# The Wheel (????)



## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Did you see the banner ad for this?
http://www.better-behavior.com/
What do you think?
I am curious to hear your opinions!
Annette


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## annethcz (Apr 1, 2004)

I just saw this, and was coming here to post this- you beat me to it!

*Why Spank when you can Spin?* Blech!

Apparently, the concept of natural consequences seems lost on the people who created this product.

According to the website, there are consequences for the following infractions:

Quote:

Excessive Arguing

Leaving the Lights On

Not Putting Things Away

A Job Poorly Done

S-t-r-e-t-c-h-i-n-g the Truth

Taking Without Asking

Talking Back

Wheel of Just Desserts
It appears that the last item is a reward spinner.

The product seems to be a system to randomly punish your children for their misdeeds and reward good behaviors. Not what I would call gentle discipline.

ETA: the quote on the front page attributed to Becca seems to equate punishment with discipline. That really turned me off. Too many people use the words synonymously, when disciple and punishment are two seperate concepts (I know, I'm preaching to the choir here)


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## kofduke (Dec 24, 2002)

"In the heat of the moment all I have to do is mention the wheel."

Wow...I'd love to see what some of these "natural" consequences are. Seems very icky to me.


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## achintyasamma (Aug 4, 2004)

What gets me is that the word positive is used so many times on the site. As in "positive parenting". Was this a banner ad here on MDC????

If so can it be removed? I'm off to look at the advertising rules now.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I noticed that it didn't mention any of the consequences or did I miss them. Seems over cmplicated. gimmiky. Like because the consequences are written on the wheel instead of being on a peice of paper or just spoken.

lets say for example your child refuses to cleanhis room. so he spend the wheel and it lands on take out the garbnage for a week. well what in the world will make a child uncooperative with cleaning thier room take out the garbage or not watch TV or whatever.


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## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

*


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

It seems icky to me too but I'm in the middle of some real challenges and am starting to appreciate my parents, who used GD with 8 children but who were also willing to talk to us and implement some strange solutions when things got tough. I feel that there is some less than ideal solutions in our (near) future so I'm feeling more humbled and forgiving of this kind of stuff.

Ideally I think it's a bad idea but there are some components that speak to me. The child and parent talk about the consequences, which is good if they're going to be imposed. And, maybe this would actually alleviate some of the stress if a families really struggling.

I don't know. We had a bad day&#8230;and I feel a touch desperate and at a loss so&#8230;I can sympathize.


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## bikruca (Mar 7, 2004)

i just saw it.. frankly it looks really stupid and like a waste of money...


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

I can not believe this ad is running on the GD forum!!!

Choosing consequences/rewards based on spinning a wheel? How is that related *at all* to the behavior problem?

There are so many better ideas here in the gd forum....I guess I wouldn't mind this banner elsewhere on MDC, but it bothers me here in this particular forum.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I didn't realize until now that this came from an advertisement at MDC. Is this right?

Wow, I'd have to read a little more about it but my first thought is that that's not the greatest idea.

It's not that I don't think it can be used along with GD but I'm not sure it fit's with my ideals of GD or even within GD.

I see it like a patch&#8230;something that doesn't 'exclude' one from being GD but definitely not something that fits within the spectrum, yk?


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

I downloaded the free demo wheel (what can I say, I'm desperate!) and it seemed extremely arbitrary to me. One of the consequences was no talking *for a whole freakin hour!!!!* Much as I would enjoy this, it just doesn't seem right.Also, I don't see how spinning the wheel for a random consequence would possibly get to the root of any problem. Finally, why not just make your own wheel if you really wanted one?

Sunnmama, I don't think banner ads are tailored to any specific forum- it's all over mdc.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

See, when I said I didn't think it was such a bad idea, I thought that the parents and kids decided on the consequences together and then put them on the wheel.

The whole thing seems off to me but&#8230;I'm desperate too. Off to try to post something in GD ~ a big challenge when I just feel like complaining and venting and feeling sorry for myself.


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## Oh the Irony (Dec 14, 2003)

"You might even want to use it on your hubby."

















I think being consistent is extremely important with kids and dogs. Knowing that there are natural consequences is important, but this seems like a lazy person's tool.

