# please tell me exactly what to do/say. i am at a total loss. nothing has worked.



## jackson'smama (May 14, 2005)

i have an almost 4.75 year old ds and a just-turned-2 ds. the violence, anger, etc...have pushed me to my wit's end. my 4.75 yo will not allow my 2yo a moment's peace. i am at point of feeling sorry for the youngest b/c he never had the luxury of living a life free of somebody doing something aggressive to him every.single.day. all.the.time. granted, they can play together SOMETIMES. and they will defend one another outside the home (my mom reprimanded oldest for hurting youngest and youngest tried to hit grandma with a badminton racket for trying to make oldest sit in a timeout?!?!)
i am SO SICK of the hitting, smacking, kicking, poking, pushing, shoving, driving into (on toy cars), etc....i cannot take much more.
dh is yelling ALL THE TIME now it seems and i know he's swatted oldest's butt at least twice. i'm like "you cannot exhibit violence yourself and expect more of your son than you expect of yourself". i just think it's total frustration b/c i'm feeling that desire myself and i hate that.
besides the violence, ds has become bossy, whiny, tantrumy, etc...always says "you need to follow MY rules" and things like that. refuses to pick up toys - actually said "i don't care what you say" to me yesterday when i asked him to pick up toys and offered to help.
he's greedy (always wants a new toy, steals food off other's plates, etc...).

i swear, i'm raising the child i said that I'D never have. i want to be a better mother and figure out what to do here, but i am clueless. please help.


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## Porcelain Interior (Feb 8, 2008)

He sounds jealous. Perhaps he feels replaced by little brother?

My kids don't get along at all, they are girls and 6 years apart. We don't have any violence, but the oldest thinks the youngest ruined her life by being born.

I'm not sure why, it's more of a personality type. She swears she was meant to be an only child.

My only advice is to try and spend copious amounts of one on one time as much as you can with your oldest and try to rebond so you have some things that are just between the two of you.

Maybe pick a part of the day and create a special ritual for just the two of you?


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

What kinds of things have you tried?

Have you tried time-outs?

Since he loves new toys, what about a positive token system or sticker chart (e.g. every half hour he goes without aggression towards the younger one earns a token/sticker, and at the end of the day he can "buy" a toy based on the amount earned - since the behavior is so frequent, the reward needs to be frequent as well).

If you feel its attention-seeking, you could try ignoring his behavior and lavishing his victim with attention and cuddles. Only if you think its to get your attention or to prevent the sibling from interaction with you.

I don't know that there is much to say to him, except short and sweet, "No hitting" and immediate removal or consequence, since he probably already knows what he's doing wrong.

Most of that other stuff (what you call "greedy," bossiness, talking back) is pretty typical for the age. Not that it shouldn't be addressed, but it sounds like the priority is aggression towards his sibling, so maybe some of that other stuff you could either ignore, block, or simply ask for rephrasing.

The PP's advice for one-on-one time and rebonding time seems critical, too.


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## Chiroalltheway (Aug 18, 2007)

DS1 just turned 4 this week, and DS2 is 2. I HEAR you on the violence, sibling rivalry, etc.!! I actually laughed when I read your post. (NO OFFENSE, seriously!!!) I think yours is a little worse than it is here, but I think the age of your oldest probably has something to do with it. I don't know about that age yet, b/c we haven't been there, but as far as the violence among the boys thing goes, here's what I think and what we do. I think boys are just like that (yes, I do think it is influenced by many, many things BECAUSE they are boys, and are treated differently by their parents, etc. etc. etc. but that's another post







) Anyway, I think they need to have opportunities to express their violence/anger/energy/whatever it is or whatever you want to call it. I think they need a lot of time outside, make sure they're getting plenty of sunlight, sweating to detox, climbing on things outside, etc.

Personally, since DS1 is the oldest and is very aware of when he is angry and can vocalize that, we tell him that it's okay to be angry, but he needs to go deal with it away from the person he is angry with if he cannot simply use his words in that moment. "Are you mad? Why don't you go to your room and I'll come talk to you when you're ready." Then, I help him verbalize what he was angry about, tell him alternative ways of dealing with it (if he was hitting or something like that.) We talk a lot about doing to others as he would have them do unto him. He gets that now. (understands it) We do let DS1 stomp down the hall and slam the door if he is angry. Some might not agree with that, but at his age, I feel like he just needs another outlet for his anger, since he doesn't have all of the words yet. He has started doing that less and less now that his vocabulary/understanding is growing.

I try my DARNDEST to be a good example when I am mad. "Mommy is so frustrated right now, and I need my space so I can calm down!" I will even go to my room and close the door (quietly







) DS1 has started giving himself time-outs, which is funny b/c we don't even use that phrase with him. (We have always said, "Why don't you go to your room ....")

