# Traditional Foods (NT) Mamas-June Thread



## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

As our last thread was getting really long and hard to follow, I wanted to start a new thread. Could our old thread be archived please?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gale Force*
I would like to try bread and had intended on soaking the flour. I had an appt yesterday with my doc and he said that the only way we should have bread is if you sprout the grains, mill them, and then bake. The idea of milling sprouts is very odd to me. How would you possibily end up with anything that looks like flour? TIA

This method gives you a result like "Manna Bread" from the health food store. It is also called sprout bread or Essene bread. You get a very moist, sweet result. To mill them, I use a food processor or a wheatgrass juicer, and you get a sticky dough that you shape into a small loaf and then bake at a low temp. I'll see if I can find a recipe in my files.


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## cathe (Nov 17, 2002)

Did it!


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

I have done that with sprouts before then I have dehydrated the milled sprouts to make crackers. Yummy with sprouted chickpea hummous.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

thanks toraji, thanks cathe.

btw, i burned out my old food processor doing that, 'member? (old thread <g>)

suse


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Here are the instructions for sprout bread from a good friend of mine:

1 cup of preferred grain (I really like kamut and rye so far)
pour into wide mouth jar and cover with a clean mesh.
add double the grain's amount in water-- so for 1 cup of grain, 2 cups of water

soak overnight

drain the next morning

rinse and drain thoroughly twice a day and store in a dry dark place

you will see that the grains swell after the soaking and will start sprouting little white "heads" that get longer and longer as the hours and days go on

When the sprouts are 2 or 3 times the length of the grain (about 2 or 3 days for rye and kamut), rinse them drain them and put them in a food processor. (or Champion or augur wheatgrass juicer)

you will get something that is a bit like the consistancy of hamburger.

form it into a loaf and smoothe it out a bit, flatten the top a bit and stick it in a preheated over at 275

bake for 3 hours. Check it-- spray it with water if you want. You know when it is done because the outside has a crust and is slightly firm, the bottom when pressed on gently springs back and the inside is moist.

Take it out, let it rest until cool because it firms up a bit and then eat. You will want to refridgerate it.

Don't forget to rinse the grains well and drain them well- you don't want to worry about bacteria and stuff. I have actually been dumping mine out into a large mesh strainer and washing them well but gently so I don't break off the sprouts and then carefully putting them back in the jars.


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

Hi, can I join you guys? I'm just starting NT, but a lot of stuff rings true with me... some leaves me scratching my head. I'm sure I'll have questions the farther I get into the book.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Thanks toraji!

We will definitely try that.
Sounds interesting.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Persephone*
I'm sure I'll have questions the farther I get into the book.

Is this and the other thread based on a book? I thought we just were discussing traditional food culture and methodology.

Can someone bring me up to date?







:


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

Uh, I thought the (NT) stood for "Nourishing Traditions", a book that talks about traditional foods and the health benefits from them. It's here: http://tinyurl.com/ypdu2 If not, them maybe I should be







:


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

I think you are correct Persephone...maybe more people will weigh in.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

NT does indeed stand for Nourishing Traditions, but the ideas in there are based on traditional cultures and their foods. So this thread would be of interest to anyone eating a whole omni or (to some extent) veggie with fermented foods diet using traditional cooking methods and ingredients.

I don't personally agree with everything in NT and also take ideas from Body Ecology Diet, The Maker's Diet, Mercola, paleo diet, and the Rea Center. But NT is the most familiar name for this style of eating which is why the thread has it in its title. Or at least, this is my understanding of it.


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## xenomama (Jul 15, 2003)

Yes, you're right. It's also following the principles of www.westonaprice.org.

I'm fermenting my 1st batch of kombucha - I'll let you guys know how it goes.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

well, that was my thought when i titled the first (or the first thread i participated in, i mean) one 'nourishing traditions' but called the second 'new traditional'; i wanted to be more inclusive than just following one book, you know? it's a way of eating, not following a guru (but wow, i do respect all the research and ideas in the book; what a motivator.)

suse


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

Oh, whew. Glad I belong here.







I agree about not following a guru. I get my resources from all over, and try to create a healthy balance. I don't agree with everything in the NT book, but a lot of it resonates as true with me. Another good cookbook for traditional foods is "Extending the Table". I'm reading that one right now, and it talks about various ethnic foods, and eating sustainably.


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## xenomama (Jul 15, 2003)

So glad to see more influences! I know the last thread also talked about Wild Fermentation.


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## Worldshakerz (Jun 16, 2003)

Yeah, I don't use everything in NT but I use a lot. It has really helped me to figure a way to eat healthy and organic food and keep the budget under control.
I also read many other sources. I read a lot of things on Mercola.com and got his book. I just got the Metabolic Typing book and am anxiously awaiting it in the mail. In NT it does talk about the importance of also taking into consideration your personal metabolic type, any food allergies, etc, etc.

Tomsgirl...bubbly vibes to you and your first batch of kombucha! I love kombucha...I have two gallons brewing in my pantry that will be ready sometime this week. I test it on day 8. What I usually do it put one in the fridge on day 8, and the other on day 10. That way I have slightly different tastes, the 8 day one is slightly sweeter.

I have 2 gallons of beet kvass in my fridge. I drink about 8oz per day. Its so easy to make, so healthy! And me and my crazy healthy taste buds like the earthy, bubbly, sweet and tangy tasty. My hubby hates it.....my 16 month old ds loves it! I notice a huge improvement in my digestion within a day of drinking it. I pretty much drink water, yerbamate, kombucha and beet kvass these days.

I'm going to have to try the sprouted bread. Can you put it in a dehydrator or does it actually need to cook?


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## xenomama (Jul 15, 2003)

Can we make a "book list" of references for the newbies (like me)? Here's a start:

Nourishing Traditions: The Cookbook that Challenges Politically Correct Nutrition and the Diet Dictocrats by Sally Fallon
Nutrition and Physical Degeneration by Weston A. Price
Wild Fermentation: The Flavor, Nutrition, and Craft of Live-Culture Foods by Sandor Ellix Katz, Sally Fallon

What do you think of these? List at Amazon

What about a list of sites, as well?


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## cathe (Nov 17, 2002)

There is also another way to make sprouted bread that is more like regular bread (I think this is how Ezekial Bread is made).

You sprout the grain, then dehydrate or dry it (like bulgur). Then you grind it to flour and use like flour.

I tried it once. The flour was very sweet but I couldn't get it fine enough to use alone in bread (I don't have a grain grinder - just used a blender).

I added it to pancake batter and it was really yummy.


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

I think I may have asked about this before, but I can't remember -- I found a few different NT forums at around the same time and can't remember what I read where. But I'm wondering if anyone has experience following the diet for pg or nursing moms at the WAP website, or the Brewer diet . I try to follow my instincts with each pg and nutrition, and this time around I've really been feeling like I need to increase my protein. I've been having the worst sugar cravings I've ever had (and giving in to them lots







: ) and then of course dealing with having no energy, moodiness, feelings of depression, etc. way, way more than in my past pregnancies. I just tend to get a little lost, and wonder if I really need to eat as much meat/animal products as is recommended. Or rather, if I would be able to eat as much of that stuff as is recommended. And then I have a hard time applying it. I just get dazed and confused when I sit down and try and make a meal plan for the week following these guidelines. Plus, I have to think of the other members of my family, who don't need to be eating so much meat. Has anyone followed this diet? What kinds of foods did you eat?

I don't know why I'm having so much trouble with this, but I've tried and never really gotten into the "groove" with it, if you know what I mean.


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## morsan (Jul 24, 2002)

Hi everyone.

I was amazed to see you're still keeping this thread alive. I'm back after a few stressful weeks of moving and settling in.
Does anyone know if doing cultures in 90-100 degree wether is possible?

Josefina.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Hey morsan! Glad to see you made it!

Cultures in that temperature will ferment a lot quicker than usual. So you will need to watch them more carefully to make sure they don't get too sour/yeasty flavored or run out of fermenting power.

If things are fermenting too quickly you can slow them down either in a cool basement or even in the fridge.

elainie would probably be the best person to respond to the pregnancy diet question.


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

Hi everyone









About the beet kvass. Is that the recipe from NT ?

Anyone try the banana bread recipe in NT ? I avoid bananas like the plague coz of human right issues & pesticides etc on them, but I have managed to find some dried wild bananas from the pitcarin islands. I rehydrate them & mash them up to make the odd banana cake for dh with. the NT recipe soaks 3 c of flour in 2 c of kefir overnight. I find it is not enuf liquid to do all the flour & I ended up with this paste I then had to real mix the other ingedients into to get an even mix. I am thinking about using sourdough culture instead next time & mixing it all by eye on the consistency to see what happens.