I didn't see the consequences they suggest, but the infractions list seems extreme. I forget to turn out lights sometimes, I don't always put things away, and yes, sometimes if I am in a hurry I do things poorly. It happens and I certainly don't need to be punished. The consequence is that my light bill is higher, I can't always find things and I might have to redo something--not the end of the world. Seems like you would be setting kids up for struggling to achieve perfection.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Yep, big fat banner ad right here on MDC...


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## mermommy (Aug 16, 2004)

funny you can't give formula or coupons for it to mothers who need it ( not by choice sometimes) but if you give enough money you can advertise this crap....


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## Electra375 (Oct 2, 2002)

Aside from it running an ad on MDC, what is wrong with teaching children that there are consequences to their choices and actions???

Montessori teaches children that there is a cause and effect for their actions. If my son doesn't set the table, no one in the family has anything to eat with. And we all wait for him to do his part for the family. It only had to happen a couple of times in the beginning.

We need to teach our children to be responsible. And a consequence wheel is certainly better than spanking/ hitting a child or yelling at them. If a natural consequence is not going to present itself for the deed done, then why not a wheel?

I guess I could let him go to school in his PJs b/c he hadn't picked up his laundry for me to wash -- that would be a natural consequence, but I want to spare him the embarrassment. I usually raise my voice and stand there while he picks them up as I'm heading down with the wash. I would so like another alternative to this.

Of course I haven't seen what this manufacture purposes as appropriate consequences, but the idea it workable from my perspective. My web browser has posted the title of the page as "ADHD Child behavior management and positive parenting without spanking." I don't have an ADHD child that I'm aware of, but it doesn't appear that this was intended to be a mainstream marketed item.

Okay I just downloaded the demo virtual version and nothing was appropriate especially for an ADHD kid -- Parents Choice (that's a big help), Clean and Tidy the Garage (may be if your kid is a teen), Go to bed an hour early for a week (get real, the kid will be up an hour earlier to watch cartoons), finish cleaning up your room (well, that is what they were suppose to do in the first place), no talking for an hour, no tv for 2 days (this one is okay and doable), watch the electic meter spin for 30 minutes (get real!!!) ... I've had enough I'm uninstalling the demo -- that was comical.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

They aren't natural or logical consequences- they are arbitrary punishments for parents too lazy to take the time and energy to parent (IMHO)


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Electra375*
Aside from it running an ad on MDC, what is wrong with teaching children that there are consequences to their choices and actions.

IMO there is a HUGE difference in them learning consequences and you threatening the consequence for them. That is what i think this wheel does. Forces you to force a consequence.

And I am so sad at the standards here at MDC lately.


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

annette, i am too slow at the typing thing! great way to put it BTW!!


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## Electra375 (Oct 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *charmarty*
And I am so sad at the standards here at MDC lately.

What's going on here? Please elaborate for those not looking at every forum etc. I'd don't even look at 99% of the ad banners.

I see the spin ad right now -- top even! I do think it is off color by the wording of the ad, but the product itself I have little problem with -- it beats the wooden spoons I know women carry around!!!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I still haven't seen it...


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

That is hokey! I think the way it is being advertised is a crock of crap!

Instead to Spanking....Try Spinning... uke

How about instead of Spinning....Try Speaking with your children!







:


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## fullofgrace (Nov 26, 2002)

All I can picture in my head is Wheel of Fortune, or in this case, Misfortune, so the consequences would be spun at random and in Game Show fashion. Of course, every space on this wheel is Lose a Turn or Bankrupt.







What is the likelyhood that the *one* consequence the spinner randomly selects *truly* has any relation to the *actual* incident???







You know, so our kids actually see a correlation and learn something from the whole scenario/experience?


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## mittendrin (Nov 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Electra375*
Aside from it running an ad on MDC, what is wrong with teaching children that there are consequences to their choices and actions???

Montessori teaches children that there is a cause and effect for their actions. If my son doesn't set the table, no one in the family has anything to eat with. And we all wait for him to do his part for the family. It only had to happen a couple of times in the beginning.

