# What would you say....



## mama*pisces (Feb 17, 2008)

if a neighbor that you just started hanging out with told you that she spanks her 11 month old, "_20 times a day_"?!?!?

We have a playground right behind our townhouse, and of course I am out there with 2 yo ds at least once a day, so I've gotten to talking with a few of the moms around here, and dh has also become friends with this one particular dad. Two nights ago we are hanging out with them and another couple from a few doors down, parents of a 2 and a half year old and a 3 month old. This mama tells me, proudly even, that she lets her infant CIO at night, shuts the door to her room, and turns her fan on to block out her cries.














I thought my heart would break. There was a short pause when she said it, she looked at me, and feeling at a total loss for words, I said: "I can't do that." and she said: "I can!" and then the conversation changed to something else(I have also seen her spank her two year old for running too close to the street....sad, but to me, possibly forgivable in this instance because it was a situation where the daughter could have really been hurt).

I came home and vented to dh, and he said: "Oh, you're judging people and you think that your way is the only way, and you shouldn't do that. Let people live their lives." I really really really try not to judge. I believe in my heart that each soul has to walk it's own path. But uggghhhh, I just can't wrap my head around letting a tiny helpless baby cry herself to sleep for however long it takes every night. Not to mention that when she told me this, she was across the street from her house where her baby was sleeping, with no monitor. Meanwhile we are also across the street from our house, with our monitor for my two year old sitting on top of our neighbor's car, with me checking it every 20 minutes to make sure it hadn't stopped working or something. (lol) If anyone should have been nonchalant, you would think it would have been me, not someone with a newborn.

Then tonight, we are hanging out with them again(why, i'm not sure, since I left our last hanging out session pretty bothered), the other mom, who has only an 11 month old, tells me that she "pops him hard" at least 20 times a day!!















And me, not knowing what to say again, said: "But he's so little..." and she said, yeah, and if he doesn't learn now, he's going to be hell when he's two."

WTH is wrong with people? I am just so sad, disillusioned, and angry right now. I know that I can't "save the world", though I would really really like to, and that there are times when I really do have to let people just live their own lives and go on with my own. But my heart breaks for these babies. I can't just shrug it off and be ok with it. Part of me wants to cut all ties with them(which would be kinda uncomfortable at the moment since we live very close to eachother and see eachother every day, and now dh is starting to be friends with them too), but another part of me wants to try to educate them...but how do I do that without offending? What would you say?

I'm thinking....I think it might be better to do this as we're moving out of here(so that dh might not catch wind of it and kill me), but I have two copies of "Plain talk about spanking", which were sent to me by the people from Nospank.net(I think that's the website), and I can think of no two better people to give those to right now. And if they don't talk to me again, hey, no big loss on my part. But at least it would create an oppurtunity for them to open their eyes a little.

I wish I didn't care so much.


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## mama*pisces (Feb 17, 2008)

I can't believe that there have been 26 views to this thread and nobody has any thoughts on this. Yeesh. I'm starting to feel really not welcome in this forum.


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## schellie (Oct 24, 2005)

I was in a similar situation. So I just have been showing him how he should act towards his son. The DS is 4, and they dont communicate AT ALL in times when their is a squabble. I am just trying to show him better ways by example. I also have thought of sending/giving him a book to read.


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## New_Natural_Mom (Dec 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama*pisces* 
I can't believe that there have been 26 views to this thread and nobody has any thoughts on this. Yeesh. I'm starting to feel really not welcome in this forum.


Sorry, no advice just







.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama*pisces* 
I can't believe that there have been 26 views to this thread and nobody has any thoughts on this. Yeesh. I'm starting to feel really not welcome in this forum.

that's a bit of an overreaction I think. Sometimes there's just nothing to say. Plus your subject line doesn't tell anything about your issue. So 26 people could have opened it to figure out what your question was. And then realized they didn't know the answer.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Ok, I just somehow clicked something and completely lost this page and my half-typed up response- I guess that was another view without comment? Ugh.

I don't know if you really CAN say anything- I mean, how would you feel if the tables were turned, and they sent you information about spanking and CIO and implied that you're neglecting your children for "not showing them who's boss"? I just really doubt they'd pay attention to anything you sent them.

OTOH, maybe they honestly don't know how else to discipline children and a pamphlet like this could be an eye-opener. Or maybe they wouldn't even consider the information inside and all the pamphlets would do is ruin your relationship with these women. Then again, that may not be such a loss anyway. I doubt I could be friends with people who treated their children this way, at least not while their children were still little and still being subjected to this kind of treatment. It's not quite the same when the kids are all preteens and teens- nobody really asks whether or not anybody was breastfed, what sleeping arrangements used to be, etc.


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## mama*pisces (Feb 17, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *D_McG* 
that's a bit of an overreaction I think. Sometimes there's just nothing to say. Plus your subject line doesn't tell anything about your issue. So 26 people could have opened it to figure out what your question was. And then realized they didn't know the answer.

Well, it's just that this is the third time I have posted something in here and have gotten little to no response(at first).


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## mama*pisces (Feb 17, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
Ok, I just somehow clicked something and completely lost this page and my half-typed up response- I guess that was another view without comment? Ugh.

