# Help me without Flaming me



## sg784 (Dec 19, 2004)

None of this







: please!

Heres the short story. Of all the things I have been brought up to believe, of all the things I have learned and changed my opinions on, here, and elsewhere, I still do not have any opinion about circ. I dont understand why people do it, although i have heard and considered their reasons, nor do i understand why its such a big deal if it IS done although i have heard and considered their reasons.








:

I just....dont thinks its a big deal either way. I have thought about it and thought about it and gone to all the websites and tried to convince myself one way or another and Im still not convinced either way. I was secretly hoping for a girl, because well, then, I wouldnt have to deal with the issue right? We found out its a boy and DF asked me right away "How are we going to get him, you know, if we have him at home"

It stunned me. I didnt know he had even considered it, I have never talked about it with him, and I didnt know he had any opinion either way. (he is circ'd by the way)

I went on to say that I wasnt sure, because Im pretty sure its a cosmetic surgery and ins wont cover cosmetic surgery. Its not medically indicated etc. I then started ratteling off all the reasons i have read on why not to do it.

We talked about reasons why he would prefer it, why those reasons are really lame in all actuallity, we talked about drs botching up circs, etc, "why would I let an OB cut my son if i dont want him to come near me while im PG"? etc etc.

He got a little defensive and I just kinda left it at I dont know enough about it, and any decision that involves our kids should be informed, right?

He concluded with, if we could find "an old jewish dr who has done 10thousand of them" we should do it.

I really dont think circ is necessary, but I dont feel strongly enough about it to say "NO. and THATS FINAL"

Help me?
Please dont direct me to websites with scare tactics, please dont flame me, help me make an informed, RIGHT decision.


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

Let's start with some basics:

1) Do you believe it's okay to permanently alter someone else's body without their consent?

2) Would you ever remove the clitoral hood, aka female foreskin, of your daughter?

3) Are you willing to risk Meatal stenosis (10 percent), penile adhesions (70 percent), glans amputation, penile inflammation, urine retention and other circ complications?

4) Do you know what the foreskin is and how it functions?


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Have you watched the video?

I really dont know were to start other than just say simply that it is your sons body to do with as he wants so it isnt up to you to cut parts off that as you say have no reason to be cut off.


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## sg784 (Dec 19, 2004)

1) Do you believe it's okay to permanently alter someone else's body without their consent?

No

2) Would you ever remove the clitoral hood, aka female foreskin, of your daughter?
No

3) Are you willing to risk Meatal stenosis (10 percent), penile adhesions (70 percent), glans amputation, penile inflammation, urine retention and other circ complications?No

4) Do you know what the foreskin is and how it functions?
um...I think so







: Is there something that is commonly unknown that I should be educated about?


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

The default is leaving children as they are born. So to cut of your child's healthy body part you need have a pretty damn good reason, circumcision is purely cosmetic. And bottom line it's not your foreskin, it's not your husband's foreskin and it should not even be a decision you can make for your child.
The stickies at the top of this forum have tons of excellent information in them, I'd start there.


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## MaterPrimaePuellae (Oct 30, 2007)

I was in exactly for position a year ago; thankfully, I did have a girl. I have now decided that if I do have a boy, I will not have him circumcised. My reasoning is something like this: Once it's done, it can't really be undone (I know people do the foreskin restoration, but...), and DS could always have it done himself when he is older (if he wants to). I see no reason *at all* to dothis to a baby when the boy can decide himself as an adolescent or adult.
I feel exactly the same way about piercing little girls' ears.

Also, two little boys I know have had to be have surgery as toddlers to correct poorly done circumcisions, and to me this seems like a bad sign.

It's weird that men are sensitive about this-- I talked about this briefly with my husband and was surprised by how little he knew about circumcision. He had only seen on intact penis in his life (which.. is more than i have seen!) Anyway, he seemed to respond well to an argument along the lines of, "It's expensive, risky, painful, and unnecessary, and *expensive*" Also, knowing the two little boys who had to have surgery helped.

I hope that helps!


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## SammyJr (Aug 21, 2006)

Are you aware of the penile sensitivity study?

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...X.2006.06685.x

Cut men lose a lot of sensation.


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sg784* 
1) Do you believe it's okay to permanently alter someone else's body without their consent?

No

2) Would you ever remove the clitoral hood, aka female foreskin, of your daughter?
No

3) Are you willing to risk Meatal stenosis (10 percent), penile adhesions (70 percent), glans amputation, penile inflammation, urine retention and other circ complications?No

4) Do you know what the foreskin is and how it functions?
um...I think so







: Is there something that is commonly unknown that I should be educated about?


It seems to me that you're already NOT for circing.

