# Why are women with partners more likely to opt for drugs in labor?



## fireHC11 (Nov 21, 2009)

Recently I learned, from a yet-unpublished study, that women that had their spouse present during birth were much more likely to choose pharmacological methods of pain relief.

I pose these two questions to you, empowered birthing women:

1) Why is there such a correlation?

2) What can we women do to better prepare our partners?

My theory is that birth partners, no matter how prepared, break down when seeing the woman they love in labor. Maybe they recommend drugs when the time comes. Maybe they just don't discourage it. Maybe they stand around, paralyzed, unable to help.

And as far as what we can do to help... I have no idea.

What do you think?


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## MyFullHouse (Apr 23, 2010)

Hm.

Maybe singles are more likely to be independent thinkers?

Maybe socio-economics comes into play?

I don't know. My single sister chose an epidural, and my dh has never encouraged me to go against my birth plans.


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## lyterae (Jul 10, 2005)

I have no idea.. My DH knew that I didn't want any drugs and he was not to suggest them. It was hard for him to see me in pain, but he never once suggested medication...


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

I guess it depends what you mean by "help".

I worry that the reason that single women don't get pharmacological pain relief isn't because they don't feel the need. I have heard plenty of stories of doctors and nurses who treat single mothers less well than they treat married ones, whose attitude towards a single woman in intense pain is "That'll teach you!"

By comparison, not only are doctors and nurses more likely to react approvingly to a married woman's request for pain relief, but that partner is more likely to stand up and demand that his wife be treated well and kindly. If that's the reason why married women are getting more anesthesia, then better preparation for married women's birth partners is completely beside the point.


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

Well, when I was unmarried and single, they practically forced anesthesia on me. I had to beat them off of me to keep from having an epidural with #1. With #2 they won that game. With #3 I was not married but my partner was involved and he knew I did NOT want anything. They gave me 1/2 dose of nubain but then he managed to keep the epidural away. I think it's like what was said above about seeing the women they love in pain. But my dh also knew I would kill him if he let me get an epidural.


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## cappuccinosmom (Dec 28, 2003)

Interesting. I'd like to see the study.

I think it could be socio-economic.

I think it also could have to do with the way single moms are treated by some. Especially oung single moms. I'm not sure there's quite such a sympathy/end-the-pain response when it's a young single mom giving birth, vs. a mom who's done everything in "the right order".

Of course, statistics only mean so much. My single sister had an epidural (and then a section). Meanwhile, dh has been by my side for all three births and the most I've had is stadol, and that was only in the first birth. If anything, my husband is my strongest and most consistent advocate and encourager for natural births.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

I've heard a theory that the woman is reading the face of the partner and seeing any worry, whatever, there and women are more likely to be, sort of, trying to make others happy (despite being the one in labor)... so it's sort of a theory of people pleasing - you don't want other people to seem uncomfortable with your pain, so you accept drugs, I guess?


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## treeoflife3 (Nov 14, 2008)

I wonder if the whole "you'll hate him in labor/'why did you do this to me?!'" Thing is at play as well?

I agree with what all has already been said but I can see one cause being that the married person with her spouse there is going to have heard the jokes about how you'll think he is evil an so forth during labor/birth and is more reminded of it with him standing there and therefor thinks labor is harder/hurts more simply because they already have it in their head that they are supposed to be 'mad' at him right now. More negative stories screwing with women psychologically.

I've heard the 'punishment' stories though (there is a really awful one on myobsaidwhat.com from a teen mom) and socio economic issues make perfect sense.

All I know is, I am 100% not likely to get anything unless there is an absolute need for it no matter what haha. My husband couldn't be at the last birth (deployed, on the phone... poor guy) but he will be at the next one (he is getting out!) so hopefully he learns right quick to just trust me and not want me to 'take something for the pain.' I know he won't like to see me in labor haha.


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## buckeyedoc (Nov 9, 2006)

My husband told me last night that he "knows" I could have delivered my most recent baby more quickly if I would have opted for an epidural because he has been talking with "people" who say it "calms" women and allows labor to progress. OK, so that does happen sometimes, but epidurals also slow/stall labor more often than that, and I didn't want one for many reasons. That's why I hired a doula. I knew DH wouldn't like seeing me labor unmedicated. I think many partners can't stand to see women in pain, and if they are men, they can't exactly relate.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Women with lame partners, maybe. My dh was Bradley trained and was an amazing amount of support and comfort to me. Not once did anyone in the room suggest anything to me. I had gloriously intervention free, drug free births.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Juvysen*
> 
> I've heard a theory that the woman is reading the face of the partner and seeing any worry, whatever, there and women are more likely to be, sort of, trying to make others happy (despite being the one in labor)... so it's sort of a theory of people pleasing - you don't want other people to seem uncomfortable with your pain, so you accept drugs, I guess?


I think this is a good explanation. I know that I got an epidural with number 3 because we were desperately trying to get someone to come to the hospital to pick up our kids (it was the middle of the night and pre-term, so my mother was not listening for our call) and every time I had a contraction my dd (2 yo) started crying and it made the contraction hurt worse. We were feeding off each others stress and pain. I can see something similar happening with a partner.


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## Mommy2Austin (Oct 10, 2006)

In my thinking...

I'm a woman/mom. I take care of everyone...its my instinct. When I can't mother hen something I feel out of control. In a birthing situation... I'll focus in on my worried husband (this was the first two times...now mine's a pro lol) and want to make him feel better when I should be focusing inward. The pain relief from an epi or some stadol can give the ability to focus in his direction to make him "better."

