# Simply Insist?



## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

I'll admit it - I'm a skeptic about philosophies of discipline that do not include punishment ever. Can someone give me some ideas about this problem for example:

dd (2.5 years) is intolerant of wheat - she is always sneaking in the pantry and finding things that have wheat in them to feed herself - the result is not good - loose stools and diaper rash

OK - so GD not punishment, I need to remove all wheat foods to higher shelves (but she has recently started climbing) - put a lock on the pantry door? - but this doesn't really teach her anything...

I insist a hundred times a day that she get out of the pantry (or let go of the cat, or leave the diaper wipes alone...). How do I *teach* her to stop - without getting into behavior modification that that Alfie guy is so against?

I guess I do believe that some behavior must be modified. I had to modify my behavior when I discovered that I was gluten intolerant for example. But I'm old enough to link the natural consequences to the action. DD is not. I can't expect to modify her behavior until she can understand this natural consequence?

Just curious


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

I don't know that 2.5 is really old enough to "get" why she can't have what everyone else can have. I mean, you can tell her and she can repeat it back but she may not really get it. The time between eating the treat and having the problems is probably too long for her to really make that connection. And then there is immediate gratification v. self control. I'm an adult and I'm not so good at those.

I would either not have it in the house or lock it away somewhere and pretend it's not in the house. I'd just totally remove it from her world so she didn't have to think about it - until she was old enough to get it. You know, 37 or so









Really, I think this is too much temptation for a little one to self-govern.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NiteNicole* 
Really, I think this is too much temptation for a little one to self-govern.









:

I think at that age it's just mean to expect her to have that much impulse control. I agree that taking it out of her world is the way to go.

-Angela


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## warriorprincess (Nov 19, 2001)

I third that. Even with older kids, with a food/health issue, you need to make it not accessible.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I'd keep the wheat stuff out of the house- who knows how many other family members may benefit from a wheat-free diet if there's gluten intolerance in the family?


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

"baby-proofing" is really "toddler-proofing" cause those are the ages where they can get into the most stuff.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I recently read an article on preschoolers and self-regulation of energy intake. My dd1 is allergic to wheat...we don't keep it in the house at all. Having things in the house that they can't have may lead to problems with self-regulation and food.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...ull/106/6/1429


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## Cheshire (Dec 14, 2004)

My son is almost 3. Probably around 2.5 we started trying out "simply insisting." One of the books recommended on MDC has a part in it where the author talks about just putting it out there and then remaining there until it is done. Like "Charlie, it's time to brush your teeth" and then just hang out until he goes into the bathroom.

That is probably not the best example but I think it is what you're asking about. It has been hit or miss for us. I think we are having to find the right opportunities to use it (when he will be most receptive). It does work but it probably works better for an older child.

Keep trying as she gets older but right now you are still in for a lot of re-directing. Just because she keeps doing it doesn't mean she needs punishment or behavior modification - just means she needs you to keep reminding her so that it will sink in and she will get it on her own. Toddlers just need lots of reminders.


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## BamBam'sMom (Jun 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
I guess I do believe that some behavior must be modified. I had to modify my behavior when I discovered that I was gluten intolerant for example. But I'm old enough to link the natural consequences to the action. DD is not. I can't expect to modify her behavior until she can understand this natural consequence?


Have you read up on this subject? I had a hard time understanding it when I heard it discussed here. It made more sense to me when I read Unconditional Parenting, Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves, and Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline.

Do you really think punishing her would keep her out of the things she's not supposed to have? All the time? I remember doing things I wasn't supposed to after being punished, sometimes just to prove to myself that I could. I became great at being sneaky.

If it's a health issue, it would definitely be better to just not let her know it's there.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Hmm, thank you for your thoughts! I was thinking more about it. I really don't want her going to the pantry for food at all. But then I was thinking - maybe I should place out some food for her to graze. But when I give her grazing food, she usually plays with it all over the house. How do I give her a place to graze without having cheerios stuffed into toys, etc?

And, hmm, yes, I have seen signs of her starting to sneak to do things when I'm not looking - just to avoid "redirection". I guess my thinking was that she doesn't have a good enough reason to not do it at all, and maybe punishment would give her that reason. But you're right, I don't know that punishment really is enough reason. I remember as a kid being willing to take spankings in order to do things I wanted to do. (Neither my sister nor I really had any problem with spankings.) Yeah, I do have a hard time understanding how to make it work since I have never seen it successfully demonstrated.

She's a smart, strong willed child. She already shows alot of empathy which I've been able to use to teach her. But there are certain little things she is bound and determined to do, that I'm bound and determined she not do, that we go around and around with every day. Like the diaper wipes, she has to take them out of the box every single day. Mom says I should get her a box of wipes of her own, and put mine away. But I like to have mine at close reach. Why don't they make baby wipes with babyproof lids?


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Babies do annoying stuff. I just work around it for a few years until they aren't so little. I have a 2.5 year old and 6 year old. If the 2.5 year liked wipes, I'd get her wipes. Or let her take mine out, then just put them in a zip lock bag.

It seems like with 2 year olds you could go stark raving mad if you sweat the small stuff. Maybe that's just me.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 

It seems like with 2 year olds you could go stark raving mad if you sweat the small stuff. Maybe that's just me.

A big fat







:

Really. If you don't want her in your wipes, put them where she can't get them









-Angela


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
But there are certain little things she is bound and determined to do, that I'm bound and determined she not do, that we go around and around with every day.

I'd let it go. Setting a patten of power struggles spells trouble to me.


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## arwenevenstar (Mar 25, 2005)

I totally empathise with you, I could have written some of your post!!

I have changed my own attitude though over the years. I agree, if you sweat the small stuff you will start huge power struggles.

