# thoughts on sleep and culture



## schreiberwriter (Aug 3, 2005)

Over the past few months I've been noticing a few interesting comments/thoughts from mainstream media:
--learning to put oneself asleep is a valuable life skill
--babies need to learn to self-sooth
--parents want their kids to fall asleep by themselves at all ages
--everyone is concerned about babies sleeping through the night

I think these assumptions/beliefs are bogus for the most part.

There are so many books written about babies and sleep--why is this? What's the big deal? Why is there so much pressure?

What if a child does need help going to sleep? Are they going to be ruined forever? Will I need to snuggle DS to sleep when he goes to college?


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## Autumn C. (Jul 30, 2008)

I'm not a big fan of the infants must learn to self-soothe but I can tell you my whole everything is revolving around sleep or the lack thereof.

I can't believe I'm the only one dealing with sleep deprivation so poorly. And yes, I am dealing with this unbelievably poorly.


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## sheashea (Aug 28, 2008)

I am a new mama of a five week old baby boy and I am SO glad that I found encouragement and validation around co-sleeping while I was pregnant... I had received a lot of discouraging messages about co-sleeping and probably would have insisted on using a basinet, and given myself tons of stress.

My lo will ONLY sleep when he is next to me. He is currently napping in the wrap carrier, hence allowing me to participate in this forum. If I get up after he has fallen asleep, he starts reaching for me and wakes up. Because night time is my longest sleep period, it is also becoming his. He far from sleeps through the night, but I am increasingly losing track of how many times he bfs at night since we are both half asleep for these feedings.

Some rigid schedulalists would discourage this hap-hazard style of night feeding, but I figure if he is healthy and gaining weight, why worry? Ironically, I think the crib culture actually makes sleeping through the night MORE unlikely because the child is not in rhythm with the parents' cycles. Parents also become more desperate to have the baby sleep through the night because getting up and going to a nursery for feedings is onerous and exhausting.

Some nights are better than others for us, but I feel that I am getting enough rest during the "fourth trimester." I realize that not all babies will sleep at night even in a co-sleeping arrangement... I just want to say how happy I am that I received validation of co-sleeping because it has really worked for us.


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## SophieAnn (Jun 26, 2007)

I hear ya! I don't have any kids yet, but I have 2 friends with young babies. Anytime I ask "how are you and the lo doing?" they immediately respond with talking about sleep - "oh great, the last few nights (s)he slept for 7 hours straight! but we're still working on getting naps consistent."

Seriously, sleep is the first thing they talk about. I feel bad, because I wonder if they're getting pressure from others asking them about sleep - like "is (s)he STTN yet?". I try to NEVER bring it up - and when they seem to be bragging that their lo is STTN at 1-3 mos. I just say something to the effect that I'm surprised it would happen so young, that it's not typical, etc. I'd hate for them to think it's "normal" or something they should be striving to achieve consistently at such a young age.

There does seem to be an obsession with sleep (esp. independent) though.


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## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

I don't get it either. I can't imagine the sort of guff I'd get from people if they knew we STILL coslept with my 3.5 year old and that I or DH still snuggle him to sleep every night.

I know that some babies don't sleep...my DD went through that phase. and it was so hard...the sleep deprivation really got to me...

I generally tell people that in all reality this is SUCH a short season I get with my kids. I get 18 years to have them under my roof and then they spend the next 50 (or so) years out in the world...I'm not going to whine about having to snuggle my son for 4 years (or so) in a few years he'll be too cool to hug his old mom...


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## tuscany123 (Feb 15, 2004)

When DD was born almost 5 yrs ago, I did not know about safe bedsharing. I succombed to the mainstream advice I got, which said babe must sleep in her own space, away from me. So, for the 1st 3 months, I struggled with night time parenting. I thought I was a failure because my LO did not STTN. I nursed each time she woke, but removed her from the bassinet each time, and she and I both were completely awake for each of these feedings. We were both wrecks!

I happened to find Mothering magazine in the checkout line at the local health food store, and from there found these forums. One night, ill with a cold, and too exhausted to do anything else, I crawled into bed with DD. She was 4 mos old. We learned sidelying nursing in one session, and to my surprise, we both STTN. To me, STTN means my LO is with me in bed, or sidecarred in a crib, and I nurse on demand, but neither of us really wakes up. I guess the mainstream folks would say this is not technically STTN, but I say to heck with that. All I know is I wake up rested, in a good mood, and that's what counts for me. Now with my 2nd child, what I have learned about co-sleeping has helped us since the day he came into the world.

