# Loved my intrathecal! No natural childbirth for me EVER again!



## mamasaurus (Jun 20, 2004)

After delivering my second child on February 13th in the hospital with an intrathecal that took away all the pain, I will never, ever have a natural childbirth again.

My first child was born at home, a waterbirth with two midwives and a doula. I was in excruciating pain the whole time, screaming, wanting to die, the midwives and doula barely able to do anything to help me other than say, "Your doing a GREAT job! Your body is designed to do this! Breathe! Relax!"

YEAH, RIGHT!!!!









I feel that I got duped by the natural childbirth community in my area. They all said I could do a homebirth and it would be fine and they would help me handle the pain.

NO WAY! The $2600 I pain them was money down the drain.

I am definitely one of those women who has horrible childbirth pains, no two ways about it. I should not have even been trying to have a natural childbirth at home for the first baby! I could have tried in the hospital and had the intrathecal available to me if needed.

I learned my lesson.

My OB was fabulous and the nurses were great.

My new doula (NOT the one at the first birth) was great - very open to whatever I needed. My doula had never witnessed an intrathecal before. She said I was the worst case she ever dealt with as far as pain. I did have some horrible birth pains for 15 minutes in the hospital right before the intrathecal was administered. I was climbing the walls.

After the intrathecal, I couldn't feel anything for pushing, but my OB guided me through. I could see the delivery in a mirror and my husband and I talked in between contractions. It was a beautiful birth with us happily watching our daughter being born. I cried that my first child's natural birth had to be so violent.

My doula was very happy for me that the intrathecal worked so well. She said she learned a lot with me and seeing how much meds helped me really altered her thinking about natural childbirth as the only way.

So, just had to post this.

I still like a lot of what is there for me in the natural family living community, but PLEASE do tell women that childbirth can hurt like hell and some women can't take it. All the positive vibes in the world can't change that for some women.


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## Artisan (Aug 24, 2002)

I'm sorry you had such a traumatic first birth, and am glad this was a better experience for you.


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## huggerwocky (Jun 21, 2004)

What is an intrathecal?


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## gottaknit (Apr 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamasaurus*
PLEASE do tell women that childbirth can hurt like hell and some women can't take it.

I'm curious what you mean by this. Please define "can't take it". What happens if a woman "can't take it"? Thanks.


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## AmandaBL (Aug 3, 2004)

just when the don't feed the troll icon dissapears.....


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## Oh the Irony (Dec 14, 2003)

:


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## Tummy (Feb 24, 2005)

:


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## Oh the Irony (Dec 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamasaurus*
I feel that I got duped by the natural childbirth community in my area. They all said I could do a homebirth and it would be fine and they would help me handle the pain.

NO WAY! The $2600 I pain them was money down the drain.

duped, eh? you did it. you survived to have another pregnancy. the $2600 dollars got you your first baby, so i hardly consider it money down the drain.

i don't have a problem with people choosing pain relief if they need it, but this seems like an odd place to be gleeful about it. do you know what i mean? i'm really not trying to be nasty.

the knowledge that childbirth _can_ hurt like hell is already
part of the american psyche. you did have the option at any time during your homebirth to transport to a hospital for medication. blaming it on the "natural childbirth community" just makes it sound like a conspiracy.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

So sorry that natural childbirth did not work out for you.

But it does for some of us.... please don't trash our choices, either.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

just when the don't feed the troll icon dissapears.....
If you want to find out if someone is a troll, click on their username and select "read other posts by user." She doesn't sound like a troll. She sounds like she had a bad first birth.


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## AmandaBL (Aug 3, 2004)

just seems mighty out of place


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *huggerwocky*
What is an intrathecal?









I didn't know either, so I did some research, I think it's the same thing as a walking epidural, which is better for the baby than a regular epidural.

http://www.childbirth.org/articles/walkingepi.html

I think??? or maybe it's something else, I couldn't find much on it...


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

If she couldn't feel to push then it doesn't sound like a walking epi to me.









It does seem like a strange thing to post at a place like MDC. I think we all know that childbirth is painful and I personally hate posts that say something like "I have really painful contractions" because it seems to imply that mine aren't or that those of us who manage to come through natural childbirth feeling positively about it didn't have difficult labors or experience pain.


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## Yummymummy74 (Jun 7, 2004)

As a person who has walked both sides of the fence can we discuss the fact that you might have potentially harmed your newborn child with the narcotics used in these epidurals? I see a WORLD of difference between my homeborn undrugged UC baby than my induction epidural baby...










This IS a bizarre place to post about this .. its pretty simple your a woman you have a uterus you got pregnant.. you CAN do it.

I am convinced pain is caused by attendants anyhow..







I had next to none my last birth.


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## Mom2baldie (Oct 29, 2002)

It doesnt really seem that she is trashing anyones choices... I think she is only sharing her experiences.

I had a homebirth 6 months ago, had a horrible time pushing, got very little support and afterwards was very disappointed. I didnt even want to think about the birth for at least a week. Most people here DO make it sound like homebirth/nat. childbirth is always an amazing experience, which is just not always the case.

She found something that worked for her and should be congratulated. Everyone deserves to be proud of their birthing experiences, not just homebirthers...


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmuma*
I see a WORLD of difference between my homeborn undrugged UC baby than my induction epidural baby...









Can you elaborate on the differences? Maybe start a spin-off thread? I have had one epidural birth, one homebirth and there were some differences for me too. I'm wondering if ours coincide.

I loved my homebirth and found it a positive, empowering experience, but I have to admit my first thought when it was over was this euphoric, "Thank God I never have to do this again!" After some time had passed, I decided I could handle it again, but I'm not feeling any desire to have a third pregnancy and birth experience. OK, sometimes I miss being pregnant, but I'm pretty happy we are done. Although sometimes a small voice in me thinks, "maybe I could have a waterbirth and no stitches this time. Let's give it a shot!" :LOL


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## ashleep (Jul 20, 2004)

I am sorry you had a bad first birth, and I'm very happy that your second was better.

Quote:

I feel that I got duped by the natural childbirth community in my area. They all said I could do a homebirth and it would be fine and they would help me handle the pain.
But it irritates me that you seem to be blaming this bad experience on 'the natural childbirth community'. Yes, some women have incredibly painful labors and there's no way to know in advance. And sometimes no amount of labor support can make it any better. But YOU chose to birth at home, and at any time YOU could have said enough's enough, get me to a hospital. I don't understand how you 'got duped'.







I hope this doesn't sound mean. It just sounds like you're trying to blame someone and that bothers me. (Unless there are reasons you didn't mention as to why you got duped, but I am left to assume there aren't) It really bothers me when people don't take responsibility for their choices.

Quote:

PLEASE do tell women that childbirth can hurt like hell and some women can't take it. All the positive vibes in the world can't change that for some women.
.

You're right, some women can't take it and I'm glad that medication is available for those that need it. But I agree with AmandaBL that this just doesn't seem like the place to post this.

I am very happy that you were able to enjoy your 2nd birth, and congratulations on your new baby.


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## JesseMomme (Apr 6, 2002)

:


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

We all come to birth with different perspectives, expectations, emotions, etc. What one woman sees as suffering another may see as challenge- no one should force themselves to do something they view as masochistic or tormenting- I could see how someone would feel just as violated at home as in the hospital if they perceive the pain as unnecessary torment.

I personally just had my baby 2 weeks ago at home and I can honestly say that I was in PAIN- water broke, then intense contractions starting coming only 1-2 minutes apart lasting 50 seconds each. This lasted for 17 hours- my cervix never dilated fully (due to scar tissue) so I had to push the baby past it- I thought I was going to die- this wasn't the peaceful, mellow homebirth I had envisioned at all.

BUT- for me I would still never have a baby in the hospital. I felt so empowered by the experience and so in love with my fiance and so grateful to my midwives for supporting me so well- fixing the birth pool for me, putting cold cloths on my face, reminding me of the strength I had inside me that I had forgotten after feeling so weak from 18 hours of intense labor.

Yes there were points in the labor where I thought "I will never do this again! This is nuts!" There were points where I felt like I had put too much faith in myself and I really wasn't strong enough to do this. There was even a point where my midwife suggested we go to the hospital and get some meds because I had such an intense labor.

BUT- I'm so glad I did it at home! The memory of the pain faded into oblivion as I cuddled with my son in my own bed surrounded by people who cared for me and I didn't have to worry about taking my son for "exams" or vaccinating him, etc. I felt so empowered by what I had just accomplished- like I had climbed a mountain even though my leg was broken or something. My fiance was in awe of what I had just done. My baby was alert and I knew he had never had any drugs in his system. I didn't tear and 2 weeks later feel amazing!

Even though the pain was excruciating I am so glad that I was at home and didn't have access to pain medication I wanted so badly at the time- because now I know how strong I really am- I learned so much- and I would never trade that experience for anything. Had I been in the hospital I would have had the epidural and I wouldn't know if I could have done it on my own or not.

This is MY experience- I think this represents the wide range of experiences women can have regarding birth and our perceptions of our own birth experiences.

There is nothing wrong with wanting or having pain medication- no one should feel "better" or worse than someone else for having or not having it- but for me no amount of pain would make me trade homebirth for hospital birth.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Well I had natural childbirth - 47 hour labour, planned homebirth transferred to hospital, but didn't end up with any interventions. And I don't know if it hurt as much as the OP's, but I can tell you it HURT LIKE







. Unimaginable pain, I didn't think I could endure or survive it.

And I would do it again in a heartbeat. Just the sheer exhilaration of giving birth, how incredibly high I was, higher than I've ever been in my life, and meeting my little girl in that state was absolute bliss. Natural childbirth has had a tremendously positive impact on how I view the strength of my spirit and the miraculous power of my body. I wouldn't trade the experience for anything, and I encourage other women to at least learn about and consider it, becuase it is the most out of this world primal crazy raw woman mama power I have ever felt.

AND it's not for everybody. If that's not your scene by all means get an epidural or whatever you need. Women are absolutely entitled to whatever it is we need during childbirth. This is what taking back birth is all about.

I wanted to add that I too was pretty cheesed off at Ina May Gaskin and her "orgasmic birth," "if it hurts you're just not opening to it" vibe. I believed the things she wrote, and was convinced I would be experiencing orgasmic ecstasy while in labour.







Thanks a lot Ina May. For me I really would have preferred to be appropriately warned about the amount of pain that is possible.


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

I think the point here is that women should make the right decisions for themselves. It is traumatic when a woman is pressured into something she doesn't really want, especially during labor. My decision to go unmedicated with my second birth had absolutely nothing to do with pain. It was all about avoiding another cesarean. I knew good and well that if I were to step foot in a hospital, they would figure out some way of talking me into interventions I didn't want, and those interventions would lead to more interventions and I would get cut open again, possibly unecessarily. I wasn't going to let that happen. I wasn't going to do anything that might possibly increase my chances of having another cesarean.

As it was, my labor didn't hurt, relatively speaking. I have worse menstrual cramps than my labor contractions were. What did hurt was pushing past a swollen cervical lip, but by that point even had I wanted any pain meds it would have been too late for them. We all have different experiences and different needs during childbirth. Empowerment means having those needs met, in whatever way suits each one of us best.


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## Black Orchid (Mar 28, 2005)

I can really relate to the OP, although I really REALLY hope that I can have a natural birth with the next baby. I tried, I really did... but after 3 days of back labor and just terrible, horrible contractions I broke down and asked for an epidural... and I felt so freaking guilty about it. I blamed all of the subsequent problems she had (jaundice, nursing issues, colic, reflux) on myself for having an epi







Lemme tell ya, that is NOT a good way to spend your PP days and doesn't help avoid PPD.

Everything that I had been taught about the natural birth experience just relied on the fact that I would be abel to breathe and focus and I just couldn't. I tried so hard, I had help and I just could not. And it made me feel so crappy afterwards to have succymb... about myself as a woman and as a mother exposing my DD to the drugs







But I just couldn't go anymore.

Anyway, I agree that this post seems to be more about being able to make a choice that is right for your body. And instead of presenting anything other than natural as a shortcoming of the mother, understanding that everyone's body reacts differently to labor and pain and some just cannot do it no matter what.

But I am praying so hard that I can find the right method for me and do it naturally next time!


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## Belleweather (Nov 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
I wanted to add that I too was pretty cheesed off at Ina May Gaskin and her "orgasmic birth," "if it hurts you're just not opening to it" vibe. I believed the things she wrote, and was convinced I would be experiencing orgasmic ecstasy while in labour.







Thanks a lot Ina May. For me I really would have preferred to be appropriately warned about the amount of pain that is possible.

I totally agree. I think that the only sane way to go into an undrugged birthing experience is with the understand that it's going to hurt like nothing else in the world. I mean, streaching any other part of your body to it's limits hurts, why would you expect your yoni to be different? I just can't imagine expecting 'mellow and peaceful', from something that when you take it down to brass tacks is all about pushing something the size of a watermelon out of a hole the size of a kiwi!


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Yeah not a big fan of the whole birth orgasm line of stuff. Maybe the occasional woman has that but most women I know even those who had natural birth and loved it will at least talk about discomfort. No one's talking about orgasm!

As for having attendants causing the pain I can't say I agree with that. I labored by myself for most of my labor with #3. When it reached the point that I couldn't do it alone any more I called DH in. Not long after that we headed for the hospital. So for 10 hours of my 13 hour labor I had no medical attendants but I still had plenty of pain.


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## gurumama (Oct 6, 2002)

I had one medicated hospital birth, and one unmedicated hospital birth. I would never try to tell someone else that MY experiences would be theirs.

For the OP--I'm glad you had a positive birth experience. As for being "duped", each person makes their own choices about birth. I'm sorry that your choices led to that feeling.


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## ramlita (Mar 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mom2baldie*
Everyone deserves to be proud of their birthing experiences, not just homebirthers...

Yep!
And I can't help but point out, you DID take it, OP-
plenty of women transfer to the hospital for pain relief.

We do what we can with what we have.
We make our own decisions based not only on the information we have, but also our life experience.

I am glad you are happy with your birth. As for the information that childbirth is very painful for most women, and that there are drugs for that pain, well... it's safe to say, the word is already out.


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## mandib50 (Oct 26, 2004)

i think it is very sad the op had a terrible homebirth experience. no women should have to have a terrible birth period. i would wonder if she didn't receive good support from her midwife or if it was a bad midwife/client match or if there was something that happened aside from the pain that made it so terrible. i get the sense that there may have been to high an expectation on the midwives to take the pain away and perhaps not enough belief in her ability to trust herself to handle it.

i believe in natural birth. i believe we were all made to be able to "take it". now, whether or not we wish to or want to or believe we're able to, that's a different story. to each her own. obviously birth is largely psychological and emotional, not just physical and pain is subjective based on many factors. i don't think that natural childbirthers generally say that childbirth isn't painful, i mean for most of us it really is. frankly i wish birth could've been orgasmic for me but i found each time more painful!!

oh well, back to nursing my little guy,
mandi


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## pamamidwife (May 7, 2003)

What I'm getting from this thread, and from her other posts is more about how angry and hurt she is about her first birth experience. This thread is not really about epidurals or even about THIS birth, I'm figuring. In my eyes, as someone who recovered from a traumatic birth, this is an extension of her frustration with her first birth. The adament "no natural childbirth for me EVER" tone is really more about the intensity by which she felt betrayed and assaulted with her first birth.

Anyway, I think it's interesting that she posted this thread here, but I think the thread has less to do with singing the praises of epidurals, but more about how the lack of feeling anything during her birth was better than the assault she felt with her first birth. Just from reading her post, it really seems that she's still really angry about her first birth.

I also think this could be a safe space to vent those frustrations.


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## AmandaBL (Aug 3, 2004)

I find it interesting she hasn't posted back & we're sitting around here debating the merits of the post. I just hate seeing these posts here. I also hate the "I really tried to breastfeed, but......







" posts too. Not saying it doesn't happen, but there are PLENTY of places to post that - the NATURAL family living board probably isn't it. Elective hospitalization is not natural. Posting something along the lines of "my birth sucked - help me figure out what happened?" is one thing. "YEA for pain medication & elective intervention - PLEASE tell your friends" is another.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamasaurus*
After the intrathecal, *I couldn't feel anything for pushing*, but my OB guided me through. I could see the delivery in a mirror and my husband and I talked in between contractions. It was a beautiful birth with us happily watching our daughter being born. I cried that my first child's natural birth had to be so violent.

I'm glad this worked out for you. I hated the epidural I had for exactly this reason, that I couldn't feel to push. I wouldn't recommend it, myself. It took me 8 hours at the pushing stage, pretty much only because I couldn't feel the contractions.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

I just hate seeing these posts here. I also hate the "I really tried to breastfeed, but...... " posts too. Not saying it doesn't happen, but there are PLENTY of places to post that - the NATURAL family living board probably isn't it. Elective hospitalization is not natural. Posting something along the lines of "my birth sucked - help me figure out what happened?" is one thing. "YEA for pain medication & elective intervention - PLEASE tell your friends" is another.
I am sorry the OP had a bad experience with her first birth, but I completely agree with the above statement. It would be similar to posting in the diapering board:

NO crappy cloth diapers for me ANYMORE! Disposable ALL THE WAY!!!!

Yes, some women choose disposable and that is okay if that is their choice, and there is a huge difference between asking for some help or sharing experiences-- i.e. "we use cloth but always have blowouts at night so we have been using disposables, what else do you recommend?" ...as opposed to how fantastic disposables are.

That is how I took it anyway.


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## KayleeZoo (Apr 8, 2003)

mamasaurus, I'm so glad your recent birth experience was a positive one. I, too, would describe my hospital births (complete with epidurals) as beautiful and very positive.


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

I am definitely one of those women who has horrible childbirth pains, no two ways about it.
Actually I think it pretty much hurts all women... childbirth is painful.

I'm glad your choices worked for you... that is what lief is all about, experiencing and learning. Many of us here went the opposite way, but to each their own.


