# I don't use carseats



## CinnamonDeMarco (Nov 4, 2005)

My babies are 1 and 2 years old. I live in a city in The Virgin Islands where this is kind of common. We have laws about carseats but the police don't enforce them because they know why people don't use them.

I take public transportation. You can't use carseats on public transportation.

I take a city bus occassionally, but usually I take a safari. A safari is like a jeep with 4 rows of seats. I _could_ carry 2 toddler car seats 4 blocks to the bus stop (I have to carry a toddler too, imagine how hard that would be). I would have to pay extra money to bring the car seats on a safari, since they take up 2 seats. My children couldn't use them because there are no seatbelts on safaris. It would be impossible to to hold the carseats and my two children on a safari. I could duct tape them to the safari. Taking car seats on safaris is impracticle.

After I take public transportation to the store I have too many bags to take a bus home. I take a taxi. If I had car seats, I could use them in the taxi. I don't have the car seats. I don't bring them on the safari.

I also take rides from friends. They have their own childrens' carseats in their cars. My 2 car seats don't fit.

I am taking a trip to the states by plane soon. My younger child will not be in a car seat because I can't afford to buy another plane ticket. Either that, or we all stay home.

I can't afford to have a taxi come to my house to install car seats and drive me places all the time. It would cost $20 to go and come from the park for playgroup. If I made a rule that my children must be in car seats they would not get past walking distance of my house very often. Maybe once a month they'd go out. I'm talking about 12 times a year.

If you live in a place where everyone has their own cars maybe you never considered how hard it is for people like me to live up to the rule that a child under 4 (or whatever age/pound limit your state has) Must always be in a car seat.

I hope I don't get a lot of flames


----------



## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

When you're in the States, there are churches and hospitals that supply cheap or free carseats. There are also consignment shops that sell used carseats cheaply.


----------



## CinnamonDeMarco (Nov 4, 2005)

Please read my post.


----------



## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Are you always staying at the same place? Can't you get some car seats for while you visit? There are also rental places that can rent you seats pretty cheap for while you are here.

I'm not sure what you are seeking in your post - advice or support for your decision?

I can't get behind not using car seats. It's simply not worth the risk to me, accidents happen all the time, I want my kids to be protected if we get into one. If we didn't have car seats to use we would just stay home. When we go on trips we rent car seats or borrow them.


----------



## Lisa Lubner (Feb 27, 2004)

i've checked my carseats on a plane before. i'm sure you could do that rather than buy another ticket. that doesn't address most of your post, but it surely would take care of the trip to america.


----------



## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CinnamonDeMarco*
Please read my post.

I did read your post. You said that you're visiting the States soon. I gave advice for that.


----------



## frowningfrog (Aug 25, 2005)

I dont understand what you are getting at here?


----------



## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I wonder if something like this might be helpful:
sitn'stroll
Expensive, I guess. But if you put a baby on your back, you could maybe load groceries in it? Just an idea.

Not sure what I would do in your shoes. How common are car accidents where you live? Here, most people do not take carseats on the public buses. Smaller vehicles scare me more though.


----------



## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)

My dad wants us to come and visit him this has come up as one of the logistical problems for us too. Does that mean I need to buy two carseats for a two to three week trip and then never use them again? Yeah, I hear what you are saying.


----------



## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frowningfrog*
I dont understand what you are getting at here?

Yeah, I'm thinking advice on how to help her change her culture's mindset and eventually system is a bit big for MDC, but maybe not...

I remember when my mom thought her cousin's new wife was silly to go to all the trouble to put her kids into a carseat (circa 1972) and she was seriously peeved when I began insisting on a seatbelt at age 16. People used to argue that seatbelts were dangerous, they could strangle you, that you might be trapped underwater and can't get out. It was so much nonsense, but the culture has changed.

When I was in highschool, seatbelt laws were passing and people were upset that their personal freedoms were being trampled.

I've traveled in places like India, for example, where it's difficult to imagine using carseats. It takes a cultural change such as wealthy people donating/putting a car seat into every taxi or somehthing like that before it can happen.


----------



## CinnamonDeMarco (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty*
Are you always staying at the same place? Can't you get some car seats for while you visit? There are also rental places that can rent you seats pretty cheap for while you are here.

I'm not sure what you are seeking in your post - advice or support for your decision?

I can't get behind not using car seats. It's simply not worth the risk to me, accidents happen all the time, I want my kids to be protected if we get into one. If we didn't have car seats to use we would just stay home. When we go on trips we rent car seats or borrow them.

I live in the Virgin Islands. When I am in the states, on vacation I can use car seats. That is only 2 weeks though. Normally, I don't use them.

The problem isn't that I don't have car seats. The problem is I can't use them very often in The Virgin Islands.

I posted this becasue I think some people think, "I would NEVER not use a car seat. All children must be in car seats and if Moms don't use them, they are negligent. PERIOD" and they haven't thought about it like how I am explaining it. I used to live in a yuppish suburb and I used to think the same way. I'm just trying to get people to see another point of view.

I know many people in my same situation and I've never heard of anyone who stays home all the time because they can't use car seats. If HelloKitty were in this situation, and chose to stay home for weeks-at-a-time, until her children were all 4 years old, I would respect that. I'm not going to do it though.


----------



## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PumpkinSeeds*
My dad wants us to come and visit him this has come up as one of the logistical problems for us too. Does that mean I need to buy two carseats for a two to three week trip and then never use them again? Yeah, I hear what you are saying.

No, you could rent them for that period of time.


----------



## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)

Thanks, I didn't know that.


----------



## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CinnamonDeMarco*
I posted this becasue I think some people think, "I would NEVER not use a car seat. All children must be in car seats and if Moms don't use them, they are negligent. PERIOD" and they haven't thought about it like how I am explaining it. I used to live in a yuppish suburb and I used to think the same way. I'm just trying to get people to see another point of view.

Oh, you think that we think that all the babies in Sudan, for example, should be in car seats or their parents are negligent? That doesn't make sense to me. I think that people are aware that things are done differently in different cultures, but that the States is rich enough to make sure that everyone has and uses carseats. No one is saying that someone in India should use a year's income to purchase a carseat, or did I miss that thread? I seriously do not mean to be snarky. I just feel that you're maybe underestimating people. Maybe I'm overestimating them.


----------



## CinnamonDeMarco (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RubyWild*
Oh, you think that we think that all the babies in Sudan, for example, should be in car seats or their parents are negligent? That doesn't make sense to me. I think that people are aware that things are done differently in different cultures, but that the States is rich enough to make sure that everyone has and uses carseats. No one is saying that someone in India should use a year's income to purchase a carseat, or did I miss that thread? I seriously do not mean to be snarky. I just feel that you're maybe underestimating people. Maybe I'm overestimating them.

Not everybody thinks "Babies must be in car seats PERIOD", but I'm sure some do. It is because they didn't consider other people's lifestyles (for lack of a better word) I said "I used to think that way." I don't think that is offensive.

ETA: On the thread about irresponsible parents someone posted about a Dad comming out of a taxi holding a baby in no car seat. That was how he was irresponsible. I thought, "That could have been me comming out of a taxi with no carseat." That is why I started this thread.


----------



## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CinnamonDeMarco*
Not everybody thinks "Babies must be in car seats PERIOD", but I'm sure some do. It is because they didn't consider other people's lifestyles (for lack of a better word) I said "I used to think that way." I don't think that is offensive.

I'm not offended. I just really don't understand your point. I do think that babies should be in carseats, but I realize that this isn't possible right now in all cultures. I guess I'm not your target audience.


----------



## Synchro246 (Aug 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RubyWild*
Oh, you think that we think that all the babies in Sudan, for example, should be in car seats or their parents are negligent? That doesn't make sense to me. I think that people are aware that things are done differently in different cultures, but that the States is rich enough to make sure that everyone has and uses carseats. No one is saying that someone in India should use a year's income to purchase a carseat, or did I miss that thread? I seriously do not mean to be snarky. I just feel that you're maybe underestimating people. Maybe I'm overestimating them.

I saw a thread that said something about a man getting out of a taxi without a carseat and with a babe in hand. I don't know if that's what sparked it for the OP to post, but I certainly hadn't thought of that sort of situation before. I think it's reasonable not to use a car seat in certain situations.

Having said that I also have used the intentional NON-use of carseats to the intentional use of formula. I meant that for people who have their own car and just don't think carseats are that important.


----------



## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CinnamonDeMarco*
.

ETA: On the thread about irresponsible parents someone posted about a Dad comming out of a taxi holding a baby in no car seat. That was how he was irresponsible. I thought, "That could have been me comming out of a taxi with no carseat." That is why I started this thread.

I guess I'm puzzled as to what the point of this post was. When I say, 'every baby/toddler/child' should be in a car seat, I am referring to those countries were it is possible. Here in the US, for example, there is NO EXCUSE for not having a car seat.

Even the man in the taxi had no excuse. Everybody I know who lives in a city keeps a car seat for taxi rides.

I wouldn't suggest taking a car seat on public transportation because it has no seatbelts. That would sort of defeat the purpose.

It's sort of like you are accusing us of some sort of discrimination or offensive behavior or thought when none has occurred. I'm confuzzled.


----------



## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Joannarachel*
It's sort of like you are accusing us of some sort of discrimination or offensive behavior or thought when none has occurred. I'm confuzzled.









I agree. I think it's the American tendency to say, "Everyone should ______" and mean all Americans, but that people in other cultures hear this to mean that we think everyone in the world should _____.

Anyway, I try to imagine what it would be like if I was still living abroad but had a child with me. I really don't think that I would assume that women on MDC were talking about me when they were making sweeping generalizations. But, hey, MDCers might start waking up and come in here and surprise me.


----------



## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CinnamonDeMarco*
I posted this becasue I think some people think, "I would NEVER not use a car seat. All children must be in car seats and if Moms don't use them, they are negligent. PERIOD" and they haven't thought about it like how I am explaining it. I used to live in a yuppish suburb and I used to think the same way. I'm just trying to get people to see another point of view.

That's all I wanted to know. I couldn't understand what you were getting at - I thought you were asking about advice for your trip to the states. And I was responding to my feelings, living here in the states. If I lived somewhere else where they were not as easy to use I might do things differently. I really don't know.


----------



## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

I never read the thread you were referring to so I'm sure that led to the confusion here about what the issue was.


----------



## Hippiemommie (Jul 3, 2005)

Not everyone has driving conditions as we do. There are a lot of places that don't use carseats but they don't have near the crashes or traffic we do. Besides that many places are more concerned with bigger problems on keeping a child safe (safe drinking water, health care, ect)other than a carseat. I think if you contacted the police dept of the city you are visiting they could have a carseat ready at the airport for you to use while you are visiting the states.


----------



## CinnamonDeMarco (Nov 4, 2005)

Even in the states it is hard for some people to use car seats. It's not just an issue for people who live abroad.

The man in who was called irresponsible in the other thread was probably living in the states. Maybe it is very hard for him to use a carseat, just like it is hard for me.

There are people who take public transportaion in the states. I used to live in Philadelphia, which has lots of taxis and the 3rd largest public transportation system in the US. Many people in Philly do not own a car. They use buses and subways with no car seats. There are no seat belts on Philly buses and trains. I was not aware that taxis had car seats available. I doubt they would have 2 toddler car seats available for me to use, if I lived in the states. Imagine if I went to a store on a bus in Philly and then wanted a ride home, or called a taxi to take me home. I'd have no car seats.

I am not looking for anyone to give me permission to not use car seats. I'm not complaining about how some people think car seats must always be used. I am trying to explain why it is hard for me (and others) to use car seats. Maybe some people had never thought about how people like me live.


----------



## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

I think it is incredibly risky to be in a car with a young child who is not in a car seat. Buses and other public transportation (without proper car seat hookups) are different. I took DS on a trip when he was very young and we brought a car seat in the taxi to the airport. Taxi drivers around MASS drive VERY agressively so not putting him in a car seat is too risky.

I agree that if someone has access to (or can afford to buy) a car seat then there is no reason that they should not use one. It is a safety tool. As a mother I feel it is my job to keep my son as safe as possible, not putting him in a car seat while he is in my car is not doing that job IMO.


----------



## Hippiemommie (Jul 3, 2005)

Do people use car seats on buses? I don't think I've ever seen a baby on a bus in a car seat or in a taxi unless they are going a distance. Of course I live in the rural south so we don't have a lot of mass transit here either.


----------



## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

Why do you keep bringing up public transportation? That has nothing to do with car seats. You can't use them on buses or trains because they don't have SEATBELTS.

And it doesn't matter whether it was *hard* for that man in the taxi (presumably in the US), to use a car seat. It's the law, and it's common sense. Everyone I know who lives in a city keeps a seat on hand if they must use a taxi. You can use an infant carrier for small babies, and there are small convertibles, harness straps, and collapsible convertibles for older babies and toddlers. Saying 'it's hard' for someone who lives in the states where it is the law and carseats are easily obtainable is a non-argument.


----------



## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Public transportation where there is no way to secure a car seat is different and I think most everyone understands that. I'm not sure why you have come to the conclusion that people don't.

If someone in the States in using a car to transport their children without car seats then they are IMO being negligent. Whether the car is their own, a friend's car or a rental.


----------



## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

I think that people in my area of the state who drive their own car and have small children as passengers should use carseats.

Our local health department rents carseats for 10 dollars and they'll install it for you.

So when i comment on people I see near me, I know what's available.


----------



## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I live in a big city, and people don't use car seats on buses, but they have to in a taxi.

My mom doesn't drive, but she had a car seat for my sister for when she took a taxi. It wasn't hard.


----------



## jannan (Oct 30, 2002)

in nicaragua people don't use car seats either, there are no free ones and cost about a one months salary. and everyone takes a bus some people have cars but they are the rich ones.
when dd went down we did n't use a car seat. she was 3.


----------



## veggiemama4 (Jun 28, 2005)

Hi,
I am just wondering the difference in instances of child deaths due to not being a car seat in the Virgin Islands? I don't know the stats for the US or for the Virgin Islands.

Here is my perspective as a mother of four, please don't take this the wrong way. I know that the culture in the Virgin Islands is different than here, but you said that it is the Law for children to be in carseats there as well. I am sure that in some countries it is not the law.

I find that your post is full of excuses for reasons that you are not using car seats: no money, no extra hands, too heavy to carry etc., While I find those to be common problems for ALL mothers regardless of where we are from (maybe not the $$ one, but the others, yes) basically you are feeling that it is worth the risk? What if something happens to your child that could have been prevented with a carseat, the rest of your life you will be thinking that you should have used one.
I used to hold my son on my lap and nurse him in the front seat when he was a newborn - that was 11 years ago and I was young, only 17. I didn't see the problem at that time. Good thing nothing happened to him because now I wonder, WAS I CRAZY?? I didn't want him to cry. That's why I did it. See, we all have our reasons or excuses for not doing things a certain way, but we have to think of our child first.
If it's not safe for them to ride in the car, well then we shouldn't be going anywhere. That is my opinion, but it is also the law. If you can't afford a carseat, find some one to help you, an agency a family member a friends, church, family center, tag sale, make a wanted sign and hang it on your front door. If you cannot carry everything try to find someone willing to go with you and help you, buy less and make more trips, use a sling for the todlder and drag the car seat with a rope. Anything is possible, believe me I have been there and I have done things like that.
Bottom line is that your child's safety should not be comprimised. So what if it makes your life harder, that's the way I feel. I have to buckle and unbuckle two carseats 100 times a day and believe me sometimes I just feel like throwing them out the window but I know that they are safer so I put up with it.
As far as public transportation like the bus, here you do not have to have your child in a carseat either, which has always been odd too me. And if you are in a Safari and it does not have any seat belts, then that really defeats the purpose of a carseat because it would have no way to be strapped in properly. A car seat that is not buckled would obviously just fly away if it were hit.
Isn't there a weight limit or age limit on planes, can't a toddler just sit on their parents lap? Either way I wish you good luck, I hope that some of my ideas make sense to you. I think that people should never say "never"


----------



## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CinnamonDeMarco*
The man in who was called irresponsible in the other thread was probably living in the states. Maybe it is very hard for him to use a carseat, just like it is hard for me.

Lots of things are hard, especially lots of things about parenting. Installing my kid's carseat into a cab, lugging it through airports, etc. is hard. The alternative is him becoming a projectile and being smashed all over the road, so I'll deal with hard.

IMO, anyone who knows about carseats, can afford them (or has access to free carseat services) and chooses to forego them is negligent, especially as there are so many options to make them more convenient - the Sit 'n' Stroll that mamaduck posted about, the harnesses that attach to seat belts in cabs and fold up neatly into a small backpack carrier that your average 2-year-old could tote around. I can understand not wanting to lug a Britax Wizard and an infant carrier everywhere, but there are other options for those who take public transport and it's our job to know about them.


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

What is it that you want to know? Are you just venting or do you have a question?

DC


----------



## pinkmilk (Nov 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CinnamonDeMarco*
Even in the states it is hard for some people to use car seats. It's not just an issue for people who live abroad.

The man in who was called irresponsible in the other thread was probably living in the states. Maybe it is very hard for him to use a carseat, just like it is hard for me.

There are people who take public transportaion in the states. I used to live in Philadelphia, which has lots of taxis and the 3rd largest public transportation system in the US. Many people in Philly do not own a car. They use buses and subways with no car seats. There are no seat belts on Philly buses and trains. I was not aware that taxis had car seats available. I doubt they would have 2 toddler car seats available for me to use, if I lived in the states. Imagine if I went to a store on a bus in Philly and then wanted a ride home, or called a taxi to take me home. I'd have no car seats.

I am not looking for anyone to give me permission to not use car seats. I'm not complaining about how some people think car seats must always be used. I am trying to explain why it is hard for me (and others) to use car seats. Maybe some people had never thought about how people like me live.

I support you and what you are saying.
I have a friend who has a baby with a disability...she lives on a farm. When she drives places,often she has held him. He sits in a lap belt so if he starts to choke(which he does often) she can just lean him forward.
I have nursed my babies, actually taken them out of their carseat and nursed them while my husband drove. It was long trips and we just didn't want to take an extra hour or two on top of our 10 hour trip. Maybe it's selfish. And dangerous. But I believe that comfort and love and yes sometimes convenience outweighs the risk that an accident will happen in those few minutes...
I know I'll get flamed for this. But I don't really care. I just wanted you to know your not the only wakko!!


----------



## CinnamonDeMarco (Nov 4, 2005)

I don't catch taxis from my home. I catch from from the supermarket. I get to the supermarket on a safari. Remeber I have 2 toddlers.

Can you imagine holding a 2 year old's hand, carrying a 27 pound toddler plus 2 toddler car seats 4 blocks to a bus stop? Then imagine trying to hold all that on a bus. (safaris are even worse) All that to have car seats for the ride home.

I get a free ride to the park every week. I am also getting a ride to the beach next week. The Mom who is driving me has 2 children in car seats. My car seats don't fit in her car.

If I had to pay a taxi to come to my home and take me to the supermarket, park and beach, I just couldn't go very often. I can't afford it. As I already said, maybe my kids would go out once a month.

I expected some people to advise me to stay home. Wait until Dh is home to watch the kids and then go buy food. That makes more sense than saying, "You have to use car seats."


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CinnamonDeMarco*
I live in the Virgin Islands. When I am in the states, on vacation I can use car seats. That is only 2 weeks though. Normally, I don't use them.

The problem isn't that I don't have car seats. The problem is I can't use them very often in The Virgin Islands.

I posted this becasue I think some people think, "I would NEVER not use a car seat. All children must be in car seats and if Moms don't use them, they are negligent. PERIOD" and they haven't thought about it like how I am explaining it. I used to live in a yuppish suburb and I used to think the same way. I'm just trying to get people to see another point of view.

I know many people in my same situation and I've never heard of anyone who stays home all the time because they can't use car seats. If HelloKitty were in this situation, and chose to stay home for weeks-at-a-time, until her children were all 4 years old, I would respect that. I'm not going to do it though.

Ok, I read this and see your posts are about venting. You've made the decision not to use seats and listed a multitude of reasons or excuses why you don't. Obviously from a professional standpoint I would disagree with you. Using a car seat is really important. Ultimately YOU have made the decision not to use them and in the end, YOU and your kids will have to live with the consequences. We all take calculated risks everyday. This happens to be one you have decided you want to take. It's a big one. It's a life and death one. I sincerely hope nothing ever happens to any of you. Good luck.

Dallaschildren
CPS Instructor and momma to 2 sons in seats


----------



## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CinnamonDeMarco*
Even in the states it is hard for some people to use car seats. It's not just an issue for people who live abroad.

The man in who was called irresponsible in the other thread was probably living in the states. Maybe it is very hard for him to use a carseat, just like it is hard for me.

There are people who take public transportaion in the states. I used to live in Philadelphia, which has lots of taxis and the 3rd largest public transportation system in the US. Many people in Philly do not own a car. They use buses and subways with no car seats. There are no seat belts on Philly buses and trains. I was not aware that taxis had car seats available. I doubt they would have 2 toddler car seats available for me to use, if I lived in the states. Imagine if I went to a store on a bus in Philly and then wanted a ride home, or called a taxi to take me home. I'd have no car seats.

I am not looking for anyone to give me permission to not use car seats. I'm not complaining about how some people think car seats must always be used. I am trying to explain why it is hard for me (and others) to use car seats. Maybe some people had never thought about how people like me live.

I understand you. 14 years ago when my ds was a baby I lived in Chicago and had no car,needless to say I had no car seat. There were times when I took a cab and he was not restrained in a car seat. I was thinking about how we may leave the house in 1 direction on the subway but come back and use a cab so even the concept of carrying around a car seat would not have worked.

Now I live in Maine and its car land here so dd (who is 10 mos) always is in her carseat but I still remember the old days with ds and reading this thread brought that back to me.

Shay


----------



## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CinnamonDeMarco*
I expected some people to advise me to stay home. Wait until Dh is home to watch the kids and then go buy food. That makes more sense than saying, "You have to use car seats."

Have you even read the responses? I don't see where anyone told you that you have to use car seats.


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pinkmilk*
I support you and what you are saying.
I have a friend who has a baby with a disability...she lives on a farm. When she drives places,often she has held him. He sits in a lap belt so if he starts to choke(which he does often) she can just lean him forward.
I have nursed my babies, actually taken them out of their carseat and nursed them while my husband drove. It was long trips and we just didn't want to take an extra hour or two on top of our 10 hour trip. Maybe it's selfish. And dangerous. But I believe that comfort and love and yes sometimes convenience outweighs the risk that an accident will happen in those few minutes...
I know I'll get flamed for this. But I don't really care. I just wanted you to know your not the only wakko!!









There is help for your friend if she wants it. Children with disabilities and special healthcare needs deserve every opportunity to ride safe in a vehicle and their parents need access to the support and resources that will help them find out how to do so.
Special Needs Transportation Hotline

The National Center for Safe Transportation of Children with Special Healthcare Needs (part of the Automotive Safety Program of Riley Hospital for Children, Indianapolis, IN) has a nation-wide consultation service: 800-755-0912. Its web site (http://www.preventinjury.org/specNeeds.asp) lists CPS Technicians who have taken the course in Special Needs Transport. The Center also hosts a special needs list-serve. Contact Janell Havey, [email protected]

Dallaschildren
CPS Instructor and momma to 2 sons in seats


----------



## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pinkmilk*
Maybe it's selfish. And dangerous. But I believe that comfort and love and yes sometimes convenience outweighs the risk that an accident will happen in those few minutes...

I understand what you are saying but if your child was flung through a windshield and thrown from the car and killed would you still feel this way? I just don't understand how taking a few minutes to park on the side of the road to nurse is that big a deal - I've done it a million times. Parenting is inconvenient by it's very nature, but it's your responsibility to suck it up and deal sometimes for the safety of your child.


----------



## Justmee (Jun 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veggiemama4*
I find that your post is full of excuses for reasons that you are not using car seats: no money, no extra hands, too heavy to carry etc., While I find those to be common problems for ALL mothers regardless of where we are from (maybe not the $$ one, but the others, yes) basically you are feeling that it is worth the risk? What if something happens to your child that could have been prevented with a carseat, the rest of your life you will be thinking that you should have used one.

Well I live in Israel and before we owned a car we didn't have carseats either. I was lucky because my kids were peanuts and fit in their buckets until 18 months (when we bought the car) but Nechama was slightly too long for it at that point (still under the top, about 3/4 inch though instead of a full inch). It is not always possible to find someone to go with you everywhere. Most of my friends / peers work. I had 2 or 3 kids under 2, the baby rode in teh bucket but the other girls had to ride in seatbelts after the baby was born. It simply was not practical for me to carry 2 convertable car seats, a double stroller, a bucket carseat, and sling the baby. The carseat issue was why we bought a graco stroller for the twins (it holds 2 buckets) but really after Rivka was born there wasn't much I could do. Not to mention trying to properly install the seat in the taxi for a 5 minutes drive. Saying "don't go out" isn't practical either. My kids had to see doctors, I was pregnant and had to see the OBGYN / midwife. Dh couldn't always be home for every appointment. We always take risks with our kids. I often see it suggested "oh when my dc won't nap I go for a ride in my car to get him to fall asleep." How would you (general) feel if G/d forbid that was the time some drunk driver was on the wrong side of the highway and killed your properly strapped in child in his carseat who wasn't out becuase you "had" to be, but becuase it was easier for you to drive him until he felt tired.


----------



## veggiemama4 (Jun 28, 2005)

It seems to me that you are *more concerned with going places than with the safety of your kids*. It is a sad thing and I wish them the best.If that's the kind of parent you choose to be than I am sorry for you.

Maybe you can look inside yourself after reading all these posts and think about *prioroties and excuses and what it all means to be a parent*. Little children are easily amused, they don't have to go out in cars all the time, they like walks and they like it when people just play with them. If you feel like you have to make so many excuses than maybe the truth is that YOU are the one that is not happy, this is not an issue of car seats at all is it? Plus From your last post it sounded as if your dh has a car...


