# I'm losing my child.



## blessedwinter (Jun 21, 2008)

I am so frustrated. My oldest is 6yo and things have been a constant struggle with her from the time she was 18 months or so. She has such a STRONG personality, and has since birth. She is the only one of my 4 children who came out SCREAMING PISSED OFF after I gave birth. She refused to sleep on her own from day 1, and she's had very strong preferences since she was in the womb. Even so, I exclusively nursed her for 7 months, continued nursing until she was a year, slept with her every night for the first 10 months, and treated her with the uttermost kindness and nurturing. I have videos of her from during that time period where she will look at me like she's absolutely disgusted by me, when all I did was give her all of myself.

She still has the attitude that she is above us, as her parents. Negotiating is not an option. I'm thinking I fostered that during her first 2 years when I treated her like the greatest thing to ever walk the planet. Since then, we've been trying to reign her in, but are failing. She has never really thrown the screaming, foaming at the mouth temper tantrums, she's way too smart for that. She just gets sneaky and manipulative which drives me up the wall. I have 3 other children to care for, I cannot and do not want to give her the attention and praise she feels like she deserves. She thinks she's queen of the household.

The real wake up call was when my sister took her for several hours 2 days in a row earlier this week, to play with her kids. We had a different house. For once, someone wasn't all over us every second to serve her and give her whatever she happened to want at that exact second. Bugging, bugging, bugging, incessantly. We didn't have someone demanding her way and whining and being dramatic and complaining about every little thing. It was...wonderful. Peaceful. I actually ENJOYED being around my other kids for once, usually I feel like I want to crawl out of my skull whenever I'm around them, because she's always right there, being obnoxious.

I'm sure this sounds awful, but I feel so lost. I've tried every method. I was a part of a very legalistic board for 2 years, and that never worked for us. They said I wasn't getting results because I wasn't "dedicated to my children" but I'm convinced it's because she will not submit- ever.

I feel like I need to set boundries in the household because she will walk over everyone to get her way. She is selfish with her brothers, and now my second oldest is starting to take after her.







I've always been so committed to homeschooling, and being together as a family and fostering family relationships above outside relationships, but now I'm seriously thinking about putting her in school, just to get a break. That really breaks my heart, I don't know why everything has to be so hard with her. The only thing that makes her happy is being around other kids all the time. Playing with her brothers, going to the park with us, having movie night, nothing is good enough for her. No matter how hard I try, she just wants more.

I'm honestly sick and tired of it.


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)




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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

I'm so sorry. I don't have a child with that personality or of that age, but one thing you wrote stood out:

Quote:

The only thing that makes her happy is being around other kids all the time.
I can't speak to behavior modification, discipline, or the many other issues that come up in your post. But it seems to me that she might really enjoy school if she likes being around kids. She might really benefit from seeing how they interact, and from being able to test her limits with another adult. Why not put her in school, if she thrives in a social environment? Maybe that's what she needs.

Everyone is different. There's nothing wrong with liking a lot of social stimulation. It's not what you expected when you had the imaginary baby in your belly, but then, it doesn't sound like the rest is, either.

I had also dreamed of homeschooling my thoughtful, introspective child, until I realized, when she was about nine months or so, that that was not going to happen because I did not have that child. She LOVES being with other kids. She just adores it. She could eat eye-contact, and drink conversation. There's no way I could deny her at least four hours a day with other kids every day. I don't think that's the best way to get her S.A.T. scores up, but hey, we'll have to do alternatives.

Good luck.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

have you read Raising your Spirited child?

http://www.amazon.com/Raising-Your-S...9702576&sr=8-1


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## jrose_lee (Oct 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
have you read Raising your Spirited child?

http://www.amazon.com/Raising-Your-S...9702576&sr=8-1


I second this reccomendation

Sometimes this even goes along with it and may play a part (you will know if it fits your child by the quiz...might not, just throwing it out there)

http://www.hsperson.com/pages/child.htm


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## FancyD (Apr 22, 2005)

School is *not* the end of the world.







If it's what she needs, then help her meet that need (see my sig).

Here's a thread you might like...
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=952995

ETA Had to add 'not' to the above sentence...


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## Hemiola (Aug 29, 2004)

Playful Parenting by Lawrence Cohen might really help y'all connect again and reverse negative behaviors you have both developed. It certainly helped at our house! See if your library has a copy


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## Enudely (Jul 2, 2005)

:
Wow, that sounds terrible. I second the ideas of sending her to school and reading "raising your spirited child". Maybe you can find a way to spend more time with your other kids, and you will be refreshed when you have time with her again?

If you can find a good school, it sounds like she would love it. Sorry I can't help more!


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

For heaven's sake, put her in school and feel good about it if that is what she prefers! If you were intending to homeschool because you thought it would be best for her, and she really wants to be around other children all the time, you don't have to and shouldn't stick to homeschooling just because it's what you planned.

My mother asked me a few times every year if I wanted her to homeschool me. Each time I said no, and at 13 I asked to go to boarding school, which I loved. Now I'm in my millionth year of grad school and plan to become a professor. Some of us are just the school type. It doesn't reflect on you as a parent. My parents are great, and I like school. No dichotomy.


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## bobandjess99 (Aug 1, 2005)

I agree..try school.
My dd sounds just like yours.....she went to school today for the first time.
Although i sobbed, LOL, the little bit of time when she wasnt here and i was composed..was so nice, so calm, so wonderful. Ds got to play without being wrangled, strangled, bossed around by her..I got to THINK for a second without havig her up in my face every single second.....ahhhhh.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
have you read Raising your Spirited child?

http://www.amazon.com/Raising-Your-S...9702576&sr=8-1

I want to third this recommendation! This book changed the way I see my daughter. I always thought that she didn't like me. I couldn't get connected to her and I sometimes had guilty thoughts that I wish I hadn't had her. Reading this book made me realize that she's such an intense individual with passion and sensitivity. She's really an amazing person, but she's just really different from me. I've found different ways to connect with her and it's working.

A good video to watch is Alfie Kohn's "Unconditional Parenting" It'll help you learn to deal with and appreciate a willful, non-submissive child.

Good luck...no guilt!
Lisa


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## Corrie6 (Aug 25, 2008)

I agree about school. I dreamed of homeschooling both of my kids too, but it never happened for various reasons. Now I realize that me and my 11 year old would kill each other anyways (you can read my thread about the grief he's causing my family!).

I know just how you feel, some parent/child combinations are just not that compatible, and it makes us feel terribly guilty, but the kid just drives us nuts! Of course that doesn't mean we don't love them bunches, but me and my 11 year old clash a lot.

Good luck!


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I honestly don't know what I would do, but I wanted to give you a hug!

That sounds very challenging.

I would not be opposed to trying school if that is clearly what she wants. On the other hand I would be prepared for the possibility that her behavior at home remains the same. School *might* solve the problems at home, but it's not a clear 1+1=2 solution. You say she has been like this since a toddler, and she does have siblings and long playdates outside the home so...there might be some other factors that won't change just because she goes to school. Depending on what those factors might be, her behavior could actually worsen at home. However, I am just looking at both sides, not saying you shouldn't try school. It might be exactly what she needs. I would proceed with realistic expectations.

I am curious if you ever had her tested for allergies or dietary sensitivities? Also, how much sleep does she get? I have read posts by parents with a child who was literally like night and day in terms of behavior changes when underlying allergies or sleep problems were discovered and remedied.