My sourdough bread is now amazingly good. My last batch rose like proper yeasted bread & dh even ate it!

I have my first batch of saurkraut on right now. me & dd made it & had a great time. I am involving her in testing it every now & then so she is used to the flavour when it is done.


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

I do the muffin receipe, but I think it calls for the same ratio of flour to wet ingredients for the soaking time, if I recall correctly. Organic milk is a stretch to our budget, and my yogurt is always so watery I have lots of whey, so when I make it, I do 2 c water plus 2 tbsp whey. Sometimes it is pretty thick, other times not so much. I find it is somewhat tricky to mix the soaked stuff in with the other ingredients, but more because the soaked stuff is almost... gelatinous. It's wet enough, but it kind of holds its shape, I end up using a whisk to break it up, and then my muffin bread (I don't do it in a muffin tin, I use the muffin recipe but put it into pans) is pretty flat. But usually tasty, so no one minds.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OceanMomma*
I have my first batch of saurkraut on right now. me & dd made it & had a great time. I am involving her in testing it every now & then so she is used to the flavour when it is done.

That is great ocean Momma!! We do a lot of craut around here....my dd will eat a bowl of it at a time. Homemade craut is so amazingly tasty!

My favorite treat is dandelion wine with raw cheese and craut on a hot evening.

Its the german in me I think!

What kind of crocks does everyone have and where did you get them?


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## RAF (Aug 13, 2002)

Hello Shannon and everyone,









I wanted to reply about the pregnancy diet promoted by Weston Price Foundation. I just looked at the page to refresh my memory, and I pretty much followed this diet during my last (second) pregnancy. I ate quite a bit of meat, as I was on a grain free diet with not much other starch either. I am someone who believes that eating alot of meat is healthy and not something to be scared of or to avoid, especially not for children or pregnant women.

I know for me depression, sugar cravings, etc. are a sign of not enough animal fats in my diet. Cod liver oil helps tremendously, as well as using lard for cooking and baking and butter from pasture fed cows. Eating dark meat and eating the fat from steaks, etc. is also important in getting rid of sugar cravings. During my "NT" pregnancy, I did not eat refined sugar at all and honey sparingly. I was able to stick to this diet, because I was eating alot of nourishing animal foods rich in fat and cholesterol, which are extremely important. I am also a very thin person and do not gain weight from this way of eating, although I know of some who don't cut back on all the starchy foods they are used to eating, plus add in lots of fat, who do gain weight.

If you are concerned about cholesterol, please read _the cholesterol myths_ by Ravinskov (sp?). Also research some on the internet about paleolithic nutrition, which is geared towards meat as the main staple in the diet. It is very eye opening and educational. Here is a link to some meat recipes and all sorts of other recipes, including baked goods even, that do not call for a lot of starch and sugar: http://www.paleofood.com/

http://paleodiet.com/ is another place to look into info about high meat diets. Anyway, I don't make meal plans, unfortunately, but I am in the process of starting that habit right now. I really think pregnancy is a time to go with our intuitions on things, regardless of what our past programming may be telling us. Anyway, I could go on and on about this, so if you have anymore questions, feel free to ask, as I don't want to get too carried away in one post.







I hope something here has been helpful.


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## elainie (Jan 5, 2002)

I followed different variations of a WAP type diet the last three pregnacies.
First time around NT had just been published and I followed it eating soaked grains, dairy, etc.. amd gained lots of weight (which came off) had a healthy robust baby etc.. Then when he was around age one I started eating a Primal diet (raw animal foods- no grain) which led me to another pregnancy when he was 3.5 years old. I changed things around a bit and ate very little dairy and minimal grains (still ate raw meats ). Had another healthy baby and 3 years later another pregnancy which led me to eating a Makers diet (with 30 hour fermented raw goat yogurt) and again minimal grain (everytime I craved amaranth and brown rice I would eat it and then feel like vomiting ).I ate raw wild salmon eggs, raw eggs, raw meat, raw fish etc.. and lots of vegetables. I also ate cooked meats as well. And I did eat meats/eggs/fish three times daily along with lots of vegetables (especially greens). I had another healthy robust baby.
After years of experimentation I found that a Paleo type diet is what works for me the best, although I will cheat here and there (next time I crave raw goat yogurt I will eat it although I don't crave any dairy at the moment).
You just need to find what works for you as far as protein levelds etc..
Oh, I did and do use cod liver oil as well as fish oil and krill oil.


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Thanks for the input.

RAF, I'm not concerned about cholesterol etc. I'm just not a big fan of eating a lot of meat -- I love meat, but I love everything else too, especially bread. Since I'm snacking a lot, I find it easier to make some toast (always buttered -- at least a tablespoon per slice) than to get something made from meat. I think perhaps I need to do a food diary, so I can see how much I'm actually getting of everything. I feel like I eat a lot of meat, but when I think about how much time I put into preparing meat/animal foods vs. plant foods, I spend much more time on the latter. And I'm eating (lately) a lot of refined sugar.







: I fell off the wagon, so to speak. It's getting better now that there is nicer, fresh fruit available, but I know that how many simple carbs I eat in a day is often determined by what I eat when I first get up, and when I'm tired and hungry, those cookies are much easier and more appealing than making scrambled eggs. (I currently have almost 4 doz eggs in my fridge, and a doz free-range, organic duck eggs due to be delivered here this afternoon... I have no excuses for not eating eggs!) I have noticed throughout my life that I gain weight from sugar consumption (think Hallowe'en candy, cakes, etc.) than from fats.

elainie, it's interesting to read about your different diets and experiences. Did you find it hard to adjust to the raw animal foods? We have a new kitten and I'm feeding her a raw/natural diet, and when I'm cutting up raw liver for her, I think about raw food diets. I know it's my programming, but I would have a hard time sitting down to a plate of raw liver. I know people do it and it's not gross to them, but.... not what I'm used to. Are dried meats/jerkies considered raw? I could easily do raw eggs in dressings -- I love the taste of runny yolks in eggs, but the texture of raw whites puts me off. I've had dressings with raw yolks, they are very yummy.


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## xenomama (Jul 15, 2003)

Does anyone know:

-what maltodextrin is?
-if "seedless" watermelon is GMO/ GE, or if it's just too young to have seeds?


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Daniele,

The seedless watermelon is some sort of hybrid, I don't know it's characteristics, but it's definitely not seedless because it is too young to have seeds.

Amanda


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Just a quick report -- I tried to raspberry drink recipe in NT but substituted blackberries (recommended as a sports drink). It's basically fresh berries food processed, fresh orange juice, water, and whey fermented for two days. It then gets strained and refrigerated.

The taste seems a bit sweet (punch-like) unless it's diluted by about half. It is definitely good on hot days. My son drinks the diluted version happily, but he doesn't get much to drink that is sweet.

Yesterday I started a batch of beet kvass. I am looking forward to tasting the finished product.


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## xenomama (Jul 15, 2003)

My 1st kombucha batch is awesome!









Oh, and you can buy NT at www.overstock.com for $15.99, including shipping.


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## Worldshakerz (Jun 16, 2003)

Tomsgirl--cool on the first kombucha batch! I need to get some more brewing. My two sun-tea jars in the fridge is down to 1/2 of one...my brother in law came over to us and he loved the stuff, he drank two glasses and I ended up giving him a baby to take home and make some for himself









Gale Force--I've been making beet kvass for just about a month now. It's so easy to make! And yummy. I usually drink one glass before bed, and one when I wake up.

Oh, and I got that Metabolic Typing Diet book I mentioned before. I'm a protien type according to the 65 part questionaire and I'm following the recommendations in there to the t, and after four days I'm noticing lots more energy and also losing weight! Unfortunately my type can't eat NT pancakes and oatmeal for breakfast as often as I like. The first five days I can only eat the protiens (quite an extensive protien list bacon, fish, game, beef, whole fat dairy (raw and/or cultured of course! etc, etc) and the allowed non-starchy veggies: asparagus, celery, spinach, mushrooms, and fresh beans. Starting tomorrow I get to start adding some starchy veggies like corn, potato,squash etc, but only 1 tablespoon with my meal to start, and each day adding another tablespoon to see how my body reacts. Then I move on to the allowed whole grain like oatmeal, ezekial bread, and sourdough breads, again in small portions so I can fine-tune exactly to what my body likes. This eating plan combined with NT methods is awesome.

Oh, interesting side note: at the health food store that I frequent I saw Ezekial sprouted grain cereal. The box looks exactly like the bag the bread comes in. Has anyone tried this? I figure when I get to the point where I can have a little grain now and then, this would be nice treat.


