# not teaching him "tricks"



## ContentMama (Oct 13, 2010)

I suppose this is half vent/half looking for feedback.

My ex-MIL watches ds 2 days a week while I work from home. Yesterday, I must have heard her say "how big is Lorenzo? sooo big" about 15 or so times. She wants him to put his arms out with the so big.

It drives me crazy! I feel like she's trying to train a dog to go get the ball. My philosophy is to let the child lead in his learning. Mostly this means to hang out and pay attention to him while he does his thing and to be involved when he seems to want that...and not to distract or direct him with over the top attention, praise and teaching.

I didn't say anything to her. When I came down at one point she tried to get him to perform the trick in front of me and he didn't. I just didn't emphasize it and changed the focus. Really, I'm not sure what to say or how to approach it that doesn't feel to me like controlling her interactions with him. Once a while back when he started pulling to standing, she wanted to have him perform for his dad. I said "no, I don't want to make him do tricks. his dad will see when it comes naturally." So in general she knows my stance.

While I do make a point to say what I want with the "big" things (food, no tv, etc), with the day to day interactions I generally feel unsure about my place. I lead by example in how I interact with him and realize everyone will have their own way. Maybe I'm making a bigger deal out of it than it is?

I'm actually considering looking into alternative childcare because of the way that she is.

Any thoughts or perspectives?


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## holothuroidea (Mar 30, 2008)

I am in the same boat with my MIL, and even to a certain extent with my DH. They both have this tendency to direct play and if the child (baby!) doesn't play the way that they want they get really... just mean. As an example, my MIL will come over and ask my DD what her favorite toy is and she'll bring over a dinosaur or something and play that the t-rex is eating a tree and MIL will say, "T-rexes don't eat trees, they eat other dinosaurs." Then she'll coax DD into making the t-rex eat another one of her dinosaurs and MIL will say, "Good girl!" Then DD will not want to play with dinosaurs for a month. I get that it's not "correct" for a t-rex to eat a tree, but she is only three and not really ready for the whole food-chain lesson. She will learn in due time, but right now she just wants to play with her dinosaurs in her fantasy universe where they are all nice to each other and what is wrong with that? I especially loathe the "GOOD GIRL!" all the time. I counted one time MIL came over and she said it over 50 times. My DH isn't nearly as bad because he doesn't want to be that way but he will revert back into that behavior sometimes (I think because he was raised that way, you know how it goes).

Another example is that DD will take stacking blocks and line them up side-by-side by size and MIL will say. "No, that is not how you play with those. You have to make a tower. Let's make a tower." Then, she'll grab the blocks out of DD's hands to make a tower with them. DD loves her Nana and just lets her do it, but then she won't play with stacking blocks for a while. She'll also have a tremendous attitude the next day, which is out of character for her toothache-inducing sweet personality.

So I can commiserate. I don't have a lot of advice but I think you should trust your instincts as far as childcare is concerned. However, even if you do get him another childcare provider she is still going to interact with him because she is his grandmother and you really can't control that. Other than obvious abusive behavior (which you will definitely know when you see it), there is a huge range of ways people interact with kids and even if it disagrees with your fundamental principles there's just nothing you can do about it.

But, like I said, if this person is a huge part of your kid's life and you feel that they are having a negative influence then you should definitely do something about it and look into alternative childcare.


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## kinkajoujou (Aug 21, 2011)

I sooo understand, I have to stay with the ILs for a while and my MIL does the same thing, asking DD the same question over and over again until the poor kid gives back the correct reply (DD is just starting to say words and reply when you ask her things) and what I also hate is when she parades the kid around her friends and asks her to perform tricks like a showdog. I do realize it's because she feels pride in the kid being so verbal so early, but still I don't like it.

I don't really have any words of advice here, though I think the best course of action would be to try to not make too big a show of what the kid is asked to perform, that might curb her enthusiasm a little. And for me, if you can afford/ choose to have someone else look after the child, prefereably a professional, that would be the best thing!


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## Midwesterner04 (Nov 19, 2009)

I can relate and think you are justified in standing your ground and seeking other care.

I have an in-law who is very aggressive in her attempts to get my 1 year-old DC to perform, usually some combination of words and gestures (for some reason she really, really wants DC to wave and say "bye-bye" when people arrive or when no one is going anywhere, among other things. DC says "hi" to greet people and says "bye" and waves when they leave; DC doesn't seem to understand why she is asked to say goodbye over and over and over again to people who are coming rather than going). This relative is also very into saying "good girl," but it is a question tied to the tricks--"are you a good girl? are you a good girl? then say 'bye-bye.'" This nearly-constant behavior flies in the face of so many things I believe about interacting with children and upsets my daughter, so my solution has been to limit contact in a delicate way.

I'd say to go with your gut--Mama instincts are rarely wrong!


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## pbjmama (Sep 20, 2007)

Based on the example you gave, I don't think it is a huge deal. Kids are trained to count, ABC's etc. I assume there is more to it and if it doesn't feel right to you then that is important. But I don't think you can avoid it all together and it will probably still happen to some degree in other childcare situations. The difference is that his grandma loves him!


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## holothuroidea (Mar 30, 2008)

Nobody is debating whether children are trained to do things (which they routinely are), or even whether it's possible (which it is), the question is whether it is right. Once you answer that, the question then becomes, "How can I protect my children from this?" I think the answer is that sometimes you can't but when you can, you should.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pbjmama*
> 
> Based on the example you gave, I don't think it is a huge deal. *Kids are trained to count, ABC's etc.* I assume there is more to it and if it doesn't feel right to you then that is important. But I don't think you can avoid it all together and it will probably still happen to some degree in other childcare situations. The difference is that his grandma loves him!


Also, for the record, my 3 year old knows how to count and her ABC's and nobody trained her to do it. She picked it up from watching me count and watching me write/read. She's not a genius, either, just a normal kid doing what normal kids do - learning.


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## pbjmama (Sep 20, 2007)

Okay, let me say it a different way. I don't think training a child to do something is wrong. Especially when it is done with good intentions and love. I don't want my child to be pressured to perform certain tasks but in OPs case it seems like the first example the grandmother wants to the baby to repeat a natural skill because she is proud. The second example is a pretty routine game that people play with children - and children enjoy it too. As I understand OP is trying to strike a balance - I'm guessing childcare is free and there are no other children in the home. Financial and health benefits there as well as all major requests honored by the ex-MIL. In my opinion this would not be a deal breaker.

holothuridea, I think your situation is different as you describe your MIL as overbearing. That is unfortunate.


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## holothuroidea (Mar 30, 2008)

We are in disagreement. For me, it's an issue of personal rights. Once you give yourself the authority to train a child to do what you want, you violate their autonomy, even if you just want them to learn their ABC's. It's the difference between the child saying, "I want you to teach me X," and an adult saying, "I am going to teach you X." I understand that my views are pretty radical and I don't expect most people to have the same perspective. There are many ways adults have for relating to kids and if they are not abusive then there is nothing anyone can do about it. It is important and inevitable for children to be exposed to a wide range of treatment. However, as a parent you need to do what you believe in your heart to be the right thing and when you choose alloparents, or other caregivers, their ideas should be pretty much on the same page, I think.

ETA: This is easy for me to say because I stay at home and have never had to choose a care provider. I understand that there are many more issues to take into account and like you said, this may not be a deal breaker in the grand scheme of things.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pbjmama*
> 
> Okay, let me say it a different way. *I don't think training a child to do something is wrong.* Especially when it is done with good intentions and love. I don't want my child to be pressured to perform certain tasks but in OPs case it seems like the first example the grandmother wants to the baby to repeat a natural skill because she is proud. The second example is a pretty routine game that people play with children - and children enjoy it too. As I understand OP is trying to strike a balance - I'm guessing childcare is free and there are no other children in the home. Financial and health benefits there as well as all major requests honored by the ex-MIL. In my opinion this would not be a deal breaker.
> 
> holothuridea, I think your situation is different as you describe your MIL as overbearing. That is unfortunate.


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## tooraloora (Oct 15, 2010)

I play that game with my DS frequently. He enjoys it. I don't pressure, but there is a good bit of repetition. At this age (13 months), he likes repetition. When he's no longer enjoying the game, we move on, though. I don't really see it as training him to do a trick. It's just a simple game he enjoys. If she quits when he's clearly done, I'd just see it as her playing a fun game with her grand baby. Was your ex-MIL actually pressing him to continue past the point of him losing interest? In that case, I'd see a problem. As for how to deal with it, I won't pretend to know what the best method would be, but what I'd probably do is sit down with her, mention some of the things she does with him that are really great, gently inform her that I really prefer not to push DS into activities/games/tricks instead letting him lead the play, and then praise the great things she does again. I've noticed sandwiching criticism between compliments can sometimes make the criticism a little easier to take.


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## lovepickles (Nov 16, 2010)

There is a fine line. I've banned "good" and "bad" from the house and it works great. When people are overly "encouraging" I ask them to allow her to discover it on her own. Excessive praise that seeks to control makes me sick. I heard one older girl playing with a group and she kept saying "good climbing" etc. Constant evaluation is no way to live.


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## McGucks (Nov 27, 2010)

It would absolutely annoy me. I know this because MIL does the same game and it really annoys me. She did the "so big" game with him when he was born in the hospital. It didn't work then and it doesn't work now (DS2 is 17 months). I attribute it to her lack of knowing what to do and how to interact.

I find that how I feel about a person frequently impacts how much what they do with or near my child annoys me. Some of my buddies might say or do something that doesn't bother me--but if another person that I didn't like so well did it? Not so much.

Good luck with deciding about childcare. An ex-MIL would have to be pretty excellent for me to feel like putting up with, but sometimes finances reign.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Honestly, it sounds like she's just trying to play a game with him. Unless it's upsetting to him, I don't get why it's upsetting to you.


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## pbjmama (Sep 20, 2007)

I'm fine with disagreeing but I find myself wondering if you have/plan to potty train, train your child not to throw food on the floor, etc. Do you intend for your child to leave your home for school? I'm just not sure how that would play out longer term? Of course this is probably the first time I've considered the possibility of absolutely no training. Perhaps our definitions of the term training are different. I'm thinking of it as teaching a skill set, could be physical - like getting dressed independently, social - please and thank you, educational - 2+2=4, phonetics. As a parent I often identify skills that would be helpful to my children and teach them things.

