# How much 'obedience' is good/necessary?



## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

I saw this question on another board, and I thought it would be really interesting to get your point of view on it....will come back later with my reply.


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## lerlerler (Mar 31, 2004)

In my book? ALmost None.

I do not want my child to OBEY me. I very much desire, instruct and encourage her to ask questions and then do what I ask out of a new understanding of the situation, respect for my experience, family harmony, etc. (although for that, I need to be open to hearing HER argument.... in non-safety related cases)

In safety related cases and the word "STOP!!" when we are on a busy street, etc.. I expect IMMEDIATE obedience, and the ability to discuss or change the rules at a later, safer moment.

But yea, maybe one hour a day I would appreciate a wee bit of blind obedience, even though I know in my heart that that doesn't foster the type of thought I want her to have... but...


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

just about none.

i really enjoy that my ds is his own person and that he makes his own decisions. in fact, when i talk about it with other people who aren't quite getting it i usually just say that i want my ds to grow into the kind of person who does things because he sees a reason for it, not because someone told him to and the only way to develop that is to practice it.

like if he doesn't want to put his coat on to go outside, i'll let him go outside to see how cold it is and then decide if he wants to put his coat on. 99.9% of the time the answer is yes and he made the decision so the process goes much smoother.

it's hard with the pets because he can't look at things from their perspective yet. so we do have some rules about animals and food out of the kitchen but those rules are kind of just the way we do things, not do what i say right now, type of things.


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## Calidris (Apr 17, 2004)

I'm struggling with that these days. I don't want blind obedience (most of the time







), but (like today) she starts to brush off the dust from something, and I say "Don't do that" and she continues brushing the dust at me, when after I explain why I want her to stop.....

There has to be some sort of balance, and somehow I have not found it.


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

Well, _any_ amount of obedience would be convenient and nice for the parent!







And as long as it's not fear-based, there's nothing wrong with it! Some kids are naturally pleasers.

My oldest son (7) is an expert negotiator. I have tried to drill the following phrases into his head: "First obey, then negotiate." Or "First obey, then ask why"...."Obey immediately, then argue." He's really smart, and he understands that this is the way we do it because his safety could be at stake. I'm really flexible and laid-back, and I'm always open to change my mind if there's a good reason. And he knows he always deserves an answer to the question "Why?" Occaionally, when he asks "Why?" I have to answer honestly, "You know, there's really no good reason why. I was just being a bully. I'm sorry. Forget it. But thanks for obeying before asking, just in case it was really important."

I like to say that my second son (4) is "highly open to suggestion." He is a very social, friendly, agreeable child who is usually eager to do what needs to be done in order for a situation to go smoothly. But, obey? NEVER! Just _try_ to boss him around and you'll quickly find yourself looking like a total fool. He doesn't respond to scolding, threats/punishments, bribes/rewards, or anything like that. But we manage. You just find what works for your individual child.


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## IdahoMom (Nov 8, 2005)

I expect obedience. I am the parent. My children are more secure and happier people when I give them boundaries and expectations. I just try to enforce those boundaries in the most gentle way I can. It's a process. . . I'm not perfect at it. But the better I get at gently maintaining consistent boundaries, the more peaceful our home is. If I either rule with an iron fist, or let things relax too much, things get chaotic and the children are more unsettled and unhappy.

I don't know where this idea came from that expecting children to obey those who are supposed to be teaching and raising them, who have ESSENTIAL LIFE EXPERIENCE, is somehow a bad thing. I figure it's better for them to learn lessons now, when the stakes are smaller, than when they're adults and consequences are more catastrophic.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

I will expect things like "Stop" to be followed immediately without question.

Everything else is up for debate.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

My oldest daughter could, would, and does argue with me about everything. Obey at times isn't in her dictionary............but she obeys perfectly when I need her to the most. Like when we were at the mall and were shuttled into the mall hallways. When someone try to break into our house she obeyed.

So I think there needs to be obediance and understanding when you can negotiate.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I have no desire to raise obedient children. Obedience is not a trait I value.

I would no more want my children to be obiedient than my husband.

That said- if I call out in an urgent voice *STOP* I would think that both my children and my husband would stop.







Not obedience as much as trust.

-Angela


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Three years ago, I would have answered like Alegna. I still don't want obedient children who will blindly follow orders, but I think I've realized that I can have free-thinkers and still have kids who do what I tell them without questioning it at least 30% of the time. That's what I'm shooting for anyway.

I have three closely spaced young children, and this has changed our family dynamic significantly. If I have to spend 10 or 15 minutes waiting for or negotiating with a child to put on shoes, come to me, pick something up, etc., a window of opportunity for something really important is lost. So there are a lot of times during the day that I give orders, and I expect them to be followed, at least as well as a 4 year old, 2 year old, and 1 year old can.


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## IdahoMom (Nov 8, 2005)

Yes, having 3 or more kids is a whole different ballgame than 1 or even 2.


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## babygrace (Aug 23, 2006)

yup. imagine how it must have been like those days when having at least half a dozen children per family was the norm rather than the exception. and without half the 'stuff' parents have today for the children exclusively.


