# 5 yo to bed w/no dinner?



## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

My kids are picky eaters. dd is 5 and has certain foods she will eat. Tonight, I made dinner (a goulash/stroganaff thing) and kept plain noodles off to the side for her b/c she doens't like the sauce. Fine. no big deal. Until she sees the noodles and decides she doesn't want THOSE noodles, she wants ramen noodles instead. No.

I tell her she needs to eat what is served or she won't eat. When I'm making something new and know she won't eat it, I do offer simple alternatives,but when I make something I know she's eaten before, I wont' do that. We're pretty liberal witheating, we don't have set meal times and we sort of come and go from the kitchen and that might be part of the problem.

I served the food about 1 1/2 hr before bedtime and I tell her if she doen't eat before bed, she won't eat. She is asking for other thigns, asks dh (he wasn't around for the conversation) for something else, etc.

She finally ate the stupid noodles and then was able to get something else, but is bed with no dinner ok for a 5 year old in these circumstances?


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## lauraess (Mar 8, 2002)

I know it can be really hard at dinner-time with a picky girl, or boy or what-ever you have ( although, Im kinda seeing a real tenacity for the manipulative stuff in my 4.5 yr.old dd







).. And Yes, I've threatened, somewhat -one of those







ell, you can just be hungry comments-








However, I really think that actually doing it, sending them to bed hungry is not right. I usually tell them that's all there is, no dessert if they cant eat a few bites, and then EVENTUALLY--- WE let it go.
Yeah, it's really frustrating some nights








~L


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Why can't she just have something else?

I don't think you should be hopping up and cooking something else, but maybe she could have something that's easily accessible to her?


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

We have a snack shelf in the kitchen with lots of healthy things to eat and a fridge full of cheese, yoghurt, tortillas and a big bowl of fruit.

There's no requirement that anyone eat dinner, although we do really enjoy sitting with each other. If anyone gets hungry, there's lots to eat with no bother.

Also, we usually all weigh in on dinner so no big surprises for anyone.

I wouldn't want to make everyone a different dinner, but I also wouldn't want to be the food police.

I'm from a huge family...the rule when I was growing up was "Eat it or leave it, but don't talk about it." No one wants to spend dinner with a running commentary on everyone's deepest feelings about green beans.


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## be11ydancer (Dec 2, 2003)

I think restricting food in anyway is just setting her up for future food issues. My four year old goes through slumps too and I think it's more about her wanting to be in control than her not liking what I prepared. So if she doesn't like what is served, she can help herself to something else. I won't cook anything else but she usually ends up getting yogurt or a tortilla. Don't sweat it, mama. Food should always be a non-issue.


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

I wsn't trying to make it an issue, I wasn't yelling (big improvement for me) or getting upset. She just had a choice to eat what was being served or not. If she chose no, and it was bedtime and she hadn't eaten, well- that would be that. I wasn't trying to send her to bed w/o dinner, just a logical consequence, kwim? We don't have the healthiest diets anyway, and I often let her get somethign she can do on her own- but she wanted *me* to make her something. Once she finished the noodles, she was able to choose something else.

So, really, if they don't eat something you make, and you know they usually like it- they can just eat an apple or something else? They don't have to eat family meals at all if they choose?


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Sure. I know I'm not always in the mood for certain foods. I don't see why a child would be any different. If I made something and then decided I didn't have a taste for it, I wouldn't go to bed hungry. I'd pack it up for leftovers and eat something else. If I don't allow ds the same option, it's because I'm trying to control him. And food should never be a control issue, IMO.

Ds knows that he can either have some of what I'm eating or he can have whatever he can get for himself. If he gets me early enough, I'll help him make it. Otherwise, it's up to him to get something easily accessible.

Btw, I think it's great that you didn't yell. That can be hard.


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## be11ydancer (Dec 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shelbean91*
...So, really, if they don't eat something you make, and you know they usually like it- they can just eat an apple or something else? They don't have to eat family meals at all if they choose?

Exactly. At our house though, even if you don't like the food, you still have to stay at the table until everyone is finished eating. I also put all of the food on serving dishes in the center of the table so everyone can serve themselves what they want. This has helped our 4 y.o. decide that all of a sudden, maybe she does want to try that salad after having to stare at it for a while.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

My daughter is five and has tried this as well, including eating only two bites of something she usually likes, and then complaining later that she's hungry. For us, this is a natural consequence, and she will not starve to death by morning (she eats A LOT normally). She's not a baby, or a toddler, but five. She's not normally a picky eater at all, and will try anything. I made her her own meals until about age two, and then she was expected to eat what we ate. She loves spanakopita and curries, pretty good in my book.

