# "I Trust in God" in my kid's Little League Pledge: WTF?!?!



## QueeTheBean

So, here we are, opening day of my DS's first ever Little League experience. He's 5.

Hordes of kids in their cute little uniforms march out onto the field for opening ceremonies. Introductions are made. Teams step forward. Parents cheer.

We listen to the National Anthem.

Then, the kids are asked to recite the "Little League Pledge". The Emcee says to say it "real loud."

Here it is:

I trust in God.








I love my country and will respect its laws.
I will play fair and strive to win.
But win or lose, I will always do my best.

Now, I am guessing this is some sort of national pledge that all LL kids make? I was totally shocked!! We are atheists and it is bad enough that my kid has to listen to the P. O. A. at school, but this was something else. Nothing in the sign-up materials prepared me for this.

DH is totally PO'd (as am I). I said nothing to DS---am sure that he had no idea what he was saying (but that's not the point).

I guess I am wondering if anyone else has kids in LL and do they say this pledge? What should we do about this? Does LL receive public funding, or is this like a Boy Scout situation?

Oh--BTW, I am not really looking to debate about why my kid should be "trusting in God", you know? I don't & won't & don't particularly want my kids to, either, so don't try converting me! (However, you have my permission to pray for my rotten stinking soul.)


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## QueeTheBean

Hot dang--it is on their website. It IS a national-level pledge!!!

http://www.littleleague.org/about/pledge.asp


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## Meiri

That sucks, is it church or sports?









Looks like they want it to be both.









I'd be telling my child, in this situation, to just stay silent through the first line. It is so NOT LL's place to force any religion on anybody.


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## oceanbaby

Wow, I have a problem with both the God line and the "I love my country and will follow it's laws" line.

I think it is exactly the point that 5 years old's don't know what this means. It's called brainwashing. Make them repeat something before they are even aware of what they are saying, and before they know it, it becomes a part of them.

We are aethiests as well, and my religious beliefs are just as important as a Catholic's religious beliefs. And I don't want my child pledging allegiance to any one country - I find it divisive and mean spirited. And I certainly don't follow laws blindly, and don't think my child should either.

I'm surprised no one has complained about this before. Religion is personal, and as I respect an individual's right to practice any religion in any way they choose, I deserve the same respect and not have it forced down my child's throat from every public institution.


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## PurpleBasil

Gross.

But indoctrination starts very young in terrorist countries, from what I've read. Important to raise patriots and the children are least likely to question, most of the time.


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## pugmadmama

Has there been a big problem with Little Leagers missing practice to attend Ameircan Atheists meetings? Or is the problem that 5 year olds were not following the laws of America while playing Little League? Somehow I missed that.

When I was homeschooling, my son wanted to join a soccer league. All the advertising made it look like it was just a sports league. But then when I got the sign-up packet, there were three pledges inside that my SO, myself and my son were supposed to sign promising to uphold "Christian ideals" and behave in "Christian ways". I was so angry I nearly called the head of it to ask "Why do I have to sign that? Are you planning on taking the soccer teams on a Crusade?"

Instead, after I cooled down, called and explained that we were not Christians and this whole thing could have been avoided if they simple put "Christian league" on their advertisments. The man I spoke to was very nice and apologized for the confusion.

We did not sign the pledges, our son was not able to play soccer and the next year I saw the exact same posters up with no metion of the fact that they exclude everyone put Christians. I don't understand that. Why not say who you are?

If the Little League is a monotheist organization, then they should just say that upfront.


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## Barbj

Quote:

Wow, I have a problem with both the God line and the "I love my country and will follow it's laws" line.
Yeah i would too! What is up with that??...That would p*ss me off..


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## Marlena

Ick. The first two lines are deeply problematic, as, with respect to children of LL age, they constitute rank indoctrination, rather than a statement of carefully formed belief.

That would really be lousy. If I were in your shoes, I'd likely reconsider whether I wanted my child to participate (but would probably come out in favor of participation, after explaining clearly to my child the issues with the pledge, at the level at which s/he could understand).