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## FoxintheSnow (May 11, 2004)

I want my children to respect themselves and others rather than be obediant.


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## LotusBirthMama (Jun 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdahoMom* 
I expect obedience. I am the parent. My children are more secure and happier people when I give them boundaries and expectations. I just try to enforce those boundaries in the most gentle way I can. It's a process. . . I'm not perfect at it. But the better I get at gently maintaining consistent boundaries, the more peaceful our home is. If I either rule with an iron fist, or let things relax too much, things get chaotic and the children are more unsettled and unhappy.

I don't know where this idea came from that expecting children to obey those who are supposed to be teaching and raising them, who have ESSENTIAL LIFE EXPERIENCE, is somehow a bad thing. I figure it's better for them to learn lessons now, when the stakes are smaller, than when they're adults and consequences are more catastrophic.









:

i expect my children to obey me, and i'd wager i have 90 percent compliance w/ my 10 yo and 65 percent w/ my 4.5 year old. i do not "force" the obediance andits not blind. they have simply learned from birth up that when mommy or daddy tell you x,y,z then you need to listen. my 10 yo ds likes reasons for why i ask certain things and i'm happy to give them. but once he hears my reaoning he is expected to listen even if he may not agree.

i know i am probably much more strict than most mdc moms, but i still feel that i am as loving and gentle as i know how to be. my kids are good children who (for the most part) are very well-behaved and respectful.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Merriam Webster defines Obey as 1. to follow the commands or guidance of

The amount of obedience in my house feels right to me. I don't punish to gain obedience. I think it comes mostly from natural parental authority, and ds's personality. I don't feel that he's likely to just do what someone says, just because.
My ds obeys me some of the time. Not as in "do what I say, no matter how you feel" but because he knows that I have a reason for what I'm asking, and that I will try to work with him if I can.

So if I say "Do not dump the water" he won't. He will stop in anticipation of my working with him to find a solution that will work for us both.

If I'm asking him to do something, much of the time he'll do it, mostly because he's pretty easygoing and doesn't mind doing it.
If it's something that he doesn't really want to do, we generally have to find an agreeable solution, or I have to explain it to him such that he changes his mind and wants to do it. A lot of the time, he won't just DO something that I tell him to do, that he doesn't want to do.

He obeys me about things that I'm serious about, which usually involves harm to people/animals. And I expect him to. But I also think that he agrees with those rules, if that makes sense. But, even then, I'd try to work with him, find the reason, find an alternative, etc.


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

Some. I don't want blind obedience, but I would like her to recognise that I'm reasonable, and that ususally what I suggest/ask is the most sensible thing.

I suppose you'd call that reasoned obedience rather than blind obedience, maybe?


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I have no desire to raise obedient children. Obedience is not a trait I value.

I would no more want my children to be obiedient than my husband.

That said- if I call out in an urgent voice *STOP* I would think that both my children and my husband would stop.







Not obedience as much as trust.

-Angela

Exactly how I feel. I have no desire for her to be obedient, and I hope she trusts me enough that if I say "STOP" I have a really good reason and she'll stop out of trust, not obedience.


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## Stugroupie (Aug 19, 2003)

So how do you get to that point? What do you do when they don't obey on something that is important?

I, too am probably a bit more strict than other moms here, but not *too* strict. I have an "obey first, ask later" policy, though that doesn't seem to be followed well, either.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LotusBirthMama* 
i do not "force" the obediance and its not blind. they have simply learned from birth up that when mommy or daddy tell you x,y,z then you need to listen.

i know i am probably much more strict than most mdc moms, but i still feel that i am as loving and gentle as i know how to be. my kids are good children who (for the most part) are very well-behaved and respectful.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

For those who say "none" I have a question.
If dc was about to do something that had the potential to damage something or make a mess or really irritate someone (I dunno, throwing something hard, playing with the dirt in a potted plant, blowing a whistle close to you, etc) and you told them not to, and they did it anyways, would you seriously not mind? Would you see that as a positive thing (because you don't want them to be obedient, and they aren't)?
I'm talking, in the moment. You say stop, and they do it before you can talk about an alterative solution.

I know that hypotheticals are hard, but make it whatever you want. You tell dc no, they do it anyways. Is that lack of obedience perfectly fine with you?

This isn't snarky, it's an honest question. I can see my dp not getting upset if he said no, and ds did it anyways. So I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. It's just a way different way of thinking for me.


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## EvansMomma (Mar 7, 2006)

I think I know the board you saw this on.
This was my response in that thread (if it is the same one).

I think blind, unquestioning obedience to ANY authority figure (parent or otherwise) is unhealthy. I guess the hope is that if I let Evan have a good amount of autonomy over himself, then when I DO demand something (health risks, safety risks, etc) he'll be more likely to listen.

He's still just 2 years old, but I don't really force him into compliance very much. And I don't plan to in the future. I know maybe I'm in the minority (havent read the other responses yet) but it would really hurt my heart if Evan grew up to be a "Yes Ma'am" kid who never stands up for himself.