I don't know if you really CAN say anything- I mean, how would you feel if the tables were turned, and they sent you information about spanking and CIO and implied that you're neglecting your children for "not showing them who's boss"? I just really doubt they'd pay attention to anything you sent them.

OTOH, maybe they honestly don't know how else to discipline children and a pamphlet like this could be an eye-opener. Or maybe they wouldn't even consider the information inside and all the pamphlets would do is ruin your relationship with these women. Then again, that may not be such a loss anyway. I doubt I could be friends with people who treated their children this way, at least not while their children were still little and still being subjected to this kind of treatment. It's not quite the same when the kids are all preteens and teens- nobody really asks whether or not anybody was breastfed, what sleeping arrangements used to be, etc.


Thanks Ruthla. I guess if the tables were turned I wouldn't appreciate it very much. And it doesn't seem to me like their minds are the least bit open to trying other alternatives. They definitely don't have an "I hate doing it, but I just don't know what else to do" kind of attitude. I guess my only choice is to limit my time with them so I don't end up saying something "out of place".


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## WinterStar (Apr 2, 2007)

I didn't reply because I couldn't think of anything useful to say. I'm sure I'm not the only one. That's not personal, just being a bit useless I guess!

It's very, very hard when you live so close to people who are behaving like that. My instinct is to just steer well clear, I wouldn't want my child mixing with children who are treated so harshly, especially at such a young age.

It's not always possible I know, so the second best is to stay very close to your child and try to minimise any negative influences.

As for saving the world, my best hope for that is that I raise my children better than I was raised, and they raise their children even better again.....and step by step the world improves.

Sadly it's very hard to comment on other peoples' parenting choices, even when you have really strong connections with them it has to be handled very delicately. I'm no good at it at all, my bestfriend and I have stopped talking about our parenting choices, even though we are not SO far apart. Modelling what *you* do does help, they do see it, and do think about it, even if it doesn't always appear that they do.

But yes, a book in their postboxes on your leaving day, why not?!


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## SkyMomma (Jul 13, 2006)

As I was reading your post my heart was breaking too... I don't really have an answer. I'm still figuring out the no-judgement thing. I'm not sure that not being judgemental is always the right thing...too many cases of domestic violence, sexual abuse, etc., that perpetuated because neighbors didn't want to get involved or felt that it was none of their business. OTOH, I have been on the receiving end of lots of negative judgements & little comments from family & strangers about my parenting choices. In particular, extended breastfeeding (until 3 1/2), family bed (until 3), homeschooling, no TV & long hair on a boy, seem to trigger people's shocked responses. Sometimes this evolves into an opportunity for education, when I'm asked how or why, but that's pretty unusual. Having been on the receiving end of this a bit, I do feel like there is too much mama guilt & pressure out there (although I have to say--and this may anger other mamas out there--that I look forward to the day when being seen giving your baby a bottle in public is considered shameful & nursing in public gets the cute little coos & smiles from passerbys. I look forward to the day when baby blankets are covered with pictures of breasts & not bottles).

I don't really know how I would respond in your situation. I think that letting other moms know that you do things differently, that there is another way, is important. CIO & spanking are still so much a part of american cultural norms, that lots of moms aren't regularly exposed to another way of parenting. A few months ago, I overheard a yoga student of mine talking to another about their young babies (under 6 months). The first was saying how she left her infant with her mother for a weekend, the second responded "I know I really need to start seperating from my baby, but I just can't..." The first began to encourage her to leave the baby overnight, with lots of "they need to learn to be independant", etc. I gently inserted myself in the conversation & just pointed out to the second mom that there was nothing wrong with her needing to be with her baby, & that she didn't need to push that if she felt comfortable with how things were.

I think there is a ton of societal pressure to push independance (CIO) & authoritarian discipline, for "good of the children". I think any small thing we do to show that there are other ways to parent is a good thing. If you feel invested in conversation with your neighbors, I might ask them why they do things the way they do. Perhaps then explain why you do things differently. Or just give them the book. Whatever you feel comfortable with. Personally, I would find myself avoiding being around them--it would just feel too upsetting. Maybe take some solace in knowing that by being in the nighborhood you're showing a different path, perhaps some of it will seep in.


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## Bromache (Jan 24, 2008)

I don't really have anything useful to say, but I know how it feels to not have responses, too, so I'm responding!

That is really awful, and it must be so hard to be around them. CIO, while to me a horrible thing, is not quite as bad as the 20 "pops" a day to an eleven month old. Yikes. Not sure if I could be around these people, but it's so hard when you're going to keep seeing them at the playground and such to not be friendly. On the other hand, it's also soooo difficult not to judge when we hear about these things that are, at least to us, abusive.









I'm in a similar, though not so extreme, situation right now and I don't know how to handle it either. Our closest friends will slap their 20 mo's hands and they yell at her a LOT, netiher of which I agree with at all. (Not to mention we can see that it already has no effect on her anyway.) And my other friend just started CIO with her 8 mo to get him to sleep at night. Like you, I say "I couldn't do that", but I'm not really sure what more I can say or do without causing problems. However, if the first parents get even worse with their "punishments", I think we'll have to not be friends with them anymore. It stinks because we're a military family and very far away from our families and old friends, and these are our only friends here, but I don't want my son exposed to violence...

