# Pseudo choices



## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

This is a spin off from another thread.

What does this mean? Is it problematic?

If it means what I think it means -- giving a toddler or young child two or so options to choose from, e.g. "Do you want to clean up now or after dinner?" -- it is something I've been planning to do because I've heard it works really well. But looking at it I can see that it can be viewed as a bit manipulative. Is it problematic? Any reason to think it's a negative thing? If yes, please give me some alternatives.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Thanks so much for this thread, I really would like to hear opinions on this. For those who did not read the other thread, the pseudo choice idea is from the Unconditional Parenting book by Alfie Kohn. Basically, a pseudo choice is a disguise for punishment. Like "Would you prefer to walk in the store or sit in the cart?". The idea, obviously, being: "If you run in the shop I will put you in the cart" Now, the horrible thing is that I am quoting this dialogue (almost word by word) from a cartoon in the "Talk so that kids will listen and listen so that kids will talk" book, which I thought was a bible for GD and I used for a long while before the Unconditional Parenting. This technique never seemed to work with dc, and I just could not figure out why. Now I do!
Alternatives to pseudochoice:
- acknowledge it is boring to do X
- explain why the dc's behaviour during activity X bothers other people or may be dangerous
- make X more fun
- listen to dc for ideas to make X more fun
Any other ideas?
Mommy to dd1 4-years-old







and to dd2 2-years-old


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I completely agree with gaialice's post...

I am also a fan of honesty too, letting your child know (in rare instances) when you aren't willing to let them have a choice "I know you don't like holding my hand when we cross the street but you ran in the road twice last week so we will have to hold hands now" ---kind of thing....

I mean, reality is, sometimes we don't get a choice...even as adults, and I would prefer the honesty approach, with a valid reason why, over the *psuedo* choice example in the above post...

I don't know if "would you like to clean up now or after dinner" is a pseudo choice really. I mean, it IS presenting a choice...just because NOT cleaning up is not really an opinion (you can't leave a mess forever)...it is up to the child to decide when they do clean up...I dunno, it is kind of fuzzy to me that one...I could see myself saying something along those lines...

However, it becomes a pseudo choice of course if you really WANT (or need) them to clean up before dinner but you present a choice anyway than act adversarial when they choose the "after dinner" option...

Does that make sense?

Crap I dunno, I am just here for the beer...

jk :LOL


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Hmmm, sometimes there really are only a couple of realistic options.

Example: do you want spaghetti or tacos for dinner?

I might have several types of gourmet meals waiting to be cooked, or have some cookies, tuna fish, and chips in the kitchen, but I'd be giving the child the options that I was willing to deal with at that point.

Another example: my dd wants to wear a sundress and nothing else on a 30 degree day.

"You may wear long sleeves and long pants under the dress or choose a different outfit."

I mean, I think it's totally logical. Is there something I'm missing?


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## mamasarah (May 28, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gaialice*
Alternatives to pseudochoice:
- acknowledge it is boring to do X
- explain why the dc's behaviour during activity X bothers other people or may be dangerous
- make X more fun
- listen to dc for ideas to make X more fun


i think this is right on. i have actually been doing the pseudo choice thing not seeing the negative aspect of it but these alternatives seem like they would be a much better way of dealing with a situation.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

To me a pseudo-choice is something like "Do you want to continue to run away from me in the store or do you want to walk beside me?" because even a very small kid knows the "right" answer to this one.

"Do you want to clean up now or after dinner?"
"Do you want spaghetti or tacos for dinner?"
"Do you want to wear long sleeves and pants under your dress or choose something else to wear?"

All are examples of perfectly real choices, in my book. I think some people believe that if parents exercise any control over a child's choices, such as limiting the parameters of the choice, then that's coercive. I don't believe that. I think it's a parent's job to set appropriate parameters in a child's life.

Namaste!


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I agree DM...

My favorite too, are the REALLY pseudo choices..."DO YOU WANT A BIRTHDAY PARTY!!!" when a kid is acting up... or "DO YOU WANT A SPANKING"...

Of freaking course not...

I cringe when I hear statements to this affect...poor, poor, poor parenting...


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
"Do you want to clean up now or after dinner?"
"Do you want spaghetti or tacos for dinner?"
"Do you want to wear long sleeves and pants under your dress or choose something else to wear?"

All are examples of perfectly real choices, in my book. I think some people believe that if parents exercise any control over a child's choices, such as limiting the parameters of the choice, then that's coercive. I don't believe that. I think it's a parent's job to set appropriate parameters in a child's life.

I think those are only real choices if as a parent you are truely willing to accept either answer.

I don't usually use "choices" to get my kids to do things. I usually just use honesty and talk to them like people. I am with you though that it's my job to set appropriate parameters. I just do it very honestly.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmb123*
I think those are only real choices if as a parent you are truely willing to accept either answer.

That's the ticket, right there. Don't offer a choice if there isn't one. Don't say, "Would you like to go outside" if you WANT the child to play outside.

I don't see what's wrong with "would you like to do this now or later." That is, if you really don't have a preference yourself. If you are compelling clean up, there is nothing in the phrase "would you like to do this before dinner or after" that says otherwise. My child is two and I think he would understand that I was not giving him a choice about cleaning up.

I am surprised that Faber and Mazlish would offer a false choice. I have another of their books (Liberated Parents Liberated Children, maybe?) and they don't do that in that book.


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## lizamann (Dec 2, 2004)

I think that "do you want to walk in the store or sit in the cart" can be a real choice in the right circumstance. If you really want to know dc's preference and accept either answer, then it's a perfectly valid choice offering.

And Captain Crunchy, those REALLY pseudo choices that you mentioned I hear all the time. "Do you want a timeout?" I've heard that from plenty of self-described gentle parents. And the whole idea behind 123 Magic is that kids have the choice to comply, or not to comply and get the timeout. "You chose the timeout," seems to be a very common thing to say and feel. Not a real choice at all!


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmb123*
I don't usually use "choices" to get my kids to do things.

I don't use choices to get my kids to do thing either. I ask the choice questions to find out what they would prefer.

If it's not a choice, I don't ask a question. I would just say, "We need to clean up before dinner."

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lizamann*
"Do you want a timeout?"

I don't see that as a choice issue. I see that as a way for parents to let their kids know what will happen if they continue undesirable behavior. I don't see it as any different than saying, "If you keep doing that you will get a timeout." Just different phrasing. The desirablity of timeouts aside.

Namaste!


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## MsMoMpls (Oct 22, 2002)

This issue becomes really important when kids get a bit older. They figure out that what you are saying is do you want A (the wonderful choice that I want you to make) or B (the stupid choice I am manipulating you with) and once they see through it, the only way to really feel like they have any power in their choice is to chose what we don't want them to chose. I agree that the two choices need to be equal in our mind or it doesn't work... it is too manipulative and therefore dishonest. This is a lot more work for us, but really worth it.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmb123*
I don't usually use "choices" to get my kids to do things.

