# I'm done.- I lost it last night. Update. #2



## Autumn C. (Jul 30, 2008)

I can't.

I don't have any real desire to CIO I just want to know how I can get my LO to sleep better. I'm too sleep deprived to know the exact count of her wakings but its somewher between 8-10, I think. And at least once per night I wake up and stay awake for at least an hour before going back to sleep. I have to unlatch her in order for me to sleep. Sometimes she pops off herself. Sometimes she'll accept it the first time I delatch her, sometimes it takes multiple times.

A brief history:

I intented to room share but not bed share. I am a lone ranger. I cant sleep with people touching me. She slept in a crib next to our bed. She now starts off in the crib and ends up in our bed. She's always been a difficult sleeper causing me to get blackout curtains, have white noise, bedtime routines (bath/massage/song). I have done and ED and explored reflux as a cause. She's been to a chirpractor. I have spent HOURS walking, bouncing, rocking, standing, whatever, I have and have done NCSS.

I need to get her wakings down to 2or 3.

"If you resnt it change it" is sound advice but I am out of ideas.

-----

There is soMething wrong when MDC, arguably one of the the most knowledgeable aND PAssIONATE mama communities in existence doesn't have any advice. Sorry baby helping me type.

Please?


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## calendula (Apr 15, 2003)

bump and subbing


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## Thalia (Apr 9, 2003)

I'm so sorry, I wish I had some advice for you. The things that helped us you have already tried, it sounds like.

Is she napping during the day at all? Naps have been a big factor in DD's sleep habits. We just keep tweaking them: changing the time, going from one to two.

The other thing that helped us when she was smaller was music. She'd cry in arms until we put "African Playground" from Putumayo on and then would relax and allow us to bounce her to sleep. She grew out of that, but at the time it was a huge help.


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## Megamus (Oct 14, 2008)

Yikes! Poor you!!








I really don't know what else to suggest...but I hope other mamas will get on here and help you out soon!


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

that's a LOT of wakings. No wonder you're exhausted!

Have you investigated food sensitivities?

-Angela


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## Thalia (Apr 9, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 









that's a LOT of wakings. No wonder you're exhausted!

Have you investigated food sensitivities?

-Angela

OP said she did an elimination diet, so I'm guessing this is something she looked at.


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## Theoretica (Feb 2, 2008)

Wowzer you sound totally burned out! One thought that comes to mind is swaddling? And we've gotten to a routine where about an hour before bed we play w/bbDD...HARD....and we're noticing she sleeps a LOT better.

I'm sure someone will have some answers for you mama...can you get a break for an hour or so and get a nap in?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thalia* 
OP said she did an elimination diet, so I'm guessing this is something she looked at.

oops sorry! Distracted this morning...

-Angela


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## Mommy2Haley (Oct 25, 2007)

I wish I could help but you've already done everything I was going to suggest. We had issues and went with "time" until I discovered her dairy allergy. DD's wakings at that age were upwards of 12+.


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## fairejour (Apr 15, 2004)

I have no advice on the nursing part (DD was a NICU baby and never learned to nurse so I pumped) but I am also not a great "cuddler" when I need to sleep. Our solution was that DH actually holds DD when she needs cuddles at night. She has always been in our bed and we have found that it works better with him holding her. He sleeps perfectly still and I am a "roller", so I was sleeping very poorly when I was holding her.

I don't know if this is an option for anyone else, but it worked for us.


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## Sasharna (Nov 19, 2008)

Do you think she might share your aversion to being touched while trying to sleep?

I don't have any sure fire solutions for that problem, but (as the mother of an easily over-stimulated child) I always feel compelled to talk about the importance of considering that a particular baby may be be more disturbed than comforted by bouncing, rocking, closeness, etc. The fact that she needs blackout curtains and white noise hints in that direction, to me. If you are open to letting her sleep in another room, I think it might be worth the initial hard work and exhaustion of finding a way to make that happen. I suspect that she is waking up more often than she otherwise would, in response to your movements or sleep noises.

Please note that I am not saying that sleeping in another room is best for every child, simply that it's worth considering that a small percentage of children are better rested when they are given the chance to sleep alone.


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## erinwestpoet (Aug 18, 2005)

Yes, I would definitely look at your daytime routine and start from there. Does she have regular naps? I know some people don't like the book Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child, but it has EXCELLENT advice about making naps routine and then making bedtimes routine. The author explains the different sleep patterns children experience as they grow, all the way through school age. It helped us tremendously. You don't have to do the CIO to make it work. My daughter was a very sensitive baby, had reflux, would scream at all hours of the night and then laugh at me when I came to her aid. I was not sleeping and was borderline crazy from sleep deprivation during the day. I started her bedtime routine at 4:30 (I know!) and put her down at 6pm every night. She just needed that much sleep and still, at 3.5, goes to bed by 7pm (or 7:30pm if she has taken a nap). My son never needed that. He has always just been nursed to sleep. We went through a lot of night waking with teeth, but he has always just wanted to sleep independently and has never needed the extra "drama."







I also don't see anything wrong with children not cosleeping or sharing a room with you. I have found with my kids that sometimes what I want or desire often isn't what works for them. Anyway, I wish you lots of luck. I hate being sleep deprived.


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## springmum (Aug 30, 2008)

I am in no position to be giving any words of wisdom, so I will just give my support. You will make it - one day at a time.


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## SeekingJoy (Apr 30, 2007)

DS went through this stage. (It lasted until about 2.5. I hope your LO outgrows it sooner.)









The book that really helped us was Sleepless in America. We learned/realized he needs lots of structure, a ridge bedtime routine, lots of physical exercise during the day, and a lot of calming physical touch to get to sleep. He craves for each day to be just like yesterday.

During the night, he also needs to be apart from us to sleep. We miss co-sleeping with him, but turns out we wake him up.

Honestly, it is tough. Some days we mess up. If he is late getting to bed or late napping, he still wakes up to a dozen times a night. But last night, he STTN.


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## chely7425 (Aug 8, 2007)

My DS is a little younger then your DD (about a month it looks like, he was born 4/08) and he was doing the exact same thing. Waking up every 45 minutes to an hour, nursing for like a minute but screaming bloody murder when i unlatched him. Turns out that cosleeping was messing with him like no other and that he needed to be allowed to fuss in a safe environment before bed. We in no way did CIO, it my mind, but he would just have some frustration to get out so we would sit in our nursing chair and rock and I would sing to him and he would groan and complain and then fall asleep. He pretty much sleeps through the night now that I have realized that he gets grumpy just like I do and that he needs to be able to express that while feeling loved and protected. I hope you are able to find a solution!!!


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## KimPM (Nov 18, 2005)

A few thoughts:

Teething? use something to help relieve her pain

Could she sleep with your DH in the bed while you sleep somewhere else? we discovered DS sleeps way better with just one of us than with both of us. He's still not a great sleeper, but he was so restless and kicky with both of us in bed.

Do you ever pump your milk? Is it foamy? If so, then it could be gas she's having. We had this problem until I stopped eating the foods that *I* am sensitive to. (I was actually tested for food sensitivites. An elimination diet would not have helped me as I am sensitive to odd things that I would never have imagined or eliminated...rice, apples, and carrots for example.)

She's about 9-10 months, perhaps a bit young for this but try first offering her a sippy (or bottle) of water instead of BFing every time you would normally offer the breast. If she really wants a feeding instead, she will let you know. That helped us reduce the night time feedings to only those where he was truly needing to feed.

Does DH ever try to handle any nighttime wakings? Does he ever instead take her in the morning so you can get a hour or two of catch up sleep? Or take her at night so you can at least start out with a couple of good hours?

Is there anybody else who could take her during the day and give you a little rest once in awhile?

Do you have any more specifics on what happens?

Will she only go down to sleep nursing? Have you tried motion? A swing? If she's too big for a baby swing how about a Step 2 Toddler Swing? http://www.amazon.com/Step2-7488KR-T.../dp/B00073HI0A
Or maybe a rocker/glider?
How about an exercise ball? We gently bounced DS on it while watching a nice, boring (to him) PBS show.

If you have a basket-style car seat that removes from the base, you could strap her in it and hold her on the clothes dryer while the dryer is running. The gentle motion there often helps.

Does she sleep in the car seat? Around that age, we often had to take DS for a drive in the car to get him to sleep. Not every time, but at least for the first time at night.

Is she getting enough movement/exercise during the day?


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## Autumn C. (Jul 30, 2008)

Thank you so much for all the replies. It's quite wondorous how someone being empathetic can help.

Let me try and reply to everyone.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 









that's a LOT of wakings. No wonder you're exhausted!

Have you investigated food sensitivities?

-Angela

Yep. No change.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Theoretica* 
Wowzer you sound totally burned out! One thought that comes to mind is swaddling?