My house now consists of stuff that at the end of the day........it's washable, wipeable, repairable, edible (to a degree!) the areas that are out of bounds ie: full of the stuff that may be a danger to her, or I really don't want her to have,I am afraid are behind lock and key.

I second your mom, get her her own diaper wipe box, let her decorate it, make it prettier than yours, special. maybe with food you can have snacks out for her, but also have a nice placemat and bowl that she can put the snack into etc that encourages her to stay in one place to eat? Just some thoughts.


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## Ltlfaery (May 21, 2005)

dd loves to take out the diaper wipes one by one. So I let her take out a few when she gets a hold of them. Then I just bunch them up and put them back. I let that one go often.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

An analogy I like to use is this: your child will probably need to learn how to drive a car one day, right? But would you try to teach her that now? No. You know she's not mature enough or old enough to master such skills. So you cart her around until she is.

You know she needs to read one day. Are you concerned that she won't ever read because she can't read at age 2.5? Probably not. You understand that she is too young to learn how. She doesn't have the mental skills necessary to read. But you know she will.

A child of 2.5 is simply neither mature enough nor mentally developed enough to exercise the sort of control over her behaviour you are attempting to "teach". If you stop thinking of her behaviours as something you need to "fix" and instead think of them as age-appropriate, then not using punishment makes a whole lot more sense.

Punishment may work with young children in some circumstances, but only because you are addressing their self-preservation instinct. This sort of learning is not related to the sort of learning you are wishing to achieve. They are totally different "brain paths", if you will. You still aren't teaching her anything, except survival skills for avoiding punishment in the future.

Anyways, I know what you mean b/c once I was skeptical too. I found it helpful to recognize that GD is based on age-appropriate behaviours and expectations, something about which our society at large seems woefully ignorant.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Is she getting in the pantry because she's hungry? or is it because the "offlimits" food sounds good to her?
If leaving snacks out for her isn't a great option (which, I'd get aggravated if good got wasted on a regular basis too. lol), then perhaps you could focus on the fact that if she wants food, all she has to to is ask you for it. When she gets into the pantry, remind her that if she wants food, to just ask you.

Is there any way to clear out the top of ALL of your cupboards in the kitchen, and put the wheat containing food up a the top, so it would all be out of sight? You'd have to rearrange probably, but it seems like rearranging would be less work that what's happening currently.
I do that with candy and sweets. Keep them in the highest spot in the cupboard, and back so ds can't see it from either the floor or if he's up on the counter. That doesn't mean he never asks for it, but it does help with the impulse sugar eating. lol


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Thanks so much for your thoughtful ideas!

Couple thoughts - I think sometimes it is hard for me remember what is age appropriate behavior for dd, because she is very sharp. She communicates very well, she takes direction very well and has from a very early age, and she was never a kid to be into everything - you could have a china vase nearby and tell you "don't touch" and she would not touch it. But once the 2s came, life changed. She is testing every boundary I set. She doesn't take out the wipes in front of me - she sneaks them behind my back and takes every single one from the box. She waits til I'm not looking to sneak in the pantry, etc. It seems to me that she *does* understand the boundaries, but her will to do what she want is strong. I guess perhaps what she is trying to discover right now is how firm boundaries really are?

One day I had walked out of the room and had left a newborn baby goat in the living room with her. She was playing with the wipes again, and broke the lid to the box. She brought it to me and said "goat broke this." Obviously the boundary was in her brain!!

But I don't want to start power struggles. I just want to say "this is the boundary and that's it." So maybe putting the wipes in a container she can't open and putting a slide bolt on the pantry door?

Another thing that is bugging me a little is somewhere she picked up this idea of "mine" and "yours". If I take something away from her, she says "that's yours?" Often I say "no, it's *ours*, but we don't play with this; it's not a toy." I'm afraid the backlash of "mine" and "yours" will be not wanting to share. Instead I want her to understand the purpose of things.

I saw a show last night with a family that eats everything raw (including chicken) and don't clean, because they don't want to destroy helpful bacteria. I thought - that is a good example of someone taking a good idea so far that they turn other people off. I think that has been my experience with GD. The people I have known in real life who claimed to practice "GD" couldn't even go to dinner with us, because they couldn't control their children enough to take them out to eat (and they had a big problem with the word "control"). But I'm starting to see that there is an art to it, and you can GD your kids and still have an orderly family life.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

I can definitely see how one could claim to be gd, while being "gentle" and not doing much in the way of "discipline."
I do focus a lot on how ds's actions affect others. That would include how he is affecting other patrons in a restaurant. So, yelling loudly or throwing food in a restaurant would NOT be acceptable. But he knows that, and so far it has never been an issue, because he does care about how his actions affect others. Though, he is 2.5yo and there are definitely times he places his desires ahead of others' desires (heck, all people do that). lol.
(ftr, we don't punish/reward)
I can see that a family could, in the name of gd, not give their kids that type of information, and not expect their kids to behave in certain ways and be respectful of other people.

If she's trying to avoid redirection, perhaps it would be beneficial to focus on redirecting to something related. That way, she sees that you do care about what she wanted, and that you are trying to find a way for her to do it, that is agreeable to you as well. You want something that will work for both of you.
So, when she gets in the pantry, redirect her to a special cabinet that has only food that she CAN eat.
When she gets into the wipes, redirect her to a wipes box of her own (if it were me, I'd fill it with cloth wipes so I didn't stress about wasting them).

I agree with the "yours" and "mine" thing. I try to explain in detail to ds the why's of everything. "I worry that will get damaged because its so fragile. I'd rather we keep it on the shelf and just look at it." He seems to respect real reasons pretty well. (especially "that's a choking hazard" lol for some reason, that particular phrase means A LOT to him. lol. perhaps because every time I say it, that means that particular item is NOT an option, no way no how.)


