# Eclectic parenting causing oppositional behavior?



## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

I am wondering what thoughts people have on "eclectic" parenting. I don't know if that is actually a term, but I am using it to describe parenting that resembles CL in some ways, but then parents step in and "pull rank" sometimes. This is pretty much how I parent. Dd is having some behavioral issues, and while there are lots of factors that could explain her current issues I am wondering how my parenting style might be contributing.

I know that things run smoothest when I work with dd, and not against her. Dd is very intense, and incredibly strong willed. So I learned early (with much time spent here on the GD board, and many books read) how to work with her rather than against her.

We typically have few problems. I can simply phrase things positively, give information rather than demands, and expect the best from her....and things are great. We honestly get along really well. Now, her relationship with her father is not nearly so harmonious.....they butt heads a lot even normally. But dd and I are usually a really great team.

But when dh and I make a decision (big or small), and dd does not like the decision, she becomes extremely oppositional. And I am wondering if part of the reason she reacts so strongly is that she expects to always have a say (because of our parenting) and is just really offended when she doesn't.

One big example and one small:

The big one is that we moved. Now, I realize that moving is huge, and many children would have difficulty adjusting. But we are ready to seek psychological care because her adjustment has been so extremely bad. She is raging, and when she does communicate why, it is because she is angry we moved. SHe is specifically angry at me and her father for making that decision.

A small example: I recently went to a consignment sale to get winter clothing for dd. I didn't take her along. My mother asked why I didn't take her (she was curious), and the reason is that if I took her, she was almost certain to want something I wasnt' willing to buy, and after I said "no" she would become completely oppositional. She would "hate" everything I picked up. It would be a mess. So I can not take her shopping unless I am prepared to let her choose all of the items within a budget. (and in this case I was not, because money is tight and she *needed* some specific things...she did not need what she was sure to want, which is more dresses). By going alone, I got to come home with a big bag of goodies for her and she was thrilled. If I had taken her with me and bought the same items, she would have insisted she "hates" them.

I am wondering if other people parent similarly (work with dc as much as practical, but then sometimes make a decision without their consent---explaining with empathy, of course), and if other children become similarly oppositional.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

I am going to reply to just a couple bits of the post. The shopping thing. I think it's ok to go buy your kids clothes without their consent. I generally call that a gift, a surprise. I don't think consentual living means you can't do things without your child ever. It's making sure that when things involve your child, if they are there, they have a say, equal to yours. The consentual part was that she consented to be somewhere else while you shopped









I am not a 100% cl parent though I do somewhat subscribe to the premise, I find it hard to make it work in a family of 4 children of such varying ages. So I do make more arbitrary rules than I would like.

I would also like to address the "contrariness" of how she would have hated the clothes if you had gotten them instead of what she wanted had she gone shopping with you. This is so normal however the degree of her reactions seems a little over the top.

As to the move...this sounds very much like what happened when we moved away from the city. My oldest has never forgiven us. It's been 5 years, she's almost 17. She didn't make new friends in the new town because she kept trying to go back to the old town to visit friends etc. She would brag up where she came from and put down where she was to the degree that it greatly affected her life.

BUT we could not afford a house in the city and we could not all live in teh apartment we were in.

How old is your daughter? My daughter was about 11 when we moved. She has finally, just now, moved on from that.

moving is really tough on them. My 4 year old, who is hyper sensitive though, seems to have handled this recent move pretty well. But still grieves her old bedroom.

I don't know how helpful that was but I sure do commiserate









and I don't know if cl makes her feel "entitled" to have a role in the decision or not, in fact I would suspect the opposite to be true, because she gets to have a say so much I would think she would understand that this BIG decision must have been truly necessary or she would have had a say. Just guessing. Oh..and in my world, "entitlement" is not a bad word.

eta..she is six right? Did the move involve changing schools? or do you homeschool? I think the degree of the anxiety my oldest felt about moving was my first clue of her extreme peer orientation and if I had been more plugged into that early on I could have made things a lot easier on her and us. Instead I worked on finding her more friends, going to visit old friends etc. instead of focussing on her attachment to us which was showing some wear and tear at that point.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls* 
I don't think consentual living means you can't do things without your child ever. .

