# Please help! My 5YO is driving me crazy...



## mandee (Jul 20, 2005)

Hello there --

I am a long-time lurker on these wonderful forums, and I've come here from time to time to gather resources/help/tips/etc. I'm finally coming out of "hiding" to make my first post here b/c I have a 5YO & I frankly don't know what I'm doing wrong in parenting him.







I feel like I'm creating/have created a spoiled brat, & I'm hoping some of you experienced moms out there can give me some much-needed advice, or help steer me in the right direction--books, web sites, something! I'll warn you all now, this is rather long (I guess I'm making up for not posting before!)&#8230;.









So, here goes.... My DS1 is 5YO, & I also have a 6-month-old DS2. DS1 is very bright and overall a great, funny kid. Unlike his mom, he's also very social/extroverted. I've never really had any real "issues" parenting him beyond the normal developmental things that come & go. (He was a VERY difficult baby due to GERD & a MSPI, but that's a long story for another time & kind of irrelevant here. ;-)) Lately, as in w/in the past month or 2 (or 3&#8230, DS1 has been VERY defiant, mouthy, full of attitude, & just overall pushing all my buttons! He has thrown the tantrums to beat all tantrums at home & in public--full-out screaming, throwing himself on the floor, running away from me, etc. He talks VERY disrespectfully to me & it really hurts my feelings--saying things like, as a (somewhat extreme) example, "I'm going to rip you up into a hundred pieces" or "I'm going to hit you in the face." (He hasn't actually hit me in the face, but he has hit me a few times in anger.) He will scream & carry on--not every time, but increasingly more & more often--if I ask him to pick up his toys before bedtime, to use the potty before we leave the house, to get out of his bath so he can get ready for bed, to not interrupt me when I'm on the phone, to wait a minute while I change or nurse DS2/go to the bathroom/put a load of laundry in before I help him w/ some non-urgent task.... It seems the simplest request from me can sometimes trigger a tantrum in him, but I never know what it will be. Sometimes he will just look at me & just defiantly scream "No!" or casually say "No way!" He's also been giving me & DH a hard time going to bed at night--coming out of his room again & again for the littlest things (which seem like silly excuses to me): "I hear a noise"; "The books on my shelf are messed up"; "My blankets need to be fixed".... DH & I try to calmly respond to these requests, & in & of themselves they're not really an issue, but sometimes he'll just flat out tell us he's not going to bed. This latter bedtime battle often escalates to a screaming tantrum-the most recent one involved him repeatedly coming out of his room & throwing his stuffed animals out in the hallway, then throwing them against his door, making all sorts of noise & eventually waking up DS2! (I took said stuffed animals away from him until bedtime the next night.) Needless to say, he's falling asleep later & later--a few nights ago he wasn't asleep until 10 p.m., 2 hours later than usual! (I'm the first to admit that I do think there's an element of sleep deprivation going on here--it's a viscous cycle--and he does seem to have "better" days when he's gotten more sleep.) I am a big believer in natural/logical consequences, but I just don't know how to handle him lately. I have sent him to his room to calm down when he acts out & screams, etc., & that will work to diffuse the situation, but sometimes he'll refuse to go to his room & will continue to freak out. What do I do then? And even if he does calm down, & we talk about whatever caused the freakout to begin with, it isn't long before something else triggers him. And no matter how much I try to explain to him that he needs to be more respectful to me & DH, he just doesn't seem to get it. He'll yell at us, talk back to us, say "FIIINNNE" or "OKAAAAYYY!" if I ask him to do something. He sounds like a teenager! He's "lost" his manners & will "demand" that I get him more water or buy him a toy, etc. (More on the toy-buying later--another issue we're having....) I won't get him something (i.e., within reason anyway) unless he asks for it politely, but sometimes when I remind him of his manners, that can trigger a whole other yelling/shouting tantrum. "I KNOOOWWWWW!" And he'll actually pick arguments w/ me all. day. long. He'll ask me a question--it could be something as simple as what a word means, & I'll tell him the answer, to which he'll often reply, "No it doesn't/isn't." I try not to engage in the argument, but sometimes it's a matter of facts, & I'll keep trying to explain it to him & he'll get more & more angry until we're both yelling at each other!







He'll also give DH a hard time if he doesn't do something the way I do it, or vice versa. He can throw a tantrum over it, or he'll just get very mouthy & say mean things about DH or me, like "He never does anything right" or "He never listens to me."

