# I've begun nightweaning.......



## squeakermansmom (Sep 17, 2002)

thought i'd post my nightweaning story here as i may need lots of support in the following days. tonight will be night #2. let me first tell you about my ds. he's 15months old and has always been an ALL NIGHT NURSER. he had always nursed to sleep until about 2 months ago when i started letting my dh put him down sometimes. he would fuss some initially when he realized daddy would be putting him down for the night, but he would generally fall asleep faster and stay asleep longer with less night wakenings when sleeping with dh. when he would sleep with me, he would wake to nurse about every hour and many times my nipple would need to stay in his mouth most of the night. my dh and i called it BDD - boobie distraction disorder - when he slept with me he HAD to have the milkies. when he slept with dh, he seemed to sleep better since he knew he wouldn't be getting any milkies.

for this reason and my growing frustration of night nursing - i have decided to nightwean. don't get me wrong - there were nights that were fine and i didn't mind night nursing, but there were also plenty of nights where i was tired and tired of night nursing. i long for the night when i can sleep in any position i want - whenever i want.

so last night i nursed him before we got into bed. then laid down with him and explained milkies have gone night - night. he whimpered, maybe even cried a little, but honestly nothing major. he tossed and turned a lot until finally he fell asleep. he slept until about 4:30am at which time he awoke and did the sign for milkies. he cried a little and then finally fell back asleep. slept until 6:30am at which time i nursed him in bed.

i'm hoping tonight goes as well as last night. i've already put him down for the night and that went ok. before shutting the lights out i explained that "mommy goes night-night, joseph goes night-night and milkies go night-night." i also explained we could have milkies again in the morning. now, i don't know how much a 15 month old can understand of what i just said, but let me tell you - he seemed to totally get it. he turned his lower lip down and started to cry on my shoulder. not the angry, tantrum type cry - but the mommy i love the milkies, please don't tell me i can't have them till morning cry. a bit heartwrenching, but i knew this would not be without some sadness on his part. i shut the lights out and the whimpering/crying lasted only another 3-4 minutes tops. again, it was not the top of his lungs crying that ds has exhibited on many occasions of not getting his way. i stayed with him and patted his back and told him mommy loved him. i managed to sneak out about 15 minutes later.

a couple things i've done to help - most importantly 1. wore a tshirt with no easy access. and 2. sippy cup available on night stand.

i'll keep everyone posted - and please if anyone has any suggestions please let me know! sorry so long!


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## squeakermansmom (Sep 17, 2002)

just an update....if anyone's interested. last night went great!!! he slep thru till 4am at which time he awoke and asked for the milkies. he quieted back to sleep with only minimal whimpering within about 15-20 minutes. slept until about 6:30 at which time i nursed him. we both slept till about 8am (our usual).

tonight i nursed him on the couch before getting into bed. after crawling into bed with him, he just seemed to know there would be no nursing to sleep. he didn't even really whimper - he just snuggled up next to me and fell asleep in less than 10 minutes.

i am so ecstatic!!! i don't want to jinx myself but this definitely seems to be going better than i thought. i'm sleeping great, he's sleeping great and he doesn't seem any different during the waking hours. all this from my high-need, all night nurser!!!!

thanks for listening!


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## amcal (Jan 13, 2003)

I'm so glad it's going so well! I had to night wean when I got pg - my DD was only 9 mo at the time and it was really hard but she adjusted and within a month was sleeping through the night. Sounds like you're handling it gently and with much love. Your little guy is lucky to have such a loving mommy!


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## LeShea (Aug 20, 2002)

that sounds great! I long for a night of unrestrained tossing and turning in bed.................LOL!! My dd is 11 months and I am holding out for a bit more...........


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## rosebuds (May 23, 2003)

That is really great!!









It is hard to stick to night weaning but it sure is sweet when you start to see results! Your Joseph seems to be taking to it really well, my Ashlin had given up quite a fight for 4 nights, I was near giving up trying nw for another month or so but I am overjoyed to report that lastnight she only woke 3 times and each time I just had to cuddle her back to sleep, no walking the halls, no crying, no breastfeeding. I am knocking on wood though after posting! lol.

Keep the successes coming and for those of you who arent there yet...IT WILL HAPPEN when you and babe are ready.

Happy Snoozing!


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## squeakermansmom (Sep 17, 2002)

Nightweaning still going well although our routine has been thrown off a little since ds is sick. (i wonder if thats why he has been sleeping so well?!?) all is not lost though - we're still not nursing to sleep or nursing throughout most of the night. i have had to nurse him a bit earlier the past 2 nights (5AM & 3AM) however i offered only b/c he was tossing and turning and just seemed miserable. he wasn't crying for it or mad b/c i didn't initially offer it. i'm hoping to get back on track now that dh is off for a few nights and can help out a bit.

thanks everyone for the support! i'll keep you posted. Rosebuds, i'm so glad to hear your night went better than the night before. it sounds like you're making real progress. isn't is amazing to think that we might actually be able to see a good nights sleep on a semi-regular basis?

jodi


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## rosebuds (May 23, 2003)

Sorry your ds is sick







Hope it doesn't set you back too much but isn't it nice that with bf you can comfort them anytime if needed, nice that we have that option.

My night was another wonderful one, she still is waking 3 times a night but it is sooooo much easier to get her back to sleep and even with waking 3 times that is cut in half from where we started. All she needs to go back to sleep is a little pat on the back with me lying nice and close to her (she likes to feel my breath on her face, ahhhh) or sometimes all it takes is me saying "shhhh shhhh shhh shhhh".

I wonder if playing white noise would work for an 18 month old?

I really think that one of the things that has helped us is having changed our location...moving her out of our bed into her own toddler bed. She truly loves her bed. Although like I said above she does like to have me close when falling asleep so I just curl up with her in the little bed till she is sleeping.

I loved co-sleeping with her, in fact I still feel we could fit into some broad definition of co-sleeping. Her bed is in the same room as me, within arms reach, I cuddle with her in her bed throughout the night, I bring her into my bed at 6am (this has always been a constant time for her to wake up and nurse so I am not messing with that one. so when she wakes up at 6 I bring her into bed with me and have that wonderful good morning snuggle time)

I am so amazed that it is going so well so soon. It is more than I had expected.

I wanted to talk about our new bedtime routine, perhaps I will start a new thread on that tho. How are you getting your ds to sleep now that you arent nursing down?

Good luck to you Jodi with Josephs cold (?), hope it passes quickly.

More sleep vibes to all...


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## squeakermansmom (Sep 17, 2002)

Rosebuds - i am soooo excited for you. it seems like your nights are getting better and better! Yipee! isn't it exciting to think our children can fall asleep and stay asleep without us? Especially when they have been sooo dependent on us for sleep in the past. in fact, i am finding that ds is actually wanting to snuggle more during the day now that we've started nightweaning. before he only wanted the milkies - it was like it was all he could think about. now, he comes up, gives me a hug and just snuggles. So cute!

question for you - when did your dd start showing interest in a toddler bed? we're still cosleeping and i'm not ready to change that yet, however the thought of transitioning him to a toddler bed in the future has crossed my mind. somehow, though, i don't think ds would do it very willingly. rosebuds - is you toddler bed in your room?

not much new with our nightweaning. dh slept with ds last night. will probably do the same thing tonight and maybe tom. we have friends coming in a few days and there won't be a spare room for several weeks so i'm taking advantage of the extra bed now.

thanks and happy dreaming....


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## rosebuds (May 23, 2003)

Well lastnight Ashlin woke up every 1 to 2 hours and I thought we were totally regressing, woke up in the morning to see her poor little nose running.









Squeakermansmom, hope this isn't a disease of night weaning!







: No, just kidding.

She has been nursing all morning, seriously, like 3.5hrs out of 4.

I didn't nurse her at all lastnight, there were no stuffiness symptoms or anything. We shall see how it goes tonight. If she gets pretty stuffy or miserable I guess I will have to nurse her a bit throughout the night as she needs, hope it doesnt go there tho, we have been doing so well.

How has Joseph been doing? How many times does he wake up? Do you walk around with him, cuddle him, what is your routine to get him back to sleep. How do you get him to go down at the beginning of the night. I know dh does some of it, do you have to walk around with him or just lie down?

I have been putting in quite a few hours in Ashlins toddler bed, wondering if maybe I am not ready to stop co-sleeping! I thought I was, I will just go with the flow.

I posted some of my bedtime routine stuff under the thread _*? for non-schedulers*_ http://216.92.20.151/discussions/sho...threadid=76481
If you feel like it check it out and let me know what you think.

Waterbabee...hope to see you here soon

Oh and Squeakermansmom, her toddler bed is in Delaney's room. Delaney has a twin that I share with her (for now) and Ashlins bed is within arms reach of it. Dh is enjoying our queen all to himself these days, after nearly a year on the couch he is pretty happy there, now if he could just get his dw back!


