# Deep end of the pool swim test



## Pumpkin_Pie (Oct 10, 2006)

DS took a swim test to swim in the deep end of our local pool today. He had to swim the length of pool, which he breezed through, and then tread water for a minute without going under. At the end of the minute treading water, he stuck his face in for a second. He had goggles on, which he usually doesn't use. He literally just put his face in for fun, and came up giggling about looking under the water. The lifeguard FLUNKED him and said he could try again on another day by doing the entire test over.









My inner mama bear is wondering if anyone else think the lifeguard was a little too harsh on a THREE year old??

Oh, and FTR, he has been swimming the length of the pool EASILY since March. The new "test" was just started in the past few days and kids get a bracelet to show that they have passed the test.


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## hotmamacita (Sep 25, 2002)

Not to sound rude but.... he is 3. Why does he have to do that test?


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## daisymama12 (Jul 2, 2006)

I have those protective reactions when I feel others are underestimating my DC, too, but in this case, I think the lifeguard did the right thing.

They may have misunderstood the face in the water, and are trying to stick by the rules, as they should.
I have so much respect for lifeguards - it's a huge responsibility for a young person. They should err on the side of safety, every time.


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## Kristine233 (Jul 15, 2003)

Your son probably has no problems but the lifeguard has to follow the same rules for every person doing it. Whats "for fun" and not is subjective and other parents might argue so they do it to be fair and for safety reasons. But yay to him! That's awesome!

To the poster who asked why they do it, many pools have this test. Ours does too. At our pool for a child to swim without a flotation device (life vest or "block") they have to pass this test too. Some lifeguards or more strict than others.


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

Moving to parenting


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *daisymama12* 
I have those protective reactions when I feel others are underestimating my DC, too, but in this case, I think the lifeguard did the right thing.

They may have misunderstood the face in the water, and are trying to stick by the rules, as they should.
I have so much respect for lifeguards - it's a huge responsibility for a young person. They should err on the side of safety, every time.

I agree with this. And I actually think the fact that he's 3 (and clearly a prodigious swimmer, woo hoo) would make me stricter about following the rules of the test - because if he can't focus on the rules for one minute, it may not be the safest situation for him to be under the diving boards, etc.


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

He didn't pass the test. He put his face in the water, the test includes not putting your face in the water. He can take the test again tomorrow, no big deal.

But kudos on swimming the length of the pool!

A friend's swim club you have to swim the length of the pool 4x and tread water for 2 mins with no face in the water, so I will agree that the rules are rather abritrary in that they change from location to location.


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## Pumpkin_Pie (Oct 10, 2006)

I agree that lifeguards do have a tough job, and most of them are very young, but my only problem with it was that he has been swimming in the deep end every time we go to the pool since he could swim confidently starting this past March. He LOVES going out there. Kids are not allowed to jump in at the shallow end, and he also loves to chase me as I am swimming away from him (which I am really too tall to do in the shallow end). We generally spend 90% of our time in the deep end (which also has no diving boards) when we go swimming because the shallow end is usually jam packed with kids and the deep end is usually very quiet.

Yes, he can try again tomorrow, but it is so hard to explain to a 3 year old that he can't "play" while taking the swimming test. His entire time in the pool is play. It was just heart breaking to drag him back to the shallow end today with him crying, "Why can't we play over there Mama?? Why can't I do jumps????"









ETA: I am also not sure what they are going to do for proof once he passes either. The kids who pass all get bracelets that they wear to the pool to show that they have passed. There is no way it will fit his skinny little wrist without falling off.


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## Pumpkin_Pie (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *grisandole* 
Moving to parenting









Sorry about that, I wasn't sure where to put it.


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## baltic_ballet (May 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pumpkin_Pie* 
Yes, he can try again tomorrow, but it is so hard to explain to a 3 year old that he can't "play" while taking the swimming test. His entire time in the pool is play. It was just heart breaking to drag him back to the shallow end today with him crying, "Why can't we play over there Mama?? Why can't I do jumps????"









Perhaps its a sign if he can't understand why he can't play during the test and you had to keep dragging him back to the shallow end he's not maturely ready to swim in the deep end. Your son will have to follow rules in to protect himself and others and from what you have written above it doesn't sound like hes ready to.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Yes, at three, I think flunking him for looking under the water was harsh. It's not Navy Seal training.

They should have at least let him do the treading water test over again in the same day.


