# SD's friend can't come over any more...and here's why.



## ProtoLawyer (Apr 16, 2007)

My SD, 5, had a friend (another girl, about 6) over last weekend. They played, it was uneventful, etc. She wants to have the friend over again this weekend, and the friend's mom said no.

*Why* she said no had me flipping mad:

1. While the mom knew SD's parents were divorced, she didn't realize it's was SD's DAD here, and not her mom.

2. She will not allow her child anywhere that a male will be the primary supervision of her daughter.

3. When my SO (who was already offended at the implication of #2, but kept that to himself while on the phone) told her that I was there the whole time, she said: "Well, she's not the mother. She's the stepmother. I'm sorry, but that doesn't count." When my SO asked if, then, the playdates could occur at her house or somewhere in public, she said, "no, I don't think it's in my child's best interest to play with a child who's dad is flaunting the other woman. Goodbye." Click.

(For the record...I am not the "other woman.")

Grr. SD, so far, has just been told that her friend can't play this weekend. My SO and I are both insulted.

Any advice on how, or whether, to tell SD that she can't see her friend any more? (She met this girl through a park program, which she's since outgrown, and she doesn't go to the same school. So this is probably it.)

Is this normal? Are we really at this point where all males are automatically disqualified as caregivers, even for an afternoon at the playground? (What would this woman do if her child had a male teacher -- or "worse," a male speech therapist who meets one-on-one?) Are children who are being raised by single dads just not allowed to have friends over at all?

Any insights will be helpful. Thanks.


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## SierraJ (Aug 29, 2007)

I would be completely offended, too, and honestly, I'd be concerned about my child at THEIR house. Sounds like something is very off balance there.

What a shame -- I feel sad for that family, how very limited in their thinking. I suppose something may have happened to make them react that way, but either way it's sad to have a loving father not able to be in the picture. That's not the state of the society I want to live in.

Talking to your daughter, I don't know...I'll be interested to see what others say. I'd be tempted to let the topic quietly go away as far as your daughter is concerned. You could tell her that her friend can't come over this weekend and y'all could find something else fun to do.

I'm sorry you had to go through this!


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

I have to know any males who are the caregivers of my children for any amount of time. I feel that it's best for the child and the man involved. I wouldn't let my husband be the caregiver of someone else's child because I would fear for my husband's safety if the girl did get abused somewhere else and my dh became a suspect. I know without a doubt that he wouldn't abuse a child, he doesn't even really like other people's children, so he would never willingly babysit anyway. I have let men watch my children before, but only after I felt very comfortable with it.

I remember once when I let a father watch my son on a playdate with his daughter, he was shocked. He was a SAHD and apparently, he'd been turned down for hosting playdates many times. I found that kind of sad.

But you were there, so it's a non-issue anyway, right? It sounds like maybe this woman has been cheated on and now sees you as a homewrecker without knowing the facts. She's got issues that are not your issues. It's sad for your daughter, but it's better to let these people go. Most people are not freaky like that (I hope).

I hope your daughter finds another good friend soon.
Lisa


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## sophiekat (Oct 29, 2005)

: i wonder where that would have left me, had i wanted to be her dd's friend -- raised by my dad after mum split with the "other man" (and flaunted him quite proudly, i might add. anywho, i digress.)

it sounds like this mom has ISSUES. i'd be tempted to write a snarky letter outlining the points you raised, but that probably wouldn't help things.







: i would maybe tell sd (if she asked) that this wasnt a good weekend for her friend to play.







how sad that these kids lose a friend due to an irrational mom.


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## fiddledebi (Nov 20, 2003)

That's horrible and offensive and ridiculous, IMO. I am so sorry for you and your family that you had to go through this.

I think how I'd handle it with your SD would depend on how close she is with the other kid. If you think there's a good chance that she'd forget about the other kid, I'd just leave it as "it didn't work out for this weekend, sweetie. do you want to invite someone else to play?" and then not bring up the other kid again. If this is a very special friend, someone SD will really miss, then I think maybe I would wait until SD asked about it and then leave out a lot of detail, and just say that her friend can't play anymore and you don't really understand why. And then you can talk about how it's sad when we don't see friends any more, and what she could do to make some new special friends.

Again, my heart goes out to you all.


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## 93085 (Oct 11, 2007)

I'm just really sorry about this, and I agree with the previous posters.

I do think I'd tend to be a little more cautious if my daughters were going to be cared for by a man--I'd make an effort to get to know him personally, and forgive me, but I'd probably do a little background checking. Fair or not (b/c I probably wouldn't do it for a woman), that's just what my instinct would have me do.

But this woman has made no such effort, and her subsequent comments betray the fact that what she really has a problem with is your quote-unquote "lifestyle," rather than your SO. I feel angry at her and sad for her kid--and yours.


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## ProtoLawyer (Apr 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisa49* 
I have to know any males who are the caregivers of my children for any amount of time. I feel that it's best for the child and the man involved.

This, I have no problem with...I like to at least know who I'm dropping SD off with, regardless of gender. I understand an abundance of caution.

And SD does have other friends, but she's very interested in this one right now...sigh...she does understand "can't play"/"busy" (and is remarkably accepting of it, given what else she'll throw a fit over).


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## tootersmom (Apr 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisa49* 
It sounds like maybe this woman has been cheated on and now sees you as a homewrecker without knowing the facts. She's got issues that are not your issues. It's sad for your daughter, but it's better to let these people go. Most people are not freaky like that (I hope).

I hope your daughter finds another good friend soon.
Lisa


I agree. It sounds to me like she's just projecting feelings about her own husband onto your SO. She probably has some deep issues anyway, and
I'd be more concerned about them rubbing off on _your_ SD than anything else. Look at it as a good thing - you found this out now, while you can shield your SD, rather than her hearing something that would be difficult for her to understand later.

If it were me I'd probably just do as PP said and let it pass without much explanation, if you can. Since they don't really see each other outside of playdates, hopefully it won't be an issue once some time passes.

I'm sorry this happened. It's so hard when kids finally find friends and their parents turn out to be such jerks!!

Just wanted to add, I'd have no problem with my child being supervised by a man, but I would want to make sure I felt he'd do a proper job - just the same as I do when it's a _woman_.


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## ProtoLawyer (Apr 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tootersmom* 
I'd be more concerned about them rubbing off on _your_ SD than anything else. Look at it as a good thing - you found this out now, while you can shield your SD, rather than her hearing something that would be difficult for her to understand later.

That's a good point...a good friend of mine has a daughter who's best friend's mother is a fundamentalist. My friend is not religious and was never married to her daughter's father, and her daughter came home crying and asking her mother what a bastard was, and why they were going to hell.


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## katheek77 (Mar 13, 2007)

I'm shocked. Literally shocked. First of all, the friend's mom can't seem to get her story straight...is it because her DD was with a male parent? Or is it because DD was at a house with an "other woman"? Or, huh????







: It seems very strange to me...it seems like there might be a back story somewhere with the comment about "flaunting the other woman". Maybe she had a bad divorce, or her parents did or her sister or something. I don't know...

I'm also surprised that people feel more strongly about needing to know a male supervisor of children more than a female supervisor of children. Yes, I'd want to know WHOEVER was supervising my child, but, male or female wouldn't make a difference. By FAR, most children are molested by family members...but that's a completely separate issue.

I'm not sure what I would tell my daughter in your shoes.







Maybe something about how her friend's family is having some problems right now and it's not a good time for her to play with her friend? It's not a lie, doesn't place blame on your daughter or her friend, and keeps open the possibility of future playdates. How sad for your daughter and her little friend.


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

Not normal but not your problem.


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## KaraBoo (Nov 22, 2001)

I hate to say it's "silly" cuz these are her feelings but I don't get it.

My daughter, nearly 9yrs, goes to hang out with her friend and friend's dad about four or five times a year. The mom stays at home with the baby and younger bro and it gives friend and friend's dad some time to themselves and sometimes they ask dd to go along. There have been times when the dad takes my daughter and all three of his kids to concerts or puppet shows or the park. No big deal to me. I know this man and trust him. Otherwise I wouldn't feel comfortable. But it has nothing to do with him being male. I'd need to feel comfortable with a woman/mom as well.

BUT I can respect someone else's wishes if they felt this way. It's a tough thing to explain to your daughter...would she accept, "This isn't a good time for playdates. But in time, maybe you can have Friend over when things are OK?"


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

That sucks.

I don't think this particular parent is going to be open to it no matter what. But if the objection were about you being a guy, I'd suggest playdates where the other dad (or mom) comes over too a few times, so they can get to know you.

Still is lousy all around though.


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## SierraJ (Aug 29, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pigpokey* 
Not normal but not your problem.

I agree completely!


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

I know exactly how you feel.

We have a houseful of girls that live a few townhouses over from our own townhouse. My ds (5) and dd (7, almost 8) had been planning a sleepover with them for WEEKS - it's all my kids talked about, non-stop. Their mom even said yes.

Then, the day of the event, all the kids got off the bus excited as could be. The girls went home to prepare for the sleepover and my dd was simply over the moon. Then, their mom's boyfriend said they couldn't have a sleepover.







Reason being, my bf could "go into the room at night and touch them".

My kids were totally heartbroken, to say the least. I can see the guy's point to a certain extent, but......... why let the poor kids get their hopes up for WEEKS planning the event and then pull this CRAP???

Ironically, this is dd's first year in a public school. Last December, she was in one of the best private schools on the east coast, and she had a sleepover for her birthday.... and most of the girls were allowed to sleep over, many of who's parents had never even been to our house before







:


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## happyhippiemama (Apr 1, 2004)

Seems as if the other mom has some serious bitterness issues going on about perhaps her own divorce, and her ex-h flaunting _his_ new woman.

Her issues, not yours.

Your poor SD. And that woman's poor DC.


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

:

I just can't imagine not letting my child associate with someone because their parents are divorced.


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## Petersmamma (Mar 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candiland* 









I know exactly how you feel.

We have a houseful of girls that live a few townhouses over from our own townhouse. My ds (5) and dd (7, almost 8) had been planning a sleepover with them for WEEKS - it's all my kids talked about, non-stop. Their mom even said yes.

Then, the day of the event, all the kids got off the bus excited as could be. The girls went home to prepare for the sleepover and my dd was simply over the moon. Then, their mom's boyfriend said they couldn't have a sleepover.