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## Alegria

Yup brainwashing. The part about the country isuke


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## QueeTheBean

Quote:

_Originally posted by oceanbaby_
*I think it is exactly the point that 5 years old's don't know what this means. It's called brainwashing. Make them repeat something before they are even aware of what they are saying, and before they know it, it becomes a part of them.*
Oooh--you're right. uke


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## SaveTheWild

urrggg. This kind of thing really gets to me. Why do they make it so hard to avoid religious indoctrination in our kids. At least some people are speaking out about it: here's an article http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...league04e.html

i am surprised that only afew people complain about it every year. I am going to try to write a letter to the headquarters. i am sure it won't matter, but I have to say something.


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## calgal007

Welcome to the New World Order. White Christians only need apply.


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## Greaseball

I would definitely complain, rather than just telling my kid to be silent. (Of course, if the kid loves god and country, that's another thing...)

What do sports have to do with god and country? I thought the point of LL was to play baseball, which one can do just fine while being a god-hating, lawbreaking flag burner.

Is there another baseball team for kids in town?


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## Pepper

How is it that this has not been legally challenged yet?

What a freaking outrage!


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## Britishmum

Being silent may make you or your child feel better, but it doesnt stop the brainwashing.

I keep being told that all I have to do over the POA when dds go to school is tell them to be silent. I object to the reference to God, but most of all I object to the brainwashing of children to become unquestioning 'patriotic' citizens.

Not saying a pledge is not enough. It's hearing it daily, not the saying of it, that is the brainwashing.

Trouble is that anyone who objects to this sort of brainwashing either in school, in Little League, soccer club or anywhere else, in this country is going to be a minority voice. The vast majority were brainwashed by it as children and so support it continuing. To protest is 'unamerican' or 'unpatriotic'.

I guess your options are to protest, to withdraw your child from the acitivity. Or to see if your child can be absent from the part where they make the pledge.

Don't think you're ever going to change the culture of these sorts of pledges thuogh. It's been too successful on previous generations for them to question it.







:


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## oceanbaby

Quote:

Trouble is that anyone who objects to this sort of brainwashing either in school, in Little League, soccer club or anywhere else, in this country is going to be a minority voice. The vast majority were brainwashed by it as children and so support it continuing. To protest is 'unamerican' or 'unpatriotic'.
This is what I've always found so ironic. To me, the most patriotic or American thing you can do is assert your right NOT to pledge your allegiance to any particular God, or any particular country, and especially not be forced to do it. Isn't that what America is supposed to stand for - freedom? It's the same reason I never understood the controversy over flag burning. America stands for the right to burn the flag. It's why this country was founded - by those seeking religious and political freedom.

Okay, that was a bit off topic.

Back on topic: Dh played Little League when he was a kid, and never remembers saying that pledge. I'm hoping that in our area (which is a fairly liberal area), it is not said, because dh wants ds to play Little League (if he's into it) and I would not be able to sit quietly while listening to my son say that pledge. I already know we're going to be in trouble once school starts with the POA.


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## MelKnee

I would be pissed, too.

If I were in your shoes, I would have a talk with my ds and tell him what the words mean, why LL wants him to say them, what my beliefs are and offer him some alternate words. Such as -

I trust in myself.
I live in this country and I will uphold it's Constitution.
I will play fair and strive to win.
But win or lose, I will always do my best.

Wow, the brainwashing does start early.


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## phathui5

If that's what Little League does on a national level and you don't like it, don't participate. Legally challenge it? Do we sue for everything here? America is a consumer society. If you don't like something, vote against it by not giving them your money.


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## Britishmum

"America is a consumer society. If you don't like something, vote against it by not giving them your money."








Does that go for schools too? Should all who disagree with the POA not send their children to school? Are our children simply consumers who need to vote with their feet?


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## Oh the Irony

Eeeeww! Yuck.

I


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## lotusdebi

Quote:

_Originally posted by oceanbaby_
*This is what I've always found so ironic. To me, the most patriotic or American thing you can do is assert your right NOT to pledge your allegiance to any particular God, or any particular country, and especially not be forced to do it. Isn't that what America is supposed to stand for - freedom? It's the same reason I never understood the controversy over flag burning. America stands for the right to burn the flag. It's why this country was founded - by those seeking religious and political freedom.
*

















I played in Little League 17 years ago, and I don't remember saying any kind of Pledge. I think I'd remember that, too. I was one of those people who boycotted the POA from an early age.


