# beyond attachment parenting



## sueami (Oct 11, 2002)

i've run into a few parents IRL who co sleep, extended breast feed and practice other forms of attachment parenting, but i have found almost no one who has researched or chosen to follow more than one or two parenting choices similar to the ones i have listed above for older children.
i'm surprised that these aren't more widely embraced because they arose for me as a natural extension of the attachment parenting that i found and decided to follow. and i'm wondering if they are practiced more widely here at MDC.
what other conscious parenting choices have you made?
if you haven't chosen any of these, why? have you considered and rejected them for particular reasons? just looking for inspiration and some insights...
susan

edited to add: after reading the poll over, i felt compelled to qualify that these are parenting *ideals* that i strive for. all too often i find that my conditioning rises up and takes over and i cringe at the conflict i've just created with my children! but i'm working hard to improve my ability to observe my anger/frustration/worry about what others may think and to not automatically act on it....


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I can't vote b/c my DD is still a baby (pretty much).

I'm also going to move this to the Gentle Discipline forum, b/c it seems to me that it basically covers discipline and relating to your child, which would be better suited to that forum (I also think you'll get alot of really thoughtful posts there!).


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## MamaSoleil (Apr 24, 2002)

Hey Susan, It's been a while!

I voted for most, again, being my ideal. I do not say no on principal ever, I think about it before I answer, and always tell her why I reached my decision...ie:Yes you can because...or I don't think it's such a good idea because...yadda yadda
THere are some choices I didn't vote for, because they've never been an issue. Soleil is always up for errands, and teeth brushing was just never a problem. So, i'm not sure about those ones.
Bedtime depends on her, but I do step in when I KNOW she's exausted, and fighting it...but I do it gently, we still co-sleep, though she's moving into her own room next week.
I am pg, and find that my patience I always had is pretty much gone. I'm really hoping that will change once the baby comes, but Soleil and I talk about it a lot, and though I do not put the blame on the baby per say, I let her know my tiredness is temporary.
The fact that she's been the only child for so long, helps, our bond is extreme, she's never had to fight for my attention, and has been wanting a sibling for a year, and is eager to have a sister or brother, she's willingly given up her spot in our bed, to accomodate the babe, though she's mentionned the babe may want to share her bed instead!








All in all, I do agree with your poll, I try to be mindful, and feel that the more freedom I give her to make her own choices, the better off she'll be as an adult..some say I'm too layed back, but, to each their own.

Peace,
Mamasoleil


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I couldn't really answer the poll, because a lot of what I believe was ind of what the poll was saying but also different. I don't punish. Discipline is a whole 'nother story - discipline is teaching. And I guess the impression I got from the poll was of someone who didnt ever really take a stand on issues, and I do take a stand. Bathing, for instance - I don't like stinkiness. If Rain choses to wear leather clogs without socks on hot days, then I protest loudly when she takes them off in the car because it really smells. I have the right to not be stuck in a stinky car. I don't interfere in things that don't affect me, but for things that do, I get an equal say...

Dar


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## untomySelf (Apr 13, 2003)

sueami

I have to agree with you. Im surprised too in my life, both here and on forums that the boxes i ticked (all of them), are not as common as maybe I thought.
To each there own, but if Im honest I wish it were different









Of course I have my bad days and this is fine. Biggest gift I figure is to be in all of my humaness in a conscious way and be able to own it, forgive it and relish in it!

I work at being clear on boundaries. I love that ds will clearly state when his are violated.

Kid takes ds's toy/shovel whatever, he says "I am NOT ok with that!"
(he also wallops em on his bad days














)


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## Mallory (Jan 2, 2002)

I think I agree with the sentiments behind most of these, but not the assumption that if I parent by finding out what makes my child also happy (no shampoo, pick thier own bedtime, ect.) That the only option is to hurt my self (want time to myself in the evening, cringe at thier apperance, ect.)

I do parent so that the first part of those statements is almost always met, but there are many ways I can also meet my own needs. Our boys pick thier own bed times, but if we want some couple time/alone time we can do that too (make out in the closet playing hide'n'go seek, go to bed in the dark and they will stay away until they are ready to sleep, one parent will take over and give the other a break, ect.)

Quote:

Bathing, for instance - I don't like stinkiness.
Yes, you can make your own descions about when you get in the tub, but I can decide not to repeatedly snuggle/nurse someone who is so stinky. So far we haven't really had any bathtime struggles, although they often don't shampoo for weeks.

So although I agree that everyone should be able to make their own decision about what they eat, when they sleep, when they wash, I don't think that anyone should repeatedly make sacrifices either. Your freedom ends where mine begins. And I don't think that letting them do what ever they want with no care to anyone else is really helping them in the long run.


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

I agree with Mallory.

I think that it is important for kids to realize that there are consequences for different behaviours. If my kids choose not to brush their teeth, for example, there would be no even SEMI-sweet treats in the house for a long time, you know? I have a responsibility as a parent to protect them from themselves, at times.







(while still allowing them freedom to make choices...I just think that when bad choices are made, it is good for kids to experience the negative consequences).

And sometimes the negative consequence is, as Mallory said, a mom who doesn't want to do certain things.

I want my kids to grow up making decisions that take the feelings/needs of other people into account. It seems to me that the above list makes clear that the parent is taking the child's needs/feelings into account, which I think is great. But I feel that that needs to go both ways (i.e., the child also needs to be helped to consider other people and their feelings...as well as potential problems the child will cause him/herself with some of these choices)

Not sure why I didn't just stop with 'I agree with Mallory'!


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## alexa07 (Mar 27, 2003)

Wow, I could not vote for a single one of these without qualification. I never make my kids eat anything they don't want, but meal times and snack times are met.

I GD but don't punish. I think that it is important to do certain things because of others. You HAVE to visit grandma, even if you don't want to.

I do believe that for society to function as a whole we must do things we do not want to do.

I think that is sometimes important to say you are sorry, even if you don't feel it. If you can't do this, there are many jobs you better not even consider.

Of course a few people can get along without this. But if everybody did, our society would be even worse.


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:

which of these parenting practices do you follow?
my children eat what they want, when they want. i encourage healthy choices but let them have the final say
This is extremely important to me. I watch other parents threaten and coerce their children to eat and it saddens me. Even as infants I left it up to them when they wanted to drink/eat etc.
I find I am VERY alone on this one. I try to have mostly healthy choices for them with special occasions where there are junk food treats.

Quote:

my children go to bed when they are tired. i do not set a bedtime, even tho i want conscious time to myself at night
I am parenting alone most bedtimes so I cut myself some slack. I usually parent them to sleep even though they are school age. Once in a while if I resent it I ask them to fall asleep alone but check on them frequently. Most nights I want to sleep when they do but sometimes I feel the need to stay up later and I do.

One of my children must go to bed earlier than she likes or she will be cranky the next day because of school time. When they were not in school yet I was extremely flexible about when and where they slept.

Quote:

i don't punish/gently discipline my child. i view anti-social behavior as a symptom of an unmet need/frustration and attempt to meet the need and brainstorm w/my child other ways of getting her need met in the future
Yes, yes, a thousand times yes! Again something I feel isolated about sometimes even in LLL circles.

Quote:

i don't make my child say please, thank you or i'm sorry, but i talk alot about how helpful these words are in our social intercourse
Ooh you have given me an a ha moment!







I never do it with please and thank you but I DOOOO ask them gently to say sorry sometimes! I find that if *I* say these words to *them* in every day life then they will say it to others. Modeling.

Quote:

if I cannot convince my children to brush their teeth through playful means, i try again at night, the next morning. i never force it
I did have power struggles about this. I never pushed one child who hated it and then she ended up with cavities...more cavities than sibling who was happy to be brushed. Having fillings filled is much worse than brushing trauma-wise and it was a teachable moment......she didn't brush, it hurt more later. So yes, I am bossy about teeth now.

Quote:

i do not forcibly bathe my children, brush their hair or make them change their clothes, no matter how much i may cringe at their appearance.
I can't fully say yes to this, however I find I bathe my kids less than some moms and am more casual about appearance than some moms. I encourage a good splash in a mud puddle and some moms certainly do not.

Quote:

do not want to go to the park/disneyland/grandma's house, and i can't convince them it's in their best interest we do not go. i don't buy tix to such outings without getting their okay
They are usually eager to go on any outing. I certainly am aware of not overscheduling and overwhelming them.

Quote:

ditto for
running errands. i get a babysitter or dh to watch them if i don't think we can get through the errand without running into a conflict
Yes, often, but a frustrating lack of help can derail these intentions. If dh is at work and we MUST have toilet paper then we have sad kids in the car sometimes.







I try to keep my cool and say "I know you don't want to do this, but we are out of_________ " but am not perfect.

Quote:

child wants a treat on an outing/errand, i don't say no "on principle". I may negotiate a less expensive treat if necessary
Yes.
I don't say yes or no on principle, but due to the bank balance or lack thereof....and I say yes often at yard sales...cheap and fun!
Actually I often say no simply because relatives have given them SOOOOOOOOOOOOO many toys but they are thrilled by tiny items. And seasonally we go through and I ask the child to discard unwanted toys and clothes. I leave the decisions mostly but not 100% to them.

Quote:

I don't force my child to go to routine dr or dentist visits. if roleplaying doesn't alleviate fears, we put off the appt.
This I do not agree with.


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## sueami (Oct 11, 2002)

thank you to all who have replied so far. it's been very interesting and helpful to me on a couple of levels. of course, i feel heartened to know that i am not alone, for those of you who indicated you parent in similar ways. and for those who disagree with these approaches, it's very helpful to me to understand why they don't make sense to you. i find that in taking such a less-traveled parenting path, for my own peace of mind i need to learn to judge less and be more accepting of the many, many parents around me who are doing things differently.
warmly,
susan


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## Mallory (Jan 2, 2002)

Carolyn, I knew were were Alter Ego's







!


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## sparklemom (Dec 11, 2001)

What a wonderful poll. I have wondered about the popularity of these very "ideals" here as I too have been surprised at the seemingly overall rarity of them on mothering and anywhere else IRL for that matter.

I checked yes to each of the "ideals" without hesitation. It was as if I had written them. Like you said in the initial question, these ideals are for me a natural extention of attachment parenting.

I assume that my children, by their very nature, are inately social and considerate humans. I don't outright "teach" them things---they learn by example.

Of course we have our bad moments, but these are ideals...and ones that i feel passionately about and always strive for.

Interestingly some people criticize this type of parenting as "lazy" or "easy" which i find laughable! it reminds me of the parents who let their baby cry it out who accuse those of us who would never let our babies cry it out as doing the "easy" thing by tending to our child's needs. kwim?

sueami, you are not alone.







and thanks for this thread!


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

My child is too young for many of these to apply yet, but the few that I hesitated on were with a qualification.

Regarding eating, yes, ds eats what he wants when he wants. I don't force anything on him. Yet if you were to spy on me, it might seem as if I am cajoling him. What I have to do is keep asking him if wants a bite as he is playing. If he says no or ignores me, I let it go. But this particular little guy gets so wrapped up in what he's doing that he forgets all about eating, and then we get in the car and he's asking for food. At that point all I have are crackers or raisins or nuts. Which is fine, but then he fills up on that and doesn't eat anything else. I used to carry beans and cooked broccoli and such with me, but it ends up mushed all over him and carseat, and stinking up the car. So anyway, I guess what I'm saying is that I encourage him to eat, but I don't force it.

Regarding struggles about getting dressed - yes, there are times that I have had to fight him on this. But it's not usually because his clothes are dirty and I want him to look clean. I mean, I do, and if he lets me I will change dirty clothes, but sometimes he is naked or just wearing a shirt, and we need to go out, so he needs to get dressed, which he doesn't want to do. We have had some diaper changing struggles too, but I won't let him sit in a poopy diaper just because he doesn't want it changed. Sometimes I have to do what I know is best for him.

Which leads to me to my next thought, about not forcing them on outings. I am of two minds about this - I understand the point about not forcing them into situations that they don't want to be in, but then I'm not really a big fan of being held hostage in the house all day with a whiny, bored toddler. He may resist getting dressed and getting into the car, but he always enjoys being out once we get going.


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## alexa07 (Mar 27, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by oceanbaby_
*But this particular little guy gets so wrapped up in what he's doing that he forgets all about eating, and then we get in the car and he's asking for food. At that point all I have are crackers or raisins or nuts. Which is fine, but then he fills up on that and doesn't eat anything else. I used to carry beans and cooked broccoli and such with me, but it ends up mushed all over him and carseat, and stinking up the car.*

This used to happen to us until we just started saying that "meal time is over, we will have a snack later." When they realize they aren't going to be doled out food over the course of a day, they start paying alot more attention to mealtime and as a result eat MUCH healthier. I don't refuse food to be mean. But I have found regular meal time and regualar PLANNED snacks are much better.


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## Dodo (Apr 10, 2002)

Totally Off Topic, but:

Quote:

I don't refuse food to be mean. But I have found regular meal time and regualar PLANNED snacks are much better.
I disagree (not that I think you're being mean,







just that I think toddlers should eat when they are hungry, whether or not it is snack or mealtime.)


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## hydrangea (Jun 5, 2002)

I completely agree with the overall principle of what you are saying and I voted yes on most of these things. If you haven't been to the unschooling boards, definitely go, because pretty much everyone there agrees with these statements, and I have learned so much from them. In practice, I'd say our good days are like this, but we have a lot of bad days.

I have one thing that bothers me about this, and it is most evident in the question about bringing children to Disneyworld, the park, or grandma's house.

Disneyworld would be a trip for the children. If they don't want to go, of course I wouldn't go (I probably wouldn't go anyway, but that's another thread). The park is usually for the children, but sometimes _I_ really need a trip to the park. If I need that trip and they aren't excited about it, then we have to work it out. Sometimes I surrender to them, but sometimes they go along with me (and having more than one child makes that an even harder thing to compromise on). And trips to Grandma's are rarely about the children, usually more about the grandmothers and us, the parents. If my dh has agreed to visit his parents and the kids dont' want to (IRL they always do want to) I CANNOT keep them home. I HATE going to my in-law's parents, but it is one of those obligations I have to fulfill, and I couldn't keep my children out of that obligation either, unless there was any sort of physical or major emotional risk to them. Luckily they love going there.

Waiting for my husband to come home so I can go to the store is a MAJOR inconvenience to me and the family. When my children are going through stages where they truly hate it, then I make some concessions, but there are times they are just going to have to come.

Then there are times when what one child needs or wants is different from what the other child needs or wants. For example, my six-year-old is at a point where she really thrives on getting out and doing things with other children and is miserable staying at home all the time, but my 4-year-old is a serious homebody who hates playing with other children and hates watching her sister do so. Am I supposed to stay home all the time for my 4-year-old? I don't think so. I arrange things so that they both get their needs met and some of their wants met, but they have to compromise for each other, and for me. Right now our compromise is that when my 6-year-old has a class or a playdate, my 4-year-old goes to my mother's house, and she is happier there, but she would still rather be home.

I think these ideals are wonderful in general, but I don't believe life should be spent tiptoeing around one's children. I believe more in family-centeredness than child-centeredness, and there are times when what is best for the family as a whole is not what the child wants.


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## hydrangea (Jun 5, 2002)

I just wanted to add that these ideals do seem, to a certain extent, to be natural extensions of AP to me, and I am always surprised by how few AP parents go this way.

So many attachment parents are extremely anti-television, for example, and make huge efforts to keep their children from watching television, even once they are at a point where they feel different and uncomfortable because they are not familiar with some of the things their classmates are familiar with. It seems to me that denying their child television at that point is actually detachment parenting. It is denying the child's true feelings for the parent's own ideals.

This is one example, but it goes on and on. Food, chores, bedtime, school -- examples come up in all these areas and more.


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## oncewerewise (Feb 14, 2003)

Well, I would have to say none of the above. I feel that I am very in tune with the needs and moods of my children. I also *know* that I have way more information at my disposal than they do. I know they would stay up until 11 or 12 when they drop from pure exhaustion and be miserable and cranky for the next couple of days. So, I set their bedtime. It is not 8 o'clock SHARP by any stretch, but I know they need to be asleep around 9ish in order to be well-rested. This is not only a question of mood but also their health.

I feed them when they're hungry. I have set meal/snack times (breakfast, mid-morning snack, lunch, afternoon snack, dinner and bedtime snack). Yes, they occasionally have junk food. Even with that, I try to pick the better choice (organic, etc.). I love my children, I don't want them living off junk. (Not implying anyone else doesn't love their children.) And, I don't think they're informed enough to make the decision to choose carrots over chocolate. I also think that what they learn now will be habits that stay with them.

I do physical activity with them every day. This isn't optional (not really argued against) because this is something else that is good for their growing bodies and developing minds.

If we are going visiting, we go. If I make plans with someone, I consider it rude if they don't show because they just didn't feel like it when the time came. I think that we have obligations to people. It drives me crazy that BIL has no problem showing up for his bday dinner but rarely makes the effort for anyone else's. No one is an island.

I don't make my children apologize or say please and thank you, but I think they should and I encourage it and model it.

I believe cleanliness and hygiene are important for future health and I will not let them opt out of baths or shampoos or teethbrushing.

I make a point of making sure they don't get a treat on every outing. That's not real life. And, I think it sets up unrealistic expectations.

I am not criticizing anyone's parenting choices, but I will say that if someone's children took their liberties to the extremes of this poll, they could end up filthy and sick and appear to outsiders as victims of neglect. I don't doubt that it is hard to stick to. I imagine it takes a lot of effort. But, my question for you that do parent this way, is how do you think such parenting prepares your child for interacting as part of a community?

Peace.


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## Mallory (Jan 2, 2002)

Quote:

I am not criticizing anyone's parenting choices, but I will say that if someone's children took their liberties to the extremes of this poll, they could end up filthy and sick and appear to outsiders as victims of neglect. I don't doubt that it is hard to stick to. I imagine it takes a lot of effort. But, my question for you that do parent this way, is how do you think such parenting prepares your child for interacting as part of a community?
Well my children are young (2 and 3), so things like they can eat what ever they want is really limited to what is in our kitchen, and the rare times that we have anything sweet in there, if they choose to eat that, it is okay with me, I feel that by making those foods forbidden or treats that is worse then just considering them foods (of course if all you eat for dinner is cookies and at 7:30 you are an emotional mess, I will point out that bodies need better fuel to run thier best).

But I also believe that my children really will get all the sleep they need, and so far baths or bed time has not been a problem. (of course occasionally one will stay up pretty late, but I stay up late sometimes too). I do think the teethbrushing is a bit more important (as if you don't brush your teeth there really is a health threat, but we occasionally skip it, and most of the time we really have no problems. None of us are big on soap, and I don't feel like I am an unfunctioning member of society if I don't wash my hair all week.

For the most part I just go along making the descions, I pick whats for dinner, I get out the clothes, I get everyone ready for bed, I fill up the tub, and so on and so on. I don't think most of us are saying that we just wait for our children to ask to go to bed, brush thier teeth ect. I think we just go along doing our mommy stuff, but when there is a conflict, we really take the time to figure out what are children are saying or need before we continue with the shampoo, apple slices, trip to grandma's. Sometimes I think they have a valid point, sometimes they can see that I have a valid point and sometimes I say this has to be done anyway.

sueami (and others of you who agree with everything on the poll) do you know about TCS? It is not supposed to be discused here but I don't think I am out of line by pointing you in the direction of the archives (just do a search for TCS) if you are interested. (Moderator if this is not okay please feel free to erase this last paragraph.)


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## sparklemom (Dec 11, 2001)

(I checked them all) (re oncewerewise's question)

Bedtime, eating, drinking, brushing teeth, bath time, hair brushing,....turn into "issues" the second that they're made into issues. Since these things are not forced or turned into big issues in our home they're just not a big deal. It's just stuff we do (and are blessed to do so).

Sure, some nights are late...sometimes (like last night) we eat desert first...sometimes teeth go unbrushed...sometimes we don't get to run an errand...sometimes we rearrange our plans....but this is very rare, we roll with it and move on.

Parenting this way is not always convenient, but certainly worth it in the long run. Like Mallory wrote, I just go along with my "mommy" stuff and if something comes up then rather than push the issue I take the time to try and figure out what's really going on---the emotions behind the behavior.

My dds naturally enjoy and seek out healthy food over junk. They usually ask to go to bed at a decent hour each night. They use manners including apologizing even though I've never instructed them to do so. We're all very clean both in body and in our home. (I am only noting these things to say that you can very much parent this way without being a dirty and rude family as some might assume it would produce)

Again, I see children as being naturally social...they want to please...to fit in to their family/community. There is an underlying sense of peace and trust in our family which instills in them the values and emotional health that make them a wonderful asset to any community.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

I checked off about half of them. It was kinda hard to do, cause I don't actually *see* the items happening or not, it is just how our life goes. I don't conciensously do any of the things on the list or NOT do any of the things on the list. The food one, my kids need to at least try everything before they can have something else. I'm willing to give something else (usually just pb sandwhich, I'm NOT a short-order chef) but they at least need to try what is given to them. Many times after they try it, they end up just eating it.

I do make sure my dd's hair is combed, it has to be. She is almost 4 and has never had a haircut in her life. Her hair is down to her butt, and if I didn't comb it on a daily basis I would end up chopping it off. Sometimes she fights it sometimes not, the days she fights it I try to do it as quick as I can...it may not be perfect but just enough to keep it from getting snarled up.

The kids stay up until mom and dad go to bed. Sometimes they go to bed earlier, but that is usually when mom and dad are staying up late and they end up just falling asleep on the couch.

My kids love baths and to brush their teeth, so no big deal there. We sometimes skip a brushing, and we don't always wash hair.

I'm forgetting what some of the other points are, so I'll type more later.

(I'm wondering why we are not supposed to talk about TCS here?)


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## Mallory (Jan 2, 2002)

Quote:

(I'm wondering why we are not supposed to talk about TCS here?)
If you search for TCS here you can find out the whole saga, but basically it is because this a board about gentle *discipline* people come here to look for ways to get their children to do things in a respectful way and TCS advocates no discipline, never making a child do something against their will.
Mallory


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## Alexander (Nov 22, 2001)

Momtwice

Pretty much I could have written your post. However, Alexa is right in that qualifications are (sometimes) needed. The choice in each question often provides for 2 options, where a third might easily be available. Difficult.

Where I have not checked the boxes is where it involves health and safety. We might HAVE to visit the doctor. We have had the need a couple of times, but the kids are very keen to get there (our propaganda







) and we must brush teeth.

Resistance to this is met with the "let's brush teeth" techniques I've often described in the toddler threads.

To tell the truth, the kids bathe, they want to. We are so relaxed about everything else, or do something as a group in such a way that they want to take part very eagerly. Even going to bed early (9:30 pm) is done happily.

a


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## Alexander (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Mallory_
*but basically it is because this a board about gentle discipline*
Now now, no it isn't. There was not the manpower to mod.

Quote:

_Originally posted by Mallory_
*people come here to look for ways to get their children to do things in a respectful way and TCS advocates no discipline, never making a child do something against their will.
Mallory*
With the greatest respect, this could have two meanings. What you have just typed implies

1) that people looking to GD are for ways to get (force) their children to be more respectful

2) That people are looking to GD in order to learn how to be respectful of children.

If it the former, then I am deeply disappointed.

If it is the latter, then the implication is that TCS is not a subset of GD, and while I'm not an advocate of TCS, I would have to say that one of the most important principles (of TCS) advocated is that discipline comes fom within the child. Therefore, with the greatest of respect, I suggest that your statement is mis-leading.


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## I Believe in Fairies (Apr 17, 2002)

Well, I don't really fit on any of these because I think there are compromises. I do let my daughter eat what she wants and when she wants, to a point. Yes, Ice Cream for breakfast is okay but she can not have only ice cream all day and only eat ice cream.

We do practice GD in our family. Oddly enough my daughter asks for time outs. We never did them until she asked for them. Time Outs here are done by request and she can come out when she's ready. She seems to know that she's too emotional and needs to be alone to calm down. Now, I do this when I see I am being unreasonable with her, so maybe that's where she's learned it from. Yes, time outs are for parents too.

We are learning manners here. That is something my husband and I feel very strongly about. I see the loss of manners as a major problem in society today. While I was pregnant and riding public transit I was offered a seat twice. We don't yell at her or berate her is sfe doesn't remember, but we do point it out and such.

I only force bathing once a week, and hair every other week. The bathing she's okay with, the hair washing she's not. I don't really know what to do about the hair washing because I have tried everything and none of it has worked. It's only the rinsing part she hates, too.

Well, if it's something fun that Annabelle does not want to go to then we don't. She has no choice about errands, though. I can't drive yet so we have to go with my Mom and I am a somewhat single Mom. I don't have the money to hire a babysitter. We try asd keep errands to a minimum and throw in fun stuff in the errands.

Treats - well, it depends on a lot of things. If she wants a sweet she gets one a day. No chocolate after noon and no caffeine at all. If it's a thing it depends on the thing. If it's something I would normally let her have, and I have the money and it's not near a birthday or gift giving holiday then I might. It all really depends on the situation. I'm a sucker for books and Annabelle has not figured this out yet.

We haven't had a fear of doctors or dentists so far, so the last question is a non-issue. Annabelle is *very* healthy, so we haven't had to go in for her being sick.


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## sueami (Oct 11, 2002)

deleting many multiple posts!


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## sueami (Oct 11, 2002)

ditto


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## sueami (Oct 11, 2002)

sheesh. i guess this is one way to up one's post count...


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## sueami (Oct 11, 2002)

okay, why did i keep getting a website not responding page when it was in fact, posting my reply over and over and over!


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## sueami (Oct 11, 2002)

okay, almost done cleaning up my virtual explosion!


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## sueami (Oct 11, 2002)

hi all, just wanted to say that i continue to read all your responses with much interest. i wish i had time to resp. to each but the kids are clamoring for attn. so i'll have to make due with three broad responses
again, for those who have said this is how they try to parent, i do so appreciate knowing that i am not alone. even though i feel strongly that this is the right way for me to parent, it is wonderful to hear that i'm not alone. (and i will look for your posts when i'm needing advice and inspiration now that i know we are operating out of the same philosophy!)
for those who say they try this with qualifications (hi momtwice!) i do understand that life circumstances (including having two children with wills of their own) may make it overwhelming or impossible. i'm not sure how the emerging will of my second child will affect our parenting dynamic myself but i'm sure it will be a challenge!
for those of you who don't understand how this can work, i appreciate hearing why you think that. it helps give me a reality check and make sure that i'm not just parenting out of reaction to my own upbringing. i've carefully read your objections, looking for points that i cannot answer to my own satisfaction.
and lastly, and totally off-topic, i posted this poll in part as a little exercise in personal growth. i have been conditioned to be very conflict avoidant and i do not talk about my own opinions when i fear they will not be embraced. and i have lots of viewpoints that do not mirror those of the people around me, so i sometimes end up feeling either shut down or inauthentic. i realized that i wanted to explore speaking out, hopefully in a way that did not result in argument and clash of wills and a devaluing of others' opinions, so i decided to take a tiny step here at mdc. i'm embarassed to admit how nervous i was in posting this. (all the more reason for me to push my boundaries in this area, i know.) and i deeply appreciate how you have all responded, especially those who do not agree. it's been rather liberating to take this risk and have it well received! i'm heading over to activism now to get a real trial by fire! (just kidding on that one. i know when to take it slow :LOL)
warmly,
susan


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I didn't answer any of these. Things that relate to health are done even if by force. we havn't got money to waste running to the dentist because someone didn't want to brush thier teeth. Nor do I feel they can fully appreciate the consequenses of not brushing or washing or eating properly. That is whty the live with me insteadof out on thier own.

I have also learned the hard way that some children need a little more encouragement when it comes to going to bed. dd#2 would hardly sleep at all if left to her own devices.

I guess I o let my children wear mostly whatever they want unless it is an occaision that calls for dressing up.

I don't really see any of those things as a natural extension of AP though. I am firmly attatched to my children and in tune with thier needs. More so that I was when they were babies (I am a slow learner







) Knowing them and being in tune with them helps me guide them and discipline them gently in ways that are most effective for them.


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## Kylix (May 3, 2002)

I'm loving this thread. Alot of this makes sense to me. I do think children do fine picking out their own clothes and deciding what they want to eat (from an array of healthy foods in the kitchen) but a couple things do bother me. I don't think that one day of missing brushing your teeth does a whole lot of difference. I think that encouragement, modeling and education about healthy teeth habits go much further than coercion and guilt.

One example is the second part of the statement "I allow my children to stay up as late as they want even if I want my own time at night". I'm just wondering how healthy that is for both the parent and the child. I don't believe in CIO but I do think that parents need some down time. I think that if a child is allowed to infringe upon the rights of the other members of the family repeatedly, a disservice is being done not only to the other members of the family but to themselves.

I do believe that older children can set their own bedtimes over a length of time by gauging how tired they feel the next day but some younger children may have problems with understanding other people's boundaries.

How do you deal with that? If I am tired but my child is not and I need some time to just "be", something has to give. I would not feel comfortable leaving a younger child awake at night if I really need to sleep. Am I missing the point?

