# "I'm too tired to brush my teeth."



## fuller2 (Nov 7, 2004)

The toothbrushing thing has been an issue for us for a long time, one I have handled badly in the past (as in holding him and forcing him to brush--blah, stopped that, was awful--came out of pure frustration and imagining the dental bills generated by a mouth full of cavities).

My son is 4.5 and is beginning to be aware of body-privacy things, like he now wants me to leave when he's going poop. I finally discovered that he would brush his teeth if I let him alone to do it--he actually ASKED me to put it that way, to say, "Time to brush your teeth now" instead of "Time for me to brush your teeth." But this would still be mixed in with him wanting me to do it, or refusing to do it at all.

Now he says, every night: "I'm too tired to brush my teeth." In response, when he then comes to bed and wants to read a book, I've been saying, "Well, then you're too tired to read a book, and we will just cuddle to sleep now." This has, 8 times out of 10, resulted in his going to the bathroom and brushing his teeth! (after which we read the book) so I feel like it "works," but on the other hand it also feels like a punishment somehow, or a manipulation. (Although sometimes I really just want to let him know that I know he's not REALLY too tired, if that makes sense...especially since half the time he's lying on the floor melodramatically groaning about how tired he is, and then looks at me with a big smile...)

On some level I don't care if he ever brushes his teeth again.

On the other hand, it's just frigging toothbrusing. He even picked out this last toothbrush himself when he told me the other one was too hard.

What should I be doing here??


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## violet (Nov 19, 2001)

This is a lame answer but it's one that i keep reminding myself:
Sounds like you are doing the right things, but you might feel frustrated that it isn't going any easier. Lately my DS has been hitting baby DS. We are doing ALL the things you do--and still it continues. DH keeps saying "The most important part of being sorry is not doing it again"
Ha! he's 3. of course he's gonna do it again. We'll ptobably be teaching him proper subling skills for years!!!!

that said--
my DH beats the toothbrush wars by telling stories while brushing their teeth. He makes up episodic stories so each day they clamor for the next part. works well
good luck


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

It sounds like you are doing the right thing and I dont think it sounds like you are punishing him at all! You are simply showing him cause and effect/natural concequense...surely if hes so tired he cant brush his teeth, he just wants to go to sleep right now!
I do something similar at mealtimes! I do not 'punish' and I do not want to make food issues! (I also dont reward with food) But I do like my son to eat healthy. I know when hes really hungry and when hes just being fussy (nothing wrong with either!). I wont deny a 'pudding' just because he hasnt finished everything off his plate (he doesnt have to), but I will if he doesnt eat a single bit of his meal that I slaved over in the kitchen ( hehe) for because as I tell him 'you must not be hungry then!' (which is fine)...and if hes not hungry, then surely hes not even hungry for pudding! Tbh...he doesnt care either way because when hes hungry, he eats it all and when hes not he just goes off to play instead - no fuss! (because I was right with him lol)

I have had the same issue with my son and toothbrushing though - but he HAS really been too tired for me to brush them! lol He goes right off to bed and falls asleep flat in mintues! So I dont blame him! but this has started to happen since he stopped taking an afternoon nap so he really is just plain tired! I have had to get creative and just change how and when I brush his teeth!... So maybe instead of making this a struggle with your child - perhaps brush his teeth at a different time? I have currently taken up brushing his teeth in the bath - before storytime, pj time, etc! Hes wide awake, playing, having fun, and no excuse for anything really! - gets the job done! hehe


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fuller2*
Now he says, every night: "I'm too tired to brush my teeth." In response, when he then comes to bed and wants to read a book, I've been saying, "Well, then you're too tired to read a book, and we will just cuddle to sleep now." This has, 8 times out of 10, resulted in his going to the bathroom and brushing his teeth! (after which we read the book) so I feel like it "works," but on the other hand it also feels like a punishment somehow, or a manipulation. (Although sometimes I really just want to let him know that I know he's not REALLY too tired, if that makes sense...especially since half the time he's lying on the floor melodramatically groaning about how tired he is, and then looks at me with a big smile...)

It seems fairly obvious that he isn't really too tired, he just doesn't want to brush. So I wouldn't go the whole, "You're too tired for stories" route, I would call him on it. Say, "You're not too tired, you just don't want to." IME, children are more likely to be honest about these things when we honor their feelings. If he thought he could say, "I don't want to," and that would work, then he'd probably say that, right?

