# I...have...HAD IT!!! with DD's food issues.



## seashells (Jan 23, 2009)

DD is just about 5 years old. She's a peanut and has been around the 3rd percentile of the growth chart for years.

Some good things we do:
- We NEVER make her eat anything. We don't bribe. We don't cajole. The closest thing we do is sometimes make a game out of eating if she's reluctant (like pretending the food is screaming for mercy... lol, sounds awful but it's funny and it can work) but even that is not coercive. She chooses to go along with it, she'll open her mouth for the screaming food if she wants. No, we don't scream the food often, maybe once a week.

- We present her food and she decides what she wants off the table and how much she wants. We never make her clean her plate or eat something she doesn't want.

BUT. Obviously we screwed up majorly along the way somewhere.

- She loves cereal. She would live on cereal, night and day, if she could. I personally think cereal is about as valuable to the body as a sock on the ear, but my DH worries about her calorie intake and keeps boxes and boxes of cereal around.

- She had a handful of decent foods that she used to like, and one by one they drop off. Take rice and beans, I make a very rich, cheesy, eggy rice and beans dish, it's delicious and has a decent amount of protein for an otherwise carbohydrate-addicted child. But suddenly she stopped liking it. Ditto the pasta and veggies with a cream sauce dish she used to love. Ditto eggs. And so on.

The thing that is driving me absolutely bonkers right now is that she will REQUEST a certain food (either out of the blue, or maybe for dinner I'll say "would you like X or Y" and she'll show enthusiasm for one or the other if I'm lucky). And then she will Not. Eat. A. Bite.

I admit I get really pissy about this. I'm not complaining about her not cleaning her plate. I'm complaining about her deciding she would like to snack on an orange, having an orange peeled for her, and then having to throw the perfectly good orange in the GARBAGE (or eat it myself, though I am 30 pounds overweight and certainly don't need to add the job role of "family dog licking plates" to my duties).

I recently estimated we throw away $40 a week, 40% of our food budget, away. Because of DD.

Yes, this is our fault and not DD's. I understand this. I DON'T, however, understand how we got here and what to do about it. I do understand food waste is a fact of raising kids, but not to this degree.

Some refused foods I will put in the fridge and say that when she's hungry she can eat it. And the next meal is just that food and tough luck if she doesn't feel like it then. Either she's hungry and she'll eat the food, or she's not hungry. This tactic has been a dismal failure thus far.

Other foods it's not really realistic to do that - like oatmeal with berries (this is what she got excited about for breakfast yesterday, I made it for her, and she sniffed it and said it was too hot, she went off to play to let it cool down, I called her back after a few minutes and told her it was cool enough, she sniffed and said she didn't want it. ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!). Oatmeal is just going to get all nasty mushy in the fridge.

We have long since been asking her "are you SURE?" Like, she'll want an egg. "OK, are you SURE? Because I will be boiling this egg special for you." "YES, I really want an egg!!" "So you're going to actually eat it, right?" "Yes, yummy!" "Here's your egg." "I don't want it."

I've told her "You know, we don't believe you anymore when you say you want a food. What should we do? How can we believe you if you say you want a food?" But she doesn't really understand.

So here's what I'm thinking, what do you think?

- Goodbye cereal. No more cereal. She doesn't get to rely on cereal as a backup. I have to get my DH on board with this because he is scared to death that she'll actually starve to death, and feels that feeding her crappy cereal is better than nothing. But my hope is that if cereal is not an option, she might actually eat, you know, food.

- I would still like to give her choices for dinner. I don't just say "what do you want for dinner" - I know that's absurd. But I like to say "would you like rice and beans or pasta with brocolli?" But maybe I should not ask her for her input at all, EVER.

- I am also thinking maybe her bedtime snack should be slowly rescinded. She needs to eat during the day. Right now she will just not eat and then her dad will take her downstairs before bed and feed her cereal. She should have dinner and that's it, that's best for the body. It's like she's just holding out. DH does it because he's concerned, I know why. But I feel like the status quo is not acceptable, and we need to change it.

- And I need to stop being angry about it, but it's so hard. I am honestly angry about it. I really am. If we didn't waste $40 a week on food going straight into the garbage, we could eat more meat. We could eat better food. Maybe I could even eventually afford dental care for myself. Children everywhere eat the food they get, and they are damn grateful for it to boot. I was a picky eater but I never behaved like this. I'd avoid eating the veggies on my plate but I'd make do with the rest - the roll of bread, the applesauce, I'd pick at the pork chops I didn't like but, hey, I was hungry. Ditto my husband. I don't know where we went wrong to teach her so much disrespect of food and resources when DH and I value them very much.


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## BethLS (Mar 14, 2006)

Seashells,

I couldn't read and not post! Though, Im afraid I don't have much, if anything, to say that could help you.









Although my oldest is "picky" (and small too! She was a 2 pounder at birth and she's a skilly little welp!) we're certainly not in your boat at all. Im so sorry you have to go through this!

I agree that 40$ a week is a lot of food waste that could otherwise be spent on other, high quality foods. Thats a ton of food/money in a years time!

Have you tried having her help you find and prepare her food?

Good luck! Maybe some other MDC'ers can be of more help!


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## wednesday2004 (May 22, 2005)

This probably isn't going to help you much and I have a child with food issues also.
I'll tell you about my mom quick. When she was a child she had food issues and she was born shortly after the depression ended and her family was poor to start with. There were just some foods she would not eat, no way, no how. She would go literally 3 days without eating if there was no choice but those particular foods, at that point her mom would give in. I 100% believe she would of starved herself before eating them. She still will not touch them these days.

When my youngest started showing his food issues I decided that was a battle I wasn't going to even get into. As long as he eats things from each food group and he gets enough calories, I call it good. Yes, I really would like it if he'd try new things and eat more of a variety of foods and it would make it easier for supper, but after hearing all my life from my moms perspective, I'm just going to let him include things at his own pace. I always have one thing on his plate that he will eat and I include things I'd like him to eat. Those usually end up thrown out so it's a v-e-r-y small serving. on the odd occasion he actually eats them, then I give him more.
As far as not eating what she already told you she would, is it possible to have her help make it, that might increase the odds of her eating it.
All that said, there are some dry cereals that really aren't that bad. There is a difference between raisin bran and cocoa puffs. Would she let you at least add fruit.


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## seashells (Jan 23, 2009)

She definitely is my cook's assistant, though not for everything. I'm not comfortable with her handling the stove at all yet, not even just to pour something into boiling water. She's still 4. But she does a lot of other stuff with me, measuring rice and pouring it in (I put the rice in cold water to start with). Also baking is something she does well with me, but the results of baking aren't exactly what I'm trying to increase her intake of  Like pies and cobblers and stuff.

Being involved with food does pique her interest but it doesn't always go too far. I'm VERY interested in food issues, and my diet is almost exclusively from the farm (but her diet is pretty much from the grocery store). We go to farms all the time, at least every week if not more. We pick stuff. The child does not eat vegetables but I can count on her eating about 40 peas the day the sugar snap peas are ready for harvest. (Though she would never DREAM of eating them with dinner - only on the field).

We have a garden. She has plants of her very own. There's 3 heads of brocolli that belong entirely to her. I'm sure she'll eat them (she only eats them with pasta but I can live with that) but then again I'm not certain anymore, since the last time we had brocolli she refused to eat it and said she didn't like it anymore.

She doesn't like eggs anymore. I feel a whole lot better when I can get an egg or two into her each week. But she does not like them anymore, at all, in any preparation (even devilled).

She does not like meat much, but a year ago we discovered she liked hamburgers if they are drowned in ketchup. Fine. We eat local, grassfed meat. (Like I said, nutrition and food are big interests of mine, so it's that much more frustrating to me to have a Kellogg's addict). For July 4 I watched her eat two entire hamburgers and I was over the moon. Some protein in her, finally! I told DH, maybe we should not have them TOO often, maybe she gets tired of food. So we hae burgers about every other week. Last time (3 days ago) she barely touched hers. I know what's coming next time we make them. "I don't like hamburgers."

She used to like french fries that I baked. I'll bake them in bacon fat or beef fat (or just olive oil, if that's all I've got around). I put some salt on them. She can have whatever ketchup she wants, I don't care. So potato season just started, and I baked some fries. You got it. "No thanks." FRENCH FRIES. Come on, guys, what child does not like french fries? And mine are not like health store french fries, they are dripping in yummy fat. These are world class fries.

I could go on and on. And apparently I have, sorry, I guess I write really long posts. I'm tempted by taking a really strict line - but of course I don't want to cause further problems. The last thing I want is to raise a kid with food issues.


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## SollysMom (Jan 5, 2008)

My older son (almost 3) is also incredibly picky and doesn't eat much. Luckily he still nurses so I don't really worry, but I know one day he won't nurse anymore and I will try to continue not worrying.

I recently read a LLL book called _My Child Won't EAT!_ and it was pretty helpful. Not in getting him to eat more, just in adjusting my expectations. Kids really don't need very many calories and they're very unlikely to starve themselves. The author's advice would be to give her LESS than you think she can eat and let her ask for more if she wants it. And, to keep food you know she likes on hand as an option but only if it's easy/convenient, not to make a separate meal. So, if you're having pasta and you think she can eat 5 noodles, give her 3 to start. Not 3 spoonfuls, 3 noodles. If she doesn't eat them (or if she does and doesn't ask for more) you can offer some of whatever side dish you're having and repeat the process. If you have a healthy cereal on hand or some cheese or yogurt or whatever else you know she likes that is easy, she can know she can always ask for that if she wants it. My husband also had food issues growing up so it's very important to him that we don't try to force DS1 to try/eat things if he doesn't want to. I keep offering without any judgement/reward/gameplaying, and once in a blue moon he'll surprise me and accept something.

As far as the food waste issue, if I were in your shoes I'd probably do two things... (1) feed her BEFORE you eat (for snacks at least), and only things that you like too, so you won't have a problem eating what she doesn't finish, and (2) make her smaller portions. If she asks for oatmeal, maybe just make 1/4 cup of oatmeal (or less) instead of a full serving size.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seashells* 
Yes, this is our fault and not DD's. I understand this. I DON'T, however, understand how we got here and what to do about it. I do understand food waste is a fact of raising kids, but not to this degree.

- I am also thinking maybe her bedtime snack should be slowly rescinded. She needs to eat during the day. Right now she will just not eat and then her dad will take her downstairs before bed and feed her cereal. She should have dinner and that's it, that's best for the body. It's like she's just holding out. DH does it because he's concerned, I know why. But I feel like the status quo is not acceptable, and we need to change it.


Maybe your DDs pickiness about food isn't your fault. Maybe you didn't do anything wrong and she's just picky.

I would stop fixing her snacks that can't be used if she doesn't want it. For example fix her oatmeal if you haven't eaten and might would want it or save the boiled egg for egg salad or tuna. If you feel she's 'holding out' then there's still a conflict going on about food, even if it's a beneath the surface conflict. Feeling pressure to eat could be making her resistant to eating, depending on the whys of her pickiness. Food can be an issue where kids assert control over their self and any kind of pressure can make it worse.

I wouldn't cut out a bedtime snack. Most kids need one to sleep well and some adults need one to keep their blood sugar stable during the night. When you say cereal, what specific types of cereal are you talking about. Some cereals are high fiber, high protein or low sugar and some are worse nutritionally than a candy bar. The problem is you may not want to take away the few things your DD will eat. It could be easier to just supplement and stop worrying about what she eats. Have you tried counseling or any type of assessment to see if there is an underlying problem?


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## seashells (Jan 23, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wednesday2004* 
This probably isn't going to help you much and I have a child with food issues also.
I'll tell you about my mom quick. When she was a child she had food issues and she was born shortly after the depression ended and her family was poor to start with. There were just some foods she would not eat, no way, no how. She would go literally 3 days without eating if there was no choice but those particular foods, at that point her mom would give in. I 100% believe she would of starved herself before eating them. She still will not touch them these days.

Wow, I had actually wondered if there were any kids like that. It seems to me that picky eaters are a product of privilege. But maybe there are some real exceptions to that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wednesday2004* 
When my youngest started showing his food issues I decided that was a battle I wasn't going to even get into. As long as he eats things from each food group and he gets enough calories, I call it good.

Yeah, I'd call that good too but we haven't acheived that. She's 32 pounds (and 5 in a few weeks). How we've avoided the FTT label is probably just a miracle, thought partly because we haven't, well, taken her to a doctor in a few years.