Oh, yeah, I didn't mean that at all, lol. I have no problem with going shopping without her. I was a bit worried that I feel I *have* to shopping without her, or let her buy within a budget, or else she will have that extreme contrary reaction. It came up with my mom because one thing I bought was too small. No biggie, it was only $2. But the point was that I would rather shop without her and risk buying some things that are too small (can not return at a consignment sale....less of an issue at an actual store), than take her with me and have to deal with her expectation to choose every item.

Yes, she is 6. We moved long-distance, and she does homeschool. She is grieving the loss of friends, although she already has made friends here. I know that moving is very difficult for children, but I just think that her reaction is well beyond the realm of normal. I mean, she is *so angry*. Not sad. Angry. It is really difficult to read that your dd has still not forgiven you. Yesterday, we were talking about forgiveness (because she wanted to know if I had forgiven her after a violent rage....she only asked because I spent some time afterward crying and she wanted to know if I would play with her now). After talking a bit (and of course telling her I forgive her), I asked if she can forgive us for moving. Her response was "I don't know"







:


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## hippymomma69 (Feb 28, 2007)

I parent this way also (though I aspire to be more CL) and I don't *think* it's your parenting style - at least I hope not!

My DD can also get oppositional (she is almost 4 and it's recently gotten worse). I also don't take her clothing shopping - not because she would argue with me, but because she just wouldn't be interested and I'd have to follow her around to her interests or risk having her be complaining the whole time!

Re: the move - have you tried some Playful Parenting techniques? I don't use them all the time but I find them helpful for "recurrent" problems...especially ones with strong emotions, like a move. Maybe play with her and let her get out all of her feelings. Let her tell you (or a stuffed animal) how much she hates where she is now, etc. Really get all those feelings out? Let her turn the tables and force *you* to move with her (pretend)? It might help.

I guess I just see part of "oppositional" behavior as living with another person who has different feelings and different perspective - but who can't rationally discuss things yet....not sure what I'd do with a 12 year old - I guess playful parenting doesn't work as well at that age? At that age, something like a move I guess will seem difficult. You can discuss and try to persuade but if the kid isn't buying it - well they don't have a choice, they still have to move with you! Much harder at that age, I think.

Anyway, your daughter's behavior doesn't seem so unusual to me. It sounds like you are a great mom!

good luck
peace,
robyn


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## lilsishomemade (Feb 12, 2005)

I think you've gotten some wonderful advice. I'm keeping note of it all.

My dss is often very angry, mostly because of something his mother did and it carries over to when he's with us. He's nine now and I don't know if being playful would help with him. What about writting it down in a letter for an older child? It's always easier for me to write it all down, because I'm able to really think my thoughts through. Letters don't have to be sent, but it would help to get those feelings out.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

How long ago did you move? Grieving the loss of friends is perfectly understandable but it should improve with time. Of course the amount of time is different for everybody but over time there should be improvement.

Sometimes though people get "stuck" in the grieving. Do you think she should be past it yet?

anger at you is ok, as long as it's directed appropriately, not hurtfully.

I think with regard to the shopping thing...she's only six so she hasn't yet developed the ability to deal with the shopping thing in an appropriate way(the disappointment of not getting what she wants). I think not taking her until she develops this ability is ok. She does take it a bit far but I would continue talking to her about it when You are not in the middle of it.

The only way the shopping is consentual is if it works for you..the attitude she gets when shopping and not getting what she wants isn't working for you so you don't take her..sounds very reasonable. I do think she needs to know.

approach it as dd, sometimes I feel I can't take you shopping because it doesn't work for me...brb


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

What is CL? Child led?


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Well, I have a two part answer:

First, it is most likely highly variable, and it really depends on each family's individual characteristics, personalities, and level of eclectic, eccentricity.

However, part two of my answer is, I had rather "eclectic" parents (very unusual, non-traditional, unconventional, and counterculture with many, many issues) and I turned out to be nothing like them as an adult, probably due in part to what they were like.

So, yeah, I can see it potentially having an opposing effect.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls* 
Do you think she should be past it yet?

anger at you is ok, as long as it's directed appropriately, not hurtfully.


It has only been a month, so, no, I don't expect her to be past it at all. But her anger is being expressed in violent rages.....she has a history of these from the age of 3. They come and go in times of stress. They came and went around the birth of my son, for example. But she is getting too big for these to be at all acceptable at this point. It is really getting out of control, and now there is a baby's safety to think about.

