# CIO: Sure Lookin' Good Right Now!



## seoul_mama (Jul 10, 2007)

UPDATE..... SEE POST #51

OK, I'm a co-sleeping mama and bfing 15 month old ds. I see there are tons of posts about bf/sleep issues with babes that are also around the age that mine is (in addition to all the other challenges like pinching, crying whining, groping, etc., I can relate!)

Although philosophically and emotionally I don't subscribe to CIO and will not practice it, I still can't help but to feel envious of other families that have done it. Actually, with the exception of my close friend, everyone else I know including family and random aquaintances have done cio. That said, my fellow non-cio friend and I are the only ones who have ongoing sleep/nap issues. The cio folks do not!!!! AND when I talk to cio folks, their babies who are the same age as mine SLEEP THROUGH THE NIGHT and have been doing so since early on. Also, these cio babies/kids that I meet seem very well attached to their parents and are well-adjusted, loving good kids.

I'm not trying to promote cio here, but I'm starting to wonder what is so terrible about it. Is it really that bad to cio???

I'm well read on cio and co-sleeping, so no need to send me articles. I Just want responses that come from the heart...


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## smeisnotapirate (Aug 24, 2007)

Someone earlier today put CIO in a new perspective for me. I'm sorry I don't remember exactly who it is.

She said that if we were to do the same thing to an elderly person, it would be neglect and abuse. Remember that your child needs you to fulfill his/her needs, and as hard as it is, it will pay off! You are the most important person in her/his life, and to show your DC that you're not going to come when (s)he needs you will show up later.

Also, from experience with friends, CIO parents have the EXACT same problems you do. They just ignore them, and the children learn not to cry loudly because it gets them nowhere. Why waste the effort? It isn't that they're not having these problems or that their kids are sleeping through the night. It's that they're choosing to not acknowledge their childrens' cries for help during the night, or their children have learned that it's not worth it.

I think learning that even the people closest to you won't give you what you need at 4 or 5 months is really sad, isn't it?

Also, remember. Children at this age are just beginning to explore. Your child is at an age where he will be doing more that he's never done before and he needs to know that even when he's changing, mommy is always going to be there.

You're right by not CIO-ing. Stick to it!


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## wallacesmum (Jun 2, 2006)

It's just wrong to ignore someone in need. When, to that someone, we are the most important person in the world, it's extra wrong. There is no way that something damaging isn't taking place, neurologically, to an infant who learns that his mother will not respond to his cries. I don't know what it is, but I believe it in my heart. We are afraid of strangers in need in American culture, and I think so much of that stems from the mentality that someone else's need isn't our problem, and they should learn to comfort themselves.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

It's really that terrible.

-Angela


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## widemouthedfrog (Mar 9, 2006)

I tried doing it once with my daughter when I was there. When she cried so hard she started to vomit, I decided that nothing was worth that.

I agree with the previous posters. You don't want to live through sleep deprivation, but you also don't want to live through CIO! At least not with my kid.


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## syn_ack89 (Oct 1, 2007)

I also want to say that many people who SAY cio worked for them are, shall we say, stretching the truth?

People look at a baby's sleep as a competition - "mine slept thru the night at 3 mos" "oh well, mine slept through the night at 3 weeks".

Since people want their baby to be the best, they play a game of one-upmanship that leads to unrealistic expectations.

Anyway, keep with the non-CIOing...that's an investment in your child that will pay off in the future.


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

CIO is cruel. It is a form of mental abuse IMO. It is a blow to your child's self-esteem and self-worth. Imagine how scary it must be for a child. I always try to put myself in my child's shoes and act accordingly. Sleep deprivation does suck, especially when you have been dealing with it for over a year but it does get better. My son was sleeping peacefully through the night by age 2 and we never did CIO. He is still an awesome sleeper now at age 4.


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## seoul_mama (Jul 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *smeisnotapirate* 
Someone earlier today put CIO in a new perspective for me. I'm sorry I don't remember exactly who it is.

She said that if we were to do the same thing to an elderly person, it would be neglect and abuse.

That's bone-chilling... really drives the point.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *smeisnotapirate* 
Also, remember. Children at this age are just beginning to explore. Your child is at an age where he will be doing more that he's never done before and he needs to know that even when he's changing, mommy is always going to be there.


So it does get better, right? Any chance you know around when? I know, each babe is different, but a rough estimate is good...


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## seoul_mama (Jul 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wallacesmum* 
It's just wrong to ignore someone in need. When, to that someone, we are the most important person in the world, it's extra wrong. There is no way that something damaging isn't taking place, neurologically, to an infant who learns that his mother will not respond to his cries.

I agree!


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## seoul_mama (Jul 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
It's really that terrible.

-Angela

short and sweet, thanks!


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## seoul_mama (Jul 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *widemouthedfrog* 
I tried doing it once with my daughter when I was there. When she cried so hard she started to vomit, I decided that nothing was worth that.

wow, that sounds awful!


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## seoul_mama (Jul 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *syn_ack89* 
I also want to say that many people who SAY cio worked for them are, shall we say, stretching the truth?

People look at a baby's sleep as a competition - "mine slept thru the night at 3 mos" "oh well, mine slept through the night at 3 weeks".

Since people want their baby to be the best, they play a game of one-upmanship that leads to unrealistic expectations.

Anyway, keep with the non-CIOing...that's an investment in your child that will pay off in the future.

I hate sleep competition! and I hate when people ask me how ds sleeps!


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## seoul_mama (Jul 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jilian* 
My son was sleeping peacefully through the night by age 2 and we never did CIO. He is still an awesome sleeper now at age 4.

This is exactly what I needed to hear!!!!!!


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## seoul_mama (Jul 10, 2007)

Thanks for all of your replies! I need to figure out the multiquote function









your support is wonderful!!!


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## Angee (May 4, 2007)

Out of desperation I gave in to many advisers to get sleep training/CIO, although I didnt leave his side it still broke my heart to see him upset and cry and I will never ever try it again. Id rather have a happy loving baby. Some of my friends say "Oh poor you, still not getting any sleep" and I just tell them Im enjoying it while it lasts!


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## smeisnotapirate (Aug 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seoul_mama* 
That's bone-chilling... really drives the point.

I thought so, too.

I'm not a mommy yet (soon, soon, soon!), but I can honestly say, let your son determine the schedule. I look at it like weaning: I'm sure he'll be fine by college!









My only advice is to try to look at your sleepless nights as some extra time to spend with your DS. The childhood years go so quickly that even though you need the sleep and it's frustrating, one of the coolest things in the world is enjoying what little time you have with your baby when he's still a baby. Maybe a change of perspective will help.

Good luck, and tonight when you have trouble, make sure to look your baby in the eye and tell him you love him and you're happy he's not growing up too fast.


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## beka1977 (Aug 1, 2004)

Hang in there. On the really bad nights my DH and I used to joke that CIO meant that WE would go in the other room and cry it out.

It does get better.


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## SuenCA (Oct 20, 2007)

My older son, who is now 8, woke up every 2 hours for many many many months....! I remember nights being in tears and cringing when I heard his first whimpers as he woke up yet again! All of my dear friends did CIO and thought I was insane as I stumbled through my days. But some things I've learned, having survived those days.

*Families who do CIO often have to do it MANY times. For my friends, they probably averaged letting their kids CIO 3-4 times throughout the course of their childrens' infancies/toddlerhoods--every time the family traveled, or their child hit a new milestone, or the child got new teeth, or new babies joined the families, etc...they had to do it all over again. So, it's really not a long term solution...and just seems like a lot of pain for such a temporary "reward".

*A huge plus of the family bed or nursing/rocking/whatever to sleep is that bedtime in our house, even with 2 boys who are well beyond nursing to sleep now!, has never, ever, ever been a battle. It's a restful peaceful wonderful time of day. That, as they say, truly is priceless.

*If, however, the bedtime, nighttime routine isn't working for you right now....don't hesitate to try to change it. We tried it all...waiting 5-7 min to see if my baby would fuss himself back to sleep (never a full on cry, of course), having Dad try to pat his back or rock him back to sleep before I'd nurse, starting out in a crib and then bringing him to bed, making bedtime earlier, etc...etc... I would wait a few days to see if the new routine was helping...if it was, great...if not, I'd go back to the old standbys. Trust yourself and your instincts and watch your babe for clues. Both my sons were so different in the sleep department that I learned to just trust myself and trust them. Each phase has its challenges but each phase does pass.

*These rough nights really do pass way faster than you can ever imagine. I look at my oldest with his gangly body, all elbows and knees and bruises and scrapes and stinky feet from sports, and wonder where that small baby went....the one who snuggled with me all night. Both of my boys go to sleep on their own after stories and spend most of the night in their own beds---although my husband and I love it when they crawl into our bed with us. The sleepless nights from their infancies are a distant, fuzzy memory. So, as painful as the sleepless nights are, take snapshots in your mind of how your child looks sleeping next to you or in your arms. There truly is nothing more precious than a small child asleep with you. Try to remember how it feels to have their small warm bodies nestled up to yours. Hold your babies' hands and nuzzle their soft head because someday soon, you, too, will have forgotten how tired you are today.