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## waterbabee (Nov 20, 2002)

Hi.
Well, my goal with Zoe is to not nurse her until dawn, which is about 5:00 around here. My dh always says he will help with the nightweaning, but at 3 in the morning, there is no rousing him, so we've been kind of half-a**ed doing it for a month now so I've decided to take matters into my own hands!
We just got through night #2; not quite as good as night #1, but okay.
#1: Zoe went down at 9:00, woke at 2:30 and I picked her up and swayed with her and sang her favorite song and ohm'd (the vibration of my chest always calms her) and after about half an hour, she fell back out. She never really got too mad, I was pleasantly surprised how easy it went. Then she woke up at 5:30 and at that time, I nursed her.
#2: She went down at 9:00, woke at 10:00 because it's sooo hot, but fell back to sleep easily with a little patting, woke again at 1:30, at that time I swayed and sang and after about half an hour, she fell back asleep without too much fuss. But then she woke up again at 3:00 and I did our thing for a half an hour, but she just kept getting more and more revved up, and at that point was screaming, so I nursed at 3:30. Not too bad. Then again at 6:00.
Considering that she has been nursing about every 1.5 hours her whole life, I think we're on a good roll. Last night it was just so hot that she kept waking up sweating, and I'd offer her water in her sippy cup by her bed, which she always has a sip of, but I think after waking up 3 times and not nursing, she was ready for it.
I am feeling positive about all this, I feel as if we are doing the right thing. Elise will be a much happier mommy once she starts getting some sleep.
Ready for #3!


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## rosebuds (May 23, 2003)

I am wimping out!

I just nursed Ashlin to sleep tonight because I am sooooo exhausted, bad night last night, or I should say bad morning. I have been doing well with nursing her and then unlatching her and letting her fall asleep on her own but tonight I just wanted the quickest possible route to sleep and I guess I got what I wanted but I really dont want to keep slipping back into old habits!

Lastnight was a horrible bedtime. I was alone with both Delaney (3) and Ashlin (18m.) and I could not get them to sleep. I was desperate for some quiet time before dh got home from work and every minute that they stayed awake I felt like an assault on my alone time. (terrible I know, but I was cranky!







) It took more than 1.5hrs to get them to sleep and it was anything but peaceful.









Once Ashlin was asleep though she slept until 3:30am, a full 6.5 hours, her longest stretch to date







but then when she woke at 3:30 she was up nearly every 1/2 hour till 6 when she was up for the day. She had an early nap which was cut short by her sister jumping on her, grrrrr. So when bedtime came tonight I just did what I had to do to get her to sleep, hope it doesn't make her want it all night.

edited to say: I say I am wimping out because I have been relying on the breast a lot more often for naps the past few days as well, when my original goal was to not ever nurse to sleep so she doesnt expect it, kwim? And since I have been doing that she has woken in the night asking for 'boobies' where there had been a couple of nights that she didn't even utter the word. I am afraid I am confusing her.

Well, I have an hour to myself till dh gets home so I am off for a nice hot bath, will be back to check on you guys later, hope you are all doing well!


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## squeakermansmom (Sep 17, 2002)

Acckkkk!! I've been away from the computer for a day or two and tonight i check in to see my nightweaning partner, Rosebuds, in a state of fatigue and unsure if she can weather the storm.

Rosebuds, don't give up! Even if you feel like you've regressed in the past few days, that's ok. When joseph got sick we regressed a little too, but now he seems to have picked up where we left off. Last week when he was feeling pretty bad with a fever, etc., i ended up nursing him as early as 3am. And if you were dead tired tonight, then nursing her to sleep tonight was OK. I know how hard it is to get 10 minutes to myself when my dh is working his 5 12 hour shifts in a row. its like i'm a single parent at that time. just try to get as much sleep as possible even if it means napping with your girls during the day for the next week or so. and listen to your heart....if you think Ashlin needs to be nursed during the night then do it. its hard when they're sick. just try to pick up where you left off when she starts feeling better. just my 2 cents but i hope this helps. Let me know how it goes, i will be anxious to hear.

Welcome Waterbabee!!! Sounds like its going well for you so far! Keep us informed of your progress.

As for us, ds seems to be feeling better every day, although he now has a bit of a cough. took him to the pediatrician yesterday and she thought he was ok. we didn't nurse to sleep tonight and he seemed ok with that. he tossed and turned for about 10-15 minutes but then finally drifted off. Dh is back at work now for 5 days, so should be interesting to see how tonight goes. Wish me luck!


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## rosebuds (May 23, 2003)

: banana


















































ASHLIN SLEPT THROUGH THE NIGHT!
















Yippee!







First full night of sleep that I have had in practically 3 years!!!









Do I ever feel like a heel for complaining lastnight!







Thanks Squeakermansmom for your kind words! Funny how things take on a much brighter perspective after sleeping for a full 7 hours!









Ashlin tossed around a few times in the night and I just shhh shhh shhh'ed her and she never really opened her eyes. She did wake up at 5:30am but that is her natural waking time, brought her into dh and my bedroom to nurse for about an hour then we both woke up. I am sooooo thrilled.









Her cold is hardly noticeable, just a bit of a runny nose. I am glad to hear Joseph is feeling better.









Funny Jodi, your dh is back to work, mine is off for 5 days now. I am intersested to see how it goes for you.

Waterbabee, how are things going for you? I totally know what you are saying about dh having good intentions during the day but by night there is no sign of life, I have harboured much resentment towards my dh at times, mostly due to my own sleep deprived state rather than any actual injustice on his part. I also tried night weaning Ashlin in a half-a**ed sort of way off and on for months, that is what prompted me to post for a support team to keep me in check. I have found that once I really 100% stuck to my plan that it worked almost right away, within the first week anyways. Like you said for your dd, Ashlin had the hardest nights probably the 2nd, 3rd and 4th nights. That is when I was thinking of cutting back and adding more night feedings back into the night but sure enough the very next night was great. Anyways, let us know how your past couple nights have been, keep up the good nights everyone!

I am sending you all some sleepy dust...


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## waterbabee (Nov 20, 2002)

So, Rosebuds, when Ashlin slept through the night, were you able to? I find that I am so trained to waking up every hour or two that I can't sleep anymore? Any thoughts on that?

Well, I didn't do so well on night #3, as dh and I went out to dinner and I went to bed so late that my foggy sleepy brain didn't even remember I was nightweaning, so she probably nursed around 3:00. Not too bad I guess since she went to bed at 8:45 and didn't even wake up until then!
But back on track night #4-to bed at 9:30, woke at 2:30, picked her up and back to sleep after only about 30 seconds of real fussing and about 10 minutes of whimpering, awake at 5:00 to nurse for our normal morning marathon









I think tonight I'm going to try not picking her up to get her back to sleep at the 2:30 time. Just try to snuggle and sing and such.

I hate to jinx the good thing I have going here, but this is actually a lot easier than I thought. She seems to be okay with it, which makes me really feel okay with it too. She is already consistently sleeping longer stretches.

I'm glad to have you guys to keep me on track too. No whimping out for me this time.


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## squeakermansmom (Sep 17, 2002)

so good to hear you had a great night last night, rosebuds! i was thinking about you. last night was good for us too! he didn't go to sleep until a little later but slept all the way through till 5:30 when i nursed him and we slept till 9. Yippee!!! he seems to understand no milkies at night anymore. hope tonight goes as well as last night.


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## squeakermansmom (Sep 17, 2002)

waterbabee - i think we were just posting at the same time b/c i didn't see your post before i posted. Does that make any sense????? anyway, just wanted to say that i'm so happy everyone seems to be doing so well. i don't want to jinx myself, but........i can't believe how good ds is responding. its simply amazing from my former all night nurser. i'm so happy to hear that you all are doing just as good. well, off for another night.....sweet dreams everyone!


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## rosebuds (May 23, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by waterbabee_
*when Ashlin slept through the night, were you able to? I find that I am so trained to waking up every hour or two that I can't sleep anymore? Any thoughts on that?*
Yes, I definitely experienced that but much more so about a month ago when I was half a**ed trying. I initially had a difficult time falling asleep at the start of the night. I was putting Ashlin to sleep w/o nursing and once she was asleep I would lay there, tossing and turning for about 4 hrs. I chalked it up to my body missing that bedtime prolactin. You know that horomone(?) that is produced to help you relax so your milk lets down. That was my theory anyways. This time around I am not having any trouble getting to sleep but I do wake often in the night, probably out of habit, anticipation of Ashlin waking and also to check on her. I think we will all have to make adjustments as our babies sleeping patterns change.