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

There is no permanent "mine" to a two year old. When they ask mine?,they are asking if it's okay for them to have it right now. You can say, sure, you can play with that. The permanent "mine" doesn't kick in until later.

They can't actually "share" until the concept of the permanent "mine" kicks in,so it's a great milestone when at 3 they refuse to share. It's pre-genuine sharing behavior.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

I would suggest that you read:
Your Two Year Old by Louise Ames Bates (Bates Ames?)
Parenting with Purpose by Lynda Madison - she's a bit too much into rewards for older kids for my taste, but she's got really good information on what to expect for the 1-3 age range.

I'm most concerned about your attribution that your daughter is 'sneaking' things. She's 2 1/2. She's not capable of sneaking. She thinks that if you cannot see her, you do not know. I remember my niece at that age wanting to jump backwards off a tall slide into a small, shallow swimming pool. I told her to slide down, that jumping backwards was dangerous. She climbed up on the slide again and said to me "close your eyes". She was very surprised when I said, "I will not close my eyes so you could jump backwards." It was clear that she thought I wouldn't know what she was doing.









There's a difference between recognizing boundaries and being able to withstand the impulse to get what you want. 2 year olds have little, if no, impluse control. They think it, they do it. Period. That's not bad, that's not sneaking, that's 2. A 5 year old should be able to resist the temptation, but not at 2 1/2. But then, my 5 year old can also understand that I don't want the wipes wasted because they're expensive and it's a waste of resources.

Think too about how appealing 'forbidden fruit' is. If it's not something that will harm her (i.e wipes), if she can play with the stuff and get it out of her system, why not? Our dd went through a lotion phase. So, I moved the expensive lotion I didn't want her to have, and put out the huge bottle of Lubriderm. She slathered it on about once a week for a few months. She hasn't touched it in months.

In addition, it sounds to me like you're making battles over some things that inconvenience you, but aren't really that important. I do think it's unreasonable to expect a 2 year old to listen to a verbal boundary. Think of a lock or moving things as a physical boundary. As her understanding and self control increase, you can redirect her more verbally. But 2 1/2 year olds are PHYSICAL learners -- that's why they touch everything. So, create a physical boundary. Parenting a toddler (and she's still a toddler), and even a preschooler is a hands-on experience. It's hard to do from the couch!

When our dd is not doing something that we need her to do, I will help physically direct her body. I'm gentle about it, but I do it. So, at clean up time, I will go and physically put a block in her hand. If I've asked her to turn off the dvd player (the child is OBSESSED with kids music videos), and she doesn't, I will walk over and turn it off and move the DVD player. If she's pooped in her diaper before bedtime, I'll give her a two minute warning and then come take her hand to lead her upstairs. I know that some people here object to that, but for us, it works. It's also not that frequent. But she needs my presence there to get her going. It's not bad, it's just 2.

I would suggest that you buy the child her own box of wipes! That way when she wants to play with wipes, you can redirect her to HER OWN BOX. You don't have to call it 'hers' or 'mine', you can say "The wipes in the blue box are for playing with. The ones in the white box are for cleaning with." Then she can open, close, take out, stuff back in or do whatever she wants with the play wipes. You can then have yours close at hand.

She's not old enough to understand the link between wheat and a rash. Heck, I'm 40 and nutella gives me hives. I still will 'sneak' some nutella some days. I love the stuff. And then I get hives 12 to 24 hours later. If that connection isn't strong enough to dissuade me, a reasonably rational, adult, who KNOWS that the darn stuff gives me hives, how do you expect a 2 year old, with less impulse control, and no forward thinking to be able to do it? Move the wheat! Lock it up. This is a health issue.

Our kids have pretty free access to snacks. We keep bowls down low for them to put things in. They are required to eat on the wood floor (kitchen/dining room), and it's a rule my 2 1/2 year old learned by 18 months. No, they don't always remember, but then it's a simple, gentle, 'stay on the wood' reminder. Yes, I get food dribbled on the floor. But hey, they do that when they eat at the table. And I dribble more!

Life with kids is messy.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68* 
An analogy I like to use is this: your child will probably need to learn how to drive a car one day, right? But would you try to teach her that now? No. You know she's not mature enough or old enough to master such skills. So you cart her around until she is.

You know she needs to read one day. Are you concerned that she won't ever read because she can't read at age 2.5? Probably not. You understand that she is too young to learn how. She doesn't have the mental skills necessary to read. But you know she will.

A child of 2.5 is simply neither mature enough nor mentally developed enough to exercise the sort of control over her behaviour you are attempting to "teach". If you stop thinking of her behaviours as something you need to "fix" and instead think of them as age-appropriate, then not using punishment makes a whole lot more sense.

Punishment may work with young children in some circumstances, but only because you are addressing their self-preservation instinct. This sort of learning is not related to the sort of learning you are wishing to achieve. They are totally different "brain paths", if you will. You still aren't teaching her anything, except survival skills for avoiding punishment in the future.


Brilliant. Simply brilliant.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 

Life with kids is messy.

Tell it, sister.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
I'm most concerned about your attribution that your daughter is 'sneaking' things. She's 2 1/2. She's not capable of sneaking. She thinks that if you cannot see her, you do not know.

I guess I define sneaking deferently - she understands the boundary, and she is able to demonstrate self control as long as I am with her. When she thinks I can't see her, then she disregards the boundary. That *is* sneaking. She's not trying to be dishonest - no, she's not focused at all on what mommy thinks or feels about what she is doing, but she is demonstrating that she is capable of exercising self control under some circumstances (when she knows mommy is there to redirect her). I do know that 2 year olds think if they can't see you then you are not there. We had a good laugh one day because she thought if she covered her eyes, she disappeared. We always make her look at us when we are giving an instruction, because we know she thinks if she does not see us, she does not have to listen.