To me, this is the crux of a pseudochoice- that it is used to get someone to do something. It's not a choice, it's a ploy.

I aggree that if there is a "real" choice you will be willing to accept any answer or most answers.

Interesting topic, but gotta run.


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## Zipporah (Feb 22, 2005)

I think asking kids if they want to do something when it's really an "order" is a bad idea. Like, my stepfather used to say (in this annoying fake-cheerful voice) "Would you like to do the dishes now? Ooh, how lovely!" And it would just enrage me b/c no, i didn't want to do the dishes, but i knew i had no choice in the matter whatsoever. To this day, just thinking about it brings up negative feelings and every now and then my husband will say something in a similar way and i get really upset about it.

I know this isn't exactly the kind of "choice" the OP intended, but personally i think a choice or question is good only if it's genuine. If there is something you want a child to do which you will make them do no matter what, then for goodness' sake just tell them so. It really is the manipulation and deliberate, blithe disregard of the child's feelings that's so irritating and aggravating.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Zipporah*
If there is something you want a child to do which you will make them do no matter what, then for goodness' sake just tell them so. It really is the manipulation and deliberate, blithe disregard of the child's feelings that's so irritating and aggravating.









:


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

A couple thoughts-

I loved the Alphi Kohn quote that went somehthing like, "Saying that children choose to misbehave is like saying that poor people choose to be poor." Some things are not entirely within people's control.

That is the reason why I dislike the phrasing, "You chose a time-out." Kids would never choose a time-out! Granted, they chose to continue doing what was prohibited, but depending on the child, the circumstance, and the age, their "choice" to "disobey" may have been somewhat beyond their immediate control.

(I think kids have a lot going on in their lives that we don't give them credit for. It must be hard to learn to speak English, learn to move your mouth to pronounce words at all, learn to use every muscle in your body- even though the demensions of your body keep changing, learn to block out a million peices of info comming at you at all times and focus your attention, listen to words spoken from way up high in the sky, etc. We tend to think that kids have nothing going on but to do what we say or not. In fact, I think they are very busy.)

Anyway- Second thought-

There's a difference between choices and options. When I want dd to brush her teeth, I'll give her the option of doing it herself- or having me do it. I don't make a big deal out of it being a "choice", but she does have some control.

The truth is that all choices are constrained by some limitations- I can choose what to wear in the morning, but only from what's in my closet. I can choose what to buy, but only within my budget.

Of course our kid's choices are going to be constrained by the limits of our time, patience and money, not to mention the rules of the universe. But I think that Mr. Kohn's point is to help kids to have as much choice as possible, and most importantly the ability to make choices that we don't necessarily aggree with.

I think it's really important to learn to get behind your child's choices. Obviously we're not going to let our kids make choices that endanger their lives, or cause us physical pain, but part of growing up is learning to think for yourself. I think it's a great gift to give your child to support them in that.

So today my dd is chosing to wear a bathing suit and a ballet skirt. I'm guessing she'll pair that with her new rain boots. I would rather her wear something more "normal", and I will probably point out that bathing suits are usually for swimming and ask if she would like to change. However if she sticks to her outfit, I'll deal with my embarrassment.

She is not me. I don't need to base my sense of self on her choices.

(She'll probably change three more times today anyway, and I'll probably like at least one outfit.







)


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## FireWithin (Apr 29, 2004)

I am currently reading _Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline_. Bailey's choice suggestions bother me a bit, because they do feel manipulative.
She has it under her heading of Power of Free Will- "which reminds us to resist the temptation to try and make children mind. It asks us to acknowledge free will in others and structure situations whereby children are more likely to be cooperative. When children feel free to make choices, the value of commitment is taught."

The example is of a preschooler who had already been very appropriately guided into getting dressed for school. When the mother came back to check on her, she was naked in her toy box. The mother responded "You have a choice. You may climb out of the bin and put your shirt on, or you may climb out and put on you pants. Which do you choose?"

Now these are two fair choices, but they seem to manipulate a young child's ability to reason. The child might think oooohhh I have a choice. I am in control. While really the mother didin't present the child's preferred choice. The mother was making the choices.

Does anyone see this example as similar to the pseudo choice idea?


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mammo2Sammo*
The example is of a preschooler who had already been very appropriately guided into getting dressed for school. When the mother came back to check on her, she was naked in her toy box. The mother responded "You have a choice. You may climb out of the bin and put your shirt on, or you may climb out and put on you pants. Which do you choose?"

Now these are two fair choices, but they seem to manipulate a young child's ability to reason. The child might think oooohhh I have a choice. I am in control. While really the mother didin't present the child's preferred choice. The mother was making the choices.

Does anyone see this example as similar to the pseudo choice idea?

Yes, this is an example of that kind of manipulation. Now, I am asking myself, why do I think that? The choice between putting the pants on and putting the shirt on is real, isn't it?

It's mainly the wording. If the mom had said, "Come on out of the toy box. Which would you like to do, put on your pants or your shirt?" I wouldn't have had that reaction. The issue is that it seems like there are two choices for the naked child in the box. Really there are many more! She could choose to stay in the box and cry while her mom drags her out. She could choose to run naked around the house! I wouldn't tempt fate, YKWIM?


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mammo2Sammo*
I am currently reading _Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline_. Bailey's choice suggestions bother me a bit, because they do feel manipulative.
She has it under her heading of Power of Free Will- "which reminds us to resist the temptation to try and make children mind. It asks us to acknowledge free will in others and structure situations whereby children are more likely to be cooperative. When children feel free to make choices, the value of commitment is taught."

The example is of a preschooler who had already been very appropriately guided into getting dressed for school. When the mother came back to check on her, she was naked in her toy box. The mother responded "You have a choice. You may climb out of the bin and put your shirt on, or you may climb out and put on you pants. Which do you choose?"

Now these are two fair choices, but they seem to manipulate a young child's ability to reason. The child might think oooohhh I have a choice. I am in control. While really the mother didin't present the child's preferred choice. The mother was making the choices.

Does anyone see this example as similar to the pseudo choice idea?


Sounds manipulative to me, too.

I'd say, "you have to get out of the toy box and get dressed." (Pause to let that sink in.) "What would you like to wear to school today?"

I think an importantpart of choice and free will is being very clear about what we have no control over. Isn't there a saying like "Change what you can't live with, and live with what you can't change?"


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*

She is not me. I don't need to base my sense of self on her choices.

Exactly-- so many parenting decisions seem to be based on this kind of 'reflective' egoism.

And of course, you can always rotate the clothes that are out for the picking so that they co-ordinate to your liking, more or less. It is, once again, offering a kind of controlled choice. Personally, I think it's good to keep some toys and clothes put away so that when they are brought out they are more special.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mammo2Sammo*
The example is of a preschooler who had already been very appropriately guided into getting dressed for school. When the mother came back to check on her, she was naked in her toy box. The mother responded "You have a choice. You may climb out of the bin and put your shirt on, or you may climb out and put on you pants. Which do you choose?"