I'm sure someone will have some answers for you mama...can you get a break for an hour or so and get a nap in?










She was swaddled until about a month and a half ago when she stopped accepting it. I tried to nap today. DH brought the baby in to "sleep with me." Baby didn't sleep. I diddn't sleep. Got rather grumpy with dh though.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *fairejour* 
I have no advice on the nursing part (DD was a NICU baby and never learned to nurse so I pumped) but I am also not a great "cuddler" when I need to sleep. Our solution was that DH actually holds DD when she needs cuddles at night. She has always been in our bed and we have found that it works better with him holding her. He sleeps perfectly still and I am a "roller", so I was sleeping very poorly when I was holding her.

I don't know if this is an option for anyone else, but it worked for us.

Dh works nights and doesn't usually get to bed until 4am or so. At any rate I'm finding him well intentioned but a bit clueless as to how worn down I am becoming.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sasharna* 
Do you think she might share your aversion to being touched while trying to sleep? *No. She reaches for someone in her sleep. Usually me. sometime dh.*
I don't have any sure fire solutions for that problem, but (as the mother of an easily over-stimulated child) I always feel compelled to talk about the importance of considering that a particular baby may be be more disturbed than comforted by bouncing, rocking, closeness, etc. The fact that she needs blackout curtains and white noise hints in that direction, to me. If you are open to letting her sleep in another room, I think it might be worth the initial hard work and exhaustion of finding a way to make that happen. I suspect that she is waking up more often than she otherwise would, in response to your movements or sleep noises. *In the early months, I was quite sure she was easily over stimulated. But now I find it is more an function of not ever wanting to shut down. Now, she could sleep with out the curtains but would much rather look at the kids playing outside. And yes I am open to anything that might help her sleep a little better. The only other room we have is one that my 9 year old sleeps in. I've been trying to figure out how to make that work when she goes to sleep as early as 6:30pm and we have no other place for him to play.*


Quote:


Originally Posted by *erinwestpoet* 
Yes, I would definitely look at your daytime routine and start from there. Does she have regular naps? I know some people don't like the book Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child, but it has EXCELLENT advice about making naps routine and then making bedtimes routine. *Read the book. I started control her sleep times around 4 months, maybe closer to 5. Starting with waking her up at the same time every day. Taking her outside for bright sunshine and stimulation and then winding down using our routine to have her first nap around 90 min. after she woke. In fact, I spent ALL of my dh's family leave time focused on nothing but my LO sleep. I've only recently become to exhausted to keep it up.*


Quote:


Originally Posted by *SeekingJoy* 
The book that really helped us was Sleepless in America. *Read that one too. I'm pretty sure that as she becomes more physically mobile I will be able to exercise her more and that will help the sleep issue.*We learned/realized he needs lots of structure, a ridge bedtime routine, lots of physical exercise during the day, and a lot of calming physical touch to get to sleep. He craves for each day to be just like yesterday.

During the night, he also needs to be apart from us to sleep. We miss co-sleeping with him, but turns out we wake him up. *I think that is possible too. I've had the idea that she would sleep a little longer if I could get her to fall asleep IN her crib so, in theory, at the first 45 min waking she go back to sleep. But seriously, I can't imagine how that's possible. I did everything in NCSS especially the "Pantley Pull off" which was a god send for me. But it's interesting though, she never took to a lovey. I used to hold it between us while nursing and she would take it and throw it across the room!*



Quote:


Originally Posted by *chely7425* 
My DS is a little younger then your DD (about a month it looks like, he was born 4/08) and he was doing the exact same thing. Waking up every 45 minutes to an hour, nursing for like a minute but screaming bloody murder when i unlatched him. Turns out that cosleeping was messing with him like no other and that he needed to be allowed to fuss in a safe environment before bed. We in no way did CIO, it my mind, but he would just have some frustration to get out so we would sit in our nursing chair and rock and I would sing to him and he would groan and complain and then fall asleep. He pretty much sleeps through the night now that I have realized that he gets grumpy just like I do and that he needs to be able to express that while feeling loved and protected. I hope you are able to find a solution!!!

Is that called crying in arms? Yes, I've done that from time to time more because I'm exhausted. It didn't ever help.


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## mamaverdi (Apr 5, 2005)

Ideas you might not have tried:

Did you/she have a traumatic birth? Talking to her about her birth experience might help. As well as EMDR if you/she did have trauma.

Did you have birth interventions like antibiotics? Have you tried putting her on probiotics?

You mentioned reflux: does she have any other physical health issues (even rashes)?

Have you tried cranial-sacral therapy with an osteopath (sometimes called Osteopathy)?

Have you tried homeopathy? I realize a lot of people think it's very woo-woo, but for us, we've had some incredible results. YMMV.

Have you tried talking to her about it? I realize she's very little, but they know a lot these little critters.









Have you tried letting her just work out her own sleep schedule, and not using the books to go by?

Finally what about a sleep study plus physical exam? Does she have abnormally large tonsils or some such? (I would do the sleep study as a very last resort personally.)

I'm so sorry you aren't getting any rest.


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## Autumn C. (Jul 30, 2008)

Wow. Let me get started.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KimPM* 
A few thoughts:

Teething? use something to help relieve her pain*I have and do use Motrin when I suspect teething to be a factor.*

Could she sleep with your DH in the bed while you sleep somewhere else?*I wish. Dh doesn't get into bed until around 4am or so.*

Do you ever pump your milk? Is it foamy? If so, then it could be gas she's having. We had this problem until I stopped eating the foods that *I* am sensitive to. (I was actually tested for food sensitivites. An elimination diet would not have helped me as I am sensitive to odd things that I would never have imagined or eliminated...rice, apples, and carrots for example.) *No I don't pump. Well, I haven't in over a month. It was never foamy. Is there any other signs? I don't think I'm sensitive to things like carrots but I'll investigate anything.*

She's about 9-10 months, perhaps a bit young for this but try first offering her a sippy (or bottle) of water instead of BFing every time you would normally offer the breast. If she really wants a feeding instead, she will let you know. That helped us reduce the night time feedings to only those where he was truly needing to feed.*I'll try this, although she does more playing with the sippy cup that drinking from it. I've tried to pop in a pacifier before she awoke totally but she.was.not.having.it.*

Does DH ever try to handle any nighttime wakings? Does he ever instead take her in the morning so you can get a hour or two of catch up sleep? Or take her at night so you can at least start out with a couple of good hours?

Is there anybody else who could take her during the day and give you a little rest once in awhile?

Do you have any more specifics on what happens? *I have tried rigid routines moving her bedtime to as early as 5pm trying to find the magic "sleep window" that doesn't exist. Now, when ever she goes to sleep (sometimes as early as 630 sometimes as late as 1000pm-I always try to put her to sleep earlier she just doesn't always go to sleep.) She wakes at either 20 or 45min intervals. We have an established routine, I keep the house dim and quiet. I try to keep the temp to an acceptable level. After 1-3 wakings depending on when she went to sleep. I bring her to bed and try to take advantage of the extra space since dh isn't there. When she wakes she nurses for varying times is usually upset but nothing that indicates serious issues, just, you know fussy. I've tried staying stock still to see if she resettles. I've tried nursing the second she stirs to keep her from waking all the way. A couple of times she'll nurse and go back to sleep. Sometimes its she'll nurse and not accept delatching for 7 or 8 times and by then I'm awake. I've tried tracking the wakings to see if I can deternine a pattern.
*
Will she only go down to sleep nursing? Have you tried motion? *She usually falls asleep in my arms while rocking. Before that it was bouncing on a yoga ball. Before that it was walking while bouncing surprisingly vigourously. She never fallen asleep in a swing. She only rarely falls asleep in the car.* Is she getting enough movement/exercise during the day?*You know, I suspect she could handle a bit more but how do you exercise someone who doesn't walk?*


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## Autumn C. (Jul 30, 2008)

.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaverdi* 
Ideas you might not have tried:

Did you/she have a traumatic birth? Talking to her about her birth experience might help. As well as EMDR if you/she did have trauma.*I don't think her birth could be considered tramatic. The only real issue is that she came CRAZY FAST and my calm birth using hypnosis got thrown out the window as I tried to convince the hospital staff that she was coming NOW. (I had a stitch around my cervix that needed to be removed. She came the six hours before I was scheduled for the simple in office procedure. I was confident she was healthy but worried that her fast coming was going to do damage to my cervix. I'm fine. She had too much jaundice that required 3days in the NICU but other than that she has been healthy as well.*

Did you have birth interventions like antibiotics? Have you tried putting her on probiotics? *I don't think so. Again it happened reeeaally fast.*

You mentioned reflux: does she have any other physical health issues (even rashes)?*No*

Have you tried cranial-sacral therapy with an osteopath (sometimes called Osteopathy)? *Huh? No seriously. I have no idea what that is.*

Have you tried homeopathy? I realize a lot of people think it's very woo-woo, but for us, we've had some incredible results. YMMV. *Ditto above.*

Have you tried talking to her about it? I realize she's very little, but they know a lot these little critters.