She does not eat from each food group unless you count "the cereal group" and "the frozen pizza group" as the food pyramid. The few foods outside of these "groups" are diminishing so rapidly that the only thing I can think of that she'll eat now besides those are fruit and bean burritos. Those are fine, I think, but I think there's a very good chance bean burritos are going to disappear from DD's menu of choice very soon. (She'll probably keep liking fruit though).

Again, I am talking about a child who LIVES on Kellogg's cereal and frozen Elio's pizza. At this point we've gone beyond picky. This is in "ridiculous" territory.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wednesday2004* 
Yes, I really would like it if he'd try new things and eat more of a variety of foods and it would make it easier for supper, but after hearing all my life from my moms perspective, I'm just going to let him include things at his own pace. I always have one thing on his plate that he will eat and I include things I'd like him to eat. Those usually end up thrown out so it's a v-e-r-y small serving. on the odd occasion he actually eats them, then I give him more.

Again, what I worry about is not that she won't try new foods. But she is refusing all her old foods and now lives on a diet that makes me wonder if she is special needs of some sort. It reminds me of that Mary McCracken book where the boy ate nothing but chocolate milk and crackers. Literally. Nothing. Else. And did he have issues? Oh, yes he did.

I cannot put "one" thing on her plate that she'll eat anymore. I used to. Olives and feta cheese maybe. She doesn't eat those anymore. Apples spread with peanut butter. She won't eat those anymore. Not a nibble. Flat out will. not. eat.

I don't know if I'm making it clear enough, I'm not trying to get her on a world class diet. I would be taking her to a doctor if I trusted any. (I have found them to be worse than useless over the last 5 years). We need intervention!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wednesday2004* 
As far as not eating what she already told you she would, is it possible to have her help make it, that might increase the odds of her eating it.

I have tried, these days it increases the odds of her _sniffing_ the food before refusing it, as opposed to outright refusing it. I have had times I've wanted to throw the food on the wall because she'd be so excited about making whatever - oatmeal with berries we picked - and she'd pour it in and pick out the berries and ask if it's ready yet. And then she'll say it's too hot. And then a few minutes later she'll say she doesn't want it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wednesday2004* 
All that said, there are some dry cereals that really aren't that bad. There is a difference between raisin bran and cocoa puffs. Would she let you at least add fruit.

I don't think there's much difference between raisin bran and cocoa puffs, no. Post Raisin bran is 30.4% sugar by dry weight. Cocoa Puffs is 33.3% sugar. (Source: http://www.karlloren.com/diet/p35.htm). And that's just the sugar part... the vitamins and minerals are denuded and not accessible to the body. It's better than full-on starving, I'll give you that. And I wouldn't even whine that much about it if it were just breakfast, but this is my child's DIET. Cardboard with 1/3 sugar by weight, basically. She's a growing child, she needs FOOD, with real vitamins and minerals and protein to help her grow and function. Sorry, after reading Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, I just can't be convinced that a diet of cereal is acceptable.


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## seashells (Jan 23, 2009)

I think offering her TINY portions might be helpful, thanks for the idea. I'll try that.

DH tends to give her portions that HE would eat, which drives me nuts. Honestly, the food waste is mostly on DH. He'll pour her a bowl of cereal in a giant pasta bowl. And he'll fill it. So after she eats her 3 or 5 bites, the right goes right down the garbage disposal. It drives me so nuts, and I make some comments but I can't make too many or he'll get mad (he does not do criticism well at. all. this being his main or sole "issue"). But he doesn't remember next time, and will just FILL a bowl. ARGH!!! Bonking my head on a brick wall smiley please!!

Maybe the main problem is that DH is more in charge of feeding her than I am, since he's her primary caregiver. I cook. He just reaches for cereal. I put a list of ideas on the fridge with easy to assemble stuff (like PB&Js, stuff like that). Oh, and he is physically incapable of making her a half PB&J though we'd all fall over dead if she ever ate a whole one. So he'll make a whole one and she'll eat 3 bites and in the trash it goes.

I'm sorry I'm going on and on but I have no-one to talk to about this, and I can't talk to my husband about it.


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## mama2mygirl (Dec 14, 2005)

I think what I would do--and my girls are both small, dd2 is in the 5th percentile and dd1 was always in the 10th and just now is catching up to her peers--is make food that I like and let my dd decide what to eat out of that. I'd get rid of the cereal.
I don't think you did something "wrong" but I do think that it sounds like way too much of your life is centered on what your dd would like to eat.
If nothing else, you could try this for a month. She's not going to starve in a month.


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## Caneel (Jun 13, 2007)

No advice but I can totally relate to your DH frustration with the offering of less than desirable foods under fear of starvation and the giant portion thing.

DS doesn't have food issues (well, not yet) and both of those things happen in our house. My DH will totally freak out and offer DS anything if DS doesn't eat what DH thinks is a life-sustaining amount. (DH thinks a 5 yo can eat 2 cups of cooked pasta and a 6 inch piece of sausage for dinner)


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

I wouldn't worry so much about it.

I was an INCREDIBLY picky child. I did not gain one pound between age 2 and age 4. But it was nothing my parents had done and i eventually grew out of it.

Cook meals, for everyone, and let her join in or not. Cook something you think she'll eat at least once a day, otherwise just cook what YOU want to eat. Have her sit at the table with some food in front of her during mealtimes, but don't cajole or ask her to eat, just insist she stays for the meal. When everyone is finished eating (or not eating) let her get down. Make mealtimes about reconnecting as a family, rather than food.

You cannot MAKE her eat, or even make her want to eat and that isn't your job. It is your job to provide nutritious food, it is HER job/decision to eat it. Imagine you were trying to control her urine output - crazy, right? But her food intake is part of the same thing. My parents tried EVERYTHING to get me to eat. Nothing worked. What can i say? I was never that hungry, i didn't have "time" to stop playing and eat, food didn't taste all that good to me, and i wasn't too keen on the parental hype surrounding the whole issue. By the time i was a teen i was eating more normally, by the time i was 20 i was overweight! I LOVE food now, LOVE it, but i had to develop that relationship myself. They couldn't fall in love with food FOR me.

Your DH issue is something else - i wouldn't eat dinner either, if it meant i got special time out with daddy and cereal later on....


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## wednesday2004 (May 22, 2005)

Would it help if your DH heard from a different source; doctor, nutritionist, etc. on what an appropriate food portion for a child that age is. Maybe he thinks you picking on him when you're telling him this (I don't know him but I do know some people do think that when it's from their spouse). It may help eliminate food waste from one of your concerns.
If it's just him being forgetful maybe find something to print out that uses objects or numbers to show portion size; mashed potatoes = one golf ball size, peas = 15 peas. Maybe it's intimidating to your dd to have all that food piled in front of her and it overwhelms her sometimes. Tiny little offerings may look more doable to her. You can always have more of the same food on 'stand by' if she suddenly decides she likes it and wants more.


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## seashells (Jan 23, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2mygirl* 
I do think that it sounds like way too much of your life is centered on what your dd would like to eat.

I'm really amazed at the number of people on the Nutrition forum who think a diet of 85% Kellogg's cereal and 15% Elio's frozen pizza is an acceptable diet, and that my concern about it is the only problem.

Many reponses seem to assume, despite all that I've written to the contrary, that DD is generally eating from all food groups and that I'm just cranky because she didn't eat all her green beans. Or that I think she should clear her plate.

She eats nothing but cereal and the occasional bit of the poorest quality pizza you can buy.

I am really honestly stunned by this attitude. It's like telling a parent of a child with a major heart disease and experiencing problems with it that "way too much of your life is centered on your child's disease." Not only that, it's like THE SPECIAL NEEDS board telling a parent that. Since here I am supposedly writing on a forum filled with people interested in nutrition. Yet here you guys are, telling me that my child's diet is fiiiiiine and I need to take a chill pill, because we all know that Kellogg's Corn Flakes alone will feed a growing child optimally.

The irony strikes me that probably most of you guys are pro-breastfeeding because of all the benefits. But I guess the minute the kid is weaned, Kellogg's is all your child needs for a strong body and mind.


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## Mama2Xander (Jul 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seashells* 
I'm really amazed at the number of people on the Nutrition forum who think a diet of 85% Kellogg's cereal and 15% Elio's frozen pizza is an acceptable diet, and that my concern about it is the only problem.

Many reponses seem to assume, despite all that I've written to the contrary, that DD is generally eating from all food groups and that I'm just cranky because she didn't eat all her green beans. Or that I think she should clear her plate.

She eats nothing but cereal and the occasional bit of the poorest quality pizza you can buy.

I am really honestly stunned by this attitude. It's like telling a parent of a child with a major heart disease and experiencing problems with it that "way too much of your life is centered on your child's disease." Not only that, it's like THE SPECIAL NEEDS board telling a parent that. Since here I am supposedly writing on a forum filled with people interested in nutrition. Yet here you guys are, telling me that my child's diet is fiiiiiine and I need to take a chill pill, because we all know that Kellogg's Corn Flakes alone will feed a growing child optimally.

The irony strikes me that probably most of you guys are pro-breastfeeding because of all the benefits. But I guess the minute the kid is weaned, Kellogg's is all your child needs for a strong body and mind.

I get it, OP... I have a few thoughts/ideas for you but I will have to come back later to post (kids are freaking out).


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## Mosaic (Jun 20, 2005)

Nak...

My DD has nursing issues, so my new best friend is a pediatric dysphagia specialist. And through her, I've learned that picky eating is a much more complicated issue than I had previously thought.

This is from her website. Basically, if you feel you're doing everything "right" and still have problems, an expert can help you find therapies to help her accept new textures, etc. I'm not saying that your DD has a problem that's more than youthful stubbornness or a love of pizza; I'm not qualified to say either way. But I did want to throw it out there that pickiness really can lead to more serious problems down the road, and that there are experts out there that can help.


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## seagull (Jun 29, 2005)

I am with you that there is no difference between Raisin Bran and Coco Puffs, but there are better choices for packaged cereal. We only use plain cheerios. If your dd is eating bowls of the sugar stuff, no wonder she isn't in the mood for other food. It must be so frustrating to try to cook for your family. I guess if it was my child, I would find a doctor to run an allergy panel. What if your child has an allergy or intolerance to milk for example, that is mild enough to not show obvious symptoms but would make the child not feel like eating more food. Is your child really active? I know that my "picky eater" will eat anything in sight after swimming. So that is when I load up raw veggies in the cooler.
Good luck.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

I'd be totally concerned too and it would not be acceptable to me for my DD, 5, to eat that way. I think everyone is telling you to chill out because you seem like you're wigging out, and that you are blaming yourself way too much. Try to break it down, what is going on, and figure out how you can change it.

What time do you usually eat? What's your daily routine like? Are there any times of day that she actually seems hungry? Do you have any kind of schedule of when and where she eats? It sounds like she is making a lot of the choices and it's making you nuts. What's her activities like during the day--is she doing anything active to stimulate her appetite?

It's great that she likes fruit--what do you think she likes about fruits? The colors or the sweetness? Would she try something like sweet potatoes with a little maple syrup? Can you slice strawberries into salad and get her to try it that way?

Sounds like smaller portion sizes are a must. Personally--I might just stop buying cereal. But if you don't, what if you buy her own *small* cereal bowl. Make it special. Let DH know that is her bowl for cereal snacks.

All you can really do is keep offering the good stuff, and keep the bad stuff out of the house. Sounds like it will be a major battle with your DH, but it might be worth it. We make our own pizza once a week, and then I have leftovers on hand. Not as bad as the frozen stuff, at least I know what's in it and the quality of the ingredients.

My DD turned 5 in April and she weighs 36 lbs. She's slender but not skinny, and perfectly fine according to the dr. I find she likes plain foods--so, sliced chicken, single vegetables, not big on sauces or casseroles. She also changes her palate fairly regularly. A few months ago she was big on "yummy yummy tilapia" and then told us last night that she doesn't like it anymore. She has also informed me that she is no longer into string cheese or a "granola bar person" anymore. I find that usually happens once I buy in bulk from Costco.







So, now the puzzle is figuring out what she IS into now. I think she's a good eater, but in a way we're playing the same guessing game that you are.