I guess I got spoiled about the being able to give verbal boundaries - she listened so well when she was in the second year, I took if for granted that she was just really good about that. But now things are getting really tough - she will climb to get things, so if it's not locked in a cabinet....

I guess things that inconvenience me do sound "little", but they aren't little when I have a high need toddler and a high need infant to contend with. I need my diapering supplies to be there when I need them. The house looks like a human waste dump already - I just don't need wipes all over the house! And heaven forbid she get her hands on the diaper cream!!! I came in one day to find her doll babies smeared with diaper cream and burried in a mountain of wipes. Yes, kids certainly are messy.

Of course, I know that she can't understand that wheat gives her diaper rash - my point in bring that up was that there are times when you can't simply wait for "natural consequences".

I think dd does have the idea of permanent "mine" already. If I take something away from her like her sippy cup in order to put her coat on, she will scream "mine, mine, mine!" She will take a toy away from her brother and claim "mine". If I tell her no it's ds's, then she will hand it back to him and say "this is yours" or depending on the mood, she might insist that "this is mine."

I don't know - think alot of people don't give 2 year olds enough credit - when a kid can understand the boundary, understand the consequence and then tell a "lie" in order to hide the consequence... they can understand all that but can't be expect to control their impulses at any level? Every single thing we don't want them to touch has to be padlocked? Or we have to just live in caos? That gets back to my story about my friends who couldn't take their kids out to eat - we sit dd at the table and push things out of her reach, she's not climbing across the table to get them. She understands that we said no and that is it. If she stands in the high chair, we tell her sit, and she does.

There are lot's of ways that dd takes direction - I tell her to pick up her toys and sing a clean up song - I don't have to do the work for her. She will do it. At 18 months I put the blocks in her hands, but not at 28 months, at 28 months, she can do it herself (and usually insists that she does).

I guess I'm still getting around to my question - when it is time to go beyond redirection and physical boundaries (at whatever age you think that is appropriate), what is the technique? You know if I say "no" and she doesn't Supernanny will say "giver her a warning, and the second time put her in the 'naughty seat.'" With GD, you say "no", then what? Simply insist?


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Can you set up messy activities in the kitchen for her?


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
Can you set up messy activities in the kitchen for her?









Yeah, you know it might not be a bad idea to have a baby doll diapering station on the back porch!!


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:

I guess I define sneaking deferently - she understands the boundary, and she is able to demonstrate self control as long as I am with her. When she thinks I can't see her, then she disregards the boundary. That *is* sneaking. She's not trying to be dishonest - no, she's not focused at all on what mommy thinks or feels about what she is doing, but she is demonstrating that she is capable of exercising self control under some circumstances (when she knows mommy is there to redirect her).
What she is demonstrating (what I see, anyway) is that she only understands that mom doesn't want her to do the forbidden thing--she doesn't fully understand *why* it is forbidden. So, if mom's not around, it's ok to do. The goal with traditional discipline is getting a child to obey. The goal with GD is to teach a child to be self-disciplined.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
You know if I say "no" and she doesn't Supernanny will say "giver her a warning, and the second time put her in the 'naughty seat.'" With GD, you say "no", then what?

Then you help them do it. You guide them.

The Supernanny model of discipline is based on the belief that parenting is control vs. chaos. Parents must have the Upper Hand or the children will _take over_ and do all the bad things all children wish they could do. Gentle Discipline, on the other hand, is based on the belief that children are inherently good and have reasons for their behavior, and that discipline means guiding and teaching--not controling.

Quote:

I guess I got spoiled about the being able to give verbal boundaries - she listened so well when she was in the second year, I took if for granted that she was just really good about that. But now things are getting really tough - she will climb to get things, so if it's not locked in a cabinet....
It's just that she's gotten smarter and she's curious--not a bad thing, but it does make mom's job harder.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Ah, thanks sunnyside up - that's starting to clarify it for me. It's the difference between teach my dog not to chew my shoes and teaching my child that shoes are important and we need to take care of them. She thinks the problem is "mommy seeing me do X", rather than "mommy doesn't want me to do X".

Hmm, and this supernanny thing is like the "Alpha" thing with animals - I've got to establish I'm top dog. Rather than partnering with animals....

I just bring up animals, because it seems like alot of the "Behavorist" stuff is identical to training animals - and also I've been studying "GD" for dogs and horses - it doesn't even produce the best animals....

Thanks!


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## libranbutterfly (Jan 12, 2007)

I havent read all of the responses, but I could have written your post. I let DD graze, I keep small baggies of snacks in the fridge. I also got her a wipe box with silks and washrags in it. I fold them together so that she can pull them out one at a time, like my wipes, and if she gets mine, I redirect her with hers, then put mine out of reach


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

2bluefish said:


> She thinks the problem is "mommy seeing me do X", rather than "mommy doesn't want me to do X".
> 
> 
> > You know what, I don't even agree with what I wrote here. I think that is too simplistic - it is deeper than that. How can we expect our child to be self disciplined when as a family we are not (enough). Daddy leaves his clothes all over the floor. We don't pick up toys with any regularity. The laundry sits on the couch for a week. The dishes pile up...
> ...


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
How about mommy and daddy proofing the house?









We really need to do that too.

Quote:

I'm going to focus on this idea of self discipline rather than "obedience" - I think it is a good direction for us...


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

I've found it's so much more important what we actually do ourselves rather than just what we say. Being a parent has helped underscore the importance of 'walking the talk' because they'll eventually call you on it









Kinda like right now...I've got my tea sitting right next to my laptop...and water will ruin my computer if it accidentally gets spilled...so....I'm moving my tea right now


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
She understands the boundary, and she is able to demonstrate self control as long as I am with her. When she thinks I can't see her, then she disregards the boundary. That *is* sneaking.

