# Should children just do as they are told ALL THE TIME?



## Mama_2_Boy (Jun 18, 2007)

DS is going to be 5 soon. He's always had a bit of a wandering mind and he's not always so quick to jump to attention when you ask him something or tell him to do something.
Anways - this is the one and only ongoing battle between me and DH. My husband feels that DS should ALWAYS do as he is told. My argument is that, "well you should pick your battles and decide what is worth a fight and what is not"....but he does not agree and we fight about it because I sometimes intervene when DH is verbally scolding DS for his inability to conform at that moment. Honestly, sometimes it's really lame things. Like DS might be playing with something and I'm calling him to sit for supper and he won't come. He'll acknowledge "coming" and doesn't move right away and DH gets upset and starts in on him about "listening". I might jump in and say "leave him alone already! You're just upset because you can't control him" This is a real sore spot with DH because he says I'm undermining his authority ..... which I probably am. But I'm tired of seeing DH getting upset with DS over little things KWIM? And then maybe tossing him into bed and telling him to stay there until he can learn to realize he HAS TO LISTEN. DH has stated that from now on, no matter what it is, if DS does not do as he is told - not matter what it is - then he has to be put in bed.
I AM DESPERATE! Although I understand my DH's point about the importance of listening, I feel its unreasonable to expect a child to listen ALL THE TIME, or even comply all the time. DH feels that if I don't be persistent with DS all the time, that DS is just going to take advantage of me. I don't feel that way at all about it. I'm trying to find a balance here and I'm really hoping that I can get some good points from all you wonderful ladies out there!

Thanks.


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## ComplexOphelia (Oct 5, 2009)

I think you're right on, Mama! Kids are independent entities and deserve as much respect and consideration as "we adults!"

I'm sorry to hear that you and DH are on different pages with this. My DH and I are also still ironing out what exactly we value in terms of respect versus compliance. If you and he have time to read, I found the books Connection Parenting by Pam Leo and Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn to be immeasurably helpful for DH and me. They talk about not "replaying tapes" of our parents, which we definitely recognized ourselves doing.

Something I especially love in Unconditional Parenting is his discussion of the qualities we admire in children not being the qualities we admire in adults, especially in regards to compliance! We value independence in adults, but want our children to be docile. We want our teens to stand up to peer pressure regarding sex and drugs, but we want our kids to listen to us "because we said so." This book really helped me realize that you can't have it both ways! It related so much to my personal experience - I was a very compliant child because my family would always withdraw their love and sometimes hit me if I wasn't compliant. Unsurprisingly, during my adolescence all hell broke loose







. I didn't respect my parents at all, I certainly didn't respect myself, and my choices regarding sex and drugs reflected that.

Now, do I wish you could have it both ways sometimes? ABSOLUTELY! I'm sure my life would be much easier if I had a child who came running at my beck and call, who did everything he was told immediately, and who never questioned my authority. I'm also sure that parenting wouldn't be helping me grow as a person, though, if I were raising a compliant child. Thinking about whether my requests are respectful, whether my motivation is actually selfish, whether my tone is kind, has done wonders for how I relate to not only my son but the world in general.

I hope any of this helped!

ETA: Kohn in UP also talks about our view of kids. Typically, people will view kids as entities who will "take advantage" and basically prescribe the worst possible motivations to them - greed, selfishness, etc. Kohn talks about changing this, and recognizing our children as inherently good rather than inherently evil, which I really like a lot. There's a great thread on Unconditional Parenting here on this board that you could check out, but it wasn't until reading the book that I really felt like I understood it.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

IMO, children should *not* be taught "obedience" as a virtue. They need to learn trust and respect, for themselves and others. Children who trust their parents to keep them safe generally understand that "mommy yells "no" when I run too close to the street because she wants to keep me safe." Children who are respected will in turn learn how to be respectful- and keeping the family waiting when it's time for dinner is disrespectful.

There's a big difference in the kind of response required for different kinds of things. When it's time for dinner, it's fine to wait 2 or 3 minutes while he finished up his game. Respecting the child would be to give him 10 and then 5 minute warnings that dinner is almost ready, so he has time to finish up in time to join you.

With safety issues, you need a much more immediate response. But if you're yelling "no" all the time, they tend to tune you out. They won't learn the difference between "don't play in the street" and "don't put your shoes on the sofa" if you use the same tone of voice for both rules. If you hardly ever yell, they'll really listen if an actual emergency comes up!

So, most people on MDC share your basic philosophy towards discipline. However, your husband's idea of "children should be made to mind adults" is also very pervasive in some areas. It could be the only childrearing philosophy he's familiar with at all. It's hard to raise children when you and your partner don't agree on basic principals. It's incredibly confusing to a child if the rules suddenly change whenever Daddy comes home.

In the specific area of the dinner table, I'm sure a compromise can be reached. Give DS lots of warning, remind him that Daddy really HATES to wait for dinner when he's hungry and it's important to both of you to have a family meal. You can ask DH to be more gentle in his requests that DS join you (or take over the reminders yourself.) But there are much deeper issues here, and this will keep on coming up if you and DH can't agree.


