# Is CIO ever the lesser of 2 evils??



## Mindful Mom (Jun 9, 2003)

OK, before I get flamed let me say that this is *mostly* a theoretical question, as I can't stand to hear my baby cry for more than 5 seconds -- but I will admit to occasionally having a glimmer of doubt about whether or not I'm doing the right thing.

Zoe is just shy of 6 months old and generally does not sleep unless she's laying with/on me -- usually with a breast in her mouth!! She will occasionally sleep in the swing (sometimes I have to get things done and it's the only thing that works). Ean (my 2 year-old) was also a poor sleeper, but I was able to lay with him whenever he needed me to --- something that's simply not possible at this point. I simply cannot lay with Zoe every single time she needs to sleep -- it's just not fair to Ean. I use a sling all the time, but it doesn't really help with naps becuase Ean loves to poke at her and say "wake up baby, wake up"!! Cute, right?!?

The other difference between Ean and Zoe is that Ean seemed happy and content with the amount of sleep he got, while Zoe is usually miserable and fussy. My mommy-gut is telling me that she's chronically sleep-deprived and that is affecting her health and development. Most of her waking hours are spent fussing and being soothed instead of playing and exploring.

Compounding the problem is the fact that it's been hard for me to really bond with her. I feel sick admitting that, but it's so hard to feel good about someone who's always yelling at you. We co-sleep at night, I EBF on-demand, wear her often, and really try to listen to her cues -- and right now it's like she's wearing a flashing neon sign that says "PLEASE HELP ME SLEEP!!". DH and I are feeling frustrated and resentful, and Ean is needing more attention than I can give him right now. I feel like our entire family is suffering.

I've tried everything -- sling, swaddle, paci, white noise, No Cry Sleep Solution, but all she wants is mommy and a nice warm boob. I understand that those are reasonable and important needs, but how on earth do I meet them without continuing to hurt Ean (not to mention myself and my husband)?

Something has to change -- which is what brings me to my question. When is CIO better than the alternative? Is a few nights of CIO in the context of a loving, supportive family better than ongoing frustration and resentment? Is a few nights of CIO justified when a baby is sleep-deprived to the point of comprimised health and development? Like I said above, this is *mostly* a theoretical question because I just can't stand to hear my baby cry --- but I really am starting to wonder if I'm doing us all a disservice by taking such a rigid stance about it.

Any thoughts?


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

My first thought is "This too shall pass"...but I know that is not very helpful right now.

I think it depends on how your child is going to react to being left to fuss. Will she just fuss a bit, and gradually settle down, or is her fussing going to turn to crying going to turn to wailing, going to turn to desperate cries? If it's the latter, I can assure you that it is NOT going to be something you'll want to try more than once. And you will then probably feel guilty about it for weeks afterwards!

This isn't quite the same thing, but I'll share with you a recent experience of mine: DD's nursing at night as been tough for me lately, with me being pregnant and suffering from insomnia that always seems to be leaving me right when she wakes for a nursing marathon. I had thoughts of weaning. Then we had three terrible nights in one week where nursing didn't help and I had to get up with her in the middle of the night, sometimes more than once, for an hour to four hours at a time, holding her and walking (this is a VERY unusual thing for her). During those times, I realized that even marathon nursing was preferable to this - at least I could lie down and close my eyes. I think you might find if you start trying to do CIO, that you won't be able to stand it and you'll realize that what she's doing now isn't so bad (relatively).

I know you said you've tried everything - but when DD was that age, she fell asleep in our arms while we danced to music. We had our iPod programmed with a bunch of rockin' tunes (mostly ELO, lol) and we would dance around swinging her in our arms. It's so funny b/c I often forget about that - those times seem sooooo long ago, but we did that for at least the first 6 months of her life. It really does get better, mama, I promise!!


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Ok- I will get flamed, so I'll take the heat for you.

At 6 months, I would not try CIO. HOWEVER, I would consider it if she were older, (past 1year). The reason I say this is that you are a family. We try hard to work within the family boundaries and if we hit a situation where one person is disrupting the whole family, we try to figure out the best way to deal with it. If the best way for the whole family LONG term to work better is something that in short term is not best for one, then you have to make that choice.

I would say 6 months is too soon to try CIO.
How about working with other solutions first? Can you get Ean to stop poking his sister when she is in the sling? Maybe she isn't asking for sleep, but something else is bothering her?

Sorry this isn't great advice, I really feel for your situation.....

Foobar officially declares herself open to flames!


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

This may well get me flamed too. Yes, I think that sometimes it is worth trying. I don't think it should be the first resort, but it seems like you are well past that. And I don't think it should be done because it's "convenient" for the parents -- but again that doesn't seem to describe your situation.

I finallly realized that my little one goes to sleep better outside of my arms. I would hold her for hours while she screamed, thrashed, hit, kicked herself to sleep. Because I couldn't handle it, I finally started putting her in her crib instead. She cries about as long as it take me to get down the stairs and then is out. Definitely easier on everyone.

So, yes, I think it is worth trying. Especially as you know your child needs more sleep and she's not getting it. I wouldn't recommend letting her cry for hours, but maybe try 5 min. and see where it gets you. Sort of a "modified for AP" approach.

And, for what it's worth, I think it would be completely reasonable to teach and expect a 2 yr. old not to wake/bother his sister while in the sling.


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## mammastar (Nov 5, 2002)

Well, you can give it a try, and still be a good mommy! My daughter went through a phase (I'm trying to remember how old she was, but all I can come up with is somewhere between 6 and 18 months!!) where she would regularly fall asleep crying, on her own. I would have loved to have stayed with her and cuddled her to sleep, but she couldn't relax and sleep while there was still me to cuddle her - she actually needed the opposite. I hated hearing her cry, but it didn't last long once I left the room and then she would fall asleep. We would swaddle her in a receiving blanket (which looked a bit odd because she was too big for it, but she really felt better once she was 'contained'), say goodnight and leave. If something was off and she was super-upset, we'd go back - but if it was just some crying and then silence, that would be it.

Every child is unique, and what might be terribly cruel for baby A can also be just what baby B needs. This phase didn't last forever for us, and she is now 2 and a half and gets 12 hours of sleep a night and an hour and a half to three hours of napping! She still seems to do best with minimal stimulation to fall asleep though (e.g. can't sleep in car or on any kind of outing, needs blinds closed and quiet) - maybe that was why when she was little being left on her own actually helped.

I'd say give it a try and just test out how she responds - Evan & Anna's mom is right on, I think.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

ITA with Foobar.

And, to show solidarity with her in welcoming the flames, I have a confession.

We did CIO with our older child when she was a year old. Nothing else worked with her, and she was not comforted by our being present, our holding her, our rocking her, food, drink, warm baths, or any one of 10,000 other things we tried. We had a few unusual circumstances that complicated the situation. Dh and I were starting to be genuinely terrified that one of us would fall asleep at the wheel while driving, and not driving indefinitely was not an option.

She needed to CIO a total of three nights in a row. It worked. I would do it again in the same circumstances.

I'm not a big fan of CIO, especially with young babies, and I would try many other things first. But that's my story and I'm sticking to it.


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## Messy Nessie (Apr 13, 2004)

I just wanted to say I am in the *exact* same situation (minus the ds, but plus being a WAHM). I, too, am exhausted and am "guilty" of considering CIO (who hasn't?). This weekend my DH was out of town and I had three loooooong days with my DD (not to mention the sleepless nights w/o help from DH). I decided to let DD "CIO" in my arms on the rocking chair instead of nursing her after being awakened to nurse for the 4th time in an hour (12th time of the night). It didn't work, she ended up hysterical and awake and I was crying, too.

Do you consider your DD high needs? She sounds a lot like my DD (who I consider a high need baby, never having fully recovered from colic) and I think it is generally accepted that HN babes do not respond realy well to CIO. Just something to think about when making this difficult (I know!) decision.

I think you got some great insight from all the other ladies on the thread. I wish you luck and hope you get some rest soon!


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I was in your exact shoes. I had the baby who wouldn't sleep unless I was touching her, she was chronically sleep deprived and therefore always misreable and crying while she was awake. Me touching her like she needed wasn't an option for several reasons. One I had an older child who desperately needed me to ocaisionally focus on her. I was working from my home and often had to show it to perspective renters so it had to be clean (not to mention I did prefer it that way. I am an introvert who need touch free time. I was really becoming resentful I remembering after nursing her for over two ohours once that she still wasn't asleep and I screamed at her for it. how dare she take advantage of me nursing her like that and not reciprocate with sleep. When I was screaming at my 9 month oild to be logical I relized something absolutely had to change and nothing was as bad as this. Even CIO wouldn't make me a worse parent than this. Outside of beating her i had pretty much hit rock bottom. Sleep had to come to everyone. (she had completely disrupted my older childs sleeppatters also because I couln't give Madeline the 15 minutes she needed to fall asleep and get the rest she needed. our whole familyu was breaking down.) Also I couldn't sleep at night because she had to have the nipple in her mouth, which she often chomped down on if she percieved (real or imagined) that she was losing it and she had to be help just so, not really touching the matress but not on top of me. so me just sort of holding her suspended. And it wasn't good enough that I be with her or be holding her. I couldn't be at the computer or even reading a book. She was very demanding and picky about what was allowed to happen while she was sleeping. So eventually I borke down one particularly bad day when I could neither hold her or deal with her overtired crying. I figured she was going to cry here or there or anywhere might as well be in her bed. She screamed for about an hour just getting more and more worked up. I calmed her but as soon as I turned back to the crib she went off again. So we muddled through for another 9 months that way, her crying most of the time, me groowing crabbier and crabbier. Despite swearing we wouldn't have anymore lest the turn into this i found myself pregnant and resentfulk of htis baby who wouldn't even give me a break before we started over. As the pregnancy went on I relized several things. This baby was nothing like Lilyka she wasn't nearly as active and slept well in the womb, I could be proactive about forming good sleep habits, and something had to change with Lilyka. So we got the no cry sleep solution and added some elements from that but went cold turkey with and early bedtime and no nursing before bed. It was brutal but it took exactly four days and she was going to bed at 8:00 instead of 1:00 and she was napping regularly for the first time in her life!! not even as a newborn did she nap regularly. and a couple of weeks later this nice, sdwett, funny, intelegent little girl started waking up. She is amazing. She leaves me in awe. I can't belive I missed her infancy (I seriously have little memory of it I was so strung out with lack of sleep and crying) and she would have been such a wonderful baby. We occasionally caught glimpses of it but rarely. She is so fun and amazing I can hardly believe she is the same child. I swore this next one would sleep regardless of what ot took. Lack of sleep is worse than crying it out. And I don't believe it will natrually pass on its own. w hile Lilyka is bright and charming and well rested now she is still a high maitenence sleeper. Takes the longest to fall asleep, has to have just the right conditions etc . . .it is only with much care and management that she able to get the rest she needs now even as she aproaches four. I have tons of guilt about her infancy. If I had only known more about sleep and children. I assumed if she needed sleep that she would sleep and that she was just naturally crabby (she seriously started with birth. she didn't sleep for almost 24 hours after she was born. maybe an hour or two) we had never seen her any other way. With Ava we started with good sleep habits right away. I tore myself away from her (usually) when she fell asleep and put her in her crib (or whatever container was handy to keep her safe from the girls. :LOL) and the girls were taught to respect her nap time. She was allowed to fuss a little even as a small baby because after doing it once I saw hat she would drift off in a couple of minutes. How much easier than the whole nurse/rock/sleep/set down/scream/start over senario I was used to. This weren't great at the begining either. she was showing a lot of the same traits as lily. then one day I had her on her tummy to play, got stuck doing somehting , she started fussing and fell asleep while I was getting sleaned up enough to get her. She was on her tummy but I dewcided it wasn't worth waking her over. She slept for 3 1/2 hours and I finally freaked out and woke her up up until that point she hadn't slept for more than 20 minutes in a row for a nap. She was just one of those people (like her mama) who have to sleep on thier stomach. I swear I sleep on my stomache throughout my pregnancy. just can't sleep otherwise. Once Inoticed this I watched Lily. Sure enough she can only fall asleep on her tummy. she usually rolls to her back but if she wakles up right back to her tummy until she drifts off. Iwonder if I had put her on her tummy if she would have slept better. Something to think about.

So in short







(thanks if you made it through my novel) I don't think CIO is the worst thing in the world especially if everyone is already misreable and building resentment. The sleeping thing may pass in good time (may not) but those hurtful things, that resentment, those feelings might not. I think it would be far better to spend a few tearful nights (which children will bounce back from. especially older babies who may just be crying because they are put out about being put to bed) than years trying to undo the damage of feeling like you were always running on empty for 2 or 3 solid years.

Not to be a downer or anything. good luck with whichever you decide







what ever is best for your entire family is what is best.


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## MA mommy (Feb 5, 2003)

Is there anyway that you can get Ean and Zoe to nap around the same time?

Julia stopped napping around 18 months. I'm not a big fan of TV. But in the afternoon all 3 of us go in my bedroom. I nurse Megan to sleep and watch a show with Julia. Sometimes I try to fold some laundry too. I wish I had more advice for you.

check this out:
Dr. Jay Gordon
- it's recommended for 12 months and up
http://www.drjaygordon.com/ap/sleep.htm


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## thoesly (Dec 23, 2003)

Just thought I'd chime in to say that I don't think anyone here deserves flames. Everyone has made some valid points. I am opposed to CIO the way many people practice it -- walking away and not going back regardless of the type of cry. Some kids, though, need to fuss down to sleep (which is different from other types of crying -- you know what I mean). My daughter had a 3-month period of this where she didn't want to be in bed with me, didn't want to be touched, held, etc. If I put her in her crib, she would fuss for about 5 minutes, and then sleep all night. I didn't figure this out until I had to put her down one night to help her older brother. It worked great, but after 3 months, she was ready to come back to my bed. And that was okay, too.

Responding to your baby means listening to your baby's cues. Sometimes that goes against what you want (I was heartbroken when by daughter wanted the crib because I thought it was permanent). And sometimes that means going against what the baby seems to "want" to give him or her what he/she "needs."

Best of luck,

Tara


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## slightlycrunchyann (Apr 15, 2004)

Hi Tricia, guess who?







I don't have much to add, I was just perusing some posts and your title caught my eye--then I started reading and thought, "hey, this sounds familiar." Then it sunk in. I am soooo tired today, I'm a little slow! Believe me, I'm having plenty of thoughts right now as to whether we should have been firmer on this issue a long time ago. I don't know what the best solution is for you, but I hope you find one soon.









Anne & Riley 9-7-02


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

My dd had reflux. She cried to sleep a lot more than I liked her to. Some time she cried with daddy, some times with me, but never alone.


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## Nate (Sep 3, 2003)

I'll confess too. At about 4-6 months we used cio. For a long time I'd been able to nurse her down, but she got to a point where I'd try to nurse her down, and she'd start to go to sleep but then wake up & start bouncing around (she was learning to creep/crawl at this point). Occasionally I was able to get her down by just holding her in my arms, swinging from side to side & singing everything I could come up with. She HATED this b/c she really wanted to be playing, exploring, etc. So she'd start fussing, etc., and eventually start crying & wailing, and then finally I'd nurse her & she'd go down b/c she was so tired from the crying.







:

However, this didn't always work. Sometimes we'd go through all this, she'd nurse...then she'd wake up again & start bopping around. It'd be 10, 11 o'clock, she'd've been awake since 4, dh & I would be exhausted, and she'd be ready to party. It was like my presence would just excite her & remind her that there was LIFE out there, and she needed to LIVE it!

So finally we got a crib. We tried to do the gentle transition--no luck. I really needed a break one night, so did as much soothing as I could (hah) then put her in the crib & left. DH went in to get her after 10 min., saying "I don't care what the books say, I think it's cruel." But in another day or 2 he was as exhausted as I was, and we bit the bullet.

Here's the thing--babies have different cries, and I learned to tell the difference btwn them. There's fussing, there's mad crying, and then there's hysterical "I've been abandoned & am terrified" crying. I can't listen to the 3rd. But her crying those nights last summer was the 2nd kind, for the most part. I'd put her down, she'd yell furiously, then she'd go to sleep--and sleep 8 hours at a time!

Now she's 13 months, and we have a good bedtime ritual. Usually I have to nurse her all the way down. Every so often she'll nurse part way down, then (gasp) go to sleep on her own. And then there are the nights where she'll nurse, then suddenly stop, look at me, and start in w/ the





















.
At that point I usually give up & try again in 1/2 hour.

A PP said they wouldn't do CIO w/ a baby under a year--it's funny, b/c I can't do it at all now. The few times I've tried it recently, she's sounded just terrified.

So (make a L O N G story short), yes, I think sometimes CIO is better than the alternative. Not fun or easy for you, but remember, for the next 18 yrs you're going to (at least occasionally) have to make your dc do something s/he doesn't want to do, or stop her from doing things she does want to do. And guess what--she'll cry then, too!

My brain just stopped working, so I'll leave it there... good luck!


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## mammastar (Nov 5, 2002)

This is very therapeutic! CIO is one topic where I'd get guilty twinges wherever I'd see a post on these boards ... I'm glad to know that the middle ground I found, others have found too.

I thought Lilyka made some great points. Sometimes you think it's all your baby's personality or your own flaws as a parent, when really everything you're both experiencing is coloured by sleep deprivation.

And the 'mad cry' was definitely something we heard a lot of for a while, but then the rest of the time we had a well-rested, content child. Different from the hysterical, abandoned cry, and in our case it was worth it.

My midwife always said that if you're super-stressed and just can't take it, it's always better to just put your baby somewhere safe and leave the room. If you doing so stresses them some, but saves them from being around a strung-out, about-to-break parent, then it's better even if it leaves you feeling less than perfect.

And definitely try to set up some boundaries for your 2 year old around not disturbing the baby. I don't know if he's a young 2 or an old 2, which makes a difference, but you may want to try some kind of natural automatic consequences so he gets the idea quickly, eg if he is going to disturb the baby, he can't be around where she is sleeping (whether it's around you if she's slinged, or the crib if she is sleeping on her own (you wish!). With reinforcement, of course, that you want to be with him but cannot allow him to disturb her sleep because everyone needs sleep to feel happy. I also know my 2 year old would understand if I said "The baby is sad now. She is sad because she was sleepy and you woke her up," and mine would feel bad. If that was followed up with a consequence (the baby is sad and needs to sleep, you did not let the baby sleep, you need to play in another room so she can sleep), that might help.


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## irishprincess71 (Mar 22, 2003)

My baby is also 6 months old with a toddler brother. Until 2 weeks ago he would NOT sleep anywhere anytime for more than 10 minutes unless someone was right next to him. If you think I am exagerating, DH and I haven't had sex since before he was born because there is no way in HELL I am doing a 10 minute quickie the first time after birth









2 weeks ago I decided that he was old enough that I could try teaching him to sleep on his own. I would nurse him to sleep at the same time I put my toddler to bed. When they were both asleep I would move the baby to the spare room and leave. From the beginning he slept for at least a half hour, the times have increased to over 4 hours. When I go to bed I take him with me. If he wakes up before then I go in and nurse him to sleep and leave again. I have come to realize that he wants and needs it dark and quiet to be able to sleep soundly. In fact, it may come to the point where he will need his own bed and own room soon









You might want to try putting her to sleep and in a quiet room, it may not work as quickly as my son (I had no idea it would happen so fast for me) but she may sleep better and you won't have to CIO at all.

HTH


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## pageta (Nov 17, 2003)

I'll admit to using CIO...when I'm so frustrated that it's either that or shaking ds. I leave him in a room where he is safe. Then I go to another room and re-group. My sanity is just as important as not leaving him alone to CIO. Usually it only takes a couple minutes for me to re-group. There have been times, though, when I'm so mad at him because he won't go down, he won't be comforted no matter what I do. I just get frustrated and I tell him "Mommy feels the same way you do. Now you cry here and Mommy will go into another room and cry." Sometimes I think he just needs to get some frustration out of his system. I'll leave him to cry for two or three minutes, and when I can't stand it any more, I'll come back, and he'll be much easier to calm. I don't know if it's me doing a better job or if he's more receptive to being soothed once he's gone without for a few minutes or even if crying just wears him out so he's even more ready to go to sleep. This doesn't happen very often, but it does occasionally, and we just do the best with the situation we have.


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Whew! Thanks guys, I was afraid to post my view, but you guys are so supportive!

Goo is going through a phase right now of leaving her bed and then screaming on the floor because we won't let her play... It is making me consider CIO even though she is a pretty good sleeper otherwise (she has crib slept all her life and will only snuggle on her terms)

I am trying to find alternate solutions, so it is good to hear what others have done.

And yes, I would not consider the Feber method. I would only do a modified version that allows her to know that we are still there for her.....


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I think there have been some great posts here. And situations that make it hard to come down on anybody faced with severe sleep deprivation.

I do want to make one point, however, that is probably well understood by everybody here, but I want to put it out there for any lurkers, etc...

I honestly, in my heart of hearts, do not believe that cosleeping and not doing CIO, and holding and rocking etc CREATES bad sleepers. I'm guessing that babies like Lilyka may have been bad sleepers from birth. I don't think she was "made" that way. I say this because it really upsets me to think that people are reading this and maybe "blaming" AP for "creating sleep monsters".

I know too many people, myself included, who have done all those things (holding, rocking, nursing for as long as it takes) and honestly I think DD is a great sleeper. But really, her patterns were obvious even in the womb, and she held those patterns for the first year of her life, give or take a few short-lived phases. I've rarely had any trouble putting her down when she's asleep (as a baby), she sleeps long and naps well.

Foo - I don't know what it is. Last week was hell - three times that week she woke up in the middle of the night wanting to PLAY and hang out in the living room. Knock on wood but we're on to five days now with a totally predictable nap schedule and good nights (now, if my pregnancy-induced insomnia would disappear I'd be sleeping better, lol).


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
I honestly, in my heart of hearts, do not believe that cosleeping and not doing CIO, and holding and rocking etc CREATES bad sleepers. I'm guessing that babies like Lilyka may have been bad sleepers from birth. I don't think she was "made" that way. ).

Yeah Lily just needs lots of help sleeping. But if I had been open to that at birth and had a plan it would never have gotten as bad as it did. there seems to be thie elitism in AP (and I was totally a part of it )that says our way is perfect and all your problems will be solved if you do it our way and no other way is nessecary. Because of this I felt that if I stuck with the rules, well I felt I had no choice but to stickto the rules, to do otherwise would be *gasp* mainstream!!!!!!!







: So I religiously stiuck with co-sleeping, babywearing, no schedules and help fast to the belief that if she was tired she would sleep. well I thought. she must not be tired. She is just Lily. Even when I considered CIO i thought I was wreckiing her and felt selfish and like a failure. In the end the whole mess was caused because I was listen more to the AP rules than I was to my baby and doing what my baby needed. Of course i had noi idea that what my baby needed. Ididn't even know what my baby needed. These sort of conversations rarely come up in APO circles.

I also am a firm believer in not starting things with mychidlren that I know are going to drive me crazy 3, 6, 12 months from now. I knew that it would be a pretty smooth transition from family bed to regular bed. no big. But I knew this time I didn't want my child to depend on my breast for sleeping. even though I don't care when they are so new a sweet and can do no wrong I know it will really start to drive me crazy when they are about 9 or 10 months. So why do that to them,. They have no expectation f what will happen when they are born so why put these grand expectations in thier head. we nurse we snuggle, I kiss you a zillion times and then I turn out the light and say good night. No big. It isn't as fun as rocking an snuggling those first months away but at the same time I don't think those first months of fun are worth the trauma weaning from such things causes some kids when thier parents freak out and haven't got the reserves to go slowly or with love. why not start on the path you want to go down. especially with sleep. I know Ava wouldn't be such a good sleeper if we weren't so dedicated to nurturing her sleep. we deviated for a couple of months and she spirialed down very quickly. it only took a few days to get back on track once I relized how far we had fallen and how very important it was that we work activily toward good sleep. I think for many many kids in order to have good sleep parents have to work actively to provide the environment that creates that. Pain? you bet ya, but not nearly as painful as repairing the damage that Lilyka had.. Now after all this babble it is an hour and half past thier bed time and they are eating candy (she hangs her head in shame. she got her birthday treats at church. I figure she could eat them now or sneak them in bed and eat them after she brushed her teeth. Mught as well go down the hatch and be done with it ) good night. sweet dreams.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

I have a reflux baby. Until recently when we got some good meds for her, she would scream nonstop and it was awful, horrible, just tore at my mommy hormones and I wanted to make it stop. When I held her she'd arch her back and push away from me because she was hurting so much, and I just couldn't make her comfortable. She would turn into a little red sweatball. My older dd was also affected by it and would start acting out. So when it got really bad and I felt like I was about to lose it I have swaddled her, put her in the bouncy, shut the door, and walked away. I have done this for up to about 20 minutes. I just had to get away. I can see now why shaken baby happens. I never could before. Thank goodness she's on her meds now!!

There was one other time when she was about a month old and dh and I were exhausted with the needs of a new baby and a 3yo. I was pumping at the time so was up every 2-3 hours to pump and then had to feed the baby on demand. Dh wakes up at 4:30 Am for work and was also getting no sleep. One night she would not go to sleep so I put her in the cosleeper and was patting her and I think I fell asleep when she was still crying. I can't remember, we were so tired. But when I woke up again she was asleep next to me.

Lastly, when older dd was 10 mos old she was fighting sleep and would wake at 2 Am wanting to play, would not go to sleep for anything. this had been going on for at least a month. Dh and I decided to play dead in bed. She woke up and we pretented to keep sleeping. She got so mad at us, it was different than a scared cry. She was just really screaming mad.
she pulled at my clothes and I just patted her and said, "Mommy's here, go to sleep now" and kept my eyes closed and continued to lie down. I'm sure my knuckels were white while I listend to her cry but eventually she did lie down and go back to sleep because there was nothing else to do in the dark. A few nights of that and she never woke up at night again, slept straight through until morning unless she was in sick or something.

Darshani


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

While I think CIO is really wrong with newborns I think there may be a time for it. For three months I was a walking Zombie. We adopted a baby with high needs, FAE, and reflux-- none that I Was prepared for. Quickly I became a bundle of nerves from his constant crying day in and day out. He didn't like co sleeping so we had a bassinet and then a playpen in our roon and then we set up the crib in his room. I actually left him with my neighbor for 10 days while the rest of us went on Vacation. The alternative to that was checking into a mental facility because I was so depressed and whacked out I was having some pretty bad bizarre thoughts. Some RNR did the trick and when I got back home to him I told him "we are starting over" Rough waters were still ahead and every day and night I would hold and try to comfort him to sleep. At six months old, I decided I couldnt suffer and neither could my husband and so we let him CIO. And actually every night for more than a year this is how he went to bed. And he went to bed fairly quickly too but he always cried bloody murder and drifted off to sleep. If you tried holding and soothing him, he still cried bloody murder but wouldnt go to sleep.

Frankly, I couldnt be a martyr for this child. My body hurt. I was sleep deprived. My marriage was suffering, my sex life was suffering, the other child was suffering and something had to give. I don't think AP should be the detriment of your life and at times I Felt like it was.

My third child I night weaned and eventually kicked out of my bed because it was causing more harm than good. I can't be super mom. I'm never going to be on the cover of Mothering as the poster mom for AP or Natural Living. And as I get older I have to reconcile my needs and my childrens needs and my marriage needs and often take the lessers of two evils.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

I've had to do a modified CIO with Olivia a few times. She sometimes wakes up at 2 am or some other ungodly hour and decides she's up for the day. NOTHING will get her back to sleep. One night I just left and she cried for 7 minutes and went back to sleep. So now when she does that I do leave her to cry for a few minutes. But I make sure I don't leave her to long by going out and sitting on the couch and setting the microwave timer for 10 minutes. If the timer goes off and she is still crying then I go in. But usually she will stop crying after 2-3 minutes. But she is almost 18 months so that's bit older. I personally couldn't do it at 6 months. At this age I KNOW that she knows I'm still there, she's just mad.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

DC went through a "please help me sleep" stage at about 9 months. I was a new mom obsessed with preventing her from crying&#8230;well, live and learn - my DC *wanted* to cry before she fell asleep. When I came to my senses about controlling every little wimper I was able to see her emotions more clearly. After I stopped stressing over letting (allowing) her to cry she would pull off the breast and belt out a loud cry and then sigh and fall to sleep. When I let her have her feelings they were out and dealt with quickly. I know she was using crying as a release and to help exhaust herself. At 2.5 years she still occasionally creates a situation where she can let go and cry. She'll ask for a piece of chocolate in bed after we've turned off the lights knowing full well that I'll say no. This will help her cry and then she falls asleep.

To answer your question, OP, yes, I think CIO can definitely be the lesser of two evils. I also think there are many ways/reasons for "CIO" that I would not even define in that way.

I see CIO labeled in very negative ways here and I'm not sure it is entirely deserved. Not because I don't think one end of the CIO spectrum is potentially harmful but because I think CIO can actually cover many different situations - as mentioned several times by other posters.

I'm curious to know how things go for you. My DC is 2.5 and we've been making some gradual sleep changes. I agree that you probably haven't created the sleep problems but it is normal for your DC to have become accustomed to how she/he has been sleeping up until now.

I know it's hard to make any changes while you're desperate for sleep buy I suggest trying to make some gradual changes, which could include allowing DC to "fuss" a little.

Good luck to you.


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Piglet-

Good point. I also agree that co-sleeping and AP doesn't make bad sleepers.

Darshani-

THANK YOU! This is what Goo is doing. She just wants to play. Thankfully, last night she slept all night


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## Nate (Sep 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
I'm never going to be on the cover of Mothering as the poster mom for AP or Natural Living.


One thing Sears says in The Discipline Book, which I think we often forget, is that AP is about communication--really listening to what your child needs (which as we all know does NOT automatically mean what he wants!), and giving it to him. This means that there aren't one-size-fits-all solutions to every problem, sleeping included.

And sometimes, to be able to function as an effective AP parent, and to be able to meet our childrens' needs long term, we need to temporarily put our own needs ahead of the child's.

I have a couple of friends who finally night weaned by letting their children CIO at 11 months. It was hard for a few days, but the parents were exhausted & the babies were ready to party at 2 am. Now their babies sleep through the night (sigh, a faint light on the horizon for us) and guess what? They're happy, well-adjusted children. Happier, probably, than they were before, b/c they're getting enough sleep (and so are the parents).

I'm not sure I'll ever be able to do it that way--middle of the night crying is way too tough for me to listen to--but if Clara gets to 18 months or 2 yrs and is still waking 3x/night & needing to nurse back to sleep every time, I may be singing a different tune.

Morning ramblings...

eta:
Foo, Darshani, Piglet;
Knock on wood, we haven't had a 2 am party for a while, but boy, we've had a few. There've been times when she's been up & ready to play, and absolutely nothing I do will get her to go back down. Holding, rocking, nursing, shushing, playing dead--none of it works. Finally I take her into her room (last resort, usually when this has been going on an hour or so), put Raffi or Pete Seeger on, put a bunch of stuffed animals, books, toys--whatever I can find--into her crib, put her in, and leave. Usually she'll play for a while, then start throwing things out, then fuss, then go back to sleep. In the meantime, I've gone back to bed, and will usually wake up if it doesn't work & she's howling--most of the time, though, I wake up an hour later & realize the house is totally silent. We co-sleep, but boy am I glad we have a crib for times like that!

I've also had some luck trying it when she's up at 6 on a Saturday & dh & I desperately want to go back to bed.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Well, I must have jinxed myself. DD went to bed at about 8 pm last night, then woke up at 1:30 am and wanted to hang out in the living room. Basically, she woke and nursed a bit, then let go and began to cry. She asked to go "out" (out of the bedroom) and for a while she just clung to me while I walked around. I thought she might go back to sleep, but she didn't. She eventually sat up, asked for the TV to be put on. I got her a snack and some water, and we "partied" until about 3:30 am when I got too tired and brought her back to bed. She cried when we walked into the bedroom, and cried when I lay her down, but she took my breast immediately and then drifted off to sleep.

Now, my current theory is that DD is waking up hungry. Sometimes she doesn't eat much dinner, and sometimes she falls asleep very early. We're working on the idea that nights of frequent nursing (which really isn't enough to satiate her since I think my milk supply is dwindling) or full waking is due to hunger. I'm *trying* to remember to feed her a snack before bedtime but it's not part of our routine and I have had this idea that she will ask if she's hungry, which apparently she doesn't necessarily do.