Ashlin didn't sleep through lastnight but was easily comforted back to sleep each time. I am ecstatic about her progress there, she is so persistant in her personality I thought it was going have a much harder time with her. Now I just have to look forward to the night wakings to phase out, see if her sister is ready to sleep through the night w/o me in her bed and maybe, just maybe I will sleep with my dh once again!

I wonder how long till she sleeps through without the night wakings?

_disclaimer: although I am anxious to sleep in my own bed I have LOVED and CHERISHED every moment of our co-sleeping life!_

Have you noticed a difference in the behaviour in your children since they have been getting more sleep? Jodi I know you said Joseph was more cuddly during the day. Ashlin has been nursing like mad during the day, cuddly too but hasn't let up on the bfing at all. She will nurse almost every hour unless we are out and about. She has always been a frequent nurser so I cant really say that she is nursing more now to make up for the lost nursings during the night. I do believe though that she is less frustrated and upset during the day (knock on wood as we enter the next 6 months leading up to the terrific twos!)

We are all doing so well! Congrats Mommies!


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## waterbabee (Nov 20, 2002)

Oh, I don't even want to talk about last night...horrible, horrible, horrible. We had a nurse-a-thon from about 2 on. Dh is just no help at all, grrrrr, after waking up 5 times, it was all over for me.
Guess I did jinx myself









Try try again.


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## rosebuds (May 23, 2003)

Oh I am so sorry for you Elise!









What night was lastnight for you? I think night 4 was Ashlins worst night of all and it got better from there. I hope you have a better night tonight!!!!

Dont knock yourself for giving in and doing the nurse a thon, the night after my weakest night Ashlin slept through so just try to keep on!

Sorry dh hasn't been more help for you! I know sometimes even if they dont help with the baby it helps to know that they are awake with you and available if you need them. Sometimes that is all my dh would have to do to keep me on his good side, stay awake on the edge of the bed. The nights that he slept (which far outnumber those that he didn't) I would get double frustrated with the night wakings and would get so dang angry!







That was always sad because I felt that the baby would pick up on that and not know why mom was so upset. Sorry for you, I have btdt and want to send you a nice big hug.







s

Dont give up, it WILL get better!


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## waterbabee (Nov 20, 2002)

I think that was night 5. I guess I was expecting to have a lapse, hopefully that was it. Maybe she will sleep through the night like Ashlin did after horror night. Crossing my fingers...


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## squeakermansmom (Sep 17, 2002)

i'm so sorry waterbabee - i hope i didn't jinx you. our night last night was not the best either. he slept till 4:30 but then didn't really go back to sleep until about 6am. woke again at 6:30 and then i finally nursed him. of course i think he went to bed too early and i went too late. he went around 9p and i didn't go until 1am. and it probably doesnt' help that i now have ds's cold. ugghhh!! i feel horrible. i also just noticed yesterday that he's getting two molars. i guess we'll see how tonight goes. he didn't go down until 11something so i'm hoping for a good night. don't lose faith waterbabee - it will get better, just hang in there.


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## True Blue (May 9, 2003)

Not sure if you all are still actively trying here but can I join you? I want so bad for my ds to sleep better. I'm so tired! We did some nightweaning in the past couple months, and generally I have him down to 2 nursings, 2am and then 4-6am, though the ams can end up being multiples as I try to gain more sleep hours for me.







I tried not nursing except at 2am the past few nights, and last night i just couldn't take it. He was beside himself for over half an hour, and he has gone on for over an hour before. Before bed last night he got mad at me that it was bedtime and wouldn't come near me and actually hit me 3 times when I tried to come near him! (he is almost 15mos) So sad. So I wonder if I am doing more damage than good. When he wakes, we snuggle and I sing and rub his back and stroke his head. Any tips? Also he has an obsession with pulling my hair when he is tired, which I have been trying to stop for a long time. It wasn't so bad when he at least nursed but when I don't nurse him he goes after my hair with a passion. I have tried dolls. I really want him to sleep better! Help!


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## squeakermansmom (Sep 17, 2002)

nightweaning is continuing to go quite well. we typically don't nurse to sleep anymore and we usually nurse around 5am although i have done it as early as 4am within the last week. we then nurse most of the am until we wake up. its amazing - my ds now sleeps from about 9-10pm till about 5a and only wakes maybe once. and when he does wake he is usually very easy to get back to sleep. granted, it could all change tommorrow, but i'm very happy with the results so far.

welcome truebluexf! everyone is different and i don't want to tell you to do anything that you don't think would feel right. i will just tell you what i think helped us be successful: i thought about and researched nightweaning for a very LONG time before ever doing it. when i finally decided to go thru with it i decided that i needed to do it all the way. what i mean is that i told myself i wouldn't nurse him till early morning. i knew he would be upset and cry about it, but i came to terms with that beforehand. i would stay by him and comfort him, but i knew he didn't NEED the milkies. i was prepared to lose sleep for a few nights. also, i used a t-shirt that would make it harder to access the milkies. had a sippy cup of water by the bed. and most important, i came to MDC for support. Hope this helps!

rosebuds and waterbabee - how's it going?


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## True Blue (May 9, 2003)

Jodi, it seems like we have done everything you have done! I keep a sippy cup of water for when he gets really thirsty. It just gets so hard at night when he is so hysterical and trying to leave the bed, etc. But I just really started to wonder if I was doing more bad than good when he acted so funny the other night, crying just because we went to the bed and then not wanting to cuddle...I feel like I have hurt him emotionally. I was really serious about finishing nightweaning until that point. It was a lot better when I started eliminating night feedings 2 months ago, he would cry for a little bit then just be awake but not crying for a while. Now it is like I am pulling out his toenails....I used the Gordon method, more or less, just modified it for one feeding in the middle of the night instead of a strange 7 hours stretch. Do I need to start that again, nurse him for a few minutes when he wakes up and not again til he sleeps for at least a little while and break him in again? I just want to find the best way to do this a little more painlessly!! Any links, etc anyone has would be greatly appreciated!


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## rosebuds (May 23, 2003)

Hello my nightweaning partners! Welcome aboard truebluexf!

Well I havent had much to report. Ashlin has been doing quite well, I dare say that she is beginning to sleep through the night more consistently. There have been many nights where she has woken 3 or more times but I dont mind because the number of nights that she sleeps for longer stretches are climbing.

How often do your babes nap? Are they down to one nap a day? How do you get them to go to sleep for thier naps? I have cont'd to nurse Ashlin down for her naps and I dont see it interfering so much with our nights so...if it aint broke dont fix it! As you all know I have a 3 yr. old as well so during the day I need Ashlin to get to sleep as soon as I can so I dont have to keep the 3 yr. old at bay for as long. It can take Ashlin up to an hour to fall asleep so while I have her sister occupied during the day I just want to take care of business as fast as I can. KWIM?

I miss nursing Ashlin to sleep initially at night as it was so relaxing, and a bit quicker than our routine now. Although I have to say there have been a few nights where I tried to nurse her down and she would not go to sleep at the breast, guess I have been successful at breaking the habit, now I cant really fall back on it! Thats good.

Her good nights sound a lot like yours Jodi. She falls asleep by 9pm and then is up at 5am-6am to snuggle and nurse. This is bliss!

Truebluexf, my night weaning attempts were horrid until I did it this time around, being absolute in my efforts. That is why I think having this thread really helped me...I felt the need to really stick to my plan and not give in. I wouldnt say I used any particular method (No Cry Sleep Solution or Gordon method, although I did read both and probably gleaned certain tips from them) I basically felt confident that Ashin didnt need the 'feedings' in the night and just cut them out all at once. It was what I felt the easiest for her and I because I had been so unsuccessful at just trying to cut down on night feedings. I beleive it confused her too much to be nursed to sleep one time but not the next time. We did have some awful times as well with Ashlin crying so hard to the point where I was crying too. But honestly it did not last long. It was no where even close to CIO although at the time I felt like I was using CIO.







It took about a week of 'some' hard cries, maybe 3 excrutiating bouts of tears over that span of time. I was always holding her, rocking her, talking to her, comforting and reassuring her. Dh was there to take over once I broke down. If Ashlin would have continued to have a hard time with it past a full week of trying I probably would have stalled the night weaning for a bit longer. I say that now in retrospect though, I see between myself and squeakermansmom that we both saw results within a week. So that leads me to believe that if things have only gotten worse after a week, your ds may not be ready. Remember too though that you know him best...how persistant is he, is it in his nature to really stand his ground, if so he is definitely not going to be happy about having his nursings reduced but that doesnt mean that he can learn to be quite happy once he transitions. I doubt that you have traumatised him by this, you have been there for him, rocking and singing to him, have you given him extra cuddles during the day too? Like I said above, if he continues to fight this and it doesnt get easier after you really stick to your plan for about a week then maybe let it go for awhile. As far as the hair pulling thing try removing his hand and saying "flat hand only" so that he is just petting your hair. Show him how to do it and be consistent without getting upset. He will likely get the hang of it and just need casual reminders.

