# African American's, breaking the cycle, (update, post 34)



## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

I was raised getting "popped". MY mom believes in popping children if necessary. So does my husband. Everyone whom I know that is African American has good stories about how they "got their behind whipped good" for some transgression or the other...Most everybody I know does it.

But the more I learn about gentle discipline, the more harsh discipline just doesn't seem right to me.

But it is a difficult cycle to break. When everybody around you does it, and no one sees anything wrong with it, and all the children who did not get spanked were considered "spoiled brats."

How can one break this cycle?

I have never popped my child, he is only 12 months old, no reason to as of yet, but there are days, when he is doing something, and he knows that you know that he knows that you know that he knows that he's not supposed to do it. And then there are times when he is doing something dangerous, like trying to grab a knife out of the dishwasher when your back is turned while you are getting another plate to load in there....He always does things like that the moment your back is turned cause he knows you don't want him to do it...and also sticking his finger suddenly into the sewing machine while I'm sewing. How do I convey to him that these things will hurt him and he should not touch them?


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Hi - there was a discussion months and months ago (maybe even a year ago)about persons of color and how cultural heritage and current societal expectations make it much more challenging for non whites to raise their children with Gentle Discipline...I really wish the search feature was working, because I think it was a great discussion and would probably help you out as far as the cultural and societal factors, a lot of good points were brought up.

As far as the specific situations you're talking about regarding "knowing that he knows that you know that he knows that you know"... - which made me







and the dangerous situations, really with a 12-month-old it's ALL about the parent redirecting, babyproofing as much as humanly possible, distracting, and just simply repeatedly removing either the kiddo or the object. There's just no way that a baby that age can be expected to really "understand" anything about consequences, or to be able to control their impulses - so even if they "know", their little brains just NEED to do it and explore and test, etc. etc.

Those particular issues are cross cultural and happen no matter what color your skin.

As to how you can try to raise a child with GD amidst a strong cultural and societal expectation to use harsher parenting, that is a whole different topic of discussion; I'm actually going to try to find the previous thread for you because I think it was that valuable and important, and would likely be helpful...but it might take me a while to find it.

Mostly, right now you need to concentrate on brushing up on what is developmentally appropriate intellectually, emotionally, and socially for your child's age range, and then use redirection, distraction, etc. to help guide your child. "Popping" or whatever other euphemism is used for striking a child to gain compliance teaches them nothing but to fear the person who hits them, and fear is NOT a good way to teach and guide a small child....which you clearly already figured out!
















I'll post a link to that old thread if I can find it...I hope I can. If anyone else remembers it and finds it, please feel free to post the link!

There was also a recent discussion about "danger and swatting" or something along those lines that might be valuable to you - I'll see if I can dig that one up, too.....I'm off to wade through thousands of threads without a search function














:









_Edited To Add: OMG, I found it! HA!! And actually, it was kind of funny to read my own posts, and see how my own concepts of GD have evolved just in the time I've posted here regularly...who knows, maybe by this time next year I'll be a full blown non-coercive parent!







_

A-A GD thread

_Here's that other one I was talking about, about "swatting" still NOT being OK even when there is danger...warning though, towards the end it got way woff topic, so you might want to just stick with the first few pages._ It's (not) OK....


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## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

I am not a mama of color, so I don't think my life experience can ever be quite what yours is, but I am somewhat experienced in 'breaking the cycle'. My parents hit for every infraction, as did the parents of all my friends. I grew up with the mindset that if you were 'bad', you DESERVED to be spanked, and any parent who didn't spank shouldn't be allowed to have children. It was a very adult v. child system of belief.

Now that I have my own, I have found that despite the fact that I KNOW in my heart of hearts that any kind of violence is wrong, that every day I must DECIDE that I will not hit my son. Hopefully, someday, it will become the natural response to GD, but for now I still must deal with the voice inside of me that says, "He's being naughty; he should have his hand slapped."


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

I am AA and I will say that while I was raised by a spanking Dad & Mom that I have learned that there are plenty of Black folks who don't spank. Just a matter of making a choice about how you want to raise your own kids.

I gotta run but will try to post more later.

Shay


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shayinme*
I am AA and I will say that while I was raised by a spanking Dad & Mom that I have learned that there are plenty of Black folks who don't spank. Just a matter of making a choice about how you want to raise your own kids.

I gotta run but will try to post more later.

Shay

See, that's the thing with me. I don't know anyone who doesn't. It is hard when my husband is saying "Pop him. He needs to learn not to touch the knife/needle, etc..."

It is hard when my mother used to pop/whip/spank me.

My memories include a vague foggy memorie of my mom giving me a really bad whipping with something (a fly swatter? shoe? belt? it was something....don't remember, I almost thought this was a dream... but it was too vivid, detailed, too recurrent to be a dream...) in the bathroom so nobody could hear me cry. Later I asked her about it, she insisted I must have dreamed it cause she never remembers that happenning. I remember being spanked cause I pulled a whole into my stockings, after being specifically told not to. I was also spanked by my kindergarden teach (AA) and my first grade teacher (also AA).

Some days it's hard to see my ds as not knowing any better about something, when he is so intelligient. Sometimes he even goes as far as announcing when he is about to do something he knows not to do. He will say "no no no!!!" really loudly, as he heads toward the sewing machine. His two favorite things are the sewing machine and the dishwasher. It's impossible to redirect his attention away from those 2 things. ESPECIALLY the diswasher. He likes to try to help me with that, and I let him, but he just needs to understand not to go near the knives.I will pull his hand away from them repeatedly, maybe about 10 times within 10 seconds, so then he stops, but waits patiently, it even seems like his attention has been redirected as he plays with some other nondangerous dish, but he waits till i turn for a split second to grab another armload of dishes and once again makes a dive for the knives knowing that I'm not watching him for that split second....

I've tried to wear him, but the moment he hears/sees the dishwasher opening, doesn't matter if he's on the other side of the room, or on my back, he makes a beeline. I surrender, as long as he doesn't get the knives, but that's usually what he tries to get..

He is also starting to have miniature temper tantrums. Popping is the only way I know, and It's hard fighting against the only thing that I know. My dad never whooped me, and I would like to follow his example. a stern glance always got his point across, but my baby is too young to understand a stern glance.

It's hard with everybody I love telling me to pop him. But I just don't want to do that.

But I'm off to review those threads now..thanks for those links..


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## faithnj (Dec 19, 2004)

I sympathise with you.

