# "soulja boy"



## funkygranolamama (Aug 10, 2005)

Have any of you heard this song?

My dd's friend came over the other day and they looked it up on youtube to let me hear it because they were all excited about it. It was the (somewhat) clean version. I listened to the lyrics: supersoak that ohhhhhhh! superman that ohhhhhhhhhh!

I asked them what the lyrics meant and her friend said they're different dances "the superman" "the supersoak", etc. I said okay that's weird, but okay.

My dh came home from work and I told him about that song and he asked if I knew what that song was about. I told him what the girl said and he said she may THINK that's what it's about, but it's not (he learned about it at work). Substitute all the ohhhhhhh! for ho and that's the regular version of the song. Then he explained what supersoaking and supermaning a ho is and I don't think I can post that here, but it's really bad for preteens running around singing this song and REALLY degrading to women.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a censorship fanatic, but I like to watch what my kids are taking in as far as media goes and this song is a goner for me. Even the clean version ain't so clean now I know what that stuff means.

My dh actually asked me to come post this here so people would be more aware of what kids may be listening to.


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## ktbug (Jul 8, 2006)

The 12-year old that I tutor asked me if I'd heard the song and if I knew what "superman" was ... Oh, did I feel old and out-of-touch.
Then when I found out what it was all about ... I just felt creeped out that 12-year olds are listening to and talking about that kind of thing for recreation.

On new years' eve we went to the town square where they had a kids' karaoke stage set up (among other activities). All these 8-9-10-11 year old kids getting up singing this Soulja Boy song, and London Bridge, by Fergie, and other basically unsavory material. Parents: laughing and taking pictures. Me: rolling my eyes and throwing up a little in my mouth.

These kids today, I swear ...


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

I'm not sure what it means but if its the kind of thing I think it might be I'd not feel comfortable.

I know teens are interested in sex but we can at least encourage them to think of sex in respectful and hopefully loving terms. Not just using the body of another person or degrading them.


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## ktbug (Jul 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~Megan~* 
I'm not sure what it means but if its the kind of thing I think it might be I'd not feel comfortable.

I know teens are interested in sex but we can at least encourage them to think of sex in respectful and hopefully loving terms. Not just using the body of another person or degrading them.

Yeah, agreed, and this is decidedly disrespectful. I wouldn't put it in the same blatantly misogynist category as, say, certain choice material by Limp BIzkit or NWA, but it's gross, silly, and not at all appropriate for a preteen.

I mean, if that's the first introduction you have, as an adolescent, to what adults do in the bedroom, you're going to go through early adulthood with quite a warped sense of boundaries and propriety.

But, on the other hand, what do we do as a society? I know what we do as parents, but I don't see any kind of collective action to take that wouldn't amount to censorship, hysteria arising from a generation gap, or simply giving this stupid song more attention and notoriety than it deserves.


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## funkygranolamama (Aug 10, 2005)

when i heard the unrated version after kids bedtime, it really reminded me of back when i listened to 2 live crew. of course, my parents didn't know i was listening to that and would have freaked if they did.

i have a little more supervision over my dd than they did me. my dd will not be listening to soulja boy anymore.

oh yeah, there is a video on youtube of a ballet class routine to this song. the dance is good, i wish they'd picked a better song to put it with.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

My Dd loves the song, and maybe more importantly the dance to the song. It's extremely popular right now. Just check Youtube for about 8,000 different versions.









We talk about lyrics a lot in our family and this song is no exception. My Dd is aware that many songs she finds catchy have lyrics that talk about things she personally may not value, but in many cases she can seperate the lyrics from enjoying the sound or beat of a song. She doesn't think of/ refer to women as "ho's" and she wouldn't think too highly of someone who did, but none of that is necessary to enjoy the song. For example, I really like "Soldier" by Destiny's Child. I find the lyrics a bit silly, but the song overall always has caught my attention and made me feel happy or upbeat. That's a good thing right? Hearing lyrics doesn't mean we have to agree with what they are talking about.

Everyone has their own limits of course, and they are likely going to be different for everyone. We don't censor media, but we do talk about it a lot. It's an interesting subject.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funkygranolamama* 
when i heard the unrated version after kids bedtime, it really reminded me of back when i listened to 2 live crew. of course, my parents didn't know i was listening to that and would have freaked if they did..


OMG, I almost forgot about 2 Live Crew! Do you remember the controversy over them getting banned, protests, courtroom stuff? I wasn't a fan of them (found them tacky and the sound really brash) but I was totally on their side that whole mess.


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## LotusBirthMama (Jun 25, 2005)

i play this video for ds2 and he goes nuts bouncing up and down...


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## Jenlaana (Oct 28, 2005)

personally I'm with unschoolnma on this one. I don't censor my son's music at all, but instead we talk about the lyrics. I'm a bit pickier about video games and movies, but for me, music is something you can enjoy without agreeing with what is said to a point where I Feel its worth letting it go.

My son is going to be exposed to these things anyways and I would rather he understand it and make the choice for himself if he wants to listen to it, with a good foundation of knowledge about what it is and what it means. So far that philosophy has worked well. My son is a pain in the butt at times, but he has a great foundation of values about this sort of thing.


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## fek&fuzz (Jun 19, 2005)

i just think back to when I was little and dancing around to Grease Lightening and then later I found out the lyrics said "she's a real pussy wagon" and "chicks'll cream". It just went over my head back then.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fek&fuzz* 
i just think back to when I was little and dancing around to Grease Lightening and then later I found out the lyrics said "she's a real pussy wagon" and "chicks'll cream". It just went over my head back then.









I loved that song!


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## funkygranolamama (Aug 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LotusBirthMama* 
i play this video for ds2 and he goes nuts bouncing up and down...

THAT'S the one I'm talking about! Yes, I'm a sucker for good choreography and that's a great dance!

What I'm wondering is those of you who talk to your kids about the meaning of the lyrics with your kids: Do you explain to them what supersoaking and supermanning a ho means, literally? I don't know how old your kids are, but I just don't feel right telling my 10 yo the meaning of that.


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fek&fuzz* 
i just think back to when I was little and dancing around to Grease Lightening and then later I found out the lyrics said "she's a real pussy wagon" and "chicks'll cream". It just went over my head back then.


this is exactly what i was thinking


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## Jenlaana (Oct 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funkygranolamama* 
What I'm wondering is those of you who talk to your kids about the meaning of the lyrics with your kids: Do you explain to them what supersoaking and supermanning a ho means, literally? I don't know how old your kids are, but I just don't feel right telling my 10 yo the meaning of that.

No, I dont explain anything graphically. I would, for example, refer to those as a slang references to sexual acts, and I've talked about what "ho" means to my son before, in regards to it being a derrogatory way of referring to someone who has sex indiscriminantly.

my spelling is horrific here but you get my point


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jenlaana* 
No, I dont explain anything graphically. I would, for example, refer to those as a slang references to sexual acts

I agree with this. I also don't offer information or explanations unless asked.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funkygranolamama* 
THAT'S the one I'm talking about! Yes, I'm a sucker for good choreography and that's a great dance!

What I'm wondering is those of you who talk to your kids about the meaning of the lyrics with your kids: Do you explain to them what supersoaking and supermanning a ho means, literally? I don't know how old your kids are, but I just don't feel right telling my 10 yo the meaning of that.

Well, at that age my kids already had quite a bit of info about sex so it might not have been an issue. I'd have just said something about how it's slang for sexual activities, and then we could have gone on from there.

In this case with this song Dd was the one who explained (the lyrics) it to me!







_"Check this out mom... did you know he that he actually says...."_


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I caught a little bit of VH1s 100 Best Songs of the 80s last night. Anyone else see that? Def Leppard's _Poor Some Sugar on Me_. If that isn't sexual innuendo, I don't know what is. I did know the song was about sex when I was a teen and listening to it but I'm not sure if I knew exactly what it all meant. Anyway, I think I turned out all right in spite of listening to that dirty, filthy rock and roll music.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
I caught a little bit of VH1s 100 Best Songs of the 80s last night. Anyone else see that? Def Leppard's _Poor Some Sugar on Me_. If that isn't sexual innuendo, I don't know what is. I did know the song was about sex when I was a teen and listening to it but I'm not sure if I knew exactly what it all meant. Anyway, I think I turned out all right in spite of listening to that dirty, filthy rock and roll music.









I don't have a problem with sexual inuendo or occasional profanity, but I DO have a problem when sex is presented in a dirty, disrespectful way. A lot of these songs are about rape, calling girls/woman Ho's and worse etc. "Pour some sugar on me" is sexy but not dirty KWIM?


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## `guest` (Nov 20, 2001)

I was into the underground rap scene in the mid 80s and it was pretty bad. Drugs, sex, you name it. I thought all the lyrics were cool. I really liked Prince...he was nasty. I think kids are naturally attracted to this type of stuff, but you just have to trust that what you model at home and have taught them will (hopefully) override external influences. My 19 yr old is extremely respectful of women and listens to some stuff I don't really like now I am an old fuddy dud. he sees it as artistic expression.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SMUM* 
I was into the underground rap scene in the mid 80s and it was pretty bad. Drugs, sex, you name it. I thought all the lyrics were cool. I really liked Prince...he was nasty. I think kids are naturally attracted to this type of stuff, but you just have to trust that what you model at home and have taught them will (hopefully) override external influences. My 19 yr old is extremely respectful of women and listens to some stuff I don't really like now I am an old fuddy dud. he sees it as artistic expression.

Yep, that's my point. We don't give teens enough credit for being able to separate music, art, fantasy, video games, whatever, from real life. I watched Tom & Jerry when I was a very young child. It never even crossed my mind that it was okay or harmless to smash someone over the head with a frying pan. If we're open and honest with our teens and children and talk to them about our values and model what we consider decent or appropriate behavior, they'll get it. It's counterproductive to freak out over every latest shocking thing that comes out or becomes popular.


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## smillerhouse (Aug 5, 2006)

I agree with a lot of what has been said. A major objection I have is the obectification of women and the general glorification with being a passive victim and a rich celebrity without the day to day reality of working.
I try not to react while giving my teens many op to live a REAL life. To me, any screen:music,video,computer, TV is largely fansty. This is not bad, if it is in balnce.
Like, today my daugther, nearly 15 has voice lessons. This weekend she has a volleyball tournament. She will help with shopping. When we are out of town we will go to Whole Foods , a history center and a deli like they do not have around here. She is going to a club Sunday geared to the teen indie scene.
I want her to live and particpate in all kinds of life. The life depicted on popular culture is one small aspect and while intruiging, I feel it needs to be balnced with man
y other sorts of living.

I really try to avoid power struggles plus see that she loves the beat,etc.

Sallie


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## Eben'sMama (Jun 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
I caught a little bit of VH1s 100 Best Songs of the 80s last night. Anyone else see that? Def Leppard's _Poor Some Sugar on Me_. If that isn't sexual innuendo, I don't know what is. I did know the song was about sex when I was a teen and listening to it but I'm not sure if I knew exactly what it all meant. Anyway, I think I turned out all right in spite of listening to that dirty, filthy rock and roll music.









That's so funny! When DH and I first started seeing each other, one day while we were in the car and that song came on the radio. He said, "You know, it never occurred to me before, I don't think this song is actually about sugar."


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## stayinghome (Jul 4, 2002)

Grease Lightening had those lyrics??!! I totally missed that too. And the sugar song- "i'm hot sticky sweet from my head to my feet..." yeah, that's sexual in nature.

I don't have too many issues with lyrics and my teen. Now i will ask her to turn off the videos or music if her younger sisters are around. But i think my teen is old enough to handle it.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
Yep, that's my point. We don't give teens enough credit for being able to separate music, art, fantasy, video games, whatever, from real life. I watched Tom & Jerry when I was a very young child. It never even crossed my mind that it was okay or harmless to smash someone over the head with a frying pan. If we're open and honest with our teens and children and talk to them about our values and model what we consider decent or appropriate behavior, they'll get it.









This is our approach.


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## chiromamma (Feb 24, 2003)

OK I will expose just how old and in the way I am. I'm pretty sure I know what supersoak means but can someone come out and tell me what superman means? I learned that dance and everything.


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## keriberry (May 27, 2007)

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=superman


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## funkygranolamama (Aug 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *keriberry* 
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=superman

so degrading...


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## lindberg99 (Apr 23, 2003)

The video to this song seems pretty innocuous to me though and not degrading to anyone. It just seems to be people dancing. Maybe he just puts in the superman and supersoak stuff to draw more attention to the song because I'm betting people are talking about it a lot more than if it was "tamer" lyrics. And for kids, I bet that gives it the lure of the forbidden.


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## funkygranolamama (Aug 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lindberg99* 
The video to this song seems pretty innocuous to me though and not degrading to anyone. It just seems to be people dancing. Maybe he just puts in the superman and supersoak stuff to draw more attention to the song because I'm betting people are talking about it a lot more than if it was "tamer" lyrics. And for kids, I bet that gives it the lure of the forbidden.

yeah probably. my dd and her friend thought they were just different dances, like doing the "superman" the same way someone would do the "cabbage patch" (man I'm old). I haven't seen the video. Maybe I'll youtube it in a bit. I wasn't bothered by the song at all until I heard what the meaning of those words were. It probably affects me a little differently being an abuse victim, too.
It's triggering for me and blows my mind that people would be joyfully dancing to something like that.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

In one article he denies that was what it meant and was trying to get people to look at his new song. It could have been a lie but at the same time he is 17ish and it could have been something someone else wrote and he didn't know what it meant.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Dd loved that song, loved the dance. I checked out the lyrics, we had a talk about them, and I left it up to her. I haven't seen her play it or dance to it since. But it was her choice.


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## lindberg99 (Apr 23, 2003)

If you really want to hear the words, watch this video of a guy reading the lyrics.


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## chiromamma (Feb 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *keriberry* 
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=superman

Who thinks up this stuff? So weird to have a term for such a ridiculous act.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Ahh slang is such a bizarre thing, isn't it?
















Dd and I just talked about this as I was reading it actually. She read the definition ages ago and thought it was really gross and disrespectful. She think's it's interesting that on his Wiki page it says that he's interested in avoiding the "negative and violent themes" that he so often sees in rap music. Dd said _"Okay, so calling women 'ho's' is what exactly?"_

She's still pretty good at the dance though.


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## kerikadi (Nov 22, 2001)

I don't think kids pay much attention to the lyrics. Most of them don't know the words let alone what they mean.

I know as an adult I look back at some of the music I listened to and am surprised they played it on the radio. Little Red Corvette anyone?


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I don't know, as someone who sang the lyrics to afternoon delight as little kid along with tons of other sexually referenced songs I don't see the big deal. As is clear from your post they don't get the reference anyway. Just like how at 10 or whatever I was clueless what afternoon delight was


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## funkygranolamama (Aug 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
I don't know, as someone who sang the lyrics to afternoon delight as little kid along with tons of other sexually referenced songs I don't see the big deal. As is clear from your post they don't get the reference anyway. Just like how at 10 or whatever I was clueless what afternoon delight was









true


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
I don't know, as someone who sang the lyrics to afternoon delight as little kid along with tons of other sexually referenced songs I don't see the big deal. As is clear from your post they don't get the reference anyway. Just like how at 10 or whatever I was clueless what afternoon delight was









Afternoon delight isn't about doing things to a "Ho" while she's asleep is it?


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## lindberg99 (Apr 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moondiapers* 
Afternoon delight isn't about doing things to a "Ho" while she's asleep is it?

Yeah, I think there's a big difference about some guy singing how he and his partner are going to have some "afternoon delight" (which really could be anything from hugging to sex, depending on how you think right?) and some 17 yo singing about how he's going to superman or supersoak his "ho."

My DD is 9 and not into this music at all but if she ever does get into it, I'm going to take the approach of some of the previous posters and talk about it with her but then let her decide if she wants to listen to it or not.

What is this guy's other music like? I've only heard "Soulja Girl", which doesn't seem bad to me, of course I've never really listened that closely to the lyrics.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Well it was an example, I could probably dig up something more offensive to you if I wanted. Doesn't change the fact that if they don't understand the slang and what the reference is then it doesn't matter TO ME.


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## fek&fuzz (Jun 19, 2005)

I also remember my little sister playing her Spinal Tap tape in the car, and the line "I wanna sink you with my pink torpedo" came on. My mom was like "Um, girls, do you know what that means?" I did, my sister didn't, but neither of us cared, we just liked the song. It didn't make us think about sex or anything.

Also, there was a Cosby Show episode where the youngest, Rudy, was about 9 or 10 maybe, and listening to her walkman singing "I wanna do it all night, yeah do it all night". Her dad asked what the song was about, what they were going to "do" all night. Her reply: "Homework".


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

Not sure what I think, having also grown up in the 80s happily bopping along to Madonna in my room.

This article on sexual harassment of girls in high school seems to draw some links (at least symptomatic, if not causative) to degrading tunes:

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/297971


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## MamaLisa1 (Mar 9, 2004)

I think most of the time, my kids are just "rockin'-out" to the song itself, and not necessarily soaking in the entire meaning of the lyrics. There are certain things I don't like, like devil worshipping type, screamo songs, but unless there are a ton of curse words, I try and let them be teens for the most part. I know there were some awfully dirty song lyrics back in my day too!


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## MamaLisa1 (Mar 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fek&fuzz* 

Also, there was a Cosby Show episode where the youngest, Rudy, was about 9 or 10 maybe, and listening to her walkman singing "I wanna do it all night, yeah do it all night". Her dad asked what the song was about, what they were going to "do" all night. Her reply: "Homework".










I love how much funnier that show is to me now than it was when it aired originally! I really get a lot of of a lot of those shows!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I skimmed that article. I guess maybe the songs give boys new ways of expressing the kind of stuff but the sexual harassment isn't new. I can remember being sexually harassed by boys at school as far back as the 5th grade. I don't know anyone who had ever heard of this superman thing back then. The ideas behind the lyrics, though, aren't new and I think censoring the music won't get at the root of the problem. Again, I think it goes back to open communication and respect with your child. If they have that, this other stuff won't influence them as much.


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## funkygranolamama (Aug 10, 2005)

I think the song will cause problems with young men who want to emulate the lyrics, and may cause an increase of forced sexual acts on young girls. i know these type of lyrics have always been around, but it seems like alot of the sexual lyrics of the past were not about _forced_ sexual acts.


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## funkygranolamama (Aug 10, 2005)

Whoa, I just went back to read that article. Do people think sexual harrassment should just be shooed off and ignored? People say the sexual harrassment has always been there, and that makes it sound like nothing should be done about it. These girls need to be taken more seriously when reports are made. Surely there are witnesses to alot of it. This needs to be taken care of not only for the girls experiencing it, but also to let the guys who do it know that it ain't gonna work, not in high school and not in the real world.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funkygranolamama* 
Whoa, I just went back to read that article. Do people think sexual harrassment should just be shooed off and ignored? People say the sexual harrassment has always been there, and that makes it sound like nothing should be done about it. These girls need to be taken more seriously when reports are made. Surely there are witnesses to alot of it. This needs to be taken care of not only for the girls experiencing it, but also to let the guys who do it know that it ain't gonna work, not in high school and not in the real world.

