# January 2013 Rockstar Mamas



## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Welcome to the Rockstar Mamas thread! Our wonderful group of mamas started following each other in the Charting to Avoid thread over in fertility. Eventually we created "The Whatever Ladies!", a safe place for those of us who were not trying to prevent pregnancy, though not actively trying to conceive either. Spread out over a year, we all got pregnant and had our current babes- several whom are over a year old now!

We made the decision to switch to Rockstar Mamas, after a conversation about how each and every one of us was a Rockstar in some way, for living and thriving through the parenting challenges thrown our way every day. Feel free to join us in our thread, but be warned, the conversation moves fast!

Not really rules but something to consider if you join:

1. Need to be chatty

2. Know that we are all vastly different from one another but we've become friends so we respect those differences. We are vaxers and nonvaxers; homeschoolers, unschoolers, public schoolers; run the gamut from vegan to paleo; some of us want more kids, some don't, and some aren't sure...but we all manage to really get along and come together on things we DO agree on.

3. Aren't afraid to ask each other the hard questions or point out the obvious when/if we want advice!

Member List:

lyeterae ~ Baby boy born February 2011
annie ~ Baby girl born April 7, 2011
Barefootscientist ~ Baby boy born May 30, 2011
AnnieA (due 7/18) ~ Baby girl born July 17, 2011
MarineWife (due 7/30) ~ Baby boy born July 25, 2011
Baby_Cakes (due 8/16) ~ Baby boy born August 16, 2011
MovingMomma (due 8/9) ~ Baby girl born August 18, 2011
akind1 (due 9/28) ~ Baby girl born October 11, 2011
mom2one (due 10/23) ~ Baby boy born October 21, 2011
jeninejessica (due 12/01) ~ Baby girl born November 29, 2011
Kindermama (due 1/6) ~ Baby boy born January 1, 2012
Euromama

akind1 going around again ~ Baby BOY!! due 3/6/2013 but betting on 3/11 or 3/19

December thread: http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1369192/december-2012-rockstar-mamas


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

All the babies that started with us are 1 year old now and one is getting very close to 2!


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

It's hard to believe this is the year the babies turn 2!

And yeah - that's why I pulled up pictures, because I FEEL huge. but I don't know that I actually look any bigger. I think maybe because it's more belly, and I'm carrying less weight (albeit not a whole lot of difference - 5lbs or so) less elsewhere?

10 days until my maternity portraits! I am really excited. She also did the babywearing ones, and I WILL get some nursing ones this time around (Norah had just weaned the last time she did a bunch of nursing session portraits)

Where is everyone today?


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

I'm here. Still trying to recover from our middle of the night playdate two nights ago! Spent an hour on the phone this morning with my insurance company trying to sort out old bills. Drove me to tears. Literally. Took Ava to the children's museum and then went to grab a piece of pizza for lunch. We passed John Grisham and he and Ava waved at each other. It was very funny. Ava and I took a nap and when we woke up, she was being so funny. She said "Poop." and I said "Really? You pooped this morning. Where's the poop? I don't see any poop." She lifted up her shirtand looked down at her diaper and said "Poop?" It was so cute!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I forgot to say that I also agree that antibacterial soap is unnecessary and probably harmful. I hate that I can't buy plain hand soap at the grocery store anymore. Everything is antibacterial.

I'm here, too. I get my computer first thing in the morning and then not again until I kick the boys off it. I can check stuff like Facebook quickly on my phone or Kindle but I don't like to post much from those. I prefer the larger screen and keyboard of my laptop.

I've also been busy trying to plan Ethan's party and doing this refinance stuff.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

I'm here! i'm just on my phone and it's so hard to reply!!!

I think I'm FINALLY getting better. I'm not going to overexert myself today tho, I think that's why I relapsed!!

A - huge hugs and mad props to you on the counseling. It must be SO frustrating to hear him be like, oh now I know how you feel when you've been TELLING him this whole time. At the same time, it's going to be eye opening to him now that he knows how to listen to you. Hopefully he will take the steps to respond to what he learns, and things can start improving.

And I agree with L that we know Sean. He is a good father and a good man. We know you are venting and all this stuff is perfectly safe here with us. I feel comfortable posting what I post about DH as well b/c you all know him and me, and I know you won't judge him solely based on what I say.

K - Oh my goodness, you def have a BOY belly this time! Such a basketball compared to N! Home stretch, woman!! Start crackin' on that to-do list! How much time are you taking off of work?

L - hugs on the teeth and sickness. And I can't believe you met John Grisham. I don't know if I would recognize him if I saw him, lol.

AFus - Chris's family cat had to be put down. Everyone is a mess. My MIL is beside herself. She was 19 and was such a sweet kitty, but her body had been shutting down for awhile and they were doing all they could to keep her comfortable as it was. Monday her organs just gave out and they had to make the choice to put her down or take her home and let her die there. They made the right choice, i think. It would have been too hard and unfair to let her suffer. So. I'm going to meet my MIL and BIL at whole foods for lunch to get her out of the house. She's hearing cookie's meow and seeing all her things and it's just too hard for her. She doesn't know we are meeting for that reason but that's good. I don't want it to feel like a rescue mission. Just want to distract her enough to make her smile.

What else?

Oh. The only time I use hand sanitizer or the like is right after Nora leaves preschool if she doesn't wash her hands right away. I'm not big on it tho and I'd prefer just hand washing with simple soap (not antibacterial). I don't buy antibac soap. Chris does. It's one of the things I think is important one way and he argues the other side of it. He will fight with me on taking all my abx so I don't create resistant strains, but always buys anti bac soap.







Handwashing is better IMO than any hand sanitizer for the reasons Kat brought up.

Ok. Off to tidy up before we go out to WF and hopefully grab another cup of coffee.

Oh - quickly. My kids have both been having lots of bad dreams lately. Waking up and crying, Nora running in to my bed. Anything you guys can think of I can add or take from their diet/day to maybe help with this? It's got to be something! Idk why all of a sudden they both would be having bad dreams like nightly? My dreams have been vivid lately too...hmm..


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

My boy belly with Gabe I think was hidden behind extra fluff - with him, I just felt fat. I didn't take many pics that pregnancy. And I was a good almost 20 lbs heavier with that one.

bad dreams: can melatonin help with that?

MW: forgot to add - of course this is a safe place to vent! I don't vent too much about my DH here, bc, sometimes he's bored and reads MDC LOL. (mostly he looks in the health and spirituality forums, but he likes to read what I write sometimes too) Since we plan on meeting you all some day this year, he likes to kind of get to know who you are too.

My mini vent - I really, really, wish when Norah woke up crying he wouldn't tell her to shut up. I don't say anything in the moment, because it would defeat trying to get her to go back to sleep, but I need to bring it up later, just trying to fnd a tactful way to do so. . . .

My friend had her baby! not nearly as long a labor as her first, thank goodness (you never know with inductions) - little bitty - 6lbs 1oz - a 39 weeker (and considering mama had the most severe hyperemesis I've ever known anybody to have, it's no surprise she's not a chunker) and another IRL friend will finally get to hold her NICU baby today! I'm thrilled with all of these squishes! I need to see if I have any spare girly yarn and can crochet a quick hat for the wee one . . . .

Annie - Ava is just too cute! glad she gets to meet some famous people


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I don't know about the dreams. My kids have scary dreams periodically but not usually consecutively. Ethan got nightmares from watching the Walking Dead but then wanted to watch it again.







Could they have inadvertently seen or heard something that scared them?

I'm freaking out a little bit about my back. You all know how it's been bothering me. There's this spot right in the middle that seizes up for no apparent reason other than that I moved. Last night I asked Sean to rub some muscle cream on it. While doing that he noticed a spot of discolored skin about 1-1.5" wide and 2-3" long right where my muscles seize. It's not a bruise. I haven't fallen or banged it. It's just slightly darker than the skin around it. I'm thinking maybe I should see a doctor but I don't have a regular PCM. I'd have to start as a new patient somewhere and that's a hassle and takes so long. Do you think an OB/GYN who is also authorized as a PCM could deal with it or should I just go straight to a specialist? I can go to a specialist without a referral but I don't know what kind.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

I'd see somebody - what kind of doc specializes in muscle?


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

When my big kids have had issues with nightmares, it's been because they've seen something on TV that they were not able to process. Usually, I should say.

MW, I'd go to a walk-in urgent care type place. Ava's godmother is a family physician in one of tjose places and they see regular patients too, not just urgent situations. At least start with a GP and see what they recommend.

It's funny because we have a fair number of famous people that live here and John Grisham is usually hard to recognize. He must have had a meeting yesterday because he was relatively dressed up. He looked like the pic on the back of his books. I see Sissy Spacek at Whole Foods all the time and Dave Matthews lives here when he isn't touring. I usually see him in Barnes and Noble. He always looks a little sad if people aren't noticing it's him.









Got the christmas tree taken down and out of the house. I'm thinking about doing some rearranging this weekend. I also need to get a big plastic bin to put some of Ava's toys away in the girls' room so we can rotate through stuff. There's too much out right now and I feel like she has too many choices so she plays with nothing, you know?


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

We have no famous faces here. It's a good thing, probably.

Need to take the Christmas tree down. It will be put away before the new baby is born, I promise!

Ah, too many choices! That happens a bit upstairs, because my mom loves to buy toys. But she usually picks ones they do really enjoy playing with - and ones that don't make noise or require batteries - I am so sleepy today.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I keep forgetting to post this. I'm pretty sure I Oed on cd28, same day as last cycle. It would be very interesting if my cycles suddenly became regular even if they are still a bit long.

My Ovulation Chart


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

I want to meet famous people! No fair. I even went to LA and stood outside the Chateau Marmont for like 15 min to just catch a glimpse, and NUTHIN'!









Too many toys - O I HEAR YOU! LOL! I put most of the toys away, honestly. Yeah, they love them, but you know what? They'll still love them in 3 or so months when I rotate them! It's hard but do it when they are asleep and they usually forget about them. Then they are so happy when they see them! LOL.

It's QUIET!

We had a great evening. My BF came over with her kids and man, it was just so fun to have girl talk and let the kids play, and no stress and just wine, laughing, good times! I so needed it!

Chris hasn't even left NYC yet so I'm enjoying some me time guilt free! Love it.

MW - I too think you should go to urgent care. It isn't like an ER, it's for normal issues like you're describing. I go to urgent care for all my sinus infections and stuff, as well as for emergencies (like when I needed my stitches). I hope it's nothing but some bruising.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I don't have time to wait for hours at an urgent care place. I might call tomorrow to see if I can get an appointment at the place I used to. I searched my insurance website for PCMs and didn't like anyone who was listed. No wonder I don't have one. There were several doctors but they all work at one of two different practices, neither of which I like.

Whew! We just did some refi stuff that has got me stressed out. We initially applied with Navy Fed, which is who we have our loan with currently. I then decided to call Quicken Loans just to see what kind of deal they could give us. Both loans are essentially the same. The monthly payments have a difference of only $4. The big difference was in whether or not we'd need cash at closing, maybe. The Navy Fed papers had closing costs of around $6700 but by federal law they cannot roll more than $5000 into the loan so it would appear as if we'd need $1700 in cash at closing. However, the person at Navy Fed didn't mention that to me.

Quicken gave us essentially the same loan with the same interest rate except the monthly payment is $4 more. But, we won't need any cash at closing. They got our house appraised at just under $199 whereas Navy Fed had it at only $169. We had to pay $500 to go ahead with getting official approval for the Quicken loan. We don't need to pay anything for final approval of the Navy Fed loan but $500 is worked into the closing costs for appraisal and flood determination that is not in the Quicken loan closing costs.

Now I'm not sure if we can ethically send in all the signed papers for Navy Fed. I asked and although it took going around in circles a bit and finally saying, "Look, you are not giving me a straight answer!", was told that we aren't required to accept either loan until we actually sign the closing papers. And, we have 3 business after closing to change our minds without penalty. Our plan is that I will call Navy Fed tomorrow and ask about cash at closing. If they say we won't actually need any, Sean will fax them the papers and then we'll see what the final papers from each say. Otherwise, we'll go with Quicken because we don't have any cash to bring to closing.

So, I feel like my head is spinning.







I don't know which way is up and which loan is better. I do know that I don't like Navy Fed. I feel like they misled me with the original loan by talking me out of getting a VA loan and then refusing to let us refinance until the federal government came up with the HARP program and basically forced them to offer it to people like us.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> I don't have time to wait for hours at an urgent care place. I might call tomorrow to see if I can get an appointment at the place I used to. I searched my insurance website for PCMs and didn't like anyone who was listed. No wonder I don't have one. There were several doctors but they all work at one of two different practices, neither of which I like.
> 
> ...


If I need to go see Ava's godmother, I get up early and make sure I'm there about 10-15 mins before the office opens so I'm one of the first ones in.

All that money talk gives me a headache!









Baby_Cakes, I'm glad you got some time with your BF. Sitting, drinking wine and listening to the kids play is an EXCELLENT way to spend the evening!


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

MW: Ryan bought a house? (sorry -saw a status you commented on, and wasn't sure??) Refi stuff is stressful. My parents have refi'd almost every year - it helps give them cash, actually, to improve the house, and save on the mortgage. I think it's with New Day Financial. They have even come to the house on Saturday to do closing. No cash at closing is awesome.

Carrie - hooray for good times!

Norah had some awful liquid poos last night. poor baby. everytime she turned over I coudl HEAR her the liquid in her tummy sloshing. she seems in better spirits this morning.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> If I need to go see Ava's godmother, I get up early and make sure I'm there about 10-15 mins before the office opens so I'm one of the first ones in.


Haha! That is NOT going to happen here. It's not just me sitting and waiting. It's me sitting and waiting with 3 little kids and trying to get through an exam with 3 little kids. It just isn't going to happen.


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

Ok, here I am again.

There has been so much going on that I have no idea where to start.

Mainly its my 10 y/o DS is going through the pre-teen stage. He is doing amazing at school but at home has been mouthing off and just very, challenging?

Anyways.

We rotate toys too. Sometimes I do go through all the toys and throw away the broken ones.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

i hate to say it, EM, but that's typical at that age. one way to look at it is that he has to keep his emotions stuffed and in check all day at school and needs a release once he's in a safe place, home. course, that doesn't make it feel any better, but in a way it's a compliment to you that he feels safe enough to behave that way.


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> i hate to say it, EM, but that's typical at that age. one way to look at it is that he has to keep his emotions stuffed and in check all day at school and needs a release once he's in a safe place, home. course, that doesn't make it feel any better, but in a way it's a compliment to you that he feels safe enough to behave that way.


That is a great way of looking at this! Thank you MW!!


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EuroMama*
> 
> I find marriage hard, but marriage with children even harder.












nak

My DH needs more tools. he is very quick to time out, or say enough, stop or i'll leave (the room). He doesnt attempt to read all the parenting stuff i do, and relies on my ideas/opinions. he disagrees with some but is willing to try. I yell more than he does -- but i'm working on it.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

I don't expect DH and I to parent identically. I like us to be consistent with some things (like rules) - but often what works for me, might not work for him as far a discipline technique, and vice versa. I could yell untill I'm blue in the face some days and it won't get through to my kids. (Norah especially). My dad, or MIL, or FIL? barely a firm tone of voice, and she breaks down in tears. Why, I don't know.

I think the important thing is you have the same starting point and ending point - Start - no violence towards siblings perhaps - and the end result - Everyone has used gentle hands towards eachother today. (being that's the goal). What happens when something breaks down in the middle - if I choose to separate the kids and get them working on different activities, and DH decides to do sort of a "time in" with Gabe . . . It doesn't matter. Now, we have gone down the road of corporal/physical punishment and found it just doesn't work for us. Some families will tell you different - but in our house, it just increases the violence. Everybody then thinks it's ok to hit. On one hand, I'm sorry I or DH ever hit our son, but on the other, having done it, and found it doesn't work, it's far more effective when explaining to grandparents, etc, WHY we don't hit. It's not just another of the weird hippie things we do, there is good reason.

In the moment, I try to let DH parent however he's going to - it's more damaging to the entire situation I think to undermine him. After though, I do try to talk about how it could have been handled better. DH does the same for me, when my temper gets out of sorts, letting me know that I could have handled myself better.

We are none of us perfect, I've still got very young children and a lot to learn as they get older and challenge us in all kinds of crazy ways. While I disagree with a lot of the nanny shows, one of the big takeaways from it is that she doesn't change the kids, she changes how the parents react to the kids - That makes all the difference. (remind me of this later, please, when both of mine start hitting each other over the head with sticks)

. . .Man I am tired. this pregnancy is wearing me out. Baby is active as mexican jumping bean, and everything else is fine - but I'm so glad I'm doing this now, while I'm still on the younger side!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I came with a kid when I married my dh so he deferred all of the disciplining to me unless I specifically asked for his help. Usually, when I asked for help it was because I felt like I was going to lose it and needed dh to take the boy out for a while. I was more mainstream, following the reward/punishment system that is supported by so many so-called experts. DH was fine with that, although neither one of us hit the boy.

Fast forward and I have moved way beyond that but dh is still stuck in the mainstream. He's very much a person that just goes along with whatever is normal or common or whatever. He is not too hard and fast on anything with disciplining the kids. He says he doesn't see anything wrong with spanking, for example, although he wouldn't do it himself. He still defers to me, although I think he feels at a loss much of the time. He knows I don't want the kids punished or manipulated or coerced but he doesn't know what else to do. A lot of times he ends up doing nothing. I have tried to give him ideas of what he can do. I have tried to show him by example. He just doesn't seem to get it. He knows what he knows and, if he can't do that, he won't do anything.









We don't butt heads too much on that, though, because him not doing anything at least means he's not doing anything that will get me upset.







We have a kind of different situation, too, I think. Because my dh is gone so much he has to defer a lot to me. I'm the only one here to do things with the kids most of the time. He's kind of like a visitor.


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

Dang it. I was editing this post for typos and then it was all erased. *slaps head*


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

.


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

I'm here, reading along. I don't know =what= has been filling our days, but it feels like it's been such a busy week! The funeral for DH's grandfather was today, so I feel like maybe things will get a little bit back to normal. I work two, maybe three, days next week. And morning shifts too. That'll be crazy.

I got super sick after we got home today. It came on within an hour, and I feel like i have the nastiest flu ever. Blah. Just waiting for it to pass.


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *onetwoten*
> 
> I'm here, reading along. I don't know =what= has been filling our days, but it feels like it's been such a busy week! The funeral for DH's grandfather was today, so I feel like maybe things will get a little bit back to normal. I work two, maybe three, days next week. And morning shifts too. That'll be crazy.
> 
> I got super sick after we got home today. It came on within an hour, and I feel like i have the nastiest flu ever. Blah. Just waiting for it to pass.


Feel better soon!! Flu seems to be going like wildfire.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

On no, FBS JJ! I think my cold (on round 3) is FINALLY ending. I'm hoping hoping HOPING!!

This was a really long week. Everyone is saying it. Glad we get the weekend now! JJ how is work going overall? Are you all adapting ok?

EM - Be gentle with yourself. I could see myself jumping up all mama bear if my child was being threatened, even by his daddy. I HAVE to stop undermining DH. While he isn't violent, he's manipulative, and it triggers me about my childhood. This book I'm reading, How to Stop Yelling by Laura Markham is hitting so many nails on heads. I'm overwhelmed with sadness and triggers from my childhood, and I see them a little more clearly now. An example. Nora will ask DH to play with her. His response, "I will, if you let me put you to bed tonight." or "Sure. If you tell me you love me." OMG it makes my skin literally CRAWL. Sometimes he is even more nasty. If she is throwing a fit or upset, he will just say, "Stop NOW or I'll leave you in here. Do you want to be alone?"

Last night I was making dinner, and they were playing together. They love to do physical rough-house type play. He was holding her and pretending to drop her, and she was laughing hysterically, saying, "do it again!" So he did it a bunch of times, then he needed a rest. She was like, "One more time!" and he said, "Ok, I'll do it again IF you let me put you to bed tonight." She frowned. I stepped in and said, "Daddy, that doesn't make much sense. Don't put an ultimatum on playing with your daughter," and he got mad. He was like, "I really don't even want to hear it from you."

So a moment or so later, I apologized and said I was wrong to step in. But I did explain that it was a huge trigger from when I was little to hear I'll do X if you do Y. I feel like it's an unfair way to treat a child. I said I wanted him to think hard about it before doing it again, but that I get that my issues are MY issues and I'll try to stop butting in while he is being his own parent. He said he was sorry and understood, and didn't realize. I hope he stops doing it. It's really hard for me to see/hear.









EM or anyone here is the book if you're interested. It's REALLY helping me not to yell. http://www.amazon.com/Peaceful-Parent-Happy-Kids-Connecting/dp/0399160280/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1357990457&sr=8-1&keywords=how+to+stop+yelling+laura+markham

Ok so help me process something.

Nora's school does summer camp and I was kind of banking on her going, at least a few days a week. I found out yesterday it's really $$$. It's more than her normal tuition (which I suppose I should have thought, but didn't), and if anything, she'd prob only do 1/2 the summer. The letter they sent home doesn't tell me how much it costs for half a session, BUT it says it's only for ages 5-10. She won't be 5. I first have to find out if she can even attend! Then find out the cost for 1/2 the summer.

And then I have to think about if she's going to preschool another year, or if she's ready for kindergarten. If this IS my last summer with her, Idk if I even WANT to send her to camp a few days a week.

And then we might move and she'll need to switch schools anyway, and that for some reason is making me really sad. Will she do prek 4 in another preschool again (as a 5 year old b/c she turns 5 in october) or will she go to kindy next fall in a new district?

I have so many unknowns and I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed.

I drove past one house yesterday and ruled it out. chris is going to start laying tile today! Hopefully he gets it mostly (or all!!!) done!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

JJ ~ I hope you feel better soon. I saw on the news yesterday that there saying there is a flu epidemic in Massachusetts.

EM ~ I had a similar thing happened with my dh and my oldest (who is not my dh's child). DS was yelling at me and dh thought he called me a bitch. DH grabbed ds by the shirt, pinned him against, got right in his face and told him in a very nasty, angry, threatening voice to never talk to me like that again. I stepped in and don't regret it one bit. The really sad part about all of that was that my dh didn't even say what dh thought he did. I would step in any time that I was afraid my dh might hurt my child. If I'm afraid, I can't imagine how scared my child must be and it's my job to protect him from anyone and everyone. If I don't, I am undermining myself with my child. He will not trust my love and protection as much anymore.

You are not undermining your dh by stepping in when he's out of control like that. Yes, I consider that type of behavior from a parent as out of control. Anytime an adult puts their hands on a child in anger or in a threatening way, the adult is out of control. Your dh is undermining himself by losing control like that. That's his responsibility, not yours. The only thing he is teaching your son is that might makes right, that it's ok to use physical force to intimidate others and make them do what you want.

I, personally, think the same principle applies to an adult (Dad or Mom) who attaches strings to behaviors that they should do just because they love their children, like playing with them. I agree, Carrie, that it is wrong for Chris to say things like that to Nora. I don't blame her for frowning when he says things like that. It is better to talk about things like that when the children aren't around. Explain why you think what he is doing is a problem and give him ideas of what he could say/do instead. Of course, you have to make sure he's open to listening to you. If he immediately gets defensive, there's no point in trying to talk to him. In that case, you can tell him that you'd like to talk about that and ask him when he'll have time. Then he won't feel like he's being ambushed. Or, you could write it down.

You could suggest to your dh that, if your ds does anything like that again, your dh could gently but firmly remove your ds from the situation. Take him in another room or for a car ride and stay with him or very close. Wait until everyone has cooled down and talk about the situation. Let your ds express all of his anger and other emotions without judgment or recrimination as long as he can stay calm about it. If he starts to get upset and agitated again, you or your dh can ask him to calm down, slow down, take a few deep breaths or take a break until he feels calm again. After your ds has told you or your dh everything, you guys can help him learn other ways to express his anger or frustration or whatever it is.

WRT my dh saying he finally got how I'm feeling from our counseling session, yes, it is frustrating that he didn't get it until then considering I've always told him how I feel. However, the idea of him finally getting it one way or the other is good. But, he still didn't understand me. He took me saying that being a mother is a big part of my life and who I am right now as meaning that I see myself only as a mother. That is extremely frustrating, especially since he wasn't even going to check with me on that. He wouldn't have said anything if I hadn't asked.

We're going to be cleaning and getting ready for Ethan's party. It's a Lego theme so I ordered a cake that is going to look like two stacked Lego pieces. So Cool! We couldn't get the cake Ethan wanted because it would have cost close to $100!

Still moving along with the refi. The decision about which company to go with was made for us. The first one was going to require us to bring about $1700 in cash to closing, which we do not have, so they are out. I'm so glad I called the 2nd one at the last minute. They are giving us a better deal with no cash at closing. Our total mortgage will go up, which sucks, but our monthly payment will go down by about $400. That will make it a lot more easy for us to either rent the house so we can all go to VA or to maintain two households if Sean has to go by himself.

I don't get why the first company needs all these fees and closing costs. They are the ones who hold our original mortgage. Why do they need to collect fees for title transfer when they already hold the title? Or for flood determination when they did that when I applied to the original mortgage? Seems like just a scam to collect money, which is one reason why I hate them and am glad we were able to find a different company to refi with.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

I thought you were going to try to make the cake! What happened??

I don't know much about refinancing (or buying new) but those closing costs etc sound ridiculous. Especially since you are already with that company. Good you found a better option!

I've been looking into the doula cert again, and now Chris says he thinks I should go thru DONA. I'm just not convinced it's worth all the extra time/money. Thoughts?


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

I did my training through DONA and really enjoyed it, but I didn't like the restrictions they placed on their doulas. This was several years ago though, they may have changed, I know they've changed some of the requirements for certification- I think they require breastfeeding courses and that now. What was the other organization you were thinking of?

Still feeling so crappy here. But DH let me sleep for almost two hours this afternoon. I think that's only happened maybe twice since Tenley was born, that he's taken her so that I could get some alone sleeping time. I mean sure I've slept with her during the day, but never alone for more than 20 minutes at a time or so, and usually while I can hear them playing in the background. It was really nice and I really needed it. Hoping I can get some good sleep tonight, but she went down at 745 and has already been up 3 times in less than 2 hours.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I don't know anything about the different doula certifications but DONA is the only one I recognize.

We were going to try to make the cake if we couldn't find anyone else who could. Trish found someone who says she can make the two tiered rectangular cake that looks like Lego pieces and she even does fondant (although, most of the cake will have buttercream frosting). I just hope it tastes good because I wasn't able to sample any of her cakes. Oh, I found some building block candy pieces at TRU today so I got those for the goodie bags.


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

.


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

You guys, I'm just devastated. My friend's baby that died this morning, she was a few weeks older than Ava. She was in the NICU next to Ava. She had had a rough go of it but she was doing well, relatively speaking. They were making plans for her next surgery to happen in a few months. She was fine yesterday. Dead this morning.







My friend's strength and grace continues to amaze me. She is a warrior through and through.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I am so sorry, Annie.














I saw that on Facebook.

EM ~ I think that's normal for boys that age. We went through the same thing with my oldest. My dh had a hard time with it because he said he had never seen boys cry like that. I think boys hold it in in front of others. That's why it's so surprising to those of us with boys when they start that. But, boys go through the same type of hormonal changes as girls do so it seems strange that we expect them to react differently. Ethan just turned 9 and he has started doing the same type of thing. The other night he was bawling his eyes out because he couldn't fall asleep, not because he didn't want to go to bed or sleep. I didn't know what to do about that other than just be there with him.

I yell a lot, too. I think it's understandable sometimes if you are just trying to be heard. The idea that if you talk quietly, the kids would quiet down to hear you never worked for me. Yelling when I'm angry isn't ok, though. I've been trying to change that for years and it's really difficult. Honestly, I don't think I've made much progress. Everyone says you just have to make a commitment to stop. When you feel yourself getting ready to yell, shut your mouth, walk away, breathe. None of that seems to work for me. My mouth opens up and starts yelling, it seems, before I even realize what's happening.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> I don't know anything about the different doula certifications but DONA is the only one I recognize.


Like literally recognize or the only one you would trust?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> You guys, I'm just devastated. My friend's baby that died this morning, she was a few weeks older than Ava. She was in the NICU next to Ava. She had had a rough go of it but she was doing well, relatively speaking. They were making plans for her next surgery to happen in a few months. She was fine yesterday. Dead this morning.
> 
> ...


I'm so sorry. It's just heartbreaking.







Having a child the same age makes it virtually impossible to ignore the grief. It seems so unfair.







