# Disillusioned by AP



## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Well, this is just a rant I guess on a bad day. But I've been an AP advocate for years. I didn't start until DD was 2, and I have since learned that APing a child is TOTALLY different to APing a baby.

I now have an 8 week old who has been exclusively ap'd that whole time. Babywearing, cosleeping, bfing, you name it, we're on it. However, I feel I've been mislead. I was lead to believe that a baby who is AP'd, worn all day and all the rest of it doesn't cry or get that evening colic thing. Well, DS bloody well does!

He becomes inconsolable, no finger sucking, boob, rocking, bouncing, nothing will calm him and I feel ripped off as the Continuum Concept and several other AP type books all reel you in by saying your baby will be more content if all those needs are met.

So there I end up, holding a screaming baby who's only need seems to be to cry. I have read Aletha Solter's work, and so I hope she's right when she says holding them while crying is helping them work through trauma and stress.

But why do the other cultures have calm babies (and I've done masses of study, they are as chilled as they say they are) but ours, no matter how closely we mimic that lifestyle, still don't seem to be? Am I missing something? Overlooking something? I haven't been stressed, so he's not picking up on that (although, now I might be







), he is healthy, although he may have a silent reflux. But that's just me trying to find an excuse for his screaming at my boob and kicking and being really uncomfortable through feeds instead of the lovely feeds I dreamed of.

I'm seeing a lactation consultant today to help with the feed issues. But what of the other stuff? Are babies in our culture just gonna wail at this age no matter WHAT we do?


----------



## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Has anyone done daily skin to skin contact for long stretches and found that helps? Its the only thing I don't do, other than a daily bath with him and he sleeps on my boob as a pillow. It's winter here, otherwise I'd have us both nekkid all day.


----------



## hibana (Jun 9, 2006)

Any possibility your wee one is having issues with something in your diet?


----------



## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

I'd also consider dietary issues.

I will say, too, that my DS absolutely hated to be worn. Now as a 3YO, cuddling him during a meltdown is the last thing he wants. I know many people here say AP is really about responding to needs. I have ambiguous feelings on that because I've read quite a few books that give lists of things to do with your children to be AP. I don't use the term AP; I don't like the idea of pigeon-holing and then arguing about what is/isn't in a philosophy. So my general parenting belief is that I do what works best for me and my child. If that means being cuddled, then that's fine, but for some babies/children/adults, that's not very comforting.


----------



## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

I tried to head that one off at the pass, good call though. When he was born, I stopped eating pretty much everything.







No dairy, no citrus, no tomatoes, no gas forming foods, well, basically, a list that's very long I followed to the T. In the last four days, I have reintroduced dairy and tomatoes, slowly. But this behaviour has been here for weeks, so I don't believe it's related to the food.

I'm on good supps, fish oils, spirulina (on occasion), etc.

Thanks for the hug.


----------



## hippymomma69 (Feb 28, 2007)

FWIW, I've AP'd both my kids. DD (my first) had the evening cries every bloody night. But she was my first so I thought that was normal. Turns out she has some sensory issues so maybe she was getting overwhelmed by everything by the end of the day. Nothing I could have done would have changed that.

My son had a horrible adjustment from the hospital environment to our home (he was in the NICU). The first night he wailed for 12 hours straight. Boy did I feel like a total failure. But he adjusted. And now you couldn't find happier BF, held kids anywhere.

Ultimately, I'm seeing most of the benefit of the AP approach as they get older...they just have a very different loving manner to them than other kids - all of their caregivers and teachers have commented on it. So I definitely feel it was worth it. Despite all the crying - mine and theirs LOL

hth

peace,
robyn


----------



## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Hi BR. He seems ok in the sling, asleep in it right now actually. I don't know what I'd do without it cos he likes to be bounced on teh fit ball to settle, which kills my back. It also starts to hurt holding him free hand all day. He naps in his sling, so he's on a body almost all day except the odd occasion he is put on the couch to nap for a little while.

It's hard work, I tell ya.


----------



## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

THanks Robin. I'll plough away at it. Well, I guess there is no other choice, I can't stand the look he gives me if I put him down and he's not ready for it so I'm definitely following his lead at this stage.

It was a traumatic birth for him. I'm hoping (but not really, if you catch my drift) that he's just working through that, wailing on me like anyone would after such an event.


----------



## angela40 (Mar 25, 2008)

i think sometimes it is just a developmental thing... i know it is not an AP book but in Healthy Sleep Habits... the author says that babies tend to get that way and peak at about 8 wks and by 16 wks they are much better and happier... and if they are early (as my first one was born at 32 wks) that they will peak with crying and fussiness 8 wks after their original due date; darn if he wasn't right on the money. it was easier with my second because i knew what to expect...at about 5 wks he started inconsolable crying (esp around 2-5 am!) but sure enough by 9-10 wks he was better.
long way of saying maybe your 8 wk old is peaking with this and by 8 more weeks will be much happier!! it gave me hope at the time!
as to why other cultures don't have that ...i don't know- they really don't have fussy crying 8 wk olds? wow. luckies.
anyway try to hang in there it should be better at 12-16 wks old!


----------



## eurobin (Aug 20, 2006)

My healthy, non-gassy and non-allergic daughter was a huge colicky mess for the first 11-12 weeks. She was worn, breastfed, co-slept, held, etc. Sometimes it just takes a while for them to adjust to life on the outside.

How much support do YOU have? It's common for mamas in other cultures to have the supports of others mamas, grandparents, aunties, etc. Are you going it alone, or mostly alone?


----------



## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

have you tried taking baby to the chiropractor?

The baby could be crying from a headache or a backache, or just "not feel right" because things are "out of whack" with his spine.


----------



## Mallory (Jan 2, 2002)

I think being outside for hours everyday can make a baby happy too.

Even if it is cold bundle up and go for a walk around the block instead of just bouncing!


----------



## Romana (Mar 3, 2006)

I also pretty much AP both dc.

My dd was a screamer. Absolutely inconsolable. And once she started crying, it just got worse, and worse, and WORSE. Dh and I coped by trying to head off the beginning of the crying jag (which could last as long as 12 hours) and once it started, by handing her back and forth every 10 min (or you held her longer if by some miracle she stopped crying for a moment). During your 10 min "off" you weren't allowed to try to calm the baby; that was your time to recenter, ignore the baby to the extent possible, and regroup. It was the only way we survived it.

I was already doing all the AP stuff - skin to skin, BF on demand, co-sleeping, etc. And we tried elimination diets etc. Nothing helped. Not a darn thing.

It went away when she was about 2-3 mos old. By 3 mos we had a pretty happy baby, although still much higher strung than most. She's still that way. Very intense.

I found out recently that some babies' brains don't work the same way as most - for intense babies/kids like that, when they cry, their brains don't release serotonin. The reason most babies calm down after a minute or two of crying (or their need is met) is because crying causes the release of serotonin. With an intense baby, it's like riding a neverending escalator up and up and up, and nothing you do can calm the baby. Well, sometimes a whole heck of a lot of gentle jiggling helped.

Our ds, who is now 2.5 mos, has been the easiet baby ever. You can soothe him when he cries. As long as his needs are met, he calms after a few minutes of crying (such as in the car, one of the few situations where he might cry for a few minutes). The crying is less intense to start and has never reached the levels of intensity dd was at pretty much from the moment she started crying.

