# Don't know where else to post this; I want to have a baby for my friend



## Lazurii (Apr 1, 2011)

I have a very dear and sweet friend that has one child but always wanted more. She had a horrific birth experience that eventually led to the removal of her uterus and ovaries. She's younger than me and I haven't seen 30 yet.

They really want to foster and adopt but their finances are not really in a place for adopting. They can afford another child easily, but the adoption fees are such that they would be a large hamper.

For a few years now I have been seriously considering offering to give birth do a baby and give it to them for adoption. Is this even done? How would it work? I would rather have a biological child with my husband and then give the baby to them rather than 1) being inseminated by her husband's semen (too weird for me) or 2) having them find a donor egg and then having me go through fertility treatments that go with being a surrogate.

Anyway, I'm looking for any advice or information before I offer this to her. I really truly am okay with having a baby for her.


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## McGucks (Nov 27, 2010)

Firstly, what a completely wonderful and selfless thought. Your friend is so lucky to have you in her life.

Secondly the financial issue is one to be seriously considered. Do you have insurance? If there are complications, how would those issues be paid for? Even a relatively minor complication (in my case, insulin-dependent GD) can be very expensive (and time-consuming and stressful) even with insurance.

Thirdly, there is always the chance that you would not find yourself able to part with the child in the manner in which you intend.

My thought would be for all parties to a) see a counselor together, and b) see a lawyer together. You and your spouse will be bonded to the child and your friend and her husband for life, as will any other children from either set of parents.

Yes, I think this kind of thing can be done and done well; done compassionately and caringly and wonderfully. But carefully.

Whichever path you choose, I wish you luck and commend you on your willingness to give of yourself.


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## Lazurii (Apr 1, 2011)

McGucks, thank you for the thoughtful reply. We do have insurance and it's very good.

That was wonderful advice about seeing a counselor and lawyer.

I do think The Hubby and I would be attached to the child, but hopefully not in a "We're the rightful parents!" kind of way. Another one of my friensd did surrogacy for two pregnancies (donated egg and sperm), and I've talked at length about it with her. I know I could never be fully prepared for the adoption, but I hopefully have a good idea about how it goes and how I would feel about it.

Again, thank you for your compassionate words. They've given me a lot to think about.


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## rcr (Jul 29, 2008)

Lazurii: That is really selfless and kind of you.

I would be very concerned (and a little offended) about the fact that you would rather have the child be biologically yours instead of letting them use their sperm or donor eggs. I am dealing with infertility, and I would never agree to those terms. We are looking at donor eggs, but if I were in your friends position, I would be thankful of your offer, but decline it. The desire to have a genetic connection to your own child can be very strong (no matter how "weird" the idea of insemination with her DSs sperm seems to you), and for me, at least having a child that is genetically related to my DH helps a little. Since it is her child, you really should let her call the shots about who the father is, if you are going to do this. There is nothing weird at all with donor eggs or sperm - people do it every day. What exactly do you think is so weird about it?

I hope this is not offensive. Your offer is really kind and generous.

ETA - the treatments for using donor eggs are really easy, actually. It is the donor that goes through the hard part. Donor sperm is pretty simple too.


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## McGucks (Nov 27, 2010)

I understand the "weirdness." Frankly, I think conception in general is kinda weird. I found myself embarrassed at times when I was pregnant just because people would know how I got that way! I have issues, I know...

If you are willing to do this for your friend, you will communicate under what circumstances you could comfortably do it, just as she will hopefully do the same for you.


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## CrazyCatLady (Aug 17, 2004)

I have been a birth mom three times. I know how wonderful it is the help grow a family. I also know the pain and misery of losing a child to adoption. If you have any questions, you can feel free to ask me. I do think that you are a wonderful person though for even thinking of doing this. However, I am worried for you and your husband if you actually go through with it.


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## LessTraveledBy (Feb 9, 2005)

I really think that you should spend some time reading literature about adoption from the "other side".... It is often not a piece of cake for the child and this situation, in my opinion, could be really harmful to the mental health of the child. "What was wrong with me that my parents, though they kept my siblings, found it possible to give me away?" What may now seem like a selfless act could end up, I dare say, would end up hurting the child for life. There is a huge difference between your idea and using someone else's eggs and sperm...


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## CrazyCatLady (Aug 17, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LessTraveledBy*
> 
> I really think that you should spend some time reading literature about adoption from the "other side".... It is often not a piece of cake for the child and this situation, in my opinion, could be really harmful to the mental health of the child. "What was wrong with me that my parents, though they kept my siblings, found it possible to give me away?" What may now seem like a selfless act could end up, I dare say, would end up hurting the child for life. There is a huge difference between your idea and using someone else's eggs and sperm...


Definitely. I have a lot of explaining to do when my birth children grow up.

OP, have you looked into surrogacy at all? It's really not all that "icky". There is a site called all about surrogacy. Maybe you should check it out and see if maybe that is something you could handle. That would still be a huge sacrifice and blessing to your friend with out the ramifications of placing your own biological child.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

I think you should also take into consideration that your oldest is going to be 5 or older at the time that you do this. Maybe it will have no impact, but it may. I have met quite a few birthsiblings who searched (and felt deep loss) even when their parent did not seem to feel the same way. This isn't just about you, or your friend. And you don't have control over how your children will feel about it--either the one you place or the ones that you do not.


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## pumpkingirl71 (Jul 12, 2005)

You have gotten quite a bit of good advice, but I want to ad my two cents







Fostering or adopting from the state is free or almost free. There are good reasons not to do it. But if your friends feel that fostering to adopt is too complicated, they may be very unprepared for how complicated this situation would be. Botton line is that all adoption is complicated, you just have to find the one you can bear!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lazurii*
> 
> They really want to foster and adopt but their finances are not really in a place for adopting. They can afford another child easily, but the adoption fees are such that they would be a large hamper.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

OP I think you're a very thoughtful and kind woman for wanting to do this intensely loving thing for your friend....here is what I worry about:

You know how, when you find out you are pregnant, you're like "Oh, there is a little speck in me!" and you think about how that speck will become a baby. Then, you have an ultrasound at nine or ten weeks (or maybe not)...but you reach that phase where you're like "oh my gosh, it's not a speck anymore..it's a baby blobby!" and again, you think of how it will become a real, live, pink baby. Then you reach that "age of viability" and you are filled with awe, knowing that you made it to the point in your pregnancy where if, god forbid you should go into labor, your child would live! It's an amazing feeling, to know that there is a real live "viable" human inside of you.

Then, even more amazing than that....is the day this human comes out of you. Do you remember your childrens births? How you look at them and thought "holy shit, you are a REAL person" - not a speck, not a blob, not a sack of skin and bones that could be "viable".....a rolly, soft, pink little ACTUAL person.

We, so often, cannot truly conceptualize that these people within us are ACTUALLY people. When they are inside of us and we are feeling them move and learning what music gets them dancing and what food seems to give them hiccups, etc...we are bonding, but only half way, because there is a barrier between us. When they are born, in a split instant, context is provided for all of those experiences we've shared with them, through the barrier of our own bodies. In an instant we love them and the context provided by their existence right in front of our eyes, suddenly makes all of that time they spent in us even that much more lovely. You meet your baby..but that's not "day one" in your relationship...because you have history, all those days you carried them, thought of them, nourished and cared for them, you realize that though you are just meeting face to face, you've known them for a long while. That bond is so strong.

I'm worried about that for you. I'm worried that it would be hard enough to give up a baby which was not biologically yours...but at least you would be able to say "It was so nice to carry you, baby, but I was only a vessel...your real mama is going to take over from here".

What happens when it is your own baby? What happens when this child is born and has your husbands nose? Or your mothers intense eyes? What do you say to that baby? "It was so nice to carry you...and you are of me and of your father, my beloved, but I must give you away to this other woman because she has lost too much in this world...I will always love you, but I cannot be your mama....." - that has the makings for an absolutely heartbreaking outcome.

Do you really think you could take a baby, after it came out of you and you realized it was an actual baby....and give that child away? The sibling of your own dear children, the flesh and blood of your beloved husband? I think that would be REALLY difficult for you and I don't think you should spare ANY effort to try and make sure you could really do this.

Go back and look at the baby photos of your children. Better yet, if you have any, go back and look at the pictures you took with your newborns when they were fresh out of you...try to really take yourself back to those days, when you gave birth to your kids...and imagine taking that little baby and saying goodbye.

You can logic your way through handing over a baby which is not biologically yours....but the love between and mother and a child is not logical. If you KNOW in your heart that the baby is just as much your child as your other children...I think it's going to be very, very hard to make your heart go along with giving that child up.

Good luck. Your heart is in an awesome, awesome place on this one honey. I know you want only to try and help your friend and I can't believe what a crushing loss she has suffered, that's terrible. But you should really, really think about what this actually means. This could end up being so incredibly emotionally damaging for you.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pumpkingirl71*
> 
> You have gotten quite a bit of good advice, but I want to ad my two cents
> 
> ...


Amen to this. I do not think you can *ever* truly escape "complicated" when it comes to adoption or for that matter surrogacy (traditional or gestational)--not only are their multiple people involved, even worse these people are not static, they grow and change over time as well. Doesn't mean it can't be happy or turn out well--but whenever you involve people in anything, autonomous people who have their own thoughts and feelings (and this includes the future baby/child/adult) it is by definition going to be more complicated than the original idea.


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## Lazurii (Apr 1, 2011)

Thank you, everyone, you've given me a lot to think about.


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## Mom31 (Jun 11, 2011)

Please read the book Primal Wound before you go any further. Start reading blogs of adoptees and birth mothers. I can link you to them if you like. There are many listed on my blog... and many more on the blogs I link to mine.

Please consider the thoughts and feelings of your possible child in this.

I too at a time that my cousin was struggling with infertility had similar thoughts and feelings.... so I do get where you are coming from - there is actually an old post on here about it- from a old user name of mine....

This is not a good idea- for many many many reasons... but most of all it is not a good idea for the child you would be choosing to bring into the world.


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## ariahsmum (Jun 15, 2004)

Lots of good replies and food for thought here. Just to add, there is a specific surrogacy thread in FYT that might also be a resource/tribe to tap into.

