# Whipping babies



## lovemybaby

I am an attachment parent, homeschooling my daughter and very interested in what is going on with homeschooling. I received a magazine last week, Home School Digest, that truly shocked me. I knew this magazine always had ads for whips to beat babies and young children (see http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org...uct-review.jpg ) and this ad was again in this latest issue I just received. The articles in this latest issue were really scary; there were 3 of them that encouraged parents to whip babies and young children and even gave instructions on how to do it.

This magazine is being offered by HSLDA (Home School Legal Defense Association) with a 44% discount - see:
http://www.homeschoolfoundation.org/...es%3AMagazines

I am appalled that HSLDA is doing this!! No baby or young child should be whipped, and parents should not be encouraged to whip their babies!! Please take a moment to complain to HSLDA using their feedback form:
https://secure.hslda.org/hslda/feedback.asp

Thank you everyone for caring about children! BTW, Parenting in Jesus Footsteps is a site that is definitely AGAINST all hitting of babies/children. They even have a petition to sign against corporal punishment of kids http://www.parentinginjesusfootsteps.org/petition.html And here's a new petition specifically against "The Rod" http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org/petition-2.html


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## EFmom

This is one of the sickest things I have ever seen. And the idea that people could possibly think that Jesus would want them to torture their children leaves me speechless.


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## Greaseball

This is beyond Ezzo.


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## calgal007

I especially like the way the handle is cushioned, so as to be comfortable for the person using it to beat their child. I'm sure it's exactly the kind of thing Jesus would use. . .


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## PurpleBasil

Whoa.

The HSLDA has some _major_ problems (anti gay, militant Christian, etc.). I am floored.

I will write to them. But I would bet nothing changes, sadly. HSLDA probably isn't going to start drawing lines in the sand between corporal punishment and whipping.









AND, that Digest features articles from Dobson, the Pearls, and Jeb Bush so that rod advert is right in step with these people.


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## mammastar

Oh my word. That is beyond appalling.

I wonder if they have any Canadian subscribers? If they do, they need to be aware that hitting a child using any object is criminal assault in Canada. Not that they care, probably: sounds like they have a serious dose of self-righteousness to gird themselves against criticism.


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## Greaseball

I'm sad to see John Taylor Gatto's name on the list. I think these religious wackos give homeschooling a bad name; why would Gatto want to be associated with them?


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## Aura_Kitten

my gracious goddess. this is so far beyond appalling i am literally feeling sick.


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## Aura_Kitten

message sent ~

I was appalled to see in the latest issue of a magazine your organization endorses that not only were there advertisements for whips meant for whipping children (quote from an ad: "... Rods are for chastening"), but there were also three articles in the magazine that encourage parents to whip or beat their children. This is unacceptable. No baby or young child should be whipped or beaten ~ NO child should be beaten, EVER ~ and your organization should not endorse a publication which encourages this atrocious behaviour.


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## pilesoflaundry

On another board I actually saw someone posting about wanting one of those 'rods' in the article and offering it as a discipline tool to another mom with a troubled (her words) toddler. uke that is horrendus and awful and I said so.


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## layla

I wrote them and told them they were pawns of the devil!:LOL I figure if they have this religious righteousness going on, I should put it in terms they can understand! Freakin' aweful people!


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## Boobs

Complaint sent!









How can people be so cruel and ignorant? Things like this I just can't understand. Jesus would have never ever beat a child.


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## pie

do some christians really believe that following in jesus footsteps involves

BEATING CHILDREN AND BABIES???

Oh yeah wwjd, beat kids? uh huh yeah right. I am so pissed off.


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## cappuccinosmom

I would be horrified too if they advocated whipping or beating babies. Any sane person would. But as far as I can see, they don't (neither do the Pearl's).

There is a difference (at least in thier minds) between violent, angry beating and "chastening" as they put it. There is also a difference between "baby" and "child", namely, age and maturity.









I know better than to advocate spanking here on MDC.







But what about relating things as they actually are, instead of using more inflamatory phrasing? I know there won't be any problem getter support against HSDL and spanking-advocates even if you posted word for word.


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## Greaseball

Quote:

I would be horrified too if they advocated whipping or beating babies. Any sane person would. But as far as I can see, they don't (neither do the Pearl's).
I've read stuff from the Pearls that advocates spanking babies as young as 6 weeks. (Though I guess not literally "whipping" them.) Still horrible IMO. Even Ezzo waits until 6 months!


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## DreamsInDigital

I feel so sorry for the children whose parents think that's a great tool for teaching them how to behave.


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## PurpleBasil

Quote:

_Originally posted by cappuccinosmom_
*There is a difference (at least in thier minds) between violent, angry beating and "chastening" as they put it. There is also a difference between "baby" and "child", namely, age and maturity.








*
How do you 'chasten' using the specific 'rod'? Help us understand, since you bring up the difference (in their minds which you seem to comprehend).

I already said that nothing will change in this situation as the HSLDA isn't going to draw up a chart showing where spanking becomes whipping and chastening becomes illegal abuse. They leave that up to the rod holder who owns their children sent from God.

But please, do help us understand what is involved in a 'chastening' with that specific rod in the advert. Because the Lord chastens those whom he loves.


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## Greaseball

I have a feeling that if this "chastening" were done to an adult, it would be illegal. It's only OK to chasten defenseless children.







:


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## PurpleBasil

I think it would be okay in those advertisers minds (and authors) to chasten pets, too.

Where does the chastening occur on the body, cappucinosmom? I forgot to ask that, sorry. When I look at the advert for the rod, it is so long, I'd have to stand way back to get a good swing.

They do include a 'safety tip', btw. Probably the usual eye injury warning. Can't be 'ages 3 and up'.


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## sofiabugmom

Quoting the ad ...

"The ideal tool for child training"
























Training a child to be what? Terrified of his or her parents?

Oh, and check out the smiley face right before "RODS are for chastening." Yea, the idea of hitting a child puts a grin right on me.

This is just sick, sick, sick.









Best to all,

JA


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## Unreal

I don't understand how it can be legal to advertise a product such as the rod.
It is not only condoning agressive/abusive behavior towards children--it is openly encouraging it
uke

I'm pretty much against censorship--until it comes to ads (is that considered censorship when you want to restrict advertising?







)

I used to babysit for a family that insisted I "use the spoon" on their boys. I thought they were joking, until one day it came up in conversation with the kids and I asked if it was for real and they said yes








I *never* once in ALL the time I spent with them EVER saw the need to do more than tell them "That isn't okay--why don't we go do ____ instead"
Poor kids


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## moss

Quote:

_Originally posted by cappuccinosmom_
*I would be horrified too if they advocated whipping or beating babies. Any sane person would. But as far as I can see, they don't (neither do the Pearl's).

There is a difference (at least in thier minds) between violent, angry beating and "chastening" as they put it. There is also a difference between "baby" and "child", namely, age and maturity.









I know better than to advocate spanking here on MDC.







But what about relating things as they actually are, instead of using more inflamatory phrasing? I know there won't be any problem getter support against HSDL and spanking-advocates even if you posted word for word.*
Do you advocate spanking?


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## cappuccinosmom

>But please, do help us understand what is involved in a 'chastening' with that specific rod in the advert. Because the Lord chastens those whom he loves.

From what I have read, "chastening" is for the purpose of correcting rebellion. That particular viewpoint holds that parents have such authority over thier children. They believe that authority gives the right of correction. God has authority over His children. His chastening is not always comfortable--sometimes He has to use discomfort to us in order for us to grow. The government has authority over it's subjects. They use that authority to "chasten" law-breakers. Not comfortable either. The Pearl's and others (I wouldn't include Ezzo's at all--they come from a totally different perspective, and having read *all* the Pearl's stuff, I saw that they *discouraged* switching babies and always have said that frequent switching is a sign that the parents are doing something wrong ) see nothing wrong with making sure that rebellion results in physical discomfort. Generally using the rod in a place on the body that doesn't do lasting damage but stings a little (calves or back of the hand). Having been "chastened" as a child







I know it is not always a matter of releasing parental frustration, or angry punishment. Some parents actually want to raise well-tempered and obedient children and believe that this is the best way to do it.

I really don't mind the anti-spanking argument. Semantics are important though. "Whipping babies" gives a mental image of an angry, red-faced parent raising their arm again and again againgst a tiny, helpless, uncomprehending infant. I have never met any devout Christian who does that, though they may see spanking children as ok.


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## cappuccinosmom

>Do you advocate spanking?

Let's just say I don't militate for or against it.


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## PurpleBasil

Thank you, cappucinosmom for explaining yourself further. I do appreciate it!

The Pearls get no points from me for 'discouraging switching of babies' and saying that 'frequent switching' indicates a parent in error. It is ghastly.


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## moss

Quote:

_Originally posted by cappuccinosmom_
*>Do you advocate spanking?

Let's just say I don't militate for or against it.







*

Quote:

_Originally posted by cappuccinosmom_
*>But please, do help us understand what is involved in a 'chastening' with that specific rod in the advert. Because the Lord chastens those whom he loves.

From what I have read, "chastening" is for the purpose of correcting rebellion. That particular viewpoint holds that parents have such authority over thier children. They believe that authority gives the right of correction. God has authority over His children. His chastening is not always comfortable--sometimes He has to use discomfort to us in order for us to grow. The government has authority over it's subjects. They use that authority to "chasten" law-breakers. Not comfortable either. The Pearl's and others (I wouldn't include Ezzo's at all--they come from a totally different perspective, and having read *all* the Pearl's stuff, I saw that they *discouraged* switching babies and always have said that frequent switching is a sign that the parents are doing something wrong ) see nothing wrong with making sure that rebellion results in physical discomfort. Generally using the rod in a place on the body that doesn't do lasting damage but stings a little (calves or back of the hand). Having been "chastened" as a child







I know it is not always a matter of releasing parental frustration, or angry punishment. Some parents actually want to raise well-tempered and obedient children and believe that this is the best way to do it.

I really don't mind the anti-spanking argument. Semantics are important though. "Whipping babies" gives a mental image of an angry, red-faced parent raising their arm again and again againgst a tiny, helpless, uncomprehending infant. I have never met any devout Christian who does that, though they may see spanking children as ok.*
























I feel very sad for any children that are treated like that


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## PurpleBasil

yeah, but, moss, the Christian Bible says that everyone gets it from God (chastening) *if* He loves them so who can then tell a parent not to do something that God does AND they are receiving from God? If one is chastened, one is gonna chasten. That's how the cycle continues.

Sorry this is so derailed but honestly, it is good to know where people stand.









And I wrote the HSLDA. Not that they will give a damn.


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## Greaseball

Why should a baby be chastened for rebelling? What exactly is so wrong with a baby who doesn't feel the need to do every stupid thing his parents tell him to do?

I want to raise a NORMAL child. Normal children sometimes rebel. Oh, and I still love them.







:


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## pie

:

why the smile? You don't militate for or against it? What does that mean? You don't think hitting a baby with a rod is bad news? I am assuming the red heart on the baby butt in your sig isn't something you'd like to be viewed as a target.


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## Pepper

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*Why should a baby be chastened for rebelling? What exactly is so wrong with a baby who doesn't feel the need to do every stupid thing his parents tell him to do?*
The lemming-training begins early amongst these types, I guess. Gotta get 'em to fall into line quickly, don't ya know, lest they think for themselves.


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## Greaseball

Religious freaks (who are different from just regular religious people) often assume that babies are "sinners" and deserve to be punished for things like crying. I can't imagine what kind of a sick person would see the need to impose "physical discomfort" on a baby for normal baby behavior. Some people don't understand that babies aren't here to do our bidding and make life easy for us. We're the ones who are supposed to be making life great for them!


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## pie

I wish I had never opened this thread. I thought only crackwhores hit their babies. I realize how sick and wrong I was to think that. I thought only total drug addict freaks hit little babies. I really didn't believe anyone ever hit a baby, especially in the name of God. If I were God I would be doing some big time striking down right now.


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## moss

me too pie

we live in a sick sick world


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## lovemybaby

Thank you for all your replies and complaining to HSLDA! It all helps. The ad in the mag is truly horrifying; that whip is 3 times as long as my daughter is wide '







'

It's illegal in most states to use such a thing on a pet - how can this be legal to use on a child? It's illegal to hit an adult; even convicts are protected from all corporal punishment. I weep for the babies who are "trained" with this torture device. I wonder what HSLDA is getting out of promoting this rag??

The Pearls are definitely into whipping babies. In this last issue of Home School Digest this frightening article appeared (taken from the Pearl's No Greater Joy sight): http://www3.nogreaterjoy.org/newpage11.htm
They've published a book called "To Train Up a Child" in which they advise parents to whip their babies with a "rod" to "train" them. It's just sickening.

*** Stop "The Rod" *** http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org/petition-2.html


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## TiredX2

Quote:

So how do we induce a child to practice self-control in the early years before he is mature enough to understand the need to do so? A small child learns self-control when his will is constrained by an outside force - in our case, that outside force is his parents.








: Self-control?

Quote:

Keep in mind, the younger the child is the less he is able to retain in his memory the association between the act and the consequences. The smaller a child is the more he lives in the present only. That is why so many parents have found their spankings so ineffective when they remove the child from the scene of the transgression to administer discipline. By the time the child has been led into the bedroom, he has forgotten the transgression. He associates the spanking with the bedroom, not the deed done in the living room. The same loss of association occurs when you delay spanking to grill the child with long lectures. He forgets the transgression and thinks he is getting a spanking for being bored with the speech. It is much more effective to keep several rods handy - one in every room - and be ready to administer one or two licks within seconds of the transgression. You don't need to make a lengthy ritual out of it. Some parents try to turn discipline into a revival meeting, complete with altar calls.
The fact a child is of an age to not have a 2 minute recall means to hit them FASTER?!?!?

Sick, sick and twisted, sick, twisted and just plain WRONG uke


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## mommy2twinboys

sick


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## gethane

I personally don't particularly want to raise up obedient children. Obedient children are the ones who get sexually molested and never tell a soul. They were told not to tell by an adult and they very obediently, don't tell.

Its NOT wrong to question authority, especially when the authority is doing something wrong, which it very often is. I wish more people had been raised to question authority. Things like the death camps in Germany might not have happened if everyone questioned the authority. After all, you can't kill everyone.


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## Greaseball

Quote:

I personally don't particularly want to raise up obedient children.
Neither do I. I want to raise children who cooperate with me about half the time.


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## Aura_Kitten

Quote:

I have a feeling that if this "chastening" were done to an adult, it would be illegal
actually, Greaseball, it may be illegal in most states but i don't think anyone is peeking in anybody's windows about it....







:LOL ** sorry, that was the first thing that came to mind.


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## Aura_Kitten

Quote:

After all, you can't kill everyone.
i'm working on it.










really, the rod-baby issue is really sickening. i'd never heard of the Pearls before... i'll have to look into that.


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## weesej

SO I spent some time reading several articles on the Pearl's site. I am disgusted by most of it. BTW they also had an article on betrothals (arranged marriages) However they explained in detail in one article what type and kind of hitting should be involved with what ages and offense etc. It said babies only need a tap or swat on the hand....they are not whipping them with a rod. Not that any of that is right.

What I do agree with is that firm boundaries from a young age (as soon as a child is willfull....toddlerhood) If a 15 month old know they are not going to get away with tearing up books or jumping on the table then they won't be trying it at the age of 4, KWIM. I think that many of us agreee with this but use other methods of discipline to correct the behavior. I personally do want my children to obey me as I obey my DH and we all obey God. I will also swat my kids when they are disobedient. I was doing gentle discipline and it was not working, once I started spanking consistently it became few and far between that I have a disobidinet child they obey and are happy AND our home is far calmer and we have a better time together. I know most of you are not going to agree with that.

Another point I want to make is that I know many very conservative Christian friends and I cannot see any of them doing these things even though they believe in obidience and spanking. I think this is a VERY EXTREME example of an out there group of people. Most of thier site made me sick and I am pretty conservative myself.


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## candiland

Quote:

I was doing gentle discipline and it was not working,
Gentle discipline doesn't work immediately. It isn't supposed to. It is a way of life; a way of communicating with people that sustains children throughout their lifetime. You don't reap the benefits until they are older.

Beware of quick fixes.


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## Aura_Kitten

Quote:

Beware of quick fixes.















YES. this applies to so much, too.


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## kate42

I doubt I can form a coherent response, I'm so upset.

I cannot believe that someone is marketing a product designed to physically hurt a child.

If anyone ever tries to "chasten" my child using a mail-order rod...


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## pie

stop swatting your kids! I swatted mine a few times and it damn near broke him.


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## sadie_sabot

Quote:

_Originally posted by gethane_
*I personally don't particularly want to raise up obedient children. Obedient children are the ones who get sexually molested and never tell a soul. They were told not to tell by an adult and they very obediently, don't tell.

Its NOT wrong to question authority, especially when the authority is doing something wrong, which it very often is. I wish more people had been raised to question authority. Things like the death camps in Germany might not have happened if everyone questioned the authority. After all, you can't kill everyone.*
Yeah. and in addition, defying us is an important part of our kids' development, where they develope a sense of themselves as individuals by striving for some level of autonomy/seperating themselves from us.

And





















: don't even get me started on the effects this kind of violent parenting has on our society overall! auggghhh!


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## Peppermint

Whoever said they'll be having nightmares- me too














This stuff is sick, sad and disgusting.


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## isleta




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## steph

Quote:

I personally do want my children to obey me as I obey my DH and we all obey God
I certainly don't "obey" my DH, we have mutual respect - which is what I strive for with my dd. And my definition of God does not include someone who needs to be obeyed. If my husband ever expected me to obey him, he'd get a swift flying bird in his face









As for "chastising" children - it is so sick and saddens me so much. Barbaric is the word that comes to mind. Violence is for those who can't think of anything eles.


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## Aura_Kitten

Quote:

I personally do want my children to obey me as I obey my DH...


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## pie

it's not that surprising that she feels that way. I think it was brave of her to express it.

A lot of people still feel this way. I think they are um, different, but they are out there. One is in here I guess.


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## Arduinna

Quote:

I wrote them and told them they were pawns of the devil! I figure if they have this religious righteousness going on, I should put it in terms they can understand! Freakin' aweful people!










Sick sick sick the more I've read about HSLDA the more I'm sickened by them and anyone that supports their homophobic views and the child abuse they endorse.


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## weesej

This is a choice that I have made since I was married, actually about 6 months ago. I was actually raised very feminist. The Bible says to subit yourself onto your husband. Notice that this is the woman doing the subitting....she has the verb. This IS NOT a man forcing a woman to submit!!!!!!!!!!! The Bible also says that a man should love a woman as Christ loved the world (which is more than all else) and that a man should listen and obey his wife, although he has a final say so. This was a huge leap for me, but I cannot express how much better my marriage has become. Ands yes I obey God, he tells me in prayer and in action how I should live my life and I listen.


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## PurpleBasil

Quote:

the Bible also says that a man should love a woman as Christ loved the world (which is more than all else) and that a man should listen and obey his wife, although he has a final say so.
This is not correct. The Christian Bible commands men to love their wives as Christ loved the _church_ , *not* the world. Big difference. Christ doesn't try to make the world without spot or wrinkle (like husbands should do for their wives).


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## luckylady

Gentle discipline didn't work? Punishment will certainly NOT work in the long run!

Discipline is guidance. Discipline is resectful to the child and leaves their dignity intact. It does not threaten the removal of parental love, it does not shame and it does not physically harm. What it does is give the child ownership of the problem and the natural consequence that follows. Discipline is solution oriented and creates children who think, even when their parents aren't around, about consequence.

Spanking - punishment - is lazy parenting. period. Punishment only creates anger and resentment from the child to the parent. Punishment only teaches a child to avoid being punished. It doesn't teach them self-control or self-discipline. Punishment is always about the parent REACTING to a problem and does something to the child. Punishment creates kids who are sneaky and will rebel when their parents are not around.

As for this "tool", how can they sell something one would find in an S&M catalog and call it a chastening tool? Yeah, that's a God I want to believe in.








Makes me beyond ill.


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## layla

First of all, shouldn't the authorities be able to step in here? If someone published books/articles about and ads for tools to abuse their spouse or an elderly person in a home or an animal, wouldn't someone be able to do something? This is sick, it's insane. Because these sickos are claiming "religious beliefs" it's okay? I wonder if they refrain from eating pork or shellfish or meat for that matter? All of that is in the Bible, the Old Testament, but the bible none the less. These religious psychos, like all religious psychos (WHAT religion, it doesn't seem to matter)hide behind certain passages in the Bible but don't grasp the overall concept of it. Anything can be taken out of context and violent, egotistical people like them always take stuff out of context. They always pray on the weak, committ violent acts, committ a whole lot of "sin" themselves (then say, "But I'm only human, I'll pray and be absolved.) and pick and choose how they want to follow their religion. I wish I could see their faces when they get to the pearly gates and God tells them, "Sorry, wrong place. You are eveil and have to go "downstairs!" In the meantime, I wish the authorities would use the rod or a whip on them!


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## etoilech

message sent.

good thing they don't live here... as spanking/hitting a child is illegal here.