Now these are two fair choices, but they seem to manipulate a young child's ability to reason. The child might think oooohhh I have a choice. I am in control. While really the mother didin't present the child's preferred choice. The mother was making the choices.

I see what you are saying, but I really have no problem with this example. Staying naked in the toybox is not an option here (I'm assuming it's time for school). I know that with my daughter, if I directly tell her that she can't stay naked or that she has to get out of the toybox, I'm going to be met with resistance. If I tell her she can get out and put on her shirt or get out and put on her pants, she understands that staying naked in the toybox is not an option, but she won't feel like I have directly given her the opportunity to refuse. Is the phrasing manipulative? I don't think so, but even if I did, if my daughter is manipulated and happy rather than honestly directed and angry, why is the manipulation thing bad? I think there is a HUGE difference between manipulation for someone else's own personal gain and manipulation (if you can even call it that) of the situation so that things flow smoothly and the things that need to get done get done, with everyone happy.

Namaste!


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*
But I think that Mr. Kohn's point is to help kids to have as much choice as possible, and most importantly the ability to make choices that we don't necessarily aggree with.

I didn't read this book. Do you mean he thinks we should provide them with as many choices as possible, or do you mean he thinks kids should be allowed to make as many of thier own choices as possible?

[


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I see what you are saying, but I really have no problem with this example. Staying naked in the toybox is not an option here (I'm assuming it's time for school). I know that with my daughter, if I directly tell her that she can't stay naked or that she has to get out of the toybox, I'm going to be met with resistance. If I tell her she can get out and put on her shirt or get out and put on her pants, she understands that staying naked in the toybox is not an option, but she won't feel like I have directly given her the opportunity to refuse. Is the phrasing manipulative? I don't think so, but even if I did, if my daughter is manipulated and happy rather than honestly directed and angry, why is the manipulation thing bad? I think there is a HUGE difference between manipulation for someone else's own personal gain and manipulation (if you can even call it that) of the situation so that things flow smoothly and the things that need to get done get done, with everyone happy.

Namaste!

The situation could be looked at as "positive framing" too. Or softening your "force" by offering choices to restore a sense of self determination. If it works for you, your kids must take it the right way.

My dd does better when limits are really spelled out. Rushing to the solution tends to make her more angry than dealing with reisiatence head on.

These discussions are always challenging because each kid "hears" differently. What matters is how a child hears it, not what is said.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmb123*
I didn't read this book. Do you mean he thinks we should provide them with as many choices as possible, or do you mean he thinks kids should be allowed to make as many of thier own choices as possible?

[

The second one... Not like we should offer up "or you could do this, or this, or this." But more along the lines of "what would you like to do?"

I think (of course my interpretation here) that he means kids should be given the opportunity to makechoices in as many areas as possible that affect them.

I figure, obviously they can't determine where they live or what jobs mommy and daddy have, but they can have some say in what they wear or eat, or how they spend their time.

I think a lot of this is helping kids form their own options.

(I was raised super controlled and very school programmed. I had a terrible time learning to think for myself once no one was telling me what to do. )


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## Dal (Feb 26, 2005)

Thanks for the responses! I love this site!









Can't write more now, but all of the responses really have me thinking.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
. Is the phrasing manipulative? I don't think so, but even if I did, if my daughter is manipulated and happy rather than honestly directed and angry, why is the manipulation thing bad?

I'd still choose the honesty. If I were in the naked kid in the toy box situation- I'd assume there was some sort of reason my once dressed kid chose to get naked and crawl into a box. I would ask them what they were doing? (I don't want to go..didn't like my outfit...whatever). Talk about the issue, help them out of the box, help them get re-dressed and go.








To me the whole, do you want to put on the pants first or the shirt first skips over why the heck your kid is chosing to be naked in a box. I'd wanna know why so I can give them ideas of what to do next time they were feeling that way. KWIM?
Sometimes kids do get angry at honesty. I don't mind- I'd rather true emotion than trickery.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

I think a lot of parents' discomfort in guiding and redirecting children stems from an intense discomfort of displays of strong emotion.

If you were raised in a house where crying wasn't done in front of kids, or was considered "weak" or "shameful"... or where parents were arguing and raising their voices a lot, at each other and/or their children... etc. etc. etc., you probably feel very uncomfortable with displays of strong emotion and want to try to "save" yourself and your child from feeling these emotions as much as possible.

No one wants to see their child angry or sad... especially if their child is ultra emotional and seems angry or sad or tantrums constantly, much like my own five yo. child. I think that some parents, in an attempt to squash these uncomfortable situations before they arise, are actually doing more harm than good at their persistent attempts to thwart these self-perceived "negative" emotions.

So you have the two extremes of the pseudo choice: "Do you want a time out???!!!", which is the forceful attempt at cooperation; and

"Would you like to wear a dress or pants? Huh, honey? Which one? You have to pick... you can't be naked... we're going to be late... which one, honey? Tell momma what you want to wear..." all the while talking in sugary sweet voices and basically pleading with the child to cooperate.

Both are manipulative and can be harmful, each in their own way. I think the key is to find a balance between firmness and fairness while offering real choices when they are available.


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## danaalex (Mar 19, 2003)

i try to give my 4 yo choices. she seems to like it. i don't 'think' most of my choices are manipulative though. i do resort sometimes as a last ditch effort to get her to do something.

like if she wants to go to the park but doesn't want to get dressed, i tell her she has two choices. she can either get dressed and go to the park, or she can stay undressed and not go to the park. i'm cool with either decision especially if she is the one who wants to go. having three children at home i find that my 4yo does more if i let her decide.

she had wanted to go to the library yesterday, but she refused to get dressed. i had to get her two little sisters dressed, so i left the choice up to her. she chose NOT to get dressed until after it was too late to go to the library. so i told her that if she got dressed by 11a we could go to the park, she chose to get dressed to do that. i explained to her that we couldn't go to the library because she chose to not get dressed. she understood.

i do use an ultimatum type approach when i am at my wits end trying to get her to do something. IMO anything that doesn't involve yelling, name calling, hitting, etc. is a better choice. for example, we need to leave wherever we are. i will usually tell her she has two choices, she can leave agreeably and go home and do something fun, like get a snack or watch a movie, or color. or she can stubbornly leave and not have one of those things. either answer is fine by me. of course she usally chooses to get the snack, etc LOL. (again i have three kids and she is the oldest and therefore the only one who really understands anything i say LOL.)

maybe not ideal, but last resort, and short of yelling at her or something along those lines........ i think it's a fine alternative.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I have thought for quite a while that using choices to encourage a desired behavior or get things flowing is manipulative. I'm happy to read this thread (although I haven't finished).

I'll read more and post.

My one thought right now is that, although I find it manipulative, I do still do it from time to time because I find it to be preferable to some other, less than ideal, "strategies".

Incidentally, every time I discuss relating to children as a strategy, trick, technique, method and etc. a red flag goes up for me, yk?


