enforce it.

As he gets older, lengthen the apron strings. Give him chances to prove he can stay where you left him without escaping. Use rewards, charts, stickers or whatever to get it into his little head.

Concerning the older kids: any kid who is too young to understand that he's jeopardizing his baby siblings life when he doesn't lock the door is too young to be allowed to go in and out without mama. You and/or your oldest and most responsible child will have to be the gatekeepers. You want out? Ask mama, mama will lock the door.

Use alot of language around the whole family to reinforce rules. When you go to the bathroom (taking the toddlers with you) remind everyone in the house, "I'll be in the bathroom for a minute. Don't go out until I get back, and don't open the door for anyone." Say that every single time, and the toddlers will soak up the rules, too.

This all sounds awful but it is not too harsh or extreme when you have babies in the street and neighbors calling CPS. And you can do it all lovingly, with a gentle voice. I did it, for several years. The boys are older, they don't even remember those days, and all they do remember is our fun, games, playtimes, togetherness, outings, etc.

I did not punish them for leaving doors unlocked or escaping. I took it as a warning to myself that I wasn't watching closely enough if that could happen. So I'd return to the previous level of supervision, and try again to expand his freedom in a month or two.

OP, I wish you the best. If I were your neighbor and I saw your babies in the street, I wouldn't call CPS. I'd run out and get them and bring them home. And invite you and your kids over to play. Large families need support, and it can be hard to find in some neighborhoods!


This is very good. I second the idea of having toys/stuff to do in every location and taking the children with you to each and every room.
When we moved to this house, the previous owner had a sliding bar lock on the inside of all the doors but placed at the TOP of the door instead of near the middle, near the doorknob where you would expect it. My two are not runners, but I thought this was clever and left it there. Perhaps this would be helpful to install? They are very inexpensive.
We also have an alarm system that is armed at all times and tells me what doors are open--but I do realize that these do not fit every budget.


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## UCmamaToMany (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisa49* 
hmm, I'm thinking RETALIATION!!







HOw about the biggest, ugliest, gawdiest fence you can find...a stinky lawnmower...hmmm, and let your children blow all of your dandilions to her yard. Anyone else got any good nasty neighbor retaliation ideas....legal of course?

Lisa

Honestly I was thinking at one point of sending my older kids to her sidewalk with chalk so they could write their names, LOL. Maybe have them do some math problems too and maybe write a short story too, LOL

She'd probably get annoyed but hey at least she couldn't say they didn't know how to spell their names, or read or write. Because you can't write unless you know how to read.


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## JBaxter (May 1, 2005)

: send them out with the side walk chalk and have them write "The Mean Lady over there ( place and arrow) called CPS on my Mommy" It will prove they can spell and you get an art credit on your homeschool chart









Hugs to you I have an escape artist also. he was taking out the screws from his toys by age 2. I found I had to turn on our security alarm if I wantd to shower JUST so I would know if he lfet the house. He used the chairs to reach the dead bolt locks but I found the toy hand cuffs at walmart ( 2.96 a pair) will secure kitchen chair legs to the table and you can still pull the chairs out enough to use them.

I hope it all works out.


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## Frithweaver (Jun 12, 2007)

Bear in mind, that if she continues to push the point surely you can try harassment and defamation of character charges.

Oh many hugs! I am very new here(well I browsed for a day or so...), but I hope that you'll take my best wishes! I think you did the right thing, and I'm so happy that you have such good friends! Of course your house is a mess, you are a mother of six with another on the way! I'm relieved that you do have support.


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## aprilushka (Aug 28, 2005)

I don't have any advice -- I think there's a lot of judgmentalism on this board. No matter what a person does, something can happen to a kid and all you can do is take reasonable measures without turning your house into a prison. I'm inclined to think it's exactly when you go overboard that something is more likely to happen b/c eventually the kids get tired of it and try even harder to do more extreme things than they otherwise would when safety is done in moderation. Of course there is real neglect, but I think that's pretty rare. Most tragic incidents are just that, and it's not worth it to so restrict a child's life to try to cover every imaginable incident. For a board that recognizes the benefit-risk analysis of homebirth in this respect, I get surprised about how inflexible people are about other benefit-risk analyses. Almost all of us take are kids in cars on a regular basis at quite fast speeds which is a danger to them even in car seats -- obviously we are applying a moderate view to that risk-benefit analysis, one could do the same with other risks.