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## NocturnalDaze

Quote:

_Originally posted by Britishmum_
*
I keep being told that all I have to do over the POA when dds go to school is tell them to be silent. :*
Not necessarily...I was sent to the principals office for refusing to say the POA when I was in high school!!!


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## lotusdebi

Quote:

_Originally posted by Oceansummer_
*Not necessarily...I was sent to the principals office for refusing to say the POA when I was in high school!!!*
I was told that I could keep my mouth shut, but I had to stand for the Pledge (this was in high school). The principal even announced that students who didn't stand for the POA would be suspended from school. I talked to my homeroom teacher (a terrific American History teacher) about it. I explained that standing is a type of speech. I have the Freedom of Speech, according to the First Amendment, and I intended exercise it by sitting during the POA. Standing was essentially saying that I agreed with it, and I wouldn't do that. He told me that I had his permission to be late to homeroom every day... arrive just after the POA was said. He never marked me as tardy.









ETA: I just saw my post count - this makes 666


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## Mamid

We had that pledge in school growing up - at least in Ontario. Or was it the lord's prayer in french? Gez.. been so long I've forgotten it.







:

Anyway, in brownies, we had

Quote:

Oh lord my god thy kingdom calls grant us thy peace and bless us all...
and I wasn't christian or jew, yet I was expected to say this!









But of course, my mother never stood up for me. Ever.


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## jeca

WEll I'm not an atheist and still think it's out of line. I mean it's Little league baseball for pete's sake why would they even need to introduce that there?Definitly a bit much and I am very surprised not to have heard anything about it before now.


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## QueeTheBean

Thanks everyone for these replies. We are in the process of composing a letter--to whom it will go is undecided at this time.

Coincidentally, the president of our LL is our neighbor and the dad of my son's best friend. The coach lives down the street from us. Certainly makes things uncomfortable.

Quote:

_Originally posted by phathui5_
*If that's what Little League does on a national level and you don't like it, don't participate. Legally challenge it? Do we sue for everything here? America is a consumer society. If you don't like something, vote against it by not giving them your money.*
I never said anything about suing. I just think that it is out of line. Nothing in the sign-up literature led me to believe that Little League is a religious organization. If I had known that, I wouldn't have participated. Now, I'm invested--it was expensive for us to join, buy the uniform & equipment. I've put in a lot of volunteer time and time at practices. Sure wish I had known about it beforehand.

Also, FYI to everyone, the LL pledge "God line" was added in 1955, a year after God was added to the POA. The kids are NOT required to say it, but it makes us very uncomfortable, to say the least.


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## QueeTheBean

Quote:

_Originally posted by SaveTheWild_
*urrggg. This kind of thing really gets to me. Why do they make it so hard to avoid religious indoctrination in our kids. At least some people are speaking out about it: here's an article http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...league04e.html

i am surprised that only afew people complain about it every year. I am going to try to write a letter to the headquarters. i am sure it won't matter, but I have to say something.








*
This was a very interesting article. Thank you so much for the link. I learned a lot.


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## Pepper

Quote:

_Originally posted by phathui5_
*If that's what Little League does on a national level and you don't like it, don't participate. Legally challenge it? Do we sue for everything here? America is a consumer society. If you don't like something, vote against it by not giving them your money.*
I didn't say sue. I meant how is it that it is legal to 'require' young boys and girls to have to pledge allegiance to some 'God' in a _Little League_ sports organization. It just seems completely inappropriate to me. What has one got to do with the other. This isn't the Christian Little League organization! It should be removed from the pledge.

And to be honest, I don't understand the logic of 'if you don't like it, don't have your kids participate'. How weak is that?! So, if something is discriminatory, we should just ignore it? If one didn't like slavery, should one just have not had a slave? I know that is kind of an extreme analogy but it illustrates how that attitude is harmful and hurts the FREEDOM that America supposedly stands for. You know, the freedom that we are fighting for







: .

Anyway, I would never just ask my child to be silent or to not participate. But that's just me.

Quote:

*This is what I've always found so ironic. To me, the most patriotic or American thing you can do is assert your right NOT to pledge your allegiance to any particular God, or any particular country, and especially not be forced to do it. Isn't that what America is supposed to stand for - freedom? It's the same reason I never understood the controversy over flag burning. America stands for the right to burn the flag. It's why this country was founded - by those seeking religious and political freedom.*

I agree, oceanbaby.