Kylix


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## sueami (Oct 11, 2002)

well, for me bedtimes can bring up conflict in two ways: when i want to be awake by myself or w/ dh, and when i'm really, really tired and want to sleep. with the former, i have come to the conclusion that my kids want and need my attention and interaction -- they are clearly alert and enjoying their late evening and will only melt down if i start trying to shut them down -- and i've decided to view it as part of their developmental push to absorb input and make neural connections and i'm not going to resist it. luckily dh agrees. we keep telling ourselves they'll only be this way for a few years then we can get our sexlife back (at least a little of it!) and in fact dd, at 4 asks to go to bed pretty early most nights, between 8:30 and 9:30. its the 18 mo old who stays up til 10:30 or 11 often. he naps during the day. she doesn't any more.
if i'm wiped and dh is too tired to stay up with ds also, i lay in the bed and he crawls on me and wanders in and out of the room, fussing at me to get up until he gets so frustrated and upset that he cries and nurses to sleep. i feel a little bad about this but i consider that to be my real wall that i've hit and i did the best i could that day to meet his need for stimulation. it just wasn't quite enough. it doesn't happen too often.
i'm a lot more confident on this whole sleeping point now b/c it's worked out so beautifuly with dd, who went from co sleeping and nitenursing until 2 and 4 mos to asking to sleep in her own bed at 3 to saying shes tired and its time for bed by the time she was 4.
thats how its gone with our family so far, fwiw.
warmly,
susan


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:

One example is the second part of the statement "I allow my children to stay up as late as they want even if I want my own time at night". I'm just wondering how healthy that is for both the parent and the child. I don't believe in CIO but I do think that parents need some down time. I think that if a child is allowed to infringe upon the rights of the other members of the family repeatedly, a disservice is being done not only to the other members of the family but to themselves.
For some reason I am totally disagreeing with this. My kids stay up as late as I do, unless they fall asleep on their own. If I wanted *me* time I probably should have not had children.







The way I see it, this time is JUST for my children. Soon enough they will not want nor need all this time, they will go out with friends, lock themselves in their room...whatever. These years are so short that I would feel like I was cheating myself and my family by not giving all that I could. I do get me time....whenever dh takes the kids or if a neighbor takes the kids for a couple hours. My sex life suffers, but that will work itself out, and if there is a real desire then nothing can stand in the way of it.

I don't see it as infringing on my rights, I see it as being a member of a family


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## sparklemom (Dec 11, 2001)

Well said, Wemoon! I fully agree and relate with your post.


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## sparklemom (Dec 11, 2001)

Also, it seems important to clarify that health/nutrition, politeness, cleanliness, and overall wellbeing are equally important to those of us who check all of the "ideals." We just use a different route/method/philosophy to achieve them than those of you who don't.

So I don't think that responding that you didn't check one/some/any of the ideals on account of the fact that health/money/appearances/sleep/... are important to you really applies because they're important to us too---we just use the ideals listed while reaching those goals.

I find the ideals listed fundamental in protecting the emotional core of my dds. And they do appeal to me on the same instinctive level that attachment parenting them as babies did. It can be very challenging at times to stick to the ideals listed, but it is always worth it.


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Sueami,

I have found your posts on other threads to be very thougthful and caring. I think you take this stuff seriously and care deeply about doing what is right for you and yours.

Several questions spring to mind.

(You may have answered them in your recent posts. A sick kid is sleeping on the couch nearby, so I have a minute to hop on here, I will read them later I hope.)

I wonder how old your child is.

I wonder if YOU wish YOU had been parented this way.

I wonder if you have read The Continuum Concept (liedloff?) because I think it would be right up your alley.

I feel different people..parents, children, have different personalities/temperaments.

I had a dd who needed this kind of parenting as a baby and toddler. Now that she is in school she needs more structure.
She ENJOYS more structure. It is amazing to me that she has CHANGED.
I find that a child or adult's needs can change through different phases of their lives.

I also hear in your posts that you deeply respect the integrity of your child, their dignity, their feelings. You do not want to parent by force. I think this is very valuable. I think however there are also times when more structure, more discipline is appropriate.It's a balancing act. Again, age and temperament are a part of this.

And sometimes a child will find it a tremendous relief that the parent is in charge. Some kids may find having all the decision making authority overwhelming and feel loved when someone else sets limits, with respect,with gentleness, while caring about the child's dignity. Such as no you cannot eat three boxes of cookies because I know you will have a stomach ache and be sad.I

I remember at age 14 all my friends were going to a scary violent movie. I jokingly asked my mom (who parented like you) to forbid me. She laughed and said ok, you can't go. I was SO RELIEVED. I felt SO GOOD. I was having trouble saying no myself! Even though I KNEW the movie would upset me. I was happy to be able to say to my friends, my mom won't let me go. I felt RIGHT. I felt good and protected and SAFE and LOVED because of the boundary.

I wish I could hop in a time machine and have this talk with you when your kid/s is/are 7,10, 15, etc.


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## sueami (Oct 11, 2002)

hi momtwice!









i'm happy to answer as many of those questions as i can before i get interrupted by the kids.
my kids are still quite young, 4 1/2 and 1 1/2. so yeah, the parenting challenges are going to change dramatically as they get older.
yes, i needed a much different style of parenting than i got as a child and i'm aware of the tendency we have as parents to either blindly repeat how we were parented or overcompensate in the other direction. that's one of the reasons i started this thread, as a reality check for me to be sure i'm not just overcompensating. i'm familiar with most of the objections raised so far and i truly have done a great deal of reading and research about them, which coupled with my own clear-eyed experiences of how my children are responding to our parenting so far, leave me feeling confident with my parenting choices. that said, i think you can find books out there to back up almost any style of parenting (i haven't read it, but this ezzo thing comes to mind.) so ultimately, it comes down to a gut check for me -- are there other reasonable voices out there saying this is healthy and functional? are there parents who have gone the whole way and can report back how it played out? (this is why i was so saddened to hear that tcs had been taken out of discussion here at mdc. i really want to hear what experienced tcs parents have to report) and lastly, how do i feel when i parent my child in this way -- do i feel conflicted, angry, anxious and frustrated with them or do i feel connected, joyous and loving. for me, this style of parenting *once i get past my internal objections that are voiced again and again in the threads above* helps me to see my children more clearly as the beings that they are and that opens up a wellspring of love for me. i can tell that they feel more connected to me too, with spontaneous expressions of love and kindness.

i have to say i completely understand the objections that various parents have raised on this thread -- i had many of those reactions myself and i spent much time asking myself, is this true? what do i observe in my own children?
i've explored parenting them with more rules and limits and how that affected them and me and our experience of the day. i've come to the conclusion that with my children and the personalities they have exhibited so far, they do very well if i let them develop self-discipline with a lot of feedback from me.

i do give them a great deal of guidance. i'm sure that didn't come across in the poll questions, b/c i wasn't really trying to explain or defend how i parented, just interested in who else parents like this. for example, dd may ask for cookies for breakfast and i suggest healthier foods. if she insists. i say, okay it's your choice. when the voices in my head are giving me grief about this, i may refuse to actually get them for her (which i think is inconsistent on my part, but i can't always overcome my reactivity) if she wants more, i repeat that i think her body needs good fuel, but i'll give her another. i'll ask her how she's feeling, i'll talk about the possibilities of stomach aches and sugar crashes. i never tell her she's going to get a stomache ache. that would be lying. i have no way of knowing whether she will eat herself sick or not. to be honest, she never eats enough to make herself feel bad (even though those voices in my head wish that she would so that she'll learn that i'm right and cookies aren't for breakfast!)
we give a great deal of guidance on healthy living but we ultimately tell her that it is her body and she must learn to listen to its needs herself. so far she has. the only time we have really forced anything on her was an emergency room visit and xrays for a tendon that had popped out of place in her forearm and popped back in on its own while we were waiting at the hospital.

so, i'm running out of time here, thank you for asking momtwice. i appreciate being able to offer a bit of clarification as to how i parent. i have read continuum concept, it was one of the first parenting books given to us by likeminded friends at our church. i thought it was very interesting but kept getting caught up by the idea that children want to see us live our lives. i couldn't figure out how to do chores and household tasks while carrying my baby around. it was a jumping off point for me but didn't really provide a complete framework that worked for me.

and i certainly will keep in mind that my children's needs will change. i am prepared to shift parenting gears, but i'll do it thoughtfully and i'll watch their reactions closely ... whups, kids are in conflict. gotta run


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## Alexander (Nov 22, 2001)

You are a naughty girl to put so many multiple posts! Do you think we don't know that it is to rack up your total?










a


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## Alexander (Nov 22, 2001)

You are a naughty girl to put so many multiple posts! Do you think we don't know that it is to rack up your total?










a


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## Alexander (Nov 22, 2001)

You are a naughty girl to put so many multiple posts! Do you think we don't know that it is to rack up your total?










Dammit

a


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## Alexander (Nov 22, 2001)

Dammit

a








ag


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## kimmysue2 (Feb 26, 2003)

Ugh none of them. But then again ask me in 15 years.


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

sueami wrote:

Quote:

ultimately, it comes down to a gut check for me
Can I just say this is 99.99 % of the battle. Two thumbs up!!!!!!

Quote:

how do i feel when i parent my child in this way -- do i feel conflicted, angry, anxious and frustrated with them or do i feel connected, joyous and loving. for me, this style of parenting *once i get past my internal objections that are voiced again and again in the threads above* helps me to see my children more clearly as the beings that they are and that opens up a wellspring of love for me. i can tell that they feel more connected to me too, with spontaneous expressions of love and kindness.

i spent much time asking myself...what do i observe in my own children?
i've explored parenting them with more rules and limits and how that affected them and me and our experience of the day. i've come to the conclusion that with my children and the personalities they have exhibited so far, they do very well if i let them develop self-discipline with a lot of feedback from me.

Well you certainly sound like an awesome mom to me.

And some children may ALWAYS thrive best on self discipline.
For instance have you heard of the Sudbury Valley School model:
(something I read about it Mothering)

http://www.sudval.org/

I guess it's basicallly a school for unschoolers if that makes sense.


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## sueami (Oct 11, 2002)

alexander, you're a nut!

momtwice, i *have* read about that place! i love it. the friends who gave me the continuum concept talked about how they wanted to start a sudbury type school out here... i don't think there's enough demand for it where we are, though...








and thanks for being such a good listener/responder. i needed just this sort of positive feedback!


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## sunbaby (Sep 30, 2002)

sorry i have only read about half the posts, hope i am not totally out of context at this point, i just have to respond even though i ought to be sleeping, or at least showering- darn sueami and her compelling threads.
i voted for half of the choices. i cant really MAKE dd do anything, but i do present some things in such a way that there are not options. it can be done gently and cheerfully as in *hooray! that was a fun bath, now it is time to brush your teeth* and so long as we have established a routine, there isnt a battle over it. (i should mention that dd is only 2.5, so what lies ahead i cannot predict) there have been plenty of times when i have failed to incorporate an important element into our routine, and then we have sorta had to fight it out- letting her know why we must do this thing so it doesnt just seem like arbitrary cruelty- and so the message of love is not lost- by 'fight ot out', i mean talk and talk and be sympathetic to her protests, sometimes i physically hold her, say for diaper changes or teeth brushing, but lightly enough that if she struggles hard i let go and we talk some more or wait a few minutes until she's ready, which has so far always worked. it seems like once she knows she will be set free if she totally cant handle it, then she is ok with it. i see that she is more secure and better off with some firm rules in place- i was raised more or less w/o them, or wishy washy ones anyway, and it didnt do me much good.

and yes oh yes i totally believe in treating the underlying cause of/ feelings behind a behavior rather than just the symptom.

some folks here have already mentioned it- we go with what works for the family as whole, not just one person. that means if dd flips out about going somewhere- it is probably not important enough for me to force it. (when she is older i will push for *fulfilling obligations*.) but it also means that if she cries about getting into the backpack, i still put her in, because i need to hike for my emotional health, and that will ultimately impact her more than a hike she'd rather not take. i am the mom- i see long range consequences that she cannot predict.


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## MamaSoleil (Apr 24, 2002)

Originally posted by Sparklemom:

Quote:

Interestingly some people criticize this type of parenting as "lazy" or "easy" which i find laughable! it reminds me of the parents who let their baby cry it out who accuse those of us who would never let our babies cry it out as doing the "easy" thing by tending to our child's needs. kwim
I could not agree more with that statement!!!

Momtwice~I only have one child so far, another enroute (







), Soleil will be 4 in three wks. So far, I have used this method of parenting. Mindful parenting, I like to call it. When an issue arises, I ask myself, Is this morally threatening? Is this life-threatening? If not, then I just don't make an issue of it, even though I would much rather Soleil not wear that 1981 polka dot dress that she loves so much














:








I think those two questions will get me thru late childhood and adolescence as well. I choose my battles, so that when I say "NO", Soleil knows I did not reach that decision quickly, that I have thought it thru, and though she is encouraged to ask why, once I've said no, it stands.
Many of my friends constantly say no, it's their reaction, almost instinct. When their child asks WHY the answer is no, I can tell they don't really know, and will say something like "Because I said so, that's why.". That is not satisfying, and if they truly thought about why they said no, they might just realize that the child's request is really not that big a deal, and that they really mean yes, but then the child learns that no doesn't always mean no...Sorry if i"ve wandered OT here,

Peacefully,

Mamasoleil


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## alexa07 (Mar 27, 2003)

I read a fascinating study. It said that the part of the brain used in excersing judgment develops very late in life (like after age 18.) I believe that this is definitely true. IMHO kids can't be treated as "mini-adults" who should be making the same decisions adults make. They just don't have the judgment.


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## sparklemom (Dec 11, 2001)

Funny there had to be a "study" to prove that. And then on the other hand our society promotes pushing "independence" at the expense of natural emotional needs. Children/babies are too often expected to behave like 'mini-adults'---when they're not...they're beautiful young creatures entitled to a respect for their natural developement.

"When an issue arises I ask myself 'is this morally threatening? Is this life threatening? If not, then I just don't make an issue of it,..." Exactly!


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by alexa07_
*I read a fascinating study. It said that the part of the brain used in excersing judgment develops very late in life (like after age 18.) I believe that this is definitely true. IMHO kids can't be treated as "mini-adults" entitled to make the same decisions adults make. They just don't have the judgment.*
That is profound. Because if this study is true (I think so) then Dr. Laura is right... kids should not be allowed to date until they are 18. (That's one of her rant & raves.) Perhaps not even allowed to drive...


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## alexa07 (Mar 27, 2003)

I think we would all probably be safer if we didn't drive until we were 18.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Wow, all this describes my ideal parenting philosophy; the one I would follow if only I weren't so darn impatient!









I said yes to the food thing - we don't have scheduled eating times, she nurses when she wants to, and if she doesn't want what is put before her I will get her something else. She also gets to eat anything I am eating that she asks for.

The sleep thing, I did not check. She usually goes to bed at the same time each night because dh and I want our "adult time."

We don't spank but we do send her to her room when she screams at us or when she hits or scratches.

She doesn't talk yet (is about 18 mos) so no need for politeness. We just ask that she not scream.

We only make her brush her teeth when she has candy or soda. (That food thing again - whatever she wants!) Normally she likes it.

If she doesn't want to go to the park we just take her home, but we do have people baby-sit and she doesn't always want to be away from us.









I try to leave her at home when shopping. She gets bored so easily.

If I do have to take her to the store, I always buy her a box of cookies. I mean, she didn't ask to come along, so I should do something nice for her. I don't believe in saying no unless there is a good reason. Since I buy everything dh and I want when we're at the store, why not a treat for dd as well?

She hasn't been afraid of the doctor yet. She doesn't like shots but we just make the best of it - we use EMLA and then give her some ice cream.

But, thanks for the poll! It has inspired me to do better.


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## sueami (Oct 11, 2002)

okay, *totally* off-topic here. not that anyone is in the least bit interested in this bit of self-involved blather. (except you, lizajanesmom







)
i originally posted something in this space saying i was going to stretch my boundaries in the area of being afraid to debate with people i don't know and feel safe with and that i wanted to argue with this study about being able to make judgements.
and i made my little argument and then i logged off.
and i sat there feeling uncomfortable, and i tried to figure out what it was about. and after i while i came up with this -- that i have clung to the untrue belief for a long time that i am afraid of confrontation. and that believing that fiction involves believing in another untrue belief, that it is important to stand up for what you believe in.
in fact, it occurred to me, the most important thing is to be kind. period. and it felt wonderful to me to think that i don't have to be a wimp and i don't have to stand up for my thoughts and beliefs either. i just have to be kind.
we are all going to believe what makes sense to us and it is not kind to tell someone that you think they are wrong. maybe they are. maybe they aren't. maybe someday they'll ask me if i think they're wrong, and then i can tell them what i think. maybe someday i'll change my mind about thinking they're wrong. maybe someday i'll realize it was all quite irrelevant.
and why am i telling you all this? i have no idea. probably because i can't figure out how to make the damn delete post button work and i didn't want to leave just an empty post sitting there for all to wonder what i said and repented.
so, carry on with your usual discussions...
warmly,
susan


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## MamaSoleil (Apr 24, 2002)

Quote:

we are all going to believe what makes sense to us and it is not kind to tell someone that you think they are wrong. maybe they are. maybe they aren't. maybe someday they'll ask me if i think they're wrong, and then i can tell them what i think. maybe someday i'll change my mind about thinking they're wrong. maybe someday i'll realize it was all quite irrelevant.
This is my daily struggle exactly. I parent differently than a lot of aquaintances and even my sister. But unless they ask me my opinion, I do not push my ideal onto them. Am I right, or are they right? Guess we will find out in about 15 yrs. Until then, I will continue to follow my instincts! The best I can do right?

Mamasoleil


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## Mallory (Jan 2, 2002)

Quote:

It said that the part of the brain used in excersing judgment develops very late in life (like after age 18.) I believe that this is definitely true.
I am not saying that 3 year olds always have the best judgement, but I think that the prolonged dependance on adults that children in this soceity have is not good. For most of human history after about the age of 14 or so most children were considered adults. They were considered to have the same abilities, judgement, resposibilites, ect of any other adult. I think that it is our society that "tells" highschoolers and college kids that thier thoughts, actions, beliefs don't make a difference and that they shouldn't be mature or resposible yet. I mean there are so many things that you are not resposible enough to do until 18 or 21 or 25, why bother.

I believe that children (and teenagers and young adults) live up to your expectations. It is clear in our society we don't expect resposiblilty from 18 year olds.


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

It's been very interesting reading this thread. I've agreed with a little bit of what almost everyone has said. (which probalby just means I'm a very confused parent, right?).









My two children are young (3.5 years and 2 years), so we do a lot of 'guiding'...but essentially, we do want our children to make decisions for themselves. Although as I said before, I do think that children need to be aware that their decisions impact on other people, and that needs to be taken into account.

As our children get older, dh and I are committed to parenting in a 'democratic' fashion...i.e., when there are problems, sitting down together to figure out a solution that works for ALL of us. I'm wondering how this fits in with those of you who checked all of the boxes - is that how you see yourself parenting/how you parent?

This is already beginning to work with my oldest. When she's upset about something, we talk about it and try to come up with a workable 'solution' (that's her new favourite word). She needs a bit of guidance, but has come up with some good ideas on her own...

I would think that as kids get older, the ideas will flow faster. And even if they don't always flow as fast as we would like, I do think it is important to give our kids responsibility for coming up with their own solutions to problems, rather than imposing them from above. With helpful/necessary parental guidance, of course.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I think children of all ages are far more intelligent and capable than we will ever be able to measure. Likewise, adults often do not make the best decisions either. Children may run into the street, while adults drink and drive. It is because adults are not making the right choices that children are not allowed in the street!

My goal is also democratic parenting. I don't think it works now since dd can't talk but when she does I think it will be a lot easier. Like if she wants something different to eat or to wear, now all she can do is cry about it so it's easy to get frustrated and say "OK, one more new food or clothing change and that's it!"


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## hydrangea (Jun 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by alexa07_
*I read a fascinating study. It said that the part of the brain used in excersing judgment develops very late in life (like after age 18.) I believe that this is definitely true. IMHO kids can't be treated as "mini-adults" who should be making the same decisions adults make. They just don't have the judgment.*
I'd be interested in seeing this study.

My personal feeling is that 18 and 21 are arbitrary ages to create laws around and they create lots of problems. As Mallory said, historically humans have become adults closer to 14. Now we have young adults in school and requiring parental permission for just about anything that is actually legal for them. Imagine what society might be like if the government put their trust in parents and parents put their trust in their children. I personally believe we would see a decrease in many of the problems surrounding teens today.

I'd love to see another study that compares the results of that study to the judgment in teens who have been given more freedom by their parents and perhaps their government. Some countries do allow young adults much more freedom.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I'd like to see the study, too... I know of theories of development that posit that, but no studies.

I ws interested in MomTwice's post (since my kid is 10







. I think the message I send is not so much "Do what you want", but more "Do what you want, but I will feel free to give you my opnion about it, and if you chose something I feel is really unwise I will try to be there in case you wind up in trouble". What feels scary to a kid, I think, is to feel like you're all alone making decisions. I think there's a way to be with your child, without imflicting your will upon them. I'm not sure if I'd even say "guide", because that sounds like steering, and she steers... I advise, I guess. I talk about my experiences, and share my thoughts. I'm there...

Dar


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## Kylix (May 3, 2002)

Sorry, I've been out of town so I'm a little late joining back in but I wanted to respond to this comment.

Quote:

If I wanted *me* time I probably should have not had children. The way I see it, this time is JUST for my children.
To me, that makes no sense. That's like someone saying about their husband "If I wanted *me* time I probably should have not gotten married. The way I see it, this time is JUST for my marriage."

Knowing myself, I know there are times when I just need a chance to catch my breath and be alone. I'm not saying I would force my child to go to bed. The alternatives don't appeal to me: i.e. CIO or strict bedtimes. But respect for such ppl who need this and see this as a disservice would be nice.

I want to say I do agree with this "parenting philosophy" if you can even call it that. I think that children can and should be able to make decisions for themselves.

However, sometimes the needs of different people clash (including parents and children) and a compromise has to take place. I think it is unfair to everyone for one party to ALWAYS have to be the one to give in.

Kylix


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

I read a fascinating study. It said that the part of the brain used in excersing judgment develops very late in life (like after age 18.) I believe that this is definitely true. IMHO kids can't be treated as "mini-adults" who should be making the same decisions adults make. They just don't have the judgment.

Perhaps if children in our society were allowed to make their own decisions and use their own judgements (like in the ways suggested in this poll) they would develop this part of the brain much more quickly. If we impose a set list of rules and guidelines that absolutely must be followed children are not learning to use their own judgement, just following blindly what we have laid out for them.

Having a child who cannot be "guided", manipulated, coerced, or forced into doing anything he does not wish to do has really taught me how right these ideals are (in our family anyway). We provide an environment where making the "ideal" choice is easy and leave it up to him. We only have healthy food in the house, so eating only ice cream and cookies would not happen. Bathtime can take place any time and any toy in the house can go into the tub. If he chooses to have a ton of bubbles, or to add blue or green to the water that is fine. I can't force him to sleep, and he has gone weeks on almost no sleep. He learned that he did not feel well when exhausted all the time and now goes to bed without a struggle. He can brush my teeth if I expect to brush his. It works (so far) and all of us are happy, healthy, and relatively clean. If and when his needs (or ours) should change then so will our approach. In cases where anyone's well being is truly threatened (lets face it, being overtired is not a life-threatening condition) then safety wins out every time. (that much should be common sense though







)

JMHO
Laurie


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## sunbaby (Sep 30, 2002)

i think that my original inclination is to parent democratically.

two things have swayed me from this just a bit- one is the book 'reviving ophelia', (which is only one person's study, but really resonated w/ me). it is a study of girls, parented in different ways, and their ability to cope through adolecence.

her conclusion was that the girls who were parented in authoritarian, loving, and consistent way from birth to adulthood were secure and stable adolecents who tended to see things in a rather simplistic, black and white way: rule followers, basically.

the girls who were raised in democratic households were dynamic, bright think for yourself types, but deeply troubled (think depression, sex, drugs); perhaps kids need to be sheltered, have some decisions made for them , because in todays world, there are too many chioces- the responsibility of deciding for yourself every time is just too overwhelming, some of the possibilities too scary, realities too sad to assimilate it all at an age when you can barely even cope w/ a bad hair day, kwim?

so the best solution offered, (and she admitted not a fool proof one) was to begin the childs life parenting in a sheltering, loving, authoritarian way, and then as the child gets older to very gradually lean more towards a democratic style.

ok, so that was my understanding of the book anyway (anyone else read it and have a different take? that would be a whole new fun thread) and i believe it matches fairly well with the waldorf approach. there are lotsa things about waldorf that arent exactly my natural style, and yet i know so many (at least 5 or 6) kids who attend this particular waldorf school and they are all not only exceptionally neat, but also unbelievably well adjusted teens. so that really gets my attention, and i am taking some hints.


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

That's really interesting, sunbaby - makes me want to go out and buy (yet another!) book.







DH has just spent all this money on a new (to him) guitar, so I probably will...reading for our vacation in July, maybe.

What you are saying makes sense to me on a purely practical level. I'm not comfortable with my 2 year old choosing to eat cookies for breakfast, choosing not to have her teeth brushed, choosing to play in the front on the house (we live on a busy main road), etc.

There are some choices that I am just not willing to allow my young children to make...yet as they grow older, I see the importance of allowing them to make more and more choices (even ones I'm not happy with) themselves.

In a sense, I dont' think that parenting democratically is entirely possible with children the ages mine are. So...we try, as much as possible, but there are some things we insist on (although that said - we 'insist' in the way that many of the posters here 'encourage'...I think the difference is that we would continue to insist even if the encouragement didn't work...which it generally does).

I would not be comfortable raising my young children in such a way that their wants (note: not needs) always took precedence over mine or those of the family as a whole.

It's interesting what you say about girls raised in a democratic fashion, though, sunbaby. I'm doing a child development course right now, and from what I've read, in cultures where teenagers are given adult responsibilities from an early age (say - 13/14 or so), there is very little of the typical 'teenage rebellion' we see in Western cultures....I'm wondering how this would fit in with the 'Reviving Ophelia' study?


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

I posted the following on the gentle discipline vs. spoiling thread and I think it applies here too. It talks about how we need to live in the moment and do what is best at the time...

"What attachment parenting is not" By Dr. William Sears

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/10/t130400.asp

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Attachment parenting is not indulgent parenting....attachment parenting is responding appropriately to your baby's needs, which means knowing when to say "yes" and when to say "no."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Attachment parenting is not rigid. On the contrary, it has options and is very flexible. Attachment mothers speak of a flow between themselves and their baby; a flow of thoughts and feelings that help a mother pull from her many options the right choice at the right time when confronted with the daily "what do I do now?" baby-care decisions. The connected pair mirror each other's feelings. The baby perceives himself by how the mother reflects his value. This insight is most noticeable in the mother's ability to get behind the eyes of her child and read her child's feelings during discipline decisions. One day our two-year-old, Lauren, impulsively grabbed a carton of milk out of the refrigerator and spilled it on the floor. As Lauren was about to disintegrate, Martha mellowed out the situation and preserved the fragile feelings of a sensitive child and prevented the angry feelings of inconvenienced parents. When I asked how she managed to handle things so calmly, she said, "I asked myself if I were Lauren, how would I want my mother to respond?"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Wow.









I'm not usually shocked by MDC threads but this one practically took my breath away. I think I need to re-read options and replies, because I did not check any of them (except the thing about saying No "on principle").

I strive to fully respect my children in a myriad of ways, but... they're CHILDREN and I do not let them parent themselves; I see it as my (and dh's) role to teach them things like taking care of themselves (including brushing teeth, eating nutritious meals), being thoughtful (including saying sorry), and so on. I interpreted almost all of these poll options as letting the child parent herself and run around like a bull in the china shop of life... no limits, no boundaries, just doing whatever she wants regardless of the impact.

So I think I need to take some time and re-read to make sure I didn't miss something.







:







:


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## jannan (Oct 30, 2002)

was interesting . I didn't vote for any of it. dd has to brush her teeth, eat what is for dinner and go to the dentist. I'm surprized no one has called AP hippie parenting. and i'm not into negociating. It is true. children cannot parent themselves.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I don't see this list as "hippie stuff." I was raised by a self-proclaimed hippie who was way into spankings and parent-knows-best and because-I-said-so.

I see this list as respectful behavior toward children. It is the way I would want people to act with me. I would never want my dh to tell me "Well, this is what you're having for dinner!" or "No, you are going to the doctor and that's that!" I'm sure most people can relate to being told things like that.

I don't do the stuff I checked all the time, though. I might let dd skip a routine doctor visit but not an emergency one, and sometimes I tell her no or make her hold still, but I try to make sure it doesn't happen that often. I just have to do what works for both of us.


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## jannan (Oct 30, 2002)

I see the list as children telling parents what they are are going to do. children need our guidence. example: last night for dinner there was rice,beans, meat and vegetables. that is what is for dinner. dd wanted cheetos(the organic kind from the natural food store) I told her that cheetos were not on the menu , that this is what her father cooked. she accepted it and ate it.If a child is telling you at 3 or 4 they are not going to the dr. or they are not going to brush their teeth , that is fine they can protest, but in the end the adult (parent) needs to make the decisions that will benefit your daughter.


