# ARGH, I guess Dr. Sears had easy kids....



## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

Seriously. I just went through amazon.com and the ONLY books on strong willed children were written for parents who spank. Most of the books were done by James Dobson. I need something for *my* strong willed child--the one that refuses to listen to ANYONE. The one of whom redirection, talking, time-outs, modeling, removing priveleges, and even bribing don't work. The one who flat out has a mind of his own and nobody can get through to him.

Where's the AP book for my kid. :sigh: I need something...anything... How do you AP a child who is so strong willed that the entire Gentle Discipline book just doesn't work on him? Tonight we are removing all of his toys except a handful of them (and we'll just rotate toys) because I'm sick of him throwing every toy he owns on the floor and then staging 2 hour long protests when it's time to clean it up. I am already at my whit's end with the food dumping and the bolting out the back door when he's supposed to be cleaning and the ignoring of everything we say.

I love my kid, but man...why hasn't anyone written an AP book for kids like this? Either we're just AP failures and our kid is ruined or people with kids as strongwilled as mine just turn to James Dobson or people with kids as strong willed as mine are too dang busy dealing with our strong willed kids to actually have time to write or read a book like this...


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## Cate (Oct 2, 2005)

Have you tried Raising Your Spirited Child by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka? I haven't read the whole thing yet... keep meaning to (I have a *very* strong willed, independant, stuborn (but sweet, adorable, smart, I love her to death) daughter). It seems really good, and I've heard a lot of good things about it.
I hope you find a way through. Parenting spirited children is deffinatly a challenge.


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cate*
Parenting spirited children is deffinatly a challenge.









Amen to that one. The Fussy Baby Book was my lifeline when he was a colicky high needs baby. Now that he's a very strong willed almost-preschooler it's a whole different ballgame.







: I should have seen this one coming when he became way too independent.

I haven't tried that book yet--I'm going to see if my library has it and if so, I'm headed there tonight. I'll try anything. I don't want to break his spirit or cause him to lose his strong will. But I want to know how to work with it so that I'm not stressed every time I know that we're going into another multihour battle.


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllyRae*
I'm sick of him throwing every toy he owns on the floor and then staging 2 hour long protests when it's time to clean it up. I am already at my whit's end with the food dumping and the bolting out the back door when he's supposed to be cleaning and the ignoring of everything we say.

Holy cow..... our kids are twins







Seriously though, I just posted in here a question/rant about Owen this morning. Much to the same tune you did







: 240ish miles away and they still act the same







:


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

Steph, we do have the same kid. Then again, they do share some genes.







: Or maybe Brandon taught Owen a little something about being strong willed.


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllyRae*
Or maybe Brandon taught Owen a little something about being strong willed.

I forgot to thank you for that







Now get him over here to teach Owen a thing or two about the potty and all will be forgiven


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

It sounds like you need more than techniques from a book. Perhaps a new perspective for both you and ds.
I'd suggest The Continuum Concept. It changed all my perceptions of kids.
Or perhaps Becoming the Parent You want to Be. I like their discipline stuff a lot.

Quote:

Tonight we are removing all of his toys except a handful of them (and we'll just rotate toys) because I'm sick of him throwing every toy he owns on the floor and then *staging 2 hour long protests when it's time to clean it up*. I am already at my whit's end with the food dumping and the *bolting out the back door when he's supposed to be cleaning and the ignoring of everything we say*.
My ds is quite cooperative. But I know he'd do what your ds does, if I *insisted* on him helping clean up toys. lol. I think that sounds like a normal toddler to me!


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## tracilicious (Oct 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllyRae*
Tonight we are removing all of his toys except a handful of them (and we'll just rotate toys) because I'm sick of him throwing every toy he owns on the floor and then staging 2 hour long protests when it's time to clean it up. I am already at my whit's end with the food dumping and the bolting out the back door when he's supposed to be cleaning and the ignoring of everything we say.


I'm sorry you are having such a hard time. It isn't easy with toddlers, especially ones with extra spirit. If I may make a suggestion, why don't you wait until he's asleep and then pick up his toys? Or as he finishes playing with one toy, go over and say, "Oh it looks like you are done with this toy, so let's put it away," and then put it in the toy box casually. It may be that he is freaking out because you are putting all the toys away at once.

He is 2 right? Two is too young to expect to sit there and clean up when you tell him to. Ignoring everything you say is so frustrating (believe me I know!), but to be expected at this age. I think you need to change your expectations and get to the bottom of what's bothering him.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy*
My ds is quite cooperative. But I know he'd do what your ds does, if I *insisted* on him helping clean up toys. lol. I think that sounds like a normal toddler to me!

I kinda agree here, though I know we haven't heard the whole story. My dd is 6 months older than your ds, and I know her response to time-outs and removing priveleges would be a power struggle. Trying to punish my dd has only ever resulted in huge fights. I also avoid power struggles like the plague, however, so maybe you're less wimpy than me.







Seriously, though, with some kids I think that unless you're willing to punish them severely, you shouldn't try at all. Does that make sense? Or sound crazy?


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
Seriously, though, with some kids I think that unless you're willing to punish them severely, you shouldn't try at all. Does that make sense? Or sound crazy?

Doesn't sound crazy at all. Its exactly right. If you are going to use punishment to change behavior, then use something harsh, or you will simply be teaching them to tolerate discomfort.

There's an interesting study on this. I don't have a link because I didn't see it online; I read it while working with kids with developmental delays. Basically, when you use punishers, if you start out with what is "reasonable" to meet the behavior, over time that punishment ceases to work, and you have to try something a little harsher.

Better to not use punishment at all, IMHO.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
Seriously, though, with some kids I think that unless you're willing to punish them severely, you shouldn't try at all. Does that make sense? Or sound crazy?

Makes total sense. I could see that ds might be that way if we were more authoritarian. (That's just based on times I've reacted harshly, and his reaction to that)


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

The Sears had a high-needs child - Hayden. Google "Dr Sears Hayden."

I think searching for something that will "work on" a child is missing the point, though. I'd focus more on adjusting expectations and creating situations where your son can succeed...

dar


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## mamaley (Mar 18, 2002)

Ok, I know you were asking about books, so I hope it's ok if I share some personal experiences.