But...if that doesn't work, I'm wondering about what Darshani said. Thing is, I just can't handle crying at night. I worry about it waking up DH, I worry about it waking up the neighbours (thin apartment walls). And mostly, I find it very very hard to listen to myself. Lying in bed doing nothing while she wails on the floor is very tough to stomach, and I tend to think whatever keeps her quiet is the best (easiest?) option. So I get out of my warm bed and do whatever it is she needs/wants. But reading Darshani's post made me wonder if maybe I should just let her cry a bit.

I actually do something like this in the mornings already. I've had so much trouble sleeping at night that now in the mornings DH gets up with DD and I stay in bed for an hour or more. Often DD wants me to get up with her, and will cry if I don't. Lately I've had no choice but to tell her "No, mama's sleeping, mama's very tired". She does cry, but then she gets over it. Maybe this is something I need to start doing at night (once I've ruled out the hunger thing, that is - if she is hungry that must be dealt with).

My mother's coming to visit in 2 weeks and she's not going to get any sleep if DD keeps this up, since she'll be sleeping in the living room!


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

Piglet,

Hugs for the tough night.
We have brought in Cheerios before if she has gotten hungry. She will gobble them up if she is hungry and just play with them if she isn't. This works better for us than bringing in a drink because she'll ALWAYS take a drink.

However, both DH and I have been waking up thirsty lately, and I wonder if Goo isn't having that same problem????

AH, sleep. It will happen at somepoint. This is a short phase of life.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

I want to say that once I night weaned Jack, even though it was tough and he had some fitful nights with Daddy, once the first week was over, our lives was better. He was a much better child during the day, not nearly as tired acting and walking in a fog himself.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

My DC used to eat at night. We have a different situation because we aren’t nursing but I stopped feeding her at night by starting a new night time routine including a bed time snack and then brushing the teeth to symbolize that there would be no more food until it was light outside again. I expected a big fit the first few nights but there was absolutely no problem. Good luck…


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## Mindful Mom (Jun 9, 2003)

Thanks everyone!! It was nice to be able to post this without getting flamed (I was nervous -- lol!!).

I have to admit that I've never thought CIO was child abuse. I know that many people here believe it to be -- and although I don't think it's anywhere *near* the ideal, I don't think that (in and of itself) it's child abuse. We did try CIO with my son when he was about 7 months old. We were motivated to try it after I fell asleep driving. I was terrified of killing us in car crash, so it was definitaly one of those times I would consider a lesser of 2 evils. Of course, we only tried it for a night or two because it just felt so wrong. A few months later, after nothing else worked, we tried a modified approach -- we let him cry but we stayed with him the entire time. It was actually a long, drawn-out process, starting with being rocked to sleep (instead of nursing to sleep), then eventually going to the crib awake but with us laying next to him and hold his hand. It took the better part of a year for us to teach him to go from nursing every 1.5 to 2 hours all night, to going to bed awake and sleeping all night. Letting him cry happend every time we took the next step and it probably took longer than letting him CIO alone, but we were able to feel good about what we were doing (well, not _good_ exactly, but you all know what I mean!!).

I think we're probably headed down the same road with Zoe (not right now, but a few months from now). My concern is that I won't be able to devote the same amount of time to it -- with Ean I was able to lay with him as long as he needed me to, but I just can't do that for Zoe unless I leave Ean to his own devices for hours at a time!! UGH -- maybe I should just worry about it if and when the time comes!

Anyway -- thanks for not making me feel evil!!


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## laralou (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mindful Mom*
Thanks everyone!! It was nice to be able to post this without getting flamed (I was nervous -- lol!!).
<snip>
Anyway -- thanks for not making me feel evil!!

I have been so happy to see how this thread has gone. It makes me feel a lot safer sending my more mainstream-oriented friends here for advice!


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## sleepies (Nov 30, 2001)

i would maybe try this....

sort of let her cry, but lay next to her and pat her back, or stand next to her and pat her back.

if you do not want her falling asleep nursing (and i can understand), then it isn't mean to whisper softly to her and give her love, without feeding (PROVIDED she is not really hungry).

there is also the thing you could have your husband stay with her for a few hours at night while you are in the other room, outside, or something.....and he could calmly give her re-assurance, without nursing to sleep....

i think it is OK, to let them cry, if you are there, and talking softly....trying to make it ok.

id not let the baby cry alone.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I definitely think that there are different types of crying. We have to trust mamas who are in tune with their babies that they know the difference between a frustrated, tired, cry versus a desperate, pleading, frightened, needy cry. I think that a mama can certainly try "CIO" if they are well-attached to their baby and can tell the difference between their different cries, monitoring them closely, etc. I personally would not be comfortable doing this to a baby under a year old myself, but then I was never driven to the point of exhaustion that many here have experienced.

Now, sorry to hijack your thread, Mindful Mom, but since I seem to be living through a phase with DD right now, I wanted to post an encouraging update.

Last night DD went to bed very early (before 7) due to having a shorter-than-usual nap during the day. She didn't get a chance to eat much before bedtime, and DH and I were dreading the nightwaking we knew would come. Sure enough, at about 12:30 am she woke up crying, wanting to go "out" (out of the bedroom). I kept asking her if she was hungry and she kept wailing and saying no, but eventually she pointed to the kitchen and said yes to yogurt. We sat at the computer and played toddler games while she ate at least 1.5 cups or more of yogurt quite hungrily and drank some water.

By this time she was wide awake and having a great ol' time. I was not, however, and dreading another 3 hour Party Time. So I decided to be a bit more firm and see how it went. I gave her the usual 2-minute warning and said we'd be going to bed. She shook her head and said no, but as is happening more and more often, she quite willingly left the activity when the time was up. She nursed for some time and couldn't fall asleep, and finally got up and out of bed. She said "out" and "play" and I said "no, DD, mama's sleeping. it's night time. we don't play at nighttime, we sleep". She threw herself down on the floor and started wailing. DH began to question how smart a plan this was. I have to admit, I was not enjoying it myself, and unsure of whether I was doing the right thing and how it would go. Well, I swear we had just made these comments to each other, it was about 30 seconds, and DD just abruptly stopped crying, got up, and came to bed.

The second major achievement is that she went to sleep without nursing. She nursed for a bit when she climbed into bed, then unlatched herself and rolled over. I rubbed her back, she changed positions a few times, and eventually fell asleep! She didn't need milkies!







(she has done this once or twice, but this night it was a particular relief!).

So, despite being very tired this morning, DH and I are feeling quite optimistic. If we can get her to eat lots before bedtime, hopefully that will stop the nightwaking from hunger. Now we know we don't HAVE to go out and play when she wakes in the middle of the night (and Foo, great idea about keeping cereal handy - that ought to help us decide whether it's hunger or just wanting to play). Once that issue is done for, I will begin some nightweaning. She's already getting pretty good at having her day-nursing limited, so I'm hopeful that this will all go smoothly. I don't want to wean her completely, but I do want to cut down on it.

Anyways, to relate this all to the thread at hand....I realize this is a much older baby (DD is 22 months), but this experience has shown me that sometimes it's not a bad idea to at least give it a try. I listened very carefully to the tone of DD's cry. She was not traumatized, she was just upset. And I'm very proud of her that she got over it so quickly. I feel good about what we are doing. I feel I'm setting some limits, but at the same time, I'm setting her up for success by providing her with limits that _she can meet_, she can handle them.


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## Mindful Mom (Jun 9, 2003)

I'm glad to hear about your success Piglet! We were always surprised by Ean's willingness to conform to our limits -- like you, we often sat breathless and wondering what what going to happen next!! In situations like that, I view crying as an expression of frustration and the difficulity of learning something new --- and I think expressing those emotions is key to growth.

Oh -- and OT:

What are you doing a post-doc in? I am (was, I suppose!) a neuroscientist myself, so I've been curious.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

That's what was going through my head, too. That this was just another of Life's little frustrations. Things she experiences every day. I've seen her do this throw-herself-on-the-floor-and-wail thing, and she weathers it very well. So I hoped it would be the same way at night (something about thinking of all the neighbours waking up to your kid crying puts the edge on, you know? lol ) and it was!

(my post-doc is in cardiac electrophysiology.







)


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## Nate (Sep 3, 2003)

YAY for you, Piglet!

Makes me hopeful for the future. DD's been waking up anywhere from 45-90 min after going down, the last few weeks, and I'll nurse her back down & put her in her cradle, and she instantly wakes up & howls, so I take her to our room & nurse her down there. BUt it's getting old--I'd really like at least a few hours asleep just w/ dh b/f she comes in to join us...

Not to mention, after she goes to bed is the only time I can clean the kitchen/do the laundry/watch TV/read/generally get anything done, so it'd be nice to get that back...


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## sleepies (Nov 30, 2001)

when my son was a small baby..
and he woke up at night....

i turned the lights on fulll blast....changed his diaper...and fed him......

he hated the bright lights and diaper change...

so he didn't wake often. he knew what it meant.

maybe that would help?

don't know. worth a shot.

cry=light= not fun


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

To answer the op~people are going to do what they feel is right. For me, personally, it was never right for ds to cry alone.


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## Midwesternmomma (Nov 2, 2003)

MindfulMama - I did a modified version of CIO with both of my kids and will admit to it readily . I did A LOT of research on the fuctions of the brain, especially in children, when they are well rested and when they are sleep deprived. The sleep deprived children had the tendancy to so many more problems, that I couldn't let a little fussing stand in my way of setting amazing sleep patterns that they would have the rest of their lives.

With my ds it took a while to work because we didn't even try a "system" of any sort till he was 4mo old. By six months he was sleeping 10 hours a night every night. With dd we started the same kind of system at birth and by 9 weeks she was sleeping in 6 hour streches, by 12 she was sleeping 10 hours, now sleeps between 12-13 and takes 3 hours worth of naps. With our son we would put him in his crib and let him cry for 2 min, go check, pat, love, etc... leave, 5 min later, go check, pat, love, etc, leave... 7 min later.. on and on and on until the intervals were much more spaced out and he eventually learned to sleep. Someone else mentioned stomach sleeping.. that was VERY important to both of my kids, neither would sleep on the backs for more than 2 minutes without screaming, no matter how much we swaddled them.

ITA with so many other people who have posted, you CAN choose CIO. I recommend you nurse the baby, play with the baby, and get her ready to sleep, in that order... that's what we did because it avoided dependancy on the breast for sleep.

I hope you and your baby get the sleep you need and find the best way for you and your family to arrive at that... whatever it is!

Good luck!
Christina


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## sagewinna (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
To answer the op~people are going to do what they feel is right. For me, personally, it was never right for ds to cry alone.











I am not comfortable letting my kids cry alone either.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Christina, I have to ask...and I mean this with all respect...

You say you researched the ill effects that sleep deprivation can have on children. Yet you say you did your method on your second child from birth. So, how could you know that your child was suffering from sleep deprivation? It almost sounds from your post (and please correct me if I'm not getting you) that you believe UNLESS you sleep train your child, they WILL be sleep deprived. Otherwise, I can't see why you would start sleep-training with a newborn. Was your first child chronically sleep-deprived at 4 mos (and is that what then prompted you to do this?). How were you handling sleep before you instituted your plan (ie. were you cosleeping, nursing, etc.)?

My other question is whether you have researched the "normal" sleep patterns of children. Because it seems to me that a 12 week old baby sleeping 10 hours without waking is actually abnormal. And, in fact, I would be very worried about SIDS and other arousal problems like sleep apnea.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

I just wanted to clarify my point. I am AGAINST CIO but in my case I have let my over one year old child cry for a maximum of 10 minutes. I don't agree with leaving a child to cry as a matter of course. If it happens like it has for me a few times because you are about ready to go ballistic then thats one thiing but choosing it as a parenting practice I am 100% against. I don't think that was clear in my previous post.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

The question wasn't addressed to me but we did a similar one - had a sleep deprived child and went in an opposite direction with the next one to prevent it.

We started with our third at birth. Here is why:
we didn't want to have to undo anything.
we thought it would be easier that way (and it was)
we didn't want her to have to spend any time sleep deprived

that said, we only let her fuss for a few minutes and never let her sceam and wail. She does occaisionally now but it isn't scared or sad crying. usually she is throwing a fit because she doesn't want to stop what she is doing. My seven year old also does this but she doesn't need as much sleep as ava does.







t just seemed kinder to me to get her used to one way, a way that we could stick to and not have to chgange by drastic measures one day when my reserves were used up and wqe were both exahausted and full of bad habits. Also I never expected her to sleep through the night until she was around a year. 10 hours does seem like a long time for a very young child to go but that might be normal for that baby.

Once you have seen how effected a child could become from sleep deprevation you are more highly motivated to prevent it. It was very sad watching my baby suffer from it and not to mention the toll it took on me and my parenting ability. I was determined not to even go down a road that could lead to that again. If you can see where your mistakes were why not refrain from making them again.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

A lot of people have answered this from the parents' point of view. "It's so hard for you to listen to her crying." Try to remember to look at it from the baby's side too. Crying all alone in a crib can be a very scary experience, and six months is a young baby. Even Ferber doesn't recommend CIO before six months (so doing it at six months you're right on the cusp).

I don't see anything wrong with you not keeping the baby latched on the entire night, but I'm not comfortable with the idea of a baby crying alone. Maybe you can teach her to fall asleep in your arms without nursing. Or you could lay down next to her until she falls asleep. She may still cry, but she won't be alone.


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## Midwesternmomma (Nov 2, 2003)

Piglet - Very much as Lilyka said, we had a very sleep deprived baby the first time around and chose to avoid that entirely the second time by doing what worked for us the first time right from the start. No, my dd (child #2) was not sleep deprived, as Lilyka said, when you've been there once, you don't want to do it again.

I cannot, or will not, speak for other people's babies, but I know that my children have THRIVED from being able to sleep as their body needs. I was never worried about my children being at any greater risk of SIDS, there are sources that will scare you into believing that babies should not sleep for a long time... the only thing I can say is that with the "schedule" that we set for our family the children were not forced, by ANY means to sleep for long streches, they did that all on their own, when their sleep patterns got organized. It happened all by itself!

To answer some of your questions - yes we co-slept with our first, until we realized that he really didn't want it and would sleep better without us there. (Again, not something we liked the idea of..) and we had a co-sleeper for our second, then crib for a while, now our bed most of the time. Depends on her mood. And, yes, both were breastfed.

Hope that helps.. I am off now though..I am leaving for Europe on Monday morning and I have to pack and get ready.









Christina


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I will offer a counter to the "once you've been there you will know" response in several posts supporting withholding a response to crying as a cure or preventive to sleep issues.

We have been there, and withholding a response to crying was not a choice I chose to make.

I feel validated in having chosen to respond every time my son cried. I say that only to remind anyone reading that having a baby with sleep challenges does not automatically mean that you choose CIO, and not choosing CIO does not automatically mean you later will wish that you did.

I believe that CIO "works". It is popular for a reason, and I never questioned that leaving my son to cry would condition him to fall asleep alone and eventually, with very little crying involved.

Making a choice not to practice CIO was a reflection of something I felt strongly both when my son was a baby, and now, years later.

I believed, and continue to believe, that sleep disruption is interconnected to the psyche, and the emotional life of a pre verbal individual.

My response to it and my continued understanding of it are not easy to describe in a few sentences, but for clarity's sake I will try









Why would a baby choose not to get enough sleep? It's an interesting question. I felt it wasn't a choice the baby made, so much as an inability to stop the expression of "something". I felt strongly that this "Something" was a need to communicate a feeling of distress. Babies are eventually adults, and the same kinds of social dynamics in adults are often present in a more primal form with babies. An adult with something " weighing on their mind"
behaves much like the babies described here~needing constant distraction from what is bothering them. But that distraction doesn't do enough, and the problem comes up in adult conversation again and again. Often, it disrupts sleep.

What to do about this dynamic in a baby took a great deal of soul searching for myself. I began to view his sleep disruption as his only way of communicating his distress. "Stopping" the crying was not really the focus of my search. I wanted to understand what the crying meant for him. Even though there were many nights that I felt I would settle for him stopping, I quickly came back to my need to feel I was hearing him.

An excellent book I found a few years later described my feelings "The Aware Baby" by Aletha Solter. While her philosophy as a whole differs somewhat from mine, I feel that her fundamental views on crying and how to deal with it are truly ahead of their time. A quick read of the first chapters of that book offers practical advice that I won't do justice to typing here.

Without waxing eternal in this post, I will wrap it up by saying that it truly is not easy to serve as both caretaker to and emotional counselor of a crying baby. The physical demands on the former take away from your patience as the latter.

But the experience of viewing it this way has itself opened new doors, and offered new energy for me along the way. It was a way to understand myself better, and my connection to my son better. To that end, it was not always something that took from me, but at times, gave back to me in the serving of both roles.

As I said in my first post, people will do what they feel is right. If you feel in your heart that responding to every cry is right, I think there are deep roots to this issue that will offer both strength and validation to your inner voice.


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## Sleepymama (Oct 9, 2003)

I considered CIO many times. We even tried a modified version of it once, not leaving him but not picking him up either. Pure and utter hell. It was our "end of the rope" moment. My DS is like Lilyka's DD, he needs lots of help sleeping. A LOT. People always tell you that if they're tired, they'll sleep. Uh-uh. HN babies don't know how to fall asleep, the world is screaming at them and they can't turn it off. Now that my DS is sleeping better (he's 16 months now) I can really see how sleep deprivation made him just unbearable, asleep or awake, for his first 13 or so months. (He had two heart surgeries, but I think he would have been like this anyway.)

What finally worked for us was moving out of our bed--not enough room for him, DH and myself--and putting a queen sized futon on the floor of his room. Dh and I started taking turns sleeping with him there, and DH put him to sleep by carrying & rocking. I nursed. Then, around 14 months, I stopped nursing to sleep. This gentle progression cut his wakings down from 10-12 per night to 1-3. He even sleeps alone in his bed for a couple hours after we get him to sleep, where he would wake up instantly if I left before. Getting him used to sleeping with DH took some work on DH's part (a lot of chest sleeping) but I think it has really paid off. Naps are still a problem, he really resists them and only lasts about a half hour in his bed before he needs to be held for another hour. But we're working on it, he's working down to one nap a day and that is helping.

But I can really relate to the OP's situation, minus the toddler. Getting him to sleep for 6 naps a day and then bouncing on the exercise ball for hours was excruciating.

Right now we're working on sitting up in bed with him when he falls asleep instead of lying down. But I think the no nursing to sleep is really the first step. You can nurse again during the night, but learning to fall asleep without nursing really cuts down on the night wakings, and once she's sleeping better at night, the naps will get a little better. hang in there!


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## TripkeHughes (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
To answer the op~people are going to do what they feel is right. For me, personally, it was never right for ds to cry alone.

I'm in agreement.

I don't think any of you are pure evil, but I am surprised that so many parents here believe it is okay for their children to CIO. Isn't this an attachment parenting board? My issues with CIO come from personal experience. In leaving a very hard relationship with a previous boy friend, I had experienced laying on my bathroom floor, in bed, kitchen table and CIO. Always ended up in an exhausted puddle sleeping. It was horrible. After that experience, I chose to never do that to anyone else again. The only time I felt okay, still bad, but better, was when I CIO in my friends arms.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

well so far I don't think anyone is saying the left there baby to sceam and wail forever and a day. It sounds to me like a lot of parents were listen to thier babies cry to interpret what they were saying which happened to be "i would rather stay up and play that sleep - I don't care if I am tired" something even adults do more often than they should and we know better.

I don't know why Lily doesn't sleep but even now she needs help. I have trouble sleeping sometimes to. the air isn't right, I am too wound up, there is too much noise, my routien has been disrupted, all sorts of reasons. I try my best to do my "off to sleep routien" in hopes that those associations will lull me off to sleep.

for lily holding rocking and talking to her only make things worse. Ava never cried to sleep. she would fuss a little as she settled in. 3-5 minutes tops. If I had never let her do this we would have continued our routien of nursing fovever and ending up over itred and over stimulated and resentful. Quite honestly i think it was more Ap to figure out what worked best for all of us and try that than to go on with what clearly wasn't working. I feel very comfortable with what I have done. I was not a good parent anywhere else when my children weren't sleeping. My first dd did fine living on the fly but the other two need absolute structure and routien when it comes to sleep. One thing out of place and they are shot. That included my nipple. I really can't parent effectively when I haven't gotten sleep and am plagued by constant thrush whcich then disrupts our nursing. It simply wasn't an acceptable way to keep a child to sleep for me. not to mention people touching me all the time makes me cranky. Getting through this and building up acceptable association was so worth it to both of us. Also nursing to sleep is a habit. There is no magic in it. They nurse until they are tired and fall asleep because that is what newborns do. eat and sleep. If you don't mind fine but eventually it is just one more thing to wean from. On the other hand newborns will generally accept being laid down to sleep and falling asleep without a nipple in there mouth. This is another reason I feel it is best to start that way. It was hard because I wanted to hold them all the time for those first few weeks but I knew I wasn't going to last and better for her if I laid her down and built in the habits I knew I would want than the ones I knew I would regret.

Ava needs to fuss at least a couple of seconds before drifting off. I would totally disturb her journey if I rushed in and took over trying to sush her. the best advice I ever recieved was to hang back and listen, really listen before I stoped thier crying. I really learned a lot about what my children needed and relized it wasn't always what the book said they needed. I also learned that it was better to meet that need than use somehting else to distract from it. Sometimes babies cry because they just need sleep.


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## mammaguess (Aug 22, 2003)

I was reading along thinking wow. I really just feel like







:
And so now I am going to try and put into words these thoughts that have been running through my head.

Do you really think (you being anyone who cares to address this) that ignoring a child's needs for a parents own desire is in the childs best interest? If being AP is about listening to what your children need and responding to it, how in the world is it more AP to let your child suffer needlessly for years from sleep deprivation rather than teach that child how to sleep? Where is it said that we have to let our babies suffer because it isn't the way we planned to parent?

Why is it considered to be mutually exclusive?

Okay now I will







: and prepare to be flamed.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

>Do you really think (you being anyone who cares to address this) that ignoring a child's needs for a parents own desire is in the childs best interest? If being AP is about listening to what your children need and responding to it, how in the world is it more AP to let your child suffer needlessly for years from sleep deprivation rather than teach that child how to sleep? Where is it said that we have to let our babies suffer because it isn't the way we planned to parent?

This is a matter of your fundamental beliefs and how they influence the way we see a situation.

It is interesting that reading your question, our fundamental beliefs are so different, I almost misunderstood the question.

>Do you really think (you being anyone who cares to address this) that ignoring a child's needs for a parents own desire is in the childs best interest?

Absolutely not. It is interesting that initially, I assumed you meant leaving a child to cry was an example of doing this, but I can see I misunderstood how you meant this. Either way, no, ignoring a child is not in their best interest.

>If being AP is about listening to what your children need and responding to it, how in the world is it more AP to let your child suffer needlessly for years from sleep deprivation rather than teach that child how to sleep?

In some ways I feel there is no answer I can give you here that will be what you want. As when someone asks "How can you NOT vaccinate?" or "How can you NOT properly discipline your child with spanking?", some questions cannot span the bridge between two extremely different philisophies.

I believe strongly in attachment parenting, and a fundamental tenant of that in my view is the belief that children cry because they need us to respond, to have human contact, to feel that sense of control in an uncertain world. If a child cries, my response *is* my indication that I am listening to their needs.

There is a judgement in saying that by ignoring a child's cries you are teaching them how to sleep. You assume the cry has no value. You also assume that a child who sleeps is automatically in a better emotional state than a child who is having a sleep disturbance. If the disturbance is a sign of an underlying emotional issue, and you are addressing that issue with focused attention to their cries, then your assumption is a bit like saying "A person who asks for help is in worse shape than a person who never asks for help". I wouldn't agree with the flavor of that argument.

>Where is it said that we have to let our babies suffer because it isn't the way we planned to parent?

I'm not sure who said that?

I am sure that you probably won't get what you want from this discussion. You can continue to feel frustrated or (not sure what that icon you used meant...yelling?) towards me. My fundamental beliefs with attachment place tremendous confidence in the power of responding to every cry, and the healing that can come from it. I'm honestly surprised I'd have to defend a decision not to find value in CIO at the Mothering website.


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## mammaguess (Aug 22, 2003)

heartmama- I have no idea where you got the idea that my ideas were directed at "you" but whatever

I will say this, if a child is sleep deprived and unable to function as a happy healthy child then whatever the parent is currently chosen as their method of sleeping ought to be looked with love and consideration for that child in their heart.

I don't believe in letting a child cry and suffer needlessly. I do think you can get to know the child's different cries and thereby with lots of listening and attention help them get the sleep they need. For each child it will be different and as long as the parent is doing whatever each individual child needs in order to recieve the proper amount of sleep that child needs to be happy and healthy I am willing to listen. Can't say that I will always like or agree but that isn't my place to decide for every other parent out there. I just pray that each parent will really care and listen to what their child needs.
Because sometimes its going to be a family bed, sometimes its not.

Being open and hearing what your child needs is what I am trying to say is the most important part.

edited because I am very tired and getting my threads mixed up


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

> I don't believe in letting a child cry and suffer needlessly. I do think you can get to know the child's different cries and thereby with lots of listening and attention help them get the sleep they need. For each child it will be different and as long as the parent is doing whatever each individual child needs in order to recieve the proper amount of sleep that child needs to be happy and healthy I am willing to listen.

As I said before, we simply see this from two radically different viewpoints.

This thread is, if nothing else, testament to the fact that a wide variety of people have babies who do not sleep how we wish them to sleep.

That in itself is almost another issue itself, because people can and often do have very rigid idea's about what consititutes adequate and/or good sleep.

Often a baby is perfectly happy as things are, and it is the parent who is unhappy. It's an important distinction in talking about sleep issues. In some cultures, a baby who is on the breast day and night is perfectly normal. It may not be acceptable for us, but our babies do not know what culture they are born into. What constitutes "normal" behaviour varies widely from one culture to another.

Secondly, when we can truly say as objectively as possible that our child is not getting enough sleep, I disagree that any method of getting the child more sleep is a good one so long as "works"~and gets the child to sleep.

As TripkeHughes pointed out, crying alone does not feel good. Having our own cries ignored would feel wrong to the majority of people posting in this thread, even if it was done by our husband "for our own good". Reflecting on that idea is the best way you could appreciate why I don't feel that ignoring a child's cry, regardless of your own personal opinion of the cry, is an acceptable judgement of a child. I suppose if you were willing to accept your loved one's choosing to ignore you, I could appreciate the continuity in your thought, if not the spirit of it.

As I said and will continue to say, people are going to do what they feel is right. I do not think that ignoring a child's crying is ever right.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

... to what i feel was the OP's original question (i haven't read through much of the thread, and am trying to avoid getting into the argument that i feel is developing here)...

we coslept for the first several months. around 4 months, we did try CIO (at the time, it was the only advice we were getting from anyone: doctors, friends, family, everyone). i couldn't bear to listen to him cry, so i'd stay in the room with him. what ended up working for us was that i'd lay him down, sing to him, then sit down next to him and read to him for as long as it took him to go to sleep. he only liked that for a little while though...

after we started doing that, honestly i realized that he preferred to sleep alone. he hadn't been really napping "well" during the day, although he'd rest next to me, and would always, without fail, fall asleep in his swing... and he had been having what i felt were sleep issues, but i wasn't sure exactly why or how to fix them. i realized that he just didn't like company or light or noise around him. he still slept at naptimes with us, but by about 6 or 7 months he absolutely refused to go to bed with us and fall asleep. he'd just lay there and fuss and fuss, toss and turn and make us all unhappy. we'd put him in the crib, give him lots of love, and leave, and within 10 minutes he was happily asleep, and he'd sleep all night.

now, he still comes in during the middle of the night for cuddles (more so lately, which i posted in another thread), but more often than not still refuses to actually *sleep* beside me. he'll nap beside me still, but during the night, he'll come and snuggle with me for however long he feels he needs to (anywhere from 15 minutes to 3 hours)... but finally he just gets up and says, "i'm going back to my room now, ok mommy?" and sleepily climbs back in his own bed, and goes right to sleep.

i think ultimately AP is about tuning in to your child's needs, and if part of that is allowing the child a few minutes to cry and then fall asleep on his/her own, then it shouldn't be labled "bad." i think it should just be called, doing what is best for that particular child.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

> i think ultimately AP is about tuning in to your child's needs, and if part of that is allowing the child a few minutes to cry and then fall asleep on his/her own, then it shouldn't be labled "bad." i think it should just be called, doing what is best for that particular child.

I don't think anyone here is a bad parent.

Your logic can be used to justify and make a good case for spanking too.

And plenty of loving parents have spanked, and feel the results justfied the means.

Like spanking, I believe the experience of crying without a response has risk. I believe that crying without a response does intrinsic harm. Because of my belief in attachment I felt it was my responsibility to find a way to introduce discipline without spanking my son. I also felt that it was my responsibility to find a way to pleasant sleep without resorting to CIO, which I believe is instrinsically unsupportive of attachment.

Perhaps what this conversation will lead to is not what constitutes good or bad parenting, but what constitutes attachment parenting. I am not afraid to go there.

For me, CIO and spanking are not a part of attachment parenting. Attachment parenting is not a seal of approval of good parenting. Good parents often do not practice attachment parenting. However, I feel firmly that only certain choices fall within the context of creating and honoring attachment. It does not help attachment theory to persuade others that it must include any choice made by a good parent. To do that robs us of the opportunity for growth and learning outside of our own perceptions.

Our society is not grounded in attachment. Most of us were not conditioned to think in terms of attachment. Most of us are surrounded by voices that decry and show no support for choices traditionally supported within ap. There is so much to overcome in learning to parent in nature with attachment. It performs a paradigm shift in the way we see issues with our children. While I think it is thrilling that attachment parenting has become a watchword in mainstream society, there is a tendency then to distort it's meaning, and to dilute the spirit from which it came. Attachment theory has so much to offer parents. It is a haven from the voice of detachment that we find everywhere else in society. I hope that never changes.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I find myself in agreement with alot of what heartmama is saying. I come from a fundamentally different set of ideas than I think other people do (not necessarily other people here) based on what I perceive to be the nature of infants.

It is unquestionable to me that infants have evolved to be within close physical contact with another human for most, if not all, of their time when very young. I know of no other primate species that separates itself physically from a newborn. And then there are James McKenna's studies showing that the presence of an adult at night regulates breathing, heart rate, and sleep cycles. That is powerful evidence, IMO, that the need to be close is more than just emotional. Which isn't to say that there aren't exceptions, and the parent who respects their child's need for space is as AP as the one who cosleeps, IMO. But overall, I think the majority of babies want and need to be close to an adult at night.

People here have mentioned chronic sleep deprivation. I've heard enough stories here to believe it is a real thing, and that it does very much affect the disposition and well-being of the child. However, I draw a big distinction between this and "sleep problems" (of the sort that 33% of North American infants are "diagnosed" with, often leading to recommendations that CIO be done). See, the problem with deciding what constitutes a "sleep problem" is that you must have some idea what "normal" is. And I just don't think an isolated, crib-sleeping infant (especially a formula-fed one, who can stand longer periods without eating) represents a "normal, natural" infant. A normal infant is one who is in the environment in which he evolved. McKenna's work has shown that it is normal for infants to wake regularly, that their sleep patterns are NOT that of adult's (eg. they have no stage 4 sleep level), and therefore adult expectations of sleeping through the night should not and do not apply. Add to that a tiny stomach that is designed for breastmilk, and you have a baby who SHOULD be eating regularly, even through the night.

So, I really have to question the safety of using methods that promote such lengthy and adult-like sleep patterns in babies. It seems to go without saying that a young babe who sleeps 10 hours without waking is a blessing, or the proud end-point of a course of sleep-training. But I have to be honest with you - that scares me. I don't think it's normal and I don't think it's safe (just my own personal feeling, if it doesn't bother you, it doesn't bother you). When I think about what the role of a cosleeping adult is in terms of infant physiology (regulating breathing, heart rate, and sleeping) that speaks to deep neurological functions (autonomic functions) that can spell the difference between life and death. The mere fact that babies are not capable of the sort of self-regulation that adults are, and that a cosleeping adult brings to the child, tells me that for most infants, having them sleep so deeply and in isolation is dangerous. I think the studies of SIDS in cribsleeping versus cosleeping infants are also starting to bear this out.

