# People who take Gd way too far



## EllieB (Nov 14, 2003)

I'm all for GD and everything but does anyone else just see people taking it completely too far? I feel like certain places I go mothers are trying so hard to react "correctly" to their kids behavior that they are oblivious to other people's needs. I will give a couple examples.

At the library yesterday, a young (maybe 2.5?) boy was throwing toys at other kids. His mother launched into a big discussion of this not being safe behavior, we must apologize, I don't feel good when you do this etc. Fine. Not 2 minutes later he grabbed onto a girls leg and refused to let go. Again the same discussion (while the kid is still holding onto the girl!) and then a counting to 3 until she "helped" him let go of her. Then he pushed a kid down, same discussion, which lasted at least 5 minutes. The whole time she is telling him if he can't play safe they will have to leave (and not leaving). Finally he pushed my ds (he's 14 mo) down on the floor and again the discussion. She did make him apologize and then they left, but only b/c they were leaving anyway.

How would you react to this? If this is what GD is I guess I don't do it. I would have had a discussion after the 1st incident, if my kid grabbed another kid and wouldn't let go, I would immediately pry him off, I wouldn't let him hang on while I negotiated w/ him! And if he pushed or hit anyone we would leave right away. That's how I react b/c the library is for everyone, and I don't feel my child (acting this way) should be allowed to stay if he is bothering other children and interfering w/ their fun.

Example #2. A child takes a toy away from my dd. The mom, seeing this, launches into a long discussion about this not being ok, let's give it back, do you want me to help you give it back, etc. End result, the kid doesn't give it back and my dd is upset. If my kid takes something from another kid, I will first ask her nicely to give it back, then tell her if she cannot play nicely we can't stay (these aren't personally owned toys). And if she won't give it back, I take it from her and give it back myself!

I just think I need to draw a line somewhere between my concern for my kids feelings and needs and those of other people. As much as possible I want to keep them from disturbing and hurting other kids either emotionally or physically. Where do you draw the line? Are these examples proper GD in your mind or going too far? Just curious...


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

I don't know......... I don't know if I would label that gentle discipline.

I know a woman like that and I absolutely can not STAND it. She will sit there and launch into a 10 minute explanation while her dd continues the negative behavior and the victim of the child screams and sobs uncontrollably.

I believe when kids are very young and they are infringing on someone else's rights, you act THEN talk about it. If it's something that's not too major, and the other child isn't freaking out, I'll give my child the chance to act appropriately, and if she doesn't I will do it for her.

It's about teaching respect for others; that, to me, is what GD is all about.


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## lab (Jun 11, 2003)

I hate that! I agree that sometimes it is not GD, just ineffective parenting!

I had a friend like this once. I finally came to the determination that I was allowing my children to come to harm. And I was doing it because I didn't want to offend. HEY! If I'm not going to be an advocate for my kids then who will! Well, it took a few months and a few stressful playdates but I now confront the child. Period. I do it at playgrounds too!







(I'm soooo popular!)

Seriously, I do it in a friendly kind but firm voice. You can sometimes feel the relief of the other parents. It's sad really. I've actually told children like that to go get their mom or to go sit down! I did have a confrontation with a lady at a chick fil a once. Her 8 year old was running through the equipment knocking over 2 year olds. Mine was one of them! So after repeatedly saying, "Be careful honey, there are little kids in here....... Slow down sweetie, you're going to fast........ OOPS! You knocked him over, you need to apologize...... (finally) Young Man! You need to go sit down beside your mother, you are not being considerate of the other children trying to play"

OH! That little boy went and told his mama! And she tried to get in my face!

I actually did that this summer with my neice. She threw my sons camera in the floor on purpose. Don't know why, but I watched her do it. So did her mom. She was 3 so she is young. But my 5 year son was just sobbing. She cracked his camera. And my sil just kept talking and talking. The little girl refused to apologize to my son and he was literally broken hearted. Now I understood that the kid was tired and acting out to get attention. But hey, at some point you have to learn that you can't behave that way. And if you aren't going to talk to your kid, and it has affected my kid, then that is fair game! When I realized that my sil wasn't really going to handle it, I spoke up and said "dn, you hurt ds's feelings, you need to say you are sorry. No reponse! So I told her that since she was probably tired, and since she was going to be ugly to ds then she needed to go to her room. And she did!

OK - I've gone off on a tangent! Sorry!

It's really hard to do, you just have to come to a realization that you can't allow your children to be harmed. Period. Also, I want my kids to trust me. YKWIM. I want them to understand that I will take care of them and go to bat for them.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

Drives me crazy, too. I think some kids can be reasoned with and some can't. Droning on might make the parent feel better but it often does little for the kid, who tunes it out immediately. I have one like this and early on, after reading a lot here on MDC, I was guilty of trying to reason with her too much. Now we cut to the chase and we are both much happier.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

I would perhaps go through the "Now you must consider the feelings of others" for a half-minute or so but if the child wasn't *responding* to a gentle prompting I wouldn't let it continue (I am in authority and I am obligated not to allow my child to hurt another, when the child matures he will assume self control)

If the child didn't respond I would say something like, "Joseph, you don't seem to be able to play nicely so we're going home"

If the child doesn't get to play he will learn how to play nicely.

Personally I don't think this is GD, it's LAZY parenting.

DB


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

I don't think it's lazy parenting, it's a mother trying to do her best and failing. She was trying to be gentle.

I think that there is a tendency of parents to expecting other parents to correct their agressive children and that don't protect their own children.

Where was the mother of the agressed girl in the library for instance. She should have jumped straight away to defend her child!

Quote:

Example #2. A child takes a toy away from my dd. The mom, seeing this, launches into a long discussion about this not being ok, let's give it back, do you want me to help you give it back, etc. End result, the kid doesn't give it back and my dd is upset.
Why didn't you jump straight in? "I'm sorry, but my dd is upset and the toy is hers".


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by EllieB_
*Again the same discussion (while the kid is still holding onto the girl!) and then a counting to 3 until she "helped" him let go of her. Then he pushed a kid down, same discussion, which lasted at least 5 minutes. The whole time she is telling him if he can't play safe they will have to leave (and not leaving). Finally he pushed my ds (he's 14 mo) down on the floor and again the discussion.*
I have to warn you I've had very little sleep and I'm feeling PG icky today, so please forgive me if this sounds a bit harsh but...

THIS IS NOT GENTLE DISCIPLINE.

THIS IS NOT DISCIPLINE AT ALL.

I'm really really sick of hearing this argument, that every wishy washy parent is using GD but "too much". It's not discipline at all. It's completely ineffective parenting and that is not what GD is about.

So let's not compare apples and oranges, shall we?

Call it what it is: ineffective, lack of parenting, whatever. But please don't suggest it has anything to do with GD.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

I know a woman like that and I absolutely can not STAND it.
Me too. I hate it, hate it. and i hate the word hate







:

Piglet, i see your point about apples and oranges, but i will bet you a nickle, that these ineffective parents indeed think they are doing GD, and most likely think they are doing it right.

Unfortunately, this gives GD a bad name, and truthfully, if you didnt know any better, who would want to disclipline the "gentle" way if all you saw was that?

I think its not only ineffective, but disrespectful to the other kids and their parents.


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Ive seen this lack of parenting too........and even when there is a child that is getting hurt/pushed/hit......the parent doesnt leave the 2nd, 3rd or 4th time.

It also sends a message to the other dc's that this behavior is ok. I simply avoid this type of parent/their dc's at all costs........


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

What is the point of ragging on these parents? We are all just trying to do our best as parents. Trying to get it right. If someone doesn't understand how to do gentle discipline at least they are trying! I mean, come on, there is so much out there about respecting the kids' feelings and not spanking or yelling, etc., but I don't know that there is enough information about what to do instead, and not many of us saw it modeled. And often what information about what to do instead is ineffective, at least for some kids.

I know there have been times when I've threatened to leave places because I cannot think of any other consequence and then haven't followed thru or at least not as soon as I should have. This is mostly because I am "dancing as fast I can", juggling so many things, trying to get a need or two of my own met etc. and am slow to want to follow through or am even unable to, so should not have threatened that in the first place, but didn't know what else to do. OTOH I have also often followed thru and it has been effective. Sometimes not though because she wanted to leave anyway so she didn't care.

Also, there is a lot of stuff out there about being respectful of kids and providing explanations for stuff as they are more likely to be cooperative if they understand why. Maybe these parents are trying to follow advice they've been given and are just doing their best. They have a different perspective than you do as an outside observer. I mean, it is stating the obvious, but they are emotionally involve. It is a lot easier to stand back and say what someone is doing wrong when it is not you. And yeah, sometimes you are a better parent and know better ways of handling things. And maybe people are lazy (or exhausted!!!) and ineffective, and maybe you should avoid them for your own sake. I mean, we wouldn't want to helpful, supportive and nonjudgemental or anything would we?

Does anybody ever stop and think before posting on here that some of the folks that come to this board do not have this stuff perfected yet and are trying and learning and they may be the one you saw not handling things well at the library or supermarket or whatever? Do you think it helpful to complain about their crappy parenting, saying things like lazy and that they are not a disciplinarian or whatever? Maybe you could just say what you observed and how you might have handled it differently. Pretend that the mama you saw is a student of gentle discipline and she is coming here to get some ideas.


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

You know, it really sounds like this woman was trying her best.

Would you rather she just smack her kids, or yell at her kids? That would be effective parenting, right? And WAY better than TRYING to find a gentle approach, and failing, yes?

Just because someone is having difficulty finding that perfect "GD" approach, it's okay to call her lazy, or say she's not parenting?

I don't get this! I really don't!

And as far as jumping in and reprimanding other people's children- I don't feel this is really acceptable either, unless the child is visiting YOUR house, where YOU make the rules! Take care of your kid. Protect your kid- FIRST and FOREMOST. When your child is safe, talk to the PARENT! I would only speak to a child if I had spoken to the parent, and was unable to come up with a solution that allowed my child to play safely, while their child was there.

YMMV.


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

Sofiamomma- We cross posted.

ITA. Why bother trying to change if you're just going to get bashed for not doing it "right"?


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

The OP was stating that this dc was throwing toys at another dc. If they were throwing toys at my dc......and the parent wasnt leaving after the first talk with her dc.....then its my business to step in and remove my dd.......and if my dd got hurt....then Im going to say something as I leave. Im not going to NOT say something in that instance just bc the parent doesnt know any better.

Anything less than aggression......well, thats another story.

She doesnt have to smack her kid.........but she should leave with him.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

I guess those of us who are repeatedly disrespected, day in and day out, by someone who does not discipline get really p.o.ed after a while. It's normal to feel frustrated when you and your child are not respected..... all of the time. Maybe some mamas will come here and say: "Wow, I never realized I was blatantly disrespecting others! I'll try to be a little less wishy-washy next time."


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## pamelamama (Dec 12, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by EllieB_
*Are these examples proper GD in your mind or going too far? Just curious...







*
Nah, that's not GD in my mind. The mama needs a little practice being consistent. Her threats are empty.

gotta fly. xo pam


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

I will not tolerate my child being hit, pushed or shoved. period. end of story. Again it seems like the aggressor here is given the benefit of the doubt, or explaning away of a parent "doing her best" to parent, and another womans child is crying, sobbing etc and we are being intolerant or bashing. Of course spanking, yelling, yanking isnt the answer either, but thats not my point, and i dont think the OP's either.

Why should i have to leave the sandbox with my child because of another womans poor discipline?


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Quote:

Why should i have to leave the sandbox with my child because of another womans poor discipline?

ITA!

But if the aggressor isnt leaving bc the parent isnt doing anything about it, then whats your choice? To stay there and play policewoman and watch someone else's kid so they dont hit yours again? Not worth it........


