# Signing Up For An Epidural



## UrbanCrunchyMama (Aug 7, 2007)

One of my husband's friends *just knew* she wanted an epidural. She decided this before her son's birth, and followed through with that plan.

If you made the same decision before one of your children's births, how and why did you come to that decision?

I'm just trying to understand where she's coming from.

Thanks,
Lydia


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## ShareBear (Sep 14, 2007)

I didn't get epidurals with my two, but can I share the experience of a friend? She had her first with no epidural but I suspect only under pressure from her very crunchy MIL. The whole experience wasn't great because the labor was very long, she was exhausted, the baby needed extra care at birth, breastfeeding was a nightmare, etc.

With her second, she decided to get an epidural because her own mother, who's a very mainstream pediatrics nurse, had convinced her that they were "perfectly safe," and "why suffer through it if you don't have to," and after all she had had such a tough experience with her first baby. As it turned out, she had a very quick labor, two hours from first twinge to baby out, and it was too late for an epidural by the time she got to the hospital.


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## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

Um, labour hurts, and I don't like pain. And my s-i-l told me I should. I had lots of eople tellign me I coudl do it, and I didn't need one, but I figured, why not? Like I said, I don't like pain!! I also had a freind offer to be with me in labour (my mom wasn't sure if she'd be up to it, and I was scared I'd be all alone), but only if I had an epi.

I had it in my birth plan, and the dr. said it was fine. During the hospital tour, I told the nurses I wanted one, and they insisted it was bad for baby, and I didn't need one anyhow.

I still wanted one, but I didn't get it, and I'm still a little annoyed. I'll always wonder if I"d had one if I might no have ended up needing a c-section. (altho, conversely, if I had one and still needed a c-section, I'd have wondered if that was why.)

If I were ever planning to be in labour again, I'd like one, but I also know I can handle the pain sort of ok without it. (I had back labour, and was given pit, so it was pretty bad.) But it'd be nice to be eating fast food and reading magazines during labour like friends and family I know that have had epis. Kind of a moot point, since I seriously doubt I'd try for a vbac.


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## lanamommyphd07 (Feb 14, 2007)

I didn't have one, but I've heard over and over from friends that they plan to dilate to x-cm, then get the epidural. I always ask why, and they typically say they're afraid of the pain. So my guess is it's fear-driven. I would bet that these folks also take medication during menstruation to kill the pain too.


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## newmama8824 (Jul 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lanamommyphd07* 
I would bet that these folks also take medication during menstruation to kill the pain too.

Well, I take pain medication during my period because it hurts and it's not necessary to lay on the floor in the fetal position crying (I have extremely horrible menstrual cramps) but I don't want an epidural. It's not good for me, and it's not good for baby. Menstrual cramps aren't pain with a purpose... know what I mean?? I have no reason to sit through the pain of period cramps, I do have a reason to not get an epidural.

Anyways, I do agree that it's fear driven. When I ask why people have gotten them, it's mainly because they are scared of what it will feel like and would rather not endure the pain...


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## DBZ (Aug 9, 2005)

I planned to go natural with my first but I ended up being induced and it was hell. I got an epidural. With my second I was scared to death of labor so I planned on getting an epidural. I got it when I was 6cm. The contractions were hardly bothering me at that point, but I was so scared of the horrid pain I had with my first. Thankfully, with my third I learned that labor is nothing like my first.


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## broodymama (May 3, 2004)

Before I got pregnant with DS I knew I wanted an epidural. I don't like pain, have an extremely low pain tolerance and never knew anyone who didn't get one. Everyone I had met had an epidural during childbirth, so I never considered otherwise.

I changed my mind during pregnancy and am now happily planning my 3rd Hypnobabies birth. My dislike of needles won out.


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## pitter_patter (Jan 16, 2007)

I think fear is a big reason for many women, though likening taking Advil for cramps to getting an epi for childbirth is a bit of a stretch!









I had a saddle block because I *wanted* one. I wasn't afraid of the pain. I knew that if things went south and I needed an emergency c-section, I'd have to be put under general anesthesia and not be awake for my twins' first breaths. I was too excited to feel any pain, I didn't even feel the needle go in. My pain relief was great, no leg numbness. I had a few shots of lidocaine during my "repair"







, I felt the lido sticks more than the pain of labor or the epi insertion.


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## LemonPie (Sep 18, 2006)

I pretty much planned to have one with my first. I bought into all the horror stories that the media feeds us about childbirth and I had friends and family telling me how fabulous the epidural was. My husband said "you wouldn't have your teeth drilled without novocain. . .".

When my water broke and I went into *hard* labor 15 min later I was completely unprepared for the pain. By the time I got to the hospital I was vomiting from the pain and feeling like there was no way I could do this--I suspect I was in transition and would have had him really fast if I hadn't gone for the epi.

Thankfully with #2 I prepared myself for NCB and my water didn't break until I was 8/9, which made the contrax much more bearable for me. By the time I hit the "I can't do this anymore" stage I was 20 min from being done.

Jen


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## hempmama (Dec 16, 2004)

When I was trying to get pg with DD, I had a miscarriage at 15 weeks. I had it at home, with no medical care and no preparation that it could feel like anything more than "bad menstrual cramps" (fricking moron midwife), and it was the worst, most painful experience of my life thus far. When I got pg with my DD, I knew that experience would stick with me, and so did some research on epidurals(as well as other drugs- the epidural is the only one I'd be willing to get) in addition to working on natural pain management techniques. I pretty much expected to get the epidural, but thought you never can tell, I'd see what happens. But once labor got intense and I started having flashbacks, I stalled out, terrified and out of my head, so I got the epidural, which ramped things right back up, and my 9.5 DD practically slid out soon after. I ended up making the same decision with my son, though not becaues of flashbacks, but rather that I felt the epidural was a good choice given what I knew about it and the amount of pain I was in. I don't know what choice I'll make with my third. I'm contemplating going without it, but I've got several months to decide still.

I'm not positive why you asked- if it's just because you think it's awful anyone would ever want an epidural or want to vent about the people who do, I'm sorry to have replied. I certainly have that instinct on other topics, and see that MDC should be a safe space for that kind of thing. But for me (and I think this is true for a lot of people, though not everyone), it's not really about fear, and it's not really about pain tolerance. I have a very high pain tolerance- I'm a marathon runner and long distance swimmer, and all around tough person. But I think the benefits to an epidural free birth are not significant enough to warrant my going through that pain. I understand that that is NOT what MDC condones, and I completely respect that and have no desire to change anyone's mind or debate in any way. But I just wanted to tell you that as likely as not she just disagrees with you- it's not really always that people need to be educated out of their misinformation and irrational fears.

HTH, sorry again if it's misplaced.


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## velouria (Feb 17, 2005)

Personally, I think a lot of people might not know any different. They may not know anyone who went without one. Or they may think, "Why not?"

I'd done a lot of research beforehand and decided that I did NOT want an epidural. The risks weren't worth it to me UNLESS 1) I was having a long labor and needed a rest, or 2) I was having a hard time coping with the pain.

I was induced with Pitocin because my water broke but labor didn't begin on its own. I didn't *need* an epidural. Quite honestly, I did not find contractions painful. Intense? Absolutely! But not "painful". Actually pushing the baby out through my narrow pelvis hurt like HELL, though. I seriously thought I was going to die. Transition wouldn't have been uncomfortable had it not been for the unbearable rectal pressure.

*Contractions*, though, were a piece of cake. They weren't nearly as painful as intestinal cramps from food poisoning, viral gastroenteritis, a migraine headache, or even a charley horse. For me, it was more like a vise-like tightening sensation.

Having been terrified of childbirth since I could remember, this realization was pretty shocking to me.


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## njbeachgirl (Oct 8, 2006)

I think a lot of people think it's "safe" and "doesn't get to the baby" as well.


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## holly6737 (Dec 21, 2006)

I planned to have one with my first birth. My husband actually wanted me to go natural. I told him "Are you kidding? Don't you know how much it hurts?" I had never actually seen anyone give birth, other than TV. So, yes, I was scared.

My second birth was a homebirth, so no epidurals there!


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## SublimeBirthGirl (Sep 9, 2005)

IMO it's mostly fear. Why else would someone decide on medication with risks for them and their babies without ever having any idea what labor would even feel like? They've been conditioned to fear the agonizing pain of labor (said tongue in cheek).


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## avasmomleigh (Apr 21, 2006)

for me it was fear of pain. Deep down I was so scared of the unknown and didn't really believe it would ever end that I didn't know how to cope with any of it. I had DH and my mom for support, though in reality they were zero support for me, and added to my stress and worry. I was SOOO tired by the time I went into labor, and I was feeeling very worried about the length of time the pain would last. my contractions never really hurt like I expected, but I would tense up for each one, just waiting for it to happen. This time, I am hoping for better mw support, not looking for DH to remember a dang thing except to be physically present with a hopefully less terrified look on his face, and I am trying to get some some supportive friends to talk to me on the phone to give me encouragement (I don't live near family/friends-just moved). This time I would like to skip the epidural, though I had no major problems with it last time.


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## tsume (Jun 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Red Sonja* 
Before I got pregnant with DS I knew I wanted an epidural. I don't like pain, have an extremely low pain tolerance and never knew anyone who didn't get one. Everyone I had met had an epidural during childbirth, so I never considered otherwise.

I changed my mind during pregnancy and am now happily planning my 3rd Hypnobabies birth. My dislike of needles won out.

This is pretty close to my story. minus the hypnobabies part. And we knew someone who had a homebirth while pregnant with our first and we thought that was weeeeeird! We've had 2 homebirths since.









Our first was a hospital birth and my fear of needles and being confined to a bed scared the poop out of me. Before I was pregnant I w ouldn't have minded being totally knocked out and wake up to a baby.


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## maxmama (May 5, 2006)

Of my patients who plan epidurals in advance, a fair number have a history of sexual abuse/assault, and want to remove potential trigger from their memories of their child's birth.

Personally, I don't care who gets one or why. It's not my birth. If they want a block, fine. If they don't want one, fine. Their call.


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## QueenOfThePride (May 26, 2005)

I had a traumatic natural birth 4 months ago. If I ever get pregnant again, I would seriously consider an epidural.


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## LotusBirthMama (Jun 25, 2005)

I planned a homebirth with DD, transfered after 3 days of hard labor. In the car on the way to the hospital I told DH, "Don't let me get an epi...I don't want one...". Yeah. That lasted until I got on the labor floor and then begged for one.









With DS2, I knew he was going to be a hospital birth b/c my husband was injured right before the birth and couldn't really support me during what had been a planned UC. I planned to get the epi right away and I did. It was a great birth, great delivery and I have no regrets.

My thinking is this. If I am in the hospital next time, I will again get the epi. If we home birth, I obviously won't. For me, just knowing the drugs are there makes it worse to labor w/o them.


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

I had a horrendously painful NCB with my first. While I've decided to go natural again (planning a homebirth), I can fully understand why a different woman in my position would opt to sign up for an epidural. The pain was so bad and lasted so long I ended up with mild PTSD. I'm not looking forward to giving birth again and I did not enjoy the NCB.


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## kate3 (May 4, 2007)

I was dead set against them: dangerous, didn't want want anyone near my spine, what if something goes wrong, etc.

Then I actually experienced labor. Very intense, very quick, no break in between contractions. All 3 of my labors were like that. I walked around at 3-4cm for weeks and when labor started there was no rest.

I am so thankful that I had the option for an epidural and there was no pressure from anyone to go either way. It was the best decision I made. I had a great doc; I was comfortable but not numb. I could feel and move my legs, and as soon as it was pulled I was up and about.


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## Stace (Jan 4, 2007)

I left the option open for myself. I decided I'd get one if I felt like it, and wouldn't if I was doing ok. I was in horrible back labor and was given pit on top of that. I toughed it out as long as I could, but I was getting NO break between contractions, the nurses were ticking me off because they couldn't position the monitors correctly and thus weren't seeing just how strong the contractions were, and I'd had enough. I was much calmer after I had the epi. It also allowed me to remain awake when I ended up with a c-section (fetal distress) so I was able to see my son immediately.

I'm keeping the same mentality for this one. I'll get one if I feel I need it, and won't if I don't. I have a pretty low pain tolerance so I'm not going to delude myself into thinking I'd refuse one under any circumstances, but I'm also not enough of a wuss to automatically say that I WILL get one, ya know?


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## maxmama (May 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Stace* 
the nurses were ticking me off because they couldn't position the monitors correctly and thus weren't seeing just how strong the contractions were,

Just want to clarify that regardless of how well-placed an external monitor is, it will not indicate strength of contractions. Palpation and an IUPC indicate strength.

Carry on.


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## Mamabeakley (Jul 9, 2004)

I read this thread b/c this is what my SIL is saying and, as a 2x homebirther who felt no need for an epi either time with pretty serious labor pain, it kinda bothers me. However, I think it's a good reminder that anything I feel strongly about, and have strong values about, someone else may feel equally strongly about and have equally strong values about, in the completely opposite direction.

I think it really bothers me if people have an epi just because that's what everybody does or because someone pressures them into it. I will be bothered if SIL has one that has a negative impact on my niece/nephew & brother's birth experience. But I won't be bothered by her choosing one if I get the feeling after talking with her more than she's choosing it because of strong feelings and values she holds sincerely.


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## dinahx (Sep 17, 2005)

I agree that alot of it is our culture. I've never been on a hospital tour where someone doesn't make some joke like "can I get my epidural now?"


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## danotoyou2 (Jan 19, 2007)

I'm really surprised by how many people say it's because they fear the pain... but have never gone through it. It doesn't hurt for everyone! And, from what I understand, every birth is different. Some people have painful first births, and go on to have painless second births (and sometimes, painful third births!).

I don't see the sense in getting one before you even know if it's painful. I even had a pitocin augmented labor (and the pit was maxed out) where I didn't feel the need for drugs. It just didn't hurt that much. Intense, oh yeah. But not painful. Then I went on to have a 3 day labor for a homebirth; again, intense but not at all painful.

There are so many risks... not the least of which is distress to the baby, an "epidural fever" and an increased risk of ending in a cesarean. But I guess most people aren't informed of those risks, or think it won't happen to them.


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## BetsyS (Nov 8, 2004)

Before labor, I kind of decided that I wasn't going to say no to myself if I wanted an epidural. If I did fine without it, great. If I wanted one, I would get it.