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## MamaSoleil (Apr 24, 2002)

Being mindful and respectful is not letting your kids walk all over you. And I fully agree with Greaseball that this is not a HIPPIE thing, because some hippies, like already mentionned, spank and have no respect for the children, just as any person really.

I think this list is about respecting, and not violating your child. Of course your child needs to brush her/his teeth, but at what cost? I have never had any major issues on things, but for example. Last night, I picked up dd from Montessori, then she went to hang out with Grandma for a couple of hrs, they went for a walk and played with her cousin in the pool. She came home at 640pm, she was exausted. I had had a stressful couple of hrs. I said to Soleil, okay, bathtime..she said, Mom, I'm really tired, do you think we can skip the bath tonight? She was asleep by 710.

Now, what would you have done in that situation? Would you have forced the issue, because you are in charge, not the child? I felt Soleil was right, she was tired, wanted to go to sleep. I respected her wishes. She was not 'walking all over me'.

Mamasoleil


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

T
At LLL we learned that tooth decay had more to do with genetics than hygiene. There were people there who had never picked up a toothbrush until puberty and never had cavities. I only brush dd's teeth when she eats candy, but I would not make her do it if she did not want to. I find that she wants to do what I want her to do more often if I just don't make a big deal of it.

I think threads like this just remind us all of the different parenting styles here at MDC...

Also, rather than give her everything she wants and do completely without myself, I think it's almost always possible to balance needs. Like with food, dd can't talk so can only request a specific food by pointing at it. I take her by the table, fridge and cupboards and if she does not point at anything, I sit her in her chair and bring her 3 choices of food, one after the other. If she refuses all of them then mealtime is just put off until she is hungry enough to choose something or point at a food.

And with bedtime, I decide when she has to go to her room and give the adults some quiet time, but I don't tell her she has to go to sleep. I give her food, toys and books and she sleeps when she's done playing. I think we both get what we want that way.

But some things just get "no" for an answer - hitting the chickens, not getting out of the doghouse when the dog wants in, throwing books, banging on the glass door with a coffee cup, etc. All I can do here is hope she will like the alternative activity I offer her.


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

I don't see how this is letting children "parent themselves". Why assume that because a child is allowed to make their own decisions that they will make the wrong decisions? We prefer to trust our child, and know that he will trust us in return.

We choose to lead by example and trust that our child will follow that example. He is learning manners because we are polite to him. When he gives us something we say "thank you", now he says it too because he has grown up with it being a natural part of interacting with others. If we make a mistake, yell, or are disrespectfull to him we say sorry, so he will learn that when he is disrespectful to others he should say sorry. For eating, if he does not want to eat what we cook he can choose something else (I don't cook something seperate, but he can have anything he can get for himself). We only keep healthy options, so anything he chooses is okay. If we only buy healthy things, and we only eat healthy things, then he will have that example to follow. Most importantly, he will have practice in making healthy choices.

Realistically, what choices will a child make that will be detrimental to them later on? I mean a couple of days of no teeth brushing will not make all his teeth fall out and a week without a bath will not cause irrepairable damage. Showing him that we trust him to make decisions now, when the decisions are small and safe, will help him to have the ability, experience, and confidence to make the bigger decisions later when it will really matter.

JMO

Laurie


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## sparklemom (Dec 11, 2001)

akirasmama,


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Well I re-read everything very slowly and carefully... and I still pretty much have the same opinion. This is definitely not AP being described, though I think that's plainly obvious to everybody (e.g., the thread title itself: "beyond AP").

Also, this is definitely not my parenting style. I am extremely gentle, patient, respectful and strive to meet my children's needs fully as soon as I can. But on the main, it's their needs I'm trying to meet, not just their wants - I see it that I as the parent need to make sure it's the need that wins out (most of the time) when the two cannot coincide together (e.g., the Cheetos vs. balanced supper example). In my family that means they NEED to say sorry when they hurt someone (even at the age of 1, we're starting with "Ouch that hurts your sister! I know you want her toy very badly, but you may not hit her." said firmly but gently.. and so on), they NEED to eat well most of the time, they NEED to learn to fit into our family and sometimes that means doing something or going somewhere they don't want to go (like church), and yeah they NEED to take care of their teeth and gums regardless of whether they'd rather have a candy bar than brush their teeth!

That being said, I do think that MDC is so great because even extreme viewpoints are heard and respected, and even though it's not my personal style, I say if it's working for you, more power to you!


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I also don't think that just because I'm older, I know best. Dh is almost 17 years older than me and has 3 master's degrees, but that doesn't mean he knows more about what I need and what are good choices for me than I do!


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## sueami (Oct 11, 2002)

well, quite a bit of discussion. all i guess i want to add (and it's really been said in one form or another already) is that i wish that those of you who feel strongly that this is a terrible way to parent could come to my house for a couple of days and see how it looks in action and how my children behave. i am so proud of my daughter when she chooses a healthy food, volunteers to share a toy or says thank you to a visitor b/c i know that she really feels those healthy, positive, considerate emotions and is not just trying to please my or keep my love. (and when she doesn't, i understand that it is a long learning process and i can be patient with it by remembering the successes.)
i do understand that it is an intense and difficult way to parent, i think in large part b/c it goes against our cultural conditioning and we have to fight a lot of inner resistence to do so, at least i do.
good luck to all of us in this most challenging task,
susan


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

I'm trying to meet, not just their wants
I think we are all trying to meet our children's needs. I feel my child NEEDS to be respected, NEEDS to be trusted, NEEDS to be in control to what happens to HIS body, etc.

Just to bring up another benefit....by allowing him control over his own body I feel I am keeping him safe in the long run. If he can feel that he is able to say no to me when I try to impose something on him (specifically on his body) he will also feel comfortable saying no when others might try to impose something on his body. I may only be trying to force a toothbrush in his mouth, but others intentions may not be so pure. There are many ways to teach children about being safe, saying no to peer pressure, etc. but allowing them the freedom and support and teaching them they can trust their own judgement can only futher this goal.

It is simply a matter of trust and respect for us, to treat him the way we wish to be treated, and the way we hope others will treat him. Obviously if he was suffering due to our approach we would not be fullfilling this obligation. I think that some may not understand the reality of parenting this way, which is why they may be shocked. In reality my ds eats very well, is pretty clean, very polite, and so much fun to be with, which ain't bad for a spirited kid who loves to go, go, go









Laurie


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## sueami (Oct 11, 2002)

i thought your post was well-said, laurie.
i'd just like to add that if this were truly a disfunctional way to parent, we'd have horrible monsters for children and we'd either have abandoned it or be here at mdc begging for help with our out-of-control children. if you take a larger view of the posts in gentle discipline, you may notice that the majority of parents who post with behavioral problems or issues are parenting in the more directive, i-need-to-make certain-decisions-for-my-child (and-help-because-s/he-keeps-throwing-fits-about -it) style that has been discussed here.
susan, unable to resist a bit of debating even though she swore it off earlier (and telling herself she's not really arguing, just balancing out the discussion for any lurkers who are debating this for their own purposes.







: i know, i'm deluding myself)


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

my children eat what they want, when they want. i encourage healthy choices but let them have the final say
Well, pretty much. I present healthy options, and they choose what they want. If they don't like something in front of them, they can choose something else. The only qualifier being that it can't be sugary dessert stuff.

Of course, this doesn't mean that I jump up from my dinner to fix something else for them. They can get up and get a banana or a yogurt. Or they can wait until I'm done, and then I'll fix them a sandwhich.

Quote:

my children go to bed when they are tired. i do not set a bedtime, even tho i want conscious time to myself at night
We talk with them about when their bedtime should be. We agree on it early in the evening, depending on how tired they seem. They are expected to follow through with the time they've agreed to. If they lay in bed and can't sleep, one of us will sit with them for awhile, or sometimes they can get up for a few more minutes if they really can't sleep. Reading in bed is always a choice -- they don't need to ask.

Quote:

i don't punish/gently discipline my child. i view anti-social behavior as a symptom of an unmet need/frustration and attempt to meet the need and brainstorm w/my child other ways of getting her need met in the future
Nah. Sometimes there are other reasons for anti-social behavior. We don't generally punish. There are often logical consequences and long disscussions though.

Quote:

i don't make my child say please, thank you or i'm sorry, but i talk alot about how helpful these words are in our social intercourse
I don't make my child say these things. If they hurt someone, I ask them to "check in" and I strongly encourage them to. The other day my older son accidentally gave my little son a bloody nose, and then ran off to play!!!







I stopped him and told him that I knew it was accident, but that he needed to think of something helpful to do about it! He went and found a peice of his own candy and gave it to his brother.

Quote:

if i cannot convince my children to brush their teeth through playful means, i try again at night, the next morning. i never force it
We certainly cajole a good bit... but we make sure it is done. This is a matter of health, IMO.

Quote:

i do not forcibly bathe my children, brush their hair or make them change their clothes, no matter how much i may cringe at their appearance
Again, we get these things done. It usually involves a fair amount of cajolling. They choose their own outfits. Sometimes I ask them to change, esp. if they come down in something clearly too small! Often, my older son will refuse, and in the end we discover he just wants company or assistance. But we get these things accomplished in the end.

Quote:

if they do not want to go to the park/disneyland/grandma's house, and i can't convince them it's in their best interest we do not go. i don't buy tix to such outings without getting their okay
I agree with this. Though, I don't deprive the other child. We split up and one parent stays home, or we find a sitter.

Quote:

ditto for running errands. i get a babysitter or dh to watch them if i don't think we can get through the errand without running into a conflict
I also agree with this, to some extent. I've started telling my older son that he has a responsibility to cooperate with some errands, and I explain to him that even though it isn't fun -- in the end it means we get to have food. We've had a lot of talks about how he can contribute to our household by cooperating with errands. We're getting there... slowly.

Quote:

if my child wants a treat on an outing/errand, i don't say no "on principle". I may negotiate a less expensive treat if necessary
Of course! I agree with this 100%!

Quote:

i don't force my child to go to routine dr or dentist visits. if roleplaying doesn't alleviate fears, we put off the appt
I guess this just hasn't been a real issue for us. I definately wouldn't force the routine dentist visit. We've been okay at the dr's just because I hold my kid though whole entire time, and the doc. is very sweet to them... I can't imagine there being a big issue...


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

When my inlaws cut dd's hair, I realized that I really do care about her looks. But when I tried to even it out, she screamed, so I decided not to. It's not worth scaring her just to make her look better.

I do change her clothes if they get dirty. At 18 months she has not shown a preference for any type of clothing so I figure I still get to choose it. She gets a bath every week or so, when her hair starts getting greasy, but fortunately she likes the bath.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I guess I think of AP as no more or less than this : meeting your child's needs in a way that supports attachment.

I think the ap philosophy is helpful in deciding how to parent your child in various situations without making them feel isolated.

I don't think there is an ap answer to a question like "Should I let my kid live on a diet of ice cream?". Is that an attachment issue? Personally, I don't think so. It could be a gentle discipline issue. But assuming the parent isn' t going to spank or scream at the child, I doubt you could really say whether a "yes" or "no" answer is the correct "ap" response.

I also want to point out that there are a number of differences between true democratic parenting and the TCS philosophy.

If you read Summerhill, one of the earliest works on democratic child care, you will discover that the author repeatedly cautions against parents who let go of common sense in the name of idealizing democratic parenting. He specifically gives the example of what to do with a clearly over tired, crying toddler, who doesn't go to bed. "Put him to bed, of course", is his reply. He criticizes loudly parents who don't take safety precautions in order to satisfy the demand of their child (he gives the example of whether to put fireguards in nursery windows). He also shares the story of a child who drowned at Summerhill, nearly closing down the school such was their grief. They had not required lifeguards, but afterwards, they always did. The longer Neill worked with democratic childcare, the more comfortable he seemed to become with parents making safety or health decisions whether or not their child liked the idea.

I also want to point out that it is much more difficult to have a democracy of two people than one of twenty. Within democratic schools, for example, if a child refuses to put food in the garbage, resulting in roaches in the kitchen, all kids can put the issue to a vote. They could vote into existence a rule that demands a fine be paid if you leave food on the floor.

It is much harder to work that out with just a mom and kid at home. Some decisions will have to be made that appear, probably, one sided and authoritarian, but would not look that way if worked out with a larger group of people.

Additonally, in "The Continuum Concept", Liedloff mentions village parents have a zero tolerance policy for kids using the huts as bathrooms. They are swiftly reprimanded and shooed outside if they fail to respect that rule. Also, while she gives the impression that village kids were never hurt due to their handling of dangerous objects, she goes on to recount an incident where she treats the nearly severed finger of a toddler. And later reviews of the village by others note that in fact many of the children had scars from accidents.

I have yet to find, in any book, compelling evidence that children are harmed by, or that is unnatural for parents to make, the occasional safety or health decision in spite of the child's reluctance or resistance.

I think it may actually be one of the most fundamental, natural parts of parenting, to determine safe boundaries and work hard to keep your offspring within those boundaries until they learn to respect them. It seems to be the surest path to ensuring surivival in most mammal species.

Just some thoughts I hope will add to this discusion....


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## MamaSoleil (Apr 24, 2002)

Originally posted by Heartmama:

Quote:

I have yet to find, in any book, compelling evidence that children are harmed by, or that is unnatural for parents to make, the occasional safety or health decision in spite of the child's reluctance or resistance.
This is where the whole, is it life threatening, or morally threatening question comes in. There has never been a question for example, of letting Soleil playing in the rd, to learn on her own what the consequences are!
Soleil understands this, just as the time last summer when she ventured out of the yard on her own, my instinct was a yell, I called for her is a psychotic voice, I swear. She answers, I'm over here mama....I ran to her and held her SUPER hard, hugging like, and told her how much she scared me, and how she can NEVER do that again. AS I calmed down, we discussed it at great length. She has never done it again.
IF safety is involved, then I step in. Otherwise, I allow her the space to be a child, explore and discover consequences. A banana for supper will not hold her for the night. She'll wake up at 2am, and say, I'm SO hungry, I'll say, (quite tiredly), you chose to pass on supper and have a banana, which is why you are now hungry, you now have to wait until morning, and have a great big breakfast. She hears the truth in that, and consequently, has learned something.
Soleil rarely walks away from a lesson without learning on her own. I am proud of her. And I know, that if a stranger were to try to impose something on her, she will/would have the confidence to stand up for herself, as she has always been respected.

Peace,

Mamasoleil


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## alexa07 (Mar 27, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by mamasoleil_
*I allow her the space to be a child, explore and discover consequences. A banana for supper will not hold her for the night. She'll wake up at 2am, and say, I'm SO hungry, I'll say, (quite tiredly), you chose to pass on supper and have a banana, which is why you are now hungry, you now have to wait until morning, and have a great big breakfast. She hears the truth in that, and consequently, has learned something.

Mamasoleil*

This is what I do also and it is in my mind quite different than what some people advocate here. They would say children should be allowed to eat whenever they feel like it. For me, no. I do not make my kids eat anything they don't want. But they can't eat any time they "feel like it." If they skip a meal, they learn the consequence is to wait until the next planned meal or snack.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Maybe what she's learned is that when make a mistake mom won't be there to help out - in fact, she'll be there saying "I told you so."







I don't want my kid learning that lesson...

I would get up and fix her a bowl of cereal or toast or something, assuming this is a child unable to do this for herself. I might grump a bit and be tired, but this isn't something the kid intentionally did to ruin your sleep, it was an error in judgement. *I* wake up hungry in the middle of the night every so often. I personally would be worried about teaching a child not to listen to her body's hunger signals, too... but most importantly, I want to model kindness.

And when things like this happened in our house, even when Rain was very little, they generally didn't happen more than once, and she generally appreciated what I did.

Dar


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## hydrangea (Jun 5, 2002)

I'd like to say I'd get up too, but I am not very functional when I'm woken up from sleep. I think if my kids did that, I'd have to put them off until morning. And if they were hungry and miserable enough that they did get me up, I'd have a very hard time being gracious about it. I am not very much in control of myself when I'm that tired and sleepy.


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:

I do not make my kids eat anything they don't want. But they can't eat any time they "feel like it." If they skip a meal, they learn the consequence is to wait until the next planned meal or snack.
The reason this approach does not jibe for me is, I feel it teaches a child an unhealthy message. I feel it teaches them:
"Hmmm I better stuff myself and ignore my full sensations at this meal/snack because if I don't, I will get hungry at the 'wrong' time and won't get any food" and "I can't trust my body to tell me if I am full or hungry, since my mom is telling me I am wrong about it so often." I think this approach encourages overeating and obesity in my humble opinion.

My kids often complain about the fact that at school they are not allowed to eat when they are hungry, but only at the one morning snack time and at lunch time.

But if an older child were hungry at night, I can empathize with asking them to wait until morning if mom is exhausted...what I sometimes will do is say you can go the kitchen and get a drink of soymilk (another mom might say cow's milk.) Times like that I miss nighttime nursing! Yes, when your kids outgrow it you may find you have to help them if they wake up hungry! How many of us woke up ravenous in the night while pregnant?


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

If one of my kids asked for a snack in the middle of the night, I'd definately get up and help them fix it! But its never happened. Probably, that is why I'd do it -- because it would be so unusual that I would take it seriously. I can only imagine how awful it would feel to lie in bed hungry.

Alternately, I could send my older son down to fix something by himself, and I probably would do that if it were him waking hungry.

'


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## MamaSoleil (Apr 24, 2002)

The example I gave hasn't happened yet, when she was younger, I got up I think twice because she was hungry, and I didn't feel she understood the correlation from not eating her supper. NOw, she is big enough to help herself to a yogurt or something. But personally, like Hydrangea said, I'm not um, gracious in the middle of the night.
It's funny because the biggest fight dh and I have is about eating. I really don't want to force Soleil to eat, I was forced as a child, my parents would make me sit at the dinner table until bedtime. I came out of childhood with food issues, big time. I'm just starting to let go now. My mother told me it was also an ongoing struggle with my dad, they did not agree on many parenting tactics.

Peace,

Mamasoleil


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I don't say no on principle, we have always asked her opinion regarding doing things, and going places. I'll admit that when she was too young to stay home alone and I had no one to watch her she had to come when I ran errands. Now, she either stays home alone, goes to a friends or goes if she wants to. I don't do routine Dr visits, she only goes if she is sick enough to need medical care as opposed to home care.

I do some limiting of food. I do not buy soda on a regular basis and we limit the amount of sweets.


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## sunbaby (Sep 30, 2002)

how does all this fit in with the idea of routine? for me, stuff like bathing, teeth brushing, meals are not only related to physical health, but also creating a feeling for dd that she knows what to expect when. of course, there are exceptions made for special circumstances, but i try to keep these to a minimum. even if she protests to a particular action one night, she seems to do better overall if i am pretty firm. for example, if she flips out because she wants something different for dinner, and i say 'this is what we are having' (with a cheerful, rather than confrontational tone) she gets over it pretty fast- if i start offering alternatives, she cant decide/ doesnt want anything, and it can escalate into a major fit which is usually resolved in my just feeding her what was originally offered. ok- it doesnt always go this way- arg- its always different- we pretty much just have to go with our instincts on what approach will work best for her at a particular moment. but i do think that making too many decisions for herself seems to create anxiety. i can really relate to a lot of the views being expressed here, while at the same time seeing some truth in their exact opposites.

with the hungry in the middle of the night example- i would be leery of getting up, just because dd does seem to turn such things into habbits (creates her own routine?)- so maybe i'd do it for one night, but if it happened again tomorrow, well, we'd need to work something else out.


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## sunbaby (Sep 30, 2002)

wanted to add: i was parented with the, 'well, if she really doesnt want to brush her teeth, i wont push it' approach, and i dont think it was very good for my sense of stability and safety- i think there is comfort in knowing that some things are not optional, also promotes self discipline later maybe- as in, sometimes we gotta do things that we dont want- i am also pretty weak in this area. not to mention that my hegien skills were developed much later than i woulda liked (as in, i wasnt very consistent about brushing my teeth until i was like 16). but then the argument about a kid owning thier body, not letting someone do something they dont want to it is compelling- geez. its so hard to know what to do.


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## sylviamama (Dec 30, 2002)

I'm not sure what MDC protocol is for jumping in on a thread that is already 4 pages long (without voting on the poll to boot), but I thought I'd reply because I've been watching this thread for a few days now and am completely intrigued. I think it's the most interesting one I've seen so far - I must admit I've only been browsing since August (and I've only got 100+ posts as opposed to those of you with 1000+







).

I didn't vote because my 12 mo dd doesn't protest errands or doctor visits yet (she occasionally protests the carseat, period - nevermind knowing whether we're headed to the playground or the doctor or to grandma's). She goes to sleep when she's tired - not because I choose not to have a bedtime, but because she's a co-sleeping baby and how else would she sleep? She doesn't eat whatever she wants because I'm not going to give her popcorn even if she's begging for a taste cause she'll probably choke on it. She would rather brush her teeth and take a shower than almost anything else, so we haven't had to make a conscious choice about that either. And what else? I haven't bought her any treats while we're on errands cause I haven't thought there's a concept in her head of anything other than "I want to hold that and put it in my mouth", but then we leave it in the store cause she's just as happy with the package of whatever we've just purchased (she does get a balloon whenever we go to Trader Joe's though - but I don't have to pay for it so that's not a choice I've thought much about). I bought her a toy in an airport store once, but she didn't ask - I just thought it'd be a good idea to have something "new" for the plane ride.

So anyway, the point I wanted to make is that upon reading this poll the first thought in my head was "that doesn't sound like attachment parenting, but it sure as heck sounds like permissive parenting." Almost everything I've learned in my early childhood education training (I'm a former infant/toddler and preschool teacher, and currently teaching in a children's room at a science museum) supports that young children NEED boundaries, limits, etc. They need to know that adults are in charge, will take care of them, etc. and that's why they test the limits that are placed. So if it's not a safety issue, but an issue of thinking of others, what do you do?

What if YOU are hungry for supper, but dd doesn't want to leave the playground to go home so you can cook it? Do you suffer with a grumbling tummy? What if you've told your mom that you're coming to the family reunion, but ds would rather go to a friend's birthday party? Does the tribe/family take a back seat to your child's wish to go to the rollerdome? What if you have healthy food choices in the house, but dd chooses to eat only bread, pasta, and crackers? What if ds is hungry for supper at 4:30, dd at 5:00, yourself at 6:00, and your spouse at 6:30? Do you never eat together? In addition to the ECC training, I've done lots of personal reading, gone to workshops, etc. on parenting and it seems that most folks/studies are in agreement that an authoritarian style (with increasing choices as children grow older/mature) turns out the most well-adjusted kids.

I want to raise dd in the MOST respectful way possible, but I just can't seem to marry these ideals with the practical situations of life or with what I "know" of children's needs. I'm sure that the children of those of you who practice this parenting style are well-behaved and secure, etc. I WOULD like to go to your house to see it action, cause I just can't seem to figure out how it would work in real life. I'd love it if you'd help me with some more examples from your own....


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

"my children eat what they want, when they want. i encourage healthy choices but let them have the final say"

Yep, and we really only have healthy food choices most of the time anyway. but to be truthful, we do have breakfast, lunch and dinner, and I always make things the kids like, if they don't want to eat something, I don't force it- and when they are hungry for snacks they can have them.

"my children go to bed when they are tired. i do not set a bedtime, even tho i want conscious time to myself at night"

Yes, they do go to bed when they are tired, but I do not thnk that people who feel they need alone time with dh or something, and their kids are up too late for that to happen,(mine are asleep usually for an hour before dh and I go to bed) are wrong in gentling their child to sleep earlier, everyone's needs are important, not just the child, I agree with family centered and not child centered living.

"i don't punish/gently discipline my child. i view anti-social behavior as a symptom of an unmet need/frustration and attempt to meet the need and brainstorm w/my child other ways of getting her need met in the future"

I do gently discipline depending on the situation, but most of the time, they are either hungry, angry, lonely, or tired and I take that into account.

"i don't make my child say please, thank you or i'm sorry, but i talk alot about how helpful these words are in our social intercourse"

I do encourage them to say these things, but don't force it.

"if i cannot convince my children to brush their teeth through playful means, i try again at night, the next morning. i never force it"

Never had the problem, but probably would force it if necessary, just can't imagine that forcing would be necessary (maybe I just have agreeable children, or good tasting toothpaste







)

"i do not forcibly bathe my children, brush their hair or make them change their clothes, no matter how much i may cringe at their appearance."

Again, my children must be especially agreeable, b/c other than hair brushing this hasn't been a problem, my kids get a bath every night and they love love love it







As for the hair brushing, I have her do it now, and I bought children's conditioner for her hair to make brushing easier, I brush it in the bath, out of the bath and in the morning (or she does most of the time) and she's thrilled to be picking out what junk







to put in it, so it's not even a huge problem.

"if they do not want to go to the park/disneyland/grandma's house, and i can't convince them it's in their best interest we do not go. i don't buy tix to such outings without getting their okay"

Again, just can't imagine it(my kids love going out, esp. grandma's house), now leaving Grandma's house, that can be a problem, so we do all we can to make that go smoothly and try to talk about what fun things we'll do when we get home, like a bath or brushing teeth LOL(I must be really lucky







)

"ditto for running errands. i get a babysitter or dh to watch them if i don't think we can get through the errand without running into a conflict"

I try very hard not to take them on errands they don't want to go on, I try to do all that when dh is home to watch them. No babysitters though









"if my child wants a treat on an outing/errand, i don't say no "on principle". I may negotiate a less expensive treat if necessary"

I agree, although I usually say right at the beginning that they can pick something while we are there, wether it be a special drink or treat or book, etc.

"i don't force my child to go to routine dr or dentist visits. if roleplaying doesn't alleviate fears, we put off the appt."

Haven't had that problem with any well visits, only when they are really sick (cause they are tired, and sick







) but at those points they have to go, KWIM? OK, well some would say they don't have to go even when sick, but I think they do.

So, I hear you on most of it, although my first impression was that the list was too "child centered" and unrealistic with more than one child who is strong willed, as someone said, what would you do when one child wants to go to grandma's and another doesn't, and you can't split up the parenting, cause only one of you is there?

Also, the biggest thing I noticed is that I must be really really fortunate to have children who are up for anything, enjoy hygeine, etc. Here's to hoping this next one is just as fabulous


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

I think this thread is very interesting, from a "continuum concept" perspective. The example sunbaby gave about dinnertime struggles is a perfect example. For example, I can imagine that a child wants to know that the parent knows what they're doing and that by asking the child for input all the time, it could be very confusing to them. At the same time, I see the intense desire to not be authoritarian and to be fully respectful of their innate abilities to make sound choices.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

p.s., as I wrote in my original post, I completely agree with sylviamama that this is BY FAR the most fascinating thread I've come across at MDC. It gives a good meaning to "shock and awe" for me!! :LOL

Although I agree with what sylviamama and others have written in terms of permissive parenting vs. AP parenting, I think it's really interesting to read everyone's viewpoints and experiences.


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## MamaSoleil (Apr 24, 2002)

So, I've been thinking about the responses to my example that if Soleil was to wake up, after deciding not to eat her supper, and that I would say, that it was because she didn't eat that she was hungry yadda yadda.
I am a firm believer in natural consequences, but also, for certain ages. I would never expect a 2 yr old to learn this lesson, but Soleil, knowing what she knows now, then why not let her learn on her own. She is able to get up and get some food, I won't get up and make her something...If I make a mistake, I deal with the consequence. I want Soleil to be able to do so as well.
Again, everything is age appropriate, and I guess that's something each parent has to decide individually, each child is SO different.

Peace,

Mamasoleil


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## alexa07 (Mar 27, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by sunbaby_
*wanted to add: i was parented with the, 'well, if she really doesnt want to brush her teeth, i wont push it' approach, and i dont think it was very good for my sense of stability and safety- i think there is comfort in knowing that some things are not optional, also promotes self discipline later maybe- as in, sometimes we gotta do things that we dont want- i am also pretty weak in this area. not to mention that my hegien skills were developed much later than i woulda liked (as in, i wasnt very consistent about brushing my teeth until i was like 16). but then the argument about a kid owning thier body, not letting someone do something they dont want to it is compelling- geez. its so hard to know what to do.*

I think that there is a difference between "pushing it" and forcing. For example with tooth brushing, its a requirement in our house. Now that means that if you say "I don't want to" the answer is not "OK" The answer is "You really need to and I expect you to do it now."

But this is "pushing it" Not letting it just drop. But there is no "forcing" which would be physically shoving a tooth brush in my kids mouth. That I won't do. The ony things I would ever force would be medicine and this would only be after trying other methods. The only time I have ever had to do this is when a child is so sick or hurting that they aren't really rational or capable of making any decision at all.