That is one explanation. There are several others that would fit your scenario, but lead you to very different conclusions. So how can you know which interpretation is correct?

Well you don't have to guess because there is decades of really good science behind what we know about children and their development. I can assure you that your 2.5 year old is not "sneaking" by any sense of the word, nor is she "able to exert self control when you are with her". She is simply much too young. Alot of GD is based on solid scientific evidence backed by many, many years of very well-designed studies about what children are, and are not, capable of.

Quote:

We always make her look at us when we are giving an instruction, because we know she thinks if she does not see us, she does not have to listen.
Hmm. See I would always make sure she looked at me, too. But I would never consider a 2.5 year old capable of forming the thought "If I don't see them say it then I am not required to comply". Instead I would suggest that 2.5 year olds are easily distracted and it helps them to focus on you if you connect with them in some way first (Gordon Neufeld calls this "collecting") and making eye contact is a great way to do that.

Again it's all about the interpretation. When you go into a situation with preconceived notions about what a 2.5 year old is capable of, you are generally going to see what you want to see (thus the older generation will often be convinced that a baby is showing clear signs of manipulation by crying to be picked up).

Quote:

I guess I got spoiled about the being able to give verbal boundaries - she listened so well when she was in the second year, I took if for granted that she was just really good about that. But now things are getting really tough...
Again, this has nothing really to do with her or her intentions. Young kids don't often grasp that there IS an option to do otherwise. My DD was also very compliant and willing to please until she was around 2.5 and then WOW what a change. They finally start to figure out that they are separate beings and can create a separate reality from what you are telling them or showing them. Neufeld explains it so well in his book "Hold On To Your Kids" (in the end part about nurturing attachment) what this mental process is and how it develops and why we see the behaviours we do.

Quote:

I don't know - think alot of people don't give 2 year olds enough credit - when a kid can understand the boundary, understand the consequence and then tell a "lie" in order to hide the consequence... they can understand all that but can't be expect to control their impulses at any level?
Again, this isn't some hippy concept of children. This is backed by literally decades of very extensive research. There is a lot of literature on this if you are interested. Kids that age cannot lie. Heck, they really can't lie until they are 7. You'll probably scoff at that but again there are some very very convincing experiments designed to test such things that quite clearly show they can't. They simply don't "get" the difference between reality and fantasy.

The region of the brain that allows us to control impulses is the frontal cortex. This region is underdeveloped in young children and doesn't reach maturity until around 5 or so. So no, they don't have impulse control. Read up on child brain development - a fascinating subject! It's amazing what perceptions we adults take for granted. The Universe of your 2.5 year old is a very different place from your own. It's hard to remember that!

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Every single thing we don't want them to touch has to be padlocked? Or we have to just live in chaos?
First, it's impossible to put everything out of reach, but if you put most of the stuff away it makes your daily life easier and makes for less clashes. Maintaining the peace should be a primary goal. And you don't have to live in chaos, you just have to plan things out a bit better.

And don't forget, this doesn't last forever. In another year or so your child will be a completely different person with different abilities and you won't have to babyproof so much.

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I guess I'm still getting around to my question - when it is time to go beyond redirection and physical boundaries (at whatever age you think that is appropriate), what is the technique?
There are so many techniques that don't involve punishment or coercion or power struggles. It really depends on your child and the specific situation. My suggestion is to read this forum as situations come up and hear the different ways that people deal with them.

The goal is to move from redirection to involving them in problem solving. It's not a one-step process, but it is possible. But I've blabbed way too much already so I'll save that for someone else to answer.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
I don't know - think alot of people don't give 2 year olds enough credit - when a kid can understand the boundary, understand the consequence and then tell a "lie" in order to hide the consequence... they can understand all that but can't be expect to control their impulses at any level?

I do agree with that, to some extent. I could never understand how people could say that young kids have no impulse control. After all, my ds DID seem to have quite good impulse control (even at 18 mos).
But then I realized that I always gave him acceptable alternatives (that honored his impulse), instead of just saying "no" to doing whatever, and instead of distracting him to something unrelated. So he wasn't really controlling his impulse, it was more that he was controlling how he was *expressing* that impulse. Does that make sense? He knew that if he wanted to bang on something, that the dog was offlimits, so he'd redirect himself to bang on the couch, for example (after I showed him that particular redirection a few times).
Almost every issue that has come up, has been resolved within a short period of time with ds, by trying to find acceptable alternatives, and mutually agreeable solutions (the exceptions would be whining and teethbrushing, but we are definitely getting somewhere on the teethbrushing thing).
And I agree with Piglet that we are definitely moving towards problem solving together I've never just left it at "oh, this is a normal phase, he wouldn't understand the boundary" etc etc. And I've never used punishment.

btw, I think it's also underestimating kids to think that punishment is the answer. They are social creatures, so using positive and negative reinforcement to shape their behavior, imo, undermines that innate sociality.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68* 
You'll probably scoff at that but again ...

You know, I found it fascinating that while trying to convince me not to approach my toddler with preconceived notions about what she is capable of, you approached me with your own preconceived notions. I really found your posting most rude and condescending.

I do personally feel that this deep held belief that toddlers can not practice impulse control ever is wrong. I think it is underestimating my child to think she can only do what I say because she thinks she is part of me and cannot contradict. She *can* understand reason to some extent, and she's been able to from a very young age. She can understand - that hurts mommy, that gives mommy boo boo, don't do that. And she doesn't do it because she does care, not because she thinks I am controlling her. She is a caring person - when her brother cries, she goes up to him and asks "what's wrong brother? do you want milk? do you want a toy?" She gets cause and effect. She understands that the stove is hot - she doesn't touch - not because I told her not to and she thinks I control her - she doesn't touch because she knows she will get a boo boo. So no, if the scientific evidence (not proof - there is never proof of anything in science) is to the contrary, then I would say it has not yet adequately found a way to describe my children.