*What would I say?*

Have you tried letting her just work out her own sleep schedule, and not using the books to go by? *Yep. That's where we've been for the last month or so. It hasn't had any affect on her nightime waking although the daytimes are much more enjoyable. I was beginning to feel imprisoned by her sleep schedule. She's actually quite fun. A lot of personality and spunk.*

Finally what about a sleep study plus physical exam? Does she have abnormally large tonsils or some such? (I would do the sleep study as a very last resort personally.)*Ya, I think I'll wait on that. I still feel that this is something I can guide her in I just need to know how.*

I'm so sorry you aren't getting any rest. *Thanks. You had a lot of ideas I hadn't considered before. That gives me hope.*


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## widemouthedfrog (Mar 9, 2006)

oh my, my dd did the same thing. Again, it lasted until ~18 months, then 3-5 night wakings until age 2 1/2.

Are you able to go to sleep with her, or would that frustrate you even more? I tried to log ~12 hours in the bed, which sometimes drove me nuts, but I got a little more sleep that way.

Do you have outdoor time in the morning? In addition to waking from any light at night time, dd needs outdoor time to set her biological clock.

Do you have any caffeine whatsoever in your diet, even chocolate? I'm sure that this was part of the elimination diet.

You say you tried the pantley pull off. What I did to help push nightweaning (not suggesting this for your dd, but that's when I did it) was to nurse almost lying on my tummy. To picture it, if I lie on my right hand side, dd would nurse from my right side. Instead, I go on my tummy and nurse from the left side, gradually slipping dd off the nipple. The breast disappeared under me, and because she couldn't feel it or smell it she fell back to sleep. Maybe you could try this sometimes? In dd's case, it was as if the breast was her lovey, so she needed some brief contact with it, felt better, and then it mysteriously moved away.









My dd really needs to push against something when she sleeps. She still sleeps wedged into my back, which sounds like it would not work for you. Swaddling might give that "hard surface" feeling - I wonder if there is anything else you can try if this is her inclination?

As for rocking and bouncing, dd was bounced until she got to be 25 lbs, then I had to stop. If I had another like her, I would absolutely try the baby hammocks, both for motion and for the feeling of swaddling/pushing against her body.

As you know from the NCSS, it sounds like she's not settling into her deeper phase of sleep. She's needing you to nurse and be there through her smaller wakings. I found that my dd was extremely sensitive to her own movements, so we swaddled. She is really sensitive to light, so blackout blinds and curtains. She had huge wakings any time she was teething, which was almost all of those first 2.5 years.

Big hugs to you. Sleep deprivation can be very, very hard.


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## Meg_s (Apr 13, 2006)

hmmm this may have been mentioned already but for my kids food sensitivities control the sleep... ah just scrolled down, you tried it already - eliminating, gluten and dairy... salicylates as well? www.fedupwithfoodadditives.info is a great site for figuring out what is wrong.

As someone who has been there with the sleep, just bite the bullet and hire a babysitter for a week to come first thing in the morning and TAKE THE BABY OUT for 2-3 hours and go to bed. Don't get dressed in the morning, don't tidy up or have coffee - just have a little milk or snack ready and packed the night before and have someone come and give you a break and go right back to bed with earplugs and a fan or some white noise on and a dark room. It's gotten ridiculous and you need it. The baby needs you to get that sleep too. You're probably completely panicked and in despair right now with no relief in sight.


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## Lizbiz (Jun 15, 2008)

Hey Momma,

OK - I only have one LO - and we never had the kind of issues you have to the same degree... but I found that at 8-9 months - my LO was ready to sleep in his own room. We figured this out unintentionally one week when both DH and I had food poisoning and slept in our living room for a few nights because we knew all the multiple trips to the bathroom would disturb our DS's sleep. He was already sleeping in his own crib in our room (and had been since about 2 1/2 months). At that point he had been waking 2 times per night to nurse. When we slept in the living room - he slept 11-12 hours without waking (we had doors open so we would have heard him if he woke up). It was enough to convince us that we were disturbing his sleep.

I read that your house set up doesn't give you much flexibility. Ours doesn't either. We converted our living room into our bedroom and gave our bedroom to our son. It's not ideal, but all of us are sleeping better. Could you and your DH somehow deal with trying to sleep in your living room for a week to test it out and see if it helps? Give your LO complete silence and stillness to sleep for a week to see how she does? Then you could brainstorm about some creative way to use your space if it does work to get everyone more rested.

Other than that - I think PPosters have covered everything I can think of. The only other thing we did that helped us at an early age - at about 6 weeks - we stopped any/all motion/bouncing to help get DS asleep. We let him cry in our arms for 45 minutes one night because we didn't want him to be addicted to motion (we had been bouncing him for at least 2 hours every night to get him asleep and we knew this wasn't good for anyone) to fall asleep. We just laid him in between us and went to bed. It was a long 45 minutes - but he did it, and he adjusted beautifully to falling asleep without bouncing.

OK - I hope things turn around for you - and soon.


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## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

First up, I have to tell you that I haven't bothered reading anyone else's responses.

I have four living children. All of them have had disrupted sleep at this age, and it's been worst at 9 and 10 months. Two of my kids have allergies, two of them don't. It has made absolutely no difference whatsoever to the crappiness of their sleep. I've also talked a lot with other mothers of babies the same age, and the majority of people I've spoken to agrees that nine months is the pits, the bomb, absolute hell on earth when it comes to sleep. I'm there right now with my youngest and frankly, there are times when I wonder why we had him. It's that bad








IMO, this is because this is primarily developmental. Babies brains are going through huge chances and shifts at the moment because they're learning so much more. In addition, your daughter is learning about object permanence now, and she remembers you when you aren't there. Is she by any chance having some separation anxiety during the daytime as well? I'm not an expert on child development, but the little I've read would seem to support this. The good news is that even the worst sleepers do eventually sleep through- I mean, through-through. In a bed that isn't occupied by you.

The solution, therefore, is that you find a way of getting your own sleep needs met- you get the coping strategies in place whilst waiting for her to grow out of it. Do you have a partner who can be entirely on-call for half of the night so you can sleep solidly elsewhere? What can you pare from your food budget to hire a babysitter for a couple of hours on a regular basis so that you can get a nap in? Do you WOHM? Can you find somewhere to sleep in your lunch hour? Remember, this is likely to be a short-term crisis and the chances are that this is as bad as it is ever, ever going to get. From here on, it's going to get better.
This could be a good time to switch around bedtime routines and particularly introduce the idea that she sleeps in a crib, if this is a goal for you. I find that there's a point in this spell where we go from cosleeping making them sleep better to cosleeping making them sleep worse: if this is the case for you, then try it.

I know none of this is what you wanted to hear, but I truly believe that things are going to get much better for you, and very soon- within weeks, months at the outside, and it isn't just going to be bearable- it'll be actually GOOD soon


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## KimPM (Nov 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Autumn C.* 
Could she sleep with your DH in the bed while you sleep somewhere else?I wish. Dh doesn't get into bed until around 4am or so.

Could DH still watch her for a couple hours during the day so you could nap?

You need to address your lack of sleep with DH when it's a good time for him to hear it. He needs to know that 4 hours (or whatever) of very broken sleep is killing you. Be specific in your requests to him. Even if he can't help (works too many hours or whatever), at least he will begin to understand.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Autumn C.* 
No I don't pump. Well, I haven't in over a month. It was never foamy. Is there any other signs? I don't think I'm sensitive to things like carrots but I'll investigate anything.

It's a good sign that it's never been foamy. But I'm not sure that definitely rules it out. Other mamas here may be able to tell you about some other signs. The main thing I was getting at is that it can be nearly impossible to do a thorough elimination diet. Even if you can find and eliminate an offending food, you may have other foods still causing a problem. The only way I figured my main offenders out was getting a blood test on myself. Now after 2 years, I've finally got the long list of offending foods out of my diet and can tell within 12 hours when I eat something new if it does not agree with me. I'm not sure I would recommend you start with getting a blood test here. I would try some of the other easier suggestions first, as it sounds like you may have tried elimination of some common food offenders and had no success.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Autumn C.* 
Will she only go down to sleep nursing? Have you tried motion? She usually falls asleep in my arms while rocking. Before that it was bouncing on a yoga ball. Before that it was walking while bouncing surprisingly vigourously. She never fallen asleep in a swing. She only rarely falls asleep in the car. Is she getting enough movement/exercise during the day?You know, I suspect she could handle a bit more but how do you exercise someone who doesn't walk?