Best of luck!
Sue


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## aprilv (Aug 31, 2007)

i understand your point! i too feel envious when i hear about all these 'sleeping through the night babies' BUT i think many times people exagerate. i also read (i think in one of sears's books) about a family who were so thrilled that their cio baby slept through the night. when their ap friends spent the night, they realized the baby was crying but the parents just didn't hear it anymore because they no longer had that sensitivity to their child. the bottom line is who knows what really goes on in anyone else's home at night?

during the first year, your baby is forming his understanding of the world around him. since you are not letting him cry it out, he is learning that he matters, that we should help those who are in pain and that the world is just generally a place where things will be ok and others care. those lessons will serve him well as he gets older, maybe the differences in perspective between your children and your cio friends' children will become apparent over time (how they react to middle school cliques, for example).

i also think all babies are different. yours needs a little (or a lot)more help to get to sleep right now(as does mine, btw). good for you for meeting that need. needs that are not met do not disappear, they just reappear later-- better a sleepless baby than an angry teen.

i agree with the poster who said to put yourself in his shoes. you really are doing a great thing for your baby. in a blink he will be all grown up and you'll be glad for the time you spent rocking or nursing or laying together or whatever instead of wishing you had been holding him when he was crying all alone.


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## MommytoTwo (Jun 20, 2004)

I did CIO w/ DS1 .... only once and I refused to do it w/ DD or DS2....My baby was SAD the next day, he really was. It broke my heart. He is now a great sleeper, as is DD. Every once in a while I think the same as you pondered in your OP...DS2 is a crappy sleeper...but I could just not do that to him ... I dont think letting them fuss for 5 min is all that bad - and by fuss I dont mean wailing. But full on CIO - never again.


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## BubbleMa (Sep 24, 2007)

The benefits really pay off in the long run. Do you want your child/teen to trust you? Do you want them to be able to come to you with problems? Do you want them to be able to talk to you about anything and everything...


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## MilkTrance (Jul 21, 2007)

Your friends are lucky. Most of the people I know who CIO'd still have night time issues. They just choose to ignore them instead of responding to the cries.


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## hipmummy (May 25, 2007)

I am in the same boat. I would never let ds CIO . Dh actually wanted to because his friend s said ds was old enough and it was not that bad. I told dh I would divorce him before ds cries it out. He has never mentioned it again. I never let ds cry. The two times he has cried because I could not get to him (stuck in traffic on a highway) he vommitted. It killed me. So as rough as it gets up every two hours still. No I will never subscribe to torturing my ds.


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## Erin+babyAndrew (Jan 2, 2004)

we've never done CIO..never will. My 4 yo started sleeping through the night when he nightweaned around 19 months. My 20 mo son is now starting to sleep through the night and he is weaned completely. I really think nursing has a lot to do with nightwakings...


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## seoul_mama (Jul 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Erin+babyAndrew* 
we've never done CIO..never will. My 4 yo started sleeping through the night when he nightweaned around 19 months. My 20 mo son is now starting to sleep through the night and he is weaned completely. I really think nursing has a lot to do with nightwakings...

wow, this is great to hear. would you mind sharing whether they self-weaned or if you initiated it. AND if you initiated, how did you do it???


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## sunnygir1 (Oct 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hipmummy* 
I am in the same boat. I would never let ds CIO . Dh actually wanted to because his friend s said ds was old enough and it was not that bad. I told dh I would divorce him before ds cries it out. He has never mentioned it again. I never let ds cry. The two times he has cried because I could not get to him (stuck in traffic on a highway) he vommitted. It killed me. So as rough as it gets up every two hours still. No I will never subscribe to torturing my ds.

Okay, me too. But, does your dh help? Dp isn't much help with getting dd to sleep. He usually is smart enough not to tell me to let her cio, but it's not like he's the one rocking her to sleep. There are different levels of support.


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## babygrace (Aug 23, 2006)

it's hard enough to see other people crying, so i cannot fathom how it's possible to steel one's heart to a baby/child's crying! can't believe there's no harm resulting from a plea for comfort being ignored. it's possible that the child will eventually get used to the scenario, but, really, at what cost?

that being said, when you read here about the extremely difficult sleep situations (total lack of sleep for extended periods of time) some families are experiencing, you wonder how best to cope with it. but, we are all they have, and their happiness is all that matters to us.


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## innle (Mar 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprilv* 
i also read (i think in one of sears's books) about a family who were so thrilled that their cio baby slept through the night. when their ap friends spent the night, they realized the baby was crying but the parents just didn't hear it anymore because they no longer had that sensitivity to their child.

That just breaks my heart.







:

Quote:

Imagine how scary it must be for a child.








:

*hugs* It does get better. I remember my aunt and uncle being worn out around this same sort of time for both their children, but they never let their kids CIO, and now their kids sleep really well. There were some very bad times - I remember staying there one night; their older child had a meltdown for two hours (waking up the younger child in the process), and then a few hours later (at 2am!), after we had all gone to bed (again) their younger child woke up ready to party







. However, it took time and patience (and the occasional parental moment of doubt) but they made it.


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## nylecoj (Apr 24, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprilv* 
i understand your point! i too feel envious when i hear about all these 'sleeping through the night babies' BUT i think many times people exagerate. i also read (i think in one of sears's books) about a family who were so thrilled that their cio baby slept through the night. when their ap friends spent the night, they realized the baby was crying but the parents just didn't hear it anymore because they no longer had that sensitivity to their child.

Yeah, that. CIO is so backassward in terms of logic I find it surprising that anyone would buy into it. You wouldn't leave anyone else alone to cry for any reason unless they specifically asked, so why the heck would you leave an someone who can't express his feelings to scream wondering where the hell you went and why he is not important enough for you to answer his call?

I think sometimes people forget that babies are people too.


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## chemer (Jun 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SuenCA* 
The sleepless nights from their infancies are a distant, fuzzy memory. So, as painful as the sleepless nights are, take snapshots in your mind of how your child looks sleeping next to you or in your arms. There truly is nothing more precious than a small child asleep with you. Try to remember how it feels to have their small warm bodies nestled up to yours. Hold your babies' hands and nuzzle their soft head because someday soon, you, too, will have forgotten how tired you are today.

That's so sweet. I'm all teared up now.


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## yogagal (Mar 29, 2007)

I understand the feeling! Sometimes I feel the same way, but I remember a CIO friend and her family coming to stay with us. Her little boy (15 mos) screamed himself to sleep. Can you imagine, being in a new place by yourself in a walled pen (also known as a pack n play), and your mom has left you there to scream yourself to sleep?! Yes, he slept all night and soundly, but at what cost?? And indeed, if CIO was a one-shot deal and that was it, that would be one thing, but to have to do it over and over and over again and repeatedly tell your child--you can scream all you want, but I won't come, that's just sad.


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## nylecoj (Apr 24, 2007)

Tonight is another great example of why not to CIO. Dd took a poo shortly after she was put down tonight and had I left her alone to CIO she would have had to sleep in a poopy diaper.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

I agree that people for whom this "method" has "worked" a) have selective memories - I think they blank out how bad it is and b) present their stories verrry misleadingly sometimes (i.e. they LIE).

One anecdote will perhaps suffice. I love this one because it really shows that you canNOT take people at their word when it comes to something that (ridiculously) is as highly-charged as infant sleep.

My cousin has a 5-yo ds. She had always, always bragged about what a fantastic sleeper he was. Slept 6 hours a night straight away (like, when she brought him home from the hospital!). ETc etc etc. I asked her, after I had my dd (her ds was about 3 at the time), did she ever sleep train him, or did he go through any periods where he didn't sleep well? My experience with dd was just so completely different from what she had reported that I was sure she must be leaving something out. She VEHEMENTLY denied it and insisted that he NEVER, and I repeat NEVER, had any issues sleeping through the night, and that she NEVER sleep trained him.

So - fast forward almost 2 years and she is finally far enough away from the baby days to be honest, I guess. I was complaining about dd's sleep issues and said "wow, I guess your ds is just that rare super sleeper." She said, "oh well, sometimes he didn't want to go to sleep, so I'd just put him in his crib and say night-night and put in my earplugs. Sometimes he'd scream 45 minutes or so, but he always ended up going to sleep."

!!?!?! Far cry from what she had said before.

And now I know a ton of people with small kids and most of them have gone through short or long periods of major sleep disturbances, with very rare exceptions. Little kids just do not sleep the way adults do and there are bound to be some hard times in most cases, IMO. Being the perfect AP parent certainly will not insulate you from having kids that wake all the time, but I do not think being a "CIO parent" does either.

Most people I know are not doing CIO, but a few moms I've met have talked about doing it. Every. Single. One who have talked about it with any candor have admitted that you have to do it over and over again.







Which makes sense. It's not logical that after only a few nights, all nighttime needs are so completely extinguished that the child will never have to cry again.