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## Pumpkin_Pie (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *baltic_ballet* 
Perhaps its a sign if he can't understand why he can't play during the test and you had to keep dragging him back to the shallow end he's not maturely ready to swim in the deep end. Your son will have to follow rules in to protect himself and others and from what you have written above it doesn't sound like hes ready to.

I only had to help him to get back to the shallow end after his test. Like I said, we usually play in the deep end for the majority of the time that we are swimming in the pool. I realize that rules have to be followed in order to stay safe, but he is three and it is hard to explain to a three year old why it isn't ok to put your face in the water during a test when most of the time I am trying to get him to put his face in while he swims anyway.

Like an above poster said, he isn't training to be a navy seal. He is simply showing the life guard that he is a strong enough swimmer to be in the deep end of a small indoor pool.

I think we may check out the lifeguard schedule and go back when a different guard is working and try again. Her comments after she "flunked" him were along the lines of "I have never seen such a little kid able to swim independently, I don't really know what to say". It really made me feel like she felt that no matter what, he had no business in the deep end.


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## Pumpkin_Pie (Oct 10, 2006)

Just wanted to add that I didn't give the guard any grief, other than asking why the sudden change in policy regarding swimming in the deep end, and also asking her if I could explain about putting his face in the water and have him do the treading water test over right there. Yes, I am irritated, but I didn't argue with her about it.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Honestly, I think that in your *specific* situation you would be better served by going in and speaking to a supervisor/manager. Just explain the situation (a VERY young, competent swimmer) and see if you can get him evaluated/passed for the summer all at once. I think most lifeguards will be very nervous passing that young of a child because of the possible repurcussions of making a wrong decision in that case.


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## Pumpkin_Pie (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2* 
Honestly, I think that in your *specific* situation you would be better served by going in and speaking to a supervisor/manager. Just explain the situation (a VERY young, competent swimmer) and see if you can get him evaluated/passed for the summer all at once. I think most lifeguards will be very nervous passing that young of a child because of the possible repurcussions of making a wrong decision in that case.

That is a great idea, thank-you! I hadn't thought of speaking to the supervisor. She did say that her manager was "cracking down" on kids in the deep end. I bet she is nervous for her job by passing him. That combined with her comment that she had never seen a child that young able to swim makes sense now that I think about it.

This is why I love MDC.


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## Pumpkin_Pie (Oct 10, 2006)

Ok, here is the email I drafted to send to the aquatics director:

Dear Aquatics Director,

I am writing regarding the new policy for testing children who swim in the deep end of the program pool. My son is very young, but a very strong swimmer, and we have regularly been swimming in the deep end of the pool since March of this year. Today I was informed that he would have to pass a test in order to be allowed in the deep end. I completely support this testing, and ensuring that children have the appropriate abilities in order to swim in deeper water.

My only concern is that my son has a hard time understanding the seriousness of this test with him being only three. He passed the test of swimming the length of the pool end to end easily, and then when he was asked to tread water for a minute, he also did so easily, but at the end of the minute, he put his face in the water because he had new goggles and wanted to look under the water. I was told that he is not allowed in the deep end again until he attempts the test again on another day.

I had never seen the guard that was on duty today, and completely understand her hesitation in passing such a young child in the swim test. I realize that his is an unusual case, and that she needs to be absolutely sure that he has the ability to swim confidently and strongly enough to be over there. I was wondering if there was any way for the life guards who do know him and have seen him swimming for hours at a time in the deep end in the past can somehow vouch for him, or if I will need to work with him on not putting his face in the water. (I have actually been working with him on learning to put his face IN the water to swim, unfortunately).

Thank-You for keeping us safe,

Pumpkin_Pie


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## dahlialia (Mar 22, 2009)

We went through things like this so many times with DD. She would go to summer camp, pass and be allowed in the deep end some days, and not others. Same when we took her to family swim. Sometimes it is hard for them to remember what they are meant to do (what tripped her up often was that they weren't meant to touch the side in between the swimming portion and the treading water portion).

For me, I resisted stepping in and addressing it. It was disappointing to DD sometimes, but with her personality I felt it was better to support her in handling the disappointment, than try to fix it for her.

Regardless, I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to work with him on the idea of treading water properly - if you practice with him, I bet he would get to understand that when he is treading water, his face is meant to always stay out of the water.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

Was the lifeguard timing the treading water? If so, and if 60 seconds had passed BEFORE he put his face in, then she had no business failing him.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

It sounds like the real problem is the new policy which they sprung on you and that the policy is set up for a very different situation than you have.