Quote:

On some level I don't care if he ever brushes his teeth again.
If this is how you feel, then stop the battles. I was going to suggest re-examining your reasons for wanting him to brush his teeth. It is not necessary for the prevention of cavities. There are many foods that help clean the teeth. Apples are great for this. Just make sure he's taking bites, (don't mash them or anything,) so it can wipe against his teeth. Avoid sugary, sticky foods, and eat a healthy diet. Have him drink water after eating to help wash away residues.

Toothbrushing is not necessary.


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## fuller2 (Nov 7, 2004)

I am inclined to agree with you that it is not necessary--but why? What is your evidence?

I mean, MY teeth feel a lot better after I brush, anyway. (not that it has prevented cavities in my case!! I have a mouthful. My brother, on the other hand, has eaten sugar and junk all his life, used to never brush his teeth, and has never even had a filling. Sigh.)


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

Can't you have him brush his teeth earlier?


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## KariAnn (Mar 15, 2006)

Just subbing on this one. We have this same stinking battle with our almost 6 year old dd every.single.night. Seriously, we dread getting ready for bed.
I do feel it is important to brush her teeth. I have great teeth, my dh does not. In the past year and a half, we have shelled out over $3,000 for his teeth and I would like to avoid that if I can for my daughter. Until I can find time to research teeth and the proper maintenance of, it needs to be done. I think we will try brushing them earlier. Please keep the ideas coming!


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

This issue comes up on the CL group often, here are a few old posts and info about toothbrushing. There is also info in the Dental forum about natural dental care. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...play.php?f=308

Pat

Quote:

The Invisible Toothbrush
By Emmanuel Cheraskin, MD, DMD

Quote:
One of the many risk factors for heart disease is poor dental health. The root cause for both diseases is probably the same-nutritional deficiencies, including deficiency of vitamin C. In this article, Dr. Emmanuel Cheraskin presents evidence that serum vitamin C levels are just as important as brushing for the prevention of tooth decay. His research also explains why primitive peoples on nutrient-dense diets have no tooth decay, in spite of the fact that they do not brush their teeth.

http://www.westonaprice.org/healthissues/toothbrush.html
Well, ds doesn't consume a lot of sugar and he does brush, and still had a ton of cavities. And I had a ton of cavities as a child. I have a mouth full of mercury fillings. Dh had his very first cavity, an itsy-bitsy one, at age 40. I believe that there are very many variables. The worst culprit that I have learned is providing chewable Vitamin C tablets which are severely acidic and destructive to tooth enamel. Ds loved them! We also used sippy cups beyond a very early age for spill-proof benefits. (still do) Apparently, this contributes to maintaining an acid oral flora. When one drinks juice or milk in a single sitting, the natural flora rinses the teeth to a more proper
pH.

We didn't brush at bedtime consistently. Rather we brushed throughout the day. Apparently bedtime brushing is more efficient due to the decreased saliva production at night. My own lack of nightime brushing apparently increased the bacterial counts (strep mutans the specific bacteria that causes cavities in the presence of acidity); but *I* haven't any additional cavities. We didn't use Xylitol products. We do now. And specifically the mother's use of xylitol products prenatally decreases cavity production in the child's teeth up to one year subsequently. Essential fatty acids and vitamin A in the prenatal and postnatal diet (breastfeeding) are huge variables. I had these.

Reading on the VeryYoungKidsTeeth site will convince anyone that sugar
and brushing are NOT the issues to cavity development.
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group...oungkidsteeth/ There are many very restrictive parents there who severely limit simple sugar foods and brush their children's teeth religiously twice a day (many forcefully). And their VERY young children still have developed extensive dental caries. A mother sharing utensils and foods with the child increases the oral bacteria count passed to the child. We didn't do this either. So, the main issue that I can discern is the chewable Vitamin C destroying the tooth enamel and led to decay.

http://www.dentalgentlecare.com/trident_research.htm

http://yourreturn.blogspot.com/2005/...rstanding.html

Apples, carrots, celery and other crunchy fruits and veggies help to clean plaque off of teeth, and cheddar cheese helps to change (I think) the pH balance in the mouth so that plaque is less likely to form. You could just plan on keeping small snack plates of these available and out much of the time.