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## fourangels (Jun 23, 2004)

Hi~ I am new here, but thought I'd pipe in. I followed the WAP recommendations with my 3rd pregnancy and felt wonderful the whole time. I gained about 20 lbs. Had an easy birth and a wonderfully healthy baby. With my 1st pregnancy I gained 120 lbs, 45 with my second and now with my 4th I'm 22 weeks and up to 15 lbs. I am pulling it together at this point and getting back to my NT book. It really made a difference. I have kombucha brewing and will be picking up my raw cream to make butter tonight. Everybody has a differnt body, though. What works for some doesn't necessarily work for others.
Angel

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brisen*
I think I may have asked about this before, but I can't remember -- I found a few different NT forums at around the same time and can't remember what I read where. But I'm wondering if anyone has experience following the diet for pg or nursing moms at the WAP website, or the Brewer diet . I try to follow my instincts with each pg and nutrition, and this time around I've really been feeling like I need to increase my protein. I've been having the worst sugar cravings I've ever had (and giving in to them lots







: ) and then of course dealing with having no energy, moodiness, feelings of depression, etc. way, way more than in my past pregnancies. I just tend to get a little lost, and wonder if I really need to eat as much meat/animal products as is recommended. Or rather, if I would be able to eat as much of that stuff as is recommended. And then I have a hard time applying it. I just get dazed and confused when I sit down and try and make a meal plan for the week following these guidelines. Plus, I have to think of the other members of my family, who don't need to be eating so much meat. Has anyone followed this diet? What kinds of foods did you eat?

I don't know why I'm having so much trouble with this, but I've tried and never really gotten into the "groove" with it, if you know what I mean.


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## fourangels (Jun 23, 2004)

Oh, interesting side note: at the health food store that I frequent I saw Ezekial sprouted grain cereal. The box looks exactly like the bag the bread comes in. Has anyone tried this? I figure when I get to the point where I can have a little grain now and then, this would be nice treat.[/QUOTE]

I have 5 boxes in my pantry right now







I love it!! I found it just 2 weeks ago. I make fresh almond milk from sprouted almonds then make a little smoothy with frozen banana and pour it over 1/2 a cup of the cereal...yummmy!!!!!


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

OK, fourangels and those of you who followed the guidelines (or similar, high-animal products diets), I sat down to plan my meals for the week yesterday, then I went back to see how closely I would be following the guidelines. I was already loosely trying -- espeically making sure I was getting enough fish -- but just kind of keeping it in the back of my mind. That was when it really sunk it that the diet calls for fresh beef or lamb, and oily fish or lard, _every day_. How did you do this? I think I'll be alright for the other fish requirement (fish/seafood 3-4 times a week), the kids and I both love fish and dh is learning to love it. I'm also buying some of those canned kippered snacks and sardines and things (I like them







), for times when I don't manage to get the fish thawed and prepared. Not the best, but I figure better than rice krispies for dinner







: . The eggs, the butter, the milk products I can do, easily. The veggies are getting easier (though I haven't l-f'd any yet, just making sure I have some cut up on hand all the time to pull out with each meal). For bone broths, I have worked in sauces or gravies to some of our meals. I think I can do chicken liver or other organ meats once a week for sure, maybe even twice a week, if I can have chicken hearts instead of liver.

I feel so lost! Lol.


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## fourangels (Jun 23, 2004)

I took fish oil every day. Cod liver in the winter and Wild Salmon in the summer/spring and fall. I also made beef stock every week (chicken stock too) and drank the thick gelatin filled broth in a mug like tea.
Angel

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brisen*
OK, fourangels and those of you who followed the guidelines (or similar, high-animal products diets), I sat down to plan my meals for the week yesterday, then I went back to see how closely I would be following the guidelines. I was already loosely trying -- espeically making sure I was getting enough fish -- but just kind of keeping it in the back of my mind. That was when it really sunk it that the diet calls for fresh beef or lamb, and oily fish or lard, _every day_. How did you do this? I think I'll be alright for the other fish requirement (fish/seafood 3-4 times a week), the kids and I both love fish and dh is learning to love it. I'm also buying some of those canned kippered snacks and sardines and things (I like them







), for times when I don't manage to get the fish thawed and prepared. Not the best, but I figure better than rice krispies for dinner







: . The eggs, the butter, the milk products I can do, easily. The veggies are getting easier (though I haven't l-f'd any yet, just making sure I have some cut up on hand all the time to pull out with each meal). For bone broths, I have worked in sauces or gravies to some of our meals. I think I can do chicken liver or other organ meats once a week for sure, maybe even twice a week, if I can have chicken hearts instead of liver.

I feel so lost! Lol.


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## xenomama (Jul 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourangels*
I also made beef stock every week (chicken stock too) and drank the thick gelatin filled broth in a mug like tea.
Angel

Why haven't I thought of this? That's how I can get DH to drink it!


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## Worldshakerz (Jun 16, 2003)

Fourangels---cool on the Ezekial cereal, I can't wait to try it in the near future; and that sounds great with the almond milk, frozen banana smoothie on top! What a simple healthy dessert/snack.

Have any of you ever made pemmican? I made some last year and absolutely loved it! It's all I wanted to eat, it was such and easy and yummy snack and/or meal. I was wondering if any of you have made it and what you used to make it. I made beef pemmican, but I've heard of people using chicken, venison, etc.


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## RAF (Aug 13, 2002)

Hello,

Anyone ever try making gluten free sourdough? Well, I am starting some buckwheat sourdough starter and will let you all know how it turns out.

Brison: I didn't eat fish everyday when pregnant due to lack of quality fish available. Also mercury contamination is a real concern now and probably wasn't as big an issue when those dietary recs were written. I also second the cod liver oil rec. I took that while pregnant instead of eating fish everyday. The CLO is tested for mercury and other contaminants and is supposed to be free from contamination. Anyway, I wouldn't sweat getting every recomendation from the NT pregnancy diet down exactly. I varied quite a bit from that and still did fine.

Worldshakerz: I've made pemmican. We used grass finished beef and tallow with dried apricots, cranberries, crispy brazil nuts and crispy almonds and raw honey. It was so good. Just like candy. I have never used any other meat to make it though since I haven't had access to much else. Maybe someday soon I'll try goat pemmican.


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## fourangels (Jun 23, 2004)

Yes, we've made pemmican. Just once, years ago for a hiking trip I took with my then 11 yr old son. I loved it sooo much it was pretty much all I ate the whole trip! I'm glad you reminded me of that, I think I'll pick up some beef at the butcher on Fri and get a batch going!!
YUMMY!


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## MaryCeleste (Jun 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RAF*
Hello,

Anyone ever try making gluten free sourdough? Well, I am starting some buckwheat sourdough starter and will let you all know how it turns out.

I've used the brown rice sourdough from G.E.M. cultures. The recipes they provided (for small pancakes, and a dense bread) were very tasty. The starter was going great, for months...until I forgot about it, and it dried up.







:

Yesterday, I started two new sourdoughs: rice and oat. Our CSA box had some organic plums with a lovely bloom, so I threw them in, as per the suggestion in "Wild Fermentation." If they don't work, I'll order from G.E.M. again. (As well as the sourdough, we got their kefir and fil mjolk, both of which worked great. The kefir took a few days to recover from its journey, but it's been fine ever since, despite some terrible episodes of neglect on my part. We've even convinced FIL to try it; now he's a big fan, and is distributing his extra grains among his friends at church...brings a new meaning to the word "conversion"!







)


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## MaryCeleste (Jun 11, 2004)

When I was pg, I tried to follow a combined WAP/Brewer Diet. Due to morning sickness, though, I couldn't eat red meat, fish, green veggies, onions, or raw milk, for the first 20 weeks. (Those are usually my favorite foods.) During that time, my diet was limited to brown rice, oats, eggs, almond butter, beans, cheese, miso, umeboshi plums, orange juice, apples, and tomatoes...._liberally_ supplemented with candy, cookies, chocolate, and ice cream. It was pathetic; I had _no_ self-control with sugar.









Things did get better in the last half of my pregnancy, and DD turned out great. Still, I'm hoping to avoid a repeat performance with baby #2.

At the time, I remember being very confused by Margie Profet's book "Pregnancy Sickness", which claims that m/s is an evolutionary advantage, because meats and vegetables might contain toxins, while grains and fruits are safer. Does anyone know of any traditional societies whose customs support her thesis?

Very interested in this topic!