My son is almost 6, and for the most part is an absolute angel. I mean, a really good, sweet, kind kid. But when he was a toddler...well, let's just say it's a miracle that ds has a little sister. It was SO hard. My dd is extremely spunky but she is also pretty easy to discipline. Ds on the other hand was so difficult for me at that age. He'd hit kids on the playground. Throw tantrums everywhere. When I would say something to him in attempt to discipline, it was like he couldn't hear me. Time outs didn't do anything.

Somethings that helped, some of which you probably know about:

*know his patterns. If he melts down at 3pm, try not to do anything in the afternoon. Etc. Not that this always worked, or even worked most of the time. But it did help.

*give choices, and stay firm. "We're going now. Would you like to go out this door or that door?" Again, didn't always work, but helped.

*Use "this too shall pass" as your toddler mantra. When he is older he will not be like this, as long as you continue discipling. It's hard, and it's long, but you've got to hang in there until this stage passes. With ds, I thought it was his personality and not a stage but thankfully I was wrong.

*Try to get some time to yourself.

Probably not very helpful, but I've so been there and it was so hard. I feel for you. Good luck


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tracilicious*

He is 2 right? Two is too young to expect to sit there and clean up when you tell him to. Ignoring everything you say is so frustrating (believe me I know!), but to be expected at this age. I think you need to change your expectations and get to the bottom of what's bothering him.

It's even just one toy. If I ask him to put one toy away because he's done with it, he'll run and dump over buckets and shelves of toys on the floor. It's so not funny.









I know he *can* clean though--at kindermusik he gets mad at the other kids because he wants to clean up all of the stuff at the end of each session. He just hates cleaning at home I think...


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## boheime (Oct 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cate*
Have you tried Raising Your Spirited Child by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka? I haven't read the whole thing yet... keep meaning to (I have a *very* strong willed, independant, stuborn (but sweet, adorable, smart, I love her to death) daughter). It seems really good, and I've heard a lot of good things about it.
I hope you find a way through. Parenting spirited children is deffinatly a challenge.









I checked this book out from the library. Coming from an unconditional parenting type of place - I didn't care for a lot of the advice in the book. It was, however, worth reading for the information on where your kids are coming from and thinking - spirited kids are sensitive kids.


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

Thank you everyone...







: Another thing I forgot to mention is that he also has SID, and is currently being screened for a PDD, so we've had to work with that a lot. He usually is very cooperative, but cleaning his toys and eating without dumping his food (on purpose...not even on accident) are two things that we've been struggling with for a very long time. He's very much "I'll do it this way and my way is right".

I won't clean everything up *for* him because that's what he wants...I will gladly help him, but he needs to be a participant in the cleaning. But, he just stages sit-ins (I swear, I need to set him up with PETA or something...he's very good at protests). Making it into a game worked for about a day. Then he caught on, flipped it around on us and tried to make it into a game for me to clean it up myself (smart kid...)

I do know what's bothering him--he hates when we say something he doesn't agree with. At kindermusik, he'll clean for his teacher and he'll volunteer to clean. At a friend's house he'll clean when it's time to go. For us, he won't do it. I guess toddlers do that but he's just more strong willed than the average toddler--he came out that way at birth I think. I don't want the room to be completely clean, but I do want him to respect his belongings by making sure that he takes care of them (by putting them on the shelf when he's done or whatnot...right now, he'll chuck them at the brick fireplace when he's done with them. It's leaking into him being disrespectful of the family belongings too by using something and then throwing it and leaving it). I guess maybe he'd do better if he didn't have so many toys out tempting him to throw them, so that's an issue I'm going to resolve (seriously, he has away too many toys).

I do hope that he can be strong-willed and determined without driving me to the rubber room though.







:


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## Aeress (Jan 25, 2005)

I would go with the floor time plan model because with a child who tends to be on his time all the time, you will be less fustrated. have you read anything by stanley greenspan?
in floor time, you follow the child's lead and vary how you respond to the child to get them to connect and respond to you.
i know what you are saying about picking up but i think if you start trying different approaches to your interactions with your ds, then you may find he is connecting with you more to get things done.
o.k. with that said. I am working with a little boy, who throws everything all the time and will not clean up, no matter what and we just started using signs (in last few months we have been signing, but he has started using in hte last few days














) and following his lead and he is interacting with us so much more intently.
I hear your fustration


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## kindacrunchy (Jun 25, 2004)

Haven't read all the posts but I just wanted to highly recommend the Raising your Spirited Child book by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka. It has helped in a lot of areas. Now we are working on him getting enough nutrition and sleep. Get the book. It helps you identify his temperment, you and your husband's, where you might gel and clash and how to work with the differences so everyone is happy. I highly, highly recommend it!


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## Tonia80 (Jun 10, 2006)

I disagree with saying he is too young. I have three hn kids so I can relate to your stress here. I am in no way saying my kids are angels. BUT I have had to make certain things non negotiable in our house. Like, they clean thier own messes up, they do NOT ruin out of teh house without asking first, they help daily with a chore and they do not hurt people with words or physically. If they break a rule (btw, they are 5 and 3) I get down to thier eye level and speak firmly but qyuietly thatthey cannot ____(throw toys, yell at me, bite the baby, etc...) I remind them that if they do it agian they will need a time out. I do not yell or strap them ibn a chair. time out can either be time alone on a mat in teh hall or on my lap in my room. Just a time for them to gather themselves as often they melt down due to overstimulatin or tiredness. They are free to get up as soon as they are calm and can acknowledge in some way the thing they did wrong by apologizing to me or picking up tehtoy, etc....
I agree about working with his personality. I love how stubborn and determined my son can be because it will serve him well in th future. BUt it is my responsibility to guide him in teh right direction with his determination. He can have his own opinions without disrespecting other people. I expect the same from adults. You can disagre with a persons religious beliefs but you dont go throw eggs at the church they attend. KWIM?
He may just be bored withthe toys. My kids have alot too and what I do taht works wonders is I only keep out a third at a time and the rest are in bins in a closet. Every week or two I rotate so its new stuff for them. You would be amazed how QUIET my home is that first day with teh "new" bin of toys!
Maybe he would help you more with tidying up if you made a chart of some kind where he could put stickers or earn rewards as he went along? I am not thrilled with the bribery concept but habve done it myslef. It worked wonders for us and now my kids have discovered how "fun" it is to clean house and they fight over who does the bathroom. (weird kids) LOL And perhaps when he throws a toy put it up for its own time out. I do that with my 3 yr old and it only took a coupe days of this before he realized he hated it. He would lose the toy for a day and it got the message sent home easy. I think iots different to make it clear you expect respect from him then to squelch who he is.