----------



## pinkmilk (Nov 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren*
There is help for your friend if she wants it. Children with disabilities and special healthcare needs deserve every opportunity to ride safe in a vehicle and their parents need access to the support and resources that will help them find out how to do so.
Special Needs Transportation Hotline

The National Center for Safe Transportation of Children with Special Healthcare Needs (part of the Automotive Safety Program of Riley Hospital for Children, Indianapolis, IN) has a nation-wide consultation service: 800-755-0912. Its web site (http://www.preventinjury.org/specNeeds.asp) lists CPS Technicians who have taken the course in Special Needs Transport. The Center also hosts a special needs list-serve. Contact Janell Havey, [email protected]

Dallaschildren
CPS Instructor and momma to 2 sons in seats

Thanks Dallaschildren. I will pass on this information to her but I doubt it would do any good. She is of the mindset that..."what worse could happen???My child is sick, completely disabled, unable to talk, move, eat...why would I worry about a car accident...how worse could he get?" And she's very opinionated in a bitchy, richious sort of way!!! And I don't judge her, I just love and support her decisions.

And then there's me of the mindset "I'd rather be unsafe for a few minutes and give my baby what he needs"

And poster who is more convenience driven(which I totally understand)

And then there's most people(I think)...


----------



## veggiemama4 (Jun 28, 2005)

Hi Rachel,
Is it the law there for carseats? I understand that we take risks with our kids, and I understand what it is like to be poor, have crappy cars or no cars. No money etc., but I personally feel that the safety of our children is the priority, and I think that cinnamondmarco sounds like she is just making excuses, she is not trying to find a solution as you were, she is just saying: I don't use carseats and I don't care. Everyone's situation is different and I think that if someone is asking for a soulution it is one thing, but if they are just being defensive on every suggestion than there is a deeper issue.


----------



## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pinkmilk*
And then there's me of the mindset "I'd rather be unsafe for a few minutes and give my baby what he needs"

I'm not trying to be snarky, I promise. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to say, though, "I'd rather my child be unsafe for a few minutes than be inconvenienced by giving him what he needs?" It's not as though you have to choose between him being unsafe and giving him what he needs. You can pull over and nurse. Yes, it's inconvenient, but it's not the end of the world. Watching your baby go flying through the windshield on the other hand... well, that would be the end of my world.


----------



## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Oh, and here is one solution for those who take taxis - a solution for the over 25 lb. set, anyway:

https://www.safebeginnings.com/WebCo...&cat=On-the-Go


----------



## veggiemama4 (Jun 28, 2005)

I have spent many an hour leaning over the carseat strtching my poor boob to it's limit, so that I didn't have to pull over or unbuckle my child. I of course wan't driving at the time....


----------



## CinnamonDeMarco (Nov 4, 2005)

Veggie Mama 4, I meant that people could suggest I leave my children with Dh and go to the supermarket by myself.

If you suggest my children go out (besides for walks) once a month, since that is all I can afford, then that makes sense. It isn't always practicle, but I could do that, at this time, if I chose to. Thank God, we haven't had to go to the doctor or anything lately.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veggiemama4*
Hi Rachel,
Is it the law there for carseats? I understand that we take risks with our kids, and I understand what it is like to be poor, have crappy cars or no cars. No money etc., but I personally feel that the safety of our children is the priority, and I think that cinnamondmarco sounds like she is just making excuses, she is not trying to find a solution as you were, she is just saying: I don't use carseats and I don't care. Everyone's situation is different and I think that if someone is asking for a soulution it is one thing, but if they are just being defensive on every suggestion than there is a deeper issue.

I tried to explain why I started this thread. I wonder what you think my deep issue is.


----------



## CinnamonDeMarco (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
Oh, and here is one solution for those who take taxis - a solution for the over 25 lb. set, anyway:

https://www.safebeginnings.com/WebCo...&cat=On-the-Go

WOW! I never knew about those. I think I'll ask my Mom to buy those for me.


----------



## pinkmilk (Nov 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty*
I understand what you are saying but if your child was flung through a windshield and thrown from the car and killed would you still feel this way? I just don't understand how taking a few minutes to park on the side of the road to nurse is that big a deal - I've done it a million times. Parenting is inconvenient by it's very nature, but it's your responsibility to suck it up and deal sometimes for the safety of your child.

You're totally right and I do admit my iresponsibility.
We all have things that we feel really passionate about.
Carseat safety is not one of my passions.
Children eating absolutely no sugar to support their immune system function is.
Does this mean I don't use carseats?No. I use them properly everyday except the 4 0r 5 times I've nursed while traveling. I know it's a risk. I just want to say that there are degrees of risk that people take every day. I'm glad there are people with such conviction doing whatever possible to make people like me understand that safety is a priority!
But there are also people like me who can see both sides of the issue and who can offer support to others who don't follow the majority of posters.


----------



## Justmee (Jun 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veggiemama4*
Hi Rachel,
Is it the law there for carseats? I understand that we take risks with our kids, and I understand what it is like to be poor, have crappy cars or no cars. No money etc., but I personally feel that the safety of our children is the priority, and I think that cinnamondmarco sounds like she is just making excuses, she is not trying to find a solution as you were, she is just saying: I don't use carseats and I don't care. Everyone's situation is different and I think that if someone is asking for a soulution it is one thing, but if they are just being defensive on every suggestion than there is a deeper issue.

Yes, there is a law here in fact it has recently gone up to 8 years old in booster seats, and up until 4 have to be in carseats. I never took a long trip without carseats, infact I even bought booster seats that would be easier to use in / out becuase I didn't think we were getting a car. I also never took pleasure trips, (heck I was pregnant with 2 babies who wants to go to the beach







). The only time I ever took them was 5 minutes to a dr. appointment or something. Dh did the shopping at night. Anyway I am just kind of rambling now, but no money really is an issue for a lot of people. And they don't know better. I recently explained to my friend about car seats expiring and she had never heard of such a thing. She is using the same seat for her 3yo as was used for her 17yo (he is #7). Many people also can't afford more than 1 carseat, so as soon as the baby outgrows the bucket, s/he goes in the carseat and even if older sib. is only 2.5 they go into the booster. Whoever is in the booster is then booted to a regular belt. This is the rotation and most people really do use 15 year old seats if they have older kids







Like I said the booster age was recently (within the past year I believe) raised to 8, but most people I know with 8yo don't have them in boosters







. It will take a while for it to change and become accepted. We were really lucky my mom dragged over 3 convertable seats for the kids. Even with a surcharge for extra baggage we still made out ahead ($160 for 3 evenflos). I saw the same seat here in a store and it was about $150 for one


----------



## veggiemama4 (Jun 28, 2005)

I am not trying to be hostile I just get irritated when people keep saying things like "I can't, I can't" I understand that some things have to be done - if your kid is sick and needs to go to the doctors and you have no access to a carseat would suggest staying home? no way. I just think that if you change your mindset to "I can" and you realize that it is important, you may be able to find a way to make it work. As far as your deeper issue, I don't know. Maybe you feel stranded and isolated and you feel that others are judging you, maybe you feel bad that you can't afford a car so you want to expose your children to other things, with or without a carseat. These are normal feelings and alot of moms feel like this, if you have other things going on you should share them. It seems that there is alot of advice here.


----------



## veggiemama4 (Jun 28, 2005)

Hi Rachel,
The law here (Mass) is that a child has to be in a booster seat until 80 pounds, (it used to be 40) it does seem extreme. My little niece is almost 11 and she only weighs about 50 pounds.. She hasn't sat in a booster seat for years and years. It seems silly to me that a child has to be 8yrs old or eighty pounds and still in a booster seat but in ten more years who knows maybe I will be calling myself crazy for not having my 9 year old in one... Why can't we just stick them all in bubbles until they're 18???


----------



## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pinkmilk*
But there are also people like me who can see both sides of the issue and who can offer support to others who don't follow the majority of posters.

One can empathize and be understanding yet not offer support for something they don't believe in.


----------



## pinkmilk (Nov 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty*
One can empathize and be understanding yet not offer support for something they don't believe in.

I hear you and I get it.


----------



## scatterbrainedmom (May 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CinnamonDeMarco*
WOW! I never knew about those. I think I'll ask my Mom to buy those for me.

we had one and i don't think it is that safe. i could never get it tight enough. IMO a seatbelt would work just as good.


----------



## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

It was my understanding that in the US, carseats are not required in taxis. Am I wrong? I have always used a carseat for dd, but if I were in NYC and used the occasonal taxi to get around, I would probably forgo the carseat. I cannot imagine lugging around my Britax Roundabout while doing errands. Nor can I imagine never leaving the house.


----------



## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CinnamonDeMarco*
I posted this becasue I think some people think, "I would NEVER not use a car seat. All children must be in car seats and if Moms don't use them, they are negligent. PERIOD" and they haven't thought about it like how I am explaining it. I used to live in a yuppish suburb and I used to think the same way. I'm just trying to get people to see another point of view.

I hear you CDM! Keep at it-- you're a breath of fresh air. "Other points of view" are often unwelcome here. Don't let the vocal majority try and shut you up, or paint you as a terrible, selfish and negligent mother. It's heartening to see that a couple of people on this thread are willing to see another person's reality.


----------



## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

A little girl died last night in a car accident here. She was restrained in a seat belt, not a booster or car seat. Her neck broke because of improper restraint.

Just something to think about.


----------



## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper*
It was my understanding that in the US, carseats are not required in taxis. Am I wrong? I have always used a carseat for dd, but if I were in NYC and used the occasonal taxi to get around, I would probably forgo the carseat. .

According to something I found online about NY car seat law, "Liveries, taxis, and public transportation buses are exempt from the occupant restraint law."


----------



## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hhurd*
"Other points of view" are often unwelcome here. Don't let the vocal majority try and shut you up, or paint you as a terrible, selfish and negligent mother.

Where is this coming from in relation to this thread?


----------



## CinnamonDeMarco (Nov 4, 2005)

She is refering to a portable car seat Dragenfly posted.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scatterbrainedmom*
we had one and i don't think it is that safe. i could never get it tight enough. IMO a seatbelt would work just as good.

SHOOT! I knew it was too good to be true. I'm going to search for some on-line reviews of those carseats tonight.


----------



## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veggiemama4*
It seems to me that you are *more concerned with going places than with the safety of your kids*. It is a sad thing and I wish them the best.If that's the kind of parent you choose to be than I am sorry for you.

Well, HelloKitty, here's ONE example.


----------



## Rigama (Oct 18, 2005)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...19010?v=glance

_Originally Posted by scatterbrainedmom
we had one and i don't think it is that safe. i could never get it tight enough. IMO a seatbelt would work just as good._

Check this out. It's called Mighty Tite, and it's soooo easy to use. We have one in dh's truck...it's old and the seatbelts just don't tighten. It tightens a carseat much more effectively than the H-clip or(or was it I clip?...the metal peice that comes with carseats) and you can install/uninstall a carseat in a snap. Totally worth the 16 bucks. In fact, I feel like the carseat in dh's 1989 pickup is much more secure than the carseat in my LATCH compatable 2002 Civic. I've been seriously considering getting a second one and throwing the latch teathers out the window!


----------



## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rigama*
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...19010?v=glance

_Originally Posted by scatterbrainedmom
we had one and i don't think it is that safe. i could never get it tight enough. IMO a seatbelt would work just as good._

Check this out. It's called Mighty Tite, and it's soooo easy to use. We have one in dh's truck...it's old and the seatbelts just don't tighten. It tightens a carseat much more effectively than the H-clip or(or was it I clip?...the metal peice that comes with carseats) and you can install/uninstall a carseat in a snap. Totally worth the 16 bucks. In fact, I feel like the carseat in dh's 1989 pickup is much more secure than the carseat in my LATCH compatable 2002 Civic. I've been seriously considering getting a second one and throwing the latch teathers out the window!

Do not EVER use a Mitey Tite. They are dangerous, untested secondary materials that can actually sever the seatbelt in a bad crash. Do NOT use this item.


----------



## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Since when does one post make up a vocal majority?


----------



## firstkid4me (Nov 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CinnamonDeMarco*
I am taking a trip to the states by plane soon. My younger child will not be in a car seat because I can't afford to buy another plane ticket. Either that, or we all stay home.

I totally understand what you're saying, I've always wondered what women who use public transportation do about carseats, but I just wanted to say that you can check your carseats at the gate of the plane. If there are any extra seats, the airline is required to give them to you for free for your carseat. There's no need to buy a seat for a child, I took a trip to NC from WI, and of the 4 flights (I had a stop in Chicago) I only had 1 that we couldn't use the carseat because it was full. We ended up putting her in the sling on my lap.


----------



## firstwomantomars (Mar 2, 2005)

nak...









It was like that where I grew up (no carseats) but I was already 7 when we moved there (caribbean) and my kids were born in france&canada.

But I have a similar dilemma. I take the bus and sometimes get rides home. I found a community center that rents newborn seats for 4$/month and I could easily wear Leigh and carry the seat on the bus then use it on the ride home. But now she and the seat are just not "carriable" together. Sometimes I do stay home and feel frustrated or I go without the seat and take the bus home even if someone offers a ride (though long with an active toddler so sometimes I just don't go).

I know this won't help the OP but I do understand her situation and the non-universal car-seat "principle".

Maybe an MDC mom can lend her a carseat? Where will you be in the US?


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Wow, this thread is full of judgment.

It's easy to sit back and judge, tell people they don't have their priorities in order, say that we feel sorry for them, list our credentials as "mama to two car seated kids," when our sparkly Britax Whosawhats are installed in our vehicles in our driveway steps from our front door.

And comparing this issue to the airport is silly IMO. Yes the airport is a PITA, but most of us don't go very often. Imagine going thru a huge giant hassle every time you wanted to go out? I'd either stay home or find a way around the hassle. And you can only stay home for so long.

When my daughter was small I didn't have a vehicle, and even with the bucket seat it was a huge, giant PITA to tote around the bucket seat, or have it with me whenever I might need to grab a ride or a taxi.

Moreover, toting around two toddler carseats along with two toddlers is more than a PITA, it is an impossibility. In the OP's position, depending on how big and busy the roads are between my house and the store/park/wherever, I would probably do exactly as she is doing.

I think people should try to extend themselves beyond your own experiences a little bit, and instead of imagining you would strap those seats to your back wherever you go and not mind a bit, contemplate the daily reality.


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rigama*
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...19010?v=glance

_Originally Posted by scatterbrainedmom
we had one and i don't think it is that safe. i could never get it tight enough. IMO a seatbelt would work just as good._

Check this out. It's called Mighty Tite, and it's soooo easy to use. We have one in dh's truck...it's old and the seatbelts just don't tighten. It tightens a carseat much more effectively than the H-clip or(or was it I clip?...the metal peice that comes with carseats) and you can install/uninstall a carseat in a snap. Totally worth the 16 bucks. In fact, I feel like the carseat in dh's 1989 pickup is much more secure than the carseat in my LATCH compatable 2002 Civic. I've been seriously considering getting a second one and throwing the latch teathers out the window!

Just wanted to note that this product is not crash tested and not safe. It is an aftermarket part. After market parts do not need to be used if the car seat is installed correctly. Aftermarket parts like the mighty tight only mask an incorrect install. If you want to have the seat checked you can go here for info on someone certified in your area who can assist you. http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/CPS/CPSFitting/Index.cfm It may just be a matter of you locking your seatbelt. Pull the belt all the way out and then feed a little back into the retractor. Try to pull it out again and if you have a lockable belt, it should not come back out. It will lock everytime you feed belt in and then try to get more belt out.

Dallaschildren
CPS Instructor and momma to 2 sons in seats


----------



## la mamita (Apr 10, 2005)

***


----------



## Teensy (Feb 22, 2002)

When DS was 2 months old I took a trip to the Virgin Islands. I had taken the car seat with us so he would be safe - our ride picks up up from the airport and the van had no seatbelts. Boy, was I surprised.


----------



## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Wow, this thread is full of judgment.

It's easy to sit back and judge, tell people they don't have their priorities in order, say that we feel sorry for them, list our credentials as "mama to two car seated kids," when our sparkly Britax Whosawhats are installed in our vehicles in our driveway steps from our front door.

And comparing this issue to the airport is silly IMO. Yes the airport is a PITA, but most of us don't go very often. Imagine going thru a huge giant hassle every time you wanted to go out? I'd either stay home or find a way around the hassle. And you can only stay home for so long.

When my daughter was small I didn't have a vehicle, and even with the bucket seat it was a huge, giant PITA to tote around the bucket seat, or have it with me whenever I might need to grab a ride or a taxi.

Moreover, toting around two toddler carseats along with two toddlers is more than a PITA, it is an impossibility. In the OP's position, depending on how big and busy the roads are between my house and the store/park/wherever, I would probably do exactly as she is doing.

I think people should try to extend themselves beyond your own experiences a little bit, and instead of imagining you would strap those seats to your back wherever you go and not mind a bit, contemplate the daily reality.









:


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
It's easy to sit back and judge, tell people they don't have their priorities in order, say that we feel sorry for them, list our credentials as "mama to two car seated kids," when our sparkly Britax Whosawhats are installed in our vehicles in our driveway steps from our front door.

Are you referring to me when you posted the "mama to two car seated kids" comment?


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren*
Are you referring to me when you posted the "mama to two car seated kids" comment?

Yup.


----------



## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

(to the two pps)








:


----------



## Rigama (Oct 18, 2005)

dallaschildren It may just be a matter of you locking your seatbelt. Pull the belt all the way out and then feed a little back into the retractor. Try to pull it out again and if you have a lockable belt said:


> The seat belt in the extened cab of dh's truck do not lock. They pull out and out and out and out....And then stay there. They do not come back in at all.


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Yup.

Your comment is out of line. How rude. I earned my license, I work my ass off helping parents, even those with poor attitudes like yours, and I know my kids are as safe as they can be in a moving ton of steel in their car seats. It sounds like you ain't so confident.

*Dallaschildren
CPS Instructor and momma to 2 sons in seats* (gasp and they are Britax whosahwats







)


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Well that's great, DC, I am not criticizing you for using seats for your children, or for teaching other people how to use them.

What I am saying is that as a mama with Britax Whosawhats installed in your car in your driveway, you (and others in a similar position who are posting in judgment on this thread) cannot know what it is like to be a mama who does not have Britax Whosawhats installed in her car in her driveway. Kwim?


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rigama*
The seat belt in the extened cab of dh's truck do not lock. They pull out and out and out and out....And then stay there. They do not come back in at all.

You have what we call in our field, PITA seatbelts.







I am sorry you have probably had a tough time getting a tight fit. You have what is referred to as "emergency" locking retractors, which only lock when you break hard. Please try to find a certified fitting station and have it installed with a locking clip. Locking clips are heavy duty specially designed clips that are used in installs with belts like what is in your car and are made to withstand crash forces until your seatbelt kicks in to do it's job.

Dallaschildren
CPS Instructor and momma to 2 sons in seats


----------



## Rigama (Oct 18, 2005)

Thank you DC


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Well that's great, DC, I am not criticizing you for using seats for your children, or for teaching other people how to use them.

What I am saying is that as a mama with Britax Whosawhats installed in your car in your driveway, you (and others in a similar position who are posting in judgment on this thread) cannot know what it is like to be a mama who does not have Britax Whosawhats installed in her car in her driveway. Kwim?

No where in this thread did I judge the OP. No where. I gave her factual info in an empathtic way. I did not berate her or criticize her for not using car seats. I don't have to agree and do not. Her situation is not all that uncommon. Very little surprises me. Where have I ever berated someone for not buying Britax? Where have I ever judged someone because they don't have a Britax? What I have a problem with is you bringing my kids and my sig line into your post. That's BS and totally uncalled for and quite personal. FTR, I post that particular sig line only after posts I am addressing in a professional capacity. I have the license and the "credentials" and I am very proud of the work I do. If that offends anyone or makes them feel judged, that's not my problem. When you go to the doctor, do you not want to know what his/her credentials are? Would you be suspect if they didn't have any?

DC


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

What I am saying is that "mama to two car seated kids" is relative, IMO, in this thread, if your car is sitting in your driveway. I am a mama who has BTDT with having a kid but no vehicle, and I know what a PITA it is to deal with the car seat issue.

I have heard the judgments all around this board, the "OMGZ she got a taxi but she DIDN'T HAVE A CARSEAT!!!!!!!111" from mamas who own vehicles. And here it is on this thread.

I think if you have not BTDT, and are a mama to one or two or three car seated kids who owns a vehicle that you can access whenever you want by taking just a few steps out to the driveway, I believe you (general) ought to step back from judging and waxing eloquent about all the heroic measures you (general) would take in the OP's situation.

That's all I'm saying.


----------



## Millie Ivy (Dec 8, 2001)

I know this is slightly OT, and not really contributing, but this is one of the most bizarre threads I have read...

My goodness.

FTR, I do use seats, I would choose to use seats at every possible time, I have been inconvenienced many times by using them and still choose too. I was going to say a bunch more, but it's all been said, and this just isn't going anywhere....

Dallaschildren, are you in Dallas? I am in Flower Mound. You sound like you know your stuff


----------



## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

I haven't read this thread fully, but I wanted to add my 2 cents.

I have lived in Senegal and traveled a great deal in West Africa, where car seats are unheard of and seatbelts very rare.

The car accident rate is incredibly high (would be higher if more people privately owned cars) due to a lack of regulations for car care (no annual inspections, for example, lots of uncertified mechanics), really bad driving (esp. truck drivers who drive way too fast and are often on drugs), terrible roads, few traffic lights/signs, and no sidewalks.

Add on to that a high AIDS rate, tainted blood supplies, and few emergency medical evacuation facilities, and basically if you get into a serious car accident in West Africa, most likely you are dead.

The expectations for survivability is lower - this is true across the board for all things - illness, accidents, natural disasters. What we find objectionable in the US (a la hurricaine Katrina) is considered part of life in other parts of the world.

Does this make it okay or acceptable? Well, I personally find it evil that children die of preventable illnesses at the age of three. However, that doesn't make it okay to judge people for their decisions when they are coping with a system the best they can.

I judge the system and work to change the system.

For me, unfortunately, it often means that car seats drop to the bottom of the list. For example, I would be more concerned about the safety of public transportation in general. A car seat ain't helping if the taxi careens off a cliff (which I have actually seen happen in Cameroon - scariest moment of my life).

I have seen a bush taxi whose axle snapped in half. I have been in a taxi where the engine caught fire while we were driving. I have been in a bus that nearly flipped over because they were overloaded. These are seen as normal, daily risks - I doubt people are really going to think that a carseat is going to make a big difference.

I guess all I am saying is that we need to look at the context of the decision - and see that the context in most cases actually limits the choices individuals have.

Siobhan


----------



## firstwomantomars (Mar 2, 2005)

Thanks for the links to the portable carseats!

Seems like the two mentioned were not safe enough? For the OP, would the first one suggested (safe beginnings) be a good alternative to not using a car seat at all for 2 weeks? Seems like it might be a good idea to try...

Any more suggestions from everyone as to how to carry a carseat and a 16-month old kid : other carseats, portable or just lighter or with a strap or something? (I'd love to find one!!!)???


----------



## Shiloh (Apr 15, 2005)

I have two portable car seats its just the backs and has a five point strap on it, it was designed for taxis, limos etc. They rock I can fit two in my diaper bag. I use a lot of public transportation the sit and stroll is also great for airports its a stroller and car seat combo.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Tote-n-Go-Portab...QQcmdZViewItem


----------



## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

Good grief, this post got out of hand.

1. The OP has stated that she doesn't use car seats and describes the dillemma in the Virgin Islands.

2. She uses public transporation as her example. This is irrelevant, NO ONE uses car seats on public transportation ANYWHERE, because public transporation such as buses and subways and whatnot aren't DESIGNED for car seats.

3. She assumes people are thinking bad of her because of her situation. Other posters rush in to scold us for being 'judgemental'. Um, how rude. I wasn't judging her situation. At all. I don't think anyone else was. Why on earth would you bring a car seat onto a bus?

4. What it boils down to, here in the US and other similar countries, car seat usage is the law, car seats are readily available and not in comparison terribly expenisve. I can go to Wal-Mart and buy a perfectly good convertible for under 40 dollars. Not using a car seat in this country is inexcusable. In other countires, it's unfortunate but understandable.


----------



## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
What I am saying is that "mama to two car seated kids" is relative, IMO, in this thread, if your car is sitting in your driveway. I am a mama who has BTDT with having a kid but no vehicle, and I know what a PITA it is to deal with the car seat issue.

I haven't seen anyone say it isn't a PITA. And, as a mama who's been there/done that, I know for a fact it's a PITA. But lots of things about parenting are a big 'ol PITA. Some things you just have to suck up and deal with for the safety of your children.

There are options that make it easier and, although maybe not as safe as being in a locked-down carseat, safer than just relying on holding a babe in arms or putting a child in a seatbelt that doesn't fit properly (as would be the case with the portable 5-point restraint as opposed to the adult seatbelt). With those options, if they are available to you, I can't for the life of me imagine how anyone can justify not using one.


----------



## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Wow, this thread is full of judgment.

It's easy to sit back and judge, tell people they don't have their priorities in order, say that we feel sorry for them, list our credentials as "mama to two car seated kids," when our sparkly Britax Whosawhats are installed in our vehicles in our driveway steps from our front door.

And comparing this issue to the airport is silly IMO. Yes the airport is a PITA, but most of us don't go very often. Imagine going thru a huge giant hassle every time you wanted to go out? I'd either stay home or find a way around the hassle. And you can only stay home for so long.

When my daughter was small I didn't have a vehicle, and even with the bucket seat it was a huge, giant PITA to tote around the bucket seat, or have it with me whenever I might need to grab a ride or a taxi.

Moreover, toting around two toddler carseats along with two toddlers is more than a PITA, it is an impossibility. In the OP's position, depending on how big and busy the roads are between my house and the store/park/wherever, I would probably do exactly as she is doing.

I think people should try to extend themselves beyond your own experiences a little bit, and instead of imagining you would strap those seats to your back wherever you go and not mind a bit, contemplate the daily reality.


A big 'ol YEAH THAT to that.


----------



## Shiloh (Apr 15, 2005)

I still think a baby in a bucket car seat is still safer on public transportation that in arms. I have used my bucket with my infant in Jamaica years and years ago sure I got looks but... buses also should have safety belts no?


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
What I am saying is that "mama to two car seated kids" is relative, IMO, in this thread, if your car is sitting in your driveway. I am a mama who has BTDT with having a kid but no vehicle, and I know what a PITA it is to deal with the car seat issue.

I have heard the judgments all around this board, the "OMGZ she got a taxi but she DIDN'T HAVE A CARSEAT!!!!!!!111" from mamas who own vehicles. And here it is on this thread.