HTH, hope I wasn't rambling too much...let us know how you do in the nights to follow!


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## True Blue (May 9, 2003)

Thanks for the advice and support.







We've actually done everything you all are doing with much less success, even when I have been a hardbutt about it for several nights. Like I said, I gave up the other night after I saw some serious signs he was being affected by the method and change. Before I decide to wait another month or two, I went baack to Dr. Sears's site and we tried one more new thing last night....I didn't sleep with my baby for the first time ever.







That sucked. But he slept with DH and while he did wake up very often, he did fine without nursing til I couldn't take it anymore and snuck into bed next to him at 5am.







I was achingly full anyway!! So we are going to try that again tonight and see how it goes, maybe a few nights with no boobie available will get him into sleeping longer stretches! Keep your fingers crossed for us.....


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## Juelie's Mom (Nov 19, 2002)

Okay-- I'm inspired!

I came on looking for help and you have all given me many ideas. I'm going to create a night routine -and stick to it this time-. Starting tomorrow. I'm planning to use the tactics you all have been sharing. So Juels and I are now onboard with ya! I'll update soon!

Holly


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## waterbabee (Nov 20, 2002)

I sat out for a few days there, as we had a few bad nights in a row. But we're up and running again. Zoe is also really starting to sleep longer stretches-and is putting her self back to sleep a lot more. She does about the same as the others--she goes to bed about 9 and usually wakes up once, dh or I rock her back to sleep, and then about 5 nurses, and nurses about every hour after that til we get up at 8. This coming from a babe that was nursing almost every hour or two all night long. She has gotten a little clingier during the day, but I"m rolling with it, and giving her as much milkie during the day as she wants. I still nurse her to sleep for her nap and going to sleep at night too. I don't find that it confuses her. Good luck to our new cohorts!


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## rrr (Aug 8, 2003)

there are lot's of benefits for both mother and child to continue at least some night nursing and co sleeping.

as they get older and busier, sometimes they are too busy to eat and drink enough. or not a fan of cup drinking and somewhat dehydrated. night is when they automatically make up for what they missed that day.

it's also important to maintaining infertility for that healthy optimum 3-5 yr spacing.

even with fertility, night nursing helps regulate hormone and endocrine system of the mother, giving present and future health.

it increases the disease preventing antibodies that the increasingly social child is getting from the mother.

they grow up and seperate themselves so soon. rrr


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## True Blue (May 9, 2003)

RRR, that may be true but eventually mommy has to get some sleep too, and nursing every hour or two just gets unacceptable at some point. I'd like to not be cranky. We're not talking about nightweaning infants here.

So after 3 nights of sleeping with DH, things seem to be perking up. He woke up a lot the first night, less the second (though once DH slept through it and DS left the bedroom -- luckily I couldn't sleep a lick and heard him and rescued him lol), and last night I think he only woke up at 4!!! At 6am DH got up and DS did so I nursed him and he is back to sleep again. And I pulled him off before he fell asleep and he just grunted and rolled over! I think this is helping even though it is torture for me not to sleep with my baby. I think tonight will be the last night, hopefully this not waking will have started to become a habit so when I come back he won't even be waking as much to nurse.

Waterbabee, sounds like things are going good for you! I had one of those all night nursers too. I did some gradual nightweaning that helped that some, now I'm trying to eliminate them all til morning. It will be so nice to sleep!!!

Julie's Mom -- Good luck!


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## rrr (Aug 8, 2003)

still sleeping with 7and 3 year old over here. 3 year old nurses more or less depending on the day he had, his health, etc. it just gives him a chance to self regulate according to his innate understanding of what he needs, rather than according to how available i was or he was to nurse during the day.

sometimes i get enough sleep, sometimes not--but usually because i stay up too late.

why do i not limit my son's access to me? because it's my conviction and because even when it's tough on the body, it's healing to my soul.

the physical benefits of night nursing to the mother are also not insignificant. rrr


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## rosebuds (May 23, 2003)

Hey Ladies! So how is it going for everyone?

I have to say that I thought things would be pretty much smoothed out for me here by now but Ashlin's night waking and resisting the no-nursing-at-night thing is still requiring quite a bit of effort.

I would say that for apprx. the past week Ashlin has been waking more and not easy to comfort back to sleep. She has woken some nights as many as she used to and often is up for an hour asking for her 'boobies'. I thought at first that she was just testing the waters to see if I really was going to see this thing through but it has been a week and lastnight was bad enough that I did nurse her.

Do you think that she really does need these night sessions or that she is still just adjusting to our new arrangement?

It just seemed to me that after the success of the first week or so that she was physically capable as well as willing to go without during the night.

I am confused.







:

Has anyone else experienced any setbacks?

Her naps have also become quite a bit shorter, not sure if it is related.

Do you think I should start nursing her at one point in the night to help see her through till morning? I am nervous that this will send me down the wrong path and I will end up nursing all night again. What are your opinions oin this? Keep in mind she is now 19months old, she shouldn't need to eat through the night should she ( meaning for nutrition purposes)? I am more than willing to comfort her in other ways but if she continues to night wake why wouldnt I just nurse her??? Hmmmmmmmmm, need your thoughts!

Also I am leaving for the in-laws tomorrow morning for a 4 day visit where we will be co-sleeping again, wonder how that will work out? The past few nights I have spent a good majority of the night sleeping with her again to see if it helps but it didnt seem to change anything.

Well, hope to hear from you all!


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## twilight girl (Mar 7, 2002)

Hello, ladies,

It was with much interest that I read all of the posts on this thread. I would like to try not full on night weaning, but rather reduce the wakings/nursings back to sleep to maybe just once.

My dd is 14.5 months. We co-sleep, and dh usually sleeps in another room. This is probably better because he snores and is generally a noisy sleeper.

Anyway, lately (past month or two) it seems that when Claire wakes up at night it's not so much to nurse for hunger, but just to fall back to sleep. Then I have a hard time detaching her without waking her up.

I'd like it if she would go down at her normal time (around 9ish), and stay out until about 2 a.m., nurse back down, and stay down again until about 7 or 8.

Instead, she goes down at 9ish, wakes up once an hour or so until I come to bed. Then, after that, I'm not sure how often she wakes or what time because w/out my contacts in I can't see the clock









I read Dr. Gordon's article and I liked it. We tried it, and it wasn't too bad the first night. The second night was terrible and I caved (mostly because ever-so-helpful dh, who moved back into the family bed for the nightweaning experiment, woke up when she was crying and was freaking out, "what's the matter with her? Does she have gas? should I get her some gas drops? does she need some Tylenol? what's the matter?" --Um, duh, we're trying to night wean and she's ticked off about it!)

Do you really think a 14.5 month old can grasp the concept of the "leche mamas" going night-night? How can I encourage her to sleep longer intervals and get in one good big nursing in the middle of the night instead of snacking all night long?

Any advice would be MUCH appreciated!!! My nips are wearing out!

Thanks,
Judi


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## rrr (Aug 8, 2003)

it seems that my ideas and experience are unpopular in this nightweaning thread.

if one is determined to nightwean, there is certainly no end of support in our society for that. tricks and tips abound.

much smaller and thinner is the voice that supports night nursing of any baby, but especially a big baby or toddler. my son is 3, i don't know how to classify him.

it is my experience that the busy, social toddller is able to self-regulate and provide for his current, specific need by having access to mother and breast during the night.

what needs? 1. milk for calories and nutrition. 2. antibodies against virus, infection, 3. liquid to avoid constipation and support bodily processes. 4. physical contact for the needs of the soul. 5. ???

what do i mean by "night"? from the nurse to sleep time to the nurse to wake up time. which, for us, isbetween 10pm and 9+am. he seems to nurs less with each month or so, but usually nurses a coupl times between the first and last.

he's not attached all night. i get up and do stuff until12 or 1 at night. i usually fall back to sleep right after he latches on. if not, i get up and take magnesium with glass water, then i go right back to sleep.

in fact, supplemental magnesium is a great idea for anyone feeling antsy about nursing. most of are deficient and that would be a good sign. especially if you have headache, constipation, skeletal-muscular problems>experiment with extra magnesium.

one of the points that miriam labbok(infant & young child feeding and care senior advisor-unicef) made at the recent La Leche international conference was that 3 to 5 year spacing between children provides optimum health for both mother and child.

it allows the mother to come full circle and anchors the health of the child. extended breastfeeding plays an important role in this. night nursing supports the breastfeeding relationship.

this is true for everyone but especially for those who work. who wants to pump for 2 or 3 years?