Also, you said you tried a 'legalistic' approach for two years...if by that you mean you were very punitive and controlling during that time, and it did not work, I am curious about how that might have contributed to where you are at now. Do you think you became overly 'permissive' as a backlash to the legalistic era? Like you just felt overwhelmed by the fact that it didn't work, and now you find her every behavior excessively draining? Do you think you burned yourself out during the legalistic two years?

Lastly what I would keep in mind is that she really cannot be satisfied if things are as negative as you describe. I know you said she is relentlessly whiny and demanding, but those are *not* signs of self satisfaction. She might seem to smirk or laugh when she gets her way but deep down that cannot be fulfilling. You said the family was happier when she went away for two days, and on some level she probably senses it. There may be a family cycle going at this point that has all of you stuck in a 'rut' together, playing out the same cycle of interactions, with nobody really feeling happy about, but nobody knows how to break out of the pattern at this point.

When I have been in that situation the best solution was some really deep soul searching and asking for inner wisdom about what I could do to shift the family in a new direction. You know your family best, and your insights are probably more accurate than anything we could tell you in this thread. Sometimes it is the oddest things that make the biggest difference. We had a rough patch once with ds, and we started to have these sort of 'talking stick' sessions, where we set aside a specific time, and he could talk about whatever he wanted, and we were not allowed to criticize or judge, but just had to listen and acknowledge what he said. It made an immediate and dramatic difference in his behavior. Every child is different.

Sorry this post is so long--maybe something in here is of help to you. I didn't want to read and not respond


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## _betsy_ (Jun 29, 2004)

Something tells me I'll be right there with you in about 4 years.

DD has been an intense, alert, active, high needs, spirited child since Day 1. Very active and strong presence even in the womb. She has ALWAYS wanted MORE. (Though LESS sleep, of course!) It has been a challenge, and she's not even 2 yet.

I have a copy of Raising Your Spirited Child, but haven't gotten a chance to read past about page 3.


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## crunchymomofmany (May 24, 2007)

I, too, would be very tempted to send my child to school - I have a very challenging set of boys and occasionally think that I might just need to send them to school to get them out of my hair. But then I remember what happened when I did. Believe it or not - they actually became worse. School tends to encourage these behaviors in children and while she might be "out of your hair" for the day...you might find that you continue to "lose" her more. Indeed, her sense of superiority might increase because she doesn't see how she's creating chaos.

I would be firm, but consistent with her. I also don't allow conversations to continue until I am being spoken to nicely. I will walk away, put my hand up, or say "I'm sorry, are you speaking to me in that tone?" If they say "yes." I say, "um...try again." I don't yell, but I let them know by my tone that I'm not frakking around. I've also been known to go "nose to nose" with the attitude-giver and say, in a very nice voice, "please don't speak to me like that."
I would encourage quiet times - especially during the homeschool day. Also, one-on-one times with the children - even if only for 15 minutes or so. Continually engaging a particularly challenging child on their terms is often what brings about such behavior. It is no sin to walk away - or to tell a child to go away until they can speak kinder - or stop asking for something.

Being firm is not ungentle...it is often necessary!


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessedwinter* 
SCREAMING PISSED OFF


Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessedwinter* 
I have videos of her from during that time period where she will look at me like she's absolutely disgusted by me, when all I did was give her all of myself.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessedwinter* 
She just gets sneaky and manipulative which drives me up the wall.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessedwinter* 
I have 3 other children to care for, I cannot and do not want to give her the attention and praise she feels like she deserves.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessedwinter* 
For once, someone wasn't all over us every second to serve her and give her whatever she happened to want at that exact second.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessedwinter* 
she's always right there, being obnoxious.

I highlighted these sentences because they stood out to me. I cannot imagine that your daughter is in a home where she feels loved and wanted because I'm sure the feelings you've posted here come out in your interactions with her. How could they not?

I will give you another interpretation that I get from reading. You feel that you are loving and giving all the time and in return wanted a child who would fit your image of her. She doesn't, so you're angry and frustrated at her. Everything she does bugs you.

I don't know the answer, but I think you need to take a step back and look at how you're viewing your child - and therefore how you're interacting with her. What did your sister say? Did your daughter act out there? How is she with other people?

Is she in any activities? If she really enjoys being with other children, then perhaps more social outlets would make her better.

Also, and yes I'm sure it's a common piece of advice, but have you considered whether you might have post-partum depression. You have a lot on your plate. Four kids six and under is a lot, and I see that the last birthdate you've mentioned is 2008.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessedwinter* 
but I'm convinced it's because she will not submit- ever.

I suppose it's all about what you want, but my goal is not submission. We don't live consensually, but we do practice GD. I cannot imagine ever thinking that I want my children to submit. My son would not survive an environment like that. Yes, there are times when I make rules, and I expect my children to do as I ask, but I'm almost always (danger being the exception) open to discussion about my decisions. Those discussions are on a preschool-level now, but I assume they'll mature as I grow. With my son, the more you push, the more he pushes back. It's his personality, and it's not something I want to change. I view my role more as to take who he is - and was born to be - and give him the tools to become a wonderful person. We typically view our decisions in long-term consequences if that makes sense. What do I want to see from my children as adults? And then move backward.


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## blessedwinter (Jun 21, 2008)

Thank you all for the help and support.

Yes, I have read RYSC but it's been a couple years, I'll need to re-read it. I actually have a copy of Playful Parenting, I just haven't read it yet, so those will be on my "to read" list.

I agree with you Mish, I go between basically knowing school will make her worse, and just wanting to go ahead with it to get her out of my hair. I've noticed when she has extended periods of time around other kids (like the last few days) it seems she gets even more "revved up" and just goes totally ballistic at home. Her whining, requests and demands just intensify. Being around other children definitely energizes her, but I'm not sure if that's a good thing given our current problems...? I think it must make her even more tired or something, so she freaks out even more at home. It's so hard because she thrives off relationships, but it's so hard (for me) to connect with such an intense individual. And this is my CHILD, I never dreamed it could be like this.

I don't suspect any food allergies, and I've been watchful of that for awhile. I DO think she is sleep deprived, since she forces herself to stay awake for so long, and wakes so early in the morning. She's also an incredibly light sleeper (like me, ugh). I do think the tiredness could be accentuating her behavior problems, but I don't think it's the reason for it. I think that's just her personality. Yay.

Thanks again everyone.


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## blessedwinter (Jun 21, 2008)

Brandi, I know I sounded frustrated in my post because I AM. I'm at the end of myself and that's why I'm writing. I AM frustrated with my child. I'm sure she does sense that at times, but I honestly try to be as loving, calm and gentle as I possibly can in every interaction even though sometimes I want to scream "LEAVE ME ALONE."

Other people cannot stand very long around her, because of her intensity, even her doting grandmothers. I was told when she was 2 (by a mother of 5) that she has the strongest will of any child this other mom had seen. I know that can be a good thing as she gets older, it's just figuring out how to live with it in a house where 5+ other people also need their needs met. It can't all be about her all the time.

When I said "submit" I meant to other people, in general. To their wishes and needs, not only her own.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

It sounds like it's just a personality clash. Have you read about MBTI? I wonder if reading about different personality types would help? There's even a book about parents and children and MBTI, but I don't know the name. I have friends who have a daughter who has personality type that doesn't mesh well with theirs and it is a struggle for them too.

If she wants school, I'd put her in there, personally. Let her try it and see how it goes. Nothing has to be permanent - if it doesn't go well you can always pull her out again.

Good luck.


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## christyc (Mar 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchymomofmany* 
I, too, would be very tempted to send my child to school - ... School tends to encourage these behaviors in children and while she might be "out of your hair" for the day...you might find that you continue to "lose" her more.