I'm inclined to think the nosy neighbor disapproves of the number of kids you have and your homeschooling, based on her own class prejudices. I think personally she wouldn't have called on the kids being outside if it wasn't for the homeschooling. Moving might not be such a bad idea.


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Quote:

If they improve security and put extra safety measures in and a child still escapes then I don't know what to tell you. Who's fault is it then? The daycare or grandmother's who are literally doing their best to keep a child safe or the child's who adapts and adjusts and still finds new ways to escape and endanger himself?
See, now this is where you come off as being cavalier. My intentions towards you are honorable, I don't come here to bash you, but this statement just doesn't make sense to me. It is the JOB of children to adapt, adjust and TEST boundaries. That is what they do. Any parent who doesn't realize that is asking for trouble. We DO have to anticipate as best as we can on a developmental level. It isn't the "fault" of children that they test these boundaries, it is OUR fault if we don't work on enforcing proper boundaries, whether we are parents, grandparents, or care providers. If a child tests these boundaries and gets hurt, we may blame the child, but it is inherently OUR responsibility not theirs. If a child drowns in a backyard pool after getting out of their house (happened to a family friend, not their pool, but the neighbors, when the children were playing unsupervised in the backyard and got out) we don't blame the child, we look to the parents and ask where were they? It happens, sure, and the child pays the ultimate price, as well as the parents who will forever be asking "what if?".

We know to do certain things for children of a certain age/development because that is what children do. When they are little we take small objects out of the play area because they can easily choke, we take serious obstacles out of their way when they are learning to walk because we don't want them to hurt themselves on those objects (like my glass coffee table, or fire tools).


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## mama_daba (Dec 7, 2004)

i love the chalk ideas

i have one idea that wouldn't make a fire hazard and wouldn't keep kids inside but might alert you sooner. what if you got something like stores have that would make a loud beeping sound when the door is opened and closed? preferably loud enough so even if you are in another part of the house or doing something noisy you would hear it?

i don't know if that would help at all or where one would get such a device and maybe someone else already suggested it. i haven't read every post

i'm sorry you are going through something so stressful.


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## Mama Dragon (Dec 5, 2005)

nak.....Seriously, I'd move out of that state. Habibkindheart has lost all 10 of her kids there, the first 2-3 because she admittedly needed some help, the rest taken after she'd fixed everything, they removed the kids because there was a history. That state is MESSED UP. I'm thinking about you!!


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## True Blue (May 9, 2003)

I think this could be a big help to you. I actually just got it for certain situations with my two kids (my friend's son was actually kidnapped last summer from the neighborhood...a nice, military neighborhood...by a military man....in whose apt they found child porn, and upon further investigation a trail of molestation or attempted...hes in jail now, luckily he did not get away with my friend's son). The bracelets go on snug and "lock" on, so the kids can't remove them. You can set a general "perimeter" for how far they can be from you, and if they pass it, your little monitor beeps and vibrates to alert you, and helps you find them (since mine are still usually in sight, it's just a verbal reminder to come closer, but you get the idea). It also lets me allow my 5 year old to go outside while I am inside for a few minutes and still give me a little peace of mind (not that I let him hang out outside for hours without me...but if I have to run in for 5 minutes, I know he's still there). I found mine cheaper on ebay. It seems like it would be a good viable option for you since I know you are also busy trying to school the other ones, being pregnant, and trying to maintain your house.


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## UCmamaToMany (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal* 
See, now this is where you come off as being cavalier. My intentions towards you are honorable, I don't come here to bash you, but this statement just doesn't make sense to me. It is the JOB of children to adapt, adjust and TEST boundaries. That is what they do. Any parent who doesn't realize that is asking for trouble. We DO have to anticipate as best as we can on a developmental level. It isn't the "fault" of children that they test these boundaries, it is OUR fault if we don't work on enforcing proper boundaries, whether we are parents, grandparents, or care providers. If a child tests these boundaries and gets hurt, we may blame the child, but it is inherently OUR responsibility not theirs. If a child drowns in a backyard pool after getting out of their house (happened to a family friend, not their pool, but the neighbors, when the children were playing unsupervised in the backyard and got out) we don't blame the child, we look to the parents and ask where were they? It happens, sure, and the child pays the ultimate price, as well as the parents who will forever be asking "what if?".