Good luck!


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## JudiAU (Jun 29, 2008)

You gotten a lot of good advice. I would really, strongly advise you not to do this with your own genetic material. It would be much easier emotionally for all the parties if you were carrying a non-genetically matched child. Consider IVF with a donor egg and sperm donation from the friend's husband.


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## Mom31 (Jun 11, 2011)

I did a search to and asked a few people I know if they knew of a situation where this took place. I had one tell me that a friend of hers had done this exact thing- gave her friend a baby since her friend was infertile- that she could have raised- just wanted to help her friend out- the family that adopted the baby moved out of state and discontinued all contact with the birth mother. I don't know the particulars or any other detailed information.... but I do believe it to be a reliable source and that is something you would need to consider. Open adoption is not " legally binding" and not enforceable under the law- so even if your friend promised it- things could change once the baby is here. Just a word of caution.


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## Jen Muise (Mar 6, 2012)

What a generous thought! And so much to think about! Another aspect that no one seems to have brought up yet is that you presumably will want to stay friends with this family. How will you be addressed, and what part will you have in the child's life? What if they make decisions for the child that you don't like or don't agree with? What if they split up or die or have other tragedies/ life changes befall them, will you expect to have some option to take the baby in? Do you expect some kind of relationship with the child? Will you have any financial responsibility for the child? What if they move, or you grow apart as friends, or something happens that you wind up not liking each other very much? What if the baby isn't well when it's born, will they have the choice to not adopt & leave you with a special needs kid when you weren't expecting any kid at all? If you have testing while pregnant and find out that there is a problem, is abortion an option? If there are unexpected expenses, co-pays, medication etc. who pays? If you have need of counselling, or other aftercare (for depression etc.) who covers it? What kind of involvement will they have during gestation, and how much say (if any) in your medical/diet/ health decisions?

If you can't talk about all this stuff openly and honestly with yourself, your husband and your friends, I'd say that it's a bad idea. Probably none of that stuff is going to happen, but if it does you all could find yourself in a crazy emotional legal mess. Everyone would need to have their eyes wide open and expectations out in the open, or there is a very good chance that any of the relationships around the pregnancy could fall apart. I'm thinking if you can't get over a little squeamishness at the idea of being inseminated by another guy, this all might be a little much.

All that said, this could also be incredibly awesome and beautiful. Setting boundaries will be challenging, but if everyone is on the same page it could be great. I gave up a baby for adoption, and while it was the hardest thing I've ever done it worked out well for everyone in the end. It would have been a lot easier if I had planned the pregnancy with the intent of giving up the baby and known that my child was going to a happy family. Now that I have reunited with her and I know she grew up happy, it has been a great weight off my shoulders.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

If you are willing to do this for your friend, you will communicate under what circumstances you could comfortably do it, just as she will hopefully do the same for you.

That's the key IMHO. I would also not be willing to be impregnated with another man's sperm, so I feel for you on that one. Your friend and her husband may think that bio-connection to their newborn is very, very important, or they may think that it's not so important. There is no right answer to that - different people have different experiences.

If you proceed by conceiving your own bio-child, then you have the right to change your mind at any point. While your friend and her husband would be disappointed that you hadn't chosen adoption, it's a disappointment that your friendship would probably survive. If you use any of their genetic material, then your gift would become an obligation - that baby would be part theirs in a manner that they could enforce legally.

I heartily concur that counseling would be good for all four of you, as well as a lawyer if you decide to use their genetic material.

If I had a sister, I really think that I could step outside myself enough to do this for her, if I'd had all the babies I wanted to raise and she had not. Do you love this friend as much as you'd love a sister?


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## ckthom (May 10, 2012)

Of the responses I have read, I have not seen anyone ask how your husband feels about this. I know my husband would NEVER agree to giving away a child that was biologically ours. While I have seen a lot of great advice, I think you need to talk long and hard with your husband about this before making any kind of offer.


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## Lashlock (Oct 22, 2006)

I don't know, I can't say that if someone suggested to let me adopt one of their children and then it all changed at the end, that our friendship would survive that at all. That's a life changing experience and I can't say that it's simply "going back to life as normal"


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## rnra (Dec 15, 2011)

My neighbors are involved in a strikingly similar situation, and things did not go well. I don't want to muddy up everything here for the sake of their privacy (and potential court proceedings), but let's just say that everyone had good intentions from the beginning, lawyers were involved the whole way, and things are very very sour now.

Perhaps a better route would be to assist your friend in raising the money necessary for adoption through an agency/private lawyer. You could host a fun run, garage sales, boutique, fundraising dinner, silent auction, or anything else. You could raise money in any way you know how and donate the money to their adoption fund. One thing to consider is professional skills that you have. If you are an accountant--you could do taxes for people but give the money to your friend instead of keeping it for yourself. If you do hair, you could do likewise. Plus, many clients are more likely to contribute a little extra if they know that the money is going towards a good cause. Think of whatever you do for employment now, and then brainstorm ways to use that to raise money for her.

Does your friend have any religious affiliations? There are several religious-based adoption agencies that have significantly lower fees than other organizations.


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## Mom31 (Jun 11, 2011)

What religious based adoption agencies are you referring to? The religious based ones I know of- are just as costly. I would be interested to know which ones you know of and research them.


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## Lazurii (Apr 1, 2011)

ckthom, I have discussed this with The Hubby and it is supportive of possibly offering this opportunity to our friends.

If we were to go through with this there would obviously be much discussion between the four of us. I can't speak for my friend but since she's willing to adopt a child from the state or foster care I'm assuming that genetics is not an end-all with them. There would be a lawyer involved.

Thank you for all of the advice, I have been pondering it on and off since starting this thread. A lot of food for thought.


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## pumpkingirl71 (Jul 12, 2005)

Sorry to keep coming back to this, but adoption from the state if free. The fact that your friend says it is too expenive is really concerning to me..

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lazurii*
> 
> I can't speak for my friend but since she's willing to adopt a child from the state or foster care I'm assuming that genetics is not an end-all with them.


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## Lazurii (Apr 1, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pumpkingirl71*
> 
> Sorry to keep coming back to this, but adoption from the state if free. The fact that your friend says it is too expenive is really concerning to me..


Hmm, maybe she doesn't know this. Thanks for the info.


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## Just1More (Jun 19, 2008)

I think it would be really, really difficult to explain this to the child. I loved them so much, I gave you away? I just don't see this being a good idea for the child.

And, I know this is going to come across harshly, and I can see that you are coming from a pure place with this, but, I still think this needs said...

People are not gifts.


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## Mom31 (Jun 11, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Just1More*
> 
> I think it would be really, really difficult to explain this to the child. I loved them so much, I gave you away? I just don't see this being a good idea for the child.
> 
> ...


THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i agree. Whole heartedly. Please educate yourself. If you want to talk to me privately please message me I will speak with you. I am so troubled by this idea... please go read primal wound before you take one more step!


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## rnra (Dec 15, 2011)

LDS Family Services charges 10% of the prior year's gross annual tax return, with a minimum of $4,000 and a maximum of $10,000. However, if there are families that can not afford the $4,000 then the fee is usually covered by their congregation.

There is a Jewish Family Services Office in the building where I work, and in talking informally with their counselors it sounds like their fees are structured similarly--it is based on the family's income, but financial assistance is also offered.

Also, I looked into it more and it sounds like adopting through a state agency is free. There are so many children already in this world who need loving homes. You could help her locate adoption agencies that she can afford and then throw her a big baby/kid shower when the placement is finalized. I agree with the prior poster---children are not gifts, even when there are good intentions.


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## Lazurii (Apr 1, 2011)

Okay, whoa, everyone cool down. I'm asking for advice, and I've gotten wonderful feedback. But please don't let this degenerate into a , "OMG, you're not thinking enough/clearly/how I would/in a Western way, so you must be wrong!" Please, can we keep this a constructive and open-minded conversation?


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## LessTraveledBy (Feb 9, 2005)

Lazurii.... honestly.... When you bring up an idea potentially as damaging to a child as this, you will need to be open to rather strong comments. I think people have actually been pretty gentle with you. The Primal wound suggestion is a very good one. You need a whole lot more help here than what any of us can give you.

I don't see how it is right to take the hurt of a person (the couple in question) and move that hurt, and possibly tons more, to another person (the baby). Your friends have a child and each other to help cope, your plan would shake the very foundations of the security of this baby. Not a fair thing at all, in my opinion. (And this is coming from someone who knows exactly how painful secondary infertility can be.) My hurt simply does not mean that it is okay to move that hurt on to a baby. That would be little more than using someone to make myself feel better. That is not love, it is selfishness.


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## McGucks (Nov 27, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LessTraveledBy*
> 
> Lazurii.... honestly.... *When you bring up an idea potentially as damaging to a child as this*, you will need to be open to rather strong comments.


Raising children, regardless of circumstance, is a whopping big potentially damaging situation. We all hurt our children, regardless of original intent. We all hurt our loved ones (parents, partners, spouses, you name it) from time to time. I am sure I have damaged my teen in countless ways, though in different ways than my parents did to me.

I wholeheartedly disagree with LessTraveledBy's statement that the OP is acting out of selfishness. She has come here with a noble, kind, and brave question. If folks disagree, that's one thing. Name-calling and statements about possible intent to damage an as-yet-to-be-conceived child is not what seems necessary, compassionate, or helpful.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

Raising children, regardless of circumstance, is a whopping big potentially damaging situation.










To clarify my remark earlier, I agree that people are not gifts. But offering to conceive and carry a child for somebody (regardless of whose DNA is involved) is a massive gift of self.

OP, some people here are simply anti-adoption. They don't have bad intentions, any more than you have bad intentions, but their ideology doesn't allow them to support an adoption plan as anything but an absolute last resort. To plan the conception of a child who will be parented by somebody other than the bio parents is inherently offensive to them. You are not going to get any support from that quarter.

I'm of the "parent is a job description" school of thought, so you're going to get support from me







I'm not sure you should do this - but I'm absolutely sure that you should ponder it, and discuss it with your husband, and discuss with your friend and her husband. Even if they don't want your help, they'll appreciate the depth of your love for them.