Today, after picking up DS1 from his weekly yoga class, I took him & DS2 to Starbucks, a special "ritual" we started years ago when DS1 & I took a mommy/toddler yoga class & something he really enjoys. He finished his snack & then asked for something else. I told him that we were leaving to go home & if he's still hungry he can eat something else when we get home. He kept going over to the case near the registers & bringing stuff over to me-"Can I get this? How about this?" I kept telling him no & repeated what I told him about eating something else at home. He got increasingly upset & starting yelling, "You HAVE to get me something!!!!" I then told him we were leaving right now since he was freaking out. DS2 was on my lap, so I went to put him back in his car seat, & DS1 pulled the car seat out from under him, yelling, "No, we're not going!" It was a good thing I hadn't yet let go of DS2, or he would have been on the floor!! I told DS1 to stop & attempted to put DS2 in the car seat again, & DS1 pushed it away; he had his hands around the handle & wouldn't let go! I told him firmly again to let go, we were going home. He pushed the car seat on the floor & then proceeded to keep kicking it again & again. My blood pressure was through the roof this time! I grabbed his shirt & told him to stop b/c he was going to hurt DS2. He threw himself on the floor & then started yelling, "Ouchie!! You hurt me!!" UGH! (Grabbing him by the shirt was not my proudest moment, but I was losing it here.







) I finally got DS2 in the car seat, & then said, "Let's go!" Amazingly, he followed me out to the car, I buckled him in, & we headed home. We were silent the whole way home (except for DS2's screaming off & on-he seems to hate his car seat lately. Why do I leave the house??!!). When we got home, he told me (out of nowhere) that he didn't like my shoes&#8230; & then apologized a few minutes later for that comment & for acting up at Starbucks. I told him I'm glad he apologized, but we won't be going to Starbucks for quite a while now, until he learns how to behave when we're out. (He pulled a similar tantrum when we were out yesterday at a kids' clothing store. I was looking for something specific for DS2 and for DS1; DS1 found the small section of toys in the store, pestered both me & DH to buy him 3 different toys, screamed when we told him no, yelling, "You NEED to get this for me!!" & then hit DH w/ one of the toys. We left right after that, w/ DS1 in tears b/c he didn't get his toy.)

Of course, one would think that a lot of DS1's behavior could be due to DS2's arrival, & that might be true to some extent. However, DS1 is absolutely WONDERFUL w/ DS2--he dotes on him, showers him w/ hugs & kisses, reads to him, wants to play w/ him, talks to him, etc. He is a great big brother, & a big help to me when I ask him to help me w/ DS2. He hasn't shown any resentment toward him at all--unless his acting out toward me & DH is how he's showing it? Some of this behavior had been going on sporadically since before DS2 was born, but it has intensified since then. I'm not sure if it's a coincidence or not, but just though I'd mention it.

So, back to the manners issue--how do you all encourage good manners in your home? DS1 had always been very polite & others have always commented on his good manners, but lately his manners have been AWFUL, & he has been SO disrespectful to me & DH-just talking back & being mean, for lack of a better word. He has been SO greedy lately too. I feel like I'm creating this spoiled brat & I don't know how to undo it. He acts like he's entitled to whatever he wants--he actually said that to me & DH one day: "I can do whatever I want to." He also has said, "I can say whatever I want." I don't know where he gets this stuff! His grandparents have definitely spoiled him--pretty much any time he's mentioned a new toy he wants, it's arrives in the mail from my mom practically the next day!







DH has certainly indulged him too lately, I think b/c maybe he feels guilty b/c he hasn't been able to spend as much time w/ him lately (due to work, etc.). But now it's gotten to a point where DS1 sees something he wants & he expects DH to run out to the store & get it. He saw some toy in one of the newspaper flyers a few weeks ago & threw a complete fit when we told him we weren't going to buy it for him, that he has enough toys & our family room looks like a freakin' toy store!! He carried on for well over an hour about it. This greediness & materialistic streak really bothers me, & I'm not sure how to curb it. I certainly don't buy DS1 whatever he wants & I do say no to him a lot, but DH & his grandparents don't, so I feel like any effort I make is essentially useless. (Although DH has been seeing the "error of his ways," so to speak, & hasn't bought him anything in at least a few weeks.) We dealt w/ a lot of this greediness at Xmas last year--I remember trying to find age-appropriate books that would "teach" DS1 that greed is not good, but never found any that I thought would help. I had a lot of "talks" w/ him about it, but nothing seemed to ever really sink in--he just kept talking about all the toys he was going to get. Any advice here?