We know to do certain things for children of a certain age/development because that is what children do. When they are little we take small objects out of the play area because they can easily choke, we take serious obstacles out of their way when they are learning to walk because we don't want them to hurt themselves on those objects (like my glass coffee table, or fire tools).

First of all age developement is not clear cut. One child may be more advanced than another. Like my oldest who started walking at 6 months of age compared to the rest of mine who averaged around the 12 mo mark. So even if you secure for supposed age and appropriate development for that age does not mean that the child is past that supposed mile marker or even behind!

I mean you have one 2 yo who knows each president's name and face and order they were president and another who can't even recite his ABC's. It's all relative when it comes to age, stage, and developement. A secondary caregiver may not always be up to date on these developmental changes as a parent is.

I don't believe it is the secondary caregiver's fault if they are *proactive* (this is the main point) in keeping a child safe and OF COURSE it's not the child's fault for adapting, that was my point. It's the fact that we as adults can not predict the future on how fast a child will figure things out like safety and security measures. But why does it have to be ANYBODY's fault. Oh I get it we have to fault someone and it might as well be someone who is older even though they aren't psychic. It's a fault based world. "I'm fat so it's fast food's fault." "I have lung cancer, it was the cigarette company's fault."

Children do rely on us to take care of them. We give them rules, we put safety measures in place, triple locking the doors, adding alarms, baby gates, and more, we scold them and try to correct their dangerous behaviour and explain danger and what's dangerous and what they can and can't do. But even with all of this in place it is NOT a 100% guarantee that NOTHING will go wrong. Children disobey, they get into trouble they push boundaries and it can be dangerous for them and again Ifind it very difficult to find blame on anyone!

As hard as we try to keep one step ahead of a child's developement it just can not always be done to make sure one is doing just that.

If this make me cavalier, condescending, curt, disdainful, haughty, high-and-mighty, insolent, lofty, lordly, offhand, overbearing, proud, scornful, supercilious, superior, in my opinion and I guess I am.

Quote:

_*tounge-in-cheek*_
Whenever your kids are out of control, you can take comfort from the thought that even God's omnipotence did not extend to God's kids. After creating heaven and earth, God created Adam and Eve. And the first thing He said to them was: "Don't."

"Don't what?" Adam replied.

"Don't eat the forbidden fruit." God said.

"Forbidden fruit? We got forbidden fruit?"

"Hey, Eve . . .we got forbidden fruit."

"NO WAY."

"Don't eat that fruit ! said God.

"Why?"

"Because I'm your Father and I said so!" said God, wondering why He hadn't stopped after making the elephants.

A few minutes later God saw the kids having an apple break and was angry.

"Didn't I tell you not to eat that fruit?" the First Parent asked.

"Uh huh," Adam replied.

"Then why did you?"

"I dunno," Eve answered.

"She started it!" Adam said.

"Did not."

"Did so."

"Did NOT !!"

Having had it with the two of them, God's punishment was that Adam and Eve should have children of their own. Thus the pattern was set and it has never changed.

But there is a reassurance in this story.

If you have persistently and lovingly tried to give them wisdom and they haven't taken it, don't be hard on yourself.

*If God had trouble handling children, what makes you think it would be a piece of cake for you?*


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## mom3b1? (Jun 3, 2007)

I"m so sorry you are having this difficulty. I homeschooled and UC'd in Michigan, before moving to where I live now. I was threatened with social workers by University of Michigan Hospital Staff, when I wanted to change my plans for having baby 2 from birthing with them, to homebirth. Then I UC'd number three.

One of the great things about Michigan is that it's such an easy state to homeschool in because the law doesn't require reporting or documentation. The downside of that is that without reporting and documenting it's easier for people to make ridiculous accusations. If you were lazy and didn't care about your children's education the easiest thing in the world would be to drop them off at the nearest public school. I'm not saying that all people who send their kids to public school don't care, just that it's an option. Mine now go to public school by necessity, and I definitely care. Your house would be so much quieter, and you'd have time to clean, and maybe even relax. I"ve heard people make some pretty crazy statements about people homeschooling to be lazy. How is it lazy to be taking care of 6 kids, when you could farm some of them out to public school?

