# a B- is not ok! when it is caused by 4 F's and incomplete work!



## momof2boys1girl (Nov 7, 2006)

My ds is a smart child, he gets excellent grades and excels in school.
He has a B- in a class called smarts.basically they teach you how to organize and take tests and other stupid crap. He has a B- because he has 4 F's on assignments. All the F's are for stupid reasons. He did not complete one side of a sheet because he heard her say not to, but she changed her mind and he did not hear her say to complete it. Another thing he just did not turn in and has no idea what it even is. Another one is a homework assignment he rushed thru and did not give complete explanations. And the other one is because he has a assignment due on friday but they were in lab and so he did not turn it in till yesterday or today. So it was late. The teacher told them it is not her job to remind them to turn things in and even if they don't meet and she has given them a due date they need to turn it in to the folder outside the door. Now I am frustrated with him because he is a smart kid and capable of much better. He wants to go to a good college (he has said harvard in the past).He needs all A's to get on the honor roll and with a B- in such a screw off class he wont make the honor roll. I told him if he had a F because he was not grasping a subject and not understand the process of something I could understand that but, to have a F on something because he just did not give it effort is very upsetting. I told him I think he will have to stay inside the rest of the week. He has gotten in the habit of coming in and dropping his bag and going back out to play. I don't think we will be doing that anymore.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

You're talking about your 12 year old?

I planned to be the Prime Minster of Canada when I was 12.

I definitely don't believe that punishing a child for one B- is going to teach him anything good.


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## momof2boys1girl (Nov 7, 2006)

He is a staight A student tho and those 4 F's were a result of him just not listening to the teacher. He is almost 13. I am worried this B- will slide to a C tho and when he gets a C he starts losing sports and other privlages. I am trying to nip this in the bud before it gets worse.


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## BlueStateMama (Apr 12, 2004)

I don't that I'd impose a punishment. It sounds like he's bright and driven, and maybe a talk about if *he* wants to go to a top school that grades will impact his options and his chances. Maybe reiterate that your biggest concern is that he's trying as hard as he can (not the letter grade.) Brainstorm about how he can be sure he's making his deadlines, etc. How about making a homework calendar or planner for him? I was anal about that stuff in junior high and high school - I brought a planner to school, wrote down my assignments while *in* the class, when they were given. I liked crossing off stuff I'd completed each night.









In your shoes, I'd double back about how assignments add up to/are part of your final grade and work on a solution, together, about how he can be sure he's taking everything in.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

If you keep pushing him this hard, I think you can expect to see his grades drop even further.


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## Oceanone (Oct 24, 2002)

can you help him make a plan to get organized and stay organized with school assignments and still fit in some play time? I believe it could actually increase performance to keep a healthy play outlet. What is his opinion of what happened? is he upset?


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## amyjeans (Jul 27, 2004)

I think that instead of punishing him for this, you could ask questions about the things that he might find useful in getting him to pull his grades up.
From your description, it sounds like he communicates well with you. YOu know the ins and outs of the reasons for the B-.

Sadly, his teacher can only give orders and grade performance, but you have the privledge to work one on one with him to get to the heart of the matter. I won't speculate what it could be, but talking with him and helping him discover what needs to be done might be better in the long run than just taking away extras like play after school and sports. Every child needs this.
I believe in natural consequences and he needs to come to understand what they are, by your guidance.
The obvious is, if he gets low grades, this may effect his ability to go where he wants in the future.
Every moment can be a struggle or a lesson. And honestly, I think it would be more of a pain for you to restrict his after school activites than to work with him to solve this matter. PLus helping him would be so much more rewarding for both of you than punishment.
just my 2 cents.
all my best.
Amyjean


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## ecoteat (Mar 3, 2006)

I don't get it. He blew off 4 assignments, was graded accordingly on them, and you are making excuses for him AND punishing him? I taught middle school for 7 years before changing to elementary and actually doing the assignments, whether you were paying attention in class or not, IS part of the grade. (I've said this many times: "Of course you were supposed to do the back! Why would I xerox both sides for you if I didn't want you to do them?") If you are going to be that hard on him, you need to also be supportive of his work and his teacher. Does he have an assignment book you can check each day to help keep an eye on his organization? I guess that is the point of that class--to help teach them to be organized (which is a GREAT idea for a class, btw).

Oh, and as far as I know, colleges don't pay any attention to middle school grades.


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## mammastar2 (Dec 17, 2004)

When I was 12 I really thought that my 'permanent record' and my 'transcript' since time immemorial would affect whether I got to go to college. I really wish someone had told me that nobody actually looks at how you did in (art, study skills, science, much anything really) when you were 12 when they're deciding where you'll go to college. I wouldn't have been so stressed out all the time, and I would have been a bit kinder to myself!

If his other grades are fine, he's generally motivated, and you don't see a huge pattern, I'd just treat it as a learning experience, and brainstorm with him a bit about how not to repeat it.

Anyway, he's already experienced the consequences of not listening/not finishing assignments. It was a B-. Done!


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

If it's a screw off class, then who cares what his grade is.

Is he in 9th grade? If not, then I don't think most schools even average in those scores. Plus, many of the college admissions teams average academic courses alone and then a cumulative GPA.

I think you're putting way too much store in the grade and not the child.


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## maplesugar (May 24, 2005)

When I read your post, I had a hard time even empathizing at all. First of all, a b minus is not a bad grade. You said this was a goof off class anyways, so could it be that he is simply bored to tears, therefor not paing attention as much as if he was in a class that was actually interesting.
We are unschoolers, though.
But I always did worse in subjects that did not interest me at all.
Also I think 12 is way to young to be pressuring a child to get into an ivy league school! Poor kid, I wouldn't be surprised if his grades got worse as the years went on simply because of the pressure you are putting on him!
Most colleges don't even look at grades before high school anyways. At twelve, it would seem like playing after school is so much more important that getting all a's in silly classes such as this.
For the record, I got (gasp) c's and b's all through out high school, and still got into a pretty good private college because I had interests and abilities beyond my grades.
I would allow your son to enjoy his childhood and let him worry about the Ivy leagues as HE sees fit.


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## Canadianmommax3 (Mar 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiverSky* 
You're talking about your 12 year old?

I planned to be the Prime Minster of Canada when I was 12.

I definitely don't believe that punishing a child for one B- is going to teach him anything good.

i bet you would have made a great prime minister!!


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## momof2boys1girl (Nov 7, 2006)

when school started this year we told ds he could do as many extra curicular activties as he wanted as long as he got nothing below a C. He plays soccer on saturdays and has practice twice a week, he choose to also play football for the school which was after school 2-3 nights a week. That just finished and now he is home @ 3 everyday.
I did ask him why he got the F's on the 4 assignments and it was because he did not hear the teacher give the directions, was rushing to finish the paper to go out and play w his friends, or because he did not turn the paper in when he was told to.
I would be ok with the B- if it was because he was having problems in the class and I am not pressuring him to get all A's he seems to want that all on his own. My reason for being upset is because 4 F's in the same class in less then 2 months I think is nuts!! It was because he was not listening to the teacher and he needs to learn to be responsible. That is my main point in thinking he needs to stay in the rest of the week. Maybe if he cant run outside right away he will slow down and do things the right way?

editing to add.
he is the one who wants to go to harvard I could care less. He is the one who has stated where he wants to go. Also he wants to be in the junior national honor society and your grades in 7th grade decide if you are part of it in 8th grade.
He was also picked to be in the Duke TIP program last month.
And yes to me the class seems like a goof off class but he still needs to follow directions and complete the assignments. The school gives each student a planner which I do check over each evening.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ecoteat* 
Oh, and as far as I know, colleges don't pay any attention to middle school grades.

Nope. They don't.

I think the issue is the attention/organization/proactivity and not the grade. I'm not even coming from a crunchy angle here - I think making a big deal out of the grade is just going to backfire (either he'll make worse grades or he'll become superparanoid about pleasing you... I was the latter type of child and looking back I wish I had known that making a B wouldn't have killed me... or even made a whit of a difference actually







).

It's also my humble opinion that his attention/organization/proactivity issues are age-appropriate. So, while there's definitely room for improvement, it's nothing overly concerning. I too have some similar issues (procrastination is one) and I wish someone had given me the tools to deal with it rather than just harping on it. Today I still procrastinate and just feel superguilty/stressed about it. Not helpful.