I think if you have not BTDT, and are a mama to one or two or three car seated kids who owns a vehicle that you can access whenever you want by taking just a few steps out to the driveway, I believe you (general) ought to step back from judging and waxing eloquent about all the heroic measures you (general) would take in the OP's situation.

That's all I'm saying.

Do you not see the hypocrisy in your response to me? All this talk of judgement and all. After your attack and generalized assumptions about me, I should set the record straight. I help ALL people. I don't care about what brand of seat they own, I just try to make sure they have one. I try to make sure they understand crash dynamics and why it is so important to restrain their kids. I install seats everywhere...million dollar houses in University Park to shacks in east Dallas. I speak to crowds of people for free weekly. People across all lines. I travel to peoples homes and deliver seats to them because they can't afford food let alone a car seat. My family goes without so that I can do this. I learned sign language and Spanish to communicate with those who don't have anywhere to go. I am the only resource some people have. This is MY passion. This is MY mission. And I love what I do. At the end of the day, does it matter what brand of seats *my* kids sit in? Wow. Just wow.

DC


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
I haven't seen anyone say it isn't a PITA. And, as a mama who's been there/done that, I know for a fact it's a PITA. But lots of things about parenting are a big 'ol PITA. Some things you just have to suck up and deal with for the safety of your children.

I have seen a lot of mamas express a lack of understanding for how impractical or impossible it can be to carseat kids when you don't own a car.


----------



## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

Dallaschildren









I have great respect for what you do


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bella Babe*
I know this is slightly OT, and not really contributing, but this is one of the most bizarre threads I have read...

My goodness.

FTR, I do use seats, I would choose to use seats at every possible time, I have been inconvenienced many times by using them and still choose too. I was going to say a bunch more, but it's all been said, and this just isn't going anywhere....

Dallaschildren, are you in Dallas? I am in Flower Mound. You sound like you know your stuff









Hey Shelley....yes I am in Dallas. It's hotter than hell already....uggghhh...HATE the humidity.









DC


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren*
After your attack and generalized assumptions about me, I should set the record straight. I help ALL people. I don't care about what brand of seat they own, I just try to make sure they have one. I try to make sure they understand crash dynamics and why it is so important to restrain their kids. I install seats everywhere...million dollar houses in University Park to shacks in east Dallas. I speak to crowds of people for free weekly. People across all lines. I travel to peoples homes and deliver seats to them because they can't afford food let alone a car seat. My family goes without so that I can do this. I learned sign language and Spanish to communicate with those who don't have anywhere to go. I am the only resource some people have. This is MY passion. This is MY mission. And I love what I do. At the end of the day, does it matter what brand of seats *my* kids sit in? Wow. Just wow.

DC

I am not attacking you or anyone else. *All* I am saying is that mamas on this board who own vehicles with lah-dee-dah carseats in them do not know how it is to:

- not own a vehicle

- not have enough money to afford a carseat

- carry around a huge carseat (or two) AND children at the same time

- not live in a country where provisions are made for carseat use everywhere you go


----------



## CinnamonDeMarco (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Joannarachel*

3. She assumes people are thinking bad of her because of her situation. Other posters rush in to scold us for being 'judgemental'. Um, how rude. I wasn't judging her situation. At all. I don't think anyone else was. Why on earth would you bring a car seat onto a bus?

4. What it boils down to, here in the US and other similar countries, car seat usage is the law, car seats are readily available and not in comparison terribly expenisve. I can go to Wal-Mart and buy a perfectly good convertible for under 40 dollars. Not using a car seat in this country is inexcusable. In other countires, it's unfortunate but understandable.

Saying I don't use car seats on public transportation is relevant to the thread. I started the thread. It is an example of how I don't use car seats. I put it in my first post.

I would have to bring car seats on the bus in order to have them for the taxi ride home. I take a safari to the store. I can't fit groceries on a safari. I take a taxi home. Sometimes I accept rides to places that aren't accessable by public transportation (example, the park for playgroup) I don't use cvar seats because they don't fit in the car. The ownner of the car has her own children in car seats. All the car seats don't fit.

The same thing can (and does) happen in the states. It is not just a problem for people abroad.

Saying "Car seats only cost $40 and everyone in the US must use them PERIOD" Is missing the point of this thread.

I can afford to buy a car seat, but how do I use it? It is very hard. That is my point.

I am going to look into those portable car seats. That is the only helpful suggestion I've gotten. I am a little distracted, because of my DC. I will re-read the thread later to make sure I didn't miss any other helpful suggestions.


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
I am not attacking you or anyone else. *All* I am saying is that mamas on this board who own vehicles with lah-dee-dah carseats in them do not know how it is to:

- not own a vehicle

- not have enough money to afford a carseat

- carry around a huge carseat (or two) AND children at the same time

- not live in a country where provisions are made for carseat use everywhere you go

And still, your personal attack on me did what? If one doesn't own a car, then for the most part it is a moot point. I don't apologize for having a car in my driveway. If I didn't, I wouldn't be able to help anyone else. FWIW I don't believe that this is what you were getting at originally. If this is what you meant, you would have posted this to begin with instead of assuming and judging people like me.

DC


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Sigh. This is my last post to you about your belief that I attacked you, DC, because I don't want to derail the thread.

I was pointing out things people said that IMO were about making judgments about experiences they have not had themselves. Your signature about "mama to two carseated kids" in a thread started by a mama who does not have carseated kids, along with other comments by other posters saying things like (I'm paraphrasing here) "good luck to you," and "you need to get your priorities straight," seemed to me to help create a tone of judgment without personal experience of the situation that is being judged.

That is all I am saying.


----------



## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CinnamonDeMarco*
I am going to look into those portable car seats. That is the only helpful suggestion I've gotten. I am a little distracted, because of my DC. I will re-read the thread later to make sure I didn't miss any other helpful suggestions.

I think there was a lot of confusion about what you were seeking in this thread. If you are looking for possible solutions to use then I think that's a whole different take on things and you would have received much different responses from the beginning had that been clear. I apologize if my well meaning comments were part of what distracted from what you were after.

Here is a portable device you might want to look at which looks interesting:
http://www.onestepahead.com/product/...13766/117.html


----------



## CinnamonDeMarco (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty*
I think there was a lot of confusion about what you were seeking in this thread. If you are looking for possible solutions to use then I think that's a whole different take on things and you would have received much different responses from the beginning had that been clear. I apologize if my well meaning comments were part of what distracted from what you were after.

Here is a portable device you might want to look at which looks interesting:
http://www.onestepahead.com/product/...13766/117.html

I did not start the thread for suggestions, permission or support. Although I appriate the good suggestions and the people who said they lived abroad or in Chicago with no car and know first-hand what I mean.

On a thread called "Let's rant about irresponsible parents" someone said they saw a Dad get out of a taxi with a baby and no car seat. I thought, "I don't use car seats either." I thought it would be good to explain how hard it is for me and other people (including people who live in the states) to use car seats. I used to live in a yuppish suburb and I used to think anyone who didn't use car seats was crazy/negligent/ignorant. All children must be in car seats PERIOD. I didn't understand other people's lifestyles (for lack of a better word) This thread is meant to get people who think like that (car seats are a MUST, PERIOD, end of story) to see another point of view. It was meant as a FYI kind of thing.


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Sigh. This is my last post to you about your belief that I attacked you, DC, because I don't want to derail the thread.

I was pointing out things people said that IMO were about making judgments about experiences they have not had themselves. Your signature about "mama to two carseated kids" in a thread started by a mama who does not have carseated kids, along with other comments by other posters saying things like (I'm paraphrasing here) "good luck to you," and "you need to get your priorities straight," seemed to me to help create a tone of judgment without personal experience of the situation that is being judged.

That is all I am saying.

Own it thismama. We both know your post wasn't just about being "judged". And AGAIN, when I give a "professional" opinion, I post that sig in EVERY post. Why would this thread be any different? Whatever.


----------



## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CinnamonDeMarco*
I did not start the thread for suggestions, permission or support. ... It was meant as a FYI kind of thing.

OK... well the board doesn't host threads that do not accept responses unless they are board announcements by CM. This is a disscussion forum.


----------



## scatterbrainedmom (May 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rigama*
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...19010?v=glance

_Originally Posted by scatterbrainedmom
we had one and i don't think it is that safe. i could never get it tight enough. IMO a seatbelt would work just as good._

Check this out. It's called Mighty Tite, and it's soooo easy to use. We have one in dh's truck...it's old and the seatbelts just don't tighten. It tightens a carseat much more effectively than the H-clip or(or was it I clip?...the metal peice that comes with carseats) and you can install/uninstall a carseat in a snap. Totally worth the 16 bucks. In fact, I feel like the carseat in dh's 1989 pickup is much more secure than the carseat in my LATCH compatable 2002 Civic. I've been seriously considering getting a second one and throwing the latch teathers out the window!

the seat belt wasn't the problem. it was where the seatbelt went through on the back. like it was too high up to be any good? the front would just fall forward.

(btw, you should never use any items that did not come with the carseat. you could actually tighten it too tight and cause damage. seat manufacturers won't honor warranty if you use aftermarket parts in conjunction with the seat)


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren*
Own it thismama. We both know your post wasn't just about being "judged". And AGAIN, when I give a "professional" opinion, I post that sig in EVERY post. Why would this thread be any different? Whatever.

Last one... for real... (as I say to my kid all too often)... My post was about exactly what I said it was about, nothing more, nothing less.

I had no idea you post that sig any time you give a "professional" opinion. I was speaking to it as I saw it in the context of this thread.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty*
OK... well the board doesn't host threads that do not accept responses unless they are board announcements by CM. This is a disscussion forum.









Well what I thought the discussion was about is the OP's perception (that I also share) of judgment and US-centrism often expressed about AP/NFL issues, in this case specifically as it relates to carseats.

At least, that's what I've been discussing.


----------



## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Well what I thought the discussion was about is the OP's perception (that I also share) of judgment and US-centrism often expressed about AP/NFL issues, in this case specifically as it relates to carseats.

At least, that's what I've been discussing.

I would like to be part of that discussion, and thought I was, but then it was made clear that the only information she found useful was from people that provided links to portable seats. Which personally I found offensive since I've invested some time in the discussion this morning.


----------



## Clarinet (Nov 3, 2005)

I'd be way too scared for my children's safety to not have them in carseats. I can sort of understand if you live in the country where you won't be going more than 10 or 15 miles an hour. But when you're talking city traffic, speeding cars and BABIES, I don't like it at all.


----------



## mommyto3girls (May 3, 2005)

Quote:

Moreover, toting around two toddler carseats along with two toddlers is more than a PITA, it is an impossibility. In the OP's position, depending on how big and busy the roads are between my house and the store/park/wherever, I would probably do exactly as she is doing.
At least 2 different momma's have posted links to the fold up travel carseat vests. Obviously not the safest option (and yes, I do own and have used this travel vest) but much much safer than a regular seatbelt. One major thing with it is that there is no seat belt laying across the child's neck, or getting shoved behind them and having a lapbelt only situation.

It seems like many posters keep going back to "dragging around 2 toddler carseats" Why couldn't you keep 2 travel vests in the diaper bag and use those?


----------



## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CinnamonDeMarco*
I did not start the thread for suggestions, permission or support. Although I appriate the good suggestions and the people who said they lived abroad or in Chicago with no car and know first-hand what I mean.

On a thread called "Let's rant about irresponsible parents" someone said they saw a Dad get out of a taxi with a baby and no car seat. I thought, "I don't use car seats either." I thought it would be good to explain how hard it is for me and other people (including people who live in the states) to use car seats. I used to live in a yuppish suburb and I used to think anyone who didn't use car seats was crazy/negligent/ignorant. All children must be in car seats PERIOD. I didn't understand other people's lifestyles (for lack of a better word) This thread is meant to get people who think like that (car seats are a MUST, PERIOD, end of story) to see another point of view. It was meant as a FYI kind of thing.

Ah, that clears things up. Okee dokee. Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
It's easy to sit back and judge, list our credentials as "mama to two car seated kids," when our sparkly Britax Whosawhats are installed in our vehicles in our driveway steps from our front door.

Just thought this bears repeating. What exactly did you really mean again? That's rhetorical...no need for an answer.







Still waiting for answers to ANY of my other questions.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Sorry, what other questions? If you write em down for me, I'll do my best.


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

You've quoted every one of my posts and you saw no questions? What were you reading?


----------



## dove (Jun 13, 2005)

just read the whole thread. Phew! Op, I totally feel for your situation, but I would keep looking for safer options...wish you had started out this thread with your fyi, though - I think the responses you were looking for would have come sooner.

I just recently saw a carseat that folds up and into a briefcase that is just a little bigger than a computer bag. check it out:
http://www.safeguardseat.com/go/index.htm
looks like it works for 30 pounds to 100 pounds. Hope this helps someone. It is made by a very reputable company. (Dallaschildren, what do you know about this??? I might look into getting one, as I take trips often, and yes, it is a huge pain to schlep a carseat, but you just do it, ya know?)

Check out that whole site. There are products for children riding on buses (yes, for school buses, but you never know what kind of seats there might be on P.T. in other places, so just thought I'd put it out there) and for children with disabilities.

And I have also seen this, for carrying car seats wherever you need to:
http://www.onestepahead.com/jump.jsp...756&change=117

hth someone.


----------



## dove (Jun 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
I am not attacking you or anyone else. *All* I am saying is that mamas on this board who own vehicles with lah-dee-dah carseats in them do not know how it is to:

- not own a vehicle

- not have enough money to afford a carseat

- carry around a huge carseat (or two) AND children at the same time

- not live in a country where provisions are made for carseat use everywhere you go

you might want to rethink this one.







You really can't say that for sure...and it's pretty insulting to state this like it is fact. I can see both sides of the coin, kwim?


----------



## Greensleeves (Aug 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren*
Just wanted to note that this product is not crash tested and not safe. It is an aftermarket part. After market parts do not need to be used if the car seat is installed correctly. Aftermarket parts like the mighty tight only mask an incorrect install. If you want to have the seat checked you can go here for info on someone certified in your area who can assist you. http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/CPS/CPSFitting/Index.cfm It may just be a matter of you locking your seatbelt. Pull the belt all the way out and then feed a little back into the retractor. Try to pull it out again and if you have a lockable belt, it should not come back out. It will lock everytime you feed belt in and then try to get more belt out.

Dallaschildren
CPS Instructor and momma to 2 sons in seats

Okey doke, well, this may be slightly OT but I just wanted to express my sincere appreciation that someone brought this up in this thread.

We use the Mighty-Tite product and I had no idea it is not recommended by some car seat techs. When we originally researched it for our first dd there was nothing but praise for it. I guess that shows that I need to be updating my info and research more for these kinds of things.


----------



## firstwomantomars (Mar 2, 2005)

Thanks for the links!

The carseat backpack looks great for me because I have a carseat and only need to carry one toddler. I wonder if I can carry Leigh on my hip at the same time









Sorry to the OP for derailing from your first message but thanks for offering the opportunity for people to also suggest links and other options...I know in your case they probably wouldn't help though...

I do agree that the difficulties you face also exist in North America. I've lived in different countries and have seen parents faced with the same "dilemma", mostly because they used public transportation and sometimes got rides...but also several other situations where it was not so clear-cut that using a carseat was the only/best option.


----------



## Doodlebugsmom (Aug 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dove*
you might want to rethink this one.







You really can't say that for sure...and it's pretty insulting to state this like it is fact. I can see both sides of the coin, kwim?

ITA, Dove. I have a car in my garage with two Britax Whosawhats. I can totally see where the OP is coming from. I wouldn't be freaked out about not using carseats on public transit or in a country where it just isn't feasable. I don't live my life thinking that life in other countries is or should be like the the US.


----------



## Fiercemama (May 30, 2003)

Well, I'm glad I waded through all the crap in this thread, because I did find some useful information, as well as some BAAAAD information that needs to be addressed.

CDM, our family is car-free. We live in a big city, and at this point it is mostly a lifestyle choice for us. Since DD got out of a bucket, we've virtually stopped being in cars with her. We have a big ole car seat that has perhaps been used less than 10 times (she's 35 lbs now). There have been a handful of times when I've taken her in a cab without a seat. I've stopped since she no longer goes in at least a sling or carrier, which I'm totally aware is not a replacement for a car seat. I sympathize with some of the challenging scenarios that you've described. None of us parent "perfectly" all the time and in every situation. Mamas are darn lucky if you never have to make a choice between less than ideal options.

Anywhoo. A PP mentioned that her local legislation now requires that kids are in booster seats til 80 lbs instead of 40, and this seems a bit extreme. The legislation has recently changed where I live too. As its a way off for us, and we don't really use cars, I'm not totally conversant with the regs here, but I think kids must use a booster til age 9 now (I'm in Ontario).

Know why? When car seat use became the law, death of children in car accidents dropped significantly, but only for children aged 0-5. The rates for kids aged 5-9 were unchanged. Shoulder restraints pose a choking/decapitation hazard for kids, as they ride too high for kids in this age range. Tucking the should strap behind and just giving them a lap belt is also not safe. Lap belts are designed to cross over an adult's pelvic girdle, made of bone. On a child, they cross the abdomen and soft internal organs.

Thanks for the info on the "portable" car seats. They don't seem optimal, but I'm interested to hear more about them. Keep the info coming.

My own pet peeve - why aren't car manufacturers (airplanes too) required to have a built in jump seat/restraint? They can put a man on the moon, but somehow can't come up with a universal built in design? IMHO, its just one more proof of A) our litigious society (car makers don't want to be liable) and B) kids are second class citizens.


----------



## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fiercemama*
My own pet peeve - why aren't car manufacturers (airplanes too) required to have a built in jump seat/restraint?

That would certainly make life a whole lot easier wouldn't it?? Good point.


----------



## CinnamonDeMarco (Nov 4, 2005)

I'm glad people understand why it is very hard for me to use car seats, however I just want to say (again) that this is not just an issue for those who live abroad. Just in case you aren't familar with The Virgin Islands, it is very modern. We have cell phones, SUVs and McDonalds. We have most of the luxeries available in the states. Saying, "Okay for you, but people in the states must use car seats, is missing the point. It's hard in the states too.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CinnamonDeMarco*
The man in who was called irresponsible in the other thread was probably living in the states. Maybe it is very hard for him to use a carseat, just like it is hard for me.

There are people who take public transportaion in the states. I used to live in Philadelphia, which has lots of taxis and the 3rd largest public transportation system in the US. Many people in Philly do not own a car. They use buses and subways with no car seats. There are no seat belts on Philly buses and trains. I was not aware that taxis had car seats available. I doubt they would have 2 toddler car seats available for me to use, if I lived in the states. Imagine if I went to a store on a bus in Philly ETA: or walked to the store and bought a lot of food...and then wanted a ride home, or called a taxi to take me home. I'd have no car seats.

I am not looking for anyone to give me permission to not use car seats. I'm not complaining about how some people think car seats must always be used. I am trying to explain why it is hard for me (and others) to use car seats. Maybe some people had never thought about how people like me live.


----------



## Zach'smom (Nov 5, 2004)

I don't think that anyone has said that lugging carseats all over the place is easy. Not even in the States. It is difficult and a big pain in the butt. But it is something I have to do. The safest way for my son to ride is in a carseat.


----------



## CinnamonDeMarco (Nov 4, 2005)

How do you do it Zach's mom?


----------



## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Fiercemama- the new law is a child must be in a booster until age 8 or 80 pounds.

It is also a new-ish law in Ontario that children must be in safety seats in taxis. Some taxi companies have some, but often charge a fee for the use or you have to wait a long time until one becomes available.


----------



## Zach'smom (Nov 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CinnamonDeMarco*
How do you do it Zach's mom?

I lug the darn carseats around. I've strapped them on to my wheeled luggage, hauled them on my back, etc.

As previous posters have shown there are different options for lighter, more protable carseats if you are interested.

What it boils down to is that you are the Mama. You make the decisions for your kids safety. Do what you think is best!


----------



## Zach'smom (Nov 5, 2004)

oops! Double post.


----------



## la mamita (Apr 10, 2005)

***


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dove*

I just recently saw a carseat that folds up and into a briefcase that is just a little bigger than a computer bag. check it out:
http://www.safeguardseat.com/go/index.htm
looks like it works for 30 pounds to 100 pounds. Hope this helps someone. It is made by a very reputable company. (Dallaschildren, what do you know about this??? I might look into getting one, as I take trips often, and yes, it is a huge pain to schlep a carseat, but you just do it, ya know?)


Dove,

I have not installed or even seen one of these yet. This seat last I read about it, was a prototype. So it appears it has come to fruition. I can see two things "wrong" with it right off the bat (just based on reading the info on the link you posted). First and foremost, with a price point around $ 430.00....who the heck can afford that? A *very* small percentage of our population. So that right off isn't good. Secondly it says a backless booster up to 100 pounds.....for some parents with vehicles with low or no seat backs and no headrests, I see a potential problem with that. Overall, based on just the reading I did from that link, it sounds interesting (yeah to no plastic shells....alumminum sounds awesome) but I am disappointed yet again that the manufacturers are making a car seat that realistically few can afford.

Dallaschildren
CPS Instructor and momma to 2 sons in seats


----------



## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

I've been following this thread since it started and I still am not sure what the OP's intent is. Are you trying to get us to say that it is ok to not use a car seat? I understand it is hard carrying a car seat around, but as many mothers have said: A lot of things about parenting are hard. Given the option of inconveniencing myself by carrying around a heavy car seat or possibly losing my son in a car accident I'll choose carrying the heavy car seat any day.

I also want to add that just because I own a car and a carseat now does not mean I always have. I _do_ know what it is like to not own a car, I've BTDT.

I guess what it all comes down to is what is important to you, your child's safety or not having to carry around a heavy seat. I'm not sure why you feel the need to justify your choice of not using a car seat, I'm wondering if you are dealing with some surpressed guilt?


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fiercemama*
When car seat use became the law, death of children in car accidents dropped significantly, but only for children aged 0-5. The rates for kids aged 5-9 were unchanged. Shoulder restraints pose a choking/decapitation hazard for kids, as they ride too high for kids in this age range. Tucking the should strap behind and just giving them a lap belt is also not safe. Lap belts are designed to cross over an adult's pelvic girdle, made of bone. On a child, they cross the abdomen and soft internal organs.

In general parents go straight from a car seat and into a vehicle belt. Therein lies the problem. So generally speaking this is around 40 pounds. Vehicles and restraint systems are built for an "average" adult. Hence the recommendation of using a booster seat which "boosts" the child up so that the vehicle seat belts fit the child in the appropriate areas and restrains them across the strongest parts of the body. Some of the reasons you stated above is exactly why stricter booster seat laws are being passed. The rate of booster use is *extremely* low. Booster seats have been shown to reduce injury risk by 59% compared to safety belts alone, for children ages 4 to 8 years.
Some good reads and info:
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/CPS/booster...y/section2.htm
http://www.dot.gov/affairs/dot2406.htm
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/CPS/booster...s_for_kids.htm

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fiercemama*
My own pet peeve - why aren't car manufacturers (airplanes too) required to have a built in jump seat/restraint? They can put a man on the moon, but somehow can't come up with a universal built in design? IMHO, its just one more proof of A) our litigious society (car makers don't want to be liable) and B) kids are second class citizens.

It may in fact be somewhat due to liability, however the main reason is that it would be a nightmare in design if there was one universal integrated seat in every car. A universal car seat that fits every child does not exist. In addition, there isn't a car seat which exists that fits evey car. Our kiddos aren't all the same. Vehicles are too different. Maybe someday, huh?









Dallaschildren
CPS Instructor and momma to 2 sons in seats


----------



## Zach'smom (Nov 5, 2004)

I knew someone that had a mini van with built in carseats. Do any car companies still do that?


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Zach'smom*
I knew someone that had a mini van with built in carseats. Do any car companies still do that?

Yes. There are a few. Volvo is a big proponent of integrated seats. You will find that many of the parents who purchase a car with integrated seats, have a problem with it's fit to their kids.

Dallaschildren
CPS Instructor and momma to 2 sons in seats


----------



## dove (Jun 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren*
Dove,

I have not installed or even seen one of these yet. This seat last I read about it, was a prototype. So it appears it has come to fruition. I can see two things "wrong" with it right off the bat (just based on reading the info on the link you posted). First and foremost, with a price point around $ 430.00....who the heck can afford that? A *very* small percentage of our population. So that right off isn't good. Secondly it says a backless booster up to 100 pounds.....for some parents with vehicles with low or no seat backs and no headrests, I see a potential problem with that. Overall, based on just the reading I did from that link, it sounds interesting (yeah to no plastic shells....alumminum sounds awesome) but I am disappointed yet again that the manufacturers are making a car seat that realistically few can afford.

Dallaschildren
CPS Instructor and momma to 2 sons in seats

thanks for the input, didn't see the price. That is high, but I guess it would depend on how much it was used or whatever (I tend to think of things on a cost-per-use basis over the lifetime of owning a product)...I'm sure someone else will come out with another like it soon and there will be more competitive pricing...


----------



## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PumpkinSeeds*
My dad wants us to come and visit him this has come up as one of the logistical problems for us too. Does that mean I need to buy two carseats for a two to three week trip and then never use them again? Yeah, I hear what you are saying.

You could try craigslist or freecycle. But yes, if you come here and are driving the kids around in cars, you do need to have them in car seats.


----------



## BlueNote (May 19, 2006)

Kind of off topic, but still in the same vein, my oldest child, who is 11, is about 70 pounds. Should he be in a booster seat? He's very small compared to others his age.


----------



## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Please try to stay on topic and take things to PM if you have issues that would be better handled privately. So cool it, folks.


----------



## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CinnamonDeMarco*
Saying, "Okay for you, but people in the states must use car seats, is missing the point. It's hard in the states too.

Then what IS the point?? Just because something is hard doesn't mean it's not worthwhile.

Speaking puely for the US here... Using public transportation you don't need to worry about it - car seats are not required on buses or subways. If you are taking a cab to and from you can bring your seat. BTDT. If you are going with friends you can bring your seat. If they don't have enough room you either find another ride or don't go. BTDT. If you don't have a lot of money there are free car seat programs all over the country, fire and police stations, churches, etc. can usually get you a seat if you tell them you are in need and can not afford one. If you are on vacation there are places that rent seats or will loan them to you.

For many people yes car seats will be a huge PITA to deal with but many of them do it anyways all the time because it's for the safety of their children and therefore they suck it up and deal.

I really don't think saying that makes me insensitive or that I don't understand the issues. I do understand the issues and I have chosen to overcome them in the past and will continue to try to overcome them no matter what life hands me because it's important.