I had hook and eyes on my doors when they were that age. It kept them in. It also meant that when my then husband came home he had to knock so I could unhook it so he could come in. My autistic boy was an escaper too.

I'm sure the HSLDA lawyers will be able to direct you about how to defend yourself. I'm glad you've got them on your side, that membership is money well spent!

Best wishes, and big Mama Hugs,

Kiley


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## sugarmoon (Feb 18, 2003)

I haven't read all the replies, so I hope I'm not repeating some one, but...

you can get a keyed door alarm for about 30 bucks at radio shack. the door is not locked (so no fire hazard), but if you open the door when it is on, it is earsplittingly loud. Loud enough that I'd wager it would make my 2,3 and 4 yr old hellions run under a table and cry. Installing that would be a great deterrent to the kids AND there's no way you'd miss it if anyone went outside -- just be sure to keep the key (turns it on and off) where the kids can't get it/don't know where it is, cause if they are anything like mine, they'll use the key if they can!


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## Nikki98 (Sep 9, 2006)

Lots of responses here, haven't read them all thoroughly, but really lets look at the ratio-there are six kids to one adult (one pregnant adult as well) so your plate is pretty full. I don't know if this has been asked, but is there a way to get some hands on help (relatives, church members, from your spouse) because I can imagine that you are definitely busy. This has to be difficult for you, but I don't think you can expect to do all that you do alone.


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Quote:

First of all age developement is not clear cut. One child may be more advanced than another. Like my oldest who started walking at 6 months of age compared to the rest of mine who averaged around the 12 mo mark. So even if you secure for supposed age and appropriate development for that age does not mean that the child is past that supposed mile marker or even behind!
I never said age, I said development, and development is pretty standard. We can anticipate development for the most part. You know when your kid starts crawling you need to do certain things, you know when they start walking you need to do certain things, and so on and so on. That's the thing, one kid might do this at 2, another at 4, but you can anticipate most of this if you study child development. Each child is different to their own degree, but not all that different.

Like I said, get an alarm. Then you know immediately when someone leaves the house, and if the older children cannot leave without being responsible about doors, they aren't responsible enough to leave the house.

Quote:

A secondary caregiver may not always be up to date on these developmental changes as a parent is.
I would definitely fault a daycare provider for not being up on child development, and not insuring my child cannot escape their facility. I was a teacher for 10 years, in a school that cared for 60 children. We only had push to exit doors, and only very rarely in those 10 years did a child ever get to push those doors, and once they did they never got more than 3 steps. We did what we had to do to always monitor that door, and the gates that led out to the parking lot. I think you have gotten a lot of ideas on how to do this for your own children, I hope you take their advice so you can eliminate your children getting away from your home unmonitored.

Quote:

I don't believe it is the secondary caregiver's fault if they are proactive (this is the main point) in keeping a child safe and OF COURSE it's not the child's fault for adapting, that was my point.
That's not how I read it at all. That's not what I read in the rest of your post. Do you honestly fault the child for escaping? You said this

Quote:

*Who's fault is it then? The daycare or grandmother's who are literally doing their best to keep a child safe or the child's who adapts and adjusts and still finds new ways to escape and endanger himself?*

Quote:

But why does it have to be ANYBODY's fault. Oh I get it we have to fault someone and it might as well be someone who is older even though they aren't psychic. It's a fault based world. "I'm fat so it's fast food's fault." "I have lung cancer, it was the cigarette company's fault."
It's called personal responsibility, and your statements about smoking and fast food make no sense here. You are the parent, you are the one supervising your own children in your home. I think the previous question posed about how angry folks would be if this was happening at a preschool or by a secondary caregiver are on point. We would be livid and wonder if the child needed to be removed from that care situation. That's what some have tried to discuss, perhaps in a way that definitely puts you on the defense, and I can understand that given your situation. I think blaming a person who calls on a questionable situation (in their mind) isn't taking personal responsibility, I think saying it's no one's fault if a young child escapes their home unnoticed in a timely manner is not taking personal responsibility, I think advocating for retribution against someone regardless of whether you know for sure or not if they reported you is unwise and again focusing blame on others (not that you need blaming), and I definitely think blaming a child for said escaping isn't taking personal responsibility.

