# S/O of a S/O Do you consider RIC sexual abuse?



## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

The title says it all, do you personally consider RIC sexual abuse? I think so, even though it is legal. Just because something is legal doesn't make it ethical. I'm adding a poll.

This is a spin off from a few posts in this thread. Specifically posts number 1, 81, 82, 83, 89, 90, 91, and 92.


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## yokosmile (Apr 22, 2007)

I absolutely consider it sexual abuse.


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## purplestraws (Sep 13, 2006)

Honestly, I'm not sure how you could call it anything else?

If people were doing this to adults it would absolutely be considered sexual abuse. Just because an innocent baby doesn't have the words to say no, it's not?

I know, I'm preaching to the choir here...


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Intentions cannot be understood nor felt by the child. While some medical procedures have therapeutic necessity and we have to deal with the evils that come with them...circumcision is not necessary. So...

The child is made naked.

The are strapped down in a spread eagle position with their genitals presented.

Pieces of their genitals are clamped and crushed....they are tied off or safety pinned...allowed to rot off or are cut or torn. Some accounts say that doctors stimulate an erection before the use of certain clamps, though I cannot say if this is true.

Then, as is the case with most circumcised boys in the USA, they are made to endure days, months, weeks, and sometimes even years of their caregivers manipulating their penis by push back the remaining foreskin and sometimes even applying barrier cream each time.

If it was a girl and there were no therapeutic reasons for doing such things, how would we view it?


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## urchin_grey (Sep 26, 2006)

Absolutely.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

No doubt about it.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

With out a doubt it is abuse.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

It would be nice to hear the reasoning of why circumcision is not abusive from the four people who voted that way. I'm truly interested to hear how anyone can consider an infant being strapped down and having part of his completely normal body removed solely on the consent of another person does not cross the bounderies of abuse.

Perhaps, if you don't want to post publicly, you could PM your response to someone on this thread who can then quote you but leave your name off the quote.


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## Fellow Traveler (Jan 8, 2008)

Of course.


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## vegemamato (Jul 4, 2007)

Yes, it *is* abuse.


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

We have to be careful because there are so many caregivers that have been talked into this without full knowledge and there is a lot of regret out there. While, in my heart, I feel circumcision is abusive, it's tough to talk about it in that light when we are trying to change the hearts of others (and even those who have come to our side may feel put out or upset by this kind of categorization)

It's a tough line to walk....but I think it must be a lot like those who are very pro life and feel abortion is akin to murder but don't talk about it like that when they are trying to change the hearts of others.


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## tanyam926 (May 25, 2005)

Okay, I am not sure why everyone thinks that RIC is SEXUAL abuse. I agree with the abuse part, but from my understanding sexual abuse is for the sexual gratification of the abuser.

I think RIC is abuse just like cutting off any other body part, but I think terming it sexual abuse is a huge leap.


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## ThreeBeans (Dec 2, 2006)

It's sexual abuse, pure and simple, just the way female circumcision is sexual abuse. The motive behind it might be slightly different than say a pedophile's motive, but when it comes down to i, all kinds of abuse, including sexual abuse, are about absolute power over a terrified victim....and that's pretty much what male genital mutilation is.


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## mija y mijo (Dec 6, 2006)

I'm not sure...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tanyam926* 
Okay, I am not sure why everyone thinks that RIC is SEXUAL abuse. I agree with the abuse part, but from my understanding sexual abuse is for the sexual gratification of the abuser.

I think RIC is abuse just like cutting off any other body part, but I think terming it sexual abuse is a huge leap.

I think I agree here. Circumcision is ABUSE. Plain and simple. But SEXUAL abuse... I don't know.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Okay, this is a thought in progress, so bear with me.

I think all abuse depends on perspective.

Routine infant circumcision, meaning specifically the circumcision done to infant boys at birth for *no medical reason*, is always (sexual) abuse from the perspective of the baby because he is having part of his body amputated. It happens to be a sexual part of the body, and the removal does have effects on sexual functioning later in life, so it's not too farfetched to consider it sexual abuse. A person could argue that since a baby does not have the words to describe how he feels, then there is no way to know that he perceives RIC as an abuse or an assault against his body. However, ask the vast majority of people if they would feel they had been abused (or assaulted, which might be a more accurate term, but I'm not really here to argue semantics) if as adults they were drugged and had a section of skin and tissue the size of an adult man's foreskin removed from their upper thigh, high enough to normally be covered by clothing. How many of them would not feel abused in some way?

RIC is often, but not always, considered abuse by the men and women who have been affected by the practice. This includes both men who grow up to find that their penis was changed from it's natural state for no reason at birth, and men and women who realize that circumcision has affected their sex life.

Just because circumcision falls under the category of abuse does not mean the parent who chose it is an abuser, or they don't love their kids, or that they abuse them in other ways. I've always been of the mindset that it's nice to be considerant of adult's feelings, but the bodily integrity of a person is much more important than feelings. It might take hurting a few feelings to get the idea out that RIC is not acceptable any longer. As long as we tone down the language of how terrible RIC is in the effort to not offend anyone who feels bad about circumcision we are telling people that it's not really that big of a deal. The message they get is, "Oh, it's bad, but not bad enough to really raise some noise about, so it's not _that_ bad."

Does any of that make sense?


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## Fellow Traveler (Jan 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carriebft* 
We have to be careful because there are so many caregivers that have been talked into this without full knowledge and there is a lot of regret out there. While, in my heart, I feel circumcision is abusive, it's tough to talk about it in that light when we are trying to change the hearts of others (and even those who have come to our side may feel put out or upset by this kind of categorization)

It's a tough line to walk....but I think it must be a lot like those who are very pro life and feel abortion is akin to murder but don't talk about it like that when they are trying to change the hearts of others.

Agreed.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tanyam926* 
Okay, I am not sure why everyone thinks that RIC is SEXUAL abuse. I agree with the abuse part, but from my understanding sexual abuse is for the sexual gratification of the abuser.

I think RIC is abuse just like cutting off any other body part, but I think terming it sexual abuse is a huge leap.

I see your point.


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

Yes I do. You have to be severely messed up in the head to perform a circumcision.


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## DreamsInDigital (Sep 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purplestraws* 
Honestly, I'm not sure how you could call it anything else?

If people were doing this to adults it would absolutely be considered sexual abuse. Just because an innocent baby doesn't have the words to say no, it's not?

I know, I'm preaching to the choir here...

















:


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## robertandenith (Apr 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carriebft* 
Intentions cannot be understood nor felt by the child. While some medical procedures have therapeutic necessity and we have to deal with the evils that come with them...circumcision is not necessary. So...

The child is made naked.

The are strapped down in a spread eagle position with their genitals presented.

Pieces of their genitals are clamped and crushed....they are tied off or safety pinned...allowed to rot off or are cut or torn. Some accounts say that doctors stimulate an erection before the use of certain clamps, though I cannot say if this is true.

Then, as is the case with most circumcised boys in the USA, they are made to endure days, months, weeks, and sometimes even years of their caregivers manipulating their penis by push back the remaining foreskin and sometimes even applying barrier cream each time.

If it was a girl and there were no therapeutic reasons for doing such things, how would we view it?









:


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## anne1140 (Apr 10, 2007)

I definitely do think it is abuse, but I think it's different than, say, raping someone, because many parents who circ aren't doing it to specifically harm their kids. It's just all they know, and they don't really think about it. I'm not saying that's an excuse at all, but we need to get the truth out to people, so that they can have all the facts, and hopefully choose to not circ in the future.

I'm going to make an analogy, and I know it's not exactly the same thing, but I think you'll get my point. I have two cats, and I got them both declawed without really looking into it, just assuming that's what you do. Well, my second cat had a really hard recovery, and I felt terrible for him. I decided from that point on that I would never declaw another cat again. It was a pointless and cosmetic surgery for my convenience. Was it abuse? I believe so. But it wasn't the same thing as kicking my cats or starving them, because I wasn't intentionally harming them, KWIM?

Now, in regards to circ, it all changes when they DO have the info, but decide to circ anyway.


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## mija y mijo (Dec 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purplestraws* 
Honestly, I'm not sure how you could call it anything else?

If people were doing this to adults it would absolutely be considered sexual abuse. Just because an innocent baby doesn't have the words to say no, it's not?

I definitely see your point.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anne1140* 
I definitely do think it is abuse, but I think it's different than, say, raping someone, because many parents who circ aren't doing it to specifically harm their kids. It's just all they know, and they don't really think about it. I'm not saying that's an excuse at all, but we need to get the truth out to people, so that they can have all the facts, and hopefully choose to not circ in the future.

I agree.


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## treemom2 (Oct 1, 2003)

Very interesting thread. Before reading the post, I did put in the poll that I do consider it sexual abuse. However, there have been some great posts that now have me second thinking my response. While I do think the child is being sexually abused, who is the sexual abuser? Is it the doctor performing this completely unnecessary act (especially because they know medically it isn't necessary)? I do know that I cannot be friends with a doc here I know who performs RIC as part of her duties here on the base even though her other views mesh with mine (other AP/NFL values) which is way hard to find here. Hmmm, things to think about. . .


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## bluetoes (May 12, 2007)

It is most certainly child abuse, but I don't consider it sexual abuse. It is evil and horrible, but different because of the motives behind it.


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## sunkissedmumma67 (Jul 9, 2007)

WOW, I have 3 kids, 2 daughters and 1 son, my son is 19 and he was circumsized as a newborn, i had it done because everybody i knew had their sons circumsized. Honestly i didn't know much about it. I definetly don't think its sexual abuse, thats just crazy, yes in sexual abuse there has to be a person who is getting sexual gratification. No one is. I do think it is abuse. Though knowing what i know now, i would not circumsize. Its so painful for baby and serves no real purpose. I really don't understand why its so recconmened.


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## aurora_skys (Apr 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carriebft* 
Intentions cannot be understood nor felt by the child. While some medical procedures have therapeutic necessity and we have to deal with the evils that come with them...circumcision is not necessary. So...

The child is made naked.

The are strapped down in a spread eagle position with their genitals presented.

Pieces of their genitals are clamped and crushed....they are tied off or safety pinned...allowed to rot off or are cut or torn. Some accounts say that doctors stimulate an erection before the use of certain clamps, though I cannot say if this is true.

Then, as is the case with most circumcised boys in the USA, they are made to endure days, months, weeks, and sometimes even years of their caregivers manipulating their penis by push back the remaining foreskin and sometimes even applying barrier cream each time.

If it was a girl and there were no therapeutic reasons for doing such things, how would we view it?