Does he have a day planner? Does he have folders where he keeps his assignments and class handouts? Does he now understand that at this point in school, he will have to proactively turn in assignments and not wait for the teacher to collect them?


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

How does HE feel about the grade? Besides your input on it?

If he feels like he messed up a few times and doesn't want to risk his GPA again, problem solved.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaWindmill* 
If you keep pushing him this hard, I think you can expect to see his grades drop even further.

Yep. Start saving now for the 3 months of intensive day therapy for severe depression when he's about 20. And I wouldn't expect a college diploma until he's at least 30, if ever.

Or, you could lay the heck off already.


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## library lady (Sep 3, 2007)

I still harbor resentment towards my mother for making a fuss over a B that I got in middle school. Let it go. If that is what he wants, then he will figure it out for himself. Maybe you can suggest that he change to a class that has a teacher worth listening to.


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## AGierald (Sep 5, 2007)

the more my parents tried to force me to do better in school, the more i said "screw it" and wouldnt do ANYTHING.

and also, after graduating with my bachelors, i realized that grades dont equal the quality of a persons life long term. Job applications dont ask me what my GPA was, and in actuality, I cant seem to find a job ANYWAYS, lol.


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## zaadad (Feb 29, 2004)

I'm sorry if this was already posted, but is he in HS or is this middle school?

If this is a middle school class, colleges could care less. His cumulative GPA is composed solely of HS credit classes.

I would recommend dealing with it when the grade becomes a C. It is a B-. Didn't you say his grades had to nothing BELOW a C? That includes a grade of a C.

Curtis


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## Mavournin (Jul 9, 2002)

Back off. All kids drift off in class and don't pay attention 100% of the time. Frankly, if I were you, I'd be thanking my lucky stars that a B- was my biggest worry.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

You seem to be forgetting that your child is 12. Old enough to take responsibility for his own homework and schoolwork, but still young enough that his grades won't truly "count" for college admissions.

Back off. Let him make his own mistakes and learn from them. If he doesn't make the honor roll or some other activity he wants to get into, then he'll deal with it. Not being able to participate in the activity is the consequence- there's no need to impose any outside punishments.

All I would do if this was my child is talk about his goals and what he needs to do to attain them. Maybe he's bitten off more than he can chew and will voluntarily give up one or more of his extracurricular activities.


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaWindmill* 
If you keep pushing him this hard, I think you can expect to see his grades drop even further.









:

I was a straight A student who never did "good enough". It got to the point where my A's weren't good enough b/c I was smart enough to get A+. I started protesting by seeing how bad I could let my grades get. Go easy on the kid, please.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

I don't care at all about grades, and my teens do not attend school...just a bit of a disclaimer.

However, if they did attend I'd be just fine with a B- or a C+. The questions I would be asking or looking into are things like:

_* How does the student feel about his grades, teacher, homework load, and classroom experience?

* What can be done, if anything needs to be done, to help improve things like organization or communication with the teacher?_

My line of thiking is do things _*with*_ him rather than _*to*_ him. Share your concerns in a way that shows you respect him and his feelings on this. It really creates a better result than punishments and condemnation IME. Especially for a pretty high grade. He's just a kid and he needs to know that his parent(s) is in his corner backing him up.

There are plenty of talented and succesful folks with a B or C average, and even some who have no grades at all.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momof2boys1girl* 
when school started this year we told ds he could do as many extra curicular activties as he wanted as long as he got nothing below a C. He plays soccer on saturdays and has practice twice a week, he choose to also play football for the school which was after school 2-3 nights a week. That just finished and now he is home @ 3 everyday.
I did ask him why he got the F's on the 4 assignments and it was because he did not hear the teacher give the directions, was rushing to finish the paper to go out and play w his friends, or because he did not turn the paper in when he was told to.
I would be ok with the B- if it was because he was having problems in the class and I am not pressuring him to get all A's he seems to want that all on his own. My reason for being upset is because 4 F's in the same class in less then 2 months I think is nuts!! It was because he was not listening to the teacher and he needs to learn to be responsible. That is my main point in thinking he needs to stay in the rest of the week. Maybe if he cant run outside right away he will slow down and do things the right way?

editing to add.
he is the one who wants to go to harvard I could care less. He is the one who has stated where he wants to go. Also he wants to be in the junior national honor society and your grades in 7th grade decide if you are part of it in 8th grade.
He was also picked to be in the Duke TIP program last month.
And yes to me the class seems like a goof off class but he still needs to follow directions and complete the assignments. The school gives each student a planner which I do check over each evening.

My kid did the same sort of thing at that age. Eh. We talked about how the lack of organization impacted his grade, and what the consequences were - no JNHS, no academic awards. However, it didn't affect his getting tracked up or ending up in all Honors/AP classes in HS. And JNHS is not going to impact his college admissions at all. None of middle school is. Really. Harvard doesn't care.

Honestly? This is a good learning experience for him. There are natural consequences to his behavior that will be adequate w/o your punishing him additionally.


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## readytobedone (Apr 6, 2007)

first of all, nearly every smart kid wants to go to harvard at that age. later, reality sets in and you maybe realize you want something different. or you still want to go ivy, and maybe you do. i wouldn't hold him to what he says he wants right now--support him, sure, but realize things can and will change. he's *12*. i'm almost *28* and i don't know what i want to do with my life most days









second, as a former TIPster myself, and a "gifted" person, i can tell you with nearly 100% certainty that "SMARTS" class is boring his pants off. it's not about academic ability or creativity--it's about dotting i's and crossing t's. i couldn't organize my way out of a paper bag at that age and am not really organized now. i was always in trouble when i was younger for having messy notebooks and not cleaning out my cubby. so what? i'm getting a PhD now.

finally, whatever his abilities, whatever his dreams, none of it means anything if you make him feel like crap about himself. my parents rode my you know what for doing badly in some classes in middle school and high school (worse than B-). it wasn't until i went off to school on my own (later HS) that i figured things out and started excelling--when my parents were far, far away. i'm sure it's frustrating for you to see him underperform, but back off and let him find his way. if he's as smart as you say he is, he will.


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## Viriditas (Aug 30, 2004)

I felt a LOT of pressure when I was in middle school. Not from my parents, but from teachers, peers, and just the general change in environment from elementary school to middle school.

When I was in 7th grade we had to write a really big term paper on Manifest Destiny. I sat looking at the paper and all of this pressure was building and I said to myself, "What if I just don't do it?" So I didn't. I got a D in US history that semester. I went on to do well in the rest of middle and high school and I went to college and got a degree. And I learned that the world doesn't end if I don't get an A.

I'm sorry for your son and for you. It sounds like you're both really worried and stressed about the whole situation. Reading your post cements my resolve to unschool my ds.


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## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

your son sounds like a bright young man. i think it's brilliant that he's chosen to goof off in a class called "SMARTS", of all things. he's probably being a bit of a smart aleck in not completing assignments and not being organized in a class that is supposed to teach completing assignments and being organized.

quite frankly, i don't blame him. he's probably not only bored by that class, but possibly resentful that he has to learn some system of organization that differs from his own functional one, as clearly he has excelled thus far.

as for using extracurriculars as consequences, i would strongly suggest that you not do that. first of all, colleges look at extracurriculars, too, so you're sending the wrong message to him that academics are the be all end all. they most certainly are NOT.

if my parents had restricted my participation in extracurriculars due to grades that didn't meet their expectations (which did happen here and there in my high school career, they threatened but never followed through which is a whole other parenting ball of wax), i wouldn't have gone to college most likely. you know why?

i was a competitive swimmer since age 12 and by sophomore year i was being recruited by colleges all over the country. my extracurricular activity was my ticket to anywhere i wanted to go. my family was not in any financial situation to assist me in attending college.

don't take that possibility away from him, it would be a huge disservice to him, and to you too...because instead of having to take out a second mortgage on your house, he might be the recipient of a nice scholarship thus more $ for your retirement.

you never know.

and kids need to run and play. every day. it's an important part of their physical health and development. please don't use that as a punishment, either.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Wow, you mamas are harsh towards another mama (although I think there is an element of truth in what you are saying concerning backing off)

Does his disorganisation affect other classes? If not, then he got a B- because he does not like this class/ or a bunch of lousy coincidences.

If he regualry gets lower marks than is his ability due to disorganisation, then he may need help being organised.