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## Thalia the Muse (Jun 22, 2006)

I do feel that if I tell my daughter she must do something, then she has to do it. Yes, every time. Otherwise, it's confusing -- do I really mean it, or is it optional? what happens when you've got something that he really, truly does need to do, and he decides that this time he doesn't feel like complying, because when you tell him to do something, half the time you don't really mean it and will happily let him ignore you?

BUT I try to keep the number of "you must do this" situations to a minimum. If it's something where I'd like her to do it but it's optional, I make that clear up front. I do my battle-picking before I ask her, not after.

For dinner, I agree that a ten-minute warning is a good idea. But you and your husband need to work out parenting differences with mutual respect in privacy, not challenging each other in front of your son. I sometimes think someone needs to write a book about Unconditional Spousing!


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## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama_2_Boy* 
Like DS might be playing with something and I'm calling him to sit for supper and he won't come. He'll acknowledge "coming" and doesn't move right away

My husband will be 49 in a few months and he does this exact same thing! I can assure your husband he is a law-abiding citizen who can hold down a good job and treat other people respectfully. He just needs a few minutes to finish his task, email, article he's reading, or whatever he is doing; it seems respectful to allow him this.

Warnings are good, but a few minutes leeway shows the respect goes both ways. What's a game to us is very important work for a child and I wouldn't expect him to drop it instantly any more than I would expect my husband to drop whatever he's doing without time to bring it to a close. Is DS eventually coming, like within a few minutes? If not, that is disrespectful to the rest of the family and at five he should be able to get that. But if it is just a couple of minutes to finish up, maybe you could call him to dinner earlier than he really needs to be there.


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## Thisbirdwillfly (May 10, 2009)

It's completely developmentally appropriate for a four or five year old to take a few minutes to switch gears.

My son is in his late teens and he is still like this. And you know what? It's turned out to be one of his greatest skills. His ability to focus on the task at hand has served him very well. I would have hated to have "trained" that out of him.

I'll take a few minute delay between asking and action in exchange for the ability to get really absorbed in thought.

For safety reasons, and frankly because we cannot always wait, we added on the word "now" as a signal that this requires quick action. As in, "Stop now!" means to freeze.


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## kayabrink (Apr 19, 2005)

My husband and ds both get a 5 minute warning before dinner, and when I then call them to dinner ds is the only one to come immediately. It's bizarre, because as a rule ds is non compliant but in a nice way- I'll tell him to do something, and he'll do something slightly different because he thinks it might be easier, more helpful, whatever (and there is always a reason. With a structured, logical, well organized argument to defend his point of view. I think we need to save up for law school).
I really struggle with this because I DO want ds to do what I say, and right away- if only to make my life easier. However, I don't want him to just do whatever everyone (peers, other adults, strangers...) else tells him to do, iykwim. I try to remind myself I'm glad he's questioning the reasoning behind demands made on him. I used to tell him why I was asking him to do something. Now if an argument springs up, I get HIM to tell me why he THINKS I want/need him to act a certain way. That way, he's arguing with himself instead of me.
I also still need to get up a lot, like one typically would with a toddler. If I'm very close, touch him gently on the shoulder before speaking, make sure I have his attention, it makes it easier for him to follow through right away.
We went through a period where we were reprimanding ds every time he didn't listen/comply. For my ds, things just got worse, but ymmv, mine is very argumentative in a nice way ( it's meaningful dialogue to him)


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## Mama_2_Boy (Jun 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onemomentatatime* 
My husband will be 49 in a few months and he does this exact same thing! I can assure your husband he is a law-abiding citizen who can hold down a good job and treat other people respectfully. He just needs a few minutes to finish his task, email, article he's reading, or whatever he is doing; it seems respectful to allow him this.

Warnings are good, but a few minutes leeway shows the respect goes both ways. What's a game to us is very important work for a child and I wouldn't expect him to drop it instantly any more than I would expect my husband to drop whatever he's doing without time to bring it to a close. Is DS eventually coming, like within a few minutes? If not, that is disrespectful to the rest of the family and at five he should be able to get that. But if it is just a couple of minutes to finish up, maybe you could call him to dinner earlier than he really needs to be there.

It's interesting that you mention this because come to think of it - many times when I have requested something from my husband and he is going something else - you think he drops everything and comes running to me??? Hell no! I've pointed this out to him, but his retort is that "DS is a child and he has to learn to come when he is called period". I have pointed out to DH that DS is a person too and we should be teaching him respect, but he continues to stick the fact that he is a child and needs a different set of rules then adults do








I don't know if I have a hope in hell of trying to get my meaning across to him and there is another one on the way very very soon which is no doubt going to bring with it all sorts of "listening" challenges.