Couldnt have said it any better. It absolutely is sexual abuse, just as fgm is sexual abuse. Sometimes I get really sad just knowing that most of the guys I know have had to endure this









For something to qualify as sexual abuse does _not_ require that a person get sexual gratification from it. Its just abuse that is of a sexual nature ( in this case, physical abuse involving the genitals.)


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Sure it is sexual abuse....it is doing something to someones sexual organs without their consent. It is, at the core, about power...just like rape, etc.

Brief (true) story: when I had my first child a doctor swept my membranes without my consent (I though he was merely doing an internal). While I do not think he did it for sexual gratification - I still felt assaulted.

In the case of circ - it can affect later feelings and experiences of sexuality - it is robbing a child of his right to an intact sexual relationship...how is this not sexual assault???


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## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

I do not think it's sexual abuse. I am anti-circ my son is not and no man in my immediate family is(father, husband, brother, etc) but I'm not willing to label it sexual abuse flat out wrong yes.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Here is something to think about.

A) The ridged band and frenulum, two parts of the foreskin amputated during RIC are the most sensitive parts of the penis. Amputating them is equivilant to a woman losing her clitoris, which is the most sensitive part of the female genital anatomy.

B) The foreskin, especially in an infant, but often in adults, protects the urinary meatus from irritants in the same way the inner labia protects the meatus (and clitoris) of a girl.

I know it's hard for many people to accept how much RIC parallels FGM because our culture has ingrained in us that male circumcision doesn't affect boys like it does girls. Something to think about, though.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

i would say yes,it is abusive.


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Okay, to those (2 so far) who chose that they consider circumcision to be non-abusive *only* because it's legal:

I don't understand your position at all and I'm wondering why on earth you feel that the legal status of an action is what determines whether the action is abusive or not. Does that mean that you consider female circumcision to be non-abusive in the countries where it's legal as well?

love and peace.


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tanyam926* 
Okay, I am not sure why everyone thinks that RIC is SEXUAL abuse. I agree with the abuse part, but from my understanding sexual abuse is for the sexual gratification of the abuser.

I think RIC is abuse just like cutting off any other body part, but I think terming it sexual abuse is a huge leap.


Have you read anything by the pedophile (I mean Clinical Professor in Pediatrics) Dr. Schoen? He writes poems about circumcision...I think he really gets off on it!

Quote:

Noncircumcised males are the "genital chic"--
if your foreskin is gone, you are now up the creek.
It's a great work of art like the statue of Venus*,
if you're wearing a hat on the head of your penis.

...

When you gaze through a looking glass, don't think of Alice;
don't rue that you suffered a rape of your phallus.
Just hope that one day you can say with a smile
that your glans ain't passe; it will rise up in style.

Edgar J. Schoen, MD
Department of Pediatrics
Kaiser Permanente Medical Center
http://www.circumstitions.com/Schoens.html

I truly believe that there are a lot of Dr. and other circumcisors out there that really enjoy what they do. I'm not sure if it's a Phyco thing...It was done to me so I must do it to others...or if they are just incredibly demented.


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trmpetplaya* 
Okay, to those (2 so far) who chose that they consider circumcision to be non-abusive *only* because it's legal:

I don't understand your position at all and I'm wondering why on earth you feel that the legal status of an action is what determines whether the action is abusive or not. Does that mean that you consider female circumcision to be non-abusive in the countries where it's legal as well?

love and peace.









It used to be legal to beat your children...Your wife...I guess that wasn't abuse at the time. Did it become abuse only after the laws were changed? Or did it become abuse and they changed the laws?


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## Magali (Jun 8, 2007)

I do, without question. Before ds was born I had no intention of circing him, but because it is unnecessary and painful. As I read more about circ I am filled with this horrible feeling every time I think about it. How could it be anything other than sexual abuse? It is mutilating a sexual part of the body.


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## AXEius (Jul 8, 2006)

abuse on sex organs is sexual abuse, plain and simple. THE ABUSE TO THE VICTIM IS THE SAME NO MATTER WHAT THE ABUSER'S INTENTIONS ARE.


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## CorasMama (May 10, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carriebft* 
Intentions cannot be understood nor felt by the child.

You just changed my mind. I had voted the last option, but now I feel I'd vote the first. I was thinking that I'd only label it sexual abuse if it were done by parents who knew how wrong it was, but obviously you're right.

Many men feel absolutely violated by having been circumcised. One of the things I frequently use as an anti-circ argument is: Just because they can't conciously remember it as an adult doesn't mean it's okay to do to a child.


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## SammyJr (Aug 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tanyam926* 
Okay, I am not sure why everyone thinks that RIC is SEXUAL abuse. I agree with the abuse part, but from my understanding sexual abuse is for the sexual gratification of the abuser.

As a male, I definitely think circumcision is sexual assault. I certainly feel violated by the procedure and I don't know if I could control myself if I ever encountered the individual who assaulted me.

As far as sexual gratification felt by the circumcisor, I think it would be very enlightening to monitor the sexual arousal of the circumcisor while he's butchering the boy. I'll bet there'd be a lot of people having to list as sexual predators.


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

I feel very strongly about it! (as if any one who knows me doesn't already know that







)

I feel so strongly about it that one of my 5 anti circ bumper stickers says:

"Sexual assault is not medicine" with circumcision crossed out in a circle.

I also have a sweatshirt that says:

"Circumcision is baby rape"


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## Bm31 (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AXEius* 
abuse on sex organs is sexual abuse, plain and simple. THE ABUSE TO THE VICTIM IS THE SAME NO MATTER WHAT THE ABUSER'S INTENTIONS ARE.









:

And when parents are supposedly "informed" and have done their "research" and STILL go ahead with it, I consider it to be not only abuse, but sadistic as well.







:


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## Miranda2r14 (Jan 20, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tanyam926* 
Okay, I am not sure why everyone thinks that RIC is SEXUAL abuse. I agree with the abuse part, but from my understanding sexual abuse is for the sexual gratification of the abuser.

I think RIC is abuse just like cutting off any other body part, but I think terming it sexual abuse is a huge leap.

Rape is not about sexual gratification at all actually. It's about control and power. The more I learn about RIC, the more I believe that yes, it is sexual abuse.


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

To me, the child not being able to understand intentions is a big part; when put together with the nontherapeutic nature of the surgery, the actions done to the genitals, and the aftercare manipulation...that's what really gets it across the line for me.

But, like I said....this isn't something I talk about a lot because it creates a big wall.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tanyam926* 
Okay, I am not sure why everyone thinks that RIC is SEXUAL abuse. I agree with the abuse part, but from my understanding sexual abuse is for the sexual gratification of the abuser.

I think RIC is abuse just like cutting off any other body part, but I think terming it sexual abuse is a huge leap.

I agree with this post. I know the OP has already blocked me because of this exact fact- because I disagree with her about RIC being sexual abuse. But I'm going to say it anyway- your poll options are completely misleading. Your original question asks if we think RIC is "sexual abuse" but then the word "sexual" doesn't appear in any of the options. And choice #2 is crazy- who would think it's not abuse JUST because it's legal- how are those two things related at all? But I'm sure people will choose that option because they don't have a better one to choose.

So yes, I would have chosen #1 because I would agree that it's "an abuse against an innocent person", but I didn't, because I think you are asking people to agree with you that it's sexual abuse even though you didn't word it that way.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
Sure it is sexual abuse....it is doing something to someones sexual organs without their consent. It is, at the core, about power...just like rape, etc.

I'm not sure I understand you- who is the one with the power in this situation- the parent, the doctor, ...?? I don't think parents are doing it for power reasons, I think they are simply uneducated and are believing what those in the medical profession tell them (that it is safe, healthy, necessary, etc.)

----

So, if I am to convince myself that RIC is sexual abuse, then imagine how that would change my life and my relationships. I now have to call my 13yo. godson and tell him, "I'm sorry kiddo, but you need to know that your mother and father sexually abused you as a baby. And BTW, you are not a complete person as a result." Why don't I just skip the birthday presents and send a check for therapy instead?!? Imagine the repercussions of throwing that term at mainstream society!

If you want to change the minds of hundreds of thousands of people, I would seriously recommend choosing some different words than sexual abuse. Rather than making people listen, you will put them on the defensive and they will immediately start tuning you out whenever you talk about it. Seriously- I think everyone out there knows at LEAST one person that has circumcised a child. Do you really think it's best to start hating those people and labeling them as sexual abusers? Is that really the best way to bring about change in our society???


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## kblackstone444 (Jun 17, 2007)

I hate these threads. Don't get me wrong- I understand the point of all the anti-circ threads and I agree with them- they are very important and hopefully make people think before they circ... but I circed my son when he was born. I was stupid, uneducated and pressured by the people around me. How do I agree that circing is abuse, sexual abuse at that, when I circed my own son? How do I *NOT* agree, when it is clearly the wrong thing to do, for so many reasons? Where does it leave the people in the middle, like me, who don't completely fit into the "yeah, circing is evil and horrible people do it to their helpless baby boys" and certainly don't fit into the "no big deal" mindset, either.

Sigh. Sorry. Don't feel well, had a very bad day. Probably should go to bed now.


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## purplestraws (Sep 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *harleyhalfmoon* 
How do I agree that circing is abuse, sexual abuse at that, when I circed my own son? How do I *NOT* agree, when it is clearly the wrong thing to do, for so many reasons? Where does it leave the people in the middle, like me, who don't completely fit into the "yeah, circing is evil and horrible people do it to their helpless baby boys" and certainly don't fit into the "no big deal" mindset, either.

I think it's just about having the courage to call it what it is.

Honestly, I don't think that ANYONE (well, hopefully...) has their son circumcised because they think they are sexually abusing him. We've just been so brainwashed to think that it's a acceptable and NECESSARY practice that the ability to look at circumcision for what it is...abuse...is nearly impossible for most people. However, refusing to recognize it as such just to avoid hurt feelings is not only wrong, but justifying the abuse of future boys.

It's really a catch 22. At a point where circumcision is still so widely accepted and encouraged...do you sugarcoat the awfulness that it is to avoid hurt feelings or do you stand up and advocate for those that are being abused while running the risk of offending the abusers?

If it were a little 2 year old girl being sexually assaulted by her uncle, would you say, "Yes, it was wrong. Her uncle just couldn't control himself, though. He already feels bad enough about it. Let's just tell him he was wrong...the little girl will get over it and be no worse for the wear. She was young enough she won't even remember it."


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

I think in most cases, I would not consider the parent the abuser...At least those who didn't know better...