We are here for you. Keeping your friends and their fighter in my heart.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> When you feel yourself getting ready to yell, shut your mouth, walk away, breathe. None of that seems to work for me. My mouth opens up and starts yelling, it seems, before I even realize what's happening.


What works for me (b/c I was truly in a bad place with the losing my temper) was realizing no lesson will be learned while I'm yelling. So if I'm so MAD that I can't teach the lesson rationally, it needs to wait for another time.

I still lose it sometimes when Nora hurts Finn or is horsing around and hurts me. Those are probably the only two instances where I just can't control my reflex to yell. BUT I do simmer down much quicker.

We had a HUGE milestone today. You all know how she refuses to let Chris help with anything, and won't leave the house with him. I've been thinking a lot about this lately, about how I just need to be more firm. I truly feel like her clinginess isn't good for either of us. In the past, once she protests, I let it go. If she cries, I said it wasn't worth it. But. It's gotten so out of hand. So we decided we need to be fair but firm with errands and with bedtime.

So today, Nora went with chris to home depot and harbor freight. It was a struggle and there were tears. once I firmly announced she was going with him, she burst into tears and hid under the table. 
she was crying and saying no, no! im too scared I'll miss you mommy. 
I stayed calm and firm. I said I know you'll miss me. I'll miss you too. 
I just calmly told her to come out from under the table and she did. I held her in my lap to put her shoes on. she was upset. but I said to her it's just like school, you're fine at school, and this time you'll be with daddy. it'll be a quick trip. I need you to help daddy find what he needs. 
she got her doll. asked me too buckle her in the car. by that time the tears were over, and she was fine.

She went and had FUN! They laughed and had an adventure together for the first time in a LONG time. I can't even remember the last time they went out together. It's been that long.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Carrie ~ tell me the others and i'll tell you if i recognize them. DONA is the only one i know i've heard.

It's good that Nora had fun once she was out with Chris, but what was the reason for making her go in the first place? I guess I'm just not getting why she needed to go on those kinds of errands. If I were going on errands like that, I'd much rather go by myself then have to drag a kid along.

I think I have a few minutes to post something I've been thinking about wrt the child who is so angry that he's yelling at his parents. If/when that is me, I try to go back over whatever happened and see if there were things I could have done differently so that my child would not have gotten to that point. Was I being reasonable? Was I listening to him when he first protested or wanted to have some input? Was I pushing something that was so important that it was worth causing that kind of rift in my relationship with him.

A recent example from here. Kellen was playing a game on the computer. It was late, 10:30 or so, I think. We announced that it was time for bed. Kellen protested because he didn't want to play his game. I think there was some back and forth between him and dh. I'm not sure because I wasn't paying full attention. Next thing I knew Kellen was crying and refusing to go to bed. Finally, I stopped what I was doing and asked what was so important because he could play the game again the next day. He explained that he was almost to the end of the game and had enough points to earn something but if he stopped then he would lose it all and have to start all over again the next day. I decided going to bed right at that time wasn't that important. I could wait another 15-30 minutes so he could finish the mission or whatever it was he was doing. He played until he got what he wanted to get and then we went up to bed happily.

I was very tired but I wouldn't have gotten to sleep any sooner if I had insisted he stop playing and go to bed earlier. I would have had to deal with forcibly making him stop and carrying upstairs. He most likely would have continued to cry, which I can't sleep through. I'm sure you all know that nothing short of duct taping his mouth and shutting him in closet in another part of the house would have gotten him to be quiet (which I'm sure you all know would never even be an option







). If the point was to get everyone to bed as soon as possible, it actually made more sense to let him finish what he was doing.

I hope all of that makes sense. My thoughts always seem to profound in my head but seem to be missing something when I try to write them out on here.

I think Dylan is sick again. He threw up all over me last night right after we went to bed. He hasn't thrown up today but he feels a little warm and is more fussy and clingy than usual.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

I try really hard not to yell. It's tough though because with 7 people in a small house, things get loud quick and sometimes I have to raise my voice just to be heard over the din. But it's always a work in progress.

Baby_Cakes, the thing that is most confusing to me about your DH's "ultimatums" to your DD is that they don't make sense. Like how does roughhousing have anything to do with bedtime? I can only imagine how confusing that must be to Nora. Is he receptive to talking through it when not in the heat of the moment? Does he acknowledge that he does it and it's a problem? That's the first step IMO.

Camp/school stuff: So I'm typically not a big fan of summer camp stuff that lasts all summer. When we've had the cash, I usually let the kids pick out one summer activity and around here, they last for a week. So DSS 12 did lacrosse camp one summer. It was mornings only and lasted for a week. We have so many awesome, free, fun activities for the kids to do at the library plus other places around town that I hate to schedule them for a camp that lasts all or most of summer, you know? What is the cut-off birthday for kindy admission in your area? Where I live, the child has to turn 5 by Sept 30 to start kindergarten in August.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Baby_Cakes, I'm glad that Nora had fun when she went out with DH. Have you and your DH discussed building in a set time every weekend or one night a week where YOU leave the house and he's in charge? How long can Finn go without nursing? I'm thinking something like every Saturday or every other Saturday, you leave the house from say 10 AM-3 PM. Then Daddy would be in charge. He would get lunch, maybe take them for a walk. She needs to see that he's competent and he can take care of her. He is her father. He can do it.

MW, I agree totally with how you handled stuff with K. We used to always have issues with the kids playing their DS in the car and then not being ready when it was time to get out to go in a store. Finally, I asked the right question and figured out that they were dragging their feet because they had to get to a certain point before they could save and not lose all their work. OK, makes sense. They just didn't know to tell me that. So I learned to modify my behavior. I would give them a 5-10 min warning before we got to our destination so they could get to a point to save their work.

AFM, my friend just posted the last picture taken with her and her baby. It was after A had passed, right before she left the ER. Crushed. I'm so sad for her that I'm sick to my stomach. I want to attend the service to support her and celebrate A's life but I honestly don't know how I would make it through.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> Carrie ~ tell me the others and i'll tell you if i recognize them. DONA is the only one i know i've heard.
> 
> ...


I was thinking of going thru CBI (Childbirth International). There's a bunch of different places/groups that certify that all bascially require similar things. It seems DONA is more hospital friendly (as most nurses will cert thru DONA) and each birth you attend for obtaining your cert needs to be approved/signed off by the OB or MW. CBI also doesn't require you to take any workshops out of town. I'm nervous to leave for a weekend for a workshop while I still have a nursling.

Ok - bear with me. It may seem silly or unnecessary but with her not accepting Chris at all it's exhausting. He always invites her to go, she throws a fit and yells mean things (I HATE Daddy! I don't LIKE him! I only love Mommy!) It's part of our plan to get her to stop rejecting him completely. as it is she refuses to let him help her with anything (meals, clothes, potty, bath, getting food/drink, bedtime, etc). We've mostly just let her have her say. As soon as she got upset, I would back down, say it isn't worth it, and he would go off again (on an errand and not taking a kid with...)

But...I don't feel good about it. I feel like she is so clingy to me and needy. And her rudeness toward DH is just...it needs to stop. I suppose she's entitled to her feelings and I don't want to disregard them. But I also feel like there needs to be some balance.

That and he really needs to spend more time with her. They barely have any time together, and I think that's a huge part of her disapproval of him. B/w his travel and all, she sometimes forgets if he's home or not, and I don't like that. I want them to have a good relationship, and I think encouraging time together is one step toward that.

Oh no about Dylan. Feel better little man!!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> I try really hard not to yell. It's tough though because with 7 people in a small house, things get loud quick and sometimes I have to raise my voice just to be heard over the din. But it's always a work in progress.
> 
> ...


Oh that's a good idea. Maybe I can find something and put both kids in for the morning a few days a week! food for thought!

He does talk to me about it when it's not in the moment. We did talk about it and he understands now. I just hope he can see it when it happens and keep himself from doing it!

The cutoff for my district is 5 by Oct 1st. Her bday is Oct 2.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

The other part was that I have huge issues stemming from my childhood that whenever I felt mad or sad or upset or scared, I was told to just shut up and get over it, stop being a baby, grow up. So I'm extremely sensitive to when Nora freaks and is like "I don't want to do that with Daddy! I don't like him!" I feel like her feelings are valid and I don't want to make her feel unheard. But, possibly to a fault. So, I talked to a few friends about it and they all gave me the advice that as long as I acknowledge her feelings and say I understand, but this is what is going to happen, it's being fair but firm.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> I think Dylan is sick again. He threw up all over me last night right after we went to bed. He hasn't thrown up today but he feels a little warm and is more fussy and clingy than usual.


Oh no! Does he have a runny nose? Ava gets choked up on mucus and saliva when she's teething, which she's doing now, and that will make her vomit. She drank so much milk last night before bed, I was convinced I wasn't getting her down without being covered at least once in vomit. But she went down ok.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> Ok - bear with me. It may seem silly or unnecessary but with her not accepting Chris at all it's exhausting. He always invites her to go, she throws a fit and yells mean things (I HATE Daddy! I don't LIKE him! I only love Mommy!) It's part of our plan to get her to stop rejecting him completely. as it is she refuses to let him help her with anything (meals, clothes, potty, bath, getting food/drink, bedtime, etc). We've mostly just let her have her say. As soon as she got upset, I would back down, say it isn't worth it, and he would go off again (on an errand and not taking a kid with...)
> But...I don't feel good about it. I feel like she is so clingy to me and needy. And her rudeness toward DH is just...it needs to stop. I suppose she's entitled to her feelings and I don't want to disregard them. But I also feel like there needs to be some balance.
> That and he really needs to spend more time with her. They barely have any time together, and I think that's a huge part of her disapproval of him. B/w his travel and all, she sometimes forgets if he's home or not, and I don't like that. I want them to have a good relationship, and I think encouraging time together is one step toward that.


I get you needing a break sometimes. I ask my dh to take one or two or sometimes all the kids with him when he runs errands just because. But, none of them gets upset over that. If they really don't want to go, we don't make them.

I understand your concern but I'm afraid you might not get the result you want. She may eventually stop getting upset about going places with Chris but it may be because she knows she has to rather than because she wants to be with him. KWIM? If you guys really want her to want to be with him, I think he needs to do more with her that she wants to do when she wants to do it without any strings attached.

It's normal for a young child to say things like they hate someone or don't like them but not really mean it. They don't quite understand what that means. They don't understand the long-term implications of what they are saying. Have you talked to her about why she says that? Just let her tell you. Don't comment on anything she says.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> TSo, I talked to a few friends about it and they all gave me the advice that as long as I acknowledge her feelings and say I understand, but this is what is going to happen, it's being fair but firm.


I get this and, if you truly need a break, then insist and do it the way did. That sounded like a gentle, caring way of handling it on your part. However, I wouldn't create arbitrary outings for her to go on with Chris just to get her to do it because of what I've said above.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> Oh no! Does he have a runny nose? Ava gets choked up on mucus and saliva when she's teething, which she's doing now, and that will make her vomit. She drank so much milk last night before bed, I was convinced I wasn't getting her down without being covered at least once in vomit. But she went down ok.


no runny nose but he does have a hacking cough. i thought it might've been mucous from that or possibly that he got hold of a bag of chocolates without anyone knowing.







the slight fever today is what has mean thinking he's really sick. he's noticeably warm to the touch. one of our homeschool families came down with something like the flu last week just a few days after we hung out with them at chik-fil-a. it sounded a lot like the flu.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

ITA. And I'm def coming from a place of love on this. I'm not trying to be a bully or push her off or anything. Outings are things they USED to do together, and they do have fun when they go. And it seems like they had a really good time. It's like she's forgotten he's pretty cool. It's like she needs to be reminded.

I would love for her to be able to choose if she wants to go or doesn't. Right now she's paralyzed by either fear or disdain for him. She isn't looking objectively at, "Hey do I want to go to that place?" and deciding no, she'd rather not. She's thinking, "OMG I don't like him!"

These are fun places. Not the DMV for 3 hours. Home depot is awesome for kids. And she loves Target. Her refusal to go is to go with him and not to the place.

I'll try to think of things they can do together that are more for her. That's a good point, too. Thanks.

Her explanation is only and always b/c she will miss me.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> no runny nose but he does have a hacking cough. i thought it might've been mucous from that or possibly that he got hold of a bag of chocolates without anyone knowing.
> 
> ...


Just coughing might be enough to cause him to puke. But the fever is no fun and flu is even worse! Sending get well soon vibes!

Lauri - was thinking, did you friends LO have TOF or did she have a different condition?


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Baby_Cakes, she had something called Hypoplastic Left Heart Syndrome. She was definitely a lot more sick overall than Ava but she was doing relatively well. Her condition requires 3 surgeries in the first 3-4 years of life and they were gearing up for her second surgery. She was doing well. And then she just died this morning. The first responders worked on her for three hours before they called it. She fought so hard.

MW, or anyone else, have you guys ever given elderberry syrup to your kids for immune support? I was reading about it last night and it seems to be a good alternative to the flu vaccine. Thinking about picking some up for me, DH and Ava to take.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I tried to get the boys to take elderberry syrup but they said it was nasty and refused. I'd give it a try if yours will take it.

Carrie ~ What has changed that cause Nora to stop wanting to do things with Chris? You think it's just because he's gone so much?


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

I've never offered it daily but my kids both liked Sambucol every time I've bought it and given it to them when they're sick. I'd say try it! Can't hurt!! I think I might actually pick some up too for me and chris and let the kids have it too. They've both had flu shots (duck







) but there are always strains not in the vaccine.

Oh poor baby. I've heard of HLHS, I have a mama from my 08 DDC whose son was born with that. Oh that's just so sad.
















MW I think it's a lot of things, all of which we're working on. It's him being away, his attitude/ultimatums, his lack of tools when he gets mad. I also think a lot of it has to do with my feelings towards him. When he and I are getting along well, she is more open to him. When he and I are at odds, even if we don't intentionally show it, she picks up on that.

Lately we've been really making an effort and she's "caught" us kissing a few times, and we are trying to show more affection. I think her seeing all this is helpful, and she doesn't view him as a threat or an enemy (mine or hers).

Oh - can we talk about funny things our kids say? I've been touching on family titles lately, like teaching her DH is my husband and I'm his wife. another example, Mia is her cousin and my niece. Etc Etc. . As an aside thing, whenever we watch movies and two people/characters kiss, we say "Look they're falling in love!!"

So the other day it goes..

"Who is daddy to me?'

"Your husband."
"Who is grandma to daddy?"

"His mother."

"Who is grandma to me?"

...thinks...

"Your mother-in-love!"

Ha! It was so cute, and I think I like that better! LOL!

Hope everyone had a good weekend! We did. Lots of fun and the house is absolutely trashed! No plans as of yet for the day but it's early!! What's everyone doing this week?


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Carrie - I resort to bribes - LOL - the only time Gabe HAS to go with DH is on their weekly "date" to kindermusik and lunch. Now Gabe gets a lollipop for the car. Otherwise it was crying, kicking and screaming the whole way, but he's fine once he gets there. DH really likes that solo time with Gabe, and wants to add a day to do similiar things with just Norah. I'd love to do that too, so we each have a solo date with each kid once a week, but it's been hard to implement.

Having that 1x1 time has been so good for both of them. Gabe still really likes me, but he goes up to and snuggles DH more, and asks dh to do things for and with him that he didn't before. DH was really hurt by his all the time mommy preference I think. So it was worth the effort, and the bribe, to help foster that relationship. I know that eventually Gabe might have loosened his grip on me on my own, but we felt it did no harm and it helps so much to encourage that along.

Norah, OTOH, doesn't really have a strong preference one way or the other, most days. Yesterday she was all me all the time. But usually she happily goes with either of us.

Annie - I'm sorry to hear about Ava's buddy. That is so unexpected and sad!

Carrie - I've heard of DONA and one other . . .when I was doing my research into doula-ism a while back. As a doula client, I don't have a strong preference either way - I think certification/training should be expected, especially given what some doula's charge. Cappa and Childbirth International sound familiar in the google search.

Another baby in my newsfeed born this morning! I need to get crocheting for this man.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Baby_Cakes, that's so cute about mother in love! Kids are so funny! The added info about Nora and your DH is very insightful in my opinion. If it were me, I would launch a "We love Daddy" campaign, but not tell Nora that's what you are doing. Hello and goodbye kisses between you and DH. Let Nora hear you praise him, to his face, to others, to Nora. You leave the house and let DH be in charge. No instructions given to him in front of Nora, no admonitions to Nora for her to be good for Daddy or listen to Daddy. Just an "I love you. Have fun with Daddy. See you in a couple of hours."

akind1, you better get cracking! I'm still in denial that your pregnancy is almost over too!

AFM, we're headed to the library this morning for Mother Goose storytime. Ava has her 18 month WBV on Friday. Not sure what else we'll do this week. Maybe go see my goddaughter/Ava's old sitter. I'm still just absolutely sick for my friend. When I pulled up to my house last night, I broke down again thinking about her having to leave her DD at the hospital yesterday and come home without her. I wish I could do something or say something to help but I know there's nothing to take away that pain.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Carrie ~ That is adorable! I like that better, too.

I'm remembering now there was a time when Ethan didn't want to go places with Sean. I think Ethan was around 4. A lot of it ended up having to do with Sean's unrealistic expectations of how Ethan should behave. Ethan would get upset that Sean wouldn't buy him a candy and start screaming and crying in the store. Sean would get embarrassed by Ethan's behavior and get angry. We talked about it and things got better. I think Sean's ultimate solution was to buy Ethan candy, which is fine with me but I find it interesting that he couldn't come up with any other solutions. I've talked to Sean ad nauseum about how it ultimately doesn't matter how other people, especially complete strangers in a store that he'll probably never see to recognize again, think of us. He's too concerned with what others think.

I think it is important for you to build Chris up in her eyes rather than knocking him down. I've realized I do that to Sean and it's not good. I'm trying to stop it. I have a habit of mumbling about how stupid he is under my breath over little things. I don't know why I get so annoyed by the stuff. I know, rationally, that it's not important but it drives me crazy!

I also think, though, that it's ultimately Chris' responsibility to behave in a way that makes Nora want to be with him, not the other way around. Chris is the grown up and the parent. He has all the power and responsibility in the relationship. Nora is a very young child who is just learning how to be in this world. It's up to Chris (and you to some extent) to show her that he's safe and fun and loves her no matter what. I had to say that to Sean a lot wrt to how he acted toward Ryan. I'd ask him who the grown up was then tell him to act like it. I don't want to hear any of that, "Well, he did this to me," crap from Sean.







That's just silly from a grown man. I still do that sometimes. He has definitely gotten better but still falls back on that sometimes.


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> If it were me, I would launch a "We love Daddy" campaign, but not tell Nora that's what you are doing. Hello and goodbye kisses between you and DH. Let Nora hear you praise him, to his face, to others, to Nora. You leave the house and let DH be in charge. No instructions given to him in front of Nora, no admonitions to Nora for her to be good for Daddy or listen to Daddy. Just an "I love you. Have fun with Daddy. See you in a couple of hours."
> 
> I'm still just absolutely sick for my friend. When I pulled up to my house last night, I broke down again thinking about her having to leave her DD at the hospital yesterday and come home without her. I wish I could do something or say something to help but I know there's nothing to take away that pain.


That sounds like a good plan! And I do agree with you encouraging them to strengthen their relationship. It's one of those things that's cyclical- the more time she spends with him, the more she'll be comfortable and eager to spend time with him. But if there's no first step, then she'll continue hating spending time with him. If you were all good with that, then that's fine. But it's obviously upsetting your DH, and you're starting to feel overwhelmed with it too, so I think it's totally reasonable to acknowledge her feelings in a loving way, and then still encourage her to go. Especially if, as you said, you know she has fun once she's out there.

Annie-- I can't imagine. *hugs* Take time to process it for yourself too.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> I've talked to Sean ad nauseum about how it ultimately doesn't matter how other people, especially complete strangers in a store that he'll probably never see to recognize again, think of us. He's too concerned with what others think.


DH does this too. He grew up in a home where they were told "We don't have a lot of money, but we can have our appearances." And that was --drilled-- into them. The world could be falling down around them, but they're all about the appearance of normalcy, nothing wrong, never a feather ruffled. DH's sister attempted suicide when she was younger, and they lied to everyone and said it was food poisoning, and then yelled at her for causing a scene. So yes, that has definitely carried on into our lives, both before kids, and now. Even if we're out shopping and I happen to be talking loud, DH gets all worried. I'm like really?? Nobody cares!! And I don't care! I have no idea who they are, and will never see them again. But it's been ingrained in him since birth, and that's hard to break free of. He does it now with Ten too. Better now that she's older, but when she was a tiny babe, if she would even make a peep in public, he would be rushing to finish what we were doing and race back to the car, while I was more like, yeah... she's crying. She's a baby. Obviously I'll worry if she's outright blue faced screaming, but in the meantime, people can deal!!

AFM- Feeling a bit better here, but still keep getting dizzy/nauseus spells. Not fun. And the house is a mess, so I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed. I think I'm going to clean up the kitchen, and then Ten and I are going to go to the library, and then to the store. We need more fruits and veggies, and it'll kill some time looking around the store a bit. She likes the cart.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

JJ: dizzy/nauseous spells? are you drinking enough? where in your cycle are you? (because you know this POAS chicken is a serious POAS pusher) LOL

While yeah, I don't care what other people think, I do think, when we can, it's good to be considerate of a public environment. Screaming and yelling hurts people's ears and just makes life generally unpleasant for other people (and myself) so I try to encourage a quieter tone in public. Running around the store . . depend on the crowd. If it's pretty quiet, and the kids stay within sight, I let them roam a bit. If it's crowded, I ask that Gabe stay close by and watch out for other people. I don't care what they think of my parenting - it's more to do with safety. Same thing with restaurants, I try to judge the crowd - some people don't mind my toddler making faces at them over the seat of the booth, other people are peeved. If the neighbors are enjoying the entertainment, I don't care if the kids socialize a bit. If they look annoyed, I would try to let them eat in peace. (though honestly, I've not yet gotten that reaction . . . most people don't mind at all)

And yeah, I totally don't bother washing faces or combing kids' hair before we go out . . . it seems like a useless excersise.

I totally agree with building DH up. It's my biggest . . . well one of them . . . pet peeves with MIL - she's constantly berating and putting down FIL in front of the kids. they both adore FIL, and sooner or later that stuff is going to hit home, and I think they'd choose his side over hers. And she'll regret that. I would rather it not get to that point.


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

Bahahahaha !! No no, the sickness started the day I'm pretty sure I o'ed, but there's been some nasty flus around here lately. Rob had one about a week and a half ago an was completely out of comiss ion for like 2 days. I never get illnesses as bad as him, but I'm pretty sure this is my version of that.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Yeah, being considerate of others in public is a good idea. Like if your kid is crying in a movie theater, leave. But don't get all angry and upset with the kid for being upset because you're embarrassed that your child doesn't know how to "behave" in public.

My kids aren't allowed to run around in public places or yell or talk nasty or anything like that. They know that and are usually pretty well behaved. Kellen is more difficult to manage because he is so high energy. He usually goes in a cart, sometimes buckled if he won't sit still. One thing that used to get me was that Sean would complain that Kellen always wanted to be carried to and in the store because he was too tired to walk. Well, put him in cart. :doh How hard is that?

JJ ~ The caring so much about what others think is really hard for me to get. I honestly don't care that much. I mean, sometimes I worry or get upset if I think someone doesn't like me if I think about it too much but I usually get over that pretty quickly.







Sean seems to take it to an extreme where he will do whatever to please the stranger at the expense of his own family.

Personally, I think that in almost any situation, we need to stick up for our family and our kids. If we don't, who else will? I would continue to love and support my child even if he did something very horrible. That doesn't mean I would like it or excuse it or condone or allow it to happen again if I could stop it, but I'm not going to throw my child under the bus because my neighbor doesn't like him. KWIM?


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 


> Kellen is more difficult to manage because he is so high energy.


I know that everyone's perceptions are different as well as tolerance levels but every time you describe K as "high energy", it makes me giggle a bit because from what I saw in Williamsburg, he's a pretty chilled out dude compared to my older four. I should send my two DSSs down to spend the weekend with you. They are so high energy they practically vibrate. The girls have grown out of it some but man, when they are excited about something, watch out! My DSS 17 will come home from running 10 miles and still do laps between the kitchen and living room because he has excess energy. The only time I've ever worn them out was a day trip to DC. They wanted to walk from the Natural History museum to the Lincoln Memorial. They started lagging just past the Washington Monument and I had to ply them with Jolly Ranchers to keep them moving.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> I know that everyone's perceptions are different as well as tolerance levels but every time you describe K as "high energy", it makes me giggle a bit because from what I saw in Williamsburg, he's a pretty chilled out dude compared to my older four. I should send my two DSSs down to spend the weekend with you. They are so high energy they practically vibrate. The girls have grown out of it some but man, when they are excited about something, watch out! My DSS 17 will come home from running 10 miles and still do laps between the kitchen and living room because he has excess energy. The only time I've ever worn them out was a day trip to DC. They wanted to walk from the Natural History museum to the Lincoln Memorial. They started lagging just past the Washington Monument and I had to ply them with Jolly Ranchers to keep them moving.


Hm...Interesting. Maybe it's a difference in how they express or expel the energy?









When we head up to bed, Kellen will jump and bounce and flip and climb his way there. He dances so much while brushing his teeth that I don't think he gets any actual brushing done. He jumps and bounces from one piece of furniture to another in the bedroom like a pinball. We have to physically grab him and carry him to the bathroom and stand with him to get him to be still enough to do anything. Once we lay down to go to sleep, he flips and flops and rolls all around for an hour or more. He whispers and sings to himself, sometimes counting, sometimes just making up little ditties. When the rest of us are sitting in the living room, he's flipping himself upside down, kicking his legs in the air and falling off the seats. He can and will be still to a certain extent if something really interests him but other times he's bouncing off the walls.

I went and helped Ryan get his account with the electric company set up today. It's supposed to be turned on tomorrow. I guess that means they'll be moving out as soon as they have something to sleep on.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> Hm...Interesting. Maybe it's a difference in how they express or expel the energy?
> 
> ...


The fact that what you just described sounds perfectly normal to me should be an indicator of what my house looks like! Was Ethan super relaxed when he was younger? I guess I'm just so used to kids whose bodies are constantly in motion that I don't see it as out of the ordinary. I do know that when I used to nanny twin boys, my mom would always comment how active they were compared to the twin girls she nannied that were a few months younger. We would go together to this outdoor mall area and my nanny boys would run, skip, zig zag, jump, etc. from one location to the next while my mom's nanny girls would walk placidly beside her. I would always wonder what was wrong with them!









I must have missed something....Ryan's moving out?

Oh and guess what? My oldest DSS turns 18 on Thursday...I can hardly believe it! He's going to officially be a grown-up. Yikes!

I meant to post something earlier. When we were at Mother Goose time this morning, the babies were all wandering around before we got started. Ava was across the room calling "Mama, Mama!". I turned to her and said "Ava, I'm over here right now. We're about to get started. Please come join me." She said "Oh." and started heading towards me. One of the other moms said in amazement "You speak to her like a grownup and she understands what you say!". I said "Yes, she understands me but she doesn't always choose to listen!"


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> I meant to post something earlier. When we were at Mother Goose time this morning, the babies were all wandering around before we got started. Ava was across the room calling "Mama, Mama!". I turned to her and said "Ava, I'm over here right now. We're about to get started. Please come join me." She said "Oh." and started heading towards me. One of the other moms said in amazement "You speak to her like a grownup and she understands what you say!". I said "Yes, she understands me but she doesn't always choose to listen!"


That is adorable. I think it's strange that other people think you can't talk to a baby or child the way you would talk to an adult. How do they talk to children, then? Baby talk or just continual orders?

maybe Ethan is the oddball because he has never been like that. He goes straight to what he needs to do and does it. He sits in his seat when he's doing something. When he gets in bed he gets comfortable quickly and lays still. He doesn't move any more than Sean or I do. When he was 3-4 and Kellen was a baby I could sit in bed with Ethan and watch TV or read or knit while Kellen slept right next to us. Ethan would be quiet and still and not disturb anyone. Ryan was very much how Kellen is. The jury is still out on Dylan. I think he's going to be somewhere in-between.

Ryan and Trish bought a mobile home for $2000!







I'm not convinced it's livable from what I've heard. I haven't seen it yet. Sean thinks it's questionable but not any worse than the house he lived in when he went to college so...I overheard him telling my dad that it's probably not a good idea for me to see it because I'll probably cry.









Ryan is so funny. He posted on FB that he is a homeowner at 21. Technically, I guess that's true but I'm not sure how much of a home it is. Don't tell him that.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

I had seen where you commented on that, and wondered - as for livability . . . I guess time will tell!