Thank God for MDC. It totally reshaped my outlook on so many parenting issues. I no longer sweat it when I get asked well-meaning (usually!) questions about LO's sleeping or nursing patterns. I simply answer "he sleeps great" or "he so healthy, he eats exactly as often as he needs to" I am am so grateful that MDC was there for me.


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## Devaya (Sep 23, 2007)

I agree with Tuscany - MDC has revolutionised my thinking and given me so much more confidence about these things. Yesterday I bumped into an ex-colleague from work and her partner and 4 month old baby. Boy, were they keen to boast that their baby now 'self soothed' because she had started being 'stricter' (Not CIO, just refusing to give the breast until it was a certain time of the morning...at 4 months!). Instead of talking about the many other things I'm sure their baby is doing or being,it was all about how proud they were of her to have started sleeping more on her own, etc etc.

I just stood there with my eleven month old strapped to me (who co-sleeps etc) and their baby was lying contentedly in her pushchair just gurgling kind of thing, and I found it really difficult. I always feel like I'm completely in the minority, which is why I'm so grateful for MDC for helping me not feel like a freak! (and reminding me all babies are different and there' s nothing wrong with mine).

Even that book 'What to expect in the first year' says that learning to go to sleep on your own is 'one of life's most important skills' ...huh? how about learning to be confident and secure in your own skin, and to give and receive love? I'd say that's more important!


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## sept15lija (Jun 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Autumn C.* 
I'm not a big fan of the infants must learn to self-soothe but I can tell you my whole everything is revolving around sleep or the lack thereof.

I can't believe I'm the only one dealing with sleep deprivation so poorly. And yes, I am dealing with this unbelievably poorly.









Just wanted to let you know you are not the only one dealing with this poorly. I am at my wit's end sometimes. I am sometimes truly resentful and angry at my sweet baby boy. Those are the times that DH takes over generally....or else I just cry and keep rocking him. Dealing with multiple (MULTIPLE!) night wakings for months (years??!!) on end is very difficult, IMO.


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## Mama Poot (Jun 12, 2006)

The best thing I ever read in terms of sleep and culture went something like this (paraphrasing from a quotation in "the Happiest Baby on the Block")

"If a self-indulgent old man like me (a doctor) can get out of bed in the middle of the night to help a stranger, certainly a mother can do this for her own child. No one gets a full nights' sleep and noone is entitled to it either".


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

I slept with both my kids when they were babies.

Okay, okay. I'll admit it. We still sleep together sometimes now.







I'm a single working mom, and I have joint custody. All of us cuddling together is just wonderful sometimes. Yet they know if I need my space. I have no problems on the nights I let them know when it's just not going to work for me.

The are 6 and 8. A boy and girl, respectively. I was just telling my dd last night about how sleeping with her may have saved her life. (We were on the topic of "when they were babies".)

When she was a small infant, we were sleeping side by side in the middle of the night when I felt her twitching around. My instincts led me to roll her onto her stomach and pat her on the back. She had actually stopped breathing!!! She spit up a bit after I changed her position and started breathing again. Who knows - she could have been a "SIDS" baby had she been in a crib.

That really made me a believer.


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## texmati (Oct 19, 2004)

i don't know if this helps anyone... but my dh is from india, and he thinks it's borderline neglect to leave a small child alone all night in it's own bed or room.

Not sure I compleately agree with him, just pointing out that cultural norms are just that-- cultural.


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## triscuitsmom (Jan 11, 2007)

As someone who hasn't gotten a full nights sleep in over two years... and probably won't for many more years to come as this in utero baby is now already keeping me up at night with pregnancy back pain, and then I'm sure will keep me up at night when s/he is out too I can say that I'm so glad MDC exists. It is so nice to feel not alone, and to get really advice that isn't just CIO, or "you created this monster". I've been in the no sleep for days hell, and at least for me, having people to listen and offer advice that is actually looking at what's best for parent and child, not just what would be "best" for the parent, is helpful.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

I also wanted to add -- man, if people really think that something as nuturing and normal as cosleeping creates "monsters", they cannot be very intelligent and thoughtful individuals!


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## nov05mama (Mar 29, 2007)

I don't get it either, and have asked many of the same questions...


