# Does this happen at your library? Would you be okay with it?



## KristaDJ (May 30, 2009)

My husband and I took our children (7, 3, and 1) to the library for the first time a few days ago. When we first walked into the children's section (it's own room off the rest of the library) I noticed that there were computers along the wall with teenagers surfing the web, seemed a little weird but I didn't think much of it and passed right by. We played for a while and read some books in the back and then my kids went over to the couch directly across from computers to play with some toys and read the other books. We had been there for a minute reading when I looked up and saw that one of the teens was watching a Marilyn Manson video on youtube that seemed to be mostly tight shots of women's butts in thongs and fishnets. It also seemed to include people licking and rubbing each other. It was quite shocking to me to see this playing right over my children's heads (thank goodness they were facing me and not the computers!) and right at their eye level. I got up and took my kids back to the area we were in before and my husband went and talked to the librarian. She said it's a public library and they can really only restrict so much







. We grabbed our books and went out to the main desk to check out. We told the librarian out there about it and she was pretty disgusted and agreed that the computers in the kids area should not be open to that sort of thing. She said she would talk to the branch manager, gave me her number and we've been playing phone tag ever since. I won't go back there as long as the set up remains the same, we don't watch tv specifically because of that type of thing and I won't allow my kids to be exposed to it, but I am curious about what other parents think about this. No one else seemed to notice or care, or seemed to have complained before...... so is this just expected at the library???


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## amandaleigh37 (Jul 13, 2006)

I would not be ok with that either. Surely there are other computers in the library that teenagers can use for that sort of thing. There are often older kids / teens on the computers in our children's section, but they're usually playing games. I think I'd probably react the same way you did.


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## Kuba'sMama (Oct 8, 2004)

I personally wouldn't be ok with it either but quite honestly I am surprised. We're at our library often and there is a bold "code of conduct" type thing posted regarding computer use, and any "questionable" material is not permitted. Basically, the computers are for research, kids' games and those sort of things. Their screens are also all facing the librarians' desks.


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## KristaDJ (May 30, 2009)

These were facing the librarians desk as well, but were maybe 15 feet down from it. When my husband told her she said she would "take a walk and see what's up" then she proceeded to wait until the girl was done watching the video to get up and look







. I was totally shocked as well, I just couldn't even speak....... I understand that it's a public place and they are public computers but.... in the kids section?? I know it was just stuff that is shown on TV but still, it was not appropriate for the kids section IMO and youtube has WAY worse stuff so at what point is the line drawn?


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## 34me (Oct 2, 2006)

We have 3 branches in our city of 100,000. All of them have the computers restricted in the kids sectin to kids programming and games. The adult use ones are tucked away in the reference area of the adult section.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

Where I livethe kids computers don'teven have internet access...just preloaded games, nickjr programs and stuff likethat. I don't believe in censorship in general but I would expect that unmonitored interne access would be somewhere that my toddler doesn't have to wtch it. Those kids should have been using theadult computers.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

No, that would not happen in our library. We have a very large children's room and an attached little room with 4 computers for children, and they do not access the internet at all. They have very tame and simple computer games for preschoolers and young elementary children only.

I think you should send a formal letter of complaint to both the main library, the branch you were at and any and all higher ups that you can find. Complaints in writing are noticed.


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Wouldn't bother me, but then I've seen much worse at the highschool where I taught. I think our job as parents is to explain to our kids that some things are not ok; to share our values. Not to shield them completely.

But then I abhor censorship.

Plus I like the fact that the teens feel comfortable enough to hang out in the kids section where there is more supervision overall. If they were in the adult section they would probably be looking at porn...which wouldn't be your problem but would be a problem overall.


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## Tjej (Jan 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl* 
If they were in the adult section they would probably be looking at porn...

We all have our own take on things, but what was described sounds like soft porn to me.

I have a friend who studied library science. I remember her talking about how hard it was with the library needing to be a resource for people and not censor, and her trying to uphold her morals. She hated the fact that if a kid wanted to check out porn magazines, she'd have to check them out to them.

I agree that what you saw was inappropriate. I would take my kids elsewhere too. From what my friend said a few years ago when in school I'd almost think their hands are tied about this, but maybe not. Perhaps they would be able to regulate the kids section access.

Tjej


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## zebra15 (Oct 2, 2009)

I would not have a problem with it. Honestly DS is clueless as to what is on other peoples computer screens at the library. I fight and advocate for the library and our library hours. (i just had a thread in TOA about this) and I love that our library has kids computers with internet access. Quite honestly you can not control what others do, you can only control what you and your kids do. I hate censorship.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Our library has preteen/teen/youngadult books and materials in a separate room from the picture books and such. So pretty much only children under 11 or 12 yo are in the main children's section. The teen books are right next to the main children's section but clearly separate. The older kids can enjoy their graffic novels and such with out little kids bouncing up and down around them, and the little kids are free to pull anything off the shelf without too much worry about it being appropriate.


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## mom23kidsinutah (Apr 9, 2010)

It wouldn't bother me.
The computers in our kids section of the library have only the preloaded kid games, like Magic School Bus and that sort .. no internet access.


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

Our library actually has computers with signs marked "Children" and "Teen"

I guess I have never noticed if the 'adult' computers are actually marked 'adult.'

I am fairly sure I can't use my son's (5 YO) library card number on an 'adult' computer.

The kids' computers have internet access, but I have no idea how limited it is. (I would think the computers are labeled in part because of restrictions, I know another reason is the kids' computers are only available for half-hour slots after school.)

I don't know if "teen" computers would have some restrictions that "adult" don't have?

I also think part of the reason it's divided up the way it is, labeled, time-usage restrictions and all, is to guarantee that all ages *can* have access--I.E. there are computers available for adults to use between the hours of 3 and 6 PM...

and absolutely 100% I WOULD complain about my children being able to see that in a children's toy room at the library!


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Our library has clear sections for kids' computers -- they have only kids' games and stories loaded on them. No surfing allowed.

Teens/adults can use another area.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

I work in a library and actually work directly with the director, so this has been a discussion we've had before. I won grant money last year to put in a whole teen section with 10 computers.

One of the problems with censorship is that it's subjective. What is offensive to you, may not be offensive to someone else. Unless there is nudity involved, I don't think a library can legally censor it.

It would be the same if a white supremacist came in to work on his neo-nazi website... offensive for most, but not illegal. I wouldn't want my dd seeing anything on that screen, but it's my job to keep her away from that, not the library's. The same goes for violent online gaming. It has to be allowed, but I certainly don't want my dd seeing people getting their heads chopped off.

So to answer your question, NO, I wouldn't be OK with my dd observing that, but since it's a public place, barring actual pornography (with nudity), I'm not OK with censorship, either. Yes, there need to be some rules, but it's a slippery slope.

I think your only recourse would be to ask that the furniture arranged so the screens be turned toward walls and not facing out to the public. That being said, then the librarians would probably hear from the parents of teens because with the monitors toward the walls, there will be zero supervision and they will be able to hide TRUE pornography or inappropriate surfing because there is no way for the staff to monitor the screens. See, there's no good way to make everyone happy. FTR - we have web filters and do not allow pornography by blocking. Pretty much everything else is fair game.

Oh, and at the library where I work, we also have the AWE computers that have just children's programs on them. Those are on the CHILDREN'S side of the department and the computers for the teens (which children and adults are welcome to use, though) is in the Young Adult section. You also can't legally segregate in public libraries.

If computers are for public use, they have to be open for anybody, in any area. They can "call" an area "Adult Computer Area" and "Teen Computer Area", but they can't tell a teen they can't work on a computer in the Adult area. It's a compliance issue for public libraries. They have to have some minimum internet safety policies in place on ALL the computers. This is called CIPA certification (you can google for it). Look up E-Rate Certification, too. This the the whole "non discrimination" policy that public libraries have to follow in order to get your tax dollars. HTH!


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## JollyGG (Oct 1, 2008)

My mother was on the library board when I was in high school or college and this sort of thing is a huge PITA to the school board. If they put filter software on the computers you have parents coming in raising a huge stink about censorship. Plus the filter software doesn't catch everything and sometimes it catches too much. What if a student has a report to do for school about STDs and the filter doesn't allow access to any content containing the word sex or sexual.

There is no perfect filter software, libraries and library boards are usually very very sensitive about censorship and usually rather anti censorship.

I think when my mom was there they decided to put filters on the computers in the children's section and turn the computers so the screen was in view of the whole room. This of course caused issues they had to resolve because the library had strict rules stating that kids under a certain age were never allowed to use the computers in the adult section (so kids needing to do research papers sometimes couldn't do it). So they decided to occasionally allowing kids on the computers in the adult section for a specific, justifiable reason. They then had issues with different librarians enforcing it differently, some kids plain lying about what they needed the computer for, and a lot of general complaining "Well, why does he get to use the computers in the adult section?"

