# Can Pro lifers talk about why we believe it's a baby?



## oatmeal (Nov 15, 2002)

I may bring down the fires of hell, but I would like to muse some of the ideas out there from my fellow pro lifers on why, you personally, believe that the baby is a baby at the moment of conception.

I believe that the *intent* inherent in the 2 cells that merge as one comes from the life energy of the universe, which does presuppose a person's existence. I also believe that people chose to enter this world on a physical realm, through the parents they chose, at the time they chose. At the moment the two cells fuse I believe that human being's intention, with the intention of the universe, makes them a real being with spiritual consciousness. I also believe at that moment a woman becomes a mother... and as that being's parent, he is or her protector.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

I'd love to read the opinions. So, you believe it is a baby *before* implanting?


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## oatmeal (Nov 15, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by TiredX2_
*I'd love to read the opinions. So, you believe it is a baby *before* implanting?*
Yes, at the moment of conception.

Looks like either the one other pro life person on this board is afraid to respond or just doesn't care to.

I'ts lonely being the minority!:LOL


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

You know what would be one step towards me accepting a pre-viable fetus as a baby?

If the insurance you can get through the Knights of Columbus (Catholic Fraternal organization) would provide for burials of fetuses (I can't remember if they pay out at 20, 22 or 24 weeks). Smacks of hypocracy to me.

This is not an attack, it just really disturbed me when DH & I were discussing our insurance options (this was about 5-6 years ago).


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## MaryKate (Dec 6, 2003)

Deleted


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

MaryKate---

Glad you've decided to test the waters over here again.

That poem doesn't really touch on the idea that life begins at *conception* though


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## MaryKate (Dec 6, 2003)

Deleted


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## Al Dente (Jan 8, 2004)

Quote:

Yes, at the moment of conception.Looks like either the one other pro life person on this board is afraid to respond or just doesn't care to.

:LOL! I think there are a few more pro life people on this board than you think.









Well, personally, I do believe life begins at conception. _Psalm 139:13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb._ To me, that verse and others mean that God planned every small detail, brought the egg and sperm together, and created a person. I can't put an arbitrary starting point on this miracle, such as 'life begins when the heart starts beating, or when the baby can live outside the womb'. It's planned from start to finish. That might sound simplistic, and I can understand why people have trouble with "life begins at conception" concept...but that's why I believe it.









Rachel


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## arthead (Nov 25, 2003)

When do you believe that the SOUL enters the fetus'/baby's body? (curiousity only question - i enjoy the idea that all people have differing belief systems, so, NO, not bait







)


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## MaryKate (Dec 6, 2003)

RacheePoo-























I believe the soul is always there from the very begining.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

:

I believe a persons a person no matter how small. Just because they haven't implanted doesn't make them any less valuble. They are just hanging out in a different place. My friend did IVF and she prayed for her babies every day of the 5 years they were in the deep freeze (all 4 cells of them) and then morned the 7 that didn't attatch and believes she will meet them in heaven. As soon as the egg and sperm join. She had also made plans t put them up for adoption if for some reason she didn't put them all in. You don't adopt tissues. I htink Gods hand is in every step of a persons journey through life. Including thier first few days.

And I belive our souls are there every step of the way.


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## feebeeglee (Nov 30, 2002)

nak

I believe that life begins at conception, pretty much as soon as the outer membrane of the egg solidifies and no other sperm can get in. i also believe that the soul is present from conception onward.

I have always had a problem with the idea that 'viability' determines personhood... a baby born 50 years ago at 26 weeks would undoubtedly have died whereas one born today at that gestational age has a decent chance for survival. So does that mean that 50 years from now when babies can survive born at say 18 weeks gestation they will be people then but they are not now? How does that work? It seems like a pretty tenuous and variable thing to base personhood on IMO


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

I believe that the essence of a person is created at conception, but what we call 'spirit' is a very mysterious thing and can't be pinpointed or located to be in any one spot at one time... but I have toyed with the idea that 'Spirit' is something we develop over a lifetime/lifetimes, and so it is possible for some to be more developed/evolved in Spirit than others.
Another idea I have considered is the fact that so many embryos/fertilized eggs are created for scientific purposes or for in vitro fertilization....so where is the life potential of these? Are they less 'alive' because they are not inside a womb?
Also, the majority of miscarriages occur because of serious defects in the baby.
Far more miscarriages occur than abortions.
The whole question starts to become very difficult for puny mortals to understand when we start to consider all the human lives that are terminated prematurely, and how all this fits in the great tapestry of life, the Whole, or what some would call God's plan.

Actually, I think this whole thread belongs in spirituality.


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## anothermama (Nov 11, 2003)

I am pro life but I don't believe life happens at the moment of conception. However, I do believe that by the time pregnancy is able to be determined, there are enough things (heartbeat, nerves developed) that make it a life.


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## pammysue (Jan 24, 2004)

_Psalm 139
13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 *your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.*_ NIV

ITA with RacheePoo









So, yes I believe life begins at conception, not implantation or any later time and I believe the soul is present from conception. God knew us and had all of our days ordained long before our conception.


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## Bladestar5 (Jan 5, 2003)

ITA Pammysue.

I KNOW life begins before conception, just as I knew Marc's sister would miscarry a seemingly healthy pregnancy, how the guy I went to school with would die in a war several years before war broke out.


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## oatmeal (Nov 15, 2002)

Not to bash those of you who feel the bible is literal, I don't believe the way I do because of the bible.

I know our souls are immortal. I know we exist in another plane before we incarnate in this physical realm on earth. AS I explained in the OP, I feel that we choose those who we come through before we are ever even conceived in the physical realm.