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pamamidwife*
What I'm getting from this thread, and from her other posts is more about how angry and hurt she is about her first birth experience. This thread is not really about epidurals or even about THIS birth, I'm figuring. In my eyes, as someone who recovered from a traumatic birth, this is an extension of her frustration with her first birth. The adament "no natural childbirth for me EVER" tone is really more about the intensity by which she felt betrayed and assaulted with her first birth.

Anyway, I think it's interesting that she posted this thread here, but I think the thread has less to do with singing the praises of epidurals, but more about how the lack of feeling anything during her birth was better than the assault she felt with her first birth. Just from reading her post, it really seems that she's still really angry about her first birth.

I also think this could be a safe space to vent those frustrations.


Beautifully said!


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## Simply Nurtured (Nov 6, 2004)

I am in support of women's choices during birth, whatever they may be. Most of the mama's who request my presence as a doula, do so because they know I experienced unmedicated birth in the hospital and their goal is the same.

But if medication is a birthing mother's choice, then that is up to her, not me. She does not have to be "me", so I am ok with that.










I am unafraid of birth, but I personally am very afraid of needles. I could not even imagine an epidural/spinal needle, I am more afraid of that than the back labor discomfort I have experienced...

So I am thankful that my intentions and choices for birth were respected and all needles were kept far, far away from me.


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## hubris (Mar 8, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmuma*
This IS a bizarre place to post about this .. its pretty simple your a woman you have a uterus you got pregnant.. you CAN do it.

I am convinced pain is caused by attendants anyhow..







I had next to none my last birth.

I'll agree that this is a surprising place to find a post with this tone, but Marsupialmuma, I think that the OP has a point about the attitudes of the NCB "community." Or rather, of a few members of that community. The contention that all pain in childbirth is created by attendants, or that birth isn't painful (or shouldn't be if you do it "right"), or that all of us are capable of achieving a natural birth, is a little heavy-handed and dismissive, and ultimately hurts people more than helps them.

While you may not have felt pain during your last birth, that does not mean that pain is not normal during birth. Our perception of pain, tolerance for it, ability to endure it, coping mechanisms for it, are all shaped by our past experiences, cultural context, personalities, etc etc. But that doesn't mean that pain doesn't exist, only that our experience of it can be shaped in different ways. I definitely perceived pain during my birth, caused by nobody but the baby who was ready to come out and my own body







, but I knew what was happening and why, I instinctively found ways to minimize my pain and cope with it, and ultimately, I knew that it was a good, useful pain that would guide me through birth and that I did not need medication. I also knew that medication would probably adversely affect my baby and myself.

I wish that instead of debating whether or not birth is painful, we invited women to evaluate their own experiences/beliefs/attitudes with/about pain and we discussed what birth pain is and how it is different from other types of pain, like pain related to infection, injury, surgery. Birth pain, for the majority who experience it, is a physiological pain caused by our body doing a normal thing, and can be useful to us in labor. The other types of pain, with which most of us have much more experience and which shape our culture's approach to pain in general, are pathological forms of pain, they tell us that something is wrong with our body.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

"No more intact baby boys for me! Circ w/o anesthesia for the next one!"
"Guess what - I spanked, and no more problems!"
"I'm getting an episiotomy to please my dh"
"CIO and proud of it!"
"These boobs are for dh only; I don't want to breastfeed and turn my kids gay!"

Just a few examples of things I would not post at MDC. This user doesn't sound like a troll, but what are we supposed to get out of this? I mean, we all know birth hurts and there are drugs available. Just a few more thoughts:

1. No one "duped you." Childbirth is so painful it cannot be described. It was so much more painful than I possibly imagined, than anyone explained to me. There are no words. Yet I don't believe everyone somehow kept something from me.

2. Before the birth of #1, I read Laura Shanley and everyone else telling me that birth only hurts if you believe it will and that it can in fact be orgasmic. Not so for me. I read that, believed it wasn't going to hurt, and it hurt anyway. Not the book's fault, not my fault. It just hurt.

3. EVERYONE can "take it" if they have to. If there were no painkilling medication invented, women would still have babies if they wanted them no matter how bad the pain got. Maybe some would pass out from the pain, but they would still have babies because once you are pregnant there is no other way out.

4. It's possible your attendants did things that made the pain worse, but who knows. After my hospital birth, I had a list of all the things I had done wrong that made my labor long and difficult. I figured the next time I gave birth I would just not do those things. (Things like spend so much time lying in bed, agree to AROM, etc.) Well, at my homebirth I did everything "right" and it was still long and hard. I think it was actually worse in some ways! I guess for me, birth is just not going to come easy.


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

I'm glad things went better for you this time as well! My goal next time is to make it completely drug free. My first birth was an awful induction w/ an epi that didn't work and then worked too well that I felt nothing during pushing. I ended up having a c/s for a malpositioned baby. I recently had a VBAC and only had an epi (I could still feel to push etc and it was MUCH better than my other epi) for the last 1.5 hrs of my 12 hr labor. I now know I can do it (which you did too, but obviously didn't enjoy) and will do it next time! I hope to have better financial circumstances next time though and hire a doula as well. I guess this just goes to show how different everyone is. I know moms who were thrilled about never having to labor and delivery vaginally, but my c/s was a HUGE disappointment and very sad for me for quite a while.


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## Tummy (Feb 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Viola*
Can you elaborate on the differences? Maybe start a spin-off thread? I have had one epidural birth, one homebirth and there were some differences for me too. I'm wondering if ours coincide.

I loved my homebirth and found it a positive, empowering experience, but I have to admit my first thought when it was over was this euphoric, "Thank God I never have to do this again!" After some time had passed, I decided I could handle it again, but I'm not feeling any desire to have a third pregnancy and birth experience. OK, sometimes I miss being pregnant, but I'm pretty happy we are done. Although sometimes a small voice in me thinks, "maybe I could have a waterbirth and no stitches this time. Let's give it a shot!" :LOL

I agree with both of you... I have had a c/s at 10cm, induction with three drugs/epidural/pushing for 3 hours/4degree cut/vaccum, hosp-bac, and two hbac. NEVER EVER EVER EVER again would I EVER get another epidural or birth in a hosp setting!!!! (must say my second vbac at hosp was a great healing experience from the first vbac!)


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Belleweather*
I totally agree. I think that the only sane way to go into an undrugged birthing experience is with the understand that it's going to hurt like nothing else in the world. I mean, streaching any other part of your body to it's limits hurts, why would you expect your yoni to be different? I just can't imagine expecting 'mellow and peaceful', from something that when you take it down to brass tacks is all about pushing something the size of a watermelon out of a hole the size of a kiwi!

I agree with you that the only way to go in is to expect that it likely will hurt like nothing else in the world. I wanted to clarify tho, that for me, it wasn't the actual crowning, or the baby the size of a watermelon coming out a hole the size of a kiwi! (Hilarious analogy btw :LOL ) It was the contractions... it started getting ugly at about 3 cms dilated, and transition was unbelievably painful. But the pushing was much much better, and altho I anticipated crowning with dread, for me it didn't hurt a bit. I *felt* the ripping of my vagina, but more the pressure of it, not pain. For some women pushing is harder, but for many it is easier, than transition.

I wanted to clarify because I noticed you are expecting, and if you are in transition thinking "I cant do this and it only gets worse" remember that pushing may well be easier.


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## wednesday (Apr 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
I wanted to clarify because I noticed you are expecting, and if you are in transition thinking "I cant do this and it only gets worse" remember that pushing may well be easier.









That was absolutely my experience as well. Dilating and transition were pretty painful. Pushing took a long time, but didn't hurt. Crowning and delivering didn't hurt at all. I can remember the midwife saying something to me about "that burning will be over really soon" when DS was crowning and I didn't know what on earth she was talking about. I felt fine.


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## 2+twins (Apr 20, 2004)

I'm really sorry for the OP that she had such a miserable experience. I can understand how someone might feel duped by the ncb community when we praise the experience of birth so much. I agree with Pam that it sounds more like she needs to vent about the bad birth experience and work through those emotions. She's probably seeking validation that it *did* suck for her and that her negative feelings about the birth are okay to have. I find it difficult when talking to a first time pregnant mom about the pain of labor. On the one hand, I don't want her to think that it's a walk in the park. On the other, I don't want to terrify the bejesus out of her and immediately send her straight to the OR for an elective scheduled c-section. So what do you do? I never feel that the pain of birth isn't discussed here on these particular boards, but sometimes it's described as exhilarating, a rush, and yes even orgasmic. And I've definitely heard some claim that if you don't fear it it doesn't hurt (I believe not fearing it makes you not ADD unnecessary pain, but does not remove the pain). And while I agree that "management" of attendants *could* lead to more discomfort or pain, birth w/o one certainly doesn't take it away (I can attest to that first hand). Someone else posted that the OP always could have transferred at any time to the hospital for pain meds. That's very true, but in her defense (and this is only theoretical cuz I have no idea what she knew about this) she may not have known this. I know it *seems* obvious, but I can tell you - and maybe I'm just slow on the uptake - that it never ONCE occured to more, nor was it discussed with me by ANYONE, during either of my pregnancies or births, that one of the reasons for transfer to a hospital would be the mother's desire for pain meds (in other words, that this was an option). Never once did that thought enter my head. Not because it doesn't make sense, but I suppose I only looked into "medically necessary" reasons for transfer. There was a list, ya know? True fetal distress, prolapse cord, etc. Not "mom wants pain meds". And would you really think that a homebirth support team is going to suggest to her that she transfer for pain meds? I kind of doubt it. Anyway, I just thought that I'd share my personal experience about that. I *only* first heard of moms transferring for pain meds after I started reading the boards here at MDC.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

And would you really think that a homebirth support team is going to suggest to her that she transfer for pain meds?
I don't think this is something a midwife would suggest, but I was seeing a midwife before I discovered MDC and she told me that some of her clients did transfer for pain meds. I also know a few women who attempted a homebirth and transferred for pain meds.

There were times during my homebirth that I wondered, out loud, if I should be in the hospital. My midwives did tell me that I could do whatever I wanted, but never suggested it. There's a difference between an intervention that would make the birth be over sooner or make things easier for mom and an intervention that is a medically necessary procedure. Of course if it's not absolutely necessary they are not going to suggest a transfer.


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

Quote:

And would you really think that a homebirth support team is going to suggest to her that she transfer for pain meds?
Yes, I do think that a homebirth support team may suggest transferring for pain meds in a couple of situations. All of them outside the scope of liscensed midwifery, but none of them for emergent situations. I was at a homebirth where after 4 days of labor there was no change in dialation. None. When I spoke to my husband as we were transferring, and he asked what best case scenario would be, all I could think was, "Epidural, so she can rest." She NEEDED pain relief.

Greaseball said a little while back that EVERYONE can birth without pain meds, and theoretically it's true. Unfortunately when everyone was birthing without pain meds more women died in childbirth. I don't necessarily think that the pain was the reason (







) but the pain can contribute to exhaustion which women *can* (and probably did) die from. I'm remembering Red Tent...

I think the goal is not to birth as someone else would birth, but to birth how you need to birth. The problem with that is that often we cannot discover how we need to birth until it's happening, and then, especially in a hospital, it's too late to stop the birth machine without a major fight.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

How can you die from exhaustion? The only danger I could see is dehydration.


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

I do not know the physiology or pathology behind what makes a person die of exhaustion, but I do not think it exclusively has to do with hydration. I can imagine that eventually, a woman who has been in the midst of birthing a baby for days, without rest, without respite, would not be in prime physical condition. It would affect every system in her body, eventually, and maybe overcome her. I can venture a guess that it would probably be cardiac in nature.


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## CaraboosMama (Mar 31, 2005)

As a newbie to this site I was really surprised to read the title of the OP. I had the opposite experience...I had hoped to deliver w/o pain medication...but then after 4 weeks of staving off pre-term labor, my water broke & then...no regular contractions! I finally consented to induction after trying some natural methods & I really wish I hadn't. Overall, my birth experience wasn't "BAD" (I have my beautiful daugher to show for it, after all!) but I felt like I wasn't as "present" in the whole thing as I could have been. Thankfully no complications from the intrathecal (no tearing, no problems for dd) but I hope to do a homebirth the next time.


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

AmandaBL, I really hope this dosen't come across as rude - as I would say this to you IRL and I am very unconfrontational but:

How would you feel if you had problems like an unnatural childbirth, can't breastfeed, cloth dipes breaking your babe out or some other 'unnatural' thing and everyone at MDC who you came to love and view as friends told YOU to go to Babycenter because "Its just not natural family living" and there was this more NATURAL way to do things but you didn't do it..
To babycenter you go...
Could be pretty hurtful.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
How can you die from exhaustion? The only danger I could see is dehydration.

I got transferred after 40+ hours of labour, 7 hours stalled at 6 cm. I dilated and didn't get the epi, but things could easily have gone the other way.

The danger is exhaustion + dehydration = mama unable to get baby out, fetal distress. And the mama is a living, breathing person who might not want to spend endless hours exhausted and dehydrating.


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## ramlita (Mar 26, 2002)

-Well said, Darsmama! I don't see value in reflexively ostracizing people who have differing experiences/opinions from the 'norm,' whatever that may be.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
How can you die from exhaustion?

-I was also thinking that working the uterus too hard for too long, especially for a woman already in poor health, can mean that it won't clamp down well after the baby is out, so too much blood can be lost.
I'd think it would be very rare these days.

-Can I ask those of you who have had fast labors, was the pain more overwhelming than with your other labors?


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## 2+twins (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramlah*
Can I ask those of you who have had fast labors, was the pain more overwhelming than with your other labors?

Holy crap yes! First labor (almost 10 hours) - except for the pushing stage which I personally found horrendous - I felt like I could do it again and again. That's not to say that it felt *good* but I could stay on top of the pain - I could imagine worse pain than that. Like if I only had to deal with one or two of those contrax, it wouldn't have been any big deal - it's just the sheer endlessness of them that made them hard. 2nd labor was 90 minutes from first contrax to birth and it was miserably painful. I don't know if I could imagine pain worse than that* - even if I was only dealt one of those contrax vs. many. It was intense, indescribable pain. Really REALLY bad. Pushing felt equally awful as the first time around, except that it was really fast vs. the 4 hours it took with the first. Sensation of tearing upwards wasn't pleasant though (2nd birth) and was quiet unexpected.

*Except perhaps the almost equally painful afterbirth contrax coupled with the nauseating & excruciating pain which would occur everytime dd would latch onto my raw and bleeding nipples.


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## Moon Faerie (Aug 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramlah*
Can I ask those of you who have had fast labors, was the pain more overwhelming than with your other labors?

OMG, YES! DS was about 26 hours of active labor, 3 pushing. The only really hard part was transition. I was exhausted during pushing, but not really in pain. With dd, I was in early labor for about 12 hours, but it wasn't really a bother. Once active labor hit, it was only 1.5 hours until she was born. It was hands down the most painful difficult thing ever.
Everyone says how lucky I was to have a quick labor, but I have to disagree. My labor with ds was much easier to handle, and I hadn't prepared for NCB at all. I had planned on an epidural the entire time. It didn't work though. I ended up with pitocin. Even with pit, it was much less intense than labor with dd.


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## ramlita (Mar 26, 2002)

Makes sense!
I mention it because I saw on another thread that OP had about a five hour labor with her first baby... (mods-is that appropriate to mention?)


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## pamamidwife (May 7, 2003)

just to be clear: women that died in childbirth years ago usually did so for three main reasons:

one - baby in an undeliverable position. labor goes on and on and on, baby is "stuck", mom's uterus eventually, after days and days, ruptures. mom and baby dies.

two - postpartum hemorrhage

three - infection

while it's not uncommon to think that an exhausted uterus is one that does not contract effectively, i don't think that pain caused deaths. i would also venture to say that we are a culture of people that avoid pain at all costs, people that whine alot about pain, people who want to be martyrs, and people that want to "one up" others about their suffering. this is true. i've seen women from other cultures birth and it's VERY different. we don't think we deserve to be in pain in our culture. we take pills for EVERYTHING.

so, hundreds of years ago, it was very different. women just birthed. there was no martyrdom that came from how great your pain is. you just did it. this attitude probably allowed many women not to FEAR birth as much as it is here in this country.

not to mention the fact that women who are sexually abused will oftentimes have more traumatic dealings with birth because of their abuse. some find natural birth empowering, others feel like they're being victimized all over again.

and, yep, I find it funny that while this poster is not a "troll", that we're creating so much hoopla over her post....and she's not around (or maybe she is!) to enjoy it.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

My second labor wasn't fast, but it was shorter than the first and I think the pain was more intense because it started with rupture of membranes, and contractions were 2 minutes apart from then on. With #1, it was really long and drawn out but ctx were as much as 15 minutes apart.


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Re pushing I'd heard a lot about how good pushing would feel. When I finally could push oh wow it was worse than my back labor. Now I think I was in an awful position and had no urge to push but my god the ring of fire just lasted forever and ever. It was the longest 17 minutes of my life. I couldn't believe it when they told me that was all it had been. I think just as with almost everything else in labor YMMV.


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## ramlita (Mar 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wasabi*
Re pushing I'd heard a lot about how good pushing would feel. When I finally could push oh wow...

Me too! It turns out, I was in a terrible position, too- I pushed for four hours, not getting anywhere, and it was unspeakably, shockingly painful the whole time. Since I'd always heard that pushing is a relief, that it feels good, etc, I was sure something was terribly terribly wrong.







And in that position, any little progress I made felt like I was being torn to shreds everywhere: throughout my uterus, birth canal, AND vulva.







I thought all of those parts were being irrevocably ruined.
(This from someone who completely trusted/trusts birth, who went into it with very little fear, but expecting the worst pain of my life -and that's saying something!)

When I finally got more upright, pushing did finally feel great! No pain, and I could feel significant progress. The crowning was certainly no fun, but...

I remember having such a deep worry from the pain-while-pushing, when the midwife put DD on my chest, I asked if it was okay to touch her! I was afraid her clavicles had been broken, or some other major trauma, since it took such work to get her out.








She was completely fine (just huge!) it was just a matter of being in the right position. Maddening to look back on.


