# Expired car seats on Freecycle



## Pumpkin_Pie (Oct 10, 2006)

I am so frustrated! I have seen this happen three times now on my local freecycle. Every time I have emailed the poster and the moderator and let them know this is ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY NOT SAFE, and have never heard back from anyone. I get the feeling that they think I am some raving lunatic.

Any idea on how to get this to stop? I have seriously thought of just asking for the seats, but I am not always on the computer right when the ad pops up, so someone else might be ahead of me.

There should be some sort of legal stuff I could throw their way.


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## Smalls181 (May 12, 2006)

It may not be true, but I often tell people who try to sell or give away expired seats that they are unsafe and why. And then I tell them that they MAY be held liable if a child is injured.


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## Papooses (Dec 20, 2006)

My local Freecycle ignored me for over a year.... Until I finally explained that I'm a CPST who has appeared in our local newspaper + on our local radio station & I find it appalling that they have little to no regard for the life or death safety of the children in our community -- they did end up adding the Used Seat Checklist to their links section, but also told me that they will continue to allow expired/etc. carseats because people may want them for "creative purposes"
















http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/usedseat.aspx


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## sunnymw (Feb 28, 2007)

I post a public reply if the seat is obviously expired about the dangers/links/etc... if I'm not positive I try to grab up the seat myself.

I've found seats at our Goodwill with a DOM of 92-94 before. It was an infant seat lined in blue vinyl, ugh! If I'd had a sharpie I would have written "EXPIRED-DANGEROUS-DEATH TRAP" on it in sharpie


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## Pumpkin_Pie (Oct 10, 2006)

The one last night had the following description:
"I have an OLD forward-facing carseat with 5-point harness. It has been
in my family since it was purchased new 15 years ago, so I know it has
never been in an accident and has not been recalled. I found it useful
as an extra for playdates, short trips in the spare car, etc. May not
be quite as comfy as the newer models, but it's perfectly adequate as a
spare. Maker is Evenflo."

My jaw almost hit the floor when I read it.

ETA: Now that I think about it, I may do a "reply all" anyway. I don't really care if I get reprimanded for sending out a mass post if it saves one or two people from posting expired seats. I think I will wait until this afternoon, as the seat was advertised late last night and I replied almost immediately and also reported the post at the same time. I would rather the "warning" come from the mod if possible.


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## Papooses (Dec 20, 2006)

If only my local Freecycle allowed replies on the public list . . . but, nope, all are automatically deleted regardless








Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnymw* 
If I'd had a sharpie I would have written "EXPIRED-DANGEROUS-DEATH TRAP" on it in sharpie









I was wishing I had a Sharpie on me the other day: my favorite local consignment shop just recently "branched out" & started selling used, expired carseats -- the worst issue being that the owner rolled her eyes at me when I gave her my business card & explained (very briefly) that the seats are unsafe according to our state's traffic safety website.

Luckilly my 6 year old was with me as usual. She piped in loud enough for all the customers to look at us: "Why doesn't this place care if the babies could die? THAT's WRONG!"















::nana:


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## Pumpkin_Pie (Oct 10, 2006)

Ok, so I just got this response:

"This topic has been addressed to the group on numerous occasions, so I did not send out another post about it in June when you requested it as I felt that it had been addressed recently enough. The last time it was addressed I did a search of the archived carseat posts. 99% of them included information about the age of the seat and whether or not it has been in an accident. I think that people are aware of the expiration date and accident information and that is why they include it in their posts.

If you would like to send a blurb to me to post to the group as a reminder on this topic then I will post it for you. Please keep it non-judgemental and offer suggestions for other options.

By the way, the statement about insurance not paying for a child's injuries is not correct. I am an insurance agent."

I thought that insurance companies wouldn't cover a child's injuries if he/she was in an improperly used seat (which using an expired seat would be improper use, right?).

Anyway, I am so frustrated with this freecycle group. Anyone want to help me write a good blurb that will get the point across without sounding too "judgemental"?


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## Papooses (Dec 20, 2006)

Insurance companies vary. My cousin is also an insurance agent.

As for a "nonjudgmental blurb" -- well, that's why I just requested they simply post the USED SEAT CHECKLIST in their links section & send it in their standard monthly/weekly announcements (all of which I doubt anyone truly pays attention to)


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## mama2mygirl (Dec 14, 2005)

I email and also get no response. Once it was a crunchy homeschool mom from a large group I was part of. Not my friend but I kind of new of her. She didn't respond either.


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## tapmilkmom (May 25, 2005)

I'm gonna be the voice of the minority here, but the moms who post the used carseasts are probably thinking,"better a used carseat than no carseat at all" and may not know that there are places you can get free carseats.

ARE there places to get used carseats? I don't know, we bought our first one, the health insurance company sent us the second one and we bought the third.????

I've gone 'round with someone here (don't remember who) about the fact that THEY would prefer NO CARSEAT AT ALL to a used/expired carseat.

Whatever. To each her own, but not for my family.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Is it really safer for a kid to be without a carseat then in an expired one?


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## Smalls181 (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird* 
Is it really safer for a kid to be without a carseat then in an expired one?

It is no safer to be in an expired seat than in no seat at all. The plastic breaks down over time, as does all plastic, and becomes brittle. In a crash, the force could, and has, caused the harness to break through the plastic, strangling the child, or ejecting them completely.

There are many options for parents who cannot afford a new seat. An expired seat is not their only option.

As for freecycle... all we can do is give parents the information and the rest is up to them. It is very unfortunate when parents choose to put their childrens life at risk, but there isn't a whole lot we can do about it.


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## Smalls181 (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tapmilkmom* 
I'm gonna be the voice of the minority here, but the moms who post the used carseasts are probably thinking,"better a used carseat than no carseat at all" and may not know that there are places you can get free carseats.