I am thankful that at this point in my life car seats are easy for me - they stay in the car in my garage and I get the kids in and go, but life hasn't always been that way for me.


----------



## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dove*
thanks for the input, didn't see the price. That is high, but I guess it would depend on how much it was used or whatever (I tend to think of things on a cost-per-use basis over the lifetime of owning a product)...I'm sure someone else will come out with another like it soon and there will be more competitive pricing...

When I clicked the Buy Now link, it came up as $179.

I am torn between that seat and this seat (http://carseats.babycatalog.com/infa...at/radian.html), which also folds, because I have a 40-pound 4-year-old who is nowhere near mature enough to sit in a booster and we have a lot of travelling planned this summer.


----------



## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

Why keep questioning the OP's intent in posting? She's explained her intent several times and in several ways. Saying you don't get the point is just another way to undermine her. Since when does a poster's intention have to be crystal clear anyway? I see random thoughts/ideas/opinions on here all the time.


----------



## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HelloKitty*
Then what IS the point?? Just because something is hard doesn't mean it's not worthwhile.

Speaking puely for the US here... Using public transportation you don't need to worry about it - car seats are not required on buses or subways. If you are taking a cab to and from you can bring your seat. BTDT. If you are going with friends you can bring your seat. If they don't have enough room you either find another ride or don't go. BTDT. If you don't have a lot of money there are free car seat programs all over the country, fire and police stations, churches, etc. can usually get you a seat if you tell them you are in need and can not afford one. If you are on vacation there are places that rent seats or will loan them to you.

For many people yes car seats will be a huge PITA to deal with but many of them do it anyways all the time because it's for the safety of their children and therefore they suck it up and deal.

I really don't think saying that makes me insensitive or that I don't understand the issues. I do understand the issues and I have chosen to overcome them in the past and will continue to try to overcome them no matter what life hands me because it's important.

I am thankful that at this point in my life car seats are easy for me - they stay in the car in my garage and I get the kids in and go, but life hasn't always been that way for me.

well said


----------



## SunRayeMomi (Aug 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hhurd*
Why keep questioning the OP's intent in posting? She's explained her intent several times and in several ways. Saying you don't get the point is just another way to undermine her. Since when does a poster's intention have to be crystal clear anyway? I see random thoughts/ideas/opinions on here all the time.

That's a good point


----------



## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hhurd*
Why keep questioning the OP's intent in posting? She's explained her intent several times and in several ways. Saying you don't get the point is just another way to undermine her. Since when does a poster's intention have to be crystal clear anyway? I see random thoughts/ideas/opinions on here all the time.

Speaking purely for myself, she keeps saying we are missing the point so I'm trying to figure out what I'm missing. It's got nothing to do with trying to undermine her at all, I'm trying to understand better what she is after and how we are missing the target.


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BlueNote*
Kind of off topic, but still in the same vein, my oldest child, who is 11, is about 70 pounds. Should he be in a booster seat? He's very small compared to others his age.

Hey Blue Note,

Here is a 5 step test to gauge booster readiness. HTH. http://www.carseat.org/Boosters/630.htm

Dallaschildren
CPS Instructor and momma to 2 sons in seats


----------



## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

I don't know if this will help at all, but over here in Australia we have seperate harnesses that are bolted to the car behind the child. These kind of look like a racing style harness. Normaly with a young child who has outgrown there car seat they are used with a booster, as in this picture- http://www.babiesgalore.com.au/show_...y&categoryid=5 scroll down to see the girl using it.
My dd uses one with her booster. They can also be used without a booster by older kids who still do not fit a regular seat belt properly. Although it would not be recomended for a 1 or 2 year old without a booster, it would still be safer then a regular belt and fits into any car that can take a bolt attachment. Cars over here come with pre done holes, not sure about your cars. Another link from our RACQ, which does overseas orders. https://secure.racq.com.au/ssl/shopV..._categoryno=29


----------



## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pinkmilk*
You're totally right and I do admit my iresponsibility.
We all have things that we feel really passionate about.
Carseat safety is not one of my passions.
Children eating absolutely no sugar to support their immune system function is.
Does this mean I don't use carseats?No. I use them properly everyday except the 4 0r 5 times I've nursed while traveling. I know it's a risk. I just want to say that there are degrees of risk that people take every day. I'm glad there are people with such conviction doing whatever possible to make people like me understand that safety is a priority!
But there are also people like me who can see both sides of the issue and who can offer support to others who don't follow the majority of posters.

One of the first deaths I saw as a volunteer firefighter was a father and son. Mom had pulled the baby out of the carseat in stop and go traffic to nurse. As we were pulling up we were told that air ambulance had been called, I'm looking a car with barely any damage going "WHY??"
While nursing, the car had been rearended--not a bad accident, but bad enough that the baby flew from his mom's arms into the back of his dad's head, instantly killing dad and the baby was dead within the hour.
I'm guessing this mom doesn't spend a lot of her time worrying about sugar consumption and her son's immune system. I'm guessing she'd give ANYTHING to have that 30 seconds back to make another choice--and that's exactly what it was, a choice, nothing more, nothing less. 10 minutes to pull over and stop to do it safely or a lifetime of knowing you killed your kid.


----------



## laylaybabymama (May 2, 2006)

why would you tell mothers on line that you dont use car seats what is the point you arent going to use one so why say tell people that you dont thats go to walmart or target get a real lite puplic trans i can see but when your with friends thats no reason why you cant use a car seat i dont own a car and i have friends who have two three kids and i use my car seat


----------



## EdlynsMom (Aug 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
One of the first deaths I saw as a volunteer firefighter was a father and son. Mom had pulled the baby out of the carseat in stop and go traffic to nurse. As we were pulling up we were told that air ambulance had been called, I'm looking a car with barely any damage going "WHY??"
While nursing, the car had been rearended--not a bad accident, but bad enough that the baby flew from his mom's arms into the back of his dad's head, instantly killing dad and the baby was dead within the hour.
I'm guessing this mom doesn't spend a lot of her time worrying about sugar consumption and her son's immune system. I'm guessing she'd give ANYTHING to have that 30 seconds back to make another choice--and that's exactly what it was, a choice, nothing more, nothing less. 10 minutes to pull over and stop to do it safely or a lifetime of knowing you killed your kid.

After reading this I will never again smile blandly and wave it off when someone suggests getting DD out of her seat "just for a minute" while the car is on.... I know its a pain, but your childs safety is number one. What would you do if the unthinkable happened?


----------



## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pinkmilk*
I have nursed my babies, actually taken them out of their carseat and nursed them while my husband drove. It was long trips and we just didn't want to take an extra hour or two on top of our 10 hour trip. Maybe it's selfish. And dangerous. But I believe that comfort and love and yes sometimes convenience outweighs the risk that an accident will happen in those few minutes...

Though an accident is definitely possible (I didn't use to think so until my DH and DS were in a rear-ender), the thing I worry about most for you is losing your children. Be careful, mama!

A few years ago, I had a friend and she was sitting in the back seat, next to her baby in a bucket seat while her DP drove. Baby started to cry, she took him out and nursed him. A police officer pulled them over after seeing her holding the baby and they both got felony child endangerment, the child was taken away for 2 weeks by Child Protective Services. She had to fight to get him back and the charges were eventually dropped (not sure why but at least it didn't stay on their permanent records) but wow, what a nightmare.

I know you are in Canada and this happened in California, but I suspect there would be similar consequences should you be pulled over...which might be more likely than getting in an accident.

ETA: OOPS, I must have had this window open for a long time because I didn't see all the posts that came after it. I have read them all now.


----------



## MamaTaraX (Oct 5, 2004)

I have read about half of the replies to this thread.
I sat here and wrote out this huge reply explaining my life situation and why I do not always use carseats. I erased it. I realized that in posting it, I would probably get flamed or belittled or whatever. So all I am going to say afterall is that sometimes its hard to imagine someone not doing something like that. I sympathize withthe OP and willg et back to reading replies...

Namaste, Tara


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
10 minutes to pull over and stop to do it safely or a lifetime of knowing you killed your kid.

I see this a lot. Pull over _where_ to do it safely? Another street? A parking lot? Where? I recently (in the US) watched a guy drive out of his lane, for about six blocks - he was almost on the sidewalk - and he never even slowed down. If a car can be hit on the street, then it can be hit when it's pulled over, too (I've seen it happen).

Also, what should a mom do if she's in a vehicle that's being driven by someone else, and she can't pull it over...and the baby needs to nurse?

Can the carseat proponents guarantee me that my child _cannot_ be killed in a crash, so long as he/she is properly secured in a carseat? Does that seat make my child safe?


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Last one... for real... (as I say to my kid all too often)... My post was about exactly what I said it was about, nothing more, nothing less.

I had no idea you post that sig any time you give a "professional" opinion. I was speaking to it as I saw it in the context of this thread.

This still irks me. And no I will not drop it until I say this...you lump me in with those who you say are full of judgement, and you based your ASSumption of me *only* on the way I sign ALL of my responses to car seat questions or concerns; it wasn't what was in my post...just the way I signed it; I tell you that's the way I sign every car seat answer I give and it in no way had anything to do with the OP, you say you "didn't know". Well now you do know. And now you know you were wrong. And you did exactly what you were chastising others for, to me. And it wasn't warranted. And yeah I am still irked.

DC


----------



## Lizzo (Jul 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CinnamonDeMarco*
Even in the states it is hard for some people to use car seats. It's not just an issue for people who live abroad.

The man in who was called irresponsible in the other thread was probably living in the states. Maybe it is very hard for him to use a carseat, just like it is hard for me.

There are people who take public transportaion in the states. I used to live in Philadelphia, which has lots of taxis and the 3rd largest public transportation system in the US. Many people in Philly do not own a car. They use buses and subways with no car seats. There are no seat belts on Philly buses and trains. I was not aware that taxis had car seats available. I doubt they would have 2 toddler car seats available for me to use, if I lived in the states. Imagine if I went to a store on a bus in Philly and then wanted a ride home, or called a taxi to take me home. I'd have no car seats.

I am not looking for anyone to give me permission to not use car seats. I'm not complaining about how some people think car seats must always be used. I am trying to explain why it is hard for me (and others) to use car seats. Maybe some people had never thought about how people like me live.

When I travel to Philly and New york...I don't take carseats. And to me, it's not irresponsible. I drive with a carseat, but on buses,trains,taxies and planes...it's not feasable (for ME). I love my son, I keep hime safe, I am not irresponsible.
I get what you're saying,mama.


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
Can the carseat proponents guarantee me that my child _cannot_ be killed in a crash, so long as he/she is properly secured in a carseat? Does that seat make my child safe?

Of coarse not Stormbride, but I think you know this. I've worked wrecks where the crash damage to the vehicles was pretty slight...minor in most people's opinions. And in both of those cases the children were hospitilized and one died from an ab bleed. Her chest clip was positioned too low and her harness straps weren't tight and the force from the low speed crash was taken across her gut. She died.

Child restraint systems are 71 % effective in reducing deaths for infants in cars.
They are 54 % effective for reducing toddler deaths.
Car seats reduce the need for hospitilization by 69%.

Unintentional Injury is the leading cause of childhood deaths.
MVC account for nearly 42% of all unintentional childhood injury-related deaths from ages 0-14.
In 1998, an average of 7 children PER DAY were killed and 866 PER DAY were injured.
The toal annual cost of MVC deaths and injuries for children ages 0-14 exceeds 36 billion dollars.

Another good read:
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd...006/810568.pdf

If you choose not to use a seat when in a car, then as I said before to the OP, you will be the one to have to live with it if you wreck. If you can deal with the potential consequences, then yes it's your choice as are many other parenting choices. (Although if you don't breastfeed it's highly unlikely a cop will pull you over and ticket you for it.







) The OP doesn't appear to have to ride in a car often, nor own one so her specific situation is a bit different than those who own a car and who transport their kids often. Obviously the more you drive or are in a vehicle, the higher your chances are for wrecking.

I guess what perplexes me about those who choose not to use a seat or while driving take their kids out of their seat, is why they are willing to put their kids life in someone else's hands? A total stranger driving alongside them. The dude making a left at the light. The lady coming out of the grocery store parking lot. The teenager hauling ass to school so he's not late. There are no "accidents". There is always at least one cause. And the majority of MVC are as a result of driver error. Not you necessarily, but someone else. So that is where I am a bit surprised. You may be the best driver in the world, but it won't matter. Not unless you are the only one on the road.

*ETA:* I see a lot of reference to planes, trains, taxis, buses.....there are not universal safety rules for MOST mass transit in MOST states. Flying in a plane (although turbulance is pretty dangerous) and driving a car have two entirely different risk ratios. You can't compare those. I am talking mostly about passenger vehicles.

Dallaschildren
CPS Instructor and momma to 2 sons in seats


----------



## OnTheBrink (Jan 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
I see this a lot. Pull over _where_ to do it safely? Another street? A parking lot? Where? I recently (in the US) watched a guy drive out of his lane, for about six blocks - he was almost on the sidewalk - and he never even slowed down. If a car can be hit on the street, then it can be hit when it's pulled over, too (I've seen it happen).

Also, what should a mom do if she's in a vehicle that's being driven by someone else, and she can't pull it over...and the baby needs to nurse?

Well, we just wait until we can get to a safe place. I don't like to hear my baby cry, but a crying baby is much better than a dead one!


----------



## CinnamonDeMarco (Nov 4, 2005)

I think it's weird that people think riding public transportation with babies is okay, yet riding in a car with no car seats horrible. I think they are both risky. Obviously, I take the risk.

Here is a picture of the kind of safari I ride in. I never thought it was any safer than riding in as car with no car seat. I hope this link works

http://www.speedysbvi.com/safaritours/home.html

ETA: We have safe roads and don't drive really fast. We don't have real highways. No 55 MPH roads. I've never heard of anyone getting hurt on a safari.

I'm not trying to argue. It's just food for thought.

Hello Kitty, I don't know how to explain my intentions for starting this thread to you. Haven't you ever done things that were text-book-wrong, and you wanted to explain why, just so people would understand?

I think it's intersting to learn about other people's lives and the reasons they do things. I used to think, "Car seats must be used PERIOD, those people are ignorant/irresponsible/idiots." until I walked a mile in their shoes. Maybe you will never have to live in the kind of situation I am living in, but I can get you to understand it. You don't have to give me permission to not use a car seat. I am not asking for that. I'm just sharing my story and reasons why I do things.


----------



## Zach'smom (Nov 5, 2004)

Storm Bride said:


> I see this a lot. Pull over _where_ to do it safely? Another street? A parking lot? Where? I recently (in the US) watched a guy drive out of his lane, for about six blocks - he was almost on the sidewalk - and he never even slowed down. If a car can be hit on the street, then it can be hit when it's pulled over, too (I've seen it happen).
> 
> Also, what should a mom do if she's in a vehicle that's being driven by someone else, and she can't pull it over...and the baby needs to nurse?QUOTE]
> 
> ...


----------



## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CinnamonDeMarco*
Hello Kitty, I don't know how to explain my intentions for starting this thread to you. Haven't you ever done things that were text-book-wrong, and you wanted to explain why, just so people would understand?

I'm not sure why you keep calling me out because I'm not the only one that asked but thank you for that explanation and yes I have and that totally makes sense now. Gotcha.

I don't exactly think it's OK not to use child restraint in public transportation but often there is no other option as there is no way to secure a child seat. I wish there was, but there isn't. That safari pic you showed is so totally different then what I had pictured in my head - thank you for that photo!!


----------



## crissei (Oct 17, 2004)

I may be judgemental in saying this but I dont care. To the PP that take their babies out to nurse; It irks the snot out of me that you do this by choice!

One of the scariest things I've dealt with was when my DS was a tiny baby.
He was a preemie and the only time we left the house was to go to his doc. appts. I always sat in the back seat with him because he was on oxygen, apnea monitor and had reflux.
There were a few times that I had to yell to DH to pull over because DS needed help. Sometimes it took a little longer to pull over and I already had DS out of his seat. Those few seconds between having him out of the seat and until we were stopped were HORRIBLE! I was afraid that in those few seconds we would get into an accident.
I had to make the choice between my son BREATHING and him being in his carseat. I can't belive you are using nursing as a valid excuse!


----------



## CinnamonDeMarco (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crissei*
I may be judgemental in saying this but I dont care. To the PP that take their babies out to nurse; It irks the snot out of me that you do this by choice!
I can't belive you are using nursing as a valid excuse!









You said you took the baby out of the car seat because s/he couldn't breathe. That is an understandable reason, and good for you that the car was able to get pulled over. Have you ever considered these other situations, in which taking a baby out of its car seat to nurse is understandable?

What if you are on a greyhound bus?

What if you are on a taxi and you can't afford 45 extra minutes put on the meter?

What if your Dad is driving and he will be late to work and he refuses to stop.

Maybe there is no place to pull over and no free accessable parking (could possibly happen in downtown Philadelphia)

Maybe you could travel with pumped milk, but my son refused bottles.

Maybe you did it in the past without thinking of pulling over, but now regret it.

I started this thread to soften this kind of thinking, "Those people who don't use car seats are #*#*s! PERIOD, end-of-story. I don't want to hear any excuses."

It's irritating to me that this thread has become a place where people come to say they feel "Everyone in the US must always use car seats and there is no excuse so shame on you." Everyone in the US doesn't have the same life you have. They may have circumstances you aren't considering before you get all judgemental. (I hate to use the word judgemental but I couldn't think of another way to say it.)

What if someone said you were wrong to have your baby out of a car seat for 1 second, without understanding why you did it? ETS: I know breathing and breasfeeding are not the same thing, but I hope you get the gist of what I am saying. We all have our reasons. Sometimes parents are really irresponsible but other times there is more to it than that.


----------



## trini (Sep 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CinnamonDeMarco*
You said you took the baby out of the car seat because s/he couldn't breathe. That is an understandable reason, and good for you that the car was able to get pulled over. Have you ever considered these other situations, in which taking a baby out of its car seat to nurse is understandable?

What if you are on a greyhound bus?

What if you are on a taxi and you can't afford 45 extra minutes put on the meter?

What if your Dad is driving and he will be late to work and he refuses to stop.

Maybe there is no place to pull over and no free accessable parking (could possibly happen in downtown Philadelphia)

Maybe you could travel with pumped milk, but my son refused bottles.

Maybe you did it in the past without thinking of pulling over, but now regret it.

I started this thread to soften this kind of thinking, "Those people who don't use car seats are #*#*s! PERIOD, end-of-story. I don't want to hear any excuses."

It's irritating to me that this thread has become a place where people come to say they feel "Everyone in the US must always use car seats and there is no excuse so shame on you." Everyone in the US doesn't have the same life you have. They may have circumstances you aren't considering before you get all judgemental. (I hate to use the word judgemental but I couldn't think of another way to say it.)

What if someone said you were wrong to have your baby out of a car seat for 1 second, without understanding why you did it? ETS: I know breathing and breasfeeding are not the same thing, but I hope you get the gist of what I am saying. We all have our reasons. Sometimes parents are really irresponsible but other times there is more to it than that.









:


----------



## Zach'smom (Nov 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CinnamonDeMarco*
What if you are on a greyhound bus?

What if you are on a taxi and you can't afford 45 extra minutes put on the meter?

What if your Dad is driving and he will be late to work and he refuses to stop.

Maybe there is no place to pull over and no free accessable parking (could possibly happen in downtown Philadelphia).

If you are on a Greyhound bus you are already holding the baby.
Feed the baby before you get the taxi. Lean over baby in the Taxi and feed her. Not easy! But it can be done.
Why am I in the car with my baby while my dad is driving to work?
I wait until I can find parking. I can't get the baby out of the carseat while I am driving anyway. If someone else is driving and I feel my baby can't wait until we get to a safer location I sit in the backseat with her and nurse while she is in the carseat.


----------



## crissei (Oct 17, 2004)

I do get where you are coming from cinnamon.
I agree with alot of what you have said. I belive there are sometimes bad situations that you can't fully comprehend if you are not in it yourself. But I belive that most of the people that choose not to have their child car-seated are not doing it for those reasons. My post was concerning the blaisse (spl?) attitude towards this. I think (if there is any possible way for them, to be) a child should be in a car seat unless it is a life-threatning emergency.


----------



## la mamita (Apr 10, 2005)

***


----------



## CinnamonDeMarco (Nov 4, 2005)

http://www.speedysbvi.com/safaritours/home.html

This is my public transportation. I don't think it would make sense for me to stick with public transportation because traveling by car with no car seats is much more dangerous. They both seem risky to me. That is why I thought it was strange that people think sticking with public transportation is a solution. I guess large buses could be safer.

Even in the states, when you ride a bus to go shopping, or walk to the store you end up with too much stuff to handle on a bus. Even if you could handle it all on a bus then you'd have to walk it all home from the bus stop. After shopping, you would like a ride home in a car, like a taxi. That is one situation where it hard have a car seats with you. It is pretty hard to walk to a store or bus stop with two toddlers and two normal sized toddler car seats. I am definatelty looking into those portable car seats. They seem like a real solution. I thought I would need to get 2 normal sized toddler car seats on that safari in order to have them for the ride home. You see how miserable that would be? I didn't know about those little travel vests until I read about them in this thread.

Also, I already gave an example of a friend who will give me a ride to the beach for her son's birthday party. She has 2 car seats in her car already. My car seats do not fit. This could happen in the states too.

I could just stay home most of the time. I admit that is an option.

There are people in the states that also ride public transportation and taxis. They probably ride on buses on subways, instead of safaris, but the same kind of challenges exsist in the states. How do you get home from the store? What if you have a lot of bags? What if it is raining, or dark, or the bus stops running early? See how tempting it can be to take a ride home? I already tried to explain why having car seats with you at all times is hard. (I'm going to look into those little ones, though) I get the feeling people are saying, "OK for you but in the states it's not okay." I don't undertsand why people think that way. My situation could happen in the states. It does happen.

I feel like I am just repeating myself here. Maybe I've said all I can say.


----------



## trini (Sep 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CinnamonDeMarco*

I feel like I am just repeating myself here. Maybe I've said all I can say.









When I was reading this post I was thinking, "She's already said all this."

Sure can be hard to comunicate on a message board, can't it?


----------



## la mamita (Apr 10, 2005)

***


----------



## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *la mamita*
I can live with him crying out of hunger for 5 minutes until we find a safe place to pull over,

Just wanted to say that lots of times abby are not crying "out of hunger" but because they have a real need for their mother. I am surporsed that someone on an ap message board would not understand this.

Perhaps you should rephrase this to say, I can live with him crying out of a real need for his mother.....


----------



## Ilaria (Jan 14, 2002)

I totally get what the OP is saying and I sympathize with her and her predicament, I'm not sure why it's so hard for some people to understand her 'motives' behind her OP.
Without repeating what has been said, I agree with thismama and hhurd and I find the narrow-minded, judgemental and US-centic posts kind of sad for MDC. It can't be that hard to imagine living a totally different reality than your own...To imply that you are better mother and better person becasue your kids are ALWAYS in carseats is juvenile at best.

For the record, we always use car seats in our car, but we travel extensively and we have never taken them on our trips. Some of you might say it's doable, but you've probably never been to SE Asia because the thought of trekking through Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Malaysia going from tuk tuk to cyclo to banca (and yes, some taxis) dragging to small kids and 2 carseats is laughable. I guess we choose showing our kids the world over driving around the neighborhood safely buckled in.


----------



## la mamita (Apr 10, 2005)

***


----------



## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
Just wanted to say that lots of times abby are not crying "out of hunger" but because they have a real need for their mother. I am surporsed that someone on an ap message board would not understand this.

Perhaps you should rephrase this to say, I can live with him crying out of a real need for his mother.....

Yeah, because a baby crying for five minutes is soooo much worse than a DEAD BABY because mom did something irresponsible. And YES it is IRRESPONSIBLE to take an infant from a properly secured car seat in a car. It has nothing to do with AP. Man.


----------



## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Joannarachel*
Yeah, because a baby crying for five minutes is soooo much worse than a DEAD BABY because mom did something irresponsible. And YES it is IRRESPONSIBLE to take an infant from a properly secured car seat in a car. It has nothing to do with AP. Man.

its all about weighing the risks...

I for one usually choose to meet an immediate emotional need as opposed to ignoring the need in favor of possible physical harm.

bye.


----------



## hotmamacita (Sep 25, 2002)

Only read your first post and I hear ya' Cinnamom.









Life in the city is just different and when I am in NY I don't use carseats. I trust the taxi, bus and train drivers there more than I do suburban drivers, KWIM?

I don't find anything wrong with your instinctual approach. Your heart is best for your children, mama.


----------



## la mamita (Apr 10, 2005)

***


----------



## mama_b (Dec 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
its all about weighing the risks...

I for one usually choose to meet an immediate emotional need as opposed to ignoring the need in favor of possible physical harm.

bye.

I agree.


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Regarding transporting children via mass transit...let's take a bus as an example: Wanted to throw this info out there since mass transit seems to be one the topics here:

As for buses...this is a whole other enchilada....an abridged explaination is that buses are the SAFEST form of ground transportation. Why? Buses are larger and heavier than most vehicles, crash forces are distributed differently (evenly), the occupants experience these forces differently, they are statistically the lowest "risk" mode of travel, and they (school buses especially) are conspicuous as hell.
In additon, buses are designed with the theory of "compartmentalization" which combines energy absorbing seat backs, and narrow spacing between occupants which offers a "compartment" size space for the occupant. It provides passive protection. Think of an egg in a carton.

Dallaschildren
CPS Instructor and momma to 2 sons in seats


----------



## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
Just wanted to say that lots of times abby are not crying "out of hunger" but because they have a real need for their mother. I am surporsed that someone on an ap message board would not understand this.

Perhaps you should rephrase this to say, I can live with him crying out of a real need for his mother.....

So....just where is it that picking out tiny white baby coffins falls on the AP spectrum?? I've always sort of thought the whole point of attachment parenting was that in 20 or so years you can deliver a healthy well adjusted adult into the "real world". A corpse never grows up, but maybe that's ok for some...I'm just not one of them.


----------



## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shiloh*
I have two portable car seats its just the backs and has a five point strap on it, it was designed for taxis, limos etc. They rock I can fit two in my diaper bag. I use a lot of public transportation the sit and stroll is also great for airports its a stroller and car seat combo.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Tote-n-Go-Portab...QQcmdZViewItem

This thing is brilliant. I wish I'd had it back when I was carless and was putting carseats in and out of taxis.