The test sounds like it was designed for older kids who would be swimming alone or with friends while their parents hang out on the side of the pool. Being in the shallow end wouldn't mean a non-swimming 3 yo could be unsupervised, since most 3 yo are still in over their heads in the shallow end (my small 4 yo is still in over his head in the shallow end.)

As a test to see if a child is ready to go into the deep end without close parental supervision I would say your DS did indeed fail. The test isn't just about swimming ability, but is also about following directions and taking the lifegaurd seriously. Playing around during the test shows that your DS isn't ready to be in over his head by himself.

However, your situation doesn't fit into what they are testing for. You do not plan to send your DS into the deep end alone. Even with your DS stucK in the shallow end he still needs supervision and unless he is unusually tall he is still in well over his head.

Though simply getting him to past the test is the simplest solution, you might talk to the people who run the pool about having a separate policy for young kids who are within arms reach of parents. My DS is not a precocious swimmer, and I take him into water up to my shoulders all the time. The difference between 3 feet of water and 4 1/2 feet of water are irrelevant for children at this stage, both are over the child's head and necessitate the parent to constantly hold the non-swimming child.

If he does pass the test, can you tie the bracelet to his swim suit? All DS's suits have ties at the waist band.


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## Pumpkin_Pie (Oct 10, 2006)

Dahlialia, I do think that working with him on treading water would be a good idea. He had never heard of the concept until yesterday. He has done it pretty regularly, just for fun, but you are right, it really would make sense to help him to understand that it is a skill, just like the other skills that we work on.

IrishMommy, I don't know if the 60 seconds had actually lapsed before he put his face in. I was in the water beside him, so am not sure exactly at what point he looked down, other than it was at the end.

Eepster, I think you are right, the test really is for older kids who are going to be in the deep end without an adult right there, although the sign that is up says that kids under 8 need an adult within arms reach. I never, ever had him out of reach over in the deep end, and never take my eyes off him. Yes, he is a very strong, solid swimmer, but he is still three.

He absolutely LOVES playing in the deep end, and it is such a fun activity for us. The shallow end is still fun for him, and it is over his head, but he can't jump from the side, and I can't actually "swim" with him, which he also loves. I sent the email last night, so we will see what the director says when she responds. I am pretty sure he is the only swimming toddler there, so they may have to come up with something a bit different for him.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *baltic_ballet* 
Perhaps its a sign if he can't understand why he can't play during the test and you had to keep dragging him back to the shallow end he's not maturely ready to swim in the deep end. Your son will have to follow rules in to protect himself and others and from what you have written above it doesn't sound like hes ready to.

Not by himself, but no one is suggesting a 3 year old should play in the water alone.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

I agree with baltic ballet... if he couldn't follow the instructions, then he shouldn't pass the test. It's a test that can be retaken... it's not like he's disallowed to swim or anything. I think it's a good lesson in listening to instructions... if you can't follow simple instructions (no face in the water), then you don't pass the test. Next time he'll follow the instructions. It's not Navy Seal training, but it's learning that if the lifeguards tell you something, you listen. That's their job. Kudos to the lifeguard for being strict. They all should be because that is what protects us and our children at the swimming pool.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I agree with baltic ballet, if your son couldn't follow direction then he doesn't need to swim in the deep in.

IMO, this should encourage him to follow directions. It might need to remind him, remember if you can't fallow the rules of the test you can't swim. Yes it is heart breaking but in a pool things are a little different. Does your son understand you have to listen to the life guard? Get out means get out?

We do swim team. We have several kids in the under six kids that are very competent swimmers. During play time during practices they are allowed to jump off the diving boards. They (we) by default know all the life guards. But I have seen them at the pool during regular pool times sitting out or not allowed in the deep end because they could not follow the rules and they have failed the swim test.


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## confustication (Mar 18, 2006)

I would not let any of my lifeguards do deep water tests on kids under 8. Any requests for early tests like that should go through the supervisor because it is not as simple (with a child that age) as passing the test. I have flunked kids who have passed technically, because I could see them struggling. It is hard to be able to read skill, comfort, and endurance in a child that young.

This is one of those situations where while you may be great and stay close to him at all times, a lot of parents are complacent, and a complacent parent coupled with a child who excels at swimming, but is still physically and emotionally a very young child is a dangerous combination.