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## farmer mama (Mar 9, 2004)

If anyone in the Puget Sound Area are looking for a class on these types of foods, Ravencroft Garden in Startup, WA (45 min from Seattle out Hwy 2) is doing a Food camp. From their website:

Food Camp
August 15, 16 & 17
Changing ourselves & our world, one bite at a time!
Food Camp is a grassroots look at what food is & where it comes from. Learn how people the world over have allied with local micro-organisms and nature to preserve food, increase digestibility and improve nutrient uptake. Find out why these time-honored methods are being lost and how you can keep them alive!

Cheeses in the Cellar, Yogurt in the Fridge
Friday, August 15th
What magic turns milk to cheese, yogurt, keifer and buttermilk? You will make & taste a variety of cultured milk-based foods and learn the tradition and science behind their creation. Come & meet the cultures!

Sauerkraut, Crock Pickles & Fermented Vegetables
Saturday, August 16th
Learn lactic fermentation skills for preserving vegetables, what to expect from the ferment and how to tend the crock for optimum safety. You'll create sauerkraut, dill pickles, kimchees, herbed miso, tsukemono and gain an appreciation for worldwide fermented foods. Naturally fermented dandelion leek miso for lunch!

Crafting Fermented Beverages: Wine, Beer & Soda
Sunday, August 17th
Oregon grape, elder berries, dandelion blossom, rhubarb, a little yeast, sweetener and time, and voila&#8230;.delectable, healthful beverages. We'll brew & drink Root Beer made with fresh sassafras root, maple syrup and local roots from the garden or perhaps elderflower champagne. Learn tricks and techniques that will fill your cellar with tasty beverages for the whole family!

The website is www.ravencroftgarden.com. Click on education, and then Day workshops and scroll down to Food camp for more info. I am not affiliated with them, just friend of a friend, and have never attended one of their workshops, but it sounds pretty cool.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

am making plum wine. if i never see, smell, or feel another bushel of plums in my life i will be happy. plum jam, no-sugar plum jam, plum pies...

cutting up tomatoes for drying will be like a party after all these damn plums (the principe borgheses have gone nuts!)

oh dear, i think i have left my goat kefir a little too long. perhaps it is merely cheese now. send me braveness vibes so i can rescue my kefir!

suse


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Thanks for the link for pregnant moms.

_OK, I knew about the website, but I just needed a reason to tell you all that the particular website on diets during pregnancy is suddenly relevant to me.







edd 3/6/05







_


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Congratulations, Gale Force!


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## Worldshakerz (Jun 16, 2003)

Farmer mama, those classes sound so fun. Alas, I'm here in Florida.

Fourangels, I got some Ezekial cereal today. I had like 1/3 cup of it with cream instead of milk. It was my dessert after my dinner of leftover lamb and bison.









The metabolic typing diet is going great. Since I started on Sunday, I've lost about 6 lbs.







I'm finding that I can still have some of my favorite NT carbs like oatmeal (had some for breakfast with eggs and lamb), as long as it is a small portion compared to my protiens.

And since I had lots of leftover oatmeal I made fried mush today topped with my first batch of apple butter...good stuff. Ds really liked his regular oatmeal with the apple butter instead of maple syrup today. If I wasn't on this diet my habit of using leftovers right away would have prevailed and I would have eaten fried mush and apple butter all day, lunch, snack and dinner. However, there is a bowl full in the fridge to last us for a few days.

My kombucha is almost gone and i haven't started a new batch...I'm doing it tonight. I hate it when I don't start a new batch right away...then I go a whole 8-10 day without it!

Oh yeah....I'm ordering from my co-op a 6lb eye of round steak to make pemmican. My mouth has been watering for the last few days thinking about it. I just need to find a good source of suet.


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## fourangels (Jun 23, 2004)

MMMMMM...ezekial cereal with cream! Sounds super yummy!! I ate a wonderful dinner of line caught Salmon and swiss chard then went out for an ice cream







I always crave ice cream while I am pregnant! I probably wouldn't gain more than 5 lbs if I just fought off the urge! My kids love it when I'm pregnant, they get to eat ice cream 3 times a week. My oldest (13) told me today I should have 9 kids...this is #4 and will most likely be the last


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

My raspberry drink has been in the fridge for about 10 days and is getting really nice and fizzy. Does anyone know how long this keeps? It's so good, I could see letting it cook for 10 days - 2 weeks in the fridge before drinking it. On some of her other similar drinks she mentions that they keep for months. My guess is it's not a problem.

Thanks Brisen.


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

I had to take my NT book back to the library, but I just bought a TON of beans, and I'd like to have some tomorrow for dinner. So, can anyone give me the specs for soaking beans? (eg, how long, do I rinse, etc? I need details) And secondly, does anyone have any really yummy rice and bean recipes? The more ethnic the better. Thanks!


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

As it so happens my copy is right here. It says for basic beans to soak 2 cups of beans in enuf warm water to cover plus 2tbsp of whey or lemon juice. Soak for 12 - 24 hrs depending on size of bean. Drain & rinse well. Bring to the boil & skim off the scum that rises to the top.

If you want some nice ethnic bean & rice recipes here is the url to a vegan recipe site with lots of recipes from around the world.

http://www.ivu.org/recipes/regions.html


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Congrats, Gale Force! I am so happy to see so many mamas who are going through/have already gone through pregnancies eating a traditional diet!









I have an addition to the book list: The Permaculture Book of Ferment & Human Nutrition, by Bill Mollison. Absolutely great book.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...07335?v=glance


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *toraji*
Congrats, Gale Force! I am so happy to see so many mamas who are going through/have already gone through pregnancies eating a traditional diet!









Thanks toraji!

You know, I found this diet after severe fatigue and depression in my first pregnancy followed by severe PPD. I worked with some docs to find the underlying cause. Take 10 guesses. Actually, you could guess in fewer. I was a vegan for 4 years before I was pg and had little animal fat in my life leading up to that vegan diet. And I wasn't a chips and crackers vegetarian as some of my friends were, but ate almost all whole foods. My amino acid levels were "some of the worst" the clinician had ever seen (it was a national lab at that). "No wonder she has depression." I've been on a good path diet-wise for 18 months and have supplemented my amino acids as well. It's made all the difference. I am just over 5 weeks now, but I am already feeling much better than the first time around -- the fatigue actually hit that quickly. So, I am pretty excited about the change and I am grateful that I have found a sustainable lifestyle to pass on to my children.


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

Oceanmama thanks! But what happens if the beans soak up all the liquid? Should I add more? Or just let it be?


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## RAF (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Persephone*
Oceanmama thanks! But what happens if the beans soak up all the liquid? Should I add more? Or just let it be?

I always add more.


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

Thanks so much! I didn't add more, but it ended up being ok. I made a bean loaf (like meat loaf, but with beans. Much better tasting than it sounds.







) And corn fritters. Today, we had rice and bean burritos with homemade tortillas (because they taste better, and the ones in the store make me sick.) and Mexican style corn. The beans today were leftovers from yesterday. I'm really proud of myself.







(Then my dad took us out for dessert, and I had a decadent chocolate cake.







)

Oh, btw, if you ever get gas, have some fennel seeds. I had very painful gas from the beans last night (confused me, because I thought the soaking was supposed to help with that) but the fennel took it away almost immediately. I had some peppermint tea too, so that might have helped.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

After soaking the beans did you rinse with clean water and then cook in clean water?

wash the beans
soak the beans in purified water for at least 8 hours
rinse the beans
cook the beans in clean water

Hope that helps...we eat alot of beans here...the cycle of soak/rinse/cook/ or sprout is always happening.


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

Sure did! I soaked them for almost 24 hours, some of them had sprouted, but most of them hadn't. Then I rinsed them well, and cooked them in fresh water.


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## yitlan (Dec 8, 2001)

hmmm...did you perhaps have a LOT of beans after going awhile without eating them much? That can sometimes "jolt" your system.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

fermenting them kept down the farts, but gave them a real kraut-y taste.

btw, persephone, did you use masa or make wheat flour ones? i have started making masa ones after years of being too chicken to make anything but flour, & with the tortilla maker i just got it is so much easier than i thought it would be (but practise definately helps!) i'd like to be able to make low-carb ones, kind of ot, if anyone has any ideas btw. i'm not a huge soy flour fan, but dh...

suse


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

What kind of beans were they? Sometimes the bigger beans are harder to digest. Also food combining with beans is important. Usually avoiding having dairy with beans helps to eliminate flatulence.

Some people just have a hard time digesting the beans no matter, in that case one could take a veg source digestive enyzme to help or eat some alfalfa sprouts with the meal.

Meadowsweet is a great herb to aid digestion. Along with fennel, peppermint and apple cidar vinegar.


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

They were pinto beans, and yes, I haven't eaten beans in a loooong time other than lentils. I have never liked the texture. There was a very small amount of cheese in the loaf, but I honestly don't think that had anything to do with it. Anyhow, the fennel really took care of it, and when I had them the second day, I had no problems.