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## mbravebird (May 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllyRae*
I won't clean everything up *for* him because that's what he wants.

I do know what's bothering him--he hates when we say something he doesn't agree with. At kindermusik, he'll clean for his teacher and he'll volunteer to clean. At a friend's house he'll clean when it's time to go. For us, he won't do it.

Both of the things you said above sound like power struggle issues, which are hard for both of you, but *can* be avoided, although it's certainly more difficult with a spirited child. For example, not cleaning up for him "because that's what he wants" you to do is actually YOU initiating the power struggle. I know it feels fair to you -- I hear ya. But maybe what he needs, and what would avoid the power struggle, is you telling him how you feel when you clean up by yourself -- _as you continue to clean up._ That way you're focusing on the relationship between the two of you, not his compliance or non-compliance. As you de-escalate the situation, he may feel the freedom to follow suit. Or he may not. This is where you may want to "take one for the team", and just continue relationship building, even when he is pushing your 'power struggle' buttons.

FWIW, I am not a very "pick up after myself" type of person. I love a clean house, but I only have one about once a week. I am the type of person that lets things get messy and then cleans it all up with great joy and satisfaction. Luckily, my husband is the same way. In our house, you might hear me say to my 2 year old, "It's cleaning day!!" and proceed to fill our morning with cleaning-related activities, which he either marginally helps with or undoes after me. I offer him chances to help many times, which he sometimes takes me up on. I find he feels most satisfied and successful when I give him _very_ specific information, like "Will you put this in the red basket, please?" But if he doesn't want to, or forgets on the way there, or puts it in the blue basket, I don't make an issue of it. At the end of all the cleaning activity, I am usually exclaiming with satisfaction at the room, like "Look how clean it is in here!", because I am genuinely excited about it, and I find he follows suit. He also notices when it is messy, just like I do. It seems that he is actually learning to value the clean house, even though I have never asked him to value that.

The reason I described that to you is not to pressure you into being a less clean person -- I envy you for having a clean house all the time; I would love it. But I am saying that toys being picked up every night does not in itself have intrinsic value. It is something _you_ value, and I think it's totally fair that you communicate that to him. But, in order to avoid power struggles, you may have to cop to the fact that he just doesn't value that cleanliness yet, and by getting into power struggles with him over it, you may actually be tainting whatever future cooperation and enjoyment he may be able to learn from you. You may just want to set the example, find a way to connect with him as you do it, and move on.


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## BamBam'sMom (Jun 4, 2005)

It sounds like a power struggle to me too.

Maybe it would be a good idea to just put some of the toys away, like the PP said, so there's less to clean. At that point, maybe you could clean up the toys for a while, with him around. If he doesn't feel like he's being controlled he might just decide to do it to help.

I don't know you and I certainly don't know how you run your household, so I'm not saying you do this. But I have a friend with a dd about that age, and she is very controlling with her, so the girl has learned to tune her mother out a lot of the time. Then her mom complains to me about how she never listens. I guess my point is that power struggles with toddlers aren't always a good idea, because they reason differently.

As for books, try "Unconditional Parenting" if you haven't read it already. It really changed my perspective on discipline. Even if you don't agree with everything in it, you'll still gain some insight into how your son reasons.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

I agree with mbravebird.

I realize that I want it clean for myself. And I am sure that untill certain age kids could care less whether their room is clean or not. So if I were to ask DD to clean at that age she would see it as rather meaningless activity

I also know that my DD would never go for being "singled out" in being "told what to do". Nobody tells Mommy what to do. Nobody tells Daddy what to do. Why me?

I would do whatever activity I *hope* for the DD to learn cheerefully by myself. Explanation WHY I am doing it may come before or after.

Like "I am going to brush my teeth now" DD may ask "why?" I'd go into age appropriate explanation and LEAVE IT AT THAT. Next day I would do the same thing. About 90% of the time DD will ASK me "Can I do it too?" And I with all seriousness will say "Yes honey, but there is a certain way we do it. Would you like me to show you?" Later on I will call her with me "Let's go do XXX"

Now substitute "brush teeth" for "clean the room", or "go to bed". Same idea. I do it, DD copies. May be not the same day. Not the same week. Not the same month. But I know she will and then she'll be doing it not because "I said so", but because "she wants so", because she sees everybody in the family doing it, because she wants to be a part of the team.

The other day DD cleaned her room all by herself and that included sorting out, putting up on the shelves and straightening (in disagreement with the notion that kids have to be told each cleaning activity separately) I believe she did it do meticulously because *she* wanted to clean. Without being told (well, she never is). After she was done she said "I wanted my room clean mama"

Yes, she is older than your DS, but in all honesty I do not see how a 2.5 yo can internalize the concept of cleanliness... Maybe some are successful in "making" their kids do it at that age. It was never my goal.

PS. Did somebody recommend Continuum Concept? It introduces the idea of kids being a part of society and them taking pride in this fact.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mbravebird*
For example, not cleaning up for him "because that's what he wants" you to do is actually YOU initiating the power struggle. I know it feels fair to you -- I hear ya. But maybe what he needs, and what would avoid the power struggle, is you telling him how you feel when you clean up by yourself -- _as you continue to clean up._ That way you're focusing on the relationship between the two of you, not his compliance or non-compliance. As you de-escalate the situation, he may feel the freedom to follow suit. Or he may not. This is where you may want to "take one for the team", and just continue relationship building, even when he is pushing your 'power struggle' buttons.

Ita with that.
I also noticed (just yesterday actually) with my ds, that part of the reason that he wants to dump his toys as soon as I start cleaning them up, is that (I'm not sure exactly how to say this) cleaning up toys seems so final. Like, ok we're done with them, and done playing. Once I told him that we were going to clean everything up, and he was free to play with anything and everything after we were done cleaning, we're going to get stuff off the floor, but that doesn't mean he can't play with it if he wants to, then he was ok with the cleaning.
He did play with the shape sorter after I put all the shapes in it, but when he was done, he put all the shapes back in it! Then he came to me (I had stopped cleaning to answer the phone) to remind me to pick up the rest of the blocks. lol

Also, I view cleaning as something that we all do to help each other out. I don't want an attitude of "it's your mess, I'm not going to do it" out of my kids, so I don't have one with them. So my ds only picks up 3 blocks most times that I clean up his toys (that's after doing what mbravebird said, and cleaning stuff up and telling him I'd like him to help me). He helps me vaccuum, put dishes away, bring clothes in from the dryer, clean up spills, etc. And he gets me stuff when I ask- stuff that if he even hesitated, I'd do it myself (like "get the remote for me.) lol.