Anyway, I guess my summary of advice







would just be to be obvious about your own dealings with anger issues to set a good example, give DS1 plenty of opportunities to vent and to deal with that extra energy before it builds up, give DS2 plenty of alone time (even if he has "room time," which is what we do with our DS2, and he LOVES it







), and do a lot of talking after the incidents once DS1 has calmed down.

Does that help??????????


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## ChickyMama (Dec 15, 2005)

My first thought is that their needs to be an immediate consequence for unacceptable behavior. In real life, if you hit, kick, hurt someone, at the very least that person doesn't hang around you anymore. I would try to reason with the oldest and discuss on a regular basis, how important it is to love each other and treat each other with love and respect. If he is going to treat his younger brother that way, he will one, have to be removed from the situation and possibly lose some sort of privilege and same thing for the younger child if he is misbehaving. Try to relate it to real life situations. When my 4 yo daughter screams and yells or hits me when she doesn't get what she wants, I ask her what would people do if I acted that way in the grocery store to the checkout lady or at the bank etc. Sometimes this helps her to realize how ridiculous she is acting. I really try to teach my daughter that she can make herself happy by doing things that will make others happy. Such as sharing with her little brother because then he will learn to share with her also or playing with him nicely so she doesn't have to play alone, or not fighting so Mommy is happy and wants to do fun things like go to the park or zoo because she knows it will be a good time since her children are behaving etc. Sometimes it sinks in sometimes not but eventually it will stick especially after seeing results. And if the older one can get it the younger one will usually follow suit.

My second thought is that especially boys have a lot of physical tension they need to release. Maybe your son needs to tunnel his aggression in a healthy way such as wrestling with dad, a sport like soccer or martial arts, a nice big punching bag, something so that your younger one isn't the brunt of it all the time.

Hope that helps! (=

~Diana


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## janasmama (Feb 8, 2005)

I agree that the greediness and wanting is typical. I have a 4.75 daughter and she constantly wants stuff. In the effort to help her desire to be a small consumer I have began to educate her about marketing and how toys get made. I don't know if marketing to children is something that you are familiar with but it's a great time to educate our kids about it. My DD has taken the information fairly well and when I have a reason besides "no" she can usually handle not getting something.

I've also started asking my DD to stop insisting on her own way. Another tool in the toolbox is the ability to negotiate. I tell my daughter that I am willing to negotiate under certain conditons but I need to know that she will listen to me first and do what I ask.

I also have a 2.5 year old and they are constnatly fighting. I'm sure it's not as intense as 2 boys but none the less I do know where you are coming from. It will get better. Sometimes I send mine out into our safe backyard and take a break for a few minutes.


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## Adasmommy (Feb 26, 2005)

I'll throw my thoughts into the mix.

It gets really hard to get out of these cycles of them being bad, us being mad. I really think the best way to do it is to try to take away the bad and mad as much as possible (hard, I know).

Really validate him when he is "being good." Talk about what a good brother he is when he's acting like a good brother. Refer to him as a good kid, nice kid, friendly, etc and act as if you expect it.

When the unacceptable behavior happens, put a stop to it and initiate another activity as quickly as possible, but don't put heavy emphasis on how "bad" it was. Try to be non judgmental when you explain the very obvious "no hitting."

When you give him his good-morning kiss, say, "Let's have a really fun day together and remember to be nice to each other."

You have to break the cycle with love and pleasantness all around. Make it easy for him to be nice without having to accept that he was wrong for being mean. Anyway, that's what I think. And I hope it helps.

Best of luck!


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## janasmama (Feb 8, 2005)

^ This is great information too. It's true. The less I focus on them being bad, the more fun we have and the better mood everyone is in. We know that we have to set boundaries but we don't have to criminalize everything. Just pick the few major things that need more immediate attention and work on those.

I bet if you can feel like your older one is at least responding to you then everything will fall into place.


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## mom2grrls (Jul 24, 2008)

Although sibling rivalry and some hitting, etc is normal when I think my kids are speaking meanly, being bossy, etc I take a look at myself first. Am I being too bossy, judgmental, mean, etc. Just from your 4 y/o saying what he did about "his rules" makes me think he may feel to bossed around.
As for being greedy that's normal too, my son wants whatever his sisters get(esp the oldest) and will pass as he gets older and becomes more open to others(rather than just concentrating on himself).
Try to get more connected again with your older son before you start worrying about him helping you clean it sounds like there may be a disconnect there. Plan an outing for dh, you and him(if you have a babysitter) or perhaps something at home in the evening after the 2 y/o goes to bed. If you haven't read it i'd suggest Playful Parenting by Lawrence Cohen or Siblings Without Rivalry.