I went through several really, really rough patches with sleep issues. I know how the OP is feeling, for sure. But it feels SO GOOD to get through it, to be on the other side (dd at 2.5 yo is not a perfect sleeper but wayyy better than before) and know that I never let my child scream by herself in her crib - that DH and I have always been there for her and WILL always be there for her at night, as long as she needs us. It's a GREAT feeling.

Hang in there.


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## Nora'sMama (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnygir1* 
Okay, me too. But, does your dh help? Dp isn't much help with getting dd to sleep. He usually is smart enough not to tell me to let her cio, but it's not like he's the one rocking her to sleep. There are different levels of support.

IMO if the mama is so sleep deprived she is super frustrated and suffering, the dad needs to help carry some of the nighttime load, even if it's not baby's first preference. Dr. Sears in the Baby Book talks about the need for dad to be able to soothe a baby to sleep. There are a lot of good reasons to develop this routine but one is to GIVE MAMA A BREAK. I feel like I couldn't have done the nighttime parenting alone. I did do the majority of it when she was a small baby, but at some point I needed help.

I notice your dd is 8 months old. For us, it was a hard time for sleep. We co-slept and up to a certain point it worked fabulously - dd woke frequently but just nursed and went back to sleep after barely stirring. I felt pretty rested. But as she grew more aware of her surroundings she started to wake and NOT go back to sleep. Sometimes for hours. We had the room dark, white noise, did NOT stimulate her in any way except for me to nurse her, and yet she was WIDE awake. It sucked bad. I think this was when DH started taking her after I nursed her...he'd take her into another room and rock or bounce her and try to coax her back to sleep while I SLEPT.

We changed up the routine many, many times after that but DH's participation was crucial for my sanity. DH was the one WOH (mostly) and for some people that seems to mean the DH gets a free pass at night b/c he "needs his sleep". However I think that as the caretaker of a baby, I needed to be alert during the day, and capable of a modicum of rational thought, as much as he did. I also needed to be able to drive the car safely, and at certain points in dd's infancy, I was close to not being safe behind the wheel. So IMO it was only logical (and humane) for DH to take some of the nighttime load off of me.

I hear that there *are* babies who do not require as much nighttime parenting as my dd did. If you have one, THANK your lucky stars! I do not think it is anything parents do or don't do...by and large, kids are "good sleepers" or "poor sleepers" by temperament. If you have a "poor sleeper" you should not blame yourself in any way.


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## AileenM (Dec 16, 2006)

I have thought about it, as well...but I just can't bring myself to do it.








I would be so upset with myself for a very long time, I think.


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## mouso (Feb 8, 2007)

OP, I feel like you sometimes too. All the CIO moms I know are like "They sleep all night, they wake up so happy, they now nap great. I should have done it ages ago!"
It's very frustrating to hear when I have a child who maybe naps 40 minutes, sleeps for 45 minutes and then wakes at night constantly (although she does better when cosleeping in the middle of the night) so we have to hold her while hanging out, tries to have midnight parties with us







, and the list goes on.
I just know it's not what I want for her. My family thinks I'm nuts but I come here and read posts and know I am doing what my heart says is right. It is tough sometimes but then I think of the alternative. I would rather be able to tell her and her to know (and I think she will know somewhere inside anyway) that I never let her cry alone in her crib when she needed me.
I had a friend say to me one day "Our mothers let us cry- that's why we're all so f***ed up!" It really stuck with me (and she's not a mom).

Anyway, I understand. Even though you aren't doing it it is hard to hear about babies who are sleeping well and happy with CIO. (Even if they are really not).

And lastly, a story:
My sis does CIO and with her first he woke up every night for 2 years (still does!) and screamed at 3am. She would just ignore him. That's just what "he did."








So now that he's big enough to get out of bed and come down the hall he gets into bed with them- so they bought a king size. I said to her, "You do all that to get them out of the bed and you end up with a family bed anyway!" She said "Yup! We all snuggle."
So there's CIO that had been said to "work" for a couple of years. And their version of working was him screaming at 3am every night. And now they cosleep!









Hang in there!

And thanks to all the other mamas. I needed these encouraging posts too!


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *syn_ack89* 
I also want to say that many people who SAY cio worked for them are, shall we say, stretching the truth?

People look at a baby's sleep as a competition - "mine slept thru the night at 3 mos" "oh well, mine slept through the night at 3 weeks".

Since people want their baby to be the best, they play a game of one-upmanship that leads to unrealistic expectations.

Anyway, keep with the non-CIOing...that's an investment in your child that will pay off in the future.

I think they might experience babys sleeping through the night more often because the baby learns that no one is going to come and gives up eventually. (Which is the goal of CIO)

Its sad though.









I have struggled with it too.


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## JustSo (Apr 5, 2007)

CIO is such a bad idea. Don't do it! You'll feel terrible about it and so will your baby. I think people who advocate CIO talk about it in such glowing, "it works" terms (or perhaps even lie) because they need to _rationalize_ having done it. Somewhere in them they probably still feel badly about it, but by speaking highly of it, they justify their actions.

Similar to what a pp mentioned...imagine leaving your 16 yo daughter in her room alone, crying her eyes out, with nary a comforting word or hug from you. Not likely, right? A 16 yo can verbalize hurt feelings or physical needs; a baby cannot, so they cry. They NEED us to comfort them!

OP - click on the *quotations and +* icon when you see a post you want to quote and then click "quote" when you are ready to compose your reply. hth!


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## Rosey (Oct 18, 2007)

My question is this, What EXACTLY do people mean when they say their child "sleeps thru the night"? My DS is 14 mo's old, he goes to be between 6:30 and 7:30 depending on his mood, (its been 6:30 the last 4 days or so) basically when he is OBVIOUSLY tired we start bedtime rituals, a bath, lotion and a bit of a massage (lotion is a MUST in denver EVERYDAY it seems as it is so dry) the lullabye tape goes on the big lights go off, we get in the rocking chair and I nurse him for a few songs and then when he is looking ready to crash I tell him I am going to put him in his bed I hug and kiss him tuck him in, turn on his heartbeat bear and he willingly goes to sleep (trust me it wasnt always this nice and calm but hey he helped set up this routine and it works now! YAY!







. He then sleeps for between 9 and 11 hours at which point he wants to nurse, if its the earlier (around 3:30 am) I try to nurse him and lay him back down in his crib, and hi will usually sleep another 2 hours and then he wants to have cuddle time so I get him and we cuddle and he nurses til 6ish on the daybed. if he sleeps all the way thru til 5ish I just start the cuddle time. WOW written out like that I guess Im not doing too bad in the sleep department, so WHY do I still feel so tired???














: Oh and theres no CIO in this house, I couldnt bare it! I just sleep in the other room with the door open and when he REALLY wakes up I go in, sometimes he does make some noise and I go in there just to find him totally crashed out still, and he never gets into upset, when he wakes up he just stands up and yells a bit for my attention, its not even crying more of a statement.

Rosey


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## rachellanigh (Aug 26, 2006)

Thanks for asking this question. We co-sleep but its a nice reminder to know why we do it!


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## wagamama (Jul 3, 2006)

I went through the hardest time during the first year and a half of DS's life. He woke up upteen times a night to nurse, I never got more than 1-2 hours sleep at a stretch, and I was out-of-my-mind with tiredness. I was so desperate that I actually resorted to CIO twice -- or rather, I tried to let DS CIO, but he wouldn't go for it. He just kept crying and crying until I gave up -- clever little guy!

Now he is 28 months old. He started sleeping through the night -- from 9pm to 7am -- about 2 months ago (it has been a gradual process of waking up less and less). I am so glad that I stuck it out, so glad that we continued to cosleep. I feel that now, snuggling next to my DS, I am reaping the benefits of that very difficult first 1.5 years.

On a practical note, I did nightwean DS at 12 months, which I know some people at MDC don't approve of. Anyway, it didn't clear up the nightwaking completely, but did help a lot. I would say we went from 10-12 wakings a night to 4-6.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yogagal* 
I understand the feeling! Sometimes I feel the same way, but I remember a CIO friend and her family coming to stay with us. Her little boy (15 mos) screamed himself to sleep. Can you imagine, being in a new place by yourself in a walled pen (also known as a pack n play), and your mom has left you there to scream yourself to sleep?! Yes, he slept all night and soundly, but at what cost?? And indeed, if CIO was a one-shot deal and that was it, that would be one thing, but to have to do it over and over and over again and repeatedly tell your child--you can scream all you want, but I won't come, that's just sad.

Yes, yes, yes! My CIO friend came and stayed, too, and her dd, who was probably around 18 months, cried for about 10-15 minutes in her pack-n-play, because my friend had no other way to get her to sleep. She apologized profusely because the poor thing was pretty loud, but she said that she had to do it that way, that was the only way she'd fall asleep since she'd been doing it since she was six weeks old.

