# LLL Leader giving CIO advice - WWYD?



## BostonianBaby (Feb 25, 2007)

Wow, that's a lot of acronyms in that title!

Anyway, I recently moved and attended my first local LLL meeting last night. At the end of the meeting when the leader opened it up to questions, one mom mentioned that she was having a really hard time nightweaning her 17 month-old. The usual suggestions flew around, including having Daddy take over nighttime parenting, etc. The mom indicated that she intended to try some other approaches but was really at the end of her rope. At this point the LLL leader said that a friend of hers used Ferber on her twins and that they started STTN almost immediately, and that if you're feeling like you're going to crack then it's time to consider sleep training.

I was SHOCKED, but didn't say anything (I'm generally pretty mouthy but it was my first meeting, and DS was pretty wily so I was chasing him around). It was my impression that LLL was anti-CIO, and to her credit, she did clarify that she was speaking as a mom and not for LLL. Still, I thought that it was pretty inappropriate given that she's supposed to be a resource and authority figure of sorts - representing the organization and all that. Am I overreacting? Was it out of line, or just unfortunate?


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

I think it's sad, but I also think that leaders should be entitled to share their own opinions in the "meeting's officially closed" part of the meeting, otherwise they'd never be able to talk about any of the other banned topics either. It's not really fair to expect them to be leaders 24/7.


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## Ks Mama (Aug 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paquerette* 
I think it's sad, but I also think that leaders should be entitled to share their own opinions in the "meeting's officially closed" part of the meeting, otherwise they'd never be able to talk about any of the other banned topics either. It's not really fair to expect them to be leaders 24/7.

Well, I believe LLL while in the position of leadership - which I take to mean that anytime she's in the group of people meeting for the LLL meeting - whether the "meeting is closed" or not. The LLL is supposed to announce at the beginning of the meeting that the things she says represent LLL's beliefs, and anything anyone else says are opinions only, and not necessarily LLL beliefs.
I think saying something like that at a meeting - whether it was at the end or not - if it was fielded as a question in front of the group, or within hearing of folks who are there believing they are listening to a LLL leader - was out of line. When you're in that position of leadership in that setting, you keep your LLLleader hat on, until you're out of that setting.

Advocating sleep training is totally wrong, really ever, but particularly as a LLL leader.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I don't think LLL is against CIO officially.

-Angela


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## Ks Mama (Aug 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I don't think LLL is against CIO officially.

-Angela

Maybe not, but I can't imagine they are for it (just by knowing the books on their book list, and reading articles on their site, etc.... I KNOW the Ferber book that the LLL leader mentioned is NOT on the reading list). A crying infant should be nursed, not left to cry.

So again, I think when a leader is in that role, her personal opinions on the matter should be kept personal, until completely out of that role & meeting setting.


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## BetsyPage (Mar 5, 2004)

I would report your concerns to LLL. Really, please do. Leaders are not really supposed to give advice, and IMO promoting CIO does go against LLL philosophy.


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## Calee (May 10, 2008)

I know a lot of people (I know none of them would acknowledge themselves here) who, when faced with being "completely at the end of their rope" and feeling desperate would try something like this.

If someone is afraid of snapping, "cracking" or of hurting their child, many people feel that ANYTHING to keep that from happening is worth a shot. Maybe the LLL leader wasn't sure HOW desperate this momma was and was worried for her and her baby. Who knows really.


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## CalBearMama (Sep 23, 2005)

I'm no expert, but it's my understanding that LLL leaders are supposed to stop any discussion of CIO that anyone tries to start at a meeting. So the fact that the leader herself suggested it is pretty shocking to me. Maybe she thought that "Ferberizing" is not as harsh as other possible techniques and was trying to help a mom who was in a really bad place, but I still don't think what she did was appropriate.


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## tallulahma (Jun 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BetsyPage* 
I would report your concerns to LLL. Really, please do. Leaders are not really supposed to give advice, and IMO promoting CIO does go against LLL philosophy.

ita.

i find it shocking. she is there in a role of breastfeeding support specialist... not sleeping specialist.

im pretty sure LLL stance on ways to night wean you 17 mo old does not include ferberizing.

she gave sleep training advice when asked a weaning question.


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## BeanyMama (Jul 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BetsyPage* 
I would report your concerns to LLL. Really, please do. Leaders are not really supposed to give advice, and IMO promoting CIO does go against LLL philosophy.









:


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ks Mama* 
Well, I believe LLL while in the position of leadership - which I take to mean that anytime she's in the group of people meeting for the LLL meeting - whether the "meeting is closed" or not. The LLL is supposed to announce at the beginning of the meeting that the things she says represent LLL's beliefs, and anything anyone else says are opinions only, and not necessarily LLL beliefs.
I think saying something like that at a meeting - whether it was at the end or not - if it was fielded as a question in front of the group, or within hearing of folks who are there believing they are listening to a LLL leader - was out of line. When you're in that position of leadership in that setting, you keep your LLLleader hat on, until you're out of that setting.

