# Sexual Curiousity: What is Normal for 5-y-old?!



## Bisou

So my son has been having some issues with sexual curiosity, and I am not sure exactly if this is normal or not. I'd like to hear from other parents of kids 4-6 or so, particularly parents with 4-6 yo boys, about what their kids have done at this age.

Background info:

My son did have some abuse at age two that involved the genital area, but it seemed to be more physical abuse (meant to hurt him) than sexual, but I don't know for sure. This happened at a daycare and was possibly going on for a few weeks, though there was one incident that was serious and was what led to me discovering this abuse, reporting it, and obviously removing him from this daycare! I know he doesn't probably remember this, or it's at least stored away, but I know it's in his body and subconscious.

Preschool:

The first incidents of looking and touching started at a preschool when he was about 3 with other kids his age. The caregivers weren't apparently watching them closely enough, as the kids were going into the bathroom in groups of 3-4. My son told me that one child was directing the play by asking other kids, both boys and girls, to pull down their pants. Was concerned me about this was that my son said the other little boy was saying things about putting his mouth on other boys' penises and putting penises into bottoms, though I don't think any of these things were attempted. This didn't seem like normal curiosity, and I was worried that maybe this other boy was being abused himself. I talked to the director of the preschool immediately, and she made sure that the kids were no longer allowed to go to the bathroom in groups. I can't remember exactly, but I think this happened once or twice, and that was the end of it.

Kindergarten:

A few months into kindergarten, my son came home and said another little boy had been looking at his penis in the bathroom and asking my son to look at his penis, and that this happened a few times. It seems like it was looking and no touching. I figured this was fairly normal, but I talked to the other boy's mom (who was horrified!) and my son's teacher. She talked to both boys at school about keeping your body private, but the teacher said this is very normal also, and I agree.

A few weeks later my son told me that he pulled down the pants of one of the girls in his class and asked another girl to pull down her pants, and then he pulled his pants down.

Then my son told me he was in the bathroom with 5-6 kids, both boys and one girl, in the boys bathroom during recess, and that they were all pulling down their pants and looking at each other's penises. He also said that they were asking the girl to pull down her pants and trying to talk her into it. This made me a little more concerned because I didn't want the girl to feel like she was being coerced by 4-5 boys. I was also obviously concerned that the kids weren't being supervised, so I actually went to the principal about this one. My son's teacher took all of the kids mentioned and talked to them in a group, and she said all of the kids expressed shock and surprise about what my son had said, and said, "I DIDN'T DO THAT!" My son then told the teacher he had lied, and he doesn't really lie ever, and she talked to me about this when I came to get my son. This was sort of embarrassing as I made a big deal about it, but whatever. However, the incident with the two girls and my son pulling down the one girl's pants DID happen.

With Friend's Daughter:

Finally, a few nights ago I went to an indoor play place with my friend and her 7-year-old daughter. They are about two years apart as my son is five, so he's the younger one. This is a woman I really like because she's a single mom, like me, and our kids like each other, and we both have kids with behavioral issues, so we can really relate to each other. The kids had a great time playing, and we had a great time talking, but as we were leaving, my son said, "Mom, I am sorry, but I pulled down my pants and asked Alex to pull down her pants in the play structure." I told him that that was not ok, but I said thank you for telling me, and then emphasized that this behavior was not something he should be doing and could upset other kids' parents. He kept saying he was sorry.

My friend called me late that night and left a voicemail saying her daughter said the same thing my son had told me, and said, "I don't know what we are going to do about this, because this is not ok with me." She did say that my son asked her daughter to "touch his butt hole," but when I asked my son about this, he said he only asked her to touch his bottom on the side. I texted back the next morning and said it wasn't ok with me either, but that I think this is normal curiosity for kids, and that we should talk to them about it. I also called and left two voicemails saying I was happy to talk about the incident if she would like.

This has been a few days ago, and she has not responded to my voicemails or texts, and we usually talk and text a few times per day! She also sent me a text that she wouldn't be coming to my birthday party this weekend, which she had been planning to do. It looks like she is simply dumping me as a friend because of this, which I find a little shocking. After all, my son is only five. It's not like he's 12 and her daughter is 5 and he was molesting her. And there was no touching going on, just looking! While my son did ask her daughter to pull down her pants, she could have said no. It seems like her daughter participated willingly in what happened. I just don't quite get her reaction.

So, this is upsetting to me. On the one hand, I think my friend's reaction is a little over the top. My son is five; he's not a child molester. I think that his attitude is more of "This is funny. Ha ha ha. Touch my butt!" and I don't think it's sexual at all. I think to him it's simply curiosity and humor based.

I don't want him to feel shame, but I do want him to stop. It seems like he is a little fixated, and like he's not controlling himself well, even though he knows he should not be doing this. I have repeatedly emphasized to my son that I know he's curious, and that is normal, but that he must keep his body and other people's bodies private.

I am curious about whether other parents have had similar experiences with kids of this age repeatedly checking out other kids' bodies. Is this normal? Is it normal that he keeps doing it even when several people (me, teachers) have asked him to stop? What do you think?

To be clear, we have sought therapy for my son's issues, and my son has been in therapy since he was about 2 1/2. My son's therapist seems to think this is somewhat normal and just says to tell him his body is private, but I am concerned that this is now affecting my relationship with friends and his relationships with our friends too.


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## amyhulen

Please don't take this the wrong way as I mean NO offense in any way what so ever but if this were my child I would be seeking the advice of a professional to get to the bottom of the issue. Perhaps they would be able to more effectivly ask questions and figure out what is causing behaviour like this. Some of the things your mentioning are beyond normal and I am pretty open with my kids about this subject at age appropriate levels so this really isn't a squeamish topic for me. My 5 year old daughter had a friend who was curious and would act out some things behind closed doors when they were left to thier own devices but not to this degree and after talking to her and her mother about it the problem did clear up.

I wish you and your son well. As for your friend she may just need some time to clear up her thoughts, you are dealing with a pretty touchy subject even amongst friends.


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## Bisou

I have had my son in therapy for some time now, so we have sought advice/help about this, but his therapist doesn't seem to think it's a big deal, but it's obviously becoming a bigger deal for me.

I did do some reading in other online forums and saw parents posting, particularly about boys, that their kids were just obsessed with looking at and touching other kids' genitals. According to what's "normal childhood sexual development," touching and looking at other kids' genitals is normal at this age. I do think boys tend to do it more than girls since their genitals are more out there.

I am concerned though. What in particular strikes you as not normal? The amount of times this has happened? It wasn't him initiating this in several of the instances, but he has initiated this much more than I would like.


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## IntuitiveJamie

Gosh, it is so hard to say what is 'normal' and what is not. I have one child that in the summer, due to less clothes, is all about touching his self. I mean non stop. I also know my boys (5 and 3) have a mild curiosity about each others penis's that mostly arises in the bath tub. Obviously some curiosity and exploration is normal. But I definitely get red flags when I read your post and feel that the constant attention this is receiving from your son is possibly on the being an issue side. But since I don't have personal experience in my children acting/reacting the way your son is, it's hard for me to judge. So I mostly wanted to tell you about a book I know of. I have been meaning to get it for my children. I had it, but then gave it to a mama in need whose child was going through abuse issues and it helped clear some boundaries for her child again. It is an excellent book: http://www.amazon.com/Right-Touch-Read-Aloud-Prevent-Collection/dp/0935699104 In fact, I'm going to go reorder right now!

I also want to say to trust your own instinct. It is one thing to sort of wonder about something our kids do. But when it is raising alarm or concern on a consistent basis, then I really think you should listen to your own intuition. You don't normally feel this way about just any ol' thing your child does do you? So please listen to yourself, and if you feel the therapist is not listening to you, switch therapist.

I hope you have resolve soon.


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## Bisou

Thanks for the book suggestion. I will definitely check that out!

I did try to do some reading online and read some different postings on other parenting websites, and it seemed like LOTS of parents with five-year-old boys (that age and gender in particular!) were having this problem. I guess since there hasn't been really any touching it doesn't seem that extreme, but when it's upsetting other kids' parents, that makes it harder. I do think my friend is overreacting about her daughter, as there was no force (she pulled her own pants down willingly) and no touching, and my son is two years younger. I do think my son probably sees this as funny, because that would fit with his view of nakedness.

I have even read some articles/postings where parents thought that letting their kids explore sexuality with other kids was great (as long as it was mutual, not forced, with same age children) and should be allowed, but I don't think I'd feel comfortable with that! I don't think that teaches good boundaries, and you also never know if one child has been abused or would feel pressured or bad about it. Not a good idea, IMO. I also want my son to keep his body private, because if he's doing this sort of things with other kids, what would he think if an adult asked to see his penis or showed him their penis? I worry that it would just seem normal to him, like "Oh, I do this at school with my friends. This is ok!" That worries me too.

Switching to another therapist for my son is nearly impossible because our insurance is HORRIBLE about mental health (I can only see my therapist every 1-2 months!) and there are few options for kids, and I can't afford the $150 per session that's the going rate here, so I am kinda stuck in that respect.


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## Bisou

Ok, I just bought some books online!

Your Body Belongs to You by Spelman

The Right Touch by Kleven

I Said No! by King

It's Not the Stork by Harris.

The first three are about keeping your private areas private, and the last is just about bodies and sexuality, so I am thinking if he is curious he can look at a book rather than his friends' bodies. Hopefully this will help!


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## nextcommercial

If that were my son doing that, I'd be a complete wreck. It would not be OK with me either. I wouldn't want my daughter hanging out alone with your son.

HOWEVER, in reality, I think your son is normal and curious.

It probably is sexual when he wants to see his friend's butts. It's not just "funny". I say this because I was that kid when I was little too. I was always more interested in inappropriate things. I was always more sexually curious than other kids. I was the girl trying to get the other kids to pull their pants down. I wasn't a predator, or evil, or anything. Just very curious. I had a book about pilgrims when I was little, and it had a drawing of kids sitting naked in a big tub of water together. I would look at that page over and over again. When I was a young teen, I'd watch the scrambled sex channels for those tiny glimpses when it would unscramble for just a second. (as far as I can tell, I'm fairly normal as an adult)

I've been working with little kids since 1982. There's always a few kids who are like your son in every group. It's usually boys, but occasionally it's a girl. It's more than the typical "fart sound" behavior. It's normal exploration. But, it can get out of hand. You really have to be honest with yourself, and aware that he is interested in this.

I don't know that I would make a big deal out of this, and I don't think I would get counseling just yet. I think I'd find some books that you can read, and then keep the kids supervised. Don't make the kids feel like this is dirty, or nasty. It just leaves them with issues in 15 years. Just supervise, and make sure the teachers aren't letting a huge group of kids goof off in the bathroom together. Nothing good can come from a big group in the bathroom at the same time anyway. That's just asking for trouble.

Your son is not wrong or weird in any way. Just normal, but with a high curiosity right now. His friends probably are too, so they feed off of each other.


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## ~cassie

I have a 5 1/2 yr old boy and he has never done that, so to me, it is a little beyond what should be happening and I'd be worried. The fact that he has been repeatedly told would raise a flag for me. My son is all about his own penis but shows no interest in others aside from looking at his brother's in the bath every now and again.


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## Daffodil

My 5 year old DS doesn't seem to have any particular interest in his own genitals or anyone else's. As far as I know, he's never been involved in any incidents like the ones you mentioned. None of what you described strikes me as abnormal, though. (But I haven't been around a lot of 5 year olds and don't really know what's normal.)


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## Bisou

Thanks everyone for posting. I'd like to hear from other mamas who have (or have had) kids this age with this sort of curiosity, or not. It's hard to be clear that I don't want him to be doing this without being so intense that he won't tell me about it anymore. I have told him that it's normal to be curious, but that he should be keeping his body and others' bodies private. So far that's not working as well as I would like.


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## Drummer's Wife

I have three boys (ages 3, 5, and 7), and honestly, if my son were involved in all of these incidences, I would be very concerned. I'm glad he is in therapy, b/c with what happened to him when he was 2, he has a higher risk of inappropriate behavior as he gets older. Other than continuing to do what you are doing talking to him and reading the books you've ordered (and continuous counseling), I'm not sure what else I'd suggest. It's great that he shares with you what goes on, though, a lot of kids wouldn't - and I would of course disapprove of what has gone on, but w/o any shame b/c otherwise he might keep it all to himself.

I would give your friend some time and space; I'm also a mother of a little girl, and I might not want to hang out or put her in those situations, either. Hopefully she comes around, eventually, and sees that your DS has (hopefully) stopped participating in activities that involve other people's private parts.


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## APToddlerMama

I just replied to you in another thread, but then saw this in the new posts and it caught my eye. Having worked professionally with kids who have experienced abuse and have also been perpetrators (I'm not calling your son one by any means... but that is what happens when curiousity continues and continues or starts pushing the boundaries on typical exploration.), I would be very very alarmed by this. It is not uncommon for children who have been sexually abused to act out sexually. This sounds above and beyond typical 5 year old curiousity. It is ongoing and pushes the boundaries of curiousity pretty far, in my opinion. Is there any way at all for you to work with a therapist who specializes in sexual abuse? They would likely know a great deal about PTSD and even EMDR since the two frequently go hand in hand. It isn't going to get easier as time goes by, so I'd try my hardest to see someone really *good*. Some therapists are practically useless. Certain places have sliding fee scales and payment plans. If you think long term, even spending 150 a session for six months or a year is probably worth it if it means that your son can heal. I know this is a ton for anyone, especially raising him yourself, so it might not be do-able. But, if you look at it against the sleep you lose over this, productivity at work, cost of meds, etc, it could really end up being a wash cost wise, and certainly much more positive in terms of his behaviors. Good luck mama...


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## broodymama

DS1 is 6 now and has still not developed modesty about his body (will happily streak through the house when he's getting ready for a shower) but doesn't pay attention to his sisters' bodies, and they are frequently unclothed and until recently all bathed together. The only time he asks anything about his sisters' genitalia is to make sure the 2 year old is wearing a diaper under her nightgown when she's playing on his bed, since she's not yet potty trained but has a habit of stripping off her diaper.


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## ~cassie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bisou*
> 
> Thanks everyone for posting. I'd like to hear from other mamas who have (or have had) kids this age with this sort of curiosity, or not. It's hard to be clear that I don't want him to be doing this without being so intense that he won't tell me about it anymore. I have told him that it's normal to be curious, but that he should be keeping his body and others' bodies private. So far that's not working as well as I would like.


My child isn't like this, but I was, and that is what worries me. I had "sex" at 7 yrs old b/c I was so curious. Now this 'sex' involved a male friend sticking his penis in my vagina for a few seconds and that was it. But still, that shouldn't be happening at that age. I wasn't abused either, just watched too much adult tv thanks to an older sister.


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## PlayaMama

my ds does not do any of these sorts of things.

if i was the other mom, i'm sorry, i would not want my child hanging out with someone that put her in those situations. absolutely not. and sure, my dd could have said no but i wouldn't want the pressure there in the first place, that's just unfair to her and i'm sure your friend just wants to protect her dd from any sort of situation like that.

i think that what is troubling is that you seemed to explain it away as "normal curiosity for kids" when you know that your ds's history is anything but normal.even if this were the sort of things that other kids were doing (and it very well may be) because of your ds's history it is not normal. if i were your friend, i would be worried that you did not take it as seriously as i did.

i'm so so sorry mama. my heart breaks for you and your little guy.


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## Sfcmama

"normal" or not doesn't seem to be as important as if it's problematic in your lives, which it sounds like it is. You mentioned your DS has behavioral difficulties - are you saying these are separate from the sexual play/curiosity? Maybe these behavioral difficulties are impacting the way he participates in these social situations and/or how he responds to the consequences/reactions...? Maybe he is more vulnerable to act out in these ways to compensate?

My heart goes out to you, mama. I don't think anyone wants to villanize your DS, but no one wants to see any more hardship for you, your ds or your social network!
Hugs!


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## treeoflife3

I was a VERY sexual kid but as far as I know, I was never sexually abused (there was abuse in my life but I remember nothing towards me but who can say if I simply just don't remember? One of my sexual curiosities was in fact sexual abuse and I honestly have no idea why.) I knew quite a few other very sexually curious children as well. We talked about sex a lot and when I was about 8 ( couple years older) I allowed a boy a year or two younger to touch his bare penis to my butt for a few seconds. I also allowed my year younger cousin lay on top of me, both of us naked sometime around the same age.

I don't know if I was normal although I knew a handful of other kids similar to me, however even if I was normal, I am concerned first by the fact that everything started with physical painful abuse to the genitals. I honestly don't know much about sexual abuse but my immediate reaction is abuse to the genitals meant to harm purposely rather than sexual abuse that might hurt physically along the way but not intentially (well as unintentially as any abuse can possibly be not harmful... ) could leave a more lasting effect.

My second concern is his continuation of doing things and being involved with things when he is in therapy for it and talks about it with you. He is open enough to apologize after the fact but still continues to do it. I know at that age, I didn't talk about it with adults at all and instinctively felt I needed to lie. I was caught in some things (passing drawings of naked people with my cousin in church for instance) but otherwise didn't willingly share info although I never had the kind of focus your son does. Granted children aren't always great at stopping themselves and not all children lie to the degree other children do but from my own experiences it seems unusual. None of the other children I knew talked about it with adults as far as I knew either. Parents were never calling the school or my mom about me at least.

I think it is great he is in therapy and I think it is great you are getting him books to help reinforce the privacy ideas as well as give him a sexual curiosity outlet however regardless of how normal he might be in a group of non abused children, it could very well NOT be normal for him specifically due to his history and I feel because of that, it might not be best to compare him to other children. I think at the very least his therapist should take your concerns more seriously and not continue to only offer on solution of just telling him that bodies are private.


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## Bisou

I guess my reasoning for wondering about this being normal is the following:

1) Other kids (boys) my son's age are doing this at school, and his kindergarten teacher says this happens every year. She's been teaching for 30 years and says it's very normal at this age.

2) My son's therapist also thinks it's normal for this age and seemed completely unconcerned about it.

3) If you Google "childhood sexual development," what he is doing sounds normal, except that it says it's normal if they are doing it the same amount as other kids (which I am not sure about) and if there is no force or coercion involved. I guess in the incident where he pulled down the other girl's pants, that wasn't giving her a chance to say yes or no, so that does concern me.

Many of you have multiple children and talked about your kids having mild curiosity, but bathing with siblings. My son has no siblings and is only around me, so I wonder if that makes him more curious about other kids' bodies. He didn't show any signs of this behavior until the other kid at his preschool was trying to get all the kids to take off their clothes in the bathroom, but since then he has definitely been more curious.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PlayaMama*
> 
> my ds does not do any of these sorts of things.
> 
> if i was the other mom, i'm sorry, i would not want my child hanging out with someone that put her in those situations. absolutely not. and sure, my dd could have said no but i wouldn't want the pressure there in the first place, that's just unfair to her and i'm sure your friend just wants to protect her dd from any sort of situation like that.
> 
> i think that what is troubling is that you seemed to explain it away as "normal curiosity for kids" when you know that your ds's history is anything but normal.even if this were the sort of things that other kids were doing (and it very well may be) because of your ds's history it is not normal. if i were your friend, i would be worried that you did not take it as seriously as i did.
> 
> i'm so so sorry mama. my heart breaks for you and your little guy.


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## ~PurityLake~

If I were your friend, I would have cut off all contact between my daughter and your son, as well. This would not be okay with me in the least. I think your son's behavior exceeds normal curiosity due to the sexual abuse he suffered. I'm glad he's in therapy for this, but it sounds like he still is greatly affected by the abuse he suffered. It sounds almost obsessive on his part.


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## littlest birds

No, not really in the range of normal IME. I think with his history also you should be pretty harsh about what normal is and is not. The boundaries should be very clearly delineated without gray areas. The issue is not shame of sexuality but respect of others. These are the rules of society and he will be best off if he learns them well and learns them to be non-negotiable. I'd personally be way less worried about him maturing to be timid about sexuality with some hangups than that he will progress to being an abuser of others. I hope you read those books with your ds--not just let him read them himself. And I would definitely talk about how respecting those boundaries is the only way to keep friends. He just lost one. Can he learn from that that what he is doing is wrong? Can you be clear with him that it is wrong?

I think for the friendship and any other future relationship it is essential that you not claim that what your ds did is normal.

Saying that makes it sound like you will not be active in changing anything. That would be a huge problem for me if I were the friend. I personally think that is why she dropped you. While you said it wasn't okay, you also wrote it off by suggesting it was normal. If you'd taken it seriously, then you might have suggested a strategy like no unsupervised play at all and told her about the abuse and all that you are doing to help him heal. She would then be closer to you just knowing your sorrows. She would know that you are facing something difficult and feel sympathy for you and your ds and that you are making an effort to help her protect her daughter by helping her be informed.

But still she may not be close enough/brave enough/open enough to face having a friend with these kind of problems and make the extra effort she would have to make to monitor the friendship for her daughter.


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## zinemama

Neither of my sons did anything like this at that age.

I would find this concerning, both in light of his past history, and even more so, in view of the fact that he lied about other kids doing it (the bathroom incident). To me, the lying indicates that he knows quite well that this behavior isn't right. Yet he continues to do it. Given all this, I wouldn't be comfortable with a therapist who takes the position that this is normal behavior. Asking questions is normal, as is some degree of "playing doctor." But that usually happens earlier than 5. By 5 no kid I knew was doing this - and again, the incident with the lying suggests that your son is aware of what's appropriate. Yet, for whatever reason, he's continuing to do it. Which, to me, would be worrisome.

In your friend's place, I would be uncomfortable having my daughter around your son.


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## Tjej

You also only know what your son told you happened. You didn't talk in detail with your friend, and who knows if her daughter even told her everything that happened. Your friend has every right to be very upset with you for seeming to not take this seriously.

I agree that some exploration is normal in kids, however the way this is playing out does not seem normal to me.

Tjej


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## Storm Bride

I find "normal" to be a very slippery term in this area. Your son's behaviour doesn't sound all that out there to me, honestly. It's definitely not okay, especially the pulling down the other girl's pants. However, without the abuse when he was little, this wouldn't even raise flags for me. I'd just see it as something to continue working on, as so many things are. Your ds sounds a bit like ds2, in some ways. DS2 has had a few issues with showing another boy his penis, and the other boy telling him to pull down his pants and show it again, and the other boy showing ds2 his penis, etc. This has happened, slightly differently, with two boys. DS2 tells me about it, and seems to get that he's not supposed to do it...but he does it again. This isn't a red flag for me, because ds2 does this with lots of things (hitting his sisters, throwing things in the house, climbing on things, etc.). He has serious struggles with impulse control, and also forgets that he's not supposed to do things while "in the moment". This whole aspect of his behaviour is a work in progress. He's a tremendously open, sweet, direct kid...but he also thinks the penis, especially his, is the greatest thing in the world. He's also fascinated (ie. thinks the topic is hilarious, and I think he also thinks it's funny, because it gets other people upset) by talking about combinations involving the penis and the face, the penis and the mouth, the penis and the bum...and the penis and the knees, toes, etc. etc. As far as I can tell, ds2 thinks the penis is a self-contained, portable toy. We just keep plugging away at "keep it to yourself".