I think that's the other thing people always neglect to tell you about CIO. If you're not in a place where you can lock your baby in a crib or playpen and walk away, you have no way to get them to sleep! I've babysat for kids who had been Ferberized before, and it's impossible to get them to sleep. I had one that I would rock and feed and rock and feed, and he'd be totally asleep until I tried to lay him down. He'd immediately wake up and scream in terror because he knew he was going to be abandoned. I love that my babe trusts that I will immediately return if he cries, and he will therefore happily roll over in his crib, pull his blanket up to his face, close his eyes, and go to sleep. Sure, I have to get him and bring him to bed after a couple of hours, but even then he doesn't wake up upset or panicky, just ready for some company/nursing.

And as long as I'm on this rant, the other thing CIOers neglect to bring up is the issue of kids climbing out of their cribs. Once children learn to do this, you have to lock them in their rooms. THAT should be considered abuse, IMNSHO, but I know that my pediatrician has recommended it.







:


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## aileen (Jan 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SuenCA* 
I look at my oldest with his gangly body, all elbows and knees and bruises and scrapes and stinky feet from sports, and wonder where that small baby went....the one who snuggled with me all night.

now _i'm_ gonna cry it out! thank you, mama. i'm off to snuggle small baby, and weep myself to sleep. sniff.


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## onemommy (Oct 20, 2007)

hang in there and keep reading dr. sears!

personally, ANY time i hear my dd cry, even over the phone in the background like if she's with my husband and i'm talking to him, my milk lets down and my nipples tingle! and she's almost 2.

and i say SO WHAT to people who think she should "sleep through the night" (whatever that means ) at her age and not nurse, because sometimes i want a drink of water or juice during the night myself, and if it's ok for me, then why not also for her??


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## momoftworedheads (Mar 6, 2003)

This has always been my argument for CIO-

How is it ok to let a small child sleep on their own and cry and be alone for hours (at night) but it would be criminal to let your child be alone during the day(likewhen you work for example). I think CIO was created by someone who did not want to be with their child, be intuitive.

I think it is so important for children to trust their parents completely. Ifyou allow a child to CIO,how will they trust you in the teen years? How will they fell comfortable to tell you their truths?

I have three sons, one who had severe Reflux, one who never slept until he was over 2yrs old and anotherson who has never slept throught the night and he'll be 3. But, all of them have co-slept and continue to co-sleep.
Our older 2 boys, who are now 7 and 5, co-sleep in one bed in their room, and come back to the 'big bed' as needed.

Our youngest son continues to co-sleep, he no longer nurses but he loves sleeping with us and we will continue to do this as long as he wants.

I think that co-sleeping was the best thing we ever did for our family. It allows everyone to sleep and get the rest they need. And it is nice to wake up and see a sleeping toddler next to you, peaceful, heavenly even. They do not stay that little for long!

I still watch my 7 year old and my 5 yr old sleep. It is amazing!

Take care and enjoy your babe!


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## babyluvr (Mar 21, 2004)

what a great reminder for all of us. thanks!

a side note...if you are looking to nightwean and you said your babe is 15 months, right (i know it's controversial around here














check out drjaygordon.com something about 'changing the sleep pattern in teh family bed' nightweaning helped me keep nursing both my older kids a lot longer and really reduced the nightwaking. it was a good choice for us, isn't for everyone. it's also something you can give a go and see what happens. our dd took to it right away at 14 months and went from up many times a night to nurse to sleeping about 10 hrs stright (in our bed, we co-sleep) in just 2 nights. ds was a different (more normal) story. just a thougth....


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## melissakc (Nov 13, 2006)

I second Dr. Jay Gordon's method. It is so gentle and intuitive. If it's not working or your gut tells you to stop, then stop. It worked great for us, around 15 or 16 months.

Hang in there, OP! It will get better. I thought DD would never sleep straight through, but now she does, from 8 or 9pm until 6 or 7am. It's great! It will happen to you too--just follow your child's signals.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SuenCA* 
*Families who do CIO often have to do it MANY times. For my friends, they probably averaged letting their kids CIO 3-4 times throughout the course of their childrens' infancies/toddlerhoods--every time the family traveled, or their child hit a new milestone, or the child got new teeth, or new babies joined the families, etc...they had to do it all over again. So, it's really not a long term solution...and just seems like a lot of pain for such a temporary "reward".

Yup. My sister talks about how great it was that she just "shut the door and let him cry" b/c they "babied" their first too much, but whenever she travels, he's sick, etc., he wakes all the time.

Quote:

*A huge plus of the family bed or nursing/rocking/whatever to sleep is that bedtime in our house, even with 2 boys who are well beyond nursing to sleep now!, has never, ever, ever been a battle. It's a restful peaceful wonderful time of day. That, as they say, truly is priceless.
I was chatting with my neighbor yesterday. She has a dd a little older than mine (so 18 mos). She was saying how much her dd hates sleep, always wakes up miserable, goes to bed miserable, etc. I know she did CIO with her. I can't help but wonder if sleep is miserable for her dd b/c, well, she learned to associate it with misery.

Quote:

*If, however, the bedtime, nighttime routine isn't working for you right now....don't hesitate to try to change it. We tried it all...waiting 5-7 min to see if my baby would fuss himself back to sleep (never a full on cry, of course), having Dad try to pat his back or rock him back to sleep before I'd nurse, starting out in a crib and then bringing him to bed, making bedtime earlier, etc...etc... I would wait a few days to see if the new routine was helping...if it was, great...if not, I'd go back to the old standbys. Trust yourself and your instincts and watch your babe for clues. Both my sons were so different in the sleep department that I learned to just trust myself and trust them. Each phase has its challenges but each phase does pass.
This as well. At a year, dd was waking around 7 times a night and I was SPENT. We tried having dh rock her back to sleep, but she wouldn't have any of it. At around 13.5 months, we tried again, and--lo and behold--she was usually perfectly content to have dh rock her back to sleep. We didn't force it--at that point, she was ready. She's not completely nightweaned--she wakes at around 5, nurses, then comes back to bed with us for an hour or two, and sometimes she wakes one additional time. But it's a LOT better than it was and it was a completely gentle transition, b/c we were meeting our needs while also paying attention to hers. (Now, BTW, she won't dh near her at night.







).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nora'sMama* 
I agree that people for whom this "method" has "worked" a) have selective memories - I think they blank out how bad it is and b) present their stories verrry misleadingly sometimes (i.e. they LIE).

Yup. MIL loves to talk about how dh slept through the night 12 hours from birth--how she would stay up at night listening for him, but he never woke, b/c he was such a great sleeper. She ALSO likes to tell the story about how he was "spoiled" at 3 months and so her pediatrician said she had to let him CIO at night, which she did. So which is it...a great sleeper or a "spoiled" baby who "needs" to CIO?

Oh, and once when my mom was watching my niece, she put her down to sleep and let her cry. My heart still breaks that I didn't go in and get her...I kept asking to and my mom said, "No, this is what we're supposed to do." I didn't have a child at that point, so I don't think I totally "got" how horrible this was. Anyway, after 20 minutes or so, my mom went in and found that dn had vomited all over herself and her bed. Not sure how bathing a baby, changing her bed linens and clothes, calming her down, and finally getting her back to sleep is "easier" than just going in the first place.


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## seoul_mama (Jul 10, 2007)

Thanks to all of you fabulous mamas for your insights about cio! I can't find the quote, but someone mentioned how their (sister?) cio'd only to find that her kids still sleeped in her bed at an older age. It reminded me of my sister who likes to brag about ferberizing her kids. Her older son, who is now 9 just started to stay in his own room. He'd always start in his room then would "sneak" into my sister's bed and sleep there the rest of the night. It made me think, why put your kids through that when they end up in your bed anyway.

I keep going back and forth on night weaning, which only tells me that I'm not ready and ds is not ready too. But I'm definitely going to read up on the suggested jay gordon method.


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## jennybean0722 (Jun 19, 2006)

You said from the heart so I'll be honest here. I read all of the books too, and I am anti-CIO. I would never want to do such a thing to a child ever! That being said, I was out of my gourd (sp?) and had PPD. When ds was about a year old, we night weaned him and now he only wakes up once a night, sometimes not at all (and no, I'm not bragging...). I honestly think we just lucked out on this one, not to mention followed our parental instincts and therefore "knew" when it was the right time for him. When he stopped nursing at night, I didn't get full at all. It really was the right time for him, he wasn't happy for about two nights and we were there for him.

Anyway, children are snowflakes. They are all so different and need to be parented in different ways (kindly!). This is what worked for us...good luck!


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## seoul_mama (Jul 10, 2007)

Thanks for all of your feedback. So many of you mentioned that cio babies still wake up at night, but parents have become desensitized to the crying, which I agree. I asked my sister if she uses a monitor in case her dd (20 months) wakes up. My sister said that the monitor is on her nightstand next to her head, which is set on high so that she can definitely hear when baby wakes up. However, my sister said that her dd NEVER (I repeat, NEVER) wakes up. Then I asked a friend if she uses a monitor for ds (14 months) and she said the same thing... that is, ds NEVER wakes up.