Turns out, it didn't work, but that's another story. We removed it, I labored many more hours, then it was replaced because I wanted it in case I needed a c-section. I wanted to be awake for the section.

I hear what you're saying, though. I have a friend that is all about NCB. All about it. She's done it twice, and is pregnant with her third. But she HATES breastfeeding and weans at like 11 months. I do NOT get this. AT ALL. I think it's insane. For me, I was all about an epidural, but I am still breastfeeding at 15 months with no intention of quitting. I love the breastfeeding part of having a baby. NCB? Not so much. Everyone has different priorities.


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## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *danotoyou2* 
I'm really surprised by how many people say it's because they fear the pain... but have never gone through it. It doesn't hurt for everyone! And, from what I understand, every birth is different. Some people have painful first births, and go on to have painless second births (and sometimes, painful third births!).

I don't see the sense in getting one before you even know if it's painful. I even had a pitocin augmented labor (and the pit was maxed out) where I didn't feel the need for drugs. It just didn't hurt that much. Intense, oh yeah. But not painful. Then I went on to have a 3 day labor for a homebirth; again, intense but not at all painful.

There are so many risks... not the least of which is distress to the baby, an "epidural fever" and an increased risk of ending in a cesarean. But I guess most people aren't informed of those risks, or think it won't happen to them.


It's not that I was frightened of the pain-but I don't like pain. Why would I go thru that if I didn't have to? My friend who had an epi had pics of herself during labour, sitting up in bed smiling and eating a burger. I have no pics of me in labour, but believe me, I was not smiling, eating & talking to my family. I was NOT a pretty sight! My s-i-l. who had an epi with each of her kids, came in to see me during labour. She thought we'd sit & look at magazines, and chill. Yeah, that would actually be my ideal labour.

I have more trouble understanding why someone whould't want one than why they would. I don't even understand why I'd consider not even trying to get one if I ever have a vbac.

If I did get an epi, I'd want it early on-they put my spinal in during a contraction, and it was beyond awful. Took a dr. and 2 nurses to hold me down. I never want to go thru that again. (In case anyone missed my ealier post, I eneded up with a c-section after all that, hence the spinal-yep, horrendous labour pain with no epi, and I needed a c-section anyhow))


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## Dov'sMom (Jan 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velouria* 
Personally, I think a lot of people might not know any different. They may not know anyone who went without one. Or they may think, "Why not?"

I'd done a lot of research beforehand and decided that I did NOT want an epidural. The risks weren't worth it to me UNLESS 1) I was having a long labor and needed a rest, or 2) I was having a hard time coping with the pain.

I was induced with Pitocin because my water broke but labor didn't begin on its own. I didn't *need* an epidural. Quite honestly, I did not find contractions painful. Intense? Absolutely! But not "painful". Actually pushing the baby out through my narrow pelvis hurt like HELL, though. I seriously thought I was going to die. Transition wouldn't have been uncomfortable had it not been for the unbearable rectal pressure.

*Contractions*, though, were a piece of cake. They weren't nearly as painful as intestinal cramps from food poisoning, viral gastroenteritis, a migraine headache, or even a charley horse. For me, it was more like a vise-like tightening sensation.

Having been terrified of childbirth since I could remember, this realization was pretty shocking to me.

Well, I had the opposite experience. Contractions hurt like hell and pushing was a piece of cake in comparison. So you never know....

I have a very high pain tolerance, and yet I was screaming through my contractions twoard the end. I was barely aware of the tightening sensation because of the incredible pain. I know baby was face up as of the NST I had several days before, and m/w confirmed that he was still that way when I got to the hospital after 48 hours of labor and with contractions so painful I couldn't lie down for them to place the monitor. He came out face down, and I am positive that he turned just as I began to push, because the difference between my pushing contractions and the whole prior ordeal was so tremendous.


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## MidwifeErika (Jun 30, 2005)

I planned on it for DD1 from early pregnancy. It wasnt a fear based decision. I felt like I was well educated on it and felt there were no real risks, so I figured why would I want to go through pain if I could have it relieved with no risks?

I realized with future pregnancies that "well educated" depends on what it is that you read. I changed my mind about risks and decided to be at home for any future births.


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## elspethshimon (Nov 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lanamommyphd07* 
I would bet that these folks also take medication during menstruation to kill the pain too.









I take an Aleve as soon as my period hits, even if my cramps haven't started. I don't have the luxury of doing "natural" pain management for four days every month when I need to work.







:

That said, most women I know who have epidurals didn't even really consider an unmedicated birth. I think the epidural and it's effects have become accepted as the normal course of things, which is depressing.

For myself, I'm just terrified of anything being shot into my spine.


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UrbanCrunchyMama* 
One of my husband's friends *just knew* she wanted an epidural. She decided this before her son's birth, and followed through with that plan.

If you made the same decision before one of your children's births, how and why did you come to that decision?

I'm just trying to understand where she's coming from.

I think some women can sense intuitively that their births will be especially painful. I think epidurals should be just one of many options available to women who need pain management... they are not inherently evil, and many women do have good experiences with them (I have). But unfortunately many women never even consider other alternatives, and/ or get the epidurals way too early in labor.


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lanamommyphd07* 
I didn't have one, but I've heard over and over from friends that they plan to dilate to x-cm, then get the epidural. I always ask why, and they typically say they're afraid of the pain. So my guess is it's fear-driven. I would bet that these folks also take medication during menstruation to kill the pain too.

As someone who had a traumatically painful birth, I can assure you that it has little or nothing to do with pain threshold or being "fear-driven." Some births are just brutal. I got through 3 unmedicated births before my trauma with little problem, so I've got a decent pain threshold and was actually _incredibly_ confident going into my traumatic birth.


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## blueridgewoman (Nov 19, 2001)

I planned on a medication free birth. But then I labored for 50 hours with contractions 2 minutes apart, lasting five minutes and they were so bad that I couldn't talk through them. I had horrible, horrible back labor, and after being in labor for more than two days, I couldn't take anymore. I was exhausted and I didn't even feel human. Plus, my labor had stalled and I was only at 5cm, where I'd been for five hours.

Oh and for the record, I have an incredibly high pain threshold.









The epi allowed me to get a breather. I was able to enjoy the experience and I was able to regroup and rest a little before my daughter was born. I think I was able to enjoy her and bond with her more than if I'd stayed in pain. I progressed much faster after the epi too since I was more relaxed, was able to eat and drink a bit, and wasn't tensing up.

The actual epi itself was wonderful-- I had a very sweet, helpful doctor and she did it just enough so that I could still feel my legs and feel pressure from each contraction. I pushed in a squatting position and ended up delivering my dd on hands and knees, which was great.


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## UrbanCrunchyMama (Aug 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShareBear* 
I didn't get epidurals with my two, but can I share the experience of a friend? She had her first with no epidural but I suspect only under pressure from her very crunchy MIL. The whole experience wasn't great because the labor was very long, she was exhausted, the baby needed extra care at birth, breastfeeding was a nightmare, etc.

With her second, she decided to get an epidural because her own mother, who's a very mainstream pediatrics nurse, had convinced her that they were "perfectly safe," and "why suffer through it if you don't have to," and after all she had had such a tough experience with her first baby. As it turned out, she had a very quick labor, two hours from first twinge to baby out, and it was too late for an epidural by the time she got to the hospital.

I wonder if your friend had a difficult birth the first time around because her course of actions did not come from her (but from someone outside of her). If she wasn't convinced going drug-free was the way to go, I can't imagine it would bode well for the birth.

It's an interesting twist of fate that she wasn't able to get her epidural the second time around, almost if life was saying,"You really can do this."


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## UrbanCrunchyMama (Aug 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angelcat* 
Um, labour hurts, and I don't like pain..

Now that I've given birth once (and drug-free), I would be MUCH more scared of the needle in my spine (and it's possible short-term and long-term side effects) than the intensity of labor.

But that's just my experience, and I know it doesn't represent everyone else's.


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## Stace (Jan 4, 2007)

I'm jealous of all of these people that were allowed to eat after having an epi. I was still only allowed to have water. I was starving!!







:


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## UrbanCrunchyMama (Aug 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmama8824* 
it's mainly because they are scared of what it will feel like and would rather not endure the pain...

But do they know that the pain has a purpose? And that some people don't even experience labor or birth as pain?


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## UrbanCrunchyMama (Aug 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DBZ* 
I planned to go natural with my first but I ended up being induced and it was hell.

Thankfully, with my third I learned that labor is nothing like my first.

Yeah, I've heard that Pit can be pretty nasty.

The more I read MDC, the more worried I become about my next birth (whenever that's gonna be). My first birth was so quick and not painful, so learning that subsequent births can actually more difficult is not reassuring.


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## UrbanCrunchyMama (Aug 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Red Sonja* 
I changed my mind during pregnancy and am now happily planning my 3rd Hypnobabies birth. My dislike of needles won out.

What was your lightbulb moment? What got you to re-think your decision?


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## UrbanCrunchyMama (Aug 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pitter_patter* 
I had a saddle block because I *wanted* one.

Saddle block? Never heard of that term. What is it?


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

I was very strongly against having an epidural. I did Hypnobabies and had a Hypnobabies-trained doula.

My labor was not pain-free, in fact the pain was excruciating, back labor, you know the drill







. But, I was coping w/ it pretty well with my HB techniques and if I had been able to get to transition and then give birth within the first 10 hours I was at the hospital, I definitely could have done it without an epidural.

However, when I got to 7cm, I stopped dilating. Was it b/c I was in a hospital? Just what my body was doing? Baby not in the right position? I had the urge to push but was definitely not dilated enough to push. After a few hours like that, and NO progress on dilation (it had been 8 hours since I had dilated a cm), I made the decision, with the support of my doula who I trusted, to get an epi. It was not for the pain so much as the total exhaustion and also in hopes that somehow the epidural would cause a change, allow me to dilate. My doula said that epidurals are really made for cases like this, and that sometimes removing the pain can cause the mother to relax enough that the baby can move into a better position and dilation can resume.

It seemed to "work", in that I did dilate from 7 to 10 after the epi, in about 4 hours, and pushed Nora out in just a few pushes.

I sorta wonder if, even though I was using Hypnobabies relaxation techniques (can't say that I was truly in hypnosis), I really just could not "let" my cervix dilate, due to the pain + the need to resist the urge to push? It was very stressful.

So, as far as the labor goes, I am glad I got the epidural, for my particular labor. I also have a mild fear of needles but it really wasn't that bad. If you're getting the epi, you don't see the needle going in, and I didn't feel it, either. Besides, compared to the contractions, that was NOTHING - you could have pounded my toe with a sledgehammer at that point and I probably would either have not noticed or thanked you for taking my mind off of the labor pain!

But, I had a rough start with breastfeeding and can't help but wonder if the epidural contributed to that. I would prefer with any future children not to have an epidural, but I will not feel bad about it if I decide to get one. They carry risks, but IMO so does continuing to labor when you are totally exhausted and not progressing, but having contractions so painful and close together that any "rest" is impossible. I think if I had not had the epi I might have ended up with a C-section.


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## UrbanCrunchyMama (Aug 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hempmama* 
I don't know what choice I'll make with my third. I'm contemplating going without it, but I've got several months to decide still.

I'm not positive why you asked.

I'm sorry to hear that you experienced such pain, and in your situation, I can understand why you chose to get epidurals.

My question came from trying to understand someone else's perspective and trying to stand in someone else's shoes on this topic. If a woman is a first-time mom, I have a hard time understanding how she just knows she wants an epidural when she's never given birth before.

And in my husband's friend's case, we shared part of our pregnancy/birth journey with her, not from a fear-inducing perspective but from a "Wow, this (natural childbirth thing) far exceded our expecations on many levels, and we want to share this "secret' with others embarking on this journey." And even then, I guess, for whatever reason (which is why I'm asking all of you), the epidural was decided upon well in advance.

Little one is calling...


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## eurobin (Aug 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kate3* 
I was dead set against them: dangerous, didn't want want anyone near my spine, what if something goes wrong, etc.

Then I actually experienced labor. Very intense, very quick, no break in between contractions. All 3 of my labors were like that. I walked around at 3-4cm for weeks and when labor started there was no rest.

I am so thankful that I had the option for an epidural and there was no pressure from anyone to go either way. It was the best decision I made. I had a great doc; I was comfortable but not numb. I could feel and move my legs, and as soon as it was pulled I was up and about.

Ditto this, except I only have one child. I will still go into any subsequent labors with the intention of delivering unmedicated, but if the ctx are right on top of each other so that I can't even think, I'm not opposed to getting another epidural.


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## UrbanCrunchyMama (Aug 7, 2007)

hempmama said:


> I'm not positive why you askedQUOTE]
> 
> OK, I'm back to finish my thought.
> 
> ...


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## UrbanCrunchyMama (Aug 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velouria* 
Quite honestly, I did not find contractions painful. Intense? Absolutely! But not "painful".

Me neither. I was waiting for it to get REALLY bad. I figured if women were pretty routinely asking for an epi, then it MUST be BAD.







:

Well, it never got REALLY bad, and I was ready to push in our bathroom at home. But I held our daughter in until we arrived at the hospital and I was given "permission" to push. That's why I'm staying home next time.


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## UrbanCrunchyMama (Aug 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *holly6737* 
My second birth was a homebirth, so no epidurals there!









Same question to you...what was your lightbulb moment? How and why did you explore natural birth?


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## UrbanCrunchyMama (Aug 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *avasmomleigh* 
This time, I am hoping for better mw support, not looking for DH to remember a dang thing except to be physically present with a hopefully less terrified look on his face, and I am trying to get some some supportive friends to talk to me on the phone to give me encouragement (I don't live near family/friends-just moved).

In my reflections about our pregnancy and birth process, I've underestimated (or at least, didn't give enough thought about) our birth support team. Without truly supportive people, it'd sure make the experience more difficult to navigate. Best to you in rounding up your support network.


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## UrbanCrunchyMama (Aug 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maxmama* 
Of my patients who plan epidurals in advance, a fair number have a history of sexual abuse/assault, and want to remove potential trigger from their memories of their child's birth.

Personally, I don't care who gets one or why. It's not my birth. If they want a block, fine. If they don't want one, fine. Their call.

I understand that any emotional trauma can thwart progress in labor; however (pardon my ignorance), is there an especially strong link between sexual assault/abuse and birth? I'm assuming you mean that the abuse did NOT result in the pregnancy, but that the history of abuse may present itself in unfavorable ways in birth? In what ways?