I think they finally resolved it by designating three computer stations. The children's section had computers that had filters, the adolescent section had computers with minimal filters but the computers were where the librarian could easily see the screens, and the adult section was restricted to only adults with minimal filters and computers orientated for privacy. But there was significant cost involved in the purchase of the new computers and in the remodeling to make room for the new area.

So basically, the most common solution in libraries is to turn the computers so the monitor is visible to the whole room. That really eliminates 90% of the inappropriate content viewing on those computers from kids self censoring. It also allows the librarian to see and monitor what is being done on the computers to a certain extent. Then all kids under a certain age are only allowed on those computers in full view of the room.


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## JayGee (Oct 5, 2002)

At our library, the screens are set down into the desktops so only the person using the computer can see what is on it. It seems that rather than censoring content, having screens that are visible only to the user might be a better solution.


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Our library has different areas for computers. The ones near the kids' section are just for games, I believe. But you also have to walk past some of the adult/teen computers to get to the kid section. I've noticed people watching videos on youtube, but haven't really paid attention to what was on.

I do think they'd discourage that at our library, but I don't even know the rules as we don't use the computers there.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

This would bother me, I don't want my 4 year old seeing a Marilyn Manson video like you described.

I don't think it needs to be a censorship issue, though... just better arrangement of the computers.

There are no computers or screens at all in our two children's library rooms. There must be computers in the library but I guess they are downstairs somewhere. Honestly I'd want privacy at my computer - not because I'd be looking at sexual content but I don't like the whole world looking at what I'm reading or typing, even if it's just a letter to my mom. Lord knows I'd offend plenty of people just by surfing MDC in public (hot topiics like breastfeeding, circumcision, etc.).

I think everyone can be satisfied by a better setup, and that's what I'd push for. Even if they can't move the computers to a dedicated room or section, if they are pushed against the wall and facing out into the room, they can reverse it so the monitors face the wall and there is a bit of a space between the tables and the wall for people to sit. Better privacy for the computer users, and no risk of shocking or disturbing anyone trying to have a wholesome experience at the library.

You can say "well, if you don't like it, then leave" but video is so sudden and intrusive that you can be disturbed with no warning. You could glance up and see someone working on a word document, fine. And then a minute later someone walks in the room, you glance up, and out of the corner of your eye you see porn or a violent image on the monitor now. That will be burned into your mind, and certainly your kid's, through no fault of your own. And it's stressful to always have to be on guard like that. You should be able to go to your public library and feel safe. Not by censorship but just reasonable arrangements. If the library has porn magazines, fine, they aren't intrusive because you'll have to actually go over and look at them. (Assuming they don't display the covers on table as you walk in of course!!). You won't look at them unless you want to. Videos should be the same way, not displayed for everyone to see, but in a way where you'd decide "I want to use a computer" and go there.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

The computers in the kids section have strong filters and are for kids only (adults are not allowed to use them). both kids and adults are allowed to use other computers in the library at any time. However you are limited to 20 minutes a day per library card (so if you can round up your kids cards you can log in on their account) and at the Main branch you have to sign up early in the day for a spot usually. Even in the kids section I remember we would get their an hour early to sign up for a 15 minute slot of computer time. it is hard to get into too much trouble in 15-20 minutes....

also the computers at our library face a wall and have deviders in between them. volume has to stay down so the person next to you or the librarian cannot hear it. So regardless of what people might be pulling up on the computer I wouldn't really mind. it would be hard for my child to be exposed to it for more than a quick second. There are lots and lots of things in the library I do not want my kids to be exposed to. random computer images are really low on the list of things I sheild my kids from in the library.


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## St. Margaret (May 19, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JayGee* 
At our library, the screens are set down into the desktops so only the person using the computer can see what is on it. It seems that rather than censoring content, having screens that are visible only to the user might be a better solution.

I agree. At our library, the computers are all in the middle of the library, so you just have to deal because people could see, and I do have to walk my kid past, but hey, it's not displayed right to the kids trying to read in the kids' section!

I'm all for not censoring at the library. Libraries are some of the only institutions that stood up to the patriot act garbage about reporting books read by individuals.... but at the same time, kids deserve to have a safe, age-appropriate space in the library.


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## listipton (Jun 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zebra15* 
I would not have a problem with it. Honestly DS is clueless as to what is on other peoples computer screens at the library. I fight and advocate for the library and our library hours. (i just had a thread in TOA about this) and I love that our library has kids computers with internet access. Quite honestly you can not control what others do, you can only control what you and your kids do. I hate censorship.

This. It is also *illegal* to censor someone based on age, even minors. It is a constant struggle in the library world. We also have the issue of the Children's Internet Protection Act. Under this act, our library DOES have to provide some sort of internet filtering because we use federal funding to help pay for our internet access. That being said, we also have a password that overrides the filter if a patron really wants to look at anything. I have yet to have a patron actually ask me to override the filter to look at porn.

The op's situation would not have happened in our library because the children's computers are not hooked up to the internet, although someday I would very much like to do so. There are a great number of resources for children on the Web that would be wonderful for them to have access to. Is it possible that the teens that were on the computers in the children's area not supposed to be on them?


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

velochic is correct in the information provided.
library computers and access to the internet ARE filtered. Libraries can choose to have unfiltered access computers in a specially designated "adult" area, or they can unfilter general use computers upon request if all age groups have access to them. computers in children's and teen areas ARE filtered. Do as velochic suggested and read more about CIPA. (Children's internet protection act)
In some libraries, depending on the setup, adults vs. children and teens internet acess computers are filtered differently (according to whether the library receives e rate funding covered under CIPA, and almost all of them do, minors have to have restricted/filtered access only).
sounds to me like the problem is in the physical set up of the library. if you complain enough, it will probably get results. libraries can move computers around or purchase carrels (or like someone else posted, those desks that the monitors are set into allowing only one user to view them). those aren't extremely expensive in the grand scheme of things and it's worth suggesting these measures when you complain.
likely staff are already aware of this problem, and you are more than likely not the first person to complain about it. sometimes it takes input from patrons to get something changed as budgets are crazy tight in the library world these days- closures and layoffs loom large. it's probably something they've been wanting to change, anyway, i'd be willing to bet.
many libraries have a separate teen area, especially as the reading material for children and teens is so dramatically different. plus, teens in a library setting tend to behave a little differently than the smaller ones- plus the programming is different. even in the very small rural branch near my house, there is a separate area for teens & children.
if you want to change this, some advice: do as pp's suggested, write a formal letter to the director and the regional director if there is one.
find out if there is a "friends of the library" group. if so, show up at a meeting, join if you like, but bring up the suggestion of making the computers more private. Often the friends group will raise money for things like that. Find a librarian who seems approachable and chat about it- he or she may tell you that something like what needs to happen with those is in the works, or indicate to you what else you can do to get that situation changed. Most librarians want you to be happy and satisfied with your library experience!!!!!
(sorry for the novel)
also- librarians are not in the business of policing what patrons are viewing. Turning computers so that librarians can monitor them seems very contrary to what most librarians/libraries believe and support. It is very unlikely that a librarian will supervise what anyone is viewing. We're not generally supportive of that kind of censorship- that's why most of the time we rely on discreet positioning of monitors, etc.


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## starlein26 (Apr 28, 2004)

It wouldn't bother me, it's a part of living in this kind of society. If my children were to ask me something about what they are seeing, I'd welcome the opportunity to discuss the music industry/entertainment industry and how profit driven they are...or even that different people enjoy looking at different things. I am TOTALLY against censorship, so frankly, if you are uncomfortable, I feel it is your job to remove yourself/your children from the situation.


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## KristaDJ (May 30, 2009)

Who's talking censorship? Is it outrageous to ask that teens and adults use computers that are not in the children's area? I don't care what those people look at away from my kids but why is it right where the kids can see? Would it inconvenience them to have the computers turned around or moved? I'd hate to see filters on the computers, what if I wanted to show my kids a birth video?


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristaDJ* 
Who's talking censorship? Is it outrageous to ask that teens and adults use computers that are not in the children's area? I don't care what those people look at away from my kids but why is it right where the kids can see? Would it inconvenience them to have the computers turned around or moved? I'd hate to see filters on the computers, what if I wanted to show my kids a birth video?

Yes, it might HIGHLY inconvenience them to move the computers. That can cost a lot of money and public libraries are totally strapped for cash.

The computers are for public use. And let's be honest, anyone can go anywhere in a library. An older child might bring younger sibling along to the library and use the teen area. Mom might want to check her email in the adult area and not want to leave her 4 year old by herself in the children's department.

There is simply no way to avoid everything that might be offensive to your eyes in a library.

Yes, it's outrageous to ask that teens and adults not use computers that are for public use that are in the children's department. Public computers, public use. If you want them moved, talk to the director. Be prepared for him/her to explain to you how much of the budget that would take and see if you're willing to raise the funds to have the computers moved, though.


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## sewingmommy (Apr 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
Yes, it might HIGHLY inconvenience them to move the computers. That can cost a lot of money and public libraries are totally strapped for cash.