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## jewelsJZ (Jan 10, 2008)

Wow, these are my kids! This is exactly where we were a year ago. Not that we are without problems now, but they are different problems. Here's what worked for us to curb the violence. We did a reward based system. I set the timer, at first for 15 minutes, then after some successful days, we stretched it out to 30 mins., then 60 mins., then 4 times per day (breakfast, lunch, dinner, bedtime). Each time the timer went off, each child who had been KIND, got a ticket. They put the tickets into their own bowl. When they got X number of tickets, they got to pick a reward from Mommy's prize box. I put little things in there that we already owned but they had forgotten about, but it was a hit. Little party favors from b-day parties they'd gone to, sheets of stickers, a few pieces of candy, certificates to stay up 30 mins. past bedtime. They loved the prizes. If we were out, I carried tickets in my pocket and did my best to give them to them every few minutes. If they were violent during the allotted time, we said, "I see you hitting your brother. We don't hit. I know you can do better next time." Then we let the timer run out.
Also, we put up signs around the house that said "Be Kind". They can't read, but they asked what the signs said, and we often pointed to the signs and read them out loud when we were reminding them to be nice to each other. Pretty soon, they were pointing at the signs and telling each other this, instead of retaliating.
My almost 5 year old was also doing a lot of back talking and we just ignored him when he talked like that. If he wanted something, we said, "I asked you to pick up your toys. Please do that now and then I will get you a snack/take you outside/build lego towers with you/etc." The talking back is the verbal version of the physical aggression, kwim?
I also agree with the pp's about spending time with him 1:1. That worked for our oldest. There was lots of jealousy about having a younger sister.
Best of luck, it's not easy. it's like living in a war zone sometimes, i know. but it can get better. peace can be restored.


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## jackson'smama (May 14, 2005)

thanks for all the replies and advice.
for those who asked, we've tried ignoring what can be ignored, verbalizing for him ("it sounds/looks like you're frustrated/angry") - and offering ideas for verbalizing and physically expressing those emotions in appropriate ways, spending one on one time with each child, monitoring diet/activity/sleep to ensure those weren't contributing factors, physically separating when necessary, and unfortunately yelling and time-out when we get so frustrated because nothing seems to work.
i am hesitant about a reward system. they seem so controversial here and it's one of those things i question the heck out of. for those who use such a system - tell me how this isn't teaching a child to behave for extrinsic reasons (something that i thought most MDCers were vehemently opposed to). i'm not being snarky here - it just seems that whenever i've read anything about discipline that involves something other than just redirecting, reasoning, and talking that it is somehow damaging and it's put me in a position of worrying that everything i do is a potentially detrimental thing for my children. so if you use rewards to combat violence, for example, how did you decide on this method?


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## LilyGrace (Jun 10, 2007)

This is a little less GD than most on here, but sometimes, I think kids just need it spelled out for them as simply as possible. I have no problems telling a child who's hitting/being mean, _This is not okay. It will not be tolerated. You need to leave the room and come back when you are not dangerous._ And then walking them out of the room, shutting the door between us. Or, taking the other child and walking away to go to a room with a door.

It seems to snap them back into reality when they're not looking for empathy or trying to express how they feel, but instead feeling glee or pride when hurting another. By 5, the difference is usually apparent because this is one of the bossy stages.

We don't use rewards, but I do put an emphasis on meaning exactly what I say. When I need a direction followed I won't say please or 'can you/will you/do this for mama'. It's cut and dry: this needs to happen, I will ensure it happens, and you're doing it because it needs to be done.


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## jewelsJZ (Jan 10, 2008)

We used rewards in this case because we tried everything else (redirecting, distracting, talking about it, modeling the behavior we wanted, playing it out with their stuffed animals) and still my children were hurting each other and my dh and I were getting so frustrated, we were yelling at them. After a couple of weeks with the reward system, they were no longer hurting each other and it has rarely been an issue since then. The way I see it, we could've continued to be frustrated and have them hurt each other, or we could try something else.
I think they had fallen into the habit of hitting/pushing/kicking whenever they didn't like something the other one had done. The reward system got them into the habit of being kinder to each other. It worked for us. It was the right thing for our family at that time.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jackson'smama* 
i am hesitant about a reward system. they seem so controversial here and it's one of those things i question the heck out of. for those who use such a system - tell me how this isn't teaching a child to behave for extrinsic reasons (something that i thought most MDCers were vehemently opposed to).

Its not ideal, for reasons you expressed. It does tend to lead to doing things for extrinsic rather than intrinsic reasons.

BUT if you are going to use negative consequences (time-out, yelling, physically separating, showing disapproval), which also doesn't result in intrinsic motivation, why not use positive ones instead/as well? They are two sides of the same coin, but the positive approach doesn't have as many negative side effects (anger, disruption of the attachment, sneakiness, increased resentment of the other child).

In addition, many behaviors start out extrinsically reinforcing and later become intrinsically reinforcing. For example, using extrinsic reinforcement to learn the sounds letters make will lead to reading, which is (often) intrinsically reinforcing. Children don't usually sound out letters for fun but they will read stories for fun. Learning to interact well with others probably falls easily into this category. At first you do it because you get a reward; later the ability to have friends and play well with others becomes intrinsically reinforcing.