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## UrbanCrunchyMama (Aug 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *QueenOfThePride* 
I had a traumatic natural birth 4 months ago. If I ever get pregnant again, I would seriously consider an epidural.


I'm sorry.

In your case, however, you're speaking from first-hand experience, unlike first-time mamas.


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## UrbanCrunchyMama (Aug 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LotusBirthMama* 
My thinking is this. If I am in the hospital next time, I will again get the epi. If we home birth, I obviously won't. For me, just knowing the drugs are there makes it worse to labor w/o them.

It's great to hear that sometimes things don't take a turn for the worst after the epi.

The c-section rate amongst our friends (who have birthed at different hospitals in California) is 68%. From an outsider's perspective, it seems many of those surgeries were a result of the domino effect of medicalized birth.


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## UrbanCrunchyMama (Aug 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Romana9+2* 
I had a horrendously painful NCB with my first. While I've decided to go natural again (planning a homebirth), I can fully understand why a different woman in my position would opt to sign up for an epidural. The pain was so bad and lasted so long I ended up with mild PTSD. I'm not looking forward to giving birth again and I did not enjoy the NCB.

You have responded to my other posts before, and I'm surprised to hear that you had such difficult natural births (because you come across as such a strong advocate). What keeps you on the NCB path?


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## MonP'titBoudain (Nov 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UrbanCrunchyMama* 
is there an especially strong link between sexual assault/abuse and birth? I'm assuming you mean that the abuse did NOT result in the pregnancy, but that the history of abuse may present itself in unfavorable ways in birth? In what ways?

My understanding (from women very close to me) is that it often has more to do with having a bunch of people invading you, literally. For many abuse survivors merely going to the GYN for a routine checkup can become a trigger. Add to that the usual hospital birthing experience of complete loss of self and sense of control and I think you've got an obvious recipe for serious triggers. Maybe having the epi allows the mind to remain clear and more able to consciouly process what is going on? Or just allows a sense of retained control.

I appreciate your asking this question sincerely. It is something I have often wondered myself.


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## UrbanCrunchyMama (Aug 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blueridgewoman* 
The actual epi itself was wonderful-- I had a very sweet, helpful doctor and she did it just enough so that I could still feel my legs and feel pressure from each contraction. I pushed in a squatting position and ended up delivering my dd on hands and knees, which was great.

That's amazing! I didn't even know this was possible. Every woman who gets an epidural should experience this level of expertise and care. It would surely cut down on interventions, IMO.


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## danotoyou2 (Jan 19, 2007)

For some, the intense pressure in the pelvic region, as well as any pain that is present, can trigger memories of rape. I also think that it has something to do with being in "labor land" where you go into a different part of yourself to deal with contractions. For me, getting drunk can trigger memories, because I 'let go' and those thoughts surface. But I can definitely understand how labor would do it for other women.


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## UrbanCrunchyMama (Aug 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Stace* 
I'm jealous of all of these people that were allowed to eat after having an epi. I was still only allowed to have water. I was starving!!







:










I've been waiting for someone to use that smiley!


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## maxmama (May 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UrbanCrunchyMama* 
I understand that any emotional trauma can thwart progress in labor; however (pardon my ignorance), is there an especially strong link between sexual assault/abuse and birth? I'm assuming you mean that the abuse did NOT result in the pregnancy, but that the history of abuse may present itself in unfavorable ways in birth? In what ways?

A lot of survivors have strong feelings about birth/labor, partly because of the loss of control (labor is a lot of things, but controllable isn't one of them) and partly because of so much intense sensation focused in the vagina. This isn't true of every survivor, of course, but history of sexual assault/abuse can absolutely be an issue in pregnancy and birth. Some survivors prefer to have an epidural so they can dissociate from the intense bodywork of labor/birth.

Penny Simkin has written an excellent book on labor support for survivors, and I think anyone working with birthing women should read it.


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## brackin (Sep 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BetsyS* 
I hear what you're saying, though. I have a friend that is all about NCB. All about it. She's done it twice, and is pregnant with her third. But she HATES breastfeeding and weans at like 11 months. I do NOT get this. AT ALL. I think it's insane. For me, I was all about an epidural, but I am still breastfeeding at 15 months with no intention of quitting. I love the breastfeeding part of having a baby. NCB? Not so much. Everyone has different priorities.









This is interesting to me, too...I have friends and acquaintances who are huge NCB proponents, but also practice CIO!! What, you're super-concerned about the baby during labor, but once she's born, set her aside?







:


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## danotoyou2 (Jan 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angelcat* 
It's not that I was frightened of the pain-but I don't like pain. Why would I go thru that if I didn't have to?

What I meant was that it doesn't ALWAYS hurt for women. In your case, you went through enough labor to know that this particular birth was a painful one for you. It doesn't mean that another woman would have a painful first birth, or even that your next birth will be painful.

I just don't see the sense in planning for it to be painful. I can certainly understand having a plan B for if it IS painful, but not planning on it being painful... Unless, of course, a woman has only ever heard of painful labors and what she sees on TV.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angelcat* 
I have more trouble understanding why someone whould't want one than why they would. I don't even understand why I'd consider not even trying to get one if I ever have a vbac.

For one, the possible complications are enough for me to never get an epidural. Not to mention the idea of a needle in my spine. But the complications to me and the baby are just not worth the risk. No intervention is without risk, and for me, it doesn't seem worthwhile.

And, the part of natural labor that isn't talked about... the hormones! OMG, it's 100 times better than sex. Henci Goer talks about this in her book, explaining that the hormones are blocked in a medicated birth. And wow, I wouldn't miss that for the world. It's the reason I want to give birth again.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *angelcat* 
If I did get an epi, I'd want it early on-they put my spinal in during a contraction, and it was beyond awful. Took a dr. and 2 nurses to hold me down. I never want to go thru that again. (In case anyone missed my ealier post, I eneded up with a c-section after all that, hence the spinal-yep, horrendous labour pain with no epi, and I needed a c-section anyhow))

I had 20 hours in the hospital with pitocin augmented labor and magnesium sulfate... and still ended up with a cesarean. For me, the labor was the best part. I was so glad to have been able to labor for so long, to give my baby the hormones he needed for a safe arrival. Not to mention the fact that I found labor fun and exhilarating. I guess it all depends on your perspective.


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## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *danotoyou2* 
What I meant was that it doesn't ALWAYS hurt for women. In your case, you went through enough labor to know that this particular birth was a painful one for you. It doesn't mean that another woman would have a painful first birth, or even that your next birth will be painful.

I just don't see the sense in planning for it to be painful. I can certainly understand having a plan B for if it IS painful, but not planning on it being painful... Unless, of course, a woman has only ever heard of painful labors and what she sees on TV.

For one, the possible complications are enough for me to never get an epidural. Not to mention the idea of a needle in my spine. But the complications to me and the baby are just not worth the risk. No intervention is without risk, and for me, it doesn't seem worthwhile.

And, the part of natural labor that isn't talked about... the hormones! OMG, it's 100 times better than sex. Henci Goer talks about this in her book, explaining that the hormones are blocked in a medicated birth. And wow, I wouldn't miss that for the world. It's the reason I want to give birth again.









I had 20 hours in the hospital with pitocin augmented labor and magnesium sulfate... and still ended up with a cesarean. For me, the labor was the best part. I was so glad to have been able to labor for so long, to give my baby the hormones he needed for a safe arrival. Not to mention the fact that I found labor fun and exhilarating. I guess it all depends on your perspective.


In the event I have another child, and decide to vbac, I *wouldn't* plan on an epidural. I just think I'd be nuts not to, but I still wouldn't. There was something...almost empowering? about not having one.

For me, labour was aboslutely nothing like sex, and I'm glad. It would just weird for me if it was. I guess each to their own.

My dr. did say labour was good for the baby, even if I did end up with a c-section, which was why I didn't schedule one even though I am pretty sure I could have. BUt I tend to get a little hostile when women who've never had a c-section hear I had opne, and say I"m lucky, cause I didn't go thru labour. Um yeah, I did, and the c-section recovery was worse than labour!


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

I get really sick of the "you're in pain from labor because you were sexually abused" line, especially when midwives use it (I've read it in more than one book by MWs). Wow, how presumptuous. Maybe an individual mother who was sexually abused can draw this link for *herself*, but it was not the reason in my case. I was sexually abused and got through 3 unmedicated births just fine. Some births are more painful than others. Can I spell it out any more clearly? You can sway circumstances to or away from your favor to a certain degree, but it's the luck of the draw ultimately, even if you are super prepared, relaxed, made great choices, surround yourself with a good environment, etc..


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

ITA that labour can be very, very painful. I am not a sexual abuse survivor and damn it hurt. For a long long time. Unimaginable pain. I've heard the line that it only hurts if you're afraid and damn, I resent that. As though if only I were more 'enlightened' it would have been easier. Right.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *danotoyou2* 
And, the part of natural labor that isn't talked about... the hormones! OMG, it's 100 times better than sex. Henci Goer talks about this in her book, explaining that the hormones are blocked in a medicated birth. And wow, I wouldn't miss that for the world. It's the reason I want to give birth again.









Can you explain this more? I've never heard this, but I know there was SOMETHING in my natural birth that made me higher than I have ever been in my life, once the baby came. And I was high for days and days. What a way to greet motherhood and a new child. That is why I want to give birth naturally again.


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## MyBoysBlue (Apr 27, 2007)

I remember being on a high after both my babies were born but I wouldn't say it was better than sex but thats JMO. I just felt like I drank too much coffee and was a bit wired.

After my first son I didn't sleep for more than a short nap here and there for 36 hours after he was born. I was just so wide awake.

After my second son I slept just hours after his birth. It was so quick (25min) I think i didn't get as much of a hormone boost but I was still feeling great the next day.


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## poisonedpenny (Dec 19, 2007)

I know I want an epidural. This is my first baby, and I've already decided.

1) I don't deal well with pain. I cry. I feel fusterated. I feel humiliated. I feel weak.

2) I've had Braxton-Hicks contractions that have hurt like hell, have put me to tears, and where I was unable to talk or even hear what my husband was saying to me.

3) As a rape survivor I know I'm going to have to deal with things that make me think of that time like unknown people staring at my genitals, people other than my husband putting their hands in intimate places, and several others. Pain "down there" is something that immediately triggers me to get panicky, scared, and sometimes irrational. (And now that I've read this thread I'm also scared of the loss of control. That could definately screw me up.) That's not something that I'm willing to even consider during a moment so precious as bringing life into the world.

All in all I want my birth to be a happy joyful occasion, and I don't believe I would be able to do that without the aid of an epidural.


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## maxmama (May 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meowee* 
I get really sick of the "you're in pain from labor because you were sexually abused" line, especially when midwives use it (I've read it in more than one book by MWs).

Whoa here. I didn't say that this was true for all survivors. But of the patients I've had come in planning an early epidural, a large proportion of them were survivors.


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## felix23 (Nov 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *brackin* 







This is interesting to me, too...I have friends and acquaintances who are huge NCB proponents, but also practice CIO!! What, you're super-concerned about the baby during labor, but once she's born, set her aside?







:

I used to work with a lady that had un-medicated homebirths, but then started Ferberizing her babies at 4 months old.







She would go around telling people that having a medicated birth was child-abuse, but then would get super pissed when people criticized CIO.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Can you explain this more? I've never heard this, but I know there was SOMETHING in my natural birth that made me higher than I have ever been in my life, once the baby came. And I was high for days and days. What a way to greet motherhood and a new child. That is why I want to give birth naturally again.


It's the most amazing feeling, IME







So _completely_ empowering and exhiliarting. I didn't get that with my Pit/epidural/every other intervention birth. He and I truly missed out on something extremely important, and I didn't realize what we had lost until I had experienced a physiologically normal birth.

Here's one of my favorite birth articles that explains the natural process. HTH


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## AlwaysByMySide (May 4, 2007)

I haven't read all four pages of posts, just answering the initial question.

With my first two, I knew I was going to be having an epidural. Because they were both also inductions, we had them send in the anesthesiologist early on, so I could have all of the paperwork signed before they needed to actually put it in. With my first, my midwife wasn't going to be awake and in the hospital in the beginning stages of my induction, so she pre-approved the epidural at any stage of dilation. (Meaning I didn't have to be X centimeters dilated to get the epi; I could have it whenever I wanted.)

Honestly, natural childbirth (i.e. going into labor on my own, doing it without drugs, etc.) seemed like such a "martyr" thing to me to do. Why would you put yourself through that if you didn't need to? It's what happens when the mainstream media shoves that down your throat.

I am planning this birth in a birthing center, drug free. As soon as I say that to people, their initial reaction is usually, "WHY?!" And, admittedly, that was always my response when pregnant women would tell ME that they weren't getting an epidural.

They very rarely put a "mainstream looking" mom on The Baby Story having a baby at home/in a birthing center with no drugs. Natural childbirth is not presented in the media (and let's be honest; in my generation - the 20-somethings - we're a media-driving generation) as what is "normal".


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## danotoyou2 (Jan 19, 2007)

Sorry, I should have clarified the "better than sex hormones."









It's not DURING labor, but after the baby is born (and during crowning, but I was too intent on pushing to really notice it). The body is flooded with hormones that are similar to the effects after an orgasm... but, about 100 times the amount of those hormones. It's the same as a 'runner's high' (but you don't get a baby at the end with running







)

It's basically the body's way of coping with any pain that might set in after the baby is out. You don't notice any pain because you're on this incredible high. It also helps with bonding with the baby.

For me, the high lasted about 3 or 4 days. The first few hours were amazing, I felt like I could climb a mountain! My MW even commented that most women aren't so "energized" after a long labor, but I felt great. Those hormones were working great for me.

I'm sorry that I don't have time to look up the particular reasons for why those hormones are blocked during a medicated book, but it IS in Henci Goer's Thinking Woman's Guide to a Better Birth. So, all I can say is that I've read that it is blocked during a medicated birth... and I wouldn't trade that high for all the medication in the world.


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## Redifer (Nov 25, 2006)

I signed on with an epi with my first because my mom told me to. She had both my sister and I with no drugs, and told me to get the epidural, that it "wasn't worth it".

Of course, I listened to my mom. Even though at the time, I didn't feel I needed it. I got the epi a whopping hour before my daughter was born, and wasn't even in anything close to pain. Just minorly annoyed with the contractions.

