# raising UNoppressed children



## turnipmama (Oct 29, 2006)

I am trying to raise my children oppression free! Anyone else here interested in doing this? What does it mean for you?

For me it means letting my child develop her own sense of self and learning not to be bound by societal standards. This does NOT mean no limits or anything but I don't want them to be trapped by what other people think she should do.

For example...I was always told as a child I didn't want to be a geologist or something because I would never find a job or make any money...thus it wasn't worthwhile. I was always told that I didn't want a pink house because it was ugly and would make my neighbor's think I'm wierd....ect. ect....I want my DD to find her OWN sense of self regardless of what other's think and I want to create a safe and nurturing environment for her to do that.
I love my in-laws but most of them won't even discuss certain things (like BFing or sex) because its "dirty" and not "proper". I don't want my DD feeling so trapped like that....

So what does unoppressed mean for you? What are your strategies? How doe you balance this with setting safe limits for their well-being?


----------



## MelKnee (Dec 5, 2001)

I think much the same as you.

I see no reason to put limits on future occupations simply because they won't earn any money. I want my kids to be happy and content in what they do no matter the monetary compensation. If they want to play guitar on the street corner for change or be investment bankers, that's fine with me.

As for social constructs, I find most of them silly. My dh is in many ways stereotypically a woman and I, a man.
Our ds's favorite color is pink and most of his clothes are pink. He has just discovered that it is the "girl" clothes that come in pink and with sparkles. He thinks that's not fair, but it isn't going to stop him from wearing them.

No topics are off limits for discussion. I figure, if they are old enough to ask a question, they are old enough to get an answer.

I also respect him by showing interest in the things he is excited about even if I think it is dull as dirt. He is important to me, so his interests are, too. I want him to like what he wants, not what he thinks I want him to like.

I try to restrict the limits I place on him to respecting other people and their property. I try to teach him, he can't hurt someone (including feelings and ears) nor destroy something they own without consequences. His own property, he can do what he wants with it, but we/he may not have the money to replace it and then he has to go without. In regards to his phyical safety, he has been remarkabley adept at pushing his limits without getting seriously hurt.

I am definitely trying to raise unopressed children. I want them to find their true selves. One of the main reasons I had kids was becasue I wanted to find out who they were/are.


----------



## marybethorama (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *turnipmama* 
For example...I was always told as a child I didn't want to be a geologist or something because I would never find a job or make any money...thus it wasn't worthwhile. I was always told that I didn't want a pink house because it was ugly and would make my neighbor's think I'm wierd....ect. ect....

OMG that's awful.

This is coming from an art historian with no job at the moment who is also the former owner of the house known as "The Pink House". It actually wasn't all pink, it was white with pink trim but it was still pretty pink


----------



## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

:


----------



## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

:

Subscribing.

This is so important to me. I want my children to be their own people. I don't care if they are wealthy, or prestigious, or if they follow in my footsteps, or what others think of them. I just want them to think for themselves and be true to their values.

We talk about everything. I answer questions. I try to give reasons besides "because I said so." Sometimes I fail.

I most definitely need to learn to be better at this.


----------



## Imogen (Jul 25, 2006)

:

This is really important to me too. The difficulty that I have found so far is ridding myself of my own 'conditioning' from my childhood that would completely enable me to provide the support that is needed for my son to live a completely unoppressed life.

Mostly this revolves around financial stability.

Peace


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MelKnee* 
I also respect him by showing interest in the things he is excited about even if I think it is dull as dirt. He is important to me, so his interests are, too. I want him to like what he wants, not what he thinks I want him to like.

YES! As an example, I'm learning to gain an appreciation for computer games and cartoons. There's nothing more disrespectful (or oppressive) than labeling our children's toys and chosen pasttimes as "junk."

I actually find I'm learning a lot of new things by trying to see things through my children's eyes.


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Have you heard of *The Unprocessed Child: Living Without School* by Valerie Fitzenreiter?

Here is an article by her: http://www.unschooling.info/articles/article9.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=_Ec...with-thumbnail

Pat


----------



## pia (Jul 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
Have you heard of *The Unprocessed Child: Living Without School* by Valerie Fitzenreiter?

Here is an article by her: http://www.unschooling.info/articles/article9.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=_Ec...with-thumbnail

Pat

Thanks Pat!







I´ve just bookmarked both links - look forward to reading!


----------



## lilsparrow (Apr 19, 2006)

Raising unoppressed children is a major parenting goal of mine. I feel there is no other way for them to reach their fullest developmental potential.







:

Awesome link, Pat. I've bookmarked it too.


----------



## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

This is extremely important to me, too. And very, very hard to do, since my son goes to school.

I have a very sensitive child. He just really, really hates the fact that others might laugh at him, or think hat he does is stupid etc.







He is at the same time a kid that IS unique. He loves to have long hair, he loooved the colour pink for the longest time, he has pretty "geeky" interests etc. So, how do I help him be who he is?

How to help a child that by nature seems to be very afraid of failing, of being different..


----------



## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MelKnee* 
He has just discovered that it is the "girl" clothes that come in pink and with sparkles. He thinks that's not fair, but it isn't going to stop him from wearing them.

.

I am completley on board with unopression, but I am wondering how you will teach your children to handle the social issues that come with a man wearing sparkly pink clothes. kwim?

(My 4 yr old ds is the same though, and I dont have aproblem with it. My dh is worried about him getting made fun of though.)

You cant raise unopressed and oblivious kids, right? That cant be good-that they would be unprepared for the social more's of our society.

Not that that means they should conform either.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MelKnee* 
If they want to play guitar on the street corner for change or be investment bankers, that's fine with me.

I basically agree with everything you said, but I just wanted to say that line made me laugh out loud, which I don't do much right now.

My first FIL is a street busker, who plays guitar on the street corner for change.
My current FIL is...well, basically, he's an investment banker - maybe not exactly that, but so close as to be the same thing.

Interesting examples, from my perspective!


----------



## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

One of my goals is to raise kids who can think outside of the box, but not get locked out of it either.

This means to me a mix of pragmatic and idealistic dreams.

I would never tell my kids "you don't want to be X, because you won't make any money."

I WILL tell my kids "X is a noble profession. However, you need to recognize that the profession doesn't earn a lot of money, and that will require some sacrifices on your part - you won't be able to live at an upper middle class lifestyle AND be an X - since inheriting a fortune isn't an option ; )". And i would help my kids think through what they would have to do in order to succeed.

My SIL was told that she "could be anything she wanted to be". But then she decided she wanted to be an RAF pilot, despite the fact she has very poor eyesight and (certainly at the time, and probably still) all air force pilots were required to have 20/20 to even apply. But she wouldn't listen. She kept telling her parents that they were trying to "oppress" her when they said she might want to rethink her plans. It wasn't until AFTER she was rejected that she actually realized that no, in fact, she couldn't actually be ANYTHING she wanted to be.

I am all for giving kids the ability to think blue sky thoughts, but a healthy dose of pragmatism can also keep everyone sane. Hell, being pragmatic is how a close friend of mine flourished in his acting career. He went to school for financial management - he realized that if he got a job where he managed a theater, he had a better chance of getting introduced to directors and producers - and they were more likely to hire an actor who could both act AND balance their books. So far, he has never had to work as a waiter... which is saying something for an actor!

Siobhan


----------



## MelKnee (Dec 5, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
I am completley on board with unopression, but I am wondering how you will teach your children to handle the social issues that come with a man wearing sparkly pink clothes. kwim?

He already deals with it some. Kids at the playground have told him "those are girl clothes". He just shrugs it off and keeps playing or finds someone nice to play with. He has plenty of friends who accept him for who he is. Friends who understand that boys can like pink and sparkles. If he grows up to be a man who likes pink and sparkles, I'm sure he will continue to find people who are accepting.


----------



## JSerene (Nov 4, 2004)

I struggle with this on one issue with my dd & dh. Dd is 2 1/2 yrs old and loves to play mommy. She pretends she's pregnant, says there's a baby in her uterus, pushes her baby out and nurses her. She loves talking about being a mommy when she's older. I think this is great. Of course, she's been influenced by me: I love to talk with my friends and sisters about pregnancy, babies and children and she's heard all this talk. My dh doesn't think this is so great. He feels that she should get more out of life than being a mother. Yeah, that makes him sound like a jerk. He doesn't mean to offend, he just hasn't found his place in this life and wants a lot for her. He wants her to have more options than motherhood.

So, which one of us is oppressing her? Me, for teaching her about being pregnant and enjoying the mommy game, or him for saying she should do more?


----------



## woobysma (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
One of my goals is to raise kids who can think outside of the box, but not get locked out of it either.


I love this.


----------



## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Editted to remove link to a site. It seems super commercial to me now. I did not remember it being like that.


----------



## Critty (Nov 10, 2007)

I think it is important to validate children's wishes and dreams. My sister wanted to be a dog with a mustache when she grew up and no one told her she couldn't be that. She just figured it out on her own ... although before a lip wax I do mention she has achieved her goal - lol.

My cousin wanted to marry her dad, and the rest of us thought about it and decided this was not a viable option for her, he was simply too tall.

Kids ideas will change and grow and as long as the parents respect their feelings and encourage them to grow, they'll continue to dream big. Without big dreamers, our world would be a pretty sad place.


----------



## Maela (Apr 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngelBee* 
http://www.unhinderedliving.com/

Like this site









I like this site too. I don't agree with all of it, but it's great for getting one to start thinking out side of the box.

I'm going to try raising my children unoppressed also. Dh and I were telling my ILs about the savings account that we started for dd to use for college. My MIL jokingly said, "What if she doesn't want to go to college?" I think I surprised her when I said, "That's fine; she can use it for something else, like a car or starting a business..."