It's the circumcisors...medical and ritual. They are in the position of power and they know better. I really don't believe that there is a single care giver out there who truly does not know the damage they are causing.


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## purplestraws (Sep 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fyrestorm* 
I think in most cases, I would not consider the parent the abuser...At least those who didn't know better...

It's the circumcisors...medical and ritual. They are in the position of power and they know better. I really don't believe that there is a single care giver out there who truly does not know the damage they are causing.

Definitely agree with this...


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

I can't vote on your poll because none of them say, no, I don't think it's _sexual_ abuse, but I do think it is _physically_ abusive.


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## MomInSanJose (Mar 16, 2008)

Fondling is illegal sexual abuse.

Mutilating is legal sexual torture.

It is so strange that sexual torture is perfectly legal as it pertains to infant circumcisions. So strange and horrifying. The doctors are the torturers. They should, and do know better. The parents aren't the abusers, but the ones who hand their children off to the torturers, to do their thing, without having an understanding of what is actually done and all the ramifications of it.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 

I'm not sure I understand you- who is the one with the power in this situation- the parent, the doctor, ...?? I don't think parents are doing it for power reasons, I think they are simply uneducated and are believing what those in the medical profession tell them (that it is safe, healthy, necessary, etc.)

----

It is about power because the person doing it (the circumcision) has all the power and the infant has none. I would say the parent, the doctor, and to a degree society are the ones with power.

So, if I am to convince myself that RIC is sexual abuse, then imagine how that would change my life and my relationships. I now have to call my 13yo. godson and tell him, "I'm sorry kiddo, but you need to know that your mother and father sexually abused you as a baby. And BTW, you are not a complete person as a result." Why don't I just skip the birthday presents and send a check for therapy instead?!? Imagine the repercussions of throwing that term at mainstream society!

That is a hard question. I was thinking the same thing myself about my DH yesterday. Should I point out that I think he was sexually assaulted by his doctors/parents? What purpose would that serve? and would that be me - assualting him (emotionally?) His path has not included focusing on this - maybe at some point his path will change - but until them I am not foisting this on him....

As per if I had a circ'ed son, or even a circ'ed godson - I would definately apologise! For my own child - whenever I felt the need - for a godson - only if it was brought up or appropriate. "I am so sorry I agreed to your circumscision. I did not know any better (and maybe I should have) and deeply regret it". With a godson: "I am sorry I did not speak up about circ'ing" or "I wish I had been able to make my points more clearly and spare you this pain" I

f you want to change the minds of hundreds of thousands of people, I would seriously recommend choosing some different words than sexual abuse. Rather than making people listen, you will put them on the defensive and they will immediately start tuning you out whenever you talk about it. Seriously- I think everyone out there knows at LEAST one person that has circumcised a child. Do you really think it's best to start hating those people and labeling them as sexual abusers? Is that really the best way to bring about change in our society???

But I am not talking to society at large - this is an anti-circ board









I think (pray!) the day may come society at large sees circ'ing as a sexual violation - maybe it will be done less









Kathy


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## chrissy (Jun 5, 2002)

no, i do not consider it sexual abuse.

(my boys are NOT circ'ed for the record).


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Kathy- you made some really good points in your post, and thanks for responding to mine. I just wanted to respond to one thing you said though:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
But I am not talking to society at large - this is an anti-circ board









What is the point of discussing it on an anti-circ board if it's not intended to make any difference in society? Everyone here is just hanging out complaining about it, but not trying to make a change? Just trying to convince people here on MDC that RIC is bad is kind of redundant, as _many_ (probably most) already see it that way. KWIM?

I'm trying to think of ways that I can educate people I know about the dangers of RIC, and I don't think labeling them as pedophiles is really going to serve that purpose. That's just the point I was trying to make.


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## Bm31 (Jun 5, 2005)

While he doesn't directly call it abusive, this all reminds me of this great quote from Dr. Fleiss: "The antisexual motivations behind an operation that entails cutting off part of the penis are obvious."


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 
Kathy- you made some really good points in your post, and thanks for responding to mine. I just wanted to respond to one thing you said though:

What is the point of discussing it on an anti-circ board if it's not intended to make any difference in society? Everyone here is just hanging out complaining about it, but not trying to make a change? Just trying to convince people here on MDC that RIC is bad is kind of redundant, as _many_ (probably most) already see it that way. KWIM?

I'm trying to think of ways that I can educate people I know about the dangers of RIC, and I don't think labeling them as pedophiles is really going to serve that purpose. That's just the point I was trying to make.

I think part of it is because MDC is a safe place to vent these rather non-mainstream feelings - which is important.

I also think the idea that circ is sexual abuse is new to many people - hence the discussion here.

As per the real world - I think that is a seperate topic (and a very important one - and the one where most people end up, hopefully. But it is a procees - awareness, anger, grappling - and eventually - activism)). I think if the thread had been "how do we lower circ rates?" pointing out that people might want to be carefull when discussing it is a very valid point. However, that is not this thread.

Edited to add: I just reread your thread. I do not think consenting or performing a circ makes someone a pedeophile. I think it is possible to perform an act that is viewed by the victum as sexually abusive without being a pediophile. For example - I believe the doctor who swept my memebranes assualted me, even though I do not think he got any gratification from it. It was assault due to lack of consent.

I think sexual assault is not about the intent in any way, but is really more about the victum. Did they consent? Were they harmed? I really do not care about the aggressors "intent". Effects are what matter.

Kathy


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## Genesis (Jan 8, 2007)

Didn't read every reply, but my answer is Yes, I absolutely do consider circumcision to be sexual abuse.


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## attachedmamaof3 (Dec 2, 2006)

I think it is physically abusive; I do not think that it is sexual abuse.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

I haven't read the entire thread, so forgive me if this has already been addressed specifically...but if anyone was sticking a finger or object into a baby girl's vagina or a baby boy or baby girl's anus without a clear medical NEED to do so wouldn't we call it sexual abuse? Sexual abuse isn't always about arousal or orgasm of the perpetrator.

It's often a power thing. Ie, "I'm doing this because I can or because you deserve it or because you're too little to fight back or to young to articulate refusal." ---or--- they may be doing it because it's how they were treated as a child, it's what they know, their perpetuating a "cycle of abuse" which is obviously consistent with the "Like father, like son." reasoning given by the majority of circumcising American parents.

Circumcision is abuse because it violates the body and rights of a non-consenting child. It's sexual abuse because it involves a little boy's primary sex organ. It's sexual abuse because it permanently disfigures, desensitizes, and removes standard sexual functionality (gliding mechanism) from the penis.

Jen


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anne1140* 
I definitely do think it is abuse, but I think it's different than, say, raping someone, because many parents who circ aren't doing it to specifically harm their kids.

I think rape happens because of perceived superiority/drive for power, extreme selfishness, a history of child sexual abuse, or other mental illness/sociopathy. Sure, some sexual sadists love to see people suffer but I don't think that's the motivating factor for the majority of rapes.

Just because a parent doesn't intend harm doesn't diminish the actual harm caused, just as the motivation of the rapist doesn't impact the degree of mental and emotional trauma and physical damage inflicted.

What makes something abuse? A person's rights being violated.

It doesn't matter why or whether the perpetrator has "good" intentions or feels otherwise justified.

Quote:

I'm going to make an analogy, and I know it's not exactly the same thing, but I think you'll get my point. I have two cats, and I got them both declawed without really looking into it, just assuming that's what you do. Well, my second cat had a really hard recovery, and I felt terrible for him. I decided from that point on that I would never declaw another cat again. It was a pointless and cosmetic surgery for my convenience. Was it abuse? I believe so. But it wasn't the same thing as kicking my cats or starving them, because I wasn't intentionally harming them, KWIM?
Again, the assumption is that people who mistreat animals mean to cause harm. Often neglect is just selfishness and not caring...it's done without thought, or someone kicks the cat and feels justified because the cat clawed the furniture or whatever. I don't think most people---even those who are clearly abusive---are typically acting out of malice. Does that make sense?

Jen


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

No.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 
I'm not sure I understand you- who is the one with the power in this situation- the parent, the doctor, ...?? I don't think parents are doing it for power reasons, I think they are simply uneducated and are believing what those in the medical profession tell them (that it is safe, healthy, necessary, etc.)

The person on the power trip is the parent. They're circumcising because they're the parent, it's legal, and you can't stop them. They're circumcising because they think they know best. They're circumcising because it was done to dad and he thinks he's just fine. They're circumcising him because he's too little to remember and will never know the difference. They're circumcising him because they think it looks better, because they perceive it as their "right"...just another choice like cloth or disposable, whether to use a pacifier or not, homemade baby food or jared.

Doctors are often doing it for financial reasons, because they believe it's a service they're expected to provide, because they actually enjoy performing them because they enjoy exercising their surgical skills; it's probably the only time an obgyn-specialist in female genital anatomy-gets to sink a scalpel into penis-flesh. Being proficient at a routine surgery is a boost to the ego and that's definitely power-related as well. I've read doctors brag about their artistry with regard to infant circumcisions.

Quote:

So, if I am to convince myself that RIC is sexual abuse, then imagine how that would change my life and my relationships. I now have to call my 13yo. godson and tell him, "I'm sorry kiddo, but you need to know that your mother and father sexually abused you as a baby. And BTW, you are not a complete person as a result." Why don't I just skip the birthday presents and send a check for therapy instead?!? Imagine the repercussions of throwing that term at mainstream society!
If you new a young girl who'd had a sexual relationship with a much older man she felt she was in love with, and it was a positive---although inappropriate/sexually abusive/statuatory rape situation---would you go out of your way to make her feel victimized if she didn't feel violated by the sexual relationship? Would you try to convince her that she'd been abused and was physically or psychologically damaged? No? Why would acknowledging circumcision as the sexual abuse that it is make you feel like you needed to rub your nephew's nose in it and make him feel badly about something that was done and over, something that was done to him when he was most vulnerable, something he can't change, probably ignorantly with good intentions?

Quote:

If you want to change the minds of hundreds of thousands of people, I would seriously recommend choosing some different words than sexual abuse. Rather than making people listen, you will put them on the defensive and they will immediately start tuning you out whenever you talk about it. Seriously- I think everyone out there knows at LEAST one person that has circumcised a child. Do you really think it's best to start hating those people and labeling them as sexual abusers? Is that really the best way to bring about change in our society???
I think all of us realize it's an accurate-but inflammatory-term and not necessarily the most effective phrase to use when we're doing activism and outreach with the public. This particular thread is on a board dedicated to intactivism...presumably we're all on the same team.