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## sueami (Oct 11, 2002)

okay, i swore off posting on mdc b/c i found myself spending too much emotional energy but you guys have sucked me back in with a discussion that i'm very interested in!








when i first started exploring this whole idea (which i think is basically "taking children seriously" but perhaps not entirely) i had the same worries about self-discipline and routines and the specific conflicts arising that you mention, sylviamama. i'd like to explain what i've come up with so far in dealing with those issues.
first to sunbaby's questions about routines. i went through a time when i really worried that my daughter needed, in my particular case, a bedtime routine. i had the idea, quite prominent in our culture, that a routine for kids is important and comforting and i had vague ideas about it generating happy memories of her childhood. this was probably when she was between 2-3 yo. so i started trying to make one happen every night. a bath, teeth brushing, laying down to read a story in bed at 8:30 at night. and she seemed to like it the first night, and the second night. but then she wanted to stay up doing art with my husband the next. and then she didn't want a bath that night. and then she refused to brush her teeth.trying to insist on a routine began generating conflicts for us. and i was greatly relieved when i began searching through parenting and child development books and i came across someone saying that it was okay if kids didn't want a routine to drop it. i think it helped me drop the idea that she needed a routine when i realized that i didn't buy into the argument that babies needed routines and should be schedule fed and sleep-managed, so why was i buying into the argument that a toddler or older child did. so i dropped the whole effort. and now, at 4, she has a pretty stable bedtime and a shorter bedtime routine that evolved naturally over time. now, that was her. maybe there *are* kids who really thrive on routine. if you have a routine, and the kids follow it and enjoy it, then great! but if it creates conflict to stick to that routine, i guess for me it boils down to questioning my assumptions about what my kids really need, in the face of the feedback that i'm getting from them.
sylviamama, i have been thinking about y our post a lot and want to reply, but at the moment my kids need my attention. so i'll have to come back soon.
warmly,
susan


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by mamasoleil_
*
I am a firm believer in natural consequences, but also, for certain ages. I would never expect a 2 yr old to learn this lesson, but Soleil, knowing what she knows now, then why not let her learn on her own. She is able to get up and get some food, I won't get up and make her something...If I make a mistake, I deal with the consequence. I want Soleil to be able to do so as well.
*
If I was in that situation with a 4 yr old, I probably wouldn't end up making her something to eat either, because she can do it herself. Still, it seems like the dynamics would be very different. I would sleepily mutter something like, "Um, can you get yourself some cereal maybe, or else there are apples in the bowl...?" and she would most likely go and get herself some food. If she was really tired and hungry and I could see that she was on the edge, I'd rouse myself and do grab something for her, but generally the expectation in our family is that she is a competent person who can do many things and is a good judge of when she needs help, and I think that has deep results. The feeling I get from reading your posts on this is that you are trying to make her deal with the consequences of her choice by herself, whereas I prefer to have the expectation that she will handle things on her own to the degree she is capable of doing so, and f she asks for help she needs it.

Does that make sense? I guess I see it as an extension of the whole underlying belief in not pushing kids and waiting for them to do things when they're developmentally ready. Children reach a point where they want to handle their own lives...

Dar


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## sunbaby (Sep 30, 2002)

susan, that is so interesting- you started out feeling obliged to create a schedule, and had to drop it for your kiddo's wellbeing; i started out w/o sceduling ever having occurred to me, and ended up creating one because my dd does better. (now i KNOW our children are meant to make us grow







)

alexa, i agree, that is an important distinction between using force and cajoling- sometimes it seems that in a discussion like this it is easy to see things in extremes and forget about that middle ground.


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## MamaSoleil (Apr 24, 2002)

Quote:

The feeling I get from reading your posts on this is that you are trying to make her deal with the consequences of her choice by herself, whereas I prefer to have the expectation that she will handle things on her own to the degree she is capable of doing so, and f she asks for help she needs it.
Dar~
I hear what you are saying. Soleil is independent, always has been. If I feel she can do, then hey, go for it. She and I are deeply bonded, she *knows* she can ask me for help, always. She tells me readily when she's done something she felt she probably shouldn't have. I always react with, I'm proud that you felt able to tell me Soleil. And she smiles.
I still dress her, because it's something she loves me to do. I don't mind, soon enough she'll be into doing that herself, and I'll have to let go. But in other aspects, she likes to do things on her own. Breakfast for example, she likes to take care of.

Peace,

Mamasoleil


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I do know what it is like to have painfully rotted teeth. I have had six teeth pulled in the past 4 years because I could not stand the pain. I have been asked to leave the dentist's office in the middle of procedures because they could not deal with me "squirming" because I was in so much pain from my over-neglected teeth.

That said, I will never force my dd to brush her teeth. I will take her to the dentist (which my parents failed to do for me) and then REWARD, REWARD, REWARD!

With a little extra time and effort, one can find a gentle pediatric dentist with a great sense of humor, unending patience, and loads of really great drugs.


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## sueami (Oct 11, 2002)

okay, finally back with a little time to think straight. sorry it's taken me so long to reply, sylviamama.

in addition to routines, the other thing about this approach to parenting that has tugged at me is the question of self-discipline and how does it develop. i have yet to read what i consider to be an authoratative study on how people successfully aquire self-discipline and your post reminds me to do a little net surfing and see what i can find in the way of research at the university level. i'm very interested in knowing if internally generated discipline indeed occurs and if it is different in nature than discipline imposed from the outside. so, i don't have anything i can say with confidence on this point except that i keep a careful eye on both how my children are developing and how they are expected to develop socially (in my case through the gessell child development institute's series "your XX-year-old" and by watching their peers in playgroup and the like).

to your questions about how do you implement this in real life (the same questions i had when i first starting reading through the taking children seriously site, actually!) i can tell you how it's played out in our house.

"Almost everything I've learned in my early childhood education training (I'm a former infant/toddler and preschool teacher, and currently teaching in a children's room at a science museum) supports that young children NEED boundaries, limits, etc. They need to know that adults are in charge, will take care of them, etc. and that's why they test the limits that are placed. So if it's not a safety issue, but an issue of thinking of others, what do you do?"

my response to one situation like this has evolved over time and may well continue to, but if my dd is taking a toy away from her younger brother and he's too upset about it to calm down on his own IDEALLY i step in and say harry's very sad and mad right now b/c he wanted that toy and you took it away. i have to take him away now to nurse him and help him calm down so we can't play with you anymore right now. she usually comes in a minute later with a toy or that particular toy to make him feel better. (in reality, i do a lot worse job of it. i feel like i got hammered as a kid by my parents for what i am sure were normal sibling conflicts and my tendency is to greatly overreact with dd when she does anything that makes her brother cry. i've made alot of progress though.)
in terms of testing my boundaries, DD's been doing an increasing amount of this of late. examples are, getting wound up playing and jumping around and spitting on us repeatedly when we tell her it's gross and we want her to stop. in that case we get up and gently but firmly say that we aren't going to play anymore unless she stops. it works. she has also been picking flowers, lots of flowers from the gardens and bringing them to me to admire. i, personally, would almost never pick my flowers, i prefer them in the yard for the birds and insects to enjoy and b/c they last longer. this has generated quite a bit of resistance and conflict for me. my current thinking on this is that this is my chance to work with my need to be in control. i have big control issues and i've very consciously worked with my thoughts and reactions to her picking flowers. in my spiritual tradition, everyone and everything in your life is your teacher, showing you where you still resist reality. so, i guess i deal with this internally on a spiritual level. to her, i say different things, depending on how well i'm doing that day, spiritually







and on what flower we're talking about -- anything from, "that's beautiful, lets put it in a vase" to "we already have all our vases full honey, please don't pick any more" (doesn't stop her) to "i am *so* sad that you picked that flower. i really wanted the hummingbirds to come and eat from it. could you please not pick the other ones?" (she respected this request. probably because she could see that i really was sad, and not just frustrated and reacting out of our ongoing power struggle.) to saying hmmm and walking away b/c i know i want to be okay with this, but i'm not and i don't want to say anything hurtful. and on a bad day yelling "why do you keep picking my flowers! are you trying to make me mad? " to this she usually answers genuinely that she doesn't know.

"What if YOU are hungry for supper, but dd doesn't want to leave the playground to go home so you can cook it? Do you suffer with a grumbling tummy?"
i think ahead a bit and start talking about how i want to leave a good 20 minutes before the time i really want to go. i explain that i'm getting hungry and i want to leave soon. i do the 10 more minutes thing. sometimes we can leave then. othertimes i have to wait another five minutes. sometimes 5 more. finally, i'll say is there anything more you need to do here before we go home. i've never had a problem getting home if i'm willing to compromise 3 or 4 times. and when i'm on-the-ball i remember to say "i really want to go home now but i can tell it's important to you to play more, so i'm willing to be flexible and compromise here." (now when we have conflicting interests, she will tell us from time to time that she's willing to be flexible and compromise for us, at 4 1/2. i think that's fabulous, myself.)

"What if you've told your mom that you're coming to the family reunion, but ds would rather go to a friend's birthday party?" this situation hasn't happened for us yet, but i hope i wouldn't have rsvped for both the party and the reunion!







i guess we'd ask her to come to the reunion and say that it was important to us but if she really wanted to go to the party, we'd compromise and split up the parents with one going to the party with her and catching up with the other at the reunion.

"Does the tribe/family take a back seat to your child's wish to go to the rollerdome?" again, so far, dd's interests (the zoo, grandma's house, the park, the beach) are fine with us and we are usually happy to go on outings. if we stay home i just end up feeling like i should be cleaning or doing yard projects anyway! i don't know what i'll do if ds grows up to be interested in off-road bikes or something. learn how to like it, is the short answer, i guess! he's his own little being already and i want him to follow his interests.

"What if you have healthy food choices in the house, but dd chooses to eat only bread, pasta, and crackers?" i'm glad it's not jellybeans and cookies! i ask if she wants to round out her meal with other suggested foods. (with ds, who is pre verbal, i put them out on a low table.) if she says no, i let it go. i've read in a number of places that what matters is what kids eat over the course of several days to a week and that it generally balances out.

"What if ds is hungry for supper at 4:30, dd at 5:00, yourself at 6:00, and your spouse at 6:30? Do you never eat together? " so far, we don't. eventually we may. i'd like to think the kids will want to join dinner with us as they get older just b/c they'll enjoy the interaction with us. we'll see. right now, they're too young to be enjoyable dining companions for my husband and i (i really don't like having anyone in my lap while i'm eating.) and they tend to eat smaller snacks throughout the day anyway so they're not that interested in eating when we are.

"In addition to the ECC training, I've done lots of personal reading, gone to workshops, etc. on parenting and it seems that most folks/studies are in agreement that an authoritarian style (with increasing choices as children grow older/mature) turns out the most well-adjusted kids."
this could be true. i haven't read this in the gessell books. what i've picked up is that kids need boundaries. to me that's not the same as an authoritarian style. in either case, that's why i keep observing my kids and mentally revisiting this whole question of parenting styles. what does a mal-adjusted kid in the making look like? i probably spend more time than i need to asking that question, but so far i haven't felt like my kids are showing signs of disfunction. now i did worry for quite a while that dd was socially delayed by staying home with me much of her life. i was worried that at 4 she was still doing parallel play and not cooperative but now at 4 1/2 she's fully into cooperative play with close friends and often, but not always, with strangers at playgrounds. she's made enough progress that i feel comfortable she's just on her own growth curve. aside from that, i haven't seen any sign of below average development and lots of above average stuff.

i'm embarrassed by how much i've gone on and i don't know if any of it has any relevance to anyone other than me. this all works for me, for my husband, and for my kids so far. maybe all that matters in parenting is that you never withdraw your love from your children, which is much easier said than done for me, as i am only now beginning to understand the meaning of unconditional love. i do have to say that parenting this way generates a lot less conflict with my children and i value that, now that i'm (sometimes) able to stop believing the voice that tells me i must be in control regardless of how my children feel about it.
so, for what its worth...
warmly,
susan


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## sylviamama (Dec 30, 2002)

Thanks sueami for your reply! No problem that it's a long one - it helps to read so many practical examples.

I think that when I read the poll, I was seeing this philosophy too simply. I thought that kids of parents who follow that philosophy would be "in charge", not care about anyone else's needs, and never learn that there are some things that need to be done even if you don't really feel like it. Of course, it's not that simple or extreme. I see that verbalizing your thinking with your children helps them to mimic your behavior later when the opportunity arises - like being able to compromise because they learn that sometimes you compromise. That's similar to other ways of leading by example - i.e. your kids will learn to say "sorry", "please" and "thank you" if you say it to them.

I see parents at playgrounds say "we're leaving in 5 minutes", and then when a few minutes have passed, they say it again. I know young kids don't have a great concept of passing time, but I think that would surely confuse them more. Or parents say "it's time to go" and kids say no, and they get to stay. Yuck - disrespectful. Or parents say "2 more minutes" and then "2 minutes is up" and the kid says "2 more minutes" and the parent says "ok" and this goes on for 10 minutes. That's the picture I had in my head.

It's not an all or nothing philosophy. I guess no parenting philosophy is, but it's my first reaction. I guess it's ever-evolving, needs to be age-appropriate, kid-appropriate, and parent-appropriate. Like some kids can handle no boundaries on TV watching, and they'll get bored after 30 minutes and find something else to do, and for others, if there were no limits, they'd sit for hours on end. Like sunbaby's dd who needs a firm "this is what we're having for dinner" or else she can't decide, and doesn't eat anything, flips out, etc. Like sueami's dd who rejected a bedtime routine.

I still struggle with the "I know better" than you attitude I have. Maybe this is the same as your "control" issue sueami. I know I feel better when I'm in control. For example, 9 yo dsd just had an assignment where she had two weeks to read a book, write a report, and create a diorama representing the book. Well, as soon as she was done reading the book, she wanted to start on the diorama. I knew that she would get absorbed and spend lots of time on the diorama, and save the report until the "last minute" and not have enough time. So I made her a plan that allowed for 5-6 days for drafting, editing, and final copy and 2-3 days for the diorama. We talked about why it was important to do it this way, and she understood, but wasn't happy about it. I'm not sure that if she had been able to do it her way, she would have learned a lesson even if she got a low mark. It's the end of the school year, and it will be many months before she has a similar assignment. I guess, deep down, I don't trust that if I said "remember what happened last time" she would do anything differently. Maybe that's the real issue - one of not trusting the child to make wise decisions. That makes me feel yucky.

Last week, she was hungry, so she had some tortilla chips with chesse an hour before dinner (not unhealthy, but a carb and protein for a snack, and no veggies later at dinner makes me cringe) - didn't eat much at dinner of course. And of course we talked about that. The very next night she wanted some toast just before dinner and I reminded her that she filled up on a carb the night before and didn't eat dinner. She sulked and pouted, so it didn't seem like she had learned for herself, or made a better decision this time. I told her if she was really hungry, she could have something with vitamins - some strawberries, some baby carrots, etc. She shrugged, and said "I'm not hungry anymore". Well, that can't be the truth! Again, I don't trust that she would actually eat enough variety even over the course of a week or more. She ALWAYS chooses the carb.

I'm sure it will be different with dd because I'm starting out with her from the beginning, and she's in one house full time unlike dsd. I hope I can get all these feelings and thoughts sorted out soon. Or maybe I don't have to, we'll keep adjusting along the way. I just don't want to develop any bad habits of interacting with her (falling back on my upbringing - YIKES), or not think through very carefully the consequences of my actions on her feelings of self-worth and ability to make decisions, cope, etc.

I thought it was very interesting that a couple of posters mentioned being raised this way, and they felt a lack of stability and security - even a lack of caring on part of their parents. One poster mentioned daring her mother to say no to a movie - I thought it was sad that a teen would feel that she couldn't count on her parent to keep her "safe". What does this style of parenting do to a child's trust in his/her parent? Are there negative consequences to trusting your child so much?

What are the sites that you mentioned on "taking children seriously"? I'd love to go browsing....


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

: I'm not really sure how to vote on this poll, or how the results are calculated. I wouldn't say yes to any of the options, but if I just don't click on any of the boxes and then vote, it won't let me.

I don't see any of these as goals. Somebody raised the issue of whether or not you would have liked to be parented in a particular manner when you were a child. For some reason, that was kind of novel for me-- I don't normally spend a lot of time second guessing things I can't change, but it's an interesting idea.

No, I wouldn't want to have been parented with these kinds of ideals. I liked having some boundaries as a child. It made me feel secure.

I also have a BIL and SIL who would have answered yes to every one of these "ideals." They had four kids and honestly most everyone I know could not stand to be around them until their kids were grown. Chaos doesn't begin to describe it. The offspring themselves are barely civilized.


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

I also have a BIL and SIL who would have answered yes to every one of these "ideals." They had four kids and honestly most everyone I know could not stand to be around them until their kids were grown. Chaos doesn't begin to describe it. The offspring themselves are barely civilized.

I think that there is a wide range of how these questions can be interpreted. Some parents care very little for their children. I personally know some that never fed their kids, just expected them to eat whatever they wanted when they were hungry (and didn't prepare meals or help the kids at all). Naturally this is too much for a group of kids age 1-9 to handle and they ate nothing but peanut butter sandwiches for months on end. They could have answered yes to many of the questions on the poll, but not in the respectful spirit of the poll. They were just neglectful, which is a far cry from respecting your child's feelings and opinions.

There is a big difference between letting your kids do what they want, when they want and respected them when they choose not to do something. For instance, I am not just going to say "eat whatever you want" I am going to provide healthy meals and snacks and model good eating habits, but if my child chooses not to eat what we eat he can then decide to choose what he eats from a selection of healthy foods available to him. I don't just expect him to wander off to bed at whatever time of day or night, I take him to bed when he is tired (based on if and when he napped, what we did that day, how tired he is) regardless of what time it is. Dh says "its time for a bath" and goes to fill the tub, but if ds was to shriek NOOOO and cry we aren't going to force him into the water for the sake of clean hair, we'll wait until he is more agreeable.

I don't believe he is going to end up "uncivilized" or that he is lacking anything. He has a strong family with good values who will help him learn right from wrong by setting good examples for him to follow and respecting him regardless of his age and abilities. He has the security of knowing his parents are here for him whenever he needs us. Just because we don't impose certain things on him, and allow him to learn most things on his own (while providing an environment which allows him to learn in a safe and healthy manner) it doesn't mean he is just left to his own devices.

I hope I am being clear, I don't feel very 'wordy' today LOL.

Laurie


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## sparklemom (Dec 11, 2001)

Excellent distinction, Akirasmama.


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

I find this thread very interesting....
I try very hard to not push the food issue, and I don't make my kids say please and thank you... although I do expect to be asked for things polietly... please and thank you mean nothing if the tone is rude, I try to model it a lot!
But some of that stuff seemed a bit much for me. My kids need to brush their teeth once a day (bedtime...) and we have bed time, which is usually pretty lax, for the most part the kids are all asleep by 10pm. I do need "me" time. I am sorry, but if I don't get sometime for me, even an hour in the evening, I am no good to no one. My DD is learning this, she like to have a little alone time everyday, and I let her. It seems to me to be teaching selfishness, instead of selflessness, to never allow a little time to yourself. I think there is nothing wrong with kids knowing that Mom and Dad are people just like them, and need a little time to refuel, and find themselves.
As for visiting, if it isn't terribly important, we would put it off. BUT... sometimes you gotta do stuff you don't like, I try to make what ever it is some what enjoyable, but here is an example... DS#1 wants to visit his buddy, I like his mom a lot, and she ahs a little guy DS#2 can "play" with. ell there is really no one there for my DD. Do we not go because she isn't going to have the best time she ever had? Is that fair to her brothers? Is it fair to me? In a big family you occationally do stuff you don't find so great, because not everthing is going to be that way. I would let her pack a few books, or what ever, and she could chill with me and the other mom, or play with the boys. I would also do the same for her. And she knows it.
My kids must bathe and wash their hair once a week. Especially in the summer (usually 2 or 3 times a week.) I make it fun, lots of toys, and hair is done right off the bat. I haven't had a lot of trouble with this, luckly my kids love the water and don't mind a hair washing.
As I read the list thought that althought it would be nice to "do it all" I felt that it maybe gave the child/children the impression that their parents didn't really matter. And how do you teach a child that other people have feelings and needs if you never voice your own, or let your wants occationally be first?
And I do put my kids needs a head of mine alot. BUT, I am a person too. And if they have needs and wants (the kids) can't I have them too? I am or my DH suppose to have no needs or wants for 18 or more years? And what happens to children who never once have to consider another persons needs before their own? To me that is a disservice. How does it make them better, if they never know that occationally they might have to do something not fun (to them) to please someone else... IE DD going to DS's friends house?

Heather


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Heather, very well said, I agree with all you wrote especially how children need to learn about other people's needs too.


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Sueami
















Have you ever read the book Everyday Blessings? One could say it is about the "zen" of parenting, of being in the moment....I think it is just excellent. There are huge long threads about it such as this one:

http://216.92.20.151/discussions/sho...threadid=60713


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## hummingbear (Apr 17, 2003)

with some minor differences. We haven't really had much of a need for Dr appointments and he hasn't ever minded so I couldn't say about that one. You do have me thinking about the thank you and sorry thing. I have strongly encouraged him to say sorry. He once said sorry of his own accord when he saw how upset I was. I do not punish my ds but when he does one of the tfew things I think are absolutely not ok I remove him from the situation and talk with him about it. He doesn't always want to listen but I keep with him until some dialog has occurred.

Thanks for the call to awareness.

Ann


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Wow, what an interesting bunch of different answers. I suspect that some of the differences that people found have to do with age of children and other aspects of one's life. For example, my preschool age kid needs to be bathed, dressed, and had a good night's rest and such for school. If we didn't do preschool, I might have a different approach. For me, some of this is driven by outside realities.

I found that I liked some of the spirit of many of the responses, but the details didn't work for me -- so I could only check one or two (no forced teeth-brushing and no "no on principle" treats). For example, my child may chose what he eats (from the choices given), but needs to come to the table at dinner time, even if he just sits or eats two bites. So, not exactly when he choses because we eat as a family every night. (Of course, my infant gets fed whenever she's hungry, but that's a different thing entirely!)

I try to respect his individual needs and choices (including the need to make choices), but not all options are open to him, KWIM? For example, if visiting Grandma is because I need her to babysit, then its not an optional thing. I guess it goes back to my original point -- most of these choices would seem to be bounded by outside things (need to buy food, need to go to school, need to get healthcare).

For those of you who could check these boxes, how do you work around the outside influences?


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

I couldn't check any of the boxes either. But I'm betting that if we all could be flys on the wall of each of our homes, we'd find our parenting practices would look a lot alike, in spite of the opposing terminology we use.

I've learned that "authoritarian" parenting is a negative term. As is "permissive" parenting. Something in between might be called gentle discipline or positive discipline. (My bias: I just finished a 6 week course based on Jane Nelsen's "Positive Discipline".) She describes authoritarian parenting as strict, excessivly controlling. There is order without freedom, no choices, "You do it because I said so."

She describes permissive parenting as with no limits. Freedom without order, unlimited choices, and "You can do anything you want."

I'm striving to parent somewhere in between the two extremes, and create something much better. She describes positive discipline as firmness with dignity and respect, freedom with order, limited choices, "You can choose within limits that show respect for all."


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## sylviamama (Dec 30, 2002)

So, I've been thinking about all of you for the past few days because 2x/day dh holds dd (13 mo now) with her head between his hands. I hold her hands with one hand and pour Augmentin down her throat with the other. She has a urinary tract infection, and we'll be doing this for 10 days - no ifs, ands, or buts, period. She's got to take the medicine because UTI is not self-limiting, and she's been very itchy, uncomfortable and with a very bad diaper rash for 2 months before we finally hit on this as a possibility (after changing diapers, detergent, diaper cream, diet, anti-fungal ointment, etc.).

So I think of the toothbrush forced in the mouth comments and the thoughts on your child's control over his/her own body every time I'm gagging her with antibiotic......


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

If I were in that situation I would try to find a harmless way to flavor the medicine or I would just be sure to give immediate rewards after making her take it. There is no excuse for bad-tasting medicine - with the technology available today, people can make something taste like anything they want, yet they choose to make it taste like crap. I would also complain to the doctor. Or sometimes, medicine taken after certain foods doesn't taste quite as bad.

This reminds me of what I said about shots - we do vax, and we do hold her down and she doesn't like it, but after that we give her some kind of reward, and we use EMLA to make it more bearable.

I realize there are some things children have to do, but since these things are often painful or humiliating I think they should be heavily rewarded.

Also - even as an adult, I cannot take a medicine if it tastes bad. I always opt for the injection if the alternative is drinking a syrup. Or I put the syrup into capsules.


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

sylviamama
I feel so bad for you. When ds was 8 months he had a severe allergic reaction to penicillin and could not breath. We had to give him an inhaler through an aero-chamber several times a day or he couldn't breath at all (scary). He hated it and would struggle the whole time (can't say I blame him). It was horrible and we felt so guilty, but obviously we had no choice. Finally we figured out that if we did it while he was sleeping he wouldn't even notice, and by the time it woke him up he had breathed in enough of the inhaler. He still hates getting most medicines (although he loves vitamins), but if we give it to him when he is barely awake it is a lot easier. It is simply a matter of squirting the dropper into his mouth as quickly as possible. He has already swallowed before he realizes what we are doing. Good luck and I hope your dd feels better soon.

Laurie


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

You can take any liquid medicine to almost any pharmacy and ask them to add flavoring. We did this with a horrible tasting antibiotic ds was on this past December (I think Cefzil was the name). CVS even did it for free (and we didn't get the medicine there either). They had grape, orange, and cherry to choose from. (You can worry about the dyes and additives later! LOL)

It does make it go down a little better.


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

One thing I have noticed which is kinda funny and ironic, is oftentimes, when one ideal or value is emphasized too early or too much, often the opposite result occurs.

For example, babies who are pushed to be independent too early (not picked up when they cry, made to CIO, soothe with objects) often end up being the MOST clingy and the least indendent.

I was just remarking today, how it is funny that when our dd was a baby, we used to get told we were making her "too dependent" by holding her so much. Well, now she is 17 months and is VERY independent, and free spirited.

My dh was raised in a very strict, authoritarian family. They had a very strict, early bedtime. Had to eat certain things as meals, had to finish their plate, weren't allowed to eat many things.

Well, now, dh is somewhat undisciplined. He stays up VERY late, even if he has to get up early the next morning. He usually drags himself out of bed the next morning. He doesn't really eat regular meals, (except for dinner which I cook and we eat together). Actually, all of his brothers and sisters are like that as well. They don't have a ton of self-disipline, tend to procrastinate, stay up too late, and eat too unhealthy.

Whileas, my parents were much more lax about bedtime, meals, etc. I never had a bedtime. I just went to bed when I was tired. Ironically enough, except for oldest brother, the rest of us (5 children total) are all very "disciplined" and regular. We go to bed at a reasonable time for when we need to get up. We eat fairly regular meals and tend to eat fairly healthy foods. We aren't really procrastinators, and I always tend to get things done early. Now, we weren't allowed to just do whatever we want. There were rules, but they were pretty lax, and never an issue. I don't remember my parents ever really making an "issue" out of anything.


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

The only thing I have about the medicine is this...
If the phar. can flavor it... GREAT!
But if not,make sure first off it can be given with food, some can not, it decreases their effectivness. Then if you must give it with foodor drink make sure it is the smallest amount possible. Like maybe an ounce or two (at the most ) of juice with the medicine in it. This way you are sure they are getting all the medicine.
One thing my mom use to do way back in the 70's (LOL) was if it was a pill, (and it could be crushed, some are long acting and need to stay whole) crush it and put it in a bite of jelly. I always had tylenol and ASA that way, until I was old enough to swallow them.
And always finish the antiboitics!
Any way, just some nursey advice.

H


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## liz-hippymom (Jul 17, 2003)

im sure there will be much disagreement here but-
my opinion is strongest on the food topic. my background is years of daycare and nanny work and what ive seen is kids will choose to eat completely umbalanced meals, always. from the kids whose parents feed them mcdonalds to me and my only organic house- if the parents do not reugulate what children eat children will not get what they need. my own two kids would pick (if given the choice) peanut butter and honey sandwhiches EVERY meal if i let them. and allthough that is a healthy choice since its ww bread and organnic PB, that dosnt mean its healthy to eat every meal. i give my kids choices as far as snacks go and i never let them go hungrey, but just because my son has decided he want to eat the whole container of strawberries for snack instead of eating something else with some strawberries, dosnt mean he gets his way. and for main meals they have no choice. i spend ALOT of money on groceries(and we are on a tight budget in every other area) and my kids eat a million times better than everyother child ive personally know and i simply wot and cant afford for them to be picky. they either eat what is served or they need to wait until the next meal is served. american children are way too picky because they simply have to many choices and too much food. why do youthink most of america is fat. a HUNGRY child dosnt complain about th food they are given. it goes agaist every princible i have to endulage pickiness in m child and thier health is my concern to, so i make the descsions. sorry to sound harse, but my kids dont think im mean . actually my son (3) tells me now when he eats " did mother earth make this food? im thankful for this food" so i think he gets it now.


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## mamabean (May 1, 2002)

[But, my question for you that do parent this way, is how do you think such parenting prepares your child for interacting as part of a community?]