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Quote:

And as far as jumping in and reprimanding other people's children- I don't feel this is really acceptable either, unless the child is visiting YOUR house, where YOU make the rules!

If the parent of said dc is not watching for whatever reason........or repeatedly chooses to do nothing when their dc takes a toy away or whatever.........then IM GOING TO SAY SOMETHING TO THAT CHILD, esp if hes trying to take my dc's toy away from her, whether its at my house or a public playground, whether I know the dc or not.

If I dont say/do something.........who will? Until my dd is old enough than Im the one who is her advocate in these situations......

(If it doesnt involve my dc, then I dont feel its my place to say anything........)

If the parent doesnt know any better, is doing their best........how else are they going to know this behavior isnt tolerated by others?


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## guestmama9924 (Mar 16, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by lab_
*I hate that! I agree that sometimes it is not GD, just ineffective parenting!I*
ITA. Kids have the attention span of a knat- KISS ( keep it short and simple) you can use illustrative discussions for later during a quiet time, away from the situation at hand.

You can use firm, concise language that is gentle, but you must also be prepared to be proactive. "Johnny, that is her toy, please return it " end of story, and then a really nice affirmation " thanks Johnny, I knew you were good at sharing! "


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

Quote:

If the parent doesnt know any better, is doing their best........how else are they going to know this behavior isnt tolerated by others?
Well, you could try gently telling them. And if they aren't recpetive, THEN use GD on thier child.

I'm using the plural, general you now:
But I guess "f**k up" parents don't deserve to be treated gently? You should just let them, and their children "have it". And I don't mean by screaming at them. Sometimes tone can be just as damaging.

But perhaps you don't care about how other people feel? If that's the case, what makes you any better than the person who you preceive as not caring about how YOU and YOUR child feel?

Perhaps this is a tone issue...a "I can't see your facial expression online" issue, but I really am getting the impression that you would treat the "offending" child more harshly than you would treat your child. That bothers me!

I'm not saying don't say anything at all! i'm not saying let your child be a victim!

I'm not saying that you need to always take your child and leave either!

But treat other people, and their children, the way you would want to be treated- WHETHER OR NOT YOU'VE BEEN TREATED THAT WAY!

I know it's easy to get angry and frustrated. I've been on both sides of this equation. I haven't always handled it well. But I've learned, from being on the receiving end of things.


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Quote:

But I guess "fuck up" parents don't deserve to be treated gently? You should just let them, and their children "have it". And I don't mean by screaming at them. Sometimes tone can be just as damaging.

But perhaps you don't care about how other people feel? If that's the case, what makes you any better than the person who you preceive as not caring about how YOU and YOUR child feel?


I think you were directing this at everyone who didnt agree with you....myself included.

I can only say for myself.......I NEVER said and never would YELL or SCREAM at another parent or their dc....or think of them as a FUCK UP and not treat them or their dc with respect. I dont believe anyone else did here either...please post a quote if Im missing someones post.

By saying something like "that toy belongs to my dd, please let go of it" or saying to the parent "maybe you didnt notice, but your dc has hit my dc again........" or a simple "no hitting" to their dc if the parent isnt around.....these are the examples of comments I was referring to.

I would never BROW BEAT, SCREAM, OR YELL at someone..(esp a dc!) .....unless they blatenly sent their dc over to hit my dc or something equally outrageous.

Just bc we disagree with your view on how to handle this......and sound like we are fed up with these kinds of situations......doesnt mean we are all out to viciously attack another parent or treat them or their dc with anything other than how we would want to be treated.

Its a frustrating situation that alot of us face daily......... We all have to find what works for us and our dc's.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

What rainsmom said


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

I think I misread your post Breathless Wonder........you werent claiming we were screaming at these parents and thier dc's.....but using a tone that was equally as damaging.

And that is not what Im saying I do........I dont think its necessary.

How does that quote go:

Be the example you want to see............

If I want to set a positive example on how to handle these situations with GENTLE COMPASSION.......then why would I or someone else who is a gentle discipline advocate not reply gently, with compassion.

Maybe our posts sound harsh......but some of us have been faced with these situations time and time again......and our dc's are the target again and again. We come here to post our frustrations.......not to offend you


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

I don't think it's an issue of not being gentle with the bumbling mother, rather I think people are *too* polite and gentle and tolerent of these people which *feeds* into their ineptness.

How many times have *I* been the one to leave a situation because someone else's child isn't being supervises appropriately. Why should *my* child be forced to leave a public place because someone else can't figure out that talking sweetly and gently while the kid is still aggressing against another child is, ahem, ineffective and disrespectful of every one else in that environment. And it does no service to the aggressive child, either.

I have had one aggressive toddler. I know how it feels, I know how darn embarassing and challenging it is to continue with gd when others see your biting, hitting monster and just want you to give him a good swat on the tusch. But I didn't allow my son to continue while I sweetalked him. No! he learned if he couldn't control himself he was taken out of the environment.

A round or two of no play, no library, no out to lunch or *whatever* will work, trust me it will or at least give it a good try.

I don't think people are non-gentle with these parents the normal social politeness *feeds* their inept stupidity.

The most I have said in similar circumstances is along the lines of, "We must go now because this isn't a safe place to play."

Debra Baker


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## hhurd (Oct 7, 2002)

Too gentle...or not gentle enough. Sounds like a pretty clear case of damned if you do, damned if you don't!


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

Yes hhurd, that's it with parenting, and there's no turning back


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

I'm going to apologize, because I realized that I was reacting more to an event in my past, that was dredged up by this thread, than the thread itself.

When my oldest was 5, I went to our local homeschool support group gym day. I was trying to nurse my 6 mo daughter, and my son was playing less than gently with the 2 other boys his age. Neither of their parents said anything, but the mom of one of the girls playing nearby did. I got up, interrupted the baby's eating, went over and talked to my DS, it seemed to be under control, and I went and sat back down, to nurse my DD. It happened a second time, except this time, my DS had grabbed a toy from the group leader's daughter, who was sharing her toys with everyone but my DS. I interrupted the baby again, and went and talked to my DS. Again, everything seemed to be okay. I asked a parent/friend who was by the boys, if she could watch my DS. I intended on feeding the baby, and leaving. The third time it was deemed that my DS was playing to roughly, he was DRAGGED BY THE ARM over to me. The mother who dragged my DS, and the mother who led the group, proceeded to give me a verbal lashing. I was upset, and embarrassed, and hurt for my son, and myself. In retrospect, I should not have gone to the support group gym day, because I guess my DS wasn't ready for a situation like that, without me right next to him, watching his every moment, which I really couldn't do with the baby. All I remember at the time, was homeschooling was new to me, I had a young baby (who nursed constantly), I was over 1000 miles from home and family, we'd recently moved from a neighborhood we'd lived in for 4 years, to a neighborhood, 30 minutes and few towns away, where I knew no one, and my son and I were lonely.

My son is a good kid, though sometimes thoughtless and impulsive, and I struggle daily with trying to help him learn proper behavior, without resorting to the tactics my family of origin used. And I can't seem to win either way. I'm either too harsh, or to lax, depending on who you ask. My son and I are both trying but we get a lot more negative reinforcement than positive for our efforts.

So that was where I was speaking from.

But I have a feeling it won't matter to some of the posters here.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

Oh, I guess I can understand why you feel the way you do.

I had a little boy who was rough at times and I know how embarassing it can be.

I never had anyone do that to me only look down her nose at me(same woman had a son (older) who went after my daughter with a baseball bat (!) my daughter was two years younger than him and much smaller but she was able to protect herself...beat the crap out of him in fact so the woman had no business looking down her nose at me because of the behavior of my then 3yo son when she had a 12yo monster on her hands.

db


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Breathless Wonder..........after milling it over and leaving the site for awhile, I realised that it had to be something personal with you, some past event....as to why you posted what you did.

Sorry that happened to you.......... I know, it must be hard to watch more than one dc, esp with one that nurses and another that is active. Seems like thats when the older one IS more than likely to do something to get attention.

Glad you shared your experience.


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

I guess the problem is rainsmom...I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt because of that.

Sometimes that is the right approach, and other times, it sets me up for heartache.


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Quote:

Sometimes that is the right approach, and other times, it sets me up for heartache.

Yep..........I know what you mean!


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

It seems to me like the OP was a situation of GD "gone too far" - at least it was probably so in the eyes of the mother.

Honestly, I can really identify with that mother. My child has never been aggressive toward other children, but we did have situations early on where I should have followed through and didn't because I thought the follow-through was not "gentle." I felt very confused about gentle discipline, in general, because I felt that there was a specific way I was supposed to be with my child, but toddlerhood didn't make that easy (or even possible in some situations).

So I'd end up with these scenarios where ds was "acting out" (hate that term, but I can't think of a better one) and I had reached the edge of my understanding of gentle discipline and come to a point where action was required - and I just didn't feel like action was gentle. Does that make sense?

(It didn't help, of course, that the majority of gentle discipline books I had read dealt mainly with verbal children.)

Anyway, at some point I came to realize (after talking with my mom a lot, not believing her, then coming here a lot and finding that my mom was actually making some sense :LOL) that action was actually gentler and more respectful of EVERYONE than all of those words. So many words only confused my child. And I also came to realize that "gentleness" has a lot to do with my attitude while disciplining. I could carry my child out of a place in a huff, and that would not be at all gentle. Or I could remain calm and carry him out lovingly but firmly while speaking to him soothingly and that would be gentle.

Anyway, the point of all this is... well, no clue. :LOL No, really, my point is that I imagine this mama is trying her damndest to be gentle, gentle, gentle with her child. But she's probably reached the end of her bag of tricks and doesn't know where to go next. It's a very frustrating place to be....


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

So hard when they are toddlers, even very verbal ones.

BUt I think when you take action.......gentle action.......it gets the meaning across to your dc, usually, that you mean what you say or he did "something" that resulted in the consequence of having to leave. Esp when the parent is on its 2nd or 3rd time of explaining to them....and the action continues. It also helps the screaming dc that has been hit/pushed/whatever ......and the parent of said dc. Now they can stay!

I dont know about everyone else's dc, but mine watches very intently on how other dc's are disciplined.....or not, as the case may be. She talks about it in detail when we get home too!

Ps.......I get the feeling that some parents are embarrassed to discipline in public........of course, all eyes are upon them!


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## pamelamama (Dec 12, 2002)

Whenever I see a mama struggling with the very difficult job of parenting, I try to think of ways to support her in her struggle.

It's easy to criticize, but we all know it's difficult to discipline.

Empathy and outreach to other mamas is (are??) very important to me. I hope when someone sees me at not-my-very-best they understand that some days are like that.

That said, yes, I have been known to roll my eyes at the mama who tells her kid to stop throwing sand fifteen times and continues her conversation with a friend. I ain't perfect. But I will approach the child and say something. I'm like that. :X


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

I think that the types of parents the OP is referring to are afraid to be authoritative with their kids. By the way, that's not the same thing as "authoritarian." Even with GD, the parent is still the authority, and the child should know this.

So when my daughter has been waiting for AGES for a turn on the swing at the park, and the other kid's mom has said to her swinging child, "Okay, honey, time to give this little girl a turn, okay?" about six times to no avail, and now the mom is looking at me with a helpless kind of look on her face, it drives me CRAZY!!!

First of all, it's the "...okay?" that is killing the whole thing. She doesn't sound like she expects her child to comply. And the reason why he doesn't is because he knows Mommy will keep asking and not do anything about it.

If my daughter was the one on the swing, I would simply say to her, "This boy is waiting for a turn, and you've had the swing for a while. Swing for a count of ten and then it's his turn." Period. And not to sound too sure of myself, but she would do it. Because I've never been wishy-washy with her. I don't order her around like a drill seargeant (sp?), I'm pretty fair and respectful of her, but I'm the parent.