It's good that you separate nursing and falling asleep. Try to make sure (if you can) that she nurses and is awake before sleeping. See if that helps. Easier said than done sometimes. For a long time with my DS, I simply nursed him every time he woke. He pretty much got used to it and I hated it, but it seemed at the time the only thing that would settle him, and I was too tired to do anything else. Eventually I got him to the point where I could separate nursing and going to sleep, but he was over 2 years old!

Exercise: you can do crawling exercises with her...put stuff out for her to discover some distance from where she is. Put new stuff out all the time and rotate through so she doesn't get bored. You can use plastic kitchen items, like large cup measures for example. However, it's hard to get the energy for this when you're so tired out.

A few other thoughts:

Try sleeping with a pillow between you and DD on the bed, if you feel it's safe.

Like a PP said, if you're taking any caffeine at all, then take it all out of your diet. You may need to taper off rather than cold turkey. My DS was extremely sensitive to caffeine in my diet.

I tried getting DS to start the night in his crib in our room (which we had just removed as a sidecar to our bed). I tried this between 7-9 months of age. He was not a great sleeper anyway, and this just made it worse. Instead of sleeping at least 1.5 hours intervals, it became waking every 45 minutes screaming. It seemed he just did not like that arrangement. So we brought him back into bed with us. Would having your DD starting the night out sleeping with you help your DD feel secure enough to sleep longer?

The other thing I figured out is that the first half of the night he was comparatively sleeping better (or at least longer stretches) than during the second half. I tried to go down to sleep when he did and it worked out best.

I also did not put him down until he was tired. If I tried any earlier, it took me longer to get him down and he didn't settle for long when he did go down.

Finally, it sounds like she is used to nursing every time she wakes. Even with the Pantley pull-off. Getting rid of her expectation to nurse every time she wakes would be helpful. Hopefully the water substitution will help.

And she doesn't take a lovey, just like my DS. What I started to do instead was have a new (unused) prefold diaper between us while nursing. He eventually started grabbing it and holding it. It became his lovey. He still likes to hold one and chew it while he's going to sleep, and he's stopped nursing a couple of months ago.

Oh, and have you tried sidecarring the crib to your bed?


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## Molck (Sep 9, 2006)

s mama. That sounds so so so hard. Seems like you're in the 9 month sleep regression and that you also got hit pretty hard with the 4 month (and that you LO never outgrew it).

My only advice is to find ways to get yourself through it:

- Search through Ask Moxie blog's archives and read the comments of all the other people going through the same horrible, painful sleep deprivation. And know that it'll get better with time (hopefully months, not years) and with all the work you've been doing.

- And I agree with the advice to find a babysitter or neighbor to take your LO for an hour or two so you can get some sleep. This is advice I need to take myself; I know it's easier said than done.


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## Autumn C. (Jul 30, 2008)

Again thank you so much for the ideas!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *widemouthedfrog* 
oh my, my dd did the same thing.

Are you able to go to sleep with her, or would that frustrate you even more? I tried to log ~12 hours in the bed, which sometimes drove me nuts, but I got a little more sleep that way.*I have done this on my dh's nights off. I find it ridiculously frustrating. Usually, she needs to go the sleep before my 9 year old is ready to sleep so I stay awake to tuck him in and what not. He's definetly feeling the pain of momma sleep grumpiness so I try to have a nice momment for him daily.*

Do you have outdoor time in the morning? In addition to waking from any light at night time, dd needs outdoor time to set her biological clock. *Yes. This is one of the ideas we got from one of those books- can't remember which one. It is also a sort of tradition now. I take both kids for a walk every morning as weather permits of course.*

Do you have any caffeine whatsoever in your diet, even chocolate? *You know, It was part of the elimination diet but since It didn't have any effect, I have fallen back on old coping mechanisms that include chocolate. Well, he's a good reason to stop eating that!*

You say you tried the pantley pull off. What I did to help push nightweaning (not suggesting this for your dd, but that's when I did it) was to nurse almost lying on my tummy. To picture it, if I lie on my right hand side, dd would nurse from my right side. Instead, I go on my tummy and nurse from the left side, gradually slipping dd off the nipple. The breast disappeared under me, and because she couldn't feel it or smell it she fell back to sleep. Maybe you could try this sometimes? In dd's case, it was as if the breast was her lovey, so she needed some brief contact with it, felt better, and then it mysteriously moved away.







*I try this! It actually has the opposite effect. When I get to my stomach she wakes up again! I thought it was only because of the movement but last night it dawned on me it might be because she couldn't smell me anymore. I also noticed when she reaches out to touch me if she gets anything other than skin (a shirt, the lovey -i'm still trying!) that will lead to a full wake up as well.*

My dd really needs to push against something when she sleeps. She still sleeps wedged into my back, which sounds like it would not work for you. Swaddling might give that "hard surface" feeling - I wonder if there is anything else you can try if this is her inclination?

As you know from the NCSS, it sounds like she's not settling into her deeper phase of sleep. She's needing you to nurse and be there through her smaller wakings. I found that my dd was extremely sensitive to her own movements, so we swaddled. She is really sensitive to light, so blackout blinds and curtains. She had huge wakings any time she was teething, which was almost all of those first 2.5 years.

Big hugs to you. Sleep deprivation can be very, very hard.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Meg_s* 
hmmm this may have been mentioned already but for my kids food sensitivities control the sleep... ah just scrolled down, you tried it already - eliminating, gluten and dairy... salicylates as well? www.fedupwithfoodadditives.info is a great site for figuring out what is wrong.

As someone who has been there with the sleep, just bite the bullet and hire a babysitter for a week to come first thing in the morning and TAKE THE BABY OUT for 2-3 hours and go to bed. Don't get dressed in the morning, don't tidy up or have coffee - just have a little milk or snack ready and packed the night before and have someone come and give you a break and go right back to bed with earplugs and a fan or some white noise on and a dark room. It's gotten ridiculous and you need it. The baby needs you to get that sleep too. You're probably completely panicked and in despair right now with no relief in sight.

*I wouldn't call myself panicked. Just, well, done. See meltdown above.*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lizbiz* 









Hey Momma,

OK - I only have one LO - and we never had the kind of issues you have to the same degree... but I found that at 8-9 months - my LO was ready to sleep in his own room. We figured this out unintentionally one week when both DH and I had food poisoning and slept in our living room for a few nights because we knew all the multiple trips to the bathroom would disturb our DS's sleep. He was already sleeping in his own crib in our room (and had been since about 2 1/2 months). At that point he had been waking 2 times per night to nurse. When we slept in the living room - he slept 11-12 hours without waking (we had doors open so we would have heard him if he woke up). It was enough to convince us that we were disturbing his sleep.

I read that your house set up doesn't give you much flexibility. Ours doesn't either. We converted our living room into our bedroom and gave our bedroom to our son. It's not ideal, but all of us are sleeping better. Could you and your DH somehow deal with trying to sleep in your living room for a week to test it out and see if it helps? Give your LO complete silence and stillness to sleep for a week to see how she does? Then you could brainstorm about some creative way to use your space if it does work to get everyone more rested. *That sounds fantastic! Why didn't I think of that! I will definelty try to work this out.*

.


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## Autumn C. (Jul 30, 2008)

Around 5am in her 11th waking I had a little mini meltdown. I was angry at myself, for being so useless and at dh, for being so unaware. I hit the mattress a couple of times in frustration. (I was no where near the baby! Repeat not near the baby! Frustration not directed at baby!) But it woke dh up. I am very embarrassed. Definetly not getting the mom of the year award.

Maybe he'll actually *hear* me this time when I say I need help?

If not I will to find a babysitter. No, I don't have one. No, I don't have any family members available. I am uncomfortable having a stranger watch my baby. In theory, anytime I need a break dh should be available. But desperate times call for desperate measures.


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## Mama Poot (Jun 12, 2006)

I dont have a lot of advice...but one thing that came to mind was her napping schedule. How often is she napping? Even if its car rides or falling asleep while nursing, all those catnaps can make for a wide awake kid at bedtime. Keep her up-wake her up if you have to!!! I only let Fleur take 2 naps in the day, and adjust if she sleeps in the car. But if she falls asleep nursing more than what we do to put her down for those 2 naps, I wake her. If I dont, she will be up too late and more wakeful through the night.

Another thing I would establish is a bedtime routine. I tell everyone this because it has worked so well for us. 8pm-bathtime. 8:30-snack. 8:45-read books. 9pm- lights OUT!


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## hipmummy (May 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Autumn C.* 
I can't.