I believe that when the two cell unite in that first instant, our soul inhabits that form.

Therefore, I believe that artificially terminating that life at any point is murder.


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## lula (Feb 26, 2003)

I believe that life begins at conception. At conception I would not really consider the life a baby, I would consider it a person, a being; but not a baby. I see the baby definition as more of a stage of life thing that is somewhat subjective. I think that because the two successfully joined cells have the destiny to become a baby, a toddler, an adult etc that it (for lack of knowing he or she) is as important to protect as a 45 yr. old CEO of a fortune 500 company. I am pro-life not merely because I believe in protecting babies but because I believe that even the life at the state of two fused cells should be protected and respected as a person, an individual being.


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

: as I type this.......

I want to share a (my) story with you.This is for those of you who question the spirituality of conception.

My husband and I suffered through infertility for 5 years. Finally, basically at the end of our rope did we venture in to th expertise of the medical community. We went for test after test. At this point we had just said,"Ok now we need to take a break here.Lets stop focusing so much on having a baby,let the doctors do thier thing,in the meantime lets go on a holiday ect.."
And so we started life again an just a couple. Not a couple trying desperately to have a baby.

One night we made love,and let me tell you,it was the most _amazing_,uplifting experience I have ever encountered!And I am not talking about the love making its self. It was like our entire bedroom had a soft,glowing light,and our bodies and spirits opened up to the entire universe. We both felt euphoria.
It truely was inexplicable(sp?).We were at that time though ,none the wiser.

FF to 6 weeks. We had had plenty of sex between then,and I was even losing weight. One day IT HIT ME! Id better check when my last period was. Believe me I had always kept track since TTC but then we had decided to stop for the sake of our sanity during this break.
I took a pregnancy test. 4 times to be exact, and went to the doc for a comfirmation. Nobody had to tell us when the baby was concieved,we knew the instant it sunk in that we really were. That night will always be told of the night our *twins!* were concieved.

I thank my children everyday for chosing me to be thier mom.


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## Paxetbonum (Jul 16, 2003)

That is so beautiful!

How awesome that the procreative and unitive were aspects of intercourse were so beautifully united for you. And way to go for just letting divine timing take its course. Lots of folks would have been trying invitro already!

I too beleive that life begins at the moment of conception. I belive it because of religious beleifs but even if I had no religion I would still beleive it. It just seems to fit with the ways of nature and our beautiful universe.

And don't you think its alot cooler to think that when you are involved in the marital act, that its not some random thing that is just for kicks, but something that is intimatley bound to the creative rythyms of the universe? I mean sex is so truly transcendent if you beleive that it is intimatley bound to creation and generation.

I also think that the soul is infused at the moment of conception: that God is present acting in and through the marital act and breaths life into the fertilized egg at that moment, that there is a new immortal soul created out of and in love.


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## oatmeal (Nov 15, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by charmarty_
*:

One night we made love,and let me tell you,it was the most amazing,uplifting experience I have ever encountered!And I am not talking about the love making its self. It was like our entire bedroom had a soft,glowing light,and our bodies and spirits opened up to the entire universe. We both felt euphoria.
It truely was inexplicable(sp?).
*
Wow, This could be my exact word for word description of what happened when my daughter was conceived. Exactly. There was supernatural force everywhere. We were vibrating it as so intense (I'm not talking during the sex, I'm talking about everything in the room vibrating)

This is the reason my belief in life at conception was really confirmed when I myself got pregnant.


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## Katana (Nov 16, 2002)

I think that everything happens for a reason. Even if I can't know the reason all of the time, I still think there was a purpose for it happening.

The odds are against sperm and an egg uniting, statistically. Yet it still happens, and it happens a lot. It's been happening this way for centuries, so who am I, this tiny speck, to question why or when it happens?

I think that if an egg and a sperm unite, there is a reason for it. Even if the pregnancy only lasts a few weeks. Or the circumstances under which the pregnancy occurred are less than wonderful. There's a bigger purpose for that existence, than what I can see at that moment.

I believe a soul is formed at conception, and that the soul is eternal. If a soul has chosen my body to rest and grow in, I need to honor that request, as much as I can.


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## DreamsInDigital (Sep 18, 2003)

I believe 100% in every response that has been posted.
Why do I believe it's a baby?
Well, have you ever felt the first the tiny flutters of newfound movement? Heard that beautiful woosh-woosh sound of the first detected heartbeat with a doppler? Seen the proof of the baby inside your womb on ultrasound?
I have seen and felt all these miracles, and more. I have two beautiful children. They are not "products of conception" and they certainly weren't mere "fetuses" while I was growing them. Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you."
I believe with every ounce of my being that my children were babies all along.


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## spero (Apr 22, 2003)

I believe that life begins _before_ conception.

_I knew you before I formed you in your mother's womb. Before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as my spokesman to the world._ Jer 1:5


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## Mummoth (Oct 30, 2003)

Wow. You all put it so beautifully. I beleive that conception is the moment that the spirit enters it's physical home. I have felt my childrens' spirits _long_ before they were conceived. They _chose_ me. I believe a spirit won't begin it's life until the timing is right & good (even if it doesn't seem so in the short term) I'm not omnipotent, so I'm not qualified to question the wisdom behind it's existence.


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## ~Jenna~ (Dec 7, 2003)

Wow, everyone has expressed how I feel, but so much more eloquently than I could have ever said it!


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## SheBear (Aug 19, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by skellbelle_
*I believe that life begins before conception.