But as for the foreskin, the common misconception is that it's "just excess skin". No. It allows for skin mobility of the penis during erections. If you have a long-sleeved shirt, grab the end of the sleeve into your fist and withdraw your inward a bit. With your arm inside your shirt a bit and with the end of the sleeve in your fist, this simulates the flaccid intact penis. The skin _appears_ to be excessive but it's not. If you stretch your arm out to simulate an erection, you see that skin comes in handy. Now imagine that 30-50 percent of that skin was removed and sutured together. It's probably be a tight fit, wouldn't it? I hope what I said made sense, if not, someone else can give you a better analogy.

For a little more on what I'm taling about in regard to removing the skin and suturing it together, read this lady's story where her son's skin had difficulty being put back together: http://www.genitalintegrity.net/blou...n-almost-died/

Most people don't realize that there is no "excessive" skin, you can't just cut off the tip. It's all one skin, that is cut, and the remaining skin is then stitched together.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

The function of the foreskin is to protect the glans so that it keeps its sensitivity. Just like the clitoral hood protects the nerve bundle in the clit.

The foreskins gliding action prevents the loss of moisture that is a very common complaint with circed sex. Dry sex is often caused by the cired penis letting the vaginal moisture out.

The foreskin bunching up actually stimulates the female G spot helping to produce a vaginal orgasim or G spot orgasim that most woman dont have. Because there is nothing there to stimulate the G spot.

The penis was not ment to rub against the vaginal walls as it does when it is circed. It was ment to glide inside it's own skin. So the friction that is felt when having sex with a circed penis is not how it should be.

The frenulum the part under the penis that looks like the area under you tounge is supposed to be a very sensitive area. Unfortunatly when circ is done it is either damaged or totally destroyed. So that part of pleasure a man should feel is forever gone.


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## spewie (Oct 3, 2006)

My dh and I felt almost the same way you did when we were pg with #1. I couldn't see any good reason TO do it, but I didn't think it mattered that much if we did. We could not decide. At first we thought we would wait and get it done later if we wanted to. We were sitting in the OBs office the day my water broke and dh said "we're not gonna do it, are we?" and I said "nope." We just knew. And I am SO THANKFUL we made the right decision with #1 because it would be harder to leave #2 and #3 intact if #1 was cut.

Good luck

ETA: I no longer think that "it doesn't matter" I get really sad when those close to me choose to circ


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## Mrs-Mama (Jul 2, 2007)

Congrats on not caving immediately to "let's circ him", and I agree with Papai that it sounds like you're for leaving him intact...just can't figure out why you feel that way.

I can relate. When I was PG, I sometimes hoped for a girl so that there would be no decision to be made. DH is intact so I figured he would want to leave our son intact, but I knew that my family would have an absolute fit (not that it should have mattered). Well, we discussed it a bit and DH said that he didn't see any reason to do it. I had this deep down feeling that I just couldn't send off my newborn baby to have a piece of his penis cut off...just couldn't justify the pain to myself. We agreed not to do it, but I kept researching because I wanted to know more. That's when I found MDC and began lurking on this forum.

Even after my son's birth, I answered questions from my family with "There's no medical reason to do it" and for us "There is no religious reason to do it" since we're Christian (hope I'm allowed to say that). I was still ambivalent about what others did. Now, though, I consider myself to be an intactivist. The more I read, the more convinced I am that not only did we do absolutely the right thing but that circing is absolutely wrong.

You can never un-circ once it's done. Keep reading/researching, and I think that you will find yourself becoming more and more opinionated on the subject.


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## 13Sandals (Sep 22, 2006)

I know I believed most of my life and so did my DH until I educated him that circumcising was 'just a little snip' of useless, extra skin - and if this is what you've been told all your life, it certainly does seem outrageous for this huge debate! Once I realized that the foreskin was an _organ_ and that the glans is supposed to be an 'internal' organ, protected by the foreskin, I was able to accept that what we'd been told all our lives was a lie.

Understandably, its much harder for a man whose been circumcised to process that a functioning part of his genitalia was sliced off at birth, for no good reason, or, for reasons that just haven't proven themselves.


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## jandc_hammond (Nov 3, 2006)

I can't see welcoming a helpless newborn baby into the world, then inflicting unnecessary pain on him. Did you know that the majority of circs are performend without proper anesthesia? Aside from that, it's risky to use any type of anesthesia on small babies, because you can't predict dangerous adverse reactions. And circumcision has also been linked with breastfeeding failure and poor maternal-infant bonding (http://www.cirp.org/library/birth/). Keep researching...there's lots of good info out there.


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## amandaleigh37 (Jul 13, 2006)

I felt the same way you did when I was pregnant. We ended up getting it done, and now it is my biggest regret. I wish someone would have convinced me then. It seems so obvious and clear to me now... I don't know why I didn't see it sooner









But just ask yourself, are you comfortable removing a part of your son's body if you "don't feel strongly about it either way"? You can always do it later... Please don't make the mistake I did. Once it's done, you can't take it back. You don't even have to decide this right now. You can decide to take your son home intact and make a decision in the weeks after he's born... I am certain if I would have done this, I would have never had it done. And then I wouldn't be dealing with the horrible guilt I have now


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MCatLvrMom2A&X*
The function of the foreskin is to protect the glans so that it keeps its sensitivity. Just like the clitoral hood protects the nerve bundle in the clit.