I feel for you in your situation, no one wants to be there, whether at fault or not (again, not saying you are at fault). I hope things get rectified quickly, nothing dire happens to you or your children, and I appreciate you are getting help. I hope the best for you and your family. But please, do more to insure they don't escape, for their sake and your own as a mother, and please,







don't ever use that Adam and Eve story again. I know parenting isn't easy and we don't always live up to our standards or others, but a simple, I am going to try harder instead of blaming children is sufficient in this situation and would garner you more respect and support. It was a concern for some of us, that's all. No one wishes you harm.


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## treqi (Dec 31, 2006)

My suggestion for the fence would be to (I guess get your landlords permission) and then make your fence double sided with no foot holds if its a chain link maybe get some barbed wire to spool along the bottom? no maybe some chicken wire to eliminate foot holds.


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## PreggieUBA2C (Mar 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal* 
Well, my argument would be, the child was unsupervised. I would never let my toddler play in the front yard without supervision. I get nervous at my friend's house with the three kids playing outside without supervision. Sure, stuff can happen, ever very unlikely things.

Okay, and what if the mama was outside shovelling the drive, saw the plow approaching on the road, thought nothing of it (which I did until I was told this story), and the snow was dropped on her child anyway? Should she have been crawling in the tunnel too so as not to lose sight? Then of course, they both would have been crushed, but I suppose that's beside the point, or not- maybe then she would be accused of negligence for not being on the lookout for possible problems. I just think there are too many variables to consider and act upon every conceivable one, and keep in mind that the more people there are in a home, the more variables there are- they increase exponentially with each addition. I am more inclined to assume that a mother IS taking care of her children until it is proven otherwise by VERY clear means. That and how hard is it to ask a question?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal* 
... but arguing that any call to CPS is asking for a child to be removed and not just having CPS "check in" is just wrong on so many counts.

Really?

The following is the link to the children's aid 'eligibility spectrum' for my province. You may be living with different laws, but I suspect there isn't too much difference from the perspective of the cpws.

http://www.oacas.org/resources/eligi...trum06nov1.pdf

You'll notice that early on in the document, page 5, it lists the levels of abuse on the chart. You'll also notice that because cpws are required to investigate claims, and there is no category for NO ABUSE (!), the best a reported parent can 'score' on the chart is 'not severe' abuse. If you don't think the child would be better off with someone else, why do you call the people whose job it is to find homes for abused children? They don't exist to go to family bbqs, chat up the parents and encourage their good choices in parenting. That's what good friends and good neighbours do.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal* 
I have called CPS as a mandated reporter, I took that title very seriously. If I were to see anything that looks like neglect or abuse it was my MANDATED job to report to CPS and have them sort it out. I don't make judgements as to the causes or reasons for the situation looking the way it does, that's not my job, that's the job of CPS. It isn't my job or anyone else's imo to figure out whether the situation necessitates a child needing removal, or to help in the situation (not that I don't help if I can). I can see a situation in my neighborhood where it may or may not be abuse or neglect, but me calling doesn't mean I want that child removed. CPS's job is to figure that out.

I disagree very strongly with your perspective as you've expressed it here. Essentially you've said, "I use my eyes and ears and if I see something that I could conclude based upon no judgment of mine and no peripheral evidence might be considered abuse by cps, I call them out of my sense of duty to them and the title they have granted me. I am in no way obligated once I have made my observations known to substantiate any evidence or lack thereof and cannot be held liable or responsible for what cps does with the observations I have reported." This is very Orwellian and thereby, to me, creepy. Stating in the end that your reporting doesn't mean that you ipso facto wanted the child removed smacks of a strange sort of ignorance or a washing of your hands.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal* 
When I called on the two cases, one was a child with strap marks on his back and a dark looking area that I took to be a bruise. I found out later it was mongolian spots, but he was indeed beat with a belt previously, and the mother thanked me for caring about her son. I didn't want that child removed, it just wasn't my job to investigate and MAKE JUDGEMENT as to whether he was being abused.