All I can suggest, OP, is to continue working on it. It's somewhat worrying that he lied in the one situation, but he seems to be quite honest about this, in general. Keep hitting the "respect other people's boundaries" side of it, and watch for any major red flags. I'd also make sure you keep his therapist in the loop. And, whether your friendship survives this or not, I'd definitely try to contact the other mom, and get her child's version of events. There could be some subtleties that you didn't get from your ds.

ETA: I also don't think you treated this like it was nothing or no big deal. It's possible your friend took it that way, as other posters have suggested, but I didn't get that impression at all. It's quite possible to think something is normal, and still be trying to deal with it, as it's not appropriate/respectful/etc. (I think it's "normal" when my toddler hits someone...but that doesn't mean I just ignore it.)


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## elus0814

I have a six year old girl and an almost five year old boy. To me your son's behavior sounds like it is outside the range of normal but I don't have much experience with kids other than my own. If I was your friend I would no longer allow my daughter anywhere near your son, supervised or not. My kids aren't interested in genitals in any way. They have noticed that boys and girls look different but that's it and that was only in the context of seeing me change the diapers of their little brother and sister. I would be seeking the help of a different professional. Be sure to always supervise your son when he's around other children, male or female, so he doesn't do anything that could emotionally harm them.


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## Minxie

I have a 4.75 year old boy and we are pretty comfortable with nudity in our house. The rule for us is no nudity in the common areas and no nudity at other people's homes. We instituted this rule when his friend-girl came over last summer. At the time, they were about 4.3 years old; the two of them stripped naked and streaked through the house giggling. It was so odd that it quite took us both (me and her mom) aback. We calmly dealt with it by helping them dress and telling them that we keep our clothes on at other people's houses. They did and we haven't had any more issues with that but you could tell that they thought they were being funny; it had nothing to do with sexual exploration at all.

What you describe does not seem "normal" to me, maybe more because of the way you do describe it. Your post seemed a lot like you were hoping to be told this was normal so you wouldn't have to deal with it or your friend. I can tell you, though, that my friend was a bit more freaked out when our kids streaked us than I was; I think in large part because she is EXTREMELY overprotective of her daughter (late baby after many issues; almost lost her). I am of the school of thought that dealing with it calmly and matter-of-factly will move us past it more quickly. In our case, it was a necessary lesson about boundaries that just hadn't come up in our lives until that moment.


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## contactmaya

Sigh.... your friend is overreacting.

It must have really hurt your feelings, and its a pity that two kids that get along well have their friendship broken up in this way.

Your response to the situation couldnt have been better. You expressed your concern. You spoke to your honest boy about it. You said you should talk more, and it is a situation that requires a conversation, but i do not think its more alarming than that.

I have two boys, 2, and 5, and they are going through a 'poopy' stage. They makes jokes and songs about poop, they bend over and flash their behind at each other. if they are naked (have just taken a bath for eg. ) it wouldnt be beyond realm of possibility that they might flash their anuses at each other, maybe even touch it. It hasnt happened, and i wouldnt allow it, mainly for reasons of hygiene. I have explained by way of prevention that touching anuses is germy, because human waste is passed though it. But such a thing would seem normal to me, a normal extension of the 'poopy' humor.

As they get older, kids will play sexual games, this requires awareness and honesty (your son was honest and i am impressed). But as far as i understand it, this is normal too.

I teach my boys about bodily autonomy. If you say no, the person cannot touch you, that includes hugging, kissing, hitting, anything. Im sure that because of this, they will be able to stand up to anyone who wants to touch them in ways that are undesirable to them.

Anyway, i dont think your son's behavior is abnormal. However, i would certainly supervise playdates closely just to make sure boundaires are not crossed.

I am sorry your friend over reacted.


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## contactmaya

....wanted to add after having read above 2 posts-my kids frequently run around the house naked, especially my 2yo. If a playdate resulted in a boy and girl streaking around the house, i woudlnt have a problem with it at all. Where is the problem? If anything, its an opportunity to observe and supervise healthy behavior and ensure boundaries are not crossed. Being naked is a normal healthy human state. Im never the person bothered by this.

As for curiosity about genitals, i have observed this in my kids. Again, totally normal. My older son once showed curiosity about my 2yos penis. I told him it was private and he couldnt touch it. That was that.

I dont think you are looking for excuses, you are asking normal questions because you want to be honest about the situation.


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## mom2happy

If I didnt know that he was molested in daycare I wouldnt think this was so abnormal.

I think because of his past there has probably been much (maybe too much) talk about touching, privates, penisis............

He is curious and not shy. I am SO glad he feels comfortable to tell you what he did and hope he can always trust you with that stuff.

Some kids are sexual by nature, some are drawn to the no-no's. It could be one or the other or both for him.

I have a 5 yr old boy and a 7 yr old girl. Any curiosity about other peoples parts and touching I have always been very quick and non chalant about.

I give it the same reaction that I would for anything that I know is innocent. Besides a few random moonings, I havent encountered anything else.

Hopefully this is a short phase. It's really hard for a kid to understand why butts are not to be touched. He is only 5. He is in therapy. You know he is not being sexually abused now.

I wouldnt give this too much attention. I would say calmly before playdates that you expect him to keep his pants on, his friends to keep their pants on, and if anyone's come off- the playdate is over, and have a fun time!

If I were that mom I'd still hang out with you, but watch the kids closesly and have a talk with my DD.


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## kcparker

I just want to put in a word for being cautious about calling something 'normal' or not. Humans are sexual beings from a very young age, and human sexuality is widely varied in terms of drives, appetites, and curiousity. Social norms define what is deviant, and American culture is pretty far on the end of the spectrum that says sex is taboo and inappropriate/bad/wicked/shameful in a lot of contexts, and there are only a few 'right' ways to express sexuality. For example, Germans have a long tradition freie koerper kultur (nudism). We have a book in German about body parts, and the last page is filled with SEVEN drawings of buck naked, anatomically intact kids, and the child is supposed to identify who is a boy and who is a girl, and there is a blank spot where he/she can draw in their own picture of themselves. So, merely posing this question to a German might elicit a different response than asking Americans or Australians.

I don't think the comparisons of penises, wanting to see what equipment little girls have, or saying, "Touch my butt!" is necessarily cause for saying his behavior is abnormal. Yes, it does lie outside the boundary of what American adults have delineated as appropriate, but I think almost all kids engage in some degree of exploration of their own and other kids' bodies between ages 4-7 or so.

Kids are not always good at reading boundaries between socially sanctioned and socially proscribed, and he has a lot of overlapping boundaries of public/private body parts (hands/penis), public/private spaces (living room/bedroom), public/private venues (school/home) to navigate. If he is very curious and doesn't have great impulse control, he may not be checking all of this stuff. Whatever is going on with him, I think it's important not to instill in him a lasting sense of shame if he is merely a very curious little boy. If it were my boy, I'd let him know that I appreciate that he is being honest with me, and let him know that he can ask me ANY questions he has about his body or other people's bodies, check out some books from the library about bodies and reproduction. We also talk a lot about manners and how manners are things we do or refrain from doing in order to make sure everyone around us feels comfortable and has an enjoyable time when we are with them. So, #1, it's very bad manners to ask other people to show us their private body parts. And #2, it's also very bad manners to get undressed when we are out in public or entertaining company.

Do you trust your therapist? If she has a good and ongoing relationship with your son, do you think she can read him well enough to know if this behavior is indicative of some deeper psychological disturbance or pathology? I would like to believe that human beings are resilient enough that if he was hurt at a daycare at age 2, taken out of the situation, has been going to therapy, and you are providing responsive, affectionate, and appropriate care to him, that he will not be scarred or warped for life by this one incident.

PS As to your friend - if you two are really tight, I would be inclined to ask her straight up if this incident is something that she is planning to sever the friendship over and if there is anything that can be done to save the relationship because she is a pretty important person to you. I would be pretty distraught if one of my closest female friends cut off contact with me without even a full conversation about the decision.







Hopefully she will come around and you can work out a way to remain friends.


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## goldenwillow

My first thought even before reading your complete post was "This child has had someone touch or ? him". I am so sorry this happened.

I only speak from experience of my own that children don't know these types of things (sexually) unless prompted by another, mainly an older child whom has been exposed from an adult or an adult that shouldn't be trusted. I am glad to see you are proactive in seeking help for him.

I have found that parents that do not respect themselves (prior abuse themselves) and have not sought help tend to raise the same. Boundaries are essential.

My Father's family is not to be trusted and I will NEVER let my DS stay with any of them, no matter how much help they receive.


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## Bisou

In talking to my friend further, I found out that this had happened multiple times with her daughter and OTHER kids. So I think she was already concerned about this issue and this is probably why she was extra upset. Her daughter is 7 and this has happened with her daughter and other kids her age.

In talking with my son's teacher, she said that this happens ALL THE TIME at age 5-6. I don't think it's abnormal for kids to be playing doctor at 5. I do know that many kids (and adults, recalling their childhoods) are experimenting in this way and not telling their parents about it. I've had many boyfriends who've told me about messing around with their neighborhood friends and even siblings (brothers) all through their childhoods, and none of them were abused. I don't think I'd necessarily want my son participating in this, but I do think that some of that is common.

Also, with the lying incident, he said something happened (kids in the bathroom pulling their pants down) when it didn't happen, so no one was involved with that, including him, so I am not quite sure how you are saying that shows he knows the behavior isn't right. If he had lied, saying it didn't happen (no kids pulled down their pants) when it DID (kids really DID pull down their pants), that would make sense, but he made up an incident of kids pulling their pants down that never happened. That doesn't quite make sense to me.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zinemama*
> 
> Neither of my sons did anything like this at that age.
> 
> I would find this concerning, both in light of his past history, and even more so, in view of the fact that he lied about other kids doing it (the bathroom incident). To me, the lying indicates that he knows quite well that this behavior isn't right. Yet he continues to do it. Given all this, I wouldn't be comfortable with a therapist who takes the position that this is normal behavior. Asking questions is normal, as is some degree of "playing doctor." But that usually happens earlier than 5. By 5 no kid I knew was doing this - and again, the incident with the lying suggests that your son is aware of what's appropriate. Yet, for whatever reason, he's continuing to do it. Which, to me, would be worrisome.
> 
> In your friend's place, I would be uncomfortable having my daughter around your son.


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## PlayaMama

hmmm..... so, it seems like it is a range of normal. where some of us have children that are not sexualized at all, and others have a larger interest in sexuality.

i think it seems startling for those of us with children that have expressed absolutely no interest in that type of exploration to hear about those that have. it seems that there is an awareness, or lack of innocence, that is very different from our own experience. which makes it not "normal" for us.

if you feel that your ds is well within the realm of normal experience, as seems to be the case based upon your research and the experience of other posters on here, then leave the stress about this behind and focus on the future....

you can't take it back and you can only move forward. i do think that respect for others should be emphasized as well as boundaries, rather than focusing on the specific sexuality of the acts. you and your ds have a lot to deal with already and all you can do is to protect him as much as possible from difficult situations that might harm him,

best of luck to you mama!


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## zinemama

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bisou*
> 
> In talking to my friend further, I found out that this had happened multiple times with her daughter and OTHER kids. So I think she was already concerned about this issue and this is probably why she was extra upset. Her daughter is 7 and this has happened with her daughter and other kids her age.
> 
> In talking with my son's teacher, she said that this happens ALL THE TIME at age 5-6. I don't think it's abnormal for kids to be playing doctor at 5. I do know that many kids (and adults, recalling their childhoods) are experimenting in this way and not telling their parents about it. I've had many boyfriends who've told me about messing around with their neighborhood friends and even siblings (brothers) all through their childhoods, and none of them were abused. I don't think I'd necessarily want my son participating in this, but I do think that some of that is common.
> 
> Also, with the lying incident, he said something happened (kids in the bathroom pulling their pants down) when it didn't happen, so no one was involved with that, including him, so I am not quite sure how you are saying that shows he knows the behavior isn't right. If he had lied, saying it didn't happen (no kids pulled down their pants) when it DID (kids really DID pull down their pants), that would make sense, but he made up an incident of kids pulling their pants down that never happened. That doesn't quite make sense to me.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *zinemama*
> 
> Neither of my sons did anything like this at that age.
> 
> I would find this concerning, both in light of his past history, and even more so, in view of the fact that he lied about other kids doing it (the bathroom incident). To me, the lying indicates that he knows quite well that this behavior isn't right. Yet he continues to do it. Given all this, I wouldn't be comfortable with a therapist who takes the position that this is normal behavior. Asking questions is normal, as is some degree of "playing doctor." But that usually happens earlier than 5. By 5 no kid I knew was doing this - and again, the incident with the lying suggests that your son is aware of what's appropriate. Yet, for whatever reason, he's continuing to do it. Which, to me, would be worrisome.
> 
> In your friend's place, I would be uncomfortable having my daughter around your son.
Click to expand...

Oh, no, I understood that nothing happened, that it was a made-up incident. But to me, the fact that he would make up a story about sexual play and make a big deal of it indicates that this is behavior he knows shouldn't be going on. Given his history of abuse, it's not terribly surprising that he'd do something like that.


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## pupsnelda

I can reply to that... I am German and the description about Germans being more open or relaxed regarding nudity is right. But when I read the OP I had a completely different picture in my head than some "doctorplay" between children. I have two boys myself and have experienced curiosity in them while they were younger. My impression from the OP was very much the same what many PP said. I cannot tell exactly why (and actually I have read other posts about the background, so maybe this has influenced my view), but I was thinking, something is totally wrong.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kcparker*
> 
> I just want to put in a word for being cautious about calling something 'normal' or not. Humans are sexual beings from a very young age, and human sexuality is widely varied in terms of drives, appetites, and curiousity. Social norms define what is deviant, and American culture is pretty far on the end of the spectrum that says sex is taboo and inappropriate/bad/wicked/shameful in a lot of contexts, and there are only a few 'right' ways to express sexuality. For example, Germans have a long tradition freie koerper kultur (nudism). We have a book in German about body parts, and the last page is filled with SEVEN drawings of buck naked, anatomically intact kids, and the child is supposed to identify who is a boy and who is a girl, and there is a blank spot where he/she can draw in their own picture of themselves. So, merely posing this question to a German might elicit a different response than asking Americans or Australians.
> 
> I don't think the comparisons of penises, wanting to see what equipment little girls have, or saying, "Touch my butt!" is necessarily cause for saying his behavior is abnormal. Yes, it does lie outside the boundary of what American adults have delineated as appropriate, but I think almost all kids engage in some degree of exploration of their own and other kids' bodies between ages 4-7 or so.
> 
> Kids are not always good at reading boundaries between socially sanctioned and socially proscribed, and he has a lot of overlapping boundaries of public/private body parts (hands/penis), public/private spaces (living room/bedroom), public/private venues (school/home) to navigate. If he is very curious and doesn't have great impulse control, he may not be checking all of this stuff. Whatever is going on with him, I think it's important not to instill in him a lasting sense of shame if he is merely a very curious little boy. If it were my boy, I'd let him know that I appreciate that he is being honest with me, and let him know that he can ask me ANY questions he has about his body or other people's bodies, check out some books from the library about bodies and reproduction. We also talk a lot about manners and how manners are things we do or refrain from doing in order to make sure everyone around us feels comfortable and has an enjoyable time when we are with them. So, #1, it's very bad manners to ask other people to show us their private body parts. And #2, it's also very bad manners to get undressed when we are out in public or entertaining company.
> 
> Do you trust your therapist? If she has a good and ongoing relationship with your son, do you think she can read him well enough to know if this behavior is indicative of some deeper psychological disturbance or pathology? I would like to believe that human beings are resilient enough that if he was hurt at a daycare at age 2, taken out of the situation, has been going to therapy, and you are providing responsive, affectionate, and appropriate care to him, that he will not be scarred or warped for life by this one incident.
> 
> PS As to your friend - if you two are really tight, I would be inclined to ask her straight up if this incident is something that she is planning to sever the friendship over and if there is anything that can be done to save the relationship because she is a pretty important person to you. I would be pretty distraught if one of my closest female friends cut off contact with me without even a full conversation about the decision.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully she will come around and you can work out a way to remain friends.


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## pupsnelda

And as the friend I would NOT be happy. In her shoes I wouldn't feel that you have taken the situation serious.


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## MJB

I have two boys who are in 2nd grade and K. Once when the younger was in preschool (4) he and a couple friends of both genders were planning to pull their pants down, but we (the moms) heard them and intervened so it didn't actually happen. I think that sort of thing is normal once or twice at 4-5 but once boundaries have been established, it shouldn't be a recurrent issue. My oldest is 8 next month and has never done anything like that. He did tell me a couple of his classmates got in trouble for saying "sex" about a month ago.


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## ~PurityLake~

It sounds like the other kids in his school are also over-sexualized which makes me wonder if they're not all, or some, victims of an offender at the school, whether it's another student or a teacher. It seems that many children in one place being over-sexualized is a sign of something.


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## PlayaMama

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pupsnelda*
> 
> I can reply to that... I am German and the description about Germans being more open or relaxed regarding nudity is right. But when I read the OP I had a completely different picture in my head than some "doctorplay" between children. I have two boys myself and have experienced curiosity in them while they were younger. My impression from the OP was very much the same what many PP said. I cannot tell exactly why (and actually I have read other posts about the background, so maybe this has influenced my view), but I was thinking, something is totally wrong.


for me, i think it's not just the looking, it's the directions to touch in a specific place, which should not be sexualized in children.


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## APToddlerMama

Bisou-- I think you knew deep down when you posted here that the degree to which he is sexually acting out isn't typical, but it probably is hard to hear other people confirm that, especially when it might feel like our comments are saying he is a bad kid or something. I want you to know that the fact that he is doing this doesn't make him a bad kid. It means that being abused has really impacted him and you need to help him work through that. You need a really good therapist who is well trained in sexual abuse working with him. Your YYYyyyyYhhy Yy son's teacher is probably referring to isolated incidents, but what you are describing is ongoing, and I am assuming she doesn't know about the suggestion to "touch his butthole." She is ill-informed if she really thinks this is typical.


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## waiting2bemommy

I would not portray it as normal to your friend. My 3 yo does a lot of these same inappropriate behaviors and everyone I've mentioned it to (doctor, therapist, another doctor) say 'oh, it's normal, they're all obssessed with their penises at that age." Yet, I know as the mother of a dughter that if a little boy engaged in that behavior in front of my dd, let alone tried to get her to pull her pants down, I would be hopping mad. not necessarily AT the child, but just upset by the situation. I don't really have any advice regarding the behaviors because we are dealing with the same stuff here (my ds pulled his pants down and spread a barbie doll's legs open and put it on top of his penis) but I would definitely say that you might need to let your friend know exaclty what you are doing, ;proactively to make sure that this never happens again.

Because as the mother of a littl boy I understand that things happen that may not be intended maliciously, but as a survivor of abuse myself and the mother of a little girl, I would most certainly be advocating for ym dd not to be exposed to inappropriate sexual behavior. Even if that meant the end of the friendship.


----------



## waiting2bemommy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> . As far as I can tell, ds2 thinks the penis is a self-contained, portable toy.


 OT, but I don't know how much luck you'll have refuting that belief....I know some grown men who operate on that premise.


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## kcparker

You know, maybe I am just the outlier her, but I do NOT think your son is exhibiting anything pathological or deviant except that a lot of adults are defining it that way. OP, please don't get yourself worked into a tizzy thinking your son is some sort of mini-pervert. Even with the number of incidents you describe spread over a number of years, this does not seem like an excessive amount of what I would call GENITAL curiosity. It may have some sort of inchoate sexual component to it, and he might be testing boundaries, and he might be getting some influence from older kids at his school, but it's really does not sound to me like he is in need of mental health assistance beyond what he is getting in therapy. If he were acting out and seeking sexual attention or inappropriate attention from other adults, going up to somebody and humping their leg, asking other kids to act out scenarios, or talking about sexual acts in an explicit way, I would be more concerned than I would be by what you are describing (even the "touch my butt!" I think is accurately portrayed by your description that it's more about "ha ha, that's where poop comes from!" than about being overtly sexual). From your original post, the first two incidents were NOT at his instigation. The two girls and pants pulling down, he started. The mass scene in the bathroom was a fabrication. And then he pulled his own pants down, asked the 7 year old to do same, and I assume she refused. So, really, he has had TWO times when he instigated this sort of behavior. I seriously think that this is primarily an issue of reiterating appropriate boundaries for polite society.


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## DariusMom

My DS is now 8 and hasn't exhibited any interest other than self exploration.

I do think there can be a pretty big range of normal. However, I think that the OP's DS does need some help. Why do I say that? It's the number of times *something* (though what that is may be in dispute) of this nature has happened, the lies he tells about it, the abuse he suffered in the past *and* the fact that he already has quite severe behavior problems and a family history of mental illness (have followed the OP's story re: her son for quite some time).

Definitely doesn't mean that he's "bad" or a "sexual predator" or something like that. But it does mean, frankly, he needs to be watched much more closely and helped more than a kid who was doing this for the first time.

OP, I'm sorry. :Hug I know you have a huge amount on your plate as a single mom and that you've already been through the wringer with your DS. I know how very hard you're trying to help him in other areas. I know how hard it is not to get defensive. But, as a PP said, I think you know in your heart of hearts something is off and that's why you posted.


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## Mom2Brendan

If other kids are showing him 'habbits' like that there may be some issue going with their people that are in their family like if some kid talks about mouth on penis he is getting that from somewhere or penis in butts .

I do know around this age kids are Prone to Copying what another Kid Does .

My son friend whose a girl whenever she's in a skirt she flips it up showing off her undies in front of other boys her age which includes my son plus a kid who is 2 yrs older than them. She is just like the other 2 boys will go walking around naked and they are 4 . One saw the pool and said hey want to 'swim' Brendan went running inside going Mommy Blank Took His shorts off and is Naked out there .

So I went out and saw yep then I go Swimming out fits only in the Pool No Naked kids allowed in Pools .This was this summer .

I mostly think these kids are like 'copying of what they seen' or even heard not thinking it's bad but think it's funny so then they think that is funny as much as think Farting Loudly or Fake Farting, or Armpit Farting , Burping to Fake Burping , saying Mommy I'm giving myself a Atomic Wedgie or doing the mooning of butts .

Or even go I'm going to Fart on You or In Your Face (my brother had that habbit when he was younger now my son has the talk) .

Most of the kids this age I think it's because They Get Attention from Other People which I say includes Girls because at my b-day party a bunch of girls wanted to show off their bbs and see others (not my idea nor did I participate in it nor did my cousin who was there too. That was in Gradeschool proably around 4th grade .

My brother and cousin had a habbit running around nakey up until age 7 and even did that in front of our neighborhood girl who was 4 at that time to see 2 older boys naked to also having my brother pee on my bedroom door when he was 7 and I was 10 .

I say at this 'age' keep kids visual sighted because they 'want attention' by having someone else them to not do that they will 'continue' because they are getting Attention Not only From The Other Kids Laughing and the other neighbors Yelling at them until Their Parent(s) come to get them .

All you can Try do to do is Say hey Be Modest Don't do this Action but sometimes they want to share what they learned so my boy ended up showing his Grandma the Way He Can Armpit Fart and I'm lke Geez after I told him not to do that !!!!!!!

His classmate whose a boy taught him that and I'm like sigh .