Long-winded, "gentle" discussions with a child who is infringing upon the rights of another person, and continues to do so during the discussion, are totally inappropriate. End the behavior and discuss it afterwards.


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Quote:

Long-winded, "gentle" discussions with a child who is infringing upon the rights of another person, and continues to do so during the discussion, are totally inappropriate. End the behavior and discuss it afterwards.

ITA!


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:

So when my daughter has been waiting for AGES for a turn on the swing at the park, and the other kid's mom has said to her swinging child, "Okay, honey, time to give this little girl a turn, okay?" about six times to no avail, and now the mom is looking at me with a helpless kind of look on her face, it drives me CRAZY!!!
It could have been me. And I bet your one of those parents that looks back with a calm happy smiling face while boiling inside and say nothing. How one Earth can the helpless mother have a clue? Why didn't you say something? Or maybe you could all play hide and seek together and forget all this turn taking on the swing. It bothers me how playgrounds are for socialising and parents never help their kids socialising.


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## EllieB (Nov 14, 2003)

I feel so much better after reading all these responses. I always thought what I was doing was GD but after seeing so many other parents versions of it I was starting to feel like some kind of overbearing, very strict mother for following through with my rules and being an authority figure with my kids. A couple things I wanted to mention:

It's not that I think these parents are necessarily lazy, it's almost like they have read too many books on the "right" way to talk to your child and they aren't following their own instincts anymore, just repeating a script they learned. I think many people are so afraid of messing up their kid by being too strict that they go too far in the other direction.

Of course everybody makes mistakes, of course it's better to talk too much rather than hauling off and slapping the kid. The point of my post was not to criticize that mother, I was using her as an example of a behavior that seems to be very prevalent around here. I was just kind of looking for people to affirm what I already felt- that this isn't GD it's something else, even though I'm sure that mother believes she is practicing GD. And that I'm not some kind of overbearing, authoritarian parent for reacting the way I do and not letting my kids wants interfere with other people's rights and needs.


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

I have to be honest.........I dont know if my style of parenting is GD......I havent read any books on the subject unless you count Dr. Sears. Ive read other parenting books....... Should I not have posted on this forum?? Frankly, I usually stay clear away as it almost always gets heated around here.

I choose not to spank my child, treat her with respect, use consequences as a teaching tool and stay present and be consistant. I havent the foggiest if that is true GD or not.

I have raised one child already......I know what worked and what didnt for that particular child. So I feel Im ahead of the game with this child. Trial and error. Im very lucky that this child is WAAAAAAAAAY easier than dc #1.

Dh and I follow the philosophy that dd came to join our lives......we love being with her and for her to be with us at home, in a restaurant, traveling, in someone elses home or out in public......we need to be the parent and show her how to behave, whats expected, etc etc. Maybe thats authoritarian, but it works wonderfully for us.

ok.......Im going to get off my soapbox and go hide...Ive been found out!







:


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

OK, well I'm invisible again. It happens a lot to me here.







: Anyway, my response was not to the original post, it was to the ones that followed, calling other mamas lazy, stupid, etc. And I know that people are venting the frustrations that they have with moms who are not as good at parenting as they are. *My* frustration is with parents who know something that works, but instead of being helpful, or understanding, or whatever, they just go ragging on the "bad" parent with other parents who know what they are doing. My point is that this forum may be visited by those who are still trying to figure things out. I get alternately told I am too lenient or too hard on my dd depending on who I talk to. I am sick of constantly feeling bad about myself and being near tears with all the criticism.

I'm glad you all are doing such a good job. I'm glad you all are protecting your children and advocating for them. I'm just wondering if you have to be so awful to the other parents while you're at it?


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

Hey sofiamomma!
I heard you!
In fact, we said much of the same thing!

I think most of us on MDC find it hard to go into particular forums. I have a hard time coming here very often. I know others have a hard time going into the Vax board, or the Circ board.

My advice to you is to try to avoid the vent threads for now, until you grow in confidence.

Post with questions, and be upfront about the fact that you are still learning, you are really trying, you know something isn't quite right, can someone please give you suggestions how to fix it?

Quote:

*My* frustration is with parents who know something that works, but instead of being helpful, or understanding, or whatever, they just go ragging on the "bad" parent with other parents who know what they are doing.
I totally hear you on this one! But I don't have a solution for it. I wish I did!


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## pamelamama (Dec 12, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Sofiamomma_
*Pretend that the mama you saw is a student of gentle discipline and she is coming here to get some ideas.*


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## pamelamama (Dec 12, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Sofiamomma_
*I'm just wondering if you have to be so awful to the other parents while you're at it?*










Do you think sometimes people on the boards are a little tougher than they would be IRL?


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

Maybe the difference between being on the internet vs. what you do and say IRL is part of it. That doesn't usually occur to me. Honestly, I try very hard to think of the folks on here as real people with feelings. I get mental images of them in my head and pretend we are actually talking. It is how I deal with the oddness of it all.

Perhaps you are right about staying away from vent threads. Sometimes I just can't help myself. It's like trying not to look at a wreck! I should try harder, though, esp when feeling very sad and sensitive. I really do feel more can be accomplished if we would all be a little nicer to each other, but that's just me. I feel the same way about racism and other things that offend people.

I'm sorry about what happened to you, Breathless. That is the sort of thing that really pains me. Some people are very pained by seeing children mistreated (not that that doesn't pain me, but I also feel for the parent in those situations, and some people have nothing but disgust and disdain for the adult). I am very sad for myself and for other mamas when they are obviously struggling and no one is helping or worse berating them. I am so grateful to the ladies and sometimes gentlemen who offer to help me in grocery stores, etc. if I have my hands full. Talking to and distracting a crying baby, finding something to engage my older one, or just helping to carry something. I can *tell* if someone is being judgemental of my abilities or lack thereof or if they are genuinely sympathizing with the difficulty I am experiencing and trying to help.

I have tried to post with questions. Sometimes I get awesome and very helpful suggestions. Other times it's as though nobody read it, or they did and are "speechless." I don't know, maybe I am too wordy, or worry about stuff I shouldn't. Anyway, thanks!


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

I get alternately told I am too lenient or too hard on my dd depending on who I talk to. I am sick of constantly feeling bad about myself and being near tears with all the criticism.








Sofiamomma

You'll never please everyone. If anyone thinks they have it all figured out they're wrong. Finding the balance that works for YOUR family is an ongoing process.







Maybe it would be easier if we all were just as little less judgemental of those "other" moms and instead showed a little more compassion....


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

How many times have *I* been the one to leave a situation because someone else's child isn't being supervises appropriately. Why should *my* child be forced to leave a public place because someone else can't figure out that talking sweetly and gently while the kid is still aggressing against another child is, ahem, ineffective and disrespectful of every one else in that environment
As an adult *I* have left places that were too loud and rowdy, or where 1 or 2 people were behaving in a way that I found unpleasant. It might not be "fair" or "right" but it is life. In situations with other children I do the same. If a child is repeatedly agressive against my child and it is becoming unpleasant, we leave.

We seem to expect children to 'behave' in such a way or parents 'make' them be respectful so we can all enjoy the space together. To me that just seems unrealistic. Adult situations rarely end up that way.

I am not really sure what my point is, but it just seems parents have all sorts of unrealistic expectations of how children *should* and *should not* behave at playgroups. It just seems like there is one set of expectations for adults and another for children....


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

So when my daughter has been waiting for AGES for a turn on the swing at the park, and the other kid's mom has said to her swinging child, "Okay, honey, time to give this little girl a turn, okay?" about six times to no avail, and now the mom is looking at me with a helpless kind of look on her face, it drives me CRAZY!!!
Why should the child just give up the swing? She was there first and she was having fun. I don't get it?

If you were in the middle of dinner at a restaurant and you notice a lineup would you tell your dinner companion you've been there long enough and others were waiting, so 1 more minute and we're leaving? Its their turn after all. There are such different expectations for adults and chilren, it hardly seems fair. If we don't force our child off the swing, or make him rush through a book we are criticized for it. We are probably called "bad parents" or "lazy" too


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:

We seem to expect children to 'behave' in such a way or parents 'make' them be respectful so we can all enjoy the space together. To me that just seems unrealistic. Adult situations rarely end up that way.










By the way







T you are an awesome family, I'm just browsing your website, always glad to meet a fellow UC'er







I tried EC too, but I did it all wrong, snif.


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## EllieB (Nov 14, 2003)

Quote:

If you were in the middle of dinner at a restaurant and you notice a lineup would you tell your dinner companion you've been there long enough and others were waiting, so 1 more minute and we're leaving?
I wouldn't get up in the middle of dinner, but I probably would be a bit quicker about things than I may normally be otherwise, depending on the situation and why I was there. If my child is using something another child is waiting for, I let her use it for a while, point out that another kid is waiting and ask if she wants to do something else. Like "hey this boy would like to swing for awhile, why don't we go play on the slide?" I would hope other people would have that same respect for my child if she was waiting for a turn.

I do the same for other adults. If someone is waiting for my parking space, I do get out of it as quickly as I can. If I am looking at an exhibit at a musuem and there's a line behind me, I look and move on, I don't keep standing there as long as I may if no one was there. This is just part of getting along in society and I think its important for my kids to take others feelings into consideration.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

I see too many selfish piggy adults in this culture and I see where they come from. If I knew a lot of people were waiting in a resteraunt I wouldn't linger over coffee. If someone is waiting for a parking spot I would free it up instead of sitting in my car (like the lady at the grocery store yesterday) I wouldn't block an aisle in the grocery for about 10 minutes like the two fat piggy old women in the store yesterday.

I wouldn't empty a cart full of food in the express line. I wouldn't write a check in said express line.

I see where these adults come from, from the family of the little girl who won't share the swing and has a mother who just shakes her head.

I don't get people who think the girl has a right to be selfish, perhaps the other little girl waiting for the swing has the right to knock the other off the swing to have her turn. Children have parents to teach and show good example.

If I asked my child to share in a similar situation (and we have had similar situations) they would naturally share, if they didn't I would take them home.

GD isn't let the child do whatever she wants. If children needed that then they might as well hatch from eggs and sort things out for themselves.

Debra Baker


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

I'm starting to wonder if this is a difference between GD (a general term) and TCS which is more specific and, imho, a bit extreme.

I definately believe in GD but I have trouble with some aspects of TCS.

Debra Baker


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

Shhh, Debra, that's forbidden topic here.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Well said Debra.

Quote:

Why should the child just give up the swing? She was there first and she was having fun. I don't get it?
I also feel that this is a good point as well. I am just not sure why







: :LOL But the more i think about it, i feel it can go both ways. i suppose if the child is there first, maybe he or she should be able to stay there a long while. But in my case, i would let my child have fun, then give another child a turn, because thats the decent, kind compassionate thing to do. Its not always all about "us" or "her". and like debra says, it seem a little piggy to me if a child continues to swing endlessly, although having a great time, while other children who come to the playground for the same fun have to wait and possibly not have a turn. As so many people have pointed out here and on other threads, where is the respect if you dont give a child a turn?

But then again, this is the "me" generation, the here and now. To another mom, why should her child need to get off the swing and stop monopolizing it? why should her child get off the little rocker horse? Then again, maybe she doesnt let someone merge in traffic, hold a door open for someone.

I see it all the time where i work, in Target, you name it. And even here.


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

Ok, what is with that park in the first place that only has 1 (one) swing?


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

We are fortunate---we live in a neighborhood that has a ton of parks within a short walking distance of each other. But they each have ONE baby swing and ONE regular swing! I'm willing to bet the person who designed these was someone who has never actually spent time at a playground waiting for a turn on the swing!








:


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Sofiasmomma........I think it would be unrealistic to expect a thread called PEOPLE WHO TAKE GD WAY TOO FAR......to be anything but a vent. This is a place for people to discuss things that work, things that dont and why it is so frustrating IRL.