I'm not going to have food battles with my daughter, and I see (non-AP!) families who really give in to the power games and what I see as true manipulation between parent and child. We do provide many choices at dinner - not just one dish, so she can choose what she likes, as long as she gets some sort of protein in. But when she throws a tantrum just to throw a tantrum...at a restaurant a few months ago she started crying and yelling because the pizza wasn't cheese-only (it never is when we order it - it has all sort of different toppings), and so we offered her a choice - eat pizza as-is or sit in the car with one of us. We took her to the car because she kept up with the tantrum - a spectacular one, I have to admit - and then she calmed down and we went back inside and she liked the pizza. We definitely never use dessert as a reward - dinner is dinner, it's nourishment and vitamins, and is independent of dessert (which is done as a treat-only on weekends anyhow).

One question - has your daughter observed other children performing this act and succeeding? We noticed a dramatic uptick in picky, food-related behavior when she saw a friend throwing fits at home and in public and getting food made-to-order as if by her personal sous chef, complete with bribes for desserts. That would be nice for all of us, I guess.

I do offer it as a choice - i.e. you can eat what I've made, you can make your own food, or you can not eat, but at 7:00 the kitchen is closed (say, it's 6:30). If you are hungry because you didn't eat dinner, then that will be sad, but that is what we do in our family. We eat dinner at dinnertime.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend*
I'm from a huge family...the rule when I was growing up was "Eat it or leave it, but don't talk about it." No one wants to spend dinner with a running commentary on everyone's deepest feelings about green beans.


Ooooh, that's the rule here. But, you can't just get something else for dinner here though. You eat what's on the table or nothing. BUT there is always dessert (you get that even if you have eaten NOTHING for dinner).

And there is always a snack before bed. So no one goes to bed hungry. Actually my kids have never been upset about the eat what's on the table or nothing rule. It never really occured to them their was another option until they were older and liked almost everything anyway.


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## Sarihah (May 22, 2005)

I agree with everything that Loraeileen said!


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

I wanted to add too - sometimes kids act like this when what they're really trying to express some way to make choices, to be independent. The way we deal with it is to offer the choices I said earlier, especially at dinner, which is a big-deal family meal with lots of options and consideration regarding what everyone likes; but at breakfast we've gradually let her make her own in any case, with whatever choices she wants. Maybe give her more control over one entire meal of the day - i.e. choice of cereals, pour her own milk, choose a fruit from the fruit bowl, make her own toast, spread the butter, etc etc; or packing a lunch/making her lunch; and she'll back off the dinner issue - it seemed to relieve some of the pressure in ours, along with being firm about dinnertime issues.

It's just not polite or cool for my daughter to expect ME to cater to her last-minute whims, because we don't tend to do that to each other in our family, especially at dinnertime. I don't even want to think about my husband whining at me about the chili "being the wrong color."


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
Why can't she just have something else?

I don't think you should be hopping up and cooking something else, but maybe she could have something that's easily accessible to her?









I would maybe agree on something simple she can have instead? (cereal, fruit, PB sandwich, yogurt?) I would not be comfortable sending a child to bed hungry .


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

In response to the question loraeileen- no, she hasn't seen other picky kids recently. Actually, when we spend meals w/friends, the positive peer pressure helps her to eat a greater variety. Maybe I should do that more often!!

For breakfast and lunch, she has complete control, as I don't cook for those- cold cereal or a sandwich, etc. We also have some snack foods like grapes or pretzels available throughout the day.

She has been having tantrums just for the sake of tantruming lately, maybe she is just adjusting to some new change and exercising her independence. However, she also needs limits- after she finally ate her food, she apologized for yelling.

Another example of independance was that I told her it was time to get ready for bed and did she want to sleep in her jammies or her clothes. She said her clothes, I said that was fine, but if she wanted her jammies, she needed to do it before we were laying down. Well, as we were laying down, she said, no, I want my jammies. I had told her the hour before that she needed to change if she wanted to, so she needed to keep her choice. She fussed about it for a while (asking please over and over) and finally stopped and again said sorry for not listening. I did end up letting her change b/c she had forgotten to go potty before laying down, but I think she's just testing her boundaries and I'm working to get the balance of limits and her choices. So, it's not just mealtimes,but lots of times- I suppose if I keep that in mind and pick the right battles, she'll learn what she needs to learn.

One issue I have is my parents were the 'clean plate club' parents. Needless to say, I'm pretty overweight and don't know how to have a single portion of anything. My dad was also really stubborn and strict at random times, so I see myself following that pattern. It's really nice to have this place to bounce ideas around.

