# are humans the only mammals who tear during brith?



## swissmiss2584 (Dec 29, 2007)

I was thinking one day after my friend's dog had puppies, are humans the only mammals who can tear during birth?

Also, do other mammals experience birth pains? I don't think I've ever heard a dog or cat cry out while in labor.


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## tinyshoes (Mar 6, 2002)

*good question!!!!*


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## desertpenguin (Apr 15, 2005)

i think probably that humans _are_ the only animals that tear during birth, but i have no proof of that. it's just my own uneducated opinion. i do, however, believe that they feel pain. they just _look_ to me like they are in pain...very focused but in pain. they breathe differently and everything. i think the reason why most animals do not call out in labor is because it would be a beacon to any would-be predators.


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## queenjulie (Oct 26, 2007)

I've heard theories that the reason humans feel such pain during birth is because we evolved large brains, and therefore large heads, relatively quickly, without also evolving larger pelvises. That makes it harder for us to give birth then other animals.


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## Catherine12 (May 15, 2006)

I breed dogs - I've delivered over 100 puppies, from several different mothers. I have only seen two tears, and they were both minor (as in, you could barey see them) and both after complicated births. So I would say, 99% of the time dogs don't tear and it is rarely if ever a big deal when they do.

As for crying out in labor - I have seen this several times, though it is more common that they keep entirely quiet. One of my dogs tends to whimper a bit during first stage contractions. When it's their first time, or for an especially big puppy, the mother will sometimes yelp a little as the pup comes out. It seems to depend on the dog how vocal they are.

Another way they show their discomfort is by "nesting", which in dogs means scratching the ground (or your carpet, or their bedding, whatever) vigorously. Supposedly they do this to prepare a "nest" for the puppies, but they seem to do it mostly during contractions, so I think it is also a way to deal with the sensations of labor.

Mostly, they do not seem to be in pain during labor, especially when it's not their first time. But I'd say they still have to work through it like a human mother does.


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## soso-lynn (Dec 11, 2007)

I tend to assume that if we forced a dog to lie on her back with her legs up and an epidural, she might tear too.

I also remember a story from when I was a child a cow that had a huge tear and almost bled to death. It stayed in my head because the owner was so worried and compassionate about his cows, yet was herding them to kill them and eat them.


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## barefootpoetry (Jul 19, 2007)

My mother bred dogs too, and I witnessed many births as a preteen/teenager. I vividly remember one mama doggie pacing, panting nervously and whimpering in pain while in labor. She made high-pitched straining noises while pushing, but they were sort of to the back of her throat so it wasn't like a full-on scream or anything. So you could tell she was hurting.

Regardless, you've got to admit that we humans are kind of set up pretty crappy for giving birth. There really are no other species that have so many difficulties with it.


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## Spark (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soso-lynn* 
I tend to assume that if we forced a dog to lie on her back with her legs up and an epidural, she might tear too.


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## turtlewomyn (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soso-lynn* 
I also remember a story from when I was a child a cow that had a huge tear and almost bled to death. It stayed in my head because the owner was so worried and compassionate about his cows, yet was herding them to kill them and eat them.

I worked on a couple of dairy farms as a teenager(so, a little bit different than meat cows). I had experience with two different owners. I think for many, it is a matter of money. Those cows are money to them, so if they are a good farmer they want to keep them alive and healthy (the first farmer I worked for was not a good farmer, at all). The second farm I worked on the owner had been through vet school and loved animals. While she still shipped the male calves off to be raised for meat (after all, it is about money). She believed that all her cows deserved good treatment, and to be kept healthy and well.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjulie* 
I've heard theories that the reason humans feel such pain during birth is because we evolved large brains, and therefore large heads, relatively quickly, without also evolving larger pelvises. That makes it harder for us to give birth then other animals.

From what I have read the issue is bipedalism. When we became upright walkers our pelvis had to change, and it was more difficult to fit the head in there (hence, positioning of the infant becomes very important in birth). We also do have a large brain and head in comparison to similar sized mammals, I think we compensated by birthing a relatively (in comparison to other primates) helpless infant, so their heads are as small as possible.

That being said, tearing is really dealing with the soft tissues, not the bone structure, so that would be more related to speed of birth, position of mother, positioning as well (thinking nuchal hands and such), etc.


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## Kidzaplenty (Jun 17, 2006)




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## ShadowMoon (Oct 18, 2006)

It is possible for animals to tear....all mammals can experience similar problems during labor and birth. I have witnessed two giraffe births (and other species as well) and the mother had a minor tear after the second one. All of the animals I have seen show some level of discomfort and/or pain during labor...but they all handle pain and birth differently.


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## mytwogirls (Jan 3, 2008)

I have horses and yes, oh yes, they can tear. I have seen it many many times! OUCH!


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## laoxinat (Sep 17, 2007)

Human bred animals aren't an appropriate comparison to animals in the wild. I highly doubt that geneticall pure wolves ever have tears when whelping puppies that are also genetically pure. KWIM?


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## newmama8824 (Jul 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soso-lynn* 
I tend to assume that if we forced a dog to lie on her back with her legs up and an epidural, she might tear too.

Agreed.

Also, I have witnessed my cat have babies several times and once she had a minor tear but nothing major like humans have.

Interesting question, I would love to know more.


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## Liquesce (Nov 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laoxinat* 
Human bred animals aren't an appropriate comparison to animals in the wild. I highly doubt that geneticall pure wolves ever have tears when whelping puppies that are also genetically pure. KWIM?