ARE there places to get used carseats? I don't know, we bought our first one, the health insurance company sent us the second one and we bought the third.????

I've gone 'round with someone here (don't remember who) about the fact that THEY would prefer NO CARSEAT AT ALL to a used/expired carseat.

Whatever. To each her own, but not for my family.

In my small community, there are several options. We have a Safe Kids Coalition, the Health Department, and the OB department at the hospital.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

TBH, an expired carseat can shatter under crash forces, causing sharp debris to fly around the cabin... yeah, I'd say it *is* more hazardous (in an accident) than no carseat at all.

On a day-to-day basis, carseats also serve a function of keeping kids comfortable and seated in the car, which can have some safety benefits. So... I'm not sure which is safer in total; if an accident is significantly less likely with kids restrained in expired seats, that might offset the increased risk the seat itself poses.

OTOH, it feels a little like asking "Which would you rather your child have access to: drain cleaner or bleach?" :-/


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## odenata (Feb 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird* 
Is it really safer for a kid to be without a carseat then in an expired one?

If my choice was an expired carseat or none, I would take the expired one. However, I can't imagine that ever being the only two options. There are state programs that provide free carseats, hospitals that provide free carseats, etc. Giving out expired carseats is not safe, and it may cause someone to compromise their child's safety instead of taking the time to get one that is safe.


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## MommyJoia (Oct 31, 2007)

if you have enough $ to be sitting around posting on the internet, you have enough $ to get the cheapest car seat, which has to be safer than an expired car seat. IMHO


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I find it difficult to believe that an expired carseat is worse than no carseat. In fact, that's just silly. They don't self-destruct the day they expire, and only *might* break under pressure, but they might hold up. But with no carseat the baby is basically bouncing around the car in an accident. So it's like Russian Roulette vs. just shooting. Though they are both stupid and unsafe, Russian Roulette is safer than just shooting someone.

The Freecycle group should post an explanation as to why expired seats aren't safe, and maybe give some links as to places where parents in need can get free safe seats. And they should put the info in an FAQ if one goes out each month too.

I wouldn't trust a seat from Freecycle regardless of how new it was because how do you KNOW it hasn't been in an accident? I mean, maybe whoever had the seat doesn't consider a fender-bender to be an accident. Or maybe they haven't been using it for a while and it's been sitting in the garage under a pile of heavy things, and the weight has stressed it? I really wish Freecycle would just not allow carseat posts at all. I hate when I see them in garage sales too.


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## liz-hippymom (Jul 17, 2003)

soemone gave me an expired bucket seat-i use it for visits for my foster baby. she is in a britax in the car, but i carry her in in the bucket and it gives bios a place to put her in besides the discustingly dirty couches in the cps office. .creative use i guess!


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MommyJoia* 
if you have enough $ to be sitting around posting on the internet, you have enough $ to get the cheapest car seat, which has to be safer than an expired car seat. IMHO

You can get internet access for less than $10 a month, or have internet access as part of your job, and STILL not have $50 in cash to go purchase a new carseat. Also, sometimes people use Freecycle to get items for friends without internet access. Comments like this are judgemental and not at all helpful.

Back on topic:

Expired "infant buckets' *can* safely be used as infant seats in the house, as an alternative to a "bouncy seat". Degraded plastic that might shatter during a vehicle collision should hold up just fine on the kitchen floor.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

there are sooo many cheap car seats available...plus free programs. some ppl just do NOT care. im dealing w/ this issue right now..wanting to GIVE someone a $200 car seat instead of them using the 15 plus year old car seat they have for their 1.5 yo. It just boggles the mind.


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## janasmama (Feb 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smalls181* 
It is no safer to be in an expired seat than in no seat at all. The plastic breaks down over time, as does all plastic, and becomes brittle. In a crash, the force could, and has, caused the harness to break through the plastic, strangling the child, or ejecting them completely.

There are many options for parents who cannot afford a new seat. An expired seat is not their only option.

As for freecycle... all we can do is give parents the information and the rest is up to them. It is very unfortunate when parents choose to put their childrens life at risk, but there isn't a whole lot we can do about it.

The CHP will often give out free carseats if the one you have is expired or the child is over the weight for it. I'm sure not having a carseat at all would qualify a person for one also.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MommyJoia* 
if you have enough $ to be sitting around posting on the internet, you have enough $ to get the cheapest car seat, which has to be safer than an expired car seat. IMHO

Is it the cost of the internet or the "sitting around" that is the issue? Because the job market isn't great and there are PLENTY of people out of work and without income who are "sitting around" who would rather not be. And there are disabled people who are unable to work but who still have babies. And there are people for whom working would not pay as much as childcare. "Sitting around" doesn't mean that not sitting around is going to mean someone has more money, or even that the person is able to not "sit around".

And as for the internet, it is really inexpensive to have internet access these days. In fact, some communities have free dial-up access. Some people live near a wi-fi spot and are able to access that. Some people just use the internet at the library. And computers can be had for free if you get a family member's hand-me-down or if you ask on Freecycle. There is no reason to assume that someone must have enough money for something else if they have internet access.

On top of that, I hate the idea that in order for someone to justifiably need help, that person shouldn't have any moment at all to "sit around" or any luxury at all, even a very inexpensive one like internet access.


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## Papooses (Dec 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smalls181* 
In a crash, the force could, and has, caused the harness to break through the plastic, strangling the child, or ejecting them completely.

This is why a *new* seat is necessary. This does not mean that using only a seatbelt is at all safe for the child.

Quote:

all we can do is give parents the information and the rest is up to them
Absolutely







"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink...."

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smalls181* 
In my small community, there are several options. We have a Safe Kids Coalition, the Health Department, and the OB department at the hospital.