Interestingly enough, my parents were visiting 2 weekends ago & they had been planning to take DS1 to see the "Toy Story 3" movie, along w/ DH (I was going to stay home w/ the baby.) DS1 threw a HUGE tantrum at lunchtime about something-I can't even remember what it was about now-and was screaming at me & DH. My parents were just shocked-they couldn't believe how he was yelling at us. My dad decided he didn't want to go to the movies w/ them b/c "DS1 is just going to act up again in a few hours." My mom told me I shouldn't let him go, that that would "teach him a lesson." After DH & I had a talk w/ DS about his behavior (& giving him the benefit of the doubt b/c he was up too late the night before w/ the excitement of our visitors, plus my sister & her BF were here too), we decided to let him go to the movie. He had really been looking forward to it & he sees my parents who live in CA (we're on the East Coast) only 2x a year. Both of my parents thought it was a mistake. I told them if I thought having him stay home & not go to the movie would "improve" his behavior, I wouldn't let him go, but I didn't think it would do any good. My mom ended up going w/ DH & DS; my dad did not. DS1 was very well behaved at the movie & had a great time (i.e., no tantrums, screaming, etc., & he kept telling DH & my mom "thank you for taking me!"). Weeks later, I'm still second-guessing myself & wonder if I handled this the right way. Would forbidding him to go to the movie had made a difference? Is this one of the things I'm doing wrong?!

Now, to give you more of the picture here, I'll admit that I don't think I've been handling things very well overall. DS1's behavior has been a lot for me to handle, along w/ taking care of an infant. I am very sleep-deprived (DS2 is not sleeping well at all), irritable, having trouble concentrating on tasks, & just overall unmotivated/lazy/too tired/too overwhelmed to do things like laundry, cleaning, etc. Patience has never come easy to me, but now I find myself losing my temper w/ DS1 a lot & yelling at him WAY more than I'd like to admit. I'm embarrassed to say that I'm sure he's picking up a lot of his yelling/screaming/dealing w/ anger behavior from me. I need to find a way to dig deep into my patience reserves too, but it's SO hard. When the baby woke up from a 20-minute catnap after not napping all day except a few minutes in the car, I actually started crying &, well, kind of yelling (not really at the baby, but just out loud), "Why won't you SLEEP??!!!!" I feel awful & embarrassed about MY behavior too, but I'm not sure how to change it. These kids are really just wearing me out.

And as if on cue, DS2 just woke up from another catnap, so I guess this is a good place to end this post! A million thanks to those of you who actually read this far! And a billion thanks to anyone who can make sense of my sleep-deprived ramblings above & offer me some tips/advice/help in dealing w/ DS1. Even if you can just point me in the right direction-something to read, something to think about&#8230;. Other than trying to work on my own behavior (& I could use some direction here too), I am truly at a loss as to what to do & feel like I am the world's worst mother right now.


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

So sorry you're going through this. I can't give you too much advice except just a couple things that stuck out from your post. When you've mentioned in some instances (buying the toys, letting him go to the movies when your parents thought his behavior shouldn't have warrented it, etc.) that you have felt that a certain consequence or boundary wouldn't do any good....it sounds like in some instances you feel like you've given up? You said something about your efforts being useless...I can't even imagine the frustration you're going through with what you've described. Especially taking care of another toddler on top of it.







But I just wanted to say as a comment that YOU are the mother, you are the parents and you can set boundaries. You can impose consequences when he needs it. IMO, physical restraint in some cases (like when he was pushing and kicking the car seat, etc) wouldn't be unwarrented because it sounds like he's at the point where he could possibly endanger himself or someone else, or your property. Together with the physical threats and the little episodes of hitting, etc. make me think that. Of course it's up to you how you handle it.

You said that sending him to his room to calm down has worked? Maybe when he's yelling at you or using abusive language, you could try removing him immediately from the situaiton, whatever it is, and telling him why. If you're out in public maybe you could go sit in the car until he calms down. At home, he can go to his room or out in the yard, etc. I would just try to be VERY consistent and very clear that the behavior won't be tolerated. Good luck to you!


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## jillmamma (Apr 11, 2005)

Some of what you said resonates with me, except with my girls instead of boys (my oldest DS is 7.5 and easier to reason with/understands how to act better). My older DD is almost 5 and youngest is 5 months. I think some of those behaviors you described are called being 5, and some are probably related to some insecurities he is feeling with the arrival of his brother. My older girl can throw some doozies of tantrums too, talk back with dramatic phrases too "I don't LIKE you, Moooooom!" or "You're ruining my life!" (this is a quote from a Barbie movie, oops







), and feel like she is just entitled to some things (toys in a store, candy, etc.) "But I WANT that, Moooooom!" And most of the time she loves her baby sister, but defnitely has times when she wants me to put her down and just have me just hold my big girl. I bet your boy is getting ready to go to kindergarten like my girl is too, right? I think both of them are feeling anxious about all the changes...new sibling so they are no longer the centers of attention and doing all the cute stuff, being expected to do "big kid" stuff like wait their turn and get less attention from mom and dad because of the new baby even though they do love the baby, kindergarten is going to be so different from preschool/being with mom, etc. I know with DD, most of how she expresses that is directed at me especially, dad somewhat, because she is most comfortable and secure with us.