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## homebirthing (Nov 10, 2002)

pamamidwife said:


> while it's not uncommon to think that an exhausted uterus is one that does not contract effectively, i don't think that pain caused deaths. i would also venture to say that we are a culture of people that avoid pain at all costs, people that whine alot about pain, people who want to be martyrs, and people that want to "one up" others about their suffering. this is true. i've seen women from other cultures birth and it's VERY different. we don't think we deserve to be in pain in our culture. we take pills for EVERYTHING.
> 
> 
> > So true!!!
> ...


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

I had two wonderful epidural hospital births. I think that for some women it is the right choice, and I often post here encouraging women who do hospital births to know all their options and to feel empowered in that setting.

However this board is a place that, in the spirit of MDC, promotes natural choices over medical intervention. The epidural has a lot of risks. It would be like me going to the bfing forum and starting a thread on how great formula feeding is. It just doesn't make sense here at MDC.


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## AmandaBL (Aug 3, 2004)

My point was that it is an odd post on this type of forum to be extolling the virtues of something that this forum isn't really about. We all know what happens to the "CIO works so well!" posts. To me it's the same thing. Epidurals & CIO both "work" technically. They both have numerous "side effects" for lack of a better way to say it. There are so many places... almost all pregnancy/birth sites, boards & even conversations... where the norm is "I love drugs! My OB is awesome! He'll induce you whenever you want & his epidurals are the best - you won't feel a thing!!!" I don't like to see it on here. Doesn't mean it CAN NOT be here - I just don't like it.

And just as a note... I've never had a natural child birth (my birth stories are posted - 2 epidurals - one planned homebirth - no such luck) I dealt with a wicked CD & BF thrush issue and now am only a p/t CDer, I only nursed DS #1 for 8 mo & had quite a few problems with DS#2 who's only 4 mo. BUT I look at those things as half successes, and half failures. I aspire to "natural family living" and in the areas where I miss the mark I want to improve. I certainly would never post on here "Sposies are so light & trim & easy - no CD for me!!!!







" I didn't mean to sound like SHE belonged somewhere else, but the post sure sounded a lot more like that other place than here.


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## Debstmomy (Jun 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pamamidwife*
we don't think we deserve to be in pain in our culture. we take pills for EVERYTHING.

not to mention the fact that women who are sexually abused will oftentimes have more traumatic dealings with birth because of their abuse. some find natural birth empowering, others feel like they're being victimized all over again.

This is what I was thinking exactly! I think that the OP was not really sure of what to expect. Perhaps never having been around birth before, & the way some describe their births, that is what she was expecting. Her expectations were high & her reality was not near them. Also we (most americans) come from the era where Pain=Bad/Negative. There IS a pill for EVERYTHING, and we are bombarded with these images constantly!

I was also thinking something along the lines of abuse in her past as well. (Could be completley wrong) Sensations of birth are incredible & that is why women are so vulnerable during this time. I am sad she did not feel empowered afterward. I am sad that she felt such negative feelings to such a powerful event.


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Ramlah what you're describing is exactly how I felt. I was 100% sure I was tearing horribly into my urinary tract. It's too bad that my only natural *labor* was absolutely my best labor but my 2nd birth which was medicated for last hour or so was hands down my best birth. And like you I was ready to go. Did not fear birth had every confidence in my body--too bad my medwife didn't. It is good to hear that it went better when you were upright. I'm hoping those changes make a big difference with this birth.


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## sugarbeth (Apr 24, 2002)

As a momma who's done it both ways, I can totally understand the OP's point of view.

I wanted a natural childbirth with my first. I was Bradley trained, had a great coach of a husband, great midwives. After 40+ hours of labor and stalling in transition at 9 cm, I ended up with an epidural. For the longest time, I was always so bummed out that I couldn't go the distance after making it so far. I wanted to feel that urge to push, and feel that whoosh as the baby comes out.

So I went for natural childbirth again for my second baby, and it went faster this time and I was able to do it. I had a labor pool, I was in complete control, and silently dealt with my contractions all the way until transition. Then the pain was excruciating. I wanted to claw my way out of my own skin and run away. I never felt that urge to push like I'd always heard about, didn't feel pressure, just overwhelming pain. And when my son came out, all I was thinking about was that the hurting was over. I was beaten and spent. I didn't even want to hold my baby until I felt better.

With my first, I was coherent and euphoric, uncontrollably giddy, and I swept my baby girl up onto my chest and loved on her immediately. With my natural childbirth, I was waaay more out of it and couldn't even bear to hold my son right away.

It really gave me a new perspective on my first birth. I no longer feel sad that I had that epidural. And now I sorta wish that I'd gotten one for my second birth.

Sure, I'm proud of myself for doing it. There's something about knowing that I CAN do it. But I wish that I enjoyed it more. I didn't.

Mommas all experience childbirth differently. Some women's bodies are built to handle delivering with little to no pain. And some of us apparently have way too many dang pain receptors in all the wrong places!

You can't knock a momma down for her own experiences - they're her own, and she's entitled to have an opinion about them. Even on MDC - sure, it's about all things natural, but natural is not always pretty. It's okay to say that.


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## ramlita (Mar 26, 2002)

Wasabi- Thank you! Me too!
I feel like I learned so much from DD's birth, it has really helped me feel more prepared for this one.
I think my new midwife will be a much better match too!

I love to think of a birth where pushing is a pleasant, brief time that leads right to having a baby in my arms!


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CaraboosMama*
As a newbie to this site I was really surprised to read the title of the OP. I had the opposite experience...I had hoped to deliver w/o pain medication...but then after 4 weeks of staving off pre-term labor, my water broke & then...no regular contractions! I finally consented to induction after trying some natural methods & I really wish I hadn't. Overall, my birth experience wasn't "BAD" (I have my beautiful daugher to show for it, after all!) but I felt like I wasn't as "present" in the whole thing as I could have been. Thankfully no complications from the intrathecal (no tearing, no problems for dd) but I hope to do a homebirth the next time.









This was pretty nearly exactly my experience. (I didn't have pre-term labor, just the part about the water breaking and no contractions. Also the part about trying many different natural methods to get labor to start before agreeing to the induction.) I have not been able to find a "natural" answer to what I could have done differently to make labor begin.

I think my birth experience was actually kind of bad. My son was alert at birth but had a lot of trouble latching on, so I went from a very stressful birth to a stressful week with little sleep trying to get nursing started. We were very lucky and are nursing still!

I wonder whether midwives have researched this. We aren't the only people who have had this, even though it's not "normal." I wouldn't mind starting yet another thread about it, even though some of the comments I got the last time were pretty judgemental of me for agreeing to having labor induced. (I did wait 40 hours after the water broke, and as you know, there is quite a strong element of risk involved!) I just wonder how many people here have had this experience.

Sorry to go off topic here.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

I think the OP needs to examine her own reasons for choosing a homebirth in the first place.

The only reason a woman should have a homebirth is because she wants it, no one else.


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## Boobs (Apr 17, 2004)

I had a homebirth on February 13th, too..







... very very painful, but I survived. I did tear though and had to go to the hospital for repair. I had an intrathecal there and it was HEAVEN! Such a relief after so many hours in pain. Those 3 or 4 hours that I was numb from the waist down were such a relief.
I feel the same way the OP feels for the most part. I am very proud of myself for my natural birth, but I wouldn't do it again. My husband wouldn't support my decision to do it again. I think that's what she was getting at. You can still be a great AP mom even if you choose to not labor in pain.


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## KayleeZoo (Apr 8, 2003)

Quote:

You can still be a great AP mom even if you choose to not labor in pain.
ITA.


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

AmandaBL, I see what you are saying I was just pointing out that if this is her 'home' message board then she should be able to post about her birth even if it is mainstream style. I admit the title is a bit uhh trollish...but..


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## theelfqueen (Dec 4, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramlah*
-Can I ask those of you who have had fast labors, was the pain more overwhelming than with your other labors?

I found my fast labor with DS2 (approx 2 hours total) VERY VERY overwhelming -- the contrax came hard and fast, right on top of one another with no break, no predictable pattern, and an evil evil woman telling me to "be quiet, you're scaring people" after she punched more holes than swiss cheese in my arm trying to place an IV, that my CNM and OB had agreed I didn't have to have, then sticking tape that I'm allergic to onto me against my protests.... resulting in welts, swelling and a miserable rash on my arm DURING labor. If it weren't for that woman, I'd probably be hospital birthing this time :LOL And ordering me off the toilet even though that's the only place I could get hold of my labor AT ALL.

But really --even without that evil woman (who was replaced by a much more wonderful nurse after I cursed her sight and ordered her out of presence, never to be seen again) it was HARD, and scary and NOT what I was "prepared" for (by a 10-12 hour back labor with posterior delivery of DS1)


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## 2+twins (Apr 20, 2004)

Pretty OT but that last post made me think of this. I think I'm the only person I've ever heard of who didn't speak negatively of back labor! I've always viewed it (and I'm just speaking for myself here) as a plus. Even right after the birth - yeah I thought the pain was really really hard - but the thing about it for me (which was completely unexpected) that I found to be an assest in how I coped was that the pain NEVER subsided. Isn't that weird - that I'd view that as a _good_ thing? One of the things I took with me into labor from my Bradley classes was how women tend to make the mistake of using their downtime btwn contrax to dread what's coming next rather than to take the time during the contrax to anticipate relief. For me, there never _was_ any relief - ever - and I thought that it helped me b/c I didn't fall into the trap of dreading the next contrax! :LOL But I've always been weird like that.


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## sevenkids (Dec 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ramlah*

-Can I ask those of you who have had fast labors, was the pain more overwhelming than with your other labors?

My 2 fastest, 45 minutes for my third and 20 minutes for my sixth, were painless. If it weren't for the pressure and feeling like my butt was going to explode, I wouldn't have known I was in labour. (In fact, with my third, my mother pointed it out to me as we were having tea in the morning. "Are you in labour?" "Um, no, why?" "I think I'll send for the midwife anyway." I had the baby 45 minutes later. :LOL )

With my fifth, if there was another option open to me, I would have been to off to a hospital in a heartbeat. My midwife probably would have packed me up herself, after trying to push a 9 1/2 pound, posterior, military presenting baby out for 5 and a half hours. When his 15 inch big head finally broke my coccyx, he was able to be born. Ouch. I may not have had another (the 20 minute reward birth) homebirth if there was the option of a nice, clean hospital with pain medications and running water :LOL .

But anyhoo, as a homebirth midwife my self, I have no gripe with pain meds per se, but the over use of them and the pervading fear of having to experience a natural birth that is conveyed to the women. (Are you ready for that epidural yet? Get it quick, it'll get worse and then you _can't_ have one!) Pain meds, when used judiciously and for the right reasons, are wonderful. So is any other technological tool; ultrasounds, cesereans, etc. We live in a fear driven culture, and that fear is used to make tons of money for certain sectors. It over rides good judgement, and _that_ is scary.


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## sevenkids (Dec 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pamamidwife*

while it's not uncommon to think that an exhausted uterus is one that does not contract effectively, i don't think that pain caused deaths. i would also venture to say that we are a culture of people that avoid pain at all costs, people that whine alot about pain, people who want to be martyrs, and people that want to "one up" others about their suffering. this is true. i've seen women from other cultures birth and it's VERY different. we don't think we deserve to be in pain in our culture. we take pills for EVERYTHING.

so, hundreds of years ago, it was very different. women just birthed. there was no martyrdom that came from how great your pain is. you just did it. this attitude probably allowed many women not to FEAR birth as much as it is here in this country.


Ha! You notice that too?
It always amazes me that women here love to talk about how long, how hard, and how dangerous their births were. When I was growing up in Jamaica, and when I was having my babies, women boasted about how they worked right up until it was time to go lay down and push. "Me gyal, me wash three line of clothes, raked up the yard, cooked dinner, washed the dishes, moved the goats, bathed the other children and put them to bed, ironed their school uniforms, and called the midwife. Me have baby soon after she reach! Thank Jesus me make it through alive!" :LOL


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## Yummymummy74 (Jun 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *USAmma*
However this board is a place that, in the spirit of MDC, promotes natural choices over medical intervention. The epidural has a lot of risks. It would be like me going to the bfing forum and starting a thread on how great formula feeding is. It just doesn't make sense here at MDC.


Yup epidurals are not all magic they can and do go vascular anyone else here ever have that complication? I did and I survived it but some people are not so lucky.


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## Yummymummy74 (Jun 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sugarbeth*
Mommas all experience childbirth differently. Some women's bodies are built to handle delivering with little to no pain. And some of us apparently have way too many dang pain receptors in all the wrong places

Sure we do.. but bottom line I totally disagree that some womyn are better at birthing than others.. pain is largely societal conditioning and I stand firm in my opinion that attendants cause pain.. period! its all about fight or flight.


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## Caroline248 (Nov 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Black Orchid*
I can really relate to the OP, although I really REALLY hope that I can have a natural birth with the next baby. I tried, I really did... but after 3 days of back labor and just terrible, horrible contractions I broke down and asked for an epidural... and I felt so freaking guilty about it. I blamed all of the subsequent problems she had (jaundice, nursing issues, colic, reflux) on myself for having an epi







Lemme tell ya, that is NOT a good way to spend your PP days and doesn't help avoid PPD.

!


Haven't read the whole thread, but wanted to comment...I had a "natural, pain free birth", and my baby still was jaundiced, had colic, and still has reflux issues....please don't hold guilt there!!

~C~

ETA: Pain free??? I meant drug-free....LOL...


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## 2+twins (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sevenkids*
"Me gyal, me wash three line of clothes, raked up the yard, cooked dinner, washed the dishes, moved the goats, bathed the other children and put them to bed, ironed their school uniforms, and called the midwife. Me have baby soon after she reach! Thank Jesus me make it through alive!" :LOL









That is classic! I love it!


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## mandib50 (Oct 26, 2004)

so let me ask a question ... how do you think the use of drugs during childbirth affects the mother/baby bond, if at all? i wonder because i know that natural childbirth releases hormones into the body that make us want to mother our babies and don't drugs interfere with that process? i do understand that many of the women on MDC have made the choice to AP regardless of their birth decisions but what about for the general population? i'm curious how this might affect mothering and what others think.
mandi


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *love_homebirthing*
I think I'm the only person I've ever heard of who didn't speak negatively of back labor!... the thing about it for me (which was completely unexpected) that I found to be an assest in how I coped was that the pain NEVER subsided...

Well, that's one way of looking at it! :LOL For me personally, I feel like I can handle anything as long as I don't have to face back labor again.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sevenkids*
Ha! You notice that too?... "Me gyal, me wash three line of clothes, raked up the yard, cooked dinner, washed the dishes, moved the goats, bathed the other children and put them to bed, ironed their school uniforms, and called the midwife. Me have baby soon after she reach! Thank Jesus me make it through alive!" :LOL

The day my last baby was born I had painted the living room of my rental house...I was trying to even out the ceiling, but the paint simply would not smooth out...I tried to open another five gallon container of paint, but I could not do it as I had "dropped" and my center of balance had changed. I walked to the school to get my three children walked them home, fed them, helped them with their homework, put them down to bed, got myself ready for bed, laid down, and then realized that I was not going to be going to sleep for a while - I had another job to do...deliver my fourth baby!! I put out a snack, boiled water, called the midwife, gor out the birth kit, filled the bathtub with warm water, and set up the camera.

I was having a baby!!

He was born at 3:06 a.m., he was welcomed by his older siblings and I made breakfast for them before taking them to school ... he was show and tell for his siblings that day!


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## mrzmeg (Jul 16, 2002)

This thread is getting pretty OT







but I wanted to add that I'm glad to see it here.

Quote:

The contention that all pain in childbirth is created by attendants, or that birth isn't painful (or shouldn't be if you do it "right"), or that all of us are capable of achieving a natural birth, is a little heavy-handed and dismissive, and ultimately hurts people more than helps them
ITA. I planned a homebirth with my ds and stayed at home, in active labor for 15 hrs, stuck at 4cm. I decided to transfer to the hospital for Nubain and ds was born four hours later. 'Violent' is the best word I can think of to describe the entire situation. I blamed myself for a lot of this, but, really, my expectations were unreal. I had read so many NFL birthstories and Ina May books that I really thought the pain would be more manageable. Add to that the fact that my mother told me (and still asserts) that her labor was no worse than menstrual cramps, and I was setting myself up for disappointment. A 'can do' attitude is helpful for oneself, but when advocated for so loudly, I think it can be harmful as well, especially to first time moms.

I've been through it once before and I hope that that knowledge will help guide me through the upcoming birth. But, before having ds, I could never have even imagined that kind of pain existed. I'm glad to see such a frank discussion of it here on MDC.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmuma*
Sure we do.. but bottom line I totally disagree that some womyn are better at birthing than others.. pain is largely societal conditioning and I stand firm in my opinion that attendants cause pain.. period! its all about fight or flight.

I think this comment is arrogant and naive. My labour hurt like







, and the pain was not caused by my attitude or my birth attendants.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd*
Well, that's one way of looking at it! :LOL For me personally, I feel like I can handle anything as long as I don't have to face back labor again.

I had back labor with #1 and #2;










#3 was easy I earned him!

so was #4!

I deserved it! I quit while I was ahead.


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## water (May 15, 2003)

My faster (4.5 hours) unmedicated underwater(!) birth hurt waaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy less than my 40 hours of back labour hospital transfer from a planned homebirth.

Back labour was AWFUL

I do agree though that this thread is out of place here. I DIDN't "make it through" my first experience unmedicated and it was the most god-awful, horrible excruciating pain I could imagine, yet I still planned to do it again!!! And did! And it was amazing and wonderful and still hurt like hell, just a lesser circle of hell :LOL


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## sugarbeth (Apr 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
I think this comment is arrogant and naive. My labour hurt like







, and the pain was not caused by my attitude or my birth attendants.

I totally agree. And I actually thought it was pretty misogynistic to say, ironically.