Anyway, I guess all I can say is what I tell myself -- if it bothers you too much and you think it may be harming YOUR child to be around these people, you'll just have to go your separate ways. As for educating them to other methods and ways, I don't know how helpful that would be. It sure sounds like the CIO mom believed she was doing the right thing, and that's hard to argue against. Personally, I will keep making tiny comments here and there and try to model my own way of parenting when I'm around them and hope some of it rubs off.

Good luck to you, whatever you decide.


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## OGirlieMama (Aug 6, 2006)

I actually would not worry about offending a person who told me they spank their 11 month old at all, let alone "hard and often." I would (in the most polite, educational tone I could manage) tell them why spanking is wrong, and if they were pissed-off at me, I'd probably ask if they were going to spank me, too.


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## jjawm (Jun 17, 2007)

One time a waitress was telling me how she spanks her young child. I told her that I found that spanking was definatlely not effective (my dd has never been spanked, but my stepsons were by their father) and made them so angry, and that with our daughter we used babygates instead (keeping her out of the kitchen when she was not being safe).


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## LionessMom (Mar 12, 2008)

i would have looked at her with a horrified look on my face and said. "oh my god, you ACTUALLY HIT your BABY!?!". or "oh my god, you actually let her CRY?!? you know they say you aren't supposed to do that anymore, it's bad for them."

the shocked and horrified look is the key part. that might make them think that it is not normal and maybe even mean. jmho


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## llamalluv (Aug 24, 2007)

I think the answer to your question "What is wrong with people?" is just that they don't know any better. If I had started having children 10 years ago, I would have spanked and not had a second thought. Or even just 5 years ago. But I've had enough time to watch other people and learn from their experiences and examples (both positive and negative) and to really mature as a person.

My logic used to be that I was spanked and turned out okay. But looking at my two middle sisters, I realize that I turned out well IN SPITE of my upbringing, not because of it.


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## Tuesday (Mar 3, 2003)

I agree with OGirlieMama regarding the spanking of an 11 month old. Wow. I'd say my opinion quite clearly to this person.

I've actually not encountered any people who openly talk about spanking their kids. If I did, in a play area such as yours, I'd probably say something - mentioning other solutions, asking why they spanked, etc etc etc. If it made me feel uncomfortable, I'd avoid these people. I can't imagine getting much enjoyment hanging with a mom who likes to wallop her 11 month old child! (And neither can you!







)

In terms of feeling like, "what is wrong with people?" . This sort of emotion can be experienced all the time - I mean the world is filled with a lot of negative things and people. Sometimes I just try to turn it around and try to educate and help the person see a more positive solution and just really hope that they get some sort of enlightenment to help them. Some parents come from an entirely different background with different experiences so unless they see someone modelling different solutions and providing positive solutions, they will continue with the spanking.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

CIO stories always get to my heart.







I hate the method, especially when presented by a mom in the way you mention. I probably would have said something really snarky and mean without thinking.

I'm not so sure about the spanking comment though. What exactly does she mean by "pop him hard?" I've seen parents smack/spank their kids and cracked a smile over how wimpy it is. Yet the parents think they are being hard on the kid. Also, I've seen some kids who get a hard spanking and then run off laughing, or stand there and antagonize their parents. (Particularly recall a 6yo neighbor kid who got a full out spanking in public and stood there laughing "haha, that didn't hurt! Try again!" Needless to say, I felt a bit of sympathy for the dad and not the kid.)


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

The only time I've been around a parent (a relative of mine that we were visiting) who was going to CIO, I said "you know what that does don't you? When she cries like that it floods her little system with cortisol and makes her more sensitive to stress. So when she's an adult she's more likely to get stress related diseases and depression". The father had been laying with his DD for about an hour trying to get her to nap, and had just left the room. He replied that she needs a nap. And told him that I never tried to make my DD sleep and she sleeps fine now. He had seen how easily my 2.5 year old DD went to sleep each night around 10. The father went and got his DD out of bed. The LO was about 15 months old and getting teeth in at the time.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

I think the reason why you got little response initially is because of course there is nothing you can do about this and it probably isn't particularly productive to wag your finger about how other people you have no control over choose to behave.

My suggestion would be to focus your energies on things you can control and on people you can influence. If you feel you have influence then by all means feel free to proselytize about gentle discipline, but it sounds like you don't think it would make a difference.

If my child spent a lot of time fussing over how other kids weren't behaving well, I'd tell him that he should instead focus on his own behavior and taking responsibility for himself. The same applies here. (the only exception would be if there is something that is abusive in which case you have the moral obligation to report it).


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## Kelly Jene (Jun 8, 2008)

I will admit that until the last 4 years I had no idea about GD. I was raised being spanked and told that CIO and spanking is just how you do things. Maybe you can start some conversations about GD or even invite them to come to this site. It's all in the education. These women love their kids and think they are doing the best for them ... _that they know of._ Maybe if you introduce new thoughts they will start to consider new ways of parenting.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

i strongly believe that people are put in our path for a reason. i also think if someone feels comfortable enough telling me that they hit their kids 20 times a day, etc. that i should welcome the opportunity to talk to them in a non-judgmental way about discipline (i say non judging because you won't make a dent in their veiwpoint otherwise). most people don't really "get" that discipline does not have to involve physical punishment. sad but true. i think it's o.k. to challenge someone who hurts their children. you won't win people over all of the time, but if you embrace your friends and talk to them in love - often people will open up even more to you and they WILL respond to what you share.

i think a book is a great gift, don't you??