If a child can (respectfully) question his parents, then he will be far more likely to let that self-assertion carry over to the rest of his life. I don't want Evan just blindly obeying ANYONE, me included. I'm not infallible, I'll make mistakes, and I'd be proud as a freakin peacock if Evan grows up to feel secure enough to call me on my mistakes. If I'm being unfair, I'd love to hear him say "Mom, that's really unfair because 'x y and z' reasons".


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Well it's easy for me to say, "none really" to this one. except I have a very naturally well behaved child of 4 and a newborn. My son just doesn't throw toys or hurt people, it's not in his nature. He is very aware of himself, waits his turn and is gentle with others, especially babies and animals.

I have a friend with a son the same age. As lovable and sweet a boy you ever want to meet, with absolutely no concept of his own body or boundaries at all. he will hug a child so strongly he hurts them with his grip and pulls them both down on to the floor. When he wants to get to the top of the slide he will not even see the other kids on the ladder he is knocking past. There isn't any malicious intent behind it. it's just a lack of awareness.

I know some will say that I raised my son to be a conscientious playmate, or that he is just more mature than my friends kid. But really he has always been this way. I'm just lucky and he is a laid back little guy.


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## ShaggyDaddy (Jul 5, 2006)

obedience is for dogs.


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## EvansMomma (Mar 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
For those who say "none" I have a question.
If dc was about to do something that had the potential to damage something or make a mess or really irritate someone (I dunno, throwing something hard, playing with the dirt in a potted plant, blowing a whistle close to you, etc) and you told them not to, and they did it anyways, would you seriously not mind? Would you see that as a positive thing (because you don't want them to be obedient, and they aren't)?
I'm talking, in the moment. You say stop, and they do it before you can talk about an alterative solution.

I know that hypotheticals are hard, but make it whatever you want. You tell dc no, they do it anyways. Is that lack of obedience perfectly fine with you?

This isn't snarky, it's an honest question. I can see my dp not getting upset if he said no, and ds did it anyways. So I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. It's just a way different way of thinking for me.

For us at least, Evan 'knows' the difference in the tone of my voice.
Maybe he picks things up better than I think he does, but it's like he knows the difference between 'serious mom' and 'merely a little annoyed mom'.

And sometimes, his refusal to listen to my bossiness is a good chance for me to think, "Is this REALLY worth fighting about?" Most times, it's not really that big of a deal as I first thought it was.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
For those who say "none" I have a question.
If dc was about to do something that had the potential to damage something or make a mess or really irritate someone (I dunno, throwing something hard, playing with the dirt in a potted plant, blowing a whistle close to you, etc) and you told them not to, and they did it anyways, would you seriously not mind? Would you see that as a positive thing (because you don't want them to be obedient, and they aren't)?
I'm talking, in the moment. You say stop, and they do it before you can talk about an alterative solution.

I know that hypotheticals are hard, but make it whatever you want. You tell dc no, they do it anyways. Is that lack of obedience perfectly fine with you?

This isn't snarky, it's an honest question. I can see my dp not getting upset if he said no, and ds did it anyways. So I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. It's just a way different way of thinking for me.

Depends on the situation. Two summers ago when my son was having a hard time waiting his turn at gymboree play and music class, we left. I didn't raise my voice and I did warn him before we left that if he was having trouble waiting his turn we would have to leave and try again another day. he still tried to shove ahead, so we left, and he cried in the car. But then at the next class we attended he did not need to be reminded that it was nice to wait turns. So that worked very well.

But I was the mother of only one child at the time. And my kids are 3.5 years apart. I don't know exactly what I would do if I had two kids closer in age at the park, one is playing and sharing well, and the other stars flinging sand in kids faces. Is it fair to pack up both kids and go home when only one is behaving badly?


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdahoMom* 
I expect obedience. I am the parent. My children are more secure and happier people when I give them boundaries and expectations. I just try to enforce those boundaries in the most gentle way I can. It's a process. . . I'm not perfect at it. But the better I get at gently maintaining consistent boundaries, the more peaceful our home is. If I either rule with an iron fist, or let things relax too much, things get chaotic and the children are more unsettled and unhappy.

I don't know where this idea came from that expecting children to obey those who are supposed to be teaching and raising them, who have ESSENTIAL LIFE EXPERIENCE, is somehow a bad thing. I figure it's better for them to learn lessons now, when the stakes are smaller, than when they're adults and consequences are more catastrophic.

This pretty much sums up my feelings and approach, especially because when I leaned too far into gentle parenting it felt super persmissive and the entire house was in chaos. My dd seems to need boundaries whereas my eldest was a much more laid back kid who worked well with the traditional gentle parenting strategies that are utilized by many here at MDC.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess* 
Well it's easy for me to say, "none really" to this one. except I have a very naturally well behaved child of 4 and a newborn. My son just doesn't throw toys or hurt people, it's not in his nature. He is very aware of himself, waits his turn and is gentle with others, especially babies and animals.