It is Ok, more than Ok actually, to _not_ get A's across the board.

All A's all the time may lead to:
-perfectionistic tendancies (and being hard on yourself for imperfection)
-not learning how to be challenged and improved grades. Children for whom grades always come easy have a really difficult time when they meet up with challenges.

You need to model that it is Ok to get B's (and even occasional C's, D's. and (gasp) F's
















I once heard that if a child receives a consequence at school there is rarely a need for a consequence at home. He has his consequence :a B-. He is either Ok with that, or he is not and will work to improve it. In either way, it is his decision.

Kathy


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## MillingNome (Nov 18, 2005)

Beating a dead horse: Back off. Ask questions if needed to help him sort though his needs.

DD- Just got her report card too. She wants to be a doctor and has since she was six. We'll see about that... or I should say- SHE'LL see about that. Her most recent report card had >gasp< a C+ in math. There is one B and the rest are A's. And you know what- I am most proud of the C+. SHe worked hardest in that class. She wanted a more challenging class (long story) and she got it.

She is just slightly older than your ds. Her future will depend on her using her mind well, the abililty to be inquisitive (and follow where that leads!) and cultivating a love of learning. Her future is not over with a C+ is math. It will be limited though if she can not see what is important versus what is not.

Your ds treated a screw-off class in kind. If he is pulling all A's otherwise, why the heck does he need a class called "smarts"...?


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## hamletsjadedlover (Aug 5, 2007)

make a punishment condition that he write down all asignments and have the teacher chck off that he has the instructions written


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## IndyNanny (Sep 20, 2007)

My DD is also an excellent student. For me it's not so much about the grades as is is her work ethic. She will pretty effortlessly get all As on homework assignments, then slack off for a while and get 3 zeros in a row. To me this is unacceptable. It's like choosing to do poorly out of laziness, not due to a lack of understanding the material. I'm just wondering if the op is feeling more that then the *gasp* B-.


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## MillingNome (Nov 18, 2005)

But is it laziness or a kid who has a packed schedule merely catching his breath. From someone who understands- it sounds like he has alot going on. DD is pretty busy with karate and one school sport. I personally do not look at vegging as laziness. She is recharging her batteries and regaining a sense of balance.

Let's be mindful that all people are entitled to "down time" and laziness is not what it's called. It's called relaxing


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## anudi01 (Aug 11, 2004)

I know it is tempting to put emphasis on grades and such, but please dig deep and rethink this.

I was a straight A student, and put a lot of pressure on myself. It was just assumed (by my family/parents that I would get all As, after having done it semester after semester).

I really look back on my education as a sucky experience. I went to a good college, graduated Summa Cum Laude, and I am NO better for it. I wish my focus was on the information/data or just fun of it. I got a good job, and now I am a SAHM and am extremely happy about where I am, but I really wish I focused on the humility of the knowledge, rather than the arbitrary measure of my success imposed by someone other than myself.


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## momof2boys1girl (Nov 7, 2006)

WOW I thought this was a friendly community but I guess if someone has different thoughts they get attacked. I posted this same thing at 2 other boards I frequent and this is the only board I have been treated harshly at.
You seem to be taking 1 or 2 things I write and spinning it into what you want to see.

I dont care about the B- I care that it is caused by having 4 F's in the class.I care that the F's were preventable, he did not get a bad grade because he did not understand the material it was because he did not give it all his attention and effort. I have talked w him and dh has talked w him asking him if understands why we are making a big deal out of this. He said he understands it is because he did not complete his assignments like he was supposed to. He does not think mom and dad are pushing him to get 100%.We know what he is capable of and how hard he has to work to acheive it. After talking I went to look thru his planner and he had homework that he still had to do for math. This is after he has come home and done all his homework according to him. It is not the B- overall it is that he is not being responsible.


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## <~*MamaRose*~> (Mar 4, 2007)

But in fairness to the pp's you made this problem sound isolated to this one class which is why you're getting the







:responses!


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## avent (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momof2boys1girl* 
it was because he did not give it all his attention and effort.

I agree. Did you ask him why this was the case? If you all agree on the general reason that it was based on attention and effort (as opposed to not understanding the material), perhaps it would be instructive/useful to go to the next level of what happened, why he felt this way? What kind of support he needs?


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## momof2boys1girl (Nov 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *<~*MamaRose*~>* 
But in fairness to the pp's you made this problem sound isolated to this one class which is why you're getting the







:responses!

Ok i am confused now.
The problem is isolated to this one class. His overall grade is a B- but he has 4 F's on assignments in this class that brought his grade to the B- level.


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## daniedb (Aug 8, 2004)

FWIW, I was a very gifted, bored kid, and I made some 0s on papers/quizzes, etc., because I forgot/didn't listen/didn't pay attention/forgot it at home. The only way I was able to finally get it together and start being more responsible was when my mom started cracking down on me. There's no way I had a grasp, at that age, what a few forgotten papers could do to my grades, and the repercussions of that. I'm so glad she did. And I responded by pulling my grade UP, and not down out of some rebellion. So, hey, it worked for me, and I ended up graduating 7th out of 350+ students, and I'm not in any serious therapy nor do I harbor resentment toward my mom.


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## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momof2boys1girl* 
WOW I thought this was a friendly community but I guess if someone has different thoughts they get attacked. I posted this same thing at 2 other boards I frequent and this is the only board I have been treated harshly at.
You seem to be taking 1 or 2 things I write and spinning it into what you want to see.

I dont care about the B- I care that it is caused by having 4 F's in the class.I care that the F's were preventable, he did not get a bad grade because he did not understand the material it was because he did not give it all his attention and effort. I have talked w him and dh has talked w him asking him if understands why we are making a big deal out of this. He said he understands it is because he did not complete his assignments like he was supposed to. He does not think mom and dad are pushing him to get 100%.We know what he is capable of and how hard he has to work to acheive it. After talking I went to look thru his planner and he had homework that he still had to do for math. This is after he has come home and done all his homework according to him. It is not the B- overall it is that he is not being responsible.

he gets a b- in one class after getting mostly a's and he's being treated as not being responsible?

i'm sorry, but ouch.

and i'm sorry that you feel a bit harshed upon here. many of the people here have progressive/alternative ideas about education as well as discipline.


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## <~*MamaRose*~> (Mar 4, 2007)

Yes, his 4 F's resulted in a B- which frankly is a fantastic grade! Yes, I understand that the F's are a concern and that needs to be discussed but the bottom line is he still has a B- which again to many IS ok.
Also, like others mentioned he can learn a lesson about what happens when assignments aren't completed...let him figure it out becuase as pointed out already this grade will NOT decide the fate of his college.
I guess many thought you were making a mountain out of a mole hill and stressing your son out. He must find it hard to be expected to be *on* all the time during school.


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## Iris' Mom (Aug 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momof2boys1girl* 
he is the one who wants to go to harvard I could care less. He is the one who has stated where he wants to go. Also he wants to be in the junior national honor society and your grades in 7th grade decide if you are part of it in 8th grade.

If he's that self-motivated, the B- was probably "punishment" enough. I'm sure he knows that a B- is not what the Ivies are looking for. In a way, it's better he got this now when it doesn't count. It's an opportunity for you to troubleshoot with him about taking responsibility and stepping up when things aren't going well. Four F's in one class is pretty troublesome. Bad grades do happen, but if you're ambitious, one F is a sign that you need to do things differently.


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## BelovedK (Jun 7, 2005)

Let's not flame this mama for coming to the forum with an honest question. If a point is to be made, it is taken easier when delivered in a more gentle way. If there is no way to say it gently, then either don't say it or contact the person directly through pm.

Just a gentle reminder.

Thank you.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momof2boys1girl* 
WOW I thought this was a friendly community but I guess if someone has different thoughts they get attacked. I posted this same thing at 2 other boards I frequent and this is the only board I have been treated harshly at.
You seem to be taking 1 or 2 things I write and spinning it into what you want to see.

I dont care about the B- I care that it is caused by having 4 F's in the class.I care that the F's were preventable, he did not get a bad grade because he did not understand the material it was because he did not give it all his attention and effort. I have talked w him and dh has talked w him asking him if understands why we are making a big deal out of this. He said he understands it is because he did not complete his assignments like he was supposed to. He does not think mom and dad are pushing him to get 100%.We know what he is capable of and how hard he has to work to acheive it. After talking I went to look thru his planner and he had homework that he still had to do for math. This is after he has come home and done all his homework according to him. It is not the B- overall it is that he is not being responsible.