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## leelee2 (May 18, 2006)

it's really hard to know what to say to people like that, especially when caught off guard.
I think I would have to say something and I would want it to be effective. Maybe something like, "Oh, you have to read this book. I was so thankful that a friend shared this with me when I was pregnant. It really opened my eyes" I don't know, then maybe you could share books, if she has email, send her articles.....tell her about MDC.
It truly breaks my heart to know that babies and children are treated this way.
good luck with all of it.

lisa


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

Honestly, I would say, "SEE YA."

I have an 11-month-old and cannot.even.imagine.


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## verde (Feb 11, 2007)

mamapisces, I read your thread and I'm having a little freakout moment. My evil grandparents used to spank babies. They continued on to beat their children and it never stopped. I've heard these stories my whole life from my mother and all my aunts and uncles. When I read about people spanking babies I have a terrible visceral response and as far as I'm concerned they are evil

EVIL! EVIL! EVIL!

I can't think straight when I read about stuff like this because if this woman is hitting a baby can you imagine what she'll do when the baby becomes a toddler??????

See, if this was me I'd probably just lose it and start telling her about my evil grandparents and how she's is sooooo screwing up her child and turning that child into a future therapy patient and ..... and.... and...

I'll have to get back to you.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Are you and the other moms the same age? Now that I have three kids, I often play the "older, wiser" card, but try to be polite about it.

Maybe you could refer her to an expert? There are SO many that are anti-spanking. Maybe somebody like Dr. Phil?

Another thing might be to express concern for HER. You could ask her if she were depressed or needed help with anything, and then mention that you were so alarmed that she was feeling so angry that she hit her baby so much or something. Maybe she'd realize that what she is doing is really appalling.


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## sunflowerkelli (Sep 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizawill* 
i strongly believe that people are put in our path for a reason...

i think a book is a great gift, don't you??









Me too! I also I wish I had a ton of money *just* for buying books to be able to hand out to complete strangers when I saw them doing something they needed guidance with.


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## sunflowerkelli (Sep 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
Are you and the other moms the same age? Now that I have three kids, I often play the "older, wiser" card, but try to be polite about it.

Be careful with this one, I am a young mom and hate when older moms tell me things _just because_ they're older.


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## sunflowerkelli (Sep 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OGirlieMama* 
I actually would not worry about offending a person who told me they spank their 11 month old at all, let alone "hard and often." I would (in the most polite, educational tone I could manage) tell them why spanking is wrong, and if they were pissed-off at me, *I'd probably ask if they were going to spank me, too.*


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## sunflowerkelli (Sep 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *llamalluv* 
My logic used to be that I was spanked and turned out okay. But looking at my two middle sisters, I realize that *I turned out well IN SPITE of my upbringing, not because of it.*

Genius.


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## twead (Apr 23, 2007)

I would just say we don't spank because how can you teach a child not to hit when you hit them. As for CIO, I read about how CIO babies don't grow as well. They spend their energy crying and being upset instead of growing mentally and physically. I guess I'm not to concerned if people are offended by my views. I'm a bit older and I read a ton. This may be my only kids so I want to do the best I can. If those little tidbits offend then, I don't really need those people as friends.


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## GradysMom (Jan 7, 2007)

I say speak up as much as you can... hand out articles about the scientific fact that cio is harmful, that spanking and stress are very harmful. You don't need these people for friends, and I think this goes for you DH too.

Obviously he is inclined to be passive... but remaining completely quiet is condoning the actions.

Speak up as often as you are comfortable... and demonstrate you know a better way as often as possible...

And find or creat a support network in your area of gd and ap parents. they are out there.

(I've noticed lots of views and no respondes on some of my question too, maybe the community is plagued by lurkers)


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## Mom2Camryn397 (Oct 30, 2007)

I have friends who CIO and others who spank but it's very limited and they just really don't know better. I do try to give my perspective but it generally falls on deaf ears because a GD approach is much harder and less immediate than a "pop" on the butt. Certainly every child is different but I think every child also has a right to be respected and heard. Like you, I would love to change the world but it seems like a huge uphill battle. I agree that limiting your time with them may be the best approach and that is what I've done with many of my friends. However, when you are with them, I would most definitely respond to their comments in some way so they know that you find it unacceptable. It's one thig to remove yourself from a friendship that is not mutually beneficial but another to basically approve of their behavior through silence. They might not listen or care but at least you're sending the message that it's not acceptable and there are other ways to discipline. Some people don't know better and others don't care to know better. You just have completely different goals. I feel like most parents only care about the immediate result and 100% compliance from their children without regard for long-term ramifications and their children's needs. To take that a step further, they may be disgusted that your child doesn't always listen to you or that she seems a little wild in comparison and they'll chalk that up to your "overly permissive" form of discipline. GD and Playful Parenting is a heck of a lot more work than punitive discipline and most people aren't willing to put forth the effort much less see the long-term benefits of a gentle approach. Best of luck to you.