Olivia


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## Rainbow

I sent in a letter, it was short and tot he point. I won't be joining hslda until they change a few of their ideals








T
Obeying your DH- even when I was devout Christian DH and I had an equal partnership and I did no obeying. We listened and respected each other.
I think a big part of understanding the bible is understanding the time and context of its origin. Paul, women, and Wives is a great starting point for this imo.


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## tofumama

I never come into the activism threads b/c in my few previous lurks it seemed that some posts got out of control and I just didn't want to go there. Plus I'm a big 'If you have nothing nice to say..." kind of gal. HOWEVER, I could not pass this by. I am APPALLED, and seriously almost yacked when I read that article. I am fighting tears of anger right now. I was 'spanked' (thats putting it mildly) as a child, and I will NEVER lay a hand on my children. Hey guess what? All that spanking made me fear my father, rebel, and become a very angry person. All I remembered was being hit, not why I was being hit. So anyone that thinks hitting there child with a rod to train them... well I'm not going to say what I think, b/c I am probably already overstepping my bounds. My son is 'spirited' (I don't lable, this is just for the conversation) he has had alot of issues lately, tantrums, and various struggles going beyond normal toddler-isms. If I resorted to using a rod on my son to train him to control his urges...my gosh, it would be aweful, never mind the fact that it WOULDN"T SOLVE THE PROBLEM, and probably make the situation worse. TO me its being lazy, abusive, controlling and selfish. And I think it sucks. But, as humans, we can only do what we know. Hmpf, somebody aught to educate these jack*sses.







I am stepping down now, and I don't apologize for my opinion, only if you were offended by the way I presented it.


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## onlyboys

Not to get into a religious discussion, but really, the notion of submission/head of household was written by Paul (they suspect), and it was in no way a reflection of what Christ may have thought on the subject.

Paul was not God, and to my knowledge, he still isn't.

And, he was writing to a specific audience in his epistles and unfortunately, the church of 21st century is not it. The fledgling church that he was addressing was having issues with women in ministerial positions and we all know how Paul felt about that....

Amanda


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## Fianna

Quote:

_Originally posted by weesej_
*
What I do agree with is that firm boundaries from a young age (as soon as a child is willfull....toddlerhood) If a 15 month old know they are not going to get away with tearing up books or jumping on the table then they won't be trying it at the age of 4, KWIM.*
Actually I don't think this is true. Children try all sorts of things at different stages of development. My 5-yr-old often attempts things now, like drawing on herself with markers, that she never would have done, or would have been easily distracted from doing, as a toddler. She likes to climb up things and jump off of things now too, even though we obviously didn't let her do those things for safety reasons when she was a toddler.

Setting boundaries for safety reasons is fine, but punishing toddlers in hopes of creating children who do nothing "wrong" is flawed logic.

I want my children to test their boundaries and not fear some sort of parental wrath. There is nothing wrong, in a child's mind, in jumping from a table, coloring their bodies, doing all sorts of things that seem "wrong" from an adult perspective. Why does our society put so much emphasis on creating little logical, passive adults out of imaginative, fun-loving, inquisitive children? I just don't get it!









I'd like to spend a day with the manufacturers of that whip so I could knock the h#&@^ out of them everytime they did something I didn't like. Wonder if I could "train" them to be decent human beings that way...


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## Rainbow

T

Quote:

And, he was writing to a specific audience in his epistles and unfortunately, the church of 21st century is not it. The fledgling church that he was addressing was having issues with women in ministerial positions and we all know how Paul felt about that....
Paul was no God surely, but he is held as an inspired prophet of God by many if I am not mistaken. Therefore he was god's pen- writing God's thoughts.

The thing is though, Christ actually freed many women from an oppressive time. While Paul's writings were surely oppressive for our day, his writings were progressive for his day. We're speaking of a time where women were not allowed to be taught to read or write- or to even recite the law. Unveiling was grounds for divorce and even death if a man was present. Asserting yourself to a group of men was foribidden. Then comes Jesus, he spoke to women. He allowed them to follow him as disciples. He allowed them as prophetesses. They were allowed to live unveiled. When Paul wrote to the Corinthian congregation there was specific troubles he was addressing... Like you said, he wasn't addressing us- in a time where women have gained pseudo equality (compartively).

I'm feeling agnostic these days- but the topic of women in the church I still find fascinating.

Ok, sorry to interrupt again. :LOL


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## Victorian

Hitting children (or anyone) is wrong. Hitting them with a "rod" is inexcusable. I wish that people would stop hiding behind religion.

My MIL used her god given right to disipline the evil out of my DH with a hockey stick until his legs, butt and back where all bruised. They have been working since he was 18 to repair the damage that was done to their relationship. She is now thank-goodness a reformed spanker (after she went to college and learned a little more about parenting). She actually works with abused children. Thankfully, my husband has been able to raise above his "training" and is a wonderful parent (although he still struggles not to spank).

IMO, Attachment Parenting and spanking CAN NOT and DO NOT mix.

Victorian


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## DebraBaker

This stuff is not only sick and abusive it misrepresents G-d's character to people.

Sick sick sick.

I have been battling this crap for years. It grieves me tremendously.

Debra Baker


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## hotmamacita

No rainbow, don't stop...that was great. Very well said.

Although I do find that most of Paul's letters still apply to the day it is important to look at them in their context.

Most Christians that I know don't consider Paul to be a prophet though.


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## PurpleBasil

I thought it was universally understood now that the letters of Paul are fraudulent?









Sorry, who are these women 'Christ freed'? And freed from oppression, how?

As far as the OP, as long as the Christian Bible states that God chastens those whom He loves, Christian parents will be hard pressed to not do the same to their children. If it's good enough for God to do to those whom he loves, then it's good enough for a parent who loves their child.


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## Kinipela79

Didn't people who owned slaves use a "chastening rod" on them? I believe it's mentioned in the Black National Anthem but I can't find my words to it right now.
What is wrong with people??? I just don't get it. And the "happy face" in the ad just made it all the more apalling!


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## pie

Why am i under the impression that it's illegal to hit kids with anything but an open hand?


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## Greaseball

Quote:

As far as the OP, as long as the Christian Bible states that God chastens those whom He loves, Christian parents will be hard pressed to not do the same to their children. If it's good enough for God to do to those whom he loves, then it's good enough for a parent who loves their child.
Well god must hate me then, because I don't recall being smacked around by some supernatural being.


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## PurpleBasil

Greaseball, I was writing from a literalist (and quite superficial one at that) POV. Sadly, those who would adopt this sort of child abuse willingly offer up this verse in Proverbs as well as the 'train up a child' one (see both verses listed at top of advert).

What does 'chasten' mean? Who gets to decide? If one feels the Holy Spirit is telling one to chasten with a rod 'just like the Bible says', well, that is their perspective, unfortunately.

Lots been done wrong to humans and all living things, really, while a Bible verse is quoted as the proof of God's will for such actions. It will never end but we must do all we can to stop it.


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## Greaseball

Quote:

Why am i under the impression that it's illegal to hit kids with anything but an open hand?
Actually, I think it depends on where you live. In my state, it's legal to hit with an object as long as it does not leave a mark or a lasting redness.


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## BusyMommy

sickening









omg, I just went and read the whole thread.

Quote:

once I started spanking consistently it became few and far between that I have a disobidinet child they obey and are happy AND our home is far calmer
But, that teaches fear not respect. ANd, I want my kids to learn and experiment and form their own values and learn respect. I don't want them to be passive victims.


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## Rainbow

playdoh- I suppose it depends who you ask... The Christian groups I have been a part of consider his writings very much real and very much inspired.
Then again I left for a reason









When it comes to the bible and women there are so very many theories and conclusions. Sometimes I think Jesus was a mythical figure and non of it even happened.

And people wonder why I'm turning agnostic


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## Rainbow

You asked "Freed how?"

I explained in the rest of the paragraph... it was a time when it was illegal to unveil in public. Illegal to teach a woman to read or write. After Christ came they were considered "worthy" of being disciples and prophetesses. No more veiling. They were allowed to learn to read and write the law.

Of course Christianity as a religion used the bible to continue to oppress women. I am not denying that at all.


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## Aura_Kitten

i grew up in a home where we were not only spanked but my siblings (and my mom, who was supposed to "obey" my dad, which is a whole other thread IMO) were beaten too.

yeah, our house was _quiet_ and we were all certainly _obedient_... all of the girls ended up being victims of sexual assault at a young age, too, and all of us have problems with authority, and every one of my siblings except my brother (whom my dad kicked out of the house when he was 11) have had issues with drug abuse and/or alcohol... many of us have required counseling and i *still* have issues with passivity (i don't tend to stand up for myself at all, even when someone's doing something horrible). i've had to spend years trying to get out of the mode of submissive-girl/child and actually learn how to think and how to deal with my own role as freethinking adult. there are a lot of times in life when it's not only OK but the *right thing to do* to question authority. if you beat that out of a child, they're not going to be well-adjusted, they're going to grow up with a whole lot of issues.

we also failed to learn self-control; instead we learned to fear the person doing the disciplining (always my father). if he wasn't home, we knew we could get away with far more. on the other hand, gentle discipline *teaches* and guides, as others have said. it guides children toward the right decisions and helps them learn the self-control and personal responsibility they need to function well as adults.

this isn't just some wacko liberal propaganda --there is a ton of evidence behind this. please rethink spanking.

also, just FYI: someone asked why they're getting the feeling it's illegal to hit with anything but an open hand ~ one of the things i learned in the parenting classes i attended is that in my state, it *is* illegal to hit with anything other than an open hand, and it must be lightly enough to leave no lasting (more than a few hours) marks. the class was taught by 2 people who used to work for CPS, and were still involved with the system. *however* that was about 2 1/2 years ago, so, i don't know if the laws here have changed since then.


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## layla

The bottom line is that any psycho-sicko can find verses to suit his/her needs, & it's not just the Bible. There are wackos in every religion. I consider myself a fairly religious person, but I'm not a coward nor am I a bully, so don't need to hide behind it. The zealots in any religion are cowards and bullies and weather they are quoting the Bible, the Koran, the Torah or whatever, they are all of the same ilk. Jesus was a peaceful man and he was not judgemental and he felt the punishment should fit the crime: "Let he who throws the first stone be without sin." Maybe those child beaters should check that one out. The rod is thought of in connection to shepherds who GUIDED their sheep, never beat them!Most major religions believe in Jesus, mostly as a prophet, not the son of God. Anyone who believes in him should know that he would never, EVER condone hitting a child!


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## MaShroom

i KNEW i shouldn't have opened this thread.

i think i do things i shouldn't because my mom beat the living sh*t out of me (oh wait, i mean *spanked* me) when i was a kid and i'm not freaking finished rebelling.









what really gets my panties in a wad (besides the very obvious!) is that this is the same group of people who will pray for my pagan soul. you know, because i will suffer eternal damnation







: even though i'm totally against violence and don't spank my kids. yet, these same people advocate violence toward children? what??? i don't get it. i guess they're praying for us in between "chastening" their children. if that isn't just nuts then i don't know what is... hypocrisy doesn't go over well with me.









i'm emailing them right now, thanks to the op for the heads up.


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## Greaseball

Maybe those of us who live in states where it is illegal to hit with an object can take the ad to the police dept.


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## moss

excellent idea greaseball


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## hotmamacita

ITA layla.


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## hotmamacita

Quote:

_Originally posted by playdoh_
*I thought it was universally understood now that the letters of Paul are fraudulent?







*
Yes, I think many people think the Bible is a crock. But that doesn't mean that it is true that the letters of Paul are fraudulent. I personally believe they were real letters from a real person to real people. But I also do not codify those letters into strick rules of how I am to behave. All throughout the Bible, the consistent THEME of RELATIONSHIP with God is more prominent than mere rules.

I have opinions on different translations. I don't believe everything people say or speculate about God or the Bible. I have a relationship with Christ that helps me understand His word and how I am to love people.

I have never felt it was loving to whip a baby. Whipping and beatings, in my opinion are just plain wrong.

But also, and this could to make a whole lot of you who already do not like me for whatever reason REALLY assume the worst of me---I hope you decide not to---but I think there is a difference b/n what some Christians believe as using a rod for correction and using the Bible/Koran/Torah/upbringing to support your own beating and control of a child. Maybe if you know some IRL you could calmly sit down and ask them. Then you can sense where their hearts are in the matter on a more personal level than blanket statements. And perhaps, you can enlighten them with the wonderful non-violent techniques that most of us here at MDC and many elsewhere (Christians/Muslims/Jews/Pagans/non religious incorporate into our lives.










Okay, speaking of kiddos and disclipline...I gotta go break up a







: over....who else....THOMAS the train.


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## hotmamacita

Oh and write letters! (since this is in Activism and really a call for action thread) But name calling won't help people understand your POV.

Peace,


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## PurpleBasil

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hotmamacita*
Yes, I think many people think the Bible is a crock. But that doesn't mean that it is true that the letters of Paul are fraudulent.

but I think there is a difference b/n what some Christians believe as using a rod for correction and using the Bible/Koran/Torah/upbringing to support your own beating and control of a child.

Whoa. Never said the 'Bible is a crock'. Please, let's not go global on this. I mentioned Paul's alleged letters because it is accepted in scholarly research that those were plagarized and fabricated. Doesn't make them worthless or anything. Just not what one is told in the Christian tradition, that's all.

What is there in the Qu'ran or Torah to support 'beating and control of a child'? What verses?


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## phathui5

"but, moss, the Christian Bible says that everyone gets it from God (chastening) "

But the Bible does not say that chastening is hitting. God has never once whacked me with a stick, and I believe that He loves me even though he hasn't.


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## Aridel

The Pearls' first book is online, in its entirety, here - http://city.hokkai.or.jp/~repent/Eng...s/TrainUp.html - and it's terrible. They do say you should switch babies, they talk about switching their 4 mo. old to keep her from crawling up stairs. "One of our girls who developed mobility early had a fascination with crawling up the stairs. At four months she was too unknowing to be punished for disobedience. But for her own good, we attempted to train her not to climb the stairs by coordinating the voice command of "No" with little spats on the bare legs. The switch was a twelve-inch long, one-eighth-inch diameter sprig from a willow tree." They also want you to set up "training sessions" where you deliberately give the kids commands you know they'll disobey, just so you teach them not to by switching them some more. He pushed his daughter in a pond to teach her not to play near it, and let his kids put their hands on a hot stove to teach them to stay away when he said "Hot" These people are just sick and I had nightmares after reading their book, I only read it because I couldn't believe what it was saying!


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## hotmamacita

Quote:


Originally Posted by *playdoh*
Whoa. Never said the 'Bible is a crock'. Please, let's not go global on this. I mentioned Paul's alleged letters because it is accepted in scholarly research that those were plagarized and fabricated. Doesn't make them worthless or anything. Just not what one is told in the Christian tradition, that's all.

What is there in the Qu'ran or Torah to support 'beating and control of a child'? What verses?

Not to worry playdoh. I didn't say or think that you said that about the Bible. DIdn't mean to alarm you.


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## hotmamacita

Quote:


Originally Posted by *playdoh*
What is there in the Qu'ran or Torah to support 'beating and control of a child'? What verses?

Playdoh--my point was NOT to cite verses or point the finger in any way. Please do not worry.

I don't even think the Bible supports 'beating and control of a child'.

Again, my point is to say that people can use anything to support their own 'beating and control of a child'. Christianity is not the only religion where you will find spanking or tools to spank with.

I really don't want to start attacking religions. That was not my intent in my post earlier.

I think it is each parents heart that decides to either appropriately discipline or to harm their child.

gotta go...

peace,


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## Nicole77

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovemybaby*
The Pearls are definitely into whipping babies. In this last issue of Home School Digest this frightening article appeared (taken from the Pearl's No Greater Joy sight): http://www3.nogreaterjoy.org/newpage11.htm
They've published a book called "To Train Up a Child" in which they advise parents to whip their babies with a "rod" to "train" them. It's just sickening.

I just read this and I feel physically ill. Shame on anyone who would subject any human being, and a small child in particular, to this kind of blatant abuse. I feel ill thinking that I might be in contact with anyone that depraved. These people do not deserve the wonderful blessing that a child is...like spitting in the face of God. For shame.


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## tricia80




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## DebraBaker

Oh it only gets worse.

The Pearls not only advocate parents beat their children starting about when they start squirming when they are getting their diaper changed but they believe in other people hitting children, older siblings hitting children.

The real killer, they believe that a wife must welcome her molesting husband back into her home and bed. Look in their archives for that article.

Not on a full stomach, I warn you.

This is really bad stuff and I continue to advocate against it on Christian websites. (debating other people who favor this bile)

Debra Baker


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## shantimama

Just a note -

the common understanding of the word obedience is usually to do what someone asks of you without question, usually without hesitation, too. Years ago when I was exploring the idea of life in a religious community (becoming a nun) I was fascinated to hear the women (nuns) talk about the true meaning of the word - it's root comes from a word that means TO LISTEN.

Quite a different meaning, eh? I can be obedient to G-d, to my husband, but it sure doesn't look like the way my fundamentalist and evangelical sisters are obedient! I believe obedience - whether it is me, my husband or my children becoming obedient - means listening to the words, desires and wisdom of others AND respecting my own desires and wisdom. My response, or "act of obedience" if you will, comes from the integration of those things. It doesn't necessarily mean that the other person gets control of the relationship, which is what is usually meant when people talk about obedience.

Hurting someone into obedience just doesn't work. Too bad we have lost the meaning of the word. We need a new word.

Articles like that give all of us hoeschoolers a bad name. I hate that. People have no business harming babies and children.


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## Greaseball

CPS says if you accept a molester into your home, it's grounds for having your children taken away. Does god really say that you should put a molester above your children? I thought god gave us the instinct to protect our children.

I just had a chance to look at the Pearl article...I've read only a few paragraphs and already it's worse than I'd imagined! Since when are infants into "fleshly desires" and "the dark arts of indulgence?" For what, wanting to be fed and held?! Nice that they manage to quote Jesus...I guess when something is taken radically out of context, it can suit anyone. And then they have a little smiley face at the end of the article...these people are sick. I feel sorry for any kids they have "homeschooled." They make public school look good.


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## fyrflymommy

Aridel said:


> They do say you should switch babies, they talk about switching their 4 mo. old to keep her from crawling up stairs. "One of our girls who developed mobility early had a fascination with crawling up the stairs. At four months she was too unknowing to be punished for disobedience. But for her own good, we attempted to train her not to climb the stairs by coordinating the voice command of "No" with little spats on the bare legs. .......... He pushed his daughter in a pond to teach her not to play near it, and let his kids put their hands on a hot stove to teach them to stay away when he said "Hot" QUOTE]
> 
> that is abuse. i wonder if there's some way to get the pearls arrested..... maybe we should be sending copies of pearls' quotes to police officers and fbi agents
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :


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## Greaseball

I don't know if they could get arrested. Their own children have probably been "chastened" into submission (or we could call it what it is; beaten) and would never dare rat on their parents. And you'd think it would be illegal to write books about how to do illegal things, but there are all kinds of books that teach you how to make drugs and bombs and convert weapons to full automatic, and no one is getting arrested for writing those, though the police are well aware of them.

But I noticed, when I put their names in a search engine, no "watch out for these people" sites come up the way they do for the Ezzos. Maybe the Pearls don't advocate near-starvation of babies the way the Ezzos do.


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## Aridel

The Pearls' kids are all adults now, one of the daughters writes for their magazine thing - they send it out once a month to parents. This - http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/index.ph...=20&tt_news=10 - is the article about abusive husbands/fathers. They've got books, a newsletter, tapes, all to show their way of training kids. They go around doing little conferences at churches. How do I know all this? I actually know people who used this method. They almost lost their kids, and they're all dealing with the fallout now.


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## Bex80

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
I've read stuff from the Pearls that advocates spanking babies as young as 6 weeks. (Though I guess not literally "whipping" them.) Still horrible IMO. Even Ezzo waits until 6 months!


WTF??????? Are you for real??????? That is the most effed up thing I have EVER heard! A 6 week old can barely smile and people really SPANK them??!!?!? What the hell kind of world is this????


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## cappuccinosmom

>Maybe the Pearls don't advocate near-starvation of babies the way the Ezzos do.

They don't. The Pearl's advocate cue-feeding and co-sleeping for the first year at least.


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## Peppermint

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom*
>Maybe the Pearls don't advocate near-starvation of babies the way the Ezzos do.

They don't. The Pearl's advocate cue-feeding and co-sleeping for the first year at least.









REALLY?


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## sadie_sabot

Klothos:


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## cappuccinosmom

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jess7396*







REALLY?


Yes, although they do give "training" advice to those who would prefer thier children sleep in thier own beds. They still say the co sleeping and extended breastfeeding is best.

Actually, except for the spanking and being Christian fundamentalists, they are *very* into natural living. More "crunchy" than I'll ever be.


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## Aura_Kitten

i can't justify calling someone crunchy who advocates spanking and whipping children... no matter what the rest of their lifestyle is like.

crunchy ~ to me ~ connotates something happy, like granola.

the pearls are like, bad crunchy, like eating rotting beetle corpses or something.