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## LessTraveledBy (Feb 9, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *McGucks*
> 
> Raising children, regardless of circumstance, is a whopping big potentially damaging situation. We all hurt our children, regardless of original intent. We all hurt our loved ones (parents, partners, spouses, you name it) from time to time. I am sure I have damaged my teen in countless ways, though in different ways than my parents did to me.


Yes, but all these hurts you mention would in this case go on top of the hurt of your parents having decided to give you away.

I am very pro-adoption, by the way. Just definitely not pro this particular scenario.


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

I am generally in favor of adoption, and I think that open, consensual adoptions can be wonderful things. I am concerned about this plan, however. I would want you to talk it over with, among other things, a family therapist before bringing it up with your friend.

You talk as though this child would be a gift to your friend, and I worry about the implications of that. I agree that people are not gifts, but that's not the only thing that worries me.

In many, many cultures, a gift creates an obligation to, at some point, give a reciprocal gift. Would your plan create feelings of obligation and resentment? How would you deal with those feelings if they arose?

Is it possible that this plan appeals to you as a means of creating a permanent connection between you and your friend? How do you feel about the stability of your friendship now? How would you feel if that relationship became less stable, or less important to one or both of you?


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## CrazyCatLady (Aug 17, 2004)

I am not anti-adoption. I only see one person on this thread who I know to be anti-adoption, and she has been pretty quiet and polite about that fact.

I still can't help but feel like this is a terrible idea though. I have been around the adoption world from the birth parent side for a long time now. It's just not that easy to give away a child (and yes I realize that "place" is the more p.c. term). I've seen adoption destroy too many birth parents, including myself. And it doesn't always happen at first. It can take many years for the guilt and grief to kick in. But once it does, it's too late and you're the one left to deal with it. And if it's an open adoption, then there is always that open wound. I think a happy or content birth mom is a very rare thing once you get down to it. I've seen marriages destroyed, I've seen suicide happen...we're talking some serious grief here. And to volunteer for that when there are other options that her friend could pursue, just seems really unnecessary. And all that is with out even touching the ramifications that this may have on the child.

OP, I am a 3x birth mom who is about to become a surrogate. So I completely understand where you are coming from in wanting to help your friend like this. I really do "get" it. But creating a birth child between your husband and you, to just give away to your friend, is setting yourself up for a really bad situation. I really hope you reconsider. However, if you do go through with it and need to talk to anyone. Feel free to PM me.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

" I think a happy or content birth mom is a very rare thing once you get down to it."

I agree. But if there is a way to set yourself up to be a happy, content birth mom, making an adoption plan pre-conception sounds to me like a serious improvement over the situation of most birth moms, who are making a plan ex post facto and don't feel that they have the resources to raise a(nother) child. I don't think that adoptive families generally coerce birthmoms into giving up their babies, but I think that the pressure of circumstance often does. The lack of coercion is one of the things that makes me want to encourage the OP to explore this plan.

You are about to be a surrogate? Congrats!

LessTraveledBy writes: ... all these hurts you mention would in this case go on top of the hurt of your parents having decided to give you away.

Unpack that statement. Why would "your parents" be the people who donated your DNA, rather than the people who raised you? Why would anybody (kid or parent) frame the issue of origins in that way?


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## Mom31 (Jun 11, 2011)

leaving this alone now- I have said my part..

I will leave this link though.

http://www.originsnsw.com/mentalhealth/id4.html


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smithie*
> 
> Unpack that statement. Why would "your parents" be the people who donated your DNA, rather than the people who raised you? Why would anybody (kid or parent) frame the issue of origins in that way?


Regardless of what you or anyone else thinks, my past did not get erased with my adoption. My birthparents ARE my parents. The people who raised me ARE my parents. It's not a contest, it's reality. And it's really not that complicated.


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## Just1More (Jun 19, 2008)

I'm not anti-adoption. I think it's a wonderful thing, in the right time and place.

I just don't think this is it.

For the record, I have moral issues with surrogacy in general, but I wouldn't blink about the op going that route for her friend. Giving a child away though, without need or duress, to me is NOT a moral issue, but one of human rights. And those rights go beyond culture, feeling, religion, or otherwise.

Peace.


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## McGucks (Nov 27, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LessTraveledBy*
> 
> Yes, but all these hurts you mention would in this case go on top of the hurt of your parents having decided to give you away.


How would you have any idea whether that was a factual statement? It may be in your case, or some cases, but absolutely not in all cases. In some situations, I have no doubt that giving a child up for adoption is the most tremendous act of love imaginable.

And, no, I am not adopted and have never given a child up for adoption.


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## Mom31 (Jun 11, 2011)

see link above


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## HRW71 (May 12, 2012)

Quote:


> Unpack that statement. Why would "your parents" be the people who donated your DNA, rather than the people who raised you? Why would anybody (kid or parent) frame the issue of origins in that way?


I consider myself to have two sets of parents. Both sets contributed to who I am. I choose not to diminish or devalue the people who created me. They gave me my physical appearance, intellectual capacity, certain traits, interests, and talents.

Why would anyone frame the issue of origins in that way? Well, because I didn't originate at the adoption agency. My origins predate my adoptive family.


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## Lazurii (Apr 1, 2011)

Hypothetical situations:

What if I donate my eggs to my friend, they fertilize them with his semen, and a different woman carries the baby to term. Does that mean it's still my baby? It was my egg.

Does the inclusion of his semen make it acceptable? If so, why? If they get a donated egg from a different woman, again use his semen, and then I act as a surrogate, that means I'm still not technically carrying my friend's child, I'm carrying the child her husband had with another woman.

If he were infertile as well they would have to find donor eggs and semen. What if the donors they chose were myself and The Hubby from a book of donors? Would that mean the resultant child is less theirs because it wouldn't have any genetic connection with them?

If the above are acceptable, and both parties agree to having both donated eggs and semen, why not skip a step and just impregnate me the usual way rather than doing it medically?


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

I consider myself to have two sets of parents. Both sets contributed to who I am.

Makes sense to me. But that's very different from the "my *real* parents gave me away, I am primally wounded" mentality. Some people ARE traumatized by their adoptions. I'm not trying to diminish that. But to tell a person who is contemplating an adoption plan that such a plan is inherently harmful to her child is dishonest IMO. Harm is one possible outcome on a wide spectrum of possible outcomes - and in this case and many others, the alternative to that risk of harm is non-existence.

Again, I'm not saying that the OP should rush out and do this. I'm just saying that it's not unethical to conceive a child that you plan to place with another set of parents.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

OP, I think all of those options in any combination are acceptable from a moral standpoint.

For me, the additional risk of taking the hormones used to facilitate IVF would be a big push in the direction of doing it the natural way. I was thinking about it more last night - if it came right down to it, if it was my sister or best friend, I think I'd strive to overcome the ick factor and use her husband's semen. I'm not sure if I could, but I think I would at least explore the issue with a counselor.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smithie*
> 
> OP, I think all of those options in any combination are acceptable from a moral standpoint.
> 
> For me, the additional risk of taking the hormones used to facilitate IVF would be a big push in the direction of doing it the natural way. I was thinking about it more last night - if it came right down to it, if it was my sister or best friend, *I think I'd strive to overcome the ick factor and use her husband's semen.* I'm not sure if I could, but I think I would at least explore the issue with a counselor.


I agree with this. IVF really freaks me out a lot....but maybe I could give my friend my egg mixed with her husbands sperm! Maybe that wouldn't be as bad feeling as my egg and my DHs sperm.

My best friends husbands semen in me would be....well, ahem, it would be a challenge to overcome....but giving away the biological child of my husband, the biological sibling of my children....I don't trust/love/respect/want to help anyone on this planet enough to hand over my own child for them to have, just, you know, as a gift. Maybe there was a time in my life before kids, when I was broke and living in a "college-y" apartment and working a shitty job and still figuring myself out that, had I fallen pregnant, that choice would have made sense to me.

But now? When I have children? When I'm living in the glorious glow of my golden days..when my kids are my world and my husband is young and handsome and everything is going well for us?? No, I couldn't give up a child now. That maternal soul-bond is too deep.

I'm just worried OP because I feel like the bond you feel with your child IS unavoidable. I think that as strong as your desire to help your friend is now, there is NO desire, NO bond, NO feeling as intense, deep and unavoidable as the feeling/bond/desire a mother feels for the baby kicking in her tummy. I'm worried you would get half way through the pregnancy and just start crumbling inside, realizing what you'd done.

To answer your questions:

If your friend and her DH go to a sperm bank and out of all the anonymous donations pick your husbands sperm and then they go to an egg donation clinic and out of all the eggs they unknowingly pick yours and then they mix those together and you carry the embryo to term for them and deliver a baby and hand it over.....it would be a completely different scenario. Not even close.

In that scenario, the knowledge that this child was actually 100% biologically yours/your DHs would be hidden from your heart. I think it would impact you....but not in any way as heavily as knowingly handing over your own baby.

You climbing into bed with your husband, making love to him and creating a child out of that loving and sacred act is totally different. In your mind you say "I made my friend a baby" - in your heart you say "My husbands seed and my own have brought into being the miracle of a new life" - your head can rationalize all day long....the whole time, your heart is forming a bond. You can't stop it. It is the way it is meant to be. You can't hide the knowledge of the true nature of the situation from your heart.

In your mind, when you are giving over the baby created in the first scenario...your heart doesn't have much to say - because it doesn't know the baby is yours. Your heart would be heavy, but it would say "I'm sad not to keep this baby I grew, it's a lot to go through to walk away from the hospital with no baby in my arms, but this baby was only grown in me, not made BY me and it belongs to my dear friend" - you have a hard battle to fight hormonally, but you get through it. In your mind, you can make yourself feel better: "Look at her, loving that baby! Look at my friend, finally a mother again just as she wanted! Look at the incredible gift I gave her!"

But in your mind, when you are giving over the baby created in the second scenario, out of an act of love between you and your DH....your heart has a lot to say and your mind CANNOT throw out any rationalization which can come CLOSE to countering the One True Fact of the situation that your heart will not let go of: It is your baby.