ITA. I wish I had known that what I was experiencing when I was younger was sexual harassment. That wasn't even in my vocabulary then. I never knew it was something to complain about it. It was just normal. I used to wear my backpack as low as possible on my back to cover up my butt so that the boys couldn't grab it. It was always a certain 3 or 4 boys, though, not all the boys in school.

I certainly did not mean to imply that it should be ignored. I think that the focus needs to be taken off the media and put on the behavior. I think that there will always be some people who will think that type of behavior is ok or funny and there will always be some parents who actually encourage it. What we need to do is show teenagers that we think they are thinking, capable people who can come to their own conclusions about these types of things rather than having either us or the songs or celebrities or whoever dictate how they should behave or what they should think.


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## frontierpsych (Jun 11, 2006)

Considering that as a teen (okay, I'm only 21) I listened to ICP, Twizted and stuff of that nature (lyrics WAY worse than anything Soulja Boy could come up with-- and blatantly obvious on top of that) I definitely think upbringing has more to do with what we believe than the music we are exposed to. Granted, I have a sick sense of humor, so I can kind of laugh off the obscenities because I don't actually think that way or surround myself with people that do.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

I have to admit that the real definitions of 'superman' and 'supersoak' were more innocuous than what I'd been imagining.

Basically they are a disrespectful ejaculation act on a woman.

I thought 'supersoak dat ho' meant gloating over prostituting out a female sex worker to the point of physical extremes. I know this really happens to young girls whose abusive childhoods have left them incapable of acting in their own protection.

That just made me very, very sad.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

My main problem with it is that I don't want my family's money going to support this crap. Anti woman isn't any worse or any better than racist!!! I wouldn't pay to support racist music, and I won't pay to support music that is disrespectful towards women. We vote with our dollars.


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## BeeandOwlsMum (Jul 11, 2002)

I remember the *giant* flap about heavy metal when I was a kid. Giant...huge, burning tapes, parental coalitions. Because clearly Ozzy was going to make us all cult following social drop-outs, or convince us to kill ourselves and others.

What I remember thinking then was that the rise in teen suicide was a societal problem, and the music was simply echoing what was *already* going on. That whole art imitates life thing.

To me, this song is the same thing. The disrespectful treatment of women is already there, the young men are seeing examples of it around them, before they ever get to this song.

My dd is almost 2. So I have long way to go before I have to worry about this. BUt I think that I will do much as my mom did. She didn't censor anything I read or listened to. If I had questions, I asked. Did I learn a bit more about something than my peers, yes. But I was also reading Stephen King in 5th grade.









Personally, I don't think it is a very good song...but it isn't my style.







I am sure there are people who think Ani DiFranco stinks and wouldn't let their kid listen to her too.


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## funkygranolamama (Aug 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frontierpsych* 
Considering that as a teen (okay, I'm only 21) I listened to ICP, Twizted and stuff of that nature (lyrics WAY worse than anything Soulja Boy could come up with-- and blatantly obvious on top of that) I definitely think upbringing has more to do with what we believe than the music we are exposed to. Granted, I have a sick sense of humor, so I can kind of laugh off the obscenities because I don't actually think that way or surround myself with people that do.

right on, and we CAN control the upbringing in our own homes, but what about the kids who don't have that luxury? they may grow up in homes where there is already disrespect toward the women in their household and then hear this song as a confirmation that that's the way women should be treated. i know you can't control and raise other peoples kids, but i sure wish musicians, especially those targeting kids this age, would take social responsibility for their lyrics and at least make a statement or something saying that they don't think women should be treated in the way their lyrics describe.

right on, again, about voting with our dollars. that's another reason i want parents informed about what this song means.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funkygranolamama* 
I think the song will cause problems with young men who want to emulate the lyrics, and may cause an increase of forced sexual acts on young girls. i know these type of lyrics have always been around, but it seems like alot of the sexual lyrics of the past were not about _forced_ sexual acts.

Do you really think that kids emulate song lyrics? Seriously?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AdinaL* 
I remember the *giant* flap about heavy metal when I was a kid. Giant...huge, burning tapes, parental coalitions. Because clearly Ozzy was going to make us all cult following social drop-outs, or convince us to kill ourselves and others.

What I remember thinking then was that the rise in teen suicide was a societal problem, and the music was simply echoing what was *already* going on. That whole art imitates life thing.

To me, this song is the same thing. The disrespectful treatment of women is already there, the young men are seeing examples of it around them, before they ever get to this song.


ITA, and boy yes do I remember the whole Satanic Music OMGWTF freak out that parents had ( well not my parents







)


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
I think that the focus needs to be taken off the media and put on the behavior. I think that there will always be some people who will think that type of behavior is ok or funny and there will always be some parents who actually encourage it. What we need to do is show teenagers that we think they are thinking, capable people who can come to their own conclusions about these types of things rather than having either us or the songs or celebrities or whoever dictate how they should behave or what they should think.

 I absolutely agree with this. When we start talking about song meanings, real world behavior, and etc kids are quite capable of understanding that they have decisions to make about their personal behavior. It's about not letting song lyrics, movie characters, or any other thing make your decisions for you.


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## funkygranolamama (Aug 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
Do you really think that kids emulate song lyrics? Seriously?

ITA, and boy yes do I remember the whole Satanic Music OMGWTF freak out that parents had ( well not my parents







)

i don't think ALL kids emulate song lyrics. I'm not saying there's going to be an outbreak of supermanning and supersoaking hos (as they claimed suicide/satanic music). there are kids that use media as their source for standards, and as i said before, i just think it's so socially unresponsible to have these lyrics without some type of disclaimer to say that women should be be treated respectfully. of course, that wouldn't be "hard" enough. don't these guys have moms and sisters??? i guess if they do they're probably so freaking rich right now that they don't care what the effects of their actions may be.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funkygranolamama* 
don't these guys have moms and sisters??? i guess if they do they're probably so freaking rich right now that they don't care what the effects of their actions may be.

I think you hit that one on the head.


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## BeeandOwlsMum (Jul 11, 2002)

I think that the kids who use the media to set their standards, probably have parents who do the same thing. If parents don't see celebs/media as role models and ideals, then the kids aren't going to care either.

The whole idolizing celebs thing is fairly new. I really don't remember ever caring when I was a kid/teen. The first movie star I remember actively cataloging was Patrick Swayze.







And he was the only one for a long time. I got Seventeen magazine in the mail, stopped my subscription when it was all about celebs and felt too young for me (long before I was 17.), but I don't remember this kind of hype. Maybe it was cause I grew up in Colorado.







I don't know.


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## funkygranolamama (Aug 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AdinaL* 
I think that the kids who use the media to set their standards, probably have parents who do the same thing. If parents don't see celebs/media as role models and ideals, then the kids aren't going to care either.

The whole idolizing celebs thing is fairly new. I really don't remember ever caring when I was a kid/teen. The first movie star I remember actively cataloging was Patrick Swayze.







And he was the only one for a long time. I got Seventeen magazine in the mail, stopped my subscription when it was all about celebs and felt too young for me (long before I was 17.), but I don't remember this kind of hype. Maybe it was cause I grew up in Colorado.







I don't know.

yeah media has totally taken over many young kids. i didn't care much either. i think my first obsession was ralph macchio, then swayze...

i wish our schools would give classes in media literacy for those who don't get it at home. these poor kids who think media is the real world won't know what to do when they get out on their own. i can remember being little and thinking the world would be like blossom or clarissa explains it all, and when it wasn't i was a little surprised. being "different" in my era wasn't 'cool' and nothing at all like clarissa or blossom.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

okay, My 19 year old sister who is very much into music videos, the latest everything says that you all are reading too much into the lyrics. That it is indeed about a dance not an actual hoe(ahem girl). That up in this hoe doesn't refer to a girl but more like up in this place or something. She just laughed when I asked her about it. I had to get her to translate some things for em ,lol like I had no idea bapes were shoes. I always thought he meant babes like girls. Anyway she says it's funny cause most people over 25 think this way but most under 20 have no idea what we're talking about, I think she's calling me old.







: She says he does have some dirty songs though but that's not one of them. I didn't ask her about each lyrical sentence though so she could just be in denial.


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## funkygranolamama (Aug 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeca* 
okay, My 19 year old sister who is very much into music videos, the latest everything says that you all are reading too much into the lyrics. That it is indeed about a dance not an actual hoe(ahem girl). That up in this hoe doesn't refer to a girl but more like up in this place or something. She just laughed when I asked her about it. I had to get her to translate some things for em ,lol like I had no idea bapes were shoes. I always thought he meant babes like girls. Anyway she says it's funny cause most peopel pver 25 think this way but most under 20 have no idea what we're talking about, I think she's calling me old.







: She says he does have some dirty songs though but that's not one of them.

someone posted a link to what the lyrics mean on the second page i think. urban dictionary or something like that. go read it. it's definately not a dance (although i know there's a really awesome dance that goes with it). and it definately is ho. maybe not in the first line "up in da ho". i can see how that may mean house. but i can tell you they aren't talking about supermanning a house.


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

what exactly is supermanning anyway?


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## funkygranolamama (Aug 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeca* 







what exactly is supermanning anyway?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=superman


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## 425lisamarie (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funkygranolamama* 
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=superman

Oh. MY. I wanna barf


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## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

If it's so easy to separate the "good music" from the terribly damaging words... well, it isn't really. It just isn't.

If the message was totally racist, racist in the most heinous way like the superdork's message is misogynistic (woman HATING), would anyone make a case for separating the "good music" from the racist message?

I think not.

We shouldn't buy it; we should tell radio stations we don't want to hear it. We should communicate to the artist that we'd love to listen to his music, and dance to his music, and we'll buy his music, but he needs to go to Misogynist Rehab. Check-in at my garage door. First exercise is to be blindfolded; disoriented, some oinking pigs soundtrack, and then get a synthetic (orange juice in a squirt bottle) superman treatment. A little "do unto others" review lesson.

VF


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## JamieCatheryn (Dec 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viewfinder* 
If the message was totally racist, racist in the most heinous way like the superdork's message is misogynistic (woman HATING), would anyone make a case for separating the "good music" from the racist message?

Sweet Home Alabama has some subtle rascist digs that are meant to be silly and lighthearted (the messages in response to Neil Young). I'll bet there are other songs with similar.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viewfinder* 
If it's so easy to separate the "good music" from the terribly damaging words... well, it isn't really. It just isn't.

I assume you mean for you it's not so easy? It is easy or at least doable for others.









Quote:

If the message was totally racist, racist in the most heinous way like the superdork's message is misogynistic (woman HATING), would anyone make a case for separating the "good music" from the racist message?
There are many songs, some of them quite old, that have racism (often subtle) tones woven in the lyrics. Everyone has their own limit as to what they feel comfortable listening to and what they feel they should pass on.


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## Stinkerbell (Aug 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
My Dd loves the song, and maybe more importantly the dance to the song. It's extremely popular right now. Just check Youtube for about 8,000 different versions.









We talk about lyrics a lot in our family and this song is no exception. My Dd is aware that many songs she finds catchy have lyrics that talk about things she personally may not value, but in many cases she can seperate the lyrics from enjoying the sound or beat of a song. She doesn't think of/ refer to women as "ho's" and she wouldn't think too highly of someone who did, but none of that is necessary to enjoy the song. For example, I really like "Soldier" by Destiny's Child. I find the lyrics a bit silly, but the song overall always has caught my attention and made me feel happy or upbeat. That's a good thing right? Hearing lyrics doesn't mean we have to agree with what they are talking about.

Everyone has their own limits of course, and they are likely going to be different for everyone. We don't censor media, but we do talk about it a lot. It's an interesting subject.









I'm on the same page as you with this.

Madonna, Public Enemy, all the hot bands when I was that age were not too much different, in essence. parents freaked out but I never listened much to messages in the songs. I knew lyrics, usually knew what it meant, but I was not absorbing direction from them.

We talk a lot about it in our house, too. And I did draw the line at Eminem talking about killing his ex wife and stuff. But what I said was, "it makes me feel v uncomfortable to listen to that" and if they wanted to listen to it, they did it out of earshot of me.

I do want to applaude you for even paying attention, OP. So many parents just are not even aware. We cant make informed decisions about our kids' media influences if we dont know about them.


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## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
I assume you mean for you it's not so easy? It is easy or at least doable for others.









There are many songs, some of them quite old, that have racism (often subtle) tones woven in the lyrics. Everyone has their own limit as to what they feel comfortable listening to and what they feel they should pass on.


Yes, UnschoolnMa, I do mean that for me, it is not easy, it's not really doable. Not that I need to have those artists hunted down and silenced, but I am very sensitive to how this type of "art" plays into the big picture of our society, and there's a whole political discussion that hinges on beliefs about people's natures, and all kinds of factors.

That for you it is easy is clearly a source of some pride for you, so I guess all I can say is congratulations.

Some old songs are racist... yes, well, that's the point. OLD songs, not new songs. OLD songs that reflect old, "damaging" beliefs people held/hold that negatively affect whole segments of, and in fact, ALL of society.

VF, Director,
Misogynist Rehab


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viewfinder* 

That for you it is easy is clearly a source of some pride for you, so I guess all I can say is congratulations.

Wow. I am sensing a bit of unnecessary snark here, maybe?

I am not trying to brag about anything if that's what you are implying. I just meant that tastes in music, just as in any other kind of art, are going to vary widely from person to person and that I believe our teens are capable of examining lyrics and their meanings and enjoy a song for a variety of reasons. (Maybe lyrics, maybe the beat, maybe the interesting arrangement, etc.)








:


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
Def Leppard's _Pour Some Sugar on Me_. If that isn't sexual innuendo, I don't know what is. I did know the song was about sex when I was a teen and listening to it but I'm not sure if I knew exactly what it all meant. Anyway, I think I turned out all right in spite of listening to that dirty, filthy rock and roll music.









Me too! And before I listened to Pour Some Sugar on Me, my parents played songs about prostitutes by Donna Summer, and songs about drugs by a variety of bands. Cocaine was one of my favorite songs when I was a teen, and I've never so much as smoked a cigarette.

It isn't always about the lyrics. I think many of them go right over the heads of the listener.

I often buy my dd1 (now 11) the Now That's What I Call Music cds, or the Grammy Nominations annual cd as birthday or Xmas gifts. I think Soulja Boy was on one she just got for Xmas. I wouldn't take it away.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Oh man, talk about a trip down memory lane! _Pour Some Sugar On Me_ is still one of my fave DL songs.


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## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
Wow. I am sensing a bit of unnecessary snark here, maybe?

I am not trying to brag about anything if that's what you are implying. I just meant that tastes in music, just as in any other kind of art, are going to vary widely from person to person and that I believe our teens are capable of examining lyrics and their meanings and enjoy a song for a variety of reasons. (Maybe lyrics, maybe the beat, maybe the interesting arrangement, etc.)








:

Tastes in the levels of necessary snark vary widely, UnschoolnMa. (where's the "throws her head back and laughs" smiley?)

I don't think we're talking about a matter simply of tastes in music. I think it's much bigger than that, and it has been explained here already by others who seem to feel similarly to me.

Misogyny is a huge, huge problem in society. I wish there was a mechanism with which I could silence musical artists whose lyrics degrade women, objectify women, trivialize women. I believe it is damaging to be disseminated... because it goes into children's ears, children's hearts, children's maps of the world. And I believe it is delusional to think that children have the capability to deal with this stuff. If children and teenagers are so sophisticated, so discerning, why don't they just go out on their own? What do they need parents for?

They're NOT so sophisticated, they're NOT so rock solid sure of themselves as you think, they're NOT so imbued with your good values that they virtually ARE you.

Can you remember the FIRST time your little daughter actually heard the real words of some great fun, misogynistic rap song, and how she reacted to it? I can. It HURT her. Her face fell, like it was PERSONAL. She looked up at me, her eyes searching for some explanation. "Why is he saying that about her?" (eminem's ode to wife Kim).

And you can talk all you want to her about why, and educate her for the rest of her life that "it's those other people over there...," and it's not going to explain away that personal hurt. It HURTS to be debased because of the color of your skin; it HURTS to be debased because of your gender. We pretty much shut the racist stuff down, and moreso every day. I'd like to shut down the misogynistic stuff.

VF


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## forthebest (Jun 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viewfinder* 

Misogyny is a huge, huge problem in society. I wish there was a mechanism with which I could silence musical artists whose lyrics degrade women, objectify women, trivialize women. I believe it is damaging to be disseminated... because it goes into children's ears, children's hearts, children's maps of the world. And I believe it is delusional to think that children have the capability to deal with this stuff. If children and teenagers are so sophisticated, so discerning, why don't they just go out on their own? What do they need parents for?

They're NOT so sophisticated, they're NOT so rock solid sure of themselves as you think, they're NOT so imbued with your good values that they virtually ARE you.

Can you remember the FIRST time your little daughter actually heard the real words of some great fun, misogynistic rap song, and how she reacted to it? I can. It HURT her. Her face fell, like it was PERSONAL. She looked up at me, her eyes searching for some explanation. "Why is he saying that about her?" (eminem's ode to wife Kim).

And you can talk all you want to her about why, and educate her for the rest of her life that "it's those other people over there...," and it's not going to explain away that personal hurt. It HURTS to be debased because of the color of your skin; it HURTS to be debased because of your gender. We pretty much shut the racist stuff down, and moreso every day. I'd like to shut down the misogynistic stuff.

VF











We all love music in our home but none of us listen to mysoginistic garbage like that, good beat or not. Music is for lovers not haters. I've listened to a lot of angsty music over the years and the lyrical content is important to real music fans not just jumping on the bandwagon cos everyone else is. My dd felt the same way when she heard her first round of women-hating 'music', it is personal. My ds also hates mysoginistic crap like this cos he has sisters and loves them. Censorship is such a stupid concept, I prefer enlightenment cos if we just do the nodding dog thing towards all these erm 'artists' we may as well be collaborating with sexism which I and millions of other women experience every day, no-one seems to take it seriously enough cos no-one cares or maybe they think men have a right to treat women and girls like this. I don't hear songs about men being treated like waste-products, and all the little kiddies jiving about to it cos it's got a good beat. The real reason a lot of males are all 'lovin it' is cos it allows them free reign to express their super-imposed ( by society)mysoginy, it's not just their trousers these guys need to keep zipped. If men weren't so screwed up sexually there would be lots better music around and plenty of male bands have managed fine so far. I particularly like male bands who sing about sexism towards women and their disgust thereof, about the oppresive sexuality we are bombarded with daily. To me they are real men and real musicians. Artistic liscence? Whats it gonna be next, pedo's getting in on the act? 'my girl lollipop', there is a constant barrage of 'sexual' innuendo everywhere we go, nothing to do with sensuality and everything to do with sex as a product.How desensitized are we becoming?


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

"Shutting down" racist music did not get rid of racism. Racism is still alive and well in our society, although maybe not as openly expressed. I'm sure artists are still making racist music. It's just a matter of finding it. I don't really listen to music very much so I can't name names. Society shifted away from being openly and blatantly racist and so the popular music shifted with it, not the other way around. It's the same with misogyny. As our society moves further and further away from the idea that that kind of attitude toward or treatment of women is ok, the popular music will shift away from it.

