# Books with naked baby pics.... a question about,



## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

I'm curious...

We're getting rid of books (a really hard thing for us) and I just found a new criteria for losing them. We have two books on infant massage and they both show baby penises. The first one that I picked up to look at today was "Infant Massage - A Handbook for Loving Parents" by Vimala Schneider McClure. I opened it up to a random page and there was a mutilated penis staring back at me







:

So I decided to check out the other one which is "Loving Hands" by Frederick Leboyer. No mutilation there!

I figure... I have a daughter. I do not want any pictures of circumcised penises just laying around. I know from experience that at some point in her life she will want to look at anything related to male anatomy and I want to try to have only/mostly intact examples for her to see (we'll work on a brother or two in the meantime







). Also, for my own sake... I don't want to look at circ'd baby pictures either









What are your feelings about this? Would you keep both books? Would you use this criteria for figuring out which one to get rid of? Am I off my rocker for basing this decision on which baby is intact?

love and peace.


----------



## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

I don't think you are off your rocker at all. I have similar type criteria books. I don't want bottle feeding or pacifiers normalized and so I don't check out children's books from the library to read to my dd that have these things in them. I also try to avoid cribs in books. We are a nursing and co-sleeping family. Dd certainly knows these things are used by some families and we don't make a big deal about it either way...I just don't want those images to be a part of my dd's entertainment and education. I feel the same way about circ. I wouldn't want circ'd baby pictures in books either.


----------



## baybee (Jan 24, 2005)

As the culture moves toward preservation of the intact male, the books, art, movies and other symbols will change, too. I have an intactivist friend who is a nurse from France. She said she could not believe her eyes when she saw a statue in New Mexico of a circumcised male. She had been to all the great art galleries and big cities in Europe and always seen "intact" statues.
She didn't know what to make of a piece of art that had a denuded glans.
Baybee


----------



## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

You are not crazy in the slightest, a real difficulty that the US is facing is that circumcision is so common it has gone cultural.

Accordingly the word "Penis" tends to summon up images of the mutilated variety in most people's heads, as if it were the norm. Therefore it is seen as odd, strange or at least unusual for a penis not to be, at least on a subconsious level.

This is one of the principal reasons for it remaining so popular, the uncircumcised penis is something very hard to find when looking at American depictions and representations, whether it be in pornography or even the original graphic novel version of Frank ******'s Sin City. Many have this image firmly entrenched in their mind as a penis before they are even aware of what was neccessary to make it fit such a state, through this it seems like the right or correct way for a penis to be.

As you said, the rest of the world uses uncircumcised penises for art and such and accordingly people grow accustomed to the natural variety.

The difference is stark:

In America most seeing a circumcised penis will just think "That is a penis". They ignore the fact that cosmetic surgery was performed upon it to make it look that way, or at least that does not come anywhere close to their consious. An intact penis however makes them think "That is a penis which has not been circumcised". Accordingly the normality is based around an act, that then seems essential except in an instance of deviancy.

A European or Asian (other than a South Korean, Jew or Muslim, perhaps) who sees an intact penis will just think "That is a penis". That it has a foreskin is not really something that merits a mention. A circumcised penis seen though will evoke a thought along the lines of "That is a penis which has been circumcised". The vision recalls the event to fit the state, that the penis has been altered is acknowledged and recognised.

To simulate this in your daughter avoiding her seeing circumcised penises at an early age is imperative, this could cause her to think that they are somehow "Right" or "The way things should be" and when it turns out that surgery is required later it is downscaled to fit around the principle of normalcy and fear of the unknown.

In short, it counts. You are not insane at all.


----------



## calngavinsmom (Feb 19, 2003)

Heck I get wigged out enough from the cover of Nirvanas' Nevermind CD cover:
http://lime.typepad.com/blawg/images/nirvana.jpg

I actually took off the cover and replaced it with plain paper in our collection.







Is that crazy to you?

I definately see your point about the books









Tara


----------



## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I don't think you are crazy. I forgo buying baby/parening books with pics of circed boys in them or really bad circ info! I get most of my books from thrift stores and when I come across a preg/baby/parenting book the first thing I look up is the circ info.


----------



## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *calngavinsmom*
Heck I get wigged out enough from the cover of Nirvanas' Nevermind CD cover:
http://lime.typepad.com/blawg/images/nirvana.jpg

I actually took off the cover and replaced it with plain paper in our collection.







Is that crazy to you?

I definately see your point about the books









I thought I was alone in being quite disturbed by that!

But then...I suppose it fits the tone of the album really. Not sure if that was intentional. Hey wait! Maybe this was the most subtle intactavist message ever to hit the mainstream! He is swimming after a $ after all...

I love that album a lot, not their best but still superb.