Some things that have helped at my house are:
~ setting firm boundaries and sticking to it (hardest part!)
~ empathizing with her that I am sorry she is frustrated about whatever and wishes she could do XXX, but that it can't happen right now for whatever reason
~ when I see her doing something helpful or nice, making sure to praise and thank her and let her know how it helps me
~ tell others in front of her how helpful she was doing XXX (waitig her turn, picking up toys, bringing me something for her sister, etc.)
~ when she gets up, or I see her after being apart, making sure that I give a big smile and hug and let her know how glad I am to see her
~ indulge her a bit if she wants to be "babied", like helping her get dressed sometimes or feeding her even though she CAN do it herself
~ give the baby to DH and carry HER a short distance to the car or in the house
~ while nursing the baby, invite her to come sit by me so we can read books or watch a movie or whatever together
~ if the baby is asleep, spend a few minutes doing something cool one on one with her (I know hard if your baby does not sleep, but maybe he would let you wear him on your back while you did "big kid" stuff?)
~ get some outside time or physical activity time in for exercise and to improve sleep
~ get OUT of the house for a bit...sometimes the change of environment really can help!

I hope this helps a bit, and I can say you sound like a caring and loving mom, and your boys are lucky to have you!


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## mandee (Jul 20, 2005)

Oh, thank you SO MUCH, ladies, for taking the time to reply too my VERY long post! I feared no one would have the time or energy to even read my post, never mind respond! (I know my computer time is practically nonexistent these days, so again, THANK YOU!!)

coffeegirl -- Yeah, I think you definitely "heard" the desperation in my post!







It's not so much that I've given up, but that I'm just not sure what I'm doing wrong or what is actually in my "control" to try to fix. And I feel like when DS1 says things like, "I'm not going to bed!" or "No way!" in response to a request I make, it's not like I can force him to go to bed, so I feel like my options are limited. I guess what I need are some long-term tactics that will eventually prevent such defiance.

I did leave Starbucks right away yesterday when his tantrum started, so I think he got he message that that behavior won't be tolerated. My DH said that if I skip the post-yoga Starbucks trip the next few weeks that he'll probably "get it." And if we keep not giving in to his demands for toys every time we go out, he'll get that too. You're right: We need to be consistent here. Seems so simple, but it's a good first step.









jillmamma -- You don't know how much it helped me to hear that another mama out there can relate somewhat to what I'm dealing with here! Thank you! Yes, DS1 will be starting preschool in September, but he is SO excited about it! He absolutely LOVED preschool & really thrived in that environment. He is so well-behaved at school, & his teachers have, on several occasions, described him as laid-back & easy-going! WHAT?!







Anyway, I do think there is an element of him still getting used to not being an only child here anymore; he was the only one for FIVE years & was used to getting all of our attention. I am trying to give him extra attention wherever I can, but I am struggling with that a lot. Yes, his baby brother not really napping during the day or sleeping well at night is not helping that! I have tried to do special things w/ him here & there, but it seems that they usually end in a tantrum or argument of some sort, & one--or both of us!--in tears. I see that you, too, have an infant. How do you find the balance? I am really struggling with this....

Your suggestions seem VERY helpful & I will be trying them, for sure! Thank you so much! The praise thing--I need to do more of that! I've also discovered that we do need to get outside more for some exercise--when we do, DS1's tantrums do seem fewer/less "crazed," & he does go to bed more willingly. But it has been unbearably hot here where we live, in the 90s w/ lots of humidity, so unfortunately we haven't been out as much as I'd like to. I do like to get out of the house too, but I usually end up regretting it b/c of DS1 acting up (see Starbucks event from yesterday, & the clothing-store tantrum from the day before) AND b/c DS2 apparently HATES his car seat & will inevitably SCREAM on our way out or our way back--very stressful for all of us. (I try to time our outings to when I think he'll nap, but that doesn't seem to help either.) By the time we get home, we're all very cranky & tired. Setting firm boundaries & sticking to them--I thought I was doing ok here, but maybe not. Can you give me an example of the sort of things you do? Like, if your DD talks back to you, or throws a fit b/c she wants you to by her something, how do you react? Maybe I'm just not responding to these in the "right" way? (I know that I'm not really the pillar of calm that I should be in these situations.







)

Thank you both again SO MUCH!! And thanks, jillmamma, for saying I sound like a caring & loving mom & that my boys are lucky to have me! I certainly don't feel like that lately, but it's nice to know that from the outside it appears I haven't completely ruined my kids!


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## Quinalla (May 23, 2005)

A few things that stuck out to me...

You mentioned arguing with him about factual things where he will ask something like "What's this Mommy?" and you say "That's XYZ." and he will respond "No it's not!" At that point, I would change direction completely, ask him "Why do you think that?" or just say "Oh really?" "Hmmm." or any other neutral response that works for you. There isn't any point in arguing and if he wants to keep talking, perhaps a question or neutral response will encourage him to move onto another subject. Just an idea to help with those types of situations.