Sitting here typing this and thinking about it something occured to me. I would have never had any idea what "supermanning" is or that people even did that to other people if I hadn't heard the song. However, it's very likely that my son was exposed to this. Listening to the song together and knowing what the lyrics mean allows me to talk to my ds about how I feel about the act, which maybe gives him a different perspective on supermanning and how to treat women in general.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

I don't care what the lyrics are, I want that stupid song off the radio because the music sucks. Sometimes I think that the requirement for being a program director at a radio station is complete tone-deafness. If people want to listen to a song that got popular despite being lousy, let 'em buy the album and play it on their own equipment.

(Note, it's one of about 5 songs that I dislike completely. Even in genres I don't listen to much I can find something musically good about the songs.)


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## rachelle-a-tron (Apr 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
Oh man, talk about a trip down memory lane! _Pour Some Sugar On Me_ is still one of my fave DL songs.










Photograph is mine. I love DL.


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## rachelle-a-tron (Apr 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
Anyway, I think I turned out all right in spite of listening to that dirty, filthy rock and roll music.









Me too.

I have an 8 year old & while he doesn't understand what lyrics to songs like that mean right now I know that he will & we will talk about & that will be the end of it. I won't censor his music. I listened to NWA, 2 Live Crew & some crazy punk bands growing up & I am not warped... well only slightly I guess.

In june I am taking him to see The Reverend Horton Heat, The Supersucksrs (One of his favorite bands) & Nashville Pussy! We can't wait!


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## rachelle-a-tron (Apr 13, 2002)

Can someone tell me what supermanning is? I *think* I know what supersoaking is... if it's a 'golden shower.' I can't believe I am writing this crap.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rachelle-a-tron* 
Can someone tell me what supermanning is? I *think* I know what supersoaking is... if it's a 'golden shower.' I can't believe I am writing this crap.

urbandictionary(dot)com is the place to go.


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## rachelle-a-tron (Apr 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mtiger* 
urbandictionary(dot)com is the place to go.


Thanks!


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## chiromamma (Feb 24, 2003)

I've been thinking about and discussing this topic a lot lately. One thing I realized...The lyrics to songs I grew up with (80's 90's) were sexy and seductive.
Anyone remember Rod Stewart's Tonight's the Night? OMG. That got me so excited and my mom so mad. But here's the difference. It was sexy and romantic. It conjured up images of passion and love. It's not mysogynistic and degrading.
I discussed my discomfort with the lyrics of soulja boy and had my kids remove it from their iPods. I just can't stand to hear my 11yo son singing "superman that oh." I am so grateful this thread came up. I had NO idea what awful lyrics they were. I told them what they meant. Not sure if that was the best route. I'm hoping it's not lunchroom talk at DS's school today.
Can anyone tell me about some hip hop/rap that has positive lyrics. We already listen to Matisyahu but I'd love to know of others.


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## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
"Shutting down" racist music did not get rid of racism. Racism is still alive and well in our society, although maybe not as openly expressed. I'm sure artists are still making racist music. It's just a matter of finding it. I don't really listen to music very much so I can't name names. Society shifted away from being openly and blatantly racist and so the popular music shifted with it, not the other way around. It's the same with misogyny. As our society moves further and further away from the idea that that kind of attitude toward or treatment of women is ok, the popular music will shift away from it.

And how, may I ask, is our society going to shift away from it? Does it have an appointment to shift?

I would suggest that society has an "impetus" to shift, an impetus fed by ME, saying, "Hey, NO MORE of this. It's not nice, it hurts our society, stop it."

And racism, as you said, is NOT over... no, and it likely never will be as much as most people would like it to be (over).

BUT, it has weakened enormously, and shows signs of weakening a LOT more, as it should. Racist images and sounds in the media have lessened incredibly... you had to be alive before the Civil Rights Movement to appreciate the _enormity_ of the changes. Do you think that racist images and recordings only started to disappear AFTER the civil rights movement, or after the "shift," however you see that?

The businesses that distribute these sounds and images respond to the language of the dollar: if the public ain't buyin'; the studio/record company ain't sellin.' It starts with public outcry: Don't buy these misogynistic products purposely and deliberately. And don't defend them... good grief, they've really got you where they want you then. It makes one a handmaiden for misogynists.

Oh, btw, misogyny isn't a little men's club downtown with weekly harmless fun and annual do-gooder missions: Misogyny is woman-hating. Hate. Hate. Not dislike, not criticism, not the good-natured, "Women. Can't live with em, can't live without em," guys from the block attitude about his beloved wife, who he really loves, admires and respects. It's a man who views vagina-bearing human beings as pieces of sh-- to do with, or not, whatever he wants, from using them as a kleenex to masturbate into to a piece of traction on the highway of HIS LIFE. Objects of love... NOOOO, a misogynist does not understand or feel LOVE as we know it. They have want and don't want. He uses words and his body to hurt, deface, bring down, dehumanize women. And when it is done with music, or dance, or pictures, or movies, I AM NOT BUYING. And I am not going to lob that enormous, flame-loaded spear at my daughter's heart by simply discussing with her that... that what... that some men who masquerade as being nice, and cool, and with it, and who may even be hot and attractive and even SWEET in a conversation, are singing out to the world a so-called SONG, or TRACK, to the world where they say these absolutely insulting things about women, generally, and they want to or do really nasty things to them that hurt them and make them cry, or where they actually talk like they want to kill her, and exactly how they want to kill her. And don't listen to it, or be wierded out at all if the little boy or young man you have a serious crush on starts saying those same words out loud while he's grooving along with his IPOD... they don't really MEAN that."

"Then why do they say it, Mom? Why don't they say what they MEAN, then, Mom and Dad? Can I have a peanut butter sandwich, Daddy? What are young men thinking about... Dad? Do you think that way? Thanks for taking off the crusts, Daddy. Do you ever say that or do that to Mom? Will someone want to do that to me?















:uke

That's where her thinking is going to take her to. I'm against that. I am crying out. Shut that stuff down. Don't buy it, don't defend it, don't explain it: don't put it into their mp3 player. It's not that hard. Other people can still get it, listen to it, let your kid listen to it, throw a party with it and invite your kids, and YOUR decision to PARENT the heck out of the situation as much as you can if that is only to not allow them to play it at home or to load it into the mp3 player that you bought them, will impact your children's growth and maturity in a really good way, as good as the growth and maturity that might--maybe--come if you just give them the reins on it, which imo, for children in elementary school for sure, is not a good thing at all. They're not ready, they cannot comprehend without some psychic damage what it's all about and what it means about a lot of things. I feel my child is really deep, smart, aware, precocious... and all that stuff, but she is a child with a child's development. She is still under my protection for this reason, so says Nature and Society.

VF


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## chiromamma (Feb 24, 2003)

Oh yea! You said it viewfinder!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I don't buy it. I don't even have an MP3 player to put it in. I don't listen to it of my own accord. I am not defending the lyrics of any song. I am defending an individual's right to listen to it. I am saying that censorship is not the answer. Open, honest communication is. None of these things is going to go away quickly. It's part of an ongoing shift away from victimizing people in general that my focus on one group more than another at any given time. I also don't see the point in continuing this discussion if name-calling is going to continue. That's not respectful.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viewfinder* 
Tastes in the levels of necessary snark vary widely, UnschoolnMa. (where's the "throws her head back and laughs" smiley?)

Agreed!









Quote:

Misogyny is a huge, huge problem in society. I wish there was a mechanism with which I could silence musical artists whose lyrics degrade women, objectify women, trivialize women.
Overall I am no fan. But music is art, and artists have the right to free speech whether or not I agree with what they are saying. I have the right to listen or to not listen, and so do you, which is all good news. Censorship doesn't work for me.

Quote:

I believe it is damaging to be disseminated... because it goes into children's ears, children's hearts, children's maps of the world. And I believe it is delusional to think that children have the capability to deal with this stuff. If children and teenagers are so sophisticated, so discerning, why don't they just go out on their own? What do they need parents for?
And I believe it's inaccurate to say that children and teens can't understand these things. (How's that for an impasse? LOL) I have the proof right here in my own children, actually. I think there is a big difference in saying that kids/teens are capable of critically thinking about song lyrics and other art, and that they don't need any adult presence in their lives. I'm here for my teens to share my experiences, my thoughts, and to offer any guidance I can give. The world is full of things that are harmful, sad, unjust, and whatever else that I don't particularly value. My kids know that, and I share my thoughts on safety, respect, and etc.

Quote:

They're NOT so sophisticated, they're NOT so rock solid sure of themselves as you think, they're NOT so imbued with your good values that they virtually ARE you.
Who said any of that?














In any case, I have seen evidence that they do have many of the same values I do. We don't always agree, but I never expected that we would. They are individuals, and I never want them to be "virtually me". As far as rock solid goes...I am not always 100% sure of everything myself, and I don't imagine they are either. That's why critical thinking is something I want them to be able to do. That way they can evaluate what they think and feel about something and why.

Quote:

Can you remember the FIRST time your little daughter actually heard the real words of some great fun, misogynistic rap song, and how she reacted to it? I can. It HURT her. Her face fell, like it was PERSONAL. She looked up at me, her eyes searching for some explanation. "Why is he saying that about her?" (eminem's ode to wife Kim).
 Oh she was probably about 9 or so when Eminem started to get hot on the radio. What you've described up there was not our experience. We listened and talked about what we liked and didn't like and why. It was a great opportunity to talk about sexism, domestic violence, anger management, power struggles/imbalances, self esteem, etc.

Quote:

And you can talk all you want to her about why, and educate her for the rest of her life that "it's those other people over there...," and it's not going to explain away that personal hurt. It HURTS to be debased because of the color of your skin; it HURTS to be debased because of your gender.
 Sure it hurts. I totally agree. I do think talking and education is key. Absolutely!


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 

Sitting here typing this and thinking about it something occured to me. I would have never had any idea what "supermanning" is or that people even did that to other people if I hadn't heard the song. However, it's very likely that my son was exposed to this. Listening to the song together and knowing what the lyrics mean allows me to talk to my ds about how I feel about the act, which maybe gives him a different perspective on supermanning and how to treat women in general.

Absolutely!!


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## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

Just to be clear on that. My opinions on this matter are long-held, I've written a lot about it. The name, handmaiden of misogyny is not calling someone a name, but illustrating what I see as the description of the member of a social system who defends the rights of misogynists who strike out at members of her own sex, including her daughters. I hope you will think about it alot. I truly do. If you don't want to, fine. Hey, I was in Charleston, South Carolina when a woman's group in the city picketed at the Citadel Military Academy against the women who were already admitted. Same thing, in my opinion. Handmaidens of Patriarchy.

Censorship is unrealistic. I don't advocate censorship of artists. But I advocate for individual courage to make bold, new decisions in this area. I do believe that all the enlightened parenting that you and I do is Number One on the list to do. Number Two is me doing what I can to eliminate pain coming at my child.

I've had a lot of exposure to a lot of different kids and teens, from insulated rich kids to teens in detention centers... I think of these kids, too, who may or may not--most of them not, have parents with the ability to parent that we would like them to have, and it's up to the rest of us in society to help THOSE families, too. It's not enough to figure, well, we can help our child to deal with this... it's all good. Because most children and teens don't actually have that kind of wonderful bond with their parents.

I have a wealth of experience working with the power of suggestion on many levels, with many different types of and groups of people. These experiences inform my beliefs on this subject.

Please look a little deeper at it, consider the future ramifications of being okay with it, ignoring the message in the song, allowing yourself to be another ring of the cash register that puts money in that guy's pocket, and thereby propogate MORE OF THE SAME for years to come.

VF


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

It seems standards in popular music keep falling to new lows as the years pass! Idiotic, inane and devoid of creativity. I can't imagine what sort of music these kids are going to remember with some nostalgia when they grow up.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seawind* 
It seems standards in popular music keep falling to new lows as the years pass! Idiotic, inane and devoid of creativity. I can't imagine what sort of music these kids are going to remember with some nostalgia when they grow up.

Good question! I was interested too so I asked my kids.

A partial list of Dd's songs:

*"Everywhere" by Michelle Branch*- She and her best friend listened to it so much when it came out.

*"Sugar We're Going Down" by Fall Out Boy* - The first song she heard by what is now her very fave band. This is a love also shared by the aforementioned best friend. Both girls got to see FOB in concert last summer, and it was a memory they will really cherish forever I think. Many of the lyrics have a lot of meaning and memory attached for the girls. Almost all of their songs are on her list.

*"Time Of Your Life" by Green Day*- Reminds Dd of an online friend!

*"Mary Jane's Last Dance" by Tom Petty* - Makes her think of me and her Dad.









*"Dazed and Confused" by LZ* - Reminds her of brother.

*"Meet Virginia" by Train*- Fun time in her life, reminds her of where we were living at the time, and a girl we used to know.

*"Vienna" by Billy Joel*- It's just so her

Some from Ds:

*Matchbox 20*- Reminds him of being a little boy at our old apartment complex

*"Stairway to Heaven"* - Intro to Led Zeppelin!









*Early TOOL*- Makes him think of his Dad

*The Blackeyed Peas* - In some weird timing thing, every time Ds would get a new Final Fantasy game the BE Peas would end up releasing a new single. He'd hear it often on the radio as he worked at conquering the game.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viewfinder* 
Just to be clear on that. My opinions on this matter are long-held, I've written a lot about it. The name, handmaiden of misogyny is not calling someone a name, but illustrating what I see as the description of the member of a social system who defends the rights of misogynists who strike out at members of her own sex, including her daughters. I hope you will think about it alot. I truly do. If you don't want to, fine. Hey, I was in Charleston, South Carolina when a woman's group in the city picketed at the Citadel Military Academy against the women who were already admitted. Same thing, in my opinion. Handmaidens of Patriarchy.

Censorship is unrealistic. I don't advocate censorship of artists. But I advocate for individual courage to make bold, new decisions in this area. I do believe that all the enlightened parenting that you and I do is Number One on the list to do. Number Two is closely followed by me doing what I can to eliminate pain coming at my child.

I've had a lot of exposure to a lot of different kids and teens, from insulated rich kids to teens in detention centers... I think of these kids, too, who may or may not--most of them not, have parents with the ability to parent that we would like them to have, and it's up to the rest of us in society to help THOSE families, too. It's not enough to figure, well, we can help our child to deal with this... it's all good. Because most children and teens don't actually have that kind of wonderful bond with their parents.

I have a wealth of experience working with the power of suggestion on many levels, with many different types of and groups of people. These experiences inform my beliefs on this subject.

Please look a little deeper at it, consider the future ramifications of being okay with it, ignoring the message in the song, allowing yourself to be another ring of the cash register that puts money in that guy's pocket, and thereby propogate MORE OF THE SAME for years to come.

VF

Labeling of any kind is the same as name-calling to me. I defend the Constitution of the United States. I defend the right of any individual to think anything s/he wants. I am not threatened by the lyrics of a song because I don't allow people to treat me that way. I think that's the best lesson I can teach my children. I am not a victim of any person or group who hates me for whatever reason. It is insulting to me to assume that I don't think about these things because I don't agree with your approach.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viewfinder* 
I wish there was a mechanism with which I could silence musical artists whose lyrics degrade women, objectify women, trivialize women. I believe it is damaging to be disseminated

Here's one place where you at least _seem_ to advocate censorship for the entire population. Even if that's not what you meant, you still have advocated us censoring what our own children listen to. I don't think it's my position to control my children in the same way that it's not my position to control my dp. Trying to force people to do what you do or think the way you think by preaching and moralizing and controlling doesn't work. Again, open, honest and respectful communication is what works.

I do my part to try to influence society by not spending my money at certain stores or on certain things. When a subject comes up, I will share my opinion. I don't allow people to treat me in a disrespectful manner. I try to treat all people with respect regardless of whether or not I agree with them. I do not think I have the right to tell another person what s/he should listen to or read or look at or think.


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## katybear mama (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by seawind
It seems standards in popular music keep falling to new lows as the years pass! Idiotic, inane and devoid of creativity. I can't imagine what sort of music these kids are going to remember with some nostalgia when they grow up.
This is true. Although the songs that UnschoolnMa's kids listed seem to be nostalgia-worthy. But to each , their own. What I deem nostalgia-worthy may not be to someone else. I was thinking about this the other day while listening to the radio in the car with dd. I can't stand most of the pop music she likes (she's 9). But she is also exposed to all the music I listen to. And what I listen to is alot of what my parents listened to when I was growing up - Fleetwood Mac, Allman Bros, Steely Dan, Springsteen, Grateful Dead. So maybe the same will hold true for her.


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## chellemarie (Jan 17, 2003)

I know there are very serious themes in this thread, but I am cracking UP. That guy reading the lyrics all spoken-word, open mic night is KILLING ME.

I like that song. I think it is fun to listen to. I knew the lyrics couldn't mean anything good, but I still like it. My son likes that song and can sing along with it. (He doesn't want me to tell his dad, though, because he is only supposed to like rock - the hairier the better.)

My son doesn't want to know what those lyrics mean. He just wants to enjoy the song.

When I read the definition for "superman", I laughed. If someone really does that, it's horrible and not at all funny. But hypothetically? I'm sorry. I laughed.

Please don't suggest that anything that might possibly in some way be offensive to someone somewhere be taken off the radio and off the shelves. If the happy fluffy bunnies take over, I am so out of here. People need to learn to deal with different attitudes and behavior. I know the ways in which I'll be discriminated against; the things that have nothing to do with my personality or behavior that people will dislike me for. It is my reality and I have to find ways to cope with it. Please don't try to do that for me. We can't make the world one big padded room. Even if we could, I'd vote against it. I like my oranges sweet and juicy and getting a bad one in the bunch makes the good ones that much better.


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## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
Labeling of any kind is the same as name-calling to me. I defend the Constitution of the United States. I defend the right of any individual to think anything s/he wants. I am not threatened by the lyrics of a song because I don't allow people to treat me that way. I think that's the best lesson I can teach my children. I am not a victim of any person or group who hates me for whatever reason. It is insulting to me to assume that I don't think about these things because I don't agree with your approach.

Here's one place where you at least _seem_ to advocate censorship for the entire population. Even if that's not what you meant, you still have advocated us censoring what our own children listen to. I don't think it's my position to control my children in the same way that it's not my position to control my dp. Trying to force people to do what you do or think the way you think by preaching and moralizing and controlling doesn't work. Again, open, honest and respectful communication is what works.

I do my part to try to influence society by not spending my money at certain stores or on certain things. When a subject comes up, I will share my opinion. I don't allow people to treat me in a disrespectful manner. I try to treat all people with respect regardless of whether or not I agree with them. I do not think I have the right to tell another person what s/he should listen to or read or look at or think.


Well, hm. I'd have to start a response by pointing out all the ways you have misconstrued and mislabeled my remarks, so, I don't see this heading anywhere else useful.

Therefore, I will simply direct anyone interested in the subject we were talking about to go back through my excellent posts on this thread. As fun to write as they are to read.

VF


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
Here's one place where you at least seem to advocate censorship for the entire population. Even if that's not what you meant, you still have advocated us censoring what our own children listen to. I don't think it's my position to control my children in the same way that it's not my position to control my dp. Trying to force people to do what you do or think the way you think by preaching and moralizing and controlling doesn't work. Again, open, honest and respectful communication is what works.