The computers are for public use. And let's be honest, anyone can go anywhere in a library. An older child might bring younger sibling along to the library and use the teen area. Mom might want to check her email in the adult area and not want to leave her 4 year old by herself in the children's department.

There is simply no way to avoid everything that might be offensive to your eyes in a library.

Yes, it's outrageous to ask that teens and adults not use computers that are for public use that are in the children's department. Public computers, public use. If you want them moved, talk to the director. Be prepared for him/her to explain to you how much of the budget that would take and see if you're willing to raise the funds to have the computers moved, though.


I agree with this ...if you were in the adult section with your kids looking for a book for yourself and saw this would you demand they move it


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## zebra15 (Oct 2, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristaDJ* 
Who's talking censorship? Is it outrageous to ask that teens and adults use computers that are not in the children's area? I don't care what those people look at away from my kids but why is it right where the kids can see? Would it inconvenience them to have the computers turned around or moved? I'd hate to see filters on the computers, what if I wanted to show my kids a birth video?

What if the tables were turned and a mainstream parent complained about seeing a birth video that you were showing your kids at the library?

For all we know the girl was gathering information for a music class about different genre's or how music videos have changed over the past 20 years. IDK what the girl was doing, there is no way to know what she was doing, nor does it matter.

Velochic is correct about funding and while the library can 'say' an area is Kids, teen, adult etc they need to allow all ages access to all areas. So if my 9 yr old wants to work in the adult area he can or if I want to work on the kids computers next to him I can do that as well.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Our libraries separate the kids and teenager areas and have computers for each age group in those areas. I don't know if they police the material there and I really don't care because I think it is our job as parents to censor material. Our library does have separate areas for adults and kids and they limit the computers in the kid area to 18 and younger.

My dd has seen some things that I don't view as appropriate and we talk about them. Now that she can read she reads a lot of things that I would rather she didn't read when we are in line to get groceries or browsing movies at the Red Box. If you go out in society you are just bound to see things that don't fit well into your family. I find that discussing them with my dd, my point of view and hers, then moving on works very well. These things really don't have much of an effect on her life. If your library can set up a teenage area for computers then hopefully they will do that. It doesn't sound like you guys are really that in to the library anyways if that was your first visit so it shouldn't affect your life that much if it is your only one.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

in addition to the tome i posted previously, i have to say:
i am a librarian, and i personally think that there's something wrong with a setup where teens can view videos that parents don't want little kids to see where little kids can see them. public spaces ARE public spaces, but no one should have to view what other people are looking at on the computer screens. that is a problem.
if the poster of the question had been offended by reading material on the shelves, that's an entirely different matter- _that_ is censorship.
having a problem with one's own children (not other people's) being exposed to - for example-the softcore porn that is the music video industry, and feeling as though the library should be set up so that what people view on the internet remains private is just plain sensible, in my opinion.

also, the teens in question likewise should be able to read information without other people seeing. for example, a GLBT teen might be seeking information that cannot be accessed in a high school or middle school library. would that person want to look at information about being out, for example, if other people could see and that teen was shy or in a repressive family or community?

(and.. you guys.. the filters are ALREADY there. on the computers in your library. just ask if you don't believe me...)


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hildare* 
public spaces ARE public spaces, but no one should have to view what other people are looking at on the computer screens. that is a problem.

I don't call myself a librarian because I don't have an MLIS, but I've worked in one for quite a while. I'm wondering what your proposal would be to keep public computers completely private. That is, how could a library achieve that? How could you guarantee that children will not be exposed to an adults internet browsing? Once the filters are in place according to CIPA, then there really isn't much more a library can do, unless they put each computer in a room by itself... with locked doors.


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## green betty (Jun 13, 2004)

ITA what the librarians on this thread have said. If I was in a similar situation and I was concerned about my child's exposure to something graphic, I might _nicely_ ask the teenager in question if s/he would mind waiting to watch the graphic content until we were gone, because I wasn't comfortable with my child's exposure. If that person consented to doing me that favor, I'd get our business done and hustle out quickish so as not to overly inconvience them. If the answer was no, I would respect that and either put up with it or leave and come back some other time. Chances are also good I wouldn't consider it worth bothering the person and skip straight to the latter solution.

IMO, this is part of walking the walk when it comes to respecting diversity. It's not all peace and love and Valuable Cultural Experiences.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

The computers in the children's section at our library are for ages 12 and under.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

What if the tables were turned and a mainstream parent complained about seeing a birth video that you were showing your kids at the library?
Then I would turn off the video, or show it to the kids elsewhere. I'm into birth as much as anyone here, but I can understand if someone thought it was inappropriate for library viewing.


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## Rosebud1 (Sep 8, 2007)

I know people may have a right to be uncensored in their viewing (I guess, though should public tax dollars be used to support one's smut habit?), but what about MY right to not be bombarded with provacative sexual images when simply browsing for board books with my toddler?

Time and a place, time and a place folks.

Our culture seems to be much more focused on individual rights than the greater good, or the environment it creates.

Wanna watch raunchy stuff? Have at it! Wanna watch it in a public space designed for children using free resources? Uh not so much.

Fishnets and sexual acts in the children's section?! Really?

I worked as a librarian in the past and one thing we did was install blurring screens atop the computer screen. So a computer screen could only be clearly viewed if you were right in front of it. This was important, because many men would come in and look at really graphic pornography and I did not want to be in a work environment where I had to be around that. I think that would be "my" right!

OP, I think if you don't hear back and continue to phone tag, this sich would make a great letter to the local newspaper. Then maybe something will be done. I'll help you write it!

Can't believe this is even debated. What interesting times we live in.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

I wouldn't be happy seeing that at the library, but I would be even more unhappy to find out that our library was trying to censor material too. Whether or not someone watches or listens to Marylin Manson music videos is not up to the library. Wanna make it so you have to be right in front of the monitor to see what's on it? Fine. Want to restrict access in a public library? No way, no how. I've seen what happens when one parent gets to decide what is appropriate for an entire group. You end up with a teacher telling a 5 year old student she can't draw a picture of her family because it's "inappropriate".


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Our local library is small and there are screens facing the kids's area too. It had been more or less managed by shelving but there was a flood due to a leaky roof and we lost a lot of the nice kids' stuff.









Anyways no, it wouldn't bother me much - I'd redirect my child's attention. That's why I go with my son to the library right now. Even walking down the street one's bound to run into things.


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosebud1* 
I know people may have a right to be uncensored in their viewing (I guess, though should public tax dollars be used to support one's smut habit?), but what about MY right to not be bombarded with provacative sexual images when simply browsing for board books with my toddler?

Time and a place, time and a place folks.

Our culture seems to be much more focused on individual rights than the greater good, or the environment it creates.

Wanna watch raunchy stuff? Have at it! Wanna watch it in a public space designed for children using free resources? Uh not so much.

Fishnets and sexual acts in the children's section?! Really?

I worked as a librarian in the past and one thing we did was install blurring screens atop the computer screen. So a computer screen could only be clearly viewed if you were right in front of it. This was important, because many men would come in and look at really graphic pornography and I did not want to be in a work environment where I had to be around that. I think that would be "my" right!

OP, I think if you don't hear back and continue to phone tag, this sich would make a great letter to the local newspaper. Then maybe something will be done. I'll help you write it!

Can't believe this is even debated. What interesting times we live in.


The reason individual rights are so important (why there is and ought to be a debate over these kinds of things) is because no single individual...nay even they majority, should be able to make the call as to what is appropriate for the "greater good". Nobody gets to make that call for my family but my family. So if it bothers you, leave the space and come back later. That is where your rights begin and end.

I would have had a much larger problem if the content had been violent personally. But even in that case I would by no means call for censorship.

The problem with pulling the "public space...free resources" card is where does that mentality end? I am a public school teacher and I have an equal problem with parents trying to tell me what I can or cannot teach because I am publicly funded "with their tax dollars." Get over it. Move on. You are going to have to deal with stuff like this your kid's whole life, so its never to early to explain to your kid why the content is problamatic. Open discussion imo is way more powerful than censorship!


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## KristaDJ (May 30, 2009)

Taking my kids in the adult section and seeing that is TOTALLY different, I'm talking about it in my kids faces where we can not utilize the kids section without seeing it. I feel that's a violation of MY rights and _my kids_ rights.

I don't understand why people are getting so snarky about this, I simply asked if it happened at your local libraries or if it would offend you, that's pretty simple to answer without going off. Once again I said NOTHING about censorship but everyone is insisting that I'm trying to censor what these other people do at the library. I'm just trying to get them to move it to a more appropriate place, ie you poop in the bathroom not the lobby, simple concept there is a time and place for things.

I also don't appreciate the comments on my parenting choices, to each there own. I'm not here to debate my parenting choices.


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## no5no5 (Feb 4, 2008)

Am I the only one on MDC who thinks that Marilyn Manson kicks







?