i highly recommend the book MOTHERING YOUR NURSING TODDLER, which you can check out for free at a La Leche meeting. there might even be a toddler LLL group discussing this stuff constantly. look up La Leche in the phone book for mtg. schedule. rrr


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## Juelie's Mom (Nov 19, 2002)

Hi all!
My update... I am hesitant to say... is that I have decided not to nightwean. I feel almost ashamed to admit it, I had been anxious to night wean for about 6 months now and just had no clue how! Well, after a bit of researching and a little bit of consulting my instincs I have decided against it. I would like to cut back 1 or 2 nursing per night if possible, mostly because I suspect that some of her wakings which require nursing are more out of habit than need. However, one can never tell for sure! So, reminding myself that this won't go on forever, onward I trudge in my quest to be the best mother I can be, and to continue with the standards I had set even before Juels was born. Don't get me wrong now-- I'd LOVE even 3 hours of consecutive sleep!!!! BUT, its not about me. I feel that my daughter knows her needs (instinctively), and I am willing to be inconvenienced by that. I am trying to bump her bed time up to some time before 11pm. I have noticed that on my days off I don't fall asleep during the day because I get 4+ hours more sleep than when I have to get up at 6am. So if I can get us to sleep before 10pm (8 or 9 would be best) things will GREATLY improve. Now we are working on establishing a bedtime routine, and accually sticking to it!

Good luck to all of you!!!! Every parent has to make the best choices they can with the situations that are presented to them. We all have indiviual needs and circumstances. So, there is no right or worng answer. But as for us, we're gonna keep on truckin' and see whats around the bend.

~hugs to all~
Holly


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## rrr (Aug 8, 2003)

3 hrs of consecutive sleep will be yours before you know it!

in fact, lets hear from moms who thought they wd. never get any sleep and then bit by bit night nursing became less frequent?

how old were your kids when they only woke up twice, for example?

how long did they nurse when they did wake up?

does anyone know how to create a poll?

the results may prove encouraging to those who fear their patience will backfire.

when did your child become a heavier sleeper?

i think this is a bigger problem for the mother of one child. those of us with 2 have already seen the future. i never wd. have believed her independence wd. come so quickly. rrr


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## Need2Dream (Aug 15, 2003)

Hi All -
I'm here because like most of you, I'm committed to being the best mom I can be and right now I feel like my good mom days are being overrun by sleepy mom days. I posted on babycenter.com and Rosebuds invited me to join you here (Hi K - It's me A). DD is 14 months old and is a wonderful, high energy, curious little girl.....who has never been a good sleeper. We've been co-sleeping on/off since she was 2 months old and currently we sleep on a mattress of the floor of her room. DH's snoring and the early morning light in our bedroom was keeping DD from sleeping well. It seems she needs the "perfect conditions" (light, noise, routine, etc) to sleep well. The most sleep I've had since DD was born is 4 hours at a time. Currently, she wakes at least 8x a night (8 pm- 7:30 am) - more towards the early morning and I just feel like I am at the end of my rope. I'm cranky and snapping at DH, not functioning well at my part-time job, house in complete chaos, and starting to resent all the nighttime nursing. I know DD can do it. We've had a few rare nights of very good sleeping where she wakes up happy and well rested. It just seems the more I nurse, the more she wakes up, and we spiral downward. My family is ready for a change.....And you all give me hope and inspiration - that I can do this (nightweaning) gently and full of love. I know it will be difficult, but I need to try.

So here it goes. Rosebuds, I am committed to being consistent and hope you all can help keep me accountable. Tonignt was Day 1 - 8:00 pm, We nursed before bed and then she rolled over and hummed herself too sleep (while pulling on my hair). Off to a good start. 9:20 pm, she's awake crying - I try and lay next to her but I'm too late, she's upset and wants to nurse. Ugh, I hum, rub her belly. She's not buying it and is doing her angry cry and pushing me away. I reluctantly take her into the hallway where there is more light and she calms down. She says night night to daddy again. We go back into her room and lay on the mattress. She reluctantly falls asleep 30 minutes later. I keep laying there and every now and then she whimpers or crys out (in her sleep) --- ooops she's up. I'm back, she's woke up again at 10:30 - again I had to bring her into the hallway, where she says night night to daddy through her tears. 11:15 pm and she's back asleep. No nursing yet...but it appears that we are in for a long night. Wish me luck....

Sweet dreams to you all








-A


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## rrr (Aug 8, 2003)

more evening and early night nursing might reduce the early morning nursing. you can only try.

also---here's a big one---during the day when she's eating food, try to always give her food on a full tummy of milk.

of course she's an appropriate age for food, but there is no food as complex as your milk. she may know what she's missing.

it's tough to sit down to nurseduring dinner prep time--but may pay off in sleep. maybe someone else can share dinner prep.

i tried not to sit my 12 to24 month old down to the table if he hadn't nursed in the last hour.

she may not have enough liquid in her body to digest that day's food. 4 am may seem like a perfectly reasonable time to replace it.

just guessing, based on my experience.

an LLL mtg. is great because it's the 7th or the 10th idea that helps. rrr


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## Need2Dream (Aug 15, 2003)

Thanks for the tips rrr, it's worth a try. I am willing to nurse1-2x a night - just not the current 8x, a 4 am waking would be fine with me. Our current situation is not working....I need to find a place that is more manageable....or else Iam going to go insane.

-A


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## rrr (Aug 8, 2003)

quick--before you go insane, let's get some more help.

let's create a poll that solicits ideas on how to REDUCE night nursing.

you might actually come up with better questons after you go insane. creative geniouses are usually a little crazy. in fact, they are often insomniacs.

i've never created a poll. let's brainstorm some ideas and post it tomorrow.

for example:

which describes your night nursing experience:

1. my child reduced to two night nursings before i went insane.

2. i went insane before my child reduced to 2 night nursings.

please elaborate.

how's that?

you might be able to keep a sense of humor by saying "this is so temporary! by next month things will have changed quite a bit."

are you able to get comfortable enough that you can almost stay asleep when letting her start nursing?

do you suspect any allergy that cd. be upsetting her system? my son has excema and gets really itchy with wrong foods. acidopholus helps. rrr


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## rosebuds (May 23, 2003)

rrr I have to say that it is nice to have your outlook included in this thread, helps to balance us out! Thanks for joining in.







It is wonderful that you have such strong convictions, your family will be rewarded from it and I can only hope that the decisions I make for my family will also be rewarded.

I agree with much that you have said and I would like to take the time to adress some of the things you have said...

Ashlin at 19 months nurses many times during the day, she comes in for a drink often on an hourly basis. She is receiving plenty of the benefits of breastfeeding, she is certainly a busy toddler but it has not affected the amt. of breastmilk she is consuming.

I am a SAHM so my time is spent with my children 24/7. Ashlin is not making up for time lost during the day.

I nurse Ashlin for about 1/2 hour (she makes the call there, how long she nurses for) before she goes to bed for the night.

I have a 3 y/o who still wakes in the night, not nursing tho, but I do know that eventually the night wakings will slow down but also in my experience that did not happen until she weaned herself.

I did my best to keep a sense of humour and stay realistic that our situation was temporary but Ashlins night wakings were getting worse rather than better. It took me 6 months of thinking and researching before I made the moves I did.

I beleive in the wonderful experience of nurisng day and night when it is working for all parties. With the exception of course of young babies whom of course should be nursed throughout the night as they please. Again, my dd is 19 months and I dont think that waking every hour or two is necessary. I was beginning to resent Ashlins frequent wakings and really wanted to do something about it. I am taking those steps and I really don't want any negativity put upon myself for making this decision. Dont you think that if I am feeling resentful, regretful, angry my dd will pick up on it and will effect any of the positives she may be receiving in our nighttime nursing relationship?

I agree that if one is determined to nightwean, there is certainly no end of support in our society for that and I think that my decision to come to MDC for advice shows that I am looking for the best possible support in my journey...I am not looking to Ezzo.

I wanted to just answer those points...not to be defensive but so that you know where I am coming from.









With all that said, I have also decided that for the time being I have decided to also only attempt a reduction in night feedings, hopefully just one nursing session around 3:30 am. Ashlin has been having a difficult time the past week (see above post). I will try adding one back and see how she fares.

Need2Dream...









I hope you are able to get much support advice and encouragement from our discussions here.

I am going out of town now for a few days so wont be able to post much but will be checking in when I can.

Best Wishes!


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## Need2Dream (Aug 15, 2003)

Thanks rrr and rosebuds. DD has been waking frequently (6-8x+)for at least the past two months. I have been gently trying all sorts of things to get her to cut down - including just waiting it out. And things aren't getting better. Sometimes she'll wake up multiple times in an hour. I have tried watching her/my food intake and potential allergies. Looking for signs of teething, colds, etc. Kept track of changes in routine etc. Kept sleep logs. She nurses so frequently and latches so strongly that it's painful after a while (her teeth rub).