Like I said, she has issues. I guess I am just wondering if somehow, allowing her lots of control as much as possible and then denying her control at other times is a recipe for disaster for her. At other times I wonder if we would be having much bigger problems, or much more consistent problems, if it weren't for my parenting techniques.

How about this question....do most kiddos try to control really big things, like the car you buy? And then get outrageously upset when they don't get a say? Or think they get to approve of the name of a sibling? Or the house you buy? Or is it just my kid?


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spring Flower* 
What is CL? Child led?

consentual living....where a mutually agreeable decision is found when there is a conflict between parent and child. Not sure if I spelled consentual right....maybe if I could spell it I could live it


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

If you haven't read it, I highly recommend reading _The Explosive Child_ by Ross Greene. I love it, it has really helped our family.

http://www.thinkkids.org/

http://www.explosivekids.org/pdf/caregiverhandout.pdf

I inclined to think that your parenting style up to now is not the cause of your dd's explosions. Even if you later find that any new understanding of your dd and her explosions leads you to make changes in how you parent, that won't necessarily mean that what you've done up to now was a major cause of her difficulties.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama* 
consentual living....where a mutually agreeable decision is found when there is a conflict between parent and child. Not sure if I spelled consentual right....maybe if I could spell it I could live it









Thank you!


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

I really think that most people parent that way, in differing degrees. Definitely most emotionally healthy peole, though they might not have terms for it, recognize that it's beneficial for children to make their own decisions whenever possible and make the decisions for them when it's too big for the kid or safety/money related. All of my friends, while none of them are "GD" per say, parent this way. So I don't think that would cause her to be so angry.

But I don't know what would! How's her sleep? Does she get enough?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I would guess the move and her sense of helplessness about it is what's making her oppositional, not your parenting style. Your parenting style is what makes her comfortable letting you know how she feels about it, and I think that's actually a good thing as far as her emotional health goes, even if it bothers you to hear about it.

I'd just give it time and let her know you understand how angry she is and you love her no matter where you live or how she feels. In time she'll get used to the move.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Ok, this is the reassurance I need. Every time we go through this I start to wonder if I've somehow really screwed up









I am ashamed to say that I've never read The Explosive Child. I've held it, paged thru, heard the main points, and even watch about 1/4 of the video. I don't know why I've avoided it....I've read so many other parenting books. Maybe on some level I don't want to have an Explosive Child and need the book. Sigh. I'll get to the book store this week.

The playful parenting is a great idea. That book I have read


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

sunmama


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg* 
If you haven't read it, I highly recommend reading _The Explosive Child_ by Ross Greene. I love it, it has really helped our family.

http://www.thinkkids.org/

http://www.explosivekids.org/pdf/caregiverhandout.pdf

I inclined to think that your parenting style up to now is not the cause of your dd's explosions. Even if you later find that any new understanding of your dd and her explosions leads you to make changes in how you parent, that won't necessarily mean that what you've done up to now was a major cause of her difficulties.









:


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## Thao (Nov 26, 2001)

I agree with those who say this is just your dd's personality and your parenting style is not to blame. The trick is how to teach her to deal with her personality. Retain the good parts (passion, determination, forcefulness) and moderate the bad (anger).

My dd is somewhat like this too, although not to the same extreme. I am trying to take a long-term view of it. I asked myself, given a personality that wants to always be in control, what is the most important thing I can teach her?

The answer: acceptance. Life is life, and there are certain things we cannot control whether we are children or adults. An adult who cannot accept things that are beyond their control (a layoff, death in the family, loss on the stock market, etc) is going to have problems. So I am trying to teach my dd acceptance of the things that lay outside her control.

In our case, I've been focusing on meditation, modelling (like talking about my own thought processes when confronted with something outside my control) and the occasional "It's life, kiddo, suck it up!"







:


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
most emotionally healthy peole, though they might not have terms for it, recognize that it's beneficial for children to make their own decisions whenever possible and make the decisions for them when it's too big for the kid or safety/money related. All of my friends, while none of them are "GD" per say, parent this way.









:

I think this is so true.

In fact, I was just thinking the other day how many of the moms I know who I consider wonderful, loving, supportive parents practice GD in a de facto way, even if they don't call it that or subscribe to other NFL ideals.

Kind of interesting!


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Wonderful advice so far but I just wanted to add to make sure she has control over a lot of little "things" in her life. I make the big decisions here but my kids are empowered with pretty much all of the little decisions. We may chat about the "medium" decisions; ie. should we go for Thai food or Mexican food tonight?