This baby will have your hair, your husbands eyes and will smell like all the rest of your babies did. This baby will know your scent and will recognize you and you will know that. This baby will be the product of a sacred love act between you and your husband and you will give her over anyway, because you will tell yourself "I am just being hormonal, of course I'm upset, that's no reason to deny my friend what I promised her" - and then you will go home and I don't know if it will be hours, days, weeks, months or years later...but you will fall apart over this.

How well will you recover? I think that depends on who you are. Maybe you are the "type" who will just bounce back from this. Maybe a little counseling will help you resolve your feelings and you be fine after a year. Maybe it will tear you apart...maybe it will rip you up and change you and send you down a completely different road in life. Maybe you will become depressed. Maybe you will resent your DH. Maybe your marriage will fall apart and you will regret ever having done this thing. Maybe you will go to counseling, feel completely healed a year down the line...go about your business as usual for two, five ten+ years...and then one day will be hit out of nowhere with true and deep grief you didn't know was still living in you. You never know. You just, can't know...

You don't know who you are going to be in the aftermath. I would tend to think that a person who is deeply kind and sweet enough to consider such an amazing act of love...is a deep enough well of caring and soul-goodness that she is going to be very greatly effected by trying to sever the maternal bond in this way and watch her friend raise her baby as her own.

I'm just throwing some of this out there. Maybe it would be all roses. But it could potentially be a really, really fucking bad thing that happened in your life. *Is it worth it, to take that gamble?* It is inviting the possibility for the kind of disaster that could be really hard to come back from and I don't know if I would think it was worth it to embark on such a road. We're not talking giving her your car or handing over half of your life savings to save her from foreclosure or something like that. We're talking about your flesh and blood child. That kind of hurt and trauma that could bring COULD change you and your life forever. Is it worth the risk? Is it worth possibly putting great strain on your marriage, on your existing children?

Your friend is so lucky to have a buddy like you. You couldn't ask for a better bosom buddy. She is incredibly unlucky to have experienced such a terrible, terrible loss during her first birth. But you have to see that she is walking her path...these experiences, they are hers. I know it feels like you are blessed with so much while she has lost so much...and it's tempting to want to take from your own heaping plate to give a bit of "what you can spare" to her. But you don't know what is in store for you on your path and you don't know what lies ahead for her on her path. I think wanting to help her is great....but I also think that you need to pay attention to your own life and protect yourself from the kind of path which could lie on the other side of making a decision like this.

If you making a child and giving it up for her, to try and fix HER bumpy path, leads you down a road that turns very dark and very troubled....who is going to swoop in and save YOU? And what is that person going to be able to swoop in and give you, which will come close to filling the kind of hole that could be left by giving up the sweet baby of your own loin? The little girl who grows up looking like a dead-ringer for your mother...or the little boy, who is your son, who grows up looking just like your DH? Just think so hard about that.


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## emma00 (Jan 14, 2003)

Do you have any idea how your friend would respond to this type of an overture? From my perspective - I would not be at all receptive to a friend offering to give me one of her children. I know your intention comes from a place of compassion for your friend. But I would feel a bit offended that a friend with no fertility problems just offers to "fix" my situation by giving me a child.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

I'm just worried OP because I feel like the bond you feel with your child IS unavoidable. I think that as strong as your desire to help your friend is now, there is NO desire, NO bond, NO feeling as intense, deep and unavoidable as the feeling/bond/desire a mother feels for the baby kicking in her tummy. I'm worried you would get half way through the pregnancy and just start crumbling inside, realizing what you'd done.

I worry about that, too, but my worry is less attached to where the baby's DNA comes from. If OP carries the baby, she will bond with the baby. S/he will smell "right" and recognize her voice and all that other stuff. It's not a hypothesis than can be reeasonably tested, since virtually all women who carry babies also put their DNA into the making of the baby and conceive the baby through sex with a man they have an emotional connection to, but... the people I know IRL who have deviated from that path have done better the more prepared and the less coerced they were. Friend who was too poor to raise a child placing the baby she'd accidentally conceived with a lover after months of indecision? Emotional firestorm. Friend who decided to be a surrogate for a relative? Postpartum was not the sunniest period of her life, but sooooo much better than the friend who felt constrained to place. She did not want to raise a baby at that time, and think of the baby as hers (and I think it was her egg, I never asked). The important part was that she did the emotional work upfront and was very sure of her choice before she got pregnant.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *emma00*
> 
> Do you have any idea how your friend would respond to this type of an overture? From my perspective - I would not be at all receptive to a friend offering to give me one of her children. I know your intention comes from a place of compassion for your friend. But I would feel a bit offended that a friend with no fertility problems just offers to "fix" my situation by giving me a child.


I agree with this. We have struggled unsuccessfully to conceive a second child, and are considering adoption but can't afford it right now. I can't pretend to know what your friend is going through, but from my perspective as someone dealing with some similar surface issues, I would not ever ever accept an offer of someone else's child. I wouldn't be offended, I would think it's an incredibly kind & loving gesture, but I would never in a million years accept the offer (except perhaps in a situation where the child was _already_ conceived and the couple genuinely could not keep him/her themselves).

So I guess I'm saying, talk to your friend & feel her out. I wouldn't outright make an offer at this point, but talk in hypotheticals perhaps... and find out whether it's even something you need to spend your time seriously considering & researching.

And if she is intrigued by the idea... I'd encourage you to proceed with caution. I can see a lot of potential issues with this arrangement, and as well-meaning as your intentions are, there are a lot of people's feelings to consider and a lot of potential ramifications no matter how this turns out.


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## erigeron (Oct 29, 2010)

I'm not adopted nor have I placed a child for adoption, and though I have a child of my own, I'm not sure my feelings for her prior to and immediately after her birth rose above the level of "Wow, this is a nifty little potential->human here". And if I'd spent nine months knowing that the nifty little potential->human I was carrying was intended for someone else, I might have been able to make that emotional separation. I think some people may be able to make that separation with less trauma than others, and while I wouldn't give up my child for any amount of love or money, I can see myself potentially feeling differently in a scenario where I'd chosen to carry for someone else and where I felt I was done having children of my own to raise.

The weirdest part of your scenario for me would be *trying to conceive* a child for someone else. "Okay, let's go! We gotta make a baby for Dan and Rosie." Erk.

That said, I don't think this scenario is fair to the potential child. I'm not anti-adoption; I think it can sometimes be the best solution. But I think it's probably in a child's best interests to be raised by their biological parent(s), unless there's some good reason that they shouldn't be. Assuming she (or he) knows the story of her origins, that child would always wonder why her biological parents decided to give her to someone else; if you're involved in her life, she'll always wonder if it would have been different being raised by you and having your children as her siblings, and if you're not involved, she'll wonder why that as well. (And you'll probably wonder all these things too if you are involved.) It just seems like a lot of weird to put on a child and that amount of weird could easily be completely avoided. Think what it would be like to grow up knowing that your parents' BFFs were actually your biological parents who gave you to your adoptive parents to raise. Weird. Just weird.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

I'm starting to feel really uncomfortable with people speaking as if once she decides (even pre-conception) to 'give' her baby to someone then for some reason that's an iron clad obligation. Ugh. No, it is not. A verbal (or even written) agreement is worth nothing until the baby is relinquished--which can only happen AFTER birth. The OP would not become a passive vessel because she said she'd give the child to her friend. That would be HER baby, period, until she completes the legal process to make it otherwise.


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## Lashlock (Oct 22, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tigerchild*
> 
> I'm starting to feel really uncomfortable with people speaking as if once she decides (even pre-conception) to 'give' her baby to someone then for some reason that's an iron clad obligation. Ugh. No, it is not. A verbal (or even written) agreement is worth nothing until the baby is relinquished--which can only happen AFTER birth. The OP would not become a passive vessel because she said she'd give the child to her friend. That would be HER baby, period, until she completes the legal process to make it otherwise.


The problem Is that SHE doesnt seem to see that. We do. We 're trying to explain that its fairly impossible for most people to simply be a vessel or to imagine that she can make this decison f
prior to birth. She is entering conception in this situation as if its surrogacy with legal proceedings prior to birth and calling it adoption


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## erigeron (Oct 29, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tigerchild*
> 
> I'm starting to feel really uncomfortable with people speaking as if once she decides (even pre-conception) to 'give' her baby to someone then for some reason that's an iron clad obligation. Ugh. No, it is not. A verbal (or even written) agreement is worth nothing until the baby is relinquished--which can only happen AFTER birth. The OP would not become a passive vessel because she said she'd give the child to her friend. That would be HER baby, period, until she completes the legal process to make it otherwise.


It's definitely not an ironclad obligation, but it would be best before she decides to do it (if she does decide so) for her to have a pretty good idea of what she is capable of and whether she really can go through with it. It's not something you want to enter into lightly. I think that may be what people are responding to.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Lashlock and erigeron, I am not new to the triad or this forum (or this debate). I do feel it's important, though, to call attention to the fact that relinquishing your biological child is not the same thing as surrogacy, surrogacy also is not legally protected in *most* areas of the the US, and the final decision for anything but a TPR adoption rests with the birthparent *as it should*. Talking about a baby as a gift, or presuming that once you tell a couple that you'll "give" your baby to them means you are locked into that decision is just...gross to me. The "gift" language of adoption has always disgusted me, though I realize that most people who use it "mean well."

I felt that drawing attention to the fact that no birthmother (unless her children are taken by the state) gives up ANY legal right until she signs those papers (and may have some redress available even so if they were signed under duress) was important given the turn that this conversation has been taking.

I also have a huge issue with the presumption that all worthy/sane/good mothers will feel some huge mystical connection with their baby in utereo, including strong bonding. While I think that it's a likely occurrance for a majority of people, I do not think that it happens for everyone (even people who keep their kids) and it certainly didn't make me an unfit mother (IMO) that I did not find pregnancy "sacred" and didn't have an insta-bond with any of my kids until they were actually, you know, in my arms. I love my kids, they love me, we are fine. I don't wish to denigrate people who have a different experience, but it would be nice if they extended the same courtesy to others. I do get the important of biology, as an adoptee, I was kind of shocked at how important that has been to me as a mom. (I grew up in a really fucked up adoptive home, which meant that I had no desire to meet other potentially fucked up people who happened to be related to me, "God gave" me all the parents I could handle with the ones that I was "given" to, TYVM--that is, until I had biological children and had a rather surprising connection experience with that.)