Me: "wow, they NEVER wake up in the middle of the night????"

Them: "NO."

Me: "would you be able to hear them cry if they did?"

Them: (slightly annoyed and put off by this question) "Of Course! the monitor is always on"

What's the deal here. Do I have a lying sister and friend? Are their babies rare exceptions? My ds is teething again - his upper molars and canines are coming in, which makes him cranky and, naturally, up a lot at night.

Again, I'm not advocating cio. it just seems like every cio practicing person I know thinks it's a great thing and has no complaints - I just wonder if they're not being honest....


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seoul_mama* 
What's the deal here. Do I have a lying sister and friend? Are their babies rare exceptions?

Does it really matter?

-Angela


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## seoul_mama (Jul 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Does it really matter?

-Angela

Short answer:

Yes.

Long answer:
As a new mom still adjusting to motherhood, as well as noticing that my own practices are not supported by the broader culture, I cannot help but to waiver at times with some of my parenting decisions. At the very core, I know that I am the expert of my baby and that my practices follow my intuitions. BUT, I would be dishonest if I didn't admit that I question myself as a parent, or that I am vulnerable to others who insist that their "methods" are better. Afterall, their methods tend to be emblematic of dominant mainstream practices; and to be completely impervious to this is unrealistic - imo.

So yes, it matters. When I am pressured to stop bfing and cosleeping and when I am told that other practices, such as cio is "much better" I want to know what is so appealing about practices outside of mine. When one method is touted as fail-proof, I become curious. When I see that others hold their viewpoints rigidly, I want to learn more about why. Because ultimately, even though there may be a difference in worldviews, there might still be something for me to learn.


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## dawncayden (Jan 24, 2006)

Most people I know that CIO, also drug up their kids on teething meds when they become more wakeful because of teething...so they are still 'sleeping through the night'

CIO makes a child give up, because they know you won't come to them, thats why they go back to sleep, it's not because they have 'learned to get back to sleep themselves'

My cousin who used CIO with her son still has to get up at least 2 times a night with her 2 year old.

Often when parents use CIO and it 'works' with their babies, soon have 3, 4...7 year olds that hate to go to sleep and associate bad feelings with going into their beds and being left to fend for themselves.
This is when you often get the 'can I have another glass of water...no the blue cup, I need the light on, I want another hug...' They just don't want you to leave.

We have never CIO and my son LOVES bedtime, he loves to go to sleep, and sure he still wakes often to nurse but I see his willingness to go to bed as proof that I'm doing the right thing.
When I ask him at night 'is it sleepy time?' he always nds his head and smiles


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

I actually cried myself to sleep last night because I'm horrendously sick and there was no one to comfort me and help me feel less alone. It felt absolutely horrible to know that there was no one who could help me. And I'm an adult with fairly good reasoning skills. I can only imagine how I would feel if I _knew_ that my parents were close by and who were perfectly able to comfort me but they were choosing not to.

It just feels so wrong, in my heart, to let a child cry when comfort is available. Generally, when I'm questioning a parenting practice, I ask myself how _*I*_ would want to be treated. And then I do the best of my ability to do that


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## seoul_mama (Jul 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia* 









I actually cried myself to sleep last night because I'm horrendously sick and there was no one to comfort me and help me feel less alone. It felt absolutely horrible to know that there was no one who could help me. And I'm an adult with fairly good reasoning skills. I can only imagine how I would feel if I _knew_ that my parents were close by and who were perfectly able to comfort me but they were choosing not to.

It just feels so wrong, in my heart, to let a child cry when comfort is available. Generally, when I'm questioning a parenting practice, I ask myself how _*I*_ would want to be treated. And then I do the best of my ability to do that


















I really appreciate this. I hope you feel better soon!


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Beating children can make them "obedient" but at what cost?

Doing something wrong, even if it gives the desired result, is still wrong.

CIO is wrong. It is neglect. In some situations it can be abuse. It is not an option. Doesn't matter if it "works" for some kids or not.

-Angela


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## queen_anne78 (Apr 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 

Doing something wrong, even if it gives the desired result, is still wrong.


Yes. We have come to believe in this day and age that the ends justify the means. I think this is wrong...this is how we justify torture. That we have a good end in mind, so it's ok to use an evil means to get there. It is a good end to want sleep for yourself and your babe. However, the means you use to get there must be good and pure. Good ends, good means, not good ends, bad means.

For me, as a Catholic, I could not let my daughter cry because I strive to emulate the Blessed Mother. Can you imagine her letting the baby Jesus cry it out???? No way. She loved him with a great, tender, and model love. She loved him with a self-sacrifcing love, and whether one is Christian, or atheist, or whatever, we are all called to love our children in this way. That is why AP and its philosophy appeals to me. I believe this is the way we were MADE to take care of our children.

By not CIO you teach your child that you are there for them when they need you, no matter what the cost. When your children see that you are willing to make sacrifices for them, they will see that they are truly loved.

Maybe CIO looks to be working for your sister and your friend. But at what cost??


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## seoul_mama (Jul 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queen_anne78* 

Maybe CIO looks to be working for your sister and your friend. But at what cost??

I agree, you make a great point... yes, cio works for people I know, but the larger question is AT WHAT COST.


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## Rainbowbird (Jul 26, 2004)

My son is now almost 5 and we never let him CIO. But, he's always been a great sleeper, with the exception of a colicky newborn period. So it was easy to never let him cry.

My dd is two and she isn't the sleeper that her brother is. There have been times (teething, nightmares, illness, growth spurts, who knows what) when she is up half the night and we finally decided to just bring her into bed with us when she wakes, rather than getting her out of her crib ten times.

It is not always a perfect solution, as she tends to thrash, likes to use my neck as a pillow, and kicks us if she decides we are in HER space.







:

However, most of the time we are getting a fair amount of sleep. And then she will go back to periods of sleeping peacefully in her crib without waking us til the cycle repeats.

There was one time when I was in your shoes and we tried to let her CIO. I mean, we went into her room multiple times to change her, rock her etc. but nothing worked. So I tried letting her cry. I don't know for how long, not very long, maybe 15 or 20 min. It seemed like an eternity to me and I'm sure it was to her. Well, she just made herself more hysterical. She is not one to give up. So I went and got her, and we have never done that since, and never will again. And I wish we never HAD done CIO, even once for a little while, because I know she was crying for me and wondering why in the world mama didn't come in.

So..DON'T DO IT! It is not worth the pain it will cause your little one, or the guilt you will feel afterwards. Hang in there. It does get better.


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## catchthewind (Jan 11, 2006)

I can't look into my baby's face when she's crying and not do everything I can to make her feel better, even if it's just holding her and telling her how much I love her. I have a friend who brags that she sleep-trained her babies at 6 weeks old, and uses this fact in any parenting discussion as if it makes her the better parent and everyone should listen to her. It makes me want to uke .

Personally, I don't think cio ever really works, even when it does, if you kwim? I don't think the baby stops being hungry, scared, alone. He/she just gives up on trying to find comfort. Sometimes I wonder which is worse, the baby left to cry who still believes someone might come, or the baby who has given up. If my baby is hungry, scared, etc I want to know about it.

I've also read babies left to cio often don't learn to soothe themselves, they have a favorite toy or blanket they need to get to sleep, rather than their parents. There was a story in our local news about a girl who survived a plane crash in her carseat. When she was found, she didn't ask for her parents (who hadn't been on the plane), she just wanted her teddy. Reading that made me sad.


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## seoul_mama (Jul 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *catchthewind* 

I've also read babies left to cio often don't learn to soothe themselves, they have a favorite toy or blanket they need to get to sleep, rather than their parents. There was a story in our local news about a girl who survived a plane crash in her carseat. When she was found, she didn't ask for her parents (who hadn't been on the plane), she just wanted her teddy. Reading that made me sad.









So sad!!!

Your post made me think about transitional objects... in psychology, children who take transitional objects (blankets, etc) are seen as healthy. That is, movement away from parental dependence is healthful. As a side note, I have a lot of problems with psychology. Anyhow, it seems that the promotion of transitional objects occured in tandem with the proliferation of sleep training. I wonder if there is a connection... So perhaps by prematurely separating child from parent, this leads to anxiety and stress in which the child must rely on a transitional object in order to be soothed. Rather than addressing the consequences of premature separation, researchers of psychology, sociology, and the like interpreted movement from parental object to inanimate object as a necessary developmental milestone. I'll stop here, be I'm just thinking out loud now. OK I'm off to do some research on the history of transitional objects...


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## AlbertaJes (May 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seoul_mama* 

What's the deal here. Do I have a lying sister and friend?

My DH can't hear the baby monitor when he's sleeping because he's conditioned himself not to need to. I hear it and tend to DD. As far as he knows (besides the fact that she's in bed with us in the morning), she never woke up or cried at all during the night. Maybe those moms have done the same thing.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *catchthewind* 
There was a story in our local news about a girl who survived a plane crash in her carseat. When she was found, she didn't ask for her parents (who hadn't been on the plane), she just wanted her teddy. Reading that made me sad.