If you are willing to discuss this perhaps we can start another thread.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *holothuroidea*
> 
> We are in disagreement. For me, it's an issue of personal rights. Once you give yourself the authority to train a child to do what you want, you violate their autonomy, even if you just want them to learn their ABC's. It's the difference between the child saying, "I want you to teach me X," and an adult saying, "I am going to teach you X." I understand that my views are pretty radical and I don't expect most people to have the same perspective. There are many ways adults have for relating to kids and if they are not abusive then there is nothing anyone can do about it. It is important and inevitable for children to be exposed to a wide range of treatment. However, as a parent you need to do what you believe in your heart to be the right thing and when you choose alloparents, or other caregivers, their ideas should be pretty much on the same page, I think.
> 
> ETA: This is easy for me to say because I stay at home and have never had to choose a care provider. I understand that there are many more issues to take into account and like you said, this may not be a deal breaker in the grand scheme of things.


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## ellemenope (Jul 11, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eclipse*
> 
> Honestly, it sounds like she's just trying to play a game with him. Unless it's upsetting to him, I don't get why it's upsetting to you.


Yeah, I agree. It is a sweet game played over and over. If he isn't protesting how can you assume he is not a willing partner in this game?

I don't think it is ever healthy to adhere so strictly to a pedagogical dogma. I have read a bit about this parenting philosophy. At the core it rings true with me, and I have kept it close to my heart. But, practically speaking, it is just not enough for me. Babies desire interaction. They are social little beings. At this age social interaction is almost everything in learning. If nothing else I would certainly cut his grandma some slack.


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## ContentMama (Oct 13, 2010)

She definitely has alot of great qualities too. Ds has a healthy attachment to her and yes, we don't pay. On top of that the ex would have a big problem if he had to pay someone else when his mother was available and quite eager. We are friends though it's such a fine line to offer up criticism.

Quote:


> It's the difference between the child saying, "I want you to teach me X," and an adult saying, "I am going to teach you X." I understand that my views are pretty radical and I don't expect most people to have the same perspective. There are many ways adults have for relating to kids and if they are not abusive then there is nothing anyone can do about it.


I pretty much have the same perspective.

Quote:


> Was your ex-MIL actually pressing him to continue past the point of him losing interest?


He was trying to do his own thing and she continued to try and get his attention. Clearly he wanted to do something else and the "game" kept happening.

Quote:


> Unless it's upsetting to him, I don't get why it's upsetting to you.


From what I could hear, he was getting irritated, making "eh" noises and such.

What irritates me about it is that she does it because she thinks it's "cute". So it's for her enjoyment and it's distracting ds from doing what he would like to do. I totally get people do it all the time, I see people do it all the time and I think fundamentally it's a subversively controlling way to interact with a child. Instead of them being who they are and us discovering that, folks influence them to do what they want them to do and teach them to respond in certain ways.

Quote:


> She picked it up from watching me count and watching me write/read. She's not a genius, either, just a normal kid doing what normal kids do - learning.


Absolutely- it's really neat to see how ds mimics me with no prompting on my part. For example, wiping the table! He grabbed the rag and was wiping things off with it. Haha. Oh and using the keys near the door. Children are totally equipped to learn and it's innate. The best teacher is example.


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## ContentMama (Oct 13, 2010)

Quote:


> Babies desire interaction. They are social little beings. At this age social interaction is almost everything in learning. If nothing else I would certainly cut his grandma some slack.


Totally. The social interaction just doesn't have to be led by the adult. Ds lets me know when he wants to interact and we certainly do. He'll come over and get close and we'll hug or play.

I think the perspective difference is either 1) everything is already within or 2) everything needs to be taught.

And yeah, like I initially said this post is half vent half feedback. I'm not trying to put her down or bash her.


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## colobus237 (Feb 2, 2004)

Babies love "so big" and peekaboo and other repetitive, predictable games. It helps them learn about reciprocal interaction. It is textbook child development, perfectly loving and caring and fun. You are too much in your head over this. Relax.


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## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ccohenou*
> 
> Babies love "so big" and peekaboo and other repetitive, predictable games. It helps them learn about reciprocal interaction. It is textbook child development, perfectly loving and caring and fun. You are too much in your head over this. Relax.












It's not hurting him and he sounds like he's having fun so I'd roll with it. My kids love doing so big, my toddler was the one who taught it to her little sister.


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## holothuroidea (Mar 30, 2008)

I got the impression in the OP that the baby was not really into the game but grandma was imposing on him to play it. There are ways that babies protest besides outright crying.

Out of curiosity, what pedagogical dogma/parenting philosophy are you referring to? If there's one that says that we shouldn't interact with our babies then I am totally not into it! If you are talking about UP and think that children should be praised, if empty praise is the only way we have of interacting with our children then we really need more tools in our toolbox, don't you think?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ellemenope*
> 
> Yeah, I agree. It is a sweet game played over and over. If he isn't protesting how can you assume he is not a willing partner in this game?
> 
> I don't think it is ever healthy to adhere so strictly to a pedagogical dogma. I have read a bit about this parenting philosophy. At the core it rings true with me, and I have kept it close to my heart. But, practically speaking, it is just not enough for me. Babies desire interaction. They are social little beings. At this age social interaction is almost everything in learning. If nothing else I would certainly cut his grandma some slack.


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## moderatemom (Aug 16, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Honey693*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, I remember playing it with my baby sister when I was 5...I was tickled because it made her laugh. Relax, OP! You and your baby are so lucky to have a grandma to watch him, I wouldn't make other arrangements over this kind of thing.


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## colsxjack (Dec 9, 2009)

Maybe you could let her know what his signs are for moving on and not wanting to participate in an activity any longer. And.or show her other things that your son enjoys doing and playing that will also be fun for her. That may at least give her more fun and show her that the one game isn;t all he van do and also help her to read his cues. Some people are not great at reading childrens cues, Hopefully she will then play a wider variety of games with him and allow him the opportunity to express his "skills" more,


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## treeoflife3 (Nov 14, 2008)

If the baby pays attention and cooperates when you try to teach them something, it means they want to learn it. You aren't stealing their autonomy by teaching them something they didn't ask to be taught.

What the heck kind of baby is there that could even say 'hey, I hear there is this 'so big' game where you ask how big I am and I raise my arms and then you squeal SOOO BIIIIIG like an idiot... I want to learn that and play it!'

believe it or not.. babies can't tell you what they want to learn. You just teach them things til they stop paying attention.


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## holothuroidea (Mar 30, 2008)

Again, I don't expect a lot of people to agree with me, but I don't expect this level of venom, either! Sheesh!

You clearly don't understand. I don't know why you are defensive.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *treeoflife3*
> 
> If the baby pays attention and cooperates when you try to teach them something, it means they want to learn it. You aren't stealing their autonomy by teaching them something they didn't ask to be taught.
> 
> ...


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

Grandma is providing free childcare and you are kvetching over "so big," a game gazillions of happy babies have played with parents and grandparents. I don't get it.


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## marinak1977 (Feb 24, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *treeoflife3*
> 
> If the baby pays attention and cooperates when you try to teach them something, it means they want to learn it. You aren't stealing their autonomy by teaching them something they didn't ask to be taught.
> 
> ...











I do not read this post as defensive at all. in fact PP you sound very defensive yourself. Not every adult initiated interaction is detrimental to a toddler. I'm sorry that your MIL is overbearing, but I don't see the same situation happening in the OP. Just sounds like an excited grandma that is proud of her grandson.
My DS is very very good at limiting games and interactions to the ones he wants. Unless you were to physically restrain him you couldn't force him to "learn" anything he didn't want. He would just ignore you no matter how loud you got.

OP, I find that for some reason witnessing the interactions between my MIL and DS makes me irritated too (I have to stifle the need to micromanage and keep the "you're doing it wrong" comments inside). I'd limit my fights to the big things, but otherwise, try to find a place out of earshot to work. This way you won't feel compelled to fix things. They will find their own balance. If your toddler is anything like my toddler and your MIL is not an evil authoritarian, he will soon put her in her place himself.
Good luck!


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *holothuroidea*
> 
> Again, I don't expect a lot of people to agree with me, but I don't expect this level of venom, either! Sheesh!
> 
> You clearly don't understand. I don't know why you are defensive.


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## P.J. (May 18, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *eclipse*
> 
> Honestly, it sounds like she's just trying to play a game with him. Unless it's upsetting to him, I don't get why it's upsetting to you.


^^This^^ was my thought.

I agree with a lot of what has been said here. I would not tolerate, for example, anyone telling my boy it's "wrong" to let a dinosaur eat a tree, or using excessive praise like some have described. People always try to get him to wave bye bye, and he often doesn't and DH and I just say "oh well, he doesn't want to" and people just let it go at that.

But the OP's original situation described sounds pretty harmless to me. My MIL does this too and DS plays along and it's *fun*. She does not pressure him and if he doesn't do it she lets it go. So, it's fine by me. I would say, OP, if your ex-MIL is pressuring him or pushing him when he doesn't comply....then maybe step in and say "I know how fun it is when he does it, but I think it's better to just let it go if he isn't into it right now". Otherwise, it gives her joy and I just can't see the harm in it (IF she's not pressuring him and IF he happily does it), so why interfere?


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Learn to play with your kid? Seriously!! There are many baby books that teach you games for your toddlers. This is one of them!! I actually had several books with titles Games to Play wit Baby - because my parents never interacted with me this way. I had to learn from books how to interact with my kids.

It is right up there with playing peek a boo, this little piggy, making animal sounds, patty cake, or itsy bitsy spider.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

I think it may help, like a PP said, to kind of show or explain your toddler's signs of being "done" with something to your MIL (mine doesn't get it either, and if you don't stop pretty early, DS gets really frustrated and then no one is happy!) - for example my MIL is a huge kisser/snuggler, sometimes DS tolerates this very well, others he is squirming to get down and away. I have to say (like it's not obvious) - that "hey, let him down to play, he doesn't want snuggles right now" - DS isn't playing with you, he honestly doesn't want kisses/snuggles right now. same with tickling (which is more of a FIL thing, but he reads DS's cues a lot better than MIL)

as far as tricks and games - so long as they aren't pushed/forced I have no problem with them. We really haven't done "so big!" but we do pat-a-cake and itsy-bitsy spider, sometimes DS will play along, others not. I try to encourage - but not force - greeting and waving good-bye, and we've started on "please" I think most of everyone here is on the same page regarding the "good" and "bad". I'll admit, we do say "good job!" sometimes, because I want to focus on the behavior.