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

I have seen this played out with a five year old we know, "picky" only cuts it so far in my book---I know the parents, they "_give-in_"- boxed mac & cheese, chocolate, cookies, pure junk, packaged processed all the better, etc all under "it's something"--not at my home!!

I don't let young children buy food, if it's not in the house, they don't drive them self to the store to get it.

I would not have items I don't consider "good" in the house- when the picky eater I know comes, we have what you get and that's all.

I have yet to see a child starve because of being picky.

I simply wouldn't offer any thing filled with empty calories.


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## SollysMom (Jan 5, 2008)

I don't think anyone's saying that it's a good diet and you should just accept it.

If you don't want her to have cereal, don't have it in the house. Only buy brands that are acceptable to you, and maybe once a week she and daddy can have a special cereal treat together. Or, set very firm guidlines about when and how much cereal she is allowed to have. My DS loves Newman-O cookies and he knows that he gets one or two after dinner (not every night) and he knows if he asks earlier what my answer will be. It's funny to hear a 2-year-old saying "After dinner, you can have a cookie". But he knows.

Is there any chance you can make your own (healthier) pizza? Do you think she'd eat it? Pizza in and of itself doesn't have to be bad.


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## ASusan (Jun 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seashells* 

I don't think there's much difference between raisin bran and cocoa puffs, no. Post Raisin bran is 30.4% sugar by dry weight. Cocoa Puffs is 33.3% sugar. (Source: http://www.karlloren.com/diet/p35.htm). And that's just the sugar part... the vitamins and minerals are denuded and not accessible to the body. It's better than full-on starving, I'll give you that. And I wouldn't even whine that much about it if it were just breakfast, but this is my child's DIET. Cardboard with 1/3 sugar by weight, basically. She's a growing child, she needs FOOD, with real vitamins and minerals and protein to help her grow and function. Sorry, after reading Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, I just can't be convinced that a diet of cereal is acceptable.

I just want to point out that the reason Raisin Bran is high in sugar is because of the raisins. Compare a box of Bran Flakes with Cocoa Puffs, and I think the Flakes (w/o raisins) will be a lot lower in sugar.

I agree with you on the vitamins not being (as) accessible to the body as non-processed food and that a diet of primarily cereal is unacceptable. However, if she is going to keep cereal in the diet (for now, because your DH thinks it is valuable or whatever), even in a small bowl at bedtime, how about Total Raisin Bran -- maybe SOME of those vitamins and minerals are accessible? And she is eating the cereal with milk, right?

can you add nuts to the cereal?


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## seashells (Jan 23, 2009)

Thank you... I admit I am very cranky today. Very, very cranky. Will review recent posts.


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## mama2mygirl (Dec 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seashells* 
I'm really amazed at the number of people on the Nutrition forum who think a diet of 85% Kellogg's cereal and 15% Elio's frozen pizza is an acceptable diet, and that my concern about it is the only problem.

Many reponses seem to assume, despite all that I've written to the contrary, that DD is generally eating from all food groups and that I'm just cranky because she didn't eat all her green beans. Or that I think she should clear her plate.

She eats nothing but cereal and the occasional bit of the poorest quality pizza you can buy.

I am really honestly stunned by this attitude. It's like telling a parent of a child with a major heart disease and experiencing problems with it that "way too much of your life is centered on your child's disease." Not only that, it's like THE SPECIAL NEEDS board telling a parent that. Since here I am supposedly writing on a forum filled with people interested in nutrition. Yet here you guys are, telling me that my child's diet is fiiiiiine and I need to take a chill pill, because we all know that Kellogg's Corn Flakes alone will feed a growing child optimally.

The irony strikes me that probably most of you guys are pro-breastfeeding because of all the benefits. But I guess the minute the kid is weaned, Kellogg's is all your child needs for a strong body and mind.

Oh, I'm not telling you that your child's diet is fiiiiiiiiine. I said I'd get rid of the cereal. *I* don't feed my child cereal because it's crap. *I* don't have it in the house. *I* don't offer them crappy frozen pizza. *I* don't start my day out by asking my child over and over again what she would eat. I put food in front of my girls --who, again, are also really, really small for their age--and if they don't eat it, they don't eat it.
If I played games and when those didn't work, they got to have a big bowl full of crappy cereal with Daddy, or a big old slice of crapizza, I guarantee that's what they would have. And it wouldn't be their problem. It would be mine.


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## seashells (Jan 23, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mosaic* 
Nak...

My DD has nursing issues, so my new best friend is a pediatric dysphagia specialist. And through her, I've learned that picky eating is a much more complicated issue than I had previously thought.

This is from her website. Basically, if you feel you're doing everything "right" and still have problems, an expert can help you find therapies to help her accept new textures, etc. I'm not saying that your DD has a problem that's more than youthful stubbornness or a love of pizza; I'm not qualified to say either way. But I did want to throw it out there that pickiness really can lead to more serious problems down the road, and that there are experts out there that can help.

Thanks for the link, and I read through all of it.

The things I've taken away from that link and previous suggestions are:

1) Tiny, tiny portion sizes. I do feel like this would help. I think one reason DH gives huge portions, besides just not thinking about it (I think he does it without thinking; to him a bowl of cereal is a huge thing so he pours the same bowl he'd do for himself) is just so he doesn't have to constantly retop the bowl. Well, I'm willing to retop it 100 times. She DOES eat better with tiny portions. Sometimes she'll ask for more before she's even begun but I know better: "sure, as soon as you eat that, I'll give you more. There's plenty."

2) She has responded well to some "fun" in foods, though even that's gone out the window lately. But she saw a recipe for "rainbow rice balls" once, and I steamed brown rice in beets and added tiny beet chunks for a pretty pink color, along with cheese and basil (she actually likes basil). And it's not enough to have it pretty colors, I have to shape it into a ball. Fine







I'll shape it into a dinosaur if it helps. Heck, maybe I CAN, I do have a huge collection of cookie cutters... HMM, I gotta think what I could cut out with those cookie cutters!!! Giraffe PB&Js? Lion-shaped homemade pizza? Maple-leaf shaped ... what, help me out here guys!!







I think this could actually help!!

3) I do have a few dishes that are interesting. I have a dish meant for devilled eggs, they have cute ducks and bunnies on them. And I can put tiny foods in the spots for each egg - a devilled egg in one, 3 olives in another, you get the idea. I did actually try this a month ago and she was excited but didn't eat much. But I can try again. I also have an Asian rectangle flat plate that she likes. Maybe I could even take her to the store and have her pick out a special plate or bowl of her very own. Our dish collection is 100% eclectic anyway, nothing matches. I'm willing to go so far as to associate a certain dish with a certain plate. So rice and beans ONLY go into this cool dish. Apple and peanut butter snacks ONLY go into this other cool dish. Hey, I think this is a cool idea, I might ask her to buy FIVE very different plates and bowls, and let her decide what goes in each of them. So if she wants the special BRIGHT RED SQUARE PLATE she knows that hamburger goes on it. Of course the drawback is that she might just request a food because she likes the dish but still refuse to eat the food. But worth a shot.

4) I think the cereal just has to go. She can have oatmeal for breakfast, or fruit and cheese. She can have dinner for breakfast for all I care but I think she is literally addicted to cereal, the quick rush of sugar to the bloodstream. Cereal is VERY easy to digest - it just doesn't last long or help a growing body. I'm fine with cereal in moderation, but moderation doesn't seem to be happening. She may be like me - I don't moderate very well. I have a sweet tooth, and the easiest way for me to fight it is to eschew it totally. Some people don't understand and think that I'm making sugar a bigger thing than it has to be, but it's the opposite. When I moderate, sugar is always there in my mind, lurking, a temptation. When I completely take it out of my diet, it's gone. No struggle. I move on with my life. Maybe she's like that too. She can still get treats every now and then, but I think she's literally dependent on cereal, and maybe it should just go.

5) I should follow a stricter schedule for meals and snacks. We all tend to eat just whenever. We are all home together (DH and I work from home and DD homeschools) so schedules just aren't a major factor for us. I do, however, appreciate the value of a schedule. We don't let DD go hungry, believe me, but maybe just saying, "OK, it's 12 o'clock and that means we eat lunch. And there's no more food until the 2:30pm snack" might make a shift in her thinking. Right now, it's like her whole life is a great big smorgasboard. Well, a smorgasboard with only cereal on it. Whenever she's hungry she gets the food, but it is better to have a predictable routine. Maybe letting her experience hunger might help too (I know that sounds bad, but I don't mean it like that - but she expects if she's hungry, that she will be fed within 3 minutes. As opposed to, it's 4:30 and getting close to dinner, and we start getting hungry and look forward to dinner and anticipate it).

I do expect and accept "phases" - if she goes through a few days when she hardly eats anything, DH worries a lot but I tell him it's ok. Then, sure enough, she'll go through a day or two where she eats quite a bit. I expect that. And I don't expect perfect nutrition every day. If she gets enough protein in a WEEK I'm good. I know I sound overanxious to most people, but honestly I'm laid-back about this stuff - to a point.


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## wednesday2004 (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2mygirl* 
Oh, I'm not telling you that your child's diet is fiiiiiiiiine. I said I'd get rid of the cereal. *I* don't feed my child cereal because it's crap. *I* don't have it in the house. *I* don't offer them crappy frozen pizza. *I* don't start my day out by asking my child over and over again what she would eat. I put food in front of my girls --who, again, are also really, really small for their age--and if they don't eat it, they don't eat it.
If I played games and when those didn't work, they got to have a big bowl full of crappy cereal with Daddy, or a big old slice of crapizza, I guarantee that's what they would have. And it wouldn't be their problem. It would be mine.


I was really judgemental (not to their face, but in my head) of people who had kids with food issues when my oldest was little. I thought there had to be something THEY were doing wrong to cause it. My oldest child ate almost anything, no problems at all.......Then my 2nd was born. I took the same food approach but this one eats very, very few foods. I know about nutrition, I know how to cook, I know about food! However , it made no difference. Sometimes a kids food issues are part of their make-up. That's how they are. Some outgrow it with patience, others don't. It's not always something the parents are doing wrong, but sometimes there are things a parent can do to help their child with this issue. Sometimes the kid will defy all attempts. I don't believe it's usually a willfulness or stubbornness issue, I believe a lot of times it's a sensory issue.
I'm touchy myself on this subject because of some opinionated people who assumed that my child is picky because of something I did. What they don't know is that my first child was usually in the 90th to 110th percentile in growth and height. Clearly he wasn't fussy.

Note to people on the other end of this spectrum...people with 'big' kids......my first is now all grown up and tall and thin.


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## seashells (Jan 23, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seagull* 
I am with you that there is no difference between Raisin Bran and Coco Puffs, but there are better choices for packaged cereal. We only use plain cheerios. If your dd is eating bowls of the sugar stuff, no wonder she isn't in the mood for other food. It must be so frustrating to try to cook for your family. I guess if it was my child, I would find a doctor to run an allergy panel. What if your child has an allergy or intolerance to milk for example, that is mild enough to not show obvious symptoms but would make the child not feel like eating more food. Is your child really active? I know that my "picky eater" will eat anything in sight after swimming. So that is when I load up raw veggies in the cooler.
Good luck.

I would love it if we only had plain Cheerios in our house. If I were a single mom, that would be it. But I'm half of a parenting team, and DH brings home the cereal he likes. (I am unable to drive so he does the grocery shopping - he knows my feelings on cereal and that's all I can really do).

She eats these cereals which I am ok with in moderation (though we've NOT acheived moderation with them):
- Special K
- Rice Krispies
- Cheerios
- Kashi
- Corn Flakes

And the stuff we consider treats but DH stll buys:
- Raisin Bran
- Honey Bunches of Oats
- Life

An allergy panel is a consideration. If I ask for an allergy panel, do I need to be able to say what I suspect, or do they just do a general panel? Because I have no idea what she could be allergic to, if anything.

And I'm not sure if I can say how active DD is. I don't know anything about kids, really, just DD. I'm certain she's not lethargic. She swims, plays. She can jog with me for about a half mile, sometimes up to a mile. She is not as active as other kids I see, she can't climb things (hypotonic) and is quite calm compared to hyperactive children. I think she's normally active, though possibly a little on the "less active" side but not "sedate."

I have, however, noticed that large amounts of activity don't seem to affect her in terms of appetite nor sleep. It's weird, we can spend all day outside running and swimming and her appetite is the same and she doesn't go to bed any earlier. The only time I ever saw that happen was when we went to Disney, and she conked out in the car on the way home.