I'd noticed that too.


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## catchthewind (Jan 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seoul_mama* 
Anyhow, it seems that the promotion of transitional objects occured in tandem with the proliferation of sleep training. I wonder if there is a connection... So perhaps by prematurely separating child from parent, this leads to anxiety and stress in which the child must rely on a transitional object in order to be soothed. Rather than addressing the consequences of premature separation, researchers of psychology, sociology, and the like interpreted movement from parental object to inanimate object as a necessary developmental milestone.

This is interesting. I always wonder how much of society's materialism and reliance on objects can be traced to parents who cio.









AlbertaJes, I love the quote in your sig. It's very apropos in this discussion.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seoul_mama* 








I really appreciate this. I hope you feel better soon!

Thanks, seoul mama







I still feel yucky, but tonight at least one of my little ones was there to pat me until she fell asleep. That helped me feel better







It's rare for me to be alone in a bed--it's kinda depressing I wasn't even able to enjoy it









I was curious if you've ever read this article that's stickied up at the top of the forum? It's a real confidence booster, IMO. You seem like a really caring and thoughtful mama. I hope that sleeping stuff starts getting easier for y'all. I know how hard it is when those close to us (and who are doing things very differently) seem to have it so easy while we're temporarily struggling.

Sorry to have rambled. Sweet dreams, all


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## monkeybum (Jan 1, 2005)

Sooooo glad I found this thread tonight. It's made me remember why I don't/shouldn't CIO. I have been so frustrated this week with the sleeping thing (I have a 7 month old and a 3 1/2 yo). The 7 month old has not been sleeping well suddenly. I decided just tonight to CIO - this was it, I'd had it, I wasn't going through this anymore...I was just going to let my baby cry...ok, that lasted about 30 seconds.







Just couldn't do it.

The look on his face, the fear, the sadness, the helplessness. My heart cracked in half that I had even contemplated it. Your gut tells you it's wrong when you are trying to do it, and your mommy instinct says "go to your baby, soothe your baby".

I wanted this baby sooo much, I feel so lucky and blessed to have him here with me. Why would I leave him to suffer when I can so easily comfort him? Sometimes when I'm at the end of my rope I ask myself, if he were gone tomorrow, if this were your last night with him, how would you spend it? I always answer (to myself







) I would hold him, snuggle and cuddle him all night. And that's what I do b/c you never know when your last day will be.

Okay, so that doesn't necessarily make you less sleep deprived...but what I can share is that is DOES get easier, and I think avoiding CIO helps that. All my CIO friends' kids - close in age to my nearly 4 year old - are always up, at least once a week they are up crying in the night.

My son - nearly 4 as mentioned - is a FANTASTIC sleeper. We coslept and night-nursed, he woke up all the time to nurse, didn't sleep more than about 3hrs at a time for the first 2 years of his life. Just after his 2nd b-day, we put a toddler bed next to ours and I nursed him to sleep on that. He slept there all night, through the night - like I'm talking 10-12 hours straight (remember he'd never gone longer than 3 hrs before!) from that very first night, and has ever since. That was almost 2 years ago. He NEVER wakes up at night, or if he does, he just gets himself a drink of water off the bedside table and goes right back to sleep. So I think he just needed to be away from the boob to stay asleep.

Interestingly, just after his 3rd bday, he was quite sick and so I brought him back in bed with us so I could keep a close eye on him in the night (i.e. hear him breathing all night). He continued to sleep through the night and has coslept in our bed for the last year. So it just took a short time of that additional distance to break the night-nursing cycle.

With the new baby going through the "I must crawl/play/stand at 3am and nurse all night long" thing right now, I keep trying to remind myself of how easy that transition was with my first and what a great sleeper he is now. I'll get there with #2 eventually, I just know it!







:

Now, my big problem is that I still nurse my nearly 4 year old to sleep...it's kind of driving me nuts, even though it works like a charm - gets him to sleep in about 30 seconds even after he's been jumping on the bed or is wired on chocolate...hard to give up those lazy bedtime rituals if they still work!









Kathy.


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## almadianna (Jul 22, 2006)

i am late to the party here but i want to add my 2 pennies here.
We made these children, we carried them for 9 months in our bodies and labored with the pain of childbirth for them.
Why would we purposely let them suffer like this? How can anyone think that it is natural or even good for their children?
I dont care if people say it works "just fine" I know it doesnt because even if they do sleep through the night they have been hurt in the process, I dont know how any parent could be ok with this.


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## gurglebaby (Aug 21, 2007)

I have been feeling sorry for myself all day today and then I read this thread. Thank God for MDC. I think we just need to know that we're not the only ones in the world that don't get sleep. ALL of my friends CIO and think I'm crazy so it just felt so good to come here and feel the love.

I cried when I read the stories of the poor babies that are made to CIO so hard that they vomit. It's so hard to hear. To think that this is the way most babies in North America are put to sleep just breaks my heart.

I was so frustrated today and now I feel like I can do anything and live with no sleep forever if that means my ds is happy, secure, and knows that he's loved.

Thank you so much everyone for sharing your stories. Hugs to all the mama's out there APing.


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## Astromom (Jun 19, 2006)

This was really beautiful. Thank you for posting this! I needed to read it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SuenCA* 
*These rough nights really do pass way faster than you can ever imagine. I look at my oldest with his gangly body, all elbows and knees and bruises and scrapes and stinky feet from sports, and wonder where that small baby went....the one who snuggled with me all night. Both of my boys go to sleep on their own after stories and spend most of the night in their own beds---although my husband and I love it when they crawl into our bed with us. The sleepless nights from their infancies are a distant, fuzzy memory. So, as painful as the sleepless nights are, take snapshots in your mind of how your child looks sleeping next to you or in your arms. There truly is nothing more precious than a small child asleep with you. Try to remember how it feels to have their small warm bodies nestled up to yours. Hold your babies' hands and nuzzle their soft head because someday soon, you, too, will have forgotten how tired you are today.


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seoul_mama* 

What's the deal here. Do I have a lying sister and friend? Are their babies rare exceptions? My ds is teething again - his upper molars and canines are coming in, which makes him cranky and, naturally, up a lot at night.

Again, I'm not advocating cio. it just seems like every cio practicing person I know thinks it's a great thing and has no complaints - I just wonder if they're not being honest....

They're not lying, they're just ignorant. They're assuming that because their child doesn't cry loud enough to wake them at night (because they've taught them it's futile), that they're not sitting up, looking around, playing with teddy, etc.

If you want an impartial statement on his, read Ferber's book - he says the point of CIO is not to stop them waking during the night, because everyone wakes during the night, but to get them to not disturb you when they do it.


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## maiat (Dec 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprilv* 
needs that are not met do not disappear, they just reappear later-- better a sleepless baby than an angry teen.

When I got pregnant my aunt said to me "Just don't ever let her sleep with you! With my kids, I just put earplugs in and closed the door." She's in therapy with her 23 yo daughter now. The daughter is depressed and says she's always felt that her mother didn't love her. How sad. That damage really doesn't get undone.


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## swampangel (Feb 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seoul_mama* 
Short answer:

Yes.

Long answer:
As a new mom still adjusting to motherhood, as well as noticing that my own practices are not supported by the broader culture, I cannot help but to waiver at times with some of my parenting decisions. At the very core, I know that I am the expert of my baby and that my practices follow my intuitions. BUT, I would be dishonest if I didn't admit that I question myself as a parent, or that I am vulnerable to others who insist that their "methods" are better. Afterall, their methods tend to be emblematic of dominant mainstream practices; and to be completely impervious to this is unrealistic - imo.

So yes, it matters. When I am pressured to stop bfing and cosleeping and when I am told that other practices, such as cio is "much better" I want to know what is so appealing about practices outside of mine. When one method is touted as fail-proof, I become curious. When I see that others hold their viewpoints rigidly, I want to learn more about why. Because ultimately, even though there may be a difference in worldviews, there might still be something for me to learn.

I just wanted to say that I totally see why you're wanting to know and understand more. Your post makes a lot of sense. And what a thoughtful mama you are. It is so hard to be alone in your choices with so many opposing parenting viewpoints surrounding you. It's not easy. I know the very few friends I have IRL who CIO make me question what the heck I'm doing from time to time when I'm so sleep deprived I shouldn't be driving my car!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dawncayden* 
Often when parents use CIO and it 'works' with their babies, soon have 3, 4...7 year olds that hate to go to sleep and associate bad feelings with going into their beds and being left to fend for themselves.
This is when you often get the 'can I have another glass of water...no the blue cup, I need the light on, I want another hug...' They just don't want you to leave.