Now that I no longer put myself at the hospital to birth, (my last two have been born at home...my first was hospital w/ epi) I don't have the option for pain relief from drugs. And I've actually found I'll stay AWAY from my husband/kids until the very end because they take my focus. I want to comfort them and take care of them, when I need to focus on me.


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## fireHC11 (Nov 21, 2009)

Thanks for the replies, ladies!

It looks like there are two different, but compatible theories:

1) Single women are treated more poorly in the birth environment. I will have to see how much this has been documented, but this is not surprising and a very likely explanation.

2) Women (and mothers) aim to please those around them, and to shield them from the discomfort of seeing them in distress.

Oddly enough, there were no other correlations between having other support people (mothers, sisters, friends, doula) and whether women chose drugs in birth.


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## Marissamom (Dec 17, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fireHC11*
> 
> Thanks for the replies, ladies!
> 
> ...


maybe because other support is likely to have gone through birth themselves?


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## Comtessa (Sep 16, 2008)

> Oddly enough, there were no other correlations between having other support people (mothers, sisters, friends, doula) and whether women chose drugs in birth.


I remember reading in a different study that women in labor report approximately the same amount of pain after having an epidural as they do when they have a doula attending them. I guess the theory is that having consistent, trained female care & companionship during labor can reduce the experience of pain. (Which is great, 'cause doulas are a lot cheaper than anesthesiologists, and no yucky side effects either!!!)


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fireHC11*
> 
> My theory is that birth partners, no matter how prepared, break down when seeing the woman they love in labor.


This is what I first thought. I mean, *I* would have a hard time watching a loved one suffering. I really would!

The other thing is that men tend to be not as well read about birth. They probably haven't put as much time & thought into it, so they might not really truly grasp the implications of that massive step down the path of a medicalized birth, so they might not be as dedicated to avoiding epi. After all, pretty much everyone gets one, right?









This is one case where I was at an advantage having a DH who is a bit insensitive sometimes, ha! & even given that he can be insensitive & unsympathetic, he still was a little 'freaked out' when I was in transition & screaming. He wasn't about to suggest drugs, but he did feel a bit powerless & overwhelmed (I didn't want him to touch me, so there was really nothing he could do to help.)

I think often men want to "fix" a problem - they have trouble just empathizing & offering emotional support without "ACTING" to "fix" what is wrong.


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## JamieCatheryn (Dec 31, 2005)

Dr. Michel (sp?) Odent would say it's because laboring women have a harder time getting into the groove and a functional labor and can-do mindset if men are around. Except he'd say that in French and more professionally. For some that might actually be true, I do tend to feel more self confident with DH's support from afar than right there with me.


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## happysmileylady (Feb 6, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *philomom*
> 
> Women with lame partners, maybe. My dh was Bradley trained and was an amazing amount of support and comfort to me. Not once did anyone in the room suggest anything to me. I had gloriously intervention free, drug free births.


 I find this offensive. My DH is not lame because his desire to support my wish was at war with his desire to fix my pain.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fireHC11*
> 
> Recently I learned, from a yet-unpublished study, that women that had their spouse present during birth were much more likely to choose pharmacological methods of pain relief.
> 
> ...


I have given birth 3 times, first as a single mom, no epidural, second married, with an epidural and third, married, no epidural. I didn't want the epidural with #2, but I caved after being asked just once. He never pressed, only asked. When I was pg with #3, we discussed it at length. And your theory is EXACTLY what he told me. It's one thing to "know" that the woman you love is going to be in a lot of pain, it's another to be in that moment experiencing it. He never recommended it, never pushed it, he only asked once. He just felt really helpless, like nothing he was doing to support me was working (it was, but it can be hard to tell, you know.) With the third, I knew I didn't want an epidural, and we had a lot of conversations about it. And in the end, he didn't ask. I almost caved anyway, but ran out of time.


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## jeminijad (Mar 27, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *philomom*
> 
> Women with lame partners, maybe. My dh was Bradley trained and was an amazing amount of support and comfort to me. Not once did anyone in the room suggest anything to me. I had gloriously intervention free, drug free births.


I think 'lame' is not necessarily the appropriate term. You aren't a lame partner just because you haven't taken Bradley. It is normal to want to take pain away from someone you love.


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## rhiandmoi (Apr 28, 2006)

Didn't the study put foward a possible explanation?

It could be that women with partners are more confident that their wishes will be followed and so they are more likely to ask for pain medication than un-partnered women. It could also just be that is how it was for that particular cohort of women, and that it wouldn't play out that way in the greater population.


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## Chavelamomela (Sep 25, 2006)

Dr. Michel Odent has spoken out against men/husbands being in the delivery room FOR MOST CASES.

Now, this is not referring to our DH's who are awesome birth partners.

But I can tell you, that for many men, their nature, as men, is that when they see their loved one in pain, they want to DO SOMETHING to help. For some, who have been properly prepared with a Bradley class, or read "The Birth Partner" they will step up to the plate and put their energies to facilitating an active labor.

For other men, they will look at their wife in pain, look at the doctor, back at the wife, and say "Doctor, she's in pain - DO SOMETHING!" and then the epidurals and interventions begin...


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## caned & able (Dec 8, 2005)

Back in the 1970s, when having your partner in the delivery room was a novelty, most natural birth advocates felt that having the husband there would be an advantage for the women who otherwise felt alone and abandoned in her labor room. Obviously this has backfired since obstetricians will try to manuever husbands into procedures and surgery to move things along.


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## elanorh (Feb 1, 2006)

I agree with the "young, single mom gets poor care" approach (that it happens, that is, not that it's a good thing).

I have a friend whose first birth was as a teen mom - induced, but without pain medication at any point and of any kind. It was a fast labor (her then-boyfriend was with her for the labor, she never took a birth class).