Reason being, my bf could "go into the room at night and touch them".

My kids were totally heartbroken, to say the least. I can see the guy's point to a certain extent, but......... why let the poor kids get their hopes up for WEEKS planning the event and then pull this CRAP???

Ironically, this is dd's first year in a public school. Last December, she was in one of the best private schools on the east coast, and she had a sleepover for her birthday.... and most of the girls were allowed to sleep over, many of who's parents had never even been to our house before







:

This is slightly OT, but the BOYFRIEND suggested this?? 'Cause that raises red flags for me (and my flags don't go up easily!!)


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## Petersmamma (Mar 28, 2006)

When I read your post, OP, I literally went









That's craziness. Considering that 50% of marriages will end in divorce, are we to assume that it's always 100% the man's fault and that he found some "hussy" to "flaunt" (not that YOU are, just an example!







)?

When I was growing up, there was a man and his gf (or wife, I dunno) who lived behind us and every other weekend his two daughters came to stay. I used to spend EVERY weekend they were there playing with them! And it wasn't weird, and no one ever thought the dad was anything other than a dad.

Sheesh. I'm just all irritated now because how many men are out there who are amazing people, dads, partners, etc, but get this really awful rep simply because SOME men are a$$es? It's really unfair to think that someone would not allow their child to play at my house because my dh was going to supervise and not me. Ugh.


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## kblackstone444 (Jun 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisa49* 
I have to know any males who are the caregivers of my children for any amount of time. I feel that it's best for the child and the man involved. I wouldn't let my husband be the caregiver of someone else's child because I would fear for my husband's safety if the girl did get abused somewhere else and my dh became a suspect. I know without a doubt that he wouldn't abuse a child, he doesn't even really like other people's children, so he would never willingly babysit anyway. I have let men watch my children before, but only after I felt very comfortable with it.

I remember once when I let a father watch my son on a playdate with his daughter, he was shocked. He was a SAHD and apparently, he'd been turned down for hosting playdates many times. I found that kind of sad.

But you were there, so it's a non-issue anyway, right? It sounds like maybe this woman has been cheated on and now sees you as a homewrecker without knowing the facts. She's got issues that are not your issues. It's sad for your daughter, but it's better to let these people go. Most people are not freaky like that (I hope).

I hope your daughter finds another good friend soon.
Lisa

My thoughts almost exactly. One other thought came to mind, is it possible that this woman has been "poisoned" by your stepdaughter's Mother?


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *katheek77* 
I'm shocked. Literally shocked. ...

Me too. For both of the reasons outlined by Katheek. I do not need to scrutinize male care givers any more closely than female care givers. I'm surprised and sad that it seems to be more common to do so. DH babysat as a teenagers in the 70s and he's MUCH better with children than me. He actually plays with them.....


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## MamaHen (Sep 25, 2006)

That makes me sad, too. DH is a wonderful dad and really invovled parent. Your poor kiddo.


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## ProtoLawyer (Apr 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *harleyhalfmoon* 
My thoughts almost exactly. One other thought came to mind, is it possible that this woman has been "poisoned" by your stepdaughter's Mother?

Pretty much impossible -- SD's mother lives in another (nearby) city, so I can't imagine they've even spoken to one another. (Remember, this lady was surprised to find out that SD's dad lived here rather than her mom.)

And we all enjoy a relatively decent relationship...SD's mom wants SD to have friends here. (SO: "We went to the pool with Jade and her mom, Kate." SD's mom: "Oh, good...I'm glad you all got some exercise...I hope you said hi to Kate for me.")

It's weird, how some people treat fathers...either they're all potential molesters, or they're incompetent. I can't even count how many times restaurant servers, the people with the samples at the market, etc., will turn to me and ask if it's OK if SD has something, right after her dad asks her if she wants it.

You all are right, though -- it's her issue. I wish it was an issue that didn't affect the kids, though.







:


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jescafa* 
I do think I'd tend to be a little more cautious if my daughters were going to be cared for by a man--I'd make an effort to get to know him personally, and forgive me, but I'd probably do a little background checking. Fair or not (b/c I probably wouldn't do it for a woman), that's just what my instinct would have me do.

I'm sorry, but your instinct is not telling you to get to a know a man personally, and not a woman. Your instinct isn't telling you to do any background checking, unless you're talking about something not seeming right about a _specific_ person.

By all means, take whatever precautions you feel are necessary with respect to the people who have charge of your kids. But, don't call it instinct when it's not. If you do get to know someone and find that you don't _feel_ comfortable leaving your kids with him/her, then I'd say that is your instincts doing their thing.

OP: I'd be offended, too. But, it's really her issue, not yours. I'm sorry your sd is being affected by this, though.


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

That is awful!!! I just don't understand the prejudice against men as caregivers.

One of my daughter's friend's parents divorced last year, and I remember another friend's mom saying that she could no longer bring her kids over when T was at her dad's house because "it wouldn't be appropriate" for her (the mom) to be in the house alone with him.







:

If it were my dd whose friend had such a ridiculous mom, I would tell her the truth. I wouldn't want to lie about it.


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## Lady Lilya (Jan 27, 2007)

Wait, it isn't just that he is male, right? She had no problem with her daughter coming over when she thought you were the biological mother and he was the stepfather. Why is your stepdaughter's father more dangerous to her daughter than your daughter's stepfather would be?


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## thebarkingbird (Dec 2, 2005)

good lord?! is this woman on shrooms? i had no idea they still made that model until i ran into a few myself. at my baby shower some of DH's family were talking about the bad influances at a kid's school saying they fealt sorry for the kids who had such parents. i thought they were talking about meth addicts. turns out they were talking about the children of divorced parents. i laughed and said i'd not even married my 1st sons' father. for a second i thought they were going to pack up their baby booties and head home!

i think it might be a bad call to tell SD that the woman won't let friend play because of the divorce or related issues. it's hard enough on a kid and she's young yet. of course i don't know what else to suggest you say so maybe the truth really is the best. you sure you couldn't have your DH talk to the mom again if the friendship is important to SD?


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Wow. When I read points 1 and 2 in the OP, I was getting ready to say that I could see where she was coming from, as in not wanting only a man at the house, especially a man she doesn't know. (Yes, it's unfair, and no, I don't subscribe to this blindly myself, but I always let a parent know if only dh would be home for the playdate. It's just a sad fact of life that we are more paranoid about men than women.)

But the rest? OMG, I just wouldn't even know where to start. I'm so sorry.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ProtoLawyer* 
This, I have no problem with...I like to at least know who I'm dropping SD off with, regardless of gender. I understand an abundance of caution.

I would have to *really* know an adult male who I'm 'dropping DD off' with. Like, really really know. It sucks but what is it? 95-98% of sexual abusers are heterosexual males in their adult sexual interactions? I read that stat a long time ago, but it is an overwhelming majority. And many, many children, especially girls, are victims of childhood sexual abuse. Like, a LOT.

I simply am not willing to take that risk. I put men through an extra screening, and honestly there are only a few who I trust with my daughter. I definitely trust a much larger number of women with her.

It sucks, but unfortunately until men stop molesting young girls, that is how it has to be. No offense against anyone's husband, and honestly I would expect my friends to understand that I need to protect my daughter. It's not personal. It's statistical.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

But, as someone else mentioned, what difference does it make if the man is the girl's father, living with the stepmother...or the mother, living with the stepfather?

OP: Was this woman totally unaware that there was a man living in the house at all?


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
But, as someone else mentioned, what difference does it make if the man is the girl's father, living with the stepmother...or the mother, living with the stepfather?


That's the crazy part, IMO.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Heck, one of my daughter's friends wasn't allowed to come for a sleepover because my son would be in the home. Whatever. I wasn't going to toss my boy to the curb for the night.


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## jdedmom (Jul 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I would have to *really* know an adult male who I'm 'dropping DD off' with. Like, really really know. It sucks but what is it? 95-98% of sexual abusers are heterosexual males in their adult sexual interactions? I read that stat a long time ago, but it is an overwhelming majority. And many, many children, especially girls, are victims of childhood sexual abuse. Like, a LOT.

I simply am not willing to take that risk. I put men through an extra screening, and honestly there are only a few who I trust with my daughter. I definitely trust a much larger number of women with her.

It sucks, but unfortunately until men stop molesting young girls, that is how it has to be. No offense against anyone's husband, and honestly I would expect my friends to understand that I need to protect my daughter. It's not personal. It's statistical.









:
I don't have a daughter but I am as cautious with my sons around men too.

With my history of sexual abuse....father of a friend, male babysitter and my own stepfather I can't help but be cautious of who is around my kids. As a child I was surprised when adult men didn't approach me in a sexual way because it happened so often.









And yes I know that women can sexually abuse too but I raise my kids based on my experiences, right or wrong.

I babysit often and if any parent were concerned about my husband being alone around the kids I would understand that. I'm glad that many of you don't have sexual abuse "issues" but please don't discount those of us that do.


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## kblackstone444 (Jun 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ProtoLawyer* 
Pretty much impossible -- SD's mother lives in another (nearby) city, so I can't imagine they've even spoken to one another. (Remember, this lady was surprised to find out that SD's dad lived here rather than her mom.)

Okay, Just asking. Personal experience, you know. Apparently, all divorced Fathers and their wives are evil.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lady Lilya* 
Why is your stepdaughter's father more dangerous to her daughter than your daughter's stepfather would be?

Good question.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I simply am not willing to take that risk. I put men through an extra screening, and honestly there are only a few who I trust with my daughter. I definitely trust a much larger number of women with her.

But why? Isn't it just as likely that you could send your child to someone's house that, because tney are female, you consider them "safe" and they could have a male friend or their brother or their male neighbor that could be in contact with them?


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jdedmom* 







:
I don't have a daughter but I am as cautious with my sons around men too.

With my history of sexual abuse....father of a friend, male babysitter and my own stepfather I can't help but be cautious of who is around my kids. As a child I was surprised when adult men didn't approach me in a sexual way because it happened so often.









And yes I know that women can sexually abuse too but I raise my kids based on my experiences, right or wrong.

I babysit often and if any parent were concerned about my husband being alone around the kids I would understand that. I'm glad that many of you don't have sexual abuse "issues" but please don't discount those of us that do.