----------



## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
its all about weighing the risks...

I for one usually choose to meet an immediate emotional need as opposed to ignoring the need in favor of possible physical harm.

bye.

Considering how dangerous it is to have a baby in a car who's not in a car seat is, that seems very foolish.


----------



## dove (Jun 13, 2005)

Honestly, this thread is making me feel ill.

OP, I *DO* get your point, I really do, but for almost every scenario you have thrown out there (and every scenario that others have thrown out there), I can think of a *safer* way (maybe not that "Americanized ideal" you seem to loathe, but a SAFER way) to treat my child than just "oh, take 'em outta the carseat" or "oh, they'll be just fine on my lap". Even if the answer is _some sort_ of portable safety device to keep the kids safer, I would do it. If that even included me wearing a harness myself with d-ring attatchments to the harness dc was wearing, I would do it. There are products out there that are not that expensive (and I am far from rich, used to live in the city, did not have a car, used public transport, the whole nine yards, so don't go there with me) and are safe. Do your homework.
Just seems like child safety is coming dead last here and that convenience, time, and money, and ap parenting ideals (???) are coming out the winner. I just don't get it. I for one, do a lot of travel, and it is funny you keep mentioning Philly. I schlep carseats there (philly and other places I visit), use a special harness on the train and bus, install carseats in taxis (it only takes me about 2 mins, tops), install carseats in friends/family/rental/airport shuttles/cars, you name it... that is where I am from and travel to the most, so I can picture the scenarios you are describing and I just keep thinking "hey, girl, suck it up in the name of child safety". I think that if you really, truly cannot afford a couple extra minutes on the meter, then why should your kids suffer? My patience and empathy is wearing thin. Good luck with your future travels.


----------



## dove (Jun 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CinnamonDeMarco*
There are people in the states that also ride public transportation and taxis. They probably ride on buses on subways, instead of safaris, but the same kind of challenges exsist in the states. How do you get home from the store? What if you have a lot of bags? What if it is raining, or dark, or the bus stops running early? See how tempting it can be to take a ride home? I already tried to explain why having car seats with you at all times is hard. (I'm going to look into those little ones, though) I get the feeling people are saying, "OK for you but in the states it's not okay." I don't undertsand why people think that way. My situation could happen in the states. It does happen.

I feel like I am just repeating myself here. Maybe I've said all I can say.

And I'm sure situations like this happen all of the time. It is primarily a result of poor planning and not thinking through the situation with the child in mind.
Tempting to take a ride home, sure. Sucks to be wet, dark, waiting, etc. Dead child? No thanks. I'll plan it out to know that my child will get home safe. Check the bus schedules, find alternate routes, alternate transporatation, start walking, have an emergency back up plan, etc, etc....planning, planning, planning!!!


----------



## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
its all about weighing the risks...

I for one usually choose to meet an immediate emotional need as opposed to ignoring the need in favor of possible physical harm.

bye.

Thank God the cops I know pull over, ticket people like you and call children's services


----------



## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

d/p


----------



## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

I think some good planning might be to ask on Freecycle for a bicycle and a bike trailer to pull behind it, perhaps even a bike seat for a third child or to leave more room for groceries. You can add a bike rack with saddle bags and a basket in front to hold the groceries. And a backpack to carry a little bit more. Perhaps grocery delivery for a small fee would be preferable to going out at all.

There have got to be other alternatives much of the time.


----------



## kyangel80 (Oct 5, 2005)

WOW!! That was really something else to read. I'm all over the board on this one. I think that the OP was trying to express her point of view and then hear responses to that. But, as always, there are people who don't get that at first read and then there are people who are always eager to plead their case about the neccessity of carseat use no matter what. I'm sure the OP is not suprised at some of the responses she got, if she's done any reading around here, she was probably a little prepared. I always say "what if". I know of someone who drove home with their sleeping baby in their arms b/c they didn't want to wake her. It was a 10 min drive and I could never understand that the benefit of holding outweighed the risk? I always say "what if I don't buckle my toddler and it's the one time we get in an accident and I'll never forgive myself". I should be saying "what if I do buckle my toddler and we get in an accident and I never forgive myself b/c the installation was shotty?". I think there were alot of good responses that will provoke thought and that's always good. The OP offered a "point of view" and other's, in turn, offered a different "point of view". That's the whole idea here isn't it. I do think that the "tone" of alot of the responders was judgmental. But that may be because I am very sensitive and take suggestion well. I absolutely don't need someone to get a dig in to make a point. As an online community, it is difficult to know those things about individuals and therefore we get threads like this one sometimes. Good luck to the OP.


----------



## Ilaria (Jan 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Joannarachel*
Thank God the cops I know pull over, ticket people like you and call children's services









CPS? You wish that upon the PP? Yowsa. The smiley face sure does make your mean-spirited comment that much better. Nice touch.


----------



## Ilaria (Jan 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiverSky*
ask on Freecycle for a bicycle and a bike trailer to pull behind it, perhaps even a bike seat for a third child or to leave more room for groceries. You can add a bike rack with saddle bags and a basket in front to hold the groceries. And a backpack to carry a little bit more.

There have got to be other alternatives much of the time.









Do they have Freecycle in the VI?
Are roads good enough and safe enough for a bike with a trailer? Here in SE Asia, for example, it would be impossible due to road conditions, pollution and the way people drive. Just trying to picture it, I shudder. It would certainly be much more dangerous than riding in a taxi without a carseat.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren*
OfI guess what perplexes me about those who choose not to use a seat or while driving take their kids out of their seat, is why they are willing to put their kids life in someone else's hands? A total stranger driving alongside them. The dude making a left at the light. The lady coming out of the grocery store parking lot. The teenager hauling ass to school so he's not late. There are no "accidents". There is always at least one cause. And the majority of MVC are as a result of driver error. Not you necessarily, but someone else. So that is where I am a bit surprised. You may be the best driver in the world, but it won't matter. Not unless you are the only one on the road.

Maybe it's because I'm fully aware that I'm putting my kid's lives in someone else's hands every time I leave the house. The closest ds1 ever came to getting killed was when he and I were crossing a street, on the walk light, after checking traffic both ways (all four ways, actually...we also checked the parallel street for people turning), etc. Some guy in a pick-up came whipping up the street parallel to us at about twice the speed limit and whipped into the crosswalk without signalling...he almost ran us both down. So...ds1 spent quite a few miserable hours strapped into a child torture (sorry - I meant safety) device for no reason (as we never had even a minor accident), and was almost killed crossing the street less than a block from his home. I'm well aware that someone could hit me anytime I take the car out. That's one of the reasons I don't drive very much...but I only feel somewhat safer walking. (There were two pedestrians killed about a month apart on a stretch of road only a mile from the last home I lived in.)

The issue I have with this whole topic is that it's like the _only_ thing that counts is the possibility of a car accident...ignoring your child's cries doesn't matter (on the cosleep forum, there's all kinds of information about how bad it is for a child's brain to CIO - does anybody really think a baby knows the difference between a carseat and a crib??)...ending up trekking home from the store in the pissing rain (unexpected rain is not uncommon around here) with a toddler doesn't matter...making a small child walk home when something took longer than expected, even when the child is exhausted doesn't matter...all that matters is the _possibility_ that you _might_ be in an accident.

Car seat advocates say that not using a carseat is irresponsible parenting. I could just as easily say that any parent who ever takes their child out of the house for anything that isn't urgent is irresponsible. The only way to make _sure_ your child is safe from being in a car accident is to keep them out of a car...and they can't get run down in a crosswalk if they never leave the house. Why is it okay to put your child in a deathtrap so they can go to the park (because you think the park is good for them), but it's not okay to increase the risk (take them out of a car seat) so that they can eat when they're hungry (because you don't think they should CIO)? Why is it up to you, or the police, or anybody but me, to decide which risks are acceptable, and which ones aren't?

As I've said before on the topic, nobody needs to worry about my kids. I dutifully strap them into their respective torture devices whenever we get in the deathtrap for an errand. I've given them vaccinations, too...except I skipped a couple. Is that an acceptable risk? I wonder how I'd live with myself if ds2 caught something that I didn't vax for, and died of complications...there are a lot of people who'd call me irresponsible for that, too. All I can do is get what information I can, and make the best decision I can make...and hope no well-meaning individuals foist child services on me when they think I'm irresponsible.


----------



## Getz (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *numom499*
its all about weighing the risks...

I for one usually choose to meet an immediate emotional need as opposed to ignoring the need in favor of possible physical harm.

bye.

Sigh.

I didn't even see the old lady driving the wrong direction in my lane until the giant SUV in front of me pulled to the shoulder, and there were two headlights coming right for me. BAM! Head on collision and there was NOTHING I could have done about it. (I did manage to serve so most of the force was directed towards the side of the car, so it could have been worse)

THANK GOD, my two yr old nephew was properly restrained in the back seat and received only minor injuries. I had nightmares for weeks that we were hit and he went flying into the windshield.

Maybe your babies flying into the windshield is an acceptable risk for you, but it isn't for me. No way. You NEVER know when that crazy lady will be driving in your lane. It was mere seconds from me seeing her until she hit me.

I realize that being in the city and taking public transportation is totally different than passenger car travel. I just feel very strongly about properly restraining children in private passenger cars, chances are an accident won't happen, but I am not willing to take that chance.


----------



## Ilaria (Jan 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
Car seat advocates say that not using a carseat is irresponsible parenting. I could just as easily say that any parent who ever takes their child out of the house for anything that isn't urgent is irresponsible. The only way to make _sure_ your child is safe from being in a car accident is to keep them out of a car...and they can't get run down in a crosswalk if they never leave the house. Why is it okay to put your child in a deathtrap so they can go to the park (because you think the park is good for them), but it's not okay to increase the risk (take them out of a car seat) so that they can eat when they're hungry (because you don't think they should CIO)? Why is it up to you, or the police, or anybody but me, to decide which risks are acceptable, and which ones aren't?

As I've said before on the topic, nobody needs to worry about my kids. I dutifully strap them into their respective torture devices whenever we get in the deathtrap for an errand. I've given them vaccinations, too...except I skipped a couple. Is that an acceptable risk? I wonder how I'd live with myself if ds2 caught something that I didn't vax for, and died of complications...there are a lot of people who'd call me irresponsible for that, too. All I can do is get what information I can, and make the best decision I can make...and hope no well-meaning individuals foist child services on me when they think I'm irresponsible.

Amen!!

(...or if your child died as a result of the vaccines)


----------



## Ambrose (Apr 20, 2004)

We dont have a car and we live in the USA.

We take public trasportation (the bus) and there are no seatbelts there to even strap a car seat into.

Sometimes we take taxi's. And we dont use car seats there either, because with a toddler in a grocery store, lugging around a HUGE carseat in the 2nd shopping cart while doing shopping is a little unfeasable. (We tried it it's too much of a headache) Our taxi service does not provide free car seats during a trip. They don't offer any at all. Hence why lugging the one we have around the store is a headache.

We DO use the carseat when we are with neighbors driving us and such.

But OP, I do completely understand where you are coming from, and I think others have to live it before they can even try to understand it.


----------



## soygurl (Jan 28, 2006)

*OT warning*: I'm posing this instead of PMing *dallaschildren* because I thought it might be helpful info for people reading this thread who might be interested in the seat *dove* posted.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dove*
I just recently saw a carseat that folds up and into a briefcase that is just a little bigger than a computer bag. check it out:
http://www.safeguardseat.com/go/index.htm
looks like it works for 30 pounds to 100 pounds. Hope this helps someone. It is made by a very reputable company. (Dallaschildren, what do you know about this??? I might look into getting one, as I take trips often, and yes, it is a huge pain to schlep a carseat, but you just do it, ya know?)

Dove,

I have not installed or even seen one of these yet. This seat last I read about it, was a prototype. So it appears it has come to fruition. I can see two things "wrong" with it right off the bat (just based on reading the info on the link you posted). First and foremost, with a price point around $ 430.00....who the heck can afford that? A *very* small percentage of our population. So that right off isn't good. Secondly it says a backless booster up to 100 pounds.....for some parents with vehicles with low or no seat backs and no headrests, I see a potential problem with that. Overall, based on just the reading I did from that link, it sounds interesting (yeah to no plastic shells....alumminum sounds awesome) but I am disappointed yet again that the manufacturers are making a car seat that realistically few can afford.

Dallaschildren
CPS Instructor and momma to 2 sons in seats

Hey dallaschildren, you might have (probably have) already read the SafeGuard page in more detail by now and already know everything I'm about to say, but just incase you haven't had time or something here goes:
The Safeguard Child Seat is the one that is $430. It is a forward facing only harnessed car seat that is for 22-65 lbs. The seat that dove posted is the SafeGuard Go Booster. It is a combination seat that harnesses from 30-60 lbs and works as backless booster from 40-80 lbs. The Go booster is only $180 and it is the seat that folds up into a handy tavel bag. You are right though that this seat has several posible drawbacks. First, as you already mentioned, a backless booster isn't appopriate for all vehicles/children. Also, while in harness mode, this seat MUST be teathered, and (partialy because of the teather issue) is not FAA approved. Finaly, something that just bothers me about the seat is how they advertize people can/should still use LATCH anchors while the seat is in BOOSTER mode which (as you know) can't be done with ANY other booster seat (that I'm aware of anyway). Now, I don't doubt that they SafeGuard makes have tested this for safety, I don't like how this promotes something that is unsafe with all other booster seats, and is already something that quite a few parents mistakely think is ok to do. I guess the SafeGuard people have every right to do this, but it still bothers me.
Like I said, you probably already figured out all of this, but I wanted to mention it in case you don't yet, and so other people might have a little more info on the SafeGuard seats. If you have any info for me, or want to discus this feel free to PM me if it isn't relevent to this thread.

I apppologize again, to anyone not at all interested in what I posted, for the thread hijacking. It won't happen again

~Kelsie


----------



## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
The issue I have with this whole topic is that it's like the _only_ thing that counts is the possibility of a car accident...ignoring your child's cries doesn't matter (on the cosleep forum, there's all kinds of information about how bad it is for a child's brain to CIO - does anybody really think a baby knows the difference between a carseat and a crib??)...ending up trekking home from the store in the pissing rain (unexpected rain is not uncommon around here) with a toddler doesn't matter...making a small child walk home when something took longer than expected, even when the child is exhausted doesn't matter...all that matters is the _possibility_ that you _might_ be in an accident.

I haven't seen anyone either say or imply any of the above. And I also haven't seen anyone say that they'd just continue to drive, leaving their babies to cry without being attended to in some way until they could get to a safe place to stop. Really, this is just hyperbole.

As is this:

Quote:

I dutifully strap them into their respective *torture devices* whenever we get in the deathtrap for an errand.
As far as I can tell, my son has never been tortured by a carseat. It actually seems to be pretty comfortable for him.

IMO, it's all about mitigating risk where you can. We have to cross the street sometimes because spending our entire lives on one block isn't a possibility. We have to leave the house sometimes or we'd starve and probably go insane. Do I have to put my child in a car unsecured? Nope. Do I have to take him out of his seat while the car is still moving? Nope. In my experience, there has always been another reasonable option available.


----------



## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Well, I still do not find the issue to be black or white. I do think that using a carseat reduces risk. Greatly. So does never leaving the house or putting your child in a bubble. Soemtimes you just have to weigh the options and pick what level of risk you are comfortable with based on what experiences you want for your child. There are a lot of things "I couldn't live with". We do not vaccinate. If dd dies of a vaccine prventable disease, I will not be able to live with myself. We homebirthed. If she died or was damaged due to not being at the hospital, I could not live with myself. We are unschooling. If dd grows up to be non-functional and blames it on the lack of schooling, I will not be able to live with myself. I got REALLY drunk once while pg but before I knew I was pg, if dd was born with alcohol related complications, I would not be able to live with myself. So if we want to travel to a place where we use public transportation, even *gasp* taxis, I am not going to stay in my hotel room fretting about what might happen. I believe in grasping life and that means taking a few risks. When it is feasible and practical, we use carseats. In fact dd has never been in a moving vehicle sans carseat. We even rigged up a carseat in a parade vehicle so she could ride when she was tiny. But I am not going to sit back and wag my finger at people when I have no idea what their life is like or what factors into their decisions.

I find it sort of funny that we are all sitting around tsk tsking people who have some unique problems that require going carseatless occasionally but we applaud those who drive Geo Metros and other older small cars that get great gas mileage. I do not have any statistics but I am willing to bet than travelling carseatless in a HUGE taxi going at 25 mph in the city is safer than driving with a carseat in cars that crush into a ball of aluminum if crashing while going 55 moh on the highway. We scroff at people that drive gas guzzlers, but statistically they are "safer" in crashes than smaller, fuel efficiant cars. So now do we demonize those that care about the environment or those that cannot afford the newest and safest vehicles? Or maybe we start going after people that drive more. Statistically, they are putting thier kids at much great danger than those of us that only go a few miles a day. Can you live with yourself? What about people that live in wood houses versus brick? Or everyone that puts their kids at great risk by living in known earthquake areas? Volcanoes anyone? Where do we draw the line?

AND for everyone saying that it is safer to lean over your kid and dangle a breast to avoid taking the child out of the carseat, this is very dangerous too. And not just for you but the baby as well. However, I have done it. I have done it because we were on a 16 hour trip and dd wanted to nurse constantly. We were not going to get where we needed to go had I not. She would not take a bottle. So I weighed the risks and what needed to happen and made a decision. I could have let her scream for hours at a time. She would ahve been "safer". But I decided her emotional health was more important than the increased risk of me leaning over her. Had I squished her, I would not be able to live with myself but that is part of life.


----------



## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*

IMO, it's all about mitigating risk where you can. We have to cross the street sometimes because spending our entire lives on one block isn't a possibility. We have to leave the house sometimes or we'd starve and probably go insane. Do I have to put my child in a car unsecured? Nope. Do I have to take him out of his seat while the car is still moving? Nope. In my experience, there has always been another reasonable option available.

To you. You draw the line of "reasonable" risk at a different spot than someone else might. You could order groceries over the internet to avoid crossing the street. You could hire a sitter every time you needed to go across the street. You could grow all of your own food on your property. You could hire a helecopter to take you over the street. That all seems pretty unreasonable doesn't it. To some people, lugging two toddlers, two carseats, groceries, diaper bag, umbrella, and a purse to get some food is unreasonable. And frankly I do not blame them.


----------



## Ilaria (Jan 14, 2002)

Thank you Yooper. Such wisdom.


----------



## la mamita (Apr 10, 2005)

***


----------



## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

I do believe in my choices. That deos not mean I would not play "what if" if something awful were to happen. I am thinking that is pretty normal. Most people would wish they could throw their convictions to the wind if it would have prevented a tragedy, even if the tragedy was a fluke. Not sure what you are getting at. Just because I believe that not vaccinating is safer for us does not mean that I believe dd can never get a vaccine-"preventable" disease. I would "not be able to live with myself" either way. Damned if you do........


----------



## Christine&men (Jun 4, 2005)

My BIL was in a left turning lane and the only vehicle from the opposite directin was in a left turning lane with the directional sign saying that it was the intention to turn left. Now, two vehicles turning left would normally not touch each other, would they? But that idiot decided to go straight (from the left turning lane) and hit BIL's car at the right end. My niece was in her car seat, she was fine. *Conclusion*: no matter how careful we drive, one never knows what idiots are out there!

My French in-laws don't put their kids in car seats every time they drive. Hell, they put so many passengers in one tiny car, I am sure it is forbidden (as in 7-8 people in one small car, majority of people were kids). My French in-laws don't always buckle up if they are in the backseat... HOWEVER, I have two friends here in the US who don't buckle up unless I cheerfully chirp: Buckle up, it's the law. Click it or ticket. *Conclusion*: you never know who does what, generalization is impossible.

Having said that: For *ME*, I have made the observation that in so many car-accidents it's the innocent by-stander/other car-driver who gets killed and the accident causing driver gets away with minor scrapes. For *ME* (and I only speak for me) riding without a car-seat is something I can't even think of (unless it's a dire emergency, so, I do make exceptions, however, Britney Spears is not excused, riding with her baby between herself and the steering wheel and then again, having the car seat improperly insttalled).


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

I teach and help those who *want* help. People in ALL situations. I take your situation as personally as if it were my own. I will treat your child as if they were my own. I answer questions and give my perspective based on personal and professional experience. I don't waste my time on those who think they know it all, those who try to twist crash statistics to suit and justify their own agendas or misguided beliefs, and those who believe car seat use in general, is a waste of time. I don't force anyone to do anything. Yeah, we've all heard it before. Your choice. Your child. Your body. Whatever. If you think not using a seat isn't a risk you're too worried about...go for it. I mean really. You don't need my permission, but don't expect to get my approval.
Personally I have been in 3 wrecks. Found not at fault in all 3. Still injured, still had to deal with all of the issues surrounding them; so it didn't matter much who was at fault in the end. Professionally I have seen what non-use or poor restraint use has done to our kids. It is graphic. It is bloody. It is the most horrible thing one can witness. I still mourn the babies who won't get the chance to be all they were suppose to be and all they had the right to be. And for those who want help, I will always be there. And I will continue to fight for all kids and for those parents or caregivers that need and want help. A car seat, advice, installation, help, a shoulder, an ear. Always. And I will never apologize for it or feel judgmental in doing so. Never.

DC


----------



## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

Quote:

To some people, lugging two toddlers, two carseats, groceries, diaper bag, umbrella, and a purse to get some food is unreasonable.
Yes, that would be quite difficult. However, there are lots of other options. There are those travel harness/ vests, I have seen booster seats which fold. There is this convertible carseat which "folds to only 6 1/2 inches"
http://www.healthchecksystems.com/radian_car_seats.htm. (sorry, don't know if anyone posted that before) You can even get a carrying case for it. If I didn't have a car, and had to frequently ride in taxis or get rides from friends or even if we ever travel, I will invest in something like that and use it. There are also many other options There are wagons and strollers and grocery carts and backpacks and other things that help us carry stuff. There are devices you can use to put a carseat on your back. All it takes is a little creative thinking, a little searching around, etc.

I live on an island..it is in the US..just a little touristy, island accessable by ferry off New England. During the winter, there are about 900 residents and it is quiet. I see many parents with children improperly restrained in the car. Young kids (under 10) riding in the front seat, toddlers not in carseats, babies improperly restrained in infant seats (I have see one baby with just the harness clip fastened, the parts which clip into the buckle between the legs was undone). I see people give other young toddlers and childrne rides without bothering to change carseats. People think because it is an island and there isn't much traffic, it is safe. Lots of people use that excuse. Traffic has nothing to do with it. A deer could run infront of you, the car could malfunction, the driver could have a heart attack or a seizure. People always use the excuse that it is okay to not use carseats if there isn't much traffic..but not all accidents are caused by cars hitting other cars. Sometimes, it is caused by an animal or car malfunction or driver illness, etc., etc.


----------



## numom499 (Jun 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Joannarachel*
Thank God the cops I know pull over, ticket people like you and call children's services









Lol...This is hysterical. I think the op has a point. And I think you just don't get it. Thank God I know what it means to meet my children's needs.


----------



## la mamita (Apr 10, 2005)

***


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soygurl*
*OT warning*: I'm posing this instead of PMing *dallaschildren* because I thought it might be helpful info for people reading this thread who might be interested in the seat *dove* posted.

Hey dallaschildren, you might have (probably have) already read the SafeGuard page in more detail by now and already know everything I'm about to say, but just incase you haven't had time or something here goes:
The Safeguard Child Seat is the one that is $430. It is a forward facing only harnessed car seat that is for 22-65 lbs. The seat that dove posted is the SafeGuard Go Booster. It is a combination seat that harnesses from 30-60 lbs and works as backless booster from 40-80 lbs. The Go booster is only $180 and it is the seat that folds up into a handy tavel bag. You are right though that this seat has several posible drawbacks. First, as you already mentioned, a backless booster isn't appopriate for all vehicles/children. Also, while in harness mode, this seat MUST be teathered, and (partialy because of the teather issue) is not FAA approved. Finaly, something that just bothers me about the seat is how they advertize people can/should still use LATCH anchors while the seat is in BOOSTER mode which (as you know) can't be done with ANY other booster seat (that I'm aware of anyway). Now, I don't doubt that they SafeGuard makes have tested this for safety, I don't like how this promotes something that is unsafe with all other booster seats, and is already something that quite a few parents mistakely think is ok to do. I guess the SafeGuard people have every right to do this, but it still bothers me.
Like I said, you probably already figured out all of this, but I wanted to mention it in case you don't yet, and so other people might have a little more info on the SafeGuard seats. If you have any info for me, or want to discus this feel free to PM me if it isn't relevent to this thread.

I apppologize again, to anyone not at all interested in what I posted, for the thread hijacking. It won't happen again

~Kelsie

Thank you for your input Kelsie.

DC


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Child passenger safety for ME, is about advocating for YOU and your CHILD. It's *not* about judging you. It's about real life crash statistics. Just as some advocate extended breastfeeding, and it's benefits based on evidence, or not vaccinating based on evidence, this issue is about advocating for our kids and their health and well being based on statistical fact. Nothing more, nothing less.

DC


----------



## la mamita (Apr 10, 2005)

***


----------



## pinkmilk (Nov 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *la mamita*
How can you honestly weigh the risks of crying in a carseat to be more detrimental than possible death by not being in a carseat? Do you really believe that a kid who has CIO'd in a carseat is more damaged than a kid who is dead or permanently paralyzed from a crash while not in a carseat?

ETA: this is in reference to the situation--your kid is crying in the carseat and you can't pull over immediately. do you 1. take the kid out of the carseat to nurse in traffic or 2. wait until you can find a safe place to pull over?

personally for me, when we were travelling the open highway in the night, with a baby who did view her carseat as a torturing device, it was the choice that dh and i made for me to hold her, calm her and nurse her. We believe her crying and her need to be held was more important than letting her cio in her seat for hours on end. And yes we did stop many times. And no i never took or have taken her out of her seat in the city, in traffic, or otherwise.
No..i never leaned over her seat with my boob in her mouth...how could that be any safer...in the remote chance you were in an accident at that very moment the weight on your body would smush your little one anyway!! But if people want to do this and feel better about themselves then go ahead...just try to refrain from judging others that make different choices that aren't always the safest choices.

Yes the better choice is always finding a safe place to pull over. But we all know that. We make choices everday that don't always fit in to what others think our choices should be. Everyone should be able to understand this.