I have to wholeheartedly agree with this. I am a nanny for two children who's mom could check all of those boxes. I have observed on many occasions the children refuse(with their mom) to go somewhere, put their shoes on, etc. It turns into an issue. I by no means am iron fisted about it, I warn them "it's almost time to go" or something like that and then when it's time to go, they do it, becuase it's expected of them. These are two wonderful sweet kids who turn into MONSTER BRATS when mom is around. Life is full of things that we don't want to do, and learning to cope with that is part of growing up. And as far as manners, one has to expect excellence from their kids in order to get it. Pleases and thank yous are very important-I've waited tables enough years to know that(how nasty is it to have someone grunt their order at you?). Manners almost have to be(for lack of a better phrase)drilled into kid's minds as they're learning how to interact with the world. It's not natural-human nature-to be polite. It's a learned social behavior and who better to teach them than their parents?


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

What I want my dd to learn about living in a community is that the adults MUST respect the children if they want the children to respect them. How would we like it if our kids just walked up to us and said "It's time to go, come on." Not very respectful - which is why I try not to do it to them! I want dd to learn that she does not have to show respect to anyone who does not do the same for her.

Re the doctors office fear - my dd is afraid of being weighed and measured. She seems to fear this more at the WIC office than the doctor's, and I think what I will have to do is just not be on the WIC program until she is less fearful. It's not just the exam, she starts crying right when we get there. She hates that place. So I don't want to make her go.


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

Manners almost have to be(for lack of a better phrase)drilled into kid's minds as they're learning how to interact with the world. It's not natural-human nature-to be polite.
As far as manners and respect....the best way to learn is by example, not by having ideas "drilled into their minds". I treat my child the way I wish to be treated. He is a person in titled to the same respect I am. He is not a trouble maker, nor is he a monster because I don't force him to say please and thank you. In fact, at not quite 2.5 he already does say these things on occasion (as well as "bless you" when someone sneezes), not because I have ever told him he should (I have not) but because these things are said to him. He thinks it is a normal part of human language because we say these things to each other as well as to him. Children learn what is normal and accepted in their environment. If being polite and having good manners is common within the family a child will learn it on their own without being forced.


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## mamabean (May 1, 2002)

Modeling good behavior is a no-brainer. You model good behavior and EXPECT it back.

As a working single mom I go to work every day to support myself and my ds. Do I want to go? NO Do I anyway? YES-It's called life.

On a different note...

"So I think of the toothbrush forced in the mouth comments and the thoughts on your child's control over his/her own body every time I'm gagging her with antibiotic......"

Everytime you are gagging you kid with antibiotics, think of my ds, born with kidney failure, NICU for a month, 1st(there have been 3 so far) dialysis cathetor placed at ten months, commence of tube feeding via ng(that's nasogastric meaning that the tube is shoved-by me-up his nose jammed around the corner to go down his esophagus into his stomach)at 16 months, he's tube fed until he pukes and then tube fed some more, I've lost count of how many surgeries/ procedures/ hospitalizations he's had, he was transplanted with my kidney and it failed, he's gets weekly injections, weekly blood draws, he's had so many IVs all of his veins are collaspsed and it takes 5-6 sticks to start an IV, asthma, he went completey blind due to severe dehydration and has only regained some of his vision, was on as many as 13 daily meds at one time, has a home health nurse that invades our home every morning and he's 28 months.

Maybe an annotated version of this story for a child who thinks it's difficult to do normal everyday things like brush teeth/ hair would realize what real hardship is all about.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I think the forced drug issue is different if the drug is life-saving, or prevents serious illness or injury (though I do think the experience of taking the medication should be as pleasant as possible and heavily rewarded). I don't see why I should have the right to force my dd to take cough medicine or things that are more for convenience rather than medical necessity. And I don't think I have the right to brush her hair, either - fortunately, she likes it.


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

Modeling good behavior is a no-brainer. You model good behavior and EXPECT it back

Actually I model good behaviour because I believe in treating my ds with respect. I say thank you to him because I am THANKFUL for whatever it is he has done. I treat him with the same respect, kindness, and good manners as I would any other human being. Because I consistantly treat all people politely he learns that is how we speak to other people. He learns manners in the same way he learns that people wear clothes or use forks. It is a natural part of life which will be learned eventually, not something to be expected at an unrealistically young age (in our family anyway







).
Laurie


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## sueami (Oct 11, 2002)

hello all,
i've been catching up with this thread from time to time over the past month and thinking about your posts and these issues a great deal.
first off, i am so sorry to read about your son's illness, ((mamabean)). i can't imagine how i would cope with the parenting challenges you are facing. i hope you are able to find a bit of space to nurture yourself as well, since you are giving so much of yourself to your son.
and yes, momtwice, everyday blessings was one of my first parenting books, given to me by my psychologist, friend and fellow meditator. your post reminds me that i should reread it, if i can get it back from a mom's group friend who has borrowed it and fallen in love with it!
the only other thought i wanted to offer has come up to me as i've read the posts here, and its a reminder to myself as much as to anyone here. when i read any intensity (by this i mean varying degrees of stridency, often verging on anger, or an apparent inability to hear, acknowledge or process the responses given by those of us who parent this way) in people's reactions to these parenting ideas, it reminds me of what i have come to know about myself: whenever i feel any flavor of anger or fear, i know a reaction has been triggered within me (with the exception of real and imminent physical threat to myself or my loved ones, which is a rare experience for me.) it may be that i am reacting to unnoticed thoughts running through my head about being a bad mother or thoughts that other people are judging me, or i'm projecting how this behavior might lead to something worse in the future, or i may be reacting to old, old wounds i'm not even consciously aware of.
it's always a red flag to me to stop and objectively examine the situation and the thoughts that have been running through my head. it may be that the action i was about to take is the right one, but the intensity with which i am moved to take it is about my own reactivity. more often, though, i'm impelled to decisions and words i later regret.
i have come to these parenting choices through conscious parenting. there's absolutely no way i could parent like this without having learned how to be more aware of what is going on inside my own head. my automatic, unconscious parenting choices are much more autocratic, punitive and controlling.
to me, parenting consciously means making considered (and considerate) decisions and responses to my children in each moment, not blurting out angry, anxious or irritated words, yanking toys out of warring hands, forcing arching bodies into carseats or toothbrushes into wailing mouths -- and i have done almost all those things at one time or another simply because i have unnoticed and unquestioned thoughts running through my head that this is how i'm *supposed* to parent (the thought that gives me both the most amusement and the greatest empathy for myself, when i catch it, goes something like "it's my turn to win, dammit!" and i know that's the voice of 4-year-old susan, poor little dear, raging against myriad spiritual violations, literally violations of her spirit, her autonomy, her body (being forced to eat foods that revolted her, for example) ah, but that's my story. and it didn't make me a permissive parent. it made me a parent whose automatic reaction was to force my kids to endure the exact same humiliations, dammit, because it's my turn to win, as if that made any sense in the world. so i try to be gentle with myself when i hate how i've just parented, b/c i can feel the wounding it arises from in me.)
sometimes it *is* necessary to force medical treatment on our children and *for me*, conscious parenting in such instances would be to recognize my painful emotional reactions as i have to do this and to not withdraw into grim silence or get angry as a way of defending myself from that pain, to be as gentle and loving to my dear self and my dear child as i can in the midst of such a difficult circumstance.
so, i guess i just want to suggest to those of you who read this thread and read through this poll, if it gets your dander up, if it makes your heart race, your arms tense up, if your stomach feels unsettled, why is that? your quick answer may be that you're reacting to something horribly wrong, but in my ever deepening experience of myself, such emotions are a sign that i am reacting to my *thinking* that something is horribly wrong, and while it is possible that something is wrong, it is often my thinking that is off in these instances of high emotion.
so, anyway, just my thoughts that have been cooking for the last month or so...
warmly wishing you peace,
susan


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Susan

I have said before that I do agree with most of your "ideals" mentioned. I have also said that my children must be especially agreeable as I don't have problems with simple tasks such as hair brushing and baths, mealtimes, etc.. I have also agreed with others that children living in a family need to be respected just as adults are, and need to be taught that other people have needs too.( heck sometimes I have to remind my dh of that, and he has to remind me, I don't think being reminded that other's have needs, is disrespectful)

My question to you is how would that work were you to have more than one child(does this only work with *only* children?), or if you were ever to have a real *need* of your own which conflicted with one of your child's wants? Also, what is permissive parenting to you, as you pointed out that your style is not that? One more thing I have noticed, there are a rare few that have expressed pure outrage over this style, but many have simply agreed with most of it, and not with other parts. I don't think people are as negative about this as you are finding it to be, by that's just from my POV. Just because people disagree does not mean they are feeling angry about this issue, just that they disagree, KWIM?


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

What Patty said. Her post sums up both my parenting style and my first reaction to your post, Susan.

I don't feel angry about your parenting style, but I have several questions (some of which I've asked on this thread, and some of which other people have asked) which don't ever seem to have been answered by those who would tick every box.

I'm still wondering about them (Patty mentioned several of them).


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## sueami (Oct 11, 2002)

hi patty and carolyn, i'm glad you posted.
i didn't mean to sound like i thought everyone who disagreed with me was angry and reactive; i was mostly noticing and thinking about the occasional posts you mentioned. i think it's perfectly normal to say, hey, i've never considered this before, i don't see how it could work, i do it this way instead, i'm curious how it could possibly work for you. i was thinking of the posts that are more strident and unquestioning -- how could anyone possible parent like abc. kids absolutely need xyz instead and that's the way it is. period.
and like i said, i was mostly talking to myself. it helps me to think things out in writing and i post them here sometimes just in case someone is working through the same questions i am and might find it helpful.
i am really glad you asked me what i thought permissive parenting was, patty. i was immediately resistant when i first read it but now am excited to sit down and answer that question. speaking of being reactive and emotional (did i mention that i find that everything i write or say is really about myself in some deeper way?







), i find that i resist even thinking about the concept of permissive parenting out of defensiveness, i think, b/c i know that's how my parenting choices get labeled by others who disagree with them. and i know that behind every defensive reaction i have is at least a grain of truth, so i'm going to explore that further.
but i'm going to have to wait until i have a bit more time to post that.
i'll also try to give more examples of how this works with my two kids. i really wish some of the other tcs parents who once frequented this board were still around and could offer their perspective. i understand there were some with older kids who could talk about how it's played out for them in the longer range.
but i'm certainly happy to answer from my experience.
anyway, i'll try to post soon, but it may take me a while to untangle and explore my thoughts on this.
warmly,
susan


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Susan

I really didn't mean to say, "you are permissive" and label you or something, I just noticed that in a previous response you had seemed to look down on permissive parenting, and not feel that that described what you are doing. My thought is that this sounds like permissive parenting to a T, and I don't judge that some people have mindfully decided to parent this way







So, I really wasn't trying to get your dander up at all









So that maybe you can clear up this for us, since so far I haven't heard an answer as to how this works with more than one child, I'll offer a specific example and maybe you could tell me what you would do. Child #1 has a soccer game (he is 7 years old) Mommy is home with him and dd (age 4), it is time to go, children have been told what is coming, and suddenly, dd decides she does not want to go. She is adamant that she wants to stay home and play. What does one who parents this way do in this situation? (In this example lets also assume that dd does not want a babysitter, and there is no one available to take ds to soccer game)

I ask this b/c it seems to me that anytime the children's wants are not the same, someone is going to need to go with the flow, and not get their way.

FTR- My response would be to offer dd to take whatever toy she wanted with us, and that maybe we'd stop somewhere she wanted on the way home, or some other promise, but if that didn't work, she'd still have to go with us (yes, I bribe on occasion, when my kids can't have things the way they really want them







)

So, I'd like to hear your way. I really am curious about how this works IRL, and really have yet to hear any answers at to what happens when different family members have different wants at the same time.

thanks


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## sunbaby (Sep 30, 2002)

i beleive that no matter how parents may try to hide the feelings and motivations that cause them to make certain parenting choices, our children, without even realizing it themselves, pick up on it- are aware of and effected by the feelings behind our actions.

that is to say, for example, one mom can say 'we need to go to the store', and then end up waiting for an hour because her kid just cant stand to go right then, and it is ok with her because she has thought it through and realized she can compromise and wait a bit and feels that it is the most respectful thing to do, while another mom can do the exact same thing, but for different reasons, say maybe because she has a fear of confrontation and guilt or insecurity about being firm- i think their kids are going to be effected by this action differently, because the feelings motivating it were different.

so the key is not so much what you decide, as how you came to that decision. are you really observing yourself, thoughts and feelings? are you considering with an open mind how this will effect your kid, what messages you might be sending? i think if you stay in touch with what you know about how your own history has effected you, and take a moment to observe how you feel inside, and then try to step into your kid's shoes for a moment, and THEN make a concious decision, whatever that may be- your child will feel that thoughtfulness, groundedness, and sympathy, and that will inevitably benefit him or her.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Sunbaby, that makes sense to me, and I agree with what you are saying, at least in theory and in a hope that it works that way, as that's how I am doing things. I try to tell the kids why I am choosing to "give in" for lack of a better term. Like, "I realize you are enjoying this, and I know I wouldn't want to leave right now if I were having that much fun, and there is no good reason why we can't wait." This also allows me to tell them, "I realize you are enjoying this, and I know I wouldn't want to leave right now if I were having that much fun, but there is *insert reason here* good reason why we need to go now, I am sorry if that upsets you."

So, that's the answers I am still seeking from this. How does it work when someone else in the family acutally has a need other than said child? Undoubtedly, unless you homeschool, go to no organized outside activities that mean anything to your child, no one ever gets sick, etc. I could go on and on. I think every family has times where one person's need meets up against another's wants, and something has to "give". Is there anyone out there who can tackle that?


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

I feel like the subtlety of the original poll and posts is kind of getting lost.







to Jess7396 and others for getting back to the heart of the issues.

For example, in sueami's post, a lot of harsh, cruel, punishing words were used to describe others parenting styles, such as

* "blurting out *angry, anxious or irritated* words"
* "*yanking* toys out of *warring* hands"
* "*forcing* arching bodies into carseats or toothbrushes into *wailing* mouths"

Hang on a sec... when did we say that we were OK with outright abusing our kids?? I think the interesting issue was a lot subtler. Taking it to the point of yanking, yelling, warring, and forcing, is not really acknowledging the most interesting part of the discussion, namely wanting to fully honor every choice a child makes regardless of its consequences and letting them do almost everything they want vs. gently disciplining children when necessary and seeking to strike a balance between meeting their needs vs. meeting the needs of others in their family (e.g., going to gramma's house, going to church), respecting others (e.g., saying please, and I'm sorry, and trying to be quiet when older sibling is sick in bed), doing what is good for them (e.g., eating nutritious meals), and knowing that their desires don't always come first (e.g., need to go to grocery store, saying no to a toy or candy).

I think that was the fascinating part of this thread, not backtracking into black & white polarization of: no concern over kids' behavior vs. outright abusive tactics.

I am looking forward to reading more...


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

I have had some of these same questions swimming around in my head, since this thread was started. I am wondering, that if occationally you, as the parent, know better, only due to the fact that you have lived longer and have some experience with life, more than your child, how do you deal with things like "brushing teeth"? I mean it is a fact that if you never brush or see a dentist bad things are going to happen in your mouth. Do you never have them brush? or see a dentist?
And I am also wondering how this works with multiple children. I have 3 and we are planning more. Not everyone at everytime is on the same page. We do homeschool, and I am pretty flexible when it comes to peoples wants and needs, but there are 5 people in this family. And everyone of us has needs and wants. I can see this type of parenting be much easier to follow 100% if it is just one child that has wants and needs. But then again, what about your wants and needs?
I too have needs that I want met. I am wondering, do you forever put what you want or need on hold? I am thinking, and I am not trying to pick a fight or anything I swear, that if you never let your child see that sometimes other peoples needs will have to come first that they are truly getting a diservice. I mean everyday, you as an adult have to let something or someone go first. And everyday you also need a chance to go first.
I will be honest here, and say food has been a BIG issue with me on and off for years. As I was growing up my folks would set a timer and if you hadn't finished eating in the set time you were spanked and set to bed. I learned very quickly to eat REALLY fast. My little brother never did. About 3 times a week he was spanked after dinner, it was terrible. I promised myself as a child, that I would NEVER make food an issue in my house when I grew up. But you are right, as time went by I wanted to win damn it! I never hit my kids, but they would have to sit at that table until they ate xyz, and they couldn't get out of it. Now though, I have stopped. I did some soul searching, made sure I had loads of good stuff to eat in the house, and let my kids make their food choices (well for breakfast and lunch) I make one dinner and they are welcome to eat it or not, otherwise they get themselves something else to eat. BUT that being said we don't say YUCK at the table, especially if they haven't tried something. Because they need to also take my feelings, and others into consideration. (OK enough with that)
I am truly interested in how all this works with multiple children. And how do you let your child know that others needs are just as important as their own, if they have the "final" say in what ever is going to happen that day? The example of getting their thoughts on vacactions is great, and we do that, but what if after all is said and done, and the tickets are bought and everyone is reafy to go, to say Disneyland, your child doesn't want to go? Do you forgo the vacation? And what if the next day they want to go?
How do you deal with those situations? Especially with more than one kid?
Think the concept behind this style of parenting is very wonderful, and since I started reading this thread, I have tried to remember to think, how my kids are feeling all the time. I have tried to make sure that we get on the same page, from one day to the next, but somedays that just doesn't happen. And sometimes people have to give. Give and take, that is what it takes to run a family. Sometimes you rae the giver, other times you are the taker. But it all evens out. And I would say that most of the time, everyone is happy and feels they are getting what they want.
Can I give one more example? My DH is doing on-line school. He is just about done with Statistics. It is a REALLY hard class for him. He also works full time. He has had very little time to spend with us for the last 10 weeks. We (me and the kids) have had to kind of "do without" him. We have had to give him loads of time to do his studies, even thought it has meant that we have not gotten what we have wanted. BUT, in the end with his BS he will get a better job and this sacrifice now, will actually make things better for all of us in the future. BUT, we had to not get what we wanted right now, to have something better later. I guess this is my "issue" (if you want to call it that????) with this style of parenting (I guess that is what you call it???) That you are always putting the childs needs above everything else. And I don't think that that is teaching or modeling or showing them "real life". What I meanis, if you are being respectful of their wishes and feelings, and making sure to be open to their requests and whims, then they also need to learn to do the same for others. I mean what if you have to poop, and they want to go "RIGHT NOW!!!" (out to do something, not go to the bathroom). I mean you honestly have to say, you have to wait a few minutes mom has got to go to the bathroom. They will learn to deal with being told to wait and told, sometimes, "no". And I d believe that I do know better about somethings, only because I have the life experience. So my children do brush their teeth once a day. Some lessons I don't want them to learn the hard way... ie having a sore and messed up mouth. But for most other things I am open to letting them gather the life experiences.
So I know I was all over the place with this, I hope I made some kind of since.

H


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

namely wanting to fully honor every choice a child makes regardless of its consequences and letting them do almost everything they want vs. gently disciplining children when necessary and seeking to strike a balance between meeting their needs vs. meeting the needs of others in their family
It seems that we all perceive this poll a little differently and that is why so many have such different reactions to it. I don't think you necessarily honor every choice regardless of the consequences, but you honor the fact that it is THEIR body and they do have the right to say what happens to it (just as an example). That doesn't mean they do everything they want at the expense of others, life rarely operates in such black and white terms. Children can and will compromise if asked (of course not all the time, gotta be realistic) and often when needs are not compatible something can be worked out. If my 2.5 year old spirited child can learn to compromise while still being respected then I think it is possible







Certain things are not optional, if mama has to go to the bathroom before we leave then mama goes. That should be a common sense, respect for other's bodies thing. Its not like teeth will never get brushed and hair will be dirty forever, these phases come and go. Just because one method of attempting to get teeth doesn't work it doesn't mean you give up altogether. Perhaps you just wait a while and try later, or you come up with a game or something. If that doesn't work, or it becomes a battle then wait till tomorrow morning. It doesn't have to be all or nothing (again, what in life is all or nothing). I don't know that a child would just never, ever brush teeth if allowed to make the choice (if efforts were still made to show the child the benefit of teeth brushing). If you just never bothered, then maybe it would be a problem, but that is not how I would interperet the original poll.

What works in our family (so far anyway) is to treat our ds as we would like to be treated in whatever situation. If compromises have to made we feel it should be a compromise ALL members of the family can live with. We also make sure that we have set up an environment where it is easy to make the "right" choices. We only keep healthy foods around, we brush our teeth together and invite ds to join us, we give him choices, etc. We also make sure to model the behaviour we hope he will learn and treat each other as well as ds with respect and good manners.

Just more rambling thoughts on the manner....
Laurie


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Laurie,

That was a great response, I am glad someone finally addressed the fact that children parented this way still have to learn that others have needs. My only question remains with this statement/sentiment
"If compromises have to made we feel it should be a compromise ALL members of the family can live with. "

Sure, this is ideal and what I think we all would love to have happen all the time, and taken literally, this always happens, my children can "live" with a trip to the bank that they didn't want to go on, but they may not be happy about it, and they may be really upset about it, I may have to go anyway(not that this actually happens- my kids love the bank, all those paths to run through







). For instance with me, my kids do not enjoy my Dr.s appointments, I will *not* decide not to go (I'm talking monthly prenatals here), b/c my children don't want to go (I get the impression that some on here would cancel the appointments-not arguing wether routine OB visits are necessary, for me they are, so that is a non-issue, are they life and death?-no, but I do feel they are necessary) my response is to try everything I can think of to make it pleasant for them, bringing crayons, color wonder markers which they don't play with at home, special treats, etc. Most of the time they deal with it just fine, but I can honestly say I have easy kids (I think partly b/c they have been taught well that others have needs too), if I had a "spirited child" it would be a lot harder, but i would still be going to my Dr.s appointments.

OIY- I think there is a lot of different people misinterpreting different things, and people thinking of these ideals differently. My stance is still, from the poll itself, as well as things that have been written, that it would be hard (or would take many years) for a child to become empathetic and understanding of others needs, if others needs aren't considered as important as the child's. In my family, everyone has needs, and we are all treated well and respectfully, my children do not get any messages that their wants are MORE important than others needs, but they are still respected IMO, and more respected IMO than if I raised them with a false "you are more important than all others" ideal. Sure, I do more often put my kids needs before my own or dh's, but I will not put one child over another child.

OK, now I'm rambling.

Patty


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

Jumping in at the eleventh hour...but it took a long time to read!









This is not a black or white issue. When I first read the poll, I found the wording a bit off-putting. Skipping toothbrushing is not an option in my home, for health reasons, but this does not mean I force a toothbrush into dd's mouth, nor would I ever do so. That is abusive. Teaching her the reasons for proper oral hygiene and helping to make toothbrushing fun (a character toothbrush, flossers shaped like dinosaurs, etc.) works just fine. Nor do I "forcibly bathe" her. Bathing is expected, so it is done. She enjoys baths, and if she balked at them, I would work with her to figure out why and find a solution to the problem. There is a middle ground here!

I think that the wording of the poll suggests that children's needs and wants should come first at the expense of everyone else in the family, and if that was not what was intended, well...good. If I need to go to the market to pick up food for dinner and dd expresses as desire to stay home, I'm not going to stay home and serve cereal for dinner. But neither will I drag her kicking and screaming out of the house. I'll explain why we need to go, and offer an incentive, usually in the form of an activity ("Let's go now, get it done quickly, and then when we get home we'll play some games together." That's all it takes, really.

I can meet my child's needs and respect her wants without necessarily making our entire life revolve around those wants. I think that children need to learn how to effectively handle disappointment and frustration in order to function in the world. I can show my child that I understand her disappointment when we need to leave the park, but the reality is that we can't always do what she wants to do. I don't have to yell or threaten or punish or physically force anything to get her to understand this, though.

Because my daughter is treated respectfully, and because her feelings and opinions are treated as valid and taken into consideration, she is able to understand and respect the feelings and needs of others in her family. As a result, she is fairly cooperative most of the time. But if we repeatedly gave in to her wants at the cost of everything else, I think the opposite would be true.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Some people think that if children (or anyone) are allowed to do/eat/wear whatever they want all the time, disaster will result, but it's not necessarily true. Children don't want to eat junk food all the time, nor do they always want to do stuff that would hurt other people.

I do whatever I want to, almost all the time, and almost nothing I don't want to do. So does dh. So does dd. The dishes always get done and dinner always gets made. I have yet to see how this is hurting us.

I think in a two-parent family there is no excuse for us to bring dd to one of our appointments if she does not want to do. I schedule my appointments around times when dh can stay home with dd. I schedule things around her naptimes, and if she decides to take a spontaneous nap right when I was about to go, I do my best to rearrange my plans. (Again, this is just for my family, it may not work for everyone else.) I sure wouldn't like it if I always had to go somewhere I didn't want to go that had nothing to do with me.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

OT- I just wanted to address that some 2 parent families have one parent who works hours that Dr.s are open to patients (like mine).

Also, my husband is a paramedic (and a former firefighter), so if he gets a call to go save a life, sometimes the kids get disappointed, and I think since it's not to a point of neglect, that that is good. I talk to them as he runs out about how daddy has to go help someone who is very hurt right now, and it teaches them that there are people out there, that they don't know, will never meet, who are hurting and that their daddy can help that person. As a matter of fact a few weeks ago, we came upon an accident, and dh had to get out and help the victims, while the kids and I waited in the car, Mary couldn't understand why we couldn't get to Grammy's house NOW. When we pulled away (after the ambulance came) she saw the accident, a car under a truck, nothing gruesome was visable, but then she understood. I think it's a good lesson for kids to realize others have needs, I know that's an extreme example that no one here would disagree with, but even in more minor ways, I need my kids to understand others have needs.

I have no problem with unmatched clothes (although dirty underpants and such are not an option), and messy hair, my issue all along has been with the "if they do not want to go to the park/disneyland/grandma's house, and i can't convince them it's in their best interest we do not go. i don't buy tix to such outings without getting their okay", I don't see how that works with more than one child, unless everybody doesn't want to go







:

I'm sorry to be a pain about this, but I don't feel like anyone has addressed THAT issue to my understanding.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Well, I'll try, but I do only have one child.

I'd say that if I had a bunch of kids and we had planned to do something together (I wouldn't make the plan unless I had everyone's agreement) and then one of them changed her mind and everyone else still wanted to go, I'd say that it wouldn't be fair to everyone else to not go, but I would try to make it as pleasant as possible for the one child. And then tell her that the next day, we can do something special that she really wants to do.

Or if it was somewhere like grandma's house, I could leave the kids who wanted to be there at the house and take the other one out for ice cream or something before going back there.








T
Since becoming mobile, my dd hasn't been able to go to the doctor with me. She walks around and gets into stuff and pulls things down. It's hard enough when dh and I take her to the ped to keep her from really messing things up. I can't expect my doctor to babysit dd while examining me.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Grease

I'll just carry on conversing with you if you don't mind







since you seem to be trying to help me understand. Did you see my "one child has a soccer game" example back a ways in the thread? this is the kind of thing, where you don't get everyone's agreement ahead of time, KWIM? Sure trips to the park, etc. which are meant to be fun for all the kids, I can see that you'd get everyone's agreement before planning that, but what about organized activities that mean something to a child? When I was little I remember going to my brother's tennis matches. I didn't enjoy them, my mom tried to make it enjoyable, and I never remember feelign like she loved him more, or didn't respect me b/c she made me go, I knew she had no option, other than to tell my brother he couldn't go to his match, which I knew wouldn't be fair.

OT again- the dr.s office, my 3 year old will sit in the chair and color, but my almost 2 year old has to be on my lap, or on my chest when I lay down, it's not easy, but it keeps him happy, and luckily I don't care if a Dr. minds







, although they never seem to.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

When I was a kid my brother played soccer and I did 4-H dog shows, and we each hated going to the other's events. My mom would do things to make it as pleasant as possible for the one who did not want to be there, such as by putting together an "activity kit" of books and games and toys for the unhappy kid. So at the soccer games the rule was that I had to go, but I didn't have to watch. I could play with the activity kit. Then when I was old enough to stay home alone, I had the option of just not going. This included family vacations as well; I would just stay home if it did not interest me as soon as I was old enough.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

See, now that makes perfect sense to me


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## sueami (Oct 11, 2002)

okay, sorry it's taken me so long to get back to this. i had to finish off a freelance writing assignment then, i must confess, i indulged in the new harry potter book. then i lurked on the HP thread in the books forum. made me realize how *serious* i am online these days. must lighten up, as twinmommy was perhaps alluding to. so, after wrapping up this, i'll probably wander over to the harry potter thread and offer my theories on a much lighter subject!

so, first off, i feel like a dolt for not having checked the GD archives sooner! it is filled with nothing but pages and pages of TCS (taking children seriously) discussion! so, i'm working my way slowly through that as well. silly me to think that just b/c the moms are gone, that their conversations don't linger on in cyberspace! fascinating stuff and in the face of their obvious understanding of this philosophy, i feel like i'm not qualified to be trying to explain it here myself, as i haven't delved into the tcs site and truly immersed myself in this philosophy.

that said, i'm sorry now that i didn't put more thought into the poll questions, b/c i can see that they're confusing to some of you in this discussion. in fact, when i posted this poll, i wasn't thinking about explaining this whole school of parenting to anyone who wasn't familiar with it, i was just trying to find out if there were likeminded parents out there who practiced this (and i knew there would be-- hi greaseball, akirasmama and you others







) so, i was probably overstating how it goes in our house, just to be clear that i was looking for people who are parenting outside the norm.