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## Shera971 (Nov 26, 2008)

I can see where both you and your husband are coming from. In my opinion, if a child is asked to come to the dinner table, they come. I don't think its asking too much of a child to do this. However, you can set your son up for success with the great ideas posted here about giving warnings. Nobody wants to be interupted while doing something fun (like posting on the internet







) to go do something 'less' fun. I always give my son warnings when we are about to change activities like getting out of the bath, coming to the dinner table, getting ready for school etc etc. I also make sure that he is listening to me completely and not while still engaged with something else. I'll go to the same room as he is, get down on his level, look at him and will say "Ok DS, dinner is in five minutes, please wrap up with what you are doing".

I don't think it really has to do anything with "obeying". For me, it comes down to respect. I have asked you to do something, so please do it. I try to show the same courtesy to my son. If he asks me for something, like help getting a toy, unless I'm engaged in something like cleaning the toilet, I help him right away. He's asked me to do something, we're a family and we listen to each other.


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## Thisbirdwillfly (May 10, 2009)

Quote:

but he continues to stick the fact that he is a child and needs a different set of rules then adults do
He is absolutely correct. So why is he treating his child like a mini-grown up?

Have you shared with him that this is normal behavior? That reaction times vary widely when it comes to children and adults? That the rules for children are to allow for more time, not less?

Does you DH have issues with power and control in other areas of his life? In parenting? Or just on this issue?

Lastly, you are not undermining your DH's authority, you are protecting your DH from continuing to make the same mistake with his kid over and over and over again.


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## Shera971 (Nov 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thisbirdwillfly* 
Lastly, you are not undermining your DH's authority, you are protecting your DH from continuing to make the same mistake with his kid over and over and over again.

If she is stopping her DH's behaviour in front of her son, she _is_ undermining his authority. I believe that it is important that the parents need to discuss this WITHOUT the children present. Otherwise the child might come to believe that he does't have to listen to one parent, because the other parent will step in.

caveat - of course this doesn't apply to extreme situations like if the child is in physical danger


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Oh absolutely they should always obey adults -- especially ones they don't know who are offering them candy to get into the car and help them "find the lost puppy". Or the teacher who has a "special assignment" for them in an enclosed room alone. Or the slightly older friend who promises that the pill will make them feel good. Or even me when I say "we are leaving now" and they really need a bathroom first.

Seroiusly, I want my kids to stop and think before they blindly obey an adult. Any adult. Perhaps especially an adult with authority. And I figure they need to practice making decisions about obeying at home before they are faced with the really hard situations out in the world. Thus, I don't have a problem if it takes a minute for my kids to evaluate the situation. If they say "no" in the end, I expect them to be able to express that politely and have a reason, but I don't have a problem with them not instantly obeying.


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## Gentle~Mommy :) (Apr 21, 2009)

My husbands swears I let our boys get away with murder, he has very little patience with them not doing exactly what they are told and he has high expectations.

The truth is, I pick my battles and during the day when I am home with them we have very little conflict or problems. It all seems to start when Dad comes home, or on a weekend when he is home.

I don't have an answer for you, just wanted to let you know that I go through the same things and you are not alone.


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## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

I think what all of us parents hope for, really, is for our children to be _cooperative_ with us. Our children will tend to be more cooperative with us when we have a strong bond and attachment with them. So, if I want my children to be more tuned in to me, and "listen" to me more, and *want* to help me, then I need to be respectful to them, be considerate of them, spend quality time with them, and actively work to build a mutually trusting and loving relationship.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shera971* 
I don't think it really has to do anything with "obeying". For me, it comes down to respect. I have asked you to do something, so please do it. I try to show the same courtesy to my son. If he asks me for something, like help getting a toy, unless I'm engaged in something like cleaning the toilet, I help him right away. He's asked me to do something, we're a family and we listen to each other.

I LOVE this. When I was pregnant with my first child I told my husband that I never want my children to "obey" me. They're human beings, not robots. It is ALL about respect. Not just the respect they have for us, but the respect we have for them as well. In ALL the years experience I've had with kids, I've rarely had to ask for something twice. Even those who's mothers complained were difficult and didn't listen, I've never seemed to have a problem with. I FULLY believe that respect FOR EACH OTHER is the reason.

Thank you for posting this.


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## XyMama (Nov 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LionTigerBear* 
I think what all of us parents hope for, really, is for our children to be _cooperative_ with us. Our children will tend to be more cooperative with us when we have a strong bond and attachment with them. So, if I want my children to be more tuned in to me, and "listen" to me more, and *want* to help me, then I need to be respectful to them, be considerate of them, spend quality time with them, and actively work to build a mutually trusting and loving relationship.

Yes, yes, yes! Well put.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I do want ds to obey me when it matters. But I also want him to know that his desires matter too, and sometimes *I* don't have all the information.
For example, if I tell him to pick up a toy, it's perfectly fine for him to say that he's still planning on playing with it. Now that I have all the information, I can make an informed decision on the matter. This just seems like a logical and rational thing to do, imo.

I have a slightly different tone when it comes to things that are not negotiable, though (this is not common at all). In those cases, he complies with me immediately and THEN is welcome to give me his input, which I will consider. Usually, this would be when I'm telling him to come over to me. He comes to me right away, but then we can talk about what's going to happen next. (It's important to me that he come to me without arguing, because it's often when he's with DP and DP has a guitar student. I don't want any discussion between ds and me to disrupt the lesson).