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candiland*

"Would you like to wear a dress or pants? Huh, honey? Which one? You have to pick... you can't be naked... we're going to be late... which one, honey? Tell momma what you want to wear..." all the while talking in sugary sweet voices and basically pleading with the child to cooperate.

.

There's a fine line between negotiating and pleading for cooperation. I use negotiation all the time. It is generally faster than force and involves less screaming. I wouldn't say I ever "plead" or even try to "convince".

I find that tryng to convince kids doesn't work very often (at least not mine.) My step mom tries this all the time and it drives me insane. I feel like telling her- my kid knows her mind and she doesn't agree with you, just let it go. If you want to make her do something, that's one thing. If not, let it frickin' go.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I think that honesty is the central issue for me. The way I realized there was a problem was the stage where DD figured out that some of the choices I was giving her weren't ALL the choices available. (like what Mammo2Sammo said) For me, giving choices to my toddler was an unconscious way of distracting her from all her options. It felt dishonest all along and I didn't realize why until my child became aware of the deception and I think felt quite betrayed.

Yes, there were real choices and then there were the 'others'. We certainly never did the "Do you want a timeout now or later?" thing :LOL but I have done something along the lines of, "You can decide if you want to stay or go but I need you to stop that if you want to stay." And, I agree, the difference between this and the more punitive sounding, "If you don't stop that we are leaving," is very subtle.

Another thought I had after reading MommyofShmoo's post is that I have control issues ~ I HATE to control other people. I think "pseudo choices" kind of helped me stay in denial about controlling some things for my child. After my child showed me that she felt I had betrayed her I became more focused on trust and honesty and tried to get over my 'issues' with not wanting to control her when I felt it was necessary.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*
I'd say, "you have to get out of the toy box and get dressed." (Pause to let that sink in.) "What would you like to wear to school today?"

This is what it looks like and saying things this way (or similar) feels infinitely better to me than distracting her from the fact that I want her to get dressed (even though she doesn't want to).

These things may also be tied to wanting to avoid and shield her from disappointment and frustration (like Candiland said). Sometimes it's more important to me that we just not have a big issue and I still used this method. It just feels good to me to save it for 'emergencies' YK?

Great thread!!

What's the original that this spin off was taken from, btw?


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

One more thing, even thought I said I think it can be manipulative, I still think this falls in line with one of those less than ideal choices we sometimes find ourselves making as parents. I just think it's great to recognize that it is not ideal if it feels that way to us. Recognizing that I sometimes make less than ideal choices of find myself in a place where all I have are less than ideal choices has actually been very liberating for me.

I once asked a friend if she thought she had made the "right" choice. She answered that she felt she had made and "okay" choice.


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## dalbert (Oct 16, 2002)

If I give my dd (3 1/2) two choices and she doesn't like either, she simply says "No, I want....". There's no fooling her into thinking that the option she came up with is not a valid choice. So, I have to phrase it more like "I would like for you to do X or Y, which one sounds better to you?" Then if she says she wants Z, then we have to talk about why I'm not comfortable with Z and bring it back to how she feels about X and Y. If she doesn't like either, then we think together about what other alternatives there might be. But sometimes she's just looking for a conflict because she needs to release some pent up feelings, so then we forget about X, Y, and Z and just focus on letting some feelings out (i.e. tantrum mode). Other times, she just needs to re-establish our connection, so she's being disagreeable in order to get my attention. That's when I switch gears into play, dance, hug, tickle, whatever mode. (Of course, my ability to determine which response is best is directly linked to how tired, impatient, stressed, etc. I'm feeling. Unfortunately, if any of these conditions are coming into play for me, I'm less likely to make the right choice in my response and end of dealing with it in a way that I regret!)

So, I guess what I'm saying is that for us, the choices issue is dependent on whether dd is in a space to really consider choices, and if and only if she is (and if I am able to correctly asses this!







), it frequently leads to a discussion about how each of us feels about the different choices.

- di


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## alaska (Jun 12, 2004)

Maybe I simplify it too much. I didn't read Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline (still love the book, still hate the title) to offer any manipulative choices or to suggest parents engage in offering "psuedo-choices" but perhaps that is because I impliedly read into her advice what has been described above.

In the naked toy bin example - I would've started out the exchange that he can't stay in the toy box naked though it might be a really fun thing to do right now, because we have to leave the house and go ________. so he gets to make a choice, does he want to put on his pants first or his shirt (or which shirt do you want to wear, or do you want to get dressed or do you want mommy to dress you this morning, etc.) I don't see any of those exchanges as manipulative or false choices. He knows why we're doing something and why he can't stay in the toy bin, but he still has some control over how we get out of the house.

I don't believe that one's choices always have to include a "positive" and a "negative" - for example, it's not always goign to be "do you want to clean up your room or go outside and play?" Sometimes we have to choose between two not so great options (do you want to clean up your room before your bath or after your bath?). I don't believe it's manipulative to teach my son that. I just take care not to falsely characterize the choices as "fun" when they're not, and I always try to explain to him what the context is (what we're trying to accomplish as a family - keeping a clean house - or he and I - getting out of the house to make an appointment on time.)

I also have had occassion to do this - which I'm guessing that some will characterize as a "psuedo-choice": there are situations we get into where he doesn't have a choice - walking in parking lots for example. The rule is he can walk and hold mommy's hand, or I'm going to carry him. So leaving the park the other day, he is not cooperating. I kneeled down and told him that there are a lot of cars in parking lots, it can be very dangerous, and that the rule is he can hold my hand and walk by himself or I can carry him... which does he choose. When he flops down on the ground and screams at me - if you cannot make a choice right now, mommy is going to choose to pick you up - which I do. Or when it's time to leave the park and he's not cooperating - five minute warning has done no good, he's simply not ready. Asking if he wants to walk to the car like an elephant or a lion (which almost always works) falls flat... he just doesn't want to leave. In those situations I tell him that he doesn't have a choice about whether we leave, we have to leave now. He can walk by himself or mommy is going to have to carry him to the car. Which would he like to do? I don't view that as manipulative or a psuedo choice, but reading some of the pps, it appears others might.

don't know if my comments add anything to the discussion but there you go.
Amy


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## Silliest (Apr 4, 2004)

Just a quick note: I also try to model my own decision making for the kids. Usually on really small things:

"Gosh, I'd *really* like to wear my blue t-shirt today, but it's dirty. I guess I'll wear the pink one instead."

But sometimes on bigger things, too:

We *really* like this house, but we can't afford it, so we're going to buy this other one instead, because it's nice enough, and we *can* afford it.

I dunno how much of it they take in ;-> But every now and then i hear them playing out similar scenarios, so something must be filtering through ;-p


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## FireWithin (Apr 29, 2004)

From reading all of the pp, I think that choice presentations depend on the age of the child and the child's frame of mind.
Prior to age 2, I might give my DC a choice (similar to the naked child one), even if it was manipulation. I think giving more choices, or framing it in a more complicated, although honest, way might be too much info to absorb. This could just be confusing and upsetting to a child not ready for extra info.
I am considering doing the following for my verbal 2 year old. Still giving similar choices, but framing it with an acknowledgment of what needs to get done, and here are two ways to do it.