Additionally, I have gone toe to toe with parents who insisted that their child should have passed. In one instance, the grandparent swore up and down that the child had done it for years and was a strong swimmer. He had passed the year before and had been in the deep end that year even. I also pulled him across the second half of the swim when he did tire and panic. It is not just about the child being able to swim, and sometimes it will seem unfair and arbitrary, but if the lifeguard didn't care about what was best for the kids, she/he would pass them all because it is not fun to ask them to retest.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Not by himself, but no one is suggesting a 3 year old should play in the water alone.

But the test is that he can do these things by himself. If the test wasn't for him to play in the water alone, then the test would include his mother to help him complete it. Yes... I think these tests are *exactly* that they are able to be alone in the conditions for which they are tested.


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## JERENAUD (May 21, 2005)

confustication;15634234
This is one of those situations where while you may be great and stay close to him at all times said:


> I can't imagine not being allowed to take my child into deeper water, with me or her father within arm's reach. Perhaps pools that have these tests need to have two levels; one that allows children to swim alone in the deep end and a 2nd that allows a child to *be* in the deep end, with appropriate supervision. I have seriously never heard of a child not being allowed in the deep end while with a parent.
> 
> Erica


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
I agree with baltic ballet... if he couldn't follow the instructions, then he shouldn't pass the test. It's a test that can be retaken... it's not like he's disallowed to swim or anything. I think it's a good lesson in listening to instructions... if you can't follow simple instructions (no face in the water), then you don't pass the test. Next time he'll follow the instructions. It's not Navy Seal training, but it's learning that if the lifeguards tell you something, you listen. That's their job. Kudos to the lifeguard for being strict. They all should be because that is what protects us and our children at the swimming pool.

Did the lifeguard give that instruction?


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## Pumpkin_Pie (Oct 10, 2006)

Yowza, I didn't mean for this to turn so heated. I do agree with the above poster that there should be two levels of deep end rules. One that includes a test for children to swim without a parent in the deep end, and one that keeps a parent at arms reach at all times. Maybe a swim/rescue test for the parent while the child is out there with them?

I don't really understand the "It's really no big deal" sort of comments. For him, it IS a big deal to not be able to play in the deep end. There are TONS of non-swimmers in the shallow end, and the deep end is much less congested. We actually generally work on swim skills in the deep end where he can actually concentrate and not bump into other kids who are splashing and playing. He also LOVES, freaking LOVES, LOVES, LOVES to jump into the pool from the edge. It is his absolutele hands down favorite activity at the pool. He is not allowed to do it in the shallow end, only in the deep end. If he is not allowed in the deep end, he can't jump. I know some folks think that really is no big deal, but try telling your three year old who has been jumping into the pool for nearly five months that he suddenly can't do it anymore because of an arbitrary rule change. Not fun... Yes, it is because of a safety issue, but still, how on earth would you explain it to a THREE year old?

I do agree that he is not mature enough to understand all instructions that are given to him, but he has never disobeyed a life guard's rules. He also has never disobeyed me at the pool. Yes, he does have impulse control issues at times and needs to be reminded of things, but again, he is THREE. He is also absolutely very mature in the way that he conducts himself when he is in the deep end. If he is splashing too much, I only have to remind him that he needs to keep his feet under the water, and he does so immediately. He knows that he cannot run on the deck of the pool, he makes sure noone is near him when he jumps in, he goes to the side to rest if he gets tired, he steers clear of other swimmers, etc.

Also as for the test being for him to do alone in the water, it actually wasn't. I was allowed to swim next to him and also to tread water beside him while he did so. Not because he needed help, but simply because he would feel to self conscious without me in the water with him. She did allow that, thankfully.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nextcommercial* 
Yes, at three, I think flunking him for looking under the water was harsh. It's not Navy Seal training.

They should have at least let him do the treading water test over again in the same day.

Agreed, much too harsh!


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## dawncayden (Jan 24, 2006)

The rules at the pools here are, your child needs to be within arms reach anywhere in the pool unless they are 8 and over. If they are under 8, they can pass the swimming test to be further from their parent.
I can't imagine not being aloud to be in the deep end even if you are staying close by








What you describe as the 'test', I think I would fail







I'm half joking, but it's interesting that they 'test' children but probably don't test adults and just assume they are terrific swimmers


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
But the test is that he can do these things by himself. If the test wasn't for him to play in the water alone, then the test would include his mother to help him complete it. Yes... I think these tests are *exactly* that they are able to be alone in the conditions for which they are tested.

Except that there's an theme running through this thread that putting your face in the water after treading water for however many seconds out of 60 ("near the end" could be anywhere from 40 to 60 seconds) means that it's totally irresponsible to have him swimming in the deep end at all. People are saying that having to supervise him means he shouldn't be allowed to *continue* going into the deep end with supervision. Because somehow failing this test for a petty detail like that means that he will, while still right by his mom, become a danger to himself and others.