I really don't care what my children end up doing, as long as they're happy and kind people, I'll be very happy.









My mom still tells my 14yo brother to go change his clothes if she feels they don't match. It bothers me so much! I have to admit that I'm kind of excited to see the look on her face when Dd is old enough to pick out her own outfits because I'm sure she won't approve.


----------



## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

a question: What happens when your dp doesnt agree with your decision to "not care what they do as long as they are happy."

My dh doesnt realize it, even though I have pointed it out, but he totally thinks the way to happyness is partially through money, and his parents raised him in rich neighborhoods just to set that idea in stone. His whole family belives this way.

So will my kids be confused by the conflict in opinion?


----------



## turnipmama (Oct 29, 2006)

I am not so sure if they would be confused...maybe? But they are also exposed to other points of view as well? I would just encourage them to make their own opinion. You could say things like "Yes there are some that do feel that way but their are many examples of people being perfectly happy with little money...." would that work?


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
a question: What happens when your dp doesnt agree with your decision to "not care what they do as long as they are happy."

I think it's easier if the dp's okay with YOU being yourself and expressing your view of things (and just supplements that by sharing his own views with them) -- but harder if he feels it's your duty to promote HIS point of view because you're the one at home full-time.


----------



## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

I don't identify with the term unoppressed, what you describe is what I would call nurturing a child's natural individuality, and being an open and honest parent. I think it's what others have called respecting the child.

I think that children living in America are blessed with immense freedom, and do not experience oppression, as children in less fortunate, less free and less tolerant places do.


----------



## water (May 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Critty* 
I think it is important to validate children's wishes and dreams. My sister wanted to be a dog with a mustache when she grew up and no one told her she couldn't be that. She just figured it out on her own ... although before a lip wax I do mention she has achieved her goal - lol.










: Ok this is the funniest thing I have ever read on here...


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KBecks* 
I think that children living in America are blessed with immense freedom, and do not experience oppression, as children in less fortunate, less free and less tolerant places do.

I realize there are degrees of oppression, and agree that those of us who live in America are extremely fortunate, generally have lots of freedoms, and most of us can find some degree of tolerance for our personal uniquenesses.

But I disagree with your assertion that there's no oppression here. It's true that if I had to choose between martial law and having my mother choose what combinations of clothing I could wear -- I'd go with the latter 'cause clothes are just one avenue of self-expression and I could find other ways to express myself. And eventually move out and choose my own clothes.

Still, to a child with very controlling parents, I'm sure the situation doesn't feel much different from living under an oppressive government.


----------



## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Sure, very controlling parents can be seen as oppressive, but I doubt that many parents try to exert that much control, especially parents here at MDC. Oppressive parenting isn't anywhere near the norm, even by parents that are more controlling.... and I think it's an exaggeration to suggest that the average american child is oppressed by his or her parents or society. I would rather find a positive term to define my parenting style than unoppressive, it doesn't feel like a good fit for me.

That said, I'm interested in the topic. Having been raised by an overprotective mother who made recommendations I didn't like, (don't go to college, get married and be a secretary -- was the biggest offense, although I did go to college), I think I know what not to do.

I plan to listen to my kids wants and encourage them to have their own style and opinions, etc. I will also freely express my opinions and let them know that's how I feel and they can choose different. I agree with someone else who said they would talk through the pros and cons and tradeoffs with different choices.

I do have some basic expectations for my kids, and we'll instill our basic values to be honest, generous, kind, helpful, etc. etc. I think that's part of being a good parent, and I plan to do a lot of leading by example.

I want the kids to have as positive of a childhood experience as possible, and so that's where I'm coming from as my vision / goal. Maybe that's why I reacted to unoppressive -- it's such a negative term.


----------



## hippymomma69 (Feb 28, 2007)

Well I'm still constantly learning about the depths of my own "oppression" - reading the works of Alice ******, Derrick Jensen, and so on and learning more about "anarchist" thought has given me tools to constantly see the way in which society (and capitalism) has "colonized" my thoughts...it's really the work of a lifetime, I think.

That said, I think the most important tool we can give our kids to resist oppression is to teach them critical thinking. They need to see and understand the box before they can think outside it...which, to me, means teaching them what the social norms are and how to follow them before they flout them. Then teaching them what the "box" is and to see it's outlines clearly. And maybe think about how you could change the shape of the box. It's like any creative endeavor - if you can learn the 'discipline' and master it, then you can bend the rules and change them with full understanding of what you are doing...

Sorry I'm rambling, but as my son is sitting here banging his train on my computer, do I just let him as part of his "self-expression"? Or do I show him "trains go on the floor" and therefore "oppress" him? (I'm just thinking about the boots at the funeral example that was in the article Pat posted...) My instinct is to teach him that trains go on the floor (or boots are for rainy days) but once I'm sure he understands the rule, then view "breaking" of it as being self-expression....in fact I've done this with my DD quite often with the whole boots thing....at first I stressed "boots are for rainy days". But now that she is older (4) I will remind her "boots are for rainy days - are you sure you want to wear that today?" and if she says yes, well then she gets to wear them.

Anyway, this is all very interesting to think about...here's another question. Is it oppression if they *like* doing it? (I'm thinking about traditional schooling but it could apply to anything I suppose).

peace,
robyn


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

If my child were banging her train on my computer (and indeed I do see more of these types of behaviors when I'm online or on the phone) -- I think I'd ask myself what it is that she wants.

Of course, when these things happen I DO explain that banging on the computer can damage it (just as climbing on the computer-table is not a terrific idea for the same reason). But chances are, it's totally possible to satisfy my child's wants without letting the computer get damaged.

In my own case (I can't answer for everyone else) the computer-banging stuff is often just an attempt to get me to get off of it, and get me to spend some time with my child. If she's wanting to climb something and jump off of it, there are plenty of ways to satisfy that need without it having to be the computer table. She's on the computer table to get me to focus on her and spend time with her.

Once I get off the computer, she's perfectly happy to go with me and do her climbing and jumping elsewhere.

So ... while I don't see it as oppressive to redirect my child's banging/climbing explorations AWAY from expensive merchandise, I do see it as oppressive if what she's really seeking is my attention, and I'm not giving her that, and I'm also denying her every avenue she can think of to express that desire and try to get my attention.


----------



## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

subbing, this is something i want to learn as well too.


----------



## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KBecks* 
Oppressive parenting isn't anywhere near the norm, even by parents that are more controlling.... and I think it's an exaggeration to suggest that the average american child is oppressed by his or her parents or society. .

I feel like most parents are oppressive. Everyone I know advocates spanking and all forms of corporal punishment. (Except one







: )

Also, in regards to your wanting a different term for "unopressive" Would it possibly be consensual?


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KBecks* 
I would rather find a positive term to define my parenting style than unoppressive, it doesn't feel like a good fit for me.


We live consensually.

_Consensual living is a process, a philosophy, a mindset by which we seek to live in harmony with our families and community. It involves finding mutually agreed upon solutions, where the needs of both parties are not only considered but addressed. Everyone's wants and needs are equally valid, regardless of age. Conflicting wants or needs are discussed and mutually agreeable solutions are created or negotiated which meet the underlying needs of all parties. Beginners to this concept are welcome to join this list, living consensually is an ongoing process of discovery. We ask that you be open to or on the path toward living consensually. We hope to explore the issues by asking questions, and sharing our experiences. Parenting is a sensitive issue for many people but we are all here to practice this process, and can do so if the environment remains one of respect, compassion, exploration and understanding. If you would like more information about Consensual Living or would like to sign up for the Consensual Living Newsletter, please visit our web site: http://www.consensual-living.com Consensual Living Website_

Anyone interested in exploring Consensual Living is welcome to post individual inquiry or issues at the CL tribe or yahoogroup. We have almost 600 families who could help share btdt stories and brainstorming for situations.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=493985
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...guid=140240070

Pat


----------



## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

:

Whatever Pat says.














:


----------



## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Imogen* 







:

This is really important to me too. The difficulty that I have found so far is ridding myself of my own 'conditioning' from my childhood that would completely enable me to provide the support that is needed for my son to live a completely unoppressed life.

Mostly this revolves around financial stability.

Peace

This is where I am too. I believe in unoppression. I really, really do. But it is so hard to look at your child and recognize in her that she is a social misfit, and to know, from personal experience, the hardship that entails--the social crap is nonsense; that doesn't matter, but the financial instability and hardship that comes from nonconformity... I want to change it. I don't want to change _her_. I want to change _the world_. But I can't. So I am frustrated.

I got lucky. I found an awesome husband who accepts me for who I am and supports me, financially and otherwise, in all my nonconformist glory. So my unemployability is not an immediate problem. What if she is not so lucky? This is what worries me.

I wish we had an enormous trust fund we could leave them, so I wouldn't feel so conflicted and guilty about unoppressive parenting.


----------



## Imogen (Jul 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna* 
This is where I am too. I believe in unoppression. I really, really do. But it is so hard to look at your child and recognize in her that she is a social misfit, and to know, from personal experience, the hardship that entails--the social crap is nonsense; that doesn't matter, but the financial instability and hardship that comes from nonconformity... I want to change it. I don't want to change _her_. I want to change _the world_. But I can't. So I am frustrated.

I got lucky. I found an awesome husband who accepts me for who I am and supports me, financially and otherwise, in all my nonconformist glory. So my unemployability is not an immediate problem. What if she is not so lucky? This is what worries me.

I wish we had an enormous trust fund we could leave them, so I wouldn't feel so conflicted and guilty about unoppressive parenting.