It's funny-- the people who criticise overly permissive parents may have a point or two. We've all seen parents who allow their kids to hit them and curse them and otherwise abuse them. Seeing this is probably what perpetuates the idea that if kids don't get "popped" they will be spoiled. (That, and the Bible.) And frankly, I don't really know who'd be dying to do GD if the only kids they had seen raised this way seemed terribly unhappy, impossible to satisfy, abusive to adults, and willing to ignore authorities. For AA's, it's doubly important to discourage this kind of behavior if you don't want your son to be the next Rodney King. *But all the same*-- people rarely acknowledge how so many kids who DO get popped and spanked and beaten _still_ turn out angry and malevalent and violent. Obviously spanking isn't the perfect cure for troublesome behavior either, eh?

Anyway, back to your situation:
I don't really think there's a way to make a 12 month old understand consequenses and rules. 12 month olds are still so very infantile, despite the crawling and walking. Yeah, they may remember that you _told_ them "don't touch." But for safety reasons, you still have to stick to him like white on rice, keep him away from things, erect barriers and redirect him. Heck- even if you "popped" him for certain behaviors, he still probably couldn't control his _impulse_ to touch things yet-- and that's shearly due to his age and how he is designed to learn about his environment-- which is chiefly through touch and taste. However, I think you should still keep telling him "no, no" or "dangerous" or "hot" or "not for babies," or "not for your mouth," or "touch nice" or "hands are for hugging, not for hitting," or "you can't have this but you can have that," or whatever-- over and over again when it's appropriate. Say it in a friendly, happy voice if it's appropriate, or else a flat, matter of fact voice that's not judgemental, so he doesn't feel bad about himself. It's hard work, and you'll have to avoid sending mixed messages. In fact, there may be fishy times when it's even better just to send no message at all, rather than confuse him. (My husband still has anxiety over walking on grass. Guess some rule about not walking on a specific patch of grass got generalized to ALL grass in his head.) But your son needs the information, and it's worth thinking about and repeating things so that he can build his own inner "file box" of things he needs to know to keep him safe and healthy. Despite his lack of impulse control and his overwhelming need to explore, he's learning a tremendous amount from you right now. He just can't act on it or express it all yet. However, in only a few more months you should start to see the beginnings of him making a few good decisions on his own. You'll know it was all worth the effort the first time you hear him flatly say "hot" and walk away to find something else to play with.

Best wishes!

Faith


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## faithnj (Dec 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gabysmom617*
....... Sometimes he even goes as far as announcing when he is about to do something he knows not to do. He will say "no no no!!!" really loudly, as he heads toward the sewing machine.

*Oh! That's so good! And completely normal!* He's in the process!!! When you hear the "no,no, no's", that's how you know he _has_ internalized your messages. It's just that he's still to young to control his impulses. He can't ACT on what he knows yet. Don't worry. Give it time. The fact that he's saying "no, no, no" is a really, really, really a good thing. Probably when he's about my DD's age (18 months) or even younger, you'll see him say "No." Spin on his heels, and find something else to play with. Or else he won't even say "No." He'll just redirect himself on his own. Just start adding other words to the list as well-- like "hot" and "dangerous." That way he'll also have _reasons_ for avoiding things in his little file box of safety rules. And give him things to do instead. Maybe buy him a toy sewing machine. Or get him the tool bench with the saw and the drill that move up and down and make whirring noises, since it's the up and down movement and the whirring noise that is probably fascinating him.
It's made for 3 year olds, but my DD has been loving that thing for months. It's also got a plane that kids can learn to take apart and put back together.

Quote:

His two favorite things are the sewing machine and the dishwasher. It's impossible to redirect his attention away from those 2 things. ESPECIALLY the diswasher. He likes to try to help me with that, and I let him, but he just needs to understand not to go near the knives.
Simply let him help you with everything, and leave the knives (or all the cutlery) until last. Then grab the knives, bring the dishwasher door a bit out of his reach, shove the knives into the cutlery basket, and quickly close the door. That way he gets to help you with everything that's safe until the last possible moment. Hope that helps!

Quote:

He is also starting to have miniature temper tantrums. Popping is the only way I know, and It's hard fighting against the only thing that I know. My dad never whooped me, and I would like to follow his example. a stern glance always got his point across, but my baby is too young to understand a stern glance.
Sure, he understands a stern glance. He just can't control his emotions.

You have to make your own judgement calls, but here are a few things I do-- I ignore some temper tantrums (power plays.) Other temper tantrums ("hissy fits") are given a stern look, and then I walk away. I don't want my DD to think tantrums are a way to get attention or what she wants-- but know that I am surely paying attention privately-- as I'm looking for information on what's going on that she can't express. I try to resolve FRUSTRATION TANTRUMS. DD has these when she can't get a puzzle piece in place (for example.) I talk soothingly to her,while I put the puzzle piece close enough to it's slot so that she can easily slide it in place herself. In other words, I help her, but I don't take over. Some temper tantrums I deem neccessary for blowing of steam, because dd is over stimulated and frustrated and short on sleep or whatever. In her case, holding her does not help, so I sit near by in sympathy, and I let her get it all out to the very end, and then we hug and I read her a book or something. Some people have children who like to be held during this type of tantrum. But for some kids, holding, touching or talking to them when the kid needs to blow off steam only prolongs the tantrum. It's like they are just to sensitive and overwrought to deal with any additional stimuli.

Those are the only types of tantrums I can think of right now. My DD is very verbal, and we do sign language, so I'm not sure of what type of tantrums she might have if she wanted milk and couldn't get that info across to me. I suppose it would be a frustration tantrum. If your DS can't speak much, I'd suggest teaching him 2-3 signs for things he really likes and wants a lot, plus the sign for "more." No use in having a child angry because all he wanted was a bit more milk! LOL!

Faith

***edited to say that a lot of people posted while I wrote this. Sorry if some of the info is redundant.


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## bellona (Feb 17, 2006)

It's hard when you are in an environment where everyone spanks. I am in an environment where at best children are expected to be immediately obedient, and more times than not spanked. If you used a scale of one to 10 to describe children's behavior, 1 bieng the worst, my expirience that a parent who spanks may have a child that's at about 3 and will preach to you about how your child needs to be hit, yet won't consider your parenting style to be effective unless your child is at about 9.

I'm not AA, but from what I can see it's worse there. For your kids to not be hit and people to not give you a hard time about it I would think your kids would have to be perfect. That's alot of stress to put on a parent. Not to mention, not all of us want perfectly obedient kids







.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

I am not going to speak to the larger issue here but for the knives in the diswasher...I take out the cutlery rack(mine lifts out) and put it out of reach and then let the baby help with the rest. I take the sharp knives out, then let baby help me with cutlery. Keeps it safe.