The food throwing, hmmm... Do you think that could be a power struggle too? With ds, I always just told him that I'd prefer if he didn't throw food, it makes a mess, etc. Food is to eat, not to throw. etc. And its never become a big deal. But I don't know if it would have anyway. kwim?
He does drop food to the dogs, and I don't say anything about that. That's not hurting anything.

I love these two articles. Maybe they'll be helpful for you. They really helped me realize that parents can be "in charge" (which imo is natural for kids) and still be (mostly) non-coercive, and respectful of children's desires.
http://www.continuum-concept.org/rea...InControl.html
http://www.scottnoelle.com/parenting/child-centered.htm


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mbravebird*
Both of the things you said above sound like power struggle issues, which are hard for both of you, but *can* be avoided, although it's certainly more difficult with a spirited child. For example, not cleaning up for him "because that's what he wants" you to do is actually YOU initiating the power struggle. I know it feels fair to you -- I hear ya. But maybe what he needs, and what would avoid the power struggle, is you telling him how you feel when you clean up by yourself -- _as you continue to clean up._ That way you're focusing on the relationship between the two of you, not his compliance or non-compliance. As you de-escalate the situation, he may feel the freedom to follow suit. Or he may not. This is where you may want to "take one for the team", and just continue relationship building, even when he is pushing your 'power struggle' buttons.

FWIW, I am not a very "pick up after myself" type of person. I love a clean house, but I only have one about once a week. I am the type of person that lets things get messy and then cleans it all up with great joy and satisfaction. Luckily, my husband is the same way. In our house, you might hear me say to my 2 year old, "It's cleaning day!!" and proceed to fill our morning with cleaning-related activities, which he either marginally helps with or undoes after me. I offer him chances to help many times, which he sometimes takes me up on. I find he feels most satisfied and successful when I give him _very_ specific information, like "Will you put this in the red basket, please?" But if he doesn't want to, or forgets on the way there, or puts it in the blue basket, I don't make an issue of it. At the end of all the cleaning activity, I am usually exclaiming with satisfaction at the room, like "Look how clean it is in here!", because I am genuinely excited about it, and I find he follows suit. He also notices when it is messy, just like I do. It seems that he is actually learning to value the clean house, even though I have never asked him to value that.

The reason I described that to you is not to pressure you into being a less clean person -- I envy you for having a clean house all the time; I would love it. But I am saying that toys being picked up every night does not in itself have intrinsic value. It is something _you_ value, and I think it's totally fair that you communicate that to him. But, in order to avoid power struggles, you may have to cop to the fact that he just doesn't value that cleanliness yet, and by getting into power struggles with him over it, you may actually be tainting whatever future cooperation and enjoyment he may be able to learn from you. You may just want to set the example, find a way to connect with him as you do it, and move on.









This is a great post, and something I need to remember too.


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## marsupial*mama (May 13, 2006)

Quote:

Both of the things you said above sound like power struggle issues, which are hard for both of you, but *can* be avoided, although it's certainly more difficult with a spirited child. For example, not cleaning up for him "because that's what he wants" you to do is actually YOU initiating the power struggle. I know it feels fair to you -- I hear ya. But maybe what he needs, and what would avoid the power struggle, is you telling him how you feel when you clean up by yourself -- as you continue to clean up. That way you're focusing on the relationship between the two of you, not his compliance or non-compliance. As you de-escalate the situation, he may feel the freedom to follow suit. Or he may not. This is where you may want to "take one for the team", and just continue relationship building, even when he is pushing your 'power struggle' buttons.








that

I have enormous issues with the term 'spirited' and other labels for children based on our expectations of their behaviour (don't get me started!







). I think it is enormously rewarding for us parents to stop conditioning our children to fit in that little box that is 'quiet' or 'shy' or 'spirited' or whatever. The more we think of our children in these terms the less capable they will ever be of meeting our expectations for their behaviour.

If we keep obsessing about _outcomes_ (ie, tidying and cleaning up after self) we fail to discover the activities that lubricate our day to day process for everyone in the family. The more _process_ focused we become the easier our relationships with each other drive our behaviour and responses. It's a lifetime of programming to overcome the 'should/shouldn't' mentality of parenting. Trying to think of where I first heard the expression but I regularly ask myself: did I 'should' on anyone today?


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## FrozenMommy (May 25, 2006)

I had a friend who showed me the book she used for her son, about raising a strong-willed child and still using GD...I wish I could remember what it was called.... sorry!

She [my friend] talked about some of her personal struggles with her son, such as when he would do something she didn't want him doing, he would not only admit to it outright but with (what seemed to her to be) a "So? Whaddya gonna do about it?" attitude. And she had to work on changing her mindset to understand that what he was really saying was, "yes, I did it, and because I am self-confident and sure in my actions I have no reason to hide what I did or to be ashamed of it." After changing *her* mindset she was able to curb her anger to work with him instead of "fixing him." It also seems to be that many "strong-willed" children are also highly intelligent, as was definitely the case with her son, and he responded far better to being treated as a human, with mutual respect, than as a pet or sub-human (as mainstream discipline often IMO seems to treat children - not saying YOU do that!).


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## katallen (Jan 4, 2005)

It sounds like you may need to reassess your expectations of him. If he is feeling that they are to high it is going to be hard to get him to listen to any of them. For instance, you mention that he bolts out of the backdoor when he is suppossed to be cleaning. Are you expecting him to do a lot of toys by himself or are you with him showing him how? It is very overwhelming for a small child to look at a huge mess and know where to start, I remember very clearly the frustration that I felt when I was a few years older than he is and expected to clean up my room on my own.

Do you go to him and help him to listen or do you immediately start in on removing privelages and time out. If the second is the case then I would suggest going to him and telling him that you are going to help him listen to your words and then gently guiding him or carrying him to do what you want him to do. I think your idea of limiting the toys to a few is a good one and I would suggest finding other things that you can cut back on to limit the need for confrontation.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Yeah, I don't think it's about the toys for him. I think it's about grabbing back some power.