There is no call for people to say that he shouldn't get to go BACK into the deep end with his mom because of a test that he practically passed and can be retaken anyway.

Anyway, to Pumpkin_Pie, I thought your email was excellent and I hope you get a good response from the supervisor at the pool.


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

Well, since he REALLY WANTS to swim in the deep end, I expect that today or whenever you go back, he really will keep his head above water until you tell him he can stop.

I kinda went through the same thing but my son was a young 2 year old who wanted to pass to go off the diving boards. (Please understand that they have always been raised semi-aquatic so to speak, this was not pushing his envelope skill wise and I never had them swimming at that age where I could not be at them in seconds.) And no, the first time he did the test he didn't understand that he would fail if he stopped or grabbed the lane dividers on the 25 yard swim. I felt very guilty for not explaining it to him thoroughly enough. He was very disappointed that he failed, and he cried. But the next time he was prepared and he did his 25y nonstop. The dang guard then wanted to fail him based only on age. I had a few choice words and glares at her because that was utterly ridiculous. He was passed.

On subsequent visits that week the guards wanted to re-test him, which I also strongly resisted because it was unfair (meanwhile his sister, one year older, very tall for her age was NEVER tested and he is actually the only child I have ever seen or heard of being tested per the rules on the wall). One short visit to the manager and I was assured that my son would not be bothered ever again.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pumpkin_Pie* 
He had to swim the length of pool, which he breezed through, and then tread water for a minute *without going under*.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Did the lifeguard give that instruction?

Since the OP said that the treading was without going under, then yes, it appears that the lifeguard gave them the instructions. When you go under, your face goes in the water.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
Except that there's an theme running through this thread that putting your face in the water after treading water for however many seconds out of 60 ("near the end" could be anywhere from 40 to 60 seconds) means that it's totally irresponsible to have him swimming in the deep end at all. People are saying that having to supervise him means he shouldn't be allowed to *continue* going into the deep end with supervision. Because somehow failing this test for a petty detail like that means that he will, while still right by his mom, become a danger to himself and others.

There is no call for people to say that he shouldn't get to go BACK into the deep end with his mom because of a test that he practically passed and can be retaken anyway.

Why are you quoting me? I didn't say he shouldn't go back in. I said that he should have failed the test, as he did, for not following instructions.


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## geekgolightly (Apr 21, 2004)

Unless they have regs about a parent being with a child who passes the swim test under X age, or something worded in a similar fashion, they are leaving themselves open for a lawsuit, should anything go wrong.

I wouldn't pass a 3 year old, even if he was a strong swimmer, if he could not follow a simple water test.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pumpkin_Pie* 
I don't really understand the "It's really no big deal" sort of comments. For him, it IS a big deal to not be able to play in the deep end. .....

Yes it is a big deal for him, but our jobs as a parent is to help them learn how to handled being "bumbed out" about something. Since pool safety is an issue his disappointment actually can help him learn other skills and a since of pride in accomplishing the test.

Learning from your failures is part of building confidence. Protecting our kids from ALL disappointments is not helpful.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
Since the OP said that the treading was without going under, then yes, it appears that the lifeguard gave them the instructions. When you go under, your face goes in the water.

But when your face goes in the water you aren't going under. You can't go under without your face going in the water, but you certainly can put your face in the water without going under.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
Why are you quoting me? I didn't say he shouldn't go back in. I said that he should have failed the test, as he did, for not following instructions.

I was explaining the response of mine that you had quoted.


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## gcgirl (Apr 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pumpkin_Pie* 
I don't really understand the "It's really no big deal" sort of comments. For him, it IS a big deal to not be able to play in the deep end. There are TONS of non-swimmers in the shallow end, and the deep end is much less congested. We actually generally work on swim skills in the deep end where he can actually concentrate and not bump into other kids who are splashing and playing. He also LOVES, freaking LOVES, LOVES, LOVES to jump into the pool from the edge. It is his absolutele hands down favorite activity at the pool. He is not allowed to do it in the shallow end, only in the deep end. If he is not allowed in the deep end, he can't jump. I know some folks think that really is no big deal, but try telling your three year old who has been jumping into the pool for nearly five months that he suddenly can't do it anymore because of an arbitrary rule change. Not fun... Yes, it is because of a safety issue, but still, how on earth would you explain it to a THREE year old?