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## radhika (May 5, 2005)

Gabysmom wrote:

>> Some days it's hard to see my ds as not knowing any better about something, when he is so intelligient. <<

...but it is *because* he is intelligent that he's trying to get into everything! To learn about the world, he has to explore, touch, feel. And he doesn't know how to learn any other way. So if you feel something is just too dangerous there's no other way (at this stage) than to keep it away from him.

Like allgirls, I too keep the cutlery rack on the counter top away from my daughter's reach. Then I don't have to keep worrying about her getting to the knives. If I am loading, that rack gets loaded on top of the counter and then goes in the dishwasher last, just before I shut it. Of course keep gently reminding him that knives are too sharp, can hurt baby. But don't expect him to "listen" at this stage. Slowly he will outgrow it.

Do you have someone else to watch him while you sew? I wouldn't try to get any sewing done if not... Until he is a little older and can be convinced that sharp needles and machines are inappopriate toys!


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gabysmom617*
See, that's the thing with me. I don't know anyone who doesn't. It is hard when my husband is saying "Pop him. He needs to learn not to touch the knife/needle, etc..."


Only got a sec since dd is underfoot but I think you really need to get your dh to understand why you want to use GD. The impression I get is that your dh is not on the same place with you and that needs to change. I think if he were to understand and agree with GD it would make dealing with everyone else in your life easier. You know a united front. Back later.

Shay


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gabysmom617*
*He always does things like that the moment your back is turned cause he knows you don't want him to do it*...and also sticking his finger suddenly into the sewing machine while I'm sewing. How do I convey to him that these things will hurt him and he should not touch them?

I think one of the first things to do to break the cycle, is totally forget this. Change your mind about "he does it because he knows I don't want him to." See that his intentions are not to make you unhappy. His intentions are probably more along the lines of "ooh, that thing looks fun. Mom plays with it, so I can play with it too." And he waits until your back is turned because he knows you'll stop him. Not because he knows you don't want him to do it- see the difference?
See the best of intentions in everything your ds does, and I can just about promise that you will be correct. And even if you are not- what does it hurt to go at a situation without that judgement? Go at it as a teaching opportunity? "Oh! ds! That knife is SHARP. It could hurt you! Let's put it back where it belongs, and get something safe to play with." This way, he is learning that there is more to what is acceptable and what is not, than just what you will let him do- there are reasons for what you allow and what you don't. He's beginning to learn SELF discipline.

And when he does that stuff, there is a legitimate impulse behind it. Like I said, he sees YOU play with the knife, and to him it must look fun. So, imo, the BEST thing to do to help a child do the right thing is always give acceptable alternatives. (ime, explanations alone are not effective all the time) That helps them express that impulse, in a way that is agreeable to you. Look for mutually agreeable solutions- ones that both you and ds are happy with.

And actually, if you forget any of the "intentional misbehaving" stuff, gd is easy. It becomes a teamwork thing. YOU working with HIM, to help him to do the socially acceptable thing. When ds does something unacceptable, you TEACH him why it's unacceptable, and give him similar alternatives that are acceptable. ("no, you cannot play with the sharp knife. But you can help me cut the bread with this butter knife") or (no, you cannot bang on the window with blocks. But you can wipe the window with a towel, or you can build with the blocks).

I gotta say, a few weekends ago I went to a b-day party for a 1yo. We were at a park, and most of the people there were african american. I did not see one bit of harsh discipline. I did see a few bits of definitely gd. One mom was calmly explaining "yes, we will get you a drink. But I have to use the bathroom first." stuff like that. The ONLY yelling (sortof) that I heard was when one boy hurt another boy. And the man said something about "don't hurt him" etc- the same type of thing that I might have said. Didn't sound harsh to me.
I probably seemed like the "meanest" one there! I took ds, crying, away from the playground on more than one occasion. (it was bright, in the middle of the day, we are fair and I'm paranoid about sunburns, I was hungry, and I wanted to socialize, etc). I was considerate of his feelings, and tried to find other fun things to do AT the party, but someone even said that there was so much to do there, that there was no need for anyone to cry. I felt bad







but also like i had a valid reason.

But anyways, I think its totally awesome when anyone tries to break a harsh cycle. Stick around, and post some specific issues you are having, and I promise we'll try to help you out. You can definitely gd a toddler!


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gabysmom617*
See, that's the thing with me. I don't know anyone who doesn't. It is hard when my husband is saying "Pop him. He needs to learn not to touch the knife/needle, etc..." ..

Yes, that would be hard. But "popping him" isn't going to teach him WHY to not touch the knife. You can definitely teach that stuff with words, explanations, redirections to similar items, and, if the situation warrants, a demonstration. Yesterday ds wanted to play with my stapler. It did not seem safe to me, so I got a staple out and had him touch it, so it poked him (it didn't hurt him, but he got the point). Then I stapled a piece of paper, telling him that's what staplers are meant to do. They put those sharp staples through different items. We talked about it for a while, and he was satisfied with it. I would have gone on to let him staple paper, with me watching closely, but it never got there.
So, for a knife, perhaps you could show him how sharp it is by demonstrating that it can cut a banana, or something.

Quote:

Some days it's hard to see my ds as not knowing any better about something, when he is so intelligient. Sometimes he even goes as far as announcing when he is about to do something he knows not to do. He will say "no no no!!!" really loudly, as he heads toward the sewing machine. His two favorite things are the sewing machine and the dishwasher.
Yes, he KNOWS that your response to him touching those things will be "no" He knows you willl stop him. But that isn't translating yet to HIM stopping himself. kwim? That's your job, as far as he's concerned. lol.
And an intelligent child can have things explained to them, and be redirected, etc, and "get it" faster than any type of punishment.
What I'd do with the dishwasher, is let him help as often as possible. Let him "help" you put dishes away. My ds has helped from a young age- he'll stack up 2 plates and hand them to me to put away. Let him put some plastic cups in it, to help you load it. Ime, the more I let ds do things like that, the more his extreme desire to do it fades.
With the knives and stuff, can you just put the silverware thing up on the counter? OR load the knives last. Or, one thing I used to do, when ds was touching the dirty dishes and it made me uncomfortable, was to say "let's take away the temptation to touch these dirty dishes." Then he'd help me shut the door, and I'd do dishes a little later. If you keep going in this type of situation, it usually creates a power struggle, which is not a good thing!
(we had that issue with him opening the fridge door. It happened for months. it annoyed me to no end! But, once I started letting him look in the fridge as long as he wanted, that phase was over in just a few days. I guess he got it out of his system)
The sewing maching, I dunno. Maybe you could come up with something that he can use as his own sewing maching? Maybe he can help you by handing you different things to sew? Or you could take the needle out, and let him touch it and mess with it.