I would just model cheerfully picking up the toys. I might invite him to help, and take whatever response he gives with a cheerful reply. If he then said, "Don't you want me to help?" I would say, "That's OK, I got it."

If I view my job as facilitator to my kids' exploration and play, then it's a lot easier for me to accept that I'm on "set up and clean up."

Also, if cleaning up feels overwhelming or unpleasant to you, imagine how it might feel to a really little person, you know?

I dont' think making kids clean up teaches them to clean up. I think it teaches them to hate cleaning up and likely resent the person making them.

Here's a link that rocked my world re. chores and cleaning up:

http://sandradodd.com/chores


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

Just chiming in to agree with others who've said that 2yo is *way* too young to be expecting cleanup help. I mean, go for it, but it is just so not worth it, IMO. He will get it, later.

My 2yo is also a food dumper. He gets sandwiches, 2-3 things at a time, or I feed him. He's welcome to protest all he wants. Occasionally I give him more and heavily supervise, but if he tosses it, I consider it MY mistake.

Two year olds are BABIES.


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## Susan Kunkel (Jul 13, 2005)

My 2 year old ds helps me clean up his toys.I tell him lets work together as a team. You put this book in the basket and I will put that one. It takes more time this way but he is so proud of himself when he helps just like big brother.I think a 2 year old can help around the house.However the help must be guided and fun for them.He loves to take clothes out of the dryer and dump it on the floor.That is his helping mommy with laundry.
Su7san


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## accountclosed3 (Jun 13, 2006)

my experience with kids (not my own) is that they really like to help. so instead of demanding that they help, i ask if they want to help.

usually they do. i occupy many of the kids i care for by asking them to help me clean the bathroom, make beds, do laundry, prep meals, clean up toys, etc. of course, i do the majority of the work, but when they help they get a 'good job!' and "you're such an excellent helper!" i let them know that i don't 'need' their help, but that is enjoy their help and it is very much appreciated.

i mostly take care of other's children--even spirited ones. in fact, i like the spirited ones best because they're the most fun to play with and the most fun to have as helpers. they're very eager to do a good job and get praised for it (with a hug and kiss, and with really spirited ones, it becomes a tickle game too).

most parents are surprised when they come home to helpful, cheery, well behaved kids who offer to help them do laundry, clean the bathroom, or put toys away.

we even make up songs for cleaning which helps a lot too. i'll start singing it and then the kids will hear it and come over and say "can i help?" and i say "i'd love your help, because you're such a great helper!" and then we go from there. it's pretty fun.


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mbravebird*
The reason I described that to you is not to pressure you into being a less clean person -- I envy you for having a clean house all the time; I would love it. But I am saying that toys being picked up every night does not in itself have intrinsic value. It is something _you_ value, and I think it's totally fair that you communicate that to him. But, in order to avoid power struggles, you may have to cop to the fact that he just doesn't value that cleanliness yet, and by getting into power struggles with him over it, you may actually be tainting whatever future cooperation and enjoyment he may be able to learn from you. You may just want to set the example, find a way to connect with him as you do it, and move on.

Oh, our house is definately not clean, and I don't even mind when just a couple things are out and I don't care if they're on the wrong shelf or whatnot. But I should take a picture of it one day--toys literally from one end of the floor to another--at that point, it's a safety issue. He has a lot of wooden toys that *hurt* when you step on them. And it's the family room in a split level ranch that his toys are in--meaning if toys are from one end to the other, it's blocking the only exit out of the house from that floor and can lead to tripping on the stairs. A couple toys on the floor, I could care less. But it's the purposeful dumping of entire shelves-worth of toys all over the place and then kicking them around and trying to throw them at the fireplace (which will shatter the toys).

I never pull out the time-outs, etc. unless all resources have been exhausted. Normally we clean together. But, what I can't do is clean everything *for* him while he's going behind me and tipping baskets and shelves over again. And that's exactly what he does. It's dangerous (he's tripped over toys and caused bleeding gashes on his body, but since he apparently has no pain awareness, he doesn't stop to realize that it was because he threw an entire basket of wooden blocks on the floor and then tripped over them because there was nowhere else to walk).

We don't have an extra room in the house to use as just a toy room--otherwise, it probably wouldn't be a problem because we wouldn't have to carry out our day to day activities in it. But our family room has his toys and has my office (where I'm trying to run 2 businesses and finish my PhD in) and I can't have it be a fire and tripping hazard (plus it irks me to no end to watch him take a $20 wooden toy and chuck it at the brick fireplace, shattering the toy).

I don't believe that 30 1/2 months old is too young to help clean--he loves to help clean...everything but his own toys. But, I do believe that the natural consequence of dumping everything you own on the floor is that eventually you have to pick it back up. I can't for the life of me wrap my mind around the natural consequence of trashing the house is letting someone else clean it while you go behind them and trash it more. I want to help him learn that this is the family space and he needs to share it with the family. He used to help us clean his toys all the time and loved it and it was a really fun game, but it's been in the past couple months that he's gotten into the habit of going behind us and dumping twice as much as was cleaned up. Imagine what a room looks like when you own every haba food item and it's being dumped and kicked all over the floor, including pieces of pasta, etc. Not a pretty site at all.









I'm really not all that strict with him because that's just not the way I am...I think DH thinks that's the problem with it. I made things into a fun game and now Dh thinks DS runs wild and won't listen to anyone anymore. I admire you mamas who can just let it go and clean it by yourself. I personally can't do that because of a) the safety issue and b) if I have to do it one more time knowing that if I look behind me he is dumping everything right back out and kicking it around again and throwing it in order to break it I think I may go insane.







: and c) I know he *can* do it--he is physically and cognitively able to. He is just in a stage where he refuses anything and everything that we ask him (including "please do not run into the road" or "please ask mama before you open up the back door" )


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllyRae*
Oh, our house is definately not clean, and I don't even mind when just a couple things are out and I don't care if they're on the wrong shelf or whatnot. But I should take a picture of it one day--toys literally from one end of the floor to another--at that point, it's a safety issue. He has a lot of wooden toys that *hurt* when you step on them. And it's the family room in a split level ranch that his toys are in--meaning if toys are from one end to the other, it's blocking the only exit out of the house from that floor and can lead to tripping on the stairs. A couple toys on the floor, I could care less. But it's the purposeful dumping of entire shelves-worth of toys all over the place and then kicking them around and trying to throw them at the fireplace (which will shatter the toys).