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## missnoodlesmom

I don't really think it's that weird, to be honest. I've seen weirder  as a teacher to preschool and early grade school kids. One year we had to take a nap time cot away from a little girl because she would gyrate on the PVC portion of it. MANY of the children would put their hands down their pants and play with themselves when they were on their cots and supposed to be sleeping. We didn't make much of a big deal about it. And to me it's only natural to at some point say - Hey, I have this. Do you? I think mine is bigger! It's only deviant when others make it out that way (ahem...parents). Sure, teach them that their body parts shouldn't be touched by others, etc. but to make a huge deal about it is going to make it taboo aka more appealing anyways.

My kids (2 and 4) still bathe together sometimes, and streak naked frequently. It's NBD for us. Sometimes they will make note of the different anatomy but I just say something like "Yep, he has a penis just like Daddy" or something else to that affect. My 2 y/o does all sort of ridiculous things, plays with his penis in the tub sometimes, he does this goofy thing where he will pop it over the top of his undies and start dancing and singing "I let my peenie out". I try not to laugh and just tell him that his penis stays in his pants unless he's peeing or in the tub, and go on with our lives. Now with my 4 y/o I have had more in-depth conversations about when it's okay to touch yourself (only when you are by yourself and in your own bedroom) and such like that. I think the mystification of all things sexual adds to the problem. IMO from reading the OP, you have made quite a big deal of some of this stuff, and maybe he likes the attention he is getting for it. IDK your kid, though, so I really can't say.


----------



## Bisou

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Minxie*
> Your post seemed a lot like you were hoping to be told this was normal so you wouldn't have to deal with it or your friend.


Nope, not that at all. Not EVEN close. If I didn't want to "deal with my friend," I wouldn't have texted her 3 times and called her 3 times asking if she wanted to talk about it. When she didn't respond and then canceled her plans to spend my birthday with me, I just thought, well, I guess she doesn't want to talk about it and I have done everything I can do.

She did call me later and revealed that her daughter had had these same problems with other kids her age (7, two years OLDER than my son) and that it had happened at least three times, so she was already worried about this.

We have two slightly different stories from the kids, so it's hard to tell what exactly happened, but I won't be having him play with kids when I can't see what he's doing. This happened in a large indoor play area with two-story tunnels and slides, so we couldn't see them inside the play structure. Unfortunately, it's our favorite place to go, especially since it's one of the only good places to play inside during our cold, rainy winters, but I won't be able to take him here again until I know this is resolved.


----------



## Bisou

Hi KC:

I would say I am concerned, simply for the fact that I don't want this to become a huge issue for him, and I don't want it to damage our friendships with others, but I am with you on your overall view of this issue. I have been a little surprised at some of the responses that say this is a huge, serious problem. It's not that I think there is nothing to worry about, otherwise I wouldn't have posted about this, but I was just hoping for some perspective on what others have seen with their kids.

Many of the moms who posted have more than one child where they may bathe with siblings, see a sibling naked during diaper or clothing changes, etc. My son is an only child, so he has no opportunity to see what others' bodies look like, and I think this is a normal curiosity.

I personally don't think this is sexual because there has not been any touching involved, just looking. I have heard stories of other kids this age involved with touching, putting things inside their bodies, and all sorts of stuff, without the kids ever being abused. If my son was touching people's genitals or doing more involved activities, I would be a lot more worried. I am not happy about him pulling down the girl's pants at school because that is a forceful action, but I think to him that was more funny that anything else. When I was in middle school, both girls and boys "pantsed" people (pulled down other people's pants) to be funny and embarrass people. Of course I don't think that's ok, but it seems like somewhat normal kid behavior.

I probably have made somewhat of a big deal about it with him, emphasizing that I didn't want him to be doing this. After the first incident at elementary school that was initiated by another boy, I talked to him about it a lot, and his teacher talked to him about it, and it was a week or two after this that he fabricated the story about a bunch of kids being in the bathroom and pulling down their pants to have a look. He said, "Mom, I have something to tell you. I'm sorry," and then proceeded to tell me the story, naming several of his classmates. When his teacher sat him and these other children down to have a talk about this, the other kids said, "WHAT??? I didn't do that!" and then my son admitted he made it up. So it may have been because he was seeking attention.

He hasn't lied about the behavior to cover it up, in any way. With the incident with my friend's daughter, he told me before we even left the place that it had happened and was very sorry. Aside from the incident at school, I haven't known my son to lie. He tends to admit what is going on with him. The only thing he will keep from me is what OTHER people are doing to him (hurting him at school, being mean, etc), but he has always been very forthright about telling me what he has been doing, whether he's been in trouble, if he had a time out at school, etc.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kcparker*
> 
> You know, maybe I am just the outlier her, but I do NOT think your son is exhibiting anything pathological or deviant except that a lot of adults are defining it that way. OP, please don't get yourself worked into a tizzy thinking your son is some sort of mini-pervert. Even with the number of incidents you describe spread over a number of years, this does not seem like an excessive amount of what I would call GENITAL curiosity. It may have some sort of inchoate sexual component to it, and he might be testing boundaries, and he might be getting some influence from older kids at his school, but it's really does not sound to me like he is in need of mental health assistance beyond what he is getting in therapy. If he were acting out and seeking sexual attention or inappropriate attention from other adults, going up to somebody and humping their leg, asking other kids to act out scenarios, or talking about sexual acts in an explicit way, I would be more concerned than I would be by what you are describing (even the "touch my butt!" I think is accurately portrayed by your description that it's more about "ha ha, that's where poop comes from!" than about being overtly sexual). From your original post, the first two incidents were NOT at his instigation. The two girls and pants pulling down, he started. The mass scene in the bathroom was a fabrication. And then he pulled his own pants down, asked the 7 year old to do same, and I assume she refused. So, really, he has had TWO times when he instigated this sort of behavior. I seriously think that this is primarily an issue of reiterating appropriate boundaries for polite society.


----------



## Bisou

My son was abused in a daycare, but we don't believe it was molestation. He was physically abused and physical damage was caused by a female daycare teacher, but it appeared to be intended to hurt him, and DID hurt him. He had bruises all over the backs of his legs and damage to the skin of his testicles. It was basically ripped off in multiple places, and the doctor and I both thought it looked like someone pinched and twisted the skin of the testicles. Horrifying beyond belief.

I suppose you could say it was sexual abuse because it happened in the genital area, and I don't know what really happened because he was two, and obviously I wasn't there, but it seemed more like this person just wanted to hurt my son.

I suppose this could cause sexual issues for him, but I don't really think it's related necessarily to what's going on now. Though who knows. Since he is not trying to do sexual acts and has never acted out in that way, aside from wanting to show others' his body and see theirs, I just don't think this is related to that. I would say he suffered physical abuse, not molestation.

Also, when that happened, we decided not to talk to him about the abuse unless he brought it up. He was only two, so the communication was limited. For a few weeks, he would say "The teacher hurt my penis," and I would say, "I know, honey. I am so sorry you were hurt. That was not ok for the teacher to do that to you," and hug him, and talk along those lines. So aside from the talk about not looking at other kids' private areas, this was not a subject of conversation in our home at all since he was just two. He's now five.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mom2happy*
> 
> If I didnt know that he was molested in daycare I wouldnt think this was so abnormal.
> 
> I think because of his past there has probably been much (maybe too much) talk about touching, privates, penisis............
> 
> He is curious and not shy. I am SO glad he feels comfortable to tell you what he did and hope he can always trust you with that stuff.
> 
> Some kids are sexual by nature, some are drawn to the no-no's. It could be one or the other or both for him.
> 
> I have a 5 yr old boy and a 7 yr old girl. Any curiosity about other peoples parts and touching I have always been very quick and non chalant about.
> 
> I give it the same reaction that I would for anything that I know is innocent. Besides a few random moonings, I havent encountered anything else.
> 
> Hopefully this is a short phase. It's really hard for a kid to understand why butts are not to be touched. He is only 5. He is in therapy. You know he is not being sexually abused now.
> 
> I wouldnt give this too much attention. I would say calmly before playdates that you expect him to keep his pants on, his friends to keep their pants on, and if anyone's come off- the playdate is over, and have a fun time!
> 
> If I were that mom I'd still hang out with you, but watch the kids closesly and have a talk with my DD.


----------



## Hoopin' Mama

My son has played the "I'll show you mine" game with only one of his friends. We were at dinner at a friend's house and dh walked in on them in the bathroom. It kind of freaked me because my son is a year older and I wondered if he was being the boss in the game. I called the Mom the next day, she was not disturbed in the least. Another time I found them on the trampoline and they had taken their pants off and I'm not exactly sure what the heck they were doing, but they seemed instinctively to know to stop when they saw me coming.

Neither of the boys have ever been abused. We have talked to them about keeping their pants on, but honestly we were more grossed out about germs (something gross went around preschool). It seems the phase has passed.

Give your friend some time and let her know that while you don't think this means there is something "wrong" with your son, let her know you do take this seriously. Tell her about the books you want to read and tell her you will not leave them unattended while working on this. Her mama bear protectiveness is on high alert right now, and for that I can't blame her.

I'm so sorry somebody hurt your son.


----------



## APToddlerMama

Bisou, I mean this in the most kind and gentle way possible. You stated he tried to get the little girl to touch him. She declined which is why it didn't happen. Don't pull the wool over your own eyes on this. You will really be sorry you did long term if you don't address it very thoroughly. I have seen kids on my caseload progress over the years from doing exactly this sort of thing to becoming older kids and/or teenagers who continue at which point CPS gets involved and/or law enforcement. I've seen both involved with kids as young as 10, and the boy I'm thinking of was pulled from his home. Don't let that happen to you just because it is easier right now or because some people on here are telling you (perhaps without having read some of your other threads) that this is typical. It isn't. Whoever was mentioning the kids masturbating at daycare...that is normal. This isn't. There is a great deal of sexual exploration and curiousity that can be okay, but what your describing isn't. When he pulled the girl's pants down, it wasn't to be funny. It was to engage her in touching. Touching butt cheeks is much less sexual than asking to touch the butt hole. It is pretty brazen to be doing this in a place with adults close by anyhow. He NEEDS to have his trauma addressed more thoroughly by a therapist who knows what they are talking about. Hugs...

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bisou*
> 
> I personally don't think this is sexual because there has not been any touching involved, just looking.


----------



## missnoodlesmom

I think my biggest concern would be this: you have told him that it's wrong and he shouldn't do it, and that it's really serious. And he continues to. Why? Rebellion or is it obsession with sexual stuff. Figuring out the answer to that would be more pressing to me than the actual acts themselves, because they don't seem out of the range (or aif they are, just barely) of normal to me.


----------



## ~PurityLake~

I agree with what APToddler mama wrote. What the previous poster described was masturbation, which doesn't involve anyone else and is normal. What you describe is your son involving others, wanting to touch other, wanting others to touch him. This is simply not at all the same thing.


----------



## MammaB21

Wow. I'm having a really hard time getting through these replies. I keep thinking how sad it makes me to know that so many parents would view sexual curiosity as abnormal/wrong/shameful. This can be extremely damaging IMO. I don't think sexuality can be determined as 'normal' or not normal no matter what age you are. It probably isn't typical for a 5 year old to be super sexualized, but that doesn't make it abnormal. It's normal for him and that's what matters. If he's getting counseling and talking honestly with you about it then I don't see the problem. I think it's definitely important to talk A LOT about respecting other peoples bodies and boundaries and that would include not showing his private body parts to unwilling participants. This is more about respect IMO then anything to do with sex.

To those that have said that children shouldn't be sexualized at that age, or that they just wouldn't know about that stuff without an adult showing them........I have to ask, why? Would you argue that a child also wouldn't instinctively know to scratch an itch? What you're really saying is that it's impossible to feel sexual feelings in the genitals before some magical appropriate age and that's just absurd. If a child has an early drive or curiosity, why is it so far of a stretch to assume they would also have an imagination surrounding that curiosity?

Maybe I have the views I do because I was one of 'those' kids. I don't remember having my first orgasm because it was just a normal part of life. I can assure you I'm a 'normal' adult with a normal sex drive. I just don't get this gross overreaction and how one could justify that it's at all helpful.

OP: I'm sorry that your friend overreacted. I think you handled the situation very well. Please don't take what some have said here too seriously. What matters here is your son and his feelings that you need to protect. Overreacting to this could potentially have life long effects on his sexuality. Especially since he has already experienced sexual abuse I would strongly encourage you to try to continue to normalize sexuality as a part of life. Just keep reminding him of the boundaries without shaming him.

ETA: And my goodness, are we seriously suggesting that the reason the teacher views this as normal is because someone in the school is molesting the kids? I mean sure, it's possible, but isn't it more likely that (with the exception of your child) this could actually be *gasps* normal?


----------



## zinemama

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MammaB21*
> 
> Wow. I'm having a really hard time getting through these replies. I keep thinking how sad it makes me to know that so many parents would view sexual curiosity as abnormal/wrong/shameful. This can be extremely damaging IMO.


MammaB21, many of us are basing our reaction to this situation on what what we know of the OP's son from her other thread about his very troubled past and his current behavioral issues. In that context, this doesn't seem like the simple sexual curiosity most of us have experienced with our own kids, but part of a disturbing continuum. OP, all the best to you and your son.


----------



## pupsnelda

Thank you!!! I agree 100 %. AND I have read all the other threads.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> Bisou, I mean this in the most kind and gentle way possible. You stated he tried to get the little girl to touch him. She declined which is why it didn't happen. Don't pull the wool over your own eyes on this. You will really be sorry you did long term if you don't address it very thoroughly. I have seen kids on my caseload progress over the years from doing exactly this sort of thing to becoming older kids and/or teenagers who continue at which point CPS gets involved and/or law enforcement. I've seen both involved with kids as young as 10, and the boy I'm thinking of was pulled from his home. Don't let that happen to you just because it is easier right now or because some people on here are telling you (perhaps without having read some of your other threads) that this is typical. It isn't. Whoever was mentioning the kids masturbating at daycare...that is normal. This isn't. There is a great deal of sexual exploration and curiousity that can be okay, but what your describing isn't. When he pulled the girl's pants down, it wasn't to be funny. It was to engage her in touching. Touching butt cheeks is much less sexual than asking to touch the butt hole. It is pretty brazen to be doing this in a place with adults close by anyhow. He NEEDS to have his trauma addressed more thoroughly by a therapist who knows what they are talking about. Hugs...
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Bisou*
> 
> I personally don't think this is sexual because there has not been any touching involved, just looking.
Click to expand...


----------



## DariusMom

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zinemama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *MammaB21*
> 
> Wow. I'm having a really hard time getting through these replies. I keep thinking how sad it makes me to know that so many parents would view sexual curiosity as abnormal/wrong/shameful. This can be extremely damaging IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> MammaB21, many of us are basing our reaction to this situation on what what we know of the OP's son from her other thread about his very troubled past and his current behavioral issues. In that context, this doesn't seem like the simple sexual curiosity most of us have experienced with our own kids, but part of a disturbing continuum. OP, all the best to you and your son.
Click to expand...

This. Once again, as I posted upthread, if this were the first time *or* the OP's son didn't have a history of lying about it *or* he hadn't been abused *or* he didn't already have pretty severe behavioral issues *or* a history of mental illness in the family, I could get that this was normal sexual exploration and curiosity. Because of all the extenuating circumstances, I think it needs to be taken very seriously.


----------



## pupsnelda

Bisou,

Don't you think that the fact that he tells you immediately after the incident and that he is VERY SORRY means that he tries to TELL you something? If it was just a silly thing, he would not be so quick to tell you, it wouldn't be so important to him.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bisou*
> 
> He hasn't lied about the behavior to cover it up, in any way. With the incident with my friend's daughter, *he told me before we even left the place that it had happened and was very sorry. * Aside from the incident at school, I haven't known my son to lie. He tends to admit what is going on with him. The only thing he will keep from me is what OTHER people are doing to him (hurting him at school, being mean, etc), but he has always been very forthright about telling me what he has been doing, whether he's been in trouble, if he had a time out at school, etc.


----------



## Bisou

Hi Hoopin:

I definitely didn't tell her it was no big deal or anything, but she was angry that it happened at all. I hope she knows I am taking it seriously, and I can understand if she didn't want our kids playing together. I just thought it was weird that she was just going to cut me out of her life as a friend! It seems like she is over her anger now, at least as far as our friendship goes. I think she was just upset about what happened and not sure how to handle it, even though I was really open to talking to her about it.

Thanks for being sorry about my son. I am sorry too, and I feel lots of guilt about it, even though I know intellectually that it wasn't my fault and I did everything (above and beyond!) to make sure he was in a safe and secure place. Had I not been a single mom, I never would've left him in daycare, and it pains me that I had to make that decision and it ended so horribly for us.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Hoopin' Mama*
> 
> My son has played the "I'll show you mine" game with only one of his friends. We were at dinner at a friend's house and dh walked in on them in the bathroom. It kind of freaked me because my son is a year older and I wondered if he was being the boss in the game. I called the Mom the next day, she was not disturbed in the least. Another time I found them on the trampoline and they had taken their pants off and I'm not exactly sure what the heck they were doing, but they seemed instinctively to know to stop when they saw me coming.
> 
> Neither of the boys have ever been abused. We have talked to them about keeping their pants on, but honestly we were more grossed out about germs (something gross went around preschool). It seems the phase has passed.
> 
> Give your friend some time and let her know that while you don't think this means there is something "wrong" with your son, let her know you do take this seriously. Tell her about the books you want to read and tell her you will not leave them unattended while working on this. Her mama bear protectiveness is on high alert right now, and for that I can't blame her.
> 
> I'm so sorry somebody hurt your son.


----------



## Daffodil

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zinemama*
> 
> MammaB21, many of us are basing our reaction to this situation on what what we know of the OP's son from her other thread about his very troubled past and his current behavioral issues. In that context, this doesn't seem like the simple sexual curiosity most of us have experienced with our own kids, but part of a disturbing continuum.


It's interesting to see the wide range of reactions on this thread. I wasn't familiar with the OP's other posts about her son, so I skimmed them, and ended up feeling like having that background made this situation seem less troubling, not more. The OP already knows her child has serious behavioral problems, and she's getting professional help to deal with them. If he has trouble in general with controlling his behavior, it seems only to be expected that if he has a normal amount of sexual curiosity, he might be more likely than other kids to act on it inappropriately, even after being told that behavior is wrong. (I'm not sure "sexual" is even the right word for this interest. I don't see any evidence that he's associating butts and genitals with sex or sexual feelings.)

I don't see the OP as asking whether her son's behavior is inappropriate, or whether she should do anything about it. She's not treating it as appropriate, and she's trying to stop it. It seems to me that she's just wondering whether his behavior indicates an unusually high degree of sexual interest - whether he seems to have another problem on top of his general behavioral problems. I don't quite get why some people are saying that the OP shouldn't see this amount of "sexual" curiosity as normal, even though it would seem normal for another kid, just because her son has other issues.


----------



## kcparker

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zinemama*
> 
> MammaB21, many of us are basing our reaction to this situation on what what we know of the OP's son from her other thread about his very troubled past and his current behavioral issues. In that context, this doesn't seem like the simple sexual curiosity most of us have experienced with our own kids, but part of a disturbing continuum. OP, all the best to you and your son.


I went back and read some of OP's other posts, and in light of those, I can see why others are expressing concern. However, I think that even if there is heightened concern, it's so very important to tease out all these different behavioral threads and really ask what is going on. Is this run-of-the-mill curiousity about how girls and boys are different? I know that no matter what, pulling down somebody else's pants violates their autonomy and is somewhat aggressive. But it could have been done in a low-impulse, I'm curious moment; he might have been trying to be playful or thought it was funny in a slapstick way; or he might have been doing it in an aggressive way intended to intimidate or humiliate the other child. Motivation is important in this act. If it was done because he was curious or "thought it would be funny," it's a teachable moment. If he did it with the intent to be mean or because he was angry and wanted to hurt this other child, then I think it falls into the continuum of concerning behavior that OP has posted about in the past.

I do think it is very, very positive and a point not to be overlooked that Bisou's son is honest with her and expresses an understanding that his behavior is not acceptable. He fessed up and apologized immediately, which indicates to me that he is developing an awareness of right and wrong. This consciousness takes time to develop, and one of the ways we learn boundaries is by crossing them and either being told that what we did was wrong, or by feeling some internal sense of shame or guilt about our actions. I think he is in the middle of making this journey. OP's son has historically had issues with impulse control and defiance, pretty severe aggression towards his mother, anger, and tantruming. He was physically abused as a two year old, and he has a therapist at the tender age of not-yet-six. I think it is INCREDIBLY important that the adults around him tread cautiously and not give him further sources of shame/guilt/confusion/anger by overlaying a judgement of "you are a wicked boy; exploring bodies is bad and sexuality is bad" on him. He doesn't need one more layer of feeling like he's different or defective if this is simply an only child imitating older kids and/or expressing curiosity about other people's bodies and how they are different from his own. I would think that his therapist and/or teachers should be able to tell you, Bisou, what sort of behavioral red flags to look for, and the adults in his life might keep a closer eye on him for awhile in play situations.

Just a couple counterpoints for some perspective:

If this were fin de siecle Vienna, if he'd been under a table and lifted up a grown woman's skirt and caught a glimpse of her bare calf, that would have been perceived as him looking at a forbidden body part. Now, nobody would bat an eye. And, at the daycare my son goes to, ALL the kids go on "Potty Posse" - boys and girls together - about once every 60-90 minutes. They have two potties and two sinks in a gang-style open area. They line up and take turns on the toilets, then stand and wash their hands while the next kids sit on the potties. They all see a heck of a lot of pants being pulled down and back up again and genital flashing, and I think it's a pretty normalizing way to deal with this issue in a preschool setting. On a lighter note, DS1 has been paying lots of attention to anatomical differences -- he told his aunt that he knows the difference between boys and girls: Boys have penises, and girls have pajamas.


----------



## MammaB21

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zinemama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *MammaB21*
> 
> Wow. I'm having a really hard time getting through these replies. I keep thinking how sad it makes me to know that so many parents would view sexual curiosity as abnormal/wrong/shameful. This can be extremely damaging IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> MammaB21, many of us are basing our reaction to this situation on what what we know of the OP's son from her other thread about his very troubled past and his current behavioral issues. In that context, this doesn't seem like the simple sexual curiosity most of us have experienced with our own kids, but part of a disturbing continuum. OP, all the best to you and your son.
Click to expand...

Okay, that's fair, I don't know the back story. But my opinion isn't really changed. As a whole, maybe the OP's son has some things he needs help working through. It sounds like she's doing that, though. As far as this one issue goes, I don't think it's fair to tell a child that their feelings (you know, the ones they can't help having) are wrong or something to be ashamed of. It's fine to focus on the behavior and that the behavior is not appropriate because of xyz. I've just heard a lot of "Oh my, that's not normal! My son/daughter never did that! I never did that! There's something wrong with your son!" I don't see that as being productive.


----------



## Bisou

I have talked to him about not doing this before, which is why I think he told me about it and that he was sorry. I felt like he was more feeling shameful about his curiosity than anything else, which is something I want to avoid, but I am still trying to sort out exactly what is going on with him.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pupsnelda*
> 
> Bisou,
> 
> Don't you think that the fact that he tells you immediately after the incident and that he is VERY SORRY means that he tries to TELL you something? If it was just a silly thing, he would not be so quick to tell you, it wouldn't be so important to him.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Bisou*
> 
> He hasn't lied about the behavior to cover it up, in any way. With the incident with my friend's daughter, *he told me before we even left the place that it had happened and was very sorry. * Aside from the incident at school, I haven't known my son to lie. He tends to admit what is going on with him. The only thing he will keep from me is what OTHER people are doing to him (hurting him at school, being mean, etc), but he has always been very forthright about telling me what he has been doing, whether he's been in trouble, if he had a time out at school, etc.
Click to expand...