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## Yummymummy74 (Jun 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *applejuice*
The day my last baby was born I had painted the living room of my rental house...I was trying to even out the ceiling, but the paint simply would not smooth out...I tried to open another five gallon container of paint, but I could not do it as I had "dropped" and my center of balance had changed. I walked to the school to get my three children walked them home, fed them, helped them with their homework, put them down to bed, got myself ready for bed, laid down, and then realized that I was not going to be going to sleep for a while - I had another job to do...deliver my fourth baby!! I put out a snack, boiled water, called the midwife, gor out the birth kit, filled the bathtub with warm water, and set up the camera.

I was having a baby!!

He was born at 3:06 a.m., he was welcomed by his older siblings and I made breakfast for them before taking them to school ... he was show and tell for his siblings that day!


This makes me smile! :LOL I remember when I had my 6 year old.. I had had a very busy day with the kids, had gone out to run errands that night.. picked up a couple of things for the "impending" baby..lol she was due a day later but since I had never ever gone on my date or anything earlier than 2 weeks after it I thought I was good to go.. came home was walking up the walkway and my water broke! LOL ... went in hung out a while then decided to go to the hospital to have her







(keep in mind this had been a UP) and had her a few hours later .. came home stopped off at the grocery store.. ran a few more errands before getting some sleep an then the next day made it to my shopping "date" with my mom with new baby in tow .. you should have seen the look on her face when she saw me show up with a baby :LOL it was priceless!

I don't think I would have the energy for that these days.. but man I was only 25 then


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## Yummymummy74 (Jun 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
I think this comment is arrogant and naive. My labour hurt like







, and the pain was not caused by my attitude or my birth attendants.

You can disagree all you want.. I think your reply to me is arrogant and rude








I stand firm I have birthed 8 babies in varying places and headspaces.. I also am drawing on the collective experience of other groups I belong too.. to each their own.. birth was not designed as a flawed process .. attendants were not part of the intitial plan for evolution

We can debate it until the cows come home.. I am not attacking your views so do NOT attack mine.

"mi·sog·y·nis·tic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m-sj-nstk) also mi·sog·y·nous (-sj-ns)
adj.
Of or characterized by a hatred of women"

Oh my gosh I am







: at this how on earth can you misconstrue my comments about pain being societal.. and attendants causing undue performance anxiety and pain due to their interventions as misogynistic.. please.. if you want to pick apart my post make sense about it ok?


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## sarajane (Oct 20, 2004)

I haven't read all five pages of this, I started from the beginning thinking there were only two pages but when I saw there were more I skipped to the last page! There seem to be alot of things being brought up.

I haven't been through it yet but just wanted to say that the wonderful homebirth stories I hear don't have me thinking my birth will be so easy by any means. I know it is gonna hurt. I may freak out, something could go wrong. I know these things but choose to go for the homebirth anyway. I think in some circles hospital AND home birth can be portrayed to be something it isn't. I don't think anyone should take anybody's word on what it was like or what to expect exactly. Seems to me birth is so different for everyone for many reasons.

I tend to think that some women will do best at home and some best at the hospital. I am naturally really against going to the hospital myself and very uncomfortable around docs and the way they do things. I'm very modest about my body and don't believe I could give it my all in a hospital setting with nurses and docs around.

I think some women are more comfortable with all the things that come along with the hospital birth experience and thus will have less pain there. I don't think anyone can deny that stress and tension causes more pain. That is simply fact. So if the thought of homebirth stresses a person out and they were convinced by others to do it cuz it is better then I can see them having an awful expiernce. Same thing goes for the hospital. I can see how people can end up feeling duped.

I see women get told downright lies about drugs and their effects and many other procedures and I feel they definately got duped! Everyone needs to do their own research and make their own choices. It is sad there are so many who try only to influence for their own selfish reasons. I know people like that and it isn't a cool thing to do.

I have a lot of respect for the home birth community compared to the hospital birth community. Thus far I have been told untrue things only by the hospital birth communtiy. The home birthers have been completely honest with me and for me that is one of the many reasons I want to be a part of it.


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## mamasaurus (Jun 20, 2004)

Wow! Ok, I'm here. I didn't expect this kind of response at all. Wow. I don't even know where to begin. I just posted what, yesterday? This is the first time I've had to sit down and come back here. Look, I'm not even sure what a troll is - someone who just posts on a forum to cause trouble or something? That's what it sounds like.

Anyway, I'm a poster here, I used to post under ilovemybaby, but I lost the password and you know how that goes...had to get a new name. But, I love Mothering and this forum - I've learned a lot here. As Pam said, I felt it was a safe place to post. I've received so much support here in the past.

I posted in great detail before about my first birth experience. The thread went on and on and I received a lot of help and concern. Someone even recommended a birth trauma counselor for me in another state, and she and I had a few phone conversations that were helpful. That thread was very overwhelming for me. I ended up copying the whole thing and saving it on my computer.

I felt I could post this on Mothering because of my history here, with that thread I posted about my first birth.

Also, I remember reading in the Mothering magazine an article talking about med/no meds for childbirth. And it said something about the "compassionate use of medications". It really touched me because of my first birth experience. I thought that if Mothering could advocate the compassionate use of meds then it would be ok to post here, especially since I tried the homebirth.

Some of you had questions about my first birth. About my option to go to the hospital - I would not have made it in time. My baby came fast. We just stayed home and I did the best I could.

I know it was my choice to be home. But I made that choice thinking that water would help the pain, based on a lot of stuff I read. I didn't know that my own personal pain was going to be so horrific. I felt like I was being raped or drawn and quartered or something. By the time I realized the pain was too much, we were in the thick of it and I was almost 10cm.

I know that childbirth pain is common, and I knew about it before hand, but all I can say is that for me, it was absolute torture.

Yea, I'm still angry about the first birth. I'm mad, sad, frustrated, etc. That will probably never go away and I'm fine with that. It's normal and I don't need to squash my feelings down. So, if you got some of that from my post, it's definitely still there.

I'm just soooo glad, soooo grateful I was able to have a great second birth. I took control of my birth choices the second time. Yes, I made my own choices the first time, but without all the information I needed.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmuma*
You can disagree all you want.. I think your reply to me is arrogant and rude







I stand firm I have birthed 8 babies in varying places and headspaces.. I also am drawing on the collective experience of other groups I belong too.. to each their own.. birth was not designed as a flawed process .. attendants were not part of the intitial plan for evolution

We can debate it until the cows come home.. I am not attacking your views so do NOT attack mine.


You are attacking my lived experience, and the experience of many other mamas on this thread, when you say that the amount of pain we experienced is directly related to the birth attendants present when we had our babes. I am saying that FOR ME THIS IS NOT TRUE. If it was true for you, that's fine and valid, but you'd run into less difficulty with me if you owned your own experience.

And I don't buy for one second that attendants "were not part of the initial plan for evolution." This mama is part of evolution, and she was designed to have LOTS of birth attendants.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamasaurus*

I felt I could post this on Mothering because of my history here, with that thread I posted about my first birth.

Also, I remember reading in the Mothering magazine an article talking about med/no meds for childbirth. And it said something about the "compassionate use of medications". It really touched me because of my first birth experience. I thought that if Mothering could advocate the compassionate use of meds then it would be ok to post here, especially since I tried the homebirth.

Hi mamasaurus -

I hope that as well as dissenting opinions you are also hearing the support many of us have expressed for your perspective and your right to birth however you choose, as well as the thanks to you for bringing up this subject. I'm glad your second birth was a positive experience for you.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmuma*
Sure we do.. but bottom line I totally disagree that some womyn are better at birthing than others.. pain is largely societal conditioning and I stand firm in my opinion that attendants cause pain.. period! its all about fight or flight.

Marsupialmuma, I agree with you that for some women attendants may cause pain. I would also say, that for some women, the idea of unattended birth would cause as much stress. Again..conditioning by society that it's not possible, and attendane is needed to be safe.

On another note, I'd like you to consider, and maybe make room in your heart for another idea. Another huge common denominator among women who seem to feel extrodinary pain during childbirth is a history of sexual abuse (I'm not suggesting that every woman who's been in this situation has a history, but it is very common, more than 1 in 4 women has a history of abuse). For many women in that situation, birth is unbearable. Truely. Many of them don't even realize why at the time. For some of them, a chosen medicated birth IS highy empowering. They were able to take control, and be a participant, and active in thier birth in that way. (agian, mamasaurus, I'm not saying this is you)
I could go on for pages about this, but I just really want you to consider it, and maybe place it in the back of your mind that maybe some women have a good reason for thier choices. Why do I care if you consider this or not? Because it sounds like you are very vocal in the birth community. If you are in a room full of women talking about birth, at least one of them has this history.We all know how far ripples go.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I don't get what we are arguing about here. Are we disagreeing about whether giving birth hurts? About whether it is a highly individual experience? About whether attendants make a difference?

Okay, I'm weighing in:

1. Yeah, giving birth hurts, that's why pain relief is even a question.

2. Of course every birth is different, everyone who has had multiple births can attest to that. There are a lot of reasons why one birth might feel ecstatic and not all that painful and another might feel like you are dying. I knew that from reading birth stories in my first trimester of pregnancy. It seems elementary.

(This sounds funny even to me, a person who learns everything by reading! What I mean is, you can observe that all births are different without being, I don't know, Ina May Gaskin.)

3. Of course your birth attendants make a difference. I wouldn't go so far as to say they are the only factor and we aren't intended by nature to have birth attendants, that seems like an extreme position. But I do often wonder whether my birth would have gone a lot better and not stalled out if a different CNM had been on duty when I hit the hospital.

I always thought the question about pain relief was more about whether you could have an efficient, effective labor and an unaffected, alert baby.

(Though perhaps this is completely from my own very weird experience of birth.)


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmb123*
On another note, I'd like you to consider, and maybe make room in your heart for another idea. Another huge common denominator among women who seem to feel extrodinary pain during childbirth is a history of sexual abuse (I'm not suggesting that every woman who's been in this situation has a history, but it is very common, more than 1 in 4 women has a history of abuse). For many women in that situation, birth is unbearable. Truely. Many of them don't even realize why at the time. For some of them, a chosen medicated birth IS highy empowering. They were able to take control, and be a participant, and active in thier birth in that way. (agian, mamasaurus, I'm not saying this is you)
I could go on for pages about this, but I just really want you to consider it, and maybe place it in the back of your mind that maybe some women have a good reason for thier choices. Why do I care if you consider this or not? Because it sounds like you are very vocal in the birth community. If you are in a room full of women talking about birth, at least one of them has this history.We all know how far ripples go.

Do you have anything on this I could read? I think this is part of all the problems I'm having at home right now in the bedroom and it started during my pgcy w/ Evan. I couldn't even let DH touch me most days w/out feeling horrible inside and it has nothing to do w/ him! I had a fairly fast (not super fast, but it was good at 12 hrs) w/ Evan and I did wonderfully at home by myself (DH was sleeping) till ctxs were about 3 mins apart. They hurt like heck and that ride to the hospital was awful! lol I ended up w/ an epi the last 1.5 hrs of my birth b/c I was not handling the ctxs well at all since they were back to back by then. I joke I made all the other mommies want epis w/ all my screaming. Sorry, I just started typing and it had nothing to do w/ what I started the post about...any help would be great. I often contemplate whether I need some kind of counseling or something, but I never know what to do and can't even seem to talk to DH about it, but I know he misses me.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Marsupialmuma .. attendants were not part of the intitial plan for evolution
[/QUOTE said:


> A child birth educator I knew once had a theory that birth pain was intended to gather support for laboring women. I guess her theory is that mamas of infants need support around them ~ it's the pain that draws it.
> 
> I thought that was a really interesting theory.
> 
> OP, there was a thread a while back about interventions (and their positive place in pregnancy, labor and birth). I'll see if I can bump it up for you.


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## Oh the Irony (Dec 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamasaurus*
Also, I remember reading in the Mothering magazine an article talking about med/no meds for childbirth. And it said something about the "compassionate use of medications". It really touched me because of my first birth experience. I thought that if Mothering could advocate the compassionate use of meds then it would be ok to post here, especially since I tried the homebirth.

I'm just soooo glad, soooo grateful I was able to have a great second birth. I took control of my birth choices the second time. Yes, I made my own choices the first time, but without all the information I needed.

I'm grateful you were too...I support your freedom of choice to birth as you see fit. It is not my decision.

I realized that if you had posted under birth stories, I would have offered more support. I realized that if the title and content had not been so melodramatic (to me) in tone I would have offered more support. Last time I checked, I have not yet been appointed Queen of post placement and title management.









Hearing more of your story, I begin to see more of the why. I begin to _understand_ and that is what I ultimately seek in life. Thank you for the opportunity.


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## homebirthing (Nov 10, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Boobs*
My husband wouldn't support my decision to do it again.


Yikes. I hope he would if you change your mind, since he isn't the one having the baby.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Interesint one, OP...

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=240381


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## Debstmomy (Jun 1, 2004)

Boy is this thread making me think. One thing I would like to point is not all epidurals/intrathecal work!

For me, I have had 2 fail me. When I had DD I thought get the meds & I would not feel anything. Wrong. I felt so much still, not pain but severe pressure at 5 cm. It was awful & I could not move to relieve it. With DS it only took on one side. Again awful, wish I had never done it.

While I am glad the OP found relief from what she needed, it does not work for all, and I feel that people need to know that.

Ok way off OT, but wanted to through that out there!
Oh and I agree, just because you choose a medicated birth, does not make you less of an AP mom!


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

And I don't buy for one second that attendants "were not part of the initial plan for evolution." This mama is part of evolution, and she was designed to have LOTS of birth attendants.
Isn't it true that moms in prehistoric times had birth attendants? Heck, even elephants have birth attendants; they have a difficult time giving birth without them around.

Moms who have unattended births also say they hurt.


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## sugarbeth (Apr 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmuma*
You can disagree all you want.. I think your reply to me is arrogant and rude







I stand firm I have birthed 8 babies in varying places and headspaces.. I also am drawing on the collective experience of other groups I belong too.. to each their own.. birth was not designed as a flawed process .. attendants were not part of the intitial plan for evolution

For the record, I'm the one who called your comment misogynistic. For you to insinuate that I wouldn't feel pain under better circumstances (I was Bradley trained and well-informed, loved my birth attendants, my husband was awesome, I labored right where I wanted to be - I think my circumstances were perfect) belittles my experience and my feelings.

Birth comes easy to you. I get it. For you to assume that it comes easy for everybody and that I'm somehow to blame for the pain that I felt is so very condescending.

And I would contend that human childbirth IS an inherently flawed process. If it was perfect, mommas and babies would never die or be harmed during it. And it sure wouldn't hurt like a son-of-a-b****.


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## jessemoon (May 31, 2004)

I remember reading somewhere that humans sacrificed easy childbirth for great big brains (evolution wise) and that is why we have had attendants going back as far as any kind of records/artifacts referrring to birth exist.

This is not to say that UC is unnatural or wierd, but having had my baby at home with wonderful midwives and my husband and my mom present, I can say (purely from my own experience) that it was painful and their presence didn't do much one way or another to change the amount of pain that I was feeling. What I did appreciate, though was their calming influence.

I think that I handled the pain better because they reassured me that I was fine. And when it came time to push out my 10 1/2 pound guy and he got stuck, I was very grateful for the presence of cool-headed women who had seen this process before. He was my first baby...maybe if I was on baby number 7, I wouldn't have wanted or needed attendants.

I think that marsupialmom's experiences are valid and I am delighted for her that she has found ways of birthing her babies that work for her and that she trusts her body and advocates that other women do the same. On the other hand, I also believe that part of the point of empowering women to take back their birth experiences has to do with choice.

I made the choice to have attendants and I don't believe that it was the wrong one. If I look back on my birth experience fondly and wouldn't change anything (including the pain,quite frankly) then it was the best experience for me.

I think it is a little presumptious to assume that the pain that I felt was my fault for choosing to have a support system with me during my labor. My support system was what helped make the experience of birthing my first child a positive one. If we are to be supportive of women who choose to birth unnassissted, then I believe that we need to be supportive of women who birth surrounded by a community of women that they trust as well.


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## homebirthing (Nov 10, 2002)

Wow, I wouldn't ever give birth without another woman present. Even if it is my sister, my mother or my doula. I love my midwife and I am lucky to have her as a friend as well...but I think that *most* women are lucky to have a compasionate caring woman with them. I understand not wanting anyone there, but as far back as history goes, there are women supporting women in the birth tent. Midwifery is an old and much needed role in our culture as humans. There are hieroglyphs dipicting women helping women to give birth.


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## Yummymummy74 (Jun 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sugarbeth*
Birth comes easy to you. I get it. For you to assume that it comes easy for everybody and that I'm somehow to blame for the pain that I felt is so very condescending.

And I would contend that human childbirth IS an inherently flawed process. If it was perfect, mommas and babies would never die or be harmed during it. And it sure wouldn't hurt like a son-of-a-b****.

Huh?? you dont know a thing about my birth history! I have been through alot aside from c-section.. now THATS condescending to say "birth comes easy" to me..







: I have spent years on my journey.. making mistakes, bad choices..being victimized by the medical establishment.. and yes my hospital births hurt.. the ones that were not drugged.. I have had ones where the drugs never worked.. where the drugs went into my blood stream and almost killed me and my baby.. I have had good ones that did work.. I have had unmedicated hospital birth..I have had forceps birth I had had lithotomy birth I have had squatting birth I have had 7 posterior births and one anterior, I have had induction birth I have had spontanious birth... geez anything else you want to know??? crap the list could go on.. ( I wont call it natural because there is nothing natural about a hospital to me anymore) and I have had an beautiful.. basically painfree home freebirth resulting in a 9 pound 8 ounce darling girl. Why was it NOT painful?? because I had no one shoving their hands up me every hour.. no performance anxiety.. no person between my legs who does NOT belong there.. I was safe.. in control.. on my own terms.. and I did not even beleive I was IN labour until my daughters head was literally falling out of me... yes its true.. and I am NOT the only one who will tell you this..There were no machines to go ping.. no ridiculous curves to adhere too, no midwife with her own biases and fears to bring that into my space to make my sacred birth space toxic... please do not compare attended birth to unattended birth, the semantics around it fine.. but there is a WHOLE world of difference in terms of pain and its not just been my experience.