Um, I have those issues, too. But the OP isn't even talking about her dp being "alone" with the kids.... she would be there, too. So I think what we're discussing: re: leaving our kids all alone with men we don't really know - is a totally different thread altogether. Right?


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *harleyhalfmoon* 
But why? Isn't it just as likely that you could send your child to someone's house that, because tney are female, you consider them "safe" and they could have a male friend or their brother or their male neighbor that could be in contact with them?

It is not 'just as likely' as a lone male caregiver, no. But at the same time, yes I am aware of who is around my child and how much supervision is given by the person in charge of keeping her safe, and I judge each situation according to those and other criteria.

Jdedmom - I am sorry to hear about your experiences. And, I wish stories like yours were less common. I hope for the day that they are!


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candiland* 
Um, I have those issues, too. But the OP isn't even talking about her dp being "alone" with the kids.... she would be there, too. So I think what we're discussing: re: leaving our kids all alone with men we don't really know - is a totally different thread altogether. Right?

I see it as on a continuum. Honestly I don't know what I would do in the situation presented by the OP. Would depend on how well I knew her and her partner.


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## yarngoddess (Dec 27, 2006)

You know, this sounds to me more about the SD's friends mothers betrayal in her own life- not the op and her so. I reallly don't think that this is about sexual abuse either. I think this woman believes that ALL divorces are the result of adultery, and that when the divorcee has a so- then she is automatically the "other woman". Total Melarkey!

I would count your blessings, as this lady seems to be a train wreck and you really don't want SD around such a disaster.
I would tell SD that the friend's mom doesn't want friend to come over anymore, because the mom has problems. I think that being honest to some degree would be benifical. IMHO that is!

ETA: I would be VERY upset and angry also!


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## BoringTales (Aug 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I would have to *really* know an adult male who I'm 'dropping DD off' with. Like, really really know. It sucks but what is it? 95-98% of sexual abusers are heterosexual males in their adult sexual interactions? I read that stat a long time ago, but it is an overwhelming majority. And many, many children, especially girls, are victims of childhood sexual abuse. Like, a LOT.

I simply am not willing to take that risk. I put men through an extra screening, and honestly there are only a few who I trust with my daughter. I definitely trust a much larger number of women with her.

It sucks, but unfortunately until men stop molesting young girls, that is how it has to be. No offense against anyone's husband, and honestly I would expect my friends to understand that I need to protect my daughter. It's not personal. It's statistical.

Yup...I agree. I don't have any girls, but we will be just as cautious with our sons as well...


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

For people concerned about men being around their kids -- why is the divorce and step-parenting even the issue? From your rationale, wouldn't it be just as risky to send your child to a home where both the child's parents are married to each other?


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
For people concerned about men being around their kids -- why is the divorce and step-parenting even the issue? From your rationale, wouldn't it be just as risky to send your child to a home where both the child's parents are married to each other?

Yep, it would. The whole divorce bit is ridiculous, IMO. But I understand not trusting men we don't know to care for our children, and i was responding to that part of the discussion. Married/not married makes no difference to me.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I see it as on a continuum. Honestly I don't know what I would do in the situation presented by the OP. Would depend on how well I knew her and her partner.

But would you make a distinction between a divorced/remarried couple and a first-time married couple? Isn't a man still whoever he is, regardless of how many times he's been married? Or has it been statistically proven that divorced men are more likely to be child-molesters?


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
But would you make a distinction between a divorced/remarried couple and a first-time married couple? Isn't a man still whoever he is, regardless of how many times he's been married? Or has it been statistically proven that divorced men are more likely to be child-molesters?

We cross-posted! I see from your answer to my previous post that you don't care about the divorce/remarriage bit.

I also wanted to add that I have to know people pretty well before I'm comfortable letting my 7yo play in their homes without me being there. I don't really distinguish between a mom or dad: an untrustworthy woman's just as dangerous because she's liable, as mentioned by a pp, to have untrustworthy males present (and not adequately supervise them herself) while my child's there, and that's just as dangerous IMO.


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## ProtoLawyer (Apr 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 

OP: Was this woman totally unaware that there was a man living in the house at all?

That, I don't know...she was surprised to get my SO on the phone and not me (or a woman in general), though...I can't imagine she'd restrict her child from going anywhere just because there was a man present. That poor kid couldn't go anywhere.

Happily, it's a nice day out, so we're able to go to the park and meet up with other "friends" (the type you see once in awhile at the part) and SD's not disappointed. Perhaps this will blow over.


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

I was raised by my dad (no stepmom) and had this happen a few times. This was in the early 80's though and I would have thought people got a clue between then and now but I guess not. It did hurt my feelings a little but more than that, I didn't understand why my mom not being there made any difference.








I'm sorry for your SD and your family.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I don't really distinguish between a mom or dad: an untrustworthy woman's just as dangerous because she's liable, as mentioned by a pp, to have untrustworthy males present (and not adequately supervise them herself) while my child's there, and that's just as dangerous IMO.

In my own experience with sexual abuse, the abuse _could not have happened_ (he had major physical handicaps) without the willing assistance of the man's wife. She made it easy for him to get access to us, _and_ she was the one who bought our silence, and made sure we knew it wasn't his fault. I never met anybody who would have hesitated to trust the evil UAV with their children, because everyone thought she was just wonderful.

Every friend I've ever had who has been sexually abused (roughly equally split between boys and girls, fwiw) has also mentioned the complicity of the women in question. So, I'd have to trust a woman just as much as a man...because as someone else mentioned, even if she's statistically unlikely to be sexually abusive herself, she's not so statistically unlikely to be aware of a man in her life who is sexually abusing children. I know at least one woman who I wouldn't leave my young children with, precisely because I know she'll twist the whole universe inside-out to avoid seeing unpleasant truths about her "friends".


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## kblackstone444 (Jun 17, 2007)

I know that some of the people posting have legitimate reasons to be leary of men taking care of their children because of their past, but it makes me very sad that every man is "suspect", like a witchhunt.







There is no one I would trust my children with more than my Husband.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *harleyhalfmoon* 
I know that some of the people posting have legitimate reasons to be leary of men taking care of their children because of their past, but it makes me very sad that every man is "suspect", like a witchhunt.







There is no one I would trust my children with more than my Husband.

It is not 'like a witchhunt,' and as a Pagan I am offended at the analogy. Do you know anything about the witch hunts?? Women tortured and murdered, for NOTHING. Absolutely ridiculous comparison.

Unfortunately, Men. Molest. Children. In large numbers, too large. That is statistically the reality. If you are sad, be sad that this is the case, and that it is so frequent that mothers feel we have to make it a priority to protect our children from those we should be able to trust.

I love it when the perp gets turned into the victim. Really ironic, and I find it usually only with the dominant group... poor them. Never mind that many among their ranks are actually sexually abusing our children! How dare we cast aspersions!

Please. I am glad you trust your husband. I trust my child's father, and a few good male friends. I am sorry I am not able to trust everyone without risking my child's safety. Now that is freaking sad.


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## kblackstone444 (Jun 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
It is not 'like a witchhunt,' and as a Pagan I am offended at the analogy. Do you know anything about the witch hunts?? Women tortured and murdered, for NOTHING. Absolutely ridiculous comparison..

Lets see, in the Salem witch hunts, if you had a mole or a birthmark. You were guilty. If no such mark was visible, you were accused of having an invisible mark. And you were guilty. You were accused of having made a pact with Satan. No proof neccesary, just the accusation. You were guilty. You were accused by another withc. Again, no proof needed, just the accusation. You were guilty. What your relationship was to an accused witch. Too close, and you were gulty. If you didn't go to church, you were gulty. If you had anything that could possibly be used for "black magic", you were guilty. If you were afraid when being accused, you were guilty. If you didn't cry when tortured, you were guilty. If you had sex with a demon, no proof needed, just the accusation, you were guilty. Sounds kinda silly, doesn't it? I never meant to offend you or anyone else who's Pagan, just so point out the "Mole=guilty/penis=guilty" similarities. Now read back at the posts and tell me that some of them don't sound like, "If you are a man, chances are, you are guilty."

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Unfortunately, Men. Molest. Children. In large numbers, too large. That is statistically the reality. If you are sad, be sad that this is the case, and that it is so frequent that mothers feel we have to make it a priority to protect our children from those we should be able to trust.

Like I said, now read back at the posts and tell me that it doesn't sounds like, "If you are a man, chances are, you are guilty." *ANYONE* can molest a child. *ANYONE* can abuse a child. Not just men. Men are just most likely to be believed to be guilty, whether of not they actually are.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I love it when the perp gets turned into the victim. Really ironic, and I find it usually only with the dominant group... poor them. Never mind that many among their ranks are actually sexually abusing our children! How dare we cast aspersions!

Wow. Just wow. I honestly don't know what to say. Maybe it would be easier for me just to say, "Yes, whatever you say. All men are either evil child molesters or are guilty because they are a man and a man can be a child molester." What if you had sons? Would you tell them that someday they will be evil, too, because, after all, they will be men someday and if they don't grow up to be child molesters, they will be men and that's close enough? Would you assume that they would be, because they would be male? Wow.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Please. I am glad you trust your husband. I trust my child's father, and a few good male friends. I am sorry I am not able to trust everyone without risking my child's safety. Now that is freaking sad.

I certainly don't trust everyone with my children. I'm fully aware that my children could be abused, sexually, emotionally, physically, verbally or witness any of these examples by *ANYONE* they come into contact with. I leave my children only with people I trust, male *OR* female. I wonder, though, do you *REALLY* trust your childrens' Father and your few good male friends with your children? *REALLY*? Because they *ARE*, after all, men.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *harleyhalfmoon* 
I never meant to offend you or anyone else who's Pagan, just so point out the "Mole=guilty/penis=guilty" similarities. Now read back at the posts and tell me that some of them don't sound like, "If you are a man, chances are, you are guilty."

Yeah well as of yet I don't have a torture chamber in my basement for people with moles and penises. So... not the same thing.

Quote:

Like I said, now read back at the posts and tell me that it doesn't sounds like, "If you are a man, chances are, you are guilty." *ANYONE* can molest a child. *ANYONE* can abuse a child. Not just men. Men are just most likely to be believed to be guilty, whether of not they actually are.
I don't think most men are guilty. Most child molesters are men. Most children who are sexually abused, are abused by men. That is the reality. It is not just that men get convicted; that is a very convenient belief. Also very dangerous because it is simply untrue.