----------



## nextcommercial

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zinemama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *MammaB21*
> 
> Wow. I'm having a really hard time getting through these replies. I keep thinking how sad it makes me to know that so many parents would view sexual curiosity as abnormal/wrong/shameful. This can be extremely damaging IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> MammaB21, many of us are basing our reaction to this situation on what what we know of the OP's son from her other thread about his very troubled past and his current behavioral issues. In that context, this doesn't seem like the simple sexual curiosity most of us have experienced with our own kids, but part of a disturbing continuum. OP, all the best to you and your son.
Click to expand...

See? I didn't know any of that other stuff either. Especially that he was left bruised and injured like that by a teacher!

Poor guy. Honestly, that does change my views quite a bit. But, I'm heartbroken for him anyway.


----------



## kcparker

Has he asked you questions about sex and gender differences, reproduction, where did I come from, and of that sort of stuff? Can he articulate his motivations for pulling his pants down and wanting little girls to do the same?


----------



## Storm Bride

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mom2Brendan*
> 
> If other kids are showing him 'habbits' like that there may be some issue going with their people that are in their family like if some kid talks about mouth on penis he is getting that from somewhere or penis in butts .


This is a good general rule, but it's not always true. DS2 comes up with this stuff completely on his own. If you heard/saw him in these discussions, there would be no question. I've also heard him make suggestions to touch his butthole (and I don't think it was actually confirmed that OP's ds said that). This is because he knows that it's not okay to talk like that, and he knows it gets a reaction. He has no conception of it in the sexual sense at all. He has said similar things about kissing his penis...and it's no different than when he talks about kissing his elbow or his nose or his ear or whatever.

Even the generally accepted red flags about sexual abuse issues aren't always red flags. I


----------



## Storm Bride

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *missnoodlesmom*
> 
> I think my biggest concern would be this: you have told him that it's wrong and he shouldn't do it, and that it's really serious. And he continues to. Why? Rebellion or is it obsession with sexual stuff. Figuring out the answer to that would be more pressing to me than the actual acts themselves, because they don't seem out of the range (or aif they are, just barely) of normal to me.


This seems to be one of the key reasons some people are so concerned about this. I guess I react differently, because this is just the way things are with ds2. He does things he shouldn't, seems to understand that they're very serious (hitting his baby sister over the head with a book, for instance), and then does them again on another occasion. We just keep plugging away at it. The penis stuff has been a minor part of the picture, but it fits the pattern, yk?

I think I'll go back and read some of the OP's other threads, as it sounds as though her ds has some serious issues going on. But...she's not ignoring them. She's talking to/working with him and she has him in therapy. I get the feelng from some posts in this thread (not the one I quoted above) that people think she's taking this too lightly, because she's not having a major fit about it.

re: the girl he invited to touch him. I really don't think that puts this behaviour over the edge, unless there's reason to believe that he was really pushing the issue after she declined.


----------



## missnoodlesmom

Is wanting to look at other kids really that far off from figuring out your own body? I don't understand why child masterbation is "okay" but wondering what is going on in someone else's pants isn't. Kids love to classify and figure things out - this seems within that realm to me. That and a combination of getting such a big reaction from Mom when anything about his weiner comes up. It just seems pretty ridiculous that most of you think it's such an awful thing.


----------



## anne1140

Firstly, I am so sorry about what happened to your son. I can't imagine how horrified you must have been.

I am a kindergarten teacher, so here is my perspective:

Yes, curiosity is normal. Putting hands down pants and shirts (their own) is normal. Talking about private parts (esp. boys, ime) is normal. I even had a girl a few years back straddling a bar out at recess who yelled, "This feels good!" My aide was pretty horrified, but I didn't even blink an eye. Where I would draw the line is when others are involved. I suppose two kids could come up with something mutually, but what I've seen in my classroom that has been upsetting is when one student pressures another or does something against another's will. For instance, last year I had a lot of issues with one boy who would constantly call girls sexy, hot, baby...you get the picture. He gave a girl a hickey on the playground, talked sexually about a girls' butt when she was bent over, and even went so far as to put his finger down the back of a girl's pants to touch her butt crack, and down the front of another girl's pants to touch her underwear. This kind of thing is not appropriate at all. Apart from the last example, which was supposedly instigated by the boy but mutual (I didn't see it happen), all of the others were harassment. We had several meetings with the parents, who thought we were blowing it out of proportion, but I want to know how they would feel if they were the parents of the girls, or the girls themselves, for that matter. Those girls have a right to feel safe.

I know your son is not doing exactly what I described above, but the pulling a girl's pants down concerns me. For those who think it's not a problem, how would you feel if you were that girl? She should have the right, no matter her age or the age of the instigator, to feel safe and not have that happen to her. It doesn't matter what the reason was that he did it. The result is still the same. The girl could feel humiliated either way. Yes, even at 5.

So that's where I stand on it. I have a boy this year who is overly infatuated with his penis, and to an extent, I think it's normal, but I do have a problem with him chasing other boys around the bathroom with his pants down (he has done this), because he is involving other boys who tell him pretty clearly not to do it.

I am not about shaming sexuality at all, but I am about teaching respect for others and proper boundaries.


----------



## APToddlerMama

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *missnoodlesmom*
> 
> It just seems pretty ridiculous that most of you think it's such an awful thing.


I don't think it is ridiculous that many are concerned that this behavior crosses the line of normal curiosity and is signaling pretty loud and clear that this child needs some help working through his trauma. Nobody is saying he's an awful boy. We're suggesting the behavior is indicative of him needing to work through a history of trauma.

I'm not a prude and I don't think those who are concerned are either. I will never shame my own son for sexual curiousity, but if I see him showing signs that something is amiss, I will get him help. There is no down side to addressing this further in therapy, but there is a huge potential down side for brushing it off as typical curiousity.


----------



## ~PurityLake~

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *anne1140*
> 
> Yes, curiosity is normal. Putting hands down pants and shirts (their own) is normal. Talking about private parts (esp. boys, ime) is normal.
> 
> Where I would draw the line is when others are involved. I suppose two kids could come up with something mutually, but what I've seen in my classroom that has been upsetting is when one student pressures another or does something against another's will.
> 
> I know your son is not doing exactly what I described above, but the pulling a girl's pants down concerns me. For those who think it's not a problem, how would you feel if you were that girl? She should have the right, no matter her age or the age of the instigator, to feel safe and not have that happen to her. It doesn't matter what the reason was that he did it. The result is still the same. The girl could feel humiliated either way. Yes, even at 5.
> 
> I am not about shaming sexuality at all, but I am about teaching respect for others and proper boundaries.


This clearly points out the differences, thank you.


----------



## Minxie

I understand what you are saying WRT motivation but...it IS a violation of the other person's autonomy and IS very aggressive. Were it my son who had been on the receiving end, I also would be offended on his behalf. Our personal space is just that: personal and we have the right to invite someone into it or not as we choose. Additionally, Bisou is right to be extra-vigilant with respect to these incidences as her son has a history of trauma and anger. He is currently seeing a therapist for these issues and she is exploring a number of other options.

At the daycare my son attends, boys and girls use toilets enclosed in a stall so there is some privacy and very little chance of seeing someone's genitalia. I'm okay with that. If he wants to be naked at home, okay by me. In our society, though, there are rules and he is expected to know that we don't disrobe in public just as he knows that we don't throw things at other people. In both cases, there are instances where it would be fine (a nude beach or a baseball game, respectively) but the GENERAL rule is that we keep our clothes on in public.

That is adorable; "girls have pajamas."









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kcparker*
> 
> I went back and read some of OP's other posts, and in light of those, I can see why others are expressing concern. However, I think that even if there is heightened concern, it's so very important to tease out all these different behavioral threads and really ask what is going on. Is this run-of-the-mill curiousity about how girls and boys are different? I know that no matter what, pulling down somebody else's pants violates their autonomy and is somewhat aggressive. But it could have been done in a low-impulse, I'm curious moment; he might have been trying to be playful or thought it was funny in a slapstick way; or he might have been doing it in an aggressive way intended to intimidate or humiliate the other child. Motivation is important in this act. If it was done because he was curious or "thought it would be funny," it's a teachable moment. If he did it with the intent to be mean or because he was angry and wanted to hurt this other child, then I think it falls into the continuum of concerning behavior that OP has posted about in the past...
> 
> ... And, at the daycare my son goes to, ALL the kids go on "Potty Posse" - boys and girls together - about once every 60-90 minutes. They have two potties and two sinks in a gang-style open area. They line up and take turns on the toilets, then stand and wash their hands while the next kids sit on the potties. They all see a heck of a lot of pants being pulled down and back up again and genital flashing, and I think it's a pretty normalizing way to deal with this issue in a preschool setting. On a lighter note, DS1 has been paying lots of attention to anatomical differences -- he told his aunt that he knows the difference between boys and girls: Boys have penises, and girls have pajamas.


----------



## Super~Single~Mama

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *missnoodlesmom*
> 
> Is wanting to look at other kids really that far off from figuring out your own body? I don't understand why child masterbation is "okay" but wondering what is going on in someone else's pants isn't. Kids love to classify and figure things out - this seems within that realm to me. That and a combination of getting such a big reaction from Mom when anything about his weiner comes up. It just seems pretty ridiculous that most of you think it's such an awful thing.


Wow. So b/c a child is curious about whats going on in someone elses pants its ok to put their hand in there? I think a better way to address that would be some books on the human anatomy, written in an age appropriate manner.

For a child to touch themselves is ok b/c they will stop when it starts making them uncomfortable, and they have control over their own genitals that way. To be ok with a child putting their hands down someone elses pants, teaches the other child that they don't have the right to bodily autonomy - which they do. Children need to be able to have boundaries just like adults do.


----------



## Owen'nZoe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Mom2Brendan*
> 
> If other kids are showing him 'habbits' like that there may be some issue going with their people that are in their family like if some kid talks about mouth on penis he is getting that from somewhere or penis in butts .
> 
> 
> 
> This is a good general rule, but it's not always true. DS2 comes up with this stuff completely on his own. If you heard/saw him in these discussions, there would be no question. I've also heard him make suggestions to touch his butthole (and I don't think it was actually confirmed that OP's ds said that). This is because he knows that it's not okay to talk like that, and he knows it gets a reaction. He has no conception of it in the sexual sense at all. He has said similar things about kissing his penis...and it's no different than when he talks about kissing his elbow or his nose or his ear or whatever.
> 
> Even the generally accepted red flags about sexual abuse issues aren't always red flags. I
Click to expand...

My experience with DS is almost exactly like yours. I also really do not think he has been sexually abused. But he goes through phases where he is obsessed with his penis and his anus, and has talked about kissing penises. He and his brother have also gone through periods where they are interested in seeing and/or touching each others' parts. We've had lots of good touch/bad touch discussions, and nothing either of them has said has raised any flags (and they seem very open to and unembarrassed about discussing it with me, which I've always found reassuring). He has also never, to my knowledge, experimented with kids other than his brother, so I don't think he's gotten these ideas from other kids. So, my vote is on the side of normal (if not super common) behavior, but maybe something to bring up to the therapist given his history.


----------



## Owen'nZoe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Super~Single~Mama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *missnoodlesmom*
> 
> Is wanting to look at other kids really that far off from figuring out your own body? I don't understand why child masterbation is "okay" but wondering what is going on in someone else's pants isn't. Kids love to classify and figure things out - this seems within that realm to me. That and a combination of getting such a big reaction from Mom when anything about his weiner comes up. It just seems pretty ridiculous that most of you think it's such an awful thing.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow. So b/c a child is curious about whats going on in someone elses pants its ok to put their hand in there? I think a better way to address that would be some books on the human anatomy, written in an age appropriate manner.
> 
> For a child to touch themselves is ok b/c they will stop when it starts making them uncomfortable, and they have control over their own genitals that way. To be ok with a child putting their hands down someone elses pants, teaches the other child that they don't have the right to bodily autonomy - which they do. Children need to be able to have boundaries just like adults do.
Click to expand...

 See, I didn't read her post that way at all. I think one can believe firmly that the behavior was normal and not really something to freak out about, and still think that a parent needs to step in to work on appropriate behavior and boundaries with the child.


----------



## loraxc

I know several male children who are pretty obsessed with this stuff, and there was some exploration right along these lines at DD's preschool. I have seen a 6yo chase around other kids with his penis out of his pants yelling "Touch my weiner!" and I am pretty darn sure there is no abuse history there. I know a lot of boys who are really into bodily function/gross-out talk and to some kids this is an extension of that. I don't find the OP's child's behavior all that shocking or necessarily that unusual; with the history, I'd be a bit more concerned, but I also think there is a very good chance he does not remember that.

OP, you sound to me like you are doing all the right things. I also want to say that I would NOT cut off contact with you if your child had done what he did with my DD; I would just be keeping a closer eye on them and talking openly, as you have done.


----------



## APToddlerMama

It is impossible to know any child's potential history of sexual abuse, especially if they are not your own child. I have had a unique perspective for my work of interviewing adults about their history of abuse (sexual and/or physical) and I was absolutely astonished by how many adults report having been abused as children by such a huge range of people. My work wasn't meant to be statistical, so I cannot say exactly what percentage had been abused, but off the top of my head, I would have guessed it to be around 1/3. The purpose of the work was not to look specifically at abuse at all...this was a fairly random sample. It was just part of the overall study. A kid running around doing what you're talking about would certainly concern me and if I was his mom, would definitely make me want to take a hard look at the possiblity of abuse.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *loraxc*
> I have seen a 6yo chase around other kids with his penis out of his pants yelling "Touch my weiner!" and I am pretty darn sure there is no abuse history there


----------



## MammaB21

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Super~Single~Mama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *missnoodlesmom*
> 
> Is wanting to look at other kids really that far off from figuring out your own body? I don't understand why child masterbation is "okay" but wondering what is going on in someone else's pants isn't. Kids love to classify and figure things out - this seems within that realm to me. That and a combination of getting such a big reaction from Mom when anything about his weiner comes up. It just seems pretty ridiculous that most of you think it's such an awful thing.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow. So b/c a child is curious about whats going on in someone elses pants its ok to put their hand in there? I think a better way to address that would be some books on the human anatomy, written in an age appropriate manner.
> 
> For a child to touch themselves is ok b/c they will stop when it starts making them uncomfortable, and they have control over their own genitals that way. To be ok with a child putting their hands down someone elses pants, teaches the other child that they don't have the right to bodily autonomy - which they do. Children need to be able to have boundaries just like adults do.
Click to expand...

I haven't heard anyone say it's okay for a child to put their hand down another child's pants. Where are you getting that? The point I am seeing (and the one I have already tried to make on this thread) is that feelings/thoughts/curiosities are quite different then actions. It is possible to redirect behavior and talk about/teach respect without shaming a child for the origin of the actions. I'd even go as far as to say that we should be reassuring a child with curiosity that it is perfectly normal to have those thoughts. It's no wonder our society is 'weird' (for lack of a better word) about sex.

I'd like to just point out as well that the assumption that any child who shows sexual or genital curiosity above and beyond what one person may consider 'normal' has been sexually molested could be taken quite offensively. I'd recommend to not throw that sort of thing around so loosely. I think it's important to be aware of the sings of sexual abuse, but blanket labeling of children none of us has ever even met in real life is getting kind of out of hand.


----------



## contactmaya

> I haven't heard anyone say it's okay for a child to put their hand down another child's pants. Where are you getting that? The point I am seeing (and the one I have already tried to make on this thread) is that feelings/thoughts/curiosities are quite different then actions. It is possible to redirect behavior and talk about/teach respect without shaming a child for the origin of the actions. I'd even go as far as to say that we should be reassuring a child with curiosity that it is perfectly normal to have those thoughts. It's no wonder our society is 'weird' (for lack of a better word) about sex.
> 
> I'd like to just point out as well that the assumption that any child who shows sexual or genital curiosity above and beyond what one person may consider 'normal' has been sexually molested could be taken quite offensively. I'd recommend to not throw that sort of thing around so loosely. I think it's important to be aware of the sings of sexual abuse, but blanket labeling of children none of us has ever even met in real life is getting kind of out of hand.


Im with you on this one MammaB21. People/chilren express their sexual nature differently. The important thing is to establish boundaries, and teach the importance of bodily autonomy. I still dont think there is anything abnormal in this child's behavior.


----------



## Tjej

I don't think I'm a big prude and I sure do my best to encourage healthy views of sexuality in our household. We all share one bathroom, so we all see eachother often enough around here (just as a frame of reference for you).

I don't know if the boy is acting out abuse or if he's just being a silly boy. I DO know that the one boy that age whose mother knew he had done an "exploration" with a little girl at daycare was open with me about it BEFORE we had an incident and we didn't leave our kids unsupervised for quite a number of months after it happened. Well, even now a year or two later I don't send the kids upstairs alone together because I know my daughter and the boy and for sexual and behavioral reasons it just doesn't seem wise. I don't hold anything against the kid, we're still good friends, BUT I was INFORMED and we MONITORED. The OP didn't do that right away. I can see how that would be upsetting.

Tjej


----------



## Tjej

I tried to edit, but if it matters the boy was younger than the OP's son (4 or 5 at the time, IIRC).

Tjej


----------



## Bisou

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kcparker*
> 
> Has he asked you questions about sex and gender differences, reproduction, where did I come from, and of that sort of stuff? Can he articulate his motivations for pulling his pants down and wanting little girls to do the same?


In response to your question, he has said, "I am curious!" as his explanation for why this has happened. He often laughs about it ("We saw each others' penises!") and acts like it's a funny thing. Honestly, I don't think there's anything sexual about it, in the sense of wanting to be involved in a sexual or arousing act. My son isn't even sexual with himself as far as touching himself. It's not like he's obsessed with sexuality or stimulation. All of his discussion about "private areas" revolves around joking about it and laughing about it and shaking his booty around, like other kids do. He only showed shame about it when he had been told a few times NOT to be pulling his pants down and still did it, yet he didn't keep it a secret from me. I think if he hadn't been told a few times not to do this, he would've just been laughing and saying "I saw her private area!!!"

Now you could say that the fact he's done this when he's been told not to shows a problem or obsession, but like others mentioned (e.g. "I tell my son not to hit his brother, but he still does it anyway"), I also tell him not to do a lot of things that he still does! Isn't that part of being five?

There's also been a lot of talk at school amongst the other boys with them saying things to each other like "kiss my butt" and "smell my butt" (clothed, putting their butts in each others' faces and laughing). It's very clear to me that in his mind and the other kids who are saying these things that this is 1) funny, and 2) disgusting. It seems like very typical boy stuff to me. None of this has been initiated by my son, but by the other kids at school.

I agree with what some of the other posters have said, that just because he's had other issues, I personally don't think that this means that ALL of his behavior is abnormal. I did talk about this in detail with his therapist today (when my son wasn't there), and she said she thought this was VERY normal for this age, even asking another child to touch his butt hole, which my son said didn't happen. My son's therapist said fascination with genitals and even anuses is very normal for this age, and that just because he asked someone to touch that area doesn't mean it's sexual. She did say that since he seems to be having issues with keeping his hands to himself and his pants on (even though she said what he's doing is completely normal, even if touching was involved, which it hasn't been yet), that he shouldn't be taken to an play area where I can't see him, which is a conclusion I have already reached.

Honestly, I believe him, as I have seen this other little girl (my friend's daughter) blatantly lie to her mom MANY times. I have witnessed incidents where she wasn't just misinterpreting what happened, but flat out lying about it, My son has only lied to me once or twice. He rarely lies. So this makes it very hard for me to completely believe what my friend's daughter said, since she seems to have a significant issue with lying.

Now, all of this said, it's not like I am just saying, "This is all completely fine and normal," but I don't think he's a few years away from becoming a sexual predator, as some seem to have suggested. I think his behavior seems like normal curiosity and silliness. BUT I am still going to make sure that aside from school (which I can't monitor, and that bugs me) I won't put him into situations where he might be tempted to continue this behavior. I will have to make sure I can always see what he's doing. This means we can no longer go to our favorite place for him to play, which will be a huge loss for us (especially for me as a single mom, as I could sit there and work on my laptop while he played), but I don't want this to become a compulsive behavior. This means I won't be able to take him to the gym childcare center so I can work out, as they don't supervise the children there as closely as they could, and there are some play structures there that would also allow him to be hidden. I am not sure if he'd try this with a child he just met, as this has only happened with kids he knows, but I want to be careful. I don't think he has a serious problem, but I don't want anything to develop into a serious problem, so I am going to remove him from the opportunity to be involved in these activities, except for school, which I don't have control over. I have talked about this with his teacher and the principal, but there are times when he might be alone with other kids, like in the bathroom.

I have ordered a bunch of books about the human body and keeping your private areas private also, so hopefully that will help with his curiosity.


----------



## Bisou

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Mom2Brendan*
> 
> If other kids are showing him 'habbits' like that there may be some issue going with their people that are in their family like if some kid talks about mouth on penis he is getting that from somewhere or penis in butts .
> 
> 
> 
> This is a good general rule, but it's not always true. DS2 comes up with this stuff completely on his own. If you heard/saw him in these discussions, there would be no question. I've also heard him make suggestions to touch his butthole (and I don't think it was actually confirmed that OP's ds said that). This is because he knows that it's not okay to talk like that, and he knows it gets a reaction. He has no conception of it in the sexual sense at all. He has said similar things about kissing his penis...and it's no different than when he talks about kissing his elbow or his nose or his ear or whatever.
> 
> Even the generally accepted red flags about sexual abuse issues aren't always red flags. I
Click to expand...

StormBride:

I agree with you that at this age, sometimes kids (especially boys, it seems) say things to get a rise out of you. My son has never said "Kiss my butthole" or something like that to me, but I could see him saying it simply because he KNOWS that's something that you don't do, and that it's a little gross. He's really into the gross out factor. I don't think it's sexual for him. I think he's trying to be controversial.


----------



## Bisou

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *anne1140*
> 
> I know your son is not doing exactly what I described above, but the pulling a girl's pants down concerns me. For those who think it's not a problem, how would you feel if you were that girl? She should have the right, no matter her age or the age of the instigator, to feel safe and not have that happen to her. It doesn't matter what the reason was that he did it. The result is still the same. The girl could feel humiliated either way. Yes, even at 5.
> 
> So that's where I stand on it. I have a boy this year who is overly infatuated with his penis, and to an extent, I think it's normal, but I do have a problem with him chasing other boys around the bathroom with his pants down (he has done this), because he is involving other boys who tell him pretty clearly not to do it.
> 
> I am not about shaming sexuality at all, but I am about teaching respect for others and proper boundaries.


I COMPLETELY and TOTALLY agree with this. I don't think it's ok for him to pull down others' pants or force them to do anything. I think he was trying to do this to be funny, but I don't think that makes it ok! Just like it's not funny if he punches someone on the arm and says it's "play fighting, not real fighting" or anything else. Just because you think something's funny doesn't mean the other person does, and some behaviors are just not acceptable. I am 100% in agreement with you on teaching respect for others' boundaries.