The other point I'd like to address is WHY does CIO work? It's one thing to hear a child fussing for a few minutes before drifting off to sleep. It's another to allow prolonged periods of crying (and I don't really see any difference between patting on the back or not coming in at all, since the child's need - to be picked up - is ultimately not being met either way) until the child falls asleep in exhaustion.

Crying is stressful. It releases stress hormones into the bloodstream, like cortisol - an immunosuppressent. It elevates core body temperature, elevates heart rate and blood pressure. It interferes with respiration, and can cause elevated carbon dioxide levels in the blood. It seems no wonder to me, then, that crying for a few minutes is a great way to become exhausted to the point of falling asleep. As another person said, I've done this as an adult and I know it works.

Studies have shown that children who are responded to promptly actually DIMINISH in their response to future crying. In other words, when the do cry, the physical effects are less - less stress hormone release, less body temperature elevation, etc. I find this fascinating. Because the babies who were left to cry showed no such adaptation. What does this say about the benefits of responding to cries?

Then there is the question of why CIO works in the longer term (ie. the babe doesn't need to cry itself into exhaustion after a few days or weeks - they just go to sleep when you put them down). I think adaptation plays a role. In newborns, crying is usually a distress signal, no different than a newborn kitten who is removed from his litter, or a baby bird who falls from the nest. I think, as such, it creates a state of physical and emotional distress in an infant. I wonder if another reason that CIO works is because a distress signal that is not responded to eventually becomes a liability. An infant who is alone and at risk may benefit from eventually becoming quiet, rather than continue with an unresponded-to distress call that may attract predators. Not to mention, distress cries place a burden on the baby's body and energy, and adapting may be a way of conserving energy. So I also feel that CIO works by sending the message "don't bother crying, nobody will respond".

Again, this post isn't meant to judge or criticize anybody. These are just the viewpoints *I* am coming from, to illustrate why, for ME, doing "classic" CIO on a young baby is just not an option. I certainly don't expect everyone else to share the same beliefs. But I wanted to put them out there as something to consider.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
While I think it is thrilling that attachment parenting has become a watchword in mainstream society, there is a tendency then to distort it's meaning, and to dilute the spirit from which it came. Attachment theory has so much to offer parents. It is a haven from the voice of detachment that we find everywhere else in society. I hope that never changes.

Excellent post, heartmama. I really liked what you said here. You voiced an opinion shared by many, yet in a way that I felt was truly devoid of the judgement and self-righteousness that sometimes comes across when we discuss "attachment".

I hope this discussion can continue with the respect it has held thus far.


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## Chanley (Nov 19, 2001)

Excellent post heartmama!!

For me, CIO is never an option. My youngest is a very outgoing little man. He is so passionate about what he does and does it with a LOT of enthusiasm. Often this will make him overtired and very cranky. When he gets cranky,he is just as passionate about it as he is exploring his world.

he is always offered the breast to sleep. Sometimes he does not want to nurse. he will squirm and fuss for a minute but it is ALWAYS within the safe confines of my arms.

I suppose you could say that I am "cry training" my babies. When they cry, I come. When they cry, I pick them up and hold them. I want it to be deeply engrained in thier minds that when they cry out, thier mother or father is ready to put thier arms around them.

I have made many sacrifices for my children and often, that means putting aside what I want. There are moments that I would rather be finishing my chores so I could relax for the evening, instead, I am trying to console a fussy baby who needs to sleep. But as I look at my 3.5 year old, I see just how short this time is. It seems like only yesterday that she was an infant screaming for hours with colic. I held her through every tear she cried. I refused to put her down to CIO even though she literally screamed from 6pm till about 11pm EVERY night nonstop. Sometimes it would start again early in the morning.

These small sacrifices are made and I take pride knowing that I am instilling in her the deep seated knowledge that when she cries, she will be attended by those who love her. Nobody wants to cry alone.

This is my gift to my children.


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

Gosh - I thought this thread was going good until now..... (oh and by 'you' I mean whoever feel they want to respond)

I am a not really sure why there is this idea in people's heads that there is only one 'good and right' way to parent a child. Just the idea is ridiculous since every child is different. I do believe in the "AP" philosophy, but feel it is more in your attitude towards your children then some set of rules on how you must parent.

CIO - just the term can make many people cringe, myself included, because it can mean the worst of situations for a baby. But the truth is - it doesn't always mean that - as many posts on this thread have shown.

Why is it so hard to believe that sometimes a child/baby needs to let off some steam before falling to sleep? Are 'you' so clouded by your own 'ideal' way's that you can't hear what these mothers are saying? They have listened to their children and have understood what *they needed* to get to sleep! Why is this so different from the mother who understands that their child needs closeness to sleep and brings them in their bed? Are they both not listening and meeting their children's needs? Haven't 'you' ever needed time to just vent and let our your emotions before you could calm down? And don't you HATE when people interrupt you during that time and try and tell you that everything is fine and they will 'fit' it - I know *I* do&#8230;&#8230;.

Both of my children and different points in their babyhood/toddlerhood have *NEEDED* to let off steam and fuss and cry a bit before going to sleep. And they needed to do it ALONE! The more we tried to comfort them, the more then cried and fussed, the longer it took them to go to sleep, and the more sleep deprived they were the next day, and the more frustrated and resentful we were as parents. Believe me, letting them cry was not about *me* and what *I* wanted! I wanted to cuddle and rock them to sleep in my arms - but they DID NOT WANT THAT! What else is a parent supposed to believe when the only way their child will fall asleep is when you tuck them in alone and they fuss away their stress and fall asleep? And just for the record I am/was a co-sleeping from birth, nursing to sleep mom&#8230;..it wasn't me who made these changes!

I mean seriously, why is it that when someone suggests that, although they believe in AP their child is showing signs of need to be parented outside of the 'ap rules', they are automatically doing their child a disservice&#8230;.that if they just tried hard enough they could 'make' their child conform to the AP ideals&#8230;&#8230;.I am just sick of it!


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I just wanted to clarify a fewe things I have said because I slept really well last night and can think more clearly now. I love it when dh has a day off.









I think there are a lot of possible solutions other than full fledge CIO. They are hard work, they often force us to do things we would rather not do like live by a schedule and be home for naps and eat and regular times. Those things aren't very cool things especially in AP circles but if yoiu aren't willing to try those things first you can't really complain about your babies sleep problems. You would be amazed at how much a routien and schedule can help a baby sleep better. That was my first line of defense beofor letting Lily cry. I also want to point out she was 2 before we did that. And it didn't solve everything. It did push over that final hump of her being able to fall asleep by herself and learn that bedtime means bedtime and whining wasn't going to change that. And she was crying because she was mad and indignant at being told it was bed time. she gets mad and cries over other things almost all day and I don't feel guilty about those. why should I feel guilty about bed time? It didn't magicaly mean she slept perfectly either. It is still a struggle everyday to see to it that she gets the sleep she needs. I think allowing your child to cry for an extended period of time should only be done as a very last resort and still as gently as possible. BUt I do think that full on ferber may be nessecary in some situations. I would hate to think it got that bad before someone did something but if you have been neglectingyour childs sleep for so long that you have to do that CIO is the lest of the things you have to feel guilty for. At least now you are trying to get them back on track and get things streightened out.

I also think there is a big difference between letting a baby fuss and letting them cry and scream. If your baby is fussing and whining and you pick them up and they start screaming it would be wrong to not put them back and let them work it out. Sometimes I cry because I am just tired and disfunctional. Sometimes I cry because I just want to be left alone after a long day of being touched and talked to and harrassed. Sometimes because I am so tired that I am too wound up about going to sleep to actually get to sleep (it is a cruel cruel world) Some babies are I am sure the same way.

Sleep deprivation is very real. And in a cruel twist of irony it really can effect a childs ability to sleep for no other reason than they are too tired to sleep. It can make them sick which will effect thier sleep, it can effect thier coordination and thought processes leading to injuries which can effect thier sleep. they can cause thier parents to be crabby and distant which will effect thier ability to help them get the sleep they need. It is a vicious ugly cycle. I don't think is just important for babies. I think Americans as a whole have unhealthy attitudes towards sleep, refuse to do the things they need to get sleep, constantly use drugs to either help them sleep, help them stay awake or both and that many many Americans, in every age group, are chronically overtired. I think since these things seem so normal to us it is often hard to see how lack of good quality sleep is hurting our child. They just seem normal. I know we just thought Lily had a crabby, clumsy personality with a low immune system. too bad for us. when that couldn't have been further from the truth. She just didn't sleep as easily as he sister did.

You can co-sleep and even nurse to sleep and still see to it that your child will get the rest they need. But regardless of where your child is sleeping you need to be aware of thier sleeping habits, at least mentally keeping track of how much sleep they are getting and change things and shape thier habit where nessecary.

Also I hear a lot of talk of "if it is not working for you then you need to adjust your attitude, whatever is good for the baby". I would rather give my children a happy capable mother than a tear free life. And if that means we have to shed a few tears to break out of a bad sleeping rut then so be it. I don't se how this can harm a child more than being the resented thorn in its mothers side. Or literallyh aving a mother who is too sick and tired to parent. We can still be perfectly attatched and do what is good for everyone as gently as is possible in each situation. To me being a good parent is better than being the poster child for AP.

And no you don't have to be Ap to be a good parent and i have seen plenty of people who do everything AP that I would describe as bad parents. but that is why I hate lables.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Graceoc - thank you. you hit the nail right on the head for me. that is what I have been trying to say just a lot less consisely


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:

Like spanking, I believe the experience of crying without a response has risk. I believe that crying without a response does intrinsic harm.

but:

Quote:

Both of my children and different points in their babyhood/toddlerhood have *NEEDED* to let off steam and fuss and cry a bit before going to sleep. And they needed to do it ALONE! The more we tried to comfort them, the more then cried and fussed, the longer it took them to go to sleep, and the more sleep deprived they were the next day, and the more frustrated and resentful we were as parents.










thank you. some babies need some time alone. for my son it was only a few minutes of fussing and crying, and then he'd fall right asleep and was a much happier child.


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## Chanley (Nov 19, 2001)

Am I the only one thinking that there are some semantical problems with some of the confusion???

After reading lilyka's post I am thinking that the term CIO is a very broad one and that is where some of the disagreement comes from.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I think to some extent you are right. but also tghe impression I goit from the AP books I read as a new mom was that if I ever let my baby so much as whimper I was doing them unrepreble harm. And I still think a lot of people the measure of a good paretn is hoiw little your baby cries. And i agree it is hard to listen to them be sad even for a moment but sadness and frustration and anger are a part of life and i feel that is OK to let our children feel these things when they are appropriate. If my child is angry and frustrated because i put them to bed when they would rather party the night away so be it. They are entitled. But that doesn't change the fact that I can objectively see thier need for sleep and know how one of night can throw a small child off. (night is thrown off so tomarrows naps are thrown off so thier bed time is thrown off so thier naps are off so bedtime is more off, overtiredness sets in . . . . . ) but they can't see this. It is hard for nayont to see this in themselves unless they have made a descion to do what they know is best in the long run. I also feel when you have allowed your baby to get into such a funk that they can't pull themselves out that you have to do things you didn't want to do.

For example. Teeth brushing. My children don't like to brush thier teeth. and I am not particularly inclined ot brush them for them. for some reason the battle seems like a big ol' PITA to me, our bathroom won't fit tweo people so it means me holding them down in the hall way and allowing them to spit on me (thier natural inclination when I am holding them down with a brush in thier mouth so it isn't like I even have to give them the oppritunity) and the carpet (the only carpet in the house ) but if I were to let it go I would be forced to subject them to filled cavities, novicane shots (can the drill really hurt more than that?), root canals. dentures and more. I wouldn't subject my child to that kind of dental work unless I absolutely had to and no would fault me for making them get thier rotten teeth cared for. However hoiw much better would it have been to see to it that it never got that bad. no matter how much I hated the brushing routien and schedule. DO you see the connection. I have a tendancy to go to far with annalogies.sory if I have. My point was, letting your baby cry it out, real cry it out, the big break of all bad sleep habits, ripping a big nasty bandaid off really quick, really is only acceptable if things have gotten very very bad and all other avenues of hope have been exhausted and your child is old enough where they are not likely to grow out of it or sick enough from sleep deprivation that you cannot wait any longer but if things have gooten that bad you really have to do what they have to do. yOu shouldn't have let them get that bad but hind sight is 20/20 remember these lessons for the furture. But okease please try everything else first.

And I don't think letting a baby fuss is the same as CIO. AND if you have to let your baby cry for 20-60 minutes every time youput them down THIS IS NOT WORKING. I have never read proponant of CIO say that this sort of srying was supoosed to continue for months and months. I read someonewhere else (not here!) that this lady lets her baby cry fr 45 minutes at the beginning of every nap and bed time. listen lady your system isn't working. try somehting else. get a clue. SO that is most certainly not what I am talking about either. Ava fusses to sleep often but when I say I mean I go to brush my teeth and she is done before i spit and swish.

So yeah I think definition has a lot to with it but I also think there are people who think allowing your baby to cry for any amount of time, even long enough to hear what thier need is is cruel and devistating to the baby. I don't think so at all.


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## TripkeHughes (Nov 19, 2001)

As heartmama said, there is a difference between AP and good parent. They can mean the same thing but at the same time, a person can be ap and a bad parent and vis versa.

Does anyone have a definition of AP? Does mothering have a definition on the site?


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## Chanley (Nov 19, 2001)

Lilyka,

I think you are right.

I am in a group with a hardcore ezzo'er. I really like this woman but I detest her parenting philosophy. She does not push it on anyone and as a person, I really like her. She is a good mom, she ezzo's because she believes that is what she SHOULD do to be a good Christian mother.

I completely disagree with her on SO many levels. But my view is "hey, glad she is not my mom!" I dont argue and always offer a counter view to a new mom when she talks about what she did.

Point being...my view of CIO is to make sure baby is fed, dry and all other needs are taken care of, then leave in room in crib to cry it out until they go to sleep.

My in-laws and father believe that babies need to cry. Drives me freakin looney! My children do NOT need to excercise thier lungs, they breathe ALL of the time and that is plenty of excercise. My newborn is treated VERY differently than my two year old. When my newborn cries, I am there. No questions about it. A newborn has NO concept of time and they are completely incapable of self consoling. Not very long ago, they were part of my own body, they are NOT independant of me. I am responsible for their entire care, including emotional.

As my children get older, I respond differently. When my daughter was 2, i had little control over her physical actions, I just had to provide a safe place for her. Did we CIO, no but she did not go bed at times w/o crying. And yes, she was letting off steam. She and her daddy were getting ready for the new baby so he started putting her to sleep. They would close the door to the bedroom. She could not open it herself. They would read 2 books and the lights were out. She would get up, scream and holler. But he was ALWAYS there for her. IF she needed his arms, he was there and she could go to him. She was safe and within the boundaries of the bedroom walls. She would calm down and go to bed. This is NOT CIO in my book. This is letting them rage as needed and giving them boundaries in which to explore anger, frustration and venting. BUT WE ARE ALWAYS AVAILABLE.

I think the availability is the factor. Until my children are old enough to come to me themselves when they need me, I go to them when they cry. Period. I make sure that they have access to me when they cry. I dont care if they are just across the bed from me. I can respect the need for space but I will always be nearby my kids.

To me, that is the difference between AP:knowing your kids and the alternate CIO.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

lilyka - i really liked your post, especially the second-to-last one.

I learned alot about sleep deprivation from you and other mamas here who have dealt with it. I do think it is a "real" problem and I do think it may require a diversion from the standard parenting-to-sleep guidlelines that most of us here follow without ill effects. I can also understand why, having gone through it with one child, you would be more inclined to "start early" with the next. I don't really agree with this (seems to me along the lines of well, might as well wean them early when they don't know any better than waiting until they are older), but it's hard to argue with someone who has been through that, kwim? Especially when I haven't!

And I, too, think there are some semantics issues here. Graceoc - I don't know to whom your post was directed (if anybody here) but I sure wasn't picking up on any "I'm right, you're wrong" vibes. I'm hearing people who approach the issue from different POV and different assumptions about what constitutes "normal" sleep, what constitutes a "sleep habit", etc. but I feel as though everybody is being respectful.

From what I understand of the posts here, the only person who *I* think does CIO the way I've always thought of it is Midwesternmama (and I'm not attaching any judgement to this at all, she's just the only example here I have). I think CIO is not just leave-them-to-cry, but also includes "controlled crying" where you go in at periods and touch, pat the baby but do not pick him/her up. I certainly don't consider letting a child fuss for a few minutes to be CIO, especially if the child is more content that way. And again, I'm hardly the person to define anything, I'm just giving one example of how each of us defines it a bit differently.

I also think there's a HUGE distinction between crying in a toddler versus a young infant. As lilyka said of her 2 year old DD (and the same applies to mine) they deal with disappointments every day, and are learning to process their emotions, which usually involves some crying. This is a very different sort of cry from an infant left in isolation, or that has a need to be nursed/held/picked up that is not being responded to. What I described doing with my DD in earlier posts was no different than what I do when she asks for something she can't have at the moment. She's old enough to understand and to cope with that, otherwise I would not do it.

Anyways, I think this thread has been, and is going, very well. I really do enjoy hearing from the self-professed "CIO" mamas b/c I do think it's important to understand that there are distinctions.

My only concern is sort of what heartmama touched on. That this is an AP board and people come here and lurk to see what AP is all about. I would not want it to seem that AP advocates CIO, and yet I also think it's important to see that the definition of that can vary from one person to the next, and mostly that everybody here, whether they do AP or not, is trying to do the best for their child. I think we can, and should strive to, have frank discussions about what is AP and what isn't, without attaching judgement to that.

I really liked heartmama's statement that not every AP parent is "good" and not every non-AP parent is "bad", but that AP itself does have certain core values and assumptions that may not fit everybody's unique situation. I don't think saying "CIO is not AP" automatically puts a "good or bad" label on a person.


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## sagewinna (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chanley*
I think the availability is the factor. Until my children are old enough to come to me themselves when they need me, I go to them when they cry. Period. I make sure that they have access to me when they cry. I dont care if they are just across the bed from me. I can respect the need for space but I will always be nearby my kids.

To me, that is the difference between AP:knowing your kids and the alternate CIO.


Chanley, you are so right on!!


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

For me, seeing a distinction between CIO and "leaving a baby to fuss for a few minutes" elicits much the same feeling I have when people insist on drawing a distinction between "a tap on the hand and spanking with a belt".

Yes, there is a qualitative difference. One is less extreme than the other.

But they both come from the same fundamental view of what "children need".

A baby has no control, and I do not ever feel comfortable controlling whether they get a response from me.

I believe that finding value in the withholding of a response, whether for 5 mintues or an hour, is fundamentally at odds with attachment.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

graceoc wrote: Why is it so hard to believe that sometimes a child/baby needs to let off some steam before falling to sleep?

Well, I would not like to be left in a crib and ignored, even for five minutes, while I cried. That is one of many reasons why I find it hard to believe that a baby "needs" that kind of experience any more than I do. I have others, but that one makes my point for now.

>Are 'you' so clouded by your own 'ideal' way's that you can't hear what these mothers are saying?

I hear what they are saying. I do not agree with the choice they made, but I hear it.

Have you really heard what those who are opposed to withholding a response are saying?

There is no reason to get defensive or feel offended. I don't expect that many participating in this thread will actually change their minds, and I don't see anyone being attacked either.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:

Have you really heard what those who are opposed to withholding a response are saying?
i've heard them and understand them well, but i think some people need to realize that if a parent sees that the constant response is the problem, then they are doing the child only a disservice by continuing to give constant responses to the child. in my experience, doing what is best for my son and consistently listening to his own personal needs, and fulfilling them, has formed a very secure attachment between us. i don't have a problem calling myself an AP mama and still admitting that yes, we did let him cry at times, because of this.

i can see no true parallel between this issue (leaving a child alone for a few minutes because that's what they personally need), and saying it's ok to spank because that's what a child "needs." it's two completely different things.

i don't feel attacked, personally; i just wish people would try harder to see all sides of an issue.

and, to someone who said maybe the semantics are the problem here ~ i agree. i think "CIO" as a term sounds like an evil thing, because many parents just leave their babies to cry and cry for a half hour or more, use ear plugs, whatever, just to do what's best for the parent... whereas what i'm reading here is that the parents who have used it *here* have only done it for a few minutes at a stretch, and stayed responsive, and realized that their children fared better with no stimulation for that time, than if they had kept being held, cuddled, rocked, soothed, whatever. _some babies are extremely sensitive to constant stimulation_ and literally can't handle continuing to be "responded" to. there is a big difference between the shrieking, terrified wails of an infant who truly needs to be held / attended to (changed, fed, whatever), and the weak cries and fusses of a baby who is overly tired and needs a few minutes to themself, and a responsive, attached mama will know the difference between the two.

ultimately, i think it's selfish to ignore what a particular child may need just to stick to a set of principles or a label.


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## sagewinna (Nov 19, 2001)

I didn't see where the OP was asking only for support/ hugs, so we should all be able to express our feelings, pro and con!

The comment about being selfish feels very inflammatory to me...


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

i apologize if it seemed that way; i was simply voicing my honest opinion that if a parent ignores what their own child needs simply to stick to a predesigned label, that's not in their child's best interest -- they are being selfish.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

You would think there would be nothing left for me to say but my dh is working 20 hour days so I will make up stuff if I havejust as an excuse to chat with other adults (just kidding baout the making up stuff paret, I would start another thread for that:LOL)

Anywho, I wanted add also that when we "went down a different path" with ava we didn't have to let her sit crying. We started with many ideas from the NCSS and the reason we did that is because we didn't want to fight this again. we didn't want to get to the point where CIO was our last resort option. And we started out with an experimental attitude. "well Ok we will try this and see if it changes things but if not no harm done" And I have to admit we were pretty slack. She was also quickly showing signs of haveing the same sleep isssues Lily did. So one day she was hanging out having tummy time, happy as could be and I got about elbow deeop in sticky bread dough and couldn't get to her until I got it off. so I said soothing things while I picked and peeled and washed and before I got to her she was sound asleep and slept for 3 blissful hours (as opposed to her standard 20 minutes) and woke up refreshed and cheery (to the smell of fresh made bread thank you very much. ) and si we thought "hmmm, lets go with this" and we did and then we slacked and then we started again when things got unbearable. al we really had to do the second time was be consistant. I canceled some things that happened during nap time and it was hard but we needed that consistancy. Shortly after that we completly nightweaned. Since she had never been dependant on nursing to get to sleep it all went really smoothly.

I don't think it is the same as saying "well, might as well wean them early when they don't know any better than waiting until they are older." Nursing is somehting thay need. Absolutely need. Nursing to sleep is not. Falling asleep in moms arms is not. Sure it is fun. Sure it is nice to snuggle but for most babies , they will develope and cling to whatever sleep habits they get those first few weeks.

One way or another what ever you while putting your baby to sleep is developing a habit. I guess it is up to you whether you consider that habit good or bad. Lily got seriously imprinted., that is just the way she is a stubbor to boot so it was to the point that after we moved, I would rock her to sleep and take her to our room. In our old house we turned left. she would start screaming when I turned right in our new house. Not once. Not one time ever did I take her from our living room to our bedroom with out waking her up. i could take her to madelines room (yeah left) but then Madeline would pull her out of bed and scream "not for baby!!!!!" any wonder how she ended up with sleep issues :LOL Her habit of feeling her self being picked up and turn left wasn't a bad habit (until we moved







) but it was her habit. Humans are creatures of habit, some more than others. SHe probably gets her intense nbeed for routien from me. I hnever even noticed how habitual I was until I had her and our habits clashed. I thought I was totally spontaneous. Not so. Anyway moy point is, if it works for you and all the other children in your house then great. DOn't change it. But if your baby is suffering and you are suffering and the rest of the family is suffering then something has to be changed. Do it as gently as you can but do whatever you have to do to get things in order. And if you can prevent these sort of problems then by al means don't be afraid to try.


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## newmainer (Dec 30, 2003)

I really appreciate this thread... its an interesting discussion and has got me thinking.

One thing that comes to my mind that i haven't seen mentioned is the fact that every baby is an individual, and every baby is different. I know that this is pretty obvious, but i think its easy to forget- I know I do at times. Things that work for my dd may not work for another. I trust that those mamas who needed to try a modified CIO (or however you would like to call it) did something that worked for their child. What works for my daughter is not to leave her. She does cry to sleep in her dads arms occasionally. She sometimes cries to sleep in my arms when she's biting my nipple and nursing is not an option. If I had a different child, I might have had to do things differently. I think its easier to have a blanket "no xyz" or "always xyz" approach when xyz has or has not worked for your child. We think, "How could you do that?" because we never had to. This is not to say that there isn't value in adhering to a particular approach- like ap- and allowing it to guide your parenting. I am incredibly grateful to parent-friends who are AP and were models for me while i was pregnant and in the early days of parenting.

But i think its a bit presumptuous to assume that a strict, traditional AP approach will work for every child- I have read many posts from mamas who wanted to wear their babies, but their babies hated it. I believe the mamas who have posted here that their dc wanted to sleep alone. While I appreciate upholding the integrity of the term 'attachment' i personally can't presume to know what each mama's individual child's needs are. It seems that this is a recurring theme in many threads, when listening to your child and responding to his or her needs presents an approach that is not considered tried-and-true AP, and yet, isnt AP all about listening and responding to your child?

I also have a hard time drawing a parallel to the type of CIO that has been posted here (after many, many other options were tried, and then not even doing the full CIO), and spanking. Sleeping is a biological need. Discipline- which I guess would be the corollary- is not. It's necessary in life but not a biological necessity in the sense that sleep is. I wonder if others have thoughts on this.

-Kelly


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

klothos raises a good point.

If a baby sleeps better and is more content sleeping alone, then is it AP to continue with cosleeping? For whose benefit is it being done?

If a baby left to fuss, does so for a minute or two and then drifts off to sleep, is this not better than trying to hold/nurse/rock the baby when that only makes the fussing escalate to crying, and gets the child too agitated to sleep? If picking up the child makes him wail harder, that is apparently not what he needs, right?

I have had no experience with either type of baby, but I have heard enough mamas here talk about it that I believe it does happen. Not the norm, perhaps, but it does. My feeling is that a "non AP" parent decides _a priori_ that cribsleeping is the only option and forces it to work no matter what, whereas the AP parent offers the most natural and logical choice first (cosleeping) but if baby doesn't like it then they must do what baby needs.

I guess where the problem lies is how it is determined that this is what baby "needs". Sometimes I wonder if the exhaustion and fatigue of the parent doesn't somehow cloud their judgement, or if maybe they are just starting out with a false set of assumptions (and I'm not talking about anybody here, just in general). On the other hand, biological variability is real and significant, and while understanding the environment in which babies evolved helps to determine what MOST babies will need, there will always be exceptions. I guess one problem with defining what is AP is finding an objective measure of it. Everybody thinks they are "attached", and everybody thinks they are "doing what's best for the child". How can we decide? What is the ultimate "ruler" by which we determine these things?


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Aww . . .this thread really touches me!

We've had so many sleep issues with DD . . .she actually slept through the night at age 4 months, but by 6 months, was waking every 20-60 minutes. I was going crazy, esp. since I did most daytime _and_ all the nighttime parenting. We never did CIO (well, I did leave her to cry while I regained my composure and released anger elsewhere sometimes), but geeze . . .I can certainly understand why some people choose to.

We are planning to TTC, and I am absolutely *TERRIFIED* of the sleep issue with baby #2. I read _The No Cry Sleep Solution_ (but, too late-- DD was 1 yr. old and had her habits firmly established) and I am certainly willing to try that with #2 from the beginning.

Things are OK now . . .we have to be very careful with DD's schedule/routine, and I nightweaned her at about 20 months. My main concern was that I be able to sleep, and now I can. DD still wakes up and comes to bed with us, but she doesn't play, she doesn't nurse then (I simply cannot sleep through a nursing session), she just SLEEPS. It took way too long to get to this point . . .sleep was the issue that DH and I fought about more than anything, and everything was worse since we were sleep deprived!

Just wanted to add-- Kelly, I LOVED your post!


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## aguacates (Sep 17, 2003)

This thread has been really interesting. I do agree that this is somewhat of an issue of semantics. And to me, personally, I would agree with Chanley, that the issue of CIO is one of availablility. I strongly believe in crying-in-arms. I think that babies, and often older kids too, need to process their emotions and their only way to process is often crying. And that this crying does precede good sleep, but to me, it is important that my dd knows that I will be with her while she cries.

I also think that fussing is different than crying. Zoe fusses all day long at little things, she is not able to get at my cup of coffee (albeit decaf), or I've moved some paper product (library book) out of her reach. I let her fuss and process her frustration while being near. I don't try to fix her frustration.

In the past, before she was mobile, I might let her fuss for a minute when going to sleep, if I knew that she was really tired and my presence was only stimulating, but when it lasted more than a minute, I would go in there and go through to night time routine again. And when I got nursed out and at the end of my rope, I would send dp in. If I was a single parent or my dp was unavailable, I don't know what choices I would have made. I think that people generally try to make the right choice for their family. And I agree with newmainer (Hi Kelly!) that all children are different, and that different things work for different families.

And now, when she cries harder when I hold her when putting her to bed, I mostly feel like she needs to process something, and is doing it the only way she knows how, as she is non-verbal. And she usually goes to sleep pretty quickly after she cries. But that is my child, and I have no real experience with other children.


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## Sleepymama (Oct 9, 2003)

Piglet I totally agree. AP is listening to your baby's needs, and if your instinct is telling you that whatever you're doing isn't working, then you have to change things. I think sometimes AP parents stick too closely to "AP rules" like cosleeping without really being in tune to the baby's needs. I think cosleeping at all costs is almost as bad as crib sleeping at all costs, like many "mainstream" parents do. I think you have to consider all options, and sometimes "controlled crying" or the more gentle approach to CIO, rather "fuss it out", works for some older babies. It never worked for my DS, but some other things did.

The chronic sleep deprivation is very real, not just for adults! When the baby is never EVER happy, even when awake and held, something is wrong. Once other medical causes have been ruled out, the most likely answer is sleep. But it's a hard thing to fix, and sometimes only time will help. I really think it was a combination of time, maturity, lessening separation anxiety, and the gentle NCSS things we did that helped DS. I don't think anything in the universe would have helped him sleep better before he was ready. Not for our lack of trying though! It wasn't until he was sleeping better that I saw a huge change in his personality. He was so much less clingy, and way more happy. Fewer tantrums.

I am going to play it by ear with the next one which we will TTC this summer...I have an amby baby hammock which I intend to use for naps, and perhaps for part of the night from the beginning so he/she learns to fall asleep in it early on. I think, no matter what, learning a variety of ways to fall asleep from the beginning is really essential. Dr. Sears recommends this in the HNB book. Mom and dad should both be able to get baby to sleep in different ways. I think nursing to sleep 100% of the time can lead to sleep "problems" (the waking every half hour to nurse kind of problems) later, in some HN types. I'm not saying nursing to sleep is wrong, just that babies should learn several ways of falling asleep. This makes it easy on everyone, mom especially. I'm not saying impose sleep training on a newborn, just experiment to find other ways that work while respecting what the baby needs.

I am terrified of having another HNB though...it was hard enough with an only child, but a HNB and HN toddler will definitely knock some years off my life expectancy.


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## Midwesternmomma (Nov 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
From what I understand of the posts here, the only person who *I* think does CIO the way I've always thought of it is Midwesternmama (and I'm not attaching any judgement to this at all, she's just the only example here I have). I think CIO is not just leave-them-to-cry, but also includes "controlled crying" where you go in at periods and touch, pat the baby but do not pick him/her up. .

When did I say that I didn't pick him up? I did... many times. I don't have a problem with you thinking that I "do" CIO, I don't feel that the method we use and hard core CIO are the same... at all.... but, hey, you weren't there so you don't know. And, you didn't know my baby, now turned huge big-boy, and you don't know that picking him up was what I wanted EVERY SINGLE TIME... but almost never what he needed.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
I certainly don't consider letting a child fuss for a few minutes to be CIO, especially if the child is more content that way..

Funny... I feel the same way....

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
And again, I'm hardly the person to define anything, I'm just giving one example of how each of us defines it a bit differently.

Yes, we all DO define it differently. And yet, I have ABSOLUTELY no problem identifing myself as AP. My definition may be drastically different from yours, but in the end I responded to my sons cues as well as anyone could have in the situation that presented itself.

In general, I think that this board has had some trouble and many, many threads about how to define AP and what kinds of things can you do, or not do, and still be in the club. I am feeling twinges of high-school clique that you have to wear pegged jeans and have big hair to be a part of...