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## Greaseball

"Husbands, learn how to sanctify your wife and cleanse her of spots, wrinkles, and blemishes."








: It never occured to me that my blemishes were the lord's way of chastening me!







:







:







: That's hilarious!

"Wives, learn the freedom of honoring and ministering to your man."








But we can't get rid of his wrinkles?


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## Fianna

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
"Wives, learn the freedom of honoring and ministering to your man."








But we can't get rid of his wrinkles?




















































:







:







:







:







:

I really needed that today!


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## phathui5

Sick, sick, f*cking people. This is from the end of the abusive husband article:

"But if your husband has sexually molested the children, you should approach him with it. If he is willing to seek counseling and repent, then fine and good. If not, then go to the law and have him arrested. Stick by him, but testify against him in court. Have him do about 10 to 20 years, and by the time he gets out, you will have raised the kids, and you can be waiting for him with open arms of forgiveness and restitution. Will this glorify God? Forever. You ask, "What if he doesn't repent even then?" Then you will be rewarded in heaven equal to the martyrs, and God will have something to rub in the Devil's face. God hates divorce-always, forever, regardless, without exception. "

Holy crap! That's what this is! Let me tell you. I am a Christian and Jesus says in the gospels that adultery is a reason for divorce. Sleeping with my children is most definately adultery.


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## Greaseball

"Have him do about 10 to 20 years..."

Since when does the wife get to decide how long her husband goes to jail? The courts decide, and terms for incest are given in months, not years.


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## Simplicity

Ugh. This is horrible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11


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## Greaseball

"...and by the time he gets out, you will have raised the kids, and you can be waiting for him with open arms of forgiveness and restitution. Will this glorify God? Forever."

That's funny...god as _I_ understand god would be royally pissed off. I guess the Pearls and I just have "different interpretations" of things.







:

That same line was given to me when I asked why priests molested children. "Well, some people have different interpretations of the bible." I guess my interpretation is that children should never be abused. Go figure.

I'm sure the children who are "trained" with these methods are never asked how they interpret what is happening to them.


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## Bex80

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom*
>Maybe the Pearls don't advocate near-starvation of babies the way the Ezzos do.

They don't. The Pearl's advocate cue-feeding and co-sleeping for the first year at least.


Oh, really? Good for them! NOT!!!!!!







Anything they may do that's good is ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY NEGATED!!!!!! by the fact they they beat their NEWBORNS!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Kinipela79

Quote:

Oh, really? Good for them! NOT!!!!!! Anything they may do that's good is ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY NEGATED!!!!!! by the fact they they beat their NEWBORNS!!!!!!!!!!!
But Bex - they aren't BEATING their newborns...they are simply TRAINING them! uke

The more I read about these people and the more I read the Train Up a Child thing the more sick I get. It makes me even more mad that people out there are doing this type of parenting!

"They play together well, resolve their own conflicts and don't expect attention when one turns the rocking horse over and gets a knot on her head."

It would just break my heart if my child hurt himself and didn't come to me because he was afraid of me. That is so awful.


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## oatmeal

Completely horrified.

Message sent :

Horrified, sickened and appalled that your orgnization supports Home School Digest Magazine, a publication that advocates corporal punishment, whipping, beating and humiliation of children from the age of infancy.
This is how we create A VIOLENT, WAR-HUNGRY WORLD!
There is never an excuse to hit a child of any age.
Shame on you!


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## etoilech

to describe my disgust at these people. It makes me absolutely ill to think of what kind of effects they have had on their children.

In my opinion these people shold be locked up and their children removed from them *forever*. To hit a 4 month old? That makes me feel like becoming violent. I only *wish* they lived here. They would truely never see the light of day again.

Why do people think this is okay to do to a CHILD and not an adult?

AGH, ugh, ugh, revolting.

I can't even think straight to write coherently. uke









Olivia


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## hotmamacita

I agree. That is awful.


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## Peppermint

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bex80*
Oh, really? Good for them! NOT!!!!!!







Anything they may do that's good is ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY NEGATED!!!!!! by the fact they they beat their NEWBORNS!!!!!!!!!!!

















That's what I am thinking, but also wondering how in the world you could be so in tune with your babe as to feed on demand and co-sleep, and somehow still BEAT them







: What kind of evil are these people?


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## OnTheFence

I've read this thread with interest. And found the "hatefulness" interesting and the judgement too. I want to give my take on this whole thing as soon as I get my flame suit on....

Ok, well I want to say that no. 1 I do not think what these people advocate is right and that on many levels it is wrong. I do belong to the Pearl's Train Up A Child yahoo group and have for many many years. Morbid curiousity as to "who" would be attracted or following their teaching.

They are mothers just like us. Most of them homebirth, even unassisted. Most every mother breastfeeds and cosleeps. A good many of them carry their babies in slings and cloth diaper. Most of the parents on the group do not vaccinate, are far from mainstream, and homeschool. All of them love their children and want what is best for them.

I was raised in a very strict, right wing conservative Christian home. My mother was a Dr. Dobson fan. We were hit with belts and paddles. My mother, while I believe was wrong and my father too, they did it because there religious beliefs were that this is how children can be reared. The Bible is up for interpretation. I have two years of theology under my belt and while I agree that for the most part the bible doesnt advocate "spanking" it does advocate killing or shunning disobediant children. The old testament god is not some wonderful god that was merciful and kind, he was a vengeful, jealous god who killed or had killed mothers and childrens just because they were not Hebrew or Levis. So for those of you saying "well the god of the bible wouldn't want this to happen" you need to go read the Tanakh a few times and see how violent god is. I mean any god that asks a man to go perform a human sacrifice on his child isn't exactly a child advocate.

While we may think its awful, these people believe they are doing right by their god and religious beliefs. They arent these awful god forsaken people who hate little kids and enjoy beating on babies. And I might add, their kids are not any more screwed up than other children out there either.

I have to run, carpool lady today....


----------



## PM

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
. And I might add, their kids are not any more screwed up than other children out there either.

That is probably quite a superficial assessment of these - and others' - children's psychological health. Why should any child be screwed up? That's what we AP parents try to avoid, no?


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## DebraBaker

The Bible says that people in leadership are held to a higher standard because (I believe) they hold so much power over those under them.

I think the pearls are like the people Jesus was referring when He said (paraphrased) It is better to have a millstone tied and thrown into the sea than to cause one of those little ones to stumble.

The parents do love their children, think of how these parents must subdue and ignore their G-d-given mothering instincts to follow what they have been deceived into thinking is G-d's mandate to spank babies and children.

This is the face of evil.

Debra Baker


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## chicagomom

Sorry, OTF, I understand what you are saying, but...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
And I might add, their kids are not any more screwed up than other children out there either.

Except that they will beat their children too.









To me this is like saying I homebirth, breastfeed, don't vax, and molest my child. He won't be any more screwed up than other children out there.


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## rainbowmoon

OMG this is so sick!


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## Peppermint

OTF- you make a good point in that surely these parents do believe they are doing what God wants them to, I think the Pearls are the evil ones, no so much the people who follow them- I pity the parents who think they need to do that to their children--BUT much more- I feel true sorrow and anger of what these children are enduring through the hands of their parents









As far as their children not being any more screwed up than others- I have to wonder...my parents were not perfect parents (and neither am I), but they were so much closer to perfect than so many people- and I am "less screwed up" than most of the people around me. Most of my "issues" come from the outside world, whereas many of the people around me feel most of their "issues" are a result of their parents ways/choices. I really feel that my parents mainly good parenting made me who I am today, I think there is a lot to be said for parenting with kindness/gentleness.

As far as the biblical side- I am lucky (IMO







) to be Catholic and tend to look to Mary as to how to raise my children----try to find areas in the bible where Mary would do anything that the Pearls advocate for discipline (and, yes- I know her child was perfect







). So, I look to her in how to mother, and boy oh boy does that raise the bar







.


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## OnTheFence

I was spanked. With Switches, Belts, and Paddles. I was done this way based on "biblical" principles. I don't think I am a screwed up person. I know lots of folks down south here parented that way -- and they are no more messed up than anyone else I know. First because this is part of their religious/spiritual beliefs, these people are parenting with pretty strict moral guidelines and these kids are brought up with firm discipline and a respect for laws and rules. These children of the Pearls or those that follow their teachings are not "abused". The word abuse is thrown around way to often and trust me, I know someone personally who follows the Pearls teachings loosely and its FAR from abuse! While I may disagree, I feel their heart is in the right place and nothing I have ever said or presented them has changed their mind. Sometimes I wonder if people here or elsewhere really know what "abuse" is or what a "screwed" up person is.


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## PM

Raises hand! Be very careful On The Fence! I highly doubt you could even fathom what my homelife was like for many years.


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## Rainbow

I think you might be suprised how many of us do know what abuse is. I was in an out of foster care and hospitalized at the hands of my parents. My foster parents abused in an entirely different way. I know all to well what abuse is.
It is you, on the fence, who I think is misunderstanding the word abuse.

Quote:

To use wrongly or improperly; misuse: abuse alcohol; abuse a privilege.
To hurt or injure by maltreatment; ill-use.
To force sexual activity on; rape or molest.
To assail with contemptuous, coarse, or insulting words; revile.
While I certainly conceed that there are various degrees of abuse and maltreatment- I will not contend that hitting a child is not a misuse or abuse of ones authority over another human being.

I to know people who use similar styles in parenting. I to believe they are good, though misguided, people. That does not change the fact that they are abusing their power over their children.


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## Greaseball

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jess7396*







That's what I am thinking, but also wondering how in the world you could be so in tune with your babe as to feed on demand and co-sleep, and somehow still BEAT them







: What kind of evil are these people?

Who would want to sleep with someone who might decide to thump them at any minute?


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## Greaseball

Quote:

Most of them homebirth, even unassisted. Most every mother breastfeeds and cosleeps. A good many of them carry their babies in slings and cloth diaper. Most of the parents on the group do not vaccinate, are far from mainstream, and homeschool.
I would much rather associate with parents who choose hospital birth, bottlefeed, crib-sleep, vax, public school, use disposables and push their babies in strollers - and yet know that hitting a child is wrong - than someone who does all the "AP stuff" but chooses to hit anyway.

And I really don't care about what "god" wants, I care about what my children want and what will work best in our family. I tend not to follow the advice in parenting books; I already know what to do. The bible is just another of these books to me.

Quote:

Sometimes I wonder if people here or elsewhere really know what "abuse" is or what a "screwed" up person is.
I'd think it would be up to the individuals to decide whether or not they were abused, rather than someone on this board. Although if they want the support of the law, in a lot of states they would get it. I know a lot of people who were molested and to look at them, you would think they turned out fine - they have good jobs, are well educated, are reasonably happy, and they don't molest their kids. That doesn't mean it didn't hurt them. Same goes for people who were spanked. Some people are more hurt by it than others. I find fault with the people who spanked them, not the victims.

Since I work with abused people, I know the best thing I can do for them is to believe them when they say they are abused, not tell them that the term is thrown around too loosely and what happened to them wasn't that bad. If they say it was bad, it was.


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## Thursday Girl

This makes me want to throw-up!!! I am appaled i am angry, and they are just sick-o's. And I feel feel feel for the kids who's parents buy into that.


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## Thursday Girl

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
Sometimes I wonder if people here or elsewhere really know what "abuse" is or what a "screwed" up person is.

I know what abuse is. I know what a screwed up person is. Did i overcome? yes i did, but it was hard, painful, and at times almost cost me my life.I was screwed up beacause of it for a very long time. And you could call me "normal" (i use that very loosely) now, but still what happened affects you. Just becasue you can';t see it on the outside doesn't mean it's not there.
My mother was abused as a child she overcame it to, but it's still there.(let me just say my mother is not the one who abused me. She is an absolutley amazing, strong, and wonderful woman!







)

I also agree that there are diffrent levels of abuse but ti is still abuse. I went years trying to deal with a sexual abuse because "it wasn't that bad compared to what others go through" But you know what it was still abuse, it still messed me up seriuosly. And more so beacsuse i couldn't fully accept it as that bad, so i had extra feelings of guilt.

In conclusion to my windbag speech no form of abuse is right, religously sanctioned or not. serious or minor. Abuse hurts. Children are the future, they are people, we should treat them as such.


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## Greaseball

Each time I read this thread, I'm reminded of the times I tell my dd to stop doing something and she immediately does it again, only with more passion. Or the times she interrupts me when I'm on the phone, knocks over my drinks, tears my books, purposely makes herself fall and then demands that I pick her up, turns off the TV when I'm watching it...and I think, thank the heavenly father







: that I'm mature enough to handle normal childhood behavior without resorting to hitting. I see having a "difficult child" as a sign that I'm doing something right. I would much rather my dd be the way she is than be perfectly obedient for fear that she will get "switched" if she doesn't do exactly as I say.

(BTW, no offense to people here who don't hit their children and have calm and non-difficult kids anyway.)


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## HoneymoonBaby

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
Who would want to sleep with someone who might decide to thump them at any minute?

That's pretty disingenuous - I don't think most spanking parents just decide on a whim to give their kid a good whack. Spanking is a punishment or consequence for an unacceptable action. Kids know that. I was spanked as a child, and I never had any fear of my parents "thumping me at any minute." I knew that if I broke their rules, I might be spanked, and as long as I toed the line, I wasn't in any danger. It's not like they spanked me for fun.

Most spanking parents don't WANT to hit their kids. It's not something they do as a power trip or a random fun activity whenever they feel like it. They spank in response to certain well-established situations. I'm not big on spanking, but I think to imply that spanking parents are all ticking time bombs that might decide to belt a child for no reason at any moment is totally out of line. And I don't think children have that perception, either. I know I didn't.


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## cottonwood

OnTheFence wrote: "I've read this thread with interest" [...] "And I might add, their kids are not any more screwed up than other children out there either."

Either you did _not_ read this thread, or you are implying that you do not believe any poster here who has said that they were spanked and have suffered emotionally and psychologically because of it.

Whatever.


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## Peppermint

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*

(BTW, no offense to people here who don't hit their children and have calm and non-difficult kids anyway.)


Thanks- I have easy kids









I have been thinking more about this thread too, I am thinking that abuse is bad enough, but when you feel the abuse was due to religion/God, that could seriously screw a person up, and would certainly turn some people away from religion/God altogether







.

I want my children to grow learning of the God that forgives (like Jesus did), the gentle God, I want God to be someone they turn to when they need something, not someone they fear so greatly that they would have no choice but to turn their back on Him should they ever really screw up.

I am so thankful that my children are able to be raised to love and trust in God. When I lose my temper and scream at my kids (for example), when I apologize, I tell them that I am going to pray and ask God to help me be a better mommy, more kind and gentle. They know God is "on their side" so to speak.

OK, I'm rambling, I just wonder if there is any chance of these children growing up and "breaking the cycle" if it is so ingrained (engrained







: ) as "God's way".


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## Greaseball

Quote:

Spanking is a punishment or consequence for an unacceptable action.
Or, in some cases, a punishment for normal baby/child behavior, such as squirming, grabbing, etc. A baby who sleeps with her parents is likely to squirm and grab at things, and who knows what would happen if the parents think that's unacceptable and keep a switch near the bed? ("One in every room," as the Pearls recommend.)

Quote:

Most spanking parents don't WANT to hit their kids.
Then they can choose not to. They aren't powerless. They make a choice to spank and then they do it.


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## Peppermint

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HoneymoonBaby*
That's pretty disingenuous - I don't think most spanking parents just decide on a whim to give their kid a good whack. Spanking is a punishment or consequence for an unacceptable action. Kids know that. I was spanked as a child, and I never had any fear of my parents "thumping me at any minute." I knew that if I broke their rules, I might be spanked, and as long as I toed the line, I wasn't in any danger. It's not like they spanked me for fun.

Most spanking parents don't WANT to hit their kids. It's not something they do as a power trip or a random fun activity whenever they feel like it. They spank in response to certain well-established situations. I'm not big on spanking, but I think to imply that spanking parents are all ticking time bombs that might decide to belt a child for no reason at any moment is totally out of line. And I don't think children have that perception, either. I know I didn't.

The thing is- these people advocate HITTING INFANTS! The infant has no way of knowing the how or why or when they will be hit, the slightest bit of child development education tells you that. FTR- I am anti-spanking/hitting altogether, but there is a special place (not a good one







) for people who advocate hitting infants.


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## SpiralWoman

ok, I got to the end of page 2 & I just can't read anymore. I am so grateful & blessed that this horrific & appaling stuff isn't part of my everyday life. My heart is breaking for the babies, children, & parents who are spoon fed this stuff & have never seen any way to live other than like this.









And I am furious with the religious leaders & teachers who advocate these extreme behaviors. All they are doing is creating a base of followers so that they can claim more power & glory to themselves. It probably doesn't matter to them what they teach or how horrible it is, just so they can claim that they have the righteous way.

I think it is a cult, not any true religion that teaches such horrible behavior. I think that company that makes those whips should have to turn over it's sales records to the FBI who should then go to every home that has bought one & make sure those children are safe. I think every minister who encourages this should be charged with child endagerment. All Christians should speak up & drive this from their churches!


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## DebraBaker

At least in our jurisdiction you cannot go after these pastors who advocate this crap.

Trust me I looked into it.

Debra Baker


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## layla

I got an email from hslda (or whatever the darned innitials are!) saying they don't advocate any "real abuse" and didn't know what ad or article I was referring to...anyone else who sent a complaint email to them get a response?


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## Greaseball

I think one might have a better shot going after the people who advertise the rods. They would be illegal in some states, and with other things that are illegal only in certain states, the people who sell them have to put it in their ad, or refuse orders from that state.

But then...marijuana is illegal, but you can still buy a bong because supposedly you can claim you aren't going to smoke pot with it. :LOL There is a store in Portland, OR that sells single hypodermic syringes with spoons! So one could claim to be buying a rod but not beating kids with it...maybe he could say he is beating animals or using it on himself in some bizarre sexual practice.


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## HoneymoonBaby

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jess7396*
The thing is- these people advocate HITTING INFANTS! The infant has no way of knowing the how or why or when they will be hit, the slightest bit of child development education tells you that. FTR- I am anti-spanking/hitting altogether, but there is a special place (not a good one







) for people who advocate hitting infants.

I totally agree with this. I should add that I posted my last comment before reading the whole thread. If Greaseball was specifically referring to young babies, then I stand corrected. It's horrible to hit an infant -- they are way too little to understand. I jumped to conclusions and assumed Greaseball was talking about ALL spanking parents, not specifically people who spank babies. My mistake.


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## Aura_Kitten

Greaseball's head is in the right place. (i'm not meaning to exclude all of you whose ideas 100% concur w/ hers... just that her posts stand out in my mind above all the rest!)

Quote:

Most spanking parents don't WANT to hit their kids.
if they didn't want to, they wouldn't. duh? that's like me saying, "gosh i don't really WANT to eat that bowl of ice cream... but i will anyway." they hit because they *want* to do it, because in their mind it's the "right" choice.

Quote:

I'm reminded of the times I tell my dd to stop doing something and she immediately does it again, only with more passion. Or the times she interrupts me when I'm on the phone, knocks over my drinks, tears my books, purposely makes herself fall and then demands that I pick her up, turns off the TV when I'm watching it...
sounds like normal kid behaviour.







much of that ties in w/ developmental milestones that children *need* to reach... if you spank a child every time they do stuff like this, then they aren't going to reach the right stage of psychological development because they'll never move beyond it... just like someone mentioned before, the Pearls aren't just advocating spanking for misbehaviour, but for normal childhood things like grabbing and wiggling. and _that's_ disgusting.


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## Aura_Kitten

_Thank you for your comments. I am not entirely sure what you are
referring to, however, as we strongly oppose real child abuse in any
form. If you could let me know what article or advertisement you were
looking at, I would be happy to look into it further.

Also, please let me know your HSLDA membership number so that I can
direct your comment to the appropriate person.

Sincerely yours,

Jonathan Bechtle
Senior Legal Assistant
Home School Legal Defense Association
P.O. Box 3000
Purcellville, VA 20132
540-338-5600_

this is such bs.







: i told them exactly what i was referring to when i contacted them. and what's up with needing the membership number?? :: grr ::


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## layla

Same one I got...must be their standard answer! I told them they were all disgusting and should be ashamed of themselves. Oh yeah, and to define "real abuse." Sickos!


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## steph

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence*
I know lots of folks down south here parented that way -- and they are no more messed up than anyone else I know... Sometimes I wonder if people here or elsewhere really know what "abuse" is or what a "screwed" up person is.


Ok, this is where you have to look at us as a culture and recoginze that we come from a culture of violence. Violence that starts with young children (and in the case of the Pearls and their followers, infants). Because someone doesn't appear screwed up, doesn't mean that they aren't. We are screwed up as a culture because we have internalized violence. We can't change ourselves as a culture until we stop the violence. And it doesn't happen in one generation (I wish!) - it takes many generations to change cultural patterns. If we want to stop being a violent culture - and we must if we are to survive as a species, it has to begin with us and our children. Spanking is violence, pure and simple.