As for my tortillas, they were made with regular white self rising flour. I usually use whole wheat flour, but we're pretty much out of it, and this is something dh bought before we got married, and we're too poor to buy more flour right now, so I'm using it. I would like to try with whole wheat flour when I have more, though. There's something in store bought bread products (tortillas, pita bread, and esp. Boboli pizza crusts) that makes me sick when I eat it. I get nauseous and headachey. It lasts for a short time, but obviously there's something bad in them. I make all my own bread products now.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

i always liked epazote in my beans for those reasons (and taste) as well.

suse

ps, alfalfa sprouts- what was it sf said about them? some toxin? (i don't have the book right now.)


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## Wildcrafter (Mar 11, 2003)

Just popping in....I tried the NT roasted chicken recipe and it is to die for. Easy, quick and awesome.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gale Force*
So, I am pretty excited about the change and I am grateful that I have found a sustainable lifestyle to pass on to my children.

Me too, Gale Force, me too.







Your experience sounds similar to mine. Sometimes I feel like crying thinking about how I shortchanged my dd's nutrition, especially seeing studies that link fish consumption in pregnancy to children with better language and communication skills (I'm assuming because of the DHA/EPA in fish). http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/...?oneclick=true I never took any EFA supplements during my pregnancy/early lactation b/c I didn't know how important they were.

And while my dd seems pretty healthy other than the tooth decay and eczema, hit all her developmental marks at the right times and seems pretty perky mentally, the fact is that she could have been better off and it was my ignorance that caused it.







I'm still working through my major mama guilt on this. Sorry to bring y'all down.


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## fourangels (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *toraji*
Me too, Gale Force, me too.







Your experience sounds similar to mine. Sometimes I feel like crying thinking about how I shortchanged my dd's nutrition, especially seeing studies that link fish consumption in pregnancy to children with better language and communication skills (I'm assuming because of the DHA/EPA in fish). http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/...?oneclick=true I never took any EFA supplements during my pregnancy/early lactation b/c I didn't know how important they were.

And while my dd seems pretty healthy other than the tooth decay and eczema, hit all her developmental marks at the right times and seems pretty perky mentally, the fact is that she could have been better off and it was my ignorance that caused it.







I'm still working through my major mama guilt on this. Sorry to bring y'all down.


Oh, please work on letting go of that mama guilt! We have enough of what I call "guiltmones" without you holding onto that. I have 3 children and am pregnant with our 4th. For the first two I ate a standard american diet, complete with fast food on a regular basis. These last 2 I've followed a NT diet. My 1st 2 children are smart as whips! DD spoke in complete sentences and was telling us coherent stories at the age of 1! They are fine. It is our bodies that suffer from a lacking diet. Our babies get all they need!
With care,
Angel


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Angel, thank you for that. I am feeling much better today.


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## morsan (Jul 24, 2002)




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## morsan (Jul 24, 2002)

Hugs to you toraji.

Does anyone get mail-order beef and especially beef bones in the PNW area? I checked the eatwild website and there was nothing in my area







I'm going to ask around a little more and see what I can find, but in the meantime I wouldn't mind getting good stuff through the mail. I sooo need my broth, seems like I can't make anything without it.
For those of you who get local meat and dairy, how did you go about finding it? Any other websites?

Josefina.


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## fourangels (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *morsan*
Hugs to you toraji.

Does anyone get mail-order beef and especially beef bones in the PNW area? I checked the eatwild website and there was nothing in my area







I'm going to ask around a little more and see what I can find, but in the meantime I wouldn't mind getting good stuff through the mail. I sooo need my broth, seems like I can't make anything without it.
For those of you who get local meat and dairy, how did you go about finding it? Any other websites?

Josefina.


Hi Josefina~ Try calling butchers in your area. Look in the yellow pages. You may find one that raises their own stuff the old fashion way? We have one (an hour away now that we moved







: ) that has grass fed beef. They aren't organic, but they don't use antibiotics, hormones or spray the grass! Another avenue would be to ask at your local hfs, they will sometimes know of farms that raise their own stuff. Good luck! I also can't live without my broth!
Angel


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Yeah, toraji, I feel guilty too at times, but I am very grateful that I found out about all of this when I did. That's the "spin" on my depression -- without it, we'd all still be vegetarians.


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## xenomama (Jul 15, 2003)

Found my "dealer" through my WPF site. :LOL They also sell at a local farmer's market.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Well, I made another batch of the raspberry drink and left it out for two days without checking it. By the time I got to it, it had a bunch of mold on top. I guess 100 degrees is a bit warm. MY beet kvass also developed some moldy spots.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

morsan, try http://www.localharvest.org

also try local farmer's markets, and the Ashland Food Cooperative. The coop may have a local bulletin board that people post food stuff for sale. Heck, they may even sell pastured products!


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

yay! been on the (always long) waiting list at my library for nt, & it is mine again! (for 4 weeks, lol.) always good to refresh, i was thinking about that beet kvass (i love beets.)

suse

about to delve into about TWENTY POUNDS of apples from my trees to make apple butter; darn that i don't have a press or juicer to make cider instead! after all those plums! at least i didn't have to PEEL them!


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

I need some meat roasting







I have no idea how to roast a bit of animal, other than to keep an eye on it the whole time. I am going out tomorrow afternoon to the hair dresser. It usually turns into a long trip as my hair is long & take ages to do anything to. I've got a 3lb or so leg of lamb I need to roast for dh & the kids whilst I am gone. I also need to get the veges roasted at the same time as I'll be home pretty much in time for dinner. Now if it was a nut roast I'd be sweet. I would just leave everything on real low so it cooks in the middle & then turn it up to brown when I get home. Problem is I am not sure about the meat at all if I try that approach. Nut roast does not need cooking in the same way as meat does.

Any ideas or suggestions? We've got potatoes, yams, kumara & pumpkin & possibly some parsnips to roast with it.

I have managed to get myself a dehydrator. I am picking it up this weekend. I am going to try making some crispy nuts & also some pemican with it when I get it. Anyone make pemican ? I figure it would be good to send with dd to kindegarten for her lunch.

I tried some soy milk this week for the first time in 10 months probably as the farm I get my milk from has stopped milking for the next 2 months. Euww!!!! I cannot believe I used to live off that stuff. Yikes it is so sweet & just funny tasting.

Suse I've ordered an 18kg box of apples from an organic orchard up North. We usually get thru them way too quickly to have to make butter or preserve them in anyway. Especially as it is now the dead of winter here & there's not much decent organic fruit around anymore.


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## xenomama (Jul 15, 2003)

Hey, just noticed something. NTs typically need a lot of "equipment". Cast iron, dehydrators, glassware, etc. Just wanted to suggest that y'all check out www.freecycle.org. You can give & receive...


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## Valerie.Qc (Nov 19, 2001)

I've been lurking and learning a lot for some times now and I think it's time for me to get in









I haven't read the book, Nourishing Traditions, because I couldn't find it - but I just saw few minutes ago that Amazon.ca finally have it!!! It's gonna be my next purchase









I have a question for you: would you ask for the bones if you had a deer or another big animal from hunting? I know I will ask for the bones if we buy a beef but i'm not sure about wild animals...

Another question: I've read about saurkraut done on the counter and would like to give it a try but I don't know what type of countainer to use. Is there something special to use? can you show me what it looks like?

Ok, enough for this time


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## yitlan (Dec 8, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tomsgirl*
Hey, just noticed something. NTs typically need a lot of "equipment". Cast iron, dehydrators, glassware, etc. Just wanted to suggest that y'all check out www.freecycle.org. You can give & receive...









Love FreeCycle! Haven't done any giving or receiving, but I keep my eye on it! Such a great idea.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Another freecycle lover here too....I just recieved a box of Mother Earth News mags from the mid seventies to mid eighties.

There even is a plowboy interview with Peggy O'Mara in one!


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## moss (Feb 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Valérie.Qc*
I have a question for you: would you ask for the bones if you had a deer or another big animal from hunting? I know I will ask for the bones if we buy a beef but i'm not sure about wild animals...


yes, definitely

one thing that i might do, if i could figure out the how/where/cost of it, would be to have big game tested for that weird neurological disease.

now... if only i could get dh to go out bow hunting.


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## fourangels (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tomsgirl*
Hey, just noticed something. NTs typically need a lot of "equipment". Cast iron, dehydrators, glassware, etc. Just wanted to suggest that y'all check out www.freecycle.org. You can give & receive...