I understand your feelings, but part of our job as parents is to help our children learn to deal with disappointment.

That said, I do think you should politely speak with the supervisor to clarify the policy. Maybe there needs to be a rule regarding kids who only swim in the deep end with parents...but honestly, the lifeguards shouldn't have to keep track of everyone's age, parental status, etc. They may be trying to streamline the rules to make things easier for the lifeguards, who already have a lot to deal with.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

At our YMCA we take DD into the deep end, within arm's reach, all the time. DD is not nearly as strong a swimmer as your DS is. She did not have to pass any test. We are just within arm's reach the whole time we're in the pool with her. (Also, the shallow end is too deep for her to stand anyway).

However, there is a difference between the shallow and deep end even when the young swimmer can't stand up in the shallow end. The difference is that the parent can stand, and thus easily assist the child if help is needed.

I am a reasonably strong swimmer but after reading information about helping a drowning person, I realized how difficult it is to hold someone else up in deep water. I did a little test holding up DD (just as a test, she was not in trouble) at the point in the pool where I could only stand on my tippy-toes. It was much harder than I thought. DH is also not as strong a swimmer as I am, so this realization hit him hard - since he is obviously stronger than I am (and also generally more capable, as he is not disabled as I am) it was a shock for him to realize that just because he was within arm's reach of her didn't mean he could easily save her if she was in trouble.

Therefore, we continue to swim to the deep end with DD but within arm's reach of the edge of the pool. Never out in the middle.

This is general information, I understand your son is a very strong swimmer, but it's something to keep in mind. Also don't forget that strength of swimming does not preclude drowning. From your description, I doubt your son will just suddenly start drowning for no particular reason, but I have read enough stories of drowning to know that children (and adults!) can be easily disoriented under various circumstances - such as having older children horsing around nearby and knocking hard into him, or even jumping on to him. I've even read of double drownings where one person starts to drown and then grabs another person and drowns THEM.

Anyway, I think you should be able to arms-reach supervise your son without a test, but just a few cautions for you to keep in mind for yourself.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laohaire* 
However, there is a difference between the shallow and deep end even when the young swimmer can't stand up in the shallow end. The difference is that the parent can stand, and thus easily assist the child if help is needed.

There's also a difference for the lifeguards in being able to see the bottom of the pool and in response time for them as well. Because of diving board shadows and that kind of thing scanning a deep end is just different.

I totally get the frustration, but I guess I think each pool has to set its rules based on their experience and understanding of their particular group of people, physical layout, and any past issues. I actually think it's a really good sign in a pool if they are constantly evaluating their rules, even if the changes seem annoying and arbitrary.

I get that it may be unfair that kids in the deep end have to pass a test, and it's always worth asking about it - but at the end of the day I think part of water safety is respecting pool rules, even ones we don't agree with like "no canonballs" or whatever.

That includes explaining why your son has to retake the test - hopefully it went really well.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

How is a child going to learn to swim the length of a pool if an adult can't take him into the deep end to do so?


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hoopin' Mama* 
How is a child going to learn to swim the length of a pool if an adult can't take him into the deep end to do so?

During times when the pool is set up for such an activity -- like swim lessons.

This is all safety related, so I feel a child should be *mature* enough to understand the rules of the test in order to pass the test, though if he completed then test (completely) and then put his face in the water afterwards, it seems that they didn't follow their own rule.

I don't think the rule should be different for younger children. Sometimes the pool at our Y is so packed that it difficult to see what everyone is up to, and many of the parents don't swim well enough to keep their kids safe in the deep end.

Life isn't fair, and he needs to learn to follow rules. Not getting his way one day and being bummed about isn't a big deal in the big picture of things, and part of our job as parents is to help our kids learn to see the big picture.

Just because a 3 year old THINKS something is a big deal doesn't make it a big deal.


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## ASusan (Jun 6, 2006)

I'm with you on the rule switch - tough for little ones to take!

Just tonight, DS was no longer allowed to jump off the diving board (toward me, but not into my arms). The new rule is they must jump off the board and swim to the side (ladder?) alone. DS CAN swim to the side alone, but he doesn't "get it" yet. Until this new rule, either the swim instructor or myself has been below him when he jumps off the board and "escorts" him to the side of the pool.

And there is no where else he can "dive" into the water - and he LOVES going head first/doing flips.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Linda on the move* 
During times when the pool is set up for such an activity -- like swim lessons.