Quote:

Yes, whatever you say. All men are either evil child molesters or are guilty because they are a man and a man can be a child molester." Do you have sons? Do they know that someday they will be evil, too, because, after all, they will be men someday and if they don't grow up to be child molesters, they will be men and that's close enough? Wow.
I am not saying all men are guilty. I am saying I have the right and responsibility to protect my child. Many, many children get molested, the vast majority by men. You do the math. I don't know if a lot of men are molesting children, or if it is just a few who get around a lot. I do know I will do my damndest to protect my child from that trauma, which has lifelong psychological consequences.

I do an extra screening for men, specifically considering the issue of child abuse and whether I trust them on that issue, before I leave her in their care.

I may well have a boy child growing in my belly, and if I do he will be raised to be an honourable and respectful man, one who understands the social context in which he lives, and hopefully one who will help shift the sexual entitlement issues in his gender, not perpetuate them.

I will not teach him that he is evil, because I do not believe that to be the case. However, I do believe that much harm has resulted from teaching men that they can take whatever they want in this world, including the bodies of children. I will teach him about history and responsibility and respectable manhood.

Quote:

I leave my children only with people I trust, male *OR* female. I wonder, though, do you *REALLY* trust your Husband and your few good male friends with your children? *REALLY*? Because they *ARE*, after all, men.
I don't have a husband, but thanks for the assumption. I trust her dad, and I trust a few good male friends. Because although they are men, I am confident that they 'get it' about childhood sexual abuse and are not going to perp. I have performed my 'extra screening' in my mind and they have passed it. I trust them. If I did not, I would not leave my child under their supervision.

And any man who would be offended that his gender makes him suspect on this issue is IMO not a man whose understanding of the gravity of this issue inspires my confidence. So he will suffer the torture of not being left in the care of my child.







That is how it is.

I would dearly love to see men's groups out in the streets protesting against the violence committed against women and children by their gender. And that violence has been pervasive, brutal, and ongoing. Instead they take to the streets to petition to lower child support.

I pray for change. And I pray for women to open our eyes and protect our children until that change occurs.


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## jaye (Mar 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *harleyhalfmoon* 
Maybe it would be easier for me just to say, "Yes, whatever you say. All men are either evil child molesters or are guilty because they are a man and a man can be a child molester." What if you had sons? Would you tell them that someday they will be evil, too, because, after all, they will be men someday and if they don't grow up to be child molesters, they will be men and that's close enough? Would you assume that they would be, because they would be male? Wow.










Are we reading the same posts?? Many kids have been sexually molested and the VAST majority of time it is by men. Are you seriously disagreeing with that?


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

But wouldn't you agree with Storm Bride that with most sexual-abuse cases, the perpetrator may be male, but there's usually a bystander who's female -- who either looks the other way, or takes a more active role in helping the perpetrator have access to victims?

Did you read Storm Bride's post? I think it's true that many people in our society are leery of men who show an interest in children -- which means the craftier perpetrators are going to bring a woman into the picture, preferably one so male-needy she'll ignore anything she'd really rather not be aware of. Or, even better, one so male-needy she'll be his accomplice.

So ... I repeat what I said before: screening the women is every bit as important as screening the men.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jaye* 
Are we reading the same posts?? Many kids have been sexually molested and the VAST majority of time it is by men. Are you seriously disagreeing with that?

Yeah I can't see how people are getting what they are getting out of thismama's posts.


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## jaye (Mar 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
But wouldn't you agree with Storm Bride that with most sexual-abuse cases, the perpetrator may be male, but there's usually a bystander who's female -- who either looks the other way, or takes a more active role in helping the perpetrator have access to victims?


I don't agree that this is the case with most sexual abuse cases.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Even my dp, who is a college professor and HS teacher, understood why the other woman's boyfriend was uneasy. He found it sad but understood it in the societal/cultural context in which we live.







:


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jaye* 
I don't agree that this is the case with most sexual abuse cases.

I agree. While this happens in some cases, certainly not "most".

I just want to add that while I like men very much and have had great relationships with them (father, husband, friends and neighbors), I would be more vigilant re: a male childcare giver.


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## SativaStarr (Jul 16, 2007)

Wow, ok thats just silly! I would be offended, but then again if this mom is that flippin crazy maybe its better off if SD isnt friends with this girl. Sad but true, some parents are just wacky and it sounds like this woman is one of them.. ugh, Im sorry you and SO had to deal with that. And its too bad your SD has to be hurt by this too









ETA: I havent read the other posts.. just the OP.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
But wouldn't you agree with Storm Bride that with most sexual-abuse cases, the perpetrator may be male, but there's usually a bystander who's female -- who either looks the other way, or takes a more active role in helping the perpetrator have access to victims?

You know what, I don't know. However, I would not trust a woman who said, "Oh it's so horrible that you don't truuuuust my man!" to be able/willing to protect my child. So, I would have to trust the man and the woman in a situation where my child is going to be left with them.

But with women the trust is more about whether she will protect the child from the man, at least that is what you are talking about. Not whether she will actually perp. Although that does happen, no doubt, it is much less common.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jaye* 
I don't agree that this is the case with most sexual abuse cases.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mom4tot* 
I agree. While this happens in some cases, certainly not "most".

While the tremendously abusive woman involved in my case is, imo, an exception, I don't think that women who are complicit by silence are an exception at all. I've lost track of how many posts I've read here by survivors of sexual abuse that include some variation on "I told my mom, and she said I was lying". How many women hook up with new boyfriends/husbands who molest their kids and completely ignore friends or family who tell them that they think something is wrong? When it comes to protecting our children from sexual abuse, assuming they'll be safer with a woman is only going to work if that woman has _no_ males around her at all...because many women blind themselves to what's going on with the men around them. (This, of course, ignores the fact that women can also abuse children.) I don't get an "extra" screening for a male who will be with my children. Why wouldn't we screen _everyone_ who will be in that position?

I have at least a dozen friends who were molested as children. Aside from a couple of cases involving staff members at schools, _every_ case involved a woman who chose to ignore what was going on, no matter how blatantly obvious it was. Leaving my kids with those women is just as likely to cause them to be sexually abused as leaving them with the men in question.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
You know what, I don't know. However, I would not trust a woman who said, "Oh it's so horrible that you don't truuuuust my man!" to be able/willing to protect my child. So, I would have to trust the man and the woman in a situation where my child is going to be left with them.

But with women the trust is more about whether she will protect the child from the man, at least that is what you are talking about. Not whether she will actually perp. Although that does happen, no doubt, it is much less common.

And, if she's the type who will tell you that there won't be any men there, because she thinks you're "paranoid", and then has her creepy boyfriend over...your trust is still placed with the wrong person, and your child still ends up sexually abused. I don't see how it matters who the actual perp is, once the child's been abused.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
But with women the trust is more about whether she will protect the child from the man, at least that is what you are talking about. Not whether she will actually perp. Although that does happen, no doubt, it is much less common.

I see your point -- but as far as trustworthiness goes, it's kind of the same quality whether you're looking at a man or a woman.

But I guess some of the signs might be different. An untrustworthy woman would be one who shows signs of being male-needy. I'm not sure what signs I'd look for to identify an untrustworthy man. What would you look for, thismama?


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candiland* 
Even my dp, who is a college professor and HS teacher, understood why the other woman's boyfriend was uneasy. He found it sad but understood it in the societal/cultural context in which we live.







:

You mean just uneasy in general about sending his girlfriend's children to an overnight, in any home where there's going to be a male present, whether that male is married to the mother or not?

As I've said before, I wouldn't send my child to an overnight (or even to play on her own) in the home of anyone I didn't fully trust. But the wierdness the OP experienced because she's the stepmom and the other mom didn't see her as "counting" -- that's just bizarre.

Also, since most parents are married or in some kind of couples relationship -- I guess people who are leery of any home where there's a male present won't be sending their children on many playdates or overnights. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing.

Like I said, I have to feel total trust, which means my 7yo currently just plays in yards where I can see her, when she's out playing in the neighborhood. She doesn't go in houses. I've noticed quite a few other parents have the same rule.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Also, one thing I've heard of, which I know I'll need to be wary of if anything ever happens to my dh, is that there are men who seek out relationships with single moms in order to get to their children.

The mothers often see these men as a real godsend, especially if their children don't have good relationships (or any relationships) with their own dads, because the new boyfriend takes such an interest in the children, often offering to take the kids to the park and other places so Mom can rest and have some time to herself.

I think it's a hard dilemma for any single mama who still wants a man in her life. Because of course you want someone who's going to love your kids and build a good relationship with them. So it's kind of sad to be suspect of any man who "shows too much interest in the kids."

I think some of my friends are wise, who in the early phase of getting to know a man, don't bring him around their kids. And I suppose it's easier on the kids in general, to protect them from potentially bonding with someone who's not likely to be around for the long haul.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Jumping in late.

I thought the OP was the father's live in girlfriend? Rather than the child's stepmother, I mean? I know many people would find that an objectionable home environment for their child to be exposed to, whether that be right or wrong.

I wonder if this is the real issue?


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
And, if she's the type who will tell you that there won't be any men there, because she thinks you're "paranoid", and then has her creepy boyfriend over...your trust is still placed with the wrong person, and your child still ends up sexually abused. I don't see how it matters who the actual perp is, once the child's been abused.

I'm not sure what you mean. If a woman provides access to a child for an abuser, she is not the perp. He is still the perp. She still sucks though, big time.

I don't leave my child with men who don't get this issue and whom I don't trust, or with women who minimize the importance of protecting children.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I see your point -- but as far as trustworthiness goes, it's kind of the same quality whether you're looking at a man or a woman.

Again, we are talking about men who perp vs. women who help men perp. Not the same thing, so no it's not the same among women and men.

Quote:

But I guess some of the signs might be different. An untrustworthy woman would be one who shows signs of being male-needy. I'm not sure what signs I'd look for to identify an untrustworthy man. What would you look for, thismama?
It is a highly individual thing. It's kind of a vibe. I don't just look for the absence of a suspicious vibe, but the presence of a positive one.

The men I trust IRL all are gentle men who are progressive parents, who believe in non-violence and who are pro-feminist both in philosophy and action. (DD's dad is imperfect in the 'action' bit







). They also respect psychotherapeutic processes and understand that child sexual abuse leaves children with big trauma to work through. In short, they 'get it.'