Thanks.


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UnschoolnMa*








I would maybe agree on something simple she can have instead? (cereal, fruit, PB sandwich, yogurt?) I would not be comfortable sending a child to bed hungry .

If she were willing to do this herself, it might be ok, but she wanted me to get her something. I also make these choices available when I'm making something I know she won't eat- I don't want to have to make those choices available when I make something I know she usually eats. I guess I'm being a baby about it, but that's how I feel. I should just get over it, I know.

Also, she probably wouldn't really be *hungry* b/c we usually allow snacks throughout the day. And, she eats cereal right when she wakes up, so it wouldn't really be that long w/o food.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

You wanna trade friends?









It sounds like you know your child, and what she's needing right now. Good luck.

I was also part of the clean plate club. I remember not being allowed down from the table at age eight, until I ate all the saurkraut on my plate, bribe of dessert afterwards. GAH! I really would have rathered the choice not to eat.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shelbean91*
If she were willing to do this herself, it might be ok, but she wanted me to get her something. I also make these choices available when I'm making something I know she won't eat- I don't want to have to make those choices available when I make something I know she usually eats. I guess I'm being a baby about it, but that's how I feel. I should just get over it, I know.

Why don't you make the the rule at the "meal" that there are no other choices available and then allow a choice of snack before bed?

If she's hungry she can eat then, but it gives you the ability to not have to get up during the meal.


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## KermitMissesJim (Feb 12, 2004)

My ways closely resemble Loraeileen's, too.


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

For those of you who limit eating to dinner time, do you cut off snacks a certain amt of time before meals?


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shelbean91*
For those of you who limit eating to dinner time, do you cut off snacks a certain amt of time before meals?


Yes. we had set snack times as well as set meal times. Afternoon snack was about 2 hours before dinner.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I have an issue with making food an issue (does that make any sense?) I figure kids eat when they're hungry and don't eat when they're not unless we teach them differently (which some people spend a LOT of time doing) I think a simple other choice (pb&j, cheese and crackers whatever- not endless choices though) is a reasonable thing. I wouldn't make consequences of not eating either (no dinner then it's bedtime...)

just my $.02

-Angela


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

_For those of you who limit eating to dinner time, do you cut off snacks a certain amt of time before meals?_

Today:

breakfast 7ish - bowl of cereal, strawberries, bananas.
snack 10ish - three veggie sausages, orange juice
lunch noonish - chilimac (using the aforemetioned detested chili magically made delicious with the addition of annie's macaroni).
snack 2:30ish - pb & j sandwich, carrot sticks and hummus
dinner 6 PM - three BIG slices of pizza

Bedtime for her is around 8 or so. If she had a good dinner but is still hungry (usually growth-spurt related, not all the time - it's pretty evident when this is to us) then we'll have apples or fruit again. We also usually eat lunch at 5 PM sharp, because DH gets home then and is starving, and we are too, but today we went out so I gave her a bigger snack than usual. It's definitely not open snack time, we eat snack together and then go for a walk or do something together. I like her to be a little hungry for dinner.

She's a total string bean and eats a LOT. We're vegetarians, ergo my fixation with the protein intake.


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

Angela- I wasn't making bedtime a result of not eating- it was close to bedtime anyway and I was reminding her of that. We were going to bed earlier tonight b/c last night and the night before the kids were over tired at bedtime and it was hellacious getting them to sleep. I figure since the older 2 don't nap anymore, I need to get them to bed earlier- and I was reminding her of that.

I know kids should eat when they're hungry and not when they're not. I also don't want power struggles about food (i also remember having to sit at the table until I ate my meatloaf- which i HATED- and ended up sitting at the table until bed.)

It just seems that she asks for something- I get it for her and she asks for something else. I try to be respectful of what she needs and when I do, she asks for something else. That seems like she's tryign to get a sense of how much she can control, kwim?

I'll let her have so much, but when she changes her mind over and over, I'm not going to jump through hoops and I feel like that's what I'm doing. Another example- I'll be sitting nursing the baby- she wants something. I tell her she can get it herself or wait until I'm finished- she'll start tantruming that she wants it *now* and she wants me to get it. I can't allow that, of course. I just can't handle it and some days I'm <thisclose> to laying on the floor and tantruming right next to her. She needs to learn limits and what is reasonable and I'm trying to teach it to her.

I always figured once they learned to talk, parenting would be easier....boy was I wrong. :LOL


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

So you are seeing the eating as part of the larger problem of feeling intentionally manipulated or demanded-upon in an unfair way? I think (personally) that's fair. Respect goes both ways.