Now, I feel cheated, and on top of that, I feel like my mom didn't trust my ability to handle it.


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## danotoyou2 (Jan 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Redifer* 
I signed on with an epi with my first because my mom told me to. She had both my sister and I with no drugs, and told me to get the epidural, that it "wasn't worth it".

My mom also did this... when I was about 9 months pregnant. All growing up she'd told me that having a baby wasn't a big deal, and that having me (her 4th) was a piece of cake because she'd done lamaze classes. Then, she watched a show on birth (one of those "Birth Day" or something shows) and said she forgot how awful it was, and I should just "get the drugs." I felt really betrayed by her because of that. It was a little late in the game to be springing any new developments on me, like "it hurts like an SOB," to possibly scare me. As it was, I'm now able to go on and on about how birth is so cool and I had fun with it.


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## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

I didn't have a birth high. I had a completely NCB, no drugs, no episiotomy, etc. No birth high. I got scammed!









(Still hoping for one for next time . . . .)

Fortunately for me, my mom had non-epidural births - she was told she couldn't have one due to a prior back injury. When my brother was born, she had pitocin. When I was born, nothing (she showed up at 10). Her main line was that it was not a big deal and that I'd be fine. I think my NCB was tougher than hers!

She also had Leboyer births and liked the dim lights, calm voices, warm bath and slow transition for baby aspects of that kind of birth.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia* 
It's the most amazing feeling, IME







So _completely_ empowering and exhiliarting. I didn't get that with my Pit/epidural/every other intervention birth. He and I truly missed out on something extremely important, and I didn't realize what we had lost until I had experienced a physiologically normal birth.

Here's one of my favorite birth articles that explains the natural process. HTH









Thank you for that!

I mean, my labour really really did hurt. A lot. I had serious pain for probably... 28 hours? A long arsed bloody time. I got transferred to hospital for stalled labour and was begging for the epi, and anything else they would give me in the interim. But the nitrous oxide in my room didn't work and the epi didn't come til I was 9 cm, and by then I was able to refuse it. For awhile there though I was trying to figure out how to suicide it was so shocking.

But man... was it worth it. For me, honestly it was. I hope I can endure again for that reason. Well I hope it's not so hard next time but if it is I hope I can hold out. When the baby came, all the pain disappeared and I was so so incredibly high... like that 'I am wide open and in love with everything' feeling you get on MDMA, but ten times more intense. I'd never seen anyone so beautiful as my baby, I was instantly in love with her. She was amazing and so familiar to me already.

When they released us from the hospital the next morning the tag on her didn't match the number it should have, and they tried to calm me thinking I would be freaking out that someone switched my baby. But I knew her already and a mismatched number seemed so stupid, like if my best friend was wearing the wrong number i would still know who it was, yk? By contrast my friend who had an epi said there was no way she could pick her baby out of a lineup, and I don't know if that is why but it feels true to me that there is *something* amazing about natural birth.

After doing that, I felt incredibly powerful, fully confident in my mothering abilities (what was basic infant care after *that*, yk??) and in LOVE with my baby immediately. I would say I was totally stoned for about 5 days, didn't need much sleep, time passed without notice, it was like those old cartoons of the old hospital where someone drops a bottle of ether and everyone is just floating around. Anyone remember those? Nothing hurt (like my stitches etc), I was just soaring, with the babe. Amazing.

I would do it again for that reason alone really. I don't worry too much about epi side effects myself, or about possible effects on the baby, and I think it is really fine and good for a mama to not feel she has to endure agonizing pain as a gift to the baby during birth, etc. But man, the high, and meeting my infant in that space, it was unreal.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Romana9+2* 







I didn't have a birth high. I had a completely NCB, no drugs, no episiotomy, etc. No birth high. I got scammed!









(Still hoping for one for next time . . . .)

x-posted, sorry. I had the screen open for a long time. I think it is different for everyone, and that's why judgment about women's choices in birth really feels out of place to me. 'Everyone gets super stoned' is about as accurate as 'you felt pain because you weren't enlightened enough.' I think it's really good to talk about personal experiences with natural birth, but it is important to remember our experiences do not necessarily mean anything about how other women will experience birth.


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## LemonPie (Sep 18, 2006)

Quote:

I remember being on a high after both my babies were born but I wouldn't say it was better than sex but thats JMO.
Me too. I got the high with my NCB, but I've described it to people as a "post-orgasm" type feeling. Just relaxed, happy and on top of the world. I remember being amazed at the amount of energy I had afterward and I suppose that was all part of it too. I felt completely wiped out after my epidural birth.

The epi definitely blocks the birth high. I attended a conference where Linda Smith spoke this summer and she talked quite a bit about that. She pointed out that if the epi doesn't work for you, or wears off, you're actually somewhat worse off than you were before because this hormone rush is blocked. It also appears to interfere with the baby's ability to deal with the birth pain, which is a rather horrifying thought to me. Interestingly, too, the birth rush hormones do hang around and get into the mothers milk--the evidence seems to indicate that it's something that actually makes the mother's milk more comforting to the baby.

Jen


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

I don't know, I had an epi and I definitely felt "high" after birth. Definitely an altered state of consciousness. Maybe it's way better if natural, but I felt it!


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## shireen (Oct 30, 2014)

When I got pregnant with my first, I thought for sure I would have an epidural; everyone around me had one, so why wouldn't I?

Well, fate had a different plan. I got to the hospital, was only 3 cm, but I had been contracting for only 45 minutes...but they were very close, very intense. They sent the anesthesiologist into the room to put in the epidural, and when I sat up, it was show time!! I couldn't sit on the bed; my baby was coming! i pushed three times and she was out! Total labor was just over 1.5 hours (first contraction to delivery)...for a first timer, that was amazing!

My second, I wanted an epidural...same scenario, I was pushing before the doctor (even the OB!!) showed up!

I didn't even bother with the 3rd, 4th and 5th; I survived it, and now wouldn't have it any other way. I handled the pain much better than I thought I would; perhaps because I wasn't aware I was ready to deliver!!

I have precipitous labors and deliveries...the decision was made for me. My labors have gotten shorter each time (if that's possible), and my water never breaks.

I loved the fact I could get up and walk so soon after the delivery; I was elated for days!


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## heidirk (Oct 19, 2007)

I'll try this again...I got x-ed out.

I chose not to get one before I got prego because my mom had two horrible experiences with them. One of them involved being post op with no pain releif, and I got the message loud and clear, no pain releif is infallible. Watching my Mom shake and wimper and beg for the nurse made a huge impression. She still has backaches, and she had the epidural fever and a headache that lasted months.

My SIL listened to the horror stories, and didn't want to hear any ncb stories.









She chose sedation during early labor, 'something to help her sleep' they said, then received an epidural after dialating to 4 cm in two hours in no pain.
But, she BELEIVED that pain was on it's way so why wait?
She desparately wanted to nurse for a year, and ended up being unable to establish breastfeeding at all. This I feel is a high price to pay for 'just in case' pain releif.

If she wants to try breastfeeding withdc#2 whenever that will be, I will have to be honest but kind. Missing that hormone cascade cost her her breastfeeding dream, not to mention a pretty awesome high!


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I don't think it necessarily follows that an epi = no breastfeeding. How could you establish that this was the case with your SIL? Many women who have epis nurse successfully, and many women who do not have epis have major bfing difficulties.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

No, but there is a risk of bf problems. My bf problems with my first were most likely caused, at least in part, by my epidural and idiot nurses.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

What?? How did I not know you had an epi with your first??

eta - Re epis and breastfeeding, I do know there is a statistical connection. However I wince when I see conclusions made about individual situations, judgments made really, when there is no way to actually know.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Yep transferred to the hospital because of exhaustion, etc, had an epidural, hemorrhage, d&c, breastfeeding problems.









The epidural was a horrible experience, and I will never have one again.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Huh. I don't think I knew that!

I transferred too because of... not exhaustion exactly, but stalled progress. Almost got one. I hope I don't get one this time!

What was horrible about it? I mean, apart from the bf troubles etc.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I had stalled out too, which wouldn't have been too bad if I had been able to eat and/or sleep.

It hurt a lot getting it. A lot. Then you have to arch your back through contractions while they put it in, which is like the worst possible position for me anyways for labour. It took many, many tries to get it in. I can show you the picture of my back with tonnes of puncture holes sometime.









Then it made me feel physically and emotionally disconnected form my labour. I hated having to look at the stupid machine to see what was going on.

Painful catheter!

Spinal headaches and backaches for weeks after.

My BP crashed and they had to turn it off.

I have done a lot of research, and I do think it helped in my situation, but it was horrible.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I got catheterized too, something was blocking my bladder and I couldn't pee for hours. Not fun.

Yeah, the holding still... my friend had one in transition and she said it took about ten minutes to get it in. She said it was terrifying and agonizing to hold still for that long through contractions. Horrible! That is actually a big part of why when the epi for me showed up (I was at 9cm), I refused it. I couldn't imagine holding still for that long, and I was so close to being fully dilated and finally progressing.

Spinal headaches... ugh!!! That sounds awful.

I definitely see a use for them. But unfortunately they are not a magic cure in labour.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

It took close to an hour to get mine in.

The BP crash was very scary.

Yeah they definitely have their use. I used to feel guilty about getting one, but not any more.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Ugh horrible - both the HOUR!!! to get it in, and the crash. How awful for you!

I'm nervous about natural birth based on my last experience, but I also am really committed to it, for the reasons I already mentioned here, and also yeah because the more I hear about the epi the scarier it sounds.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Yeah when things were tough with Liam, two things got me through- the thought of all my lovely friends who were supporting me and the memory of how crappy the car ride and the epidural was. I had no desire to get an epidural with Liam.

(We've totally taken over this thread.







)


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Yeah I guess we have.

I can relate on the car ride! Horrible, horrible.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

I didn't have one with DS1 and I had major BF'ing problems. I had one with DS2 and had no bf'ing problems.

I'd rather not get one this time but I'm not completely ruling it out. I didn't even feel mine go in. I only felt the numbing shot and that was like a bee sting. Everybody's experience is different which I guess is part of the risk.


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## UrbanCrunchyMama (Aug 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
but I know there was SOMETHING in my natural birth that made me higher than I have ever been in my life, once the baby came. And I was high for days and days. What a way to greet motherhood and a new child. That is why I want to give birth naturally again.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *MyBoysBlue* 
I remember being on a high after both my babies were born but I wouldn't say it was better than sex but thats JMO. I just felt like I drank too much coffee and was a bit wired.

I would say that I had a combination of both of your experiences. While I've never tried recreational drugs, I was FLYING HIGH immediately after Taylor was born.

In the hours following birth, I did also feel wired. Whenever I tried to sleep, I felt like I had a back-up generator humming throughout my body "Woom. Woom. Woom."

I finally had to call my massage therapist and begged her to come to the hospital to relieve me. She did some Swedish massage but focused on acupressure and Jin Shin Jyutsu. As she pressed on certain pressure points, that particular limb would convulse, releasing the energy pent up there.

After an hour-long treatment, I was cured of the back-up generator sensation, but the rush of overall alertness and energy continued for weeks.

I think going drug-free during birth and letting my body do it's own thing saved me from the Baby Blues and PPD. (Our daughter was colicky and refluxy for MONTHS! But I was OK and surprisingly calm throughout the ordeal.)

Since Taylor's birth, I've been looking forward to birthing naturally again (but I'm not ready for #2 just yet).


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

I did not plan to have an epidural with my first birth. I practiced hypnobirth. But I don't know, I was having non stop pain, for a whole night and I made no. progress. zero.... from 2 cm to 2 cm. It was awful, I was tired and scared I would not have enough strength to push baby out in the end. I knew it was not safe for the baby to have an epi and I was afraid but I gave up. Well, it may be bad for some women, it was good for me. I relaxed, and the birth went on sweetly, dh and I hugging and smiling and bonding with unborn dd1 and cheering her on... things went beautifully, in fact. Ok, I got the episiotomy, that was not good, and it was not necessary either, but really it was just because the o/b does it as standard practice (yeah..) I did not really need it, it had nothing to do with the epi, in fact the baby was out in 3 contractions and very easily out also. With my second birth -- all things said in retrospect -- I should not have begged for one. I was in transition - almost ready to push. I got totally scared because I had gone from 2 to 10 cm in just like an hour and was in such pain I was terrified and I said I would not push in all that pain. Just would not. Could not concentrate, could not be still. That time, with some help, I could have made it, and it would have been better because it did not bring a lot of relief (though at least I was able to push calmly) and I could feel a lot of afer effects (weakness, headache) afterwards. It did not have any effect on breastfeeding and bonding. And deep down I feel I wasn't ready for more at the time. I might now, but I do not think there will be a third.


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## heidirk (Oct 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
What?? How did I not know you had an epi with your first??

eta - Re epis and breastfeeding, I do know there is a statistical connection. However I wince when I see conclusions made about individual situations, judgments made really, when there is no way to actually know.










Oh no! I'm not judging her at all. I knew this was her choice, and I love her anyway. I was more lamenting the fact that the risks to breastfeeding from epidurals are NOT discussed in hospitals, so I felt like my SIL was misguided.
And I see how heart-broken she is about not breastfeeding. She called me a week after her DS was born and was sofrustrated and inso much pain. I tried to help, and I was so saddened by the lack of skilled support in her area! I just truly wish she'd gotten what she wanted!









As for a direct correlation; epi babies can have a less coordinated suck, and momma missing the hormone rollercoaster can challenge milk production.

Sorry to hear about your painful experience!


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angelcat* 
I have more trouble understanding why someone whould't want one than why they would. I don't even understand why I'd consider not even trying to get one if I ever have a vbac.

If I could be guaranteed that the epidural wouldn't have adverse effects, I'd still likely not have one, even though my labors were quite painful. This is because in addition to the pain were some really amazing sensations and pleasure, as well as the amazing experience of birthing in privacy, and not having the clinical aspect to it (which is a triggering situation for me.) So even if there wasn't any health-related danger, there would be the loss of other things that were extremely valuable to me.

Quote:

For me, labour was aboslutely nothing like sex, and I'm glad. It would just weird for me if it was. I guess each to their own.
It wasn't even remotely like sex for me, psychologically speaking. It's a different mindset entirely. But physically and viscerally there were certainly parallels, as normal birth has a hormonal process that is similar to normal sex. When in an environment in which I could be completely unselfconscious and allow my body to progress instinctively, my experience was that it was very sensual and primal. Having gone through that, it would be weird to me now to experience a more clinical, mechanical birth.