I offer the best information I have to the OP, and hope that if she is in desperate need of a solution that includes more sleep and thinks that her baby would do better if left un-touched for a while... that she will not consider herself to be a "bad mommy" if she chooses to put her baby in a crib (OR some other baby-safe environment) and see if, given a little time, that is what baby really needed. Only the OP knows her baby and her situation... all we can do is offer what we suggest and hopefully try to respect that there are few who come to these boards who do not have their children't best interests at heart, and none should be made to feel differently.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius*
We are planning to TTC, and I am absolutely *TERRIFIED* of the sleep issue with baby #2. I read _The No Cry Sleep Solution_ (but, too late-- DD was 1 yr. old and had her habits firmly established) and I am certainly willing to try that with #2 from the beginning!










I can so relate to how you feel. That is exactly how I felt. Actually we were seriously pretty much decided against having any more because of it. I couldn't let myself be that kind of mother, that kind of person again. we were the grouchiest family on the planet :LOL Fortunately God had other plans and this has by far been the most rewarding baby to parent, the sweetest happies child I have ever met and things from birth on couldn't have gone more smoothly. Let me tell you though. I couldn't even get a little bit excited about the pregnancy until we had lIlykas sleep problems under countrol and she weaned (both happened simutaneously. I think it was once she was done nursing I could really throw myself into the whole sleep issues because i had one less thing draining me. She had long since been night weaned so that wasn't an issue. ) I really think doing the stuff in the NCSS realy really helped get us off to a good start. Also being open to stomach sleeping helped a ton too. I t hink if we had put Lily on her tummy to sleep she would have done much better early on. Don't nessecarily be closed off to any solutions that might work. You have to weigh the pros and cons for everything. Several month after Ava was born she was diagnosed with a birth defect and turned out the best thing we could have done for her was put her to sleep on her tummy. Go figure. it all worked out and my guilt at letting her tummy sleep was lessened. I htink the biggest step for me was putting her down awake. I always assumed a baby would balk at this but she took to it as if that is just how it was supposed ot be. having that skill helped us easily recover from any bumps in the road. Also babies can p[ick up on our tension. I htink having a plan can give us reassuance that things won't be as bad as last time which can cause us to be calm and secure which can make our baby feel calm and secure which can help them sleep. I know that sounds silly but it helped me know that I was doing the right thing.

Good luck trying to cocieve and may this child be so easy that it more than balances out your other one







People always commit on what a happy baby Ava is. I just tell them I was due.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

>i apologize if it seemed that way; i was simply voicing my honest opinion that if a parent ignores what their own child needs simply to stick to a predesigned label, that's not in their child's best interest -- they are being selfish.

I see parents insisting that their baby "needs" something that is as much speculation and a reflection of the parent's own labels and theories as anything I have said about attachment parenting.

Some parents have said the baby needs to fall asleep away from the breast. Some that the baby needs to sleep for a certain number of hours.

Often, it is more accurately about what the parent needs from the baby. The parents want the baby to sleep longer, on a schedule, not at the breast, without thrashing in their sleep etc.

These are good examples of how our beliefs affect our parenting. I completely agree that I have beliefs which guide me as well! If that is selfish, I guess we are all in that boat together









I believe that to ignore a persons cry is an act of detachment. Many people value the power of "detachment". There *is* power in it. Our society begs us to detach, pushes us to detach, to such a degree, that even here, on an attachment parenting website, it is still a controversial idea that babies cry because they need a response, and that by responding you are in fact giving a baby what they expect and need.

What if babies cry to express emotional or psychological turmoil? What if babies need to cry and get this out, and to feel heard when the do? How many people pay to sit in a room and talk out their problems while nobody listens? People are so desperate to feel heard in our culture, they pay others to listen! People need to feel heard in order to process what they feel. What if by responding and really listening, you were in fact helping your baby heal from inner distress? What if you changed how you viewed crying, and began to value, really value, the power of responding and listening to your baby's cry? What if doing this brought a new meaning to the power of attachment, and helped your child to sleep better without risking feelings of detachment or frustration?

That was my experience, and I would never have found it were it not for people willing to challenge conventional views and get me thinking about my own attitude towards crying, sleep, and how attachment can help, not hinder, dealing with these issues. It worked. We all get enough rest. But it takes a paradigm shift in how you view these issues to value the process at all.

I am not here to persuade people who don't want to respond that they should. I am here to encourage those who believe that they should respond every time, and who do not believe that attachment parenting need involve detachment from their baby in order to parent effectively. Because our society is so obsessed with getting parents to detach, it is *not* easy to find
ways to parent that support attachment, and I will continue to hope that at the very least, a parent can find that here.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:

Some parents have said the baby needs to fall asleep away from the breast.
some babies do. it is far less AP, IMO, to force a child to fall asleep at the breast if they don't want to and give all the cues in the world that that's not what they want, then to just listen to the child and let them fall asleep away from the breast.

Quote:

Some that the baby needs to sleep for a certain number of hours.
my son does. i don't know about any other kids out there, but if he doesn't get a good, solid 10+ hours of sleep a night, plus a 2-3 hour nap in the afternoon, he's a stressed out, uptight little guy who can't deal with the world. that's not healthy. so, i enforce our bedtime rituals. when he gets up, i help him back into bed as many times as is necessary before he realizes that it's no longer play time. like i said, i can't speak for any other child on the planet except my own ~ but i am inclined to think that if my son is like that, other kids are probably the same way too.

Quote:

I completely agree that I have beliefs which guide me as well!
there is a big difference between having beliefs which guide you, and doing what you believe in regardless of other cues you are receiving from your children. as someone else pointed out:

Quote:

I think sometimes AP parents stick too closely to "AP rules" like cosleeping without really being in tune to the baby's needs. I think cosleeping at all costs is almost as bad as crib sleeping at all costs, like many "mainstream" parents do.
if a parent is so busy sticking to what they believe is the AP philosophy that they completely forget to tune in to their own child's needs, that's not AP.

Quote:

I believe that to ignore a persons cry is an act of detachment.
i can't speak for anyone else here, but i personally never said that i ever ignored my son's crying. i heard it, and _i learned the difference between an "i'm sleepy, leave me alone so i can sleep" fuss and a "mommy, i need you" cry._ was this convenient for me? NO! i spent hours tuning in to him, at all times of the day and night. there were a lot of nights when i thought, "gosh i wish he'd just go to sleep," but i didn't let that keep me from tending to him when he needed me. did i still let him fuss when he needed it? yes, because i knew that's what he needed to sleep better.

people need sleep to be healthy, children included. if a parent is constantly keeping their child awake because they think it's in the child's best interest to never be left alone, that's not good parenting -- that's ignoring what that child needs. i think personally that this is pretty far from what the majority of people in this country believe in -- i haven't met many other parents that are even willing to take the time to listen to their children and take note of their baby's cues even before the child is born.

my only real point with all of this is that i want people to realize that babies are different, period, and that a strict "AP" philosophy won't always work for *all* children. they're not cookie-cutter shapes -- they're people. AP to me means that a parent is willing to take the time and effort to learn who their babies are from day 1 (or before) -- what they need, what they like, and personality traits that define how a child will react in any given situation. to me, that's true attachment. i'm truly sorry if people can't see past rigid labels or lists to be able to understand that.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
...People need to feel heard in order to process what they feel. ...

I don't agree with that as a truism. Sometimes what people need to process their feelings is privacy and time alone.

In my opinion, some adults need to "be heard", some adults need to be left alone. Some babies thrive on constant stimulation in the way of being held and/or spoken too and some babies are very easily over-stimluated and need to be left alone. Not in a "Oh, cry your eyes out, I don't care!" way, but in a "I can see that just being held and/or spoken too is too much right now and being alone in a safe place seems to be more soothing to you."


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## crazy_eights (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
If a baby left to fuss, does so for a minute or two and then drifts off to sleep, is this not better than trying to hold/nurse/rock the baby when that only makes the fussing escalate to crying, and gets the child too agitated to sleep? If picking up the child makes him wail harder, that is apparently not what he needs, right?

YES! I have lived through this very scenario.

And Heartmama - I agree with you to a point. Babies cry to communicate. And sometimes what they are saying is "I'm tired and I can't figure out how to fall asleep and all this nursing and rocking and is upsetting me more and more!!!!!" I've lived that one. I *did* have a baby that screamed 7 o'clock on the dot no matter what I did - until I would put him in his bed and he would fall asleep almost instantly. It was really humbling for me to realize that I was making the situation worse by holding/trying to nurse/bouncing/rocking etc. It made him furious. In that case, I think that it was meeting *MY* needs to not put him down. I also had a child that head banged when tired and all I could do was try to keep her from hurting herself. If I tried to hold her, I wound up getting hurt as she would bash her head against my chest.

All that being said, I think that the most "attachted" thing we can do is try to *listen to what our children need*. When you have a child who is miserable from lack of sleep, you generally know it. Esp. when they start sleeping and transform overnight. And no, I don't think that is society telling me "my child needs x amount of sleep" or "needs to fall asleep on his own" - it's finding out for ourselves as parents what our children need as individuals and responding in kind.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chanley*
Am I the only one thinking that there are some semantical problems with some of the confusion???

After reading lilyka's post I am thinking that the term CIO is a very broad one and that is where some of the disagreement comes from.


Yea, could not agree more - seems to happen a lot too.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*

I see parents insisting that their baby "needs" something that is as much speculation and a reflection of the parent's own labels and theories as anything I have said about attachment parenting.


I would like to respond to this but I wanted to ask for a clarification first because I'm not sure understand you correctly.

Are you saying that sometimes a parent "projects" some need onto a child because they actually have a "want" for the "need"?

If so, I would agree that this probably does happen but I absolutely don't think it's happening here with the parents on this thread.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

This weekend I was at a festival with a good friend who is going through a long separation from her partner. We were there to have a good time and celebrate but she began thinking and talking about her partner. I could see that she was getting upset&#8230;

_How the hell does this relate to this discussion? - you ask_

She was upset and I asked her if she wanted to cry. It wasn't a particularly good time to be crying (she had _a lot_ of makeup on, LOL) but she said, yes. So, I asked her more about how sad she was and to tell me about how much she missed him - and she whaled, and sobbed, laughed and let go for a while. She thanked me afterwards because all people had been doing for months was "cheer her up". Then later I was at the bar with a 55 year old man and he apologized for getting teary eyed. I said that I didn't mind and he cried for while. I think being around a toddler all the time has made me the official "crying" friend because they know I'm used to it, lol!

Anyway, I took a parenting class from one of the authors of 'Becoming the Parent You Want to Be' and she talked about crying. She asked the parents to recall how they feel after a good cry. Personally, I feel great after a good cry - especially if there isn't someone there trying to make me stop, which is far too often because for most of us or cultural instincts are to try to stop a person from crying.

I think it is a good idea to look at the negative impact of instinctively stoping adults from crying (a very "conventional" thing to do especially for men but for women too) and think about how this applies to children and to this conversation.

I was away this weekend so I haven't read all the replies thoroughly but I wanted to be sure to address any suggestions that some children don't actually need/want to cry - in much the same way that some adults do.

Some do - mine does. I always _respond_ to my child's needs. I always respond to her when she cries but *there are times when the response she needs is from me to do nothing but let her cry* . It's a reality that crying serves a vital purpose and is a wonderful coping mechanism - it's important not to forget this when it comes to our own children. This was one of the biggest challenge I had during the infant stage - allowing my child to cry.

Edited to clarify because I've been reading the thread more thoroughly:

I am saying that there are times that the crying can often be the "need" in-and-of-itself and even when there are deeper issues, crying can be a temporary relief from the problem.

I really like what a lot of you have said about really honoring the crying and I think another extension of that is respecting its value and letting it flow - go mamas!

And, please keep in mind that I am having this conversation knowing that we are all responsive parents&#8230;otherwise I wouldn't probably be talking about "honoring crying" because, otherwise, there would be bigger issues.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

oops...


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## zaftigmama (Feb 13, 2004)

I don't know if there's anything new to add to this thread - so much has been covered. But a few things keep coming to mind when reading the posts.

I have two kids, and they are similar in some ways, vastly different in other ways. My first, a girl, was a colicky, high-needs, stressed, baby. She needed to be held, rock and nursed to sleep. I did try letting her cry once, and I came to the realization that she would probably cry for however long I left her, without stopping. She made herself throw up, and was showing signs of what my ped. later told me was severe seperation anxiety. I never did it again, we started co-sleeping, and we've been great since.

Then I had my son, and I remember days and days of walking, rocking, nursing, cuddling this crying child, trying to get him to sleep. I put him down on a blanket for a minute so I could fasten my nursing bra, and he was asleep in 5 seconds. A day or so later, a similar thing happened. I never thought of putting him down awake, because my only experience was my daughter, and it never would have worked. But, because of that it took me too long to realize that he wanted to be put down awake. And he has done great ever since.

My issue is with parents who have sleep problems with one child and start 'sleep training' the second one without knowing if it's necessary. The second, or third, child may be missing out on some physical affection and attention because their parents are afraid 'they'll get used to it." As infants, don't they need it?? Not letting a newborn fall asleep at the breast, which is such a natural thing, because it may cause a problem later? That just seems so harsh.

Also, I have a problem with the term 'crying it out' vs just 'crying' or 'fussing.' Sometimes Ari fusses, sometimes he doesn't. I don't let him cry - I can usually tell if the fussing is going to calm down or escalate, and if it's getting worse, I get him and try again later. But when someone says 'crying it out' -or CIO- that makes it sound like the baby has to cry whatever 'it' is out, and deal with something that way. If a baby is crying or fussing because that's how they sleep (something I never believed was possible until I met my son), they're not crying anything out. They're just fussing themselves until they are ready to go to sleep. But somehow the very term 'crying it out' brings images of babies wailing, furious and terrified in their cribs, alone, looking for something, but just being ignored while they get 'it' out of their systems. Maybe that's semantic nitpicking at it's worst, but does anyone know what I mean?? Maybe the term CIO is the problem itself. As well as the fact that it has so many definitions.

Sorry for the rambling!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Midwestenmomma*
I did a modified version of CIO with both of my kids and will admit to it readily...I couldn't let a little fussing stand in my way of setting amazing sleep patterns that they would have the rest of their lives...we would put him in his crib and let him cry for 2 min, go check, pat, love, etc... leave, 5 min later, go check, pat, love, etc, leave... 7 min later.. on and on and on until the intervals were much more spaced out and he eventually learned to sleep.

This is what led me to believe that you did not, in fact, pick him up. In fact, the description of your technique, as well as your belief that this was necessary to "set amazing sleep patterns" is almost word-for-word from a "controlled-crying" study proposal I read (and what a lot of sleep-training books out there say as well). I didn't read anywhere that you picked him up or held him, etc. The fact that you went "by the watch" (again, according to your description above) seems to suggest that this was the critical factor.

I realize it's not easy to describe a whole method in a post, but perhaps you can see how I got the impression that you were doing CIO? I can see from what you said in your last post that perhaps this was not the whole story.

Nevertheless, any judgement or "clique-ness" you may feel hopefully didn't come from me. I thought I was making it pretty clear that I was not attaching any sort of judgement on you. I was just trying to comment on how a discussion of "CIO" reveals that there are many different ways of doing it, and not all of them may fit one's notions of what it is. All I said was, from my POV, what you did was "CIO". Whether that makes you AP or not, a "bad mother" or not, is certainly not for me to say!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

You know, at times this thread has made me feel uncomfortable, and I think I know why: I guess I'm worried that someone reading this is going to get the message that babies who aren't sleep trained end up rotten, sleep-deprived sleepers. That these sleep-training methods work miracles, etc.

The unanswerable question is, would a child like Lilyka have responded to such a technique from birth? We will never know. We will never know if it was really just that the child grew out of it, or was mature enough to deal with some restrictions on bedtime. And the babies who were trained from birth and are happy, etc....we'll never know if they would have been just as happy if they were parenting without such training. Which is not to say that these parents have done "wrong" or anything like that...I'm just concerned that there is an underlying message here that undermines the concept of natural nighttime parenting (and I don't think anybody here has said that, I just think it's an undertone, y'know?).

I also wanted to respond to someone's suggestion that babies be taught to fall asleep in different ways. I don't think that is necessarily the solution. When DD was a newborn, she fell asleep after every nursing session at the breast. What was I going to do, shake her awake so she wouldn't sleep at the breast? And yet I could always put her down with no fuss. Then we spent months putting her to sleep her favorite way: being held in our arms while we danced to music. DH and I did equal duty on this. But as she grew, eventually she didn't want or need that anymore. She went through a long phase of only nursing to sleep (or else in the car/stroller) and that was despite being a baby who could be put to sleep by virtually anybody willing to do the "dance". She went through a phase where we could NOT put her down or she'd wake up. That lasted about a month or two. Then she just grew out of it.

I honestly believe that children go through phases in their sleep patterns and it concerns me to apply a blanket approach assuming that what works at one age will work (or not work) at another. I also loathe the term "bad sleep habits" because of it's misuse and misconception in mainstream circles at large. Again, I don't see anybody here adovacting this, I'm just worried that it's a message that is inadvertently being sent, kwim?


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## crazy_eights (Nov 22, 2001)

Since you are worried, I'll say it again: I think the most important (and most "AP") thing we can do is *listen to what our children need*!

I have 6 children and have found that each one of them has needed different things at different times. What is working for me right now with my 20 month old son certainly wouldn't have worked before he was verbal and I never tried it then. You and your child are partners in a dance, each learning about one another. Sleep is no different.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
You know, at times this thread has made me feel uncomfortable, and I think I know why: I guess I'm worried that someone reading this is going to get the message that babies who aren't sleep trained end up rotten, sleep-deprived sleepers. That these sleep-training methods work miracles, etc.

&#8230;

I honestly believe that children go through phases in their sleep patterns and it concerns me to apply a blanket approach assuming that what works at one age will work (or not work) at another. I also loathe the term "bad sleep habits" because of it's misuse and misconception in mainstream circles at large. Again, I don't see anybody here adovacting this, I'm just worried that it's a message that is inadvertently being sent, kwim?

I can see the reason someone would worry that this site is another advocate for CIO when reading the supportive nature of this thread - thus making it unanimous - and I can see why you feel uncomfortable about that. The thing is that I was really interested in talking about this with "like minded" mamas.

I also chimed in because I read some things that I think should be addressed from the "mainstream AP" position like this "underlying" feeling I got that if children cry the parent isn't doing something right.

I totally, completely agree about "techniques" being applied to all children. Sometimes I read these things as parents sharing what worked for them in hopes that the information will work for another family and other times it seems like parents are "pushing" their methods on me (not here - I'm just talking technique talk in general).

As far as the term "bad sleep habits" I'm a person who used the term habit early on to suggest that the child may not be a "bad" sleeper but may have a particular sleep habit. Personally, I think we all have sleep habits and they only become "bad" when it doesn't work for everyone.

I don't really know what you mean about the misuse in the mainstream world because, apparently, I have no experience with what most people describe as the mainstream world.

I'm glad we are talking about this because I've always been a touch confused about the CIO thing. In our family, we do not do any type of controlled crying and DC always has us next to her but sometimes I do withhold some things, which makes her cry. I know some of you will say that what we do is not CIO but I also read in someone's post that any spectrum of CIO is just as bad as the worst case scenario and it bugs me to think that this may apply to me too.

I guess that because the title of this thread and all that we are talking about the gray area, not the extreme or conventional CIO approach. Seems like a good thing to talk about. Like someone else said, it makes her feel like recommending this site to her "mainstream" friends - how could that be a bad thing?


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
... I guess I'm worried that someone reading this is going to get the message that babies who aren't sleep trained end up rotten, sleep-deprived sleepers... I also loathe the term "bad sleep habits" because of it's misuse and misconception in mainstream circles at large.

i certainly hope nobody comes here and thinks that!! but i think the overall discussion, if nothing else, presents enough ideas from all sides to give people the Big Picture...

also, i apologize, i think i did use the term "bad sleep habits" at one point... when what i just mean is, if a child isn't sleeping well, or enough, and it's obviously affecting their moods and health, then something needs to change, ykwim?


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

What about children over a year? Like I said previously there have been times i have left my daughter for up to 10 minutes. She will wake up at some point in the night (before 5 am) and just want to play, play, play. She is wide-eyed and staring at me while she nurses. I let her nurse, give her a kiss and put her in her crib. I KNOW she is still needing to sleep. I go out and sit on the couch to make sure that I don't fall asleep and leave her longer and I set the timer for 10 minutes in case I fall asleep out there. I never leave her past the 10 minute mark. Almost 100% of the time she will be out within 3 minutes. Yes she cries for those 3 minutes but then she goes back to sleep. If she is still crying after 10 minutes I go in and try nursing again to see if that will work. Sometimes that does and she falls asleep nursing. How would it be better for me to keep nursing her and rocking her (which I tried MANY times) which results in her being upset and totally awake for the day (at 3 am!)? I have a very hard time believing I am damaging her by saying night night sweetie and giving her a kiss and letting her cry for a few minutes. This isn't even a common occurence, maybe a few times a month. But I am not going to let her wake the whole family up at 3 am (she is a very loud talker) by taking herr out to the living room and staying awake when I know that if she cries for a few minutes she'll be out. I don't agree with CIO as a parenting philosophy but in situations like this I fail to see the harm. Any comments on this? Is this considering bad and neglectful? I really don't think it is.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Heavenly, see my posts about my recent experiences with my 22 month old and her nightwaking. I do think that there is a huge difference between babies and toddlers.

ICM, good points. One thing I left out of my last post was that I do like this thread. I like the supportive nature of it, and I really like hearing all POV, like from Lilyka, Midwesternmama, and others without people jumping in and getting nasty. I think one-sided discussions are boring and not very educational, lol.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Klothos wrote:

~it is far less AP, IMO, to force a child to fall asleep at the breast if they don't want to and give all the cues in the world that that's not what they want, then to just listen to the child and let them fall asleep away from the breast.

Klothos I have to respectfully say you made laugh. The image of a parent "forcing" a baby to nurse to sleep~I am not even sure how one would do that. Seriously, if the baby is latching on and nursing attentively, I have no clue how you can view that as a parent forcing their baby to nurse to sleep??

~there is a big difference between having beliefs which guide you, and doing what you believe in regardless of other cues you are receiving from your children. as someone else pointed out

This is where we should understand is the real disagreement Klothos. I did respond to my son's cues, and it did help him. I'm not sure if you were referring to me, but I certainly did not sit around reading books while my son was giving me signals I ignored, like some inept ap intellectual. Honestly, that image is so far from us, I nearly cracked up picturing myself like that. I learned there is a way to do this without detaching from his cries. In that sense it isn't theory for me either, but reality, one that works. So please just chill out on your image of parents choosing differently than you as one's living in their heads. I can assure you I for one was not.

You believe your baby cries and need no response because you choose to believe that. You feel since he sleeps better now, there is no other way, no other path, no other answer for your family that need be explored, because this works for you.

And that is fine, and you are a good parent, and I am not here to argue with you. I believe there is another way to deal with crying that also works, and if a parent is reading, and wants to make a choice without detaching, I want to support *that* parent.

I believe in the power of attachment, and I believe that, ultimately, there is an answer that can be found without the framework of attachment for each moment of parenting our child.

I do not want a pat on the back, and a "Whatever you do is fine dear" when I come to an attachment parenting website. I want to be challenged, I want to be held to something that doesn't shift to include every moment I couldn't apply attachment parenting to our family.

I don't see that openness in some people here. I see people wanting only to be told that whatever they do is fine, because "every child is different". I don't understand why anyone would read an ap website and get upset at the idea that perhaps they don't know everything about ap yet. I don't know everything, and I've been trying to understand it for nearly a decade.

Yes, the phrase "attachment parent" is just a label. People are going to intrepret it differently. For me, I have found the most profound answers with ap when I view it as the practice of non resistance. There is tremendous power in non resistance, and the most conventional image of it would be Ghandi. When I have truly quieted my own ego and expectations, and become patient and attentive to my baby, and later my child, I have found this to resolve sleep, discipline, feeding issues etc. in a way that is light, re-energizing for us both, and truly a joy to experience.

People can put the ap label on anything they choose, but when they come here, I hope it is with an openness to being challenged towards deeper thought about their choices, and not just to have them validated. Once this website becomes just like any other large parenting discussion board, it will no longer serve any purpose to the ap community. For some here , that may not make any difference. For those who want this board to continue being a haven from the attitudes found elsewhere on the web, it is important to remain open when reading here. Yes, something might challenge you own ideas about sleep and crying. But ask yourself where else you can go to actually be challenged within ap. Not many places! I hope readers here will always strive to value that challenge, rather than render it obsolete.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
I always _respond_ to my child's needs. I always respond to her when she cries but there are times when the response she needs is from me to do nothing but let her cry.

Heartmama - could you respond to what I said here in this previous post?

When I read your posts I agree with what you say but I have the feeling that it may be you who is not open to believing that another style parenting practice may actually have a better fit for some children.

When you were made to laugh by the suggestion by Klothos that made about "forcing" a child to nurse, I found what you said funny - good cycle we've got going. I can tell you that I did miss my child's signals that she didn't want to nurse for several weeks and during that time my child and I would have benefited from reading what Klothos said.

The two needs that were hardest for me to identify in my infant were wanting to be put down (not held) and the need to be left (not alone - just not offered breast/snuggles) to cry.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
...I don't see that openness in some people here...

Are you putting yourself in that group? Because I am reading your posts and I don't see you as being open to what _other mothers_ are saying.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
...You believe your baby cries and need no response because you choose to believe that. ...

You seem to be completely closed to the idea that some babies are over-stimulated by the amount of attachement you are advocating for _every baby_. Is there not even a remote possibility that the crying baby in question needs no response because that is what _they_ truly need at that moment in time? There are _no_ babies who might find being crying alone for a few minutes more soothing than being in the presense of their mother?

It sounds your baby responded well to your theories. That's good. But what if you'd have a very easily over-stimulated baby? Or do you simply not believe those babies exist?


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## Amazlilith (Nov 10, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sagewinna*









I am not comfortable letting my kids cry alone either.

Right there with you!!!!


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I think its great that some mothers have realized what their particular children need may not be the "textbook" answer. I know it took me a couple of months of struggling to realize that what I thought I should be doing was making bedtimes a dreaded part of the day. I was hold, rocking, singing, and (trying) to nurse. Heartmama -- you only think this is funny because you haven't tried to do it. I would hold DD to nurse (about 12 mo at the time), she would cry or bite, I would try again, she would cry, and we'd try this for an hour until I was in tears, frustrated, feeling like a failure because she didn't want to nurse to sleep. She might nurse for a while, but then she'd push away and cry. It took me forever (and a "wake up call" from several people here) to recognize that her message was "this isn't good for me". I'd try to rock and sing and she would claw at my face, bite, scream, arch her back, kick -- I was seriously black and blue. And crying for failing at being a good "AP" mom. We did this for weeks. I finally decided, in desparation, to put her down because she was so strong that she could tear herself from me and fall to the floor. I put her in her crib. She cried for about as long as I took to walk down the stairs (maybe 10 sec.?). And she falls asleep. I cannot believe what it took for me to realize that what I was "supposed to do" was not the right answer.

You will ask, why was she in a crib and not your bed? Because she would wake up and be violent in the middle of the night, all the time, many times a night. She kicked so hard at one point that she broke my nose. She hurt her big brother who spends part of the night with us each night. She left bruises on all of us. She slept better in the crib. Really, truly, she did. And we didn't get hurt.

Moral of the story? If you listen to your children, you will sometimes hear a different answer than the "textbook" one. And the true meaning of AP must be to respect your child's (and the rest of the family's) individual needs -- not to insist on doing it the way everyone else of the AP message board says you must.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:

do you simply not believe those babies exist?
pugmadmama, i think you hit the nail on the head, at least from what has been written in all of her other responses.

Quote:

You believe your baby cries and need no response because you choose to believe that.
please go back and re-read every single post i have made in this thread and point out exactly where i said that i let my son cry with no response. i NEVER have let him just cry, and i have never believed for an instant that a baby who cries would need "no response." i have repeatedly said i listened to his cues and realized that he needed a few minutes to himself to fuss. i also said, more than once, that there is a difference between a child who fusses because they need less stimulation and a child who cries because they truly need something. i am sorry for you if you either don't understand that there's a difference, or you choose not to believe that a mother can tune into this difference in her child, or you simply refuse to believe that babies like this exist.

i also never said anything about a person sitting around reading books and ignoring their kids like "some AP intellectual." i'm not sure where you got that idea but it is uniquely your own.

please ~ instead of putting words (and ideas) up here and crediting them to me, re-read my posts with an open mind. open... you know... like a window letting in fresh air.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Oops...Klothos, we posted at the same time, hope you don't mind what I said...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
Klothos wrote:

~there is a big difference between having beliefs which guide you, and doing what you believe in regardless of other cues you are receiving from your children. as someone else pointed out


I don't think that Kothlos was saying that anyone was too busy reading about their views that they weren't attentive to their children. I understood her to be saying that a person's ideals can sometimes make it hard to see what you need to do. Like Evan&Annaa's Mom said - if the answer you hear from your child isn't what your "philosophy" tells you.

BTW, I really liked the analogy about "ripping off a band aid" - I can't remember who said it but it was cool and often how I feel about some ways of using CIO (I don't personally used them but I think it could go very much like the band aid idea)


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## Chanley (Nov 19, 2001)

For what its worth, there is a BETTER painless way to get a bandaid off. Take a little oil and gently massage it into the area around the bandaid. It loosens the adhesive and does not hurt. (I have a very hairy husband)
So yeah even the band-aid ripping analogy has a gentler way of being handled.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Okay&#8230;

What the band aid analogy meant to me is that if a person has the choice between a short uncomfortable situation and a long drawn out, less uncomfortable situation then the former may be more desirable.

It was an analogy - and a good one, if you ask me.

Off topic but I also really like the simple analogy of the oxygen masks on the airplane - how the parent should put theirs on before the child. Not a 100% perfect analogy, I know (are there any?) but a very good way of illustrating that if don't take care of yourself you can't take care of your child.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Heartmama, I loved what you said about trying to find solutions that lie within the frame of attachment. One thing I do believe is that there are always a number of ways to achieve an end. If one is completely closed off to the idea of any form of CIO, it might challenge them to find other ways to solve their troubles. On the other hand, not a one of us is in any position to judge whether or not a mama "exhausted all her attached options" or whether the option she chose was "wrong" or whether there might have been another way...since we have not walked in their shoes, do not know their children or their situations.

I find myself in agreement with klothos and others that perhaps some babies really do need to be left alone, or put down, or something other than what the standard "AP protocol" suggests. I have heard enough stories here from mamas about how the baby would be happy only when finally put down, even if it broke the heart of the mama who wanted so much to hold her crying baby. I still think such babies would logically be a minority, but that sure doesn't mean they don't exist.

I know one mama in person who was so AP and just so excited about cosleeping with her baby. She fought it for almost a year and tried so many things before finally putting her DD in a crib - and the change was dramatic. It was obvious talking to her how much it pained her, how much she had wanted to cosleep, and how she never thought her child would be in a crib. But ultimately, it would have been selfish of her to try and keep her child in the bed when the child just wasn't comfortable there. Maybe there was "one more thing" she could have tried to keep her child in the bed, but since I wasn't up every night with the baby (and daytimes with no naps) and I had no other solutions to offer her, really...what could anyone say?


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

I personally do not think leaving the room and allowing the baby to cry is ever an option. I just wouldn't choose that path. At the very least I would insist on staying with them if I felt they needed to fuss a bit.

On the other hands, having good sleepers was always important to me. From birth onward I tried to make a habit of helping my girls learn to fall asleep without nursing. Sometimes they did nurse, but neither was ever dependant on it. This was more for my benefit than theirs I'll admit. DH and I could take turns laying down with them to help them fall asleep. So on nights I felt 'spent" I could get a guilt free break. But because they never learned a dependancy on nursing to fall asleep there was never any rough transition time or struggles with it.

We just tried to get in the habit of laying in bed to fall asleep. I let them roll around and shuffle as much as they needed. If they drifted off, wonderful- but if they needed more interraction from me I did what they needed. If my baby needed to nurse during a time I thought she might fall asleep I would talk to her and play with her hand and yes, I hoped she would nurse without falling asleep- and then I'd go into the bedroom and lay with her until she fell asleep. It certainly isn't the easy way- it often took more time and energy.