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## SaveTheWild

Yeah, I agree that asking your kid to just stay silent isn't the right solution. Kids get traumatised over things very easily. They would much rather "fit in" and stand up and say itrather than to feel like a "weirdo outsider" by sitting it out. Kids shouldn't be put in situations where those are their only choices. They are both unaccepable "choices".

Also, although little league is a private organization and theorettcally can do what it wants, my guess is that they receive some kind of federal funding. (I don't know if that is true, but if it is then they should be subject to anti-discrimination/and first amendment issues). Also, little league basically has a monopoly on children's baseball. So its not like pwople can choose to have their kids join some other less discriminatory baseball league. They basically have to decide that their kids wont play at all. That's not fair.


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## Greaseball

Slightly OT, but what about Kidsports? Do they have other sports besides soccer, and are they religious wackos as well? My brother was in KS for years and I doubt my mom would have let him join if he had to say he loved god and country.

I think the patriotic stuff is nearly as wrong as the god stuff...

How would all the christians and america-lovers like it if they were told to "just be silent, but stand to show respect" for a pledge that said "Hail Satan and down with America!"?


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## QueeTheBean

Here's an excerpt from that Seattle Times article (about a Dad who pulled his kid out of LL bc. of this pledge):

_Thirty years ago, New Jersey Civil Rights Division hearing examiner Sylvia Pressler ruled Little League must accept girls, dismissing the organization's argument that it wasn't covered by anti-discrimination laws because it is a private club.

"The institution of Little League is as American as the hot dog and apple pie," Pressler said. "There is no reason that part of Americana should be withheld from girls."

But Van Auken said that, despite Little League's prominent place in American life, it remains a private organization entitled to its own rules and cannot be compelled to amend the pledge, especially since it is voluntary.

Stewart Jay, a professor of constitutional law at the University of Washington, said he agrees with that interpretation.

Little League has much more in common with the Boy Scouts than with public schools, he said. The pledge is likely constitutionally acceptable because Little League is not a government or state entity or closely affiliated with such an entity, Jay said._

So, it is a private org, but the courts forced them to allow girls to play . . .

Interesting.

You know, I didn't even investigate other places to play t-ball bc. of LL's monopoly on it all. We tried soccer, but my kid in so NOT athletic, it was just too rough for him (though it was not religious, BTW). I thought this would be a gentler sport--little did I realize what I was getting into.


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## QueeTheBean

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*How would all the christians and america-lovers like it if they were told to "just be silent, but stand to show respect" for a pledge that said "Hail Satan and down with America!"?*

:LOL

Maybe I should start an atheist league?

Hmm.. . what could the teams be called? The Madalyn Murray O'Hair's . . . The Godless?


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## pilesoflaundry

Quote:

_Originally posted by phathui5_
*If that's what Little League does on a national level and you don't like it, don't participate. Legally challenge it? Do we sue for everything here? America is a consumer society. If you don't like something, vote against it by not giving them your money.*
Well why should children who grow up in non-religious families have to avoid playing sports?

I'm not saying sue bcause I do agree this is a sue happy country but unless the league is sponsored or run by a religious organization there should be no religious referances or at the very least the children should not be forced to say something like that.

What if it was the opposite and children were forced to repeat "I do not believe/trust in G-d" before each game, I could bet you 100-1 that every religious/believing in G-d family would have a cow if the same children they bring to church each week with them were forced to deny it at a baseball game.


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## toddlermama16

Okay, I know this is an old thread, and I may be wrong here, but isn't Little League a PRIVATE orginization? And if it is, doesn't that give them the right to have whatever the heck they want in their pledge? It's not like children are forced into joining Little League.









I mean, I attend events at places that practice different religons than I do. I just choose not to participate in the parts I don't agree with. If I disagreed with what the pledge was saying (and I don't...), and I didn't want my child to repeat it, I'd simply have them stand quietly while it's being said.

Just my own two cents.


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## Irishmommy

Does it matter though if they have the monopoly on baseball in the city/state/whatever?