As far as I know, there has only been one incident of doing something without the other person's consent, though the incident with my friend's daughter remains murky for reasons I've already explained, including her penchant for lying.


----------



## Bisou

I think the Miss Noodles wasn't saying it was ok to "put your hand in there." I think she was saying it's normal to do a "you show me yours, I'll show you mine" sort of thing. When force is involved, that's a totally different thing, and I don't think that's what she was saying at all. She specifically said "wanting to look at other kids."

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Super~Single~Mama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *missnoodlesmom*
> 
> Is wanting to look at other kids really that far off from figuring out your own body? I don't understand why child masterbation is "okay" but wondering what is going on in someone else's pants isn't. Kids love to classify and figure things out - this seems within that realm to me. That and a combination of getting such a big reaction from Mom when anything about his weiner comes up. It just seems pretty ridiculous that most of you think it's such an awful thing.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow. So b/c a child is curious about whats going on in someone elses pants its ok to put their hand in there? I think a better way to address that would be some books on the human anatomy, written in an age appropriate manner.
> 
> For a child to touch themselves is ok b/c they will stop when it starts making them uncomfortable, and they have control over their own genitals that way. To be ok with a child putting their hands down someone elses pants, teaches the other child that they don't have the right to bodily autonomy - which they do. Children need to be able to have boundaries just like adults do.
Click to expand...


----------



## fairejour

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bisou*
> 
> 
> 
> I COMPLETELY and TOTALLY agree with this. I don't think it's ok for him to pull down others' pants or force them to do anything. I think he was trying to do this to be funny, but I don't think that makes it ok! Just like it's not funny if he punches someone on the arm and says it's "play fighting, not real fighting" or anything else. Just because you think something's funny doesn't mean the other person does, and some behaviors are just not acceptable. I am 100% in agreement with you on teaching respect for others' boundaries.
> 
> As far as I know, there has only been one incident of doing something without the other person's consent, though the incident with my friend's daughter remains murky for reasons I've already explained, including her penchant for lying.


Do you understand that this child was sexually assaulted? Her genitals were exposed, without her consent, by force. Even if that is the only time it happened against someone's will, it is unacceptable.


----------



## yokosmile

all living things are sexual. we have genitals from birth. sexual beings, sexual nature, etc. and that's ok. you guide the kids along down the path of our culture and they learn restraint. no big deal. : )

op, i think you are handing this fine. having a levelheaded parent is a great blessing.


----------



## Bisou

I agree that it's not ok to pull down someone's pants, but I think calling it a "sexual assault" is WAY beyond what is called for here. He is FIVE YEARS OLD, not 10, not 15. He has no idea what sex is, and he's just doing something that he thinks is funny. Inappropriate? YES. But I think calling a five year old boy pulling down another child's pants a sexual assault is not accurate in any way.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fairejour*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Bisou*
> 
> 
> 
> I COMPLETELY and TOTALLY agree with this. I don't think it's ok for him to pull down others' pants or force them to do anything. I think he was trying to do this to be funny, but I don't think that makes it ok! Just like it's not funny if he punches someone on the arm and says it's "play fighting, not real fighting" or anything else. Just because you think something's funny doesn't mean the other person does, and some behaviors are just not acceptable. I am 100% in agreement with you on teaching respect for others' boundaries.
> 
> As far as I know, there has only been one incident of doing something without the other person's consent, though the incident with my friend's daughter remains murky for reasons I've already explained, including her penchant for lying.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you understand that this child was sexually assaulted? Her genitals were exposed, without her consent, by force. Even if that is the only time it happened against someone's will, it is unacceptable.
Click to expand...


----------



## Sharlla

Neither of my boys ever engaged in any kind of sex play. I did when I was that age but I'm pretty sure I was molested really young and cant remember it.


----------



## fairejour

It doesn't matter what he thought, it matters what happened to her. It was by force, and against her will and it involved her genitals. Please see this from the victim's perspective. I understand that you feel the need to defend your child, but this is very very serious and he is continuing to act out, in-spite of therapy, I think it is time to consult another therapist.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Bisou*
> 
> I agree that it's not ok to pull down someone's pants, but I think calling it a "sexual assault" is WAY beyond what is called for here. He is FIVE YEARS OLD, not 10, not 15. He has no idea what sex is, and he's just doing something that he thinks is funny. Inappropriate? YES. But I think calling a five year old boy pulling down another child's pants a sexual assault is not accurate in any way.


----------



## Sharlla

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *~PurityLake~*
> 
> If I were your friend, I would have cut off all contact between my daughter and your son, as well.


same here. my friend has a son that has engaged with some pretty sexual activities with kids younger than him. her son is in therapy now but I don't want my son around him at all. so they haven't seen each other in almost a year.


----------



## MammaB21

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fairejour*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Bisou*
> 
> 
> 
> I COMPLETELY and TOTALLY agree with this. I don't think it's ok for him to pull down others' pants or force them to do anything. I think he was trying to do this to be funny, but I don't think that makes it ok! Just like it's not funny if he punches someone on the arm and says it's "play fighting, not real fighting" or anything else. Just because you think something's funny doesn't mean the other person does, and some behaviors are just not acceptable. I am 100% in agreement with you on teaching respect for others' boundaries.
> 
> As far as I know, there has only been one incident of doing something without the other person's consent, though the incident with my friend's daughter remains murky for reasons I've already explained, including her penchant for lying.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you understand that this child was sexually assaulted? Her genitals were exposed, without her consent, by force. Even if that is the only time it happened against someone's will, it is unacceptable.
Click to expand...

Did he actually do it against her will? Did he sneak up on her and pull her pants down? Did he ask and she said 'no' and he did it anyway? I guess I missed that he did this against her will. I thought I read the OP specifically say that he asked the girl to pull her pants down.

Any which way you cut it, I do agree it's kind of a stretch to be labeling a 5 year old as a sexual assailant. If he actually did pull down another child's pants against their will (and I would consider that to mean that the child said no and he did it forcefully, OR that he ran up and pulled their pants down without asking) then the problem still remains that this is disrespectful. He needs a good lesson in boundaries. He doesn't need to be added to the sexual predator list. Sheesh.

As a child I remember kids doing this A LOT!!! It was a very popular game. Some kids would dare another kid to run and pull down so and so's pants. They would work up the courage to do it and then everyone would have a good laugh. It was mean. But it wasn't a sexual assault in the context that some people here are referring to it. I even remember one incident in first grade where the teacher left the classroom for a minute. There was a boy who 'liked' me and him and his friends chased me around the room and held me down and 'kissed my privates' as the other kids were chanting it. My pants were on. It all happened in all of 3 seconds. It was traumatizing in the moment and it was mean. He should have gotten in trouble for it but I never told anyone. Looking back at it, though, I still wouldn't refer to it as sexual assault. Maybe someone else in my position would, but I didn't even remember it until just now. I don't think he was a bad kid, and I don't think what happened was beyond the realm of normal for a bunch of 6 year olds left to their own devices in a classroom. Almost the entire class participated and not one kid seemed to think it was weird. This kid is now a well adjusted man and perfectly normal from what I can tell. He wasn't a predator in the making. He was just a kid.


----------



## Bisou

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *MammaB21*
> 
> Did he actually do it against her will? Did he sneak up on her and pull her pants down? Did he ask and she said 'no' and he did it anyway? I guess I missed that he did this against her will. I thought I read the OP specifically say that he asked the girl to pull her pants down.
> 
> Any which way you cut it, I do agree it's kind of a stretch to be labeling a 5 year old as a sexual assailant. If he actually did pull down another child's pants against their will (and I would consider that to mean that the child said no and he did it forcefully, OR that he ran up and pulled their pants down without asking) then the problem still remains that this is disrespectful. He needs a good lesson in boundaries. He doesn't need to be added to the sexual predator list. Sheesh.
> 
> As a child I remember kids doing this A LOT!!! It was a very popular game. Some kids would dare another kid to run and pull down so and so's pants. They would work up the courage to do it and then everyone would have a good laugh. It was mean. But it wasn't a sexual assault in the context that some people here are referring to it. I even remember one incident in first grade where the teacher left the classroom for a minute. There was a boy who 'liked' me and him and his friends chased me around the room and held me down and 'kissed my privates' as the other kids were chanting it. My pants were on. It all happened in all of 3 seconds. It was traumatizing in the moment and it was mean. He should have gotten in trouble for it but I never told anyone. Looking back at it, though, I still wouldn't refer to it as sexual assault. Maybe someone else in my position would, but I didn't even remember it until just now. I don't think he was a bad kid, and I don't think what happened was beyond the realm of normal for a bunch of 6 year olds left to their own devices in a classroom. Almost the entire class participated and not one kid seemed to think it was weird. This kid is now a well adjusted man and perfectly normal from what I can tell. He wasn't a predator in the making. He was just a kid.


There was one incident at school where he pulled another girl's pants down, but I don't think she said no. I think it was just a quick pulling down of pants. I haven't asked him in a lot of detail about that incident, but I made it very clear that it is NOT ok to pull down someone else's pants.

This also happened to me at least two or three times in school (having someone pull down my pants), and while it was VERY embarrassing, I didn't feel traumatized by the incident. It was just another one of those things that kids often do. I was way more upset the time a boy took my shoes and threw them off the school bus!

In the incident with my friend's daughter, he ASKED her to pull down her pants, and she did so. According to him, she did so willingly and was laughing about it.


----------



## MammaB21

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tjej*
> 
> I don't think I'm a big prude and I sure do my best to encourage healthy views of sexuality in our household. We all share one bathroom, so we all see eachother often enough around here (just as a frame of reference for you).
> 
> I don't know if the boy is acting out abuse or if he's just being a silly boy. I DO know that the one boy that age whose mother knew he had done an "exploration" with a little girl at daycare was open with me about it BEFORE we had an incident and we didn't leave our kids unsupervised for quite a number of months after it happened. Well, even now a year or two later I don't send the kids upstairs alone together because I know my daughter and the boy and for sexual and behavioral reasons it just doesn't seem wise. I don't hold anything against the kid, we're still good friends, BUT I was INFORMED and we MONITORED. The OP didn't do that right away. I can see how that would be upsetting.
> 
> Tjej


I don't get this. I don't see where the OP wasn't completely forthcoming about what happened and tried to set boundaries and work through it with her friend. If you're insinuating that she should have 'warned' her friend BEFORE anything happened, I'll have to respectfully but firmly disagree with that tactic. Think of it this way, if your child hit one of their siblings in a heated moment, would you forever 'warn' all of your play dates that your child is a 'hitter' for the sake of full disclosure? It's extremely unfair to that child to be labeled as something, no matter how many times it happens. I sure wouldn't want to call up my friend and disclose every little negative thing my child had done before getting our kids together. THEIR KIDS!!! They mess up. It's how they learn. It's our job to guide them, not shut them down and back them into a lifelong label at age 5.

We've all agreed that what the OP's son did was out of line and that action needs to be dealt with. But honestly, what should she do that she isn't already doing? She's talked to her son about why it's disrespectful and not nice to pressure other kids. She has asked him questions to try and get to the bottom of why he's doing it. She has brought him to counseling and talked with his therapist about this. She has talked to the school and asked the teacher to keep an extra eye on things. What else would you all suggest she do?


----------



## Bisou

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *MammaB21*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Tjej*
> 
> I don't think I'm a big prude and I sure do my best to encourage healthy views of sexuality in our household. We all share one bathroom, so we all see eachother often enough around here (just as a frame of reference for you).
> 
> I don't know if the boy is acting out abuse or if he's just being a silly boy. I DO know that the one boy that age whose mother knew he had done an "exploration" with a little girl at daycare was open with me about it BEFORE we had an incident and we didn't leave our kids unsupervised for quite a number of months after it happened. Well, even now a year or two later I don't send the kids upstairs alone together because I know my daughter and the boy and for sexual and behavioral reasons it just doesn't seem wise. I don't hold anything against the kid, we're still good friends, BUT I was INFORMED and we MONITORED. The OP didn't do that right away. I can see how that would be upsetting.
> 
> Tjej
> 
> 
> 
> I don't get this. I don't see where the OP wasn't completely forthcoming about what happened and tried to set boundaries and work through it with her friend. If you're insinuating that she should have 'warned' her friend BEFORE anything happened, I'll have to respectfully but firmly disagree with that tactic. Think of it this way, if your child hit one of their siblings in a heated moment, would you forever 'warn' all of your play dates that your child is a 'hitter' for the sake of full disclosure? It's extremely unfair to that child to be labeled as something, no matter how many times it happens. I sure wouldn't want to call up my friend and disclose every little negative thing my child had done before getting our kids together. THEIR KIDS!!! They mess up. It's how they learn. It's our job to guide them, not shut them down and back them into a lifelong label at age 5.
> 
> We've all agreed that what the OP's son did was out of line and that action needs to be dealt with. But honestly, what should she do that she isn't already doing? She's talked to her son about why it's disrespectful and not nice to pressure other kids. She has asked him questions to try and get to the bottom of why he's doing it. She has brought him to counseling and talked with his therapist about this. She has talked to the school and asked the teacher to keep an extra eye on things. What else would you all suggest she do?
Click to expand...

Tjej: If you're going to go with that line of logic, my friend ALSO didn't inform me that her daughter had been involved in these sorts of interactions multiple times with multiple kids at school over a two year period, to the point that the principal and counselors and multiple people were involved in trying to get it to stop. There were even investigations going on about this at her school! It sounds quite serious. My friend's daughter already had problems with this same issue, and I wasn't notified either.

Honestly, in thinking about the situation, I think her daughter already knew she wasn't supposed to be engaging in this kind of behavior, she has a propensity towards lying (which I have personally witnessed), and I think it's very possible that she fabricated this story in order to excuse her own participation in the activities.

If my son really did what he said he did, which was asked her nicely to pull down her pants and he pulled down his own pants, I guess I don't see what's so abnormal about this. Do I want to just say, "This is normal, no big whup"? NO. Do I want him to continue because it's "normal"? NO. But some of the comments that have been made, like he's steps away from being a sexual offender and that he committed a sexual assault (I guess against the girl in his class whose pants he pulled down), I think that's ridiculous.

That said, I think it would be stupid not to closely monitor this situation and not to prevent him from being in situations where this could happen again. Better safe than sorry, I think.


----------



## Tjej

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MammaB21*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Tjej*
> 
> I don't think I'm a big prude and I sure do my best to encourage healthy views of sexuality in our household. We all share one bathroom, so we all see eachother often enough around here (just as a frame of reference for you).
> 
> I don't know if the boy is acting out abuse or if he's just being a silly boy. I DO know that the one boy that age whose mother knew he had done an "exploration" with a little girl at daycare was open with me about it BEFORE we had an incident and we didn't leave our kids unsupervised for quite a number of months after it happened. Well, even now a year or two later I don't send the kids upstairs alone together because I know my daughter and the boy and for sexual and behavioral reasons it just doesn't seem wise. I don't hold anything against the kid, we're still good friends, BUT I was INFORMED and we MONITORED. The OP didn't do that right away. I can see how that would be upsetting.
> 
> Tjej
> 
> 
> 
> I don't get this. I don't see where the OP wasn't completely forthcoming about what happened and tried to set boundaries and work through it with her friend. If you're insinuating that she should have 'warned' her friend BEFORE anything happened, I'll have to respectfully but firmly disagree with that tactic. Think of it this way, if your child hit one of their siblings in a heated moment, would you forever 'warn' all of your play dates that your child is a 'hitter' for the sake of full disclosure? It's extremely unfair to that child to be labeled as something, no matter how many times it happens. I sure wouldn't want to call up my friend and disclose every little negative thing my child had done before getting our kids together. THEIR KIDS!!! They mess up. It's how they learn. It's our job to guide them, not shut them down and back them into a lifelong label at age 5.
> 
> We've all agreed that what the OP's son did was out of line and that action needs to be dealt with. But honestly, what should she do that she isn't already doing? She's talked to her son about why it's disrespectful and not nice to pressure other kids. She has asked him questions to try and get to the bottom of why he's doing it. She has brought him to counseling and talked with his therapist about this. She has talked to the school and asked the teacher to keep an extra eye on things. What else would you all suggest she do?
Click to expand...

If my child had hit kids a number of times recently, you bet I would tell my friend - especially if my kid and hers might be out of eyesight (I likely might not allow them out of sight because of it). No, I wouldn't talk about it if my kid hit his sister once recently, but I think we all know there is a big difference between kids 1x lashing out at a sibling and repeated behavior with peers.

It sounds like the OP is taking the necessary steps now and is monitoring her son. Sounds good. I still totally get why her friend would be upset, and if the OP doesn't get it, then it will be hard for them to work it out.

Tjej


----------



## MammaB21

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tjej*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *MammaB21*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Tjej*
> 
> I don't think I'm a big prude and I sure do my best to encourage healthy views of sexuality in our household. We all share one bathroom, so we all see eachother often enough around here (just as a frame of reference for you).
> 
> I don't know if the boy is acting out abuse or if he's just being a silly boy. I DO know that the one boy that age whose mother knew he had done an "exploration" with a little girl at daycare was open with me about it BEFORE we had an incident and we didn't leave our kids unsupervised for quite a number of months after it happened. Well, even now a year or two later I don't send the kids upstairs alone together because I know my daughter and the boy and for sexual and behavioral reasons it just doesn't seem wise. I don't hold anything against the kid, we're still good friends, BUT I was INFORMED and we MONITORED. The OP didn't do that right away. I can see how that would be upsetting.
> 
> Tjej
> 
> 
> 
> I don't get this. I don't see where the OP wasn't completely forthcoming about what happened and tried to set boundaries and work through it with her friend. If you're insinuating that she should have 'warned' her friend BEFORE anything happened, I'll have to respectfully but firmly disagree with that tactic. Think of it this way, if your child hit one of their siblings in a heated moment, would you forever 'warn' all of your play dates that your child is a 'hitter' for the sake of full disclosure? It's extremely unfair to that child to be labeled as something, no matter how many times it happens. I sure wouldn't want to call up my friend and disclose every little negative thing my child had done before getting our kids together. THEIR KIDS!!! They mess up. It's how they learn. It's our job to guide them, not shut them down and back them into a lifelong label at age 5.
> 
> We've all agreed that what the OP's son did was out of line and that action needs to be dealt with. But honestly, what should she do that she isn't already doing? She's talked to her son about why it's disrespectful and not nice to pressure other kids. She has asked him questions to try and get to the bottom of why he's doing it. She has brought him to counseling and talked with his therapist about this. She has talked to the school and asked the teacher to keep an extra eye on things. What else would you all suggest she do?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If my child had hit kids a number of times recently,
Click to expand...

Would you consider 3-4 times (a couple of which may have been hearsay or fabrications) in the past 2-3 years 'recently'. Because that's basically what the OP was dealing with. I think she offered up the history for full disclosure for a proper answer to her question on this thread. It's not like all of these things happened one right after another, though.

My daughter and my nephew get together once a week, and every week we have at least one instance where a kid comes running in saying so and so hit so and so, or cousin pulled my hair, threw that toy at me etc. That doesn't mean I 'warn' all of our other play dates that there is a potential for DD to hit their kid. I think all kids carry that potential and I feel equally about genital curiosity. Any time I get my daughter together with a peer I'm taking the risk of the kids fighting or exploring or getting into something they shouldn't.


----------



## Daffodil

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fairejour*
> 
> It doesn't matter what he thought, it matters what happened to her. It was by force, and against her will and it involved her genitals. Please see this from the victim's perspective.


When you look at it from the victim's perspective, it seems really hard to justify calling it "sexual assault" when a 5 year old pulls down another 5 year old's pants. Most 5 year olds don't connect their genitals to sex. Many of them still have no idea there is such a thing as sex. I'm pretty sure most 5 year old girls who get their pants pulled down are not going to have feelings anything like the feelings of a teenager or adult who is sexually assaulted. They're more likely to think, "How embarassing!" or "How annoying!" or "Stupid boy, I'll pull his pants down!" or maybe even think it's kind of funny.

I'm not saying it's just harmless fun when a kid pulls down another kid's pants. I'm just saying I think it's going way too far to call it "sexual assault" when the kids involved aren't old enough to think of it in sexual terms.


----------



## fairejour

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Daffodil*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *fairejour*
> 
> It doesn't matter what he thought, it matters what happened to her. It was by force, and against her will and it involved her genitals. Please see this from the victim's perspective.
> 
> 
> 
> When you look at it from the victim's perspective, it seems really hard to justify calling it "sexual assault" when a 5 year old pulls down another 5 year old's pants. Most 5 year olds don't connect their genitals to sex. Many of them still have no idea there is such a thing as sex. I'm pretty sure most 5 year old girls who get their pants pulled down are not going to have feelings anything like the feelings of a teenager or adult who is sexually assaulted. They're more likely to think, "How embarassing!" or "How annoying!" or "Stupid boy, I'll pull his pants down!" or maybe even think it's kind of funny.
> 
> I'm not saying it's just harmless fun when a kid pulls down another kid's pants. I'm just saying I think it's going way too far to call it "sexual assault" when the kids involved aren't old enough to think of it in sexual terms.
Click to expand...

Except in this situation the child DOES have a history of sexual abuse, so he is already sexualized and at high risk of acting out sexually....which it seems that he is already doing.


----------



## Daffodil

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fairejour*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Daffodil*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *fairejour*
> 
> It doesn't matter what he thought, it matters what happened to her. It was by force, and against her will and it involved her genitals. Please see this from the victim's perspective.
> 
> 
> 
> When you look at it from the victim's perspective, it seems really hard to justify calling it "sexual assault" when a 5 year old pulls down another 5 year old's pants. Most 5 year olds don't connect their genitals to sex. Many of them still have no idea there is such a thing as sex. I'm pretty sure most 5 year old girls who get their pants pulled down are not going to have feelings anything like the feelings of a teenager or adult who is sexually assaulted. They're more likely to think, "How embarassing!" or "How annoying!" or "Stupid boy, I'll pull his pants down!" or maybe even think it's kind of funny.
> 
> I'm not saying it's just harmless fun when a kid pulls down another kid's pants. I'm just saying I think it's going way too far to call it "sexual assault" when the kids involved aren't old enough to think of it in sexual terms.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Except in this situation the child DOES have a history of sexual abuse, so he is already sexualized and at high risk of acting out sexually....which it seems that he is already doing.
Click to expand...

Actually, the way the OP described the abuse, it involved injuries to the genitals, but didn't appear to be sexual.


----------



## APToddlerMama

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fairejour*
> 
> It doesn't matter what he thought, it matters what happened to her. It was by force, and against her will and it involved her genitals. Please see this from the victim's perspective. I understand that you feel the need to defend your child, but this is very very serious and he is continuing to act out, in-spite of therapy, I think it is time to consult another therapist.


Agrred. new therapist for sure.


----------



## Bisou

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fairejour*
> 
> Except in this situation the child DOES have a history of sexual abuse, so he is already sexualized and at high risk of acting out sexually....which it seems that he is already doing.


Whether or not my son was sexually abused remains unclear. There was physical DAMAGE done to his testicles, but he has never shown any signs of acting out sexually in terms of wanting to do sexual-type acts with himself or others. He does not engage in self-stimulation (even though that's normal!) and he's never tried to touch other people. If it was sexual, I would think he would be engaging in sexually arousing acts with himself and/or others. His whole energy around this has been that it's funny, not sexual.