That's a lot about me, but my point is that it's not you and it's not AP. There is nothing different about me this time around than with dd. It's just the way the baby is. While I think it's important to try to find a reason for the crying, such as reflux or dietary issues or what have you, when you've ruled out everything known to humankind, all you've got left is "I have a fussy baby." In my experience, AP can't fix that.

I know exactly where you are and I had a hard time with it. I think the most important thing to remember is that this tough time is pretty short and in a few weeks or at most a couple of months, this will be behind you and your baby will be happier (and so will you!).

ETA: My dd also had the same feeding issues - screaming at the breast - which brought me to tears over and over. It was so disappointing and frustrating. The LC was not able to help me. She just suggested the stupid football hold again, which was not helping and was awkward and uncomfortable for both me and the baby. By 3 mos, the screaming at the breast stopped. Really, things got much better at that point. Most people I've known who had very fussy babies agreed it was much better by 3 mos.


----------



## One Art (Nov 9, 2005)

Just a thought: my dd2 had terrible colic for the first few months. I took her to a chiropractor/naturopath who adjusted her spine and neck (it was very gentle, like a massage), and gave her a remedy. Immediately following the 2nd dose of the remedy, dd2 never had colic again. It truly felt nothing short of miraculous.


----------



## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

I don't believe for a minute that babies in some other cultures are always calm. Some of them are, but all of them? Not buying it for a second.

I see AP as a toolkit. Some of it works for some kids. Some of it doesn't work for other kids. I take what's useful and leave the rest. I've seen plenty of AP'd kids with great, easygoing personalities, and some that are extremely trying.


----------



## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

IMO some kids are just going to be colicky. Mine was. I don't care how she'd been raised, that kid would have screamed every night for the first three months.

You can't necessarily keep a baby from crying, but you can keep a baby from having to cry alone. That is a great thing and will be very helpful to him, even if it doesn't get him to stop crying.


----------



## Twinklefae (Dec 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm* 
It was a traumatic birth for him. I'm hoping (but not really, if you catch my drift) that he's just working through that, wailing on me like anyone would after such an event.

I think this has a bigger affect than some people are willing to allow for. DS went through a really cranky phase where it seemed like nothing helped. The only thing that stopped it for us (and for friends we told about it) was crying in arms. I stopped moving, stopped shushing, and sat down on my bed and let him cry in my arms. Much like I would do with a friend who was upset, I let him cry. And he settled down after a few minutes, and a few nights later it was routine. He outgrew the evening crankies shortly after. (I don't know whether crying in arms helped him work through whatever was making him cry, or whether he just outgrew it).

Anyway, I agree with the pp's who said that AP is about meeting your child's needs. And sometimes your LO may need to cry. The big thing for me was not getting myself stressed about it. AP is not about your child never crying, it's about supporting them and meeting their needs while they do it. (and I agree that books like CC make it seem like your child will never cry, and it feels like a big rip off.








)


----------



## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Quote:

anyway try to hang in there it should be better at 12-16 wks old
I loved reading this! Thank you to those who gave me this hope.

Quote:

have you tried taking baby to the chiropractor?
Yes, and an osteopath. I only went once to the chiro and twice to the osteo and both were for the sinus issue we're also dealing with (snuffles and blockages after feeds). I was lookign for some improvement before I spent on a second appt with the chiro but not a thing moved at all. He does have an aversion to the right breast, it has a faster flow and we thought it was a neck thing.

Quote:

Are you going it alone, or mostly alone?
Thankfully, no. I have a lot of support and a great husband.

Quote:

I think being outside for hours everyday can make a baby happy too.
We walk DD to school. We sit under the lemon tree at lunch time for tummy and back play. Not much but something. I try to keep him busy, even if he's asleep - well, truth be told, I like to keep busy, so I go out everyday if I can or I go nuts. I prefer him to fall asleep that way than in front of the computer on the fitball. Even though the fitball is the fastest.

Thanks Romana.









*Emily*, do you remember what the remedy was?

I've taken to it being part of the routine now, the crying. At about 5pm he maybe feeds (a scream-feed) and then after a little while, grizzles and I know it's gonna hit any minute. So I take him to a quiet room on the rocking chair when it hits and sit and rock with him, talking gently as he screams his nut off. I check now and again he doesn't want to suck my finger, his own hand or my breast and if not, I hold him back up and cuddle him through it. I don't know what else to do.

Then, at some point, DH takes him and he quiets down almost immediately, just unsettled . by 6 he is calm and sucking his fist on DH's lap and by 7 I'm in bed and DS is asleep on DH's lap. This is our routine.

I figure maybe we should just cut out the screaming bit and I don't hold him at all, but honestly, when would I get him awake then? Sounds ridiculous, but I feel I'm doing something with and for him, even though he's crying. It's like with my DD (6yo), if she's crying, it's ME that wants to be there, I want to be there for her. DH has DS all night until midnight so for him to start at 5pm would be a bit unfair, I dunno. Maybe he'd still scream even if DH had him at 5?

I asked at MDC about him only calming for DH and the responses were to just go with what soothes him at the moment. But DH would end up holding him for hours before he slept then (if he actually slept at 7, sometimes he has to settle him for longer). And I'd get no baby time - I feel all DS is learning is that if he's really upset, mommy hands him off and daddy is there for him.

It all sucks and I'm confused.


----------



## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Actually, DH has taken it on as his role, "the settler". Which means that I'm not getting many chances to settle him to the end. Esp at the end of the day cos DH cooks dinner cos I haven't been up to it. But he rushes around to get to DS as soon as possible to take him from me. I said to DH to give me a chance to see it through so he sees that I'm not deserting him and learns I can do it too. He agreed but I don't know if I do. It seems wrong to hold him crying when DH could stop it. So I don't do it for long, just my evening cuddle - which granted, isn't much of a cuddle. I feel like he hates me, but logically, I know that isn't the case. Maybe I make him feel safe enough to off gas? Clutching at straws? Probably.


----------



## Azuralea (Jan 29, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm* 
But why do the other cultures have calm babies (and I've done masses of study, they are as chilled as they say they are) but ours, no matter how closely we mimic that lifestyle, still don't seem to be?

Other PP had great ideas for the rest of it. But just as an FYI, I'm pretty sure this isn't true -- don't hold yourself to a standard that doesn't exist, especially now!


----------



## p1gg1e (Apr 3, 2004)

So sorry!

My youngest is/was vary high needs. She was found to have a gluten/wheat issue ( just cut out gluten to be safe) .

It was hard not to be able to calm her down. but remember that AP doesn't mean that they don't cry just that they cry in loving arms. My first was really easy so this has really thrown me for a loop. Violet is still really high needs but allot less then when she is on gluten.

I went through 3 LC's before I found one that was able to come up with a plan ( one just said reflux , that is most common a food allergy/intolerance







)

Also a good chiro or ND would be a good place to go also to help you in the right direction.

Hope it gets better soon!!


----------



## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

Calm-I've always wondered this too. WHAT are all those mysterious tribes doing differently that their babies are always calm, and quiet? I wore, bf'd, co-slept, co-bathed, co-everything with both of my kids and they've both had bouts of fussiness. DD1 was terrible, very needy, intense, and cried a lot. Plus NO one could hold her but me. That sucked. DD2 is easier, though she did peak at about 10 weeks and has gotten MUCH easier since then. Weeks 8-10 were the WORST. Now, at 3 1/2 months, she is easy as pie, unless she gets gassy. It gets better, mama. Really it does. And if not, there may be other things going on, but hold out for 2-3 more weeks and see if the little one doesn't settle down a bit. It's so hard, I know. I was miserable with dd1. It was so unexpected, I just assumed things would be ok, since I was doing everything 'right' and 'naturally'.