We have never CIO and my son LOVES bedtime, he loves to go to sleep, and sure he still wakes often to nurse but I see his willingness to go to bed as proof that I'm doing the right thing.
When I ask him at night 'is it sleepy time?' he always nds his head and smiles









You know, that's our story too. My oldest (now nearly 5) has NO problems at all going to sleep and he sleeps like a rock. In the early years with him I never thought this would be possible. So there is definitely hope! He comes into our bed anytime he wants to and that usually goes in phases for him. Some nights he's in his bed all night, some nights in ours. It just depends. I used to wonder why he never found a "lovey" like so many kids I know but I like your explanation of his perhaps not needing to. What a nice thought...he didn't have to replace the loving comfort of his parents with an inanimate object. Very cool.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jennybean0722* 
Anyway, children are snowflakes. They are all so different and need to be parented in different ways (kindly!). This is what worked for us...good luck!

That is beautiful...I love the metaphor of children as snowflakes...so true.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *catchthewind* 
I've also read babies left to cio often don't learn to soothe themselves, they have a favorite toy or blanket they need to get to sleep, rather than their parents. There was a story in our local news about a girl who survived a plane crash in her carseat. When she was found, she didn't ask for her parents (who hadn't been on the plane), she just wanted her teddy. Reading that made me sad.

Oh god that's sad.


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## allfrog68 (Apr 14, 2007)

I was going to another board and then spotted this. My daughter is now 2.75 yo. I have to say that she weaned at 8 mo (somewhat mutual) so it is a different situation. I think she didn't sleep through the night until 18 months. Did a month of that then started waking again, think a lot has to do w/ the ambient temperature. She is now sleeping again through the night for past 3 months. I work FT so I look at the time w/ my daughter as extra bonding time. I won't ever regret the decision I made not to do CIO. I just knew it wasn't the right thing to do in my situation.

I can't relate to BFing at night at this age but do believe things will get easier sooner rather than later.


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## nolansmummy (Apr 19, 2005)

when my ds was little he wasn't sleepin and i was a new momma and had no real advice from other parents but there was one day i was so tired and fed up i tried to do cio, my dh hated it, i hated it , i lasted oh about 30 seconds literally. I couldn't hear him crying for me.. his momma...and just ignore it. How can you ignore a screaming baby crying anyway. My son co slept until just recently. Now he falls asleep on our bed and we move him to his bed...My dd sleeps with us, and if she is crying its because something is wrong...its my job to protect her,,,i made the decision to bring my children into the world and it is my job to protect them and keep them happy and safe this is way more important to me than getting 8 hours of sleep.
I also think that these people who say their babies sleep thru the night either had many sleepless nights..training their babies to cry themselves to sleep, or else they just don't hear the cries.
I hate when people think their chiildren are just huge inconveniences out to ruin their perfect lives.


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## AlbertaJes (May 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *catchthewind* 
AlbertaJes, I love the quote in your sig. It's very apropos in this discussion.

Thanks. I actually put that there in semi-retaliation for an arguement I got into elsewhere about CIO.







It's quite fitting even right now for me. My DD has recently decided that she doesn't want me to help her go to sleep. Doesn't even want me in the room. We only co-sleep part time, she sleeps in her own bed until after I go to bed. I used to get to rock her to sleep, and I miss it. Obviously this is what she's ready for, but I wasn't ready.







At least she's still cuddly after she's asleep and during the day.


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## seoul_mama (Jul 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *georgia* 
Thanks, seoul mama







I still feel yucky, but tonight at least one of my little ones was there to pat me until she fell asleep. That helped me feel better







It's rare for me to be alone in a bed--it's kinda depressing I wasn't even able to enjoy it









I was curious if you've ever read this article that's stickied up at the top of the forum? It's a real confidence booster, IMO. You seem like a really caring and thoughtful mama. I hope that sleeping stuff starts getting easier for y'all. I know how hard it is when those close to us (and who are doing things very differently) seem to have it so easy while we're temporarily struggling.

Sorry to have rambled. Sweet dreams, all









I love the article and I really do need to read it more often bc it's so validating!

So I just had a random thought... I think I might be feeling vulnerable about my parenting choices bc the holidays are coming up. I know for many, this is a joyous time, but for me it means wearing my extra thick suit of armor, and going into battle with family (my own and ILs). Anyone watch Seinfeld? Well, the Costanzas are like my family, except a lot more biting and confrontational, and not as funny. So I'm not looking forward to hearing things like, "you need to cut him off already" (re: breastfeeding) or "your milk doesn't have sufficient nutrients at this point" or "you're letting your baby manipulate you" or "you're the one that needs to take control. don't let your baby wake you up. he's old enough" and on and on and on..... Sometimes I'm amazed and wonder how is it possible that something that seems so right, natural, intuitive, and instinctive seem so weird, abnormal, and off-putting to others. It's one thing to deal with such comments over the phone, but to deal with them face to face??? Awful!

This thread has been incredibly helpful... I value all of your insights and feel very validated. I couldn't and wouldn't ever cio... i wouldn't even know how to do it with a cosleeping/bfing arrangment.


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## ABrez (Apr 4, 2007)

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...nik/Marvin.gif nak


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## waiflywaif (Oct 17, 2005)

I just want to say for those who are struggling that not cosleeping is not the same as CIO. Everyone will do what works for them, but I feel like threads like this sometimes make it sound like there is no middle ground.

We have never co-slept except on vacation. My daughter doesn't sleep well unless she's in her own bed. But we've NEVER done CIO either. No way could I ever do that. When she was a baby, I ALWAYS went to her every time she cried. Depending on the level of distress, I'd either pat her or sing to her, or sometimes if she was having big trouble I would rock her back to sleep. Then she would happily go back in the crib. Now she's almost 5, a fantastic sleeper, goes happily to bed and sleeps all night.

Just wanted a different perspective as sometimes it feels on this board like if you don't co-sleep you must be all into CIO. Not true.


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## seoul_mama (Jul 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *waiflywaif* 
I just want to say for those who are struggling that not cosleeping is not the same as CIO. Everyone will do what works for them, but I feel like threads like this sometimes make it sound like there is no middle ground.

We have never co-slept except on vacation. My daughter doesn't sleep well unless she's in her own bed. But we've NEVER done CIO either. No way could I ever do that. When she was a baby, I ALWAYS went to her every time she cried. Depending on the level of distress, I'd either pat her or sing to her, or sometimes if she was having big trouble I would rock her back to sleep. Then she would happily go back in the crib. Now she's almost 5, a fantastic sleeper, goes happily to bed and sleeps all night.

Just wanted a different perspective as sometimes it feels on this board like if you don't co-sleep you must be all into CIO. Not true.


Thank you for this; and what a thoughtful reminder of the varied ways we all parent. As I mentioned before, I wouldn't cio, but if I did I wouldn't even know how to do it with a cosleeping arrangement. It's unfair to make generalizations that non-cosleepers are also into cio. I think it's great that you can share this - I definitely value exploring multiple worldviews and giving each perpsective a fair chance.


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## mamahart (Sep 25, 2007)

I started reading at post #51 but wanted to chime in... the whole concept of transitional objects is interesting..both my kids have always had me...pretty much always. So neither one of them has an object they are attached to consistently....hmmm- maybe I'll figure out a poll.
I think you have heard it all, but looking at my 10 yr old who has such different needs makes it easier with the littler guy...AND if you ask children what they would do...they will always go to a crying baby, my DD's friends cannot even imagine not helping a crying baby. I think this is also interesting since they have no "theory" to rely on.


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## MaterPrimaePuellae (Oct 30, 2007)

We did not officially co-sleep-- I put DD in her crib at night, then when she woke up crying I nursed her in the twin bed in her room where we often slept until morning... if I woke up, I sometimes transfered her to her crib and went back to bed with DH.
I have not found CIO to be effective at all... in my experience, if DD goes to sleep peacefully (either I rock her or DH plays the guitar) she sleeps longer and better.
One caveat to this,though-- there is one particular cry (which I can almost always recognize) that seems to be her version of talking in her sleep. She very often does this in the early morning. If I go in and get her out of her crib, she fights me a bit and then wakes up and has a very hard time going back to sleep. If I leave her for a little while (no more than 5 min, generally), she settles back into deeper sleep and sleeps for at least another hour or two. She seems *much* happier upon waking (and throughout the morning) for having a few more hours of sleep. This all just comes down, I think, to knowing and responding specifically to your baby.


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## emma_goldman (May 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *seoul_mama* 
wow, this is great to hear. would you mind sharing whether they self-weaned or if you initiated it. AND if you initiated, how did you do it???

I don't know if this has been covered- I stopped reading at this one- but my 31-month-old co-sleeping night nurser has just started sleeping through the night if he's not teething or sick...

So, it DOES happen!


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## Astrogirl (Oct 23, 2007)

You know, as horrible as CIO is for a child emotionally (and thats reason enough right there), I just don't think it works. My coworkers 2 sons 'sleep through'....uh...kind of. The first one was rigidly sleep trained at 6 months - and his mom is one of those women who bragged and touted it as the solution to sleep problems. Thats up till the age of 2, when they cant really talk and all they can do is cry. So he CIOd at 6 months and until he was 2, he put himself to sleep like a 'good little sleeper'







: and alls well that ends well, right?