Each community is different, but, yes, there is usually more than 1 way to find/afford a safe *new* seat. The Daycare & Child Development Council in my county also has a program to provide new carseats for free + the necessary education to income qualifying families. There's also te Kyle David ****** Foundation.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
TBH, an expired carseat can shatter under crash forces, causing sharp debris to fly around the cabin... yeah, I'd say it *is* more hazardous (in an accident) than no carseat at all.

Well, you are right that the harness (and child) are known to rip through the shell of expired carseats. However ... _safest practice still indicates that an expired carseat is indeed safer than none at all_. In part because the carseat does a better job of keeping the child inside the vehicle. Ejected occupants are 4 times as likely to die. There are other reasons that more experienced techs or instructors are more prepared to explain accurately. A recent study (forgive me, I don't have all my links) shows that slightly misused seats are absolutely safer than none at all. *I am not condoning the use of expired carseats. However, I am even less supportive of not using any carseat whatsoever*























Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
Expired "infant buckets' *can* safely be used as infant seats in the house, as an alternative to a "bouncy seat". Degraded plastic that might shatter during a vehicle collision should hold up just fine on the kitchen floor.

True









P.S. re: $ . . . I am an unemployed single mother with chronic illness in college full time. I have ZERO income. I also happen to be a CPST. I don't have internet at home. I don't have a phone at home. I use my friends' internet. My 5 siblings & I share a family cell phone plan. I don't even own a vehicle. I rock public transportation & move my kid's seats around from vehicle to vehicle for carpool/rideshare. We visit our friends & neighbors for shared meals, sending eachother home with leftovers. We love handmedowns. We use vinegar & baking soda to clean. You could call us poverty stricken. But, we're clean, responsible, smart & my kid is still safe in seats that were brand new off the shelf.


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## cam&kat's_mom (Jan 12, 2006)

nevermind. dont' feel like getting jumped all over.. posted before i read the whole thread.. no need to be another parent that "just doesn't care"


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## MommyJoia (Oct 31, 2007)

sorry to have offended.

It's the cost, and while I know there are several avenues to get free internet access, there are also several aves to get free or discounted seats, which are available through internet searches.

I had posted not to long ago that I couldn't afford a new seat. My husband was willing to put it on our only non-maxed-out cc. luckily I came into about $200 and we were able to buy the seat with cash. I could have used the $ to make a cc payment, I could have used it for groceries, but I chose to put my dd's safety first and get her 5 point harnessed again.

I think part of the "thrill" of freecycle is getting something for free whether you actually _need_ it or not. I have asked for clothes for my kids a few times on freecycle. I didn't get them, but my kids are not naked.

I also have friends who have no internet access, none, they cannot afford it, but they own 6 or 7 different kinds of slings/baby carriers. It's about priorities. She'd rather have her baby in a sling, than have net access.


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## Papooses (Dec 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cam&kat's_mom* 
that was my thinking as well. In our area there are no free carseats. at leas tnot to my knowledge adn i have looked.

In all honesty, it can be near impossible to find the free carseat clinics. This has a lot to do with the fact that such programs are bound by grant limitations & privacy laws. Too many people who are not truly in need just want free handouts without making the effort on their own. I'm not allowed to volunteer at our local fire or police station seatchecks because I'm not an employee, even though I have my own liability insurance. It's sad when those who truly are in need cannot find the resources, though









In dire circumstances only, an expired or used seat would be an acceptable *temporary* solution while saving the $15-50 for a brand new carseat. Expensive fancy features never trump CORRECT USE. Expired = incorrect use.

If your area truly has no resources for those who really are in need (the credit card bills can wait: you don't want to look back at your child's headstone & wish you'd simply taken a late fee!) then it sounds like a wonderful opportunity for you to become certified yourself so that you make miracles happen in your community


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## MommyJoia (Oct 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papooses* 
P.S. re: $ . . . I am an unemployed single mother with chronic illness in college full time. I have ZERO income. I also happen to be a CPST. I don't have internet at home. I don't have a phone at home. I use my friends' internet. My 5 siblings & I share a family cell phone plan. I don't even own a vehicle. I rock public transportation & move my kid's seats around from vehicle to vehicle for carpool/rideshare. We visit our friends & neighbors for shared meals, sending eachother home with leftovers. We love handmedowns. We use vinegar & baking soda to clean. *You could call us poverty stricken. But, we're clean, responsible, smart & my kid is still safe in seats that were brand new off the shelf.*

this is exactly my point.


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## tapmilkmom (May 25, 2005)

I think part of the issue is that resources can be very hard to locate. I work at a mental health clinic working with moderately to severely mentally ill people. I help them locate the resources they need to just to get by. (housing, food, balance checkbook, hygeine, etc.) I am constantly learning about resources that, while _new to me_ have been around for years and I'm just now hearing about it.

When I had post-partum depression just finding the phone number took great effort, then trying to get them to call me back took awhile, too.

There are definite obstacles to accessing services. It is not generally a matter of "just not wanting it" or priorities.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *odenata* 
If my choice was an expired carseat or none, I would take the expired one. However, I can't imagine that ever being the only two options. There are state programs that provide free carseats, hospitals that provide free carseats, etc. Giving out expired carseats is not safe, and it may cause someone to compromise their child's safety instead of taking the time to get one that is safe.

There are places that there are no "state carseat programs" or hospital carseats for instance the country I live in, Israel.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smalls181* 
It is no safer to be in an expired seat than in no seat at all. The plastic breaks down over time, as does all plastic, and becomes brittle. In a crash, the force could, and has, caused the harness to break through the plastic, strangling the child, or ejecting them completely.

Interesting.