Also, I don't think anyone here is advocating hate. We're advocating honest acknowledgement of what circumcision is and the irreversible damage it causes. Most parents circumcise out of habit/cultural conformity, ignorance, and spousal coercion.

Jen


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## MelKnee (Dec 5, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
Sure it is sexual abuse....it is doing something to someones sexual organs without their consent. It is, at the core, about power...just like rape, etc.

Brief (true) story: when I had my first child a doctor swept my membranes without my consent (I though he was merely doing an internal). While I do not think he did it for sexual gratification - I still felt assaulted.

In the case of circ - it can affect later feelings and experiences of sexuality - it is robbing a child of his right to an intact sexual relationship...how is this not sexual assault???

Exactly! It doesn't matter the intent of the abuser. It is the experience of the abused that matters. How many times have we heard from child molesters that they were just expressing their love for the children? A doctor may not intend sexual abuse, but that is the result.


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## purplestraws (Sep 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngelBee* 
No.

Care to expand?

I think hearing varied opinions is a good thing.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pdx.mothernurture* 
The person on the power trip is the parent. They're circumcising because they're the parent, it's legal, and you can't stop them. They're circumcising because they think they know best. They're circumcising because it was done to dad and he thinks he's just fine. They're circumcising him because he's too little to remember and will never know the difference. They're circumcising him because they think it looks better, because they perceive it as their "right"...just another choice like cloth or disposable, whether to use a pacifier or not, homemade baby food or jared.

Does anyone out there think that there is just a slight possibility that parents are doing this because they honestly believe it is the healthiest option for their child?!? Not for a power trip, not because they "can", but only because they have been educated to believe that it will save their LO's from future medical problems. I was one of those people who believed the medical information until I got pregnant and started my own research. And even in some of the books I read while pregnant (published in the last 5 years), they were explaining the medical benefits of RIC! Now again, I'm not saying I agree with that- I'm just letting people know that there is still a lot of misinformation out there. A lot of opinions on this thread seem to think that parents are getting some sick, sadistic joy out of circing their children, and I just can't and won't believe that is the case.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pdx.mothernurture* 
If you new a young girl who'd had a sexual relationship with a much older man she felt she was in love with, and it was a positive---although inappropriate/sexually abusive/statuatory rape situation---would you go out of your way to make her feel victimized if she didn't feel violated by the sexual relationship? Would you try to convince her that she'd been abused and was physically or psychologically damaged? No? Why would acknowledging circumcision as the sexual abuse that it is make you feel like you needed to rub your nephew's nose in it and make him feel badly about something that was done and over, something that was done to him when he was most vulnerable, something he can't change, probably ignorantly with good intentions?

No, I absolutely would never do that. I was just trying to provoke some thought with that example. If there is sexual abuse happening, then there has to be an abuser and an abused (victim). How do we go after these abusers without the abused feeling like they were violated and are no longer a complete person?

Really my whole point throughout this debate is that there needs to be education regarding RIC, not name calling and witch hunting.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

If an abuser abuses out of ignorance and availability rather than malice or sociopathy, then the answer is education and criminalization. I'm sure some parents do circumcise based on pervasive cultural myths and misinformation. Again, I'm not suggesting the intent of most parents is to cause unnecessary pain and irreversible harm.

Just because they mean well though doesn't make the act any less abusive to the baby strapped spread-eagle to the rigid, molded plastic board having 1/2-2/3 of the skin on his penis crushed and excised and an internal, mucousal part of his penis, the glans, permanently exposed.

Just because those responsible aren't getting sexual gratification doesn't make circumcision any less invasive and *sexually* damaging than prematurely breaking a little girl's hymen or cutting off her labia or clitoral hood.

IMO, it absolutely *is* a sexual violation; it *is* sexual abuse.

Jen


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## thixle (Sep 26, 2007)

Jen, you are my hero







I aspire to be as well spoken/written as you on the emotional aspects of this topic









And, yep, some days, I just want to preach to the choir... makes me feel better, knowing I'm not alone









Quote:

I think all of us realize it's an accurate-but inflammatory-term and not necessarily the most effective phrase to use when we're doing activism and outreach with the public. This particular thread is on a board dedicated to intactivism...presumably we're all on the same team.

Also, I don't think anyone here is advocating hate. We're advocating honest acknowledgement of what circumcision is and the irreversible damage it causes. Most parents circumcise out of habit/cultural conformity, ignorance, and spousal coercion.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *purplestraws* 
I think it's just about having the courage to call it what it is.

Honestly, I don't think that ANYONE (well, hopefully...) has their son circumcised because they think they are sexually abusing him. We've just been so brainwashed to think that it's a acceptable and NECESSARY practice that the ability to look at circumcision for what it is...abuse...is nearly impossible for most people. However, refusing to recognize it as such just to avoid hurt feelings is not only wrong, but justifying the abuse of future boys.

It's really a catch 22. At a point where circumcision is still so widely accepted and encouraged...do you sugarcoat the awfulness that it is to avoid hurt feelings or do you stand up and advocate for those that are being abused while running the risk of offending the abusers?

If it were a little 2 year old girl being sexually assaulted by her uncle, would you say, "Yes, it was wrong. Her uncle just couldn't control himself, though. He already feels bad enough about it. Let's just tell him he was wrong...the little girl will get over it and be no worse for the wear. She was young enough she won't even remember it."

Brava! Brava! Brava! Excellent post!


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## Rosedotcom (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:

Does anyone out there think that there is just a slight possibility that parents are doing this because they honestly believe it is the healthiest option for their child?!? Not for a power trip, not because they "can", but only because they have been educated to believe that it will save their LO's from future medical problems.
Yes I do.

No I don't think it's physical & sexual abuse. My brothers are not circumcised, and the one that has children had both of his boys done. I don't know any male adult that feels violated by being circed. I don't understand when see people say they are going to get a lawyer for their nephew or family friend when they turn 18 to sue their parents. To me that is out of touch with reality.

I'm not going to get into my opinion. I come to this site because I agree with 90% of MDC's philosophies but it was made clear that they believe in not circing and my opinion doesn't belong here.

This is your safe place not a debate place, so I don't know why these threads pop up over & over.


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## Genesis (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
Yes I do.

No I don't think it's physical & sexual abuse. My brothers are not circumcised, and the one that has children had both of his boys done. I don't know any male adult that feels violated by being circed. I don't understand when see people say they are going to get a lawyer for their nephew or family friend when they turn 18 to sue their parents. To me that is out of touch with reality.

I'm not going to get into my opinion. I come to this site because I agree with 90% of MDC's philosophies but it was made clear that they believe in not circing and my opinion doesn't belong here.

This is your safe place not a debate place, so I don't know why these threads pop up over & over.

So, do you believe that circumcision is okay? Why is it okay to cut off parts of someone's genitals without their consent, especially a baby's?? Nothing you or anyone else could say could EVER justify this. Period. Why don't people understand that *NO ONE* has the right to mutilate a baby's genitals?? I just don't understand.


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## Rosedotcom (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:

Nothing you or anyone else could say could EVER justify this.
I know, that's why I don't understand these threads. Opinions aren't welcome so don't ask for any. Keep it a ranting thread.


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## Genesis (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
I know, that's why I don't understand these threads. Opinions aren't welcome so don't ask for any. Keep it a ranting thread.

You didn't answer my questions. Not that you are obligated to of course, but I'm just saying...

And it's not that opinions aren't welcome. But how can you justify something like MGM?


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## Rosedotcom (Apr 22, 2003)

Do you understand that this forum is not open to much discussion other than agreeing circ is bad? I can't get into my opinion. That is why I don't understand why we end up with these type of threads. This is a forum that says circ is wrong so no one else can say much so I usually stick the rest of MDC but once in a while I'll see a thread that baffles me.

ETA the reason I say opinions aren't welcome is that I have had a mod pull a thread before because this is a non circ site.


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 

Do you understand that this forum is not open to much discussion other than agreeing circ is bad?

She's right, pro can not be discussed here, because there are none! You might want to take this to PM?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
That is why I don't understand why we end up with these type of threads. This is a forum that says circ is wrong so no one else can say much so I usually stick the rest of MDC but once in a while I'll see a thread that baffles me.

These threads exist for a very simple reason...intactavists feel strongly about the horrors of baby mutilation for many different reasons. It's interesting to see those different reasons.

For me - My main reason for hating the practice of circumcision is the violation of human rights that it involves. I have 30,000 other reasons that I know it's a horror, but that is my number one reason.

For someone else, it might be the sexual assault aspect...for another, the female sexual ramifications, for another, the pain infliction.. and on and on.

It's always nice for those of us that truly understand the horror and are trying to stop it, to find not only solidarity, but different avenues of intactavism. These threads contribute understanding where we are all coming from in our outrage.

If you're not outraged by male genital mutilation...you're not paying attention!


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## SammyJr (Aug 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
Yes I do.

No I don't think it's physical & sexual abuse. My brothers are not circumcised, and the one that has children had both of his boys done. *I don't know any male adult that feels violated by being circed.* I don't understand when see people say they are going to get a lawyer for their nephew or family friend when they turn 18 to sue their parents. To me that is out of touch with reality.











You haven't looked very hard. I've posted in this thread about my disgust with my unwanted circumcision. There's this organization called NORM with tens of thousands of members - men who are attempting to reverse at least some of the damage caused by ignorant parents and greedy doctors. There are many vendors of foreskin restoration devices. The American circumcision rate doesn't go from 90%+ to 56% in a matter of 20 years without some men feeling violated.

But be happy in your own little world where all men are happy missing a part of their penis!


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## SammyJr (Aug 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
Do you understand that this forum is not open to much discussion other than agreeing circ is bad? I can't get into my opinion. That is why I don't understand why we end up with these type of threads. This is a forum that says circ is wrong so no one else can say much so I usually stick the rest of MDC but once in a while I'll see a thread that baffles me.

Maybe if your happy bits were on the chopping block along with mine, then we might be able to see eye to eye on this topic.

I'm glad pro-baby cutting discussion isn't allowed. Its good for ignorant "but everybody does it" types to see that everyone doesn't agree with them.


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## Rosedotcom (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:


You haven't looked very hard. I've posted in this thread about my disgust with my unwanted circumcision. There's this organization called NORM with tens of thousands of members -
I'm not discounting that, I'm talking about the small group of men I know of billions there are. It's anecdotal. So I don't need you to cuss at me.

Why do you think so many men circumcise their sons? Sure they can match, but they wouldn't do it if they see it as abuse or felt violated by their parents. Obviously there are men out their who do feel that way so they don't so that to their kids.