----------



## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm* 
I now have an 8 week old who has been exclusively ap'd that whole time. Babywearing, cosleeping, bfing, you name it, we're on it. However, I feel I've been mislead. I was lead to believe that a baby who is AP'd, worn all day and all the rest of it doesn't cry or get that evening colic thing. Well, DS bloody well does!

First of all:







And secondly: No way! It doesn't prevent it, it's just a better way of reacting to it, in my mind. And maybe it is supposed to lessen it--who knows how much worse it would be otherwise. What I've heard is that some of the AP techniques are the only way that some people could deal with crying babies. It's why those mainstream ways that seem to work like magic for some people don't work for others.

I remember feeling frustrated like this with my first. What was the point of doing all this stuff to meet her needs if she was just going to cry anyway. And people told me, well, you are sitting holding her while she is crying, maybe that is what she needs. Even though we co-slept, my first daughter would cry on the bed between us for awhile before she'd settle down and nurse.

With my second child, I started the shaking and shhing to help settle her on the first day she was born. The first week or so we had some fussy periods or and a few nursing issues. I would swaddle her, turn her on her side, shake her by her shoulder so there was some head jiggling (because I had read this was key) while doing the loud Shhhing noise. After about a week of this, she became a very easygoing baby. She was like a giant slug some days. I don't know if the things I did helped or not, but I feel like it did. It could just be her personality, but she ended up a very boisterous and melodramatic toddler, way more so than my first.


----------



## thebarkingbird (Dec 2, 2005)

whoever told you that children who are AP'd don't/won't cry or get colic was a bit fat liar. sorry if it was someone like your mom or **gasp** me. i think we sometimes overstate the no cry benefits. one of the few blanket statements you can make about children is that they cry and the ones who don't usually have some kind of disorder that i wouldn't wish for.

i have 2 children. i did mostly AP with both but, as AP is truly a lunary (i live in a family where, until very recently mommy couldn't always respond instantly because we needed to keep our apartment and mommy had to work) i felt free to explore some options i find many women overlook. i found out early on that my 4yo enjoys his personal space. my 8mo does not.

maybe borrow a vibrating bouncie seat (you said he likes to bounce) or swing from someone before you invest. try holding baby and if after five minutes or so his crying doesn't slow, place him in the vibrating seat. wait about five minuets to see if his crying is starting to slow. if that doesn't work, pick him up again. some really do like their space at some times. those people who hate being touched all the time started out as babies. i did this w/ my oldest and found that sometimes he wanted mama and sometimes he wanted to sit in the swing by his damn self or we would all pay. i got over feeling rejected when the ungodly screams stopped.

sounds like you got one of those screamers. i do not mean to downplay your situation. its a very tough one. no, you are not imagining things. it does sound like your baby is fussing more than most. and no, you did not do anything wrong. he's got some quirks and it takes alot to figure them out. i must say from experience that caring for a child who's needs are unusual and with a disposition you hadn't imagined builds the most wonderful and valued bonds between parents and babies.


----------



## thebarkingbird (Dec 2, 2005)

also, guard against burnout! yes, sticking a baby in a bed every night until he learns nobody is coming will quiet him but that's about all it will do. i have a few friends who totally did a 180 from a compassionate take on mainstream to CIO several times a day because of burnout. i let my baby cry too long a few times. we recovered. insist upon help. if putting a baby down to cry for five minuets a time or two a week or even a day is what stands between you and putting a baby to cry for hours each night until she gives up or worse, leaving a baby with truly high needs to fuss each night indefinitely then DO IT.

i also see you've identified it as evening colic. you're a step ahead of most parents. you know the pattern. THE ATTACHMENT IS PAYING OFF. now you know what time of day to have your defense strategies in place and about what time it might be over. you know when you may need reinforcements. you know you can spot his quirks and schedules.


----------



## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

I haven't read all responses but probiotics cure colic, not APing.

If he had a traumatic birth and didn't get properly colonized (antibiotics or being held/fed by people other than your boob) ...

Google colic and probiotics.


----------



## One Art (Nov 9, 2005)

No, I don't remember what the remedy was, as it was over a year ago... in any case, the one specifically suited to my dd might not work for your dc. As I understand it, specific homeopathic remedies can be taken for various ailments, but that especially for "larger" complaints, it is essential to get a consultation with a naturopath who can come up with a constitutional remedy that specifically suits that person's needs, in relation to their own unique make-up. Does that make sense? I know sometimes people have a hard time "believing" in remedies, but as I said, the remedy my dd took was amazing and helped the colic immediately.


----------



## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Oh, homeopathy, I am going to do that soon. I thought it was a herbal or something. Thanks.









He started on probiotics but now I need to get a breast pump to get more milk to mix with it. It takes me too long to hand express. I'm on probiotics and his are babybiotics. I believe they will help his gut as he was cut out of me and we had anti's. I was really upset about that, wanting a babe with a naturally colonised gut but I guess it couldn't be helped. Here's hoping it helps!

Thebarkingbird, thanks for your thoughtful ideas. I didnt' know they had a bouncing seat (we thought it would be a good invention actually, or even one an adult sits on that bounces for settling







) but he doesnt' seem to like being in his own space for long. He seems to like it, but he's always lookign for me and takes about 5 minutes before he's getting uncomfortable with it. I prop him up in my mother's place everyday for solo sit time while we talk to him or just each other and he likes to hold my hand while we're physically apart.

I tried to call a LC today but they haven't gotten back. I called two different ones. I found out that a high palate can create feeding issues, which may account for some of the feeding irritability. He seems to have a very high arch palate from what I can see in his mouth and my limited knowledge of it.


----------



## Kessed (Nov 28, 2007)

I think we're missing the community aspect of most other cultures.

I know that when I would be around other moms with young babies and children - my DD was entirely different than when she and I were home. No amount of slinging and breastfeeding or even skin to skin would have the same effect as simply being around other women and their babies.


----------



## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

i agree, i reckon that's key.


----------



## yarngoddess (Dec 27, 2006)

HUGS I REALLY know how you feel. My first DS was a "High Needs" baby, and I had never heard of that or AP or anything even remotely like that. I was following the baby's lead and going on instinct. I thought I was going crazy, having Post Partum Depression, or was just a bad mom. My baby screamed over EVERYTHING, especially over being changed. Diapers or clothes it didn't matter. He would scream like I was litterally hurting him.

He had a screaming "fit" (for lack of a better word) and I swear he was telling me about his rough pregnancy and birth. It was almost like I could hear him in my head, and I KNEW he had to get it out. He screamed for 2 straight hours. It was horrible. My MIL was there (whom I had just met that week) and she was in tears because he was so upset, she kept asking if I wanted her to walk with him, but I felt that he needed to TELL ME.

With this last baby (#4!!!) I found "GRIPE WATER" specifically that one (Wellements) has become my house's MIRACLE CURE. I give the baby gripe water, and will either swaddle or nurse after and he will fall asleep. It's as if his stomach calms down, his brain relaxes, and his little body will become flexible instead of rigid.