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## LionessMom (Mar 12, 2008)

schreiberwriter said:


> --learning to put oneself asleep is a valuable life skill
> *which is learned by sleeping w/parent*
> --babies need to learn to self-sooth
> *which they learn by being soothed by their parent*
> ...


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## sept15lija (Jun 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *triscuitsmom* 
As someone who hasn't gotten a full nights sleep in over two years... and probably won't for many more years to come as this in utero baby is now already keeping me up at night with pregnancy back pain, and then I'm sure will keep me up at night when s/he is out too I can say that I'm so glad MDC exists. It is so nice to feel not alone, and to get really advice that isn't just CIO, or "you created this monster". I've been in the no sleep for days hell, and at least for me, having people to listen and offer advice that is actually looking at what's best for parent and child, not just what would be "best" for the parent, is helpful.

I agree! It's so difficult IRL to talk to people about these issues. Sometimes it's just helpful to vent about frustrations, and you may not necessarily be looking for advice. But advice is what you receive! And you get those looks like "well if you would only let him CIO..." etc etc. Sigh. Whenever I am frustrated with DS' sleep I think about all the other mothers and fathers who are going through the same thing - and knowing we are doing what is best for our little ones.


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## I-AM-Mother (Aug 6, 2008)

none of my children slept alone. the first few days home, I would stay in the bed most of the time with nothing on and have my children lay on my chest and stomach with nothing but a diaper laying under their privates.

another thing, children feel around in their sleep to see if they are alone.


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## MilkTrance (Jul 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *I-AM-Mother* 

another thing, children feel around in their sleep to see if they are alone.

yeah they really do

it's so cute


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## schreiberwriter (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Autumn C.* 
I'm not a big fan of the infants must learn to self-soothe but I can tell you my whole everything is revolving around sleep or the lack thereof.

I can't believe I'm the only one dealing with sleep deprivation so poorly. And yes, I am dealing with this unbelievably poorly.









Autumn, I've been thinking about this comment. I wondered how you saw how your sleep deprivation was related to the cultural values I noted. Is it because you want your baby to sleep through the night so you can? That makes sense.

Just wondering.....


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## Autumn C. (Jul 30, 2008)

Yes, that's precisely it.

I sometimes think that had I not been _expecting_ her to STTN (at least 5 hours) by four months old I wouldn't have been so quick to become upset (not sure that's the right word) that she hasn't gotten anywhere near STTN.

Also, I've noticed that I've actually become _embarrased_ when people ask if she's STTN yet. Because her frequent waking MUST be a reflection of my poor mothering i.e. I've spoiled her because I hold her too much (I baby wear), I should just let her cry, I'm robbing her of an important skill -to self soothe- for my own reasons, etc.

Basically, I mean what I feel is the cultural pressure to have a baby STTN is almost as difficult, for me, as the actual sleep deprivation.


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## Devaya (Sep 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama Poot* 
The best thing I ever read in terms of sleep and culture went something like this (paraphrasing from a quotation in "the Happiest Baby on the Block")

"If a self-indulgent old man like me (a doctor) can get out of bed in the middle of the night to help a stranger, certainly a mother can do this for her own child. No one gets a full nights' sleep and noone is entitled to it either".

i just read that quote the other day in 'the womanly art of breastfeeding' and it actually made me feel loads better. Although I also struggle, often , with multiple night wakings, i find it doesnt help my resentment if I feel 'entitled' to that sleep and start thinking along the lines of 'why should i have to put up with this' etc...if i accept it more, its easier. Still feel tired though!


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## Devaya (Sep 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *I-AM-Mother* 

another thing, children feel around in their sleep to see if they are alone.

yes, i've noticed this lately - my b aby has been waking up often every few minutes after i put him to bed initially (we join him later when we go to bed), and i realised that he was doing exactly what you mention, and that was waking him up.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Autumn C.* 
Yes, that's precisely it.

I sometimes think that had I not been _expecting_ her to STTN (at least 5 hours) by four months old I wouldn't have been so quick to become upset (not sure that's the right word) that she hasn't gotten anywhere near STTN.

Also, I've noticed that I've actually become _embarrased_ when people ask if she's STTN yet. Because her frequent waking MUST be a reflection of my poor mothering i.e. I've spoiled her because I hold her too much (I baby wear), I should just let her cry, I'm robbing her of an important skill -to self soothe- for my own reasons, etc.