I knew you before I formed you in your mother's womb. Before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as my spokesman to the world. Jer 1:5*
I agree with Skellbelle, although I would never have thought to phrase it that way, and I never considered that verse in that context!!









A PP said something about believing life begins at conception, but not calling it a baby at that point. I can see the point of this, too....names like infant, baby, adolescent etc. are all very subjective terms....sometimes I call my almost 2 year old a baby, sometimes I call him a toddler. The labeling in this case is not firm or specific to age. Nor even really linked to physical/emotional development or behavior. Rather, it is a combination of all those things (plus a few of my own sappy emotions thrown in for fun!







).

Thus I would say that I believe that God-given life (which exists in God before conception) is bestowed upon that conception and the result is human life. Before conception/fertilization, there is still life, but it is (IMO) spiritual in nature, not specifically human.

After conception/fertilization there is growth and change and development, which continues until the "human" disintegrates (in death, which could be 2 minutes later, or 90+ years later!) and the "life" returns to God Who gave it. Obviously, my beliefs are largely based in my religious faith, but IMO there is plenty of non-religious evidence to support these beliefs, as well.

Another PP mentioned that the age of viability has changed (lowered) as technology has improved. I have no doubts that our technology will continue to improve and we will see marvelous, amazing things in years to come!

Not just in terms of when a human life can survive outside of the womb...consider, for example, when microscopes made it possible for humans to, for the first time, see germs! Before we could see them, we didn't--couldn't--believe in their existence. Before telescopes gave us a window to the heavens, we had no idea how innummerable were the stars!

But just because our eyes are weak and our technology is still in it's infancy, does not mean that the very nature of life (or reality) is limited! The world did not start out as flat and then gradually become round. Rather, we start out ignorant and gradually become wise (some of us more gradually than others, LOL!







).

This is why I think it is short-sighted to say that "life begins at the point of implantation (or quickening, or when we can detect a heart beat, or when we detect brain waves, or at viability, or at birth)." All of these things, are IMO, merely milestones.

IMHO, there are only two physical things needed for human life to exist--an egg and a sperm, and they have to join together. Whether in a woman's body, or a test tube, or whatever. Obviously, more is required to _sustain_ human life for any amount of time, but that is equally true of life after birth.

Snowy Owl wrote:

Quote:

Another idea I have considered is the fact that so many embryos/fertilized eggs are created for scientific purposes or for in vitro fertilization....so where is the life potential of these? Are they less 'alive' because they are not inside a womb?
IMO, it is inaccurate to imply that humans--even doctors or scientists--can create any form of life. Sure, they can put genetic material together and manipulate it. They can make the conditions more favorable for an egg to be fertilized by a sperm. But if life results, it is granted by God, the Giver of Life, and thus is valuable and worthy of protection.

Quote:

Also, the majority of miscarriages occur because of serious defects in the baby.
This may well be true, although it is almost impossible to prove. But IMO, it does not change the discussion in any way. I think this is primarily said to comfort women who have miscarried, to help them come to term with their loss, and to prevent unwarranted feelings of guilt. Nothing wrong with that, I suppose. And as I said, it may well be true, but there's simply no way to *know*, KWIM?

I personally did not find it all that comforting a thought after my own miscarriage. I choose, rather, to believe that my perfect--not defective--child had been given to us for a precious--and preciously short--time, and that his/her purpose in living was fulfilled in that small span of time. Certainly, that tiny little life had value--great value! It's existance impacted (for the better) my life, and many others as well. IMHO, none of us can hope for a better, more successful life than that--even if we live to be 100!

Blessings,

Sarah

PS....This is my very first post in Activism...please be gentle with me!


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## cortsmommy (Jul 6, 2003)

I believe its a baby at conception. I am spiritually and emotionally pro-life in every way. I would never have an abortion and would do anything in my power to talk a friend out of having one. However, I realize that not everyone chooses to believe what I know.

I cannot impose my beliefs on others as I do not want anyone else's imposed on me. So I'm in limbo on this issue. I cry thinking of the children lost but I also know that its not my place to save them, and that there is a reason for it all and at least they aren't born into a life where their own mothers do not want them.

So I am tearfully prochoice, but personally prolife.

I hope that makes sense to others.


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

"Either the fetus is a person or not. Either we know what it is or we don't. This leaves only 4 possibilities:
_______ A fetus is not a person, and we know that. This has NEVER been any
_______ evidence to support this.

_______ A fetus is a person, and we know that. Killing an innocent person knowingly
_______ is murder.

_______ A fetus is a person, and we do not know that. Killing a person without knowing
_______ or intending to is manslaughter. It's like shooting at a sudden movement in a
_______ bush which may be a deer or another hunter.

_______ A fetus is not a person, and we do not know that. If the hunter didn't know
_______ for sure and shot anyway, it is criminal negligence, even if no one was killed.

Abortion might be three things;
___________________ murder,___ manslaughter,__ or_ criminal negligence
_______________________________ each of which is not debated but instinctively condemned."

So I don't know one way or the other, I prefer to err on the side of caution.


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## BeeandOwlsMum (Jul 11, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by DreamsInDigital_
*
Well, have you ever felt the first the tiny flutters of newfound movement? Heard that beautiful woosh-woosh sound of the first detected heartbeat with a doppler? Seen the proof of the baby inside your womb on ultrasound?
*
No.









Sorry off topic pity party.







T

(Bad mod, bad, bad mod!







)


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## Katana (Nov 16, 2002)

Oh Adina!


















Here's some wishes that your wishes become reality.