Absolutely!! I would like to think that I will encourage my son to follow any path he desires, even if that means not having a huge income.. so long as he was happy and living true to himself. But the poverty I experienced in childhood and my battle to become financially secure cause me to wonder and worry that I will undermine his own desires in life for the sake of this so called financial security







:

But then, is this just my parenting instinct kicking in? The desire for my son to be 'safe'







:

Peace


----------



## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Imogen* 
Absolutely!! I would like to think that I will encourage my son to follow any path he desires, even if that means not having a huge income.. so long as he was happy and living true to himself. But the poverty I experienced in childhood and my battle to become financially secure cause me to wonder and worry that I will undermine his own desires in life for the sake of this so called financial security







:

Well, there is defining success based on income and then there is poverty.

Poverty can be so destructive and limiting to an individual, it is definitely something to be avoided, period.

Oh, and "voluntary" poverty - i.e. starving artist but could get a day job if required - isn't poverty, IMHO - poverty involves a definitive lack of choice about it.

Oh and I LOVE what hippymamma69 said

Quote:

That said, I think the most important tool we can give our kids to resist oppression is to teach them critical thinking. They need to see and understand the box before they can think outside it...which, to me, means teaching them what the social norms are and how to follow them before they flout them. Then teaching them what the "box" is and to see it's outlines clearly. And maybe think about how you could change the shape of the box. It's like any creative endeavor - if you can learn the 'discipline' and master it, then you can bend the rules and change them with full understanding of what you are doing...
exactly!!!!
I'd use this as my sig, but it is too long.







:


----------



## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hippymomma69* 
That said, I think the most important tool we can give our kids to resist oppression is to teach them critical thinking. They need to see and understand the box before they can think outside it...which, to me, means teaching them what the social norms are and how to follow them before they flout them. Then teaching them what the "box" is and to see it's outlines clearly. And maybe think about how you could change the shape of the box. It's like any creative endeavor - if you can learn the 'discipline' and master it, then you can bend the rules and change them with full understanding of what you are doing...

Exactly. Its important to start with a solid foundation. It is something to fall back on in times of need, or for safety, or as a jumping board to get out of the box. I am an artist, and I sometimes pull the "flaky artist card" on purpose, because I can get away with it, even if I know better. That's because I know where the box is, I have just chosen to flirt the edges or jump outside it. Not knowing where the foundation is, or seeing it as constantly moving (as opposed to slowly, subtly moving), I think is very scary for a child. It's maybe the opposite extreme of oppression, but not necessarily better.

In the above posts, you could determine that the child wants attention, and then give them immediate attention, or after you finished your email. Or it could be the child wants to hear the sound of a train on a keyboard, as opposed to on a floor matt, or that the keyboard is the imaginary train tracks, in which case explaining that it might get broken and instead giving the child an old, unused keyboard (or some other object) would be just as good as train tracks.... I don't think that's oppression. It's basic common sense.

Oppression is a parent saying "This is a democracy, but I have 51% of the vote." I heard this a lot when younger, along with the "when I say jump, you say how high" kind of speaches.

There is a difference between oppression and rules, and a lot of grey area in between.


----------



## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllisonR* 

Oppression is a parent saying "This is a democracy, but I have 51% of the vote." I heard this a lot when younger, along with the "when I say jump, you say how high" kind of speaches.

There is a difference between oppression and rules, and a lot of grey area in between.

There is alot of social pressure to "keep your kids under control" and/or "Have good kids" (which means kids who jump when you say jump)

Even though I do not belive in treating them that way at all...I still do it-probably at least once a day in some way or form.

At some point I think "I am the parent and I get to say! And you have to do what I say!" (LOL)

I am not sure where these social pressures come from. TV? Parents? Husband? Other people with kids? School?

Do you guys know what I am talking about?


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Regarding the idea that Consensual Living (or UNoppressive, or non-coercive, or whatever-you-want-to-call-it, parenting), results in children who can't get jobs or find a way to rise above poverty -- that just sounds like another big dose of oppressive fear-mongering to me.

I personally think it would have the opposite effect. Of course, I can't provide proof, because neither I nor anyone I know has been raised without heavy doses of parental oppression in the form of coercion, pressure, and punishments. I can't even claim that my own children are growing up totally free from all that. I keep digging deeper, and finding layers of unsuspected oppressiveness, within my own parenting.

So ... about the only case I can make is that parental oppression sure hasn't made me rich. Every time you interfere with children's and young people's explorations, and keep directing them to the pursuits YOU feel are more useful, there's an increasing risk that they're going to end up totally out-of-sync with their own hunches, interests, and passions -- which, according to most entrepreneurs, are what you have to keep believing in to get rich.

To me, the reasoning that "we have to coerce/oppress our kids to prevent them from ending up in oppressive situations due to poverty," is a lot like the mainstream reasoning that parents have to force weaning, separation, and solitary sleeping arrangements so their children will be secure and independent.

Most parents here would agree that the opposite is true: children who are allowed to wean and separate from parents at their own paces, tend to be more secure and independent than those who were pushed.

Of course, how each of us sees this is going to be heavily influenced by our views of human nature. If we see our children as naturally inquisitive and eager to learn, and also eager to gain skills that will help them navigate the world and get the things they want, we're going to be less likely to let fear guide us in our parenting. We're going to apply our energies toward helping our children succeed in getting more and more of the things they want.

On the other hand, if we think the only way children will learn is if we push them, and provide positive reinforcements when they jump through the right hoops, and punishments when they dilly-dally -- then naturally we're going to have lots of fears that Consensual Living (or UN-oppressive parenting) is going to ruin our children's lives.

This weekend we visited my mom, and our 7yo was demonstrating how rapidly she could run on all fours. Mom kept saying, "I don't really see that as an accomplishment for a 7yo; I can think of lots of other things that _would_ be an accomplishment." I jumped in and said *I* thought it was an accomplishment, because dd was going really fast.

Mom's comments (and subtle attempt to re-direct my dd toward pursuits that she -- Grandma -- would be impressed with) remind me of how underhanded oppression can be. It wasn't like my mom was directly saying, "Stop that!" and telling dd she HAD to do XYZ, or else.

She was just using dd's hunger for her attention and approval, to try to get her to jump through some Grandma-approved hoops that I'm sure _she thought_ would really be "for dd's own good" in the long-run.

In a way, the underhanded oppression can sometimes be more powerful than the straightforward kind. When adults use blatant force to get kids to do what they want, at least the kids have no illusion that it was really their (the kids') idea in the first place.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
There is alot of social pressure to "keep your kids under control" and/or "Have good kids" (which means kids who jump when you say jump)...

I am not sure where these social pressures come from. TV? Parents? Husband? Other people with kids? School?

Do you guys know what I am talking about?

I think the social pressures come from fear ... fear that children growing up in freedom won't have any motivation to learn how to get along with others, or to do what it takes to survive in the world.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Oh, and it's certainly not oppressive to give our kids information (in response to their interest) about finances and budgeting, and about how much income different kinds of careers are likely to generate, and about what standards-of-living you can achieve at various income-levels.

I think the best information is gained, though, when kids grow up getting to decide how they want to budget and spend their own money (both their part-time job earnings and their allowances) rather than having their parents stand over them saying, "This much goes to savings, this much to charity," and so on.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with suggesting that a child might like to set aside something for savings or charity or whatever, but when parents take the choice away, it seems dishonest for them to act like this is really _the child's_ money.

Although some children are certainly less money-oriented than others, I've yet to meet a child who has *no* interest in financial matters. My parents thought I had no interest in money, but really I loooved getting to buy candy to share with my friends (and eat myself, of course!







).

Maybe if they'd been more willing to respect my perspective and try to see things through my eyes, I would have been more willing to listen to what I now realize was some very sound advice, that could have saved me lots of financial heartache as an adult.

Since the advice always seemed to come couched in criticism of how I felt and how I wanted to do things -- and since every. single. decision I made counter to their advice was treated by them as an absolute tragedy (whether it involved one dollar or several thousands), their advice always felt just too constricting to even consider.

So, in a way, I think my parents' attempt to control my financial decisions has primarily _worked against_ their desire to help me become a financially-secure person. Gentle, child-respectful guidance is helpful. Coercion/pressure/oppression (no matter how well-meant) is much more likely to cause harm than to help.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Oh, and since someone's probably bound to point out how irresponsible, and unproductive, it is to blame my parents for my problems and shortcomings -- I'll throw in here that I already know that.

My previous post was not for the purpose of blaming my parents and absolving myself of all responsibility: it was for the purpose of illustrating that coercion usually has the opposite result from the one the coercer is trying to achieve.


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Regarding the idea that Consensual Living (or UNoppressive, or non-coercive, or whatever-you-want-to-call-it, parenting), results in children who can't get jobs or find a way to rise above poverty -- that just sounds like another big dose of oppressive fear-mongering to me.

I personally think it would have the opposite effect. Of course, I can't provide proof, because neither I nor anyone I know has been raised without heavy doses of parental oppression in the form of coercion, pressure, and punishments.

Actually, Anna Brown who coined the term "Consensual Living" wrote the following in an old thread:

Quote:

My parents were AWESOME! We (there were 3 of us) were always treated with respect and my mom always says how much she loved our teen years. We were not "rebellious" at all. I loved my parents and trusted them. I could talk to them about anything and they would listen and offer advice but they were not coercive, never hit or even yelled - heated discussions maybe







but we were all given equal say.

So I am parenting this way, in part, because of my parents and in part because it is what feels right in my heart.