Can you talk with your daughter about this during a time that neither of you are upset in an "I feel..." way? I feel very frustrated when you change your mind about dinner at the last minute because I'd like to sit down and enjoy dinner with the family? I feel like you're playing a game with me, but I do not enjoy this game? I feel frustrated because when you ask me to do something nowand I _have_ to nurse the baby, I feel like you're not hearing me? How do you feel when I nurse the baby? Is there some way we can talk about this before we both get upset or angry with each other? Sometimes I can't do what you want when you want it, and that's unfortunate but the way it is sometimes...but we can talk about it before or afterwards...

My daughter also did this with food about a year or so ago - she'd say she wanted something specifically (PB and J) but when I gave it to her she'd say, "oh nevermind, I guess I really wanted a PB and Honey and I won't eat this." I did talk to her about "playing tricks" and that this was not fair if we were communicating openly with each other, that I trusted her to tell me what she wanted and felt frustrated with this ploy. I don't think she did it again, but we did talk when neither she nor I were upset.


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## CarrieMF (Mar 7, 2004)

I see nothing wrong with what you did, we have done that at times too. My kids have a say in what we have for supper, or they know in advance and sometimes they change their mind when it's ready and decide they don't want it. I will not make other food for them and see nothing wrong with them being taught that you either eat what you are served(which they have usually had a hand in deciding what we're eating) or you don't eat. They know this, if a kid is hungry they will eat it. I don't make them finish what is on their plates(unless they want 2nds) and dessert is like Christmas around here.lol I do not make an entire meal of things I know they will not eat either. The only thing I try to sneak in is onions and garlic, I need to learn to chop them up when they're not in the house though.lol When my kids(it is usually only the 6yo) decides she does not want something for supper it is usually because she's tired already or she thinks I'm putting onions/garlic in it. IMO it is a sign of respect and proper manners to eat what is placed in front of you. If my kids are not taught to eat what is given to you and they were to go to a friends house and decide that they want the parents of their friend to make something different I'd be horrified. 99% of the time they will eat what we're having with no complaint. I do not believe that a kid going to bed without supper is going to cause food issues unless it happens on a daily basis.

We do schedule our meals. Bkfast is from 7:30-8:30, there is sometimes a morning snack. Dinner is at 12, an afternoon snack after the oldest gets home from school around 3:30. Supper is between 5 & 6 depending on how tired the girls are and what else is going on that day. Rarely do they get an after supper snack and bedtime is between 7 & 8, then usually play in bed for an hour before going to sleep.


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

I think she's needing more attention. We've talked about it, but not specifically relating to meal times. A few times when she starts tantruming, I start giving her hugs and kisses and asking her if she needs attention. One day, she actually told me that she needed attention and I sat with her for a while and we had a good day.

I do talk to her about how she should try new stuff and she says that she will when she's *older* b/c she's only 5 now and 5 year olds don't like that stuff. :LOL She's so serious when she says that.

And I say 'baby' but he's 13 mos, so not quite a 'baby' anymore. I think she's getting frustrated b/c she sees him more as a kid and less as a baby. We'll just keep plugging away at this and try to avoid triggers.

I posted this before bedtime so I could get ideas and I certainly did.

Thanks so much again!!!


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## Mommay (Jul 29, 2004)

I agree with Alegna. My ds is less than two, so maybe I'll face different issues when he's five. But I don't see the reason for having a closing time in the kitchen. If ds is hungry at 7:06, why can't he eat? I've given ds food right up until bed time. Ds is not a picky eater, and loves his veggies, etc. He usually eats what I put out. So maybe I'd feel differently if he was refusing everything. But I just feel that his hunger should dictate when he eats.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Ah, I see on the bedtime- sorry.









Maybe pick something that she likes fairly well (yogurt, cheese, pb&j or whatever) and say- you may have ___ (what we're eating) or ____ (liked alternative) And keep repeating it- the choices for tonight are ___ or ___. I'm big into choices....









good luck! It does sound more like a stage across the board that food has just gotten pulled into.

-Angela


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## RubySweet (Jun 16, 2005)

My dd does that sometimes but it's usually when I've made something that she isn't so fond of (everybody contributes to the week's meal menu so sometimes it's somebody else's favorite). So I just tell her that's fine, she doesn't have to eat it, she can make herself XXX instead. I only prepare dinner once & that's it. There aren't any snacks before bed either because we usually eat around 7 & then we still have to bathe etc for bedtime at 8.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Just wanted to say that I have hard time with any rules for food.

I eat what I want when I want (given I have enough money)

I want snack - I eat snack, be it before dinner, after dinner or instead of dinner.