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

for those who believe in original sin, when do you feel a foetus inherit original sin?


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by SheBear_
*IMO, it is inaccurate to imply that humans--even doctors or scientists--can create any form of life. Sure, they can put genetic material together and manipulate it. They can make the conditions more favorable for an egg to be fertilized by a sperm. But if life results, it is granted by God, the Giver of Life, and thus is valuable and worthy of protection.
*
Is it not humans 'creating life' when we put genetic material together through more traditional methods, namely sex? The fact is whether it's a sperm and egg in a lab or in a womb, it's life and has the potential to grow into a person. You can't deny that.

I don't for a second think that we get any credit for orchestrating the fundamentals of life in any way...all we can do is tamper and intervene using the limited knowledge we have. But you speculated in your post that wonderful things can happen because of technology...that's true...but the flip side of this is practices which have moral implications far more serious than abortion, when we look at the direction embryo manipulation and cloning is taking us. It seems hypocritical to be so focused on the rights of embryos as 'individuals' when they are in their mother's wombs but not as 'individuals' in an artificial environment.
Theoretically, we can grow a human being from conception to birth in an artificial environment. Test tube babies, conceived in a petri dish, are exactly as alive as anyone alse.

Also, who God deems 'worthy of protection' is not up to any of us. If you have decided that embryos in a lab are not worthy of protection, that's your opinion, not God's.

By the way, welcome to activism!


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## SheBear (Aug 19, 2003)

Thanks for the welcome, Snowy Owl!









I think maybe you misunderstood me. My point was that, yes, we can push genetic material together, and sometimes life results. But sometimes it doesn't--just ask anyone who has been through the wringer of IVF and still has no child to show for it.

So, if life results in a petri dish or test tube, then I can only believe that God--the only Giver of Life--had a hand in it. And thus, life _where ever_ it occurs should be considered valuable and worthy of protection. I agree that it would be hypocrisy on my part if I believed that embryos in a womb were more valuable than those in a test tube or freezer somewhere. But this is not what I believe, and I'm sorry that I did not make that clear in my post. Hope this clarifies things!









Quote:

But you speculated in your post that wonderful things can happen because of technology...that's true...but the flip side of this is practices which have moral implications far more serious than abortion, when we look at the direction embryo manipulation and cloning is taking us.....snip!....Theoretically, we can grow a human being from conception to birth in an artificial environment. Test tube babies, conceived in a petri dish, are exactly as alive as anyone alse.
I am in total agreement with this. I am concerned about genetic modification and cloning, etc., and I do think that there are realms of science into which we should not venture just because we can, KWIM? But I find a measure of peace in this: I believe that God is still in control, even when we as humans are out of control.


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## pammysue (Jan 24, 2004)

Quote:

_Originally posted by dado_
*for those who believe in original sin, when do you feel a foetus inherit original sin?*
at conception


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

I htink original sin is with the child from the first day. I don't think this makes them any less lovable, just another person who will be able to experiance the redmptive love of Jesus.


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

I believe in original innocence. I think it's with us from the first moment of cellular life, and stays with us forever. Sometimes we think we've lost it, but it can be regained. The nature of the four month old fetus within my womb this very moment is purely, inherently innocent and good, completely at one with it's purpose in life... but really, we are all inherently innocent and good. 'Sin' is forgetting this... here is the first etymology I could scrape up in a hurry:

Quote:

The English word sin derives from Old English synn. The same root appears in several other Germanic languages, e.g. Old Norse synd, or German Sünde. The word may derive, ultimately, from *es-, one of the Indo-European roots that meant "to be," and is a present participle, "being." Latin, also has an old present participle of esse in the word sons, sont-, which came to mean "guilty" in Latin. The root meaning would appear to be, "it is true;" that is, "the charge has been proven." The Greek word hamartia is often translated as sin in the New Testament; it means "to miss the mark" or "to miss the target"
Sin= to miss the mark

or as I've read elsewhere, to go astray. The connotation of 'evil' and 'darkness' is a relatively new interpretation, but unfortunately, the generally accepted one.
I know, I know. No one asked.

:ignore


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## NomD (Jan 11, 2004)

I believe it is a life from conception. And I am pro-choice, but still believe this. I have also experienced the amazing miracle of *knowing* we have conceived at the time, it's an awesome event. When we conceived our firstborn, we could both feel his spirit close by, and we knew he was a boy, and we even knew his name. It was weird. We welcomed him straight away.We had also felt his spirit close to us even a week before, and we were not even planning to have a baby.
Because I believe this, it makes it so much harder for me to deal with the fact that I had an abortion many years ago. I wish I could believe that it was "just a bunch of cells" , but I can't and so I will carry my guilt and sadness with me through my life.


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by NomD_
*I wish I could believe that it was "just a bunch of cells" , but I can't and so I will carry my guilt and sadness with me through my life.*
I don't wish to minimize the sadness you feel in anyway, just wanted to say that if you hadn't had that abortion then, then you probably wouldn't have the child you have now, right? Sorry, I'm really tired right now and can't tell if this is worth saying or not...


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## mcimom (Jun 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Snowy Owl_
*I don't wish to minimize the sadness you feel in anyway, just wanted to say that if you hadn't had that abortion then, then you probably wouldn't have the child you have now, right? Sorry, I'm really tired right now and can't tell if this is worth saying or not...*
flawed reasoning (IMO), snowy owl (no disrespect), but no one can know what might have happened had we made another choice.

NomD I am right there with you babe!







but









My sister rationalizes not regreting her abortion b/c she "wouldn't be where she is now" again, no disrespect, but how can she know that? why is abortion the ONLY choice?