Seriously, it wouldn't bother me if my 4 year old happened to see a video like this. She probably wouldn't notice it, tbh. Nudity, dancing, whatever.







Violence would bother me more, but I'm still all for free libraries.

Our library has computers that are just for kids, and I know they enforce that policy because I once had a very irritated librarian ask if I was under 18.







There is internet access, but our library's strategy is apparently to make the internet so slow that watching videos is impossible. It takes me fifteen minutes just to search the online card catalog.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *no5no5* 
Am I the only one on MDC who thinks that Marilyn Manson kicks







?









Seriously, it wouldn't bother me if my 4 year old happened to see a video like this. She probably wouldn't notice it, tbh. Nudity, dancing, whatever.







Violence would bother me more, but I'm still all for free libraries.

Our library has computers that are just for kids, and I know they enforce that policy because I once had a very irritated librarian ask if I was under 18.







There is internet access, but our library's strategy is apparently to make the internet so slow that watching videos is impossible. It takes me fifteen minutes just to search the online card catalog.









I can't say that I love Marilyn Manson, but I did see him in concert ages ago at the request of a friend when I was barely 14!!

I feel really young when reading this thread because when the OP said it was a Marilyn Manson video that got her so upset I almost laughed (sorry OP not at you just at the thought of one of his videos)....I don't find them offensive or inappropriate I suppose, just mildly ridiculous. My DD is still a baby but having been a nanny for years and years before DD was born, I ran into some situations about things that maybe might have been inappropriate... I think the OP should have moved herself and her children or left. The computers are where they are regardless of the section.

I figure DD will be exposed to a lot and my job is more to help her understand it than try to stop every little thing coming her way. Then again it takes a lot to offend me. Violence is just about the only thing that will make me angry, sexuality is absolutely normal even in it's more bizarre forms and pretending like it isn't there isn't doing my DD any favors.


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## starlein26 (Apr 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *no5no5* 
Am I the only one on MDC who thinks that Marilyn Manson kicks







?


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## Narmowen (Jan 7, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
I don't call myself a librarian because I don't have an MLIS, but I've worked in one for quite a while. I'm wondering what your proposal would be to keep public computers completely private. That is, how could a library achieve that? How could you guarantee that children will not be exposed to an adults internet browsing? Once the filters are in place according to CIPA, then there really isn't much more a library can do, unless they put each computer in a room by itself... with locked doors.

I AM a librarian (MLIS in 3 weeks), and that could be done with a privacy screen . With a privacy screen, you have to be directly in front of the computer in order to see what's on it. Instead of censoring (which has many, many problems, especially with the ALA *American Library Association*).

Filters often catch too much, especially when homework and/or school work must be researched.

Sometime to keep in mind is that there are library policies that are against pornography (nipples and/or genitals), but things like what the OP saw would NOT be a problem. A bathing suit would be all right. A person with a sheet covering their butt, lying face down, topless, turning around to look at the photographer would be acceptable, since, although the person is nude, nothing shows.

ETA: If the computers are in the children's area I would definitely bring that up to the director. Computers in the children's area are generally meant for children, and I could see why you were/are upset.


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## Cuddlebaby (Jan 14, 2003)

this is a HUGE issue. as you can see from the length of this thread. The American Library Association is against filters. they are quite liberal. http://www.ala.org/ala/aboutala/offi...verfilters.cfm they are about free speech (unless you are talking about putting a 10 commandments stone or a nativity scene outside the library). Not all libraries abide by their recommendations. Ours has adult computers (the ONLY ones not filtered) in a room w/ a door, you have to check in and out so they can monitor who is in there and their age. rest of the library has filters. I am very thankful for them. Please don't even let your kids search "Alice in Wonderland" on an unfiltered computer. AND (I also help out lots in our school and our local library) when they DO have filters they have to be updated **constantly** just like a virus or worm protection needs to be. things are always slipping through.


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## nolonger (Jan 18, 2006)

I wouldn't want that in my kid's face either. We can reserve (a limited number of) books online here and have them waiting for us at the front checkout desk, so that is what I would probably do.


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## ~Demeter~ (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ldavis24* 

I figure DD will be exposed to a lot and my job is more to help her understand it than try to stop every little thing coming her way.


This exactly. You can't prevent them from every single inappropriate exposure... your job therefore is to help them process it a healthy way. In a situation like that I might have said to my child(ren) (had they noticed), I'm really not sure that's appropriate viewing at the library. What do you think? Then we would have an open conversation about what is appropriate for the library and what is not.

That said, my kids have been listening to/watching Marilyn Manson videos since they were quite small. I went to a Manson concert while pregnant with #2. I like Manson and I don't necessarily view him as inappropriate.


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## Momily (Feb 15, 2007)

I think it's important to remember that the users in this case were children too.

I can't speak for you area, but in my area, libraries have 2 sections. One is clearly designed for younger children -- the furniture is small, the books are probably appropriate for up to about 6th grade, and the rules are a little more relaxed as far as noise etc . . . Then there's the adult room, which is very well adult -- quiet, formal, you get glared at if you whisper. What is there for 13 - 17 year olds? They get one twirly rack of "young adult" fiction.

If your library has a separate teen room, the I'll take this back, but if it doesn't then you need to ask yourself, where you'd rather you child be at 13, 14, 15? In the children's room or outside of the library altogether, having gotten the message that he's not welcome there.


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## HipGal (Aug 16, 2006)

That doesn't happen at our library and I wouldn't be okay with it at all. Our closest library has one kids' computer that only plays kids' games (preprogrammed, not internet). The rest of the non-catalog computers are downstairs in the adult section. It seems to work well as the kids don't see the adult stuff and the adults aren't bothered by noisy kids when they are trying to work/concentrate.

I wouldn't care if my teenager wanted to watch Manson or whatever else, but I wouldn't want a video like that playing near the children's section. I don't consider in censorship to restrict what is playing near the books that are meant for little kids. Just like if the library had porn (does it? I never knew!







), I wouldn't expect them to shelve it next to the board books, kwim? It isn't a "you can't watch that" thing as much as a "you can watch that over there instead".


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Narmowen* 
I AM a librarian (MLIS in 3 weeks), and that could be done with a privacy screen . With a privacy screen, you have to be directly in front of the computer in order to see what's on it. Instead of censoring (which has many, many problems, especially with the ALA *American Library Association*).

Filters often catch too much, especially when homework and/or school work must be researched.

Sometime to keep in mind is that there are library policies that are against pornography (nipples and/or genitals), but things like what the OP saw would NOT be a problem. A bathing suit would be all right. A person with a sheet covering their butt, lying face down, topless, turning around to look at the photographer would be acceptable, since, although the person is nude, nothing shows.

ETA: If the computers are in the children's area I would definitely bring that up to the director. Computers in the children's area are generally meant for children, and I could see why you were/are upset.

Congratulations on your degree.

I agree that privacy screens would be a good idea, but kids can still walk right behind someone and see what they are looking at. They may not be able to view it at a diagonal, but they can still see what people are doing on the computer.

I'm addressing this from a PRACTICAL standpoint. I work in a library. I just managed a project to put in new computers in a children's/teen's department. I know what legally can and cannot be done. Libraries cannot make computers public access then say only people of a certain age can use them in certain areas (according to the attorney on our board of directors). It sounds like some libraries are doing this. If someone wanted to push the issue, the library could get in trouble for age discrimination. Filters must be on ALL the computers according to CIPA. Beyond that, there really isn't much a library can do. Nor is it their responsibility. We spent a YEAR dealing with this issue and we were as thorough as any library has been about what is our responsibility.

If you don't want your kid to see what others might be doing on the computer, keep them away from the computers. If you want the computers moved, it takes money, and with public library budgets, be prepared for them to ask you to raise the funding for something that isn't in that year's tight budget.

Oh, and while the filters may catch things that should be allowed an do not catch things that should not be allowed... that's the job of the computer tech team... to add those one-off sites. But there is no way to say "block out only Marilyn Manson You Tube". It's all or nothing. So, when people talk about filters, be careful what you ask for (even in your own minds) because you could be cutting off your nose to spite your face. That's why it's a slippery slope. You block Marilyn Manson and you block Susan Boyle, too. If all nudity is blocked then what does a student do if they are studying the nude sculptures of Maillol?

ETA: I despise Marilyn Manson. I personally think he is a disgusting human being and don't like his music. But I will fight for the right of others to listen to him and view his videos.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

"...sounds to me like the problem is in the physical set up of the library. if you complain enough, it will probably get results."

Yup. I'm sure that my library operates under the exact same public-access laws as all other libraries, but the teensy little desks in the children's section, and the broad geographic distance between that section and the wing where the YA/adult books are shelved and the adult-sized computer desks are located, effectively solves the problem of teens or adults attempting to do inappropriate browsing in the kids' section.

It's true, there's no way I could check my email in the kids' section without looking like a fool. But that's a small price to pay for a setup that screams "don't surf here! These computers are for the little kids!"