And, at some point in their lives, each kid has had an explosive tantrum somewhere and we just quietly packed up and left. No discussion, no yelling, just removal from the situation. I'm usually out w/girlfriends so we have an agreement that if one of us needs to leave w/an angry child, someone else will watch the remaining children & bring them home.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thao* 
The answer: acceptance. Life is life, and there are certain things we cannot control whether we are children or adults. An adult who cannot accept things that are beyond their control (a layoff, death in the family, loss on the stock market, etc) is going to have problems. So I am trying to teach my dd acceptance of the things that lay outside her control.

In our case, I've been focusing on meditation, modelling (like talking about my own thought processes when confronted with something outside my control) and the occasional "It's life, kiddo, suck it up!"







:

Ah, this is spot on. Yes, she needs to learn to accept when things are out of her control. That is a huge challenge for her....her response to a lack of control in one aspect of life is to try to control EVERYTHING else around her, and especially me (how I take care of the baby, to how I walk the dogs, sometimes even what and how I eat







: ).


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BusyMommy* 
Wonderful advice so far but I just wanted to add to make sure she has control over a lot of little "things" in her life. I make the big decisions here but my kids are empowered with pretty much all of the little decisions. We may chat about the "medium" decisions; ie. should we go for Thai food or Mexican food tonight?


This is our normal relationship (although it is very rocky right now, and both of us are handling things poorly). But that is the actual issue....when I make a big decision, she gets pretty enraged. It seems to me that, since she makes lots of little decisions, she is outraged when she doesn't get a say in the big things. But, yeah, I guess this isn't the case for most kids. It is probably just her personality, and not my parenting.


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## Thao (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:

her response to a lack of control in one aspect of life is to try to control EVERYTHING else around her, and especially me
Oh boy, does that sound familiar. The one thing that can send my dd into a fit faster than anything else is when I won't do what she wants me to do at the moment.









If you follow any religion, that is probably a good place to start working on her accepting situations outside her control. When you think about it, that's pretty much a major theme running through all religions. If you're Christian, you "give it to God". If you're Buddhist, you "practice detachment". etc...


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## kbchavez (Jul 20, 2006)

Thao said:


> Oh boy, does that sound familiar. The one thing that can send my dd into a fit faster than anything else is when I won't do what she wants me to do at the moment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Adastra (May 30, 2007)

Quote:

Yes, she needs to learn to accept when things are out of her control.
I agree with this. I'm also not sure that giving her additional control will help in this process at all.

It's definitely something we struggled with with my oldest son when he was four until seven or so.

We spent a lot of time in those years talking about things that no one controls (weather, traffic), that laws control (children can't drive), that parents control (where we live, some of our house rules), and things that children control (how and what they play, which toothbrush to use, what to have for breakfast, etc). We tried to discuss this when things weren't heated up, just as part of talking about the world. This gave us some framework for discussion when DS would get upset about something.

We also talked about how trying to control what we couldn't didn't usually work and just caused problems. We modelled saying "oh well, that's the way it is." It wasn't a magic bullet, but it definitely helped a lot.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

I could have written the OP post, except not the move part. For us, her day care has been a huge issue lately. It's been very rough for us the past year. My DD is 4.5.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adastra* 
We spent a lot of time in those years talking about things that no one controls (weather, traffic), that laws control (children can't drive), that parents control (where we live, some of our house rules), and things that children control (how and what they play, which toothbrush to use, what to have for breakfast, etc). We tried to discuss this when things weren't heated up, just as part of talking about the world. This gave us some framework for discussion when DS would get upset about something.

We also talked about how trying to control what we couldn't didn't usually work and just caused problems. We modelled saying "oh well, that's the way it is." It wasn't a magic bullet, but it definitely helped a lot.

These are some new talking points for us. I will try this.

Also, I noticed this on the front page of Mothering (online). Some more helpful hints for children with explosive tempers. I found it interesting that he is emphasizing reward and punishment for these behaviors (after measures to prevent, and discussion, etc). I have tried to avoid reward/punishment (although will punish violent behaviors with loss of privileges when we are dealing with rages). I feel very conflicted about relying on reward/punishment, but I am wondering if it is the best course for this type of behavior problem. Maybe use the reward/punishment for behavioral modification, and then drop it once new behaviors have been learned.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

sunmama, punishment has been very discouraging for my child and tends to feed the whole cycle of rage/aggression. I would encourage you to consider rewards without punishment first. Doing something positive is likely to be more helpful, IME.