My husband and my kids definately have the same "priviledge"

I do cook a meal a day usually around the dinner time and it gets on the table together with other things while we as a family sit around and chat.

Nobody is obligated to eat it - I'd like them to, but that's about it. We have no locks on refrigerator, cupboards or fruit basket, so everybody is free to eat whatever and whenever they want too.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

It is wrong to make children eat by the clock and withhold healthy foods when they want them. Period. It reflects a control issue with the parent and is not to the benefit of the child. Provide her with healthy choices, talk with her, let her eat what and when she chooses.

Many parents decide when their infant will eat. Within ap there's an acknowledgement that baby's have wisdom over their own bodies, and should be fed when they are hungry. As adults few us think we need anyone to control when we can eat. Humans do not have a dietary crisis in between infancy and adulthood, in which they need to give up access to the kitchen.


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

I understand that it's wrong to make kids eat by the clock and it's a control issue. I'm trying to find the balance of when she's using food to exercise control and when she's not- if she's hungry, I want her to eat and I don't want her to eat when she's not, like if she's bored. I do boredom eating and it's made me way overweight.

In this instance, I served dinner at 5:30 and bedtime was at 7- she had an hour and a half to eat. She also has wanted something to eat right before bed, just to delay bedtime. What do you do for that?


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

My youngest is very picky, but I have never done that. I've been tempted, **for sure** but it's not worth it. I just do not expect that sort of rational thinking from a 5 yr old. She may have been extra- needy tonight, and the fact that she is the oldest makes it look like she can handle this sort of thing. But being the oldest doesn't mean you're not 5. I know that against smaller siblings 5 looks 'old', but they still need us when they are feeling overwhelmed. Food is a huge issue for some children. I might not make a different meal (I prob would not) but I wouldn't punish.

I make a little snack part of the pre-bedtime ritual. But imo, she knows she's being 'put to bed' and is trying to find ways of being with you. My youngest has a bedtime snack, a long story, and then she nurses. It takes 30 minutes, but i can't think of why i wouldn't invest 30 minutes in her bedtime ritual. I notice you have other children, and i do as well. So btdt, and have lots of ideas, but i need specifics.

When my dh was not available at bedtime, I put us all in bed together and read a bunch of books until everyone was relaxed and then i lowered the lights and nursed the youngest. I made sure I brushed and washed first, as no matter, i would fall asleep with them, at least for 30 min or so. Sometimes for the night. If i woke, i;d move who needed moving, or i would tell my dh to. lol

My kids all outgrew that great need, however. i only have the one of four in my bed now, and it's only a matter of time before that's oiver as well. I know it's hard to go with it, but that's all i could ever manage. I am nothing at night. I can read and nurse and that is it!









My only 'advice' is not to think a 5 yr old is mentally capable of certain cause and effect. 5 yr olds are not capable of much forward and/or rational thinking. They are in-the-moment hedonists.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

hey, shellbean, just wanted to say I think you did fine and seem to be working your way through this very thoughtfully. good for you!









we have our own food issues, and when I talk to DH about them, they seem to be MY food issues, lol. I do get angry when I make something she's eaten before, gone to the trouble of doing so when that isn't what we are eating, and she doesn't want it. I take it personally. I shouldn't.









basically we are working on offering only healthy choices and I have to really work on trusting that when she is sufficiently hungry she will eat what's offered to her if it's something she has eaten successfully before. it works every time, and yet recently I fell back into the pattern of giving in to request for chips or cookies (when we are out and about) because I felt "she won't eat anything else". Today, without any forcing or arguing, i got her to have banana bread instead of cookies. she didn't eat much at first, but later she ate the rest of it (this is how I get fruit in her these days - this kid is SO picky!!).

I think my problem stems from being very picky myself and being made to feel like I was inflicting this deliberately on my family. I was made to stay at the table long past when everybody else was done, made to eat stuff that made me gag...it was horrible. So I have to be concious not to let my own issues get in the way.


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

UUmom- how is it punishing if she's choosing not to eat? I wasn't sending her to bed early for not eating, but if it became bedtime before she chose to eat. (As I posted earlier, she did end up eating, so it's really a moot point at this time, just thinking ahead.) And we do have a bedtime routine, she just doesn't want to miss out on the fun sometimes. I lay with all 3 kids until they go to sleep, ds1 on one side, ds2 nursing on the other and dd next to ds2.

Piglet - thanks. I know I have a lot of shortcomings and I'm trying to overcome them one by one.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
It is wrong to make children eat by the clock and withhold healthy foods when they want them. Period. It reflects a control issue with the parent and is not to the benefit of the child. Provide her with healthy choices, talk with her, let her eat what and when she chooses.