And honestly, federal law or no federal law, I cannot IMAGINE these librarians tolerating an adult or teen hanging out in the little kid's section watching Marilyn Manson videos, looking at Playboy, whatever. This is the buckle of the Bible Belt, though, and a small town. People tend to share a conception of manners and discretion that involves not consuming sexual media in front of small children.

From what I can tell, though, anybody who can operate a computer independently is allowed to sit in the adult section and look at whatever. Again, small town, if they were being disruptive in any way that would be shushed by the adults around them and the librarian would go looking for their mom. But I imagine my son at age 10 or so, being quiet, announcing when asked that he is doing a report on Topic X, and then watching whatevertheheck. But that's a personal thing between me and my son - he wouldn't be exposing anybody else's kids to inappropriate stuff, and it's my job to make sure that he follows the family guidelines in his own media consumption.

Same thing for the 13 y.o. who wants to watch Marilyn Manson - do it quietly in the teen/adult section, and you'll get no flack from me (although your mother may shut you down when she walks by). Do it front of my toddlers on the unscreened computers in the kid's section, and I will march right up and remind you of your manners, and then go looking for your mom so SHE can remind you of your manners, and if neither of those work I am sure the children's librarian will be only to happy to remind you of your manners. Plus, you look really silly lying on the floor so you can reach the keyboard.


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## momo7 (Apr 10, 2005)

I would be PO'd too. I wonder if those kids even have library cards? The public library in Topeka requires that anyone using the computers have library cards...you have to type in your code to use them. Also there is a time limit as well so people can't just sit there all day and take up computer time that other people need. there are filters on the computers so that people just can't sit around and watch "whatever"
















I know that there was a serious problem with kids just hanging out all day on the computer, being loud and running all over with no parental supervision. There was some drug-dealing going on and sexually explicit conduct. I know....(at the library? Are you kidding?







)

Now there are actually policeman who come and kind of patrol around to make sure everything stays library-friendly. I can't believe the police come to the library to keep order..isn't that sad? But it's become a necessary thing so that that people can actually use the library in peace and quiet (and for what it is).


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## mandib50 (Oct 26, 2004)

i have removed several posts from this thread, many because they were discussing posts that contained UAV.

please keep the UA in mind when posting to the thread:

Quote:

Do not post in a disrespectful, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, demeaning criticism, name-calling, personal attack or in any way which violates the law.
and

Quote:

Do not post or start a thread to discuss member behavior or statements of members made in other threads or to criticize another discussion on the boards. Do not post to a thread to take direct issue with a member. If you feel a member has posted or behaved inappropriately in a discussion, communicate directly with the member, moderator or administrator privately and refrain from potentially defaming discussion in a thread.
thanks.
marianne


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## leighi123 (Nov 14, 2007)

The kids area here has kids games and a kids version of the library catalogue.

There are a couple other computers that have internet, with filters to restrict the internet.

There is a teen book area with computers that teens can use.

Computers with open access are in the adult area, BUT there are also signs saying you will be kicked off the computers if you are accessing porn or anything along those lines.

In a public place, there should be some restrictions, more so in the kids areas than others.


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## Katie T (Nov 8, 2008)

OP, I agree with you that that is not ok esp in the children's area, makes me wonder if the child/children on the computers parents knew what there child was watching...


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## Purple*Lotus (Nov 1, 2007)

At all of the libraries in my area- I am working towards a Library Science degree a couple of classes at a time, so I have been to them all for school related reasons- the code of conduct in them all states that you can't use their internet for message boards *yep, no MDC there*, videos and a long list of other reasons. So no, it would not happen at any around here.

The only exception is the University library, where you can use it for pretty much everything except the obvious- porn, etc, but there the children's section is on a whole other floor from where the student's computer's are.


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## ilovemygirl (Sep 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HipGal* 
I wouldn't care if my teenager wanted to watch Manson or whatever else, but I wouldn't want a video like that playing near the children's section. I don't consider in censorship to restrict what is playing near the books that are meant for little kids. Just like if the library had porn (does it? I never knew!







), I wouldn't expect them to shelve it next to the board books, kwim? It isn't a "you can't watch that" thing as much as a "you can watch that over there instead".

ITA with this!

Also, just because you can doesn't mean you should. I'm sure there's no law against bringing my toddler to the middle of the adult reference section where dozens of people are trying to concentrate and work and letting her loose to play making tons of noise but that doesn't make it the right thing to do. It's not appropriate use of what that area is meant for just like it's not appropriate use of the preschoolers area to have teens playing videos that *most* people deem inappropriate for young kids. I think it's common decency.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ilovemygirl* 
I think it's common decency.

I'm not really picking on you, but this phrase currently hits my irritation meter because of the way someone else used it a couple days ago. I don't have a problem with people watching music videos. I wouldn't care much if my kid saw them. My daughter is rather obsessed with Lady Gaga. (I have no idea how it got started.) She isn't two yet. She's seen most of the videos (I vetoed Paparazzi for being too graphic) and I doubt Marilyn Manson is worse.

I find that when people start campaigning for common decency, or a particular set of manners they are almost invariably not using any definitions of those terms I agree with. If I had a problem with what someone was doing in one area of the library I would walk up to that person and say, "Hey... I don't think you are actually doing anything wrong but I feel kind of uncomfortable with you doing that in the kid section. Do you think you might be willing to move that to an adult area?" I would not complain to the librarian. I would not complain to the director. I would treat the person I was having an issue with as a person and give them the chance to find out that their behavior is hitting buttons for someone. In my opinion *that* is the common decency. Not trying to make sure all behavior of all people everywhere is what some random person decrees. I'm not interested in playing that game. If the person said, "I don't really want to move" I would take my kid and go elsewhere. That to me is how being respectful of the people around you works.


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## WingonWing (Jan 10, 2009)

_Filters must be on ALL the computers according to CIPA_

I'm a librarian, too. This statement is completely false. If your library restricts public access to information by taking federal funding that requires filters, so be it.

But my library makes a point of funding its own internet access so we can do what public libraries are supposed to do--provide unrestricted access to everyone regardless of age. Please see the Library Bill of Rights and the Freedom to Read and Freedom to View statements for more information. That's what guides public libraries.

OP, if you're willing to pay for privacy screens, great! If not, you'll have to make the same decision that a patron of ours who saw a Jane's Addiction album cover in the Teen room had to make last week--get your free* information and free* programming elsewhere.

*and by that I mean already-paid-for-by-taxes.


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## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

I do not want my library to make "think of the children" censorship decisions-I hate the very thought of it. The library should be a place of unfettered access to information.

If my son saw something I thought was inaappropriate we would talk about it, not censor the person looking at whatever it is. In fact, I would relish this discussion. What a great way to talk about how important libraries are to the free flow of ideas-both good and bad-in this country.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rightkindofme* 
I'm not really picking on you, but this phrase currently hits my irritation meter because of the way someone else used it a couple days ago. I don't have a problem with people watching music videos. I wouldn't care much if my kid saw them. My daughter is rather obsessed with Lady Gaga. (I have no idea how it got started.) She isn't two yet. She's seen most of the videos (I vetoed Paparazzi for being too graphic) and I doubt Marilyn Manson is worse.

I find that when people start campaigning for common decency, or a particular set of manners they are almost invariably not using any definitions of those terms I agree with. If I had a problem with what someone was doing in one area of the library I would walk up to that person and say, "Hey... I don't think you are actually doing anything wrong but I feel kind of uncomfortable with you doing that in the kid section. Do you think you might be willing to move that to an adult area?" I would not complain to the librarian. I would not complain to the director. I would treat the person I was having an issue with as a person and give them the chance to find out that their behavior is hitting buttons for someone. In my opinion *that* is the common decency. Not trying to make sure all behavior of all people everywhere is what some random person decrees. I'm not interested in playing that game. If the person said, "I don't really want to move" I would take my kid and go elsewhere. That to me is how being respectful of the people around you works.

This, especially in reference to what is appropriate for children. Why? There are people who think children should be protected from my family in the name of "common decency."

I also agree that common decency is addressing the person you have an issue with respectfully and if that doesn't work then use your own personal right to leave the area.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

I think I'm responsible for monitoring what my kid watches, not the library. If I were uncomfortable with Marilyn Manson (and I'm sure I would be), we'd move.

I'm very much anti-censorship.


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## momo7 (Apr 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *betsyj* 
I do not want my library to make "think of the children" censorship decisions-I hate the very thought of it. The library should be a place of unfettered access to information.

So....you would be totally ok with someone watching hard core porn on the internet in a public place where anyone who walks by can see what said person is watching......? ( and I am NOT talking here about music videos....I am talking about "unfettered access". What does that really mean anyway and in what context and how far does it go?)

I am all for do what you want to do, when you want to do it, but I also believe that there is a time and a place for everything. As much as some people here hate the idea of "common decency" there are just somethings that really do fall into this category.