On the Fence, my mother was horribly abused as child by her father - a man so violent he broke his own mothers wrist one day as she tried to protect my mother. In her last dying days, I watched my mother regress and relive the terror of her fathers beatings. If you were to have met her, you'd never guess at her past. People heal, but that doesn't mean the damage isn't there. It just gets normalized and often comes out in unconcious ways.


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## JessicaS

A reminder that this thread is discussing the Pearls advocating whipping INFANTS and is not a spanking debate at all.

If you want to debate non-gentle discipline and legalities involved. Start a new thread.


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## lovemybaby

I didn't know the Pearls shoved a non-swimming child into a pond!! Yecchh...they're even worse than I thought...and kicking their cat to "teach" it...these are evil people. I only read parts of their book "To Train Up a Child" because I just couldn't stand it with all the baby-whipping...I'm going to complain to Amazon about selling this book!

I complained to the people who make "The Rod" and they said they've gotten lots of complaints. They said all the research that shows hitting kids is damaging is "un-Godly research!" They're in Oklahoma and apparently this kind of corporal punishment is common there. I called the AG in OK and they said they couldn't do anything...

*** Stop "The Rod" *** http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org/petition-2.htm


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## JessicaS

Amazon won't stop selling a book because they get complaints..they never do


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## Greaseball

"Un-Godly research!" :LOL So basically anything that goes against some religious freaks' propaganda is ungodly? What about the christians who are truly non-violent; are they not very godly? Who sets the standards for godly research?

I was wondering if that thing about shoving a child in the pond was true. Supposedly it was to teach the kid not to jump in the pond? So they shoved him in the pond, and then what, they whipped him? Someone else said that about them, I think, that they trick kids into misbehaving and then punish them for it.


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## lovemybaby

Amazon DID stop selling Home School Digest when people complained about that baby-whipping rag! Hooray!


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## PM

Hee hee. Did a search on Michael Pearl and found this:

http://www.blessedquietness.com/jour...echu/pearl.htm


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## PM

So the common theme in Pearl advocates is this, "My children are good. They can sit in church without stirring. People talk about how good they are.?"

So perhaps people who follow the Pearls should examine their idea of "good?" It's all an ego trip for the parents as far as I can see!

These children are repressing their real emotions (anger, sadness, hurt). When feelings are repressed, the body remains a state of tension. Then the emotions are released in various ways: shyness, migraines, hyperactivity, nail biting, etc. Children who repress their emotions score lower on IQ tests. They can't learn because their focus is on themselves, their repressed emotions. Eventually the children become sick (chronic fatigue). Finally, this "good" behavior does not derive from joy/contentment but from force.


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## DebraBaker

Yes, the Pearls advocate throwing a *timid* child into a pond in order to teach that child to fear the water.

They also teach parents to *bait* toddlers by telling the child to "come here" when the child comes they say, "oh, it was nothing, go back and play" over and over until the child ignores the parent and then the parent whips the child for not listening to the parent's voice.

This is baiting and definately violates the Biblical injunction against parents provoking their children.

These people are amongst the most sick teachers out there. And, unfortunately, I have become something of an expert on these people.

DB


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## HoneymoonBaby

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DebraBaker*
These people are amongst the most sick teachers out there. And, unfortunately, I have become something of an expert on these people.

DB

How have you become an expert? I STILL haven't read the whole thread, so I don't know if you've posted a link, but I'd like to find out more about these people, so could you point me in the right direction? I'm in a group at Church for mamas-to-be and a couple of the girls are very enthusiastic about Ezzo and "strict" parenting, and I could honestly see one of them in particular getting sucked into this kind of thinking. Is there a website or something that effectively debunks these people (especially from a Christian perspective)? If you've already posted a link, just tell me and I'll go hunt for it.

Thanks . . .


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## sleeping queen

Pearls THis is their website if you want to research their articles. A friend of mine thinks their theology might be questionable as well. I personally don't know nothing about their theology, but would take that into consideration when reading their material.


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## phathui5

There's no way to really prepare yourself for their website, but do brace yourswelf before going there. I went and looked at the articles and it's a lot like a car crash (where there's like mangled bodies and stuff). It made me want to throw up but I couldn't look away. Finally, I closed that window and I wanted to cry.


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## Greaseball

I love the article about talking to a 6-month-old baby about her choice of a husband.







: As if they all just can't wait to grow up and get married - to a man, of course.







:

Quote:

It goes without saying that he must be a virgin. Furthermore, he must be absolutely innocent in regard to pornography. If he has ever been a user of porno, he can forget Laura. It will not matter that he has confessed his sins and is forgiven.
I thought the whole thing about being a christian was that you were forgiven for your sins! So if you've ever done anything wrong, you aren't truly forgiven? I don't get these people...

Quote:

Most movies, even the ones with a G rating, communicate the porno worldview.
That kind of impression comes only from LOOKING for sexual messages where there are none!


----------



## Greaseball

And here is what they say about spanking a 7-month-old for crying when put to bed:

Quote:

But for the moment, you must constrain the child to obey authority and remain lying down. As a last resort, you may have to prove the power of your word by enforcing it with one or two stinging licks (applied with a small flexible switch) to the child's leg that says to the child, "There is no reward for getting up; Mama means business; she is not going to give over to my demands; the path to greatest pleasure is to go to sleep; there is no alternative; my parents always get their way; what can I say? Good night."
Only the least intelligent people could possibly think it would work to spank a child for crying.

And here are some questions people have:

Quote:

My 4-year-old has a big problem when she needs to get spanked. She bucks, screams as loud as she can, turns red, and thrashes around. It is unbelievable how she acts, and it is very tiring.

Quote:

I have a question about my 3-year-old. When my husband or I need to speak to her about her bad behavior she seems to become what I would describe as scared/shy/distant. She stands with one shoulder lifted to her chin and her chin pushed down into her shoulder, looking up at us as if we are going to give her the world's worst rebuking.
So, in other words, these children are reacting normally to the abuse they endure. And here is the advice:

Quote:

When she screams or flees, calmly follow through by physically subduing her. Sit on her, if you have to, and slowly explain that you will not tolerate this resistance. Explain in a normal tone (She will eventually stop screaming and listen) that you are going to give her, say, five licks for the original offense and an additional two licks for the fit. Slowly apply the five licks, counting out loud. When I say slowly, I mean with a thirty second gap between each lick and a calm explanation to the screaming child that you are not the least impressed except that you are going to spank harder and she still gets the additional two licks plus one more for her ongoing screaming.
They go on about how the parents must continue to spank until the child stops screaming about it. But don't most spanking parents WANT the child to scream? Would they spank if they didn't think it was causing pain? They also tell the parents of the 3-year-old to "give her an extra lick for looking pitiful."









Ugh, that's enough for now.


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## Aura_Kitten

Greaseball, the quotes you posted made me so sick and disgusted.


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## simonee

oh my godd...........

i can only cry for those children

these people really need to be in prison


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## layla

Why aren't these people being arrested?!!!! They are disgusting!


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## Greaseball

I think these people live in a community where everyone parents like this, so it's not like anyone is going to run to the police. The children certainly aren't; if you raise a child to believe he has no rights, he's not going to complain about being violated.

I don't know what the laws on spanking infants are. All I hear is that it's illegal to leave a mark on a child or to hit anywhere but the hand or butt. I think the people who make the laws just assume that no one would hit a baby.


----------



## sadie_sabot

I am feeling some verrry strong emotions about these "people" right now.









Steph, I really appreciated what you said about our culture of violence, and I totally agree. When we are so immersed and surrounded by extremem violence all the time, we lose our perspective.


----------



## cappuccinosmom

>If we want to stop being a violent culture - and we must if we are to survive as a species, it has to begin with us and our children. Spanking is violence, pure and simple.

Is it OK to ask a question about this statement? I have wondered about it a lot. If it's not, I can post a new thread.

My question relates to "spanking is violence and promotes violence". Some of the most peaceful people I know are friends in a Mennonite church. They are concsiencious objectors in war time, and won't even use violence in self defense. They'd rather die. In thier family living, they are just full of peace. They may have disagreements but both adults and children see it as a personal failure to speak even a cross word to one another. Yet, they do not see spanking as violence towards thier children, and many parent in a way similar to the Pearl's. Some of them use "thumps" to condition even babies not to do something. Some of them wait until toddlerhood or later to begin spankings. The emphasis is not on painful punishment and making thier children miserable--it is about applying just discipline for rebellion (or teaching a child what is not acceptable so they know and don't need to rebel) and then immediately restoring the parent child relationship that was initially broken by disobedience. Among those I know, abuse is very rare, much less common than those outside the church, whether they spank or not.
I just find it odd that the most peaceful people that I know would be included as "violent abusers who should be arrested" in most of your minds here.







They sure aren't the ones who are killing each other (or the rest of us!) off, they don't beat people to a bloody pulp, and won't even participate in non-combatant positions in a government "war machine". On the other hand, I've noticed that even non-spanked children can be violent-note the GD forum and all the "My child is hitting/biting/bruising others..." threads.

It's strange to me.


----------



## DebraBaker

I live near enough Amish and Mennonite to know that the positive steryotype of them is just that.

Using physical force to condition childen into passivity isn't a particularly positive practice in my opinion.

DB


----------



## cappuccinosmom

>I live near enough Amish and Mennonite to know that the positive steryotype of them is just that.

Maybe for some groups.
But I'm specifically referring to people I grew up with, and people that I know and interact with on a regular basis. They are *truly* peaceful, and this particular church doesn't have the problems with teenage running-around and drug stuff like the Amish do so frequently.


----------



## Greaseball

Same for me - the fact that they would not use violence to defend themselves does not make up for the fact that they use it against their children. Self-righteous adults can call it whatever they want, but if they were doing the same thing to an adult, even a "rebellious" adult, it would be called violence.

It's a myth that if you just spank your children enough, they will not have behavior problems. I have a child who hits and pinches me and dh and I'm not stupid enough to think all she needs is a good smack and she'll stop.

Some of the most peaceful people I know do not hit anyone at all, especially children.

I also don't believe infants are "rebellious" or sinful or learning the dark arts, as the Pearls say. As for toddlers, I would be worried about those who never rebelled. Children aren't meant to be convenient, you know.


----------



## Peppermint

I would have to say that your friends or the people you are seeing are very peaceful, except toward their children, I realize they don't see it that way (I did not used to see it either, I used to think spanking was ok). If they wouldn't hit their spouse to 'teach" them something, why should it be ok for them to hit their child. IMO- even though they don't see it as so, they ARE using violence against their children.

People can be "good" people who happen to have been conditioned to believe in a bad premise, in this case ---"hitting adults is wrong, hitting children is ok/necessary".


----------



## Aura_Kitten

Quote:

It's a myth that if you just spank your children enough, they will not have behavior problems. I have a child who hits and pinches me and dh and I'm not stupid enough to think all she needs is a good smack and she'll stop.










(omg Greaseball, i just can't stop backing you! :LOL)

this is so true. violence only begets violence; disrespect begets disrespect.

this brings to mind a poster that's in the local HRC office (i took parenting classes there), as well as in the health food store i worked at, that said something like, "Children learn what they live with." it had a bunch of examples, all like "When a child sees _______ they learn _______." it really made an impression on me... children are sponges. they will absorb everything they live around and with, *not* just what we say, but all that we do. they learn by our examples.


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## indie

Quote:


Originally Posted by *weesej*
This is a choice that I have made since I was married, actually about 6 months ago. I was actually raised very feminist. The Bible says to subit yourself onto your husband. Notice that this is the woman doing the subitting....she has the verb.

I haven't read this entire thread yet, but I have to correct this statement. The woman does NOT have the verb here in the original Greek. The verb is in the previous verse which reads: "Be subject [submit] to
*one another* out of reverence for Christ" Ephesians 5:21 (NRSV) empasis mine. The following verse reads in the Greek: "Wives, to your husbands as to the Lord." There is no verb in this verse. It totally relies on the understanding that *everyone* is submiting to one another. In fact even verse 21 which calls for the submission of everyone, relies grammatically on the previous verses (18-20). These verses tell you how to be the kind of person who can put the needs of others ahead of your own, whether you are male or female, child or adult.


----------



## sadie_sabot

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom*

My question relates to "spanking is violence and promotes violence". Some of the most peaceful people I know are friends in a Mennonite church. They are concsiencious objectors in war time, and won't even use violence in self defense. They'd rather die. In thier family living, they are just full of peace. They may have disagreements but both adults and children see it as a personal failure to speak even a cross word to one another. Yet, they do not see spanking as violence towards thier children, and many parent in a way similar to the Pearl's. Some of them use "thumps" to condition even babies not to do something. Some of them wait until toddlerhood or later to begin spankings. The emphasis is not on painful punishment and making thier children miserable--it is about applying just discipline for rebellion (or teaching a child what is not acceptable so they know and don't need to rebel) and then immediately restoring the parent child relationship that was initially broken by disobedience. Among those I know, abuse is very rare, much less common than those outside the church, whether they spank or not.

I have a friend who grew up Mennonite, and he has a *lot* of issues. His perception of his childhood is that his father was extremely violent and rage fulled toward him. He is just one person, just one example, but ya know, hitting is hitting, and hitting is violent.


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## 5796

This is one of the saddest threads I have ever seen on MDC. And I have seen a lot.
I can't believe there is even a nanosecond of support for pearls people. how anyone can use the bible and christ's message (I guess) and use it to beat their children and then organize and distribute tools to beat their children is unfathomable to me.

my own guess is that deep in their soul they are very, very, very unhappy people and they take their sorry lot of a life and turn it against their children. And of course the righteous spin just puts it in a new stratosphere of misguidedness and cruelty.

I guess they will meet their maker and that will be their day.


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## isleta

This is horrible!!! Sory if that has been said before on this thread.

I was spanked and had the belt. It is sad when you learn to fear your parents and not be able to fully trust them. I love my parents, don't get me wrong. However, my childhood of fear and intimidation is something that I am stopping with my son.


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## Greaseball

Hey, I found one good thing about the Pearls! They warn parents not to hit their children on the head!

Quote:

Swat any exposed skin anywhere except on the head.
Oh, and:

Quote:

The two-year-old does not need bad influences to be a selfish, fleshly, carnal, hedonistic hippie.
Well, that's how I was hoping she would turn out - glad I don't have to work hard to make it so! :LOL

And Michael Pearl says about a tape he sells on the website:

Quote:

Michael Pearl speaks directly and frankly to men about their responsibilities as husbands. Wives should not listen to this tape. We don't want you taking advantage of the men.
I have to admit, I'm curious! It's only $4, but I don't want any money going to those sick people.


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## Victorian

just checking back into this thread with a message from my husband: if you want to be enlighted further about child abuse, check out the website for Andrew Vachess (www.vachess.com). He is an amazing man that works to stop child abuse in all forms. WARNING: this website is not for the faint at heart. I (Victoria) do not even venture in!


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## AnaNicole

I perused all of the posts here with interest and want to add a few thoughts.

First, how refreshing to read your post, Indie. I was once studying Greek and translating the Bible from the original and ya know, I think everyone ought to be able to do this if they are going to quote from the Book and ESPECIALLY if they are going to _live_ by the Book. So much meaning is lost in translation. So much is open for interpretation and these "people," the Pearls, certainly twist the meaning of the Bible to fit their own sick view of the world.

The point has been raised many times about the double standard of hitting (spanking) children for a digression vs. hitting (spanking?) an adult. I called 911 once upon a time, when an argument in my household was peaking. I did it as a bluff, and called that bluff on myself when I actually dialed, then hung up, and got called back. Nobody was in danger, only voices were raised, I just wanted it to STOP, and I impulsively reached for the phone.

The operator got my husband on the line first and asked to speak to me. Her first words to me: has he hit you?

So, what if he had? What if, to punish me for a transgression, he had switched me with a whip on the legs or the butt or the arms (anywhere but the head, as these people advocate)? I'll tell you what: he would have been ARRESTED. I would have been able to press CHARGES against him.

Why is this not acceptable--why is this called domestic violence--and yet spanking, whether it leaves a mark or not--is acceptable to some people?

Okay, now I'm starting to think this is missposted (considering the moderator's comment earlier). But I had to address the issue as it was raised and yet, not responded to by those who are apparently okay with spanking. I surely wish someone would enlighten me about this because I just do NOT get it, and I never have.


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## Greaseball

AnaNicole - I don't get it either. So far the best excuse people can come up with is "adults and children are different."







: That's not good enough for me.

What I really don't get is that even if I assaulted someone who is a lot bigger than me - like my dh - I would go to jail. I'm 5'1", he's 5'10". But if I assault someone smaller, like my dd who isn't quite 3 ft tall, that's OK.


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## Dar

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Victorian*
just checking back into this thread with a message from my husband: if you want to be enlighted further about child abuse, check out the website for Andrew Vachess (www.vachess.com). He is an amazing man that works to stop child abuse in all forms. WARNING: this website is not for the faint at heart. I (Victoria) do not even venture in!

Actually, it's www.vachss.com. Rhymes with "fax"....

There used to be message boards there, but they're gone now.

I love Vachss' books, especially the "Burke" series. Maybe love is the wrong word... they're intense, engrossing, and real...

Dar


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## PM

Could one of you pro-Pearlers (or pro baby-swatters) tell me what you think when you read (basic) psychology's stance on spanking? And could you give me the name of one child development expert/child psychologist that supports spanking babies. And since you probably won't be able to, what does that make you think? I'm since in wanting to know.


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## PM

Spanking does not promote violence, it promotes repressed anger - a major, major problem in the US, IMHO.

It also has no place in a non-violent community:

"The Moral Imperative to Do Justice Within Christian Pacifism: Tensions and Limits"
by Duane K. Friesen
Professor of Bible and Religion, N. Newton, KS
Presented at the International Historic Peace Church Consultation
"Theology and Culture: Peacemaking in a Globalized World"
Bienenberg Theological Seminary: Switzerland
June 25-29, 2001

Quote:

2. "Last resort" thinking cuts short imaginative thinking and creative action to find alternative ways to make peace. It is very easy to become lazy in our thinking, simply to mouth the platitudes of policy makers who try to convince us "that there was nothing else we could do." Usually the alternatives are put as follows: we either had to engage in the use of violent force, or let things continue as they are (do nothing). The logic that leads to the "last resort" of war is often fatally flawed, as flawed as a parent's resort to spanking to discipline their children. Nothing else has worked; we have tried every peaceful means to solve the conflict. So now, like the parent who resorts to a spanking, we will try the use of violent force. The assumption is that force will work, since no other method worked. In fact there is an uncertainty here, a presumed certainty about the good results that can likely result from force that are often exaggerated, and later not born out by the facts. In conflicts involving two parties who both justify the use of force to accomplish their just cause, if there is a declared "winner," we know that half of the actors were wrong in their calculations right from the start.


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## OwensMa

I'm only on the 2nd page of these posts of this thread, and I cannot go on. I've read enough to be horrified for a *ver* long time. My heart bleeds for the little babies and children who get hugged and told they are loved and then whipped with a rod by the same parent in the same day.


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## Greaseball

I've been reading more of the Pearls website, and yes, she did nurse her children until age 2! Doesn't make up for anything, IMO. I can't imagine being nursed by someone who hit me.


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## sohj

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pie*
I wish I had never opened this thread. I thought only crackwhores hit their babies. I realize how sick and wrong I was to think that. I thought only total drug addict freaks hit little babies...

Sorry if this sounds flip, but I happen to know a "crackwhore" and I can assure you _she_ doesn't hit children. She gets all hyper with them, and gets weepy and aggressively sentimental, but she doesn't think children should be hit. She was hit when small and thinks it is horrible. (Of course, she is the only one I know personally, so I have no clue what the other thousands of crackheads do.)

I think only misguided people who have no natural compassion of their own and who blindly follow others guidelines will hit children; or people who cannot control themselves at that moment and lash out in a blind rage.

Neither situation sounds like appropriate child-rearing.

and, as far as what is posted by weesej:

Quote:

What I do agree with is that firm boundaries from a young age (as soon as a child is willfull....toddlerhood) If a 15 month old know they are not going to get away with tearing up books or jumping on the table then they won't be trying it at the age of 4, KWIM. I think that many of us agreee with this but use other methods of discipline to correct the behavior. I personally do want my children to obey me as I obey my DH and we all obey God. I will also swat my kids when they are disobedient. I was doing gentle discipline and it was not working, once I started spanking consistently it became few and far between that I have a disobidinet child they obey and are happy AND our home is far calmer and we have a better time together. I know most of you are not going to agree with that.
Well. Yup. I'm NOT going to agree with you. Totally.

I have a toddler. He is not _willfull_, he is _frustrated_! His passive understanding and imagination is developing waaaaaaay faster than his physical coordination, his height, his ability to _tell_ me what he wants, and his ability to make judgements about what various body signals (like tiredness) mean and how to make them feel better.

There is NO WAY I could POSSIBLY believe that hitting him would solve ANY of his problems. Time, good food, consistency, non-violent boundary setting, and love will solve all the "problems" I see right now.

When he is a little older, he will have other "problems" and there will be other solutions to add.

NEVER, EVER will hitting be part of the solution.