I don't have any real desire to CIO I just want to know how I can get my LO to sleep better. I'm too sleep deprived to know the exact count of her wakings but its somewher between 8-10, I think. And at least once per night I wake up and stay awake for at least an hour before going back to sleep. I have to unlatch her in order for me to sleep. Sometimes she pops off herself. Sometimes she'll accept it the first time I delatch her, sometimes it takes multiple times.

A brief history:

I intented to room share but not bed share. I am a lone ranger. I cant sleep with people touching me. She slept in a crib next to our bed. She now starts off in the crib and ends up in our bed. She's always been a difficult sleeper causing me to get blackout curtains, have white noise, bedtime routines (bath/massage/song). I have done and ED and explored reflux as a cause. She's been to a chirpractor. I have spent HOURS walking, bouncing, rocking, standing, whatever, I have and have done NCSS.

I need to get her wakings down to 2or 3.

"If you resnt it change it" is sound advice but I am out of ideas.

-----

There is soMething wrong when MDC, arguably one of the the most knowledgeable aND PAssIONATE mama communities in existence doesn't have any advice. Sorry baby helping me type.

Please?

I wish I could help you...well I guess I can and just let you know that yor dd is normal. My ds is 28 months and he still waskes 5-6 times at night. It is what he needs to do...He is very happy during the day and when he does awake I put him to the breast immediately.
I keep the room pitch black/black out shades, noise machine on fairly loud and I do not talk to him. This helped us a lot when he was waking more frequently and it cut down on the number of wakings do to outside factors.
Also I learned A LOT from the NO CRY Sleep Solution. You may not ne able to stop all the waking as she may really be hungry or teething or even hitting a developmental milestone. BUt try some of the things I listed they may help....Good luck..


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## BekahMomToOliver (Oct 31, 2008)

Oh hun, I'm so sorry it's so rough for your little family right now! It's so tough, but you're getting some great advice here and hopefully things get better soon! My son went through a phase at about 9-10 months where he was up every 45 minutes-1 hour all night long. We tried everything we could think of, couldn't figure it out, then after about 6-7 weeks he had 4 teeth pop through in the span of a couple days, and things immediately got better. Exhaustion is so rough, though.
Best of luck!


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## plantmama (Jun 24, 2005)

I agree with the other poster that said 9-10 months is the pits for sleep. My ds #2 was practically sleeping through the night at age 6 months and then it got bad again.
I've also had middle of the night melt downs. I've screamed and cried and woken everyone up. Hit the pillows. Yelled at my kids to GO TO SLEEP!!!








Yeah, not getting the mom of the year award here either.
My dh is also a bit clueless about it all. He has tried to help, but when mama nurses the dads are so much less appealing.
I hope you get some respite soon!


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

We all have breaking points. And IME they come much sooner when it's the middle of the night.

Me- just me- I would wake dh every-single-time she woke for a night or two. Tell him to get up and walk her or rock her or something. Him sleeping and sleeping and sleeping while you melt down in the same room is not acceptable. Time for him to pull his weight.










-Angela


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## Autumn C. (Jul 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama Poot* 
I dont have a lot of advice...but one thing that came to mind was her napping schedule. How often is she napping? Even if its car rides or falling asleep while nursing, all those catnaps can make for a wide awake kid at bedtime. Keep her up-wake her up if you have to!!! I only let Fleur take 2 naps in the day, and adjust if she sleeps in the car. But if she falls asleep nursing more than what we do to put her down for those 2 naps, I wake her. If I dont, she will be up too late and more wakeful through the night.

Another thing I would establish is a bedtime routine. I tell everyone this because it has worked so well for us. 8pm-bathtime. 8:30-snack. 8:45-read books. 9pm- lights OUT!

I've had an established bedtime routine since 4mo. The napping has gone through stages. For a couple of months I was quite strict about trying to enforce a nap schedule like "normal babies" have. Over the past month I have tried a more "go with the flow" kind of attitude. She sleeps pretty much the same regardless of what I'm doing. She can and has stayed awake all day with out more than 20mins of a nap. It doesn't have much noticiable affect on anything.


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## Autumn C. (Jul 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *plantmama* 
I've also had middle of the night melt downs. I've screamed and cried and woken everyone up. Hit the pillows. Yelled at my kids to GO TO SLEEP!!!








Yeah, not getting the mom of the year award here either.
My dh is also a bit clueless about it all. He has tried to help, but when mama nurses the dads are so much less appealing.
I hope you get some respite soon!

Ya, he has this "aw shucks I can't do anything attitude." ANd says with a little shoulder shrug -she just wants her mama!

I think I might try waking him up one night a week. Remember he works nights.


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## Autumn C. (Jul 30, 2008)

And she is definetly teething, too.


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## widemouthedfrog (Mar 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Autumn C.* 
And she is definetly teething, too.

That did it for my dd. I got so frustrated with all of my routines and good behaviors and trying new things, and...she was just teething, and that wrecked anything that I tried. And so I had to refocus and say this will not last, I need to find a temporary solution as I work towards permanent ones. I remember walking around like a zombie and everyone telling me to do CIO.

This is not a sleep solution, but I found that a combination of walks in the daytime with her to get some fresh air, sleeping longer hours when I could, napping when I could...all of this got me through it. I also tried to cultivate an attitude of expectation that I was going on night shift, that I would wake, that I would be calm. I dozed as I rocked her many nights. I sang songs to myself that gave me hope and made me calm.

My dh didn't help with dd's wakings, but that was because he was totally paralyzed that I would be angry with him (he tried CIO when I handed her over) and also felt that he could not do anything except have her cry. He has a demanding daytime job and any waking would mean that he would stay awake all night (he has a hard time waking and falling back to sleep). I frequently got very, very angry until I used some of the coping mechanisms above. We are still working through the impact this had on our relationship, so I'd highly recommend talking it over and thinking of some joint solutions. I wish I'd been able to do so at the time.


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## azzeps (Sep 7, 2007)

Hi mama,

I just wanted to say to hang in there. It will get better. I am clinging to the hope that it will get better. My DD is the same age as your DC. I didn't know there was a 9 month sleep regression too! Gee, that makes me feel better. I have been feeling like "worst mama ever" lately. Can't get my baby to sleep, and stupid enough to think she will sleep without CIO!!! It's hard to hear that advice over and over. I have had melt downs and lost it at night too. Acted in ways that I'm not proud of. That's hard to admit, but you know what, it happens. I have yelled at the baby before. I know, I know, she's a baby, and it's horrible, but I have been so pushed over the edge so many times by now.

Try to get your DH to do whatever he can. I was talking with a mama friend today and she encouraged me to get my DH to go in on DD's first waking with a bottle and get her back down. Even if she cries, she will be crying in arms and that's not the same as being left alone in the crib to cry endlessly. Our babies are old enough now that they don't need nursing for food all night long. I think it really has to do with their development and that they want to see us in the nighttime.

Just please hang in there and know there are others of us out here that are hanging in there with you and feeling just as sleep deprived. I am going to be watching this thread to see if I can get any other ideas to try or at least some encouragement.

hugs to you!


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## PPK (Feb 15, 2007)

I can't read all the replies right now, but ds was a horrible sleeper until around 12 months, now at 18 months he's sttn...I started to think I'd never see the day.

I know at around 8 months ds couldn't sleep well near me anymore, so I tried a crib near the foot of my bed and it worked really well for him, he slept much longer stretches right away. I just took a few days getting him used to it gradually and standing there patting him till he fell asleep.

Don't worry, you're a great mama, we've all btdt (to some extent anyways).

Also, get a sitter!! Even a neighbor girl who'll be affordable and can just take your lo into the living room to play and have breakfast while you get an extra couple of hours of sleep in the morning. I waited till ds was a year before getting help, and in hindsight I really should've done it sooner...its been extrememly helpful!!!


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Autumn C.* 
Around 5am in her 11th waking I had a little mini meltdown. I was angry at myself, for being so useless and at dh, for being so unaware. I hit the mattress a couple of times in frustration. (I was no where near the baby! Repeat not near the baby! Frustration not directed at baby!) But it woke dh up. I am very embarrassed. Definetly not getting the mom of the year award.

Maybe he'll actually *hear* me this time when I say I need help?

If not I will to find a babysitter. No, I don't have one. No, I don't have any family members available. I am uncomfortable having a stranger watch my baby. In theory, anytime I need a break dh should be available. But desperate times call for desperate measures.

Oh honey.







. I've been there (ain't no toddler tantrum can beat a midnight mama meltdown!), and I have a comparatively _good_ sleeper.

I find that my frustration is a hundred times as high when my partner is sleeping peacefully through it. First off, huge kudos to you for surviving so long with your spouse on a nightshift. I'd lose on night one with that. Second, if it were me, I'd wake him up, if only for moral support. His job is no more important than yours, and right now YOU need the help (which is nothing to be ashamed of).