Her second baby was a longer labor, with a husband who'd never been at a labor before. She wanted a natural birth, they did classes, and he was just overwhelmed with how much it seemed to hurt her. She opted for the epidural because, she said, he was so worried about how much pain she was in. She ended up with numbness in her legs for several weeks, headaches, etc. If they have another, I think the plan is to have a doula there too and kick the anaesthesiologist out of the room. .

It's not that her husband wished her malice, he was overwhelmed by her pain and wanted to fix things. I think it's a combo of men thinking that they should 'fix' things (and not wanting to feel guilty about 'causing' this pain), and women wanting to please others (especially a panicked spouse). Plus, we trust them. If they think it's that awful, and we feel that awful, then we must need medicine. The fear of birth we have as a culture plays into this, because men and women are both afraid that birth is earthshatteringly painful and catastrophic - that's what they see in the movies, on TV, talked about among friends....

I've another friend who told me that if she ever gets pregnant, she doesn't want her husband in the delivery room at all - she doesn't want him to see her "like that."

When we were teens, we found the love letters my Dad had written my Mom while they were engaged. He wrote about worrying about how much pain she'd be in when they had babies. Mom had all 7 births with no pain medications at all, Dad was one of the first dads allowed into the delivery room at that hospital. He fainted during the first birth (not surprising, the doctor cut a horizontal episiotomy on Mom).

I think the real factor, then, is a combination of how strong the woman's knowledge and goals are - and how willing her spouse is to educate himself and support her in labor. Dad didn't go into it confident; but he became confident in Mom's capabilities over time. Likewise - my uncle has said more than once that he'd LOVE to be a doula. He and his wife had five babies, all natural births, and he loves birth. He's in awe of what women can do (the best part of this is, he's a crusty old rancher, totally incongruous I suppose).

My husband went to birth class with me, and I read passages aloud to him while I was preparing. Went over the plans, and told him, "Don't suggest drugs, and if I ask for them, tell me NO, because I don't really want them." He was kind of on autopilot for our first birth -- scared. He told me, he was so afraid that something awful would happen to me and the baby that he just couldn't really think. Seeing his first birth calmed him down - he was very competent for our second birth. The advantages I had with our first birth were that every woman in my family has had natural births, so I was confident - and we birth quickly, so there wasn't time for the hospital to intervene and muck things up.


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## Mrs.Music (Jun 15, 2010)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Juvysen*
> 
> I've heard a theory that the woman is reading the face of the partner and seeing any worry, whatever, there and women are more likely to be, sort of, trying to make others happy (despite being the one in labor)... so it's sort of a theory of people pleasing - you don't want other people to seem uncomfortable with your pain, so you accept drugs, I guess?


This is basically what I was going to say. If you see that your partner is distressed or uncomfortable with your pain, it may make it harder for you to cope and accept the pain as just part of the process. You may feel the need to "feel better" so that your partner can feel better. And so many men don't want to know anything about the birth process before it happens, I don't think they are really prepared for it, and they can't understand why you would choose NOT to get the drugs. And some voice that opinion. My DH doesn't even want to hear the words birth or labor before I'm in labor. Seriously. But I am planning a home birth so no drugs are going to be around for the pushing. And he is supportive of my choice to do whatever the heck I want to. As long as we don't have to talk about it in detail first. lol


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## Marissamom (Dec 17, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *elanorh*
> 
> I agree with the "young, single mom gets poor care" approach (that it happens, that is, not that it's a good thing).
> 
> ...


love the mental image of a crusty old rancher as a doula...

talking to my midwife for our second she was amazed that I had my first with no epidural because we hadn't taken any birth classes. I think it really helped that both DF's family and mine believe in natural birth, that both DF and I were home births, and I had done a tone of reading and had told DF a bunch of the possible side-effects of an epidural. but I think if I had had a longer labor there would have been a much greater chance of me ending up with one.


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Chavelamomela*
> 
> Dr. Michel Odent has spoken out against men/husbands being in the delivery room FOR MOST CASES.


Hm, I can see the logic in this, I guess. I mean, just this week I was advising a friend to consider not having her DH in the room for her birth because he is, in her words, "squeemish about blood & medical stuff."

But on the whole, my DH is my partner in life. He is my partner in this parenting adventure - and birth is the commencement of parenting. (LOL, but "beginning" just doesn't seem to be a powerful enough word to convey the seriousness of this onset of parenting.)

I love him, trust him, & feel comforted by his presence. I like having him to take care of me if I am sick or worried. He reassures me. I can't fathom my laboring being anything but better for his presence.

Again, I totally see the logic in NOT having a partner attend birth, but I'd have to guess it's more likely than not that the presence of a *well-educated* partner would be beneficial. (Of course "well-educated" being crucial.) Isn't that exactly what Dr. Bradley found? That when husbands were allowed in, the outcomes were better?


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## buckeyedoc (Nov 9, 2006)

I wouldn't have felt comfortable *not* having DH in the room, even though he tells me now he wished I had an epidural, and he was kind of a deer in the headlights for all three births. Because the baby is his child, too, I feel he should be in the room to see the entrance.


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## Twinklefae (Dec 13, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *buckeyedoc*
> 
> *I wouldn't have felt comfortable not having DH in the room,* even though he tells me now he wished I had an epidural, and he was kind of a deer in the headlights for all three births. Because the baby is his child, too, I feel he should be in the room to see the entrance.


That's how I feel too. DH was FANTASTIC during labour. A superman. I'd hired a doula because I expected him to be crap, but it meant I had two fantastic supports. I did have an epidural in the end, but I was in labour for 36 hours first - I needed to sleep. And the epidural freaked my husband out far worse than me being in labour did. That's when the doula went from being my support to being my husband's support - she explained all the equipment they were using and what it was for.