For me, this type of parenting is not child led in the way that some of you seem to think. it is one in which children's needs *and wants* get equal weight with the parents. (AP was easy, we could all agree babies *needed* what we so selflessly gave them. we have a much more ambivalent relationship with *wants* both our own and our children. i'm so intrigued by what i'm reading on the archived tcs thread that it's great to want and to get what we want! what a novel concept for me!) how that plays out is obviously the mystery here (was for me at least, when i first came across this) so i understand your requests for more examples (just not sure if you missed a long post a while back from me answering someone w/ examples. maybe they weren't the right ex.s for you)

to briefly respond to twinmommy, i think i wrote that description of parenting so strongly and baldly b/c that is how i parent when i am believing the thought (and it does creep back in for me, over and over) that i'm the parent and i should be in charge and i'm getting the resistance that we get from our children. i get harsh and try to force my will on them. and afterwards it feels awful, it feels to me just how i've described it there. so, yet again, what i say/write is always about me! hope you didn't take it too personally...

what is permissive parenting to me? i have to say what a great question that was to explore! talked about it some with dh last night too. i figured out much of my resistance to it and don't want to bore you with too much self-involved blather but in brief, i realized that how i am conditioned to parent by my own upbringing, if followed unexamined, is what's called a minimizer style by Hendrix and Hunt (really got alot out of their parenting book, giving the love that heals) which means, underinvolved, emotionally disconnected, and that's the kernel of truth i can find in my reactivity to permissive parenting. i go there (and then overreact with authoritarian decrees when i notice/feel guilty about it) when i'm not being very aware of myself.

that said, i think the concept of permissive parenting misses the mark for me in terms of describing bad/unhelpful/unconscious parenting style. for one, inherent in it is the very clear assumption "if left without limits/boundaries/rules, children will grow up rotten." i'm obviously not convinced that's true.
we could just as easily believe in our culture that left to explore their world and it's reactions to them children grow up with a clear understanding of how their actions affect others and a natural wisdom of how to relate to others. i think kids absolutely need to be guided, by our own examples and our gentle words, mostly (this, haha, as my dd is melting down b/c she won't share a pile of pennies with her brother! so,i have to go figure out how to respond to that)
sorry, i'll have to return to this later...
susan


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## sueami (Oct 11, 2002)

ohhh-kay, so, that was an example of unconscious parenting on my part. i think it may be relevant to this discussion, so i'll explain what just happened. i thought i had a sibling conflict to mediate just now but it was in fact something i created with my automatic behavior.
i was typing when 20 mo old ds woke. i took him downstairs where dh and 4 1/2 yo dd were reading a book and he climbed on dh's lap. on my way back upstairs to finish the post, i saw dd's coin bank filled with pennies from dh's collection and put it on the floor for ds to play with, thinking vaguely that this might help keep the peace and buy me time on the computer. well, dd immediately wailed no, that's mine. disgruntled that she was making more work for me, i marched upstairs to get a second coin bank, brought it down, dumped some of the pennies out of her bank and put ds on the floor to put the coins into the second bank. she continued to wail that those were hers and dh and i both jumped in with, no the pennies are daddy's, he's letting you play with them and you need to share them with your brother. (have i mentioned that i don't feel qualified to try and explain tcs to anyone else when i so clearly can't enact it at home sometimes?) dh takes ds and leaves the room, i go upstairs to send the post off before i lose it and to try and think through my response to this, b/c my *reaction* to it is to get really angry with her and to want to take the coins away from her to teach her a lesson on sharing.








i came back down to find her emptying all the pennies out of the second bank and putting them back into her bank (which further inflamed the reactive parent within me). i tried to talk her through what i imagined was going on with her (you feel like those are your pennies and you don't want to share them with harry? is that true?) and she bitterly refusing to answer me or listen to me but also did not want me to walk away, which is what i wanted to do in frustration. finally, i sat still and watched as she took the second bank and began filling it with the pennies she'd just taken out of it.
and that's where i realized what i had done wrong and how i had misread the situation. i had, without asking her or even thinking about it myself, grabbed her bank and taken pennies out of it (b/c i was only thinking about the pennies, which were communal property). it wasn't that she didn't want to share with her brother, she just didn't want to have it forced upon her without her permission and without any respect for her property (the first coin bank). so, when i realized that i apologized to her and explained what i now thought had gone wrong and that next time i would try to remember to ask her permission and she listened to it without comment, then went off to give her brother a coin bank to play with.
now, i am sure there are parents out there who think i should have disciplined her at several different points in this -- for not sharing, for being disrespectful -- but i feel like she and perhaps even more importantly, i learned an important lesson about respecting other people through how it finally played out.
back to permissive parenting,

i think unhelpful parenting that gets labeled as permissive occurs when parents set rules, say they will enforce them, then give up when their children press for the rules to change. much of the time, when i see this happening, i think the rules the parents have set in the first place are arbitrary and unnecessary and the reason the parents finally give up is that they can't really find the justification within them to uphold them under the pressure from the kids. other times, i think some parents give in b/c they have been conditioned as a child to do so to make others happy and they are too uncomfortable with their children's complaints.
i think this may be immensely confusing to children but the vast majority of the time i think the problem lies in the rule trying to be enforced; i can almost always find that for me, it doesn't need to be there in the first place. others will disagree.

a more disturbing parenting flaw for me is the underinvolved parent, who may be labeled as permissive too. the one who just can't stay/get emotionally connected with their child, who makes them entertain themselves, which turns into letting them roam the neighborhood by themselves looking for someone to connect with, who doesn't give them the feedback and guidance that they need b/c they can't muster the energy or they're too busy with their life apart from being a parent. i don't know if that type of parenting falls under anyone's definition of permissive parenting or not, but it worries me far more than the inconsistent parent described above.
i need to get back to my family,
i'll try to return with some more specific examples of how this works later; i'm so glad to see what others have offered from their own parenting experiences.
warmly,
susan

edited to clarify that i feel like *i* was the one who needed to learn a lesson from this morning conflict, not dd. she may well learn something, but i was the one who needed to learn about respecting other's property and asking permission first.


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## April 2007 (Oct 1, 2002)

I agree with most of the options for the poll. I don't like forcing children to do anything they don't want to do, unless it is serious emergency.

Noah is just under a year still, so a lot of it doesn't apply to us personally, but I just CAN'T STAND hearing other parents talking to their children like they are little imbisciles. Some big things that annoy me are times when the child feels hot, but the adult is cold (or the other way around) so they say things like, "no you're not hot, it's freezing out there! Go put a jacket on." Or "WHat are you talking about you're cold? ou don't need a jacket it's 80 degrees in here!" etc, etc., etc.

Or like when parents practically force feed their children. What, do they think their child will actually starve if they don't eat dinner exactly at 6:00 with everyone else, or if they don't eat the exact amount that so and so put on the plate for them? If the child is hungry, he/she will eat before they starve, I guarantee that!

Anyway, I think I'm done ranting about that for now, lol

There was one thing on the list that stuck out to me as being contradictory to the other things. the thing about if your child doesn't want to go to grandma's or disney, etc., you won't force them, you just won't go. Is this referring to the child not going, or everyone not going? It would go along with the rest of the original post if it meant just the child, but if it means everyone else doesn't go, then I do not agree with that point, nor do I agree that it is part of the "attachment parenting lifestyle."

One thing I see wuite a lot of with moms who have similar (ap or cc) parenting interests is that many of them make such an emphasis on the child's feelings and what he/she wants/doesn't want to do, and not forcing them to do anything they don't want to do, that in turn, the parent(s) ends up doing opposite of what they want their children to do. I believe we have to lead by example, and if the only thing you show your child is that you have to bend over backwards every time Janey doesn't want to go to see aunt milley, then I think all your teaching them is that it's good to let people walk all over you.

Anyway, I won't go into it any deeper because I'm pretty sure it was meant to imply that the child would stay home but everyone else could go to the park/grandma's house, etc.

just my 2 cents for now


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Sueami

Thanks for posting, I understand that you were simply posting looking for like-minded parents, I think you found more than you realize, as many of us, are off-put by the questions I am, like how do children learn about other's needs, the only clarification I have gotten, is that I may have misunderstood, that no one here (maybe?) is implying that one child's needs come before other people in the family.

The idea that eveyone will be happy all the time if everyone is respected might be pie in the sky and it might too be optimistic people, like someone mentioned that it is working fine in their house, no one is doing things they don't want to and everything still gets done. I do believe that can work for families where someone enjoys doing the dishes







I am serious about that. I do not enjoy doing the dishes and neither does my dh, no we don't hate it, and I tell myself often that I should be thankful for dirty dishes as it shows we are eating. But, alas, dh and I split the duty that we both really dislike, for the good of our family. Oh, I also don't really love cleaning the toilet, I don't even remotely like it, but I do it. So, in our house, we do things that we don't enjoy for the betterment of the family, and I hope that by seeing dh and I do things that we don't love, for the family, our kids will grow up and have homes where they do the dishes and clean the toilets







, wishful thinking? maybe. Anywho, I am just saying maybe were just not positive enough people, that we don't like to do those things, maybe in some families, all things are happy things. Sorry, I just had to address the idea that anyone can (I understand some could) live life doing only things that they enjoy, or don't mind doing, etc.

Now, I think I understand where you are coming from on permissive parenting, you don't like how the term is perceived, or societies determination to call parents that who are uncaring. I am assuming that you don't disagree with the actual term, but more the connotations of it?

I have said before, I agree with everything on the post except the idea that children who do not want to go somewhere will not have to go, I mean, sure if there is no good reason to go, and no other person in the family really wants to go, or someone is willing to stay home to care for them, or they are old enough to be home alone, etc. then ok, but I can't see how that works (and I've yet to hear that it does) with multiple children all the time, an ideal? Yes. A constant reality? Probably not.

So, I think my questions have been answered and I can agree with most of it







But, I have said before, I have really easy and agreeable children so far, and we rarely have any problems with anything listed above, certainly not daily, or even weekly, and there always seems to be a way to help my children through things that they might not at first be thrilled about, although that may not be TCS, to try to convince them even.

Thanks though for trying to answer my questions.

Patty


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## larsy (Nov 28, 2001)

bump


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

I wasn't sure whether or not to check the eating one, because while I do allow her to eat (or not eat) any food in the house she chooses (and at any time she chooses -- we don't have regulated meal times), I also make sure that only healthy food is available. If she was with me in a store and asked me to buy an unhealthy food, I would refuse.


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## Alegria (Jul 21, 2002)

Larsy, wow, I looked for your name a couple of months ago when I was going through the tcs archives. And was sad to see that you weren't around anymore. You don't know me but I hope you will be posting. I loved to read your posts. You always responded to people respectfully even when they were hostile.


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## larsy (Nov 28, 2001)

thanks, Alegria, I don't feel welcome to post on these boards since my point of view was banned. I found this thread on the second time I had come back here (after banning) to see if the archives were still available- seems like a step in the right direction!









You'll find me on Sage Parenting at ezboards http://pub3.ezboard.com/bsageparenting, as larsy, and on the TCS blog and discussion boards at http://www.takingchildrenseriously.com (under different names) and TCS lists as Sue (and no, I am not SueAmi here, masquerading... she's a real live other person, and I've been heartened to read this thread she started)

very best wishes!
larsy


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## Alegria (Jul 21, 2002)




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## sueami (Oct 11, 2002)

wow, i can't say how delighted i was to see larsy post here too. i began to read through the tcs archives here, also, and loved your posts (i did not get too far into the threads however. i really would rather not wade through the reactivity between various posters to get to the meat of the discussion, as even just reading it tends to set my own emotional reactivity off).
but i'm delighted to know there are boards where this can be discussed without such rancor. i'm going to check out those sites as well!
(and thanks, allegria, for bringing my attn back to this thread!)
warmly,
susan

edited to add that the first link in larsy's post above is thrown off because there's a comma at the end of the hyperlink. you can get to the site if you type in the address without comma...


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## Rolo (Sep 14, 2003)

I have not read any of the replies yet, I am going to answer as honestly as I can.

I have to say that I do not agree with any one of those statements. I did not tick any boxes.

My children eat at set times. They eat around the table with me and my husband., We encourage manners and basic social behaviour at our dinner table. We use dinner time to talk to each other, to catch up on the day and to discuss any problems we may have. Dinner time is an important time in our house, therefore my children eat then!

My children DO go to bed when they are tired. Bed time is set around about the time of night when I know they get sleepy. It is set so that they get enough sleep a night, so they are not tired the next day. Children need to rest. Bedtime may vary, but it is roughly the same time.

If my children do something wrong they are punished. This is not physically punished. We reason with them, take away treats e.g television, send them for time out. They need to know the boundries.

I DO make my children say please and thankyou. It is basic manners and I have tought it from a very young age. My children are polite and I have been complimented many a time on this.

I do not need to convince my children to brush their teeth. It has been a 'fun' activity since they were very small, and if they do not want to do it, they know that they HAVE to. It is basic health and hygene, if they do not they will have bad teeth.

I DO make sure my children bathe. They have to have a bath at least every other night. my daughters have to have their hair brushed everyday. This is basic health and hygene again.

I dont consult my children before I book a holiday, I will ask them if they want to go to the park, but I can bet you the answer is always yes. If I book a holiday to disney land, and my kids dont feel like it, they go anyway. I will not book an expensice trip to cancel it when they will enjoy it anyway.

My children have been brougth up to behave when we go out running erronds. But there are times when they wont. Just today my son cried all the was round the store. So I got what I needed as quickly as possible, and came home.

My child has to ear a big treat. They get treats for things they do everyday. But for a big treat they have to have done something good. If they havent then they have to start behaving before they recieve it.

If my child is truely scared of the dentist/doctors then we talk about it, but they have to go in the end so I will not keep putting it off.

You may think I sound Harsh. But it isnt like that at all. My children are extremely happy and loved. Our house is a relaxed house because we have simple rules for everyone to follow.

I am not saying I am the worlds best mother, because I sure have alot to learn yet, But I do not think I am doing to badly.

Alex


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## PurplePixiePooh (Aug 5, 2003)

I only chose two of the options - sleep habits and discipline.

As far as bathing, tooth brushing and clothing well that is hygene. It is not up for debate or a child's choosing. I am instilling good hygene practices into my dd now so that once she is grown up they will be a habit and once she is old enough to really understand the why's of doing such things then she can decide about it.

Teeth get brushed morning and night, bathing is done daily unless she is ill. Hair is "brushed" (dd is really curly so she it 'picked') whenever necessary in the am after toothbrushing and face washing at least.
I do not allow dd to decide what she will eat. I do give choices like "Would you like a pb&j ana applesauce or noodles?" and if she is not hungry I do not force it, but if she says she wants ice cream for dinner, um no, that is not going to happen.

I see these things as health issues and as the adult I need to be th eone to make these choices for my children untill they are old enough to make an intelligent choice based on learning rather than just feeling like a bath would be less fun than play-doh.


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## pepsi (Sep 14, 2003)

I also couldn't tick any of those boxes.

We have set times to eat,I have three children and I need a routine to make the day run smoothly.If they are hungry they can have a snack but as for main meals they eat at set times.I give them choices between two meals,I only offer them food I know they like so it isn't like Im making them eat something they dont want.

As for bedtime they have a set bedtime too,children need lots of sleep.Also the evenings is when I relax,someone posted that she wouldn't have had children if she wanted "me" time well as a parent I am still entitled to time on my own.
I don't mind if they play but for the oldest he is in bed by 8.pm,there are exceptions made if we have company round Ect.

children NEED rules,I think it places far to much on a childs shoulders to have all the responsibilty.

Im all for giving children choices but as parents we need to set bounderies and rules.I really believe that any child should not have that much responsibiltly when they can not understand the full impact of their actions.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I checked nearly all the boxes and my child receives compliments as well. The difference is, SHE gets them - not me. And that's the way I want it! Why should I get the credit when she's the one who chooses to act a certain way?


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## Alegria (Jul 21, 2002)

I struggle to be able to say yes to a lot of these options. This is obviously not the easiest way to parent. It requires a lot of inner work and patience, dealing with my own issues from my childhood. It would be a lot easier to follow a more traditional parenting style but to respect my child as a capable individual and not make arbitrary decisions, I have to try not to parent on autopilot. I my goal is to work towards better parenting by being in the moment every day.


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## irishgreengables (May 25, 2002)

So many attachment parents are extremely anti-television, for example, and make huge efforts to keep their children from watching television, even once they are at a point where they feel different and uncomfortable because they are not familiar with some of the things their classmates are familiar with. It seems to me that denying their child television at that point is actually detachment parenting. It is denying the child's true feelings for the parent's own ideals.

I haven't read through all the responses so I do not know what others have said, but I have thought about this ALL week. Here are my thoughts:

TV is neither a need nor a right. It is not natural in any way and it IS damaging. It separates children from each other, their families, and reality. My children spent their first 22 months and 3.4 years in an orphanage in a country where NO ONE has TV. Just because we in American have TV does not mean that we NEED TV or that it is something our children SHOULD have.

When you say it is denying a child's true feelings for the parent's ideals, I am wondering why this is bad? Are you thinking that if a parent does not think it is ok for a 10 year old to have sex (it happens nowadays), but the child does, then it should be up to the child? If your 8 year old came to you and said, "I am going to start taking crack", would you allow it in an effort to not impose your values onto your child? Don't you think there need to be some limits?

Yes, it is my value that TV is not healthy for children. However, it has also been proven time and time again. AND, I get to make the judgements on which values I think it is important for my children to have while they are not yet developmentally able to do that. Believe me, I am pretty open. However, I just cannot believe that limiting/forbidding TV is something anyone would criticize as being non-AP.

I should also add that all that time NOT spent watching TV is spent cuddling, reading together, playing outdoors etc. I think is some pretty AP stuff.

Sorry to sound snippy. I am just in shock.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

If my 10-year-old wanted to have sex and my 8-year-old wanted to smoke crack, I would not allow it, but I would also have to admit to myself that I have failed as a parent.

Normal 10-year-old do not want to have sex, and normal people of any age do not smoke crack. Something has to be very wrong with their lives, and if it's kids that young, whatever went wrong was probably started in the home.

If I don't want these things to happen, it's my responsibility to not give my kids a horrible life. My 21-month-old does watch cartoons. I know she doesn't "need" to, but she likes to, and that's reason enough for me!

Adults don't need to watch TV either.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Ten year olds raised with freedom and love generally don't chose to have sex or smoke crack - why would they?

And it's not really about responsibility, pepsi, but about freedom. Rain can chose to shoulder certain responsibilties or not - if she wants me to cook for her, I will, but often she'd rather cook for herself, or for both of us. A child living in freedom will chose to shoulder responsibility, when she's ready.

Dar


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## Rolo (Sep 14, 2003)

Children who are raised with love and freedom do not choose to have sex and take drugs?

I think that there is a point here that you are forgetting, children are vulnerable to peerpressure. No matter how a child is raised, peer pressure is still a big part of growing up, and it can be very powerful in decisions children make. A parent can be the best parent in the world, they can give their child choices, and advice. What happens when the child chooses not to take that advice? Do you just let them 'choose' exactly what they want to do even if it is wrong? Or do you start seting stricter boundries, do you have rules, purely to keep your child safe?

So when you say it is about freedom, and not responsibility, does that freedom include drugs and sex that happens through PEER PREASURE? Something that none of us as parents can control? I think that we as adults, and more importantly parents, have a duty to be responsible for our children.

Alex


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Because I was raised to respect myself, I was never influenced by peer pressure. If a friend suggested that I make a bad choice, it didn't have the least affect on me. My parents didn't choose for me, and my friends didn't choose for me. My mother's attitude toward smoking was "Want to try a cigarette? Go right ahead." I looked at her like she was nuts. Why would I want to do anything so stupid? If she had laid down the law about not smoking, I might have been tempted to rebel against it. She gave me nothing to rebel against.

She did lay down the law about sex. As it turned out, there wasn't a guy in school that I was interested in, but if I had fallen in love with someone, and if I felt I was ready for sex, I wouldn't have hesitated. I personally think it is normal and healthy for a teenager who knows s/he is ready to have sex to choose to have sex. People don't become ready for sex on midnight on their 18th birthday. Some are ready before, some after. Only the individual knows when s/he is ready. I ended up losing my virginity at age 19, but it certainly wasn't my mother's admonitions that kept me celibate. I chose abstinence in spite of my mother's attitude.

I know a mother who actually encouraged her daughter to have sex at age 16, but her daughter wasn't interested in having sex yet.


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## sparklemom (Dec 11, 2001)

excellent points, devrock.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Peer pressure really hasn't been an issue. I don't think most kids her age are having sex, but even with things like what clothes to wear, or who to hang out with, or what to do in her free time. The only brand -nameclothing item I can ever remember her asking for was a pair of converse sneakers, which she bought with her birthday money, and the only kid she knew who had them was 4 years older and a boy, and wasn't someone she'd ever tried to emulate... actually, she doesn't try to emulate anyone. She does her own thing.

I do think unschooling helps a lot with this, and from what I hear and remember, peer pressue is a lot more of an issue at school.

If she does experiment with sex or drugs in a few years (and I wouldn't be surprised) I'll be there to talk to her about it, to find reliable birth control or pick her up if she's high or drunk and can't drive, and we'll talk, and we'l work t out. I won't make rules or punish her, because IMO that just makes kids sneaky.

It's worked so far...

Dar


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Many people I knew were able to tell their parents that they were sexually active; I think these are people who have healthy relationships with their parents. The kids who lie about it and hide it probably don't have the best home life.

Also, the kids who were honest about it were 16 and 17, not 10. I don't think 10 is normal. Maybe they are curious, but not serious!

As for drugs, again, many teens can tell their parents about it and others have to lie and sneak. Also, as far as smoking crack, I think kids who do that were probably already addicted to something else first! I don't know anyone who has ever said "Well, I had never done drugs, then I saw a bunch of people smoking crack in the bathroom at school and I just had to try it." A lot of hardcore cocaine and heroin addicts won't even touch crack. I have used a lot of drugs and crack was one I never touched. I thought I'd just fall over dead if I used it. Even among people who snort and shoot cocaine, smoking it is seen as an all-time low.


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## irishgreengables (May 25, 2002)

Okay -- the sex and the crack were merely examples -- they were not specifics. My point is this: a person had written that we should not limit TV because that is OUR value and we should not impose that upon our children. So I am trying to figure out then why would should not bring our children up with some of our values. I used sex and crack as extreme examples because personally, there aren't a lot of things I will not let my children do. However, I don't let them watch TV (we don't even have one) because I don't want their minds imbued with the messages and images of TV. Yes...this is my value, but I don not find it anti-AP to impose this value upon them. I really was focussing more on the TV issue and used the sex and drugs to ask simply if we are not willing to "impose" a value like no TV on our children and we think that is bad, where does it end? I think our children need to learn some values in order to function in society and in order to be happy. ISn't Gentle Discipline in and of itself an value we are imposing upon our children? I think it is a good one and I certainly want my children to grown up peacefully and where they learn to regulate themselves, but I do not want them growing up with TV brain...so that is another value I will impose. I guess I am just trying to figure out what is wrong with this?


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

I hear what you are saying Irishgreengables. For example, I do not allow my children to drink soda, or to drink beer for that matter, which yes, they would like to have a swig of papa's beer. (I know there are lots of people on here who think it's ok for kids to try alcoho, but I don't) These are my values I am imposing on them. I also try to limit tv, so that they don't know all about all those crazy "foods" that I am not willing to buy for them-green yogurt and the like.

I think it is one of those things though that can be done though in a way that is not so authoritarian. I do not say, "t.v. off now!", I say, "hey who wants to paint?" and that never ceases to end the t.v. at the age my children are, not sure what will happen later on though, I might just be forced to boot the t.v. as you have. When I buy foods, I tell my kids that I only like to use our hard-earned money to buy foods that are good for our bodies, and if we have extra money left over, I prefer to buy food for people who can't afford it, rather than buy food that is not healthy and that we don't need. I don't buy all totally healthy foods, but I don't buy doritos either, and I don't deny doritos at other's houses, but I do deny soda and beer, so I guess that makes me bad, but my kids are way too young to be exposed to those things, IMO, and we all do what we really think is best.

I am curious reading through these things, hearing people who will be ok if their 16 year old chooses to have sex, and I think that is their right to feel that way. I think generally speaking these people do not have AIDS from sex at 16 (And yes I am well aware that married people can get AIDS too). I will not be able to stop my kids from having sex at 16 or 15 or whatever age they decide, but I will impose my value of health upon them. I will tell them that no birth control method can protect you from things like herpes which last forever, and none can protect your heart, and talk to them about the possiblity of pregnancy and how it can *always* happen no matter how careful they are, and how they will have to chose to either keep the child, or abort, or adopt the child out and how all of those options are very hard ones when the person you are with is not the person you want to raise children with, etc. I will go on and on, telling them my values, and hoping that I have raised them in a way that makes them not want to do drugs of any kind, and other things like that. So, I will be telling my kids my values, and I will be hoping they make good choices that keep them safe and unhurt emotionally, and out of jail (unless they are little activists







).

All I know is, if it hadn't been for my parents disapproval I would be married to an abusive man right now, and not b/c they didn't love me enough, or b/c they weren't open enough with me, and not b/c they didn't allow me my freedom, they allowed me to date the guy, but made it clear that although it was my choice, they were not happy about it, and they got me out of a lifetime of horror, but imposing their value that I should not be with someone who hits me, or is emotionally manipulative, I am very thankful for that. There was another thread going about wether we can parent without our own childhood demons,and I think we can try, but I do look at some things my parents imposed on me when I was younger and I'm very glad they did, and they saw when I was old enough to decide for myself. I guess you and I, irishgreengables, are not TCS parents, and that's ok, just as it is ok for others to use that style. I use a lot of it, and I guess that's what makes me AP/gentle discipline and not TCS type.

It's all good


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I do impose my values on children, but some are only suggestions while some are requirements. Like, the "let's try to watch a video no more than every two hours" (she recently broke her leg and did nothing but watch videos; she has her cast off now and recently started walking so we are weaning her off them) is a suggestion; if she refuses to do anything else I will let her watch another one. But other things like "no hitting" are requirements.


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## Leatherette (Mar 4, 2003)

I feel like I am pretty mindful of my son's needs and feelings, but I could only agree with the food one. All of the others.....hmm. I don't feel like I "forcibly" do anything to my son or "make" him do things. Part of living in a family is negotiating and considering others. I do not enjoy playing with matchbox cars, but I do it because my son loves it. I don't expect him to wander around malls with me while I window-shop, but sometimes a quick errand needs to get done so we can get on with the fun parts of the day. I can't get a sitter for everything.

He doesn't like having his hair washed, so I do it as little as possible, but I wash it when it stinks. I get in the tub with him, cradle him in my lap and make sure no water gets in his eyes, and give him a little head massage. He is not kicking, screaming, or scared, and actually enjoys it once we are doing it.

Being gentle, preparing kids for things mentally, and acknowledging and alleviating fears goes a long way for us.

I parent him to sleep, but at a certain point, I say, "Mommy is tired. I can't talk anymore, but let's cuddle. No matter how "not tired" he was saying he was, he's out about five minutes after we stop talking.

I think we do kids a disservice if we let them think they can do whatever they want, whenever they want. They will be in for many a rude awakening if that is what they expect.

Am I a monster?
L.


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## sueami (Oct 11, 2002)

hi leatherette,
no, i wasn't thinking you were a monster at all as i was reading your post. i thought, well, good for her, it sounds like her son is pretty easy going and she doesn't run into too many parenting conflicts. (mine unfortunately, are not. oh well...)

one thing that occurs to me at the moment, and it has nothing to do with your post (except in that you said that you were mindful of your son's needs and feelings) is how unmindful so many parents around me seem to be of their children's feedback. i notice parents around me all the time ignoring or completely discounting the very strongly negative feedback they are getting from their kids. i'm thinking of a mom's club outing yesterday when babies, toddlers and preschoolers were screaming and crying all around me and most of the moms that i noticed were completely ignoring it, either not picking up the baby as it cried in its car seat







or dragging their kids away from the swings or the sandlot and taking them home without ever asking them if they were ready or wanted to go home. i'm pretty sure not one of those moms really even registered that their kids were protesting or that it might be possible to parent in a way that doesn't trigger a cascade of these little crises for their children each day.
and, i'm pretty sure none of those moms hang out here, so i'm no doubt observing a different parenting demographic...

and i just want to add again, for those who haven't read all the way through this 5 page thread, that this style of parenting isn't about letting children think they can do whatever they want, even if it may sound that way to you from the poll questions.
speaking for my husband and i, our parenting philosophy has always been that children will learn to respect others when they are raised with respect. they will learn to be flexible if their parents are willing to be flexible with them (unfortunately, kids don't grow up fast and i find i have to be flexible over and over and over again before i begin to get some of that flexibility returned to me from my dd.)
we really gravitate to the idea that children learn primarily through modeling and we think that more authoritarian parenting styles (again, not speaking about you, leatherette, but other voices i've read here at mdc that insist it's impt to lay down the law with your kids) model behaviors that we don't want our children to pick up.
glad to see the discussion continues. i'm going to guess that by the number of page views that it is at least piquing people's interest, even if it seems so radical to many.
warmly,
susan


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I am totally in favor of discussing one's values with one's children. One nice side effect of this is having a child who discusses her values with me, and why she thinks certain things are important.