I find that logic a little dubious.


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## JesseMomme (Apr 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Liquesce* 
I find that logic a little dubious.

Actually I find I'm following along that logic quite well. Dog breeds, for example, are now so.. intertwined and crossbred that I'm now always hearing about how the mother dog "needs" a c/s. I'm sure a dog breeder could elaborate on that much better than I can.

(That said my small cocker spaniel was once in heat and escaped and when I finally found her, was already mating with a huge golden retriever. She had 9 largish puppies, one a runt, and did really well, though one puppy did die, which wasn't the runt)


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## tireesix (Apr 27, 2006)

Yeah, some pups now have huge heads so theres no chance of them fitting through the mothers pelvis apparently.

Also, with animals that have multiple births, the babies are going to bee smaller when compared to animals that have singletons, so really, we would be better of comparing humans to cows, horses etc rather than dogs, cats etc. IYSWIM?


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## KyrieNioMama (Apr 14, 2008)

I watched when our cat had kittens and she was definitely at least uncomfortable from the labor -- she even made laboring noises. Not sure how about the tearing question, though!


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## Destinye (Aug 27, 2003)

Yes animals do tear, horses especially, and dogs and cats definitely experience labor pains, and puppies and kittens can get stuck, have bad presentations and many complications. Certain breeds are almost guaranteed C-sections too, like Bull Dogs. Horses tend to have a lot of reproductive problems compared to other speciess. Then you have problems with calves and horses from the length of their limbs, and so that can often create problems too. I do think in humans as the PP said the head size, for increased brain function (well supposedly..) is the main limiting factor compared to other species though. I have no experience with non-human primates though but I imagine they would tear too. I have seen and treated all kinds of obstetrical issues in various species though and they all seem to have their issues.


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## Liquesce (Nov 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JesseMomme* 
Actually I find I'm following along that logic quite well. Dog breeds, for example, are now so.. intertwined and crossbred that I'm now always hearing about how the mother dog "needs" a c/s. I'm sure a dog breeder could elaborate on that much better than I can.

The logic I find questionable isn't that human breeding can be the cause of problems for the bred animals, but that it is doubtful that "genetically pure" wild animals ever tear while giving birth. I'm not clear on why this would be deemed unlikely without observation of such, unless we're operating on an assumption that nature as it stands apart from human intervention is perfect to a degree that very often does not prove true.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laoxinat* 
Human bred animals aren't an appropriate comparison to animals in the wild. I highly doubt that geneticall pure wolves ever have tears when whelping puppies that are also genetically pure. KWIM?

Giraffes are human bred?


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## beesister (Mar 6, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swissmiss2584* 
I was thinking one day after my friend's dog had puppies, are humans the only mammals who can tear during birth?

Also, do other mammals experience birth pains? I don't think I've ever heard a dog or cat cry out while in labor.

In response to the birth pain question I once heard a plausible theory, that I think can be useful to know for laboring women. A lot of human pain can be from anticipation. Dogs and cats (etc) are just in the moment. They aren't scared about pain that is coming next, they are coping with what is present. The fear of "...and it's just going to keep going, or getting worse" can be a big factor in how humans feel pain.

Hope that wasn't to convoluted.


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## JesseMomme (Apr 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Liquesce* 
The logic I find questionable isn't that human breeding can be the cause of problems for the bred animals, but that it is doubtful that "genetically pure" wild animals ever tear while giving birth. I'm not clear on why this would be deemed unlikely without observation of such, unless we're operating on an assumption that nature as it stands apart from human intervention is perfect to a degree that very often does not prove true.

Ahhh, I got you


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## Greenmama2AJ (Jan 10, 2008)

Animals most definetely tear in the wild. They also have still births, malpresentations, severe blood loss leading to death etc.

I think the idea that "natural" births result in "perfect" births - no pain, no injury, no deaths is completely untrue. And there is heaps of evidence of this in nature. Geez, I've witnessed heaps of examples first hand and I'm not even a breeder or biologist. This is the same line of thinking that says only humans "orgasm". What nonsense.

And on the same note - I believe nature isn't "perfect" because it isn't meant to be - but that doesn't make it any less beautiful nor any less amazing. Perhaps we should strive for a natural birth because it is divine and miraculous by nature, and not because it is clean and easy.

Just my (perhaps a little blunt) opinion.


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## kriket (Nov 25, 2007)

I've seen and helped a LOT of animals into the world. I do believe that the "natural" birth can _sometimes_ by _some people_ be put on too high of a pedestal. I've seen the same horse give birth to about the same size foals and 3 times she tore, once the legs got caught on her pelvis, once she started active labour and I swear was in so much pain she was waking the dead. I really think that animals have the same hard time. Some animals are baby making machines and I've even had cats that just didn't understand what was happening. She walked around the barn meowing her head off (she was a little off) we found that she had delivered her kittens while walking up to the barn. Two were in the driveway, and one was half way out. We tried to save them but she wouldn't nurse and she took them out of her box every chance she got to leave them in the barn floor to die. It was very sad, and there were no other barn cats at the time that could mother them.
so, my point is. Nature is really no help here. As far as I can tell, bad things sometimes happen for no reason. Some kind of intervention is sometimes necessary. If we truly let nature take its course, some people will die. That is nature. I'm not trying to PO people. I really think that as natural as possible is better, but as with all things, some people can go overboard.
much love


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