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## Pookietooth (Jul 1, 2002)

My ds is also rather picky, as is a close friend of his. I've seen his friend's parents struggle with her over the foods she will eat, and get angry about her issues. I get angry with ds about it too sometimes (especially the throwing away good food), but really I think it's wise to avoid a power struggle around food, which is what it sounds like you've ended up with. I think it's the age and unfortunately as the mom of a seven year old, I have to say it does continue or in some cases get worse as they get older. One thing: it's better not to call sweet foods a treat, but instead call them what they are sweets; in our house treats mean toys or getting to do something you really love.
You don't mention meat. Are you vegetarians or does she refuse meat? Does she have food allergies or intolerances? Was she born premature? Many premies aren't aware of their own hunger. Does she eat when she's around other kids eating things she wouldn't normally eat? I know a lot of folks say just cut out all the junk and let them go hungry until they eat acceptable foods, but I know in our case if we do that, ds will have terrible temper tantrums and be impossible to deal with, because he will let himself get that hungry. If she has so many things she won't eat, she could benefit from treatment by a feeding specialist -- can you call your pediatrician or children's hospital for a referral?
I would guess gluten and dairy would be her most probable sensitivities, as they are common, and since they are some of the few foods she will eat (both because they are addictive if there is an intolerance and because eating a lot of something frequently can cause an issue). Also, gluten and casein both exacerbate sensory issues in those who are sensitive, which in turn makes them picker eaters (vicious cycle).
Will she drink green smoothies?


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## seashells (Jan 23, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
I'd be totally concerned too and it would not be acceptable to me for my DD, 5, to eat that way. I think everyone is telling you to chill out because you seem like you're wigging out, and that you are blaming yourself way too much. Try to break it down, what is going on, and figure out how you can change it.

I am known to wig and I acknowledge that. Unfortunately, I tend to wig more when people tell me I'm overreacting









Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
What time do you usually eat? What's your daily routine like? Are there any times of day that she actually seems hungry? Do you have any kind of schedule of when and where she eats? It sounds like she is making a lot of the choices and it's making you nuts. What's her activities like during the day--is she doing anything active to stimulate her appetite?

I've responded to each post in turn so in a previous reply I admitted that our eating routine could use improvement. We don't have artificial schedules due to our lifestyles, so we would have to make the effort to implement one. Which I'm willing to do.

She probably does something moderately active 6 out of 7 days a week - going to a playground, swimming at the lake or Y, jogging with us, or playing with the kids next door (they are an exercise routine of their own, believe me). She is not the most active kid in the world, but does get outside and do stuff.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
It's great that she likes fruit--what do you think she likes about fruits? The colors or the sweetness? Would she try something like sweet potatoes with a little maple syrup? Can you slice strawberries into salad and get her to try it that way?

Yeah, she likes fruit because it's sweet. She has my sweet tooth. Though some people have some (valid) concerns about the glycemic index of fruit, I do not restrict whole fruit at all. Juice is considered a treat, but whole fruit is a perfectly valid food to eat around here - it can be dinner for all I care. I also do make her smoothies. I dump coconut oil in them to get some fat into her, but my attempts at sneaking protein (namely peanut butter or tahini) have failed







I got caught. I've been known to sneak single leaves of baby spinach in, too, but I can't get away with it too much because it turns it quite green. Yes, I'm willing to serve sweet potatoes with maple or honey or applesauce with plenty of cinnamon. Good idea. The strawberries in a salad would not fly, though







We typically add a bit of fruit to our salads and she would never, ever, ever, ever eat a leaf of lettuce or spinach. Just the berries. And she'd probably reject them just for TOUCHING greens.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
Sounds like smaller portion sizes are a must. Personally--I might just stop buying cereal. But if you don't, what if you buy her own *small* cereal bowl. Make it special. Let DH know that is her bowl for cereal snacks.

Sounds brilliant, and she has 2 such bowls but if they are dirty DH will reach for whatever. LOL.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
All you can really do is keep offering the good stuff, and keep the bad stuff out of the house. Sounds like it will be a major battle with your DH, but it might be worth it. We make our own pizza once a week, and then I have leftovers on hand. Not as bad as the frozen stuff, at least I know what's in it and the quality of the ingredients.

I consider my homemade pizza a health food, lol.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
My DD turned 5 in April and she weighs 36 lbs. She's slender but not skinny, and perfectly fine according to the dr. I find she likes plain foods--so, sliced chicken, single vegetables, not big on sauces or casseroles. She also changes her palate fairly regularly. A few months ago she was big on "yummy yummy tilapia" and then told us last night that she doesn't like it anymore. She has also informed me that she is no longer into string cheese or a "granola bar person" anymore. I find that usually happens once I buy in bulk from Costco.







So, now the puzzle is figuring out what she IS into now. I think she's a good eater, but in a way we're playing the same guessing game that you are.

But when she rejects tilapia, does she replace it - sooner or later - with something else she likes? Mine is not and we're down to just about nothing at this point.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seashells* 

But when she rejects tilapia, does she replace it - sooner or later - with something else she likes? Mine is not and we're down to just about nothing at this point.

So far, yes. She used to really like mixed diced veg--I bought a 5lb bag of it at Costco and she decided no more! But then she got into carrots with ranch dressing. So, okay.

I mentioned schedule--I don't ever tell her she can't eat if she's hungry and it's off "the schedule" but what I do when she's hungry at 4 is feed her a mini-meal. If she's really hungry at 4, and dinner is coming soon, I make her a plate of a few pieces of sliced chicken, carrots or broccoli and dip, string cheese in the past or some crackers and cheese. That way, I know she's getting something "meal-like" when she is hungry. I cook a couple of chicken breasts every Monday and keep them in the fridge-I actually started that last year because I needed to lose weight and I visited a nutritionist. I keep them on hand for salads and to add to pasta meals where I don't want to fill up on carbs and my husband does.


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Hmm. DD's a surprisingly good eater now, at 2.5, but when she was 1-2 she vastly preferred breastmilk over solids. I found that she got bored with eating if I didn't sit with her. Even when she was physically capable of feeding herself, and presumably hungry, she didn't want to sit there alone and eat. The more involved I was - not cajoling, but sitting there talking to her, giving her a bite, giving her the spoon, letting her feed me - the more she'd eat. She's still a bit like that (although she makes an exception for things she REALY loves, like pastries and chips!).

Have you noticed she eats more if you're engaged with her during the meal? Or, heck, if you're _not_?

My only other idea is making some of her healthy foods less healthy (temporarily!) to wean her off cereal. I mean, if the alternative is her eating sugar-laden cereal, you may as well add a ridiculous quantity of maple syrup to yoghurt and offer her that. It'll be more nutritious (well, I believe processed cereal is actually _harmful_, not just worthless, so it's definitely an improvement on that!).Then maybe, after a while, you can start decreasing the maple syrup.

Honestly, though, it sounds like she could use a good workup for... something. Allergies? I don't know, but I think you may be at the point where medical intervention is required. Isn't there some vitamin or mineral deficiency that causes loss of appetite? I don't think you're making a mountain out of a molehill at all, and I can only imagine how frustrating it must be for you.


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## Mama2Xander (Jul 3, 2004)

OK, here's what I was thinking earlier - I think some of it has already been mentioned though (I just skimmed replies):

It does sound like more than just "picky" eating to me.

*does she have sensory issues related to food? This is not something I know much about (I have one kiddo with SPD but he's a seeker, not an avoider, so I haven't needed to research that particular topic much), but if you think this is a possibility, there are moms on the special needs forum who will be able to give some pointers.

*I would seriously look into allergies/intolerances. You could get her allergy tested, but the testing most doctors do will only look for true allergic reactions, not sensitivities or intolerances. The best way to find out is to try eliminating the foods that you suspect may be causing problems. Dairy and gluten are the 2 most common, soy and corn are common as well. It sounds like she is probably eating a lot of wheat and corn in the cereals, and I'm assuming she's having milk with the cereal too? Kids can become very addicted to the foods they are sensitive for, and crave them (and refuse to eat anything else). Honestly I would probably cut the cereal out completely. That tends to be easier for a lot of people than trying to moderate their intake of a food that is addictive/problematic.

*Could be nutritional deficiencies involved. I think it is a zinc deficiency that can cause suppressed appetite? Have you tried any supplements for her? I'd at least try to get a good quality multivitamin & mineral supplement - maybe a liquid one that you could hide in juice (does she drink juice?)

*Will she drink smoothies? You can hide lots of stuff in there









*I would really try to focus on nutrient-dense foods for when she will eat. eg. avocados, nuts, etc. It sounds like she is eating very little fat? Kids (and adults) really need healthy fats, but I'm sure you are aware of that.

*I say this gently, but... it sounds like your DH is in some kind of denial here? Or just really not on board with decent nutrition? (and I understand that you are not looking for perfection). What do you think would help get him on board? I just think you are going to have a tough time if he is constantly contradicting your efforts (plus if he does the grocery shopping, he needs to be buying appropriate foods).

*If you really don't want to cut out the cereal completely, and you can't get DH on board with this whole thing, maybe you could divide the box of cereal up into individual servings ahead of time? (just use little baggies or something - I know it's not environmentally friendly, but at least if they just have dry cereal in them you can keep reusing them for the same purpose). That way even if DD's little bowls are not available, the baggies would serve as a reminder of appropriate portions, and DH couldn't "forget" and pour a gigantic bowl.

*I don't think I would wait tooooooooooo long to see some improvement here. I know you said you don't like doctors generally (and I agree that they are not usually the best people to consult with about nutrition!!), but it is *possible* that your DD could have some kind of underlying medical issue that is affecting her appetite. Would you be willing to see a naturopath? Or even a holistic nutritionist could give you some pointers (I don't think they can order tests though, but I could be wrong about that). Maybe try posting in FYT for suggestions. Maybe someone will even know of a decent doctor.

Good luck, mama, it does sound tough. I think you are right to be concerned though. If *you* think it's a problem, trust that.

ETA: Oh, and I would definitely be concerned about her iron levels. It doesn't sound like she is getting much/any in her diet? (the cereal might be fortified, but if she is having it with milk, she won't be absorbing the iron well. Plus you need vitamin C to absorb iron).


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## Rosehip (Dec 30, 2007)

I haven't read most of the other answers, but I think you are headed in the right direction with limiting/eliminating choice and cutting out the struggles. I think the back & forth about "are you sure you want this" is probably feeding the fire. It sounds like it's creating a dynamic where she is getting a lot of power, and too much responsibility. I also wouldn't ask what she wants for dinner. I never ever do so with my children. I make one meal & that's it. They can eat or not, but they will not have anything else, including bedtime snack. Knowing that they would simply get a snack of their choosing an hour or two later eliminates any incentive to eat dinner. In my house, the "kitchen is closed" after dinner. A healthy child is not going to go into hypoglycemic shock because of lack of a bedtime snack.

I would definitely do away with cereal - it seems like a big problem, both nutritionally (empty calories!) and in terms of the whole struggle. I do Trader O's, but my kids can only have a small portion (one of the small Ikea kids' bowls about half full, with milk) if they're still hungry AFTER they've eaten something nutritious/protein rich for breakfast.

I would also suggest that mealtime is mealtime, and not a time when one get up & go play for a few minutes. This is a big thing for me - we sit down to eat, napkins in laps and use our manners. We don't answer the phone, play, get up and down, etc. If the kids leave the table (except to go to the bathroom or answer the doorbell, or some other such thing), dinner is over. We don't come & go.


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## mama2mygirl (Dec 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wednesday2004* 
I was really judgemental (not to their face, but in my head) of people who had kids with food issues when my oldest was little. I thought there had to be something THEY were doing wrong to cause it. My oldest child ate almost anything, no problems at all.......Then my 2nd was born. I took the same food approach but this one eats very, very few foods. I know about nutrition, I know how to cook, I know about food! However , it made no difference. Sometimes a kids food issues are part of their make-up. That's how they are. Some outgrow it with patience, others don't. It's not always something the parents are doing wrong, but sometimes there are things a parent can do to help their child with this issue. Sometimes the kid will defy all attempts. I don't believe it's usually a willfulness or stubbornness issue, I believe a lot of times it's a sensory issue.
I'm touchy myself on this subject because of some opinionated people who assumed that my child is picky because of something I did. What they don't know is that my first child was usually in the 90th to 110th percentile in growth and height. Clearly he wasn't fussy.