Deva33mommy - I think positive and negative reinforcement might not be the "answer", but I do think reinforcement is a healthy part of human life. As a social scientist myself, I have seen that there is a tendency to want to throw out previous science for whatever is new. But generally, I believe we get closer to the truth when we take what's useful from the past and add to it new discovery.

If I cry, I get picked up - cause and effect - they learn it from day 1.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

yeah, I maybe shouldn't have said "positive and negative reinforcement." I was talking primarily about *imposed* consequences/rewards, where the main objective is to change a persons behavior. Those consequences tend to teach kids to act in certain ways for self centered reasons. (ie, I won't hit the dog because I don't want a time out, vs. I won't hit the dog because she doesn't like to be hit. I'll pet her gently instead.)
THAT undermines a child's sociality. The naturally occuring consequences seem to do the opposite.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

And don't you think the smile on mommy's face when I pet the dog nicely is a natural consequence too? Or the frown on mommy's face when I hit the dog? Or sometimes even the raised voice? We are humans and sometimes I feel like there is a push to be more than human with our kids. Maybe that's just me - but social interactions at any age are full of "'mI pleased with you" or "I'm not pleased with you." And it is good to try to maximize pleasant situations. YWIM?


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

I am following this thread with great interest.

This particular thing struck a nerve though:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
Maybe that's just me - but social interactions at any age are full of "'mI pleased with you" or "I'm not pleased with you." And it is good to try to maximize pleasant situations. YWIM?

Yes, we live among other people. Yes, social interactions are a part of life. However, as parents, I believe we have to be very careful with "I am pleased/I am not pleased with you". We are one of the most powerfull influences on our children lives, hence we have more responsibility than the "real world"

OK, what I am trying to say is - I know grown people that live for and by this very motto "Is she (he, they, etc.,) PLEASED with me?". I would go as far as to say - they don't seem to have/know/undersdand the concept of SELF-WORTH, but only regard themselves as being worth as much as OTHERS think they are worth. This one particular person seems to be stuck at trying to maximize pleasant situation by trying to constantly please everybody.

So, yes, I believe that we sometimes have to step back and allow our kids to experience this world (not hurt themselves, I am not talking extreme situations) aside from our own emotions.

As I said, it just struck a nerve







Back to your scheduled discussion.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
And don't you think the smile on mommy's face when I pet the dog nicely is a natural consequence too? Or the frown on mommy's face when I hit the dog? Or sometimes even the raised voice? We are humans and sometimes I feel like there is a push to be more than human with our kids. Maybe that's just me - but social interactions at any age are full of "'mI pleased with you" or "I'm not pleased with you." And it is good to try to maximize pleasant situations. YWIM?

I agree. And that's why I said that the NATURALLY occuring consequences seem to be beneficial to a child's sociality, and help them learn even more about socially acceptable behavior.

I am very honest with ds. That means that if something he does bothers me, I tell him (in a gentle way, of course. and we try to find an agreeable solution). If he does something that affects someone, I tell him. I'm honest with him about HOW his actions affect others, and about how I feel about certain things.

(and oh yeah, I agree with the pp that I wouldn't actually SAY to ds "I'm pleased with you for doing x." But I think he can definitely sense when I am pleased or not. kwim?)

eta- reading back, I see where it could be confusing. I said that "naturally occuring consequences do the opposite" and I was referring to them doing the opposite of imposed consequences, which I was saying undermine sociality. So kinda what I was trying to say was that imposed consequences=undermining sociality, natural consequences=beneficial to sociality.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I'm sorry you found my post rude and condescending. It honestly was not meant that way at all. I confess my writing style can be abrupt sometimes - it's hard for me to be concise and I struggle with not going on too long - but it is hard to convey tone in words so I hope you'll accept this apology as an indicator that no such intentions were in my mind when I wrote.

You asked some very valid questions about GD and I attempted to answer them. I did not use my own "preconceived notions" because those were as some of yours were before I did the research and reading. What I'm telling you is what dozens and dozens of child development experts have written and published and told me. If you want to brush it aside because you think it is somehow demeaning to your child, that is your choice - as we say in LLL "take what works for you and leave the rest". But, and I say this lightly, you accuse me of condescension yet your stance could certainly be described as stubborn.







You haven't read the literature yet you seem convinved that based on your observations of your one toddler you can dismiss 30 years of research by people who devote their whole lives to studying childhood development because maybe you just aren't comfortable with the paradigm shift (for example)?

Nobody said that toddlers cannot practice impulse control - merely that this skill is immature and not fully developed at this age. Certainly all creatures, even a newborn baby, come programmed with a self-preservation instinct but this should not be confused with impulse control. Even a newborn will withdraw from pain stimuli, even a sea slug can be conditioned to produce certain responses (or not produce certain responses) by the appropriate use of rewards and punishments; these responses have nothing to do with impulse control.

Your child may have a more higher developed sense of impulse control than others his/her age, but by assuming she does and then drawing the next logical conclusion, which is that she simply refuses to comply in certain situations and therefore needs you to do "something" about this, you move away from a GD perspective and towards behaviouralism and mainstream parenting tools of coercion, power struggles, and rewards/punishments.

Ultimately it is your choice as to which approach to take. You asked about GD, and I tried to answer in an informative way. It is about reframing what you see, which completely changes the "logical response". With the way you are viewing things (and no judgements here about who is right or wrong) you will naturally be led to behaviouralist and controlling techniques. GD techniques are the logical response to a different view of the picture.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68* 
You haven't read the literature yet you seem convinved that based on your observations of your one toddler you can dismiss 30 years of research by people who devote their whole lives to studying childhood development because maybe you just aren't comfortable with the paradigm shift (for example)?.