Yes and yes again!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chellemarie* 
Please don't suggest that anything that might possibly in some way be offensive to someone somewhere be taken off the radio and off the shelves. If the happy fluffy bunnies take over, I am so out of here. *People need to learn to deal with different attitudes and behavior. I know the ways in which I'll be discriminated against; the things that have nothing to do with my personality or behavior that people we dislike me for. It is my reality and I have to find ways to cope with it. Please don't try to do that for me. We can't make the world one big padded room.* Even if we could, I'd vote against it. I like my oranges sweet and juicy and getting a bad one in the bunch makes the good ones that much better.

My bold

Thank you for putting this so well. I kept trying to post this but it just wasn't coming out right. I want to do everything I can to protect my child from being hurt, part of that is being aware of the prejudices and abuses and offensive attitudes that are out there so that my child is prepared and can defend h**self. If I insulate my child from all of it, when s/he is confronted with it s/he is more likely to be a victim of it.


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## `guest` (Nov 20, 2001)

Thanks chellemarie and Marine Wife for your eloquent posts. I don't think the way to solve problems is to take a hard line stance. How will you educate anyone if you come at them hard? They will just become defensive. Communication and open ness to life is the key to being a successful person. Lyrics in songs, ad nauseum do not define the person. There is more to all of us than our words and it's important to remember and connect with that. As they would say, "DOn't be a hater!"


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## forthebest (Jun 19, 2006)

I think we all want what is good for our dc, there is no point in just making a point for the sake of it, it has to mean something I guess. Now, I wouldn't stop my dc from listening to any song but if it was full of noticeable offensive stuff, like continual swearing( something like Tenacious D for ex) or some sexist rap stuff( cos there is good rap music imo) we wouldn't want to listen to it anyway. I wouldn't be able to 'stop' my dc from listening to what they want anyway unless I took away their 'free' choice and music in it's essence is about choice and life experience. For me and millions of others being listeners not players of sounds it's a great place to escape to, learn from, enjoy etc. There is also quite a lot of anti-woman music on certain video games, mostly played by boys. As like most of the families here we are open to communication. Soulja boy is just another song, it's not to my taste and I wouldn't have a copy of it. I wouldn't have had a clue what the lyrics are all about but knowing now doesn't enlighten me to this measly effort of a commercial interest song, the dance and all obviously catering to the market they are going for, young kids.

I for one think music or any other form that 'chooses' to degrade women sucks. It's a neverending cycle of mean crap towards my sex. I don't like women-hating music, how 'dirty' do they want us to feel as women, or non-beings which IS the message being pushed, visual porn, auditory porn, it's all the same ? I wonder do the guys that date women that sing some of that stuff really want to treat women like dirt or do they see it as 'sexy' or summit. Or do they have gf's, wives who they treat ok? It's a marketing tool as well, very trendy to supersoak, ich.Whatever, I'll stick with Grace Jones. I do think we are all becoming desensitized about things we really shouldn't be, there is so much propaganda being shoved at us and we know it's very bad for us as a family and the greater human family which is in sorry repair imo), I feel the anti-woman message is being forced on us with ever increasing intensity fro so many angles, which is bad for all woman but also means they're running scared.


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## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *forthebest* 
I think we all want what is good for our dc, there is no point in just making a point for the sake of it, it has to mean something I guess. Now, I wouldn't stop my dc from listening to any song but if it was full of noticeable offensive stuff, like continual swearing( something like Tenacious D for ex) or some sexist rap stuff( cos there is good rap music imo) we wouldn't want to listen to it anyway. I wouldn't be able to 'stop' my dc from listening to what they want anyway unless I took away their 'free' choice and music in it's essence is about choice and life experience. For me and millions of others being listeners not players of sounds it's a great place to escape to, learn from, enjoy etc. There is also quite a lot of anti-woman music on certain video games, mostly played by boys. As like most of the families here we are open to communication. Soulja boy is just another song, it's not to my taste and I wouldn't have a copy of it. I wouldn't have had a clue what the lyrics are all about but knowing now doesn't enlighten me to this measly effort of a commercial interest song, the dance and all obviously catering to the market they are going for, young kids.

I for one think music or any other form that 'chooses' to degrade women sucks. It's a neverending cycle of mean crap towards my sex. I don't like women-hating music, how 'dirty' do they want us to feel as women, or non-beings which IS the message being pushed, visual porn, auditory porn, it's all the same ? I wonder do the guys that date women that sing some of that stuff really want to treat women like dirt or do they see it as 'sexy' or summit. Or do they have gf's, wives who they treat ok? It's a marketing tool as well, very trendy to supersoak, ich.Whatever, I'll stick with Grace Jones. I do think we are all becoming desensitized about things we really shouldn't be, there is so much propaganda being shoved at us and we know it's very bad for us as a family and the greater human family which is in sorry repair imo), I feel the anti-woman message is being forced on us with ever increasing intensity fro so many angles, which is bad for all woman but also means they're running scared.

So well put, forthebest. Poetic, strong, sweet. Thank you.

Please don't someone cry "Censorship" for these kinds of intelligent thoughts on this subject. Misogyny in art is a trend that it is important to NOTICE. Censorship is a continuum that we are ALL on... no one the same, changing over time, changing in response to different things. No one on here has called for censorship, so please don't derail our CONVERSATION about how we each feel about it for us, and for our sphere of influence, by LEAPING to that end of the continuum: we are nowhere near there.

There is plenty of scholarship on this ebbing and flowing of anti-woman behavior and "artisitic expression" in society going back for many, many thousands of years of humanity. Riane Eisler described this so well in "The Chalice and The Blade" (early 1990s), in which she hangs it all on a framework of systems theory, which she also explains; and it is THERE, in clear, plain, fact. Susan Faludi weighs in on this heavily in "Backlash: The Undeclared War Against American Women." Profound.

That's what this trend is, this misogynistic trend: it is a backlash against woman's attainment of power and independence from patriarchal control and repression. That's why it's important to talk about this alot and loudly. Misogynistic "art" has an effect that SHOULD be counterbalanced with our response.

FTR, all responses that address it are good, even those that can not countenance whatever MY response would be.










VF


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## chiromamma (Feb 24, 2003)

It disturbs me that exercising discernment is too often seen as judgemental and advocating censorship.
The *C-word* is such a hot word to throw at parents who choose not to expose their children to things we see as harmful.
Is it censorship to limit our childrens' intake of sugar, drugs (legal & illegal) or for some, animal products?
For me, degrading, de-humanizng music is as toxic to my childrens' nervous systems and spirits as diet coke, lunchables and vaccinations are to their bodies.
I lean very left and my kids are exposed to many lifestyle choices.
But I'm sorry. I don't feel that everything is OK. My children do not need to learn to tolerate "art forms" that are offensive and degrading. As a matter of fact I want them to stand up and say, "This is not OK."
That's how they'll change the world.
It's my job as a parent to see to that what goes in to their bodies, minds and souls is as pure and supportive of life as possible.
I like to think I've done an OK job so far.
I am all for free speech but not free exposure for children.


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## felix23 (Nov 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chellemarie* 
I know there are very serious themes in this thread, but I am cracking UP. That guy reading the lyrics all spoken-word, open mic night is KILLING ME.

I like that song. I think it is fun to listen to. I knew the lyrics couldn't mean anything good, but I still like it. My son likes that song and can sing along with it. (He doesn't want me to tell his dad, though, because he is only supposed to like rock - the hairier the better.)

My son doesn't want to know what those lyrics mean. He just wants to enjoy the song.

*When I read the definition for "superman", I laughed. If someone really does that, it's horrible and not at all funny. But hypothetically? I'm sorry. I laughed.*

Please don't suggest that anything that might possibly in some way be offensive to someone somewhere be taken off the radio and off the shelves. If the happy fluffy bunnies take over, I am so out of here. People need to learn to deal with different attitudes and behavior. I know the ways in which I'll be discriminated against; the things that have nothing to do with my personality or behavior that people will dislike me for. It is my reality and I have to find ways to cope with it. Please don't try to do that for me. We can't make the world one big padded room. Even if we could, I'd vote against it. I like my oranges sweet and juicy and getting a bad one in the bunch makes the good ones that much better.


Do you think it is funny to degrade women? I'm frankly shocked that you would even laugh at the definition. Is hypothetical racism funny too? Because I really don't see the difference between degrading someone because of their skin color and degrading someone because of their gender. Both are wrong and should not be supported or encouraged.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

For a lot of songs, once I hear the Weird Al version the "regular" version is too boring. For some of them, the regular version also doesn't scan well enough or have enough of a melody.

Back on topic, there is a huge difference between not buying something yourself and censorship. Wishing for the magical ability to make artists stop producing misogynist music is not the same as wishing that the misogynist music would be outlawed.

Interestingly, the misogynist music problem isn't new or limited to one genre:
from the 1930's "hello my baby, hello my honey....if you refuse me, honey you'll lose me"
And from the world of top-40's pop:




 check out the commentary on Sugar Ray.

(The guy reading it is hysterical! This site is similarly funny, but not kid friendly: http://www.raptranslations.com/ )


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chiromamma* 
It disturbs me that exercising discernment is too often seen as judgemental and advocating censorship.
The *C-word* is such a hot word to throw at parents who choose not to expose their children to things we see as harmful.
Is it censorship to limit our childrens' intake of sugar, drugs (legal & illegal) or for some, animal products?
For me, degrading, de-humanizng music is as toxic to my childrens' nervous systems and spirits as diet coke, lunchables and vaccinations are to their bodies.
I lean very left and my kids are exposed to many lifestyle choices.
But I'm sorry. I don't feel that everything is OK. My children do not need to learn to tolerate "art forms" that are offensive and degrading. As a matter of fact I want them to stand up and say, "This is not OK."
That's how they'll change the world.
It's my job as a parent to see to that what goes in to their bodies, minds and souls is as pure and supportive of life as possible.
I like to think I've done an OK job so far.
I am all for free speech but not free exposure for children.

Censorship came up for me when someone stated that s/he wished s/he could _silence_ the artists and not allow their music to be disseminated. That is censorship.

Here is the concern I have with what you have posted, and it may not be what you meant at all, in which case, please correct me. What happens if you do everything you can to make sure your children agree with you but they don't? That is a possibility. They are individuals with their own minds and they can think whatever they choose. You may be able to control what they are exposed to when they are with you but you cannot control that exposure 24/7/365. You can never control what they think. Have you left room for them to disagree with you and still be accepted by you or would you reject them as much as you reject those ideas?

I don't think anyone has advocated purposely exposing our children to offensive media. We are talking about how to handle it once they have been exposed to it, especially if they like it.


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## funkygranolamama (Aug 10, 2005)

I'm the OP and I'm back.

I've been lurking for awhile because I've had mixed feelings about all this. I did what a few of you mentioned. I explained to her why I don't care for the song and told her that supermanning and supersoaking are sexual acts that are against women. She didn't like that too much but continues to do the dance every chance she gets. I did point out that the dance can be done to almost any upbeat song if she tries.

We do not own this song in any form. She does go watch the link of the ballet class dancing to it because she loves the way the little boy up front does it. She's REALLY into dance.

I shouldn't have said "censorship" to begin with. I know, as well as anyone else, that doesn't work. As a teen, if my dad didn't like a boyfriend, all the more reason to keep dating him. It's all about rebelling at that age, at least it was for me, and I don't want it to be that way for my child. That took me down roads I'd never wish on my dd.

I'm not saying I feel any differently about the song than before. I still strongly dislike it and it drives me crazy to think that a song with those ideas is being marketed toward children. It's really alot like using Joe Camel to market ciggies to young kids.

My main idea now is that media literacy is what is most important. As alot of you said, teaching our children to read the media instead of completely cutting it out. What's going to happen if we completely cut it out while they are kids? When they are old enough to gain independance how will they handle these ideas that we've sheltered them from? We need to teach our young boys and girls that songs like these are not an indication of how women OR men should be treated. It's inhumane.

I agree with both sides on different issues. NO to censorship, yes to open communication, NO to supporting these artists in any way, yes to media literacy education for ALL children.

These songs will always be around as bad as that sucks. No matter how much of an uproar we cause, the artists will still create whatever makes them cool and rich. If it takes dehumanizing women, race, or what have you, that's what they'll do. The only way I know to hopefully make a difference is teaching our kids good values so they can handle exposure to this crap (and not putting ANY money in those artists pockets!). It may also be a good idea to make a stink about public education systems implementing a media literacy program. Not just for this junky music, but to help the kids "read" commercials, magazine ads, etc. and know that they ARE good enough without this or that.

Even though there has been alot of fire-throwing in this thread, I must say I've really appreciated getting opinions from all sides. It's amazing that in all our differences we all have one thing definately in common---we are all here for the sake of good parenting, whatever way that may be for each of us.


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## chellemarie (Jan 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *felix23* 
Do you think it is funny to degrade women? I'm frankly shocked that you would even laugh at the definition. Is hypothetical racism funny too? Because I really don't see the difference between degrading someone because of their skin color and degrading someone because of their gender. Both are wrong and should not be supported or encouraged.

Nope. I don't think it is at all funny to degrade women. I don't support or encourage degrading anyone.

I do think that heavy things can be joked about and laughed at without disregarding how serious they are on a larger scale. And I did say that someone really doing that to another person would be horrible and not at all funny.


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## elleystar (Oct 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *felix23* 
Do you think it is funny to degrade women? I'm frankly shocked that you would even laugh at the definition. Is hypothetical racism funny too? Because I really don't see the difference between degrading someone because of their skin color and degrading someone because of their gender. Both are wrong and should not be supported or encouraged.










You yourself bolded the line "If someone really does that, it's horrible and not at all funny." So I'm just really really confused about why you even asked her the question?
When I first read this thread a while back, I laughed too when I finally read the 'superman' definition! It was so unexpected and outta left field, and stupefying, I just laughed my butt off! DH did too. So did our pop-music-hating best friends.

Maybe I'm going to regret bringing this up, but nobody has addressed it yet. What about songs that are rude/degrading towards men? Sure, maybe there aren't so many of them and they're not so blatant, but they're there. Man, I was in the car wash line yesterday and 'Hit 'Em Up Style' by Blu Cantrell came on the radio. I rocked right out to it. Was that a bad thing?
I guess I just wanted to bring a different question to the table rather than keep beating a dead horse. I wonder how many songs make it through parental filters because they DON'T target a commonly victimized group? What about when Eminem puts down other men? What about when Lily Allen sings about her brother's pot addiction, or getting back at her cheatin' ex in "Smile"? Carrie Underwood's "Before He Cheats"? Oh man, if we started on women artists singing about the things they'd like to do to cheating exes, I bet we could go back a couple of generations and find plenty of popular songs. I don't think we'd want to encourage that kind of behavior in our daughters either, but is it ok to listen to?
I guess so many people have said it so much better. While I'm all for controlling what a child hears to a certain extent to coincide with his/her maturity level, I think that the sheltering can definitely go too far. I'd rather be able to have open intelligent discussions with my kids about what they're hearing and how they feel about it, and let them use their own brains. Because there are a lot of unpleasant things out in the real world that they will need the tools to deal with. As long as people are on this Earth, that's not gonna change.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chiromamma* 
It disturbs me that exercising discernment is too often seen as judgemental and advocating censorship.

 I think there is a difference in personal tastes/values and outright banning.

Quote:

The *C-word* is such a hot word to throw at parents who choose not to expose their children to things we see as harmful.
Is it censorship to limit our childrens' intake of sugar, drugs (legal & illegal) or for some, animal products?
 Many families handle sugar issues and such the same way they do media (song lyrics, TV, etc)- with conversation and modeling positive choices. I think it's also relevant that we are in the pre-teen/ teen forum. I don't limit my 14 or 16 year olds sugar intake or their song choices. I am a vegetarian and so is my Dd, but she made that decision on her own. My son eats meat, eggs, and dairy without issue.

Quote:

For me, degrading, de-humanizng music is as toxic to my childrens' nervous systems and spirits as diet coke, lunchables and vaccinations are to their bodies.
My children are free to eat Lunchables (though it's been awhile since they wanted one), drink diet Coke (Ds is drinking Diet Dew as I type this actually), and be vaccinated. Of course when they were infants or very young I made the bulk of these decisions for them because they were too young to care then, but they are old enough now for sure. I think it would be highly inappropriate to tell my 16 -going on 17 year old what he can and cannot listen to.

Quote:

I lean very left and my kids are exposed to many lifestyle choices.
But I'm sorry. I don't feel that everything is OK.
I do not feel that everything has value, and neither do my kids. Usually we agree on those kinds of things, but not always.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elleystar* 
What about when Lily Allen sings about her brother's pot addiction, or getting back at her cheatin' ex in "Smile"? Carrie Underwood's "Before He Cheats"? Oh man, if we started on women artists singing about the things they'd like to do to cheating exes, I bet we could go back a couple of generations and find plenty of popular songs. I don't think we'd want to encourage that kind of behavior in our daughters either, but is it ok to listen to?









Dd has both these songs on her playlist and they've been really great to talk about! One we recently discusses was Carrie Underwood's new one "All American Girl" .


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## felix23 (Nov 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chellemarie* 
Nope. I don't think it is at all funny to degrade women. I don't support or encourage degrading anyone.

I do think that heavy things can be joked about and laughed at without disregarding how serious they are on a larger scale. And I did say that someone really doing that to another person would be horrible and not at all funny.


I guess I'm going to be the odd one then because I can't find anything remotely amusing about degrading a woman, not even hypothetically. It makes me feel sick to think that a guy might grow up thinking it is cool and okay to treat the women in his life this way.

I do not think that these artist should be censored, but I do wish that society send the message that glorifying these types of acts is not acceptable by not making these songs popular. I don't listen to or buy songs that are racist or degrading of people in regards to their gender because I don't want to support these artist or songs in any way.


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## chellemarie (Jan 17, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally Posted by chellemarie:
Nope. I don't think it is at all funny to degrade women. I don't support or encourage degrading anyone.

I do think that heavy things can be joked about and laughed at without disregarding how serious they are on a larger scale. And I did say that someone really doing that to another person would be horrible and not at all funny._

Originally Posted by felix23:
I guess I'm going to be the odd one then because I can't find anything remotely amusing about degrading a woman, not even hypothetically. It makes me feel sick to think that a guy might grow up thinking it is cool and okay to treat the women in his life this way.
I think that "hypothetically" might not have been the best word to use, but I don't think I need to keep getting prodded at for saying that "If someone really does that, it's horrible and not at all funny."

I hardly think it makes you "odd" because you aren't amused by degradation of women. Perhaps it makes you a better, more enlightened person - which is what I think you really want to hear.

There. You win.


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## forthebest (Jun 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chellemarie* 
I think that "hypothetically" might not have been the best word to use, but I don't think I need to keep getting prodded at for saying that "If someone really does that, it's horrible and not at all funny."

I hardly think it makes you "odd" because you aren't amused by degradation of women. Perhaps it makes you a better, more enlightened person - which is what I think you really want to hear.

There. You win.