Active Listening I think would help you a lot too. When he keeps insisting on wanting a toy or treat, instead of just telling him no or no with an explanation, first reflect back to him what he is really saying. Something like this:

"Mom, you need to get me this."
"No honey, we're leaving soon and you already had a snack. If you are hungry still, we can have a snack at home."
"But mom, I need this!"
"You really want X, huh?"
"Yes, I want it right now and you won't get it for me!"
"You wish I would get you everything you want right away."

...and so on. It doesn't mean you give in, you just show him by really listening and showing him you are by feeding his feelings back to him. Will he still be frustrated, probably, but just knowing that you are really listening and not just dismissing him (not saying you are, but he may feel that you are) can go a long way to helping him get through his strong feelings when he can't have something he wants. It's something to remember that kids can have very strong feelings that they don't quite know how to deal with, the cause of many tantrums and acting out.

And I also get the feeling that you feel that you have caused your son's tantrums. I really don't think that is the case and don't forget there is a big difference between tantrums when a child is dealing with big feelings and really can't control his outburst vs. a tantrum thrown on purpose to manipulate. The former is something totally normal that all children go through to some extent and sounds to me like what you son is experiencing.


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## jillmamma (Apr 11, 2005)

Good point, Quinalia! I try to do that too.

I hear ya on the awful heat and humidity (and mosquitoes too lately!







)...I live in Houston! Indoor play places (even just Chick Fil A) help keep our sanity here a lot or sometimes the neighborhood pool.

Here is my example from today. We had swim lessons this afternoon for my older two. DS was fine and excited and got ready right away when I said it was time. DD is not really thrilled about getting her ears in the water or using the pool noodle by herself (even though she CAN and DOES do great if she tries!), so she suddenly was very "tired" and said they make her do stuff that is "hard". So she had to throw a fit about "I don't WANT to get my swimsuit on! I don't WANT to go to swim lessons! I am TIRED!" complete with tears, drama, and me having to basically dress her and carry her out to the car (not to mention I had to get the baby out and my older son too). More tears and wailing in the car all the way there, with me telling her, "I know you are tired, but right after lessons we can go home and take a nap. You will do great." So we get there, and I get all of them out of the car and baby in the stroller, and she decides to run off and hide behind a bush. I had to extract her, grab her hand and pretty much drag her in. During the whole lesson before doing what the teacher said, she was constantly making excuses, first "I am tired." when that did not work, "I am sick", no luck there to "I have a fever!". Luckily, the teacher is used to other kids with drama too and was very gentle but firm that he wanted her to try, and she did! When she tried, she did great! I still had to hear about how tired she was on the way home though. Man, I am tired after that! Oy!

So, no, you are NOT alone, and I can definitely relate!!!!


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## mom2grrls (Jul 24, 2008)

Needless to say, he's falling asleep later & later--a few nights ago he wasn't asleep until 10 p.m., 2 hours later than usual! (I'm the first to admit that I do think there's an element of sleep deprivation going on here--it's a viscous cycle--and he does seem to have "better" days when he's gotten more sleep.) >>>>>

This I bet is a big problem, probably even bigger than you realize, esp. since you said you are sleep deprived also. I just picked up the book Sleepless in America by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka and although I haven't read it all it speaks to this problem exactly, something you may want to pick up. Behavior problems are magnified by 1000 it seems when my son has not gotten enough sleep, it bothers him moreso than my older girls.
My son is 6, but a lot of the behavior you describe are things he has/does still do.
It's hard for a child to realize that all of a sudden he can't have the things he asks for, my MIL is now realizing this. I like a previous poster's response to acknowledge his feelings and have neutral responses.
As for the talking back/saying no I bet some of that would diminish once a better sleeping schedule is established. Another thing to look at is how often do you say no to him? Does he get control of things ever? Do you tell him what to do often? How do you phrase your requests/what tone do you use? Kids like to be in control as much as we do lol, they want to do things themselves and not be told what to do. Try to make some things a game like picking up toys, how fast can you brush your teeth, get dressed, etc. Hang in there


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## Tjej (Jan 22, 2009)

You've gotten a lot of insightful advice. One area that I haven't noticed anyone mention is the stuff your DS has and the chaos you say your house is in. I find that for my kids and me it makes a big difference if our home is tidy and their toys are minimized. I have about 7/10 of their toys in storage and rotate them out for use. If there are too many toys to put in a closet then donating some might be the right way to go as well. It is hard to get rid of stuff that is nice, but I just try to think of it as finding a new home and freeing up my time/space/energy by getting rid of or storing it. It really makes a big big difference in how the kids behave and how we all feel.