Quote:

He is also starting to have miniature temper tantrums. Popping is the only way I know, and It's hard fighting against the only thing that I know. My dad never whooped me, and I would like to follow his example. a stern glance always got his point across, but my baby is too young to understand a stern glance.
A tantruming child is a child who's emotions are too strong for him to handle. There is nothing wrong with expressing emotions. My way of dealing with tantrums is to acknowledge the feelings, and sit close and hold ds if he wants held. If what is making him upset is something that I can't or won't do (say, he wants candy), I still acknowledge that he wants candy, and whatever. But I don't get it for him.

Quote:

It's hard with everybody I love telling me to pop him. But I just don't want to do that.
Yeah, that would be hard. But your instincts are in the right place, and they seem very strong, for you to have listened to them over everyone else









eta:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *faithnj*
The fact that he's saying "no, no, no" is a really, really, really a good thing. Probably when he's about my DD's age (18 months) or even younger, you'll see him say "No." Spin on his heels, and find something else to play with. Or else he won't even say "No." He'll just redirect himself on his own.

My ds does this now. I can see him about to hit a dog, and he'll pause, shake his head no, and either pet them, or move on to something else. Its too cute!


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## marsupial*mama (May 13, 2006)

You know, sometimes we protect our kids beyond what is useful for them. I can totally understand why you want to protect your son from knives and needles, however, if you can create a relatively _more_ safe context where he can indulge his curiosity, you may find that his dangerous behaviour subsides. My point is, if he can hold a needle and experience it's sharpness, even prick his finger with it, maybe cry a little because of that, he will have learned a lesson in a single instant that would otherwise take many months of redirection. Natural consequences are nature's own teachers. As parents, we see our role as protecting our children from harm - all harm - when we could be allowing them to explore dangers, identify their boundaries of safety and even experience that danger first hand and in a controlled fashion, and respecting their need to learn by _doing_ rather than learn by _being told_.

The lesson remains long after the burn, cut, prick, scratch has healed itself.


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

So many pearls of wisdom here. I will definitely stick around. I don't know why I never thought about taking the silverware basket out of the dishwasher to load it.







I tell u, my brain has not been the same since I got pregnant.

I try to teach him about natural consequences as much as possible. But he just learned to walk and is very staggery and wobbly. I don't have too much of a problem with the sewing machine, he only wants it when he sees me using it, and there are so many other things on it for him to play with he doesn't always get the needle. He likes put his mouth on the table when I am using it, the vibrations trips him out, he thinks it's hilarious. He also think the wheel on the side that spins when I'm using it is hilarious. He touches it, he likes when it spins underneath his hand. I can deal with those things.

It's just that usually when he picks up an object, he likes to walk off with it. I feel he is too wobbly to be walking off somewhere with an object that's dangerous to him. If he tumbles the wrong way, the object could end up getting lodged in a horrible place, and I would never forgive myself.

I have been known to do things, such as, if he is sitting quietly with one of my non-pointy pairs of scissors and I will let him keep them and explore them for a short time under a very watchful eye. The moment he tries to get up and stagger around with them, or open them, however, they get taken away.


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## dawncayden (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gabysmom617*
His two favorite things are the sewing machine and the dishwasher. It's impossible to redirect his attention away from those 2 things. ESPECIALLY the diswasher. He likes to try to help me with that, and I let him, but he just needs to understand not to go near the knives.I will pull his hand away from them repeatedly, maybe about 10 times within 10 seconds, so then he stops, but waits patiently, it even seems like his attention has been redirected as he plays with some other nondangerous dish, but he waits till i turn for a split second to grab another armload of dishes and once again makes a dive for the knives knowing that I'm not watching him for that split second....

I've tried to wear him, but the moment he hears/sees the dishwasher opening, doesn't matter if he's on the other side of the room, or on my back, he makes a beeline. I surrender, as long as he doesn't get the knives, but that's usually what he tries to get..

Have you tried not putting knives in the dishwasher and just wash them by hand? That way he can help you with the dishes and not get hurt.

Dawn


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## mamachandi (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gabysmom617*
See, that's the thing with me. I don't know anyone who doesn't. It is hard when my husband is saying "Pop him. He needs to learn not to touch the knife/needle, etc..."

It is hard when my mother used to pop/whip/spank me.

My memories include a vague foggy memorie of my mom giving me a really bad whipping with something (a fly swatter? shoe? belt? it was something....don't remember, I almost thought this was a dream... but it was too vivid, detailed, too recurrent to be a dream...) in the bathroom so nobody could hear me cry. Later I asked her about it, she insisted I must have dreamed it cause she never remembers that happenning. I remember being spanked cause I pulled a whole into my stockings, after being specifically told not to. I was also spanked by my kindergarden teach (AA) and my first grade teacher (also AA).

Some days it's hard to see my ds as not knowing any better about something, when he is so intelligient. Sometimes he even goes as far as announcing when he is about to do something he knows not to do. He will say "no no no!!!" really loudly, as he heads toward the sewing machine. His two favorite things are the sewing machine and the dishwasher. It's impossible to redirect his attention away from those 2 things. ESPECIALLY the diswasher. He likes to try to help me with that, and I let him, but he just needs to understand not to go near the knives.I will pull his hand away from them repeatedly, maybe about 10 times within 10 seconds, so then he stops, but waits patiently, it even seems like his attention has been redirected as he plays with some other nondangerous dish, but he waits till i turn for a split second to grab another armload of dishes and once again makes a dive for the knives knowing that I'm not watching him for that split second....

I've tried to wear him, but the moment he hears/sees the dishwasher opening, doesn't matter if he's on the other side of the room, or on my back, he makes a beeline. I surrender, as long as he doesn't get the knives, but that's usually what he tries to get..

He is also starting to have miniature temper tantrums. Popping is the only way I know, and It's hard fighting against the only thing that I know. My dad never whooped me, and I would like to follow his example. a stern glance always got his point across, but my baby is too young to understand a stern glance.

It's hard with everybody I love telling me to pop him. But I just don't want to do that.

But I'm off to review those threads now..thanks for those links..

ummm...does your dishwashers utensil holder come out? could you just put it on the counter,out of reach,while you load??









oops I see that was already mentioned


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gabysmom617*
I will definitely stick around.









yay!

