# unconventional bedtimes



## Squrrl (Mar 2, 2006)

I'd like to hear from those of you out there (I can't be alone) who don't really do the "7 o' clock, let's go to bed!" bit (or 8, or whatever, but early for an adult and at a fairly set time). My daughter's 10 months old, and she's always just gone to bed when we did. We moved our bedtime up to 10 to accommodate this, but since she would only sleep while nursing until quite recently, it's not as if I had much choice. Also, if she'd gone to bed at 7 or 8, most days she wouldn't have seen her father at all.

I still wonder, though...no one else ever talks about this. Of all the things that we question on MDC, bedtime never comes up. Is there some actual _reason_ that people put kids to bed so early? Is my child missing out on something? And now I'm more curious than before, because now she's starting to actually sleep on her own (once I nurse her to sleep, always. But that's another story).

So ladies, what do you do, and what's your rationale?

Oh, and I should add that if she's not sleepy when I first try to put her to sleep, I don't force the issue. Last night I twice tried to nurse her to sleep. The first time it failed, we went back downstairs and I didn't mind at all. The second time, we stayed in the dark in our room, but I let her play until she started rubbing her eyes and looking sleepy again. A little trying for me that time, since *I* was all geared up to sleep, but survivable.


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## mama2elisabeth (Mar 15, 2008)

Good topic! My DH works 2nd shift and doesn't get home until 2am. Before DD was born in November, I often stayed up until then, and we'd both sleep in until 10am







. Until recently she has fit into our mold really well, oftentimes staying up until 11 or 12 and sleeping until 9-10am. However she's now tiring out at 8-9 and waking at 6, so I'm just going to bed earlier myself (since I'm the one who has to get up and play with her at the crack of dawn







). IMO, as long as our LOs are getting enough sleep, that's all that matters.


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## zoe196 (Mar 20, 2007)

my ds is 2.5 and we generally go to bed at the same time-- about 10:00pm.
The few times he has gone to bed earlier have been bliss as I crave some "me time" in the evenings but seems like a very difficult change to make. Sometimes I stay up after he goes to sleep ( it usually takes nursing and singing for 20-30 minutes before he settles down) but then end up staying up til 1am which backfires in the morning.

I look forward to reading other replies...







:

Zoe, mama to Thomas 1-06


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## thixle (Sep 26, 2007)

No one does talk about it! It seems to be a dirty little secret with most families...
DH gets home around 7pm, so if DD went to sleep







: she'd never see daddy. But truthfully, how do you MAKE a kid sleep? Without CIO, I mean. DD seems to thrive on very little sleep compared to others her age. And that is fine with her. I, on the other hand, could sleep 12 hours straight and feel so much better








I would like her to be asleep before midnight, because we all have to get up at 7:30, but that is just for me. I *could* go back to sleep after they leave (preschool and work) but I feel too guilty.


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## xtara2003x (Sep 25, 2006)

My DD is 14 almost 15 months old...and only now have we begun a bedtime..which we do around 9-1030 depending on our day and her tiredness level.

Before this...she has always just gone to bed with us.....either 9pm...or 12pm.

We sleep in late too. It's 930am-ish and we both just woke up!


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## jemama (Apr 16, 2007)

When our oldest was a baby, bedtime was whenever I went to bed. Now that there's two of them and I work full time bedtime is 8:30pm for them. We all wake up around 5:30ish every morning so they need an earlier bedtime. They usually burn out around Thursday of every week if I don't force the early to bed rule. My oldest I can just say "Lay down, go to sleep" but the baby takes some cajoling.


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## bczmama (Jan 30, 2006)

"Is there some actual _reason_ that people put kids to bed so early?"

Yup. I think sleep is as important as good nutrition for current and future health (both mental and physical). Since I'm not willing to let the kids sleep until noon (they're up at 6:30 M-F to have breakfast and time with Dad), they go to bed earlier. I've been using guidelines that recommend (including naptimes) 13.75 hours for 1 year, 13.5 for 18 months, 13 for two years, and 12 for 3 years.

I have noticed an improved difference in temperment when I moved towards earlier bedtimes and more sleep. I really prefer having the mornings be kid and dad time, while having them to bed earlier at night leaves time for adults.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Mine go to bed when tired. Whenever. Sometimes after me. I believe people should sleep when tired. We don't do bedtime.


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## FREEmom1120 (Feb 23, 2008)

My dd usually goes to bed around 9, that's when she is tired and ready. Last night, however, it was midnight.









I don't make her go to bed at any certain time. For the most part she is pretty regular though. I'd just prefer her to go to bed earlier because dh and I are both home and it's nice to have time together after she is asleep for the night.


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## bellabear (Oct 16, 2007)

I'm right there with ya. My dd goes to bed around 9:30ish. She has always...or rather we have always gone to sleep when she does. She's 3 now and we do have a routine to ease he to sleep. We usually take a bath around 8:30, get dressed and hop into bed and read some books for a while,then she's ready to nurse to sleep. It works well for us. She has never gone to bed at 6 or7 (except when she was a newborn)! She's gone thru phases of going to bed at almost 11pm...not much fun, I like to go to bed early!


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

My son goes to bed when he is tired. I have always done it this way. But it just happens to be rather consistant and around 7:30ish. If he doesnt want to go to bed, he doesnt. This usually only happens when hes had a nap during the day though - which is rare as he stopped having a nap two weeks before he was two so only tends to have a nap if he has been in the car and out all day long...which does then mean he doesnt tend to want to go to bed until 10-11pm.
No matter what time he goes though - hes always awake around 8ish in the morning. Its an early 'bedtime' to me, because I am not tired until 10-11...sometimes on here until 2 in the morning







lol... But he is clearly tired and sleeps until about 8 that its not 'early' for him.

I am very glad he goes to bed earlier than we do though. DH and I get to have some time together, get to have some sex every now and then (crucial for future babymaking lol - way too tired to attempt sex at like 2 in the morning trust me lol), or do whatever it is we would like to do that we cant with DS around like watch some tele not appropriate for his viewing or just sit there and do...nothing (its a wonderful doing nothing lol).

I dont really consider what we do 'unconventional' though - mostly because I enjoy the fact he goes to bed hours before us far too much (I love my son to bits, but I am also one of those people that just really likes to be alone) and we did encourage it a bit - we had a 'routine' (not a schedule though) since the day he was born but I always went with his biological clock - never forced, we live consensually...so I guess we are sort of inbetween?...We dont do 'bedtime' but if I notice my son is getting tired I will then ask him if he wants to go to bed and if he says yes - he goes! lol

I suppose all of this becomes a 'problem' when people are stuck to a set time and regime and get hung up on that (I have lots of 'mainstream' friends that do) - especially when the baby becomes a toddler. - This has never been an issue for us though because we are pretty lax about it. But the way it works out - works out great for our family. I plan to do the same with the next child.

However - I am glad we dont do school lol... Then I think you would have to get pretty strict about 'bedtime' having to be up at a certain time and all. So from that point of view, I can see why people do it...the sooner you start the better - no point in trying to insist on a schedule with a 5 year old when for the whole 5 years before that things ran differently in your house...wouldnt make much sense and seem like an awful lot of work lol


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## Ellen Griswold (Feb 27, 2008)

When my oldest was about 18 months to about 3yo, he and I worked at a day care 2 days a week. He would NEVER nap there. So, he took about a 2 hour nap when we came home from about 5 to 7. Not great for bedtimes, so frequently he and I would stay up until 11 or 12, or even later. Since I sah, I have the kind of flexibility that I could sleep in if I wanted to. Then, we stopped working, and his bedtime evolved to about 8 and he sleeps until about 7. As long as your child gets enough sleep, and the schedule doesn't bug you, I can't figure out why there would be any need to change it.


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## snuffles (Apr 11, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bczmama* 
"Is there some actual _reason_ that people put kids to bed so early?"

Yup. I think sleep is as important as good nutrition for current and future health (both mental and physical). Since I'm not willing to let the kids sleep until noon (they're up at 6:30 M-F to have breakfast and time with Dad), they go to bed earlier. I've been using guidelines that recommend (including naptimes) 13.75 hours for 1 year, 13.5 for 18 months, 13 for two years, and 12 for 3 years.

I have noticed an improved difference in temperment when I moved towards earlier bedtimes and more sleep. I really prefer having the mornings be kid and dad time, while having them to bed earlier at night leaves time for adults.

I agree.

Some of my kids are just early risers, no matter what time they go to bed. So, it's 8pm for kids under 10. This gives me and my husband time together before I go to bed at 10.


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## bottomsup (Jul 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bczmama* 
"Is there some actual _reason_ that people put kids to bed so early?"

Yup. I think sleep is as important as good nutrition for current and future health (both mental and physical). Since I'm not willing to let the kids sleep until noon (they're up at 6:30 M-F to have breakfast and time with Dad), they go to bed earlier. I've been using guidelines that recommend (including naptimes) 13.75 hours for 1 year, 13.5 for 18 months, 13 for two years, and 12 for 3 years.

I have noticed an improved difference in temperment when I moved towards earlier bedtimes and more sleep. I really prefer having the mornings be kid and dad time, while having them to bed earlier at night leaves time for adults.

I completely agree with this. I never "force" my son to sleep, but I do encourage him and set up the evening and the day as much as possible,s o that he is generally sleepy around the same time each day. For him, that falls around 8:00 or so.

I also think it is healthy to respect a young child's sleep needs and cycle. They may be able to power through and stay up until all hours out of sheer will and exuberance for life, but it is not always good for them. They are not little adults, and can't function like we do. Heck, I cannot function well on an erratic sleep schedule.

I think the fallout for erratic sleep shows up later, much like the fallout for starting solids too early, etc.

That said, my 14 month old was up until 11:30 last night! Whoa. So I am not so rigid it is bedtime no.matter. what. But I do set up a routine and a day to encourage it on more nights than not.


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## jennchsm (Jun 24, 2008)

I'm really glad to see this thread, as it's an issue I've just recently been struggling with. We have a 5-month-old and we co-sleep. Until recently, it's been a non-issue for him to go to bed when we do, somewhere between 9 and 10 pm. He will generally fall asleep in my arms around 7:00 and then wake up when we go upstairs around 9:00. (In fact, we often time our own "going to bed" time by his waking up around them.) That's when we do our baths on bath days, change into PJs, and settle into bed for more nursing. I was starting to get concerned that he should be going to bed earlier based on things I've read and seen on TV, so we started heading up around 8:00, but that seemed to disrupt my son's sleep routine!

So now I'm thinking that the way we were doing it was fine all along. He gets plenty of naps during the day, so I know he's getting enough sleep. He is ready to get up and play around 7:00 these days (affecting *my* sleeping in, LOL), but will nurse himself to sleep in my arms again around 9:00 am.

I'm not sure how things will change as he gets older, so I'm looking forward to reading the other comments here.


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## Ks Mama (Aug 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Squrrl* 
I still wonder, though...no one else ever talks about this. Of all the things that we question on MDC, bedtime never comes up. Is there some actual _reason_ that people put kids to bed so early? Is my child missing out on something? And now I'm more curious than before, because now she's starting to actually sleep on her own (once I nurse her to sleep, always. But that's another story).

So ladies, what do you do, and what's your rationale?

I've always put my children to sleep when they were sleepy; which typically, is around 9pm, but really depends more on their level of sleepiness - sometimes is closer to 8, sometimes closer to 10. DH gets in from work around 7, so a later bedtime is necessitated.

I've never put them to sleep at the same time as we go to bed - but that's because we usually go to sleep around 1 or 2am. We own our own business, and often work late into the evening; pretty much around the clock, haha, so the very late evening is when we get couple time.

Now that DD has started school, which is on a regular morning schedule, obviously, we're trying to move bedtime back just a bit - closer to the 8pm side of 9pm. But I have never seen the point in putting an untired kid in bed just because the clock says its a certain time.

I don't do it myself, no reason to enforce it on a child. I am sure once we settle into the earlier morning routine, the earlier night routine will naturally follow.


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## Septagram (Feb 8, 2008)

We have experienced a roller coaster in bedtime variations. DS1 started out sleeping his life away as most newborns do.. Then started staying up until 10pm or later most nights.. Then when he was 18 months or so he would stay up as late as 1am some nights. Now he's tired around 7:30 or 8 most nights, but again, some nights stays up until the wee hours. DS2 is only a few months old.. How things will go with him is yet to be seen.

I'm a big fan of letting kids sleep when they're tired. Bedtime schmedtime.


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## AnnaLaughs (Jul 10, 2003)

I'm glad to see this thread. I've been contemplating starting a thread but couldn't bring myself to do it. That should show you the stigma attached to a "non conventional" bedtime. I just get tired of people acting like I'm doing something wrong. DD has always been a night owl. Always! I have no idea how to change this or if I even should. We homeschool (unschool) so it's not like she has to be anywhere. Since day one I have heard "you need to fix this".....I don't consider her broken...lol! On the other hand, DS has a more conventional schedule. I have to be up with him in the morning so DD's schedule is a bit of an issue now. I am torn between letting this go and trying to swing her around to our schedule.