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## Unoppressed MAMA Q

didn't read all replies, but...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *QueeTheBean*

I said nothing to DS---am sure that he had no idea what he was saying (but that's not the point).



um, that IS the point, it's called brainwashing. that totally sucks, in my family it would be a great way to talk with my kids about how people don't always think. i would try to get them to think critically, and until i felt like they were able to UNDERSTAND it and conciously CHOOSE TO AGREE WITH THOSE SENTIMENTS, they would be instructed to remain silent, or sit down, or whatever they felt necessary.
i would have LOVED that kind of encouragement as a kid, i've never been a pledger of any kind!
praying to many gods that you dont' end up on a terrorist list...


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## rmzbm

: Wow~ Glad to see this, was thinking of signing DS up. I was so excited (& so was he) to be on a new Basketball team they have here locally...the paperwork came through school & we called the name that was on it to register...come to find out it's all run by a local church & you MUST tell them what church you attend and sign a form saying you believe & will uphold the LEAGUES beliefs & standards!! WTF?!?! Needless to say, we didn't sign up...DS was so upset.







And, for the record, I am a christian - but, for the love of all that which is sane...STOP FORCING YOUR BELIEFS ON PEOPLE!! I though I had enough problems with the whole pledge thing!!


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## kerikadi

I completely understand your concerns.
It is my understanding though that like the YMCA, Little Leage of America or whatever the title considers itself a Christian Organization. I understand that may not be the way you want your child taught but wouldn't you check that out first? For instance, before signing my children up for scouts, YMCA, preschool, a particular band camp, etc. I checked out their creed, 'moral code', and basically what they professed as their beliefs beforehand so I knew what I was in for. I would think that as parents it is our responsiblity to check into these things before we sign our children up for them.

Pease,
Keri


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## kerikadi

Adding to say that I am sure depending on the size of your town it can be difficult to find other options but look for what best suits your family before joining. In my area there are 4 different baseball options none of which are Little League of America but I think that they are likely the most known name. Your best bet may be contacting a homeschooling group. Even if you don't homeschool often times the parents in a homeschooling group will be more aware of the options available in your community.

Keri


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## Starflower

Interesting thread. I'm not an atheist or Christian. Don't know if DD will want to play baseball later or not. I knew about the scouts and all, but I didn't think I'd need to investigate the sports leagues for religious discrimination. Thanks for the heads up.


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## QueeTheBean

Quote:


Originally Posted by *toddlermama16*
Okay, I know this is an old thread, and I may be wrong here, but isn't Little League a PRIVATE orginization? And if it is, doesn't that give them the right to have whatever the heck they want in their pledge? It's not like children are forced into joining Little League.









I mean, I attend events at places that practice different religons than I do. I just choose not to participate in the parts I don't agree with. If I disagreed with what the pledge was saying (and I don't...), and I didn't want my child to repeat it, I'd simply have them stand quietly while it's being said.

Just my own two cents.

Well, if you are going to pull up an old thread, the least you could do is actually *read* it.







: Your same point was made 4/18/04 by phathui5. Yes-LL is private & yes they have the right to praise Satan himself if they want to-the point is that none of the God stuff was referenced in their sign up materials.

As I replied to phathui5, by the time the God pledge was said on opening day, I'd already invested quite a good deal of money and time-not to mention my son's time practicing. If they'd made it clear that it was a religious thing from the get-go, we never would have signed up. Little League?? I never even thought to investigate--I am wiser now.

I mean--how would you feel if you signed up your child for a dance class--spend $$ on outfits, shoes--participated in fundraisers, helped paint the inside of the practice room--attended dozens of rehearsals--only to find on performance night that the kids have to take a vow to Madeline Murray O'Hare???

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Unoppressed MAMA Q*
didn't read all replies, but...
um, that IS the point, it's called brainwashing. that totally sucks, in my family it would be a great way to talk with my kids about how people don't always think.

Right-we covered that way back in 4/2004-someone said pretty much this same thing & I conceded that it was true . . .

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kerikadi*
I understand that may not be the way you want your child taught but wouldn't you check that out first?

Well, yeah--but I don't think it was unreasonable not to suspect a national level t-ball league of having religious ties. It just did not even occur to me to do this for a sports team.

Have learned since then & become much more aware and sensitive to such issues. God is _everywhere_ . . . .


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