In your case of calling ds to dinner, now that ds has said "coming" it gives you more information- it tells you that he's heard you, and that he has something important that he'd like to take a moment to get to a stopping point. I see nothing wrong with giving him that time.

So, no. I don't think they should just do as they are told all the time. Especially at 5yo (which my ds is), they (some of them, anyway) can make some rational decisions about what is important about your request. When I tell my ds to pick up a toy, he knows that it's important to me not to have unnecessary clutter all over. So it makes sense that he would tell me that he's still going to play with x item, but he'll pick up the rest. Or it would make sense for him to say that he wants to leave stuff out, but he'll move it to the corner (so it's not in my way). He's still addressing what's important about my request, he's just finding a solution that works well for both of us.

When you call your ds to dinner, and he says "coming" he is probably aware that you want him to come to dinner (which he will) but that you won't mind him taking a minute to finish what he was working on. It's a solution that works for both of you.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom* 
Or even me when I say "we are leaving now" and they really need a bathroom first.

Perfect example of not having all the information!!

Quote:

Thus, I don't have a problem if it takes a minute for my kids to evaluate the situation. If they say "no" in the end, I expect them to be able to express that politely and have a reason, but I don't have a problem with them not instantly obeying.
Yes, that's a good point. I wouldn't be happy at all if my ds just completely ignored me, or if he screamed that he wasn't going to do what I said, etc. I do expect him to respond politely and talk to me about it.
In almost all situations, I'm more than happy to work with him to find a solution. (actually, a lot of the time HIS ideas are better than mine!).
I do want him to trust me enough to know that if I'm insisting on him obeying immediately that I have a reason that might not be apparent to him. I'm sure that it helps that most of the time, I welcome his input.


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## buttercup784ever (Aug 22, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama_2_Boy* 
I might jump in and say "leave him alone already! You're just upset because you can't control him"

While I agree that we shouldn't have children expecting them to be our little slaves, you are setting a very bad precedent with this type of statement in front of your son. You may feel like you are jumping in to defend your ds, but it's not just undermining dh authority, it's undermining the relationship he has with his son. It may not be right, but I would expect a man who has child rearing philosophies like your dh to become quite resentful of you and your son, and he may become MORE authoritarian in response.

In your example of not coming to dinner, how would your dh have reacted if instead of you asking ds to come to dinner and allowing him to "disobey" (in dh's mind), you had told ds, "10 min to dinner" and then asked dh to help ds wrap up whatever activity he was doing? That way ds knows it's time to finish his project or game, and dh is involved in the process.

I understand that some momma's will say that you have every right to stand up for your child, and some will even say it's GOOD for your son to see that YOU will always defend him, even against his father, but I really think this will only serve to cause more problems later on.


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## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

I find it very unhelpful to think in terms of obedience or disobedience. If I say I want my child to 'obey', how can she or he then develop judgment and problem solving skills? But if I say it's OK if they disobey, then it sounds like I am condoning disrespect. So I try to avoid this dichotomy altogether.

Instead, I think in terms of 'what is really important here?' Once I can define that the techniques I want to use become clearer. If it is safety, then yes, I want my child to follow my instructions immediately, and will phrase what I say and how I position myself accordingly (My children are very young. If it is a safety issue I don't assume a verbal direction will suffice and am prepared to move them out of harm's way.) If it is getting a meal started on time, I will give enough notice so that DC can be at the table when needed.

Sometimes I think obedience is focused on because it is considered a sign of respect. Respect can be a tricky one because if it is demanded it isn't really respect, just fear of consequences (parental disapproval being the biggest consequence). It might appear OK in the short term, but once the fear of consequences diminishes, there's no underlying respect and boy do those teen years become tough! Respect is a natural human response, so allowing it to develop by modeling respectful behavior and showing respect for one another (as LionTigerBear so eloquently put it) is likely to be much more effective in the long run.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shera971* 
If she is stopping her DH's behaviour in front of her son, she _is_ undermining his authority. I believe that it is important that the parents need to discuss this WITHOUT the children present. Otherwise the child might come to believe that he does't have to listen to one parent, because the other parent will step in.

caveat - of course this doesn't apply to extreme situations like if the child is in physical danger

In the example given it sounds like the husband is undermining the OP. *She* called the son to dinner. Rather than respecting her way of interacting, the husband jumped in the "enforce" the OP request.

That's undermining.

Putting a kid to bed for not jumping up the second you call him is a complete overreaction. It sounds to me like the husband in this situation needs some help with anger.


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## mystic~mama (Apr 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gentle~Mommy * 
My husbands swears I let our boys get away with murder, he has very little patience with them not doing exactly what they are told and he has high expectations.

The truth is, I pick my battles and during the day when I am home with them we have very little conflict or problems. It all seems to start when Dad comes home, or on a weekend when he is home.

I don't have an answer for you, just wanted to let you know that I go through the same things and you are not alone.