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## KimPM (Nov 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bczmama* 
Yup. I think sleep is as important as good nutrition for current and future health (both mental and physical). Since I'm not willing to let the kids sleep until noon (they're up at 6:30 M-F to have breakfast and time with Dad), they go to bed earlier. I've been using guidelines that recommend (including naptimes) 13.75 hours for 1 year, 13.5 for 18 months, 13 for two years, and 12 for 3 years.

I have noticed an improved difference in temperment when I moved towards earlier bedtimes and more sleep. I really prefer having the mornings be kid and dad time, while having them to bed earlier at night leaves time for adults.

Yeah, that'd be great...if it actually worked for us.

I cosleep with DS. I usually go down to sleep (and nap) when he does. Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to need as much sleep as I do. And for the first 2 years or so he was such an atrocious sleeper. He's one of those kids who was just "on the go" until he literally crashed to sleep.

For the first 2 years, DS's bedtime was anywhere between 10 PM and 1 AM. He simply would not go down to sleep anytime sooner. Then he would wake up early, between 6 and 9 AM. He would also have multiple nursing sessions at night. Often he would have night terrors. When I tried to put DS to bed earlier (if he's tired enough that I can get him down), he simply woke up earlier in the morning. There's no way I'm putting him down at 8PM (if I could even get him to sleep!) just so he can get up between 4 and 5 AM. It's just not happening. We have nowhere to be that early in the morning.

We do take a 2-3 hour nap during the day. Occasionally he misses his nap and he's cranky, so when I put him down earlier at night, he is in the bed for the extra 2 hours...BUT...he wakes up screaming multiple times during the night. His sleep cycle is disturbed.

Lately we have been having luck getting him down around the 10PM timeframe. He gets up between 6:30 and 7 PM. We take a 2-3 hour nap in the middle of the day. This has been the best, most consistent sleep pattern he has ever had in his short 2.5 year life.


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## Tangled Hill (Jun 6, 2008)

We're co-sleepers. When ds was small, he had his days and nights mixed up. Since I was staying home with him, I just switched mine, as well. No biggie. I figured that was much easier than trying to get him to sleep at a prescribed time, earlier and earlier (or later and later) each day until his sleeping schedule matched what I wanted it to be. He eventually got turned around.

Now, he's ten, and his "bedtime" is 11:00. He can stay up and play, read, draw, spend time with the dogs and cats, or listen to music or audio books. He usually falls asleep around 1:00 or so, and I come to bed sometime later. Since we homeschool, there's no real reason to get up early, except on days where we have something scheduled, and then, I remind him of it the night before. Of course, if he's having to get up early, I am too, so we generally just go to bed together, and he falls right asleep.

If we had to get up every day for school or work or whatnot, it would probably be much different, but as it is, I don't see any reason for him to have an early bedtime. As long as he gets enough sleep, I'm happy.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Well, my daughter has always had an unconventional bedtime, but on the other end of the spectrum. She goes to bed _really_ early and always has.

Why? Because it is her nature and because she has always, like since birth, not slept much during the day, so she is really tired very early in the evening. I took me awhile to realize this was her nature. By the time she was a few months old things were not going so well sleep-wise and I finally decided to drop my expectations and really start listening to her, and I stopped worry about what other people were doing.

By the time she was probably 5 months old or so, she was going to bed at 5:30pm and sleeping until 7am, only waking a few times to nurse. Mind you she only took 2 30 minutes naps during the day. She was much happier this way and slept so much more peacefully. This continued till she was well over a year.

Things have been a little less predictable since then. Her sleep need has decreased a bit and her napping habits have gotten very erratic. However, she still goes to bed really early most days. She doesn't nap most days and is asleep by 6pm. On the days she naps, she is asleep by 7 or 8pm depending on the time and length of the nap. No matter what time she goes to bed, even if it was unusually late, she is up between 5:30am and about 6:45am.

I have tried to gently shift her schedule before to no avail. I just end up with a grumpy tired baby. My husband and I would love her to stay up a bit later and sleep later, but that just isn't her. My husband almost never gets to see her after work, but he gets a lot of good morning playtime in with her. He has shifted his work day a bit to accommodate this.

Her early bedtime has gotten me some funny looks and some gasps of astonishment and a few chuckles. It has meant passing on a few social engagements that I am sure she would have had a blast at. I am sure our friends probably secretly think we are nuts. But we've grown to accept and even enjoy our little early bird's schedule. Now I just hope our next one has the same idea. I don't think I can handle and early bird and a night owl.


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## Squrrl (Mar 2, 2006)

Wow, guess I hit a nerve! A lot of people were glad to talk about this, and raised some good points. Guess I take staying at home for granted...the only "schedule" I even thought of was my husband's, cuz it's the only one we deal with! I can definitely see wanting to prepare a kid for getting up for school, too. (Though, man, there's only so much you can do. Every morning for four years I got up at 6:45 to go to high school, and every morning for four years I HATED IT!








). I also 100% agree that enough sleep is even more important for a child than for an adult (and that's saying a lot, and I LOVE my sleep), and that, sometimes, the child doesn't know that they need to go to sleep. Happily, mine right now will sleep plenty if I'm just alert to her cues for naptimes, but when she was younger, it was a battle, and I'm sure we'll be there again.

I guess I feel pretty comfortable with how we're doing now, though I might try to ease her bedtime a shade earlier to give us some couple time (more likely some "quick, let's do the dishes!" time







). I guess what we can all guess now is that we're not such big freaks as we thought we were! Thank god for MDC, eh?


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## Trillian (Nov 21, 2006)

My DS has always been a night owl. As a newborn, I could not get him to sleep before midnight. These days (now 2yo) I aim for 10pm, but it is often later. Fortunately we have a flexible schedule and he can always sleep as late as he needs to.

He never seemed to want or need as much sleep as the "typical baby" despite my best efforts. He sleeps about 9-10 hrs at night and 1-2 during the day. A friend's child the same age sleeps 15 hrs a day! I think there is a wide range of normal.


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## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

My kids both start getting ready for bed around 10:30. By the time we're done with teeth, pajamas, story & snuggles & they actually *go* to sleep, it's anywhere from 12-2, for the oldest anyway, the younger one is almost always asleep by 1. They sleep until they wake up, though, usually around noon, so getting enough sleep isn't an issue. When we visit my mom, we usually go to bed a bit earlier & get up a lot earlier (she's definitely a morning person & gets mad if we sleep much past 9).

I used to go to bed with them & just stay there. Being a major night owl myself, there was no way I was going to bed at 8 or 9. Now that ds2 doesn't nurse at night anymore, I often get up after he's asleep (ds1 is sometimes still awake) and stay up until between 2:30-4.

My dh worries about what people will think that our kids are up so late, so he refuses to let them play outside after about 8pm, which I think is awfully unfair & silly. I think it's partly because he still remembers some woman saying that "letting" little ones stay up past 8 is child abuse and he's worried if the kids are out playing that someone will report us.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Why do you feel that 7 or 8 is an early bedtime? I think that whatever bedtime gets you enough sleep to wake up naturally without an alarm clock is the right bedtime







My kids get up at 630am so that they can have a good breakfast and some time with mommy before all of the daycare kids show up. To do this my 8yo son needs to be in bed by 830, my 11yo dd by 9pm. I, myself, prefer to be in bed by 830pm because I get up at 5am.


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## Collinsky (Jul 7, 2004)

When we had a normal schedule, it was like the unconventional ones described. Dh works nights, and leaves at 10:30 PM for work. Bedtime never began before he left... our bedtime range was anywhere from 11PM to 1AM, asleep by 2. Kids would sleep until at least 10 (although they could get up earlier if there was an activity that day) and I would get up at 8, when Dh comes home, and be guaranteed a couple hours of adult time with him (or alone).









And that was our idea of a conventional schedule. I'd hate to see what you all thought of our "bedtime" now.....


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## earthgirl74 (Sep 11, 2007)

My husband and I both work, and have to be up at 5:30 (opposite days, one of us is always home) so we try to stick to a regular bedtime for everyone. It's no problem getting the 10 y/o to go to bed, but the 13 y/o wants to stay up til 3 or 4, then sleep til 1 or 2. Not gonna happen in this house! They go to school, so we try to keep the bedtime consistent on weekends and during the summer, but it's hard. If the older one stays up late (or gets up after we go to bed) we usually get a call from the school the next day saying he's "sick" and needs to come home.

DH and I like to spend some time alone together before bed, which we would like to be around 11, but with all the bedtime drama usually winds up being 1 or later. Any suggestions?


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## ellemnop (May 10, 2008)

Lemmie does not have a conventional bedtime either. Perhaps she would if DH did not work in the evenings until 10 p.m. I do start a bedtime/calmdown "routine" around 9 p.m. where we start reading a story and have a larger bottle of milk, etc., but if she's not tired, she just goes on her mats and plays. We do usually try to put her to bed when we go to bed though.

I don't exactly know why people put their children to bed so early. Most of the time we are lucky enough to have her sleep in until 8 a.m., and she has two really decent naps during the day. This "schedule" works for us.

Take care,
El


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## littlemizflava (Oct 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Squrrl* 
I still wonder, though...no one else ever talks about this. Of all the things that we question on MDC, bedtime never comes up. Is there some actual _reason_ that people put kids to bed so early? Is my child missing out on something? And now I'm more curious than before, because now she's starting to actually sleep on her own (once I nurse her to sleep, always. But that's another story).

because we need to train them to sleep or else they will not know how to get up in the day time. they will never be able to be on a set bed time and a set wake up time. you have to train them for when they go to school and have to go to work









Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
Mine go to bed when tired. Whenever. Sometimes after me. I believe people should sleep when tired. We don't do bedtime.

yes agree 200% i look at a child as my equal and they know when they are tierd and will sleep then. bed times are much beter when a child is tired not because it is 7pm. i can try to get my dd to go to bed early can take 6 hours she will not sleep till she is tired and if she knows we have to get up and still wants to stay up late that is her choice. she is 6


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## Elijahs Momma (Dec 12, 2007)

Well, around here we just sorta go to sleep whenever. dh works and I'm the one who stays home with ds so whenever he goes to sleep is when I do. usually is before between 10-12 but there for a while he was going to bed at 2 (which I didn't have a problem with - I seem to function better when I get up later)


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## Squrrl (Mar 2, 2006)

Yeah, I guess when they wake up is another part of the picture. Mine goes to sleep 10:30-1ish, same as us (I never was good at schedules, and, thank god, even DH has a moderately flexible work schedule) and wakes up 8:30-9:30 and always seems sufficiently refreshed, which works well for us. About half the time she's up to snuggle her papa goodbye, but when she sleeps a little longer I get to put myself together in peace and quiet--which is awfully nice. I agree with those who wonder, though, if this will be such an easy, organic process if they end up with two kids with different needs...hmmmm.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

While I was still a SAHM - my DD went to bed with us at 11pm. She would sleep until 10am and get up. DH got home from work at 5pm - so that gave them 6 hours together.

At about 14 months I started babysitting some other kids who were dropped off at my house at 8:30am. That woke her up - so we had to change something. I was also taking her to the in-laws for 9am another day.

So we switched her bedtime to 8pm. We tried making small changes - but it took a big one to do it.

Our goal is not to wake her up. We feel that she should wake up on her own - and that means she's getting enough sleep. So we pushed her bedtime back to where she was waking at ~8am on her own and seeming well rested.

Personally I feel that getting enough sleep is important - but I don't think that the particulars of 'when' are.


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## Squrrl (Mar 2, 2006)

Oh, and all apologies to those who don't consider 7-8 to be late. I'm well aware that some people are morning people and others are...not. I have a good friend who actually requests a 5am-2pm work schedule. Me, I wilt anytime before 8:30 am, and don't really start thinking until dinnertime. When the two of us dated, that was actually one of our biggest problems. I'm sure that a similar mismatch with a child could be equally unpleasant.


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## verde (Feb 11, 2007)

We have a bit of a later schedule. DD has bath at 9:30ish and goes to sleep between 10 and 10:30. We wake up at around 8:20 am. That's worked well for all of us. However, DD will start pre-school this fall and she'll be there from 8:45 to 11:45 every morning so we anticipate a schedule change for that. Stay tuned!


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## meganbarr (Jun 20, 2008)

My dd goes to bed sometime between 11 and 12, there is really no point trying to get her to go to sleep before then because she just isn't tired. If it gets to be too late and I am ready for bed dh puts her in the sling and carries her around for about 15 minutes and then puts her in bed with me to go to sleep. DD and I both sleep until about 10 am. To some this sounds lazy, but I actually get most things done in the later evening. I am lucky to be a SAHM so DD and I can make the schedule that works for us, regardless of what is "normal". I say if it works for you and everyone is healthy-go for it!