Please do not insinuate I am off the ball with my remarks, I never slammed your opinion I just stated mine and you did not agree with it..I have had more babies than most people I know, and while that does not make me an expert it does however give me a very distinct advantage in terms of real life comparison.. life is about continuous learning learning (well hey it is for me) and if people are too close minded to see that possibly..just *maybe* there is more to birth than whats on the surface and what they are seeing and living .. well then thats sad







5 years ago I was NOT where I am now.. I too thought birth was just this painful ordeal to get through I am eternally greatful to the womyn who opened my mind and allowed me to see that it did not have to be that way.. gosh there is so much that ties into this and I can see now that this forum is not the place for it.. so I will bow out now and stay in forums pertinant to my I guess *whacked out beliefs* about birth







:


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## Nabbe (Sep 27, 2004)

I am one of those who comes the other way around. I had two medicated births with the "walk-around-epidural", hurted like hell, then i had a natural birth with only acupuncture after, and it was just as much pain, but yet, it was NATURAL. I DID IT. My body DID IT. What a rush! And i now withdraw every word i said about homebirth, cuz if its medically recomendable next time (if ever), I will give birth at home, i hope! So i would say more and more natural childbirths for me! Who gives a sh*t about epi, it hurts just as much anyway!


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmuma*
So please do not insinuate I am off the ball with my remarks, I never slammed your opinion I just stated mine and you did not agree with it..

I'm sorry to hear about your bad birthing experiences, and glad to hear about your positive one.

However, you cannot simply extend your experience and assume it fits that of all women. It is appropriate to share what works FOR YOU, and for people you know who have similar experiences.

For me, I thought my birth attendants were wonderful and exactly what I needed. The special and empowering experience that my labour was had a lot to do with the people present. That is MY experience. I felt a LOT of pain, that was also MY experience. And I know it was NOT because of my birth attendants... it was because for me, my labour hurt a lot.

When you discount my experience and replace it with what you think should be true for all women because it was true for you, that is disrespectful and offensive. Please respect that my experience is as valid as yours.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

My mother had one 1960s hospital birth and two unassisted homebirths. She says they all hurt equally.

I suppose when a UCer has birth pain, it could be blamed on her attitude.







:


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## Jane (May 15, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thepeach80*
Do you have anything on this I could read?

When Survivors Give Birth


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## Yummymummy74 (Jun 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
That is MY experience. I felt a LOT of pain, that was also MY experience. And I know it was NOT because of my birth attendants... it was because for me, my labour hurt a lot.

With all due respect how can you say this in such a concrete manner?? you have nothing to compare that experience too??







I guess this is the problem people are not going to see it until they live it.

>>>>>>>>exiting this thread


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
When you discount my experience and replace it with what you think should be true for all women because it was true for you, that is disrespectful and offensive. Please respect that my experience is as valid as yours.

This was my take on it as well. If one woman has no pain when she is not attended well that's wonderful for her but I still had pain when I had no one with me. I was not afraid. I was not uptight. I felt my body knew what it was doing and everything was fine and I still felt pain.

Captain_Optimism asked if we were arguing about whether or not birth attendants can affect pain in labor. No I don't think that's the question at all. I think we all agree that birth attendants can very much affect our labor experiences and our pain with labor. What we do not agree on is that all pain in labor is caused by birth attendants and that if we all just had UCs we wouldn't have pain in labor.


----------



## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmuma*
With all due respect how can you say this in such a concrete manner?? you have nothing to compare that experience too??







I guess this is the problem people are not going to see it until they live it.

>>>>>>>>exiting this thread

Well, a lot of people labored alone for some time before the attendant showed up. It didn't magically start hurting when others arrived. The labor brought pain, and for some attendants brought more and for others attendants eased it. While others may not have birthed alone, the labor is more painful than the actual birth for many and many have labored alone and with company so there is some basis for comparison.

I definately think it is a factor, but IMO it isn't the bottom line.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wasabi*
Captain_Optimism asked if we were arguing about whether or not birth attendants can affect pain in labor. No I don't think that's the question at all. I think we all agree that birth attendants can very much affect our labor experiences and our pain with labor. What we do not agree on is that all pain in labor is caused by birth attendants and that if we all just had UCs we wouldn't have pain in labor.









What she said.


----------



## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

Personally I believe it is a lot of "mind over matter" the reason some can walk on hot coals and be ok, while I can't bump my hand on the oven rack without tearing up. The more you practice, experience and focus on getting the mind over the pain the more succesful you will be at pain free childbirth. *Believing* you know what causes the pain and eliminating that is just one more tool in getting your mind over the physical affects.


----------



## homebirthing (Nov 10, 2002)

marsupial- I agree with you that "midwifes" at the hospital (which I have other terms for) are veyr invasive. I would MUCH rather give birth behind a dumpster then ever have another one try to "manage" my birth or put hands in places that don't belong! I am truely blessed with a midwife who does NO vaginal checks, NO testing, NO scare tactics. She has me make all decisions regarding my labor and birth, and she is there for me and my husband completely. She stands back and we do everything. She does check heartbeats at prenatals and birth, and she does the well baby check and completely attends me postpartum. I am so blessed to have her. SHE is a true midwife, and I can only be so lucky to be half the midwife she is. She empowers me to find my own power. If you find your power alone with your family, I think that is wonderful.


----------



## Yummymummy74 (Jun 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*







ARE YOU FREAKING SERIOUS?????? My birth experience is not valid or "concrete" because I have "only" done it once? You are ridiculous. I am glad you are exiting this thread because I am exiting conversation with you. "With all due respect" my







.

Hmmm tres mature! I never once called you names or insulted you directly I can see you have some major issues about this I am really sorry about that...

There was no need for you to get flippant and nasty.


----------



## 2+twins (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmuma*
and I have had an beautiful.. basically painfree home freebirth resulting in a 9 pound 8 ounce darling girl. Why was it NOT painful?? because I had no one shoving their hands up me every hour.. no performance anxiety.. no person between my legs who does NOT belong there.. I was safe.. in control.. on my own terms.. and I did not even beleive I was IN labour until my daughters head was literally falling out of me... yes its true.. and I am NOT the only one who will tell you this..There were no machines to go ping.. no ridiculous curves to adhere too, no midwife with her own biases and fears to bring that into my space to make my sacred birth space toxic... please do not compare attended birth to unattended birth, the semantics around it fine.. but there is a WHOLE world of difference in terms of pain and its not just been my experience.

I too birthed a 9lb 8oz baby girl unattended and it hurt more than I could ever explain. MUCH MUCH more than my attended homebirth (with wonderful midwifes who I adored and I felt adored me) which was backlabor, btw, asynclitic head & compound presentation. I don't doubt that you had the experience you described. But it could be luck of the draw, it could be that *you* can't be comfortable enough during labor with attendants there, any number of other factors, or a combination thereof. I don't think it's fair to making sweeping generalizations on _any_ topic and this is what it seems like you're doing. I think that attendants at birth are a necessary comfort for many women (not all). I personally prefer to be left alone - I'm more of a primal hide-in-a-cave-in-the-dark type of birther. For people like us maybe unattended *is* the less painful way to go. I honestly couldn't say if that's true in my case - I simply don't know as every birth (and it's sensations) is different. I guess I'm trying to say that I see both sides to this but it doesn't seem like you're open to the possibility that UC does not necessarily equal pain-free (or anything even close).


----------



## homebirthing (Nov 10, 2002)

I have given birth in a hospital with strangers and family, at home with family and at home with A LOT of family and freinds. Next time, I am trimming in down to only...I don't know...5 or 6 people. That is a little for me!


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

DoulaSarah - my birth experience only included myself, my midwife, and a doula (who I didn't really like actually). I wanted it to be "private" and thought I would want that. Next time I'm thinking - I need more peeps! I needed a lot of strong counterpressure in labour to manage the pain, and I could tell it was physically exhausting for my birth helpers. Also it would be nice to have an extra body or two to make food, bring me things, and generally organize and arrange. So I'm going the opposite way that I thought I would.









I think it's funny that you are "trimming it down" to ONLY 5 or 6!


----------



## Yummymummy74 (Jun 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DoulaSarah*
marsupial- I agree with you that "midwifes" at the hospital (which I have other terms for) are veyr invasive. I would MUCH rather give birth behind a dumpster then ever have another one try to "manage" my birth or put hands in places that don't belong! I am truely blessed with a midwife who does NO vaginal checks, NO testing, NO scare tactics. She has me make all decisions regarding my labor and birth, and she is there for me and my husband completely. She stands back and we do everything. She does check heartbeats at prenatals and birth, and she does the well baby check and completely attends me postpartum. I am so blessed to have her. SHE is a true midwife, and I can only be so lucky to be half the midwife she is. She empowers me to find my own power. If you find your power alone with your family, I think that is wonderful.


Of course Sarah, there are always going to be exceptions to the rule right? my main contention with midwives, ob's and attendants in general is that they just CANNOT leave well enough alone.. almost every variation of normal to them is almost universally an accident waiting to happen







I don't understand why people are not understanding my main point here.. when you introduce someone into the *birth soup*.. a complex mix of hormones, chemicals and primal instincts you are going to alter something somehow! everyone brings a bias with them everyone has their own fears.. and when your near a labouring woman she is a sponge .. open to ALL energy..

I just feel that on a subconscious level attended birth is more diffucult for the mother than unattended birth... the kind of midwife you describe is how they all should be.. but sadly its rare


----------



## Yummymummy74 (Jun 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Marsupialmuma - Oh are you still here? I thought you were "exiting this thread."

Buh-bye.

Nope I can see you love me too much


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Yea, but MM, your previous posts didn't say *just* that. I don't think anyone is saying that attendants don't alter the outcome of the birth experience. I, personally, think attendants are interventions.

All this has little to do with some of the other things you said in your posts.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmuma*
I don't understand why people are not understanding my main point here.. when you introduce someone into the *birth soup*.. a complex mix of hormones, chemicals and primal instincts you are going to alter something somehow! everyone brings a bias with them everyone has their own fears.. and when your near a labouring woman she is a sponge .. open to ALL energy..


As I have said before, but I'll say it more clearly, the reason *I* am not understanding your point is that you are not owning it. You are using *you* language and generalizing about your own experience to make it true for all women. Which negates my experience, which was that labour hurt a lot AND I had great birth attendants, and they did not cause my pain.

If you use *I* language to talk about your experience I might have found it interesting and something to consider, rather than finding your words insulting.


----------



## Yummymummy74 (Jun 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
As I have said before, but I'll say it more clearly, the reason *I* am not understanding your point is that you are not owning it. You are using *you* language and generalizing about your own experience to make it true for all women. Which negates my experience, which was that labour hurt a lot AND I had great birth attendants, and they did not cause my pain.

If you use *I* language to talk about your experience I might have found it interesting and something to consider, rather than finding your words insulting.

Oh is this one of those situations where emails and message board posts do not convey tone and intent properly?? maybe you should have asked me for clarification before calling me names and jumping down my throat.


----------



## Yummymummy74 (Jun 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
Yea, but MM, your previous posts didn't say *just* that. I don't think anyone is saying that attendants don't alter the outcome of the birth experience. I, personally, think attendants are interventions.

All this has little to do with some of the other things you said in your posts.

You see there is just too much to this I think to properly discuss in a thread like this... without being misunderstood.. your right I am a very convicted UC'er.. but I never said that ALL womyn must birth this way or that all womyn will have pain with an attendant.. its my position that attendants cause pain.. as that has been my experience and alot of my friends experiences.. of course there are always exceptions to this... but I think for someone to shun the idea because they had a painful birth with attendants they *love* that they would not have a painful birth doing it another way .. is well ... weird!! :LOL because how on earth can you know until you do it? I sure as heck didnt! I used to be the epidural queen once upon a nightmare


----------



## ramlita (Mar 26, 2002)

I feel that there is a big difference between

"Attendants cause birth pain"

and

"In my experience, my attendants caused my birth pain."

I think that's the core of what's been driving me crazy about this part of this thead.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

But we have someone here right on this thread that had a painful UC and many people who had positive attended births.

Here's the thing, I've read about pain-free births and have seen a video of a pain-free birth.

From what I've seen this seems to be very *rare*&#8230;and definitely off topic.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmuma*
Oh is this one of those situations where emails and message board posts do not convey tone and intent properly?? maybe you should have asked me for calrification before calling me names and jumping down my throat.

Um, no its not, IMO. You said: "Pain is largely societal conditioning and I stand firm in my opinion that attendants cause pain... period!"

This is a gross generalization and I find it offensive because I feel that you are telling me my pain wouldn't have existed had I given birth unattended. If for YOU attendants caused pain, I can be interested in that experience. But I find you judging what caused MY pain without even knowing me to be insulting.

Then when I said to you that I felt a lot of pain and didn't feel it was caused by my attendants, you basically told me I didn't know any better because I had nothing "concrete" to compare my birthing experience to.

This is inappropriate and negates my authority on my own birth.

If you tell me I don't know what's true for me, I am going to be angry. If you own your experience, I am happy and interested to hear about it, and feel that it might have something to teach me. Does this make sense to you?


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...07#post2894607

Do attendants cause more pain during labor and birth? What allows for a pain-free birth?

This is a spin off. Pain free birth has been something I've been curious about and I thought we could have a good discussion here about it.

...if you want to talk more about it...


----------



## Yummymummy74 (Jun 7, 2004)

thismama said:


> Um, no its not, IMO. You said: "Pain is largely societal conditioning and I stand firm in my opinion that attendants cause pain... period!"
> 
> Right and I still feel this way largely I think we are rasied to view birth as this horror.. primed from young age in fact.
> 
> ...


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmuma*
... but I think for someone to shun the idea because they had a painful birth with attendants they *love* that they would not have a painful birth doing it another way .. is well ... weird!! :LOL because how on earth can you know until you do it? I sure as heck didnt! I used to be the epidural queen once upon a nightmare










I'm not doing that.

I have no predictions for my future pregnancies and births. I made the mistake of thinking the planned HB of my first (and only) child would be less painful than what was described to me. I had read and seen pain-free births and I expected that birthing at home would help with the pain.

And it did!! (I think)

But, you're right, I do think a UC birth would be painful for me. I'll probably never know.


----------



## homemademomma (Apr 1, 2004)

yay! what a lively discussion. i've had one homebirth with a midwife, assistant, and dh present. it hurt like hell, but i cant wait to do it again! i am planning to have a mw and student come to my next labor, but they have to sit at the other side of the room and not say or do anything anything while i am giving birth! the main reason i want them there is for cleanup and, because i am currently a midwifery student, i know how important it is for students to see UC type births. it gives you a new perspective on how fearful and untrusting (is that a word?) of birth even we midwives can be.

im just chiming in to remind everyone to be nice to each other! its easy to forget that we are all real people behind the computer screen.


----------



## Yummymummy74 (Jun 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
I'm not doing that.

I have no predictions for my future pregnancies and births. I made the mistake of thinking the planned HB of my first (and only) child would be less painful than what was described to me. I had read and seen pain-free births and I expected that birthing at home would help with the pain.

And it did!! (I think)

But, you're right, I do think a UC birth would be painful for me. I'll probably never know.









I know, I was not actually referencing you in my post.. I was speaking about "thismama" who clearly stated that her birth with attendants was painful and her births are just painful because.. and attendants or lack of them would not alter that


----------



## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

MM I'm curious do you think if you are unattended but plan to have an attendant at some point during the process that then you will have pain the whole time? I don't have many friends who actually UCed but I do have many friends who labored at home until as late as possible and baiscally showed up to the hospital pushing and they all had pain. As I shared I labored at home unattended for right around 10 hours of my 13.5 hour labor. But I still had pain. Is this because I was going to have an attendant?


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmuma*
Again I am really sorry but I do not mean you any respect but how can you be soo finite when you DONT have anything to compare with? man I thought I was hardcore.


One thing that has been said before is that all births are different. My mom had 5 births and #3 was the most difficult.

Maybe part of what people are getting upset over is that you're saying that you know absolutely which factors led to your pain free birth.

But, honestly, how can you know? Do you think you could have had a pain-free UC with your first child?

I don't know, it seems like you're assuming some stuff here too, yk?


----------



## sevenkids (Dec 16, 2002)

We cannot make sweeping generalizations about birth. It's different every time, for every woman, regardless of caregivers, locations, whatever.
It will never be the same experience twice. How fun is that?

I had relatively easy births with my first 4, my third, and my biggest, was _painless._ even my first birth was only 5 hours, with only a few moments of, "_Oh, my g-d, I can't do this!"._
I went into my fifth birth confident, and a bit arrogant, I know how to birth easily, painlessly, and without trauma. Piece of cake, right?

Wrong.

My fifth birth was a hellish nightmare, so bad I tried to knock myself out by banging my head on the wall. I passed out from the pain several times. I prayed to die so I would'd have to do it anymore. My midwife and mother were the only thing that kept me sane (and from bashing my own head in).

Having my 6th, I woke up in the middle of the night terrified of having to give birth again. I dreaded it. Feared it more than anything imaginable.

She fell out of me. Never even felt a contraction or urge to push. Go figure.

It's unpredictable, it's marvelous, it's amazing and the most powerful thing most of us will ever do. My fifth birth taught me humility, (not right away, of course, it took a while to get the message!) and made me realize that not every birth is going to be the same, and just as in life itself, when you think you got it all figured out, Surprise! You don't!
It has been a great blessing to me, because as a midwife, if I had only had easy painless births, how would I know what a really difficult birth is like for a woman under my care? I know better than to think I know better, or to think all the answers lie in a single philosophy. Truth is, there are no answers that will fit every woman's birth. All we can do is respect the process and her own perception of her own experience.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmuma*
Its still my opinion and I am still allowed to it last time I checked I was still allowed freedom of speech, I am not asking you to agree with me.. I am just asking you to stop calling me names and picking my posts apart because for whatever reason they are "offending" you.. I am sorry if it offends you but I have reached a point where I have some pretty defined ideas on this stuff.

Again I am really sorry but I do not mean you any respect but how can you be soo finite when you DONT have anything to compare with? man I thought I was hardcore.