We need to teach our children to be responsible. And a consequence wheel is certainly better than spanking/ hitting a child or yelling at them. If a natural consequence is not going to present itself for the deed done, then why not a wheel?


i'm with you on that. is that so much different than asking dr. sears what he would do in a certain situation?
and, annettemarie, if parents who use the wheel were really THAT lazy, they wouldn't sit there and chose between 64 different stickers, let alone take the time to research, find, and buy a parenting tool. they'd either do nothing or spank.
i wouldn't buy the thing. if my son throws a bowl of spaghetti at the wall i sure am not gonna sit there and ask the wheel if i should make him clean it up or what. but for some parents who do want to find an alternative to what might be the only form of disciplining they know - spanking - i think it'll help them.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mittendrin*
if my son throws a bowl of spaghetti at the wall i sure am not gonna sit there and ask the wheel if i should make him clean it up or what.











That's what the Magic 8 Ball is for.

Okay, seriously, my problem with the Wheel of Misfortune is that it is artificial and arbitrary. Is it child abuse? No. Is it a great approach to discipline? No.
The best discipline stems from being in the moment and choosing the approach that best fits the time and circumstance. Not randomly, but with awareness.

I doubt that boxed discipline tastes any better than boxed mac n cheese.


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## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

While it might be better than spanking, that doesn't mean it has any place here. It looks like a game--"the punishment game."

And I can just see the lovely battles over whether a child would even comply with the instructions given by the wheel. I think it wrong to use early bedtime or household chores as punishment/consequence too. Bedtime=bad thing? Helping family=bad thing? What if the child talks during that hour that it has been forbidden?

This thing is about useless IMO--any parent could come up with arbitrary punishments w/o help. It's trying to create something meaningful and that helps children process and learn from the interaction that is the hard part.


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## heldt123 (Aug 5, 2004)

I just got off the web site and was wondering what you all thought! :LOL It did seem kind of hokey. And almost $20 for a little plastic spin deal?? I like the idea of the reward spin, but spinning for a punnishement doesn't seem like a natural consequence to me. As deeporgarten mentioned, I don't like the idea of helping the family as being a punnishement. It may work for some children, and families, but it seems like the lazy way out for parents that can't think of anything better.


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## sistermama (May 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mittendrin*
if my son throws a bowl of spaghetti at the wall i sure am not gonna sit there and ask the wheel if i should make him clean it up or what.

:LOL 4 posts later and I'm still laughing!

This thing doesn't teach anything! Wow, I can stop spanking my kid now because I have a little wheel to make him spin!!!







Although, maybe these people just found the wrong audience to pitch their produc to. If someone was currently spanking their child, I'd rather have them using this junky thing.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

Aside from it running an ad on MDC, what is wrong with teaching children that there are consequences to their choices and actions???
My dd knows there are consequences for her actions. Each consequence will be related to the misbehavior, not arbitrarily chosen from a wheel.

Today, she was playing with a toy and she kept shoving it in my face while I was nursing the baby. The consequence was the toy got taken away, not that I spun some wheel and then she had to clean the garage or not talk for an hour.

If we want there to be consequences for bad behavior, why don't we just think of some ourselves?


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## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

Thank you for questioning this ad.

I can see your points. This does seem to be arbitrary consequences and not logical ones.

I have asked the administrator to look into this.


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## scoutycat (Oct 12, 2003)

Electra said: "Aside from it running an ad on MDC, what is wrong with teaching children that there are consequences to their choices and actions???
Montessori teaches children that there is a cause and effect for their actions. "

There are always consequences for actions, but in my world very few actions result in spinning a wheel to find out what's going to happen next. It's an escape route for parents that don't want to think, IMO. Not totally evil, but dumb. Consequences should flow from the event, not be contrived, and anything else results in the parent being the 'bad guy' instead of the guide/facilitator they are meant to be. it is our job to make our kids world make more sense, not less, and be easier, not arbitrarily more difficult.

and mittendrin said "is that so much different than asking dr. sears what he would do in a certain situation?"
One would hope that parents use their own judgement and take or leave the advice, rather than flip to page x in the baby book and say, well, you cried 2x tonight therefore we should fo what they say here...'