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## VeganMamaRed (Jun 7, 2007)

My 5 1/2 year old is in bed pretty routinely by 8:30 at night. My 3 next month year old usually stays up until 10 or so. I nurse him to sleep in the living room on the couch while watching tv, reading, or talking to dh. He usually nurses for 30-45 minutes straight before conking out, and then I slip out form under him. Whenever I go to bed, which is often around 2, I move ds into the bed with me. Until then he just sleeps on the couch. Neither kid gets up before 8, it's usally around 8:30. My little one still naps for 2-3 hours every day. I suspect that if he napped earlier he would go to bed earlier, but we are usually out doing stuff in the morning and nap gets pushed back....

I actually like it like this because I spend my 1 on 1 time with my 5 year old while my little guy naps and then I spend my 1 0n 1 time with him at night after his sister is in bed. Everybody wins! And I am an incurable night owl so I get to spend time alone after everyone else is asleep.

If my kids were the in-bed-at-7-up-by-6 kinds of kids I'd freak. This is exactly the way I like it.


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## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

ds goes to bed anywhere between midnight at 4am. hes always been a night owl, he had a short stint where he wanted to be in bed by 10, so we did, tgghen he went back to his normal self.


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## MayBaby2007 (Feb 22, 2007)

No routine here. I work 3 pm-11pm 3 days/week and 11pm-7am 2 days/week. Sometimes I feel guilty having a baby centered w/in this schedule but currently, there's nothing I can do about it.

3-11 shift: Sometimes dd is tuckered out from playing hard and she stays asleep from car to house. In that case, she'll get up about 8am (and may wake through the night for something). Other times, she's wide awake by the time I get off work and has missed me all night and stays up until 4 am playing. 4 am was her record. It's usually 1am or 2am. Begging a toddler to go to sleep doesn't work, although I still try







If we stay up late, we sleep in until 10 or 11 am. Luckily she's not picky and "goes with the flow" of my schedule.

11-7 shift: She goes to bed fairly early and wakes a couple times through the night. She just gets too excited to see mama at 11pm and she perks up I guess. It's all good though...any time spent is a blessing









My neighbors must hate me. Windows are open with a toddler happily screaming, babbling, and running around at 2am







:


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## Collinsky (Jul 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MayBaby2007* 
My neighbors must hate me. Windows are open with a toddler happily screaming, babbling, and running around at 2am







:

I think about this a lot... I've talked to my kids (several times a month







) about our sleeping neighbors and how if we're noisy it wakes them up and then they may be very tired and feel bad all day. We're in townhouse style apartments, so thank goodness, no one below us - just on either side. I try to keep nighttime shenanigans downstairs. They try to remember. But... yeah,







: sums it up.


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## Momma2SoSweet (Feb 25, 2007)

My dd sleeps when she's tired, as well. Really, can anyone force an almost 2 y/o to sleep? She sets her own routine and we follow it. She naps 2-4 hours after she wakes because that's when she is tired. She goes to bed for the night 7ish hours after she wakes from her nap because that is when she is tired. Some days bedtime is 10pm and other days it's 8pm. She sleeps 12-13 hours a night and naps for 90 minutes a day, so I'm not worried about her sleep.

When she was an infant she would go to sleep late- between 10pm-12am. She went through a phase around ten months old where she wanted to go to bed way earlier, like 7pm. (That was also around the time when she began transitioning herself to one nap a day- that took a good six months.) Now she has an 'average' bedtime of 9pm, though it varies depending on different factors: if she woke up a little earlier than usual/napped a little longer or a little later than usual/played hard all day and was super tired earlier than normal/etc.

Oh, and my dd never wakes earlier than 8am- and that's really pushing it. She's usually up between 9-10am, though closer to 10am. I'm glad. Although I'm more of a morning person, I couldn't do 5:30/6:30am (though I would if I absolutely had to).


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## mamahart (Sep 25, 2007)

We have crazy bedtime routines that often end up with late nights for the kiddos...we also cosleep and I wonder about the effect of that on rigorous bedtimes? We are generally solar, so wind down with the sun and get up with it, which makes for short nights in the summer! So I am sure my kids do not get the recommended allowance for sleep in the summer. But we sleep a lot in the winter!


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

We started out being "unconventional" and as babies both my girls went to bed whenever they fell asleep. Now that they are 7 and 3.5 getting them to go to bed before 2 am is a hassle and its not safe for them to be up til that hour of the day unsupervised (I don't want to stay up that late because they want to). Besides that tho, the 7 year old has school that she needs to wake up for and if she doesn't get enough sleep she will not have a good day.

At this point I kick myself on a daily basis for not trying to set some sort of schedule when they were younger.


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Squrrl* 
Is there some actual _reason_ that people put kids to bed so early?

From what I have read, when they are babies, it doesn't matter so much but most toddlers and preschoolers' clocks are wired for bed at around 8PM, 7PM or earlier. There are certainly exceptions. I can think of at least a couple of toddlers whom I have encountered who were wired to go to bed late and rise late but even there, eventually, they had to get up for preschool and then kindergarten, so they had to start going to bed early or they would just be way to tired and unable to cope the next day.

In fall and winter, when school is on, my daughter (almost 4) will have a breakdown the next day if she is not sleeping by 730 PM. She always gets up early, no matter what time she goes to bed, so it is important that she be in bed by then so that she gets enough sleep. In the summer, she goes to bed at 830 (but in summer there is daylight savings time - so really it is still the same time).


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## jul511riv (Mar 16, 2006)

homeschooling would solve this!


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## MayBaby2007 (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Collinsky* 
I think about this a lot... I've talked to my kids (several times a month







) about our sleeping neighbors and how if we're noisy it wakes them up and then they may be very tired and feel bad all day. We're in townhouse style apartments, so thank goodness, no one below us - just on either side. I try to keep nighttime shenanigans downstairs. They try to remember. *But... yeah,







: sums it up.*


Bolding mine. And







: I got a good LOL from that last sentance, thanks. Gotta love it though


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## olliepop (Jun 26, 2007)

Quote:

That should show you the stigma attached to a "non conventional" bedtime. I just get tired of people acting like I'm doing something wrong.
That's funny b/c I get made fun of or people act like my children are missing out b/c of their early bedtime, 7:30. My dd (almost 5) has always woken up at 6am *no matter what time she goes to sleep*. Her internal clock is set for 6 and unfortunately, there is no snooze button.

As her parents, we know how much sleep she needs (based on behavior crankiness, etc.) and when people give us a hard time about how early she goes to bed, I don't understand what gives them the right when they have no idea what our family is like and why they even care.

I don't care if people put their children to bed at 10pm or midnight. Personally, *I* can't stay up that late, but what do I care if another family is up at that hour?


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *olliepop* 
That's funny b/c I get made fun of or people act like my children are missing out b/c of their early bedtime

I can totally relate. We've had to miss a couple of social events due to my daughter's early bedtime, but nothing really important. However, some people have acted like we are depriving her and ourselves of a rich and full life or something...like we could really keep her out late if we really wanted to...like the sleep she gets from 6 to 10pm is kinda optional.


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## heatherweh (Nov 29, 2007)

WE don't do a set bedtime either (within reason). We always put DS (2yo) to bed when he gets sleepy, trying to get him to sleep when he isn't is a huge stress to both of us. If he isn't ready he will; nurse FOREVER and try to climb out of bed and get very irritable (as you would if someone tried to imprison you in a bed). So if he gets tired and falls asleep at 7pm then that's fine and if he needs to stay up later he does- I pretty much draw the line at midnight and at that time will indeed force the issue, but until then I try to be flexible. He varies in naps too, taking one for 3 hours one day and then no nap the next. It probably isn't ideal honestly, I envy my friends who "put theirs down" at the same time every day and get tons of free time to themselves, but they all did it by CIO and out their children in the crib and let them cry and are inflexible in their schedule- I know DH and I couldn't do that and I know DS wouldn't be able to cope with that as well as some kids could either. Some toddlers will play quietly in their rooms or cribs at naptime and bedtime if they aren't tired, DS would not be satisfied with this and would probably tar the house down, so we adapt.


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## heatherweh (Nov 29, 2007)

Oh and as some pps expressed we get a lot of flack and snippy comments for it too. EVERY time I talk to MIL she pointedly asks what time DS takes a nap and what time he goes to bed and EVERY time I tell her when he wants too. I guess its tantamount to neglect, but from people who think we should be spanking I shouldn't expect better really. Friends remark "Oh I think its important for DH and I to have that time together as a couple" as they put their child to bed at 7pm daily and take weekend vacations without their LO. DH works on the overnight schedule and DS and I co-sleep, so its a different situation, but its hard for people to accept that everyone isn't the same I guess.


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## jillmamma (Apr 11, 2005)

I think it depends also on when you have to get up in the morning. If there is no stay at home parent, or the child has school, earlier bedtimes that are enforced are probably more necessary. If a parent can be home with them and no school to go to (or are homeschooled), you can afford to be more relaxed about it. That is how we are anyway. This summer they have been going to bed closer to 10ish and getting up around 7:30 to 8:30. Once school starts (DS starts all day K this fall), we will have to enforce an earlier bedtime so that he can be well rested and ready for school to start at 8. That is my take on it.


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## Mommy2Haley (Oct 25, 2007)

We tried following the "expert" advice and all it did was make for a really stressful time for all of us. After I had a mental breakdown and we resorted to CIO for one night (no flames - I was desparate and hey, I was following "expert" advice!!) we decided to go with the flow and follow DD's lead. Everyone is MUCH happier.

Generally she goes down around 8pm (nursing to sleep) but if she's up later then she's up later. Some nights she doesn't go to bed until 10 and others she falls asleep at 7:30. Just like adults she doesn't go to sleep at the same time everyday - it depends on her mood, how tired she is, and TEETHING. That teething kills us.


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## goodheartedmama (Feb 1, 2007)

DH works nights. We stay up until around 10, sometimes later, sometimes earlier. It all depends on what we had going on that day, what time their naps were, etc. We sleep until around 9-9:30.


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## Rylins mama (Aug 22, 2007)

We get in bed at about 9 and I will put on a movie to watch and she will usually drift off by 10. Nights like last nioght she went to sleep at 9 and was up at 10 laying next to me while I watc hed my movie until 11:30. I like her to stay up until around 9:30 because that means she will sleep until at least 8. She wakes up anywhere from 8-9:30


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## thefragile7393 (Jun 21, 2005)

Ds goes to bed whenver he's tired....and that's almost always when we are ready for bed ourselves, rarely before, and that's usally between 9 and 11:00....rarely does it go past 10:30. On weekdays he's up 7-ish since I have to take him to the sitters, weekends between 7:30-8:00, rarely after
8, so he's still getting plenty of sleep. Since he shows inclination to go to bed 9-ish much of the time, I'm not worried about future school...or him sleeping in until 12.


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## Collinsky (Jul 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PatchyMama* 
At this point I kick myself on a daily basis for not trying to set some sort of schedule when they were younger.

I did try to set some sort of schedule, and I wish I'd just relaxed and let things happen. Now we do that and everyone's much happier! (AND more well-rested.) I figure that if this "unscheduled life" stops working, then we can always institute something then. I don't think there's ever any harm in going with what works in the moment, and adjusting or completely overhauling as needs change.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jul511riv* 
homeschooling would solve this!
















This does allow for a LOT of freedom!!







Which is a godsend, because we seem to be on a 26 hour day. I don't know anyone else with our schedule.


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## CanidFL (Jul 30, 2007)

I didn't read all the responses but DS pretty much rules his own bedtime. For awhile, it was around 7:30-8pm and up to nurse every hour. Then about a month ago he started napping later and stretched out his bedtime to 10-11pm. It's exhausting for me because I used to really like that 8-9pm to myself.

But honestly, I can't make the kid go to sleep. I would be pulling my hair out struggling for 3-4 hours trying to put a baby to sleep that isn't tired. I have a 20 min rule. At 8pm I put him in the carrier, nurse and bounce for 20 min. If he isn't asleep, he gets to play then I try again at 9pm. Rinse and repeat till he falls asleep. This works for my family.

I was blessed with a child that hates sleep









I do know that once he is in school or some sort of routine, then I might implement a bedtime schedule but that is far off from right now so no need to worry about it yet.


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## puddle (Aug 30, 2007)

My 1-year-old goes to sleep between 11 or midnight. She sleeps until about 11am, then takes 2 or 3 naps. She gets plenty of sleep and lots of extra daddy time. (Besides, she won't sleep without me, and I'm not willing to go to bed at 7pm.)