From what you describe your son sounds overwhelmed with life and he is lashing out. It may be the new baby/finding his fit in the new structure of the family. It may be impending kindergarten. It may be the chaos of all the toys to manage. It may be something else or a combination. Add on the sleep troubles and it's not surprising that he's saying some pretty mean stuff and behaving irrationally.

I'm just starting a book called Simplicity Parenting which might really speak to you. It talks about simplifying a child's life in a lot of ways - toys, routine, what they hear/see, etc. I don't buy into the whole philosophy behind the book (it is Waldorf), but I do really appreciate what they have to say on simplifying life for kids.

HTH

Tjej


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## chiefmir (Apr 16, 2010)

I'm sorry that you are having such a rough time! FWIW, I think you are doing a great job trying to figure out how to help DS1... and while having an infant too! One of the PPs gave some good advice about ways to talk to DS that reflect his feelings without giving in. they sound a lot like some of the suggestions given in How to Talk SO Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk... I picked a copy up on amazon (used) for only a few bucks. I also recommend Positive Discipline for Preschoolers (they go roughly from 3-6years). I don't know if it is everyone's idea of a good parenting book, but there are sections there that I just read and reread because I feel like they remind me of how to keep my cool and to respect myself and my DD even when she is at her "worst".

it sounds like you have multiple behavior issues that you are facing at once, and my best advice is to NOT try to tackle them all at once! first of all, it is just too hard to do that, for both you and DS. also, I have seen (wiht my DD and also with kids I work with) that as one area improves, so do others- sort of a trickle down effect. So, I'd pick the one or two things that really get you the most upset and frustrated... the few things that- if they were better- would be the most dramatic improvement in your life (and they don't have to be the same things that would matter for others). for me, that would be bed time (I go to bed early and get up early and start to feel panicky if DD isn't in bed and asleep by 7:45 b/c there literally isn't enough time in the day/night left to get things done) and the disrespect towards parents. Whichever behaviors you choose to focus on, decide what YOU will do in the situation...realizing that you can't control what DS does- you can only control yourself and your own actions (this is from one of the books I mentioned). for me, this realization was VERY FREEING. instead of feeling like I have to STOP DD's tantrum and MAKE HER STOP embarassing me/wasting time/etc I just try to remember what I will do when she starts doing something like that, and calmly stick to it. For example, acting up in a store means that she gets one warning and then we leave (two times in the past three years we've left a store or resturant due to this- and now that she knows I WILL follow through even at my own inconvenience she doesn't push the boundary anymore). If she fights bed time (which she did for months between 3.5 and 4 yrs old) she gets one "freebie" time out of her room (usually to ask for a re-tuck)... and if she comes out again for something non-serious (occasionally there is a good reason for a 2nd time out) she gets a warning, and the next time she loses her morning TV show (this is a big consequence for her).

one other thing that made a BIG difference for DD when she was having more difficulties was trying to conceptualize she and I as a team working to help her behave better. that may sound flaky, but it got me in the right mind set and also (hopefully) diffused some of her resistance. here's an example of what I mean... once we had to leave a pizza place (I was 8 months pregnant at the time) because after multiple warnings/reminders etc she was just too loud and unsettled for the place). I gave her one more warning, and then packed up the pizza to go home. She was crying and begging for "another chance" and I talked to her about how I wasn't angry, but that it was my job to help her learn how to behave in public and that her behavior was showing me that she wasn't ready to be at a resturant that day. I told her taht it was my job to help her learn how to do this better, and taht it was OK for her to have difficulty becuase she was "just learning". I also promised her that we'd have a "do over" in the next few days so she could try again at the pizza place and do better.

anyway, sorry for the long response-- I hope that things get better for you g uys soon!


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## Adasmommy (Feb 26, 2005)

It seems to me that you both need help keeping your cool.

Here are my ideas to help you stay sane:

babywearing--have you tried it? Using it extensively to help baby sleep and to allow you to have more freedom and not have to carry a carseat? Or swaddling for nights/naps?
As hard as it is, try not to take his behavior personally. Remind yourself that he's having a hard time keeping his cool and is very emotional and that's all about him NOT you. Remind yourself that it's no different from your failing to remain calm when he pushes YOUR buttons.
Do you have a mommy friend and the two of you can come to each other's houses for a playdate/laundry folding and floor sweeping (help with each other's chores)?
Go for a walk with your husband (if possible) and kids each evening before your son's bedtime. Five minutes away from the house and five minutes back. Good for both of you!
Here are my ideas to help you help him stay sane:

Don't argue--if he says the moon is made from cheese, say okay.
Try to be playful (have you read Playful Parenting?). If the moon is cheese, say, "Hmmm, I always thought it was not. I learn so many surprising things from you!"
When he tantrums, remind yourself that it's not about you so you don't have to be upset by it. Remind yourself that he's having a rough time just now and that most everything you say is feeding that rough time. Disengage! Say, I know it's rough not to get what you want. Say, I love you more than anything on Earth, but I'm not going to talk about this anymore. Try not to be rude, or belittle what is such a big deal to him, but don't explain further, or try to convince, or offer alternatives.
Think of this problem period as a symptom of needing to fix your relationship NOT his behavior. Spend more time reading books together. Try to ask what he wants to do today and do it, what he wants for lunch, what he wants to do before bed, and maybe you or your husband devote as much time exclusively to him as you can in that hour before bed.
You two love each other, so strengthen that and the rest will follow. I hope you can all get rested soon--that is invaluable. Let us know how it goes!