OK, well now that you say this, I say you're right on about putting away most of the toys in storage. I would NOT make it a punitive gesture, but I would definitely do it. My mantra is always prevention, and if he doesn't have enough toys to spread all from hell to breakfast, he won't. If he asks about it, I would say something about how you don't like to fight about cleaning them up and you are worried about him hurting himself when he falls on them, so you're going to rotate them now. Plus they'll probably be more fun for him if he hasn't seen them in a while.

My kids have tons of toys. People love to buy them huge plastic battery eating monstrosities, they have both a rocking sheep and a rocking horse, and have inherited a whole lot more. But they really rarely play with most of them. They just get them out on the way to the ones they always do play with.







:


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllyRae*
Normally we clean together. But, what I can't do is clean everything *for* him while he's going behind me and tipping baskets and shelves over again. And that's exactly what he does.

It sounds like THAT's what you need to focus on then, and not making him help you clean up. Try to figure out why he dumps out toys behind you. Like I said before, I just realized that my ds would dump toys back out because putting them away signified some sort of finality (is that a word? lol). After I realized that, and told him that just wanted to put all the toys away, and vacuum, and he could get anything back out after that, he's quite different about having the toys picked up.
Have you explained to ds exactly what it is you want to accomplish? I know that sounds simplistic, but a lot of times, I realize that when I'm trying to find a good way to say something to ds, the very best thing to say is the completely honest truth. Does that make sense? So, instead of my telling ds that the toys need to be picked up, that its a mess if they're not, etc, I tell him that I want them to be picked up so I can vacuum. Or even just that I like the way it looks when the floor is cleared.
I think putting away some of the toys is a great idea. It sounds like your ds has a lot of toys! Plus, stuff if more fun if they haven't played with them for a while. All of ds's toys could be out, and we'd still be able to walk around them in the living room. It would drive me crazy though. lol


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## annab (Mar 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *marsupial*mama*
I have enormous issues with the term 'spirited' and other labels for children based on our expectations of their behaviour (don't get me started!







). I think it is enormously rewarding for us parents to stop conditioning our children to fit in that little box that is 'quiet' or 'shy' or 'spirited' or whatever. The more we think of our children in these terms the less capable they will ever be of meeting our expectations for their behaviour.

I stayed away from Raising Your Spirited Child for a long time for this reason. I love Alfie Kohn, and I could not really get my head around this label. But once you read how that is defined:
http://www.parentchildhelp.com/Spiri...9/Default.aspx
this book is not at all about changing behaviors. It is about having a child who is MORE and accepting that this is temperament to be framed positively, celebrated and enjoyed. She explains that 'spirited' children are hard wired to be more work than other kids.

It really helped me see that this is who my son is. He is not a basket case; he is intense. He is not ignoring me; he is just paying very focused attention to something else. He is not a melt-down, tantrum-prone kid for any other reason than he is slow to adapt to transition. It reminded me that he has qualities that will challenge me daily.

It showed me that these are the parameters I have to work with. It helped me let go of trying to change him and instead be proud of the traits that make him hard to parent. It helped me to be able to let go of trying to have him meet my expectations. I realized that I am a spirited parent and that this was the root of our conflict. Once I ID'ed these traits and when they collide, our house became much more peaceful.


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

One more thought about the 2yo being "cognitively able" to clean up. I think it's a mistake to assume a child can do something regularly, on cue, just because they've actually done it before at various times. We're talking about two totally different abilities:
1. cleaning up toys
and
2. having the emotional readiness to consistently do something I don't feel like doing, just because I'm asked

In my opinion, #1 is very easy for any toddler and #2 is much, much more unusual in toddlers.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllyRae*
Amen to that one. The Fussy Baby Book was my lifeline when he was a colicky high needs baby. Now that he's a very strong willed almost-preschooler it's a whole different ballgame.







: I should have seen this one coming when he became way too independent.

I haven't tried that book yet--I'm going to see if my library has it and if so, I'm headed there tonight. I'll try anything. I don't want to break his spirit or cause him to lose his strong will. But I want to know how to work with it so that I'm not stressed every time I know that we're going into another multihour battle.

He does have a book called the fussy baby book, from birth to age five, that has some pretty good ideas for the spirited child.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Good point Amy!


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

That is a good point Amy...he definately doesn't get that sometimes we have to do things we don't want to do.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllyRae*
But, I do believe that the natural consequence of dumping everything you own on the floor is that eventually you have to pick it back up. I can't for the life of me wrap my mind around the natural consequence of trashing the house is letting someone else clean it while you go behind them and trash it more.

I think you mean "logical consequence." A natural consequences happens, well, naturally.







It doesn't need to be engineered.

Dd is a chaos-beastie. Dumping toys is her idea of FUN. It is its own reward for her. Aggravating for me, but a hoot in her eyes.

She rarely helps clean up, she is fabulously non-compliant, and I embrace the term spirited. [I'm a spirited adult!]

Quote:

I want to help him learn that this is the family space and he needs to share it with the family. He used to help us clean his toys all the time and loved it and it was a really fun game, but it's been in the past couple months that he's gotten into the habit of going behind us and dumping twice as much as was cleaned up. Imagine what a room looks like when you own every haba food item and it's being dumped and kicked all over the floor, including pieces of pasta, etc. Not a pretty site at all.








I don't have to imagine it - I live the dream.







I think in time dd will start to help more, of her own volition. When I clean, I ask her to help. I don't make a big deal of it when she doesn't. I've chosen to keep asking, and trust that she will to grow up.

We're non-punitive, which is a mighty struggle with a strong willed child. I've had to give up a lot of my ideas about what "should" happen, and how she "should" act. On the other hand, I've seen her blossom in many ways and I know that she can grow to be be a compassionate vibrant adult without punishment-inspired consequences.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I agree with much that has been said above about expectations, developmental appropriateness, and using prevention as much as possible in small children. My son is almost 29 months, so I'm right about where you are age wise. It's been said here and in many other threads that while a small child (and I'm thinking under 3 or 4, here) may "know" what to do or not to do, there is so much more to it than that, and that because their empathy and impulse control isn't even close to fully developed, it's asking a lot for them to be able to follow through on a lot of things, without a significant amount of control/conditioning...which in and of itself isn't *necessarily* a bad thing, but it can become the outline for increasing intensity and number of power struggles in other aspect of daily life.