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## shepremiers (Jun 18, 2008)

When DH worked until midnight, I let Iris, who is 4 stay up until about 11pm and we all slept in in the morning. School starts in August though so we will be trying to get on some sort of schedule very soon.


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## pixilixi (Jun 20, 2006)

Ds goes to bed with us at around 11pm, and takes half an hour or so of nursing and reading to go to sleep. Sometimes I think I go to sleep before he does.

As long as he gets enough sleep, I'm fine with it - he gets heaps of daddy time, which many of his chums dont. The only struggle sometimes is we have playgroup at 10am, so it is a rush to get there on time. Lucky no - one minds if we are late.

Actually, it's great when we go camping - ds stays up late and listens to music around the campfire. Everyone always comments how "good" he is to stay up late without getting cranky and tired - and then we tell him that he ALWAYS goes to bed late, so it's hardly "changing his schedule" to be up late.

When we visited Spain a few years ago, I was struck by how many young children I saw out on the streets at night, with their parents/grandparents etc. It seemed like such a family friendly place. I thought it was great that kids can share in the good times like public music and dancing. Here, if we take ds to the supermarket at 9pm, we get some funny looks. And last night at the library, we had the old "what are you doing here out of bed at this time of night?" (It was 7.30!) But we sometimes share a conspiratorial nod and wave to other families with young kids out at taboo hour!

We are most likely going to homeschool. But if we don't, I figure that having to get up earlier for school will tire him out more, and he will naturally be tired and ready for bed earlier. I'll worry about it when the day comes.


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixilixi* 
When we visited Spain a few years ago, I was struck by how many young children I saw out on the streets at night, with their parents/grandparents etc. It seemed like such a family friendly place. I thought it was great that kids can share in the good times like public music and dancing. Here, if we take ds to the supermarket at 9pm, we get some funny looks.

Yes but in Spain, everyone takes a two-hour long siesta every afternoon. Especially during the summer, they sleep during the hot afternoons precisely so that they can stay up late during the cooler evenings, but they seem to keep up the same habit year-round.


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## waiflywaif (Oct 17, 2005)

Quote:

I envy my friends who "put theirs down" at the same time every day and get tons of free time to themselves, but they all did it by CIO and out their children in the crib and let them cry and are inflexible in their schedule- I know DH and I couldn't do that and I know DS wouldn't be able to cope with that as well as some kids could either.
Just wanted to say that we have always had bedtime at a set time every day and there was not a speck of CIO in my house. I hate how these things get equated all the time although there is no correlation between them.

My daughter is 5 and goes to bed around 8 pm most nights. We're flexible enough to push it back for special occasions, or bump it up if she's exhausted and having a difficult evening. I have an early riser, too---up at 6 or 7 am no matter what---so it's important that she get enough rest.

Frankly, I think my kid's generally happy temperament is about 90% her personality but also about 10% the fact that she gets enough sleep and feels secure in her bedtime routine. Sure, some kids hate routines but honestly? Most kids thrive on it.


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## Collinsky (Jul 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RomanGoddess* 
Yes but in Spain, everyone takes a two-hour long siesta every afternoon. Especially during the summer, they sleep during the hot afternoons precisely so that they can stay up late during the cooler evenings, but they seem to keep up the same habit year-round.

Insert emoticon of me, moving to Spain.


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## wallacesmum (Jun 2, 2006)

We usually want to go to bed before ds, but we are all pretty early-to-bed/early-to-risers. In bed by 10, 9 if we can.

When people talk about kids needing routine in conventional parenting circles, the unspoken assumption is often that they need a routine that the parent creates. We have routines that comform to our rhythms, and they are fluid. I can feel the internal and external resistance when I try to make our actions match the clock, instead of our rhythm. Peace is important to us, so we modify our lives to be peaceful. In our home, that means I SAH, and we don't make too many plans, and they aren't too early in the morning!


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rmzbm* 
Mine go to bed when tired. Whenever. Sometimes after me. I believe people should sleep when tired. We don't do bedtime.

We're the same. They usually just go to sleep when i do. Sometimes before, sometimes after. My toddler might want to continue playing with cars for a little while after i turn out the lights, but then will come to bed because he likes to be near mummy.

Both my kids have slept through the night from a young age. They can nurse if they want. Baby still nurses once.

With my oldest, ive never had sleep problems. I let him nap when he's ready, and give him the opportunity when i see the signs of tiredness. Same with baby.

I feel like im the only parent i know whose kids dont have sleep issues.

I also believe that overtiredness and sleep deprivation are big no no's. But my kids sleep when tired and that seems to work for them (and me)

We usually sleep around 9ish/10ish, and wake up 7ish. (as nature intended i guess)


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

ps. no dad to come home and get the kids all excited just before they go to bed/disrupt our peaceful routine...one of the many benefits of being a single mother. Sometimes i think that could be why we dont have this problem....


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## Squrrl (Mar 2, 2006)

So, so far those of you who do advocate a relatively set, relatively early bedtime are mostly commenting that you want to make sure your children are well rested, because, as I'm sure we can all agree, getting enough sleep is very important to a small child. I confess, though, that I'm still not getting the connection between any particular bedtime and sufficient sleep. For example, the Spain comments--"Yes, but in Spain everyone takes a 2 hour siesta every day." And so does my baby, and so, sometimes, do I!







In fact, she takes two or three one to three hour naps per day. I am not aware of anything special about nighttime sleep as opposed to daytime sleep (besides that if *I* fall asleep with all my clothes on and the sun still shining, I wake up logey and sweaty!)

Another point that I've thought about but neglected to mention has been raised a few times now, obliquely. To us, it's important that our children be included in the larger life of their community. Were we (and again, this is US, and we're well aware that other families have different needs) to put Evelyn to bed at 7 or 8 every night, she would not have that social interaction (and neither would we, more pressingly). In fact, I honestly feel that this is part of our society's damaging ignorance of and dislike of small children--if children and families are never out and about during normal social hours unless they're also late for bed and cranky, then it's hard for people to have a good image of them. Thoughts?

I want to emphasize that in no way am I criticizing those of you whose children go to sleep in the early evening--what I'd like to see is people feeling free to do what works for their family. On which note, I'd also love to hear any speculation as to how this taboo of having children up/out later in the evening arose and what on earth's behind it.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Squrrl:

ITA

Before it was necessary to have our DD in bed earlier (due to me going back to work) we LOVED having her up late with us. She still got plenty of sleep. She was happy and healthy and almost never cranky.

But soon - I'll be going back 4 days a week and at least 3 of those she'll be at daycare for - so we'll be getting her up at a more consistent time. So I think she'll switch to going to bed at a more consistent time.


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## waiflywaif (Oct 17, 2005)

People should sleep when they're tired. On the other hand, kids (and some adults) don't always know when they're tired. Having a bedtime and a bedtime routine, provided that it's a sensible one that takes into account the child's schedule, can help provide the cues that "oh hey I am tired, it's time to wind down and let my body rest."

I don't believe in arbitrary bedtimes---in fact, if a kid is consistently taking a long time to fall asleep that should be a hint that they're NOT tired and that the bedtime needs to be later. I do believe in "bedtime" as a concept and in bedtime routines. To *me* there is something slightly sad about a child who just goes and goes until their body can't handle it anymore and they pass out on the floor. I am not saying it's neglectful, but to me (once again, just my opinion) the security and closeness that comes from putting a child to bed, with a loving routine, is priceless.


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## wallacesmum (Jun 2, 2006)

I do think there is an old-fashioned Puritan element to the stigma. I have only recently realized that I used to be totally judgmental of adults who stayed up "too late." How were they ever going to get healthy, wealthy and wise? I stayed up all night in high school, because it was "cool," so staying up late must be immature, right?

Of course, as soon as I started to deconstruct those ideas, consciously, I realized that they were lame-o.

The need for an enormous normative set of approved social mores must be human, because it happens in all the cultures I am familiar with and it helps with the shorthand diagnosis of individuals that people tend to engage in. And there are obvious reasons, having to do with the sun, why things tend to happen during the daytime. The moral component just evolves out of the logistics, sometimes, I think.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

Quote:

I did try to set some sort of schedule, and I wish I'd just relaxed and let things happen. Now we do that and everyone's much happier! (AND more well-rested.) I figure that if this "unscheduled life" stops working, then we can always institute something then. I don't think there's ever any harm in going with what works in the moment, and adjusting or completely overhauling as needs change.
Yeah, I think that depends on your child. Like I said, the first 5 years of my oldest daughters life she went to bed when she was ready to. Now, she is completely incapable of falling asleep on her own no matter what time we start bedtime. She would and has stayed up until 2 am only to have to get up at 7:30 to go to school. Not all children intuitively are able to recognize when they are tired and submit to it.

Sure we could homeschool, but she wouldn't enjoy it and it doesn't solve the problem of her learning to fall asleep before she passes out from exhaustion









ETA - I am not sure of the stigma people are talking about in regards to keeping their kids up. We often took the kids out late to go do things and we never experienced anything negative. We avoid it at all costs now becasue by 7/8 they are tired and less in control, but they get plenty of socialization throughout the rest of the day.


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## marzanmama (Oct 10, 2007)

To me this seems like one of those "every family is different" issues.

When my first ds was in the 8-18 month range, he was miserable and cranky at bedtime until we realized he was overtired. So we started putting him to bed at 6pm, sometimes a little earlier. It really helped. I did feel a little freaky because it really was "unconventional"... my friends' kids were just waking up from their naps!

Now our 2- and 4- year-old ds' go to bed around 7:30-8, sometimes later in summer. I get them A LOT of exercise during the day and they are just wiped out after dinner. I will say that I am an early riser, so I'm sure that has affected them.

Sometimes it's comical trying to figure out a time to get together with a dear friend whose family is on such a different schedule. Mornings? No--their kids sleep in. Their lunchtime is our naptime. Our park time is their naptime. Their park time is our dinner time. But we love them and manage to find a window!


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## blizzard_babe (Feb 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *waiflywaif* 
People should sleep when they're tired. On the other hand, kids (and some adults) don't always know when they're tired. Having a bedtime and a bedtime routine, provided that it's a sensible one that takes into account the child's schedule, can help provide the cues that "oh hey I am tired, it's time to wind down and let my body rest."

I don't believe in arbitrary bedtimes---in fact, if a kid is consistently taking a long time to fall asleep that should be a hint that they're NOT tired and that the bedtime needs to be later. I do believe in "bedtime" as a concept and in bedtime routines. To *me* there is something slightly sad about a child who just goes and goes until their body can't handle it anymore and they pass out on the floor. I am not saying it's neglectful, but to me (once again, just my opinion) the security and closeness that comes from putting a child to bed, with a loving routine, is priceless.

I pretty much agree with this. Bedtime was one of the greatest times I had with my parents; I remember my dad singing our special lullabye while walking back and forth between my sister's room and mine. But, I'm a certain kind of person (I thrive on routine), so maybe all kids don't enjoy it as much as I did.

I was that "doesn't know when she's tired" kid (and kind of am still that way). I needed my parents to tell me to go to sleep, or I became a cranky mess of overtired angst. I have a sneaking suspicion that my son is the same way. My sister, on the other hand, would ask to be put to bed whenever she was tired, starting pretty much as soon as she had the language to do so. I STILL have to force myself to go to bed at a decent time, even though I routinely get up pretty early, and my sister can still drop whatever she's doing and hit the sack whenever she feels the need. I have a sneaking suspicion that my son will follow in my footsteps (although at seven weeks, who really knows?)... my mom said that the only tiny baby she's ever seen who fights sleep better than Isaac was me.









One thing I love about my parents' approach to sleep, looking back, is that they and their friends rarely got babysitters when they wanted to hang out and stay up late on weekends. Adults would drink a few beers and play cards, and us kids would play outside or inside (depending on weather) until a slightly later-than-normal bedtime. Then we'd all get put to bed in the room of whichever kids lived in the house we were visiting. Usually we'd stay up for a while, playing, but would drop off only slightly later than our normal bedtimes. I was always the LAST one awake, of course.









I am seeing what I consider to be unwarranted judgment from the no-bedtimers towards the bedtimers. I understand that in a lot of other places in society, the judgment goes in reverse, but two wrongs doesn't necessarily make a right. A bedtime isn't necessarily an arbitrary parent-enforced-for-no-good-reason-other-than-parental-convenience rule, just like a kid up late isn't necessarily an oh-my-lord-those-parents-must-be-negligent kind of thing. I have friends (I use the term loosely) whose daughter stays up late, and, quite frankly, it's awful for her. She starts crying and screaming and tantruming and basically BEGGING to be put to bed, but nope. She only sleeps with mom, and mom's not ready to stop hanging out with her friends to put her to bed. My coworker's kids, on the other hand, regularly stay up late and thrive on it. When they show signs of needing to go down, she puts them down ASAP.