I have a friend with a son the same age. As lovable and sweet a boy you ever want to meet, with absolutely no concept of his own body or boundaries at all. he will hug a child so strongly he hurts them with his grip and pulls them both down on to the floor. When he wants to get to the top of the slide he will not even see the other kids on the ladder he is knocking past. There isn't any malicious intent behind it. it's just a lack of awareness.

I know some will say that I raised my son to be a conscientious playmate, or that he is just more mature than my friends kid. But really he has always been this way. I'm just lucky and he is a laid back little guy.

Your post really hit home to me just how much temperament plays a role, its reminds me of one day when we were at a friends house and dd had just turned 2 and she was all over the yard, not in a bad way just that I had to follow her to make sure she didn't get into trouble. Lots of redirection.

Anyway my friend asked why was I following her and would dd self direct away from danger and I was like no.. my friends kid is that gentle kid who does not push the limits but my dd will. I am at the point where I feel like when it comes to discipline, there are things that I absolutely would never do such as spanking or shaming. However some kids do require more boundaries, having had another kid who was not like that it took some time to realize why I felt like dd was running the show instead of feeling balanced. It was when I adjusted the discipline to her nature that things worked better for all.

Shay


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## colobus237 (Feb 2, 2004)

I don't expect unquestioning Stepford children who cower like beaten dogs before me. I do expect obedience - when I direct my children, I expect them to comply, and I will help them to do so if necessary. I'm the mom. I have an enormous responsibility for their safety and welfare. Responsibility and authority are two sides of the same coin. As they mature, I expect them to grow into greater responsibility for themselves and greater authority over their own behavior.

I don't agree that we need to treat our children as though they already have all of the wisdom and personal responsibility that we want to help them develop. They don't, yet, and it would be unfair and unwise of me to expect that. As they grow, I don't need to direct them as much, so there's not as much of a call for "obedience" - but there is still some. Even as an adult there are guidelines and structures that I am required to comply with. This doesn't stop me from respecting myself, thinking for myself, or discerning whether I should obey some harmful directive from an illegitimate authority. I don't think that expecting a reasonable level of obedience from children prevents any of those good things, either.


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## Mamato2and2 (Apr 7, 2006)

My kids must obey me....this is not to say that I am super strict or that I just bark out orders all the time, no, this is about listening in order to have a well run household. We ALL respect each other and it's my job as a parent to guide my children. I consider part of my guidance to be teaching them that in order for our house to function without tons of arguing, repeating, and unhappiness, that we all need to be in harmony, respectful of each other and realize that certain things need to get done (or not done) and to me that includes obedience. Of course, this is different with all my kids. The teenager pretty much listens and follows instructions...she will ask questions, I will explain. My 8 year old tends to not listen as well. I have to speak to her MUCH differently and let her fully know the expectations...otherwise we get nowhere and just argue. The 15 month old has no concept yet....he does give me things when asked and will stop doing something when asked. I consider all of this necessary for us to be happy. Every household functions different...we all need to find the balance that works for our particular situation.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdahoMom* 
I don't know where this idea came from that expecting children to obey those who are supposed to be teaching and raising them, who have ESSENTIAL LIFE EXPERIENCE, is somehow a bad thing. I figure it's better for them to learn lessons now, when the stakes are smaller, than when they're adults and consequences are more catastrophic.

from my own personal experience i "learn lessons" best when i experience them myself.

my ds "learns the lesson" to put his coat on when he goes outside and realizes he's cold. then he doesn't need to obey me every time i tell him to put his coat on.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
Would you see that as a positive thing (because you don't want them to be obedient, and they aren't)?

You tell dc no, they do it anyways. Is that lack of obedience perfectly fine with you?

the potted plant issue just came up the other night









what i realized was that he needed some attention and focus. first, we got out the vacuum and cleaned up the dirt and then i stopped reading my book and we did an art project.

i was crabby, and i said, "i'm crabby because there is dirt on the carpet. we need to clean it up NOW and then i'll be able to give you some more attention."

i guess the lack of obedience is difficult to deal with in the short term, but when i see the long term results of letting him make his own decisions it makes it easier. in fact, it's SO rewarding that i feel really confident in the way that i parent this issue.

my dp on the other hand has a difficult time when our ds doesn't listen to his "no".

but what i always come back to is this, "how would you feel if someone spoke to you in that way?" for the record, my dp HATES it when anyone tells him what to do so it usually works to remind him to work with our ds and not just command and expect immediate results.


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## JamieCatheryn (Dec 31, 2005)

I want my son to obey me, though when I tell him something at this point it's more "we're going to go do this now" and take him to it, he's a toddler and ther's no chance he'd follow through with a command or request alone. It's frusterating when he doesn't co-operate but I do have to appreciate his individuality and spirit.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

one thing that i've noticed that might hinder this discussion is that those who "expect obedience" aren't really putting an amount on it.

my initial response was, "almost none", by which i meant...when i say, "STOP" in the *voice* then he stops before he gets mowed down by a semi. but generally, i don't expect him to obey my every direction.

i'd say, around 2-4% of the time i expect him to do what i say without question.

so, i'm wondering if those who expect their children to obey would put a number on it?

it doesn't sound like anyone wants blind obedience 100% of the time so i'm interested in what % of the time you *do* expect your children to do what you say without question?