You sound like such a gd mama!
I'd be thinking the same thing about sharp objects while walking!! (I actually still do feel that way lol). Most situations have a mutually agreeable solution. If you can't find one, you can find a respectful way to enforce safety.


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## ShiningStar (Jul 8, 2006)

I just recently found this site. I'm AA and I can understand how you feel. It would be nice to have friends or family who felt the same way as I do about disciplining children. In my heart I know I can raise a responsible child without spanking, but I haven't had the opportunity to witness others doing so first-hand. I'm positive about my decision not to spank, but I don't want to have to debate/defend it. Many of the people I know are very defensive about spanking. When I've told people in the past that I don't plan to spank (dd is 4 months), they take it personally. As if I'm condemning their parenting skills with the choices I make for myself and my child. It's just so annoying because I'm not going to change my mind.

Now though, I'm mainly frustrated with DH. He agreed with me about not using spanking. Just last night we had a new conversation about the subject, and he asked what I defined as spanking







. To me spanking is any form of hitting, but for him "popping" is exempt. So here's the rest of our convo...
DH: What if dd has a pair of scissors and is about to put it into a socket?
Me: Take the scissors from her and tell her No.
DH: Are you _serious_? (as if I was crazy).
I literally got hot and cut the conversation off. I don't know what to do. He and I need to figure this out, but can tell it's not going to be pleasant. Ugh!

Anyway, I hope you come back to share how you handle this. Good luck.


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## mamacatsbaby (Jul 27, 2005)

Gotta wash the babe. Be back!


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## Emmom (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gabysmom617*
He likes put his mouth on the table when I am using it, the vibrations trips him out, he thinks it's hilarious.










This is so funny to visualize!!
Have you ever seen A Series of Unfortunate Events? It reminds me of the baby in that movie, Sunny.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShiningStar*
DH: What if dd has a pair of scissors and is about to put it into a socket?
Me: Take the scissors from her and tell her No.
DH: Are you _serious_? (as if I was crazy).

lol.







:
I'd have ds participate in the solution. So, I'd have him "help" me put the scissors back where they belong. He likes to help with anything









Do you think you could get dh to read about developmentally approproate behavior? Or listen to you after you read it?
read here on ideas for specific incidents, and share the responses with your dh. Some of them make a lot of sense! (I'd imagine even to people who aren't gd)


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## faithnj (Dec 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gabysmom617*
So many pearls of wisdom here. I will definitely stick around. I don't know why I never thought about taking the silverware basket out of the dishwasher to load it.







I tell u, my brain has not been the same since I got pregnant.....

*Dealing with family and friends:*
It's probably most important that when you're family is advocating "the pop," Tell 'em you're experimenting with something. Let them know you aren't ignoring so-called "misbehavior," _at all._ (Which at your child's age is largely curiosity, and lack of impulse control-- not misbehaviour.) You are just helping him develop a memory of what's a no and what's a yes....and with repitition he'll get and act on it in just a few months. Family members tend to have good intentions. They just want to make sure you aren't "neglecting" the moral and behavioural development of your child. (Especially your husband.) After all, the consequenses that come to AA's boys who don't know how to get with the program can be so very severe. (Rodney Kind comes to mind again.) Family members can calm down when they to know that you're paying attention to the "bad" behaviors, and that you really do have a plan. It also helps if you tell them he can't really control himself at 12 months, but that you know that in a few months this is going to change. And brag a lot about what he's doing RIGHT. Even that helps put famly members at ease. *Rignt now I work a lot of different and alternative methods, and my family of spankers thinks I parent my DD beautifully.* Probably the crux of the whole thing is that they see she's getting a LOT of talking to and a LOT of teaching and a LOT of supervision. Yeah, they don't see me spank her, as they've spanked their own. But as long as she's learning and delightful and appears to be turning out well, they are confident so far that I know what I'm doing with this individual I've been blessed with.

Otherwise, don't blame yourself for mommy brain. Mommy brain or not, _learning to change your reactions takes time, time, time._, "Getting" GD parenting is not a done deal. It's a practice, like working towards "enlightenment" and the rules change daily. Sometimes my DD is doing something, crawling all over something.....it used to feel like she's stalling to keep me from leaving, or flat-out ignoring me. But in fact, once I learned to wait and watch what she's doing, I realized she's just being curious and exploring something, and that it takes time to. It takes a minute before she's mentally processed what I've said to her, then realized she has to put something down and turn around towards me, then reach out and join me. I had to learn that she's still too young to stop exploring and spin on a dime towards me just because I've said so. When you realize that, your realize the delay really isn't personal defiance at all. (Personal defiance usually comes with "Nooo" and crying or running away. And even that's not so personal as much as the desire to keep something.) These days I find it fun and rewarding to watch those wheels turning in her brain. But if I don't wait, there's no way she can show me that she's capable of following directions and is willing to cooperate. But we're talking about a 16-18 month here...not a 12 month old. So once again, repeat your directives, but give your son a few months more to act on them. When they start to do this, it's a little miracle, and I'd hate for you to miss it.

*Take advantage of a twelve month old's ablitly to be redirected. You can still substitued pencils for fat, washable crayons, for example.* Over time, you'll see it's harder to redirect, so then allow him to _sit_ and examine certain dangerous things, as opposed to walk with them, while you stand near by. I'm constantly making decisions to let my DD explore things (like the baby nail clipper) that previously I NEVER thought I'd be okay with. It's a matter of weighing the odds and considering how bad an injury might be if the worst scenerio happened. Yesterday I watched dd take apart something that had batteries, and then put it back together again, and remove a screw from within and without a wall. IPrevously, those both would have been no, no's in my book. (She's mechanically inclined.) But this time I just kept an eye on her. (DD and I are bonded at the hip, for these reasons.) It's a little scary, but knowing your child and how rambunctious she or he is or is not, really helps. I also let her use a very tiny screw driver a few days ago to put a screw in. (She has toy versions of tools, so I was surprised she knew what to do even though the size was dramatically smaller.) I don't like to stop her from exploring and using the skills she has. Accomodating my point of view simply means strong supervision, or buying her toys that simulate what I'm doing.