Bedtime can be done in a gentle, respectful way. No-bedtime can be done in a gentle, respectful way. Same dif', as I see it. Whatever works for your kids and family.


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## cotopaxi (Sep 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *waiflywaif* 
People should sleep when they're tired. On the other hand, kids (and some adults) don't always know when they're tired. Having a bedtime and a bedtime routine, provided that it's a sensible one that takes into account the child's schedule, can help provide the cues that "oh hey I am tired, it's time to wind down and let my body rest."

I don't believe in arbitrary bedtimes---in fact, if a kid is consistently taking a long time to fall asleep that should be a hint that they're NOT tired and that the bedtime needs to be later. I do believe in "bedtime" as a concept and in bedtime routines. To *me* there is something slightly sad about a child who just goes and goes until their body can't handle it anymore and they pass out on the floor. I am not saying it's neglectful, but to me (once again, just my opinion) the security and closeness that comes from putting a child to bed, with a loving routine, is priceless.

I agree with all of the above. I think that _most_ young children - most people in general - are programmed to sleep best when it is dark out - around here, about 8pm to 6am or so. And I think that _most_ people, especially children, sleep best with a regular routine. In my experience as a babysitter for dozens of families over the years, I found that the ones with erratic bedtimes who were allowed to stay up until they choose to go to bed tended to be overtired and cranky a lot. And I know I personally feel worse when I'm up late and when my schedule shifts frequently.

Now if you insist that your child is different and really does sleep best from midnight to 11am and with an erratic bedtime - okay! There are always exceptions to every rule and since I don't know your child, I'll take your word for it. However, for our family, I'm starting with the assumption that my child is like most that I have known and will do best with an early, regular bedtime - if/when she shows me that this isn't true for her, I'll adapt.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *waiflywaif* 
Just wanted to say that we have always had bedtime at a set time every day and there was not a speck of CIO in my house. I hate how these things get equated all the time although there is no correlation between them.

Same here. I don't "force" my child to sleep at 7:30pm. I give her a nice warm bath, breastfeed her, dress her in her soft cotton pajamas, snuggle with her, give her her favorite soft blankey, and she drifts off. I resent the link people are making between routines and CIO.


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Squrrl* 
So, so far those of you who do advocate a relatively set, relatively early bedtime are mostly commenting that you want to make sure your children are well rested, because, as I'm sure we can all agree, getting enough sleep is very important to a small child. I confess, though, that I'm still not getting the connection between any particular bedtime and sufficient sleep. For example, the Spain comments--"Yes, but in Spain everyone takes a 2 hour siesta every day." And so does my baby, and so, sometimes, do I!







In fact, she takes two or three one to three hour naps per day. I am not aware of anything special about nighttime sleep as opposed to daytime sleep (besides that if *I* fall asleep with all my clothes on and the sun still shining, I wake up logey and sweaty!)

Well, first off, most children under the age of two need BOTH a nap AND to get a long sleep at night. If you can get a child older than 3 to continue to take a nap in the day and go to bed at a later time at night, by all means, go for it (although I would suggest ensuring that the room is completely dark during naptime - better for the brain). My DD has absolutely refused to have regular naps during the day since around age 2.5, no matter how late she stayed up the night before and no matter how tired she appears. Also, our work and school days are simply not culturally adapted to a siesta. Don't forget that in Spain, everyone (children and adults) takes one. So businesses close, schools close, offices take breaks. In North America and much of the rest of Europe, daily life is not adapted to everyone taking an afternoon nap. If you can find a school or daycare that incorporates one, great!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Squrrl* 
I want to emphasize that in no way am I criticizing those of you whose children go to sleep in the early evening--what I'd like to see is people feeling free to do what works for their family. On which note, I'd also love to hear any speculation as to how this taboo of having children up/out later in the evening arose and what on earth's behind it.

I think its simple: small children who stay up late tend to get cranky and it is very obvious that they are tired and need to go to bed. Here in Italy, children go to bed with their parents. I can remember having dinner with friends in their home. We were there until 11 PM and their two-year old was up the whole time, crying, whining, rubbing her eyes. AT the point where the mother was at her wit's end trying to console her daughter, I finally said "I think she might be tired". To which the father replied, almost sternly, "she goes to bed when WE go to bed."

To me, this was a ridiculous policy and cruel to the child. That two year old needed to go to bed. Desparately.

On the other end of the stick, I have had friends insist that I "bring the baby" with me to their dinner parties and I have been miserable the entire time there because their idea that I can "just put the baby to bed in the spare bedroom when she gets tired" was a simplistic approach for an infant used to a certain sleep routine and certain sleep environment. After one try of that approach, we always refused to take the baby with us and opted for a babysitter. Yes, children do get left out of social events that way but I just cannot see how the alternative of a miserable overtired child is better for anyone, especially the mother, who is expected to "babysit" while everyone else socializes.







:


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## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Squrrl* 
On which note, I'd also love to hear any speculation as to how this taboo of having children up/out later in the evening arose and what on earth's behind it.

Also want to add that going to bed later does not mean that you get up in the morning equally late. In fact most studies show that 1) the best sleep occurs before midnight and 2) you sleep in less in the morning, no matter how late you sleep; therefore, you never completely recuperate the lost sleep by going to bed late.

And that goes for both children and adults.


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## heket (Nov 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *marzanmama* 
To me this seems like one of those "every family is different" issues.

Not to mention every child is different. We tried a set bedtime with dd and she wasn't for it. Even now, she will stay up later, but she will also sleep in, so it balances out. She also dropped naptime completely between 2.5 and 3yo.

Ds, on the other hand, has since birth been sleepy/ ready for bed by 9:30pm. This summer he's extended it to 10pm. However, he's up between 7:30 and 8am. Usually it's 7-7:30am. If he's up past 10, he'll still wake around 7-7:30am and will simply take a longer nap to compensate. At 3, it doesn't look like he'll give up naps soon.

In the end, I think it's one of those things where you have to find what works best for your family. If we had a set schedule where the kids had to be somewhere at a set time each morning, we'd probably have a different schedule so that they would have a full night's sleep. But as this is not a problem for us, we will just continue with what works for us until there's a need to change it.


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## KimPM (Nov 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CanidFL* 
But honestly, I can't make the kid go to sleep. I would be pulling my hair out struggling for 3-4 hours trying to put a baby to sleep that isn't tired.

I was blessed with a child that hates sleep









Yep, there's two things you can't make a child do: eat and sleep. We've BTDT on both of those fronts. For the first 18 months or so, as much as I would have LOVED a schedule, he just couldn't get regulated. It was impossible. It seems that I spent most of my waking hours during that time trying to get him to sleep. At some point I just let it be, and let him stay up late. In the past few months he's been a LOT more consistent, and so only now can we have any semblance of a schedule (now that DS is ready and almost asking for it).

and to waiflywaif, who said:
"To *me* there is something slightly sad about a child who just goes and goes until their body can't handle it anymore and they pass out on the floor. I am not saying it's neglectful, but to me (once again, just my opinion) the security and closeness that comes from putting a child to bed, with a loving routine, is priceless."

It's easy to pass judgment if you have not been there and do not have a child like this. There are some children with special needs that have trouble with regulation....this includes going to sleep. When you have spent months trying every night for 3-5 hours to get a child to sleep (after already having spent hours earlier in the day trying to get him to nap) you eventually try the "let them tire themselves out" approach. Sometimes it's the only thing that works. Thankfully for us, it was a phase that he grew out of. It is a lot easier now that he seems to be more regulated, but I've experienced both sides of the coin now.

In the end, I would say to do whatever works for your child and your family. I cannot say that putting a child earlier or later to bed than mine is either better or worse, unless it's not working for you. In that case, try something different.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RomanGoddess* 
I think its simple: small children who stay up late tend to get cranky and it is very obvious that they are tired and need to go to bed. Here in Italy, children go to bed with their parents. I can remember having dinner with friends in their home. We were there until 11 PM and their two-year old was up the whole time, crying, whining, rubbing her eyes. AT the point where the mother was at her wit's end trying to console her daughter, I finally said "I think she might be tired". To which the father replied, almost sternly, "she goes to bed when WE go to bed."

I find this offensive...

My DD for the longest time would take a 30 minute nap at 7 or 8pm (no matter what we did - besides go to bed with her and even that didn't always work - would keep her asleep). Then she'd be happily awake until 11:30 or 12am.

That was her natural rhythm. And as a newborn - we encouraged it. We LOVED it. It really did give us alot of flexibility.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience - but I can assure you than my DD has stayed up much later than that without rubbing her eyes or being whiny and cranky.

My DD is 19 months. And we're about to scrap her nap. When she naps for more then 30 or 45 minutes (yesterday she took a 2.5 hour nap) she stays up until 12 or 1am. So - not all kids under 2 need naps.


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## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

I have never considered not having a routine or general guidelines about bedtime. However, kids/family needs are different over time. I get it with infants that their needs are variable and so sleeping times can vary widely. And obviously homeschooling families who do not have a need or desire to be up in the AM have a different story as well. My kids and our family does best with routine, a flexible routine, but routine none the less. We've never done a speck of CIO, but we've gently made space for sleep to happen. I honestly have super grumpy kids when they are up too late, and I believe that especially in the winter,adequate sleep is one of the best defenses against becoming sick.

Also, we have small farm animals that require care in the early AM, and we need to be gardening early in the AM, before the heat in the summer, so our lives are not conducive to sleeping in every morning! I admit to feeling like that would be a real luxury.

In the end I don't think anyone is necessarily wrong for their personal choices. Again, what works for you at one moment in time may not later, so it's best to be flexible. Oh, my kids are school aged, so that influences our perspective right now.


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## Squrrl (Mar 2, 2006)

I confess to also being rather miffed at the suggestion that all children who stay up late to engage in social situations are generally cranky and overtired, or that I am in any way neglecting my child's sleep. Evelyn has been the life of several evening parties--cheerful and active. No one has ever criticized us for having her out late, though some have expressed surprise that she's so cheerful and cooperative "past bedtime". If she gets cranky and tired, obviously, we _leave_, and she falls asleep in the carseat on the way home.

How it works for us is that if, at any point, Evelyn gets consistently cranky (that is, not just startled or frustrated or hungry or bored), I take her to bed and try to nurse/sing her to sleep. About half the time, she nurses for a bit and then is refreshed and enthusiastic about life...even if the lights are off for the night and we've gone through the whole bedtime routine ourselves. If I don't wait until she shows signs (fussiness, eye rubbing) of sleepiness, my success rate is somewhere around zero. Using this system, she averages about ten hours at night (not counting brief wakeups) and 3-6 during the day. This would seem to add up to roughly the recommended amount for her age. I have no doubt that as she gets older, things will shift. Already we've dropped one nap and lengthened the others somewhat. She seems to be a middle-ground sort of baby...never goes to sleep on her own just because she's tired, but rarely (any more, anyway) fights sleep when she is tired.

I would be interested to see references regarding your assertions about sleeping patterns, RomanGoddess, because they do not at all match up with my own experiences or, indeed, the sleeping patterns of some traditional cultures. On the other hand, they are just the sort of information pro-bedtime that I was wondering about when I started this thread.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

Her generalization about children who are up late is not any more offensive than your generalizations about children who have a bedtime that does not match up with yours


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## matey (Sep 15, 2006)

My ds gets tired around 7-8. He sometimes passes out if I need to keep him up. I didnt make him CIO to get to this point. That is just his moment. Fine with me. His dad gets home around 4:15, so that isnt an issue. He wakes between 7-8, sometimes earlier.

But, sometimes, if his naps get messed up and he naps later, he doesnt go to sleep till 8-9. So that is what we do.

I do try and keep the day consistent, and I try to be home for naps, otherwise he wants to nap between 5-6, and bedtime gets pushed too far back, and he still wakes early, and then we are all really tired.


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## Squrrl (Mar 2, 2006)

Quote:

Her generalization about children who are up late is not any more offensive than your generalizations about children who have a bedtime that does not match up with yours








:







:














didn't MAKE any generalizations about children who have different bedtimes. In fact, I've specifically been advocating family choice the whole time!

Quote:

what I'd like to see is people feeling free to do what works for their family

Quote:

I can definitely see wanting to prepare a kid for getting up for school, too.

Quote:

I'm well aware that some people are morning people and others are...not.
Truly, dictatorial.


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## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

Yeah, all the nasty generalizations seems to be on the part of those who have their kids in bed early and think those of us whose kids stay up late are forcing them to stay awake for our own selfish reasons. Some of us are night owls. Some children are even *gasp* night owls. My kids go to bed when they're tired, which is usually around 11pm or so. Once in awhile the youngest won't go to sleep when the lights go out & I'll end up taking a few hours later than that to get him to sleep. Quite often my oldest will stay awake until 2 or so, even when he's in bed & tired.