Although ITA with the rest of your post, I disagree with this part.







In fact, the foreskin, not the glans, is the most sensitive part of the penis. The glans is relatively insensitive, and has only about the sensitivity of the heel of the foot. Yes, the glans in the intact penis is more sensitive than the glans in the circed penis, but the foreskin is where the action is: the four most sensitive parts of the penis are in the foreskin. The glans is only the most sensitive part left on the circed penis.







:

Here is a site based on research published in the British Journal of Urology that explains it really well:

http://research.cirp.org/index-e.html

See especially this page:

http://research.cirp.org/func1.html

Quote:

FUNCTION OF THE FORESKIN

The foreskin occupies a prominent position on an important organ. The foreskin's location and structure indicate that it is the most important sensory tissue of the penis. Its persistence over millions of years suggests that it has played a role in the propagation of the species.

A well-integrated organ

Structurally, the penis is highly integrated. The glans, foreskin and skin of the penile shaft function as a single unit, not as a collection of separate parts with entirely different functions. The functions of the glans and foreskin are similar, and overlapping, but come fully into their own at different times during intercourse.

Simple sensations

The outer surface of the foreskin is specialized to detect feather-light touch and other sensations, including painful ones. The infamous "zipper injury" is an extreme example of the sort of damage the outer skin was designed to detect and prevent, long before the zipper posed a threat to the uninitiated.

Compared with the true (outer) skin of the foreskin, the glans is only feebly sensitive to light touch, pain, heat and cold. This is part of the reason we call the foreskin the primary sensory tissue of the penis. Without the foreskin, the end of the penis is numb to a host of sensations that tell the owner whether one of his most prized organs is in good company, or should move to safety.


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## jmmom (Sep 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jandc_hammond* 
I can't see welcoming a helpless newborn baby into the world, then inflicting unnecessary pain on him. Did you know that the majority of circs are performend without proper anesthesia? Aside from that, it's risky to use any type of anesthesia on small babies, because you can't predict dangerous adverse reactions. And circumcision has also been linked with breastfeeding failure and poor maternal-infant bonding (http://www.cirp.org/library/birth/). Keep researching...there's lots of good info out there.









:

i was glad that insurance made the decision for us before ds was born, as i felt a lot like you did. after he was born i realized just how incredibly cruel it is to circumsize newborn boys - i think it is absolutely unjustifiable. also, the foreskin makes a BIG difference during sex, whether you and your husband are aware of this or not.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky*
Although ITA with the rest of your post, I disagree with this part. In fact, the foreskin, not the glans, is the most sensitive part of the penis. The glans is relatively insensitive, and has only about the sensitivity of the heel of the foot. Yes, the glans in the intact penis is more sensitive than the glans in the circed penis, but the foreskin is where the action is: the four most sensitive parts of the penis are in the foreskin. The glans is only the most sensitive part left on the circed penis.

Yes the foreskin is the most sensitive but it protects the glans to keep it more sensitive than the circed glans that is what I ment.

Wasnt saying that the glans was like the clitoral nerve bundle in the sense that it was as sensitive as the nerve bundle. That is clear as mudd







I should have phrased it different in my OP


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## Blu Razzberri (Sep 27, 2006)

Good for you mama; for not being afraid to ask for answers! In your original post, you said

Quote:

..."why would I let an OB cut my son if i dont want him to come near me while im PG"?...
and the reason behind not circumcising is very much the same. Doctors are human, they make mistakes. Humans also have greed, and money talks. There is alot of money in circumcision and that's why it's done. (Did you know they use foreskins in some anti-wrinkle cream!!?? Makes you wonder what 'magic ingredient' is in it!).

The other thing is your DF's response

Quote:

...We talked about reasons why he would prefer it, why those reasons are really lame in all actuallity....
and the fact that you recognize his reasons' lack of substance is commendable. It's important to have good reasons to do anything related to your child.

I put together an email for a friend (complete with information and links) about why not to circumcise. If you want a copy for yourself too, PM me with your email address, I'll forward that to you. There are many lies to cover up the truths about circumcising, and exposing those lies is shocking! You'll learn so much from my email.

On a personal note.....Circumcising my son was the single biggest mistake of my life. I had no idea that what I was doing was harmful (not helpful), and I was led to believe that it was best for him. If I can offer you any advice at all, it would be to not direct your questions to the circumcising doctor... they're biast, and they'll tell you whatever you need to hear, as long as the result is you strapping your baby to their table.


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

Sera, I totally understand your concerns.

If you're anything like me, you spend a big part of your pregnancy worrying. Is the baby going to be OK? Will he be healthy? Will there be anything wrong? Particularly with a home birth, I expect you wonder how you might respond if the unthinkable happens, and there IS something wrong with the baby. I know I would have been a basket case if one of my sons had required surgery as an infant - it was hard enough for me when one of them required surgery (for a hernia) at 9 months!