Really, though, my beef is less with the product itself (which looks ridiculous, but less dangerous than say hotsaucing), but with the 'why spank when you can spin?' slogan and the general attitude presented on the site, which to me suggests that there are few things a parent can do to 'discipline' (read







unish) a child other than spanking, and this is the be all and end all product to allow you to treat your kids with the reapect they deserve and stop hitting them. The language used smacks of ads justifying 'biblical dicipline' of all sorts, and it creeps me out. Definately not the type of thing I expect to see on MDC anywhere.


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## Still_Snarky (Dec 23, 2004)

on mdc...?


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mittendrin*
and, annettemarie, if parents who use the wheel were really THAT lazy, they wouldn't sit there and chose between 64 different stickers, let alone take the time to research, find, and buy a parenting tool. they'd either do nothing or spank.

There are tons of choices between using this wheel and spanking. Frankly, I think using this would be a fairly mindless exercise, at least based on the example I downloaded from their site. Saying that being "proactive" enough to buy the wheel... I don't know- are parents who research, find, and buy a paddle also good parents just by virtue of the fact that they put a little time into their decision? By lazy, I mean not willing to get down and dirty, face-to-face with their kids and figure out the root of any problems and how to fix them. If a family has chronic troubles, they need more than a wheel.

Annette


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## khrisday (Mar 18, 2002)

ownloaded the trial version to see what the consequences were (there are different sets of consequences for different infractions, apparantly) The ones that came up for me were: watching the wheel spin for 30 minutes (that I don't get at all), bathroom duty, and washing the dishes BY HAND (it made the by hand very specific). I don't know what "infraction" these consequences were for, but they don't seem to have acommon thread?


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## Alegria (Jul 21, 2002)

just want to know what the ptb are going to do.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

If you go to Questions and Suggestions you will see that they are working on it


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *khrisday*
ownloaded the trial version to see what the consequences were (there are different sets of consequences for different infractions, apparantly) The ones that came up for me were: watching the wheel spin for 30 minutes (that I don't get at all), bathroom duty, and washing the dishes BY HAND (it made the by hand very specific). I don't know what "infraction" these consequences were for, but they don't seem to have acommon thread?

:LOL Bathroom duty *and* washing dishes by hand (we don't have a dishwasher) are both fun activities in our house that my toddler loves. :LOL

I personally don't like the wheel idea anyway, but I don't see how one wheel is going to work for everyone anyway. Kinda stupid. Both of those "punishements" are things my toddler gets excited to do.


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## morgainesmama (Sep 1, 2004)

I looked at it too. It's actually, "Watching the power meter spin for 30 minutes," I assume in relation to leaving the lights on??? Um, with an older child I would think a faaaar more logical consequence not to mention better use of time is to have them do a money-earning activity for 30 minutes and contribute half toward the power bill.

The whole idea fo it does seem incredibly arbitrary.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Or you could just ask them to turn off the light.

Works for us, anyway.


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## morgainesmama (Sep 1, 2004)

I'm sorry ... big gap in train of thought there, nak. IF you felt something had to be done, AND you felt it warranted a 30 minute punishment (loong time IMO) THEN I would think having your kid sit in front of the meter for 30 min would be one of the stupides things you could think of .... in fact it never would have crossed my mind. I looked at the ad earlier, and curious about it I looked to see what sort of "consequences" and "rewards" it had, so I also downloaded the trial version. The whole thing was incredibly perplexing.

Sorry to leave all the in-between words out.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Oh, I know- I was afraid that would c ome out snarky

I like what someone else said- it's like the discipline magic eight ball


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## sistermama (May 6, 2003)

I was telling my mom and dh about it this morning, and the first thing my mom said was, "oh good, training your kids for vegas!" and my dh reminded me about the line from that movie, Mad Max - "Bust a deal, face the wheel!!!!" Does anyone else remember that? I was really


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## scoutycat (Oct 12, 2003)

quote "Both of those "punishements" are things my toddler gets excited to do."unquote

Using chores as punishment, other than say cleaning up the mess you've made or helping clean up so we can do something else, is just a bad idea. I mean, in a perfet world your kids would help out with chores just as part of the family work; if everyone thinks it's a terrible awful thing that you have to do when you screwed up, no one is going to want to help out! -jen


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## MelissaEvans (Jan 9, 2003)

(How ironic, the ad came for me while I'm responding to this thread.)