----------



## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I can think of one very good reason to never use a carseat for your baby. If you never take your baby in a moving vehicle, you'll have no need for a carseat. That's the ONLY valid reason I can think of!


----------



## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CinnamonDeMarco*
Not everybody thinks "Babies must be in car seats PERIOD", but I'm sure some do. It is because they didn't consider other people's lifestyles (for lack of a better word) I said "I used to think that way." I don't think that is offensive.

ETA: On the thread about irresponsible parents someone posted about a Dad comming out of a taxi holding a baby in no car seat. That was how he was irresponsible. I thought, "That could have been me comming out of a taxi with no carseat." That is why I started this thread.

In most states it's illegal to even ride in a cab without a carseat for your child and the cab driver won't let you do it. There are vests and harnesses that work as carseats that fit into your diaper bag BTW. So if you are coming to the states you will need to have some sort of carseat or safety vest if you plan to ride in cars or trucks. The only place they aren't needed are on busses.


----------



## mama_b (Dec 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
Maybe it's because I'm fully aware that I'm putting my kid's lives in someone else's hands every time I leave the house. The closest ds1 ever came to getting killed was when he and I were crossing a street, on the walk light, after checking traffic both ways (all four ways, actually...we also checked the parallel street for people turning), etc. Some guy in a pick-up came whipping up the street parallel to us at about twice the speed limit and whipped into the crosswalk without signalling...he almost ran us both down. So...ds1 spent quite a few miserable hours strapped into a child torture (sorry - I meant safety) device for no reason (as we never had even a minor accident), and was almost killed crossing the street less than a block from his home. I'm well aware that someone could hit me anytime I take the car out. That's one of the reasons I don't drive very much...but I only feel somewhat safer walking. (There were two pedestrians killed about a month apart on a stretch of road only a mile from the last home I lived in.)

That sucks. I'm glad you were both okay.

Quote:

The issue I have with this whole topic is that it's like the _only_ thing that counts is the possibility of a car accident...ignoring your child's cries doesn't matter (on the cosleep forum, there's all kinds of information about how bad it is for a child's brain to CIO - does anybody really think a baby knows the difference between a carseat and a crib??)...ending up trekking home from the store in the pissing rain (unexpected rain is not uncommon around here) with a toddler doesn't matter...making a small child walk home when something took longer than expected, even when the child is exhausted doesn't matter...all that matters is the _possibility_ that you _might_ be in an accident.

Car seat advocates say that not using a carseat is irresponsible parenting. I could just as easily say that any parent who ever takes their child out of the house for anything that isn't urgent is irresponsible. The only way to make _sure_ your child is safe from being in a car accident is to keep them out of a car...and they can't get run down in a crosswalk if they never leave the house. Why is it okay to put your child in a deathtrap so they can go to the park (because you think the park is good for them), but it's not okay to increase the risk (take them out of a car seat) so that they can eat when they're hungry (because you don't think they should CIO)? Why is it up to you, or the police, or anybody but me, to decide which risks are acceptable, and which ones aren't?

As I've said before on the topic, nobody needs to worry about my kids. I dutifully strap them into their respective torture devices whenever we get in the deathtrap for an errand. I've given them vaccinations, too...except I skipped a couple. Is that an acceptable risk? I wonder how I'd live with myself if ds2 caught something that I didn't vax for, and died of complications...there are a lot of people who'd call me irresponsible for that, too. All I can do is get what information I can, and make the best decision I can make...and hope no well-meaning individuals foist child services on me when they think I'm irresponsible.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for saying this! This is exactly how I feel on this topic, but I have a hard time putting it into words.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

ITA with whoever you just quoted, mama b.


----------



## AnneNic (Sep 13, 2005)

We have our own vehicles and always use car seats.

I also know that the taxi companies around here are required to make sure that all children use carseats ~ if you don't have a seat you can call to request a pickup with one that has a carseat.

Busses here don't have seat belts, so there is no use for a carseat.

I think it's interesting how different each state in the US is when it comes to carseat requirements and enforcement of the law.

Andrea


----------



## Clarinet (Nov 3, 2005)

I wonder if being in a car accident before and even without our children makes some of us more wary about it than others. I've been in a pretty awful car accident (before I had kids) and our seatbelts saved us. So the only choice for me, EVER, is to strap my kids in the car.

On the other hand, I suppose you have to work with what you have and if you don't have a carseat, then you have to deal with that. I'm lost about the reasoning behind the original post. It seemed like a confession and then, "stop judging me about it" and "what can I do" and "just listen to me."

I don't know if the OP is still reading along, but have you decided to try to get two of the travel car-seat contraptions that have been mentioned?


----------



## la mamita (Apr 10, 2005)

***


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
I haven't seen anyone either say or imply any of the above. And I also haven't seen anyone say that they'd just continue to drive, leaving their babies to cry without being attended to in some way until they could get to a safe place to stop. Really, this is just hyperbole.

Not exactly, no. But, I did ask about pulling over and someone replied that they'd obviously drive until it was safe to pull over. I drove from Seattle back to Vancouver in March....there was one stretch where the only way I could have pulled over safely was to take an exit...in an area I didn't know, late at night. It was about an hour and half or so between rest areas. Pulling over to the shoulder isn't acceptable to me, as I don't think that's safe, either. So...what do you do? (Fortunately, my kids slept the whole way.)

Quote:

As far as I can tell, my son has never been tortured by a carseat. It actually seems to be pretty comfortable for him.
Nice for you. DS1, on those occasions when we used one (I didn't have a car, or drive, so he was only in one rarely), hated it with a passion. DD has only started putting up with hers in the last six months or so - she just turned three. She absolutely hated the thing before that.

Quote:

IMO, it's all about mitigating risk where you can. We have to cross the street sometimes because spending our entire lives on one block isn't a possibility. We have to leave the house sometimes or *we'd starve and probably go insane*. Do I have to put my child in a car unsecured? Nope. Do I have to take him out of his seat while the car is still moving? Nope. In my experience, there has always been another reasonable option available.
That's your experience. At least once, there was no other reasonable option available to me. We were on a shuttle (it was a large van/small bus) from Nashville to Knoxville, and the driver was on his timetable, not ours. I couldn't pull over, because I wasn't driving. So...dd had to be be fed, or she'd have gone hungry for two hours. I wonder how many people driving in the other direction saw us and thought, "how irresponsible".

As for the bold part...why is it okay to take the risk of putting our kids in a deathtrap like an automobile, because we need/want food and/or to avoid cabin fever, but increasing the risk slightly for a few minutes because the baby needs food isn't okay?

I'm sure carseats are safer, in general, than not being in a carseat. But, the degree of venom levelled at parents who don't use them ever single time, every single second, blows my mind.

I wonder what my child's risk is of being in an accident on any given trip from our home...compared to, say, my hypothetical fourth child's risk of being harmed by a uterine rupture if I have a VBA3C...nobody here says I'm irresponsible for wanting to do that...


----------



## Ambrose (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moondiapers*
In most states it's illegal to even ride in a cab without a carseat for your child and the cab driver won't let you do it. There are vests and harnesses that work as carseats that fit into your diaper bag BTW. So if you are coming to the states you will need to have some sort of carseat or safety vest if you plan to ride in cars or trucks. The only place they aren't needed are on busses.

In my state it is illegal to have a kid in a taxi (well any vehicle save a bus) without a carseat. HOWEVER, none of the cab drivers get cranky or even ask "hey do you have a carseat upstairs in your apt?" when we need to take one. And the stuff that fits in a diaper bag more often than not are either 1.) too hard to find 2.) too expensive or 3.) wouldnt really be considered, by a non educated cop, a real child car seat.


----------



## la mamita (Apr 10, 2005)

Ambrose- so do the cabbies provide the carseats or do you? or do you mean they don't get cranky if you decide not to use one--because it's less of a pain for them?


----------



## Ambrose (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *la mamita*
Ambrose- so do the cabbies provide the carseats or do you? or do you mean they don't get cranky if you decide not to use one--because it's less of a pain for them?

They've never provided car seats for us, and they don't get cranky if we don't have one when they pick us up (like if we were at the grocery store because we took the bus to the store but missed the return bus home). I think it's because it's less of a pain for them overall.

DD hates her carseat because we use it so rarely. So sometimes when I'm just at my wits end I decide to forgo the tantrums and earsplitting headaches and not haul out the car seat to them have to lug with me throught the store/doctors office/mall. I've never had a taxi company complain.

And to other posters who have mentioned car accidents and having that be a determining factor on their views of car seats... I has in a car accident that tore off the whole back end of my car less than a block from my home about a year ago. If my DD had been in the car (which thankfully she wasn't) even if she had been in a carseat she would have died because it hit the side where her seat would have been. That accident resulted in me not having a car and using taxi's. My opinions on car seats have actually LOOSENED since then because I've had to live life from "the other side" by only being able to rely on public transportation and at first, I admit i was willing to wait the extra hour with my toddler at the bus stop, juggling groceries and chasing after her so she didn't run into the road simply because I missed the return bus ride. After too many near "dash into road" incidents, I opted to take the taxi minus the carseat and have since realized that while yes, carseats greatly reduce the risk of injury/death it by no means makes it a zero percent chance (like my car accident, there is no getting around the fact that my daughter would have died).


----------



## la mamita (Apr 10, 2005)

***


----------



## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

It all depends where you live. I know here it is the driver who is responsible and would get a ticket and demerit points on their license.


----------



## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

As a rule of thumb, stories about "I'm only alive because I wasn't wearing my seatbelt" are pretty easy to discount. There's a real good chance that his hands were mangled BECAUSE he wasn't wearing a belt and made contact with the windshield. Also, as a first responder, I can tell you that anyone who can extract themselves from a vehicle, can also unclip a seatbelt with their mangled hands. Our abilities under duress are amazing. I can't tell you how many people tell me they don't wear seatbelts cause if they were in an accident and knocked unconcious they wouldn't be able to "get out". Ummm, if you're out cold, it's not gonna matter if you're belted in or not, you're not going anywhere under your own power.


----------



## la mamita (Apr 10, 2005)

***


----------



## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

I knew you weren't Michelle--I just always hear stories like that being told in defence of not wearing seatbelts-kwim?
I think he could have, our bodies in shock are truley amazing. I attended an accident once where lightening had hit a tree and the tree had falled and crushed the passenger side of a car. This man LIFTED the tree off his wife. When we got him to the hospital he had 3 spinal fractures, 2 skull fractures and his spleen had basically exploded (probably when he was lifting the tree) He died shortly after arriving at hospital, but for that few moments after the crash he was capable of anything.


----------



## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper*
To some people, lugging two toddlers, two carseats, groceries, diaper bag, umbrella, and a purse to get some food is unreasonable. And frankly I do not blame them.

Except lugging two carseats isn't a necessity. There are other options that lessen the risk. Taking alternative transport. Or carrying the portable vests linked to multiple times on this thread.

I'd be interested to know how many of you who ride with your children unsecured actually buckle yourselves up.


----------



## crissei (Oct 17, 2004)

subbing


----------



## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
Except lugging two carseats isn't a necessity. There are other options that lessen the risk. Taking alternative transport. Or carrying the portable vests linked to multiple times on this thread.

I'd be interested to know how many of you who ride with your children unsecured actually buckle yourselves. up.

Well, as some people have mentioned, many do not know those exist. They have not been well tested and might do more harm than good for all we know like the Mighty Tight. But regardless, when you miss that bus and the options are waiting an hour in the rain with two toddlers for the next one or taking a 10 minute taxi ride without a carseat or vest you start to weigh the risks and make the decision you are comfortable with. That will vary from person to person.

I am in no way saying that people should not use carseats. I am not saying that it is OK with me to not put dd in a carseat. All I am saying is that I can see situations in which I understand the other side. And even though I am a huge advocate for carseat use, I am not going to tsk tsk people that are in truly difficult situations as if they could not possibly love thier children to put them in such "risk".


----------



## HelloKitty (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper*
And even though I am a huge advocate for carseat use, I am not going to tsk tsk people that are in truly difficult situations as if they could not possibly love thier children to put them in such "risk".

ITA with this.


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sjkmaurice*
I wonder if being in a car accident before and even without our children makes some of us more wary about it than others.

I was wondering the same thing. Has anyone who chooses not to use a seat or buckle up ever been in a wreck? With or without their kids? I'd be curious to know the answer to this.
My worst wreck was being hit by an 18 wheeler who ran a stop sign probably only going about 20 mph. My oldest son was with me and my DH. I cry every time I think about what could have been the result if we had chosen at that moment to be un-buckled. As it turned out even at that slow speed we were all injured and in therapy for going on 2 years now. My oldest has a permanant brain injury as a result. Hell, I was a certified car seat tech before that wreck even happened. Our "accident" scene was investigated. And I was told in no uncertain terms that we would have been much more seriously injured had we not been properly restrained. So did restraints prevent all injury in our case? No. But it sure beat what would have been our alternative.

DC


----------



## Zach'smom (Nov 5, 2004)

I have a question for those of you discussing removing the baby from the carseat while you are driving.

How do you remove baby from the carseat while you are driving?
How do you nurse a baby while driving?

Or are you only doing this when someone else is driving? I am guessing that you are either already in the backseat or are climbing into the back while someone else is still driving.


----------



## Ambrose (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren*
I was wondering the same thing. Has anyone who chooses not to use a seat or buckle up ever been in a wreck? With or without their kids? I'd be curious to know the answer to this.
My worst wreck was being hit by an 18 wheeler who ran a stop sign probably only going about 20 mph. My oldest son was with me and my DH. I cry every time I think about what could have been the result if we had chosen at that moment to be un-buckled. As it turned out even at that slow speed we were all injured and in therapy for going on 2 years now. My oldest has a permanant brain injury as a result. Hell, I was a certified car seat tech before that wreck even happened. Our "accident" scene was investigated. And I was told in no uncertain terms that we would have been much more seriously injured had we not been properly restrained. So did restraints prevent all injury in our case? No. But it sure beat what would have been our alternative.

DC


I don't know if you continued reading but, I did post that I have been in an accident and still make the decisions I make. I will re-post my response.

Quote:

And to other posters who have mentioned car accidents and having that be a determining factor on their views of car seats... I has in a car accident that tore off the whole back end of my car less than a block from my home about a year ago. If my DD had been in the car (which thankfully she wasn't) even if she had been in a carseat she would have died because it hit the side where her seat would have been. That accident resulted in me not having a car and using taxi's. My opinions on car seats have actually LOOSENED since then because I've had to live life from "the other side" by only being able to rely on public transportation and at first, I admit i was willing to wait the extra hour with my toddler at the bus stop, juggling groceries and chasing after her so she didn't run into the road simply because I missed the return bus ride. After too many near "dash into road" incidents, I opted to take the taxi minus the carseat and have since realized that while yes, carseats greatly reduce the risk of injury/death it by no means makes it a zero percent chance (like my car accident, there is no getting around the fact that my daughter would have died).


----------



## Ambrose (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper*
All I am saying is that I can see situations in which I understand the other side. And even though I am a huge advocate for carseat use, I am not going to tsk tsk people that are in truly difficult situations as if they could not possibly love thier children to put them in such "risk".


----------



## Ambrose (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
I'd be interested to know how many of you who ride with your children unsecured actually buckle yourselves. up.

I buckle myself up when in a car. ANd when DD goes in the taxi with us she sits on my or DH lap and is buckled up with us. So it isn't like we let her crawl all over the vehicle.







:


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ambrose*
I don't know if you continued reading but, I did post that I have been in an accident and still make the decisions I make. I will re-post my response.

Nope. I missed your response. Sorry you went through what you did. The semi that hit us hit the side where DS # 2 normally would be riding. He was at home with my mom at the time, so I can definately relate.

DC


----------



## Ambrose (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren*
Nope. I missed your response. Sorry you went through what you did. The semi that hit us hit the side where DS # 2 normally would be riding. He was at home with my mom at the time, so I can definately relate.

DC


----------



## lasciate (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ambrose*
I buckle myself up when in a car. ANd when DD goes in the taxi with us she sits on my or DH lap and is buckled up with us. So it isn't like we let her crawl all over the vehicle.







:

That's really scary - in a crash the seatbelt will cut right through her abdomen and the force of the crash will turn you or your husband into a crushing force that will kill your child


----------



## paxye (Mar 31, 2005)

wow... I have read through the whole thread... took me a few days...

Anyways, I understand mostly everyone's POV here...

When ds#1 was born we lived near downtown Montreal and almost never used a car seat...
We didn't have a car and we took the bus and metro everywhere and there is no way to use a carseat cause there are no seatbelts... was I irresposible... I don't think so...
There were many times that we were offered rides and always declined. However, There were a few times that we got "stuck" on the other side of the city and had no real way to get home... (bus and metro stopped running because it was too late but we couldn't sleep over... bus and metro strike or metro failure etc...)
Since it is illegal to ride in a car without a carseat we would still refuse rides, but we would call a Taxi because it is legal here in Quebec to ride in a taxi without a carseat... (I even called the police station before the first time we did it)
We even found a way to strap the frame backpack we used for ds with the seatbelt and brought a "seatbelt lock"with us... (we did this a handful of times in 18 months), if we were without the frame backpack and I had ds in the sling he would either stay in the sling or sit between DH and I and use the middle lapbelt...

Of course some people may have chosen to leave the christmas party early even if it was the only chance you got to see family that came in from out of town and some people would rather walk 5 hours at -30 with a toddler on your back... but we decided to take the chance in a taxi...

When we moved from Montreal and got a car the carseat got a permenant place and we have never been without a carseat since then...
I have been stuck in traffic more then once now with a screaming baby... Because I am the sole driver and sometimes there just isn't a place to pull over, I have had to deal with a screaming cying baby... the only thing that I can do is talk, sinh and cry with them... if DH was with me he would sit in back and soothe babe to the best he could.... it broke my heart though...
During the time that ds#2 just really hated the carseat I stayed at home as much as I could... but in my small town you can't order groceries over the net so you do have to leave the house sometimes if you want to eat...

Anyways.... everything you do has risks... we have to be responsible for our actions... though I would never take a child out of a carseat in a moving vehicle since that is not in my comfort zone because I have the chance to use the carseat, I have been in a postion that I have had to use a taxi without a carseat... (and I had no idea that those harness things existed, or if they existed a few years ago, if I would have known though I would have bought one)

to the OP... I understand what you wanted to say... and this thread has a lot of great info...


----------



## pilesoflaundry (Dec 9, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ambrose*
I buckle myself up when in a car. ANd when DD goes in the taxi with us she sits on my or DH lap and is buckled up with us. So it isn't like we let her crawl all over the vehicle.







:

It's actually more dangerous to double buckle like that than it is to leave her unbuckled. Put her next to you and use the other seat belt or just have her sit with you but please don't buckle over her like that!


----------



## Diane~Alena (Aug 23, 2004)

I understand what you are saying and I don't think you are bad at all. I have never used a carseat on a bus, sometimes I used my stroller and lock it into the handicapped spot(if I can). I would rent carseats for when you are in North america or pick some up from the family servies. Maybe you could do some research and find out where to get them. If you are planning on using transit up here then there may not be a need. As for all the nasty comments I am sorry you got them. Some North Americans think their way of life is the only way of life














:nana:


----------



## sharksmum (Dec 31, 2003)

It would be much safer for *everybody* if more people simply used public transportation. We rarely hear this discussed in North America. For all of the pps who argued that they would "find a way" to cart car seats and toddlers around with them on their errands( keeping in mind that the op hadn't heard of portable car seats and they may or may not be available where she lives), why is a similar amount of energy not invested in finding a way to take public transportation everywhere you need to go thus making the roads safer for your children and everyone else's? A hassle, sure, but worth it for the number of lives that it would save, no?


----------



## Ayala Eilon (Apr 8, 2006)

You sound happy with what you are doing. I don't see a problem.


----------



## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sharksmum*
It would be much safer for *everybody* if more people simply used public transportation. We rarely hear this discussed in North America. For all of the pps who argued that they would "find a way" to cart car seats and toddlers around with them on their errands( keeping in mind that the op hadn't heard of portable car seats and they may or may not be available where she lives), why is a similar amount of energy not invested in finding a way to take public transportation everywhere you need to go thus making the roads safer for your children and everyone else's? A hassle, sure, but worth it for the number of lives that it would save, no?

Ha, I wish. I fully support public transportation and have tried to use it for years. However, it is just not practical where I live. It takes more than twice as long to get somewhere by train or bus, the schedules are limited (how many times have we read on this post about people having to take taxi's because the bus or train stopped running?), and they are certainly not convienient. I have to drive my car to the train station to get to it on time (bus takes forever and doesn't run on the same schedule), the train takes at least twice as long as it would if I had to drive, and to arrive at my destination I have to take at least another bus or two which takes even more time. Not to mention that if I want to be somewhere past a certain time I can't get back.

I know in other places it works much better, and I have used those systems when traveling, but here it just doesn't work, yet. Oh, and it can also be very expensive when you consider train and bus fares together.


----------



## sharksmum (Dec 31, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal*
Ha, I wish. I fully support public transportation and have tried to use it for years. However, it is just not practical where I live. It takes more than twice as long to get somewhere by train or bus, the schedules are limited (how many times have we read on this post about people having to take taxi's because the bus or train stopped running?), and they are certainly not convienient. I have to drive my car to the train station to get to it on time (bus takes forever and doesn't run on the same schedule), the train takes at least twice as long as it would if I had to drive, and to arrive at my destination I have to take at least another bus or two which takes even more time. Not to mention that if I want to be somewhere past a certain time I can't get back.

I know in other places it works much better, and I have used those systems when traveling, but here it just doesn't work, yet. Oh, and it can also be very expensive when you consider train and bus fares together.

I know that public transportation is very difficult in some places. I was trying to make a point to those people who claimed that they would definitely lug car seats around no matter what. Of course there are always exceptions (like your exception for not being able to use public transportation). The op made a case for some possible exceptions, where using car seats just does not make any logical sense (without the knowledge/ accessibility of portable car seats) I have made a conscious decision to rely on public transportation. As a result both my children and other children in my city are safer. My decision to use only public transportation has, on one occassion, forced me to travel with my daughter in a taxi without a car seat. It's certainly not something that I promote, but I believe that it is something of a reality when you rely exclusively on public transportation. I believe this is what the op was getting at.


----------



## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)

Yes imagine when you don't have a car, everywhere you go takes twice as long and can cost a lot in fares. Even in places where public transportation is well supported it *still* isn't the most convenient thing especially when you have small children. And that is a reality for many people, me included.

Quote:

I fully support public transportation and have tried to use it for years. However, it is just not practical where I live. It takes more than twice as long to get somewhere by train or bus,


----------



## la mamita (Apr 10, 2005)

***


----------



## firstwomantomars (Mar 2, 2005)

What I am understanding from this thread is:

Even though public transportation is safer than riding a car (in most places, but not where the OP lives), it's okay not to use it because it's not convenient, takes longer and costs more,

It seems that from what I've read on this thread, since those same reasons were not applicable for not using a carseat, and since we know the risks children run by riding in a car vs a bus, we should all use public transportation (in spite of the difficulties) or stay home?

And I'm serious. I don't own a car, originally for financial reaons but have recently been considering not owning one for ecological and safety reasons and also because I think my children benefit a lot from the interactions with other people on the bus and the slower pace it brings (less stress since I'm not driving, etc.).

But taking the bus is hard, when it's far, long, etc. and I sometimes get frustrated because I can't go places or it takes too long.

What I'm saying here is that I don't see any difference between some of the reasons given for using a car (albeit with a carseat) and not taking public transportation (where it's safe) and some of the OP's reasons for not using carseats which were considered by others as irresponsible...


----------



## crissei (Oct 17, 2004)

I know how pathetic this sounds but, I am always fascinated by public transportation when I travel to a city. It is usually my favorite part of the trip, especially the subway system.









Where I live, public transportation involves a dirt road and, a sturdy pair of shoes!


----------



## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

I 100% agree that this country needs to be focussing on public transit. Not just for people who cannot afford thier own cars but everyone. We have "public transit" here but it is one second hand shuttle bus that runs on demand only and for $5 per person each way. Taxis (which are also rare) are much cheaper. This is a small town but I do think public transit could work if half of the population of this town agreed to use it rather than thier cars. Frustrating. Luckily I can walk almost everywhere. But there is zero excuse for large cities like Detroit to not make transit safer, easier, and more accessible to all people.


----------



## sharksmum (Dec 31, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firstwomantomars*
What I'm saying here is that I don't see any difference between some of the reasons given for using a car (albeit with a carseat) and not taking public transportation (where it's safe) and some of the OP's reasons for not using carseats which were considered by others as irresponsible...

Exactly!


----------



## ToniaStarr (Sep 27, 2005)

I don't know, for me it comes down to a story I heard once on Oprah of a mom who hads two young kids and was only 5 minutes from her home. She got a ride from a friend in a truck and it only had one carseat so she put her baby in teh seat and held her toddler on her lap. Safest place for a babe to be right? In moms arms. Well, they got rearended and her toddler flew out of her arms and over teh overpass they were driving on at that moment. She crawled out of the car and found teh blanket her child had had covering her but could not find her child. The toddler was pronounced dead on teh scene. The risk is worth enough for me to insist on always using carseats. When my kids do cry I suck it up till we can pull over or get to our destination. There is no absolutes. Kids can die even IN carseats. Just my own personal feelings...


----------



## 3boobykins (Nov 21, 2001)

I just have to step in here and say that it is NOT safe to ever stop on the shoulder of a highway, freeway or busy road--in an emergency if a child is choking, etc, might be the only exception, and then you should pull off as far as possible. I know this has been somewhat addressed, but whenever I see a post about pulling over to nurse the baby, I feel like I need to post that pulling over on a highway means exiting and finding a parking lot or similar safe place. My fil was a police officer and saw many accidents happen when a car was pulled over on a highway or freeway and other drivers were confused/intoxicated and hit the parked car, or swerved into it. My brother once ran out of gas on a busy highway and had to pull off onto the shoulder. He was getting a gas can out of the trunk and happened to look up and see a pickup truck hurtling toward his car. He jumped out of the way, the truck rearended his car and pushed it around 100 ft. down the shoulder.

So, kinda off topic, but please ALWAYS find a safe place to pull over and nurse or tend to your little ones. If might mean a few more minutes of crying, which is so painful to hear, but never as painful as losing a child in an accident.