I feel I need to at least try nightweaning. DD and I are very connected and if she really isn't ready - I think I'll be able to sense that. But we both need a nudge in the right direction. I give her lots of love and attention and fun when we are together during the day and a lot of pre-bedtime cuddles. I am committed to trying this for at least one week and then I will reassess the situation.

Our goal: Reduce night nursings (1-2x) and help DD get back to sleep on her own gently and lovingly. I decided that 4 am will be my "reset the nursing clock" time. I will communicate with DD and listen to her cues.

All that said -
Last night was hard but not impossible. DD only woke 4x! (9:30, 10:30, 1:00, 3:45). She was up at her usual 7:15 - all smiles. The first few times she was very angry and cried big tears. We had to leave her room to calm down. But once she calmed down and said night night to daddy and the dog - she was back to sleep pretty quickly. So far, so good. We will see how she is today.

I'll keep you posted. Thanks for the support.
-A


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## twilight girl (Mar 7, 2002)

Wow, rosebuds, you are extremely diplomatic.

I was going to post a reply to rrr, but it probably would not have been so eloquently and diplomatically phrased as yours.

But, here goes anyway!

rrr: I'm surprise at how militantly you come across here. I've found that the women here tend more toward "alternative" parenting--which I prefer to call traditional parenting, because what we do is what was the norm for millenia--just not for the past 50 years.

Anyway, you are in the company of extended breastfeeders, many of whom probably cloth diaper and attachment parent. I don't understand why you push so hard against these moms who are looking to achieve a little sanity in their nighttime homes. Nobody is talking about weaning before they or baby is ready.

It's just nightweaning (or, in some cases, reduced night feedings).

My daughter requires nursing to get back to sleep, even if she is not nursing for hunger. It's gets a little tiresome for both of us, as neither of us is getting good, quality sleep. So, in seeking to eliminate this, I don't see how I am robbing my dd of any benefits of extended breastfeeding.

I co-sleep so that she knows I am always right there, and doesn't need to feel any anxiety when she does wake at night. And I have no problem nursing her for 1 or 2 feedings at night.

What I'm struggling with is having to nurse her back down 5-7 times a night at 14.5 months. IN short, I don't get your point.

I don't plan on weaning my daughter for a long time to come. But, I think she's old enough now to get through a good 5 hours without needing to nurse. I'm home with her all day, so she gets the benefit of nursing all day whenever she wants. Again, I don't get your point.

Plus, despite frequent night nursing, my AF returned Tuesday. So, nightweaning her is not going to make any difference there.

I would understand your zeal if you were among formula feeding, crib sleeping, detachment parenting, cry-it-out parents. But, you're not.

I don't think you need to "educate" anyone here on the benefits of extended breastfeeding because we all seem to be doing that already.

Anyway, to the others who are navigating nightweaning or reduction in night nursing:

How's it going? Claire did pretty well last night. I slept with my glasses nearby so I could look at the clock. She went down a little before 8 p.m. Woke to nurse a little before 9 p.m. The dh and I played a long game of Scrabble and I went to bed a little before 11p.m. (that was the longest stretch she's slept in a long time!). I know she got up and nursed around 3:30. And again sometime around dawn (5:30-6 or so).

So, not a bad night last night. The only thing I did differently was to put a CD player in the room with her, playing a lullaby CD on very low volume. I think it helped a lot!

Peace,
Judi


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## Juelie's Mom (Nov 19, 2002)

rrr,
I just wanted to pop in and send some kudos your way. You have played a big part in inspiring me not to nightwean. Now, don't get me wrong, I fully respect every womans decisions for the well-beings of their familys- whatever they may be. But I think that in my situation going to bed a little earlier and reducing a nursing session or two during the night will do the trick in allowing me to "keep my sanity". Falling asleep at work is my biggest issue.

I had never even thought about nursing before meals, in fact, I have been trying to do just the opposite. I don't nusre her before because I want her to fill up on "real" food. I can't believe I was being so absent minded! So we will try nursing before meals and see if that helps.

Anyway, I wanted to applaud you on your strong convictions. Even if I didn't agree with you (however, I do) I would still admire you for that. You also seem very well educated, wich is wonderful. The best thing we can do for our children is to educate ourselves and to make decisions based on our knowledge. Takes a lot of strength to see it through sometimes, and especially to stand up for oursleves for making those decisions. Keep it up *everyone*!!!!!

Holly


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Shh . . .nightweaning for better sleep didn't work for us!









Let me preface this by saying that I CANNOT SLEEP WHILE DD IS NURSING. If I could, I wouldn't have ever considered nightweaning. If you CAN sleep while nursing, please do not advise me against nightweaning, because honestly, you don't understand.

DD is 18 months old. She nurses very frequently throughout the day, at LEAST every hour on most days. As far as solids go, she's like most toddlers, and her eating varies.

At about 16 months, DH and I decided that he'd be the sole nighttime parent for awhile. He rocks DD to sleep, and she sleeps in a crib (we co-slept before this, but sleeping near me always seems to wake her up). When she wakes up, DH sleeps with her (without me). For awhile, things were going very well. No crying during the nightweaning, and she was sleeping for longer stretches. Sometimes for even 7 hours straight!

Now we're back to frequent wakings . . .sometimes every 15 minutes







and sometimes a nice 3 hour stretch. The responsibility is on DH now, but this stresses us both out. We just don't know what else to do.









And let's not even talk about naps. AGH!


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## Island Mommy (Mar 26, 2003)

Hi,
My dd is only 7 months old, so I'm not nightweaning yet, but I've been reading this thread to see how things are going for other Moms.
I just wanted to say that I appreciate what rrr is saying, and think that if mom and babe can get enough rest, then extended nightnursing is great.
However, when either mom or babe are being adversely affected, then I fully support the choice to nightwean. In fact, I've been dreaming about the day it will happen here and I can get some








The vast majority of babes in N.A. are not nursing/drinking at night past the age of 6 months...and they seem to be just fine. (many here may not agree with that statement...about them being just fine, but I think they are)


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## Juelie's Mom (Nov 19, 2002)

Elena (and all),

Do any of you have your children adjusted (by a chairopractor) routinly? Thinking of it I have seen very different behaviors out of Juels when she is adjusted... which hasn't been for quite sometime becuase we have no insurence and can't afford it







.

Also, might I suggest trying cranial sacral therapy? We had this done on Juels when she was first born (long story, but she couldn't even open her mouth wide enough to nurse before the treatment). I am taking her back in a couple of weeks to have some more work done, as I should have 15 months ago but didn't have the money.

Anyway, for those who didn't have their babies adjusted within the first 24 hours following birth, the little ones are more likely than not still suffering from birth trauma in their little necks... possibly to the point where they may have trouble sleeping. My neck and back are almost constantly out and I have a terrible time sleeping (even when Juels doesn't). Just an idea. We should all be adjusted monthly anyway, so it surly wouln't hurt to give it a shot!

Holly


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:

but she couldn't even open her mouth wide enough to nurse before the treatment).
This is an interesting thought . . .Fiona would also not open her wide enough for a good latch for a long time . . .I had to wait until she was actually crying to pop her on.







Nursing was hard those first few months!

Personally, though, I'm scared of chiropractors. If I saw evidence that once you go to one for awhile, you're eventually "cured", I might have more confidence, but it seems like people depend on them forever. Dunno!


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## Juelie's Mom (Nov 19, 2002)

Elena,

I, too, was scared of chairopractors for a long time... until I learned more about what they do and how our bodies work. There really is no point of being "cured". We put a lot of stress on our bodies and all of us have areas of our spine that slip out of place every so often. When you first begin seeing a chairo they often want you to come in once a week (or more) for a few weeks. This is because your muscles have adapted to the position of your spine (in its displaced position) and it takes some re-training for them to learn to hold your spine correctly again. They will just push it right back out if you have only one adjustment! The reason poeple keep going back (often for a lifetime) is for maintenence purposes. When a vertabra (spelling?) is out of place a nerve is being pinched. The nerves in our spines send ALL of the messages from our brain which tell our bodies how to preform. Each area of the spine corresponds, or brings messages, to a different part of our body. So basically, when we are misaligned any and every part of our bodies will suffer. This is why it is important to go once a month for maintinence. Often we are misaligned and we don't even know it!