Quote:

I get really sick of the "you're in pain from labor because you were sexually abused" line, especially when midwives use it (I've read it in more than one book by MWs). Wow, how presumptuous.
Or, that pain is always due to psychological issues in general. With one of my midwives, it was that I was supposedly conflicted about being a mother, or that I was prudish about my body and its natural functions. Her attitude was the primary reason that that birth was so difficult and traumatic.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:

I get really sick of the "you're in pain from labor because you were sexually abused" line, especially when midwives use it (I've read it in more than one book by MWs). Wow, how presumptuous.
I have read, though, that some estimate that one out of three females has experienced sexual abuse at some point in her life. Looking at this statistic, IMO, the idea that a woman might have experienced some physological trauma during birth due to sexual abuse isn't _intended_ to be offensive or presumptious.

Now, anyone dismissing/blaming a woman for _anything_ regarding labor/birth, that's something entirely different, IMO.

Here's a resource I've seen recommended for anyone re: sexual abuse healing as it relates to the childbearing process.


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## velouria (Feb 17, 2005)

I, too, can vouche for "drugged out" feeling immediately after birth. As a caveat, I don't know if my spacey-ness was a result of the natural childbirth OR if it was because I hadn't slept in 2 days.









But I do look dazed in the first pics with my son immediately after delivery. And in one of the next few pics of the series, I look like I'm sleeping. LOL! I remember my sister telling me a couple months later that I kept falling asleep/pasing out for a few seconds at a time in the L&D room before I got transferred to the recovery room. WTH?!

And I do remember feeling like I had a major caffeine buzz for at least a couple days afterward. I could barely sleep, I was so wound up. Part of that could have been because I was afraid to fall asleep because my son kept choking on the amniotic fluid that kept coming up out of his lungs (he did not cry at all after delivery). NOT GOOD AT ALL for someone who hadn't slept for so long.

He did develop colic before we even left the hospital. OMG, it was hell. I did not cope well with that AT ALL. A therapist I saw earlier this year told me I undoubtedly had untreated PPD and PTSD as a direct result of that experience, as well as other things going on my life at the time (major home addition with dust and noise everywhere for the first 8 months of my son's life, a newborn who didn't sleep for the first 11 months, deaths in the family, etc.).

I guess what I'm saying is that despite having a natural childbirth and getting that hormonal epinephrine high, I still was not able to cope very well with the curveballs life was throwing at me.


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## Surfacing (Jul 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velouria* 
I guess what I'm saying is that despite having a natural childbirth and getting that hormonal epinephrine high, I still was not able to cope very well with the curveballs life was throwing at me.









Me too, I had NCB with no epi but it was traumatic, I had PTSD, a colicy baby who mightily refused the breast despite my best efforts, PPA. I am considering an epi this time but who knows....I have had friends who have had great experiences with it and others who have not (quite the contrary).







What really got me was that all my friends who've had epis were able to bf their children, while I was not.







Ah well, such it is!


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## erin_brycesmom (Nov 5, 2005)

I think it is a bit naive for a mama immediately sign up for the epidural without any other plans just because she doesn't want to exprience pain for any variety of reasons. You can't always get an epidural and it doesn't always work. If you know you want one, more power to you but it is probably a really good idea to think about how you plan to handle the pain if you can't get one or if it doesn't work properly.


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

i havent read all of the pages but i just saw one where there was a woman reading a magazine after the epidural and i just want to say how that is NOT the norm.
Epis dont work on everyone and once you get it your body stop producing its own pain management hormones and it is even worse. On some it only works on half of your body... etc...etc... the vision of a woman with an epi in place just sitting there all pretty while in labor is few and far between and i really hope nobody believes that it is the norm.


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## danotoyou2 (Jan 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *erin_brycesmom* 
I think it is a bit naive for a mama immediately sign up for the epidural without any other plans just because she doesn't want to exprience pain for any variety of reasons. You can't always get an epidural and it doesn't always work. If you know you want one, more power to you but it is probably a really good idea to think about how you plan to handle the pain if you can't get one or if it doesn't work properly.

This is a GREAT point. I've talked to many women who wanted an epidural, and for one reason or another weren't able to get one (or it didn't work). Then, they had to deal with the pain, and didn't know how to cope. Then it can turn into a very traumatic experience.


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## hempmama (Dec 16, 2004)

Quote:

i havent read all of the pages but i just saw one where there was a woman reading a magazine after the epidural and i just want to say how that is NOT the norm.

Well actually it IS the norm- statistically epidurals work properly a great majority of the time. It's not a guarantee(and maybe that's what you meant), but that is what usually happens.

In my case, working properly meant I didn't feel the epis going in (at all. No pain, not even from the needle), could still feel contractions and an urge to push, so had both pushing stages self directed- one on hands and knees, one on my my side. I felt the baby in the canal both times. I think those last two- ability to position myself however I wanted, and feel the baby in the canal- are unusual, and probably because I live in a crunchy city with a crunchy hospital whose amazine anesthesiology department values those kinds of things. I definitely wouldn't expect most epidural experiences to be like that. But usually they do work properly, and you sit there reading magazines. The thing with that is that you may be totally numb, unable to move at all, which can be very disconcerting for many people, and then certainly sometimes they don't work. That's definitely a risk I knew I was taking when I went in for the epi, and I think one most women are aware of- the world loves to tell a pregnant woman horror stories right?









I also did not wait until I was at the end of my coping skills to get the epi with my second child. I guess you could say I got it "just in case," but it already hurt pretty bad, and I knew whenever I wanted to get it I'd need to be able to lie still for about 4 minutes. I didn't think I'd be capable of doing that when labor got more intense.

Funnily enough you guys are getting me excited for the possibility of NCB for this one. I actually did have that high after both my births- more intense with my first; it lasted 4 days, maybe because my epi was a very low dose. But I think there are just a couple of misstated facts up there that aren't going to help your credibility if you are trying to convince a woman who wants an epi to try naturally.


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## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *danotoyou2* 
This is a GREAT point. I've talked to many women who wanted an epidural, and for one reason or another weren't able to get one (or it didn't work). Then, they had to deal with the pain, and didn't know how to cope. Then it can turn into a very traumatic experience.


That is a good point. My labour plan was get an epidural. I found out during prenatal class that my local hospital rarely does epis. They also didn't cover breathing in prenatal. hey just said it was a waste of time to practice as the nurses would tell you how to breathe. Which they do, but towards the end of my oregnancy, I started to get soem braxtron hicks that were pretty painful. And no nurse weith me to tell me what to do. So I asked a nurse friend of mine, and she showed me the breathging stuff, so that's what got me thru early labour, and whenever a nurse wasn't around during hard labour.


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hempmama* 
Well actually it IS the norm- statistically epidurals work properly a great majority of the time. It's not a guarantee(and maybe that's what you meant), but that is what usually happens.

.


as someone who worked in a hospital for over 5 years with laboring women I know this is not the case, a great percentage of women have them not work at all and an even greater number have them not work properly (i am not even talking about the complications from them like getting too high a dosage at one time, or having the needle not put in properly or falling out, i am merely talking about the meds not working for some women).


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## hempmama (Dec 16, 2004)

I think working in one hospital gives you a great perspective on what happens in that hospital. I am not so sure it tells you about the results of anesthesia nation wide. If I were to tell you about my friends' births, I would tell you that an epidural works 100% of the time, causes no complications, and never interferes with BFing. It's a good thing we have more objective statistics- I did research on them 4 years ago at this point, so it's possible it's changed (though I doubt they've gotten LESS effective)but over 80% of the time, they are effective on both sides. The most common complain is only working on one side- less than 10% (but that's still a big number, and definitely one that shines bright in my mind when I think about NCB for the next one), with not working at all being, I think, under 5%. There is also the matter of individual anesthesiology departments- as I said mine is particularly good, and tracks these things fairly closely. Their complication rate is much lower than above. Maybe your hospital is more on the other side- I grew up in the deep south, and there was definitely far less concern for a woman's birth experience overall in hospital environments than I find here.

Not to quibble, I'm just very sure of this.


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hempmama* 
I think working in one hospital gives you a great perspective on what happens in that hospital. I am not so sure it tells you about the results of anesthesia nation wide. If I were to tell you about my friends' births, I would tell you that an epidural works 100% of the time, causes no complications, and never interferes with BFing. It's a good thing we have more objective statistics- I did research on them 4 years ago at this point, so it's possible it's changed (though I doubt they've gotten LESS effective)but over 80% of the time, they are effective on both sides. The most common complain is only working on one side- less than 10% (but that's still a big number, and definitely one that shines bright in my mind when I think about NCB for the next one), with not working at all being, I think, under 5%. There is also the matter of individual anesthesiology departments- as I said mine is particularly good, and tracks these things fairly closely. Their complication rate is much lower than above. Maybe your hospital is more on the other side- I grew up in the deep south, and there was definitely far less concern for a woman's birth experience overall in hospital environments than I find here.

Not to quibble, I'm just very sure of this.


i live in texas and i worked in hospitals in texas and louisiana so maybe that is the problem... only between 20-25% of our patients had epis that worked 100% without complications and that number was pretty much dead on for everywhere I worked.


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## BetsyS (Nov 8, 2004)

I worked in several hospitals over the years--most had excellent anesthesiology departments, but some just didn't care. The first hospital I worked in didn't really care--and, as a bonus, the manager of L&D preferred to hire only new grads--no one with experience elsewhere worked there. So, none of us knew that it wasn't "normal" to get epidurals that didn't work over half of the time. Now, I look back, and I feel bad for those women. But, I did learn alot about laboring coping skills.









My epidural didn't work well. So much so that we just pulled it, so that at least I wasn't confined to bed anymore. The second one worked better, but not great. I researched alot of stuff about my hospital birth, but I never thought to ask about anesthesia. For this next baby, the anesthesia department is at the top of my list of questions.


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## danotoyou2 (Jan 19, 2007)

I think it's important to remember that an uncomplicated epidural does NOT mean that a woman is so comfortable that she'll be reading magazines. Many women still do feel the contractions as a strong, intense pressure... just not so painful.


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## erin_brycesmom (Nov 5, 2005)

I had an epidural with my first and it did not work properly. It worked great to numb me from the crotch down but I still had a lot of feeling left in my abdominal area. It locked me in because after having it I could not get up, could not move my legs or hips at all...not even enough to roll myself on my side. It was pure torture not to be able to move around in an attempt to relieve some of the pain.

After that experience I tried to research the effectiveness of epidurals and the best study I could find stated that epidurals were effective enough to perform c-sections 80% of the time. The other 20% required additional measures to numb the area. Not a lot of discussion about how ineffective those 20% were...I'd imagine you wouldn't want to be numb enough for surgery when having a vaginal birth anyhow but I'm sure there was a wide range there. I haven't looked into it in the last few years so hopefully there is better info on that now.


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## grumpybear (Oct 5, 2006)

I just want to share that a lot of my friends/peers in the Philippines also believe that with every childbirth comes an epidural.
They think I'm a bit strange for declining one and believe with all their heart that they cannot give birth without one.
It is definitely the norm there just as a c-section would be in the near future.


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## pitter_patter (Jan 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UrbanCrunchyMama* 
Saddle block? Never heard of that term. What is it?


It is another type of spinal pain relief, it numbs the anus, vagina, and perineum (the areas that would touch a saddle). The saddle provided more reliable pain relief without causing me to be completely numb from the waist down. I could still move my legs and felt the contractions and knew when to push. The saddle is more for delivery, not really used during labor as it does nothing to take away the discomfort from contractions.


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## xelakann (Jul 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *QueenOfThePride* 
I had a traumatic natural birth 4 months ago. If I ever get pregnant again, I would seriously consider an epidural.

This was me 5 weeks ago. I told myself that if I ever have another baby I will get an epi. I *know* the risks involved. I didn't have fear of pain for this baby, in fact I had the opposite... but after my painful birth experience I now have fear.

I keep waiting for time to skew my memories, but not so far.


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## Surfacing (Jul 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *erin_brycesmom* 
I had an epidural with my first and it did not work properly. It worked great to numb me from the crotch down but I still had a lot of feeling left in my abdominal area. It locked me in because after having it I could not get up, could not move my legs or hips at all...not even enough to roll myself on my side. It was pure torture not to be able to move around in an attempt to relieve some of the pain.

I didn't have an epidural but because dd's heartrate went down too low during the birth, and care was transferred to an OB, I was REQUIRED to remain flat on my back, knees up, pushing, so they could monitor the baby. My mw also had to rub dd's head the whole time to keep her heartrate up. In this way we avoided a c-sec (which the OB wanted to do) but I HATED HATED HATED that I could not move, it was torture and so painful. So NOT getting an epidural is no guarantee that you WOULD be able to move. That's one thing I was so ticked off and disillusioned about, I couldn't do the usual things women do for comfort measures when they were giving birth without pain meds.


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## Sonnenwende (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *xelakann* 
I keep waiting for time to skew my memories, but not so far.

It took me around 15 months or so for it to fade a bit into the background.

I always wanted an epidural. Long story short, I didn't get one. I really don't see much redeeming about having to go through all of pain and terror when you don't have to. I am not having any more, but if I were, I would seriously consider planning an induction just so I would get an epidural the next time around.


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## erin_brycesmom (Nov 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Emese'sMom* 
I didn't have an epidural but because dd's heartrate went down too low during the birth, and care was transferred to an OB, I was REQUIRED to remain flat on my back, knees up, pushing, so they could monitor the baby. My mw also had to rub dd's head the whole time to keep her heartrate up. In this way we avoided a c-sec (which the OB wanted to do) but I HATED HATED HATED that I could not move, it was torture and so painful. So NOT getting an epidural is no guarantee that you WOULD be able to move. That's one thing I was so ticked off and disillusioned about, I couldn't do the usual things women do for comfort measures when they were giving birth without pain meds.

So sorry you could not move!! I guess I don't understand what was going on because I don't see any reason why you would have to remain flat on your back. Was this just for pushing? Regardless, you still had more movement range than most who get an epidural and I had my epidural for hours and hours and hours before I even started pushing.

Having the epidural would not have granted you the movement either though. Generally speaking just about every single mother who does not get an epidural is able to move but most who do get the epidural have significant restricted movement. There really isn't much of a comparison there.