That may have been your experience, but it's not a universal. My challenging child, who had many behaviors similar to what the OP described with her own child, just started first grade last week (we have been hardcore homeschoolers for 8 of the 9 years preceding). We put them in school this year primarily because we began to realize the destructive effect his older siblings were having on him at home together all the time (lots of rivalry, lots of comparisons), and realized that he needed his own space. His behavior has been GREAT at school so far, and the fighting at home has lessened. He's becoming more independent (in just one week, yes), doing more for himself, seems to have better self esteem, and is getting a little better at respecting me. What's more, since I have several hours a day without him, I have a little time to listen to gentle discipline and parenting podcasts, read some parenting books, get my head in a better place, and be a much more loving mother when he does get home. I'm finding that having that little bit of time away from my 3 oldest each day USUALLY helps me mentally rejuvinate, and I'm a million times better as a mom when I'm with them than I was when I was homeschooling. I'm actually *enjoying* my relationship with my spirited child now, at least 75-90 percent of the time, and am learning to admire him again.

That is VERY HARD for me to say, because I've always been 100% pro-homeschooling, and also because homeschooling with my oldest two was always a blessing, never a challenge. Somehow, though, the family dynamic in the past few years had changed to the point where I had to recognize changes were required. I now firmly believe that there is not ONE right way for all kids. Public school _can_ (but doesn't always) lend itself to some negative behaviors, but guess what? So can homeschooling under a particular set of circumstances, and so can private school under a particular set of circumstances. The magic lies in figuring out what your circumstances really are at present, and being open-minded enough to figure out what will work best for your current family dynamic, circumstances, and needs. That may still turn out to be homeschooling, but it doesn't make you a failure if something else makes more sense as an educational solution for now.

One other thing to throw out there is that I think (now that I've had a little space to reflect on it all) that part of my problem with my spirited child is that he is 1) very much unlike my older two children, and 2) very much not like me. It was so much easier to parent my two older children, since they were a lot like me in terms of their interests, personalities, and emotional makeup. I knew much more intuitively what to do for them to help them through challenges. So, them being like me made it easier. He's so unlike me in many ways, it's just hard to know what to do. Plus, with my older two children, the same set of parenting tools worked very well on both of them. Now, very little of what worked for me in the past with my older two works as well for my 3rd child, so I'm having to completely relearn this parenting thing all over again from scratch, KWIM? Do you feel like you can relate to her at all? Maybe finding some activities the two of you can do together where her strengths are an asset (such as a sport or something high energy) would be good. That would put you into a positive place with her.

And the last thing I'd throw out there is that SURELY there have to be some old photos or videos of her when she was little and cute that you just get all warm and fuzzy looking at. I'd get a handful of those together and look at them every now and then, just to remind you of how precious and innocent she was. She still is, but is just going through a different stage. She still needs firmness, boundaries, and guidelines, but she also needs your love more than ever now. Rekindling a little of that lovey dovey spark you had when she was a newborn can make a world of difference. I have found that parenting my cutesie toddler twins now (which is much easier to do in a loving way than my 6 year old) reminds me of how precious motherhood is. Thinking of them the way I think of them has reminded me of how I used to think of my 3rd child when he was a little peanut, and remembering that has really helped me reconnect with him in a way we were both desperate for.

Sorry for the novel! Hope things start to look up for you soon!


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Your daughter sounds like an intense, challenging child, the kind of child who would be challenging for a parent of 1 or 2, and you have 4 (one newborn!).

First, I would _highly_ recommend the book: The Challenging Child: Understanding, Raising and Enjoying the Five "Difficult" Types of Children by Stanley Greenspan.
You can read excerpts from Google Books - I would scroll to page 124+ to read about "The Defiant Child", which may or may not describe your daughter. I would read this before Playful Parenting.

I like this book for several reasons - first it explains some possible reasons _behind_ a child's difficult behavior (I've got the "overly sensitive" type), how it might feel to be that child, parenting styles that help and don't help _and_ it has a concrete 4-5 step plan about _connecting_ with your difficult child. For example, the defiant child is often overwhelmed by the world, and tries to limit sensory input and frustration to control the world.

When things that work for "typical" kids don't seem to be working for a child, IMO, it's often time to look for special needs/circumstances and possibly call in outside help. So, I would look at:
-Food intolerances (not just allergies, but foods that might set her off - dairy and wheat are common places to start, but it might be more complex and I might try something like the Feingold diet)
-Sensory issues - children with sensory issues can be very intense and often have a great deal of difficulty with self regulation (http://www.spdfoundation.net/)
-Temperament/Personality clash -- she may need different handling than you're used to.
-Postpartum Depression - as someone else mentioned, you've got some of the symptoms, you've had 4 kids in 6+ years. The #1 predictor of PPD = stress. 4 kids in 6 years, 4+ pregnancies, and one very difficult child = lots of stress.
-Other causes -- mental illness, regulatory disorders (e.g., ADHD), or who knows what else.

The real question is whether you're able to do the detective work on your own to figure out what's making her tick (and tick and tick and tick until it drives you mad!).

The final question I'll leave you with:
When do you get time/space to rejuvenate yourself? I have 2 kids and I'm a lousy parent when I don't get a bit of time to myself. I'm an introvert with a strong need to connect socially - so once I've connected socially, I recover by being alone. And it's an odd combination that's taken me years to figure out.

But I've found that paying attention to my needs makes it easier for me to pay attention to my kids' needs.

What do you need to help you be a better mom? Time with your friends? One-on-one time with each of your kids? Time alone to read a worthless novel? A quick walk in the morning all by yourself or with a neighbor?


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

I'm going to throw out one of the issues we have with my DS2, who sounds somewhat similar: in Isaac's case, the root of his problems appear to be low self-esteem and self-confidence. He comes across as arrogant and aggressive and leaves me feeling as if he's the boss of the household, but that isn't his reality- and it took a teacher to put her finger on this. In the short-term, we saw results from very strict discipline and it helps him cope with his dad and stepmum, but in the long run it's made things worse.
I think you should sit down and make a list of everything that you don't like about her- then all the things you do.


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

I'm so sorry mama, that sounds very very hard.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

On school: My child is an extrovert and thrives around other kids. It doesn't mean he doesn't pick up unwanted behaviours (or develop his own). But he does get his need for interaction met and it makes a big difference in our days. I don't see the harm in trying it, both for the break (that is a valid need) and to see about the effect on your daughter.

On the general case: my nephew was very like this and one big factor was that he had a vision problem and couldn't see out of one eye.

I mention this because for a couple of years his behaviour was perceived as whiny and self-centered, when a lot of it was confusion. I think if you can (and it is one of those things that is so easy to say, so hard to do) refrain from passing judgment on the behaviour, it may help a little bit.

So like, it's really not okay that she is disrupting your day all the time. BUT when you say she thinks she is the queen of the house, you are assuming a thought pattern that may not exist. The mind of a 6 year old is a wonderous place.

For the whining and so on I guess I'd like to toss my recommendation in the ring for your reading list: How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk.


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## LauraLoo (Oct 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessedwinter* 
Brandi, I know I sounded frustrated in my post because I AM. I'm at the end of myself and that's why I'm writing. I AM frustrated with my child. I'm sure she does sense that at times, but I honestly try to be as loving, calm and gentle as I possibly can in every interaction even though sometimes I want to scream "LEAVE ME ALONE."