But everything goes as planned. You deliver a perfect, normal, healthy baby boy. You ooh and aah over him - his gorgeous eyes, his cute little nose, his amazing fingers and toes, his ears, his knees - he's perfect in every way. Do you honestly think you will look at his penis and say "Oh GROSS! We need to have THAT fixed right away!" Can you truly imagine handing your normal, healthy, perfect baby to a doctor, to be undressed, strapped to a board, his penis injected with anesthetic (if he's lucky), to have his foreskin cut off?

You've looked at the big picture, and in the grand scheme of things, circumcision doesn't seem like that big a deal. After all, many of the men you know had it done (probably). But when you get down to the details - strapping him to the board, cutting his penis, changing that bloody diaper - I think you will find the courage to take a firm stand.

Best wishes to you.


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## DisplacedYooper (Aug 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amandaleigh37* 
But just ask yourself, are you comfortable removing a part of your son's body if you "don't feel strongly about it either way"? You can always do it later...









:

We felt the same, no good reason to do it, but no good reason not to do it either. While I was pregnant, we decided that we would leave him as he came out, since we could always get him circumcised later...







We were planning a home birth and basically didn't want to go through the hassle of making a doctor's appointment in the middle of the winter during the time when we would all be snuggling up together in bed.

Sometimes I feel very lucky that DH and I are essentially lazy people - if we'd been go-getters, Ben might have ended up cut. But, everything I thought (or didn't think) about circ changed after Ben was born. Looking at his perfect little body, I can't imagine giving him up to have any piece of him cut off. And those thought led me to this board. And now I am a proud intactivist.

Please, leave your son the way he is born. Like many other people in this thread have said, you can always make the appointment later, but my guess is that once you have fallen in love with your baby, you'll realize you don't need to.


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## blizzard_babe (Feb 14, 2007)

It sounds like you're where my DH is. He's erring on the "If I don't really know one way or the other, It's best to leave it alone."

It can always be done later if your son wants it; it can never be un-done. Like adding salt to soup... better to err on the side of nothing at the beginning than make a mistake/


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

Sera,

I have a circumcised son and an intact son, and now, years after the fact, no, it is not _that_ big of a deal. It doesn't really matter that they look a little different from one another, and they both have a pretty good chance of growing up happy with their bodies.

However, at the time of their births, it was a very, very big deal. You know this, because you already have a little girl, but when you have a new baby, he is your world. Every little decision takes on incredible importance in your mind and you believe that everything you do is shaping your child into the person he will become. Looking back on my kids' infancy, I now believe that it's not so much the child, but the _mother_, who is shaped by those early decisions.

When they ask you whether or not you're going to circumcise your new baby, it's like a test. Are you going to affirm that he is perfect just the way he was created? Are you going to listen to your instinct that is telling you to shield him from senseless violence? Are you going to trust Nature/the Creator? Or are you going to submit to culture's absurdities? Are you going to buy into the mentality that it's proper to cause a child pain now in order to stave off something worse down the road--the same mentality behind crying-it-out, spanking, etc.

Most of those early choices that we make so much of probably don't really matter that much to the child years later. My husband was bottle fed and I was breastfed--could anyone tell the difference? Can you meet a first grader and tell whether she was sleep trained or whether she coslept? Can you guess which of your neighbors were spanked? Probably not. But when you're parenting, every one of your choices reflects _who you are_ deep down, and you should be fully convinced in your own mind of the rightness of everything you do.


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## dbsam (Mar 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mrs-Mama* 
Congrats on not caving immediately to "let's circ him", and I agree with Papai that it sounds like you're for leaving him intact...just can't figure out why you feel that way.

I also wanted to leave my son intact but never educated myself to defend my position the way I should have - the way you are. We did circumcise my son - and I've always regretted it. Last week my husband also said he regrets it. (Which angered me at the time.)

The doctors recommended we have the circ re-done but we decided to leave the damage as is and hope the fact that his circ was 'under-done' - can't think of how to say it - may be a blessing.


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## dbsam (Mar 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Pickle* 
Sera,

I have a circumcised son and an intact son, and now, years after the fact, no, it is not _that_ big of a deal. It doesn't really matter that they look a little different from one another, and they both have a pretty good chance of growing up happy with their bodies.

However, at the time of their births, it was a very, very big deal. You know this, because you already have a little girl, but when you have a new baby, he is your world. Every little decision takes on incredible importance in your mind and you believe that everything you do is shaping your child into the person he will become. Looking back on my kids' infancy, I now believe that it's not so much the child, but the _mother_, who is shaped by those early decisions.