----------



## velochic

I have read, but up until now haven't posted. I have an only girl, and at that, one that has a keen sense of propriety and respect for boundaries, so has never engaged in play with others involving the genitals (because she;s been told it's improper, but that sexual curiosity, in general is healthy). I didn't really think I had anything to contribute. But the last page or so has made me think more about this.

The root question for me is that even though he has been told over and over and over again that this kind of "play" is not appropriate, why is he continuing to engage in it? Sure, it's normal (FTR, I think my dd is also normal having not "played doctor"). But at 5, most kids understand after repeatedly being told to stop a particular behavior, that they need to stop doing it. THAT seems to be the boundary that he's not able to respect. And it could cause problems in the future, which is why it could be worrisome. If he can't respect boundaries (even if he thinks it's funny to not respect them), then... yeah things could get worse in the future. It doesn't matter if the play is sexual or not at this age. It will be one of these days. Just a thought.


----------



## pupsnelda

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velochic*
> 
> I have read, but up until now haven't posted. I have an only girl, and at that, one that has a keen sense of propriety and respect for boundaries, so has never engaged in play with others involving the genitals (because she;s been told it's improper, but that sexual curiosity, in general is healthy). I didn't really think I had anything to contribute. But the last page or so has made me think more about this.
> 
> The root question for me is that even though he has been told over and over and over again that this kind of "play" is not appropriate, why is he continuing to engage in it? Sure, it's normal (FTR, I think my dd is also normal having not "played doctor"). But at 5, most kids understand after repeatedly being told to stop a particular behavior, that they need to stop doing it. THAT seems to be the boundary that he's not able to respect. And it could cause problems in the future, which is why it could be worrisome. If he can't respect boundaries (even if he thinks it's funny to not respect them), then... yeah things could get worse in the future. It doesn't matter if the play is sexual or not at this age. It will be one of these days. Just a thought.


----------



## Storm Bride

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fairejour*
> 
> It doesn't matter what he thought, it matters what happened to her. It was by force, and against her will and it involved her genitals. Please see this from the victim's perspective.


FWIW, I've seen things like that happen at that age, when I was that age. None of the girls (or boys) involved ever manifested any signs of feeling like victims, or any behaviour one would associate with sexual assault. In general, unless adults put that on them, the kids don't tend to see it as anything but another form of rough-housing. I've personally never known (or been) a five year old girl who would see a classmate/playmate pulling down her pants as being much, if any, different from a classmate/playmate pulling her pigtail or untying her shoelace. They wouldn't like any of it...but they also wouldn't feel sexually assaulted.

The only way to see this from the victim's perspective is to find out what the victim's perspective actually is.


----------



## Bisou

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *fairejour*
> 
> It doesn't matter what he thought, it matters what happened to her. It was by force, and against her will and it involved her genitals. Please see this from the victim's perspective.
> 
> 
> 
> FWIW, I've seen things like that happen at that age, when I was that age. None of the girls (or boys) involved ever manifested any signs of feeling like victims, or any behaviour one would associate with sexual assault. In general, unless adults put that on them, the kids don't tend to see it as anything but another form of rough-housing. I've personally never known (or been) a five year old girl who would see a classmate/playmate pulling down her pants as being much, if any, different from a classmate/playmate pulling her pigtail or untying her shoelace. They wouldn't like any of it...but they also wouldn't feel sexually assaulted.
> 
> The only way to see this from the victim's perspective is to find out what the victim's perspective actually is.
Click to expand...

I agree with what you've said exactly.

The only thought I've had that might change this perspective (that five-year-old kids don't take this as a sexual assault, but just another lame thing that kids do to each other) is that if the girl whose pants my son pulled down had been sexually abused in her life already, she might feel differently about it. But I think most kids wouldn't be that traumatized by it. It happened to me when I was older (11-12) in middle school, and while I was extremely embarrassed and mad that people saw my butt for a few seconds, I didn't feel sexually assaulted. I was just pissed.

Yes, my son does need to learn to respect boundaries, listen to "No" (from me and others!), and keep his hands to himself, but he's having this same problem in many different areas of his life, and we are working on it.


----------



## Daffodil

With this thread in mind, I asked my 5 year old today how he would feel if someone at school pulled his pants down - if he would think it was kind of funny, or if he would be really annoyed, or embarrassed. He said he would be annoyed and embarrassed, especially if people saw his butt. I asked him if it would be more embarrassing for people to see his butt or his penis, and he wasn't sure. He asked me which I thought was worse, and I said people usually think the penis is a little more private. He said, "But poop is more disgusting than pee." So he's only thinking about the bathroom connection, not about sex at all - even though he has actually heard about sex, and that sex=penis in vagina, which is more than a lot of 5 year olds know.


----------



## ~PurityLake~

Daffodil, your post made me want to test out the question on my 5 year old. Her response was different than your son's. She said having her pants pulled down would be annoying and embarrassing. I asked why and she answered, she doesn't want anyone to see her vulva. I then asked which would be worse, if other kids saw your vulva, or if they saw your butt and she answered, it would be worse if they saw my vulva because it is more private.


----------



## ecoteat

I'm finding these last two comments about how other 5 year old view their butt and genitals interesting. My dd is 4.5 and I'd bet she wouldn't care one bit if her butt and/or vulva were suddenly exposed. But maybe if I asked her I'd be surprised by her answer. I agree with velochic that the real issue here isn't sexual, it's behavioral. If he's choosing to not follow direction about what is appropriate behavior, whether it's sharing genitals or screaming at the library or biting or whatever, that's the root of this and that may lead to bigger problems if not corrected. I teach older kids and I get to know them and their families very well in my tiny school. Most of my middle school students I've known since they were 5 or 6. The ones that were not responding to behavior redirection when they were little are often the ones that are big behavior problems as adolescents. So how can you teach your son to respect boundaries, whatever they may be? Well, that I don't know without knowing you and your son (and even if I did, I certainly couldn't claim to know what would fix this issue!). A 5-year-old doesn't usually associate their genitals with sexual pleasure. I think this kind of behavior, in their minds, is more closely connected to bathroom humor and silliness.


----------



## Daffodil

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ecoteat*
> 
> I'm finding these last two comments about how other 5 year old view their butt and genitals interesting. My dd is 4.5 and I'd bet she wouldn't care one bit if her butt and/or vulva were suddenly exposed.


I think I was probably leading my DS a bit by suggesting that he might be annoyed or embarrassed if someone pulled his pants down. My guess about how he would actually feel is that if a kid he liked did it in a good-natured way and acted like it was a funny game, he would be slightly annoyed at most, or maybe just laugh about it, but that if a kid he didn't like did it in a mean-spirited way he would be upset. I'm not sure he would really be all that embarrassed at having people see his butt - after all, just a few months ago I still often needed to remind him not to start pulling down his pants until he was actually in the bathroom when we were out in public. Probably his level of embarrassment would depend on how the other kids reacted.


----------



## VisionaryMom

On the one hand, you keep saying "sexual curiosity," but OTOH, you don't want to label what your son is doing as sexual behavior. I think you have to get clear in your mind which you think it is because it can't be "oh, it's normal sexual curiosity, but don't get upset because it's not sexual." You & your friend both believe your own children, which is typical. I don't think it's odd that you think what your son did is normal, and she believes her daughter. TBH, I would not allow my daughter to be around your son, so I don't think your friend is wrong. I'm also afraid that you & your son will lose more friends if this behavior isn't something you can get a handle on, and while you think it's mean, others need to feel comfortable as well.

I don't think the number of incidents and particularly the one story that he made up (if I'm understanding correctly) are within the range of normal. I think that given your son's background at daycare and the other multitude of behavioral problems (as in the long thread in GD), you need to be addressing this pretty harshly at this point. He seems either not to care what you and other tell him or not be able to control himself. You need to find out which and address it.

At the very least, you should seek out a second opinion from a therapist. I'm finding it odd that your therapist knows his history and still thinks all of these things are normal, but then therapists are people, too. They have different opinions, and I think a second opinion may give you a very different result.

My family has a long, sordid history of sexual misbehavior that's all over the map from promiscuity to rape. My cousin, who's now 34, was like your son as a child. He had a higher-than-average number of "experimental incidents" involving looking at others' genitals. He progressed to essentially stalking/harassing girls in high school to finally being sentenced to jail for rape in his late 20s. All along the way his mother excused and said how he was just "normally curious" and then just had "a crush" on the girls and on and on. Now, I'm not saying that your child is destined down this road, but it's what I've seen from the same sort of response from a mother. Where is the line for you? It hasn't been when he made up a genital-showing story about several other kids. It hasn't been when he pulled down a girls' pants without her knowledge/consent/understanding. It's not when he asked someone to kiss his rectum. It's not when he asked another girl to pull down her pants & he pulled his down in a public place with you sitting there. So, when is it? What would indicate to you that it's finally a problem? For me, those acts individually may not be, but when they're added together, they do indicate that he's not headed down a very good path.


----------



## GoBecGo

Have read your posts OP, but not every response.

Honestly this sounds concerning to me. The sexual story that turned out not to be true (i remember you posting on that) is very concerning. My brother used to get into frequent games of "you show me, i show you" with other kids, and make up "off" stories that turned out not to be true, and at the same time began to quite seriously sexually abuse me.

I don't think the therapist is paying attention, and you need to have a conversation with them about it. I think your poor boy has a bunch of stuff to deal with, and i don't think he sexually assaulted anyone (at 5, there is no intent, i agree that it was a bit rubbish for the little girl, but i don't think that was his intent) BUT i think he is indeed on a slightly "off" track here and needs help. Thank you mama, for asking these questions, looking at this situation honestly, and trying to figure out what to do. You tend to suffer some judgement when you post on these issues, but thousands of parents simply refuse to even consider anything could even possibly be amiss and THAT is when people really get hurt. I feel bad that the little girl got her pants pulled down - i too would either keep my distance or watch like a hawk if that happened to my DD with a friend's kid - but i think you're great for examining it so honestly. It's pretty brutal to have to look at your baby and understand that they may be capable, at some point, of hurting people in this way if you don't address it. :hugs


----------



## Owen'nZoe

So, I guess that I'm curious what those of you who think the OP is not taking this seriously enough would have her do at this point. It has been a lot to wade through, but from what I understand, she has:

- involved her son's therapist

- talked to her son about proper behaviour and boundaries

- said she will supervise him closely with children going forward

I see the suggestion to get the opinion of a second therapist, but beyond that, the advice doesn't seem very constructive. What else should she be doing that she isn't?


----------



## VisionaryMom

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Owen'nZoe*
> 
> What else should she be doing that she isn't?


I think much of what I hear from the OP's comment is an under-reaction to me. This part of her original post in particular struck me that way.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bisou*
> as we were leaving, my son said, "Mom, I am sorry, but I pulled down my pants and asked Alex to pull down her pants in the play structure." I told him that that was not ok, but I said thank you for telling me, and then emphasized that this behavior was not something he should be doing and could upset other kids' parents. He kept saying he was sorry.
> 
> My friend called me late that night and left a voicemail saying her daughter said the same thing my son had told me, and said, "I don't know what we are going to do about this, because this is not ok with me." She did say that my son asked her daughter to "touch his butt hole," but when I asked my son about this, he said he only asked her to touch his bottom on the side. I texted back the next morning and said it wasn't ok with me either, but that I think this is normal curiosity for kids, and that we should talk to them about it. I also called and left two voicemails saying I was happy to talk about the incident if she would like.


I don't think that, given his history, that's 'normal curiosity.' Even if she's talked to him about bodies being private, he's not listening. It's time to step up what she's saying. At this point, if he were my child, he would be in trouble for continuing this behavior. He would have been in significant trouble for making up the whole story about the bathroom incident with the 4-5 other kids because he lied, and I *believed* him and went to the principal saying his teacher wasn't watching the kids closely. Holy cow! I would have been livid if that were my child! That's not acceptable behavior.

If it were my child, we would not be going to the play area for a long while, and he'd probably lose some privileges. I would tell him that it was because he clearly had not listened to the talking on bodies and that he'd violated my trust. He's not mature enough to be permitted to play without me at arm's length, and that's what would happen. Maybe the OP is planning to do that, but what I see is her saying that it's normal and okay and that she's talked to him about it (again) when that hasn't worked. He has no reason to change because there's nothing to persuade him to, and I think that this behavior demands of the parent that there are consequences, natural or not, that accompany our behavior. While internal motivation is lovely, he doesn't have it yet.


----------



## ecoteat

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Owen'nZoe*
> 
> So, I guess that I'm curious what those of you who think the OP is not taking this seriously enough would have her do at this point. It has been a lot to wade through, but from what I understand, she has:
> 
> - involved her son's therapist
> 
> - talked to her son about proper behaviour and boundaries
> 
> - said she will supervise him closely with children going forward
> 
> I see the suggestion to get the opinion of a second therapist, but beyond that, the advice doesn't seem very constructive. What else should she be doing that she isn't?


Good question. IMO, since it sounds like more an issue with behavioral boundaries and not so much about sexuality, I wonder if there are any consequences when explicit instructions are ignored. What those consequences might be would of course depend on any family's parenting style, but it sounds to me like nothing happens as a result of him choosing to repeat behaviors he has been told to stop. (Unless I forgot some details of this long thread, which is possible.)

I was thinking about this thread tonight when dd and I got together with friends for dinner at their house. The kids were being silly and playing and stripped. (The 4.5 year old kids did, anyway, which was dd and my friends' ds.) They played naked for a long time, which included enthusiastic "NAKED HUGS!" and much wrestling and physical contact. They asked the older kids (age 7 and 11) if they wanted to get naked too, having no idea that there is such a thing as modesty when at home or in a close friends' home. The big kids said no and that was that. At no point did any person seem to think for a moment that there was anything remotely sexual about any of it. (Well, we adults did stifle our giggles when they were hugging and the boy knocked dd over accidentally and ended up laying on top of her for a moment.) In most situations, I don't think it's fair to extend our adult views of the roles of certain body parts to our young children who are still innocent and naive. Usually they have no idea and it should stay that way--which goes back to the OP wanting to be clear about what is appropriate without using shame.


----------



## Bisou

Quote:

Originally Posted by *ecoteat* 


> A 5-year-old doesn't usually associate their genitals with sexual pleasure. I think this kind of behavior, in their minds, is more closely connected to bathroom humor and silliness.


Yep, I agree.


----------



## Bisou

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VisionaryMom*
> 
> On the one hand, you keep saying "sexual curiosity," but OTOH, you don't want to label what your son is doing as sexual behavior. I think you have to get clear in your mind which you think it is because it can't be "oh, it's normal sexual curiosity, but don't get upset because it's not sexual." You & your friend both believe your own children, which is typical. I don't think it's odd that you think what your son did is normal, and she believes her daughter. TBH, I would not allow my daughter to be around your son, so I don't think your friend is wrong. I'm also afraid that you & your son will lose more friends if this behavior isn't something you can get a handle on, and while you think it's mean, others need to feel comfortable as well.
> 
> I don't think the number of incidents and particularly the one story that he made up (if I'm understanding correctly) are within the range of normal. I think that given your son's background at daycare and the other multitude of behavioral problems (as in the long thread in GD), you need to be addressing this pretty harshly at this point. He seems either not to care what you and other tell him or not be able to control himself. You need to find out which and address it.
> 
> At the very least, you should seek out a second opinion from a therapist. I'm finding it odd that your therapist knows his history and still thinks all of these things are normal, but then therapists are people, too. They have different opinions, and I think a second opinion may give you a very different result.
> 
> My family has a long, sordid history of sexual misbehavior that's all over the map from promiscuity to rape. My cousin, who's now 34, was like your son as a child. He had a higher-than-average number of "experimental incidents" involving looking at others' genitals. He progressed to essentially stalking/harassing girls in high school to finally being sentenced to jail for rape in his late 20s. All along the way his mother excused and said how he was just "normally curious" and then just had "a crush" on the girls and on and on. Now, I'm not saying that your child is destined down this road, but it's what I've seen from the same sort of response from a mother. Where is the line for you? It hasn't been when he made up a genital-showing story about several other kids. It hasn't been when he pulled down a girls' pants without her knowledge/consent/understanding. It's not when he asked someone to kiss his rectum. It's not when he asked another girl to pull down her pants & he pulled his down in a public place with you sitting there. So, when is it? What would indicate to you that it's finally a problem? For me, those acts individually may not be, but when they're added together, they do indicate that he's not headed down a very good path.


Whoa! Lots of misunderstandings or misreadings here.

1) I didn't think it was mean that my friend didn't want her daughter around my son, which isn't what she has decided anyway. (We've just decided not to have them play where we can't see them.) I was upset that she told me about this, then did not answer any calls or voicemails for several days and canceled her plans to attend my birthday party, which was adults only and didn't involve kids. I just didn't think that was a very mature response to not even want to talk about anything and hear what each child said in detail. I wanted to hear her daughter's story and also explain what my son said and talk about how she wanted to handle this.

2) What do you suggest I do about him making up a story? You said that "didn't cross the line" for me, but honestly, while I don't want him to lie and this is probably the first time he's told a significant lie, I don't know what's so bad about him saying other kids pulled down their pants when neither my son nor any other kids were involved and NOTHING HAPPENED. Yes, he was dishonest, possibly to get attention, but nothing happened. He just fabricated a story. Not sure exactly what I should do to give him consequences for that.

3) He did not ask someone to kiss his anus! I am not sure where you are getting that. He asked my friend's daughter to "touch his butt," but not his anus. I am 100% sure of that. There have been other kids at school (boys) asking each other to "kiss my butt," jokingly, to be gross, and clothed.

4) It's not just his therapist who thinks this is relatively normal. I've also talked to other elementary teachers and therapists (my son's teacher, another teacher I know, and a friend who's a therapist) and they say this happens a lot at this age. My son is very open and honest about what's been going on. I wonder how many kids are involved in this but their parents just don't know?

5) I also wonder exactly what you think I should do? I've told him he shouldn't be doing this. What does "addressing this pretty harshly" look like exactly? Yelling? Screaming? We've stopped going to places where he could do this behavior. The only thing I can't control is what happens at school, and it sounds like the other kids are doing this as well. Just the other day he said two boys pulled their pants down at school again, but my son was not involved this time. He just saw them doing it. Honestly, sometimes I wish I could just homeschool him where I could keep an eye on him 24/7, but since I am a single mom, that's not an option for us.


----------



## Bisou

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *VisionaryMom*
> 
> I don't think that, given his history, that's 'normal curiosity.' Even if she's talked to him about bodies being private, he's not listening. It's time to step up what she's saying. At this point, if he were my child, he would be in trouble for continuing this behavior. He would have been in significant trouble for making up the whole story about the bathroom incident with the 4-5 other kids because he lied, and I *believed* him and went to the principal saying his teacher wasn't watching the kids closely. Holy cow! I would have been livid if that were my child! That's not acceptable behavior.
> 
> If it were my child, we would not be going to the play area for a long while, and he'd probably lose some privileges. I would tell him that it was because he clearly had not listened to the talking on bodies and that he'd violated my trust. He's not mature enough to be permitted to play without me at arm's length, and that's what would happen. Maybe the OP is planning to do that, but what I see is her saying that it's normal and okay and that she's talked to him about it (again) when that hasn't worked. He has no reason to change because there's nothing to persuade him to, and I think that this behavior demands of the parent that there are consequences, natural or not, that accompany our behavior. While internal motivation is lovely, he doesn't have it yet.


So what would you do about your child lying and embarrassing you in front of the principal? At this age, I don't think kids understand long term consequences like "You will be grounded from TV for a week because you lied." What exactly are you suggesting?

AND, I am not even sure what was exactly true and what wasn't in that situation. When he told me about what happened, I told him I was going to have to talk to the principal about it. He said that he didn't want to get any of his friends in trouble, and that he was just going to say it didn't happen. He was very concerned about "telling" on the other kids. Now, this could either mean that he lied and didn't want me telling anyone, or that he actually told the truth, but didn't want the other kids (which included his best buddies in kindergarten) getting in trouble. I am not exactly sure what really happened. He has never really lied to me or anyone else before; this behavior was out of character for him.

We AREN'T going back to the play area any time in the near future because of this.

The quote you included from my original post simply explained what happened at the time. Had he told me about the sexual play while we were still there, I would have told him we needed to go home; however, he didn't tell me this until we were already leaving.

I think blowing up at my son and having some huge reaction would only make him keep this to himself and be ashamed. I am proud of him for being brave enough to tell me what's going on and for being honest. If I had some "harsh" reaction, as you suggested, (whatever that means . . . . screaming, yelling, severe grounding?) he might very well continue this behavior and just not tell me about it. I'd much rather know what is going on!

VisionaryMom, I don't know why this has to degenerate into a criticism of my parenting and how I am not reacting appropriately. I would never criticize someone else's parenting in that way. There is nothing helpful about those kinds of comments.


----------



## D_McG

Quote:


> 3) He did not ask someone to kiss his anus! I am not sure where you are getting that. *He asked my friend's daughter to "touch his butt," but not his anus. I am 100% sure of that. *


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bisou*
> 
> She did say that my son asked her daughter to *"touch his butt hole,"* but when I asked my son about this, he said he only asked her to touch his bottom on the side.


Do you not believe the little girl? Or did I miss an update where she retracted her allegation? (very possible as I'm not 100% up to date on both of your threads).


----------



## Mom2M

First of all, OP I am so sorry that happened to your son, it must have been horrible for him and for you .

I read all of the posts and here are my thoughts. Since he has been in therapy, I guess some of it at least was meant for talking about the incident that happened to him? I'm wondering if since he has talked about it and has heard others talk about it a lot (I'm assuming the above is true), maybe he is just more aware of any feelings like this he has and it causes him to make a little more of it than just having passing thoughts about it. I hope that makes sense.

For some reason, like some PP have said, I did get kind of a red flag after reading this, especially given his history. Is it possible that he is talking to you about it because he is upset and even afraid of his feelings and is trying to make a joke out of it but wants some reassurance that these feelings are normal? Maybe he is afraid that something bad might happen to him because of what previously hurt him.

It's a shame that you can't try a different therapist, health insurance rules make me so angry!


----------



## D_McG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bisou*
> 
> VisionaryMom, I don't know why this has to degenerate into a criticism of my parenting and how I am not reacting appropriately. I would never criticize someone else's parenting in that way. There is nothing helpful about those kinds of comments.


I can't speak for VisionaryMom but I agreed with what she wrote. The things you post about your son are extremely disturbing (I am combining threads in my mind here). I realize you have him in therapy but I don't know if maybe you're not being honest with them? Or they are just not that good at their jobs? I am struggling to see why they haven't recommend some serious psychiatric interventions here. Or if maybe they just feel that this really is a function of the dynamic in the home (I do not think this).

Sometimes I wonder if the trauma he suffered as a child isn't a kind of red herring. I think you feel guilt over it to a point where maybe it's making you lose some objectivity (and of course, it's hard to be truly objective about our own children). Even reading back your posts it seems like from birth your son has had issues. I wonder if it's not time to take the daycare issues completely out of the equation, get a referral to a good child psychiatrist and be honest about every single thing that's going on. The hours and hours of rages. The violence. The sexual things. Everything.

Also, can I ask what kind of therapist he is seeing? Have you had him evaluated by a psychiatrist?