She rationalizes my abortion by saying I wouldn't have had my three daughters had I not killed my first baby? How can she know that? That is flawed reasoning. It might get her through the night, but that doesn't make it true.

In fact, I will say I KNOW, I have EVIDENCE that I could be where I am now had I made the choice not to kill my firstborn. My very best friend has a 12yo and 4 more children and a marriage. She was pregnant under my same circumstances, under age, in high school, etc. (I'm talking so almost EXACTLY my same circumstances that even our dads even held the same jobs). We went to the same college even. At one point had the same freaking major.

I have to look her son in the eyes every day and think "what if?"
















NomD words can't really express how much I feel for you. but we are forgiven. (even if not completely by our own selves)

and back to the OP - it's a BABY because it's a HUMAN BEING, A HUMAN PERSON - a zygote is not going to develop into anything else. Not a carrot. Not a dog. It's going to make A BABY (or even a FETUS if you will) which is simply a HUMAN BEING in a less developed state of LIFE (much like my 2yo is not developed compared to my 30yo self)

Yes, you could end up having a miscarriage, but that would be natural law or the hand of God (whatever your particular beliefs) and not the INTENTIONAL KILLING OF A HUMAN BEING which is what abortion is.

amarasmom - isn't it amazing what logic can do? kind of cuts through all the crap - doesn't it?


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

mcimom, what I said wasn't an 'argument', so what are you talking about? I was offering a perspective, that's all.
The fact is, things work out the way they do for a reason, even things we don't understand, like abortion. You implied that miscarriage is 'the hand of God' (or whatever your particular beliefs) but that abortion is not.... how in the world could someone leap to that conclusion? For the people that feel they need to have an abortion, it is the same thing...in the circumstances they are in at the time. To compare it to murder is extremely irrational and disrespectful to those who have been in that circumstance. I am thankful that I have not been there, as I am thankful for my daughter and the child in my womb.


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

oatmeal~ whew! I am so happy dh and I are not totally off our rockers! Its comforting to know someone else felt the same.

I wish everyone could feel it. I know its there,but I wish everyone could experience it like that I guess is the best way to describe it.

I wonder if either of us were to concieve child again if we would feel it like that again? I HOPE so!

I also wonder how those who believe a fetus in the womb is not alive would explain that to a parent whos baby was born still born.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

MCImom-


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## spero (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Snowy Owl_
*You implied that miscarriage is 'the hand of God' (or whatever your particular beliefs) but that abortion is not.... how in the world could someone leap to that conclusion?*
Because abortion is the deliberate ending of a life, by the hand of a human being.


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by skellbelle_
*Because abortion is the deliberate ending of a life, by the hand of a human being.*
I will address this in the context of this thread. I am saying that whether or not a human being lives in this world or not is up to fate, or the will of God, or whatever words you choose. If a human being does not exist in this world, whether it be because of miscarriage, abortion, or a car accident, it is the will of God, fate, or karma, and meant to be. I did not state this to justify abortion, as I have no need to do so, I am not planning to have one. I stated this because I do not think things are as simple as people want them to be. No one can say what the designs of god are...why assume that a miscarriage is his plan but an abortion isn't? Just because we want it to be so? I am not presuming one way or the other because it seems arrogant to me... I know I can only do what I believe is right with the limited wisdom that I have... and that's all anyone can do. For some, it means ending a life that *could* have been born into the world...but isn't.

I have tens of thousands of eggs, my husband billions of sperm.... all the potential babies that could be born that never will...

Why was *I* born? Why my daughter?
It is puzzling and mysterious.


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by skellbelle_
*Because abortion is the deliberate ending of a life, by the hand of a human being.*
it doesn't follow. either G-d actively intervenes, or he doesn't. if he does, then an abortion is every bit as much G-d's handiwork as a miscarriage or a successful pregnancy or any other event that happens.

but frankly the idea that G-d reaches down and chooses which women will and won't miscarry is a concept i find completely revolting and 100% incompatible with my faith.


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## mcimom (Jun 8, 2002)

okay so flawed argument changed to flawed perspective changed to flawed reasoning, snowy owl - my bad. my apologies.

and that anyone could compare miscarriage and abortion makes me feel the same thing - how could anyone leap to that conclusion?

dado and snowy - from what I believe - God gives us free will. Fine, if that's not your belief, but that's where I'm coming from. And why I make the distinction.

So is this a thread for PRO-LIFERS to talk in or isn't it? It seems to me that's what the OP is asking for.


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by mcimom_
*okay so flawed argument changed to flawed perspective snowy owl - my bad. my apologies.
*
Now, now. With statements like that, I would take the second word out of your senior member's name, only the first seems accurate. :LOL

Who are you to call someone's perspective flawed? It's puzzling. This isn't a 'choice' debate. It's more philosophical/spiritual. Let's stay on-topic.

It's too bad that the tired old question of 'free will' is all that got picked out of this. I was attempting to address something more profound.

Oh well.


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## spero (Apr 22, 2003)

*~JMO~*

Humans purposely ending another human life is not God's will. The free will He gave us humans leads to abortion.

Miscarriage is God's work.

Abortion is human work.

The two cannot be considered equal.

_Edited to clarify._


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by skellbelle_
*Miscarriage is God's work.
Abortion is human work.
The two cannot be considered equal.*
either we have free will or we don't. if someone chooses to pregnant, that is free will. if G-d reaches down and decides "i'm killing the baby you chose to conceive" then that is a gross violation of free will.

but however you choose to look at it, imo there is absolutely no way G-d is up there playing the role of Abortion Doctor. and that's exactly the role your line of reasoning gives him.


