# Natural consequences for screaming fit at bedtime???? 4 yr old dd



## Acugirl (Jan 1, 2003)

I have a 4 yr old dd (as of next week!)...recently she has been having a lot of trouble going to bed. We will have a fine day-no behaviour problems and then bed time comes-we get upstairs and the problems begin. Last night we got up, finally got her pjs on and brushed teeth and the fit began. Horrible tantrum that ended up lasting and hr and a half. She kept saying she couldn;t sleep and was sad. I tried comforting her gently, trying to talk about it, just letting her cry etc. After this had gone on for a while, I got really frustrated. I absolutely could not get this tantrum to stop and found myself saying " if you dont stop we won't do such and such tomorrow" (this did not help either, and now I have basically ruined the day for myself!)

So, anyway, I need some help. This is a recurring problem. We tried making a list of things that might help the other night-wrote down all of the things she was scared of-fixed all of the problems etc. that night was a bit better. but then it started up again the next night. Nothing has changed in her bed time routine or anything. I am at a loss. She gets attentuion all day, has a calm, good life with nurturning parents, etc.

can anyone help??!


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## mom22girls (May 5, 2005)

I don't know if there can be natural consequences to irrational behavior like a tantrum.

I just went through the same thing with my 2.5 year old. It lasted two weeks.







: In the end, I just left her to work it out for herself. It ended about 5 minutes after I left the room. I found being there just gave her an audience. I don't mean to sound cruel, I'm not a cry-it-out person or anything, but I wanted to see what happened when I left. She didn't try and get out of bed and follow me, so I figured that she was okay. She did call for me, and I told her I'd check on her after a few minutes. When I did, she had calmed down and was on her way to sleep.

You might stay with her and just not talk (rub her back or cradle her). Perhaps a longer wind-down (a few more stories, longer bath?) I tried these with no success (my girl is a very spirited/determined) but thought I'd pass them along for what they're worth. Like most things with children, it may be a phase. I'm guessing with my girl, it may have started with her falling asleep quickly, having a scary dream and then she fought sleep for a couple of weeks. Who knows??

Like you, I have found that when I say, "we can't do such-and-such" the whole family suffers in the end (as my mom always said, be careful what you threaten). I don't think your daughter can control herself, and perhaps she's overtired.

This too will probably pass, and since you've gone through your trouble shooting checklist (great idea!) maybe be more emphatic, "Tonight, we'll take a bubble bath, read a couple of stories and have a really big hug so you will have good dreams.."

Hope some of these suggestions help. If not, know that you've got my sympathy since I've just gone through it myself!!!

-H


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## Acugirl (Jan 1, 2003)

In thinking more about this, I feel I need to post some more info to get the help I need.

My dd has always been "high needs", I have put her to bed every single day of her life. I had a baby in June whom she has adjusted really well to, but since then we have been trying to incorporate dh more into the bedtime routine, and I am always holding/nursing ds at that time aswell because that is when he wants to go to bed. dd seems really happy about daddy reading her books and such most nights and if he doesn't do it she will ask for him to come up, but some nights she just wants me. I totally understand that but the problem is that the baby screams bloody murder when dh holds him. He just wants me too. And, he is not the kind of baby who can be nursed to sleep and put down-he wakes right back up. So I feel so torn at bedtime. I want to meet everyones needs and I cant. So, when dd starts screaming and refusing to go to bed I have just had it.
I know someone will suggest just letting her stay up, but that is not really an option to me. I need a break, and she needs her sleep. If she stays up she does not sleep later or nap the next day and it just gets worse. She has no interest in sleeping in my bed/room anymore either so that is not an option that will help.
I guess I am just frustrated that my expectations of a quiet relaxing bedtime are not being met and perhaps that is the problem right there-I should just drop these expectations!


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

How about earlier? Could she go to bed earlier than the baby instead of later?


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## Acugirl (Jan 1, 2003)

She does go to bed earlier than the baby..that is the problem-I still have the baby when she goes to bed.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Sorry, what I meant was-- you said you always have the baby at her bedtime because that's when the baby wants to go to bed. So if it would work with your family's schedule to have her go to bed EVEN earlier, before the baby wants to go to bed, maybe that would help. If it wouldn't, never mind!