When Juels was born her left hand was pressing on her right cheek (she has been sucking her fist inutero). All of that pressure really put her face off balance. You could see it just by looking at her straight on! The day after she was born we has a chairo come over to our house and adjust her, and the day after that we took her to the cranial sacral therapist (which I believe made an even bigger difference). After the chairo she could turn her head in both directions and she was opening her mouth all the way to yawn! VAST IMPROVEMENT! However, it took my poor nipples 3 more weeks to heal from those first 3 days! It was pretty bad. I couldn't even talk when I nursed her, I'd just sit there deep breathing with tears streaming down my face! In our case if we hadn't gotten her adjusted I'd be one of those women saying "I couldn't nurse, it was too painful". Luckily, my lactation consultant was amazing and detected the problem. Well, theres my testimony anyway!

I have also had quite a bit of experience with chairos myself because I injured my back when I was 17. I have gone through periods in my life when I couldn't even walk due to the pain in my back. So, believe you me, chairos are a godsend!!!! I have even considered my own career as one!

Perhaps it would be helpful for you to set up a consultation with one (or a few), just to discuss things and then decide. You can always decide against it, but its never a bad thing to educate onesself!!!

~hugs to you~and all of you!~
Holly


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## Need2Dream (Aug 15, 2003)

For those of you who are interested, I just wanted to let you know how the nightweaning/reduced feedings is going for us. I'm still committed to sticking to it out for at least another 3-4 days. Overall, the wakings having reduced







, which I am very happy about. It seems that on the nights that she nurses right before sleep and then rolls over on her own to "humm" herself to sleep - the nightwakings are fewer and it's easier to get her settled. But sometimes, it seems I wait a little tooo long (literally minutes difference) before getting her to bed and she falls asleep at the breast - which I don't mind, it just seems like when she wakes up and it's not in her mouth she get's a lot more upset. She's doing very well and is her chipper independent self during the day. So far I feel like I am doing the right thing and definitely got WAY MORE SLEEP these last few nights (before these last few nights, a 3-4 hour stretch of sleep would seem like a miracle).

Day 2:
(Only one 30 minute nap today - aargh, tired baby)
Falls asleep at 8 pm while nursing and is up again at 8:30. Takes 30 minutes to settle her but she sleeps until 1 am!!! But in my tired state, I forgot that I was nightweaning and let her nurse I think!?! Poor DD, she was probably confused. She woke 2 more times before waking for good at 7:15. Again, 4 wakings - wonderful for us.

Day 3:
Fell asleep on her own tonight after nursing. Again only 4 wakings - and she settled fairly quickly. I nursed at 3 am (2nd waking).

Day 4 (Tonight):
A 6:30 wake up!!!! (she usually sleeps until at least 7 am). One 1.5 hour nap - amazing for us (even though I nurse her down and nap with her). Down at 8 pm fell asleep nursing. 8:30 - first wakeup but settles fairly quickly.....

Thanks for your words of wisdom and support....

-A


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## rrr (Aug 8, 2003)

wow- quite a bit has accumulated here while i was out of town.

it is certainly a given, in my mind, that moms and babies are individuals. we gather information, we try, we keep what works for us.

info that i found helpful with my nurslings was missing from the discussion. i've been offering it.

sometimes finding what works is like finding a needle in a haystack. i wouldn't want to keep someone else from information just because it was wrong for me.

what is an open discussion?

when i read the different views and experiences, i am broadened. whether i accept or reject, i must first search my own mind. this strengthens my convicton, and i may or may not try out your suggestion.

if your ideas are wrong for me, should i feel offended because you expressed them?

several of the moms here have offered woderful empethetic support. i offered additional information based on my own experiece with 2 nursling individuals.

let's value an open exchange as we show support.

lastly, there are a lot of weaning suggestions in the back of MOTHERING YOUR NURSING TODDLER. do any of you have it? you can check it out free at a LLL meeting. good luck! rrr


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## Juelie's Mom (Nov 19, 2002)

So well said rrr!!!!!!!!! Thanks for your imput and diplomatic approach!

Holly


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## gratefulmom (Jul 5, 2002)

HI there! New to thread but wanted to say I have enjoyed reading all of your thoughts. My Ds is about 14.5 months now. I am 13 weeks preg with #2. About a month and a half ago I night weaned Cassidy. He is very comfortable with his Dad so Dad went in to comfort him at night and CAssidy fell right back to sleep if dh put hin on his chest. After one week of that I began sleeping with ds again and if he woke up I would touch him and he fell right back to sleep.
At times I miss those night nursing sessions, he was an all night nurser. But i feel sooo much better about myself, my life and everything with more sleep. I am much ore patient with him and I think it was a good choice for us right now.
On the down side, Ds has begun weaning himself at such an early age. It started about two weeks after he was sleeping thru the night. He barely nurses at all now. I nurse him in the am whenever he gets up, around 5-6 and maybe once more during the day. I offer it to him constanly but he refuses to nurse. I'm not sure pregnancy has to do with this I think he started weaning before my supply was effected.
So it makes me very sad not to be able to give him my milk and nurse him when he is upset, I hope he will go back to nursing. But during the night I think about how frustrated nad down I was when nursing the entire night and not sleeping.
good luck everyone!
ANd rrr I like having your thoughts, I do think some Mamas can nurse all night and still get some sleep and be happy and then there are those of us that it just doesnt work for. I believe ds was ready. No CIO or any crying for that matter occured.

Lori, gratefulmama to Cassidy 6-1-02 and cub#2 due 2-03


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## rrr (Aug 8, 2003)

just to clarify, nursing all night long, or every hour, or 6 times a night is terribly exhausting for anyone.

soliciting ideas from all the experienced moms on ways to reduce night nursing, may provide some clues for those who want to investigate the causes of the frequent night nursing, rather than seeing it as a behavior problem.

for some, this will be a more satisfying process.

my sympathies to the exhausted.

try a magnesium tablet with a calciaum and full glass of water at bedtime...and then just plain magnesium and full glass water in the middle of the night when you get up to pee.

this might help you go back to sleep quicker and help both baby and mama sleep heavier.

cheap storebrand magnesium: 2.49 for 100 tablets. soft so you can break in half if you need to. relives headache, cramps, muscle tension. many people need a higher ratio of magnesium to calcium than the standard 1:2.

couldn't hurt to try. rrr


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## Juelie's Mom (Nov 19, 2002)

rrr,
Yesterday I tried nursing Juels within an hour of meals. I am happy to report that she went to bed at midnight and got up at 10:30am. DUring that time she woke up to nurse at 4:30 and 7:30am, and of course nursed when she woke for the day. I haven't had this much sleep in soooo long. Lets just hope its wasn't some crazy coincidence. Thanks for the tip!

Holly


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## Island Mommy (Mar 26, 2003)

rrr,
Could you give us your experience on how often your babes nursed and when they started to cut back? I really want to continue night nursing (and frankly can't see any other option as dd screams blue murder if I don't nurse) but I'd like to see a glimmer of hope at the end of the tunnel. Last night I was so frustrated I had to take dd up to dh (who sleeps in a separate room because dd and I are up so much). She became so awake she stayed up for close to 2 hours before she fell asleep again.

Also, dd is napping really well during the day...maybe too well? Should I be waking her after a set period of time? Perhaps she's getting too much sleep during the day? I'd always read that well-rested babies sleep better.


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## rrr (Aug 8, 2003)

boy! wow! a reasonable night's sleep for juelie's mom!

nursing a child younger than 24 months before offering food is sound practice for a number of reasons (see previous posts), but who knows about last night?

it might have just been her night to sleeeeep!

i remember being so worried about my newborns when they suddenly slept twice as long as the night before. What's wrong? should i wake her up to nurse?

it's especially hard with a first baby to anticipate these changes.

let's make up a scenario.

what if juelie sleeps as well as she did last night ONE night a week for the next four weeks?

then...what if she starts to sleep that well TWO nights a week for six weeks after that?

and so on.

i just made that up. it's not a prediction. but it would be a reasonable, conservative rate of change.

would you see the glass half full? 6 exhausting nights to one good one?

or...would you be encouraged by the improvement?

it's so hard to see the continuum(spelling?) when you're tired and disappointed that you don't get more sleep with each night.

maybe in the meantime, your spouse would get in the habit of making dinner!

let's make up a scenario:

your spouse makes dinner ONE night a week for four weeks.

then he makes dinner TWO nights a week for the following four weeks.

and so on. just kidding. rrr


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## Juelie's Mom (Nov 19, 2002)

lol, one can only dream, rrr (about dh cooking)!

Well last night Juels woke up to nurse a few times more than the night before... but still not as much as usual so I'm pretty excited. The big problem the last few days has trying to get her to bed before midnight. We're trying to extablish a bedtime routine but its just been crazy. I'm a nanny and Juels comes to work with me 4 days a week which throws us both totally off track. Still trying to get used to this whole working thing after being a sahm for over a year! But, we're continuing nursing before meals because it really has seemed to help. I don't expect that it will always be easy sailing, but if I can get an extra hour (even) of sleep once a week I'm happy!