But that's the whole point of them making a clear distinction that "meeting is closed". At the meetings that I've been to, they were in someone's home and we had the very defined "meeting" time and "post meeting potluck playgroup mama hang out" time wherein we talked about all kinds of things, some that would have been acceptable to LLL and some not. Who is LLL to tell someone what they may talk about in their own home with their own friends, just because there happend to be an LLL meeting there half an hour earlier? Should we all have come back on a different day to discuss politics, religion, non-circing, non-vaxing, homeschooling, etc?

And no, I dont' think anyone should ever give any CIO advice in an ideal world, no one should believe that it's a good thing. But I also have to protect the speech I hate in order to protect the speech I love, kwim?


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## Lolafanana (Dec 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paquerette* 

And no, I dont' think anyone should ever give any CIO advice in an ideal world, no one should believe that it's a good thing. But I also have to protect the speech I hate in order to protect the speech I love, kwim?

I totally agree (and really well said)


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## sparklefairy (May 21, 2005)

I think that CIO advice would run counter to the "loving guidance" philosophy as well as some statements in the Womanly Art of Breastfeeding (which Leaders are supposed to uphold philosophically).

p 101:
"To a baby, it makes no difference whether the sun is up or the world is hushed in darkness. His need for mothering remains. It is no less important at night than during the day."

There are many other parts of the book that discuss possible reasons for night waking and strategize ways to cope.

I think that speaking as a mom and not a Leader more applies to topics on which LLL has no official stance rather than to contradicting LLL philosophy.


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## thyme (Jul 17, 2003)

My local LLL meeting was CIO Central - it was the majority topic of discussion for the two meetings I went to. I never went back.


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## alllyssa (Sep 1, 2004)

There isn't anything wrong w/ a LLL Leader telling a frazzled mama the experience of her friend after the meeting was over. This leader was not giving her advice or telling her what to do or even telling her what she did (which may be construed as advice - "I did it and it worked for me so you should try it too"). I think the OP even said that the LLLLeader issued a disclaimer before telling the story of how "ferberizing" worked for her friend.

While LLL does have a philosophy including loving guidance and encourages moms to "ideally" nurse until the child outgrows the need, it's sole purpose is to educate and support women who choose to breastfeed their babies for as long as they decide to - that includes at night.

La Leche League Medical Associate, Dr. Jay Gordon, advocates a night weaning program for nursing toddlers over the age of one, _when nighttime nursing isn't working for mama anymore_.

http://www.drjaygordon.com/development/ap/sleep.asp

Respectfully,


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## BostonianBaby (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi all - thanks for your responses! To address a few things that have come up:

Quote:

But that's the whole point of them making a clear distinction that "meeting is closed". At the meetings that I've been to, they were in someone's home and we had the very defined "meeting" time and "post meeting potluck playgroup mama hang out" time...
It wasn't my impression that the meeting was "closed" when this question was asked - there was no clear distinction made. It wasn't just casual chit-chat, it was the Q&A session scheduled to follow the monthly discussion. So IMO, it was still part of the meeting (which was held at a local church - not someone's home - and didn't segue into any after-meeting hang-out/potluck type of gathering). I would probably feel differently if there had been some kind of official end to the meeting, and then we'd all stuck around to talk and eat while the kids played.

Quote:

If someone is afraid of snapping, "cracking" or of hurting their child, many people feel that ANYTHING to keep that from happening is worth a shot. Maybe the LLL leader wasn't sure HOW desperate this momma was and was worried for her and her baby. Who knows really.
The mama asking the nightweaning question didn't say she was going to "crack" or "snap." She expressed that she was very tired and felt "at the end of [her] rope." It was the LLL leader who introduced that language by saying, "if you're feeling like you're going to crack, then it's time to consider sleep training." It's certainly possible that she wasn't sure how close this mama was teetering to the edge, but the tone of the original question was more one of frustration (not desperation). But I totally get what you're saying - it's hard to know how severe a given situation is.

Quote:

This leader was not giving her advice or telling her what to do...
Building on the last item, I do personally feel that she was giving advice by saying what she did. In my book stating "if this happens, then you should do this" is pretty clearly advising someone.

Quote:

La Leche League Medical Associate, Dr. Jay Gordon, advocates a night weaning program for nursing toddlers over the age of one, when nighttime nursing isn't working for mama anymore.
To clarify, I don't there's anything wrong with helping someone figure out how best to nightwean at 17 mo. Heck, I'm probably going to nightwean DS around 18 mo! What I took issue with was that the suggested method of doing so was to use Ferber. I was pretty sure that LLL leaders were instructed to steer conversation away from all things CIO, if possible.