Quote:

There are many options for parents who cannot afford a new seat. An expired seat is not their only option.
Maybe in your world, your reality. Try to keep in mind your reality is not the only one.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MommyJoia* 
if you have enough $ to be sitting around posting on the internet, you have enough $ to get the cheapest car seat, which has to be safer than an expired car seat. IMHO

Public library anyone?

Anyway, I was not thinking of people who have internet, I was just asking the question. I was asking in terms of my old seats that I lent out to others to use, people who would otherwise NOT USE a car seat at all.
Oh, and as you can see car seats can be a lot more then you are used to in other countries. (the shekel is around 3.5 to the dollar now)


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## Pumpkin_Pie (Oct 10, 2006)

Yikes! I didn't mean to start such a heated discussion!

Back on topic, anyone want to point me in the direction of some good solid facts I can send to the mod to put out in a mass email from him? I know I can go googling, but I am sure someone here (CPST's maybe?) must have this bookmarked.








:


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Kim, there are people right here who are wondering what the issue is with expired seats- isn't that on topic?


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird* 
There are places that there are no "state carseat programs" or hospital carseats for instance the country I live in, Israel.

Here's the page for the Israel branch of SafeKids: http://www.beterem.org/ They'd be who to contact about reduced-price or free carseats for needy families.

Do people offer up expired carseats on Freecyle Israel?

There are a lot of cultural issues around carseat use, I realize, plus the standards are different in different countries. You posted a link to prices, along with the conversion; the carseats on that page appear to start around $72 US... which isn't as cheap as the Cosco Scenera, but then, I don't know how the cost of living compares or whether the standards are more rigorous. Certainly, the new national law requiring boosters through age 9 is better than we have in the US (there may be states that require booster usage for that long, but I don't know for sure, and the vast majority don't).

What is car ownership like in Israel? In many places, having and using a car is much more of a luxury, so assuming that a family which drives can also afford a carseat is reasonable.


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## tapmilkmom (May 25, 2005)

From this statement:

*"This topic has been addressed to the group on numerous occasions, so I did not send out another post about it in June when you requested it as I felt that it had been addressed recently enough. The last time it was addressed I did a search of the archived carseat posts. 99% of them included information about the age of the seat and whether or not it has been in an accident. I think that people are aware of the expiration date and accident information and that is why they include it in their posts.*

It sounds as if the moderator is losing patience. (That is the way I read it, anyway.) Keep in mind that the mission of freecycle is to "keep stuff out of landfills". While I can see you are passionate about this.........they aren't. (freecycle mods) I think that maybe they don't want to get into the habit of policing all posts. ("Hey, that bicycle helmet was recalled and they were allowed to post it!" etc.)

Even though she/he (the mod) offered to let you post one little blurb about this, I think that this person is doing it as a way of appeasing you one last time so he/she can say, "enough, already!" if you post about it again.

That's just mho from what I read in the email reply. Of course, it is hard to read intent in an email.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
Here's the page for the Israel branch of SafeKids: http://www.beterem.org/ They'd be who to contact about reduced-price or free carseats for needy families.

I highly doubt they would actually give car seats. I would call just to prove it to you on Sun, mon. if I remember.

Quote:

Do people offer up expired carseats on Freecyle Israel?
Don't know anything about freecycle Israel. I know someone has my 10 year old car seat right now. I'm wondering if I should take it back from them so their kid can be unrestrained instead.

Quote:

What is car ownership like in Israel? In many places, having and using a car is much more of a luxury, so assuming that a family which drives can also afford a carseat is reasonable.
You don't have to own a car to take your baby or child in one, so that point is not really relevant. Or do you believe that an unrestrained child is somehow safer if the car belongs to someone else?


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## Papooses (Dec 20, 2006)

Re: what to send the Freecycle mods.... Please use the link I provided in my 1st reply to this thread







That should simply be sent in the standard weekly/monthly announcements (as my local Freecycle finally agreed to do) + any/all of the resources found HERE (you should send each URL separately: click on the pictures for the pages to open up)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird* 
You don't have to own a car to take your baby or child in one, so that point is not really relevant. Or do you believe that an unrestrained child is somehow safer if the car belongs to someone else?

Excellent point







Just a note, though . . . in one of your last posts you quoted someone else's thoughts on an expired seat not being safer than nothing -- please read through my response to that "advice": as a CPST it worries me to think that people would choose nothing over something. Something is indeed better than nothing. However, while it is also difficult or near impossible to find the resources, there is usually a safer alternative


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## tapmilkmom (May 25, 2005)

I was thinking about this thread earlier and had an idea. Why don't you put a quick blurb (maybe with a link to a blog post or some website with stats) about using expired carseats *in your email signature line*? That way everytime you send an email they will get the info, but you won't be having 'words' with the mods.


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## bmcneal (Nov 12, 2006)

Slightly OT, but carseats have expiration dates? Where is it located at? Is there an average of how long a carseat lasts? Wow, now I'm worried.


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## Papooses (Dec 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bmcneal* 
Slightly OT, but carseats have expiration dates? Where is it located at? Is there an average of how long a carseat lasts? Wow, now I'm worried.









The manual always explains: always start with the manual.... Many seats now also have the expiration imprinted on the plastic shell/frame -- usually underneath or on the back.

When in doubt, call the toll free customer service # listed on the stickers on the seat.

If you don't have a manual, request a replacement ASAP.


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## bmcneal (Nov 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papooses* 
The manual always explains: always start with the manual.... Many seats now also have the expiration imprinted on the plastic shell/frame -- usually underneath or on the back.

When in doubt, call the toll free customer service # listed on the stickers on the seat.

If you don't have a manual, request a replacement ASAP.