Note to people on the other end of this spectrum...people with 'big' kids......my first is now all grown up and tall and thin.

But your reaction is your fault. My second doesn't eat much. She's tiny. In the 3rd percentile for weight and the 5th for height. I could do what the op is doing and follow her around all day and ask what she might eat and then hop to it and cook it up right away and waste forty dollar of food a week. Or I can do what I do do. I serve healthy food. I'm amazed at parents who offer their kids junk food and then are astonished when that's what they choose to eat.


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## SollysMom (Jan 5, 2008)

OP, I think your ideas moving forward are great, the smaller portions, fun presentation, slightly more scheduled mealtimes.

A couple more ideas....

Maybe you could try bento boxes? Those would go along with the small portions and creative presentation, and you could prepare them in advance and keep them in the fridge. Also, for green smoothies, I find that when I incorporate blueberries the whole thing is purple and not brown/green. Experiment when she's not looking, but I find that if I do a few handfuls of greens, 1/2 cup milk, 1/2 cup yogurt, 1 banana, 1/2 cup frozen strawberries and 1/2 cup frozen blueberries, the overall effect is purple. The coconut oil is a great idea as an "extra" and I sometimes do flax seed meal too. You also can try freezing the smoothies into popsicle molds to make it fun and to make manageable portion sizes for her, so you don't have to make one big smoothie that she might not be able to finish. Also, if she likes ice cream (what kid doesn't?) you could try the frozen-banana-ice-cream-trick. Slice up a banana and pop it in the freezer for at least an hour, then puree until smooth and creamy and I swear it tastes like real ice cream. No added sugar or anything. You could even sprinkle on some cereal as a topping. I also tried it recently with frozen mango chunks and it came out more like sorbet than ice cream, but still delicious.

I hear you about your DH. Mine is similar. He likes to give DS treats, and I've learned I can't stop him completely but I can set limits. DH knows it's important to me and tries to meet me in the middle. Maybe with your DH, you can ask that he only buy the cereals that are OK with you in moderation? And only offer a certain portion size (1/2 cup maybe) and then if she's still hungry, she needs to eat something else.


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## seashells (Jan 23, 2009)

Thanks so much for the helpful comments (and I thank the unhelpful comments to take a leap). Some people are very smug when they have the opportunity to raise a child just like they like. Either they are single, their husbands are completely uninvolved, or totally onboard. And their mothers and MILs, same. Unfortunately I don't live in a bubble and I'm not the only one who affects how DD eats. Clearly I'm versed in nutrition and I'm not "astonished" that DD is eating the cereal that is offered. Making a special effort to blame me when I have ALREADY ACCEPTED RESPONSIBILITY (read my posts) is just unhelpful, so please get off my thread immediately and go "help" someone else if that makes you feel very big and wonderful.

OK, on to more useful things... I've talked to DH and he's at least onboard with a rule of cereal in the morning only. If she chooses a bowl of cereal for breakfast, fine. But she doesn't get cereal any other time of the day. So that means that at the end of the day, when she hasn't eaten anything, she doesn't get to fill up on cereal before going to bed.

He's also potentially open to just chucking the cereal altogether, but a little reluctant. We agreed that we'd try the cereal in the morning since we already have several boxes in the pantry. And he promised to not replace those boxes for the time being (normally he'd run out and get another box every couple of days). And we agreed if DD either 1) was eating more of other foods or 2) was NOT eating anything else (yes, total opposites) that we would not get any more cereal, period. In other words, if it's "working" enough that he feels comfortable that we can replace her calories with something else (i.e. she's eating other stuff) he's ok with not having it around. Conversely if things are so bad that she holds out for cereal and eats NOTHING ELSE I've convinced him this is a severe addiction and the cereal is just going to have to go. I hope to god this scenario doesn't happen, not only because it would be more serious, but I would be having to deal with an extremely anxious husband who, even if he's technically agreed, would not be comfortable getting rid of the only thing she eats.

DH is sort of interested in nutrition; in fact he's the one who got me started with it when we met. I did not eat vegetables at all, for example, but he liked vegetables a lot. His mom went through a health kick (like all our mothers in the 80s did, I think) and he took to it just fine. He eats more than I do, and the "extra" is not stuff I cook so it's frozen pizza or PB&J, but at the same time he eats all the from-scratch stuff from the CSA I make. But he is terrified of DD not eating enough.

The irony is, and I have to remind him of this, is that he himself was hospitalized for not eating enough as a kid. It was a terrifying experience for him. Almost traumatic, I'd say. They'd threaten him to get him to eat food. They never asked what food he liked. They told his mother what to feed him and the list had everything to do with calories and not nutrient density. He was a kid who liked carrots as a snack, and instead of finding that out and suggesting having him dip them in peanut butter, they said "no more carrots. Feed him chocolate ice cream." (He didn't even like chocolate then).

He was only a kid but I've asked him if he felt he was ill, and he did not. He felt the hospitalization was completely unnecessary and also counterproductive. He thought maybe a nutritionist might have been helpful for some gentle consults and ideas to increase the nutrient density of his favorite foods, and that would be it.

So maybe it's not ironic, but maybe this is the terror he's going through. He is desperate for DD to avoid what he went through, even if he's not being rational about it. I think he's thinking "if we don't get enough food into her somebody is going to take her away and put her in the hospital."

BTW, "thanks so much" again to the poster who felt so much enjoyment judging me and my family. Maybe the above makes it a little more clear that I'm not an idiot who is "astonished" that my kid eats junk food. I admitted it was my fault and wanted advice on how to get out of this awful cycle. I am not doing this alone, or I'm sure I'd make a lot more headway. But I'm dealing with a lot of complicated factors.

I too grew up with the FTT label hanging over my head (though never actually officially applied) and honestly, though my mother is a nurse and a cook, I ate cereal and macaroni and cheese myself throughout childhood. (I hated pizza). Now my mom rolls her eyes at what a "health nut" I am because I've learned to eat "food." These things are complicated and it must be nice to live in some other world where everything is so simple and straightforward.


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## shnitzel (Jan 6, 2010)

I think you should try to see a specialist.
I have a cousin who was like this growing up but her list of food was slightly longer and she was chubby which is probably genetic. It started very young and was quirky and cute at first and everyone said relax she will grow out of it. She had the same list when she started high school that she had at 4 years old. Her parents aren't "crunchy" at all but definitely worried because there was no way that was good nutrition and it really handicapped her b/c she couldn't do things like go to sleepover camp.
I think they eventually saw someone and she now does eat other foods, as a high school senior, and goes to camp etc but I think it was work and not a natural progression.
My little sister really tiny as a kid and still very pick, she won't eat salad and most veggies even though she is quite concious of nutrition.
So treating it like something that will go away on its own can really backfire.
Your DH doesn't sound like he is on board with the changes you want to make. You keep saying you want to get rid of the cereal and then state he buys it and won't stop. Do you have a way you can get him to change. My DH also buys cereal all the time (although right now it is for himself) and I certainly can't stop it. How about organic versions of the same cereals so at least they are less chemically you could even put the bags in the kellogs boxes so she won't know.
I really do think you need to see a professional who know more than us on how to work on expanding a food palate since your DD doesnt seem like typical pickiness but something quite a bit more difficult.


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## dogmom327 (Apr 19, 2007)

Sorry--I had to do a quick skim of the posts as the kiddos are calling but just wanted to throw this out there...have you had her tested for any food sensitivities, etc.? I only ask because DS was a super picky eater (and addicted to cereal) for a period of time. Even though it was the organic, whole grain cereal it still wasn't good for him. Turns out he is sensitive to both gluten and dairy. He's always been thin and had been super picky removing those two things from his diet helped tramendously.

Another anecdote...my 10 year old sister-in-law has been super thin (serious FTT issues), extremely picky, only wanted to eat cereal, etc. Turns out she has a sensitivity to corn. It took 4 years for her parents to figure it out as every specialist they saw just told them she'd grow out of it or tried to put her on meds (one of which made her suicidal!). But at their wits end with her, they put her on the GAPS (Gut and Psychology Syndrome) Diet and within 3 days they saw a huge shift in her and now a couple of months later she eats a very healthy diet, is happy, has gained 9 lbs. etc.

Just a thought anyway--hang in there!


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## mama2mygirl (Dec 14, 2005)

"I am really honestly stunned by this attitude. It's like telling a parent of a child with a major heart disease and experiencing problems with it that "way too much of your life is centered on your child's disease." Not only that, it's like THE SPECIAL NEEDS board telling a parent that. Since here I am supposedly writing on a forum filled with people interested in nutrition. Yet here you guys are, telling me that my child's diet is fiiiiiine and I need to take a chill pill, because we all know that Kellogg's Corn Flakes alone will feed a growing child optimally."

This is what my second post was responding to. I take offense to the fact that I read the OP, I responded kindly and suggested that the op get rid of boxed cereals and offer healthful options she herself would eat. That way food would not go to waste. I said that my girls are also really small so I know what that's like. I also thought, and think, that obsessing about a kid's diet is the most unhelpful way to deal with a "problem." It doesn't work and it just adds to your stress. Again, it took time and I worded it nicely.
The comment I got back was that I have no idea what nutrition is and what an idiot I am to think that cereal is fiiine. If op doesn't agree with me, and has no interest in my suggestions, that's fine but there is no reason to be insulting.
And, by the way after my dd1 was in NICU and having seizures and not getting oxygen and it was terrifying and it was unclear how disabling this would be to her life, the BEST advice I got was from the doctor who told me not to let our lives center around her sickness. Yes, it was part of our lives but dh and I made sure the sickness wasn't the center of our lives. DD was the center, not her issues. BEST ADVICE EVER.


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## ellemenope (Jul 11, 2009)

I was very picky as a child. I think it stemmed from a minor psych issue. OCD? maybe.

I would rather starve than eat somthing I had previously decided in my head I would not eat. Texture was a big deal. I would rather eat bland food than something I did not understand. I loved cereal.

I also never enjoyed eating food until I was much older. In my college years I began to enjoy some favorites. When I met my husband I learned a lot. I feel like a went through some kind of food puberty. I am now a foodie.

Also, when I was younger I never experienced hunger. I would just feel faint if I hadn't eaten in a while. I used to always get upset at how people were always wanting to eat and making me eat. I still get upset with this.

--
Anyway, no advice. Just commiseration. I am going through this with my DD. I am getting what I deserve. We try not to make it an issue. I focus on nutritian and calories seperately. I try to keep only healthy foods in the house. She is only 2, so I still have a lot of control.

Really, I should be asking you for advice. What would you different?

I like the idea about super small portians. (Although, sometimes I get frustrated because if she finishes something and asks for more, by the time I get it she has changed her mind. Then I wish I had just given more to begin with. Maybe she would have ate more.)


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

I haven't read all the replies, so forgive me if I'm repeating... but I think I'd do a couple things:

1) stop asking her what she wants. She obviously doesn't really know, so make what you want. She can eat it or not just like she's doing now, but at least this way you'll be eating what *YOU* want to.

2) Stop giving her other options than what you made. If she doesn't want to eat pasta for dinner, fine but thats dinner.

3) Stop giving snacks, especially bed-time snacks. DS1 got like this too - but after I refused to give him snack for a few days and he went to bed hungry he stopped 100% refusing dinner.

4) As you said, cutout cereal, period. Just refuse to buy it/let it be brought into your house for a while. If its not there, its not an option.

5) Get DH on board with all of the above. If he's not on-board its not going to work. As long as she knows if she goes whining to dad for cereal he'll give in, she's not going to eat anything else.

Good luck!!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ASusan* 
I just want to point out that the reason Raisin Bran is high in sugar is because of the raisins. Compare a box of Bran Flakes with Cocoa Puffs, and I think the Flakes (w/o raisins) will be a lot lower in sugar.

I agree with this to some extent. But, I was going to pick up some Raisin Bran recently, and noted that the raisins are coated, and the coating contains both HFCS and trans fats. I just wanted to scream. So...if my kids want Raisin Bran, I'll buy some bran cereal, and pour in raisins. It hasn't come up yet, though.