All kids are different, of course... but basic human needs will always be the same. I really feel that a basic human need for a dependant child is to know we will be there for them always. Not "always unless we think they don't need us". For this reason I would never suggest or agree with someone using the CIO method. I just can't think of a situation where I would think of it as a good option. I would rather a mom let the baby cry and leave before hurting or yelling at the child, but I think all should be avoided.

So, in answer to the original post- no i don't think it is the lesser or two evils. If you really want some options and ideas though- feel free to PM me and I would be glad to put my thinking cap on with you and help you find some sollutions that might work. Because of how we tried to get our girls to sleep without nursing and because I was a professional nanny before mommy I have tried a million and one different ways to help babies drift off contendly. I would be glad to help you find some sollutions if you need it!


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## Nate (Sep 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
Klothos wrote:

Klothos I have to respectfully say you made laugh. The image of a parent "forcing" a baby to nurse to sleep~I am not even sure how one would do that. Seriously, if the baby is latching on and nursing attentively, I have no clue how you can view that as a parent forcing their baby to nurse to sleep??

Actually, I do on a regular basis have to "force" dd to nurse to sleep. We go through our night time ritual--bath, pajamas, put our waves CD on, kiss/wave night-night to Daddy, go in & try to read a few books...then it's time to nurse. (Yes, I still nurse her down whenever possible. If she pulls off & goes to sleep, that's great, but nursing seems to be what works). Usually she'll initiate the nursing (grabs the book, throws it on the floor, then twists around and lifts my shirt







: ).

Sometimes she's so tired that she peacefully nurses down.







But often as she nurses she's kicking, wriggling, etc., and occasionally popping off to





















at me. If I let her continue, we'd be sitting there for 2 hours. So I have to hold her tight, to make it hard to kick & wiggle, with a firm hand at the back of her head to keep her from popping off to chatter.

Maybe it's not exactly forcing, b/c it's not like she's crying, but if I let her lead the way she'd be bouncing on me & pointing out all the cool things in her room. So it's not like she's cooperating w/ my plan, either.

Boy, this went from 2 pages to 6 over the wkd., and I'm still catching up on posts. It's continued to remain pretty respectful, w/o people taking things too personally. Good job, ladies!


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rainbow*
I personally do not think leaving the room and allowing the baby to cry is ever an option. I just wouldn't choose that path. At the very least I would insist on staying with them if I felt they needed to fuss a bit.

But what if this made the situation worse? I can stay in the same room with my DS while she cries and she will cry for much longer than I can stand it. Then we start the whole cycle of screaming, kicking, struggling over while I try to hold her and calm her. Or, I can walk out of the room while she's crying and she will stop within 15 seconds and sleep. Do you really believe that I'm taking the wrong path here? I sure don't. OK, I'm not saying it is the right answer for every child. I'm saying its the right answer for MY child. And it might be the right answer for someone else's child if they listen and watch and respond to cues from their child instead of from the "AP textbook". Are such children a minority? Probably. Does that mean they don't exist? No. Does that mean that we should ignore their cues? Most definitely not. Is it easy to figure all of this out? Of course not -- no one said parenting was easy! But figuring out what works for our specific children is our job.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Rainbow,

Thanks for reminding us that what the OP and others need are help with sleep issues. I was really into this debate over CIO and whether or not a child would ever actually want to cry that I forgot that there is a mom here that needs some sleep.

I am in the process of changing some of our sleep habits. Granted, this is for a 29 month old child but I'll try to think of what would help a younger child sleep. I know the OP doesn't see CIO as the ideal but feels the alternatives are not an option. I'll try to think of some things too&#8230;good call, Rainbow!


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:

I do on a regular basis have to "force" dd to nurse to sleep.
whoa, Nate, i feel i need to clarify. i have no idea how old your daughter is, but it did make me think ~ i really believe there's a huge difference between, say, a 4 month old who "refuses" to nurse (and obviously still needs the nutrition), and a parent who "forces" their child to nurse (because they know they need the nutrition), and a parent who tries to keep on nursing, say, a toddler (i mean, over a year and a half or so here, or even over 12 months) to sleep when they obviously don't want it. at that age, if they don't need the extra nutrition, why push the issue? that's all i meant.

Evan&Anna's_Mom, you said it perfectly...

Quote:

I can stay in the same room with my DS while she cries and she will cry for much longer than I can stand it. Then we start the whole cycle of screaming, kicking, struggling over while I try to hold her and calm her.








that's my son exactly. (he bites, too.)

and now i have officially forgotten what exactly the OP was asking. ("you know a thread is too long when..."







)...


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
Do you really believe that I'm taking the wrong path here? I sure don't.

Than that is really all that matters. I have made, and continue to make choices that not everyone here would agree with. They are mine to make though, so it doesn't matter what others think about it. This is your choice to make and if your mommy heart tells you it is right, than it is your choice to make. I am only stating that I couldn't ever bring myself to let my child CIO. Just thinking of what the child must feel watching my back as I walk away from their tears makes me to sad.

Identity Crisis Mama-







Thanks


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
Klothos wrote:
The image of a parent "forcing" a baby to nurse to sleep~I am not even sure how one would do that. Seriously, if the baby is latching on and nursing attentively, I have no clue how you can view that as a parent forcing their baby to nurse to sleep??
.

Honesty I would try and force Lily to nurse because I equated nursing with going to sleep and figured if I could just get her to nurse she would go to sleep and after 2 hours of nursing I would be mad at her because she wasn't asleep yet. It wasn't pretty or very rational but it is hard to be rational when you are that tired :LOL BUt dang it in my mind any child, if nursed long enough would fall asleep. that is pretty much what I had been led to believe. what with those relaxy hormones in breastmilk. I did other things in the name of AP that caused my child to suffer and I think that is the point she was trying to make., I am here to say that I am an intellegent person that let my parenting philosophy get int he way of actually listening and connecting and attatching to my child. Finally when I said screw all the rules I relized they weren't rules at all. That no one has all the answers for anyone child. that those are tools, good tools that work to different degrees for different children in different families. We aren't talking about blindly saying, CIO is the easiest way for lazy ole me and it works for everyone else and I don't care if they cry or why they cry so I am just going to do it this way. We are talking about people who have exahusted every other option and can't continue. they may even be on the edge of hurting thier child physically and have probably crossed emotiuional and verbal lines. You may think you would never get there because you know more thatn that but having the constant challenge of a baby who never lets you get a moments of peace and makes you resent ever having to be around them (I am true introvert and I freak out if I don't get breathing time and touch free silent time. It is biologically who I am all the philosophising and agreeing with others that is is selfish and wrong won't change me one bit. I tried. It is better to let your baby cry themselves to sleep for a few nights if it means you won't shake them., If it means you won't scream at them for being cruel in that they never will sleep and give you a momnent peace. It is better than regreting your descision to concieve this child. Trust me they will get over feeling put out about bed time in a few weeks but those things they may never get over. There I have said it. She almost drove me to very darkest placdes a parent can go. Fortunately I didn't mind letting her sit and cry so me striking or shaking her was never an issue but I would yell horrible things at her and I did wish that I hadn't had her and said that if I had known she was going to be so selfish and demanding that Iw ould never have had her. All I heard was if you followed the AP rules better you would have a better sleping. I read over the baby book over and over and over wondering where the perfect child promised was (the rose colored view that book promises is a trhead unto itself) and what I was doing wrong and never once did I listen to my baby and relize all she needed was sleep. even if it meant sending my older one away so we could work on it. even if it meant doing hard core CIO (and let me tell you atr that point I wouldn't have cared if she screamed for days i was so detatched from her) It sucks to feel that way about your baby . really really sucked. That is when I decided I needed to put the books away and just listen to what she was telling me. I read a couple of books on sleep. One sounded so good that my friends and I split the chapters and would report every 4 minutes while we sat in barnes and noble. we read the entire book that way in about an hour while our babies pulled books off the shelves. Everything said the same thing. Routiens and schedules. and then there were other suggestions. we gpt right to work that night. we did aroma therapy, massage but no more than an hour before bedtime, , and routien routien routien and yes even fussing at bedtime and nap time for a few days. I suddenly started feeling better about my baby and started falling in love for the first time (even after birth she didn't fall into the newborn sleep that most do. and I was so tired. it strted right then the very first day) by the time she was two she was going to bed at a decent time (8 as opposed to 1AM ) and for the first time in her life napping. Also I was beginning to feel more like a person. My needs were important. Her needs were important enough for me to meet them and not what some books said her need ought ot be.

Also I kinda take issue with the comment about people who let there baby's cry are detatched from theat crying. It breaks my heart when my child cries becuase they feel unwell or are overstimulated. It is sad for me when they are mad at me or when they are frustrated but there is sometimes nothing I can do about it but say "I hear that you are mad because you don't want to go to bed but I know what is best for you and i that is going to bed so I love you, I will check on you in a little while but now is time for sleeping. good night sleepy baby" Just because someone lets thier baby work through thier overstimulation., anger or frustration doesn't mean they are detatched from those emotions but they have watched and know what thier children need to do to process them.

Just because i started at birth with Ava doesn't mean I was detatching from her. I just chose to instil different habits for her. Ones I could live with. I had been pushed to edge and knew exactly where my drop off was and had no plan on returning there. And since they were so close I was not very far and still back tracking so it was important that I kept up the work I had started in the healing process. Ity wouold have been so hard for Lilyka and my relationship to heal if it was going south with another child.

Ad something that no one has brought up yet is that it is just different when you have 2 or three kids. Suddenly your world can't revolve around the sleep habits of one person. With Madeline if her sleep had been for crap what difference did it make. i could nap with her. I could spend the 45 minutes that it took getting her down for the nap and it was worth it because that 3 hours she slept was perfrect. no one to wake her up, I could get my needs met be they for alone time or cathcing up on sleep after a bad night. I didn't have anoyone else to care for so if she was tired cranky or just off we could mneet those needs in our time table. But once you have 2 or three you have other people to think about and what is best for someone had to be factored in to what is best for the whole family. Madeline was high need and sufddenly she was not getting her nap because I dared lay down with her Lily would scream bloody murder if she fell asleep and I got up she would scream, even when she did sleep she was moving and tossing and then crawling all around in her sleep. or she would wake up 20 minutes later and we would have a very upset Madeline. Madeline totally noticed that I never had time for her because heaven forbid I give attention to anyone but Lily or she would start to scream. it was awful. In those condition you just have no idea what you would do to save everyone. it was survival, truely. I would have chopped my toes off and sent them up as a burnt offering to the God of sleep if someone could have promised me that would work. My older dd needed me., I needed it and when I had Ava the world wasn't going to stop for her. She had to get the sleep she needed and sitting and nursing or holding her through naps and night just had no way of working in our lives. Slings don't work for me because have unusually short arms and I just don't like to use them outside of a practical going from here to there aspect. I like have a little body freedom. It makes me love my children more when they give me a little space. With one you just have more time and energy since it is sigly focused but once you are working a child into a fmaily it is just different.

Anyway, I am done. I think we have officially moved onto other topics (crying, what is AP anyway, etc. . ) and the sleeping issue has resolved to going aorund in circles. In less you have been desperate to change things you really have no idea what you would do. I truely feel like AP is more than being the one who can follow the most rules and more about being attatched and intuitively knowing what your baby needs and how much you canhandle and doing y our best to meet everyones needs as they arrive. I think that fussing, crying and even the very extreme CIO can have its place at some point and really is better than some alternatives and that place is at different points depending on how much yuou can take and where you are at. And I would nbever never judge someone for meeting thier beby's needs so long as they are doing it as gently as they can in the situation and that any harm done by the method is outweighed by the harm done by the problem. And I am not saying that AP automatically sets up bad sleep habits but that it does set up certain habits. Only you know if you will be OK with the outcome of these habits. I think it is only fair to your baby to not start something you know you are not willing to see through. I nkew I wouldn't be able to handle hours of nursing, holding while she slept and never having any time away from her. Mayey she wouldn;t have needed those things but I wasn't about to start down that path if I knew I couldn't handle it if it did turn into that because i knew there was thatpossiblity. now that she is older i am sure she owuld have had many of the same sleep issues as Lily. She odesn't handle change well and has the tendency to take a mile when offered an inch. Fortunately I now I have the wisdom to only offer an inch if I am willing to give a mile. And since we are all getting the sleep we need I am much more inclined ot have that mile to give


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## Nate (Sep 3, 2003)

Quote:

whoa, Nate, i feel i need to clarify. i have no idea how old your daughter is, but it did make me think ~ i really believe there's a huge difference between, say, a 4 month old who "refuses" to nurse (and obviously still needs the nutrition), and a parent who "forces" their child to nurse (because they know they need the nutrition), and a parent who tries to keep on nursing, say, a toddler (i mean, over a year and a half or so here, or even over 12 months) to sleep when they obviously don't want it.
Hi Klothos;
That's why I wondered if "force" is even the right term. I think Heartmama is right that it's hard to imagine really forcing a child to nurse. It's the classic leading a horse to water issue.

Thinking about it a bit, I think perhaps "refocussing" is a better term to use in my situation. She nurses for a while, then starts to bounce around, and I tell her that now isn't play time, it's bedtime (or nap time), and hold her extra tight to discouraging wiggling. If she didn't want to nurse, she wouldn't. (She's almost 14 months and rather, ahem, opinionated.) We've had several nights in the past month or 2 where we start the bedtime ritual, and have been nursing for 15 min. or so when suddenly she's wide awake & no amount of singing, rocking, gentle talking, encouraging of nursing will work--she just wants to talk, so we go back out to the living room, read some books, then start over again in 1/2 hour or so.

Quote:

I can stay in the same room with my DS while she cries and she will cry for much longer than I can stand it. Then we start the whole cycle of screaming, kicking, struggling over while I try to hold her and calm her. Or, I can walk out of the room while she's crying and she will stop within 15 seconds and sleep.
Evan&Anna's mom, we used to have that exact situation. If I tried to nurse Clara down in the bed, she'd want to play (interchanged w/ much eye-rubbing & occasional grouchiness). If I were to put her in her own crib but stay w/ her, she'd be mad b/c I was in the room w/ her but not holding her. The best thing when she was going through that phase (luckily over) was to do what you do. She'd fuss for a while, but go to sleep and wake up happy & refreshed.

Now, we're in a different phase, and I have pretty good luck nursing her down w/o too much resistance (knock on wood). The few times I've tried any sort of CIO in the last few months, I've noticed that she's been much clingier the next day. (And it didn't work, either.) So we don't do that anymore, since it obviously wasn't working on any number of levels.

I guess that's what AP means to me--that you respond to your child's needs, but be aware that they aren't going to be the same all the time. For a while Clara *needed* to fuss b/f bed to calm herself. Now she doesn't, but she does seem to need to kick, etc. while nursing to let off the steam from the day.


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## Sleepymama (Oct 9, 2003)

It was me who said babies should be encouraged to fall asleep different ways. And I will readily admit that plenty of babies fall asleep nursing all the time as newborns and gradually transition away from that as they get older without affecting the family's sleep too much. I said hn babies are the ones that are so persistent that once they get locked into a routine, they won't fall asleep any other way. Somewhere around 3 months my DS got addicted to the exercise ball to fall asleep. DH or I had to hold him on the ball, and bounce him to sleep. It took an hour usually. He has fallen asleep nursing about 5 times ever I think. Did I also mention that he had 2 heart surgeries and spent a total of a month in the hospital? I think he was one of the worst sleepers on record, waking every 10 minutes many nights, but anyway...

my cat popped the ball at 10pm one night, and I had to run out and buy another one immediately. it was the ONLY way he'd fall asleep. Until he was about 6 months old that ball was the only way he could fall asleep. Yes, it worked, and we did it (and I bought five balls since my cat wouldn't ever leave it alone!) but it really made our lives difficult. We couldn't go anywhere, visit anyone, ever.

I am the first one to say that I am not sure what we should have done differently with him. I think we did everything we could have. But I am really concerned about the next one, terrified even, and I do think that I will try really hard to help him/her get used to sleeping alone sometimes, at least in the hammock, simply because I personally cannot handle carrying a baby around 24 hours a day. Other (better) moms can, but it sends me into major screaming crying depression. So for my family's sake I am going to start experimenting earlier on, but still responding to my next baby's needs.


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## Nate (Sep 3, 2003)

Lilyka;























Also,







s.
I can't imagine how hard it must've been...


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

i've only read this far so far but had to respond ~

Quote:

Honesty I would try and force Lily to nurse because I equated nursing with going to sleep and figured if I could just get her to nurse she would go to sleep and after 2 hours of nursing I would be mad at her because she wasn't asleep yet. It wasn't pretty or very rational but it is hard to be rational when you are that tired BUt dang it in my mind any child, if nursed long enough would fall asleep. that is pretty much what I had been led to believe.








i've done stuff like that ~ "if i sing to him long enough, he'll sleep!! WHY ISN'T HE SLEEPING??!!"







:LOL

... now that i've read everything...
lilyka:







major







s and







's !!

Quote:

Thinking about it a bit, I think perhaps "refocussing" is a better term to use in my situation... (She's almost 14 months and rather, ahem, opinionated.)
that's a good term for it. my son was the same way (not w/ nursing, just in general w/ bedtime) at that age... bedtime would come around, and *boing boing boing* there was michael, out of his bed and bouncing around.


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## Nate (Sep 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *klothos*
i've done stuff like that ~ "if i sing to him long enough, he'll sleep!! WHY ISN'T HE SLEEPING??!!"

AAIGH!!! this one kills me! I have such nice memories of my bedtime as a child--I'd get one long story or 2 shorter ones, then 2 songs (they limited me, otherwise we'd be singing all night :LOL.
I looked forward to singing my dd to sleep so much...and she doesn't seem to like it!







. Maybe when she gets older--but for now she just sticks her hand in my mouth.

And when she was much smaller (6 months or so) I'd try singing every song in the book to get her to calm down for bed. I'd be standing, holding her & rocking her in my arms, singing everything I could thing of, and she'd be wailing in my arms b/c she wanted to nurse (except that she'd nurse & pop off every 2 seconds) or what have you...

But to my chagrin, I could never sing her to sleep.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Sleepymama,

DC was also "addicted" to the ball&#8230;ah, I'm glad that's a distant memory. This is a pathetic piece of advice but exercise balls do travel quite well. If you just let a little air out they will even fit in the back seat - I know from experience, lol.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:

I have such nice memories of my bedtime as a child--I'd get one long story or 2 shorter ones, then 2 songs
wow, that must have been so nice for you.







we never got read to at bedtime... or sung to... we would just kind of go, brush our teeth, get our PJ's on, get in bed and then have light's out. but then, by the time i came along (i'm the youngest) the eldest few were out on their own already and there were still 4 of us at home. i think by the end of the day my mom probably had no patience for reading or singing (my dad was hardly ever home, he was always at the firestation and working overtime).

i personally think bedtime rituals are so important. i love doing "bedtime business" (which is what he calls it) with my son.

but man... if i sing to him for longer than a minute or two, he actually interrupts now and tells me to leave. :: sigh :: he insists i sing to him, but... not for too long.


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## Sleepymama (Oct 9, 2003)

Identitycrisismama, that IS a pathetic piece of advice!!







Glad to know I wasn't alone. And we didn't go anywhere for other reasons too, but I know the ball travels, I took it to the hospital with me (the original one was my birth ball). I have some killer quads from those months though!


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## neveryoumindthere (Mar 21, 2003)

Lilyka our dd's are sooooooooooooooo exactly the same








i'll be pm'ing u sometime soon if thats ok.. honestly i feel the same way; the first 9 months of her life are a blur and i cant recall many sweet memories cuz of the sheer frustration/agony of getting her to sleep







: her eyes would be red and puffy, she'd tug at her ears, rub her eyes, i tried everything...*several* times i told my dh i give up and i truly dont want to be a mom







it was/is BRUTAL!

when it gets that far somethings gotta change,,,

no advice, just hugs and support to those who are having a hard time







:


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I'm sorry if I miss a question in this response; several similiar one's were asked of me and I'm choosing to respond with a general explaination. As I have said before, I am not interested in persuading the disinterested, I am here to offer insight for those who do not feel right leaving their baby to cry.

I am not going to pick apart or debate the following, it stands as something you can take or leave.

Solter had nothing to do with the ap movement, but was a student of Piaget, and became familiar with primal therapy during her work as a psychologist. Essentially, in primal therapy, adults pay someone to help them reconnect with and get out pre verbal frustration and rage~usually through crying and raging. In time, her experience with adult patients caused her to question the nature of crying when a person is still an infant.

Solter began by identifying something called Aware Crying. This is the crying many describe after a baby has been fed, changed, rocked, and yet, "nothing I do seems to work". Solter began to view this type of cry as a pre verbal attempt to release tension, frustration, and upset that was of an emotional, not physical, nature. Typical things which cause deep turmoil are birth trauma, stranger anxiety, physical discomforts, or simply the many small daily shocks that come to a tiny person in a world of new and often scary sights, sounds, and experiences.

Solter observed that when a baby is trying to communicate with aware crying, what they are doing is easily misinterpreted. The parent tries to get the baby to stop crying, and they refuse every attempt. The parent picks up the baby, and suddenly the baby cries harder. The parent thinks "Nothing I do is working, she doesn't even want me to pick her up, because when I do, she gets even more upset".

Solter observed that the exact opposite can be happening. The baby is trying to get out inner turmoil. They absolutely want to be heard when they do this. When someone is holding them, they want to cry harder and louder because they know they are being heard. If someone puts them down and leaves them, they may eventually stop crying, because no one is listening, or they may cry harder, trying to signal for someone to listen.

Solter suggested that the most effective response to aware crying is active listening. The most important aspect of active listening is not trying to stop the crying~no distractions from the crying, no rocking, patting, nursing, singing~usually the baby makes it clear they do not want that anyway. Instead, you sit quietly, looking the baby in the eyes if they are willing. You give them complete, quiet attention, with an occasional verbal encouragement that it is okay for them to cry.

Solter observed that typically a baby will wail louder and louder at first, inititally not making eye contact. Then, once they are sure of your quiet support, they tend to cry loudly while making more and more eye contact. Some babies cry for a short time, others longer, and usually finish by falling asleep, or becoming quiet, calm, and alert.

Solter encouraged parents to make active listening part of the daily routine with their babies. She observed that once babies were regularly supported in aware crying, they baby slept better and generally fretted and fussed less during the day.

It is unfortunate that only the baby who stops crying when held is believed to have been helped by the parent giving that attention. If the baby continues to cry, the person says "oh, I guess she wants to be alone". It goes against the common view of infants to believe that they might not want us to stop the crying, but instead, want us to hold them and listen.

Solter said that without active listening, a baby does not fully release their turmoil. Crying alone does not have the same theraputic benefits as crying in the arms of an active listener. Even though the crying itself can tire out an infant in their crib, and induce sleep, the experience does not feel safe and supported in the way that it does when someone is actively listening to them.

While Solter was not familiar with attachment parenting, I feel that her research and experience offers a critical insight that can help ap parents deal with this type of cry, in a way that feels safe, attentive, and secure for parent and baby.

I would encourage anyone of a chronic crier to read The Aware Baby. While I do not agree with Solter on every issue, I think her work with crying infants is groundbreaking, and has much to offer the ap community.

Solter also recognized that much of the work with this approach is getting parents to examine their own attitude and comfort level with crying. Often it is very hard for a person who was never listened to as a child, never allowed to complain or cry, to give that kind of attention to their baby. It seems unfair, unnecessary, to simply sit and listen as their baby cries. Adults often feel that the only acceptable response is one that stops the crying, or no response at all. It is very important for parents to be willing to think about their attitude towards crying, and how their own comfort level can make it difficult for them practice active listening. Once a parent of a crying baby was comfortable with active listening, they felt profoundly connected to and in tune with their child.

I would like to add two footnotes. First, this is my own summary of Solter's theories and there may be some things described differently than what she wrote. This is only how I viewed her approach to work.

Second, active listening can ONLY work when a parent is SURE there is no physical reason for the crying. No amount of active listening will comfort a sick or hungry baby, just as no amount of listening will help a sick or hungry person at any age. In fact letting a sick baby cry can harm them, in arms or in a crib. Learning to identify aware crying is critical to this approach.

As I said before, I have no interest in debating anyone. You will know if reading this has helped you in some way, given you an "a ha" sensation as it did for me.


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## newmainer (Dec 30, 2003)

Heartmama- thanks for the summary. Reading that helped me to clarify where you are coming from with many of your comments. The book has been recommended to me before its been on my list to read.

I did want to comment on your earlier post about challenging thoughts on the boards- I think people are constantly challenged, sometimes in subtle ways and sometimes in deeper, more earth-shattering ways. We can never know how something small may make a deep impact on another person. i have read several posts (on other threads) from mamas who adopted different practices/ changed/ began etc... from their experiences here. While something may not be radical for us, it can be for another. So, i appreciate your contributions and hope you continue, even if you think they might not be reaching many.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

I haven't read through all the replies just yet, but I thought I'd share my own experience with my sleep-challenged son. If only to provide some BTDT support to the OP.

Briefly, DS just DID NOT SLEEP for the first 5 months of his life. I'm not kidding. Okay, *maybe* during the afternoons in my lap on the couch for an hour or two here and there. But at night, forget about it. I literally did not get more than 1.5-2 hours of sleep in a row until after DS was 5 months. Then, it got a BIT better. I could then get *maybe* 2-3 hours in a row. But it wasn't consistent-EVER. A three hour stretch one night, and then the next up most of the night nursing, nursing, nursing.

It wasn't until DS was about 1 year that he slept for 3-4hour stretches, but it still was never consistent. We could never count on anything. There's a picture of me taken the night before DS's first b-day and I look like a prisoner of war. Sure, I was getting ready for a small party the next day, but GOSH, I looked like death warmed over.

Fast forward 1 year-DS now sleeps most nights "through the night". This is a small miracle. Okay, maybe a BIG miracle in our lives. I NEVER thought it would happen.

All this to say that in retrospect perhaps I would have done some things differently. I maybe would have let him fuss just a bit to see if he could settle himself. Don't get me wrong-I am anti-CIO. I believe in meeting my child's needs. And never is it more important than in that first year (IMHO and also from research). But we (DH and I) were just miserable. They let prisoners of war get at least 4 hours a night! I don't know how I made it through, I really don't.

I have a friend who has done the whole CIO/"sleep training" thing with both of her children. With the first, it was as early as three months. With the second it was 4-5 mos old. I completely disagree with this and I have to change the subject if she mentions how great her kids sleep (yeah, I think, b/c they know they're not gonna get any response out of you no matter what!).

So, that said, and in looking back on that first year, I don't think that I would CIO-EVER. But I would look for help that I wasn't reaching out for at the time. Is this possible for you? A coulple extra arms when you need it?

Dr. Jay Gordon talks about the needs of the family a bit-especially in his information on night weaning. And I like what he says about the older baby-over a year. He says that the baby should ALWAYS know that his needs are important, but at a certain point (over a year or whenever you think your baby is ready) the baby needs to know that the FAMILY has needs, too. So, he/she always gets a "vote" but it's not now the only vote. Of course, I am paraphrasing, but I think the message is clear. That first year is a blur, and it IS all about meeting your child's needs. So, IMHO, 6 mos would be way too young (ITA with Foobar) to consider CIO or some other forced method)for sleep. But it isn't too young to start considering your own needs, how this is affecting your family, etc. And start trying to incorporate some extra help or YOU time into the picture-perhaps to counteract the selfless stuff you just need to do and get through in those early months.

Sorry for the ramble...


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## crazy_eights (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
Second, active listening can ONLY work when a parent is SURE there is no physical reason for the crying. No amount of active listening will comfort a sick or hungry baby, just as no amount of listening will help a sick or hungry person at any age. Learning to identify aware crying is critical to this approach.

Here is my problem with the approach. What we momma's have stated again and again is that we could identify a physical need - sleep. And while I can read this info with interest and apply it to some situations, to apply it as dogma is, well, dogmatic.

Your implication that some mamas here are "less than AP" if they allow their children to fuss/cry in their beds EVER strikes me as dogmatic, and frankly insulting. What I see here are caring, loving AP mamas that are trying to listen to their children and their needs. But your posts have shown over and over again is that you seem to be convinced that you have *THE* way and that the rest of us have copped out with a "one size fits all" CIO approach. I am wary of ANYONE who thinks they have *the* way. Though my experience has been that "parenting karma" tends to come back in the form of a second child who breaks the "rules" and THAT is a far better teacher than anything I could say.

editted for gramar


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

Lilyka -




























Thank you so much for your insightful posts. And I must say I have been in that scary dark place with my feelings towards my daughter - and nothing *nothing* - is worse then that!

I think the moms here have really made the points I was trying to make and I applaude each of them for sharing.

Children are each different and individual - what one needs, another one dosen't.......it is just so ridulous to believe that you can treat each child the same and get the same results.

I also take offence to the idea that not physically responding to your childs cry's is detachment.......If you are really truly listening to your children, and have a good attachment with them - you can know and understand what they need - and sometimes they need "I can hear that you are needing some time alone, I will be back as soon as you need me...." Children really do feel that way sometime and we are doing them a diservice by not listening. NO one here would ever just ignore their child and I am confident that we as mothers are repsonsive enougth and 'ap' enought to know the difference!


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

mom2six, your offense at my posts are a reflection of your seeing what you want to see. I have not attacked you, or anyone else here.

I have shared what I think is helpful, and you are free to do the same.

You have passed a far harsher, more negative judgement of me than I have anywhere of anyone in this thread.

I have made a conscious effort to express my views without personalizing this or attacking anyone.

I see you coming very close to a personal attack of me in your post even though I have attacked no one here, and have only said what I believe, as thoughtfully and carefully as I can.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Lilyka, first I want to thank you for the openness and raw honesty of your long post back there. It truly made me ache for you and what you must have gone through.









I have a couple of questions, and I hope this doesn't come out as some sort of criticism of what you did, because lord knows I have read your post and can honestly say I have never been near to that level of stress..

As you said, many many sleep training books out there speak of the necessity of schedules and routines. You hear this over and over again. What I don't understand is how there can possibly be a biological correllary to this? What did people do before they had clocks and things to schedule? How did babies sleep when there was no crib or separate room to put them in? Has anybody thought about this and can anybody give me any explanation? Do you consider your "schedule-happy" kids to be a small minority, or representative of most babies. Would you counsel a new mama to put their kids on a schedule?

Second question: for those of you who have had to resort to sleep training, and even considered it or have done it from day one with baby number 2, would you recommend to a new mama that she follow your "method" to avoid the "risks" of sleep issues? Would you go so far as to say that this is what most, or more, babies need and that it would save alot of heartache and trouble if people sleep-trained from the start? What is your feeling regarding what you did in terms of the best "default" situation. Do you now believe that parenting your child to sleep "naturally" (a la AP books) is actually bad advice?

Heartmama: solter's work is very interesting, but I have one big problem with it. you didn't say how old these babies are, but I find it hard to believe that a baby only a few months old can think in so complex a manner. maybe i'd need to read the book, but my first reaction is that she's attributing adult behaviour to young babies. does a tiny baby actually know enough to think "hey, now someone is here to listen so I can let it all out"?


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## Sleepymama (Oct 9, 2003)

No, I don't think the ap methods for sleep are bad advice. But you have to understand that those of us who are basically shell shocked by the extreme sleep "issues" (ours were definite PROBLEMS as they affected all of our wakings lives as well) are a little hesitant about cosleeping and babywearing in particular. My DH doesn't want to cosleep with the next one. He holds our DS for all of his naps still when he's home, but he wants the next one to sleep next to our bed in the baby hammock. We had so many nights of horrible, horrible not sleeping, not settling except held in one specific uncomfortable postion on our chests, days spent trying desperately to get him to take a nap and then screaming at anyone who dared to call us on the phone. Unless you've been through the utter hell that is a HN baby who won't sleep, it's easy to give advice. The prisoner of war comment, oh I can relate to that! I had people I didn't even know asking me if I was OK, I looked that bad. I went into a deep depression and contemplated suicide several times because I didn't know how to change our situation and it was such utter terrible hell. I admit to being insanely jealous of mainstream parents who can put their kids in a room with a bottle and the baby goes to sleep and sleeps through the night. But I am also jealous of the lucky moms who cosleep with babies who sleep through the night. There are plenty of mainstream parents who have terrible sleep "issues" as well, that's why there are so many books. I think AP saved my baby's life, I really and truly do. I guess my "default" situation would be to get your DH involved in every aspect, including putting the baby to sleep. So many times mom gets utterly worn out because the baby won't let dad do anything. I am not sure I would have survived if my DH hadn't taken at least half of DS's care.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
As you said, many many sleep training books out there speak of the necessity of schedules and routines. You hear this over and over again. What I don't understand is how there can possibly be a biological correllary to this? What did people do before they had clocks and things to schedule? How did babies sleep when there was no crib or separate room to put them in? Has anybody thought about this and can anybody give me any explanation?