Good luck


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## russsk (Aug 17, 2007)

MY LO is 10 months, and is not a great sleeper, either. Last week we were all sick, so DH and I took shifts sleeping with the baby. While neither of us got a good night's sleep, we each got 4 uninterrupted hours, which felt like a million bucks. It's easy for dh to say that ds needs me and he can't do anything, but when we make an agreement in advance not to do that unless absolutely necessary, lo and behold, it only takes a few minutes for ds to settle with dh. I am sick again, so two nights ago I slept on the couch. I only had to help dh out twice, and it was wonderful. I feel like a new person. DH now also has a new understanding of what I do EVERY night. Last night he even walked ds around before I knew what was going on. Amazing. Maybe you could work out a schedule where you handle your LO until 4, then your dh takes over until you wake up? Or at least get a nap in sometime - alone?


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## Lizbiz (Jun 15, 2008)

Oh I have so pounded the pillows too - you are not alone.









I do understand that your man works night shifts - so I assume that when he gets home and goes to sleep - you continue to get up with the baby when she wakes at night and then you also get up with the two kids in the morning? I'd say wake him up to help then - night shift is no excuse. You need help - and that's totally ok. Every baby has their challenges, and you need your spouse's support right now. Especially if you're working to nightwean (which for you might mean just cutting down to fewer nursing sessions rather than full on nightweaning - which is sounds like your little one is too small for just yet), your husband can be especially helpful. My husband agreed to take over the nightshift when we decided to nightwean a month and a half ago. He didn't love it, but realized that it was for our mutual good as a family. Your husband can give your LO some water, and a lot of love to settle her back down. It will be good for him.

And, yes, work to find a good, reliable sitter that you trust with your LO. It's totally worth it. Ask your momma friends who they have sit their kids and who they like.

Here's to pounding the pillows... It's a better option than many others. I actually believe if you've never pounded the mattress or pillows, you shouldn't be up for the mother of hte year award, because clearly, you've had it too easy







.








s:


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## semi-crunchy (Dec 9, 2008)

I am having similar issues and was just coming for help.

My DS is almost 10 months. He has never been a good sleeper and has always refused to sleep in his own bed. He will not fall asleep with anyone other than me, except for maybe two or three times with DH.

He is now waking close to every hour at night and I am losing my mind. He doesn't always fully wake, but thrashes around and tries to climb on us. It is also causing issues with DH (today he was suppose to wake up at 5am for work, but due to DS, he was up at 4:30 and NOT happy).

We tried adjusting naps, but it does nothing. He gets exercise. We have tried adjusting his bedtime. Nothing helps.

There is no way to have him sleep away from us (or for DH to sleep alone).


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## Limabean1975 (Jan 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Meg_s* 
As someone who has been there with the sleep, just bite the bullet and hire a babysitter for a week to come first thing in the morning and TAKE THE BABY OUT for 2-3 hours and go to bed. Don't get dressed in the morning, don't tidy up or have coffee - just have a little milk or snack ready and packed the night before and have someone come and give you a break and go right back to bed with earplugs and a fan or some white noise on and a dark room. It's gotten ridiculous and you need it. The baby needs you to get that sleep too. You're probably completely panicked and in despair right now with no relief in sight.

I'm halfway through reading this thread and just wanted to comment here. I'm reading through this thread remembering what it was like with DS - not *quite* as bad as the OP, but pretty bad. (He's a sensitive sleeper but wayyyyyyyyyy better now). This post brought tears to my eyes. Such an obvious thing, but sometimes one needs to be TOLD. I think I was afraid to leave my super-frequent nurser as a baby - what if he needed to nurse? BUt looking back...he'd have been fine for a couple of hours, and it may have re-set me and made me more able to cope.
Anyway, for the OP, I just want to commiserate and tell you my bad sleeper *did*eventually improve. I know it's cold comfort right now, I really know, but still: This too shall pass.


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## editornj (Jan 4, 2008)

I don't want to hijack this thread (so I'll start a new one), but I have to say that I am in the same EXACT boat as the OP. Only two differences are that I didn't start a routine until six weeks ago and I didn't stick with an ED long enough to find any answers.

I'm having such an odd emotional reaction to this. I'm shocked and thrilled to learn my DS isn't the only child with these issues, and that together we can troubleshoot. But I'm so sad for all of us who have struggled with sleep deprivation and the frustration in trying to get a sweet, happy child to sleep when they obviously and desperately need to.

I could go on and on. Autumn C. I will be thinking of you constantly and wishing your LO will sleep. Please keep us posted.


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## jeliphish (Jul 18, 2007)

OKay - I don't know what you have or have not tried but here are some more suggestions...

DD seemed to be always in a state of semi-awakeness when she sleeps with us all night. Constantly moving, trying to cuddle then kicking away a minute later....We found out early on that her sleep improved 10 fold when she slept in her own room starting at the beginning of the night. She would sleep solid from 8-4 and then come into bed with us.
Perhaps your little one (i don't know how old she is) would do better with bedtime routine- getting her to sleep, sleeping in her own crib until she wakes. Just a suggestion though and definitly doesn't work for all.

She could be having clothing allergies or pet allergies... can you have her tested? I know you did an elimination diet but if she is reacting to environment then your elimination diet wouldn't help. Environmental allergies can be sooo bothersome.


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

My middle daughter was an awful sleeper until she was about six months old -due to colic. Sleep deprivation is a terrible thing - it was a HUGE factor in my PPD (which I didn't have with dd1 or dd3, both good sleepers). So I feel for you, I really do.

Someone mentioned osteopathy. My midwife recommended it as something that had helped other babies with colic. Our insurance wouldn't cover, but we were desperate so shelled out $800 for what appeared to me to be a very gentle baby massage. Almost just touching her, not rubbing. Seemed more like energy movement if that makes any sense. Did nothing for us except drain the checking. But it does work for some, and if insurance covered it I'd give it a try. Didn't look like it hurt the baby in any way at all to me.

Sounds like you've tried a lot of things. I have to agree with a few other posters that my kids slept MUCH better in their own room than in mine. My theory is that they have sleep cycles just like we do - lighter and heavier periods of sleep during the night. Ok, that part isn't my theory!







Ready? I'm gonna hit you with it!







When baby would come to lighter sleep, she'd smell milk as a nearby option and fully wake up looking for it. I tried sleeping without a pj top in the hopes that skipping that step would keep either of us from fully waking. Not sure it helped but you could try if you haven't already. But my kids slept much better when I moved them to their own rooms - which was at three or four months old for each of them. Unless you live in a studio, I'd try putting baby's crib in another room than where you sleep.

Dp working nights sure doesn't help anything, but I don't think it lets him off the hook completely. My dp has a stressful, full time job - and during dd2's baby months he went to it with just an hour or two of sleep sometimes. I was going crazy with the PPD; something had to give.

I'd give up chocolate again, as you mentioned. No coffee, pop or caffienated tea. No fake sugar. I remember taking my diet down to almost nothing, and it not helping a lick though - so I hear you there.

Bedtime routine will eventually help. We did the warm bath with lavendar wash, warm jammies (I wake up if I'm too cold so wanted to avoid that problem), sat in glider rocker in nursery with baby on lap and read the same three board books - all about going to bed! - every night, lullaby CD on (the cassette - I'm dating myself here - would click at the end and wake her up - SO frustrating!) then nurse and put her in her crib as I crept out - door closed behind me. If she cried, I'd go in and pat or rub her back (lights still off) and softly tell her I was there, she was ok, time for night-night. It was pretty clear when that was going to work and when it wasn't.

I never tried it (or maybe I did - we were so sleep deprived), but I've heard of putting a hot water bottle down in the crib BEFORE bedtime then REMOVING it so the baby's spot was warm - of course checking that it ISN'T HOT.

One thing we DID do was put a baby quilt folded in half UNDER the fitted crib sheet. This way the sleeping surface was a bit cozier and it helped immensely.

Like another poster mentioned, this will pass - but I remember how hard it is. I am thinking of you.


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## azzeps (Sep 7, 2007)

Amber C. I was just thinking of you last night as I kept getting up with my LO. Have you tried slinging your baby down? We have been using a pouch and walking around with DD until she falls asleep, instead of nursing down, as I'd like to take nursing out of the picture as a sleep association as much as possible. So I nurse her til she's very sleepy, then plunk her in the sling and walk, or DH walks her. Sometimes we even do that in the middle of the night. It seems to contain her energy. She started napping better when we started wearing her down for naps. Or maybe it was just a coincidence. Not sure. Just another idea for you.

Oh, and is there a grandma around who could help with some nighttime duties? My mom did that for us one night and it was great. Or maybe your DH can get up with the kids on a weekend day and let you sleep in? That helps too sometimes.


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## mamaverdi (Apr 5, 2005)

I'm glad I could give you some hope. I want to remind you as others have, that you aren't alone.