And, for what it is worth, I plan to NOT allow my son (until he is older and has a greater ability to reason with himself and others) to play with children who get spanked, swatted, chastened with a rod, slapped, whipped, whupped, spooned, beaten, or, as one of my sisters-in-law was, tied to the radiator with a chain long enough to allow her to do the cleaning in the small house they had, but not long enough to go outside.

From my PERSONAL experience, children who get corporal punishment are (1) unpredictable playmates, (2) frequently become bullies, (3) usually don't understand how to "read" odd situations properly and overreact, sometimes violently. And I've had a lot of personal experience with this.

It was AMAZING how frequently they came out of "Christian" homes. I put Christian in quotations because physical punishment is NOT a teaching of Christ. Ergo, if they beat their children, they were not Christians.

I offer to the thread this bit from the Friends General Conference website:

Friends and Children

By Southern Appalachian Yearly Meeting and Association

The foundation of spiritual life is laid in the family. As members of the family foster their own spiritual growth, children come to sense the presence of God. This foundation gives them an assurance and security that helps them order their relationships with God, with others, with nature, and with themselves. By consistently practicing simplicity, honesty, nonviolence and creative response to conflict, service, love, self-respect, and respect for others, parents install these values in their children and also foster the essential attitudes of self-worth, self-confidence, and self-discipline.

http://www.fgcquaker.org/library/wel...-children.html


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## Aura_Kitten

Quote:

I plan to NOT allow my son... to play with children who get spanked, swatted, chastened with a rod, slapped......










i don't allow my son to play w/ those types of kids either, mainly because when i set up playdates the parents are there as well, and i do NOT want him exposed to the rhetoric, "you do something 'bad' and you'll get hurt for it." i hear parents all the time saying "you're going to get SPANKED" or "you're going to get a whupping for that!" i just don't want my son exposed to that, not even the language. it's disrespectful at best and just horrible at worst.


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## onlyboys

Quote:


Originally Posted by *klothos*
i don't allow my son to play w/ those types of kids either, mainly because when i set up playdates the parents are there as well, and i do NOT want him exposed to the rhetoric, "you do something 'bad' and you'll get hurt for it." i hear parents all the time saying "you're going to get SPANKED" or "you're going to get a whupping for that!" i just don't want my son exposed to that, not even the language. it's disrespectful at best and just horrible at worst.









I also am having issues with letting my son play with people who hit. Ending friendships that you've fostered carefully since college is difficult, though. I've been surprisingly sad and reluctant to end it, but it's slowly going away.

I quickly clear my children (especially my very sensitive 8 year old) away from language like you mentioned, and then we discuss *why* we don't speak and act in that manner. Hitting is never okay. Not ever. Not in my house or in my presence.

My 2 year old is extremely willful and I've not ever hit him. I never will.

Amanda


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## AnaNicole

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sohj*
I have a toddler. He is not _willfull_, he is _frustrated_! His passive understanding and imagination is developing waaaaaaay faster than his physical coordination, his height, his ability to _tell_ me what he wants, and his ability to make judgements about what various body signals (like tiredness) mean and how to make them feel better.


Yes, that's just it. I have come to believe that you can only administer physical punishment to such young children if your personal view on their behavior is negative. For instance, the difference between the word willful and the word frustrated. I think a lot of the philosophies that advocate corporeal punishment also assert that children are manipulative--that they naturally want to be "bad" and that parents must make them "good."

Such a crock, that anyone who knows anything about child development ought to know!

Small children need to express themselves non-verbally and also test their boundaries. It's up to parents to be creative enough to set boundaries lovingly. If it takes force to do it, then I firmly, deeply, believe that the parent in question needs to take a parenting class and find more positive role models.

Parenting non-violently takes a willingness to have an open mind, and these people--the Pearls and those of their ilk--are obviously limited in the mental department. So sad that they weren't limited in the biological department as well.....


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## AnaNicole

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AnaNicole*
I have come to believe that you can only administer physical punishment to such young children if your personal view on their behavior is negative.

On a second read I want to assert that I don't just mean young children. NOBODY should be subject to physical punishment.


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## cappuccinosmom

>I was spanked and had the belt. It is sad when you learn to fear your parents and not be able to fully trust them. I

I'm sorry you feared your parents.

But it's unfair to assume that all parents who spank are bad and that every time they spank it is in a fearsome rage or ice-cold anger, or that all children who are spanked grow up with deep anger issues and have trouble loving and trusting thier parents. Just as it is unfair of the Pearl's to assume that all non-spankers are lazy heathens who don't care about thier kids and children who go unspanked will be good-for-nothings (I really don't like thier arrogance).

I'm sitting in the middle looking at both sides of the issue, and I see the points of non-spankers, and respect them. But having grown up around all kinds of families, some of them spanking, I've also seen that alot of the assumptions posted here are not correct. My own parents have been on both sides of the issue, and none of us 4 kids were damaged, we love our parents, and don't have any mental issues related to either being spanked or not spanked. In fact, the *only* thing that really damaged our family life was when my mom was depressed and turned into a screaming, angry, frustrated "monster-mom". And she never spanked us during that time.


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## Aura_Kitten

Quote:

NOBODY should be subject to physical punishment.








~ ITA

about the language ~ honestly i do use the words "willful" and "strong-willed" to describe my son (along with "spirited," "energetic," "bouncy," "smart," and so on







)...

i don't think "willful" or "strong-willed" have negative connotations -- at least, they don't to us. i like that he has strong opinions and he has the ability _and desire_ to communicate them to us.


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## sohj

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AnaNicole*
...I think a lot of the philosophies that advocate corporeal punishment also assert that children are manipulative--that they naturally want to be "bad" and that parents must make them "good." ...

To many, this is part of the idea of "original sin".


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## Greaseball

Quote:


Originally Posted by *klothos*







~ ITA

about the language ~ honestly i do use the words "willful" and "strong-willed" to describe my son (along with "spirited," "energetic," "bouncy," "smart," and so on







)...

i don't think "willful" or "strong-willed" have negative connotations -- at least, they don't to us. i like that he has strong opinions and he has the ability _and desire_ to communicate them to us.

Yes! I think being willful is a good thing for a child. I don't want to drive that out of them.

As far as whether kids think spanking was OK in retrospect, I think what matters most is what they think about it as it's happening to them. I'm sure they don't appreciate it. That right there is reason enough for me not to do it. I don't practice non-spanking out of a fear that my kids will be messed up if I spank; I don't spank because I simply don't have the right to do it.


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## AnaNicole

Oh I don't mind willfull either. It IS accurate, after all. I just think people tend to ascribe a negative connotation to the word.

As for being raised by spanking parents, I get your point, cappuccinosmom--I was spanked and I dearly love my parents and have a great relationship with both of them, now. But frankly, they really didn't need to spank! I completely and totally grok WHY people do it when they're frustrated or very angry (just as I *understand* the impulse behind child abuse--but would never condone acting on it!). I think a lot of spankings are administered in the heat of the moment by parents who feel unsupported/over the edge.

I could offer support to a parent who feels that spanking is their only option--and by support I mean help them create a better, non-violent relationship with their kids by offering other ideas, an ear, what have you.

It's those parents who rationally justify physical punishment that leave me full of questions. It doesn't make sense, it isn't right, and I can't support it. Period. I know these parents love their kids--love isn't the issue here. At least as far as I'm concerned. And I am very diplomatic, believe me. I can always see two sides to any issue! But for me, hitting/spanking/call it what you like, is black and white (sometimes black and blue). It is STILL striking another part of a person's body to cause pain, which in turn is supposed to modify behavior. Maybe not a LOT of pain, but pain nonetheless. I can never condone hurting other people no matter how you dress it up in fancy semantics.


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## AnaNicole

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sohj*
To many, this is part of the idea of "original sin".










Yeah, I know. It bums me out, too, because I don't know the Bible well enough and anyway, it's usually impossible to argue with a true believer. Suffice to say, if you ask me WWJD I would say: advocate AGAINST spanking.


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## cappuccinosmom

>I was spanked and I dearly love my parents and have a great relationship with both of them, now. But frankly, they really didn't need to spank! I completely and totally grok WHY people do it when they're frustrated or very angry

Well, I guess that's where we differ then. And I think it's hard for people to comprehend parents spanking when *not* frustrated or angry, because it's not common--most of us see or experience spanking that is the result of an emotional blow up, and combined with real, terrifying anger.

I was talking with my mom about this tonight, and I actually don't think I would fault them for any of the spankings I recieved. It happened rarely. It wasn't abuse. They were not in a rage. It was fit punishment for rebellion, and I always knew it. Example: The last spanking I got was when I was eight. I'd been pulling my baby sister around on the floor because it made her laugh. Unfortunately, it also gave her carpet burns







and I was holding her by the wrists (not safe). My parents warned me that I could injure my sister, but I decided to continue doing it (out of thier sight, so they wouldn't know). She wasn't complaining--in fact, she was laughing and giggling and we were both having a grand time. But, one day, we were playing this game, and I pulled her shoulder out of it's socket!







: After my parents put her arm back in place (they're doctors) and everyone was calm (and in the meantime I was feeling *extremely* guilty for what I did!), they called me to them and explained that I was going to be spanked and why. I had physically injured my sister, after at least two warnings not to pull her around by the arms and being told why. The fact that she was having fun didn't matter. My parents saw beyond our momentary fun--that she could get hurt, and because of concern for us, they commanded me not to do it. Because I disobeyed them, and did it knowingly, I got spanked. They were not angry. All of us were sad that the whole situation had happened. They hurt for my sister's hurt, I hurt for her hurt and the fact that I caused it. Punishment was my due, and we all knew it. When the spanking was done, we were able to get back to loving and connecting and the issue was finished.
Needless to say, after that, whenever my parents warned me against something, I trusted thier judgement and obeyed.
Abuse?


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## Ms.Doula

No, I dont think so.... but thats my .02

And FWIW capauccino- Your memmory and this quote remind me of the way things were in my home. And I turned out Pretty well, If I do say so myself!









Quote:

"I'm sitting in the middle looking at both sides of the issue, and I see the points of non-spankers, and respect them. But having grown up around all kinds of families, some of them spanking, I've also seen that alot of the assumptions posted here are not correct. My own parents have been on both sides of the issue, and none of us 4 kids were damaged, we love our parents, and don't have any mental issues related to either being spanked or not spanked."


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## onlyboys

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom*
>
After my parents put her arm back in place (they're doctors) and everyone was calm (and in the meantime I was feeling *extremely* guilty for what I did!), they called me to them and explained that I was going to be spanked and why. I had physically injured my sister, after at least two warnings not to pull her around by the arms and being told why. The fact that she was having fun didn't matter. My parents saw beyond our momentary fun--that she could get hurt, and because of concern for us, they commanded me not to do it. Because I disobeyed them, and did it knowingly, I got spanked. They were not angry. All of us were sad that the whole situation had happened. They hurt for my sister's hurt, I hurt for her hurt and the fact that I caused it. Punishment was my due, and we all knew it.

Just curious, but do you really see the *need* for this spanking? Didn't the guilt you ALREADY felt indicate that you knew what you had done was "wrong"? Why the need for the negative reinforcement of what you already felt? Would you have done this again? I doubt it very seriously, as you stated that you already felt bad as they were tending to your baby sister...

Amanda


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## Greaseball

And what about kids who are repeatedly spanked and still misbehave, only worse each time? What do they need - more spankings? Harder spankings? I've never known a child who totally stopped misbehaving after being spanked. Usually, they go right on doing the same things that they got spanked for in the first place. And they learn to be sneakier about it.


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## cappuccinosmom

> Would you have done this again? I doubt it very seriously,

I don't know. I might have, might not have. I know that at other stages in my childhood, I was more likely to disobey when I was fairly sure that I could escape consequences (spanking or otherwise). My parents never commanded anything unreasonable. Only for my safety and well-being. Of course, being a child, I didn't think they knew all that much, but I see it now and i'm grateful.
I do think that the spanking was necessary according to our world-view. I had done something seriously bad, caused injury to someone else, and we don't see punitive action as bad in that case. I needed the spanking not only as punishment, but to know that while I had done wrong, I had recieved my consequence, been forgiven, and could move on. I still feel sorry that I did what I did (though my dear sister was so little she doesn't even remember it!) but because I "paid" for it then, I wasn't plagued with guilt and self-loathing, which could easily have happened (as I am prone to that sort of mood anyway). They didn't need to remind me of what I'd done later on. It was finished.

I think the big dividing point on this issue is world view. Since we come from a "fundie" Christian viewpoint, we're bound to differ from most when it comes to sin and consequences.


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## Aura_Kitten

Quote:

I know that at other stages in my childhood, I was more likely to disobey when I was fairly sure that I could escape consequences (spanking or otherwise).
... and you don't think there's a correlation between the lack of self-discipline you felt and the fact you were spanked? research has proven there is an extremely strong correlation between spanking and not being able to regulate one's own behaviour -- that is to say, children who are punished w/ spankings tend to keep on doing the stuff they've been spanked about as long as no-body is around, or as long as they can be fairly sure they won't be caught, whereas, children who are disciplined using other methods (time-outs, positive reinforcement, etc) tend to know what they've done wrong and keep on not doing the wrong stuff even when nobody is around. (this has been proven in many psychology experiements over the years.)

Quote:

because I "paid" for it then, I wasn't plagued with guilt and self-loathing
... personally i see this as a very unhealthy way to view it. that seems to me to prove that spanking may lead to an increased need for external punishment so one can move on (i'm thinking now of all my friends who self-harm for "atonement" every time they feel they've done something wrong).

forgiveness and self-acceptance should come from within.


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## PM

I'm feeling totally invisible on this thread, but I'll continue.

Can Cappucinosmom or Ms. Doula or one of you answer my above questions? What do you think when you read any basic psychology text and its stance on spanking?

I keep thinking of my lovely gentle disciplined dd (4). This child does not have one ounce of disrepect in her body. Her father and I have modeled respect from day one: We don't demand things of each other, we don't put each other down, we tried hard not to grab things from her or shout no at her. I don't think she even knows what disrepect would look or sound like. When she upsets me, she says sorry. When she wants something she mostly says please and thank you. She thanks me after every meal! And I have never asked her to say any of those. She doesn't blatantly disobey me because she realizes it disrupts the family harmony. When she does disobey you better believe there's a reason for it that I completely missed (wasn't in tune with her needs/an emergency situation).

I just don't get why children would need to be spanked into "good" behaviour.


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## sleeping queen

Parismama, you might consider that you have a child with a docile tempermant. Every child is different and responds differently to different discipline. Your post makes it sound as if each of us were a good role model that our children would just atomatically follow that. That logic is faulty.


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## PM

Sleeping Queen,

I am talking about the disrespect issue that so many of you pro-spankers seem to have problems with. And I do firmly believe that if you model respect in the home you will have a respectful child. But that does not mean you will not have a child who is willful or who expresses frustration.

My child was not a docile toddler. In fact, I often question my willingness to go through that stage again with another child. But her expressions of frustration were met with compassion, real understanding. She knows this. And I believe that is another reason we share a mutual respect for each other!


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## Aura_Kitten

Quote:

I do firmly believe that if you model respect in the home you will have a respectful child. But that does not mean you will not have a child who is willful or who expresses frustration.










and also consider that "respect" comes with maturity. i don't expect my 3 (almost 4) y.o. son to show me respect consistently, but i expect him to be gentle and compassionate most of the time and follow most of my rules.

yes, he is willful, and yes, he openly expresses emotion -- which i'm proud of. i would hate to raise a child that was afraid to show emotion or stand up for what they believe in.

he has *never* been a "docile" child. when he tantrums, things get thrown, people get hit and bitten, and his time-outs are lengthened to give him time to calm down. then we talk about why it's not ok to throw things / hit / bite. so far GD has worked just fine to guide him toward making the choices i want him to make. while it would certainly have been *easier* for me, in the short run, to spank him every time he tantrumed / hit / bit / etc, and come out with a more "calm, respectful" child... it would have also stifled who he is and taught him to repress his emotions and internalize his anger. that's not what i want for him.

bringing it back to the original topic... when, as a baby, he'd wiggle, i understood that was normal baby behavior. as a toddler, when he'd test limits, i knew it was normal toddler behaviour and used redirection and consistency to reinforce my rules, and positive reinforcement when he abided by them. there is never a reason to resort to violence on your children if you understand child development and basic child psychology... and the fact that people advertise switches made specifically for use with young children is nothing short of abominable.


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## momea

thanks - i never post but this was unbelievable - thanks again

Please withold your support of Home School Digest until they remove their advertisements for "The Rod". Hitting a child with a specially designed "rod" is sadistic and abusive. Having this advertisement in a homeschooling magazine just reinforces the popular opinion that those who choose to homeschool are religious nuts, and in this case, religious nuts who beat their children.
Sincerely,
Eve Bowers


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## lovemybaby

You're not invisible, ParisMaman, it's good to hear you! (Et "bonjour" a Paris et la belle France!)

It always saddens me to hear of how so many of us suffered being hit by our parents. A few decades ago, people really didn't know any better, and hitting children to get them to behave, and to punish them, was the norm in the US. More and more people are becoming aware of alternatives to corporal punishment, and over 40 years of research on the topic have shown many deleterious effects of hitting children: depression, anger, increased tendency to domestic violence and criminality, sexual problems, addictions. The pro-spanking crowd has not produced research to show ANY benefit to hitting children, other than "short-term compliance." Of course, if you hit someone enough (like the Pearls do), they'll eventually do what you want them to do, including masking their own emotions. Torturers and slave-masters have used this disingenuous technique for ages.

*** Stop "The Rod" *** http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org/petition-2.html

There is a problem with taking the Bible literally as being the inerrant word of God. When in Proverbs it speaks of beating a son and that he "shall not die" it is not exactly accurate. Children DO die from beatings sometimes; in the US hundreds of children die from corporal punishment. In Sweden, deaths from corporal punishment used to be common (and meted out in the name of religion). Since corporal punishment of children has been banned in Sweden in 1979, deaths from beatings have gradually diminished and the last few years have seen NO deaths from beatings in that country. What a beautiful thing for children! How lovely not to have the horrid news stories that we have here in the US about children being beaten to death.

Twelve countries have totally banned corporal punishment of children: Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Iceland, Germany, Austria, Croatia, Cyprus, Latvia, Italy, and Israel. Great Britain is set for a total ban within the next few months. Hitting children is illegal in Minnesota. In Canada, it is illegal to hit a child with an object, to hit a child under 2 or over 12, to hit a child who is disabled in any way, and to hit a child on the face or head.


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## asherah

Hitting other human beings is unacceptable except in self defense.
No exceptions.
Our children are human beings, not property.
We do not have the right to hit them.

Beyond that, spanking has been proven ineffective as a parenting tool. People who insist on continuing to do it must be motivated by something else.
If my religion advocated violence against someone I love more than anything in the world.. I would certainly have to ask some serious questions about that spiritual path.

Selling and/or using special tools for hitting children is the height of ignorance and/or sadism.


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## DebraBaker

My religion (Christianity) does *not* teach this.

Perverted authors and pastors have twisted verses in the Bible to say that it says what it doesn't say.

They have done this in the past with regard to slavery and women's rights.

Yes, it makes me angry that my G-d is shamed by this teaching.

Debra Baker


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## asherah

I was not indicting "Christianity" on this issue, Debra.. I know not all Christians believe this.
I was speaking to those individuals who justify violence against their children by citing religion.


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## Greaseball

I recently volunteered at a child abuse awareness event. There were life-size wood cutouts of all the children who died in my area from abuse last year. 22 of them, and I live in a small town! Most of them were infants that couldn't even walk. I wonder how many of the parents thought they were "just spanking" them. It doesn't take much force to seriously injure or kill an infant. One of them was only a day old. Exactly what did he do that was so wrong?

And, of course, this event only focused on those who died. It passed over those who became permanently disabled, brain-damaged, or had other serious injuries all in the name of preventing "rebellion."


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## loftmama

Not sure if this belongs here, but...

I followed the link to the article by no greater joy on self-control. I can hardly stand the writer's language. I was raised this way and it takes me back and gives me that sick, shamed feeling. I had to have lots of therapy to open my mind from such proud narrow-mindedness.

I also remember being spanked, belted, switched, etc. I don't think my parents ever spanked in a mean way. However, regardless of the parents' frame of my mind, spanking is very demeaning, shaming and disrespectful.

When the Bible speaks of "the rod" it is as an analogy to guiding sheep. The rod is generally used to touch the side of the sheep to physically direct him to stay on a certain path. This is much like re-directing in Attachment Parenting. When the toddler goes toward an outlet, physically turn him/her, or offer a distracting toy, etc. If you've ever been to a country and personally watched the relationship between shepherd and sheep, then you get the picture.

Shepherds lead and guide the sheep. They have to maintain a good relationship with the sheep so they won't turn and bolt. They don't hit their sheep; they use "the rod" to gently re-direct.