Basically, I mean what I feel is the cultural pressure to have a baby STTN is almost as difficult, for me, as the actual sleep deprivation.









I was exactly where you are almost 2 years ago. Things were able to turn around for me though because DS was very easy at night. We'd nurse in our sleep and I stopped opening my eyes.


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## tuscany123 (Feb 15, 2004)

Quote:

Basically, I mean what I feel is the cultural pressure to have a baby STTN is almost as difficult, for me, as the actual sleep deprivation
.

I think you hit the nail on the head with this comment. I feel the same way. When I talk to Mom's from other cultures (not-mainstream American), they almost whisper to me that they sleep with their babies. I tell them there are lots of us out there, but we don't broadcast it because it's such an unpopular concept. In our case, my DH sleeps with our almost 5-yr old DD a lot lately, in her bed, because we have a 3 month old that needs my attention at night. But I don't want some person with faulty sex-predator radar to hear that "Dad is sleeping with his daughter" and go calling CPS! This is a very real fear I have, people are all too quick to jump to conclusions. Maybe I am over thinking this, but it is a very real concern of mine.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

I think the basis of these cultural values is pretty simple.

1) You have parents of babies and toddlers who are not getting the sleep they'd prefer. (That's the reality of parenthood for the most part). This could be related to our use of cribs, or not - that's another debate, but either way, you've got parents who want the quality of sleep they are not getting.

2) You live in a country with a huge media industry.

3) The media knows they can sell millions of parents a magazine (or a book or whatever) with headlines like "Get baby to sleep through the night with 3 easy steps!"

4) Parents buy them and read them.

5) They assert to other parents what they learned there, including tidbits of wisdom like "There is no need to martyr yourself" and "You should expect Baby to sleep through the night by X age" and so on. These tidbits are not based on facts but based on their desire to SELL you the magazine (and the related book by the author, too, of course








).

6) Parents accept as gospel, develop a self-righteous attitude about their entitlement to 8 solid hours at all times, and spread it around.

Yay.


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## rissierae (Feb 5, 2008)

I think that our culture has over analyzed a lot concerning the development of children, including sleep. The way I see it, babies need our help doing everything in the begining. And it takes a long time for them to learn how to do things by themselves, it's as simple as that. For example, eating. When babies are first born they can't even get the nipple by themsleves, and it takes almost 3 years before they really learn how to eat with out any help at all. Likewise, it stands to reason that they might need our help to sleep for that long or longer depending on the kid.

For some reason in our culture there is this rush for kids to learn how to sleep on their own ASAP. While other daily activities like eating, and going to the bathroom on their own, you look for "readiness" signs, and are free to take a long time without rushing anything.

There is also this idea that babies are set against their parents especially when it comes to sleep. For that reason you need to "show them who is boss" by leaving them in their room to sleep on their own. I beleive the contrary is true, babies _want_ to sleep, they just can't do it on their own yet. Parents should let their babies/children sleep with them for however long it takes until they are confident enough to want to sleep by themselves.


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## beru (Nov 19, 2007)

I think there are so many books about baby sleep because none of them work. Why is that? Because it is not natural for babies to sleep through the night. Our culture is in serious denial about reasonal expectations for infant sleep!


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## veganone (May 10, 2007)

Me too... I think some people don't realize that when I say DD is a bad sleeper, it means EVERY NIGHT. Bad nights are the rule, not the exception. I don't expect her to STTN, and I adore co-sleeping, but the lack of sleep is becoming a real problem for me, DD, and DH.

I seriously don't know if my marriage will survive until DD does sleep well. And I don't mean STTN, I mean for more than a couple of hours a stretch on a regular basis.

And frankly, a lot of people I know do have kids that sleep well. Not all of them, but most. And many of them are AP. So I do believe that it's more the child than the technique you use.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Autumn C.* 
I'm not a big fan of the infants must learn to self-soothe but I can tell you my whole everything is revolving around sleep or the lack thereof.

I can't believe I'm the only one dealing with sleep deprivation so poorly. And yes, I am dealing with this unbelievably poorly.


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## abharrington (Jun 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tuscany123* 
I no longer sweat it when I get asked well-meaning (usually!) questions about LO's sleeping or nursing patterns. I simply answer "he sleeps great".

hehehe...that is my favorite line! not too many are rude enough to follow it up with, oh really, so how many hours does he sleep? but if they do, i just include all the hours we are both in bed sleeping/nursing. and for the nursing/eating questions, so far i have been blessed with beautifully healthy babies so i just say, well look at him.