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## jackson'smama (May 14, 2005)

jewelsJZ - thank you for telling me how you came to that decision. i feel like i'm in the same boat of having tried EVERYTHING under the sun - or at least it feels that way. i actually told my mom today that rather than parent them today, i would have wholeheartedly preferred laboring and birthing the two of them simulataneously. all day. i even got slapped in the face today. i actually cried.
separating has been tried. i've tried putting one in one room and one in another and it ramps it up. take this morning for example, youngest was playing harmonica in the kitchen. oldest didn't want to hear it and rather than leave the room, he tried to clobber youngest. no amount of redirecting, discussing, or removing worked. we finally just left the house so that i could put them in carseats in separate areas of the car.
i think the reward system is definitely worth a try. i just hope it's not something that results in him saying "but i don't want THAT" when he gets whatever reward i decide on. and then we end up battling over the rewards.








thanks again for all the replies.


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## jackson'smama (May 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie* 
Its not ideal, for reasons you expressed. It does tend to lead to doing things for extrinsic rather than intrinsic reasons.

BUT if you are going to use negative consequences (time-out, yelling, physically separating, showing disapproval), which also doesn't result in intrinsic motivation, why not use positive ones instead/as well? They are two sides of the same coin, but the positive approach doesn't have as many negative side effects (anger, disruption of the attachment, sneakiness, increased resentment of the other child).

In addition, many behaviors start out extrinsically reinforcing and later become intrinsically reinforcing. For example, using extrinsic reinforcement to learn the sounds letters make will lead to reading, which is (often) intrinsically reinforcing. Children don't usually sound out letters for fun but they will read stories for fun. Learning to interact well with others probably falls easily into this category. At first you do it because you get a reward; later the ability to have friends and play well with others becomes intrinsically reinforcing.

thank you for stating what should have been obvious to me!


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## Surfacing (Jul 19, 2005)

About the hitting etc, it reminds me of a section in Sibling Rivalry in which the author suggests we point out to each child what the other loves and worships about them. Sometimes the hitting and anger is a result of loving the other sibling and feeling hurt/put down by something. Often it's just a misunderstanding. Maybe there's a way they long to connect with each other (evidenced by always wanting to be in the same room) but not knowing how. Just a thought and $0.02.

And about the bossiness -- sometimes when dd1 is using a very bossy tone or saying something rude, I will pause calmly and then say, "Let's try that again." Then I sometimes stay quiet. Or sometimes say her phrase again the way I would really like her to say it, but with over-the-top frilly manners, kind of mockingly saintly with pantomime and everything.







She gets the picture and complies. Worth a try, perhaps? Take it or leave it.








It's hard to live with the constant fighting.


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## momma_unlimited (Aug 10, 2008)

Is hypnosis GD? Haha. When my two boys fight I think to myself... they really do love each other... so why would it hurt to implant them with subconscious suggestions to be kind to each other? Although I hear it doesn't work too well on kids under 3.


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## jackson'smama (May 14, 2005)

ok, dh talked to oldest ds before me and youngest got up yesterday and they discussed a reward system. ds's idea was to use actual money







. we tried the 15 minute timer idea and it was blown within a minute. then we tried to give him a bank of 10 dimes and told him he could earn a dime by being kind but a dime would be taken away if he was unkind. by noon, he was 10 cents in the hole (it had fluctuated all morning between earning and losing). then after lunch, he earned a some back and should have had 2 but "couldn't find them". he didn't care. i just gave up and we left the house to go swimming at mom's. after that, we had dinner and while i was preparing, i asked if he'd pick up some toys. he had dumped out
1) whole box of lincoln logs
2) whole box of blocks
3) whole box of matchbox cars
4) whole box of "random junk" toys like happy meal/dollar store type trinkety things
5) whole can of "junk" which is small road signs, spare tires, little construction workers, etc...a coffee can full

plus he had his lionel train set up on the dining room table and a race track with a box full of my old matchbox cars in my bedroom floor.

we had stuff everywhere and he refused to pick up - even with my offer of help. "i don't want to. i'm not doing it."

in a very matter of fact voice, i said that whatever i picked up would be put away until i determined he was responsible enough to have it back out (he has too much stuff in the playroom right now anyway, so i know that he's probably overwhelmed). but i was just floored by his attitude. i just feel fed up right now. so it all went to the attic.

how long did the reward system take until you saw some form of positive result and PLEASE offer a suggestion of how to make this work. it seems to me he just didn't care about getting a reward. what am i missing? thanks again!


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Has he had one-on-one time with both you and your husband?

It kind of seems to me that by rejecting the rewards he's communicating something deeper here.