So yeah, not getting the epidural does pretty much guarantee that you will be able to move.

...as much as anything can be guaranteed in childbirth.


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

I thought I wanted one with my first. Why? Well because labor hurts and why wouldn't I want medication to stop the pain?
Because no one told me it was better for me and the baby not to have one. Because no one told me about the side effects or risks. Because no one told me it hurts but not so bad that I couldn't handle it. Because no one told me that the "pain" is part of the process and experience.

I ended up with a spinal and a c-section though no epidural.
The second time around I was smarter and had a HBAC.


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## WillowBrook (Nov 24, 2007)

A friend of mine had a n epidural with her first child, she had laboured for 8 hours and was very distressed and exhausted from the pain so she requested an epidural. Apparently her labour progressed really quickly from there, probably because she was a bit more relaxed and able to work with her body instead of against it. I saw pictures of her birth and after the epidural she was still able to stand and walk around and get into all sorts of different positions, I think she was in a deep squat at one stage and then over a birthing ball at another









I will definitely be signing up for an Epidural when I give birth....a C-Section might be a tad bit painful without one


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Hi! Just a friendly reminder to help keep the discussion on track:

Quote:

Mothering.com is the website of natural family living and advocates natural solutions to parenting challenges. *We host discussion of* nighttime parenting, loving discipline, *natural birth,* homebirth, successful breastfeeding, alternative and complementary home remedies, *informed consent*, and many other topics _from a natural point of view_.
Here are several Mothering Magazine links about birth interventions:

Hidden Risks of Epidurals

Obstetrical Interventions

Epidural Epidemic

Hormonal Blueprint for Labor

Wake Up!


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia* 
Hi! Just a friendly reminder to help keep the discussion on track:

Here are several Mothering Magazine links about birth interventions:

Hidden Risks of Epidurals

Obstetrical Interventions

Epidural Epidemic

Hormonal Blueprint for Labor

Wake Up!


thank you for the reminder, I think we all forget sometimes that MDC is supposed to be about since it is such a huge forum.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

BTW, my reminder wasn't to anyone in particular







Sometimes the advocacy issue gets set aside. It's important to remember that labor/birth interventions have their place.

Birth is very personal and can be an emotional topic. Thanks to everyone for such a respectful discussion


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## UrbanCrunchyMama (Aug 7, 2007)

I would imagine that you have to sign a waiver of some sort when you agree to an epidural, correct? What does it say exactly?

I would imagine that the waiver outlines some risks, but then again, a woman in the throes of labor isn't exactly operating from her most objective self.


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## ShannaW (May 22, 2006)

Just wanted to share some natural birth stories, all of which take place IN hospitals. This is just a small sampling, as there's a new one about every week on the yahoo group.

http://www.enjoybirth.com/testimonials.htm#Hypnobabies

I feel soooooo much more prepared with this program!! I labored unmedicated on an agressive pitocin induction for 14 hrs, with only Bradley training. It was only after some argueing about labor position I agreed to an epi, and ended up with a c-section less then an hour later. I was the classic case of the cascade of interventions.

Give me another week or two and I'll hopefully be able to add a beautiful NCB vba2c story!


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Responding late here. I signed up for them with both births. I knew I had pain issues related to the abuse I suffered for years as a child. I did not feel like dealing with old ghosts during my labors. I know I could have probably worked through those issues beforehand if I had been determined not to have an epidural. My first pg was pretty mainstream and I didn't know a lot about choices, but an epidural sounded pretty good to me at the time. I had a great experience with the epidural and everything went well. By the time I was pg with my dd2 I knew more about birth choices but still had the pain/abuse issues and then had some depression starting up that I still struggle with today. So I had another epidural, the birth went great. I have no regrets. However if I had a third baby I probably would confront those issues and try for a natural birth. My dh has a vasectomy now so we won't have a third. But if we did, I would try things differently.


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## Surfacing (Jul 19, 2005)

USAmma - I've noticed your story before and meant to comment but didn't get to it. I can relate to your story. I had childhood violence issues and witnessed different types of abuse. I had done years of therapy and read BFW and other stuff, done meditation etc. in hopes of preparing for NCB. In many ways the work I did was helpful, but in the end I still found the old ghosts resurfacing, esp. SHAME. I was overwhelmed by the pain and overwhelmed emotionally, and I felt so much SHAME to admit that I needed help, felt like I couldn't handle it, etc.

I guess I'm just trying to say that I wonder what that would look like - adequately "preparing" or working through issues after an abuse history so that things during birth are okay. [Feel free to jump in here with comments anyone!







] I'm reading Penny Simkin's Survivors book right now (should've finished it by now - eeps! So close to having baby #2) and although much resonates and makes good sense, I really feel like I've done much of what she suggests for coping....and it still wasn't enough last time.







Oh well. I'm reading the part on triggers next which is what my doula wanted to discuss shortly so maybe that'll bring some add'l insight.

Sorry for the ramble.......just some thoughts that were triggered........

ETA: beautiful family USAmma!


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## ananas (Jun 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmama8824* 
Well, I take pain medication during my period because it hurts and it's not necessary to lay on the floor in the fetal position crying (I have extremely horrible menstrual cramps) but I don't want an epidural. It's not good for me, and it's not good for baby. Menstrual cramps aren't pain with a purpose... know what I mean?? I have no reason to sit through the pain of period cramps, I do have a reason to not get an epidural.

Exactly...I have endometriosis, which has caused cramps bad enough before that I was packing up to go to the ER. I would never accept drugs during labor, but I do occasionally have to take Tylenol or Midol for the pain during my period. Maybe just because it seems like it will never end, where as with labor, I know that eventually, it will.


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## erin_brycesmom (Nov 5, 2005)

Here is my thing...there are a variety of reasons to get an epidural and I'm all for choice. *But* a lot of the answers I hear about why people "sign up" for an epidural revolve around the pain. I am not going to suggest that anyone should endure a lot of pain if they don't want to but that thought hinges on the assumption that not getting the epidural means you are going to be in a lot of pain. I've had two labors so far and the one where I got the epidural was painful and the one where I did not get the epidural was *not* painful.

Like I mentioned, I had an epidural that did not work to its full potential the first time around and I went into my second birth thinking I'd try the epidural again if I felt I couldn't handle the pain. I did a lot of things differently with my second and the whole labor and delivery ended up being relatively pain free.

I can understand that some would rather put their money on the epidural and not risk being in pain before they can get an epidural but I do think it is something to think about. I think many women can experience less pain without the epidural.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Yep the choices are not necessarily epidural or ungodly pain.


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## Joyster (Oct 26, 2007)

I'm a bit late chiming in, my apologies, I have a new one at home.









With my first I had an epidural, if you are at all even remotely interested in one, they have you fill out forms, so they're not asking dopey questions during labour. With my second (nearly two weeks old now *G*) there wasn't an epidural. With my third, I WILL be having an epidural. lol

Seriously, it hurt like hell and the painful part was only 4 hours. By the time I got to the hospital I was already 5cms, and had been experiencing painful labour for about 30 minutes (non painful...well relatively for a good 6 hours or so). Anyhow, I was pretty much climbing the walls in pain and I don't plan a repeat performance. lol Amazingly I didn't swear once.

The difference in the babies. Not much, both were pretty alert and healthy, the first labour wasn't stalled, both had great latches, I had crummy milk supply issues both times. My two guys have been pretty similar in all cases, except the second was 9lbs and change! They even look alike, asides from one having long lashes and brown eyes and one having tiny lashes and blue eyes.

The main difference was me recovering a bit faster without the epidural, and my back not being as sore, but I think I'd rather take the extra day laying around in bed than even an hour of back labour and tearing again. The only thing I did like about my second labour was pushing. I felt the urge to push with my first, but not the progress of pushing him out. With the second, I think it was the only bit of relief I felt, but it was neat feeling the progress.


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## 3cuties (Mar 4, 2006)

I just wish that in the US we had more alternatives. For example, women laboring in other countries have the option of using nitrous oxide. http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1523-536X.2006.00150.x?prevSearch=$%7BresultBean.text%7 D&cookieSet=1

I can see the need for epidurals at certain points -- with my 1st two labors I had them after a certain point. I didn't with my third. I am still struggling with the idea of homebirth, b/c I never like all or nothing choices/decisions.


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## onelilguysmommy (May 11, 2005)

i have friends who signed up for the epi, and i didnt understand it then and dont now. if youre going to want it, then maybe learn about it (my first friend, she wasnt sure, ended up wanting it after the doc gave her pit when she promised not to...and never was told that paralyzation is a risk until after the fact, she found out and FREAKED out.) and then decide. dont ust "oh whooho, no pain and everything s hunkie dorie. there are real risks a lot of people dont understand or know about









they tried to force it on me, i had a pit induced first birth, and had argued with me, finally they set it up when i was in the bathroom. still refused, they got mad and laughed at me saying id want it later over and over... yeah.

made me more against them than i was unless youre having some sort of traumatic experience, not just "oh i hurt." ive seen people who will admit they had very little pain, i know its mamas choice but i dont get why youd take the risk if it doesnt hurt much to begin with, kwim?


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## 3cuties (Mar 4, 2006)

We are talking about epis before labor gets going and before the pain is intense -- correct? Why? One is fear of pain and experience with past labors. Second, it is just how birth is administered in this country. It is mainstream, doctors recommend it. The majority of women get them, it would be going aginst the grain and involve serious questioning to not get one. It is seriously outside of the mainstream to consider a natural birth. It is part of American culture to go along with the mainstream, to not question authority and do as everyone else does.

If a woman is in pain and needs one, I do not fault her. If a woman is traumatized from her last birth, I understand that. If a woman is caught up in mainstream and doesn't even see that there are people questioning -- I completely understand that too. What I fault is the system that doesn't present options. When I went to see my midwife for my first birth and said I wanted a natural birth -- he (yes he!) said great! However, he never asked me how I planned to go forward or what I was going to do to manage the pain. Why not? I was completley unprepared for birth much less a posterior positioned birth. He was a great midwife and b/c of him I am so thankful I did not get a c-section, or have vacuum or forceps used -- instead he let me push for over 4 hours. But why, why didn't he help me prepare? Encourage me to read about the Bradley Method or Hypnosis? Or Penny Simkin? It is the entire system that is the problem, not the individual women who sucuumbs to it.


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## Surfacing (Jul 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3cuties* 
What I fault is the system that doesn't present options. When I went to see my midwife for my first birth and said I wanted a natural birth -- he (yes he!) said great! However, he never asked me how I planned to go forward or what I was going to do to manage the pain. Why not? I was completley unprepared for birth much less a posterior positioned birth. He was a great midwife and b/c of him I am so thankful I did not get a c-section, or have vacuum or forceps used -- instead he let me push for over 4 hours. But why, why didn't he help me prepare? Encourage me to read about the Bradley Method or Hypnosis? Or Penny Simkin? It is the entire system that is the problem, not the individual women who sucuumbs to it.

Pushing for 4 hours??? UGH!!!!







: This is an interesting question. I had wondered this too about my first MW who did a great job keeping baby safe and healthy when there was emergency, and keeping the medical staff away from me with their c-sec and forceps....but she didn't offer any support to me with my pain. I had wondered: is it fair to expect the MW to do that as well? How much of this was her responsibility and how much was mine? I am not sure I have answers yet to that question.


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

for me part of going with a midwife and not a doctor was because i wanted someone to expect me to take control over my own birth and my own body. To own my experience, therefore I didnt expect her to offer techniques or to teach me about them. If I wanted someone who was going to tell me what to do I would have used a doctor, if my midwife would have done that I think I would have gotten angry... but then again I like my midwife because she is really hands off. basically it is borderline UC.

To me part of the natural birth experience is research and empowerment. It is my job to have the birth that I want.
ETA:
Maybe that is why it is important to find the type of midwife that we each need and why interviewing them and asking them what they help you with is important. I basically just need a midwife to make sure I dont die if something goes wrong, other than that... I dont want to be bothered during my pregnancy or labor.


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## 3cuties (Mar 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Emese'sMom* 
Pushing for 4 hours??? UGH!!!!







: This is an interesting question. I had wondered this too about my first MW who did a great job keeping baby safe and healthy when there was emergency, and keeping the medical staff away from me with their c-sec and forceps....but she didn't offer any support to me with my pain. I had wondered: is it fair to expect the MW to do that as well? How much of this was her responsibility and how much was mine? I am not sure I have answers yet to that question.

Yup 4 hours.







What about just asking during the prenatal appointments what the mother plans on doing for pain management, if she appears clueless -- just telling her about the differernet options and suggesting books.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *almadianna* 
for me part of going with a midwife and not a doctor was because i wanted someone to expect me to take control over my own birth and my own body. To own my experience, therefore I didnt expect her to offer techniques or to teach me about them. If I wanted someone who was going to tell me what to do I would have used a doctor, if my midwife would have done that I think I would have gotten angry... but then again I like my midwife because she is really hands off. basically it is borderline UC.

To me part of the natural birth experience is research and empowerment. It is my job to have the birth that I want.

For you, yes but that is because it appears you are operating from a greater base of knowledge than I was in 1999 when I had my first. What about people who do not have access to research? What about people who do not even know there are methods out there to research? In 1999 I did not have this knowledge. I thought you just went in there and did it. If my midwife had talked to me during my pregnancy and asked what I planned to do and said, "Well there are many theories on management during labor -- feel free to borrow my books -- i.e. Penny Simkin, the Bradley Method, etc." All I ever heard about was Lamaze, I didn't know anything else existed. Thus I had no idea that there was stuff to research.

I have seent his with my coworkers who literally have no idea that there is anything other than bearing the pain v. getting an epidural. That information is actually not just sitting there ready for others to take and absorb. Someone has to present it to them first -- so why should the role of a careprovider be purely medical? Why not also be a resource for pain management technique. If not, then the system is essentially unchanged -- women are out there floating alone and have to find out by themselves. Until there is a cultural shift, it won't change.

Right now in Chicago there is this awesome group that assists low income women and provides them with doulas and prenatal care -- part of it is to educate them on pain techniques. The results have been phenomonal.


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3cuties* 
Thus I had no idea that there was stuff to research.
.

I was a woman who knew nothing about childbirth or kids because she was never going to have kids because she was too busy moving up in corporate america. I had never seen a birth. Never wanted to. Never even imagined I would. I honest to goodness thought children came at 9 months on the dot, and that labor was 5 minutes long because that is what the TV said.
I was the text book definition of ignorant.