I talk to Gabe pretty often in caveman speak. He responds to it better than full on adult speech that has extra adjectives and prepesitions and whatnot. He's getting to where I don't really need to use it as much, but it's habit. Some of it's just a matter of using words I know he recognizes and responds to. (Gabe: do you need to use the bathroom? vs. Gabe: go pee in toilet?)

Norah is following directions better, sometimes. At least when they line up with what she wants to do anyway. and that's a nice change.

I'm so so tired. I need more sleep, more caffeine. And I think I might need to stop driving in the next couple weeks. belly is getting too big and my legs aren't getting any longer.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> And I think I might need to stop driving in the next couple weeks. belly is getting too big and my legs aren't getting any longer.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

33 weeks today!

MW: your grand-puppy is adorable! did R and T bring him over, or did you get to go to their new place? How was it?

Nothing else new here . . . I get to go visit a squish today (she's a week old!) we'll see how my kids handle that. Her big brother, that's Gabe's age, is a little possessive of her, so that adds a fun dynamic.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Trish brought the puppy over on way to taking it home. They spent their first night in their new place last night, I think. (I haven't checked to see if they are here but there were clues that Ryan had at least come here for a little bit last night after work.) It is very cute. Of course, I think that means we are stuck with Ryan's cat. :/

I think Dylan's fever has broken. He's still coughing and clingy but he doesn't feel hot any more.

I'm not sure what's going on with my cycle. I'm on what I thought was 13dpo with no







. Last cycle she showed at 10dpo. I started getting what looked like ewcf on Monday. So, either my lp is lengthening (which is a good thing, I guess) and the ewcf is just my progesterone dropping because







will be here soon or I never Oed. My normal lp before was 12 or 13 days, I think, so this may be my body getting back to that. I find it hard to believe I never Oed because I had all the symptoms of being in my lp and I stayed dry/sticky for 10 days. That's a long time to go for my body to reset in order to try to O again. I don't like being on high alert for







to possibly show. It's times these when I wish I could temp.

When Ryan gets all of his stuff moved out and we get his room cleaned, we'll move Ethan in there. Then we are going to try to get the boys to sleep in their own rooms. I'm trying to get Sean to do more to get the boys ready for bed. I don't know what he was thinking but he would just come home and sit in the living room until he couldn't stay up anymore and then go to bed, leaving me alone to try to get everyone else in bed. Then he would complain about everyone being up too late and blah, blah, blah. Well, then do something about it!

We talked about this at our counseling session on Monday. I told him that I could either get Ethan and Kellen to bed or I could take care of Dylan but I can't do both so he would have to do something. But then he hasn't done anything since then. He was downstairs doing dishes or something until 10:30 last night before I finally called him. If he feels the need to clean the kitchen, he needs to do that after getting the boys in bed. So, I guess I have to have another talk with him about that.

The counselor has been really good about supporting me in things. IDK if it's because she's a woman or if it's because I really do have legitimate issues. Sean always acted like I was just being unreasonable or unfair. Anyway, she agreed that it's not fair for him to get to come home from work and essentially zone out while I'm still constantly on the clock. Even if we were to do the 15 minutes of down-time thing, it's not fair that he get the first 15 minutes every day. She agreed that he does get time alone driving home from work to switch gears while I never do that. She suggested Sean doing some activities with the boys like tossing a ball around or getting them involved in a repair project with him while I get to take a bath for 30 minutes or just hide in the bedroom and read or knit or something like that. That would get the boys completely away from me so I could get some time to "recharge" and it would help his relationship with them. He responded as if that was a good idea.

Of course, I've been telling him that for years and he never listened but I'm trying to let that go. Kind of like when I told him to make a warm saltwater compress to help reduce the swelling and tenderness in Dylan's lymph nodes. His first comment was, "Is this another one of your hippie things?" in a very skeptical tone. When I told him that the chiropractor told me to do it, he said, "Oh, ok."









We have been getting along a lot better. He has been a lot more present with all of us and a lot nicer to everyone, not so grumpy. I am still a bit of a nag. I need to work on that. The other night I started to tell him how to do something differently when he was cooking but caught myself, shut my mouth and walked out of the kitchen. He was saying something to me, jokingly, about letting him do it his way and I just kept saying, "I'm walking away." It became a joke and we laughed and that was good.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

hate when cycles do weird things. I know this sounds hippie-ish (but hey, we kind of are, aren't we?) but have you ever checked the phase of the moon at O or AF? I found mine to be more consistent with that then with necessarily counting - I would O at a new moon and AF at the Full or vice versa - can't remember - but when AF was finally starting to be regular again, before Norah, those tended to line up. It was true for AF at least before I ever went on Depo (I didn't track O then).

Have you gained or lost a bit of weight lately? sometimes that will throw it off - especially I think with PCOS.

I am so grateful that DH does his share of night time parenting. Granted, i think it partly has to do with getting nookie, but hey - whatever works! - he knows the sooner the kids are in bed (which is more likely to happen if we double team) the more likely any other adult activities will happen. Once the new baby is born, I will need to shake up our routine a bit - depends on what sort of sleeper he is.

chores: for us, they need to be done prior to kids being in bed -except for general tidying and laundry. Dishes, showers, vacuuming must be done while the kids are awake, else the noise will wake at least one of them up. (Norah - Gabe is a deep sleeper and really hard to disturb). You have a 2 story house so maybe this is a bit less of an issue.

I am glad the counselor is being a help. And hooray that you both are making some progress!

Is Ethan excited about the prospect of his own room? Gabe loves having his own room - it's only for sleeping really - they don't play much in their rooms - but he loves it. the other night he woke up due to a bad dream or something and DH went in to him (usually I do, but he was already up) and Gabe was so tickled in the morning that daddy slept in his rocket ship room. Their weekly dates I think have done wonders to strengthen their relationship.

Carrie: how are your DH and Nora doing? (btw, DH thinks maybe we should drop our Norah's "h" bc no one ever spells it right. LOL)

JJ: how's Tenley?

I'm a little more awake now, after getting peeved at my insurance company being able to exempt themselves from the better parts of stupid obamacare/affordable care act. Evidentally they don't HAVE to cover breastfeeding supplies and support, since my plan was grandfathered in. I think grandfathering should only apply when it's a benefit to the consumer. Otherwise, it's just a load of BS. I wanted a new, free pump! I still do, trying to figure out if there is a way around that idiocy.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I have tried seeing if my cycles follow the cycles of the moon at all but they didn't seem to. My lp has been very consistent once it regulates after birth and breastfeeding. It's not really doing anything strange now. This is only my 2nd possible O cycle since giving birth. It can take several before it gets back to any kind of normal consistency. It's just that, if I had temps, I could know for sure whether or not I Oed. With just CF data, there's no way to really know for sure even if







shows up at a reasonable time.

I have gained quite a bit of weight. It's actually disturbing me. Back in September when we went to Williamsburg I was wearing my smaller jeans but I recently had to go out and buy some new ones in a size larger than my larger jeans.







I thought it was from the Zoloft because the bulk of it was put on after my dose was increased. I hadn't thought about PCOS because I hadn't had a weight problem before from that. I have been off the Zoloft for maybe a month now and I'm going to start exercising more regularly to see if that helps. But, like I said, my cycle isn't off because it hasn't gotten back on yet.









Ethan is excited about his own room. He keeps asking if Ryan has moved out yet. I told him yesterday that Ryan probably won't get the bulk of things moved out of that room until this weekend when he has a couple of days off. We shall see. I'm thinking of starting some sort of registry for him of things he needs like kitchen supplies and curtains and such so that family can buy or donate things if they'd like. That's kind of fun.

Part of the reason the bedtime stuff came up was because of Sean's supposed displeasure with our lack of dtd. I, personally, don't think it has anything to do with _where_ the boys sleep. It has to do with Sean going to bed so early and on his own and leaving me to deal with everything else. Sean makes no effort to be intimate at all and I'm just not really interested so I'm certainly not going to make a big effort after I've finally gotten everyone else in bed and asleep. If Sean would help getting everyone ready and in bed, wherever that may be, and actually stay up long enough to maybe have some couple time afterward, maybe something more will happen. I said all of that and he still hasn't made any effort to get the boys ready and in bed any earlier. But, I'm just not going to make a big effort if he's not going to make any. As I've said before, I honestly do not have much, if any, interest in sex right now, so whatever.

I don't care about the dishes and such. I would just rinse and stack them in the sink and do them in the morning. Sean, apparently, likes to get them done before he goes to bed. If he wants to do that, he needs to get the boys in bed and asleep first. Otherwise, it gets too late and any chance of "couple" time is gone.

WRT to insurance covering breastfeeding supplies, personally, I don't think they should be required to. I don't see a breast pump as a medical necessity. If you choose to work away from your baby so that you need to bottle feed, then it should be your responsibility to pay for the supplies needed to do that. That sort of thing should be supplied through a social program like WIC in the same way they supply formula and baby food vouchers, but not private insurance companies.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Priorities, you know - for DH, DTD is a priority, so he helps the ensure that there is more opportunity for that. Clearly that doesn't work for Sean, so he needs something else as motivation.

With regards to choosing to work, um, I don't work for the joy of it. I *need* to work. Someone needs to work, DH does, and it's picking up, but it will never be enough for me to SAH. Unless we win the lottery or something. And regarding the pump - it's part of legislation that got passed - and is supposed to be for *all* breastfeeding mothers, regardless of working status (some women pump to donate, or just to have an extra supply in the freezer JIC) - and part of that legislation is also breastfeeding support, like Lactation Consultants, etc, and if my insurance isn't covering a breast pump, they wouldn't cover a LC either - it's part of the same umbrella of preventative services that they are exempt from offering. Along with coverage for birth control, etc, with no copayments from the insureds. I really dont' need the pump, I have a working one. But I work in a company that's probably 75% women, and has otherwise been stellar in their breastfeeding supportive practices - They need to step up. It's one of those things I feel I should fight for on behalf of the other women I work with - many of whom also don't really have a choice to SAH. Sorry, but I take major umbrage at the idea of "choosing" to work. Some women do and some women really must. Regardless, they should have every opportunity and support to continue breastfeeding their children, and if it's part of legislation, then companies should abide by it and not look for loopholes. Does it matter if it's through insurance (which we pay for, but is legislated in part by the government) or a government program like WIC? what's the difference?

I'm glad Ethan is excited - it helps! and yeah, registry for R&T!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I get that it's part of legislation but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it. I understand that you feel you need to work in your situation. However, I don't agree that is the only option you all have. I'm not saying that's not the best option for you. It's just not the only one.

I will never agree that private companies should have to provide lifestyle support supplies. I'm not saying that breastfeeding is a lifestyle choice, but being a working mother of a breastfeeding infant is (for the most part). There are some special case scenarios. If a breastfeeding mother absolutely has to work, she's single and has no other support system, then a breast pump should be provided through a social services program like WIC, as a stated above, not by a private company. WIC provides infant formula and baby food vouchers to subsidize poor, working mothers. It would be much more cost effective to provide breast pumps. I especially disagree with the idea of a private insurance company having to provide a breast pump to a woman who stays at home. That is not in any way a necessity. A breast pump, especially an expensive hospital grade one, is not something that is needed to breastfeed. You can get a breast pump for as little as $20-$30. Yes, they are manual so it's a bit more work but, if a mother really wants to work and really wants to breastfeed and can't afford anything more, than it'll have to do. JMNHO

I think it does matter because I don't think government has any business legislating business, as it were. They are essentially collecting double taxes to pay for all these requirements if we have to pay taxes to the government and then are also required to buy medical insurance and have to pay premiums and cover deductibles and copays to cover every possible thing under the sun that any one person in the insurance company pool that I happen to belong to might want. It's not my responsibility to pay for someone else's lifestyle choice. Maybe if the government stopped taxing people so much and stopped forcing more and more government programs on business who then pass the cost onto the individual, more people would be able to afford to buy the things they want or think they need.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

I mostly agree with you MW but if you have a child that has a medical condition that precludes them from being able to direct feed to get breastmilk then I think it is a private insurance company's responsibility to provide a high-quality electric breastpump to the child's mother. A manual pump may work but it could endanger the mother's supply and cause the child to lose out on the medical benefits of it's mother's breastmilk sooner than if the mother had an electric pump.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> I mostly agree with you MW but if you have a child that has a medical condition that precludes them from being able to direct feed to get breastmilk then I think it is a private insurance company's responsibility to provide a high-quality electric breastpump to the child's mother. A manual pump may work but it could endanger the mother's supply and cause the child to lose out on the medical benefits of it's mother's breastmilk sooner than if the mother had an electric pump.


Good point. I would put that under my special circumstances caveat since that is caused by an actual medical issue. One question though, couldn't this just as easily be accomplished by a social service, especially if it's a medical issue?

Well, ok, more than one question.







Do insurance companies have to pay for special formula for formula fed babies with food sensitivities? Those are expensive! Does WIC cover that? I don't know because I never needed help with formula feeding from WIC. They did give me checks for "healthy" foods when Ryan was a baby and young child; milk, cheese, cereal, maybe jarred baby food, juice, etc.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> Good point. I would put that under my special circumstances caveat since that is caused by an actual medical issue. One question though, couldn't this just as easily be accomplished by a social service, especially if it's a medical issue?
> 
> ...


When I checked in to social services for Ava, i.e. SSI, etc, you have to not only qualify with a medical condition but you also have to qualify financially. Ava qualified for medical reasons but we make too much money according to the government. WIC provides breastpumps but again, you have to qualify financially. So asking families to rely on social government services only would put most people above the income line. For our family personally, if I had not been given a breastpump and then had the ability to purchase one used for very cheap, we would not have been able to afford to buy one out of pocket.

For special formula, the insurance companies do pay because doctors have to write a prescription for it.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Interesting. I had a friend who had her babies on special formula because the doc told her they were allergic to her breastmilk. I remember her grumbling about how expensive it was. I don't think she got any help paying for it.

For someone who wants a breast pump but can't afford one, I would expect family to step in and help with the cost. I think we have gotten so far removed from the idea that family is supposed to help each other in all ways throughout life that it is sad. We rely too much on the government to provide for us what we cannot. Put it on the baby registry and tell everyone that is the only thing you need. If no one person can buy it, ask them to pool their money or give you gift cards. Honestly, if you need an electric breast pump for when you go back to work and can't afford to buy it yourself, don't ask for anything else for the baby. If you get other things, return them. Don't buy all the other useless baby gear.

Again, I agree that your situation is different, but for the mother and baby without medical issues, I don't think private insurance companies should be required to provide such things.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

I got this elderberry syrup at Whole Foods http://www.amazon.com/Gaia-Herbs-Elderberry-5-4-Ounce-Bottle/dp/B0036THLPE/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1358390145&sr=8-2&keywords=gaia+elderberry+syrup and started taking it yesterday. DH has been giving it to Ava at night mixed in her allergy meds. I think it tastes yummy. It reminds me of the filling in cherry pie.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Our friends make elderberry syrup - it's supposed to be pretty easy - just dried elderberries, some apple cider vinegar, and honey and water reduced on the stove - you can also add cinnamon or clove for flavor. this is a similiar recipe: http://www.mountainroseherbs.com/newsletter/10/november/elderberrysyrup.php - JIC you wanted to make your own, it's alot cheaper.

Meh, it's nice of families to help, but alot of people don't have family, have bad relationships with their family, or their families are in no financial position to help. I feel I pay out the wazoo for my insurance. by LAW it's a benefit they are supposed to offer, and so therefore they should. I would probably qualify for WIC (nearly all of the state does, regardless of income) but with that comes jumping through all other sorts of hoops I don't care to do. Seriously, if I weren't having hospital births, I would consider being "uninsured" and just paying out of pocket for health care things as needed (but also, I generally am pretty healthy and so are the kids). We pay about $6000 in health insurance per year, and contribute another $2500 to the FSA for out of pocket expenses. They can fork out some money for breast pumps. If they will pay for men to have penile prosthetics and Viagra, they should contribute towards giving babies a healthy start with something they NEED. (just saying). off soap box.

In other news - got to hold a teeny tiny squish last night! so cuddly - only a week old. and neither Gabe or Norah completely freaked out. Gabe petted her gently. Norah patted her (well, smacked her) but I don't think the intent was to be rough. Need to make opportunities to see new babies over the coming weeks to help get them used to the idea (not that it's a must, but it doesn't hurt).

Doing the sibling walk through tour the first week of February with Gabe at the hospital. They have a class too if the kid will be in the delivery room, but I don't intend to have Gabe there.

Coffee is starting to kick in . . . mmmm. Materity pics on Saturday! I hope the photographer will have some previews posted to FB Sunday or Monday!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Dylan was a bit rough with the puppy yesterday. He got very angry when I held his hand away from the puppy because he was poking her in the face. But when I asked him if he wanted to pet the puppy and took his hand to show him how to do it gently, he shook his head, "No," and cried.









If you saved that money instead of paying for insurance, you could pay for your hospital birth with cash.







And while you are saving it, you could be making money off it instead of giving it to the insurance company to make money off of.

I disagree with insurance companies covering Viagra and such for men. Is that something that is required by the government? I also don't think insurance should be required to cover birth control unless it's an absolute medical necessity, and basic pregnancy prevention is not a medical necessity. If the insurance company is a private company, the government should not be able to require it to cover anything. I don't believe there should be much government regulation of private business at all. I also disagree with the notion that the government can require it's citizens to buy medical insurance. The entire concept of Obamacare is wrong. It goes against all of our civil liberties.

There is such a thing in this country as civil disobedience. If someone doesn't believe that a law is just, they can protest it. I don't blame private companies for looking for loopholes to get out of requirements that are not just or right as long as it doesn't involved mistreatment of people, which this does not.

Like I said before, if there is serious financial distress and the mother absolutely has to work or special medical issues, the government should provide a breast pump. That would be true breastfeeding support. Or, hey, guess what. Don't force mothers of infants to work. Wouldn't that be a novel way of supporting mothers and children and breastfeeding?

I don't know what hoops you have to jump through for WIC. I was on WIC, food stamps and Medicaid in VA and at least food stamps and Medicaid in SC when I was pregnant with and for several years after I had Ryan and didn't have to jump through any hoops. Is it really any worse that all the "hoops" anyone has to deal with for insurance companies?


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

well, you do have to visits and such things. I don't even do wbv, so doing wic visits seems really pointless.

I don't necessarily disagree with what you say re: governement regulation. However, that's in an ideal world, or at least not one that we live in right this moment. do i agree with obamacare? no - its wrong on alot of levels. but since its there, I feel companies should have to abide by it, since its in the best interests of their consumers.

Babies like being rough maybe? I cant let Norah near the cat, she refuses to be gentle. but she will be gentle with me whem i remind her, so i know she understands.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

WBVs aren't necessary to receive insurance benefits. If WIC visits are necessary in order to receive a needed service or supply, then it's reasonable. Otherwise, I guess the service or supply is not really needed. I don't remember those visits being difficult.

The attitude of, well, that's just the way it is so we should all go along, is the kind of attitude that keeps us stuck in this never-ending expansion of government that is slowly stripping us of our civil liberties. Apathy... Something is only an ideal if we just dream of it and never do anything to make it happen.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

I am willing and able to help make changes. It doesn't change the fact, that as of right now, today, this minute, this is our world. The change that you speak of will take a generation or more to happen, it isn't going to happen overnight. So, in the meantime, it's prudent, I feel, to work within the system.This is legislation that's in place, that I think is actually a GOOD thing. At least this part of it. And for insurance companies to balk at something that benefits them (breastfed babies tend to be healthier, etc) and their client base I think is really ridiculous.

Thank you JJ for posting that link for Hygeia. I think that's pretty awesome, that they are stepping up to help moms get breastpumps they need. At considerable cost to themselves. Medela doesn't appear to be trying to do anything similiar. I wish they would! I have friends that are WIC counselors that actually are seeing a lot of difficulty with this new legislation and trying to get moms breastpumps, and they are trying to find the best way to fight back.

I cannot tell you how thankful I am that Gabe still takes naps, and long ones. I wish Norah were as predictable a napper!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Dylan woke up early from his nap yesterday and was a fussing, crying mess the rest of the day. He would just sit in the middle of the floor and cry. He wouldn't even let me pick him up.







Today he fell asleep in the car on the way home from homeschool park day but woke up when I tried to transfer him to the bed. Now he's nursing and dozing on my lap. He seems asleep until I try to move him. Then he wakes up and cries.

Did I miss a post from JJ? I don't see anything.

Providing breast pumps to women who need it is a good thing. Government too much in control of private businesses and personal lives is not.

I was aggravated by the supposedly pro-breastfeedung sign in the nursing room of my local TRU. The first listed that was "needed" was to choose a breast pump. It wasn't really information on supporting and helping with breastfeeding. It was a marketing too used to make women who are already breastfeeding their babies think that they need a bunch of stuff to do it, which is just not true. I found it offensive.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

BTW, got







today. right on time. 13 day lp and O day the same as last cycle. looks like my body is getting back to normal.

i keep forgetting to mention, did you all notice kellen's new avatar in my signature? he picked it out.


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

I just have a quick second, but I think it's kind of narrow-minded to say that if mother's want to breastfeed their babies then they should just find a way not to work. It's not at all as simple as that. I realize the response will be that it's a choice, but everything can be a "choice", that doesn't make it a valid one for any intelligent human. When the choice is go into debt, not be able to afford food, your home, etc, and end up homeless, or go to work and find a breastpump to allow you to continue providing breastmilk for your baby, you can't really call that a valid choice. This woman could just choose to stop breastfeeding and feed formula, since it's easier and doesn't require a breastpump, but why wouldn't we want to make it an option for her to both continue to make money to feed her family and to provide breastmilk for her baby?

Look at it this way-- people want insurance companies to cover homebirths and midwives. Why? because women should have the option. Because it's safer. Because it's cheaper for the insurance company. But... you could still have a natural birth with a short stay in the hospital, couldn't you? Yes, but it's a long easier to achieve that natural uninterrupted (and cheaper) birth, with a midwife, or at home. Same as... you can breastfeed without a pump. But it can become a lot easier (and thus cheaper for the families, and healthier), if you provide access to a pump. Breastfeeding is a crucial right that needs to be supported more, and women need more options that aren't the ridgid "Stay home and breastfeed for 2 years without doing anything". That's why so many women don't bother breastfeeding at all. They know they'll have to stop once they go back to work (in their eyes), so it's not worth starting. If we made pumps more accessible to these mamas, more babies might be breastfed. And with that the future generations are healthier, and smarter. We know that being fed breastmilk decreases so many childhood illnesses and complications, thus lowering medical costs to the insurance companies. Why the heck wouldn't they want to cover a pump? Kwim?

Blah. Busy busy busy day here at work today. I didn't stop moving a mile a minute from 7am-330pm. Inhaled my lunch while returning emails (and later pumped while returning emails). I've been thinking more lately about the work/home/money balance. I would love to bring in more money and feel more secure. We're making our bills and everyhting, don't get me wrong, but we have no savings right now with trying to reno the basement still. And we would love to find some money to take a trip. But it's not happening.

Plus, I love working. I really do enjoy being there, being challenged. It's a good feeling, and it is a sense of respite. On the other hand, I can't imagine being away from Tenley for more time than I already am. I feel like I need more hours in the day. I want to work more, but I also want more time with her. And there's no way to do that!

Anywho, off to actually you know, spend time with her for a bit!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I didn't say women should find a way not to work. I said if they choose to work, it's their responsibility to find a way to feed their babies the way they want except in the case of some special circumstances. You seemed to have missed everything I said about poor women and families and about government providing services rather than forcing private companies to provide those services.

And, no, you cannot have a natural birth in a hospital. You can have an unmedicated birth but there's nothing natural about the way that birth is handled in hospitals, at least not here in the US. Studies have shown that women's bodies go into distress as soon as they enter the hospital environment. That's not natural. Every hospital I have ever heard of requires a heplock at the very least, if not a full IV. That is not natural. Monitors and machines and bright lights and cervical exams and restricted food and liquid intact are not natural.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

The hospital I delivered Ava at does not require a heplock. It's pretty close to natural. I attended a birth there as a doula and we kept the lights off, she labored in the tub, she could eat, drink, move around, etc. Their only restriction is you aren't supposed to birth in water but it does happen sometimes.

I think that private insurance covers a lot of unnecessary things. I also think that the price of health care in this country is WAAAAAAY overinflated. Every time Ava's neonatologist stopped at her beside with his gaggle of residents, he charged our insurance $940. Was his care really worth that? For Ava, no IMO. Her cardiologists were much more responsible for keeping her alive until her first surgery not the neonatologist. But for a 25 weeker? Yeah, his time was probably worth that. I think it's just a mess all around.

Work stuff, I hear you JJ. I enjoy my time at work, most of the time. It's nice to get a break, be around grownups, etc. But I hate that Ava is not cared for completely between me and DH. That's not an issue with my job though. That's an issue of my DH not thinking that he could work 7 AM- 3 PM and then do email correspondence after Ava goes to bed. So because of his choice (he would say it's not a choice but I feel differently) she has to go to a sitter. I hate that part of it. I wouldn't even mind if she could go to my mom's every afternoon. At least she would be cared for by family, YKWIM?

MW, how many cycles have you had PP? That's great that your body is regulating so quickly. My cycles are short but it's because I'm not being good about taking my thyroid meds. If I buckled down on that, my LP would lengthen.

My friend's baby's funeral is on Monday. Aside from having car issues and not being able realistically travel the 3 hrs roundtrip, I just don't think I can emotionally handle going. I'll take Ava to church and we will light a candle and say prayers for the other baby.

Ava's 18 month WBV tomorrow. I expect a bit of a fight from her pedi about the shots. He wasn't very happy with me at her 15 month WBV but I've thought about it and I have a well planned reason to give him now. I didn't plan well before and so I feel like I bumbled through it and made excuses. My reasoning is this: Since her reaction to each shot has increased with every dose, I'm not comfortable giving any more to her until she is older and has more language to communicate what is hurting or bothering her when she gets one. Also her surgeon said that we should treat her like a four-chambered heart when making decisions and if she was heart-healthy, I would be delaying/declining shots. I've researched the data on VPDs on the CDC site and I'm comfortable with the risk. As for the flu shot, again, I'm not comfortable with how negatively her body has reacted to shots in the past so I researched supplements for immune support and she is only daily doses of those that provide almost as much protection as the shot. The shot is rated at around 60% effective for helping you not get the flu and vit D and elderberry are both around 50% effective. I'm ok with that. He may tell me that he can't see her anymore as a patient. That would make me sad because I feel like we do have a good working relationship but I just know how peeved he was at me at her 15 month visit. We'll see. I may be making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Ava is 18 months. Can you guys flippin' believe that?


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> i keep forgetting to mention, did you all notice kellen's new avatar in my signature? he picked it out.


I love it! Super fun!


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Annie - going in well planned is a great idea. I hope you can continue your working releationship - given Ava's heart, I know having a regular peditatrician is something that's important, and it's hard finding ones that line up with your thinking.

I think natural birth is something that just depends on who you ask. There are those for whom an out of hospital birth simply isn't a viable option (for them or their babies) due to health conditions, so an unmedicated, relatively intervention free birth is as natural as they get - and I think they'd call their births "natural". Either way, I wish insurance and everything would encorage more natural birthing options - it's cheaper and better for everyone, generally speaking. think of all the money the insurance companies would save if epidurals stopped being routine. (granted, obviously the drug companies and anesthesiologists would make less too, LOL)

I don't think you have to a "poor woman or family" to need to work. I don't really qualify as poor. But I need to work. It's not about maintaining a standard of living. And my family does help out, tremendously. We live with them practically for free, and they feed us a meal a day (that they don't have to - but it's easier on everybody to eat dinner together). It's hard to ask them to do more than that. My mom would love if I could stay at home. It's just not in the cards. And probably a good 75% of the women that I know that work (that have children under 5) work because they must - sometimes it's just for benefits, and sometimes it's putting food on the table. I'd probably love health insurance if I had a child that needed special health attention, like Ava. and I might yet - they've been healthy thus far. Stuff happens. But in the meantime it seems ridiculous. Oh well.

On to happier topics!

LOL, love his new avatar! and yay for AF! (I think)

Happy 18 months to Ava! that's fantastic! only 6 more months until she is TWO. That's crazy.

I can't believe Norah will be a big sister before she's 18 months. I never saw that coming.

She and Gabe are so cute together. She's starting to fight back, which depending on his mood either irritates him or amuses him. Last night I was rocking her to sleep, and Gabe sat next to us, and they held hands, giggled, and and patted each other until she fell asleep. I so wish I could have got that on camera. A memory to treasure. I admit things between them aren't always so fabulous, but those flashes of really good moments make me so, so happy. It's like, hooray, doing something right!