When they ask you whether or not you're going to circumcise your new baby, it's like a test. Are you going to affirm that he is perfect just the way he was created? Are you going to listen to your instinct that is telling you to shield him from senseless violence? Are you going to trust Nature/the Creator? Or are you going to submit to culture's absurdities? Are you going to buy into the mentality that it's proper to cause a child pain now in order to stave off something worse down the road--the same mentality behind crying-it-out, spanking, etc.

Most of those early choices that we make so much of probably don't really matter that much to the child years later. My husband was bottle fed and I was breastfed--could anyone tell the difference? Can you meet a first grader and tell whether she was sleep trained or whether she coslept? Can you guess which of your neighbors were spanked? Probably not. But when you're parenting, every one of your choices reflects _who you are_ deep down, and you should be fully convinced in your own mind of the rightness of everything you do.

I like the way you said this!


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

Thanks, dbsam!
You're right about not worrrying about the loose circ. It may look strange to you now, but the tighter circs can cause a lot of sexual problems down the road.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Pickle* 
When they ask you whether or not you're going to circumcise your new baby, it's like a test. Are you going to affirm that he is perfect just the way he was created? Are you going to listen to your instinct that is telling you to shield him from senseless violence? Are you going to trust Nature/the Creator? Or are you going to submit to culture's absurdities? Are you going to buy into the mentality that it's proper to cause a child pain now in order to stave off something worse down the road--the same mentality behind crying-it-out, spanking, etc.

Most of those early choices that we make so much of probably don't really matter that much to the child years later. My husband was bottle fed and I was breastfed--could anyone tell the difference? Can you meet a first grader and tell whether she was sleep trained or whether she coslept? Can you guess which of your neighbors were spanked? Probably not. But when you're parenting, every one of your choices reflects _who you are_ deep down, and you should be fully convinced in your own mind of the rightness of everything you do.

Beautiful!

Can I toss this quote into my intactivism blog, please?

Jen


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

Yeah, thanks!


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Pickle* 
Yeah, thanks!









Sweet! There it is.

Jen


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## kallyn (May 24, 2005)

Haven't read any replies yet but I wanted to respond.

My husband is circed and he is very very bitter and angry about it. It infuriates him that someone came in without his consent when he was an infant and cut off a part of HIS body that he will never be able to get back. He feels violated, robbed, and angry that he will never experience sex as nature intended.

Anyway, that was not meant to sound angry at you or anything, just explaining how my hubby feels about it. He's actually the one that brought circ up to me and convinced me not to do it if we ever have a son. I just thought it would be good for you to have a male perspective on it, so maybe your babe doesn't have to grow up feeling the same way my hubby does. If he feels strongly about circumcision later in life, he can always get it done at any point if he chooses.


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## Roxswood (Jun 29, 2006)

Just to add another 2 cents, I am from the UK where circumcision is rare except for members of certain religions. I don't know any men over here that are circumcised, my husband isn't.

But I lived in the USA for 13 months when I was 19 and had two boyfriends and they were both circumcised.

I can honestly say there was a big difference in pleasure for both me and my partner between the intact and the circed ones.

Circumcision leaves the glans looking dry and rough and almost cracked, the skin is thicker and its less sensitive. I found it dry and uncomfortable and frequently got yeast infections and felt sore, I assume from too much friction that nature didn't intend.

In intact men the glans is wet, soft and smooth and shiny, perfect like the mucous membrane its meant to be, not outside skin. Its perfect. Obviously I feel differently to American women in general because intact is normal to me, circumcision makes them look and feel damaged and wrong.


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:

I really dont think circ is necessary, but I dont feel strongly enough about it to say "NO. and THATS FINAL"
How about looking at the complications - like 10% risk of meatal stenosis, risk of amutation, infection, death. Plus the pain.

And then contrast that with NOT doing it - no pain, no complications, no risk whatsoever of anything even vaguely uncomfortable.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

This is why DF wants the baby circ'd

http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html


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## anubis (Oct 6, 2006)

Another UK member here.

This might sound really selfish, but I keep wondering how much more hassle it would be to take care of a wound than an uncut penis. I keep reading about bleeding, having to change dressings, pee or poop getting in the incision, baby crying in pain all night long, etc. To me it just sounds like a nightmare to have to deal with that when the care of a newborn isn't exactly a walk in the park to begin with. To me, it seems all kinds of backwards to pay someone to make your life with your baby that much more difficult.

That isn't the reason I'm against RIC, obviously, it's just something I sometimes wonder about.

I think cutting bits off of people without their consent isn't cool. As has been said before, the kid can choose to get circumcised as an adult, but he can't choose to uncircumcise himself. I'd err on the side of caution there.

There's also the whole issue of circ having an adverse effect on breastfeeding. I can't see myself risking that for cosmetic surgery on an infant.

I get where your partner is coming from, and I wouldn't focus on the adverse effects on the kid's sexual life as an adult when talking to him about it. As valid as those reasons are, I think I'd rather keep it on a level that seems less personal to him.