*Otherwise, my mother raised me GD and she was an awful mother.* My step-mother was just flat-out abusive and left scars on my body from beatings, but she was educational. My grandmother had some natural GD inclinations, but if things got bad she'd spank me with a floppy slipper, crying all the time that she had to do this because she loved me. *Frankly, my grandmother is the best influence I've ever had in my life.* Sure she spanked on occasion, but genuine love, concern and rsponsivness to who I was as a person, made all the difference. (Plus modeling a good life helped too.) It takes more than GD to make a good mother, just like it takes more that beating the devil out of your with an extension cord to make an obedient child. Love and compassion for children needs to be the foundation. Then it takes watchful care, concern, and reacting and tailoring your parenting to the child you have first, not to some ideas your fell in love with first, as my mother did. There are a lot of good ideas out there, but if they don't make your son feel cared for, understood, and if they don't fufill his needs-- then no matter how "right" they feel to you, they are wrong for your son. Some types of GD parenting can just make a kid feel like parents don't care, and that's just my opinion. One of those needs that a lot of kids have is one for discipline, instruction and boundries. It helps a lot of kids feel safe because they know their parents are watching out for them (not hounded because thier parents are scrutinizing them.) It helps them to be able to make sense of their world, and to know where certain limits are. (I had a college friend who was also GD'd. She recently wrote a thank you letter to members of our college staff for giving her the direction her artists parents never gave her.) When we remove spanking, it's important not to leave a vacuum of no instruction and direction and limits at all. If you keep your eye on who your son is as an individual, you'll find you can find plenty of GD ways to handle problems without resorting to spankings. If you ask me-- I'd say MEET his needs (which are not always wants) first, and you'll do pretty darn well.

Faith
(Who recommends ScreamFree parenting for your DH. Not to permissive at all, but helps one learn how not to not take so much of a child's behavior personally, and how not to get one's buttons pushed too much by normal childhood behavior....or anyone's behavior for that matter. )


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## MillingNome (Nov 18, 2005)

I think the only thing that will work is an individual basis. All change starts small with baby steps leading up to it.

And as to a pp, gentle discipline is not no discipline. I am sure the college profs did not hit her to give her direction nor did she come to them as a blank slate.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

I can't speak to the cultural aspect, but I do think "breaking the cycle" is so hard. I was spanked and yelled at a lot, and while it's not what I'd call violent, it wasn't what I'd call self-esteem-inducing either. I think identifying that your upbringing will affect you and asserting that you want to stop the cycle is an important step. But I still think that's the easy part. In my experience so far it's a constant effort and involves a lot of self-reflection. At one or two it wasn't so hard, but when I'm stressed and under pressure, as I am more now with a 3yo and another baby, those ingrained behaviors are more likely to come up. It just requires a lot of mindfulness.

Also I think there were good points here- at that age I don't think they're even capable of having those "naughty" intentions! I think redirection and babyproofing is the biggest thing at this age.


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## ebony (Feb 23, 2002)

Oh boy! I'm AA and I do NOT spank my son. He is 9 yrs old. I grew up in a family where I was spanked and so was everyone in my neighborhood.

One day my son was disrespectful in his speech toward my mom. My sister, who has a 6 mo old, told my son that when her son does something wrong like that when he gets older she is "going to knock him out so he won't act that way." Now, let me just say that my son unfortunately has his father's temperment. He can get worked up quickly and as a result I put him in anger management for 6 months. In addition, he's very athletic so I put him a number of sports and I'm happy to say that there have been no physical outbursts in a very long time. I would also like to say that in 17 months my son moved out of his father's home and into mine and then we moved in with my parents, in another state. So, this child left his dad's home where he had been since birth and attended THREE schools in that time period due to the instability. So, obviously, this child was going to have some issues develop. When he began to act out, for some reason, everyone in the family thought that beating him was the answer but I knew better. Several times I tried to explain to them that beating him would not changed the fact that he doesn't see his dad anymore, or his sister, or his cousins, or his old friends and has been to 3 schools in a year and a half! Considering all of that, I'm surprised the child didn't go completely crazy!







: Furthermore, it made absolutely no sense to me to tell my son to be nonviolent and then turn around and hit him. Additionally, there are statistics that show that this is the age when black boys start to decline without proper care, especially when there is no father/positive male presence (some of this is debatable, but there is evidence to suppor this).

My son recently completed 3rd grade, in a predominately white school where there were some racial issues, with straight As and is a stellar athlete. His teacher sent home three notes saying what a wonderful young man he is. This is the child I homebirthed, nursed for 2 1/2 years and with whom I co-slept so a lot of it was just having faith that all the nurturing and bonding would come into play and help heal him. When my son had a bully issue, I didn't even know about it because he didn't want ME to worry so he told his grandma that he was afraid to go to school. This is the boy who rubs my mom's back when she has back pain and who put warm compresses on my head when I wasn't feeling well. He likes to change my nephew's diapers and is always trying to be of help with him. He's always asking about everyone's well being. And none of this compassionate behavior is the result of spanking. It's almost as if my family wants to give me absolutely no credit that he came thru this phase so beautifully without me hitting him. Of course there are always times when he is going to misbehave, that's what children do. But I think they hate that I'm taking care of him gently and proving them wrong.

When people say, "Look at how well you turned out and you were spanked" I have to remind them that I turned out well IN SPITE of most things I experienced in childhood, not BECAUSE of them!







: I also remind them that most kids in the neighborhood are NOT productive citizens and are not doing much with their lives and they were all hit so now what? I have several times requested research showing that spanked children have better lives as adults and no one has been able to produce it.

Here's the deal, you have to _*be*_ a strong personality. I have disagreed with my family on almost every issue since my own birth. When I was 12 years old, I used to get into arguments with my grandmother about Malcolm X







. You know they all thought I was crazy for having a homebirth







. Mostly, they don't bother to say anything to my face anymore because they know their opinion is irrelevant. I know that I study and research and they don't. I have NEVER asked anyone in my family for parenting advice because I haven't been impressed with the job that any of them have done. I have always known that I am intelligent. I have always, always believed in the power of my intuition, to do what is right for my son, just like I believed in the power of my body to give birth to him.

In addition, as another mom mentioned, there is the police issue, with is very serious. I'm a former public defender in NYC and I can tell you that being (1)black and (2) male provides probable cause for cops to harass and arrest young black boys and men. I'm afraid for my son, I really am. It's crucial that black boys especially understand how to interact when approached by a cop and if they are angry with cops, it can be the beginning of disaster.

My goal is to raise an intelligent, compassionate, thinking being. So far, I am proud of the boy that he is and the man he is becoming


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## crescentaluna (Apr 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy*
See the best of intentions in everything your ds does, and I can just about promise that you will be correct.

Just wanted to say ITA! There is so much truth in this, and it helps me so much to remember it continuously!

And thank you too, Ebony - you are so right that we must be strong personalitites. We'd be fierce mama bears to any stranger who tried to hurt our little loved ones, right? ... why be any less protective when it's family undermining what our babies need.