Anna - need to go call mom and tell her I love her!
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...&postcount=124

Pat


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Well, I guess now I know "of" someone who wasn't raised under oppressive parenting!








I'm so glad for Anna, and for all the lives she's now getting to have an impact on. And you're having a tremendous impact too, Pat!


----------



## lisalou (May 20, 2005)

I've always thought that this was the one thing my parents did well. They never had any specific expectations for us as children. All they wanted is that we stretch ourselves, find our bliss and live up to our own potential, if that makes sense. We were expected to do our best and if I had be a C student then my parents would have been fine with that as long as I was doing my best. Well they probably would have offered to get me help but I wouldn't have been punished or a disappointment to them. As for career they just wanted me to be happy and self-sufficient. They're ok that I'm only having one child. etc., etc.

I hope to give dd that much room to find herself and grow and explore. I'm hoping that by having more information than my parents did that I don't end up stifling her interests but can only help to add to her exploration.

My roommate freshman year in college had a mother who dropped out of college to be a music teacher in order to get married and have kids (she was resentful about that) and her father was a failed business man. My roommate's double major was music and business. Her parents pushed her to live out their unfulfilled dreams. I'm not sure I've ever met anyone more stressed in my life.


----------



## Imogen (Jul 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
Well, there is defining success based on income and then there is poverty.

Poverty can be so destructive and limiting to an individual, it is definitely something to be avoided, period.

Oh, and "voluntary" poverty - i.e. starving artist but could get a day job if required - isn't poverty, IMHO - poverty involves a definitive lack of choice about it.

Oh and I LOVE what hippymamma69 said

exactly!!!!
I'd use this as my sig, but it is too long.







:

I realise that my fears are my fears







I know that I need to battle to overcome the issues that I have regarding financial security. I know that the most important thing is raising my son to make informed decisions for himself.

Peace


----------



## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
Well, there is defining success based on income and then there is poverty.

Poverty can be so destructive and limiting to an individual, it is definitely something to be avoided, period.

Oh, and "voluntary" poverty - i.e. starving artist but could get a day job if required - isn't poverty, IMHO - poverty involves a definitive lack of choice about it.

Absolutely. But how do you prevent that, as a parent? Short of leaving your kids an enormous inheritance, how can you protect them from poverty? Especially while being un-oppressive? I really wish I knew. Poverty is hell. Unemployability is hell. Being different often leads to unemployability.

Better question: how can we unoppressively parent while also preparing our children to survive as best they can in an oppressive world?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Regarding the idea that Consensual Living (or UNoppressive, or non-coercive, or whatever-you-want-to-call-it, parenting), results in children who can't get jobs or find a way to rise above poverty -- that just sounds like another big dose of oppressive fear-mongering to me.

I personally think it would have the opposite effect. Of course, I can't provide proof, because neither I nor anyone I know has been raised without heavy doses of parental oppression in the form of coercion, pressure, and punishments. I can't even claim that my own children are growing up totally free from all that. I keep digging deeper, and finding layers of unsuspected oppressiveness, within my own parenting.

So ... about the only case I can make is that parental oppression sure hasn't made me rich. Every time you interfere with children's and young people's explorations, and keep directing them to the pursuits YOU feel are more useful, there's an increasing risk that they're going to end up totally out-of-sync with their own hunches, interests, and passions -- which, according to most entrepreneurs, are what you have to keep believing in to get rich.

To me, the reasoning that "we have to coerce/oppress our kids to prevent them from ending up in oppressive situations due to poverty," is a lot like the mainstream reasoning that parents have to force weaning, separation, and solitary sleeping arrangements so their children will be secure and independent.

Most parents here would agree that the opposite is true: children who are allowed to wean and separate from parents at their own paces, tend to be more secure and independent than those who were pushed.

Of course, how each of us sees this is going to be heavily influenced by our views of human nature. If we see our children as naturally inquisitive and eager to learn, and also eager to gain skills that will help them navigate the world and get the things they want, we're going to be less likely to let fear guide us in our parenting. We're going to apply our energies toward helping our children succeed in getting more and more of the things they want.

On the other hand, if we think the only way children will learn is if we push them, and provide positive reinforcements when they jump through the right hoops, and punishments when they dilly-dally -- then naturally we're going to have lots of fears that Consensual Living (or UN-oppressive parenting) is going to ruin our children's lives.

This weekend we visited my mom, and our 7yo was demonstrating how rapidly she could run on all fours. Mom kept saying, "I don't really see that as an accomplishment for a 7yo; I can think of lots of other things that _would_ be an accomplishment." I jumped in and said *I* thought it was an accomplishment, because dd was going really fast.

Mom's comments (and subtle attempt to re-direct my dd toward pursuits that she -- Grandma -- would be impressed with) remind me of how underhanded oppression can be. It wasn't like my mom was directly saying, "Stop that!" and telling dd she HAD to do XYZ, or else.

She was just using dd's hunger for her attention and approval, to try to get her to jump through some Grandma-approved hoops that I'm sure _she thought_ would really be "for dd's own good" in the long-run.

In a way, the underhanded oppression can sometimes be more powerful than the straightforward kind. When adults use blatant force to get kids to do what they want, at least the kids have no illusion that it was really their (the kids') idea in the first place.

That is a valid point, certainly. Parental oppression didn't make me rich. But it did make me functional. Had I been raised unoppressively, I would probably be completely asocial, completely self contained, and of course completely unemployable. And maybe I would have been happy that way. In fact, I am almost sure that I would have been very happy that way! I would love just to be by myself, left to my own devices, not burdened with communication or interaction. That would be a great life to me. But, I would be completely powerless. Completely at the mercy of others.

This would be much easier for me, probably, if I didn't so blatantly view my older daughter as basically *me.* I am so much less worried about the 4 year old, and even the babies, but that 7 year old daughter, that mini-me.... will she inherit my socioeconomic powerlessness? I feel such a strong urge to prevent that. To make her functional and conformist, not to change _her_, but to change her prospects. So that she will never have to live the misery of being completely at the mercy of another person.

And yet I know this is not rational. No one is truly independent, with the possible exception of maybe some survivalists in the woods, and really not even them... everyone is at the mercy of someone else, of an employer, of clients, of a spouse.... we're all interdependent. I know this. But. I want all of my babies to be employable. So that at least they will have some semblance of a choice. But. I do not want to oppress them. I do not want to be like so many other parents and force them into a conformist box to assuage my own anxiety. And, really, I am an argument against myself. I am financially secure only by virtue of my spouse. Without him, I'm sunk. And still I am anxious. Financial security is financial security, and anxiety is anxiety. The first does not guarantee freedom from the second. I should know that. But, still I worry.

And if you understood all that, you deserve a cookie.


----------



## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna* 
Being different often leads to unemployability.

Better question: how can we unoppressively parent while also preparing our children to survive as best they can in an oppressive world?
.









:

On the fear note...I was trying to think of the circumstances where I am most opressive, and I came up with bedtime.

I have to fight with my kids every nap and every bedtime almost to get them to go to sleep. It's not because they don't need sleep either. I am not sure why we fight about it so much. I am not loosing that battle-not because I am afraid to loose, but because I am not going to allow my children to loose sleep because I was "respecting their needs." IMO, children dont know what they need sometimes (in our case-SLEEP!) and in order to respect that need, I have to put up a fight.

It sucks.

But it really has nothing to do with fear.

It has everything to do with them getting the sleep they need.

If I have to be opressive to give them something they NEED, so be it.

That said, I try really hard to find alternatives every chance I get at bedtime. And sometimes it helps bedtime to go smoothly.

Mostly though, I have accepted the fact that bedtime is going to be a battle every night with 3 kids.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna* 
That is a valid point, certainly. Parental oppression didn't make me rich. But it did make me functional. Had I been raised unoppressively, I would probably be completely asocial, completely self contained, and of course completely unemployable. And maybe I would have been happy that way. In fact, I am almost sure that I would have been very happy that way! I would love just to be by myself, left to my own devices, not burdened with communication or interaction. That would be a great life to me. But, I would be completely powerless. Completely at the mercy of others.

But ... there are lots of opportunities for introverted people to earn money, even by doing work on their computers from home. I hate it that introversion is so often treated as a disability to be overcome.

Quote:

I feel such a strong urge to prevent that. To make her functional and conformist, not to change _her_, but to change her prospects. So that she will never have to live the misery of being completely at the mercy of another person.
I'm puzzled, because on the one hand you say your parents' oppression made you functional, yet down here you say the opposite:

Quote:

And, really, I am an argument against myself. I am financially secure only by virtue of my spouse. Without him, I'm sunk. And still I am anxious. Financial security is financial security, and anxiety is anxiety. The first does not guarantee freedom from the second. I should know that. But, still I worry.
See, I'm not seeing how parental oppression really helped you.

If, instead of trying to force you to be more social (or whatever form the oppression took, you know better than I do), your parents had provided opportunities for you to exercise your true gifts (and of course I don't know your parents, maybe they did), I think you probably _still_ would have married your husband -- but also would have some skills to fall back on, in case something ever happened to your husband's income.

When you say that without oppression, you would have been completely asocial, self-contained, and unemployable -- are you saying that you truly had no interests? That you just sat around staring into space, and were deliriously happy doing just that and nothing else?

I'm sorry, but that picture just doesn't "jive" with what I believe about human nature. Of course, I know I need to be open to having my theories disproved. But it's really hard for me to let go of my theory that everyone's interested in _something_, and everyone has a desire to gain mastery in _some_ area.

I realize some parents get stuck in a rut when it comes to what skills they see as "practical" and "employable." But I honestly believe that when parents are willing to just pull out the stops and wholeheartedly help their children follow their own passions -- the children themselves will eventually find a way to make it work in the world of economics.