----------



## Kleine Hexe (Dec 2, 2001)

I feel the same way. We even have an intact boy babydoll. I want my children to know what's normal first and then later I can explain the differences.


----------



## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

Where does one get an intact baby boy doll? I love that idea!


----------



## calngavinsmom (Feb 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PuppyFluffer*
Where does one get an intact baby boy doll? I love that idea!

You can find them on E-Bay. Or I have seen them in toy stores around here in the past (10= years ago) but nothing recent.

ETA: I just found these and they are wayyyyy too cute! Check them out:
http://www.kidsandgrandkids.com/cgi-...&id=1135112710

Take care,
Tara


----------



## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *calngavinsmom*
ETA: I just found these and they are wayyyyy too cute! Check them out:
http://www.kidsandgrandkids.com/cgi-...&id=1135112710

I found it a little tricky to tell...


----------



## Rhiannon Feimorgan (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Revamp*
I found it a little tricky to tell...

me to!


----------



## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Thank you for your responses! At the first thought it seemed perfectly normal to me to want to get rid of the book, but it seemed like it would seem strange to other people when I thought about it a bit more (I hope that makes sense







). I definitely want dd to know what a penis really looks like and not get used to the mutilated variety. Not that I want her to discount someone based on his circ status (okay... part of me does...







but the other part doesn't!), but I don't want her to think it's okay for her to do to her sons or that it's in any way "normal".

love and peace.


----------



## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rhiannon Feimorgan*
me to!

Maybe they are designed to cater to both... That would certainly make it the first Triangulated child's toy penis I have ever seen.









Great to hear that you are taking that approach Playa, I think that once she is old enough a frank talk about the issue would be the best approach but while she is young just using an early counter-balance for the bias towards mutilation that she will experience should be enough.

I am glad that we were of some help.


----------



## susienjay (Oct 20, 2004)

Some waldorf doll makers will do anatomically correct boy dolls. I don't have one but I was considering getting one for ds.

I always check books to make sure they only have intact penises in them. I was more careful about checking back when I only had girls. I plan to educate them fully about circumcision but I wanted the first pictures they saw of penises when they were little to be intact. Now that we have a little intact boy in the house it doesn't bother me so much. I really think part of the reason I always planned not to circ is that my little brother isn't and I was so used to that being the default from a young age.


----------



## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *susienjay*
Some waldorf doll makers will do anatomically correct boy dolls. I don't have one but I was considering getting one for ds.

I always check books to make sure they only have intact penises in them. I was more careful about checking back when I only had girls. I plan to educate them fully about circumcision but I wanted the first pictures they saw of penises when they were little to be intact. Now that we have a little intact boy in the house it doesn't bother me so much. I really think part of the reason I always planned not to circ is that my little brother isn't and I was so used to that being the default from a young age.

Hmm... It seems even more obvious when you consider that: you just acknowledge it as the default.


----------



## Christine&men (Jun 4, 2005)

As good as a criteria as what I do when I am stuck between two books (non-fiction): I take the one with more pages!!!


----------



## Islay (Apr 29, 2006)

Trmpetplaya, DO keep 'Loving Hands' - and bin the other book.

I speak as an Englishman; but for all that is 'lovely and of good report' I can see no sense in perpetuating an image (mental or actual) of a denuded penis. Your daughter will eventually see penises in the flesh and many (perhaps most) will be as natural as the day their owners were born.

As a boy, I, like most children, took every opportunity to scour the pages of books with pictures of the human anatomy. I will never forget the occasion when I found a large nursing manual of my mother's and came across a photo of a little boy of about 8 or 9 standing naked with a circumcised penis. I realise now that it was there because it depicted a very rare operation, but at the time I was transfixed, horrified and incredulous.

-----------------------------------

Tara, that lovely picture of the waterbaby is doctored, as I'm sure you realise.







The original video was shown to millions of viewers in the UK under the opening credits of a very popular TV programme called _Tomorrow's World_. NO dollar note and an *intact* penis!

'Tomorrow's World' - now how about that as a slogan for intactivism in America??

-----------------------------------

Karen, try some English websites, too. Baby boy dolls (black and white) can be found easily - all intact, of course!

Christopher


----------



## crsta33 (Oct 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *trmpetplaya*
I know from experience that at some point in her life she will want to look at anything related to male anatomy and I want to try to have only/mostly intact examples for her to see

This just made me smile for some reason. I think it's a great idea to get rid of books that show a circumsized penis. I grew up thinking circumsized was the way they came and wondering why it looked so odd...little did I know it was supposed to be covered up under all but the most intimate of circumstances.

As a child I thought that a penis (circumsized) looked rather alot like a vienna sausage. It wasn't all that pleasant an association.









I was quite thrilled when I first read about an intact penis (in Stephen Kings Dead Zone, I believe) which was long before I actually saw one.