I think it's them that wins really. Them being the misogynists( an ever-growing breed) and the profit-making opportunistic record labels/artists. It is imperative that the next generation of misogynists get into the groove as early as possible. I find it odd that people would want to disseminate the lyrics of say soulja boy, voice their disagreement with said lyrics and still listen to the crap. Seems a bit hypocritical but can be washed off as allowing free speech while anyone who doesn't want to encourage this stuff is labelled as censoring. I doubt the moms who are voicing discontent with said lyrics are doing any such thing as it is not necessary for the simple reason that children who have thought about what these lyrics imply and who whole-heartedly disagree with the debasment of women through music are not going to want to listen to it anyway, no matter how hard it's being forced on them. There is nothing sugar-coated about that unlike the lyrics to soulja boy.
If my child wanted to eat 20 big macs a day should I just let them in case I am censoring my childs wishes? Should I allow them to smoke , if they have started, voice my disagreement with it, issue some health warnings and just let them get on with it? That attitude never helped anyone I know to quit smoking as a child. I can't see lyrics like these being healthy for a child, or anyone for that matter. They can dance to anything. Maybe , like movies, there should be a warning like 'explicit lyrical content' etc except these clever little people have used coded language to slip in their ulterior motive. Gah! Children are being used by these corporate ho's, adding some 'healthy', hidden and sugar-coated misogyny into the mix is guaranteed to draw attention and fulfill the misogynistic dream that all females be ejaculated on( and all the other stuff they want to do to us) thereby putting us in 'our place'. Lets be brave and move on from this sad and dangerous state and educate our dc about the mass brain-washing being aimed directly at them and what that really means instead of enabling and encouraging them to participate. It's up to us after all. It's quite easy to do and you don't have to censor anything, just open their minds to new possibilities that do not condone abuse towards women through music or any other means.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *forthebest* 
Maybe , like movies, there should be a warning like 'explicit lyrical content' etc

Music CDs do have warning labels on them.


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## chellemarie (Jan 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *forthebest* 
I find it odd that people would want to disseminate the lyrics of say soulja boy, voice their disagreement with said lyrics and still listen to the crap. Seems a bit hypocritical but can be washed off as allowing free speech while anyone who doesn't want to encourage this stuff is labelled as censoring.

I understand the appeal of the song aside from the lyrics. It is bouncy, catchy, fun. I think we can ask our kids what those lyrics mean to them. "What do you think he's talking about there?" I don't think we always have to tell them, "That means something really, really bad." I think that sometimes, that's worse than letting them think it's just about a dance or a comic book hero. I've looked at the song and considered how it affects my child and decided how to handle it accordingly.

Part of the problem here is this: Many, many songs can be picked apart and hidden (or not so hidden) meanings can be found that ruin our enjoyment of the song. I don't want to be looking for what is wrong with everything. Sometimes, I just want to enjoy it.

That doesn't mean I enjoy people hating on women. There is a difference there that I don't see as hypocritical.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *forthebest* 
If my child wanted to eat 20 big macs a day should I just let them in case I am censoring my childs wishes? Should I allow them to smoke , if they have started, voice my disagreement with it, issue some health warnings and just let them get on with it? That attitude never helped anyone I know to quit smoking as a child. I can't see lyrics like these being healthy for a child, or anyone for that matter.

I think the negative effects of overeating Big Macs and smoking are more direct and immediate than listening to lyrics. Also, excessive consumption and smoking are also _behaviors_. The risks involved there are more immediate. I agree that a cumulative effect of listening to offensive lyrics is dangerous and parents should take time to talk about them. But they are ideas, not behaviors. Ideas that could become behaviors, but are indeed ideas. That you can influence without banning.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *forthebest* 
Maybe , like movies, there should be a warning like 'explicit lyrical content' etc except these clever little people have used coded language to slip in their ulterior motive. Gah! Children are being used by these corporate ho's, adding some 'healthy', hidden and sugar-coated misogyny into the mix is guaranteed to draw attention and fulfill the misogynistic dream that all females be ejaculated on( and all the other stuff they want to do to us) thereby putting us in 'our place'.

I think this is giving them too much credit. I find it hard to believe they think about it that much. I do think they think about making money and "Ha ha, my friends will think this is funny."

Quote:


Originally Posted by *forthebest* 
Lets be brave and move on from this sad and dangerous state and educate our dc about the mass brain-washing being aimed directly at them and what that really means instead of enabling and encouraging them to participate. It's up to us after all. It's quite easy to do and you don't have to censor anything, just open their minds to new possibilities that do not condone abuse towards women through music or any other means.

I don't condone the abuse of women. I do talk to my children about underlying meanings in media messages.

Watching my daughter playing today, I thought about this thread and decided that it is more important - and effective - to teach her how to see these meanings and what to do about them for herself. It is my job to protect her when she's a child, but I think it is imperative to equip her to handled these things her way. If that means she's outraged by lyrics like these as an adult and wants to start a campaign against them, fine. If that means she dismisses them as a joke and doesn't find them to be a threat to her, that's fine, too.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
Music CDs do have warning labels on them.

Some of them are able to get around the labeling by using other words for the acts, like "superman". This particular CD IS labeled, but not all of them are.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

It's pretty easy these days to research a CD, artist, or song before you make a purchase. We do it all the time.







This way you won't have any reason to be caught off guard by "superman" type lyrics, and you can decide to buy or not buy based on your personal comfort level.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chellemarie*
I understand the appeal of the song aside from the lyrics. It is bouncy, catchy, fun. I think we can ask our kids what those lyrics mean to them. "What do you think he's talking about there?"

Exactly. This is has been our experience and approach as well.


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## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

The thing that throws me again and again are the comments that come out swinging against censorship, in such a way that it presupposes that anyone here has implied or stated that we want to live in an insulated, padded room surrounded by bunnies, or whatever. We don't want rap (and several other presumed cultural affronts) anywhere near us, touching us, we don't want our children to EVER know what they say...

Wrong, with a big "W," as we used to say a million years ago.

Censorship is too much and sitting quiet is too little. It's an issue that clearly, for many of us is something important and merits real honesty in how it affects us and our children, not in our delusions of pure, sterile, SAFE childhood. No, we simply observe that, well, "garbage in, garbage out." If we allow garbage to go in, garbage will come out. It's not a matter of screaming to clap our hands on our 13 year old boy's ears before he hears it. We just want to say, hey, we've identified some garbage you might want to protect your children from hearing where you can protect them from hearing, and knowing why (age appropriately).

I support anyone who would become an activisit to go further with public awareness of it. If I had a magic wand, I wound send it all to a Happy Place to get an attitude adjustment (my garage







), and get it out, out, out of the mass communication venues, like radio, tv, and record sales. And I would do many, many things if I had a magic wand, but that is pure fantasy and wishful thinking, and I understand one can only go so far down that road toward "censorship," lest you end up losing completely.

As for women's songs that denigrate men, I say, it's the voices of the oppressed expressing themselves. I'd like a songlist of those if someone has one. I'd like to put them in my ipod for research hour. La, la, la, la, la... "and Earl had to die. Na na na na na na, na, na na..." Dixie Chicks.

Night... finally. Long, long weekend...

VF


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viewfinder* 
The thing that throws me again and again are the comments that come out swinging against censorship, in such a way that it presupposes that anyone here has implied or stated that we want to live in an insulated, padded room surrounded by bunnies, or whatever..................

Censorship is too much and sitting quiet is too little. It's an issue that clearly, for many of us is something important and merits real honesty in how it affects us and our children......

 The thing that throws me is the idea that the people who aren't refusing to allow their kids/teens to hear this music are just "sitting quiet". It's as if you think that because we handle this issue differently than you that we are pro misogynistic lyrics. Wrong with the big "W" indeed.

In other words-we aren't "sitting quiet" either.









Quote:

No, we simply observe that, well, "garbage in, garbage out." If we allow garbage to go in, garbage will come out.
 Okay, but some of us have observed that "garbage in/garbage out" is not a fate we are doomed to.


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elleystar* 
Maybe I'm going to regret bringing this up, but nobody has addressed it yet. What about songs that are rude/degrading towards men?

This is a point I was going to make about the media in general. Maybe it is different inthe US but the tv and print media here is full of negativity towards men.

When I read the definition of superman my first thought was 'People actually bother to do that?' followed by 'I think I would notice if someone did that to me long before a sheet got stuck to my back.....' Then in terms of men doing yukky things to women I remembered a Toyota ad here which shows a young man shutting his girlfriend's car door with his foot and the next day she gives him a lift and lets him out of the car over an open manhole which he falls into. There is another similar ad where the man does something to the car and she breaks his golfclubs.

That kind of advertising with the boot on the other foot is absolutely no-no here and people would be raving.

Modelling poor treatment of men or women is common in all walks of life and talking about how we feel about it with our children is better than telling them they can't see it or what they saw shouldn't have been seen or heard.


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## chellemarie (Jan 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viewfinder* 
The thing that throws me again and again are the comments that come out swinging against censorship, in such a way that *it presupposes that anyone here has implied or stated that we want to live in an insulated, padded room surrounded by bunnies, or whatever.* We don't want rap (and several other presumed cultural affronts) anywhere near us, touching us, we don't want our children to EVER know what they say...

Wrong, with a big "W," as we used to say a million years ago.

Censorship is too much and sitting quiet is too little. It's an issue that clearly, for many of us is something important and merits real honesty in how it affects us and our children, not in our delusions of pure, sterile, SAFE childhood. No, we simply observe that, well, "garbage in, garbage out." If we allow garbage to go in, garbage will come out. It's not a matter of screaming to clap our hands on our 13 year old boy's ears before he hears it. We just want to say, hey, we've identified some garbage you might want to protect your children from hearing where you can protect them from hearing, and knowing why (age appropriately).

I support anyone who would become an activisit to go further with public awareness of it. *If I had a magic wand, I wound send it all to a Happy Place to get an attitude adjustment (my garage







), and get it out, out, out of the mass communication venues, like radio, tv, and record sales.* And I would do many, many things if I had a magic wand, but that is pure fantasy and wishful thinking, and I understand one can only go so far down that road toward "censorship," lest you end up losing completely.

As for women's songs that denigrate men, I say, it's the voices of the oppressed expressing themselves. I'd like a songlist of those if someone has one. I'd like to put them in my ipod for research hour. La, la, la, la, la... "and Earl had to die. Na na na na na na, na, na na..." Dixie Chicks.

Night... finally. Long, long weekend...

VF

Emphasis mine.

Based on your comments here, I think you by and large hate men, Viewfinder.

orangefoot brings up an important point. Most current sitcoms feature a bumbling fool of a male with a strong, outspoken woman who keeps him in line. Others show men as completely incapable of controlling their desires. All of these things are unfair stereotypes. I don't believe most men feel or behave this way (though I think some are hiding behind what I call "Raymond Syndrome") and I don't believe that most men actively hate women.

Regarding the bold parts of the quote above: You WOULD like to smash it out, see our society rid of lyrics that you deem misogynistic. If you were given that opportunity, I would try to stop you. I think it is dangerous to limit anyone's speech because eventually, it will come back to US. "Well, if they can't say this, you can't say that." Also, It would save you a lot of time and energy because erasing it is impossible. Educating our kids to see what people are really saying between the lines is the best way to take the power out of speech like that.


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## prettypixels (Apr 13, 2006)

Has anyone actually looked up the lyrics to this song? He is actually saying OH, not HO. Which kind of changes everything, don't you think?

Here's his website...
http://www.souljaboytellem.com
Click "lyrics" and then "crank dat."

Also, check out some of the lyrics from "Soulja girl"

"She callin me
I'm callin her
She followin me
I'm followin her
My mama picked up the phone
She like "you got this girl sprung"
She got my spring too
She said "both of y'all dumb"
But I'm diggin' her
She diggin' me
And she so cute
And she so lovely"

Hardly mysoginistic, IMO.


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## prettypixels (Apr 13, 2006)

For anyone interested.. here is Soulja boy explaining how to do the dance...






And here is the actual video...


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## FancyD (Apr 22, 2005)

If she loves to dance, and likes hip hop, there are a TON of positive, socially-conscious groups that rock mad beats. I personally think that Soulja Boy sucks.









Now, I listened to NWA as a young teen and didn't even notice the lyrics. I LOVED the beats, and the MCing. I am much more aware of misogyny in rap as an adult, and purchase music accordingly.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *forthebest* 
If my child wanted to eat 20 big macs a day should I just let them in case I am censoring my childs wishes? Should I allow them to smoke , if they have started, voice my disagreement with it, issue some health warnings and just let them get on with it?

How old are your kids?

I thought we were talking about teens/preteens in this conversation (so, maybe age 10+), not saying to a three yr old "Hey, want to listen to this misogynistic song? let me define superman for ya..."

If your teen wants to eat 20 Big Macs, and you think thats terrible, you will do.....what?

If your teen starts smoking, and you think thats terrible, you will do.....what?

I dont want my 11 yr old to eat 20 Big Macs or start to smoke, but the only thing i can do is to give him enough information and empower him to make better choices. I can put limits on things if i want (like, i could tell him he has to buy Big Macs with his own money, or tell him i dont want smoking in the house) but beyond that....what really are you going to do? Lock your teenager in his room until he promises never to smoke again?

*That* is what i think people in this thread are saying. That they give their kids lots of information, perhaps their own insight or opinion, but in the end they recognize their child's ability to do what is best for themselves. Certainly you might provide more direction when the child is a toddler...but in the end the child will make their own decisions. You can't force them to believe what you believe. And i think if you provide them lots of info, keep the lines of communication open, and then let them go, you have a better chance of having a child that makes decision for himself and not just because of peer pressure or whatever.

Katherine


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *prettypixels* 
Has anyone actually looked up the lyrics to this song? He is actually saying OH, not HO. Which kind of changes everything, don't you think?

I thought the "OH" was in the "clean" lyrics, but the "HO" was in the "real" lyrics? Most songs with swearing, or other iffy language have a clean "radio" version and a less-clean "album" version. In some hip hop or rap songs they will throw a "Oh!" or a "Wha'?!" in there in place of the outlawed word.

I asked my son about this song yesterday, he said he had heard it, and that his friend across the street does the dance and listens to the song all the time. I told him about this thread, and then he wanted to know what the words meant....uhhhhhh....

Thats one thing i think might be an issue with taking a kid's innocent enjoyment of a song, and then suddenly defining very icky or adult words for him, that he had no desire to know at that point. Now i regret even bringing it up to him...i'll never forget when i was little, my friend and i were singing "Like a Virgin....hey!" and her dad flipped out, "Do you know what you are singing?!? Thats a bad song!!!"....we didnt really know what "virgin" meant (well, she was Catholic so maybe had the reference point of virgin mary)...we were just singing along to a song on the radio. And he turned it "dirty"....so i think maybe sometimes in an attempt to keep our kids "innocent" (not letting them listen to "bad" songs), we actually tear away some of their "innocence" in the process.

Katherine


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## prettypixels (Apr 13, 2006)

Katherine, I don't know; the lyrics are on his website and there is no mention of a dirty version. Also if you watch the instructional video, the "superman" is quite clearly a dance move. Bend over, arms back, like superman flying through the air.

So IMO this is much ado about nothing.

Now there are some songs that really disturb me out there... but this is not one of them.

That's a great point about Like a Virgin! Although I think I knew what it meant. OTOH I sang "Material Girl," except I thought it was "Cheerio Girl." Hahaha!


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## forthebest (Jun 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane* 
How old are your kids?

I thought we were talking about teens/preteens in this conversation (so, maybe age 10+), not saying to a three yr old "Hey, want to listen to this misogynistic song? let me define superman for ya..."

If your teen wants to eat 20 Big Macs, and you think thats terrible, you will do.....what?

If your teen starts smoking, and you think thats terrible, you will do.....what?

I dont want my 11 yr old to eat 20 Big Macs or start to smoke, but the only thing i can do is to give him enough information and empower him to make better choices. I can put limits on things if i want (like, i could tell him he has to buy Big Macs with his own money, or tell him i dont want smoking in the house) but beyond that....what really are you going to do? Lock your teenager in his room until he promises never to smoke again?

*That* is what i think people in this thread are saying. That they give their kids lots of information, perhaps their own insight or opinion, but in the end they recognize their child's ability to do what is best for themselves. Certainly you might provide more direction when the child is a toddler...but in the end the child will make their own decisions. You can't force them to believe what you believe. And i think if you provide them lots of info, keep the lines of communication open, and then let them go, you have a better chance of having a child that makes decision for himself and not just because of peer pressure or whatever.

Katherine

I honestly think that nobody here has suggested or would lock their kids in their room cos they want to do something we as their parents disagree with, I think we are all a bit more open-minded than that and it is not really possible to do that unless you are a complete bampot who actually thinks that is a good way to parent. As for making my kids believe what I believe well, good grief I may as well have given birth to sheep. But if my kids left home believing it is ok to debase women I'd feel I had significantly failed as a parent. Thats not to say that listening and dancing to soulja boy will render every or any child a misogynist. What the problem imo is about these women-hating songs is that slowly we are becoming immune to the diatribe voiced in these lyrics, we've all heard the stuff, 'bla bla bla bitch, gonna bla bla bla you bitch,ho etc etc, sorry can't even think of the words right now and they are so offensive I don't think I can put em down here. My kids would hear that stuff and be offended, at least my daughters would, my son would probably smirk and I would say wow thats a really nice way to treat women, sarcasm. I just feel a bit unnerved not to mention angry that we are being bombarded with this stuff and kids are dancing around to it like it was...cool! Soulja boy is very tame of course compared to a lot of stuff, they've edited it so it can be consumed by younger kids, I guess, but at the end of the day, the message is clear, once you have deciphered it of course







, treating women like trash is acceptable and groovalicious and indeed will be promoted to an ever-widening, ever younger audience and I reckon as parents we need to oppose it but that is just my opinion and as an individual I have suffered greatly at the hands of misogynists so it really hits a bum-note with me. I do think that as parents we should at least oppose it as we would maybe not buy stuff from shops that get rich of the backs of poor, badly treated workers, not a huge problem for me as I am too poor to buy much stuff which is fine with me. I grew up in the uk in the 70's through the punk era and I only censored, yep censored, one song in case my foster mother heard it, it was bring on the nubiles by the stranglers because of the f-word hehe and it fair used to bug me having to jump up to do that, I think she came in one day and said it's ok I heard it! aargh! Most of the rest I listened to was just noise to her, uk subs, clash, poison girls, damned,x-ray spex,ian dury,cure, crass etc. Also all the rock music and blues I could get my hands on. I still listen to all that stuff today.In the context of most rap music I feel it's not very intelligent and uses women to promote it's unworthy message. I'd imagine no woman on this site agrees with misogyny, maybe for some people it's just becoming an unavoidable part of growing up in a world that cashes in on everthing especially that which will hurt others. Also the mass-marketing is something to think about, maybe stick something else on before the song is indellibly imprinted on our brains forever but honestly I doubt soulja boy will be played in 20 years time like say the stones but I wonder how far lyrics will have gone by then to further debase women, scary. In my day lyrics were all about miners strikes, anti-authorities, that *** Thatcher, anger and disgust about women and children being abused, breaking free from the chains of the last generations and all that oppression, singing about sticking sheets to your ho's back with your sperm seems like a mighty step backwards.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *forthebest* 
I honestly think that nobody here has suggested or would lock their kids in their room cos they want to do something we as their parents disagree with, I think we are all a bit more open-minded than that and it is not really possible to do that unless you are a complete bampot who actually thinks that is a good way to parent. As for making my kids believe what I believe well, good grief I may as well have given birth to sheep. But if my kids left home believing it is ok to debase women I'd feel I had significantly failed as a parent.