I don't have the manual, as DD was staying with her grandma when she outgrew the one she was in. I will check around on the shell and find out. I think I've seen it once and was wondering "what's that date for?" It's not that old, "Grandma Becky" bought it between February and May of this year. Thank you.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

If she bought it new from the store, it should be fine. I don't think there are any seats with an expiry less than five years. Most are six. A few are eight or nine. This is, of course, a general statement and you should research the requirements for your specific seat. And expiry is from date of manufacture, not date of purchase or first use, and the clock doesn't stop if the seat is taken out of the car and put in the basement for a few years before the next child comes along.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bmcneal* 
I don't have the manual, as DD was staying with her grandma when she outgrew the one she was in. I will check around on the shell and find out. I think I've seen it once and was wondering "what's that date for?" It's not that old, "Grandma Becky" bought it between February and May of this year. Thank you.

if you post what car seat it is, the manual is probably online somewhere (or one of the cpst's will just know).

in response to other posts on this thread (not bmneal),i am amazed that anyone would think NO car seat is better than an expired seat. Im sure NO CPST or other safety minded member would claim that and i haevnt seen it on this thread...but that doesnt mean that an expired seat is safe..its not. period.


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

This, expired seat or no seat, debate is always so illogical to me.

Children are safest when properly restrained, in a correctly installed seat that is appropriate for their age and vehicle.

The vast majority of CPST on this board are trained in the US for US laws, some for Canada, but I haven't seen others. I, nor others, can properly defend or argue what happens in most other countries regarding free or low-cost seats.

BUT, here in the US, most families in need can find a free or low-cost seat if need be. Or, they could make a hard choice, and buy one at full cost for $40 at Wal-Mart. I see parents with the new, latest cell phone, arguing with me why the $20 co-pay is more than they can afford at every months seat check for my local group. Why is that? Who knows... But I see just as many single moms, struggling to get by, who come in with seats that they paid for, full retail price, who just need help installing them. People either "get this" or they don't.

As a local Safe Kids coordinator said in response to protests about our new booster law, "(booster) seats are cheaper than rehabilitation after a spinal cord injury or a funeral. I have no patience for parents who argue that this law is an inconvenience"


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## Papooses (Dec 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ilovemyavery* 
As a local Safe Kids coordinator said in response to protests about our new booster law, "(booster) seats are cheaper than rehabilitation after a spinal cord injury or a funeral. I have no patience for parents who argue that this law is an inconvenience"

Bless you







:

I think what needs to happen is less complaining & more people helping to improve resources -- I'm a $0 income single mom in college full time but I still volunteer to make sure other needy families are as safe as mine....


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
in response to other posts on this thread (not bmneal),i am amazed that anyone would think NO car seat is better than an expired seat. Im sure NO CPST or other safety minded member would claim that and i haevnt seen it on this thread...but that doesnt mean that an expired seat is safe..its not. period.

If my only choices were expired seat or no seat, my daughter would ride in the expired seat.

The physical dangers of an expired seat -- shattered shell, harness ripping through plastic, etc. -- have already been covered. But another danger of an expired seat is a false sense of security. When parents know they have no carseat, they often make other travel arrangements or at least limit driving. But if they believe their expired seat is safe enough, they plunk the kid in and go about their business, not knowing that the child is truly unsafe.


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## Papooses (Dec 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
If my only choices were expired seat or no seat, my daughter would ride in the expired seat.

But another danger of an expired seat is a false sense of security.

Yes, the difference between reducing risks whenever at all possible & just not caring. We can't all be perfect 100% of the time. But, we can do our best. Sometimes our best is different from moment-to-moment. That doesn't mean that I should choose less than my best right now just because I couldn't do as well before. Our kids deserve more than complacency. Any parent struggling to do their very best in each moment is not complacent.


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## hipmummy (May 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tapmilkmom* 
I'm gonna be the voice of the minority here, but the moms who post the used carseasts are probably thinking,"better a used carseat than no carseat at all" and may not know that there are places you can get free carseats.

ARE there places to get used carseats? I don't know, we bought our first one, the health insurance company sent us the second one and we bought the third.????

I've gone 'round with someone here (don't remember who) about the fact that THEY would prefer NO CARSEAT AT ALL to a used/expired carseat.

Whatever. To each her own, but not for my family.









: I would never take one from freecycle (well maybe a spare booster seat ) But I have a used infant carrier. It was from my cousin and it was her back up and it was only used twice. I think if you know the history and it is up to current safety standards (recalls etc) it is a MUCH safer option than no carseat. If you are poor you are poor nothing is going to change that.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird* 
I highly doubt they would actually give car seats. I would call just to prove it to you on Sun, mon. if I remember.

Well, the US version of the organization does in some jurisdictions, so they might, or at least subsidize them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird* 
Don't know anything about freecycle Israel. I know someone has my 10 year old car seat right now. I'm wondering if I should take it back from them so their kid can be unrestrained instead.

You should advise them that the carseat is expired, and in the event of a crash, it may not protect their child, so they should do whatever they can to get a safer seat ASAP.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird* 
You don't have to own a car to take your baby or child in one, so that point is not really relevant.

You have to know someone who has a car. As I said, in some places (I've never been to Israel and know little about how cars are used there in particular), owning OR USING a car is a luxury. In those places, there's always an alternative to car use, so someone without a safe seat for their child wouldn't have to go in the car at all.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
in response to other posts on this thread (not bmneal),i am amazed that anyone would think NO car seat is better than an expired seat. Im sure NO CPST or other safety minded member would claim that and i haevnt seen it on this thread...but that doesnt mean that an expired seat is safe..its not. period.

I'm the one who speculated about the way in which an expired seat might (just might) be more of a hazard than no seat. I also pointed out that there are other considerations that might balance that risk, and make the expired seat safer. CPSTs have since posted that, in fact, the expired seat does increase safety in a crash over no restraint at all.