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## lovebug (Nov 2, 2004)

:


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## MilkTrance (Jul 21, 2007)

Has this been posted?

http://www.cps.ca/english/statements/FN/fn96-01.htm


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## veganf (Dec 12, 2005)

It's your son's body. Shouldn't the choice to have part of his penis removed be left up to him??


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Read my signature, please. It sums up what I have to say.


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## sg784 (Dec 19, 2004)

Ok, I have a lot to respond to, but first I want to thank everyone for being so professional and mature and understanding. I see so many posters get ripped to shreds when they post on touchy subjects. Thanks so much for keeping me comfortable. There are a few I want to respond to directly though....

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaterPrimaePuellae* 
My reasoning is something like this: Once it's done, it can't really be undone (I know people do the foreskin restoration, but...), and DS could always have it done himself when he is older (if he wants to). I see no reason *at all* to dothis to a baby when the boy can decide himself as an adolescent or adult.
I feel exactly the same way about piercing little girls' ears.
!

This is a really good comparison to make. I havent pierced my daughters ears for that reason. She can decide when and if she wants to get it done. I dont know why I didnt make the comparison myself! I like it! If its important to him when hes older, he can have it done, and even get knocked out for it right? none of this "local anesthetic" or the chance of not using one!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papai* 
It seems to me that you're already NOT for circing.

But as for the foreskin, the common misconception is that it's "just excess skin". No. It allows for skin mobility of the penis during erections. If you have a long-sleeved shirt, grab the end of the sleeve into your fist and withdraw your inward a bit. With your arm inside your shirt a bit and with the end of the sleeve in your fist, this simulates the flaccid intact penis. The skin _appears_ to be excessive but it's not. If you stretch your arm out to simulate an erection, you see that skin comes in handy. Now imagine that 30-50 percent of that skin was removed and sutured together. It's probably be a tight fit, wouldn't it? I hope what I said made sense, if not, someone else can give you a better analogy.

Most people don't realize that there is no "excessive" skin, you can't just cut off the tip. It's all one skin, that is cut, and the remaining skin is then stitched together.

This is a good analogy as well. I actually have thought of it as excessive skin.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *spewie* 
My dh and I felt almost the same way you did when we were pg with #1. I couldn't see any good reason TO do it, but I didn't think it mattered that much if we did. We could not decide. At first we thought we would wait and get it done later if we wanted to.

ETA: I no longer think that "it doesn't matter" I get really sad when those close to me choose to circ









YES! YES! YES! See, this is EXACTLY why i Posted this! Some moms feel that breast is best but they are not so convicted that they feel the need to perform "lactavis-im" on the other new moms they meet! Personally I am so dead against CHOOSING NOT to breastfeed. I feel SO strongly about it. I WANT to feel the same kind of strength in my decision as I do in my decision to BF! I used to not think twice when I saw a friend FF her baby, now I get sad inside, and wonder if there was anything that could have been done to help the mom BF so her child could experience it and reap the benefits. Hopefully after our decision is made, I will feel strongly enough that I will be able to say like you did " I no longer think that "it doesn't matter" I get really sad when those close to me choose to circ" In fact, Im feeling even stronger about it after this thread!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *13Sandals* 
Understandably, its much harder for a man whose been circumcised to process that a functioning part of his genitalia was sliced off at birth, for no good reason, or, for reasons that just haven't proven themselves.

YEs, exactly where DF is at. I wish he would explore it more deeply so he COULD process it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amandaleigh37* 
I felt the same way you did when I was pregnant. We ended up getting it done, and now it is my biggest regret. I wish someone would have convinced me then. It seems so obvious and clear to me now... I don't know why I didn't see it sooner









But just ask yourself, are you comfortable removing a part of your son's body if you "don't feel strongly about it either way"? You can always do it later... Please don't make the mistake I did. Once it's done, you can't take it back. You don't even have to decide this right now. You can decide to take your son home intact and make a decision in the weeks after he's born... I am certain if I would have done this, I would have never had it done. And then I wouldn't be dealing with the horrible guilt I have now









Thank you for posting. I really dont want to regret any decision I make. And Im so afraid that if I just let this one go I will regret it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jmmom* 
also, the foreskin makes a BIG difference during sex, whether you and your husband are aware of this or not.


I am not aware of this personally. I have only been with ONE intact partner and it was terrible. But looking back I realize perhaps it was his lack of skill not his intactness? he he

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Blu Razzberri* 
(Did you know they use foreskins in some anti-wrinkle cream!!?? Makes you wonder what 'magic ingredient' is in it!).


No WAY! ANTI WRINKLE CREAMS??? LMAO at what my imagination is coming up with to call it in the ingredients list!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nd_deadhead* 
... You deliver a perfect, normal, healthy baby boy. You ooh and aah over him - his gorgeous eyes, his cute little nose, his amazing fingers and toes, his ears, his knees - he's perfect in every way. Do you honestly think you will look at his penis and say "Oh GROSS! We need to have THAT fixed right away!" Can you truly imagine handing your normal, healthy, perfect baby to a doctor, to be undressed, strapped to a board, his penis injected with anesthetic (if he's lucky), to have his foreskin cut off?