Sorry, if you didn't care about the B-, you might consider changing the title of your thread. Your title may be what is causing some of the confusion.

I would recommend just talking to him about the F grades, on an assignment by assignment basis. By bringing up overall grades, GPA and future college applications this early, I think you are putting a lot more pressure on him than he needs.

I also hope that I am lucky enough to have a kid in 7th grade who gets home from school and the first thing he wants to do is go outside to play, in the fresh air. So many kids are holding up in their room, watching TV, playing video games or on their computers, surfing the net, I was beginning to think that 7th graders didn't know HOW to play with other kids outdoors. Please don't keep him inside for a week because of these grades. Talk to him, ask him if he knows why he is having a hard time, and listen to his answer.


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## Mama Dragon (Dec 5, 2005)

If you don't care where he goes to college, then don't care about a b- now.







:


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## GalateaDunkel (Jul 22, 2005)

I don't understand why a consistent A student is being subjected to a study skills class.

You've established that the problem is attention and effort. But can you figure out WHY he isn't giving it the attention/effort? Also why should he, if it is a stupid class?

The repeated protests that you wouldn't be upset if he didn't understand the material ring false because that is something that is unlikely to ever be a problem for this gifted child. The effective message is, because you are bright you are never allowed to slip up. That is a toxic message. I'm sorry if you find responses harsh, but phrases like 'B minus isn't good enough!' are seriously triggering of traumatic memories for many of us who were gifted children. And BSD wasn't sh!tting about intensive therapy for severe depression. I've BTDT too.

The intensity you seem to have about this diminishes the credibility of your statements that you don't care about the grades, that they're really *his* goals. Please give him the space, esp. in junior high where there's no real long term consequences, to decide whether they really are his goals. If they're his goals, you shouldn't have to punish him for not achieving them. Actually - if a child did have a goal of straight As and got a B-, a parent who wasn't trying to impose that goal would probably encourage the child to worry about it LESS.

In any case, I really think a gentle talk along the lines of 'well, now you realize that if you want to get really high grades you have to pay attention even when it's boring, huh?' would suffice. I am really really glad that I don't have loved ones laying it on thick about 'effort and responsibility' every time I flub a minor task. Why should a child have to deal with that either?

I also think that the undone math HW may already be the start of the backlash reaction mentioned by several PPs.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

What you describe is VERY common among bright students.

I have only seen bad things come of parents stressing about it and focusing on it.

It comes down to the fact it will always be his choice. Mom can not *force* him to do anything.

-Angela


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## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momof2boys1girl* 
My ds is a smart child, he gets excellent grades and excels in school.
*He has a B- in a class called smarts.basically they teach you how to organize and take tests and other stupid crap.*

i think this sentence might sum up why some posters were a bit harsh. you're the parent, and this is the way that you describe the class.

you admit that the class teaches 'stupid crap', and then you brand your son as irresponsible for not completing this 'crap'.

take this teachable moment, mama! what an opportunity to teach your son that sometimes we have to do things that might seem unnecessary or even downright stupid. sometimes we just have to jump through hoops and sometimes we have to plow through stuff that isn't all that interesting or enlightening but that we have to keep the big picture (ie: academic success, if that is something that this child is striving for) in mind.

also, i was wondering the same question as galateadunkel...what is a bright, motivated student who clearly has good study and organizational skills doing in a class like that? is it a mandatory class?


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## sw1ssm1ss (Mar 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kidspiration* 
i think this sentence might sum up why some posters were a bit harsh. you're the parent, and this is the way that you describe the class.

you admit that the class teaches 'stupid crap', and then you brand your son as irresponsible for not completing this 'crap'.

take this teachable moment, mama! what an opportunity to teach your son that sometimes we have to do things that might seem unnecessary or even downright stupid. sometimes we just have to jump through hoops and sometimes we have to plow through stuff that isn't all that interesting or enlightening but that we have to keep the big picture (ie: academic success, if that is something that this child is striving for) in mind.










So well said! I had a similar attitude to "stupid" classes in high school, and often got worse grades in easy classes than I did in A.P. or honor classes. I didn't really learn how to jump through hoops until I was older and more mature.

I did have a good English teacher who told me, when I complained of being bored in another teacher's class, to go start reading Hemingway, F. Scott Fitzgerald, and whoever else. Start taking responsibility for my own intellectual stimulation, in other words. She didn't tell me this, but I discovered two years later when I was doing college aps, that I had a LOT to say when asked what books I had read "that WEREN'T assigned reading for a class."


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momof2boys1girl* 
I dont care about the B- I care that it is caused by having 4 F's in the class.I care that the F's were preventable, he did not get a bad grade because he did not understand the material it was because he did not give it all his attention and effort. .....After talking I went to look thru his planner and he had homework that he still had to do for math. This is after he has come home and done all his homework according to him. It is not the B- overall it is that he is not being responsible.

What is the best way for him to learn the consequences of not completing assignments?

What is the best TIME for him to learn this lesson?

This is a perfect NATURAL consequence for not completing his homework. He didn't do the work/he didn't listen and he got a less than stellar grade. 12 is a perfect age to learn this. He's old enough to get the lesson, young enough that it doesn't matter. And he's probably smart enough that he knows it doesn't matter, right? (It is one of the problems with smart kids, they're frighteningly able to distinguish crap from things that matter.)

As a college professor, I can tell you that I have college juniors and seniors who haven't learned this lesson. It's a heck of a lot worse to have this lesson at 22 or 32 or 42 than it is at 12.

My major concern in reading through your posts is that you seem to be making this YOUR problem and not his. A conversation that includes "We expect you to do all the work and to work to the best of your abilities." is a a good conversation. But I would phrase this as questions, rather than statements or lectures:
"How hard were you working?"
"What did you learn from this?"
"What would help you keep track of your homework better?"
"Let's try different times of day to do your homework and see which one works best for you."

When my brother was 12 or 13, he had a paper route. He was not a great paper boy. He forgot houses. He never remembered to put the paper behind the door when people requested it (this in Minnesota where people didn't like to go out into the snow to get their paper). He was often late. One family in particular called repeatedly to complain. They even yelled at my mom because my brother was not doing his job. My mother (my brother was her 4th child, and she was the oldest of 11) was wise enough to simply say: "This is his job. If you have complaints, call back when he's home from school and talk to him. He's responsible for this, and he needs to hear from you. But it's not my job to fix this. That's his."

It's not your problem. It's his. And if he's not internally motivated, nothing is going to make him do the work. It's not your job to fix this. It's his.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

You're getting some really good advice in here. I was a kid who was pushed, pushed, pushed until I cracked and dropped out of college after my sophomore year and moved to Hawaii. It used to kill me that my parents would rail on me about a B-, but never said too much about all of the A's I got. They were just expected.

Seriously, you can push a kid too hard at any age. If he got four F's and still got a B- in the class, he's doing okay.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

What helped me when I was a teen and what I do with my kid who's in school is this:
Show an interest in his work. If it seems to be an unispiring course to you or to him, find a way to enrich it and enliven his enthusiasm. Study skills are great! I take little refreshers every year and I'm working on a college degree. It really helps to learn organisational skills and healthy study habits. At the very least, if the specifics taught in that course aren't useful, it brings attention to the fact that there is a method and various formulae that can be applied to the process of studying and working on *any* project.
I think a positive approach will be the best thing to inspire a kid whose interest in academia is waining.


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## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

Kids really remember how you judge them - and we do judge them, even if it is not our intentions. I am an artist and I got a C once in art class in 3rd grade. My parents were floored. I was smart, it was a lame class, I didn't give a hoot.

In High School I got 4 A's and 2 B's my first semester and 6 A's my second semester. My parents were proud. But what did I remember for the longest time? That my A's didn't count as much as my brother's, because I was in public school and he was in private. So even if I got an A+, it still wasn't perfect?









Having expectations is one thing. Expecting them to be well-rounded and excel in all subjects, all the time, is not realistic. I mean, are you truely great at everything? If someone at your job demanded you take 6 classes, and told you what they were - say Socail Skills Team Building, Advanced Economic Theory, Computer Management for Offices, Volleyball, Art History and one elective - would you get A's in all, or some A's and maybe a B, B- or even a C? Everyone, children and adults, bright and average, have various skills, interests and abilities, and are not nearly perfect in everything.