I can't justify it because many of you see it as abuse, so many other people don't.

Quote:

I'm glad pro-baby cutting discussion isn't allowed. Its good for ignorant "but everybody does it" types to see that everyone doesn't agree with them.
I have no problem with you disagreeing with me. You have a problem and are cursing and are throwing digs not discussing.

I'm just concerned about the rules and didn't want the thread to be pulled.

I do have a question. What about all the men who are circ'd are perfectly fine with it and think they will do that for their sons. Do they just not know they were abused or can they actually just be OK with what they have?


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
I do have a question. What about all the men who are circ'd are perfectly fine with it and think they will do that for their sons. Do they just not know they were abused or can they actually just be OK with what they have?

It's a sad fact that those poor men and most likely their partners really don't know what they are missing! Poor things! If they did...they would be horrified!


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
Yes I do.

Any body part can fail, any body part can have problems. Parents should not feel noble just because they're circumcising to prevent an easily treatable infection their son might get as an adult. Circumcision is unethical when there is absolutely no immediate medical reason to do so.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
No I don't think it's physical & sexual abuse. My brothers are not circumcised, and the one that has children had both of his boys done.


Your brother isn't the first intact man to get swept up in circumcision propaganda. It sounds like your brother is willing to have portion of his sons' penises cut off while at the same time keeping his own penis whole. If your brother thinks that circumcision is such a good idea he needs to have his own foreskin amputated in order to match his sons. Anything less is cowardly.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
I don't know any male adult that feels violated by being circed. I don't understand when see people say they are going to get a lawyer for their nephew or family friend when they turn 18 to sue their parents. To me that is out of touch with reality.

A. My husband has been restoring his foreskin for the past three years.
B. William Stowell

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
I'm not going to get into my opinion. I come to this site because I agree with 90% of MDC's philosophies but it was made clear that they believe in not circing and my opinion doesn't belong here.

If you think it's a good idea for a newborn to be strapped down while a part of his completely normal and healthy body is amputated then I suggest you do two things. One, practice your empathetic skills by putting yourself in that baby's place. How would you feel if part of your normal body was cut off at birth. Two, Let go of your preconceived notions of how much better off babies are by being circumcised and read the information on this forum.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
This is your safe place not a debate place, so I don't know why these threads pop up over & over.

Well, obviously we start them because they give us something to do.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
I have no problem with you disagreeing with me. You have a problem and are cursing and are throwing digs not discussing.


Don't talk to my husband like that







:. He didn't curse at you. He used an emoticon to express his anger at something you said.

You come on here, on our safe pro-circ free board, to offhandedly promote circ and then you act all shocked that a man who hates being circumcised took offense to your position. Well, big surprise there, eh? Look around, there are plenty of men on this site who hate being circumcised. Frankly Speaking, BM31, Dave2GA, Perspective, Sammy Jr., and I'm sure there are others.


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## Rosedotcom (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:

If your brother thinks that circumcision is such a good idea he needs to have his own foreskin amputated in order to match his sons. Anything less is cowardly.
He's too busy being a police office, on the narcotics team for his department, and the SWAT team to be a coward. Say what you want about me, but he is a wonderful father and no coward.


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## Rosedotcom (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:

Don't talk to my husband like that . He didn't curse at you. He used an emoticon to express his anger at something you said.
Calm down. I apologize. I don't know all the smilies so I put my mouse over it and it was the curse smile.

Quote:

You come on here, on our safe pro-circ free board, to offhandedly promote circ and then you act all shocked that a man who hates being circumcised took offense to your position. Well, big surprise there, eh? Look around, there are plenty of men on this site who hate being circumcised. Frankly Speaking, BM31, Dave2GA, Perspective, Sammy Jr., and I'm sure there are others.
That's fine. I said out of the small percentage of men I know out billions they didn't have a problem. Stop trying to turn everything around. You know 5 people that have a problem, I know that many and more that don't. We're even

I answered one question. Then I was told I didn't give my opinion. I made it clear we can't go in to this on this site but no one minds goading me into giving it so don't complain now.


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## SammyJr (Aug 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
Why do you think so many men circumcise their sons? Sure they can match, but they wouldn't do it if they see it as abuse or felt violated by their parents. Obviously there are men out their who do feel that way so they don't so that to their kids.

Like they say, ignorance is bliss. I didn't think circumcision was a violation until I learned about the anatomy of a normal penis and the flimsy justifications and exagerations used to sell the procedure to parents. I also started restoring and got a peak at what sex should feel like.

Quote:

I can't justify it because many of you see it as abuse, so many other people don't.
Let's compare apples to apples. Many women in the Middle East don't see a missing clitoris as an example of abuse. Since not everyone considers FGM abuse, do you also consider it not to be abuse?

And don't give me the "they're two different things" crap. I had a hunk of my junk cut off without anesthesia and so did they. Cutting a minor's private parts is cutting a minor's private parts.

Quote:

I have no problem with you disagreeing with me. You have a problem and are cursing and are throwing digs not discussing.
I take anyone who supports circumcision as a personal attack against me and all men. Offer up your genitals on a chopping block for some pervert doctor to do as he wishes and then maybe I'll respect your pro-cutting opinion on the subject a little more.

Quote:

I do have a question. What about all the men who are circ'd are perfectly fine with it and think they will do that for their sons. Do they just not know they were abused or can they actually just be OK with what they have?
Circumcised men can be happy with their state for all I care but its not right for them to make sexual decisions for their kids. There are a lot of women out there who love their clit piercings, but for some reason, they'd never consider a clit piercing for their little girls. Part of the problem is that people don't see circumcision as a sexual surgery, when it obviously involves the penis, a very sexual organ if there ever was one.

This is a sore subject for me and pro-circ or "parental choice" types rub me the wrong way.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
Opinions aren't welcome so don't ask for any. Keep it a ranting thread.

Wow- the OP has just made your point painfully clear for us. No opinions allowed!! Apparently by saying that you don't think RIC is sexual abuse, you are now _promoting_ RIC.







It's ok.. she'll just block you like she did me, so that she doesn't have to look at any posts that disagree with her opinion.

I'm sorry people, but I thought this was a discussion board. For discussions. And I understand that many of you feel VERY strongly about this topic, but come on! When you completely disregard everyone else's opinion that might be slightly different than yours (or even the same as yours, but not as strong) you are turning people away from a discussion that they just might learn from. Why should I listen to what you have to say if you won't listen to me as well? Maybe if you want more to join your camp, you can politely explain why you are there rather than insulting them.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
He's too busy being a police office, on the narcotics team for his department, and the SWAT team to be a coward. Say what you want about me, but he is a wonderful father and no coward. My point was not everyone sees it as abuse. You can't see that and I get that.

His being a police officer has nothing to do with his sons' penises. I still think he should have himself circumcised if he thinks it's so much better. If he's willing to deprive his sons of part of their normal penis then he needs to do the same for himself.

I feel sorry for any person who doesn't see that strapping down a human being, and cutting off part of their body is abuse. One day the fact that circumcision is a horrific human rights atrocity will be so obvious and well known that pro-circers will be too embarrassed to even share their opinion with others.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
You don't want opinions so I will bow out. You guys can go back to agreeing with each other. Just don't ask for them if you don't want to hear them.

You're the one leaving the conversation, not us. You're perfectly welcome to stick around, look through the stickies, and maybe try to actually learn something about this subject, instead of barreling in here out of nowhere, insulting people, and excusing circumcision.


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## Fellow Traveler (Jan 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
I do have a question. What about all the men who are circ'd are perfectly fine with it and think they will do that for their sons. Do they just not know they were abused or can they actually just be OK with what they have?

Hopefully you haven't headed for the hills yet because I have a question. A while back there was this interesting article one of the better quotes (regarding FGM) out of that piece was:

Quote:

There is not one person here not circumcised, and it will continue", a 16-year-old secondary school Egyptian girl student commented. "No one can get married without it," said another one.
And this interesting video on youtube. The link goes to the comments so don't worry you won't have to watch the video but the comments make for an interesting read one of the better ones:

Quote:

It's fine really. I am a woman who have undergone the procedure. My clitoris is intact and I am able to achive many many orgasms! Haha.

In Brunei the procedure is done with sterilised equipment by very experienced people with minimal discomfort on the baby. So it is not sick or gross or whatever. It is perfectly safe.
And this more recent one from, and this actually surprised me (or perhaps not), an American:

Quote:

I don't think they really did anything to the baby...the baby looks comfortable at all time and not in pain...the baby would be crying and squirming if anything had been done to her
So it seems there are plenty of satisfied customers in Egypt and Brunei, perhaps other places. So does this mean we should not oppose FGM?

I am also courious as to whether you believe that circumcision is medically therapeutic? I am courious because most people who are not against circumcision either believe there is a therapeutic justification or cultural reasons are sufficient, the latter including the "its just right for our family" people.

When it comes to the latter set I have to wonder if they would be equally supportive of branding an infant or nipping off the earlobes. Presuming it was needed to satisfy the parent's cultural practices or beliefs. As a practical matter I could argue that those two acts would be less harmful than circumcision. But something tells me if the neighbors found out their expat neighbor branded their infant, CPF would be there pretty quickly. Thoughts?








:


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## Rosedotcom (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:

and maybe try to actually learn something about this subject, instead of barreling in here out of nowhere, insulting people, and excusing circumcision.
Don't talk to me like that.







: I've been here since 2003 and read many of these threads even if I don't post. You're insulting people because they disagree with you.

BTW you catch more flies with honey when you're trying to get people to "learn".

jwhspers- I will check that out.

changingseasons - How does that ignore feature work? Or are you just on it? LOL.


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## SammyJr (Aug 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *changingseasons* 

I'm sorry people, but I thought this was a discussion board.

It is a discussion board, but its not designated for a debate on whether RIC is good or bad. Its a discussion board for people interested in how to sway the opinions of spouses, friends, family. Its a discussion board for people interested in avoiding the manipulation of shady doctors. Its a discussion board for people who want to know how to properly care for their intact son since the medical community doesn't know how and the rest of the family cuts babies. Its the Case Against Circumcision and all topics must fall under that general category.

Its fine for people to come in ignorant but wanting to learn, but people who come in with their mind made up as pro-cutters can expect a less that cheerful welcome.


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
I'm not going to get into my opinion. I come to this site because I agree with 90% of MDC's philosophies but it was made clear that they believe in not circing and my opinion doesn't belong here.











Let's see if I can paraphrase.

I'm not going to get into my opinion. But let me just make it really clear that I'm completely and totally pro-circ.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
Yes, I can excuse circumcision so I guess I have to barrel out of here.