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## ShaggyDaddy (Jul 5, 2006)

I want my kids to agree with me and to take my suggestions and turn them into action, but I have to earn it every time. I am very serious about teaching them how to decide, and not necessarily *WHAT* to decide.

If I make a suggestion I expect them to disagree sometimes, I expect them to suggest alternatives, and relish the opportunity to have a discussion about it.

I just don't think obedience is a human trait, I hope my children will continue to question everything and make their own decisions, while weighing what they have been taught and what we have modeled. Obedience seems like a systematic subordination of another human being and that is not ok with me. I would mourn the day they stopped disagreeing with me.


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

I will leave out safety, because I think there are other reasons for obedience on a daily basis... Here they are...

I think it depends on interpreting "obedience". I don't like the word, but if I understand it as "following my requests", then I think I expect a healthy level of obedience. I won't tell the kids what to wear just because it's not my favorite shirt of theirs. I will not tell them what book to read. My requests will be reasonable: please clean up after yourself (so I don't have to after 12 hour workday), please brush your teeth, please stop screaming so that I can understand what you are trying to say.

If my kid is making a mess in someone's house, and I ask him to stop - I will expect him to stop. I sure hope he understands why I want him to stop.

If my kid is yelling in public and I ask her to stop, I'll expect her to stop. I sure hope she will understand why.

I don't walk around yelling "STOP this!" and "STOP that!". I'll ask "would you please try to clean up the mess you made, it would be nice to leave things neat when we visit", or "Please don't yell, no need to attract that much attention, look there is a baby sleeping nearby".

There are situation when time is of essence, and if I say "we need to leave in 5 minutes", and in 5 minutes someone starts saying "but I wannnaa stay", I'll be happy to discuss reasons in the car, but I will expect us to get in the car before the discussion.

To me all examples above are about obedience, and there is nothing wrong with it in that context. I do not believe it raises blindly obedient people incapable to stand up to authority, or makes them incapable to think for themselves.

I find it more damaging to the child to allow them do everything the way they want "Okay... you can yell your lungs out... I don't care it wakes a baby next to us", "yeah... we can leave our friend's house without cleaning up if you don't feel like it", "I explained grandma depends on us to give her a ride, but the heck I care! if you want to play for another 30 minutes - have fun, she'll wait!" Not what I see for my kids...


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## Stugroupie (Aug 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
For those who say "none" I have a question.
If dc was about to do something that had the potential to damage something or make a mess or really irritate someone (I dunno, throwing something hard, playing with the dirt in a potted plant, blowing a whistle close to you, etc) and you told them not to, and they did it anyways, would you seriously not mind? Would you see that as a positive thing (because you don't want them to be obedient, and they aren't)?
I'm talking, in the moment. You say stop, and they do it before you can talk about an alterative solution.

I know that hypotheticals are hard, but make it whatever you want. You tell dc no, they do it anyways. Is that lack of obedience perfectly fine with you?

Ah, yes... This is my issue as well. The suggestions about ways to avoid issues like this are great, but in my life, the reality is that there are times when my 4yo still disobeys. I will tell him not to leave the store until I am done putting the cart away, but he goes out the door anyway or I will ask him not to pour water on lil sister's head in the bath, but he does it anyway. Just some examples, but these things are biggies and I think they need to be handled right away, but not sure how. I can't think of logical consequences (maybe removal from the tub, but not sure that's fair if there wasn't a warning but can't think of anything for the store.)

My point is, what do you do when all the preventive measures fail and they still don't listen? That isn't OK with me, but what to do?


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

I just wanted to add that to me obedience out of trust is still obedience...

If I make a reasonable request, I expect it followed, be it out of safety (stopping to wait for me by the road), or because it is a right thing to do (cleaning up a mess at friends' house), and I hope my child will trust me enough to obey. I sure hope they don't obey people they don't trust.

P.S. And developing trust is a different discussion to me than expecting your reasonable parental requests followed.


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oriole* 

I think it depends on interpreting "obedience". I don't like the word, but if I understand it as "following my requests", then I think I expect a healthy level of obedience.

I'll ask "would you please try to clean up the mess you made, it would be nice to leave things neat when we visit",

i think you are correct about how we define obedience affecting this discussion. i would define it as "doing what i say, when i say it, without question"

in the above example you are _asking_ not telling. "would you" rather than "clean that up". by asking "would you" you are leaving the door open for the child to say "no" or to cooperate with you.

i would consider that encouraging cooperation not expecting obedience.

i use this technique a lot actually. often followed by a reason we need to do what i've asked if he says no.


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## Spanish Rose (Jan 29, 2007)

I place great value in obedience. I can think of at least five episodes in the last week alone where obedience has saved someone's life.