I do think rewards can have their place when a problem has gotten to be really difficult. Unrelated to rages, my dd has significant anxiety and part of our approach to helping her cope with her anxiety has been to set goals with her, and to plan with her a way of celebrating when she reaches a goal. It's less "you earned this" and more "great, you did it! let's celebrate." Maybe this is technically no different from your standard reward system, but it does have a different feel than the reward system the article seems to be talking about (and that different feel was more appealing to my dd).

We haven't used any rewards for dd's handling her strong emotions more appropriately (that is, for the absence of rages) in quite a long time (we did try rewards long in the past, to no avail-though honestly we haven't tried the "let's set a goal and celebrate meeting your goal" method for rages). But we do find that plenty of positive, specific feedback really helps. It's much more effective to spend more time focusing on the positive and less time focusing on the negative, even if at first we have to look really hard to find something positive to focus on. "What you focus on, you get more of."


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## cheery (Jul 29, 2004)

Sounds like I approach consensual living similarly to OP - I realised early on that my dd did not even consent to my closing our front door, and in a CC (continuim concept) perspective, why should she? why should we have a door (locked, to her)? I am not being flippant, I completely agree with her and wish I had the courage to live in an environment more consistent with CC. And I believe that there are little things we can do every day to bring our neighborhoods closer to that ideal.

Quote:

How about this question....do most kiddos try to control really big things, like the car you buy? And then get outrageously upset when they don't get a say?
I can imagine my dd reacting this way. I try to do a lot of explaining whenever I know she isnt going to have a say. I dont hesitate to talk about complex issues like cost, environment, in so far as they affect my decision. I have had to tell her why we aren't buying things big or small. I think I do this in various degrees - i.e. there may be times that I am giving this info but she will still have a say and some times when she won't so that ...

well I am not so clear on the "so that ..." but I hope it is all helping us to work towards informed consent and informed living


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

Hi Sunnmama!

I just saw this post. First, the link you provided in your last entry isn't working and I would really love to see what you are referencing. If possible, could you fix it?

My DD has the same behavioral issues as yours (we discussed this several years ago) and I do find that my daughter struggles mightily still with impulse control. She's pretty good at school but it's almost as if she stockpiles her frustration at school and unleashes it when she gets home. My DD absolutely hates to be told to do anything and her first response is always "no" or some other argument. Transitions are still a major problem for us and my daughter still gets very frantic at the drop of a hat and becomes instantly unreasonable. I am very guilty of giving in to her to avoid the tantrum or the embarrassment in public. I also desperately want to avoid humiliating her in front of her friends by reprimanding her but she makes it impossible because she is so frantic when she wants something and I say "no".

I give my DD a say in just about everything but that doesn't seem to make a difference. I am beginning to wonder if I will be forced to go into a more "reward/punishment" scenario which I am really opposed to...


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

I fixed the link!


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## Adastra (May 30, 2007)

I'm pretty positive about a behavioral approach, but I didn't love the emphasize on distant rewards in that article.

I like rewards that are small, verbal, and frequent - more like feedback - "I like the way you handled that" "Look how well you are staying calm!" "I'm so proud of the way you let that go." This works better for my kids because 1. it is a frequent reminder and not a distraction 2. they don't LOSE anything big if they slip and 3. (in the case of my control freak son) I could offer the feedback/praise before he had much of a chance to flip out over something, which actually prevented the flip-out..

Not that I wouldn't make a special trip for ice cream on a day when strides had been made. Or bought a special treat because "I can see how hard you are trying to whatever."

I guess I should emphasize that although he was an enormous control freak, he was not oppositional. Affirmation and positive feedback was something he really thrived on.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LoveBeads* 
My DD has the same behavioral issues as yours (we discussed this several years ago) and I do find that my daughter struggles mightily still with impulse control. She's pretty good at school but it's almost as if she stockpiles her frustration at school and unleashes it when she gets home.


I did know that our dds have a lot in common, but I didn't know they shared this issues.










We homeschool dd, and sometimes dh thinks it would be better if we sent her....but I know this is exactly what would happen. She would be great for them--a model student--and then would explode at home


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