I also posted in that same post that it's a bit like asking if you should leave the bleach or the drain cleaner in reach of your toddler. Yes, one may be less dangerous than the other, but it's really obvious that NEITHER is safe. People don't have the same perspective on expired car seats though.


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## Papooses (Dec 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
I also posted in that same post that it's a bit like asking if you should leave the bleach or the drain cleaner in reach of your toddler. Yes, one may be less dangerous than the other, but it's really obvious that NEITHER is safe. People don't have the same perspective on expired car seats though.

I like that analogy. Many of the low income families I help, though, are literally moved to tears when they find out what could have happened the way their kids were riding. They just had no clue. Approaching them with such an analogy would not be very helpful







Just because someone is low-income doesn't mean they're stupid or uncaring. They usually have some of the most difficult vehicles to install carseats in in the first place. They usually just don't have the background or experience to realize how important reading the instructions are. So, I think this analogy is great for those who seem to *want* to choose complacency, but in my experience that is the rarity IRL. However, I suspect that people who prefer complacency are just going to role their eyes at anything that actually makes sense. We can only share the information. It's up to the parents to think it through & make a decision for the better well-being of their own kids....


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papooses* 
I like that analogy. Many of the low income families I help, though, are literally moved to tears when they find out what could have happened the way their kids were riding. They just had no clue. Approaching them with such an analogy would not be very helpful







Just because someone is low-income doesn't mean they're stupid or uncaring. They usually have some of the most difficult vehicles to install carseats in in the first place. They usually just don't have the background or experience to realize how important reading the instructions are. So, I think this analogy is great for those who seem to *want* to choose complacency, but in my experience that is the rarity IRL. However, I suspect that people who prefer complacency are just going to role their eyes at anything that actually makes sense. We can only share the information. It's up to the parents to think it through & make a decision for the better well-being of their own kids....

Oh, I totally agree. Some people are interested in the information and take it seriously; some are willing to dismiss it... and it doesn't really seem to relate all that much to income which category people fit into. I use the analogy to illustrate the point *here*, where people are saying, basically, that it's a GOOD thing that people are passing on expired seats, because otherwise the child might not have any seat. It may be marginally better, but it is far from good *enough* to keep the kids safe.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MommyJoia* 
if you have enough $ to be sitting around posting on the internet, you have enough $ to get the cheapest car seat, which has to be safer than an expired car seat. IMHO

Um, no. For the first two years I was on Mothering, I was posting from public libraries because we couldn't afford the $15/month for dialup internet, let alone a computer. There are definately mamas here who are living on the bare minumum, which is why it would be more constructive to post links to help than comments like this.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
Well, the US version of the organization does in some jurisdictions, so they might, or at least subsidize them.

Well, that site says nothing about giving car seats.

Quote:

In those places, there's always an alternative to car use, so someone without a safe seat for their child wouldn't have to go in the car at all.
Wrong. Unless you're talking about a donkey, or walking miles and miles. If you don't know the area and the situation just keep it at that.

Quote:

I also posted in that same post that it's a bit like asking if you should leave the bleach or the drain cleaner in reach of your toddler. Yes, one may be less dangerous than the other, but it's really obvious that NEITHER is safe. People don't have the same perspective on expired car seats though.
Because its not true.


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## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

ive been to Israel a few times and granted, perhaps there are places where public transportation is lacking but the places i went to all had great public transportation.

expired car seats are unsafe. it is a FACT.

why this fact needs to be debated on this board again and again is just beyond me.


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## MommyJoia (Oct 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
Um, no. For the first two years I was on Mothering, I was posting from public libraries because we couldn't afford the $15/month for dialup internet, let alone a computer. There are definately mamas here who are living on the bare minumum, which is why it would be more constructive to post links to help than comments like this.

OK, I already apologized for offending. you can go and read my previous posts.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
ive been to Israel a few times and granted, perhaps there are places where public transportation is lacking but the places i went to all had great public transportation.

expired car seats are unsafe. it is a FACT.

*why this fact needs to be debated on this board again and again is just beyond me.*

This is what I agree with.







:

My husband is from Lebanon, in the village he is from, they know nothing about car seat safety, hell they know nothing about car seats period, they simply put bouncy seats on the back seat and someone keeps it from tipping over or someone just holds the baby.

the OP was talking about people *in this country* either offering or receiving expired seats from freecycle. I personally have received expired seats, six years expired seats from freecycle. I actually called my waste management company to find out how to properly dispose of these seats so no one else would get them. I truly do feel that if you know about freecycle and you have the time to post "wanted"s for car seats on freecycle, you can do some internet footwork and find the programs to get free or discounted car seats. I love to get free stuff on freecycle, but you have to draw the line somewhere and I think it's unethical to offer expired car seats on freecycle. whenever anyone posts a "wanted" for a car seat, I write them and tell them about how they need to check the expiration dates and how it's dangerous to put a child in an expired seat. I also have written our moderator several times about the car seat situation and she has posted my warnings.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MommyJoia* 
the OP was talking about people *in this country* either offering or receiving expired seats from freecycle.

Ooh, sorry I didn't know there is a strict on topic rule for threads here. I'm a long time poster, I guess its a new rule.
Starting a new thread, please share your thoughts about the situation in Lebanon.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird* 
Well, that site says nothing about giving car seats.

Neither does the US site. And yet, in many places, they do exactly that. Availability varies regionally, and besides, some people (who have the money to buy seats) would take advantage if they publicized it more, so they don't post about it. But the program exists.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird* 
Wrong. Unless you're talking about a donkey, or walking miles and miles. If you don't know the area and the situation just keep it at that.

I know this: if it's a location where car travel is reserved to a certain socioeconomic stratum, there are a LOT of people who get around by other means. Yes, most of the world walks miles every day. Humans evolved walking an average of 10 miles a day to gather sufficient food for their daily sustenance.