I think your belief that it's important to have power, so you're not living your whole life at others' mercy, is a part of _you_ and not just something your parents taught you. Thus, my hypothesis (which of course I can neither prove nor disprove) is that if you'd grown up without oppression, but with tons of encouragement to follow your own dreams, you would have found a way to support yourself.

I recall reading the book, _Coloring Outside the Lines_, and hearing how the author kept nurturing his son's love of subways. He had no idea what this meant in terms of a career, but when his son asked what he should major in in college, he said, "Subways," and told his son to figure out a way to do that. I think his son went into urban planning.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
I have to fight with my kids every nap and every bedtime almost to get them to go to sleep. It's not because they don't need sleep either. I am not sure why we fight about it so much. I am not loosing that battle-not because I am afraid to loose, but because I am not going to allow my children to loose sleep because I was "respecting their needs." IMO, children dont know what they need sometimes (in our case-SLEEP!) and in order to respect that need, I have to put up a fight.

I only have 2 kids, not 3, so I can't say I've "been there done that." But what happens if you don't fight them? Don't they eventually go to sleep?

Quote:

If I have to be opressive to give them something they NEED, so be it.
I clearly don't know your situation, so of course I don't have the answers -- but I can't help thinking there's a way to help them meet their sleep needs without force.

With our own, dh and I often just go lie down when we get tired and eventually our girls join us.

Of course, I suppose as little ones get older, they get more comfortable with staying up on their own?

And then if you have a schedule where you have to get up early to be somewhere, they don't get enough sleep? But if they miss some sleep one night, wouldn't they just crash earlier the next?


----------



## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Brigianna* 
Absolutely. But how do you prevent that, as a parent? Short of leaving your kids an enormous inheritance, how can you protect them from poverty? Especially while being un-oppressive? I really wish I knew. Poverty is hell. Unemployability is hell. Being different often leads to unemployability.

I think this is where critical thinking comes in.

I have some friends who demand to be "taken as they are". But then complain that no one likes them. Well, sorry, we don't get it both ways - as my mom once said "when you dance to the beat of a different drummer, most people will think you don't know how to dance."

I am not arguing for social conformity - but a lack of social conformity has a price. 'Course, social conformity has a price. Heck, everything comes at a price - our choices are about what price we are willing to pay for which freedom. There ain't no perfect choice.

How do you try to protect your kids against poverty? By giving them skills that can earn them money and giving them skills to make good financial decisions (such as living with in a budget, avoiding predatory loans, making wise decisions for student debt, etc). Teach them about how certain choices may close doors for them in the future, while others will open many. Teach them that every decision has negative consequences as well as positive, and that they need to know what those consequences are before making an informed decision.

Teach them that money != value. Money can be a blessing to allow you to experience true choice and money can be a curse, trapping you in a life you cannot be your true self in.

And that poverty is a lack of power rather than a lack of money (though a lack of money definitely can contribute to a lack of power). Many things can mitigate against this lack of power - education and skills, hard work, family resources, good health, love and friendship, community - and that those things also need to be invested in and protected, especially when sh!t happens, as it always does.

Just some thoughts.

Oh, and another thing my mom always told me.

Quote:

When you come to a barrier, go over it. If you cannot go over it, go under. If you cannot go under, go around, and if you cannot go around, go through. But first, determine what is so wonderful on the other side of the barrier.


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Why does an adult have to be "employable"? Why not the sole proprietor of one's own business? An author, an artist, a consultant, marketing resource, service provider, caretaker, manager, etc. etc. etc. _Or, a content recluse?!_

Brigianna, your passion about neurodiveristy, politics, parenting, religion, etc. etc. could be lucrative, if that were your desire. The depth and breadth of your knowledge is fascinating and useful! People enjoy (and chafe at) the benefits of your sharing every day.







Mine too!









When we feel empowered, rather than a victim of others, *we claim our power by making our own way*. Even having been "oppressed" as a child, I never lost my sense of personal empowerment. It is innate. I believe it may well be _taught out of_ children systematically, by the institutions which embrace conformity and compliance. But, every two year old, whom I've ever met, embraces his own personal power! I choose to facilitate that power in others, of all ages, so that they can recognize it.

There is an allegory of the bird who lived in a cage; but believed that he couldn't live in any other way. But, the door to the cage had always been open. However, the bird wasn't aware of it. The bird could always be free, but his beliefs kept him imprisoned.

_Wishes can come true, if you believe in them with all your heart._~Jiminy Cricket









Pat


----------



## turnipmama (Oct 29, 2006)

Ok, I just had a long thoughtful post and lost it! Anyway, it has been so interesting reading everyone's responses! Lots of stuff to think about.

I think oppression can come in many forms. I don't think setting safe limits is oppressive, its good parenting. (I am not going to let DD run out into traffic because she wants to, ect.) But I think you can be oppressive without spanking, unreasonable rules, ect. I think subtle comments, attitudes, and reactions can be even more oppressive.

For example...I wasn't told I COULDN'T try out for a sports team or COULDN'T go to a large university...but I was told countless horror stories from my mother about how awful her life turned out (and it wasn't awful, she just plays the victim a lot). I think there are better ways to gently guide your child, such as "I didn't enjoy my experience with that because of x,y, and z, but your experience might be different and their are many pros and cons to consider". Does that make sense?


----------



## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
Why does an adult have to be "employable"? Why not the sole proprietor of one's own business? An author, an artist, a consultant, marketing resource, service provider, caretaker, manager, etc. etc. etc. _Or, a content recluse?!_

Small business is the backbone of any economy. And women owned businesses are the fastest growing type of business in the US right now.

It can be a terrifying prospect to start out on your own, but it is also incredibly empowering. Taking risks is always like that.

If you can find something you enjoy doing, and would do for free anyway, and figure out how to get paid for it, well, that to me is heaven...


----------



## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *turnipmama* 
I think oppression can come in many forms. I don't think setting safe limits is oppressive, its good parenting. (I am not going to let DD run out into traffic because she wants to, ect.) But I think you can be oppressive without spanking, unreasonable rules, ect. I think subtle comments, attitudes, and reactions can be even more oppressive.

yes. I know that my parents, for example, would have been _very disappointed_ if I didn't go to college or didn't have a professional job.

However, I do appreciate the dose of realism my parents tried to instill. When I was a kid, I wanted to be an actress - my dad told me that frankly, while I was good, I wasn't good enough (or well connected enough) for it to be easy. That achieving my dream would take A LOT of very hard work and sacrifices that I may not want to make to become a successful actress. And that he thought I might not be thick enough skinned for the constant criticism and vulnerability.

yeah, this made me change my mind about becoming an actress. I still acted in high school, but it became increasingly clear that I didn't have "star" potential - not thin and tall enough, not funny enough, not quirky enough to meet what hollywood was looking for (and I lived in LA, surrounded by potential actors, I could see for myself their lives).

Sure I could probably earn enough to eat, but I hated being a waitress.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
I have some friends who demand to be "taken as they are". But then complain that no one likes them.

Hmmm. In my experience, when people are well-liked, it's not because they're "just like everyone else" -- but because of their genuine love for other people. My guess is that if your friends aren't liked, maybe it has less to do with their uniquenesses or "weirdnesses," and more to do with their lack of real, genuine, interest in or concern for others.

I'm reminded of the old saying, "If you want to HAVE friends, you have to BE a friend." Of course, since you claim them as YOUR friends, maybe they're not _totally_ lacking in friend qualities, huh?


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I had some more thoughts about what Siobhang shared about her dad's guidance regarding acting. When discussing highly competitive fields (and really any field), I don't think it's oppressive at all to encourage our kids to think about whether a particular field REALLY IS their passion.

I, for instance, liked the thought of being an actress because I enjoyed hamming it up for an audience. But I never really caught the theater-bug, as evidenced by my total lack of interest in involving myself in any other way, in school and church productions. In contrast, there were kids who just always had that "itch" to be a part of every production -- whether they were up front or busy behind the scenes.

I've realized I'm much more passionate about writing and verbal expression, than I am about theater. Though I'd love to be a best-selling author, I'm also happy getting published in our local neighborhood newspaper, and writing comments on message-boards. Writing's something I'll keep doing whether I ever "make it big" or not. And I also love to read, way more than I love going to plays and musicals.

So, if one of my children expresses an interest in acting, music, professional sports ... I'll encourage her to get to know that particular business inside-out. When you're passionate about something, I think it's natural to want to do that, anyway. But it can be a real damper to just mainly hear discouraging things, because so few people really make it big as actresses, athletes, or musicians.

There are so many ways to pursue your passion, if you're willing to think creatively and approach it from a variety of different angles.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
I am not loosing that battle-not because I am afraid to loose, but because I am not going to allow my children to loose sleep because I was "respecting their needs." IMO, children dont know what they need sometimes (in our case-SLEEP!) and in order to respect that need, I have to put up a fight.

It sucks.

But it really has nothing to do with fear.

It has everything to do with them getting the sleep they need.

You're sure there's no fear involved here? Why is it so important to you, then?

I'm seriously not trying to be offensive ... it's just hard for me to conceive of WHY fighting to get your kids to sleep is so important, if it's not that you're worried about some potential harm resulting if you let them stay up and choose their own bed/naptimes?

And to me, that's a form of fear -- because you're working hard to avoid some potentially negative result, that apparently you think would be more unpleasant than the battles you're now having.

Don't want to keep harping on the bedtimes thing; I know I've already posted once. I guess I just have sad/angry memories of this being a battle with my own parents.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

In my own case, when I used to try to get my oldest to take some bites of certain foods before she could have dessert, my motivation was definitely fear: fear that she'd end up with a nutritional deficiency if I just let her eat whatever she wanted to.