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> Doing the sibling walk through tour the first week of February with Gabe at the hospital. They have a class too if the kid will be in the delivery room, but I don't intend to have Gabe there.
> 
> Coffee is starting to kick in . . . mmmm. Materity pics on Saturday! I hope the photographer will have some previews posted to FB Sunday or Monday!


That's neat!!
And I can't wait to see picssss!!!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> BTW, got
> 
> ...


Hooray for a regular cycle and LOL at that pic!! Hahaha!

I just changed mine b/c the sleepy mama one wasn't quite true. I'm sleepy but I find I'm laughing thru my days so much more than dragging.









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *onetwoten*
> 
> Plus, I love working. I really do enjoy being there, being challenged. It's a good feeling, and it is a sense of respite. On the other hand, I can't imagine being away from Tenley for more time than I already am. I feel like I need more hours in the day. I want to work more, but I also want more time with her. And there's no way to do that!


I so get what you mean. I miss working for those reasons!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> The hospital I delivered Ava at does not require a heplock. It's pretty close to natural. I attended a birth there as a doula and we kept the lights off, she labored in the tub, she could eat, drink, move around, etc. Their only restriction is you aren't supposed to birth in water but it does happen sometimes.
> 
> ...


I think another problem is the term Natural. Ask some mamas and natural birth = vaginal. To another it's unmedicated. To another, like me, it's a homebirth with a midwife. I think it's just so subjective, and what truly matters is how THAT mama feels about her birth. We can't take away what it is based on a loose definition of a word.

I truly like your thinking on the vaccines. If your ped threatens to fire you, so be it. I believe you can find another who will jive with your goals. I bet he won't tho. Im sure with an explanation like that and a plan, you'll be set.

There is one ped in my group who is very fussy about vaccines. I just choose not to do visits with him. He wanted me to map out a schedule of vaccines and I said I'm comfortable with thinking one step ahead only. He took that as an answer, and I followed thru, b/c I was ok with that and it was truly my original plan. I just made him feel like it had been his plan.









And OMG 18 months! Finn is 17 months, and it BLOWS my mind!! Our babies are closer to 2 than we realize!!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> I can't believe Norah will be a big sister before she's 18 months. I never saw that coming.
> 
> She and Gabe are so cute together. She's starting to fight back, which depending on his mood either irritates him or amuses him. Last night I was rocking her to sleep, and Gabe sat next to us, and they held hands, giggled, and and patted each other until she fell asleep. I so wish I could have got that on camera. A memory to treasure. I admit things between them aren't always so fabulous, but those flashes of really good moments make me so, so happy. It's like, hooray, doing something right!


Holy moly, no I'm sure you didn't! But she and Teddy (is that what we're calling him still?) are going to be super close. I have a feeling they won't fight as much as Gabe and Norah. OH -- funny you said that about the H. Ever since seeing your daughter's name, Nora has been spelling her name with an H at the end!! LOL! Grass is always greener I suppose!!!

I'm so far behind so I'll just do an AFM - lately we are doing really great. Having fun, etc. The only issue I'm really having is finn is a darter. Like, he bolts. as soon as his feet hit the ground he's GONE. And I don't believe in leashes for many reasons so it's a lot of hand holding and putting him back in the stroller if it's with us, otherwise on my back. Nora wasn't like this. She would explore but she'd always stay close. I really hope this stage doesn't last too too long, b/c I'm honestly OVER it.

At IKEA he ran from the play area so I followed him, about 20-30 paces behind just to see what he'd do. He took off. Ran around the storage bins, around a corner, past a stairwell and into the cafeteria. W/o looking back once. Laughing and running and just GONE. Imagine if I'd not been looking when he took off? Sigh. This boy.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Dylan finally slept for more than a couple of hours straight last night. We got 6 full hours (I think)! I knew I was going to jinx it if I told you all he had been essentially STTN. Sure enough, he started waking every 2-3 hours again right after I told you all that.







I think he's pretty much over the illness he had. He still has a cough but no fever and he's definitely acting more happy, playful and independent. If that was the flu, it was very short lived and not bad at all. Maybe taking him to the chiropractor helped? I'm sure that breastfeeding did.









I agree that "natural" in terms of birth is very subjective. I googled and got a bunch of stuff about how it means birth with minimal routine medical intervention. I disagree with that. I think it's being defined as if a medical birth is what's normal when it should be defined the other way around in the same way that feeding a baby should start with breastfeeding and everything else should be defined based on that as what's normal. Start with the assumption that normal birth can and does happen without any help or interference and define medical births in varying degrees based on that.

I guess I hold a more strict definition of what natural means. To me, it means to follow nature. Going to a hospital for birth is not natural. Nature didn't set up hospitals for females to give birth. Our bodies are designed to give birth freely without the need for any intervention. That does not mean that every woman who ever lived can give birth. There are always anomalies. However, the majority (which is anything over 50%) of women's bodies are (or were because who knows how modern medicine and agriculture and industry may have changed things) able to give birth without any intervention at all.

Do you really need to work? Your husband couldn't work more than one job or get a job that's more lucrative? He chose to pursue being a massage therapist knowing he wouldn't be making very much money (at least initially) and you chose to support him that while having babies, which put you in a position of being the primary financial supporter of your family and, therefore, having to leave your brestfeeding infants for extended periods. However, that circumstance could be changed if you chose to change it. I'm not saying that you are doing the wrong thing or that should change it. I'm saying that you do have other options.

Off to the chiropractor. I feel this post may be a bit disjointed and unclear and maybe missing some explanations but I don't have time to proofread. I've been interrupted I don't know how many times and now I need to grab something to eat fast and run out the door.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Glad Dylan is feeling better!

getting more sleep is always a good thing.

DH was working a job that could have supported us with me staying at home (barring the debt we were in), but was laid off. And despite many attempts, there just isn't work for him right now in that field that makes sense financially or hour wise. being a massage therapist, he actually makes far more per hour, with a much more flexible schedule than anything else I think he could do. It's just not enough to completely support us. And that's ok. Priority wise, it keeps the kids out of daycare and will allow us to homeschool, so in that much it is a choice. Or I could stay at home and never see him, have an awful home life and no break because he works endless hours. Jobs here suck.

Oooh, Chiropractor. Next week - I need to go more often. enjoy your adjustment!

Carrie: what is it with these babies/toddlers??? Norah is the same way, such a bolter! I do believe in leashes, but I am always forgetting. So stroller and babywearing it is! I only can let her walk when I have extra hands with me. I can't keep up with as fast as she will run. NIP is going to be fun with this next one. I am very glad I can nurse in a carrier.

So far, people are calling him Theo, but we'll see what happens once he arrives.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Kat - was gabe more of a stay close to mom kind of kid? Idk what to do! LOL! I feel like Finn is getting more used to holding hands. I'm ok with that, I prefer it. And it gives him more freedom than being worn or being in the stroller. When he gets frustrated with hand holding he drops to his knees, and that's when I'll pick him up.

I'm in the process of weaning finn to one side. I have bone crushing guilt over this. It seems so final and I hate myself for it, but i'm getting this awful repulsion when he nurses on the right side. His latch is fine, he's not being an acrobat. He sits and nicely nurses, but it just feels like twiddling. Only on that one side. I want to literally peel him off of me, and that's not healthy or working for me. This also happened when Nora was 18 months, so it must just be something about me.







I'm down to 2 sessions per day (mid morning, and midday) on the right side that I'm gritting my teeth thru. It's uncomfortable at times with engorgement. Anyone heard of anything like this? I'm still nursing freely on the left, and have no issues on that side.

I lost 1.8 lbs this past week on WW! first loss so far in a LONG time!


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Ava's appt went well. She's just under 20 lbs and 29.5 inches. I explained my position to her pedi when he asked me what shots we were doing today. He didn't really say anything so I just asked him point blank if that made him uncomfortable to wait. He said it did because his concern is Ava getting Pertussis, which as a cardiac baby, I can see his point. But she's had 3 out of 5 doses so we both agreed she would most likely be ok. I also asked his opinion on an action plan for us if Ava ever stopped breathing at home or was struggling to breathe. Since we are less than 10 mins from her hospital, my first inclination is to scoop and run if DH is home. He could drive while I do compressions. DH's inclination is to call 911. They are 2 mins away. So we asked her pedi and he was able to give us clinical advice as well as speak to what he and his wife did when their cardiac baby would have issues. They almost always scooped and ran. One time they called 911. He said that if I'm having to administer CPR, I should call 911. If I want to then start driving towards the hospital and have them catch up, that would be a good compromise. Ava waved goodbye to him and even blew him a kiss when he was leaving. She can be such a sweetheart sometimes!


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

She's grown, no!? Yay Ava! I'm glad you spoke about your concerns with the shots. I'm glad it wasn't an issue!

I would never think to not call 911 in that situation, is it actually faster/better to just go to the hospital ER? Is there a big risk at this time of her having an episode or an issue like that compared to a non CHD child?


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

She has grown. She's tracking along her own little growth curve so everyone is happy with that. Genetics still wants to see her in April for a follow-up so we'll do that. My instinct to scopp and run is based on me wanting to start the process to fix what's wrong. DH's inclination is to call for help. That makes us a pretty good team when Ava has had issues in the past. After one of her caths when she was in recovery, we were in the room alone with her and she started doing this choking/gagging thing and desatting. Without either of us saying anything, I sat Ava up, cleared her airway and started administering oxygen. DH ran for a nurse. By the time the nurse arrived, I had gotten Ava back to a good spot. If we lived further away from her hospital, I probably wouldn't be inclined to scoop and run. If I were home alone with her, I would definitely call 911. Ava's heart will never be perfect and she will get sicker as her right ventricle gets larger and weaker from not having the pulmonary valve. So yes, she does have a higher chance of respiratory distress or a cardiac event than a non-CHD kid.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Lauri - It just bears repeating. You are amazing.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

MW, Lauri - do Dylan or Ava have a lot of words? i was over my friends house today and her 17 mo old was TALKING! I was like OMG! He pointed to the tv and said, "Barney!" and then kept finding stuffed animal monkeys and saying, "monkey! Monkey!" and he was able to, when he demanded a "ma-na-nah" (banana), when his mom said, "Use manners, say please," He said, "Please, ma-na-nah!"

Ooooh I can't WAIT for talking!! I was like whoa that could be Finn in a month or two!!


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

One of the questions today on her 18 month eval was if she had 15-20 words. I had to count but she has about 15 words. She says "poop" when she's pooped, "bubble" when she wants a bath, "up" when she wants me to pick her up. One of the other questions was if she says two word sentences. She does NOT do that. Her pedi said that was fine.

When I stop and think about things we've had to do on this journey, it's just crazy to me. But it's like the frog in the pot thing. It's small things and all of sudden, you have oxygen in your house because your child can't breathe well when she eats. That's freaking crazy. Thankfully we are not there any more but it just becomes your normal, you know? You guys would do the same.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

if I think hard

tickle
mama
dada
yes
no
nora
this
that
boob

I think that's it...

he signs for sleep, all done, and milk.

I know we would all do the same for our babies, but I still think how gracefully you handle it all is inspiring.

house hunting is stressful!!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Ryan and Kellen were darters. Ethan was not. I could walk with him outside and he would always stay on the sidewalk. He never even stepped on the curb, much less try to step off it. He would go ahead of me but not too far and always come back on his own. I lost Ryan in a store once. It was scary. A woman found him and brought him to me. She was not very nice about it, very judgey. Whatever.







My mom lost Ryan at Ocean City once. She didn't tell me about that until like 3 years later because she knew I would freak. He was 5 or 6, I think, and was able to find his way to her car where he sat and waited. Pretty amazing considering she hadn't gone over what to do if that happened.

Dylan doesn't seem to be a darter so far. We walked around our neighborhood the other day. He did try to wander into the street a couple of times but got the idea not to pretty quickly. Yesterday, we were at the park and he was hanging back from the group a bit. A couple of times he slipped around a wall so I couldn't see him but was always just on the other side. He didn't try to run off or hide. I haven't tried walking with him in a store yet. I either put him in a cart, the stroller or in a carrier. I put him in my ring sling to go into the yarn store yesterday and he kept straightening himself like a board. He wanted to get down. I thought the ring sling would be a good idea because it is quick and easy and adjustable, but nope. I won't be using that again. I'll stick to my pouch, mei tai or Boba. Don't ask me why he doesn't try to straighten himself in the pouch.









He doesn't have many words. He can say poo and butt and that or what's that, although it sounds like wassat. He may have said Daddy a week or so ago but hasn't repeated it. He might be trying to say dog and cat but I'm not quite sure. He may have more. I, honestly, don't pay much attention to that. He doesn't sign at all.

That's actually one reason I refuse to do WBVs. I think it's ridiculous that they want me to fill out a huge packet of developmental type questions that have such a wide range of normal. It can cause worry and concern for parents who don't understand that even if the doc does tell them it's fine if they aren't here or there yet. I figure by now I'm experienced and attentive enough that I'll know if one of my children has an issue that I think needs addressing. Also, since we homeschool, those types of things just aren't very important. I don't have to worry about anyone being behind for school or needing special ed or accommodations.
Quote:


> DH was working a job that could have supported us with me staying at home (barring the debt we were in), but was laid off. And despite many attempts, there just isn't work for him right now in that field that makes sense financially or hour wise. being a massage therapist, he actually makes far more per hour, with a much more flexible schedule than anything else I think he could do. It's just not enough to completely support us. And that's ok. Priority wise, it keeps the kids out of daycare and will allow us to homeschool, so in that much it is a choice. Or I could stay at home and never see him, have an awful home life and no break because he works endless hours. Jobs here suck.


I forgot he had gotten laid off. What was he doing before?

But, yeah, that's the choice you have made to live the life you do. I have chosen to stay home, hardly see my dh because he's not home much, and never really get a break from my kids. It gets exhausting and frustrating sometimes but I wouldn't say my home life is awful. I definitely wouldn't choose to go back to work even though it would be very lucrative.

I should go to bed. Everyone else is in bed. I'm kind of enjoying the quiet for a bit. We discussed implementing a bedtime routine at our last counseling session. DH was supposed to start getting the kids ready for bed at 9 pm. He hasn't done it one night this week. Just tonight at around 10 or 10:30 he sat down in a chair in the living room and asked the room if we were going to bed or staying up until 11. Then he fell asleep.









We have a long weekend. I think he's going to try to put the new back door in. Maybe he'll start working on fixing the fence since we've been talking about getting a puppy again.

The chiro was nice. She adjusted all of us, including Kellen. Ethan and I go back again Monday but Kellen and Dylan don't need to go regularly. Did I tell you that she described a slight curvature in Ethan's spine that sounds exactly like the curvature I was told I had in my spine at about the same age from a scoliosis check at school? She said it isn't scoliosis and is most likely caused by his hips being crooked. Seems that he may have the same back construction that I do, which I probably got from my dad who has had back problems for as long as he can remember.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

I need to start going back to the chiro. I loved my weekly appts when I was pg. I don't have an extra $30/week right now but maybe in a couple of months.

Ava isn't much of a darter but we've been working on walking/staying with me since before she was walking. I would let her crawl around on the floor in stores and I would always remind her to stay with me. She's not running yet though so I may change my tune! I don't take a stroller or carrier with me when we go shopping. She just walks beside me or asks me to carry her. Sometimes she rides in the grocery cart but a lot of the time she likes to push it.

The questionaires were kind of silly in my opinion, especially the MCHAT one for autism screening. To me, the wording is such that you know the "bad" questions, if that makes sense. Then Ava's pedi said the word count question was wtong, it's only supposed to be 10 words at 18 months.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> Sometimes she rides in the grocery cart but a lot of the time she likes to push it.


I was out shopping somewhere last week and I saw a toddler pushing one of those small carts. So cute! Giving the LOs something to do alongside you can definitely help keep them close.
Quote:


> The questionnaires were kind of silly in my opinion, especially the MCHAT one for autism screening. To me, the wording is such that you know the "bad" questions, if that makes sense. Then Ava's pedi said the word count question was wtong, it's only supposed to be 10 words at 18 months.


See, why do they use it then? Why don't they correct that? I bet there are a lot of parents who don't know that and will get all upset that their child doesn't have the maximum # words, much less the minimum.

That's one really wonderful thing about unschooling. It doesn't really matter if your child has any supposed developmental delays. Since you are approaching life and learning from wherever the child is and what they are capable at the moment, they aren't ever behind or needing any special education. They are where they are and that's perfect.

Could you go to the chiro once a month or even once very two months? Some is better than none. I'm only able to afford this because we are refinancing and I just decided to splurge because I'm tired of being in pain. Plus, this new chiro who just opened up shop is very reasonably priced not including the extra military discount I get and I like her. She got very excited when I told her I had my last two babies at home, that they aren't vaccinated at all. Ethan and I are going once or twice a week now but soon we should be down to once a month and then only for maintenance every few months.

Did I tell you all that the last paycheck Sean got was sort of a fluke? It was low because the Marine Corps finally collected the money to pay for his food while he in the field doing training back in October. So, his paycheck should go back up to where it was.









Oh, and I wanted to add to what I said in my last post about my life not being awful. Yes, Sean and I are having some issues right now but that has nothing to do with me not working. It has a lot to do with Sean's job but that wouldn't be any different if I was working because he would still have the same job.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Our discussions about choices made me think of this: http://www.enjoyparenting.com/daily-groove/transcending-culture.

It is about dropping any assumptions or judgment or conditionality that you may place on anything and just see it for what it is. I think it lends to the idea that all choices are valid and equal until we add our own judgment or conditionality to them. The problem with that is that something that one person thinks is absolutely invalid or unreasonable or just can't be done may be the optimal choice for another. So, arguing that something may be a choice but it's not a reasonable or practical choice only applies to you, not to anyone else.

Here's another one:

http://www.enjoyparenting.com/daily-groove/be-unreasonable

http://www.enjoyparenting.com/daily-groove/no-consequences

There's a lot more here: http://www.enjoyparenting.com/daily-groove/titles

All of this is specifically geared toward parenting but it can be applied to any aspect of life.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Oh that's scary to lose a kid. I'm actually concerned about it. I'm thinking about getting the tattoos -- did I already talk about this? Hmm. Anyway they are temporary tattoos and you just put your phone number on them, in case the child wanders off in the store. It might be good insurance given my predicament with him!

I didn't give him much opportunity to crawl around w/me, I always wore him or put him in the cart. I think when it's your only little it's more common to let them wander near you. But with two it was much easier to keep him in the cart or contained and keep an eye on Nora. I don't think the lack of opportunity "caused" it, but I think giving us more opportunity now can only help (or frustrate me, or both...) I think Ava has more of the personality to stay close, too, like Nora and Ethan.

I don't mind the questions at WBV. It gives me a frame of where they should be. but I don't freak out about that stuff. I suppose it does freak out some parents tho -- but that is their problem for not being informed on the variations of normal. I don't feel like everyone should cater to people who are ignorant. I feel like people should educate themselves, and if they don't, then yeah they should stress and worry. I'm mean I suppose. But if those questions can actually catch a developmental issue or two in a child who could benefit from intervention, then please ask them. Don't not ask b/c stupid people might worry too much.

We have a busy weekend too. I'm going to take Nora for a hair cut today, and chris is going to finish up tile in the breezeway and also fix up and tile the stair that goes down into it. I have to do some housework. Then maybe target? Not sure if there will be time.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> Oh that's scary to lose a kid. I'm actually concerned about it. I'm thinking about getting the tattoos -- did I already talk about this? Hmm. Anyway they are temporary tattoos and you just put your phone number on them, in case the child wanders off in the store. It might be good insurance given my predicament with him!
> 
> I didn't give him much opportunity to crawl around w/me, I always wore him or put him in the cart. I think when it's your only little it's more common to let them wander near you. But with two it was much easier to keep him in the cart or contained and keep an eye on Nora. I don't think the lack of opportunity "caused" it, but I think giving us more opportunity now can only help (or frustrate me, or both...) I think Ava has more of the personality to stay close, too, like Nora and Ethan.


Hm...I don't know that I would want my phone number visible on my child. I wouldn't let him walk around unless I knew I could keep up with him. I'd keep him in a cart, stroller or carrier but then I also have to spend most of my energy making sure Kellen doesn't dart off or knock over a row of shelves.









Finn is too young for this but I read a snippet of a thing saying to tell your children to find a woman with children if they ever get lost or separated from you. Makes sense. Like the other day when we were at Target. Sean was with Ethan and Kellen so I let Dylan wander around while I followed. I took a split second to look at something and he was around the corner of an aisle. I saw him and was able to get to him quickly so I wasn't worried. When I turned the corner a pregnant woman was standing there talking to him. When she saw me she said she was going to wait with him to see if someone came. It all happened in a matter of seconds so he wasn't lost but that made me feel more safe knowing that someone would look out for him. I do the same thing if I see a young child who appears to be wandering by him/herself. KWIM?
Quote:


> But if those questions can actually catch a developmental issue or two in a child who could benefit from intervention, then please ask them. Don't not ask b/c stupid people might worry too much.


Maybe but a good doctor should be able to pick up on a developmental delay just by examining the child without having the parents answer all those questions. And, again, developmental delays are so subjective. There is so much variation on what children do when. I've expressed before my issues with EI.

I'm going to Hobby Lobby in Wilmington with a friend. I have to get in the shower.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

There's no way a physician would be able to see Ava do all the things that were asked on the questionaire. She behaves differently depending on who is around. Her pedi was in the room with us for a while and she didn't say much, she was coloring and looking at books. When my DH came in the room, she started talking to him and her pedi remarked "Oh, you really ARE verbal!" I don't think the questions are inherently bad, some of them are leading though. I see a wide range of child "knowledge" in my mainstream parenting group. I can definitely see the value in those questions.









I normally don't freak out if Ava wanders from me but we did have an incident in our local mall at Christmas time. Parents were walking and their 2 yr old was a couple of steps behind them. This guy walked up behind them, scooped up the child and started running. The dad chased him down. Very scary. So some stores I don't let her wander anymore. I try to listen to my gut.

Big kids are home. Two are pukey so hopefully that doesn't spread through the house. Tomorrow is Ava's one year anniversary of her repair surgery. Can't believe that was only a year ago. She's changed so much!


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Oh, one mom in my group with older kids, like 3+, made the password on her ipad her cell number so her son has to learn her cell number. She started with just the area code first and then every couple of weeks added some digits.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Wow, that is scary about that 2yo! Was the guy who snatched him arrested?

I hope the sickness doesn't spread through your house.

Well, no, I wouldn't expect a doctor to see everything a baby or child can do in one office visit but I still don't think those questions are routinely necessary. But, again, I have issues with the whole EI thing and routine medical treatment. I don't want anyone else all up in my business like that.







Personally, I think people make way too much out of that stuff. It seems that no one has a "normal" child anymore. Parents seem to be looking for the slightest issue in their child. I think that is prompted by the medical and educational system. They are all either gifted or delayed or something.







Can't we just let children be normal anymore?


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Annie ~ i keep forgetting that you asked about my cycles. this is my 5th cycle but I think only the last two were ovulatory. The one before that may have been but then my lp was really short, only 9 days. The cycle after that O was on cd28 and my lp was 10 days. The cycle I just finished O was on the same day, cd28, but my lp was 13 days. If I remember correctly, my cycles start being pretty "normal" when they first come back after having a baby but get less and less predictable as time goes by. I guess that's a PCOS thing. Pregnancy kind of resets my hormones but it doesn't last forever. Eventually, the PCOS caused them to get all out of whack again. I'm hoping that I'll be able to predict







based on my CF but it may get too confusing after a while since I usually have several patches of EWCF before I actually O.


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> I don't mind the questions at WBV. It gives me a frame of where they should be. but I don't freak out about that stuff. I suppose it does freak out some parents tho -- but that is their problem for not being informed on the variations of normal. I don't feel like everyone should cater to people who are ignorant. I feel like people should educate themselves, and if they don't, then yeah they should stress and worry. I'm mean I suppose. But if those questions can actually catch a developmental issue or two in a child who could benefit from intervention, then please ask them. Don't not ask b/c stupid people might worry too much.


Yes, this. It sucks for those who don't know enough to take it as guidelines and not flip the heck out, BUT I've also known parents who would really have benefited from having that information. There's a difference between kids who are just a bit behind the "normal" curve, and those who truly are in need of some intervention because of real developmental delays. But yeah, I can see how it could make a difference -who- is giving the evaluation and whether they're alarmist, or just take the information as another piece of information.

Having another big snowstorm todayt here. Blah. It never ends!

Tenley has started asking to go potty! Three times in the last three days, she's signed potty to me, and then started walking towards the bathroom when I asked her if she had to potty! Caught three big poops. I love not changing poopy diapers. lol


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

I definitely get your point about EI and labeling kids MW but here's the thing. I don't think that the majority of our population is going to give up standardized schooling any time soon. So if a kid is destined to be in a classroom, I would much rather them get EI so that when they are in the classroom setting, they are not so far behind or struggling. I've seen those kids in the classroom setting and it's heartbreaking. They need tools to be able to survive in the environment they been placed in.

The worst thing about the guy that tried to snatch the toddler was how the mall security handled it. They let the guy leave without getting his name or alerting police. There was talk about how they didn't want to detain someone for fear of lawsuit. The police only found out about it when the toddler's parents called and told them that night.

JJ, that's so awesome about Tenley and the potty! We haven't caught a poop in a few weeks. Oh well.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Oh and the guy was finally arrested but not for like a week later. So ridiculous.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *onetwoten*
> 
> Tenley has started asking to go potty! Three times in the last three days, she's signed potty to me, and then started walking towards the bathroom when I asked her if she had to potty! Caught three big poops. I love not changing poopy diapers. lol


very cool!

Wow about the mall security! what about a lawsuit if the guy had not been found by police to be arrested and had snatched another kid? I'd sue the hell out of the mall security if that happened!

I mentioned the unschooling as a big part of the reason why I'm not really concerned about that sort of thing. I know that other parents do think they need to be concerned if they are planning to send their kids to school. I think it's very sad that any kids need to worry about "surviving" in schools. I also think it's sad that so many parents think they don't have a choice. They have fallen for the idea that the government can care for and educate their "special needs" child better than the parents can. So sad. That's one reason I decided to homeschool. I experienced firsthand how horribly Ryan was treated in school and didn't want that to happen to any of my other kids.

I went to Hobby Lobby in Wilmington today with a friend and Dylan. I let Dylan wander around in the store a bit because he was not happy in the cart. He didn't try to dart away or wander off but he also wouldn't walk with me. If he didn't want to go where I was going, he would just not move.

I'm having a major issue with breastfeeding him. It is really driving me crazy. I can't stand it! He's constantly up and down and in and out of my lap. He nurses for probably not even a minute then wants to switch sides. He'll keep going back and forth like that many, many times. If I don't let him, he screams and cries and and pulls at me and tries to force himself into my lap and pull up my shirt. It's ridiculous. He will not leave me alone. I had to ask Sean to just take him away from me tonight because he would not get off me. The thing is that he doesn't really breastfeed. If something else comes along that's more interesting, he'll wander off to that for a bit. I don't know what he's doing. I don't know what to do about it. I don't want to wean him but I can't take it anymore!


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

One of the things that comes up a lot in my AP group is that idea that YES it is ok to set limits with older babies nursing habits. It's not the same as restricting nursing with a 2 or 3 months old. There's a point in which they can follow basic commands and have a basic understanding of the things we're telling them. Having these rules in place can help a lot of mamas feel like they're able to breastfeed for longer, rather than getting burnt out and stopping because they can't deal with the fuss. For example I won't let Tenley play around while she's nursing. She can nurse (generally) as often as she wants, as long as she's being respectful and calm. When she starts wanting to switch positions every 30 seconds, or trying to nurse upside down, etc etc, then she's done. She can come back and try again in a few minutes, but I don't "do" the crazy nursing. I know for a lot of moms, it's just another part of nursing, and if it works for them, then that's fantastic. But for me personally, it's not something I'm ok with. So... setting limitations, helps us to preserve our nursing relationship. If I had to deal with one of those nursing toddlers who nurse upside down over the mama's shoulder etc, I'd probably throw in the towel and pat myself on the back for 13 months well done. But because I can set limits, I know we'll make it a lot longer. So totally worth it, for me. I know you believe that any attempt to redirect the child is considered weaning though, and I know you want to avoid that, so I don't know if you're comfortable with that, but as I said, in my eyes, totally worth it.