As soon as I got pregnant I immediately started doing research. I guess I dont understand how someone could not research this on their own... but maybe it is my type A, always have to be in control, never get caught with your pants down personality... seeing how important childbirth is I would have exhausted every means imaginable to make sure that I knew everything about it.

I understand that some people arent like this and I dont expect everyone to be like this... but that is why as I said above you really have to make sure that you get the caregiver that you want and need. Ask the right questions, it really is such a personal thing that if nothing else I think we should make sure that we get a care giver that fits our needs and that will help us.

Part of the whole empowerment of birth and of taking back birth is not assuming that women dont know any better and are in need of a handholding...

eta:
"Right now in Chicago there is this awesome group that assists low income women and provides them with doulas and prenatal care -- part of it is to educate them on pain techniques. The results have been phenomonal."

this is wonderful, for those that dont have access to libraries, the internet, or books.... this is really helpful. I am glad that something is being done to help those who cant help themselves very well.


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## 3cuties (Mar 4, 2006)

Well I guess it just depends on what sort of model you envision for women and the future. You know?









Model 1: Information is available and provided to women by careproviders and other women concerning birth, breastfeeding, etc.

Model 2: No information is provided or readily available. There is a medical model (endorsed and supported by the financial interests of various corporations) where people just follow the doc's advice. Otherwise, if people want to opt out they are forced into a subculture and need to do independent research and make independent connections.

In my view Model 2 is currently in existence. I would prefer Model 1. I understand that we here on MDC have all managed to survive and get what we want to some extent even though Model 2 is what exists. We have made independent connections, we have researched ad naseum. And we probably want a pat on the back too. Well I did it - why not her? I asked the questions&#8230;..why can't she? But don't you see that this is just a blame game? It is putting the onus on individuals to work against a system that is heavily armed and fights any dissension at all steps. In my perfect world, women have birthing choices just made available to them at a careproviders office. Women are raised in such a system so our daughters expect it. That women across families and generations talk about birthing choices, talk about breastfeeding - they can learn it from each other (the way it used to be), instead of having to go solo and learn it from a book or a webpage or hire a consultant.


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3cuties* 
Model 2: No information is provided or readily available. There is a medical model (endorsed and supported by the financial interests of various corporations) where people just follow the doc's advice. Otherwise, if people want to opt out they are forced into a subculture and need to do independent research and make independent connections.

In my view Model 2 is currently in existence. I would prefer Model 1. I understand that we here on MDC have all managed to survive and get what we want to some extent even though Model 2 is what exists. We have made independent connections, we have researched ad naseum. And we probably want a pat on the back too. Well I did it - why not her? I asked the questions&#8230;..why can't she? But don't you see that this is just a blame game? It is putting the onus on individuals to work against a system that is heavily armed and fights and dissension at all steps. In my perfect world, women have birthing choices just made available to them at a careproviders office. The women are raised in such a system so our daughters expect it. That women across families and generations talk about birthing choices, talk about breastfeeding - they can learn it from each other (the way it used to be), instead of having to go solo and learn it from a book or a webpage or hire a consultant.

Except there is a great deal of informations available, if there wasnt... how would we all be here?







we dont need pat on the backs... but we also dont need to be spoonfed things. If we wanted to be spoonfed information we could have gone to an OB.


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## 3cuties (Mar 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *almadianna* 
Except there is a great deal of informations available, if there wasnt... how would we all be here?







we dont need pat on the backs... but we also dont need to be spoonfed things. If we wanted to be spoonfed information we could have gone to an OB.

I think you may be incorrect in your assumptions. I am betting that many people here problably did go to an OB and likely did have a bad experience at one time. Secondly, going to an OB is not necessarily the issue -- women can have good natural birth experiences with an OB involved. I know that I have had that experience with one of my labors.

I know what your experiences are -- but may I gently suggest stepping outside of your experience before you judge someone else? People cannot be held to the same benchmark as one person, objectivity is the key in this circumstance. I think it is wonderful that you did all that research -- I commend you, but not everyone will do that or think to do that and that doesn't mean they deserve to languish in a medical model.

Finally, you obviously had an inkling that something was out there that needed to be looked into. Many people do not. Good for you. Not everyone is in that position nor has access to those resources. But expecting a midwife to discuss birth management techniques is not being spoonfeed IMO. Instead, it is part of the package of providing care of birth IMO.

My experience is not everyone's and I do not expect anyone else to do what I have done. I witnesssed a homebirth during my childhood -- my mother having my younger sibling. I saw my mom breastfeed. To me birth was natural. Breastfeeding was natural. You just do it. What was there to research? I wanted to do it. Why couldn't I? I hired a midwife b/c that is what seemed natural. We never discussed pain management at all. I took the hospital offered courses on breatfeeding and childbirth. I thought I was covering all my bases and doing everything I could. I only learned about posterior positioning while in labor. I only learned during labor that it is really just hard to walk into childbirth and expect to do it naturally. Under your scenario, I am screwed b/c I expected to be spoonfed -- when in reality I am a type A personality. An overachiever and always have been. I was in lawschool at the time, got straight As the semester I delivered, won an oral argument competition 1 day before I went into labor -- but well, I wasn't spoonfed pain management techniques so I didn't learn them.









In my work I come across alot of women. I work in a very large law firm. I cannot tell you how many women want to breastfeed and want to have a natural birth. However there is simply no understanding that there is anything else out there that they need to learn to do it rather than just doing it.

This is just my opinion. In past generations and in other cultures, women teach women how to labor and how to breastfeed. Women see other women breastfeed and labor. Right now in the US there is a disconnect, that doesn't exist in our culture anymore because the medical and corproate model dominate. And if we continue to believe that this is okay as a norm, and blame women for succumbing to it -- it doesn't challenge the system, it only perpetuates it.


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## Writerbird (Jun 1, 2007)

Certainly I see what you're getting at, 3C - but I think I understand Alma's larger point, which is that we're ultimately responsible.

Before I got pregnant (only this past May!), I was pretty much aware of two options. Discovery Health Channel specials, and something called "natural" which was done only by hairy legged weirdos in forests. With chanting. Possibly incense.

I suspected these might be extremes, but I assumed the former was not nearly as extreme as the latter.

However, I dutifully googled "natural childbirth" as well as "hospitals." And I read more than fifty books. And I am naturally suspicious, being of scientific mind. If I see a statement that says "epidurals are perfectly safe with rare side effects," I damn well want to see a footnote citing the studies that revealed the side effect rates and a list of what those side effects are.

Well, surprise, surprise, but the Girlfriend's Guide to Pregnancy doesn't have footnotes, and the Thinking Woman's Guide does. What To Expect has no bibliography. Ina May does. The authors may be biased, but at least they're willing to say "here's the signed, dated research. Do your own followup if you don't want to take my word for it."

I'm told I'm overly anal, but I did as much reading and study before I took a trip to Italy. I don't see why anyone wouldn't wander into a public library before taking on childbirth.


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Writerbird* 
Certainly I see what you're getting at, 3C - but I think I understand Alma's larger point, which is that we're ultimately responsible.

Before I got pregnant (only this past May!), I was pretty much aware of two options. Discovery Health Channel specials, and something called "natural" which was done only by hairy legged weirdos in forests. With chanting. Possibly incense.

I suspected these might be extremes, but I assumed the former was not nearly as extreme as the latter.

However, I dutifully googled "natural childbirth" as well as "hospitals." And I read more than fifty books. And I am naturally suspicious, being of scientific mind. If I see a statement that says "epidurals are perfectly safe with rare side effects," I damn well want to see a footnote citing the studies that revealed the side effect rates and a list of what those side effects are.

Well, surprise, surprise, but the Girlfriend's Guide to Pregnancy doesn't have footnotes, and the Thinking Woman's Guide does. What To Expect has no bibliography. Ina May does. The authors may be biased, but at least they're willing to say "here's the signed, dated research. Do your own followup if you don't want to take my word for it."

I'm told I'm overly anal, but I did as much reading and study before I took a trip to Italy. I don't see why anyone wouldn't wander into a public library before taking on childbirth.


this is exactly how I feel. I dont see how anyone cannot wander into a free public library to get educated about their options.

I think that taking what is ultimately our responsibility and putting it on our healthcare providers is exactly the reason that we are in the situation that we are... letting others made decisions for us.


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## 3cuties (Mar 4, 2006)

Also remember in 2008 there is much more information available now and the internet is a different thing than even just 8-10 years ago.

Second, I am just amazed at the judgment against women who didn't do as we do and the lack of desire to question the system. I thought that was what I read so much about in all the threads and posts on MDC about pregnancy. But really, in the end -- the system is not being questioned? Instead the preference is to assign individual blame and judge people by our own experience rather than step outside of our experience and look at thing's objectively. This is so bothersome to me.


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3cuties* 
Also remember in 2008 there is much more information available now and the internet is a different thing than even just 8-10 years ago.

Second, I am just amazed at the judgment against women who didn't do as we do and the lack of desire to question the system. I thought that was what I read so much about in all the threads and posts on MDC about pregnancy. But really, in the end -- the system is not being questioned? Instead the preference is to assign individual blame and judge people by our own experience rather than step outside of our experience and look at thing's objectively. This is so bothersome to me.

if people dont want to question the system that is their choice, i am not judging them... but i also dont expect them to blame others for their choices.
I own my birth choices. We all should.


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## 3cuties (Mar 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *almadianna* 
if people dont want to question the system that is their choice, i am not judging them... but i also dont expect them to blame others for their choices.
I own my birth choices. We all should.


Actually your posts do judge them. And people cannot own their own "choices" without having full knowledge. There is not full disclosure in the current medical model but yet people believe there is.


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3cuties* 
Actually your posts do judge them. And people cannot own their own "choices" without having full knowledge. There is not full disclosure in the current medical model but yet people believe there is.

i think this is the crucial point where we differ in opinion. I firmly believe it is our responsibility to get full knowledge because letting others give us this information is what got us in this situation in the first place.


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## 3cuties (Mar 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *almadianna* 
i think this is the crucial point where we differ in opinion. I firmly believe it is our responsibility to get full knowledge because letting others give us this information is what got us in this situation in the first place.

The problem is though, there isn't room in the system for people to know they are not getting full knowledge. Most of mothers and grandmothers come from this system -- there is a lack of knowledge through the generations. People are surrounded by everyone doing the same thing and receiving the same care. The responsibility for this is not individuals it is the doctors and their educators and that they have allowed a system to develop that is not evidence based and is counter to their oaths and the reason they practice.


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3cuties* 
The problem is though, there isn't room in the system for people to know they are not getting full knowledge. Most of mothers and grandmothers come from this system -- there is a lack of knowledge through the generations. People are surrounded by everyone doing the same thing and receiving the same care. The responsibility for this is not individuals it is the doctors and their educators and that they have allowed a system to develop that is not evidence based and is counter to their oaths and the reason they practice.

so you are saying that we should put our faith and trust in a system that has not worked, is not working, and is to blame for the lack of information that women have? (the whole letting our caregivers inform us thing is what I mean of course...)
We have a for profit system in most countries and we definately have it here (i am talking mostly the US here so sorry to those that arent from here i am going to be US centric in this comment) how could we or should we be expected to put that responsibility into their hands?

you are advocating this instead of having women empower themselves and take control of their own life, their own choices, and their own births?

ETA:

In a perfect world... we should be able to trust that our caregivers will give us the care and education that we need. We should be able to have them help us understand our choices. But we dont live there.... and we havent for a long time.


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## Writerbird (Jun 1, 2007)

Can I declare you both right?

I was in the middle of reading book #7 when a dear friend (a strong, smart woman) accepted an induction on her exact due date because her doctor - whom she trusted implicitly - said it was safe, that the chemicals were just like the ones her body made. She'd spent nine months hearing from her mother that the women in her family always went early. This repetition convinced my friend that she was "late" at exactly 40 weeks. Heck, she was sure she was at 40 weeks in the first place because the sonogram technician said so, even though she wasn't quite sure of her dates.

She ended up with painful labor, an internal monitor, and ultimately a c-section... just like my "hippie" books said she would.

She trusted the technicians and the doctors. Does that make her stupid or bad? No.

Does she wish her doctor had fully informed her about inductions? Yes.

Would he have done so? Probably not. He really believes they're 100% safe and natural.

Was it her responsibility to have done the reading that might have told her otherwise?

Your answer to that may vary.


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## 3cuties (Mar 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *almadianna* 
so you are saying that we should put our faith and trust in a system that has not worked, is not working, and is to blame for the lack of information that women have? (the whole letting our caregivers inform us thing is what I mean of course...)
We have a for profit system in most countries and we definately have it here (i am talking mostly the US here so sorry to those that arent from here i am going to be US centric in this comment) how could we or should we be expected to put that responsibility into their hands?

you are advocating this instead of having women empower themselves and take control of their own life, their own choices, and their own births?


No, I have never once advocated that so I am not sure where you get that. What I am saying is lay blame where it is due. Criticize where the criticism is due. Attacking other women and patting our selves on the backs doesn't get us anywhere.

Women have a right to be presented with full choices.


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3cuties* 
No, I have never once advocated that so I am not sure where you get that. What I am saying is lay blame where it is due. Criticize where the criticism is due. Attacking other women and patting our selves on the backs doesn't get us anywhere.

Women have a right to be presented with full choices.

well when you say that midwives/doctors/caregivers should present us with choices and that women should not be held responsible for doing our own research you are basically putting trust and responsibility in a flawed system that isnt working already.


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Writerbird* 
Can I declare you both right?

I was in the middle of reading book #7 when a dear friend (a strong, smart woman) accepted an induction on her exact due date because her doctor - whom she trusted implicitly - said it was safe, that the chemicals were just like the ones her body made. She'd spent nine months hearing from her mother that the women in her family always went early. This repetition convinced my friend that she was "late" at exactly 40 weeks. Heck, she was sure she was at 40 weeks in the first place because the sonogram technician said so, even though she wasn't quite sure of her dates.

She ended up with painful labor, an internal monitor, and ultimately a c-section... just like my "hippie" books said she would.

She trusted the technicians and the doctors. Does that make her stupid or bad? No.

Does she wish her doctor had fully informed her about inductions? Yes.

Would he have done so? Probably not. He really believes they're 100% safe and natural.

Was it her responsibility to have done the reading that might have told her otherwise?

Your answer to that may vary.