I just did not feel I could remain silent with people talking about this like it's an unavoidable conclusion if you get knocked up EVEN WITH the intent to relinquish. I'm allowed to state my discomfort. And god knows, in all the conversations/fights I've seen about surrogacy and purposeful adoption in my time (there have been many), that tidbit seems to get lost in the shuffle. A lot.

To be clear (and blunt, sorry OP), I think the scenario that the OP has presented (as presented) is naive and a terrible idea. I think it COULD be tweaked perhaps to make something work, but if someone is going down this road because adoption is "too expensive" or "too complicated" and different options are icky then that tells me that more thought needs to go into it. Adoption is complicated even if you think you want to do it. I can only imagine (from my limited experience of knowing a couple of people who have been gestational surrogates and 2 families that have used surrogates--hardly a representative sample) that surrogacy also has its complexities.

ETA: Sorry, lashlock, wow that was an embarrassing misspelling of your name. Corrected.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

TC i totally agree with your statement about not everyone viewing birth as sacred, mystical, etc...it actually took me until a few days or more after my son was born to have those intense feelings for him, i mean he was a nice baby and all but i didnt even feel like he was "mine" (and i had an intervention free homebirth it wasnt like i was zonked out on meds birthing him or something.)

I think we can debate this til the cows come home but i think there may be a good chance that the OPs friend wont even really want to do this. I know for me if i were in that situation on the one hand yeah i'd feel "oh a baby, i'll take it!" but if i really thought about it, im not sure i could raise the birthchild of my close friends if i saw them all the time. Im not sure i would feel comfortable with that. I might always wonder if they are judging me, even if they assume me they are not, and what if we disagreed about something major? What if we USED to agree about something, like method of schooling, then i changed my mind? Of course *I* would be The Mom, but it would just be complicated. And there is the VERY real potential for losing the friendship over it. I might not want to be reminded every time i saw you that you "gifted" me with a child that i could not have on my own. ....of course the friend might not feel any of that at all.


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## marsupial-mom (Feb 3, 2010)

If your friends are really OK with adoption and aren't adamant about having a child genetically related to one or both of them then perhaps a better solution is to help them fundraise to adopt a child in a more traditional manner? The sacrifices you're willing to make by being a surrogate are significant and fundraising would honestly be easier emotionally, physically, and even ethically. Moreover, it's likely that by helping them pay for an adoption you'd also be helping a child who really needs it.


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## Lazurii (Apr 1, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *marsupial-mom*
> 
> IMoreover, it's likely that by helping them pay for an adoption you'd also be helping a child who really needs it.


I wanted to reply to this. Do you advocate to everyone that they need to adopt before having biological children because there are children that do need homes already? Or is that specially reserved for people that are not able to have the own children and want to adopt or participate in surrogacy?

To everyone else, there is a good chance that she will not want go accept if I offer. But I wanted to offer and I wanted to gather as much information and advice as I could before offering. I'm like that.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lazurii*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Not everyone who adopts cannot get pregnant. Some families are comprised of both adoptive and biological children (mine included). Adopting from a very close friend has huge potential to strain the relationship, and in this case it seems as though you would be giving this couple the gift of a child. It just seems unethical to me, to intentionally conceive a child with your husband in order to give it to someone else. I'm not anti-adoption, I'm not anti-surrogacy, I just don't understand why you would want to give a child to someone else. Why not help and support them in some other way?


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## marsupial-mom (Feb 3, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lazurii*
> 
> Do you advocate to everyone that they need to adopt before having biological children because there are children that do need homes already? Or is that specially reserved for people that are not able to have the own children and want to adopt or participate in surrogacy?


If adoption comes up as an option, then YES absolutely I will advocate for needy children. And yes, I will encourage adoption of existing children over fertiliity treatments or surrogacy unless the person I'm speaking with is obviously not interested or offended. I don't advocate adoption for everyone, however, because I know it's not a realistic option for most people. Either they can't or won't love a child who isn't biologically related to them. Or they have some other issues that make adoption unappealing or difficult. But I do often remind people that adoption is a valid option for everyone, not a "second-best" option for the infertile.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

It just seems unethical to me, to intentionally conceive a child with your husband in order to give it to someone else.

This bugs the heck out of me. How could it be unethical to conceive a child who you have every reason to believe will be doted upon by adoring parents and have a great life? How could DNA possibly matter that much? I'm not saying that it doesn't matter at all, but SO MUCH that a child would be better off not existing than being raised by adoptive parents? I don't get it.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smithie*
> 
> It just seems unethical to me, to intentionally conceive a child with your husband in order to give it to someone else.
> 
> This bugs the heck out of me. How could it be unethical to conceive a child who you have every reason to believe will be doted upon by adoring parents and have a great life? How could DNA possibly matter that much? I'm not saying that it doesn't matter at all, but SO MUCH that a child would be better off not existing than being raised by adoptive parents? I don't get it.


So you think its ok to give someone a baby as an intentional gift? It feels too much like selling babies to me.

I'm ok with surrogacy, so I don't know why the idea bothers me so much. It's not that I think DNA actually makes that much of a difference - my brothers were both adopted, and it certainly didn't affect the relationship we have with each other. I can't exactly pin-point it.

I also realize that infertility can cause wounds that cannot be healed - a baby is the desire, but adopting a baby won't always cure those wounds. Some people who are infertile are not comfortable with adoption, and because it is such a private and personal decision those feelings get explained to outsiders as "It's too expensive" or "insert other totally valid but not entirely truthful reason here". No matter how close you are to someone, that person might not share with you their true feelings about adoption/surrogacy/etc, because of that private personal nature. Like someone else has pointed out, adopting from the state is "free" - money wise. Emotionally its an entirely different beast, and while the OP's friends might be OK with adoption in theory, adopting from the state might not be an acceptable option because of the emotional turmoil that comes with not knowing if the baby will be theirs forever, especially if placed with reunification as the goal.

That said, if private adoption, or international adoption is too expensive, I still don't think a person is a gift. Carrying a child with someone elses DNA is a gift - intentionally conceiving your own child to give to another person is treating children as property and not people. Adoption should be in the best interest of the child. I don't think its too much to say that its not in the best interest of the child to be given away as a gift.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

I think if you and your husband *intentionally* conceive and then give up baby, it could really be hurtful and confusing and painful for the person when they get older and try to figure it out.

I like the idea of helping to fundraise.

I'm not anti-adoption.


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## Mom31 (Jun 11, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smithie*
> 
> It just seems unethical to me, to intentionally conceive a child with your husband in order to give it to someone else.
> 
> This bugs the heck out of me. How could it be unethical to conceive a child who you have every reason to believe will be doted upon by adoring parents and have a great life? How could DNA possibly matter that much? I'm not saying that it doesn't matter at all, but SO MUCH that a child would be better off not existing than being raised by adoptive parents? I don't get it.


You are asking a very good question here and I urge you to research why some would feel this way. I think you would like this blog- this mom is an adoptive mother and an adoptee. So she sees both sides of the coin- and is very open about her feelings and experience and may help answer this question for you as a start... there is a lot more information out there but this would be a good place to start.

http://www.rebeccahawkes.com/


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## Lazurii (Apr 1, 2011)

If it's ethical to donate my genetic material and it's ethical to offer my body as an incubator, why is it not okay to offer the two together?


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## Mom31 (Jun 11, 2011)

I guess that is the question you need to ask yourself. I do not support donating genetic material. If you could have them get you an embryo- I would be ok with that. Have you considered doing that? I know that is quite costly.

How will you feel if you do this and then they get pregnant? You said she is younger then you right? She has most likely 15 years of fertility left.... I don't remember if you said there was something diagnosed that made her unable to have kids? Has she had her tubes tied or has he had a vasectomy?

In my case my adoptive parents tried for 8 years to get pregnant and waited on an adoption list for 5 years( this was 70s) and then adopted me and got pregnant 3 months after they got me. My adoption was finalized 1 day before my mom gave birth to her son.

How would you feel about that? After going through all of that and then they get to have their own biological child after all?

There is so much to think about with this- and I just encourage you to seek out as many opinions and read as much research as you can. There is a lot out there if you seek it out and want it. Which is what you are doing here- but I would also talk to other birthmothers and read their blogs.... see what they have to say what their experience has been as well. I can link some for you if you like. There is a wide variety of experiences out there to read about....

And to answer your question- no it is not ethical in my book. But I am sure you can find people to agree with you. But since you asked... No I do not think it is.


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## Lazurii (Apr 1, 2011)

Mom31, due to complications in the c-section of her son she has had a complete hysterectomy.


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## erigeron (Oct 29, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lazurii*
> 
> If it's ethical to donate my genetic material and it's ethical to offer my body as an incubator, why is it not okay to offer the two together?


 The combination of the two is "donating" your child that you created. I don't have an issue with egg donation or surrogacy, but I think that placing your own child for adoption, particularly your child born of you and your husband (rather than, say, one conceived with your college boyfriend when you're 21 and not ready to settle down) and that you might otherwise raise yourselves, is different than egg donation. Like I said upthread, I think the issue is in terms of what is best for the child. Do you honestly think that it would be best for this child to be raised by your friends instead of you? I'm sure you think your friends are equally good parents as you, but do you really think it would be *preferable* for your child to be raised by them? And if not, do you think the situation is in that child's best interest?


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lazurii*
> 
> If it's ethical to donate my genetic material and it's ethical to offer my body as an incubator, why is it not okay to offer the two together?


Honestly, not at ALL trying to be hurtful, when I first read this sentence...the first question that pops into my head is "does this chick HAVE children!??" - but then, you do, two of them.