Holly


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## rosebuds (May 23, 2003)

Ok, so I am back from my so-so trip to the in-laws, they can be wonderfully accepting of my 'ways' but I wonder what they say once we are gone. They let us have their master bedroom so we can co-sleep and they don't seem to bat an eye when I am nursing my 19 month old for like the 50th time that day.









I see there has been much discussed on this thread but hey where did my original peeps go???

Squeakermansmom, Waterbabee, Need2Dream??? How are you all doing? Have you settled into a comfortable routine?

Ashlin is all over the place still with her night waking. She sleeps when I dont think she will and when I think she will sleep well she doesnt. For example, we drove for 4 hours last Friday, spent the night in an unfamiliar bed, a routine was non existent and she had the biggest sleep of her life, 9:00pm to 6:30am!!!

I have decided to keep nursing her down at bedtime, I dont think it effects her nighttime wakings and I just enjoy that time of day where she can nurse quietly, no distractions and have her drift off in my arms.









I had planned on doing one other nurse in the middle of the night for now and I am going to try to keep that up. (I have been nursing her throughout the night again while I was away. I am so bad with consistency!) It does seem that she has a constant waking period at about 3:30 so I will nurse her then and at 6 am but not any other time. The problem with that tho is what do you do when she wakes at 2:55am, should I wait till 3:30am??? KWIM it becomes full of grey areas. Well, I will look at it closely tonight and see how it goes.

Nighty night!


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## rosebuds (May 23, 2003)

Lastnight...

Asleep at 9:00 pm

Awake at 10:00pm, hushed and patted to sleep

Awake at 2:30, nursed to sleep

Awake at 4:30, nursed to sleep

Awake at 5:30. nursed to sleep

Awake at 6:30, nursed to sleep

Awake at 7:30 for the day.

Now does that sound like I am following my desired night weaning plan....Ummmm a big fat NO!

Have I made any progress....Ummm maybe a little but not consistently!

She has woken once already tonight and I was able to just lie down with her and pat her back to sleep, hope I can stay on course for the night....I have to get back on track.

Can someone give me advice on the 3:30 am feeding that I thought I would add back in. It seems that once I decide to do one feeding I end up doing them all and her night wakings increase. Please advise! rrr you are welcome to jump in here too!

Sleepy dust to all!


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## rrr (Aug 8, 2003)

i have a general theory that the more breastmilk your child has in the day, the less she will try to make up at night.

this is general. babies are individuals.

just for the sake of testing this theory, how does your nursing schedule differ from this hypothetical one:

1. solid nursing upon waking.

2.nursing BEFORE offering solids or other liquids throughout the day.

3.nursing at naptime

4. nursing before family dinner (offer food within 1 hour of nursing)

5. nursing at bedtime. (9?)

6. nurse again 3 or 4 hours later. (12 or 1 am)

7. nurse again 4 to 6 hours later.

8. solid nursing as a part of waking up.

BECAUSE they don't always nurse when you think they should, it could be that only 4 of those nursing sessions would be substantial. some might be snacky. or just a little liquid to get that poop going.

my 3 yr old son nurses at bedtime, then 2 more times before waking, then nurses as part of waking up. if he was too busy during the day to drink or nurse much, he makes up for it at night. he nurses more when he's getting sick.
if he poops late in the day, he sleeps better than if he's needing to build up enough liquid to process all his food and poop in the morning.

my daughter was never this sensitive. she's always slept heavier. especially since age 2 when they really start to deepen their sleep. (usually)

i know my son nurses less now than he did 6 months ago, but the change is so gradual.

but one of the main things to analyze is the ratio of breastmilk to food. some kids have way too much food and not enough breastmilk. you can try for a good balance by nursing before offering food until at least age 2.

i don't do this all day with my 3 yr old. but he hates drinking water from a cup and so if we're home he regulates himself by nursing 1 or 2 minutes here and there throughout the day. with maybe 3 longer sessions in 24 hours. but he's older.

if i eat breakfast really late or skip it, i end up snacking late at night. are the toddlers trying to make up liquid or nutrition that they didn't get, for whatever reason, during the day or earlier evening.

what i would like to know is how the orangutans sustain the nursing relationship for 5 years or more. what is there typical schedule? night nursing? emphasizing solids when?

if this is wrong for you, that's fine with me. rrr


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## rosebuds (May 23, 2003)

Your hypothetical nursing schedule sounds pretty darn close to Ashlin's nursing schedule as is now. With the exception of many mini snacks in between. I have been trying to encourage her to take more bm at each nursing session because so many times she will nurse for just a minute and be back again 30 minutes later.

Maybe what I will do is keep track of how often she is nursing during the day and how long she is staying there for and then chart it next to her night wakings. I think that will really help guide me along. Her night wakings have been so eratic that it could very well be related to too many snacks of bm and not enough meals. For example, in a day I feel like all I have done is nursed her but really she is just nursing often but not for very long. Maybe on the nights that she is sleeping better she rec'd more but just less often??? I will watch for that. Thanks









Lastnight was actually another good one.

Bedtime at 9pm, nursed to sleep.

Awake at 10:00pm, patted and hushed to sleep

Awake at 4:30 am, nursed to sleep

Awake at 7:00 am, nursed for 30min to waking for the day.

I could totally live with this pattern.


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## rrr (Aug 8, 2003)

if that becomes a pattern, it sounds really appropriate for any child 3 and under. rrr


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## squeakermansmom (Sep 17, 2002)

wow - i didn't know this thread was still active. i am happy to report that our nightweaning has continued to go quite well. in fact, i guess you could say we're nightweaned since its now been a month. ds sleeps approx. 5-6 hours without waking and usually nurses from about 5am until we wake up at 7 or so. even when he does wake up its relatively easy to get him back to bed with just snuggling. i love it!!!

when reading through the posts, i have to admit i was somewhat irritated by what rrr was saying. i completely understand that we are all in different situations and what might be right for my family might not be right for others. i am also fully aware of the benefits of EBF and cosleeping. HOWEVER, i knew that i was darn tired from nursing all night and it wasn't just one night it was many nights. i was chronically waking with neck and back pain. b/c ds would stay attached all night it was hard to even get up to use the bathroom. i was beginning to hate nighttime and resent nightnursing. now i can honestly say i love, love, love sleeping with him again. what i'm trying to say is.....although nightweaning may not be right for everyone, for those of us who are ready you should not be made to feel quilty or wrong for your decision. breasfeeding should be mutually agreed upon by both mom and child. when one side is beginning to have resentment, then its time to change the situation. yes, i know everyone is entitled to their opinion and i'm not trying to blast anyone here, i'm simply saying that if you've decided to nightwean then you need loving support and ideas not a list on the benefits of extended breastfeeding.


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## rrr (Aug 8, 2003)

i want to amend my message of earlier today when i said that the schedule that you were describing sounds appropriate for any child three and under.

it bothered me when i wrote it but was too rushed.

it's really not helpful to put appropriate ages for anything. children are just INDIVIDUAL.

who knows what my son will do at 4? my daughter slept heavily at 4. but he's done differently since the beginning.

i'm all for reducing night nursing! especially for those who are attached all night! i hope those who read my posts closely saw that.

what's important to me is the idea of doing some detective work to see if the daytime nursing/eating might lead the child to nurse more at night.

one mother noticed that her child was snack nursing a lot and maybe not getting that much milk.

another mother realized she was offering food on an empty stomach and trying to nurse a child with a tummy full of food.

they might be able to make changes that will reduce night nursings so that they get 4, 5 or 6 hours at a time, too.

i am asking a question that only each mother can observe and figure out. Is the child nursing more at night in order to resolve an imbalance of food to breastmilk?

i think this is a typical problem for toddlers, that is little understood.

what is the value of an open discussion? rrr


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## squeakermansmom (Sep 17, 2002)

rrr - maybe i just took your 1st couple of posts the wrong way - if so, then i'm sorry. i definitely think any helpful information that might reduce night weanings should be shared. that would be invaluable to those moms who are having a difficult time at night. i know i would have welcomed it when ds was less than a 1 year old and not yet ready to nightwean. at any rate, i'm still happy with my decision as i am definitely a more rested and happier mom now.


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## rrr (Aug 8, 2003)

thanks for the friendliness.

i think some would look at your sleeping/nursing schedule and say that it is more of a reduction in night nursing than nightweaning.

sometimes the terms are confusing. we don't all mean the same things by them.

the point is that you're both doing well.

your description of neck pain leads me to again suggest a calcium/magnesium supplement at bedtime with additional magnesium (seperately) when you get up at night. always with a lot of water.

muscle tension and pain can be a sign of low magnesium.

rrr


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