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## gemasita (Jul 1, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Juvysen*
> 
> I've heard a theory that the woman is reading the face of the partner and seeing any worry, whatever, there and women are more likely to be, sort of, trying to make others happy (despite being the one in labor)... so it's sort of a theory of people pleasing - you don't want other people to seem uncomfortable with your pain, so you accept drugs, I guess?


This is what I would guess. That Michele Odent article about partners not being present is the first thing I thought of when I read the title of the thread.


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## allisonrose (Oct 22, 2004)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Chavelamomela*
> 
> Dr. Michel Odent has spoken out against men/husbands being in the delivery room FOR MOST CASES.


Wow, that is interesting. My hubby is a bit on the lame duck end for labor support. Yeah, he did well at telling me that I was doing great. No, he didn't suggest pain relief (we'd previously discussed this). But he didn't know really what to do. He's not really into birth as some dads may be. I did end up opting for an epidural with my first birth. I was augmented with pit, the contractions were practically on top of each other and the nurse at the time was not helpful. If I'd had a doula or a different nurse or someone with more birth knowledge, perhaps that person could have helped me find another way to cope.

I'm due with my second and am planning a homebirth this time to avoid pit and lack of support. I suspect that my hubby will end up spending much of my second labor watching our toddler since he feels it's unnecesary to hire someone to watch our son. I'm beginning to feel that it's not such a bad thing...


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chavelamomela*
> 
> Dr. Michel Odent has spoken out against men/husbands being in the delivery room FOR MOST CASES.
> 
> ...


This is a HUGE assumption to make - that only the partners of good crunchy MDC members are worthy birth partners and honestly, is a bit offensive.

My husband, who was by my side for both of my labors, had no part in making my decision to receive an epidural and I highly doubt that a doctor or midwife would act on the demands of a dad to "do something" for his wife/partner's pain.


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## macandcheese (Jun 22, 2010)

I haven't read the other responses yet, but here's my theory:

Even if a birth partner (spouse or SO) is totally prepared and educated about labor, there's still some helplessness that creeps in. My DH is (imo) super prepared and aware of what to do and expect during labor and delivery, but he still talks about how he'll "freak out" if he sees me in pain. In a hospital setting (where interventions are a quick and easy option), I can see how any sort of cracking of the facade/lack of confidence in the process could also make me start to doubt myself and my abilities. If my normally strong DH is "freaking out," it might make me quicker to opt for drugs.

We're having a home birth, so if any freaking out does go on, my plan is to send him to the basement so I can concentrate


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## Mommy2Austin (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TCMoulton*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


1) I honestly don't think she meant it in that fashion, just that Michael Odent's words weren't meant to say that NO HUSBANDS/PARTNERS should ever be allowed in the delivery room, and that those of us with husbands/partners who were really awesome in the delivery room shouldn't take it to mean they shouldn't be there. Has nothing to do with being on MDC or being ultra crunchy or anything.

2) You would be surprised by how many Drs./Nurses would act on a father's demands...maybe not by straight up giving the wife meds, but putting serious effort to convince her she needs it/wants it and falling into consent. Happens more than you'd think.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:


> 2) You would be surprised by how many Drs./Nurses would act on a father's demands...maybe not by straight up giving the wife meds, but putting serious effort to convince her she needs it/wants it and falling into consent. Happens more than you'd think


I agree. I have seen nurses really work on moms to try to get them to get pain medication.


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## fireHC11 (Nov 21, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *phathui5*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Why is that? I mean, what is the motivation for a nurse or doctor to administer medical pain relief to a mother?


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fireHC11*
> 
> Thanks for the replies, ladies!
> 
> ...


I think for this to mean anything at all to me, I would need to know how many birthing women have partners with them during labor. My first thought, is that most women giving birth have partners with them at the birth, and so most women who get pain relief would be the ones that have partners with them - right?

Or were the stat's normalized (is that the right word?) so that it just shows the % of each, and factors that in? I'm not sure if I explained that very well. IDK, I just think that most people get pain relief - might not necessarily have any relation to partners being present.


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## *MamaJen* (Apr 24, 2007)

That Michel Odent study was the first thing I thought of. He suggests that women need to be able to go to that other-wordly place during labor, and it's harder to do so if their male partner is around. I know it's kind of an unpopular view, but I actually sort of agree with it, at least for my own personal situation. I found it a lot easier to get into laborland when my partner wasn't by my side.

Really, I found that any intrusion into my little bubble actually made things hurt worse, even if the person was trying to be supportive. I just needed to be alone and zone out and as long as I could do that, everything was cool. I didn't want the midwife talking to me or my partner rubbing my back or anything.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JamieCatheryn*
> 
> Dr. Michel (sp?) Odent would say it's because laboring women have a harder time getting into the groove and a functional labor and can-do mindset if men are around. Except he'd say that in French and more professionally. For some that might actually be true, I do tend to feel more self confident with DH's support from afar than right there with me.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fireHC11*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Thats an easy one - insurance pays for interventions, they don't pay for people not to get interventions - Birth is a business, hospitals make more money off of birth, than anything else (I read that somewhere, don't know where). But they wouldn't make money off of it if they weren't getting paid by the intervention - a woman who gets no epi, no pit, no IV, has her baby and walks out 6-8 hours later, well, they don't get much in the way of $$ for her birth.


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## Lady Lilya (Jan 27, 2007)

I didn't want DH at my first birth, and I don't want him at my second. It definitely would distract me if I was worrying about him seeing me in pain.