Now I've realized that my children really will get the nutrition they need, if I simply make a variety of nutritious foods available, and share information (in response to their interest) on how various foods help/affect our bodies.

For me, the best way to counter fear is to remind myself of what wonderful creations humans really are -- and of what a wonderful drive each human has to live well and be healthy. It's not just ME wanting good things for my children: THEY want good things, too!


----------



## hippymomma69 (Feb 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
"when you dance to the beat of a different drummer, most people will think you don't know how to dance."

I love this LOL! Your mom has the best sayings!

peace,
robyn


----------



## hippymomma69 (Feb 28, 2007)

I just wanted to add a thought based on my own experience....

I was encouraged as a child to be a nonconformist, "an individual" by my mom. This was both good and bad. On the good side, I felt that she supported all my dreams and who I was. On the bad side, it left me at a loss for some of the "social graces". I didn't talk about anything others were interested in. I often came across as bossy or snobby. To this day I still have no clue how to apply makeup LOL

I went through a phase in middle school (doesn't everyone) of feeling an INTENSE need to conform....but my mom was of NO HELP during that phase. It was it's own form of oppression - to feel like I had to be ashamed of my wish to be like others and to be liked by others and not seen as weird. At times, my mom's own idea of non-conformity made her blind to what I wanted to do or needed at that time. Here's a really silly example:

My mom is the ultra-feminist. When the time came and other girls were buying "training" bras and starting to shave their legs I couldn't talk with my mom about it because she thought all of that was silly. It was awful and akward - I was embarrassed in the gym because I was hairy and bra-less. In some sense I was fighting my mom's fight against oppression of women - but it wasn't *my* fight (yet!). Of course now I totally get where she is coming from....but wasn't that it's own sort of oppression?

It's only been in recent years that I've been able to talk with her about these things, and of course she feels awful. She thought she was giving me the gift of non-conformity/individuality - but it was making me miserable. Of course now I have a strong sense of individuality and all - but I guess I'm saying that the knife cuts both ways and you have to walk a fine line between encouraging your child and giving them the tools they need to fit in or not as they choose. That's why I guess I'm more into the idea of making a child aware of what the "rules" are first, then work on bending them or seeing through them as they get older....

just my 2 cents....
peace,
robyn


----------



## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

This is a very interesting discussion.

I don't think that enforcing social conformity on children helps children succeed socially. At least, that was not my experience. My mother was very anxious that I learn to conform and that I make friends and that I do well in school and make a good living at a prestigious job.

I still have a lot of trouble doing some of the things she wanted for me. Parents who love unconditionally provide children with a much better basis for social interaction, for learning, and for finding pleasurable ways to make a living. You don't have to be like everyone else to do well in school, to make friends, and to find your way in life and love. You have to be confident in yourself and your own abilities.

My mom has already started telling me which careers would be okay for my four year old to pursue and which wouldn't. He's four. You know? He's a perfect little four year old person, doing exactly what he should be doing at his age. Even my mom can see that, but God forbid we should just allow him to enjoy himself and not control every aspect of everything.

Yes, I think I have different goals for my child than my mother had for me. My mother has never, and would never say, "I just want you to be happy." It's not true! She wants me to be successful. (I wouldn't say it to my kid just because it's usually attached to a guilt trip!)


----------



## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain optimism* 
My mother has never, and would never say, "I just want you to be happy."

My dh and I have had discussions about this. He says "I just want our kids to be happy."

and I say:

"There are many emotions in life-happy being one of them, and It's not nessicarily what I desire for my kids.

I want my kids to be connected to a path

That they know is why they were put on this earth.

And if it takes traveling through hell to get there (and thus not really being "happy" like YEA!)

Than thats what they need to do.

I desire my kids to be _called_.

Not Happy."

Just wondering if anyone else has had that discusion with dp?

Sorry for the OT...


----------



## lisalou (May 20, 2005)

My parents wanted me to be happy and self sufficient. And their definition of happy was also specific in its way but I had to find it myself. It's not empty happiness of just doing whatever you want. It's true happiness of living a good life and finding your bliss. As I raise my own child I see how difficult it is to just facilitate that. It would be much easier to just plan out dd's life.


----------



## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

yeah, I suppose to say "happy" you would have to define happy.

I feel like my dh means "happy." Like just the emotion Happy.

I think thats silly, because no one is "Happy." Thats not a state of being to me.

Peaceful....content....THOSE are states of being that can be acheived.

Without sadness, anger, etc-they wont know what Happy even means. I have no problem with my kids feeling negative emotions/


----------



## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

hippymomma69, I totally hear you. My parents weren't like your mom, but I think I run the risk of parenting that way myself. My DD is not yet 4, and we are already running into it to some degree. DH and I value nonconformity and individuality a lot, and ironically, at times I think we unconsciously push it on DD. I find the balance rather hard to strike, especially now that DD is "in the world" and being faced daily with other kids who find her odd. Sometimes I suspect I encourage her natural quirkiness TOO much.


----------



## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
DH and I value nonconformity and individuality a lot, and ironically, at times I think we unconsciously push it on DD. I find the balance rather hard to strike, especially now that DD is "in the world" and being faced daily with other kids who find her odd.


Dh and I also value nonconformity and individuality, and encourage it in dd. For us (so far), the balance comes from honesty about our cultural norms. We've had a lot of discussions about what is the norm in our culture--and other cultures, and how our choices go with or against the norms. We also model making choices that are right for us, but run counter to social norms. I guess temperament plays a big role, but dd seems to appreciate knowing ahead of time when she is going against a norm, so that she can weigh if the risk (being seen as odd) against the benefit (going with her first preference). More often than not, she sticks with her first preference with a "well, *I* like it!"







: And then, of course, we reinforce that that is the most important thing.


----------



## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Hippymomma69 wrote:

Quote:

I think the most important tool we can give our kids to resist oppression is to teach them critical thinking.










Quote:

I was encouraged as a child to be a nonconformist, "an individual" by my mom. This was both good and bad. On the good side, I felt that she supported all my dreams and who I was. On the bad side, it left me at a loss for some of the "social graces". I didn't talk about anything others were interested in. I often came across as bossy or snobby. [...] I went through a phase in middle school (doesn't everyone) of feeling an INTENSE need to conform....but my mom was of NO HELP during that phase. It was it's own form of oppression - to feel like I had to be ashamed of my wish to be like others and to be liked by others and not seen as weird. At times, my mom's own idea of non-conformity made her blind to what I wanted to do or needed at that time.








This sounds so familiar! My parents were like that about some issues. I think the problem is that when a parent values NONconformity, the child doesn't feel free to explore ALL options, only the options that are different from the norm.

Transformed wrote:

Quote:

My dh and I have had discussions about this. He says "I just want our kids to be happy."
and I say:
"There are many emotions in life-happy being one of them, and It's not nessicarily what I desire for my kids.
I want my kids to be connected to a path
That they know is why they were put on this earth.
And if it takes traveling through hell to get there (and thus not really being "happy" like YEA!)
Than thats what they need to do.
I desire my kids to be called.
Not Happy."

Just wondering if anyone else has had that discusion with dp?
My partner agrees with me on that, but I've had that discussion with my boss! She is extremely intelligent and has a bit of a grudge about people (I'm not one of them) who've told her that she should have had children in order to help increase the intelligence of the population. She says being smart is not important; the only important thing is to be happy. But I agree with you, Transformed. Most of the best things in my life have involved some periods of suffering and risk-of-suffering and not just being happy all the time.


----------



## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

This is such a great thread.

One thought I had about this issue of success (non-poverty in the trapped sense) is that I am not sure pushing anything around conformity helps in either direction. People who conform can often be downsized out of jobs too and end up in deep poverty.

I was thinking instead about what makes success and I really think overall in general terms it's being able to figure out what steps you need to take towards a goal, and to take them. (Along with accidents of birth and global economy and those sorts of things.)

So I think what's key for me is whether my son conforms or not, to help him learn that sometimes you have to decide whether you really want to reach a goal where you are going to have to conform along the way.

My example would probably be that I really was clueless about hair and makeup for a long time, and I still really can't be bothered half the time. So guess what, I am not in marketing or sales or anything like that.







But I did make it my job to learn at least a bit about how to apply makeup attractively, and which types of clothes look good on my body, and to be aware of social norms. I did that because *I* wanted to be able to do it and because I also knew it was necessary for other things I wanted to do.

I think it's entirely possible to raise kids so that they do experience true choice. But I also think it's really important to guide them to see the results of those choices. If you don't want to wear socially-appropriate clothes, okay, but I am not going to pretend people around you may not react to that, sort of thing.

Easily said when my son is 2.


----------



## WildCanaryCait (Aug 9, 2006)

this is a terrific thread! It sounds like almost everyone here is interested in unschooling...to which end I offer a few reading tidbits. "www.sandradodd.com" which has tons o links on all these awesome ideas and ideals in some cases......and Holt! John Holt....anything you can read by him. A.S.Neill too ...who wrote and lived 'Summerhill'. Unprocessed Child was a good one too. There are so many great reads that speak to the goal of not getting in our children's way. 'Course there's an unschooling thread here on MDC anyway


----------



## trinity6232000 (Dec 2, 2001)

I have really enjoyed reading threw this thread. I love all the different ideas of what raising
our kids means to us. How our own childhood has shaped how or how not we are teaching
our own children. This seriously was my most enjoyed thread to read in a long time.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
One of my goals is to raise kids who can think outside of the box, but not get locked out of it either.