Every family & every child is different. We do what works for us. If it works for your family & child to have them in bed at 7 or 8 or even earlier, great! My kids are happy, healthy & well-rested and I've found all the comments implying a late bedtime = bad/selfish parenting extremely offensive & uncalled for. I would reply to specific comments made, but honestly, I'm too angry and I know I'd say something I later regret.


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## waiflywaif (Oct 17, 2005)

I kind of conflated two things in my post---late bedtimes and NO bedtimes. Truly, I don't care when a kid goes to bed as long as they get enough sleep. But we're a fan of routines in our house, and I don't agree with the whole "just curl up whenever you get tired" thing (unless it's a special occasion like a party or something). To me (speaking only for myself) it feels like abandonment. I consider it my responsibility to help my child get to sleep, at whatever clock-hour is right for her.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

We have always put DD to bed early because she has never slept past 7 am in her life. (Well, since early infancy.) DS is showing signs of being just as much of a lark as she is--he's up for the day at 5:30 am these days (goes to bed around 6:30 because he's tired then).

DD would happily stay up later if we let her. Often I would LIKE her to go to bed later, as it's impractical to have her go at 8. We occasionally do stay out late, and she does not " act tired" in the conventional sense; in fact she's usually wound up and really hard to get to sleep. But then she's no fun at all the next day. I wonder if some parents here think the kids are not tired (because they don't go down to sleep easily at an earlier hour) when they are actually overtired....when kids are overtired they often get really wired, YK?

I also think a lot of behavioral issues are related to lack of sleep. If you truly find your child is sweet, charming, cooperative, and happy on less sleep than average (in my experience, kids who go to bed late do get less overall sleep), then fine; but if not, look at the sleep issue and reassess.


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## AppleCrisp (Aug 19, 2005)

I was just coming here to post about this! We have been battling sleep with DS for two years. He's two years old. Following conventional advice, they always say earlier is better - between 7-8 pm. But we spend an hour helping him to sleep, and its usually because he's cried so hard he's exhausted. He also wakes up at 7 a.m. sharp regardless of when he went to bed the night before.

So...it seems like a LOT of people are putting the kids down much later than I am, and maybe I should try letting him stay up longer. But...and this may seem like a stupid question...what the heck do you do with an only-child toddler for three hours or so every evening, after baths and dinner, that is calm yet still interesting? By 8 pm we've already colored, painted, read books, gone for walks, been outside, etc and I find myself desperate to entertain him (we don't watch TV with him either). He's not the snuggly type either, and he's not good at playing by himself yet.


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## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AppleCrisp* 
But...and this may seem like a stupid question...what the heck do you do with an only-child toddler for three hours or so every evening, after baths and dinner, that is calm yet still interesting? By 8 pm we've already colored, painted, read books, gone for walks, been outside, etc and I find myself desperate to entertain him (we don't watch TV with him either). He's not the snuggly type either, and he's not good at playing by himself yet.

We don't "entertain" her... She plays with her toys. She's 18 months and it works fine. Sometimes we will play with her toys - but often one of us is cleaning and the other is on the computer.


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## pixilixi (Jun 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AppleCrisp* 
So...it seems like a LOT of people are putting the kids down much later than I am, and maybe I should try letting him stay up longer. But...and this may seem like a stupid question...what the heck do you do with an only-child toddler for three hours or so every evening, after baths and dinner, that is calm yet still interesting? By 8 pm we've already colored, painted, read books, gone for walks, been outside, etc and I find myself desperate to entertain him (we don't watch TV with him either). He's not the snuggly type either, and he's not good at playing by himself yet.

This is much easier in summer when you can go outside for long walks or a play in the park! In winter, we often go to the library or the indoor pool in the evening - it's always so much quieter at 7.30pm - rather than 5pm, when it's totally packed with kids. It totally suits ds to avoid crowds of kids.

DH also plays guitar a lot, so he will often play in our lounge and sing while we just hang out. We might draw, do some puzzles... ds is obsessed with household appliances, so he'll spend quite a bit of time "playing" with them. He doesn't need much input from me when he's doing this - apart from supervising to make sure he's safe.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

We are solar sensitive. Tired when the sun goes down - wide awake once its up. In the summer its a struggle to get them down - so bedtime moves back to 8 or 8:30ish. If I let them stay up later - they would be miserable the next day. They do not adjust their "wake up" time (i.e. sleep in) when they go to bed later - they still get up with the sun - and now I have cranky melty kids.

Nope. We are pretty scheduled on the sleeping front.


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## treehuggermama (Jan 3, 2007)

We have always had early bedtimes around here but our kids also always "cued" that that was what they needed ie rubbing eyes etc. We like it because then dh and I have time to reconnect. The only downside is that they are up by 6 or 6:30 every am without fail and keeping them up later never changed that ...


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## Hokulele (Mar 2, 2005)

I should probably read through the responses, but no time right now. Just wanted to add my two cents. I don't think it matters at all what time kids go to bed and when they get up (or how often they nap) as long as they are getting *enough* sleep.

For the 1st 18 months of DD's life I had relentless insomnia. I couldn't fall asleep at night but I'd be able to sleep in the morning. So DD started going to bed later ... 10pm, 11pm... and the up-side was that she'd sleep-in. Most mornings we'd sleep until 9:30 or 10am, sometimes as late as almost noon. Since she wasn't in school (I'm a SAHM) and we didn't have other commitments, it really didn't matter that we missed most mornings. And there were other bonuses. DH works until 6pm or 7pm so if DD had been on a more "normal" schedule, she'd have seen very little of DH during the week.

Now that DD is older and my insomnia is gone, we're back to a more "normal" schedule so that getting up for preschool (2 mornings a week) goes well. But until it starts cutting into activities you want to do, I'd say go for whatever schedule works for you! As long as they are getting enough hours of sleep, who cares when it is?


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## justthinkn (Apr 11, 2008)

I vote, who cares as long as they get enough sleep? Do what works for your family. We all have our rationales.

We have one truly "scheduled" moment a day, the morning wake-up at 6a, because that's a rhythm that works for our family and DD is part of our family life. I love that she has morning connection time with her Daddy, that I get a few moments to myself to wake-up before DH leaves for walk, that we can all eat breakfast together... Then we follow her cues the rest of the day, trying to help her get enough rest - helping, not forcing! The early wake-up generally means an early bedtime, and yeah, we like that







We still socialize, just at our own home, or in the afternoon, or occasionally by flexing her daily routine to stay up later. If we help her cue into her own tiredness throughout the day, then she wakes up totally happy at 6a.


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## nixie_nox (Jun 30, 2008)

Funny you should create this thread.

DS won't go to bed till 10 or 11. I was reading an article not to long ago by a child psychologist who said, kids go to bed when they are tired, period.

I have tried the bedtime thing, it just doesn't happen. If my son doesn't want to go to sleep, he won't.

Both my husband and I are nightowls. We are miserable in the mornings, and will never get used to it.
So naturally our son is the same way..

A and when he is tired, he will roll over and go to bed.

The only problems with this is... we don't get any alone time in the evening, or at all, DS rarely naps anymore.

And I work in the mornings, so he has to get up to go to the babysitters. Which is frought with crankiness. So an ideal time for me would be 9. We spend time with him, we get an hour to ourselves.

Is my child hyperactive since he doesn't get 13 hours of sleep?


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *waiflywaif* 
Just wanted to say that we have always had bedtime at a set time every day and there was not a speck of CIO in my house. I hate how these things get equated all the time although there is no correlation between them.

Frankly, I think my kid's generally happy temperament is about 90% her personality but also about 10% the fact that she gets enough sleep and feels secure in her bedtime routine. Sure, some kids hate routines but honestly? Most kids thrive on it.

i think the problem is that its often (in mainstream) associated with CIO b/c thats what it is a result of.









i think sleep has a lot to do with a child's temperament. I didnt think this so much a few months ago but im in the middle of Sleepless in America and it has changed the way we are doing things..but not b/c a book changed us..its b/c for about 2.5 years, we were good to go....ds did not have a bed time..he went to bed and napped when he was tired. it worked for him and he is a very easy going child. I was never restricted in going out or anything (w/ him) b/c he was always happy and pleasant until he was tired and he simply went to sleep. Recently, however, he began having night terrors and not sleeping so well..and not going to sleep so well (had to do alot w/ my pregnancy and milk drying up and him not nursing much anymore). So...things have changed and we are now gently incorporating a "wake up time" for him (around (9:30 am) and working on setting his circadian clock...which has been going well lately. He has gone from 11 hours of sleep to 13, the average recommended sleep for ages 2-3 from what i understand. Its working for us now but its much much harder. We are not scheduling type of ppl....i have the luxury of being a SAHM for now and we do not schedule a ton of activities so he is not worn out. There are sooo many factors in why children sleep or not....this book is opening my eyes to some things that i have been doing that havent been conducive to ds sleeping lately....but its approach is very flexible, as i believe it should be. Operating with absolutely no schedule for 2.5 years worked for us. Now that he has changed and our circumstances have changed, we need a bit more structure for him...but we also have to respect the rest of the family....we are not ones to "close down" our home at 7 or 8pm..it just does not work for us. Dad doesnt get home until around 6:30pm. Its also not good for kids to eat and then go to bed (one of teh things i learned from this book also) and with a 6:30 dinner time and a 7 or 8 bedtime, that woudl be happening...so we avoid that also. Its such a delicate balance.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *waiflywaif* 
People should sleep when they're tired. On the other hand, kids (and some adults) don't always know when they're tired. Having a bedtime and a bedtime routine, provided that it's a sensible one that takes into account the child's schedule, can help provide the cues that "oh hey I am tired, it's time to wind down and let my body rest."

I don't believe in arbitrary bedtimes---in fact, if a kid is consistently taking a long time to fall asleep that should be a hint that they're NOT tired and that the bedtime needs to be later. I do believe in "bedtime" as a concept and in bedtime routines. To *me* there is something slightly sad about a child who just goes and goes until their body can't handle it anymore and they pass out on the floor. I am not saying it's neglectful, but to me (once again, just my opinion) the security and closeness that comes from putting a child to bed, with a loving routine, is priceless.

you had me until the end. I do agree with the concept that children should sleep when they are tired, and that they do not always know what those cues are.

I think your last statement re: a child who goes until they collapse is probably not what most ppl are talking about here, though. Its more (at least my son's first 2.5 years) a case of playing and then showing cues of wanting to nurse, sleep, etc. etc. My son has never just collapsed on the floor and fallen asleep (even for a nap). I have simply followed his cues but at times that has been at midnight....most of the time around 10ish pm. I think its safe to assume that moms here are not simply ignoring their children's cues and simply waiting until they collapse before putting them into bed.

Another issue around bedtime is bathtimes too. We don't bath kids every night. Its not healthy for my son for one and causes his eczema to flare up alot....so that one ritual that most ppl count on hasnt been available to us.







Now that he's a bit older, we have turned the hot tub down and spend a few minutes together in teh hot tub at night, which seems to aid in calming his internal motor a bit.

Really..i think both sides get so defensive w/ this issue (no one person) as w/ many parenting issues, there are pros and cons to each side. I have been cosleeping for close to 18 years, and i can definitely see the appeal of a crib or separate bed for my kids....but it just doesnt work for my family. It does work for others though.


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

We've always just let DS stay up till he gets tired and falls asleep. We were laying him down then in the family room with us on a little 'bed' (pile of blankets, basicly). However, on Saturday I cleaned up "his" room (where the crib & his clothes & some of his toys are stored), and converted the crib to a "toddler bed"... so the last couple nights when he's fallen asleep I've carried him upstairs and laid him down upthere. First night he slept there for 2 hours, last night for 3! So, we're improving







Its nice cause' when we goto bed he doesn't get woken up being moved/carried... and we get at least a LITTLE bit of 'adult time' by OURSELVES in OUR bed!

I honestly don't see the point in having a dedicated bed-time (or nap-time). He gets up with us, mostly around 7 or 8 and takes a nap or two depending on the day.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
i think the problem is that its often (in mainstream) associated with CIO b/c thats what it is a result of.









Really? How do you know this?


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## wallacesmum (Jun 2, 2006)

I always feel like that is a big part of the CIO "marketing," if that's what you mean. "Kids need a set bedtime, set by the parent, to be healthy and happy and to get the parent's needs met, so the parent needs to force this bedtime through CIO."

That's very different than what is being discussed here, IMO. We seem to agree that listening to the child and acknowledging his or her cues is the important thing.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
Really? How do you know this?

by listening to other parents over the last 18 years (almost...short by 2 months) who have told me that they get their kids on a rigid schedule early on and do so whether the kids like it or not...and for those who dont like it, they cry until they figure out its not going to change.

there is a HUGE coorelation w/ most mainstream night time parenting and CIO.

why do you believe what i stated not to be true? just wondering why you questioned that one statement vs. everything else i said.