When my ds flagrantly disobeyed me the other night, I was horrified that he would be so bold about it and knew he was testing his boundaries. I had to check myself. Fortunately, I had just come from a wonderful yoga class where I learned that when you meet resistance to pause before you react, and breathe into the feeling before you deal with it (in this case, move into the position). I paused before I dealt out retribution to my ds for his direct disobedience. Then I quietly told him that momma was angry and needed some quiet time to decide what to do. After he repeatedly asked for a story and I repeatedly told him how disappointed and sad I was about his behavior and couldn't read to him for a while, he became genuinely sad, apologetic and cried. It was one of the most beautiful moments I've had as a parent. There was no rote apology, no fear of a punishment, no continuos rebelling. It was truly amazing. He snuggled up to me later, I think, in an effort to reconnect after his behavior. I was very moved by what the entire incident taught me. (Am I blabbing now?) It was a far better conclusion than any spanking or any other punishment (like: 1 less story, no story, etc.)

Okay, my point? Spanking and the ad for the rod is horrid, and I believe, truly something that would hurt God to know what His people do.


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## DebraBaker

Asherah,

In that case disturb the comfortible so there won't be as many disturbed children to comfort.

db


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## EBM

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loftmama*

When the Bible speaks of "the rod" it is as an analogy to guiding sheep. The rod is generally used to touch the side of the sheep to physically direct him to stay on a certain path. This is much like re-directing in Attachment Parenting. When the toddler goes toward an outlet, physically turn him/her, or offer a distracting toy, etc. If you've ever been to a country and personally watched the relationship between shepherd and sheep, then you get the picture.

Shepherds lead and guide the sheep. They have to maintain a good relationship with the sheep so they won't turn and bolt. They don't hit their sheep; they use "the rod" to gently re-direct.

Thanks for clarifying this for those who may take that scripture literally to mean pick up a rod and beat your child.


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## Greaseball

People will still interpret it in the way that suits them, though.









I've never known anyone who did not want to spank, then read the bible and discovered that spanking was the way to go after all. Most people who use the bible as justification probably would spank even if they were not religious. They just happen to find something in the bible to suit their own views.


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## Ms.Doula

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ParisMaman*
I'm feeling totally invisible on this thread, but I'll continue.

Can Cappucinosmom or Ms. Doula or one of you answer my above questions? What do you think when you read any basic psychology text and its stance on spanking?

I keep thinking of my lovely gentle disciplined dd (4). This child does not have one ounce of disrepect in her body. Her father and I have modeled respect from day one: We don't demand things of each other, we don't put each other down, we tried hard not to grab things from her or shout no at her. I don't think she even knows what disrepect would look or sound like. When she upsets me, she says sorry. When she wants something she mostly says please and thank you. She thanks me after every meal! And I have never asked her to say any of those. She doesn't blatantly disobey me because she realizes it disrupts the family harmony. When she does disobey you better believe there's a reason for it that I completely missed (wasn't in tune with her needs/an emergency situation).

I just don't get why children would need to be spanked into "good" behaviour.


Actually, ParisMaman- The reason noone replied to your request was because of the way it was worded.... And I quote:

Quote:

Could one of you pro-Pearlers (or pro baby-swatters) tell me what you think when you read (basic) psychology's stance on spanking? And could you give me the name of one child development expert/child psychologist that supports spanking babies. And since you probably won't be able to, what does that make you think? I'm since in wanting to know.

I am NOT a "Pro-Pearler" (have no clue what they teach-never heard of them before this thread) And I am certainly NOT a "Baby-swatter" Nor do I promote ANYONE Hittin/spanking/ect. A BABY! So, *NO* I cannot answer your question.


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## Greaseball

Quote:

Could one of you pro-Pearlers (or pro baby-swatters) tell me what you think when you read (basic) psychology's stance on spanking? And could you give me the name of one child development expert/child psychologist that supports spanking babies. And since you probably won't be able to, what does that make you think? I'm since in wanting to know.
You probably won't get an answer because those people don't listen to "ungodly research," as the homeschooling magazine put it.







:

I know there are a lot of christians who are against spanking, but the religious wackos just claim they aren't "real christians."







:


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## EBM

Why would someone design a whip especially for "flogging" children? It just seems so twisted and sadistic!

And what is a "pro pearler"?


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## Ms.Doula

For the record- I think the "Rod" in the article is discusting as well.







:


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## PM

Quote:

was the norm in the US.
I'm afraid it still is: http://www.med.umich.edu/1libr/yourchild/devnews.htm

Thanks Lovemybaby! I'm actually in Central Asia now...long story.


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## burritomama

merci, PM.

I'm passing this one on.


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## PM

BTW Ms. Doula - In my eyes to offer any form of support on a thread of this nature is, well, questionable.


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## Ilaria

I wish I had never gone to that site.









Quote:

As I was writing this I was interrupted by a child screaming. Deb is baby-sitting an eleven-month-old little boy. I let him scream for about five minutes, as I wrote the last lines of the above paragraph, and then I left my office and went to investigate. Deb was doing business on the phone-talking to a missionary, long distance. The child was clawing at the back door, trying to get it open so he could go outside. I picked up a switch and walked over to where he was conducting his scream-in. In a calm but firm voice I said, "No, stop crying." I didn't expect him to respond, but I wanted to establish the rules. When he failed to respond, I switched him twice on the only exposed skin-about three inches between his sock and pants leg. Again he did what I expected, what he does when his mother swats him-scream in defiance. But I have seen her swat him, and it never even gets his attention, other than a signal to scream louder. But when I switched his bare skin, he looked shocked and started to rub it. He continued to cry in protest, so I gave him two more licks on the bare leg. This time, he was convinced that I meant business. I know that he understood the issue, because he crawled past me, away from the door. Again I commanded him to stop crying, brandishing the switch. He stopped crying immediately, continuing to rub his leg while staring at me.
Sick, sick man.


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## lovemybaby

So the Pearls not only whip their own babies they whip other people's babies, too!! Monsters!!

My dh says these "Pearls" are the kind you SUPPOSED to throw before swine so they get trampled on









Thanks everyone for writing to HSLDA to ask them to stop promoting Home School Digest! What a disgusting organization! Promoting baby-whipping mags...sheesh

To complain to HSLDA: https://secure.hslda.org/hslda/feedback.asp

To complain directly to Home School Digest about their "Rod" ads and baby-whipping articles: [email protected]


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## Greaseball

So, Debi Pearl was supposed to be babysitting the child, and instead she was talking on the phone. Her husband, instead of attending to the child's needs, decides to whip him instead. (I guess babysitting is women's work?)

I would have a huge problem with a sitter who ignored my child to work on her own stuff.


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## Its Lagniappe

Quote:


Originally Posted by *playdoh*

They do include a 'safety tip', btw. Probably the usual eye injury warning. Can't be 'ages 3 and up'.

They also include a note that says "Manufacturer not responsible for misuse or accidents pertaining to this product." Which assumes there is a use. I can imagine none.


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## raleigh_mom

Thank you for bringing items like this to our attention! We are a homeschooling family with a 3yo and an infant, and I am just starting out in my search for homeschool groups, magazines, etc. I now know one magazine I won't even pick up to look at! They can certainly count on one less reader from Raleigh! I won't lie and say I've never spanked, but I'm not exactly in the market for a rod, either. Stuff like this just makes me feel



































:


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## Momma Aimee

bump


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## Spookygirl

I am sickened and appalled, and will be writing to them directly!


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## Quindin

OMG!!! NO WORDS can express how horrified I am. And the "comfort grip" for the person whipping the child???? Beyond belief


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## loftmama

In response to Iraqi prisoner abuse, Alice ****** refers to the whipping devices used on small children in her article. I thought some of you might like reading this.

"But the Internet is also full of advertisements for whips and other devices for punishing small children and making them into God-fearing individuals so that God will approve of them and give them His love."

The entire article can be found at the no-spank website:

http://www.nospank.net/miller22.htm


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## lovemybaby

I read Alice ******'s article; she is right on in pointing out that violence in one's childhood is connected with violence later in life. I've read all her books; I've just started on her last one "The Truth Will Set You Free." More than anyone else, she has convinced me something needs to be done about "The Rod" and baby-whipping mags like Home School Digest. Thank you everyone for writing to HSLDA about stopping the promotion of Home School Digest, BTW! It all helps!

I think I'll start a new thread about those baby whips! I've been working hard to get rid of those torture devices...

*** Stop "The Rod" *** http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org/petition-2.html


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## warriorprincess

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DebraBaker*
I think the pearls are like the people Jesus was referring when He said (paraphrased) It is better to have a millstone tied and thrown into the sea than to cause one of those little ones to stumble.

This is the face of evil.

Debra Baker

Amen. I am so happy you are out there, fighting the good fight on other Christian boards.


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## Icequeen_in_ak

I don't have nearly the time to read through the whole thread, but my first instinct is this.....

I'm pretty sure that the laws from state to state are the same and in my state, hitting a child with anything other than an open hand is considered child abuse!!! and I have confirmation from my hubby who works for a PD.

I can't believe that child advocacy groups haven't jumped all over this!!


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## LinzluvsGJ

This is horrifying. I can't believe something like this is even sold, let alone advertised or advocated by a supposedly Christian magazine. In all my years as a Christian, I have NEVER met someone who advocates hitting your child with a rod, hand, or especially whip!


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## chicagomom

Thanks for posting the link to Alice ******'s article. I think the prison abuse scandal in Iraq is bringing up a lot of really good discussion on where all this pent-up rage and cruelty comes from. I agree with ****** that it's a good time to evaluate how we are treating our own children.

I also just read a new post on askquestions.org relating to abuse of children in teen treatment centers. They said the prison scandal has raised awareness of all sorts of abuse going on at these places, and they are trying to capitalize on the light that is being shed on the subject to get treatment policies changed.

http://www.askquestions.org/details.php?id=209


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## Maeve

I had to stop reading at a point in this thread because I was getting way too upset. I was disgusted and on the verge of tears hearing about this and thinking of the poor kids who are being treated this way. I can't believe that parents can treat their kids like that. I want my kids to trust me, not fear me like I did my mother (and like my dh feared his father and still does to this day).

And...

Quote:

but I think to imply that spanking parents are all ticking time bombs that might decide to belt a child for no reason at any moment is totally out of line. And I don't think children have that perception, either. I know I didn't.
I did. I was always scared of my mom. I completely saw her as a ticking time bomb. Still do.


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## lovemybaby

Here are two more articles like the Alice ****** article, relating the abuse in Iraq to abuse in childhood:

http://nospank.net/riak103.htm
http://nospank.net/n-m05r.htm

I really envy those 12 countries where it's illegal to hit kids...the US is so backwards in this area...22 states in the US even permit hitting kids with wooden "paddles" in public schools...

*** Stop "The Rod" *** http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org/petition-2.html


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## Greaseball

I read one article someone posted in the Education forum (I think) about corporal punishment in Alabama schools. A 7-year-old boy was beaten so severely at school (for picking his nose) that he had to go to the ER. The boy's mother asked about pressing charges, and she was told it was not illegal for the school to do that to a child, but that if she as a parent had done it, she would be in jail.







What a messed up system.

My dh's teaching texts say that 1000 kids a year go to the ER for the punishments they received in school.


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## LinzluvsGJ

It was still legal in IL when I was in grade school. I remember my teachers having a big wooden paddle with holes drilled in them hanging by the board. I don't remember anyone ever getting hit with them though. It was outruled when my brother was in 4th grade, I think.


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## DebraBaker

They had paddles when I was in school, too.

If anyone touched my child I would work hard to restrain myself against beating the crap out of them and sue the crap out of them instead.

Big bullies picking on helpless little kids; if they had to face strong burley parents they'd think twice!! (or, better yet, try to hit one of *my* children and feel the burn of my child simply blocking their hits ("a block is a punch is a block" says Sensei)

db


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## UCMama2Sophie

i first learned about the pearls when my sister found their book on my brothers bookshelf. she was visiting him and his 10 month old dd and wife. she called me across the country at 11 pm crying and in shock at what she had just read. we talked for hours, mainly her reading me excerpts from the book. after our conversation i went to their website and was on it till dawn. my bro swears he had no idea where the book came from, some woman in his church he thought, and he'd never read it. he says he doesn't use such methods with his dd..but sometimes i wonder. he says things like "children don't need self-esteem, they need God-esteem. All feeling of self worth should come from who you are in Christa and nowhere else." He talks about breaking the will not the spirit...

call me crazy..i prefer to not break ANYTHING on dd...









and the worst thing, imo, if he IS using such methods...he's a minister and in a position to influence others...


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## 3_opihi

OMG!!!! I just found this thread and promptly wrote to HDSLA...

I can't believe this is happening in our country. I'm in such shock. And its no wonder homeschooling families get such a bad rap...because of freaks like this.

I'm going to do a little research, contact a few people. OMG, I just really can't believe this. I'll be back. I haven't even read the whole thread. I got to the part where someone said something like this wasn't a beating it was a chastening and almost threw up. Suddenly many other threads on MDC made much more sense to me.

You know the really scary thing about this is that the "chastening" or whatever the frick they call it - the beatings- are probably just the tip of the iceberg for those families. If you're sick enough to do something like that, you're sick enough to do other...things...know what I mean...


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## sleeping queen

Quote:

If you're sick enough to do something like that, you're sick enough to do other...things...know what I mean...
What you're suggesting is completely unrelated. Just because a person spanks a child doesn't mean they are sexually molesting them. These type of statements have no rational behind them and are pretty offensive.


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## Greaseball

Funny, sexual molestation is not what came to mind for me. I guess I just don't read sexual things into non-sexual situations.

(Or maybe that's what the PP meant after all and I'm just in serious denial of the sexual undertones!)

I agree these people are sick, as are all people who beat children. And this probably isn't the worst thing they do to them. If they are willing to go public with what they do, which is probably illegal, what might they be doing in private?


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## kimberlylibby

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
Who would want to sleep with someone who might decide to thump them at any minute?

Seriously, in the middle of the night, the cosleeping baby goes for the breast and BAM. It's just a trap.... you're supposed to go for the LEFT not the RIGHT breast. So BAM they whap the baby with a rod.

After all, they're all about setting babies up for failure. That apple thing kills me every time









Kimberly (whose sister is a proud Pearl mama who uses.... get this.... cut up strips of LINOLEUM as a rod)


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## gethane

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kimberlylibby*
Kimberly (whose sister is a proud Pearl mama who uses.... get this.... cut up strips of LINOLEUM as a rod)

Oh god, how can you stand that? Hearing that makes me glad to be an only child. That is just so sad. You must be heartbroken.


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## 3_opihi

Actually yeah, beating someone with a whip is pretty sado masachistic (sp?) to me, so I do think it has sexual undertones, although that's not what I was referring to in my statement. I just meant that this would probably lead to worse abuses.

But go ahead and read whatever you want from my words, I really don't care. And I'm not sure what you are saying, SP, are you defending spanking???


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## 3_opihi

Here's what they wrote:

For clarification, we do not print in our magazine the ad you are
referring to. The magazine that does run that ad is called Home School
Digest. Wisdom's Gate, publishers of Home School Digest, holds the
following position regarding child discipline:

"We have always spoken against child abuse and will continue to do so.
We have published numerous articles over the years explaining the sin of
disciplining children in anger. We believe that any violent harm,
emotional or physical, inflicted on a child by a parent is reprehensible
to our God. We do not believe, however, in the light of the teachings of
Scripture, that loving physical discipline of a child is abuse."

If you are a subscriber and have questions regarding their policies,
please send your comments to [email protected].

_I was recently disappointed to view an ad in your magazine for a
"chastening rod".

I believe in this situation you have to ask yourself, "What would Jesus
do?" Would Jesus whip a small baby or child? Would Jesus promote such
behavior? Think about it...

I can't believe that a magazine that promotes staying home with
children and strong family values would promote such abuse.

I will definetly not be joining HSLDA and I am spreading the word far
and wide to stay far away from your organization!_

The following statement was my letter. I take this to say that they don't think the "chastening rod" is abuse, but loving discipline of a child. Whatever...


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## Greaseball

Quote:

After all, they're all about setting babies up for failure. That apple thing kills me every time
Apple thing? Did I miss something? I've read about other ways they set their babies up, tricking them into misbehaving just so they can punish them later. Wasn't there something about shoving a child in the pond and then punishing him for going into the water?

I wonder what kind of abuses these people endured as children? You've gotta be really sick to produce someone who thinks babies should be hit.


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## Greaseball

"We have always spoken against child abuse and will continue to do so.
We have published numerous articles over the years explaining the sin of
disciplining children in anger. We believe that any violent harm,
emotional or physical, inflicted on a child by a parent is reprehensible
to our God. We do not believe, however, in the light of the teachings of
Scripture, that loving physical discipline of a child is abuse."

Just got your post...

Yep, these people are sick. They actually think there is such thing as "loving physical discipline." No matter that what they are doing is illegal in many states; it's "loving!"







I guess I'm not a "loving" parent because when my dc runs into the street I don't spank her.

I wonder what the _child_ thinks of loving physical discipline?


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## Ms.Doula

Does anyone (the OP?) care to EDIT since the Magazine And Organization we were blaming & writing to & boycotting Is **NOT** even the magazine the advertisment was In????


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## kimberlylibby

The apple thing... my sister does this... she got it from pearl.

Set two apples on the floor. Say "this is a good apple, baby" and point to one apple. Say "this is a bad apple, baby" and point to the other apple. If baby touches the good apple, applaud. If they touch the bad apple, spank them.

This is for 6-9 month olds. Sick twisted junk.

Want more?

Blanket training. Lay your 6-9 month old on a blanket. If they roll or crawl off, put them back on the blanket and switch them. It should teach them to stay where you put them so you can do "other things" and not worry about them "being sinful" and getting into things.

There's more but it might make me throw up to keep typing about it.

Yes, yes, yes, it bothers me that my sister loves this stuff.

It horrifies me.


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## Ms.Doula

Well, I have never read that book from the Pearls (nor any)
But If that is what they teach- then they are Baby beating, child abusing monsters! The "worst-case" of them all. The cream of the crop?







I know alot of parents that occassionally spank their child. But NOONE who would condone, (let alone *DO*) that!!!

PLEASE Don't let the Pearls use the *EXCUSE* of Christianity in this Horror!!
I pray it doesn't turn people away..... They are NOT examples for the Lords' teachings. They are the bad apples that they themselves speak of..... I cant believe this book is allowed anywhere!?


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## 3_opihi

I'm wondering what state they live in. Perhaps we should find out and do a little letter writing campaign to their local congressman. I'm betting they could do a little investigation and find that gasp....they illegally abused thier own children.

Heeheehee, the wheels are turning. I'm off to do a little more research and I'll be back later....

One more thing, there is no way in hell! I am going to sit by and let this crap go on. Is anyone else with me?


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## Greaseball

Quote:

It should teach them to stay where you put them so you can do "other things" and not worry about them "being sinful" and getting into things.
Perhaps they should consider a pet rock. They stay where you put them and no one cares if you beat them and call them sinful.


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## Ms.Doula

Yeah!! They're leading Christains astray and making the rest of us Look bad!!!


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## Ms.Doula

guess a playpen or a baby carrier is out of the question for them....


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## guestmama9924

this is hideous! Reminds me of a Christian woman I kicked out of our playgroup because she always carried a ruler ( for her 18 month old) and kept it in her hand at all times. She was taught that by her pastor - oh the love.


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## onlyboys

When I taught at a teen parent school, we had a child enroll who carried a worn leather belt around with her at all times. Her pastor told her that she should, so her son would know who was in charge.

I explained to her, outside of the classroom, that I wouldn't tolerate any form of hitting in my class, or even the threat of it. She had a fit that I was not letting her bring the belt to class. She told me that I was discriminating against her because we had different faiths, and *hers* let her hit her child.

I'm still sickened, but I'll tell you what, she never hit her baby in front of me. Not once.


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## Greaseball

Is it illegal to hit with a belt in your state? Because I'll bet she still does it at home.

I'm sick of people using their religion as an excuse to harm children. Not all religious teachings are protected by the law.


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## onlyboys

I don't know for certain, if it is illegal. I don't teach her anymore, and actually, she's been incarcerated for more than a year. Her grandmother is caring for her son, and I can only assume, teaching him the same detrimental notions about discipline.


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## Victorian

I think that this is an epidemic! I am hearing about it more and more. Maybe it is because the "Pearl" method is being taught at churches now.

Ms. Doula you should check out their website, they are indeed advocating this behavior.

They are in Tenn.

Mamamaya - SQ does advocate spanking.

I am up for writing to someone. Maybe if it is not illegeal, that should be our focus - lets make it against the law to ABUSE your children (whether you call it loving disciple [loving my ass] or not).

Now here is a question that I am currently struggling with...and maybe kimberlylibby will have some ideas...what do you do if someone that you know practices this? Like a friend or a business partner (or someone that is both)? If you contront them and they think that there is nothing wrong with it?

Victoria


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## kimberlylibby

Victoria....

I have confronted her, and it makes no difference.

I just try my hardest not to be around her. When she offers to babysit my child I say NO.

When I was at her house, my dd started going up the stairs (we have no stairs in our house) and she started screaming and yelling at dd (I was around the corner with my niece). Libby has never been yelled at. Libby was just hysterical, screaming and soooo scared. I went and rescued her and just said "sweetie, let's stay down here, we're not going upstairs today" and that was that.