I judge each as they come, basically. But, I do judge.







Wish I didn't have to think about it.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Yeah, I certainly wouldn't trust one of my friend's husbands. Both my friend and her husband were sexually abused as children -- and one day he was trying to say that her abuse didn't hurt her like his hurt him. He insisted that little girls "like that kind of thing," and tried to get her to "admit" she really enjoyed it.







:That's just sick, sick, sick.

And no, he's certainly not pro-feminist -- though he doesn't have a problem with a woman making most or all of the money. He says women are built to be able to work harder than men: "There's no way a man could work all day (outside the home), and then come home and change diapers -- but for some reason a woman can."

I think he's sending pretty strong warning signals that he thinks females are made to take abuse -- and even like it.







:


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Also, if a dad insists his daughters have to wear their hair a certain way -- i.e., they have to have long hair, even if they want it shorter, that seems kind of sick.

I'm not talking about parents having a preference for their daughters' (or sons') hair to be long (or short), and keeping it that way when the children are happy with it, too, or are too young to express a preference one way or the other.

But if a girl wants her hair short and Mom or Dad don't "allow" it -- that seems over-controlling to me ... and in the case of the Dad, almost like he perceives his daughters as his "property" that he wants to look a certain way.

When I was involved with our church youth group years ago, one teen said she hated when her dad smacked her on the butt, and when she told him not to he said, "It's MY butt 'til you're married." That kind of weirded me out.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Yeah, mammal_mama, those dads you mention would definitely be off my list. Stories like this bring some understanding of why this is still such a common problem.


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## onemoremom (Jun 8, 2007)

I think the thing I find most strange about the situation in the OP is that, if these things are such a big deal to the other mom-why didn't she ask the questions BEFORE her daughter went over the first time? It doesn't seem like it would be very out of the ordinary to ask who will be present before sending you kid to someones home, you know?


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onemoremom* 
I think the thing I find most strange about the situation in the OP is that, if these things are such a big deal to the other mom-why didn't she ask the questions BEFORE her daughter went over the first time?

Yes. Truth is, unsupervised older brothers and their friends probably represent the greatest risk of sexual abuse for a young child. If she's sending her five year old over to a house full of bored teenaged boys, that's far more worrisome than a single father, in my mind. But she would have no way of knowing any of that since she apparently didn't check out the situation before sending her kid over to play.


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## devster4fun (Jan 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Yes. Truth is, unsupervised older brothers and their friends probably represent the greatest risk of sexual abuse for a young child. If she's sending her five year old over to a house full of bored teenaged boys, that's far more worrisome than a single father, in my mind. But she would have no way of knowing any of that since she apparently didn't check out the situation before sending her kid over to play.


Very interesting thread. Thought provoking, as the mom of a DD.

I know I am (in general) overly-cautious. But, I have to side with the thismama camp...mainly because there is no going back. IF something happens, it can never be undone and I could never forgive myself for "letting" it happen.

BUT, I'm not so sure I agree with this post. I would use extreme caution with either situation, if I didn't know the families very well. Overall, I still feel the one-on-one (predator/prey) scenario is more dangerous. The chance of secrets and lies staying hidden increases. I would hope, in a group of 5 teenage boys...one or two would have the common sense and good character to stop the rest.

And, I believe the hard facts state that males are FAR more likely to be the abuser in any situation. And, if a female is around "letting" it happen or aiding in any way, she is just as guilty, IMO. I think of it like homicide cases. Often the trigger man gets the same punishment as his accomplice who just stood by and held the door.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *devster4fun* 
BUT, I'm not so sure I agree with this post. I would use extreme caution with either situation, if I didn't know the families very well. Overall, I still feel the one-on-one (predator/prey) scenario is more dangerous. The chance of secrets and lies staying hidden increases. I would hope, in a group of 5 teenage boys...one or two would have the common sense and good character to stop the rest.

I see your point -- but then, I've heard of groups of teens doing more horrid things than most in the group would have been capable of doing individually. So, depending on the composition of the group, there might be safety in numbers, or there might be more lines crossed because "everybody's doing it."

But I agree that it's generally true that the one-on-one situation is more dangerous. That's why it seems so bizarre to me that many "experts" perceive a family-bed sleep situation as a potential molestation issue.

If there's a perv in the home (but hopefully there's not), I think the safer sleeping arrangement would be one where Mom, Dad, and the kids are all together. I think a molester has more one-on-one opportunities when each child has his or her own room or bed.

It's funny how little logic is sometimes used, when people outside the family are trying to evaluate risk for your family!







:


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Wow OP! That's crazy. At points 1 and 2, I kinda understood, though I still thought that lady was being kinda wierd. But point 3? Makes no sense at all. None. Geez, how illogical can one woman be?
Sorry you and your dp had to deal with that!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
It is not 'like a witchhunt,' and as a Pagan I am offended at the analogy.

Hey, I didn't know that. Hi there









I believe that even my dp (male) would screen an unknown man a little more carefully than a woman. But then, I imagine he'd screen both very well!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
I'm not sure what you mean. If a woman provides access to a child for an abuser, she is not the perp. He is still the perp. She still sucks though, big time.

I don't leave my child with men who don't get this issue and whom I don't trust, or with women who minimize the importance of protecting children.

I know a woman who seems to "get this issue", yet would happily tell you that she will be the only one home, and will them invite her boyfriend over if she wants the company. She's not deliberately providing access to a child for an abuser - he may not be an abuser. But, she would feel no hesitation about lying to another mom if that meant the kids would get their sleepover. She has the "my man would never do that" attitude, but she wouldn't tell another mom that...she'd just pretend he wouldn't be there.

So, my point is that putting the _men_ through an extra screening wouldn't do anything to a protect a child, if the woman involved happened to be of this type. If the boyfriend is an abuser (and she is in the category of single mom of small children, so it's not statistically unlikely that a pervert would target her and her kids), another mom could easily leave their kids with him without even knowing she was doing so...because she trusted the woman. The woman is presumed not to need "extra screening", but that leaves the children wide open to potential abuse.

No - she wouldn't be the perp. I thought the point was to protect the kids from abuse. If so, it doesn't matter who the perp actually _is_ - it matters whether the child is exposed to said perp...and trusting this particular woman could easily leave a child in that situation.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
But if a girl wants her hair short and Mom or Dad don't "allow" it -- that seems over-controlling to me ... and in the case of the Dad, almost like he perceives his daughters as his "property" that he wants to look a certain way.

Why the dad? Why is it okay for a _mom_ to dictate her daughter's appearance, and force her into a mold she's not comfortable with? I get just as much sense of ownership out of that as I do with a dad. I find parents of either gender who have that much emotional investment in their children's appearances a little "off", to be honest. (It still bothers me less than a woman who will circ with the stated reason that she wants her son to have "a pretty penis", though.)

Quote:

When I was involved with our church youth group years ago, one teen said she hated when her dad smacked her on the butt, and when she told him not to he said, "It's MY butt 'til you're married." That kind of weirded me out.
That doesn't "kind of" weird me out. That's downright creepy.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *devster4fun* 
Very interesting thread. Thought provoking, as the mom of a DD.

Why the mom of a dd? Lots of little boys are sexually abused, as well.


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## hanno (Oct 4, 2006)

op- This type of garbage is pretty normal, from what I can tell. I'm sorry your stepdaughter has to be affected by it.
The sexism in this thread alone is







:.


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## devster4fun (Jan 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Why the mom of a dd? Lots of little boys are sexually abused, as well.

I am an "older" 1st time Mom and never really thought about these issues before now.

Just speaking for myself...why it is thought provoking for ME. I realize boys are abused, too.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I know a woman who seems to "get this issue", yet would happily tell you that she will be the only one home, and will them invite her boyfriend over if she wants the company. She's not deliberately providing access to a child for an abuser - he may not be an abuser. But, she would feel no hesitation about lying to another mom if that meant the kids would get their sleepover. She has the "my man would never do that" attitude, but she wouldn't tell another mom that...she'd just pretend he wouldn't be there.

Well, my kid doesn't sleep over anywhere anyway. And if that happened, she would tell me about it, and that would be the last time she went over there, if I did not know and feel comfortable with the boyfriend.

I keep closer tabs on my kid's social life than that, so I can't really see that happening. At least not at this age.


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## Lady Lilya (Jan 27, 2007)

I grew up being the kid whose house everyone came to. It was rare for me or my sister to go play or sleepover at someone else's house. They all came to play or sleepover at our house. We were the ones with the stable home and regular meals and a parent always available. The other kids were mostly left home alone and given a few dollars to find their own dinner.

I plan to make our house the place where my children and their friends feel most comfortable playing and sleeping over. And I intend to always be there. Then at least I won't have to worry so much about other friends' parents.


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## katheek77 (Mar 13, 2007)

What I find interesting is that it's perfectly ok to be sexist (well, most perps are male, so we should scrutinize them more comfortably, and that's just being cautious), but if I came in and said, "Well, I didn't know her husband was African-American, and I won't let my child over there without more closely scrutinizing him, since I know African-Americans are disproportionately more likely to commit homicide", I'd be flamed from here to there.

(I'd never say that IRL, because I'm not about to stereotype a whole group of people, whether gender, race, etc. I'm using it as an example).

Why is it ok to act that way toward MEN as a group, when it's completely unacceptable and wrong to act that way toward another group?


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *katheek77* 
Why is it ok to act that way toward MEN as a group, when it's completely unacceptable and wrong to act that way toward another group?

You know what, I. Don't. Care. My job is to protect my child. That is what I will do. And if the worst I get called over it is "Reverse Discriminator," well I shall wear that badge proudly.

I think it is yet another example of misogyny actually, when people get up in arms about some dude not having the privilege of watching my child.







And yet they would happily expose children to the risk of being sexually abused, which is a VERY real and prevalent problem... ask around.

Downright scary.







:


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## devster4fun (Jan 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
You know what, I. Don't. Care. My job is to protect my child. That is what I will do. And if the worst I get called over it is "Reverse Discriminator," well I shall wear that badge proudly.


I agree...I could give a *bleep* if the person is male/female/white/black whatever. If I don't know them, she's not going to be hanging out or spending the night.