Other people cannot stand very long around her, because of her intensity, even her doting grandmothers. I was told when she was 2 (by a mother of 5) that she has the strongest will of any child this other mom had seen. I know that can be a good thing as she gets older, it's just figuring out how to live with it in a house where 5+ other people also need their needs met. It can't all be about her all the time.

When I said "submit" I meant to other people, in general. To their wishes and needs, not only her own.

Another book you might want to look into is "The Highly Sensitive Child" by Elaine Aron.

From her website:

_A highly sensitive child is one of the fifteen to twenty percent of children born with a nervous system that is highly aware and quick to react to everything. This makes them quick to grasp subtle changes, prefer to reflect deeply before acting, and generally behave conscientiously. They are also easily overwhelmed by high levels of stimulation, sudden changes, and the emotional distress of others. Because children are a blend of a number of temperament traits, some HSCs are fairly difficult--active, emotionally intense, demanding, and persistent--while others are calm, turned inward, and almost too easy to raise except when they are expected to join a group of children they do not know. But outspoken and fussy or reserved and obedient, all HSCs are sensitive to their emotional and physical environment._

http://www.hsperson.com/pages/child.htm


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchymomofmany* 
I, too, would be very tempted to send my child to school - I have a very challenging set of boys and occasionally think that I might just need to send them to school to get them out of my hair. But then I remember what happened when I did. Believe it or not - they actually became worse. School tends to encourage these behaviors in children and while she might be "out of your hair" for the day...you might find that you continue to "lose" her more. Indeed, her sense of superiority might increase because she doesn't see how she's creating chaos.

I don't see how you can know how THIS child (the OP's) will respond to school. I think homeschooling is a great option for many families, but there are also many children who thrive in school. There are so many different schooling options--public, private, religious, Montessori, charter, etc.--that I don't see how the blanket statement "school tends to encourage these behaviors" can apply. I had nothing but wonderful experiences with school growing up (I'm finishing up a PhD now, so clearly I love it!), and I know that I, personally, would have been miserable had I been homeschooled--and, honestly, I might have expressed my frustration by acting out in a way that I never did when I was getting my social and intellectual needs met.

OP, I would have a conversation with your daughter about what she wants and needs--and really listen to her. I wouldn't assume that school will bring out the worst in her, particularly if you haven't tried it; if you do try school, I would, however, do a lot of research and try to find a place that's a good fit for her.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FancyD* 
School is *not* the end of the world.







If it's what she needs, then help her meet that need (see my sig).

Here's a thread you might like...
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=952995

ETA Had to add 'not' to the above sentence...

Before we started hsing, 3 of my childrenhad attended school, and they enjoyed it very much. Some kids do. One of mine, who is a happy hser, adored school. She was up by 6, dressed and ready to rock. (She loves hsing, too, fwiw). We hs'd because we were sick of the tution payments....







And wanted more freedom...well, I wanted freedom from school schedules.









But my point is, some schools can work for some kids, and some kids really do like that level of activity. One of my hsers went back to school after a couple of years at home because "I prefer the pacing of a school day". That, and he was/is people magnet, and we hsers were not keeping up with that need, as much as we tried.

I am not saying give up the drema of hsing, just agreeing with FAncyD that school isn't always the wrong option for some kids. I don't know what your school choices are, but maybe a visit and a chat with a principla or head of school in your area might help?

Good luck.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 









Your daughter sounds like an intense, challenging child, the kind of child who would be challenging for a parent of 1 or 2, and you have 4 (one newborn!).

First, I would _highly_ recommend the book: The Challenging Child: Understanding, Raising and Enjoying the Five "Difficult" Types of Children by Stanley Greenspan.
You can read excerpts from Google Books - I would scroll to page 124+ to read about "The Defiant Child", which may or may not describe your daughter. I would read this before Playful Parenting.

I like this book for several reasons - first it explains some possible reasons _behind_ a child's difficult behavior (I've got the "overly sensitive" type), how it might feel to be that child, parenting styles that help and don't help _and_ it has a concrete 4-5 step plan about _connecting_ with your difficult child. For example, the defiant child is often overwhelmed by the world, and tries to limit sensory input and frustration to control the world.

When things that work for "typical" kids don't seem to be working for a child, IMO, it's often time to look for special needs/circumstances and possibly call in outside help. So, I would look at:
-Food intolerances (not just allergies, but foods that might set her off - dairy and wheat are common places to start, but it might be more complex and I might try something like the Feingold diet)
-Sensory issues - children with sensory issues can be very intense and often have a great deal of difficulty with self regulation (http://www.spdfoundation.net/)
-Temperament/Personality clash -- she may need different handling than you're used to.
-Postpartum Depression - as someone else mentioned, you've got some of the symptoms, you've had 4 kids in 6+ years. The #1 predictor of PPD = stress. 4 kids in 6 years, 4+ pregnancies, and one very difficult child = lots of stress.
-Other causes -- mental illness, regulatory disorders (e.g., ADHD), or who knows what else.

The real question is whether you're able to do the detective work on your own to figure out what's making her tick (and tick and tick and tick until it drives you mad!).

The final question I'll leave you with:
When do you get time/space to rejuvenate yourself? I have 2 kids and I'm a lousy parent when I don't get a bit of time to myself. I'm an introvert with a strong need to connect socially - so once I've connected socially, I recover by being alone. And it's an odd combination that's taken me years to figure out.

But I've found that paying attention to my needs makes it easier for me to pay attention to my kids' needs.

What do you need to help you be a better mom? Time with your friends? One-on-one time with each of your kids? Time alone to read a worthless novel? A quick walk in the morning all by yourself or with a neighbor?









:

And a big







.

Two major things help us here. One is that she's in school. She does well at school, she loves it, and we have some space from each other. School isn't a magic bullet that makes her home behavior better. But school is a place where she can feel good (it's a break from tension at home, it gives her the solid routine/structure and challenge she needs which I have trouble giving her at home on a daily basis, and she sees her friends daily), and _it gives me a break so that I can be a better mom (instead of a burned-out, tense, resentful mom)_. I suggest that regardless of what decision you make about school, you get some time to yourself to recharge.

The other thing that helps, which is covered in the _Challenging Child_ book, is positive one-on-one time with dd. It helps both of us when I make time to interact positively with her, to see the positive in her, to enjoy her. It helps for her to have this time, as many days as possible, where she makes the choices about what to do and how to do it (so long as it's realistic) and I follow her lead--no power struggles, no negotiating. I'm talking 20 minutes a day, as many days a week as is realistic.

Also, it may be that if you're feeling resentful and frustrated with her daily, seeking out a family therapist could help. We worked with a therapist, and it helped a lot.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LauraLoo* 
Another book you might want to look into is "The Highly Sensitive Child" by Elaine Aron.

From her website:

_A highly sensitive child is one of the fifteen to twenty percent of children born with a nervous system that is highly aware and quick to react to everything. This makes them quick to grasp subtle changes, prefer to reflect deeply before acting, and generally behave conscientiously. They are also easily overwhelmed by high levels of stimulation, sudden changes, and the emotional distress of others. Because children are a blend of a number of temperament traits, some HSCs are fairly difficult--active, emotionally intense, demanding, and persistent--while others are calm, turned inward, and almost too easy to raise except when they are expected to join a group of children they do not know. But outspoken and fussy or reserved and obedient, all HSCs are sensitive to their emotional and physical environment._

http://www.hsperson.com/pages/child.htm


Yes! This book saved my life with my HSC. (who, incidentally, is the child who 'prefers the pacing of a school day'). You just never know. There are so many variables, so many ways of meeting needs...it's challenging... to say the least.