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by skellbelle_
*
Miscarriage is God's work.

Abortion is human work.

The two cannot be considered equal.*
I think there is a misunderstanding here...at least with what I was addressing.
I agree...they are not 'equal'. When a woman has a miscarriage, as I and most others have had, we do not have to live with the weight of having made a decision to end a pregnancy, like someone who has an abortion. Miscarriage is accidental, not a decision. Of course! To put it simply, what I was saying is that, apart from making that choice, in the end, whether someone gets born or not is part of the Big Plan...there is no one here who isn't supposed to be, or not here who is supposed to be.
So things are not so simple as one is God's choice, the other is man's choice.
Even miscarriage/stillbirth, in some cases, occurs because of defects that could of been prevented if some human had made the choice not to contaminate the environment with toxins that harm the unborn. I am not saying that is always the cause, of course, it is an example of a 'choice' that determines whether someone exists or not. Everything is connected, and the choices we make with our so-called 'free will' do not occur in a vacuum.

Once again, to state so simply and assuredly that A is God's work and B is not God's work is a mistaken attempt to speak for God, which no one has any authority to do.


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## spero (Apr 22, 2003)

IMO, God has every right to step in and "violate" our free will, as He sees fit. We aren't supposed to know why....that's what faith is all about.

I would NEVER, EVER equate God with an abortion doctor. You are twisting my words to make it seem so.

I am agreeing to disagree, and stepping out of this "debate" now. According to the OP, this was supposed to be a thread where *pro-lifers* could discuss WHY we believe that a baby is a baby from conception. It has turned into a debate, and I'm sick of debating abortion 20 different ways with people whose minds and hearts will never be changed anyway.









Dang, when will I learn to just stay the hell away from Activism


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## spero (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Snowy Owl_
*Once again, to state so simply and assuredly that A is God's work and B is not God's work is a mistaken attempt to speak for God, which no one has any authority to do.*
I humbly concur. I will edit my post accordingly.


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by skellbelle_
*...we believe that a baby is a baby from conception.*
i, too, believe the same.


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by skellbelle_
*
Dang, when will I learn to just stay the hell away from Activism







*
Oh, don't leave... we are really not debating pro-choice versus pro-life here...but there are many different ways of being pro-life... the term is misleading because it implies that those who believe in a woman's right to choose somehow have less respect for life or want to see more abortions or something. No one wants that. I am pro-life for myself and let's not even get into whether or not the law has the right to make that decision for women.

Once again, I see this as being strongly a 'Spirtituality' topic and not an 'activism' topic. Therefore we should be respectful of the many different beliefs and philosophies expressed here. We don't all believe in the same God. I personally have serious doubts that human beings possess as much 'free will' as we are given credit for. I believe it is largely illusion. People live in a way that is for the most part unconscious, like animals, although we are capable of more.
But I digress.








Carry on..


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## SheBear (Aug 19, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by dado_
*either we have free will or we don't. if someone chooses to pregnant, that is free will. if G-d reaches down and decides "i'm killing the baby you chose to conceive" then that is a gross violation of free will.

but however you choose to look at it, imo there is absolutely no way G-d is up there playing the role of Abortion Doctor. and that's exactly the role your line of reasoning gives him.*
By this reasoning, one would also have to say that natural death (of someone who lived long enough to be born) is also a "gross violation of free will". Is that what you believe? A person who lives a full, healthy life, and then perhaps in their 70s or 80s dies quietly and peacefully in their sleep....no cancer, no heart attack, nothing "dramatic", just a natural passing away....and this is somehow a violation of free will? Because, presumably, not everyone who passes in such a manner expects (or wishes) to.

IMO, the difference here is rather obvious. God has set into motion a plan for natural life, whether it be human, animal, or plant. He has blessed us with a degree of free will, to operate within the framework of His natural design. Occasionally, we can use our intelligence and our technology to "stretch" the natural laws to a degree (for example, preserving and sustaining the life of a prematurely born child, or someone who is extremely sick or injured by using life support technology). We can also use our technology to cut short a life that would otherwise continue if left to the laws of nature set forth by God (for example here, aborting a child, or using a gun to kill an otherwise healthy adult).

All of this happens within the framework of our "free will", and yet God can always choose to intervene in a miraculous way (there are some amazing stories of children who survive abortion, and gunshot victims who _should_ be dead but aren't). It is certainly God's prerogative to intervene wherever He chooses (at least, I'm sure not going to argue His right to do so! LOL!) , for His own unknown purpose and glory.

As far as the specific difference between miscarriage and abortion: from a scriptural standpoint, we clearly have been given a directive against killing other humans. (Also clearly, specifically in the Old Testament, there are situations and circumstances in which killing another human is not only sanctioned, but demanded...but that's another issue altogether)

So, we have the commandment to not kill. We also have the words of The Preacher (Ecclesiates) who comforts us with the knowledge that "To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die...." And if you read the rest of chapter 3, you'll see that there is indeed "a time to kill, and a time to heal" but this still does not sanction the killing of innocents.

God is the giver--and taker--of life, and when we presume to step into His role in this, we had better do so with grave trepidation and reverence. And we had better make sure we have have "Godly permission" to do so.....not merely attending to our own convenience.

It is a serious matter to take anyone's life, whether it be in self-defence, or in wartime, or in any circumstance. It should not be undertaken lightly or seen as a matter of convenience.