I agree with all your points. I've observed a lot of swim lessons though and there doesn't seem to be enough time (unless it's a private lesson) to practice endurance skills. We just started swimming the length of the pool, together, and if I couldn't do that with him, I can't imagine when he'd learn.


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## Pumpkin_Pie (Oct 10, 2006)

He has taken swimming lessons, and does horribly in them. I also have never seen any type of endurance swimming in lessons. Ever. They just don't have the time to do it. The only way he learned how to swim end to end in the pool was before the rule switch when he was allowed to swim in the deep end.

As far as holding up a child who can no longer swim when the adult cannot touch the bottom, I have done it many times with him. Yes, it is very hard, but he has accidentally swallowed too much water and come up choking in the middle of the deep end before, and I have to scoop him up. I can tread water with him and I both with our heads above water, and I can also swim him to the edge with him in my arms. Yes, it can be super hard and tiring, but I have done it, and feel completely confident in my ability to do it. Honestly, I think that is a better test to have when a parent takes a small child into the deep end.

We haven't gone back to the pool, mostly because I don't want to deal with his disappointment at not being able to go into the deep end. I have been trying to teach him to not put his face in the water as he swims or treads water. It is so hard to un-do what I had been teaching him (the beginnings of rotary breathing) so that he can pass this test.

To all of the folks who keep saying that life isn't fair and he needs to learn about disappointment and that next time he will do what he is told, again, he is only THREE. He has all of the impulse control issues of a three year old, and the lack of short term memory of a three year old. I am not trying to have him pass a test to be swimming alone in the deep end with absolutely no supervision, I am simply trying to have him allowed to swim in the deep end where he can play right next to an adult at all times. I have talked to him about it a million times since it happened, I have brought him to our local swimming holes and worked with him on treading water, but still, I am pretty sure he doesn't really "get" it that he needs to do this test in order to swim over there next time.

I did get a reply back from the aquatics director, and she pretty much gave me a generic answer that showed that she really didn't read the email that I had sent. She essentially said, "Yes, children need to pass the test. Have a nice day, and good job on having an early swimmer!" She did not address anything else. Very frustrating. I wish there was another indoor pool that we could go to, but this one really is the only pool in town, unfortunately.

We will see how he does next time.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

: Best of luck! And I'd check their rules and see if there's anything about whether you can give instructions. If you're allowed to be right there, as you said was the case in the first attempt at the test, then try telling him to look at you when he's treading water.








: As for the problem with an adult not being necessarily able to save a child in the deep end alone, the adult can call for help and is larger and more visible if they get in trouble. I know that actually drowning people can't flail and yell, but an adult should realize they need help before it gets to the point of a drowning response.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

I don't understand the idea of needing to pass the swim test to *be* in the deep end. I've never heard of that. The pools we've visited have always been to pass it to swim alone.

The indoor pool we visit has several open times, though. During family swim, people can need parental supervision, but during open swim, everyone needs to be able to swim alone. (I'm not sure of the difference because we've never been to open swim.) Maybe there are other choices of time to swim for you.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hoopin' Mama* 
How is a child going to learn to swim the length of a pool if an adult can't take him into the deep end to do so?

It is completely possible to learn to swim in the shallow in. My 3 kids did. Once they master the shallow they can do the deep end.

The non or barely swimming kids do the same on our swim team. They work in the shallow ended/section until the coaches know the deep end isn't going to be an issue.

OP-- he is three you admit he lacks maturity and impulse control and memory skills. This means he needs to be held back, even if it is disappointing to him. Once he masters that then he can move ahead. It isn't about just one skill but several of them. What if he forgets or doesn't have the impulse control to listen to the life guard when it really counts.


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## confustication (Mar 18, 2006)

It should not be difficult for a competent swimmer to assist a small child- yes, it can be difficult to assist a 275 lb muscle builder, but a small child should be a pretty easy assist. However, you are asking the lifeguards to trust that YOU are capable of assisting and supervising your child adequately, and quite simply, that's a really risky gamble from their view, and it leaves their liability wide open if something did happen.

I do hope that he can understand the rules soon and is able to celebrate his success and hard work with a return to favorite activities.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom* 
What if he forgets or doesn't have the impulse control to listen to the life guard when it really counts.

Then his mother will be right there and will help him.

While it is possible that he should've failed the test, I don't get why people think that barely failing the test all of a sudden means he shouldn't try the test again to have the opportunity to do an activity that's been fun for months.


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

As a former lifeguard, and someone who spent much of her teen years at the pool, I have a whole different concern with how the pool appears to be implementing this test.