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## Adasmommy (Feb 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mandee* 
I have sent him to his room to calm down when he acts out & screams, etc., & that will work to diffuse the situation, but sometimes he'll refuse to go to his room & will continue to freak out. What do I do then?

At home, I'd say you don't have to send him away. Just don't let it get to you. It will end a lot faster if it has no effect. Just reiterate that you love him and you know he's having a tough time right now. Then go do whatever you need to do around the house and be ready to sit down for a cuddle if he gets to the point where he wants one.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mandee* 
And even if he does calm down, & we talk about whatever caused the freakout to begin with, it isn't long before something else triggers him. And no matter how much I try to explain to him that he needs to be more respectful to me & DH, he just doesn't seem to get it.

I don't think this is something that explaining will help with. He'll learn to be respectful by being treated respectfully, and like to toddler that needs to be redirected constantly, it may take a while to sink in! You can mention that people who love each other should treat each other with respect, but I'd keep it brief and not expect it to make a difference that day!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mandee* 
When we got home, he told me (out of nowhere) that he didn't like my shoes&#8230; & then apologized a few minutes later for that comment & for acting up at Starbucks. I told him I'm glad he apologized, but we won't be going to Starbucks for quite a while now, until he learns how to behave when we're out.

I'm actually thinking it might be more helpful to say, "I feel better now that you've apologized. Should we try going to Starbucks again to see if we can stay friendly and enjoy ourselves more?"

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mandee* 
We dealt w/ a lot of this greediness at Xmas last year--I remember trying to find age-appropriate books that would "teach" DS1 that greed is not good, but never found any that I thought would help. I had a lot of "talks" w/ him about it, but nothing seemed to ever really sink in--he just kept talking about all the toys he was going to get. Any advice here?

Again, explaining not real effective at this age. I'd say keep talking about your values, but not necessarily directed at him. Chat with him about donating stuff to people who need it (and let him see you doing this with YOUR things). Make a big focus on giving gifts on birthdays and Christmas...have him help you think of what people would really love, and make some gifts together so that you have a big anticipation of giving it to someone and seeing their faces when you open it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mandee* 
DS1 was very well behaved at the movie & had a great time (i.e., no tantrums, screaming, etc., & he kept telling DH & my mom "thank you for taking me!"). Weeks later, I'm still second-guessing myself & wonder if I handled this the right way. Would forbidding him to go to the movie had made a difference? Is this one of the things I'm doing wrong?!

I think this was fine, and he clearly appreciated it. You created a situation in which he didn't feel the need to rebel, so go you!


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

Mine too!

DS1 is 5.5---he also recently started with "I can do/say whatever I want!" and "I'm the boss!" I was (in my head) blaming other kids in the neighborhood for this, now I see it's probably universal 5.

He also really likes to argue.

And *I* struggle with 2 major things

One is yelling and threats.

The second is imposing a consequence and then thinking I've been too hard on him, so I take away part or all of it....so counterproductive!

The biggest thing I've found to help with that is to find a way to think before I say *anything* to him....it keeps me from making those threats that I end up not following through on.

It's NOT easy, but it *is* getting better. Slowly. (For example, I think I hit the right balance tonight with taking away outside time tomorrow--until possibly around 6 PM when his best buddy gets home, depending on his behavior. I also took away indoor "fun"--TV and the computer. That will be all day--his buddy will not come in and play computer tomorrow night.)
He's still got incentive to cooperate tomorrow, and I still have something to 'take away' if I need to....this makes me much less likely to resort to yelling and thinking about spanking because there's "nothing left to *do.*"

With the movie....for me, it honestly would depend. Grandparents from the other side of the country in town and that is the ONLY day he can go with them? Yeah, I would've let him go, but with strict instructions that ANY misbehavior results in leaving. (Pretty harsh to take away a trip with people he only sees 2x a year)
If there was another day to go within the next day or two, I would've probably done that.
But no, that one incident in and of itself I don't think is the problem--I think kids are *smart* and realize that this is their *one* chance of the year and would really resent having it taken away. *Not* what I would want to do to my child.


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## Hokulele (Mar 2, 2005)

Oh wow - I wish I had time right now to read your full post (I kinda skimmed it) and the responses. I could have written much of what you said because we are in the same boat in a lot of respects.