This sounds just like us.

I am hearing something familiar often....men can tend to be this way and while i think it is naturally the fathers than are more discipline minded and mamas who are more nurturing...I also think that our society has A LOT to do with this and that a lot of men can be this way....I think something is triggered in them because maybe they were treated this way and why should a kid get away with what they didn't and there can be all kinds of reasons for it...

My DP is and DD is not his Bio child so it can be realllly difficult.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

No, I absolutely do not think children should do what they are told all the time. Shudder! Imagine how that can set them up to be abused? To think they have to comply with adults 100% of the time?

RE: Dinner. I'd suggest you tell DH (ahead of time) that you want to try things in a new way-- an experiment, and that while he may not support you, you hope that he'll let you try w/o interference. Think of what boundaries you want to set for dinner . . .in other words, what would really inconvenience you about DS coming late? Would cleaning up be a lot harder or ??? Then, set your boundaries regarding that. (And maybe there'd be no inconvenience.)

Invite your son to dinner. If he doesn't come, LET IT GO. Don't say anything. Enjoy your dinner! When you are going to start cleaning, ask him if he's going to eat, because now is the time (since you will be putting food away-- explain this). Maybe he isn't hungry and won't eat . . .maybe he'll join you then. Either way, he'll learn to eat when he's hungry, he won't see the table as a battleground, and you will have a peaceful meal.


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## provocativa (Jan 17, 2005)

Your husband is confusing authoritarian discipline with authoritative voice. I can't remember which parenting author speaks of this- I thought it was Jane Nelson but it really might be straight out of the Sears discipline book. The authoritarian parenting method (what we would call mean, obey me now) no longer works because kids don't see that extrapolate out in life (wives don't obey husbands, teachers don't cow to principals, etc.) It worked back when everyone feared dad. Now, you can establish an authoritative voice with your kids, especially when they witness you being a leader in other situations. My husband would rather it be like yours would. He is from Germany, and has awful parents, and that's how they were.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Kids simply don't do what they're told all of the time. "Should" is irrelevant. The question is, how do you want to handle it when they don't do what you'd like them to do?


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
Kids simply don't do what they're told all of the time. "Should" is irrelevant. The question is, how do you want to handle it when they don't do what you'd like them to do?

Good point. I read the book _Infidel_ (highly recommend this!) and in that culture, children are supposed to obey at all times, as are the women (at least according to the author). The children were very harshly punished (abused) and you know what? They STILL didn't comply all the time. They still acted like . . .children! So, it wasn't the culture (people say that, in the US, we are raising children to be disrespectful as a whole) and it wasn't the lack of physical force and verbal abuse.

I think that book would be perfect for anyone who thinks spanking/hitting is a valid tool. It would show them that it is ineffective, even when used in an extreme form.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

oh mama2boy this is when i really miss the village.

the village elder who tells your dh - hey give your child a break - its ok.

i dont know what to do. but standing up for your son is not helping either.

your dh is just not getting it. is there a 3rd person whom you guys could use as mediation and talk to whom your dh would listen to?

also please know children are v. resilient. and v. smart. they can figure things out. they see two different parenting styles and can say i will tolerate that.

i can totally feel your frustration. and i totally feel your dh's too. he is in teh camp that you have to be v. strict otherwise your kids are not going to learn. he is soooo caught up with that, that he cant see anything else. i can see how important that is for him. and it is all coming out from love. he doesnt want his son to 'fail'.

so i would try and have a discussion with dh. and figure out the why he is so insistent. you might find out something happened in his childhood that left a deep impact on him. if you talk to him from a place of empathy rather than blame he might be willing to talk.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

My daughter was taught to do as I say all the time.

But, I only say what I mean, and I mean what I say. If it's optional, I say it in a way that she can say "yes" or "no". If it's not optional, I don't end a request with "Okaaaay?". If I did say it that way, and was turned down, it's my own fault.

You also have to expect ANYBODY to get distracted, not hear, not process the request... whatever the reason. If it's not actual defiance, you just repeat it. We all need to have things repeated.

I would never say something like "Go up and make your bed now!" when she was watching tv, or talking on the phone. I'd say "After this show, I need you to run up and make your bed". Then, I had to remind her when the show was over. (or she'd blow me off)

I gave her the same respect I wanted from anybody else. I don't want to drop what I am doing just to do something someone else wants me to. (Unless they need me right at that moment of course)


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## Southy82 (Dec 10, 2009)

I must say that I am a father, and I definitely tend to demand a high level of obedience. I've read many reasons why it's good to allow more freedom in children. What I want to know is, why is it bad to demand a high level of obedience, but only towards parents? Obviously, I don't want my daughter succumbing to peer pressure or other nefarious influences.

My wife and I argue over this all the time. So much so, that I would cry, if I cried! I think that many of our daughter's misbehaving activities could be curbed with the following format:

Offense is committed
Warning is issued
If offense continues count to 3
If offense still continues carry out punishment
I argue that if this format was followed for offenses everytime, eventually our daughter would behave optimally. My wife argues that I need to choose my battles. To me, if my three year old daughter ignores a directive, this needs to be addressed or she will grow up to be disrespectful.