My sister was appalled that Libby didn't "obey" when she yelled at her. I was just traumatized by the whole thing. My poor dd was SO petrified









All that to say.. I just try my best to keep my children away from my sister. And I try to "borrow" my sister's children and love on them. I took her dd to the farmer's market and whole foods last week and put her in the sling, and she was soooooo happy. She's 15 months and she just snuggled up to me and was SOOOO thrilled to be held! It was actually kind of sad....


----------



## Greaseball

Quote:

Like a friend or a business partner (or someone that is both)? If you contront them and they think that there is nothing wrong with it?
That would be the end of our friendship. At work, I'd keep our relationship strictly work-related.


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## onlyboys

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Victorian*
Now here is a question that I am currently struggling with...and maybe kimberlylibby will have some ideas...what do you do if someone that you know practices this? Like a friend or a business partner (or someone that is both)? If you contront them and they think that there is nothing wrong with it?

I, too, would end a friendship because of spanking. I feel it is abusive and I would not subject myself or my children to abusive behavior. It's not easy, and it sucks, but I cannot be witness to it.


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## 3_opihi

I would try to talk to the person about spanking, and maybe offer them some books on healthy discipline. If it was a Christian family, I would definitely offer them Dr. Sears, he's Christian right???

I think that a lot of times people that spank are extremely frustrated and just don't know what else to do. Or that is what they have always learned, and don't know what else to do. Now that doesn't make it ok, by any means, IT IS NOT OK, but, you can catch more flies with honey KWIM? Education is the means to end ignorance.

Now, if someone was hitting their child with a belt, whip, rod, strip of linoleum, licorice whip, I don't care what it is. I am calling CPS. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars. Let them deal with it. That is straight up abuse plain and simple.

Victorian, ITA with you. Let's stop crying about how awful and sick it is and DO something to stop it!!! I'm going to go look up Tennessee laws on child abuse, and find out who the local congressman are. If anyone wants to help me in a letter writing campaign please PM me.

One other thing we can do is find out the state these rods are manufactured in and write some letters to those congressman too...


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## JessicaS

The rods are manufactured in OKlahoma I believe someone stated and Oklahoma does not have any laws about that sort of thing.

Course...I suppose we could contact the OK Attorney General's office and see what they say..


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## OnlyMe

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ms.Doula*
Does anyone (the OP?) care to EDIT since the Magazine And Organization we were blaming & writing to & boycotting Is **NOT** even the magazine the advertisment was In????










Did that happen? I kind of jumped in to the middle of this, and am a little confused! What magazine & org. was originally mentioned?


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## Ms.Doula

Ahhh. To clarify-








I meant that We are jumping up and contacting/boycotting ect. the HSLDA when we need to be Yelling at the mag. it was published in .... Home School Digest.


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## lovemybaby

Home School Digest is the only magazine that advertises "The Rod" and they've received literally THOUSANDS of complaints. They won't budge. They believe in hitting children as being the "Godly" way to raise them and to force them to obey. You can call them at 1-800-343-1943 or email them at [email protected] if you want to complain to them. On the web, HSLDA is the only organization left that is promoting Home School Digest. Over a dozen sites have dumped this disgusting rag. While HSLDA's own magazine does not advertise "The Rod," they ARE promoting Home School Digest with a hefty discount.

The "Rod" makers won't stop making this torture device; Home School Digest won't stop advertising it. So what do you do? Trying to limit Home School Digest as much as possible has been doing some good.

*** Stop "The Rod" *** http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org/petition-2.html


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## UCMama2Sophie

This is what Michael Pearl has to say w/ regards to people thinking he is a horrible man...

*"You say, "What a mean man; I am going to report him to the authorities." It is too late. My children are all grown, happy, well balanced, successful, think I am wonderful, and planing on practicing the same training techniques on their children. Understand, because I was consistent with my children, I rarely needed to spank them. Because you have allowed your children to develop strong self-wills, you think that if you were as narrow as I suggest, you would be spanking them 25 times each day. The thing you do not appreciate and, without a good example, cannot fathom, is the power of consistent enforcement. When children know their limits and are assured that you will be consistent in enforcing them, they will quickly learn to live within the bounds you set. The tension disappears and is replaced with a secure sense of order and purpose. Righteousness produces joy. Children feel righteous when they are caused to live a life of discipline and obedience. Obedient children do not experience guilt or anxiety. They like themselves and feel that everyone else likes them as well. Obedient children feel successful and confident, and they will be creative and aggressive facing the challenges of education and social exchange. My children and the children of others who practice these Biblical principles are proof of the rightness of the things I have said. If you feel that your permissive approach to parenting is more compassionate than mine, I am sure you have tension in your home, and you don't exchange as many smiles with your children as I do with mine. Your "compassion" leads to contention, whereas my firm discipline and speedy chastisement leads to joyous fellowship. If you don't see it that way, you are in need of further instruction. Don't take a battle stance until you have investigated further.

Parents, go after the little foxes. Aggressive parenting, administered with a smile, will produce the best kids under God's big heaven."*

Ugg...


----------



## Greaseball

Quote:

"You say, "What a mean man; I am going to report him to the authorities." It is too late. My children are all grown, happy, well balanced, successful, think I am wonderful, and planing on practicing the same training techniques on their children.
What an ass. Did he deliberately wait until all his children were grown (and past the statute of limitations) to make his child abuse public?

Maybe we could report his children to the authorities, if they have children yet.

I wonder if Michael Pearl also has a wife-training (beating) book out...


----------



## 3_opihi

Hey there everybody!

Thanks for the PMs. I'm going to try to get back to everyone later this afternoon.

As far as contacting the OK Attorney General, that seems to be our best bet. I mean, in the sense of going after the actual rod makers. I think what we'll need to do is contact some local (OK) children's watch/ advocacy groups and then get a petition going. As far as I know Attorney General's are most apt to listen when its coming from people in their own state, KWIM?

Ok, so come tomorrow I'm going to be making some phone calls, and I'll get back to you all.


----------



## UCMama2Sophie

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
Maybe we could report his children to the authorities, if they have children yet.

I wonder if Michael Pearl also has a wife-training (beating) book out...

He has 3 grandbabies already...his youngest, Laura Rose looks very much like my dd and when I read about her or see her pictures it breaks my heart. Debi Pearl (Laura's Grandmother) writes how it pains her when she has to switch Laura's thighs or hands...but she knows it must be done....sigh...


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## Greaseball

Quote:

Debi Pearl (Laura's Grandmother) writes how it pains her when she has to switch Laura's thighs or hands...but she knows it must be done....sigh...
This is another one of those lame excuses that spankers use. "Oh, this is going to hurt me more than it hurts you...I wish I didn't have to do this..." As if they really have to and they can't just not do it.


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## steff

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pie*









do some christians really believe that following in jesus footsteps involves

BEATING CHILDREN AND BABIES???

Oh yeah wwjd, beat kids? uh huh yeah right. I am so pissed off.


None that I know!!! I hope you don't think this of Christians. It's got to do with the individual and nothing else as far as I am concerned. I didn't have time to read all of the threads.

Steff


----------



## Viola

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UCMama2Sophie*
Debi Pearl (Laura's Grandmother) writes how it pains her when she has to switch Laura's thighs or hands...but she knows it must be done....sigh...

From the advice I've read that she has given to others, she doesn't really have a choice. She has to do what her husband tells her to do. If a mom is conflicted about a certain practice that her husband wants, like letting her child cry it out in another bed, the problem is with the wife. The child will not be obedient if the wife has doubts and doesn't trust her husband. The problems are put back on the woman. It is sick and twisted.


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## DebraBaker

Another way this is sick and twisted is grandparents are supposed to *spoil* their grandchildren!!!!

I thought everyone knew this.

Sick sick.

I cannot imagine hitting my granddaughter the thought makes me sick.

Debra Baker


----------



## UrbanPlanter




----------



## lovemybaby




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## lovemybaby

Please sign this new petition against "The Rod!"

** http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org/petition-2.html **

It's to Governor Henry of Oklahoma where they make these ghastly whips. I read up on him and he's a really good guy and very progressive. He stopped the execution of the Mexican man on death row, and is into providing better education and health care, and seems to care about children's needs. Getting his attention on this "Rod" problem could really help! And he sure needs to know about this ugly business going on in his state. He'll probably be shocked...!


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## Kinipela79

Done!!


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## sohj

Yup. Check.


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## UrbanPlanter

signed it. thanks!


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## aussiemum

Been lurking. Ditto on the signing. Hope they don't mind I'm not Christian!


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## JoshuasMommy

I have sat here horrified while reading this entire thread. This is sick...I DON'T believe for one second that God condones any of it. And anyone who can believe the bullshit these people write and teach about are just as sick in my opinion. I signed the petition. I just wish there was a way to do more to stop this abuse. My heart breaks for all the children in the world who have less than loving parents. And don't bother writing me back to tell me these parents do love their children. I look at my ds and am so thankful to have been blessed to have him in my life...even more when he is over zealous. It is in those moments when I learn the most about myself. When I am able to define "unconditional love".


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## steff

I haven't read the whole thread but I haven't read anyone condoning this.
There is actually some people that do? I am a christian and you are not allowed to beat your children. Some of the stuff in the bible gets taken out of context. So... It all depends on how much patience parents have and how they raise their children. It is not a christian practice. i am a christian and "NO WAY".

It is really sad people have babies and do this. I seen an older child get slapped for touching the mothers purse in the store. The mother hit his hand really hard and said "don't touch things that don't belong to you" totaly embarressed him. She said next time she won't be so nice. Ugh. I wanted to say something. But she probly would have hit me!!!

Sad really sad. I even seen one Mother spank their child like 4 times. That was so not right.!!!!

I repeat it is not a christian practice. As Far as I am concerned it is work of the devil on those who are weak. Satan always works on the weak christian. Naturally. There is no reason for beating your children. NONE.

Steff


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## Annie7

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LinzluvsGJ*
I remember my teachers having a big wooden paddle with holes drilled in them hanging by the board.

My middle school principal had one... on the handle were the big bold (supposed to be amusing) words "The Board of Education".

I definitely oppose all things written and adhered to by the Pearls and their followers. In my opinion, infants can not reason through thought process "right or wrong" and I certainly do not think "wiggling or reaching" is wrong.
That being said, I will say that when my daughter was 2 or so... I told her "no" many times about reaching for the knobs on the stove, and gave her something to redirect her attention. One day with alot of stovetop cooking going on, she reached right for those knobs, and the front burners were all on! I smacked that hand away from that stove as quick as I could, saying "NO! HOT!!" It was meant to protect her from fire, from boiling water, from a permanent scar...not to injure her in any way at ALL. It also seemed to be the only incident that detered her further from grabbing and twisting those knobs. Right or wrong...I felt that it was for her own safety. There have been other incidents like that, and It is my believe that if a swat on the bumper and an emphatic "NO" is gonna keep a child from doing something that will cause injury, then I'd rather keep her safe than visit her in an ICU or worse.
I do not believe that puts me in the same catergory with the Pearl's or their groupies. I am wondering if there are those of you who think it does.
In my opinion what I have described sounds like "correction" or "teaching" as they put it. What THEY describe sounds like heartless, vindictive brutality.

P.S. My daughter is now 11 and helps with small cooking jobs in the kitchen and she is careful and vigilant with the stove. I don't think I scarred her emotionally, and I must not have scared the bejezus out of her either....she's still wanting to cook stuff.


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## LinzluvsGJ

Annie, I don't think it lumps you with the nutcases at all. You weren't hitting a child for power which is essentially what it seems the wackos are doing-- hitting a child so they can feel more in control, for their own powerful feelings rather than the good of the child. Honestly I don't think of you swatting your child to keep them from seriously hurting herself as hitting, I see it as trying to get a point across after numerous other attempts. I dunno how to explain it. We don't plan to spank our children, either, but in a case like that, a swat on the butt to get it across to my daughter that I don't want her seriously hurt after attempt after attempt to get my point across in other ways may happen.
This would also only happen however, after my daughter was at an age where she could reason. Not as an infant, like she is now. I certainly would NEVER swat her currently as an 11 month old who is just curious about the world, and really doesn't understand "no".


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## Greaseball

I would choose to keep an eye on the child and remove her from potentially dangerous situations ahead of time. There were several months when each time I went into the kitchen, bathroom or garage, dd went into a playpen. Now she's old enough to be around when I'm cooking or cleaning, but only with careful attention.

So hitting a child to teach fear of danger can be avoided, but no, it's not the same as hitting for fun or to teach some crap about god.


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## OnlyMe

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovemybaby*
Home School Digest is the only magazine that advertises "The Rod" and they've received literally THOUSANDS of complaints. They won't budge. They believe in hitting children as being the "Godly" way to raise them and to force them to obey. You can call them at 1-800-343-1943 or email them at [email protected] if you want to complain to them. On the web, HSLDA is the only organization left that is promoting Home School Digest. Over a dozen sites have dumped this disgusting rag. While HSLDA's own magazine does not advertise "The Rod," they ARE promoting Home School Digest with a hefty discount.

The "Rod" makers won't stop making this torture device; Home School Digest won't stop advertising it. So what do you do? Trying to limit Home School Digest as much as possible has been doing some good.

I'm confused!







: (no surprise, LOL) So we're supposed to write to the Home School Legal Defense Association about this rod? They don't have anything to do with the rod other than by promoting Home School Digest, who does advertise this thing? Why not write to the company that makes it? What is their website & email address? Let's take it to the source!







(By the way, I am floored at the idea of hitting kids with this rod thing, esp. babies!)
***
edited to add that I went to HSLDA's website, and couldn't find anything about the magazine above! Your first post has a link to another website, is the other website associated with HSLDA? (sorry, I get soo confuzed! LOL)


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## Annie7

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
*teach some crap about god* .

They were also beating infants to teach about God?

That's certainly no way to teach anything, especially religion.

(I do happen to believe all that "crap about God").


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## loftmama

Annie7, there is a mom I know who has grown children already whom I very much admire. She has always had a no-spanking policy, which included signing papers at the school restricting their punishment policies. However, she did tell me that she agreed that spanking was okay ONLY if it was a life or death situation. She said her son (who was 13 at the time) had been spanked only once in his life when he ran out in the street. ITA with her philosophy, though, thankfully have not had to act on it yet. At least, in theory, I think it's a great philosophy. Incidentally, this discussion had come up b/c someone at school had spanked her child: a very-well behaved, honors, smart kid, whom a teacher had a grudge against. She was a teacher, too. Off Topic, sorry.


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## steff

Quote:

some crap about god.
I have never ever ever heard about this!!!!!!

Steff


----------



## Greaseball

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Annie7*
They were also beating infants to teach about God?

That's certainly no way to teach anything, especially religion.

(I do happen to believe all that "crap about God").

From what I've seen here, a lot of christian moms don't see the need to hit in order to teach about god's wrath or the evils of sin, so I call it crap when people teach their children that they need to hit them in "the lord's name."


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## steff

Annie7

What you described is not beating your child.

Steff


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## jennay

I have no idea how I missed this thread until now...(maybe it's because I don't visit activism very much)

Anyway, anytime I read the Pearl's I feel like throwing up. I am a Christian and we are to treat others as we would like to be treated and to stirve to be like God. What the Pearl's advocate is not how God Himself treats us.

I have more to say but Ben is awake from a nap...gotta go.


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## lovemybaby

Maybe we should all complain to Amazon.com about the Pearl's book, "To Train Up a Child!" They dropped Home School Digest like a hot potato when people started complaining about that "Rod" ad in it, maybe they'd drop the Pearls, too! You can write to Amazon at: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...513840-6915153
Michael and Debi Pearl - "To Train Up a Child"

I checked Barnes & Noble and they don't sell "To Train Up a Child" except occasionally as a used book. A friend gave me a copy because she thought I should know that this horrible stuff is actually in a published book; I can hardly stand reading it though. Gotta keep a barf bag handy...!


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## onlyboys

OMG. That's their book?

My husband's "friend" recommended it to us. She told us it would help us "break the spiritedness" of our son. I told her, calmly, I thought, "That his spirit was *just* fine."

She said that she really respected the Mennonite faith and this is how they raise their children. God, now I want to throw up. I had no idea.


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## warriorprincess

I read somthing interesting at www.nohitting.org. The "rod " can be translated as "Torah". So Christians are to use the Word od God to discipline their children, and does not mean hitting them with a Bible. One of the most awesome Christian mommy's I know is non coercive (I am not there, I admit) and her daughter who is 5 really looks at things in light of WWJD. She is a great kid to be around.


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## JoshuasMommy

Are these people Mennonites?


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## DebraBaker

I think they're former Amish, plain folk.

The Amish aroung here don't spank, the Mennonites do.

Some Mennonites aren't like that but they are here (very legalistic and conservative)

Rod in Hebrew is "Shebet" which can be translated as stick or authority.
I think the writer of the Proverb was using "shebet" as authority rather than a literal stick used for hitting young children.

db


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## cappuccinosmom

I don't think the Pearl's have ever been Amish. They've mentioned a couple times that Michael was a military man some years ago. However, they do live in an Amish community and it seems there's a lot of teaching/learning about child training between the Amish and the Pearl's church.

My conservative Mennonite friends spank. The more liberal ones that I know don't.


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## lovemybaby

Michael Pearl first got his ideas about "training" children when he saw an Amish man repeatedly hit his baby boy when the poor child just wanted to get off his lap. The father hit him dispassionately on the leg every time the boy tried to move. Pearl was fascinated by this (sick evil man), and thus started his ideas on whipping even the youngest children to obtain total obedience.

He often uses the Amish as examples in his writing, such as how hard the women work while still taking care of all their children with little or no help. I used to think the Amish were so peaceful, so down-to-earth, but no more. They're very patriarchal, and whipping and beating children, from what I've read, is not uncommon. They seem crime-free because they don't keep statistics. They just "shun" for a few weeks when an Amish man rapes a woman, for instance. Punishments are all up to the Amish men who run the churches.

*** Stop "The Rod" *** http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org/petition-2.html


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## lovemygirl

I just sent Amazon.com an email pleading for them to remove the child abuse book, as I called it, from their shelves. I ask, it is illegal to abuse a dog or cat but not a child? How can any publisher publish this crap!?! UGH!! Its so sad that people will actualy read this book and be brainwashed into believing it.

So sad.


----------



## Ms.Doula

I have attended a Non-Denominational church all my life (Calvary Chapel)..... Now we attend Neighborhood church (the denomination is Mennonite Bretherine) But I dont think it has anything to do with Amish- We are far from Amish :LOL And I SURE THINK Those Pearls are SICK!!!! uke


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## DeadheadGranny

Slides Manufacturing makes the baby whips, PO Box 506, Checotah, OK 74426; owners of Slide's are Mr. & Mrs. Clyde Bullock .

Drop em a line, I have.


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## Mommy2Brittani

Quote:


Originally Posted by *playdoh*
This is not correct. The Christian Bible commands men to love their wives as Christ loved the _church_ , *not* the world. Big difference. Christ doesn't try to make the world without spot or wrinkle (like husbands should do for their wives).

It depends on the version of the bible. I have seen versions of the Christian bible that advocate _husbands love your wives as Christ loves the world_ It just depends on the version. But this is not under the debate here.


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## lovemybaby

I sent a complaint to Slide's Manufacturing, too. 'Course they're the ones who say 50 years of research showing the bad effects of hitting kids is "unGodly research!!"
















*** Stop "The Rod" *** http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org/petition-2.html


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## Greaseball

Is there such a thing as "godly research?" I thought all research had to be unbiased to be considered scientific.


----------



## DebraBaker

No, "g-dly research" is that which supports their belief system (note; there is not 'g-dly research' because all the research supports the non spanking position)

Very self-serving.....or do they confuse the self with g-d?

DB


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## Milkymommi

uke ...enough said


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## DebraBaker

I just got kicked off a "Christian" mothering board because the moderators were in favor of whipping babies.

Yuk.

Sort of like the internet equivelant of putting your hands over your ears and yelling "lalalalalalalalalalala I can't hear you" instead of seriously looking at such an important issue.

DB


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## phathui5

Debra,

You too? I got kicked off of A Trip to the Woodshed yesterday. Was it that one?


----------



## PurpleBasil

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mommy2Brittani*
It depends on the version of the bible. I have seen versions of the Christian bible that advocate _husbands love your wives as Christ loves the world_ It just depends on the version. But this is not under the debate here.

What versions state 'world' instead of 'church' for that particular verse?


----------



## steff

Quote:

I just got kicked off a "Christian" mothering board because the moderators were in favor of whipping babies.
You know I would really like to know what religion these christians are?

I feel that using their specific religion rather than saying christians would be better. Or I don't know.

I am a christian and I do not know anyone that agrees with whipping babies.

I just don't want people to think this is a christian thing.

It's not it is an individual thing!!!

Quote:

What versions state 'world' instead of 'church' for that particular verse?
I only know of it being "church".

Steff


----------



## DebraBaker

Not the actual trip to the woodshed place but a Christia Mothering discussion board (pretty close to the actual title of the board) Some innocent mother asked what is Christian discipline (she was inclined toward gentle parenting) and a regular suggested the trip to the woodshed site, same regular was exhorting mothers to start 'em young.