Of course I own my experience I am HUGE on that.. your obviously not real familiar with me then.. I understand what your saying.. but you took my words and personal opinions and thoughts and twisted them to make it appear like I was just on a *offend "thismama" warpath* .. and well that ain't true at all.

perhaps we just need to agree to disagree I have no problem with that.

Yup you can say whatever you want. I am asking you to own your experience and refrain from judging mine as invalid. Obviously you cannot do that, but the consequence is that I will "pick apart" your posts and tell you your words are arrogant and insulting.

I do have something to compare my attended birth with - the first part of labour where I was by myself and it began to HURT LIKE HELL! Which prompted me to call my birth attendants.







Call me crazy.

You may be "HUGE" on owning your experience, but if you look at the general comments you have made about "all" births, and at the times you have told me my own birth experience doesn't count because it doesn't match your experience, you are NOT owning your own experience in this thread. And if you would at least own THAT, we might get somewhere.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sevenkids*
I know better than to think I know better, or to think all the answers lie in a single philosophy. Truth is, there are no answers that will fit every woman's birth. All we can do is respect the process and her own perception of her own experience.











Can I come birth with you? :LOL


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*









Can I come birth with you? :LOL









Me too!


----------



## Yummymummy74 (Jun 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Yup you can say whatever you want. I am asking you to own your experience and refrain from judging mine as invalid. Obviously you cannot do that, but the consequence is that I will "pick apart" your posts and tell you your words are arrogant and insulting.

I do have something to compare my attended birth with - the first part of labour where I was by myself and it began to HURT LIKE HELL! Which prompted me to call my birth attendants.







Call me crazy.

You may be "HUGE" on owning your experience, but if you look at the general comments you have made about "all" births, and at the times you have told me my own birth experience doesn't count because it doesn't match your experience, you are NOT owning your own experience in this thread. And if you would at least own THAT, we might get somewhere.

Agree to disagree.. agree to disagree.. its a great mantra!


----------



## sevenkids (Dec 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*









Can I come birth with you? :LOL

It would be my honour.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmuma*
Agree to disagree.. agree to disagree.. its a great mantra!

Own your own experience... don't negate what other women say about their births... there's a mantra for you.


----------



## ashleep (Jul 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*









Can I come birth with you? :LOL









:LOL


----------



## Yummymummy74 (Jun 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wasabi*
MM I'm curious do you think if you are unattended but plan to have an attendant at some point during the process that then you will have pain the whole time? I don't have many friends who actually UCed but I do have many friends who labored at home until as late as possible and baiscally showed up to the hospital pushing and they all had pain. As I shared I labored at home unattended for right around 10 hours of my 13.5 hour labor. But I still had pain. Is this because I was going to have an attendant?

well I think that there is no such thing as being unattended with an attendant its sort of a giant contradiction in my books.. I think UC is more of a mindset from the start kwim? there is a different mentality that goes along with it your not just handing the power off to someone else and expecting them to give you the "good outcome" I think fear of birth is where alot of pain comes from and then I think that attendants affect you on levels you may or may not be aware of .. its interesting! really there are soo many levels to this! I think everyone is bent about my pain comments but nowhere was it discussed that anyone should define pain.. in fact I was not the one who even used the word painless in generalization I used painless about my own experience as yes it 98% was! the only uncomfortable part was when he her head and body popped out. I am not the one who invented the whole fight or flight response its a well documented fact.. in times of adrenaline surges the body shunts blood to the vital organs and if your panicking and upset in labour well .. I think thats going to cause more pain than not.

Anyhow I am getting tired of my comments getting all twisted around here :LOL


----------



## Yummymummy74 (Jun 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Own your own experience... don't negate what other women say about their births... there's a mantra for you.

Agree to disagree agree to disagree... great mantra! fabulous!


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmuma*
Agree to disagree agree to disagree... great mantra! fabulous!

Are you seriously repeating your last post? Sort of like yes, no, yes, no?

The discussion between us has degenerated. I've said my piece... several times. You are not going to get it.

Thanks everyone else for a great discussion. I'm outta here for now. May come back to the larger discussion later, as I think it's a good one.


----------



## Yummymummy74 (Jun 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
One thing that has been said before is that all births are different. My mom had 5 births and #3 was the most difficult.

Maybe part of what people are getting upset over is that you're saying that you know absolutely which factors led to your pain free birth.

But, honestly, how can you know? Do you think you could have had a pain-free UC with your first child?

I don't know, it seems like you're assuming some stuff here too, yk?

Sure all births are different I can concur with that one!







oh I do know what absolutely led to my painfree birth.. and I have already explained why







I most definately know I would not have been subjected to the horrors I was in my first birth had I have known what I know now.. and not bought into the medical model of birth







I was young I was stupid and I trusted *them* I know almost assuredly that my first birth could have been SOOO very different if I had of been left alone to do my own thing and not subjected to my attendants ideas about what my body should be doing.


----------



## Yummymummy74 (Jun 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*
Are you seriously repeating your last post? Sort of like yes, no, yes, no?

The discussion between us has degenerated. I've said my piece... several times. You are not going to get it.

Thanks everyone else for a great discussion. I'm outta here for now. May come back to the larger discussion later, as I think it's a good one.


I am just singing my peaceful song here thismama.. Agree to disagree !









Peace


----------



## gottaknit (Apr 30, 2004)

*I* personally find it rude that this thread has been hijacked to debate UC. (I'm using my *I* language, here.







)

Can we please keep it on topic. If no one is interested in the OP anymore, maybe someone should start a new thread about UC, attendants causing pain, whatever. Aren't there any mods in this forum?









To the OP: I'm sorry your homebirth was a horrible experience for you. I'm happy for you that you were able to find a way to birth your second child that brought you joy.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmuma*







oh I do know what absolutely led to my painfree birth.. and I have already explained why










Just being UC? Could it not also have had to do with having had 6 previous births? Could it not have been an 'easy' birth to begin with? Maybe you were older and wiser?

I'm not trying to argue with you. I just can't entirely relate to you.

For me, my birth was about 50 different things. Even politics! (see birth date) There were just so, so many factors. My relationship with my partner, my pregnancy, my home, my neighbors, my support, my pervious experience with birth, my mother&#8230;Not to mention, labor length, time, position, my health&#8230;the fact that I vomited the entire time :LOL

But, I really shouldn't say that, because this was my reality, you can't simply know that being unassisted was the factor of a pain-free birth. I can say that I can't relate to this kind of confidence in knowing.

I'm just having trouble relating, that's all.


----------



## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gottaknit*
*I* personally find it rude that this thread has been hijacked to debate UC. (I'm using my *I* language, here.








)

Yes, I agree. I'm sorry, OP.

I had completely forgotten. I'm sitting up with a vomiting child and needed to chat. This was not the place for it.

I'm sorry.

Back on topic&#8230;


----------



## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

I don't think I was debating UC at all. I have never said or implied that anyone should not UC. I am questioning whether UC guarantees a pain-free birth because pain is only caused by attendants but I'll check out the other thread.


----------



## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmuma*
I think UC is more of a mindset from the start kwim? there is a different mentality that goes along with it your not just handing the power off to someone else and expecting them to give you the "good outcome"

I don't think having an attendant inherently means "handing the power off to someone else". Maybe this is part of where the misunderstanding is coming from. If you can only feel like you are in control if you are alone, then maybe that does have a big impact on your perception of pain and _your ability to handle it,_ which I think is an even bigger part of the equation. But this is not true for all women - I do *not* see myself as handing control over to my midwife and absolving myself of all responsibility for the outcome, good or bad, of my birth experience.

This is really OT, even for this thread :LOL but a few pages ago the evolutionary history of the birth process was touched on - I have read that it is not actually our big heads/brains that cause pain in labor, but the fact that we walk upright. Our pelvises have become unnaturally tilted which makes it more difficult to push out a baby, and more painful. Just thought I'd throw that out there.


----------



## sarajane (Oct 20, 2004)

Quote:

Back on topic&#8230;
I'm not sure I know what the topic is exactly.







:

What exactly are we trying to talk about?


----------



## RiceMomma (Jul 23, 2004)

How sad. A poor mama comes here to post about her traumatic birth, and it turns into a nasty off-topic flame war. I agree, how very rude.

To the OP, I'm so sorry for your negative experience with your first birth. I too have had a traumatic birthing experience. Completely different circumstances-- it was an unplanned homebirth that left me thinking homebirthers must be insane! Short labor, very very intense. I've since had another baby, and come to the conclusion that I would have been more comfortable at home. :LOL But that's me. We're all different, and so is each birth. It is too bad that you weren't informed about how painful it truly could be. Sometimes I wonder if birth might be a better experience for first time moms if we'd been involved with the process before our own first births. Perhaps if birth was more a part of our culture, if we were more familiar with it, we wouldn't have to rely on books or what people tell us, we would already know what to expect- kind of- as every birth and every person is different. For me, even after taking the prepared childbirth classes and reading tons, I was not prepared for what would/could happen until I'd had my third baby- not even after my first was I prepared. Even now, I'm pregnant with my fourth, and nervous about the pain of birth. Working through those feelings, but they are there.

Hugs.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiceMomma*
How sad. A poor mama comes here to post about her traumatic birth, and it turns into a nasty off-topic flame war. I agree, how very rude.

Well yes it did turn nasty, but I'm not so sure about off topic. My interpretation of the topic is that it's about whether mamas are entitled to feel however we feel about our births, and to cope with them however we choose.

I'm sorry there is a "whether" in this topic, and that the focus hasn't been more toward supporting all mamas and sharing our experiences constructively and without judgment.


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## ramlita (Mar 26, 2002)




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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

FMB, this is for you

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=268421

OP, PM'd you!


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## gottaknit (Apr 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RiceMomma*
Sometimes I wonder if birth might be a better experience for first time moms if we'd been involved with the process before our own first births. Perhaps if birth was more a part of our culture, if we were more familiar with it, we wouldn't have to rely on books or what people tell us, we would already know what to expect- kind of- as every birth and every person is different.

This is an excellent point! Birth and mothering have become so _sterile_ and alien in our culture, that no one knows what is normal anymore. This applies to breastfeeding, also.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gottaknit*
This is an excellent point! Birth and mothering have become so _sterile_ and alien in our culture, that no one knows what is normal anymore. This applies to breastfeeding, also.

Yeah yeah yeah! I read TONNES about birth, but was still completely unprepared for how much it would hurt or how intense it would be. If I'd actually SEEN natural birth in real life I would not have been so shocked.

Same with breastfeeding. I had never seen a mama nursing before going to LLL when I was pg.

How can we expect to smoothly transition thru these earth-shaking experiences without having seen and experienced them?


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## lisamarie (Nov 19, 2001)

WOW, what an amazing, powerful, passionate thread! This forum is "Birth and Beyond" and the OP came her to talk about just that, even though it may seem like a strange place to do so. (BTW, thanks mamasaurus for coming back and checking in w/us). Even though many of us here experience natural births, every birth is different. Different levels of pain, types of birth, and choices. Everyone has their own story and opinions. Please, remember though, no personal attacks.

Warmly~

Lisa


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## mamasaurus (Jun 20, 2004)

I'm still here...

I don't quite know what to make of this whole thing, the thread I mean. I have barely had time to read through it and figure out what happened here. It really did something I never dreamed of.

I'll try and come back later when I can take time and get through all this.

But, thanks to everyone who said supportive things to me!


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

It just basically turned into a giant debate about childbirth and pain and attendants and drugs and whether women have the right to decide what made our birth experiences what they were and how we cope with labour. Some flame festing in there too. I don't think you should feel compelled to read it all if you are not interested in having your right to choose your own birth challenged. It really did get away from you - sorry about that.


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## JesseMomme (Apr 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamasaurus*
I'm still here...

I don't quite know what to make of this whole thing, the thread I mean. I have barely had time to read through it and figure out what happened here. It really did something I never dreamed of.

I'll try and come back later when I can take time and get through all this.

But, thanks to everyone who said supportive things to me!









Finally a moment to respond.

First I wanted to say that while the title seemed over the top and I can see how it made most people







(myself included) I want to dissent from the opinion that the topic does not belong here. I don't think this is 'odd" to put the post in this forum - birth and beyond. If it was homebirth, yeah, UC, yeah. But this place is more general.

I'm sorry Mamasaraus that your first birth was nothing like you pictured. I see anger and resentment over it and I think it came out via a blame on the entire 'natural birth community' who left you feeling like a fool, "duped" as you say. I don't blame you for feeling this, but I encourage you to work through your feelings on your first birth and IMO the natural birth community isn't entirely about pain-free doing it the only right way birth.

Re: Debating over degrees of pain and what factors play into pain. I think attendants _are usually_ one of a few or many factors. In my personal ancedotal experiance my first birth (attended hosp/drugs/back labor) I was never left alone by the med staff. I too wished for someone to knock me unconcious. I was so tired I blacked out between contractions and between each push. And it was so horrible on me physically that even with the knowledge my baby had been rushed off to the NICU, I could do nothing but pass out cold.

I believe, for myself, that if I had been home, maybe a _good_ midwife or maybe a UC, the labor would have been shorter, I of course wouldn't have had drugs, I probably would not have torn my perineum and cervix, and would have been free to move about to deal with the back labor, thus hopefully coping better.

IMO mamasaurus's MW probably left a few things to be desired.


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## RiceMomma (Jul 23, 2004)

I don't have a problem with the discussion topics that have gone on here, but the nastiness and the flaming is what made it rude. In my opinion, it did get a little off topic, but that happens all the time as one thing leads to another... But the name calling, the arguing, the mooning, really was completely disrespectful. Should have been taken to another thread much sooner.

Ooops, even this post is a little off topic now. :LOL

So, to the OP, please come back when you've been able to think. We're here for you.


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## Montana Mom (Jun 24, 2004)

moved post


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## Montana Mom (Jun 24, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Boobs*
You can still be a great AP mom even if you choose to not labor in pain.

You can still be a great AP Mama no matter how you became a Mama.


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## Montana Mom (Jun 24, 2004)

I am sorry that you were traumatized. I also had a traumatic birth, though my distress was caused by the medical community. Betrayal issues seem to take a long time to heal.

I'm glad you had a pleasant birth experience this time around and I hope your new baby is well.

I hope this OP does not encourage others to scrap the NCB idea, however, because I think it is very rewarding for many, if not most, women.


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## emmabella (Feb 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamasaurus*
I didn't know that my own personal pain was going to be so horrific. I felt like I was being raped or drawn and quartered or something.

Your description makes me so sad... I'm sitting here trying to find a way to respond without crying. As someone who has been raped (on two separate occasions) and is anticipating the birth of my first child, this really offends me. I'm just shocked that you would so casually refer to an act that's sole purpose is to degrade & violate women in the most intimate manner possible. If you have personally experienced rape, I grieve with you and feel so sorry your first birth renewed that pain for you. If you have not been raped, I would ask that you not use it as a reference point out of respect for those who are still dealing with the severe emotional trauma is represents.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

With all due respect, being violated while giving birth is also degrading and violating in the most intimate way possible. This woman has had 9 pages of







about her birth experience... unless you have had that experience I would suggest that you go easy.


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## Yummymummy74 (Jun 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emmabella*
Your description makes me so sad... I'm sitting here trying to find a way to respond without crying. As someone who has been raped (on two separate occasions) and is anticipating the birth of my first child, this really offends me. I'm just shocked that you would so casually refer to an act that's sole purpose is to degrade & violate women in the most intimate manner possible. If you have personally experienced rape, I grieve with you and feel so sorry your first birth renewed that pain for you. If you have not been raped, I would ask that you not use it as a reference point out of respect for those who are still dealing with the severe emotional trauma is represents.

What about those of us who are birth rape survivors.. dont tell ME thats not real until you live through it.... exact same way you feel I suppose.. I feel its a very acceptable term.







: if you think birth is not so intimate and there is not an opportunity to be violated by "strangers" then I dont know what to say to you.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

What she said.

(I can't believe I'm posting to agree with marsupialmuma.







:LOL )


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## Yummymummy74 (Jun 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama*







What she said.

(I can't believe I'm posting to agree with marsupialmuma.







:LOL )









We may agree upon more than you think!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:

Originally Posted by emmabella
I would ask that you not use it as a reference point out of respect for those who are still dealing with the severe emotional trauma is represents.










I have friend who struggled (maybe still struggles) with the many uses for the term rape. She was very violently raped and it severely offended her when people used the word rape for what's also called 'statutory rape', 'date rape' and etc. Her feelings are certainly valid and I imagine quite common with survivors.

However, I do think it comes down to language (perhaps its limitations) and allowing people to label their experiences according to how they feel.

But I wanted to tell you that I, I&#8230;well, I don't think I understand your feelings&#8230;but I just wanted to tell you my experience with my friend. :quote


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emmabella*
As someone who has been raped (on two separate occasions) and is anticipating the birth of my first child, this really offends me. I'm just shocked that you would so casually refer to an act that's sole purpose is to degrade & violate women in the most intimate manner possible. .

Unfortunately emmabella, far to many women including myself, have experienced "birth rape". Before I even knew that term, it was the only way I could describe how I felt coming out of my first birth experience.I was put through 20 hours of pure hell physically and emotionally, complete with them taking scissors and slicing me from vagina to anus, all without my consent (and all completely unnecissarily). What offends me is that everyday women giving birth are subject to horrible abuse and degridation. They ARE violated in the most intimate manner possible .
If you read more about birth rape, you may be more able to see many of the parrallels.
Women who experience either or both situations feel equally traumatized. Let's not compare who feels worse. Let's support eachother. Women should stick together in matters like this.

As someone who has been raped, you may want to consider reading up, and preparing for your labor and birth in that context. Women who are survivors of sexual abuse very often re-experiece, and or have a really hard time with the similarities between standard hospital birth, and sexual abuse. I HIGHLY recomend the book "When Survivors Give Birth" by Penny Simkin, and Phylis Klaus. It's a wonderful book.