Kristy


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

"I pop him hard, 20 x a day."

"Wow. Do you like hitting him? I always feel awful when I lose my temper with the babies. Have you thought about redirecting him? So instead of hitting him, you show him what you want to be doing?"

Now, if she says she likes hitting him, that's a whole weird ball of wax, but who would ever say that?!!

Also, yes, move and give them the pamphlet!!!


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## ~Boudicca~ (Sep 7, 2005)

I really don't know if I could maintain a nice, friendly persona if someone told me that. I would probably







really obviously and then say, "_You hit a baby_?!" It could possibly make her uncomfortable enough and put on the spot to give her pause regarding her parenting. At least I would hope. Maybe not.


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## mama*pisces (Feb 17, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunflowerkelli* 
Me too! I also I wish I had a ton of money *just* for buying books to be able to hand out to complete strangers when I saw them doing something they needed guidance with.


Yessssss, I would do this also!! I need to buy some lottery tickets! lol


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## mama*pisces (Feb 17, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
Are you and the other moms the same age? Now that I have three kids, I often play the "older, wiser" card, but try to be polite about it.


She's about 7 or 8 years younger. I don't think this would work though; my ds is only a little over a year older than hers.


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## mama*pisces (Feb 17, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizawill* 
*i strongly believe that people are put in our path for a reason. * i also think if someone feels comfortable enough telling me that they hit their kids 20 times a day, etc. that i should welcome the opportunity to talk to them in a non-judgmental way about discipline (i say non judging because you won't make a dent in their veiwpoint otherwise). most people don't really "get" that discipline does not have to involve physical punishment. sad but true. i think it's o.k. to challenge someone who hurts their children. you won't win people over all of the time, but if you embrace your friends and talk to them in love - often people will open up even more to you and they WILL respond to what you share.

i think a book is a great gift, don't you??









I strongly believe this also, which is why I haven't been able to get this out of my head. I keep thinking, "Why am I in this particular situation?" It feels like we all came together for a specific reason, and it feels as if I could be a possible catalyst for change in their parenting views. Maybe. But I have trouble when it comes to _how_ to specifically say things so as to not to offend and thus send them running in the other direction. And it doesn't help that I am really not(currently) that well versed in studies and such on _why_ spanking/CIO is bad. I simply followed my heart and LLL







, the moment I heard the term "Gentle guidance", I was all about it. So, that's why I find myself at a loss for words in these situations, I guess.

I don't think it would do any good to give them books as gifts. The CIO mom, _maybe_. I have brought up "Becoming the Parent you want to be" with her before(I had it checked out of the library), and she seemed mildly interested. The other mama, no way. She has this "tough girl" attitude; she seems really hardened on the inside







, and I seriously doubt that any kind of GD book would get through to her. But what I am thinking of doing is going on nospank.net and anonymously sending them both those booklets. They are chock full of great information by experts, and if I send them anonymously I think there would be a better chance of them actually reading them, because I think the "tough girl" may have already written me off as a crazy hippie. There is definitely some weird tension between us.


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## mama*pisces (Feb 17, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GradysMom* 
I say speak up as much as you can... hand out articles about the scientific fact that cio is harmful, that spanking and stress are very harmful. You don't need these people for friends, and I think this goes for you DH too.

*Obviously he is inclined to be passive... but remaining completely quiet is condoning the actions.*

Speak up as often as you are comfortable... and demonstrate you know a better way as often as possible...

And find or creat a support network in your area of gd and ap parents. they are out there.

(I've noticed lots of views and no respondes on some of my question too, maybe the community is plagued by lurkers)









Passive? My dh? Not in the least. Unfortunately, he is kind of on their side.







He believes that spanking is an effective form of discipline, and this has been the most frustrating, heart-wrenching thing to deal with, as I'm sure you can imagine. I've considered divorce because of it.







But we are still trying to find common ground...it's ok most days because he works very long hours, so I am the main caregiver. What happens now mostly is that ds will do something to piss him off(hitting is a big hot-button issue -- but he is TWO, of course it's going to be), and as it is happening I step in between them, sternly tell ds why hitting is undesirable behavior, and suggest other alternatives to what he could do instead. This usually diffuses the situation a little and sends DH fuming in the other direction. It keeps me on my toes, to say the least.









I do have one friend that lives behind me, she FF fed her son because she had to go back to work and has some weird aversion to pumping, but other than that she is pretty much AP.







Other than that, I have a great LLL group, but they are 30 miles away and I can't afford the gas right now most of the time. So I feel like I'm on my own little GD'ing island in a very traditional, "old-school" southern town. It stinks. I really don't like it here.

And thanks for the last comment.







Generally I try not to take that kind of thing personally, I just kind of thought _someone_ should be able to relate to this kind of situation, so I was surprised not to see any replies. And now I am overwhelmed by them all.


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## newmainer (Dec 30, 2003)

ugh. hard situation. Poor babies!!









maybe you could use your dh as a conversation starter? like, "yeah... my dh believes in spanking, but i really don't because...." and go into your spiel. You can't get through to someone by lecturing. They will instantly get defensive.

I did some anti-racism training, and their method for engaging people to talk about race was to ask questions and seek to learn about their views. usually as people talk and try to explain, there often becomes a point where you can find a 'soft spot' where perhaps they are not so sure of themselves. Then ask about that and go from there.