When I see a mama, struggling with a parenting style that clearly isnt working......my first impulse is to help, to suggest, to model. But in my experience, those suggestions are usually met by resistance or worse, anger. I think other moms here have faced that too. Its human nature. WHen I was a single mom in my 20s, I moved 500 miles away from well meaning relatives who kept telling me I was doing everything wrong. I wanted to learn for myself what worked. Sometimes it is only with confidence that we seek out advise from those we know seem to have a handle on this thing called parenting. If it looks easy for some......well, youre catching them on a good day, believe me.

I think this thread has been very informative. We've come from bitching about mothers who do things that are obvious to everyone in the room arent working........to sympathizing with a mother who was blasted bc she was trying to do what was best for one at the moment..... Sometimes some of us come to bitch and complain, bc we dont have anyone to bitch and complain to. Some of my closest mom friends.... I would never offer my advise to........but here, I can offer opinions, share my experience, vent, laugh and expose myself in ways I never can IRL.

My point............oh.....where was I? ..........well, its this place isnt meant to strike out at other moms......we are actually looking for support, even when we are venting about frustrating things that we feel powerless to change.


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

I let her use it for a while, point out that another kid is waiting and ask if she wants to do something else. Like "hey this boy would like to swing for awhile, why don't we go play on the slide?" I would hope other people would have that same respect for my child if she was waiting for a turn.

This is a great way to respond, but if your child says no? Its one thing to encourage kindness, its another thing to force it. I also wouldn't wait in line and expect the other child to get off for my child, I would play with him on another peice of equipment until the swings cleared up.

Quote:

If my daughter was the one on the swing, I would simply say to her, "This boy is waiting for a turn, and you've had the swing for a while. Swing for a count of ten and then it's his turn." Period. And not to sound too sure of myself, but she would do it. Because I've never been wishy-washy with her. I don't order her around like a drill seargeant (sp?), I'm pretty fair and respectful of her, but I'm the parent.

This is the part I was referring to, forcing a child off a swing in the name of "respect" just doesn't make sense to me. If I treat MY child with respect he is learning to respect others.

JMO


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

I see too many selfish piggy adults in this culture and I see where they come from.

Quote:

I see where these adults come from, from the family of the little girl who won't share the swing and has a mother who just shakes her head.

Maybe the selfish adults come from families where they are forced to share.
Maybe the little girl doesn't get to go to the park very often.
Maybe she is scared of the slide and only really likes the swing.
Maybe there are family problems and the mom is just trying to re-connect with her dd at the park.
Or maybe they are horrible, selfish people who like to monopolized the swing








Instead of passing judgement on these people and dooming them to a life of selfish piggy-ism why not just find something else to play on. I try to model good behaviour to my ds'. I cannot control situations, only how I react to them That would include not judging the other mother or child.

Quote:

If I asked my child to share in a similar situation (and we have had similar situations) they would naturally share, if they didn't I would take them home.
I would never force my child to share or go home. That feels like punishment to me. I don't make him share, period. You know what, he shares anyway. He learned from watching us, we share everything we own (well, just about). At storytime, if he notices another child wants the book he is reading he will bring it to them when he is done with it. Not because I tell him he will share it or we go home, but because he has had the opportunity to learn about it on his own. He sees the value in sharing because it makes the other child happy, not because Mama expects him to. He is not growing up to be a "selfish piggy", he is growing up to be a thoughtful, caring, compassionate boy







Kids deserve more credit then they are given.

JMO


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

By the way you are an awesome family, I'm just browsing your website, always glad to meet a fellow UC'er I tried EC too, but I did it all wrong, snif.
Thanks









My EC'ed boy has still not "graduated" so I think I did it wrong too :LOL

I like meeting UC'ers too!

Laurie


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## brandywine (Mar 25, 2004)

We were once part of a palygroup co-op with lots of GD moms, and one kid in particular really acted aggressively toward other kids. His mom would sit on the sideline and count at him while he pulverized some younger kid. He only got my kid once because after that I sayed within arms reach of my little ones. I mentioned the problem to the co-op chairperson and she said that yes, it was a problem, but that the offending mom had been gently reminded that this was a place for all children to feel safe blah blah blah. When I complained a second time, she basically told me that the mom was a founder and big financial contributor to the group and that I would just have to get used to it. The thing is, even if I rescue my kids, they still have to watch this kid beat up on everybody else! I don't let them watch violent TV, why would I make them witness this? We left the group after two months, when we had paid for a year long membership. Sometimes I wonder if I should have maybe said something to the mom directly, instead of just dealing with her kid.


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Thats a really unfortuneate situation you were in Brandywine.!

If I had made up my mind to leave the group.......I would have said something to the mother in question. were there other mothers who felt the same as you? Because sometimes if you present as a group, that has more affect than just one new member complaining about something. Just another example where we feel we cant complain and feel uneasy about doing so for fear of what that persons reaction will be.


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## Mona (May 22, 2003)

akirasmama
What wonderfully thoughtful posts....
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

To those asking why we feel it's okay to rag on these moms and not tell them to their face (kindly, of course):

I have said something. Many, many times. I've had tons of discussions with one friend over the past four years because she ignores her child and lets her do whatever she wants. I cannot count the number of times her child has pushed my dd head-first into the concrete, taken her toys, hit her, and generally aggrevated my dd to no end.

Her response? "Oh, I've never noticed that! Please, if you see it happening, say something!"

So I say something. For example: my dd is playing on a "pillow bridge" that she built and her "friend" feels like teasing her. So she sits on the bridge and refuses to move, laughing as my dd gets more and more upset. Mom: "L, you get off of there right now." "Okay, L, you have until the count of three... one, two, three!" "Okay, L, I said move..." After literally five minutes of this crap, as my dd screamed hysterically, my mom friend laughed and said, "Oh, just let them work it out for themselves."









Moms like this teach blatant disrespect. And it doesn't matter what you say to them; they are in denial and don't want to see it. I'm sorry if my observation seems like "ragging", but I've watched this child - and others her age - get older and no one can stand to be around them. NO ONE. If observations make me judgmental of others, than so be it


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

Why didn't you pick up YOUR child, and remove her, and THEN deal with the situation?

I'm curious, and please read the tone as such.

As an outside observer, it seems like you were angry because your daughter got hurt/upset.

I understand that this is a pattern, but I'm having a hard time differentiating between the mom of the agressor, allowing her child to continue being an agressor, and the mom of the victim allowing her child to continue to be victimized?

Neither one is stepping in...


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## EllieB (Nov 14, 2003)

Quote:

I would never force my child to share or go home. That feels like punishment to me. I don't make him share, period
It's not about (to me anyway) *forcing* a child to share, but strongly encouraging it, and if they don't want to share that day we're better off playing at home where they don't have to.

My feeling has always been that in a public place, the toys there are there for everyone, the swings are for everyone, the slide is for everyone. When we go to these places we go to play with and share with others. That's why we go. If my kids refuse to share, to get off the swing when someone else wants a turn or whatever, yes I'd take them home, not so much as a punishment but b/c that's why we went in the first place! To interact with the other kids and play cooperatively. If they don't want to be doing that, they may just as well have stayed home and played on their own swingset, or with their own toys which they are free to monopolize as they wish (they don't have many toys they both like to use).


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Leonor_
*Ok, what is with that park in the first place that only has 1 (one) swing?







*
You know, when I was posting that swing example, I was wondering when someone was going to notice that.









It doesn't have one swing; it was just an example! I could have used other real-life examples but this one was simplest.

I don't think the child on the swing should immediately give it up, of course not. But I do think that when another person is waiting for a turn, a child shouldn't be allowed to "hog" something as long as she wants. The restaurant example that was given fits well - if I saw a long line of people waiting for tables at the door, I wouldn't linger too long after my coffee. I think that's just simple consideration.

I have actually been in situations where I stopped a mom from making her child give up his turn too soon. For example, my daughter comes up to a thing at the children's museum right after another child, and the other mom tells her child to give DD a turn now. I'll say, "That's okay, he just got here, she can wait for him to be done with his turn."

And Leonor, you asked why I don't say anything to the mom when a kid won't give up her turn...I do say something, but usually to the child, not the mom. I might say, "Hi, my daughter's been waiting for a while for that. Would you mind giving her a turn, please?" It's amazing how that often works well, and how relieved the mom looks that I took care of it for her...







:


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

Hey, can we talk about sharing/ turn taking over here?
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...hreadid=130183


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

So, what is an appropriate time for one child to be on the swing when others are waiting? Five minutes? That is a long time for the children who are waiting. Two minutes? Not really long enough to swing.

What if you let your dc have the swing for five minutes because someone else is waiting, and then that child refuses to give up the swing after five minutes (and his mom won't make him, either!)? Then what does your child learn - that she has to treat people in a certain way, but they don't have to give her the same treatment? My child is not old enough for "well that's the harsh reality of life, you get screwed over sometimes, now get over it" messages.

When I'm using a public restroom, pay phone or parking space, I'm entitled to all the time I need, even if people are waiting. The amount of time one adult needs in the bathroom will be different than what another adult needs. One phone conversation may be a different length than another one. One child's time with a toy may be different than the amount of time another child needs.

But, if it's a public place with group toys, I do try and encourage a little bit of sharing. If dd can't handle it we go to another park with fewer children. I don't take her there to socialize, I take her because she likes to climb on the equipment. I am fortunate enough to live in a small town with several parks.

If it's a child's own personal things, I don't expect anyone to share. Last time we were at the park there was a boy with a huge pile of sand toys all to himself. DD tried to grab one. I told her, "No, those are his. We don't grab other peoples' stuff." It didnt' matter that he had enough to share - why should he? If some stranger decided that while I was at the park he was going to sit in my car, I would not be spouting a happy message of sharing one's belongings.

But I agree with the OP; I can't stand it when other parents don't do anything about their kids' behavior even when it violates the rights of others. I've had to leave public places because kids were climbing on me and trying to take things from me and their parents would not stop them. It's not really fair that I'm the one who has to go when I was just minding my own business, but what else can I do? I haven't been able to make the leap into physically disciplining another's child (and I don't mean spanking, I mean just picking him up and putting him near his mother)!


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Quote:

Why didn't you pick up YOUR child, and remove her, and THEN deal with the situation?


Ive witnessed this scene many, many, many times.........and sometimes the victim child is removed, simply cos her mom has waited, given the other child the benefit of the doubt, waiting for the other parent to step in......BECAUSE FRANKLY, the aggressor should be removed, the aggressor should be watched by his own parent, the aggressor should have to leave.....thats what happens to adults who cant behave in public places, they are asked to leave, they are reprimanded or spoken to by people of authority or people sharing the space that are being bothered by said person. And usually, the parent of the aggressive child is paying NO ATTENTION to this child.....which is why this child is acting out in the first place (or one reason anyway).

If you know your child can play roughly sometimes, has moments of aggression, cant share toys, or has issues with needing your attention and finding negative ways to get it.........why cant you pay attention to your child so others dont have to be subjected to it......b/c at age 2 or 3, sorry, kids arent old enought to "work it out". If my child had this disposition, I would either stay home with them ...... or keep a sharp eye out and be ready to intervene so other people wouldnt have to leave or feel they needed to say something to me to get my attention.

sorry, JMHO........again.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*What if you let your dc have the swing for five minutes because someone else is waiting, and then that child refuses to give up the swing after five minutes (and his mom won't make him, either!)?*
ITA with most everything you said, Greaseball, but just wanted to comment on the "harsh realities of life" segment. I think that when your child is respectful of another child and that child is not respectful back, it's life's way of teaching your child that he/she can only control his/her own behavior. That happens to us sometimes because ds is one of those kids that loves to share and seems to get joy out of giving other kids their turn. With the swing example, I tell ds that I'm very sorry but it doesn't look like the other child is ready to give the swing up. And I sympathize with him: "You would really like to go on the swing, I know. You're upset that this child doesn't want to give the swing up. It's frustrating when people don't give you a turn when you would like." If he's open to it, I suggest we do something else until the swing is free. If not, I continue to sympathize and give him the support he needs to get through the disappointment. There's no, "Hey kid, life's tough. Get over it." That wouldn't be respectful of his feelings. The lesson takes care of itself. But knowing that the lesson is lurking out there waiting to rear it's ugly head isn't reason, in and of itself, to not suggest sharing. (Note I say encourage, not force. I don't think forcing sharing is ever proper. But with ds, I only ever have to suggest and he does it with gusto.)