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## laoxinat (Sep 17, 2007)

I am one who believes that our children's grades are abolutely none of our business. Imagine how schools would be forced to change if parents never got report cards!!! The schools would only be accountable to the kids, WOW what a concept!
ITA w/ PP about relaxing. His grades are not about you, but it sounds like he is being empowered to make them just that







:. I teach MS kids (not in the classroom, as a guest instructor for PE), and I can tell you I wish that people would just lay off their kids and let them enjoy learning. Why do they HAVE to be good at everything? Are you? I'm not, thank Earth! < WARNING RANT< MS success has NOTHING to do with having good values, good sense, loyalty, devotion, passion or any of the other characteristics that contribute to happiness. Or academics, let's not forget that...approximately 2 hrs of ACTUAL instruction takes place on an average day in a MS. Out of 7. About FIVE hours of BS every day. It has everything to do with compliance with idiotic, unnatural arbitrary rules, peer pressure, wasted time, GGRRRRRR, it is so frustrating! Okay, so that's another thread. I believe the reasons kids often "lose it" in MS is that this kind of pressure is totally inappropriate for kids that age. There are other skills they need and more importantly, WANT to learn about, but because they spend ssooo much time in school and doing inane hw assignments, they are left with precious little time or energy to learn about life at a time they are very receptive. So quit worrying about his grades and get concerned with his heart. Make sure that academic learning doesn't get channeled into some stupid profit driven enterprise without a conscience. Be there for him in a way that nurtures his soul. NOW before the school system sucks it all out of him. Remember what it was like. If you had a positive school experience, great! But if your kid's isn't like that, maybe he's just frustrated and testing out what it feels like to just not care about a grade. GOOD for him!!! Real accomplishment dosn't need a gold star. If he learns that, what a terrific lesson.
laoxinat
mama to







unschoolin DD 16







; rockin piercer DS 20














partner to DH


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

OP, it sounds to me like the teacher in that particular class has a habit of giving ambiguous instructions, or of changing them after the fact. I agree he's probably bored with the whole thing since _he doesn't need to be in that class if he is an A student._ I would be interested to hear what other students are experiencing in her classroom.

I mean this in the nicest possible way, _really_...don't worry so much.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Meh, I think a little bit of mama pressure about grades is an okay thing. I think the OP may be overreacting a bit, but not nearly so much as many of the posters on this thread!

Mama bugging you to pull up your grades does not mean you're gonna drop out of school and need intensive therapy.







Our children are not faberge eggs, and his low grade does not mean the teacher screwed up or he is too smart for the class, either. Can we hear ourselves? Too much coddling, man.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momof2boys1girl* 
I told him I think he will have to stay inside the rest of the week. He has gotten in the habit of coming in and dropping his bag and going back out to play. I don't think we will be doing that anymore.

I didn't read any of the responses because this post really hit a nerve for me. I was grounded for an entire marking period when I was in 9th grade because I got a B in English. Twenty years later I still remember that, and I think that my mom was WAY too hard on me.

Please allow your son some room to make a few mistakes. Pressuring kids to get all A's is the wrong, wrong, wrong tack to take. A big part of why I am homeschooling my kids is to avoid grade pressure.

dm


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Yep. My mother did the same thing to me, and all it made me to do was fail classes on purpose.

ETA: I went on to go to the best university in Canada according to Macleans.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

FWIW, I got into Princeton, Harvard, and Columbia Universities when I was in my senior year of highschool, and I had many _many_ a B and even *gasp* a C+ in Math in year ten.

Ivy Leagues don't actually care as much about pristine academic grades as they do having students who can balance a great curricular life with a full and rich EXTRA-curricular life. One without the other is pointless.

I didn't go to any of the IVY league schools in the end. Lo and behold my priorities changed by the end of my senior year and I just wanted to be financially independant (which meant no 25K/year schools for me) so that I could _get the hell away from my mother_...who was very pushy about my grades, BTW.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momof2boys1girl* 
he did not get a bad grade because he did not understand the material it was because he did not give it all his attention and effort.

Yes, and the key word here is _he_. It's _his_ schoolwork. As long as he's doing a good job overall, don't nitpick over a few small shortcomings.

Quote:

It is not the B- overall it is that he is not being responsible.
If he's getting mostly good grades, he _is_ being responsible. If he's not responsible 100% of the time, that's ok. He's young. I'm 33 and I am not responsible all of the time. Sometimes I let things slide, and life doesn't end. I don't mean to sound harsh, but I was the kid of parents who were really really hard on me for the slightest academic slip-up, and it's NOT the way to go. I didn't learn to be responsible (which, for the most part, I already was), I learned that my parents cared way too much about my grades and that, if I didn't perform perfectly, I was going to be made to feel bad about it.

I think that you have done all you need to do in talking to your son. It's now up to him to make the adjustments necessary. Please don't take away his outside time. To me, that's counterproductive.

dm


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## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama* 
I didn't read any of the responses because this post really hit a nerve for me. I was grounded for an entire marking period when I was in 9th grade because I got a B in English. Twenty years later I still remember that, and I think that my mom was WAY too hard on me.

OMG That was truly awful.







There is nothing wrong with a B. Especially in 9th grade.


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## PajamaMama (Dec 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Meh, I think a little bit of mama pressure about grades is an okay thing. I think the OP may be overreacting a bit, but not nearly so much as many of the posters on this thread!

Mama bugging you to pull up your grades does not mean you're gonna drop out of school and need intensive therapy.







Our children are not faberge eggs, and his low grade does not mean the teacher screwed up or he is too smart for the class, either. Can we hear ourselves? Too much coddling, man.









:


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## anubis (Oct 6, 2006)

I'm going to offer a different view, putting on my flame retardant suit as I'm not talking from the viewpoint of a parent (no kids yet), but from that of a fairly recent teenager.

My mother had the philosophy that no matter what grade I got, it was good enough. I figured if she was just as happy with a 7 as with a 10 (Finnish system, goes from 4 to 10), then why bother. I mean, I was capable of getting those high marks, yet having no one crack down on me when I was simply too lazy to do things meant this went on for a bit too long for my own good. I ended up skipping most of my classes around the ages of 14-16. Which obviously doesn't help one's grades at all.

I was aware that my knowledge would do no one any good if I didn't translate it into schoolwork. But I was a teenager and friends and hobbies did take priority. I realise that my mother had my best interest in mind, as she was pushed hard when growing up (and ended up dropping out of university partly because of that), but I do wish she hadn't gone to the other extreme. I ended up not going to uni at all (even though I do plan to once we're in a better position to consider it), and that basically means that I'm stuck in dead end jobs for now.

There is a balance to be found, as is the case with most things in life. I think in your case, if this is limited to this one class only, a talk about how some things just have to be done no matter how boring it is (and boy, do I know that feeling) might do it. Obviously, you know your child best.

Some kids are so motivated that they only need the school grade as a consequence. Some kids don't give a toss about what the school says (







) but do care about their parents' opinions. Doesn't mean the kid is been coerced into anything or pushed too hard, it might just mean that s/he has this teenage-y view that they'll be able to do anything... later. And then suddenly they find themselves behind others and have to work their bums off to catch up (







again). Again, if it's just limited to one class it's probably not the same thing, but then again it started with one class with me as well (Finnish, that was. Honestly, though, if you expect me to still do basic punctuation and capital letters seven years after I was first introduced to them, you're out of your mind).

An open line of communication is important, obviously. Punishments might not be the best way to maintain that. Communicating your expectations to your kid can be done in a host of other ways that don't make it seem unfair (whether it is that or not is pretty much irrelevant; to most kids, punishments just do feel unfair).


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## expecting-joy (Sep 15, 2007)

I'm going to come at this from a different perspective.