So, in this case, it might look like, "What did your ds do to provoke you to spank him?.... what other things have you tried? oh, nothing? When my ds was that age and did that- i'm pretty sure it's developmental, that behavior- i did xyz and that really seemed to help. would you be willing to try that? why not? wow, sounds like you're tired and..."

you get the idea. i have no idea how it would go, and my first instinct is always to blast the person because i get so emotionally involved, but this approach really is more gentle... and that is what you want to model.

good luck!


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## mama*pisces (Feb 17, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mom2Camryn397* 
I have friends who CIO and others who spank but it's very limited and they just really don't know better. I do try to give my perspective but it generally falls on deaf ears because a GD approach is much harder and less immediate than a "pop" on the butt. Certainly every child is different but I think every child also has a right to be respected and heard. Like you, I would love to change the world but it seems like a huge uphill battle. I agree that limiting your time with them may be the best approach and that is what I've done with many of my friends. However, when you are with them, I would most definitely respond to their comments in some way so they know that you find it unacceptable. It's one thig to remove yourself from a friendship that is not mutually beneficial *but another to basically approve of their behavior through silence.* They might not listen or care but at least you're sending the message that it's not acceptable and there are other ways to discipline. Some people don't know better and others don't care to know better. You just have completely different goals. I feel like most parents only care about the immediate result and 100% compliance from their children without regard for long-term ramifications and their children's needs. To take that a step further, they may be disgusted that your child doesn't always listen to you or that she seems a little wild in comparison and they'll chalk that up to your "overly permissive" form of discipline. *GD and Playful Parenting is a heck of a lot more work than punitive discipline and most people aren't willing to put forth the effort much less see the long-term benefits of a gentle approach.* Best of luck to you.

Kristy

Very well put.

I definitely agree with the first part, I am currently praying for guidance as to how to tactfully explain my views on parenting at my next opportunity. That, and of course I am going to do a little more reading on the dangers of CIO and spanking. I want to be better versed next time something like this happens.

And that last part is entirely too true, sadly. It makes me feel that I am fighting a battle that cannot be won, but you know what? It doesn't hurt to try. I've really got nothing to lose in this instance anyway.


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## mama*pisces (Feb 17, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *newmainer* 
ugh. hard situation. Poor babies!!









maybe you could use your dh as a conversation starter? like, "yeah... my dh believes in spanking, but i really don't because...." and go into your spiel. You can't get through to someone by lecturing. They will instantly get defensive.

I did some anti-racism training, and their method for engaging people to talk about race was to ask questions and seek to learn about their views. usually as people talk and try to explain, there often becomes a point where you can find a 'soft spot' where perhaps they are not so sure of themselves. Then ask about that and go from there.

So, in this case, it might look like, "What did your ds do to provoke you to spank him?.... what other things have you tried? oh, nothing? When my ds was that age and did that- i'm pretty sure it's developmental, that behavior- i did xyz and that really seemed to help. would you be willing to try that? why not? wow, sounds like you're tired and..."

you get the idea. i have no idea how it would go, *and my first instinct is always to blast the person because i get so emotionally involved*, but this approach really is more gentle... and that is what you want to model.

good luck!

Yup, emotional detachment is definitely not my strong suit. Another reason why I have trouble finding the right words on the spot.

We were over at tough girl's house tonight(we grilled out a bunch of food last night so they had us over for dinner tonight), and she totally whacked the 11 month old, *for reaching up onto a sidetable trying to get a cup*. No warning, nothing. I was screaming inside my head: "But he didn't even DO anything!" I had to leave right after that.

I'm caught between trying to talk some sense in to her(though I doubt she'll listen) and running away as far as I can. I really don't think I can stand by and witness any more of that. So the plan right now is to send the anonymous booklet and keep my distance. And DH definitely knows I'm not down with hanging with them anymore. So we'll just see how the next 5 months until our lease is up go....


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## Purple Cat (Jun 8, 2008)

My response is similiar to the other posters: HORRORIFIED!!!!

I completely understand, and my visceral response, would be more confrontational.

I've thought a lot about this situation. I think keeping an eye on the objective is key: help the woman learn to discipline in less violent ways. Judging behavior doesn't help change it. I think if she feels judged, she'll be much more likely to stay entrenched with spanking to save face. Basically, I think you are going to have to be a good actor.

I think with that backdrop, I would try being understanding and sympathetic to how stressful and difficult it is to raise children. It IS stressful to have a toddler gleefully persisting in climbing on the furniture, playing with the stove, etc., etc. I think if you shared vignettes of how you disciplined or managed your willful toddler, etc. and modeled how you discipline, it MIGHT help.

Certainly nothing on that scale, I've been successful in changing occupational therapists, etc., treatment of my children by modeling my approach. For instance, my daughter threw a handful of large discs at an intern. The OT immediately started scolding my daughter how she cannot hurt the intern and cannot throw things at her. I immediately jumped in and said, "DD, I knew you just wanted to give the discs to Christine, but I need you to hand them to her gently. She might get hurt if we throw the discs at her." I added that I knew she wasn't trying to hurt her. I then told my dd that we were going to practice handing the discs to the intern gently. I know it helped my OT understand and respond more constructively to my daughter.