_Have you tried cranial-sacral therapy with an osteopath (sometimes called Osteopathy)?_ *Huh? No seriously. I have no idea what that is.*

It's sort of like a chiropractor...

http://www.upledger.com/ This is the most famous organization associated with lay people who do this work.

_Have you tried homeopathy? I realize a lot of people think it's very woo-woo, but for us, we've had some incredible results. YMMV._ *Ditto above.*

A mainstream source for info about homeopathy: http://nccam.nih.gov/health/homeopathy/

_Have you tried talking to her about it? I realize she's very little, but they know a lot these little critters._ *What would I say?*

I think given her very fast birth (this is much like my oldest child), I would say some of this is her personality. How about...I dunno, "You are so cool, and I love spending so much time with you. But I really need some more rest at night. Do you think you could TRY to only wake up 3 times during the night? I really need some more sleep, so we can have more fun together."

It sounds ridiculous, but







it's free.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

I am feeling like this is a situation where your DH needs to step up.

I had a similar experience. DD woke every hour or 2 hours from birth to when she was 3 years old (at which point DH took over). I now have a nice case of adrenal fatigue that will take me a couple years to recover from IF I do everything right. At one point I was so fatigued I could not function - could not work, could not even fold a load of laundry SITTING DOWN.

I've had the meltdowns. Most of the worst fights of our marriage happened in the middle of the night. I am legally deaf and wear hearing aids in both ears, but I threw one at DH after a particularly nasty comment from him, the cat came and ate it. And 2 years later I still only have 1 aid because they cost $1k each. Anyway, just one example of how bad it got.

DH also worked nights. There were many additional issues centered around his work.

We were only lucky enough that this happened, so I'm not exactly counting on this as being advice for you, but I got a raise, we cut the budget to the bone, and DH quit his job. It was the BEST thing. It has helped my health, and our marriage, tremendously. I KNOW not everyone can do it, but this is just what happened for us.

DH took over the night shift 100%. He reported 2 somewhat difficult nights. No CIO, all crying in arms or at least with verbal soothing with him lying right next to her. Then she got the message. Within 4 days she went from waking every hour to sleeping entirely through the night 8+ hours. After she wet the bed a couple of times, we adjusted that so DH takes her potty once in the night, and that initially led to her waking up and needing time to go back to sleep, but now she practically sleeps through the pottying.

I am in the guest room, sawing wood the whole night through. Honestly, the first few nights I had insomnia. But after about a month of completely uninterrupted sleep, I now have what I consider blissful, normal sleep.

Your DH needs to take her when he gets home. Yes I KNOW that's a burden for him. But this is a burden that HAS to be split. If you physically burn out, it will have untold consequences for the whole family, for a long time.

I have read and heard of many stories of terrible sleepers going right down for daddy. I assure you I "knew" DD would never do it. Well, it was a little hard for DH for a couple of nights, but that was it.

I don't know what we did wrong, and maybe we'll never knew. I do believe that it's not right - at all - for sleeping patterns to cause a mama to not sleep and even get ill as a result. This isn't an anti-cosleeping rant; it works for many people in this culture, and practically everybody in other cultures. What we did wrong wasn't to cosleep, or to nurse - but heck if I know what it was.

If you believe the solution is also for DH to step up to the plate, but he won't, I'd invite you to post seperately in the Parents as Partners forum. Some folks there are pretty good at suggesting ways to talk with your partner in a nondefensive and nonjudgemental way.

I hope you find blissful sleep soon.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

Oh, I forgot to mention. Based on advice I received right here in this very forum, when DH took over night parenting, he implemented a very strict policy with DD - no nursing (or mama) until the sun rises. DD understood that pretty quickly, but she was 3 years old. But I understand much younger children get it too, at least after a few days if continually repeated, such as when it is time, for daddy to point at the window and say "the sun is up! Let's go see mama!" The first few days she'd be ready to go at the crack of dawn, but it was not long at all until she started sleeping later. Either way, I was getting a MINIMUM of 8 hours of sleep - or at least undisturbed bed time - pretty quickly.

Also, I had heard this before, and it was true for me. I expected the first time I had 8 (or whatever) hours of sleep, I'd wake up and feel like a million dollars. The birds would chirp, my body would feel lithe and strong, a smile would be on my face, and I wouldn't be able to wait to bounce right out of bed and acheive everything I hadn't done for 3 years. The reality was, I woke up all blurry and said "holey moley that was 8 hours??" It takes time to recover from prolonged sleep deprivation. But you DO recover, one day at a time.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

This was probably posted, but the only thing that ever helped my 3 DDs stop waking up countless times at night (even at 18 mos) was nightweaning. With my 1st 2 I enlisted the help of DH, but since he takes care of DD2 at night (yes, separate beds because we don't all fit!) I did it myself.

I can tell you what worked for me all 3 times if that is what you want to do.

I will go back and read the replies when I'm not in a rush!


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## MeadowAndColtsMama (Oct 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sasharna* 
Do you think she might share your aversion to being touched while trying to sleep?

I don't have any sure fire solutions for that problem, but (as the mother of an easily over-stimulated child) I always feel compelled to talk about the importance of considering that a particular baby may be be more disturbed than comforted by bouncing, rocking, closeness, etc. The fact that she needs blackout curtains and white noise hints in that direction, to me. If you are open to letting her sleep in another room, I think it might be worth the initial hard work and exhaustion of finding a way to make that happen. I suspect that she is waking up more often than she otherwise would, in response to your movements or sleep noises.

Please note that I am not saying that sleeping in another room is best for every child, simply that it's worth considering that a small percentage of children are better rested when they are given the chance to sleep alone.

We co-slept fine with ds 'til he was 4.5. But with dd I found we were waking her. Dh is a loud sleeper. With dd I started putting her down in her crib at bedtime, she was 9 months, and she would wake once and come to our bed to nurse and one night for some reason I shut their bedroom door (ds and dd's shared room) and miraculously she slept through the night. I am sure that dh was just waking her and she needed quiet and space of her own. Some kids do just need space. This didn't interfere with our breast-feeding at all. But it was amazing to get some good sleep.


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## morganlefay (Nov 13, 2007)

Wow--you sound just like me about a month ago. When she was 5 months, DD (now 9 months) began waking every hour at night. She had become harder and harder to nurse back to sleep, and much of the night was spent with her waking sometimes every 30 minutes, fussing, squirming, pulling my hair, etc. We were doing a combo of crib and co-sleeping, but it didn't seem to make a difference where she was sleeping--she'd still wake up miserable. I tried diet change, homeopathics, a chiropractor, etc.--nothing worked. My ped told me to let her CIO. I had become totally exhausted, bitter, and unable to focus during the day. So about four weeks ago we changed it up a little and guess what--improvement!

I don't know if you've already tried something like this, but here's what we changed:

-Later bedtime. DD now goes down between 9:30 and 10:30 instead of 7:30. It's hard keeping her up for that long, but worth it.
-I gradually began replacing nursing with rocking/walking/shushing between the hours of 11:00 p.m. and 5:00 a.m. This was rough at first, but so was what we had been doing. After a week, I forbid the boob between these hours. I make sure she gets enough to eat during the day/evening.
-After a few days, when DD woke up for the second time, I would briefly comfort her, and if she didn't fall totally back to sleep, I would let her fuss for a bit while letting her know I was there (the crib is right next to our bed). She protested loudly the first few nights (and still usually does) but, to my surprise, her crying eventually tapers off to a whimper and then she generally goes to sleep. (NOTE: I want to clarify that I am totally against CIO and would never leave DD to scream by herself. I had to try something other than nursing her back to sleep, though, because it was getting to the point that even my boob couldn't soothe her back to sleep anymore.) Now, she will often rock back to sleep without fussing.
-Anytime after 5:00 a.m. when she wakes up I bring her in bed to nurse and for some cuddle time.

For the last few nights, she has slept from about 10 p.m. to 3 a.m.! When she wakes at 3 I rock her and if she won't go back to sleep I put her in the crib anyway (in my room, right next to the bed--again, I want to clarify that I do not believe this is CIO since she knows I am there for her ), pat her, and let her fuss. Her crying/fussing has whittled down to about 10 minutes, after which she reluctantly falls back asleep until about 5 or 6 a.m., when we nurse and I bring her into bed until 7 or 8. I feel like a new woman! I don't mind her waking 2-3 times a night--this feels like heaven compared to what we were doing. I have noticed that since implementing this gentle nightweaning, she is better able to put herself back to sleep, often without crying. Sometimes I hear her wake up slightly, grunt and scoot around a bit, and then go back to sleep--where before she would have screamed bloody murder.