That said, I'm with you and akirasmom. I don't force ds to share and I don't force him to get off a swing if he's not ready. (Of course, we're also lucky in that most of our local parks have a good number of swings so it doesn't happen too often that they're all full). I model sharing and turn-taking and try to model waiting patiently (though not always successfully), and when he's in a situation that might call for turn-taking, I've noticed that he's always one of the first to institute the turn-taking protocol on his own.

It's been my experience that children who are forced to share when their parents are lurking are least likely to do it on their own.

Man... that post was all over the map. :LOL


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

I completely agree with you, rainsmom. Parents SHOULD watch their aggressive children. But they don't always.... I think that's where this conversation is hitting some bumps. The people who are suggesting that the victim take action or leave are looking at the reality of the situation, while those wanting the aggressor's parent to do something are, unfortunately, looking at the ideal.

FWIW, I've found it's often helpful to say something to the aggressor myself - whether his/her parent is in earshot or not. There have been a few times when ds has been threatened by a bully on the playground and I've stood up for him because the bully's parents are sitting on their lazy, oblivious rumps. IMO, this isn't meddling in someone else's affairs or parenting someone else's child. It's advocating for my ds - showing him that he is worth advocating for and, so, empowering him. Usually, a very sharp, loud, "Ds, you can tell him, "STOP PUSHING ME! IT'S MEAN AND I DON'T LIKE THAT!" serves the purposes of a) letting my ds know what he needs to say in such situations, b) letting the bully know that he's being watched so he better straighten up and c) alerting the bully's parents that their child is being a PITA. If that doesn't work, I speak directly to the aggressor as I would my own child. And since I speak to my child respectfully, the shock value of being spoken to that way is often enough to stop the aggressor from continuing the behavior.


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

ITA Dragonfly......Im preaching to the choir to some........and trying to understand where others are coming from in their rationale.

Of course, the reality is we parents of dc's who end up being bullied....have to step in, have to watch constantly and have to leave when the parent of the aggressor does nothing, or isnt watching or thinks the kids can work it out.
Thats what we do too.

Im just stating the obvious......wouldnt it be nice if the other parent took action? Or at least watched what their dc's were doing??


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

Quote:

_Originally posted by EllieB_
*It's not about (to me anyway) *forcing* a child to share, but strongly encouraging it, and if they don't want to share that day we're better off playing at home where they don't have to.

My feeling has always been that in a public place, the toys there are there for everyone, the swings are for everyone, the slide is for everyone. When we go to these places we go to play with and share with others. That's why we go. If my kids refuse to share, to get off the swing when someone else wants a turn or whatever, yes I'd take them home, not so much as a punishment but b/c that's why we went in the first place! To interact with the other kids and play cooperatively. If they don't want to be doing that, they may just as well have stayed home and played on their own swingset, or with their own toys which they are free to monopolize as they wish (they don't have many toys they both like to use).*


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by rainsmom_
*Im just stating the obvious......wouldnt it be nice if the other parent took action? Or at least watched what their dc's were doing??*








It would be WONDERFUL. Fortunately, we don't run into too many situations around here where children are behaving aggressively. (Usually, it's the parents behaving rudely - driving like maniacs, not holding doors or not saying thank you when my sweet little 3-year-old uses all of his strength to hold the door for them, the list goes on...). At the playground, we're more likely to run into situations where parents are all over their children, micro-managing their every move, not allowing them to be kids.

But when we do encounter the other, the only way I've found to alleviate my own frustration with the situation is to look at it as an opportunity to teach and empower my own child. I find that if I keep that goal in mind (though it's sometimes very difficult because what I really want to do is kick the parent in the shin :LOL), I can quite often turn what would be a really negative experience into a positive one and we come out of it all the better.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by EllieB_
*It's not about (to me anyway) *forcing* a child to share, but strongly encouraging it, and if they don't want to share that day we're better off playing at home where they don't have to.*
With all due respect, EllieB, I think this is a distinction without a difference. Maybe you're not taking the toy out of their hands and forcing them to hand it over, but you're telling them (by making them leave) that they are absolutely required to share or they will not be allowed to play there.

BTW, I'm not condemning this as a parenting practice. You do what works for you, right? I just think it's important to recognize that the end result is pretty much the same.


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

I know some moms who have had to deal this alot more than I have....usually Im witnessing it happening to other dcs.

But one good thing HAS come of these experiences........dd has learned to use her words and alot of times SHE handles the situation before I step in. Not always, but alot of times.


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

FWIW I never said I expected this to not be a vent thread. My whole point in all of this is that the mothers in the original example were not doing nothing, they were doing something that doesn't work well. I think, from the sound of it, that they were trying to follow their interpretation of gentle discipline. They are likely moms who might come here and see how some of the more experienced moms think of them: stupid, lazy, inept, fat, piggy, oblivious, ineffective, etc.

I am sometimes oblivioius to stuff dd is doing because I am so happy to be having a converstion with another adult. Or I have different value judgements about what is going on or I am not having a good day or whatever. A PP listed a bunch of reasons why a child might not be sharing that day. All things to consider. I am only saying, please give other moms the benefit of the doubt. That's all. The driver that cuts you off in traffic could just be a selfish @**hole, or could be someone responding to an emergency. You just never know. You never know why someone else is doing something or where they are coming from. You are not in their skin or their head.

I understand people have a huge problem with parents of aggressors not reigning them in. I have a problem with using words like the above for other people when their situation is not known. The world is full of jerks, but it is also full of good people trying to their best with what they have and who may not be having a good day, or whatever.

I *know* you all are not talking about me. I hear you. I knew that before anything was said by either of us. I am trying to let you know that you could be talking about me and not realize it.


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Point taken!


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Ok, I jumped in on this thread way too late so I apologize that I haven't read every single post and I may be repeating what someone else said.

The situation that the OP stated - way irritating. I think talking and using words is great but it's never appropriate to get into a long winded (usually one sided) discussion with a young child. They need things more brief and simple or it's just lost on them. That kind of parenting is what they called Permissive when I took Child Development. Also, from the studies done, children who were raised wth Authoritarian Parents (this doesn't usually involve children in decision making, usually includes yelling, spanking etc.) had better outcomes than the children of Permissive parents. This is not to say Authoritarian parenting is good or ok, but just to make a point about how not being consistent, not setting any limits or boundries, not ever following through with natural consequences etc. is not good for children. They're trying to feel out the world around them and if it can be really scary for them if the parent isn't guiding them properly. That's usually why you'll find children who are parented as such just keep escalating their behavior. They're trying to find 'where does it end?' 'when do I get stopped?' That's why children test the limits and boundries. They do indeed want (and need) to find them. Also, parents like this are doing their children no favors. Children do need to know about the "real world." When people don't like what you're doing to them, they're going to get upset. When you take something from someone or hurt someone, they're not going to like it and they're going to react. Ok, I'm really rambling here - am I making any sense?


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

Quote:

If my child had this disposition, I would either stay home with them ...... or keep a sharp eye out and be ready to intervene so other people wouldnt have to leave or feel they needed to say something to me to get my attention.
This would live some parents completely housebound... For example, like a mom with a new baby, and an "agressive" older child.

I know that in the best of all world's the agressor would get removed, but I'm having a hard time understanding why you don't remove your child from harm's way, and address the behavior with the parent and or child, while keeping your child safe? It seems, from some of the posts, that you give the agressor the "benefit of the doubt" and then you're angry when your child continues to be hurt? You only say something when you hit your boiling point?

I'm just having a hard time understanding this!

Maybe I'm misreading?


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Sometimes being housebound is necessary. If dd doesn't behave reasonably in a public place, we just don't go. I haven't taken her to the grocery store in over a year.

She used to have a problem with pulling on other kids' eyelids. She was only 7 months, so I couldn't really reason with her. I just had to stop taking her places with other kids around, unless she would be happy to just be held.

Now her thing is to scream at other kids if they get within a certain distance of her. If she does that, I'll step in once, but if she does it again, we go home.

I can see how this wouldn't work for single parents, though.


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

OK, I'm going to bow out.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

A child takes a toy away from my dd. The mom, seeing this, launches into a long discussion about this not being ok, let's give it back, do you want me to help you give it back, etc. End result, the kid doesn't give it back and my dd is upset. If my kid takes something from another kid, I will first ask her nicely to give it back, then tell her if she cannot play nicely we can't stay (these aren't personally owned toys). And if she won't give it back, I take it from her and give it back myself!
I haven't read any of the replies, but I want to say that I have had this exact same problem, and it bugs me. It ends up meaning that my ds always has to give it back, but never gets it back, which I don't think is fair.

The only thing in your post that I disagreed with is that we immediately leave if he hits someone. If he continues to hit (which has never happened), we would leave. But not if it just happened one time.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that I too have had problems with people who don't force their kids to give the toy back that was snatched from ds, and it really irks me.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

My point here is, I have said something. Many times. Very respectfully.

If you read my other post, you will see that I gave this mom and her daughter the benefit of the doubt after MANY discussions about this issue. She still chose non-action.

Do I remove my own child out of my own house?

Perhaps kick the "offending" duo out of my house?

Or, at that point, do I step in and discipline someone else's child?

None of them seem like the right answer. There comes a time when you realize that some people just don't "get it" and they don't want to. This particular mom can be very disrespectful of others, so I can definitely see why she thinks it's an okay behavior. It's just sad she's passing that trait on to her children.


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:

Also, from the studies done, children who were raised wth Authoritarian Parents (this doesn't usually involve children in decision making, usually includes yelling, spanking etc.) had better outcomes than the children of Permissive parents.
Be careful with these studies, they are not very scientific or accurate. My experience says the oppositte.

I had very authotitarian parents in my teens - not violent but very consistent and boundary - and I don't want to go into details, but I almost lost my life.

Friends that had permissive parents in their teens enjoyed their lives, are now doing alright, and many have their own businesses already in their mid twenties!

I don't think it's about permissivness or authotiry, not even balance bettween the two, it's about helping. A parent should be a helper, not a random rule maker.


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## EllieB (Nov 14, 2003)

_originally posted by Dragonfly:_

Quote:

With all due respect, EllieB, I think this is a distinction without a difference. Maybe you're not taking the toy out of their hands and forcing them to hand it over, but you're telling them (by making them leave) that they are absolutely required to share or they will not be allowed to play there.
I do see a difference between forcing a child to share and encouraging them to share with the implication that we will have to leave otherwise. The difference is in the attitude I approach the situation with.

I do not approach it with an attitude of "You will share or we are leaving". My attitude is "Well if you don't want to play with the other kids today lets go play at home". I don't feel angry at them for not wanting to share, I think that's completely natural, especially for kids as young as mine. But at the same time, public places necessiate (in my mind) a cooperative, inclusive spirit so everyone (not just my kids) can enjoy themselves. If my kids don't feel cooperative and don't want to do the give and take to make the experience enjoyable for all, we go home and they can play independently there. And that's perfectly ok in my mind, maybe they just need some downtime. So that's how I see it- the difference between forcing and strongly encouraging is in the attitude I have when I do it, that it's ok and normal to want to play alone and monopolize something, but not in a place meant to be shared by all.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

Studies seem to indicate that neither authoritarian nor permissive parenting has the best outcomes but rather a more moderate authoritative parenting style in which the parent is in authority but considers the feelings and perspective of the children.