It's quite possible for a youngster to be a strong enough swimmer to pass the test, without having the maturity to go into the deep end of the pool unsupervised. It appears with how the management has set up the guidelines here, once her child passes the test, he's free to be in the deep end WITHOUT supervision. It doesn't sound like the OP intends to do that, but the OP isn't all parents.

It really doesn't make sense to me to require the test in question for the child to be in the deep end under one-to-one supervision. It doesn't make sense to me to say that if a 3-year-old passes this test, he's allowed to be in the deep end with or without supervision (which they have implied with the parameters of the test).

All the pools I have ever worked at or used allowed kids to be in the deep end with one-to-one supervision without passing any test. They generally had a flexible minimum age for the deep end test, which was always stated to allow UNSUPERVISED usage of the deep end. (Flexible in that the age was something like 7 BUT . . . younger members of our swim team could take the test with their instructor/be approved at swim practice for free swim times, younger swimmers without that background could be allowed to take the test with supervisor approval, etc.)


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## Pumpkin_Pie (Oct 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cschick* 
As a former lifeguard, and someone who spent much of her teen years at the pool, I have a whole different concern with how the pool appears to be implementing this test.

It's quite possible for a youngster to be a strong enough swimmer to pass the test, without having the maturity to go into the deep end of the pool unsupervised. It appears with how the management has set up the guidelines here, once her child passes the test, he's free to be in the deep end WITHOUT supervision. It doesn't sound like the OP intends to do that, but the OP isn't all parents.

It really doesn't make sense to me to require the test in question for the child to be in the deep end under one-to-one supervision. It doesn't make sense to me to say that if a 3-year-old passes this test, he's allowed to be in the deep end with or without supervision (which they have implied with the parameters of the test).

All the pools I have ever worked at or used allowed kids to be in the deep end with one-to-one supervision without passing any test. They generally had a flexible minimum age for the deep end test, which was always stated to allow UNSUPERVISED usage of the deep end. (Flexible in that the age was something like 7 BUT . . . younger members of our swim team could take the test with their instructor/be approved at swim practice for free swim times, younger swimmers without that background could be allowed to take the test with supervisor approval, etc.)

Exactly. This is what I was trying to say in many of my above posts, thank-you for saying this. It is just completely ridiculous to have a child take a test and be required to pass it in order to swim beside a parent. I would NEVER allow him to be more than arms length away from me, but yet if he passes this test, he will technically be allowed to be on the complete opposite side of the pool from me in the deep end. It just doesn't make sense. Yes, he is an extremely strong swimmer, and he is clearly talented in the water, but he is still three. I just want to be able to play with him and help him to learn to swim (ironically, I also help to teach pre-school swim classes). He listens to my instructions in the deep end so much more easily and is also able to practice without the congestion that regularly happens in the shallow end. It is so hard for him to concentrate when we have to constantly alter our course through the water around kids jumping around, splashing, throwing beach balls, etc.


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pumpkin_Pie* 
Exactly. This is what I was trying to say in many of my above posts, thank-you for saying this. It is just completely ridiculous to have a child take a test and be required to pass it in order to swim beside a parent. I would NEVER allow him to be more than arms length away from me, but yet if he passes this test, he will technically be allowed to be on the complete opposite side of the pool from me in the deep end. It just doesn't make sense. Yes, he is an extremely strong swimmer, and he is clearly talented in the water, but he is still three. I just want to be able to play with him and help him to learn to swim (ironically, I also help to teach pre-school swim classes). He listens to my instructions in the deep end so much more easily and is also able to practice without the congestion that regularly happens in the shallow end. It is so hard for him to concentrate when we have to constantly alter our course through the water around kids jumping around, splashing, throwing beach balls, etc.

Unfortunately, I suspect the guard was probably looking for a reason to flunk your kid, if they are being told to regard the test as a "without supervision" test. As a teenaged lifeguard, I wouldn't have felt comfortable passing a 3-year-old if those were the parameters. As the parent of a just-turning-4 who is also a strong swimmer, I'm still not comfortable with that either. It's nothing about you at all, but about stupid decisions from pool management.

I am comfortable with a parent in arm's reach of a younger child in the deep end. It's best if the parent also knows how to side-stroke with struggling kid to the side (one of the things I have taught my husband), but most parents have a loud enough voice to get a guard's attention if something goes badly wrong and the guard knows what to do.

(The other thing you might want to do, if you haven't, is read the PSA about what drowning looks like that someone posted on the boards a few weeks back. It is valuable.)


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