I know also that I do not for one minute buy the idea that my child is more worthy of appropriate protection because my family is not poor. That's one reason why I don't think it's "good enough" for kids to ride around in expired seats because the family can't afford new ones... or worse yet, there are families that *could* afford it, but honestly think it's not worth it, because they'd have to avoid eating out for a month or two or somesuch.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird* 
Because its not true.

It actually is true. Here's some crash-test footage with a 10-year-old carseat (four years expired):






And when searching for that, I found this really good 4-minute segment. It's Canadian, not American, but the stuff they mention is basic info about used carseats:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC5if...eature=related


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
Neither does the US site. And yet, in many places, they do exactly that. Availability varies regionally, and besides, some people (who have the money to buy seats) would take advantage if they publicized it more, so they don't post about it. But the program exists.

As I said, I will contact them. And I am sure I will be told that they do not give cars seats.

Quote:


I know this: if it's a location where car travel is reserved to a certain socioeconomic stratum
It isn't. Everyone uses taxis. Which 10 years ago did not even provide back seat seatbelts.
and it isn't safe to walk on highways.

Quote:


It actually is true. Here's some crash-test footage with a 10-year-old carseat (four years expired):






The kid would still be in the vehicle. That right there is an advantage over this:


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC5if...eature=related

I'm not sure I can believe everything on that video or if its relevant to the situation outside the country of its intended audience. The seat "not manufactured anymore" is sold in Israel http://www.zap.co.il/model.aspx?modelid=492096


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
You posted a link to prices, along with the conversion; the carseats on that page appear to start around $72 US.

None of the cheaper seats have a chest clip. Isn't that unsafe?


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird* 
None of the cheaper seats have a chest clip. Isn't that unsafe?

Not necessarily. European seats don't have chest clips, due to EU requirements that a seat be able to be unbuckled with one hand or under a certain amount of time (I forget which). So they're designed completely differently. The chest clip (and this is the one thing about that second link that isn't quite useful/accurate) is only for positioning the straps on the child's body; it doesn't serve a purpose in restraining the child against crash forces.

It may just be that seats manufactured in the EU are cheaper to import to Israel.

The bottom line, though, is that the physics of car crashes are no different in Israel than in the US; the differences are all about the circumstances around and cultural attitudes toward car travel. I don't personally believe that Israeli children are less important or more difficult to injure than American children, so I would never argue that an expired seat is "good enough" in Israel if it's not here in the States.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
I would never argue that an expired seat is "good enough" in Israel if it's not here in the States.

Good point, except the arguments that people are using as why its never necessary to use an expired car seat are not as relevant in Israel. It is possible to get one to use a car seat who wouldn't otherwise by giving them mine. It isn't going to work to try and convince them to shell out 400 shekel for a seat that only use in taxis once in a while. (The person who has my seat has adopted and fostered down syndrome children and babies.) The fact is also the laws just aren't in place. Noone gets stopped for having babied improperly restrained or unrestrained.


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## Smalls181 (May 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird* 

The kid would still be in the vehicle. That right there is an advantage over this:





How is it an advantage to be strangled by the harness? You are either strangled by a harness, or thrown through a windshield.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird* 
None of the cheaper seats have a chest clip. Isn't that unsafe?

No, it is not. The chest clip is a pre-crash positioner designed to make sure the straps are in the proper position. It provides no restraint in and of itself. Seats made without chest clips (many European and Asian models) are designed to work properly without chest clips.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird* 
The fact is also the laws just aren't in place. Noone gets stopped for having babied improperly restrained or unrestrained.

According to the English language version of the SafeKids Israel site, the law IS in place, and it requires children up to age 9 to be in at least a booster. What's not in place is the enforcement, and that needs to change.

I know you're already planning on contacting Beterem; see if you can get info on a car restraint training and info session and get your friend to go with you to it. Hopefully they can help her find an affordable solution to keeping the kids in her care safe.


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## bmcneal (Nov 12, 2006)

In response to the OP about expired car seats being offered on Freecycle. (Don't want to join the debate, I don't like tomatoes)







:

My friend got a used one from Freecycle. (don't know if it was expired or not, but for the purpose she was using it, I don't *think* it would matter?) She used it so her DD could sit up in the living room while they were watching a movie, or she could feed her, or in case she had to run to the bathroom for a safe place for DD to sit. (DD had three older brothers, very rambunctious.) I don't know if it would be as big a deal (if one at all) that the seat be expired if you were using it for something like that? Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ironica* 
Hopefully they can help her find an affordable solution to keeping the kids in her care safe.

Wow. talk about being talked at. She doesn't have a car.

AFA the rest of your post. Having laws on the books is useless if no one knows (there is 0 education) the laws and no one enforces them.
I've cared about car restraint since day one with my kids and the only thing I know about laws is that recently it became law that taxi drivers have to wear a seat belt as well as back seat passengers.


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## queenjane (May 17, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird* 
Wow. talk about being talked at. She doesn't have a car.

What does that have to do w/ her post? She didnt say the kids in her caR safe, she said the kids in her caRE.

Quote:

Having laws on the books is useless if no one knows (there is 0 education) the laws and no one enforces them.
I've cared about car restraint since day one with my kids and the only thing I know about laws is that recently it became law that taxi drivers have to wear a seat belt as well as back seat passengers.

So whats the solution? Maybe you could help start an education campaign? Maybe, as someone suggested, you could contact the safekids organization and volunteer. Maybe you could pass on the links (such as the video of the expired seat and the videos of what happens w/ no seats) to your friends who arent educated on the subject. What are *you* going to do to "be the change you want to see"?

Katherine


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queenjane* 
What does that have to do w/ her post? She didnt say the kids in her caR safe, she said the kids in her caRE.