I watch freecycle too! Yard sales are also a great place to find these things! I see cast iron all the time, we have enough already though!
Angel


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## fourangels (Jun 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Valérie.Qc*
I have a question for you: would you ask for the bones if you had a deer or another big animal from hunting? I know I will ask for the bones if we buy a beef but i'm not sure about wild animals...

Another question: I've read about saurkraut done on the counter and would like to give it a try but I don't know what type of countainer to use. Is there something special to use? can you show me what it looks like?

Ok, enough for this time









I wouldn't hesitate to use the bones of venison for broth. Unless someone knows a reason you couldn't?? I've made duck broth before that was wonderful!

I've made saurkraut in a glass jar with a seal. It worked fine. You could use a ceramic crock or even make a small batch in a mason jar. A good book is Wild Fermentation. I'm reading it now. Here is a link to the site
http://www.wildfermentation.com/

Good luck!
Angel


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

Thanks for the link on wild fermentation. I am looking forward to checking that site out more closely.

I have a question. I want to make granola. And I want to soak the oats beforehand. Is that possible? How would I go about doing that? And would it make good granola? Should I sprout them? Can I even do that? What's the difference between soaking and sprouting?


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## Valerie.Qc (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourangels*
I've made saurkraut in a glass jar with a seal. It worked fine. You could use a ceramic crock or even make a small batch in a mason jar. A good book is Wild Fermentation. I'm reading it now. Here is a link to the site
http://www.wildfermentation.com/

Good luck!
Angel

Thank you!

I went to this site and saw the crock they used; I'm pretty sure I've seen something like that at the fleamarket - will look for this tomorrow









I will probably wait to do the sauerkraut until the weather cool down a little and hope for less humidity; it's so humid right now that my cucumbers are rotting before they are fully grown


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Persephone*
What's the difference between soaking and sprouting?

Soaking means just that, it is soaked in water/whey/whatever. If you want to sprout the grain/seed, you would soak first, then drain well, then rinse and drain 1-2x a day until you see little tails coming out of the seed. Then it is officially sprouted.

I am pm'ing you a recipe for a granola soaked in kefir/yogurt and dehydrated from the nativefamilynutrition yahoo group. I can send it to anyone else interested as well, or if you are a member of that group it is message #2165.


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## xenomama (Jul 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Valérie.Qc*
I've been lurking and learning a lot for some times now and I think it's time for me to get in









I haven't read the book, Nourishing Traditions, because I couldn't find it - but I just saw few minutes ago that Amazon.ca finally have it!!! It's gonna be my next purchase









I have a question for you: would you ask for the bones if you had a deer or another big animal from hunting? I know I will ask for the bones if we buy a beef but i'm not sure about wild animals...

Another question: I've read about saurkraut done on the counter and would like to give it a try but I don't know what type of countainer to use. Is there something special to use? can you show me what it looks like?

Ok, enough for this time









Does www.overstock.com ship to Canada? It's $16 US, including shipping.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Has anyone looked at the Garden of Eating book? It looks really cool! LaLa posted the link to it a while back. It looks like a paleo-type diet except with LOADS of produce. Just my style!
http://thegardenofeatingdiet.com/

I'm going dairy-free at the moment to see if it helps with my hayfever. We just butchered our first chicken and it was one of the most traumatic things I've experienced in a while. Now we are inundated with chicken stock, over 2 gallons! We turned the edible innards into sausage which worked really well.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

yeah, i never had much of a craving for any chicken i've butchered myself. if it was a necessity i'd get over it but hell, i like my chickens (when i have some) & the eggs are a good enough bargain- i eat chickens that are strangers to me, lol.

glad your sausage turned out, got a recipe?

i'm not sure how long i'm going to continue dairy-free with sam- his skin got bad again, and next week at the dr i'm going to suggest allergy testing. i mean, what if all this time he's had a problem with soy? or corn? argh.

i think i'm gonna do bread, with all these great beefsteak tomatoes around. thankfully i livelied up my sourdough a few days ago. (and my kefir lived well in the goat milk, even forgotten for a month!) and homemade walnut oil mayo. (oh man, i forgot to order good eggs! ****ok, i just did it, aracauna eggs of green & blue! and raw goat's milk, & pastured fresh buffalo, yeah! to my door tomorrow afternoon!)

suse


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Hey Toraji, ok, found this link! Sorry I must have missed it in the clamor of trying to read/post/deal with the kids









Suseyblue, you mentioned your Ds might be allergic to soy and corn? They are both 'problem' products unless treated 'special'. Here is some info on soy:

Avoid soy flour. Soy contains a high phytate content as well as potent enzyme inhibitors (enzymes help you to digest food, you eat strong inhibitors, you've just compromised your digestion). These inhibitors are NOT neutralized by mere soaking. They must be inactivated by slow fermentation, like in the making of traditional fermented products like, natto, miso or tempeh. The antinutrients in modern soy products and soy flour can inhibit growth and cause intestional problems, swelling of the pancreas and some believe, cancer. In addition, soy contains a high omega 3 content (good), but that quickly goes rancid (bad) when the bean is made into flour. The phytoestrogens in soy have been promoted as being a 'wonder food', but they are actually goitrogens that depress your thyroid function.

Corn flour is bad (BAD) for you if you don't pre-soak it in a limewater solution to free up the nicotinamide (B3 vitamin). Soaking corn flour also improved the amino acid quality of proteins in the germ. It used to cause a disease called 'Pellagra' (sore skin and disorders, fatigue and mental disorders). Simple soaking prevented this problem. If you are buying 'Masa' flour, it's already been treated, however, it's probably going rancid or heading that way.







: All 'whole grain' flours should be IMMEDIATELY refridgerated or frozen to preserve the natural oils in them. (Wish the stores would catch on to this and get with it).

Here is how to make 'limewater', for soaking CORN FLOUR if you are making your own:

*LIMEWATER SOAK SOLUTION*
In a two quart jar (sun tea jar works fine),
add about 1 inch of 'pickling lime'.
Fill rest of jar with filtered water.
Seal, shake, and let sit overnight.
The powder will settle (don't use this part).
Gently pour off the water to use for soaking fresh ground corn flour.
This is your 'limewater'.
Keep in a cool place, but no need to refridgerate.

OK, I promised I would post some more recipes on 'Good Eats with Wheat' thread, though I will be posting with various grains. /sigh I got several threads going now to read







heheh...Sorry if this was posted somewhere in here, tried to 'speed read' it while BFing baby, and he was TEETHING on me!! So kinda distracting







hahah, to say the lest.

/hugs

Heather (Xenabyte)

Great thread, btw!


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

it's an allergy thing i am worried about, with his excema; but thanks for posting the reminders (esp the limewater; my 'wild fermentations' is due at the library soon!)

i am making menudo & tacos tonight & getting into the masa, for sure (such a convenience, the nixtamalized- that's the word, right? corn.)

suse

ps anybody else seen a cilantro shortage? mine has all bolted & i had to go to 3 stores to find some! (and it looks pretty ragged.) where is all the cilantro? is there a plague?


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Toraji! You a brave woman!

Ugh, I STILL remember 'chicken killing day' at the old farmstead. I hated that...and especially the 'plucking'. I think we gave our mom gray hairs! She spent good money to get chickens for us to have for our dinner table, then none of us kids would eat any of our 'pets'! (we'd raised many of them from 'egg' with a little hatchery set up. We DID love the fresh eggs, though. So she got a clue (after our first traumatic chicken killing event) and we just raised them for eggs!









Suseyblue,

You making me hungry! I guess I need to whip up some tortillas myself. Black beans sound good to me today! Hope the allergies aren't too bad. I put calendula cream (made by Weleda) on my hubby's 'dry patches' and it really seems to help. Also, do you give you son flax seed oil or some other EFA suppliment?

Heather (Xenabyte)


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Someone mentioned alfalfa sprouts a bit back. Here is why alfalfa sprouts might not be the best thing to eat, at lease not in quantity:

They contain an amino acid called, canavanine that can be toxic to humans and animals when eaten in large quantities. These sprouts inhibit the immune system and contribute to inflammatory arthritis and lupus. The mature plant uses up the canavanine, so you could just eat the mature plant, I guess with safety (like most grazing animals do).

Another food favorite 'bites the dust'....

Heather (Xenabyte)


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

that was the info, thanks!

i have tried borage oil externally, & taken enough flax, fish oil & evening primrose personally to up the levels in my milk, but haven't given it to him directly (maybe i'll whip some flax oil into his vegan 'butter', since i haven't given up on the dairy elim yet.)

but... i got the eggs & goat milk, & OMG OMG OMG the goat milk is so pure & fresh & good, & barely goaty! it is by FAR the cleanest, tastiest goat milk i have EVER tasted. i *love* it. 8 bucks a gallon, & the HUGE blue & green aracauna eggs (beyond jumbo!) a buck & a half a dozen! (the fresh local buffalo won't come till next week.) DELIVERED! i am in raw milk & good egg ecstasy. the quality is superb. i am doubling my order of milk next week.

i am gonna turn goat lady on to kefir, mine has finally grown enough to share a bit









suse


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

/bahhh hahhhhhh









I want some big blue eggs! and Fresh Goat milk!!!