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## sarajane (Oct 20, 2004)

I have to agree with emmebella. I have not been raped or "birth" raped. I have left an ob office feeling quite awful that is about it but, I can see that kind of degrading violation is much different than actual rape. I can see how for those who have been raped could be upset by this seemingly harmless term for bad things that happen to women at birth.

I'm not trying to downplay what happens to women in hospitals. There is a big difference though. One being, a woman in a hospital at least chose to be there in the first place (not saying what happens is all her fault either).

Grant it the word rape does have other meanings but we all know what comes to mind first....


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

With respect, being at an appt in an OBs office is NOT the same thing as giving birth. Women in hospital may or may not choose to be there, but you cant exactly walk out once you're in the middle of it. Birth giving is extremely intimate, and for me the most vulnerable I have ever been. It's interesting to me that so far only women who have not given birth are objecting to the idea of "birth rape."


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## 2+twins (Apr 20, 2004)

I can completely sympathise with birth rape survivors. I (very fortunately) have not experienced that but I have experienced something very similar during an emergency d&c due to a miscarriage gone bad. The experience was horrific. Yes, I consented to be there (because I literally almost bled out at home so this was kinda my only option other than death) but it FELT like rape. I could give more details if you really wanna know, but please believe me when I say that it was truely, truely awful (and on top of the already horrible situation of loosing my baby).
I am, of course, very sorry that you had that experience in your past. I don't think anyone who speaks of birth rape intends to downplay your experience - I hope you can see that in time.


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*







I have friend who struggled (maybe still struggles) with the many uses for the term rape. She was very violently raped and it severely offended her when people used the word rape for what's also called 'statutory rape', 'date rape' and etc. Her feelings are certainly valid and I imagine quite common with survivors.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're writing here but she had a problem with people who were raped calling it rape if there was not extreme violence involved? Stautory rape and date rape can cover a wide variety of experiences. Yes stautory rape might involve an 18 year old and a 16 year whose parents got mad but it could just as easily involve a grown man who had sex with a child who was older than 12. Surely that is still a sexual violation? And I've always just seen date rape as a way of categorizing a rape where you knew the violator. I don't think it has a legal definition like stautory rape. I can't imagine feeling that only a violation done a specific way by a specific person counts as a violation.







Sorry to go so OT but really I'm not seeing what's so inherently offensive about the use of the word rape when rape is involved. I can at least understand that idea of being offended by the use of the word rape casually almost as a synonym for being taken advantage of (say in a business context) but not in the context you seem to be giving.


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## emmabella (Feb 14, 2005)

Wow, some of you gals are nasty. I purposefully did not mention birth rape in my response to mamasaurus because it did not seem to be what she was referring to in her post. My assumption was that since she mentioned rape and being "drawn and quartered" (which obviously has NOT happened to her) in the same breath, that she was using a random word to describe her experience. I volunteer at a crisis pregnancy center and deal extensively with women who have experienced both what you would call a "traditional" rape and birth rape, where someone has willfully and maliciously violated them. Both are valid, both are horrific. However, they are different. *My only purpose of posting was to encourage people who have experienced neither circumstance to not use that reference point casually.* My heart goes out to my fellow sisters have been violated in this way.


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

I think everyone thanks you for the clarification Emily









Good luck your with babe!


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## sevenkids (Dec 16, 2002)

On the subject of birth rape;

I attended as a doula a woman having her second baby. With the first, she got a huge episiotomy that took months to heal properly. She was pretty flexible with her hospital birth, but she was firm about one thing only: NO episiotomy.
her OB and her nurse were well aware of this, as she had written a birth plan and discussed at length with the OB her fears of having another epi.
Anyway, she's pushing, and stretching nicely. Between every push, she gasped to her doctor, "Remember, don't cut me. _Please_, whatever you do, don't cut me!"
Her doc kept saying, "Stop worrying about that! Just push!"

Then I saw him pick up the scissors.

I looked him in the eye, and mouthed, "Don't you dare cut her!"
He gave me a smirk, yes, a smirk, and proceeded to cut her right into her anus.
She screamed the most heart wrenching scream I have ever heard.
What ensued after got me banned from that hospital as a doula, but whatever.

The point is, here she is, _lying_ on her back, legs wide open, at her most vulnerable moment. Here is a male in a position of authority, _standing_ between her open legs, with cutting tools at his disposal. Despite her pleas, he abused her trust in him, dis-respected her wishes, violated her most womanly parts, and committed an act of violence, for no other reason than to prove to all and sundry that _he_ was the one in control, that _he_ held the power of mutilating her vagina or keeping it intact in his hands, and there wasn't jack she could do about it.
Not only would she have to bear the physical pain of that episiotomy (more like a vaginal cesarean, IMO) for months, but she will have to bear the psychological and emotional trauma of having her doctor, whom she trusted with her well-being, betray her and violently assualt her.
She could not hold still for the repair, and despite her objections, got demerol injected into her IV. (She said that she had severe reactions to demerol, it made her violently ill and she could still feel everything, so her OB told her either she took the demerol or he was going to leave her split wide open.) She reacted to the demerol like she said, vomiting all over herself and screaming from the pain she was helpless to escape.


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## Yummymummy74 (Jun 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sevenkids*
On the subject of birth rape;

I attended as a doula a woman having her second baby. With the first, she got a huge episiotomy that took months to heal properly. She was pretty flexible with her hospital birth, but she was firm about one thing only: NO episiotomy.
her OB and her nurse were well aware of this, as she had written a birth plan and discussed at length with the OB her fears of having another epi.
Anyway, she's pushing, and stretching nicely. Between every push, she gasped to her doctor, "Remember, don't cut me. _Please_, whatever you do, don't cut me!"
Her doc kept saying, "Stop worrying about that! Just push!"

Then I saw him pick up the scissors.

I looked him in the eye, and mouthed, "Don't you dare cut her!"
He gave me a smirk, yes, a smirk, and proceeded to cut her right into her anus.
She screamed the most heart wrenching scream I have ever heard.
What ensued after got me banned from that hospital as a doula, but whatever.

The point is, here she is, _lying_ on her back, legs wide open, at her most vulnerable moment. Here is a male in a position of authority, _standing_ between her open legs, with cutting tools at his disposal. Despite her pleas, he abused her trust in him, dis-respected her wishes, violated her most womanly parts, and committed an act of violence, for no other reason than to prove to all and sundry that _he_ was the one in control, that _he_ held the power of mutilating her vagina or keeping it intact in his hands, and there wasn't jack she could do about it.
Not only would she have to bear the physical pain of that episiotomy (more like a vaginal cesarean, IMO) for months, but she will have to bear the psychological and emotional trauma of having her doctor, whom she trusted with her well-being, betray her and violently assualt her.
She could not hold still for the repair, and despite her objections, got demerol injected into her IV. (She said that she had severe reactions to demerol, it made her violently ill and she could still feel everything, so her OB told her either she took the demerol or he was going to leave her split wide open.) She reacted to the demerol like she said, vomiting all over herself and screaming from the pain she was helpless to escape.

Right and thats about it, I dont think its wise to dispute the modality of a rape.. as we can see scissors or penis or whatever! rape is rape.. a violation of one against their will that leaves them helpless to fight their attacker.









That poor woman.. did she have any recourse sevenkids? could she sue him?


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emmabella*
Wow, some of you gals are nasty. .

Hmm..I didn't notice any "nasty" responces...most of us were clarifying our view.
I do thank you for your clarification, but I still don't think that when a women describes her birth experience as being like a rape, that she is using the term "lightly". Rape IS a strong word, and often the only word that even comes CLOSE to describing how violated a woman felt after a traumatic birth experience. I don't think it demeans the word at all. JMO


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

What a horrible, horrible thing to have happened 7.


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## sevenkids (Dec 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmuma*

That poor woman.. did she have any recourse sevenkids? could she sue him?

I encouraged her to write a letter of complaint to the cheif of obstetrics, and cc it to FOGS (Florida Ob/Gyn Society) ACOG, AHCA (association for health care administration) and several other groups, but it didn't get too far. He of course, stated she was non-compliant and her baby was in danger







and that her doula (me) was interfering and influencing her against medically appropriate treatment.
This particular hospital has one of the highest maternal/infant morbidity rates in south Florida.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wasabi*
Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're writing here ...

I'm very concerned that you may have misunderstood me but I think you would if you read it in the context of why I posted that story I think you would understand.

If you're still not sure why I posted what I did or what I meant or what I think my friends feelings are about, please, please ask because you are definitely misunderstanding me.

Please let me know about this because I really hate to be misunderstood about things of a personal nature. Please let me know.









Please feel free to question me and why I posted or even ask me to edit but please don't question my friend's feelings. Sorry, maybe it was not appropriate to mention them.

Urgh&#8230;what a bad feeling.


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

ICM, It is your friend's feelings and you chimed in. I don't think it was anything inappropriate at all. You were just speaking from another POV you have seen.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:



However, I do think it comes down to language (perhaps its limitations) and allowing people to label their experiences according to how they feel.

But I wanted to tell you that I, I&#8230;well, I don't think I understand your feelings&#8230;but I just wanted to tell you my experience with my friend.
I shared that story not to agree with the feelings but to recognize that maybe sensitivity to the word rape is common with survivors. That's all.

I thought it would be helpful. I was just trying to help.

I hadn't realized that mention the story would bring my friend's feelings into question. That was a mistake.

BTW, I made a mistake while trying to quote myself and hit the edit button on the post in question.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

OMG 7, that story is absolutely horrific.


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

I got what you were trying to say. I'm just not all there right now.


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## atomicmama (Aug 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sevenkids*
On the subject of birth rape;

I attended as a doula a woman having her second baby. With the first, she got a huge episiotomy that took months to heal properly. She was pretty flexible with her hospital birth, but she was firm about one thing only: NO episiotomy.
her OB and her nurse were well aware of this, as she had written a birth plan and discussed at length with the OB her fears of having another epi.
Anyway, she's pushing, and stretching nicely. Between every push, she gasped to her doctor, "Remember, don't cut me. _Please_, whatever you do, don't cut me!"
Her doc kept saying, "Stop worrying about that! Just push!"

Then I saw him pick up the scissors.

I looked him in the eye, and mouthed, "Don't you dare cut her!"
He gave me a smirk, yes, a smirk, and proceeded to cut her right into her anus.
She screamed the most heart wrenching scream I have ever heard.
What ensued after got me banned from that hospital as a doula, but whatever.

The point is, here she is, _lying_ on her back, legs wide open, at her most vulnerable moment. Here is a male in a position of authority, _standing_ between her open legs, with cutting tools at his disposal. Despite her pleas, he abused her trust in him, dis-respected her wishes, violated her most womanly parts, and committed an act of violence, for no other reason than to prove to all and sundry that _he_ was the one in control, that _he_ held the power of mutilating her vagina or keeping it intact in his hands, and there wasn't jack she could do about it.
Not only would she have to bear the physical pain of that episiotomy (more like a vaginal cesarean, IMO) for months, but she will have to bear the psychological and emotional trauma of having her doctor, whom she trusted with her well-being, betray her and violently assualt her.
She could not hold still for the repair, and despite her objections, got demerol injected into her IV. (She said that she had severe reactions to demerol, it made her violently ill and she could still feel everything, so her OB told her either she took the demerol or he was going to leave her split wide open.) She reacted to the demerol like she said, vomiting all over herself and screaming from the pain she was helpless to escape.


HOLY $H!T I'm sick! Please tell me she sued the hell out of that SOB????!!!!


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## RiceMomma (Jul 23, 2004)

Quote:

Then I saw him pick up the scissors.
I'm beginning to wonder how common this is. I know it happened to one freind of mine- she had made it clear to her doctor that she didn't want a episiotomy and afterwards, her doc told her she tore, but another freind was in the room at the time and watched him cut her. My freind giving birth was never told what really happened, but it makes me sick to wonder how many women are being violated and they don't even know.


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

I'm gasping at the story told by sevenkids. Unbelievable.

ICM I'm sure feeling sensitive about the use of the word is common among most/all rape survivors. I was just having trouble with the part about feeling other rape victims weren't allowed to have ownership of that word unless they were raped a certain way which I would imagine would be incredibly hurtful to those victims. But I'm relieved that I misunderstood what you were posting.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

That birth rape story made me so angry. I don't know what you did to get yourself banned, sevenkids, but I hope it comes close to what I would like to say/do to that doctor.


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## sevenkids (Dec 16, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd*
That birth rape story made me so angry. I don't know what you did to get yourself banned, sevenkids, but I hope it comes close to what I would like to say/do to that doctor.









basically a screaming match with the doctor that nearly turned to blows until a nurse called security and had me removed







:

I thought about waiting in the parking lot for him (harkening back to my thug days) but my dh talked me out of it after I called him fuming and crying.
I'm still really hurt by that birth, even though it was years ago.


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## doctorjen (May 29, 2003)

I think that stories as flat out horrifying as sevenkids are rare, but I think unfortunately that stuff similar to this happens all the time.
I have a friend TTC #2 who made a special appt with her doc the first time to discuss the fact that she did not want an episiotomy under any circumstances. He told her he would "try" and would not make any kind of commitment. During delivery, he cut a midline episiotomy telling her her "vagina was just too small." She pushed 26 minutes for a 6 lb 9 oz baby. She actually healed pretty well, and did not have a lot of discomfort. However, she now believes that she just has "too small of a vagina" and her episiotomy was truly needed, when really that doc just cuts everybody and never had any intention of honoring her wishes. (I practice at the same hospital)
I think this type of situation happens all the time - and women are left to feel that their bodies are inadequate and faulty, and thank goodness the doc was there to save them.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

sevenkids . . .








OMG. That is just beyond horrible.

ETA: To the OP . . .This is what I think. I think I can't judge you or your actions, period. I think it would be ridiculous of me to assume that the way you and I experience pain is the same, so how can I put myself in your place?

I don't even have a problem with you mentioning how happy you were with your decisions for the 2nd birth on this forum . . .I can see how people would be, because this type of thing is all too common on mainstream boards (extolling the benefits of such a birth), and it seems frustrating to deal with it here. But, I look at your post and realize that I am LUCKY that I didn't have that kind of labor experience (like your 1st), and I credit my body for that (not the horrible residents at the hospital).


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

I hope that doctor is not still practicing medicine. Routine episiotomies are one thing (and bad enough), but that was downright sadistic.

OK, so... ten pages into this thread, I have to ask - what exactly *is* an intrathecal???? I assume it's like an epidural but I have never heard this term before.







Can someone enlighten me?


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## Jane (May 15, 2002)

it just means "in the spine" and is used in this context to mean what is usually called an epidural (epidural means "next to the dura").


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *doctorjen*
He told her he would "try" and would not make any kind of commitment. During delivery, he cut a midline episiotomy telling her her "vagina was just too small." She pushed 26 minutes for a 6 lb 9 oz baby. She actually healed pretty well, and did not have a lot of discomfort.

Same thing happened with my #2. I did leave it up to him since I put it that I'd preferred not to have an epis (I was only 18 and still not really realizing these were my choices). When the time came as he was cutting me he just said that I needed one and I said ok. Didn't think a thing of it. At that point I didn't even realize choosing to tear was really an option. I was lucky and did not have trouble healing and I don't think it was a big cut but still. I think unfortunately this does happen to a lot of women.


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## homebirthing (Nov 10, 2002)

It is more common then you think to have disgusting men and women who like to cut. It is one of the worst not talked about abuses out there. I am trying to get it into the REAL Vagina Monologues. The more women who know, the better!


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## Oh the Irony (Dec 14, 2003)

This reminds me of some of the conversation in the Feminist Mamas Rollcall in FYT.

You know, I think those doctors are sometimes more inclined to do these actions to women who take charge of what they want in labor. What an awful, awful story sevenkids. I'm livid.


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## doctorjen (May 29, 2003)

"You know, I think those doctors are sometimes more inclined to do these actions to women who take charge of what they want in labor."

Absolutely. I happen to know the nurse in attendance at the friend's delivery, and she was quite sure the doc cut her because she'd asked him not to. It wouldn't do to have women thinking they have some kind of choice you know.

And intrathecal is not quite the same as an epidural. Epidural means the space around the spinal cord, while intrathecal is in the spinal space. Intrathecals are not as commonly used, but are becoming more popular at teaching/larger hospitals.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Thanks, Apricot and doctorjen.


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## WinterBaby (Oct 24, 2002)

Sevenkids, the story alone is going to give me nightmares. I'm so sorry you had to witness it and even more sorry that any woman had to experience it. I guess it all plays in to my fears (probably unreasonable) of being subject to the power of others in a hospital birth which is what led me to the homebirth of my first. And it hurt. But pain was the least of my worries, and irrespective of the pain it's the same choice I'll make for the next one - Circling back to the OP. For me, I've more fear of psycological trauma than purely physical birth pain perhaps. However, I think we all have a similar need to find a birth that is empowering and not traumatic for us, whatever that is, any debate over pain meds aside.


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## Yummymummy74 (Jun 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *doctorjen*
"You know, I think those doctors are sometimes more inclined to do these actions to women who take charge of what they want in labor."

Absolutely. I happen to know the nurse in attendance at the friend's delivery, and she was quite sure the doc cut her because she'd asked him not to. It wouldn't do to have women thinking they have some kind of choice you know.

And intrathecal is not quite the same as an epidural. Epidural means the space around the spinal cord, while intrathecal is in the spinal space. Intrathecals are not as commonly used, but are becoming more popular at teaching/larger hospitals.

THis is just downright scary.. I have avoided being cut by informing my past attendants quite literally "you cut me I sue you" and to be honest they listened.. they had too, its an offense here to conduct any medical procedure without consent..a serious one. I just cannot begin to fathom this.. I feel such pain for womyn who are being violated like this.. it just makes you want to turn the scissors on the offending "attendee"







:


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## JesseMomme (Apr 6, 2002)

7kids, I am just, wow, I am really about to cry. Damn


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## crazy_eights (Nov 22, 2001)

I'm coming in w-a-y late on this, but re: fast labors. With my first - 4 hours, manageble (I was 4 cms a week before I ever went into labor, so I'm sure that helped)
#2 - 5 hours, nuchal hand, smaller baby and I can truly say I only felt 'discomfort'
#3, #4 and #5 - just under 2 hours, 1 1/2 hour and 50 minutes and they were all overwhelming. Hurt like a @#($*&, the faster they were, the more so.
#6 - brow presentation, 3 hours (most of them at 8 cms), but managable with ctx. only ever 5 minutes or so.