As to how to do that... a lot of that fussing and trying to climb up and general anger that you mentioned. I just kept using a very calm voice and simple words to tell Ten that when we were going to nurse, we needed to sit nicely with mama. If you do ___ then you're telling me you're done nursing. Oh, you're trying to watch tv AND nurse, that's ok, we will nurse later when you're don'e watching tv. etc etc etc. And then I put her down, or beside me, and continue to repeat that until she's either a/ attempted another activity in between, or b/ calmed down and came back to nurse again. So much repetition, and yes, definitely have to get Rob to take her sometimes when I really feel myself getting frustrated, but as I said, for us personally, for the sake of our long term nursing relationship, I know it's the right choice to set guidelines so I'm as happy nursing her and she is to be nursing, kwim?


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> I don't know what he's doing. I don't know what to do about it. I don't want to wean him but I can't take it anymore!


You do what you have to do. You set gentle limits. You encourage him to focus. You give him something to hold so he isn't so fidgety. Or you tell him come back another time. It's a nursing relationship, you know that. You can't give him the experience and comfort he needs if you're frustrated at him.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *onetwoten*
> 
> One of the things that comes up a lot in my AP group is that idea that YES it is ok to set limits with older babies nursing habits. It's not the same as restricting nursing with a 2 or 3 months old. There's a point in which they can follow basic commands and have a basic understanding of the things we're telling them. Having these rules in place can help a lot of mamas feel like they're able to breastfeed for longer, rather than getting burnt out and stopping because they can't deal with the fuss. For example I won't let Tenley play around while she's nursing. She can nurse (generally) as often as she wants, as long as she's being respectful and calm. When she starts wanting to switch positions every 30 seconds, or trying to nurse upside down, etc etc, then she's done. She can come back and try again in a few minutes, but I don't "do" the crazy nursing. I know for a lot of moms, it's just another part of nursing, and if it works for them, then that's fantastic. But for me personally, it's not something I'm ok with. So... setting limitations, helps us to preserve our nursing relationship. If I had to deal with one of those nursing toddlers who nurse upside down over the mama's shoulder etc, I'd probably throw in the towel and pat myself on the back for 13 months well done. But because I can set limits, I know we'll make it a lot longer. So totally worth it, for me. I know you believe that any attempt to redirect the child is considered weaning though, and I know you want to avoid that, so I don't know if you're comfortable with that, but as I said, in my eyes, totally worth it.
> 
> As to how to do that... a lot of that fussing and trying to climb up and general anger that you mentioned. I just kept using a very calm voice and simple words to tell Ten that when we were going to nurse, we needed to sit nicely with mama. If you do ___ then you're telling me you're done nursing. Oh, you're trying to watch tv AND nurse, that's ok, we will nurse later when you're don'e watching tv. etc etc etc. And then I put her down, or beside me, and continue to repeat that until she's either a/ attempted another activity in between, or b/ calmed down and came back to nurse again. So much repetition, and yes, definitely have to get Rob to take her sometimes when I really feel myself getting frustrated, but as I said, for us personally, for the sake of our long term nursing relationship, I know it's the right choice to set guidelines so I'm as happy nursing her and she is to be nursing, kwim?


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Yeah, that's what I've been trying to do. This has been going on for months, though. Whenever he starts to do that, I tell him we will switch sides once but that's it. If he stops nursing and tries to switch again, that means he's done. If he starts having a fit, I put him down. Sometimes I have to walk away from him because he will continue to claw at me if he can reach me. Coming back a few seconds later to try again bothers me just as much. I'm like, if you're done, you're done. I'm not going to keep getting interrupted. I think he's finally starting to get the message, at least at night. Last night, he didn't cry so much and didn't fight me at all when I told him we were flopping over.

I wonder what the deal is, though, when he climbs in my lap to nurse but he obviously doesn't really want or need to nurse. This is a first for me. Ethan nursed often but he really wanted milk. Kellen was all business. He would only nurse every few hours, get his fill and was done and off. Neither one of them came back for little sips here and there. He's got my attention if he's just sitting there. He's actually more likely to lose my attention if he nurses because then I'll try to look at something on the computer or my phone.

I think at least part of the problem is that there is always a lot going on since there are so many of us always here.

Sean took him upstairs last night and he fell asleep on Sean's shoulder and slept with him until around 2 am. It was so nice not having him trying to flop all over me when we were trying to go to sleep. I think that might become a regular bedtime thing.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Baby_Cakes, are you guys house-hunting in the same vicinity where you live now or are you looking to move to a different town? I would get so stressed just thinking about packing but moving to a new house would be exciting. I'd love the purging aspect of moving.

MW, I wish I had some words of advice but I have no clue. Ava has started fighting sleep times again though and it's getting really challenging. She's physically hurting me sometimes. Last night, I just had to send her out of the bedroom and back out with the big kids because she was hurting me and I was getting so frustrated. She finally settled down and went to sleep but it was way past her bedtime. The last time she did this, her molars were coming in so I'm thinking maybe the pointy teeth are getting close to breaking through? She had already taken ibuprofen so she shouldn't have been in too much pain.

JJ, I love all the pics you posted of Ten this weekend. She's just absolutely gorgeous!

akind1, I can't wait to see your maternity pics!


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

*hugs* MW. It's so hard when you just want to fastforward the stage and yet know there's no gentle way to do so!!

I felt bad today, I told Tenley "later" for milk SO many times. But we spent the morning grocery shopping, with her on my back while we tried to get her to sleep, and then we came home, nursed like 3 times in two hours, and then went out to my SILs house for "late christmas". I nursed her over there twice, but then she kept asking over and over again, and I didn't want to sit on the side somewhere, I wanted to actually visit, especially since she was asking right after we'd finished nursing. blah. Not like she won't nurse her heart out tonight.

Anyways, I actually came by to celebrate!! She won't let me cuddle her to sleep anymore. If it's during the day and I'm trying to lay down with her to nap, I have to nurse her until she's almost out, and then force-swaddle her with my arms while she fusses for a few minutes, and then finally snuggles up to me. Otherwise she'll hype herself up flipping around the bed for an hour and not sleep. But at night when I put her to sleep, I nurse her until my nipple feels like its going to fall off, and then I unlatch her, and I used to cuddle her. The past few weeks, she's been increasingly insistent that I put her into her bed once we're done nursing. A few days ago, she actually started asking for "bed", in addition to reaching for it. So I always hug and kiss her, and then put her into bed, and sit in the rocker and play or read on my phone while she babbles and plays herself to sleep. Takes usually about 30 minutes or so, and the past little bit I've been frustrated that it doesn't seem to be decreasing in time. So I've been staying for 20 minutes or so, and then telling her I have to go potty or go tell daddy something, etc etc, and that I'll be back. And then in a few minutes I come back, and lay her back down. She usually calls for me, but doesn't actually cry or anything. And then I usually have to be back in the room before she'll fall asleep.

So tonight, I laid her down, waited about ten minutes, and then told her I was going potty and would be back in a little bit. She babbled to herself for about 15 minutes, and then fell asleep! Didn't even call out for me once, just totally content babbling (she talks to her baby while she's falling asleep). It was soooooo nice! Maybe she'll have a nice long stretch before waking too! She slept almost 6.5 hours straight the other day! Then again, both DH and I sleep like crap when she's not in the bed, so it's a catch 22. lol.

Alright, time to go read for a bit in bed!


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

JJ: Hoorah for progress! That is so exciting. My kids both want cuddles before bed. I would like to get Gabe in a routine where I could leave while he's still awake. . . but it's not been a priority.

And hugs for this hard nursing stage. (everybody)

Carrie - I 'm so excited for your house hunting. I love house hunting.

AFU: this weekend was full of surprises. first my sister announces she's pregnant - her first baby, she's about 10 weeks and due mid-august. She seems nervous and excited. A little concerned that baby is due right before the start of the new school year (But really, they were the ones using no protection, not planning on kids for another year or so and leaving it in God's hands, so I don't have any sympathy) so IDK if she's going to take time off, or if babe will go straight into daycare. She doesn't want to use daycare, but I don't see how her DH can support them on his own. Unless he starts working crazy stressful hours so she can . . . their choice. didn't get to talk much. Also, they are team Green (and she had no idea what that meant when I said it) - want to be surprised by gender.

next surprise - MIL's family wants to throw me a shower! considering she dragged her feet and BARELY threw me a shower last time - called it a drop in and served virtually no food or drink - I was SHOCKED that it even came up. 3rd baby and second boy with closely spaced kids . . . I didn't expect one. But hey. Not going to say no either. I do need newborn stuff. I'd love more newborn cloth, but they have no clue about that sort of thing.

Maternity pics went ok, despite cranky no nap kids not wanting to leave mama alone for solo shots. We wanted family ones too, and got those, but the kids did not want to leave me alone! LOL. I hope to see a couple sneak peeks this week.

I hope everyone else is doing well.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *onetwoten* [IMG alt="View Post"]https://www.mothering.com/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]
> 
> Then again, both DH and I sleep like crap when she's not in the bed, so it's a catch 22. lol.


Isn't that how it always is?














Glad it seems to be working out, though. You guys will adjust eventually.

I don't know if I told you all that once Ryan gets everything moved out and we get his room cleaned up we're going to move Ethan in there. Then I plan to start putting Ethan and Kellen to bed in their own rooms. I was going to have dh do it assuming that Dylan would want me but he did so well with Dylan the other night that I think we'll try it the other way around.

Now the thing is to get dh to get moving on time without having to tell him all the time. I hate that. I don't understand why he doesn't just do it. It's like he can't do anything without me, either. Even if he takes all the boys up to bed without me, when I go up 30 minutes to an hour later, they are all still up with the TV on and just messing around. DH says they are waiting for me. Why does he need to wait for me? Just get them in bed already!









He got the door up. It was messed up, defective somehow. But rather than returning it, dh decided he was going to make it work. Whatever but it took twice as long, he bitched and moaned the whole time and didn't include the boys at all even when they asked. Plus, when he said he was done, he wasn't really because the door still didn't close right. I had to tell him he couldn't leave it like that. He got pissy but I said, "Look, you are the one who says you want to do this so it will be done right because you care more than some random person we could hire, so then do it right." I told him no more doing the jobs himself. I am just going to hire someone whenever something comes up that needs to be done. It's not worth the time and aggravation to let dh try to do it. He fancies himself a handy man but he's really not.

I wouldn't know what Team Green was, either. It took me a minute before I got it.

That's cool about the baby shower. I bet you could find an online registry place to add the cloth diapers that you want. You can set up an Amazon wishlist and add anything from any website to it. It doesn't have to be just things sold on Amazon.

Dylan is very clingy. He wants to be on me all the time. I try to get him to sit next to me rather than on me so I can drink my hot coffee but he cries and pushes and pulls on me and tries to force himself on me. Making him sit somewhere else or me moving away from him makes it worse, I think. He just gets more clingy.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

It's the clingy baby season - Norah's been very mama, mama, mama all of a sudden. I like it sometimes, but mostly I love her independence!

I could do an online registry, but DH's family doesn't buy anything online, ever. They are serious in-store, old school people. Now, I have a friend that owns a cloth diaper online shop and she'd do a cloth diaper party, but it's weird to throw your own shower. I want to do it for someone else though! just need a guinea pig! That and this friend just had a baby 3 weeks ago. She deserves some time to enjoy her baby moon.

JJ: I miss my babies being in bed with me. But I also love the freedom to roll where I choose and be able to cuddle with DH.

MW: I really hope the boys' room transitions go well! it's exciting stuff.


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

I love having E in bed with me. I really mourned the day that M left my bed.

I just love the closeness, the convenience (nursing), I could go on and on.

My DH is unemployed at the moment. He left his job of almost 6 years due to harassment and mental abuse that he went through there.

DH has been on a lot of interviews so far. As soon as word came out that he left, all of Autozone's competitors wanted my husband.

He was a commercial sales manager there. Looks like he'll have a job in no time, but DH wants to shop around before he takes the first offer.

It has been so nice to have him home though. He is so helpful around the house. He was able to fix things that needed to be fixed, he cooks, he has been cleaning, taking me out to lunch. Its also good to see him smile. He was so miserable there.

We're very fortunate that we saved up some money so we'll be ok for a little while. He would've never left if we didn't have money saved away. The day he left it had gotten from bad to worse at work.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EuroMama*
> 
> I love having E in bed with me. I really mourned the day that M left my bed.
> I just love the closeness, the convenience (nursing), I could go on and on.


My nursling will still be with me. It's my 9yo and 5yo that my dh wants in their own rooms. I, honestly, would prefer to have them with me. I don't think our lack of closeness has anything to do with where the boys sleep. I think it has everything to do with my dh not helping with bedtime and going to bed by himself to sleep whenever he feels like it. I won't be surprised if what happens is that I end up sleeping with the boys in another room.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

I feel like i'm missing a ton but if I don't jump in now I'll miss even more!!

House hunting - we're looking to move out of our current town, but close by. We just need to be near train or bus so DH can get to manhattan within, like, 2 hours. He says 1.5 hours tops (he goes in every other week, and sometimes more often for meetings). And our current school district leaves a lot to be desired so we are also looking at towns with better schools.

JJ - your wording breaks my heart!!! I can't imagine not cuddling my kiddos to sleep. But I also know how hard this road has been for you and what amazing progress you've made with Ten in SUCH a loving and gentle way. My hat is off to you for sticking to your guns and seeing results.

Ten is gorgeous, btw. Her pics you post (even if they are months old) always make me so happy! She's such a doll!

I know what team green is! And I know I could never be on it!!


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> JJ: Hoorah for progress! That is so exciting. My kids both want cuddles before bed. I would like to get Gabe in a routine where I could leave while he's still awake. . . but it's not been a priority.
> 
> ...


The actual leaving while she was awake wasn't so much a priority, as I was just frustrated with it taking so long for her to fall asleep, and wanted to see what would happen. Interesting anyways. She'll probably need me in the room again tonight, and that's just fine!

That's nice! At least the thought's there, even if the followup ends up being a little less than stellar at the end!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> JJ: I miss my babies being in bed with me. But I also love the freedom to roll where I choose and be able to cuddle with DH.


Quote:



> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> JJ - your wording breaks my heart!!! I can't imagine not cuddling my kiddos to sleep. But I also know how hard this road has been for you and what amazing progress you've made with Ten in SUCH a loving and gentle way. My hat is off to you for sticking to your guns and seeing results.
> 
> ...


Same for team green! I'm just too OCD. I need to be able to plan the details that come with knowing the sex. Clothing, names etc.

Also... BAHAHAHAHA!! I realized my wording is totally misleading. She's certainly not sleeping in her crib alone all night yet! (Nor do I need her to!) I read a few books with her and then cuddle and nurse her in her rocker until she's allllmoooossstt asleep and chewing on my nipple, hurting me. Then I unlatch her, and this is where she reaches for her bed. And -eventually- goes to sleep. But then she comes in with us still once she has her first wakeup after we're in bed (or just about to go to bed). Usually this is like... 5 minutes after I climb into bed, so we're still awake. lol So I very rarely need to fall asleep without her in the bed. But nights like that other night where she slept 6.5 hours straight-- I had to fall asleep without her in the bed, and it's so weird!! She's normally in bed with us from around 1030 onwards. I'm definitely not ready to give up both her to sleep cuddles AND her warm body in my bed.

It's just weird because she literally won't cuddle me to fall asleep anymore, unless she's absolutely exhausted. She'll cuddle up nursing in my arms forever, but as soon as I unlatch her, she reaches for bed and doesn't want to cuddle. All I am is milk! lol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EuroMama*
> 
> It has been so nice to have him home though. He is so helpful around the house. He was able to fix things that needed to be fixed, he cooks, he has been cleaning, taking me out to lunch. Its also good to see him smile. He was so miserable there.
> 
> We're very fortunate that we saved up some money so we'll be ok for a little while. He would've never left if we didn't have money saved away. The day he left it had gotten from bad to worse at work.


DH and I went through that-- he was unemployed from the point I was about 7 months pregnant until Tenley was 6 weeks old. It was SO stressful worrying about money, but at the same time, I can't imagine those first 6 weeks without having him home! It was so nice to have time together during the last bit of my pregnancy and the early days of infancy. We also had a bunch of savings too, so we were ok. It just sucks because he was off longer than he should have been, and then I went on mat leave, so we haven't had a chance to build any savings back up. oh well. Time is more important!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *onetwoten*
> 
> It's just weird because she literally won't cuddle me to fall asleep anymore, unless she's absolutely exhausted. She'll cuddle up nursing in my arms forever, but as soon as I unlatch her, she reaches for bed and doesn't want to cuddle. All I am is milk! lol


a lot of times dylan will unlatch himself and roll over away from me when he's ready to actually sleep. it's kind of nice and kind of sad because he doesn't want to cuddle with me. i do have ethan and kellen to cuddle with. although, kellen usually gets upset at some point that dylan is in between me and him and scoots over to dh. that makes me sad, too. i wish i had three sides.


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> My nursling will still be with me. It's my 9yo and 5yo that my dh wants in their own rooms. I, honestly, would prefer to have them with me. I don't think our lack of closeness has anything to do with where the boys sleep. I think it has everything to do with my dh not helping with bedtime and going to bed by himself to sleep whenever he feels like it. I won't be surprised if what happens is that I end up sleeping with the boys in another room.


My 10 y/o left our bed when the youngest was born. I was so scared of him rolling onto my 12 month old.

Then, I got used to him not sleeping in our bed. I tried having him sleep with us when DH was out of town, but I just couldn't anymore. We produce a lot of body heat (DS1 DS2 and I) and the three of us in bed together is like being in a hot oven. I just couldn't sleep anymore.

Quote:


> DH and I went through that-- he was unemployed from the point I was about 7 months pregnant until Tenley was 6 weeks old. It was SO stressful worrying about money, but at the same time, I can't imagine those first 6 weeks without having him home! It was so nice to have time together during the last bit of my pregnancy and the early days of infancy. We also had a bunch of savings too, so we were ok. It just sucks because he was off longer than he should have been, and then I went on mat leave, so we haven't had a chance to build any savings back up. oh well. Time is more important!


We're looking at it like an unpaid vacation. I will miss him so much when he starts work again. I have to add though, he does work from home still and makes extra money by working on cars from our driveway. He can make a lot of money just in one day by working from home. He has build up customers over the years when he worked as a mechanic. He doesn't charge them an arm and a leg. I forgot to mention that. But, its so nice that he is cooking dinner right now. Its so hard for me to cook with a 12 month old attached to my body at all times.


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

My MIL drives me bonkers sometimes. She bought turbotax for the computer, does her federal, files it.

No problem. Its pretty easy breezy if you follow instructions. Keyword: INSTURCTIONS.

She is bitching, moaning and groaning, so I ask her what's wrong. She yells "Its asking me to pay for filing state, its supposed to be FREE!" I asked to look on the cover of the disc. I told her its not free. She bitches some more and is convinced it is free, it has to be, because last year it was free to file if you buy the disc. So I showed her the cover of the disc and showed her that nowhere on the disc or cover does it say "FREE!"

She then continues on her rampage about how it was free last year, so it must be free and she shouldn't have to pay to file state.

OMG WOMAN!!!!!!!! Will you READ, and LISTEN and SHUT UP!!!!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

There are ways to file state returns for free but they make it hard to figure out. I remember us going around in circles for a while last year because I knew it was supposed to be free but it kept trying to charge us when we went to file it. I finally found the special website that you had to use to get it for free. It was a pain in the butt.

My 3 boys and I were all very hot right after I had Dylan. We've cooled off quite a bit.


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> There are ways to file state returns for free but they make it hard to figure out. I remember us going around in circles for a while last year because I knew it was supposed to be free but it kept trying to charge us when we went to file it. I finally found the special website that you had to use to get it for free. It was a pain in the butt.
> 
> My 3 boys and I were all very hot right after I had Dylan. We've cooled off quite a bit.


Last year it stated on the disc that state was free though. This year it didn't. Hmmm. Now I feel like a bitch. But AF is about to turn its ugly head and I am impatient. lol


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

We've never bought a disc. We've always done it online. You can google free state returns and see what pops up. There's more than one site that does it.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *onetwoten*
> 
> Also... BAHAHAHAHA!! I realized my wording is totally misleading. She's certainly not sleeping in her crib alone all night yet! (Nor do I need her to!) I read a few books with her and then cuddle and nurse her in her rocker until she's allllmoooossstt asleep and chewing on my nipple, hurting me. Then I unlatch her, and this is where she reaches for her bed. And -eventually- goes to sleep. But then she comes in with us still once she has her first wakeup after we're in bed (or just about to go to bed). Usually this is like... 5 minutes after I climb into bed, so we're still awake. lol So I very rarely need to fall asleep without her in the bed. But nights like that other night where she slept 6.5 hours straight-- I had to fall asleep without her in the bed, and it's so weird!! She's normally in bed with us from around 1030 onwards. I'm definitely not ready to give up both her to sleep cuddles AND her warm body in my bed.
> 
> It's just weird because she literally won't cuddle me to fall asleep anymore, unless she's absolutely exhausted. She'll cuddle up nursing in my arms forever, but as soon as I unlatch her, she reaches for bed and doesn't want to cuddle. All I am is milk! lol


Oh then ok. I see what you mean. And LOL at the 5 min thing -- I hear you on that!!

Finn will also pop off and roll over. Bittersweet.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> There are ways to file state returns for free but they make it hard to figure out. I remember us going around in circles for a while last year because I knew it was supposed to be free but it kept trying to charge us when we went to file it. I finally found the special website that you had to use to get it for free. It was a pain in the butt.
> 
> My 3 boys and I were all very hot right after I had Dylan. We've cooled off quite a bit.


Tax stuff makes my head spin. DH takes care of all of that.

Speaking of sleep, tonight Nora allowed me to sit at the foot of her bed. I keep falling asleep with her every night, and it really messes me up for the night. So I told her I would lay for 10 min then sit for 10. I was ready for her to be upset (I didn't really look at the time, I was watching her to make sure she was drowsy) but she didn't. She just whispered, "I love you mama," when I sat up. Love that girl! We are in SUCH good place right now. Both kids and I are. And DH and I are ok right now. I feel such balance and peace (which is crazy b/c we are so stressed about moving!)

did I tell you guys she learned to tie her shoes!? All by herself. This wasn't even on my radar. Never thought twice about it before. About a week ago I bought/ordered new running shoes and she asked if I could buy her tie shoes. I said sure and she picked them out. They came and she was SO EXCITED. LIke jumping up and down as the UPS man came to the porch. He even said she made his day being so excited!

She plopped down and I barely had to show her once. She just did it. And now she does it w/o even thinking! She just plops down and ties her own shoes!! It's incredible. Absolutely incredible.


----------



## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> did I tell you guys she learned to tie her shoes!? All by herself. This wasn't even on my radar. Never thought twice about it before. About a week ago I bought/ordered new running shoes and she asked if I could buy her tie shoes. I said sure and she picked them out. They came and she was SO EXCITED. LIke jumping up and down as the UPS man came to the porch. He even said she made his day being so excited!
> 
> She plopped down and I barely had to show her once. She just did it. And now she does it w/o even thinking! She just plops down and ties her own shoes!! It's incredible. Absolutely incredible.


Wow! Go Nora!

I have a photo session scheduled for Ava on Thursday. We're going to do a valentine/heart theme. And then she has her first toddler tumbling class on Friday. I'm so excited to see if she likes it. She loves to do flips and flop around on the bed.


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> Oh then ok. I see what you mean. And LOL at the 5 min thing -- I hear you on that!!
> 
> ...


Wow!! GO NORA!! That is amazing!!!


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Wow - read back and didn't realize all I missed!

We haven't had a well baby visit since around the 2 month mark. But even the questions at those are a bit silly - how often and for how long does he/she nurse (um. . .whenver, for as long as it takes?) I am never even good at knowing how many diapers we go through per day. DH took Gabe for one and was floored by the "bottle or breast" question . . . he's like "both?" because Gabe got pumped milk in a bottle when I was at work, and some other times too. Much as I'd love all parents to be informed and educated about all things baby and kid related, what's normal, etc, alot of them are just clueless - So for those parents, I think WBV and questions aren't a bad thing. As for EI . . .it depends on the kid. I think, for SOME kids, EI is really necessary and important. Many parents do not have the time or skill set to help the kids on their own, and some kids have true developmental delays, and giving them a leg up is really a wonderful thing. BUT - most kids will generally catch up on their own. And since most will end up in the school system, giving the tools and skills to manage in that environment is a good thing. I know crunchy parents who wanted to home/unschool but then were faced with a child that both needed more than they could give, and who they found actually seemed to thrive in an environment away from home. so I'm a little meh on EI. If Gabe were evaluated, he'd probably be labeled as having speech delays. But his language and enunciation is growing by leaps and bounds, just maybe not as quickly as a kid in daycare or something.

JJ: It's just nice knowing you are in a good place with her sleep - I know it's been a struggle. and yay for photoshoots! I can't wait to see more of my maternity session.

Carrie: that's what I want to do with Gabe, but I need a clock in his room! I *think* he'd be ok with it. and hooray for shoe tying! I'm glad all of you are in such a peaceful place.

Lost kids . . . Gabe wanders, but hasn't ever really gone out of earshot - yet. Norah . . . I am giving her more opportunity to walk, but I have to restrict that for when I am out with DH or a friend or something. I can't keep up with her by myself (not pregnant, with Gabe too) though we've made a game of Gabe "catching" Norah that's been helpful. Mostly she's just thrilled to explore, but she touches and destroys things far more readily than Gabe did. Need to teach the find a mom trick though.

As of tomorrow - 6 weeks to go. I need to focus on house cleaning and other readiness. We want to make a Charlotte trip next month. Really it would be ideal to do in March, after my bonus, But I think that's a bad idea. (though there is a wonderful natural - meaning water birth, unmedicated, etc- birth friendly hospital in Pineville, outside of Charlotte, should I go into labor on the trip . . .)


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Carrie ~ I saw that on FB but I don't think you mentioned that she just sat down and did it herself. That's very cool!









I agree that there are some children who probably would benefit greatly from EI just as there are some women who really need to go to a hospital to have their babies with an obstetrician (those who truly need surgery). But just like with the one-size fits all maternity care in this country, one size WBVs can cause more problems than it fixes. I have been doing this parenting thing for 21 years now so I have a long span of years to have experienced myself how things have changed. Developmental delays and EI and IEPs and all that sort of thing have exploded. It's become big business. And parents are jumping on the bandwagon looking for anything and everything that might be "wrong" with their children. Every little quirk or oddity is a disorder that needs treatment. It's ridiculously out of hand. I think a lot of that starts with medical practices that pass out these questionnaires to everyone who walks in the door. There used to be a time when a doctor would see children a few times and say to the parents, "Hey, there might be an issue here. I think further assessment would be helpful." The doctors would notice this sort of thing individually without questionnaires being passed out to everyone to catch every possible little difference. It is narrowing and narrowing what is normal to a tiny, tiny hole so that everyone is a square peg who can't fit in.

Then schools feed it even more with their standardized tests and one way of teaching and expecting all children to learn and perform. Anyone who does not do well that one way is a problem, has a problem, needs fixing. It's the system that needs fixing, not the children.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

I don't disagree with any of that in the least. One friend whose son has been diagnosed as autistic (I nearly put that in quotation marks, bc she doesn't really agree with the diagnosis) - said when she questioned it, the doctor was like, but he'd miss out on all thes great services! (a therapist comes to the house 3 times a week and goes with him to 2x a week preschool - all paid for by the state) - and I think it's one of those things that some people see as wonderful - look at all this free stuff!!! - and other people see as intrusive, unnecessary, and a hassle. People hate giving up things that might benefit their kids. I don't see generally, where EI is harmful. I don't know that does much good, but it doesn't seem to hurt anything.

Now IEPs, etc, OMG. those things are a major PITA. For everybody. I hate the school system as it exists today - especially where we are. There are parts of the country where it's not as bad, but getting into those school systems is crazy.

Gabe is so funny - he only accepts honey nut cheerios as "cereal with milk" - any other cereal just will not suffice.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I think EI can be harmful if it makes the child feel like they are somehow lacking or messed up or in need of fixing. You may not see that result or reaction at first in a young child because they don't fully understand what is going on. They see what they are doing maybe as just fun, kind of in the same way that kindergarten is (or at least used to be) fun and games and storytime and naps with no work so school was fun in kindergarten. But then the child goes to first grade and slowly realizes that they have to do all this work and there's really not much time for fun anymore. In the same way, a very young child might think that having someone come to their house to "play" with just them is fun and makes the child feel special. Then they get old enough to understand that the person was there because someone decided the child had dyslexia or autism or speech problems and it becomes an entirely different feeling. It's not really about what is best for the child when someone says something like, "But he'll miss out on all these free services," (which aren't really free, by the way, because you and I and the parents are paying for them with their taxes).