----------



## pupsnelda

You said it perfectly, thanks for that!! Exactly my thoughts.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *D_McG*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Bisou*
> 
> VisionaryMom, I don't know why this has to degenerate into a criticism of my parenting and how I am not reacting appropriately. I would never criticize someone else's parenting in that way. There is nothing helpful about those kinds of comments.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't speak for VisionaryMom but I agreed with what she wrote. The things you post about your son are extremely disturbing (I am combining threads in my mind here). I realize you have him in therapy but I don't know if maybe you're not being honest with them? Or they are just not that good at their jobs? I am struggling to see why they haven't recommend some serious psychiatric interventions here. Or if maybe they just feel that this really is a function of the dynamic in the home (I do not think this).
> 
> Sometimes I wonder if the trauma he suffered as a child isn't a kind of red herring. I think you feel guilt over it to a point where maybe it's making you lose some objectivity (and of course, it's hard to be truly objective about our own children). Even reading back your posts it seems like from birth your son has had issues. I wonder if it's not time to take the daycare issues completely out of the equation, get a referral to a good child psychiatrist and be honest about every single thing that's going on. The hours and hours of rages. The violence. The sexual things. Everything.
> 
> Also, can I ask what kind of therapist he is seeing? Have you had him evaluated by a psychiatrist?
Click to expand...


----------



## pupsnelda

Regarding the bolded: When I read the posts about your child - and I think that I read all of them - I think that you described worriesome behaviour BEFORE the daycare and break-in issues. What happened is horrible, I do not want to minimize that, but IMO your son had problems BEFORE that.

Quote: Sometimes I wonder if the trauma he suffered as a child isn't a kind of red herring. I think you feel guilt over it to a point where maybe it's making you lose some objectivity (and of course, it's hard to be truly objective about our own children). *Even reading back your posts it seems like from birth your son has had issues. *I wonder if it's not time to take the daycare issues completely out of the equation, get a referral to a good child psychiatrist and be honest about every single thing that's going on. The hours and hours of rages. The violence. The sexual things. Everything.


----------



## _ktg_

Dear OP: I have read through all the posts & replies on this thread. I am sorry for what your son endured at his daycare, but in regards to your question - I have 2 boys a 4.5 y.o & ~ 2 y.o. and I can honestly say - if I got a nickel for everytime I hear - "touch my butt","touch my butthole", "kiss my butthole", "look at my penis!", "look at <DS2>'s penis!" etc. I would be a very rich lady at this point in my life.









I have heard his friends & him discuss in whispers they are going to pull down their pants and IMO - your son sounds an awful lot like my boys and we just work on what is appropriate behavior everyday. For example I will say just because it's funny to him, the other person might not like it/find it funny, or might make them feel yucky.

Good luck and I hope things can work out between you & your friend, her daughter.


----------



## fairejour

No matter if each of these incidents would be "normal" in another situation, I read your other thread and I think it is VERY clear that your son has very serious impulse control issues. He is either unable, or unwilling to control his actions. That needs dealt with.


----------



## Bisou

No, I don't believe her for several reasons.

1) *I have seen this girl flat out lie to her mom on many occasions.* These have been instances that had nothing to do with my son but with other people, like an interaction between her daughter and my friend's roommate where my friend's daughter completely lied about what happened, and I witnessed the entire thing.

2) After we talked more extensively, it came out that *my friend's daughter had extensive problems with sexual looking and touching HERSELF with multiple kids at school, multiple times, over a two year period! * They had to end up involving the principal, school counselors, parents, and a bunch of people and still couldn't get it to stop. It was a huge problem. Obviously this girl has had some issues of her own. Because of this, it seems like she had ample motive to blame this on my son and make her sound like this was all his idea. She has already been in trouble for this kind of behavior MANY times, more times than my son has been in trouble, and in a more extensive manner. Also, she is 7, and he is 5. That's a big age difference at this age!

3) When I asked my son specifically about this (asking her to touch his "bottom hole" --- he didn't even know the word "butt hole," which is what my friend's daughter said he said!) he whipped his head around towards me with a completely shocked look on his face and said "EWWWWW!" He didn't laugh or smile, which is what he would've done if he was even slightly guilty. He was totally taken aback.

I believe my son's version of the story, that he pulled his pants down and asked her to do the same, and that that was the extent of it.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *D_McG*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> 3) He did not ask someone to kiss his anus! I am not sure where you are getting that. *He asked my friend's daughter to "touch his butt," but not his anus. I am 100% sure of that. *
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Bisou*
> 
> She did say that my son asked her daughter to *"touch his butt hole,"* but when I asked my son about this, he said he only asked her to touch his bottom on the side.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you not believe the little girl? Or did I miss an update where she retracted her allegation? (very possible as I'm not 100% up to date on both of your threads).
Click to expand...


----------



## Bisou

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *fairejour*
> 
> No matter if each of these incidents would be "normal" in another situation, I read your other thread and I think it is VERY clear that your son has very serious impulse control issues. *He is either unable, or unwilling to control his actions. That needs dealt with.*


I don't know exactly what everyone thinks I should do. My son's team of professionals now includes:

1 child psychologist

1 child psychiatrist

1 counselor specializing in EMDR (a trauma therapy)

1 behavioral pediatrician

1 occupational therapist

1 pediatrician

1 acupuncturist

I am not sure what else people think I should be doing, and it's disappointing that this always seems to take the "your kid is having problems; attack the mother" tone. I didn't think that was the point of MDC. I thought this was supposed to be a supportive environment. I think saying "This doesn't seem like what my kids are doing" or "I don't think this is normal behavior because of a, b, c" is one thing, but to insinuate that I am not doing anything to help my son or to try to deal with his problems is ridiculous, unfair, and unkind.

I have continued to consult people because my son has continued to have problems, and I am treating this in a multitude of ways. *Just because he continues to have behavior problems doesn't mean I am not doing anything about it!* You are very lucky if you have a child that responds immediately to "You must not do that," or to time outs, or to grounding, or whatever methods you use. My son hasn't responded to any of these methods, and they have all been tried MANY times.

Dealing with what I have been dealing with with my son for the past couple of years has been DEVASTATING. I am doing this alone, working nearly two full time jobs and being a full time parent. It requires super human energy, patience, and strength. I haven't had a single date (or hugs or kisses or sex!) in SIX YEARS because every moment is devoted to my son and to work, but mainly to trying to help my son and find solutions for him, yet people who don't even know me (not all of you, but some) continue to insinuate that I am not doing enough, or not doing the right thing, or that somehow I am just doing things all wrong.

Seriously, please think about what you are saying before posting. Just because my son is having problems doesn't mean I am not handling it correctly. I am spending hundreds of dollars a month on just co-payments for therapies for him, always looking for something new. SERIOUSLY, what else am I supposed to do? I think I am doing all that I can and the best that I can, and having to come here and face criticism when I am looking for support is not helpful. This is my child and my life. It's not a debate about the latest political topic or something else that's not personal. I am a real person with real feelings. I know it can be hard to forget that at times online, but there is still a real person connected to the other end of this.


----------



## Bisou

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *_ktg_*
> 
> Dear OP: I have read through all the posts & replies on this thread. I am sorry for what your son endured at his daycare, but in regards to your question - I have 2 boys a 4.5 y.o & ~ 2 y.o. and I can honestly say - if I got a nickel for everytime I hear - "touch my butt","touch my butthole", "kiss my butthole", "look at my penis!", "look at <DS2>'s penis!" etc. I would be a very rich lady at this point in my life.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have heard his friends & him discuss in whispers they are going to pull down their pants and IMO - your son sounds an awful lot like my boys and we just work on what is appropriate behavior everyday. For example I will say just because it's funny to him, the other person might not like it/find it funny, or might make them feel yucky.
> 
> Good luck and I hope things can work out between you & your friend, her daughter.


Thanks KTG. The feeling that I am getting is that for some kids, this behavior is very normal, and for other kids, not so much. Honestly, after reading what everyone has to say, I think my son's behavior is normal when compared to other kids his age. Am I going to keep a close eye on it? Yep. Am I going to continue to tell him not to do this? Yep.

We just got about five books tonight from Amazon about private areas, respecting your body and other people's bodies, and a sort of "sex ed" book for young kids that shows a couple of drawings of boys and girls naked and discusses body parts. He thought that was completely hilarious, but I let him look at it and ask me questions, and I am hoping this will help dispel some of his curiosity.

I did also talk to the child psychiatrist about this today, and even knowing his history of abuse, she ALSO did NOT find it concerning.


----------



## Bisou

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pupsnelda*
> 
> Regarding the bolded: When I read the posts about your child - and I think that I read all of them - I think that you described worriesome behaviour BEFORE the daycare and break-in issues. What happened is horrible, I do not want to minimize that, but IMO your son had problems BEFORE that.
> 
> Quote: Sometimes I wonder if the trauma he suffered as a child isn't a kind of red herring. I think you feel guilt over it to a point where maybe it's making you lose some objectivity (and of course, it's hard to be truly objective about our own children). *Even reading back your posts it seems like from birth your son has had issues. *I wonder if it's not time to take the daycare issues completely out of the equation, get a referral to a good child psychiatrist and be honest about every single thing that's going on. The hours and hours of rages. The violence. The sexual things. Everything.


My son's issues from a young age have now all been attributed to sensory processing disorder. He has sensory seeking behavior and also difficulty identifying where his body is in space and being able to gauge how hard/soft he is doing things. This has all been noted through testing and therapy by his occupational therapist. When I look back on his earlier years (before 2), that explains all of what he was doing. I have only recently learned about SPD and didn't know even what it was when I wrote my original posting on my other thread. I interpreted his behavior as angry and aggressive because it seemed like he was trying to hurt me, but now I know that wasn't it at all. He would try to slam his body into mine, throwing himself backwards, and he'd often crash his head into my face. It made no sense at the time because it wasn't in relation to any kind of discipline or "no"; it would just be random, and I couldn't understand why a 12-18 month old would try to hurt me! But now that I've read about SPD and learning about it from his therapists, it's clear that his actions were SPD and nothing else.

*I do want to say that I HAVE been "honest about every single thing that's going on." * I have told his psychologist, his occupational therapist, his pediatrician, a counselor who specializes in children and trauma, and now a child psychiatrist. They know about ALL aspects of everything he's ever done. They all are saying that this is a result of serious trauma. I don't think that what happened to him can be taken out of the equation. I think it's what caused the rage and anger he's had. He's constantly been shown that the world is an unsafe place, over and over and over.


----------



## Bisou

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *D_McG*
> 
> I realize you have him in therapy but I don't know if maybe you're not being honest with them?


I have been completely and totally honest about EVERYTHING my son has ever said or done. What would be the point of attending therapy and wasting my limited funds if I was going to do otherwise? That makes no sense. The therapists my son has seen know everything about everything!


----------



## DariusMom

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *D_McG*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Bisou*
> 
> VisionaryMom, I don't know why this has to degenerate into a criticism of my parenting and how I am not reacting appropriately. I would never criticize someone else's parenting in that way. There is nothing helpful about those kinds of comments.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't speak for VisionaryMom but I agreed with what she wrote. The things you post about your son are extremely disturbing (I am combining threads in my mind here). I realize you have him in therapy but I don't know if maybe you're not being honest with them? Or they are just not that good at their jobs? I am struggling to see why they haven't recommend some serious psychiatric interventions here. Or if maybe they just feel that this really is a function of the dynamic in the home (I do not think this).
> 
> Sometimes I wonder if the trauma he suffered as a child isn't a kind of red herring. I think you feel guilt over it to a point where maybe it's making you lose some objectivity (and of course, it's hard to be truly objective about our own children). Even reading back your posts it seems like from birth your son has had issues. I wonder if it's not time to take the daycare issues completely out of the equation, get a referral to a good child psychiatrist and be honest about every single thing that's going on. The hours and hours of rages. The violence. The sexual things. Everything.
> 
> Also, can I ask what kind of therapist he is seeing? Have you had him evaluated by a psychiatrist?
Click to expand...

I agree
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bisou*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *fairejour*
> 
> No matter if each of these incidents would be "normal" in another situation, I read your other thread and I think it is VERY clear that your son has very serious impulse control issues. *He is either unable, or unwilling to control his actions. That needs dealt with.*
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know exactly what everyone thinks I should do. My son's team of professionals now includes:
> 
> 1 child psychologist
> 
> 1 child psychiatrist
> 
> 1 counselor specializing in EMDR (a trauma therapy)
> 
> 1 behavioral pediatrician
> 
> 1 occupational therapist
> 
> 1 pediatrician
> 
> 1 acupuncturist
> 
> I am not sure what else people think I should be doing, and it's disappointing that this always seems to take the "your kid is having problems; attack the mother" tone. I didn't think that was the point of MDC. I thought this was supposed to be a supportive environment. I think saying "This doesn't seem like what my kids are doing" or "I don't think this is normal behavior because of a, b, c" is one thing, but to insinuate that I am not doing anything to help my son or to try to deal with his problems is ridiculous, unfair, and unkind.
> 
> I have continued to consult people because my son has continued to have problems, and I am treating this in a multitude of ways. *Just because he continues to have behavior problems doesn't mean I am not doing anything about it!* You are very lucky if you have a child that responds immediately to "You must not do that," or to time outs, or to grounding, or whatever methods you use. My son hasn't responded to any of these methods, and they have all been tried MANY times.
> 
> Dealing with what I have been dealing with with my son for the past couple of years has been DEVASTATING. I am doing this alone, working nearly two full time jobs and being a full time parent. It requires super human energy, patience, and strength. I haven't had a single date (or hugs or kisses or sex!) in SIX YEARS because every moment is devoted to my son and to work, but mainly to trying to help my son and find solutions for him, yet people who don't even know me (not all of you, but some) continue to insinuate that I am not doing enough, or not doing the right thing, or that somehow I am just doing things all wrong.
> 
> Seriously, please think about what you are saying before posting. Just because my son is having problems doesn't mean I am not handling it correctly. I am spending hundreds of dollars a month on just co-payments for therapies for him, always looking for something new. SERIOUSLY, what else am I supposed to do? I think I am doing all that I can and the best that I can, and having to come here and face criticism when I am looking for support is not helpful. This is my child and my life. It's not a debate about the latest political topic or something else that's not personal. I am a real person with real feelings. I know it can be hard to forget that at times online, but there is still a real person connected to the other end of this.
Click to expand...

I'm very sorry you're feeling attacked and I have the utmost respect for all your efforts to get help for your son. It must be exhausting, especially on your own.

I could be remembering incorrectly, but I thought that your DS' father suffered from serious mental illness. If there is a family history, would exploring medication at this point be appropriate? I'm definitely extremely cautious about prescribing drugs to kids! And I, like you, would want to explore as many options or combination of options as possible to deal with the problem before turning to medication. But I've seen in my own family how taking the very idea of drugs for mental health/behavioral issues off the table has led to years of problems that could have been avoided had my sister not been so intent on *not* using medication. Therefore, I wonder if it's not just making your life and your DS' much more difficult to not at least explore some medical options. What does your psychiatrist say?


----------



## Bisou

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *DariusMom*
> 
> I'm very sorry you're feeling attacked and I have the utmost respect for all your efforts to get help for your son. It must be exhausting, especially on your own.I could be remembering incorrectly, but I thought that your DS' father suffered from serious mental illness. If there is a family history, would exploring medication at this point be appropriate? I'm definitely extremely cautious about prescribing drugs to kids! And I, like you, would want to explore as many options or combination of options as possible to deal with the problem before turning to medication. But I've seen in my own family how taking the very idea of drugs for mental health/behavioral issues off the table has led to years of problems that could have been avoided had my sister not been so intent on *not* using medication. Therefore, I wonder if it's not just making your life and your DS' much more difficult to not at least explore some medical options. What does your psychiatrist say?


It's been hard not to feel attacked when some (definitely not all) people have suggested that I don't care about what's going on, that I am not being honest with my son's therapists, that I don't care about my friend's feelings, that my son is "sexually assaulting" people, that I am not trying to get my son help, and various other things.

We saw a psychiatrist for the first time today. He had some serious stuff happening a month ago, and their most "urgent/emergency" appointment was one month away. Not so helpful.

The psychiatrist thinks my son is suffering from PTSD and that the amount of trauma he's faced in his young life has caused him extreme fear and rage because he doesn't know how to handle what's happened in his life. She also thinks his sensory processing disorder further complicates things. She did not think the sexual behavior was abnormal, but like my therapist, said I should avoid situations where he can get involved in these behaviors, which I had already determined on my own.

She has recommended a medication called Clonidine, which is a blood pressure lowering medication. I have been extremely hesitant to try medication because he's five and all of these medications can have serious side effects. She said this one is very benign, but when you see that you're giving your child a medication that can have even a chance of heart failure, to me that's scary. It's probably less scary than some of the other meds they use for these kinds of problems, but scary nonetheless.

When you Google "Clonidine and children" you come up with quotes like this from a doctor in Australia on an ABC site: "We've seen 24 children who've been admitted to hospital with severe side effects of Clonidine&#8230; Half of them have ended up in intensive care needing help with ventilation, a tube to help them breathe and also help with their blood pressure and their low pulse rate. Our finding with Clonidine is that the size of the overdose didn't determine how sick the child was. Some children who didn't have very big doses actually got extremely sick and ended up in intensive care whereas there was one child who had a very large overdose and didn't need to go to intensive care&#8230;"

This kind of stuff scares the crap out of me.


----------



## Bisou

I should also be clear that these are not people my son has seen in the past. These are the people my son is CURRENTLY seeing, all at the same time!!!!

1 child psychologist

1 child psychiatrist

1 counselor specializing in EMDR (a trauma therapy)

1 behavioral pediatrician

1 occupational therapist

1 pediatrician

1 acupuncturist

The EMDR is something we are just starting, and I have great hopes for that.


----------



## weliveintheforest

When it comes to the sexual curiosity you were originally posting about, your son sounds pretty typical to me. I think you are handling everything properly. I remember similar activities from my own childhood (show me yours, I'll show you mine type stuff), my dh has told me similar stories of his childhood, and my 5 year old nephews have played in similar ways.

Of course it is good to be aware, especially with your son's history, but I honestly don't think you could be doing any more than what you already are. If someone in my life was going through this I would want to know they were talking with the school, his ped, and getting him therapy... and you are doing all those things.

Just my opinion. I have a five year old but we have not faced this stuff yet.


----------



## D_McG

I am so happy to hear that you finally got to see a psychiatrist and are beginning drug therapy. I hope this helps your little boy.

ETA: rereading now it's not clear if you're actually going to try it?


----------



## Owen'nZoe

Bisou, I just wanted to offer hugs - some of the responses on this thread have been brutal. I've not had to deal with anything like you are dealing with, but I give you all the credit in the world for everything you have tried and are continuing to try.


----------



## ~cassie

Honestly I still feel like it is beyond the range of normal for a child. And while being honest, I feel like you are trying to explain it all away. You never mentioned his other issues in your OP, you are just now mentioning he was diagnosed as SPD. Some of this information is critical to mention so that we fully understand your child, yet you left it out until just now. I truly hope he is able to get some form of help and that this doesn't escalate into anything more. I would give the meds a shot, they can do wonders and you just don't know how your child will react until he takes them. IMO, after all avenues have been tried, I think it is a good idea to try meds, some people need them to function and that is ok. I do have a nephew on meds for bipolar disorder and it also has some serious side effects(none experiences luckily) but the difference it makes in that child is amazing. Hopefully your child will respond well to it.


----------



## Daffodil

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *~cassie*
> 
> You never mentioned his other issues in your OP, you are just now mentioning he was diagnosed as SPD. Some of this information is critical to mention so that we fully understand your child, yet you left it out until just now.


Fully understanding this particular child isn't really important for people to answer the question the OP actually asked, which was NOT "Does my kid need help?" or "Did I handle these situations correctly?" or "What should I be doing differently as a parent?"

This is what she posted:

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bisou*
> 
> So my son has been having some issues with sexual curiosity, and I am not sure exactly if this is normal or not. *I'd like to hear from other parents of kids 4-6 or so, particularly parents with 4-6 yo boys, about what their kids have done at this age.*


----------



## fairejour

*This post is more about the entire situation with your son, than this thread in particular.*

I don't think people are attacking you, but your responses concern some of us. You seem desperate to dismiss his actions and classify them as "normal". Perhaps with another child some of these things could be typical, but at this point, with your child's history and other issues, nothing would be "normal".

PTSD could explain some of his behavior, but you said that he was atypically violent BEFORE the abuse. I know that no one WANTS to medicate their child, but you should visit Special Needs Parenting and talk to some of the Mommas there who have children with mental illness. Perhaps you could find some support and advice about the totality of your son's issues.

One last note, can you imagine how unhappy it would feel to be inside him? If these are the behaviors he is manifesting, he must just be miserable inside. I know that you really don't want to medicate him, but I myself use medication, as does most of my family. My mother in particular is completely unable to function without her medication, for bipolar. Are there side effects, yeah, but the good far out weighs the bad. To finally be able to experience peace, and have a calm mind is amazing. Someone who has never experienced the chaos of living with a mental illness can never understand what it feels like to finally be ok.


----------



## pupsnelda

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Owen'nZoe*
> 
> Bisou, I just wanted to offer hugs - some of the responses on this thread have been brutal. I've not had to deal with anything like you are dealing with, but I give you all the credit in the world for everything you have tried and are continuing to try.


Brutal? I disagree. Some of the responses have been concerned and actually those posters who have read the whole background are worried about the child. In this case you just have to have the complete history, it changes the perspective totally.

And I agree with you, the OP has tried very hard and for a very long time. But her refusal to accept the possibility of a mental health issue of her son which needs meds doesn't seem reasonable. There has been suffering for YEARS. Her son has suffered, she has suffered. She has tried many, many different approaches, natural ways, but as fas as I can see it, none has been really effective, slightly effective sometimes, sure. But IMO not enough.


----------



## Owen'nZoe

Look, I've gone back and read prior posts about her son. I get that she is dealing with a lot of issues with her son. But I stand by what I said - the tone of some of the responses has been less than kind. And I understand that a lot of you have been following her story for quite some time and may seem frustrated that they haven't been solved, but really, for those of us who don't know Bisou and her son in person and haven't seen what she is going through and trying day to day, we've seen just the tusk or the tail of the proverbial elephant by reading her posts. To say definitively that her son needs meds or judge that she is or isn't taking the actions she needs to based on what little we've seen of her life is kind of absurd.



> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Owen'nZoe*
> 
> Bisou, I just wanted to offer hugs - some of the responses on this thread have been brutal. I've not had to deal with anything like you are dealing with, but I give you all the credit in the world for everything you have tried and are continuing to try.
> 
> 
> 
> Brutal? I disagree. Some of the responses have been concerned and actually those posters who have read the whole background are worried about the child. In this case you just have to have the complete history, it changes the perspective totally.
> 
> And I agree with you, the OP has tried very hard and for a very long time. But her refusal to accept the possibility of a mental health issue of her son which needs meds doesn't seem reasonable. There has been suffering for YEARS. Her son has suffered, she has suffered. She has tried many, many different approaches, natural ways, but as fas as I can see it, none has been really effective, slightly effective sometimes, sure. But IMO not enough.
Click to expand...