Many parents decide when their infant will eat. Within ap there's an acknowledgement that baby's have wisdom over their own bodies, and should be fed when they are hungry. As adults few us think we need anyone to control when we can eat. Humans do not have a dietary crisis in between infancy and adulthood, in which they need to give up access to the kitchen.











I know it is hard to give up control about food issues, because most of us have heavy cultural baggage. Still, it is important we let go as much as we can.

Kids fight with us about food because we are willing to fight about it.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

We all have shortcomings, don't beat yourself up over that.

Just because I wouldn't punish or withhold foods, does not mean food doesn't have a context in our family life or that decisions are above reproach. Countless issues doubtless shape what and when ds eats. If punishing is bad, so is elevating the issue of food completely out of context, and making all other family dynamics exist at the mercy of it. You do not have to feel like a hostage in the kitchen, staying up past your bedtime waiting for your child to finally decide what she wants for dinner.

Just talk honestly with her. "Hey, you know, I think you are trying to stay up late, and hope if I keep fixing something different, that will keep us up past bedtime". So, if that is what she's doing, it isn't some kind of holy decision that you can't reshape in more realistic, responsible terms for her. I'd try something like "If you wanted to stay up and visit, here is what I can do: I can be ready by xoclock to read and have story time. I need to take care of the baby/pets/dishes right now, and I need you to make your meal decision, and brush teeth. If we can both get our stuff taken care of, I bet we will be ready by x oclock, and then we can tell lots of stories."

I don't think kids need or want us to cater to unreasonable demands, because usually, the unreasonable demand is their attempt at solving a problem they don't know how to solve. I think that is why they have parents, ideally, we are always showing them ways to solve such problems. Don't hit when you are mad, use words instead. Don't ask mommy to make you 5 different meals to get attention, instead, make a reasonable decision, so mommy won't be too tired to have fun afterwards. It's all the same kind of discipline.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shelbean91*
In this instance, I served dinner at 5:30 and bedtime was at 7- she had an hour and a half to eat. She also has wanted something to eat right before bed, just to delay bedtime. What do you do for that?

Ds does that all.the.time. <insert twitching smilie here>

We talked about it. I told him it was very hard for me to tell whether he was actually hungry or he was just trying to avoid going to bed. We ended up striking a deal where he would have a piece of fruit while we were reading our nighttime story. Maybe something like that would work?

Re: control issues with food - I've found, as with so many other control issues, that once I stop trying to exert control, he settles down and does the same. This has literally meant watching him eat nothing but yogurt squeezers (organic, mind you :LOL) for two days straight. Once he realized that I just wasn't going to make an issue of it, though, he started making different choices.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I thought she wanted something to eat before bed. I didn't think I was focusing on 'punish' just how to get some food into her if she wanted food before she went to bed. Not eating at 5, but being hungry at 7 is legit, and a little snack before bed might help. Maybe I mis-understanding. Wouldn't be the first time.


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shelbean91*
I'm trying to find the balance of when she's using food to exercise control and when she's not- if she's hungry, I want her to eat and I don't want her to eat when she's not, like if she's bored. I do boredom eating and it's made me way overweight.

Even if she is using food to exercise control, that is her right, IMHO. It only becomes a power struggle when you decide that, since she's only using food for control, you aren't going to let her "win". Then *you* have engaged in the power struggle. Luckily, she ate before bed and didn't have to spend the whole night tossing and turning because her tummy was grumbling. I believe in natural and logical consequences, but we all make mistakes and should be able to change our minds when we realize that we've just made one. I think it's also important for kids to see that we're flexible and that we care about how they feel more than we care to enforce consequences that cause them discomfort after they've already realized their mistake.


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## mamatoady (Mar 16, 2004)

I don't know if someone else has said it, but maybe if she doesn't want what you cook, you can make the rule that she can go fix a sandwich (or something easy) but she has to make it and she has to clean it up. This saves you from being a short order cook.

Just another thought...is it possible she just wasn't hungry? I wouldn't agree with making them eat the noodles if they just aren't hungry-especially since you guys seem so lax about eating times and stuff.

sarah


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

We do not force Emma to eat things she doesnt' like because......... we don't force ourselves to eat things "WE" don't like. So why would it be fair to impose the same on a child?


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

Sarah- I don't have a problem if she wants to get herself something, the problem was she wanted *me* to make something else for her.

MrsMoe- I don't force her to eat things she doesn't like- this was something that she DOES like. She just didn't want to eat it, she wanted me to make something else for her. Did you miss that on my other posts?