Try the gripe water, continue to watch your diet. However be aware that some kids hate a bland diet too! My littlest I have found nurses and sleeps better when I eat a TON of Garlic. He loves the stuff. He also loves it when I eat strong flavor filled, super aromatic foods- mexican and itallian dishes. He seems to crave those "normal" foods in our house, and was angry that I was eating bland foods. You also might want to look at how you are swaddling your little man. My children HATED the triangle swaddle that most people see. I had to buy light weight fleece blankets and "burrito" them like some nurses do at the hospitals. I could try to show you what I mean if you contact me privately. SO- Gripe Water, Swaddle and either nurse or binkey. My FAV binkey is scented to help reduce colic/reflux. It's called Gum Drop Pacifier and it's avalible at two great sites (same name only one is plural! lol) http://www.gumdroppacifier.com and http://www.gumdroppacifiers.com and shop here
If your baby has reflux, and boys really seem to have the silent kind- which is just as bad imho. What you are describing fits PERFECTLY with reflux. Smell his breath when he's fussy- does his breath smell foul? like vomit? like something that's decaying, or even similar to his poop? That is typically signs that you have reflux. There are also Hylands Colic Tablets and can also help tremendously depending on the baby. While I like the colic tablets (it's what helped my first boy) I have found the gripe water to be more effective and to work faster, especially in the little ones.

GERD Resources/Info

http://www.reflux.org/
http://www.webgerd.com/GerdInInfants.htm
http://www.infantrefluxdisease.com/
http://www.askdrsears.com/html/10/T106000.asp

You aren't alone. You aren't going crazy either. There are other's out there. I know you are frustrated with the situation, but think a min about how things were different if you weren't so receptive to your baby's needs. If you were trying to "toughen" him up? How sad and scary would that be. How would HE feel??? My voice of experience is to hang on, and keep doing what IS working for you. If there are certain things that AREN'T working for your family and you, then CHANGE THEM. Really!

I'm sorry that you feel that AP has failed you, and I must tell you that I really don't think that's the situation. I honestly think that you have a baby that's having a hard time adjusting to our world. I think that he's trying desperately to communicate his needs to you, and I think that you are exhausted- and you should be. Being a mom is so hard- and sometimes AP makes things HARDER because it means that you have to re-learn how to deal with stress, drama and a screaming kid all in the same moment. We weren't (not likely) treated this way when we were babies/children, and so our brain jump's to "It's not working" and all the other NEGATIVE thoughts "Just spank her, CIO, cribs, Leaving ALL the time with a babysitter" and it's hard to change (even though we KNOW it's the right thing to do) and it's even harder to change when we have a screaming baby and are having SUPER hormones. HANG IN THERE! I promise, promise promise it will get better, or you will learn to handle him better. It's not AP that's failing- you aren't doing something wrong either. AP isn't a "CURE ALL" kind of life, or a quick fix for having "Perfect" children. AP is more about LOVE, RESPECT, and LISTENING to our INSTINCTS.

I hope something in my MEGA post







will help you, or another mother. HUGS- and more HUGS. I wish I could come over and just help you, pamper YOU because you are working SO hard! PLEASE don't hesitate to PM me or email me! I'm here for you! HANG IN THERE! It WILL get better!


----------



## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

I just wanted to give you an other hug and let you know that AP isn't a fix for anything!

I had 3 calm-ish babies then my fourth was an evening screamer. She was also a big time vomiter of foremilk which I realised was due to oversupply and could slowly be fixed by block-feeding. The latching off and on when feeding combined with me spraying milk everywhere then her vomiting three times a day or more and soaking both of us made our first few months really hard. When the screaming kicked in, I too asked dh what we had done 'wrong'. She didn't like being cuddled in arms, she didn't like the pouch much but she wouldn't be put down. Wrapping in a front cross carry worked for getting about outdoors but not at home.

Sometimes you aren't doing anything wrong: you just doing what you can.


----------



## Peppermint Poppies (Jan 7, 2007)

My baby was a screamer too. He'd cry all day, but at about 2pm, would start screaming, and wouldn't stop until about 9-10pm, every night, for months. It was hell on earth. It turns out he had silent reflux, and treating this helped somewhat, but to be honest, he is still a very unsettled, high-needs baby/toddler.

Things WILL improve. But it might take time. My mum (very AP herself and had 4 children) told me things improve around 12 weeks. It was actually closer to 16 wks for my son, but the point is the same. If you can keep doing what you're doing, get some help and rest, trust your instincts that you are responding to your babies cries the best possible way (even if the crying doesn't stop), and just bide your time as this too will pass.


----------



## RomanGoddess (Mar 16, 2006)

Have not read the other responses but wanted to say that what you describe sounds completely normal for an 8-week old with colic. Lots of young babes have colic, even AP'ed ones. You can try changing your diet but don't be discouraged if it doesn't change anything. He just needs to grow. It should get better in a few weeks.


----------



## thebarkingbird (Dec 2, 2005)

oh yeah! the gripe water! teething tablets and colic tablets are also great. won't knock ya out but calm baby enough that your comfort can help.


----------



## angela40 (Mar 25, 2008)

a few more thoughts... with breastfeeding at that age both my kids definitely got less milk in the evening hours and wanted to nurse constantly prob because of less supply at that time. by that time i had been holding the baby all day and wanted nothing more than to hand her and then him off and get away. since at the time i was on maternity leave and had to start working on a frozen supply i started pumping once after the early 5 am nursing and my dh would give the baby that milk in a bottle while i chopped stuff up and cooked dinner. i don't know about you but i found standing up and chopping very soothing to ME.plus we got to eat real food. then they both would cluster feed until about 11 PM until they got a little older. also found out most babies will stay awake until about that time in the early months before gradually drifting down to an earlier sleep time.
and i also want to say that while both of mine had a fussy time period daily from around 5-12 weeks where they would continually cry i don't think it was colic in that they never cried as if they were in pain like colic babies do. nevertheless it was tremendously hard on me.
with the second i just kept reminding myself that that stage would be over and before i knew it i was making his first birthday cake! however the first few months can seem like they last years like in Star Trek 2 (i'm a fan)- "the minutes can seem like hours and the hours can seem like days". in fact i could do without the first few months and skip to around 6 months when nursing is good and they start some solids... life seems like it gets easier then to me.
and there is nothing wrong with your dh soothing him. especially if you are breastfeeding sometimes there is not much else dh can do so it is great he can do that. in fact later on if you are trying to cut down on nightwakings it will be great if he can soothe him!believe me your baby will still be looking to you for comfort as he grows but it is great dh can comfort him too.
last thought - beware of ppd. and continue getting out of the house- but don't wear yourself out too much!


----------



## Lady Lilya (Jan 27, 2007)

I had one of those too. It is just his temperament, I fear.

I also doubted AP. And myself, since he was my first. And my family doubted AP and me too. Especially DH. That has been the hardest thing for me -- DH thinking I am a bad mother.

The most useful book I found was Raising Your Spirited Child, which talks about different temperamental traits and the issues that arise from them. Some things I can't do much about, but it helps to have an idea what the problem is.

Also, DS was a difficult sleeper because of his personality. Sleepless In America was a HUGE help. It reduced his evening fussiness very much, because the cause of it was that he was running out of coping-energy by the end of the day. He still does sometimes, but it can be clearly traced to the events of the day or a disruption in his sleep shortly before the fussiness came on.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm* 
Has anyone done daily skin to skin contact for long stretches and found that helps? Its the only thing I don't do, other than a daily bath with him and he sleeps on my boob as a pillow. It's winter here, otherwise I'd have us both nekkid all day.