I think as long as your MIL is on the same page as you with the BIG stuff, let the little stuff slide. We live with the IL's at the moment, and I bite my tongue alot. I hate the phrase "he has to learn . . ." - like sitting in a high chair vs. a lap, or having some one else do bed time, or sitting in a cart at the store . . .anyway, I digress.


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## treeoflife3 (Nov 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *holothuroidea*
> 
> Again, I don't expect a lot of people to agree with me, but I don't expect this level of venom, either! Sheesh!
> 
> You clearly don't understand. I don't know why you are defensive.


I'm not being defensive at all. And no, I don't understand. I would kill for free childcare and you'd get rid of it over a game every single person has ever played with their babies... except you apparently... because it takes away his autonomy? Just tell her what his signs for being done are if he isn't loud and pushy about it and then be thankful she loves him enough to even interact with him. Of all the awful things she could be doing that would give reason to end FREE CHILDCARE, this is definitely not one of them. I could understand if she refuses to do anything besides sit him front of the tv... but she actually wants to play with him. I can't even imagine telling someone 'hey, I know you play with my kid but I'm going to have to fire you even though I don't even have to pay you because you just don't do it correctly.' This isn't a get rid of a FANTASTIC opportunity you have type of deal. You just need to talk to her and explain that she needs to stop if he is showing certain signs.


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## greenmulberry (Jan 11, 2009)

I think it sounds sweet that Grandma is enjoying playing with him, babies love the so big game. If you are looking for alternate childcare over this, you are going to have a very hard time finding a situation where the care providers don't play these traditional baby games.


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## ContentMama (Oct 13, 2010)

I'm mostly going to relax about this and focus on all the positives, and I love the idea of being out of earshot. Of course there is more to the story than this (isn't there always?) but I'll leave it at that for now.

Also, to note, just because something is "the norm" doesn't mean it's "harmless, ok, no big deal, etc". That's the sense I'm getting from many of your replies. If anything I ask WHY is this the norm? What is behind it? What is the core to it? Often it is based in fear as that's how our world runs and the training passes down the generation line. Maybe MIL is scared that if ds doesn't do such and such that he's "not normal" or falling behind or..or..or..

Or it could be that she is just relating to him the way she knows how and both enjoy the exchange. I'll leave it go for now and intervene if necessary.

Quote:


> Of all the awful things she could be doing that would give reason to end FREE CHILDCARE, this is definitely not one of them. I could understand if she refuses to do anything besides sit him front of the tv... but she actually wants to play with him. I can't even imagine telling someone 'hey, I know you play with my kid but I'm going to have to fire you even though I don't even have to pay you because you just don't do it correctly.' This isn't a get rid of a FANTASTIC opportunity you have type of deal. You just need to talk to her and explain that she needs to stop if he is showing certain signs.


I can respect where you are coming from: it's free. I don't have alot of money, but if it came down to it I would pay to feel like my son was being respected. Or I would do childcare swapping or figure something else out. This isn't clothing or toy choices, this is part of his foundation for his entire life.


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## ContentMama (Oct 13, 2010)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *holothuroidea*
> 
> Again, I don't expect a lot of people to agree with me, but I don't expect this level of venom, either! Sheesh!
> 
> ...


Oh and I am the original poster--- I'm not sure who you are directing this post to. Anytime I see all caps I think 'defensive'.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

As far as the games go, there is a point to it - interaction for one - I'm sure there are other more complex ones. and I don't see anything wrong with adult directed play - to a point. If you just handed my son a bunch of blocks a few months ago, he's look at them and go play with something else, he'd have no clue what to do with them. But my mom sits and builds things with him, and he "gets" that you are supposed to build with them. sometimes he just wants to tear them down, or toss them back in their container, and all of those things are ok (and thankfully my mom doesn't seem to care what he does with them, so long as he's not throwing them at people or the dog).

As far as normal . . . I think there are some things that my DS doesn't do that it never occured to me to do with him, and when people try to do those things (can't think of any at the moment, preggo brain!) I just say we haven't done that. Take high 5's for instance - yes he does them now, but he hasn't always. and it's well within the realm of "normal" - why do people teach this "trick" - well, hand-eye coordination, a way of greeting someone that is a little less . . .touchy? than say a hug, just as a way of interacting with a toddler, as there is only so much you can do. I do think it's harmless so long as it isn't forced. What harm (speaking honestly, from a place of curiousity) do you think may come from it - this particular game, the "so big" or any of the things grandma does with your LO? Are there any positives to it? and which list is longer?

I have to do this a lot with my MIL because she drives me crazy. But generally, most of the things she does (the constant kissing, too sweet voice, etc) are truly harmful - they just bug me to pieces. There are better ways to interact with DS, and I try to encourage those, but honestly, there is only so much I can do.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I do think to some extent you're over thinking this, but on the other hand I do understand what you mean about your MIL pushing things when your ds isn't interested. But games like this aren't really training as much as just playing, and I'd relax about the games generally. If you see her pushing when he isn't interested, maybe say, "It looks like he isn't having fun with that anymore" or something. But I think this probably isn't as big an issue as it feels like to you. The big picture here is a grandma who loves her grandchild and is providing free loving childcare.


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## McGucks (Nov 27, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> I have to do this a lot with my MIL because she drives me crazy. But generally, most of the things she does (the constant kissing, too sweet voice, etc) are truly harmful - they just bug me to pieces. There are better ways to interact with DS, and I try to encourage those, but honestly, there is only so much I can do.


This needs to be my new mantra.


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## Owen'nZoe (Sep 7, 2005)

I have to agree with those who have said I'd let this go. Unless the baby is fussing or crying and she's still insisting on playing, it sounds like your baby is getting great one-on-one time with grandma, which is really so important. She sounds like a great care taker. I'm a working mom, too, and understand how hard it is to leave your child with someone who does things differently than you do, but really that's not going to harm your child.

And just an aside on the "So big" game...I was playing this with my youngest when he was still a baby. My MIL is from another country half way around the world. She was visiting us at the time, and started watching us play with interest. When we were done, she said she knew the game, and that she had played one like it with her kids when they were babies, and remembered her grandma playing with with babies when she was little. MIL speaks a different language, sings different songs and tells different stories to the kids, and plays different games with the babies - yet this silly little game crossed cultures for us. I thought that was really neat.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

I'm not following how this could possibly be a negative thing. He's not being coerced to do something awful, right? I mean, in the grande scheme of parenting, there will be much, much, much more pressing issues to be concerned about. If you send him to school, you will have a million and one things to object to if a grandparent asking how big he is and playing a fun childhood game that has been done for decades is something that bothers you.


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## McGucks (Nov 27, 2010)

Is the bigger issue here your feelings about the game and you ex-MIL's method of interacting with your child, or your own feelings about your ex-MIL? Just a thought.

I try really hard, when MIL gets on my nerves, to think about this: if a trusted friend did the exact same thing as she, would it still bother me? And I also try really hard to remember that, in general, tolerance is a virtue (of course, I am the same poster who has started many similar threads about my MIL!).

Next to lack of sleep, I have found IL relations to be one of the hardest thing about being a parent of a LO. I so envy women who love and enjoy hanging out with their MIL or SIL. I don't have a sister and my mom (who didn't speak to me for the last two decades of my life) is dead. I wish from the bottom of my heart that I could wake up tomorrow and be one of those women who says "Oh, my MIL is wonderful, I love her, she's like a second mother to me."


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## Adaline'sMama (Apr 16, 2010)

I guess I violate my kid's autonomy all the time. I teach her to repeat words, I teach her to put her toys away, I teach her to repond "woof woof" when I ask her "How does the doggy go" and "meow" when I ask her "How does the kitty go." There are a lot of things that she has learned on her own, but I think its fun to play games with your toddler. I think grandma is just excited to teach him something.


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## allisonrose (Oct 22, 2004)

A bit off topic but I knew a mom with a baby around one year old. I believe her MIL started teaching the baby "tricks" and she enforced them since she thought it was cute. The only trick I saw was she said "pretty eyes" to her daughter and the little girl would bat her eyes. It was very odd to me.

Perhaps you should try to gently ask the MIL to not do what it is that is bothering you if you think she would be receptive. Give her a chance to shift her attitude before looking for other childcare.

I could never have my MIL be a childcare provider: when my first son was an infant, she'd shake a rattle in front of him, he'd be looking in another direction, she'd be watching tv and I'd be gritting my teeth. (TV is an ongoing issue between myself and my hubby in fact.)


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## carmel23 (Jul 21, 2006)

watching people do this to kids makes my stomach hurt. I agree with the argument that it is a violation of there rights. Its objectifying, and denying that they have their own internal life.

Now we play a lot of games together, like row row row your boat, that have co-operative movements, words, etc. But there is no expectation for the child to perform--we are doing it together. If my little one wants to sing, great. If he doesn't want to play, that is fine, too. There is no *expectation*

I think it really depends on if MIL is playing or training... y/k?


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## ContentMama (Oct 13, 2010)

Quote:


> Now we play a lot of games together, like row row row your boat, that have co-operative movements, words, etc. But there is no expectation for the child to perform--we are doing it together. If my little one wants to sing, great. If he doesn't want to play, that is fine, too. There is no *expectation*
> 
> I think it really depends on if MIL is playing or training... y/k?


Yep- I think it's the expectation for performance that bothers me the most. I'm sure she was down there trying to record it on her phone. Definitely a performing vibe, that's why I just brush it off and don't give it energy when she tries to do it in front of me.

I play games with him- high five, patty cake, peek a boo, etc.- I just don't make a point to do it in front of others so they can praise and reinforce the "good" behavior. Then it becomes about that- the attention, the praise- rather than the game. And if he's not into it when I initiate, no biggie. He also initiates sometimes!