I wasn't there and am not an anthropologist, but I have a guess on this one. I suspect that primative people were more scheduled in their days. Not by the clock but by the sun. If you had to get up at sunrise each day to milk the cows (or catch the mastadon, depending on where we are on the timeline) and you went to sleep when it got dark (because there was no external light), then everything becomes more regulated. No weekends off to mess up the schedule. Not nearly so many "late nights out". And we really don't know where or how babies napped. Maybe one central caregiver, in which case she didn't hold and nurse all the babies at once! Maybe always on mommy's back. Its sort of hard to tell what actually happened.


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## Smilemomma (Nov 19, 2001)

I really believe that AP is not about a list of "rules" like no CIO, sleep sharing, extended breastfeeding, gentle discipline, etc., but is about truly listening to your child and what *that particular child* needs at that particular moment. That will change from child to child and from day to day even, with the same child. My child's cries after a long day at the county fair are going to mean a different thing to me than those after a day lounging around at home. Individual circumstances play into this as well as individual personalities.

That said, I also believe that many of the things we associate with AP (like those mentioned above) come about as a result of our listening to our child in the moment. So I would never leave my child alone crying, I can't imagine the circumstances, because none of my three children has the temperment to support that.

We get into dangerous waters because, after all, perspective is reality. "I the mother need to sleep, so therefore this child needs to sleep". Or just plain "I need this child to sleep".

With my oldest dd, I was a SAHM. If she woke up at 3 am to play, cool! we played. Whatever, I didn't need to get up in the morning, we'd sleep in. My gentle MIL suggested that I consider "putting her on a schedule", but I was aghast. Against the AP "rules", no schedule for her, she would make her own schedule.

When she finally did sleep, it was *always* with my nipple in her mouth. Always. If we could find old posts here on Mothering, you'd find posts from me desperate for ways to unlatch her. She'd be soundly asleep, nipple in mouth for three hours (*three hours*!!) and the gentlest attempt at sliding my nipple out, try a binkie, here's my finger, nada. Back to square one.

Did I consider CIO? Heck yeah. I also remembered that it takes 4 minutes to suffocate someone with a pillow, but only 2 to knock them unconscious ...







. I didn't do either method







.

I just met her needs at the moment and you know what? They went away. It took three years. Yes, you read that right, three years. But you know, it was worth it. She is the greatest sleeper at 8 years old, just let her know it's bedtime and off she trots. While it totally and unequivocally sucked during that time, in the long long timeline of my life those three years were a blip. Nothing. I even laugh now about it, although it was my biggest source of desperation at the time. I truly feel like I have given her a gift, the gift of good sleep, and that will last her lifetime. She needed a lot to fall into sleep, and now that she knows she has it, she does it easily. I firmly believe that the widespread American sleep problem (insomnia, poor sleep, etc) is rooted in the parenting philosophies of past generations. You don't see aborigines in Africa pacing the forest unable to sleep, looking for their sleeping pills.

When my twins were born, I was fully expecting another three years of being attached (literally) all night by the nipples. I got the shock of my life when my boy *unlatched* (unlatched! DD had never done that in her entire life!), rolled over, and was sound asleep. My twin daughter, too.

Did I roll them back over and try to reattach them? Of course not. I met their needs, and then I was free to post on the computer!

They still fall asleep better when I lie down with them (they are 3.5 now), although they can go to sleep (eventually, if they leave each other alone) on their own now at times. They are growing and changing and I must grow and change with them. I fully expect them to have the same wonderful sleep pattern that my oldest dd has, because I met their needs.

I cannot speak to a child whose mother feels the child does not require their presence; I've never had a child like that. Mom2six, I have the greatest respect for you, because it was in having my SECOND child that I learned what it is to be a mother. I knew the "rules" of my one and only, but never learned the dance you do to learn and meet the constantly varying needs of any other child, AND work that in with the needs of the others. And my own. SIX! Wow.









As for schedules, I refused to put my twins on a schedule as is practically forced down the throat of any mom of multiples. "It's the only way you'll survive!" I nursed each on their own demand; sometimes that was together, but in the early days, it was separately. As one would drift off, the other would wake. Those days are a blur, but I wouldn't change them for the world. I feel I did what each child needed (back to the "AP as Martyr" thread







: ) and I had individual time with each of them. I was also on call virtually 24 hours a day for months on end. It was grueling, but it was over within a year, they adapted to our family schedule, and again, a mere blip on my life timeline.

I would say not to put a child on a schedule, but to make an effort to acclimate the child to the schedule of the family. It is the schedule of their world, after all. They must work in the world, not the other way around. How much easier it would have been if I had listened to my MIL in the early days. Instead of throwing up the wall at the word "schedule" because it didn't fit my ideas of AP, I could have seen that rather than a "every 4 hours you will eat, and not before" a schedule can also mean lying down and getting started on sleeping at 9, or even 10:00, rather than 1 am. There's not much to do with an infant outside the living room at 3 am, after all. There's a wide world out there, and they need to fit in it. And that fit needn't be anti-AP.

Although the original poster didn't ask this, this thread's kind of evolved, so I'll put my vote in that no, CIO is NOT AP. I don't believe that there are "variations" on it, or that there is such an animal as "modified CIO". They're either crying it out, or they're not.

My opinion (not that anyone asked, :LOL) is also that some of the moms who've posted here have NOT made their child CIO. I don't believe a little fussing is CIO. My twin dd screamed like you were skinning her alive when I brushed her teeth, but I did it anyway. CIO? Naw, she was just mad. I talked to her the entire time, explaining how it was important that we scrub off the cavity bugs because I loved her and I didn't want them to hurt her, etc, etc. Eventually she learned that toothbrushing is part of our daily health care, and she enjoys it now. Is it because she feels I was unresponsive to her screaming? I don't think so. I also don't believe that saying, "well, she clearly doesn't want to brush her teeth, I won't force it on her, violate her will, whatever" is being a good parent. It's my responsibility to take care of her as well as teach her, and AP helps me do that as gently as I can. By taking the principles of AP and applying them to listening to HER at THAT time, not going by the book.

Then you get into TCS and I won't go there


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## Smilemomma (Nov 19, 2001)

And I have to say that I found this scary, especially coming from a moderator:

Quote:

I have been so happy to see how this thread has gone. It makes me feel a lot safer sending my more mainstream-oriented friends here for advice!
I'm happy how the thread has gone too, I also am not crazy about "woo hoo, we all believe the same thing", preach to the choir type threads, but wow.

Mothering is based on Attachment Parenting. This thread, while about CIO, is centered around how CIO may or may not fit into an AP lifestyle. Mainstream moms have a million sites to go to to talk about how they love it, how life is so much better now that their children don't expect anything from them, but not here.

Please, not here.


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## grnbn76 (Mar 3, 2004)

I haven't read the replies here yet....but I just had to add this thought...
Whether or not it is ever the lesser of two evils, I can't imagine trying CIO with such a young baby...and here is my reason...
The concept of object permanence isn't fully mastered until at least age 1. That's why we play peek a boo, why we hide toys under blankets, and why we talk to our children when we leave the room. No matter how many times we play these games, they generally don't "get it" until 12 mos or so.
Until this concept is mastered, a young baby doesn't understand that what is gone will come back...the young baby doesn't even realize that what is gone still exists!!
So I don't understand how anyone can advocate CIO with a child under 1, considering the fact that they don't even realize that you are going to come back when you leave them to cry alone in their room. For all that baby knows, you are leaving them forever.

Just a thought....


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:

Mothering is based on Attachment Parenting. This thread, while about CIO, is centered around how CIO may or may not fit into an AP lifestyle. Mainstream moms have a million sites to go to to talk about how they love it, how life is so much better now that their children don't expect anything from them, but not here.

Please, not here.
i feel led to point out that no person on this thread that has said how "CIO" has fit into their own lives has taken a mainstream view of it, at all. it seems to me like the emphasis from everyone here has been tuning into what your child needs. i think this fits perfectly with what AP is about, and has every right to be on this board.

Quote:

The concept of object permanence isn't fully mastered until at least age 1
i'm not sure what you meant by this, considering the idea of object permanence is what leads to games like peekaboo. when a child learns to grasp an object hidden under a blanket (or to look for it), that's when you know they've developed an idea of object permanence. i also don't know what you mean by it being "fully mastered." in all the psych and child dev classes i took, i never heard it spoken of in that way. a child either "gets it" or they don't. i can't speak for any other child, but my own son "mastered" this around 5 months. at 10 months (when he finally started crawling), we started playing hide-and-seek and he'd actively come looking for me. this demonstrates a complete grasp of object permanance: he knew i still existed and that he could come and find me.

Quote:

Until this concept is mastered, a young baby doesn't understand that what is gone will come back...the young baby doesn't even realize that what is gone still exists!!
it seems to me like you're trying to use something in your post that you don't fully understand: a child *can't* care that what is gone might not come back if they don't realize that what is gone still exists.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

First I wanted to preface thiswith lilyka is anm incredible child in every respect. I think her sleeping problems at least partly have to o with her incredible mind that is always working overtime. She is magnificent in every way and I am so happy those better traits are finally able to show.

I also hadn't mentioned this before but it was more than her being cranky and clumsy. She also started losing weight at 6 months old. becuase she was always awake she was burning far more caloris thatn she took in.

I consider acceptable sleep to be at least one hour naps and 2-3 hour stretches at night. see I am not shooting even very high here. Lily slept for no more than 10-20 minute stretches during the day and usually only once or twice a day and then only for hour stretches at night and then only for a max of 6 hours at night. So she really wasn't sleeping. period. and that was starting at birth.

And just to be very very clear - I shouted at her, blamed her for all evil in the world and constantly questioned what it was she thought she was missing but I never NEVER ever struck or shook my baby. Just to be clear. I got kinda rambly in my last post









So on to your questions.

*As you said, many many sleep training books out there speak of the necessity of schedules and routines. You hear this over and over again. What I don't understand is how there can possibly be a biological correllary to this? What did people do before they had clocks and things to schedule? How did babies sleep when there was no crib or separate room to put them in? Has anybody thought about this and can anybody give me any explanation? Do you consider your "schedule-happy" kids to be a small minority, or representative of most babies. Would you counsel a new mama to put their kids on a schedule?* I think NCSS has so many good things to say about this. I think routiens ad rituals, even daily routiens have nothing to do with a clock. just a predictable flow so that evryone knows what to expect next. and cues and lead ins for when things do get off kilter to ease baby into what is coming next. The only thing we really do at the same time every day is nap. and by same time I mean between 12 and 2 preferably 1:00. and bedtime at 8:00. We are easing into a regular get up time (actually she gets up at the same stinking but crack oif dawn early time every day. I am working on getting up with her







) I think most babies have a schedule or routien that poarents oftenaren't aware of because they are too busy to notice. I really would recommend stopping evrything and stayinghome regardless of how hard it is and just observing, even writing down for a couple of weelks what your babies habits are. Very few babys are really all that spontaneous. And what does it hurt to try to tweak things a bit. Some babies are pretty plyable and will go a little longer between this and shorter between thatif it helps the family run smoother and more calmly and if everything around baby is more smooth and calm how could baby not pick up on that vibe and be more calm and easy going.

*Second question: for those of you who have had to resort to sleep training, and even considered it or have done it from day one with baby number 2, would you recommend to a new mama that she follow your "method" to avoid the "risks" of sleep issues? Would you go so far as to say that this is what most, or more, babies need and that it would save alot of heartache and trouble if people sleep-trained from the start? What is your feeling regarding what you did in terms of the best "default" situation. Do you now believe that parenting your child to sleep "naturally" (a la AP books) is actually bad advice?*

I have typed this answer several times. I have decided I would recommend trying to instill good sleep habits first and examine where you want your baby to be in a ayear? in two years? What I would fear from a first time mom is that she gets sucked into the sleep vortex right away and decided the whole of AP is whack and ezzo made some good points and throws out the babe with the bath without relizing that these things could have been avioded and can be gently changed the earlier you start and that you can still be attatched and dojn't have to ruled by the clock or weird training rituals. I guess I don't consider what I dids with Ava as sleep training. I just pictured how I wanted it to be and started there to see if she would play along. for the most part she did. we hit some bumpy roads but since she wasn't nursing to sleep they wer easy to overcome (for example when she grew out of her bassinet it really disrpted things but it only took about 6 weeks to get back to right). I think the NCSS is so balanced and offeres so many good insights I would definitely recommend it over anything that was strictly "the only way is rocking and nursing or your cruel because all babies absoilutely need that to feel loved" It also offers nice gentle ways to build the habits you can live with. My biggest advice was don't get hung up on any one philosophy stay open to whatever will help you and your baby grow close and be gentle with each other. I think Ap has a lot of good stuff to offer and I would deinitely recommend someone read it especially over some of the other stuff out there but I also think it paints an overly rosy picture and promises really big payoffs that many many people I know who starte dthier parenting journey when I did have been dissapointed with the problems that have arisen because of it. I have a found a happy attatched place somewhere closer to the middle. On the other hand I really appreciate that it esposes attatching to your children, really listen to them andmeeting htier needs and being gentle with them. it also sets up an impossibly high standard.
and tends to be very child focused. I am more family focused. Anyway t has its good points and weaknesses. I would definitely recommend at least trying to start with the best sleeping arrangement possible. and i do think it possible to , well I know it is, i do it, to co-sleep and still not be dependant on the breast for sleeping. Ut then again if all my best efforts at that failed I would be the first person to pop a boob in her mouth, roll over and go to sleep. gotta do what you gotta do. but I consider that a last resort gotta get some sleep now senario. I am rambling again, mostly I would trell them to keep an open mind and that getting sleep is more imnportant thanphilosophies but be ans gentle as possible and when possible start as you mean to continue.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

see this is what happens when your child won't sleep. you have lots of time on your hands to ponder the ins and outs of sleep issues and what constitutes them and what doesn't and what would you do . . . .


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:

see this is what happens when your child won't sleep. you have lots of time on your hands to ponder the ins and outs of sleep issues and what constitutes them and what doesn't and what would you do
:LOL


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Piglet asked:

~solter's work is very interesting, but I have one big problem with it. you didn't say how old these babies are, but I find it hard to believe that a baby only a few months old can think in so complex a manner. maybe i'd need to read the book, but my first reaction is that she's attributing adult behaviour to young babies. does a tiny baby actually know enough to think "hey, now someone is here to listen so I can let it all out"?

I would encourage you to read the book. Keep in mind that research on the human brain has suggested that from about 7 months gestation, the human brain begins to record everything it perceives. While a newborn would probably not be thinking in semantics, there is every reason to believe that a newborn can *feel* as deeply as anyone else. I think it is reasonable to consider they process their feelings in a way that is generally consistent with all humans. Human newborns are highly advanced at birth in communication skills~they make eye contact, smile, cry, can be surprised, angry etc. I think a human newborns greatest survival skill is probably their advanced social nature at birth.

Again, I would read the book. I appreciate such a thoughtful question to my post. As I said, I have no need to debate it, but trying to summarize an entire book (which I haven't looked at for a long time), I know I didn't make everything as clear as I could.


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## Chanley (Nov 19, 2001)

i am holding a sleeping babe so I will be brief but one thing I noticed was a relationship with food allergies/intolerances and sleep.

my dd has MAJOR food issues (celiac etc...) and the only time we have sleep issues is when she has had food she is not supposed to have.
On those nights, she will either pee the bed or wake up stumbling around whining and is hard to get back to bed.

She was not an easy infant. She screamed and I had those moments where I was angry and helpless. Luckily, that is when I would hand her off and go for a breather. I remember sitting in my chair holding her as she screamed for literally hours, mentally going on vacation. There was a nice little beach chair in the Riviera wiht a young waiter who brought me hard liquor of my choice, I sat in that chair during many screaming sessions during the first year of my daughters life. I would just hold her and she would scream until she was exhausted. She did not need to be put down, she needed to get the poison out of her body. Little did I know, but what I was eating was killing her. It has taken me 3 years to track down the foods. I think we have a complete list now but cannot be sure. There are still many that could be put on the list of no-no foods.

but when lilyka mentioned losing weight, bells went off in my head.


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## Smilemomma (Nov 19, 2001)

Klothos, I didn't mean that *this thread* doesn't belong here, or that these mothers don't belong here.

What I meant was that I did not want Mothering to turn into a mainstream site.

I apologize for rambling on, but geesh, am I that tired that I'm making no sense?


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:

Klothos, I didn't mean that *this thread* doesn't belong here, or that these mothers don't belong here.
*ah* i misunderstood.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Because the title of this tread is "Is CIO Ever the Lesser of two Evils" I think most of us are admitting that CIO is not a great option, but, that given the choices a family has - CIO may be the best choice. I think it's great that we're here helping families with challenging choices and I don't see why this topic should get any less support ~ MDC is full of discussions about less than ideal choices. When a family only has "Evil" choices it is not acceptable to just tell them that all of their choices suck equally and that they'll get no support here, we need to continue to offer support and ideas and that is why I think this thread is great...

I really liked the idea that Heartmama brought up about active listening. I think one of the best tips when it comes to a crying baby is to try to listen as much as possible. That is why it is one of my pet peeves when I get the feeling that people are primarily focused on stopping babies from crying, which is what worries me about the anti-CIO message - that babies should not be allowed to cry. I think if we get too wrapped up in making it stop we can't listen. I know that in infancy I used to stick the breast in DC's mouth, bounce, sing, walk, sling&#8230;anything to get her to stop crying - I was doing everything but listen (probably because I didn't "speak" her distinctive cries yet). Anyway, now DC and I speak the same language and I feel very in tune with her needs. I know when she needs to be "helped" to cry either through active listening or by being left alone (left alone in the sense that she wants to be disengaged, not necessarily physically alone in the bed or room).

The problem I have with description of Solter's research is that she seems to be talking about _ONE of the things that CAN be happening_ when a child is crying for "non-physical" reasons. Great, I have absolutely no doubt that this is one of the things that could be going on and I think it's a great tip for parents to keep in mind when the child is _seems_ to not want to be engaged. The problem that I think many of us have been wondering is about when the baby truly does want to be somewhat disengaged and how to identify that and what to do when that is happening. Another problem that isn't addressed by child development theories is how to meet the needs of children when you simply don't have the resources. It's great to know what's 100% best in an ideal world ~ but that's not where most parents live, which is where the problem of choosing the "lesser of two evils" comes into play.

It's not that I think Solter's work is irrelevant, because I don't and I appreciate the information but I just see this as one possible solution that may or may not "work" and one that may be difficult for some people to impliment. BUT, because of its complete non-harmful nature it would be one of the things I tried first if I were the OP or in a similar situation.

OP, I may also invite your oldest DC to participate in active listening and also help him to understand and be "relaxed" about any crying that may need to happen. That way maybe you could all be together. I know my DC finds crying babies fascinating, lol.

I guess that for me, the crying would not be the biggest issue but I tend to agree with the general sentiment a baby who is in distress because they need comfort should have access to you. Is there a way to allow that to happen but still be proactive in making some changes?


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I’ve been spending some time really reading and listening to all the posts and now I have a really embarrassing admission – from what I’m reading I don’t think I really know what CIO is. I’m a dork, sorry.


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## fyrflymommy (Jan 20, 2003)

cio is when you plunk the baby down in the crib and leave the room and let him cry alone......right?


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fyrflymommy*
cio is when you plunk the baby down in the crib and leave the room and let him cry alone......right?

Actually, I would say "not quite". CIO is a method to train a child to go to sleep without parental assistance that involves putthing the child to bed while awake and actively ignoring the child's cries. In some definitions this may or may not "allow" a parent to return to comfort the crying child without picking him/her up. This process is repeated until the child learns to sleep when placed in his/her crib or bed. The parent is committed to allowing the child to cry until sleep comes, regardless of the amount of time.

Note that I found virtually no one in this discussion who has actively ignored their babies cries. We have listened to make sure they are angry/frustration and not "I need you" cries. No one has allowed crying for any length of time (whereas some CIO "experts" advocate allowing as long as 6-8 HOURS). No one here has done any sort of CIO unless they were to a point of being dangerous to themselves and their children or the child has responded better to being put to bed rather than rocked or nursed to sleep. Actually, I would say that none of the posts which admit to some sort of "CIO" type arrangement have practiced actual CIO.


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## Nate (Sep 3, 2003)

Oh wow, so much to respond to, and I haven't gone through all the responses since yesterday...

Klothos, it *is* nice to have those memories of bedtime. My brother is 10 yrs older than me, and my sister 7 yrs older, and they used to come into my room for bedtime songs too. So I'd love to get the same thing established w/ dd. I had friends who just had the "okay, it's time to brush your teeth & get in bed" thing, and I always felt so sorry for them! I tried the rituals when dd was an infant, but she was way too young. Books did nothing for her, of course, and singing just made her mad. But I tried singing a couple of songs last night as we settled in to nurse, and for once she didn't try to make me stop. So maybe there's hope! :LOL

Heartmama, thanks for the summary of Solter. That's really interesting, and definitely something to try if we have dc #2. I wish I'd known some of that earlier!

Piglet, you ask about "sleep training" from birth w/ 2nd children. My interpretation of what sleep training means is much more of an Ezzo sort of thing--get the baby on a schedule asap, etc. I think what Lilyka is talking about is more of an establishment of sleep _habits_, on the parents' part as much as anything else. NCSS talks about this, IIRC--how it's important for your baby to get used to going to sleep in different ways & different places.

My problem was always that the books talked about nursing (or rocking, or whatever) your child until she's sleepy but not asleep, and THEN putting her down wherever you want her, but when DD was younger (I'd say from 2-9 months) we'd nurse & nurse & nurse & do other rituals, but she *NEVER GOT SLEEPY.* Instead, she'd get more & more awake, even though I could tell she was tired. You know how they'll be wide awake & playing, but have the attention span of a gnat? That was her. This is why on occasion I would finally just say "goodnight sweetie," kiss her, and leave. Made her mad, but she did go to sleep fairly quickly (after yelling at me). Would I do it again? Probably not--I know more now, and would like to think I have the resources to avoid that situation again. But it's hard to tell from this seat what I'd do faced w/ the same situation--esp. if I had not only an infant but a toddler.


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## Nate (Sep 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
(whereas some CIO "experts" advocate allowing as long as 6-8 HOURS).

Oh, god, I know--and then there's the "some babies will cry so much that they'll throw up. If this happens, it's okay to go in & in a business-like manner clean up baby & crib, but then put baby back & leave."

















It makes me cry just thinking about it...


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

wow. this thread is just getting better and better!

lilyka, I cannot tell you how much my respect for you has grown in this thread. thank you so much for taking the time to post so much. i loved your last post, and thanks for replying to my questions so well. I've really come to view what you've accomplished in a completely different manner than I did when you first mentioned it. I feel ashamed on the one hand for jumping to conclusions initially, yet grateful that I got a chance to hear more of it.









ahh...schedules. yes, when I think of this, I think of "you will eat NOW or not for another 3 hours" or "you will sleep NOW, like it or not". I really, really dislike this because it basically establishes beforehand what the baby will and will not be doing, with no attempt to learn from the baby's cues.

now what lilyka has described is actually the first time I've been able to hear the word "routine" and not shudder. I think it's particularly important to follow the advice of spending some time just watching your baby. I also know, that it is sometimes easy to miss cues, and end up with wailing child on your hands. I think this explained alot of the "newborn 7 - 10 pm crying spells" we had (though thankfully, they were few compared to other mamas I knew). I simply hadn't read her cues early enough, and by that time it was too late - she was too distraught. I know for the first year of DD's life, I followed her lead. She slept when she fell alseep, and I didn't try to get her to sleep otherwise. She nursed whenever she wanted, for as long as she wanted. Her sleep habits went through phases at times, and changed during the first year, yet at the same time her core patterns were the same (late to bed, late to rise - which was fine with me b/c I'm not a morning person). It wasn't until she was 1 and I saw that she was staying up even though she was needing sleep that I tried to establish some sort of routine. It was all done gently, and with careful monitoring of how she handled it. There was a time at first when I could bring her to bed at a set time, and we would just hang out there, even if it took 45 minutes, until she nursed to sleep. She fussed many times, but I knew she could handle it. We tried it again not long ago, and it was a big mistake. It was obvious from her reaction that she was not handling it, and I didn't like the way it was going. We immediately stopped and switched to "plan B", which seemed to work better.

Funny, I might never have used that word "routine" if not for Lilyka's explanation of Ava's "routine". My DD naps at pretty much the same time every day, but give or take an hour, and DH tries hard to stick to that, since it seems to work best all around (luckily, you can bet money she'll fall asleep in the car if it's anywhere close to naptime, so his solution is to just go run some errands with her). And we do try to do bedtime pretty much same time each night, though again it can vary by as much as 2 hours. I never thought of this as a routine, I figured it had to be more strict than that.

Oh, and thanks to whoever (evanandannasmom?) who replied to my "biological correllary" question. That's a great answer - i'm sure hunter/gatherer types actually did lead a fairly structured life, now that I think about it. plus there were always so many helping hands around...

smilemomma: wonderful posts! I, too, get concerned when threads look to be going in the "whatever works for your family" direction, b/c that just seems to be the pat answer to everything in the "mainstream" world. I'm seeing here, however, that it's going much deeper than that. Everybody seems to be emphasizing following baby's lead on this, etc. I'm getting more comfortable with it!


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## Nate (Sep 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smilemomma*
Mothering is based on Attachment Parenting. This thread, while about CIO, is centered around how CIO may or may not fit into an AP lifestyle. Mainstream moms have a million sites to go to to talk about how they love it, how life is so much better now that their children don't expect anything from them, but not here.
Please, not here.


SmileMomma;
I think what she meant (and she can correct me if I'm wrong) is that often when people have "mainstream" type questions (such as "is it okay to CIO?") they worry about posting here b/c they don't want to get a flat, aggressive/judgmental response such as "absolutely not, and any mother who would consider such a thing is a bad mother!" (I want to be clear, I don't think anyone has really responded that way here.) But this thread has been very thoughtful & non-judgmental, and that makes her feel that if she sends her mainstream friends here they'll get good, thoughtful advice, and won't get jumped on.

At least that's how I read it.









I don't think we're in any danger of having this board turn into a mainstream board.


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

I was just laying in bed with my wee one thinking about this thread while waiting for her to fall asleep.

For those who choose CIO variations for their child- how did you get them to stay in bed? Three times while I was in there with her she tried to get out of bed- if I had left her to soothe herself to sleep she would have been up playing in a heartbeat. :LOL

Is the topic of CIO being a valid parenting option being debated, or whether CIO can be an AP friendly action? Because API does list Sleep sharing as one of the 8 ideals of attachment parenting. Can you sleep-share and CIO?

Parenting is all about picking and choosing what works for your family and your ideals. Attachment parenting is a defined type of parenting. Can you pick and choose what AP things to follow and which not to follow and still call yourself AP? Well that is a matter of perspective. Can you pick and choose which tenants of buddhism to follow and still call yourself buddhist? Perspective.

I always find the API "8 ideals" accordign to API to be extremely humbling. There is no mention of cloth diapers or wooden toys. No mention of organic foods or vegetarian eating. The 8 ideals are: Preparation for Childbirth, Emotional Responsiveness, Breastfeed your Baby, Baby Wearing, Shared sleep, Avoid frequent and prolonged separations from your baby, Positive Discipline, and Maintain balance in your family life

Does CIO fall into this category? IMO, no... Does someone have the right to choose CIO or some variation of it if it fits their family? Sure.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nate*
SmileMomma;
...and that makes her feel that if she sends her mainstream friends here they'll get good, thoughtful advice, and won't get jumped on.

At least that's how I read it.











That's how I read it also ~ and I agree with her. I know that I would love to feel free to send my more "mainstream" friends here because I know how much support and information is available but I also worry about doing so and that sucks.

Sorry, off topic, I know ~ but I also feel strongly that when parents (yes, even "AP" parents get lost and confused) are stuck they need our support most.

I also feel that this thread is balanced and supportive (not necessarily of any particular practice, but of the parents and children) and that is a wonderful thing.

Now, turning this conversation back over to people who know more about CIO&#8230;

Okay, not I'm really a dork. Rainbow and I cross posted and now it looks like I'm introducing myself...


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rainbow*
For those who choose CIO variations for their child- how did you get them to stay in bed?

I guess I don't really qualify for the CIO approach but I definitely need to "turn off" sometimes. We co-sleep so forcing physical separation is not even an option for us but I do usually have to stop interacting as a certain point in the evening. We have a "routine" something that was/is constantly advised of us and that does seem to help DC (I was under the impression that a routine was advised in "mainstream" and "AP" thinking though). When the routine is finished I "check out" by limiting interaction. I used to read but lately I MDC on my lap top in bed with DC.

I guess I always thought this was CIO (if she was crying, although she doesn't usually lately) and that's why I was participating in this thread.

There was a time where DC *would* be crying and we would be alone together in the dark. I knew she was tired (I was tired too) and that the crying was something that she wanted to be doing. I don't really see a big difference with what I do/did (which I think was the best choice) and the same approach with a child that sleeps happily alone ~ I can't relate but I can understand.


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## Nate (Sep 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rainbow*
I was just laying in bed with my wee one thinking about this thread while waiting for her to fall asleep.

For those who choose CIO variations for their child- how did you get them to stay in bed? Three times while I was in there with her she tried to get out of bed- if I had left her to soothe herself to sleep she would have been up playing in a heartbeat. :LOL

Is the topic of CIO being a valid parenting option being debated, or whether CIO can be an AP friendly action? Because API does list Sleep sharing as one of the 8 ideals of attachment parenting. Can you sleep-share and CIO?
...
The 8 ideals are: Preparation for Childbirth, Emotional Responsiveness, Breastfeed your Baby, Baby Wearing, Shared sleep, Avoid frequent and prolonged separations from your baby, Positive Discipline, and Maintain balance in your family life

Well, to answer your practical question, we do a combination--our version of CIO started when we got a crib. (We got a crib b/c we were having SO MUCH trouble getting her fall asleep in bed w/ us.) So we'd start her out at night in her crib, then at her first waking we'd move her into bed w/ us.

I think most people would say that if you're in bed w/ baby, and s/he is crying to sleep, it's _not_ CIO, b/c you're there soothing & responding to the baby. You just may not be giving her what she *wants* at that moment (to nurse, play, whatever).

As far as the 8 ideals go, I think you *have* to adapt somewhat to your situation. I tried baby-wearing--dd hated the sling. As a newborn she howled when put into it (although who knows, it may be that that was b/c I was a big klutz w/ it.) She was somewhat okay w/ it once she could do kangaroo or hip straddle, but it just never has been her favorite thing. I think she might like it now, as a toddler--but now I can't find it!

And I really wanted an unmedicated birth, but dd chose to begin her arrival the day that we'd had our wonderful old dog biopsied for cancer, and I'd had a horrible cold & been crying for 3 days b/c of the dog, and had about 5 hours of sleep the night before, and dh wasn't doing much better--and we were both just plain *exhausted* even before I went into labor, and ended up w/ epidural, pitocin, amniotomy, and c-section.

And b/c of low supply due to a breast reduction, we had to supplement w/ formula (although we're still nursing, yay!).

And I'd love to avoid prolonged separations, but I'm the one w/ a job, and I had to go back at 3 months (which now seems impossibly early to me). DH is a WAHD, so we've adapted as best we can. (OT, but it drove me NUTS when I was getting ready to go back to work, and I'd be reading the Sears and LLL books for advice on pumping & other preparation, and the first thing they'd say is "Maybe you need to re-examine your priorities; maybe it's not so important for you to work right now." RRRGH. Anyway...)

So if you match me up to the 8 ideals, I'm at about 60%, maybe less. No, I'm not the poster mom for AP--but GD, emotional responsiveness, extended bf, etc.--we aim for all of these things.

Okay, gotta stop rambling & do some work...


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

I dont' really think being with a child as they cry is CIO. CIO to me implies they are crying it out alone.