"93% of juvenile sexual assault victims knew their attacker; 34.2% were family members and 58.7% acquaintences. Only seven percent of the perpetrators were strangers to the victim, according to the 2000 Sexual Assault of Young Children as Reported to Law Enforcement. This study is available at the Bureau of Justice Statistics website"


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## katheek77 (Mar 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
You know what, I. Don't. Care. My job is to protect my child. That is what I will do. And if the worst I get called over it is "Reverse Discriminator," well I shall wear that badge proudly.

I think it is yet another example of misogyny actually, when people get up in arms about some dude not having the privilege of watching my child.







And yet they would happily expose children to the risk of being sexually abused, which is a VERY real and prevalent problem... ask around.

Downright scary.







:

No, it's an example of stereotyping an entire group of people because of a prejudice. Of course, I want to know who is watching my child, and I want to know who they are. But to determine that an entire group of people is suspect because of their gender/race/orientation/etc. is discrimination. I can't believe something like this is not only accepted, but promoted here. Nobody's getting up in arms about who watches your child; it's about someone proudly proclaiming that they have prejudice and justifying it with "I'm protecting my child".

Isn't that what people said 60 years ago when the white parents wouldn't let their children play with the African-American children? They were protecting their children, too, you know.

And i don't need to ask around...i was molested by my uncle (well, my father's cousin...we called him uncle) as a child. But, guess what, the majority of men in my childhood (in fact, *all* of them except for him) DIDN'T molest me. Should I write off an entire gender because of the actions of one person?


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## katheek77 (Mar 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *devster4fun* 
I agree...I could give a *bleep* if the person is male/female/white/black whatever. If I don't know them, she's not going to be hanging out or spending the night.

"

I completely agree with this. Of course you need to know who your child is spending the night with/hanging out with, regardless of gender/race/orientation/ethnicity, etc. My discussion with thismama is about the fact that she has stated that she would absolutely, positively scrutinize a male more closely than a female because of the mere fact of his gender.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *katheek77* 
No, it's an example of stereotyping an entire group of people because of a prejudice. Of course, I want to know who is watching my child, and I want to know who they are. But to determine that an entire group of people is suspect because of their gender/race/orientation/etc. is discrimination.

Oh sorry, did you not read the part where I said:

Quote:

I. Don't. Care.
??

Coz, truly I do not. This is not prejudice without a basis, it is statistical reality. Prejudice simply means prejudgment. I make prejudgments all the time and I would hope you do too. I prejudge that if I cross the road without looking I might get hit by a car.

The difficulty with prejudice socially (around race, gender, etc), is that it is usually based on **false** or inflamed data, and serves the purpose of excluding marginalized groups further and reinforcing the power position of the dominant group.

That problem has nothing at all to do with this issue.

Fully half my female lovers and friends who I know well enough to ask about this issue were sexually abused in their childhoods by at least one perp. 50%. 1 in 2, honest to Goddess, no exaggeration. All have long term trauma from it; some have recovered via much psychotherapy, while others find their relationships and sexuality are ruined by it still in adult life.

This is a big deal. It is a common deal, too. This is not a rarity or an infrequent issue. It happens all the time.

I would not give a







what group of people were responsible for 95-98% of molestations children endure. I would keep my child from them. I simply do not care what you think that makes me. I'd rather be called a few names than have my child endure this type of trauma.

I think failing to ignore this reality is downright irresponsible, and I carry my own judgments about women who take that position. However, I think it probably best to keep them to myself.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

I totally agree Thismama.
In this scenerio, I prefer to err on the side of caution.


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *katheek77* 
I completely agree with this. Of course you need to know who your child is spending the night with/hanging out with, regardless of gender/race/orientation/ethnicity, etc. My discussion with thismama is about the fact that she has stated that she would absolutely, positively scrutinize a male more closely than a female because of the mere fact of his gender.


We all make decisions about the care of our children every day. I do not believe it makes anyone "prejudice" to say they would scrutinize a male babysitter more closely. We are responsible for our kids safety. Our own gut/ experience/ fears/ dictate how we go about that. I don't think this issue is black and white. I certainly respect every parents right to make their own judgements about such an important issue as childcare or who a child visits.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *katheek77* 
...And i don't need to ask around...i was molested by my uncle (well, my father's cousin...we called him uncle) as a child. But, guess what, the majority of men in my childhood (in fact, *all* of them except for him) DIDN'T molest me. Should I write off an entire gender because of the actions of one person?

How sad that your mother didn't supervise you adequately to protect you from unnecessary exposure to risk.

You know, it's just common sense. When I was a resident sleeping in the hospital I would be on call with one of the male docs and we'd be assigned to sleep in the same room (different bed, obviously). Just the two of us, alone, spending any off time we could come up with in that little room together. So, out of respect for my husband and my marriage I would walk to the other side of the hospital, find an empty call room and hang there instead.

When I travel I don't spend a lot of time alone with male traveling companions. If dh is out of town and one of his friends drops by, I'm friendly but I don't invite him in for a drink.

A lot of what happens in life occurs because of the situations that we put ourselves in. I'm not going to put my daughter into a situation in which I have to rely on a man's integrity, self control, normalcy, what-have-you, to keep her from being victimized. Instead I'm going to make careful, informed judgments about each person, the situation, and the safety for my daughter.

I would never send my daughter over to a strange man's house to play unsupervised.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
How sad that your mother didn't supervise you adequately to protect you from unnecessary exposure to risk.
.

Any mother who has ever left her child with _anyone_, of either gender, for any length of time, without being there has failed to supervise that child adequately to protect them from unnecessary exposure to risk. We can make ourselves feel better by saying "oh - I have to protect my child, so I'll give men an extra screening". That's not protecting our children. That's making ourselves feel good about how much less negligent we are than all the moms who don't do an extra screening for men.

Most children - male and female (and the number of both genders that I know well enough to ask who have been sexually abused is greater than 50%) who have been sexually abused have been abused by someone they - and their families - know and trust...people who passed the "screenings".

My mother was completely unaware that when her father was rendered hemiplegic by a brain hemorraghe when I was 6 months old, the brain damage also turned him into a pedophile. She was totally unaware that her mother would hide something like that from her. She was totally unaware that this woman would set her own grandchildren up as victims of sexual abuse. All she did was let her kids spend the night with a grandmother they adored (not realizing that was largely bought with candy). She didn't "fail to supervise us adequately".

Maybe people shouldn't be so smug about how well they protect their kids until their kids are old enough to know if that "protection" actually counted for crap. I can be smug about how 4.5 year old dd has never been left with anyone I don't trust, too - she's never really been left with anyone for more than very brief periods. I don't do any extra screenings, because there are about four people - male or female - I'll leave her with at all. So what? She's 4.5! There's no way to keep her in a plastic bubble for the rest of her life, and that means she may well end up victimized at some point.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I would never send my daughter over to a strange man's house to play unsupervised.

Good for you. I won't send my daughter or my sons to a strange man's house - or a strange woman's house - to play unsupervised, either. Leaving my kids with people I don't know makes no sense to me.


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## katheek77 (Mar 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
How sad that your mother didn't supervise you adequately to protect you from unnecessary exposure to risk.

I would never send my daughter over to a strange man's house to play unsupervised.

First of all, thanks, but it wasn't my mother's fault (or my father's fault...why is blame being placed on the females for not "adequately" supervising?)...I was at my paternal grandmother's so I guess she was the one not adequately supervising...







? (well, my great-uncle's house, technically...she lived with my great-uncle/great-aunt to help take care of my great-aunt (alzheimer's), and the cousin was the great-uncle's son (I know, you need a family tree to figure this out)). Point being, nowhere even near being my mother's fault.

And I wouldn't send my daughter to a strange man's house either. Nor would I send her to a strange woman's, either. "Strange" is the key word in this situation for me, not "man" or "woman". I'm not going to live my life in fear and suspicion because of the actions of one person...it would be like if I'd been mugged by an African-American (or Hispanic, or Asian) and then decided I'd never be alone with a person of that race/ethnicity because of what had happened with a completely different person. Yes, I completely agree with checking out whoever will be at the place your child is playing, being cautious around new people, watching his/her interactions with your child, paying attention to whatever you gut is telling you, asking questions. THAT to me is common sense; singling (sp?) people out because of their race/gender/ethnicity is not to me. *shrug* I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. No worries.

And I need to finish watching the baseball game (Not a big cleveland fan







), so, y'all have a good night...


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## jdedmom (Jul 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *katheek77* 

And I wouldn't send my daughter to a strange man's house either. Nor would I send her to a strange woman's, either. "Strange" is the key word in this situation for me, not "man" or "woman". I'm not going to live my life in fear and suspicion because of the actions of one person...*it would be like if I'd been mugged by an African-American (or Hispanic, or Asian) and then decided I'd never be alone with a person of that race/ethnicity because of what had happened with a completely different person.* Yes, I completely agree with checking out whoever will be at the place your child is playing, being cautious around new people, watching his/her interactions with your child, paying attention to whatever you gut is telling you, asking questions. THAT to me is common sense; singling (sp?) people out because of their race/gender/ethnicity is not to me. *shrug* I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. No worries.

And I need to finish watching the baseball game (Not a big cleveland fan







), so, y'all have a good night...


Bolded mine....

And what if almost every time you were alone as a child with an African-American male (or Hispanic, or Asian) you were molested or sexually assalted? I think you may come away being prejudiced against against all African American males, rightfully...no, understandable....yes. In my reference and now I am recalling an a additional molestation by a fourth...FOURTH person. All four were white males, some relatives and some not. But all were white males, on the news its white males, from friends experiences it's white males....so I tend to be more cautious of white males. I'm sad that some without experiences with sexual abuse or trauma can discount the fear we live with every day that our own children would become victims themselves and will do ANYTHING to prevent it...ANYTHING!


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## kblackstone444 (Jun 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *katheek77* 
What I find interesting is that it's perfectly ok to be sexist (well, most perps are male, so we should scrutinize them more comfortably, and that's just being cautious), but if I came in and said, "Well, I didn't know her husband was African-American, and I won't let my child over there without more closely scrutinizing him, since I know African-Americans are disproportionately more likely to commit homicide", I'd be flamed from here to there.

(I'd never say that IRL, because I'm not about to stereotype a whole group of people, whether gender, race, etc. I'm using it as an example).