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Both kids need to learn to be put to bed by Daddy somtimes. This is too much for you all on your own. Its not leaving either of them to CIO if they are sad and crying with Daddy. This is something for them to work out with him. He needs to have relationships with them, and they need to learn to accept his caregiving at bedtime.

Its hard to listen to them crying for you, and not respond though. I really really really know that.

What we did (our kids are just about the same distance apart) was switch off, taking turns putting them to bed. Every other night I would lay down with the 4 yo. and every other night I would hold the baby. If the baby was freaking out with DH, then he would bundle him up and take him out for a walk. With the 4 yo. -- we talked a lot about the plan and the expectations throughout the day, and we used a calender in his room to keep track of who's turn it was.

Its also not CIO to walk away from a tantruming 4 yo. if she cannot be comforted. Its really a whole different thing. A baby has no sense of object permanance -- does not understand that his parents still exist when they are not in the room. A four year old certainly does. A baby cannot verbalize his feelings and fears, or wants and needs. Crying is his only way of communicating. A four year old has plenty of communication tools at her disposal.

I am sorry its so hard though. Bedtime and sleep issues have always been my biggest challenge. Its just so hard to encounter the biggest parenting issues at the end of the day when you are tired and done in! I promise that it will get better though.


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## Acugirl (Jan 1, 2003)

Well, Mamaduck..I wish this could happen, I really do. For whatever reason, my kids really really want me at bed time. and they are not quiet about it or quick about it. They will carry on forever. I know it is not cio and that they should be able to be comforted by dh, but that is just not the reality. My 5 month old escalates so quickly that he is coughing and gagging within minutes. he does not stop. same with dd. I just can't live like that. I feel like bedtime should be peaceful and relaxing. THe only thing that worked once was letting dh hold ds while he watched baby einstein. That worked long enough for me to get dd to bed.

I think I will try an earlier bedtime for dd and if that doesnt work, just let ds watch a video or something. Even dh bringing ds outside doesn't work. nor does the car-he hates that too!


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## Acugirl (Jan 1, 2003)

Well, Mamaduck..I wish this could happen, I really do. For whatever reason, my kids really really want me at bed time. and they are not quiet about it or quick about it. They will carry on forever. I know it is not cio and that they should be able to be comforted by dh, but that is just not the reality. My 5 month old escalates so quickly that he is coughing and gagging within minutes. he does not stop. same with dd. I just can't live like that. I feel like bedtime should be peaceful and relaxing. THe only thing that worked once was letting dh hold ds while he watched baby einstein. That worked long enough for me to get dd to bed.

I think I will try an earlier bedtime for dd and if that doesnt work, just let ds watch a video or something. Even dh bringing ds outside doesn't work. nor does the car-he hates that too!


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## Mommy2Austin (Oct 10, 2006)

Have you tried putting away a "special time" just for DD and yourself. She might be feeling a little upset about the baby getting all the attention even if she has adjusted to him. I know at 5 mo he's probably getting more active and needs more attention. Maybe a little mommy/daughter time will help alleviate that. Then bedtimes can be special time with daddy. That way you can handle bedtime with baby and he can handle DD. It may not work all the time, but it's worth a shot!


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## mom22girls (May 5, 2005)

Oh Acugirl, I've felt your pain. To dd2, DH is no different than an axemurder!! I couldn't believe how difficult having two was when dd2 was born... Things will get better - which of course you know, but doesn't make tonight's bedtime any easier. We tried that "taking turns" route, and while it worked a little, it didn't work well. There are two adults in this house, Mama and Not The Mama. Can dh give 5mo a bath while you're with dd1? Is there anything else that will distract 5mo for 10 minutes? Can you see if you can "trade" times with dd - maybe say to dd "we're going to have our bedtime story and snuggle early in the day (when ds is napping), and then tonight you're going to hop right into bed - this way, it will be Our Secret Time."

It's hard to get tough with a tired and cranky four year old. I know, I've got one, but she's not the spirited one in the family (that's the 2.5 yo).