Yeah I know I can leave the area but at the same time is it right that someone who is being inappropriate with what they are viewing should really take it somewhere else. I mean we all have to share the same space, what's a little consideration where children are concerned?


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## Narmowen (Jan 7, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WingonWing* 
_Filters must be on ALL the computers according to CIPA_

I'm a librarian, too. This statement is completely false. If your library restricts public access to information by taking federal funding that requires filters, so be it.

But my library makes a point of funding its own internet access so we can do what public libraries are supposed to do--provide unrestricted access to everyone regardless of age. Please see the Library Bill of Rights and the Freedom to Read and Freedom to View statements for more information. That's what guides public libraries.

OP, if you're willing to pay for privacy screens, great! If not, you'll have to make the same decision that a patron of ours who saw a Jane's Addiction album cover in the Teen room had to make last week--get your free* information and free* programming elsewhere.

*and by that I mean already-paid-for-by-taxes.

A wonderful point. It does depend on how you get your internet (funding, grants etc). Many libraries (within the ALA) are against censorship, including filters because of the problems it can cause. Because libraries have the need to provide access to ALL types of information. Not just the butterflies and bunnies, but the STD's, sex and death.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EFmom* 
I think I'm responsible for monitoring what my kid watches, not the library. If I were uncomfortable with Marilyn Manson (and I'm sure I would be), we'd move.

I'm very much anti-censorship.

You make a wonderful point, ERmom. Some of the librarians I know (and myself) have the view that "we are not the parents" & "it is not our job to parent the children". It not only applies to censorship, but also to leaving children unattended in the libraries, and many other things relating to parenting. It's the librarian's job to provide access to most if not all types of information. I say that because even watching music video's can be part of homework. We have no way of knowing. (I'm also anti-censorship. In our teen summer reading program last year, one of our discussions was about censorship and the local high school teachers are still talking about it!)


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momo7* 
So....you would be totally ok with someone watching hard core porn on the internet in a public place where anyone who walks by can see what said person is watching......? ( and I am NOT talking here about music videos....I am talking about "unfettered access". What does that really mean anyway and in what context and how far does it go?)

I am all for do what you want to do, when you want to do it, but I also believe that there is a time and a place for everything. As much as some people here hate the idea of "common decency" there are just somethings that really do fall into this category.

Yeah I know I can leave the area but at the same time is it right that someone who is being inappropriate with what they are viewing should really take it somewhere else. I mean we all have to share the same space, what's a little consideration where children are concerned?


Um, people _do_ look at porn at the public library. Everyday. If they are doing it in the kids section than it makes them super creepy, but it's still their right to do so.

I so completely disagree with the "common decency" argument. Because like a previous poster, these moral lines drawn in the sand never reflect my personal priorities. It assumes that most people must think/believe what you do. Not to say this is the case with you momo7, but most folks I know who believe in "common decency" are very religious, and rather intolerant.

Isn't it interesting how most "inappropriate for children" arguments revolve around sex? Why is that? I find violence more reprehensible, personally.


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## Narmowen (Jan 7, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl* 
Isn't it interesting how most "inappropriate for children" arguments revolve around sex? Why is that? I find violence more reprehensible, personally.

So do I. Sex is natural. Naked bodies are natural. Violence, however, is something that is unnatural (to me)...

I don't think I worded that the best, but I hope my thoughts come across clear.


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## JudiAU (Jun 29, 2008)

I imagine it is actually a filter problem. Most library computes have no or few filters. The computers set up in the children's area are probably to protect the kids from the adult's filth. The filters are set highest there.

Usually, the computers in the children's area do not allow surfing at all. That would be my point of inquiry. The librarian's have their hands tied in so many ways and they take so much abuse from (filth-seeking) adults.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Our library is set up so the children's section is completely separated by a little indoor playground. The teen area is the opposite end of the library, and it is separated by the study rooms. The computers are in the middle and are used by anybody who wants to use them. I would be pretty annoyed at having the children's section next to the computers anyway.


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## momo7 (Apr 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl* 
Um, people _do_ look at porn at the public library. Everyday. If they are doing it in the kids section than it makes them super creepy, but it's still their right to do so.

I so completely disagree with the "common decency" argument. Because like a previous poster, these moral lines drawn in the sand never reflect my personal priorities. It assumes that most people must think/believe what you do. Not to say this is the case with you momo7, but most folks I know who believe in "common decency" are very religious, and rather intolerant.

Isn't it interesting how most "inappropriate for children" arguments revolve around sex? Why is that? I find violence more reprehensible, personally.

So whatever happened to using good judgement? I am thinking that has a lot to do with "common decency". Maybe the phrase "good judgement" could be substituted for "common decency"? Don't you think there is a place and a time for everything? There are things that should be done in private that we don't share with the whole world because it's just not "good judgement" to let it all just "flop" right out there for everybody to see? (and NO I am not talking about breast feeding in public either







)

I really do disagree with you







I don't think it is their right. They are in a place where children can see it....it's the same reason why little children are not allowed to buy pornographic magazines in a book store...because it is so..."inappropriate" (perhaps another phrase substitution).

I have a HUGE problem with sex AND violence when it comes to children. This is such a rotten world sometimes and little children seem to be loosing their innocence at earlier and earlier ages. (NO I am not a religious right winger either). I don't think there is anything wrong with protecting a child's innocence over somebody's "right" to watch sexually explicit acts or even truly violent images







I don't think there is anything wrong with that at all. I am totally NOT talking about censorship BTW, I am talking about things that the general population doesn't expect to see when they go out in a public place...such as the two examples I mentioned above.

When I speak about "common decency" I am not speaking of the religious "moral" right ...I'm speaking about things we generally don't do in public.... like urinate in front of people or masturbate or even watch pornography in plain sight....I mean that would be a lack of "common decency" not to mention "lack of good manners" (yet another phrase substitution instead of "common decency"). When people are in public I guess they can choose to act however they like.....but it seems to me people would use "common sense" and act with behavior that actually is conducive to public activities when they were in plain sight and around children.....I mean that would be "common decency" right? Aren't there things you just don't do or say in front of children that would be considered inconsistent with "common decency" because it's just too risque?

Maybe the phrase "common sense" should be substituted instead of "common decency" if some people find it too offensive to say it like that.









BTW: I'm so NOT trying to be snotty, snide or sarcastic here....I really am trying to keep it real.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

When talking about what someone can access from a public place, you are talking about censorship. That is what censorship is, deciding for someone else what is appropriate and not appropriate. I would never look at porn on a public computer, but that is my choice to make. Just like it's another persons choice to choose the opposite.

That is why there is such disagreement about what should be allowed on library computers, my understanding is that in the US there is a law saying there needs to be filters in place, but there are precedent cases that say it is a violation of the first amendment, and why libraries can get around the filter law by not using public funding to fund their internet access.


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## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

Quote:

When people are in public I guess they can choose to act however they like.....but it seems to me people would use "common sense" and act with behavior that actually is conducive to public activities when they were in plain sight and around children.
And if you think about it, most people do try to behave themselves. Of course there is always the small percentage of people who don't. And, we remember them in greater proportion to their actual numbers.

To make a broad censorship law based on the viewing habits of a few teenagers or porn watchers goes against everything I believe libraries should be about.

Quote:

Yeah I know I can leave the area but at the same time is it right that someone who is being inappropriate with what they are viewing should really take it somewhere else. I mean we all have to share the same space, what's a little consideration where children are concerned?
Because people make this argument about breastfeeding and birth vidoes and sex education and homosexual marriage. You simply can not pick and choose what you consider obscene without ensuring that a lot of good info gets lost in the process.

So I will always choose for there to be a chance my son might see some sex or violence that we can talk about, rather then allow anyone to base censorship decisions on what is best for the children.


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## no5no5 (Feb 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momo7* 
When I speak about "common decency" I am not speaking of the religious "moral" right ...I'm speaking about things we generally don't do in public.... like urinate in front of people or masturbate or even watch pornography in plain sight....I mean that would be a lack of "common decency" not to mention "lack of good manners" (yet another phrase substitution instead of "common decency"). When people are in public I guess they can choose to act however they like.....but it seems to me people would use "common sense" and act with behavior that actually is conducive to public activities when they were in plain sight and around children.....I mean that would be "common decency" right? Aren't there things you just don't do or say in front of children that would be considered inconsistent with "common decency" because it's just too risque?

Here's the thing: Of course there are things I don't and wouldn't do in front of children, or in public. Most of these things are things I wouldn't do anywhere, even if I were alone. And when I see people doing them in public, it bugs me. It really does...but I recognize that everyone has their own standard of behavior. Just because I think it is sad and icky that some people kill and eat animals, and I don't want to have to see anyone do it, does not mean that I can't recognize that others have a right to do it, and to do it in public. No, I don't want my kid to see it, but your right to do it is more important than my desire to protect her from seeing it.