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## holothuroidea (Mar 30, 2008)

I think that all of the people who make the argument that it was "just a game" really didn't read the original post. There was clearly something about the MIL's behavior that was unnerving to the OP and that goes beyond just playing a game.

There have been a lot of reactions to my phrase, "violating their autonomy." I guess this is kind of a hot-button. I don't give myself ultimate authority over my kids. I take on the burden of responsibility for those things that they cannot and let them have responsibility for the things they can. When and how to play is one of those things they can control. A lot of parents don't think that way, that doesn't make them bad parents (or grandparents) but that's not going to change the way I feel about it. I was simply offering my unique perspective.

I don't think that my perspective is the only one or the "right" one, and I said that before, I don't really expect people to understand or agree with me. Really, we all love our kids and we are trying our best. But there has been some insinuation that, oh I must not play with my kids or that I don't know that babies can't talk. That is really an unnecessary and mean thing to say, and that's what I meant by the venom.


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## holothuroidea (Mar 30, 2008)

Not every baby likes every game. My babies loved to play airplane but that really scares some other babies. My first never really got peek-a-boo. I think the idea of me disappearing was upsetting for her so we just didn't play that game, we did airplanes instead or "spot the squirrel," a game we invented.

I think there is this idea, mostly among older generations, that if you don't "teach" or "train" kids to play then they wont be able to do it "properly." It's the same way with food, there's this fear that if you don't force them to eat exactly the right thing exactly the right way they will grow up scrawny and weak. I don't think people who see children this way intentionally violate their rights, they really think they are doing the best for them. Generally, you can't change people's minds about it either. It is part of their world-view. But from the child's point of view it can be very objectifying and hurtful.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *carmel23*
> 
> watching people do this to kids makes my stomach hurt. I agree with the argument that it is a violation of there rights. Its objectifying, and denying that they have their own internal life.
> 
> ...


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## holothuroidea (Mar 30, 2008)

But, if your baby didn't like one of those games you would just pick another one, right?

I will agree, however, that the kind of interaction the OP described is better than no interaction.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom*
> 
> Learn to play with your kid? Seriously!! There are many baby books that teach you games for your toddlers. This is one of them!! I actually had several books with titles Games to Play wit Baby - because my parents never interacted with me this way. I had to learn from books how to interact with my kids.
> 
> It is right up there with playing peek a boo, this little piggy, making animal sounds, patty cake, or itsy bitsy spider.


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## colsxjack (Dec 9, 2009)

Yeah, I wouldn't be into someone trying to train my kid (or any kid). Although, a previous poster gave me thought into how I should think of things that bother about my own IL's.ie: If they are doing something that annoy's me maybe I should think if it would annoy me if a friend was doing it. Because I probably am more defensive about things my IL's do.

BTW, I have never heard of this game before parenting websites that are American based. I am Canadian. It seems like a bit of a weird game. I am not sure how it is fun? I have never seen it played before, just heard a description.


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## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

OP, what does your husband say about this?


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

As far as the performance angle goes, I don't know many parents/grandparents that aren't excited about what their kids/grandkids can do - anything from milestones (crawling, walking, words) to games and songs. I would really only be concerned if she was being pushy and LO was becoming upset.

Heck, the other day my mother was trying her best to get DS to laugh so she could record it for a ringtone on her phone. I just kind of rolled my eyes, but DS does have an adorable laugh. again, no harm, no foul in my book.

I do agree with the generational "playing properly" thing - like coloring inside the lines - my MIL is probably more likely to encourage this than my mother, but she only had one child, and my mom not only had my sister and I, but was the neighborhood sitter for a long time - she just has more experience with kids in general. I don't know if it's the case with the OP's MIL, but that may also be an issue - I don't think my MIL really knows how to play with a toddler or baby, that's part of why she snuggles and kisses so much; she's got no idea what else to do with him. My FIL though LOVES to play with DS, and can for hours.

Maybe -if this is the case (perhaps the MIL remembers this game with her son as a baby, and doesn't remember what else she did with him? I know a lot of parents of that generation didn't interact a whole lot, I'm sure my mom stuck my sister and I in a playpen and we played by ourselves a lot at that age) - you can show her some things she can do with your LO - the kind of interaction - other than just supervised independent play - that you think is appropriate. Like coloring (DS loves to scribble on a big blank floor pad) or put on music and dance . . . . whatever sort of interaction you think might allow for a little more autonomy or whatever. Just a thought.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Just take a minute and imagine this situation, if you can-

Your sweet little baby boy, whom you love more than anything else, is gone. Poof! Gone. And now there's a fully grown adult man instead (whom you love, of course), but you do still miss that little baby and all the games you'd use to play together and all the snuggles you used to have. But...now he has a baby of his own! And you fully respect the right of that baby's parents to make their own decisions on how to raise him, but you're just thrilled to cuddle and snuggle and play with him too, and it eases a little of the heartache of missing your own little baby boy (the one who poof! is gone.)

And then someone tells you that you're not allowed to watch him anymore, because you're playing with him wrong.









You said (or implied) in your OP that you don't feel right completely directing all of their interactions together. I think that's wise. By all means, set rules about the big things. And certainly, discuss your general philosophy around autonomy, etc. But don't eliminate a situation in which your child is being cared for by someone who loves him, who doesn't require you to pay them, because they don't 100% agree with your idea of how people should engage with your baby. You're still his mother- the way you treat him matters the most. Exposure to different styles of interaction can actually be valuable, provided they're all loving.


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## *bejeweled* (Jul 16, 2003)

Yes! So beautifully said. None of us raise our DC perfectly. She is loving him.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *prothyraia*
> 
> Just take a minute and imagine this situation, if you can-
> 
> ...


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## anjsmama (Apr 6, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *prothyraia*
> 
> Just take a minute and imagine this situation, if you can-
> 
> ...










Strangely enough, this is sort of how I deal with my own mother. Her interactions sort of make me sick to my stomach (So big! Actually physically waving my babes hand and telling her to say bye bye, talking in that INSANELY sweet-high-tone voice, etc) - but I also know my mom is kind of a disaster. She's lived a hard life and I think forced interaction is the only type she can really "get", KWIM? I know she LOVES the kids, so so much, and they don't see her all that much (once a week or so) so when we're there, I just let her kind of do her thing. It's more about making HER day than anything else, and as my DS has gotten older he finds this sort of thing to be totally weird and funny. He will even say "Oh wow, Nana, that's silly!" when she plays these kind of games with my DD. Whatever - I let DD direct her play choices pretty much 24/7 - a few hours here and there with Nana, while pretty obnoxious, is good for both of them.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

wow this thread.

*prothyraia* that was a pretty good way to look at it in my opinion. however, i agree with holeotheridea and the op. i think it's a generational thing, my mother had that expectation of dd. it made for a funny moment when my mother, who lives pretty close by but never visits dd, would try to engage her in the so big thing or some of the other stuff that people do. and dd didn't respond. and my mom was like... don't you teach her anything? and.... dd can do LOTS of stuff. stuff she figured out on her own, and stuff she obviously wanted me to show her. and she can and could at 18 mos. sight read (only 3 words really) a few things.

i think there's a conflict of understanding because there are mamas here who like the traditional things that people use and teach to interact with babies, like the so big. and anytime people suggest something that parents are doing could be wrong (not that that's what most of us are doing, we're just saying it isn't a fit with our philosophy/philosophies) people get extremely defensive.

we never taught dd that stuff because i do feel like it's teaching tricks. some babies need that for interaction, or like it. for us, we have tended to let dd take the lead, and she's been very good at communicating what she likes to do and learn. i think maybe all this is some of us have realized (sorry if i seem to be speaking for you and you disagree) at a VERY early age that we are "unschoolers." i really tend to identify with this and some of the more radical educational philosophies, and this kind of stance on things like the basic tricks seems to be the preliminary stage for this.

now, you can debate here on mdc all day about whether you "believe" in unschooling, etc. but as parents, we DO get to have some control over the kind of education our child receives. i think this is the crux of the thread arguing.

op, i hope the grandma is willing to listen to what you have to say about your educational philosophy. i cannot remember if it was you that posted about the "good girl!" thing or not, but if that were me i would just plain freak out. that is not ok for us. we don't genderfy our child, and we don't say good job, etc. because we are UP. but i would try to think about prythyria's post, and try to soften my immediate reactions by realizing that the child is loved, and that is important. but i understand the annoyance, and it's definitely worth addressing. would the grandma read UP do you think? that's a good one. eta: i looked and saw the good girl thing was holeotheridea. that phrase just makes me foam at the mouth, sorry. why not just use a clicker?


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## P.J. (May 18, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *anjsmama*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with this ~and the post you were agreeing with, hehe.

Holothuroidea, I have the same perspective as you about letting kids direct their own play, and their own lives to the extent they are able. So often people treat kids in a way they wouldn't dare treat an adult, and this is often a sign of disrespect IMO. However, in the OP's situation I just couldn't let myself get all upset about it. There are so many other things to worry about and draw limits over. As they say, you have to choose your battles. I just can't see a loving grandmother playing "so big" a couple days a week to be harmful. Sure, it could fall into the category of being patronizing or diminuitive if you analyze the situation deeply. But is that really going to cause the child to have psychological issues when he/she grows up....like it might if the parents were doing it all the time every day? And even if the parents play that game every day, if they are generally respectful of the child and his/her rights in most of their interactions, is it really so bad? IDK.

It reminds me: we were in an Indian restaurant recently and DS became fascinated by a couple Buddha statues. We said "That's Buddha" and he immediately picked up the word "Buddha". Since then he has noticed a little Buddha statue we have and sometimes goes to it and says "Buddha". I think this is just soooo cute and so sometimes I show him a picture of Buddha and go "Who's that?" just to hear him say it. I know, it's kinda dumb and objectifying him and his cuteness.....but I just don't see it as causing any harm to him or his developing psyche. In general we let him lead the way of his own life as much as possible and try hard to be respectful of his integrity. It sounds like the OP does too ~so again I just can't see a little bit of this kind of objectification to be harmful, especially when it's coming from a loving grandmother who provides childcare.