So I guess this thing that I feel is just inherent...this intense love and responsibility I felt for my children when they were born (even with my son's birth, which left me very depleted and very tired and sort of "out of it"...I never could have just handed him over to someone else) is not something everyone feels. I honestly cannot understand how a mother who already has children (so, who understands exactly what she is getting when she has a baby, knows about the cuteness of a two year old, this mindblowing intelligence and amazing mind of a four year old, etc etc) and who is in a stable, loving environment, could give up a baby that she made with her husband on purpose and grew in her womb for almost a year.....to be raised NOT far away, so she doesn't have constant, in your face reminders.....but near her, by someone she knows well. How can a loving, sane person do that without experiencing EXTREME emotional trauma??

I understand and praise you for your deep desire to heal a wound in your friend. I jsut feel like when you ask questions like the one above, you are being really naive. I understand not being immediately and deeply impacted and filled with love when you meet your babies...lots of women feel a delayed sense of intense connection with their babies. But you are already a mother...you know what comes after birth, after the first year, etc etc....I don't understand why you think it wouldn't be a big deal to separate yourself from that knowledge and give away a baby to this woman.

A baby is a chunk of you and a chunk of your beloved, mixed together and brought into the world. A purse or a lovely piece of art can be a gift, no matter how much you love them, they can be separated from you and you will be okay. But a baby? A baby is not a possession from which you can permanently sever ties. A baby, no matter how far away, no matter how deeply good your intentions, can NEVER truly be separated from you. That baby is a part of you and a part of your husband until the day you both draw your last breath and beyond...and then that baby grows up and has more babies...and for the rest of time, so long as the lineage of the child moves forward and the lineage of your own children does the same...your blood and that babies blood are linked. It's just what it is...and it's powerful. At least, to me it is.

Even in the shittiest of circumstances, where it's NOT the right time and the boyfriend is a douchebag who walked off when you got a positive pregnancy test and you're still in your freshman year of college and you would just be a crappy mom or whatever...EVEN THEN it's HEARTBREAKING to give up a baby.

I just can't imagine how damaging this could be for you. But maybe it wouldn't be. Maybe this is just where I am coming from. Maybe because I'm sitting here in the final days of my pregnancy, I have a skewed, hormonal idea of what this would be like for you....or, maybe where I am right now gives me much deeper clarity into the issue, who knows.

Even more than the thought of giving up my baby and not mothering him/her....the thought of giving up my husbands baby, the child of my true love....the sibling of my precious children...I couldn't. I wouldn't.

Would this be an open situation? Would everyone in the family, all of your friends, etc know what was going on? What the situation truly was?


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *erigeron*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Yeah, I really can't imagine someone being happy that they were donated or gifted to someone who couldn't have their own children after a hysterectomy. OP - your friends have a child. They may be unable to have more children, but they have a child. It is not your responsibility to heal their wounds, as a friend you can merely help support them through it.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lazurii*
> 
> If it's ethical to donate my genetic material and it's ethical to offer my body as an incubator, why is it not okay to offer the two together?


Because children, babies, people are not donations. Do you think selling babies is OK?


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## Mom31 (Jun 11, 2011)

There is no reason to create a child- solely with the intention to give to someone else, when there are already children in need of homes that your friend could adopt- children who are in foster care- or have parents who can truly not raise them. This is very wrong to me on so many levels.

I wish you would look at the big picture. This cute baby you want to bring into the world is going to grow up- and someday the cute story you tell them about how you made them to give them to their adoptive mom- is going to not be so cute and sweet anymore....

*Adoption is supposed to be about the child- providing for the needs of a child that is not able to stay with its original family NOT about meeting the needs of someone who is not able to have more children.*


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## Mom31 (Jun 11, 2011)

Does your friend want a newborn baby? Or would an older child be okay?


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## Lazurii (Apr 1, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mom31*
> 
> Does your friend want a newborn baby? Or would an older child be okay?


Well, that's a highly personal question, isn't it?


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lazurii*
> 
> Well, that's a highly personal question, isn't it?


If you're thinking about offering to conceive and carry a baby for this person, you are going to have to ask, and answer, a large number of extremely personal questions.

You are contemplating offering this woman an incredibly personal favor. Shouldn't you be thinking, in detail, about what she needs and wants?


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## Lazurii (Apr 1, 2011)

I know what she wants, but it's not my place to answer personal questions about her and her wants. See the difference? Asking personal questions about me, a-okay. Asking them about her, when she's not even in the conversation, not okay.


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

Lazurii, this thread is overflowing with personal information about your friend already, so much that it astounds me that "is she willing to take an older child?" Is the line you will not cross. You were willing to talk about her hysterectomy - for most people, *that* would be the bridge too far. I think it's absolutely right to feel that her privacy is a concern, what I don't understand is how that concern didn't stop you four pages ago.

I do not think that having a baby for your friend is a good idea. A baby is not a pan of brownies. Your friend is going through some difficult processes, involving pain and grief that no effort can remove. This process sucks, but it's part of healing. If you want to help, bake some bread and keep the kleenex handy. Write a prayer for her peace and healing and send it in a card. Help her open mail when Christmas letters come in from people who talk about getting pregnant at the drop of a hat. Wish her the best in her adoption process. Remember that whatever you do in bed with your husband is about you and him, not you and her.


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## erigeron (Oct 29, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mom31*
> 
> *Adoption is supposed to be about the child- providing for the needs of a child that is not able to stay with its original family NOT about meeting the needs of someone who is not able to have more children.*












Lazurii, can you put yourself in the shoes of this hypothetical child? Can you honestly say that this would be in his or her best interests? Because the child is a vitally important player in this, and can't speak for him or herself.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Given that you said earlier that you haven't even brought up this idea of yours to her yet, I don't see how YOU can possibly know "what she wants" in this situation. What people say they want in theory vs. a specific situation is often very different. Lots of people are open to adoption, esp. a healthy newborn. Most will not want to adopt a baby from a close friend by friend and husband specifically "for" them. We've come a long way in removing the squick from adoption but I do think that will be disturbing for many people. And really, asking if someone wants to adopt a newborn vs. older child is "too personal" but you discussing her infertility and feelings online and how weirded out you would be using her husband's sperm to conceive a child isn't? I'd be willing to bet that your friend might be less open to your idea of saving her from the pain of secondary infertility by giving her one of your children than you think she might be. But really? It's between the four of you. It will impact more people than that (extended family, your current children, your friendship, their extended family, their child) but since you don't seem willing to even acknowledge that aspect and are concentrating on biology, it doesn't matter. Legally, what you propose is probably fine. Just don't not expect a bit of weirdedoutness from other people about it


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## lauren (Nov 20, 2001)

It is perhaps a valid question about an older child; perhaps you could gift them with one of your older children?


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lauren*
> 
> It is perhaps a valid question about an older child; perhaps you could gift them with one of your older children?


^At first glance, a truly wicked, stinging thing to say....but if you really examine the thought, I think it's what a lot of us (well, at lease me!) were trying to say.

OP, look at one of your existing two children. Now imagine giving one of them away as a gift, to a friend who is unable to conceive on her own. Couldn't do it, could you? Now, imagine that it is going to be any different to make a baby with your husband and give that baby away....it's not going to be any different to you...and because this baby is staying "in your circle", it may take a while....days, weeks+ for it to sink in, but I think it's going to.

The baby you make with your spouse would not be "genetic material" to you, in the end, any more than you would call one of your existing children your "genetic material". Seriously. Look at your daughter and say the words "There is my genetic material playing on the floor, what's so wrong with giving her away!" - she's not yours because you have had the chance to know her....she's yours because she has belonged to you since the first time you heard her little heart beat, isn't that right?

My fear is that you would trick yourself into believing this would get easier and easier to "get over" with time....so you would ignore the screaming voice inside of you and give the baby to your friend even thought it was really tearing you up inside to do so. Can you imagine watching your baby growing up as your friends child? That is the stuff of nightmares, right there. I can't imagine.


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## pumpkingirl71 (Jul 12, 2005)

Here is the thing that bothers me. I could imagine watching my biological child growing up as my friend's child. That was before I adopted. Now that I am an adoptive parent, I know that emotions run crazy on all sides of the triad. For me, it isn't about the "giving away." I am not sure if I think that is ethical, but not all adopted children feel the sense of loss others are concerned about. What concerns me it that intentionally bringing a child the world for this purpose is creating an emotional mine field for two families.

Maybe I am adding nothing new to the discussion. Maybe emotions run hot because of the genetic link, I don't know.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *BroodyWoodsgal*
> 
> ^At first glance, a truly wicked, stinging thing to say....but if you really examine the thought, I think it's what a lot of us (well, at lease me!) were trying to say.
> 
> . Can you imagine watching your baby growing up as your friends child? That is the stuff of nightmares, right there. I can't imagine.


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## Mom31 (Jun 11, 2011)

I was going to link a blog post but think I will pm it directly with the OP. If you are interested in reading it the Title is

*Things I wish I had known when I was considering adoption....*

and is written by a birthmother. You can PM me for the link.

*2. I wish I'd known that the child will probably not be grateful to have been relinquished*. Most adoptees report feeling abandoned by their first mothers. While they may be glad to have been adopted, they are most definitely not happy to have been relinquished. (In other words, they see their adoption as two separate events: being given up and being taken in. The second is warm and fuzzy, while the first is full of hurt.) It's very hard to know that the most painful choice you make for your child might not even be appreciated by them. There are no guarantees that your child will love you for what you've done. Can you live with that? Don't fall into the "martyr" mindset that you are doing something beautiful and noble for your child - you might be disappointed if the eventual adult doesn't see it that way.

This is an excerpt. This also starts to answer your question Smithie.


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## tiffani (May 17, 2002)

I think this is a really nice thought that you've had, but if you haven't had any experience with adoption, you might not be aware of how painful it can be for everyone involved. I hope that you take all of these words to heart, and do a lot more research on the feelings of adult adoptees -- adoption ethics also come into play here, beyond just figuring out the logistics of the thing... There are certain romantic notions we are fed about adoption, but one has to look deeper, to what each situation really means. This situation, like others have mentioned, can sound very loving and giving and "normal" in this era of surrogacy and IVF and egg and sperm donation, etc, but it's very true, that creating a person to give as a gift just isn't ok on any level. It's a lovely thought, but listen to the pain that adults who have been separated from their birth mothers have to deal with -- just because not every adoptee feels the pain consciously, doesn't mean that it isn't in there somewhere, or that you should roll the dice with how this person you're considering creating might someday feel about it....