Okay. But you *did* say:

Quote:

If my child wanted to eat 20 big macs a day should I just let them in case I am censoring my childs wishes? Should I allow them to smoke , if they have started, voice my disagreement with it, issue some health warnings and just let them get on with it?
you seem to be saying, from that quote, that moms who let their kids listen to "misogynistic" lyrics, even though they've voiced disagreement, are somehow doing the wrong thing. You ask "Should just let them?" as if there is an alternative....so what i am asking you, is....is there an alternative? Some parents would forbid it outright. Many moms here have posted *why* they would not do that, why they would "just let them" (which doesnt really describe what is actually occurring...there is probably lots of discussion and learning going on)....if you are uncomfortable with allowing your child to make the choice to listen to something (or eat something or smoke something) that *you* find offensive, what is your alternative? This isnt a hypothetical, i really want to know how you handle such situations (when you and your child disagree) if it differs from how UnschoolnMa (for example) handles it.

Katherine


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## hellyaellen (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chiromamma* 
Who thinks up this stuff? So weird to have a term for such a ridiculous act.









:


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## happyhippiemama (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FancyD* 
If she loves to dance, and likes hip hop, there are a TON of positive, socially-conscious groups that rock mad beats. I personally think that Soulja Boy sucks.









A bit OT, but I'm always looking for recommendations!! *hint, hint*


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## sparklefairy (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 








For a lot of songs, once I hear the Weird Al version the "regular" version is too boring. For some of them, the regular version also doesn't scan well enough or have enough of a melody.

Back on topic, there is a huge difference between not buying something yourself and censorship. Wishing for the magical ability to make artists stop producing misogynist music is not the same as wishing that the misogynist music would be outlawed.

Interestingly, the misogynist music problem isn't new or limited to one genre:
from the 1930's "hello my baby, hello my honey....if you refuse me, honey you'll lose me"
And from the world of top-40's pop:




 check out the commentary on Sugar Ray.

(The guy reading it is hysterical! This site is similarly funny, but not kid friendly: http://www.raptranslations.com/ )

There's also "Run for your Life" by the Beatles (a more deadly version of "Before He Cheats" I guess) and "Under My Thumb" by the Stones.


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## forthebest (Jun 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane* 
Okay. But you *did* say:

you seem to be saying, from that quote, that moms who let their kids listen to "misogynistic" lyrics, even though they've voiced disagreement, are somehow doing the wrong thing. You ask "Should just let them?" as if there is an alternative....so what i am asking you, is....is there an alternative? Some parents would forbid it outright. Many moms here have posted *why* they would not do that, why they would "just let them" (which doesnt really describe what is actually occurring...there is probably lots of discussion and learning going on)....if you are uncomfortable with allowing your child to make the choice to listen to something (or eat something or smoke something) that *you* find offensive, what is your alternative? This isnt a hypothetical, i really want to know how you handle such situations (when you and your child disagree) if it differs from how UnschoolnMa (for example) handles it.

Katherine

Well, no I am not saying moms who let their dc listen to soulja boy are doing something wrong, who the heck am I to judge another? It all depends on what we are disagreeing with, if my kid wants to buy a £40 dress because everyone else wants it I would say to her you are being ripped off but she will probably go out and buy it, it's her cash, she works for it. I have spent enough time and energy informing my dc about stuff like health etc enough time cooking nutritious meals on a low budget for 15 yrs, if she goes out and eats garbage on a regular basis she will feel the ill-effects of that and she doesn't get it at home so she can come home to good meals. If my child was listening to stuff like soulja boy and I heard it I wouldn't even know what the lyrics were about because they've ben 'cleaned up' but if the lyrics were not hiding and it was bla bla bla ho I would deffo suggest alternative listening to them and explain why, I wouldn't bin tho I would like to, but it would not be in my earshot just like the tons of adverts on tv and crappy tv programs will not be a backdrop to my indoor life, my dc don't listen to stuff like soulja boy, it's not to their taste so I can't say what I would do if one of my dc were say constantly listening to stuff that debases women, I reckon I would not be very happy being subjected to it, I'm just glad my dc are not influenced by that stuff so much that they actually want to listen to it. My eldest dd listened to it on youtube last night after asking me what I was writing and she just looked perplexed, it's such a duff song imo,I guess we all have different tastes, but ultimately I would not encourage my dc to listen to that crap, in fact I would discourage them and my dc are free spirits to do and listen to what they want and my dc would not want to listen to that stuff simply because it's sexist, they are quite discerning in their music tastes. I know someone who got rid of every barbie doll their child was given, that was their choice as parents I certainly didn't think oh my gosh censorship, that was just their choice as parents. I know another parent who would not use the word 'sex' in front of their kids and they were at least 8, I thought that a bit wierd but again their choice as parents, just as it is a parents choice to allow or not allow their dc to listen to soulja boy.


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## sparklefairy (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viewfinder* 
As for women's songs that denigrate men, I say, it's the voices of the oppressed expressing themselves. I'd like a songlist of those if someone has one. I'd like to put them in my ipod for research hour. La, la, la, la, la... "and Earl had to die. Na na na na na na, na, na na..." Dixie Chicks.

Night... finally. Long, long weekend...

VF

Goodbye Earl is a little different -- Wanda was acting in self-defense after "Earl walked right through that restraining order and put her in intensive care." Mary Ann didn't really have a good defense and the smug tone does bother me. It makes me think of the part in Fried Green Tomatoes when they kill what's-her-name's husband and hide the body in a BBQ (why can't I think of her name?) That was handled in more of a "did what we had to do" way than a "yippee look what we got away with!" way.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *forthebest* 
it's not to their taste so I can't say what I would do if one of my dc were say constantly listening to stuff that debases women, I reckon I would not be very happy being subjected to it

For the most part my kids and I have found ways around that issue. If I don't want to hear or see something they are listening to or watching they take it to headphones, or watch/listen to it in another room if it's at all possible. That way they can listen to what they want, and no one has to be uncomfortable. It's all about respect.









Quote:

just as it is a parents choice to allow or not allow their dc to listen to soulja boy.
Many parents make that choice for their kids, but I don't feel that it's my choice to make.


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## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

I don't care for misogyny, not "men."

There are plenty of women misogynists, you may be surprised to learn. I'm not.

I am so glad to have heard the intelligent commentary by forthebest and others on this thread. Thank you for weighing in here. I hear you; your remarks make absolute sense.

I appreciate the type of parenting such as USM, and MarineWife and others espouse using. Educate, discuss, share with your teenagers. (Don't tell, but that is how us others are, too, clearly, but it's more fun to argue with us if you believe that we're carrying picket signs at record companies after we lock our children in the house, windows blacked-out, so, go on, continue; you are anyway, so you might as well have my invitation.)

"You must hate men." Hillary Rodham Clinton, how do you make that leap? Have you read all of my other threads or something?

VF


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viewfinder* 
I appreciate the type of parenting such as USM, and MarineWife and others espouse using. Educate, discuss, share with your teenagers. (Don't tell, *but that is how us others are, too, clearly*, but it's more fun to argue with us if you believe that we're carrying picket signs at record companies after we lock our children in the house, windows blacked-out, so, go on, continue; you are anyway, so you might as well have my invitation.)


Slightly OT: I don't want to derail this interesting thread, but what's up with the inflammatory posting style? _"Its more fun to argue"_ and _"You might as well have my invitation"_ ?? I don't really see those types of phrases as all that helpful to discussion.

Anyway, regarding the part I bolded... It's not clear at all that you are parenting or approaching the same way me and Marinewife are. If so, I am not sure we'd be debating this issue.









So let me just come right out and ask the question plainly then: _Is your child free to listen to music that you personally do not like/value/approve of or would you not allow them to buy it, have it, or listen to it?_ That's really what it comes down to here I think.


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## theretohere (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viewfinder* 
And how, may I ask, is our society going to shift away from it? Does it have an appointment to shift?

I would suggest that society has an "impetus" to shift, an impetus fed by ME, saying, "Hey, NO MORE of this. It's not nice, it hurts our society, stop it."

And racism, as you said, is NOT over... no, and it likely never will be as much as most people would like it to be (over).

BUT, it has weakened enormously, and shows signs of weakening a LOT more, as it should. Racist images and sounds in the media have lessened incredibly... you had to be alive before the Civil Rights Movement to appreciate the _enormity_ of the changes. Do you think that racist images and recordings only started to disappear AFTER the civil rights movement, or after the "shift," however you see that?

The businesses that distribute these sounds and images respond to the language of the dollar: if the public ain't buyin'; the studio/record company ain't sellin.' It starts with public outcry: Don't buy these misogynistic products purposely and deliberately. And don't defend them... good grief, they've really got you where they want you then. It makes one a handmaiden for misogynists.

Oh, btw, misogyny isn't a little men's club downtown with weekly harmless fun and annual do-gooder missions: Misogyny is woman-hating. Hate. Hate. Not dislike, not criticism, not the good-natured, "Women. Can't live with em, can't live without em," guys from the block attitude about his beloved wife, who he really loves, admires and respects. It's a man who views vagina-bearing human beings as pieces of sh-- to do with, or not, whatever he wants, from using them as a kleenex to masturbate into to a piece of traction on the highway of HIS LIFE. Objects of love... NOOOO, a misogynist does not understand or feel LOVE as we know it. They have want and don't want. He uses words and his body to hurt, deface, bring down, dehumanize women. And when it is done with music, or dance, or pictures, or movies, I AM NOT BUYING. And I am not going to lob that enormous, flame-loaded spear at my daughter's heart by simply discussing with her that... that what... that some men who masquerade as being nice, and cool, and with it, and who may even be hot and attractive and even SWEET in a conversation, are singing out to the world a so-called SONG, or TRACK, to the world where they say these absolutely insulting things about women, generally, and they want to or do really nasty things to them that hurt them and make them cry, or where they actually talk like they want to kill her, and exactly how they want to kill her. And don't listen to it, or be wierded out at all if the little boy or young man you have a serious crush on starts saying those same words out loud while he's grooving along with his IPOD... they don't really MEAN that."

"Then why do they say it, Mom? Why don't they say what they MEAN, then, Mom and Dad? Can I have a peanut butter sandwich, Daddy? What are young men thinking about... Dad? Do you think that way? Thanks for taking off the crusts, Daddy. Do you ever say that or do that to Mom? Will someone want to do that to me?















:uke

That's where her thinking is going to take her to. I'm against that. I am crying out. Shut that stuff down. Don't buy it, don't defend it, don't explain it: don't put it into their mp3 player. It's not that hard. Other people can still get it, listen to it, let your kid listen to it, throw a party with it and invite your kids, and YOUR decision to PARENT the heck out of the situation as much as you can if that is only to not allow them to play it at home or to load it into the mp3 player that you bought them, will impact your children's growth and maturity in a really good way, as good as the growth and maturity that might--maybe--come if you just give them the reins on it, which imo, for children in elementary school for sure, is not a good thing at all. They're not ready, they cannot comprehend without some psychic damage what it's all about and what it means about a lot of things. I feel my child is really deep, smart, aware, precocious... and all that stuff, but she is a child with a child's development. She is still under my protection for this reason, so says Nature and Society.

VF









:


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## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *theretohere* 







:

And look, I already said it! (in the reference to my own lengthy post that theretohere quoted. I'm saying "yeah that" to basically my own post, and "yeah that," to theretohere who apparently resonated with what I said. Thanks theretohere.

Yes, _that_, UnschoolnMa.

VF


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viewfinder* 
And look, I already said it! Thanks theretohere.

Yes, that, UnschoolnMa.

VF


Actually, i think UnschoolnMa had a very good question, that you didnt even come close to answering, which was this:

Quote:

Anyway, regarding the part I bolded... It's not clear at all that you are parenting or approaching the same way me and Marinewife are. If so, I am not sure we'd be debating this issue.
Katherine


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viewfinder* 
And look, I already said it! Thanks theretohere.

Yes, that, UnschoolnMa.

VF

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you are "yeah that" about here.







It's really late though, so it's very possible that I am just missing it.

I asked: _Is your child free to listen to music that you personally do not like/value/approve of *or* would you not allow them to buy it, have it, or listen to it?_


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
I'm sorry but I don't understand what you are "yeah that" about here.







It's really late though, so it's very possible that I am just missing it.

I asked: _Is your child free to listen to music that you personally do not like/value/approve of *or* would you not allow them to buy it, have it, or listen to it?_










I don't get it, either. I don't see an answer to the question.

Here's what was said in a previous post, though.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viewfinder*
Shut that stuff down. Don't buy it, don't defend it, don't explain it: don't put it into their mp3 player...not allow them to play it at home or to load it into the mp3 player that you bought them

I think that says it all. We do not parent the same way.

I think it's important, too, to point out, as a few others have, that we are not generally talking about elementary school children here. I know that preteen is sometimes defined as young as 9. In my mind, I think of preteen no younger than 10. Yes, that's still elementary school in some places, middle school in others, and different from a 5 or 7 or 8yo.

I have a had a group of 16-19yos in my house for a few days now (loving it, btw!) so I asked them all about the song. After getting over the initial, "ewww. I am NOT talking about this with my friend's mom!"







they all said they don't listen to it. They don't like it. They think it's crap. I asked if they knew what the words meant and, to my surprise, although they all agreed that it was sexual in nature, and not what might be considered normal sex, they didn't know the definition of supermanning that has been presented here. Then I went a little further and asked them if they would knowingly listen to and support songs that glamourize violence against women. They were all disgusted by that and say they would not.

My oldest ds listened to a lot of what I considered very disturbing music when he was a preteen (10-12). I never forbid it, although many times I asked him not to play it around me because I did not like it. He did not turn into some kind of violent deviant. I think it does a serious disservice to our young people to assume they can't handle such things.


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 
I never forbid it, although many times I asked him not to play it around me because I did not like it. He did not turn into some kind of violent deviant. I think it does a serious disservice to our young people to assume they can't handle such things.

My boys play some games that have music which makes me physically anxious. I just ask them to turn the sound down after a while. I wouldn't ask them not to play the game.

I'm beginning to see this thread as being more about our hope that our children will 'inherit' our values whichever point on the continuum and this applies to so many situations with growing young people like the thread on Lactivism about our children breastfeeding our grandchildren.

Ultimately we are nurturing people who have their own thoughts and feeling and all we can do is offer guidance, support and love. What are you telling your teen if you remove their right to choose what to listen to? It reminds me of those houses with lots of cupboard and drawer locks where I wonder if there is a magic age when they will be deemed unecessary.


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## phreedom (Apr 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
My Dd loves the song, and maybe more importantly the dance to the song. It's extremely popular right now. Just check Youtube for about 8,000 different versions.









We talk about lyrics a lot in our family and this song is no exception. My Dd is aware that many songs she finds catchy have lyrics that talk about things she personally may not value, but in many cases she can seperate the lyrics from enjoying the sound or beat of a song. She doesn't think of/ refer to women as "ho's" and she wouldn't think too highly of someone who did, but none of that is necessary to enjoy the song. For example, I really like "Soldier" by Destiny's Child. I find the lyrics a bit silly, but the song overall always has caught my attention and made me feel happy or upbeat. That's a good thing right? Hearing lyrics doesn't mean we have to agree with what they are talking about.

Everyone has their own limits of course, and they are likely going to be different for everyone. We don't censor media, but we do talk about it a lot. It's an interesting subject.









Yeah this.

I'm one of those people that like some songs for the beat. It's what I like to listen to in club and what I like to "dance" to (it thats what you want to call it







) ) When I go back and actually listen to the lyrics it's a little embarrassing to admit I enjoyed dancing to it at one time.

My DSD loves that song, knows the lyrics and the dance...but has absolutely no idea what it means. She talks about boys that go around slapping the girls backs hollering that they "Supermanned that ho" (rolls eyes...real mature). I wanted to explain to her why that isn't okay...and what the meaning of it is...but my husband told me no. She's too young to know that. She's 12.

I dont' agree but whatever...not my place to step over him.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phreedom* 

I dont' agree but whatever...not my place to step over him.

Maybe you could bring it to the attention of the school (what the boys are doing AND the meaning).


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phreedom* 
My DSD loves that song, knows the lyrics and the dance...but has absolutely no idea what it means. She talks about boys that go around slapping the girls backs hollering that they "Supermanned that ho" (rolls eyes...real mature). I wanted to explain to her why that isn't okay...and what the meaning of it is...but my husband told me no. She's too young to know that. She's 12.

I dont' agree but whatever...not my place to step over him.

That's too bad. IMO, once someone is exposed to something they should get an explanation regardless of their age, especially if it's something that is potentially abusive. Are the boys doing this to her? You can always adjust the explanation based on age and maturity.

I agree that it might be a good idea to bring the behavior of the boys to the attention of someone at the school. In the schools my ds went to, it wouldn't matter what the meaning behind the behavior was, it wouldn't be tolerated because of the zero tolerance policy about touching. That's one very good way to show everyone that what is espoused in the song is not acceptable.


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## OhDang (Jan 30, 2008)

the kid who wrote the song is young, in his teens. I really don't think it is that big of a deal if they are listening to the censored version


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## pajamajes (Feb 1, 2008)

supersoak that ho is actually pretty self explanatory. its not like kids dont already know what its talkin about. and if they don't know then it doesn't hurt them b/c they don't know.


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## onelilguysmommy (May 11, 2005)

okay am i the only oen who doesnt see this as a huge issue?

i see how this superman thing is, since the description alludes to the girl not wanting it..but other than that...im just not going to get riled up about semen being on a body as long as its cool with whoever its being put on, sorry.

the calling women hos thing is a problem, yes but the other stuff being discussed..







:


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## StrongBeliever (Apr 24, 2007)

AHHHH! I've only read about half of the responses to this, but I couldn't stop myself from commenting RIGHT NOW. I'm horrified! Seeing so many mothers here say things like

"Remember the XYZ dirty sings from our generation and we are okay..."
"Kids are too little to understand XYZ nasty innuendo..."
"They are just listening to the beat, not the words..."
... And other such nonsense.

First, I'd like to say that we DIDN'T turn out okay. If our parents, and we as parents weren't influenced negatively by the exploitation of something meant to be BEAUTIFUL then why are people our age and their children, OUR children, still coming up with such terribly horrible lyrics?... Why are the masses still entertained by this garbage? People are effected by this, whether they know it or not, or are willing to admit it or not. Which brings me to this...