This is the preconceived notion I am referring to - you assume that I know nothing of this subject. That I've read nothing. But that is not true. I've had quite a bit of exposure to this method - both by reading and by experience, and some things continue to bother me. Primarily I don't see the concrete applications. I never see the jump from redirection to problem solving. I don't see how it works out in real life. We are ready for that jump - and don't really care to continue a debate over whether my child is ready for that jump or not, let's just assume she is gifted in this area and move on to my question - how do you make the jump?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68* 
Nobody said that toddlers cannot practice impulse control - merely that this skill is immature and not fully developed at this age.

Pardon me, that was the impression I was getting, and call me stubborn, but I just wasn't buying the "no impulse control whatsoever".

So back to my question, assuming I'm ready to solve a problem with my dd - assuming I've decided she developmentally ready to handle a problem I want to solve with her - what does that interaction look like. I agree - coercion and punishment come along because of lack of problem sovling skills or many times just plain impatience or laziness.

Part of the problem I'm having here is I really don't have any good examples. I just don't have many "problems" with dd! Actually the more I think about it, the sillier it seems that I've even started this discussion!!







There are 3 triggers to "bad" behavior with dd - tiredness (got that under control), not being heard (we communicate very well), and boredom - that's the problem 99% of the time. Goes back to that self discipline thing and getting my act together.









PS I agree about the "people pleasing" what I was trying to get to is "pleasant" - life is nice when people are pleasant. I hope my children will be pleasant people.

Got to go - great grandma has dd today and I have lot's of work to do!!!


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
I never see the jump from redirection to problem solving. I don't see how it works out in real life. We are ready for that jump - and don't really care to continue a debate over whether my child is ready for that jump or not, let's just assume she is gifted in this area and move on to my question - how do you make the jump?

For us, it's a gradual thing. Sometimes, the problem solving is in the form of my asking ds "what could we do instead?" and sort of helping suggest alternatives. So, if he's making too much noise banging on something, I might ask him what he could bang on that wouldn't make so much noise. And we talk about it. I might tell him to bang on different surfaces to figure out which make noise, and which don't.
Sometimes I'll tell him "that's not working for me. Let's find something that makes both of us happy." At 2.5, he's not really a big part of the solution finding, but he plays a small part.
For us, that's what the "jump" looks like.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Hey, everyone and no one in particular







Any personally directed comments would best be taken to PM for requests for clarification or to work things out off the boards.

The MDC User Agreement asks that we:

Quote:

Do not post to a thread to take direct issue with a member. If you feel a member has posted or behaved inappropriately in a discussion, communicate directly with the member, moderator or administrator privately and refrain from potentially defaming discussion in a thread.
Just trying to keep things friendly









Thanks!


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
For us, that's what the "jump" looks like.

Thanks so much! That makes alot of sense to me - neat


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2bluefish* 
So back to my question, assuming I'm ready to solve a problem with my dd - assuming I've decided she developmentally ready to handle a problem I want to solve with her - what does that interaction look like.


Just jumping in here to say that it looks like you really already know how to do this. If you only have three major issues with her, you're solving problems all the time. She is constantly learning from your redirection, or you two are compromising on probably dozens of small issues every day, either by you deciding you don't care is she plays with XYZ, or by her deciding to be redirected and play with something else.

So, I'd say you're already there. I like the washcloths and silks in a wipe box idea, I think I'm going to do that myself. Sometimes things come up where you need a little work-around, which is much easier than a power struggle. And as far as the wheat goes, isn't one indicator of wheat intolerance a craving for products with wheat? A craving is very hard to resist, I'd just lock up the wheat or get rid of it.

I really like Piglet68's analogy of driving a car. When I have something like your wipe issue going on with my kids, I say to them, "I can see you're not ready to have these drum sticks. It is too hard to play with them and not hit your sister. I know you'll be able to soon, but I'm going to put them away to help you resist." Just saying this helps me feel like it's not me vs. them. I hope it helps them feel like that too.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

For problem solving I started when DD was around 3.

Example: it's time to leave the playground and DD is running away from me when I say it's time to go. I'm carrying her (very heavy) baby brother so I can't just pick her up, and the car is too far away to leave one and return for the other. how can I get her to come with me without a power struggle?

Me: "DD, we have a problem. I need for us to go now because Grandpa is coming over and we need to get home before he gets there. You seem to be having a hard time leaving. What can we do to make it easier?"

We took turns making suggestions, which I have the right to veto. One of her suggestions was:

DD: "Can you sing me a song while we walk to the car?"

That worked fine for me. So I did, and she happily followed along.

This doesn't work all the time, but I try to do it as often as I can. If it's not a situation we can realistically do this for, I use redirection/distraction techniques. The idea is that, as the child matures, the former tactic will increase as the latter decreases.

For an excellent read about what such problem solving looks like see "How to Talk So Kids Will Listen..." by Faber and Mazlish. Basically you can make a list of suggestions, write them down if need be, go over them and choose one that is acceptable to both of you (again you get to veto if it's "over the top"). The idea is that when a child is involved in the solution they will comply with little fuss. It also teaches great conflict resolution skills.

HTH!


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

OT Sorry, Piglet, is that _you_? (suseyblue here). My gosh, have you been here all along & I've just been hanging out in the wrong forums? (There were a couple years when Karaboo & I kept missing each other







, I suppose it's possible!) Missed you!


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68* 
Me: "DD, we have a problem. I need for us to go now because Grandpa is coming over and we need to get home before he gets there. You seem to be having a hard time leaving. What can we do to make it easier?"

This is my next project- work on my phrasing. I love the way you phrased that! I think I need to read up on NVC.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail* 
OT Sorry, Piglet, is that _you_? (suseyblue here). My gosh, have you been here all along & I've just been hanging out in the wrong forums? (There were a couple years when Karaboo & I kept missing each other







, I suppose it's possible!) Missed you!