When I felt that he could absorb this info, I might begin to ask him to help suggest a choice that will lead to my desired end.

When even older, I might frame my choices more, becoming more honest, and use other parenting tools rather than choices. One pp said that you have to be careful with pseudo choices as they get older, because they can see through them, and for me, it feels disrespectful to their intelligence.

ack need to go, toddler out of bath.








:LOL







:LOL - smilies per DS request


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

Well, coming from a special education teacher and therapist, I am constantly giving my students choices. But I have a different perspective because many of my students need to learn that they HAVE choices and that they can self-advocate by making them. Furthermore, they often have to do difficult tasks and activities or things they might rather not do. And there may not be an option to NOT do the activity. Sure, my student might like to spend all day bouncing on his exercise ball but that's not going to allow him time to learn or interact with others.

In order to do this, I am constantly giving choices so that they learn to make them on their own, and so that they have some control over what we are doing even when they don't have total control. For example, it's time to do some table work - What activity do you want to do? (present picture choice of activities) or when we read books, sometimes I let a student pick out his own books but other times I need to introduce new books to him since children with autism often perseverate on the same toys/books, etc. When I need to do that, I'll often choose two new books and let him choose which we read, and whether he reads with me or by himself.

Basically, almost all of the time all choices are positive - I am happy for my students to choose whichever option they choose. I don't give them a choice hoping they'll choose a particular one. And I don't ask questions that are rhetorical such as one of my fellow teachers did last week "Do you want to work on your journal with me?" during playtime. Of course every child said "No!" because they were already entrenched in their play. I said to her, "You're phrasing it wrong! You should say "It's time for you to do your journal with me" to one child. Occasionally I do ask questions like "Do you have your kindergarten voice here or do you need to go and find it?" when a child is being disruptive to give them a chance to get themselves together before being instructed.

It is surprising how many times adults phrase instructions as questions. I believe it's very important to distinguish between questions and instructions so that our children know which is which and when they have a choice.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Am I the one who said psuedo choice? Was I talking about Love and Logic? I was trained in this and our trainer made us practice giving kids choices but I am not good with coming up with what I see as a negative psuedo choice that doesn't sound too fake, but will make the kid choose the choice that I want them to choose.

At times there are legitimate choices to make, like do you want an apple or a banana with your lunch? The problem is when I only have bananas but if I just give it to ds he might protest so I make up something stupid like do you want a banana or lima beans with your lunch?

I do feel like I am manipulating and taking advantage of a kid's ability to reason as a pp said. It's just that it works usually and makes our day go by smoothly and something has to be said for that







.


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PikkuMyy*

It is surprising how many times adults phrase instructions as questions. I believe it's very important to distinguish between questions and instructions so that our children know which is which and when they have a choice.

Very well said...... I completely agree!


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## LizD (Feb 22, 2002)

<<It is surprising how many times adults phrase instructions as questions. I believe it's very important to distinguish between questions and instructions so that our children know which is which and when they have a choice.>>

Have to chime in with my agreement here too. I don't see what's wrong with "Which sweater will you wear, the blue or the red?" But there's a LOT wrong with "Do you want to put on your sweater now?" when the real instruction is "Time to put on your sweater, please." Giving the small child too many choices can also lead to insecure, whiny children, I think. It's important to find a balance of choices/nonnegotiables that meets the ever-changing needs of the individual child. There's no formula.


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## TortelliniMama (Mar 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jmoreno*
At times there are legitimate choices to make, like do you want an apple or a banana with your lunch? The problem is when I only have bananas but if I just give it to ds he might protest so I make up something stupid like do you want a banana or lima beans with your lunch?

I think there are still valid choices that can be offered in that situation. How about "Do you want to peel your banana or do you want me to peel it for you?" or "Do you want your banana whole, or cut up on a plate?" My ds often has an opinion about whether he wants to eat banana with his hands or with a fork, too.

Of course, I could also see a kid finding the "banana or lima beans" choice funny, and that being enough to distract him from disappointment about not having another real option. Of course, in that case, you'll probably end up having lima beans chosen at least once, just to see what you'll do.


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## 2BMamaof3 (Oct 13, 2003)

Ugh. As much as I've been working on this I still find those pseudo choices coming out of my mouth. It is a tough cycle for me to break...coercing or manipulating my kids. I'm starting to recognize the patterns though. It take time, patience and practice.

Sometimes there aren't really choices. If "We have to clean up before dinner." We all clean up before dinner. Sometimes they participate and sometimes they don't. But I do make known my annoyance at kids who don't want to help clean up. Of course, they let their annoyance with me be known as well! It's quite funny (or shocking if you're not used to your kids calling you on your own b.s.).

Or, if I have banannas but no other fruit option and I want them to eat fruit...I say, "I would like you to eat some fruit with your lunch, here is a banana. They either eat the banana or not. When the occasion presents itself we talk about good nutrition and why we need to eat fruit and veggies, etc. I do have an opinion on what my kids do and eat and think...but as to whether or not they follow my advice or wishes...is a completely different thing. I say what I want...but MOST often I don't FORCE the issue. But I'm good at letting go with the food. I'm not so good about letting go in other areas. Practise...practise.

It's really ahrd sometimes. It drives me nutty at times when they "won't just do what I say!" and I find myself right in the muck of "forcing" or manipulating or coercing. More of that fine balance stuff that most of my posts end up being about.

I'm really starting to see this mothering gig (heh heh) as a spiritual practice much like meditation!

Keep on keeping on! Thanks for letting me ramble about this topic.

Abby


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## alaska (Jun 12, 2004)

Mammo2sammo said EXACTLY what I was trying to say - in about 2/3 less space :LOL


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LizD*
Have to chime in with my agreement here too. I don't see what's wrong with "Which sweater will you wear, the blue or the red?" But there's a LOT wrong with "Do you want to put on your sweater now?" when the real instruction is "Time to put on your sweater, please."


For me, it's just what you said. Giving a child a choice between the blue or red sweater when _what you really mean_ is "You need to put your sweater on," is a problem for some parents or children.

I agree that, for some kids or in some situations, using a choice to encourage cooperation is a fine choice. But, I don't think it should be used consistently in place of a more direct approach, yk?

Like with this example:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TortelliniMama*
I think there are still valid choices that can be offered in that situation. How about "Do you want to peel your banana or do you want me to peel it for you?"

Is a choice about everything necessary for many kids?

When I find myself framing everything as a choice (or some other 'strategy' for cooperation) it usually means that things are out of sync. It means that I have assumed or that I fear that she isn't going to cooperate. I find that this is not a good place to be.


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TortelliniMama*
I think there are still valid choices that can be offered in that situation. How about "Do you want to peel your banana or do you want me to peel it for you?" or "Do you want your banana whole, or cut up on a plate?" My ds often has an opinion about whether he wants to eat banana with his hands or with a fork, too.