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## holothuroidea (Mar 30, 2008)

I very much agree that this level of grandma-interaction probably is not detrimental. As long as the child's primary caregivers are generally respectful, they can handle different kinds of treatment from others without any kind of damage and this is really just a normal part of life.

I would be more concerned if the MIL was a primary caregiver and provided full-time childcare, but they don't. A couple hours a week isn't going to do damage, especially when it's mixed with a whole lot of grandma-love. I think I must be repeating myself for the 5th time here, but as long as she is not abusive there's nothing you can really do about it and hey, that's life. I feel like my original message really got lost, a lot of posts were reactionary to my phrasing "violation of autonomy." We all can stand a little violation of our autonomy and frankly it's inevitable.

Thank you to the readers who got my message! And yes, every time my MIL says "GOOD GIRL!" I swear I nearly vomit on her. My DH did it a couple times but he learned his lesson pretty fast (I may have actually vomited on him, or cried, I can't remember).

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *P.J.*
> 
> I agree with this ~and the post you were agreeing with, hehe.
> 
> ...


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## Perdita_in_Ontario (Feb 7, 2007)

Quote:


> BTW, I have never heard of this game before parenting websites that are American based. I am Canadian. It seems like a bit of a weird game. I am not sure how it is fun? I have never seen it played before, just heard a description.


I'm Canadian too. My in-laws play this game with all the extended family's little ones. I had never heard of it before seeing them playing it, and we never taught it to DD. She looked at them like they were nuts when they asked her "how big is baby" (her expression was very funny).

We did teach it to DS though, kind of as a joke before a big family gathering. And know what? He adored it! He'd throw his hands up in the air and start laughing uproariously before we'd got past "how big..". We didn't "train" him to do it - we all did it and he joined in. If he hadn't have been interested, we would have stopped. It was fun in this house for a couple of months!

All that said, it has taken me 6 years to manage not to want to punch something when MIL is interacting with my kids. Rationally speaking, almost all of her interactions are benign (putting my 8-month-old on a chair and walking away was pretty dumb), and the children love her, but she annoys the heck out of me, simply because it's not "my way" (and sometimes, I admit, because she did it better!). I'm not sure I could stand either her or my mother being my child's routine care-giver because of this. Although free is usually a good thing, and they'd definitely love my kids more than a stranger!


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## Lisa85 (May 22, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *holothuroidea*
> 
> We are in disagreement. For me, it's an issue of personal rights. Once you give yourself the authority to train a child to do what you want, you violate their autonomy, even if you just want them to learn their ABC's. It's the difference between the child saying, "I want you to teach me X," and an adult saying, "I am going to teach you X." I understand that my views are pretty radical and I don't expect most people to have the same perspective. There are many ways adults have for relating to kids and if they are not abusive then there is nothing anyone can do about it. It is important and inevitable for children to be exposed to a wide range of treatment. However, as a parent you need to do what you believe in your heart to be the right thing and when you choose alloparents, or other caregivers, their ideas should be pretty much on the same page, I think.
> 
> ETA: This is easy for me to say because I stay at home and have never had to choose a care provider. I understand that there are many more issues to take into account and like you said, this may not be a deal breaker in the grand scheme of things.


Do you really only teach things to your kids that they initiate? There is a difference between "wanting to learn" and "initiating". Do you not read books to your kids until they express an interest in it? Do you not ever bring them to a park until they first ask for it? I'm really trying to understand this, and I just don't get it. Why does a child have to initiate all the learning? Adults are to never to say "hey, I thought this might be fun to do/learn about?" I'm also curious to know how you teach a 14 month old something they don't want to learn - how does that work exactly? 'Cause I'm trying to picture it, and I can't. Adding to that, if I was only taught things I initiated, I wouldn't know so, so many things I never knew I had an interest in. A friend recently did a soap making night with a bunch of mutual friends. It was really, really interesting, and a fun girls night. Never before had I thought I wanted to learn how's and why's of making soap but I'm glad I had the opportunity to learn. Was it wrong of her to ask me if I wanted to come, because I had never before said I wanted to?

----------------------

To the OP, I'm about to make a lot of assumptions. I assume your MIL is providing free childcare, this is your first child, your ds was not upset ("kind of saying 'ehh' a couple times does not count), and you have other issues with your MIL that are clouding your opinion/view. Here's the thing with free childcare. You really, really have to pick your battles. I can't even imagine how you could possibly bring this up to her without her feeling like she has to walk on egg shells when you're around. If it happens enough, your MIL is likely to give up and just say she can't do it anymore. Now, if your ds was upset or she kept redirecting him from something he clearly wanted in order to do So Big, then that's an issue. The issue then isn't playing the game, but annoying your ds for her personal benefit.

Also, here's the thing with other people with different personalities. They are going to interact differently with your ds than you will. It doesn't mean it's wrong, it doesn't even mean your right. Everyone interacts differently with children, everyone. Some like to play so big and teach tricks and some don't. The problem comes in when the child has had enough and the adult doesn't quit. Again, the root issue really has nothing to do with teaching tricks or not.


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## holothuroidea (Mar 30, 2008)

Babies initiate learning every second they are awake, they will learn everything they need to if you let them. There are times that you have to do things for them, because they are not able to think ahead. Like, you need to brush their teeth and dress them appropriate for the weather. I've said it a million times but I'll say it again, I can't always let them lead the way but when I can, I will. Learning and games are one thing they definitely can have responsibility for. I've found that if I follow all my children's cues consistently I never have time to play anything else. Children are constantly, "lets do this! what is that? where is this? can I do that? can you do that? why not?" etc. Even tiny babies will draw your attention with a coo, pat your face if they want to play tickles, pick up a blanket and peek a boo when they want.

Anyway, that soap making thing is a terrible example, because once you heard of it you obviously were interested otherwise you wouldn't go, I mean nobody is going to pick your clothes out, strap you into a car seat against your will, and drive you to a place you've never been before. I will assume that your friend didn't coerce you into going by saying things like, "Don't you want to be a big girl?" And I'm guessing when you made your soap your friend didn't say to you, "You are such a Good Girl!"

I also resent that you think "kind of saying ehhh" a couple times doesn't count. If I came up to you and said, "Hey, put your arms in the air because it makes me laugh," and you said "ehhh" it's alright if I just ignore that. Then, when you say "ehhh" again and walk away it's alright if I chase you down and tell you to do it again?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lisa85*
> 
> Do you really only teach things to your kids that they initiate? There is a difference between "wanting to learn" and "initiating". Do you not read books to your kids until they express an interest in it? Do you not ever bring them to a park until they first ask for it? I'm really trying to understand this, and I just don't get it. Why does a child have to initiate all the learning? Adults are to never to say "hey, I thought this might be fun to do/learn about?" I'm also curious to know how you teach a 14 month old something they don't want to learn - how does that work exactly? 'Cause I'm trying to picture it, and I can't. Adding to that, if I was only taught things I initiated, I wouldn't know so, so many things I never knew I had an interest in. A friend recently did a soap making night with a bunch of mutual friends. It was really, really interesting, and a fun girls night. Never before had I thought I wanted to learn how's and why's of making soap but I'm glad I had the opportunity to learn. Was it wrong of her to ask me if I wanted to come, because I had never before said I wanted to?
> 
> ...


ETA: I completely agree with the bolded statement.


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *holothuroidea*
> 
> Again, I don't expect a lot of people to agree with me, but I don't expect this level of venom, either! Sheesh!
> 
> You clearly don't understand. I don't know why you are defensive.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *holothuroidea*
> 
> I think that all of the people who make the argument that it was "just a game" really didn't read the original post. There was clearly something about the MIL's behavior that was unnerving to the OP and that goes beyond just playing a game.
> 
> ...


I don't see how the comments have been venomous or defensive, though. To me, an attitude of "my philosophy is soooo radical that I don't expect anyone to be able to understand it" (which you've sort of said a few times now) is the very definition of being defensive.

Personally, I would love to understand where you're coming from, but I just can't so far. It still seems like you're saying that an adult initiating play with a small child is inherently, and harmfully, coercive. No? And who here really believes that "empty praise is the only way we have of interacting with our children"?

If the child clearly doesn't like a game and the adult keeps it up for their own enjoyment, then yeah....that's a whole 'nother issue, I think. But thinking that the stuff your kid does is cute? Even things that have been initiated by an adult? How is that not natural? I don't think babies would *be* so cute as they grow and learn if it wasn't natural for their caretakers to have a reaction to how cute they are. IMO, it's part of the survival of the species and all.


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## nstewart (Nov 6, 2010)

I think I understand what holothuroieda is getting at...Correct me if I am wrong holothuroieda, but I don't think you are against teaching per se (because no matter what we do we are teaching our children by example at the very least), you just feel it should be initiated by your child? You don't expect your child to figure everything out for themselves, but want them to have the opportunity to do so? I also do agree generally with trying to respect our children's autonomy. This is why we EC and did/do BLW. I do not think that we can flawlessly do this, however. For example, if DS is in need of a bath, he gets one even if he would prefer not to bath. If he is obviously tired but doesn't want to nap, I try to get him calm and relaxed and to sleep anyway. I do think (as is the case with so many things) that this philosophy taken to the extreme could have negative consequences. For example, what about teaching your child about dangers (ex. stranger danger to an older toddler, or what things are HOT, or how to safely go down stairs...)? Would you expect this to be somehow initiated by the child as well? If so, a person could be too late to teach the lesson. Also, what about essentials, like reading? If you have a child who hates to read and only wants to draw, will you respect their desire not to read and just hope they come around? This seems unfair to the child. I generally agree with what you are getting at, but do think that as parents we need to use our experience in some situations to guide our children's choices for their own well being.

Also, I am curious about the parents who don't use the word "good". Does this mean you are against praising a child for accomplishments generally? Or is this more to do with categorizing behaviours as "good" or "bad"? If DS accomplishes a new skill that he is proud of, I do praise him ("Yayyyy DS!") because I am proud of him and he is proud of himself. But I do also agree with not praising everything he does (I don't want him doing things in order to be praised and for example there is no praise when he uses the potty and no dissapointment expressed when he uses his diaper instead). I am just curious about this perspective and would like to learn more about it if you could guide me in the right direction.