You are right. I misread.







My bad.

Quote:

So whats the solution? Maybe you could help start an education campaign? Maybe, as someone suggested, you could contact the safekids organization and volunteer.
First I have to get home. Then unpack, and make sure Dh stays healthy. Then we'll see if safe kids needs American religious women or if no one will listen to me. (Most car owners I would encounter would be non American, non religious, you'd have to understand the cultural divide to get it).

Quote:

Maybe you could pass on the links (such as the video of the expired seat and the videos of what happens w/ no seats) to your friends who arent educated on the subject.
Any friends I have who aren't educated on the subject don't have internet

Quote:

What are *you* going to do to "be the change you want to see"?
Right now I am trying to learn as much as I can and keep my own family safe and healthy, and get us all home. After that is all taken care of for awhile we'll see.


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## Blucactus (Nov 20, 2006)

I've seen this on my Freecycle too. Once a woman was asking for carseats for a friend and I took the time to email her privately and tell her why they are unsafe & possibly (? NY state?) illegal to use one they are expired. She emailed me back saying she'd had NO IDEA & was glad I'd contacted her.

<patting myself on the back>


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## juliana25 (Aug 23, 2008)

n fact, most car seats have an expiration date on one of the

manufacturer labels that can be found on the sides or bottom of

the car seat. To find out if a car seat is expired, you should

look for that expiration date label first. If there's no

expiration date listed, use the date of manufacture and consult

the car seat owners' manual. Many manufacturers give a maximum

car seat life in the manual. If not, call the manufacturer and

ask.
-------------------------------------------------
juliana

Iowa Drug Addiction "] Iowa Drug Addiction [/URL]


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## hipmummy (May 25, 2007)

Someone on my Freecycle group keeps posting two Britax Super Elites that are old (they were recalled as well). It is so annoying. I feel like emailing her but yet the three times I have done this in the past I got harrassed. Thankfully all of the people who have looked at the seats have noticed their age.


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## hipmummy (May 25, 2007)

I just emailed her asking all the usual questions pretending to be an interested party. I could just take them and like someone else said in a previous thread donate them to a training center.


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## hipmummy (May 25, 2007)

I emailed the mods and I got back the standard response
*



FREECYCLE MEMBERS USE THIS LIST AT THEIR OWN RISK. Please take reasonable measures to protect your safety and privacy when posting to the list or participating in an exchange. By joining the list, you agree to hold neither the list owners and moderators nor anyone affiliated with The Freecycle Network responsible or liable for any circumstance resulting from a Freecycle exchange or communication. Transactions are between Offerer and Recipient and will not be mediated or arbitrated by Freecycle administrators, moderators, or representatives.

Click to expand...

*


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## MommyJoia (Oct 31, 2007)

If you can get them, I would and either destroy them or donate them for training like you said.

A mom I've freecycled with before had posted a 'wanted' and 'received' for a car seat. I sent her a simple e-mail just reminding her to check the expiration date to be sure it was still safe for use. She wrote me back saying that she didn't know that car seats expired and she thanked me. It's the best I can do short of going to her house and checking myself, which I can't do because she's moved since the last time I picked something up from her.


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## UberMama (Feb 27, 2007)

I know it's not as easy on FreeCycle since you have to join the Yahoo Group. But for CraigsList, I have another email address I use to email people about car seats. I see expired ones THAT often that I signed up for another Yahoo email acct just to email people (that way they don't have my main CraigsList/FreeCycle address I use).

I've received about 4-5 harassing replies from people out of probably 200+ emails I've sent in the past two years or so. I am very nice, including a link or two and keeping it brief about expired seats and the dangers/risks. I've even offered to pick up seats near me.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

So, I contacted B'terem (even though I am not unpacked yet and dh was in the hospital last week). There is no course currently to train as a carseat safety tech.
They do not give away car seats.
They provided me with a number which is a fax and directed me to an organisation which lends medical equiptment for 1-3 months. The last car seat I borrowed from them was 11years ago and it was about 10 years old (thus expired). The branch in my city does not have car seats.


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## Astrogirl (Oct 23, 2007)

Gee, just when I thought we couldn't have any more swords in the battle of the Mommy Wars - the car seat issue with all of its hysteria and exaggerations come flying out. Nothing gets my blood pressure up higher than mothers usurping other mothers judgement (i.e. calling people lazy or accusing them of not caring about their baby as much as you do) - how sad. (I'm referring to the earlier portion of this thread)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird* 
Interesting.
Maybe in your world, your reality. Try to keep in mind your reality is not the only one.









Pretty much sums up my feelings.

Back to the freecycle debate, I know plenty of people in theatre and maybe one person in window dressing that looks for things like these as props.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

When I asked for more info because the numbr was a fax,theresponse I got:

Quote:

The organization`s name is אב"י- אביזרי בטיחות ילדים
Unfortunatly I do not have any further information on the subject.
BETEREM organization is not lending or giving away safety seats.


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## reece19 (May 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tapmilkmom* 
I'm gonna be the voice of the minority here, but the moms who post the used carseasts are probably thinking,"better a used carseat than no carseat at all" and may not know that there are places you can get free carseats.

They probably are thinking that. I'm a social worker and I've worked with children and families for years. The charity and free/reduced cost car seat resources are almost always tapped out in my community. I have spent years dealing with the 'better in an expired car seat or no car seat at all' delimma. I can't tell you how many days I have spent driving all over town trying to find a carseat for a client, just to eventually tell them to hold their baby on their lap. An expired carseat from craigslist would be preferable to that, IMO.

It's best, of course, to get the word out that carseats do expire. I'm sure there are pleny of people using 15 year old carseats because it seemed safe, not because it was a last resort.


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