Oh, I should mention - all with midwives, 3 at a hospital birth center, 3 at home.

I think there are so many variables. But I am astounded that there are people that still think that if you 'relax properly' or 'aren't afraid' or have the right attendant that it won't hurt!


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## NoraB (Dec 10, 2002)

Quote:

If you have personally experienced rape, I grieve with you and feel so sorry your first birth renewed that pain for you. If you have not been raped, I would ask that you not use it as a reference point out of respect for those who are still dealing with the severe emotional trauma is represents.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emmabella*
Wow, some of you gals are nasty. I purposefully did not mention birth rape in my response to mamasaurus because it did not seem to be what she was referring to in her post. My assumption was that since she mentioned rape and being "drawn and quartered" (which obviously has NOT happened to her) in the same breath, that she was using a random word to describe her experience. I volunteer at a crisis pregnancy center and deal extensively with women who have experienced both what you would call a "traditional" rape and birth rape, where someone has willfully and maliciously violated them. Both are valid, both are horrific. However, they are different. *My only purpose of posting was to encourage people who have experienced neither circumstance to not use that reference point casually.* My heart goes out to my fellow sisters have been violated in this way.

I imagine that, to most women, the word "rape" conjures up the most terrible sense of violation possible. To say that a woman who has not been raped according to a certain definition has no right to use the word is highly disrespectful. Feelings are so subjective and there are many ways to violate another person.

I had a c/s w/ my DD. Afterward, I felt terribly violated by the surgery. I couldn't help thinking over and over about how the doctors had their hands _inside_ my body, how they had handled my internal organs and discussed them like so many bits of meat. I did feel raped. Is it okay for me to use that word b/c I was sexually abused as a child? If I had not been, would I have no claim to it?

Birth is profoundly sexual, whether we always aknowledge it or not. I have had surgery before and not felt that sense of terror and violation. Yet, w/ my c/s (scheduled and ultimately _chosen_ by me to boot) I experienced horrible and completely unexpected trauma. I had many moments of irrational terror afterward. I have mostly healed, but am left w/ a profound distrust for doctors and surgery in general.

And whether the trauma was caused by malintent on the part of the doctor is not really a good measure either. I've no doubt that my doctors had no intent of causing me harm. They had no idea how the c/s would impact me. They believed it was the best possible course of action...and I agreed until I actually had the c/s. Does _that_ mean I have no claim to feel violated?

I think I can understand some of the sensitivity about the use of the word "rape." If one was recovering from rape, the idea of another using the word casually would beyond horrible. I don't think it was used casually in this context. If the discussion had been about paying too much for internet access and a person used the word "rape" that would be casual. The use of the word in the context of a traumatic birth could _never_ be called casual, IMO.


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## mamasaurus (Jun 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emmabella*
Your description makes me so sad... I'm sitting here trying to find a way to respond without crying. As someone who has been raped (on two separate occasions) and is anticipating the birth of my first child, this really offends me. I'm just shocked that you would so casually refer to an act that's sole purpose is to degrade & violate women in the most intimate manner possible. If you have personally experienced rape, I grieve with you and feel so sorry your first birth renewed that pain for you. If you have not been raped, I would ask that you not use it as a reference point out of respect for those who are still dealing with the severe emotional trauma is represents.

Hi Emily,

I am so sorry that you were raped and that I offended you. I really am. I would not intentionally try to offend someone who had been raped. Thanks for telling me how you feel. I guess I just don't know another good word or words to use right now to describe how I felt during my first birth. I've never been raped, but I can only imagine.

I wish there were other words I could use to describe how I felt. If I could try, I would say that I felt horrific pain beyond anything I could have imagined, I felt violated in my body and outside my body, I felt like someone was taking me over and using me against my will, I felt like I had no support or help from those people who were witnessing my pain, I felt lost, alone, in the dark (my eyes were closed the whole time), I felt tortured and abused.

No matter what words I use to describe the pain, it always seems that I have to come back to some sort of analogy - for example, I was going to say that I felt like I was being possessed by a demon, but of course, I wasn't. It's just a pathetic attempt at trying to describe the pain. But again, I didn't mean to offend you and I'm sorry.

edited to add: Believe me, I was not using the term "rape" casually... I thought carefully about using that word. It was the strongest word I could think of to describe my pain. Sometimes the only way you can get someone to understand you is to use a single, strong word to make a point.

I guess I've tried explaining my pain in more complete sentences to certain people (birth trauma counselors, my midwives and doula at my first birth, other doulas I interviewed for the second birth.) and they just don't get it - how bad the pain was, I mean. I really had to resort to strong language and even then, they still didn't seem to get it.

I tried and tried to explain to my second doula how bad the first birth was, and it wasn't until she was in the delivery room with me, witnessing me climbing the walls (another descriptive phrase, I wasn't actually climbing the walls...), that she understood the level of my pain.


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## Black Orchid (Mar 28, 2005)

Mamasaurus-
I have read this post many, many times and everytime I feel so badly for you. And I have actually had the thought that you were deprived of you rightfully, happy birth experience... and the word "rape" did come into my mind as I have used that word to describe my birth and post-partum experience.

I thought I would just post a definition of "rape" from dictionary.com, which is very similar to the big dictionary we have in hard copy.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dictionary.com*
rape1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rp)
n.
The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse.
The act of seizing and carrying off by force; abduction.
Abusive or improper treatment; violation: a rape of justice.

tr.v. raped, rap·ing, rapes
To force (another person) to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse; commit rape on.
To seize and carry off by force.
To plunder or pillage.

No one group has "ownership" of the term rape. People who use it to describe atrocities aren't minimizing the experiences of those who have experienced rape in another way. There are many ways to experience rape. And if you think of it... all of them involve the "Raping" of dignity from the victim. That term is frequently used to describe how people misuse the earth and resources.

Emmabella, I am truly, truly sorry that you had that awful, terrible experience... Please try to see that there are many ways to suffer loss of dignity and rape. Just as you have a right to grieve about your rape and talk about it in those terms, so does mamasaurus.


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Wow! What a thread! I hope the OP doesn't feel bad that it's gotten so OT, because there have been some really good tangential discussion here that wouldn't have happened without the OT.









So, rape. Yeah, I agree that the word does not belong only to those who've had penises forced into their vaginas. I do question whether it should be used to describe a violation that was not intended. My first birth, for instance, was emotionally and physically traumatic, mostly due to the actions of my birth attendants, including those involving my genitals. I believe that they did not perceive their actions to be harmful or forced though, so I do not call it "rape". I have however read many stories by women who used the word "rape" very appropriately to describe their birth attendants' actions, and I've read many stories that didn't use that word, but it certainly came to my mind.

On birth pain being a biological necessity: There's no evidence for this. Also, it makes no sense evolutionarily speaking. As our heads became bigger and we started walking upright, our pelvises would have evolved at the same time to accomodate this, as they needed to. The difference between us and other animals that _is_ relevant is our highly developed neocortex and our extreme dependance on it. I would bet anything that if apes came to rely on the neocortex as much as we do, that they would have as much trouble as we do giving birth. Sex is different (and more fraught with dysfunction) for us too, for that very reason.

On pain and attendants: I haven't read all of marsupialmom's posts, but I think I basically agree with her. For most women, an attendant is going to be a distraction to some degree. She may be self-conscious or inhibited, feeling observed. Or the attendant may attempt to guide her, or "ground her" with eye contact. These things stimulate the neocortex, which interferes with hormonal release, which interferes with the functioning of the uterus, which, yes, makes birth painful. How easy would it be, after all, for you to become aroused, lubricated, stretchy, and come to orgasm if a midwife was there with you? That is just straightforward physiology. There are situations I can think of in which this is not an issue, but those are pretty rare I think. Why then have women always been attended by other women in birth? Well actually, we don't know that they have. The vast majority of recorded observations we have about birth have been in patriarchal, aggressive societies, and there's some conjecture that that type of society is served by ritually disturbing the birth process in some way. Traditional and modern midwives both commonly do things to disturb the process.

That said, I _know_ that pain in birth is not all about environment. There are SO many reasons that modern women experience pain in birth, many physical. In my case my hormonal process was not disturbed by the presence of birth attendants (because they weren't there!,) but I was still in my head to some extent. I wonder if something about my lifestyle had something to do with it -- Michel Odent in his book The Scientification of Love writes that the more often we do things that facilitate the flow of oxytocin, the more open the receptor sites become to receiving oxytocin. Another factor yet is that my body is in no shape at all to give birth. I have spent so much of my life sitting in chairs, even reclining on soft surfaces. How could that not have an effect? And I have had other health issues as well that I am positive have affected my body's ability to adjust smoothly to the movement of a baby through it.


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## Crystal_clear (Jan 19, 2004)

Hang around on ICAN and you are sure to hear from women who have been both raped and had a c-section, and who feel more violated by the latter.


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## NoraB (Dec 10, 2002)

Linda,
I think you made some excellent points about pain. Many (probably even most) modern western women are not in the same physical or emotional shape that our ancestors were in (in terms of being ready to give birth). I've taken a lot of that to heart this pg and am squatting and tailor sitting like crazy.


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## mrspeeper (Jun 27, 2004)

I'm new here, but can't help but feel the point of MDC is to help support women to make informed choices around having and raising children. I am happy you found a birth option that works for you, and glad you are trying to support others by sharing your experience. I would like to think of myself as a homebirth advocate, but recognize it is not the ideal choice for everyone. The undue stress she could have been under from her perception of pain (everyone is different) imo could be just as bad as an epidural for her baby. I have seen women fight labor and in terror tense every single muscle, making a natural delivery so ugly and miserable (and longer), not beautiful or peaceful or empowering at all. I hope through making her own decisions (whatever they may be) she feels empowered and strong and justified. Congratulations, mama! We all must try to choose the best for us and our children, right?


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I wonder how much is also due to the knowledge in the back of every woman's mind that "it doesn't have to be this way?"

I mean, every woman who decides on a home or unmedicated birth knows that there are hospitals and drugs available to her and all she has to do is ask. I knew that I could ask for an epidural or c-section at any time. Especially at birth #2, I was thinking to myself that I had already had an unmedicated birth with #1 so therefore no one would judge me for taking drugs with #2.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourlittlebirds*
On birth pain being a biological necessity: There's no evidence for this.

Is there evidence that it isn't? It may not matter if there is a biological reason for pain.







Did anyone check out the evolution thread?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fourlittlebirds*
On birth pain being a biological necessity: There's no evidence for this. Also, it makes no sense evolutionarily speaking. As our heads became bigger and we started walking upright, our pelvises would have evolved at the same time to accomodate this, as they needed to.

I think that would only be true to a point, wouldn't it? It seems to me that, evolutionarily speaking, our pelvises would have to adapt enough that we _could_ give birth. As long as women had no recourse to birth control, there wouldn't be any evolutionary advantage (or disadvantage) to making the birth pain free.


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## 2+twins (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
I wonder how much is also due to the knowledge in the back of every woman's mind that "it doesn't have to be this way?"

I mean, every woman who decides on a home or unmedicated birth knows that there are hospitals and drugs available to her and all she has to do is ask. I knew that I could ask for an epidural or c-section at any time. Especially at birth #2, I was thinking to myself that I had already had an unmedicated birth with #1 so therefore no one would judge me for taking drugs with #2.

I honestly didn't know this was an option. I think I wrote this before but it never ONCE occured to me while planning either homebirth (no one mentioned it) - or during for that matter - that transferring was an option for the sake of drugs. That's one of the reasons I chose a homebirth - b/c drugs were absolutely not going to be an option. So I feel that I can say very honestly that there never was a thought in my mind that drugs were an option to *me* during childbirth. And I think that for me it made it easier to cope (because I had to).


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## ZeldasMom (Sep 25, 2004)

I have mixed feelings about the OP. On one hand I support women in getting the births that are right for them. Even those gals who choose elective cesareans. I'm glad the author of the OP got the birth she wanted the second time. One thing that sometimes pains me is how judgemental we can be of one another, and I wish there was less of that.

On the other hand, my first thought when I read the OP was that if I had read that when I was pregnant with my first baby I would have found it *very* undermining. It would have scared the crap out of me! I think that's why many pps have wondered whether the OP was appropriate. I'm struggling with how to reassure first-time moms-to-be without seeming to invalidate the OP's experience.

I will just say that many, many of us who have opted for natural childbirth have found it was difficult, but not more than we could handle.


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## Thmom (May 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greaseball*
I wonder how much is also due to the knowledge in the back of every woman's mind that "it doesn't have to be this way?"

I mean, every woman who decides on a home or unmedicated birth knows that there are hospitals and drugs available to her and all she has to do is ask. I knew that I could ask for an epidural or c-section at any time. Especially at birth #2, I was thinking to myself that I had already had an unmedicated birth with #1 so therefore no one would judge me for taking drugs with #2.

I actually strongly disagree with this... I have UC's so going to a hospital to get drugs or a section would cause me an immense amount of grief. I honestly don't believe that medication is an option for me. I've done the research and drugs just are not an option.. period.. I'd like to find an anesthia alternative if I need an emergency section.... I dunno but I wouldn't accept unsurgery related drugs in labor anymore than I would accept street drugs in labor...

Now... this said... I have attended women that have used Stadol and seen them be able to relax and handle the rest of labor better. I've also seen women have epidurals that allowed them to relax enough to dilate 5 cm in 20min and push out a baby in 10...

I think it's incrediably important for every woman to be fully aware of the risks of medication and to have the inner strength to do what is best for her and her baby without concern for the thoughts or feelings of anyone but her and her child.


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## mrspeeper (Jun 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thmom*

*I think it's incrediably important for every woman to be fully aware of the risks of medication and to have the inner strength to do what is best for her and her baby without concern for the thoughts or feelings of anyone but her and her child*.


Amen, Mama!


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

good for you. don't let anyone tell you what to think or feel about your own childbirth and body, whether they are crunchies or medical types.

the important thing is ATTACHMENT and LOVE. hold your baby tight and don't ever apologize. attachment isn't about not having pain meds during the birth. it's about attachment.


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## mandalamama (Sep 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funshine*
I wish that instead of debating whether or not birth is painful, we invited women to evaluate their own experiences/beliefs/attitudes with/about pain and we discussed what birth pain is and how it is different from other types of pain, like pain related to infection, injury, surgery. Birth pain, for the majority who experience it, is a physiological pain caused by our body doing a normal thing, and can be useful to us in labor. The other types of pain, with which most of us have much more experience and which shape our culture's approach to pain in general, are pathological forms of pain, they tell us that something is wrong with our body.

if a separate thread hasn't already been started about this, it should be! i think this would be a fantastic discussion: "how did you feel about your birth pain?"

i mean, i might be a little weird but i LOVED labor even when it was excruciating. i had a necessary c-birth and i really regret that i didn't get to experience vaginal birth. pain or no pain, i had so strongly visualized myself reaching down to touch Willow's head as she came out and i still mourn the loss of that very deeply.

hell yeah labor was painful, especially when i went through transition - i didn't know i was in transiation at the time, my doulas were keeping track, i went through transition at least 3 times as Willow's head dipped down into the birth canal and bobbed back up on her very short, wrapped cord. i do have a high pain threshhold because i've been disabled with arthritis and fibromyalgia for many years and have developed a ton of pain-coping styles. so i wasn't afraid of the pain of birth at all, i was only afraid of interventions (hence 2 doulas!). i experienced the pains as riding the world's largest roller-coaster, sometimes it felt like cliff-diving - basically a HUGE rush of endorphins that helped me ride the waves.

i only hated the pain once i knew i had to have a c-birth, then it became an intrusion, something that wasn't welcome. because i knew it wasn't bringing my daughter any closer to me. so i think that how a woman perceives her birth environment and circumstances has a LOT to do with how much pain she'll experience.


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## orangebird (Jun 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NoraB*
I imagine that, to most women, the word "rape" conjures up the most terrible sense of violation possible. To say that a woman who has not been raped according to a certain definition has no right to use the word is highly disrespectful. Feelings are so subjective and there are many ways to violate another person.

I had a c/s w/ my DD. Afterward, I felt terribly violated by the surgery. I couldn't help thinking over and over about how the doctors had their hands _inside_ my body, how they had handled my internal organs and discussed them like so many bits of meat. I did feel raped. Is it okay for me to use that word b/c I was sexually abused as a child? If I had not been, would I have no claim to it?

Birth is profoundly sexual, whether we always aknowledge it or not. I have had surgery before and not felt that sense of terror and violation. Yet, w/ my c/s (scheduled and ultimately _chosen_ by me to boot) I experienced horrible and completely unexpected trauma. I had many moments of irrational terror afterward. I have mostly healed, but am left w/ a profound distrust for doctors and surgery in general.

And whether the trauma was caused by malintent on the part of the doctor is not really a good measure either. I've no doubt that my doctors had no intent of causing me harm. They had no idea how the c/s would impact me. They believed it was the best possible course of action...and I agreed until I actually had the c/s. Does _that_ mean I have no claim to feel violated?

I think I can understand some of the sensitivity about the use of the word "rape." If one was recovering from rape, the idea of another using the word casually would beyond horrible. I don't think it was used casually in this context. If the discussion had been about paying too much for internet access and a person used the word "rape" that would be casual. The use of the word in the context of a traumatic birth could _never_ be called casual, IMO.


I was raped. I was raped by a complete stranger before I had even ever had sex. I don't have a problem with women using the word "rape" to describe their being violated at the hands of doctors. I felt "raped" after the birth of my first child. And actually I think I was more traumatized by that "rape" than the real actual rape I experienced. I am not sure which one has effected me more. But that is my opinion. I guess some people are offended by people using it in this context. As someone who has experienced both, I don't find it bothersome. And having been raped as a reference point I can totally see how the term is completely relevant.


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