If this helps clarify anything- I made a stroganoff/goulash thing. Egg noodles and sauce and meat. I'm sure anyone who is not a vegetarian has had or seen soemthing like this dish in their lifetime and even veggies have at least heard of it. I know she doesn't like sauce, so I gave her a bowl of plain noodles before I mixed the rest all together. She didn't want *those* noodles, she wanted me to make her ramen noodles instead. Now, if I had been trying to get her to eat the whole, already mixed meal- that would be an entirely different story. If she wanted an apple or grapes, or bread or whatever, that would also be different. She wanted me to put off eating my meal to make her something special. Granted, ramen noodles arent that difficult to make, but when I've already given her a modified meal b/c I know she only likes a portion- I'm not going t make something else. If I forgot to keep noodles separate for her, I would have made her the ramen with no problems.


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## MrsMoe (May 17, 2005)

Kids are fickle, and no, I didnt' miss your post. She didn't want it. Maybe at that moment, the idea of eating noddles was a turn off.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I think it would be reasonable for you to say to her 'This is what I made for dinner, and I am sitting down to eat, and if you want something different that needs cooking (I'm thinking at 5 my ds would not have been allowed to boil the water for Ramen), you will have to wait until I am done eating to get my help".

I know it seems like there is no difference between the noodles. The point is that you *might* be right, but you might not. I love spaghetti noodles but I really don't like angel hair. If dh made a great pasta sauce, I'd probably boil spaghetti rather than eat angel hair if that was what he'd cooked to go with it. It just ruins the sauce somehow, and gets all gummy.

You deserve respect and your help in the kitchen should be treated with consideration. I think that is the fear, that if a child gets the impression parents will make anything the child wants, then the child will find this so amusing, they will make outlandish requests, waste food, and wind up with no respect for food or their mothers help in the kitchen. And that could happen, if the parent never rephrased requests in a context that worked for the whole family. But it doesn't have to be like that. You can give her freedom to choose, without giving her total control over you too. If she REALLY wants ramen, she will be happy to wait for ten minutes while you finish your meal. If she is just being fickle, she'll be better able to control her whims in the future because you did not let them run like a mack truck over a dinner you were sitting down to eat. If she wants it, she'll still want it in ten minutes, when you will be able to help her. It's okay for her to snack on the other stuff while mom gets time to eat. Afterwards, ramen all around


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Do you suppose she would get into helping you plan and make the meals, shelbean? If she's in need of more mom time and a certain level of control over her own life, getting her involved in the planning and fixing might help serve both needs.

(Sorry if I've missed that you already do this...)


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

MrsMoe- I was misunderstanding not liking vs. not wanting that you were posting about. To me not liking vs not wanting is a big difference- it sounded like I was tryign to force feed her something awful......like veggies......aaaaahhhhhhh :LOL

Dragonfly-she has helped on some things, but still won't eat the finished product. That is a good suggestion, though.


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## thenson229 (Jun 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
Ooooh, that's the rule here. But, you can't just get something else for dinner here though. You eat what's on the table or nothing. BUT there is always dessert (you get that even if you have eaten NOTHING for dinner).

And there is always a snack before bed. So no one goes to bed hungry. Actually my kids have never been upset about the eat what's on the table or nothing rule. It never really occured to them their was another option until they were older and liked almost everything anyway.


Our rule is the same. But usually there is just enough time after dinner to bathe and get them to bed. So, my rule for my picky eater (just turned 4) is that he has to TRY one bite. He refused, me and dh sent him to bed, and the next morning he was throwing up the acid in his tummy, dry heaves, etc. We gave him some saltines and he was fine. So, I learned my lesson. He will get something on his stomach before bed.

Namewithheld to avoid embarrassment!


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## kiahnsmum (Oct 22, 2004)

I AM SO GLAD I FOUND THIS THREAD!
I have been so strict about meal times I guess i'm just repeating the rules I was brought up with and I cant believe the drama I have put my son throught making him sit and eat or else...