While I'm pretty relaxed about most things in my kids' lives, I'm adamant about bed time. I used to read dd1 a story and tuck her in with DH - then rock dd2 into oblivion (took about an hour). Whatever it takes to get them to go to sleep so I could have a couple of hours to myself.

-H


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 

Its also not CIO to walk away from a tantruming 4 yo. if she cannot be comforted. Its really a whole different thing.

I'll just disagree.

Pat


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## slightly crunchy (Jul 7, 2003)

Could she be overtired? My 4.5 yo son has a much harder time going to sleep when we start bedtime quiet-down time later. Sometimes when it has been an especially active day for him, he is tired much earlier.

Is the problem that she wants YOU there at bedtime, or just that she doesn't want to go to sleep because you are still up with the baby? I can see how that would be hard for a little one. I think that is what we are dealing with at my house right now--my toddler has been shifting naps and had a later bedtime, and my 4.5 yo has been having trouble at bedtime as well.

Could you brainstorm with her as to what would help her? Some special time with just you, before bedtime begins?

Is it possible that the tantrum is not *about* bedtime? You memtioned having a great day with no troubles, and then trouble at bedtime. Could it be she has hurts or emotional distress from the day that she is trying to release at bedtime, and just needs extra hugs and closeness then to let it out?

I am with you that it would not be acceptable to me to leave an infant with Daddy at bedtime, if baby was crying and clearly wanted mommy. I just can't/couldn't do that. I don't do that and I have a 19 month old. He needs to nurse at bedtime. I can't just leave him.

My son was 3.5 when my baby was that age, and once or twice a week for a few months, I was the only parent there to put them both to bed. It wasn't always great, but here are some different ways we did it: have stories all together in my bed. then nurse the baby in a rocking chair in the dark, or in the sling while pacing the room, or in my lap in a sling while bouncing on an exercise ball next to the bed while I rubbed ds's back and sang to them.

We are having the same sort of difficulty now, except that DH is around every evening now, and baby is 19 months. Ds has been happy to have mostly DH lie with him at bedtime for a long time, but lately, ds1 really wants mommy. He does get alone time with me during the day, but I guess he needs extra right now.







We are tying to figure it out, but it is a little easier because my baby is older and will accept DH at night for short periods; though when he needs me, I do go. It is going better with ds1, but still hard and we are trying to figure out something...the other night, when I got up to help ds2, ds1 asked me if I would take him to my bed after ds2 went to sleep. So we carried him in, asleep. We have done that for a few nights. We are also thinking about moving ds1's twin bed back to our room for a short time, or more likely, replacing his full mattress with a twin, so that maybe I can cuddle with both boys at bedtime and ds2 can wander in and out of the dark room if he is not quite ready for bed.

Anyhow, my point is that there may be a solution, but maybe the idea will come with time. Also, baby's sleep patterns can some times change quickly, too. Maybe your bedtime routine could evolve to you and DH and the kids all together, then moving the kids to their respective beds once they are super tired or even asleep. Just a few thoughts.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Please read "Sleepless in America" Kurcinka. It's one of those books that doesn't sound like much, but it is earth shattering in it's effectiveness.

It starts in the morning!!


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## Acugirl (Jan 1, 2003)

Thanks all.. Tonight was great. perfect really.
I asked dd today what I should do to help her when she is screaming like last night. She said "well, if I had a little girl I would hug and kiss her more" Oh-so simple! so we talked about how at bedtime I would leave the baby downstairs with daddy and just take her up myself and give her lots of hugs. She agreed to that all day. I told her to come up for bed about 20 min earlier than I have been and at first got the same reaction-total defiance, running away etc. She started saying she was scared. So I took out our list that we had made a few days ago of all the things she was scared of and how we had fixed them, (thank you "How to Talk so your Kids Will Listenn....) this calmed her down. Than I gave her 2 of her "night time tablets" the Hylands Calm Fortes-these are wonderful by the way.
We rocked in the chair, read books and gave extra hugs. When it was time for me to leave, she was fine-said good night and I haven't heard a peep since.
As for the baby-he cried on and off with dh-but was fine. So, maybe it was a combination of things. Thanks for helping me work through this!