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## momtoS (Apr 12, 2006)

I really need to read this thread.....

Oh no...someone is freaking and screaming

gotta
go


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I love hsing so I'm not one to recommend school....my dd1 is very extroverted and has planned activities or playtimes scheduled nearly everyday. It's what she needs.

I'm going to recommend another book: Sleepless in America....I think it might really turn things around for you.

The focus on using your influence to lower the overall tension in the household really helped me.


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## MommaFox (Jul 21, 2008)

You poor dear. I couldn't read this and not say something. I tried homeschooling, but ds and I are just too much alike. We'd wind up glareing at one another over a math or spelling sheet with me saying "You can do it, show me how." and him saying "YOU know how." So, he's in public school now and loving it. The worst that happened was when he was in kindergaten the first time thru he pulled down his underwear b/c a child named Connor told him to. Mass outrage at his being so easily lead aside, it hasn't been a bad experience at all. We even talk now about how some kids make bad choices and that he needs to learn not to follow them. He did learn the nyah nyah thing, and forgot for a while about please and thank-you but it's getting better now.
To selfless, tho angry people: I do NOT think the OP is after time just to herself to swill gin and shlorp bon-bons (tho I think she completely deserves it for goodness' sake) but time to actually be there for her other kids without a screeching, demanding distraction.


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## 2cutiekitties (Dec 3, 2006)

she sounds like she would thrive in school! Keep us posted!


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## cmtc (Jan 4, 2004)

my oldest dd is a similar child. I thought I would homeschool but realized that her needs would not be met and we would drive each other crazy. She LOVES school and is also perfectly behaved, respectful and cooperative when there!

I have another book recommendation: Natural Learning Rhythms by Josette and Sambhava Luvmour. They talk about different stages in a child's life, and the fact that during the transition from one stage to another, a child may be somewhat overwhelmed, cranky, and regress in behavior to an earlier stage. BTW, this is how dd reacts to transitions in general! The first transition is around age 6!

We have been having a really rough patch with her lately, and this book has made a lot of sense for us. I also have talked about it with her and she seems to like to be able to identify (or blame) her difficulties with the transition. SOmething that has come out of it (and may apply in your case also) is jealousy of the baby (another transition). DD is crazy about our little one but she says she doesn't get any attention anymore.

Good luck! I second the idea of looking at older pictures you love, and do it with your daughter! mine loves hearing stories about when she was a baby.


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## OHmidwife (Feb 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessedwinter* 
Thank you all for the help and support.
I DO think she is sleep deprived, since she forces herself to stay awake for so long, and wakes so early in the morning. She's also an incredibly light sleeper (like me, ugh).

I highly recommend this book:
*Sleepless in America*: Is Your Child Misbehaving or Missing Sleep? By Mary Sheedy Kurcinka
http://www.amazon.com/Sleepless-Amer.../dp/0060736011
Read an excerpt here:
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Books/story?id=1838410&page=1

It may not solve all your problems, but it could really help!


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## blessedwinter (Jun 21, 2008)

Thank you all again for the suggestions. I will look into all the books mentioned.

Some of the things brought up really resonate with me, others don't. She is rarely miserable, unless she's not getting what she wants. She's actually a very happy, bouncy child. I don't think the disabilities or mood disorders are in issue, thank God, I think she's just a very intense person. My dad is a lot like this.

The hardest thing to deal with for me is that she is intensely, INTENSELY controlling and aggressive. Not in a miserable way, just in an...intense way. If that makes sense. But everything is intense with her, and thankfully she's not a naturally miserable child. Her "default" is happy, which helps. She was giving me directions in the car at age 2, telling me which way to turn (because she always thought she knew where we were going). Everything is intense with her, I'm sure part of that is normal in a girl.

The thing that really throws me off is the intensity (there's that word again) in her controlling and selfish behavior. I'm not sure how to deal with that. I remember having really strong emotions as a child, but I also remember being very aware of others and how I was affecting them- always. To a fault, I still am like that. So when she has very little regard for anyone but herself, I just don't understand that. It's very, very difficult to live with.

I try really hard to be positive and "lovey" with her, but sometimes I just get burned out and have to hide away in the bedroom while dh deals with it. That seems to be happening more lately. Is that awful? lol I remember my mom "hiding" from me a lot, and that always hurt my feelings, but like I said, I was very aware of other people's emotions. I would cry a lot, she rarely cries unless it's out of ANGER. In some ways she and I are alike, in others we're very different. I will continue to try to focus on the positives, and look into school, lol.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

I "third" the Sleepless in America recco.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessedwinter* 
Thank you all again for the suggestions. I will look into all the books mentioned.

Some of the things brought up really resonate with me, others don't. She is rarely miserable, unless she's not getting what she wants. She's actually a very happy, bouncy child. I don't think the disabilities or mood disorders are in issue, thank God, I think she's just a very intense person. My dad is a lot like this.

The hardest thing to deal with for me is that she is *intensely, INTENSELY controlling and aggressive.* Not in a miserable way, just in an...intense way. If that makes sense. But everything is intense with her, and thankfully she's not a naturally miserable child. Her "default" is happy, which helps. *She was giving me directions in the car at age 2, telling me which way to turn (because she always thought she knew where we were going).* Everything is intense with her, I'm sure part of that is normal in a girl.

The thing that really throws me off is the intensity (there's that word again) in *her controlling and selfish behavior*. I'm not sure how to deal with that. I remember having really strong emotions as a child, but I also remember being very aware of others and how I was affecting them- always. To a fault, I still am like that. *So when she has very little regard for anyone but herself, I just don't understand that. It's very, very difficult to live with.*

I've highlighted a few phrases here -- and am going to pose a question:

Why does she need to be so controlling? (note I said "need" not "want"). What about her life is scary/overwhelming (to her) that she reacts by needing to control her environment?

I come from a long line of highly controlling people (ever try to light the candles on a birthday cake with 7 people telling you what to do? My sister, when she was in high school, used to answer the phone "World Control"), sometimes we can appear quite self-focused. None of this behavior made sense until I learned about "Highly Sensitive" people. My whole family is highly sensitive. I married a guy who is highly sensitive. And guess what, we need to control our environment. Much more than other people. And so do our kids.

Wait, you say, how can someone who is highly sensitive be so self-focused? It's because the sensations they are experiencing are so overwhelming to them that they use all of their energy to regulate their sensitivities that there's nothing left over for paying attention to the other person. The intensity is part of this -- if she's feeling everything really intensely (emotions, sensations, thoughts, feelings) that takes a lot of self-regulation. So much that there's probably not a lot of energy left over to think about other people. Add to that the fact that she's SIX, and you've got a recipe for a child who doesn't visibly demonstrate a lot of empathy. It doesn't mean she's not capable of it, but it does mean it's going to be harder work than for a lot of other kids.

This line of thinking is one of the reasons I suggested "The Challenging Child" -- precisely because it helps you make sense out of the causes behind the behavior. AND it gives you concrete ideas of things to do. And because it focuses on the connection between you and your spouse and the child.

Our son, who is highly sensitive, is also self-focused. His first reaction is to protect himself because he's so used to being overwhelmed. He was on the extreme end of the scale and we did get him occupational therapy to deal with his sensory issues (because they were causing problems in other areas of his life too). Most of the rest of my family is on the "typical" side of highly sensitive - meaning they didn't need occupational therapy (though dh would have really benefited from it).