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## Surfacing (Jul 19, 2005)

It also strikes me that any new approach to parenting will take some time to take hold. When we change something in how we interact with our child (or partner or whomever) the initial reaction from them is CHANGE BACK! It uncomfortable to change so they want to go back to the familiar pattern. We have to holdfast until it becomes the new norm.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jackson'smama* 
we tried the 15 minute timer idea and it was blown within a minute. then we tried to give him a bank of 10 dimes and told him he could earn a dime by being kind but a dime would be taken away if he was unkind. by noon, he was 10 cents in the hole (it had fluctuated all morning between earning and losing). then after lunch, he earned a some back and should have had 2 but "couldn't find them". he didn't care. i just gave up and we left the house to go swimming at mom's.

It sounds to me like part of the problem here was that the criteria for earning dimes was vague. "kind" and "unkind" are not very specific. I think if you get more specific about what behavior you expect, you'll be more successful. What are you looking for in terms of "being kind?" No hitting? Gentle touches? Using words instead of hitting? Using a regular voice instead of yelling? If you're addressing yelling and hitting, are you rewarding him separately for not yelling and for not hitting?

Also, I would consider, at least at first, sticking only to giving him dimes for positive behavior and *not* taking away dimes at all for inappropriate behavior. Our reward system used points, and we only ever gave her points, we never took points away at any point. I think there is no need to take away points (or dimes), and that in fact doing so can impede progress by increasing frustration. This is only my personal opinion, and how we approached a reward system with our child, but these are my reasons for saying this: 1)It's very helpful to remain as positive as possible when addressing problematic behavior. The more you focus on his positive behavior, the more successful he feels, the better. 2) It's quite likely that at his age, a good chunk of the reason he's engaging in these behaviors is that he lacks the skills to consistently handle his frustration in other ways. So taking away those dimes is frustrating, and runs the risk of adding to the problems. I really think that in general, kids do well if they *can* (as opposed to "when they want to"). I think that when there's a chronic problem, it's not helpful to assume that they just aren't motivated to do better, but rather it's helpful to assume that something is getting in the way of their doing better.

(FWIW, what we did do when our dd engaged in the problematic behavior was have her sit-typically in the same room as us-until she was calm and able/ready to be safe. Then we could talk about what happened, and different ways she might have handled it. "you hit, you sit.")

Also, I found it helpful to address the one or two most problematic behaviors to begin with, rather than addressing all sorts of things all at once.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jackson'smama* 
how long did the reward system take until you saw some form of positive result and PLEASE offer a suggestion of how to make this work. it seems to me he just didn't care about getting a reward. what am i missing? thanks again!

IME, any change in approach is going to take up to several weeks before you start to really see change. These things take time. However, I also think that any reward system has to be just a _part_ of a larger approach.

I think one very good place to start is by making time to have "special time" with him every day (or as close to every day as you can manage) for only 15-20 minutes. This is one-on-one time with one parent. No sibling interruptions, no answering the phone. Let him lead the play. All your verbal interaction with him should be positive (if his behavior becomes problematic, simply say, neutrally, "it's time to be done. Remember we'll have special time again tomorrow"). This should be a positive, enjoyable time for both of you. The whole point of this is to nurture your relationship with him, to nurture trust. This will really help wrt addressing his behavioral issues. The more connected to you he feels, the more positive your relationship, the more he trusts you, the easier it will be to address his behavior. IME, it's so easy to get caught up in a negative spiral when behavior is difficult, and that just makes everything harder.

Also, take some time to really observe him and think about why he's doing what he's doing. What does he need in order to do better? What skills does he need to learn or improve upon? Here's a couple of links to help you consider that:
http://www.thinkkids.org/parents/lagging.aspx

http://www.thinkkids.org/core/pathways.aspx

A couple of great books that I've found helpful are _The Explosive Child_ by Ross Greene (which is just such a great resource when it comes to understanding and dealing with difficult behavior, and which I've absolutely found to be helpful even in parenting my kids whom I wouldn't call "explosive"), and _Raising A Thinking Child_ by Myrna Shure (about helping kids learn the thinking, problem-solving, communication and emotional skills required to resolve conflicts in healthy ways).


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## dillonandmarasmom (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jackson'smama* 
thanks for all the replies and advice.
for those who asked, we've tried ignoring what can be ignored, verbalizing for him ("it sounds/looks like you're frustrated/angry") - and offering ideas for verbalizing and physically expressing those emotions in appropriate ways, spending one on one time with each child, monitoring diet/activity/sleep to ensure those weren't contributing factors, physically separating when necessary, and unfortunately yelling and time-out when we get so frustrated because nothing seems to work.
i am hesitant about a reward system. they seem so controversial here and it's one of those things i question the heck out of. for those who use such a system - tell me how this isn't teaching a child to behave for extrinsic reasons (something that i thought most MDCers were vehemently opposed to). i'm not being snarky here - it just seems that whenever i've read anything about discipline that involves something other than just redirecting, reasoning, and talking that it is somehow damaging and it's put me in a position of worrying that everything i do is a potentially detrimental thing for my children. so if you use rewards to combat violence, for example, how did you decide on this method?

Jackson'smama,

I absolutely hear every word you typed here







.