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

I've got this one mama on my DDC group freaking out all the mamas b/c most of our babies only have a handful of words. She's already got her 18 mo old in EI b/c of all the free services, and she's "not taking any chances" etc etc. Omg. I just keep reassuring all the first time (and second time and 3rd time) moms that a handful of words is well within normal and EI isn't NECESSARY. It's just so redic. She's saying normal for right now is 50-100 words! WTH? No, no no. No it isn't. I'm sorry, but no. Stop worrying your friends. B/c in our DDC at this point we all know each other well, and we know her older children have some special needs, but why does she need to pidgeon hole the youngest now just b/c of the others??

/end rant.

OMG worst night ever in a long time. Need coffee. BBL.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

I hate freak out moms. IDK what's normal at this age, but Norah has hmm, between 15-20 words - possibly more. I've not had my coffee yet, so I'm sure there are some I'm forgetting. some she uses regularly, others we've heard clear as day at least once or twice, but not everyday. Gabe wasn't this verbal or verbose. She seems very close to putting 2 words together - which he didn't do much of until he was nearly 2.

I love the mamas in Norah's DDC. they are laid back and all variations of crunchy and so non-judgey. awesome. And 3 of us are about to have babies again (one is due in 2 1/2 weeks, one in 4 weeks, and me in 6)

Carrie: rough night here too - N was sooo restless! crazy. The moon was really bright last night and you could see Jupiter. IDK if that's any bearing at all. Enjoy your coffee.

Baby T is crazy active this morning, and I've not had coffee yet. I have a hard time trying to pin down his position. Probably bc he's not pinned down. LOL.

Gabe is getting overwhelmed with emotions sometimes - usually sadness - and I have no clue how to help him, as he can't verbalize WHY he's sad. I can get him to say what will make him feel better, and gauge by that whether it's just toddler drama or real sadness (mama hug kiss make all better - real tears. M&Ms make all better = toddler drama) but I feel so helpless and just want it to stop (it's loud, I don't understand it, and don't we all prefer happy kids?)

OTOH I was proud of him last night - he hit his friend in the face (being 3 year old boys, I'm fairly sure that it wasn't completely unprovoked, but as the other kid has the verbal skills to tattle . . .) - I gave Gabe a choice - he could go sit with daddy and not play, or say sorry to his friend. No hesitation - he went to his friend and said sorry. I don't force apologies, but I do want to encourage them when appropriate and expected. Now, Gabe hasn't ever said I'm sorry to Norah for hurting her . . .he'd rather sit on the couch and have a time-in. Figures.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> I hate freak out moms. IDK what's normal at this age, but Norah has hmm, between 15-20 words - possibly more. I've not had my coffee yet, so I'm sure there are some I'm forgetting. some she uses regularly, others we've heard clear as day at least once or twice, but not everyday. Gabe wasn't this verbal or verbose. She seems very close to putting 2 words together - which he didn't do much of until he was nearly 2.
> 
> ...


Oh Gabe! LOL! Glad he said sorry. IMO that's not a forced apology by any means. I think that's pretty awesome he went and apologized! Especially b/c yeah, who knows what happened first.

Are you belly mapping w/spinning babies? That always helped me. Can be frustrating but I remember it helping!

Ok I'll blame Jupiter. Sounds good to me. Nora wanted to sleep with us but somehow once I climbed in bed she grew 8 more knees and 12 more elbows so after an hour of being kicked and yes, elbowed in the face, I carried her to her room. She slept fine. Finn tho. OMG. His eyeteeth are bugging him (or Jupiter) so he just wakes up a lot and man. Up for the day SCREAMING at 445 am. I got so angry. I really did. But I calmed down quickly and rocked and tried. No dice, he may have dozed for a min here or there. Now it's 730 and he's walking around like a drunk man! LOL! Yeah buddy, I bet you're tired! Ha!

My DDC has a secret FB group and we've had some drama lately but the core ladies are pretty freaking awesome. I really enjoy having them. Some of them and I even text and talk privately. Love my girls!!

Ok. Gotta do my hair, pack Nora's lunch, get these kids dressed, and get to school. Another cold day today! BRRR!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Carrie ~ Have you tried searching for and posting some info on what's normal and how there's such a wide range that's almost always good. Progression is more important that what they actually know. Like I say with one of my issues with schooling or teaching rather than learning, I want my kids to know how to find the answers they need, to learn, rather than just being able to spit out memorized answered to specific questions.

Not to be contrary (by maybe I am







) when the only two choices someone has is to apologize or be punished and they apologize, that's a forced apology.

I don't think I have anything to do today.







We have our counseling appointment tonight. I'd like to get my hair washed before that. Other than that, nothing.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Meh - when I was Gabe's age I just shut down or screamed. I wouldn't apologize for anything. LOL. And sitting with daddy isn't really meant to be a punishment - I don't consider it such. A consequence, but not a punishment - he'd probably just end up playing with DH's cell phone. He tells DH and I sorry all the time for stuff (that doesn't require apology - no harm done. He sees us trip and says "sorry mommy" even though he didn't cause it) right now, what I'm trying to get across is when it's appropriate and expected to apologize. We rarely have issues like this - where he's causing another kid hurt (other than Norah) - so it's a learning/teaching opportunity.

Now, when our friends (whose kid was hurt) was told to stand still, arms by sides and tell each us "good night MISTER or MISS so-and-so" or he'd be spanked - that's forced. and just wrong.

MW: I think you like being contrary 

and hooray for counseling! and clean hair!

Carrie - I've not tried mapping this baby yet - his movements aren't consistent - it really helps to know where the big and little movents are felt (feet and hands) - and honestly, with this guy, I feel them all over. My belly is always changing shape - the only consistent thing I've noticed is he likes to lean to the left like Norah did. He goes from having his back out and to the left, to spinning somehow posterior (it's hard to tell which way he's facing when I can't feel a spine) - it's frustrating. He's got all kinds of time to move into an optimal position, I'm not worried about that, its just that all the moving is becoming not so pleasant  Reassuring though.

How was your coffee?


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

well there's forced and then there's...suggested? expected? socially acceptable?

You really don't ever ask for an I'm sorry? I just feel like it's so ...hard! I mean, if I bump into someone, I'm expected to say sorry. If I hurt DH or either of the kids by accident, I say sorry. If I purposely hurt someone (tho I can't imagine why I would) I would def say sorry. This is what we do as people. Enlighten me as to what part of it I'm missing!! Do we just model it and hope they absorb that behavior?

Ugh i'm up in arms this morning. Emotionally it's just not been a great day. My good friend just texted me she let her 2 yo CIO last night. WHY do people message me practically looking for SUPPORT???? I had to grit my teeth and tell her in as nice a way that I could that I don't feel like anything I say could be supportive, and that I could help her troubleshoot her DDs wakings but I could not hear about her leaving her alone to cry at night. She just potty trained, she has a brand new baby brother, she's talking a ton, and she is probably lonely and scared in her new big girl bed. She said she didn't know what else to do. I replied, "She's a baby. You deal."

I'm tough about this. I'm passionate against this. Idk why now 2 friends come to me telling me about it! If you're going to do it, do it and keep it out of my brain!!! You know? Sigh. anyway I know we can't go on too much about it on mdc so I'll stop there but man. Not a great morning!! I need a cookie or something.

MW i did post one link on a super mainstream page about what's expected by 18 mo. It's just redic to think a toddler this age SHOULD have that many words, and that if they do it means nothing is ever going to be wrong. I mean some of our babies are talking a ton (and like I said my gf's son had a TON more words than Finn) but that doesn't mean much of anything, really. It's just neat and part of them growing and learning.

Kat - coffee was good!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> MW: I think you like being contrary


Not really, but I do like to give a different perspective. I know the time-in with Daddy wasn't meant as a punishment but look at it from a child's POV. Either apologize or don't play with your friend. If he's done playing and that was part of the reason why he hit his friend, then sitting with Daddy might be a relief. If he's not dong playing, though, and hit for some other reason, not being allowed to play anymore could be perceived by him as a punishment. He wanted to keep playing with his friend so he apologized. If he weren't given either of those two choices, what would he have done? Apologized or just kept playing?

No, I don't ever expect or ask for an apology from my kids. I apologize to them and to others in front of them for my behavior and theirs. That way they learn when it's appropriate to apologize and they also learn what a sincere apology is. Have you ever gotten an insincere apology from someone? Couldn't you feel that they didn't really mean it? Did hearing it make you feel any better? Usually, an insincere apology is done/used so the person apologizing can get something s/he wants. It has nothing to do with truly feeling bad about what happened to the other person. I'd rather not get an apology at all.

I, personally, can't stand it when someone apologizes to me for something that has nothing to do with them. That shows that they have learned to say the obligatory apology without really understanding the meaning (adults, not children because they are still learning). My dad does that a lot. I just tell him that he doesn't have anything to be sorry for because it's not his fault.

My mother, on the other hand, never apologizes for anything she does. She apologizes for the way I feel about or react to something she's done. That's even more ridiculous. You're sorry that I am hurt by what you did? Really?! Why not rethink what you did if I am hurt by it. My mom says things like, "I'm sorry you don't like that I did this in your house but this is the way I do things and I'm not going to do them differently just because I'm in someone else's home." Ok, maybe not exactly verbatim but that's the gist. It doesn't make sense to her where I put my dishes so she puts them away somewhere else, doesn't tell me where they so that I can't find them when I need them, and then tells me too bad, so sorry you don't like it.









So, in that case, I would talk about how the other child was hurt. Ask him is he was ok, if he needed anything, maybe give him a hug depending on the relationship, and tell him that I was sorry that my child hurt him. I would ask my child if he was feeling overwhelmed, getting tired, wanted to stop playing. If he wanted to continue to play, I would tell him that I would not let him hurt other people and if he did it again, we would stop playing/leave, whatever might be needed. Sometimes kids do need to be removed from a situation and it may still seem like a punishment to them but we can say and do things so that we aren't giving them the message that they are being removed because they are bad. We can use those situations for helping them learn when they have had enough and need to take a break.

I do have a hard time with expecting an apology from Sean when he says something hurtful. I don't know if that's ok or not. On the one hand, I understand that I am ultimately responsible for how I feel. I don't have to let what he says get to me when I know it's not true and he's only saying it because he's angry. OTOH, it would be nice for him to tell me he didn't really mean it. KWIM?


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

My 10 year old did not talk very much until he was almost 3 years old. E is almost 13 months old and has a few words.

I am not worried about it. Kids will do everything at their own pace, not when we think they should talk.

I hate it that people thought my oldest son was autistic based only on his speech delay. It drove me nuts.

We would take him to the Ped. for an eari nfection and they wanted to sent me to a OT to work on his speech.

He was only 2 years old for crying out loud. I never took him to the OT and he talks just fine today. ;-)

About apologies. I try to show my children that there are times it would be appropriate to say you're sorry, but I never make them.

I can't make someone say they're sorry. I cannot stand it when people tell me they're sorry, when its obvious they are not. Its lying to me. I don't teach my kids to lie. If they are not sorry, they are not sorry.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Maybe "like" isn't the right word. I feel that it's important for me to express my differing view point. Not because I want to start an argument or anything like that but because I think it's important to let other people see that there are differing opinions. If no one ever expressed any contrary ideas to routine circumcision, it would continue without question. If no one expressed their disagreement with the notion that women should breastfeed in private or in public bathrooms or the like, that's where we would all be banished. Same with high Cesarean rates and spanking and corporal punishment in schools and on and on and on.


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> I've got this one mama on my DDC group freaking out all the mamas b/c most of our babies only have a handful of words. She's already got her 18 mo old in EI b/c of all the free services, and she's "not taking any chances" etc etc. Omg. I just keep reassuring all the first time (and second time and 3rd time) moms that a handful of words is well within normal and EI isn't NECESSARY. It's just so redic. She's saying normal for right now is 50-100 words! WTH? No, no no. No it isn't. I'm sorry, but no. Stop worrying your friends. B/c in our DDC at this point we all know each other well, and we know her older children have some special needs, but why does she need to pidgeon hole the youngest now just b/c of the others??


Ugh. Yeah, that's not the good kind of EI. That's just flipping out over nothing. I think EI should be more for kids who genuinely do have deficits- ie I babysat a little boy who at 4, still didn't use any consonents at the beginning of words. for instance "I want to go to the park", came out "i an o eh ou a arrrrkkkk" His mother ignored it. At 9, he still is barely intelligible. Or, also babysat for a little girl who was a preemie, and at 18 months was **** obviously showing that she could not/would not weight bear on her legs. Not just wouldn't walk, but if you tried to stand her up on your lap even, she acted like a 2 month old. She saw a therapist to help her out. These cases, I think warrant it. But not having a dozen words by 18 months? Blah. Just give them time. Like MW said, as long as there's progression, and -some- new skills being mixed in, it's all variations of normal.

Quote: 


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> Meh - when I was Gabe's age I just shut down or screamed. I wouldn't apologize for anything. LOL. And sitting with daddy isn't really meant to be a punishment - I don't consider it such. A consequence, but not a punishment - he'd probably just end up playing with DH's cell phone. He tells DH and I sorry all the time for stuff (that doesn't require apology - no harm done. He sees us trip and says "sorry mommy" even though he didn't cause it) right now, what I'm trying to get across is when it's appropriate and expected to apologize. We rarely have issues like this - where he's causing another kid hurt (other than Norah) - so it's a learning/teaching opportunity.
> 
> Now, when our friends (whose kid was hurt) was told to stand still, arms by sides and tell each us "good night MISTER or MISS so-and-so" or he'd be spanked - that's forced. and just wrong.


 That does suck. I'm on the fence with the apology thing. We've started making 'please' a priority with Tenley, mostly because she doesn't have the other words, but does know please, so otherwise she just grunts and squeals, which drives us nuts. So we're trying to encourage her to say Please and point to the thing instead. And we model thank you, and sorry, but I don't expect those to come for a while. But I mean Gabe isn't 18 months anymore, so I can get why there's a desire for him to learn appropriate situations when I'm sorry would be warranted. I think given that it was a physical violence issue, I don't think it's totally out there to request that he say sorry (acknowledge that what he did was wrong), or take some time to sit and cool down for a while with daddy. You're giving him the opportunity, and you could look at it like this-- if he doesn't want to say sorry, that's similar to saying that he doesn't think there's anything wrong with what he did- the hitting. So as a parent in a public setting, I think it's reasonable then to expect a natural consquence of that situation is for him to be removed. If he doesn't think the hitting is wrong, then there's a chance he's going to do it again. So you remove him from the setting (going to sit with daddy), so he isn't tempted to hit again.

Maybe I'm talking myself in circles. We didn't sleep well last night either. lol.

Tenley's playing with her Little People house right now. I <3 when she does this. But she won't let me play with her. As soon as I go over, she looks at me funny and finds something else to do. So I just sit here and secretly watch her. lol. She's ringing the doorbell, and putting them in the bath and on the potty. She's also brought the goat home with them. lol.

Soooo... trying to convince DH to do a beach vacation this winter/spring. Probably March or April. Our passports both expire in September, AND Tenley is free under two, so until Nov. So it makes sense to go this year, when we can travel free with her (and not have to renew our passports right away, which will be about $150 extra I think. We could really use a vacation. Really. Also, I just got my vacation paid out from qork, and it's about $1000. Plus we've got $900 in RBC points to use. Seat Sale AIs should run us about $800-900 a person, so the points already pay for one person. I'd have to work an extra 8-9 shifts at work, and then that would pay for the vacation totally. That's not that bad. This week alone, they've wanted me to work two other shifts I've turned down. Anyways... the catch, is I said we can't go until I get back in shape. I want to strut my stuff on the beach, and then the vacation will be my reward. I can totally do it, if I put in the effort. It's freezing out here, but I can do some videos at home, and I think I'm going to start taking Tenley to the pool more often- it's only $6 I think to get in, and there's a track I can use with the stroller too, so we can either swim then run or run then swim. On a track like that, I could probably alternate walking and jogging for an hour. That's a lot of calories burned, especially adding swimming into it.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *onetwoten*
> Anyways... the catch, is I said we can't go until I get back in shape. I want to strut my stuff on the beach, and then the vacation will be my reward. I can totally do it, if I put in the effort. It's freezing out here, but I can do some videos at home, and I think I'm going to start taking Tenley to the pool more often- it's only $6 I think to get in, and there's a track I can use with the stroller too, so we can either swim then run or run then swim. On a track like that, I could probably alternate walking and jogging for an hour. That's a lot of calories burned, especially adding swimming into it.


YOU CAN DO IT!!! How is the C25K going? I meant to ask you the other day and I totally forgot. Can you do DVDs? I just ordered a new jillian michaels one. i'll lyk how it is!

ETA - I'm frustrated b/c my weight really isn't budging. I lost that 1.8 but I snuck in an early weigh in this morning and I"m right back where I was. So frustrating! I'm running all the time and eating all my points, not going over. I stopped drinking wine (only on weekends, and not excessive, always counting). I'm so annoyed. So. Hoping adding in the dvd will help. I feel less bloated and my jeans fit way better so it's got to be doing something, just not seeing the # on the scale.


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

JJ- There are also a ton of work out stuff on Youtube.  You can do it!!!!


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Polite words: "Please" we actively encourage - do you want X - say "please" or if he's being contrary, give whomever a kiss or hug or high five (the things he gets are treats, it's not like he's saying please for things that are just expected like meals). thank you and you're welcome we've modeled - but not at all really encouraged him to say, and he's picked those up and uses them, mostly appropriately, all the time. Sometimes we go round in circles - him saying "thank you mommy" me going "you're welcome, Gabe" back and forth for a few minutes. - I was kind of surprised when he started that.

Sorry is harder - because I don't believe in having kids say they're sorry when they are clearly not. Gabe I could tell was at the least embarrased - and seemed a bit contrite -, and I don't think entirely understanding of what was going on. We talked about it more on the way home. I think generally, in most play group situations, there is an expectation of apology or removal - and I think we handled it kindly (I know some parents are very stern or yell when dealing with it - I think because they are embarrased themselves that the kids' behavior reflected badly on them) I don't tend to think that way, especially in this case when clearly the other kid wasn't really hurt - I think he was more surprised than anything else.

And at 3, I think he can start to grasp the give and take of an apology. Now, Norah is 15 months and if she were to hurt someone else, I'd apologize on her behalf - she's got no clue yet about what she's doing - and also remove her from the situation a bit. She does grasp gentle and will change to gentle touch when reminded.

JJ or Carrie can't tell who asked: hooray for vacation! Do you have cable or satelite? I ask bc if you have On Demand sort of options, you can find work out stuff there.

I'm enjoying this last bit of kind of freedom before buckling down and being healthy and excersising more. That's silly, I know. But right now, I feel I have an excuse to eat how I like, and I will continue to do that for about 6 months PP. I need to amp up my activity level though. I want to make it a habit, and not a temporary change, which is why I'm dallying. It's one reason I'm glad to go ahead and get all the babies/breastfeeding and stuff done with, so I can focus on achieving optimal health without thinking about backsliding during a pregnancy and new baby stage.

Carrie: if you've hit a plateau - you need to change it up a bit if you can. do you do any weight stuff? or just cardio? mix up your diet some -

EM - always good to hear from you! ack on autism. Everyone wants to join on that bandwagon. (why I really have no idea) -


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> I'm enjoying this last bit of kind of freedom before buckling down and being healthy and excersising more. That's silly, I know. But right now, I feel I have an excuse to eat how I like, and I will continue to do that for about 6 months PP. I need to amp up my activity level though. I want to make it a habit, and not a temporary change, which is why I'm dallying. It's one reason I'm glad to go ahead and get all the babies/breastfeeding and stuff done with, so I can focus on achieving optimal health without thinking about backsliding during a pregnancy and new baby stage.
> 
> ...


Enjoy it! Eat for me! I'll have margaritas for you if you have ice cream and stuff for me! LOL!

I'm the same way. Now that I'm 99% sure we are done with kids, no excuses, you know? I could get in awesome shape and just maintain it, w/no preg to get in the way of that. And sooner than I know it (sniff sniff) finn will wean and my body will be my own, and then I can hopefully get really serious.

Idk if it's a plateau or if I'm just really doing something wrong. Or if this is just where I'm going to be until I'm done bf'ing. Hard to be in this limbo stage!! But going to try adding in some more resistance training and hopefully working out with jillian will help!


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

I've heard that weight training can be very good once you've hit that plateau because it world different muscles.

I love the Jillian mchaels DVDs. I don't have the newest one though. I just need to be better at actually putting it on and doing it.

My problem right now isn't weight really, I think I'm hovering just under 130, it's a complete lack of tone, and my whole middle section- tummy, love handles and bum, are very flabby, and since there's no underlying muscles, there's nothing to pull it all in. I think once I tone, the weight will end up staying bout the same because ill be losing fat but gaining some much needed muscle.

Most of it I think will be fixed with just cardio, and then the 30 day shred will fix the rest. Just need to get up the oomph to do it!

C25k... Haven't done it since!! Lol we got a cold snap again and haven't been able to go outside. That's why I want to try the pool/track.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Ugh. Exercise stuff. I need to do it. I had committed to starting small, doing squats, pushups and situps three times a week and as typical, our sleep took a nose dive and I've been napping again while Ava naps. But I need to get back in to doing it. I would like to get the Jillian Michaels' 30 day shred. I've heard it's awesome. But I want to start with my first commitment so I don't hurt myself and get discouraged.

Word count...when I filled out Ava's chart last week, it asked if she had 15-20 words but when I met with her pedi, he said for 18 months it's actually more like 10 words. So that lady in your DDC Baby_Cakes needs to chill the eff out.

Vacation...oh man, I'd love a vacation. I've been poking around when things are slow at work looking at Myrtle Beach stuff even though it's like 9 months away. Daydreaming even though it's 17 degrees outside!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *onetwoten*
> 
> if he doesn't want to say sorry, that's similar to saying that he doesn't think there's anything wrong with what he did


I wouldn't assume that this is necessarily the case. He may be embarrassed or not understand or even afraid, especially at only 3. That's still so young.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> Gabe I could tell was at the least embarrased - and seemed a bit contrite -, and I don't think entirely understanding of what was going on.


Exactly

Intervals are supposed to be the new big thing for losing weight and getting in shape. I was reading the other day that sprints are actually better than long, sustained cardio like running or walking. Resistance/strength training is important because it helps the body continue to burn calories even after you've stopped working out. I've read the body stops burning calories relatively quickly after you stop doing cardio.

I've been trying to do whatever I can whenever I can. Sometimes it's sprints in the backyard. Sometimes it's push up and squats. I've also been trying to do some yoga because I think it will help with my back. I used to do plank pose a lot when I was bodybuilding and thought it was so easy I didn't understand why people made a big deal out of it. Doing it now, though, is hard! My stomach is sore for 2-3 days after.









I've dropped 2 lbs. but I think it may just be from having







. Time will tell, I guess.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

I used to joke with some of my preschoolers that they were not sorry about what they did, they were only sorry they got caught! - which is often the case - I think, like anything, you have to take it in a case by case basis - and know your kid - Gabe in that moment I could tell really wanted to make up with his friend - so he did. When he doesn't want to say sorry to Norah, or do anything to make it up to her - I do it for him and talk to him about why he shouldn't hurt her. And depending on the severity of it, he does need to sit and calm down a bit.

All this talk about excersise makes me tired. I miss it - I felt great when I was doing it regularly. Need to get back in that habit.

I think we are coming down with something sinus-y. ugh.

OB appt today. NBD. I got asked the other day when I was having another ultrasound. I think it's strange that people assume you should be getting them all the time. I don't expect to have another unless/until I go overdue and they do BPPs.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *onetwoten*
> 
> I've heard that weight training can be very good once you've hit that plateau because it world different muscles.
> 
> ...


I just loathe weight training. Give me a treadmill and I'll run for an hour. I feel good. Give me weights and I'm just so BOREDDDD. So hopefully the dvd helps. It's not super new, just new to me. I got the No More Trouble Zones one, supposed to help with hips, thighs, muffin top, love handles, and arms.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> Word count...when I filled out Ava's chart last week, it asked if she had 15-20 words but when I met with her pedi, he said for 18 months it's actually more like 10 words. So that lady in your DDC Baby_Cakes needs to chill the eff out.
> 
> Vacation...oh man, I'd love a vacation. I've been poking around when things are slow at work looking at Myrtle Beach stuff even though it's like 9 months away. Daydreaming even though it's 17 degrees outside!


GTK! And yes she does!!

I was looking at MB stuff too! I so want to go away for a bit before then. TRYING but I think it's hopeless since we need to save to move.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> I've dropped 2 lbs. but I think it may just be from having
> 
> ...


I thought I would drop water weight from getting AF, but it didn't show on the scale.

829 and Nora's already throwing a fit. Sigh. Hopefully not a sign on how the rest of the day will go.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> I used to joke with some of my preschoolers that they were not sorry about what they did, they were only sorry they got caught!


This is often the case. I think it's a sad commentary on conventional, mainstream punishment/reward discipline tactics. The lesson that children learn from those types of things is that it's only wrong if you get caught and you should always get a reward for doing something nice or good. If you don't get a reward, there's no reason for doing it.

My dh hit on that last night at counseling and it's really eating at me today. The counselor asked him what draw him to me when we first met. He said he liked that I was smart and independent and that I was appreciative of the things he did for me. He brought up how he used to stay at my house and clean while I put Ryan to bed and how much I appreciated that. But now I don't appreciate anything he does, like setting my coffee up for me in the morning or doing the dishes. So, apparently, he doesn't see the point in doing anything unless I gush all over him for it.







Hm...when was the last time he was appreciative of me taking care of his kids all day or doing all the laundry or anything?

Carrie ~ You can do resistance/strength training without using weights. Certain yoga practices are good for that. Isometric exercises will work some. You could just do a simple routine of push-ups, squats and crunched 3 times a week like Annie had mentioned. That's enough to tone and improve strength without having to spend a lot of time doing it.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> This is often the case. I think it's a sad commentary on conventional, mainstream punishment/reward discipline tactics. The lesson that children learn from those types of things is that it's only wrong if you get caught and you should always get a reward for doing something nice or good. If you don't get a reward, there's no reason for doing it.
> 
> ...


That's just what he needs. He wants verbal appreciation. Maybe b/c of how he was raised, or just because that's how he sees your love. Give in to it. Just b/c you don't think it's necessary doesn't mean it isn't for him. If all it takes is a few extra thank yous a week, then do it. He wants his acts of service acknowledged. Chris is like that. I don't feel I should have to thank him for things he should be doing anyway. But the difference in his attitude when I do is worth me doing it!

Yes - going to! Since I've got no idea what/how, using the DVD is going to be key for getting ideas.

Hoping to really get a routine going and then maybe i'll be able to justify a gym membership.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> That's just what he needs. He wants verbal appreciation. Maybe b/c of how he was raised, or just because that's how he sees your love. Give in to it. Just b/c you don't think it's necessary doesn't mean it isn't for him. If all it takes is a few extra thank yous a week, then do it. He wants his acts of service acknowledged. Chris is like that. I don't feel I should have to thank him for things he should be doing anyway. But the difference in his attitude when I do is worth me doing it!


Yeah, except that he's full of it that I don't acknowledge the things he does. I thank him all the time for making my coffee for me. The only other thing he does is the dishes. Frankly, I'm not appreciative of that because I'd rather he get the boys ready for bed. I can't gush all over him for staying up until 11 pm getting the dishes in the dishwasher so he can run it when he then turns around and complains that boys are still up, especially when I've told him repeatedly that I'd rather he help me with them.

He whines about how he gets up at 4:30 am to finish the dishes for me and I'm not thankful. BS! He gets up at 4:30 am because he wants to beat the traffic to work. He doesn't _have_ to get up that early. He chooses to so don't put that on me like it's somehow my responsibility or he does it for me.

All of that stuff was BS. I don't believe it for a second. He was just pulling stuff out of his butt because he didn't like being put on the spot about his own behavior. He does that all the time, tries to turn things around on me so he doesn't have to take responsibility for himself. I'm so over his whiny, immature crap. I'm pissed. Can you tell?


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

I don't like weight training. I do love walking. I could walk all day, to library and back, store and back. I also love riding my bike.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Enh, sometimes I wish you had some good things to say about Sean - I know you need to vent, and I get that - we all need to vent about DH stuff. But if you've got nothing good to say, it makes me wonder if you think he's worth the effort? Are you only going to counseling to fix him? is there nothing you could do better? I'm with Carrie - showing appreciation may be a silly thing to you. But it's a small thing in the big picture that could help.

I like rewards as surprises - Gabe did so well waiting with me at the OB - normally I wouldn't take him, but somehow DH and I double booked the chiro and the OB, so he took Norah with him to the chiro, and I brought DS with me to the OB. He didn't fuss or run around - he was even nice to the doctor - which considering the only doctor he sees on any basis is the chiro, I thought was awesome - so I let him pick lunch and get chocolate at the store. No big thing, and not something I held over his head (which generally doesn't tend to work well). But a little treat for surprising me with good behavior.