Of course, I could also see a kid finding the "banana or lima beans" choice funny, and that being enough to distract him from disappointment about not having another real option. Of course, in that case, you'll probably end up having lima beans chosen at least once, just to see what you'll do.









Oh, see you are so much more creative than me! that is my problem. I come up with stupid choices. It just has to come out of your mouth so fast, you can't say, let me go think about the banana situation and get back to you!


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## TortelliniMama (Mar 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jmoreno*
Oh, see you are so much more creative than me! that is my problem. I come up with stupid choices. It just has to come out of your mouth so fast, you can't say, let me go think about the banana situation and get back to you!

I totally know what you mean! :LOL It's just like the way that after a toddler meltdown, I frequently feel like, "Why didn't I do X? Looking back, it's the obvious thing to do, and there's a good chance it would have defused everything!" Of course, "looking back" is the sticking point. It's never as obvious at the time. I'd be a fantastic parent if I could do it by e-mail!


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## TortelliniMama (Mar 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
For me, it's just what you said. Giving a child a choice between the blue or red sweater when _what you really mean_ is "You need to put your sweater on," is a problem for some parents or children.

I agree that, for some kids or in some situations, using a choice to encourage cooperation is a fine choice. But, I don't think it should be used consistently in place of a more direct approach, yk?

So, would you not be in favor of consistently saying something like, "You need to put a sweater on. Do you want the red one or the blue one?", and instead prefer to just stop after the first sentence? I can understand the concern about it feeling manipulative to give choices in order to kind of sugarcoat directions, but, OTOH, if he likes to pick, why not give him that control, especially since there's so many things in life that a kid doesn't have any control over? Maybe it's just because my ds is so definitely the kind of kid who, although he enjoys getting to choose things, also sees right through choices if he doesn't want to do that activity at all, so I already get plenty of opportunities to find other ways of coping with those situations. Actually, thinking about it, most of the time, when I offer ds a choice, I just want to offer him input. He doesn't have an issue with getting dressed, but we let him choose his shirt and pants because, well, I guess because there's no reason not to.









Quote:

Like with this example:

Quote:

Originally Posted by TortelliniMama
I think there are still valid choices that can be offered in that situation. How about "Do you want to peel your banana or do you want me to peel it for you?"
Is a choice about everything necessary for many kids?
Well, I was more focused on just providing a non-pseudo choice option for the pp's situation, so I don't want you to think that figuring out how ds is going to eat a banana goes on for 30 minutes in our house. ("Do you want to sit in the high chair or on the floor? What color plate? Room temperature or refrigerated banana? Slightly green or overripe? Lying on the plate north-to-south or east-to-west?" :LOL) But I do think that there are some kids who are just more sensitive to their relatively powerless state, and choices are very comforting for them.

Quote:

When I find myself framing everything as a choice (or some other 'strategy' for cooperation) it usually means that things are out of sync. It means that I have assumed or that I fear that she isn't going to cooperate. I find that this is not a good place to be.
I agree that it's better to keep in mind that our kids aren't always going to have the same responses that they did yesterday or the day before, and expectations can be self-fulfilling prophecies, but there are frequently situations in which I can predict that ds will have difficulty (beyond the whole choices issue). I'd rather do things that will help him be successful, rather than assume that he can get along with some modifications (for example, if we're going to a large gathering with people he hasn't met/seen in a while, I'll probably put him in the sling before we go in, because I know he'll feel more secure that way and have the opportunity to warm up without melting down). I'll keep my eyes open for hints that he doesn't need those modifications anymore (or needs smaller ones), but I wouldn't want to drop my strategies to help him be successful and assume he'll be able to cooperate with expectations without them.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TortelliniMama*
So, would you not be in favor of consistently saying something like, "You need to put a sweater on. Do you want the red one or the blue one?", and instead prefer to just stop after the first sentence? I can understand the concern about it feeling manipulative to give choices in order to kind of sugarcoat directions, but, OTOH, if he likes to pick, why not give him that control, especially since there's so many things in life that a kid doesn't have any control over?

I think it really depends on the motivation of the parent. If we're using choices to distract kids or avoid any kind of confrontation it can be a big problem. If we're giving them choices because we feel guilty for controlling them that is also a problem.

If we're giving them choices because they actually care about the choices we're offering or we just want to find the best "common preference" I think that's fine.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TortelliniMama*
("Do you want to sit in the high chair or on the floor? What color plate? Room temperature or refrigerated banana? Slightly green or overripe? Lying on the plate north-to-south or east-to-west?" :LOL)

:LOL

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TortelliniMama*
But I do think that there are some kids who are just more sensitive to their relatively powerless state, and choices are very comforting for them.

Yea, I agree. OTOH, I wonder about this. I worry that this way of dealing with sensitivity can backfire.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
I worry that this way of dealing with sensitivity can backfire.

My dd was always a very laid-back, agreeable little person. She was also highly verbal at a young age. We gave her choices about almost everything. She is now not nearly as laid-back, and she's argumentative and tries to negotiate on every point, oftentimes just to negotiate. I think part of it is because she's still adjusting to her toddler brother being plunked into her life, part of it is because of the age/stage of development she's at, and part of it is because we taught her that she had a say in virtually everything. Because she's developmentally egocentric, she thinks that means that her desires matter most and that she runs the decision show.

I have started recently giving her fewer choices, even when choices are available. I don't directly order her, but I don't lay out a platter of options for her to graze on. It has helped a lot with the arguments and general sour mood. I do think children should have a say in as much as they can and should have lots of reasonable options. But some children, at some ages, just want to be argumentative about choices just to be argumentative, and, although that may be developmentally appropriate at some times, I don't have to induldge it when it creates discord in our family.

Namaste!


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Talk about pseudo-choice!!!!!

It find it interesting to note that a thread about choices so quickly shifts to people defensively stating, "Well, they can't have a choice about everything" and talking like their entire lives are frought with danger every second- it's all parking lots, knives and toxic chemicals.

So quickly, we rush to state that directions should just be stated as such- then question why to give choices at all.

And when choices seem reasonable to use they are about cutting or not cutting a banana or choosing a banana vs an orange. Not exactly a serious "choice". This is not a choice that's going to prepare them to someday choose a college or a carreer. Heck, it may not even prepare them to choose between "caff" and "decaf." (Just kidding around- not meaning to single out anyone or hurt feelings.)

What about REAL choices? Choices that mean something? How about "would you like to try preschool this year or stay home with the baby while I work?" "What would you like to do today?" "What would you like to do for grandma on her birthday?" "How would you like to help that family in trouble?" "where would you like to go on vacation?"

Kids abviously can't decide all these things on their own- but I think they can start thinking about these things and contributing to family discussions.

I think choice is important to development. Learning to make choices is part of growing up and important for understanding and cognitive development.

Anyway- gotta jet.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

This is a very timely thread for me. Add me to the list of moms who feel it's manipulative, but do it anyway.