Why is it ok to act that way toward MEN as a group, when it's completely unacceptable and wrong to act that way toward another group?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *katheek77* 
No, it's an example of stereotyping an entire group of people because of a prejudice. Of course, I want to know who is watching my child, and I want to know who they are. But to determine that an entire group of people is suspect because of their gender/race/orientation/etc. is discrimination. I can't believe something like this is not only accepted, but promoted here. Nobody's getting up in arms about who watches your child; it's about someone proudly proclaiming that they have prejudice and justifying it with "I'm protecting my child".

Isn't that what people said 60 years ago when the white parents wouldn't let their children play with the African-American children? They were protecting their children, too, you know.

And i don't need to ask around...i was molested by my uncle (well, my father's cousin...we called him uncle) as a child. But, guess what, the majority of men in my childhood (in fact, *all* of them except for him) DIDN'T molest me. Should I write off an entire gender because of the actions of one person?


Quote:


Originally Posted by *katheek77* 
I completely agree with this. Of course you need to know who your child is spending the night with/hanging out with, regardless of gender/race/orientation/ethnicity, etc. My discussion with thismama is about the fact that she has stated that she would absolutely, positively scrutinize a male more closely than a female because of the mere fact of his gender.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *katheek77* 
First of all, thanks, but it wasn't my mother's fault (or my father's fault...why is blame being placed on the females for not "adequately" supervising?)...I was at my paternal grandmother's so I guess she was the one not adequately supervising...







? (well, my great-uncle's house, technically...she lived with my great-uncle/great-aunt to help take care of my great-aunt (alzheimer's), and the cousin was the great-uncle's son (I know, you need a family tree to figure this out)). Point being, nowhere even near being my mother's fault.

And I wouldn't send my daughter to a strange man's house either. Nor would I send her to a strange woman's, either. "Strange" is the key word in this situation for me, not "man" or "woman". I'm not going to live my life in fear and suspicion because of the actions of one person...it would be like if I'd been mugged by an African-American (or Hispanic, or Asian) and then decided I'd never be alone with a person of that race/ethnicity because of what had happened with a completely different person. Yes, I completely agree with checking out whoever will be at the place your child is playing, being cautious around new people, watching his/her interactions with your child, paying attention to whatever you gut is telling you, asking questions. THAT to me is common sense; singling (sp?) people out because of their race/gender/ethnicity is not to me. *shrug* I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. No worries.

And I need to finish watching the baseball game (Not a big cleveland fan







), so, y'all have a good night...

Thank you katheek77 for showing us the voice of reason. You said what I've been trying to put into words since page two of this thread. (Though you wrote it much more eloquently.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
How sad that your mother didn't supervise you adequately to protect you from unnecessary exposure to risk.

How sad that without knowing the details, you're quick to assume you know what happened in her life and blame it on her Mother not supervising her adequately. Unless you are with your child 24-7 and never away from them or asleep for a second, you're not supervising them adequately, if you want to put it like that.







:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
A lot of what happens in life occurs because of the situations that we put ourselves in.

Please tell me that's not blaming the victim! And if she didn't wear such a tight shirt or short skirt...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I would never send my daughter over to a strange man's house to play unsupervised.

You know what bothers me about all this? When people keep saying "I would never send my daughter over to a strange man's house to play unsupervised.". It just strikes me that if you're that careful about one type of person (a man), you're not that worried about another type of person (women), only that the other type of person (woman) might put your child in contact with the undesirable type (men). You're so concerned about what a *MAN* might do to your child, what if, God forbid, someday a *WOMAN* does something to your child and you're completely oblivious because you're expecting her Husband/boyfriend/brother to be the one to do it?


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Why the dad? Why is it okay for a _mom_ to dictate her daughter's appearance, and force her into a mold she's not comfortable with? I get just as much sense of ownership out of that as I do with a dad. I find parents of either gender who have that much emotional investment in their children's appearances a little "off", to be honest. (It still bothers me less than a woman who will circ with the stated reason that she wants her son to have "a pretty penis", though.)

True! It's just as controlling when a mother does it, and just as harmful. I'd just heard that most sexual abusers feel they "own" the women in their family, so it seemed like it might be -- well, not necessarily a "red flag" for sexual abuse in a man, I'm sure there are lots of men with this "ownership" attitude who are not pedophiles --

But it would still be a concern for me, if I knew one of dd's friends had a dad who acted like his dd was his personal property (I'm not talking about overprotective dads, but dads controlling appearance and the like -- and to clarify, not dads who don't want their daughters wearing too revealing clothes, but dads who want their dd's to "look" exactly how they want them to look).

Yeah, it's sick if a mother's like that, too. As I've said, I have to know people pretty well before my child plays in their home. And I understand what Storm Bride said about abuse usually happening with people the parents know and trust.

One thing that might help is that we don't leave our children with anyone besides dh or me until they express a readiness to be away from us. Our oldest was close to 4, and very verbal, when she reached this stage. And she had a good understanding of what body parts were private.

And at 4, she still wasn't separated for more than a short playdayes. She didn't feel comfortable staying overnight at a friend's until just recently (at 7) -- and of course she'll _always_ know we're available to come pick her up from anywhere anytime she wants to come home.

Our youngest, at 2 1/2, still hasn't expressed a readiness for separation, so we haven't left her with anyone yet.

Quote:

That doesn't "kind of" weird me out. That's downright creepy.
True.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

The politically correct thing to say might be that men and women are equally suspect, but that is not statistically correct. I deal with reality. Men are more likely than women to sexually abuse a child. That is a simple fact.


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## Quinalla (May 23, 2005)

I can understand if she wanted to get to know you better and I can also understand being more hesitant with a male caregiver than female because of the statistics (sad but reality), but the latter isn't even relevant anyway in this case. However, if she really cared that much about these things she would have found out more about you before letting her child over the first time and it doesn't sound like she is willing to get to know parents of her child's friends for whatever reason which is silly IMO if she is this concerned about her child's safety.

I think her main beef may have been a divorcee that has a new partner and maybe there is something else going on to that she is trying to cover with the rest of it.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

My comment wasn't about the situation in the OP though. I think this is about some baggage the other mom has rather than the fact that there is a man in the house.

If I'm comfortable with the people, my kid can be there, but it takes more for me to reach that level of comfort with a man than a woman.


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## Lady Lilya (Jan 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
You know what, I. Don't. Care. My job is to protect my child. That is what I will do.

It may be profiling. But, the priority is the child, not the man.


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## 93085 (Oct 11, 2007)

I agree with ThisMama and others. I may do so apologetically, but yes, I will be more cautious with a man as a caregiver for my daughters. I still don't think that in any way justifies the comments and actions of the mom mentioned in the OP.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
The politically correct thing to say might be that men and women are equally suspect, but that is not statistically correct. I deal with reality. Men are more likely than women to sexually abuse a child. That is a simple fact.

I'm the last person anyone ever accused of being politically correct, but that's okay.

I don't care about statistics. If there's only one woman in the whole world who would sexually abuse a child, and I leave my kid with her, the statistics really don't matter, do they? I care about the specific person/people my child is with. Besides...while sexual abuse is absolutely vile, it's not the only kind of abuse there is. I'm not going to be feeling too self-congratulatory about how well I protected my kids, if they get through to adult without having been sexually abused, but I find out someone was emotionally abusing them for years, yk?

When we categorize men in our heads as being high risk to hurt our kids, I think we simultaneously cloak women in an imaginary cloak of harmlessness. That's the part of the focus on men that scares me - this mindset does include a certain amount of "innocence by contrast" where women are concerned...and a lack of a penis doesn't mean someone can't/won't harm children.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
If there's only one woman in the whole world who would sexually abuse a child, and I leave my kid with her, the statistics really don't matter, do they?

Well... that's technically true. But, if there is only one woman in the whole world who would sexually abuse a child, then the chances of you leaving your child with her are only one in 6 billion.

So... statistics do matter.







:

Quote:

Besides...while sexual abuse is absolutely vile, it's not the only kind of abuse there is.
True. But it is pretty unlikely that another parent is going to physically (non sexually) assault a friend's child while in their care. They would just send her home if they were becoming so enraged that they wanted to physically lash out. And, if someone did assault her physically or treat her badly emotionally, she would probably tell me, we would talk about it and I would not send her back there.

Sexual abuse is different, because it is so often a child's first experience of sexuality, and it can involve coercion, blame and pressure to maintain secrecy. Not the same thing as a one time physical assault or cruel emotional words.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
The difficulty with prejudice socially (around race, gender, etc), is that it is usually based on **false** or inflamed data, and serves the purpose of excluding marginalized groups further and reinforcing the power position of the dominant group.

That problem has nothing at all to do with this issue.









This was said so eloquently, I feel it had to be repeated. By saying men make up the vast majority of child molesters does not marginalize "men" and reinforce the power position of the dominant group......... because men ARE the dominant group to begin with. That's what makes this much, much different than other examples used: ie, the African-American homicide analogy.


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## ProtoLawyer (Apr 16, 2007)

Wow, this thread's gone in some weird (but expected, I suppose) directions.

Anyhow, to whoever asked if I was married to my SO: No. But it's a long-term partnership, functionally like marriage (though not legally -- we've got shared finances and mutual wills and powers of attorney and all that) and we will formalize it eventually. I use "SD" here because I'm not big on the "D-" prefix ("DSD") and it's good shorthand otherwise, as the issues are the same. (I'll use "future stepdaughter" IRL if necessary, or "SO's daughter.") As for whether that was the issue with the mother: I doubt it's that simple (see below) -- but I'm not sure if she knew whether we were married or not. It's not something I hide, but not something I go out of my way to mention explicitly (why would I?). If that was the issue, I'd rather she mention that directly. At least the objection wouldn't seem so odd.

And as for why this mother only found this stuff out after the playdate -- she made an assumption, I guess, and found out after the playdate that her assumption was incorrect.

BUT, the real reason I'm posting:
The plot thickens...I got curious and ran her name through my state's court system Web site (it's a public database, lots of people use it for background checks, even though it's not the most accurate way of finding things out) and found out she divorced in 2004 AND has a restraining order against a male, not her ex-husband, who shared an address with her at the time the order was requested in late 2006. I ran a check on the male with the restraining order against him and found he's awaiting trial on "disorderly conduct." (He also has a 2002 no-contest plea to theft, but that's neither here nor there.) That could be anything, including a downgraded domestic battery. He has a new address, at least.