Up to that certain age (which will be different for every child, since every child is an individual) when impulse control and empathy magically "click", I personally feel like it's my job to:
1) "Proof" as much as possible to prevent situations that bug me from happening.
2) Not expect follow through on kiddo's part a vast majority of the time, BUT still lay out my expectations to him so he "hears" them.
3) Set situations up for success...

So for the cleaning up - I totally hear you about the mess, and the safety hazards (I nearly impaled my foot on a metal car trunk last week), a couple weeks ago I did a major reorg and purge of toys, and only left out what I was comfortable with beign strewn about for the better part of the day. Going along with what Deva33 had to say, I believe that the act of cleaning up throughout the day was too "final" for DS...so I felt it was my job to reconfigure the situation. Now, we don't clean up until it's time to go to bed....and I'm OK with the level of mess that's out and about during the day (it's not dangerous or a walking hazard), the WHOLE day. Every morning, he gleefully dumps every single tub of toys, and then plays randomly with them throughout the day. And, I've become OK with that, because there are less toys out...and, he's started actually *playing* with the toys that are out, instead of being overwhelmed by the sheer amount of 'stuff" available to him, KWIM? And at night time, the very last thing we do before bath is clean up. Sometimes he's very into it, sometiems he's not. Either way it gets done, and I usually only have to remind him once that it's time for bed and all toys go away, and he doesn't try to re-dump them....now, if I try to straighten up durign the day for whatever reason, they'll end up back on the floor in a heartbeat. But that's OK....I don't worry that he's gonna be the same way when he's 6, cause the expectation of him helping at the end of the night is there every time....and he usually helps, even if it's only 1 toy, I still consider that helping at this point. I think I said in another thread something like, we don't expect a 6 yo to master calculus without going through simple math first...so I'm not worried that at 2-1/2 my kid doesn't want to clean....at 32, *I* don't want to clean most of the time....but I have the impulse control, foresight, and other emotional and intellectual abilities to see that cleaning does serve a purpose. So he sometimes puts toys away and sometimes doesn't - he sees it happening every night, hears me letting him know we expect help, and he hears us thank him when he does help, and that reinforces it all....and it will eventually click. I talk to him during cleanup about workign together, etc., so it's not like we (DH and I) just sit there and do it all silently while he ignores us.

As far as the food, when he was in a pitching stage, I just limited the amount on his tray to 2 or 3 bites, end of story. Prevention was the key to me on that one. He sometimes protested or asked for more, and that was fine, but if he only had a couple things to toss, my stress level was WAY lower than an entire plate of spaghetti on the wall and floor....and when stuff did get pitched, I'd say in a very low key, monotone voice something like "food is for your mouth/belly/eating, not for throwing. Please keep it on your tray" and that was about it. The less power and reaction I gave to his throwing, the less enticing it was to him.

I understand where you're coming from, but I do think that a lot of this does have to come from you still at this stage in the game. If he was 6, I'd maybe put more on him, but he's just 2-1/2...SO new to everything still. Just my humble opinion, feel free to take or leave any part of it!


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

Just had to post here again since I fell for it again:

My food tossing child was having a hard time with corn on the cob. He liked it when I cut some off for him, so I gave him the corn in a dish. Should have taken the time to sit and give him bites.










will I ever learn?

Damp food is the worst because it doesn't sweep with a broom well.


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## ILuvMyBaby (Feb 24, 2004)

Hey Ally,
My son has ASD so I know how hard it is. We just started having ABA therapy (about 6 weeks) and we have noticed a huge difference in our son. He is in therapy around 30 hours a week total with all his ABA and EI services. For us it has been a lifesaver... He had a lot of OCD issues related to the ASD. Do you notice Brandon doing any patterns when it is time to clean up? Or maybe his pattern is that he wants you to clean up at home? These patterns are hard to break, or at least for us they were. We needed professional help, maybe if your son does get a diagnosis the therapists will have some ideas for you. Right now I am really here to just offer you hugs and a







.

It does sound like the toys thing could be your son thinking it is final. I would probably just clear out all the toys and only have a couple and nothing like blocks or something that I need to really clean up a lot of. Once he is comfortable in this setting then I would add more toys. Maybe he is just overwhelmed...Not sure what else to say...sorry hun. O' and I wanted to add that my son will not pick up anything unless it is on his terms. Since we have so many battles, this is one we are choosing not to really fight. We suggest it and make it fun but sometimes we just clean up after he is in bed.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PancakeGoddess*
Just had to post here again since I fell for it again:

My food tossing child was having a hard time with corn on the cob. He liked it when I cut some off for him, so I gave him the corn in a dish. Should have taken the time to sit and give him bites.










will I ever learn?

Damp food is the worst because it doesn't sweep with a broom well.

Have you considered getting a dog? Dog ownership is guaranteed to remove most of your concern and worry about food spillage. You just come in with the mop after the tongue.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

I agree totally about the removing toys to the extent that you are comfortable with the amount he can strew about at any one time. That does have the added benefit of making it for them to PLAY with toys. When we get too many toys in the house, my kids quit playing and staring pushing them around.

Since he's got SID, I do think you need to look at this both from a 'typical' gentle discipline stance and an SID stance. Some things he may be physically capable of doing, but not able to carry out. Since it sounds like he's hyposensitive, he CANNOT learn from falling on the toys and getting hurt. He doesn't feel it!! So, prevention, prevention, prevention is what's key.

I'd also look really, really hard into finding acceptable alternatives for him. What does he love about dumping the bins? Is it the heavy, large motor stuff? Is it just dumping? Can you set up a designated 'dumping' spot (maybe some large laundry baskets that he can dump toys in and out of)? What else can you get him that involves heavy lifting and deep pressure stuff? (Talk to your OT about this). Our son spent an entire YEAR playing "garbage truck" where he would take every toy he owned, put them in bins and dump them on the couch, climbing up and down on my dh (who works from home) to 'drive' the truck to the next house. So, I feel your pain about having every single toy out all the time. I used to joke that we would never be robbed because the robbers wouldn't be able to get past the front door without falling!