I am sorry for your friend and to me it proves my point, but I know that I see it differently that other people may see it.. and it is ok. I think that different opinions are the reason that we are all here on MDC. We dont just take what we are given at face value... most of us are pretty opinionated I would say.


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## 3cuties (Mar 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *almadianna* 
well when you say that midwives/doctors/caregivers should present us with choices and that women should not be held responsible for doing our own research you are basically putting trust and responsibility in a flawed system that isnt working already.

I am not sure why you get that meaning. Because no, that is not what that means -- even the way you re-write it.

What it means is -- we deserve to have a medical/birth system that is evidenced based.

What it means -- I will say it again is that I do not blame women for getting caught up in a system that is designed to catch them up. I won't participate in saying, "well I did this, so they should too", because I have been there and I know how it happens. I have seen very smart educated and determined women end up there.

What it means is I blame the doctors and their educators and I want the system to change from the inside, from the top down.


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## LemonPie (Sep 18, 2006)

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3cuties
Actually your posts do judge them. And people cannot own their own "choices" without having full knowledge. There is not full disclosure in the current medical model but yet people believe there is.

almadianna:
i think this is the crucial point where we differ in opinion. I firmly believe it is our responsibility to get full knowledge because letting others give us this information is what got us in this situation in the first place.
I think the problem lies in the fact that "well-informed" can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Some women read the _What to Expect_ series and consider themselves "well-informed". Some simply just don't KNOW to question what their docs tell them. Some are so busy struggling to survive that sitting down to Google something or going to a public library is simply out of the question. And then there's us MDC mamas who question everyone and everything









Especially when it comes to women's health and childbirth issues, it's can be extremely difficult to find "the truth" as it were. Part of the problem is that there is no one-size-fit-all approach to the topic. Part of it is that there is NOT full disclosure in the medical profession. A huge part of it is our culture and media.

And some people just simply don't WANT to know. They'd prefer to continue on living in their little epidurals-are-safe-lah-lah-lah world and they get really angry if you disrupt that bubble, even if it isn't THEIR bubble you're disrupting. I was accused of fear-mongering just yesterday on another (non MDC) board because I gave a mother a few _facts_ about c-section risks. I find this a lot on mainstream boards with similar topics: breastfeeding, induction, caesarean, parenting, etc. You name it, there's a controversy. And if you have FACTS to support your statements, you are dismissed as using "fear techniques" or "scare tactics" or compared to a certain group of WW II soldiers.

Jen


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3cuties* 
I am not sure why you get that meaning. Because no, that is not what that means -- even the way you re-write it.

What it means is -- we deserve to have a medical/birth system that is evidenced based.

What it means -- I will say it again is that I do not blame women for getting caught up in a system that is designed to catch them up. I won't participate in saying, "well I did this, so they should too", because I have been there and I know how it happens. I have seen very smart educated and determined women end up there.

What it means is I blame the doctors and their educators and I want the system to change from the inside, from the top down.









We totally do deserve it. But we dont have one and we cant expect to have one with a for profit based medical system.

I blame them for the current situation we are in now and I too want it to change, but I cannot blame them for individual decisions that women make and I can expect women to take control if they chose to. It is possible if they want to. If they dont, they have that right as well. But we cannot just go around blaming society for it completely when we live in a world where we have options and information and libraries that we all have access to.


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## 3cuties (Mar 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *almadianna* 
We totally do deserve it. But we dont have one and we cant expect to have one with a for profit based medical system.

I blame them for the current situation we are in now and I too want it to change, but I cannot blame them for individual decisions that women make and I can expect women to take control if they chose to. It is possible if they want to. If they dont, they have that right as well. But we cannot just go around blaming society for it completely when we live in a world where we have options and information and libraries that we all have access to.

So how is that productive? To blame women who get caught up in it? Instead of critiquing what is the cause? How does that win women over or convince them? It doesn't.

Pushed, Business of Being Born, A Thinking Women's Guide -- all approach it in a way that looks at the systems and critques the system. It does not lay blame on the individual -- why? Because the problem is bigger than the individual. No one is going around "blaming" society as you say. Your argument that there are options and information and libraries does not get past my argument and others -- what about women who don't even know to look for the information? Who do not know to question? They won't go there b/c it doesn't occur to them.

But I just do not see it being productive to vent about women who get epidurals. If a woman who was considering questioning the system ventured onto MDC and saw this thread? How would she feel?


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2Bugs* 
Especially when it comes to women's health and childbirth issues, it's can be extremely difficult to find "the truth" as it were. Part of the problem is that there is no one-size-fit-all approach to the topic. Part of it is that there is NOT full disclosure in the medical profession. A huge part of it is our culture and media.

Jen

this is why i wouldnt even want them giving out information about choices to women, i dont trust them.


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3cuties* 
So how is that productive? To blame women who get caught up in it? Instead of critiquing what is the cause? How does that win women over or convince them? It doesn't.

Pushed, Business of Being Born, A Thinking Women's Guide -- all approach it in a way that looks at the systems and critques the system. It does not lay blame on the individual -- why? Because the problem is bigger than the individual. No one is going around "blaming" society as you say. Your argument that there are options and information and libraries does not get past my argument and others -- what about women who don't even know to look for the information? Who do not know to question? They won't go there b/c it doesn't occur to them.

But I just do not see it being productive to vent about women who get epidurals. If a woman who was considering questioning the system ventured onto MDC and saw this thread? How would she feel?

I dont think anyone is NOT critiquing it, but it is also being said that we should take control. Take it back.

I dont understand how someone would NOT question it, it is something that is a reflex in human beings... this making sure that we survive. It is instinctual. Isnt it?

If a women who was thinking about questioning the system saw this she would feel validated, that she is right in her decision to not just let people tell her what to do.


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## 3cuties (Mar 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *almadianna* 
IIf a women who was thinking about questioning the system saw this she would feel validated, that she is right in her decision to not just let people tell her what to do.

Not one who has perhaps had an elective induction or epidural gone bad. Your posts already feel attacking to me in that respect.


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3cuties* 
Not one who has perhaps had an elective induction or epidural gone bad. Your posts already feel attacking to me in that respect.

If she had a bad experience and is looking for a different experience (which is what I think you mean) I dont see how she would feel attacked at all. She probably is here because she is looking for something better and more information... my posts have done nothing more than applaud this.


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## 3cuties (Mar 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *almadianna* 
If she had a bad experience and is looking for a different experience (which is what I think you mean) I dont see how she would feel attacked at all. She probably is here because she is looking for something better and more information... my posts have done nothing more than applaud this.

They do lay blame for a previous experience.


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3cuties* 
They do lay blame for a previous experience.

you dont think that someone who didnt know any better would admit that their experience could have been avoided if they did know better?

Most of my friends who had bad experience and have now turned to the dark side (lol) readily admit that it was all based on their choices. Hell the things that went wrong in my case I readily admit that it was all me not finding information about it (mostly about jaundice in newborns and how to handle it). I dont see why this taking responsibility thing is a bad word.


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## 3cuties (Mar 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *almadianna* 
you dont think that someone who didnt know any better would admit that their experience could have been avoided if they did know better?

Most of my friends who had bad experience and have now turned to the dark side (lol) readily admit that it was all based on their choices. Hell the things that went wrong in my case I readily admit that it was all me not finding information about it (mostly about jaundice in newborns and how to handle it). I dont see why this taking responsibility thing is a bad word.

Maybe it could have been avoided, it is not a definite nothing is. But that is not the point, the blame and critique does not belong on them.

In 1999 when I hired a midwife and told him I wanted a natural birth, all he had to do (because he had all the experience and knowledge) was to ask me -- great, how do you plan to do this? How are you preparing? But he didn't -- so I assumed that was a validation of my choice. I told him I was taking the class at the hospital and they taught Lamazae breathing -- he said great. He could of said/done more. He could have offered me more information. Because his office that I saw him at was an outpost at the Planned Parenthood (where I received my prenatal care) there were no posters or information on preparing for natural birth that one often sees in a midwife's office. He knew it was my first birth. So yes, I do hold him responsible for not giving me the necessary education. Ultimately, the epidural was the only intervention (including IV of course) that I had in a very long difficult posterior labor, for which I am so thankful to him. But he had all the power and info and he did not share it. Could I have done research? I don't know if it existed in 1999 on the internet, maybe. I know the Bradley book was written decades ago, but my husband and I were separated at the time so I do not know if that would have appealed to me. Anyway, perhaps I could have avoided it, perhaps. But most women go to a careprovider for a reason -- for their knowledge and education -- and in my scenario he just did not share it.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

I did my first time around. Where did it come from? The idea of squeezing a watermelon out my bottom! PAIN! I was intensely afraid of the pain. Even the idea of the pain. Is that really so hard to understand???

To be honest, it wasn't until after I had DS and met some really cool moms in my neighborhood that were pretty crunchy . . . . had homebirthed . . .etc. . . . . that I could even conceive of NOT wanting one?

Really, I am still amazed at women who go in to childbirth more motivated by not having pain relief than by avoiding the pain?


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

I ended up with three epidurals - one for each birth. The first one I wanted from thetime I got pregnant. while I was crunchy in many ways, at that time I was of the "I wouldn't get dental work without pain relief, why the the hell would I push something that big out of my yoni without something to take the edge off?" school of thought. I figured I'd play it by ear, but didn't really do any research on med free birth until the very end. When labor hit me, it hit me hard and I got one soon after checking in.

With DD, I planned a natural birth but between the back labor and the hospitals monitoring rule about being on the monitor 20 minutes of every hour and the anisthesiologist who stopped by "to say hi" while I was in transition, I ended up getting one.

With DS2, I planned a medfree birth center birth. He came early and I was totally unprepared. My then 27 month old (and then 4 yo) were at the hospital with dh and I (too early for the birth center) and we couldn't get in touch with my mom to get them. Everytime I moaned through a cxn, dd would cry, the cxn would hurt more, dh couldn't figure out whether to comfort her or me, and it was a big clusterf*ck. I decided on an epi and a bout 5 minutes after it took affect, my mom came to ake the kids and about 10 minuites later, DS2 was crowning. It's sort of annoying how close I got to a med free birth.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

I did my first time around. Where did it come from? The idea of squeezing a watermelon out my bottom! PAIN! I was intensely afraid of the pain. Even the idea of the pain. Is that really so hard to understand???

To be honest, it wasn't until after I had DS and met some really cool moms in my neighborhood that were pretty crunchy . . . . had homebirthed . . .etc. . . . . that I could even conceive of NOT wanting one?

Really, I am still amazed at women who go in to childbirth more motivated by not having pain relief than by avoiding the pain?


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## UrbanCrunchyMama (Aug 7, 2007)

As the original poster, I wanted to chime in to let everyone know that I'm still reading everyone's replies and to clarify my original question.

What was my intent? Really, to understand someone else's perspective. I know where I'm coming from (pro med-free birth), and I was looking for first-hand experiences to better understand other moms' experiences.

When my husband's friend got pregnant, I sent her a lovingly written letter (no scary, fear-inducing stuff, just the positives that people rarely disclose about labor and birth), as well as _Ina May's Guide to Childbirth_ and _Birthing From Within_. I shared portions of our personal story and provided information.

Why did I reach out to her and her husband? There are hardly adequate analogies to make between birth and any other life event. But...if I had just hiked an amazing trail (both unexpectedly treacherous and unexpectedly awe-inspiring at the same time) and passed another group on the way back down the trail, my conscience would at least urge me to pass the information along to the other group of hikers. I would feel negligent otherwise.


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## Mom2Lex&Cay (Oct 14, 2007)

You've gotten a ton of replies, but I thought I'd chime in.

With my first I was young, uneducated, and very fearful. It was a 36 hour labor and at some point I was exhausted and scared, so I got the epidural for the last 4 hours of labor. It was my intent to go without, not because I believed in the benefits and that it was healthier, but I felt I was supposed to prove I could handle it. I was disappointed I "gave in."

With my 2nd I took the approach that I was going to get the epidural as soon as I was the least bit uncomfortable because afterall "you don't get a medal." Only that was the birth that taught me so much!

Because of my previous experience I wanted to stay home as long as possible with my 2nd. It turned out to be a quick labor and we almost didn't get to the hospital in time, leaving me without my epidural.

After the birth I felt fantastic, my baby was alert and latched on easily, I was able to bond with her....all the things I struggled with after my first. I also learned that birth is not scary and terribly painful. It is painful, but I was strong enough, I could cope, and it was not unbearable. I felt empowered!

I finally sought the information I needed, learned that the medical community had not told me the whole story. I have read and read and finally feel like I can make an educated decision about my 3rd birth.

I'm looking forward to my next birth! It will be our first attempted homebirth.


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## guest~*~ (Jul 11, 2007)

I prepared for a natural childbirth and after 16 hours of labor with absolutely no progression downward from the baby and incredible AMAZING pain, I had my first epidural of the labor.

What we didn't know was that I had a nerve tumor the size of a grapefruit growing off my S2 nerve (benign). Talk about being on my last nerve- I was in a WORLD of hurt. No one knew that's what was going on and that's why the baby never dropped.

The epi failed after just 4 hours, then I had a spinal which didn't "take" and then another epi that lasted just 45 minutes. I felt all of the pushing stage, and the stitches afterwards.

Thank God I had a vaginal delivery. Traumatic? Yes. Worth it? Completely.

As for next time... they've fully removed my tumor now via full abdominal incision. I debate whether or not I want to do it medicated next time. There's never a guarantee the epidural is going to work (as in my case).

Brittany


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## leafwood (Jun 15, 2004)

I didn't "sign up" for an epidural. I went into dd's birth wanting to be unmedicated. However, I started having contractions and either they came on very fast or I didn't notice the earlier stages. We were out to dinner and by the time I got home, passed my plug and had "show" I was completely freaked out (10pm). I remember clearly begging dh to get me to the hospital in time for an epidural.

Now, in retrospect, it would have been nice for him to try and calm me down and work through the labor, but I understand that he got just as freaked out as me and we wound up at the hospital (too early, 1cm dilated). My water broke when they checked me, I had an epi at 2am....at 7am they started pit telling me I wasn't contracting (which I insisted I was) and dd was born at 9:16 after 10m of pushing.

I am entering this birth with resolve NOT to have an epidural.....but I can understand being taking by suprise during a first labor, and hearing horror stories from others with the only "nice" outcome being an epidural may be enough to sway some people.


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