MDC is a place, I'll assume, where many of us understand that the environment we live in effects us on a subconscious level. For instance the child surrounded by darkness, even if he/she "understands" that their is light, will still grow to reflect darkness. The child surrounded by light will always reflect light. Knowing this how can we expose our children to such crap when we KNOW that it is negative? How can we condone that? I'll take a moment and be paranoid for the sake of my children... Think about how music has been used a weapon. I don't know the exact scenario, but somewhere heavy metal was blasted 24/7 and it worked to drive the people they were after half crazy. I'm sure the people who were on the defense "knew it was just music" but eventually the negativity with which it was delivered got to them. And we all know about subliminal messages and how things imprint upon the mind... If our eyes are open, they can't not see something, and if we can hear, we have no filter for what is heard. Post traumatic stress syndrome anyone? Hearins something horrible or seeing something awful, and not being bothered until many years down the road? Knowing these things, how can we stand by and say that our children won't be negatively effected, that they are "just listening to the beat"? *shudder*

Now I'm on a bit of a rant, and some of that might not fit together cohesively, so please don't flame me on a technicality, but think about it. REALLY. If we allow things like this in our children's lives, and stand by letting the media make our decisions for us, let our children's peers make the choices, then it will only get worse. Society is as screwed up as it is today for a reason... Complacency. Makes me want to vomit. Hooray to the mother's here who stood up and said it's not acceptable. For the rest of you... Forget about what is politically correct and think about the innocence of your pure sweet children being smashed over a stupid stupid song with a mildly catchy beat.


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## StrongBeliever (Apr 24, 2007)

A note about giving our kids the info to make informed descisions. That's great, by all means do that. They'll need that guidance to deal with the fact that our world today is largely full of ickiness. But in no way should society be allowing this to go on. We shouldn't be standing by saying "they'll get exposed sooner or later". We should be working TODAY to make sure that the world our grand babies will live in, and their babies after them and so on, won't be full of such terrible terrible things. I know life has it's bad moments, but we don't need to be generating them... Profiting off of the generation of negativity. It's NOT okay, on any level.


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## chellemarie (Jan 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StrongBeliever* 
"Remember the XYZ dirty sings from our generation and we are okay..."
"Kids are too little to understand XYZ nasty innuendo..."
"They are just listening to the beat, not the words..."
... And other such nonsense.

First, I'd like to say that we DIDN'T turn out okay. If our parents, and we as parents weren't influenced negatively by the exploitation of something meant to be BEAUTIFUL then why are people our age and their children, OUR children, still coming up with such terribly horrible lyrics?... Why are the masses still entertained by this garbage? People are effected by this, whether they know it or not, or are willing to admit it or not. Which brings me to this...

Actually, I think I turned out mostly okay and at some point, what my children say and do is their choice. I hope to have some positive influence there, but I am not programming robots. I'm raising individual human beings.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StrongBeliever* 
MDC is a place, I'll assume, where many of us understand that the environment we live in effects us on a subconscious level. *For instance the child surrounded by darkness, even if he/she "understands" that their is light, will still grow to reflect darkness. The child surrounded by light will always reflect light.* Knowing this how can we expose our children to such crap when we KNOW that it is negative? How can we condone that?

Emphasis mine. Uh, what? I think there are plenty of people who have lived through a lot of direct, physical, purposeful abuse and neglect who survive and thrive and do amazing, inspiring things.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StrongBeliever* 
I'll take a moment and be paranoid for the sake of my children... Think about how music has been used a weapon. I don't know the exact scenario, but somewhere heavy metal was blasted 24/7 and it worked to drive the people they were after half crazy. I'm sure the people who were on the defense "knew it was just music" but eventually the negativity with which it was delivered got to them.

Are you talking about psychological warfare? That's a pretty extreme example to put up against Crank That by Soulja Boy. For that to hold any water, you'll have to provide the specific instance.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StrongBeliever* 
And we all know about subliminal messages and how things imprint upon the mind... If our eyes are open, they can't not see something, and if we can hear, we have no filter for what is heard. Post traumatic stress syndrome anyone? Hearins something horrible or seeing something awful, and not being bothered until many years down the road? Knowing these things, how can we stand by and say that our children won't be negatively effected, that they are "just listening to the beat"? *shudder*

How can you properly prepare your child for living in this society as a well-adjusted, productive adult if you're putting blinders on him? Ignoring something, shoving it under the carpet, pretending it doesn't exist does NOT change the fact that it is there. Addressing it, explaining why you don't like it, why you hope they won't support it with their own time and money - those are the keys to change.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StrongBeliever* 
If we allow things like this in our children's lives, and stand by letting the media make our decisions for us, let our children's peers make the choices, then it will only get worse. Society is as screwed up as it is today for a reason... Complacency. Makes me want to vomit. Hooray to the mother's here who stood up and said it's not acceptable. For the rest of you... Forget about what is politically correct and think about the innocence of your pure sweet children being smashed over a stupid stupid song with a mildly catchy beat.

1. I don't let the media make my decisions.
2. I don't let my children's peers make my choices.
3. I'm involved, not complacent.
4. I'm hardly politically correct. I have trouble seeing how that fits in here. In fact, the only way I can squash it in is if I see my side of this argument as being very NON-PC.
5. My children are precious to me, but since they're human beings living in a world filled with other human beings, they are not pure and innocent. "Soulja Boy" has nothing to do with that, either.


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## StrongBeliever (Apr 24, 2007)

You're not entirely off-base ChelleMarie, but I'd like to make a few points. This is all very subjective stuff, and while I did rant a bit and can't expect everyone to agree, I don't think I went overboard.

You're right that children are individuals and will make their own choices, but each and every thing that happens in their lives colors their choices. It is our responsibility as parents, and as humans who decide the direction of where the world is going, to make sure that our kids know that degradation of women and exploitation of sex is WRONG WRONG WRONG.

You are absolutely right that there are plenty of people who have survived terrible incidents to live wonderful lives, doing great things. I never meant to imply otherwise. The point I was trying to make is that we can't just shrug off our children listening to this stuff, because it STICKS, even if only a little. Nothing is truly in one ear and out the other. If we can spare our children more negativity, why wouldn't we?

Is it really that far removed from psychological warfare? When our children are being barraged with sex exploitation every where they turn? Cartoons, music, movies, magazines... It's everywhere all the time. Soulja Boy is just one of the sad sorry pieces in the whole mess. Do I really need to provide some scientific study to prove what is obvious to anybody willing to open their eyes? Something is decidedly wrong with the way things are today when we won't believe what's right before our eyes until someone with "authority" tell us so.

Well adjusted and productive? *gag* What do you mean by that anyway? I don't want my children to be well adjusted to filth and perpetuating the cycle of negativity. I certainly don't advocate putting blinders on children, BUT I do believe that they need some sheltering from all the garbage that's out there. We can inform our children and help them learn what they need to be good, honest people without letting them listen to junk. Will they hear junk anyway? Probably so, but when they do we tell them that's what it is and why... Just like so many mamas have already said. I get it that we can't spare our children every single hurt. What I'm saying is that we shouldn't sugar coat and soften the edges... When they encounter crap, let them know how truly horrifying it is.

Where "political correctness" comes in, at least in my eyes, is that people may be afraid to tell their children, or say in a forum, or speak up wherever, and say that a song like that is disgusting and stupid. Pointless. Afraid that it will be construed one way or the other and that someone will be offended. Afraid to direct their children away from it, that they will be labeled different("On no, that kid isn't well adjusted! *gasp*). That's my own perspective though.

The way I see it, our society is ill... Sick and dying. If we keep pretending that it's just something that we have to deal with, medicate the symptoms, then it will continue to die, slow and painful. I say kill it or cure it. But I suppose that makes me "extreme". Well, I extremely love my children... What else can I say?


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## chellemarie (Jan 17, 2003)

#1
You are all over the place, Strong Believer.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StrongBeliever* 
Nothing is truly in one ear and out the other. If we can spare our children more negativity, why wouldn't we?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *StrongBeliever* 
What I'm saying is that we shouldn't sugar coat and soften the edges... When they encounter crap, let them know how truly horrifying it is.

So are you going to spare them or are you going to draw them a picture? Which is it?

#2

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StrongBeliever* 
Well adjusted and productive? *gag* What do you mean by that anyway?

Raising healthy, happy, capable, confident, reasonable adult humans is my overall, big-picture goal of parenting. I know. "*gag*"

#3

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StrongBeliever* 
Do I really need to provide some scientific study to prove what is obvious to anybody willing to open their eyes? Something is decidedly wrong with the way things are today when we won't believe what's right before our eyes until someone with "authority" tell us so.

Yes, you do if you are going to cite specific examples to form your argument. I'm not believing what's right in front of YOUR eyes. I see things my way. You see things yours. The way you see things scares me.

#4

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StrongBeliever* 
*Where "political correctness" comes in, at least in my eyes, is that people may be afraid to tell their children, or say in a forum, or speak up wherever, and say that a song like that is disgusting and stupid.* Pointless. Afraid that it will be construed one way or the other and that someone will be offended. Afraid to direct their children away from it, that they will be labeled different("On no, that kid isn't well adjusted! *gasp*). That's my own perspective though.

Emphasis mine. I think that most of us who don't ban this sort of material outright ARE speaking up about it. We are talking to our kids about it. We're not afraid to ask, "What do you think he's really saying there?" and follow up with a discussion of why we think that's good or bad or otherwise. Who could possibly be offended by me having a thoughtful discussion with my kid about words and pictures?

I wouldn't say I direct my children toward negative messages in the media we consume. I don't block it out, though. I leave room for talking, discussing, deciding.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

The reason I brought up the stuff about the other songs is to try to put some perspective on this. We are talking about just a song. I don't really see that as a big deal. I don't see a song as influential to me or my children as our own minds are. At every generation there is an uproar over music. Parents freak out. The kids listen to it anyway. Then those kids grow up and do the same with their kids. It's a silly cycle. Maybe if we talked about it instead of trying to forbid it, it wouldn't continue. That was my point. I really don't understand why people put so much importance on a song. It makes me think that most people don't think we (humans) are capable of critical thinking and keeping ourselves from turning into sheep that just follow the flock.

I do see the importance of the subject of sexual violence and the degredation of other human beings. That's where my open, honest and respectful communication with my children comes into play when they are exposed to things that I find offensive or just plain wrong.


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## StrongBeliever (Apr 24, 2007)

I said just what I meant... You can take things out of context all day to make me look like a kook, but it doesn't make what I said crazy. Keep as many nasties from your kids as you can, and when they do run into it, make sure they understand that it's nasty, even if everybody else thinks it's cool.

If well adjusted and productive equates towing the line and hopping off the cliff with the rest of the lemmings, that's the last thing I want my kiddos to be.

It doesn't take a scientist to see that our kids are being barraged with crap from every direction from many different sources. We're both entitled to our opinions though.


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## StrongBeliever (Apr 24, 2007)

*smile* Gee... My lemmings comment must throw me in with the bunch that fears the sheepify-ing(what a word, eh?) of the people? Sorry for that. I just think it really stinks that there is so much ugliness out there that our kids have to learn to protect themselves against, lest perpetuate it themselves. I wish the best for everyone's children in that.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:

Where "political correctness" comes in, at least in my eyes, is that people may be afraid to tell their children, or say in a forum, or speak up wherever, and say that a song like that is disgusting and stupid. Pointless. Afraid that it will be construed one way or the other and that someone will be offended. Afraid to direct their children away from it, that they will be labeled different("On no, that kid isn't well adjusted! *gasp*). That's my own perspective though.
I would not speak to my child in the way you describe, not because i am "afraid"...indeed, the prevailing wisdom in both mainstream parenting circles and here at MDC is to censor, control, berate, diminish, etc etc (just check out the many threads about keeping girls away from the "evils" of Bratz dolls)...i dont speak to my child about his interests as "junk" or being "disgusting, pointless, stupid"...because i love and respect my child too much to dismiss his interests in that way. Whether its a rap song, or a bratz doll, or a cupcake, or a videogame, i think its far more respectful to my child to listen, discuss, etc than to restrict and control. I believe THAT brings far more "light" into my child's life than any sheltering i could do, and i believe that being respected allows that "light" to grow within him, so that he is essentially immune to the "darkness" of which you speak.

I guess i just find the tone of your posts so offensive and insulting....you truly seem to believe that those of us who have chosen a different path in relating to our children have done so out of fear and a desire to conform to society, rather than because we honestly believe that this is the best way to parent our kids.....and if that is true (that you think we're just lemmings)....then you couldnt be further off base.

Katherine


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## StrongBeliever (Apr 24, 2007)

I apologize if my passion on the subject is offensive. I also apologize if I get on my high horse and use terms that are less than bunny fresh... I suppose there I need to practice what I preach. Ah, the foresight of youth. But I won't apologize for my intention. I'd like for everyone to have a loving, gentle childhood... Maybe if my rantings get one more mom to switch the channel on the radio, that's great. It might be easier to swallow if I could say it a little sweeter, but it was early in the morning and passion doesn't always leave time to edit for sensibilities. And maybe my rantings will achieve nothing, but I stood up for what I believe in, and that counts for something to me. I don't mean to insult anyone, nor do I mean to point the finger... Forgive my generalizations.


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StrongBeliever* 
I'd like for everyone to have a loving, gentle childhood... .


I will go out on a limb and say that nobody her feels any differently, but teenagers have so much more exposure to the world and thus the media is a big part of this. Are your teens forbidden from listening to music you disprove of?

eta: if so how would you manage that?


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StrongBeliever* 
I apologize if my passion on the subject is offensive. I also apologize if I get on my high horse and use terms that are less than bunny fresh... I suppose there I need to practice what I preach. Ah, the foresight of youth. But I won't apologize for my intention. I'd like for everyone to have a loving, gentle childhood... Maybe if my rantings get one more mom to switch the channel on the radio, that's great.

In my opinion, you've really missed the point that many moms on this thread have been trying to make.

First, i thought we were talking about older kids and teens here....like ages 10 and up. Its not the same as intentionally exposing your three yr old to "offensive" music (though i suppose an argument can be made for that too...but that wasnt this thread)....how does "switching the channel" help your teen develop the skills necessary to discern "good" vs "bad" messages (which is quite objective and ultimately something each one of us, children included, will eventually need to decide for themselves), or encourage communication about messages in media, and how they affect us?

Its just interesting to me how different parents take drastically different positions on this issue. Some feel that commercial tv (for example) is horrible, that their children are victims to its messages, and its poison to their minds. OTOH, my son will watch an infomercial (can't really get more "commercial" than that!), we'll discuss the product, look up reviews on the internet, and decide for ourselves whether we think they were honest in their advertising and whether the product seems worth the money.

I guess i just feel like knowledge is power....would i explain "superman that 'ho!" to a five yr old? No, that probably wouldnt come up. But discuss it with my preteen/teenager if the issue arose? Absolutely.

For *me*, i just dont find parenting from a place of fear to be very productive or good for my child. There seems to me to be alot of fear in your posts. Maybe i'm wrong.









Katherine


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## Marg of Arabia (Nov 19, 2001)

WOW! what a thread! Geez, I really can't add a lot......

I will say that nobody is going to be able to shield a teen from what is out there. What we can control is how we react to it as role models and how we explain our opinion of it.

My 19 year old was exposed to any and everything and I have always told her any and every opinion I have about abusive music, movies, tv, books, magazines,,,,and so on......

Bottomline, control is an illusion parents have most of the time but modeling is where it's at! (my opinion)









marg


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## lindberg99 (Apr 23, 2003)

OK, I've listened to the song, watched the video, watched the video of Soulja Boy showing how to do the dance, read all these posts, etc. I read the lyrics on his site and they do say "Superman that...Ohhhh" and the dance does show him "flying" like superman during that part, not acting out the other meaning. So I really wouldn't have a problem with my kids listening to it. But I'm still confused about one thing:

Is it okay to play this song at a school function? My DH is in charge of music for the 5th - 6th grade dance room at the school carnival. I'm sure the kids would love it if he played this but after reading this, are we going to end up offending any parents who are in there?? I'm concerned if people complain, they won't let the kids have a dance room next year. Would you play it or not?


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## happyhippiemama (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lindberg99* 
OK, I've listened to the song, watched the video, watched the video of Soulja Boy showing how to do the dance, read all these posts, etc. I read the lyrics on his site and they do say "Superman that...Ohhhh" and the dance does show him "flying" like superman during that part, not acting out the other meaning. So I really wouldn't have a problem with my kids listening to it. But I'm still confused about one thing:

Is it okay to play this song at a school function? My DH is in charge of music for the 5th - 6th grade dance room at the school carnival. I'm sure the kids would love it if he played this but after reading this, are we going to end up offending any parents who are in there?? I'm concerned if people complain, they won't let the kids have a dance room next year. Would you play it or not?

no way


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lindberg99* 
Is it okay to play this song at a school function? My DH is in charge of music for the 5th - 6th grade dance room at the school carnival. I'm sure the kids would love it if he played this but after reading this, are we going to end up offending any parents who are in there?? I'm concerned if people complain, they won't let the kids have a dance room next year. Would you play it or not?

My 5th grade nephew love, love, loves this song, knows all the dance steps as do his friends ... but if this thread is any indication I would skip it, and I wouldn't call that censorship ... just a selective play list


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## lindberg99 (Apr 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cherie2* 
My 5th grade nephew love, love, loves this song, knows all the dance steps as do his friends ... but if this thread is any indication I would skip it, and I wouldn't call that censorship ... just a selective play list









Yeah, I guess it's better to skip it. I'm sure the kids will survive.


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## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *StrongBeliever* 
I apologize if my passion on the subject is offensive. I also apologize if I get on my high horse and use terms that are less than bunny fresh... I suppose there I need to practice what I preach. Ah, the foresight of youth. But I won't apologize for my intention. I'd like for everyone to have a loving, gentle childhood... Maybe if my rantings get one more mom to switch the channel on the radio, that's great. It might be easier to swallow if I could say it a little sweeter, but it was early in the morning and passion doesn't always leave time to edit for sensibilities. And maybe my rantings will achieve nothing, but I stood up for what I believe in, and that counts for something to me. I don't mean to insult anyone, nor do I mean to point the finger... Forgive my generalizations.

This is so beautifully put, and coming from my point of view, it's surprising that anyone could argue against the wisdom in it.

I don't know for sure, but I think the folks who are strong proponents of letting their children listen to and watch whatever they want (I assume your kids are allowed to watch porn if they want to) probably are talking mostly about their teens. I have a _pre-_teen, whom I've referred to here as a "child," at age nine in two weeks, who has friends listening to music I will censor from our house and lives as much as possible. Two reasons: preservation of innocence and to model what I consider a civic duty: saying no, not on my watch, not on my dime, not with my implicit approval. This is what drew me into this convo: supersmutty misogynistic mass media that are marketed to young people. I never, and not one person who's posted has ever expressed more than empassioned desires for the supersmut to go supergoodbye, with not a hope or prayer of that happening which we all know, but just the WISH that it would fade from view of our child.

Is that censorship? I also won't let her watch porn, or murder-rampage tv, or depictions of drug use, or crime dramas or solve-the-murder newsmagazine tv shows, or stripper scenes in movies I might rent (Hollywood manages to squeeze so many into movies... it could be about a sewing circle at a nunnery, and Hollywood is going to have the main characters meet at a stripper club). I don't feel that I am stunting her growth. But when I let her out of her padded cage for dinner, I am going to measure her.

VF


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marg of Arabia* 
control is an illusion









:


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## chellemarie (Jan 17, 2003)

Well, this is getting ridiculous.

Viewfinder - The bit of text by StrongBeliever that you quoted really has very little to do with this conversation.

Second, you cannot really assume we let our children watch porn. Please. Be a grown-up.