But to me, obedience means that you have a choice, and you choose to cooperate because you trust the person so much. That is our goal, anyhow, and it's very important in a family like ours.

As for simple compliance? That is convenient, and I do like it. But it's not worth anything in and of itself.


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## colobus237 (Feb 2, 2004)

Whenever I direct them to do something, I expect them to do it, but I don't give tons of directions all day long. Most of the time they are making choices about what they would like to do. I don't force them to put on coats or eat everything on their plates or otherwise control their every move by any means. I do use positive discipline techniques to encourage cooperation. But the bottom line is that participation is mandatory for certain daily activities.

So, if your question is, "During what percentage of the day am I actively making demands that I expect to be obeyed," the answer is <5%.
If the question is "What percentage of my 'direct orders' do I expect to be obeyed to the extent that I will follow through to be sure that they are obeyed," the answer is ~98%.
If the question is "How often do I expect that my 'direct orders' will be obeyed the first time I speak with no complaints," maybe 60%, but of course that depends on our moods, schedules, development.


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## MtBikeLover (Jun 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wannabe* 
Some. I don't want blind obedience, but I would like her to recognise that I'm reasonable, and that ususally what I suggest/ask is the most sensible thing.

I suppose you'd call that reasoned obedience rather than blind obedience, maybe?

This is how I feel too. I have no problem if they ask me why they can't pour water out of the tub onto the hardwood floors and I will answer them, but I do expect them to "obey" even if it isn't something they want to do.

Heck, we all have to obey certain things. i would love to be able to drive as fast as I want, but I have to obey the laws or pay the consequences. I would love to make all my own decisions at my job, but I don't own the company so i have to play by the CEO's rules.


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## greeny (Apr 27, 2007)

I expect and desire my kids to listen to me and do what I ask.

For example, if my ds is being rough with the cat, I tell him, "You're hurting the cat. Please stop," and I expect him to stop. (If not, I will physically remove him from the situation.)

If we're playing tickle, and he starts getting too rough, I will say, "You're getting to rough. Please be more gentle," and I expect him to be more gentle. (If not, I will stop playing.)

I also don't want to wait for 10, 15, 20 minutes for the kids to get their shoes or coats on. When I say, "Hey, we're going to leave in 5 minutes; let's all get ready!" I expect (well, desire, because it doesn't always happen!) them to listen.

If we're in the store and they're wandering too far from me, I expect that when I ask them to come closer, they will.

These kinds of things are non-negotiable for me, and I DO think obedience is desirable in these kinds of situations.

I mean, of course I don't want unthinking robots who do whatever I say. But trust me, we are in no danger of that happening.


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## Oriole (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greeny* 
I expect and desire my kids to listen to me and do what I ask.

For example, if my ds is being rough with the cat, I tell him, "You're hurting the cat. Please stop," and I expect him to stop. (If not, I will physically remove him from the situation.)

If we're playing tickle, and he starts getting too rough, I will say, "You're getting to rough. Please be more gentle," and I expect him to be more gentle. (If not, I will stop playing.)

I also don't want to wait for 10, 15, 20 minutes for the kids to get their shoes or coats on. When I say, "Hey, we're going to leave in 5 minutes; let's all get ready!" I expect (well, desire, because it doesn't always happen!) them to listen.

If we're in the store and they're wandering too far from me, I expect that when I ask them to come closer, they will.

These kinds of things are non-negotiable for me, and I DO think obedience is desirable in these kinds of situations.

I mean, of course I don't want unthinking robots who do whatever I say. But trust me, we are in no danger of that happening.

















:


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## IdahoMom (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *greeny* 

I mean, of course I don't want unthinking robots who do whatever I say. But trust me, we are in no danger of that happening.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PlayaMama* 
my ds "learns the lesson" to put his coat on when he goes outside and realizes he's cold. then he doesn't need to obey me every time i tell him to put his coat on.

This is an example of a time when I would now require obedience, but didn't used to. Getting all the kids ready to go outside is kind of a fiasco, but we have to feed and water our animals twice a day. So, if it's 20 degrees and dc doesn't want to wear their coat, I would like for them to learn this lesson themselves, and if I can carry their coat I will. But if not, I'm going to insist that they put it on.


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## EvansMomma (Mar 7, 2006)

I tihnk we're all kind of saying the same thing.
And I think asking a forum of GD moms what they expect in terms of obedience, you'll get a different answer than you would on a more 'mainstream' parenting site.

I don't imagine anyone who hangs out in a GD forum would expect instant and blind obedience with punishments if you even think about questioning.

It's great when Evan listens to me, and there are times when it's pretty much "just gonna happen" whether he's happy about it or not.

I think that's different than expecting 100% compliance. What most of us are talking about involved a lot of respect that goes both ways, and a lot of modelling proper behaviours instead of just demanding them.

I think it DOES make a difference how you are defining "obedience".