Among other reasons I cited against starting 'em young (like babies aren't supposed to sit still (for which I was given an example of a Down's syndrom child being able to sit still because she was "trained early" I suggested that this philosophy is not only not in the Bible it is misrepresenting Jesus and Christianity to those who would happen to read this bile. (not to mention the poor children themselves.)

Please understand this philosophy does not represent most Christians. Fundamentalism is the loudest shrillist voice but it isn't the concensus of Christian thought.

Debra Baker


----------



## lovemybaby

From my experience it really seems true that it's the fundamentalist Christians who are into whipping babies and children. Not all fundamentalists think this way, but among fundamentalists you find the most hitting and the most advocacy for hitting as a form of discipline. When I first started getting into homeschooling I received lots of catalogs from Christian homeschooling companies. I was really surprised at all the hitting they promote in their parenting books. Then there's the HSLDA which really wants to protect parents' "rights" to hit their kids, and is promoting a baby-whipping mag (Home School Digest). A homeschooling conference in North Carolina just last week featured a lecture by a pro-spanking author, who gave instructions to the audience on exactly how to hit little kids. Ads for "The Rod" are given out at homeschooling fairs. The fundamentalist homeschooling movement tends to be really into this type of thinking, and this is where the "dark side" of homeschooling is coming from.

*** Stop "The Rod" *** http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org/petition-2.html


----------



## TiredX2

Thanks for posting the petition.


----------



## littlehiphuggers

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
I have a feeling that if this "chastening" were done to an adult, it would be illegal. It's only OK to chasten defenseless children.







:

Well said!! Why do people not seem to get this point!?!


----------



## CraftyMommaOf2

Why does it say product review at the top of the ad? Please flippin tell me that doesn't mean they have tested those products? I'm off to read articles now...deep breath...in.......out. I'm sure the couple with that site "a trip to the woodshed" support this. Anybody else read that thread? FTR, this is one of the most frickin sick, twisted, disgusting things I have ever seen. I've gotta stop coming to activism :LOL


----------



## lovemybaby

I've talked with the Home School Digest people and they really support the use of these "Rod" whips. They say "We appreciate your support of these companies as they support and work with us" in their on-line ad for 'The Rod.'"

uke

Skeet Savage runs Wisdom's Gate which publishes Home School Digest, along with her daughter Grace Savage and her son Israel Wayne. Her daughter told me she was whipped as a child. Her son is 28 and has 3 young children, a 4 yo, a 2yo and a baby. He is the one who chooses what ads to put in Home School Digest, so he's deciding to put the ad for "The Rod" in each issue. So I'm sure his little children and baby are being whipped too. Their whole mag reeks of this baby-whipping, start 'em really young, obey parents or else, type of philosophy. You can complain at 1-800-343-1943.


----------



## concernedparent

Here is a link to an article in the Boston Globe about a woman who is trying to have the Rod banned.

Boston Globe link


----------



## BFandHS

There is more info about this and Susan Lawrence's activism work at http://www.kjsl.com/~lindav/activism.htm

The Boston Globe article starts at Bookmark #13, I've been posting the whole saga at this page.


----------



## lovemybaby

There's a petition to sign against this "rod" at http://stoptherod.net


----------



## our veggie baby

I looked at that Pearl whatever web site last night and oh.my.god.

It is TERRIBLE...what makes it even worse, is peppered in with the disgusting, sexist, racist, homophobic, child beating stuff are a few actually interesting and decent articles---one about never shaming your children if they wet the bed etc...I only say this because a reasonable, logical person might see that somewhere as the first article they read and get sucked into their disgusting, sadistic world....

One article I read made me S I C K (among others)...I guess because we are having a daughter...it was called "what kind of wife and mother will your daughter be" or some nonsense----they train girls that is ALL they can or should be---but one bit was about the Mother recoilling in shock and remorse when her daughter's father "commanded" the little girl to do something and she didn't "obey"...the Mom was like. "dear God, did I teach her that???????" *shocked*

It was just wrong...
People like that (imo) make me absolutely sick...I'm sorry, they do...and what is scarier, is that they don't have signs on thier foreheads "we beat our infants"...they just blend right in, could be your child's preschool teacher, the "nice" lady at the grocery store, anyone...
*shudders*


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## mistymama

This is what I wrote them ... not that it will make much of a difference.









General Feedback

Candace
Whipping babies & children?
I am shocked and sick over the lastest issue of your magazine which advocates not only hitting your children, but advertises paddles and tools to beat them with.

The Jesus I know is loving and kind ... I can hardly see my Jesus whipping a child with a paddle. Discipline? Yes. Hit? No. Hitting or whipping your child is an uneducated and ineffective, not to mention damaging way to discipline children. Even the AAP's official stance is AGAINST spanking. It's cruel and abusive.

The thought that you are spreading this heinous method of discipline (which is actually child abuse) and spreading it as though it's what Jesus would have us do, makes me sick.


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## Milkymommi

LOVEMYBABY!!! Thank you for that link... I've been searching everywhere trying to find the site!!


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## MuseMom

I have never heard of this until finding this site. I am absolutely sickened and signed the petition.


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## georgia

My former friend (of over 20 years) started whipping her 10 month old ds with a wooden spoon. Why? Because he wouldn't listen to her when she told him to stop climbing the stairs. I asked if she would consider installing a baby gate or following behind him, so when he fell, she'd be there to catch him. No, she was following the advice that children should listen to their parents, and if they didn't they should be punished by whipping.

Did I mention he was 10 months old?

I cried, and I still get emotional about this. Notice we are former friends.


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## our veggie baby

...and let me just mention that most of these people are people who wouldn't even hit their dogs with a rolled up newspaper

Not that I am advocating that AT ALL,, I am an avid animal rights activist, just pointing out that children and babies often get less affection, respect, understanding and allowance for "misbehavior" than house pets even...
Seriously, I have known people who won't do a thing at all if their dog chews an expensive pair of shoes, but won't hesitate to hit their children for say, touching something shiny on the table...it's sick...


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## DebraBaker

In the early '80's someone gave me a book entitled, "How to Be the parents of Happy Obedient Children" by a Roy Lessen (or is it in) and he advocated people not childproof their homes when they had children.

You were supposed to walk around slapping them every time they touched the tempting "no-no's".

I can't believe people teach this crap. Immediately I thought if I had a disabled husband or mother or child or even houseguest I would rearrange the house to take their needs into consideration. Why wouldn't I treat a baby with the same respect.

Sick sick sick.

I think (I may be mistaken) that if you search for the Pearls' book on Amazon you may get Roy Lessen's book as "you might also like".

Sick.

Debra Baker


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## Nursingnaturalmom

ITs the Pearls I believe. They believe in "switching"

In their book to train up a child, they talk about egg'n a child on to do something wrong, then hit him to tell him that was wrong. Its SICK


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## cappuccinosmom

I'm just curious,

Where does one find racism in the Pearl's stuff?

Spanking, yes, "training" little ones with a switch, yes, conservative ideas about male/female roles, sure, opposition to anything other than 1 man/1 woman marriage, absolutely. And I've seen and understand why people might hate them.

But racism? That's a new one to me. A link to the writing that prompted it might be helpful.


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## DebraBaker

I don't know anything about the Pearls being racist.

I do, however, believe their teachings regarding whipping babies and young children is downright evil and misrepresents scripture.

I also believe some of their teaching regarding the subjugation of women (most particularly allowing a pediphile back into the home and marriage bed) to be equally evil.

Just because the Pearls haven't put pen to paper regarding race does not aquit them of the obvious evils.

Debra Baker


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## cappuccinosmom

I wasn't implying that not being racist makes them any better. :LOL

It doesn't bother me at all when people see facts, decide something is wrong, and decide to fight against it--whether I agree or not, depending on the issue, I appreciate reasoned arguments and I love debates







. It does bother me when people add something that isn't there, or misrepresent someone in order to make them seem even worse. And it doesn't help the argument much--if I hear lots of horrible claims against someone, and then find out that one of them is false, I'm quite likely to start questioning the other ones, and my frame of mind isn't going to be "They're evil" anymore but, "I wonder what else has been misinterpreted or misrepresented?".


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## mommyofshmoo

Thanks for those links, very useful.

I was suprosed when I read in the boston globe article that 2/3 of americans approve of spanking, 1/3 use implements and that 20 states allow corporal punishment in schools.

I'm literally floored.

I grew up in NY and corporal punishment was already not allowed in schools in the 70's there. (I could tell the nuns who taught us were at a bit of a loss.)

Jennifer


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## BFandHS

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cappuccinosmom*
I wasn't implying that not being racist makes them any better.... It does bother me when people add something that isn't there, or misrepresent someone in order to make them seem even worse.

I totally agree. I even went to his site and looked for any sign of racism. I could not find anything. I also would like to see a link to whatever it was that caused her to call him racist. She got me curious.


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## ryleeee

this is so disgusting.
i just sent a mass email out to my friends.


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## bamamom

I read the link"Why not to train up a child" on a pp's siggy. I must say that I remember that same feeling, of not showing how I really felt about something because we were Required to have a good attitude. My parents didn't always spank in rage , nor were they always out of control. But they did take it too far, at least when I was older. I can remember the last time they did it, I was shattered on the inside. My life was a total wreck, and i was within a couple of hours of suicide. They had NO IDEA!!!!!! That really bothers me to this day, sometimes. I have actually taken the time to read every post on this thread, and I have to admit I actually know alot of folks who read and do the Pearls books. Training sessions are what they call it. Whether staged or spontaneous, they take every opportunity to train or correct. A dear friend with 7 kids who does spank revolts at the pearls staged training sessions. She says she will not set a child up to fail!!! THE END!!! And I hurt to think of those who would hit/spank/switch a 6 months old for touching something.


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## DebraBaker

Written by a very conservative group. It's a bit long but well-written and well researched.

http://www.equip.org/free/DF230.htm

DB


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## our veggie baby

I'm the one who said they were racist based on a line I read in one of their articles which I can't for the freaking life of me find---maybe I percieved racism when it really wasn't meaning to...the article had nothing to do with race, I think the actual line was something like *keeping with our kind*--but further reflection, they may have meant "christian" or "baby-whippers" or whatever "kind" they mean, and I took it as a connotation to race...

Oh well, they may not be racist, in which case, congratufreakinlations to them---they are no less sick, disgusting, abusive, sadistic people who deserve no less than jail (imo)...but hey, at least they aren't racist...


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## BFandHS

Quote:


Originally Posted by *our veggie baby*
, I think the actual line was something like *keeping with our kind*--but further reflection, they may have meant "christian" or "baby-whippers" or whatever "kind" they mean, and I took it as a connotation to race...

An easy assumption to make. I can totally understand where you are coming from. That *does* sound like something that they would say, and they would probably mean people who think like they do.

Sorry to frustrate you. I agree that their teachings are despicable and horrible. The very mention of their names nauseates me. But I am the type of person who likes to keep my facts in order, it makes me feel safer.


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## DebraBaker

"Their kind" is more "likeminded" people like them tend to stick together because they seem less extreme than if they were to "mingle" with people less than Christian.

They did suggest you are raising a Nazi if you don't whip a bullying 3YO.

DB


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## JoshuasMommy

Did anyone read any of the comments people made when they signed the petition? If so, did you see 897? I want to puke right now! I was trying to see my own signature which I haven't been able to find. Tina


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## DebraBaker

I am number 150

db


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## sept04mama

That is absolutely horrible. I had no idea things were this bad. About the not babyproofing, my SIL is trying to get me to do this. She says it 's more important to have your house how you want it than to have a house set up for a baby's sake. Her son just walks around the house saying "no" to every object he sees. Real positive.


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## loftmama

debra - that's weird. you're no. 26 on my petition list. i had to go find no. 897 and read it. horrible.

nak


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## BFandHS

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loftmama*
debra - that's weird. you're no. 26 on my petition list.

I think she meant the petition at http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org/petition.html


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## sahmof2girls

Wow, I can't beleive that!!!!! That is so crazy!!! I didn't even know such a thing was out there. I signed the petitions too.







Those poor babies








Megan


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## DebraBaker

Yes, it was the other petition.

I just read that other one and how horrible.

We don't live in a civalized society.

db


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## Milkymommi

I've signed both petitions but it's been days and I still can't find my name. I was thinking that it would need to be screened first and then it would show up but now I'm wondering. What do you think ?


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## BFandHS

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Milkymommi*
I've signed both petitions but it's been days and I still can't find my name. I was thinking that it would need to be screened first and then it would show up but now I'm wondering. What do you think ?









You are number 809 on the one at http://stoptherod.net/
You don't appear to be on the one at http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org/petition.html, maybe you should sign that one again. I suspect a glitch caused your sig to get lost. Unless I was searching wrong.

_In case someone does not know: To search for your name, use Ctrl F while on the page. (hold down ctrl and F at the same time)_


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## BFandHS

I just got an update from Sue Lawrence which you can read at http://www.kjsl.com/~lindav/activism.htm#MarkeyDobson

If you live in MA, this is especially important.


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## DebraBaker

Scroll down to the bottom and read the linked article in which parents were advised to read the Pearls' book to address special needs children and children with attachment disorders.










db


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## BohoMama

if there was a god s/he would strike these sick sons and daughers of bitches infertile.

I signed everything and wrote a "review" for amazon.

I"m going to try and be the best and most patient mama i possibly can because my son is going to meet a lot of messed up people out there and they are going to want to hurt him.

This makes me really appreciate my home in the Czech Republic, the most atheistic country in the world. Lot of people do spank their kids here, but at least they don't justify it with religion. They can eventually be led to reason. I don't harbor too many illusions about America's huge population of Christian wackos.


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## hjohnson

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BFandHS*
I totally agree. I even went to his site and looked for any sign of racism. I could not find anything. I also would like to see a link to whatever it was that caused her to call him racist. She got me curious.

Here's some racism for you. This is straight from Mike Pearl's mouth written in his magazine.

"None of my daughters or their husbands asked the state of Tennessee for permission to marry. They did not yoke themselves to government. It was a personal, private covenant, binding them together forever-until death. So when the ********* have come to share in the state marriage licenses, which will eventually be the law, James and Shoshanna will not be in league with those perverts. And, while I am on the subject, there will come a time when faithful Christians will either revoke their state marriage licenses and establish an exclusively one man-one woman covenant of marriage, or, they will forfeit the sanctity of their covenant by being unequally yoked together with perverts. The sooner there is such a movement, the sooner we will have a voice in government. Some of you attorneys and statesmen reading this should get together and come up with an approach that will have credibility and help to impact the political process. Please contact me when you do and I will assist with publicity."


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## Greaseball

I don't know if that's racist...







Homophobic, sure, but what do you expect.


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## Charles Baudelaire

They're sure putting the "whack" in "whacko."


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## DebraBaker

The "perverts" mentioned are gay people.

Not racial minorities.

DB


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## BohoMama

I had a brainstorm last night after signing those petitions. On the one where you can post comments I wrote that the ROD looks like S & M gear.

So, I'm thinking....let's get it some bad press by associating it with fetish subcultures! We will never re-educate these folks into gentle, secular, liberals, but we can turn their fear and hate against them.

Does anybody know anyone in a bondage/S&M community, network, organization, publication, etc? Is there another thread where I could take this question? Imagine if THEY started advertising the ROD for use in adult spanking fantasy play. A creative adwriter/web designer could juxtapose the original advertisement with saucy photos or ads for giant diapers or whatever other props such folks use. There could be testimonials about how a spanking with a real Christian ROD feels so much more RIGHTEOUS or HURTS MORE than with any other implement.

Ladies, what do you think? Can we do this?


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## Victorian

I wish that I did have contacts...what a great idea.

V.


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## sadie_sabot

I'm laughing at the idea to make the s/m connection, but please tread gently. Folks who are into s/m and related stuff are not bad people, are not sick, etc. but often are stigmatized. We are you. so, if you take this approach, please do so in a way that does not further bigotry and stereotypes about people who engage in power play with other consenting adults.

thank you.


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## DaednuSO

RE: do some christians really believe that following in jesus footsteps involves
BEATING CHILDREN AND BABIES???

Actually, some of them do, yes.

I mean, CP has a continuum - there's always going to be the "what's wrong with a swat on the backside when warranted" vs "absolutely under no conditions ever hit a child".

But there's NO justifying something like this - it's sadistic and there's got to be something seriously wrong with anyone who even begins to consider something like this.

Of course, some people need to be woken up to the fact that the "rod" in question in the Scripture quoted is like a shepherd's staff to herd, not an implement with which to whip.

Dear God.


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## User101

I just want to reiterate that you can go to Amazon.com and do a couple of things
1. Leave a review for this nasty book
2. RATE the reviews- where it says "was this review helpful to you" click "yes" on the negative review (1 star) and "no" on the positive reviews. The more "helpful" a review is, the more likely it is to end up on the opening page- we want people seeing how bad the book is, not someone singing its praises
3. At the bottom of the page is a suggestion box- click on the one objecting to the book based on violating what they can sellt, and let them know how disgusted you are.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/cus...=ATVPDKIKX0DER


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## User101

Also, here is a spanking poll on beliefnet
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/66/story_6690_1.html


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## Victorian

Sadie - I didn't think of it in this way, and certainly wouldn't want anyone to do something that would further maginalize a group of people. but you must admit that it would bother them to no end because of the way that THEY view people that are into S&M.

V.


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## phathui5

I did the suggestion box and asked amazon to drop the book. I gave the negative reviews good ratings and vice versa. Took the spanking poll on beliefnet. Now, what else can I do?


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## LizD

The thing is, these people aren't really Christians. They like to call themselves such, and feel all superior, and some poor ignorant people follow these guidelines thinking that's what Jesus wants or some other nonsense. But the people spearheading all this crap, they're playing the Romans, and having a mighty good time doing it, from the looks of things. And frankly seeing some of the absurd things like this that people in the US either take seriously or turn a blind eye to, it makes me understand just why the Caesars thought Christianity was a scourge to be contained.









And I read the sample chapter of the Pearls' book and they do indeed talk about the manipulation of a newborn who cries when you put him down, and how you should "switch" a baby who wants his mama when he's on Daddy's lap. Unbelievable!

Unfortunately many homeschooling associations, esp in Florida where I live, are populated by religious lunatics who ascribe to these bizarre notions, and homeschool because they want their children to be as ignorant as they themselves are. I homeschool in FL because the schools are terrible (and also filled with religious lunatics who disrupt evolution discussions in grade two!) and I want my daughter to learn *more* about what's happening in the world, not less.


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## sadie_sabot

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Victorian*
Sadie - I didn't think of it in this way, and certainly wouldn't want anyone to do something that would further maginalize a group of people. but you must admit that it would bother them to no end because of the way that THEY view people that are into S&M.

V.

Yup, understood. i think it's a decent strategy, but to be undertaken carefully.

rock on,

s


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## bamamom

I'm here mamas!! The pp about likening the rod to s/m stuff is a decent point to make. that's one thing that really started bothering me...(Keep in mind i'm not computer savvy when you read the next part) I put in discipline or spanking once into a search engine and OMG!!!!!! Can you imagine the garbage that popped up?? Go ahead and laugh at me, but I didn't sleep for days!! I expected to find child training articles/ research and got S/M stuff. Some of it was so bad I couldn't sleep for nights. I have learned to be much more specific when I search on the NEt!!


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## gethane

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bamamom*
I'm here mamas!! The pp about likening the rod to s/m stuff is a decent point to make. that's one thing that really started bothering me...(Keep in mind i'm not computer savvy when you read the next part) I put in discipline or spanking once into a search engine and OMG!!!!!! Can you imagine the garbage that popped up?? Go ahead and laugh at me, but I didn't sleep for days!! I expected to find child training articles/ research and got S/M stuff. Some of it was so bad I couldn't sleep for nights. I have learned to be much more specific when I search on the NEt!!









Don't go searching "interracial" either. Long long ago, 8 years ago, when I first got online, I thought surely I could talk with other interracial couples with biracial/multiracial kids (at the time was still married to my ex). So I typed in "interracial" on hotbot search engine, and bam, there was my first exposure to internet porn. I was traumatized







.


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## User101

When I was teaching preschool, my class name I inherited was "The Busy Beavers". The internet was fairly "new" and I wanted to search for some clip art for our daily report. So... I looked up "beaver." HUGE mistake

That said, ladies, I am bowing out of this discussion. Reading the Pearls, even peripherally (sp?) is effecting me in very bad ways, so I will leave the battle to mamas who are better able to not let it get to them.

Blessings on you all- you are doing important work!

Annette


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## DebraBaker

Could somebody, within the context of good taste, please tell me what spin can be put on "beaver"? or pm me if it must be more graphic.

I plead ignorance.

DB


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## sadie_sabot

beaver is slang for vagina/pubic area.


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## User101

Just DON'T google it!


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## DebraBaker

db


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## spero

We always got a huge giggle out of Beaver College in your home state, DB! :LOL


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## DebraBaker

They changed the name to Arcadia U.

db


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## spero

No wonder!


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