We got a lot of flak for my decision the first time around. In fact, even the midwife didnt respect my wishes, and kept trying to get him to come.

It bothers me that men at births is seen by so many as the only option, while only 3 years ago no men at births was the only option. Wasn't the point to increase options? Not change one for another?


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Super~Single~Mama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


It's not even that necessarily: a woman with an epidural (snoozing in bed or chatting with her support people, hooked up to monitors that read out at the nurse's station) is a lot less work for the nurses than one who is up and walking, feeling every contraction, moving around so the monitors slip, and asking for help with comfort techniques. Keep in mind, too, that many hospitals are undersupplied with nursing staff. If you have four nurses working an L&D unit with eight beds, and all of those beds are full on a given night, those nurses have a problem. They can manage it by having two nurses circulate on the floor and two ride the monitors and respond to patient calls... but if more than one or two of those women are having natural births, the staffing problem is critical.

On top of that, nurses and doctors generally aren't fans of seeing people suffer. They have this tool which could make the patient comfortable, and their training is to approach pain as a problem that should be fixed ("the fifth vital sign" and all). I don't think that's a flaw in most medical training, although I can see where it's an issue in obstetrics.


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## Lucy&Jude'sMama (Jun 4, 2010)

delete


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## lemonapple (Aug 19, 2008)

I had a long labor...very uncomfortable right from the beginning thanks to back labor. I thought I didn't need a doula because my partner was very on-board about a natural birth...midwives, birth center, etc... Basically, what I wanted, he intended to help me get.

Buuuttt...he was frankly no help whatsoever during the nearly 24 hours of "early" labor. He basically slept the whole time because he didn't think there was anything he could do as I wasn't so uncomfortable that he thought it was serious. Nevermind that I was too uncomfortable to SLEEP myself! lol, We were finally transferred over to the hospital for pitocin, and it's my theory that the pitocin wasn't necessary. We were on it for an hour? maybe? and I had dilated to 6 cm from a HARD WON 3cm. I had the pitocin turned off and I birthed my son naturally with the suddenly AMAZING support of my husband in just 8 hours.

My theory is that I was actually really unprepared for back labor. It took me by COMPLETE surprise and felt like NOTHING I'd ever read. I spent the first 12 hours kidding myself that it was just Braxton Hicks and walking non-stop. I needed someone to understand what I was going through, to sympathize, to massage, to make me eat, to get me EXCITED about what was happening and somehow rest up for the next stages. Instead dp SLEPT! In the hospital, he had to act the role of support...and did a beautiful job, but I needed that to happen in the beginning! Had we waited longer at home, I imagine I would have been even more exhausted/probably angry at him and less likely to suck it up and stick to my own plans.

We're planning a female-only birth next go around. Having trained as a doula, I know that's exactly what I need to birth...female understanding and companionship. I imagine the same help I think that sort of birth would get me must be true for single women....the experience of my son's birth and my doula work with single women is that their support person is normally a close female relative or female friend. And, even if the support woman hasn't gone through a birth, she's likely to exude excitement, sympathy, and even crack jokes...not to mention , they get right in there with the touching! And, maybe I'm going on a limb here, but the support women I see EXPECT there to be noise, sweat, blood, and discomfort. Things I'm not always sure the most prepared man REALLY is ready to handle.


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## tireesix (Apr 27, 2006)

OK, for baby number one, DH was there and I ended up with pharmacological pain relief because I wanted it, I think part of the decision was because he was worried and didn't know what to do and was concerned about me but man, that labour hurt!!!!!!!!

Baby number 2 was a homebirth, I used gas and air but it ran out before DD2 was actually born and I only managed to have about a 1/4 of a can anyway because it wasn't working properly. DH didn't like seeing me in pain but he was mighty proud of me managing to birth with so little relief.

Both the above births were pretty hard going but:

Baby number 3, another home birth but no one was around, DH was either asleep, having a coffee outside or in the bath, I saw him for perhaps an hour during the 5 hour labour lolol. MW wasn't around until 10 mins or so after the birth and DH appeared from his bath about 5 mins after the baby was born. While again it hurt like hell, it was the easiest birth by far, so, I do kinda believe the Michel Odent thing about guys not being around during labour, I found it much easier. DH has always been very pro home brith, he was also very proud when ever I birthed with little or no pain relief and he has always been impressed about me birthing in silence (I don't know why because he always complains I am not noisy enough during sex?????). With DD3 I just felt able to be a bit more free, I was less inhibited (still very quiet because I didn't want to disturb anyone), it was just more comfortable. I would have loved for DH to be there, maybe it wasn't the lack of DH being around but the lack of having a MW around that made it easier because I wasn't being poked and prodded????

I reckon there are numerous reasons, women not liking there husbands seeing them in pain, men not liking to see their partners in pain, women wanting to appear more 'dignified' or summat during the birth in front of their husbands.


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## Chavelamomela (Sep 25, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mommy2Austin*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Thanks Mommy2Austin for explaining. My words had nothing to do with MDC-specific/crunchy/hippie birthing moms (or whoever you think I was referring to). I was referring to those exceptionally supportive, wonderful and super-terrific husbands that have been there as crucial support for their wives' natural labors. Some of us have those types of men, others don't, and its not a criticism of either, just an observation (nor is it a connection to how crunchy that person is...). I was referring to Michel Odent's advice, because in general, it DOES have merit - that most husbands may not belong in the birthing room, but allowing for exceptions such as those husbands who have been crucial birth support for some women.


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## raelize (Jun 17, 2006)

ITA with mommy2austin. i hb both my kids, but i know with the first i was so focused on everyone else, i didn't do that work i needed ot and it was HARD and long. withthe second i had learned tojust seclude myself and it worked very well. i am sure there were other factors that made dd2's birth easier, but i was better able to handle it when i was alone.