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## MissBeth705 (Nov 25, 2009)

OP-As a behavior therapist, you are not the first family I have seen with this issue. You are so awesome for being so proactive and willing to take advice so I'd thought I throw a couple of things out there for you...In your very first post you mentioned not "bribing" her. Let's look at bribing vs. motivating. Bribing means you give the person a reward BEFORE he performs the desired behavior and motivating means you give the person the reward AFTER they perform the desired behavior. I suggest you use pizza and cereal as the motivators for DD to try more foods. ITA with not getting massive amounts of cereal but if DH cannot control himself until this is resolved at least keep the cereal in a place where DD can't see it so you have control of her access to it.

Next, make a chart (this can be on scratch paper, magnadoodle, or dry erase board) with 4 sections on it and lable the last one CEREAL or PIZZA (basically whatever she requested as her "prize"). Next, only make for DD what you would make for the rest of the family and let's say dinner tonight is peas, chicken and rice. We're going to start off with VERY small amounts of unprefered foods becasue we want DD to be successful and feel like she can access her reward. So put on her plate 3 peas, 3 bites of chicken and about a tsp of rice. I know it sound ridiculous to eat that much but as she becomes more used to the system you can introduce more. Then as she eats each part of her meal you put a star/smiley/heart in each section then when all the sections are full she is allowed to have her reward. I suggest giving her 1/4 c of cereal or less as a reward (basically much less than she would typically eat if she had unrestricted access). The idea is you want her to want more of the reward so she is motivated to.

THis can take some time and if you are finding that you are at the table for a crazy amount of time at every meal, get a timer and set it for 30 mins. She needs to finish her food in that time or else she cannot have her reward. If she refuses, then in a calm voice say to her, ok well dinner is over and we'll try again at breakfast. She must remain at the table with you until you are somewhat done eating (sometimes until you are done can be a little long for a little one, but we want to make it not fun to not participate in meals).

Sometimes (I do this with my own DS) eating more than one bite at a time is too long to wait til they get the reward so we'll do a "bite for a bite" which goes like this...you want this XXX first you need to take a bite of YYY. And I show it to him and give him the preferred item the second he swallows the unpreferred one.

I think you can totally do this and I know how hard it is to reach out for help especially when people just don't get it. Please fell free to PM me if you have ANY questions and I'd be happy to troubleshoot with you. Good luck!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

OP: With respect to the asking for things, then not eating them, and the way she drops foods, I did want to offer a little btdt reassurance. DD1 wasn't as picky as what you're describing, but she was the pickiest of my four, by a large margin. She started out okay - not great, but okay - but by age four, the list of things she "didn't like" was large and growing. When I read what you said about hamburgers and how she barely ate any and will no doubt "not like hamburgers" the next time you serve them, I smiled...in sympathy. This was sooooo dd1. She almost drove me nuts with "I don't like this", over foods that she ate happily two weeks earlier. And, once a food was dropped, that was it. She didn't want to try anything new, and she'd ask for things and then change her mind and it was really, really frustrating.

And, now she's seven. And, sometime in the last six months or so, something has shifted. She's _happily_ eating spaghetti sauce, which she wouldn't even touch until a few months ago. She's added back in about 6 or 7 meals that she wouldn't eat for years. She finishes her lunch, if she's asked for whatever it is specifically, and eats a reasonable amount - and variety - of it if she didn't request it.

Basically, I'm just saying that it took her a long time, and she's still kind of picky, but she's _over_ the...whatever it was. Just over it. We didn't do anything different, or change anything, so I think it was either some kind of reaction to all the family upheavals (the major ones being two new living siblings, and a stillborn baby brother since she was two), or it was just a weird developmental phase.

I get the concerns about carb addiction, as I have issues that way myself, and I think ds2 does, as well (although he'll eat _anything_, he does prefer carbs). I certainly don't think it would hurt to get her checked out for sensitivities...although I _also_ get the lack of trust in doctors. But, barring any sensitivities, I did just want to offer some hope for light at the end of the tunnel.


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## daisymommy (Dec 13, 2003)

I haven't read all the replys yet, but I had to post.

I don't believe it is your fault. I have a child that is this way, and I am about to lose my mind--either that or pay huge amounts of money that I don't have to have for him to be seen by a food/eating therapist.

I have talked with a child counselor, a child nutritionist, read dozens upon dozens of books on the subject of feeding children, taken everything they say to heart and followed their advice. And you know what? it hasn't helped. One month I put my foot down, and he lost over 4 pounds.

So frankly, at this point, I don't believe it's us the parents. Our child has a problem. And I do not know what to do about it. Until we can come up with the money for routine O.T. sessions, I am feeding him whatever he will eat that is not total [email protected]

If he wants to eat peanut butter on bread and a yogurt for dinner? Fine. I just make sure that everything I buy is the healthiest I can buy (organic, no/low sugar, whole grain, etc.). Because I have wasted too much stress and time on the subject. I just can't deal with it anymore. And it sounds like you're in the same boat with me









I'm sorry I don't have more advice to offer. I just wanted you to know it's not your fault, and that you are not alone!


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## mykdsmomy (Oct 10, 2004)

OP~ I have a picky eater after 3 pretty agreeable eaters. It is a tough situation to deal with. My youngest gets stuck on certain foods and it is all he will eat. We still haven't worked out a good system for him so I can't offer much in the way of advice BUT....I will say you are off to a great start and you have gotten some good advice here.

A couple things: Have you considered a protein/supplemental shake (would she eat/drink it?) (a temporary solution)

Also, would she share off of your plate? I'm wondering if you could somehow work past her obstinence, and she starts associating positive experiences with food, then she would start eating better? (I know it's oversimplified and there are more factors than just that, but I thought I'd throw it out there).

So for instance, if the two of you sat down to watch her favorite show together, and you made a plate of snacks (YOUR choice)...you didn't say a word...you just put it on your lap and started eating....(throw a few 'mmmm"s in there...but nothing too obvious...kids are smart







). So basically building up your relationship with her.

Again, feel free to ignore me, if it doesn't sound like good advice, but I thought I'd throw it out there


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## daisymommy (Dec 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *serenbat* 
I have yet to see a child starve because of being picky.


Because of being picky? No. But because of having something truly wrong--either physically or mentally, yes.

Your DD sounds so much like my son, it is unreal. And yes, I feel just as mad, sad, wigged out by the whole thing as you do.

So far each expert I have told our story to has admitted that something is going on, but they don't know what. And that it was not a good idea to treat them as a regular child who will "eat what you serve him when he is good and hungry" because he would most likely end up in the hospital. That he was not the typical picky eater. But beyond that, they scratched their heads. Great eh?

I suspect for my son it began as oral sensory process disorder (he had reflux as a baby) and then even when the sensory stuff was over, he had learned to eat a certain way (or should we say NOT eat a certain way). But beyond that, what to do?

Edited to add:
I just now read that your child has hypotonia. That can MANY times also include oral motor sensory issues that affect feeding! I say this almost excited for you, that maybe this holds the key?!


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## mama1803 (Mar 4, 2008)

Have you considered a zinc deficiency? Poor appetite is one of the symptoms of a zinc deficiency. Low zinc can lead to a loss of taste and smell and that certainly impacts appetite. Also zinc is necessary for the formation of stomach acid which is needed for proper digestion. Is it possible that your dd is rejecting foods she previously enjoyed because now they don't taste or smell as good as what she remembers?

I have a heredity condition called pyrroluria that results in a deficiency of vitamin B6 and zinc. I've had symptoms all my life as has many of my family members. There have been periods of time when I have lost my sense of taste and smell for several weeks at a time (usually after a viral infection and before I supplemented zinc on a regular basis) and it most certainly does affect appetite. As much as I know I need to eat, without a proper sense of taste eating is a real chore because food doesn't taste like anything. Eventually the hunger pains just fade away.

As a kid I was an extremely picky eater, so much so that my pediatrician prescribed injections of a prescription medication that I didn't need solely on the fact that one of its known side effects was an increased appetite. There were few things that I loved to eat as a kid, everyone thought that it was behavioral. I was soooo skinny and sick all the time and my parents were beyond worried and frustrated. Looking back, I suspect that what was wrong was the zinc issue (and the constant cycle of allergy flare-ups, sinus infections, and antibiotics that depleted zinc even more). Now my problem is that I like eating a little too much and I could stand to lose some weight!









Now that I realize I am prone to zinc deficiency and have been supplementing I have been sick much less and the loss of my senses of taste and smell has been much less frequently.

Good luck!


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I would get rid of the cereal and pizza immediately. I would also take her to the Dr. See if she is lacking something nutritionally, if they have any suggestions etc. Talk to your Dr. or get a referral to a nutritionist about exactly what are the amounts of this and that she needs (you may be surprised how small it is) and see about setting up a regular series of appointments to make sure she is reaching goals and not failing to thrive (similar to what you would do for a baby) If she is choosing to starve over eating real foods you need to find out if there is a medical/sensory/allergy related /psychological/whatever reason why.

If you absolutely MUST keep the cereal, only give her a tiny portion. Seriously a full serving is 3/4 to 1 cup. That is usually 100 to 200 calories not counting milk. Plenty for a small childs meal. Since the cereal is only supposed to supplement I would keep servings to 1/4 to 1/2 cup. preportion it if you have to.

Definitely get on a schedule and pay attention to every bite she eats. You may be surprised how much she is actually eating.

Would she drink something like pediasure. Not perfect but would give her a nutritional and caloric boost.

Also make smaller portions of things that can be re-served. Why would your dh make her a whole pb and j sandwich. She is four. half is plenty. and if she doesn't finish it seal it up and put it in the fridge. Boiled eggs are great. I used to keep a bowl in the fridge. Why would an orange have to go in the garbage? seal it up and put it in the fridge.

I could live off cereal and pizza. really I could. I love it. But it is junk food. get rid of it. out of the house. my kid could hold out for days if she knew a desired food was in the house. And don't give up too soon. Get medical advice about how long you can fight the picky without giving in.

I don;t think you need to cut out the bed time snack but I do think it needs to be something healthy. Cheese, yogurt, sandwich, fruit. hey, something left over from earlier!

I also limit my kids bread intake. They can have a certain amount during the meal but the rest has to come from other food groups. they could live off bread. so could I. But when they have options of beans and fresh veggies and bread they will snub the good stuff and just eat bread. Not going to happen any more. They get one small serving of bread and then they eat the rest of their food.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mykdsmomy* 

So for instance, if the two of you sat down to watch her favorite show together, and you made a plate of snacks (YOUR choice)...you didn't say a word...you just put it on your lap and started eating....(throw a few 'mmmm"s in there...but nothing too obvious...kids are smart







). So basically building up your relationship with her.


I think this is a GREAT idea! Nothing tastes as good as the food on moms plate


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## MaryMarg (Feb 17, 2010)

It sounds like you've really thought through this and are working for change--good for you! As a professional who works with children with feeding disorders, I'd like to encourage you to consider an evaluation with a local occupational therapist or speech pathologist who specializes in feeding disorders. This person can help give some ideas for weekly implementation that may help you make changes little by little. Other posters have mentioned medical issues or psych disorders--start with a trained therapist who can help you wade through this, consider the hypotonia and if it relates, and who can go through your daughter's feeding history in detail to find clues that might be helpful for change right now. It's nice to have someone to collaborate with (in addition to all these caring mamas!) every week, too.

Some general ideas to consider (some already rec'd) include:
-Continue to include DD in choices for eating, but consider letting her sometimes choose (only) one item of the meal, e.g. what veg do you want, beans or corn? She doesn't have to get a choice every meal.
-Consider that what you serve is what you serve. [My 4yo DD loves the part in the _Pinkalicious_ book that says "You get what you get, and you don't get upset!"] Wrap up her uneaten portion and put it in the fridge. If she comes back shortly after a meal (where she hasn't eaten what you offered) requesting a snack, say "sure, you can have a snack" and reheat her meal portion. No haggling, no announcing "but you gotta eat this" etc. Just matter-of-fact. Re-heat and offer. Consider initially including some foods she will eat with meals (e.g. a small portion of pizza with the other foods you are eating that meal). Gradually decrease the familiar and increase new items.
-The small-portion recommendations are GREAT and structured mealtimes may also be to your advantage.
-Snack might be either a refused (previous) meal or a snack of your choice.
-Praise her positive actions of eating a new food/any other food than cereal or pizza, but praise on a level that makes _her_ see the benefits and removes you from the picture. Instead of "I'm so proud of you," words like "your belly is going to feel nice and full after eating that" or "your muscles can grow stronger b/c you ate that___". This rec may not apply to you at all as you may already do these things! Just an idea!
-Consider how much your daughter picks up on your stress and continues her behavior/choices based on your response. If you change nothing else in your current routine, consider simply dropping your reactions when you cook a food/meal and she refuses. Simply say ok with no change in facial expression, no frustration, no words (other than maybe "ok, but this is dinner!"). Continue talking to her about something else, talking to DH or dancing a jig (!) or _anything_ to let her know you are unaffected by this choice. Sometimes children continue these routines b/c of the response it elicits.