So...yeah, while this COULD be anything, whoever suggested that perhaps the mom is projecting her own issues onto everyone is quite possibly...right.

I know my SO doesn't want to restrict SD's friendships based on the friends' parents (that's why we like playdates here or in public)... but perhaps it's for the best.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

ProtoLawyer, I think this thread went the way it did because there is not much controversy in the fact that you are long term partners but unmarried. It is clear to most that that should not matter. The issue for debate is in the male caregiver factor.

It also does sound like the mother has issues, and sounds like you uncovered some possible information about why.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Now that I've learned some of the "scoop" on this woman -- I don't think I'd want to send my child to HER house.







But then, at least she followed through on her restraining order, and didn't drop it, like so many women do.

Still, she sounds really psycho, not someone I'd want my children in contact with.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Well... that's technically true. But, if there is only one woman in the whole world who would sexually abuse a child, then the chances of you leaving your child with her are only one in 6 billion.

So... statistics do matter.







:

We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't care if there's only one woman in the world who would sexually abuse a child. I have no way of knowing if any given woman is that woman...so I give an "extra screening" to anybody with whom I'm going to leave my child.

Quote:

True. But it is pretty unlikely that another parent is going to physically (non sexually) assault a friend's child while in their care. They would just send her home if they were becoming so enraged that they wanted to physically lash out.
You think? I don't. If the person in question feels that corporal punishment is okay, they may very well think they're doing your child a favour by smacking her around.

Quote:

Sexual abuse is different, because it is so often a child's first experience of sexuality, and it can involve coercion, blame and pressure to maintain secrecy. Not the same thing as a one time physical assault or cruel emotional words.
hmm...I was sexually abused, and emotionally abused even further by his wife. Oddly enough, it was her "cruel emotional words" that left the really bad scars...and her emotional manipulation (ie. "coercion, blame and pressure") that kept me in the sexually abusive situation. That kind of thing can also occur independently of sexual abuse, and I know 8 children right now who I know are living with it every day of their lives...at the hands of their _mother_.

I'm also of the opinion that there are other forms of sexual abuse, besides actual molestation. The not-uncommon game of shaming female (or male) children for their sexual urges and behaviour - the attempts to make a daughter feel like a whore because she's reaching a tumultuous phase in her sexual development - the attempts to force a girl into a sexual mode that suits the parent...I've seen that and more from _mothers_, and it screws girls up sexually - not in the same way as being molested, but it definitely does mess with their sexuality.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't care if there's only one woman in the world who would sexually abuse a child. I have no way of knowing if any given woman is that woman...so I give an "extra screening" to anybody with whom I'm going to leave my child.

Nothing wrong with that. However, you said the stats don't matter, and your reasoning for that was illogical IMO. Stats do matter.

Quote:

You think? I don't. If the person in question feels that corporal punishment is okay, they may very well think they're doing your child a favour by smacking her around.
Well, I'm not going to leave my child with someone whose views on corporal punishment I'm not familiar with.







:

Quote:

hmm...I was sexually abused, and emotionally abused even further by his wife. Oddly enough, it was her "cruel emotional words" that left the really bad scars...and her emotional manipulation (ie. "coercion, blame and pressure") that kept me in the sexually abusive situation. That kind of thing can also occur independently of sexual abuse, and I know 8 children right now who I know are living with it every day of their lives...at the hands of their _mother_.
Hey, I agree that mothers can be emotionally abusive. I just don't see what that has remotely to do with this issue.

Quote:

I'm also of the opinion that there are other forms of sexual abuse, besides actual molestation. The not-uncommon game of shaming female (or male) children for their sexual urges and behaviour - the attempts to make a daughter feel like a whore because she's reaching a tumultuous phase in her sexual development - the attempts to force a girl into a sexual mode that suits the parent...I've seen that and more from _mothers_, and it screws girls up sexually - not in the same way as being molested, but it definitely does mess with their sexuality.
Sure. But again, we're talking about mothers and daughters, vs. selecting a temporary caregiver for our children. Not what we are talking about in this thread.

I wouldn't leave my child with a woman who would say shaming things about my child's sexuality to her, of course. But again, that's a whole other level than actually being sexually abused, and not really the same discussion IMO.

I know the people who watch my child when I am not there pretty darn well. And I am extra careful with men. That is what I am saying, nothing more.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Fair enough. I don't get being "extra" careful with men, myself.

I guess the biggest area where we don't see each other's point here is that you seem to be willing to accept the women as being whatever they self-represent themselves as. I'm not. I've met too many hypocritical women who appear in public - and even to friends - as whatever they think will serve their purposes, and turn into hellhounds when people's backs are turned. I can guarantee that _nobody_ ever thought twice about leaving their children in the care of my oh-so-sweet grandmother, for example.

ETA: Thismama...are you supposed to be back here, or should I shoo you off to your homework?


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Fair enough. I don't get being "extra" careful with men, myself.

I guess the biggest area where we don't see each other's point here is that you seem to be willing to accept the women as being whatever they self-represent themselves as. I'm not.

I never said anything of the sort, that is all your own projection IMO.

Quote:

ETA: Thismama...are you supposed to be back here, or should I shoo you off to your homework?
















No, I am not supposed to be here. But OMG my brain is numb. Heading back to it...


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## alaskaberry (Dec 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ProtoLawyer* 

Any advice on how, or whether, to tell SD that she can't see her friend any more? (She met this girl through a park program, which she's since outgrown, and she doesn't go to the same school. So this is probably it.)

Is this normal? Are we really at this point where all males are automatically disqualified as caregivers, even for an afternoon at the playground? (What would this woman do if her child had a male teacher -- or "worse," a male speech therapist who meets one-on-one?) Are children who are being raised by single dads just not allowed to have friends over at all?

Any insights will be helpful. Thanks.

Wow. That mom's got issues. Sounds like she was cheated on. She sounds pretty bitter about it too. (Not implying that your SO cheated on the x with you either! But my guess is she had a prob with her husband or a fam member's husband so now she thinks ALL men are like that!)

I think that's probably going to have to be "it", I doubt the mom will get over her issues. Just tell your daughter that her friend's mommy is having "adult problems". Or something that is closest to the truth that would make sense for her.


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## DaffyDaphne (Aug 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
This is not prejudice without a basis, it is statistical reality.....

The difficulty with prejudice socially (around race, gender, etc), is that it is usually based on **false** or inflamed data, and serves the purpose of excluding marginalized groups further and reinforcing the power position of the dominant group. ....


But it's no more a inflamed or false data to say that the majority of violent crimes (murder, assault, rape) are committed by African American males -- they are. Are there mitigating and explanatory adjustments that should be made to those statistics that would give us a truer picture of the situation? Absolutely. Just as there are mitigating and explanatory adjustments that should be made to the statistics on molestation that would give us a truer picture of the situation.

As someone pointed out upthread, 50 years ago white parents in the Arkansas public schools were just protecting their kids as they saw it, too.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DaffyDaphne* 
But it's no more a inflamed or false data to say that the majority of violent crimes (murder, assault, rape) are committed by African American males -- they are. Are there mitigating and explanatory adjustments that should be made to those statistics that would give us a truer picture of the situation? Absolutely.

Yes, there are.

Quote:

Just as there are mitigating and explanatory adjustments that should be made to the statistics on molestation that would give us a truer picture of the situation.
No, there are not. I know women who in childhood were molested by older male siblings, adolescent neighbours, uncles, fathers, step-fathers, grandfathers, the dude whose house they walked by on the way home from school... the list goes on.

Honestly, truly 50% of my female friends and lovers were molested in childhood, all by men. Not one of those men was ever criminally convicted of the crime. They remain free and unchallenged, and I am sure they have made more victims.

LOTS and LOTS of girls (and also many boys) get molested in childhood, by male relatives, friends, and acquaintances, in seemingly random circumstances that could not be predicted. These men look and act like everybody else, and they are everywhere.

It sucks, but it is what it is. There are no mitigating statistics on this issue that will keep my daughter safe.

Except me. And I am one fierce







of a mitigating statistic.

I was surprised to see this thread come up in new posts. I thought it must have gotten pulled.


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## DaffyDaphne (Aug 30, 2007)

I'm sorry that this is so difficult for you, and wish you much peace.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DaffyDaphne* 
I'm sorry that this is so difficult for you, and wish you much peace.









What a passive aggressive non-response to the issue.

It's not difficult for me at all, apart from the fact that child molestation sucks. I would hope that's no less difficult for you than it is for me. I have much peace. I am simply not naive in my approach to the issue.

I wish you much open-eyed clarity and the strength to protect your children.

ETA - And you know, this whole "OMGZ it's like racism!" line of thinking is non-sensical and a real distraction. If you lived in an area where there were random drive-by shootings and children were being killed, would you send your children to play in your front yard unsupervised?

I would hope not. Just basic common sense. That is not 'discrimination.' Fact is children unsupervised with men can = molestation as much as children playing outside while drive bys are going on can = murder.

Pretty simple equation.


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## DaffyDaphne (Aug 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 







What a passive aggressive non-response to the issue.


I'm sorry you feel that way, it sure wasn't meant to be. The rest of your post reinforced my feelings, though.

I really do wish you gentleness and peace.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DaffyDaphne* 
I'm sorry you feel that way, it sure wasn't meant to be. The rest of your post reinforced my feelings, though.

I really do wish you gentleness and peace.

And I wish for you to participate in an direct and logical way in the discussion. You know, actually respond to my points, and I respond to your points... the usual way people have a genuine conversation.

Until then, peace out.


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## DaffyDaphne (Aug 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
And I wish for you to participate in an direct and logical way in the discussion. You know, actually respond to my points, and I respond to your points... the usual way people have a genuine conversation.

Until then, peace out.

Peace out.


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## Mandynee22 (Nov 20, 2006)

It seems to me that this isn't even about a man being there. I think the other mom is mad about the divorced part. Is she very religious, perhaps? Maybe she was cheated on and relates to your DH's ex. There could be a lot of reasons (however odd) for this.
If it were about a man, then playdate number one never would have happened.
I wouldn't tell SD why, personally. If she ever runs into the girl, you don't want her telling her anything bad about her parents. I would just say that it isn't a good time and leave it at that.


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