There are so many ways you can support your friend in their quest to add to their family -- she's lucky to have a friend like you. hugs.


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## tiffani (May 17, 2002)

didn't mean to imply that all adoptees are walking around in pain, or are unaware of their own pain -- some adoptees seem to have no issues whatsoever with their family circumstance, and certainly how we walk our children through it makes a huge difference, but the odds of the child, in this case, having painful feelings about all of this is pretty high, in my educated opinion.... just wanting to clarify so the conversation doesn't veer off the rails because of my statement, lol...


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

n/m


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## LessTraveledBy (Feb 9, 2005)

There is also a huge difference between "I knew I could not raise you, so because I loved you, I chose to find you a family who could" and "I loved my friend so much that I purposefully created you to gift to her." The first can be all about the baby, the second cannot.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LessTraveledBy*
> 
> There is also a huge difference between "I knew I could not raise you, so because I loved you, I chose to find you a family who could" and "I loved my friend so much that I purposefully created you to gift to her." The first can be all about the baby, the second cannot.


SO vitally important to consider! I was just coming here to say this...but you said it in far fewer words than I would have used, hahahahah.

OP in a "typical" adoption situation, there is a birth mother who finds out she is having a baby and for whatever set of reasons, sometimes complicated and sometimes simple, she cannot in good conscience keep the baby because she feels deeply that her situation is shitty and cannot be made good for a child.

Looking a 17, 18+ year old in his/her puzzled face as they say "why??" is probably a bit easier when you can say "I was alone, I had nobody. I had no money, I was barely making ends meet. I knew you would have such a hard, hard life with me...I was just in a different place then and would have been such a terrible mother. Then there were these lovely people, they longed for a baby of their own and they were so nice. I met with them and I knew they would have the money to feed you good food and that the woman would be able to stay home with you and give you all her time and love and that she would be patient with you and would bake cookies and be such a good mom...I felt like I had to give you a shot at a better life than the one I had waiting for you if I kept you. I loved you then, I loved you when I met you face to face...and I love you now. I will always carry a sadness in me for having given you to another woman to raise...but I did it because I truly thought it was best for you" - That's pretty fucking compelling. A kid in his/her late teens can grasp this...even if it doesn't heal their hurt or really satisfy their sense of wondering how their life may have been different...at least they can see the sense in "I didn't make you on purpose, you were a surprise...I wasn't ready, MY BABY DESERVED BETTER THAN I COULD GIVE.

But consider this situation. So, you are going to get pregnant. Everyone in your life is going to know what's going on....both sets of grandparents, all the aunts and uncles and cousins....your kids are going to have to know, because, um, wow what a mind-job that would be, if you didn't tell them and then just didn't have a baby at the end of your pregnancy.....so, from the get go, EVERYONE in this kids life is in cahoots...has formed a FORCED (by you) conspiracy to keep this information from your/your friends baby, in order to wait for the "right time" to reveal this information.....

But when is the "right time"?? Not that YOU would get to decide that. Not your kid, after all, right? You reveal this too soon and you will turn this kids life on it's end...TOTALLY mess the kid up in his/her path to discovering his/her identity and place in the world. But...if you wait to long....then it's "Wait, are you fucking serious....ALL THIS TIME Auntie Lazuri was my real mother? EVERYONE around me has known this about me and never said anything and just let me believe this lie?" So then the kid is looking at you with that puzzled look, saying "why??" and what comes out of your mouth??

Not some super compelling story of "my baby was too beautiful and too precious to me to be raised in my situation...so I found better, because you deserved better" - no, this kid doesn't get that. This kid gets "Yeah, we had a couple of babies already, but your mom only had one and couldn't have more on her own and didn't have the money really to adopt...so your birth father and I, Uncle Lazuri, agreed to make you for them because we knew that they would be great parents, had everything they needed to care for you and would love you so much".

Kid: "But didn't you love me?"

You: "Well yes of course and we were so sad to give you away....but we did, even though we didn't have to, because while we did love you, we loved our friends too, so much....so we were able to turn off our love for you just enough to make it bearable to give you away...not for a better life, but to give my friend a better life."

^This last part is obviously not what you would actually say, but I don't think there is anything you COULD say that wouldn't end up sounding exactly like that.

I think if I had been told this kind of thing as a teenager, I would have been really pissed off.

I think that even as much as I'm concerned about how this would effect you and your husband....now that I'm thinking of how this could truly effect the baby, I'm pretty sure this is a terrible, terrible idea. Not to mention that it's kind of selfish to drag the rest of your family into this. Your parents are grandparents, but have to act like their not and are forced to hide this and their deep love for the child? Your children are aware of some weird, murky situation involving this baby....but what? How many times, with you hugely pregnant in the grocery store or wherever, would some stranger say to your kid "Oooo, you're going to be a big sister soon, huh!?? How EXCITING!" - how do you handle that with young kids?

I think this is a recipe for disaster. I think you handle this in an open, truthful way and you hurt people and drag your extended family into a hurtful situation...or you handle this with lies and deceit (Oh, I'm just acting as a surrogate for her) and you kick that can down the road....you make it hurtful and terrible later on, instead of now and all along.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

It is perhaps a valid question about an older child; perhaps you could gift them with one of your older children?

This is a compelling point if your ideology tells you that it's shared genes that create the parent/child bond, rather than the experiences of living together in a parent/child relationship. If you don't think that shared genes are a vital element in the parent/child relationship, then it's pretty much just hostile nonsense.

But Lazuri, pumpkingirl does raise a very important issue. Since you and your friend live close together, an adoption plan would drag both extended families into the decision on some level. You may be fine adopting out a baby. She may be fine with an open adoption where she sees the birthparents a lot. But if either of your husbands, any of your parents, or any of the kids turns out at some point to have a major problem with it (and that's a lot of potential actors to take the starring role in the Who-Is-Baby's-Mama-Drama!), both of your families could be negatively affected.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smithie*
> 
> It is perhaps a valid question about an older child; perhaps you could gift them with one of your older children? This is a compelling point if your ideology tells you that it's shared genes that create the parent/child bond, rather than the experiences of living together in a parent/child relationship. If you don't think that shared genes are a vital element in the parent/child relationship, then it's pretty much just hostile nonsense.


It's really not 'just hostile nonsense' Smithie. Adopted children, even if they are placed at minutes old, have a history with their first family. Yes genetics do play a role, much as you'd like to deny it. A child conceived using donor eggs/sperm might wonder about their biological relations as well - but would hopefully be told about the donor material in a sensitive way. Adopted children are different - they were born to another family, and relinquished (for an infinite number of reasons). Parental bonds are most certainly formed between the adoptee and the adoptive parents - but it's not possible to just pretend the child's first family just simply doesn't exist. Even the most amazing parental relationship with adoptive patents does not erase their past, or their first family. You can't change a persons history.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smithie*
> 
> It is perhaps a valid question about an older child; perhaps you could gift them with one of your older children?
> 
> This is a compelling point if your ideology tells you that it's shared genes that create the parent/child bond, rather than the experiences of living together in a parent/child relationship. If you don't think that shared genes are a vital element in the parent/child relationship, then it's pretty much just hostile nonsense.


Unfortunately for your viewpoint, what the parents think (birth or adoptive) doesn't mean the adoptee will feel the same way. Nor does it guarantee that anyone's feelings and/or "ideology" won't shift over time with life events. Boxing people in, and demanding that they decide between either or, and thinking that it's just all a matter of ideology? Now *that* is hostile nonsense.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

I wasn't saying that the viewpoint that sharing genes creates a parent/child bond in the absence of any other connection is nonsense. Or hostile. But Lazurii doesn't subscribe to that viewpoint, and this constant stream of "but it's YOUR baby! YOUR baby! Because DNA! You could grow a baby in your womb and be a surrogate, that's fine, but giving away a baby you share genes with is like giving away your five-year-old!" is disrespectful. It is both hostile and nonsensical to make an argument to a person that is based on an ideological premise you don't they don't accept.

Several people, including Tigerchild just now, and pumpkingirl earlier, have made much more useful points - what Lazurii feels now many change, and what her extended family and the extended adoptive family and the adopted child and all of the biokids involved feel may not match the way she feels. The situation she's proposing to facilitate would be emotionally complex in all likelihood. I don't think that's a sufficient reason for a child not to be born, but that's just my opinion.


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## Mom31 (Jun 11, 2011)

Smithie... please read this.

http://vsn.org/trauma.html

There is a lot of information available to help you better understand the needs of your children- if you seek it out and choose to educate yourself so you can best support them.

Here are some stats.


In a study of American adolescents, the Search Institute found that *72 percent* of adopted adolescents wanted to know why they were adopted, *65 percent* wanted to meet their birth parents, and *94 percent* wanted to know which birth parent they looked like. _(American Adoption Congress, 1996)_
The psychological literature has established that the desire of 60 to 90 percent of adoptees wanting to obtain identifying information regarding their biological parents is a *normative aspect* of being adopted. _(American Adoption Congress, 1996)_
 
*What are the Attitudes of Triad Members Towards Searching?*


Sachdev's 1991 study found that a *substantial majority* of birth mothers (85.5%) and adoptees (81.1%) supported access by adult adoptees to identifying information about their birth parents. _(CWLA, 1998)_


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

There is a lot of information available to help you better understand the needs of your children- if you seek it out and choose to educate yourself so you can best support them.

Christians say the same kind of thing when they give me their literature. "If only you really wanted what was best for your children, if only you chose to educate yourself, you'd believe as I do!"









The hell of it is, right now you're not saying anything I disagree with. Of course children want to know why they were adopted. Of course they want to know what their birth parents looked like (and which one they take after). Of course many want to meet their birth parents (I think that number will rise higher than 65% in the next generation). OF COURSE most adult adoptees think they should have the right to access their birthparents' information! OF COURSE most birthparents would welcome a change to see how the kid turned out, and maybe build a relationship with them!

What that shows is that information about their biological origins (or endpoints) is incredibly compelling to most people. You want to know your birthparents. You want to know your birthchildren. Why do you think I don't recognize this? Simply because I distinguish it from the relationships created through decades of lived experience?