Hoping these ideas are encouraging and helpful and that there is an OT or SLP specialist in your area who could give you a direct hand! Best wishes to you!


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissBeth705* 

Next, make a chart (this can be on scratch paper, magnadoodle, or dry erase board) with 4 sections on it and lable the last one CEREAL or PIZZA (basically whatever she requested as her "prize"). Next, only make for DD what you would make for the rest of the family and let's say dinner tonight is peas, chicken and rice. We're going to start off with VERY small amounts of unprefered foods becasue we want DD to be successful and feel like she can access her reward. So put on her plate 3 peas, 3 bites of chicken and about a tsp of rice. I know it sound ridiculous to eat that much but as she becomes more used to the system you can introduce more. Then as she eats each part of her meal you put a star/smiley/heart in each section then when all the sections are full she is allowed to have her reward. I suggest giving her 1/4 c of cereal or less as a reward (basically much less than she would typically eat if she had unrestricted access). The idea is you want her to want more of the reward so she is motivated to.

THis can take some time and if you are finding that you are at the table for a crazy amount of time at every meal, get a timer and set it for 30 mins. She needs to finish her food in that time or else she cannot have her reward. If she refuses, then in a calm voice say to her, ok well dinner is over and we'll try again at breakfast. She must remain at the table with you until you are somewhat done eating (sometimes until you are done can be a little long for a little one, but we want to make it not fun to not participate in meals).

Sometimes (I do this with my own DS) eating more than one bite at a time is too long to wait til they get the reward so we'll do a "bite for a bite" which goes like this...you want this XXX first you need to take a bite of YYY. And I show it to him and give him the preferred item the second he swallows the unpreferred one.

I think you can totally do this and I know how hard it is to reach out for help especially when people just don't get it. Please fell free to PM me if you have ANY questions and I'd be happy to troubleshoot with you. Good luck!

Behaviour therapist, have you read "Punished By Rewards"? Or anything else about the pitfalls of extrinsic motivation? Bringing these types of reward systems to food sets kids up for lifelong food struggles. Even if you really think punishments and rewards should be used to change behaviour in other arenas, food is a special case and food should not be attached to punishment or reward.

OP, I <3 you for speaking your mind, and so tactfully.

One book I found really helpful for us was "Take the Fight Out of Food". It sounds like you are already following many tenets of the book, but there may be a few more tidbits for you.

The only other idea I have is something others have begun to touch on: perhaps your dd could be evaluated by someone who specializes in kids and eating or by an occupational therapist to ensure this is not a physiological problem. There is a kids and food program at our local children's hospital that addresses major food issues. Not sure if you're so lucky as to have access to a similar program.

Hugs to you, mama. I hear your very legitimate worry and frustration.


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## 2xand2y (Sep 13, 2009)

I have not read all the post. I did read most of page one. I am going to tell you what has worked for me.

1- I serve 3 meals a day. No choices (when things are going well, I occasionally solicit opinions). Each kid is served a reasonable portion. If, I'm having a current food battle I will place bites only on a separate plate. That way the child is less overwhelmed than when they are staring down a plate full of food.

2- My children know that to earn snack drawer privileges they must finish their meal. If they don't finish and tell me they are hungry before the next meal is served they can finish the previous meal.

3- The snack drawer is filled with things like: apple slices, celery, carrots, grapes, etc- If the child has finished the previous meal they may eat whatever they like from the drawer. I do remind them if it is getting close to the next meal time. Sometimes there is a special treat, meaning I take something like chips out of the cabinet and offer them during a snack period. Usually it is produce only.

4- Dealing with food aversions. Each child is allowed a list of foods they will not eat. The list is limited to a certain number, right now it is at 5 for us. It has been as many as 7 and as few as 3. Right now my oldest DD has: raw onions, mayo, bananas, olives, and an open spot. If a meal is served with one of those items I will either make hers without or I will offer her another option (grilled cheese, cereal, sandwich). At that point she can eat her "meal" or forfeit snack until the next meal. If the item is not on the list before I start cooking dinner then a substitute meal will NOT be offered. This works for us because there are certain things that most people just don't care for, but it needs to be kept reasonable, in my opinion.

I hope I have not offended. This is merely what works for my family. I hope you find a solution that works for yours soon.

Cross posted with the person above and wanted to note: we often use a timer at dinner too, especially if we need to go someplace. AND. . . also a family of 4 under 10!


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2xand2y* 

2- My children know that to earn snack drawer privileges they must finish their meal. If they don't finish and tell me they are hungry before the next meal is served they can finish the previous meal.


Excuse me while I interrupt the thread to ask: how do you keep your apple slices from browning? Lemon juice?


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## 2xand2y (Sep 13, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sanguine_speed* 
Excuse me while I interrupt the thread to ask: how do you keep your apple slices from browning? Lemon juice?

They eat them so fast they don't have a chance to get very brown. I do put them in a zip lock bag and submerge the bag in water up to its seal to get most of the air out. Mostly, they don't care and one actually thinks "the brownest ones are the sweetest ones"- go figure.


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## californiajenn (Mar 7, 2007)

I'll keep this short but agree you should look into GAPS and zinc deficiency. I've seen MANY children suddenly eat new things after 4 days on the intro. Seriously, I know these people in person. I've also read anecdotally too.

Very simply, the bad bugs in her body MAKE her want these things like cereal and other sugar junk. This diet was developed for notoriously picky autistic children. It's a lot of work at first but so worth it. My family has been on the diet for several months for allergies and I've made a lot of progress too.

At the very least, I'd take gluten out of her diet. It will only do bad things, especially to a carbaholic. Also, starting her out each day with a bowl of cereal will only lead to sugar/carb cravings the entire day. If you insist on keeping it in, make sure it's with full-fat milk at the end of the day.

This must be hard. Hugs.


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## happysmileylady (Feb 6, 2009)

I read most of the posts but skimmed a few so if I missed this, I apologize.

It seems that you are doing a lot of prep work to make what she wants/what you think she wants-she asks for an egg, you make an egg, she asks for oatmeal, you make oatmeal, you think she wants hamburgers, you make hamburgers.

Have you tried stopping all prep work, except meals, but allowing her access to whatever she wants any other time, provided she get it herself?

By this I mean-keep a snack drawer/shelf/cupboard/whatever you call it. Make sure it's something she can reach and let her have access to it whenever she wants. Keep it stocked with lots of choices that you approve of-cheese cubes, fruit, veggies, whatever. All stuff that requires NO prep from you. For stuff like oranges or carrots that require peeling...do it ahead of time. For bulk stuff that you want to limit portion size, portion it out ahead of time in baggies or clear ziploc containers. You can even put approved cereals in there, in pre-portioned approved amounts. When she wants something at a non-meal time, no problem, she can go get it. If she doesn't like those choice, oh well. At least that way, the waste isn't there...you haven't prepped anything that can't be saved. For meals, as others have suggested, make sure to give smaller/reasonable sized portions. If your DH is having issues, perhaps explaining that it's less wasteful to start with a small portion and add to it, than to have to throw away whatever isn't eaten. Also, make things you think she might eat, but I wouldn't go out of your way to do that. And, if she doesn't want it, ok, she can access the snack drawer, and her food can be put away to be reheated later if she decides she wants it later. And if she doesn't, well that could go for lunch the next day for you or DH at work or whatever.

I so totally feel you on DH and the cereal bit. I try to keep "good" cereals around for the most part-plain cheerios, plain rice krispies, corn flakes etc. But since I prefer to buy it when it's on sale and I have coupons for it that make it super cheap or even sometimes free...we often have several boxes around. And DH seems to think that means he should eat it all the time. He will eat his regular meal, then go grab a box of cereal and just snack on the dry cereal right out of the box. And of course share with dd2, who is starting to leave food on her plate just to sit in daddy's lap and eat cheerios out of the box:sigh: I am seriously considering hiding all the cereal.


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## catnip (Mar 25, 2002)

I've got VERY severe ADHD, bordering into Asperger's territory, sensory issues, and OCD. I lived for a couple of years on pretty much nothing but peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and white bread with crappy hydrogenated margarine, and literally went a week without eating when denied those foods. I managed most of my pregnancy with my daughter on nothing but PBJ, softboiled eggs and toast, cheese and bananas because the food aversions I had were so overwhelming, it's all I could make myself eat. Literally, even the thought of eating a vegetable made me nearly vomit. Actually attempting to eat one pushed me over the line. I have a cousin who is the same way, he lived a couple of months on wonder bread and mayonnaise. I have a friend whose son went 6 months eating almost literally nothing but white rice and Earth Balance. The human body can manage pretty well with sub-optimal nutrition as long as basic caloric needs are met. Yes, an optimal diet is the best thing. But humans survive with less than optimal nutrition. I forget to eat for days on end without my husband to remind me. I have a friend with similar issues that is the same way.

I don't think that you did something to cause this, I think that the chances are very good that there is a neurological or medical issue underlying this, and I think that you may want to consider a medical evaluation.


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## MissBeth705 (Nov 25, 2009)

Sanguine-I'm not sure what your experience is (if any) of working with parents in situations like the OP, but from your comments, I feel like it may be limitied. I did not at all suggest punishment in any way. I was suggesting to use what DD was already interested in as her "dessert" basically and set up a visual representation of how to achieve what she wants which is very effective when you are trying to encourage unpreferred behaviors. Most other mamas suggested the exact same thing just in less detailed way. Eat your dinner when you get dessert. How is what I suggested different, yet I'm the only one who you singled out?

Not all people are motivated by intrinsic forces. That's just how it is. I haven't read the book you suggested, but glanced at the summary and let me tell you the man who wrote it didn't do it out of the kindness of his heart for all of humanity. He got PAID for it because he wants to retire some day and buy things he wants, etc...

I agree that using food in the wrong way such as punishment is not acceptable and can cause future issues with a persons relationship with food, but that's a situation where you are saying if you don't preform XYZ behavior UNRELATED to a mealtime situation, you will be denied food needed for sustanance.

I hope if you have any other questions or comments you'll PM me and since you mentioned your LO has had some of the same issues as the OP's DD, I hope you are able to resolve those as well. Good Luck and all the best


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## SollysMom (Jan 5, 2008)

I too don't feel great about using food as a reward (like dessert). In the book I mentioned earlier in this thread (_My Child Won't EAT!_), the author says that the "Eat your dinner then you can have dessert" logic isn't great because if the child only has so much room in his/her stomach, then it makes no sense that they'd have room for dessert after eating the required amount of dinner. My own two cents to add to that, is that the child will most likely eat the "dessert" anyway once they've earned it, even if they're full, so it's teaching them to eat past the point of satiety. [The author's solution is to limit "treats" to special occasions and not even have them present as a regular option.] I understand the dilemma, though, of not wanting them to have dessert if they don't eat something healthy first. My friend handles it by saying "We need put good things in our body first". With my DS, I will allow him a cookie or two after dinner if he's eaten okay over the course of the day, but I do not make it dependent on eating his dinner.


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## sanguine_speed (May 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissBeth705* 
Sanguine-I'm not sure what your experience is (if any) of working with parents in situations like the OP, but from your comments, I feel like it may be limitied. I did not at all suggest punishment in any way. I was suggesting to use what DD was already interested in as her "dessert" basically and set up a visual representation of how to achieve what she wants which is very effective when you are trying to encourage unpreferred behaviors. Most other mamas suggested the exact same thing just in less detailed way. Eat your dinner when you get dessert. How is what I suggested different, yet I'm the only one who you singled out?

Not all people are motivated by intrinsic forces. That's just how it is. I haven't read the book you suggested, but glanced at the summary and let me tell you the man who wrote it didn't do it out of the kindness of his heart for all of humanity. He got PAID for it because he wants to retire some day and buy things he wants, etc...

I agree that using food in the wrong way such as punishment is not acceptable and can cause future issues with a persons relationship with food, but that's a situation where you are saying if you don't preform XYZ behavior UNRELATED to a mealtime situation, you will be denied food needed for sustanance.