OP, I agree with PPs about guiding your MIL in terms of play with your son. You are pretty fortunate to have a MIL who wants to and is capable of being so involved in DSs life, and it sounds to me like she means well she just needs some guidance. I wish that my MIL or my mom could be my DSs caretaker as he loves them both so much and is so loved by them! Honestly, my MIL would do things very differently than me, some of which would likely drive me a bit crazy. But I still think that if you focus on the bigger picture as opposed to the individual behaviours you can find a balance with the MIL.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nstewart*
> 
> Also, I am curious about the parents who don't use the word "good". Does this mean you are against praising a child for accomplishments generally? Or is this more to do with categorizing behaviours as "good" or "bad"? If DS accomplishes a new skill that he is proud of, I do praise him ("Yayyyy DS!") because I am proud of him and he is proud of himself. But I do also agree with not praising everything he does (I don't want him doing things in order to be praised and for example there is no praise when he uses the potty and no dissapointment expressed when he uses his diaper instead). I am just curious about this perspective and would like to learn more about it if you could guide me in the right direction.


can't speak for other folks on this one, but we try to avoid praise most of the time. we try to do UP, which kind of explains how praise can have negative effects. i personally have a big issue with "good" and "bad" because i think philosophically to label some act as "good" can be confusing to a child and he or she could construe this as he or she is only "good" when displaying behaviors that parents approve of. I know alfie kohen's not for everybody but if you see people who try to UP, and are curious about why some people are hesitant to say good job and use rewards, this is a pretty good article.

actually now that i am re-reading that article, i think it is absolutely perfect in the context of this whole thread. it illustrates the approach some of us are taking, i think.

and.. i think that the thinking by the folks who don't like the "tricks" is that yes, it's necessary to teach things like "hot," etc. but that, like i said in an earlier post, it's just a whole way of viewing education. i think it's a prelude to unschooling or an early stage of that. unschooling doesn't (to me) mean you don't teach stuff to your kids, it means that you don't maniuplate, cajole, coerce, or reward your kid for behaving the way you want and that you follow cues.


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## holothuroidea (Mar 30, 2008)

Coffeegirl: Well I think it's fairly clear that my views are pretty radical, and I have been disagreed with a lot on here. It was what I expected, but maybe that's just better left unsaid.

As far as saying that post wasn't venomous, if you think insinuating that I don't play with my kids and that I don't know babies can't talk is a perfectly friendly thing to do then I don't think I want to have a conversation with you.

If you are really as interested in understanding me as you say you are then you probably would have read my posts better. I never said that initiating play with a child is harmfully coercive. I also said there are plenty of times you need to teach kids things they don't want to learn (brushing teeth, dressing appropriately, safety issues). Open your mind a little, go back and read my posts again and see if I am really that hard to understand.

You said, "If the child clearly doesn't like a game and the adult keeps it up for their own enjoyment, then yeah....that's a whole 'nother issue, I think." If you read the OP's posts carefully, you would see that this is the case. The child didn't want to play the game and the adult kept trying to get him to play.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ContentMama*
> 
> He was trying to do his own thing and she continued to try and get his attention. Clearly he wanted to do something else and the "game" kept happening.
> 
> ...


This is the kind of interaction we are talking about. I don't know how harmful it is, that depends on the child's view of the situation, but it is definitely disrespectful. This is a lot different than just introducing a game.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I agree that it would be irritating, but I think if you're wanting to control someone's interactions with your child to that extent, you need to give up the free childcare. Though I don't know if you'll find someone to watch your kids who won't interact with them like that, unless they don't interact with the child at all. In the whole scheme of things, I don't think this is as big a deal as getting free child care from a loving source. If it's that big a deal to the OP, she should prepare for not having free chlid care, because I don't know many grandmas who would continue giving free child care after being told they are playing with their grandchild wrong.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> I agree that it would be irritating, but I think if you're wanting to control someone's interactions with your child to that extent, you need to give up the free childcare. Though I don't know if you'll find someone to watch your kids who won't interact with them like that, unless they don't interact with the child at all. In the whole scheme of things, I don't think this is as big a deal as getting free child care from a loving source. If it's that big a deal to the OP, she should prepare for not having free chlid care, because I don't know many grandmas who would continue giving free child care after being told they are playing with their grandchild wrong.


i don't know, mamazee, i think it's pretty logical and within reasonable expectations to ask that grandmas, even those who provide free childcare, respect your ideology and educational ideas. if grandma cannot listen to what's asked, then that is a problem that has nothing to do with the situation we're discussing-- what if it were some other thing, AP, or cloth diapering, or feeding the kid vegetarian/health food?

to me it's an issue of respecting parenting styles, not just a "hey, grandma's not playing with the kid the right way." or at least it is if OP discusses her concerns and is ignored.


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## holothuroidea (Mar 30, 2008)

Part of respecting children is knowing the limits of their ability. My job as a parent is to take responsibility for things that they cannot, allow them the responsibility for things that they can, and to know the difference.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *nstewart*
> 
> I think I understand what holothuroieda is getting at...Correct me if I am wrong holothuroieda, but I don't think you are against teaching per se (because no matter what we do we are teaching our children by example at the very least), you just feel it should be initiated by your child? You don't expect your child to figure everything out for themselves, but want them to have the opportunity to do so? I also do agree generally with trying to respect our children's autonomy. This is why we EC and did/do BLW. I do not think that we can flawlessly do this, however. For example, if DS is in need of a bath, he gets one even if he would prefer not to bath. If he is obviously tired but doesn't want to nap, I try to get him calm and relaxed and to sleep anyway. *I do think (as is the case with so many things) that this philosophy taken to the extreme could have negative consequences. For example, what about teaching your child about dangers (ex. stranger danger to an older toddler, or what things are HOT, or how to safely go down stairs...)? Would you expect this to be somehow initiated by the child as well? If so, a person could be too late to teach the lesson. Also, what about essentials, like reading? If you have a child who hates to read and only wants to draw, will you respect their desire not to read and just hope they come around? This seems unfair to the child.* I generally agree with what you are getting at, but do think that as parents we need to use our experience in some situations to guide our children's choices for their own well being.
> 
> Also, I am curious about the parents who don't use the word "good". Does this mean you are against praising a child for accomplishments generally? Or is this more to do with categorizing behaviours as "good" or "bad"? If DS accomplishes a new skill that he is proud of, I do praise him ("Yayyyy DS!") because I am proud of him and he is proud of himself. But I do also agree with not praising everything he does (I don't want him doing things in order to be praised and for example there is no praise when he uses the potty and no dissapointment expressed when he uses his diaper instead). I am just curious about this perspective and would like to learn more about it if you could guide me in the right direction.


When it comes to praise, I believe in being genuine. A good barometer for whether or not praise is warranted is, would you say the same thing to an adult? For example, if DD brings me something she drew and she drew a new shape she's never been able to do before I will say, "Wow! You learned how to draw a square! Excellent!" It is normal to get excited over new milestones like that. I would do the same if my DH came home and said the new compound he was working on is going to be patented. It's an achievement and we all share in that joy.

What I am not going to do is praise my DH for something normal like doing the dishes, "Oh you did such a good job!" I will simply thank him for doing it because I appreciate it. The excessive praise is unwarranted and only serves to manipulate their feelings so they will do it again. It's the same with DD. I don't praise her for picking up the food she dropped, or playing nicely or getting a diaper for her sister, I just say thank you. Potty training is another animal. Along the same lines as dressing oneself and using a spoon, it's a personal achievement of independence. In situations like that I think it's best to ask the child how they feel about it.

If you are interested in learning more, the best information I've read on praise is in Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hildare*
> 
> i don't know, mamazee, i think it's pretty logical and within reasonable expectations to ask that grandmas, even those who provide free childcare, respect your ideology and educational ideas. if grandma cannot listen to what's asked, then that is a problem that has nothing to do with the situation we're discussing-- what if it were some other thing, AP, or cloth diapering, or feeding the kid vegetarian/health food?
> 
> to me it's an issue of respecting parenting styles, not just a "hey, grandma's not playing with the kid the right way." or at least it is if OP discusses her concerns and is ignored.


I do think it's a judgment call as to what is a big enough deal, but if I were getting free childcare and needed childcare, I wouldn't complain if the grandparent refused to use CDs. I would expect healthy food, "So Big" wouldn't be on my list at all. You have the right to manage care, but IMO not micromanage, and the line between that is indeed subjective. My guess is most people, and I bet this grandmother, would put playing "So big" in the "micromanage" category.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I want to give an example specifically about me and my kids. I follow the whole UP thing myself. I don't punish, I don't do behavioral praise at all, etc. Then I wanted to put my older dd in a preschool, and they all use tons of that kind of praise, and they all do time outs. Every single one. My dd is in regular public school now, and they also do praise and time outs. The fact is that when my dd is not within my care, she is not within my complete control. When she is in school, she could get a time out and she knows that doesn't happen at home. IMO what happens somewhere else by other people is not nearly as important as what happens with the child's parents. We are their primary source of love, safety, and our home is where they get their primary sense of who they are. My dd is 9 now and has no expectation of praise, despite receiving it at school. I think she only actually got time out once ever at school, but it has happened and she knows it is a fact of life there. She is not traumatized by that. She is very self confident and joyful. It was hard to understand that I would not have complete control over her, but not only do I think it hasn't hurt her, but I think it's been good for her to deal with other people who do things differently. None of us will have complete control over our kids, and I don't think it's really in their best interest to try. I think we do more potential damage (like with their relationship with their grandmother in this specific situation) than we would give benefit from control over those issues, and it's an illusion of control rather than real control IMO anyway.


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## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> I want to give an example specifically about me and my kids. I follow the whole UP thing myself. I don't punish, I don't do behavioral praise at all, etc. Then I wanted to put my older dd in a preschool, and they all use tons of that kind of praise, and they all do time outs. Every single one. My dd is in regular public school now, and they also do praise and time outs. The fact is that when my dd is not within my care, she is not within my complete control. When she is in school, she could get a time out and she knows that doesn't happen at home. IMO what happens somewhere else by other people is not nearly as important as what happens with the child's parents. We are their primary source of love, safety, and our home is where they get their primary sense of who they are. My dd is 9 now and has no expectation of praise, despite receiving it at home. I think she only actually got time out once ever at school, but it has happened and she knows it is a fact of life there. She is not traumatized by that. She is very self confident and joyful. *It was hard to understand that I would not have complete control over her, but not only do I think it hasn't hurt her, but I think it's been good for her to deal with other people who do things differently. None of us will have complete control over our kids, and I don't think it's really in their best interest to try.* I think we do more potential damage (like with their relationship with their grandmother in this specific situation) than we would give benefit from control over those issues, and it's an illusion of control rather than real control IMO anyway.