Pro-circumcision views are not welcome on here so....

GOOD BYE!


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## SammyJr (Aug 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
Don't talk to me like that.







: I've been here since 2003 and read many of these threads even if I don't post. You're insulting people because they disagree with you, I am not. Yes, I can excuse circumcision so I guess I have to barrel out of here. That doesn't mean I have read up or learned anything in my 30 years.

Since you're still pro-circ, you obviously haven't learned much on the subject.

Quote:

BTW you catch more flies with honey when you're trying to get people to "learn".
Obviously, but we can tell when people aren't interested in learning and are here just to stir the pot.


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## Fellow Traveler (Jan 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
jwhspers- I will check that out.

changingseasons - How does that ignore feature work? Or are you just on it? LOL.

If you have the inclination please address the other questions too. If you want to you can take it to PM.


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## Rosedotcom (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:

Pro-circumcision views are not welcome on here so....
Yes I said that 5 times and people kept asking me more questions. Go back and read why I didn't want to respond

Quote:

Since you're still pro-circ, you obviously haven't learned much on the subject.
You can call me that but I am pro either. When I have a son, my mind hasn't been made up. I do know I won't get my info from people who wouldn't be my friend if I went the other way.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
Don't talk to me like that.







: I've been here since 2003 and read many of these threads even if I don't post. You're insulting people because they disagree with you, I am not. Yes, I can excuse circumcision so I guess I have to barrel out of here. That doesn't mean I have read up or learned anything in my 30 years.

BTW you catch more flies with honey when you're trying to get people to "learn".

jwhspers- I will check that out.

changingseasons - How does that ignore feature work? Or are you just on it? LOL.

Go to user CP
Scroll down to Miscellaneous
Click on Buddy/Ignore Lists
Type my user name into the little box. Viola. Have fun.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
changingseasons - How does that ignore feature work? Or are you just on it? LOL.

If you go into someone's profile, there an option up near the top of the page to ignore them. I just found out about it after OP posted that she was blocking me.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SammyJr* 
Its fine for people to come in ignorant but wanting to learn, but people who come in with their mind made up as pro-cutters can expect a less that cheerful welcome.

Maybe I missed that post... I don't remember reading any posts that were promoting RIC. Just because someone doesn't agree that it's sexual abuse, doesn't mean they are promoting RIC.

Really- what was the point of making this a poll? So that you (not you specifically, many on this thread) could find "those people" out and insult and attack them? You asked people for their opinion about a question, but don't want to hear from anyone except those you agree that "yes, RIC is sexual abuse."

And OP- COME ON. _"Don't talk to my husband like that"?_ Grow up.

I really was interested in this discussion in the beginning because I wanted to hear all sides of the story, but now I am completely turned off by all the hatred and anger in these posts. I am now officially resigning from the anti-circ campaign.


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
Yes I said that 5 times and people kept asking me more questions. .Go back and read why I didn't want to respond

Don't kids yourself, everyone loves a good drama thread.

Unfortunately, you're probably going to get exactly what you were hoping for.

You will have successfully stirred the pot just enough to make sure that the thread will be pulled.

But no matter. We're still here, and we still have the ability to post that circumcision is a vile human right's violation.

And you still don't have the ability, in this forum, to post your dissenting opinion.


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## Rosedotcom (Apr 22, 2003)

Posts edited so not to get the thread pulled.

All I meant to do was answer poll. The OP is calling people out to explain their answer if it's not yes. Maybe she should stop.


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## Fellow Traveler (Jan 8, 2008)

Here is another interesting thought for the crowd. Now the truth is, I hadn't heard circumcision described as sexual abuse before. I hadn't really thought about it quite like that. Did I think it was abuse, yes. What kind of abuse hadn't really crossed my mind. However, I do want to point out that Dr. Margaret Somerville has described circumcision as aggravated criminal assault. Now based on what I understand the definition to be, and on her explanation in the letters she wrote, I can't see how it is not a crime. Perhaps it is not sexual abuse but aggravated assault. Thoughts? Of course I am more interested in hearing form RoseDotCom and Changing Seasons (Who can answer via PM if it suits them) but of course all are welcomed.








:


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## SammyJr (Aug 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
You can call me that but I am pro either. When I have a son, my mind hasn't been made up. I do know I won't get my info from people who wouldn't be my friend if I went the other way.

Don't listen to me, fine, but do your son a favor then and do some real research then. When some OB starts throwing out UTIs and penile cancer and all the usual stuff, find out what the stats actually are and what the various organizations actually say and then wonder why he's so anxious to fondle and cut your baby boy's private parts.

After you've done that, imagine that your son is as angry as I am about it and what that would do to your relationship with him if you were to cut him. Keep in mind that he will have access to any and all information one could want on the subject and he will know that you had access to much of the same information. Its not like my parents' generation which had no Internet and Doctor was God. (This fact is the one that allows me to maintain a relationship with my parents. If they had known better and still done it, they'd have never met their grandkids.) Keep in mind that at least half his peers will be intact and he'll know that they have no problems with health, cleanliness, or the ladies. This is a bad time to be cutting your kids. They'll know better.


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
I would be happy to edit my posts so you can keep your hate fest going. All I did was respond to a couple questions and I got attacked if that is what people prefer. All I meant to do was answer poll. The OP is calling people out to explain their answer if it's not yes. Maybe she should stop.

hate fest.







:

And no, your very first post in this thread was the *very* thinly-veiled pro-circ statement. You did not just innocently "respond to a couple of questions".


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## Rosedotcom (Apr 22, 2003)

Well I have already said I don't think it's sexual abuse. I have been in a physically abusive relationship and I just can't compare the two. I just can't see it as abuse given that I have suffer real physical abuse. I would be interested in someone else's opinion who has been abused. They could feel free to PM me.

AT best I could see it as cosmetic procedure but some people get it done for religious reasons, or because they feel it's medically necessary. Everyone has different "facts".


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

OK now, see, that's a real post. I disagree, but I thank you for stating your opinion in that manner.


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## Rosedotcom (Apr 22, 2003)

.


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## changingseasons (Mar 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jwhispers* 
Here is another interesting thought for the crowd. Now the truth is, I hadn't heard circumcision described as sexual abuse before. I hadn't really thought about it quite like that. Did I think it was abuse, yes. What kind of abuse hadn't really crossed my mind. However, I do want to point out that Dr. Margaret Somerville has described circumcision as aggravated criminal assault. Now based on what I understand the definition to be, and on her explanation in the letters she wrote, I can't see how it is not a crime. Perhaps it is not sexual abuse but aggravated assault. Thoughts? Of course I am more interested in hearing form RoseDotCom and Changing Seasons (Who can answer via PM if it suits them) but of course all are welcomed.








:

I hadn't heard it described that way either- that's why the thread caught my attention.

If I had to pick a label, I would go with genital mutilation. That's what it's called when it's done to girls, right?


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
It was a simple question. I can edit my posts if you like.

ETA You don't how rude your posts are because you're allowed to post your opinion. That doesn't mean you can say whatever you want.

You certainly don't have to edit your posts to my own personal liking. That would make for a very interesting UA, though.

And I'm sorry, but you lost me with what you added. Are you saying I've been rude to you? If so, again, I disagree. I actually feel you've been treated fairly well considering you came in stating right off the bat that you knew you were skirting on violating the UA.


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## SammyJr (Aug 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
Well I have already said I don't think it's sexual abuse. I have been in a physically abusive relationship and I just can't compare the two. I just can't see it as abuse given that I have suffer real physical abuse. I would be interested in someone else's opinion who has been abused. They could feel free to PM me.

AT best I could see it as cosmetic procedure but some people get it done for religious reasons, or because they feel it's medically necessary. Everyone has different "facts".

Imagine if someone forced you to get a designer vagina or breast implants. I didn't choose to get circumcised, it wasn't medically necessary, and my parents are Christian.


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## Rosedotcom (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:

I didn't choose to get circumcised, it wasn't medically necessary, and my parents are Christian.
Well I don't know how much being Christian has to do with it. It kind of encompasses a lot religions. My EXH was a Christian and everyone in his family is circed with no problems or complaints. They are lutheran. I don't think it makes them bad people or your family bad. Have you talked to them about it? My X would think I was nuts if I told he shouldn't have been circed.

I don't know how old you are, but I'm talking about a family that had info from 30 years ago. We do a lot of different things know.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
Well I have already said I don't think it's sexual abuse. I have been in a physically abusive relationship and I just can't compare the two. I just can't see it as abuse given that I have suffer real physical abuse. I would be interested in someone else's opinion who has been abused. They could feel free to PM me.

AT best I could see it as cosmetic procedure but some people get it done for religious reasons, or because they feel it's medically necessary. Everyone has different "facts".


I'm sorry you were in an abusive relationship. No one should have to go through that. But honestly, I would think that going through your own abuse would open your eyes to how horrible infant circumcision is. How can you honestly say that it's okay for a human being to be strapped down while part of his body is cut, clamped, and crushed away?

Look at these pictures. This is what is done to baby boys every day in the US. Do you think this is right? Can you justify this? These boys are losing part of their body.

This is the very beginning of a Gomco clamp circumcision. For the record, this is what happened to my barely 6 pound nephew.

http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/images/gomco1.gif

Look closely at this photo. Do you see how much tissue is being cut away? Pretty substantial, given the size of the infant's penis.

http://www.infocirc.org/gomco2.jpg

Here's a Gomco Clamp in action. How can anyone look at that, knowing it's not medically necessary, and still excuse circumcision? Do you see the newborn's blood all over the doctor's gloves? That's the *baby's blood*.

http://www.infocirc.org/gomco3.jpg

http://www.infocirc.org/gomco4.jpg

http://www.infocirc.org/gomco5.jpg

And the final result, with this poor, innocent newborn boy left with a bloody stump where his sensitive and functional foreskin should be. Now, once again I ask you, how can you justify this? How can you say that it is okay for a human being to go through this, based on the whim of another person. There was nothing wrong with this baby's penis. Nothing at all.

http://www.infocirc.org/gomco6.jpg

Once again I say, circumcision is horrific sexual abuse.


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
Well I have already said I don't think it's sexual abuse. I have been in a physically abusive relationship and I just can't compare the two. I just can't see it as abuse given that I have suffer real physical abuse. I would be interested in someone else's opinion who has been abused. They could feel free to PM me.

AT best I could see it as cosmetic procedure but some people get it done for religious reasons, or because they feel it's medically necessary. Everyone has different "facts".

Hi Rosedotcom









Welcome to CAC!