There is no "common decency." We all make up our own minds about what we like and what we don't like, what we want to see and experience and what we don't. We don't agree on it--and if we did, then of course we'd never be having this discussion because nobody would ever act outside of the bounds of what we agreed upon. Personally, I think it makes sense to err on the side of letting people use their own judgment rather than on the side of controlling others' access to information.


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

In our library, the internet computers are separate from the kids area. The computers in the kids area only have kids games on them. I would not be ok with people accessing stuff like that in the kids area where my child could see, and I'm the type of parent who is lenient with what I allow my child to see. I still like to somewhat sensor material though, and sexual stuff (even if it's not as obvious as p*rn) is often where I draw the line.

I believe people have the right to do what they want in public, within reason, but I would think poorly of a library staff who didn't take into consideration how their computer set-up affected young children.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bandgeek* 
In our library, the internet computers are separate from the kids area. The computers in the kids area only have kids games on them. I would not be ok with people accessing stuff like that in the kids area where my child could see, and I'm the type of parent who is lenient with what I allow my child to see. I still like to somewhat sensor material though, and sexual stuff (even if it's not as obvious as p*rn) is often where I draw the line.

I believe people have the right to do what they want in public, within reason, but I would think poorly of a library staff who didn't take into consideration how their computer set-up affected young children.

Who's reason do we use? Sexual stuff is not high on my list of things to protect my children from. Violence is much, much higher but most parents don't seem to have problem with it in public places, or even with allowing their children to be violent. Gender stereotypes is even higher, but you see that in everything, with it most blatantly directed at young children. I don't want to see my kids looking at toy advertisements that separate the products into "Toys for Girls" and "Toys for Boys" but we actually got a flyer in the mail that did just that.

There are things I _want_ my children exposed to are continually censored. Just a few years ago the school district decided that books that involve same-sex parents were "inappropriate" for young children. Um, excuse me? There _are_ those young children and they have every right to be equally represented in her class room.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momo7* 
So whatever happened to using good judgement? I am thinking that has a lot to do with "common decency". Maybe the phrase "good judgement" could be substituted for "common decency"? Don't you think there is a place and a time for everything? There are things that should be done in private that we don't share with the whole world because it's just not "good judgement" to let it all just "flop" right out there for everybody to see? (and NO I am not talking about breast feeding in public either







)

I really do disagree with you







I don't think it is their right. They are in a place where children can see it....it's the same reason why little children are not allowed to buy pornographic magazines in a book store...because it is so..."inappropriate" (perhaps another phrase substitution).

Who's good judgment will we be using? It doesn't sound like I agree with yours at all. A music video with people dancing in tight clothes isn't pornography. It is people dancing to music in clothes that many people, including me, would wear while they are out and about. I don't want to be ruled by other people's judgment, decency, morals, etc... If someone isn't breaking a law then they should be left to do what they are doing. If I have a problem with my dd seeing something then I will shield her from it or discuss both sides of the issue with her so she can see their point and mine. I don't think that imposing your judgment on my family and limiting what we can do is the way I want our society to go, even if you aren't a right wing conservative. Also, the examples you give of what we don't do are things people don't do because they are illegal in most cities and states.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)

Yeah, all our library computers are outside the children's area. You can not even see them really from there, but if you look really hard you can the backs. There are a row of "children's" computers set away from the regular computers that are restricted to children appropriate content. These are set up between the regular computers and the children's area. But all our computers are facing one direction and from the children's computers you can only see the backs of the other computers. So, our children are quite "safe" from unwanted sites in the children's area.

I really like our library.


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## delfin (Jul 11, 2007)

i can imagine parents in the 50s scandalized because their kids catched a glimpse of Elvis performing...you know....how he moves the hips!!the horror!!


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momo7* 

Yeah I know I can leave the area but at the same time is it right that someone who is being inappropriate with what they are viewing should really take it somewhere else. I mean we all have to share the same space, what's a little consideration where children are concerned?

The world is not G-rated. Nor should it be. I've got small kids. Not everyone does, and I don't expect everyone else to live their lives around my kids.

So yes, I think that in a public library, if you want to find something offensive, you can move somewhere else.

I'm a librarian (academic, not public). We get people in who are offended at what other people are looking at with some frequency. When they complain to me, I let them know where else in the library we have computers so that they can move. I do not approach the "offensive" patron, because it's not my job to censor what people do in the library.


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## momo7 (Apr 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
Who's good judgment will we be using? It doesn't sound like I agree with yours at all. A music video with people dancing in tight clothes isn't pornography. It is people dancing to music in clothes that many people, including me, would wear while they are out and about. I don't want to be ruled by other people's judgment, decency, morals, etc... If someone isn't breaking a law then they should be left to do what they are doing. If I have a problem with my dd seeing something then I will shield her from it or discuss both sides of the issue with her so she can see their point and mine. I don't think that imposing your judgment on my family and limiting what we can do is the way I want our society to go, even if you aren't a right wing conservative. Also, the examples you give of what we don't do are things people don't do because they are illegal in most cities and states.


You are missing my point entirely. I asked a question. I asked about good judgement in general and gave some examples. My question wasn't about what "I" consider good judgement. I was talking about it's general use. Another example would be like when you go into a convenience store and you see a magazine rack, and the ummm the "questionable" magazines are usually covered up to the titles. You know...'cause it's probably "good judgement" to cover them up so children can't see them.









BTW.....in some places it IS illegal not to use "good judgement".


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momo7* 

BTW.....in some places it IS illegal not to use "good judgement".

What does that even mean?


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momo7* 
You are missing my point entirely. I asked a question. I asked about good judgement in general and gave some examples. My question wasn't about what "I" consider good judgement. I was talking about it's general use. Another example would be like when you go into a convenience store and you see a magazine rack, and the ummm the "questionable" magazines are usually covered up to the titles. You know...'cause it's probably "good judgement" to cover them up so children can't see them.









BTW.....in some places it IS illegal not to use "good judgement".

Our school board thought it was general good judgment to protect young children from same sex families. They though the topic was questionable and not suitable for children. General good judgment has to come from someone or some group. Thankfully the government didn't agree with their idea of what is "good judgement".

So again, who's good judgment do we use?

Just because something is illegal it doesn't mean the law is a good one.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momo7* 
You are missing my point entirely. I asked a question. I asked about good judgement in general and gave some examples. My question wasn't about what "I" consider good judgement. I was talking about it's general use. Another example would be like when you go into a convenience store and you see a magazine rack, and the ummm the "questionable" magazines are usually covered up to the titles. You know...'cause it's probably "good judgement" to cover them up so children can't see them.









BTW.....in some places it IS illegal not to use "good judgement".

I don't think there is such a thing as "good judgment" in general. There are laws that people follow because they don't want to get in trouble, but "good judgment" in general implies that you are going to use someone's "good judgment", or the "good judgment" of a group of people and make that the standard. That brings up the question of who's we will use.

We actually don't have magazines that are covered up in our stores. Perhaps they put those in another section where kids aren't as likely to access or they don't sell them because they lose business if they don't. That isn't good judgment, that is good business sense. We still have many magazines in plain view that aren't blatant pornography, with easy to read titles that have spurred discussion in our family, but I still don't think that covering them up would be good judgment. It isn't something that a lot of people care about and if they do they go to the one family isle where there aren't any magazines.

I don't think that good judgment in general is something that any one person can dictate because not a lot of people agree on what good judgment is. And if it is illegal to not use "good judgment" then I would argue that it isn't good judgment people are using but fear of what happens to people who break the law.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

You would be reminded there is a children's section with plenty of room.

I have seen librains ask people to switch location for more risky materials, but if it is not porn (illigal for minors to watch) then it is mostly ignored.

What if they were reading the Joy of Sex? The Joy of Gay sex? Those pictures could be out there and easily seen by your kids. Your actions might have actually made the situation more noticable.

As young as your children are, move along. If a child notice talk to them about your opinion and beliefs. Adventually they are going to be more in the world and they will have to manage this stuff on their own.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
You also can't legally segregate in public libraries.

If computers are for public use, they have to be open for anybody, in any area. They can "call" an area "Adult Computer Area" and "Teen Computer Area", but they can't tell a teen they can't work on a computer in the Adult area. It's a compliance issue for public libraries. They have to have some minimum internet safety policies in place on ALL the computers. This is called CIPA certification (you can google for it). Look up E-Rate Certification, too. This the the whole "non discrimination" policy that public libraries have to follow in order to get your tax dollars. HTH!

Our library does this. Your library card works only at certain computers. We have children, teen, & adult. No one can use a library in another section. I never realized it was illegal.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *VisionaryMom* 
Our library does this. Your library card works only at certain computers. We have children, teen, & adult. No one can use a library in another section. I never realized it was illegal.

When we put in our new teen computer area last year, this subject came up. We have an attorney on our board of directors and she said that we can't restrict who uses what because it's public access and would considered age discrimination.

For example, if an adult really likes the Dr. Seuss storybook on the toddler's computers (that has no internet access), you can't tell them that they are too old to use the computer.