So my question is why didn't you ask the child's mother if indeed you had contact with her? She could have told you about the spots and might even have told you about the belting. Then you could have discussed how gentle discipline is a respectful manner of guiding a child and given her some specific examples to deal with the explanation she no doubt would volunteer for why her child was belted. Does this not seem at all like a better route than tattling on her with the very real possibility of destroying her family when all that was needed was education? Why does this come down to whose 'job' it is? You've accepted the 'job' of mandated reporter but feel that you'd be overstepping your title by offering support to the mother in question? I think that's bizarre.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal* 
The second time, a child had several severe accidents in a very short of time, the last two involving serious burns. One was when his brother shoved him into the wall heater and he burned his bare skin, the second was a burn caused by a cigarette, and both were very bad. They both happened the same week. I wasn't sure if there was abuse involved (we had suspicions the mother was using drugs), or even if there was neglect, but certainly an argument for neglect could be made, two serious burns in the same week, with the mother saying she didn't witness either.

I would be concerned seeing this as well, but I am now confused about your perceived title. Here you have expressed your ability to make an _arguement_ _for neglect_. Why would you want to do that? Why would that be your _first_ response, aside from calling the people who would obviously remove the child if _they_ made the argument? I really hope there is more to the story here. You have claimed that you make no judgements, but clearly you had to have made some and implied them at least or you wouldn't have this story to tell.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal* 
As a person who has reported to CPS, while my report may be unfounded, or at least upon investigation may just be filed, if more things happen in the future and my report isn't there, then the next report might just be pooh poohed, when it could be a serious case. I don't want to not report when it looks like neglect or abuse might be possible, because a pattern would not be shown if there was indeed one.

This is the line I am concerned about most in this last paragraph: "I don't want to not report when it looks like neglect or abuse might be possible... (underlining mine for emphasis)"

This is Big Brother, through and through. "See something unusual? Report it! Remember, it's your duty." OR, maybe you'll file the complaint against the woman whose child has mongolian spots and a belt mark, and maybe she completely reforms her discipline and never hits the child again, BUT someone else who thinks like you do reports her for the spots and now, and only for your foresight here, cps can indeed make a case for abuse because of her _history_, regardless of the spots- they are not the issue anymore.

Your mentality on this issue is reminiscent of the young spies brainwashed into reporting hiding jews during the nazi regime. I'm sure I'll be flamed for this comparison, but I think it is warranted, and I am no stranger to the effect those spies had on the families who perished and those who escaped inspite of them. I am not calling you a nazi, I'm equating the mentality that you have embraced as you admit it was told to you, sealed with your 'title' as mandated reporter which you take seriously. I hope you will reconsider where your views conclude; please do not take this lightly. You have completely overstepped the boundaries of the freedom of others to live peacefully just by your belief that you are required to report your observations regardless of whether or not they are reasonable (in fact, not _theory_- which you seem to think is adequate motivation), and only if they can be understood as 'looking like' something they may or may not be. I would be very concerned about living near you because you seem to feel entitled to the private life of others. I know there are children who are genuinely in need of help, but your foremost concerns are your title/duty, how things look/can be argued, and that you do not take responsibility for where the cps chips fall. You might counter that you're most concerned about the children, but if you have thought through this at all, you would already know that the places they would be taken if cps went ahead with removal, wouldn't necessarily be even adequate. I am not suggesting ignoring actual abuse because of the possibility of poor foster care, but at least consider that a removed child is going to be put into a poorly regulated, paid care home, possibly much much worse than the one he/she came from. I know you think you are not judging; does that mean that you are also free to not consider the consequences to the child whose life you have directly impacted? There are foster children who have been placd in the care of bootleggers and alcoholics in the town where I live (for those children, this was actually a step up); cps knows this information but has made it impossible for others who would provide good care for these children to be chosen for fostering because of a cultural mandate. There are a lot of variables. I don't think it's wise at all to just throw your hands up as if it's not your responsibility to consider the likely stopping place of the proverbial ball you've started rolling.

I do know something about this, and I could very easily have been taken from my parents and I am sure a case would have been easily substantiated in fact, but nobody called; I was a very good secret keeper as a child. You seem to have been able to find out the concluding information about the families you disrupted rather easily, and probably could have asked the mothers questions before calling. Many if not most children who are actually abused are much better at hiding it than to allow you such free access to observe them.