This means to me a mix of pragmatic and idealistic dreams.

I would never tell my kids "you don't want to be X, because you won't make any money."

I WILL tell my kids "X is a noble profession. However, you need to recognize that the profession doesn't earn a lot of money, and that will require some sacrifices on your part - you won't be able to live at an upper middle class lifestyle AND be an X - since inheriting a fortune isn't an option ; )". And i would help my kids think through what they would have to do in order to succeed.

I agree. My parents (well more my mom) was always encouraging to me growing up. I could do
anything I wanted. I wanted to be a vocalist, I wanted to be a song writer. Nobody ever gave
me an example of how this could be a hard life. I said I wanted to be a rock star, and so it would
be, right?








My brother is a musician, and so is his gal. They live a good life, they are leading a life that means
a lot to the both of them. Is it happy, at times, are they being true to hearts, yes, is their life stressful,
OH YEAH.
I mean they own a house, they are warm, and they are fed. Do they worry about money everyday,
yes. They are in their early 40's and with one bad event they could loose everything they have worked
for.
So while I would love to encourage my dd's love of art (her dad is a broke professional artist) if she
decides to be a artist, I think I would like to encourage her love of many interests. I will be truthful
with her about life expectations, and how much certain professions earn. I would like to stress to her
(with love) to keep some activities as hobbies, or to think bigger. Example if she wants to be a artist
to think about going into art therapy, or something where she gets to use her love of art, while making
a living.

I have watched too many people struggle in creative lifestyles. This doesn't mean I would tell my
dd not to be an artist is this is her passion. I would support her in her choice, and be there to help
in any way. But I'm not going to lie and tell her that following her heart makes for a stress free
life, cause that's not been my personal experience.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
There is alot of social pressure to "keep your kids under control" and/or "Have good kids" (which means kids who jump when you say jump)
<snip>
I am not sure where these social pressures come from. TV? Parents? Husband? Other people with kids? School?

Do you guys know what I am talking about?

Yeah, I found this in school with dd. Last year her teacher told me that dd finishes too quickly
and then talks too much to other students. This year her teacher told me that dd is taking too
much time doing her work "too carefully".







: I've been told my dd is at times loud, overactive,
has a hard time staying on task, talks too much, BUT dd also gets the best grades in her class.
She is a dedicated student, and it's important to her that she hands in good work. These are all
qualities that are her. I didn't encourage this behavior. I have encouraged dd to be herself. I
don't want to change her, but try to give her the tools to use who she is naturally in a positive
manner.

I keep repeating this to teachers. I tell them upfront when they think their is a "problem" that
this is my dd's natural self, and while I will encourage her to use it in a positive manner, I won't
tell my dd that she is doing something "wrong".

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
I think this is where critical thinking comes in.

I have some friends who demand to be "taken as they are". But then complain that no one likes them. Well, sorry, we don't get it both ways


Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
Hmmm. In my experience, when people are well-liked, it's not because they're "just like everyone else" -- but because of their genuine love for other people. My guess is that if your friends aren't liked, maybe it has less to do with their uniquenesses or "weirdnesses," and more to do with their lack of real, genuine, interest in or concern for others.

I'm reminded of the old saying, "If you want to HAVE friends, you have to BE a friend." Of course, since you claim them as YOUR friends, maybe they're not _totally_ lacking in friend qualities, huh?

I have to agree with mammal_mama's reply to your post. I think one of the best qualities about
a person is that if they have an opinion, they need a leg to stand on. If a person is one who lives
their own life, dancing to their own beat, they can also be well liked. If they have the skills to
communicate with others without belittling and can communicate effectively their feelings and
values I feel that person will gain respect. Even in situations with people that disagree with their
choices.

-I learned early in my parenting of dd that she was born independent. As much as I thought I
could raise her to be a free thinker, she might not have. It just so happens that she did, and is
more of a free thinker than I could have instilled in her, she just is, it's who she is.

Before I was a parent I believed that they my child would follow my lead, and threw dd I have
learned that I am following hers. This is a really bad example but does anybody remember the
TV show Family Ties. How the parents were children of the 60's and their son was so different from
them? Well my dd happened to be born a person who thinks for herself, and seriously could give a
crap if somebody else agrees. At the same time she is very sweet, and giving. She SO dances
to her own beat. But if her natural self was that of somebody very different than me, more careful
somebody who wants to follow rather than push, I might find myself supporting that as well. Because
I want my child to be who they are. If they don't want to rock the boat, I feel I have to respect
that choice.

Instead of pointing our examples in my dd's life, telling her that ABC that she did was good, or
wrong. (Which I wouldn't do obviously) many times I focus more on the attitude of others. We
have had the best conversations watching Kid Nation. When I ask my dd what she would do if
she was there, who would she like to be friends with, why. Dd and I talk a lot. We talk about the
rules of school, and of home, and I have asked her if she sees a difference. If we have a rule at
home dd has the right to say she doesn't agree, and some rules have been changed because when
I listened to her view, she was right. I respect what she has to say. I really believe that if we give
our children a safe place to fall, they will feel safe being themselves. Who ever that is.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hippymomma69* 
I went through a phase in middle school (doesn't everyone) of feeling an INTENSE need to conform....but my mom was of NO HELP during that phase. It was it's own form of oppression - to feel like I had to be ashamed of my wish to be like others and to be liked by others and not seen as weird. At times, my mom's own idea of non-conformity made her blind to what I wanted to do or needed at that time. Here's a really silly example:

My mom is the ultra-feminist. When the time came and other girls were buying "training" bras and starting to shave their legs I couldn't talk with my mom about it because she thought all of that was silly. It was awful and akward - I was embarrassed in the gym because I was hairy and bra-less. In some sense I was fighting my mom's fight against oppression of women - but it wasn't *my* fight (yet!). Of course now I totally get where she is coming from....but wasn't that it's own sort of oppression?

See, I see the problem not so much as your mom "not teaching you the rules" -- as it was your mom not listening to you and helping you to get the things YOU wanted in life. Of course, I realize it was all really well meant -- and I respect your mom for at least listening to you NOW. Some parents never do listen, and just go on the defensive if their kids try to tell them what you've told your mom.

While I certainly agree that it's a good idea (as suggested by a previous poster) to prepare our children for others' potential reactions to various clothing and behavior choices --

I recall an example given by Sarah Fitz-Claridge, founder of TCS, in an article: "If you say 'f*ck' to Grandma, she's liable to get upset"







(probably not an exact quote) --

what you've shared is an example of how perceptive children and young people really are about social norms: you "figured out" that the teenage norm was shaving legs and wearing training bras without anyone having to spell it out to you. The problem wasn't that you didn't *know* the rule -- but that your mom wasn't open to looking at things from your point of view.

To my way of thinking, any time a parent downplays a child's goal or interest as "silly" or frivolous, that parent IS being very oppressive. For instance, I've heard of cases where little girls begged for more "princessy" toys and clothes -- but their feminist moms just poo-pooed it and insisted that they play with and wear only gender-free stuff.

I'm sure the intent was to protect them from our oppressive sexist society -- but they were being just as oppressive in the process, IMO.


----------



## turnipmama (Oct 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
To my way of thinking, any time a parent downplays a child's goal or interest as "silly" or frivolous, that parent IS being very oppressive. For instance, I've heard of cases where little girls begged for more "princessy" toys and clothes -- but their feminist moms just poo-pooed it and insisted that they play with and wear only gender-free stuff.

I'm sure the intent was to protect them from our oppressive sexist society -- but they were being just as oppressive in the process, IMO.

i agree with this one. I don't necessarily define UNoppressed as just plain being different or against the establishment. If my DD decides she really likes make-up and dresses and what the popular crowd likes that is fine...as long as it is what SHE wants and not someone else. I hope to raise my daughter in such a way that she has a good sense of individuality but I realize that will look different for everyone. What I will try to do is to let her be who SHE wants to be and not who I want her to be.

I am still amazed at some of the things I hear. I was in a store today and a woman was on a rant about how parents don't spank anymore. She talked about how the kids need to know who is in control and how to act. I do believe in discipline but I also do it gently and respect my children as human beings who have wants and needs just as I do. That doesn't mean I allow them to be terrors in public but I try to respond to their needs (as in, I'm really tired and want to go home!) rather than force them into submission...they certainly don't give them everything they want or give in all the time but I do respect them and try to find solutions that work for all of us. Does that make sense?


----------



## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

I have to confess I haven't read through the entire thread, so I may well be misinterpreting the point of this thread. But I try not to micromanage my children. They are what they are, and there is very little I can do about it. I take no credit for them being what I see as incredibly well adjusted whole beings. Whatever we do, our children are going to be manipulated, by us as parents, by peers, by education, by media and the system in which we live. But as a parent of an older teen, I am seeing that they have the opportunity to undo that manipulation and it is amazing to watch.

I try to make them aware that there is more going on that what they experience physically, that there is a "Good Source" from which everything and everybody flows and to which they will one day return. I cannot prevent the manipulation, neither can I make them wake up to it, but I hope I can assist them to utilize the tools they have been provided with to do it. The rest is up to them.


----------



## 93085 (Oct 11, 2007)

Quote:

To my way of thinking, any time a parent downplays a child's goal or interest as "silly" or frivolous, that parent IS being very oppressive. For instance, I've heard of cases where little girls begged for more "princessy" toys and clothes -- but their feminist moms just poo-pooed it and insisted that they play with and wear only gender-free stuff.

I'm sure the intent was to protect them from our oppressive sexist society -- but they were being just as oppressive in the process, IMO.
Amen.

This was me. And it really messed me up for a while. Not being denied princessy clothes, particularly...