Is that a local only thing, or do they ship ????

I've been buying my Kefir from Whole Foods Market, would LOVE to get some kefir grains! I have tried some goat cheese and really liked it!

I'm in Colorado, near Colorado Springs....do you think they can air mail eggs? I doubt they can do it for the fresh milk though









I get good eggs from the health food store, but they are NOTHING like we had on the farm!

Heather (Xenabyte)


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

hmmmn, i am sure she wouldn't ship, but it did take a few years of earnest & diligent yapping to everyone i meet to track this lady down; there's got to be somebody with extra eggs near you, somewhere closer than tn! (man, i passed thru some beautiful ranch country last time i was in colo.)

(yes, i get the hint, lol, i've got enough for you & goat lady- pm me your name & addy & i'll send you some for the actual cost of shipping, just paypal it or mail me a check, 'k? it's gonna be a SMALL amount tho', but it's tough & will do the job. someone from here who shall be nameless sent me some the same way- my kefir fairy, lol. it may take me a few days to get to the po tho'.)


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

suse, I just made up the recipe for the chicken sausage. Threw the edible innards into the food processor minibowl, chopped it up, then added fennel seed, salt, paprika, allspice, clove, garlic, pepper, a slosh of good hot sauce, and semolina flour to dry it out (would have used breadcrumbs if I had any instead, also would have added some sage too). Then fried it up in a cast-iron skillet. We ate it with homemade sourdough pizza, it was pretty good.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

oh, that sounds delish, toraji. i'm sure semolina worked v well, reminds me of boudins rouge with their rice & *blood* (yumyumyum!)

suse

ps crabcake stuffing in zucchini rampicante shells, served with walnut oil/lemon/ tarragon mayonnaise***salad of baby spinach, radicchio, purslane, tomato, goat cheese, with bacon dressing. a simple meal tonight







ok, i got crazy. (yes, the breadcrumbs in the crab were nt sourdough & cornbread. cracklin' cornbread.)


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## fourangels (Jun 23, 2004)

ps crabcake stuffing in zucchini rampicante shells, served with walnut oil/lemon/ tarragon mayonnaise***salad of baby spinach, radicchio, purslane, tomato, goat cheese, with bacon dressing. a simple meal tonight







ok, i got crazy. (yes, the breadcrumbs in the crab were nt sourdough & cornbread. cracklin' cornbread.)[/QUOTE]

Ummm....excuse me, if you don't have enough to share with everyone then you should not be bringing this up!







That sounds exquisite! Wish I was there









I just ate bacon, egg and cheese on an english muffin. No nitrate, grass fed bacon, with free range eggs from our local farm, raw jack cheese and a whole wheat english muffin, yum, but nothing like the yummyness you are describing!


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## goatlady (Apr 25, 2004)

Toraji - I have a billion questions for you! You're doing what I hope to be doing very soon. How many chickens are you raising? And do you feed them soy? I sooo want to raise goats and chickens!!!







Also, would you mind posting the sourdough pizza recipe if it's not too much trouble please! Is your starter just whole grain flour and water or did you add wild yeast? OKay, that's all my questions for now!!


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

aah, you all are making me drool with the food descriptions!

goatlady, right now we have 3 layers (barred rock and black australorp) but only one is laying currently. One of the others is a mama right now (10 chicks!) and the other I think is just a bum hen. Then we have the 10 chicks mentioned earlier, plus 4 extra chicks that we hatched ourselves from the same batch of eggs (some are mixed black australorp and barred rock, some are pure barred rock), 5 cornish crosses (meat birds), 2 female fawn runner ducks, and 2 toulouse geese (a breeding pair). We have a bunch of land fenced off for all the fowl so that they have constant access to pasture. We really notice a difference in the eggs!

We are giving them organic chicken feed, so there is some soy in there. My main deal is to give them as much pasture as possible so that they don't eat as much feed. We don't like being reliant on commercial feed, organic or not. That is why we have the geese, we are hoping to have them for meat next year and rely less on the chickens because geese can grow just fine solely on pasture.

I'll get back to this thread with the sourdough recipe...DH is the bread baker in the family so I'll bug him for that.


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## goatlady (Apr 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *toraji*
I'll get back to this thread with the sourdough recipe...DH is the bread baker in the family so I'll bug him for that.

I know. I printed off the working stiff bread recipe from HA a while ago!!









Thanks for the info on chickens and such. I can't wait to be a food growing mama!


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

goatlady, are you talking about MG? I can't remember if I posted the recipe to HA before it blew up! What's your username there? I love MG, it's my favorite little hidey hole.

That's the recipe that we used for the pizza! We just do our basic bread dough except instead of forming a loaf, we just roll it out, put it on a pizza pan, and top with tomato sauce and every veggie we can get a hold of that sounds good. Usually it's onion, broccoli, eggplant, and peppers. We don't do any cheese in the oven since we are raw dairy fanatics, though one time we had some raw goat cheese that we put on our individual slices. Tasty!

xenabyte posted some really good looking recipes on her "Good Eats with wheat" thread that you may want to check out!

Food growing is so fulfilling. I totally love being here on this land. The day that we did the chicken we made soup, and it was an amazing feeling knowing that everything in the soup pot except for the carrots, salt and pepper was home-grown.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

lol, carrots are a bitch, aren't they? i'd have better luck extracting salt from my soil. (i'm trying again, wish me luck! friggin' clay!)

suse


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

the nice thing about farm fresh aracauna eggs: i could serve my 'sam i am' green eggs & ham for breakfast, lol. (the blue ones are gorgeous, too. when i get chickens again i will definately want some aracaunas.)

suse


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## xenomama (Jul 15, 2003)

Can anyone point me to some good sites that deal with raising chickens on a homestead level. I mean, how do I find out if it's even legal to have them? How much space do they need, etc? You guys got me interested now!


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## moss (Feb 7, 2004)

http://www.pathtofreedom.com/pathpro...chickens.shtml

i like looking around this site. they do urban chickens!







we're not even allowed to have a cat where i live, so i think poultry's probably out for us right now.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

How about goats? Does anyone raise goats, have goats and/or milk their goats? Do you know a good link to some good information on milking goats, raising goats and the types of goats that there are.

Thanks!


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Here's a good link about raising goats:
http://fiascofarm.com/goats/

My friend is raising nubians and pygmys, and the lady that I get my goat milk from raises oberhaslis. They are gorgeous (the oberhaslis), mild mannered, and look like little deer in their pasture.


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

Hi all! I'm so glad you all are here, I've been learning so much from you! I have another question now:

If you could only pick one thing, dietary wise, to change, what would it be?

I'm slowly changing our diet around for the better, and I just don't know where to go from here. I have begun to make our own bread, and we eat more (soaked) beans, but that's all right now. What should my next step be?


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Persephone,

How about some nice sprouts? Or some yogurt, kefir or lacto fermented foods?


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

The one thing I would pick is to avoid all hydrogenated fats. You could also cut out homogonised milk & substitute it for whole milk. Or whole raw milk if you can get it.

In terms of making stuff, one easy thing to do is to lacto-ferment oatmeal for breakfast. You can make kefir or yoghurt & use some of that. Or let it overdo to get some whey. Then all you do is soak your oatmeal in a tbsp or so of either yoghurt or whey overnight. I put it out to soak every night when I am doing the dinner dishes. In the morning, I swoosh in the blender & cook with some grated nutmeg. When it is done, I stir in some butter & pour on top some maple syrup.


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## morsan (Jul 24, 2002)

Hi again.

I'd like to keep up with this thread more regularly. I only go online on weekends (I use my "landlords"'s computer while they're away selling their crafts), bummer. So, dh and I are getting excited about making our own beer, any good recipes or tips? A frined of mine asked if I had a honey mead recipe, anyone? I remember a while back some of you were discussing beer and mead brewing.