Christa


----------



## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Islay*

Tara, that lovely picture of the waterbaby is doctored, as I'm sure you realise.







The original video was shown to millions of viewers in the UK under the opening credits of a very popular TV programme called _Tomorrow's World_. NO dollar note and an *intact* penis!


REALLY?!

Wow...Cobain must have been making a deeper point than I though...As if it was not deep enough without intactavism hmm?


----------



## LadyMarmalade (May 22, 2005)

I had no idea the original picture had an intact penis! The Nirvana album was the first picture I'd ever seen of a circumcised baby.

Karen, if you can't find an intact baby doll I can send you one if you're interested. They're not expensive at all (but they're made from plastic - lots of people would prefer a cloth doll). You can only get intact dolls here. I can take a photo of my son's doll if you want.


----------



## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Oh dear...

It seems that they photographed a boy called Spenser Elding especially for the cover since stock photos were too pricey, the shoot cost around $400 and was, indeed, inspired by the original Tomorrow's World baby swimming. The only reference I could find to digital alteration was the Record Label who, naturally, wanted the penis to be removed from the photo. The band refused, one website said they "Demanded the member stay intact" but that was a reference to them not wanting it to vanish it completely rather than an urge to retain the foreskin, although it did get my hopes up for a moment.

It seems that that poor boy was circumcised after all...


----------



## Kleine Hexe (Dec 2, 2001)

Boy babydolls...I honestly can't remember what company I bought it from. It was 5 years ago. I know it was off the internet and the lady (she was in CA) had both girl and boy dolls. The doll is hard plastic.


----------



## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crsta33*
As a child I thought that a penis (circumsized) looked rather alot like a vienna sausage. It wasn't all that pleasant an association.









The similarity is striking...

Quote:

I was quite thrilled when I first read about an intact penis (in Stephen Kings Dead Zone, I believe) which was long before I actually saw one.
How exactly did that come up?


----------



## crsta33 (Oct 13, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Revamp*
How exactly did that come up?

Do you mean in the book? It was a sex scene in a car, if I remember correctly. I didn't technically know the difference in intact and cut, or really that there was one, but the description was pretty, um, explicit, and it was an ah-ha moment for me. I do hope I'm remembering the correct book...I read so much as a young teen.

Christa


----------



## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crsta33*
Do you mean in the book? It was a sex scene in a car, if I remember correctly. I didn't technically know the difference in intact and cut, or really that there was one, but the description was pretty, um, explicit, and it was an ah-ha moment for me. I do hope I'm remembering the correct book...I read so much as a young teen.

Must have been quite a revelation...


----------



## Nathan1097 (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Revamp*
In America most seeing a circumcised penis will just think "That is a penis". They ignore the fact that cosmetic surgery was performed upon it to make it look that way, or at least that does not come anywhere close to their consious. An intact penis however makes them think "That is a penis which has not been circumcised". Accordingly the normality is based around an act, that then seems essential except in an instance of deviancy.

Last week, my boyfriend (intact) and I were walking downtown and passed a shop that was closed. Inside the window was a smallish (less than 2 feet "tall") bronze (?) metal statue of a man reclining on his back, arching his back, as if maybe to dive or maybe just stretch. My boyfriend pointed out that the penis was circumcised, saying "I thought they all were intact in sculptures..." and then I said something about it being "an obviously _American[/] piece of art, this way..."_


----------



## Belle (Feb 6, 2005)

After reading the OP I had to get my infant massage book down. I didn't see a penis in there anywhere. Every baby in there was either female, wearing a diaper, or had hands covering their genitals. My book is titled Baby massage; the calming power of touch.

I think they avoided the topic alltogether. They didn't want to show a mutilated penis or to scare off a parent who had never seen an intact one.


----------



## Revamp (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Belle*
After reading the OP I had to get my infant massage book down. I didn't see a penis in there anywhere. Every baby in there was either female, wearing a diaper, or had hands covering their genitals. My book is titled Baby massage; the calming power of touch.

I think they avoided the topic alltogether. They didn't want to show a mutilated penis or to scare off a parent who had never seen an intact one.

Perhaps they were just downright reluctant to show a penis?


----------



## SingSongMomma (May 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *calngavinsmom*
You can find them on E-Bay. Or I have seen them in toy stores around here in the past (10= years ago) but nothing recent.

ETA: I just found these and they are wayyyyy too cute! Check them out:
http://www.kidsandgrandkids.com/cgi-...&id=1135112710

Take care,
Tara

http://www.birthinternational.com/pr...del/ta006.html


----------



## Ilaria (Jan 14, 2002)

I had the same book and the cut penises bothered me (though she had intact babies as well).

I have 2 intact boy dolls, one from Italy and one from Spain. It's still very common in Europe to find drink and pee dolls with normal genitals.


----------