A question that I think is fair to consider: Why is it okay to abort a baby simply because that baby's life doesn't fit into the plans of the mother/family, or it is unwanted, unplanned, or somehow less than our idea of "perfect", and yet so many of us are truly outraged when we hear about a scheduled induction or caesarean birth?

Why is it okay to KILL for our own convenience, but it is not okay to schedule birth for our own convenience?

As for speaking for God, no, we certainly do not have the right to do that. But fortunately for us, God spoke for Himself, quite clearly, and we have a written record of just what He said WRT many things....I do not feel it is in the least bit presumptuous to quote God in context.


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## dado (Dec 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by SheBear_
> 
> 
> *Quote:*
> ...


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## SheBear (Aug 19, 2003)

I agree. In fact, I think I said so upthread! Nope, I guess that was on the other thread....Anyway, I agree that it cannot continue to be discussed in this way without violating the spirit/intent of this forum.









I don't intend to start a thread myself, but I'll certainly read with interest (and respond if I feel moved to) if someone else chooses to start one.


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

There's no need to start a new thread, this one is perfectly fine.
Anyway...
I really liked the things you had to say, SheBear, and am going to single something out to start with....

Quote:

_Originally posted by SheBear_
Why is it okay to KILL for our own convenience, but it is not okay to schedule birth for our own convenience?
Well, I wonder who says that it's 'okay' to kill for convenience? And who says a scheduled ceasarean is the ethical equivalent to murder? Is anyone advocating that no woman should have a legal right to a ceasarean except when her life is threatened? People advocate to reduce the incidence of uneccessary c-section for health reasons and safety reasons, and because so many are ignorant of the risks involved. So I don't really understand who is saying one thing is 'okay' and the other isn't. People are 'outraged' , as you say, because pregnancy and childbirth have been stolen from women, we want to re-empower ourselves . Some amount of anger is normal. And even those who advocate for choice do not believe that it is 'okay' to kill a fetus or embryo. Some might, many don't. It's not the point.

By the way, Ecclesiates is one of my favourite sections of the Bible. It is simple and true. It reminds me a bit of Lao Tzu...another one of my favouites. I am open to the widom and truth that Christianity contains... but I am not a Christian, and the presence of a God as an entity, a being, that sends prophets, speaks to us, and intervenes in our lives is not part of my reality. I have a different concept of God and usually don't use the word because of the familiar associations it can conjure up. Long bearded caucasian pointing his finger at us from the sky, etc.
But I also belive that all concepts of God are, in a way, equal, because we are all subject to the same limitations. To draw from the old Sufi story, we are all in the dark touching a different part of the elephant, and believing our subjective and limited experience of that part to be the ultimate truth. No one sees the elephant.

So to bring us around to to the beginning...
If a woman has had an abortion, it is in the past. What's done is done, the baby that may have been born wasn't, and it wasn't meant to be. Nothing can be changed, you can only move forward.
If a friend who trusts me comes to be for support or advice because she feels she needs to abort but is unsure, I would do my best to help her find the inner clarity to make the decision that was right for her. Telling her it is murder or telling her it's just a clump of cells just makes it difficult for her to find her own truth.
I know what my own truth was when I got pregnant. Even though it was unplanned and I was scared, I was filled with joy, I felt like something big was happening to me. Like a black and white movie turned to color.
If someone feels the opposite of that...feels dread and resentment...if their truth tells them they must abort...
that truth is as real to them as mine was to me and I would say that for them, abortion is the right thing. If they say it is... I only know what is right for me.

I have enjoyed this discussion, but am a bit worried tha maybe my words won't have meaning to people here. It took me almost half an hour to write this and I wonder why I am doing it...oh well.

I have posted here quite a bit and will take a break to let others have their say.


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## NomD (Jan 11, 2004)

Wow, this thread has zoomed right along since I posted last! I just wanted to say thankyou for your kind words, mcimommy.
And snowy Owl, I know where you were coming from. It's true, if I had not had an abortion I would not have given birth to my son who is now 7 (and I guess therefore my two subsequent children may not be who they are also). I know this because he was conceieved just before the baby would have been due. It has helped me to cope with my decision. I do think things happen for a reason...even if the reason isn't always clear. I regret having the abortion but then I get confused because how can I regret having my son?
I could never in a million years have another abortion, never. But it is part of my past and I have to accept that.


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## mcimom (Jun 8, 2002)

Quote:

re·gret
v. re·gret·ted, re·gret·ting, re·grets
v. tr.
To feel sorry, disappointed, or distressed about.
To remember with a feeling of loss or sorrow; mourn.

v. intr.
To feel regret.

n.
A sense of loss and longing for someone or something gone.
A feeling of disappointment or distress about something that one wishes could be different.
I think too often we use regret in the final way mentioned. As in, I wish it could be different. When it can be used in all of the aforementioned ways.

Just because I REGRET my abortion (check out a great bumper sticker from www.hh76.com) doesn't mean that I wish my life were different, you know?

I REGRET marrying my husband. It was a mistake. Had I had a lick of sense, I would have realized he was neither good husband or good father matieral. Nevertheless, I have my 3 daughters - they could not exist without him or my relationship with him. Obviously I don't regret the RESULTS of my marriage or my life, just that I wasn't smart enough to pick a life long mate with more in mind than my own desperation to be in a relationship.

So, I'm totally







T now and it has been a pet peeve of mine lately that so many threads get way sidetracked or hijacked so I'll stop.