Your dd might very well thrive in school because of the predictability and routine. Or she might be so overwhelmed she acts out more. Our son _loves_ the predictability and routine of the school day. He loves knowing what's happening, and when. (He also loves bus routes and schedules again because of the predictability).

The good news it that many of her qualities will be a great asset in adulthood. Persistence, intensity and desire to take charge are great qualities in a leader!

Your need to retreat is also another reason I suggested that you need to _plan_ time to rejuvenate. My suspicion is that you're highly sensitive too. There's a big difference between "I can't take this anymore" and "I need a break, and so I'm going to take a walk for the next 30 minutes and Daddy's in charge." The former makes it seem to the child like it's their fault (as you've experienced), and the latter can be a normal part of daily life. My parents took a walk every night after dinner and left us home to do the dishes. I understand now that this was my parents' time to reconnect and my mom's time to rejuvenate after being home with 5 kids all day.

When I suggested calling in outside help, it's not so much because your post resonated "mood disorder", but it does suggest (vaguely) regulatory issues - she can't regulate her intensity or her need to control. Why?


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## blessedwinter (Jun 21, 2008)

Lynn, I actually read the excerpts from the book you recommended. I think in many ways she's similiar to the defiant child he was describing....but not as angry-defiant. More of a *need* to control defiant. Does that mean she has sensory issues? Maybe.

Our life is not overwhelming. That's the weird thing. We are home much of the time, enjoying eachother (as much as possible) and just hanging out together. There's rarely yelling, or intense activity. We rarely rush around anywhere. I do notice that when we spend more time around other kids she gets more out of control, which is what makes me think school would intensify the problems. When I put her in preschool for 2 months when she was almost 4, she started regressing to the point she was pooping in her pants again. She had never done that since potty training, and she hasn't done it since. I'm not counting out school, but I'm doubtful it will help any as far as her behavior.

The more I think about it, the more I think she really does have a sleep problem. If anything, I need to require she rests more, and not get us involved in more activities, like I was thinking. She cannot calm down or rest on her own- ever. I'll definitely check out the sleep book.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessedwinter* 
Our life is not overwhelming. That's the weird thing. We are home much of the time, enjoying eachother (as much as possible) and just hanging out together.

Are you by any chance an introvert? My dd1 (who does have sensory issues...not all sensory issues are avoidance issues) is an extrovert who would be stark raving mad if her life looked like this. Can you up her outside activity involvement?

Both dp and I are introverts, so it requires some extra effort from us....but definitely an easier life for us all.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessedwinter* 
Our life is not overwhelming. That's the weird thing. We are home much of the time, enjoying eachother (as much as possible) and just hanging out together. There's rarely yelling, or intense activity. We rarely rush around anywhere. I do notice that when we spend more time around other kids she gets more out of control, which is what makes me think school would intensify the problems. .

That this is not overwhelming for YOU doesn't mean it's not overwhelming for HER. There are people who need lots of stimulation, movement, intense activity, changes of scenery, etc. in order to be comfortable. My mom is one of those people--"hanging out" makes her cranky and frustrated, and makes her feel like she wants to crawl out of her skin. She likes to be going-going-going all the time. I, on the other hand, am content to sit quietly with a book for 4 or 5 hours on end. She can't do that. If we're sitting in a room reading together, she can't go 10 minutes without starting a conversation. She just craves social interaction and activity.

I wonder if your dd gets out of control around other kids because it's a kind of release for her, of all kinds of pent up energy and emotion. Maybe if it were a regular part of her day, it would actually help the problem (I don't think 2 months in daycare, 2 years ago, is an adequate diagnostic of what she would do now). But, again, she's 6. I think she's old enough that you could simply ASK her if she thought she would be happier going to school, or getting involved in more regular activities, or things like that.


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## blessedwinter (Jun 21, 2008)

Ummm....I don't think I'm an introvert. If I am, it's an introvert who loves being around other people like Lynn said, but also needs quiet time alone.

How can I deal with the issue of her being extroverted and wanting to be around as many people as possible, with the consequence of her becoming overtired and even more difficult at home because of the activity when she's around other people?

I don't know how to meet everyone's needs, all the time.







I also have 3 precious other children to take care of, who I love with all of my heart and they don't get much of the attention she does, just because she demands it from me all the time. I think that's where part of my resentment is coming from. My 2nd child is an introvert who is happy to play quietly at home. My third child is more of an extrovert, but he just loves being at home, playing with me and his siblings. He's happy to do anything. My fourth is a newborn who needs lots of naps and quiet times. My daughter is really the only miserable one. I don't know how to take care of everybody's seperate needs, without somehow jilting the others.


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## munkeesmama (May 17, 2005)

I have a child much like you describe. Honestly, there were times where I would call anybody and everybody I knew to take him for a day or 2, heck, 3 weeks, even better. He was hard to manage, temper tantrums galore, manipulative, etc. He does have autism but is VERY high functioning. I went back and forth on whether to homeschool him or not. I didn't feel he'd do well in the school system, but wasn't sure if I could ive through homeschooling him. In the end, I made a selfish decision and decided to send him to school. With that said, it has made a WORLD of difference. Within a week his behavior changed, he was more calm at home, shared better with his sisters, more respectful and helpful around the house, and in general just a happier kid. We have ALL benefited from him being in school. His teacher said he is a happy, well adjusted, joy to have in the classroom. Homeschooling isn't for every kid. Obviously, what you're doing is NOT working, and it sounds like it may be time to try other methods. Hang in there Mama.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

blessed winter, it sounds very overwhelming the more I read. Hugs to you. Your love and care for all your kids comes through loud and clear.

Introversion and extroversion don't really have to do with whether you like other people or not.







They have to do with what gives you emotional/mental energy. Introverts refuel with time alone. Extroverts refuel with time with others.

Using myself as an example - I'm a mild extrovert - I don't have to be out with 20 people every day, but leave me on my own for two days and I get depressed. I'm also a restless sort myself. I do hate just hanging out. I need to get moving. I love to see new things and meet new people. Otherwise I get crabby and utterly hard to live with.

However I also need plenty of sleep to do it. I'm guessing that the combination of sleep + regular out times (so she can adjust to the routine there) might help. It might not. But it's something to try right?

I am curious what she thinks about things. What is it that she would like in her week that she isn't getting?

I wonder if some immediate tactics might change the dynamics a bit. For example, when she's asking for your attention, if you used a timer to give her your attention for ten minutes, and then asked her to spend ten minutes amusing herself. I also wonder if she could come up with a "boredom board" where she could list activities she can do on her own.

Also, how's the physical activity level at your house? Some kids NEED outdoor activity in the morning (later in the day it disrupts their sleep). Does she get outside to run around in the morning? Does she have a chance to explore areas around your property or neighbourhood?

Just tossing out ideas.


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## bobandjess99 (Aug 1, 2005)

wow..so much good info here......I think dd is all of the above, LOL, a highly sensitive, diffcult, defiant, sleepless child.

I've gotten so much good info here. now i need to find these books.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

What kinds of homeschool programs are you involved in? How about park days? Lots of ways to get out of the house that wouldn't screw everyone else up....

She's old enough for Daisies or Brownie scouts. How about something like that?

Or a gymnastics class? Or a sports team? Or coop classes?

It really sounds to me like she's just begging for more interaction outside the house.


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## blessedwinter (Jun 21, 2008)

She's stopped taking naps, but I had her lie down today because she's absolutely exhausted. Of course she isn't going to sleep.









Anyway. I'm going to talk with her in a minute and ask her what kinds of things she'd like to do. I called the school district my sister lives in and has her kids in, and they're not accepting anymore out of district applications for this year. That's really the only public school I'd want her in. Oh well, it's my fault I didn't call sooner.