----------



## mom2happy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bisou*
> 
> My son was abused in a daycare, but we don't believe it was molestation. He was physically abused and physical damage was caused by a female daycare teacher, but it appeared to be intended to hurt him, and DID hurt him. He had bruises all over the backs of his legs and damage to the skin of his testicles. It was basically ripped off in multiple places, and the doctor and I both thought it looked like someone pinched and twisted the skin of the testicles. Horrifying beyond belief.
> 
> I suppose you could say it was sexual abuse because it happened in the genital area, and I don't know what really happened because he was two, and obviously I wasn't there, but it seemed more like this person just wanted to hurt my son.
> 
> I suppose this could cause sexual issues for him, but I don't really think it's related necessarily to what's going on now. Though who knows. Since he is not trying to do sexual acts and has never acted out in that way, aside from wanting to show others' his body and see theirs, I just don't think this is related to that. I would say he suffered physical abuse, not molestation.
> 
> Also, when that happened, we decided not to talk to him about the abuse unless he brought it up. He was only two, so the communication was limited. For a few weeks, he would say "The teacher hurt my penis," and I would say, "I know, honey. I am so sorry you were hurt. That was not ok for the teacher to do that to you," and hug him, and talk along those lines. So aside from the talk about not looking at other kids' private areas, this was not a subject of conversation in our home at all since he was just two. He's now five.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *mom2happy*
> 
> If I didnt know that he was molested in daycare I wouldnt think this was so abnormal.
> 
> I think because of his past there has probably been much (maybe too much) talk about touching, privates, penisis............
> 
> He is curious and not shy. I am SO glad he feels comfortable to tell you what he did and hope he can always trust you with that stuff.
> 
> Some kids are sexual by nature, some are drawn to the no-no's. It could be one or the other or both for him.
> 
> I have a 5 yr old boy and a 7 yr old girl. Any curiosity about other peoples parts and touching I have always been very quick and non chalant about.
> 
> I give it the same reaction that I would for anything that I know is innocent. Besides a few random moonings, I havent encountered anything else.
> 
> Hopefully this is a short phase. It's really hard for a kid to understand why butts are not to be touched. He is only 5. He is in therapy. You know he is not being sexually abused now.
> 
> I wouldnt give this too much attention. I would say calmly before playdates that you expect him to keep his pants on, his friends to keep their pants on, and if anyone's come off- the playdate is over, and have a fun time!
> 
> If I were that mom I'd still hang out with you, but watch the kids closesly and have a talk with my DD.
Click to expand...

Sorry to get back to you after so long.

First let me say how sorry I am that your 2 year old boy had to experience cruelty like that.

After knowing the whole story, I really dont think there is anything abnormal here. It could be anything from potty humour, to wanting to check things out, being drawn to it because its so off limits, or the little guy could wind up being a very sexual person. All regular things. Some people are just more physical and curious. He seems like he is just being gross and silly. He is also realizing what a rise it gets, which just might make it more silly and appealing.

I'm also trying to figure out if I missed something in the post. Was he diagnosed with an actual problem?

The thing Im the most worried about right now is the full staff of people trying to normalize him when he just sounds like a kid that is going through a really annoying behavioral phase that just so happens to do with butts.

He didnt hurt this girl and certainly wasnt trying to violate her. He was doing something that a lot of boys have a problem with- NOT KEEPING HIS HANDS TO HIMSELF. That is what he needs help with and so do plenty of kids.


----------



## APToddlerMama

No, no, no. You cannot take daycare out of the equation. That is a huge part of the equation as it was a huge source of trauma for this child. That cannot be ignored.

Bisou--You are right. You are doing A LOT for your son, and to suggest that his issues from birth are your fault, is wrong. I think you are really on the right track. In my mind at least, I just think its important that you are working with a good therapist and some of the things you've said about yours make her sound terrible. I think also people don't want to hear the sexual stuff being minimized. You absolutely deserve much more credit and support than you've been given though.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *D_McG*
> 
> I wonder if it's not time to take the daycare issues completely out of the equation, get a referral to a good child psychiatrist and be honest about every single thing that's going on.


----------



## Bisou

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Owen'nZoe*
> 
> Bisou, I just wanted to offer hugs - some of the responses on this thread have been brutal. I've not had to deal with anything like you are dealing with, but I give you all the credit in the world for everything you have tried and are continuing to try.


Thanks OwennZoe.

Honestly, I have gotten to the point that I feel like I don't want to return to MDC because some people can be so critical. Some people are really helpful and sincere, and I don't mind people offering their opinions and suggestions, but when it gets into criticism of me and that I am not handling things properly, or maybe that I don't even care or that I am not honest, that's not helpful and is very hurtful. Honestly, if I didn't care, why would I even take the time to share what's going on?

Anyway, thanks for the kudos.


----------



## Bisou

Thanks Daffodil. That's exactly what I was getting at. There's a 23-24 page long thread about my son under Gentle Discipline, which some people had already read, and others read after seeing this thread, and I didn't think that was relevant to this thread. My main question was simply "What are other kids his age doing in regards to this?" I don't think his other problems are relevant to this particular question. I just wanted to see how his behavior fit in regards to what other kids his age are doing. If other kids his age are doing the same thing, I don't think this makes his behavior abnormal simply because of his background.

From the responses I've received, it sounds like some kids are not doing this kind of behavior and others are, which is normal for most kinds of kid behavior! (And it's also possible that some parents aren't aware of what their kids are doing because the kids might not have mentioned it! I know lots of adults talk about this sort of thing going on when they were kids and that no adults ever knew about it.)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Daffodil*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *~cassie*
> 
> You never mentioned his other issues in your OP, you are just now mentioning he was diagnosed as SPD. Some of this information is critical to mention so that we fully understand your child, yet you left it out until just now.
> 
> 
> 
> Fully understanding this particular child isn't really important for people to answer the question the OP actually asked, which was NOT "Does my kid need help?" or "Did I handle these situations correctly?" or "What should I be doing differently as a parent?"
> 
> This is what she posted:
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Bisou*
> 
> So my son has been having some issues with sexual curiosity, and I am not sure exactly if this is normal or not. *I'd like to hear from other parents of kids 4-6 or so, particularly parents with 4-6 yo boys, about what their kids have done at this age.*
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Bisou

Thank you, OwennZoe. This is exactly how I feel. People only have a small picture of me and my son, yet they feel qualified to judge whether I am doing things correctly or not without ever having met us.

*Where is the respect for each parent to parent their child in the way they feel is best?* I wouldn't judge any of you for not vaccinating your child or choosing to give your child medication or not. Only YOU know your children and live with your children and know what's best for your children. Who would I be to say what's right for your kids? I would never presume to make such judgments, even if I read tons of postings about your child and his/her problems. YOU are the parent, and YOU are the only one who can decide what is right for your child.

One person mentioned that many of her family members are on medication and that it has been helpful. I have had the OPPOSITE experience with mental health medications, which I had taken in the past for severe depression. I've had antidepressant medications cause me to be violent (at age 19, which I had never been in the past and haven't been since!), anxious, and suicidal. I've seen friends and extended family members have hideous reactions to various mental health medications. I am surprised that for all the anti-vaccination and anti-big pharma attitude that is on MDC that everyone has bought the "Psychiatric medications are WONDERFUL!" message hook, line, and sinker. It is really frightening.

What finally worked for me and kept my depression away even in the midst of living through the stress of all my son and I have been through is a shift in my mindset that I learned through therapy (cognitive behavioral therapy, EMDR, the positive psychology movement, and dialectical behavioral therapy), and more than anything else, acupuncture.

If a medication works for you or your kids, great! I have never personally seen a psychiatric medicine work for myself or anyone I personally know. I am sure it works for some people, but since my family tends to be a family who reacts intensely to medications, I approach this with great fear. I am allergic to many different medications (have had allergic reactions), as have my parents, and we also tend to have extreme and unusual reactions to many medications. It's different for me trying something because I am an adult and I can clearly verbalize what's going on with me. My son isn't old enough to verbalize his reactions in the same way.

My son is practically a baby, and giving him something that can alter his brain, and some even argue can cause brain damage, is very scary to me. One of the medications causes an average of 10-20 pounds of weight gain in 50% of kids who take it, and also causes insulin resistance and metabolic issues, including diabetes. Others suggested can cause heart failure, psychosis, liver failure, or suicidal thoughts. Really? And I shouldn't be at all concerned about giving this to my child? These are medications that are not even tested on kids in most cases. I may get to a point that I feel I HAVE to try medication, but I am thinking critically, researching, and weighing all options. I am not going to just jump on the medication bandwagon without seriously evaluating all of the pros and cons.

Sorry if I am getting a little testy, but people have been all over me on MDC for being resistant to give my son meds, and I just don't get it. Absolutely don't get it.

Also, so many people have been convinced that he is seriously mentally ill or bipolar or whatever, yet even the psychiatrist we just saw didn't think so. She said that he is a "severely traumatized boy" who has been through a lot, and that he's acting out because of that trauma. She didn't think there was anything that indicated a mental health problem in terms of bipolar disorder or anything like that.

It just irks me that people seem to think that I need a different therapist or different psychiatrist because they don't personally agree with what the therapist (the experts, and those who have in some cases seen my son for a year or more!) has said. It sounds like people just want me to keep trying another therapist or another psychiatrist until they agree that my son is severely mentally ill.

In any case, this has moved to a discussion of my son's mental health and behavior, and is really getting off the topic of my original post. *This is why I didn't include all this information in my original posting, because I just wanted to have a simple discussion about what other kids my son's age are doing in regards to genital curiosity, looking, showing, etc.*

I suppose we've covered that topic in enough detail, and I feel like I have enough information to proceed, though if anyone else has something to share about their experience with their kids exploring (or not exploring) body parts, please do!

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Owen'nZoe*
> 
> Look, I've gone back and read prior posts about her son. I get that she is dealing with a lot of issues with her son. But I stand by what I said - the tone of some of the responses has been less than kind. And I understand that a lot of you have been following her story for quite some time and may seem frustrated that they haven't been solved, but really, for those of us who don't know Bisou and her son in person and haven't seen what she is going through and trying day to day, *we've seen just the tusk or the tail of the proverbial elephant by reading her posts.* To say definitively that her son needs meds or judge that she is or isn't taking the actions she needs to based on what little we've seen of her life is kind of absurd.


----------



## Bisou

APToddlerMama:

In saying there are things I've said about my son's therapist that "makes her sound terrible," are you referring to the peeing the pants incident I talked about in the other thread? I suppose I am getting us further off track here by continuing to refer to the other thread, but I was just curious.

I do feel like perhaps our time with that therapist has come to an end. My son will be seeing a new therapist who does EMDR (a trauma therapy) on Monday, so perhaps she will end up being more helpful. I am having to pay for that out of pocket ($120 per session!), so I am not sure how long I can continue.

Our therapy benefits through our insurance company (HMO) are very difficult to come by. Even in the months immediately after the break in when I was just terrified of everything almost 24/7, I could only get in to see a therapist every 1-2 months! When I said this wasn't enough, they just said it was all they could do, or I could go to a depression and anxiety group, which didn't help at all.

It's the same situation for my son. We are in a referral outside of our insurance group, and she sees us once per week (or even more if needed). They are now cutting back on all outside referrals (which would mean my son probably wouldn't get another outside referral), so my son would only be able to see someone probably once a month or so within our HMO. It's just a joke.

I have asked about getting more regular therapy for myself so many times. Once my therapist said if I was that desperate for regular therapy, they could hospitalize me! While I am extremely stressed, I would not classify myself currently as depressed or anxious or anything else. I just have some extremely stressful life situations. I was asking to see a therapist once per week or at the least, every other week. So my option is basically see someone about 6-12 times per YEAR, or be in the hospital. Seriously? That didn't even make sense to me.

This is why I am very reluctant to change therapists for my son. It could be that we either stick with his current therapist or he sees someone about 6-12 times per year. Also, if we asked to change therapists, it's very likely that we would be on a wait list for several months before he could even get in to see anyone, because this is typical at our HMO. We had to wait an entire month for an urgent psychiatrist appointment.

It might be that we go from having someone who is ok (but not perfect, though a GREAT support to me as a parent!) to having someone we don't like or can hardly see. My son's current therapist will take calls from me on nights and weekends when I feel like I am in an emergency. She gives me lots of support about what she thinks I am doing well and gives me strategies for how I could improve things. I think her relationship with my son is fractured after the peeing incident though. He's clashed with her nearly every session since that happened, and he never really did that before. So that makes me really sad. He always seemed to enjoy seeing her in the past until that happened.

Anyway, this is WAY off the topic and should probably be on my GD thread, but just thought I'd explain the therapy part in more detail and why it's not so easy to just "get a different therapist."

My mom is helping me pay for the EMDR therapist because there's no way I can afford it, and I don't know how long she can afford it. That is going to cost at least *$480 PER MONTH!* That is a HUGE expense! I am supporting my son and I on an college adjunct teacher's income (read: not much money, lots of work!). I do not receive child support from my son's dad, so I am completely on my own as far as finances go.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> No, no, no. You cannot take daycare out of the equation. That is a huge part of the equation as it was a huge source of trauma for this child. That cannot be ignored.
> 
> Bisou--You are right. You are doing A LOT for your son, and to suggest that his issues from birth are your fault, is wrong. I think you are really on the right track. In my mind at least, I just think its important that you are working with a good therapist and some of the things you've said about yours make her sound terrible. I think also people don't want to hear the sexual stuff being minimized. You absolutely deserve much more credit and support than you've been given though.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *D_McG*
> 
> I wonder if it's not time to take the daycare issues completely out of the equation, get a referral to a good child psychiatrist and be honest about every single thing that's going on.
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## Bisou

I am just thinking. . . . . . .

We've been getting a little off the topic of the original thread and the original intent of posting this thread, which was *to understand what other kids my son's age are doing in regards to being curious about other people's bodies, particularly "private areas."* I think a lot of people have shared interesting stories about this topic, and it's given me a good range of responses about what other people's kids are doing or not doing.

If people feel the need to respond to me about my son, but not directly related to the issue of genital curiosity, it might be more appropriate to post on my other thread. http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/1137864/help-severe-aggressive-defiant-behavior/460

However, I am hoping not to continue a debate about meds/no meds, or whether I am not doing the right thing or not. I would prefer not to have more criticism or critique of what I am doing or not doing, or not doing enough of, or anything along those lines. That's simply not helpful to me as a person. It makes me feel defensive, hurt, and judged, and it doesn't provide anything helpful or beneficial. Criticism makes me not want to return to MDC, to not read or post on these threads anymore.

There have been a lot of mamas who've offered some great suggestions about my son over the year or so that I've posted about my son's behavioral problems. (My first post on my other thread was September 2009.) However, there have also been some people who've been critical about how I am responding to my son's issues, particularly those who INSIST that my son needs medication, and some have even gone so far as to suggest that I am abusing/neglecting my son because I haven't medicated him. While I may reach the point where I decide to try this, I don't think it's the magical cure that some people think it is. And it's not without possible side effects, and very severe side effects, in some cases! My family tends to respond with severe reactions to many different kinds of medications. I am allergic to several different kinds of medications, as is my mother and several other family members. (My mom was once prescribed the vitamin niacin for high cholesterol. The first day of taking it, her face swelled up so much she looked like this woman except her face was bright red and her cheeks were more swollen! I am not kidding! We had to rush her to the ER.) I am the kind of person who gets the awful, weird side effect that no one ever gets. I am very sensitive to medications. Is it unreasonable to think my son might be the same?

In any case, *I think that it's each parent's role to decide what's right for their own children. * I wouldn't criticize any of you for choosing to medicate your children, or feed them meat, or eat a non-organic diet, or not vaccinating because you think it's unsafe (or the reverse), or letting them watch TV, or drink unpasteurized milk, or whatever, and I would like to be given the same respect and consideration. I think outside of giving our children proper care (food, clothing, shelter, and love) and medical treatment for obvious medical emergencies (your child is having trouble breathing, you call 911!) that most of the rest of it is up for us to decide what's right for our kids.


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## Cekimon

thanks for starting this thread. some of the information shared by you and others has been very helpful.


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## haleyelianasmom

Bisou, I have only read the first and last pages of this thread and I need to go to bed, but I had to respond...I'm really surprised by the comments I'm reading. Maybe people are so phobic of any sexual talk that they act as if a child obviously needs serious herlp to be curious. Personally, it sounds relatively normal. I only have a daughter, but she has a certain level of curiosity herself, and she goes through phases of greater curiosity. She has never been in day care, never been abused in any way, and we make sure to talk to her about what is appropriate for public and what needs to be kept private. Anyways, sorry if you are feeling attacked in this thread, kit sounds like you are working hard to do what you think is best


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## GoBecGo

Hey Bisou,

Just stopping back to tell you about last week...

My DDs and i went to see a friend (one who will be visiting any minute today in fact!). My DD is 4.5 and so is her DS (her DS is being evaluated for ASD just now, but no formal dx yet, just a collection of slightly "off" behaviours). Her son is VERY into bums right now! He was pulling down DD1 and his own sister (who is 2)'s pants and shouting "peachy bum peachy bum". Eventually DD1 got sick of it and yelled at him to stop, and he did, but he continued to do it to his sister until she cried and came to find us (we were listening closely but have a policy of not interfering unless the kids get aggressive or obviously NEED intervention). We did a bunch of "sorting out" which ranged from telling DS "leave everyone's bums alone now!" and telling his sister "put pants and trousers on if you don't want him looking at your bum!" and my DD1 "tell him you don't want him to if you don't want him to. There is no need to hit."

I was reflecting on this thread on the way home. For us in that situation the main issue is that her DS has very poor impulse control, even for a 4yo, because he's quite obsessive. He cannot stop doing one thing until he begins obsessively doing another thing. But he is a very sweet boy who would never wittingly harm his friend or his sister, and HE gets distressed if they are upset, even as he is still stuck trying to repeat his behaviour. I have another friend who's sons literally NEVER showed any sexual curiosity and are 10 and 13 now and the eldest is just hitting puberty.

So i guess i think what you describe IS in the realms of normal, BUT it's not happening with EVERY child. I think some of the harshness on this thread is because some people genuinely have never dealt with it and they don't get that it can be normal, just like in other places on MDC people don't "believe" in HN babies (or don't get what they are like), are worried if a baby doesn't poop for 10days (since all THEIR kids go every day and always did), or are freaked out by a ballooning foreskin (because no intact men they no had one ever - i was one of those people BTW and i live in the UK hardly anyone is circ'd here!). "Normal" needn't be "common" or "frequent".


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## Bisou

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pupsnelda*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Owen'nZoe*
> 
> Bisou, I just wanted to offer hugs - some of the responses on this thread have been brutal. I've not had to deal with anything like you are dealing with, but I give you all the credit in the world for everything you have tried and are continuing to try.
> 
> 
> 
> Brutal? I disagree. Some of the responses have been concerned and actually those posters who have read the whole background are worried about the child. In this case you just have to have the complete history, it changes the perspective totally.
> 
> And I agree with you, the OP has tried very hard and for a very long time. But her refusal to accept the possibility of a mental health issue of her son which needs meds doesn't seem reasonable. There has been suffering for YEARS. Her son has suffered, she has suffered. She has tried many, many different approaches, natural ways, but as fas as I can see it, none has been really effective, slightly effective sometimes, sure. But IMO not enough.
Click to expand...

I DO feel that many of the replies have been brutal, and since I am the one these posts are directed at, aren't my feelings important?

You say I "refuse to accept the possibility of a mental health issue," yet no one has diagnosed my son with a mental health issue. What's his current diagnosis? "Adjustment disorder." This is just a generic term they apply to kids having a hard time adjusting to a change in their lives.

I don't think anyone's opinion of whether I am doing "enough" is really appropriate! Or kind. I would never say the same thing about your parenting choices. Honestly, if you disagree with what I am doing with my son, then just stop reading the thread. Debating with me or other people about whether I am reacting appropriately to my son's issues is not helpful, fair, or kind. You're only getting a tiny glimpse into our lives and that doesn't make you qualified to decide how I should or shouldn't be rearing my child. *I don't think being "concerned" gives you license to criticize me for not making the same choices you would make for your own child.*

And as other posters have said, that wasn't my question in posting this thread. *My question was simply this: What are your kids doing in terms of sexual curiosity* (or genital curiosity, or however you want to label it).


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## Bisou

GoBecGo~

Thanks for the response! I totally agree with what you've said. Normal is a RANGE of behaviors, and this is why I posted: to get an idea of the range.

I also have to wonder with the kids that didn't show any sexual curiosity or behavior whether they were just doing that in secret? I am sure some of them aren't, but I have to think that just because parents aren't aware of it, that doesn't mean it isn't happening! My son has been very open about what's happening, and when other parents have been told about it (what their children were doing with my son and later admitted to initiating themselves) they were completely shocked and said their child had never done this before. Obviously they didn't tell their parents about it either!

My son hasn't had any further incidents since I originally posted with this question. I did order some books about bodies and private areas, and he has been very curious about those books and looking at the one that shows drawings of boys and girls bodies from time to time. He's had a lot of questions about the different body parts, so we've spent a lot of time reading and discussing that. His favorite book is "It's Not the Stork" (http://www.amazon.com/Its-Not-Stork-Families-Friends/dp/0763600474), and I think it's pretty good overall, especially for kids of this age. I also like that it shows a drawing of both a circ and intact penis and just says that some boys look like this, and other boys look like this. He's asked a lot of questions about that as well.

It seems like lots of the parents who replied had more than one child, and I only have one, so he isn't around other naked kids EVER, so I think he has more curiosity because there's no brother or sister around who's having baths or diaper changes or just running around the house naked.


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## Bisou

Thanks haleyelianasmom and Cekimon for your posts.

I have learned a lot from some of the mamas who have posted. I was raised in an extremely conservative fundamentalist Christian home, and I was told to NEVER touch my genitals for any reason, which lead to me never even washing the area until I was in my late teens!

While I didn't do any sexual play when I was a child (out of fear of extreme punishment for such behavior!), when I did become sexually active as a young teen, I definitely didn't talk to anyone about it. I am lucky that I wasn't pregnant at 15! I don't want my son to have this same shame and secrecy about his body and sexuality.

Even though I am about a million times more open minded than my parents, I still have some discomfort with some of these topics when it comes to talking to my son, so it's been good to hear other people's feelings about this issue.


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## martin18

Dear Bisou,

I just came to your thread as I've just had the most awful day - won't go in to detail now (perhaps will post separate thread depending on how my googling goes), but my 6 year old has been acting out this week quite weirdly towards the 3 year old son of friends we are staying with, there has been a lot of naked bottoms, joint trips to the bathroom, locked doors, poop smearing, water guns pointed up bottoms etc. My friends (quite understandably) don't want the kids to be together on their own, but they are also concerned that my son might have been abused in some way. I am horrified and mortified and everything else, of course, but this has just come out of nowhere, and it stretches my imagination to think of abuse as a possibility (and no, I'm not in denial, it's something that has always been on my mind, like any other realistic parent). Anyway, I just wondered if you could let me/us know how your son is doing on this front now, 2 years later, if you're still around! I'm just reading a lot today and trying to work out if what he has been doing can in any way be construed as "normal".

(I'd also like to add my voice, so much later, to those who find many of the replies to your query to have been deeply offensive. We all have our opinions, and some, or many, may believe that your son's behavior at the time was very worrying. But I have a real problem with the tone of many (not all) of those who did. So many of the things that were said could have been said in a much softer and supportive fashion. I just don't understand why people can't consider the impact of their words before posting. Anyway, that's my 2c worth after so very long, and sorry if this is just dragging up a very painful topic for you again at this point!)


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