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## madsommer (Aug 22, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alllyssa* 
There isn't anything wrong w/ a LLL Leader telling a frazzled mama the experience of her friend after the meeting was over. This leader was not giving her advice or telling her what to do or even telling her what she did (which may be construed as advice - "I did it and it worked for me so you should try it too"). I think the OP even said that the LLLLeader issued a disclaimer before telling the story of how "ferberizing" worked for her friend.

While LLL does have a philosophy including loving guidance and encourages moms to "ideally" nurse until the child outgrows the need, it's sole purpose is to educate and support women who choose to breastfeed their babies for as long as they decide to - that includes at night.

La Leche League Medical Associate, Dr. Jay Gordon, advocates a night weaning program for nursing toddlers over the age of one, _when nighttime nursing isn't working for mama anymore_.

http://www.drjaygordon.com/development/ap/sleep.asp

Respectfully,

I agree. I think the other posters are being a little hard on the leader. Each group is also very different and it won't be run perfectly, but if the mother was really in distress, the leader was being a friend and source of support by saying that if the other options weren't working for her, here is something that did for another person. I had to let my little one CIO a few times...while it hurt my heart, I also was having a visions of throwing him from the rocker. So whatever helps someone cope the best, it's up to them and not for others to be so judgemental.


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## BetsyPage (Mar 5, 2004)

LLL leaders are *always* representatives of LLL... once they are "known" as leaders my understanding is that they always need to be mindful that they are representing LLL, especially in a meeting situation.

I think at the very least because it did make the OP uncomfortable, it would be a good thing to be brought to that leaders' attention, so that she could be more mindful in the future. I know LLL leaders are human too, of course, so perhaps she didn't realize how it would come across.









I do not believe that the Jay Gordon plan is officially endorsed by LLL? I'm not aware of any sleep training material that is promoted by LLL, someone correct me if I'm wrong...


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## ewe+lamb (Jul 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I don't think LLL is against CIO officially.

-Angela

I haven't read all the replies so do excuse me if this has been repeated - here goes!!

I really disagree here - here is a quote from the Womanly Art of Breastfeeding in Chapter 6 - '*The sound of a baby crying in not easy to ignore. It is not intended to be. Your baby's cry is meant to be disturbing, for it is his most important means of communication. Only by crying can he let you know that he needs you to help him - to come to his rescue. Something is bothering him or frightening him*.'
This is an article from the website about sleep http://www.llli.org/FAQ/sleep.html the last paragraph talks about CIO and explains that responding to the babies needs is the most important. Although LLL does not say this officially, I think it is widely presumed through the philosophies and mission that every leader must agree with and sign that they do so that responding to the babies needs = not letting the baby CIO. You can look up the philosophies on the LLL website.

In this instance, I would phone the LLL International and make a complaint, when a Leader is a Leader and everyone knows that we are, unfortunately we represent LLL no matter where or when, LLL is an undertaking we take on not only to present our mission and philosophies to the general public but something that we have taken on in our own personal lives - sometimes Leaders need to be gently guided back on to the path that they have chosen to represent, and if their lives have evolved on from LLL then we can also choose not to continue. If I heard a one of my co-leaders or any leader for that matter make such a comment within or OUT of a meeting I would feel obliged to take this matter further.


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## ewe+lamb (Jul 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CalBearMama* 
I'm no expert, but it's my understanding that LLL leaders are supposed to stop any discussion of CIO that anyone tries to start at a meeting. So the fact that the leader herself suggested it is pretty shocking to me. Maybe she thought that "Ferberizing" is not as harsh as other possible techniques and was trying to help a mom who was in a really bad place, but I still don't think what she did was appropriate.

This is absolutely correct, as soon as someone mentions the topic of CIO the response to this is that this not something that LLL recommends, we would suggest in this instance to nurse or hold the baby, and also offer reading material to back up this sort of situation such as Nighttime Parenting by Sears, Good Nights by Gordon. Ask other mothers in the group for their experience in this sort of situation - at the end of the day LLL is about information and also an exchange of experiences through mothering from all mothers at the meeting.


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## liseux (Jul 3, 2004)

LLL is officially against CIO. I wish they were officially against other things involving surgery and small male babies, but they are definitely officially opposed to CIO. They made statements against babywise when that book was a big hit about 10 years ago & its all in the Womanly Art as ewe+lamb says.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

Unless you know that this is the other mother's first meeting, the leader knows more about her than you do. Maybe she knows that the other mohter has been struggling with PPD since the birth, is anaemic and wiped out. Maybe she knows that the other mother has- oh, say, MS. Maybe she knows that the other mother has been up every hour on the hour for the last 17 months, because they've had this discussion week in week out at every other meeting. As a newcomer, it can be hard to judge these situations, kwim?
Speak for yourself. Give an alternative. LLL also clearly says that you take only what works for your family and that people have to make these decisions for themselves.