My dd sometimes gets stressed out and cries. So do I. It feels good. To me I liken it to my relationship with DH. If I fell on the bed sobbing would I want him to come comfort me? come over to me but tell me to stop crying? or walk away and let me cry it out? Well, I'd want him to hold me and tell me he loves me and let me cry as much as I needed. So that is what I do with my children- even if it is less convenient for me and takes longer to find resolution... whatever the price may be, I treat them how I would want to be treated in a similar situation.

Has anyone who supports CIO tried the no cry sleep sollution first? I also want to clairfy that I don't think every person out there should be 100% AP by rules- or they are lousy. I am just saying that whether or not CIO is a valid option and whether or not CIO is AP are two different arguments.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Something I thought of reading Rainbow's questions and the responses.

When you are dealing with a child who is physically capable of getting up off the bed, going out into the living room, and playing - I think you're in a different league than dealing with a baby who is only a few months old.

I can totally see trying to limit late-night playtimes with a toddler. I, personally, can't see doing it with a 4 month old baby. When DD was about that age, she went through a phase that lasted about 10 days where she was up until 2, 3 or 4 in the morning. She would wail if I tried to lay down with her in bed, but if I stayed up with her playing with toys, reading books, etc she was happy as a clam. As much as I desperately wanted to go to bed, I felt that there was nothing I could do, and nothing I *should* do, b/c DD really wasn't distressed and I felt she was FAR too young to be expected to understand that "nighttime isn't for playing". Fortunately, we weathered that period and before I knew it she was back to her usual bedtime of about 11 pm (which worked great for us since she was rarely up before 9 am). However, my DD is now 22 months old and very much understands the concept of limits. She understands that it is not okay to play in the middle of the night, although this is something I just recently realized, lol. I think she may have been ready for this lesson a few months ago, but maybe not much earlier than 18 months.

Anyways, just wanted to comment that I think the age distinction is really important here.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Like Piglet, I think that keep the age of the child in mind is really important. If you look at those of us who do something other than the ideal rock/nurse/co-sleep thing, it appears that most of us are working with older babies and, in my case at least, a toddler. Even the "sleep training experts" don't advocate CIO with a less than 6 mo. old baby. I don't know if its "CIO" if the child is 2 or not.

I think that meeting the ideals of AP has to be flexible. Note that they are called ideals, not absolutes. And since one of them is to maintain balance in family life, that would seem to imply that there is some room for compromise. I certainly wouldn't want to say that someone who couldn't breastfeed because the child was adopted, for example, could not be an AP mom. Frankly, I wouldn't want to say that a Dad couldn't be an AP parent because he couldn't breastfeed either.

I feel like this conversation suddenly started toward the "prove you are AP enough to post here" groove, which is where I always get uncomfortable.


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## Nate (Sep 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
I feel like this conversation suddenly started toward the "prove you are AP enough to post here" groove, which is where I always get uncomfortable.

Whoops, I think that was my fault. I don't want it to go there either. I guess my point was that there are often very concrete reasons that people can't live up to the "8 ideals" of AP, but still aspire to it in general (I hope that makes sense). As you said, they're ideals, not absolutes, and once you start saying "well, you can't be AP b/c you don't do x, y, or z" you start getting into the cliqueishness (sp?) that some people complain about here.

Back to sleep solutions...


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rainbow*
..My dd sometimes gets stressed out and cries. So do I. It feels good. To me I liken it to my relationship with DH. If I fell on the bed sobbing would I want him to come comfort me? come over to me but tell me to stop crying? or walk away and let me cry it out? Well, I'd want him to hold me and tell me he loves me and let me cry as much as I needed. ....

That's great that you know what you need. But why make the leap that that is what everyone needs?

Sometimes I want company when I cry but oftentimes I need to be alone. I can't process my issues as well/as quickly with company. Sometimes I just need to have a hard cry and be done with it, no audience allowed.

I don't think it's such a leap to imagine that babies, like all other kinds of people, have different needs.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Pugmadmama, I was thinking a similar thing when I read Rainbow’s post. I doubt that she was thinking that because she needs those things we all do but I agree that it can cloud us if we apply what we want to other people in similar situations. I’m an odd ball. If I “treated everyone the way I want to be treated” I’d have no friends – seriously.


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

I'm not telling you what you or your baby need... I wouldn't venture to presume that I knew.

edited to add- If I wanted to be left alone I would ask DH to leave me alone, and do. If my baby was "asking" to be put down and left alone I would listen. Non-verbal babies can ask to be let down- my 13 mo old does it all the time when she is held. I would though make myself readily available to her if she changed her mind.

If I was crying and wanted to be left alone I'd still be hurt that DH ignored me and walked out without asking. That is all I'm saying. And that is just me.


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## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

I am against CIO...but only because I personally had a very bad experience with it.

We CIO with out son when he was 5 months old. He screamed hysterically for 3 hours. We did the Ferber version and checked on him every few minutes. Everytime I went in, he reached up screaming for me to pick him up. I think what makes it even worse is I did it for stupid reasons. I wasn't sleep deprived. My son wasn't sleep deprived. I just wanted to have an affirmative answer to the infamous "is he sleeping thru the night?" question. I succumbed to the pressures of mainstream society and opinions.

After I did it, I was talking to a mom at a mommy/infant meeting. She said she did cry-it-out and her baby fell asleep after ten minutes. I was thinking...that aint crying it out. That's just letting the baby let off some steam.

I think if a baby can fall asleep in less than 10-20 minutes, it's not horrible to let them CIO. If they cry for more than 30-45 minutes, I wouldn't be too supportive. I'm speaking of babies though. After a year is different. Then I'd let the little brats scream their heads off all night long. JUST KIDDING.

We're soon going to be doing CIO with my 2 1/2 year old (for night weaning) and I'm really nervous about it. I know its the right thing to do, but I'm a wimp when it comes to him crying. I'm really hoping that he doesn't cry to much...that he excepts substitutes (snacks, sippy cup, etc).


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## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rainbow*
I'm not telling you what you or your baby need... I wouldn't venture to presume that I knew.

edited to add- If I wanted to be left alone I would ask DH to leave me alone, and do. If my baby was "asking" to be put down and left alone I would listen. Non-verbal babies can ask to be let down- my 13 mo old does it all the time when she is held. I would though make myself readily available to her if she changed her mind.

If I was crying and wanted to be left alone I'd still be hurt that DH ignored me and walked out without asking. That is all I'm saying. And that is just me.


I definitely agree with this. I've seen/heard too many AP parents trying to pressure other AP parents to do something just because it is AP and not because it is best for the child. For example, I hear of toddlers showing signs of weaning and then AP people giving advice on how to keep them breastfeeding. Maybe the child really is ready to wean. And if it's after two years, I say that is perfectly fine. And if it's after only a year, not great, but not the end of the world. Another example: Every time I told an AP person my toddler son refuses to go in the sling...they start giving me advice on how to get him in it. What is so wrong with not using a sling? Why should I force my child in it?

That being said...I do have some comments that might not be too popular. There are babies and children who need space...who want to be put down. I think they use body language to communicate this...they squirm, arch their back, etc. My child was not like this. He always wanted to be held (still does!), always wants to sleep snuggled next to me, always wants to fall asleep at the breast, etc. The baby in the original post sounded like my son...even more intense in his need for human contact. So, I personally don't think THIS 6 month old child NEEDS space. BUT it seems like his parents need the change. They are sleep deprived and having trouble being good parents to 2 children. I don't think crying it out is the best thing to do to this baby. But it might be what is needed for the family. It might be their only choice.

I will pray that it works well and that your family gets some good sleep and is happy again.

Dina


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Okay oddly enough I had a CIO type experience early this morning. My daughter woke at 5 and I was nursing her in the chair (she is in her own room) and she was squirming, eyes closed, eyes open, rubbing her eyes. She just couldn't settle. I know 5 am is too early for her to be awake. I nursed her for about 20 minutes but she still wouldn't settle so I kissed her, told her I loved her and put her in her crib. She cried for a total of 2 minutes and 23 seconds and she slept until 7:15. So those of you who are 100% against EVER leaving your child to cry, what would you do different in this circumstance? Do you really honestly believe it was harmful for her to be left when it meant her getting two more hours of sleep and waking up at her normal time? Would you have just let your child get up for the day? And no I couldn't bring her to bed with me, she just plays.


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## isabellesmom (Apr 16, 2004)

I had a c-section with dd and mild ppd and had a very anxious mom visiting to help for 6 weeks. During those 6 weeks, dd was crying through the day, wouldn't sleep, didn't like being carried and feed 3-4 times through the night or even stay awake through the night. Between me, mom and dh, we had to roster ourselves to cope with dd. It was horrible and I was so fearful of the time when mom would leave; knew I couldn't cope with it.

The saturday after mom left, dh took over (i was completely exhausted and with ppd, wasn't quite in the right of mind to argue) and we left dd in her bassinette. She cried (naturally) and every 10 minutes we would go in and check on her. She cried for over two hours and at that point, I was so sure that I was on the brink of a separation soon. The next night, she cried for an hour before falling asleep. we only tried this at night and after her feed and making sure she was dry etc

Spoke to the child health nurse the Monday and she loaned me a videotape on sleep tactics that some hospital used and recommended. It was basically making sure she was clean and fed and then putting her in her bed and patting her or stroking goodnight. Then leave the room and to check on her every 2 minutes, then 5 minutes and increasing to maximum of 15 minutes.

I felt better and spoke to dh about it and we tried it again the same night and she cried for about half an hour. The following night, she fell asleep within 10 minutes.

Dd doesn't have a problem with bedtimes now - on the odd occasion she fusses but usually for not more than 15 minutes and she sleeps through. She's also not fussing when she is awake and is learning to soothe herself back to bed.

I am not sure if this is the best method or solution but it has worked for me and although not 100% foolproof, and really tough initially, I am not looking back. I know many people don't agree but then if baby is really inconsolable in my arms, it's worth a try.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly*
So those of you who are 100% against EVER leaving your child to cry, what would you do different in this circumstance? Do you really honestly believe it was harmful for her to be left when it meant her getting two more hours of sleep and waking up at her normal time?

This is a good example of what I was talking about. This is the problem I have with absolutes, there is a grey area and yours, Heavenly, is a great example.

Personally, I probably wouldn't have done anything differently in your circumstance. I see a key difference in a child left to cry alone when the child sleeps alone. I would never leave my child to cry alone in bed but that is because being alone in bed is not something that we do. My DC cries in bed sometimes and I'm physically there - sometimes I'm not "there, there" IYKWIM. However, if DC as accustomed to being alone in bed I would have no problems with letting her do some crying in there if that is what I felt she needed to help her go back to getting the sleep she needed. I would never let her cry for a long time but 2.5 minutes seems perfectly reasonable. That 2 minute cry is what my DC does when she can't figure out how to fall asleep - she whales for a very short time and then passes out&#8230;cracks me up.

I do see a big difference, I guess, between crying because that is what the child needs in-and-of-itself (something that I know is real because I live that reality) and a child crying because it needs something else - I wouldn't want a child to have to cry "that" out, whatever that may be.

I guess that would be my big problem with CIO on a very young child. If it took two hours of crying for a young infant to fall asleep, they would most likely be hungry around the time they finally fell asleep. That would be the deal breaker for me. I have no problem believing that some children may very well want to cry (and maybe even cry alone) but the parent should be reasonably sure that the child doesn't need anything (other than sleep!), which is much easier to know with an older child.


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## Sleepymama (Oct 9, 2003)

I agree that routine doesn't necessarily have to mean the Baby whispererer 3 hour deal. My DS was on that routine in the NICU (they schedule everything there) and we stuck with it for about a day after he came home. We had to watch the clock to make sure he ate every 3 hours because of his condition (cardiologist directed) so we had alarm clocks all over our bedroom. After about a week we didn't need them anymore.

Anyway, our "routines" were like loose guidelines, especially after DS's second surgery when his sleep got even worse (sleeping 10 minutes at a time 24 hours a day) I started charting naps like the NCSS recommended. Dh and I began to speak in a code that represented how long he had been awake/asleep, how he fell asleep, how long it took to get him to sleep, how long since he ate, and how much (he was BFed and supplemented b/c of medical/supply issues). Anyway, I realized that he could only be awake for a certain amount of time before he began to lose it, and if I tried to get him to sleep before he started to freak it was much easier. This amount of time lengthened as he got older, so that he could be awake a half hour, then an hour, then a couple of hours, and now it's like 5-6 hours. But it was that length of time awake rather than the time of day that dictated his naps--that's why I watched the clock. I learned this from really watching his sleepy cues--this isn't "sleep training," it's helping him figure out when he is sleepy and recognizing it and helping him fall asleep. I really do think that many babies really don't know how to fall asleep, mostly because they can't shut their brains off, especially once they get to be around 4-6 months old (that's why you hear so many moms of 6 month olds with "sleep problems") they are so active and alert they can't shut down. They need help. I don't think helping them recognize when they are sleepy and encouraging a "chill out" process through routines of bathing, books, music, rocking, dark rooms, and even, with some babies, laying down alone in a bed or crib with parent nearby is forcing sleep on a baby.

Many times I'd give up and try again 20 minutes later. Sometimes he just wasn't ready. I have never, ever said "OK, it's 3:00, nap time!" It's always, "see how you're rubbing your eyes, that means you're tired. Let's get a drink and lie down together after we read our book." Is this sleep training? I really don't think so.

I can't let him cry for 30 seconds or else he pukes, but if he had settled himself after 5-15 minutes or so without the really panicked cry (which happens within about 3 seconds with this kid) I would have let him settle himself.

I am actually working with a national sleep expert (won't say her name, I'll get flamed for sure) on his sleep. My therpist hooked us up. Her advice is not bad--she has never told me to leave him to cry, even though her book is supposedly a "CIO" book. We are working on helping him fall asleep without being held. It is taking a while--what she said would take 2 weeks is going to take us 6 months to a year. My goal is to have him fall asleep lying down with me in the room, but not in bed with him, by 2 years, and then he sleeps by himself half the night and I will come whenever he wakes up (hopefully after midnight) and sleep with him the rest of the night. Now he only makes it to about 9pm. Is this training? Probably. But I really think I've respected his needs so much more than most other parents in our situation, and I have never, ever ignored his needs except a couple times when I was in danger of hurting him (and only for 2 minutes). But I believe that now our family's health needs to take precedence, and DH and I need some time to ourselves, which we haven't had since he was born. Until he was about 14 months old we had literally not been alone for more than a minute because one of us was always holding him. I like Dr. Jay Gordon's comments (already mentioned here I think) that at some point the toddler's vote no longer vetos--there has to be a family vote too. We want to have another baby, and in the scary event that the next one is like the first, I am preparing him to be able to sleep without me sometimes so that I can give myself to both of them.

The problem I think with any kind of sleep training/CIO is "instant results." Supposedly you leave them to cry for 2-3 nights and then they magically sleep through the night. There is no way babies can change their habits so quickly without permanent emotional damage. I think a very, very slow adaptation--like the NCSS recommends--is possible while remaining AP and responding to the baby's needs.

I agree with Lilyka that I would definitely recommend the NCSS (and have to several friends, DH's coworkers too) as well as many AP practices. I would want them to be aware of the different things that are possible to do, and not think that they either have to suck it up and deal with severe sleep deprivation or go the whole hog CIO route.

I felt so horribly trapped by our situation, CIO was literally, medically not an option for us because of his heart, or I might have given in and tried it in extreme desperation. We did actually try the "patting" until he settles thing for about 45 minutes one night, picking him up when he got too upset and then putting him back down, and that was a major failure. The crib turned back into the cloth-diapering station. I tried so many things, read every single book, posted on about 10 different crunchy and mainstream parenting sites. I got a lot of stupid, and not so stupid advice. In fact, the best piece of advice I got was from a very mainstream mom who told me that her baby needed a nap about an hour after she woke up. I had posted my nap routine begging for help and she saw that my DS took his first nap 2 hours after he woke up, and maybe needed one sooner. This advice really saved me--I watched him and saw that he really did get sleepy an hour after he woke up, and if he got that early nap in the rest of the day was so much better.

I think that many parents want a "rulebook" for parenting--some AP types as well as "mainstream." If you follow X method, everything will be hunky dory. EASY, as the baby whisperer says. It's a lot easier to watch a clock and follow a method than to really watch your baby, especially for new parents who aren't quite sure what they're doing and don't have much experience with babies. I'm not excusing it, I'm just saying that as a relatively new parent who spent a pretty terrifying year with a sick baby, I wished I had an instruction manual


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## mamabtt (Apr 15, 2003)

.


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## Kristine233 (Jul 15, 2003)

Ok I dont like CIO but my definition of CIO is hours not minutes.

Mac just recently has hit this stage where she gets really cranky before bed and starts to whine and cry. I cuddle with her and give her kisses and put her in bed. She cries for 5 minutes (at the max 10 minutes) and shes out. Its not a "Mom I need your help!" Cry but more of an exhausted trying to fall asleep cry. And rocking her doesnt help it just makes her more frustrated, she wants quiet and space. SO for us that works but I dont call it CIO.

Joscey was a colicky baby and always cried. ( I should add this lasted most of the first 9 months) I would wear her in a snugli (ugh wish I had found slings back then) and gently bounce on the bed and thats the ONLY thing that would work. Well I very well couldnt do that all day. (my DS has sensory integration and I seriously think Joscey had/has it as well). Just the smell of me cooking would set her off, any noise, or anything. I was only 18/19 with NO support whatsoever except Dh. After hours of her crying and nothing I would do would help I was severly exhausted. I would put her in her bouncy seat in the bathroom and take a shower and let her scream. It was a "mommy come get me" scream but what was I to do? At that moment it was safer for me to take the shower and cool down than to deal with her. She was of course safe and right by me but I had to let her cry. But I would have never let her scream for hour/s. So I guess I wouldnt consider that CIO either.

I guess my point is that alot of people judge so quickly and have no idea about the actual circumstances. CIO may mean different things to different people so I'd hate to judge someone without being in thier shoes.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *isabellesmom*
During those 6 weeks, dd was crying through the day, wouldn't sleep, didn't like being carried and feed 3-4 times through the night or even stay awake through the night....

She cried (naturally) and every 10 minutes we would go in and check on her. She cried for over two hours...we only tried this at night and after her feed and making sure she was dry etc.

Spoke to the child health nurse the Monday and she loaned me a videotape on sleep tactics that some hospital used and recommended. It was basically making sure she was clean and fed and then putting her in her bed and patting her or stroking goodnight. Then leave the room and to check on her every 2 minutes, then 5 minutes and increasing to maximum of 15 minutes.


Deep breath...

Okay, I'm having a really hard time with this post. I'm struggling on how to word my feelings with being judgemental. Lord knows, I did not suffer from PPD and have no idea what it is like. I have nothing but sympathy for you, isabellesmom, for what you went through emotionally, but given that this IS an attachment parenting board, I simply cannot let this example go by without addressing some of the core issues I have with it. I hope I can do this and not come across as attacking you personally. Please see it as a disagreement with your method, and not your desperation (if that makes any sense).

But everything about this post upsets me. First, it's perfectly normal for a newborn to act that way. Being out of the womb and subjected to the enormous amount of stimuli the outside world provides cannot help but be a shock. I realize that the family may not have known what to expect, or did not have the resources to cope with it, but I don't see much wrong with this baby from the description. Newborns need to eat at LEAST every 3 hours and usually more frequently than that. And they often have their days and nights mixed up. There are so many, many reasons that a newborn can cry excessively, food allergies or colic being just one of many, many things to try. It's hard to imagine that in six weeks you exhausted all the options (though I realize many of these options may not have been made known to you, which is of course not your fault). Six weeks is still part of what I consider to be the "adjustment period" to Life outside the Womb. A tender age to be diagnosed as needing sleep training.









The technique, and the "videotape" from the nurse is so obviously your typical CIO handbook stuff. I have such little respect for anybody in the pediatrics field since they all dispense parenting advice like they were experts, but have little to no training in this field. Most doctors give the tired old "if they are fed and dry..." garbage and I feel it really does a disservice to babies and their families. I am very sorry that this was the "expert advice" you were given. You were cheated and so was your child.

Your comment that you only did this "after she was fed and dry" suggests that these are the only 2 legitimate reasons for a baby to cry. I strongly disagree, and could write a thesis on why this is SO not true, but I won't get into it here. Any attachment parenting board will have plenty of articles that can explain it more eloquently and more succinctly than I can.

I realize you did what you felt you had to do, based on your circumstances and the knowledge (or lack thereof) of what you could do, but I could never ever condone this practice for any mama. I'd rather see her pack herself off to hawaii for a week and leave the child with someone who can cope with the demands of a newborn, than do sleep training on such a young baby. It's not just cruel - it's also very dangerous.

I'm sorry if this post offends you. I truly struggled with how to word it, and please know that I'm not condemning YOU, but I am condemning this technique and the ignorant fools who let you think this was an option, let alone the best option.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabtt*
Wow, I couldn't get past the first page of this thread yesterday...then I skimmed the last page today. I have to admit I am shocked at how many here practice sleep training/CIO/whatever you want to call it. Some even mention doing this with babies under six months old







(for the record I don't think *any* age is ok) I won't get into why since a few of you have already stated that so eloquently and I am too sad reading some of these posts. I *have* been there (still am some nights) my son cried in our arms for the first year - we paced with him in the sling 24/7 and that seemed to help. He just started sleeping "through the night" at 3yo and I am 6 mos pregnant and tired. I have been at the end of my rope, exhausted, confused, etc. but *never* considered leaving my baby/toddler/child to cry alone and won't with his sibling(s). I wouldn't do it to my husband either or anyone else I love. My grandmother (who died 2yrs ago at 93) had a stroke 20yrs before her death which severely impaired her speech. If one didn't care or have patience to try and understand what she was trying to say, they just would pay no attention or talk as if she wasn't there or yell like she was unable to hear. Imagine if elderly folks were left to cry/scream/beg for help in a nursing home or hospital and noone came just because they couldn't verbalize what they need. It happens.

I'm really sorry, this is going to come out "hostile", but please, READ THE WHOLE DISCUSSION before coming in to condemn people. Truly, this has been a very helpful and educational set of posts. But this sort of blanket condemnation of everyone who has shared is not very helpful and not very understanding.


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## isabellesmom (Apr 16, 2004)

I was well aware that I probably wouldn't get much nodding of heads (if any) for what I've posted. In reality, I do know that I have a happier baby. dd was cranky and fussy all the time and sleeping in a total of less than 6 hours a day. We've tried holding her, hugging her, slinging her and all but to no avail. She well and truly was tired and unhappy. Now she is a happy girl who naps after every feed and plays and laughs and coos all the time and is happy to go into the pram for hour long walks and rides in the car happily. She understands bedtime now and bedtime happens without much fuss and she is feeding much better now and definitely a much calmer baby. Previously the slightest of things would startle her; a shift of the arm or hand when feeding and she would break into a long cry but these days with a reassuring smile from us, she even breaks into a laugh. And no, she doesn't sleep alone in her room; her bassinette is one metre away from our bed in the same room.

I am not saying this is 'the' method but it worked for us. We probably went in not knowing any better but we definitely understood our baby much better after that. We've never let dd cry hard for more than a second but we know when she's just fussing and when she needs comforting.

Everyone exercises some form of sleep training - whether it be holding baby until she falls asleep or letting baby fuss or just putting baby down and letting baby cio etc I don't think there is a right or wrong method, just whichever the mother opts for and thinks most appropriate and safe for her and baby. I wouldn't condone or condemn any method that any mother chooses and given that no baby and circumstance is the same, I think we should all just try to be more open and tolerant; that's what I think this forum is about, to discuss our circumstances and thoughts.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

I've tried to type this reply a few times now, but I just can't get all my thoughts down. I've been following this developing thread, and I have so much to say. But I will be brief...

I am apalled (yes, apalled!) that the medical community would still reccommend this CRAP on CIO'ing newborns! It truly amazes me. And it's particularly sad to consider that moms-especially first time moms-those that are really looking everywhere for answers to these issues that they don't know how to handle and are a bit vulnerable-are subjected to this.

Flame away, but I just don't know in what book (unless there are extenuating medical/psychological circumstances that threaten the life of the mother or baby) that leaving a newborn to cry is a right/good thing to do. I really am open to many, many different 'parenting styles', but I just HAD say this. Isn't it just an imperative that we respond to our babies?

Yes, if you read my earlier post you'll see that I can COMPLETELY commiserate with moms of sleep-challenged babies, I've been there-am still there sometimes. And as a child grows, so does their ability-in most cases to soothe themselves and eventually at some point understand on SOME level that their needs are part of a FAMILY'S needs. But GEESH-it's just amazing to me that at 6 weeks old or thereabouts the docs/nurses, etc., would be reccommending this sort of neglect. Yes, I think it's neglect-especially at this age.

So, please flame away. I'm not saying that the moms that have done this are BAD or that they are terrible moms. I am disagreeing with this practice, that's all.

Looking forward to reading more of these posts...


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *isabellesmom*
We've never let dd cry hard for more than a second but we know when she's just fussing and when she needs comforting.

I'm confused. You said the first night your baby cried for two hours. Are you now saying that she merely "fussed" for two hours?

Quote:

Everyone exercises some form of sleep training - whether it be holding baby until she falls asleep or letting baby fuss or just putting baby down and letting baby cio
I suppose it depends on how you define sleep training. I consider sleep training to be a systematic method for getting babies to sleep in ways that are contrary to the baby's inclincation. Babies are designed to be in almost constant motion. Have you ever wondered why babies tend to fall asleep so readily in swings, carseats, vibrating chairs, and when out for walks in slings? Think about primate babies and how they spend their days: hanging on their mamas, who are constantly on the move. In the days before prams and bassinetts and cribs, in the days when predators were a concern, babies were kept close to their mothers bodies. So, personally, I think rocking and holding and nursing a baby to sleep represents the "natural" way. And that expecting a baby to just fall asleep on it's own when you lay them in a crib is completely UNnatural, and does not occur without drastic manipulation of the baby's system.

CIO definitely falls into a category of it's own for sleep training, and becomes more extreme the younger the baby. Not only does CIO ignore the needs of the child, replaced instead with the need of the adult for the baby to follow a more easily manageable pattern, but the principles of CIO tend to treat emotional needs as superfluous (the old "if they are dry and fed then they have nothing to cry about" saying).

Quote:

I don't think there is a right or wrong method, just whichever the mother opts for and thinks most appropriate and safe for her and baby.
But it isn't safe. CIO sleep training in a young or newborn child is dangerous. Inducing adult sleep patterns in a neurologically immature infant elevates the risk of arousal disorders such as sleep apnea and SIDS. Babies normally do not have a phase 4 sleep stage (the deepest stage of sleep) but studies suggest that CIO, by creating a state of physical exhaustion in the baby, causes babies to sink into an abnormally deep sleep stage. Prolonged sleep periods in newborns is not only unnatural (McKenna's extensive studies of babies show that they are designed to wake frequently as they cycle through the various sleep stages, and to meet their nutritional needs) it is potentially dangerous.

Then there are the dangerous effects of being left to cry in terms of elevated stress hormones (just one example is cortisol which effects organ function and suppresses the immune system), elevated core body temperature, elevated heart rate and blood pressure, and disruption of respiration. Studies have shown quite clearly that prolonged crying is harmful for children physically (and it should go without saying that it's harmful emotionally), and that babies whose cries are repeatedly ignored maintain an elevated stress response to periods of crying throughout infancy. Physiological stress creates longterm changes in the function of many cell types throughout the body, especially in vital organ systems such as the heart and brain. That's why people who lead stressful lives are more likely to get sick and die early.

To me, suggesting that CIO of a newborn is just one "parenting choice" that should be respected, that there is no "right or wrong" is, to me, like saying that choosing formula or breastmilk is simply a "lifestyle choice". In the efforts to "not judge mothers" we do them a disservice by not informing them and providing them with enough informatin to MAKE those safe choices you speak of.


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## neveryoumindthere (Mar 21, 2003)

what she said









thanks for reminding me why i cant/shouldnt/won't let my dd CIO though the past couple nights it's been in the back of my mind as i'm having lots of sleep troubles with her. i always said i would never even think about it but u know some days u just feel its a solution but its *not*.

i







this thread and how this sensitive topic has been handled


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## zaftigmama (Feb 13, 2004)

I have been reading this thread with interest - it's amazing how many definitions of CIO there are, and how many opinions people have about getting babies to sleep.

I am very surprised at how many moms choose to let their babies cry. It's funny how certain phrases are used so often - they come straight from books by Ezzo, Ferber and the like. There's the 'I can't be a good mom without the sleep I need', the 'Everyone sleep trains babies, just in different ways', the 'It's better for the baby now if we set up amazing sleep patterns now, even if they cry.' I find them all heartbreaking.

Age (of the child) is definitely a factor, but even with a slightly older infant (anything under 6 months) - why does parenting end at night? I'm a 24-hour parent. If my kids need me at night, fine. If they need to be rocked, held, nursed to sleep, fine. If they are too young to understand what it means when you say, "Ok, it's bedtime" they are too young to be put in a crib and be left alone to cry.

Most mammals sleep in a big heap of animals. Humans are the only mammals whose parents put them alone in a box elsewhere to sleep. It's not natural, and it can't really be healthy for newborns. So many new moms are amazed that their babies will sleep lying face down on their parents chests, but when moved they wake up. Is that really surprising?

It took my daughter close to two years to be a good sleeper, and even now (at almost three) she nurses herself to sleep. That's her right. In so many ways, two year olds are such babies. She decided when we were going to lay down in her bed to go to sleep, and she was never scared, lonely, or wondering where I was at bedtime. My son happened to be a wonderful sleeper from the beginning - thankfully.

On some of the other parenting boards I lurk on, I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the posts I've been reading in this thread. But I'm definitely surprised by what I've been reading here at MDC. I don't know your kids, but I definitely feel bad for some of the situations I've been reading about.

I know for a fact that some kids want to be put down and left alone to fuss in their crib. Some don't. Parenting is such a huge undertaking, such a huge investment of time and energy. But really, it's about what your kids need from you. Once I decided to acknowledge that my needs were secondary and because I was so blessed to have this beautiful baby to care for that her needs came first, it was easy. Do what it takes. Maybe some parents are just exploring all the options to see what it takes. But CIO can't be the answer.

take care,


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Zaftig-ITA!


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

a little off topic, but this stood out ~

Quote:

I decided to acknowledge that my needs were secondary
uhm... no.

if your needs aren't met, how can you be a good parent? how can you teach your child to love and respect themselves if you set the example that it's ok to meet everyone else's needs before your own?

these are mainly rhetorical questions i guess, and more appropriately discussed in the AP Mom - Martyr thread that was started awhile back, but, i had to comment on the above quote because it just struck me as so.... blegh.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

I have been lurking on this thread for a while (along with half of MDC... lol) , but had to jump in and say I don't think the majority of moms in this thread are actually doing textbook CIO. Yes, some are, and that is very sad. But most are not.

Similar to Klothos' post, I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement:

Quote:

But really, it's about what your kids need from you
Really, it's about how I can be a good mother to my kids, a good friend and partner to my husband, AND a good friend to myself.

For the record, I never did CIO, which I define as allowing my children to cry, by themselves, for any length of time. But did I find a way to help my children to sleep without requiring my breast to fall asleep or to help send them back into lala land? You betcha. We did NCSS around 6 or 8 months, and it was a godsend.

Back to lurking....


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## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *klothos*
a little off topic, but this stood out ~

uhm... no.

if your needs aren't met, how can you be a good parent? how can you teach your child to love and respect themselves if you set the example that it's ok to meet everyone else's needs before your own?

these are mainly rhetorical questions i guess, and more appropriately discussed in the AP Mom - Martyr thread that was started awhile back, but, i had to comment on the above quote because it just struck me as so.... blegh.











I think one of the ideas that sets attachment parenting apart from Babywise type parenting is that for the first few years of a child's life (and especially the first year)...their needs come before the adults. I believe (and I think most AP parents believe) that you DO need to be self-sacrificing when you have an infant. You give up a lot of your sleep. You interrupt sex to run to your crying baby. You don't go on vacations. You give up your privacy in the bathroom. Baby says Jump and you ask "How high?"

I think the Babywise-type-parenting attitude is the adults come first AND that the adults much teach the baby that he is not the center of the world.

Now I'm not saying you can't do anything for yourself. You shouldn't totally neglect your well-being. A baby is going to be emotionally harmed by a depresesed, completely overwhelmed, distant mother. He'll also be harmed by parents who hate each other. So, you do need to take time for yourself...and do things for you... and do things for you and your husband. But baby still comes first. There's a difference between leaving baby with your in-laws for two hours so you and your husband can have a nice quiet dinner together...and leaving your baby for a week so you can go on a cruise.