Skin contact didn't help us. It was August, so we had a lot of that. Still nothing but screaming.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hibana* 







Any possibility your wee one is having issues with something in your diet?

We found and eliminated dietary sensitivities. The improvement was detectable, but it didn't make him stop screaming all the time.

The only thing that seems to help is time. As he gets older and older, he gets happier and happier.

That is not to say to stop trying to comfort him. I think it means something to him to know that you are there and trying.

Actually, a huge load of stress came off of DH and me when we finally, at about 9 weeks, resigned ourselves to the crying. Before, we thought that we were doing something wrong if he was crying, and were agonizing over trying to stop it. Once we accepted that SOME crying was inevitable, it allowed us to approach each particular bout of crying as not being the end of the world. The pressure for perfection was off.

We went through a time where we, same as you, fell into a routine where DH would comfort him whenever he was there. I had no confidence in my ability to soothe DS. I started to fear being alone with him.

Additional notes:

He didn't like being worn around the house. He was OK with it for about an hour if I went out, because there was new stuff to look at and it distracted him. You should count yourself lucky yours will sleep in the sling.

DS's birth was anything but traumatic. It was as peaceful as they come. Uneventful homebirth. But he was born instantly at odds with the world. Immediately he disapproved of everything.

I had a super easy pregnancy too.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
have you tried taking baby to the chiropractor?

The baby could be crying from a headache or a backache, or just "not feel right" because things are "out of whack" with his spine.

Yeah, I tried this too. Didn't seem to make a difference.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pigpokey* 
I haven't read all responses but probiotics cure colic, not APing.

If he had a traumatic birth and didn't get properly colonized (antibiotics or being held/fed by people other than your boob) ...

Google colic and probiotics.

Didn't help us. Perhaps they stop the crying of SOME babies, who are crying do to that particular lack.

----

OP, you said he has a very highly arched pallet. Has he been checked for tongue tie? They usually go together. And sinus issues too. I have running on my father's side a highly arched pallet and sinus issues. DS was born with TT, which we fixed in a hurry at a few days old. Then he nursed perfectly fine until about 8 weeks when my OALD started being a problem.

----

To the OP: it DOES get a lot better. At first I thought DS was cursed with a personality such that he would be miserable his whole life. Now he crawls around the house and things the cats and all the knobs and handles are funny. He pulls up on me, and cuddles. I thought he would never cuddle. But slowly he has become affectionate. (Just something to look forward to.)

Really, it was just something to get through. I have heard parents say they didn't like the baby stage, but I think some KIDS don't like the baby stage.

Also BEWARE of attributing crying and arching to a physical problem that doesn't exist. DS had nothing wrong with him physically, but every spectator was diagnosing him with things like gas and reflux and wanting to medicate him. The truth was, the pain was in his MIND. He arched the same way from mental suffering as he would from physical suffering.


----------



## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

I'm highly suspicious that the people observing the tribes tended to see what they wanted to see.

Or simply weren't there during the birth of a colicky newborn - if you think about it, if maybe 1 in 5 (statistic not a real one, just making it up to think about it) kids is a crier, and someone is staying with a small tribe for half a year, they could totally just not be there for the birth of one.

Hang in there OP.


----------



## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

you gals are the best. Thank you. I love this thread.









Well, guess what, I resigned myself last night to just doing the "routine" and he started to cry, on cue. I took him to the rocking chair and popped him on the boob (my first port of call) and he comfort sucked to sleep!

WOOT

That hasn't happened in weeks.

Then he woke with DD's bedtime chaos and stayed awake for DH until his 10pm feed. Oh well, can't win them all.

So the plan is, wait it out and do what it takes to get through and comfort him - if no comfort is to be had, then just hold him patiently as he lets it out. In the meantime, see the LC to rule out palate and feeding problems. Ok, I can do this.

BTW, the counsellor said they cluster feed usually one time per day, and mine picked the predawn hours. I heard about frequent feeds at "colic hour" so tried that but as mentioned, wouldn't take the boob (until last night). I hope one day he flips his cluster feeds to a more reasonable hour!

Yarngoddess, thank you for all those links and effort. I really appreciate it. Actually, I want to do a special thanks for all of you, so pretend I did.


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

It's good to see you around again! And congratulations on your new little one!

I strongly believe that holding a crying baby helps him feel supported and loved, even if it takes a looong time to soothe him. One of my daughters had some hard times like this, and I remember reading a lot of the same stuff you mentioned -- about how AP'd children don't cry, and they're never aggressive as toddlers, and they're so much more sensitive and empathetic toward others than all those "mainstream" kids.

Honestly? I think a lot of that is just a backlash against all the mainstream [email protected] we hear about how we're "spoiling" our babies with all the holding and affection. Neither extreme is accurate in my opinion.

I believe in AP -- but not because I assume it's going to give me an "easy" or "well-behaved" child. I believe in AP, because I see that my children feel it's worth their while to communicate with me and their dad. They haven't given up on trying to change situations they're unhappy with.

In one sense, the "not giving up" quality is bound to get them labeled "poorly behaved" by some people who prefer more subdued and broken kids.

You're doing great! In my experience, intense babies get happier as they become able to move around more autonomously and get into stuff.


----------



## mama41 (Jan 23, 2008)

My dad has a phrase I love: Survival of the Parent. That's the first rule.

If the AP and colic together are making you crazy, please, take breaks and modify. Even if the screaming doesn't drive you over the edge -- I was strangely calm about it -- it's a real source of tension, and it sucks up a lot of parental energy. So go easy on yourself and don't put yourself out to do things just because they're in the AP handbook. You love the child, you're there, you're holding and loving and feeding and loving and changing and loving the baby, that'll do it. Just love that baby, keep him alive, and keep you sane, and you'll all be fine.


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

The baby gets a stuffy nose?

And colic?

I'm thinking dairy, wheat and/or soy.

Eliminate these foods and I bet you'll have a new child.


----------



## ErinBird (Dec 5, 2005)

I have practiced attachment parenting with my DD since birth. She is just a very intense person and has been since she was born. She simply seems to feel all of her emotions in a stronger then average way and reacts accordingly.

The benefit of AP to me and my daughter has been that she and I are able to communicate what is wrong when she starts getting wigged out and I can bring her to a safer place.


----------



## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Well, something may have showed itself.

I didn't eat dairy (never really liked it), but certainly gave it up and all its derivatives since DS's birth. A week or so ago I took dairy up again, slowly. Twice I had icecream and he was unsettled after it, but not colic - reflux. One night he kept burping up acid and being unsettled and snuffly and I had reflux too! I hadn't had it since pregnancy, in fact, I don't get it other than pregancy. So I thought that was weird. So last night I gave him slippery elm powder as it is a natural reflux helper and it calmed him. So he could very well be a reflux baby. So I'm going off dairy again and I'll see if it helps. His snuffles never reallly left, but they do have days where they are worse.

I am "calm" (no pun intended) during his crying, and oddly, it doesn't bother me as much as it could. In fact, I worry about my sense of detachment from it really, as other times of the day his crying can really unnerve me. I think it's resignation to that time of day being rather normal for crying. I found this research paper very helpful and interesting:

Journal of sleep research

So regardless of what I do, his crying is going to diminish and finally end, sometime around the three/four month mark. So I hold him calmly through it, and it seems to be getting shorter and shorter and his desire to breastfeed instead of crying at those times becoming greater and greater.