Our current biggest issue - DD was 2 in Feb and still wears diapers. With the weather and her holding pees longer the dipe needs to be changed as soon as she pees. Otherwise she's gets rashy. DD refuses the cloth dipes so we bought pull-ups.







:

Whenever I tell her it's time for a diaper change - she runs away and says no. I calmly repeat that we need to change the dipe, etc etc and still NO. I tell her to take the wet one off. She won't. I tell her to go get a new one and she can put it on or I will help her. No deal. Finally I tell her to pick out a dipe (pull-ups have 2 $*(#$*@ characters on them). She might or might not. Finally I tell her if she doesn't pick out a new dipe, then I will get one for her. This usually gets her attention, but it's lousy parenting and manipulative. It doesn't preserve her ego or sense of self. It says I have power over her. I can literally pick her up and force her into a new dipe by virtue of my greater size. It's really bad, but I'm afraid I lack another roll model for what to do. If you give me some ideas I can rehearse them in my mind and it usually works.

Background - Both parents work full-time outside the home and DD goes to day care. This is why we have both cloth and pull-ups. I let her be nekky as much as possible but there are times when she needs to go to day care or church in a diaper.

It's a real issue for us because it's really important to me that we change the pull-ups often because of the rash. Food, bedtime, clothing, clean-up etc I'm pretty laid back about. DD senses this and makes her stand on the pull-ups. I just can't let that go because the results are so apparent - itchy, red, bumpy butt!


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*
What about REAL choices?

This is part of the issue for me as well. I think some of the choices we've been discussing are really superficial. I think most kids can see through that&#8230;this is the point where I think things backfire.

I want my strong and sensitive kid have the maximum amount of control over significant things and a realistic perspective about the things she doesn't have control over.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ellien C*
It's really bad, but I'm afraid I lack another roll model for what to do. If you give me some ideas I can rehearse them in my mind and it usually works.

This is one of those times where I would "use" choices to get her to cooperate *if it works*.

My other thought is that the lengthy conversation you're having about the change is giving her a lot of time to build up resistance. If you have to resort to physically forcing her almost every time, I would just do that right away.

Maybe a post over in diapers would be helpful as well.


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## TortelliniMama (Mar 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*
And when choices seem reasonable to use they are about cutting or not cutting a banana or choosing a banana vs an orange. Not exactly a serious "choice". This is not a choice that's going to prepare them to someday choose a college or a carreer. Heck, it may not even prepare them to choose between "caff" and "decaf." (Just kidding around- not meaning to single out anyone or hurt feelings.)

I certainly wouldn't say that those are the only kind of choices that are reasonable to give a child, but I do actually think that they're a first step on the road to being able to make more important choices. My 20 month old just can't seem to make up his mind between brain surgeon and playdoh taste tester in terms of career at this point







, so we're working on other choices. How you eat a banana is certainly not life-changing, but it does provide the opportunity to hold two options in your mind at once, think about the pluses and minuses of each, choose, and then see the results of your choice. This is probably a stage of choice-making that won't continue for very long, but I think it's useful to him. And if he continues having a real interest in how his bananas are cut, I'm going to keep cutting them and then show him how to cut them himself. Personally, I think apples taste better spiral-cut.









Quote:

What about REAL choices? Choices that mean something? How about "would you like to try preschool this year or stay home with the baby while I work?" "What would you like to do today?" "What would you like to do for grandma on her birthday?" "How would you like to help that family in trouble?" "where would you like to go on vacation?"
Encouraging kids to have input on bigger decisions is definitely a great idea, too, although, for us right now, it's not the most intelligible input. On this same topic, though, I'm trying to give ds choices about things that I do care about, but that aren't really vital to have go my own way (so, in other words, I'm trying to go beyond "I let him choose when I don't care what he chooses," but he still doesn't get to decide if we walk on the sidewalk or in the street). For instance, we made vases for his 2 grandmas, step-grandma, 3 great-grandmas, and 1 of his great-aunts for Mother's Day. (There is *so* much colored sand on our front porch! :LOL ) They're all different, and I have opinions about which would best suit various recipients. However, this is a gift from him, and it's hardly a safety issue if Grandma Yvonne doesn't get the purple one, so I'm having him pick out which vase goes to which person. Of course, this isn't the magnitude of decision that you were suggesting, and a lot of people are probably going, "Uh, why *wouldn't* she have let him choose?"







, but I think it's a step forward in decision-making responsibility for him and a step forward in giving up power (and gift-giving perfectionism) for me. Developmentally, I think this is the appropriate level for us right now.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TortelliniMama*
How you eat a banana is certainly not life-changing, but it does provide the opportunity to hold two options in your mind at once, think about the pluses and minuses of each, choose, and then see the results of your choice.

This is a good point and a fine motivation for giving choices.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
This is part of the issue for me as well. I think some of the choices we've been discussing are really superficial. I think most kids can see through that&#8230;this is the point where I think things backfire.

I want my strong and sensitive kid have the maximum amount of control over significant things and a realistic perspective about the things she doesn't have control over.

I think it's really hard to think of areas where small children can have input/choice. We're often so busy trying to stop them from doing stuff we think is dangerous. I think our attention is naturally drawn to the areas of conflict and we don't notice or consider other areas where choice and cooperation flows more easily. Maybe it's those areas where real choices can happen?

I'm babbling.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
My dd was always a very laid-back, agreeable little person. She was also highly verbal at a young age. We gave her choices about almost everything. She is now not nearly as laid-back, and she's argumentative and tries to negotiate on every point, oftentimes just to negotiate. I think part of it is because she's still adjusting to her toddler brother being plunked into her life, part of it is because of the age/stage of development she's at, and part of it is because we taught her that she had a say in virtually everything. Because she's developmentally egocentric, she thinks that means that her desires matter most and that she runs the decision show.

I have started recently giving her fewer choices, even when choices are available. I don't directly order her, but I don't lay out a platter of options for her to graze on. It has helped a lot with the arguments and general sour mood. I do think children should have a say in as much as they can and should have lots of reasonable options. But some children, at some ages, just want to be argumentative about choices just to be argumentative, and, although that may be developmentally appropriate at some times, I don't have to induldge it when it creates discord in our family.

Namaste!

I definately agree about this.

I'm all for choice in as many areas as possible, but my dd sometimes goes through a stage where she's easily overwhelmed and doesn't know what she wants. At those times she only wants things she can't have, and providing choices or even thinking outside the box is useless.

We had a day like that today. It's weird because we had like 6 months of smooth sailing mood and cooperation-wise. I'd gotten so used to allowing her to make choices about most things that affect her that I actually had to really force myself to take the reigns for her.

I think it's partially a phase thing. Sometimes kids can handle a lot of choice and think things through- they can process the world outside relatively well. Sometimes they are in a "howling at the moon" kinda phase where they need to be babied more- fewer choices, more external scheduling, so that they can focus on processing what is happening for them internally.