I'll talk with her about it when I get her up, and see if we can't work something out that will work for everyone.

As far as what we do, we go to the park several times a week, she plays with her friends outside everyday, we visit my sister and her kids weekly, we were going to church weekly but stopped when I was put on bedrest during my pregnancy and haven't gone back since. Ummm....we just moved back here 4 months ago, so other than that I haven't gotten them involved in any other planned activities.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

It really sounds like you've all been through a lot. Hoping things ease for all of you soon.

If you come on over to the Learning at Home and Beyond area, you might be able to hook up with other like minded hs'ers in your area!


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## Lunnonhaus (Jan 17, 2007)

As a mother you have to do what is best for your family. I would definitely consider schooling outside of the home even if it is only for a short while. This may give you an opportunity to regroup and refresh yourself. I send my son to preschool twice a week and felt very guilty for a long time because none of my friends did and I would tell myself, "how can I not handle my own son," but the truth of the matter is that it makes me a better mom and he loves the outside interaction. I wish I could give you a hug and I wish there was an easy answer.


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## Mama Poot (Jun 12, 2006)

We are sending our 3yo to preschool five days a week for many of the things you mentioned with your child. I thought, and still do think, that homeschooling is ideal, but when being with my child 24/7 is doing irreparable damage to my relationship with him and everyone else in my household, its time to let go of "ideal". I hear you about the bugging and bugging. I've got a 2yo and a 2.5 month old baby to look after. Paddy cannot be #1 around here all the time. So I send him to school, a place where I know he gets the attention he craves and needs.

Do what you need to, and don't let others' judgment color your decision.


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## avivaelona (Jun 24, 2005)

My son is this intense a child and one thing that has REALLY helped me is to realize that on days he was driving me nuts it was actually twice as hard on him, whether he seemed to show it or not. She doesn't want to be the "difficult" kid no matter what it seems like. The days my son is the worst are the days he is most uncomfortable and unhappy himself. (and oh boy was today one of those days) Showing him firm limits but with sympathy for his struggle has really helped.

Also, I know you are frustrated, and having a child like this, I totally get why, if nothing else its exhausting. But when you look at video of a 7 month old and think she's looking at you with disgust I think there might also be something else going on here. No 7 month old is looking at anyone with disgust. You know that right? There may be something in her personality that reminds you of bad situations you've been in (your own childhood? relationships?) and you are reacting to some of that. I would consider it at least and see if you can change some of your feelings about what she does, because changing your feelings might help you react in ways that help change her behavior more.

I definitely ditto what a lot have said, a controlling child is that way because for whatever reason, they feel out of control or they feel like the situation is out of control and no one else is trying to control it. I don't think its always easy to tell why that is for any individual child but trying to give them places where they do have control helps and setting firm limits about where they do NOT have control really helps.

Oh and my son doesn't sleep either. Working out ways of getting him enough sleep consistantly has been the hardest parenting challenge, especially since at this age, if he doesn't sleep enough we don't get enough either, which makes it much harder to tolerate the challenging behaviors. Even given all this, he is a delightful child most of the time, intense but we've found ways of managing it...that doesn't mean we don't have bad days. (like today, oy) but overall, the intensity doesn't overwhelm our relationship. It sounds like with your DD it really has.







wishing you a better relationship with her.


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## IfMamaAintHappy (Apr 15, 2002)

I have a child that sounds like yours. She happens to have sensory integration/sensory processing disorder, and happens to be a rigid thinker.. A great book to add to this list if she has meltdowns, is The Explosive Child. The Playful Parenting book, Spirited Child book, and the Becky Bailey book "easy To Love, Difficult To Discipline" have been great resources for me.

I dont know where a lot of my daughters anger and defiance comes from either. She is not controlling, but she happens to be very ungrateful and selfish, compared to my other children.

And unless you've had a child like this, it is BEYOND difficult to appreciate what we are saying. Having several other children and seeing what normal and neurotypical children are like, and having someone that just doesnt fit that description because of really high intensity, or meltodwns that nothing helps, etc is really overwhelming sometimes.

I would love to PM with you if you'd like.


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## wetcement101 (Dec 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Corrie6* 
I agree about school. I dreamed of homeschooling both of my kids too, but it never happened for various reasons. Now I realize that me and my 11 year old would kill each other anyways (you can read my thread about the grief he's causing my family!).

I know just how you feel, some parent/child combinations are just not that compatible, and it makes us feel terribly guilty, but the kid just drives us nuts! Of course that doesn't mean we don't love them bunches, but me and my 11 year old clash a lot.

Good luck!

I have a brother that was extremely difficult to get along with from day one. Now his is 50 and still an ass, IMO. I was seriously scared to have a biological child thinking she could take after him. My parents did their best to care for all 4 of us, but there is still a lot of resentment because they cowed to his personality. I'm writing this because I empathize with you, although I wouldn't presume to have a solution for your tough situation!


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## blessedwinter (Jun 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *avivaelona* 
But when you look at video of a 7 month old and think she's looking at you with disgust I think there might also be something else going on here.

No, she wasn't 7 months. She was around 2 years old when I saw that look so clearly on video. She looked at me like "you're a complete and total idiot."

Frelle, I would love for you to PM me. You're right, people just don't understand. I would think this was "normal" behavior if I didn't have 3 other children.

ETA: I've been getting a lot of suggestions about sensory processing disorder, so I'll definitely look more into that. She doesn't seem to have a problem with dealing with new situations though, which is what I think of when I think of SPD..? She's usually happy, just very controlling. She wants MORE of everything, more of life, more noise, more excitement, more everything. This sounds like it would be fun and lovely, unless you're the one who is supposed to provide all of that, all the time, kwim? lol.


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## ktmama (Jan 21, 2004)

_School tends to encourage these behaviors in children_

I couldn't disagree with this more. Moreover, there is a huge difference between playdates and school with trained, caring, adults supervising a stimulating, rhythmic day full of both concrete activities and free time play. I have a child like yours and school has been a life line for both of us. She loves it and gets attention from many, many adults all day long. Now that she's in middle school







: she has SEVEN different teachers and couldn't be happier!


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## LauraLoo (Oct 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessedwinter* 
Ummm....I don't think I'm an introvert. If I am, it's an introvert who loves being around other people like Lynn said, but also needs quiet time alone.

How can I deal with the issue of her being extroverted and wanting to be around as many people as possible, with the consequence of her becoming overtired and even more difficult at home because of the activity when she's around other people?
(

Here's a definition of introversion for you to check out. (BTW, I'm an introvert who loves people, but definititely needs time by myself. I have one extroverted and one introverted child. It makes for interesting days juggling everyone's needs, but once I understood where all of our needs were coming from it made it easier to do.)

http://www.theintrovertadvantage.com/being.html

And here's a checklist to consider Sensory Processing Disorder:

http://www.sensorysmarts.com/signs.html


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

I had a child like this and once they turned 17/18, their world didn't revolve around my attention anymore and he took all that energy out into the world. I could literally feel the huge shift and extra time and energy to devote to the other children. Prior to that, the one child took more attention from both parents than all of the other 4 combined. My child is gifted and spirited so it is natural for him to look down on the rest of the world as not as intelligent as he is. Maybe the look she gives you is the typical look of a gifted child who is frustrated with not being able to have a conversation "on their level", idk, it seemed to be a relief for my son to go to camp with other gifted children, if not just to have conversations with other smart kids that included logic, which I have been apparently told my my son, I lack.