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## PlayaMama (Apr 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
This is an example of a time when I would now require obedience, but didn't used to. Getting all the kids ready to go outside is kind of a fiasco, but we have to feed and water our animals twice a day. So, if it's 20 degrees and dc doesn't want to wear their coat, I would like for them to learn this lesson themselves, and if I can carry their coat I will. But if not, I'm going to insist that they put it on.

i can see how having just the one (for now) makes a big difference in patience levels.

in my experience, and my son is just a little over 3, it takes forever for me to push him into his coat rather than letting him go outside for two seconds and come back inside saying he needs his coat because it's cold.

i guess, i just find the fiasco is a little less when i have his cooperation.


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## harmonymama (Feb 4, 2005)

I expect my children to listen and do what I ask them to do. For us it has not come easily, but they do now, most of the time. I just say, "When I ask you to do something, I expect you to do it." And then follow through 100%. I used to be more of the not really expecting obedience camp, but this becomes really problematic if you want to send your child to school, classes, with other adults, where everything cannot be negotiated. I don't expect blind obedience, or obedience 100% of the time, but I do expect it most of the time. I think children without boundaries tend to be more anxious and out of control, because they are trying to find the limits.


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## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

as so many have mentioned, the definition makes all the difference.

the word "obedience" at first makes me cringe. as i sit here and think about why, it's because i was brought up in an authoritarian, punitive household, and my parents expected me to obey without question. there was no mutuality, no explanation, and definitely no innate trust in the exchange.

now having my own child, and falling within the gentle discipline/unconditional parenting spectrum, the word and concept of "obedience" in the way that i experienced it in my own childhood does not have a a place in my parenting style. there is not authoritarian "you must listen to me, because i am your elder and your parent". there is no punitive "do what i say, or else (insert punitive consequence here)".

i'm confused about the assumption that without the expectation of obedience, a child has no boundaries/limits. that seems like such black and white thinking.


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## colobus237 (Feb 2, 2004)

For us, the expectation of obedience. and our authority as parents defines the boundaries. There is lots of room for discussion and choices, but in the end I'm the parent and I will prevent dangerous, destructive behavior, and I will insist on behavior that lets our family run smoothly (schedules, clean-up, etc.). Most of the time this doesn't need to be adversarial, but the expectation is there.

I guess I'm just as confused about the assumption that if I insist that my kids put their shoes on to come to the store with me, I will somehow raise broken-spirited children and eventually adults who have no ability to make their own decisions about when to put their shoes on and go to the store. It's a maturing process.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I don't know how much I expect. I think that kids do sometimes just naturally obey parental authority. Life would just go WAY less smoothly if ds didn't just obey sometimes.

Example from last night- we were going to go shopping. He walked around to my side of the van to get in (dp was driving). I told ds "Go get in daddy's side." And he was perfectly happy to obey. It was cold, and I would have been less than happy to have to explain to him WHY I wanted him to get in dp's side while I was standing out in the cold. I explained it to him after we all got in the car. (we have beverage containers to take to the bottle depot, and they fell out of the bags- so there are a years worth of pop cans just lying around by the passenger side back door).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Oriole* 
I think it depends on interpreting "obedience". I don't like the word, but if I understand it as "following my requests", then I think I expect a healthy level of obedience.

Yeah, I think the word "obedience" has some negative connotations. When I asked my dp this question, he said he didn't understand the question. lol. Basically, once he got past the word obedience, he said that he thought some obedience was necessary (this from the guy who I don't think has ever *made* ds do anything).

It's basically following commands/requests/guidance. My ds obeys me mostly because he trusts me, and he knows that I'm fair. But sometimes, I'm sure he obeys me because he knows that I'm going to stick with my request (though I will do what I can to make it pleasant for him to comply).
For example, leaving a friend's house. We've had trouble in the past leaving, and that just stresses me out. I do what I can to help- give notice, remind him of something fun waiting at home, help him get closure by cleaning up or saying goodbye, etc. But, in the end, I say "We're going, let's get your shoes on." And I expect him to comply. Even if he doesn't want to. But whether he leaves easily or not, I will play games on the way home (we walk), sing, run, carry him, whatever is fun for him.

It's hard to put a number on it. I really don't know. But I do what he wants, quite often. I'll stop what I'm doing and comply with what he's asked. I don't stop and ask questions about WHY first.
I expect him to comply with safety related requests. I guess that the rest are negotiable, but its nice that he obeys.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I don't think it's fair to call it a "request" if an answer other than "yes" isn't acceptable.


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## laoxinat (Sep 17, 2007)

For those whose children are fairly obedient, how responsive are you to your dc's requests? To me, this is key. I am betting that those who get quick responses from their kiddos have modeled that behavior by responding positively, more often than not, to their dcs' needs.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
I have no desire to raise obedient children. *Obedience is not a trait I value.*

I would no more want my children to be obiedient than my husband.

That said- if I call out in an urgent voice *STOP* I would think that both my children and my husband would stop.







Not obedience as much as trust.

-Angela

Bolding mine. HUGE







:!


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## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Yes to the above, too!

I heard someone say (maybe here?) that obedience is pretty much a one trick pony. Not the vast toolbox I'm hoping to set my kids up with.