Perhaps there are other lessons to teach that would be more valuable. When I was in intermediate school (middle school/junior high), I remember being upset that (1.) I got B grades in PE and (2.) tha the PE teachers didn't choose me for the intramural volleyball team. It wasn't until I was an adult teaching that I realized that the way PE was set up at that school that they probably didn't even know who I was. There were 100 kids in a PE class. Anyway, I never shared my feelings with my parents because they weren't really available to me and I didn't really tell them anything. I also was an otherwise straight A/A+ student. (For the record, I still hold several volleyball records at the college I attended.) Anyway, here's the lesson I wish an adult had helped me learn, and that I often help students learn:

People make mistakes. Grades are not the end-all. Go talk with your teacher. Come prepared with a proposal for improvement. Be respectful and acknowledge your part in things. One recent example I have is from high school, where grades do count toward something bigger. I started an Advanced Placement track for Spanish and drew in some academically lost native Spanish-speaking students. These students unfortunately had been lumped together with all non-native English-speakers since their arrival in the U.S./mainland U.S. For years they had the worst teachers and were put in low-level courses where they sat bored. I pulled these students who had never "taken Spanish" before because I, in consult with a couple other teachers and support from my principal, believed they deserved a chance to do more and enjoy learning in school. (I apologize that this story is getting long, but every example I could think of is long.) Anyway, AP Spanish Language and AP Spanish Literature are rigorous courses even for native speakers, and none of these students had ever had a rigorous course before. For lack of a better way to put it, most of them had been slackers and goof-offs for years with teachers for whom they neither had respect nor for whom respect was demanded. So, one of these very bright students was devastaed when he failed my course for the first quarter. I was surprised, but pleased not only that he cared, but that he came to talk to me. He wanted to drop the course or switch to pass/fail (the usual grade remedies at our urban school). I spoke with him at length and we came up with a contract. If he earned an A in the second marking period, I would average the grades for the first and second marking period and change the first marking period grade to that score. If he continued to earn A's or B's in subsequent marking periods and on the midterm and final exam I would use that new grade to compute the yearly grade. This worked for him and for me. I also believe my job is to be fair and to teach, not to sit in judgement. I have made several such contracts with students over the years, especially in the urban schools.

Anyway, I believe teaching your son how to deal with adults and authority figures and unpleasant work and making amends for poor performance or a lack of taking responsibility, etc., is the real lesson. I also believe that acknowledging that this work (the blow-off class) may seem/be less valuable to him is important. I like that you have spoken about it being he that wishes something (Harvard) that requires good grades. I would have him include that in his talk with his teacher. He really should make an appointment to talk with the teacher, explain his mistakes, TAKE OWNERSHIP for them, and maybe even ask that s/he write assignment changes on the board or something - whatever it is that he thinks is reasonable. If students are respectful and make an effort to rectify situations, most teachers are willing and able to help. Even if it doesn't change his grade, perhaps he can learn something valuable.

Good luck!

_____

Me







: Erin (3½)







Sara







DH


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## momof2boys1girl (Nov 7, 2006)

Good morning,
I think my ds and I have a great line of communication he and I talk about everything the girls he likes to who is his favorite teacher. I have always been open and honest with him in hopes that he will be able to tell me anything.
We talked again this morning and he understands I am not upset about the B- I am upset that he got 4 F's in the class and that the 4 F's were preventable. He is going to speak to his teacher today as well.

on a side note, I never told him that I think the class is stupid.(i have kept that to myself so as not to push my opinion on to him.) I told him I think it is a great class to teach children to be oranized and how to things. The class is supposed to teach them note taking skills, out lines skills, how to use a planner and calender, how to oranize your binder, ect.
I told him that there are several ways to complete these tasks and he needs to find the way that works best for him. But, if the teacher wants something done a certain way he needs to do it the way the teacher specified.
If your boss wants it done one way but you think your way is better and you do it your way the boss probably wont be very happy. If you do it the way that is asked but know there are other ways to get the same result then that is great!
Have a awesome day everyone!


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## subrosa (Aug 1, 2006)

Oh, man, your post brings back nightmarish memories of school: I was an academically excellent student, but really struggled in middle and high schools when teachers would collect our notebooks and grade them for organization, etc. This was a big part of our grades in some classes, and oh, how I hated it. I had my own way of doing things, and it worked for me, and I hated to have external criteria imposed on me. I literally could not make my mind work the way these people wanted me to.

While I understand your point about work in the future (e.g. producing for your boss what your boss is asking for), I think there's a critical difference here: when you're working for someone, you are doing something for that person. When you are at school, you are first and foremost there for yourself, to increase your own store of knowledge. I see nothing wrong with your son having his own way of doing things, and sticking to that way if it works for him. To be honest, the class does sound really stupid. Have you and your son talked about his feelings toward the class? He may be dashing off assignments and not listening because he thinks it's stupid, too. I think it's OK if you back him up on that. If he is bored and impatient in that class, maybe you and the school can work out something different for him to do in lieu of the class.

And BTW, despite my lack of "conventional" organizational skills, I today hold a law degree with honors from a top-tier law school. So don't worry, your DS isn't on the road to academic ruin just yet


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## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

How will your grounding him teach him responsibility?


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## daniedb (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Meh, I think a little bit of mama pressure about grades is an okay thing. I think the OP may be overreacting a bit, but not nearly so much as many of the posters on this thread!

Mama bugging you to pull up your grades does not mean you're gonna drop out of school and need intensive therapy.







Our children are not faberge eggs, and his low grade does not mean the teacher screwed up or he is too smart for the class, either. Can we hear ourselves? Too much coddling, man.

word.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *simonee* 
How will your grounding him teach him responsibility?

I think mama and daddy having lines, and communicating those lines through consequences, provides a 'container' of sorts for children and teenagers; boundaries.

Of course, if you make that container waaay too tight you're going to see rebellion. But nor do I believe that the container shouldn't exist at all, for fear that any sort of parent imposed consequence or standard will ruin their delicate ego structure.

I think a lot of us are in reaction to our own parenting, when we parent our children. I don't think *everything* from generations past needs to be thrown out in favour of wishy-washy, no boundaries parenting.

Which I see happening far too much around here and in some segments of my IRL social circle!


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## daniedb (Aug 8, 2004)

I was also grounded for any non-A I received in middle school and HS, unless there was a real reason, other than being lazy and unfocused. For the whole six weeks. My mom was at her wits' end with me, and it worked. Again, not in therapy, I love my parents, and while she'd do things differently now, and I won't do that with my boys, I think I turned out quite terrificly.







:


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momof2boys1girl* 
WOW I thought this was a friendly community but I guess if someone has different thoughts they get attacked. I posted this same thing at 2 other boards I frequent and this is the only board I have been treated harshly at.
You seem to be taking 1 or 2 things I write and spinning it into what you want to see.

I dont care about the B- I care that it is caused by having 4 F's in the class.I care that the F's were preventable, he did not get a bad grade because he did not understand the material it was because he did not give it all his attention and effort.

I just got this far in the thread. I think this isn't about people's friendliness toward you, but an ideological issue. If you look at the board as a whole, and at the responses, you'll see that folks here are at best ambivalent and at worst quite negative about grades and the ways that schools assign work. It's the subject matter that is determining the responses.

I think your son has already been punished by the bad grade. Since the class is precisely about paying attention to detail and following directions, he has already experienced the appropriate consequences for not mastering the skills. (Or perhaps inappropriate consequences, since it sounds like the teacher was punishing the students by being tricky about the details of the assignments, but I can't tell that for certain from here.)

I had a lot of trouble with detail as a kid, and in fact I still do. Indeed I identify with your son! I'm still like that--a quick study, bright and motivated to do work, and not very interested in detail and jumping through silly hoops. It seems that people do need to learn to deal with detail and jumping through hoops, though. I think you are right to want him to master this.

You are in a good position to enlist your kid's help in reforming. Ask him what he needs from you to focus more on these seemingly meaningless details. Get him on board, and work with him. If he's motivated, there's no need to punish, and I think folks here are right that it could backfire.


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## dancindoula (Jun 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GalateaDunkel* 
You've established that the problem is attention and effort. But can you figure out WHY he isn't giving it the attention/effort? *Also why should he, if it is a stupid class?*

Several people have brought up this point, but really I disagree. First let me say that figuring out WHY he isn't giving his best is a great place to start. But next it might be wise to examine somewhat greater character issues than just the grades.