Weight training in and of itself is boring. But worked into a routine? can be at least a little interesting. I liked P90X - and I saw good results with it - . Slim in 6 didn't do much for me. I hate resistance bands. prefere free weights. I've not tried any Jillian Michaels stuff. LMK how you like it.

I don't like gyms just for the equipment - I like classes - they keep it interesting and many incorporate weights + cardio or something. It's never the same each week and you get feedback and see new people. All good things.


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

I like rewards too. I don't see nothing wrong with them. Unless its a habit where the child automatically assumes gets a reward. That is the parents problem.


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

i meant surprise rewards. I hate typing on phone.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> He whines about how he gets up at 4:30 am to finish the dishes for me and I'm not thankful. BS! He gets up at 4:30 am because he wants to beat the traffic to work. He doesn't _have_ to get up that early. He chooses to so don't put that on me like it's somehow my responsibility or he does it for me.
> 
> All of that stuff was BS. I don't believe it for a second. He was just pulling stuff out of his butt because he didn't like being put on the spot about his own behavior. He does that all the time, tries to turn things around on me so he doesn't have to take responsibility for himself. I'm so over his whiny, immature crap. I'm pissed. Can you tell?


SPEAK UP! Talk about THIS at therapy! Turn to DH and be like, "dude you are totally making shit up! You know I thank you for XYZ and you KNOW you don't need to get up that early FOR ME so quit it!"

Get this all out in the open so you can WORK on it. Call him out on his BS. Be mad. Get to the nitty gritty stuff, throw off the gloves. It's now or never!!!

re:gyms - I know I LOVE the classes, but I need to make use of the ENTIRE place before I can justify the cost. I would join just for spin class but DH is like $40 a mo for a class 2X a week is a bit steep.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Surprise treats are always fun and a good thing. That's not the same as saying, "If you behave, I'll buy you an ice cream, but if you are bad, I'll cancel your playdate with your friend."
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> Enh, sometimes I wish you had some good things to say about Sean - I know you need to vent, and I get that - we all need to vent about DH stuff. But if you've got nothing good to say, it makes me wonder if you think he's worth the effort? Are you only going to counseling to fix him? is there nothing you could do better? I'm with Carrie - showing appreciation may be a silly thing to you. But it's a small thing in the big picture that could help.


I wish I had something nice to say about him, too. I don't know that I think any one person is worth so much effort but my family is worth the effort. I'm going to counseling to fix us.

And, yes, there are things I can do differently. We talked about that last night, too. We talked about how I could reword things so that what I say doesn't automatically put Sean on the defensive. That's a hard thing to do because I have a very direct way of speaking that isn't meant to be mean or attacking but he takes it that way. I have to consciously change my wording but I'm fine with doing that.

When he expresses an honest issue that he has that is something I can change, I am open to that. When he just starts pulling crap out of his butt to attack and hurt me because he's feeling defensive, not so much. Have you ever read any books on fair fighting? One big thing is to not bring up stuff from the past that was either supposedly resolved or never mentioned before. Don't run a tally in your head so that you have something to throw back at the other person just to hurt them. That sort of thing won't resolve anything and will usually escalate the situation. Stay focused on the issue at hand.

Carrie ~ I did call him on it. I always do. It was rather interesting because he said he felt pretty good after the session last night. He got to vent and didn't feel as angry and combative as when he went in. I didn't feel like we had accomplished much of anything.

You want to know something really sad? (Probably not but I'm going to share it anyway.) The counselor asked us each to tell something that the other person did that made us feel loved. Neither one of us could come up with anything.







That's when Sean brought up how I used to be appreciative of the things he did. Yeah, because he used to do things for me. Now he does things for himself, mostly. If it happens to benefit someone else, that's a bonus. If it causes anyone else a problem, that's too bad. When he mentioned that he sets the coffee up for me in the mornings, I immediately said, "Oh, yeah. That is one thing he does for me and I do appreciate it."

However, that's not necessarily something the he does only for me. He does it because I've made a mess trying to make my own coffee too many times.







Even with the single-serve coffee maker we got I make a mess half the time because I forget to put the cartridge holder back in the thing. In my early morning daze I just put the coffee cartridge in the thing and turn it on and water goes everywhere.

That sort of thing also doesn't make me feel loved. I'm not an Acts of Service LL person. Quality Time is my main LL, none of which I get from him. I think that's why we've been having so many issues around bedtime. He thinks he's doing a nice thing by putting the dishes in the dishwasher but I just want him to help get the boys ready for bed and maybe spend some time with them reading books or something for a few minutes before going to sleep.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

I love, love, love lifting weights. DH used to lift a lot when he was in the Marines and he showed me how to do things properly. I love it. I wish we still had a gym membership so I could lift. But doing squats, even without weights, helps tone things as well as crunches and pushups. If I can get back to where I was a few weeks ago sleep-wise, then I won't need to take a nap when Ava does.

MW, it sounds to me like your DH's primary love language is words of affirmation and his secondary is acts of service. My DH's primary love language is words of affirmation too and it absolutely confounds me all the time. I don't understand why he needs a thank-you for doing regular stuff and it always strikes me as odd when he tells me thank-you for doing things that I need to do anyway. But that's what means something to him.







So I just try to remember that. It's hard though. I hope you guys can find a good balance. I think if for no other reason than to model to the boys what a healthy, loving relationship looks like, you know?

AFM, I'm taking away the cow's milk from Ava. I don't know if it's causing the problem but she's started vomiting again, primarily at bedtime right after she's taken her bedtime bottle of breastmilk. I've been giving her cow's milk during the day if she asks for milk and saving the breastmilk for sleep times. She's been on cow's milk for almost two months now so it seems a bit strange to me that just within the past week, it would be causing so many problems. We've talked to her pedi and her cardiologist and made sure it's not something else. They are all confounded. So I'm going to get some almond milk and see if she will take that. DH bought some vanilla almond milk the other day and all the big kids were drinking it like it was the best thing ever. So maybe Ava will take that? I had to cancel her photo session this morning because she wasn't feeling well plus it snowed last night and I just was not in the mood for dragging her out in the snow. We did go out and play around lunchtime and she loved it. My mom brought over a booster seat, Elmo plate and Elmo silverware. She ate lunch at the table instead of sitting in her highchair. She looks like such a big girl now!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I love lifting weights, too. I hate, hate, hate cardio! I will avoid it at all costs.

That is strange about the vomiting. I hope cutting out the cow's milk fixes it.

Yes, my dh's LLs are Words of Affirmation and Acts of Service. I'm not sure in which order. Probably like you said because he complained mostly about me not appreciating what he did rather than me not doing things for him. It's hard for me to thank him for something that I don't think he's doing for me or someone else. It's all for him. It's not really a gift or an act of service if there are strings attached.


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

Quote:


> AFM, I'm taking away the cow's milk from Ava. I don't know if it's causing the problem but she's started vomiting again, primarily at bedtime right after she's taken her bedtime bottle of breastmilk. I've been giving her cow's milk during the day if she asks for milk and saving the breastmilk for sleep times. She's been on cow's milk for almost two months now so it seems a bit strange to me that just within the past week, it would be causing so many problems. We've talked to her pedi and her cardiologist and made sure it's not something else. They are all confounded. So I'm going to get some almond milk and see if she will take that. DH bought some vanilla almond milk the other day and all the big kids were drinking it like it was the best thing ever. So maybe Ava will take that? I had to cancel her photo session this morning because she wasn't feeling well plus it snowed last night and I just was not in the mood for dragging her out in the snow. We did go out and play around lunchtime and she loved it. My mom brought over a booster seat, Elmo plate and Elmo silverware. She ate lunch at the table instead of sitting in her highchair. She looks like such a big girl now!


My DS2 who is almost 13 months old had some cows milk yesterday with dinner and then again today, and his poops were green today. They were watery green. He only gets a little bit with dinner, the rest is all breast milk. I am wondering if the green poo is from the milk I gave him. My oldest son was lactose intolerant until he was almost 2. I am wondering if E is too. :/


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Well, I'm pretty sure it's not the cow's milk. She seems to be making herself vomit to delay going to bed. Lovely.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> Well, I'm pretty sure it's not the cow's milk. She seems to be making herself vomit to delay going to bed. Lovely.


Oh, hm. How is she doing that? If that's the case, could she stay up later?


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

She's always had a sensitive gag reflex and it appears she's made the mental connection that if she coughs just right, she can make herself throw up. So Friday night when I was putting her to bed, she drank just a couple of ounces and was still fidgeting around so I got up and started walking around the room with her. She did a couple of fake coughs and I asked her to stop doing that. Then she coughed a couple of more times and up came all the breastmilk.







I put her out in the living room while I cleaned up and she ran around the house for the next hour happy as a clam. The problem with putting her to bed later is that she really does need 12 hours of sleep at night but she won't sleep past 9:30 AM. So if she doesn't go to bed until 11 PM every night, she starts operating on a sleep deficit. I'm a big proponent of getting enough sleep so that you stay healthy. We're going to try taking away the bedtime bottle and see if we can get over this hump. She doesn't do it when she takes her bottle at nap or during the night.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Couldn't/wouldn't take a longer or 2nd nap to make up any sleep deficit? Maybe she doesn't need as much sleep anymore.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Oh Ava! Sigh. Very dramatic, girlfriend!







Well at least you know it isn't the cows milk. What is your plan for taking away the bedtime bottle? Rock to sleep?

Did I tell you guys about the screaming Finn was doing at night? I think I did. I'll recap. He was waking up just screaming bloody murder like he was being attacked at least once a night. A full on tantrum. It didn't seem like night terrors, but it was somewhere past just a nightmare. He wouldn't let me rock or nurse (I did try even tho I try not to nurse thru the night anymore, this was big and different).

I couldn't figure it out. It seemed unrelated to diet or teething. Finally after a serious one lasting almost 5 min (he stood up and stomped feet, screaming mad, crying, pushing me away, collapsing, etc at 3 am), it just hit me that maybe it's too much TV. Somewhere I had read that someone's child had nightmares from watching something scary -- and while Finn doesn't watch anything scary, he'd been watching The Lorax daily. At least once. Sometimes twice (and he stares at the TV while it's on. He watches the whole thing.) So since that clicked in my brain I've been limiting his screen time. No Lorax. One or two live person shows per day that he walks away from and will glance at but he isn't GLUED to the screen.

No screaming fits since. I hope it isn't just a coincidence.

Still waking up early but for the past few days he's going back to sleep at 5 am until at least 630.

Chris is in Ohio today and tmw, then NYC wed. Hopefully he's back thurs and fri but he might go to Boston.

No plans yet today other than hang out. It's COLD again!


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

MW, I would absolutely click my heels in delight if she would take a longer nap but I'm usually thanking my lucky stars to get 1.5 hrs out of her. She definitely still needs more sleep. When she doesn't get enough sleep, she wakes up unhappy, she's emotionally fragile throughout the day and clumsy.

Baby_Cakes, that's very interesting about the TV. I know there are some kids that don't "overdose" on TV if it's not limited or otherwise have negative effects from unlimited TV viewing but I have a house full of them. Too much screen time is absolutely apparent in their behavior. How is Nora handling the reduced TV time? Are you filling the space with music or something else?

My plan to get Ava to sleep right now without taking a bottle was to drive her for 15 mins and transfer her as soon as she fell asleep. Last night was my short night at work so DH took me in the afternoon and the plan was he and Ava would pick me up at 9 PM and she could fall asleep on the way home. She didn't so I wasn't quite sure how I was going to get her to bed. We came in the house, she played for about 20 mins and then she pointed to the bedroom. So I said ok and we went and laid down. She signedcmilk and I got a bottle for her but before I gave it to her I said "No fake coughing Ava. The milk needs to stay in your tummy." She said ok, drank her milk and I walked her for a few mins and she went to sleep. No clue how she and DH will manage it tonight but I told him what I told her so we'll see.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Oh wow I'm glad that worked. They are so much smarter and understand more than we realize. Hopefully it continues to work! Especially for DH.

Nora seems fine with the less TV, she hasn't really noticed. I do put on music. Pandora on the TV. Nothing to look at, but the music is nice and sometimes they dance.

Just looked out the window and it's snowing! exciting.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Interesting about Finn and the movie. Dylan doesn't really watch TV. He glances at it every once in a while if it's on but has never actually sat down and really watched anything.

Last night he woke up around 4 or 5 am and just wanted to nurse, nurse, nurse. I finally told him to stop nursing, lay down and go back to sleep. He actually listened. He wasn't completely happy about it and kept trying to nurse again every few minutes for a little bit. He even cried a little but I just couldn't take it anymore. I let him lay on me and cry and he finally went back to sleep.

One thing I've discovered is that Dylan needs to have his diaper changed in the middle of the night most nights. It's not always poo. I think the urine irritates him, too. It doesn't seem to matter what kind of cloth diaper I put on him. It's got me considering trying sposies at night to see if that makes a difference. Every time I go to the store I look at the diapers but I can't bring myself to buy them.







I need to ask Sean to pick some up. He doesn't have any moral dilemma about it.

We're going to a dual birthday party today at noon. It's at an indoor bouncy house place. I really don't like the place. I don't think it's supervised enough and kids always get hurt there. But our group will be the only people there so, hopefully, it will be easier to keep an eye on everyone.

Not much else going on. Ryan is still moving out, sort of. I think Sean got tired of waiting for Ryan to pick up the rest of his stuff. He said he was going to load up the truck and take the stuff over on his lunch break today.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Yeah, no finn will sit glued to the tv. He's always done that but only w/shows and not for a long time. With the movie, he was sitting watching the whole thing. I would try to distract him but was unable to. It's sad b/c he really really likes it. I'll have to see if maybe we can put it on once a week or something. I got him the book so maybe he will like that too.

Hopefully dylan night potty learns around the same time as day, lol, or you'll be getting up to change night diapers for a long time, lol!









I've noticed too as much as finn darts and climbs etc, he can't be bothered with books and pointing to shapes/colors/objects. At this age Nora was all about pointing to ducks and saying quack. Or we would read and she would be so into "moon!" or "ball" or even just while we were out doing the same thing. Finn could give a crap. He just wants to RUN.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> Yeah, no finn will sit glued to the tv. He's always done that but only w/shows and not for a long time. With the movie, he was sitting watching the whole thing. I would try to distract him but was unable to. It's sad b/c he really really likes it. I'll have to see if maybe we can put it on once a week or something. I got him the book so maybe he will like that too.


I was going to suggest the book. We have the movie on DVD but I have not watched it yet. I think the boys have. I'm not all that interested. I'm a bit burned out of all the kids movies that have hidden agendas. Can't they just be fun stories anymore? It feels too much like attempted brainwashing to me when things like that are geared toward such young children.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> Hopefully dylan night potty learns around the same time as day, lol, or you'll be getting up to change night diapers for a long time, lol!


Man, I hope not because Ethan and Kellen weren't completely potty trained until they were 3 or older!

I don't know what the deal is with Dylan messing his diapers in the middle of the night. He had stopped pooping at night for several months. Last night he did poop a little bit. Sean changed him around 5 am. I told Sean that from now on he needs to change him when he gets up at 4:30 so he won't keep me up tossing and turning the rest of the night. Sean keeps forgetting, though, so I had to get up out of bed and call him to come up and change Dylan. Kind of defeats the purpose of having Sean change him in the first place, which is so I don't have to get up since he's already up.









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> I've noticed too as much as finn darts and climbs etc, he can't be bothered with books and pointing to shapes/colors/objects. At this age Nora was all about pointing to ducks and saying quack. Or we would read and she would be so into "moon!" or "ball" or even just while we were out doing the same thing. Finn could give a crap. He just wants to RUN.


I think that might be a general difference between boys and girls. I meant to say the same thing about talking. Girls generally are more verbal sooner than boys. Boys are generally more physical than girls.

That doesn't mean that all girls are one way and all boys are another. Those are generalities based on statistics and there are always exceptions and degrees or levels.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Ava mostly can't be bothered with reading books. She wants to move, move, move. But she will sit and watch TV. She likes to have it on more than I like to have it on. So I try to compromise. She usually wins.









I think it's time for me to ramp up the potty efforts. Today, she was wandering around the house naked. I was in the kitchen washing bottles and pump parts. She came in to the kitchen carrying a prefold and cover and started screeching at me. I said "Ava, if you need to go poops, you should go sit on your green potty." She kept screeching at me and I could see she had her little butt cheeks clenched so I picked her up and tried to get her to the green potty. The poop came out right before I got her on the potty. So I kept her with me while I cleaned it up and then we went back to the green potty and I said "Ava, you don't need to wear a diaper to go poop. You can sit on your green potty and poop." She looked away. Little stinker. She knows. So I need to figure out a way to motivate her.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> I think that might be a general difference between boys and girls. I meant to say the same thing about talking. Girls generally are more verbal sooner than boys. Boys are generally more physical than girls.


You could def be right about that. I think that's pretty true.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> Ava mostly can't be bothered with reading books. She wants to move, move, move. But she will sit and watch TV. She likes to have it on more than I like to have it on. So I try to compromise. She usually wins.
> 
> ...


LOL! She's so smart. What about an incentive? A reward? A sticker or a candy treat? IME they really don't need them for long. Two weeks or maybe 3, and then they forget about the prize.

Kat - how is PL'ing going with Gabe?

I keep forgetting to tell you the sneak peeks of your pics turned out great! Can't wait to see the rest!

Beat. See you guys in the am with coffee in hand!


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> You could def be right about that. I think that's pretty true.
> 
> ...


I thought about doing M&Ms but if she saw them, she would drive me crazy asking for them all the time. I'm definitely ok with bribing...just need to figure out the right bribe!

akind1, the pictures were great! Is she going to do newborn shots for you as well?


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

I would do them only for poop since she has pee pretty much down. I wouldn't let her know you have them even! LOL! Just if she goes poop, you say, "Potty treat!" or something and hand her one. Yeah she'll ask for more. It'll be annoying. But it'll probably help her poop on the potty.

I can't believe how much it seems other 1 year olds are doing. I feel like mine is such a baby in his head still. A lot of that could be my perception and denial at the fact he's growing up. But I think more of it is that it just hasn't clicked in his head yet, like he hasn't hit that developmental leap that many 17-18 mo olds have.

I was looking back at Nora's pics from when she turned 2 and I was like omg. She was so much more ... idk. Not intelligent, but more communicative, more child like. I feel like Finn is still a bit babyish. But, that's 7 months away. So much is going to change from now to then. And I can't compare him to first babies or onlies. They seem so advanced compared to him.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

It's definitely a range. You can really see it like at Ava's mother goose story time. There's a little girl that's just a couple of weeks older than Ava and I would swear she's two. And then she was playing with a little boy that's 16 months and he seemed more infant than toddler.

My milk has dropped DRASTICALLY in the past week. No real reason that I can figure out but Ava isn't drinking very much either so maybe it's just a natural time? I feel like I could drop to 2 or 3 pumps per day and be totally fine. But it could be just where I am in my LP and I don't want to mess with my supply further if I drop pumps so fast.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Double post. Deleting.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Dylan comes to tell me when he has to poo if he doesn't have a diaper on. He won't do anything about it, though. I've tried several times to put him on the potty but he just squirms right off. It doesn't matter if it's his little potty or the big toilet. I don't like to put a diaper on him when he says he has to poo because I feel like that's training him to poo in a diaper only. I'd rather he just go on the floor. He pooped twice on the carpet yesterday. It was kind of funny because I think he was a little surprised. He told me he had to poo but then just went about playing. When he squatted the poop just came out. Then he stood up, pointed to it and said, "Poo." haha!

We tried a disposable diaper last night. I think Dylan slept much better. I woke up around 3 am and he was still sleeping. I couldn't get back to sleep so I got up and wrote my thoughts down to get them out of my head. He woke up while I was up. I went back to bed to nurse him and he only nursed for a little bit and then went right back to sleep. He's still sleeping now. But...he also had pooped in his diaper the night before last when he was really restless. He didn't poop last night.

IDK what to do. I so don't want to stop using cloth.







I was thinking about trying a different washing soap but I don't know what. I'm using Charlie's Soap, which is supposed to be the best for anyone with sensitive skin. Everything I've read said that people who couldn't use any other laundry soap could use Charlie's without a problem. Maybe I'll try Allen's. I think that's supposed to be about the same.

Carrie ~ What do you mean by Finn seeming more like a baby? He's walking and talking and playing and interacting with everyone and everything, right? What else would he be doing at this age?

I have a feeling counseling is going to get really uncomfortable the next few visits. I brought up how angry I get during the day at all the little things that I run into that Sean has done that are in my way. The counselor asked if my friends had the same complaints and reacted as strongly as I do. She asked that because she said they sound like very typical complaints that SAHMs have about their partners. I think she was trying to imply that maybe I'm way overreacting and we would try to get at why I am so angry about all of it. I could go on and on. There is so much stuff that I'm beginning to wonder how we will ever cover it all. I feel like we need to go more often because I usually leave thinking I won't be able to wait a week before having to talk to Sean about this stuff again.


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

£{*~€|}£~~££ !!!!!!!

I'm effing losing my shit here. Ten has been up since 530am, won't calm down, won't be distracted, or play or even watxh her movie. she just wants to ehine and tug at me. she's obviously exhausted but shrieks if I pick her up and don't nurse her. I've already nursed her six times and I'm drawing the line there. So she's in her crib screaming bloody murder because at least she's safe there. Holdin her was pissing her off more.

Holy eff give me strength to make it through today.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

JJ, first off, huge hugs. Soooooo been there! Bathtub or shower usually works on days like that to get us back to a good spot. And ibuprofen. Sounds like Ava when she's in pain. Hope you get a break soon!


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

MW, that's interesting that D slept better out of cloth. Have you stripped your dipes recently with like RLR or Calgon? Maybe they just need that?

As for counseling, etc I think it's a combo of things. I think your DH does some passive aggressive crap to push your buttons and you are overly sensitive to some stuff. Have you considered going back on a mild antidepressant? I only ask because this topic has come up a lot recently in one of my moms groups and what the ladies are describing as their symptoms pre-meds is not what I would have labeled as "depression" but the meds help. They talk about feeling on edge all the time, general restlessness, mild anxiety, a feeling that nothing is ever good or right. And the meds help. I think walking outside 30-40 mins daily would have the same, if not greater, effect but that can be hard to incorporate in our lives.


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

JJ. I second the bath tub, when Eddie is having a really bad night/day the bath helps calm him. (((((((Hugs)))))))))

Well, Ds1 is home from school. Sun. He puked, yesterday he started coughing plus fever, today he has a low grade fever and cough. I don't want to sent him to school.

Talking about school, I have been seriously thinking of homeschooling him through middle school and on.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

JJ ~







I've been there. I agree with trying a bath. That works a lot of times to help Dylan when he's out of sorts. The ibuprofen might help, too. She could be in pain. I think that's why Dylan was so fussy for a couple of days before he actually showed any cold symptoms. My guess is that his sinuses were hurting him because that's how I first feel when I get a cold. My sinuses burn and it hurts very badly and sometimes I get a headache. Ethan gets a headache, too.

Which reminds me that last night he complained of having a headache and that his stomach hurt and he's still sleeping now at 10:30 am. Seems that this is going to be another one of those winters where we are continuously sick. We haven't fully gotten rid of the coughs we had from before Christmas.

Annie ~ I have tried stripping my diapers but my machine is crap. I think a big part of the problem is that it doesn't use enough water. When I changed his diaper this morning his foreskin wasn't red or swollen at all, either. It's almost always a little red or swollen after wearing a diaper. I am going to buy a new washing machine as soon as we close on our refinance, which is ending up costing us more than originally presented.

Oh, well. I guess that's what happens. It's not a lot but it seems like a bit of a scam. They told us we wouldn't need anything at closing. Now they say we'll need around $890 because they lowered our total loan amount. In the long run, that would be good for us except that we aren't planning to keep this house forever. I think we are planning to sell it as soon as we can because Sean got orders to Quantico. He'll probably be there for about 3 years. The other option was to not skip the March payment and get about $127 back in closing. That didn't sound right, though. It seems that they would get more money out of us that way. So, we're going to borrow the money from my dad to cover the closing costs we'll be expected to pay up front. The whole mortgage business is such a scam.

I do think I am extrasensitive to the slights that Sean does toward me, especially when he denies it the way my mother does. He acts like he doesn't know what I'm talking about. That drives me crazy! The counselor mentioned a few times that when people get overly upset over little things it's usually a sign that they don't feel loved and supported overall in the big things. That is definitely how I feel, like Sean doesn't truly value or support me. Homeschooling came up and I could hear Sean rolling his eyes when he said, "She believes in _unschooling_, learning through life." The tone was just so nasty and condescending. I could have smacked him. I really don't get that because he tells everyone else how great unschooling is and he has seen Ethan learn to read without instruction and answer math questions that he's never been taught. Oh, and even though he admits that when he is home alone with all the kids he can't get anything done he still says he thinks all I do all day is knit and mess around on Facebook. Really?!

That's part of what kept me up last night, thinking about that. If Dylan hadn't woken up while I was up writing in my journal, I would have confronted Sean then because he had just gotten up for the day.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Oh, the meds. I have thought about it. Anxiety and depression go hand in hand. Being overly irritable is actually a symptom of depression that the meds are supposed to help with. But I don't want to go back on them right now because I gained so much weight on them. I was figuring it out. I was wearing my "skinny girl" jeans at Williamsburg in September. Between then and Christmas I went up two jeans sizes so that I had to buy a size larger than my "big girl" jeans. I gained at least 15 lbs. in two months so that I am now at least 30 lbs. overweight again. That was right after doubling my dose of Zoloft. The doctor insisted that the meds don't cause weight gain but that is the only thing that changed drastically in my life then. Before that I was steadily losing weight.

That's another thing that really hurts when it comes to how Sean reacts to me. He knows I've struggled with depression at least since I was 15. He doesn't seem to acknowledge or understand that. He judges me as being lazy or whatever rather than seeing that I'm struggling again. He has to deal with all of the people at work who have problems like that. He comes home complaining about how he had to spend the day dealing with another crazy like it was such a pain and waste of his time. I can't believe that he could be so insensitive. It really hurts me and makes me feel like I can't confide in him how I'm really feeling about anything because he'll just think I'm crazy and being ridiculous and need to just get over it. I think he's in some sort of denial about how and who I really am. He doesn't know me. He has a fantasy of what he thinks I am. I don't know how to explain it, really.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> As for counseling, etc I think it's a combo of things. I think your DH does some passive aggressive crap to push your buttons and you are overly sensitive to some stuff. Have you considered going back on a mild antidepressant? I only ask because this topic has come up a lot recently in one of my moms groups and what the ladies are describing as their symptoms pre-meds is not what I would have labeled as "depression" but the meds help. They talk about feeling on edge all the time, general restlessness, mild anxiety, a feeling that nothing is ever good or right. And the meds help. I think walking outside 30-40 mins daily would have the same, if not greater, effect but that can be hard to incorporate in our lives.












Quote:


> Originally Posted by *onetwoten*
> 
> £{*~€|}£~~££ !!!!!!!
> 
> ...


Oh no! My advice is to get out of the house! Do anything! Walk! Go anywhere! You'll survive. I have faith!!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> Carrie ~ What do you mean by Finn seeming more like a baby? He's walking and talking and playing and interacting with everyone and everything, right? What else would he be doing at this age?
> 
> I have a feeling counseling is going to get really uncomfortable the next few visits. I brought up how angry I get during the day at all the little things that I run into that Sean has done that are in my way. The counselor asked if my friends had the same complaints and reacted as strongly as I do. She asked that because she said they sound like very typical complaints that SAHMs have about their partners. I think she was trying to imply that maybe I'm way overreacting and we would try to get at why I am so angry about all of it. I could go on and on. There is so much stuff that I'm beginning to wonder how we will ever cover it all. I feel like we need to go more often because I usually leave thinking I won't be able to wait a week before having to talk to Sean about this stuff again.


Idk what I mean. I think I'm mostly eager for talking. He really doesn't say much other than intonations and gestures. He understands plenty and is a barrel of laughs, but somehow...idk. I honestly don't know what I expect! LOL! And I'm not at all worried or anything. It was just something I see. I think also I was used to nora being "ahead" of the curve b/c she had an early in the month bday and was always doing things first, and since Finn is a mid month birthday in my DDC other kids his "age" are doing things first and that's different.