My kids (4 and 6) are about to be siblings to yet another (in December) and I am keenly aware that i am on a bit of a timeline to try and tackle the violence, yelling and namecalling that goes on before I have another variable in the mix. It has pushed me to really try everything. I do a lot of what you just typed, and it has had very mixed results.

The KEY for us, truly, has been how we start our day. Seriously. My attitude, my demeanor, the way I either rush around (not good) or actually sit with them and chat (much better) makes a very big difference. I also try to "catch them" in the acts of doing things in apositive way together. For example, this morning, while DH was getting ready for work, I was sort of running around getting our house ready for 5 friends to visit the kids (hectic and stressfull). BUT, I caught hte kids sitting on hteir floor finshing a Thomas puzzle TOGETHER. I could not pass up the chance to go in and hug them and tell them how nice it is to be able to watch them havign such fun together being a team. They LOVE those comments. They eat it up!

I know it is hard, and some days you just lose sight rather quickly of what you are hoping to have happen, fall into the frustrated, angry mode of mama-ing, and just throw your hands up. I know. I do it every other day, it seems!

Today, I am actually writing myself notes and leavig them throughout the house to remind myself of the outcome I'd love to have, rather than the outcome I worry about. Things like, "Catch'em being good to one another!" and "Take a breath before you react" really help.

Again, I know all too well how hard it is, believe me, I can really relate to everything you have said here. I do not do any kind of rewards other than just showing them love and telling them I am proud, etc.

Rewards are VERY extrinsic, and you are right to be concerned. I have known kids whom will only do somehting, like be nice, clean up, or say please if there is some benefit to them. It makes me cringe. I hear ya on that one, too.








s to you, and remember to take little moments for yourself to regroup in the locked bathroom, do breathing exercises, remind yourslef how littel they are, how they are growing their little minds, emotions and personalities everyday at an alarming rate, adn that your actions and attitude can really make the difference.

Thinking of you!!


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

I just wanted to add this thought about rewards. I was very opposed to a reward system as well, for a long time. My reservations about reward systems included concerns about extrinsic vs. intrinsic motivation, as well as concerns regarding effectiveness and frustration given that I really think kids already want to do well (and if they aren't doing well, it's because they can't, they're struggling). We came to using one after struggling with some very serious behaviors for a long time. We actually had decided to work with a psychologist to address our child's behaviors, and this was one of her suggestions. I agreed because dh was just absolutely at his wits' end (well, we both were), and I thought why not, we've tried it all. As I mentioned before, we drew the line at taking away points for negative behavior, asking the therapist to instead help us help our child learn the skills she needed to do better.

My thoughts on the reward system that we used are that there have been no negative effects. I don't think that the reward system, in itself, is responsible for the changes in our dd's behavior. I think that it did do some positive things for her and for us, which did help her and us as we worked on changing her behavior. It placed the focus on the positive, which was very important. It gave dd some tangible, positive reinforcement for all the had work she was doing to learn to manage her own behavior, and this helped her feel better about herself. She never became dependent on the rewards for good behavior.

I really think the problems with reward systems are not inherent in the reward systems themselves, but in how they're commonly (over-)used.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jackson'smama* 
so it all went to the attic.

It did sound like he might have access to a bit too much stuff considering his ability to make a mess.

I think your idea is a good one - if he isn't able to take care of his toys, they go away for a while. I just want to caution you about a few things.

First, change can take a while. Take a deep breath and be patient. Consistently implement the plan you have chosen and don't expect immediate results. Now that you have a plan for taking care of toys, instead of removing the whole lot when you reach frustration level, you can (ask him, help him, remind him) after each activity to clean up, and if he is unwilling, calmly remind him that you will put the toys away for him, but you will need to put them away where they won't cause trouble for a long time.

Second, I strongly suggest you just focus on the problematic behaviors right now, which sound like aggression towards his sibling. Just choose one big thing to work on to start. Its going to be way too much to try to focus on everything at once. When the problem behaviors get under better control, you can start adding some other things to work on.

But it really does sound like he might have access to too many toys right now.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jackson'smama* 
how long did the reward system take until you saw some form of positive result and PLEASE offer a suggestion of how to make this work. it seems to me he just didn't care about getting a reward. what am i missing? thanks again!

He won't care about getting a reward until he gets a reward. The coins aren't rewards yet, they are just things. They don't become valuable until they are shown, a few times, to have value through the purchase of something desireable.

For a child that young, I would choose stickers on a sticker chart that is displayed where its easily seen and reached. I wouldn't use coins or tokens or anything he can lose. He won't be able to keep them together until its time to spend them. So you need a system where _you_ keep track of them for him, and he can see his progress. Make sense?

In the beginning, until he gets the idea, you might do a reward exchange every hour or every few hours. Make the reward (the thing he "purchases," not the tokens) closer to the appropriate behavior in time and then slowly increase the time until its once a day.