I hope this helps.


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## SophieAnn (Jun 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama*pisces* 
Yup, emotional detachment is definitely not my strong suit. Another reason why I have trouble finding the right words on the spot.

We were over at tough girl's house tonight(we grilled out a bunch of food last night so they had us over for dinner tonight), and she totally whacked the 11 month old, *for reaching up onto a sidetable trying to get a cup*. No warning, nothing. I was screaming inside my head: "But he didn't even DO anything!" I had to leave right after that.

I'm caught between trying to talk some sense in to her(though I doubt she'll listen) and running away as far as I can. I really don't think I can stand by and witness any more of that. So the plan right now is to send the anonymous booklet and keep my distance. And DH definitely knows I'm not down with hanging with them anymore. So we'll just see how the next 5 months until our lease is up go....

Oh that is horrifying! Did you say anything before you left?

Sometimes I think an honest, immediate reaction would work well. For example:
Neighbour: Yeah, I pop her hard x times per day?
Me: WHAT? You HIT your baby?









Or simply stating "I'm sorry, I can't listen to you talk about hitting your baby/child. It breaks my heart. If you want some ideas on alternatives I can help, but for now I think I need to leave.", then walk away (a similar comment would work for CIO as well).

Or if a spanking has just happened "I can't be here if you're going to hit your baby. I'm leaving now."

Another thing you could say to the CIO person would be something like:
"Oh, I could never do that... what if she's crying because she's just vomited all over herself?" (insert worst-case scenario here - had a poopie blowout - head caught in crib bars - ???)

I know it's so hard to react the way we want to in these situations. I've never been in this situation myself, but I'm very non-confrontational so I imagine I would just go very quiet and leave the room.

It's so tough. I know I couldn't handle interacting with them anymore. It would just eat me up inside. Hugs.









Edited to add: In Canada it is currently only legal to spank a child who is between the age of 2 and 12. I'm pretty sure there might also be a minimum age in the US too - and if there is, it's certainly higher than 11 months. You may want to look into that - and if you're feeling brave you could warn your neighbour that she's breaking the law and that if it happens again you will report it.


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## Mom2Camryn397 (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama*pisces* 
We were over at tough girl's house tonight(we grilled out a bunch of food last night so they had us over for dinner tonight), and she totally whacked the 11 month old, *for reaching up onto a sidetable trying to get a cup*. No warning, nothing. I was screaming inside my head: "But he didn't even DO anything!" I had to leave right after that.

Aye yie yie -- that's horrible. It seems like she's proud to be such a "tough mama" and she's almost putting on a show for you by bragging and spanking in front of you. Now that I think of it, I was with some friends who were bragging about letting their babies cry several weeks ago and I was screaming inside but I didn't say anything at the time (I know, I'm a wimp). What makes people think it's alright to brag about things that are so very wrong? Are they looking for people to validate them or are they just completely clueless?

Kristy


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## mama*pisces (Feb 17, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SophieAnn* 
Oh that is horrifying! *Did you say anything before you left?*
Sometimes I think an honest, immediate reaction would work well. For example:
Neighbour: Yeah, I pop her hard x times per day?
Me: WHAT? You HIT your baby?









Or simply stating "I'm sorry, I can't listen to you talk about hitting your baby/child. It breaks my heart. If you want some ideas on alternatives I can help, but for now I think I need to leave.", then walk away (a similar comment would work for CIO as well).

Or if a spanking has just happened "I can't be here if you're going to hit your baby. I'm leaving now."

Another thing you could say to the CIO person would be something like:
"Oh, I could never do that... what if she's crying because she's just vomited all over herself?" (insert worst-case scenario here - had a poopie blowout - head caught in crib bars - ???)

I know it's so hard to react the way we want to in these situations. I've never been in this situation myself, but I'm very non-confrontational so I imagine I would just go very quiet and leave the room.

It's so tough. I know I couldn't handle interacting with them anymore. It would just eat me up inside. Hugs.









Edited to add: In Canada it is currently only legal to spank a child who is between the age of 2 and 12. I'm pretty sure there might also be a minimum age in the US too - and if there is, it's certainly higher than 11 months. You may want to look into that - and if you're feeling brave you could warn your neighbour that she's breaking the law and that if it happens again you will report it.


No, I basically grinned a very fake grin at DH, which I'm pretty sure others saw, but not totally sure. Then I told ds it was time for bath, thanked them for dinner and left. I am non-confrontational as well, so as much as I want to say something, I find it hard in the heat of the moment. I'm working on it though: reading all these responses and ideas is helping me feel a bit courageous.







But it certainly doesn't help that dh is always like:"quit judging and don't get involved" -- I feel like if I were to say something, he would totally get on my case. I like the suggestions you made though. They are non-accusatory and matter-of-fact. I will try to remember those for next time.

I just looked up the laws for spanking in the US; they go state by state, and after skimming them all I can see not one word about their being a minumum age for spanking. These were put up by pro-spankers though, so I don't know if anything was omitted(I would hope not!). I was very irritated by what they put up top.