If this is the case, regular school wouldn't "do it" for a child like that either. They would be bored out of their minds talking to public school children also.


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## mamamelia (Apr 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessedwinter* 
ETA: I've been getting a lot of suggestions about sensory processing disorder, so I'll definitely look more into that. She doesn't seem to have a problem with dealing with new situations though, which is what I think of when I think of SPD..? She's usually happy, just very controlling. She wants MORE of everything, more of life, more noise, more excitement, more everything. This sounds like it would be fun and lovely, unless you're the one who is supposed to provide all of that, all the time, kwim? lol.

please do look into it. my 4yo dd also has sensory integration disorder and boy can i resonate with what you've been saying about your daughter. today was a particularly hard day, i'm just up in arms trying to figure out why the hell she is soooo ungrateful and selfish with absolutely everything - nothing is EVER good enough - more, more, more, more, freaking more. i think i'm going crazy. oh boy she is screaming at the top of her lungs now asking the same question every 5 seconds (literally)! wants everything NOW! i get sooooooo angry when she screams at her baby sister for absolutely nothing. she is so mean to her sometimes and my other daughter doesn't deserve treatment like that.








:

should add that her 21mo baby sister has far more manners than she does (and they were raised the same way).. so i am a firm believer in her sensory issues being the cause of stuff like this, not the discipline methods. but still, it doesn't help to think of those things on days like this. you definitely have my sympathies mama.







and i too am guilty to say that when she is asleep and its just me, dh and her baby sister that are awake, i enjoy myself a lot more too. the atmosphere is soo calm and gentle/happy and not angry/intense/rushed and full of resent. i feel sad about that but its the truth.









ok gtg..


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## moodymaximus (Nov 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessedwinter* 
we just moved back here 4 months ago

my dd who is also 6 has the same tendencies as yours. we also just moved. we also have a newborn. i think moving and a new baby can be **major** stressors, more than we as adults can realise. i have to constantly remind myself that even though our changes are all good and positive, her life has been unsettled in major and unpredictable ways. this is HUGE for a 6 year old.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

[quote


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessedwinter* 
ETA: I've been getting a lot of suggestions about sensory processing disorder, so I'll definitely look more into that. She doesn't seem to have a problem with dealing with new situations though, which is what I think of when I think of SPD..? She's usually happy, just very controlling. She wants MORE of everything, more of life, more noise, more excitement, more everything. This sounds like it would be fun and lovely, unless you're the one who is supposed to provide all of that, all the time, kwim? lol.

SPD is actually difficulty in *regulating* sensory input. It can be either oversensitive or undersensitive, or a combination of both. From your description, it sounds like she might be somewhat of a sensory seeker, in other words _underresponsive_ to sensory stuff and so craving more, more, more input to make sense of things. By the way, my SPD kid doesn't have trouble with new places or transitions. He's always transitioned beautifully!

The real question is whether your on the "disorder" side of the spectrum or not. Everyone has sensitivities and over/underresponsiveness to some degree. I have one on either side of the "disorder" line. My SPD kid is hypersensitive to most things, but ironically undersensitive to pain! He needed OT to help him make sense of the world and be able to use his body. My 'typical' kid is a funny combination of undersensitive to some things (tactile stimuli - she craves touch, being naked, heavy movement like jumping), and oversensitive to other things (smell, sound are her two biggies). BUT the difference between the two is that my SPD kid couldn't self-regulate - once he got out of control, he was gone. He never got used to things - the first loud noise was as panicking as the 10th. Our daughter could, even though it took her some time. She gets used to things.

I obviously can't diagnose your daughter, but I just want you to think about the regulatory disorders (SPD, ADHD) because it sounds precisely like your daughter isn't regulating. Now, it could turn out that she's just an intense, stubborn, high needs kid, who is 6 and has 3 younger sibs.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessedwinter* 
You're right, people just don't understand. I would think this was "normal" behavior if I didn't have 3 other children.

This is precisely why I suggested looking at "disorders" or differences for your daughter. Something about how she interacts with the world and interacts with you is different.

The real question is what kind of environment does she need to thrive, and what kind of environment do _you_ need to thrive and be able to meet the needs of the rest of the family too? That's a tough one, and I haven't got any concrete ideas as to how to help.

To add to your "reading list" you might want to look at "Sensational Kids" - it's a great book and you don't have to read it cover to cover. You can start with the chapter on sensory seekers, and see if any of their suggestions on how to work with kids help your daughter.


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## Kim919 (Mar 27, 2008)

Put her in school for goodness sake! Then, put her in girl scouts and gymanstics and summer camp and every other activity you can possibly find/afford. Let somebody else get her tired out! Maybe she just needs that constant stimulation.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moodymaximus* 
my dd who is also 6 has the same tendencies as yours. we also just moved. we also have a newborn. i think moving and a new baby can be **major** stressors, more than we as adults can realise. i have to constantly remind myself that even though our changes are all good and positive, her life has been unsettled in major and unpredictable ways. this is HUGE for a 6 year old.










Yes, I wouldn't discount the stress of that as major contributors to a child's behavior.

I only have three, but I do have to make a very concerted effort not to push my oldest along faster than she's ready for. It's easy to expect more out of her and be resentful of her for taking time away from the baby, or more for me, the middle child. But that's not fair to her either.

And, one more vote for more sleep. My dd was up an hour later than normal last night and was a litte sh&t today, to be perfectly honest. She told me she was tired, but the difference in behavior never fails to astound me.


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## Corrie6 (Aug 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IfMamaAintHappy* 
I have a child that sounds like yours.
And unless you've had a child like this, it is BEYOND difficult to appreciate what we are saying. Having several other children and seeing what normal and neurotypical children are like, and having someone that just doesnt fit that description because of really high intensity, or meltodwns that nothing helps, etc is really overwhelming sometimes.


I totally relate to what it's like to have a child like this, as well as having other more "normal" children. It's really rough and exhausting. Actually, when I had my second son, I was in shock at how easy he was to care for and just to be around, after spending almost 5 years raising my first child as an only. And it also made me really sad, because only then did I realize how difficult my older guy was, and that his extreme intensity was not just the harder side of parenting in general, but an unusually difficult personality. Sorry to say, he hasn't changed much over 11 years; he is still very intense and capable of making us all very miserable at times.

On a positive note though, in a way he is happier the older he gets. As he ages and gains more self-respect, respect from others, freedom, and responsibilities, he is actually more comfortable with his life. It's almost like he was not suited for the dependent role of a child, and the increased power and independence of an older person feels better to him. Maybe your little one will be the same way!

I know its tough, but all we can do is to love them and try to help them, and at the end of the day we know that at least we did the best we could for them. Good luck!


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## Corrie6 (Aug 25, 2008)

Another thing I wanted to say too, is that intense physical activity really helps my son. He currently plays football, and works out hard for about 2 hours a day, almost every day of the week. We are talking about working out to the point that he is drenched in sweat. This really seems to help him in several ways. First, it has been shown that exercise helps depression, and improves mood. Second, he is so darn exhausted, that he is much easier to deal with. He can sit on the couch with his brother without bothering and attacking him, which is not the case when he's not getting a lot of exercise. And third, he sleeps really well at night, which makes a big difference for these kids.

Perhaps if you could get your little one really involved in a sport, that intensity would be channelled there. But I think the level of physical activity has to be pretty high to have this effect.

Good luck!


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## Lohagrace (Sep 21, 2006)

oops! i was trying to start a new thread and it got added on here.


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