----------



## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3boobykins*
I just have to step in here and say that it is NOT safe to ever stop on the shoulder of a highway, freeway or busy road--in an emergency if a child is choking, etc, might be the only exception, and then you should pull off as far as possible.

I totally agree, unless it's a rural road with barely any traffic, but as for busy streets and highways, definitely not advisable. A previous poster suggested that she had been on a trip before where there were no places to pull over (like rest stops) for a long portion of her trip, therefore nursing while someone else was driving was her only option. But I suggest that even if she didn't know the areas well, she could easily have gotten off at an exit, looked for a nearby restaurant, gas station or even a parking lot, and stopped for a few minutes or half an hour and nursed. If that exit proved to indeed be unsavory or unsafe in some way, then go to the next one, but I would assume that this would be an extremely rare occurrence.

Yes, some babies like to nurse for an hour and yes, two hours of nursing would certainly add a lot of time to a regularly 3 hour long trip, but then perhaps it isn't a good idea to go on a long road trip, or simply budget 5 hours into the trip and bring some good books to read or a portable movie player to entertain yourself and the other passengers.

Planning, yup, planning...

As for car seats on buses, no, it's not necessary. I can see that having a baby bucket with the handle up, might provide some extra protection to the baby, should the bus get in an accident, but otherwise, at least the bus is such a large vehicle that it would accept much of the force without transferring much of the collision onto the passengers, far less so than a car in the same accident.

I don't feel the same way about taxis. Parents may choose to accept the risk of the "what ifs" of riding in a taxi without car seats, but those babies and small children certainly didn't get an educated choice or say in the matter.

Yes, indeed, things are different around the world but it doesn't change the fact that it is far safer to have your child properly and safely strapped into a car seat or booster than not to.


----------



## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

I'm sorry, but I just don't see a comparison between life in a place with little/no traffic and life in the U.S.

In the past three years, I've been involved in two serious car accidents. Before that, I was never in a car accident at all! Why? Because a) I've got a licence now (I didn't get my license until I was 25 years old) and b) I spend a lot more time in cars than I did before. The more time you spend in cars, the more likely you are to be involved in an accident.

I can't imagine telling someone who lives in a very different place that they should always have their kids in carseats. In fact, I can think of places where carseats would be very far down on my list of safety concerns for children. People can always tell horror stories and give you the what-ifs, but the fact is that everyone is in a different situation. I don't worry too much about, say, the potability of our water, because I don't think it's a major risk to my children given our lifestyle and where we live. I worry an awful lot about car safety, because given our lifestyle and location it's definately something to be concerned about. I don't expect everyone around the world to have the same priorities that I do, that just doesn't make sense.


----------



## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy*
I don't worry too much about, say, the potability of our water, because I don't think it's a major risk to my children given our lifestyle and where we live. I worry an awful lot about car safety, because given our lifestyle and location it's definately something to be concerned about. I don't expect everyone around the world to have the same priorities that I do, that just doesn't make sense.

Is there a limit to the number of things you're allowed to concern yourself with? I worry about water so I have a good filter. I also worry about car safety, so I have my kid in a carseat whenever we're in a car, no matter how inconvenient it is. I don't see why one concern would preclude another, even if it is *more* of a concern.

Every time you get in a car you're at risk of getting in an accident, regardless of how often or seldom you're in one.


----------



## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
Is there a limit to the number of things you're allowed to concern yourself with?

Only if I want to be able to function. I have to have priorities, and I have to draw the line somewhere. I only have so much time, energy, and money to devote to keeping myself and my children safe.

Quote:

Every time you get in a car you're at risk of getting in an accident, regardless of how often or seldom you're in one.
Of course this is true, but every time you wake up in the morning, there's some risk of *something*. There's a risk of getting struck by lightning every time I walk out the door (yes, even when it's sunny) but I don't let that keep me from taking my kids to the park.

In some places, there's a heck of a lot less risk involved in riding with unrestrained children than there is in the U.S.; that's all that I'm saying.


----------



## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy*
In some places, there's a heck of a lot less risk involved in riding with unrestrained children than there is in the U.S.; that's all that I'm saying.

Which makes me think of what those safaris look like, the types that the OP rides on. I picture one big bump and baby going flying, up up and away.... Yikes. Of course, if that's the only way to get around, I might well be tempted but I think I'd figure out some way to attach my children to me or to the vehicle to limit that flying action.


----------



## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiverSky*
Which makes me think of what those safaris look like, the types that the OP rides on. I picture one big bump and baby going flying, up up and away.... Yikes. Of course, if that's the only way to get around, I might well be tempted but I think I'd figure out some way to attach my children to me or to the vehicle to limit that flying action.

I wonder what they look like, too; if it's what I think it is, I can't imagine such a thing on an American highway.

When my oldest niece was about 15 months old, we went to the mall with my brother and his then girlfriend. I strapped her into her stroller, and the girlfriend looked at the flimsy buckle and said, "That's not much of a seatbelt, I can't imagine that's safe!" I had to point out to her that the stroller was very unlikely to be involved in a high speed collision; that in fact, it's top speed was probably going to be about half a mile an hour, and that it's job was not to restrain Chibi in the event of an accident and save her life, but to keep her from running around the mall unattended. Sure, it's a safety strap, but it doesn't need to be a car seatbelt to serve it's purpose.


----------



## jrayn (Jul 6, 2005)

I am unable to finish reading the thread but I have imagined a way to travel with 2 toddlers, maybe it is too far fetched, I am now in a situation where I have to go grocery shopping several times a week an will have to walk to a grocery store that is almost 2 miles away, not too far but if I had 2 toddlers and I had to use public transportation on the way there but a car on the way back here is what I would try:
I have a wagon, the kind you pull kids in, I would strap my 2 toddlers into their car seats and sit each car seat into the wagon and pull them to the bus stop, if the bus doesn't have wheelchair access things then I would ask the driver to help me lift the wagon/kids into the bus and I would hold the wagon in the aisle while we drove to the store.
Once we were in teh store I would ask a cashier or someone to keep the wagon and car seats behind the counter until I was finished shopping.
When done shopping and the car/taxi comes, I would put the wagon in the trunk and strap the seats in.
This does sound like a PITA but what always nags my mind is what a mom on Opra (the single episode I have watched this year) had to tell the world, she said that just one day, her car broke down and she had her 2 children, she was offered a ride as opposed to walking to get help, she took the ride, didn't use carseats and there was a horrible accident and one of her children died the other was in ICU I beieve that one survived. I would not be able to go on another day without my child alive and so I would just think of that story if I though it was too much of a PITA.
But then I haven't tested this idea so maybe it wouldn't work, maybe the bus aisles are to small or some other unknown problem.


----------



## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy*
I wonder what they look like, too; if it's what I think it is, I can't imagine such a thing on an American highway..

There was a link earlier that the OP posted to show what the safaris look like but now I can't find it. I went back and looked twice.







: Perhaps it was edited out? I guess my thought is that those safaris (sort of like open topped busses with huge tires) don't look as if they are only driving on smooth streets, but perhaps offroad or on dirt or gravel roads, and that's why I can imagine a child (or adult) bumping right out.

I feel extremely grateful that I have a safe vehicle with two safe booster seats for my children and I do understand that not everyone has that privilege.


----------



## Fiercemama (May 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren*
It may in fact be somewhat due to liability, however the main reason is that it would be a nightmare in design if there was one universal integrated seat in every car. A universal car seat that fits every child does not exist. In addition, there isn't a car seat which exists that fits evey car. Our kiddos aren't all the same. Vehicles are too different. Maybe someday, huh?










Call me an idealist, but I can't believe that they can make adjustable seats for adults and put a DVD player in the back seat, but they can't create a universal safety system for children in cars and planes. I think its about priorities.


----------



## rootzdawta (May 22, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fiercemama*
Call me an idealist, but I can't believe that they can make adjustable seats for adults and put a DVD player in the back seat, but they can't create a universal safety system for children in cars and planes. I think its about priorities.

I just was saying this to DH . . . GPS and TVs and spinning wheels . . . they can certainly have decent, adjustable and safe car seats built into planes, cars and even busses. It is totally about priorities. I think it boils down to who makes or who doesn't make money if car seats are standard or even optional in cars.


----------



## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)

the link is on post 155 (forgive me for not reposting it)


----------



## Fiercemama (May 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jrayn*
I have a wagon, the kind you pull kids in, I would strap my 2 toddlers into their car seats and sit each car seat into the wagon and pull them to the bus stop, if the bus doesn't have wheelchair access things then I would ask the driver to help me lift the wagon/kids into the bus and I would hold the wagon in the aisle while we drove to the store.
Once we were in teh store I would ask a cashier or someone to keep the wagon and car seats behind the counter until I was finished shopping.
When done shopping and the car/taxi comes, I would put the wagon in the trunk and strap the seats in.

I know that you are trying to suggest some solutions, but I can tell you that a wagon absolutely would not work on public transportation. I live in a big city with a very good public transit system. Our family is carfree by choice. We totally rely on public transit. Some of my experiences with kids on public transit include:

Last week I saw a mum with a full-size stroller on a streetcar during rush hour. She had the stroller pulled as close into her seat as possible, but was being harassed by the driver that she was clogging up the streetcar. I let her know that she had as much right to use public transit as anyone.

A coworker taking her DD (an infant) to daycare so she could go to work. Another passenger kindly suggested that she might want to wait til after rush hour to use the transit system with her child.

Suggesting that families have less right to public transit than others during peak periods works my last nerve. And it may not come down to "planning". When you need to travel, you need to travel. Perhaps you're on your way to work/daycare. Perhaps you're going to a doctor's appt. I'm not going to keep my kid out wherever we are extra long just so others are not inconvenienced.

While a lot of the routes in our city do have WC accessible "kneeling" buses, a lot don't. There has been many a time when I've wheeled my stroller up to the kneeling bus and the driver can't even be bothered to put it down (the push of a button from his seat). Some drivers (or other passengers) willingly offer to help you get your stroller on board, but many don't. I've even heard drivers say that they are not "allowed" to leave their seats (yah, unless its to stop the bus and get coffee and a donut at Timmy Ho's).

I've got pretty good mommy muscles and a very lightweight stroller (12 lb Mac) AND a petite kid. In a pinch, I can lift my stroller on my own onto a bus. I have yet to see how ANY stroller can get onto a streetcar with just one person - the doors are just too narrow. But perhaps I have just never figured this one out. I have conciously avoided riding on streetcars with the stroller, we mainly stick to the subway system. We chose our neighborhood and house because they are 2 blocks from the subway, in an area that we could afford.

We do usually ride during rush hour, to and from work/daycare. We can usually find at least a seat for DD - many people will kindly give up a seat to her (she's 4). But a few weeks ago, it was packed, and no one did. The car stopped very suddenly, and a 300+lb man almost landed on top of her.

To me, this thread has been partly about trying to raise awareness that there are challenges for families who don't live in the burbs with their own vehicle in the garage and installed car seats. So I'm just adding my own public transit experiences here.


----------



## PumpkinSeeds (Dec 19, 2001)

Rhondda, I've had many similar experiences on the public transport.

I always take our stroller too because there is no way I'm going to carry a toddler and whatever purchases I've had to make during our outing. Our stroller (aka the shopping cart) also has a boogie board so my preschooler can ride on it when he's tired of walking.

I once had a busdriver tell me to fold down the stroller before getting on. Yeah right, how to manage a runaway toddler, a preschooler, and groceries while folding down a stroller on the street. aaaaahhhhhhh!!!!!!


----------



## Ambrose (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jrayn*
I have to go grocery shopping several times a week an will have to walk to a grocery store that is almost 2 miles away, not too far but if I had 2 toddlers and I had to use public transportation on the way there but a car on the way back here is what I would try:
I have a wagon, the kind you pull kids in, I would strap my 2 toddlers into their car seats and sit each car seat into the wagon and pull them to the bus stop, if the bus doesn't have wheelchair access things then I would ask the driver to help me lift the wagon/kids into the bus and I would hold the wagon in the aisle while we drove to the store.
But then I haven't tested this idea so maybe it wouldn't work, maybe the bus aisles are to small or some other unknown problem.

Most bus systems do not allow you to block the aisle way as it is a hazard in the event of an evacuation. Strollers have to be placed under the seats and unfortunately most strollers now are super bulky and even folding them down it's difficult to shove them under the seats. More often than not we end up taking an entire two seats just for the stroller because it won't go under the seat. I'm fairly certain they wouldnt allow a wagon. We're barely allowed 2 grocery bags.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

We can take a stroller on the bus here (we have a small one - not an umbrella stroller, but close to it). If the wheelchair spaces aren't occupied, we can keep the stroller open with ds2 in it. But, if the wheelchair spaces are taken, it has to be folded and pulled out of the aisle. DH and I have ridden buses more than once with a baby in our laps and one hand holding the folded stroller as flush to the seats as we can. It's _very_ difficult. We've only bused anywhere as a family a couple of times since Evan arrived. I've been thinking of trying again, now that I'm _finally_ almost back to normal from the section.


----------



## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

You can take strollers on the bus here too.


----------



## sweetangelbrynlie (Jun 23, 2005)

I was in a horrific car accident on May 11th 2006, just over two weeks ago. I had all of my children correctly in their seats, my youngest baby rear facing, I had the seats installed by a proffesional just a few weeks before (I make sure my seats are installed correctly every few weeks by either the police or fire dept)

Anyways, we were hit head on by a driver under the influence at around 65mph, the only person in the van not wearing a seat belt was my husband, he is a grown man, and didn't want to wear his. He dearly payed for this. His arm went flying and was amputated





















He was in surgery for hours and HOURS on May 13th, he was air lifted out 100 miles away for emergency surgery, his arm is back on, but he will never ever have full use of it again, it's just on there for his own emotional well being because everyone wants an arm, yk? The docs knew that, and saved it for looks. It probably would have been this bad even if he had of had his seat belt on, I don't know.

My two younger children, were UNTOUCHED! We were hit head on, the police estimated around 65mph or maybe more, and my childrens seats never moved an INCH! I was knocked out, but when I woke up who knows how long later and opened the back door, my younger two were UNTOUCHED! Not a scratch on em. If I hadn't had them in a seat they would be dead, I am %100 sure of that, I would have been burying my children.

My older child was also correctly seat belted, but I made the mistake of putting grocerys in the back of the van where she was sitting, and a can of freaking soup flew up and put a hole in her forehead so big a ball would fit in it. She is fine after 40 or so stiches and staples. I will never ever ever be able to forgive myself for putting grocerys back there EVER!

So, my dh has lost all ability to work for a long while, we are totally without and suffering, our only vehicle is gone, the guy had NO car insurance so we are getting crap, but I have my children! And I honestly do thank my carseats and belts for that.

And, if any of you would like to see a picture of my dhs arm as of today (its BAD, I mean so bad Id probably get knocked off of this board for showing it) but I would be willing to email it to you, so you can get an idea what might happen to you or your child. Also have pictures of my van, my daughters head wound too, I can show you.

This is WAY OT for this post, but to everyone, please make sure to remove things from your car like toys, coffee cups, pens, anything that might act as bullets in a crash, I learned the HARD way and now my young daughter has a terrible terrible scar on her face. And it's ALL MY fault for putting grocerys beside her! I had "NO idea that would happen, it honestly never crossed my mind.

I know everyone here uses carseats, but Im writing all of this for maybe one reader who doesn't, yk?

I am just so thankful that I had them correctly in their seats. I was a person who NEVER EVER thought that I would be in a car crash, sometimes I would think about being in one, and one part of my mind would tell me "that will never happen to us" but it did. If you could see the pictures you would be really really speachless. It was a terrible wreck, Im honestly still in awe that we lived through this.

I am so thankful!

I just wanted to share this with all of you. Im sad, and still in shock. I cry alot, and am depressed over this. We are young, and my dh will possibly never normally carry around our children ever again. I just thought I would share if anyone is here right now!

Thanks for listening! If you would like to see pictures you can pm me and Ill show you.


----------



## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetangelbrynlie*
Thanks for listening! If you would like to see pictures you can pm me and Ill show you.

Oh Sweetangel, I am so so sorry to hear about this car accident and yet I am so so thankful that your family is relatively okay, still with you. Today, I drove around with my children firmly and safely in this Britax boosters with side impact protection but with tons of stuff on the passenger seat and on the floor in front of it. Never again, I swear!!! Stuffed toys only! Thank you so much for sharing your story. I can't thank you enough.







I hope that things get better for your family and that you find a way to financially take care of the things you need taking care of.

Perhaps Modest Needs could help you with something at this tough time or sometime in the future. Take care!


----------



## sweetangelbrynlie (Jun 23, 2005)

Thank you so much RiverSky for your words. Id love love to talk about my accident, but Im so afraid mothering will move it on me. Which board would I be allowed to make a post like "i was in a car accident" and talk about it?


----------



## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetangelbrynlie*
Thank you so much RiverSky for your words. Id love love to talk about my accident, but Im so afraid mothering will move it on me. Which board would I be allowed to make a post like "i was in a car accident" and talk about it?

I really think that it'd be a great thread for you to start in TAO "Talk amongst Ourselves". I can't think of any other forum that would be a better fit.


----------



## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fiercemama*
Call me an idealist, but I can't believe that they can make adjustable seats for adults and put a DVD player in the back seat, but they can't create a universal safety system for children in cars and planes. I think its about priorities.

I have a hard time believing that they could do this; as an adult, I have only been in one position in one vehicle (Ford Windstar) which fit me properly with no adjustments (rather, I was able to adjust it to fit me without doing anything odd to it). I'm kind of short, but at 5'1" I'm well within the range of normal hieght for an adult woman. I've driven several vehicles that simply did not accomodate my hieght.







My thoughts on this are exactly the opposite: If they can't make a seat that adjusts to fit 90% of adults, how on earth could they begin to creat a universal safety system for children who are growing so much more quickly and who have different safety needs from one another? If they ever did come out with a "universal" child restraint system, I don't think I'd ever be able to bring myself to trust it. The "universal" (and it's not even close to standardized) system for adult seats doesn't fit me, and I see people who are very close to my size and build all the time, so how could I expect anything to fit my son when I've rarely seen a child built the way that he is?


----------



## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Yes I am also 5"1, and trying to get a car seat to work so I can sit comortably, see through the windshield, reach the pedals, etc can be a nightmare.


----------



## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

The only thing I have to say on this subject is this:

Regardless of how much you love your child,
Regardless of whether or not you think you're doing the right thing,
Regardless of whether or not your child cries,
Regardless of what local customs in your area happen to be,
Regardless of the effect of CIO on the developing brain,
Regardless of whether you're buckling your child across your lap or letting them crawl around the back seat,

_The laws of physics are universal._ They are not open to debate.

Put this another way:

An object's weight times its speed equals its force. This is basic Newtonian physics.

In practical terms, if a car is going at 65 mph and hits a wall, a one-pound object sent abruptly flying in the car would smack another object with a force of 65 mph. I think that's probably how a ball feels when it's hit by Barry Bonds.

Let's say a woman is carrying her twenty-pound baby on her lap in a taxi going 45 mph. The taxi hits some object head-on. The woman will be physically unable to restrain the baby. Why? Because unless she is an Olympic powerlifter and in the Guinness book, the baby will suddenly weigh 900 pounds. The baby will hit the nearest object in front of it with the force of a 900-pound weight being dropped on the floor. The nearest object may be the windshield. It may also be the skulls of anyone in front of it.

Now you have the information. You decide.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

A wagon on a bus would never work. Even if it had an accessible entryway.

Bus drivers do not have to help you lift your stroller. They never offer IME, and if you ask they often refuse.

Here they are allowed to tell you to fold your stroller. They usually don't, but the mean ones do.


----------



## firstwomantomars (Mar 2, 2005)

If we are mainly concerned with safety here, then, if there is NEVER an option not to use a carseat while in a car than there should NEVER be an option to use a car AT ALL if there is any form of public transportation anywhere in your area.

It has been repetitively demonstrated in this thread that riding in a car is dangerous. Car accidents rank among the first causes of death in North America for children under 5 (someone can correct me here...).

So no matter how inconvenient, long or expensive pubic transportation is, since it's safer, why are any of us using cars????

And if any of us are using cars although it's the second best choice for our children's safety (after public transportation except in OP's case) than why can't OP and others use the second best choice (a car without a carseat) for the same reasons ?

I don't see anyone here giving a good reason to always use a carseat that would not also PROHIBIT using a car at all since we know it is so dangerous.


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Sweetangelbrynlie...I am so sorry about your wreck. What a horrible horrible thing to experience. Most definately find support by posting your story in TAO. You mentioned the other driver was uninsured? If you are in need of new car seats for the kids, please let me know. I don't know your insurance situation, but if you encounter problems trying to be reimbursed to purhase new seats and find yourself in need of financial assistance, please let me know. I will find you someone local to help you get new car seats for little if any charge. *Please* PM me if you need help.







Healing vibes to all of you.

DC


----------



## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *firstwomantomars*
And if any of us are using cars although it's the second best choice for our children's safety (after public transportation except in OP's case) than why can't OP and others use the second best choice (a car without a carseat) for the same reasons ?

I'm sorry, but that makes no sense. Using a car is an absolute necessity for some people. Using a car without a carseat is never a necessity (well, perhaps in case of an emergency, but otherwise, no).


----------



## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
I'm sorry, but that makes no sense. Using a car is an absolute necessity for some people. Using a car without a carseat is never a necessity (well, perhaps in case of an emergency, but otherwise, no).

Exactly.

Plus, using a car makes our life full and rich and wonderful. Our city has very little public transportation, only 3 routes and the buses run only once every hour and a half AND they do not run on Sunday and most of the area is not even serviced by them at all. Using public transportation is not even an option for many people.


----------



## srain (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
I'm sorry, but that makes no sense. Using a car is an absolute necessity for some people.

Most people I know (including myself) use cars when it is decidedly NOT a necessity. A parent who drives to one playdate a month without using a carseat is putting his or her child at less risk than a parent who drives their child to a playdate every week WITH a carseat.


----------



## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *srain*
Most people I know (including myself) use cars when it is decidedly NOT a necessity. A parent who drives to one playdate a month without using a carseat is putting his or her child at less risk than a parent who drives their child to a playdate every week WITH a carseat.

Let's say that both parents are rear-ended on the way to their tenth playdate...the child in the car seat will need chiropractic care, the child without a car seat could be dead.

I really don't think your example is accurate.

ETA: BTW, I'm the mother of a child who has been getting chiropractic care and massage therapy for over a year after being in a vehicle that was rear-ended, fortunately, he was safely buckled into his booster seat or it would have been much worse.


----------



## srain (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiverSky*
Let's say that both parents are rear-ended on the way to their tenth playdate...the child in the car seat will need chiropractic care, the child without a car seat could be dead.

I really don't think your example is accurate.

I'm a statistician. I look at it differently than most people I guess- and have to roll my eyes at parents who think it's okay to have their kids in traffic five hours a week, but get all aghast at the idea of someone taking a trip to the grocery store without a carseat once a week. Guess whose kids are more likely to be killed....


----------



## azurite (Feb 15, 2006)

Buses do not have belts...any suggestions?


----------



## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

I've been on a city bus with DS1 when he was a baby. First of all, it's pretty impossible to lug around a car seat if you are walking (if the baby is too big for a infant carrier) and of course you can't strap it on the bus. IMO using a car with a car seat is safer, but many people in other countries and low income here in the US can't afford cars.

I think it would be nice if busses had car seats already installed that people could use, of course they won't unless some sort of law was passed.


----------



## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Quote:

Guess whose kids are more likely to be killed....
The one not in a car seat.


----------



## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *srain*
I'm a statistician. I look at it differently than most people I guess- and have to roll my eyes at parents who think it's okay to have their kids in traffic five hours a week, but get all aghast at the idea of someone taking a trip to the grocery store without a carseat once a week. Guess whose kids are more likely to be killed....









: My kids are in carseats; I'm absolutely obsessive about it, and I'm still an ultra-cautious driver. Why? Because I'm certian that even in their carseats, the risk to them is much greater than it is to, say, the OP's child. My kids spend a ridiculous amount of time in traffic, because we have to travel at least 2 hours for medical care, among other things. Even making that trip only once or twice a week, that's a heck of a lot of time in traffic. Statistically speaking, it's no big surprise that I've been in two major accidents in two years.


----------



## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy*







: My kids are in carseats; I'm absolutely obsessive about it, and I'm still an ultra-cautious driver. Why? Because I'm certian that even in their carseats, the risk to them is much greater than it is to, say, the OP's child. My kids spend a ridiculous amount of time in traffic, because we have to travel at least 2 hours for medical care, among other things. Even making that trip only once or twice a week, that's a heck of a lot of time in traffic. Statistically speaking, it's no big surprise that I've been in two major accidents in two years.










I am with you. Amount of time and distance from home have no bearing on accidents, whatsover.

My niece is now 17. When she was 11 mos old, her babysitter took her out without her car seat. The sitter had the baby on her lap, in the front seat of a VW beetle. The sitter's sister was driving, and they got hit head-on in an intersection. Now, they were within a MILE of where my niece lived. My niece was air-lifted to the trauma center, and died 3 times, and was brought back. She spent the next few months in the hospital and rehab center. She had to re-learn to suck, eat, move, crawl, and walk (she was walking). She will never mature past the mental age of 13, if that. She will probably never have a regular job, family or spouse. She will always need to be looked after, because she did get a settlement from the insurance companies and we would not want her to be robbed by someone.

If you love your child, you do what is best for him/her. Public transportation, like buses, I can see where you would not have a car seat. But, there is no excuse for not having one in your car. I do not care if it is just to the store or on a 3 hour trip to the mountains. Accidents happen everywhere. Statistics are just numbers.


----------



## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TinkerBelle*
I am with you. Amount of time and distance from home have no bearing on accidents, whatsover.

My niece is now 17.

That's such a tragic story, TinkerBelle.

I have one question, if that's okay. Did the babysitter get charged with a crime? Did she spend time in jail?


----------



## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiverSky*
That's such a tragic story, TinkerBelle.

I have one question, if that's okay. Did the babysitter get charged with a crime? Did she spend time in jail?

No, she didn't. I am not sure why. But, I will tell you the girl had some remorse like you wouldn't believe. She saw my mother out and about a few months later and nearly peed herself and ran, because she was so scared Mom would say something to her. She called me and just broke down. I told her that as far as I was concerned, she was forgiven. Now, she needed to forgive herself.