Rinsing with water after eating, especially after eating sugar, will help reduce the formation of plaque. Again, have a favorite water bottle or cup with water available where he is -- in front of the TV, in his room, whatever. Then it's easy to reach when he wants it, and it's no big deal if he doesn't.

There are some great kids' books that really explain what plaque is and how it works, on the bacterial level -- the scientific information. If you don't already have them, buy one or two of those books and just have them in your book collection -- that way the information is available as she happens upon it.

There are lots of different toothbrushes (including the electric/rotating toothbrushes), toothpastes, and mouthwash/rinse products out there that kids can try. There are also different gums that can help clean the teeth, and those Listermint papers kill some germs, too This doesn't have to be a big deal, but when you go shopping together, you can just let him pick out some of these things that look fun to him,
and that way you'll have an assortment of different things at home.

texture and taste of the toothpastes -- I think the activity itself just raises a *lot* of sensory issues for a lot of kids. At that age, when their mouth is still so related to
pleasure and comfort and taste of food, it can feel very violating to put something relatively large and hard and prickly in there. I think as parents we can *start* the conversation there -- validating that it can be really unpleasant to do this thing.

One other thing you could try is, instead of using a toothbrush, use a wet washcloth with toothpaste, pushed over his teeth by one finger. It might feel gentler and more in control.


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fuller2*
I am inclined to agree with you that it is not necessary--but why? What is your evidence?

Well, thanks to Pat, I don't have to answer this, which is good because I don't actually have any evidence. I just have my own mouth free of cavities, (I never was big on brushing,) and a belief that our bodies are capable of caring for themselves and healing themselves if we eat well and live well. I think brushing is like taking medicine; it's helpful sometimes, but it treats the symptoms and not the underlying cause.


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## L&IsMama (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abac* 
It is not necessary for the prevention of cavities. There are many foods that help clean the teeth. Apples are great for this. Just make sure he's taking bites, (don't mash them or anything,) so it can wipe against his teeth. Avoid sugary, sticky foods, and eat a healthy diet. Have him drink water after eating to help wash away residues.

Toothbrushing is not necessary.

Are you serious? Apples? They have, um, sugar in them.







:

As the mama of 2 kids with serious dental issues, it is simply one of the few things that are not choices for my kids. It gets done. Either they do it followed up by me, or I do it. Period. It is a health/safety issue, just like riding in a carseat, or running in the road. If my ds came to me and said he wanted to get out of his carseat and run in the road, well, it wouldn't happen. Some things are simply *non negotiable*, and I dunno why people feel bad for wanting to keep their kids healthy and safe, yk?







I certainly don't enjoy it when I have to force my kid into a carseat of hold them down to brush teeth, but the consequences of not doing these things is to great *not* to do them.


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## L&IsMama (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *abac* 
I don't have to answer this, which is good because I don't actually have any evidence. I just have my own mouth free of cavities, (I never was big on brushing,) and a belief that our bodies are capable of caring for themselves and healing themselves if we eat well and live well. I think brushing is like taking medicine; it's helpful sometimes, but it treats the symptoms and not the underlying cause.

Underlying cause? Dental caries also occur in people who eat healthy diets, too.


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

My son went thru this stage too. What we did was to let it go at the moment and then tell him bed time would be a little earlier the next night. It took a few days of bed time being 7:15 instead of 7:30 to get him in the habit. Now if says he's too tired he usually is and a few missed tooth brushings is not going to hurt.

Being a gal with a mouth full of horrible fillings all the evidence in the world is not going to discourage me from trying to instill good dental hygiene in my son.







:


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## MtBikeLover (Jun 30, 2005)

Brushing is important to me too, although I didn't start brushing the kids teeth until they were 2.5 because I just couldn't take the struggle. That said, we still miss a few days when everyone is truly just too tired to brush.

Sometimes I brush earlier, even if they eat a snack at bed I figure that at least I got most of the stuff off their teeth. But my kids know that we read after teeth are brushed. I usually say "After teeth are brushed, we read stories." Sometimes my son will come back with "Read me one story and then I will brush my teeth" which I always agree to and he follows through.


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

...


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## Imogen (Jul 25, 2006)

I've thankfully never experienced any issues with my 3.5 yr old son with teeth brushing, infact he likes to exert his independence and tries to brush them himself... asking for assistance when required.