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

I'd add to the vote for an earlier bedtime for dd.

Is there any way you can put the kids to bed together in the same room? If they're ready about the same time, then that might help.

What we've done in our house, since I am the preferred bedtime person too but I too need a break, is to alternate nights. So, dh puts the kids to bed for 2 nights, then I do 2 nights, then he gets 2 nights etc. That clearly won't work for your son, but it might work for your dd.

For a 4 year old, I would say that it is OK to leave her with Daddy, even if she's having a fit. If you need a break, you need to care for yourself too. You have an infant and a 4 year old. Daddy has to be allowed to do some things, especially if you're low on resources (which we tend to be at night). (Currently my 2 and 5 year old are watching Curious George for the 2nd time today because dd is sick and was up half the night - and when she's sick, she likes to sleep on my head! Is it ideal? No. Is it saving my sanity? Yes.)

I guess I'd try:
-Moving her bedtime back about 30 minutes
-Making sure that you alllow enough time for the bedtime routine. Ours takes 45 min to an hour. When I'm trying to rush my kids through, everyone gets cranky and that's when we're likely to have fits. When I leave enough time, then I can give ds 2 minutes to finish whatever story he's playing out or follow dd around and put things in her hands to pick up.
-Getting her a flashlight and letting her read in bed if she's not tired (you can get a wind-up one that doesn't even use batteries - I think it's the greatest invention since sliced bread!) That way you can tell her that she doesn't have to sleep, she just needs to stay in bed

Personally, I'd also try having Daddy put her to bed a few nights a week (I'd make it predictable so she'll know what to expect). I understand you may not be up for that. If not, then I'd have Daddy do the whole pre-bed routine and have you put her to bed. Taht will give you a bit of a break too.

If you turn out to have a fit, sometimes all you can do is sit by and provide empathy. Remember you don't have to fix it, just let her know it's OK to have powerful emotions. But, if she's having a fit and you need a break, then send Daddy in. That's not CIO. That's teaching her that you too have limits and sometimes you need a break.


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## katallen (Jan 4, 2005)

I don't know that you can really give an effective consequence for a tantrum. Once a tantrum hits a certain point it can't be stopped. With dd I don't pay attention to tantrums or talk during them and they end very quickly because she doesn't like my attention off of her (I absolutely can't hold myself together when she has a tantrum so for us this is the only solution that calms the tantrum and keeps my temper under control).

If you don't have a bedtime routine already then consider working one out, also if she naps during the day she may really not be tired yet a later bedtime may help especially if her body is ready to drop the nap but you aren't. We do our bath, then books, then snack, then potty one last time, then a last book and lights out for our routine. I co-sleep also, but if you don't maybe a back rub would work to calm her. Talk it over with her to see what routine she likes and then go with it.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I also don't think that this is a case for a consequence.

What if it wasn't "bed time"? What if it was just quiet time? Play, look at books, listen to music in your room with just a low light on. Might she fall asleep that way? (some kids would, some wouldn't...)

-Angela


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

I see you guys had a good bedtime last night, congrats!!

I have a 4 year old, and while I'm pretty lax on most things, bedtime is non-negotiable. He needs the sleep (he wakes up at the same time no matter when he goes to bed), and I need the quiet time to myself.

I've always had a great routine and my son has always gone to sleep pretty easily, and stayed put. In the last few months, he's started getting back up multiple times, saying he's scared, needs his "dreamlight" turned on, etc. He'll even come up and make up owies and say he needs a band-aid.









I make sure I give him plenty of wind down time, lots of snuggles and that all of his fears are taken care of. Then I tell him that it's bedtime, and he may play quietly in his room, read books in his bed, but he has to stay in his room. He's been more than happy to do that, and usually after a few mins of reading a book in bed, he rolls over and goes to sleep.

Sometimes he gets back up, but not nearly as often. So maybe you could give your daughter some books to read, or allow her to have quiet play, as long as she stays in her room? It's worked well for us.


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