So, I would appreciate comments on why my method is incorrect. And what are the negative consequences of my method?


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## mkmb129 (Apr 7, 2007)

The negatives are that she's 3 (a toddler), and 3 year olds plain don't listen all the time. They're not made to, they're children who act on impulse with little control. They're still learning, and it's our job to teach them. I don't want to teach my child to be blindly obedient to all authority figures. I want to teach him WHY he needs to listen, to be respectful, and I want him to be able to make the decision on his own, and in order to do that I must show him. I see in my own three year old (I also give a warning, if it continues count to 3 BUT I also choose my battles-- I count "too slow" say some, but I feel it gives him the chance to stop and think, and make the decision on his own whether or not to stop) over the last couple of months that he's starting to gain some control over what he does! But I also know that he's still just a baby, and not an adult. *I* don't stop what I'm doing immediately, why on earth would I expect him to (reasonable situations now, not talking about where safety is an issue)? I recently read that children (toddlers at least) learn something like 90% of their behaviours from the parents. I've been having a very difficult time with my own 3 year old lately, and I know it's my fault, and not his. He's responding to me, who's responding to him inappropriately, and then he's picking up my not so gret behaviour and repeating it, then I get upset with him because of it. Um, not exactly fair. I've finally snapped out of that mode and the last two days have been so much better with minimal melt-downs & like 1 tantrum. Amazing! We can't behave one way and expect them to behave another way. I read quite a while ago an article on parenting toddlers and it said basically if you're telling your toddler to stop doing something, stop and think why. Why should they stop? Is it unsafe, or is it just annoying you? If it's just annoying you then it's your problem, not your toddlers, and you need to deal with it. My husband has a bad habit of telling our 3 year old in a negative tone to stop jumping around and being loud because he can't hear the TB, basically to stop being a 3 year old, and he is in the wrong, not our 3 year old. Before you decide to issue a warning, thinking about why you want her to stop. Is there another solution, like for my husband he could take the time to stop and think, and then suggest if ds wants to continue to jump around and be loud, could maybe he do it in the next room, or try to not be quite as loud? When asked, ds will pick one of these options, and then gets to continue to play rather then being barked at to stop.

I'm not sure if you read this entire thread, but I'd recommend it. Lots of good info.

To the OP, sorry to hijack. My husband is very much like yours, he thinks children should obey on command, every time. He gets angry and annoyed when our son doesn't and I am guilty of stepping in. I've made a conscious effort to stop, and my husband doesn't seem to notice or care, and when I talk to him quietly about the situation he insists still that he was right or ignores what I'm saying. There are times though, when he brings ds to tears that I say enough is enough, leave him alone (highly sensitive child who cries easily, possibly because he knows I will step in, so I do consider what the situation that's caused him to cry before I do-- if daddy is being mean to him because he wants to wear his boots that daddy thinks are ugly out of the house, I simply ask daddy if there's a good reason why he'd like ds to not wear them, and tell ds that if daddy has a good reason to tell him no about the boots then I support him). It's hard tough situation to be in. There are different rules when daddy is home vs when he's not. Ds cries more, because daddy is "meaner", and in an unnecessary "because I'm bigger then you" kind of way. My husband also says that I let him do whatever he wants, but that's because his perception is that children should always be obedient, and well, we've got a 3 & 1 year old and they're not supposed to be mini-adults!


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## lonegirl (Oct 31, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama_2_Boy* 
I might jump in and say "leave him alone already! You're just upset because you can't control him" This is a real sore spot with DH because he says I'm undermining his authority ..... which I probably am.


While I totally agree with you that you have to choose your battles and am in a similar situation with my hubby...the fact that you jump in and say something is undermining his authority. Your son will see that you don't agree with each other. This is a discussion to have at a separate time.


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## lonegirl (Oct 31, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius* 
*Invite your son to dinner.* If he doesn't come, LET IT GO. Don't say anything. Enjoy your dinner! When you are going to start cleaning, ask him if he's going to eat, because now is the time (since you will be putting food away-- explain this). Maybe he isn't hungry and won't eat . . .maybe he'll join you then. Either way, he'll learn to eat when he's hungry, he won't see the table as a battleground, and you will have a peaceful meal.

My concern with this is....it isn't an invitation. When dinner is made dinner is to be eaten. I give heads up that dinner will be reading in 30, 15, 10, 5 minutes (to both my son and hubby). Toys, games, work will wait and will be there still when dinner is done. IF we are eating at the table he is expected to be at the table...if he isn't very hungry then he eats only what he can finish (we aren't a clean your plate sort of family). Then he is to sit with us (for at least a few more minutes) then he can ask to be excused to go play. There are also times that he is expected to wait until everyone is done before leaving...patience is a good thing to learn


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## Encinalien (Mar 27, 2007)

I have to kind of agree with the guy that posted here that sometimes the mothers logic sound a little far fetched dramatic and untrue. Are you really going to tell me mist kids don't know the difference of who's their friends and family and where their loyalty lies?
And to say that strict parenting is the leading cause of wild teenagers is just wrong. I've seen pot headed parents raising pot headed kids (ditto drunks) and even preachers kids gone wild. I know grown ups who were raised by strict parents who scholarships and graduated from ivy league schools. You can't isolate one factor like that and hysterically assert it causes anything.