Is there a specific reason as to why your little boy dislikes teeth brushing? The texture or taste of the toothpaste, the brush maybe? Are there any alternatives which may work better for him?

Peace


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

for us toothbrushing is non-negotiable. i read here on MDC once an analogy comparing it to a poopy diaper. you wouldn't leave your child in a poopy dipe 'cause he might get a rash, etc, and leaving him with dirty teeth might lead to cavities. some kids might not get a rash in a poopy dipe, but it's still yucky. some kids might not get tooth decay with unbrushed teeth, but how do you know if your child is going to be the one to get a cavity? anyway that discussion is probably better left to the dental forum.

as far as the "too tired" excuse i hear that one a lot when somebody doesn't want to do something around here. i think the advice about reframing it as "sounds like you don't want to, huh" might work. otherwise i'd probably take a playful parenting approach to it. we often have to brush things out of our mouths even at 6.5 "is that a dinsosaur in there? oh, no it was just a little broccoli."

there are actually many great threads in the dental forum about how to make brushing fun for little ones. might be worth checking out, but you need to decide if this is an issue that you think is important or not. you sound kind of on the fence about it. i have a lot of tooth issues now and had a bad candy habit as a kid and did not take great care of my teeth. i'd like to do anything i can to spare my dds my woes. my dd1 has big dr/dentist anxiety as it is and i certainly want to do anything i can to maximize her chances of being able to avoid having to undergo a filling. i think she would be freaked out to no end if she had to have a filling. so that's my 2¢!


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

My suggestion would be much earlier in the day say you'd like to have a meeting. Sit down together and talk about it. It seems like toothbrushing has been causing some problems. It is a part of life and something that needs to be done so what's the best way we can figure out to make it less of a hassle. And, then problem solve together. One thing that works well with many kids that age is to have a posted routine. You can make simple pictures together (or more elaborate if you want to use a digital camera) and then he can paste them on a poster board in the order he does the jobs. The key is to get him involved in this process. We have a problem, let's find a solution. If he helps make up the solution he's going to be more invested in making it work.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I know this answer probably won't be popular, but teeth brushing here is non negotiable. It will be done, and we will sit in the bathroom together until it is done. He used to give us a lot of problems about it, including the "I'm too tired" thing, and my answer was something along the lines of "I'll help you if you are too tired."

I'm not buying the whole "toothbrushing isn't necessary" thing. I get the premise, but we don't live like the first humans did. Our water is different, our foods are different, we eat way more sugar, etc. And we live a lot longer.

Ancedotally, good dental care makes a big difference in my dental health. I eat well, but if I don't floss every single night (and brush of course), I have gum issues, as well as many cavities. I have a friend whose son had a lot of dental issues as a younger child, and since they became strict about toothbrushing he has not had any problems.

Plus, unbrushed teeth are just gross. When my son's breath stinks in the morning (not every morning, but sometimes) I tell him that we can't cuddle up and read until he brushes his teeth. It's not a punishment - it's the truth. I'd tell my dh the same. I don't need someone breathing stinky breath in my face.

Anyhow, I guess for you it's important to determine if it's negotiable or not. If it is, then "I'm tired" isn't a problem.


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## fuller2 (Nov 7, 2004)

We have played games, pretended to be brushing out trains, etc., and they all worked for a while. Talking toothbrush, etc. Then no more.

Also, trying it earlier usually is not good either--he doesn't want to do it then either.

For a while I was pretending to be the germs in his mouth and they were saying "Ha ha, we win, ds doesn't want to brush," and then he would brush and I would say "AAGGH!! NOOOOOOOO!" and he would laugh and laugh. Then one day he started to cry because he felt sorry for the germs. (I guess I hammed it up a little too much.) That was the end of that.

I just tried to brush his teeth in his sleep, but that didn't seem to work very well...

Someone I know, the person in charge of dental hygiene for a state public health department and a staunch fluoride etc person, admits that a big reason you get cavities is the acid level in your mouth. So sometimes I just think that some people are prone to cavities no matter what they do, and some are not. My dad also had no cavities--but he did end up with gum disease in part because he never flossed.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Try the *Spry xylitol gum*. Not all gum with xylitol has 1gm per piece. Several pieces a day need to be chewed. But, not more than 4, since xylitol can cause diarrhea in excess. We buy the 100 piece container of cinnamon flavor from VitaCost.com.

http://www.vitacost.com/Xlear-Spry-Gum-Spearmint

Is there something uncomfortable about brushing, recently? A new tooth emerging, or a sore spot, tender tooth? Chamomilla homeopathy pellets help with oral sensitivity.