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## sarah04 (Dec 31, 2006)

I'm glad to find this thread b/c this has really been an issue for us in the last month. I feel not so alone.









Just a thought about the correlation b/t CIO and set bedtimes. The ONLY way I could get my kids down at a consistent, early bedtime would be to let them CIO. Some kids would do it, I know, but my kids ... I don't know what the issue is!

Maybe they're just night owls like me. Ha ha. Too bad they don't sleep in ...


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## Kelly Jene (Jun 8, 2008)

For my family, it works best for our boys to go to bed between 10-11:00 and they wake up when they wake up. My youngest consistently wakes between 9:30-10am and my oldest wakes up almsot on the dot at 8am. They are getting enough sleep for their bodies. They are never cranky at bed time. This is purely what works for us. Oh and I'll add that we homeschool which does allow for them to sleep later.


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## waiflywaif (Oct 17, 2005)

Quote:

The ONLY way I could get my kids down at a consistent, early bedtime would be to let them CIO. Some kids would do it, I know, but my kids ... I don't know what the issue is!
You know your kids best, so I do believe you. However (I know it's an anecdote and not data), almost everyone I know puts their kids to bed within a range of times that would probably be considered on the "early" side around here, and everyone I know is also anti-CIO and has never tried that. I know we haven't. Not even once.

There are many ways to lovingly parent a child to sleep without CIO, as I'm sure you know. Of course, the kids have to be tired and ready for bed to start with. Maybe some of the CIO-ers who enforce the early bedtimes also have problematic *daytime* routines---too late a nap, too long a nap, or just plain napping when the child is ready to be done with that---not enough exercise and outdoor time---something.


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## riverscout (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
by listening to other parents over the last 18 years (almost...short by 2 months) who have told me that they get their kids on a rigid schedule early on and do so whether the kids like it or not...and for those who dont like it, they cry until they figure out its not going to change.

And that is your personal experience. However, I don't know anyone personally who does that type of thing, at least none of the people I talk to about parenting stuff with, not even the ones that could be stereotyped as "mainstream." And yes, they all have a regular bedtime for their kid. Maybe it just depends on where you live and who you hang out with.







I am sure the type of thing you are describing happens. I know about books like Babywise and Healthy Sleep Habits Happy Child, and I agree with *wallacesmum* that some of the sleep "expert" dogma advocates for set bedtimes and CIO if needed to get that result. However, I still don't see how anyone can make the argument that there is correlation between set/early bedtimes and CIO because of that or even because they know someone who does a set bedtime coupled with CIO. For every person someone could name that does that, I could name one that doesn't. I just really don't see the point in conflating the two issues.


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## haleyelianasmom (Nov 5, 2005)

I'm glad I found this thread. We had a horrible night last nigh just because she fell asleep in the car at 8pm so I thought "woohoo! early bedtime! I can ahve some me time!" and she woke up all cranky as I carried her into the houe and then didn't fall asleep until after 10. My husband and I wasted hours on that. it is just so so frustrating. bedtime has always been our most frustrating time. When teething, she wouldn't go to bed until midnight or later. The other night we just didn't push bedtime early and she went to bed relatively easily... at like 11, 11:30. We've even cut out her nap and that worked for a few days, but we're right back to late bedtimes. Then she'll sleep in to maybe 9:30 which is fine because I'm home and exhausted, but we end up late for all the playgroups and LLL meetings that happen at 10, I end up staying up until 1:30 every night to get stuff done and have some "me" time.

So I'm going to read through responses, but it is so frustrating when I hear from my aunt that her kids (3 and 5) are just exhausted and fall asleep by like 7. I feel like I'm failing as a parent, especially because I end up getting so frustrated with her at night that I turn into a bad mother (I yell and slam doors, I know... ) when I generally really calm with her during the day. It's just that spending a couple hours on bedtime wears on the nerves. DH and I never get any time together alone because she goes to bed so late.

I've tried routines and, like I said, cutting out her nap, but she still goes to bed late. I wonder if she just has a different internal clock? What about the melatonin? I guess it's a good thing we're thinking of homeschooling because I have a feeling she would just end up sleep deprived going to bed at 11 and getting up at 7.

ETA: DD is almost 3. We still cosleep. She doesn't nurse to sleep and hasn't for a while. She's only nursing maybe once a day. We generally brush teeth, go potty, read two books, then lie down with her until she's asleep, but sometimes that means me laying with her for a half hour, then my husband taking over and lying with her for another hour or so because he has more patience at night.


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## Stinkerbell (Aug 11, 2005)

I'm sort of in the middle here. I DO believe that children need guidance to develop healthy habits (and sleeping is one of the top three, IMO). If left entirely to their own devices they are very likely to be distracted by things they want to see/do and they won't get a solid sleep. That leads to lots of problems.

OTOH, I do not advocate bedtimes. I am not tired at exactly Xpm every night, nor do I feel ready to pop out of bed at the same time every morning. Lots of factors come into play regarding hoe much sleep we need and it varies.

AND...each of my 3 children are quite different in their needs. My 14yo has emotional disorders and really can be his own worst enemy when it comes to sleep. He needs gentle guidelines and encouragement to follow good habits.

My 12yo is pretty self regulated. There are nights he is up long past us (parents) and that's fine with us as long as he is able to do what needs to get done the following day. We rarely have an issue with him.

My 3yo needs very little sleep and his sleep is very fitful and broken up. He absolutely NEEDS a routine int he same ballpark time frame (8:30-9:30ish) every night. He wakes several times and when he wakes varies greatly.

So I guess I try hard to take into account each child's individual needs while also maintaining my status as The Parent.


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

I really feel like the outsider here!









My dd has pretty much always had a set (within reason) bedtime, with a predictable bedtime routine.

Mostly so my dp and I can have adult time at night. We like to make things for dinner (sometimes) that I know dd won't like, so she has something kid friendlier earlier in the evening.

We also like to watch the news or new movies that she can't see. It's just important to us to have that alone time.

Maybe I'm very lucky in that it's never been an issue. At age two she went to bed at around seven pm, age three it was seven thirty-ish, and now at age five she stays up until around eight.

Plus we don't homeschool (have no desire at all) and she needs to be well rested and ready to go the next day.


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## Phoebe (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bczmama* 
"Is there some actual _reason_ that people put kids to bed so early?"

Yup. I think sleep is as important as good nutrition for current and future health (both mental and physical). Since I'm not willing to let the kids sleep until noon (they're up at 6:30 M-F to have breakfast and time with Dad), they go to bed earlier. I've been using guidelines that recommend (including naptimes) 13.75 hours for 1 year, 13.5 for 18 months, 13 for two years, and 12 for 3 years.

I have noticed an improved difference in temperment when I moved towards earlier bedtimes and more sleep. I really prefer having the mornings be kid and dad time, while having them to bed earlier at night leaves time for adults.

That's exactly why we have early bed time.

And actually...
it seems that our 7 -7:30pm bedtime is the unconventional time...not the 9-10pm. I rarely meet anyone else who has early bed times for their kids.

Dh doesn't get alot of time with the kids when he gets home but since we had kids he makes a point to go in earlier so he can get off by 5. Dinner EVERY night at 5:30 then 6:30 we do bedtime stuff and by 7:30 (until recently ds2 has quit nursing and takes for ever) it bed time. Then from 7:30-10 or so we have time to be adults together. I cannot imagine having my kids stay up until we went to bed (I don't mind when they are newborns). That would be exhausting being with kids all day long and not having any time to watch adult TV, have adult conversation or, um...other adult stuff...


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## Collinsky (Jul 7, 2004)

Just for the record, there's a difference between just leaving kids' totally on their own, and simply responding to their individual sleep needs regardless of what time that happens to be. Not having a "bedtime" isn't the same thing as not parenting children when it's time for bed - at least not in our home. We do NOT have a set bedtime, it changes all the time here - but it is something that I am very involved in. Since letting go of the whole "regular bedtime" idea (which was imposed by mama) bedtime has become a time of intense connection, fun, and sweetness for us. It is one of my favorite times of day. Whatever time it happens to happen!







:

I guess what I would say is that each family should follow their bliss (as corny as that sounds!) and if that means an early bedtime, a late bedtime, or a totally unpredictable winging it bedtime... go for it with confidence and joy. There is no time that is the "right" one for making your children happy, healthy adults. There really isn't.


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## mamamelia (Apr 14, 2005)

Quote:

No one does talk about it! It seems to be a dirty little secret with most families...
DH gets home around 7pm, so if DD went to sleep : she'd never see daddy. But truthfully, how do you MAKE a kid sleep?
ditto. it's 6pm right now and i can't imagine the kids going to bed in an hour. it seems almost eery to have this much silence this early on into the night.









i tried to instill a bedtime routine after being fed up with waking up, sleeping next to and going to bed with the kids 24-7 with no "me" time in between. the new bedtime routine all pretty much went to sh*t a week later with gentle methods and we are not a CIO family... so we're back to "lets all go to sleep together" and just put a movie on for the kids at night so dh and i can sit in peace. kids are happy, mama and papa are happy - win, win.

Quote:

i think sleep has a lot to do with a child's temperament.
ditto again. i'm soooo tired of hearing IRL "my child sleeps at 8pm - yours should too" when we are talking about totally different kids here. for example, my 19mo would be a lot more willing to have an earlier bedtime than my 3.75yo - they have very different temperaments - the youngest is more calm and considerably "easy" and the eldest one, well, she hasn't "slept like baby" since birth.

talking from my own experience here - everyone we know IRL that has thier kiddos go to sleep between 8-10pm uses CIO. the ones that do use gentle methods either co-sleep all at the same time or thier kids go to bed on thier own but a lot later than most other kids. i'm not saying that's the only way that kids go to sleep earlier (CIO).. in fact i







down to the mamas that have thier kids to go bed earlier with gentle methods.. wish it could work for us too but it hasn't so far.


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## zoshamosha (Apr 15, 2006)

My DD has always hated sleep. She really won't nap and tries to stay awake until I go to bed, so lately we've all been going to sleep at around 10.

This has actually been pretty hard on me since DD is super-intense, but there's nothing I can do about it. An hour of alone time for me is crucial for my own mental health, so I'm trying to implement some "grown up time" at maybe around 9 or 9:30 at night. DD can stay awake if she wants to, but she has to stay in the bedroom (we co-sleep) and she has to, basically, leave me alone and be quiet








.

She can thumb through books or play with her dolls, etc...


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

I just really feel the need to say that I've never, EVER done CIO with either of my two dd's. I guess I'm just blessed with a good sleeper (the five year old anyway!)


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## tabasco (Dec 20, 2007)

I don't know . . . people always seem to think we're freaks because our 22-month-old DD is in bed by 7pm 98% of the time. For the most part, she's always been an early riser and an unpredictable napper, so the earlier bedtime helps her get the sleep she needs. But really, the early bedtime came from our following her cues--we've never done CIO. And we're also not draconian about it. If she's tired later, then she goes to bed later, and vice versa.

The funny thing is that for the longest time people didn't believe me when I said that she was genuinely tired by 6-7pm. They would give us crap when we would show up for an evening event without DD. (Because it's so fun for us to attend with a cranky toddler, and as though we love shelling out money to pay a babysitter to sit in our house while DD sleeps.) Then we had a couple of social events that meant we'd be out with DD past her usual bedtime. People got to see how DD's demeanor changed as she got tired. A few friends even said stuff like, 'Wow, she really IS tired,' as though they thought I had been making it up this whole time.









I will say, though, that I don't like that a few PPs have correlated early bedtimes with selfish, lazy parents who do CIO to get this result. I'm sure that some posters do know people IRL who are this way. But to make that assumption across the board is offensive to those of us who arrived at an early bedtime as a result of gently following our LO's cues. Yes, it's nice for me to have time to myself at the end of the day, but it would also be lovely to be able to sleep past 6am!


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## justthinkn (Apr 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tabasco* 
I will say, though, that I don't like that a few PPs have correlated early bedtimes with selfish, lazy parents who do CIO to get this result... Yes, it's nice for me to have time to myself at the end of the day, but it would also be lovely to be able to sleep past 6am!


















There are trade-offs!!


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riverscout* 
And that is your personal experience. However, I don't know anyone personally who does that type of thing, at least none of the people I talk to about parenting stuff with, not even the ones that could be stereotyped as "mainstream." And yes, they all have a regular bedtime for their kid. Maybe it just depends on where you live and who you hang out with.