As for his fussiness in general, it seems to be mostly after feeds, which I interpreted as tired signs but it could be this reflux I'm picking up on now. I'll keep treating it naturally unless it flares in a more profound way.

Thanks for the support everyone. (and hello to you too, mammal!







)


----------



## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm* 
Thanks for the support everyone. (and hello to you too, mammal!







)

It *is* great to see you again! And I'm glad you seem to be getting some answers.

With dd1, I never really got an answer while it was happening (but I didn't try an elimination diet or anything). It passed as she got more active.

Then a few years later, I read _The Continuum Concept_, and realized that while I parented similarly to the Yequana in the continuous holding, co-sleeping, and baby-led breastfeeding department, I was very sedentary during those early months. When she was calm (during most of the day), I'd sit in a chair and hold her, read books, and latch her on when she rooted for the breast ...

Dh got grossed out when he came home one day and several wet diapers (I used disposables exclusively at first), were neatly rolled up, sitting in a row on the floor by my feet.







So I started trying to keep on top of some stuff a little better. I guess at first I was resting up from a difficult labor and episiotomy.
And then later I was resting up from the rough evenings, which may have ensued from the inactive days!

I know things were much easier with dd2, which may be partly due to my being up and about more with my older dd, with dd2 riding along on me in the sling. But I see that you have an older child, too, and it sounds like you've been pretty active, so that's probably not it for you. I'm glad eliminating dairy seems to be helping!


----------



## bits and bobs (Apr 7, 2008)

Quote:

Ultimately, I'm seeing most of the benefit of the AP approach as they get older...*they just have a very different loving manner to them than other kids* - all of their caregivers and teachers have commented on it. So I definitely feel it was worth it. Despite all the crying - mine and theirs LOL
I just wonder how you can attribute this to them being AP-ed?

I get comments on my kids, not all the time, but still enough...and they were just plain ole loved and cared for, not by the book AP-ed.


----------



## flapjack (Mar 15, 2005)

My high-needs, screaming baby just walked into the room, asked what AP was, had a quick discussion about it and walked off. He's 9 now, and while he's still a challenge to parent and particularly has difficulty getting to sleep, the nightmare of his early months seems light years away. I'm not going to give you any guarantees about when and where, but at some point the screaming will stop. If you do decide to continue with the elimination diet, be careful to get enough calcium, okay?
I did have one other suggestion though- my gut instinct is to ask you to tell him his birth story. It sounds like you both have a lot of unresolved issues surrounding his birth, and you talking to him about it is a good place to start the healing.


----------



## monkey's mom (Jul 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bits and bobs* 
I get comments on my kids, not all the time, but still enough...and they were just plain ole loved and cared for, not by the book AP-ed.

There really isn't a check-list or "by the book" to Attachment Parenting. It's really just about being tuned into your kids and responding to their needs as much as is possible. For many babies, those are the things that they want/need. For some, it's different. And for some, despite those "AP" practices, there's still the parental tuned in/response factor that seems to be missing.

So I'm imagining that even though you might not have breastfed or co-slept or worn a sling, you probably responded to your children with a lot of sensitivity and love. And that's huge, you know?


----------



## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

It's things like THIS that now make me furious! It's all crap, this does NOT happen if you hold your child all the time.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I just want to chime in that I've AP'd (never called it that - never even heard of it until dd was 2) all my kids. DS1 was pretty laidback and mellow almost all the time. DS2 was the easiest baby I've ever seen, hands down. DD was miserable. She didn't settle to nurse (when she quit nursing at 21 months, my supply _still_ hadn't settled down, and I was still prone to leaks, due to her totally erratic feedings). She didn't settle to sleep. She cried for 3-4 straight hours every single night (roughly 11pm - 3am). She hated when I rocked her. She hated when I sang to her. She refused to nurse unless she was practically starving.

She's just not a calm person - not at all. The book about raising your spirited child hit home in a lot of ways. She's also very, very sensitive, and...she's just...dd.

I adore dd. She's one of the neatest kids I've ever met. She's also very challenging, and if I were to AP her by the checklist, she'd fight me every step of the way. I let her set the boundaries, and they're a lot farther out than I would ever have expected.


----------



## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

How did you get her to sleep? DS just gets tired and then screams, whether in the sling or not. He sucks on my finger so I got him a dummy but he won't have a bar of that. But sucking on my finger will eventually, in the right atmosphere, lull him to sleep. We basically bounce with him on the fit ball until he is so exhausted he passes out. Not really a pleasant way for any of us. Esp when that happens for 4 to 5 naps a day and one bedtime.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

We never found anything that got her to sleep. DH used to take her downstairs and bounce her on this knee in front of the tv. I was recovering from a c-section, and was way too exhausted to even begin to cope with her for all those hours. The tv and bouncing didn't help, though - they just helped dh feel as though he was actually _doing_ something.

ETA: I was going to avoid this, but I should mention that we found something that worked. I won't go into details here, because I've been accused of advocating CIO before, and I'm not going there again.


----------



## Lady Lilya (Jan 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm* 
It's things like THIS that now make me furious! It's all crap, this does NOT happen if you hold your child all the time.

Yeah.

_Because of the child's need to participate, it is also important that caretakers not just sit and gaze at the baby or continually ask what the baby wants, but lead active lives themselves. Occasionally one cannot resist giving a baby a flurry of kisses; however, a baby who is programmed to watch you living your busy life is confused and frustrated when you spend your time watching him living his. A baby who is in the business of absorbing what life is like as lived by you is thrown into confusion if you ask him to direct it._

This was what I expected. Just to strap him on and go about my duties, pausing to nurse him and change his diaper. What I got was a baby that was in agony unless he was the center of focus and I had to tag along while he lived HIS life. He tolerated nothing short of entertaining him. He did not have any interest in watching me do housework or cooking, which I needed to get done. He wasn't content just to be ON me.

_The second essential function of the in-arms experience appears to have escaped the notice of everyone (including me, until the mid-1960s). It is to provide babies with a means of discharging their excess energy until they are able to do so themselves. In the months before being able to get around under their own power, babies accumulate energy from the absorption of food and sunshine. A baby therefore needs constant contact with the energy field of an active person, who can discharge the unused excess for each of them. This explains why the Yequana babies were so strangely relaxed - why they did not stiffen, kick, arch, or flex to relieve themselves of an uncomfortable accumulation of energy._

HA HA HA HA HA. I was in the best shape of my life in the first few months of DS's life, because of the constant aerobic exercise of trying to calm him. Walking without stopping for hours a day, plus tons of vigorous jiggling and rocking. I expended more energy than I thought 10 people could have. Yet DS still SEETHED with energy, and squirmed and kicked and fought and stiffened and arched.


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

You might try homeopathy. Finding the right remedy or chiro could really help.

I had to eliminate cinnamon even from my diet. It takes about 2-6 weeks to remove all dairy proteins from the system. I would avoid that and wheat. Wheat is the hardest, imo. Here is a link about hidden dairy sources:
http://www.kellymom.com/store/handou...dden-dairy.pdf

Our son would cry so hard, until I was able to move a big air bubble burp out of him. I would rotate him back and forth on different shoulders, higher and lower, and over my thigh, in order to put pressure on his belly to help expel the gas. All the while patting firmly and lightly bouncing him to move the air along. Immediately after he would burp, he would settle right to sleep. Dairy was the worst offender. Onions and cabbage, broccoli products in *my* diet also aggravated his system.