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MeepyCat*
> 
> It's not even that necessarily: a woman with an epidural (snoozing in bed or chatting with her support people, hooked up to monitors that read out at the nurse's station) is a lot less work for the nurses than one who is up and walking, feeling every contraction, moving around so the monitors slip, and asking for help with comfort techniques.


Yup, exactly! That same mama also won't be moaning or screaming in pain. I've heard stories of nurses telling mamas to be quiet because they're disturbing the other patients!

I would imagine the mama with the epi is also easier to deal with in terms of being "obedient" with things like submitting to hourly vaginal exams & has less room to protest giving pit to or doing AROM in order to speed things up (& hospitals really seem to 'push' birth & usually want to speed it up.)


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MegBoz*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Y'know, that description really does not match my experience of hospital birth at *all*. Having the epidural actually facilitated my refusal of pitocin - because I was alert, calm and undistracted by pain, I was able to object immediately and coherently when the subject came up (and the nurses even backed me). The only vaginal exams I had were on request (I wanted to know if I was dilated enough to push). I wasn't particularly obedient (or quiet at the end), and no one said a thing. They helped me push for five hours, and two nurses and one doctor stayed three hours past the end of their shifts to see me through. My second delivery is a whole 'nother kind of war story (emergency surgery), but everyone was really nice during that too.

I know that I'm lucky in having had good experiences, but I want to point out that they do happen - the hospital staff is not automatically the enemy.


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## [email protected] (Sep 7, 2010)

In my case, I had both an epidural and my partner present for my son's birth b/c I wanted all the support I could get. To me, having both the epi and hubby felt like a complete experience for me, and helped me relax and enjoy the process.


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## mmaramba (May 17, 2005)

Having skimmed the thread, I'd have to agree with some of the likely contributing factors discussed here:

1) Single mothers and young mothers (21 or younger-- who are also more likely to be single and vice versa) are more likely to be treated as lower priorities and even (on occasion) "punished" with the delay of anesthesia. On the positive side (also leading to less use of drugs), if these women are neglected/given less "attention," (including intervention) they may also be able to get into a labor groove and cope well enough with labor pain on their own. As a corollary, though it is anecdotal, it sometimes seems that young FTMs (who are less likely to have male partners) have been less polluted with ideas about the necessity of epidurals, and are more likely to rebel against authority and do what they want, which may include avoiding big scary needles. If they haven't heard 1000 stories about how they NEED epis (because an 18 year old has had fewer peers with kids than a 30 year old), they may cope better overall.

2) Women with male partners are less likely to be able to "let go" and be uninhibited (think of all the women mortified of their husbands seeing them poop, or even seeing the baby come out at all), creating higher levels of stress and therefore pain, etc.

3) Women with male partners are more likely to want to calm their partners' fears about pain and "imminent disaster."

4) Male partners have a tendency, on average, to be more willing enforcers of the policies of those in positions of authority. Especially given that they have never been in the position of birthing themselves, they are even more likely than women to believe that doctors/hospitals only ever do and suggest things that are safe and beneficial. Thus, the more pain relief is pushed, the more men are likely to also push it to their partners (again, just on average).

5) Married and long-term partnered women are more likely to have better insurance and thus given the "full treatment."


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## 2lilsweetfoxes (Apr 11, 2005)

When I went through labor with baby #3, I was at the absolute limit--my dd (age 7) and ds (age 5) were freaking out at the sight of mamma in labor and in pain). And, I knew I only had a few more hours left, so let's get some drugs (aka, an epidural) so that I can "enjoy" the labor. (suffice it to say, I had the baby a few minutes later, no drugs...not even time to get the IV inserted)


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## soso-lynn (Dec 11, 2007)

Parents who are in a couple need to compromise. Women who otherwise would never think of mutilating their sons will do it in exchange for the right to co-sleep or some other thing. This process of continually having to compromise can make women less in tune with their instincts and more likely to end up with interventions. I am sure that many women here have had to fight their husbands for a homebirth or a VBAC. It seems that the one who needs to provide evidence is always the one who wants to deviate from the norm and right now the norm is to get an epidural. Single women only need to convince themselves while in couples, two people need to be on board.


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## AlexisT (May 6, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Super~Single~Mama*
> 
> Thats an easy one - insurance pays for interventions, they don't pay for people not to get interventions - Birth is a business, hospitals make more money off of birth, than anything else (I read that somewhere, don't know where). But they wouldn't make money off of it if they weren't getting paid by the intervention - a woman who gets no epi, no pit, no IV, has her baby and walks out 6-8 hours later, well, they don't get much in the way of $$ for her birth.


Maternity is a net loss for hospitals. This is why many hospitals have closed their L&D departments. It's only a money-raiser in the sense that maternity services are more consumer oriented and the customers have the ability to be choosy. Hospitals sell their maternity services because they want to create loyal customers for services that are profitable (cardiac care and oncology lead the table; maternity and ER are the big losers). The NYT had a table the other day showing what a NJ insurer paid for various procedures. An SVD went for $2-3K. Medicaid will pay half that. If L&D had to be self-sufficient we would not be seeing the shiny new wings with private LDRPs. The payments for the interventions add to the gross total, but that doesn't mean it covers the cost of providing them. Birth is a business, but it's not a very good one.