I hope if you have any other questions or comments you'll PM me and since you mentioned your LO has had some of the same issues as the OP's DD, I hope you are able to resolve those as well. Good Luck and all the best









Food used as reward is just as effective at creating long-standing food issues as food used as punishment, especially in a situation such as this where there is huge potential for food battling. Harm is not restricted to situations where food is used as punishment when some other, unrelated, behaviour is performed or not performed. And yes, what you propose is essentially a punishment as well.
No, others did not spell out a system of rewards to convince the OP's child to eat. Making the food entirely unavailable is different from withholding it on promise: "if you eat this, you get that."
Some may have suggested offering the cereal only at certain times, but most did not suggest holding a box of cereal hostage to conditions of eating other food first. If generalizing my statement makes you feel less singled-out, then I'll clarify that I feel the strategy of using the cereal as a punishment or reward is ineffective and harmful--regardless of who said it first, second or last.

OP, it sounds like you've gotten a lot of advice. I hope something is helpful and that you figure out a solution. I can relate to the frustration


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## 95191 (Nov 8, 2007)

Quote:

I too don't feel great about using food as a reward (like dessert). In the book I mentioned earlier in this thread (My Child Won't EAT!), the author says that the "Eat your dinner then you can have dessert" logic isn't great because if the child only has so much room in his/her stomach, then it makes no sense that they'd have room for dessert after eating the required amount of dinner. My own two cents to add to that, is that the child will most likely eat the "dessert" anyway once they've earned it, even if they're full, so it's teaching them to eat past the point of satiety.

we have "dessert" after every evening meal--that does not mean a "sweet", it can be cheese, simple fruit, nuts, yogurt, etc

it simply is the ending meal, we don't make it a big deal from the time our children are little and than it is not thought of as a "sweet" ending but rather part of the dinner course --and in no way a treat or reward


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## LaughingHyena (May 4, 2004)

I have picky eaters here too, it's so frustrating to hear "I don't like xyz" from one or both of them at each meal time. I can also relate to the food waste.

For the wast issues I have to agree with PP that really small portions are the way to go. We have several tiny plastic tubs which I use to store things in the fridge for later snacks. So the meat from DDs plate that she did not eat will come out with her snack later.

Now DD is older we have done a lot of talking about how her body needs a variety of foods to grow and be strong. We've also been talking about favourite foods and how everyone has different favourites and I can't cook everyone's favourite every night. This seems to be sinking in.

I try to involve the kids in making the menu for the week before we go shopping but they do not get to choose which meals we have on any given night. That said I do find that for both of them there is some anxiety in not knowing what is coming, they do much better when I am organised and can let them know in the morning what the evening meal will be.

I'm not into the cutting sandwiches into fun shapes (still leaves me lots of waste). They do like tiny cubes of things to spear on cocktail sticks (cheese,, fruit, raisins etc). Also things seem to be more attractive if they are served on the play dishes. Apparently sandwichs taste better at the teddy bears picnic


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## lil_earthmomma (Dec 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seashells* 
Wow, I had actually wondered if there were any kids like that. It seems to me that picky eaters are a product of privilege. But maybe there are some real exceptions to that.

.

There are totally exceptions!!! I was raised in a poverty stricken home and refused to eat. The dr told my parents to just not feed me anything else and I'd come around, kids don't let themselves starve blah blah blah. I held out for 4 days and passed out in the bathroom. I was 5.









I'm better now! lol

OP, I would get rid of the cereal, and maybe adopt a snack drawer in the fridge. Cut up veg and fruit, cheese and meats, hard boiled eggs etc.

And she can help herself (with parent monitoring of course) these are all things you and your dh can eat too, so the food won't be wasted.


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## catnip (Mar 25, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LaughingHyena* 
I'm not into the cutting sandwiches into fun shapes (still leaves me lots of waste). They do like tiny cubes of things to spear on cocktail sticks (cheese,, fruit, raisins etc). Also things seem to be more attractive if they are served on the play dishes. Apparently sandwichs taste better at the teddy bears picnic

I avoid waste by cutting the bread with a cookie cutter picked to minimize waste before making the sandwich and then savingthe scraps for breadcrumbs or making a "puzzle sandwich."


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

OP, I only read the first page, but I can relate to a lot of what you are dealing with. My son is 5 1/2 and while he's higher on the growth charts, he has the same eating habits. I suspect he's only a good weight because his dad feeds him fast food quite often, which is not healthy either.







I've been brushed off by 2 docs now because he's a decent weight, which is really annoying because the kid doesn't eat! I've been told by friends and family that I need to chill out. It doesn't make me feel any better.

I was a bit of a picky eater when I was a kid. I've known many picky eaters. NONE of them could hold out that long before they ate something. Yet my son can go an entire day and just have a cup of applesauce. It's not normal.

He's always been a poor eater. He had reflux as a baby and gagged and choked on *everything*. And barfed a LOT. He lost a lot of weight as a toddler when my milk supply dropped from my second pregnancy. I finally got him to gain a lb before she was born and then after she was born he gained 3 lbs in the first month because when my milk came in he thought christmas came early.







But then he weaned and weight gain was quite slow after that.

He goes through spurts...sometimes he'll eat ok, other times I'd swear there's something seriously wrong with him (like when he'll refuse to eat for 18+ hours and then lay on the floor and cry...I suspect he's "crashing").

He DOES eat veggies quite well, which is awesome, but they are so low calorie that it doesn't do a whole lot for his energy and hunger. He doesn't dip or use any condiments. I do end up feeding him what he prefers a lot of the time, which thankfully IS decently healthy...peanut butter sandwiches. I buy whole wheat bread and low-sugar PB.

The thing is, my son ISN'T that picky. He likes tons of food. He just thinks it's a chore to eat. Bah! I'm seriously considering buying a kid formula type drink and using that as needed. Just need one that's dairy-free. *sigh*


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## PatienceAndLove (Jan 5, 2008)

OP-
My DD was having food issues, and I couldn't figure out why.
Like a PP mentioned, it was portion size. Additionally, it was other foods touching each other. We stopped at the Corelle outlet, and they had small divided plates! They are a life saver!
No portion is too big, and no touching foods! We added some wee cereal bowls, (we have a few of these on hand, as well) a few juice glasses (the small ones), and a few "dip-dip" cups, and she is happy as a clam!

Perhaps having small bowls and plates on hand (forcing DH to use smaller portions) would be helpful?

And following what a PP said about having foods for her (without prep) within reach- I saw this Nibble Tray, and thought of this thread!


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## tscmommy109 (May 10, 2009)

I would look into having her chewing skills evaluated. Eating takes and incredible amount of coordination and the hypotonia can play a factor into it. We have been fighting this for over a year with DD and she just physically can't chew protiens- everything that is offered either must be chopped to a hotdog texture or cooked in a slow cooker to give her a fighting chance. We just found out about a reflux and have seen a small improvment in appetite. DD is also a cereal addict, but mainly for the fact cereal is extremely easy to chew as is anything crunchy. One thing we do is keep a food journal and when it's the most frustrasting you can look back and see if she really ate more then what you think in a day. Hope you are finding some answers soon.


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## WC_hapamama (Sep 19, 2005)

We're currently in the midst of picky eating land with my 4 1/2 year old. My little guy lives on milk, cheese, yogurt, pretzels, crackers, rice, chicken nuggets, pasta, some soups, cereal, meatballs and green peas. Needless to say, he gets a daily multivitamin and I hide veggies where I can.

I've found that toddlers and preschoolers eat better when they're presented with smaller portions. I use smaller sized plates, bowls and cups when serving their food. My kids have their own cabinet in the kitchen with their smaller plates, cups and bowls.


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

DS1 can be way picky sometimes too... Which is a large part of why I keep Juice Plus Complete around to mix w/ milk - it adds like another 7 grams of protein along with lots of other good stuff. I *THINK* its dairy free (most of their stuff is all from fruits/veggies/etc), so maybe that'd be an option? I've only ever mixed it with raw milk myself, but I'm sure it'd be fine w/ soymilk or even water!!


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## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

I haven't read the entire thread yet, just the first two pages, but the way you describe your daughter sniffing her food before deciding to eat it or not -- and most of the time deciding not -- rings a bell with me. I can't quite put my finger on what exactly it's reminding me of, but it's not something I would just wait for her to grow out of. I would look for a pediatric specialist, maybe a neurodevelopmental pediatrician, and really keep at it until I found someone who could be of help. This sounds like you've tried everything under the sun, and you've kept a really healthy attitude toward how you present food, but she's just not going for it. Given that her food choices are getting more and more restricted, to the point where you can observe her behavior and predict when she's going to reject another food she used to eat, she might benefit from an evaluation for muscle tone and developmental issues, and possibly occupational therapy or feeding therapy. I don't say this to be alarmist. You're clearly thinking very hard about how to help her and paying a lot of attention to her trends, and that's exactly what she needs from you. It just seems like this is more than just being picky.


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## Sol_y_Paz (Feb 6, 2009)

I have been thinking about you guys lately.
As you are talking about your DD getting special time with her dad over cereal - I wanted to let you know I think even as an adult person I would forgo most foods for the opportunity to have one on one time with one of my favorite guys in the whole wide world







- even if that meant cereal.
Can they bond over another food perhaps?
I can understand 100% why you are concerned.
Sorry you guys are dealing with this but I think it is great all the different viewpoints and suggestions offered in this thread. How has it been lately?


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

I also just read the first page.

How is it going, OP? It sounds like my 2 yo. My other kids are a little picky, but eat a wide range. My fourth, though...I'm just happy if she eats. I am one of the few people you're going to find on here lately that are not in the "let them eat whatever they want" camp *because* of my youngest. Doing that with her has led her to have such a limited range and be so little that it's unhealthy. She's 23 lbs. and 2.5 years old. I have had to cut out sugar almost entirely except rare treats, limit cereals to healthy choices, and start actually manipulating her to eat at meals because she's so underweight. It's starting to work and she now likes and asks for things like yogurt (homemade greek yogurt-so much less expensive and no added sugar), homemade granola, nuts, rarely meat, and vegetables. By god, the kid never ate a vegetable besides a little carrot mixed in my chocolate fondue until she was 2 years old. If she eats a pea now, even if I have to tempt her and beg her, it is at least progress.

I guess I'm the only one on here also that doesn't let their kids have junk and sweets if they can't eat real food? We don't eat dessert unless we eat our fruits/veggies. That goes for us adults, too. I don't want my kids living off of junk, which they will and is one of the reasons we moved away from radical unschooling. I can't just not buy/make it as people dump it on us all the time. Growing up, I lived off of junk food. Completely. A snickers and coke would be dinner. I was sickly and malnourished and I resented it when I went to friends houses for dinner with real meals. I don't make my kids lick their plate clean or anything, but "I don't want to eat carrots, I am going to eat cake instead" does not fly around here. Especially when I know they like the things they are not eating to get dessert. Works for us.

I suppose our system is like 2xand2y's in a way, but we do not have a snack drawer. We just keep healthy snacks around and I hide or toss all the junk food people give us to ration out so my kids don't eat sugar all day. I do make vegetarian options for my oldest dd, and we try to make things and buy things the kids like, so it's certainly not cruel.


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## tinybutterfly (May 31, 2004)

Ds#2 was and is a very picky eater, though he is doing much better now than he used to.

I was a very picky eater and ate like a bird for years.

I think I was probably more understanding of his issues than some parents because I WAS that kid and am still like that as an adult.

He is still very, very thin.

I am not anymore.









But I used to be. I used to sometimes end up scary skinny from barely eating. I also had to deal with anemia off and on since I was a kid.

And yea, if something was served that I didn't like, I just didn't eat it. Ever.









Good luck!


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## blueridgewoman (Nov 19, 2001)

Just adding my two cents that this doesn't sound like a picky eater issue to me. This sounds like a possible special needs/sensory etc issue. I'd definitely have her evaled if it were me... Hope things are going better since you posted!


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## MamaChef (Aug 28, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blueridgewoman* 
Just adding my two cents that this doesn't sound like a picky eater issue to me. This sounds like a possible special needs/sensory etc issue. I'd definitely have her evaled if it were me... Hope things are going better since you posted!











I just wanted to give the OP a big hug for trying so hard!







I bet you an OT would be able to help way more then any other "specialist" or nutritionist.


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