Yes, I found some pasture-raised beef in Ashland and I should be able to get bones from them as well. In the meantime I bought some free-range chicken and made delicious stock. We served the meat with curry sauce from NT--it tasted great, along with fried rice (from NT as well). Everyone loved it.
And I finally got around to making whey, and grape cooler (love it). It's been so hot here (yesterday it was 111) but the cultures did alright. I get so carried away in the kitchen once I start making one of those wonderful recipes in NT and so yesterday I came down with a cold. I'm exhausted. I guess I should be taking it easier in this hot weather.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

hey, morsan! good to see ya!

i've got 'making wild wines & meads', vargas/gulling, & 'more homebrew favorites', lutzen/stevens, right now, & am not really impressed with the first much- VERY additive promoting, by the book etc. we'll see how my plum wine turns out with my more lackadaisical methods, lol. (i still haven't bottled my mead! i really must get to it, but dh is at end of quarter & it is definately a two-person job.) i like the beer book- also very chemical-precise measurement oriented, but it is more of a guide & can give great advice & ideas. i'm thinking up my next batch, i'm about halfway thru the barney (wild blueberry purple) ale. i thought i'd never drink it all! even one every few days goes thru it pretty steadily!

suse


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

We've got chickens for eggs and are working on building an area for meat chickens or ducks. So far, we've fenced an area in (the area will also be planted with fruit trees this winter) and next we will build a little structure for them. It is designed so that there are two distinct sections of area for them to roam. The house will have a door on each end so that we can let them out on either side of the pasture area. We'll be able to plant one area for them as they are using the other. I hope that makes sense. We considered allowing them to free range but we are on a hill and they tear up the area pretty badly with their scratching. We'd end up with an erosion problem. The egg chickens have a house and yard but we let them free range most of the day if we are here.

We've talked about milk goats as well, but don't feel like we can be tied down that much at this point. When the children are older and when we've got a neighbor kid or two who could milk, we may consider it. We've got the space here -- about 5 acres, though a lot of it is slope.


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Persephone*
Hi all! I'm so glad you all are here, I've been learning so much from you! I have another question now:

If you could only pick one thing, dietary wise, to change, what would it be?

I'm slowly changing our diet around for the better, and I just don't know where to go from here. I have begun to make our own bread, and we eat more (soaked) beans, but that's all right now. What should my next step be?

My personal next step would be to make sure that any animal products that I consume are of the highest quality, only grassfed, organic, and raw (dairy). Also, kicking out any packaged/processed foods and using only good fats like olive, coconut etc.

Hi Morsan!


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## xenomama (Jul 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Persephone*
Hi all! I'm so glad you all are here, I've been learning so much from you! I have another question now:

If you could only pick one thing, dietary wise, to change, what would it be?

I'm slowly changing our diet around for the better, and I just don't know where to go from here. I have begun to make our own bread, and we eat more (soaked) beans, but that's all right now. What should my next step be?

Well, on a good day, this is what we're doing:

- No frozen, canned, or packaged food
- Bread made from freshly ground grain
- Eliminated "icky" fats and switched to lard & coconut oil
- Use no processed sugar, mostly Rapadura, honey, or stevia instead
- About 2 cups of Kombucha daily
- Free range, fresh, local, organic everything
- All dairy is from real milk

We need to work on:
- Our cravings (and cavings) for sugar/ white stuff (This would be our "one thing")
- Soda & caffeine consumption
- More fermented goodies
- Actually reading NT, etc :LOL


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

Wow, are any of you guys on a budget? I went to the health food store today, and was so excited to see raw milk cheese there, and organic chicken, but it's SO expensive! I know this is nothing new, but seriously, I don't think we can afford it! (And this is coming from the woman with the hardcore view of "I'm willing to pay more for quality" *blush*)


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

my good local eggs are a buck and a half a dozen, and my buffalo sirloin steaks are 7 bucks a lb (as opposed to 14.99 for the nasty ones in publix.) local, local, local! 

(i'm getting a gorgeous buffalo chuck roast today to cook tonight; ideas y'all? never done one before. the only 'root' veggies i have on hand is a lone kohlrabi in the garden.)

suse

suse


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## yitlan (Dec 8, 2001)

Budget: I buy in bulk when organic meat is on sale and freeze. I also just bought a bunch of organic berries to make the syrup from. I also know someone getting a grass fed cow. I'm going in for 1/8th of it and sharing it with a friend.
We don't eat meat every day. Grains are not very expensive. Butter can be frozen, as can cheese. So I sometimes buy in bulk and freeze.
I've never had excess goat's milk, but hear it freezes much better than cow's.
I know most of this relies on a freezer! But even before I got mine (a few months back), I would just stuff my little freezer. There's much more room when it's not holding ice cream and convenience foods!


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

My freezer is full to the brim right now with bulk whole wheat flour, bulk oats, bulk frozen veggies, chicken bought on sale, and frozen berries. There's no sweets in there at all, no boxed meals. I live in a one bedroom apt. I can't wait for the day we move out, and I get some closet space so I can can stuff, and maybe when we get a house, I'll get a big chest freezer.


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## ericaz (Jun 10, 2003)

i just bought (finally) the wild fermentations book. i *love* it, especially the commentary. so beautifully written, particularly the end about death and composting.

what are some favorites from the book?

btw, i have successfully coordinated a pastured meat/raw dairy/organic produce co-op for my mom's group. it's a lot of hard work making sure the orders are taken and deliveries go smoothly, but soooooo worth it when other moms tell me how much their little ones LOVE raw milk after being vegetarian/vegan their whole lives.

if anyone wants some help getting a co-op started in your area, let me know!

oh, and i made a batch of beet kvass. hmm, hard to swallow, IMO. anyone drink it often? how can i make it more palatable? or maybe just use it in a viniagrette recipe?


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## morsan (Jul 24, 2002)

I just love buffalo stews and roasts. I made a stew once with one kind of root (which can be potatoes or carrots, doesn't have to be winter veggies), and added some cranberries and maple syrup. I bet blueberries would taste good too.

thanks for the book tips suseyblue. So what kind of chemicals did you add to your homebrews? I don't like the thought of additives at all.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

uh, none. no irish moss, no clarifiers, no sulfates, etc (i guess you could consider hops an additive, according to the beer purity laws of long ago- it IS a preservative! ps is hops single or plural, like grits? you know, 'grits is...' rather than 'grits are...' :LOL)

suse


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## xenomama (Jul 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Persephone*
Wow, are any of you guys on a budget? I went to the health food store today, and was so excited to see raw milk cheese there, and organic chicken, but it's SO expensive! I know this is nothing new, but seriously, I don't think we can afford it! (And this is coming from the woman with the hardcore view of "I'm willing to pay more for quality" *blush*)

I get my organic fruits & veggies at farmer's markets where they're much cheaper. I buy grains in bulk. I am part of a coop for dairy & pork, and that stuff ain't cheap. Our beef is pretty cheap, and there are price breaks for bulk. That is the key. Try to find a local coop, or start one!


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## toraji (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Persephone*
Wow, are any of you guys on a budget? I went to the health food store today, and was so excited to see raw milk cheese there, and organic chicken, but it's SO expensive! I know this is nothing new, but seriously, I don't think we can afford it! (And this is coming from the woman with the hardcore view of "I'm willing to pay more for quality" *blush*)

We actually only consume a minimum of animal products (most days are vegetarian), and either grow it ourselves (poultry) or get it directly from the farmer. We get raw goat milk from a local family that breeds goats for $5/gallon which we turn into yogurt and cheese. And with our first chicken that we butchered over a week ago we are still eating off of (meat and stock in the freezer, we got over 2 gallons of stock from the one bird!). Our biggest expense by far is organic produce. We started our veggie garden mostly for economical reasons.

We seem to be doing fine with less animal products, but it depends on the individual. My sister does better with 2 servings of meat a day, whereas my family only does one (no more than 1/4 lb per person, usually less).

suse, lol! I just caught the carrot remark. They are indeed a PITA to grow though I'm crossing my fingers this time around. Celery too.


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## xenabyte (Jul 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Persephone*
My freezer is full to the brim right now with bulk whole wheat flour, bulk oats, bulk frozen veggies, chicken bought on sale, and frozen berries. There's no sweets in there at all, no boxed meals. I live in a one bedroom apt. I can't wait for the day we move out, and I get some closet space so I can can stuff, and maybe when we get a house, I'll get a big chest freezer.

OMG, I know how that is. We lived in a TINY crappy apartment saving money for a 'house' move. I had my coat closet filled to the brim with buckets and bags and all kinds of stuff, and every inch of cabinet space contained containers of some kind of whole grain product. I even kept only enough clothing for us 'out' to wear for three days, and used THAT extra space to store food stuffs. (I hated washing clothes every day, but got by ok).

Good luck on your potential move. I'm in 'storage space' heaven now.


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## Valerie.Qc (Nov 19, 2001)

Received Nourishing Traditions and Wild Fermentation today!









Won't have much time to read this week-end but I'll try to find something in there that I can do with things I already have at home!









I'm so excited!







:


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