I especially agree with this. The idea of "not wanting to teach my kid tricks" resonates with me as a parent, but I see no disconnect between embracing that as my parenting choice and allowing others to interact with my kid in a different way. I think children can understand at a very early age that interactions and behavior can and do vary from one relationship to the next and from one situation to the next.


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## Lisa85 (May 22, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *holothuroidea*
> 
> Babies initiate learning every second they are awake, they will learn everything they need to if you let them. There are times that you have to do things for them, because they are not able to think ahead. Like, you need to brush their teeth and dress them appropriate for the weather. I've said it a million times but I'll say it again, I can't always let them lead the way but when I can, I will. Learning and games are one thing they definitely can have responsibility for. I've found that if I follow all my children's cues consistently I never have time to play anything else. Children are constantly, "lets do this! what is that? where is this? can I do that? can you do that? why not?" etc. Even tiny babies will draw your attention with a coo, pat your face if they want to play tickles, pick up a blanket and peek a boo when they want.
> 
> ...


Of course my friend didn't coerce me into coming. I also fail to see where the OP's son was coerced. If that's the issue, then that's the issue - not teaching tricks. That's what I'm trying to get at. Of course she didn't say "Good girl!" but again, not getting the connection as to what that has to do with teaching tricks, that can happen in any situation and grandparents are notorious for it.

The reason I said "kinda saying ehh" doesn't count" is because the way the OP worded it. I'd have to go back and read the exact quote and context, but I got from it that she didn't really know what was going on and he was "kind of" saying "ehh". My kids as toddlers said "eh" a lot. Sometimes it meant something and sometimes they were just making vocalizations.


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *holothuroidea*
> 
> Coffeegirl: Well I think it's fairly clear that my views are pretty radical, and I have been disagreed with a lot on here. It was what I expected, but maybe that's just better left unsaid.
> 
> ...


I did actually read all of your posts and the OP's posts. Please don't assume that I didn't. (And way to avoid my actual questions!







) To try and be fair, I did go back and re-read your posts, again. I still don't understand the problem. And you views? They aren't that radical. Not here.


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## holothuroidea (Mar 30, 2008)

I'm not avoiding your questions. I simply refuse to repeat myself again. If you don't understand, I can't make you. I'm not in a position too, I'm not a child development educator, just someone with an opinion. If you've got something legitimate to say to me please PM me, this thread's been hijacked enough.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coffeegirl*
> 
> I did actually read all of your posts and the OP's posts. Please don't assume that I didn't. (And way to avoid my actual questions!
> 
> ...


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *holothuroidea*
> 
> I'm not avoiding your questions. I simply refuse to repeat myself again. If you don't understand, I can't make you. I'm not in a position too, I'm not a child development educator, just someone with an opinion. If you've got something legitimate to say to me please PM me, this thread's been hijacked enough.


I think that what you describe in your first post here and what the OP was describing are two different issues, and that might be part of what has led so some misunderstandings here. I asked you a couple of "legitimate" questions two posts ago....you've responded twice and still haven't answered them, insisting that you've already cleared it all up earlier in the thread. Why would I PM you to ask a third time? I'm sorry that you don't find my questions legitimate.


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *prothyraia*
> 
> Just take a minute and imagine this situation, if you can-
> 
> ...


Good post.

So for the OP, it's the expectation of performance that bothers her. All children are probably not JUST like mine, but I know that mine does love to...."perform", for lack of a better word. Or, show off. When she learns something new, like standing without support, or walking, or clapping her hands, she just wants to do it all the time and she sometimes will get us at a good time where we're all in the living room or something, watching her. She seizes her moment, gets right up in front of us, and goes through one "trick" after another. It pleases her little heart so much. Now you could say, she only does that because we've reacted with praise or "aww, look at that!....*hugs*" when she first started doing these things, and you might be right. I've seen that kind of interaction, in small degrees, with pretty much every baby and mother I've known. What I am missing is how that can possibly equal objectifying the child, or denying their autonomy or "denying that they have their own internal life" (as carmel23 said). How does such a small thing have such huge and serious repercussions, in other words? The link between the two is where I am failing to understand.


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## P.J. (May 18, 2010)

Lots of thought provoking stuff here ladies. I love when I can look deeper and challenge my own parenting philosophies and practices.


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## AndtheStars (Mar 25, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *P.J.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep, and all I wanted to do 45 minutes ago was to post a question about my 2 year old who refuses to have blankets/sheets/whatever touching him but instead I read this whole thread









Seriously, I'm not trying to detract from the issues being discussed here but this is why I love MDC so much. I have a question about blankets that goes unasked because I'm reading about serious parenting philosophies.


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## Faither (Oct 27, 2009)

DH and I had a fight about this very "trick" after he taught it to DD. She stopped doing it three days later. And if you asked her now, would look at you like you are crazy and walk away to find something else. It was an interesting fight when it happened because DH said "I just wanted to teach her something that she would get and was cute." At the time I was annoyed because I thought it was a pointless trick. I still do but it was adorable. He's the stay at home parent so I feel like I don't have as much control over little things (& I do consider in the grander scheme of things, this to be little). But we agree on all of the bigger things and I pick my battles. We did Baby Led Weaning and that was important to me and he understood that and respected it, even when I wasn't home.

I think it's a pick your battles kind of thing. But if it is something that really bugs you, maybe you should say something to ex-MIL. I know with my inlaws and my own mother, things don't stop until you mention something. If DD was finished with something she'll say "all done" in sign language or just walk away. We've told everyone that they need to respect that and move on. Maybe teach your son how to say "all done" or remind your ex-MIL that if he walks away or is frustrated to let it go.

Good luck!


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## asraidevin (Jul 30, 2010)

I'm kinda frowning after reading this. Why is the "so big" thing a trick anymore than learning to do baby signs, count, or even repeat words?

I dislike the idea that by playing "so big" with my son is akin to a dog learning to dance on it's hind legs. Repetative, predictable games are the first things babies like to play with a caregiver. And it's so much fun to share when your child/grandchild has learned a new skill such as so big, to pull up or wave bye-bye.

If the child doesn't want to do it, then it can be let go at this age.


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## ContentMama (Oct 13, 2010)

Quote:


> I'm kinda frowning after reading this. Why is the "so big" thing a trick anymore than learning to do baby signs, count, or even repeat words?
> 
> I dislike the idea that by playing "so big" with my son is akin to a dog learning to dance on it's hind legs. Repetative, predictable games are the first things babies like to play with a caregiver. And it's so much fun to share when your child/grandchild has learned a new skill such as so big, to pull up or wave bye-bye.


All those other things can be seen as tricks too if they are reinforced with praise and attention....I'm all about letting the child lead the way, letting him be into what he wants at the moment and not swerving him off course because I think it's cute when he...fill in the blank. Plus, repeating words is something that doesn't need to be "taught" the child will learn it on their own.

We all have our different ways of being with babies, what we think is "right" and what we think "babies like to play".

you seemed to have taken my post personally....???


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asraidevin*
> 
> I'm kinda frowning after reading this. Why is the "so big" thing a trick anymore than learning to do baby signs, count, or even repeat words?
> 
> ...


I agree with you. Babies love routine, repetition and ritual. Little games like this increase the caregiver/child bond. This common knowledge and scientifically proven.


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## ContentMama (Oct 13, 2010)

Quote:


> I agree with you. Babies love routine, repetition and ritual. Little games like this increase the caregiver/child bond. This common knowledge and scientifically proven.


Playing the so big game is scientifically proven to increase the caregiver/child bond? I'd like to see the studies.

I agree that babies love routine, repetition and ritual. I do too! This isn't the same thing as being the director and producer for play time.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Sorry, I didn't realize this thread was only for people who agreed with you.

I went back and read your OP... it looks like the only mistake the MIL made was in pressuring him to play the game. Obviously, she should take a cue from him if he doesn't like that particular game anymore. There are tons of others.


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## asraidevin (Jul 30, 2010)

Sort of personally because I loved playing that game with my son and we would cheer and give him smiles, laughs, hugs for "performing". I didn't force it on him, we just played it and one day he raised his arms and waited for mme to say "How big is baby?".

I get the not directing to a point, but if I never introduce him to new things he'll never learn. If I don't repeat "So big" fifty or a hundred times he'll never learn. I'm just confused about the line. Do you believe in never directing? What is your criteria for praise and attention? I'm just confused.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ContentMama*
> 
> All those other things can be seen as tricks too if they are reinforced with praise and attention....I'm all about letting the child lead the way, letting him be into what he wants at the moment and not swerving him off course because I think it's cute when he...fill in the blank. Plus, repeating words is something that doesn't need to be "taught" the child will learn it on their own.
> 
> ...


The role of grandparents in the rearing of healthy and happy children should not be overlooked. A recent study concluded that spending time with a grandparent is linked with better social skills and fewer behavior problems among teenagers, especially those living in single-parent or stepfamily households. This study found that children and teenagers whose parents have separated or divorced see their grandparents as confidants and sources of comfort. In fact, supportive relationships with other family members outside the immediate family may lead to better adjustment for all children and teenagers

http://www.apa.org/pi/families/resources/parents-caregivers.aspx#


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## anjsmama (Apr 6, 2011)

I agree with your bit about grandparents involvement - but this highlighted is where you apparently disagree with OP (and myself, and a few others on this thread). I do not believe my baby needs me to introduce her to things in order for her to learn. I think she will discover things. I think she will listen to me talk and learn how from hearing me/watching me. Once she can talk, I think she will ask me about what sparks her curiousity. I will teach her as she pleases.