I am not in favor of imposing those values on someone else against their will, even if that someone is my child. Actually, that should be *especially* if that someone is my child.

Negotiation and discussion are very important. My issue with some of the original poll statements were that they did seem very one-sided - there were issues that effected the whole family and yet the children were given the final say. I practice a harmonious parenting style in which neither the child nor the adult is expected to "give in", and we work together.

Dar


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## sueami (Oct 11, 2002)

those are good points, dar...
you know, i wrote the poll from my own parenting experiences, which are limited b/c my kids are so young. they really aren't able to give and negotiate as much as i would like them to, certainly not the way that older kids can. (it's late and my memory's fuzzy but i think i remember your daughter being older, 9 or 10 or even 13?) i'd love to hear how you would have worded some of those questions, how this type of parenting would be described by someone with an older child, if you have the time...


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## wildflowermama (Jan 13, 2002)

Thank you for this thread. I also think that (dare I say it?) non coercive parenting (or tcs) is a natural extension of ap. I really like the articles on the natural child site, one that really appealed to me (and kind of sealed the deal as far as non coercive parenting is concerned) is the Golden Rule of Parenting. Basically, I try to apply the golden rule to everyone. I especially try to treat my children how I would want to be treated. As a young child, I remember telling myself to *remember* how it felt to be a child. I work very hard to imagine how my kids might be feeling in a certain situation and act accordingly.

Jo


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## sueami (Oct 11, 2002)

jo, that is *exactly* how i have felt about parenting, even long before i became a parent! i don't know how many times i've watched other people react to their children and thought to myself, "don't you remember what that felt like when your parents did that to you?? don't you remember feeling that frustration, that terrible sense of unfairness??"
that said, i *know* there are times when i've said and done things to my kids that i would hate to see projected in front of me. it's so hard to break those patterns....

jan hunt's natural child site was the first place i saw this philosophy too. i have her bumper sticker on my car (children behave as well as they are treated).

interestingly, for all the discussion of controlling what our children eat here, and the concern over discussing TCS on this site, it was an article in mothering magazine that first opened my mind to the idea that we should let our children have control over what they eat to allow them a healthy relationship with food. i clipped it out and copied it off, b/c my family has such huge control issues about food and is constantly dieting/binging/self-hating...

fwiw....
susan


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## sparklemom (Dec 11, 2001)

i also remember having that same feeling!
and i also really enjoy the articles on the natural child site.

sueami, where did you get the bumper sticker? i'm not big on bumper stickers, but that's one i'd like to have.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by sparklemom_
*where did you get the bumper sticker? i'm not big on bumper stickers, but that's one i'd like to have.*
http://www.naturalchild.org/shop/bumper_stickers.html


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## Mona (May 22, 2003)

Whew! I just got through reading all the pages of posts!
I would like to express thanks to all who have been patiently explaining their parenting choices.
DD is 9mo, so I am very new as a parent. I agree with parts of TCS and CC. I think that to a certain extent they have similar principles.
Where I think they diverge, however is that doesn't CC lead by example, with some authority so that in theory the child isn't stressed out by choices they are unable to make comfortably, where as TCS is more "permissive" with options? I may be off here, so any feedback would be helpful.

Also, I am not able to take TCS to the fullest extent bc I belive that children lack one thing that adults have, and that is the experiential basis from which to make healthful decisions. This is not to say that children should n't make some of their own decisions- i believe that they should be encourgaed to make them. But i also think that their lack of experience shoud be taken into account with health and food issues, for example. (and i include TV in health issues). As an educated adult, i know what tv, sugar, meat (non organic esp) , ect and so on , can do to the mind and body. I think it is my job to strongly encourage healthy livestyles in those areas.

One last thing, I agree with those who have alluded that childrearing is a spiritual endeavor. It is an internal journey, and it is both exciting because of this, and even the more so challenging.


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## tinawind (Dec 25, 2001)

A question I didn't see answered in this thread, was about how a child could learn that other people have needs & to respect other people's needs when raised with the kind of parenting suggested by the poll.

I think one answer to that (that was somewhat implied in some posts) was learning it by example. Having their needs respected & seeing their family attempt to respect & attend to the needs of the various individuals.

I did not get the sense from poll that parents would sacrifice their own needs to those of their children, but that they may well change their priorities because of being parents, of learning not to dismiss children's needs/wants because of a conflict with parents needs/wants.

Christina Cat


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## levar (Jan 28, 2002)

*my children eat what they want, when they want. i encourage healthy choices but let them have the final say* I put healthy food in front of my 3 yr old 5 times a day. He can eat it or not. But if he doesnt, he doesnt get un-healthy food until he does. And nothing but water after 7pm.
*my children go to bed when they are tired. i do not set a bedtime, even tho i want conscious time to myself at night* Lights out at 8:30pm. But if he wants to talk/sing or play with dolls in bed until he sleeps that is ok, as long as he stays in bed with lights out. [Hall light on, door open.]
*i don't punish/gently discipline my child. i view anti-social behavior as a symptom of an unmet need/frustration and attempt to meet the need and brainstorm w/my child other ways of getting her need met in the future* We've been "using" 1-2-3 Magic sort of. So Taylor's "punishment" for hitting, biting, yelling, spitting, etc is quiet time for 3 minutes. We also try to re-direct or setup him up to succeed most of the time too. [Honestly, not sure what the rest of the question is about? Guess we dont do it?]
*i don't make my child say please, thank you or i'm sorry, but i talk alot about how helpful these words are in our social intercourse* We dont make him say please, thankyou, etc. But I've also never talked to him about it either. We/He just say it or not.
*if i cannot convince my children to brush their teeth through playful means, i try again at night, the next morning. i never force it* We force it. I ask. Then try a game. Then tell him either him or me. If none of this works, then I do it. Morning and Night. We tried not forcing it and gave up after weeks of no brushing.
*i do not forcibly bathe my children, brush their hair or make them change their clothes, no matter how much i may cringe at their appearance.* As long as they are sanitary and warm I dont care what they look like. And I dont cringe? But, again, we force if need be. Taylor hates pants. But I insist he wear pants to store and school. And he HATES having his hair washed, but we do it once a week no matter how loudly he screams.
*if they do not want to go to the park/disneyland/grandma's house, and i can't convince them it's in their best interest we do not go. i don't buy tix to such outings without getting their okay* We go. Punishing the rest of the family isnt a solution I am willing to take.
*ditto for running errands. i get a babysitter or dh to watch them if i don't think we can get through the errand without running into a conflict* I run errands. And if he screams through safeway I cringe and bare it. Behavior like that isnt acceptable. [Honestly? *I* dont want to do chores etiher, but they must be done?]
*if my child wants a treat on an outing/errand, i don't say no "on principle". I may negotiate a less expensive treat if necessary* I dont say no "on principle". We've started [with success] two things. First when we go to any store as we walk in I list what we are buying. No "extras". Second if Taylor is going to get a treat I say so, what it is, AND the conditions for the treat vs no treat. [Ex, candy bar on car ride home IF no tantrum, screaming, running, etc in grocery.]
*i don't force my child to go to routine dr or dentist visits. if roleplaying doesn't alleviate fears, we put off the appt.* I force Dr and Dentist apts. And we dont do roll playing. Once a year checkup and shots/cleaning happen. [Again, *I* dont like apts either, but if you have to go you have to go?]


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## sunbaby (Sep 30, 2002)

way back when this thread started, i read lots of these poll options and felt like 'well, that sounds real nice. i cant make it work because it just isnt practical.' but ever since then i have been watching myself and i realize that in fact, i pretty much parent the way described in poll.

i do practice a lot of cajoling, but i guess especially as dd gets older, the harder i push stuff, the more she digs her heels in. whereas if i make the suggestion and walk away from it like i dont care, pretty soon she wants to do the thing i suggested like it was her idea all along. it seems to me that kids really want to see mama pleased so i try to give her room to do her thing. and i dont really get why this is, but it all seems to balance out. when i respect halei, and consider her needs always, somehow my needs still get met- its not as if any one person in the family is carrying the whole burden. either dh can relieve me, or dd gets in such a happy content place because her feelings and needs are heard (with appropriate boundaries being set) that she eases up so i can take care of me.

for example, dd recently got into a phase where she had a fit every time we left the house, she just really wanted to stay home. after some thought, i realized that maybe she is feeling extra powerless and dragged around lately.(levar, i think this is an example of what the rest of the punishment question was about, unmet need causing antisocial behavior) so the thing to do would be to stay home as much as possible for a week. and i think that is the hard part, making the sacrifice and not worrying that it is gonna lead you to become a dorrmat- we are so conditioned to believe that if we give people what they need that they will just continue to take advantage forever and walk all over us. so anyway, we gave dd the home time she'd been crying for, and within a few days she is back to little miss cheerful and i can do all the bopping around i need again- within reason of course, otherwise i set myself up for a replay of the same scenario.


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## momsgotmilk4two (Sep 24, 2002)

The only ones I could vote on with a definant "yes" were the ones about not saying no "on principle"- I tend to allow them one treat when we're out, afterall I get treats why should they be denyed? I also voted yes to the one about not forcing please and thank you. We just say it and sometimes suggest it, and neither child has ever had a problem with it. I believe modeling the kind of behavior you're after works well where manners are concerned.

Many of the others I adamently disagree with, so I can't follow them, nor do I aspire to follow them. My kids have not had a real problem with tooth brushing, but regardless of how they feel, teeth must be brushed. I'm not willing to sacrifice their dental health in order to let them make that decision on their own. I try to put myself in their place. I would be *livid* if my mouth was full of cavities because my mom didn't care to make sure my teeth were kept clean because I "didn't like it". Ditto for the Dr.'s appts. I'm thinking in particular of ds 1's once a year cardio exam with u/s. Having that u/s is not all fun and games since he must stay still for 20 min. which is pretty hard for a 3 yr old, but we need to find out what is going on with his murmur. I would never forgive myself if anything happened to him as a result of his not wanting to go and my going along with that. We found out about the murmur at a routine Dr.'s appt.- his 2 yr checkup.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Forcing a child to open his mouth to have his teeth brushed can be very damaging to the mouth and teeth, as well as to a parent's fingers if they are bitten. Children can also have bones broken if they are being restrained by a parent while this is going on. Is it really worth it?


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## NoraJadesMama (Aug 16, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by sueami_
*jan hunt's natural child site was the first place i saw this philosophy too. i have her bumper sticker on my car (children behave as well as they are treated).
*
I realize that in large part this slogan is a plea that we treat children with compassion and non-coercion. But does this also imply that if a child is treating people badly it is only because s/he has been treated badly? Thus a child who has grown up with only kindness will have no aggressive behavior? I would love to hear more about what this slogan means to those of you who have/wish to have the bumper sticker. TIA


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Well, I believe that children who are treating others truly badly (as opposed to just normal childhood behavior that may be a little annoying or self-centered) are being treated badly by others, if not in the home, then in the school. Parents (and teachers) should know they can't treat children badly and then expect well-behaved children. Childhood most definitely matters!


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## NoraJadesMama (Aug 16, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*Well, I believe that children who are treating others truly badly (as opposed to just normal childhood behavior that may be a little annoying or self-centered) are being treated badly by others, if not in the home, then in the school. Parents (and teachers) should know they can't treat children badly and then expect well-behaved children. Childhood most definitely matters!*
That makes sense! Thanks Greaseball!


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## sueami (Oct 11, 2002)

what greaseball said!

it took me quite a while as a new parent to realize (and i'm still realizing it, in the ever-unfolding developmental phases of my children) that there's a whole range of self-centered behavior that's totally to be expected from children, based on their developmental stage (thank god for those "your two year old" and "your three year old" etc child development series books) and yet another spectrum of frustration-triggered behavior that people can certainly describe as children treating others badly -- but again, i find that it's developmentally linked -- it takes a long time to develop the emotional skills to not be overwhelmed and have our behavior controlled by anger and frustration -- heck, there are plenty of adults walking around today who are vivid examples of that, myself included, i'm afraid.
the revelation for me was that i could, with enough self-awareness, choose to respond calmly and without anger, frustration or shaming to my children's anti-social behaviors. my automatic reaction was exaggerated dismay and at times real anger. it finally occured to me that they could no doubt receive my message that it's not okay to hit someone much better if it wasn't loaded with my disapproval and anger, and that they wouldn't be learning (as i did) that my anger was bad, dangerous, made me a terrible person and threatened my connection/approval/acceptance from my parents.
i suddenly saw and was able to question my unconscious assumption that children would only learn something was bad if i made them feel bad about themselves for doing it...

i think i wandered a bit off-topic there, but all that was to say that treating our children with equal respect and dignity is not going to produce tiny mother teresas, because growing up isn't easy or quick. but there's been several posters on this thread already who indicated they were raised with this philosophy and they like who they are and how they turned out...
warmly,
susan


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

I cannot check off any of those things. My dd is spirited and I tried gentle discipline, I really did. But she *needs* structure. She needs firmness sometimes. I cannot gently tell her anything when she's locked in on something. So we use time-out, natural and logical consequences. She has to have a regular bedtime or she gets out of control, but doesn't fight bedtime at all. Within the boundaries we have for her she's a very secure, happy, social child most of the time. (Going through a grabbing stage but that's the age.)

But she's a little firecracker and talking to her softly and trying to negotiate with her does not work when she gets into certain frames of mind. When it comes to health-related things like brushing teeth there are no compromises. We can compromise about her helping me hold it, or her brushing her teeth herself when I'm done, etc. But she has to do it 2x a day. I would rather enforce this rule than have her restrained in a dentist's chair while they drill cavities, KWIM?

If I let her choose what to eat every day she'd want to eat snacks only. A 2 year old does not know about nutrition. Yes I give her choices between two healthy foods but cookies for dinner are not an option.

She hates having her hair shampooed. I try to do it as fast as possible but when she had food matted in it or sand in her scalp I'm sorry, but it needs to be washed.

I could go on and on. I don't spank. I don't shame or scream at her. Coming from an abusive home where CPS removed me twice, I would say I'm still doing pretty darned good. I don't worry that she's upset for going to time-out if she insists on stomping around on the kitchen table despite repeated requests not to. She gets a hug afterwards. I really think that kids need to have reasonable boundaries set for them in important areas like manners and health and safety. They are more secure sometimes knowing what's expected and what the consequence will be, than being allowed to run wild and out of control. I will never spank or shame my child, but I will have one with good manners and health.

Darshani


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## momsgotmilk4two (Sep 24, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*Forcing a child to open his mouth to have his teeth brushed can be very damaging to the mouth and teeth, as well as to a parent's fingers if they are bitten. Children can also have bones broken if they are being restrained by a parent while this is going on. Is it really worth it?*
Pardon me if this sounds rude, but give me a break







: You lost all credibility when you suggested that restraining kids in order to have their teeth brushed could result in broken bones. Let's not get dramatic. If you *really* think that the normal mom trying to get her kids teeth brushed is in any danger of breaking their bones, you're insane









Also, kids who treat other kids badly on occasion have not necessarily been treated badly themselves. Kids pick up on everything around them- even some lady at the grocery store who they may be watching, or other kids at the park could have influenced them to try out a certain behavior. It's up to parents to teach their kids which behaviors are acceptable and which are not.

Am I reading this right? Do you not even HAVE kids?







:


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

Pardon me if this sounds rude, but give me a break You lost all credibility when you suggested that restraining kids in order to have their teeth brushed could result in broken bones. Let's not get dramatic. If you *really* think that the normal mom trying to get her kids teeth brushed is in any danger of breaking their bones, you're insane
Not that I care about credibility in your eyes, but what the heck, I can answer this -

My little brother's collarbone was broken because he was being restrained as my mother was trying to force him to put on a jacket. He was a year old. He was squirming and didn't want to wear a jacket, and my mom figured "Oh, can't let the little baby win, he must know who's boss" and after a long struggle was able to get him into the jacket...at a cost. People underestimate how much a baby can twist and how strong it really is. If he didn't want to wear a jacket he should have been able to skip it. My mother could have brought it along just in case. And no, she did not hit him or kick him or do anything but restrain him. It was his squirming that snapped the bone, but still, he shouldn't have been given a reason to squirm.








: Yeah, maybe I don't really have kids and I just come here because I have nothing better to do with my time.







: That is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard, and I really didn't expect I'd hear it here. It's often used as a last resort; when a parent realizes she has nothing intelligent to contribute she knows she can say "I bet you don't even have kids!" Talk about losing credibility...

I am not the only person who thinks its dangerous to force a child's mouth open, or to force an object into his mouth. Any competent doctor will tell you the same. If I want my (real, existing!) child to brush her teeth, I try asking nicely, since I have to treat her that way if I have any hope for her at all.

I suggest you educate yourself. I obviously know a *little* more about these things than you do. Don't worry, though, I'm sure things will pick up for you someday.







or else!


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## momsgotmilk4two (Sep 24, 2002)

The reason I suggested that you had no kids is because in your sig line you mention that you are pg, but no kids are listed.

My kids brush their teeth just fine, fyi. They like it in fact. The few times I have had to catch them in order to do it, they have not put up so much of a fight that I have had to pry their mouth open or wrestle them to the ground. I think you need to get a little clearer on your beliefs. Either you think children are like little wild animals biting and gnashing at their parents, or you think they're reasonable people. Which is it? I have also read articles by pedi dentists, suggesting ways to restrain them safely and get the job done, so obviously not all Dr.'s agree with you. Very few in fact would say just don't brush their teeth for weeks on end if that's what they prefer. Still not sure how you have proven yourself to know more than I do about this. My kids and I are doing just dandy, thankyouverymuch.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

Either you think children are like little wild animals biting and gnashing at their parents, or you think they're reasonable people. Which is it?
Any reasonable child will put up a good fight when outright force is used to get him to do something he does not want to do, especially something involving his own body.

Most other parents I know would try to get the child to want to do it. And if you ask people at my local LLL, teeth-brushing isn't all that necessary unless you have genetically bad teeth.


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## momsgotmilk4two (Sep 24, 2002)

Which people? The other mothers? And what age of kids are we talking here? I'm not talking babies who are not eating any more than mush and mommy milk. I'm talking older toddlers. Anyway, my kids like brushing their teeth for the most part, but they also don't really seem to see it as an option that you either feel like doing or you don't. They seem to see it as part of life, like riding in a carseat.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Hi ladies!









It's getting feisty here again









I think I understand part of what is going on, some of us have pretty agreeable kids, I honestly have never had any problem getting my kids to brush their teeth, it is just something we do, our toothpaste tastes good and they have cute little dinosaur toothbrushes. It is hard for me to imagine even having to force a toothbrush into my child's mouth, if you have gotten to that point, IMO, something more is wrong there.







: At one time I was struggling with getting dd's hair brushed, it get's crazy bed-head at night, and it was hurting her when I brushed it, so I bought detangler, I got her hair cut a bit to lessen the mess, I bought her a bunch of do-dads for her hair (let her pick them and the new brush, and spray bottle), anyway, that was about the most difficult thing we've had so far, and it was pretty easily remedied. I think there is a lot of room between forcing a child and just "letting it go" Incidentally LLL is the only place I have ever heard people claim that brushing teeth was not all that necessary, never heard it form a dentist or pediatrician though, so I don't know







: I do know that I would do everything in my power to gently get them to enjoy toothbrushing and to do it, but to each their own. I really do think though, there may be some underlying problem with kids who nothing gentle works for with regards to these things, maybe sensory problems?

Do a lot of people really have kids who are this "spirited" about these things? I guess it's hard to know what I would do with a child that just could not be convinced about these things (although some on here would argue that I shouldn't even be convincing them







: ).


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

They were talking about toddlers. I trust their opinions more than most doctors.

My dd also likes brushing her teeth, but when she doesn't want to and can't be bribed, we skip it and try tomorrow. I'm not surprised that there are people who are going to







: and tell me about how she will for sure have all her teeth yanked out before she is 3 years old, but they come off as a little over-dramatic to me.

Carseats, OTOH, really are necessary for survival but if she doesn't want to get in, we wait until she does. Fortunately she now likes to. Whenever she has to do something she doesn't want to do, like get a shot, we give her a bottle of soda or milk with a few spoonfuls of sugar in it. Oh no, her teeth!









I have been known to bite dentists myself if what they are doing hurts. That's probably why I am knocked out at every routine cleaning. It works great for both of us!

Another thing I do is if dd doesn't want to do something, I ask her why not. Although she can't answer me in so many words, I think it's good practice.


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## sueami (Oct 11, 2002)

on the toothbrushing front, from what i have read (casually, i haven't done exhaustive research) and heard about from other mothers i know, i think susceptibility to cavities is largely genetic. my kids teeth are fine so far and they get brushed 1/4 to 1/6th of the time than they would if they were in a different family. i have a friend who has been religious about brushing her dd's teeth from the age of 1 twice a day and her daughter wasn't much over two when she was diagnosed with 5 cavities.

i agree with jess that, in this instance, as in much of life, it is not an all or nothing proposition.
i know in my thinking i can get quite polarized and believe that if i don't enforce something all the time, the result will be chaos and never getting it done.

i suggest to my daughter that we brush her teeth at night and morning. i let it go if she says no, but if she says no twice in a row, i may tell her that i'm feeling worried that i'm not helping her learn to take care of her body as well as i should (because that's really what's going on with me -- i can't say with any certainty that it will harm her not to brush her teeth for two days running, and i don't believe any of you can either, no matter how you may feel when you read that statement)

well, i had more to say (as usual) but the kids are clamoring (as usual.)
susan


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

It is hard for me to imagine even having to force a toothbrush into my child's mouth, if you have gotten to that point, IMO, something more is wrong there.
Exactly! There has to be more to the situation...kids don't refuse things like that for no reason.

Of course, most peds and dentists will say toothbrushing is essential, but they also say breastfeeding is dangerous after the kid has teeth (although some are supportive). There are dentists in my town who refuse to see toddlers who are still nursing.


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## momsgotmilk4two (Sep 24, 2002)

I think it's horrible that dentists won't see nursing toddlers. I don't see them refusing to see kids who eat candy, but then of course there would be hardly anyone left for them to see







: I have heard of more moms having problems with dentists and nursing than I care to remember







Personally, I do feel that tooth brushing is important, but my kids have never been adamently opposed to it. I bought them electric toothbrushes and they think they're the coolest things in the world. If they don't want to brush in the bathroom we brush in front of the t.v. (oh, the horror







) so I guess I'm having a hard time seeing the big problem of getting kids to brush their teeth that you would have to go days or weeks without







: When I was talking about "forcing" them to do it, I meant not just simply asking them and then if they said "no" leaving it at that. My kids are not *that* spirited, but they are pretty playful and will sometimes say no just to see my reaction. There have been times when I chased them down to brush their teeth, but once I caught them and had them sit on my lap, they opened up and let me brush. That is what I meant by "force". They maybe would rather have not brushed but were not *that* opposed. If my child refused to open or was kicking and screaming and this was happening all of the time, I would think we had bigger issues than the tooth brushing.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

My son WILL NOT brush his teeth.

He also ALWAYS refuses to get dressed.

And to change his diaper.

And to wash his hair.

He has been this way since birth. Extremely stubborn.









So, what do I do?

Let him go without brushing his teeth for 2 years?

Let him go without clothes? We live in Norway.....

Let him go with a wet/dirty diaper all day?

Let him go without washing his hair for months?

Not all children react the same way. My son HATES the feeling of not being in total control. And when I have to brush his teeth/change diaper/get him dressed he doesn`t feel like he is in control.

I have never forced the toothbrush in to his mouth. But I have had to hold him to get the diaper off, to get the diaper on, to get the pants on e.t.c. Most of the time I tell him that we HAVE to to this, and he will kick and fight and cry. But he will eventually let me do it.

It really breaks my heart. But I can`t let him go for MONTHS without brushing his teeth. And he needs to wear clothes.

He is just a little boy. He doesn`t know that not brushong teeth can cause him to have problems with his teeth later. He dosn`t know that going without clothes can make him sick. He doesn`t know that going with a wet diaper all day can make his little bum soar.

As a parent I feel that it is my job to make sure that these things are taken care of. I would LOVE to not have to hear him cry when I wipe the poop from his bottom, but to NOT wipe the poop away is not an option IMHO.

Hopefully this will get better when he is able to do these thing himself...

But until then, what do I do?


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Tamara

I hope you didn't take offense to me saying that kids who won't brush teeth (with some coersion maybe) all have something terribly wrong with them. It does sound like your son may be extra senstive to touch though, and to being overpowered, and that is a stage for most kids, but can become habit for others.

If I had your son, I would do everything I could think of (which you probably have) then I would post on here looking for more suggestions, but in the end, he would wear clothes and be clean.

How old is he? My 2 y.o. ds can dress himself completely, and my dd could much younger than that, same for teeth (although, I follow up







) also, I find lots of tub toys makes kids stay in long enough to get clean bodies, and hair (well, I put pictures of things he likes on the ceiling above the tub, and ask him who is up there, and it works ok) but if he's fussy, I only do hair once a week, and I keep his hair very short. In the end though, my kids have been pretty easy on these things, and I think if the first is easy about it, the rest will be more likely to follow suit, and the opposite may also be true







:

So, I say, make a post, ask for suggestions for good ways to "coerce" him on these things







and keep doing your best to make things better for both of you, that's all you can do.

Someone else just mentioned electric toothbrush (and I admit to having blue's clues toothpaste







) maybe you could try those things?

Good luck!


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## momsgotmilk4two (Sep 24, 2002)

Tamara, I do feel for you since my oldest son is pretty stubborn too. I am trying to see the positives of that and what it can do for him later in life if only we can help him to channel it







It does sound like he probably doesn't like not being in control. What has worked with my kids is to find ways to let them be in control. He can't choose whether or not he needs his diaper changed, but maybe he can choose where the changing takes place and what diaper to wear. With ds, I am careful to phrase things well. Such as "would you like to brush your teeth before or after this show?" *not* "do you want to brush your teeth". For him, this works well because I am not asking him a yes or no question. There was a book that helped me a lot when he was about two called 1, 2, 3... The Toddler Years. Choices were a big thing in that book and it got us through a really rough time. It's very much in the gentle discipline style which really appealed to me. A friend gave it to me after I was complaining to her how hard it was and that people kept giving me all this harsh advice about how to "keep him in line". Nothing is a magical cure, of course, but it helped.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I seem to have the opposite problem...dd doesn't want to stop brushing! So we let her take the toothbrush to bed, and she drops it or it gets lost because she likes to carry it around with her all day, so we are always having to buy new toothbrushes...

She also used to really hate diapers. She would scream and thrash and cry real tears, which she doesn't do unless there is something really wrong. But with diapers, of course, there is the possibility of serious rashes if they are not changed, so we do have to do it. We make it as pleasant as possible - the soda or milk&sugar bottle again, or do it while she is watching TV. Every time she had a babysitter I would instruct them to give her sugar each time they changed her.

Now, we don't have this problem and we don't have to give her the sugar. It looks like she has developed positive associations. So I agree that certain things do have to be done, but there is no reason the child has to feel any pain or discomfort. There is almost always some way the child can be rewarded that will make it better.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

When Rain was a toddler she hated the diaper change thing. For a while, it worked if she could just stand and pull off her own diaper. For a long while, I'd go run warm water in the tub and she'd stand there playing with the water while I changed her.

I think small children changing clothes is way overrated. For years, Rain slept in the clothes she'd worn that day, and sometimes wore them the next day. She had a few outfits she liked and wore those over and over, which was fine. Some of them had *gasp* characters on them, but she liked them, and it's her body. And if he gets cold, he'll eventually want clothes, or a blanket, or something... unless clothes have become so much of a power struggle that he's fighting them to gain control of the situation. Rain often went around in shorts and a tank top when it was in the forties outside, and was fine...

For a toddler, chewing on a damp washcloth makes a pretty good tooth-brushing substitute, and it's a lot more fun for the kid. Ditto on the suggestion of an electric toothbrush. Also, try brushing without toothpaste... actualy, I think toothbrushing is kinda overrated, too, so much of it is genetics and diet. Eat cheese or chew gum after a sugary snack, have a glass of water before bed...

The basic idea is to think outside the box, to look at the issue and think of other ways to handle it, and decide if it really matters of it's just what society thinks.

Dar


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## sparklemom (Dec 11, 2001)

"The basic idea is to think outside the box, to look at the issue and think of other ways to handle it, and decide if it really matters of it's just what society thinks"


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I think too many people still believe the whole "If you child GETS cold, he will then GET A cold." Colds are caused by a virus and are pretty much inevitable. If you dress your child warmly and he gets the virus, he will still get a cold!