Money does come into it in terms of utilization. If you're going to provide a 24/7 anesthesiology service, which patients want (forget epidurals--they don't want to be waiting for the anesthesiologist in an emergency) you need to have enough demand to justify the cost of keeping that anesthesiologist in the hospital. Most nurses and doctors don't actively make that kind of calculation--an administrator will crunch the numbers and decide what's economic to provide. But it has been demonstrated that availability of services and procedures affect the care that HCPs provide. When a hospital gets a new CT scanner, they do more CT scans. HCPs practice according to the standards of their peers, whether it's a conscious effort (as in hospitals where the head of department starts a program to reduce use of a procedure) or unconscious--copying what they see. Money is part of the cultural matrix, but it is not a conscious decision.


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## happysmileylady (Feb 6, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *2lilsweetfoxes*
> 
> When I went through labor with baby #3, I was at the absolute limit--my dd (age 7) and ds (age 5) were freaking out at the sight of mamma in labor and in pain). And, I knew I only had a few more hours left, so let's get some drugs (aka, an epidural) so that I can "enjoy" the labor. (suffice it to say, I had the baby a few minutes later, no drugs...not even time to get the IV inserted)


You know, I wonder if this might also be a contributing factor...the other kids. I don't know statistics but I would guest that when compared to each other, women who are married/have long term partners, are also likely to have older kids. When I had my last one, my middle one was 2 and I knew there was no way that I could have had her in the room at all. So she wasn't present, I didn't see her at all the entire time I was in labor, until I had the baby. I think that other women in the same situation might choose seeing their kids while in labor, over no meds.


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## sunnygir1 (Oct 8, 2007)

Other than what's been mentioned, I don't see any reason for that to be true. I guess I was conscious of my husband's discomfort, but it never crossed my mind to take medication to alleviate it. And my husband never suggested it either. The hospital staff offered once, but that was all.

I feel like if the husband/partner were the only person there who knew the laboring woman it might be a little more likely that she would than if a doula, mother, or sister were there because the woman might feel more "pressure" (or "support") to do the right thing or tough it out in front of another mother or natural birth professional.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

The Michel Odent article is an interesting one. One of the reasons he gives is that men seem territorial and stressed - he doesn't seem to recognise that he makes these observations from a position between the man's partner's thighs! He also doesn't advocate male Ob's not being around for labour. I think he is a wonderful intelligent man and has made many fabulous observations in the cause of normal birth, but i also think he is human and also can be a victim of subjectivity. How many UPing women report their husband was territorial and stressed during their births? It's such an intimate situation, and very hard for ANYone to negotiate, male or female. How is the husband supposed to act when another man gives his partner a VE which obviously causes her pain? How is he meant to act when he sees his partner in pain and feels he is being observed by the strangers who staff the hospital they are at?

I prepared my DP not by warning him of blood or gore or poo, or by telling him about screaming or agony. I told him to imagine i was running a marathon. Imagine i trained for a long time, and really really wanted to run this marathon. I said, i need you to be my supporter, my cheerleader. I need you to know that the pain i will go through is pain i embrace as part of the task of the marathon. I need you to view that pain as part of my achievement, not an optional thing i should avoid. We are both runners/exercisers and both have trained through moderate discomfort to be fit for things we really wanted to achieve.

It worked. He was amazing, start to finish. He was low-key but attentive. Light-hearted but careful with me. He responded to my requests instantly and throughout whenever he felt disconnected from me or concerned he would come and be with me a little and we would reconnect (two strong memories of the birth - one in the middle of the night, i was contracting only every 10minutes and dozing in between and i would wake and groan at each contraction - he was sleeping, spooning me, but would wake and tighten his arms around me every time, i felt completely anchored and loved, and later on, when i was nearing full dilation, i bellowed through a contraction and when i opened my eyes his concerned face was close to mine, i smiled at his funny frowny concern and he laughed and we were Us again). We were at home, in HIS house, and the MW was our welcome guest.

I would have to see the study to guess whether it was socio-economic/pain-as-punishment-for-naughty-girls or women trying to appease partners, but i will say that i have worked in hospitals and the number one reason i have seen for staff offering pain relief is that they are human, they don't like to see suffering, and want to alleviate it (i'm in the UK, epidurals COST the system and make no money). My own MW is independent and carries, theoretically, gas and air, but she is in a unique position of being able to build a personal relationship with her ladies, so she is much better able to support them without the use of drugs.


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## BarefootScientist (Jul 24, 2007)

All of the things mentioned here are interesting ideas, and I would have to see the study to really form an opinion, but I did want to point out that we are most likely talking about a general population of birthers here, not necessarily people desiring a natural birth. So we, as people posting on the "Birth and Beyond" board at MDC







may be looking at it from a different perspective. Something like 70% of the people in this country (was it a US study?) get epidurals right? So it's safe to assume that the percentage of people who are committed to natural birth are at least a minority. So perhaps they WANT epidurals. Which gets into the single women being treated not-as-well argument.

Not only that, but I think the average DH is just not a good birth partner. I know a lot of you mentioned the wanting to fix the pain aspect but not even that - just that they have no idea what to do! Most women are not in the least prepared for labor, and neither are most partners. We even took a basic hospital-based birth class for our first, and my DH was totally useless in labor. I wonder if a lot of the issue might be that there is such a huge expectation on men to be such a supportive presence, and they just don't know what to do. If a woman buys into the cultural expectation that her DH is supposed to be her rock during labor, she could end up being disappointed, and getting a lot less support than she was expecting. That could certainly contribute to the choice of an epidural, IMO.

That's what I think.


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## CBEmomma (Oct 24, 2010)

I'd like to see a detailed study about that, would be interesting. When I was a Doula I mostly worked with married moms, only had a few single clients. I noticed a trend with the husbands that they wanted their wives to take pain medicaiton so they didn't have to see them in pain. Their wives taken pain medication was mostly for the husbands piece of mind. I worked with several homebirth couples and the husbands seem to cope with their wives in pain a lot better, maybe it was because they were in a familiar place and had more options to move around.