I totally feel for you, mama, and I hope that somehow you are able to work things out and get some rest. For a while I felt like I had only two options: either let DD nurse and flop around the bed all night or let her CIO, which I refused to do. So far we are succeeding (fingers crossed) without doing either of those things, and I am a much saner person and a better mom during the day.


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## NaturalMindedMomma (Feb 5, 2007)

No advice just sending hugs


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## Maggirayne (Mar 6, 2007)

Heh, I have an easy sleeper, wakes 2-4 times a night, and I am pregnant and want to scream some nights. I've pounded the bed and said Go.To.Sleep! very crabbily. DH says that doesn't help.







No joke. I am so tired of getting woken up. And nursing hurts, so I can't sleep while she's nursing, I used to. I did limit her, and she'd fall asleep with a minimum of fussing for a few weeks, but that hasn't lasted.

One thing that did work is murmuring softly, "Mommy sleeping, Daddy sleeping, (Baby's name) sleeping." I did that for several minutes, and she fell asleep. She had been crying and saying "Nurse" and I was saying "No nurse, in a little bit," and she'd cry, so I just changed tacks, and she stopped crying and listened. I used to be able to pat her back or tummy and hum, and she wouldn't let me touch her last night. I can't imagine if I had a baby that woke up all the time.

So you're not alone.

Oh, and the really frustrating thing, some nights she will sleep, but I still wake up and have to pee and then can't fall asleep. Sigh, you just can't win.`


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## Maggirayne (Mar 6, 2007)

Heh, I have an easy sleeper, wakes 2-4 times a night, and I am pregnant and want to scream some nights. I've pounded the bed and said Go.To.Sleep! very crabbily. DH says that doesn't help.







No joke. I am so tired of getting woken up. And nursing hurts, so I can't sleep while she's nursing, I used to. I did limit her, and she'd fall asleep with a minimum of fussing for a few weeks, but that hasn't lasted.

One thing that did work is murmuring softly, "Mommy sleeping, Daddy sleeping, (Baby's name) sleeping." I did that for several minutes, and she fell asleep. She had been crying and saying "Nurse" and I was saying "No nurse, in a little bit," and she'd cry, so I just changed tacks, and she stopped crying and listened. I used to be able to pat her back or tummy and hum, and she wouldn't let me touch her last night. I can't imagine if I had a baby that woke up all the time.

So you're not alone.

Oh, and the really frustrating thing, some nights she will sleep, but I still wake up and have to pee and then can't fall asleep. Sigh, you just can't win.`


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

I had a request for how I nightweaned so I thought I would post it in case it helps others. It is based partly on advice from Dr. Jay. I would definitely not recommend this for any baby under a year-- the closer you can get to at least 18 mos, the better.

(1) Once you decide to nightwean (my method) you have to commit to NEVER NURSING IN BED AGAIN. This can be tough, esp. in the early morning hours, so you have to be sure you want to perhaps give up that extra time in bed.
(2) Decide how many hours you are going to go without nursing. For me, I decided that if I could get until 5 a.m. without nursing, then it would be OK.
(3) If (er, WHEN) your DC wants to nurse during the night, the first thing you do is offer a drink. My oldest wanted milk, so I had a cooler with a sippy full of milk for a few weeks in the room so no one would have to get out of bed. I also would offer a banana or crackers (yes, it got messy, but this only lasted a few days). My other DC did fine with just water because they ate more during the day.
(4) If your DC will not be consoled with anything other than nursing, assess whether or not it is an angry cry or one of need. If you think your DC truly _needs_ to nurse, get out of bed and do it. I found that I had to do this only twice with one DD-- the others never got to that point.
(5) My DC would all wake up (when I nursed on demand, pre-nightweaning) crying to be nursed, often actually screaming. I realized that by continuing to nurse at night, I was making them panicked and unable to truly rest. I remembered that I was helping my child AND myself by nightweaning, because with all of my DC, once they nightweaned, they slept very well at night. I do think a good, solid sleep after 12 months (esp. by the age of 2) is essential to brain development as well. The less time a child is fussy during the day, the better he/she can learn and be at peace. Sleep deprivation = more meltdowns for both parent and child.

Here are some other things to consider--
(1) A bedtime routine. It is a good idea to start putting your DC to sleep without nursing to sleep. You won't always have to do it, but until the child is nightweaned, I think it is wise.
(2) A partner. It is much easier for a child to be nightweaned when you sleep elsewhere and your partner takes over the task. However, IME, it is not essential.

HTH someone!


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## Charlotte's mum (Jul 13, 2008)

Autumn- I read your posts this morning and have been thinking about you all day long... My heart goes out.

My 9 mo dd was pretty much the same until very recently, when a number of things I was trying kind of came together to make things so much better. She's now sleeping (so deeply I have to wake her most of the time) well for long naps, solidly from bed (8ish) until eleven or so (last nurse), then (mostly) solidly through until dawn.

Lots of this has been said in the other replies, but altogether now:

-no nursing to sleep. I cut that out completely, and it took a couple of weeks or so of careful routine, repetition, and patience. I started rocking & singing to get her drowsy, but now I just put her down pretty much awake and she sorts herself out in a couple of minutes (more below)
-no nursing between when I go to bed (dream feed), and dawn. That's usually about 7 hours. For almost two months I did the NCSS, and the PPO worked okay (in that she didn't cry), but it didn't stop her from waking. Too vague for my black-and-white babe. One night I just had to call a boob moratorium. Expect some complaining.
-I talked to her about it (mentioned elsewhere here, as a free solution that can't hurt). When I was absolutely losing it, when she was waking 10 times a night and having only 30 minute naps, we lay down one afternoon and I wept, and explained the seriousness of the situation. I know she's only 9 months, and doesn't get the words, but.....
-she must learn to get to sleep by herself. This sounds impossible, and I thought so until a few weeks ago. We followed the advice of a sleep doula, and it took less than three days, and our jaws dropped in shock. She now sleeps more deeply, and longer, than me or dh. It involved what I think is called supported crying (you're there, just not in a beck-and-call kind of way), but she didn't really cry, just complained for a short time. SHe mostly fooled around, then gave up. Believe me, I NEVER would have believed this would happen with my tenacious little one. Email me if you want to know more about how we did it.

There is hope, it can work, and you will both sleep soon.

Jo


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## Autumn C. (Jul 30, 2008)

Wow!!! Thanks you so much for all the replies and hugs and suggestions. I don't think I'll be able to quote everyone but I'll give an update on whats happening.

So for the past three nights dh has parented her down to sleep "for the night." This came about because #1 he's been off work, #2 I handed her off so I could go to the bathroom and after I was done I snuck into bed and went to sleep! No that is not at all how I would like to have handled it but I was desperate. Eventually he came looking for me to hand the baby back I opened one eyeball and said as sweetly as possible "I know you can handle it dear." ANd went back to sleep.

1st night took about 30 min of protest in dh's arms.
2nd night took about the same.
3rd night took about and hour.

Weird. I thought it would get less as time progressed not more. But when dh puts her down she sleeps longer -An hour and a half to almost 3 hours! before her first waking.

I bring her to bed nurse for a moment and then she whines for a few mins then falls asleep.

Last night after sleeping for 3 hours she whined for almost an hour and a half with catnap like breaks of a minute or three-before I finally nursed her. She kept startling herself awake. - What to do about that? After mentally weighing the pro and cons (reinforcing night nursing vs. a visibly losing it dh), I gave up and nursed her a full hour before my 5am goal.

The had a siziable nurse than popped off and let out a happy "Gah!" and then rolled toward me put her hand on my cheek and fell instantly asleep.









I know I said I don't like being touched when I sleep but I could spend my life like that - her hand on my cheek, breathing in her air- I love my baby!

All this happened without anykind of overall plan. I've just been pulling from a newly full suggestion bin (THANK YOU!) as the need arises. I don't want to jinx anything so I will refrain from stating the exact number of wakings but I will say they are less than before.

As far as naps she has settled into 1 1/2 to 2 hour nap. I do not let her sleep past 3pm. Even then she goes to bed much later than I would like - last night it was 10pm. I've also started waking her up at a set time again.

I'll keep everyone in the loop!

Thanks again!


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## Sophienaz (Nov 5, 2008)

oh, big hugs to you, you must be so exhausted.

I dont' want to come across like a anti-breast feeding person, I really am not, but have you thought about giving the baby some formula in a bottle? Just as an experiment?

I went through hell with my first when I was breastfeeding and the only time he slept through was when I took him off hte breast and gave him the bottle, which upset me enormously, but all of a sudden, he slept 12 hours, uninterrupted, I could not believe it. Made me feel like a failure, of course, but all of a sudden I slept again. The formula is much heavier than breastmilk and really knocks them out.

Why don't you try a bottle before bedtime? Just to see if it helps, as you've tried so much other stuff?

Good luck. XXX


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