Third, I'm not sure what this even means:

Quote:

I never, and not one person who's posted has ever expressed more than empassioned desires for the supersmut to go supergoodbye, with not a hope or prayer of that happening which we all know, but just the WISH that it would fade from view of our child.
I don't have an "empassioned desire" for the "supersmut to go supergoodbye." What it could cost us isn't worth it. Who decides what qualifies? Who gets to filter? I'd rather counter the "supersmut" with superdiscussion.

I'm not talking about a third grader here, though. I'm talking about children who are old enough to have ever longer stretches of time to themselves and with their friends. Children who are too old to be sitting right next to me at all times. Children who are healthy and growing and learning to navigate the world they live in. I can't drive them around forever. They have to make their own way.

I hope they remember the map I put in the glovebox.


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## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chellemarie* 
Well, this is getting ridiculous.

No, no, it's getting _clear_: we all actually feel similarly, even when it's seemed we disagreed TERRibly. I think what was unclear is what age kids we're all talking about, mainly.

I LOVED your line:

"I don't have an "empassioned desire" for the "supersmut to go supergoodbye. ... I'd rather counter the "supersmut" with superdiscussion."

I laughed out loud... so funny. And, I must explain, sorry this was unclear, but the "persons" I referred to in the following:

"I never, and not one person who's posted has ever expressed more than empassioned desires..."

I am speaking of those of us who have been holding up the, "Wish it would go away" banner.

What Strong Believer said,

Originally Posted by StrongBeliever
"I'd like for everyone to have a loving, gentle childhood... Maybe if my rantings get one more mom to switch the channel on the radio, that's great."

I agree with this, and I liked ALL of what she said in that paragraph I posted. I felt a certain sympatico, and wanted to share that with this group of people at the keyboard.

On Rosie.com or RosanneWorld.com today was posted a link to a short film about "stuff." It is relavant to our conversation. I just watched it and there is one line in it that will jump out at you (my imagined "you"). So worth the full viewing. The Story of Stuff or something like that.

VF


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Whether or not I'd want the things I don't value in to disappear is just not the point for me. I don't even wish it would "fade from the view of my child."

There are always going to be things I dislike, find revolting, don't care for, don't agree with, am squicked out by, see as stupid, or find offensive. This happens because I live in a society and world with other human beings, and so do my kids.









Instead of banning and censoring we've chosen to discuss and allow for personal decision making about food, music, TV, clothes, and etc. The result is kids thinking about what they value or don't value and why or why not, understanding their own limits, and knowing they can be open and honest with me without any fear of my controlling what they see or hear. This is far more important to me than whether or not they hear controversial language or sexism. We talk about it, and that's what we find value in.


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## `guest` (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
Whether or not I'd want the things I don't value in to disappear is just not the point for me. I don't even wish it would "fade from the view of my child."

There are always going to be things I dislike, find revolting, don't care for, don't agree with, am squicked out by, see as stupid, or find offensive. This happens because I live in a society and world with other human beings, and so do my kids.









Instead of banning and censoring we've chosen to discuss and allow for personal decision making about food, music, TV, clothes, and etc. The result is kids thinking about what they value or don't value and why or why not, understanding their own limits, and knowing they can be open and honest with me without any fear of my controlling what they see or hear. This is far more important to me than whether or not they hear controversial language or sexism. We talk about it, and that's what we find value in.










Yes, yes.
What if your child makes choices you don't approve of? As a parent, are you going to devalue them because their choices do not match yours? Really. Being over controlling is based on FEAR. Being open to choices and discussion is based on LOVE. Pretty simple.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SMUM* 
Yes, yes.
What if your child makes choices you don't approve of? As a parent, are you going to devalue them because their choices do not match yours?

I've asked this question at least once and I know at least one other person has asked the same thing. We haven't gotten an answer yet.

I saw the video about Stuff several weeks ago. I found it interesting but not new. I think you're preaching to choir here on that sort of thing. Most people on MDC already think that way.


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## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa* 
and knowing they can be open and honest with me without any fear of my controlling what they see or hear. This is far more important to me than whether or not they hear controversial language or sexism.

amen sista!

this is what it all boils down to for me


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## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

Do you let your children watch porn? I've posed this question, and still not gotten an answer on it.

Do you let your children watch depictions of rape scenes? Murders? Chop bodies up horror? Domestic violence scenes?

Some folks do, I understand that. I have great affection and respect for those friends I have IRL who let their 4 and 6 yr olds watch horror films. But if YOU draw the line at porn: soft porn, hard core porn, then you are censoring and trying to control your kids, by your own measure.

Where we draw the lines is different. I think it impacts our children, and I am critical of how overexposure to horror, smut and misogyny (not merely scary, nasty and sexist) will affect your children, because your children affect my children. I wish my child didn't have to be raised in a world where your kids are going to be introducing, or should I say, impinging upon my child what you deem is openness to certain facts of life while she is too young, in my opinion, to hear it without undue psychic damage. But, I am not going to censor your children from my child, and my child is not likely to announce that she will not associate with the kids doing the nasty dance, etc. But she does come home and talk about it, expresses concern and disgust, etc.

That may bring up another point of contention here: maybe you do not acknowledge psychic damage. Maybe you believe that children who are physically, or mentally, or sexually abused do not receive life-altering psychic damage. It is THE FEW and NOT THE MANY who rise above childhood abuse, because it puts MARKS on their identity. I believe that exposure to misogynistic propoganda puts marks on a child's identity, as either the identified VICTIM in the scenario, or the identified PERPETRATOR. I did not arrive at that opinion in a vacuum. I believe I am backed up by plenty of scholarship on the issue, but, bottom line, it's merely my considered opinion. I do not put out there that I am right and you are wrong, because I don't actually know that for your kids. But that is my opinion.

Also, something that seems to have escaped your notice, is that I and I'm pretty sure every parent on here DOES also talk and discuss EVERYTHING with our children, and how we feel about it, and allow some room for personal choices, as age appropriate, in my view. There is SO MUCH horse---- erupting out of our sexist and somewhat misogynistic society that even with the blinders and earmuffs I have surgically installed on my child's head







:, there is PLENTY of material that does get through that we talk about alot.

I have a NINE YEAR OLD. You may have a teen: acknowledge THAT fact. We're talking about different aged PRE-TEENS and TEENS.

Oh, and I don't believe anyone here is looking for a mini-me in their child. My dd is very much her own person and clearly (to all who know her) marches to the beat of her own drummer. She and I do not agree on some things, big things, and it's okay. She will do things that I will not like, and I will still love her, and she me, I'm pretty sure. We tackle it all like everyone else. We talk about everything and anything. She has strong opinions of her own, she's intelligent, and she is a product of TODAY, and that presents generational challenges for me, because I'm old enough to have been her grandmother. But I have always been on the vanguard of social awareness, and I have no trouble accepting the sometimes vast differences of opinion that we have on certain things. And that's good parenting. I "let" her do things I don't like sometimes.

So, tell us all then, do you let your children watch porn? Let them see all the news and pictures of the wars and conflicts overseas? All the starving and malnutritioned babies? Do you let them see you smoking cigarettes? Smoking pot? Drinking alcohol til you're blotto? How do you explain the sheet stuck to your backside when your kid crawls into bed with you? How do you take it when your son stands over you and starts to pee on you? These are questions I ask you in the interest of your own self-discovery. I don't really want to know.

VF


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## chellemarie (Jan 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viewfinder* 
So, tell us all then, do you let your children watch porn? Let them see all the news and pictures of the wars and conflicts overseas? All the starving and malnutritioned babies? Do you let them see you smoking cigarettes? Smoking pot? Drinking alcohol til you're blotto? How do you explain the sheet stuck to your backside when your kid crawls into bed with you? How do you take it when your son stands over you and starts to pee on you? *These are questions I ask you in the interest of your own self-discovery*. I don't really want to know.

Emphasis mine. You are way out of line. Your manner of expressing yourself here is far more offensive than a song with lyrics that have underlying meaning. Meaning that is largely lost on children who interpret the lyrics differently and rather innocently.

Some of these behaviors are not just morally questionable - they are illegal.

Most of the participants on this thread had to ask what "superman" even means. So your snotty little question about having a sheet stuck to our backs is the nastiest thing I've read in this entire thread.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viewfinder* 
Do you let your children watch porn? I've posed this question, and still not gotten an answer on it.

Do you let your children watch depictions of rape scenes? Murders? Chop bodies up horror? Domestic violence scenes?

I didn't answer these questions because they seem ridiculous and inflammatory to me. I don't know if you are asking a legitimate question or just trying to stir things up. Your posts have a very accusatory tone, which I think we've seen a lot of people react to. I don't usually respond to such things because I think it's a waste of time. I get the feeling that you aren't really so much interested in other people's opinions as you are interested in trying to bully everyone into agreeing with you.

If you truly want an answer then, no, of course I do not let my children watch porn. I don't watch porn. But, as you pointed out, we are not talking about 4 or 6yos here. My teenager has seen porn in various forms. We have talked about it. I don't supply it for him but I am also not going to forbid him to look at it because I know that's an impossibility for me to make happen. That's just not even part of my vocabulary with my children. We don't forbid things. He has to decide for himself whether or not porn is something he wants to view.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

I dont really have the energy to read the last few posts...the questions asked (about porn, etc) dont really seem to be asked in the spirit of wanting to understand why we parent the way we do....the questions seem almost offensive.

However, since "porn" was brought up a couple of days ago, i've been "posting in my head" (havent been near my computer), and so wanted to get my feelings on that out, without addressing specific points that may or may not have been mentioned.

I was waiting for the porn argument to come up. Invariably, at MDC, whenever threads start about limiting kids exposure to something (be it Bratz, or MIC toys, or sugar, or meat, or tv or videogames or or or....on and on)...there will be parents like myself who say that we dont "limit" our children's exposure to these things if they desire them. Parents, like myself, will explain how we dont just throw a bunch of HFCS at the child and say "have at it", we dont just lay down videos of horror movies and say "Enjoy!!!" but rather we take our kids' lead about what interests them...and we support, discuss, facilitate. And at some point, those few of us who would allow such "evil" things (like Bratz dolls, or music with iffy lyrics or whatever)....someone will bring up porn. "Would you let your child see porn?!?" *gasp* *shock* *horror* Sometimes, the question is "would you let your child shoot heroin in the living room???" or "would you let your 12 yr old have sex in your home??" or some variation.

I call it the "Porn and Twinkies" argument.

Its a straw man. It does *nothing* to address the issues being discussed here. In fact, i doubt that the people who bring up porn are really concerned that a lack of strict control will lead their child to a life of porn addiction. I think that posters bring up porn to show just how "ridiculous" those of us are who don't strictly limit/control our children.

In a way, its kind of like having a discussion about the benefits of breastfeeding (or cosleeping or gentle discipline) with someone, and them saying "Yeah....BUT.....would you REALLY be ok with your 12 yr old doing that?!?!" Its a way of trying to discredit someone's ideals.

But. You asked about porn. I'll answer.

I have an 11 yr old son. I am sure he's seen the occasional "naked woman" in his adventures on the internet. I dont *think* he has sought them out, but its the internet, and so i'm sure its happened at some point. I also expect that there will be a time where viewing naked people will be something he wants to do or possibly enjoys (which is typical of many many many men and women in our society.) As with everything else in our lives (music, food, advertising, violence in the media), i'm sure we will (and have a little, to some extent)talk about the "sex industry"....why people might get involved, how there is alot of exploitation of the workers (whether we are talking about porn, or playboy, or prostitutes), how many women who are involved have been abused in their childhood. We might talk about being respectful of partners. We might talk about whether or not viewing porn means you are also exploiting someone (and not everyone agrees that "Porn = Bad"...if you do, you can certainly feel free to express those feelings to your kid), how one's partner might feel if she found her boyfriend/husband had porn (no one "right" answer here)....etc etc. I could go on and on. I likely would not have this discussion in one big huge heavy conversation. This is something that starts early (about respecting other's body boundaries, about "healthy" touch vs not being ok with someone touching , that sort of thing)...and might become quite in depth and explicit with a much older teen.

Does your 9 yr old want to view porn? I would say its probably developmentally atypical, if thats so. Does your 15 yr old want to view porn? My answer about how to handle it would then be different.

If you, personally, have a political position against all porn, and therefore would never allow it in the house (meaning, if you found Playboy under your teen's bed, you'd burn it but not before giving him an earful about the exploitation of women)....thats your choice. Whatever.

If i found a playboy underneath my teen boys bed, i'd quietly put it back and remind myself not to be so nosy. If my teen boy wanted to invite his friends over and watch porn dvds in the living room? Uh no, i'd have to tell him its not ok....one big reason being the legal liability involved. But i can't imagine my son even thinking of doing such a thing....and i can't really imagine any child of a mindful, respectful parent wanting to do that. I suppose its possible, somewhere.









For some reason people who control and limit just do not believe us when we say NOT doing those things works out well in our homes. That our relationship with our kids is (IMO) stronger, healthier, more open. I want my child to be able to come to me for help, for advice, and not be afraid that i will judge them.

My son has a friend across the street, 12 yrs old, who keeps so much stuff from his mom. He even has a girlfriend, they've kissed, but its a big secret and his mom just thinks this girl is a friend. My son OTOH, tells me just about everything. We dont have secrets. He's not afraid to tell me when he's made a mistake.

Even in this thread, someone brought up a child "eating 20 Big Macs"...as if NOT restricting will get you that. But its been MY experience and the experience of just about everyone i know in unschooling/mindful parenting circles that "eating 20 big macs" (why? Why would you do that? Is that even possible??)isnt a reality for our families. My son can have candy whenever he wants. While checking out at the store, i'll often ask "want a candy bar?" The answer is OFTEN "no", or he'll ask for sugar free gum. We just went to the office supply store, to get a better binder for school. I would have bought him just about anything there that he wanted. He decided that his old binder was fine, he'd just organize it better, and bought a 99 cent book cover. I told him later he is so "non needy"....IME it is *because* my child is not restricted, that he makes very specific choices. That he is more discerning. That he takes the time to figure out what he truly wants, rather than wanting something that he is not allowed to have.

Its not about porn. Its not about twinkies. Really.

Katherine


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viewfinder* 
Do you let your children watch porn? I've posed this question, and still not gotten an answer on it.

 It's not a question of "let" really. It's a matter of respect that we have for each other. It's a matter of privacy. We do not watch porn as a family because that would be uncomfortable for us. My teens are fully capable of finding sexual media though, and it's not a problem for us. They are young people coming into their own sexuality. Dd likes to read some light erotica fan fiction. No big deal.









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Do you let your children watch depictions of rape scenes? Murders? Chop bodies up horror? Domestic violence scenes?
 Yes. My kids have been guided and encouraged to watch things they are personally comfortable with. What we can handle is individual. I don't do horror, and the kids watch scary movies. Dd recently saw a movie that was too much for her, and she talked to me about it. She's taking a little break from those things and then she'll assess her comfort level again. Both kids are sensitive to rape scenes, but they can get through it in a movie if it's brief enough.

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Also, something that seems to have escaped your notice, is that I and I'm pretty sure every parent on here DOES also talk and discuss EVERYTHING with our children, and how we feel about it, and allow some room for personal choices, as age appropriate, in my view
Right, but the bottom line is that you still get to decide for your pre and teen if their choice is something you aren't comfy with. (If i've been reading/understanding you correctly, anyway.) That's a key difference.

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So, tell us all then, do you let your children watch porn?
 It's not a let issue. If my teens want to find it, they will.







I have shared with them what I value and why.

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Let them see all the news and pictures of the wars and conflicts overseas?
 Yep. I never forced it upon them, but we never deliberately hid it either.

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All the starving and malnutritioned babies?
Again, we've never thrown it at them, but we never hid it. It allows us to talk about compassion, poverty, and etc.

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Do you let them see you smoking cigarettes? Smoking pot?
 My husband smokes so it would be odd to censor that.







We have no issue with pot smoking in and of itself. I do not value addictions, and I wouldn't want the possible legal problems that pot can bring, but other than that it's a so whatter.

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Drinking alcohol til you're blotto?
 We've never had a problem with the kids seeing someone drunk in a movie or etc. We don't value that behavior IRL, and we've explained why.

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How do you explain the sheet stuck to your backside when your kid crawls into bed with you? How do you take it when your son stands over you and starts to pee on you?
 I seriously doubt anyone here is suggesting that these things are respectful, appropriate, or actually happening in their lives. That's light years apart from listening to a song.


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## Ziggysmama (Dec 26, 2007)

Hi all. What an interesting thread.
I just wanted to add, that I think 'controlling' a kids media etc can sometimes have the oppisite effect. When I was growing up my parents wouldn't let me play with Barbies or watch violence on tv/movies or play with guns or cabbage patch dolls etc. Well, let me tell you!! That is all i wanted to do. I so prayed for a BArbie everyday. If I went to friends houses I would play with their secretly and watch violent movies. I felt like I had this whole secret life away from my parents. And I kept it all from them.
I AM really appreciative of the 'intent' behind their actions, and they did explain to me the reasons why I wasn't 'allowed' to do those things, but it didn't stop me.

Also, there was a discussion about sexual harrassment earlier. This is a little OT but, when I was in intermediate school (11 or 12) I brought 3 of my male classmates up on sexual harrassment charges. They had been bulling my and using all kinds of sexual innuendo and I just couldn't take it any more. I kept a log of their insult etc and typed it up and wrote accompaningly letters to my teacher and principal outlining the abuse. All three boys were severly reprimanded and suspended. I have never regretted doing this. If your daughters are being sexually harrassed at school there is things they can do about it.


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## thewaggonerfamily (Oct 13, 2003)

I'm not really up for the deeper discussion going on here. But I just wanna let you know you have ruined music for me!














I never knew all those songs had all those meanings to them.







Even now, as a grown up! Sheesh.














am soooooooooo sheltered.

Back to your regularly scheduled discussion...


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## chanibell (Sep 25, 2002)

Hmm maybe I should see this look up this song. I am so out of it. Not sure what "superman" is except the cartoon hero. Gosh I hope my 3 yr old ds is into the Cure and The Doors ( makes mental note)

Umm I just googled this and its sick!


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

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Originally Posted by *StrongBeliever* 
It doesn't take a scientist to see that our kids are being barraged with crap from every direction from many different sources.

So true!


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## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

[I'll get back this thread in a couple of days maybe. I didn't mean to offend anyone, only sincere conversation using the type of expressions I find to go right to the heart of the moment. I feel strongly about what I think. I AM interested in your conversation. It's showing me a window on something that I THINK is okay with me---it's both familiar and unfamiliar.

Again, I think we got highly charged on this thread because of the vast age differences and trends between "your kids" and "my kids."

Be that as it may, if I come off as snotty, or grossed you out, or whatever, well, I do feel that I had no choice with your argument. I think it yielded the only useful arguments. And I'll think about it some more, and write more later.

VF


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## KaraBoo (Nov 22, 2001)

So wierd. I feel like I'm living in a box. Cuz for all my internet wanderings, I've never come across this song or the dance or the lyrics.

Gotta go check it all out.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

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Originally Posted by *Viewfinder* 
I think we got highly charged on this thread because of the vast age differences and trends between "your kids" and "my kids."


For the purposes of this thread/discussion I am referring to kids in the 9 and up range. These are the kids, particularly the older end, that'd be most likely to hear the song or know the dance.

For my purposes, I mean any kid at any age really.


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