You might also try "Gripe Water" which helped when I realized I had eaten something bothersome.

A friend's baby didn't like the over-stimulation and required a pitch black room. So, she would lie down in a closed closet with her baby and he would settle most quickly. To this day, at 8, he requires a quiet, dark room to fall asleep. She'd coo or shussh, but not physically touch him. Our son needed tight pressure in a sling to settle, and motion. So, keep trying, the secret varies according to the baby.

Pat


----------



## ComaWhite (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm* 
It's things like THIS that now make me furious! It's all crap, this does NOT happen if you hold your child all the time.

You have to realize that that book was written by a women who HAS NO CHILDREN. Honestly, isnt everyone the expert before they actually have kids?... and then a lot of people are still "experts" even after their first.. its not until the second child is born until most mothers realize that their going to have to trash their rigid ideals just to get through the day.

Maybe just look at it a different way. Maybe his crying is not something that needs to be "fixed" (nobody I know is a happy person 100% of the time; why do we expect this of babies?)... I really dont think the job of a mother is to hover and make sure her baby never experiences a split second of discontent. Life happens; just do your best.


----------



## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm* 
I now have an 8 week old who has been exclusively ap'd that whole time. Babywearing, cosleeping, bfing, you name it, we're on it. However, I feel I've been mislead. I was lead to believe that a baby who is AP'd, worn all day and all the rest of it doesn't cry or get that evening colic thing. Well, DS bloody well does!
But why do the other cultures have calm babies (and I've done masses of study, they are as chilled as they say they are) but ours, no matter how closely we mimic that lifestyle, still don't seem to be?
Are babies in our culture just gonna wail at this age

Nope. I did all the above with my girls and they were never colicky, they were great babies, I mean great babies. Considering that I was going very much against the grain(as in everything that "my people" didn't do) with them everyone told me they would be terrible, rotten spoiled cry babies. I was talked about and put down for everything from extended nursing to delayed solids and despite the dire predictions they were wonderful babies and toddlers. I wish I had some advice but just wanted to say stay strong because it does work out and for some of us it works from the very beginning.


----------



## Collinsky (Jul 7, 2004)

Mama!! My third child was like this... EBF, cosleeping, in arms, the whole bit. Just like my two happy, peaceful babies had been. And he had the added benefit of having a completely serene, stress-free birth and being born into the best postpartum situation I could imagine. Only, he cried. I eliminated stuff from my diet and it didn't make a difference. (Not that one shouldn't try it - for some it works miracles!) We cycled through all the things it could possibly be, and if NOTHING worked, I just went with Solter. Obviously, little man needed to cry. So I held him, and tried to be present to him, talked to him, but didn't make it my job to get him to stop - because he wouldn't have anyway. I don't necessarily agree with her on "overnursing" but it was moot because A wouldn't take the breast anyway.

As for why it's not "like it is" for other cultures that we're trying to emulate a bit with our parenting... it can be any number of things. Could be electric lighting. Could be EMFs from stupid computers and wires all around us. Could be because we don't live in communal villages. Could be some effect of collective consciousness.

And also, not every culture has "peaceful" babies. I don't remember which it is, but they have a belief that some babies have two souls fighting for their body, and they cry for the first 3-4 months until one soul wins and the other leaves. So obviously despite our romanticism, colic happens in other places too. Probably not as prevalent, of course, but I think we sell ourselves short to say that we must be doing something horribly wrong if our baby cries.

The good news is it ends. He's 2 now, and those nights (and days) are a distant memory. I think that some little ones just have a special spark inside them. My son and I have a sweet unique bond... I don't love him more than my other children (of course!), but there is something there that is worth every minute of every week I spent exhausted and crying, shell-shocked and desperate for some relief.

Practically speaking, I wish I had learned about The Happiest Baby on the Block when he was a newborn - I tried swaddling, but gave it up after two seconds... but I think that doing all the steps and swaddling might have been helpful.


----------



## thebarkingbird (Dec 2, 2005)

i think my mother had a special attachment to me because i cried so much. as i hear it, i didn't shut up for the first three months. seriously. people stopped visiting. one day it petered off and my mother got some rest. the one upside for her was that she got to feel a really big sense of accomplishment. she made it! she said it was just about keeping her eyes on the prize. she knew it would get better one day and when it did she was truly proud of having stuck it out and not descended into sleep deprived madness. she felt like such a good mother for having come out on the other side. i think you will too.


----------



## sharr610 (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EFmom* 
I don't believe for a minute that babies in some other cultures are always calm. Some of them are, but all of them? Not buying it for a second.

I see AP as a toolkit. Some of it works for some kids. Some of it doesn't work for other kids. I take what's useful and leave the rest. I've seen plenty of AP'd kids with great, easygoing personalities, and some that are extremely trying.

Being in one of those other cultures, they are not always calm. Granted, due to the wearing, bfing, co sleeping, etc, there are fewer, for sure, that are colicky for some unknown reason, but they still exist, believe me...and thats when you see the mamas here eventually turn off the AP, set the baby on the ground and walk away for a few minutes, b/c even they can't handle it.








to you. I'm sorry you are having to go through it. hang in there mama.


----------



## 2 in August (Jan 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EFmom* 
I don't believe for a minute that babies in some other cultures are always calm. Some of them are, but all of them? Not buying it for a second.

I see AP as a toolkit. Some of it works for some kids. Some of it doesn't work for other kids. I take what's useful and leave the rest. I've seen plenty of AP'd kids with great, easygoing personalities, and some that are extremely trying.

ITA!!! Both my kids were held 20+ hours a day (seriously) I nursed both while going to the bathroom. They were both high needs babies but for different reasons. Dd is almost 7 now and is still high needs, gets easily overwhelmed, cries at the drop of a hat, you get the idea. Ds is almost 2 and is far more easy going, but still doesn't sleep through the night. Sleeps on my lap for the 2nd half of every night. I have aquaintances who sleep train their 3mo babies and have kids that sleep through the night because they let them cio. I refuse to do cio (both my kids don't self calm anyway, they will cry till they make themselves sick) and I'm stuck with a 22mo who won't sleep through the night. And when I try to advocate against cio, the other moms just look at me like I'm crazy because they are sleeping and I'm not. Whatever, I just don't talk about it anymore. I meet my kids' needs and while I cringe at their cio stories, I just don't say anything anymore.


----------



## Papooses (Dec 20, 2006)

I appologize in advance if this has already been mentioned, but it's something I have come to learn the hard way.... When you have tried everything -- you've used all the "tools" to help calm baby & have tried to account for diet, etc. -- sometimes it really just down to a simple fact that all humans have feelings & deserve the right to express them









Calmness is a good goal, don't get me wrong, but we experience a very broad spectrum of emotions. Sometimes our emotions are unpleasant. Sometimes the goal should be to reach a calm state, but sometimes the goal should simply be to accept the extreme emotions.

They are part of life. It can be more damaging to baby & yourself to try to avoid or prevent or remove the expression of strong feelings. Sometimes we adults just need to scream & cry for a few days. Too often we refuse to allow ourselves this right. We should. Our babies should be afforded this "privilage" when they need it too.