I have to whole-heartedly agree with LionsTigers&Bears that it's really and truly an issue of fostering cooperation.

I also think there's more than just a superficial truth to acknowleging "that's the way he was raised and he doesn't want to think about it. If that's the case than you're not really defending your son, you're putting your son in the middle to defend yourself. Your husband is disrespecting you, discounting your research and your beliefs and ideas. He's asking you to quit making your own informed decisions and raise your child the way his mother did, the way his friends wives are raising their children.

But you didn't marry your mother. You didn't marry your friends wives. You chose me. Don't you believe I'm smart and capable enough to make good parenting decisions in raising the child right?

I don't want to have this argument with dh. I'm not sure where the balance lies exactly. I know who I married. I know we're both working our way privately twords the perfect balance of family harmony. And we're doing it discretely so the house is not filled with mom and dad's arguements. So I do this work internally and I can see that he's doing the same thing. We both REally want this time togeather. A family. What a huge project to do with somebody.

Yes to whoever said someone needs to write a book on unconditional marraigeing (not in a kinky way). I've said that a couple of times here. How far does an ap mothers responsibility go? Some of the mothers who claim to be so kind, understanding, respectful, and tolerant of xhildren are downright hostile and abusive to other people. While some other people seem to have internalized the principles and made it part of their own personality and it applies to everyone in their lives and their children equally.

*not subbing this thread* but watching eagerly for more comments to bump it back to the homepage. I'm working diligently on this issue of balance between dh's needs, ds's well-being, and my own. I have a feeling once I cam see clearly and find the right perspective I won't have to constantly choose between what dh and ds need. How dh and I can raise this kid togeather without having to force each other to "see it my way".
Now which forum was this posted in so I can come back and check for more answers.

I would expect it in "parents as partners" but I was so dissappointed when I looked there. All I could find was man-bashing *vent* and sympathy threads.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Southy82* 
I must say that I am a father, and I definitely tend to demand a high level of obedience. I've read many reasons why it's good to allow more freedom in children. What I want to know is, why is it bad to demand a high level of obedience, but only towards parents? Obviously, I don't want my daughter succumbing to peer pressure or other nefarious influences.

My wife and I argue over this all the time. So much so, that I would cry, if I cried! I think that many of our daughter's misbehaving activities could be curbed with the following format:

Offense is committed
Warning is issued
If offense continues count to 3
If offense still continues carry out punishment
I argue that if this format was followed for offenses everytime, eventually our daughter would behave optimally. My wife argues that I need to choose my battles. To me, if my three year old daughter ignores a directive, this needs to be addressed or she will grow up to be disrespectful.

So, I would appreciate comments on why my method is incorrect. And what are the negative consequences of my method?

Welcome to Mothering! If you are looking for alternatives to punitive parenting, this is a great place to look around in the threads.


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## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Southy82* 


Offense is committed
Warning is issued
If offense continues count to 3
If offense still continues carry out punishment
I argue that if this format was followed for offenses everytime, eventually our daughter would behave optimally. My wife argues that I need to choose my battles. To me, if my three year old daughter ignores a directive, this needs to be addressed or she will grow up to be disrespectful.

So, I would appreciate comments on why my method is incorrect. And what are the negative consequences of my method?

Well, I don't know your daughter, so I cannot say the method you described is incorrect, but I can point out some potential downsides. For simplicity, and given your membership in this forum, I'm assuming you what you are asking is perfectly reasonable and necessary for health, safety, or family harmony, and are talking time-out type punishment or other humane consequence.

1. If what you are asking her to do isn't within her developmental repertoire, (I.e., she doesn't have the maturity or impulse control), you'll spend a lot of time warning, counting, and punishing. This can set up an adverse relationship that can make it hard to elicit cooperation later. Is that how you want your time with your daughter to be? Also, eventually she'll outgrow the fear of punishment and then what? I used to teach middle schoolers, and it was those whose only discipline was warning then punishment that were the hardest to manage in class. At a certain age kids just stop caring if they are sent into time out or lose a privilege, and they can become very sneaky about not getting caught.

2. It doesn't show her HOW to do what you want her to do. For example, you ask her to turn off the TV, but she's hooked into the show. What she really needs to learn is how to disengage from the hypnotizing images and engage with what you want her to do. People aren't born with that skill, it needs to be taught. Giving her that skill will help her with transitions at other times. Warning, then consequence might get her away from the TV, but she won't have learned a transferrable skill.