This is what I have done with my 3 year old DS as well. Many think it's odd that my DS can't sing the ABC song (and that he just recently learned to count to ten).... but he hasn't shown any interest when he hears another child doing it and I'm not going to sing it to him until he wants to. Right now, letters just aren't big for him. However, he can identify most any tree by its' leaves, tell you what ingredients go in most dishes that I prepare, tell you what almost any tool is used for, and he plays soccer better than most school age kids I've seen (though he's never had any sort of soccer experience). The concept the OP believes in (correct me if I'm wrong) is the idea that the child is born with everything inside.... when they show interest, you teach them. It's the difference a child saying "What's this? Tell me about... how does this work.... how can I...?" and an adult saying "We are going to do this. Let me show you this. I'm going to teach you how to...". Learning is intrinsic. Attention is constant - praise is mostly unnecessary. The child is proud of THEMSELVES, and that is what gives them worth. I praise my kids for things that just are - They ARE wonderful human beings, I love them because they exist, because they are mine... not because they behave a certain way or learn a certain skill.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *asraidevin*
> 
> Sort of personally because I loved playing that game with my son and we would cheer and give him smiles, laughs, hugs for "performing". I didn't force it on him, we just played it and one day he raised his arms and waited for mme to say "How big is baby?".
> 
> ...


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## 1stTimeMama4-4-10 (Feb 4, 2010)

Like so many threads I've read lately, this one seems to have been somewhat derailed. To the OP, for what it is worth, I get that your ex-MIL annoys you, and I think it is very possible that your feelings towards her cloud your judgment of her actions. What she is doing is not abusive or disrespectful in any rational sense of those words. I too get annoyed with my MIL over minor things, but I also recognize how very important she is in DD's life. I would never complain to her about the way that she interacts with DD if the only issues were the ones you described. I would not want to risk DD's relationship with her over such a small disagreement. Having a difference of opinion about big issues like spanking, television, playing with guns etc., is a different story. But you are not talking about those things. You are talking about the way she chooses to play. I know in my situation, if I tried to redirect MIL through giving her books or criticizing her, putting restrictions on her access to DD for the issues you describe, I doubt very much that it would go over well. I wish you luck in dealing with this issue. I really struggle with keeping myself in check when it comes to MIL, so I can totally relate. I don't believe she is doing anything that warrants intervention though.


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ContentMama*
> 
> Playing the so big game is scientifically proven to increase the caregiver/child bond? I'd like to see the studies.
> 
> I agree that babies love routine, repetition and ritual. I do too! This isn't the same thing as being the director and producer for play time.


How exactly is leading a child in a game of "So Big!" playing producer and director of playtime? It is one, little, and- in the big scheme of things- totally insignificant game. YKWIM? Must be a perspective issue as well as a philosophical one. One person's playing with their baby is another person's "stealing baby's autonomy".Babies are, after all, babies...they can't walk or talk and they're still learning to express their needs. They love to watch and mimic their parents and caregivers. Even if you embrace child-led parenting, you are going to be the initiator and the leader in most of the interactions you have with the baby, just naturally.

My larger question....(and I have read every post in this thread, btw.)...Say that as a parent you ARE the producer/director/initiator of most playtime. What exactly is damaging about this? It's disrespectful? Ok, how so?


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coffeegirl*
> 
> My larger question....(and I have read every post in this thread, btw.)...Say that as a parent you ARE the producer/director/initiator of most playtime. What exactly is damaging about this? It's disrespectful? Ok, how so?


i don't want to argue on this thread and i don't see this as such. i think it's good to share perspectives, and that is what i am trying to do.

hitting your kid damages your kid. how you choose to educate your child isn't "damaging" in that sense, so that seems like kind of a loaded statement, you know? let's back off that a little bit and if you want to talk about WHY some of us think it's not a great choice for the way we want to parent/school/unskool/whatever, we can.

for me, it's not the greatest idea, as i have done a good bit of reading and research and formal education at the graduate level about different instructional methods and learning styles and child development. i really like what i see from styles like montessori, where a child tends to stay motivated to learn rather than learn to be led, if that makes any sense. i think really the problem with modern public education is that it sets up a paradigm where a child loses motivation and curiosity. i think that letting the child direct playtime and learning stimulates and encourages curiosity, and lets the child realize intrinsic motivation. that's also the problem that i personally have with reward systems-- that they produce a habit of expectation of reward or praise rather than letting knowledge and learning be the reward. education is a process that is never completed, and by breaking it up into little bits and giving out treats or "good job" kinds of things, it really shifts what i see as a child's natural tendancy to explore and turns it into learning by habit or learning when led.

but i think it takes a good bit of conditioning to quell and squash curiosity and eagerness, too, and that some kids will continue to thrive no matter the conditions placed on learning, but in my mind, why go there?


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## Quinalla (May 23, 2005)

I'm not against teaching kids silly games or songs or tricks myself, but if they aren't into it, then continuing to try over and over seems weird to me. But it may be that adult doesn't know how to interact with a child in any other way too, so maybe they need suggestions on what to do or just to tell them that it is ok to let the child lead. But yeah, I think the most important thing is respecting the child. If they are loving you singing the ABCs to them, then great, but if they are saying "No" in whatever way they can, let them take the lead or try a different game. I'm one who tries to let my daughter take the lead more, but sometimes she seems a bit stuck, so I'll start a game of chase or whatever and gauge her response. Luckily she is very clear about what she wants and doesn't want most of the time, so it is pretty easy to tell. There are times when my DH will bug me when he is being too controlling IMO of her play. He wants her to play something specific with him or a certain way or whatever. To me, as long as it is safe for her and anyone she is playing with/around and won't damage things, I am happy with however she wants to play.

But I do agree that you don't have to drill things into kids for them to learn, kids are constantly learning, but if there is something that you think is important for them to learn, I also don't think there is anything wrong with introducing it them respectfully. If they are enjoying it, great for everyone! If not, then move on to something they do enjoy and revisit it later when their interests change.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I didn't do the "so big" thing with my kids because honestly I don't get it - not my kind of game I guess. But we do and did pat-a-cake and that kind of thing. I do like self-directed stuff, and I do avoid praise, but I figure I can show them something, and if they appear into it, do it more so long as they continue to seem to be enjoying it and wanting it. But I try to think of it as showing rather than teaching. The difference to me is that in one case I'm just introducing the game and then following their lead, rather than showing over and over and trying to create interest.

If I'm reading the OP right, she is probably OK with introducing a game and then following the child's lead and continuing so long as there is interest, as explained above, but her MIL is playing this game with her ds even when he doesn't appear interested. Which, as I said, is IMO not a hill to die on and I think maintaining the relationship with the grandparent is a more important issue, but I do get her point.

I think some people in the thread might be talking past each other - like "introducing the game" to one person might be interpreted as "teaching the game" by another, or vice versa.


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## holothuroidea (Mar 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> I didn't do the "so big" thing with my kids because honestly I don't get it - not my kind of game I guess. But we do and did pat-a-cake and that kind of thing. I do like self-directed stuff, and I do avoid praise, but I figure I can show them something, and if they appear into it, do it more so long as they continue to seem to be enjoying it and wanting it. But I try to think of it as showing rather than teaching. The difference to me is that in one case I'm just introducing the game and then following their lead, rather than showing over and over and trying to create interest.
> 
> ...


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## rhiOrion (Feb 17, 2009)

Really?

Are you sure you're not just annoyed by your ex-MIL in general? Because this is just silly to me.

I don't understand why it seems like so often things that should just be a petty annoyance (which we all have) get blown up into some big life-altering issue that is going to ruin your kid. I see it on MDC all. the. time.

My ILs and my parents all do things that annoy me. And yeah, I might bitch about it to my friends. But I certainly don't act like it's some huge deal and stifling their creativity and their abilities to be all sparkly and crunchy clean.

You have free child care. Do you really think you're going to find childcare that is satisfactory if this is the bar you're setting? I pay $1000 a month for someone to watch my kid and I promise they're probably playing that same game.

Heck, I asked my kid "What does a cow say?" about ten times tonight. It's fun to see her learn new things, and she has fun learning them. Does it mean she never gets tired of it? No.

But I wish people would quit acting like it's practically child abuse to teach your kid things and to encourage them to repeat what you've taught them. As long as she's not lashing him with sticks every time he gives the wrong answer ("no! you're not that big! you're THIIIIIIIIS BIG!") I think you should just bite your tongue and appreciate a good thing when you've got it.


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## rhiOrion (Feb 17, 2009)

However, I've never played this game with L before. It kinda sounds like fun.


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## Riverbeauty (Apr 2, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *colsxjack*
> 
> Maybe you could let her know what his signs are for moving on and not wanting to participate in an activity any longer. And.or show her other things that your son enjoys doing and playing that will also be fun for her. That may at least give her more fun and show her that the one game isn;t all he van do and also help her to read his cues. Some people are not great at reading childrens cues, Hopefully she will then play a wider variety of games with him and allow him the opportunity to express his "skills" more,


I read the OP and was like... "







playing a game with my child is going to squash his sparkly glitter!?"

Then I read followup post #15 and was like "







It would annoy me if someone was pushing the game past my kid's interest level..."

Then I was thinking that if I were in that situation I would... Then I read the post by colsxjack and thought, well, this person already said it!


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hildare*
> 
> i don't want to argue on this thread and i don't see this as such. i think it's good to share perspectives, and that is what i am trying to do.
> 
> ...


Thanks for attempting to explain this in a way that I can kinda understand.  Do you (and this is also for ContentMama, holothuroidea, et al) see this as an either/or situation? For instance...in the "So Big" game, it's led by the caregiver....so according to your philosophy "So Big" might fall into the category of hindering the child's natural curiosity and suppressing the realization of his intrinsic motivations. I can actually kinda wrap my mind around that, for the first time in this thread. But, do you believe that (what I'm assuming is) a few minutes of this game in the course of a day full of all different kinds of interactions will really have this much of a detrimental effect on a child?

I could see how that might be a concern if, for instance, a reluctant child were forced into playing "So Big", or any other kind of similar game, for hours/days on end.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rhiOrion*
> 
> Really?
> 
> Are you sure you're not just annoyed by your ex-MIL in general? Because this is just silly to me.


I agree. I think she's making an effort to bond with your child and you feel you need to micro manage their play.


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