Some of us need to be explosive more often than others or for longer periods of time for others. Sometimes the root isn't as important as the acknowledgement that as humans we do have a bit of an animalistic need to just scream & roar! Sometimes just letting hte screaming & roaring happen is enough to help it diminish.

Not always. But, I think too many of us get caught up in the ideal of constant happiness. So, I'm not saying don't try for that goal of happiness & contentment, but ignoring the inherent existence of the opposite is not healthy either.

Many people grow to suffer severe anxiety as a result from not being allowed to feel or express these unpleasant emotions. Crying & screaming can be painful to others, sure, but denying that part of the human existence can be just as traumatic for the baby as being left to cry & scream all alone without mama's reassuring presence.

Mama deserves to give herself a break sometimes & baby deserves to just feel sad or pissed off sometimes. Better, I think, to grow up feeling OK just as we are than to develop a thought pattern that we can only accept ourselves at our happiest.


----------



## blizzard_babe (Feb 14, 2007)

I'm in a similar position with my almost-5-week-old DS. While we're not 100% co-sleeping (I need a few hours to myself every night, but he spends probably 50-75% of the night snuggled up to my boob), he's nearly always in-arms or worn (although he's not a huge fan of being worn unless he's in a very specific mood) when awake, and sometimes when asleep, etc, etc, etc.

He still cries a lot. Is my parenting style a failure? I don't think so. Instead, I wonder how much worse it'd be if I WEREN'T responding to his needs the way that I am. I can easily imagine this kid working himself up and staying there for HOURS. He's nothing if not intense... and persistent. I hold him and bounce him and love him and talk to him while he has his fussy time, then we take a bath in the big tub and he's the happy baby you can see in the first pic on the link in my signature.

I'm an intense person who needs frequent emotional release, and I've been that way, according to my parents, since infancy. It's entirely possible that my son inherited that from me.


----------



## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Just saw this thread and wanted to send you a big hug.








:

I'll be back later when I can read the progression and see if I have anything to add.

much love!


----------



## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Quote:

I don't necessarily agree with her on "overnursing" but it was moot because A wouldn't take the breast anyway.
I like Solter, but this miffed me also, when she was on about overnursing them and what not.

Quote:

As for why it's not "like it is" for other cultures that we're trying to emulate a bit with our parenting... it can be any number of things. Could be electric lighting. Could be EMFs from stupid computers and wires all around us. Could be because we don't live in communal villages. Could be some effect of collective consciousness.
Very good points. There are many differences, not just keeping baby attached, and I forget that. I mean, diet alone in the Yequana was so simple as to be flagrantly boring.

Well, I've done a lot of analysing recently and have come to the conclusion that he really is just tired and I can't put him to sleep. He wants to nurse, can't cos he doesn't want milk, freaks out, rinse repeat. When he wakes, before he's tired, he is so contented and happy and very forward in development, it's just great. But come fatigue signs and it all goes downhill until he is literally clawing at me (I have the scratched chest as testament, his nails grow so FAST!). So I'm implenting a "naptime routine". *gag*, BUT, I think if I keep consistent instead of this "fly by the seat of ya pants bubba and sleep wherever we are" carp, he might have a chance of putting two and two together and nodding off without requiring me to bounce us to the moon. I can't keep him slung through 3 of his 4 naps anymore though, my body is wrecked from that. One slung nap a day is all. But in general, I feel if I loosen this grip on "firm, unflappable physical attachment or it's emotional damage!" then I'll get somewhere (and not into the looney bin, which is where this current method was headed). I am learning to listen to him, instead of my checklist of AP requirements.

I learned of the many cultures that are AP and put their baby into a hammock or on to a pile of leaves for naps. I distrust my own culture and many others truth be told, but I must admit, hearing APers put their babies down now and again seems right to me. Overnight, I don't agree and it's still seems only our culture that does that so effectively. But for naps, well heck, I'm not a berry picking Amazon mama (much as I'd LOVE to be), I'm more sedentary and I have to acknowledge my limits. 12 hours a day slinging and pacing and bouncing is NOT fun nor fair on either of us.

I'm also hiring a bouncing baby hammock (those ones on a spring). I've heard they're good for motion junkies.

Hey Art







. Good to see you. Sorry I've been so AWOL. I hope your crew is well and happy!


----------



## Jennifer Z (Sep 15, 2002)

For never ending bouncing a yoga ball helps. (one of those big balls you use for yoga or birthing or physical therapy). I had a big ball that I let enough air out of to keep my balance better (a big clutz here) and used it to just bounce and bounce until the end of time.

I seriously think it is temperment, and so far, both of mine have it. They are wholly different kids, but both very intense in their own ways. I am a huge gentle discipline advocate, but people that don't have kids with high need temperments just make me want to do violence. seriously. Unless you have gone through the fire, you just have no idea.

BTW, both of mine ended up sensory seeking. My son, to a diagnosable level, my daughter, just a very high needs typically developing kid.


----------



## fairejour (Apr 15, 2004)

I don't have a problem with the word "routine". As long as you are following your baby's cues and needs, there is nothing wrong with it. My daughter fell into a pattern by about 3 months old, and it was very helpful. I could tell that she was going to be tired before it got to the point where she was too tired to sleep.


----------



## Lady Lilya (Jan 27, 2007)

DS only sensory-seeks when he is overtired. He gets tense and feels like it is not safe to relax, so his body tries to keep him awake by sensory seeking. It disappears when he is well rested (which means sticking to the routine for a while).


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I'm curious how many of the sensory seeking babies were exposed to antibiotics just before or just after birth? Our son is sensory seeking and was given antibiotics immediately after birth. Obviously, group-B strep mamas and all c-sections were...

There was a study done about it: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...&postcount=240

And allergy issues often coincide with antibiotic administration at birth due to altering the developing gut flora. We had/have that too...

Pat


----------



## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Interesting info, Pat. Totally probable. DD stayed sensitive and has some sensory integration issues, but I have been able to help her with most of those things eventually, and fears and so forth. She has allergies, that's for sure, hence why I'll be bfing ds for a long time and introducing solids slowly and at a late date.

Not coming out via the birth canal alone is a drawback, even if antibios weren't invented because the baby doesn't get exposed to the gut flora triggers there and doesn't get the "squeeze", which of its many uses, realigning the spine after labour is its most important one. Ds was pushed against my obstruction (Bandle's ring) for 12 hours, and didn't get "nature's readjustment" of the birth canal's three point turn. If a woman has a _scheduled_ c-section and the baby doesn't go through labour, she will avoid this problem, but she'll still have all the gut flora issues.

Vaginal birth is so important. He and I are both on pro-bios and of course breast milk is full of them. I hope he heals.


----------



## Lady Lilya (Jan 27, 2007)

Not antibiotics in our case. DS and I both have never had any.

And he had the most uneventful and gentle birth possible.

He was born intense.


----------



## klg47 (May 20, 2003)

I only read page 1. . .
I'd chalk it up to the baby's personality, rather than your stress or lack thereof or our culture. Despite HUGE stresses in my life, including stresses at home, none of my three kids were every fussy/criers. Now, they will certainly cry if I try to leave them alone (like in a highchair while I'm making dinner), but the second I pick them up, they're fine. I'm not trying to brag or minimize your problems; just saying don't blame it on yourself or any stress you might be having -- it's probably just their personality.


----------