Frankly, it does him no favors to reinforce in your own attitudes that this is a stupid class because it just gives him more excuse not to bother. The class probably IS stupid. I had to take one like that in COLLEGE of all places and I hated it because I am already organized and their methods totally grated on my own. However, which is going to be the more beneficial lesson in the long run: it's ok to scive off on things you don't like doing as long as you label them "stupid", or let's look to find as much valuable information as possible out of this seemingly stupid situation. If you choose the first option (and you may already be seeing the results of that with the math homework you mentioned) it's not setting him up to succeed in high school, college, the work force or life in general because there will be LOTS of things he will NEED to do that will feel stupid, pointless and arbitrary. And what if he's wrong, what if the task in front of him isn't pointless at all, he just can't see it? We can slap the "stupid" label on anything that doesn't suit us (safe driving, healthy living, strong relationships, pick one). And it will have much greater repercussions (lost scholarships out of highschool, lost scholarships/internships/opportunities in college, lost jobs later on, lost relationships he didn't feel like bothering on....).

Model the behavior yourself that, yes, this class is not the most enjoyable one on the schedule but there ARE things he can learn from it and to look for the best in the situation. It sounds like a pretty low pressure class, so that's a good thing. It's an easy A and if he makes the effort to at least complete the assignments he might actually pick up some useful organizational habits in spite of himself. Very few things are truly totally absolutely useless with no value or benefit whatsover. But he can learn from watching you that having a "perfect" grade isn't the point of education anyway, learning everything you can out of everything you can is the whole point. Our education is and always will be what WE make of it - we will only ever get out of it what we put into it (goes for everything in life). And choosing a positive attitude about even the stupid stuff makes the stupid stuff easier to deal with.


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## wannabemoms (Sep 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *library lady* 
I still harbor resentment towards my mother for making a fuss over a B that I got in middle school. Let it go. If that is what he wants, then he will figure it out for himself. Maybe you can suggest that he change to a class that has a teacher worth listening to.









Same for me too. I still resent the fact that even though I got As in most classes, a B got me a lecture about how I wasn't trying hard enough.

Let it go. I did the schoolwork because I WANTED to, for myself and for my own future. No amount of badgering was going to make me work any harder. I turned out ok, too (I have a Master's degree in Biology...funny, that, considering I nearly flunked biology in high school and this was one of the big fights I used to have with my folks)


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## momof2boys1girl (Nov 7, 2006)

after corresponding with the teacher thru email this morning here is just one thing she had to say.I questioned why he got a 0 on a interview paper he had to do.I knew he interviewed his cousin.He said the teacher told him not to do the back side of the paper because it had questions about a video which they had not watched. Her answer was this.........

Quote:

He was supposed to cross off #2... instead, he crossed off the whole page. ******* often talks during instructions. This is probably what was happening. He had several days after that assignment was due to turn it in for half credit.


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## enkmom (Aug 30, 2004)

Here is my take on the situation. Your son knows what to do, he is just choosing not to do it. My daughter did not do ANY work she considered to be busywork. I could stand over her and watch her do it at home, but that was no guarantee that she would turn it in once she got to school. I could punish her, but she didn't care. It was a control game, and it did not end until I chose not to play anymore. If your son is otherwise challenged at school, I would think of this B- as a blip on the radar screen.


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## BelgianSheepDog (Mar 31, 2006)

Don't roll your eyes at what is true for many people. It's rude and disrespectful. Intense pressure to succeed HAS hurt a lot of kids. Disagree if you want, but lose the dismissive attitude.


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## Electra375 (Oct 2, 2002)

I don't think punishing a child for the grade itself is wise. I do think that addressing the WHY he failed to do the assignments is more important. Frankly, it sounds like a stupid class and if he is a smart child, he is probably bored off his butt.

Life is more than grades, it's about the character traits of missed assignments, the due diligence of a child, teaching these things means more than the grade and I've had this chat with my son about doing his best. And I don't care what the grade says, so long as we know he is doing his best.

The time for action is before the B-, after the first missed assignment. You are now in "catch up" mode. Kids need play time, they also need hmwk time. When my son was failing to do his assignments. I made him show me his assignment book and his assignments completed. I didn't have to check up on him for long, I spot check now.


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## bigeyes (Apr 5, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain optimism* 
I just got this far in the thread. I think this isn't about people's friendliness toward you, but an ideological issue. If you look at the board as a whole, and at the responses, you'll see that folks here are at best ambivalent and at worst quite negative about grades and the ways that schools assign work. It's the subject matter that is determining the responses.

I think your son has already been punished by the bad grade. Since the class is precisely about paying attention to detail and following directions, he has already experienced the appropriate consequences for not mastering the skills. (Or perhaps inappropriate consequences, since it sounds like the teacher was punishing the students by being tricky about the details of the assignments, but I can't tell that for certain from here.)

I had a lot of trouble with detail as a kid, and in fact I still do. Indeed I identify with your son! I'm still like that--a quick study, bright and motivated to do work, and not very interested in detail and jumping through silly hoops. It seems that people do need to learn to deal with detail and jumping through hoops, though. I think you are right to want him to master this.

You are in a good position to enlist your kid's help in reforming. Ask him what he needs from you to focus more on these seemingly meaningless details. Get him on board, and work with him. If he's motivated, there's no need to punish, and I think folks here are right that it could backfire.

Yes, that is exactly what I think, though you said it much better. He has already suffered natural consequences, but I have serious doubts about the teacher being a little bit _off.

_ How does it teach organizational skills to give conflicting instructions?







:


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ecoteat* 
(I've said this many times: "Of course you were supposed to do the back! Why would I xerox both sides for you if I didn't want you to do them?")

Everything I want to say about the OP has already been said, but I did want to address this quote.

If you're that sure of what you're doing, that's great. I had several teachers who were unclear about what we were expected to complete for homework and/or changed their minds and/or forgot what they'd said in class. I have no comment on the OP's son's teacher, but there are definitely teachers out there who hang kids out to dry on this kind of stuff. There are also the ones who let the kids negotiate their way out of deadlines and expectations which teaches nothing but "I didn't mean what I said", imo. DS1 had a teacher like that in grades 4 & 5, and we've only recently managed to get it through his head that "due on Monday" does _not_ mean "if you hand it in Wednesday with a good story, I'll give you full marks".


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

I've read through this whole thread, and was surptised that no one else has apparently had the experience that we have had (an experience shared by many of our sons' families as well).

Our twin boys are in 8th grade, very bright, excellent students. At least they WERE, up until last spring. Suddenly they both apparently completely lost the ability to keep ANYTHING in their heads! They had no difficulty with their schoolwork, but remembering to finish it and turn it in was a serious problem.

They both experienced a growth spurt at the same time. Can you say "hormone overload", boys and girls?

We've talked to several parents who have seen exactly the same thing in their sons - suddenly they seem to have lost their brains. While this is not an excuse for not completing work, it is also not the first step down a slippery slope toward Cs and Ds - it is a phase that needs to be worked through.

I completely understand the frustration with a smart kid who can't remember to hand in an assignment, but it isn't the end of the world.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nd_deadhead* 
Our twin boys are in 8th grade, very bright, excellent students. At least they WERE, up until last spring. Suddenly they both apparently completely lost the ability to keep ANYTHING in their heads! They had no difficulty with their schoolwork, but remembering to finish it and turn it in was a serious problem.

They both experienced a growth spurt at the same time. Can you say "hormone overload", boys and girls?

We've talked to several parents who have seen exactly the same thing in their sons - suddenly they seem to have lost their brains.

Good point. DS1 is an honour roll student, a gifted artist and generally a fairly high achiever...but over the last year (he's 14.5), his brain has turned into a sieve. He lost his agenda in the first week of school. He forgets to bring home textbooks for his homework assignments. He lost his iPod. He forgets things he was going to find out at school (dates for clubs to start, etc.). He forgets that he's supposed to come straight home (like when dh had surgery on his hand last week). He's just...spacey. He's still doing his homework, and I think he's holding up his grades - first reports aren't for another week. But, he's just out of it.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

You're still making this YOUR problem, not his. I also hear that you're talking TO him about this issue, but he doesn't seem to be involved in the solution to the problem.

That's my whole problem with punishing him for it -- punishing makes it your problem because you're enforcing it. He doesn't have to keep track because you will.

Now, if you sit down together and discuss how he can better get his homework completed, and you BOTH agree to try to do homework before he goes out to play, then it's not punishment. But if he's not on board, it's punishment. (And I'm not sure I'd recommend that. At 12, their bodies NEED to run/stretch, etc.)

I'm also not surprised that this happened when his activities are OVER. It's always harder to structure unstructured time than it is to complete homework when things tightly scheduled.

What can you do?
You can talk about your values as you've been doing.

You can help him problem-solve to come up with solutions for better problems -- but really the solutions need to be HIS, with coaching from you.