HTH, Pat


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

When my kids were younger we sometimes had problems getting them to brush. I found that buying an Oral B electric brush solved the problem - they actually liked using it.

These days you can buy cheaper battery operated Oral B "Spinbrush" brushes, you could try one of them and see if he likes it before springing for the more expensive version.


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## pumpkinyum (Mar 27, 2007)

For those who choose not to brush and depend on fruits and veggies to clean their mouths....

What about bad breath? Morning breath, especially...do you gargle, or just chew on a carrot or something?

Also, wondering about plaque buildup and gunk in between your teeth--do you floss? Or do vegetables dissolve plaque in between your teeth?


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## pixiesmommy (Apr 19, 2007)

OMG- I'm floored about the apple idea. Not only do apples have sugar, but last year at DD's school one of the kids did a science experiment about oral hygeine using egg shells to represent the calcium/enamel and 100% apple juice was the #1 cause of breakdown- far surpassing even SODA.
I realize that our teeth and eggshells are different, but OMG! If it can eat through an eggshell more easily than COKE, which can take the paint off an automobile- it is NOT what I would choose for tooth care!

Not meant to offend anyone by any means, I'm just shocked!


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## abac (Mar 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pixiesmommy
*
OMG- I'm floored about the apple idea. Not only do apples have sugar, but last year at DD's school one of the kids did a science experiment about oral hygeine using egg shells to represent the calcium/enamel and 100% apple juice was the #1 cause of breakdown- far surpassing even SODA.
I realize that our teeth and eggshells are different, but OMG! If it can eat through an eggshell more easily than COKE, which can take the paint off an automobile- it is NOT what I would choose for tooth care!

Apples, NOT apple juice. There's a big difference. Yes, apples have sugar, but when you eat an apple, the sugar does not stay on the teeth. An it is the hard surface of the apple that wipes away the plaque, (similar to the bristles on a toothbrush.) Apple juice is not something I would consider a healthy choice because the sugars are super concentrated. (Just check out the sugar content in a 250ml serving of apple juice, and have a look at the calories, also. They are very high.) I wouldn't recommend using apple juice as mouthwash.







I'm talking about whole, unmodified, unprocessed apples. Not apple juice and not apple sauce.

Somewhat related, (just as a comparison between soda and juice,) was a recent study, (I read about it in the paper so I can't give a source,) showing that juice drinking is a major cause of obesity in children, on par with soda drinking, as it has such a high concentration of sugar and such a high calorie content. ALL of those calories come from sugars, none from fat, protein, or any other carbs. I don't know what the sugar content is in an apple, as compared to apple juice, but I know it is much, much lower.

I actually do brush my teeth, and ds does occasionally. I do think it can be helpful, just not the only way or the best way to keep teeth healthy.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pumpkinyum*
What about bad breath? Morning breath, especially...do you gargle, or just chew on a carrot or something?

Also, wondering about plaque buildup and gunk in between your teeth--do you floss? Or do vegetables dissolve plaque in between your teeth?

Chewing a sprig of parsley can help bad breath as can chewing a couple of fennel seeds, yummy! Mint is good, too. I find rinsing with water, or just drinking some water first thing in the morning can often take away most of that bad breath smell.

I don't floss generally. Maybe if there's something stuck in my teeth. I have a couple of widely spaced teeth where I notice plaque buildup sometimes, and I usually use a toothpick or toothbrush to wipe it away. My fingernails work pretty well, too.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

The issue is that tooth brushing doesn't assure cavity-free dental health. But, there are many alternatives which do nurture dental health.

Pat


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## Quinalla (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fuller2* 
Someone I know, the person in charge of dental hygiene for a state public health department and a staunch fluoride etc person, admits that a big reason you get cavities is the acid level in your mouth. So sometimes I just think that some people are prone to cavities no matter what they do, and some are not. My dad also had no cavities--but he did end up with gum disease in part because he never flossed.

Some people definitely are more prone to cavities (my Dad is a dentist) while others can get away without brushing much. However, brushing and flossing helps everyone and the point about us living longer is a good one, we need our teeth to last longer. It isn't the only thing you do for dental health, but it is an important part.


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