I've been reading a lot of Alfie Kohn lately and agree with his statement (and others have said it to) that doing things *to* kids may be easier, but it's a cop out. This wheel doesn't work *with* the child, it just does stuff *to* the child. I'd even question the rewards portion of the wheel.

I think it's just a gimmick to relieve mom of the guilt of creating the punishment - the wheel said to do it, not me! Perhaps that's easier than the proverbial, "You just wait until your father gets home!" At least mom doesn't have to wait.

I agree that chores are horrible punishments; that's what I had to deal with growing up. It took me a loooong time to be able to clean my house becuase I didn't feel like punishing myself.

I wonder what would happen if the kid "accidentally" lost the wheel...


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## Jessviola (Jun 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MelissaEvans*

I wonder what would happen if the kid "accidentally" lost the wheel...


or if it took to long to consult the wheel......









if anyone still wants to see the ad, here's a link

It's very unlike all the other ads I've seen here.


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## hubris (Mar 8, 2003)

I just saw the ad while browsing the diapering forum and had to do a search to see if anybody else had noticed it. I guess so.







I heard about this wheel thing a few days ago and it bugged me a little then, but I never thought I would see an ad for it here, especially not with the tag line "why spank when you can spin?" Ew, don't like that - like annettemarie said, there's a lot between spanking and spinning, and an advertising line like that does a disservice to parents by implying (as I so often see in mainstreamy magazines) that your only choices are to spank, be totally permissive, or (enter your product/method here).

Glad to hear that the ad is being reconsidered.

Like anything, I'm sure there *can* be an appropriate use for this thing. I like that the parent and child can agree on what consequences go on the wheel. It seems like if you have a school-aged child and have had trouble with a particular behavior and nothing else has worked, maybe this would be a good thing to try. Of course, you could make your own at home.

But what bothers me is this quote from their site:

"*No longer* will you have to rack your brain trying to think up appropriate consequences."

Ugh. Why is it that so many people persist in thinking that the mental work done in parenting is a needless, awful chore? Not only does thinking about our parenting benefit our children, but it's good for us, too. The personal growth I have gained through THINKING about what I do as a parent (and related discussions with my husband, other family members, and friends) has been wonderful. I think I'll continue to rack my brain, thanks. Advertising claims like that won't persuade me to use your product.


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## LizD (Feb 22, 2002)

"Every family is different. Different kids mean different behavior. We give you lots of consequences, all on peel and stick paper, in colorful graphics...but if they don't suit your needs, create some of your own. You might want a set for one child and one for another. (You might even want a set for hubby!)"

That last parenthetical phrase says it all, for me. Blech, blech, blech. I don't know where to begin!


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## Itlbokay (Dec 28, 2001)

The creator has joined us..

check out pleased to meet you....

"hello from central british columbia"

juliep is her member name


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

here's what i just read on the site:\

I can't begin to describe what I would have given to have had parents that loved me enough to be "so mean to me" that they disciplined me the way Dr. Phil has obviously been doing with his children. Because then you at least know they love you, are looking out for you, and will always be there for you.

again: WHAT IS THIS DOING HERE? IS ANYONE LISTENING TO US???????


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## sistermama (May 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama ganoush*
here's what i just read on the site:\

I can't begin to describe what I would have given to have had parents that loved me enough to be "so mean to me" that they disciplined me the way Dr. Phil has obviously been doing with his children. Because then you at least know they love you, are looking out for you, and will always be there for you.

again: WHAT IS THIS DOING HERE? IS ANYONE LISTENING TO US???????


That is just HORRIBLE!!!







: Maybe we can ask the mod to move this thread to questions and suggestions? Things seem to get resolved more quickly there.


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

If you go to questions and suggestions you will see that it has been resolved, They are honoring the contract by not renewing it.


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## mama ganoush (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Itlbokay*
The creator has joined us..

check out pleased to meet you....