Perception is not reality and we *are* responsible for our actions even if we decide to act on them by proxy through a government agency.


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## PreggieUBA2C (Mar 20, 2007)

Jwebbal, I find your appeal to the idea of personal responsibility to be contradictory to the views you hold for yourself regarding your role as 'mandated reporter.' Is it that _others_ must take personal responsibility or _you_ will report them without having to take any _personal responsibility_ for your report?


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## offwing (Aug 17, 2006)

Pardon me, but I think that is kind of inappropriate here. if you want to take direct issue with Jwebbal, you should do it in PM or email. Or maybe start a thread about Mandatory Reporting where the issue can be discussed.


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## CaraNicole (Feb 28, 2007)

_momma i am so sorry your having to deal w/*CPS* and *THE SNARK*!!! i myself have a 7mo *ESCAPE* artist...it can be very frustrating but you can get through this i KNOW you are going to find a system that works for you.... great for you for *NOT* letting them in...i do like the idea of a chime on all the doors and do the windows to *just in case*





















_

_your in my thoughts and prayers!_


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## dis (May 21, 2005)

Quote:

The following is the link to the children's aid 'eligibility spectrum' for my province. You may be living with different laws, but I suspect there isn't too much difference from the perspective of the cpws.

http://www.oacas.org/resources/eligi...trum06nov1.pdf

You'll notice that early on in the document, page 5, it lists the levels of abuse on the chart. You'll also notice that because cpws are required to investigate claims, and there is no category for NO ABUSE (!), the best a reported parent can 'score' on the chart is 'not severe' abuse. If you don't think the child would be better off with someone else, why do you call the people whose job it is to find homes for abused children? They don't exist to go to family bbqs, chat up the parents and encourage their good choices in parenting. That's what good friends and good neighbours do.
My mother is a social worker in Ontario, and I actually called her to ask about this - with the forms they use, there is a spot for 'no finding' or 'no abuse'. Those scales in that PDF are only used when abuse is present, to rate the severity.


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## Meg Murry. (Sep 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Belleweather* 
So then, what are you supposed to do, return a few? Do you get a full refund with a receipt or just store credit?

I'm sorry to be flip, but this is so exceedingly unhelpful it amazes me. Yeah, it's nice to say "get more help or change how you're doing things", but it seems to me that unless you're willing to BE more help or have some actual and concrete ideas about what to try next, you're just being nasty to be nasty.

Would it be possible, I wonder, for the OP to hire someone like a neighborhood teenager or a family member to help her during the day? I think it seems clear to me that although she's clearly attempting to respond to the situation of the escape artist kids, their efforts are periodically more successful than hers and she may be overwhelmed and need help. What if she could hire someone to just help her keep an eye on the kids?


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## Aliviasmom (Jul 24, 2006)

Oh, OP, I'm sorry for all the emotional turmoil that CPS brought, and the ADDED turmoil that this thread, inadvertantly, brought about!







: It is so wonderful to be a perfect parent, isn't it?!

I'm sure you are trying your hardest! My child isn't an escape artist, but she is smart as the dickens and I could child proof until the cows came home and she would STILL surprise me with something. (The other day, she brought me the wash bin out of the sink!? I don't know HOW she managed to do that, as her head doesn't even reach the counter, and I don't think standing on the cupboard below would give her enough added height, maybe though....)

What about those plastic slats they put in fences? Like here: http://www.patrician1.com/pvt.htm I've tried to climb those before, and I couldn't get my foot in far enough. PLUS, it will give you some added privacy....

And I agree, I think some sort of chime/bell/alarm system would be smart.

And if feasible...I'd move too.

Good luck!


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## BelovedK (Jun 7, 2005)

This thread has been closed to new posts. The UA states:
*


PHP:


 Do not start a thread to discuss member behavior or statements of members made in other threads or to criticize another discussion on the boards. Do not post to a thread to take direct issue with a member. If you feel a member has posted or behaved inappropriately in a discussion, communicate directly with the member, moderator or administrator privately and refrain from potentially defaming discussion in a thread.[/B]

If anyone has any constructive ideas for the OP, it would be a better idea to PM at this point. Thank you.

*


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