You can let him suffer the natural consequences of his actions. (So, it doesn't surprise me that he's talking during instructions. He's 12, he's bright and probably social. That's what they do. Does it make it acceptable? No, of course not. But there is some value in him learning at 12 that it's a stupid thing to do.)


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momof2boys1girl* 
I dont care about the B- I care that it is caused by having 4 F's in the class.I care that the F's were preventable, he did not get a bad grade because he did not understand the material it was because he did not give it all his attention and effort. I have talked w him and dh has talked w him asking him if understands why we are making a big deal out of this. He said he understands it is because he did not complete his assignments like he was supposed to. He does not think mom and dad are pushing him to get 100%.We know what he is capable of and how hard he has to work to acheive it. After talking I went to look thru his planner and he had homework that he still had to do for math. This is after he has come home and done all his homework according to him. It is not the B- overall it is that he is not being responsible.

I'll say it again - my kid did the same thing. The assignments were silly to him, so he didn't bother. End result - *D*. In a class that was actually a bit more important than "Smarts" - try English. That was a huge consequence for him, especially when I sat down with him and showed him how the few no-brainer and silly assignments he ignored negated all the other hard work he'd done in that class. It was a huge lightbulb moment for him. One that hasn't been repeated. And luckily, his teacher knew how bright he is and didn't knock him off of being tracked up the following year.


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## jeliphish (Jul 18, 2007)

I think if you continue to punish for a B- you are asking for a lot of troubles later. Think about all of the things that are going on in his body right now- all of the changes he is getting ready to go through, physically, mentally, not to mention the drama that is probably going on in his grade...I would be more worried if he were "staying on track". Puberty brings on SIGNIFICANT changes in a 12 year old's brain- forgetfulness, clumsyness, anger, sexual feelings, it all sets in...and it takes some time for them to get back to "normal". Don't let something that is 6 years away affect the good relationship you have created with your child. Kids who get into Harvard, Yale, etc. do so NOT because their parents constantly stay on their backs...and get angry over a B-... they get into these colleges because they have it in them to excell. A B- does not mean that he is not excelling- just focus on his well roundedness. My best friend graduated from Harvard medical school last year, she made A's B's and C's in middle school. High School was A's and B's but she also played volleyball, was a volunteer EMT, played basketball, volunteered at the soup kitchens.... A guy who graduated with us from high school also applied to Harvard, and he had the highest GPA in our class- but all he did was school...obsessed with maintaining the top GPA- Harvard did not accept him.


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## Moonprysm (Jun 2, 2006)

I haven't read all of the responses - mostly because I can't. The feelings they bring back still hurt too much.

When I would get a B, I would cry. As soon as they handed me that report card, I would bawl. And then be made fun of by the other kids at school for crying over a B. But they didn't know that my parents would make me feel like total s*** when I got home because of it. That I'd probably be grounded. That *I* was disappointed in making a B, and the last thing I needed was their crap on top of it.

I was a straight A student my whole life, until my junior year when I decided that my parents were not going to have that power over me anymore. I started getting C's. And D's. And *gasp* I even got 2 F's.

I still graduated 42 out of 425. But I stopped giving a crap about what my parents thought, and those C's, D's and F's were the best things that ever happened to me emotionally. PLEASE don't do this to your poor, bright boy.







:


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

The more hormones kick in the more his mind will slip. It is part of nature. It is your job to teach him how to work when his mind isn't at it's best. He is also 12.

I don't think you should punish him but look at his mistakes as a learning experience. Learning how to advoid making the same mistakes again.


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## IndyNanny (Sep 20, 2007)

I still think it's ok for a mom to say "What happened here/ Why are there 4 Fs?" To be honest, even if my DD comes back with an "I just didn't feel like doing it" answer, I'm going to tell her that she'd better start feeling like it. I mean, I don't see any excuse for a zero. Even a







attempt would yield enough points not to loose much ground, kwim?


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## Arania79 (May 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momof2boys1girl* 
WOW I thought this was a friendly community but I guess if someone has different thoughts they get attacked. I posted this same thing at 2 other boards I frequent and this is the only board I have been treated harshly at.
You seem to be taking 1 or 2 things I write and spinning it into what you want to see.

I dont care about the B- I care that it is caused by having 4 F's in the class.I care that the F's were preventable, he did not get a bad grade because he did not understand the material it was because he did not give it all his attention and effort. I have talked w him and dh has talked w him asking him if understands why we are making a big deal out of this. He said he understands it is because he did not complete his assignments like he was supposed to. He does not think mom and dad are pushing him to get 100%.We know what he is capable of and how hard he has to work to acheive it. After talking I went to look thru his planner and he had homework that he still had to do for math. This is after he has come home and done all his homework according to him. It is not the B- overall it is that he is not being responsible.

Then why phrase it as "A B- is not acceptable"? If the real issue is him not doing his school work, and not the grade itself, why not title it that way? Remember, in writing, you have to be more specific then in speaking, because of nuances not being there.

That being said, I have been having the same issue with my older son, though he's younger by a couple years. I am just trying to focus on the irritation coming from him not doing it then the grade changes that result.

For example/ "You did not do what you were supposed to do, so now you don't have time to do what you want to do. Maybe next time you will do your homework when you're supposed to so you have time for playing."

I also keep in contact with teachers a lot to keep track of when issues like this crop up early on, hopefully before they get to a point that they're having an effect on his grade.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Yk....one B- could be the beginning of a slide downhill or it could be an isolated incident.

I think worrying that it may be the beginning of a slide downhill is gaurenteed to up the chances that will happen. Law of Attraction and all that.

FWIW: I do not think relating "you need to do stuff at school you do not like because in the work world you will need to do stuff you do not like" is a fair analogy.

- in work, you are paid to be there
-in work, if you do not like the tasks, you can quit (unlike school, where many children are there involuntarily)

Also, in the work world, one ideally finds a job that matches ones temperment. I have little patience for doing tasks in a prescribed way simply because "the boss said so"- hence I do not seek out jobs like that. I seek out jobs where I am valued for my input and where I feel comfortable going to my boss and explaining why I think a task is unnnecessary.

This is my (long














way of saying I would not plant the idea in his head that he has to obey (be compliant) as a part of life, and that will be part of his work life later on . That does not have to be the case.

I hope I am not sounding harsh. That is not my intent. I am simply offerring food for thought.

Kathy


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## Marcee (Jan 23, 2007)

My son is nearly 12 and is very bright. He has goals of either attending the Air Force Academy or U of Washington. I will be the first to admit that I gently push. I give lots of reminders. I set clear expectations. I assist with time management and such. I Believe that it is still a collabarative effort with his given age. I only expect for him to give his full effort. I too would not be happy with 4 f's because of incomplete work. But I make my son carry an agenda to track his assignments so that he does not forget by the time he gets home.

He has a full schedule between School, Football, and basketball. I want to see him succeed in school and life so I am helping gain the tools now. But I dont expect perfection, and I expect plenty of mistakes. That is the only way they learn.


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## Marcee (Jan 23, 2007)

Know that my post is ment not to attack or judge. Just to let you know what works for us. And I think that it is very proactive to look at the problem/issue and help you son. You are trying to do what is best for your son to support him in any future goals that he may have.

Oh and I have the ability to monitor his assignments online and I check them often.


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## MamaWindmill (Feb 5, 2005)

This age seems just about the time they start getting flaky about certain things. I will reiterate that I think pressuring him as a bad idea; perhaps the best approach is to see if you can have a talk with him at a certain time every evening about what needs to be done for school the next day. Does the teacher post the day's assignments online? I might get concerned if there are further Fs. Good luck!


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## Marcee (Jan 23, 2007)

I also dont know where your son is socially but with my son I am reminded of a song lyric that says something to the effect of 'I have my brains in a jar, in the closet in the dark, ever since I learned about girls"...lol


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## ananas (Jun 6, 2006)

A B-? I wish I had grades like that when I was in school.







:


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## Jennyfur (Jan 30, 2007)

In regard to the OP, a B- is fine in context, but 4 F's and incomplete work are not okay.

Middle school grades do count for my 8th graders, because they are applying to high schools. The high schools look at letter grades for 6th-8th grade.

FWIW, I don't accept any excuse that includes "hormones" in it. Preteens and teens can manage to handle schoolwork and do well without getting not 1 but 4 F's.


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