...more just being steadily schooled to denigrate and disrespect my own completely normal desires. About everything, not just clothes. And to put undue weight on those desires--as if wanting neon pink stirrup pants would turn me into the "kind of" woman I didn't want to be. Or that my mother didn't want me to be. And that neither one of us would respect me anymore. And that the only way I could assure myself respect was to deny myself pleasure or frivolity.







:

My experience has convinced me that this is just not a good way to go with parenting.


----------



## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

I wanted to clarify my earlier statement about "being taken as I am".

The example I was thinking of were people I know who routinely flout social standards - such as showering often, saying please and thank you, telling little white lies when asked how they are. And it also includes going along to get along and holding their tongues when having unpopular opinions.

You (the general you, not anyone in particular) has every right to be true to yourself. And I have every right to not like your true self and to not want to be associated with you. ; )

IRL and online I hang out with A LOT of geeks and self-described misfits. I totally get what it feels like to not fit in, and to claim that "not fitting in" as an expression of ones personality rather than a lack of social skills. After awhile, there is a badge of honor at not fitting in, and intentionally flouting social rules.

However, the point I tend to have to make with folks who do not wish to conform to social rules - by all means, don't conform. Absolutely be true to yourself.

But don't expect the world to applaud either. Not conforming can take a great deal of bravery and sacrifice - and selective conformity can sometimes get you farther than full all out rebellion.

But then I am a "work within the system to change it" kind of girl. Again, every choice contains sacrifices and paths not taken. For my kids, I'd rather they know the rules and the selectively chose which ones to follow.

Is that clearer?


----------



## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

or as my dh just said - you can be true to yourself without being an a$$hole. Unfortunately, I know too many people who are unaware of this fact.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
IRL and online I hang out with A LOT of geeks and self-described misfits. I totally get what it feels like to not fit in, and to claim that "not fitting in" as an expression of ones personality rather than a lack of social skills. After awhile, there is a badge of honor at not fitting in, and intentionally flouting social rules.

Well, I still think that people who WANT to be liked and accepted, will find ways to do this without needing anyone else to prod and force them.

I'm not saying you're trying to prod your friends or anything -- just that if social acceptability was something they truly wanted, they'd find a way to get what they wanted.

Quote:

For my kids, I'd rather they know the rules and the selectively chose which ones to follow.
I certainly don't feel it's oppressive to dialog with my children about how various behavior choices are likely to be perceived by others. I find that many social norms are readily obvious, and children pick up on them by a kind of osmosis, if they see us habitually doing them (please and thank you for example). Others aren't as obvious, and that's where dialog (to the extent that the child's interested) can help.

Since your children get to selectively chose which rules they want to follow, that doesn't sound oppressive at all to me.


----------



## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Been thinking and thinking about this issue... there are so many ways that we, as members of a civilized society, are "oppressed" (I don't like that word--but that we are, in whatever way, not-fully-free). And I want to protect our kids. I want to be their ally against the world. I want to give them a safe space where the world does not apply. So. That's what I'm trying to do. Even when it seems like I'm having to beat the world away with a stick.

Yeah. That's all I've got.

Still thinking.

Carry on.


----------



## JSerene (Nov 4, 2004)

I'm enjoying this discussion; I think it's important to put a lot of thought in how you parent.

My mom drilled it into my head that it was important to be myself and that it was not only okay to be different, but ideal. What became painfully apparent as I got older and grew into myself, so to speak, was that she wanted me to be different _like her_. She was/is very hostile to me actually being who I am. She always prided herself on how cool she was because she used drugs and partied and was very beautiful. She looked down on normal, boring people. Well, guess what, I've never been cool and I have nothing in common with her and it is not okay with her.

Some parents say they want their kids to be themselves and be unoppressed, but they don't really mean it. Sometimes I have to look at the decisions I make as a parent to see if I have an agenda, or if it's really in my dd's best interest.


----------



## 93085 (Oct 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JSerene* 
I'm enjoying this discussion; I think it's important to put a lot of thought in how you parent.

My mom drilled it into my head that it was important to be myself and that it was not only okay to be different, but ideal. What became painfully apparent as I got older and grew into myself, so to speak, was that she wanted me to be different _like her_. She was/is very hostile to me actually being who I am. She always prided herself on how cool she was because she used drugs and partied and was very beautiful. She looked down on normal, boring people. Well, guess what, I've never been cool and I have nothing in common with her and it is not okay with her.

Some parents say they want their kids to be themselves and be unoppressed, but they don't really mean it. Sometimes I have to look at the decisions I make as a parent to see if I have an agenda, or if it's really in my dd's best interest.

Yes. My parents wanted me not to conform to the suburban world in which we lived; they wanted me to conform to them--be bookish, spurn all music written after 1950, wear my hair short, and read Dickens for fun. Becoming a cheerleader and singing in show choir were supreme acts of rebellion for me.


----------



## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
or as my dh just said - you can be true to yourself without being an a$$hole. Unfortunately, I know too many people who are unaware of this fact.









Me too.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jescafa* 
Yes. My parents wanted me not to conform to the suburban world in which we lived; they wanted me to conform to them--be bookish, spurn all music written after 1950, wear my hair short, and read Dickens for fun. Becoming a cheerleader and singing in show choir were supreme acts of rebellion for me.

















Kinda like how I sometimes feel like a rebel for being a SAHM and practicing AP and Gentle Discipline.


----------



## lisalou (May 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JSerene* 
I'm enjoying this discussion; I think it's important to put a lot of thought in how you parent.

My mom drilled it into my head that it was important to be myself and that it was not only okay to be different, but ideal. What became painfully apparent as I got older and grew into myself, so to speak, was that she wanted me to be different _like her_. She was/is very hostile to me actually being who I am. She always prided herself on how cool she was because she used drugs and partied and was very beautiful. She looked down on normal, boring people. Well, guess what, I've never been cool and I have nothing in common with her and it is not okay with her.

Some parents say they want their kids to be themselves and be unoppressed, but they don't really mean it. Sometimes I have to look at the decisions I make as a parent to see if I have an agenda, or if it's really in my dd's best interest.

That's what I wonder about. Sure you can teach your child to conform or not conform but what happens if they choose the opposite? How are you going to feel if you end up with Alex P. Keaton? Or my dp and I we wonder what will happen if dd is popular and a cheerleader or a born again Christian investment banker. How can I be openminded about something that brings back painful memories for me? Such a balancing act parenting is.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I don't think we can "teach" true non-conformity. If we're "teaching" it, then really we're just teaching our kids to conform to our particular brand of non-conformity (as mentioned by at least one pp).

So if we "teach" non-conformity, our kids are still going to feel forced into a mold, and an unpopular mode at that.

I think the main way to prevent doing this is to remind ourselves that our children are human beings with their own identities -- just as we are. We have thoughts and lives of our own, and we're not just little off-shoots of our parents. If we treat our kids with the same love and acceptance we wish we'd had from our parents (and hopefully some of us DID have it), then we can't go too far wrong, IMO.

I keep remembering that my kids are going into times and places I'll never see. They're going to need skills and perspectives I many not even (naturally) value or see any use for. And because of the unique perspectives they already have, growing up with AP and unschooling, I need to be open to having my life changed by their insights.

It's like Faber and Mazlish said in their _How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen_ _So Kids Will Talk_ book -- much of what we're learning is so alien to the way we were raised, it's always going to feel like a second language to us. But our kids'll be fluent!


----------



## turnipmama (Oct 29, 2006)

How are all you mama's handling the holiday season? I have seen a few threads about "Do X or Santa won't come" stuff...how do you deal with this Santa always watching, you won't get you're presents if you aren't "good" stuff? What about all the materialism in general this holiday season which many (including myself) can find "oppressive" at times?


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *turnipmama* 
How are all you mama's handling the holiday season? I have seen a few threads about "Do X or Santa won't come" stuff...how do you deal with this Santa always watching, you won't get you're presents if you aren't "good" stuff? What about all the materialism in general this holiday season which many (including myself) can find "oppressive" at times?

We've started spending this time with just our immediate family, and visiting my mom on a different day, for a variety of reasons, my family's disdain for my unoppressive parenting being a big one.

On the Santa thing, when dd1 was 4 she shared with my sister and niece (we were at my sister's house for Christmas) that she'd learned that Santa's not real, but Jesus is. My niece said, "Santa's more important than Jesus!"

And my sister told dd she was making the wrong choice, by being honest about her discovery. She told dd that as long as everyone still thought she believed in Santa, she'd get more presents.

I wasn't directly confrontational (I wish I had been), but dd and I had a conversation later. Needless to say, I let her know I disagreed with my niece's comment. I also didn't like my sister's implication that it's better to be dishonest with people.

I guess my dd's haven't had so much experience with the "be good or you won't get anything" kind of [email protected] For one thing, we can't afford to hang out in shopping centers as much as I did when I was a kid. And maybe just miss a lot of those comments.


----------



## hippiemum21580 (Jul 14, 2007)

This is something I am finding much easier to do now that I am a single mum as my DH always was telling my son he "couldn't" like pink or play with dolls, etc... My oldest son is very sensitive and up until a year ago he LOVED pink simply because it was his Grammy's favorite color and grammy is his best buddy.







I want my children to live truly satisfied lives, whether they are married or single, broke or poor. Right now I do not meet standards of many of my family and friends. I am a single mom and broke.....BUt this is the happiest, most assured and at peace with myself and my path that I have ever been. THAT is simply all I wish for my boys. I spent mnay years not really knowing who I was since I put too much weight on others opinions and expectations.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Congratulations, Tonia!


----------