She was a young married woman with a baby of her own. I do not remember what the laws were back in the late 80s, but I know they were not as strict as now, about car seats. At first I wanted to hurt her, but then came to the realization that she did not mean to hurt my niece. She just did something without thinking. She probably thought, "well we are not far from home". Goes to show how that kind of thinking can be deadly.


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

OK, this story is from 20 years ago in Europe, when car seats were not mandatory.

A friend of mine reclined the passenger seat, put her 6 month old lying on it, and put the seatbelt over him







Nothing I said could persuade her it was dangerous...


----------



## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli*
OK, this story is from 20 years ago in Europe, when car seats were not mandatory.

A friend of mine reclined the passenger seat, put her 6 month old lying on it, and put the seatbelt over him







Nothing I said could persuade her it was dangerous...

My mother says that 35 years ago, when I was born, there were no seat belt laws in Canada and she had a "car seat" that was practically just a box, that sat on the seat, it didn't even buckle in or anything. If she had to stop quickly, she would reach over and hold me in the box.

I think that this is WHY there are car seat laws now, because of all the lessons learned from being not restrained or improperly restrained in accidents in the past as well as now.


----------



## aprons_and_acorns (Sep 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crissei*
I know how pathetic this sounds but, I am always fascinated by public transportation when I travel to a city. It is usually my favorite part of the trip, especially the subway system.









Where I live, public transportation involves a dirt road and, a sturdy pair of shoes!

















this made me smile.

We recently moved to a city with a great bus system, which ds and I rely on for transportation when dh is at work. Between my toddler and I, I don't know who enjoys it more! I'm just a country mouse at heart, so taking the bus has been VERY exciting for us.


----------



## Jael (Mar 5, 2006)

Regarding your trip to the states, putting children in carseats, when riding in cars (not buses), is the law here. Like it or not, agree with it or not, it's not changing any time soon. There are agencies which will donate one or two to you, but your children must be in one. I don't take taxis, but I would imagine most taxi drivers, who want to avoid being stopped, will insist that your children be in carseats. Understanding cultural differences and understanding it's cumbersome, etc. I can feel where you're coming from.

*HOWEVER, a police officer and the judge will not care...they will not even listen. My advice to you is to be prepared to either put them in seats when you're visiting here, or pay a hefty fine. There are no ifs ands or buts about it.*


----------



## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jael*
Regarding your trip to the states, putting children in carseats, when riding in cars (not buses), is the law here. Like it or not, agree with it or not, it's not changing any time soon. There are agencies which will donate one or two to you, but your children must be in one. I don't take taxis, but I would imagine most taxi drivers, who want to avoid being stopped, will insist that your children be in carseats. Understanding cultural differences and understanding it's cumbersome, etc. I can feel where you're coming from.

*HOWEVER, a police officer and the judge will not care...they will not even listen. My advice to you is to be prepared to either put them in seats when you're visiting here, or pay a hefty fine. There are no ifs ands or buts about it.*

It is not against the law to have a carseatless child in a taxi in many states. New York is one.


----------



## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

And can someone correct me if I am wrong, but it was also my understanding that passengers, including children, do not have to be buckled in RVs either. Not that I am condoning that practice, just wanted to point out that the law is not that cut and dry.


----------



## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

Okay, I don't have time to read all the posts so I don't know if this has been posted

http://www.onestepahead.com/product/...63756/117.html

It's a simple way to carry around toddler seats for trips and stuff. It would be very heavy for me since I have a britax blvd, but most car seats are lighter than that.


----------



## srain (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal*
The one not in a car seat.

In any given week? Wrong.


----------



## lasciate (May 4, 2005)

The odds of getting into an accident are higher the more you are in a car, but unless you are denying that carseats save lives I don't see how an unrestrained child is more likely to live over a properly restrained child, no matter how often either are in vehicles.

You may only need that carseat once, but you don't know when that once will be.


----------



## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Quote:

The odds of getting into an accident are higher the more you are in a car, but unless you are denying that carseats save lives I don't see how an unrestrained child is more likely to live over a properly restrained child, no matter how often either are in vehicles.

You may only need that carseat once, but you don't know when that once will be.
Exactly, a person who spends more time on the road has higher odds of being in an accident, but it doesn't necessarilyi mean a person who travels farther will. So say a person who spends more time on the road ends up in more accidents than someone who doesn't, but if the kid is in a car seat, the likelihood that they will die is actually pretty low. However, the likelihood that an unrestrained child would die in just the ONLY one accident they get in (because they spend less time on the road) is VERY high. Unrestrained children are more likely to die period, and even in very low speed accidents. The only way to reduce that likelihood is to either put the kid in a car seat, or never travel by car, and for most people the former is a heck of a lot easier option than the latter. I was in a very serious accident just last year, thankfully with just slight injuries to everyone but my son, who had ZERO injuries, in fact the only one who didn't get injured.


----------



## la mamita (Apr 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper*
It is not against the law to have a carseatless child in a taxi in many states. New York is one.

Actually, it IS against the law in New York, they just don't enforce the law. http://www.saferoads.org/state/CPSbi...tate020802.htm "Requires taxi passengers between ages 4 and 16 to wear seat belts; passengers under 4 must be in a child safety seat"


----------



## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal*
Exactly, a person who spends more time on the road has higher odds of being in an accident, but it doesn't necessarilyi mean a person who travels farther will. So say a person who spends more time on the road ends up in more accidents than someone who doesn't, but if the kid is in a car seat, the likelihood that they will die is actually pretty low. However, the likelihood that an unrestrained child would die in just the ONLY one accident they get in (because they spend less time on the road) is VERY high. Unrestrained children are more likely to die period, and even in very low speed accidents. The only way to reduce that likelihood is to either put the kid in a car seat, or never travel by car, and for most people the former is a heck of a lot easier option than the latter. I was in a very serious accident just last year, thankfully with just slight injuries to everyone but my son, who had ZERO injuries, in fact the only one who didn't get injured.

Yup, there was a VERY serious accident in my town a few weeks ago, head on collision with 2 cars. All but two of the people in both cars were killed. The two survivors were an adult and the baby (the mother was killed) The surviving adult had VERY serious injuries and had to be taken by helicopter to a bigger hospital. The baby was out of the hospital in 48 hours, very very very minor injuries, mainly kept for observation. Had that baby not been in a car seat she would have died.


----------



## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

What it comes down to for me is this: I couldn't live with myself, ever, if I were in a car accident and my decision not to put my child in a car seat cost her life.


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *azurite*
Buses do not have belts...any suggestions?

Buses are designed internally and externally much differently than a passenger vehicle. I mentioned earlier buses are built based on the theory of compartmentalization. Statistically there are far less crashes and subsequent serious injuries and deaths experienced to those who are travelling in a bus at the time of a collision.
Currently, there are a few buses in scant cities that were built with safety belts but not many. This may change in the future.

Dallaschildren
CPS Instructor and momma to 2 sons in seats


----------



## srain (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Charles Baudelaire*
What it comes down to for me is this: I couldn't live with myself, ever, if I were in a car accident and my decision not to put my child in a car seat cost her life.

But you (general "you") could live with yourself if your child died, despite being in a carseat, when you were driving someplace unnecessarily? Cuz I NEVER hear carseat fanatics emphasizing the far GREATER safety impact of avoiding car travel as much as possible, even though reducing your time in the car reduces the risk of a deadly accident much more than using carseats. That's why it bugs me when people think it's totally cool to live 30 minutes from their kids' school and 40 minutes in the other direction from the grocery store and 90 minutes from the doctor where they have weekly appointments, but are all aghast when a kid is driven 5 miles a week out of a carseat. I think obsessing about carseats misses the bigger picture.


----------



## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *srain*
That's why it bugs me when people think it's totally cool to live 30 minutes from their kids' school and 40 minutes in the other direction from the grocery store and 90 minutes from the doctor where they have weekly appointments, but are all aghast when a kid is driven 5 miles a week out of a carseat. I think obsessing about carseats misses the bigger picture.

Maybe. On the other hand, some people have no choice but to live 30 minutes from school, 40 minutes from the grocery store, and 90 minutes from the doctor. Pretty much everyone has a choice whether or not to put their child in a carseat. And it's a fact that children who ride properly strapped in in carseats fare better in an accident than children who are not strapped in properly. So, I think trying to turn the argument in the other direction by focusing on driving time misses the actual point which is that, when one chooses to ride in the car without trapping one's child in, it's an unnecessary, serious risk.


----------



## beansavi (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
Maybe. On the other hand, some people have no choice but to live 30 minutes from school, 40 minutes from the grocery store, and 90 minutes from the doctor. Pretty much everyone has a choice whether or not to put their child in a carseat. And it's a fact that children who ride properly strapped in in carseats fare better in an accident than children who are not strapped in properly. So, I think trying to turn the argument in the other direction by focusing on driving time misses the actual point which is that, when one chooses to ride in the car without trapping one's child in, it's an unnecessary, serious risk.

And statistically, most accidents happen close to home. Have my child a projectile at even 20 miles an hour? No thanks.


----------



## MommyTo3 (Aug 11, 2003)

Sweetangelbrynlie,
Thank you for that reminder!! Even though I already KNEW loose objects could be hazardous, right now there is a wicker basket of toys, including a bunch of metal Hot Wheels cars that were on their way to the Salvation Army, but never arrived since visiting kids liked to play with them. Imagine if one my kids' little friends, buckled safely in his booster seat, was hit by a flying Hot Wheels car. I am going to take that basket out right now...


----------



## beansavi (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MommyTo3*
Sweetangelbrynlie,
Thank you for that reminder!! Even though I already KNEW loose objects could be hazardous, right now there is a wicker basket of toys, including a bunch of metal Hot Wheels cars that were on their way to the Salvation Army, but never arrived since visiting kids liked to play with them. Imagine if one my kids' little friends, buckled safely in his booster seat, was hit by a flying Hot Wheels car. I am going to take that basket out right now...

Oy. I have mugs in the cup holder. Porcelain ones.


----------



## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

A car seat tech I know likes to tell the story about getting in an accident and a box of tissues hit her in the head. She ended up with a cut!


----------



## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

I think I saw that busted on Myth Busters, they did the kleenex box and it didn't do anything.

Anyway, I have a ton of toys in my car







: I keep them in there cuz otherwise James will scream the whole time, he likes playing with his puzzle.


----------



## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

The mythbusters episode was about whether it would kill you. And yes, my friend really did get a cut from a tissue box in an accident, totally not related to the mythbusters episode.


----------



## MoonJelly (Sep 10, 2004)

I use car seats because I want to lower the risk of injury or death to my child(ren) and because it's the law. I hope all parents and caregivers protect their children in any way they can in whatever situation they are in to the best of their ability. However, it really annoys me when people get self-righteous about it.


----------



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

When I traveled to central Mexico this last year I didn't use a car seat with dd, who was about 22 months, I think.

We traveled by taxi, private car and bus. No one had car seats and it would have been pretty unwieldly trying to hold up everything and put our own carseat in and out of the vehicles. Also, Dd and I were traveling alone. She was young enough that she had to be carried (we don't even own a stroller), and with the luggage I thought trying to lug along a carseat was going to be too difficult.

I did put her in the backseat and buckled her with the lap belt in each case.

I don't know, when you grew up in an era in which the kids stood on the frontseat of the car leaning on the dashboard the whole time, the fact that your two year old has to use _only_ a lapbelt and not a childseat for a few trips seems pretty reasonable, kwim?


----------



## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *srain*
But you (general "you") could live with yourself if your child died, despite being in a carseat, when you were driving someplace unnecessarily? Cuz I NEVER hear carseat fanatics emphasizing the far GREATER safety impact of avoiding car travel as much as possible, even though reducing your time in the car reduces the risk of a deadly accident much more than using carseats. That's why it bugs me when people think it's totally cool to live 30 minutes from their kids' school and 40 minutes in the other direction from the grocery store and 90 minutes from the doctor where they have weekly appointments, but are all aghast when a kid is driven 5 miles a week out of a carseat. I think obsessing about carseats misses the bigger picture.

I rarely, if ever, drive anywhere "unnecessarily." Unfortunately, I live in a large, very hot Western city, which like most Western cities, was designed with cars in mind. It sprawls over a vast tract of land with very few safe places for bicycles (and the drivers here are very aggressive). Moreover, it would seriously be child abuse -- a term I do not throw around lightly -- to bike or walk with your child during basically late May through late September from about 9:00 in the morning through 7:00 in the evening. Our public transportation system is a joke, literally, and it would (again) literally be impossible to do ordinary activities such as going to the store, to my work, to the doctor. I used to live in Chicago for ten years and never owned a car because I never needed one, but we came out here and within two days realized that having a car was a necessity, not a luxury.

I don't personally enjoy tootling around in the car for no reason, nor do I think most mothers do. The picture of car-driving frivolity you've painted in your post simply doesn't describe me nor most of the people I know, nor most (I suspect) of the mothers on this board.

Oh, and I'd like to add that having the choice as to where to live implies that one has a great deal more money than I personally possess. For many of us, we don't have a heck of a lot of choice as to where to live. It would be easy for you to say, "Well, Charles, why don't you live in a city where there is an excellent PT system?" One word, hon: MONEY. We couldn't afford to live in Chicago for what they paid teachers ----->







; we can't afford to live in New York City or San Francisco (Well, really, who can?) or other large, metropolitan areas with excellent and diverse public transpo. In our particular city, we can't afford to live close to where I work AND close to the supermarket AND close to my doctor's, because there is no such place. Where I work is largely in a seriously economically depressed area and no supermarket chain wants to put a shopping center there...and that's for starters.

Again, I think you are making a rather large assumption both about many people's actual choices and their actual abilities to make those choices.


----------



## Minky (Jun 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Joannarachel*
Yeah, because a baby crying for five minutes is soooo much worse than a DEAD BABY because mom did something irresponsible. And YES it is IRRESPONSIBLE to take an infant from a properly secured car seat in a car. It has nothing to do with AP. Man.


This is the exact logic DH's parents used when trying to convince us out of cosleeping with DD.

It is the exact logic they used when trying to convince us a homebirth was not the right way to go for the birth of DS.

It is the exact logic my neighbor's just went through with me yesterday when I told them I don't have my kids vax'd.


----------



## la mamita (Apr 10, 2005)

...


----------



## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

srain-- I'm with you. The numbers don't lie, and the fact is that most of us drive "too much." Personally, I drive a lot more often than I think is reasonable. Yes, this is due partially to choices that we have made, but mostly it can't be avoided. Either I have to drive an obscene distance to get my kids to the doctor, or Mike has to drive an obscene distance to get to work. He drives to work every day, and can't consolidate trips the way that I can, so it makes more sense for us to live closer to work. However, this means that the kids are in the car much more often than I'd like, and therefore that they're at much higher risk for being involved in an accident, as well as seriously injured.

I'd absolutely love to reduce the number of hours that I spend on the road, but I've really cut things back as far as I can without totally screwing us over in terms of health insurance. We can only save so much time, money, and energy getting to the doctor before we end up losing time, money and energy in medical bills from people & places who don't take our insurance.







That's just the way it is for us. So I'm totally anal about the carseats, as I said before, just because of the statistics.

It's not about how far from home you are, and it's not about how fast the vehicle is moving; it's about the amount of time, overall, that the kids are in the car. Even to drive a ridiculously short distance in a rural area, I would not allow my children to go unrestrained, because it all adds up. I don't think that anyone who drives in the USA should ever drive without a carseat, because there are so many vehicles on the road that it's inherently dangerous. That said, I think that the OP was describing a very different climate than the one in which I drive. No, you can't change the laws of physics, but you can change statistics quite drastically by looking at a different situation. Statistics don't matter much if the one in question is you or your child, but the big picture is very different in different places.

I think that we're all talking about different things.

Another thing-- it's a lot harder to get a carseat than some of you are making out. When I had my accident earlier this year, I busted ass to get new carseats for the kids. Nobody could help me. Birthright could find an infant seat (out of date, with who knows what kind of history), and that was it. I had a toddler and a preschooler who initially had to ride in the seats which had restrained them during the accident (and which were obviously unfit for that task, in my mind) and then spent a week in their cousins old seats, which had never been in an accident but were too big for *both* children. The idea that "anyone can get a free carseat anywhere in the country" is, in my experience, an incorrect one. We had to wait until Mike's next paycheck and then spend money that we really didn't have on new carseats, and hold our breath in the meantime. No, the insurance company didn't just send us a check; when I talked to them, they said that it wasn't their policy to replace carseats after accidents, because we didn't really need new ones anyway. No, the police station didn't just give us carseats; it wasn't a big deal. Nobody cared about it at all. I've been in two serious accidents in which carseats had to be replaced, and never gotten a free replacement. My nieces were in a serious crash in booster seats two and a half years ago and my sister was reimbursed by the insurance company only after my mother's lawyer gave them crap for it. It's not as easy to get a new seat as many of you seem to think it is, at least not around here.


----------



## la mamita (Apr 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy*
Another thing-- it's a lot harder to get a carseat than some of you are making out. When I had my accident earlier this year, I busted ass to get new carseats for the kids. Nobody could help me. Birthright could find an infant seat (out of date, with who knows what kind of history), and that was it. I had a toddler and a preschooler who initially had to ride in the seats which had restrained them during the accident (and which were obviously unfit for that task, in my mind) and then spent a week in their cousins old seats, which had never been in an accident but were too big for *both* children. The idea that "anyone can get a free carseat anywhere in the country" is, in my experience, an incorrect one. We had to wait until Mike's next paycheck and then spend money that we really didn't have on new carseats, and hold our breath in the meantime. No, the insurance company didn't just send us a check; when I talked to them, they said that it wasn't their policy to replace carseats after accidents, because we didn't really need new ones anyway. No, the police station didn't just give us carseats; it wasn't a big deal. Nobody cared about it at all. I've been in two serious accidents in which carseats had to be replaced, and never gotten a free replacement. My nieces were in a serious crash in booster seats two and a half years ago and my sister was reimbursed by the insurance company only after my mother's lawyer gave them crap for it. It's not as easy to get a new seat as many of you seem to think it is, at least not around here.

I'm wondering this too. A woman just posted on freecycle asking for a forward facing carseat now that her daughter is 1 year old and I looked around the net trying to find info on getting her a free, new carseat and couldn't find anything in her area (or any other information on free carseats, for that matter). I'd like to know more, if there's something I'm missing here. She is in the Southeast Michigan area.


----------



## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *srain*
But you (general "you") could live with yourself if your child died, despite being in a carseat, when you were driving someplace unnecessarily? Cuz I NEVER hear carseat fanatics emphasizing the far GREATER safety impact of avoiding car travel as much as possible, even though reducing your time in the car reduces the risk of a deadly accident much more than using carseats. That's why it bugs me when people think it's totally cool to live 30 minutes from their kids' school and 40 minutes in the other direction from the grocery store and 90 minutes from the doctor where they have weekly appointments, but are all aghast when a kid is driven 5 miles a week out of a carseat. I think obsessing about carseats misses the bigger picture.


What "bigger picture" would that be? Why are you calling those of us who do our best to protect our kids, "carseat fanatics"?

I fully agree that sometimes, people drive too much, but you are darn right I am aghast at a child being driven 5 miles a week out of a carseat. I am aghast that anyone would not care enough about their child to do their very best to protect them, be it for 5 miles a week or 100 miles a week.

Live my family's life, with a child (my niece) who was rendered brain damaged unecessarily, because someone did not care enough to make sure she was strapped in a car seat, then you can judge. She was injured within a mile of her home, and that of the babysitter. And before we get the flame about how come she was with a babysitter, my sister was a single parent who lived with my mother. Everyone worked. I did not live there, and was on my own, supporting myself.

As far as some people thinking they are "cool" about how far they live from this or that~well, very few people I know live in an area where you can walk everywhere. I wish we did. We have no sidewalks, either. We are currently trying to rectify that situation, but for right now, driving here and there is our reality. We keep that to a minimum, and I might take the vehicle out once a week to shop or go to a doc appt, but that is about it. My husband has to drive as part of his job.


----------



## lasciate (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy*
Another thing-- it's a lot harder to get a carseat than some of you are making out. When I had my accident earlier this year, I busted ass to get new carseats for the kids. Nobody could help me. Birthright could find an infant seat (out of date, with who knows what kind of history), and that was it. I had a toddler and a preschooler who initially had to ride in the seats which had restrained them during the accident (and which were obviously unfit for that task, in my mind) and then spent a week in their cousins old seats, which had never been in an accident but were too big for *both* children. The idea that "anyone can get a free carseat anywhere in the country" is, in my experience, an incorrect one. We had to wait until Mike's next paycheck and then spend money that we really didn't have on new carseats, and hold our breath in the meantime. No, the insurance company didn't just send us a check; when I talked to them, they said that it wasn't their policy to replace carseats after accidents, because we didn't really need new ones anyway. No, the police station didn't just give us carseats; it wasn't a big deal. Nobody cared about it at all. I've been in two serious accidents in which carseats had to be replaced, and never gotten a free replacement. My nieces were in a serious crash in booster seats two and a half years ago and my sister was reimbursed by the insurance company only after my mother's lawyer gave them crap for it. It's not as easy to get a new seat as many of you seem to think it is, at least not around here.

Any occupied seatbelts must be replaced after an accident. Did your insurance pay for the seatbelt replacement? Both seatbelts and carseats are considered a 'one-time only' use product.


----------



## lasciate (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *la mamita*
I'm wondering this too. A woman just posted on freecycle asking for a forward facing carseat now that her daughter is 1 year old and I looked around the net trying to find info on getting her a free, new carseat and couldn't find anything in her area (or any other information on free carseats, for that matter). I'd like to know more, if there's something I'm missing here. She is in the Southeast Michigan area.

Tell her to contact someone from her area off of this list and they should be able to help her.

http://www.michigansafekids.org/passenger-fitting.php

If anyone in the US needs information on carseat installation or free seats for low income parents, contact your local Safe Kids organization for info.


----------



## lasciate (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TinkerBelle*
What "bigger picture" would that be? Why are you calling those of us who do our best to protect our kids, "carseat fanatics"?

It's how they justify not using a carseat - by belittling its importance.


----------



## la mamita (Apr 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lasciate*
Tell her to contact someone from her area off of this list and they should be able to help her.

http://www.michigansafekids.org/passenger-fitting.php

If anyone in the US needs information on carseat installation or free seats for low income parents, contact your local Safe Kids organization for info.

Thanks. I will pass that along (and save the link for future use!).


----------



## scruggle (Jun 4, 2006)

I see that this topic is REALLY hot so I am not going to get too involved in it but I do have a question. I have a 31month old son who can get out of a 5point harness style seat by moving the little chest positioner and squeezing out between the straps. he then stands up in the back of the car and leans between the seats to talk to me. (I don't talk to him, I put him back in his seat) This is something he does no matter how many times I strap him back in. Does anyone know of an inexpensive*** car seat that I can buy to prevent this from happening.
I believe that our children should be in car seats but everyone has her own choice of how to deal with it. I am also one of those people who has no choice but to drive 30 miles to the store. I also must travel with my children because I have no dh to keep them at home.


----------



## la mamita (Apr 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scruggle*
I see that this topic is REALLY hot so I am not going to get too involved in it but I do have a question. I have a 31month old son who can get out of a 5point harness style seat by moving the little chest positioner and squeezing out between the straps. he then stands up in the back of the car and leans between the seats to talk to me. (I don't talk to him, I put him back in his seat) This is something he does no matter how many times I strap him back in. Does anyone know of an inexpensive*** car seat that I can buy to prevent this from happening.
I believe that our children should be in car seats but everyone has her own choice of how to deal with it. I am also one of those people who has no choice but to drive 30 miles to the store. I also must travel with my children because I have no dh to keep them at home.

Can you tighten the straps so he can't squeeze out of them?

Maybe someone else has a more helpful solution, I'm useless.







Dallas?


----------



## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lasciate*
It's how they justify not using a carseat - by belittling its importance.


I just do not understand belittling something that could save a child's life and a family a heck of a lot of heartache. I wish I had pics of my niece when she got injured so people could see what not strapping in a child can do. She looked like a broken doll, with every tube and wire and whatnot sticking out of her and connected to her. Her brain swelled so badly, and her face was so banged up, she was unrecognizable. It was the most horrible thing I have ever seen. And so freaking unecessary.

You never think it can happen to you. But believe me, it can.


----------



## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *srain*
Cuz I NEVER hear carseat fanatics emphasizing the far GREATER safety impact of avoiding car travel as much as possible, even though reducing your time in the car reduces the risk of a deadly accident much more than using carseats.

I'm not sure if I'm a carseat fanatic, but I do emphasize the safety impact of avoiding car and plane travel. I usually take that into consideration when planning trips, and when I talk about these issues. The people I know who didn't use carseats drove considerably more than I do.


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scruggle*
I see that this topic is REALLY hot so I am not going to get too involved in it but I do have a question. I have a 31month old son who can get out of a 5point harness style seat by moving the little chest positioner and squeezing out between the straps. he then stands up in the back of the car and leans between the seats to talk to me. (I don't talk to him, I put him back in his seat) This is something he does no matter how many times I strap him back in. Does anyone know of an inexpensive*** car seat that I can buy to prevent this from happening.
I believe that our children should be in car seats but everyone has her own choice of how to deal with it. I am also one of those people who has no choice but to drive 30 miles to the store. I also must travel with my children because I have no dh to keep them at home.

What type of car seat is it? (manufacturer and model) My first reaction to your description of how he is getting out, is that the harness straps are not tight enough. I teach the pinch test to determine is it tight enough. After placing your child in the seat and tightening his straps, if you can pinch any belt web vertically (test area above the chest clip), it isn't tight enough. If you can give me additional info I may be able to suggest something different to try and help.

Dallaschildren
CPS Instructor and momma to 2 sons in seats


----------



## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Have not read all the posts but just wanted to note here that there is a debate going on about car seats at the moment, started by Steven Levitt's book entitled Freakonomics. Levitt researched the data on infant fatalities and concluded that car seats save only about 100 lives per year - that is not a whole lot. Basically, you are putting your child in more danger by sending them to the next door neighbor's house, where there is a swimming pool with no fence around it (putting fences around swimming pools save 400 lives per year, according to Levitt).

I take taxis all the time with my 22 month old DD - and no car seat.







:


----------



## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

Even a short review of his work shows that he is an idiot. He compares only deaths, not injuries. On top of that he says for OVER two yo's, not kids in general. I am no car seat tech, but even I could see how false his claims are.


----------