Wow. This is a really good one to use with DF. I love the simplicity

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Pickle* 
Sera,
Most of those early choices that we make so much of probably don't really matter that much to the child years later. My husband was bottle fed and I was breastfed--could anyone tell the difference? Can you meet a first grader and tell whether she was sleep trained or whether she coslept? Can you guess which of your neighbors were spanked? Probably not. But when you're parenting, every one of your choices reflects _who you are_ deep down, and you should be fully convinced in your own mind of the rightness of everything you do.

This also makes prefect sense.

I feel much stronger about it that I did when DF and I had the initial conversation, I think I am better prepared to put my foot down, I just wish I felt more confident in my ability to bring him over to my side of the fence. However, I dont think Im sitting on the top of the fence or even looking at the other side anymore. Thanks so much!


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## bluetoes (May 12, 2007)

SG this has been my experience. Before I was pregnant I knew I wouldn't do it personally but wasn't too pushed either way. Once I was pregnant I was more annoyed people would do it and argued against it in my DDC. I was grossed out by the pictures. But it was really only when my son was born and I saw how perfect he was and got to see what a baby winkie looks like (i.e. how safe is it to operate on something that wee when you really don't have to?) that I REALLY turned intactivist. And I get more so everyday as my son grows my loves for him grows.

Sometimes I wish I didn't have the sadness and anger about the subject I do but TRULY realising circ means makes me disgusted than anyone could do that a poor little innocent baby and how easy the medical community makes it.


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## Blu Razzberri (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sg784* 
...No WAY! ANTI WRINKLE CREAMS??...


Yes'm. Here is the article from NBC news. I wonder what they call it too "discarded collagen"...???







:


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## Daisyuk (May 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sg784* 
No WAY! ANTI WRINKLE CREAMS??? LMAO at what my imagination is coming up with to call it in the ingredients list!


Oh yes, and that's just the tiny tip of a VERY large iceberg in the foreskin industry. There's billions of dollars riding on keeping the foreskin flow going.

Here's a post I made some time ago now, don't know if all the links are still working, but probably enough for you to get the idea.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...6&postcount=21


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## Mrs-Mama (Jul 2, 2007)

Sounds like your mama-instincts are talking to you. Keep listening!


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## hipmummy (May 25, 2007)

I went through the same process with my Dh. After the birth, ds had to go to the NICU and dh looked at me and said after all the baby had been through and all you have been through (transfer), there is no way we are circ' ing him. Before ds was born we had screaming matches about it. It really made me very ill.

What a great way to become a senior member I think this is my thousandth post. I am glad it is in this ddc. If it were not for Mothering, I may have sadly given in and been depressed about dh having " his son" circ'd.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

I saw this link in another tread and it made me think that it was the perfectly simple answer to why we feel passionate that one shouldn't circ. It's not an intactivist site or some scarey vidoe or pictures of a one in a million accident. It's just mommy after mommy dealing with a now problematic circ'd penis.


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## Daisyuk (May 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
I saw this link in another tread and it made me think that it was the perfectly simple answer to why we feel passionate that one shouldn't circ. It's not an intactivist site or some scarey vidoe or pictures of a one in a million accident. It's just mommy after mommy dealing with a now problematic circ'd penis.

Yeah, and it hasn't occurred to _any_ of them that maybe they shouldn't have done it!

They are causing all this pain and suffering for their children, even in the teeth of being told by the medics that their children are normal. Why the obsession with manipulating their kids' genitals? UGH.

I wish someone would pipe up and tell them to leave well alone, that they've caused their kids enough pain, and have reduced their sexuality for no reason at all.

A generation of boys is going to grow up with a memory that their penis is a source of nothing but pain to them (caused by their _mother_ constantly playing with it) - how screwed up is that?


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## Yulia_R (Jan 7, 2006)

if you pm me your email, I'll send you alot of good info (studies that were published in medical magazines, videos, etc).
yulia.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Here's a great website that explains it well:

http://www.circumstitions.com/Itsaboy.html


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## clintonhillmama (Dec 21, 2006)

growing up, our family rabbi was also a mohel - i vaguely remember him coming into our hebrew school classroom with his equipment & showing us how it was done.... little did he know what a disservice he was doing - it just left me with a yucky feeling.

i never considered circ-ing my ds, i just felt it was unnecessary.

then, i saw a video of how it's done in "birth as we know it" - YIKES!!!!! i'm practically traumatized.

i would show your partner a video of how it's done - he'll be convinced not to do it then.


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roxswood* 
Obviously I feel differently to American women in general because intact is normal to me, circumcision makes them look and feel damaged and wrong.