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## Mama_Meme (Apr 18, 2007)

i think a big reason why people are at the place now is because at some point, we STOPPED sleeping with our children, and now there's several generations of people who feel that cosleeping is weird, because there were generations who didn't do it. If my grandmother, say, had coslept, my mom might think it was much less weird, and not try to pressure me to get a crib so that she can learn to sleep through the night.

I still have trouble going to sleep by myself. My mother NEVER coslept with me. I used to ask her ALL the time to sleep with her, up until 15!!! I know that I slept so much better when she actually did let me sleep with her. From that I know that sleeping with my baby now helps her in the future.

I think that sleep is focused on a lot, as well, because many people in our society work/overwork themselves into a place where sleep becomes the only resting time of the day, and is therefore coveted so much more. If we lived in a culture that was more slow-paced, we might be able to handle missing a little more sleep rather than freaking out when our tiny little ones don't sleep through the night (i mean, seriously... when their stomachs are the sizes of chick peas... how does someone expect them to NOT wake up hungry??? oi!)

that's my take on the cultural stuffs.


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## Selesai (Oct 26, 2005)

I have not read the other replies.

I think part of the problem is that society is not set up to allow families (parents) to deal with children the way that children really are. I would love to never worry about sleep deprivation and just sleep when my children sleep. But I have to work, and that means that sleep deprivation affects my job, my safety (driving), etc in ways it wouldn't otherwise. It also affects my marriage since we argue more when we are tired.

That being said, I do think that some people want children to go to sleep by themselves and sleep all night by themselves and to go to sleep by themselves because they want their time alone or because they don't want to put the work in or to adjust their lives in the small ways required. Someone I know, a SAHM of 1 then-10mo old, allowed her child to CIO (albeit, it didn't take long) instead of adjust her own bedtime so she could get more sleep.

Also, I don't mind telling people that DS doesn't STTN. I want people to hear it and one day maybe realize that it is normal.


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## ainh (Jul 27, 2006)

I don't know that this is just an American problem, to be honest. I spent the fall in France and my dad lives in rural Costa Rica with two young ones (7 and 3), so I've seen a lot of different reactions to our co-sleeping ways. I think sleep is an issue in all cultures, not just ours....


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## thefragile7393 (Jun 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *schreiberwriter* 
Over the past few months I've been noticing a few interesting comments/thoughts from mainstream media:
--learning to put oneself asleep is a valuable life skill
--babies need to learn to self-sooth
--parents want their kids to fall asleep by themselves at all ages
--everyone is concerned about babies sleeping through the night

I think these assumptions/beliefs are bogus for the most part.

There are so many books written about babies and sleep--why is this? What's the big deal? Why is there so much pressure?

What if a child does need help going to sleep? Are they going to be ruined forever? Will I need to snuggle DS to sleep when he goes to college?

I agree they are bogus, but so many people buy into them....can't tell you how many threads are started on all of those points I see on other boards. It's like an obsession. Mainstream docs and parenting books thrive on those topics.

Sleep IS important for all, and it's a lot harder iif you have a high-needs child or a naturally poor sleeper or whatever. I have a lot of respect for the mamas on this board when they come here for help----they desparately want to help themselves and their children sleep but want to avoid not meeting their needs. It's nice to see mamas not buying into the cultural norms of western society.

Quote:

I think part of the problem is that society is not set up to allow families (parents) to deal with children the way that children really are.
Yeah this for sure.

Quote:

For some reason in our culture there is this rush for kids to learn how to sleep on their own ASAP.
It's an independence thing, people want their children to be independent from a very early age, instead of growing into independence. Don't nurse/rock/bottle/whatever to sleep because it causes bad habits, don't let them sleep in your bed because it causes bad habits.......I thought nose-picking was a bad habit, or leaving toenail clippings around....apparently not.


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## BaBaBa (Jun 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aquarian* 
i don't know if this helps anyone... but my dh is from india, and he thinks it's borderline neglect to leave a small child alone all night in it's own bed or room.

This reminds me of A Jhumpa Lahiri story I just read.
She writes about the Bengali immigrant experience in America.
The mother had slept in the same room as her parents until she married. She believed American mothers were neglectful for putting their babies to sleep in other rooms. The daughter who has born and raised in America felt alienated from her peers and kept it her secret until her mother let her have her own room.


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