Unless I've misread you, you object strongly to the idea of Lazurii conceiving a child that she intends to be adopted. Even though the plan she has in mind is the most open adoption imaginable, you think that the child would be somehow injured by being raised in an adoptive family. That's where we part ways on the issue.


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## lauren (Nov 20, 2001)

So I wish to just offer a few words. I wrote my suggestion on day 6 of having three children at the same time with chicken pox. So I do apologize if the words were poorly chosen and if I, especially as a moderator, was not entirely supportive. I guess I am human too (especially under these conditions!)

I will say, though, that I do hold a belief system that is borne of many, many years of life experience, and many, many relationships with members of all sides of the triad. That belief system is that a baby begins the bonding process in utero. S/he learns the sounds of the mother's body, her voice, her taste, the way she moves her body, the rhythms. The baby's nervous system is built in utero; the "wiring" occurs in synch with the mom and in response to her chemical and physiological environment. At birth, the baby is very familiar with mama and finds her quite consonant with life up until that moment. There is already attachment, begun when the baby was able to experience sensations. All the studies on brain development and brain chemistry show that there is already a register of "shock" to the system when that familiar equilibrium is disturbed after birth, through separation from the mother or other major stressors.

And sometimes it is necessary that a baby be separated and experience this. In some situations it is not. But it is a disturbance. It is not necessarily any less of a disturbance than it would be for an older child who has had more years with the family. One never knows which babies and children will experience things in which way.

Some babies & children are incredibly resilient. Some aren't very resilient at all. There is no test to see which type of baby you have on hand.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

I agree that separation from the women who bore you is a shock to the system of an infant. I think that a baby gestated by a surrogate has the same potential to experience that shock as a baby who is gestated by their genetic mother. But the same thing that an older child experiences? Not on your life. You can call both separations a loss, and address both losses with respect, without equating an infant given out of loving hands into loving hands shortly after its birth with a neglected five-year-old dragged off by the cops as his mother screams and cries for him. I know which kid I'd rather be.

Edited to add: And I'd rather be either of them than never exist at all.


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## lauren (Nov 20, 2001)

It's alright if we (many of us) disagree on this point. There are many in the field that believe many different views.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Smithie*
> 
> Edited to add: And I'd rather be either of them than never exist at all.


Are you saying that every fertile woman should feel guilty over every period she has because of the loss of the existence of the child that might have been conceived? I find that point of view terrifying in its implications (and yes, I know there are people out there that feel it).


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## pumpkingirl71 (Jul 12, 2005)

I read Smittie's words as regards to an already existing pregnancy.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tigerchild*
> 
> Are you saying that every fertile woman should feel guilty over every period she has because of the loss of the existence of the child that might have been conceived? I find that point of view terrifying in its implications (and yes, I know there are people out there that feel it).


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

Huh? No, of course not. Nobody is obliged to make babies, ever, for any reason.

It's the "it's not fair to bring a child into the world in these circumstances!" rhetoric that bothers me. That seems like a more appropriate position to take when the parents have too many mouths to feed already and no help is forthcoming, when the fetus has been determined to carry a dread disease that will make its life short and painful, etc. etc. There are situations where it does seem unfair to me to begin a life that will be full of suffering. But adoption doesn't fall into that category.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

I suspect that the reason why people are encouraging the OP to be cautious is that what the OP is proposing is creating a child for the purpose of adoption, NOT creating a child through surrogacy. Placing a child for adoption, no matter how open or how loving or how child-focused everyone is creates a loss, a wound of sorts, for that child. Now, depending on the child that loss might be HUGE and cause them many problems in life, or it might be so small that they hardly even think about it. I doubt any (or to avoid an absolute, i'll say i doubt many) adoptees feel NO loss at all. So you are creating a child who will be hurt by your decision. Yes, i suppose you could say "but the child would not have been created otherwise!" and i guess you have a point. It still doesnt seem like the best solution to the OPs friend's infertility.

So...the OP would not be a surrogate, no matter how much one can claim "well she is a surrogate only she is also the egg donor and the husband is the sperm donor!"...because frankly, she could get pg tomorrow by her husband on accident, and THAT wouldnt be a surro baby. Is it only because she would say "ok we're trying for John and Sally tonight! lets get pg!" that makes the child born of both of them, full sib to their own children, created within their marriage NOT their child? That seems to be a very fine line. Legally, their situation would be VERY different than most surrogacy arrangements, and i doubt they would find a reputable surro agency/lawyer who would touch this with a ten foot pole. At least in a gestational surrogacy the OPs friends would be protected, and the OP would NOT be able to keep the child if she decided to, but in this situation the OP would have all the rights as any other mother contemplating adoption.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

At least in a gestational surrogacy the OPs friends would be protected, and the OP would NOT be able to keep the child if she decided to, but in this situation the OP would have all the rights as any other mother contemplating adoption.

Honestly, that's one of the things that squicks me the most about gestational surrogacy. We've created an enforceable legal arrangement wherein a woman can carry a baby for nine months, want to keep it, and have it forcibly taken away from her. Inclined as I am towards parenthood as a role that develops through the experience of nurturing a child rather than a genetic gotcha, I'm more comfortable when surrogate mothers have the same rights as other birthmothers. I don't think anybody, including people who have donated genetic material to the effort, should be entitled to legal certainty about what a woman who is planning to place her baby will actually do when the baby comes.


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## t2009 (Sep 1, 2009)

I think all the comments I've ready (skimmed a couple pages in there) cautioning OP make sense from an ethical standpoint.

To simplify it, I'd think about the number of lives implicated in each scenario, and what the possible negative outcomes could be for each person. To my mind, only the first two are ethically responsible choices.

1. If your friend & her husband remain childless, they are negatively affected but only they bear the pain.

2. If they adopt a child who needs a home, all three will face challenges, but the outcome is potentially positive for all three.

3. If they find a surrogate (someone other than OP) with a stranger's egg, you have brought in a total stranger (or possibly 2) into the equation. There are definite possible negative outcomes for any stranger involved (even if "just" donating an egg). For these reasons I do not support IVF or surrogacy.

4. If you, OP, act as surrogate with a strangers genetic material, then you friend is likewise dragging you into their situation. It is fundamentally not fair or ethical to accept your offer to act as surrogate given the emotional & physical demands that would be put upon you. It would be better that they remain childless, as painful as that may be for them. This doesn't address the use of a stranger's genetic material, which I believe also raises ethical issues.

5. If OP acts as surrogate with your own egg, particularly if with your husband's sperm, then this is likely the worse possible outcome. It would carry the potential to negatively impact you, your husband, the child to be given to your friend, and your own child/ren. To pull all of you into their infertility would be a hugely unethical act, not to mention simply selfish & unkind from a friend-to-friend perspective.

I would strongly caution against your getting involved. Sorry if this all sounds harsh. But I think if you look at it simply from the perspective of how many people are involved & who these people are, it can make the decision less mysterious.


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## Mom31 (Jun 11, 2011)

T2009- the couple already has a child. They are not childless- which just makes this whole idea even more complicated.


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## t2009 (Sep 1, 2009)

Oops. Totally misread that from the first post! I still think I'd stand by most of my previous post. Of course, it adds another layer of effects, but I still think there are two basically ethical options for OP's friend. Adopting a child who needs a home & who could be integrated into the family could be a wonderful choice. DH's family is mixed bio & adopted children & it's challenging at times (or was in the past, rarely so now) but the siblings are all very close.

Adoption fees would be nothing compared to the emotional costs on everyone together if they go with any other option. OP, I really like the other suggestions you've gotten to help fundraise for your friend to raise the money to pay for the adoption fees. A close friend of my SIL did just that & all her friends helped out.


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## lauren (Nov 20, 2001)

moving to Parenting


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## chiefmir (Apr 16, 2010)

I've read all the previous posts, and was so interested in all the dissenting opinions.

I just wanted to chime in as a mom who previously suffered from secondary infertility and who has a friend who made an offer to carry a child for us.

My DH and I had one daughter who was conceived the old fashioned way after about 6 months of trying. Had no idea that TTC #2 would be so grueling, expensive, miserable... you pick your horrifying adjective. almost 2 years later, we'd been though 17 cycles of ART, including about 12 IUIs, clomid, multiple injectible medications, one cancelled IVF, one failed IVF, 3 miscarriages, and a disrupted domestic adoption (we went across the country to get the newborn girl, met her and the mother in the hospital a 3 hours post- delivery and the mom decided to parent the next day). It was AWFUL. And NO better or easier because we had a child already... just different. While we were SO thankful for her and grateful that we were parents even if we were never able to conceive again, we also couldn't opt out of kid/baby related things in life to regroup and recover for a while when all the IF issues made it excruciating to be around our fertile friends.

Anyway, fast forward to my friend's offer. She had 3 kids already, close together, and had extremely easy, healthy pregnancies and deliveries. She offered- wholeheartedly from what I could tell- to be a surrogate for my DH and I if we needed. Happily for us, we actually concieved naturally the next month, but I felt SO WONDERFUL about her offer. The very idea that she'd consider it (and she is not, by any stretch, a "best friend") and to think that- when we had all but given up hope- there was an option (especially after losing so much money on IF treatment and the adoption process) was like an injection of optimism and hope.

That said, there is NO way I'd have considered it if she had wanted to have her own genetic child with her DH and then have me adopt it. I would still have been touched and moved by her offer, but it would have been a "no-brainer" that we would never have considered it for so many of the complicated and emotional reasons discussed above. I was lucky that DH and I both had functioning gametes and could have provided her with embryos to implant. Had my eggs been out of the picture, the only way we'd have gone forward would be with DH's sperm and donated eggs. If we were both unable to provide gametes, we'd have tried for embryo adoption.

I'd have been super confused and a bit put off if she'd wanted to bear us a child who was the genetic material of her and her DH... but no less touched by the offer. Just definitely NOT willing to take her up on it. FWIW, the surrogate, if embryos are implated, has minimal if any medication and prep to do. Especially if no eggs are being harvested from the potential adoptive mom (in which case the surrogate may take some meds to get their cycles in sinc so that embryos can be implanted at the right time without having to freeze them).


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