Again it's balance.

Debra Baker


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Yes, they called it Democratic Parenting that was the best. It's probably equivalent to GD.


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## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

Yes, there is a difference between authoritarian and authoritative. Authoritarian is not democratic at all - it's more of a dictatorship. Authoritative parents make it clear that they set the rules and limits and expect children to follow them, but they are fair and respectful and considerate of the child's feelings.

Just wanted to clear that up.


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

I thought that in a democracy people voted to chose a leader and the majority won.


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

This was just what they called it in the Child Development text books. I guess they named it that meaning everyone's voice is heard?


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I practice something that could be called democratic, where everyone has equal rights as long as they don't violate the rights of another.

Isn't that what we envision in a perfect society?


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Leonor_
*I don't think it's about permissivness or authotiry, not even balance bettween the two, it's about helping. A parent should be a helper, not a random rule maker.*
I absolutely agree that parents should not make random rules. But I do think that parents should use their significantly more extensive life experience to outline boundaries that will help their children function in society and be open about why those boundaries have been set (with room for negotiation, of course). IMO, to do anything else is not really helping your child. Of course, this can be taken too far...


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Dragonfly_
*I absolutely agree that parents should not make random rules. But I do think that parents should use their significantly more extensive life experience to outline boundaries that will help their children function in society and to be open about why those boundaries have been set (with room for negotiation, of course). IMO, to do anything else is not really helping your child.*








Well said!


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## almama (Mar 22, 2003)

After witnessing the long saga and then having my own child push, I would do the taboo thing of gently suggesting to the mom that her child needs to leave the area. I don't think it is fair to other kids to be subjected to that. Perhaps the boy was having a really bad day and simply did not want to be in the library. He was showing all the signs that he did not want to act appropriately. Who knows what kind of parent or what kind of kid he is, but it sounds like he was in the mood for a gym class and not the library.

When I had hitting issues with my son at 2, I always told him beforehand that he if hit then he was showing me that he wanted to leave. I'd rather he told me, but we'd leave nonetheless.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

DS was three months old and I took him to the local pool to soak in the toddler splash area. A couple of rambunctious 5-11 yos were throwing a ball around the toddler pool and nearly hit me and him a few times. I stood up when one got too close and went "HEY!" They stopped for a few minutes then started again. Worse.

My son got hit in the face by a ball by those two brats. Grandma, I guess, grabbed the one boy and took him away. The other I think was with them. So I went over to the lifeguard and told her what happened and she ignored me!

MY SON GOT HIT WITH A BALL IN THE FACE AND I WAS IGNORED?

After about 15 more minutes, I got pissed and left and I bitched at the front desk about the "accident" (yah right) and marched out furious.

Went back to the same pool a week or so later and once again a couple of 8-11 yo were throwing the same ball around. In the toddler pool. With young kids in it.

And when I was just missed for the third time, I grabbed the ball and stopped the game and complained again to the lifeguard. She refused to put the ball away, so I complained to her supervisor.

When he refused to put the ball away and even said that it wouldn't hurt anyone (sure, not an adult, but an infant???), I threatened to put it in my locker. At that point, they realized that I was serious and did put it away. Steamed, I left within half an hour telling off the staff again.

I wrote a letter to the parks and rec supervisor who basically swept it under the rug and didn't even bother to really deal with my concerns. My son got hit and NO FIRST AIDE WAS GIVEN EVEN WHEN I NOTIFIED THE LIFEGUARD! I was not happy. My son had thankfully not been badly injured and barely startled. The parents of the boys who were playing way too rough didn't stop their kids from injuring my child once and possibly injuring him and other kids again. I was livid and furious that my concerns were not taken seriously.

I did get 4 free passes though.









The next time I went there, once again, a bunch of kids, this time teenagers, were playing with a giant ball in the toddler pool. I used my loudest and firmest mommy voice and told them to take it to the other pool there are babies present! Within 20 minutes, younger kids, again 5-11 showed up and once again, those balls were out in the toddler area - the same ones that hit my son - so since there were no parents from what I could tell (gotta love Christmas break) I left.

And I wrote another nasty letter. This one ignored.

I should have destroyed the ball to make my point the first time and handed it to the lifeguard's supervisor saying "now it will never hurt a baby again!" What really pissed me off about that pool is the lifeguard station is set where the lifeguard's back is permanently facing the toddler area. They can't see what's going on and it is not a place for horseplay. I'm amazed no one has gotten hurt.

If adults aren't willing to actually take a parent's concerns seriously, why the hell do we trust those same ones with our children's safety?


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

If my kids don't feel cooperative and don't want to do the give and take to make the experience enjoyable for all, we go home and they can play independently there.
But how will they learn how to become cooperative unless they have the opportunity to learn in real life situations? Talking about sharing and what happens when you do/do not share is one thing, experiencing it first-hand is quite another. No child will be permanently damaged from not getting a turn with a toy, in fact they will likely be learning the "rules" of the playground. Going home whenever you think they are not sharing appropriately deprives them of learning the lessons on their own.

JMO


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:

If adults aren't willing to actually take a parent's concerns seriously, why the hell do we trust those same ones with our children's safety?
You DON"T trust them with your child's safety.

If every time you go somewhere they demonstrate that your safey or your child's safety is at risk why would you go back? Sure its not fair, life is not fair.

There seems to be some notion that life is ideal and there are certain things that "should" happen when we are in a public place. If that was the way things *really* worked there would be no rudeness, no daily hassles, no crime. Sometimes we have to miss out on things because its not an environment we choose to be in.

Our responsibility is to our child (and their safety) first and foremost. That means a different pool, a different playgroup, a park with more swings, whatever, might sometimes be necessary. That's the way it goes sometimes.


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## sunbaby (Sep 30, 2002)

i am only going to respond to the op- ellieb, was this a vent or are you really looking for people to tell you wether they think these are examples of gd or not? if you want my answer, i'll tell you. if this is just a vent then pls excuse me








.

anyway, i think in the first example of the mom basically allowing her kid to behave violently, and maybe wanting to handle it better but not knowing how, sticking to her guns a bit and leaving the scene as she threatened would have been more effective, and safe.

in the second example, well i dont know. my child has been known to take things from other kids, and i talk with her about it. i make suggestions, like maybe say, 'see how upset that dc is, i think we can make her feel better if we give back the toy', 'maybe you can ask nicely if she will take turns', 'maybe you can negotiate a trade', etc, untill dd figures out a way to work it out with the other kid. because honestly, i think at some level, we have to give kids skill for sharing and negotiating, and just forcing it upon them by prynig stuff outa their hands may not serve this. i cant ever remember a time dd didnt eventually give a 'stolen' toy back, and i like that she comes round to it on her own. actually the times i have tried the pry-it- outa- their- hand method, she just got madder and meaner. i think it is not appropriate to force something out of her hands when that is exactly what i am asking her NOT to do to the other kid. i have a very strong instinct against using physical force with dd except in instances that require it to keep everyone safe.
i also think this gives the other kid a chance to learn to express themself, how upset and angry they are and if my dd is the wronged child i will help her find words to confront the kid who took her toy, and cheer her on when she is doing well. if the other mom just steps in right away, dd has been robbed of a valuable opportunity for some assertiveness training.

JMO








edited to add, sorry if i've repeated anyone, i skimmed through the thread but may have missed some.


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Dragonfly_
I absolutely agree that parents should not make random rules. But I do think that parents should use their significantly more extensive life experience to outline boundaries that will help their children function in society and be open about why those boundaries have been set (with room for negotiation, of course). IMO, to do anything else is not really helping your child. Of course, this can be taken too far...
Ok, random rules was not a good way to put it. Parents do use the best information they have when making rules. They can think a child is better off sleeping early, so it's well rested the next day. The problem is children might agree or they might just submit to it, because they don't really have a choice.

I think there is nothing worse than an authority that thinks that is not an authority. That's why I twist my nose to that "authoritative" theory. My parents were like that. What does it matter if I had a say and my feelings were taken into consideration, if they had the final decision?

Democracy is a bit like that nowadays, but that't not the ideal democracy yet. Sometimes I think it's a clever kind of fascism. People go out to the streets and protest, for instance, but the president has the final say.

I believe there is a problem with this. There are things that we are almost certain about, like fire burning, other things we don't know well enough and might even be mistaken.

A well intentioned parent might force her child to coat herself with sunscreen and later the child can read that suncreen actually doesn't protect against harmful sunrays, it just stops the skin from having burns. Skin cancer is on the rise.

Parents don't universally agree with rules. What is right for one family is not right for the other. If you tolerate another parent feeding something you don't to their children, why don't you tolerate your children's ideas more?

I like to question everything


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## EllieB (Nov 14, 2003)

Quote:

Going home whenever you think they are not sharing appropriately deprives them of learning the lessons on their own.
Well of course if my dd is having difficulty playing cooperatively I don't just pack up and leave!! As much as possible I let her take the lead in interactions with the other kids, then I will help her if she is having difficulty. I meant more like, if it's clear that she isn't into it that day I take her home where she can play independently. Also she gets plenty of real life give and take experience through having a sibling so I don't worry she's missing out on something.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:

I think there is nothing worse than an authority that thinks that is not an authority.
I am most definitely not an authority, unless someone is at risk of getting hurt. Then I'll excercise the power that resides within as a result of my greater size and strength.

But any other time, I am an _equal._ There is nothing wrong with that - it's just another way to do things that works well for a lot of people.

I think there are more categories than "permissive, authoritative, authoritarian." I am not in any of those categories. How can there be only three types of parents? There are thousands of types of children. I don't see the use in lables.


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

I don't see use in labels either


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## geomom (Nov 26, 2001)

Greaseball, I believe the first studies on parenting behavior included a wider variety of variables. For reason beyond me, they have since decided to narrow their studies down to an overly simplified single axis. I guess it makes for easier to read articles if you only have to give 3 options instead of dozens.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Leonor_
*Parents don't universally agree with rules. What is right for one family is not right for the other. If you tolerate another parent feeding something you don't to their children, why don't you tolerate your children's ideas more?

I like to question everything







*
Wow. You really assume a lot here.

I, too, question everything. My guess is that the same can be said for a lot of the mothers on this board. And I do mean everything... so much so that it can be a weak point (in that it's hard sometimes to make a final decision). And I'm always respectful of my child's ideas... we compromise with one another a lot. Isn't compromise what the philosophy you espouse is all about? (Which is interesting to me, because when I was investigating that particularl philosophy what I often found is that the parents were doing all of the compromising).

But I also know how to read, whereas my child doesn't. I know how to research - my child doesn't. I have a lot more life experience than my child. That doesn't make me the authority on everything - or even anything. It does, though, give me a more solid groundwork from which to make decisions about some important things.

Your sunscreen example, for instance. I've read and read and read and have decided that our options are to either stay inside (which is really not an option at all), or cover up as much as possible and wear sunscreen on our faces. If it were left up to my 3-year-old, he would hang out in the sun naked. And he would completely fry in about 20 minutes flat. So, I should what - realize that the bit of sunscreen on his face might not protect him from skin cancer down the line and, so, not use it and let his face get burned to a crisp (and also *definitely* exposed to harmful UVA & UVB rays) because he doesn't want to wear sunscreen of his own initiative? Because he surely won't stay inside.