Wrong. What happens when he's older? He's 4 now and is harder to put down. Hes not in a crib anymore. He can't be left to CIO at that age. He can walk, he can talk and now they have _no methodology, no routine to handle it_ since all they had before was CIO. The youngest is 1.5 and still cries throughout the night - all night long. Not violently (as in vomiting), but still. He's been around for 1.5 years and they are still doing this since he was 6 months old? Yet they brag that he sleeps through and can put himself to bed and thats a life long skill (eyeroll). Of course he can put himself to sleep. He has no choice! But i seriously am starting to consider the idea that when he realizes he DOES have choices, they will be in the same boat.


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## junomama (Oct 28, 2006)

I just wanted to add my two cents to your original post, though I know you've been updating and responding throughout. Like you, DH and I know a ton of people who brag about how they sleep-trained their child through CIO, and how their babies now sleep through the night, etc. But it's interesting ... occasionally, a friend here or there has confided in me that she hasn't been able to bring herself to let her baby cry it out yet (as if that's a failing or weakness on her part). The thing is, more often than not, those babies are doing just fine in sleeping through the night, particularly once they've gotten past the first few months or. Sure, they wake up now and then (which is sometimes tiring for the mom, but nothing to worry about), but often, they'll sleep for up to five hours at a time. And these aren't co-sleeping, long-term breastfed babies, either - they're pretty mainstream, formula-fed babies (whose moms are probably being strongly pressured to CIO). I don't think non-CIO babies necessarily have "sleep problems." They're perfectly normal babies who just feel comfortable expressing their perfectly normal needs - needs that the rest of society has made us think are "problems."

We don't do it, either. We tried once, caving under pressure, and it was just too heartbreaking. It just didn't feel natural or right to let him cry. I'd rather have our son grow up knowing he can trust us to respond to him.

This has been such an interesting thread to read. Thank you for starting it!


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Astrogirl* 

Wrong. What happens when he's older? He's 4 now and is harder to put down. Hes not in a crib anymore. He can't be left to CIO at that age. He can walk, he can talk and now they have _no methodology, no routine to handle it_ since all they had before was CIO.

You don't want to hear this, but they still do CIO - they lock the door so the kid can't get out







:


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## phreedom (Apr 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaterPrimaePuellae* 
We did not officially co-sleep-- I put DD in her crib at night, then when she woke up crying I nursed her in the twin bed in her room where we often slept until morning... if I woke up, I sometimes transfered her to her crib and went back to bed with DH.
I have not found CIO to be effective at all... in my experience, if DD goes to sleep peacefully (either I rock her or DH plays the guitar) she sleeps longer and better.
One caveat to this,though-- there is one particular cry (which I can almost always recognize) that seems to be her version of talking in her sleep. She very often does this in the early morning. If I go in and get her out of her crib, she fights me a bit and then wakes up and has a very hard time going back to sleep. If I leave her for a little while (no more than 5 min, generally), she settles back into deeper sleep and sleeps for at least another hour or two. She seems *much* happier upon waking (and throughout the morning) for having a few more hours of sleep. This all just comes down, I think, to knowing and responding specifically to your baby.

My DD sometimes does that too. My "rule" for that is, if she is laying down then I don't pick her up (if she's not obviously awake). I always go in to check on her and will stay in the room until she stops. Which is usually less than a minute. If she is standing up, then she is awake. And the longer it takes for me to get to her, the harder it will be to get her back to bed. So I try to respond as soon as I can. Usually all I have to do is nurse her and she goes right back to sleep.

I don't like to ignore her cries because usually there is a reason for it. And for some reason I don't think manipulation is it. I have went in many times to find her in a poopy diaper or a wet, urine soaked bed from a leaky diaper. I couldn't imagine her sitting in that all night







:

As far as the "sleep competitions", compared to my CIO friends, my child actually seems to sleep really well. Not that I'm competing with them, I'm not. But how your child sleeps really depends on the child. Each child is different and there is not "one size fits all" method that will get them to sleep all night. They will do it when they are ready. In the meantime, if your helpless baby is crying in the middle of the night, it is your job (collective "you") as their parent to address those needs. Ignoring them is neglectful.


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## joannejoanne (Mar 16, 2007)

My little DS is almost 5 months old and we have co-slept from the start. Right now it's rough as he wakes up at least every hour (sometimes multiple times an hour). I am so tired I can hardly see straight. But I could never do CIO. He has the most heart wrenching sad face and I cannot imagine him making that face all alone in a room at night, wondering why no one is there to comfort him.


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## WoodlandFairytale (Nov 5, 2007)

I haven't read all the responses, but surely there are others who were subjected to CIO themselves where the effects extended into childhood. I am one of them. My mom said that when I was a baby, they kept my bassinet in the living room at night while they slept in the bedroom. I was their first and they had no idea how to deal with a crying baby at night, and thought they were supposed to just let me cry in another room.

I clearly recall - from the age of 3 until probably about 10 - fighting over going to bed every single night because I was scared to be away from my parents. They closed and locked their door every night. I was afraid of the dark and constantly had nightmares. I would cry and knock on their door and ask them to let me in, and most of the time they'd ignore me, though they'd occasionally open the door long enough to yell at me to go back to bed already. The problem was exacerbated when (I think I was 8 or 9) someone was breaking into our house through my open bedroom window and I went to try to wake up my parents and it seemed to take forever to get my dad to come to the door.

I can still remember the nightmares I had during those times. After my sister was born, I would go in her room and sleep on the floor next to her crib. It didn't make me feel much better, but I was glad at least to have *some* company and looking back, hopefully it helped her too.

Even as an adult I have issues with sleeping alone. I never feel safe. When my husband's not here, I barely get any sleep at all - I'm always waking up at every little noise, worrying that someone will try to break in or something.

ETA: I may be an extreme example, I guess, but I used to be a nanny to many children whose parents used CIO who had similar sleeping issues... Regardless, I hope you find a solution that works for you AND your baby. Good luck!


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## seoul_mama (Jul 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WoodlandFairytale* 
I haven't read all the responses, but surely there are others who were subjected to CIO themselves where the effects extended into childhood. I am one of them. My mom said that when I was a baby, they kept my bassinet in the living room at night while they slept in the bedroom. I was their first and they had no idea how to deal with a crying baby at night, and thought they were supposed to just let me cry in another room.

I clearly recall - from the age of 3 until probably about 10 - fighting over going to bed every single night because I was scared to be away from my parents. They closed and locked their door every night. I was afraid of the dark and constantly had nightmares. I would cry and knock on their door and ask them to let me in, and most of the time they'd ignore me, though they'd occasionally open the door long enough to yell at me to go back to bed already. The problem was exacerbated when (I think I was 8 or 9) someone was breaking into our house through my open bedroom window and I went to try to wake up my parents and it seemed to take forever to get my dad to come to the door.

I can still remember the nightmares I had during those times. After my sister was born, I would go in her room and sleep on the floor next to her crib. It didn't make me feel much better, but I was glad at least to have *some* company and looking back, hopefully it helped her too.

Even as an adult I have issues with sleeping alone. I never feel safe. When my husband's not here, I barely get any sleep at all - I'm always waking up at every little noise, worrying that someone will try to break in or something.

ETA: I may be an extreme example, I guess, but I used to be a nanny to many children whose parents used CIO who had similar sleeping issues... Regardless, I hope you find a solution that works for you AND your baby. Good luck!

















Thank you for sharing this. What a poignant example of the potential consequences of not responding to a baby's cry.


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## mouso (Feb 8, 2007)

I wanted to post again to let you know something interesting. I am on another message board and someone posted a question asking how a particular group of the moms who used CIO are doing (these were the holdouts who did it "later" - at about 8-9 months). They wanted to know how their babies are sleeping.

Every one of them is saying how their babies have "regressed." They are all still having to let their babies cry at least once a night. And I know some of them said that the CIO "worked" a couple of weeks ago.
And some of them say they have "given in" and feel guilty for answering their child's cries.










So there is another instance of CIO "working." And this is approximately 5 moms.


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## seoul_mama (Jul 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mouso* 
I wanted to post again to let you know something interesting. I am on another message board and someone posted a question asking how a particular group of the moms who used CIO are doing (these were the holdouts who did it "later" - at about 8-9 months). They wanted to know how their babies are sleeping.

Every one of them is saying how their babies have "regressed." They are all still having to let their babies cry at least once a night. And I know some of them said that the CIO "worked" a couple of weeks ago.
And some of them say they have "given in" and feel guilty for answering their child's cries.









So there is another instance of CIO "working." And this is approximately 5 moms.


Thanks for sharing this. I'm so intrigued by the guilt that parents feel in terms of "giving in." Said another way, parents feel that responding to their baby's cries is tantamount to failing. This seems to reflect the values of the broader culture, whereby independence, autonomy, and self-reliance are privileged and viewed as moral virtues. So it makes sense why parents who cio struggle with guilt - they want to respond, but have come to understand that responding may foster a needy child unable to rely on him/herself.


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