3. She may not learn certain values that can help her make decisions later, if that isn't what is emphasized in the conversation. She'll learn that she should do what a parent says to avoid punishment, rather than to be safe nor to be helpful to other people, for example. The book Unconditional Parenting describes how getting kids to behave by punishments teaches them to be self interested; they learn to do certain things because it benefits them, rather than learning to think through everyone's needs in a situation.

*
To me, if my three year old daughter ignores a directive, this needs to be addressed or she will grow up to be disrespectful.*

I agree with this. But there are other techniques than what you have described. You might want to check the Playful Parenting anecdotes thread for ideas. The child still gets the connection between 'parent told me to do something' and 'it happened,' so they learn that parental directives are important to listen to, but the way in which 'it happened' is more in line with their developmental level, builds a positive relationship that can lead children to more readily cooperate over the long term, and are a way more pleasant way for parents and children to interact. It helps everyone when parenting is fun for the parent, too.


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## Encinalien (Mar 27, 2007)

Btw my dad, who didn't raise me, was the first person I ever saw who used logic instead of violence in disciplining his kids (the two he raised). It's not just a guy/girl thing. I just generalized because here it's mostly frusterated mothers wanting help dealing with more old-fashioned minded dh's.


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## Encinalien (Mar 27, 2007)

Quote:
"2. It doesn't show her HOW to do what you want her to do. For example, you ask her to turn off the TV, but she's hooked into the show. What she really needs to learn is how to disengage from the hypnotizing images and engage with what you want her to do. People aren't born with that skill, it needs to be taught. Giving her that skill will help her with transitions at other times. Warning, then consequence might get her away from the TV, but she won't have learned a transferrable skill."

Teach them what you want them to do without wasting all that time focusing on your big list of "no's"....

That's my very favorite part of the gentle discipline theory.
I've always said "no" was a nasty word.


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## NicaG (Jun 16, 2006)

I would recommend the book Kid Cooperation by Elizabeth Pantley (you may know her from her No-Cry Solution books). Anyway, that book is very straightforward and practical. The most important things I learned from that book:
-pick your battles
-once you commit to a battle, you must follow through, and you must present clear consequences for non-compliance (so keep that in mind when you pick a battle--do you have the time and energy to follow through right then?)
-one of the best ways to foster cooperation is by being playful with your kids

In the OP's situation, I think insisting on a five-year-old coming to sit at the dinner table immediately, with harsh consequences for non-compliance, is not a battle I would pick. Does it really matter if the child joins you later at the table? (personally, I sort of like a few minutes to talk to my dh at the table uninterrupted) Could you set a timer ten minutes before dinner as a warning, and then tell ds to join you when the buzzer rings? Could dh playfully "round up" ds by pretending to be a hungry monster or something?

Here's that book:http://www.amazon.com/Kid-Cooperatio...0464652&sr=8-1

I really highly recommend this book. It gives a checklist of the main points at the end of each chapter, and I found it very helpful to share these points with my dh--we both really appreciated how clear and concise and well-written this book was.


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## sgmom (Mar 5, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Southy82* 
My wife and I argue over this all the time. So much so, that I would cry, if I cried! I think that many of our daughter's misbehaving activities could be curbed with the following format:

Offense is committed
Warning is issued
If offense continues count to 3
If offense still continues carry out punishment

I am currently reading the book "The Science of Parenting". It's not so much about parenting than it is about how we parent affects their growth. Brain development, hormones, ability to handle stress later in life, things like that. You might enjoy it. Even my husband is into it (he's NOT into books).

One of the chapters deals with tantrums. Why they're important, how to handle them (at different ages), and the difference between distress tantrums (I'm in emotional pain) and little nero (give me that NOW) tantrums.

At 3 years old, your daughter is very capable of knowing how far she can push and what she can get away with, but when tantrums happens, she's likely to still feel emotional distress, even if the cause of the tantrum appears to be Nero (I want that cookie!).

Setting boundaries (and being there for her emotionally) will send her the message that she can't get away with everything, but punishment will make the situation worse.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Another good book on this topic is "Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline" (and if I'm going to keep recommending it, I really should look up the author's name







it is in the sticky at the top of the forum).

Specifically, she talks about looking at the child's intentions and not assuming they're bad.

For instance, if a 3 yo keeps watching TV after being asked to stop she could be
deliberately ignoring the parent (bad intent)
interested in what will happen next on the TV (good intent)

With the first option, you have to address the disrespect issue and you focus on how disrespectful she is.
With the second option, you just have to handle how interesting the TV is, which is a lot easier and a lot less angry-making.

Is the grabbing child selfish or worried that he won't be able to play with the toy?
Does the hitting child want to hurts someone or does he not know how to ask for what he needs?

It also talks about good ways to get a child's attention. It doesn't mention it, but a recent study did find that until age 7 or so a child literally cannot hear you as well as an adult in a noisy room. Their auditory processing ability is undeveloped so that if there's background noise you won't come through clearly.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

Should children just do as they are told ALL THE TIME?
My short answer is "no." The longer version though, is that if we ask our children to so something that isn't unreasonable and they can't give me a good reason why they can't do it when I'm asking, they have to do it. But they're welcome to try to talk me out of it.


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