Perhaps that's an extreme example. The overall point is that it is my job as my son's mother to help my son in life as he grows into an adult. It's human nature to look for guidance. Truly. It's ANIMAL nature to look for guidance. It's completely unnatural for a child to have no boundaries. Part of my duty, IMO, is relieving my son of some of the burden of decision-making on the more important issues so that he can be free to be a child. You see this very thing in animal nature. Parents provide the basics and proscribe boundaries for their offspring to keep them safe and to help them grow into functional adults. Heck, even A.S. Neill provided the basics at Summerhill School so the students could be free from some of the mundane trappings of life.

One thing that I have learned about parenting is that it's an evolutionary process. And much of that growth comes from listening and watching my child. So to assume that I don't "tolerate my child's ideas" is thoroughly off-base. It's from listening to and watching my child that I learn how best to parent him. I tend to think that laissez-faire parenting really misses the boat in that aspect.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Greaseball_
*But any other time, I am an equal. There is nothing wrong with that - it's just another way to do things that works well for a lot of people.*
Absolutely. Ds is my equal as a person. However, I look to the experience of parenting as analogous to mentoring a person in a new profession. In an ideal mentoring situation, the mentor will provide guidance but will derive just as much from the experience as the person being mentored. Such is life and parenting.


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Quote:

One thing that I have learned about parenting is that it's an evolutionary process. And much of that growth comes from listening and watching my child. So to assume that I don't "tolerate my child's ideas" is thoroughly off-base. It's from listening to and watching my child that I learn how best to parent him. I tend to think that laissez-faire parenting really misses the boat in that aspect.



ITA with you Dragonfly! Well said!


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Dragonfly_
*The overall point is that it is my job as my son's mother to guide my help my son in life as he grows into an adult. It's human nature to look for guidance. Truly. It's ANIMAL nature to look for guidance. It's completely unnatural for a child to have no boundaries. Part of my duty, IMO, is relieving my son of some of the burden of decision-making on the more important issues so that he can be free to be a child. You see this very thing in animal nature. Parents provide the basics and proscribe boundaries for their offspring to keep them safe and to help them grow into functional adults.*








Beautifully illustrated, my sentiments exactly. (*Please note my screenname







)


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Yes, the mama I've been referring to actually says that she "does not want society's fears and expectations to contaminate her child". Which is okay, but when her child scales shelves when they go shopping and an employee politely requests that she get down, and she actually PRAISES her child for screaming at the adult - "YOU'RE NOT MY MOM AND YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!" "That's right, honey. They CAN'T tell you what to do".......

IMO, there is no justification for condoning - consciously or not - disrespectful behavior. It has nothing to do with analyzing and thinking outside the box. It's common sense.


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:

_Originally posted by candiland_
*when her child scales shelves when they go shopping and an employee politely requests that she get down, and she actually PRAISES her child for screaming at the adult - "YOU'RE NOT MY MOM AND YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!" "That's right, honey. They CAN'T tell you what to do".......

IMO, there is no justification for condoning - consciously or not - disrespectful behavior. It has nothing to do with analyzing and thinking outside the box. It's common sense.*
Amen to that! And can I just say (to the above example of behavior) OMG! Outrageously ridiculous!


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

There has already been an entire thread dedicated to criticizing this lady's parenting. Perhaps it will save everyone the trouble of exclaiming their outrage at this lady's approach:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...hreadid=118585

HTH


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## MamaSoleil (Apr 24, 2002)

Quote:

Absolutely. Ds is my equal as a person. However, I look to the experience of parenting as analogous to mentoring a person in a new profession. In an ideal mentoring situation, the mentor will provide guidance but will derive just as much from the experience as the person being mentored. Such is life and parenting.
























ITA!!!!


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

That is true. I also think that both parties get a chance to be the mentor and the one being mentored. After all, my greater life experience didn't show me how to be a parent; my dd taught me how. She has the more recent experience being a child, so I also learn from her. I learn more from her than I do from books written by adults.


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## MamaSoleil (Apr 24, 2002)

Greaseball, ITA with that as well. My dd has taught me so very very much!!!!


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## mary3mama (Apr 2, 2004)

I'm new to this group -- and new to the idea that there's a parenting style called GD. (Sort of like I didn't know there was a style called AP until long after it was what we had done naturally.)

I'm learning more everyday about GD and how to integrate it into our lives. DS#1 is a very spirited, high-need 4 1/2 yo







who's brilliance and loving nature makes the ride worthwhile!

OK - enough of the background.

I've read every response in this thread and what I'm looking for is hints from experienced GD parents as to how they would have handled this exact situation had their child been the aggressor. What would you have said & how do you think your child would have responded? I've been trying to do that whenever I can, when in public and I see an example of *ineffective parenting* - regardless of what style of parenting or what history there is with that child or within that child parent dyad -- all that I'm seeing is an isolated situation where what the parent is trying is not achieving the goal they seem to be looking for....KWIM?

I always try to remember that I don't know that child or that family or the history. I always hope that people looking at us are trying to do the same thing. DS#1 is a remarkable boy -- but there are days when an outsider could assume (maybe even hope LOL!) that he was raised by wolves...









Anyway, I'd love to learn from your collective wisdom on this subject.


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## Silliest (Apr 4, 2004)

Quote:

_Originally posted by rainsmom_
*If you know your child can play roughly sometimes, has moments of aggression, cant share toys, or has issues with needing your attention and finding negative ways to get it.........why cant you pay attention to your child so others dont have to be subjected to it......b/c at age 2 or 3, sorry, kids arent old enought to "work it out". If my child had this disposition, I would either stay home with them ...... or keep a sharp eye out and be ready to intervene so other people wouldnt have to leave or feel they needed to say something to me to get my attention.

sorry, JMHO........again.*
I have a child on the autistic spectrum who is very erratic in public.
So we don't get out much.

We go to the park on those days when those who are blessed with normal children wouldn't dream of going out because the weather is so bad, or it's already dark, or there's something else fun going on in town that we can't go to, but which keeps the crowds away from the park.

Than nice new park in town that every kid loves, and my kid *begs* to go to? She may never get to go there, because I know from painful experience that she and I will be judged harshly, and very little compassion exists on the playground.

My daughter has no friends, and IRL, neither have I. people here have griped about "why should I have to leave a place just because someone else is acting badly?" Basically, it's the same reason that I can't even *go* most places.

Because Life Ain't Fair.

I am new to MDC, and have stuck to the special needs parenting so far. Someone there mentioned GD and I thought it sounded like something I should look into.

The OP was fine. Venting I understand. I do a LOT of venting about "parents of easy-going normal kids who think they're so high-and-mighty and such perfect parents when they just happened to get *lucky* with kids who don't challenge their pet-theories and prejudices about parenting. " But that sure as heck doesn't mean that I bash *every* parent who has an easy child!

What bugs me is the other posters who *weren't* just venting, and who were jumping in on the lets-bash-people-we-don't-understand bandwagon. That sucks.

I think there are all of 5 posters in this thread that I'd *ever* want to run into on the playground :-(

The others... wow... how do you manage to have "compassion and respect" only for your own children, and not for other parents?

That's quite a trick.


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:

I do a LOT of venting about "parents of easy-going normal kids who think they're so high-and-mighty and such perfect parents when they just happened to get *lucky* with kids who don't challenge their pet-theories and prejudices about parenting. "
Well put, Selena. Hugs for you.

Listen to your child and cover your hears regarding what other parents say.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

Selena,

If I thought the majority of these kids were special needs I would have a completely different attitude toward their behavior. I'm not even particularly judging the *child* but rather the *parent*

I have eight children. They range from extremely easy to quite challenging behaviorwise. None are special needs so I can't walk in your shoes.

I should think you would be infuriated that a mother of a perfectly normal but spirited child would behave in such a manner that her child is forcing other families to leave the playground. If those without a legitimate excuse would rise up and take on their responsibilities (including teaching their child not to be selfish) the measure of compassion and understanding you and your daughter deserve could be more accurately showered upon you.

But of course you would never want to meet me in real life.

Debra Baker


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

We leave places a lot! I use my judgement. No one forces me to, or makes me leave. I do what I feel comfy with. Sometimes it's b/c of my children's actions/moods, other days it's b/c of the other children. Maybe this is depriving my little ones of helpful social skills, but perhaps they're learning ways to meet needs for safety? Removing themselves? I hear the depriving argument a lot b/c of our parenting practices (what? no tv? no school? no sleeping in their own room? breastfeeding? birthing outside of a hospital? no fast food? etc). I'm doing what I feel is in our family's best interest. If I'm judged for this, it doesn't even phase me. It took me awhile to get here.

If you run into me on the playground, I'm the tired looking, barefoot one holding seventeen trucks!


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## Gidget (Aug 31, 2002)

I had a hard time coming up with a good response to this. I did have a great one, then my dd came up and pusshed a button, erasing it all. Grrrr!!!! SO here goes, I will try to replicate it.

I think in general, we all tend to be a bit defensive of paretning styles similar to our own. We feel we are personally bieng judged even when the commenter has no idea we parent that way. I also understand the defensiveness that comes when someone else corrects your dc. I have been there. I have a son who is ADHD and his public behavioirs have been less than perfect at times. I have had people correct him and it made me mad. I never knew what to say at the time, so I would think on it for days. What could I have siad to the meanie. I would mull it over. Then something would happen. I would start to see it through the other persons eyes. I would come to the realization that if I had not been busy doing other things to notice him, or just wanting to not bother with him because I was tired or other, then said person would not have felt the need to correct him for me. So, some people may be initially defensive if you have to correct their child when they are doing something to hurt/upset another child or themselves. But some also may walk away thinking. THinking is always good.

Selena, I sooo understand having a special needs chidl in public. My sister is severely autisitic. She may not be MY child, but it was just a s infuriating to see people be mean to her as it would be to have it happen to my own kid. I try to observe other kids in pubkic gatherings to figure them out. I am pretty good at identifying special needs kids. The I either avoid that area, or I go talk to the mother, depending on my day. Then I notice that when you are taking to the other mother, if her child does something to your own, she is more likely to correct her own child when she feels that she is bieng respected as a mother who is doing her best to do the right thing. Some people who get ugly looks and mean comments are more likely to let thier kid continue out of spite. People with "little angels" who feel the need to spew from their arses advice about my kids really make me mad too.

However, again, I have been here too. There are people who would rather piss off others than do the right thing. Why? Because then once they start to actaully do something about it, they know they have to be consistent, and they are too tired, lazy or other to follow up and keep with it.

I had a hard time responding to this as I had just read about a totally permissive "parenting" style that just made my blood boil. SO forgive me if I have offended any one, and darnit, I wish dd had not messed up response the first time around, it was so much better.

Ginger


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## Gidget (Aug 31, 2002)

Forgot to add, FWIW if I see my own kid doing something that is upsetting to another kid, taking a toy for example. I do say once that grabbing is not nice, would you please give it back? If there is no cooperation, then I will take it away(not grabbing) and give it back. Then my child will inevitably throw a tantruim, then we go home. If the child in question(I have three) is old enough to reason with. I will then explain at h ome what he/she did was not nice and why. We will discuss it(works with 9 year old). But I will not let someone else child continue to cry and be upset so I can "negotiate" with my child. If my child is not mature and logical enough to negotiate with, it is pointless, and toddlers certainly fit that mold.

Ginger


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

Why make our young children socialize if we want them to do it by our own standards?


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Playing nicely, w/o violence is not just a standard......its how we get along in the world (or should)


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## Gidget (Aug 31, 2002)

If we do not "make" our children abide by standards, we are doing them a great injustice and when they are released into the REAL world, then them and society will certainly clash. We teach our children to get along with other people and respect them and thier feelings, without that we may as well not have children and if we all taught them that self gratification comes first, there may as well be no world. There would be total chaos as everyone else satisfied theier owns wants. They would be hard pressed to gain empployment, relationships, friendships and would not do well at all in education. May as well let them grow up to live on the land totally isolated from other people. THere is a difference between wants and needs. Learn them. They can learn that thier feelings do matter, but not at the expense of everyone else in the world. I am not t rying to be a bitch, BUt I have more respect for people who are clueless or lazy than people who deliberately teach thier chi ldren such crap. At least they are teachable. They are not purposely doing it. IKids do not know what is best for them or anyone else, it is up to us to teach them. have a feeling some will not listen as they think that tierh childrens feeling come first at all costs. I tried to post nicely and I thought I did quite weill, but some people wont listen.