Please think about this very carefully.

Imagine someone bigger and stronger than you. He is taking your close off. You're naked. Then this stranger straps you down to a board with your legs spread apart then he ties down so you cannot move.

Try really hard to picture this.

Then your arms are spread apart. He ties them down too. You're protesting for him to stop. He doesn't stop.

This stranger takes a blunt probe and inserts it under your finger nail and separates each one from the fingers then he peels them off the finger. Yes, the finger nails because an infants foreskin is bonded to the glans like the finger nail is to the finger. Its designed to protect the meatus (pee hole) from urine and feces.

Next, he places a jaw like clamp to your clitoris, retracts your clitoral hood, replaces the hood over the instrument and then he clamps the instrument shut. Waits, for about 20 minutes because the tissue has to rot off before he can actually cut away your foreskin.

You're in agony. You thrash and buck down on the board that you're strapped down to. You're screaming to be let go but the man doesn't understand you. You're screaming so hard that you choke on your own vomit.

In the mean time, this stranger cauterizes your labia minora while saying "Ahh thats going to look so nice and pretty now." You go into complete shock.

He makes the final cut to amputate what was once a very healthy functional sexual organ, your foreskin. Then you pass out.

All for what? It was completely unnecessary. You _might_ have a lower chance of labial adhesions or decrease the severity of a yeast infection, and limit your chances of bacterial overgrowth, you'll be aesthetically pleasing to those who have a fetish for a reduced genitalia and you could last longer in bed because well, with your calloused unprotected clitoris, you won't be as sensitive.

Was it worth it? Even if you don't remember it you'll have the scars to remind you of your sexual violation for the rest of your life.

Its violating another persons sex organs. So, yes its sexual abuse. The perpetrator is the Circumciser (or dya for FGM) who know better than to amputate normal healthy body parts on a non-consenting person. They really do know its wrong. Its covered in medical school. This criminal is getting 'off' on his evil deeds because he gets a reward every time he preforms a circumcision. He/she gets paid and thats fuel for this fire.

Just so you know, the skin of an Infant is super hyper-sensitive. They can feel pain far greater than adults.


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## Frootloop (Aug 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fruitful womb* 
Hi Rosedotcom









Welcome to CAC!









Please think about this very carefully.

Imagine someone bigger and stronger than you. He is taking your close off. You're naked. Then this stranger straps you down to a board with your legs spread apart then he ties down so you cannot move.

Try really hard to picture this.

Then your arms are spread apart. He ties them down too. You're protesting for him to stop. He doesn't stop.

This stranger takes a blunt probe and inserts it under your finger nail and separates each one from the fingers then he peels them off the finger. Yes, the finger nails because an infants foreskin is bonded to the glans like the finger nail is to the finger. Its designed to protect the meatus (pee hole) from urine and feces.

Next, he places a jaw like clamp to your clitoris, retracts your clitoral hood, replaces the hood over the instrument and then he clamps the instrument shut. Waits, for about 20 minutes because the tissue has to rot off before he can actually cut away your foreskin.

You're in agony. You thrash and buck down on the board that you're strapped down to. You're screaming to be let go but the man doesn't understand you. You're screaming so hard that you choke on your own vomit.

In the mean time, this stranger cauterizes your labia minora while saying "Ahh thats going to look so nice and pretty now." You go into complete shock.

He makes the final cut to amputate what was once a very healthy functional sexual organ, your foreskin. Then you pass out.

All for what? It was completely unnecessary. You _might_ have a lower chance of labial adhesions or decrease the severity of a yeast infection, and limit your chances of bacterial overgrowth, you'll be aesthetically pleasing to those who have a fetish for a reduced genitalia and you could last longer in bed because well, with your calloused unprotected clitoris, you won't be as sensitive.

Was it worth it? Even if you don't remember it you'll have the scars to remind you of your sexual violation for the rest of your life.

Its violating another persons sex organs. So, yes its sexual abuse. The perpetrator is the Circumciser (or dya for FGM) who know better than to amputate normal healthy body parts on a non-consenting person. They really do know its wrong. Its covered in medical school. This criminal is getting 'off' on his evil deeds because he gets a reward every time he preforms a circumcision. He/she gets paid and thats fuel for this fire.

Just so you know, the skin of an Infant is super hyper-sensitive. They can feel pain far greater than adults.

As someone who *HAS* been sexually abused and forcefully raped, envisioning this in my head just made my heart race and face turn red with anger and fear. I'm actually shaking and feel sick to my stomach here.

It's absolutely sexual abuse. Period.
It doesn't matter what reasonings the parents are allowing it to be done for. It's still a sexual assault.


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## bluetoes (May 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Frootloop* 

It's absolutely sexual abuse. Period.
It doesn't matter what reasonings the parents are allowing it to be done for. It's still a sexual assault.


I change my vote. Regardless of the intentions, it is sexual abuse because it's doing something that harms the sexual organs.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Rosedotcom, I've been both physically and sexually abused and thats one of the reasons I know circumcision is sexual abuse. I can empathize with those baby boys being strapped down and spread eagle while someone manipulates and hurts their genitals.







If that's not sexual abuse then I guess what happened to me isn't either.

You can add my dh and several other men we know to the list of men who feel they were violated.


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LavenderMae* 
Rosedotcom, I've been both physically and sexually abused and thats one of the reasons I know circumcision is sexual abuse. I can empathize with those baby boys being strapped down and spread eagle while someone manipulates and hurts their genitals.







If that's not sexual abuse then I guess what happened to me isn't either.

You can add my dh and several other men we know to the list of men who feel they were violated.









Another victim of sexual assault here as well. I'm in the unique position that both of the assaults perpetrated on my were by medical professionals. The first time was on going by a pediatric urologist. This was ongoing over a period of 2-3 years. I was held down and things were inserted into my body. This was all done with no medical reason. The second time was while I was giving birth to my DD. (read birth story below for details - the gist was that I was again held down while screaming NOOOOO and fighting while things were again inserted into my body - at least I was able to protest that time though...the DA was willing to press sexual assault charges against the midwife in that case)

So, from my unique position, I can say without a doubt that this is indeed a sexual assault...these poor babies are tied down and tortured with instruments and are unable to protest. The difference? I was only left with emotional scars...these poor babies are left with a physical reminder and diminished sexual sensation for their abuse.


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## Rosedotcom (Apr 22, 2003)

Lavender & Fyre I am so sorry for the abuse you suffered.


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## Frootloop (Aug 10, 2007)

I'm wondering something. For those of you who don't see it as sexual abuse, are you feeling this way just because the circumcisions are not being performed (not typically, at least) by someone who is getting some sort of sexual gratification from it? If so, I really think you're looking at it wrong.

In my opinion.. just because it's *not* being done to satisfy a sexual urge, it *DOES NOT mean it's not a sexual assualt!!!* Even though at this point in the baby's life he knows nothing about sexual desires, he's still having a functioning part of his penis removed. His sex life is altered forever, whether he later realizes it or not.

Seriously now.. the babies are being strapped down against their will. Their primary SEX ORGANS are being manipulated for reasons that are utter freakin' BS.. they're having probes inserted and being cut into with knives.. for bogus medical reasons.. or "to look like daddy".. or because the parents think the "uncircumcised" penises are "ugly" or "gross".. or they think their poor little boy will never get a girlfriend.. I'm sorry, but HELLO?!?!?!?! How is that not sexual assault?

Whether a parent has researched circumcision or not.. whether they're doing it for "medical reasons" or not.. whether they just want junior to have a "normal looking penis".. it doesn't matter. It still doesn't make it anything other than abuse. They're still strapping or restraining an infant to cut into and alter their genitals *WITHOUT THEIR PERMISSION.* They're doing something the child would almost positively *NOT* want done to their genitals. That's just one of many types of sexual abuse.

As much as it kills me to admit it, my son was circumcised. And yes, I feel that he was sexually abused. Even though I don't recall giving my permission for it to be done, I honestly can't say that I wouldn't have done it. I was ignorant at the time..

Again.. I *WAS* sexually abused and raped and I still view it to be almost the same. The only difference I see is that I KNEW what my sex organs are for, but the baby boys do not.


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## Rosedotcom (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:

They're doing something the child would almost positively NOT want done to their genitals. That's just one of many types of sexual abuse.
How many adult circ'd men think that they have been abused? Sexual or physical? Is there some kind of study? Because we've seen in this thread we all have our anecdotes.


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## Bm31 (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
How many adult circ'd men think that they have been abused? Sexual or physical? Is there some kind of study? Because we've seen in this thread we all have our anecdotes.

Does it really matter _how_ many?? I don't care how many men you think you know irl that are FINE with it.....I know quite a few myself. For one thing, they wouldn't dare complain because what's done is done so they have to defend it. What they are is lucky, really. I had two botched circ's I didn't ask for as an infant/child that I didn't have the guts to acknowledge until I was 35 years old. Why? Because I didn't want to be belittled by attitudes like your's. I still don't go around advertising it very openly to just anyone, but I'll discuss/debate circ with anyone. Most cut guys don't lose a lot of sleep over it (what's the point, it's done!), but every one of them with half a brain has an innate understanding that something about circ just doesn't make a lot of sense on so many levels. I could care less about myself; I've had no choice but to learn to live with what was done. That's fine that I can be written off as acceptable collateral damage by pro-circ's. However, if it happens (and it will) to even ONE more child...that is one child too many.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

It is absolutely sexual abuse.

(My boys are both circed in the intrests of honesty and full disclosure.)


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## Frootloop (Aug 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
*How many adult circ'd men think that they have been abused?* Sexual or physical? Is there some kind of study? Because we've seen in this thread we all have our anecdotes.

_*bolding mine*_
Uhhhhhh, the majority of the men who have researched it and have been able to see through the BS that the much of the medical profession continues to spout off. The ones who see RIC for what it really is.. _completely unnecessary_.
To put it bluntly, they're pretty pissed, and rightly so.

I have no idea if there has been specific studies done or not. I know this from hearing/reading replies from men in forums such as these..

I would be a bit surprised if there *was* a study done.. Unfortunately, many men who speak out that they hate the fact that they were circumcised are looked down upon and considered *off* in the head as it is!








Because of that, they would very likely be a bit hesitant to admit that they feel that they were sexually abused. They should *NOT* have to feel that way!!!!


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Many circumcised women also don't feel they were abused. Does that change how you view FGM? Does that change the actual act? Do you think strong cultural conditioning plays a part in why the women don't feel FGM is abuse, could it be the same for men in the US?