LOL. Yep! Mostly I just hang out on my local tribe forum but like to venture out once in a while. Nice to see you!!


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:

"DD, we have a problem. I need for us to go now because Grandpa is coming over and we need to get home before he gets there. You seem to be having a hard time leaving. What can we do to make it easier?"

Quote:

This is my next project- work on my phrasing. I love the way you phrased that! I think I need to read up on NVC.
I typically make every attempt to utilize this type of phrasing as much as possible, but I wanted to share what my four yr. old said the last time I asked him: What can I do to help make it easier for you to leave? He said: "Let me stay."


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

Quote:

dd (2.5 years) is intolerant of wheat - she is always sneaking in the pantry and finding things that have wheat in them to feed herself - the result is not good - loose stools and diaper rash

OK - so GD not punishment, I need to remove all wheat foods to higher shelves (but she has recently started climbing) - put a lock on the pantry door? - but this doesn't really teach her anything...

I insist a hundred times a day that she get out of the pantry (or let go of the cat, or leave the diaper wipes alone...). How do I *teach* her to stop - without getting into behavior modification that that Alfie guy is so against?


I didn't read the entire post..it seemed to go all around, but I did want to touch on the point of the gluten-free diet. When my dd1 was 3.5 we put her on a gluten free/ caesin free diet for behavioral issues. At that time, we suspected autism, and had read about gfcf diet as a treatment. Furthermore, dd1 showed signs of being sensitive to gluten and caesin in that she acted addicted to foods with those ingredients. Anyway, when she was 3.5 we tried her on the gfcf diet, and it helped a lot with her behavior, potty issues, language, and furthermore she stopped gaining weight so rapidly. When we first made the change to gfcf, I did put a lock on a refrigerator and put all our foods which couldn't have up high. I also cleared out 1 cabinet (which was down low) and put special gfcf foods in that cabinet for her. DD knew that she could have anything in that cabinet, and those were HER foods (no one else ate them really). During the transition to being gfcf, we let dd have lots of treat and junk foods (mostly potato or corn chips and french fries LOL). So, we would say things like "sorry, dd1...those crackers have gluten in them, but you can have these corn ships instead." She was happy with that, and I always made sure to have alternative foods that SHE really liked around. We have phased that out now, and don't keep chips around as a matter or course (we do have them sometimes), but it helped a lot with the transition. I also made a point of making (still do this) substitute foods for her (so she has her own cake, I bring to parties, her own cookies at storytime snack, etc.etc). She is only one in the family who is gfcf..the rest of us eat as we always did..but I always try to modify or make similar food for her (so if we are having pasta, she gets her pasta).

Anyway, dd1 just turned 5, and she has free access to the refrigerator and all the cabinets in the house. She KNOWS which food she can and can't have, and never tries to "sneak" anything. If she wanted to, she definitely could. She is a lot older than your dd is, but eventually that point is reached.

So, that was long..but my point is the four main things which helped with our transition to being gfcf are
1) giving her a cabinet just for HER, she had free access too, with food she likes
2) making sure to have food she REALLY likes around, so she can eat that, and will be happy with x food instead of focusing on y which she can't have.
3) see what food she is "sneaking" and try to food an acceptable alternative. For example, if she is sneaking crackers, are there gluten-free alternatives she likes. If not, is there another "snacky" think like popcorn she can have instead, and give her access to that.
4) making sure she knows what foods she can and can't have by looking at the box. For the most part, my dd can recognize acceptable foods (recognizes the brand, or package...and the general "types" of food she can have. For example, she knows she can't have most crackers, but can have most chips. She knows that pizza isn't acceptable but chicken is. Obviousely she needs help..since there are lots of "hidden ingredients" and she can't read labels yey...but for the most part she is good about knowing what she can and can't have before we tell her. I realize my daughter is older, but even a 2.5 year can recognize boxes and learn things like grapes are always okay.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

hi amelia from yer fellow Oct/04 mama!!


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

Cool - dd was Oct 04 too; I wasn't around MDC at the time! If I am pregnant, which more and more I'm thinking I am, then my due date will be on dd's birthday - too wild!


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Love this thread...so informative and great ideas for problem solving rather than getting into a power struggle. I must say, I stray with my ds (4yo) when I'm exhausted (sleep deprived because of 10mo babe who loves to nurse all night). I try to remind myself that I'm human and I talk with ds about why I got upset and remind him that it isn't his fault but my exhaustion that's the issue.

I wanted to just add that some of the behaviors that we find so annoying and distasteful in our young children are really so important for them in terms of healthy emotional/psychological development. For example, children under the age of 4 or 5 are very self-focused...they don't really empathize because they are the center of the universe from their perspective. It's such a normal part of development and if we try to push them through it too quickly, I think we run the risk of them reworking this stage later on when it becomes more narcissistic and inappropriate...and problematic for them socially.

When they test the boundaries with us, I think they are sometimes of course testing limits and seeing if we really meant what we said. Other times, I think they are desperately trying to control their environments and as they get older (3ish), I think they realize how little control they really have and start to exhert it where ever they can. I believe this is why some children get into struggles with food and the potty because these are the two areas of their lives where they really *do* have control. So I figure give them control whenever you safely can so that they don't feel like they have to fight for it so much. I guess this is another way of saying, pick your battles.

To the OP, I think the fact that your dd was so compliant at 2 and is now pushing against you a bit is a good thing. Of course, it becomes much harder to parent but it really is a healthy stage of development. Now that my ds is in preschool, I can really see the benefit of those changes he went through as he's able to assert himself and take care of himself much better socially.

Sorry to ramble....


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## ameliabedelia (Sep 24, 2002)

Quote:

hi amelia from yer fellow Oct/04 mama!!


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