I just think that REGRET has many meanings and it is hard to reconcile what might have been with what is or what could have been, etc. etc. but just because you REGRET an action, doesn't necessarily mean you REGRET a result of that action, you know? Intentional or not.

oh and since I'm







T anyway - lilyka - thanks for that







babe. It means a lot given how much I respect you and







ya like an online soul sister - yk?


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## mcimom (Jun 8, 2002)

one more







T response b/c I'm a sucker for punishment and can't resist.

you've hurt my feelings, snowy owl. :LOL after implying I'm not kind, merely obnoxious? And then calling my personal, religious belief in the idea of free will "tired" and going further to imply that my beliefs are not "profound"

I freely own up to the fact that I am







T but I feel I've been led that way...

And I haven't addressed this in a PM (for those that might be wondering) because the very clearly personal statements that hurt my feelings were not PMed either.

Being in Activism usually makes me







which I think is a good thing. But I usually stay out because of the







it leads to. This is the only forum that has ever made me


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## Snowy Owl (Nov 16, 2003)

Aww, mcimom...
Now I know that comment about 'obnoxiously kind' was just a low blow, but I didn't mean it... not as an attack, just a kind of poke or joke.
Sorry to hurt your feelings...
And about the 'free will' thing, I wasn't implying that your belief in free will was tired, just that to call it up in the context of what I was saying was, and, hey, maybe I was wrong but that's why it's a discussion.
Anyway, I enjoyed the discussion and I hope there are no bad feelings...


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## mcimom (Jun 8, 2002)

Nope. My initial reaction to the :LOL was joke and I thought oh, cool! I love a mama that can joke around admist a serious discussion, but then I read the other stuff and thought, hmmm, maybe not meant so nicely after all














:








: sorry if I seem a little sensitive, I'm usually pretty thick skinned and I hate being a whiner

I'm glad we cleared it up














it's all good as far as I'm concerned...

and I am DEFINITELY obnoxious, but I'm usually also very kind







Glad to know you are too ;D


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## kanpope (Mar 12, 2003)

Why are some of the posts deleted? MDC censorship?


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## Bestbirths (Jan 18, 2003)

I'm coming in kind of late on this. We believe that the soul enters the body at the babies first breath. Before that, we believe the baby is alive, having not yet recieved its soul.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

I was asked recently what my opinion on abortion was.

I didn't have the heart to tell the prolifers off. As in - its my baby, my body, MY choice.

Nope. I gave them the "prolife" answer. I will go with a friend to have one but I couldn't (says the woman who took RU486 several times and knows of herbal emmenogues) unless it was a medical emergency...

That seemed to satisfy them. I didn't want to see the pictures of aborted fetii or embryos. I've seen enough come from my own body from miscarriages thankyouverymuch. I don't need to have it gorily shown to me in technicolour detail. Especially not with my son with me.

When does life begin? When the heart starts to beat. When does life end? Hopefully with dignity. It is always a woman's choice to go through with the pregnancy. As soon as we stop that choice from happening, there will be back alley abortions again and women will die.

We don't ever want to go through that again. Pregnancy is between a woman, her partner, her doctor, and her diety. If she doesn't want to have it, none of the others can force her to do otherwise.


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## dirtlovinmama (Jan 2, 2004)

Wow I love this thread...we can share each belief without stomping out anothers....

I believe that spirit souls tend to reincarnate within a familiar grouping. Souls travel togther birth after birth, including other animals then humans. The work there way through all sorts of births and circumstances until the soul truely gets tired of material nature and purely becomes devoted to God..Krishna...and at that time of death if so situation in a devotional state...the spirit soul gets free of the cycle of birth and death and joins krishna (God) in an eternal abode....

So at the time of conception the spirit soul present when the baby starts to grow is the spirit of our cosmic kin. We are reunited with true love. These are our true companions....precious few that can help us learn to evolve compassionatley....

Also, there is the karma that abortions beget abortions...That simplifys it in a way that reads cruel, I don't even mean it as anti-abortion...If a woman chooses to have one it might just be rightful karma...and that bloody goo has a soul that was meant to be aborted...and it'll probably happen again! Who wants to sign up for that?! Simple truth...don't mess with the cosmic creation...it tends to repeat itself!

anyway, for the same reasons, I wouldn't eat/kill a cow, or any other animal. The karma involved in all the killing... so I am very pro-life even non-human!

lastly I have been told that birth is much scarier then death...

Namaste


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## oatmeal (Nov 15, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by dirtlovinmama_
*

lastly I have been told that birth is much scarier then death...

Namaste*
Wow, I totally dug how you expressed yourself in that post.

May I ask from whom you heard this last thought, and how you heard it... what they said was more fearsome?


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## dirtlovinmama (Jan 2, 2004)

My Guru taught me all of that...and the last part is almost ,meant as a lighthearted joke...

we spend so much time preventing, lamenting and being scared about the concept of dying..he said once...that death is not the one to worry about, it is blissful, but that birth...well birth is another story, it is painful, confussing and a profound seperation from God. But atleast we pick our traveling companions!

ANyway I am glad that this thread is here and hope it doesn't become a debate between Christians and Non-Christians. Because I doubt that was the OT point.

Snowy Owl's perspective was very cool for me to read, appears evolved and compassionate...Thanks for sharing without intimidation


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## fourgrtkidos (Jan 6, 2004)

This thread has gotten very interesting!

I am glad to hear others say that they and their spouses KNEW immediatelly after intercoarse that they were pregnant.!!!! It is a very great experience. I guess the idea that life exists even before conception ..... helps me realize I have not been crazy to feel that someone was "missing" after my third child was born and now that my fourth is here..... I feel my family is complete.

-Mama to Fourgrtkidos


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