Of course some days..........obedience, compliance, quiet, and a couple of stepford kids sound kind of nice.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laoxinat* 
For those whose children are fairly obedient, how responsive are you to your dc's requests? To me, this is key. I am betting that those who get quick responses from their kiddos have modeled that behavior by responding positively, more often than not, to their dcs' needs.

I don't know, I would have to be honest and say that my kids' needs are not met nearly as quickly or as frequently as other parents I know. And my kids seem to be at the same level of obedience. I don't intentionally neglect my children's needs, but it's just hard to get them all met all the time.

I think my kids are obedient of my requests most of the time because I have the continued expectation that they will be. And because when they aren't, I follow through and insist upon it. And because they aren't three.


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## babygrace (Aug 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ccohenou* 
I don't expect unquestioning Stepford children who cower like beaten dogs before me. I do expect obedience - when I direct my children, I expect them to comply, and I will help them to do so if necessary. I'm the mom. I have an enormous responsibility for their safety and welfare. Responsibility and authority are two sides of the same coin. As they mature, I expect them to grow into greater responsibility for themselves and greater authority over their own behavior.

I don't agree that we need to treat our children as though they already have all of the wisdom and personal responsibility that we want to help them develop. They don't, yet, and it would be unfair and unwise of me to expect that. As they grow, I don't need to direct them as much, so there's not as much of a call for "obedience" - but there is still some. Even as an adult there are guidelines and structures that I am required to comply with. This doesn't stop me from respecting myself, thinking for myself, or discerning whether I should obey some harmful directive from an illegitimate authority. I don't think that expecting a reasonable level of obedience from children prevents any of those good things, either.

makes complete sense. very well-put.


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## LotusBirthMama (Jun 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laoxinat* 
For those whose children are fairly obedient, how responsive are you to your dc's requests? To me, this is key. I am betting that those who get quick responses from their kiddos have modeled that behavior by responding positively, more often than not, to their dcs' needs.

We try to be very responsive. At least i do. DH is more of a "DO it NOW b/c I said so" type, which we are working on changing.


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## straighthaircurly (Dec 17, 2005)

I am not aiming for obedience, but I am aiming for learning respect and that the world does not only revolve around the wishes and desires of my son. He has a very strong personality which I love and respect. In our house, we say mom and dad are in charge of health and safety. He can have an opinion in everything else but he needs to be willing to compromise so that he is not disrespecting other people's wishes.

But I have to admit there have been some days when an tiny bit of blind obediaence would make it all sooo much easier.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laoxinat* 
For those whose children are fairly obedient, how responsive are you to your dc's requests? To me, this is key. I am betting that those who get quick responses from their kiddos have modeled that behavior by responding positively, more often than not, to their dcs' needs.


I guarantee it! I absolutely feel my kids respond to me the way they do because I have always given them and their needs an immediate response.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laoxinat* 
For those whose children are fairly obedient, how responsive are you to your dc's requests?

I'm very responsive to dc's requests, as is dp. (DP probably moreso. He does what ds wants, or finds a MAS if its at all possible.)

Our mornings are spent pretty much doing what ds wants (with some computer time for me in the process. lol). I do stuff for him when he asks, and I do things that he could well do for himself (I'll get him a banana if he's busy watching a cartoon). I was "spoiled" as a child, and I have that same tendency at times with ds.








Ds loves to go anywhere with either dp or me - grocery store, recycling place, etc. So we schedule our trips so ds can go. I make sure that I'll be making coffee after ds gets up in the morning, because he LOVES to push down the plunger (french press). His "chore" is bringing dishes in from the living room when I do dishes. The only reason it's his chore, is that he genuinely enjoys doing it. If he's busy playing, I do it myself (I don't even ask, because I know he'd do it, and I don't want to interrupt his play).

I do make a big effort to let him do things that would be inconvenient for me, even though I could possibly say no without much of a fuss from him. (ie, playing with water on the kitchen floor. lol)

It's hard for me to know how many demands I make of ds, because there's not often any objection from him. And I don't punish, so it's not a fear of punishment. I am sometimes guilty of using guilt-trips, but I'm trying VERY hard to stop that, and haven't used it much recently. (The more authoritative I get, the better I am at NOT yelling/shaming/guilt-tripping).


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## cheery (Jul 29, 2004)

Quote:

I guarantee it! I absolutely feel my kids respond to me the way they do because I have always given them and their needs an immediate response.








:

Though I can't always say I have responded "immediately" still I do convey that what she says and needs is important and worthy of prompt response. On the whole we don't have conflicts on day to day routines like eating, sleeping, getting ready, going places, grocery shopping, sharing with other kids, etc. I can very confidently take her anywhere, even concerts, etc.

Strange thing is, now at age 4, I notice that when she wants to say no or disagree with me (e.g. on not wanting to go to the bathroom or not wanting me to use a particular color crayon), she sometimes feels the need to shout, whine, etc .... I keep telling her to say no in the same calm and happy voice in which she says yes, that it is all right to have differetn views and talk about them. I have never shouted at her, so from where did she learn to shout "No!" etc?


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