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## mamacatsbaby (Jul 27, 2005)

What great posts, not really much I can add that hasn't been said already!









I'm a black woman and in our family we were spanked as well. I always knew my mama loved us more than anything and we her but getting hit made both her and us feel terrible.

I remember having a conversation with my mama once and she was saying how she didn't really want to hit us but that was the way they had been taught to do things in her day.







It's aweful. Some of the stories she's told of how they were disciplined back in the day is way beyond child abuse.









My DS is about to be 11 weeks old







and I will definitely not be hitting him or any future kiddos. I've always been the so called "hippie"







in my family and there's so many things we but heads on. I have to leave the room and have been in tears if my niece gets spanked in my presence. My sissy, who I love to pieces, and I have talked about it and she feels that this is the way it should be done.









I'm sure that the thought will cross my mind when the challenges come as hitting's what I've seen. However I'm really confident in my heart of hearts that I will choose to refrain from hitting.

Anyway, trust your instincts mama!


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:

DH: What if dd has a pair of scissors and is about to put it into a socket?
Me: Take the scissors from her and tell her No.
DH: Are you serious? (as if I was crazy).
I know this was theoretical but if it comes up again, here's what we did about sockets, fwiw. We found the regular plug covers that pop into the socket and one's that cover plugs that remain plugged in. We found them at a Lowe's, but I bet most hardware stores carry them. They were inexpensive and easy to install. Then the toddler doesn't have access to the dangerous electrical sockets at all. There is a way to keep toddlers safe in probably just about every situation with a bit of creativity and problem-solving.


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissRubyandKen*
I know this was theoretical but if it comes up again, here's what we did about sockets, fwiw. We found the regular plug covers that pop into the socket and one's that cover plugs that remain plugged in. We found them at a Lowe's, but I bet most hardware stores carry them. They were inexpensive and easy to install. Then the toddler doesn't have access to the dangerous electrical sockets at all. There is a way to keep toddlers safe in probably just about every situation with a bit of creativity and problem-solving.

Um. Yeah. He pulls those right out of the socket and goes staggering around "telling" everbody what he did and showing people the plastic plug.














: So, so far, those havn't worked for us. But he doesn't seem interested in the plugs anyway, so it's not too much of a problem.

Edit:
Oh, waitaminute! I just realized you were talking about a different kind. Keeps things already plugged in covered up, eh? I think I'll go to lowes and check them out. Thanks!


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

I don't think this issue is exclusively African American.

Saying this to dissuade anyone from thinking that GD commentary is racist.

I saw this in my own Irish Catholic background.

A lot of slaps upside the head and a lot of beatings with the belt, it was very common in the day.

My Uncle Fred and mom told stories of their cousin's dad's cat-o-nine tails (and how they hid the damned thing but nailing it under the underside of the basement stairs and the dad never did find it.









It may be the culture of oppressed people, if you're oppressed or discriminated=against (as both IA and AA were,) there's a tendency to expect obedience and be conditioned to take orders rather than to think for yourself and question orders (because you were in a more priviliged class and you would, it is assumed, someday be in a leadership position.)

I think of a lof of the Catholic school horror stories.

Hope I'm not being obnoxious with this.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DebraBaker*
It may be the culture of oppressed people, if you're oppressed or discriminated=against (as both IA and AA were,) there's a tendency to expect obedience and be conditioned to take orders rather than to think for yourself and question orders (because you were in a more priviliged class and you would, it is assumed, someday be in a leadership position.)

I think of a lof of the Catholic school horror stories.

Hope I'm not being obnoxious with this.









: I would agree with you, I have done some reading of texts used in working class studies and there are a lot of similiarities that exist between oppressed folks whether they are AA or not.

Shay


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## Kylix (May 3, 2002)

I'm AA and do not have any kids yet. But I am DETERMINED to break the cycle in my family too. I do not know of any family members that do not spank or pop. And most go much further than that--using belts etc.

I think it is so important that those of us that believe in GD stand our ground firmly so that the next generation can look to someone and say "see, she did it and so I can too". Even Oprah said "when you know better, you do better".

I think the more experienced mamas here are giving you good advice about the specific behaviors you are struggling with so I will leave my piece at that.

Oh, except to say that there is a mothers of color tribe on FYT. I don't post on it often but I believe it still exists and would be a great tribe for you to touch in on if you would like to have a community of like-minded individuals of similar backgrounds.

Kylix


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

I had a chat with my husband. I can't get him to come to an agreement with me not to hit our son. We came to the decision that we would not "pop" him right now because he is too young to know any better, and that we need to better baby proof the house and learn what to do to keep him out of stuff and work around stuff, and to also have a series of similar things that he CAN have to play with. (He already has his own pantry with his things in it, an empty pantry drawer that we didn't need, but he doesn't never pay any attention to it, he'd rather have the other ones...)

But he still is adamant that if necessary, he will whip our child when he is older if he really needs it.

He keeps using comments like "you say you dont want to discipline until he's older"...and "We can't not discipline" etc etc etc.
I had to forcefully remind him over and over again that I never said no discipline, and that no hitting does not mean no discipline.

He keeps bringing up 2 occassions that he was spanked and he felt he deserved it. Once was when he got a spank brand new bike, and his dad told him not to do wheeleys (or maybe it was something else like that) because it would break. He did them anyway and broke it the same day that his dad bought it for him. He got a really bad beating for it.

Also another example about how his mom parked the car on a heel to run into the house to get something, and it was a stick shift, and she told him not to touch anything. He was 7, and he touched it anyway, and the car rolled backwards and hit somebody else's car and they had to pay for it. That day, his mom switched him with a switch with sticker briers (or thorns if u don't speak southern) on it.














:





















: uke (Add that to the list of reasons why I hate that woman.)

My husband's dad beat him with 2x4's, extention cords, and other things and lost custody of his kids because of the abuse. He thinks that after his parents divorced, and his mom stopped spanking, that's why his 2 younger brothers ended up to be the no-account knuckleheads that they are today, and that they would be better if they had been spanked.

I told him that I was spanked by my mother as a child, and that I we both know that I had a history of hitting out of anger, and I think it was because my mother hit me out of anger. He said that I can't "simplify that like that". And pointed out that he's never hit anybody and he was abused.

I'm not exactly sure what to say to him at this point. At least we came to the decision that he was not going to pop him no time soon.

I'm not a good person to argue this point with him. I don't know anything about gentle discipline. Everybody I know was spanked. My best girl friends, everybody. And I do remember those few children that I know that weren't spanked who were absolute bats out of hell. But looking back, now I know that was not because they werent' spanked, but rather because they weren't disciplined at all. He keeps using that as an example, kids who werent' spanked. I don't know what else to say to him. I know it's wrong, but it is a relatively new and foreign concept to me, and I don't know what to say back.