I am sure the type of thing you are describing happens. I know about books like Babywise and Healthy Sleep Habits Happy Child, and I agree with *wallacesmum* that some of the sleep "expert" dogma advocates for set bedtimes and CIO if needed to get that result. However, I still don't see how anyone can make the argument that there is correlation between set/early bedtimes and CIO because of that or even because they know someone who does a set bedtime coupled with CIO. For every person someone could name that does that, I could name one that doesn't. I just really don't see the point in conflating the two issues.

its actually not my personal experience. its what i have heard from many mainstream parents, whom i do not hang out w/ for the most part.

i was simply stating why some of the posts earlier on seemed to believe that CIO was happening with rigid bedtimes. i dont think anyone here used CIO to get their kids to bed..i was NOT saying that. What i was saying is that depending on family and friends, many ppl who dont have a "set" bedtime are left to feel (by many) that they arent parenting and are the ones "too lazy" to put their kids to bed...to work on it, etc. etc.

i have friends that go from one spectrum to the other as far as nap time. a friend of mine is going to miss a viewing of BOB b/c its at 6:15 in the evening. her son goes to bed at 7:30 and her dh isnt good w/ night times. If my son were his age (1), i would have missed teh viewing also b/c i wouldnt have been able to leave him, but it wouldnt have been b/c of bedtime. I have other friends whose kids run around at all times of the night and there is never any attempt to get them to be quieter, relax, or anything...they do simply "fall over asleep"....

I never said there was a coorelation between CIO and bedtime....i think the 2 things can happen independent with each other..the problem is that most mainstreams uses the CIO method to achieve the earlier bedtime. Again, I do not believe thats what is happening here and i think both sides are a bit on the defensive in this thread.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Collinsky* 
Just for the record, there's a difference between just leaving kids' totally on their own, and simply responding to their individual sleep needs regardless of what time that happens to be. Not having a "bedtime" isn't the same thing as not parenting children when it's time for bed - at least not in our home. We do NOT have a set bedtime, it changes all the time here - but it is something that I am very involved in. Since letting go of the whole "regular bedtime" idea (which was imposed by mama) bedtime has become a time of intense connection, fun, and sweetness for us. It is one of my favorite times of day. Whatever time it happens to happen!







:

I guess what I would say is that each family should follow their bliss (as corny as that sounds!) and if that means an early bedtime, a late bedtime, or a totally unpredictable winging it bedtime... go for it with confidence and joy. There is no time that is the "right" one for making your children happy, healthy adults. There really isn't.

i completely agree. i think there are judgments on both sides here and i think every post should be prefaced with "this is what works for my family and especially my child...your child is probably different and that doesnt mean you are doing something wrong".

thats pretty much my take on it after an unsuccessful night of attempting to come up with a "bedtime routine" as suggested by Sleepless in America. Im hanging in there for 3 weeks b/c i was told thats how long it takes to create a "habit" but thus far, we are not doing well.







I may just have one of those kids that HATES schedules and will resist beyond when he normally goes to bed if i try to institute any type of bedtime...im not sure yet.


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## Artichokie (Jun 19, 2007)

My 6 mo old goes to bed at 10PM. She also goes out with us if we have evening plans. She has been to all sorts of events.

Right now (9:30PM), my Dh is upstairs with her. He plays quiet music and reads her stories and gets her jammies on her while I have me time between 9:30 and 10PM. Then we all brush our teeth and LO and I get in bed and nurse. DH buckles up the house and then joins us, and reads us a grown up book (out loud) while I finish nursing her. Lights out around 10:45.

I am a sahm/student so LO and I have the flexibility to sleep late. She usually wakes up for the morning around 7:30AM and then take an hour nap around 9:30AM.


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## srs (Nov 8, 2007)

15 month old goes to bed usually around 9pm. If she goes to bed before 8pm it's a nap, and then she'll wake up two hours later and it will take forever to get her back to sleep.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

I never grew up with a bedtime, and my kids sleep when they are tired. There are times when ds1 will go to sleep for the night at 5h30 (if he doesnt nap) But most of the time, its around 9/10. Generally we have a routine, but its flexible.
Anyway, just wanted to say that i didnt grow up with a bed time. I dont think i would have liked it. Im a good sleeper, so are my kids. Sometimes i think its partly genetic.


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## kdtmom2be (Aug 26, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *srs* 
15 month old goes to bed usually around 9pm. If she goes to bed before 8pm it's a nap, and then she'll wake up two hours later and it will take forever to get her back to sleep.









: That is EXACTLY how it is around here. We've managed to get her to bed at 8pm and have her think "nap" before 7pm though. Since she's been down to one nap a day DD tends to start to get cranky around 8pm and that when we start the bedtime routine. Shower, teeth, nurse, music, bed. If she isn't ready for bed at 8pm we don't force it, some days she's up until 10pm, but I don't put her down early if I can help it! Much too frustrating later.


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## Peppermint Poppies (Jan 7, 2007)

15mo DS goes to bed consistently at 7-7.30pm every night. We didn't enforce this .... he just found his own routine fairly early on by about 6mo, and apart from a few hiccups with teething and major developmental milestones, this is the bedtime he has always returned to.

He wakes with the sun, usually about 6.30am, and doesn't sleep much during the day, so by 7pm he is definitely ready for sleep.

Whilst we didn't enforce his bedtime, we do have a 'routine' that we follow .... dinner, bath, drink of milk, into sleeping bag, brush teeth, cuddle with me on couch, then stories with DH in the rocking chair, then down to sleep. When we lay him down, he rolls over, puts his thumb in his mouth, and drifts off to sleep by himself. No CIO involved.


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## patchynurse (Sep 15, 2006)

I am a night person. I work evenings. My BF works overnights. I get home at about 11 pm each night and my 4 month old son is bright eyed and bushy tailed. We regularly are up until 1-3 am. And we co-sleep until 9-10 the next day. We spent quality time together in those late hours snuggling and nursing!


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## urchin_grey (Sep 26, 2006)

We've always just put DS to bed when he's sleepy. I think its kinda silly to spend an hour (or more) trying to get a little kid to sleep when they aren't sleepy yet. Most likely, if you'd just wait until a bit later, it wouldn't take nearly as long.







:


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## Graceoc (Mar 26, 2002)

We are pretty flexible with bedtimes until our kids are around 3. That tends to be the time the daytime napping is weaning and we move them to going to bed at a 'set' bedtime rather then falling asleep in the late afternoon and staying up all night. I am not a good mom at night if I don't get some quite time/ me time/ couple time. Call me selfish, but that is the way it is.

So right now the 6 & 3.5 year old go to bed around 7:30-8 (sometimes the 3.5 year old is alseep by 6:30 if he is really tired...and belive me we know when he is tired!)

My 6 year old often is not tired at 7:30-8, but she is required to stay in her room at bedtime. She can have the lights on and read or play with toys - and most of the time she does this for an hour or more before climbing into bed and falling asleep on her own. A few times we have had to go turn the lights off and encourage her to get to sleep (tuck in and more snuggle) becuase it was getting close to 10pm and she is a BEAR in the mornings (and we have school) if she dosen't get enough sleep.

My 8 year old used to be on the same schedule, but now he stays up until around 8pm. He shares with the 3.5 year old so we like for him to be alsleep before the 8 year old goes to bed. He is also aloud to read quietly in bed until around 9ish and then lights out. He acutally requires the most sleep of all our kids so he tends to fall asleep right away.

The baby sleeps when she is tired. I do love the nights she goes to bed early (say 8ish) but usually it isn't until later since she has moved to taking an evening nap. No biggie since I can still relax a bit and watch grown up TV if I want even with her LOL!

Bedtimes for us are a must, but we are somewhat flexible depending on the circumstance and each kids sleep needs. IN the summer time we are way more flexible and are often up late : )


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## sapphos (Nov 9, 2006)

We so totally have never done an enforced bedtime with dd! And we have always coslept. She's now 18 months old and sometimes she goes to sleep at 10:30 and sometimes she goes to sleep at 12. She will wake up anytime between 7:30 and 9.
She used to go to sleep a bit earler when she was younger but not much.

I love the fact that she sleeps late because it's so hot here already and the only time to go out is after 7 or so so we enjoy the time from 7 until 9 pm or so.

and because dh works the 2nd shift he gets to see dd more since her nap time is around 2:30 (or sometimes as late as 4).

In contrast I have a friend who puts her son to sleep at 7 every night and then doesn't get any sleep because he wakes her up at 5 or so. He's on a fairly regular nap schedule but she spent th efirst year + having to rock him the total time he took his naps. We on contrast got dd to sleep anywhere, in the car seat , in the baby carrier, etc etc she's just a sleep anywhere kid.


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## sapphos (Nov 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RomanGoddess* 
Yes but in Spain, everyone takes a two-hour long siesta every afternoon. Especially during the summer, they sleep during the hot afternoons precisely so that they can stay up late during the cooler evenings, but they seem to keep up the same habit year-round.

When we lived in Argentina, no one really went to dinner before 9 or 10 and the kids went along with them. It wasn't unusual to see kids out at 11 at dinner. And they got to run around the restaurants with any problems, even in nice ones.


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## OGirlieMama (Aug 6, 2006)

I've evolved bedtime as my kids have grown. When they were tiny, we just looked for cues and they slept when they slept. Around 8-10 months, it became obvious that 7:30 was their limit - they just became cranky as anything after that, so that was bedtime. Now, at 2.5, anywhere between 8 and 9:30 seems to be bedtime, depending on whether they took a nap, what we did today, and how early they got up in the morning. Summer fun has definitely taken a toll on the regularity of their bedtime/wake time and it's made things more confusing. With 2 at the same age, sharing a room and a bed, it really does require some effort to get them calmed down for bed. They would stay up running around until 10 or 11pm if I didn't intervene ("hey, it's time to get in bed and read books!") and eventually someone has a giant meltdown, the whole thing gets ugly, and someone ends up crying hysterically in my arms. Not fun.

My husband grew up without a bedtime and is a serious night owl. It's very hard for him to get to bed anytime before midnight, and usually much later. Over the years, it's made him late for work, miss meetings, and generally miserable in the mornings. I'm not saying this would happen to every kid without any parental guidance regarding bedtime, but for him it's made it tough. If he didn't have to go to work or attend any other morning events, maybe it would be no big deal, but not everyone can manage to build that kind of life.


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## CheriK (Mar 18, 2003)

We've been cosleeping since day one (kids are currently 6 1/2) and have gradually fallen into "bedtime" that works for our family. For us, that means around 10pm. It's been a bit later recently because the air quality here has been SO SO bad that our ourdoor play time has been non-existent, so the kids just aren't as tired. We did have earlier bedtimes for a while as the kids were giving up naps and got tired earlier, but that was also based on their tiredness cues, not on some requirement that kids go to bed early. That was actually really hard for our family, since it seriously cut into the time DH had with his kids and it prevented us from doing anything as a family in the evenings.

I completely agree that it's critical to get enough sleep (for children AND adults). Enough sleep improves our attitudes and behavior, keeps us healthier, and lets us enjoy life more. However, the "rules" for children's sleep are just like most of the hard-and-fast parenting rules we read. . . they'll work for some kids and not for others. My son has always needed about the amount of sleep those "rules" claim he needs; his twin sister has always needed about 25% less. While I need about 10% more than the "rules" for adults say - needless to say, my DD wears me out! And I'm the oddball out in my house for sleep pattern as well - I'm an "early to bed, early to rise" person, while DH and both kids are night owls. Right now (I'm pregnant w/ #3), you'll often find me in bed alone at 8:30 and DH and the kids join me sometime around 10ish.

A late bedtime works really well for our family, since it give us most of our family time. Since DH works during the week and I work on Saturdays, that leaves only one day a week for us to spend together. Without a late bedtime, we'd have barely any time together. And since I prefer to get up early, I get my "alone" time in the morning. The only negative is that DH and I don't have couple time every day (perhaps this is where the early bedtime "rule" came from, since adult time in our society seems to given priority over kid/family time). But we can make time for each other, and we're adults so our needs are much less immediate than the kids'. And since I'm usually beat in the evenings, any "couple" time we had wouldn't be very rewarding with a cranky Mommy!

I think a lot of families also move to an earlier bedtime because once kids start school, they have to get up early. We're homeschooling, so there's no need to force the kids to go to sleep before their bodies say it's time. And I almost never have to drag a sleepy child out of bed. I think a more socially acceptable routine would be really hard on my kids - they just aren't energetic and motivated in the morning. Most of our best learning occurs in the late afternoon or during the evening. My husband, who's own natural rhythm is also to sleep late in the morning, is able to adjust his sleep cycle to get up for work in the morning. Obviously, he'd prefer to sleep in and stay up 'till midnight, but it's easier for an adult to realize cause/effect and modify as needed!

BTW, almost all the families I know IRL where the kids are in bed early use less-gentle sleep solutions. Most of us who are die-hard family bedders all go to bed as a family. Not all, there are certainly some kids who simply need an earlier bedtime, but usually there's also a parent who's more than ready to go to bed with them


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