"hello from central british columbia"

juliep is her member name

i just gave her a warm mdc welcome...


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## User101 (Mar 3, 2002)

Did someone report her intro as basically being an ad?


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## sistermama (May 6, 2003)

Do you think she'll be able to keep the ad in her sig line, if her banner ad isn't being renewed? I would think there are rules about what you can advertise in your sig line, as well...


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## nym (Sep 6, 2003)

I reported it yesterday... it is gone now.. too bad she is from my town!


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

Lame. Hokey. Gimmicky. Perhaps well-meaning but not a good thing.

Some of it is more 'ugh' like the comment about using it for 'hubby.' Ewww. I'm not his mother!

I think they tried to start out with some nice ideas - like children helping identify consequences and agree on family rules - but then it came out totally half-baked.

I'm actually far more disturbed by the link on the links page to "boot camps" for teens. That goes beyond hokey into dangerous and abusive, and I'd be cautious about anything that seems like an endorsement of those places.


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## KellyandKatie (Sep 19, 2004)

I saw that banner up there and I am completely puzzled!! MDC was my safe place for mamas like me, not for mamas that would use that silly thing- - what has MDC got to say about taking it off???? GRRRRRRRRR..... I refer all my newbies to this web page, now I have to protect them from it? grrrrrrrrrr







:


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## simply me (Dec 26, 2004)

I have only seen the banner up top but it looked so ridiculous to me.
what a waste of money.


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## momma2mingbu (Jun 1, 2002)

I can't believe this ad is STILL running today?


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## fullofgrace (Nov 26, 2002)

Cynthia posted in Q&S that they have to honor the paid contract, but they won't be renewing the ad. Not sure how long the contract is for though...


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Slightly









Why would this possibly be so good for ADHD children?

I don't understand that.

And yes, while it is better than physically abusing your child that does not mean it has a place here on MDC.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

In another thread about Cynthia has reported that MDC must honor the contract with the company but the contract will not be renewed. There is something like 35 days left on the contract (I guess I'm violating the user agreement here - mebbe MDC can use one as gentle correction for Violations of User agreement, deliberate posts in the wrong forum, repeated advocating of spanking, etc).

For my part I am going to write to the founder to discuss how misguided she is. Who's got some gentle discipline links? I'm pretty tactful in writing, so I'm not going to slam her or anything. Just offer some alternative ways of thinking about things. She has posted some negative letters on her website, with her own rebuttals - http://www.better-behavior.com/letters.html

my favorite:
"....Punishment and aversive consequences are the source of much anxiety,...
In a culture dominated by quick fixes and zero tolerance attitudes, you are a card -carrying member and could be censored, as well as charged with practicing psychology without a license."


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Itlbokay*
The creator has joined us..

check out pleased to meet you....

"hello from central british columbia"

juliep is her member name

are you sure this is correct? I tried to look it up, but the only juliep seems to be 18 and didn't seem to fit this description.


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## MaggiesMom (May 14, 2003)

Ugh, DD just deleted everything I typed!

Let's just say I decided to download the trial so I could figure this thing out- I STILL don't understand it, and I am no dope by any means.

Anyway, I just spun a few times, and chores kept coming up, but also, "No talking for 1 hour" and "Watch the electric meter spin for 30 minutes." Wow- awful! And I guess I haven't read enough about it because I just don't understand it still....


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## MomInFlux (Oct 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ellien C*
are you sure this is correct? I tried to look it up, but the only juliep seems to be 18 and didn't seem to fit this description.

If you do an advanced search for juliep, you get her member profile, which includes a link to her website. However, her introduction post appears to have disappeared (I did read it, and it did appear to be largely an advertisement for "The Wheel").


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## MaggiesMom (May 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ellien C*
are you sure this is correct? I tried to look it up, but the only juliep seems to be 18 and didn't seem to fit this description.


That is julie*l*p, and she is not the same person.... But easy to miss the l.


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## Momma2LiamandTara (Nov 26, 2003)

I think her psots have been delteld. I went and looked her up in the members list and clicked on find all post and find all threads and came up with none although her profile lists 3 posts. Hmmmm... do you think they asked her to leave?


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