:

http://www.familyrightsassociation.c...nking_laws.htm


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## mama*pisces (Feb 17, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mom2Camryn397* 
Aye yie yie -- that's horrible. It seems like she's proud to be such a "tough mama" and she's almost putting on a show for you by bragging and spanking in front of you. Now that I think of it, I was with some friends who were bragging about letting their babies cry several weeks ago and I was screaming inside but I didn't say anything at the time (I know, I'm a wimp). What makes people think it's alright to brag about things that are so very wrong? *Are they looking for people to validate them or are they just completely clueless?*Kristy


A little of both in this case I think. And I do feel like she was kinda putting on a show for me. Ughhhh, I wish I would have said something! Undoubtedly I will get another chance though, it's not like I can truly avoid them for the next 5 months, since they live right across the street.


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## *Moomin* (Jan 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama*pisces* 
I can't believe that there have been 26 views to this thread and nobody has any thoughts on this. Yeesh. I'm starting to feel really not welcome in this forum.


Please remember that a lot of users read posts with sleeping babes in their laps or as in my case - i read using my laptop in bed with my baby at my breast and it's almost impossible to type.

On topic - I think you should talk to them. Why should your view be any less legitimate than theirs? You know, in some European countries it is actually illegal to hit children - spanking, slapping, whatever. It's illegal.

Sorry - typing is too difficult at the moment - squirming baby


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama*pisces* 
No, I basically grinned a very fake grin at DH, which I'm pretty sure others saw, but not totally sure. Then I told ds it was time for bath, thanked them for dinner and left. I am non-confrontational as well, so as much as I want to say something, I find it hard in the heat of the moment. I'm working on it though: reading all these responses and ideas is helping me feel a bit courageous.







But it certainly doesn't help that dh is always like:"quit judging and don't get involved" -- I feel like if I were to say something, he would totally get on my case. I like the suggestions you made though. They are non-accusatory and matter-of-fact. I will try to remember those for next time.

I just looked up the laws for spanking in the US; they go state by state, and after skimming them all I can see not one word about their being a minumum age for spanking. These were put up by pro-spankers though, so I don't know if anything was omitted(I would hope not!). I was very irritated by what they put up top.







:

http://www.familyrightsassociation.c...nking_laws.htm

You could try looking at your local child protective agency website. On ours they have a FAQ that includes what is considered abusive. I'm not sure if there's an age limit, but it's stuff like "hitting with an instrument", "hitting on the face", etc. Stuff that LOTS of spankers do.


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## waiting2bemommy (Dec 2, 2007)

I didn't have time to read all the replies, so sorry if I'm repeating anything already said, but I know that what has worked really well with my VERY non-GD husband is to mention an alternative really matter of factly. Like, the other day ds was visiting his dad and he started to cry, and dh didn't go to pick him up. I leaned to pick him up, and he said, "you shouldn't coddle him too much." Of course my initial reaction is







: but I picked him up anyway and said, "I try to always respond to him because, you know, in my psych class I was learning about how so much brain development happens at this age, and that the more responsive the parent is to the child, the more easily the brain grows new connections and the child is able to learn. We read this study about how children in the 50's who weren't cuddled enough in the first 2 years had lower IQ's at age 5." And since he wants ds to be smart, he goes, "Oh. then keep doing that, I guess." And that's it. It may not be the last time he makes that remark, but I always respond the same way, and over time it'll sink in.

One other thing: I'm not as GD as most of the people here, but I always appreciate new information, even if I decide I don't agree. I don't think I'd be offended if someone said, "I read such and such book on XYZ. Ever heard of it?" and maybe offered to loan it to me. But I KNOW I'd take offense if someone put a GD book in my mailbox, kind of like a HINT, y'know? I would wonder why, if it bothered them that much, they didn't just say something.


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## SophieAnn (Jun 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama*pisces* 
No, I basically grinned a very fake grin at DH, which I'm pretty sure others saw, but not totally sure. Then I told ds it was time for bath, thanked them for dinner and left. I am non-confrontational as well, so as much as I want to say something, I find it hard in the heat of the moment. I'm working on it though: reading all these responses and ideas is helping me feel a bit courageous.







But it certainly doesn't help that dh is always like:"quit judging and don't get involved" -- I feel like if I were to say something, he would totally get on my case. I like the suggestions you made though. They are non-accusatory and matter-of-fact. I will try to remember those for next time.

I just looked up the laws for spanking in the US; they go state by state, and after skimming them all I can see not one word about their being a minumum age for spanking. These were put up by pro-spankers though, so I don't know if anything was omitted(I would hope not!). I was very irritated by what they put up top.







:

http://www.familyrightsassociation.c...nking_laws.htm

I'm glad you found them helpful. The great thing about simply saying "this upsets me, I need to leave" is that it makes a point without being judgemental. Even your dh can't say you're meddling with that one.

Ideally, your actions/reactions could lead these moms to wonder if there's a better way to do things - and come to you for help/advice.









I found a website where I could search all of Georgia law, and all I found on corporal punishment was where it is an exception to the rules regarding assault, the how-to's of corporal punishment in education and another law stating that corporal punishment can't be used on inmates.

Hmmm. So corporal punishment is allowed (using paddles even!?!?) in schools, but not allowed in prison.







:

So, yeah.... doesn't seem like there's a minimum age for corporal punishment, although I didn't look at County or National Law.


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