I'm sorry about the hard emotions and hurt feelings. I agree going more often is a good idea.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> That's another thing that really hurts when it comes to how Sean reacts to me. He knows I've struggled with depression at least since I was 15. He doesn't seem to acknowledge or understand that. He judges me as being lazy or whatever rather than seeing that I'm struggling again. He has to deal with all of the people at work who have problems like that. He comes home complaining about how he had to spend the day dealing with another crazy like it was such a pain and waste of his time. I can't believe that he could be so insensitive. It really hurts me and makes me feel like I can't confide in him how I'm really feeling about anything because he'll just think I'm crazy and being ridiculous and need to just get over it. I think he's in some sort of denial about how and who I really am. He doesn't know me. He has a fantasy of what he thinks I am. I don't know how to explain it, really.


:-( that sounds really hard. I'm so sorry.

AFM - Had mall plans but I had to cancel them b/c Finn and I were up for the day at 5 and I know he'll go down early for his nap. I want to hit the treadmill and clear my mind. I need a few min alone. Chris gets back tonight late (like midnight I think) and leaves early tmw for NYC. He should be home tmw late, like 10 or 11. Boston is still up in the air for thurs/fri. About to crackkkk.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> Annie ~ I have tried stripping my diapers but my machine is crap. I think a big part of the problem is that it doesn't use enough water. When I changed his diaper this morning his foreskin wasn't red or swollen at all, either. It's almost always a little red or swollen after wearing a diaper. I am going to buy a new washing machine as soon as we close on our refinance, which is ending up costing us more than originally presented.


Have you tried putting a soaking wet towel in with the diapers to trick the machine in to filling with more water?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> Oh, the meds. I have thought about it. Anxiety and depression go hand in hand. Being overly irritable is actually a symptom of depression that the meds are supposed to help with. But I don't want to go back on them right now because I gained so much weight on them. I was figuring it out. I was wearing my "skinny girl" jeans at Williamsburg in September. Between then and Christmas I went up two jeans sizes so that I had to buy a size larger than my "big girl" jeans. I gained at least 15 lbs. in two months so that I am now at least 30 lbs. overweight again. That was right after doubling my dose of Zoloft. The doctor insisted that the meds don't cause weight gain but that is the only thing that changed drastically in my life then. Before that I was steadily losing weight.


Maybe something other than zoloft? I know that different meds have different side effects. I think some of the moms in my group are taking Celexa?


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Ava fell at my office today and bonked her nose really hard! It was bleeding and now it's swollen and she's getting black eyes.







I had DH take her to the dr when he picked her up but they didn't seem too concerned about it. I know they can't do much if it is broken but eh, I guess I expected more of a reaction? We were going to do valentine/heart pictures but guess I need to postpone those!

JJ, how are you doing?


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Aw, poor Ava. I hope she heals fast.

I have not tried the wet towel specifically but whenever the machine has had wet things in it when it starts, it first spins and drains and then starts the cycle.







Also, I was thinking about the Calgon. We have very soft water. It drives me crazy because I never feel like I've rinsed all the soap off my hands after washing them. I think Calgon would make that worse, right, since it's a treatment for hard water? It's impossible to tell if all the soap has been rinsed off of the diapers in the machine I have. I always run extra rinse cycles every time I wash plus I use Charlie's soap, which is not supposed to cause any build up at all. My only other option, I think, is to try to strip them in my tub or boil them and I just don't have the time for that.

I've tried several different antidepressants over the years and the only one that has ever helped me that I could stand is Zoloft. From what I read, they all can cause weight gain and no one is sure why. Some say it could just be increased appetite caused by an improved mood but I don't think that would explain the rapid weight gain I experienced. It sucks to feel this way.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I keep forgetting to tell you all that I went straight from a few days of sticky CF to tons of ewcf. I'm only on cd13. WTH?!


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Mw do you have a good blender or a juicer? I've had such amazing results just from drinking whole carrot juice daily. My moods are excellent and my PMS nonexistent. It's worth looking into or trying. I do a cup of carrots and some frozen strawberries, and water. I have a high speed blender so that is able to juice and keep the fiber. Something about carrot juice is said to balance our hormones.

I think I'm coming down with an upper respiratory something. Suddenly this evening it hit me. A dry annoying cough and my ear is tickling. Sigh. I freaking HATE being sick.

Lauri - O NO! I'm so sorry she got hurt. Oh this age is a tough one for black and blues. :-(

JJ I hope your day improved!

Expecting Chris to walk in soon! Going to tidy up and find a snack and watch some TV before he does. See you in the am w/coffee, ladies!


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

MW, yeah if your water is already soft, you definitely don't want to use Calgon or RLR. I think getting a new washer is the best option. I love my toploader even though it's old. Maybe since you don't like the side effect from the meds, you could give the daily walking a try? I've seen studies where they had three groups, one on meds, one on meds and daily walking and one on just daily walking. The people in the third group felt consistently better and saw a reduction in their anxiety/depression. So maybe give that a shot?

Baby_Cakes, I had a great experience taking the elderberry syrup last week when I started to come down with something. I took the double dose like the package recommends and I never really got sick. I felt crummy for two days, like at the beginning of a cold but it just went away and never got worse. I swear by it now.

I'm having serious baby cravings these days. Like it just keeps ramping up and isn't going away. Sigh.


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

Need to come back, because there was stuff today I wanted to respond to, but yes the day got better! Thanks mamas. She shrieked in her crib for almost ten minutes (Seriously?!!! Where does she get this from?) and then finally quieted a bit, so as soon as she did, I went in and grabbed her, and we snuggled and nursed again, and she fell asleep for a nap. I just -cannot- nurse her when she's trying to shriek in my ear. It makes me skin crawl, and i refuse to nurse angry. Anywho, she slept for like 45 minutes and then woke up, tried to crawl off the edge of the bed, so I put her down, and she started shrieking again!! Seriously.

She pretty much cried/fussed off and on from then (about 10am) until 2pm when I put her down for another nap. I know it's teething and she's feeling off, but it's just ridiculous. She doesn't want to do anything. Won't eat anything. Won't let me snuggle her or play with her, or read to her. She just wants to hit me and tug on me, and cry. But then when I reach down to pick her up, she flips out at me. So trying! And the bath was a fanastic idea, but I needed to clean it before we could get into it (it was really that bad lol), so I cleaned it, but then it was time for her nap, so no dice. And I wanted to go out, but I felt so sleep deprived and sick (most likely from not sleeping/eating), that I knew getting dressed and driving somewhere at that moment was not a smart idea.

Anyways, the point was, I got her down for her second nap, she slept for an hour, and then woke up wide awake, and actually went to go "play", which consisted of me lying in bed feeling like death, and her bringing me random "toys" (ie non-toy random objects) to play with. Then Rob got home, and I handed her to him, and he made supper with her while I had an hour long bubble bath and did some reading. Bath and alone time = sane mama again. Came out of the tub, snuggled Tenley, and then put her into the tub for 20 minutes while dinner finished. Then She proceeded to throw all her dinner on the floor again, which sucks because we specifically made pasta because hse loves it and usually eats a ton, and we knew she was hungry. But alas, dinner on floor. Then after dinner I bundled her up and we went and did a leisurely grocery shopping trip to get out for a bit and also give Rob some alone time at home, since he gave me alone bath time. And then we came home, she ate some yogurt, and nursed to sleep. Hopefully she'll sleep well tonight. She needs it so much!

She's on such a sleep deficit right now. She goes to bed around 745-8pm, and then usually wakes up every 2.5-3 hours until about 5am. And then from 5am until 730ish, she nurses every 20-30 minutes until I finally give up and get out of bed. During the day she has two naps for usually a total of about 2 hours. But the last couple nights, she's been up and whining to leave the bed by like 630am. Last night she didn't sleep until after 9pm, and then was up from 530 onwards. Got out of bed just after 6, because even with nursing, she was -not- going back to bed. It's crazy. I'm adding it up and going ok... so you've had like 10 hours of sleep? And that's not taking out the time during the night she spends awake. It's crazy. IIRC, around this age they need around 14 hours, don't they? Too lazy to go get the book and check. Anyways, it's obvious she's in a sleep deficit, just like you were tlaking about with Ava, Lauri. It's just easier said than doen to fix it!!

On the good side though- Rob put her to sleep last night since I was at work. He fought from 8-9 to get her down, and then from 9-11 she was sleeping very lightly and/or up every 20 minutes or so. She finally settled at about 11, and I got home at 1130. I was pretty tired, and so was DH, so we're not 100% sure, but I don't think she woke up until that 530am wakeup when she woke for good. So she both technically, and actually, slept through the night. It has NEVER happened, that I've gotten home, and she's continued to sleep without nursing within 20 minutes of me being home. I think when I get into bed, she can smell me, and demands to nurse. But yeah, didn't wake up at all, so she slept for 6.5 hours. That also means she didn't nurse from 230pm until 530am. That has me flabbergasted. And she's started refusing both almond and breastmilk in either sippy cup or bottle. So I'm feeling very odd and mixed feelings about this. She still definitely nurses while I'm home, so it's not like she's trying to wean, but the idea of going 15 hours without nursing is just insane to me. And even more unsettling is that even at 530am, after not nursed or pumped for that long, I wasn't even uncomfortably full. :/

Blah anyways, I thought I was only going to write a paragraph, but my brain is a mile a minute and I'm totally rambling. Coming back tomorrow night!


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

JJ, it's sounds like she is teething pretty bad. Are you opposed to giving her ibuprofen? If not, I would give her a full dose at bedtime and then as needed throughout the day but make sure you don't give it too close to interfere with the dose at bedtime. So for instance, if Ava needs it, I give it to her at lunchtime then DH can give it to her at bedtime. Our lives DRASTICALLY changed when I figured out all of Ava's sleep issues and behavior issues were from her 1st molars coming in. She wasn't mouthing stuff or drooling so I didn't suspect teething. But she was in a lot of pain.


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

She goes totally loopy on advil, but tolerates tylenol ok, so we give that as needed, along with teething tablets, sometimes camillia, and frozen teethers. And usually her amber necklace, but come to think of it, it's been off all day, because she got yogurt on it yesterday and it needed to be washed. I should make sure that goes back on tomorrow morning. She's one of those who when she's teething, her hands don't EVER leave her mouth, so thankfully she's pretty obvious about it. It just sucks that there's nothing really to do to help it. Even the tylenol doesn't seem to make much of a difference. 

She's still sleeping, and it's been about 2.5 hours I think! Off to actually go to bed now. Got caught up on fb again. Big surprise!


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

Oh, and I'm working all day tomorrow, she'll be with the babysitter, but I set up playdates for both Thurs and Friday, so we'll have something distracting and entertaining out of the house for us to do. We both do better in public. And Saturday we're probably going to visit my mom's too. And sunday Rob will be home. We shall make it through the week! lol


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Acetaminophen never does any of us much good, either. I don't even bother with it anymore. We use only ibuprofen. Maybe it's the dye or flavoring in the one you have that makes her loopy? Can you find a different one? I know that's a pain because my kids only like the bubble gum flavored and I haven't been able to find that for a long time. I can only find fruit flavored ones and the kids hate them.









Carrie ~ Why not eat a couple of carrots? I don't like to drink my food. I've never liked juices or smoothies much. We do have a blender and a food processor but I never use them. I don't like big, heavy kitchen appliances. Sean loves them, though.

I did feel a lot better in general when I was exercising regularly. I have a hard time getting myself motivated these days. There are so many other things that I'd rather do. Since I don't really get any time for myself I choose the things I really want to do rather than the things I feel like I should do. KWIM? I thought my friend and neighbor was going to start walking her dog regularly and that we could go along. My kids are friends with her kids so my kids wanted to go. But, she's either stopped doing that daily or she goes in the afternoon while Dylan is napping.

I did get myself a new yoga mat (the cats peed on my old one) and an exercise ball so I could do some things at home. I've also been thinking about using my treadmill again. I had to kind of pack it up because the boys' friends mess with it every time they come over. It drives me crazy because, not only could they get hurt, but it's also expensive and they jump and climb and swing on it. I have asked/told them I don't know how many times but I guess it's too much of a temptation.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I have an appointment with the chiropractor today and I don't feel like going. I'm tired of having to get dressed and rush out of the house every day. I need some time to just chill at home and do nothing. Oh, well, maybe Friday.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Oh man, if Ava couldn't have ibuprofen, I would have cracked a long time ago. It's definitely better living through pharmaceuticals in this house when Ava is teething. I agree with MW, the acetaminophen isn't going to touch teething pain. I'd probably just skip it. It could be the dye. Maybe get dye free and try again? I really can't stress enough how much our lives changed when I realized she was in pain and I started actively managing it.

MW, I know it's tough to find the motivation. I should be doing that every day and I'm not. Ava just left with my mom and there's a bazillion things I should do and I just want to sit and be still for a few mins.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

I'm here - just been busy with stuff.

I know for myself, tylenol does nada (but If taken in excedrin does -same active ingredient, different fillers I imagine) ibuprofen is my drug of choice for pain. I wouldn't know about the kids, bc neither have needed meds. But I'd be more inclined to give ibuprofen than tylenol, due to tylenol's toxicity on the liver.

I need some motivation - I'm just really tired, and can feel myself spinning more emotional and irritable, and as a result I'm kind of withdrawing a bit. I still have a month to go before this baby is born, so I hope some of that is related to this cold I have, and once I feel better, my emotional equilibrium will come back. I know emotional meltdowns tend to precede baby by a couple weeks (was true for Norah, IIRC)

I can't remember everything . . . crap.

JJ: hope Tenley is sleeping ok for you - sounds like you've had some ups and downs.

OH - Carrie - Norah seems to me so much a non-baby lately - just a little girl - she's understanding so much and communicating so well, climbing and moving like toddler and not like a baby. some of her age mates are barely walking. I feel like her baby hood was so short - she is just so eager to grow and do. Still hasn't hit 20 lbs yet though. I only know Finn through pictures, but he LOOKS like a toddler to me - not a baby. Him and Dylan both are so big!

I need to figure out how to get more sleep. Not enough hours in the day.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

I don't eat the carrots b/c I don't like carrots. If I hide them in juice and throw in protein powder, it's a meal and I get the benefits and don't need to think about it. And it's way more tasty.

JJ - hugs! This too shall pass! and I'm happy to see you're staying busy.

Lauri - jump on that baby bug, woman!







No, I know you want to wait. But still. Tick tock!

No baby fever here. Feeling excellent these past few days. I've lost about 3 lb but I LOOK much better. I'm back in my skinny jeans! size 4 baby!

I just don't know how my tummy is going to turn out once I lose the last of this. I think the skin is still too stretched out and doughy to ever be flat. I think I'm ok with that, more than I thought I'd be. It is what it is. I had two beautiful babies and I'm not seeking perfection, I just want to be comfortable with myself. I'm getting there! I really am feeling confident and strong and beautiful.

I am so sore from squats yesterday. ZOMG. I can barely walk!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I think Excedrin has caffeine in it, which is why they say it works faster. It's not a filler. It's used as an adjuvant to make the other drug, acetaminophen, more effective.I can see how the caffeine may also make the pain killer work better.

Oh, ha ha, Carrie. I like carrots so I'd much rather just eat them, especially raw, than juice them. I eat raw carrots almost every day. They are one of my easy, go to snacks.

The slower you lose weight the better your skin is supposed to bounce back. If you lose weight too fast, your skin won't shrink accordingly and you're more likely to have wrinkly, saggy skin.

We went to the chiropractor today and then to Target. Dylan fell asleep in the car on the way for about 5 minutes and now he's up. I was really hoping he'd fall asleep again on the way home but no dice. *sigh*


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

I love carrots cooked in wine.

When we make pork roast in the crockpot and we add carrots, I add some wine and they come out so yummy.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

the weight loss is going pretty freaking slow if you ask me! LOL! I just notice the skin is more wrinkly than any other skin I have. I think it'll be alright. Still going to work at it but I just am working on accepting things as they are, too.

Sigh. You guys are right. I'm just in denial. He's such a freaking toddler I just don't want to admit it.









BBL.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> Sigh. You guys are right. I'm just in denial. He's such a freaking toddler I just don't want to admit it.










It's kind of sad. I've been thinking about the fact that I'm getting close to the age when I usually start thinking about trying to have another baby but not this time. Dylan is my last. I'm fine with it. I don't want any more babies. I just wish he wasn't growing up so fast.

You're probably seeing wrinkly skin that isn't even there.







Drinking lots of water is supposed to help the skin stay firm and supple. My skin is becoming actually wrinkly, like old lady wrinkly. My thighs are beginning to look like my mom's.

I like cooked carrots, too. I don't like them sweetened up, though. Sean likes to add sweetener to them when he cooks them but I prefer them plain.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Excedrin is actually acetaminophen and aspirin combined with caffeine so that's probably why it works when regular acetaminophen doesn't. I don't like to give Ava acetaminophen either because of the liver issues. I actually don't keep it in the house. Now ibuprofen, oh yeah, that's a different story!

Baby_Cakes, I would so be preggo right now if it was totally up to me. DH is the one saying no. I'm just hoping for an "oops" at this point. I understand his reasoning. He does the evening/bedtime parenting and Ava isn't the easiest to deal with getting to sleep. I'm sure the thought of having two of them to get to bed sends him in to a panic. But my thought is that she's getting better all the time WRT sleeping so who knows how she would be in 9ish months, you know? Or actually like 10-11 months because I would be home for the first part on maternity leave. Meh...maybe he'll come around. He said no to babies before Ava too.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I really can't say I want another, either. I honestly do not. But, yes, there is something bittersweet about Finn getting older! I wish it wasn't going as fast, too.

I realized today too that when he's hungry and brings me something to open, he says, "Um?" and that's b/c when he takes a bite, we all say, "Yum," to him. haha! It's cute!

He can walk out the front door and down the porch steps alone. Blows my mind. He still bolts if I don't get the door shut and locked before I get down there, lol, but he can manage the steps and everything.

he can bring a step stool to where he wants to go and use it.

he's just figuring out how to put a shape piece into the right shaped hole.

I can tell him to put something somewhere and he makes a valiant effort, although sometimes he gets distracted.

He can hold the cat for about 10 seconds.

Today he still only ate bananas, a builder bar, bread, and booty. Oh, and a bunch of cherry tomatoes. No matter what I offer, he sneers at it and signs for milk. Teeth you think? He's so happy otherwise, just not interested in ANY food. Sigh. Idk. I hope this phase passes quickly. My MIL stopped by today while he was napping, and I mentioned this to her (it's been maybe 4 or 5 days of this B Food Diet) and she was like, "Oh." and then goes, "How long are you going to nurse him?" I just shrugged and said, "Til he's done. Or till I'm done. Whenever." "When did Nora wean?" "She was a little past 2. Yeah, like 25 or so months." "Oh. I didn't know she nursed that long."

then I said, "It's good for him, especially since he's being so picky with food, and it's good for me and my health too. So as long as we both want to, we'll continue."

Ha. I had to laugh on the inside.

And LOL no my tummy def looks like pizza dough! Deflated squashy dough. Finn likes to poke at it and nora calls it my pizza belly.









Blech. No carrots for me, thanks. Maybe dipped in hummus but that's about it!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> Excedrin is actually acetaminophen and aspirin combined with caffeine so that's probably why it works when regular acetaminophen doesn't. I don't like to give Ava acetaminophen either because of the liver issues. I actually don't keep it in the house. Now ibuprofen, oh yeah, that's a different story!
> 
> Baby_Cakes, I would so be preggo right now if it was totally up to me. DH is the one saying no. I'm just hoping for an "oops" at this point. I understand his reasoning. He does the evening/bedtime parenting and Ava isn't the easiest to deal with getting to sleep. I'm sure the thought of having two of them to get to bed sends him in to a panic. But my thought is that she's getting better all the time WRT sleeping so who knows how she would be in 9ish months, you know? Or actually like 10-11 months because I would be home for the first part on maternity leave. Meh...maybe he'll come around. He said no to babies before Ava too.


Well boo. It'll be tough at first of course but yes, she'll be older. I worried so much about Nora's bedtime when I was pg with Finn, remember that? And it all worked out. I think it's a non issue. Go get pregnant.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

It depends on the type of Excedrin. Excedrin Tension Headache is acetemetophin+caffeine, Migraine is a slightly different blend, plain excedrin, etc. With Gabe I had horrible headaches during pregnancy and tylenol wouldn't cut it, but I could take the Tension headache version bc it doesn't contain aspirin or ibuprofen.

Carrie - given time, your stomach may firm up again. It's not going to happen overnight - though it'd be nice! hooray for size 4! jeans. I'll be thrilled to be back in a size 14 LOL, which I think is very possible towards the end of the year. No rush.

More babies! who's actually considering it at some point? JJ? Lauri? AnnieA?

I am glad that this is the last baby, and that I know NOW that's it's my last one. No regrets - I've gotten stunning maternity pictures, and been able to just be very relaxed about it, I think had we decided later that it was the last baby, I might have regrets, looking back, wishing I had done things differently.

Carrots - I don't like them. I will eat them cooked. But I don't like to. I'm not a big juicer either. bleh.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Yeah I guess we'll see. It's not like I need it to be perfect, like I said. And I think a 14 is a great goal, Kat. You can totally do it!

Are there more mat pics we can see? do you have a link?

We had a huge storm tear thru last night and it was so windy and loud it woke finn up at 3. I tried for over an hour to get him back to sleep but no dice, it was just too loud. I called chris (thank goodness he's back!) and had him try. I slept from about 430 til 7. Coffee is a must today! I have laryngitis and Nora has a cold and pinkeye. No school for her tmw. Finn so far is unscathed but it's only a matter of time!


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

I'd just like to go on record as saying that toddlers and jack russells do not mix. The nanny family that I'm with until Friday has two. And Ava hates them. I don't blame her but it's really challenging to be in this house and not keep them locked up. There are some areas to go that they aren't allowed in but of course Ava doesn't want to stay there. :/ I don't want to spend the night away from her but I don't know if I can take too many more days of this.

Ava went in a shoe store for the first time today and she kept walking around saying "Oh wow! Oh wow!" It was very cute!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Can't you just put the dogs somewhere else, then? I love animals but people go before animals in my book. If an animal is bothering a child (or an adult), the animal has to somewhere else. Toddlers and ShiChis don't mix, either. Really, toddlers and any pet don't really mix well. Dylan tries to pet the cat but he gets rough and then the cat scratches him. When we watch Starfire, she jumps all over him and tries to bit his penis. I have to keep a diaper on him and the puppy away at all times. When we go to my friend's house who has a really big lab/golden retriever mix that is about a year old, he gets all in Dylan's face. He's very friendly and just wants to lick him but he's so big and goofy that he knocks Dylan down. I think his size also scares Dylan because he does not like it one bit. My friend puts the dog either outside or in the kennel most of the time when we are there.

I took a bit of a break from my computer yesterday. Well, actually, I kind of took a break from life. I didn't feel well so I stayed in bed with Dylan until after 1 pm. Yes, can you believe it?! He just nursed on and off, ran out of the room to check on his brothers periodically and eventually climbed back in bed with me and took a short nap from about 12-12:40. I got up and moved myself to the couch and just laid there. Dylan did the same. He was perfectly happy as long as he could nurse whenever he wanted. He fussed a lot less than when I'm up trying to do things.









Ethan helped get food for everyone else and even changed Dylan's diapers. He didn't fight or fuss or squirm at all when Ethan changed his diapers. Ethan would ask Dylan to come lay down and he would trot on over and assume the position. WTH? Little stinker!









Dylan gets big eyes and says, "Whoa!" whenever he sees something that excites him. I like Ava more and more with her bag and now shoe obsession. I love shoes! I just wish I could wear the ones I like.

I just made a lunch date with dh so I guess I should try to get dressed.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> Ava went in a shoe store for the first time today and she kept walking around saying "Oh wow! Oh wow!" It was very cute!


That's so cute!! Love her!









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> I took a bit of a break from my computer yesterday. Well, actually, I kind of took a break from life. I didn't feel well so I stayed in bed with Dylan until after 1 pm. Yes, can you believe it?! He just nursed on and off, ran out of the room to check on his brothers periodically and eventually climbed back in bed with me and took a short nap from about 12-12:40. I got up and moved myself to the couch and just laid there. Dylan did the same. He was perfectly happy as long as he could nurse whenever he wanted. He fussed a lot less than when I'm up trying to do things.
> 
> ...


That sounds like heaven!!!! Oh my gosh I wish I had older kiddos to help.

Finn will drop his jaw, get wide eyed, and draw in his breath when he sees something exciting. I opened up his bin of cars and he actually put his hands to his face (like home alone style) the other day and I cracked up!! He's too funny!

He's big on "uh-oh!" too. It's adorable!

have fun at lunch!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> That sounds like heaven!!!! Oh my gosh I wish I had older kiddos to help.


It would have been if it hadn't been at least partially because I wasn't feeling well. I ate only a piece of plain toast all day until dh came home and made dinner. When he asked what we did during the day, I said, "Absolutely nothing." hehe

I forgot to mention that Dylan and I took another nap on the couch for a couple of hours from about 5 to 7pm. I was afraid he would be up late but he wasn't. He fell asleep before 11. He was funny. He was nursing, nursing, nursing and flopping around. I said, "Dylan it's time to lay down and go to sleep." He flopped himself upside down in the bed next to my legs so his feet were toward my head and fell asleep like that. I don't think he was upset. He wasn't fussing or anything.









He slept for at least 5 hours, nursed and went right back to sleep. He woke up twice more before we got up but he nursed and quickly went back to sleep rather than squirming and fussing for an hour or more like he had been doing. I guess the disposable diapers were the trick. Now I just need to figure out what to do about my cloth diapers.

I washed them with Dawn and rinsed them over and over for two days. I still couldn't tell if all the soap was out. They came out a lot brighter looking, though.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> It would have been if it hadn't been at least partially because I wasn't feeling well. I ate only a piece of plain toast all day until dh came home and made dinner. When he asked what we did during the day, I said, "Absolutely nothing." hehe


tha'ts just it tho! I'm so sick and I would love to just hole up on the couch in the living room with finn drive by nursing. If only he had someone to look after him like Ethan can do with Dylan. It's so hard to be on while I'm so sick. Sigh.

Like right now Nora is drawing all over windows with window crayons which is usually a supervised activity b/c she can't be trusted not to write all over the place, and finn is staring at the tv watching gabba gabba. I'm a hot mess! I get dizzy just walking around.









I'm probably going to try to get him down for nap soon. I wish I could sleep with him.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Oh man, I need a day on the couch! Does Dylan and Finn get super pissed when you lay down? Ava FREAKS out and shrieks and pulls at me until I sit up. IDK what her deal is but it's super frustrating.

Anyways, with the dogs, yes there is somewhere to put them but this is technically work for me and the parents are being kind to let me bring Ava. Part of what I'm here getting paid for is so the dogs don't stay locked up in their area so I can't in good faith keep them locked in their room the whole time Ava is up and wandering around. Both she and the dogs did better with each other today but it's still hard to have her here in a house that isn't used to having toddlers around in about 10 years. I had DH come pick her up this afternoon and take her home so I could get a break and so she could spend time with her brothers and sisters. DSD 15 is in a Shakespeare performance at her school tonight so I'm taking the boys I'm watching to see that and then we'll pick Ava up on the way home and bring her with me to sleep.

I also learned this weekend that toddlers in SUVs are HARD. I'm driving the mom's land cruiser for the weekend so I installed Ava's seat in the middle of the second row so the boys could sit on either side. Getting her in and out of that big truck is a huge PITA. Between putting her in and out of the truck, carrying her everywhere and sleeping like crap, my back is totally locked up. Add in cramps and general back ache from AF starting and I'm pretty much a mess. Oh well. The parents will be home tomorrow and Ava and I will go home.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Here's the new thread for February: http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1373799/february-2013-rockstar-mamas-thread

Carrie ~ If you are that sick, just let things go. It's ok to let the kids watch TV when you are sick. Can your in-laws help you at all?

Dylan doesn't get mad when I lay down but he gets mad when I do anything other than pay attention to him. Even now he's pushing my laptop away and trying to climb on me even though he just nursed like 5 times and dh is right here trying to get him to do something else. I feel like I'm shooing him away but I need a minute to do something other than just sit so he can be on me. Last night after he wouldn't lay down and go to sleep I told him to go lay down with Daddy and moved him over to dh. He actually fell asleep without a fuss. Although, he wasn't cuddled up to dh. He was laying upside down at the bottom of the bed again.

I think I may have been sick because I was Oing. Strange but that's the only thing I can figure. I'm on day 3 of CF dry up after 4 days of ewcf. My lower abnomen, especially on the right side, was very tender on cd15 and I had been having what I would call O pains since cd13, I think. That would put O on cd15, which would be amazing for me!

Anyway, let's move on over to the new thread.


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