Identify very specifically what behaviors he can earn tokens (stickers, points, whatever) for. Write them down where everyone can see even if its only you and DH who can read. For example, some things he can earn a token for might be:

1. Asking for something using his kind words.
2. Doing something you have asked within 3 minutes.
3. Playing for 15 minutes with his brother without yelling, hurting his brother, or throwing things at his brother.

There are two kinds of behavior you can give tokens for. One is the _absence_ of problematic behavior (aggression). The other is when he displays appropriate behavior. Its easier to remember to give a token (stickers) for the absence of problematic behavior because it takes less work and attention. Its harder to give tokens for each occurance of the appropriate behavior because it means you have to be paying attention and catch him doing well.

But its way more effective and will mean more to him when you catch him doing something good.

Its less effective to simply reinforce the absense of problematic behavior, but easier for the parent to do.

Finding a combination of these will be most effective and easiest on you. Shift your mindset so that instead of being on alert for what he does wrong, *you're focused on finding what he does good,* and ready to appreciate it verbally, and have him put a sticker on his chart.

I also strongly suggest not removing stickers/tokens for problematic behavior. He doesn't even value the stickers yet, so removing them has no effect and must seem arbitrary and cruel. Make the token portion of the plan purely positive. Use timeout or delayed gratification or ignoring (whatever response you choose for each problematic behavior) but don't tie the punishment to the positive program.


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## jackson'smama (May 14, 2005)

thank you all! ok, i felt like crap for taking away the dimes but i was like DON'T YOU GET IT? YOU LOSE BY HITTING YOUR BROTHER! i didn't say this, i was thinking it and i guess i am just expecting adult thoughts from a 4yo. duh!

we laid out "kind" and "unkind" and we've been using those words and describing them and modeling for awhile, so he knows what we're talking about.

we chose money because we had the discussion with him and money was his choice (over tokens to earn something or stickers).

i definitely caught him being "kind" and rewarded it...holding a door for me, taking a toy to his brother to occupy him because he was about to set up his train for himself.

the one-on-one thing is very hard. like today, i had the kids alone all morning (dh worked late and slept in, then went to the dentist), then i was out all afternoon. neither nap and they both go to bed at the same time. i think i had about 5 minutes with oldest before youngest got up this morning. it's gonna be hard to carve this out with our schedule but DEFINITELY something we want to work harder at. problem is, he balks at it when we've tried. we try to get grandma to take youngest so that he can have time with just mommy or daddy or have both of us all to himself and he's like "but i want brother here too". HUH? the kid you just punched in the ear? are you serious?

yes, i agree that the aggression is the primary issue, but it really seems to be an overall change in him (i'm attributing it to some testosterone surge or something) - where he's just gone bonkers wanting to wrestle, have his way, beat up his brother, and leave a mess wherever he goes. it's hard to just want to work on one thing. i'm not good at that - i need to work on it.

i do want to point this out for analysis. the other day, i had my sewing box out and he and little bro were playing with material swatches, buttons, etc...oldest ended up pinning to quilt squares together and covering the pins with duct tape and giving it to me. i use it faithfully every day to sit my drinks on throughout the day. he is SO PROUD of making that for me and will frequently ask "were you happy that i made that for you?" it makes me sad but i wonder if he's thinking "well, at least that's one thing i've done to make mommy happy". am i right in my analysis of it? if so, i'm in big trouble in the mothering dept. ugh, i feel like a loser.


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## jewelsJZ (Jan 10, 2008)

jacksonsmama, you can break the time down to as few minutes as you need to with the timer. if they can only go one minute, set it for a minute, then slowly increase the time as they have more success.
i think going with the dimes was good, if he suggested it, it may be the thing that motivates him. have him put them in a jar on the counter so they aren't lost.
we tried to phrase the behaviors we wanted to see, instead of saying "you get X for not hitting your sister" we said, "you get X for being kind to people".
And I totally know what you mean about getting out of the house just so you can get them into their carseats and unable to physically fight with each other. BTDT!


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## 54321 (Dec 31, 2005)

I just wanted to log on and say hi and offer support.

I haven't been to the boards in a long time and I look forward to getting involved again.

I identify with a lot. Thanks!!

Lisa


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## Surfacing (Jul 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Magella* 
My thoughts on the reward system that we used are that there have been no negative effects. I don't think that the reward system, in itself, is responsible for the changes in our dd's behavior. I think that it did do some positive things for her and for us, which did help her and us as we worked on changing her behavior. It placed the focus on the positive, which was very important. It gave dd some tangible, positive reinforcement for all the had work she was doing to learn to manage her own behavior, and this helped her feel better about herself. She never became dependent on the rewards for good behavior.

I really think the problems with reward systems are not inherent in the reward systems themselves, but in how they're commonly (over-)used.


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## VroomieMama (Oct 9, 2008)

This thread was a good read.


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## Oh the Irony (Dec 14, 2003)

I highly, highly suggest you read Transforming the Difficult Child by Howard Glasser.

It has been wonderful for us so far! It is very much focused on the positive.