Leonor, so you are saying if my kid and your kid were on the same playground and mine grabbed a toy that your kid brought from home and I did nothing you would not get mad? Or would you see it as my child imposing his will on yours? I would not grab another persons cell phone and just start using it cause it is there. I think the same needs to be taught to our kids so they can learn to get along in the world and not have everyone hate them. I feel for some kids, it is going to be a rude and rough life.
Ginger


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## Gidget (Aug 31, 2002)

Oh, and I am sorry that you feel I am "making" my kids socialize by taking them out. Socialization is a human need and if you do not beleive that, what are you doing here? This is a form of socialization too. I am teachin my kids to socialize in a way that will not get them shunned by everyone else.

Ginger


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Gidget_
*If we do not "make" our children abide by standards, we are doing them a great injustice and when they are released into the REAL world... We teach our children to get along with other people and respect them and thier feelings...if we all taught them that self gratification comes first...There would be total chaos as everyone else satisfied their owns wants. THere is a difference between wants and needs. They can learn that thier feelings do matter, but not at the expense of everyone else in the world.
...I would not grab another persons cell phone and just start using it cause it is there. I think the same needs to be taught to our kids so they can learn to get along in the world*
She makes a good point.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

In the end these parents are doing their own children no favors because they aren't developing the social skills needed to get along with others in school and in the marketplace.

How popular is the kid hogging the swing or battering other kids going to be in Kindergarten?!

Debra Baker


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## Ms. Frizzle (Jan 9, 2004)

No, the mom at the library is not doing GD, she is just allowing her son behave the wrong way.
There is a diffence between GD and letting your child getting away with everything.


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## scorpioqueen (Apr 11, 2004)

Quote:

_Originally posted by EllieB_
I'm all for GD and everything but does anyone else just see people taking it completely too far? I feel like certain places I go mothers are trying so hard to react "correctly" to their kids behavior that they are oblivious to other people's needs. I will give a couple examples.

At the library yesterday, a young (maybe 2.5?) boy was throwing toys at other kids. His mother launched into a big discussion of this not being safe behavior, we must apologize, I don't feel good when you do this etc. Fine. Not 2 minutes later he grabbed onto a girls leg and refused to let go. Again the same discussion (while the kid is still holding onto the girl!) and then a counting to 3 until she "helped" him let go of her. Then he pushed a kid down, same discussion, which lasted at least 5 minutes. The whole time she is telling him if he can't play safe they will have to leave (and not leaving). Finally he pushed my ds (he's 14 mo) down on the floor and again the discussion. She did make him apologize and then they left, but only b/c they were leaving anyway.

How would you react to this? If this is what GD is I guess I don't do it. I would have had a discussion after the 1st incident, if my kid grabbed another kid and wouldn't let go, I would immediately pry him off, I wouldn't let him hang on while I negotiated w/ him! And if he pushed or hit anyone we would leave right away. That's how I react b/c the library is for everyone, and I don't feel my child (acting this way) should be allowed to stay if he is bothering other children and interfering w/ their fun.

Example #2. A child takes a toy away from my dd. The mom, seeing this, launches into a long discussion about this not being ok, let's give it back, do you want me to help you give it back, etc. End result, the kid doesn't give it back and my dd is upset. If my kid takes something from another kid, I will first ask her nicely to give it back, then tell her if she cannot play nicely we can't stay (these aren't personally owned toys). And if she won't give it back, I take it from her and give it back myself!

I just think I need to draw a line somewhere between my concern for my kids feelings and needs and those of other people. As much as possible I want to keep them from disturbing and hurting other kids either emotionally or physically. Where do you draw the line? Are these examples proper GD in your mind or going too far? Just curious...








 *No these are not GD in my book its permissive parenting. Example one I would first physically stop the throwing. This can be done quickly and effectly but without violence, yelling ect. Next I would take my child aside and THEN quiety but firmly explain again the rules and how she is expected to behave, Third we replace good with bad, I'd help her find an activity she could do. Finially I'd restate the rules and let her know if she couldn't "obey" Then we would have to leave. If it happened again Home we would go.

Example two, IF I see my DD take something from another, I give it back yes I try to help her return it but I don' take all day about it. I then (if old enough) explain that so and so is playing with the toy and when shes done then she can play with it (IF its a public toy) Then replace bad with good I redirrect her to a toy she can have.*

DK


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## CraftyMommaOf2 (Mar 23, 2004)

Quote:

_Originally posted by akirasmama_
*As an adult *I* have left places that were too loud and rowdy, or where 1 or 2 people were behaving in a way that I found unpleasant. It might not be "fair" or "right" but it is life. In situations with other children I do the same. If a child is repeatedly agressive against my child and it is becoming unpleasant, we leave.

We seem to expect children to 'behave' in such a way or parents 'make' them be respectful so we can all enjoy the space together. To me that just seems unrealistic. Adult situations rarely end up that way.

I am not really sure what my point is, but it just seems parents have all sorts of unrealistic expectations of how children *should* and *should not* behave at playgroups. It just seems like there is one set of expectations for adults and another for children....*
Do you think that maybe the adults that know how to act appropriately in public were taught how to do so when they were children? The whole point of PUBLIC spaces is for the PUBLIC to be able to enjoy them together. KWIM? Most ppl are very touchy if you try to offer an alternative to them or even suggest a book for them to read, so I definitely the frustration here. But, I do feel sorry for the mama that hasn't found the way that works for her and her child.

Tough issue, but I DO leave with my ds if I tell him that I will if he continues inappropriate behavior. I think the key is following through no matter what. If your kid thinks you're wishy-washy you're screwed :LOL . YKWIM?


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Quote:

Tough issue, but I DO leave with my ds if I tell him that I will if he continues inappropriate behavior. I think the key is following through no matter what. If your kid thinks you're wishy-washy you're screwed . YKWIM?

EXACTLY!!


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## MamaAllNatural (Mar 10, 2004)

Quote:

_Originally posted by CraftyMommaOf2_
*I think the key is following through no matter what. If your kid thinks you're wishy-washy you're screwed :LOL . YKWIM?*















(two thumbs up!)


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## Leatherette (Mar 4, 2003)

My son is 3 and a half. If another child is aggressive or mean at the park, we problem-solve what to do ( tell them you don't like it, walk away, suggest another game, etc.). Sometimes he is aggressive or mean. Then we problem-solve again (why don't you put that with mommy's bag if you don't want to share it now, or if you don't want to play with other kids, we can go home or play over there). It doesn't always work, but it is a way to start off, and it often will work.

Nobody's kid is always the angel. Anyone who acts like their kid is is not being real. I never judge others' parenting based on their kids' behavior ( I was a special ed teacher, I know how it is in a way). It is nice to see parents intervening when their kid is being aggressive or mean, though, special needs or not.

I don't have a problem with other parents calling my son on his behavior if I am not there immediately. But the parents in my community tend to be rather gentle, so that is a factor.

L.


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## Leatherette (Mar 4, 2003)

Forgot to add, if giving him opportunities to problem solve with me don't work, then we do go home. I think that has happened once.

L.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Well, I saw another example of this yesterday, the "ineffective parenting mistaken for GD."

I was at this adult sit-down quiet social gathering and one woman had brought her child. He was about 2, and he was just going up to random people and hitting, kicking and head-butting them. And he did it with some real force! It looked like it hurt. All the other people were just looking uncomfortable, since no one wants to discipline another's child, and every once in a while the mother would look at him and say "stop it" in this wimpy voice and of course the child would just ignore her. Every once in a while she would try to explain to everyone else, "He gets it from his father." Well, that's no excuse for everyone else to have to put up with it! I think the mother was being selfish - she drags her child to an adult gathering, fails to provide anything else for him to do, and then won't just take him home because that would interfere with _her_ evening.









I was just waiting for him to come do something like that to me; I would have dragged him out of the room. I don't like to discipline others' kids either, but I'm tired of having to leave somewhere that is intended for adults all because someone won't parent their child that they insisted on bringing.


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Preachin to the choir Greaseball!! ITA!

We had a good incident happen. Dh had taken dd to phoenix for a business lunch....and to give me some time off...... They stopped at a park to play for awhile.....and while dd was talking to some girls, this little boy comes up and pushes her down. Dh was right there of course.........and he said the mother of the little boy came immediately over and talked with the boy, then turned to dh and said "Im really sorry......we've been working on this lately, his aggression......sorry again." Dh was upset to see dd get hurt, but felt better that this woman was watching and came right over to do something about it.


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## Mamid (Nov 7, 2002)

Making excuses is "doing something about it"?

Sure it is...


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

It doesn't sound like the mother in rainsmom's scenario was "making excuses" (though the woman in Greaseball's scenario definitely was). It sounds as though she handled it very well - intervened, addressed the behavior with her son, and sympathised with the victim.


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## rainsmom (Dec 5, 2001)

Thats exactly what happened. I dont know the details of how she reprimanded him, just that she did. It was just nice for a change to have the experience of having a parent see, do something and apologize.


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## mrs_hacky (Nov 30, 2001)

Hello All!

I have read discipline books by Dr. Sears, Barbara Coloroso, Natural Family Living, etc. as well as the Biblical Parenting book. They all have great tibits of wisdom. But I have to say that the most helpful information I have tapped into lately is listening to Dr. Ray Guarendi on the radio, through his tapes and reading his books. Why? Because I feel he has addressed what I believe to be a major framework issue of parenting - do we as parents have the right to discipline our children as we see fit(abuse not included)? Do we as parents have any shred of anything within us, that will lead us in disciplining our children? Or do we need "the Experts" to tell us how to discipline our children because we couldn't posssibly be smart enough to figure it out ourselves? Do we look to these books and tapes for absolute discipline truths and how to's - OR do we look to these resources for information that WE then process and weigh it's validity to determine if we want to include the tips given in our repertoire?

It seems to me that this is really the main sticking point for alot of parents - confidence in their own ability to raise their child(ren). I am finally growing in my confidence as a parent and slowly letting go of beating myself up for my myriad mistakes in my parenting. There is nothing wrong with my children knowing I am an imperfect human being who is trying to be a better person - that's how they'll learn about self-esteem! And no, I don't think my kids will become mass murderers because I make them sit in a corner for time-outs for inappropriate behaviors, or make them write sentences, dictionary words or essays (when they are old enough), or suspend privileges. I believe that they will know I love them so much that I will not allow them to become the kind of person that others shun, make fun of and put down. They will know that I love them so much - that I will not allow them to become irresponsible, unconfident adults who cannot take care of themselves, and who cannot add beauty and joy to others lives.

I think parents are so afraid of letting their imperfections show, of "ruining" their children by having rules and boundaries, of being "unpopular" with neighbors, friends and family - that we too willingly give up and hand over our parental rights to discipline to "the experts".

Let's build each other up - and remember, sometimes no matter how tactfully and kind you might say something - the other person will still choose to hear it in a negative way. That doesn't mean it wasn't worth saying. You just don't destroy the other person in so doing.

That's my 2 cents...

Take Care...


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

I consider the experts to be those here on MDC, since they are mothers! I don't read discipline books. I'm confident that I'm disciplining my child the right way, and if something comes up and I'm not sure how to handle it, I ask MDC members how they have handled such things.

Sometimes I wonder about the people who write those books - take Dr. Sears. He's a pediatrician with 8 children...so where does he get the time to write several books?!


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