I pack away all the non-seasonal clothing and I tell dd that she needs to wear shoes if she wants to walk outside, but that's about it. If she still won't wear shoes we just carry her or use the stroller. If she doesn't want to wear a jacket, well, I know what can happen from forcing a child to wear one! It's just not worth it.

Also, I think people know what's best for themselves. A child won't let himself get too hot or too cold to an unsafe degree. I sure would hate it if during August, when I still turn the heat on and wear coats, people kept telling me I was too hot and ordering me to wear something different.

There was a time when dd was in a cast and didn't want to take a bath because she couldn't walk around in it, and we didn't want to upset her, so for 3 weeks there was just no bath. We wiped her down with baby wipes and that was about it. We decided stinky kids with greasy hair were better than upset ones...fortunately she's back to loving bathtime again! It got to where I really was starting to wonder what people thought, but it just wasn't worth it to upset her.


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## sueami (Oct 11, 2002)

"For a toddler, chewing on a damp washcloth makes a pretty good tooth-brushing substitute, and it's a lot more fun for the kid. Ditto on the suggestion of an electric toothbrush. Also, try brushing without toothpaste... actualy, I think toothbrushing is kinda overrated, too, so much of it is genetics and diet. Eat cheese or chew gum after a sugary snack, have a glass of water before bed... "

dar, i thought these were great ideas/thoughts and i hadn't run across a number of them before... thanks for posting that.

as for shoes, ds doesn't wear them for more than 5 minutes at a time and we don't force it, although we always try to put them on him, if he's willing. (he's 22 mos) he hasn't injured his feet yet and his sister, at 4 1/2, now wears shoes consistently, after being given the same freedom.

with clothing, i suggest to dd what would be seasonally appropriate, but if she wants to wear the backless sundress in 60 degree weather, i just pack a second outfit and let her know why i'm doing it. because it isn't a control issue for her, she has never let herself get uncomfortably cold just to prove that she can pick the clothes she wants to wear...

both my kids seem much more warm blooded than me and will wear less clothing that i would, but they rarely even catch a virus (despite the muttered imprecations of frowning moms/grandmas that we pass by)
fwiw,
susan


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Quote:

Whenever she has to do something she doesn't want to do, like get a shot, we give her a bottle of soda...
Greaseball, I didn't understand this when I read it. Are you joking or is this a technique you use to have sugar dull the pain? Or just a bribe for compliance? (BTW, I'm serious, not trying to be snippy. Just wanted to understand what you were saying.







)

Re: toothbrushing, it's something we started early when the first tooth popped up, with the goal of instilling a healthy habit.

When dd or ds put up a giant fuss about it, which happens occasionally, I just let them suck and chew on a toothbrush that I wet with water (which I rinse and put back in their mouths for more chewing a few times). But usually I get at least a wiggle in. I figure the important thing is to rinse their mouths, especially before bed, and chewing on the toothrbush works fine. 8 times out of 10 though, it's a full toothbrushing, especially now that they're older with lots of teeth and eating lots of things. Regardless of approach, "toothbrushing" is routine in our house, after breakfast in the morning, and right before bed. If either of them threw a big fit about it more than a couple of times in a row, then I would consider it a health issue to go 2 or 3 days with no toothbrushing, and I would just brush their teeth as gently as I could, explaining why.

I kind of feel like, with this thread, that a lot of us are saying the same thing, but are explaining it differently. I'm not sure anyone is saying it would be A-OK to let a child not brush their teeth for an entire year just because they didn't want to. Am I wrong about that??? I mean, at some point, you intervene as a parent, it's just we're arguing over when that point is, and how the intervening is done (i.e., ahead of time with any luck, or gently after the fact if needed for their health and well being and that of the rest of the family). Is anyone actually saying they would let their kid eat Diet Coke and Cheetos all day every day for a year? I don't think so. "Offering healthy choices" notwithstanding.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

Greaseball, I didn't understand this when I read it. Are you joking or is this a technique you use to have sugar dull the pain? Or just a bribe for compliance? (BTW, I'm serious, not trying to be snippy. Just wanted to understand what you were saying.
OK, I should have said it's for stuff that she finds painful or scary, like getting a shot or going on the x-ray table. Not just everyday stuff. Sugar does dull the pain, more so in babies, and it is something of a bribe too, I guess. I did use it for diaper changes for a while because she was really upset by them. She used to cry more at a diaper change than she did for a shot. Now she is fine with them, even without the "drugs."

I realize there are things children have to do, but for me I think the right thing to do is offer some kind of reward if the thing hurts, is scary, or is demeaning.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Lots of great advice here!

But I have to disagree when it comes to clothing. If Noah doesn`t want to wear shoes, we don`t go out. Simple as that.

Things might be a little different in Norway. Its only October, but its already ice on the ground when I wake up in the morning. no child should go outside without shoes when its as cold as this.

The same goes for clothing. Going out without a jacket is ok if its 60 degrees. But what about 20, like its here now?

So, he has to wear appropriate clothes when going out. Heck, its even cold INSIDE in this country...







:

I am all for respect and treating children right. But my son doesn`t understand that going outside when he has a fever and a really soar throat (like today) is not a good thing. So, I have to tell him that we can`t go out until he is well. He doesn`t like it, but if he DID get to go out, and got even sicker, he would be even more angry/upset.


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

not sure anyone is saying it would be A-OK to let a child not brush their teeth for an entire year just because they didn't want to. Am I wrong about that???
I think the point is that a child wouldn't go a whole year without brushing. If the situation really WAS that extreme the parent would probably try to figure out WHY the child was so against the tooth brushing and correct that issue. Forcing the child doesn't solve the problem, just covers it up by taking the child's choice away.

I don't think anyone is saying they are waiting around for the child to decide to brush or not brush. If my ds didn't want to brush I would ask him why, find ways to make teethbrushing fun, offer choices in toothpaste, try different toothbrushes, sing songs, talk about proper dental hygene, and model good dental hygene. I would never force him, threaten him or punish him. That wouldn't teach him the very important lesson that it is HIS body and no one has the right to make him do things with it or to it against his will (which is a valuable thing for him to know).

Laurie


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

When it comes to coats and shoes, it is very easy to allow the child to learn on their own. If my ds wants to go out without shoes on a cold day he will learn very quickly that is not a good idea. If I allow him to take one or two steps out the door he will ask me for shoes because he has learned that it is uncomfortable to be outside without. Of course if I have made a really big deal out of it and fought with him about it, then relented and said, "well go out without them" then he would probably be too stubborn to ask.

As for coats, the same generally applies, but with my ds he seems to prefer really cold temperatures, so often when I think he needs a coat he really doesn't. He can sit for long periods of time in ice cold bathwater, but feels very uncomfortable in anything above luke-warm. (he also won't eat hot food, and often refuses even warm food, he prefers everything cold) I have learned if he says no coat he means it. I will just bring along a sweater in case he changes his mind.

Laurie


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

LOL

I'd love to ask my 16 month-olds WHY they don't want to brush their teeth.

"Babba nana kookookoo..."









OK so that's what I thought. We're all about making sure they brush their teeth, no one is saying it's OK not to, even if that's dc's choice. It's just the method and timing of the intervening that differs.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

I'd love to ask my 16 month-olds WHY they don't want to brush their teeth.
I know they can't always answer in the way we can understand,but I've been asking "why" of dd ever since she was born (heck, before she was born: "Why do you like to stick your feet in my ribcage?") and even though I can't understand her, it's good practice. It lets her know that I repsect her reasons, and that she does, in fact, have good reasons for her choices and is not just doing things to "test" me.


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

We're all about making sure they brush their teeth, no one is saying it's OK not to, even if that's dc's choice. It's just the method and timing of the intervening that differs
Well, it is okay if my ds decides not to, he probably has a reason for it and its his body so I won't force him. That doesn't mean I don't offer, educate, and negotiate







The thing is, if I don't make a big deal of it he will brush again eventually (I doubt many children go years without brushing under normal circumstances), especially if I take the time to figure out the problem so we can find a mutually acceptable solution (when he was around a year old he hated tooth brushing, but didn't mind me wiping his mouth with a cloth for instance). The difference is he is completely respected throughout the whole process, I do not manipulate or coerse through threats of punishment nor will I physically force him. I treat him with the same respect I would treat any other person.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I just went to the dentist for a cleaning yesterday (which I had to do without drugs!) and they said "great brushing." I guess they couldn't tell that I only brush for about 30 seconds at a time, and sometimes only once a day. The cleaning took only half of what it normally did, because of my superb dental care at home.

When I was 12 I did not brush for 3 months. I didn't wash my face, either; all I washed was my hair. It was really gross. This was not a normal circumstance - I was rebelling against years of force around bodily functions. Also, although my mother expected me to do my part with brushing, she almost never took me to a dentist, which was her responsibility as a parent. Between the ages of 3 and 16, I saw a dentist maybe 4 times. I believe this is what led to me having 6 teeth pulled.


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## sueami (Oct 11, 2002)

i love how akirasmama has explained her point of view in this discussion and i totally agree.

i, for one, wouldn't state it this way --"We're all about making sure they brush their teeth, no one is saying it's OK not to, even if that's dc's choice." this implies that the most important thing in parenting is that our kids brush their teeth.

i'd probably say something like -- i'm all about helping my daughter learn to care for her body and respond to it's needs and cues.

i'm not about insisting she brush her teeth twice a day, or even once a day, although i suggest and encourage it and i would worry if she went more than a day or two without brushing teeth. she responds to my worry though and i've never had to force or threaten punishment to get her to do it. (i think there's a certain assumption here that children are illogical and unwilling to make their parents happy and my experience has been completely the opposite. there are times when my daughter is oppositional but there's usually a reason that makes sense from her point of view if i can take the time to figure it out and the rest of the time she really does try to please me, not that this is my goal in raising her.)
i want my daughter to adopt healthy self-care habits. i also want her to grow up to be an independent, emotionally healthy person who feels good about herself and doesn't carry negative self-talk about taking care of her self. i can't say for sure if this is how to achieve that, but this approach makes sense to me and to my husband, both on an intellectual and on an intuitive level.
fwiw,
susan


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

I totally agree.









Just in re-reading previous posts, it was clear that many people took the poll to mean that it would be OK if a child NEVER cleaned their teeth. Clearly that's not what anyone is saying. I think as I've posted before that the interesting part lies in the grey area and how we handle that, not in assuming totally divergent approaches... as in, somewhere between "I'm OK with no dental hygiene at all, if that's what dc wants" vs. "I force my child with threats and abuse to brush their teeth" lies the interesting discussion about how we all handle it.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*I just went to the dentist for a cleaning yesterday (which I had to do without drugs!) and they said "great brushing." I guess they couldn't tell that I only brush for about 30 seconds at a time, and sometimes only once a day.*
Just out of curiosity, are you either vegan or non-dairy vegetarian? My mother claims that ever since she gave up dairy, she has always gotten compliments at the dentist's office. There simply is no longer any build-up on her teeth for them to clean off.

She actually isn't vegetarian -- she eats meat. She just cut out dairy.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

No, I eat just about everything. I do try to avoid soda, and if I have it I make sure to brush extra, preferably right after drinking it.

I was raised as a vegetarian, though, and in early childhood had only soy milk or goats' milk.


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## Mallory (Jan 2, 2002)

I read that you aren't supposed to brush right after soda, because it does actually eat away at your teeth and when you brush you can physically remove those parts before your body has a chance to replace them.

Don't brush!


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

I find it interesting that a lot of the discussion has gone toward the tooth brushing. Luckily we haven't had problems that way. I think it is because there are so many "cool" toothbrushes and toothpaste flavors (even Tom's has a kid friendly flavor)

My "issue" or problem or whatever you want to call it was the statement about not going someplace if your child didn't want to go. Which I can totally see happening if there is just one child, but through in 1 or 2 or 6 more and that really isn't an option. Having 3 kids it has been a struggle sometimes, not all the time, to have everyone in agreement, and sometimes someone is doing something they don't like. We do try to make it as pleasant as possible for the person who doesn't want to go, but even that doesn't work to well all the time. Occationally DH or I stay home with the one who doesn't wish to go out, but that is only when DH is home. He works all week till late, so most of the time it is just me. But like I said this isn't an everyday or even an everyweek thing. Just occationally.
I do think that that isn't such a bad thing. You know, doing something for others even if it isn't your favorite thing. (NOT to the point of abuse or anything like that) But here is an example.. when RUSH comes into town we "have" to see them. DH loves them, he has forever. They aren't my favorite band, but I go because he loves it, I love being with him and he is having a GREAT time. I mean I could stay home, but I love being with him more than I dislike going to RUSH concerts. And I have actually come to enjoy them.
And my older two kids are in music lessons, we go to a coffee shop next to the place and have chocolate milk and a cookie and wait for the music person to finish, and it has made the wait a lot shorter and the two not in the lesson have a good time.
I think it is about teaching compromise. That all thought it is nice to get your way all the time, that just isn't going to happen. (Sometimes but not always) and I know compromise isn't always going to make everyone happy, but that too is something that happens.
I am NOT for forcing little ones into compromise all the time. I mean 2 year olds aren't always into compromise.
:LOL
But I think working toward it is a good thing. I can't see letting a child have their way ALL the time with out any reguard for the other family memebers as a good thing. I want to state again I know that very young children don't at all get that concept right away, and I am NOT saying to force some wierd-o stuff on little one to "learn them up right!" But I think it needs to be something that is worked toward. I mean it seems to me our world is totally run by people who think only of themselves and not the group.

OK I think I am done.
H


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

To me, with not forcing a kid to go somewhere, it means that instead of buying a ticket to Disneyland (OK, that will never happen; I'll use a more realistic example) or planning a trip to the pool, I don't just do it and assume dd wanted to go - I'll ask her, (Yes I'll ask my 22-month-old who has a vocabulary of only 50 words) and see what she thinks. If she were to say no, I'd forget all about it.

To me that's different than a family outing planned that the child wanted to go on, and then having her change her mind at the last minute and ruin it for everyone else.


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## sueami (Oct 11, 2002)

mamaof3,
it sounds like you're doing just what we try to do too. i'm sorry that i didn't take more time writing the poll questions (i had no idea the discussion would stick around this long). when i was writing, i was thinking of my kids, who *are* very little still, and i didn't have the space to flesh out each poll option either.
i was pretty much thinking of what greaseball said when i wrote it.
i think i was also thinking about parents in my neighborhood who make plans and load their kids up for an outing when they're clearly protesting and the parents ignore this, insisting that they'll have a good time when they get there.
i was also thinking about how we would suggest outings to my dd (at 2 1/2 or 3 ) and even though they sounded like great fun to us, she wanted to stay home and do chalk drawings on the sidewalk. dh and i sometimes talked about feeling trapped by this little willful toddler who never wanted to go out, but eventually i came to think of it in terms of "the whole world is brand new to her and our backyard is as fascinating and full of lessons as disneyland or the zoo is." and eventually her horizons broadened and now she wants to go out places every day and i can't keep up with her wanderlust.
in retrospect, i was talking about giving kids an equal voice in family outing decisions. and to me, that means a veto power equal to ours. the trick then, is finding consensus, and you're right, i imagine it's going to get harder for us to find common preferences as our second gets older.
that said, our son doesn't object to outings yet, so we haven't had any conflict. we do have trouble getting him to leave places sometimes and my dd has been remarkably patient about it; she may protest and say she wants to go and urge us to pick her brother up and carry him back home kicking and screaming, but she seems to understand when we explain why we don't want to do that.
as it works out, it's not an equal voice -- the younger kids do end up getting more of a voice because they're simply not able yet to understand why we want to go or stay or that there are other people with interests of their own involved in the decisionmaking process. but that doesn't last forever and my dd can and does take my interests and my husband's into account some of the time now.
i think this whole idea of common preference finding is one of the trickiest aspects of this type of parenting and i haven't really explored it myself yet....

gotta run but thanks for giving me a chance to clarify what i meant a bit...
warmly,
susan


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

I wasn't trying to say I give my children no say. I was just trying to clarify that with more than one child, it is a lot harder to just do what ever one wants and poopoo the others. Occationally everyone is gonna get poopoo!







:
My older kids are in tune with the fact that when the little guy has had it it is time to go. Otherwise everyone is having a horrible time with him crying or getting into everything.
We try to have things up to a "vote". But even that isn't always a sure thing. I mean if you go with majority rules then some one who doesn't want to do something, being stuck doing something.
I want to say that I TOTALLY get what you are saying. I have noticed that the more respectful we are of our childrens feeling and requests the better everyone acts. Even if they have to do something they don't really want to do.
We did go to Disneyland this summer, and DS#1 REALLY wanted to go on the Indian Jones ride, I mean that was what Disneyland was for him, he was really excited. BUT he was too short, we all didn't go on the ride. (Even though we all wanted too) out of consideration for his feelings. Because we could all go (well except the baby) and have left him, but we decided that it wasn't the right thing to do. DD was upset at first, but when I explained that it would really hurt her brother, she was totally understanding. (Not really sure about the relivance of this story, just that I guess it was a compromise and a respect thing...)

I think being respectful toward your children is very important.

H


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## sueami (Oct 11, 2002)

hi, mamaofthree -- don't know if you were addressing this to me -- "I wasn't trying to say I give my children no say. " -- but i wanted to be sure that you understood that i thought you were putting a lot of thought and energy into trying to juggle the needs and interests of your kids. i was applauding that.
your disneyland story was interesting to me, i think because we may have grown up in very different households.
to me, if one kid was prohibited from going on a ride by park rules, it wouldn't have occurred to me that the solution should be that no one gets to go on the ride, no matter how much they want to.

i'm wondering if in your family, your mom (or dad) responded to the distress of one child by making sure that everyone else had to make a similar sacrifice, to somehow make the first child feel not alone?

not that you're asking for my input here, but if i had faced your disneyland dilemma (and if i'd had a few moment's peace to think clearly) i think i would have probably commiserated with the too-small child, sat quietly with him or her while she wailed out her frustration and loss (if that's what was going on) and then when that subsided, offered another ride, a special treat or toy purchase to make up for the disappointment, while the rest of the family went on indiana jones (of course, if *i* really wanted to go on indiana jones too, i'd have tried to to go on it again later maybe with the older kids while dad did something with the little one, but frankly, that ride gives me whiplash!)

anyway, i just wanted to offer another way of looking at that situation, from someone who grew up in a decidedly un-self-sacrificing household (that had it's own set of basic and often flawed assumptions about how people are supposed to treat each other that i am still trying to perceive, decode and dismantle, as necessary)
warmly,
susan


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

I thought the Disney land story was interesting too. I would also try to make the other children understand and empathize with the "too small" child, and hope that they made the most kind decision, if they were not willing to "take one for the team







" without being really upset about it (I mean not willing to make the sacrifice with love), I would take the "too small" child somewhere else and do something as special as possibe to make it up them that others were going on the ride, there is no way I would go on, I will always make the loving sacrifice for my children's feelings.

I think you handled it well.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

I just want to say thank you all soo much for this thread!

After writing a few posts here I have been thinking about this thread day and night for the last days.

I have felt so bad every time I have forced him to do things. Getting dressed, changing his diaper, brushing his teeth e.t.c.

I will not force him anymore. I will try the advice some of you gave me, and if that doesn`t work, then we will just have to live with him being in the same clothes for a while! LOL

The last 2 days I have been brushing his teeth with a washcloth, by the way.









Thank you for helping me raise my son in a respectful and loving manner.


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## bouyant (Jul 28, 2003)

Tamara,
I'm sooooo glad to hear that!
I just bothered to read more of the reply's on this very long thread today, and after reading your thread skipped through to see if you had posted again. There is NOTHING wrong with your child. I know because I am Very much like him. Coercing a child that wants to be in control that much, and has as sensitive skin and is as warm blooded as I am, will only







. I think perhaps noncoercive parenting was "taught" to parents by kids like us. As my kids share many of my wonderful atributes, I was soooo happy to find this way of parenting. We would love it if you came and said hi to the tcs group over on Sage Parenting


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

I want a link! I want a link!









Its midnight here, and I am off to bed.. G`nite!


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## sueami (Oct 11, 2002)

tamara, thanks for posting that, from me too...
i've almost walked away from this thread several times, b/c it takes a certain amount of energy to keep explaining and defending and that's energy i don't have a lot of at this point in life. in fact, i *really* like being at the sage parenting board precisely b/c i don't have to explain anything -- they're much farther along this parenting path than i and i'm learning so much about myself there, not to mention about how to parent my kids in the way that i aspire to, that i keep wondering if i shouldn't take a break from mothering entirely, (esp. as it seems as though my viewpoint isn't shared by many people here and i notice that i find it stressful and disconnecting to feel like such an outsider here, as i'm sure we have all experienced as APers in real life)
so anyway, thanks for posting and i would love to hear how it goes for you with your son....

the link is

pub3.ezboard.com/bsageparenting


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## sparklemom (Dec 11, 2001)

thanks for the link.
sueami, i have felt the same feelings you expressed.
i'm so glad you started this thread. it made me realize i really am not the only one.


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Is it just me, or is that adress wrong?

I can`t seem to get to the sage boards with that adress....

Anyone have another link for me?


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## sueami (Oct 11, 2002)

hmmm, it's working for me, but maybe that's b/c i have a cookie on my computer from registering.
try this, it's their website and on it is a link to the message board

http://www.two14.com/sage/website/


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Thank you, Sueami!

But I managed to get to the boards on my own...

I had forgotten a letter...


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## larsy (Nov 28, 2001)

For anyone here interested in getting any of Jan Fortune-Woods books on autonomous education and parenting with consent, it just got easier.

go to Jan's Autonomous Child website:

www.autonomouschild.co.uk

go to the link on books, then on 'purchase here' then click on your country's flag.

best wishes,
larsy


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

Sueami,
I don't think I was raised in a self scarifying (sp?) household, infact I think was an "every man for himself" kind of thing.







:
It wasn't a very big deal with Dh or DD that we didn't go on the ride. DD was upset for maybe a total of 30 seconds :LOL
.
But trying to fenagil cooperation from the masses at times can be trying.







:
But honestly it isn't to terribly often. I mean like going to the market could be a total disaster, BUT the store we shop at has LOADS of samples out at the lunch hour, so that is when we go. AND TADA!!! My trips to the store have gone so much easier.

Anyway I guess that is all I have to say for now.









H


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I'd never heard the phrase TCS before, but I am a big Jan Hunt fan and have read about these values (without that name) and feel I pretty well practice them myself. However, I think the questions were worded badly. For instance, I would never force my dd to have her teeth brushed, nor would I just look the other way while her teeth went bad. When she fussed about teeth brushing, I looked into different styles of toddler tooth brushes and different flavors of toddler tooth gels and tried them until I found a combination she liked. Isn't that the whole idea of it - finding a solution everyone is happy with.

And as for the doctor/dentist visits, if dd didn't want to go I'd probably try to turn it into one stop on a fun day of different things, so it didn't feel like such a bad thing to do. If she really freaked out about it, I'd cancel the appointment and make it for another day - she might be happier about it in a few days (I mean we all have bad days, you know).

So I guess the gist of what I'm saying is that there are solutions other than "force teeth brushing upon" and "child never brushes teeth." I think the point is respecting a child's autonomy and finding solutions for problems that both the child and parent are happy with, rather than forcing children to comply to one's will. IF that makes sense LOL.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Found this old poll which seemed interesting. What are your thoughts?

Pat


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Oooo- I remember this one, my views have changed a lot since when this thread was new







.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Oh yeah I remember this. I think the only one I voted for was

"if my child wants a treat on an outing/errand, i don't say no "on principle". I may negotiate a less expensive treat if necessary"

and it's still the same today, though to be honest, it would more accurately be written if you replace the word "negotiate" with "offer". If we can't afford something or something is not in line with our values, there is no "negotiating" involved. Explaining, yes... negotiating, no.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Peppermint* 
Oooo- I remember this one, my views have changed a lot since when this thread was new







.

I take that back, I just re-read and everything I wrote back then was pretty "on" with where we are today, only we have another kid who is "easy" and I still don't have to worry about tooth brushing, etc. I am one lucky mama







.


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## Twilight (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:

my children eat what they want, when they want. i encourage healthy choices but let them have the final say
No. I can see how this would work for some families, but family mealtimes are important to us, and we all eat together for the three squares a day. Small snacks are OK anytime, and we keep a healthy selection of snacks she can choose. When it comes to meals, I'm not willing to be a short-order cook, but if she tries what we're having and doesn't like it, I am OK with offering a couple of easy alternatives - yogurt or reheated leftovers or a cheese sandwich, say.

Quote:

my children go to bed when they are tired. i do not set a bedtime, even tho i want conscious time to myself at night
No. Again I can see how this could work for some families, but I suppose my type of gentle discipline does believe in setting limits for children who are too young and lack the maturity to do it themselves. Sleep is important for good health, both physical and mental. It's important to the functioning of our family. I've seen our daughter deprive herself of sleep in the past, so I have come to believe in setting up a loving bedtime routine and an environment that encourages a long stretch of uninterrupted sleep. We are all more cheerful and healthy this way.

Quote:

i don't punish/gently discipline my child. i view anti-social behavior as a symptom of an unmet need/frustration and attempt to meet the need and brainstorm w/my child other ways of getting her need met in the future
Yes. I do believe children act out because of many reasons - unmet needs, lack of judgment or knowledge or maturity, etc. I believe in using those moments as teachable ones, and finding out the root cause of the problem.

Quote:

i don't make my child say please, thank you or i'm sorry, but i talk alot about how helpful these words are in our social intercourse
I should be better at this. I believe in it but am not great about walking the walk... sigh

Quote:

if i cannot convince my children to brush their teeth through playful means, i try again at night, the next morning. i never force it
No, as mentioned above I don't think children always have the judgment to do what's right for their long-term health. Toothbrushing is so important. We had to force it maybe 3 times TOTAL since she was an infant... ever since then DD enjoys it. We are playful with it, but insistent. It has to be done every night.

[/quote]i do not forcibly bathe my children, brush their hair or make them change their clothes, no matter how much i may cringe at their appearance. [/quote]

Generally yes. We don't force it, but we've gotten quite good at convincing DD that it's in her best interest to look and smell clean! If it's a bad night or morning though, we let it go. This is just appearance, no biggie. I save the battles for health related issues.

Quote:

if they do not want to go to the park/disneyland/grandma's house, and i can't convince them it's in their best interest we do not go. i don't buy tix to such outings without getting their okay
When possible. The grandmas live far away, so we kind of need to plan those things months in advance, and if DD doesn't feel like going to the airport that day we can't exactly negotiate it. But yes, if I wanted to go to the park and DD doesn't want to go, as long as I'm not committed to going, no biggie - we don't go.

Quote:

ditto for running errands. i get a babysitter or dh to watch them if i don't think we can get through the errand without running into a conflict
Again, when possible. DD is really good on errands generally, so I can't speak to this one as much.

Quote:

if my child wants a treat on an outing/errand, i don't say no "on principle". I may negotiate a less expensive treat if necessary
This is interesting... I don't say no on the principle that "kids have to get used to not always getting what they want." I do consider everything she asks seriously and I talk to her about it. But I say no sometimes for many reasons. Maybe I don't believe it's in our best interest for her to get a sugary, trans-fat-laden treat at this time in the evening. Maybe it's a cheap, poorly made toy that was manufactured by underage workers in a third-world sweatshop and we really don't need it. Maybe she's already had two treats today and dinner is going to be served shortly and I think she should eat something healthier. I don't have a problem with getting her a little something to enjoy while we're out on an errand - but not three little somethings to enjoy.

Do we say no for reasons other than principles?

Quote:

i don't force my child to go to routine dr or dentist visits. if roleplaying doesn't alleviate fears, we put off the appt.
We go to the visit, but if there's something about it she doesn't like, I don't force it. She didn't have to sit in the big chair at the dentist, for example. I talked to the dentist about examining her teeth while she was on my lap and I read a book to her.

All of the things you mentioned are child-centered, but do you think they're essential for attachment parenting? Can't we be attached while believing that setting some loving structure in a child's life is an important role for a parent?


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## sueami (Oct 11, 2002)

A blast from the past! Thank you, wuwei, for reviving this old thread. I'm very interested in your consensual living link. I'll have to explore when I get a chance.

I wrote this poll 3 years ago, as I was realizing that I was wanting to parent along the lines of Taking Children Seriously. I hadn't identified the philosophy entirely, nor did I realize that MDC wasn't going to support much discussion of TCS (apparently the discussions got too heated.) In fact, I left MDC because there was no place for me to discuss my take on parenting, although I thought it should have been a natural fit here.

Twilight, no I do not think that the general parenting concepts I was trying to get a handle on are essential for attachment parenting, though I think they promote attachment between parent and child by minimizing unnecessary conflict.

With the thread title, "beyond attachment parenting," I was trying to say that attachment parenting practices had taken me through the first couple of years of my children's lives but did not give me a framework that felt right to me for dealing with their burgeoning selves, as they began to assert themselves and explore their world.

TCS is where I went after that first year or two with my child and I'm still there. I'll be very interested to read more about consensual living. Perhaps it is easier to discuss and digest that TCS seems to be for many!

Warmly,
Sue


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