I get why many for the most part uninformed (about circumcision) men think MGM isn't abuse and they defend it and are even happy it was done to them. I understand denial and social norms. But I am more concerned with whether or not the act of forcefully, painfully and sexually altering a baby's genitalia is abuse and I think with societal/cultural blinders off the answer is a clear and obvious YES.


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## SammyJr (Aug 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
Well I don't know how much being Christian has to do with it. It kind of encompasses a lot religions. My EXH was a Christian and everyone in his family is circed with no problems or complaints. They are lutheran. I don't think it makes them bad people or your family bad. Have you talked to them about it? don't know how old you are, but I'm talking about a family that had info from 30 years ago. We do a lot of different things know

Some religions have a general requirement for circumcision. Christianity is not one of them, judging by the scriptures and hundreds of millions of intact men in Europe and South America. My point was that my parents' forcing of circumcision on me was not of the religious variety or required at all.

Yes, I have brought it up and they pled ignorance although my father can't see what the big deal is. Typical ego response from a guy who doesn't want to know any better. Like you, this was info (or lack thereof) from 30 years ago. This is why I can forgive. If this was 30 years from now, I wouldn't be anywhere near as forgiving because a quick read of any official medical websites (American Cancer Society, AAP, any of the European or Canadian Pediatrics organizations, etc.) would tell you that your Ped/OB is greatly exagerating or imagining any benefit from circumcision - and common sense will tell you that babies aren't getting STDs.

Quote:

My X would think I was nuts if I told he shouldn't have been circed.
Its a very hard thing to tell a man that his genitals are not 100% as they should be. Its a huge blow to the ego. Fortunately, a lot of men are realizing that it isn't a big deal if their sons keep all their parts. I consider my son to be lucky.


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## SammyJr (Aug 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
How many adult circ'd men think that they have been abused? Sexual or physical? Is there some kind of study? Because we've seen in this thread we all have our anecdotes.

The issue is one of consent.

Some women (and men) get off on rape fantasies. When they play out their fantasy, are they abused? No, of course not. Same thing with an adult circumcision. The man makes his choice. Its done. His life, his penis, his choice.

Not so with the woman being stalked in a parking garage or a newborn baby strapped to a board.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rosedotcom* 
How many adult circ'd men think that they have been abused? Sexual or physical? Is there some kind of study? Because we've seen in this thread we all have our anecdotes.


My Ds, when he was 11, heard about circumscision for the first time (he is intact). He was aghast - and wonderred why anyone would do such a "crazy thing".

So when someone who is not indoctrinated in the cultural norm of circ'ing comes up against it - they are horrified. That is what I have seen.

I think the reason some men do not consider it abuse is because:

a) they do not remeber it. I am sure if this happened to them at 14 they would darn well considr it abuse!!!

b) they do not want to consider it abuse - and done by those who they love and love them. It is too painful. I think what Sammy JR said was spot on.

Kathy


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## tennisdude23 (Apr 2, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SammyJr* 
The issue is one of consent.

Some women (and men) get off on rape fantasies. When they play out their fantasy, are they abused? No, of course not. Same thing with an adult circumcision. The man makes his choice. Its done. His life, his penis, his choice.

Not so with the woman being stalked in a parking garage or a newborn baby strapped to a board.

Exactly, I think that people too often overlook the whole consent business. It's the owner's penis; it's his choice. I think that's very obvious, given the surgery is absolutely pointless and causes more problems than solves them. Not to mention, the skin is very important for sexual pleasure. Whether it's abuse, you know, I think that will be for each individual to decide for themselves. I myself hold no opinion on that because i do feel that there are parents who do some of these things in the best interest of the child. Yes, their decision is bad; but not necessarily abuse; abuse is a very grey area. So, I do understand why some people may hold either opinion. In any case, when I approach the issue, I feel I need to do it from a light hearted position. I don't want to start screaming abuse because a lot of people would think i was nuts. Instead, I think's its best to start from the hard facts and then tackle to the emotional side of the issue.

Ahhhmmm, to the poster who was questioning the whole circ. think. Most people have about 0% knowledge about circ; and so, they do whatever they know. As the saying goes, ignorance is bliss. So, a lot of people in the US circ because they never bother to look into it; and most don't corrolate their sexual problems with circ. either. However, if you just do lazy research, you will find not only a link, but also realize how ridiculous and pointless circ. really is. I am surprised your brother had that done to his kids, given he has a foreskin. I mean, that just sounds extremely weird to me. I don't understand why anyone would want to do that to their kids but not to themselves. I love my foreskin; and I knew from my early teens the fun that I could have with it (sorry for TMI). I would never want to cut it off or deprive my kids of it. So, I am clueless from where your brother was coming from with his decision.


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## blsilva (Jul 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fruitful womb* 
Imagine someone bigger and stronger than you. He is taking your close off. You're naked. Then this stranger straps you down to a board with your legs spread apart then he ties down so you cannot move.

Try really hard to picture this.

Then your arms are spread apart. He ties them down too. You're protesting for him to stop. He doesn't stop.

This stranger takes a blunt probe and inserts it under your finger nail and separates each one from the fingers then he peels them off the finger. Yes, the finger nails because an infants foreskin is bonded to the glans like the finger nail is to the finger. Its designed to protect the meatus (pee hole) from urine and feces.

Next, he places a jaw like clamp to your clitoris, retracts your clitoral hood, replaces the hood over the instrument and then he clamps the instrument shut. Waits, for about 20 minutes because the tissue has to rot off before he can actually cut away your foreskin.

You're in agony. You thrash and buck down on the board that you're strapped down to. You're screaming to be let go but the man doesn't understand you. You're screaming so hard that you choke on your own vomit.

In the mean time, this stranger cauterizes your labia minora while saying "Ahh thats going to look so nice and pretty now." You go into complete shock.

He makes the final cut to amputate what was once a very healthy functional sexual organ, your foreskin. Then you pass out.

All for what? It was completely unnecessary. You _might_ have a lower chance of labial adhesions or decrease the severity of a yeast infection, and limit your chances of bacterial overgrowth, you'll be aesthetically pleasing to those who have a fetish for a reduced genitalia and you could last longer in bed because well, with your calloused unprotected clitoris, you won't be as sensitive.

Was it worth it? Even if you don't remember it you'll have the scars to remind you of your sexual violation for the rest of your life.

Its violating another persons sex organs. So, yes its sexual abuse. The perpetrator is the Circumciser (or dya for FGM) who know better than to amputate normal healthy body parts on a non-consenting person. They really do know its wrong. Its covered in medical school. This criminal is getting 'off' on his evil deeds because he gets a reward every time he preforms a circumcision. He/she gets paid and thats fuel for this fire.

Just so you know, the skin of an Infant is super hyper-sensitive. They can feel pain far greater than adults.

Absolutely

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kathymuggle* 
I think the reason some men do not consider it abuse is because:

a) they do not remeber it. I am sure if this happened to them at 14 they would darn well considr it abuse!!!

b) they do not want to consider it abuse - and done by those who they love and love them. It is too painful. I think what Sammy JR said was spot on.

ITA with this.

I have read of cases where an infant was sexually abused. It was obviously illegal and considered even more heinous because the child was so young, even thought the child would obviously not remember it as an adult.

So the fact that many men who are circumcised do not think they were abused is really not valid. As babies, they screamed for it to stop. That makes it abuse.


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

....and i want to be clear. When I said some men may not consider it abuse because they do not remeber it....that is not a justification!!! It may be part of the rationalisation parents and circ people tell themselves to make it OK...But it is not ok for so, so many reasons









Rosedotcom - I do think if your brother circs his son, but is unwilling to have himself circ-ed he should ask himself why. Please note I am *not* saying your brother is a bad man - but I think with such decisions, if you are not willing to do it to yourself - you need to ask yourself why?

I also (gently) wonder why you are here? Are you just trying to stir the pot? Or is there something you are trying to work your head around with circumscision ? Because if you were genuinely 100% pro-circ - you would not be here. I know this is an anti-circ board, but if you had concerns - I would try to answer them or give a POV to the best of my ability (within the bounds of the UA and without thread jacking, of course









Kathy

Kathy


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Question for those who don't consider it sexual abuse:

Change the gender.

When a infant, toddler, or adolescent girl is restrained by family members, legs held apart, and has her sex organs surgically altered, while she's conscious, screaming, trying to get away is what's happening to her---the loss of healthy, normal, functional, erogenously sensitive tissue---an abuse of her body, rights, and sexuality?

Does whether it's sexual abuse depend on whether the (usually female) family members restraining her and witnessing the event, or the lay person/midwife doing the cutting were getting wet or having orgasms...or is the violation, suffering, and damage enough?

Why is it so hard to call an apple an apple?

Jen


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## Genesis (Jan 8, 2007)

pdx., thank you for all of your posts.









I get upset by all of this, and it's hard to articulate what I need to say sometimes.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Genesis* 
pdx., thank you for all of your posts.









I get upset by all of this, and it's hard to articulate what I need to say sometimes.

You're welcome, and I can certainly empathize with your frustration. It seems so blatantly, tragically obvious doesn't it?









Jen


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## Genesis (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pdx.mothernurture* 
You're welcome, and I can certainly empathize with your frustration. It seems so blatantly, tragically obvious doesn't it?









Jen

Yes!


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

15% of people have voted even if it were illegal they still wouldn't see it as abusive. What a shame that some can't see the obvious. Is it lack of knowledge about the normal male anatomy? Lack of empathy and compassion for the baby boy? Is the cultural conditioning just too strong to see past? Is it denial because your son/s are circumcised and the truth is too painful? Is it because your partner is circumcised and you just can't view him as being abused or lacking? Is it because your mother and father had your brother/s circumcised and you can't see them as doing something abusive? Can you not look at the act seperate from the ones doing it?

Yes, I'm having a hard time understanding why rational (I'm assuming the 15% are rational people) people could not see that removing a healthy and functional part of a baby's genitals in a very painful and unnecessary way is not abuse. if your changed the body part to a toe I'm sure 100% here would call it abuse. Change it to any other body part beside the foreskin and it would be considered abuse. Change the infant to a girl and it would be considered abuse.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Part of the problem is my fault, I should have chosen the poll option to make votes public. I'm sure at least some of that 15% are the pro-circ lurkers who sit on this website.


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## bluetoes (May 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AntoninBeGonin* 
Part of the problem is my fault, I should have chosen the poll option to make votes public. I'm sure at least some of that 15% are the pro-circ lurkers who sit on this website.


And perhaps some who see it as a tradition and those who use cultural relatavism as an excuse to allow barbaric traditions, male circumcision being the sacred cow of that to many.


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