He talks about how intense kids are energized by seeing the adults react to situations so not reacting in a strong fashion helps. Observing them and commenting in a neutral fashion on things they are doing, and yes, a point system. And then short time-outs when rules are broken.

It is helping me create very clear rules and very clear expectations of good behavior. I'm so not rule and structure oriented it really helped me to have a system. He gets points for everything and then can spend them on privileges. You encourage success by being generous with the points and not taking any away.

And hey, it wouldn't be MDC without someone bringing up diet. Look at www.feingold.org and see if he matches any of their checklists. My little one was eating all kinds of salicyates (sp?). We're on day 4 and he seems mellower and more in control of himself.

And big hugs to you--it can be very challenging. Some kids really are just more intense and require more than others in terms of parenting.

eta: and the physical exercise!


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jackson'smama* 

we laid out "kind" and "unkind" and we've been using those words and describing them and modeling for awhile, so he knows what we're talking about.

I get what you're saying here, and I wanted to clarify by what I meant when I said it sounded "vague." We have also always talked about what it means to be kind and unkind-what kinds of things are kind and why. However, we learned that even at ages older than 4, when it comes to using a reward system (and even addressing difficult behavior without a reward system), it helps to be very, very specific about exactly what behavior we're looking for. If I'm rewarding my child for being kind, and being kind encompasses many things, it's hard for the child to really predict and know what to expect and what's expected. It's a much bigger task to "be kind" than it is to "use words to say you're angry." It's much more predictable for a child to know "I'm going to get a dime when I use my words to say I'm angry (instead of hitting)" than it is for a child to know "I get dimes when I do something kind." KWIM?

It's also easier for me, as the parent, to help my child with difficult behaviors when I am very clear and specific about what to address, and when I've prioritized so that I'm not addressing *every* behavior all at once. It's much
more effective for me to decide I'm going to (for example) help my child replace hitting with using words--it gives me a specific goal, and leads me to specific tools and methods to meet that goal.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jackson'smama* 
it's hard to just want to work on one thing.

I hear you. IME, when you work on just one thing, in a way it starts to feel more manageable. You have one priority, and you're working hard on addressing that and letting go of the stress of addressing all of the rest of it *for now.* And when you start to see improvement in that one really important area, the stress level begins to fall and the whole family starts to feel better. Less stress makes the next thing easier to address, and some problems disappear on their own as the stress melts away.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jackson'smama* 
i do want to point this out for analysis. the other day, i had my sewing box out and he and little bro were playing with material swatches, buttons, etc...oldest ended up pinning to quilt squares together and covering the pins with duct tape and giving it to me. i use it faithfully every day to sit my drinks on throughout the day. he is SO PROUD of making that for me and will frequently ask "were you happy that i made that for you?" it makes me sad but i wonder if he's thinking "well, at least that's one thing i've done to make mommy happy". am i right in my analysis of it? if so, i'm in big trouble in the mothering dept. ugh, i feel like a loser.









I wouldn't read too much into this. He made you something that he's proud of having made, he sees you enjoying it every day and feels a connection with you through your daily use of it, and enjoys hearing that you appreciate him.

Do not forget to take care of yourself and manage your own stress. This is so very important.


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## dillonandmarasmom (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jackson'smama* 
i do want to point this out for analysis. the other day, i had my sewing box out and he and little bro were playing with material swatches, buttons, etc...oldest ended up pinning to quilt squares together and covering the pins with duct tape and giving it to me. i use it faithfully every day to sit my drinks on throughout the day. he is SO PROUD of making that for me and will frequently ask "were you happy that i made that for you?" it makes me sad but i wonder if he's thinking "well, at least that's one thing i've done to make mommy happy". am i right in my analysis of it? if so, i'm in big trouble in the mothering dept. ugh, i feel like a loser.









Don't beat yourself up! This was/is a great thing!! He is telling you that YOUR happiness is important to him. Go with that. Show him how happy you are when he does something good. IME that is what truly makes the difference. You can do rewards, too, fine. But, model how wonderful it feels to receive something, too.

Awesome job, mama!


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## Adasmommy (Feb 26, 2005)

Something that works well with my dd (5) and can be done also, is that when she wants something (Can I have a popsicle? I want to watch a movie. Etc), I say, "Okay, just bring your dishes into the kitchen." Or, "Clean up the puzzle you were working on while I get the popsicle."

If she doesn't want to, or is "too tired," I point out that I will be happy to put on the movie while she does the job, and when the job is done, she will get what she wants. But always friendly and if she chooses not to, fine. I cheerfully continue what I was doing without putting on the movie.

That was my thought when you said he "didn't care" about the reward!

I know this doesn't specifically reward kindness, but I find that when she contributes a little--does some things for me in exchange for my doing things for her--then she is all over more kind and nice to be around. Being in a situation where people do things for you and you offer nothing in return is kind of crappy and can turn a person rude, I think.


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