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## ewe+lamb (Jul 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flapjack* 
Unless you know that this is the other mother's first meeting, the leader knows more about her than you do. Maybe she knows that the other mohter has been struggling with PPD since the birth, is anaemic and wiped out. Maybe she knows that the other mother has- oh, say, MS. Maybe she knows that the other mother has been up every hour on the hour for the last 17 months, because they've had this discussion week in week out at every other meeting. As a newcomer, it can be hard to judge these situations, kwim?
Speak for yourself. Give an alternative. LLL also clearly says that you take only what works for your family and that people have to make these decisions for themselves.

This maybe the case, but if this is being discussed within a meeting then the Leader should explain or ask the mother to explain her situation so that this sort of thing does not arise. Again, no Leader should recommend CIO in any situation, it is NOT within the LLL philosophies and each Leader signs an agreement adhering to that which LLL believes to be correct. Yes, they do say "*take what information you need and leave all the rest behind, there are things that suit one family and not another*", but a Leader cannot and should not say that letting a baby CIO is a possibility regardless of the situation, in addition if the Leader is struggling there is a support structure for Leaders where they can research the information they require from the Leader's website or forums.


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## mamarootoo (Sep 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flapjack* 
As a newcomer, it can be hard to judge these situations, kwim?

i think that since there was a newcomer there, the LLL leader is even more off base for advocating CIO.
what if the newcomer had been a new mama looking for information? if i had heard a LLL leader advocating CIO when my babe was 3 months old, (when everyone and their dog was telling me i needed to let her cry or she'd never lear to sleep) i don't know how that would have affected me-- and i was already committed to *not* letting my baby CIO, and starting to get into NFL.

if the leader was worried about the mama "snapping" she should have saved the CIO advice for a private conversation after the meeting at the very least.


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## To-Fu (May 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BetsyPage* 
I would report your concerns to LLL. Really, please do. Leaders are not really supposed to give advice, and IMO promoting CIO does go against LLL philosophy.

I would report it, too. I mean, maybe they'll say it's fine, or that LLL has no stance on CIO/sleep training. But maybe the reverse is also true. It's worth a shot to fire off an email/letter and find out.

Sleep-deprived mamas at LLL are often desperate for advice and I'd hate to think how many people heard the LLL leader suggest CIO and then maybe start thinking it's not so bad, you know?


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## Mulvah (Aug 12, 2008)

I would write/call the leader, not LLL. There are many great points in this post, but without getting into a circular debate, I would recommend contacting the leader to express your opinion.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paquerette* 
... I also have to protect the speech I hate in order to protect the speech I love, kwim?

In general, I like this statement!


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## Writerbird (Jun 1, 2007)

Perhaps the leader's sole experience with Ferber (second hand, remember) wasn't actually bad. My SIL, bless her, tells everyone she Ferberized her four month old.

But here's the thing. She had an easy sleeper from the beginning, who, during the first night of Ferberizing, complained for a few minutes before immediately STTN. And supposedly never cried again.

That's not Ferber. That's learning that sometimes your kid just wants to be put down in order to settle.

If my SIL had drawn my child, who endured one attempt at this crap before I realized I should have stuck to my guns and ignored the "advice," she would not be so impressed with Ferber.

Could be this leader has a friend like my SIL, and the lack of perspective is giving her a limited view.

Just trying to think the best of people -


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## HairyArmpits (Aug 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BetsyPage* 
I would report your concerns to LLL. Really, please do. Leaders are not really supposed to give advice, and IMO promoting CIO does go against LLL philosophy.









:
there have been some good examples here of when this advice might have been more appropriate, but if it goes against the LLL ideals, then it should NOT have been said during an LLL meeting, especially by a LLL leader.
I would blow that whistle mama, we need to protect what few support systems we have.


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## Delicateflower (Feb 1, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paquerette* 
I think it's sad, but I also think that leaders should be entitled to share their own opinions in the "meeting's officially closed" part of the meeting, otherwise they'd never be able to talk about any of the other banned topics either. It's not really fair to expect them to be leaders 24/7.

I don't agree. They don't have to be leaders 24/7, just during meetings. My LLL meeting leader used to only discuss forbidden topics when everyone but the hardcore group of regulars had left. And if we strayed into that sort of territory during a meeting she would mention LLL's position. But at that group it was usually about milk sharing or the evils of circumcision, not advocating CIO.


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