What is it about throwing toys against the fire place that he likes? Our son, who has mild SID, LOVED to throw his puzzle pieces across the wooden floor. He'd start every day with that, and we'd pick them up when he went to bed. Was it the sound? The feeling of throwing? Can you figure that out for your son? Maybe get him some nerf balls or squishy cloth balls that he CAN throw. Or can you put something up on your fireplace to make it softer? (OK, it's not great decorating, but for a long time, we had an exercise mat at the bottom of the stairs so that when our toddler fell down them, she wouldn't die on the slate floor). Can you find ways for him to kick/jump and get the large motor sensations he needs?

Finally -- cut yourself and him some slack. You sound like you are in a VERY stressful place right now. You've recently lost a baby, you're running 2 businesses, working on a Ph.D. and have a child who is close to, if not on, the PDD spectrum. And add to that the typical toddler contrariness and this is a recipe for one very frustrated mom! What can you do to lessen the stress? I find that I'm much more able to deal with my children's behavior (and they're suddenly much better behaved







) when MY stress is lessened. What can you do to get yourself some time to recover/work through your grief/work on your Ph.D.?

Oh and really finally -- I like the book "Parenting wiht Purpose" by Linda Madison because it has some nice tips talks in a nice, sensible way about what to expect (and what's reasonable to expect) for 1, 2, 3 and 4 year olds. (I don't like some of her advice for 4 year olds, but it's great for 1s and 2s!) Have you read "The Highly Sensitive Child"? "The out of sync child"? "Raising a Sensory Smart Child?" (both pretty stardard for SID kids).

Two other ones that are newer and might help:
The Sensory-Sensitive Child : Practical Solutions for Out-of-Bounds Behavior by Karen A. Smith
Sensational Kids : Hope and Help for Children with Sensory Processing Disorder by Lucy ******


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PancakeGoddess*
Damp food is the worst because it doesn't sweep with a broom well.

Just let it dry! That's what we do at our house.







Who needs to sweep their floors more than once a week anyway???


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

dog: had one, wasn't worth the cleanup value. stinky, hairy and way way too loud.







I'm really just not into doggies. My mom took ours and they are a very happy match.

letting it dry: I like the way you think. In this case, it had to be swept - the other two kids and dp were in and out right through this patch of kitchen floor and they'd never have been able to keep from stepping in it.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

My ds did the same kind of dumping. His motivation was to tease me. Sometimes he would get upset if dh put his things away, because he didn't like his things disappearing or dh being controlling. I limited his toys to ones w/o many pieces. That helped tremendously. I also just didn't clean up frequently. It wasn't until he turned 4, that I felt he was ready for things like legos from the dumping perspective.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

as for the food dumping......how you thought of a mat you can put around his seating area? I have a big plastic sheet mat that my mom got me to use under the high chair to prevent food on the floor







You could probably make one out of some plastic or a tarp.


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## soybeansmama (Jan 26, 2006)

I just wanted to say something in regards to the food throwing...these are just some things that worked for us.

Sawyer (2 and a half) did this until we put away the high chair. First we had "picnics" on a sheet on the kitchen floor. It wasn't fun for him to throw food anymore because he wasn't up high and for some reason throwing it accross the room was boring to him. We also would pretend that we were doggies and just eat from our bowls with our mouths (doesnt work with all food) so that way he didn't have anything in his hands to throw and it was fun enough that he forgot about throwing the food. We got rid of the high chair over a year ago and a friend passed on a toddler size table and chairs. He eats better when he is alowed to graze and we don't force him to stay seated. We set food out and just tell him its time to eat and he usually gets up once or twice then sits down on his own to finish.

I have found with him everything has to be HIS IDEA. He wants to be the one to make a good decision...anyway, just wanted to share!


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Dd has never been much of a food tosser but we occasionally watch another child that is. We eat outside for those meals when possible







We also let food dry before we sweep it up if it is tedious to get cleaned up otherwise. for some reason cat puke comes out of carpet better when dried too.......

Back OT.....

My dd is a little older and still has zero interest in picking up toys. I never really thought they were suppose to be OK with that at this young of an age. she dumps all of her toys too and also enjoys taking apart ALL of the furniture so that jumping on the couch to Beastie Boys videos is more fun







: It can be maddening but I do my very best to ignore it. I am a neat freak. I clean up her toys. More and more she is helping me. I do not ask her to, she just does. It is her house too and I try to not be so bossy about how it is kept. I am responsible for keeping it clean (as in not dirty). If I want it to be not-messy, I feel that it is my responisbility to make it so. Dd likes it messy. Which person's preference wins? Dd is happy to help keep it picked up for special occasions. Like if we are going to have a dinner party, I explain that it is a special occasion and ask her if she would be willing to leave the living room intact. I also help her stick to her agreement by having her help me prepare food or setting her up near me with playdough or paint. But that is a recent phenomenon. To the OP: It will pass. If you can find a way to not stress so much about it, that might be the easier path than trying to get your ds to do something he is not ready or willing to do.

I vividly remember this battle with my parents when I was little. They eventually gave up when my sister came along but they were really into trying to get me to clean up when I was 3 and 4 years old. I had a playroom/office that ws attached to the living room. Each day, piece by piece, all of the toys would migrate into the living room so I could play closer to where my mom was (watching general hospital). After dinner, my dad would try and get me to put all of the toys back. I remember very well thinking it was am impossible job, being confused as to what exactly I was suppose to do, and wondering why I could not just leave the toys there to avoid all of the hard work of moving them again in the morning. I understand now that my parents just wanted their house to look somewhat normal for a few hours each evening. But i did not see or understand that at all at the time even though they tried to explain it to me. As the battle escalated, I remember peeing my pants in frustration and panic. I remember having temper tantrums and talking back. Like I said, they eventually moved to a more relaxed parenting approach and I had a great childhood, but I do remember that power struggle. Maybe that is even the one that had them shopping for new approaches. I should ask my mom. But anyway, it is one of my earliest memories.


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

since he likes dumping the bins, can you make a mental shift and "play" that?

like instead of building and stacking (typical play/use of blocks and such), can you use the time and energy you're not using doing that to play the clean-up and dump game (his preferred use of blocks and such)?

then just wait til he's in bed and clean up for the night?

especially if he's got some sensory issues, it seems pretty important to honor his need for this. and as we know, if the need is met, it won't be a need anymore.


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