(We went through almost the exact same thing last year, in the spring as well. Maybe it's spring fever?)

Interesting thought, glad you brought it up.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TortelliniMama*
How you eat a banana is certainly not life-changing, but it does provide the opportunity to hold two options in your mind at once, think about the pluses and minuses of each, choose, and then see the results of your choice. This is probably a stage of choice-making that won't continue for very long, but I think it's useful to him. And if he continues having a real interest in how his bananas are cut, I'm going to keep cutting them and then show him how to cut them himself. Personally, I think apples taste better spiral-cut.







.

I second that that's a very good point.

My dd is almost three and we're making a lot of choices about classes, scheduling, preschool vs. home for next year. Though she isn't old enough to decide her own schedule, it is really cool talking to her about what she likes and doesn't like about certain classes, teacher, and situations. I feel like that kind of discussion is really useful in terms of teaching rudimentary problem solving. Issues of "who am I, what do I like, how do I like to spend my time" are crucial in adulthood. Though my dd's personality will abviously change over time I think it's neat to help her starting reflecting on these things now. (Also super helpful for me, since I'm the one who has to make the actual choices.)


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

I think the superficial choices and the "deep' choices are separate issues for me. When I'm talking about that damn banana (yes, I brought it up, sorry) its about getting through a meal without a melt down, keeping the kiddo in a positive mood, getting them to eat healthy food, etc. Those bigger choices aren't really about behavior. Talking to them about preschool, that is interesting and empowering but probably won't affect dc's actions that day. Won't stop a tantrum, I mean. Am I making any sense here? Both are important, but it seems to me like they are two related but different topics. One is about avoiding meltdowns in the moment and one is about empowering kids for a lifetime, etc. Of course, I want to do both, but are we talking about both subjects here?


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## sagira (Mar 8, 2003)

I haven't read all the posts, but I have no problem giving my son choices, psuedo or not. He's learning to make decisions so he needs practice. And as a caveat, he gets the structure of limited choices. I take care, however, not to give him too many choices. Wouldn't want to overwhelm him. After all, he's only 20 months.

However, I think it's useful, gentle and not intrusive. I read someplace that it works great with three-year-olds since they love to choose.

Cheers,


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*

Though she isn't old enough to decide her own schedule, it is really cool talking to her about what she likes and doesn't like about certain classes, teacher, and situations. I feel like that kind of discussion is really useful in terms of teaching rudimentary problem solving. Issues of "who am I, what do I like, how do I like to spend my time" are crucial in adulthood. Though my dd's personality will abviously change over time I think it's neat to help her starting reflecting on these things now.


This isn't to pick on you MOS..but I often wonder if when we do this with
2 or 3 yo's if it is burdening them with things they don't need to think/worry about right now. Shouldn't they just be thinking about playing and exploring thier environment instread of contemplating life? KWIM? Is it just too much?

Again, really just thinking out loud, not attacking your interactions with your dd.


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

Should they be exploring and playing instead of contemplating life and getting all philosophical?

Depends .... I have had many a discussion of that nature with dd, from the age of three on. She asks why things have to die, what happens, what it feels like, why is the earth here etc. Children have very pure, curious minds.
She brings it up, usually.

But, I think parents do a disservice to their children by supplying too many answers about things like that. Let them choose what to believe, don't stuff it down their throats!


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Flor*
I think the superficial choices and the "deep' choices are separate issues for me. When I'm talking about that damn banana (yes, I brought it up, sorry) its about getting through a meal without a melt down, keeping the kiddo in a positive mood, getting them to eat healthy food, etc. Those bigger choices aren't really about behavior. Talking to them about preschool, that is interesting and empowering but probably won't affect dc's actions that day. Won't stop a tantrum, I mean. Am I making any sense here? Both are important, but it seems to me like they are two related but different topics. One is about avoiding meltdowns in the moment and one is about empowering kids for a lifetime, etc. Of course, I want to do both, but are we talking about both subjects here?

Sorry about the prolific posts!

I thought the banana issue is interesting because it's those areas where we have the least real control ultimately where we tend to offer the most pseudochoices and trivial choices. Eating, sleeping, crying are all things we can't really make a kid do or not do, so we come up with all sorts of tap dance routines to get through them. I totally do it too.

I've wondered, though, whether increasing "real" choices may overall help decrease a child's resistance. I don't know about this for sure, but I wonder if having more freedom in one area would help a child better cope with not having control in another area. If this is the case, it probably only applies to older children, not toddlers.

It's hard not to fall into the trap of "I let you decide X, so now you have to do Y for me", which can happen when using broader choices to offset certain issues.

Not sure if small and large choices are part of the same spectrum. Good question.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmb123*
This isn't to pick on you MOS..but I often wonder if when we do this with
2 or 3 yo's if it is burdening them with things they don't need to think/worry about right now. Shouldn't they just be thinking about playing and exploring thier environment instread of contemplating life? KWIM? Is it just too much?

Again, really just thinking out loud, not attacking your interactions with your dd.

I certainly don't think 2-3 year olds can contemplate life, or would want to. My dd doesn't really understand time yet- so it would be a pointless discussion.

However, going through the motions of why she doesn't like a class or a person or an experience is helpful for both of us, I think. It helps her refine her tastes and opinions, and state them more clearly, and helps me know who she is.

I have a few years experience making decisions for her at this point and it took a long time to realize she's not me and has different tastes. It's hard to judge when a little kid says "no" what they mean and if you should take it seriously or not. I definately feel like it's in dd's best interest for me to help her take an active role.


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## cmb123 (Dec 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Snowy Owl*
I have had many a discussion of that nature with dd, from the age of three on. She asks why things have to die, what happens, what it feels like, why is the earth here etc. Children have very pure, curious minds.
She brings it up, usually.

Oh, that kinda stuff definately...I was referring to when I hear parents initiate questions to thier children about things that really are not things a 2 or 3 year old needs to be thinking about. Things that I feel might burden them with adult worries that I don't think they should have to think about.
But..that is actually completely off topic anyway....


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## lizamann (Dec 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mommyofshmoo*
I've wondered, though, whether increasing "real" choices may overall help decrease a child's resistance. I don't know about this for sure, but I wonder if having more freedom in one area would help a child better cope with not having control in another area. If this is the case, it probably only applies to older children, not toddlers.

It's hard not to fall into the trap of "I let you decide X, so now you have to do Y for me", which can happen when using broader choices to offset certain issues.

In AK's "Unconditional Parenting,", he mentions studies that show that kids of less controlling parents are actually more compliant in many situations than the kids of parents who allow their kids less freedom. Very interesting! I think he reviewed a couple of different studies with this same conclusion, and I'm sure at least one of them was with 2 - 3 yr olds.


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## FireWithin (Apr 29, 2004)

One way that we allow DS to make real choices during the day occurs as a ritual after his nap. Either he or I ask "so what do you want to do this afternoon?" We discuss the options and he often makes the choices.

I also agree that these "real" choices and pseudo choices are playing different roles in our interactions.


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