If all of the computers in the adult section are filled up, you can't make a patron wait if there are computers free in the children's/young adult section, and visa versa. I don't make the rules, I just follow them.


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
Our library has preteen/teen/youngadult books and materials in a separate room from the picture books and such. So pretty much only children under 11 or 12 yo are in the main children's section.

That's out set up.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

If someone were watching real, honest-to-betsy porn at the library I would be kind of shocked. I would probably walk up to the person and say, in a not quiet voice, "You realize that if a minor decides to hang out behind you that *you* can be arrested for displaying inappropriate images to a minor--right?" I don't think the library should censor all computers because there are a few idiots who don't think through the full consequences of their actions. I'm also big on directly addressing people I have a problem with. I don't want some anonymous 'The Man' taking care of things. I'm a big girl and I can address my issues myself.







If someone were looking at such things in the kid section I would tell them that it wasn't cool. I would glare at them in such a way that they would know loud and clear that I think they should leave. I have like a 99% success rate on my loud glares getting what I want so I'm good with that.









Beyond that if someone really really really wouldn't leave I would take my kids and go. We can come back another day.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
When we put in our new teen computer area last year, this subject came up. We have an attorney on our board of directors and she said that we can't restrict who uses what because it's public access and would considered age discrimination.

For example, if an adult really likes the Dr. Seuss storybook on the toddler's computers (that has no internet access), you can't tell them that they are too old to use the computer.

If all of the computers in the adult section are filled up, you can't make a patron wait if there are computers free in the children's/young adult section, and visa versa. I don't make the rules, I just follow them.









That's interesting and something I may bring up. I often use the library's computers if we're downtown & I need them, but my son has to twiddle his thumbs because they won't allow him to use the adult computers even with me sitting right there.

I know our library structure is a bit different because we're not public in that most of the money for the library doesn't come from the tax base. A small percentage of our property taxes go to the library, but they mostly are funded through trusts and donations. I wonder if there's a cut-off. I will have to look into this more because it would make my life a heck of a lot easier if they could ease up on that restriction.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
If you don't want your kid to see what others might be doing on the computer, keep them away from the computers. If you want the computers moved, it takes money, and with public library budgets, be prepared for them to ask you to raise the funding for something that isn't in that year's tight budget.

Ding, ding, ding. I think this is a point often missed. When we want something, we need to be prepared to do the work in making it happen. For me, I wouldn't want the library spending oodles of money on re-positioning monitors so that 1 or 2 people won't be offended if their children happen to see something they consider inappropriate. I'd prefer money spent on more materials.

OTOH, I've learned a lot reading this thread. Our library is very restrictive as far as ages go. Adults are not permitted in the children's section unless they are with children or actively checking out children's books, for example. Even when I go without my children, though they know me, I'm watched like a hawk to make sure I'm getting books. They're a bit over-the-top ime - but apparently they could be breaking the law as well.

Our library recently hired "security" (I have no idea why), and I know that I - and others - have asked him not to read over our shoulders when we're on the computers. I detest people watching while I'm working on something, but in this guy's mind, that's his "right" because it's his job to police the library. It's become quite a scary place.


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## momo7 (Apr 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Our school board thought it was general good judgment to protect young children from same sex families. They though the topic was questionable and not suitable for children. General good judgment has to come from someone or some group. Thankfully the government didn't agree with their idea of what is "good judgement".

So again, who's good judgment do we use?

Just because something is illegal it doesn't mean the law is a good one.


***SIGH*** THAT is not what I am talking about at all...I am not talking about same sex families, I am not talking about censorship. I gave examples of what people might consider as "good judgement" or (insert your own whatever word you want to use to take the place of things you do in public and things you don't do in public here) in a previous post. I also used different ways to phrase it such as "common sense". Just basic. common. sense.

I guess it comes down to this: Do what ever you want to do, when ever you want to do it, wherever you want to do it. Because all that REALLY matters is that you actually GET to do whatever you want to do, wherever you want to do it, whenever you want to do it. It doesn't matter who sees it, who might see it or who it scares the SH*& out of it. They can always leave. I get it now. Finally.


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## ms.shell (Jul 25, 2008)

all the computers at my pl are censored. we were without internet for a few months and i was QUITE distressed to discover i couldn't go on MDC at the library! (Their policy is not to allow access to any discussion forums).
BUT then they had a book called "SuperPuppy" in the children's section that was NOT a children's book at all. I didnt look at it when ds checked it out but he was QUITE distressed when he came to me and said "do you know what they do to dogs that go to the pound?"







I looked at the book, and it went into great detail about euthanasia and quoted numbers (millions of dogs killed each year). DS and i were both horrified. I spoke to the children's librarian when i returned it, told her exactly why it should not be in the children's section and she told me she would take care of it. I noticed last week it is still on the shelf in the children's dept.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momo7* 
***SIGH*** THAT is not what I am talking about at all...I am not talking about same sex families, I am not talking about censorship. I gave examples of what people might consider as "good judgement" or (insert your own whatever word you want to use to take the place of things you do in public and things you don't do in public here) in a previous post. I also used different ways to phrase it such as "common sense". Just basic. common. sense.

I guess it comes down to this: Do what ever you want to do, when ever you want to do it, wherever you want to do it. Because all that REALLY matters is that you actually GET to do whatever you want to do, wherever you want to do it, whenever you want to do it. It doesn't matter who sees it, who might see it or who it scares the SH*& out of it. They can always leave. I get it now. Finally.
















I mention same sex marriage because it affect my family directly and because people use "common sense" and "good judgement" to say that not it is not appropriate for anyone under 18.

We can't _legistate_ common sense. Nor should we try because we have to figure out _which person/groups_ common sense we have to use. Same with good judgment.

You can't say that we aren't allowed to do anything in public that might upset/scare/offend someone. We would never be allowed to do _anything_ in public. A vegan might be upset at seeing someone buy a big a$$ (yeah I can cuss too) steak for themselves. Do we prevent all people from purchasing meat in a public place? Um, no... A conservative Christian might be upset seeing a same sex couple holding hands on the beach. Do we prevent same sex couples from going out in public because someone might get offended? I sure and heck hope not. I've been offended by street corner Evangelists telling me what I _need_ to believe. Do we confine all Evangelists to their home? Annoying as they may be at times, I would hope to God we don't end up there. A parent gets offended seeing a Marylin Manson video in a _public_ library. Do I want to see music censorship in the library or general public realm? Hell no, particularly since I have been on the other side of it. I had the odd person try and censor the music my band played when I was in high school because they couldn't handle not going to that one club on that one night and the music offended them.

I have the right to get up and leave a place if I feel there is something inappropriate for myself or my family there. I do not have the right insist that all other people in the area conform to my idea of what is appropriate so that I don't get offended.

Maybe you don't see the full extent of what you are saying, maybe you don't have never been subjected to the full extent of what you're saying. I don't know, what I do know is that neither you nor anyone else has the right to dictate what is proper, or good judgment, or common sense for me and my family.


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
I mention same sex marriage because it affect my family directly and because people use "common sense" and "good judgement" to say that not it is not appropriate for anyone under 18.

We can't _legistate_ common sense. Nor should we try because we have to figure out _which person/groups_ common sense we have to use. Same with good judgment.

You can't say that we aren't allowed to do anything in public that might upset/scare/offend someone. We would never be allowed to do _anything_ in public. A vegan might be upset at seeing someone buy a big a$$ (yeah I can cuss too) steak for themselves. Do we prevent all people from purchasing meat in a public place? Um, no... A conservative Christian might be upset seeing a same sex couple holding hands on the beach. Do we prevent same sex couples from going out in public because someone might get offended? I sure and heck hope not. I've been offended by street corner Evangelists telling me what I _need_ to believe. Do we confine all Evangelists to their home? Annoying as they may be at times, I would hope to God we don't end up there. A parent gets offended seeing a Marylin Manson video in a _public_ library. Do I want to see music censorship in the library or general public realm? Hell no, particularly since I have been on the other side of it. I had the odd person try and censor the music my band played when I was in high school because they couldn't handle not going to that one club on that one night and the music offended them.

I have the right to get up and leave a place if I feel there is something inappropriate for myself or my family there. I do not have the right insist that all other people in the area conform to my idea of what is appropriate so that I don't get offended.

Maybe you don't see the full extent of what you are saying, maybe you don't have never been subjected to the full extent of what you're saying. I don't know, what I do know is that neither you nor anyone else has the right to dictate what is proper, or good judgment, or common sense for me and my family.









Nicely put.


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## Purple*Lotus (Nov 1, 2007)

From reading this thread, it sounds like my library is breaking a lot of rules







I posted already about the huge list of what you can not look at on their computers. And it seems to be standard at them all except for the University library. I wonder why they are able to get away with that?


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

OP: Is there a reason you didn't point out to the teen that there were little kids around and ask if maybe they could watch that some other time?


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