I have to beg to differ about American women feeling differently... all the American women I know (I'm an American) who have been with both circumcised and intact men (and therefore can compare) have assured me that intact is definitely much more comfortable and preferable to circumcised... most American women have never been with an intact men and are therefore not qualified to make the comparison.

I've never been with a circumcised man, so I'm not qualified to compare either, but my friends tell me I'm not missing out on anything and that I'm very fortunate to have an intact husband.

On that topic... my husband is intact and my FIL is circumcised. My dh is very very grateful that my FIL didn't insist that my dh be circumcised. I'm very happy about that as well and I have no complaints







So much for the "matching" argument and the "but his future partner will prefer it" argument.

Good for you for looking into this! It can be very hard to go against cultural norms, but I have yet to meet a mama who regretted NOT circumcising. There's a whole thread up top about mamas who regret circumcising... and that's just at this one message board...

love and peace.


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Oh, about adult circumcision. I have one friend who chose to be circumcised as a 20 year old (or 19... I don't remember). He was completely knocked out during the surgery and had ample pain meds prescribed for the healing period. He said it wasn't a big deal (the procedure itself), though he regretted having it done afterwards because he did it at the request of a girlfriend who dumped him very soon afterwards







:

He was still glad that his parents left the decision up to him although he did choose to be circumcised later on.

Other than that... I know several circumcised men who are furious that their parents circumcised them, I know many circumcised men who don't care, and I know many intact men who are very happy that they have all their equipment (one of whom is my dh). The one friend who chose to be circumcised later in life is the only intact man I have ever met who wanted to be circumcised (and he didn't even decide that he wanted it on his own since his gf was pressuring him).

love and peace.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daisyuk* 
I wish someone would pipe up and tell them to leave well alone,

I just joined for this very reason







.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Another thing to consider is the fact that infant boys born today have a much higher chance of being left intact than in your partner's generation. Boys who are circumcised today are going to go to school (or if homeschooled learned through peer activities, etc.) and find out their friends have an entire penis. These circumcised boys are going to realize, "Hey, my friend is perfectly fine and healthy, he has no trouble getting a date on weekends, and he has his whole penis. What gives?"

The boys who are circumcised are going to quickly realize that something was done to them that didn't need to happen. They're going to start questioning their parents about why they would make a decision to permanently change their genitals, when there was nothing wrong at birth, and when most men have no problems at all with a whole penis.


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## Blu Razzberri (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
...It's just mommy after mommy dealing with a now problematic circ'd penis...


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daisyuk* 
...Yeah, and it hasn't occurred to _any_ of them that maybe they shouldn't have done it!...

Boy...this statement sure doesn't apply to ME. I'm so angry and appalled that I was lied to for the sake of monetary gain. One should be able to trust that a doctor will do what's best for a child, yet that simply isn't the case. When I inquired about the reasons for circ, it was implied that I would be doing harm if I didn't, I received not one shred of information indicating that I shouldn't or WHY I shouldn't.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daisyuk* 
...There's billions of dollars riding on keeping the foreskin flow going....









:







:







: It's worse than I knew! At least my sons skin was put to good use, eh?







:


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## HeathenMommy (Nov 5, 2007)

Let me just say, I've not had much experience with a number of various male organs. So my sample group is tiny... (the number in it- not necessarily...)

However, the only time I've been able to climax from genital sex exclusively was with an intact boy. And we were both very young and completely inexperienced and so his "talents" were not the reason. There was a distinct physical response that this boy aroused in me, so much so that even half my life later, it's STILL the image I use when considering an optimal sexual experience.

Aside from the fact that mutilation of a defenseless human being is always wrong, your child will not hate you for leaving him in better stead than his mutilated peers.


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Blu Razzberri* 
Boy...this statement sure doesn't apply to ME. I'm so angry and appalled that I was lied to for the sake of monetary gain. One should be able to trust that a doctor will do what's best for a child, yet that simply isn't the case. When I inquired about the reasons for circ, it was implied that I would be doing harm if I didn't, I received not one shred of information indicating that I shouldn't or WHY I shouldn't.

I'm so sorry. That was so incredibly wrong.


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

Sera! Hi! I'm so glad you're questioning circumcision. We didn't have either of the boys done (and never would). Dh did not like the idea of not doing it 2 years ago, but he doesn't understand why people WOULD do it now. I would tell your dh it just won't happen, he'll eventually come to understand why.


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## kimkabob5 (Oct 25, 2002)

It hit me one day in the shower on a "ding ding" sort of way. I was washing my privates and I the thought came to my head, "how would I feel if someone strapped me down when I was a newborn and had part of me cut off with a sharp instrument that hurt like heck?"

The word rape came to my mind. It's MY body, MY most private parts, NO ONE has the right to touch and certainly not cut them.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daisyuk* 
A generation of boys is going to grow up with a memory that their penis is a source of nothing but pain to them (caused by their _mother_ constantly playing with it) - how screwed up is that?

God/dess, Daisy, I love you for having the ovaries to put it so plainly.


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