A friend of ours (babywise people) asked us to baby-sit their baby last weekend. I said fine thinking it would be one or two hours. She wanted us to baby-sit him for 5 hours so she could attend a fun hobby-related event. It didn't end until midnight. This amount of time didn't work for us, so we had to say no. But I was a little surprised that she was going out that long. I was even more surprised that she then asked us to baby-sit on Friday so she could attend a church dinner. She was going to be away from her child two nights in one weekend. I try not to judge her, but I'm just not used parents leaving their babies often and for long periods of time. Most of my friends are AP and we rarely leave our kids. It's a couple hours here or there.

Now as kids get older...I think most AP parents start putting their needs a little higher on the priority scale. My son is now 2 1/2. I HATED leaving him as a baby...but now I do look forward to my occasional time alone. I miss him and worry about him...but I have a good time being away. When he cries, I try not to come running (unless he sounds hurt). I try to make him wait a little. When we go to the mall, he has to put up with going to my stores.....

As he gets even older...he'll have to wait even more....

Have more to say, but gotta start getting the kid ready for bed.

Dina


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thirtycats*
I believe (and I think most AP parents believe) that you DO need to be self-sacrificing when you have an infant.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:

I think one of the ideas that sets attachment parenting apart from Babywise type parenting is that for the first few years of a child's life (and especially the first year)...their needs come before the adults. I believe (and I think most AP parents believe) that you DO need to be self-sacrificing when you have an infant. You give up a lot of your sleep. You interrupt sex to run to your crying baby. You don't go on vacations. You give up your privacy in the bathroom. Baby says Jump and you ask "How high?"
you need to be self-sacrificing with ANY child -- to a degree. the statement, "my needs are secondary" is a complete fallacy. it was this way of thinking that led me to neglect myself after i had my son to the point that i finally realized i couldn't take care of him because i wasn't taking care of myself. i was anemic, my hair was falling out, my skin was transleucent, and i was about 20 lbs underweight.

sure, you give up sleep, and sex... to a point. but: _Baby says Jump and you ask "How high?"_ ?? no way. and no, i don't give up my privacy in the bathroom; that's why it's called "privacy."

to me, attachment parenting is about raising attached children, not about neglecting myself and my own needs and putting my children first in everything. my children aren't the center of the universe. am i saying i don't love them or that i'm not willing to meet their needs? of course not. i'm just saying the idea that AP parents should be willing to drop everything for their kids (and give up their privacy and their alone time and bend over backward to meet their kids needs) is a little skewed, a little unhealthy.

we cannot be good parents without first meeting our own needs.

and before anyone jumps on me ~ NO i don't think any of this means that it's ok for a parent to leave their child alone to cry for hours while the parent plugs their ears and gets some rest. i just think we need to look at the big picture of what's being said here...

eta ~ i guess what i'm saying is that there needs to be a balance.


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## zaftigmama (Feb 13, 2004)

Obviously putting my kids first, or myself second, doesn't mean none of my needs get met. But, I don't think in any situation involving two people that each individuals needs are met exactly 50-50. As long as sometimes one person gets what they need, and sometimes the other one does, things work out. That's true with kids, but I think as infants their needs get met more often. I don't see how it can be any other way.

When one half of the dyad is a helpless, uncomprehending infant who can make him (or her) self know only by crying, we have to respond to that. If an infant is crying because it wants to be left alone to fuss itself to sleep, then that's how we meet it's needs. But for awhile, at least the first six months if not longer (I'd say two years) the needs of the children have to be primary.

Obviously if a parent feels as though none of their needs are met, and they aren't functioning daily as parents, partners, friends, etc.,. something is drastically wrong. But this isn't happening because we're nursing kids to sleep, or responding to their cries.

Take care,


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## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

eta ~ i guess what i'm saying is that there needs to be a balance.[/QUOTE]

Well, if your anemic, your hair is falling out, and your twenty pounds underweight...that's not balance.

I think of self-sacrificing as sacrificing some of your reading time, the amount of movies you go see, overnight vacations, long shopping excursions, eight-nine hour sleep averages, long romantic dates with your husband, frequent bubble baths, etc. I don't think you need to totally neglect your health.

Dina


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:

I think of self-sacrificing as sacrificing some of your reading time, the amount of movies you go see, overnight vacations, long shopping excursions, eight-nine hour sleep averages, long romantic dates with your husband, frequent bubble baths, etc. I don't think you need to totally neglect your health.








ITA

obviously none of these are needs.

nobody needs to neglect their baby to read a book/newspaper/magazine; nobody ever needs to go out and see movies; overnight vacations IMO can be extremely revitalizing to parents... but can wait until the baby is old enough to deal with being alone OR can be left with a caregiver they are just as comfortable with as their primary caregiver. (when my son was just barely a month old, i left for two days to attend my brother's wedding while my son stayed with his daddy. i don't personally feel that there was any harm done by this. his father fed him, coslept with him, changed him, and kept him secure and happy...)

i don't see why a baby can't accompany a parent on a "long shopping excursion." my son always has, with me.

"long romantic dates with your husband" are a joke (at least, for us). i don't think i've *ever* been on a "long, romantic date" with my SO. ah well. in any case, it's not a need; there are many ways couples can connect and be intimate with one another without ever leaving the home.

and "frequent bubble baths" ~









ok i think i'm done.

but you see what i mean about balance?

i also think there are some needs that may have to be sacrificed while the needs of the infant are met, and then made up for later. sleep is obviously a need, and we do need adequate rest to stay healthy, but this has to be sacrificed, particularly with a newborn, so that the baby can be healthy. my son had colic for the first few months of his life, mostly during his first month, which meant he was awake and screaming almost all night long. i guess i could have just laid him down, gone in another room and gotten some rest... but i didn't. i stayed with him, held him, rubbed his back, rocked him, and helped him get through it. i was exhausted and overworked but i sacrificed my own need for sleep for that time so that he would be taken care of. but like i said, there has to be a balance.


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## Nate (Sep 3, 2003)

Going back to a discussion 2 pages back, but I started thinking about this last night...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rainbow*
Parenting is all about picking and choosing what works for your family and your ideals. Attachment parenting is a defined type of parenting. Can you pick and choose what AP things to follow and which not to follow and still call yourself AP? Well that is a matter of perspective. Can you pick and choose which tenants of buddhism to follow and still call yourself buddhist? Perspective.

I don't know whether you can pick & choose which things to follow and still call yourself AP. But let's address the analogy w/ religions: I can decide to follow the 10 Commandments, b/c I feel they provide a moral compass. But that doesn't make me a Christian. Right? I can study Buddhism and incorporate some of the tenets of the faith into my life, and that doesn't make me a Buddhist. But it _does_ make me a more moral, thoughtful, hopefully better person. So it's the same w/ AP; you can adapt it to your family's needs, and maybe you don't quite make the full set of ideals, but at least you're trying to be a better, more connected, etc. parent.

I'm not really a "joiner" or someone who likes labels very much. So I guess my point is that...
Oh, I've lost my point. Damn.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I think we need to acknowledge that parents, like infants and toddlers, have different needs and different levels of need. Just like some infants are "high needs" some parents have a higher need for say, sleep, than others. Or maybe regular meals is a less inflamatory example. My SIL has severe blood sugar issues. If she doesn't eat the right things at the right times, she stops functioning. She can't possibly be a good mother without regular meals (she would literally pass out in her tracks if she didn't eat right). I suspect that, at times, her need for a meal MUST take presidence over her toddlers need for something. Good planning and awareness probably minimizes this, but we all have "emergency needs" sometimes. Just as we have to be aware of our babies needs, and know that my babies needs may be different from yours, parents need to be aware of their own needs. And, more importantly for this discussion, be aware that my needs may be different from yours. So, while you (in general, no one in particular) might be OK sacrificing sleep or meals, the same level of sacrifice could send me so far over the edge that I would kill something or someone as a result of lack of sleep.

The one thing that this whole board has taught me is that awareness of the needs of self, baby, toddler and partner is a major key to making it all work.


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## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
I think we need to acknowledge that parents, like infants and toddlers, have different needs and different levels of need.


Excellent point









I have to admit that I have almost always woken up every 2-3 hours...to go to the bathroom, write in my dream journal, etc. So, waking up to nurse that often has never been a big deal to me. I don't need 8 straight hours of sleep. I'm fine with broken sleep. My good friend, however, has had to sacrifice much more to be an AP mom. She was used to having those straight 7-10 hours of sleep and has the spent the last two years exhausted!]

Also, I know some moms can sleep while breastfeeding, so nursing all night is not a big deal for them. I sometimes can and sometimes can't.

I'm still very much about crying-it-out (with babies). But I'll admit that in extreme cases (where parents are almost dead from exhaustion) I'm not sure of the alternative. I guess I'd just want these parents to know a) it is not good for their babies b) that it is only done as a last resort because the parents have to have more sleep...and not because they're worried about fitting into the mainstream and/or not because they're worried their child is behind their peers in sleeping through the night.


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## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nate*

I don't know whether you can pick & choose which things to follow and still call yourself AP. But let's address the analogy w/ religions: .

This just reminded me. A while back...just for fun...I made my own little "What kind of parent are you?" type of quiz. If anyone is interested in taking it or just seeing it...it's at http://members.aol.com/elsa22/parentingtest.html

Please don't take it too seriously.

Dina


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## Messy Nessie (Apr 13, 2004)

I've been writing this reply in my head for days now, not quite sure how to "get it right", so please forgive me if I remble or seem to be O/T. I promise, all I write was brought on by this thread. I have thought of little else during my "free time" in the last week.

Originally, I replied some garbled sentances to the OP, as when this thread began I was extremely sleep deprived from my nearly 6 mo very high-need DD's inability to go more than 20-60 minutes without some sort of waking. The legths we would go to every night to help her find sleep were getting more extreme and more exhausting everytime. It is so frustrating to spend 1.5 hours trying to help her nap, only to have that nap last less than 30 minutes.

Anyway, as the thread evolved, I found myself sympathizing with each of the poster's stories, seeing my own situation in each of them. At this point DH and I, although committed no to CIO, began to consider it. (All of the nightwaking falls on me b/c my DH has MS and needs to get solid sleep.) My health was in th toilet as I was vomitting and having migraines from not sleeping for the past 6 months. We knew that something had to give in our situation...

The very first time I read heartmamas posts I saw them as being judgemental and harsh. I thought, surely, she could not know how sick I was and could not believe that a sick mama was better than letting my baby cry... etc etc etc...

The next night my DD began her nightly "breakdown". After her bath, we typically nurse and a few minutes into it she loses control and gets near hysterical crying. Usually, my DH and I would take turn swinging her car seat, wearinging her in the sling or bjorn while the vacuum runs until she calms and then we take a drive to go to sleep.

However, that night I remember heartmamas posts and I quickly thought about how we handle her crying... We treat as something wrong, that needs to be stopped. Hardly respectful in light of what I had read. So I decided to stay in the chair, hold her and let DD "tell me" how she was feeling. (Yes, I made sure all her physical needs were met and that she was not in pain before deciding this







)

It went exactly as heartmama described. She sobbed for a long time withe her eyes closed. Then periodically she would open them to see me. Eventually, the sobs slowed down to little sighs and she was just staring at me. Not with sadness or fear, but almost relief. Then she feel asleep in my arms.

This wasn't the easiest thing to do, as I very much wanted to croon to her or rock her or get up and do the colic dance... but as it went on, I could almost feel the tension in her body melt away. For the first time I felt like I was able to make her "hurt" go away by taking it into my body and then dispensing it in my breath. I felt closer to her than ever before because I could understand what she was going thru as a baby because I was listening to her for the first time...

She slept much better since that night than she has in a long time. And the next night she nursed herself to sleep in my arms without a tear, for the first time since she was a newborn. Naptime is much less painless and she is able to find sleep much easier. She even seems a bit less clingy and is enjoying floor play better in the past few days. I'll never know if that night had anything to do with it, but I like to think that it did. I think that maybe she has been trying to get us to listen for a long time and is feeling relief now that we finally did.

Anyway, I wanted to share my story and how reading this thread helped us to make a better choice for our situation. heartmama, I wanted to thank you for sharing what you did, because it helped us make a decision that has helped our baby tremendously. And thank you to all the other mamas who shared their stories, giving me hope that things will improve and letting me know that I am not alone.


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## thirtycats (May 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Messy Nessie*
The next night my DD began her nightly "breakdown". After her bath, we typically nurse and a few minutes into it she loses control and gets near hysterical crying. Usually, my DH and I would take turn swinging her car seat, wearinging her in the sling or bjorn while the vacuum runs until she calms and then we take a drive to go to sleep.

However, that night I remember heartmamas posts and I quickly thought about how we handle her crying... We treat as something wrong, that needs to be stopped. Hardly respectful in light of what I had read. So I decided to stay in the chair, hold her and let DD "tell me" how she was feeling. (Yes, I made sure all her physical needs were met and that she was not in pain before deciding this







)

It went exactly as heartmama described. She sobbed for a long time withe her eyes closed. Then periodically she would open them to see me. Eventually, the sobs slowed down to little sighs and she was just staring at me. Not with sadness or fear, but almost relief. Then she feel asleep in my arms.

This wasn't the easiest thing to do, as I very much wanted to croon to her or rock her or get up and do the colic dance... but as it went on, I could almost feel the tension in her body melt away. For the first time I felt like I was able to make her "hurt" go away by taking it into my body and then dispensing it in my breath. I felt closer to her than ever before because I could understand what she was going thru as a baby because I was listening to her for the first time...



I think this is very beautiful...the way you were there for your daughter. I don't think this is CIO at all. You held her in your arms and loved her. How can there be anything wrong with that? I think there's such a big difference between that and leaving your child alone in a room. Or periodically going in to pat your infant when they're begging you to pick them up (which I did and STILL feel guilty about 2 years later)

A teacher I once worked with complained about how parents always rush to cheer their children up when they're crying. It's fine that we want our children to be happy, but sometimes we have to just be there for them and let them feel what they're feeling. My husband and I are struggling not to fall into the trap of offering our DS food treats when he's upset about something. (ie. yes, I know you're sad about vacation being over, but we can go get ice-cream!) I had to remember the lesson yesterday. My son woke up hysterically crying for his daddy (who went out of town). I tried to distract him. "Do you want to watch a video?" "Do you want to play with mommy?" "Do you want me to read you a book?" Nothing worked so I stopped and said "Look, I'm going to carry you around the house and you can cry as much as you want." We did that and then after awhile...when I felt he was ready for a change...I did something silly and he slowly eazed into a happier mood.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

After reading the recent posts, I just have to add (from my own experience) that DS cried himself to sleep IN OUR ARMS almost every night for 5-6 mos. straight. He was a colicky baby and every night at the same time would have his "crying time". DH and I needed to switch off and on with this b/c it became physically and emotionally draining, but we always held him when he cried. I mention this b/c there have been threads before on MDC about whether or not it is CIO when your child cries to sleep in your arms. IMHO, this seems so silly. With colicky babies (and lots of others who cry to let off steam or what not) they CRY. And there's not much you can do about it. You can choose to try to help them through it, or not. We chose to always help our DS through it. It is mentally, physically, and spiritually EXHAUSTING. I know, we've been there.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Certainly we all do try to get our babies to stop crying (how well I remember those early newborn days) and alot of the time nothing we do works, which leaves us feeling frustrated and maybe even angry for some people. If there is absolutely nothing you can do, then holding them while they cry is at least the best option you have. I'm glad things worked out for you, Nessie, and especially that this thread helped contribute to that.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Messy Nessie*
However, that night I remember heartmamas posts and I quickly thought about how we handle her crying... We treat as something wrong, that needs to be stopped. Hardly respectful in light of what I had read. So I decided to stay in the chair, hold her and let DD "tell me" how she was feeling.

Ahhh, beautiful. Lucky child to have parents like you. This thing that you describe is the most ideal parenting. Sweet.


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## unpolarized (May 10, 2004)

I really think it depends on the baby. I have a 22 month old ds and a 31/2 month dd. They couldn't be more different. My ds not only wouldn't nurse for all that I tried (days and days upset, angry, hurt, and crying) but he didn't want to sleep with us at all. I pumped for a while (till I was on a muscle relaxer that I didn't want ds to get) and let him sleep on his own, after he got too big for his bassinet (didn't take too long, very long and mobile child) he moved to a crib. We had to let him CIO there, if he was in our arms it went on for hours, if he was in his crib 8 minutes tops. DD is much different, not only is she a bf piglet, she wants to sleep either with us or right next to us in a bassinet. CIO does not work for her, we won't go past a 5 minute mark (she's too little to really CIO) and she gets very upset, so we'll wait till she's bigger, more mobile, and/or seems to need her own space. But I will say this, the second (and I'm sure third, fourth, etc.) is much harder than the first, you can't nap when they nap, and sleep is needed to deal with an energetic (very energetic) 22 month old little guy bent on figuring out everything around him. So I can definitely see where you would want this. I think babies have personalities when they are born, at least to a certain extent, and you need to adapt to that personality, rather than forcing anger, hurt, and resentment to come between you and loving your baby.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

i have two very different children with two very different levels of sleep needs. ds was a high needs baby. very high needs. he was the nurse, carry, nurse some more, try to sneak out of the room, oops he woke up, carry for a couple more hours, finally sleep on your chest type baby. i tried CIO once at about 8 months out of desperation and it was a disaster. those of you who have tried this with a HN, determined baby know exactly what i mean - think panicked screaming and vomiting. i don't know how long it lasted, but it couldn't have been that long. it seemed like a year







. i still regret it and am pained to think about it. he is now three and is still not a great sleeper - but we were finally able to night wean a few months back.

dd, on the other hand, is the exact opposite. she prefers to go to sleep by herself. i found this out by accident when she was only a few days old and i was exhausted trying to put her to sleep after a nuight feeding. i laid her in her carseat on the bed next to me thinking i'd get a few seconds of peace before she fussed to be picked up again. lo and behold, she drifted off without a peep and we both slept for several hours. a few days later, i laid her down in the bassinet to change my shirt, and by the time i was done, she was out. she acutally used the crib for 6 months or so before deciding she wanted to take her place in the family bed. the only time she wants me there to fall asleep is when she's teething or otherwise sick. at 10.5 months old, she nurses, rolls over, and starts sucking her fist - and she generally wont' go to sleep until i leave. when i leave, she sometimes lets out a cry - but if she hasn't stopped by the time i get out of the bedroom, i go back to her. anyhow, my point is that different things work for different kids. i absoloutely am not in favor of Ferberesque CIO plans, but not every baby likes to be bounced and cuddled and nursed to sleep. if a baby fusses for 5 minutes alone at bedtime and gets a good night's sleep, i think its better than screaming in some one's arms for two hours because they just want to be put down and left alone.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Different babies may have different needs (in fact I'm sure they do). But I think there's a difference between trying to find those needs, and putting baby down for a minute or two to see if that is one of them, and just giving up b/c the needs aren't obvious or aren't convenient and so letting them CIO is deemed the only answer.

Most of what I see here are concientious parents who are trying first and foremost to meet their babies needs. However, when someone suggests a newborn or young baby needs to CIO (and again, I'm talking prolonged crying, not short term fussing) then I just don't believe it. I think it's the parent who has the need, and while that need for support, help, additional resources, etc may be very real...why is it the helpless one who ends up having their needs sacrificed first? Oh yeah, cuz they are helpless.

Sometimes I think the nuclear family is a big part of this problem: too many mothers left alone to cope by themselves, not enough help (emotional or physical) and in the end, it's the baby whose needs get sacrificed.

sorry, i think i'm rambling...


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## Nate (Sep 3, 2003)

Nessie, that's a beautiful story.







Thank you so much for sharing it w/ us.

Piglet--did you just find out you're having a boy, or did I fully read your sig for the first time today? Anyway, congratulations!


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## Messy Nessie (Apr 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
Sometimes I think the nuclear family is a big part of this problem: too many mothers left alone to cope by themselves, not enough help (emotional or physical) and in the end, it's the baby whose needs get sacrificed.

oh i agree with this 100%!!!! i think this is also why so many women do not even try to breastfeed or give up so easily- there is no "in-house" support system like there was when several generations of family lived together!


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## Nate (Sep 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
Sometimes I think the nuclear family is a big part of this problem: too many mothers left alone to cope by themselves, not enough help (emotional or physical) and in the end, it's the baby whose needs get sacrificed.

So true--I have a colleague who came from a hispanic background, and the tradition apparently is that new mothers aren't even supposed to leave the house for 40 days after birth, and until that time all the aunties & grandmas will come over & take care of things. Which seems extreme--but think of how wonderful it is to have the societal support to just stay home & take care of yourself & your baby! No grocery shopping, running errands, just baby...

OTOH, they all told her that if she went out b/f that time was over she'd never lose her baby weight.







:


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nate*
Piglet--did you just find out you're having a boy, or did I fully read your sig for the first time today? Anyway, congratulations!









T

Thanks. We found out on Friday during an U/S. We're tentatively excited...I had an amnio after the U/S and we are anxiously awaiting the results (due tomorrow).


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

MessyNessie wrote

Quote:

heartmama, I wanted to thank you for sharing what you did, because it helped us make a decision that has helped our baby tremendously.
I was so happy to read your post. How beautiful for all of you.


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## Mindful Mom (Jun 9, 2003)

I have to admit that I'm surprised at how much attention this thread has gotten. I changed ISPs and have been off-line for the past 2 weeks. I'm sorry that I don't have time to read through the entire thread right now, but I thought I should give an update on our situation. I'm probably going to be stripped of my MDC membership for what you're about to read......

We did let Zoe CIO.







Please at least read what led us to this decision before you decide I should be nominated for the crappiest mother of the year award.

Things had been getting progressively worse -- it was a RARE occasion when I could get Zoe to sleep anywhere other than in my arms. When I did, it was in the swing for 30 minutes at a time, or in the car after a 30 minute drive. When I had to be anywhere I made sure I left early enough to drive around and get her some sleep so she wouldn't be miserable. It was helpful for Zoe, but not so fun for Ean (my 2-year old). Her fussiness got worse, and people who spent any amount of time with her were starting to comment and get concerned that there might be something wrong with her. The *only* time she was happy was right after waking up from a nap -- even then her happiness was usually short-lived. Had she been able to sleep in the sling, I would have been more than happy to wear her around whenever she needed to nap, but she's a light sleeper and seems to require quiet in order to stay alseep. I could have chosen to hold her in a quiet room every time she needed to sleep, but I couldn't stand what that was doing to my son. He needs me too and his needs and Zoe's needs were becoming increasingly at odds.

The final straw was Saturday night when I was rocking Zoe --- Ean came in to say goodnight and I shooed him away to keep him from waking her up. "Ean, please don't wake your sister" had become my mantra --- but the look on his face at that moment was more than I could stand. He was crushed and I knew he needed me, and I went to him. Rich (DH) took Zoe, but she screamed in his arms for 45 minutes. I was at the end of my rope and I knew that *something* had to change. Please believe me when I tell you we tried everything short of CIO (swaddling, white noise, NCSS, binkys, etc.) and things only got worse. I felt like I was making Sophie's Choice -- which one of my kids was I going to ignore. It was the most terrible feeling, and the only thing I could to was follow my heart. I decided that my son was suffering so much from my constant attention to Zoe that it was worth the risk of CIO. So, we finally put Zoe down and left the room -- I went back in every 5 - 7 minutes, touched her, kissed her, told her I loved her. She fell asleep after 35 minutes, crying on and off. When she awoke later I nursed her and put her back in her crib. She woke up again shortly after that and came to bed with us. We tried again the next night, same thing, except after she woke I wound up sitting in the glider all night, holding her while she slept. Same thing last night, except I tried putting her down after she woke to nurse -- she woke 3 times after falling asleep initially and went back to sleep with only a few little noises (not even cries). Just to be clear -- I nursed her each time she woke up and cried. I didn't stop her from falling asleep nursing, but I didn't go to any extreme measures to make sure she was out cold before I put her down.

I don't know what to say other than I KNOW I didn't make the ideal choice. I KNOW it's so much better not to let a baby CIO. But I also know that my family was a mess. Ean missed his momma so much and I just had to put his needs first for the first time in a very long time. Zoe was miserable and so obviously sleep-deprived. And, I'm ashamed to admit this, but Rich and I were feeling less and less attached to her because our lives revolved around getting her to sleep, keeping her asleep, or soothing her through a sleep-deprived bad mood.

I don't know how much of a difference it really makes, but we didn't just shut the door and turn the music up -- we kept going in and letting her know we loved her. We listened carefully and her cries were not ones of saddness or fear -- they were her tired/frustrated cries (and we do know her well enough to know the difference). I did NOT resort to CIO becuase I thought I should be getting a good night's sleep, and I have no intention of nightweaning anytime in the near future. This was not about me or some distorted view of the way a 6.5 month old should be sleeping -- this decision was made becuase my entire family was suffering and we had already tried everything else we (and others) could think of. I just couldn't continue to attend to Zoe at the expense of Ean -- that felt MORE wrong than CIO.

I feel like a failure and I'm sad, but I appear to be the only one. Zoe has gotten more sleep these past few nights and the improvement in her mood is dramatic and obvious. Ean will be getting more time with me, which I know means a ton to him. Maybe you're reading this and thinking that I'm offering these rationalizations as excuses for making a poor choice -- and maybe I am a little. I suppose if I had no qualms about CIO I would be here at MDC.
Six months ago I would have told you that I would NEVER let Zoe CIO and gone on about how wrong CIO is. But I never imagined that I might have to make that decision at the expense of my other beloved child.

I'm not proud of our (clearly non-AP) decision and I recognize that it's far from the ideal we are striving for -- but I do feel like we made the best decision possible given the circumstances we were presented with. I just thought I should update you all. Hopefully I haven't lost *everyone's* respect.


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## neveryoumindthere (Mar 21, 2003)

nope, you havent lost my respect tricia...i totally understand what you are saying..my family has also become a mess revolving around dd's sleep issues.

i have never let my dd cio but honestly some days i feel if i dont then i will literally go insane







she is sooo difficult and needs LOTS of help getting to sleep and staying asleep/ one day i 'tried', i thought if i dont get away from her right this minute i am going to flip out..i watched the clock, not even 2 minutes and she was screaming so hard she started to gag and i thought for sure she will throw up (i was in the next room)







:
her reaction escalates soooo quickly that i know i cant leave her







that and i really dont WANT to, but there are days i feel my sanity is hanging by a thread









no advice..just







s to all of you goin thru this, it cant be good for baby or parents, sleep deprivation is ugly and will make u say and do things u never thought u would in your pre-parenting days...I still need ideas cuz i'm all out of them, so if anyone can help then please do..


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## Mindful Mom (Jun 9, 2003)

Thanks for the hugs, Neveryoumindthere -- I can use them! I'm sorry to hear you're haivng such a tough time as well, I hope it gets better for you.

Just to clarify though -- it wasn't sleep deprivation that prompted this decision, it was Ean's need for more attention. I dealt with sleep-deprivation when Ean was an infant and while it's not fun, it wouldn't push me to try CIO. But the look on Ean's face.....it was awful.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Big hugs, Tricia. I'm glad to hear that your family is feeling better.


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## neveryoumindthere (Mar 21, 2003)

nak
to clarify i mentioned sleepdeprivation cuz dh and i are both so tired and tired of spending day nd night trying to soothe her only to have her up an hour later crying/fussing and tired of not having alone time..seems we are all detached from each other cuz of the bad mood we are in









but yes i hear you tricia, your son needs attention too, i'm sure we just wish there were a better option


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

MM - I am glad things are on the up swing. The more she sleeps the easier it will get because she will begin to recover and feel better and be able to sleep more. i know it sounds like backward logic but trust me on this. Please, if you get a chance go back and read some of this thread. so many of us understand where you have been and where you are and do no t judge you in the slightest. we have nothing but compassion for you. I totally understand what it feels like to always be telling your olderchild "just a minute, as soon as she is alseep . . . . " and that minute never coming until they feel totally neglected and alone.








I hope things continue to imporve.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I don't know what to say to you, except that when you told the part about the look on your Toddler's face...well, my heart just ached for both you and him. I imagine my toddler feeling that way, and it would honestly break my heart too. I have not walked in your shoes, so it would be wrong of me to say "I would never do that".

To be honest, if your baby was just crying all the time anyways and holding/comforting her didn't make the slightest difference, then probably putting her down and comforting her was really no different. And it's not like her cries were escalating to the point of hysteria/vomiting...It's hard for me to say this when I am such an anti-CIO person but...gosh, I'm just so glad that it's working out for you. I admire you SO much for posting so openly and honestly. I can feel the pain in your words. I have nothign to offer you but big hugs of sympathy, and gratefulness that your family is seeing some light now...


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## Nate (Sep 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mindful Mom*
I feel like a failure and I'm sad

Tricia;








and you're NOT a failure. I don't know what else to say, but I hope things are getting better for all of you.


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## bluedotsmom (Nov 19, 2001)

(I know I'm way late to this thread, sorry)

Hey, Tricia...huge hugs to you and your family...it can be very hard when what works for us is not what we had dreamed about. You are a great momma and I hope your family is well!!

My very late addition, and somebody probably already beat me to this and it sounds like things are settling down for you, but did you ever look at food or other allergies? They can cause some really weird problems for babies. Just a thought. I found the book "Is This Your Child?" very helpful (can't remember the auther.) Sleep issues can definitely be a sign of allergy.

Hugs again to you and your family!!! Anne


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I don't think anyone is going to attack you. People can and should be able to respect each other even as they disagree over a particular choice.

I think you asked a provocative question on a board where uninimous support for CIO is unrealistic. I don't think you expected that, but I also hope you don't view someone disagreeing with CIO as being attacked.

I am not sure whether you still want any alternative suggestions?


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## Mindful Mom (Jun 9, 2003)

First, I'd like to thank everyone for such a helpful, positive, and non judgemental thread. I wasn't expecting anyone here to come out in support of CIO -- I was actually expecting to be flamed and judged. I'm gald I wasn't.

Like I said in my first update, we did try CIO for a handful of nights (don't know how many, they sort of blur!). I said at the beginning that I wasn't willing to go more than a week -- if she wasn't sleeping after that we'd try something else. I only let her CIO when I initailly put her down (I always went to her when she needed to nurse at night, usually 2 or 3 times) -- and while she never got into that hysterical, freaked-out kind of cry, the amout of time she spent crying before falling asleep never significantly decreased

Sometime late last week, I had one of those "ah-ha" moments!! I had been rocking her until she just fell asleep and then tried putting her down -- of course, she woke up as soon as I put her down! Then I realized that *I* get really freaked out if I get startled right after falling asleep -- it's actually a pretty vunerable time. So, I tried nursing her, then giving her the pacifer, then putting her down _*before*_ she fell asleep. I then spent some time rubbing her head and talking quietly before I left the room. I *think* this is night numnber 4 and she's fallen asleep peacefully each night. She's still waking 2 or 3 times at night, but I just go in, nurse her, and then put her back down. She might peep for a nanosecond (literally, she's asleep by the time I get back down the hall), but she's always able to go right back to sleep. A big part of me misses co-sleeping, but I know it would be unfair of me to expect her to go to sleep on her own sometimes, but allow her to co-sleep other times. I'll feel more comfortable taking a middle ground once her sleeping is well-established.

I'm still not sure what to do about naps. Right now it's a combination of the sling, the car, or the swing --- whatever I can make work around Ean. We'll figure out sooner or later.

I wish I had had my "ah-ha" moment before trying CIO --- but I suppose we all learned something!

Thanks again for all your support and insight


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## ja mama (Sep 6, 2003)

I'm so glad it's getting easier too. It amazing the things we do that we think we can't. And if everyone is benefitting from it.... I know cio can't be advocated here at MDC but if this is part of the path leading you to a more attached gentle family, I'm glad for you. Nature tells us when we need a break, and nature tells us when to go back and touch our babies and whisper in their ear that we are still there, even if we go away for a few minutes.

I thought it was so important that you paid attention to her cry, even when you weren't in the room or holding her. You said "she never got into that hysterical freaked-out crying" which shows you weren't tuning her out at least.

With ds2 I went in and out a lot, because ds1 needed me. It was a short lived dificulty and stressful on all of us, but we did better when we were through that storm. And it was a short time. It was a year and half ago so I can't say if it was a week or 3, but not months of it.


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