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## Twilight (Jun 9, 2005)

The earliest agreement my DH and I came to was that we wouldn't spank DD unless we tried everything else first and nothing worked. before I knew much about GD, our original agreement was that we would spank if she was in danger of seriously hurting herself or someone else, but not if she was just acting bratty. I just told him I felt strongly that acting up wasn't a reason to spank, and he went along with that.

From that original understanding we started to learn that there were effective ways to discipline that didn't involve spanking, so we never had to invoke the "if nothing else works" agreement. There is always something else that works.

The other thing that we both realized over time (and I think you see this in yourself too!) is that we both have tempers... and if we give ourselves "permission" to hit our daughter, we'll end up doing it when we lose control of our tempers and that would be really, really bad. We just can't afford to let ourselves do it. I don't know - there may be some people who can spank without completely losing it on their kids, but I don't think we're that kind of people. I'm glad we know this.

I don't know how it happened, but now neither one of us can deal with the idea of spanking our child... we don't see a reason we would ever do it. It was a really gradual conversion but now we are both very committed to GD.

So I guess what I'm saying is you don't need your husband to agree to the whole package now... maybe see if you can get him to agree to a "trial run" of no spanking just until your baby is 18 months old... and then extend it to 2 years...







and see where it goes from there.


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## radhika (May 5, 2005)

Along the lines of Twilight's post --

Your own instincts are to practice GD. With the help of books/forums/ etc. I am sure you will find GD responses to practically all situations. In my own case I have found the same thing - I have a temper, but have never given myself "permission" to lose it. So that forces me to think creatively, using GD principles that I have garnered from these resources.

GD is a practice more than anything else, i.e. an ongoing process where I am learning how to negotiate situations that keep arising. By practicing it you can demonstrate to your DH over time that every situation has a valid non-violent response from which the learning (for DS) is, if anything, more logical and therefore, stronger.... For instance, your DH himself learned a lesson when his knew bike broke. Adding further pain to that situation didn't help anything.

By demonstrating over time that there are myriad non-spanking responses that work, you are making a much stronger case than just arguing a-priori about it. I am sure you can do it!

Meanwhile, there are several books (and even MDC) that have arguments and anti-spanking resources. Perhaps you could show your DH to those, or just summarize the points for him?


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

To everyone doing the difficult work of breaking generational cycles.


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## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

gabysmom-

First I wanted to say I was whipped with a belt as a kid, and my dp was abused in more ways than one. Dp also thinks spanking is *neccessary* and I hear about it often enough, though much less than before. I have to be honest and say I told him the truth, that my love and respect for him as a person would diminish if he hit our children and our relationship would be over. I'm not suggesting you do this, just sharing. I am sure dp feels the occasional resentment at my saying that and completely taking spanking away as an option, BUT those fleeting moments have saved our life together as a family.
I agree with pp that you really don't need for him to outright agree with you now. You can check some gd books out from the library and hang out here to learn. If your dh will read some too, great! Better he sees the wisdom of gd on his own anyhow. And he will see how you handle yourself with your son and learn from that too. Sometmes it feels like an impossible world we live in, yk? How can people not recognize that violence against children is WRONG


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## mamacatsbaby (Jul 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MissRubyandKen*
Sometmes it feels like an impossible world we live in, yk? How can people not recognize that violence against children is WRONG


























Also, what about all the people, especially AA boys, who have ended up in juvie, prison or worse that *were* hit, a lot, and badly, supposedly for their own good so that they would not go down this road?

Also, when I was reading the link to the other thread about AA and GD someone posted earlier in this thread I came across how we need to teach our children how to straighten up and be respectful real quick when confronted by cops, etc. Also how slaves probably hit their kids in part for the children's safety. I think that may have been part of it. But I also think that b/c the adults were being beaten, part of that anger for their oppressors was taken out on their children. I think that we can teach our children how to act with authority figures that could bring harm to them real quick without hitting them.

DebraBaker, I agree with you that this is not a solely AA issue.







I think the OP was just coming from the AA POV b/c this is our culture and hitting is so prevalent in AA life. At least that's what I was getting. If I'm wrong OP lemme know!


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamacatsbaby*
DebraBaker, I agree with you that this is not a solely AA issue.







I think the OP was just coming from the AA POV b/c this is our culture and hitting is so prevalent in AA life. At least that's what I was getting. If I'm wrong OP lemme know!









Yeah, I just was talking about AA because it's what I'm familiar with it. But, I do appreciate it being brought to my attention that this tends to be the practice amongst oppressed people regardless of race. It's something that I never even thought about before or realized. I am always open to learning.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

I bring up my pov for two reasons,

One, I think the problem is broad and encompases, in general, oppressed people.

Two, I didn't want people to think there was something inherently flawed in AA culture that is the cause of this behavior. Rather, it is a symptom of oppression and AA culture has managed to survive and be strong in spite of this, and that AA families have remained loving in spite of this.

Additionally, as the institutionalized oppression and white privilege is addressed, and the social enviornment in which many in the AA community find themselves is eased, the hard work of breaking genrational familial cycles will be much easier to achieve.

Debra Baker


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## SneakyPie (Jan 13, 2002)

I send you and your husband so much love and support while you work on this. You're brave and gorgeous for standing up for your tiny son, and your courage will be rewarded!

I started thinking about this stuff recently when I saw the comedian Carlos Mencia do a piece about cultural differences in disciplining kids. What he said was basically, White people, your kids act like brats and it's because you never hit them! "I got smacked -- I turned out fine!" And he was bragging that he had almost convinced his wife that it would be OK to "beat" their future kids. There was even a little kid performing some of this stuff with him. Sure, I know it's just a comedy act, that he'll say anything at all just to get people to look at him, but it turned my stomach and made me sympathize with anybody facing that kind of pressure to hit kids. It's that old defensiveness -- that if it's wrong to hit kids, then anybody who ever hit kids or got hit in the past has to chime in defensively, as if it had anything to do with them!


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## annarosa (Aug 30, 2004)

it seems from your posts that you are motivated to break the cycle and that really is the most important thing - cos you are his mamma and it is YOU who decides how he is raised - not the people around you
anyways, for some time you can start to put GD ideas into practice and no one else needs to know except you - I think the big problem you have is convincing your dh about trying some new approaches
there is loads of advice on this forum if you have the time to read back on previous threads ...........


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