Ds is 5 and it finally dawned on me about a year ago the hell i was putting him (i had asked myself why i was making it such a big deal when i was trying so hard with GD in every other area)
The 'rule' now is you have to give it a go, there is nothing else to eat until bedtime snack and he has to stay at the table until dd is finished or else she will want to get down too.
I found dinner time is soooo easy no stress for me or ds.
He will eat better too if he has helped


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## JaysMama (May 29, 2005)

Just wanted to add my two cents here. My dd has always been small for her age, negative fifth percentile if you can believe that but she's pretty healthy. Anyway her ped has always been concerned about it so we go in for weight checks at Children's Memorial with a nutritionist/weight specialist. What I've learned there is to keep with a schedule. We get up and eat breakfast, 2 hrs later a snack, then lunch, 2 to 3 hrs later a snack, dinner around 6 and a snack before bed. I try to make sure she has a variety of food groups to pick and choose from and that's that. If she doesn't eat it then that's okay. I know she'll be hungrier the next time I offer food and she's probably going to dig in. My problem was that I would panic and when she didn't eat at mealtimes I would let her snack and she'd never get that appetite for a meal. My child does not eat enough calories if all she does is graze all day. A vicious circle. Shelbean91, I think I would have offered a yogurt or a piece of fruit or even a bowl of cereal, something you don't have to slave over as a separate meal and if she refused those and what you had already cooked I would have told her too bad for now. Before bed I would have asked her what she wanted for a snack and let her have that but I would not have become a short order cook either. I wouldn't send her to bed with nothing....kids sleep longer than adults and their tummies are too tiny to be without food for that time and to not have dinner either.








BTW, she has been gaining steadily since I've employed the routine, she's up to 25 pounds and has been gaining about a pound and a half a month! Yay! I'm sure slipping nut butters and Udo's oil into everything has helped too.


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

the thing that concerns me with regard to basically alowing my son to have something different (ie yoghurt/sandwich/cereal) when i make dinner at not expect him to eat whatever it is that i have made is that i worry that eating at other peoples houses will be difficult.

i wouldnt expect if he were having dinner at a friends house for them to start making something different for my son.

also i worry that if they dont get used to trying other foods they will not be used to the experience of trying something new and actually become wary of it as it is not something they are used to. (this is something i believe has happened with my ds 1)

i cant help thinking that when people were a lot poorer children used to just have to eat what was put in front of them because there wasnt anything else and i am sure they were perfectly healthy and just glad to be fed as opposed to worrying too much about what it is.

my ds 1 is a very reluctant eater and i do tend to keep meals very simple and only make what he likes but the problem is when we eat anywhere but at home he doesnt want to try anything remotely unfamiliar...


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## mamato3cherubs (Nov 30, 2004)

Wow, I must be terrible. I see this as a complete control issue. You already did something special for her, without her asking you too, so she had no control over it. Because she had no control over it she will seek that elswhere by expanding the issue and demaning something completely different that YOU didn't think of first.

this doesn't go over for me. I don't think I would ever put my 5 year old to bed completely hungry. My 9 year old maybe, his fault then, but not at 5. Anyways, I would never just fix my kids or my husband for that matter a different meal than the one offered just because they don't want it at THAT moment.

I would probably give them(and I have done this before many times) a simple choice, eat what I made, or eat crackers. Plain crackers. nothing great, or fancy or anything they came up with. No, not all that nutritious, but neither are plain noodles. Plus I know that my child won't die from mal-nutrition because of one meal.

My kids do not have control over me at all times. I am good to them , let them make decisions, and so on, but they have to learn and this is a learning stage. It is a test and if they win every time, they loose in real life when they are not home with you to run the show.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
I think it would be reasonable for you to say to her 'This is what I made for dinner, and I am sitting down to eat, and if you want something different that needs cooking (I'm thinking at 5 my ds would not have been allowed to boil the water for Ramen), you will have to wait until I am done eating to get my help".

This is what works for us. Dd has total control over what/when she eats, and I try to consider her preferences when planning meals. But if I miss the mark, and she does not want to eat anything on the table, I will gladly make her something else--*after* I have eaten.

FTR, this is very rarely an issue these days. I can't remember the last time she asked me to prepare something else. But it was fairly common when she was 2 and 3. She is now 4, and is generally too busy talking at dinner to pay much attention to what she is eating, lol.


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## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

The thing I was thinking also, is that b/c she snacks throughout the day, she wasn't really that hungry to begin with. If I snack a lot during the day, I might go to bed without eating. I know that if she's hungry, she won't be able to sleep- so trying to send her to bed as a punishment just wouldn't work anyway- she's not the type that will eventually go to sleep- it's a good thing we never tried CIO!!

I think when she starts school, she will be more open to different things b/c she will see other kids eating other foods. Like I said before, when she's around friends- she's more likely to try something new than when she's just around me. Maybe that is more indication that I have been letting it be a control thing and need to lighten up.

I guess I'm a bit like my dad- most of the time, he was pretty laid back, but every now and then he's get a bug up his butt and make me jump through hoops for one reason or another. I guess I get those same bugs every now and then and just need to let it go!

Thanks for all the great ideas.


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