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## elanorh (Feb 1, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BarefootScientist*
> 
> All of the things mentioned here are interesting ideas, and I would have to see the study to really form an opinion, but I did want to point out that we are most likely talking about a general population of birthers here, not necessarily people desiring a natural birth. So we, as people posting on the "Birth and Beyond" board at MDC
> 
> ...


Well, despite the 70% rate (or is it higher?) - I don't think that all 70% go in wanting the epidural, or not committed to a natural birth. When I was pregnant with dd1, about 1/3 of my friends who'd had babies told me OMG YOU MUST GET AN EPI. And about 1/3 told me - go natural (excepting my family, who are all NCB folks and would seriously skew the numbers as we're a large family).

I've several friends who wanted a natural birth but "hospital happened." So they ended up with pitocin, pitocin and epi (or other pain med), or etc. They researched it, they took the classes, they thought they were prepared - and they had an epi anyway.  One friend who's had 6 babies has described her experiences - she went in wanting natural births. First two were inductions that rapidly became epidurals. Five involved pitocin. ONE was completely natural, no pitocin to 'augment' contractions, no epidural. Her recollections of how things went down (and again this is all anecdotal although it involves several different hospitals) is that her natural birth was assisted by several nurses who were supportive. They believed her, and when she was struggling to manage pain, they suggested alternate strategies (walk, birth ball, etc.). Her last birth, she made it nearly to transition before deciding she wanted an epidural. She said that in retrospect, having *had* births without epidurals and one without pitocin, she should have known to get up and move around, etc. to manage pain --- but she was in laborland and didn't think of it. And the nurses wouldn't let her limit their fetal monitoring, and disrupted her 'zone' in labor asking all sorts of questions, and when she was in pain immediately told her she should get an epidural, etc. In this case, a husband who'd seen several babies born with epidurals and didn't think it was a big deal - and a mom in pain and a staff who thought she ought to just get it already, all contributed.

I've read that something like 80% of births in American hospitals use pitocin to manage labor prior to birth --- that alone ought to be increasing the likelihood of a mother requesting an epidural, regardless of her intentions before she arrived at the hospital and was given the pitocin!

It would be interesting to know how many mothers hope for a natural labor -- and how many go in planning for their epidurals. Anecdotally, from among my friends, I'd say that about half of my friends wanted (or were at least open to) natural labor, and about 1/3 were in the "give me drugs before the labor even starts" category. But not all of my friends who wanted natural labor got it - two recently had c/s, in fact, one for breech and one for "cascade of interventions = failure to progress." Both were really excited about a natural, intervention-free birth. But, both were pregnant with their first and not comfortable taking the leap to work with a birth center or homebirth midwife.

One thing I found interesting with one of my friends who had an epidural - she is very, very modest. As in, kissed her husband for the first time on the wedding altar. She labored in a birth center for over 24 hours before a hospital transfer. Got an epidural, and had her baby shortly afterwards. I am convinced that she was inhibited by giving birth in a strange place etc. with strange people - and once she wasn't able to feel/control as much, she relaxed and gave birth. She went on to have two more babies, both natural births.


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## BarefootScientist (Jul 24, 2007)

elenorh, absolutely, it's true that we can't say that all 70% of women who get an epidural intended to when they started out. Of course. But I don't think we can say that most of them intended natural birth either. I really think the norm in this country is a managed, take the pain away birth. Your friends may not really be an unbiased sample. Of course, my experience isn't either. I did try to do a quick search to see how many women WANT epidurals and couldn't find anything...but my point was that the norm and the expectation is an epidural, so our viewpoint here of seeing epidural as non-ideal may be off-base from what the women in the study were thinking. At least that's the general feeling I get from our culture. I could be wrong.

ETA: Ok, I did find a babycenter poll. Real scientific, I know.  It asked, "will you have an epidural during labor?" 55% said yes, 23% said no, and 21% said I don't know yet. So less than 1/4 of women were committed to natural birth. Even if all the "I don't know"s became committed to natural birth, that's still less than half of the total.


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## Lady Lilya (Jan 27, 2007)

My SIL planned to have a natural birth. She knew that I had had one (at home). She ended up with an epidural. Afterwards, she asked me how I could possibly have done it without pain meds. I told her that from what I hear it is a very different sort of experience in a hospital, and you can't really get into the state of being where it is easier to deal with the pain.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GoBecGo*
> 
> The Michel Odent article is an interesting one. One of the reasons he gives is that men seem territorial and stressed - he doesn't seem to recognise that he makes these observations from a position between the man's partner's thighs! He also doesn't advocate male Ob's not being around for labour. I think he is a wonderful intelligent man and has made many fabulous observations in the cause of normal birth, but i also think he is human and also can be a victim of subjectivity. How many UPing women report their husband was territorial and stressed during their births? It's such an intimate situation, and very hard for ANYone to negotiate, male or female. How is the husband supposed to act when another man gives his partner a VE which obviously causes her pain? How is he meant to act when he sees his partner in pain and feels he is being observed by the strangers who staff the hospital they are at?


Actually, AFAIK, he does advocate for no male ob's and even gave up practicing because he believed his being male was a hindrance to the birth process...


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## carrierwright (Nov 29, 2010)

I would be interested to see biases/controls, etc in such a study. If you look at Bradley birth stats for instance you'll see that the presence of the husband who has been prepared to help his wife in labor for at least 3 months prior to birth, their rates for unmedicated vaginal deliveries is over 85%, which I would argue is much much improved when compared to the rest of the nation. Be interested in looking it over ~Perhaps the difference is preparation.


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