First, I think it absolutely could have a LOT to do with the new sibling. Especially if he is so so amazingly sweet to his brother. Even if you can't see the connection (and it is impossible to see it in the moment) just know that a younger sibling can take a toll in unseen ways.

Second, I think most of this behavior is very much what a five year old does. My DD1 (5yo) goes through phases of being incredibly demanding, in many of the same ways you are describing here. Often after the phase, I can pinpoint the behavior in direct relation to some growth spurt, physical, mental or emotional. It is hard to see that when you're on week five of difficult moments, but often behavior like this can signal a big jump in development.

I need to read responses on how to handle it, because I'm no champion on this. What I CAN tell you is:

1. keep your calm!! Any time I show emotion - anger, sadness, even feigned indifference, my DD can pick up on it and it only escalates her antics. What she responds to is my utter acceptance that this is the way she is behaving at the moment. This does not mean I ALLOW the behavior, but I have no reaction to the emotional part of it. (Does that make sense? Typing fast here. No time!) I put all my energy into staying calm and firm.

2. Anticipate, anticipate, anticipate. There are MANY ways to anticipate behavioral hiccups. If you know DS is hungry/tired, be ready for a meltdown / breakdown in politeness etc. But also, even on great days, anticipate a situation and prep for it. Before we go to a store, for instance, I give DD the complete run-down: I tell her "we're going to be here for X amount of time" I tell her what I expect from her (stay in the cart / stay within eyesight) What I know she will be tempted to do that I want to stop before it starts (do not beg for me to buy you stuff, please be nice to your little sister because she will get bored) etc etc etc. It really does make a difference.

3. Praise the good moments, especially when you know there was a possiblity of things not going so well. When DD acts like an angel while we're on an errand I will tell her how much I appreciated it, and point out what that lead to "see how fast we did that grocery run? and it was because you were so helpful because you did X, Y & Z" I will even say to her when I know she was tired / hungry / unhappy and didn't act up "I'm so impressed that even though I was having a boring conversation with that neighbor and you wanted a snack, you didn't interrupt me at all!"

OK, I'm getting long winded. When I have time I'm going to read responses and then maybe I'll have more thoughts.

Oh, and the mean things "I'm going to hit you in the face" - type stuff!?? Totally normal here. Just started happening a few weeks back and it crushed me to hear the devastatingly mean stuff DD can come up with. But then I realized this is a five year old trying to release her anger with words. I don't like it and I need to figure out how to slow it, but I wouldn't worry that it is abnormal at all!


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## chiefmir (Apr 16, 2010)

I'm back









I thought of something else that has helped with DD1- some of the language I use with her. here are two of the most effective examples:

1. "your behavior is showing me..." (for both good and for bad). I say things like, "you've been helpful and coopertative all afternoon- so your behavior is showing me that I do NOT have to rush you to bed tonight-- which means that we have time to play a game together after the baby goes to sleep!" or "you've been upset and arguing with me. Your behavior is showing me that you are tired and grumpy and that today is NOT a good day for one mommy to try to take two kids to the playground because you are not feeling well enough to be a good listener."

2. the "now you have a ______ mommy who ____" language (also has to be used for good and for bad or it doesn't have the same effect for DD). as in, "you've been listening the first time I talk to you and doing lots of things to make things easier for me! NOW you have a happy and relaxed mommy who has plenty of energy to go set up the slip and slide outside even though its hot and close to dinner time!" and "you've been having a hard time listening to me today and its been making everything more difficult and more tiring for me. NOW you have a frustrated and tired mommy who doesn't have the energy to do special things like set up the slip and slide this close to dinner time."

those are over simplifications (usually if the consequence is something negative, I'll offer a way to "do better", such as "if you are able to cooperate and be helpful during dinner time, I'll get some energy back and we can practice riding your scooter while daddy puts the baby to bed". or something like that. this works for us because it links DDs behavior to (what I consider) natural consequences... if you are interpersonally helpful and kind, others are happy, relaxed, want to be with you, an dwant to go out of thier way to do nice things for you. If you are difficulty, grumpy, overtired, unhelpful, etc, then others are worn out and don't particularly want to spend more time with you when you are acting like that.


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## mandee (Jul 20, 2005)

WOW, mamas! Thank you all SO MUCH for all of your helpful responses!!







I am SO grateful & am starting to feel like I have some tools to try to deal w/ DS's behavior. I am so glad I came out of "hiding" to post on here. It's hard for me to find the time to get on these boards regularly, which is why I hadn't posted before now, but I will try to come here more often with the hope that I can reciprocate some of your kindness & advice! Amazingly, DS2 is taking more than a 20-minute nap this afternoon, & DS1 (after a running "clinic" for kids late yesterday afternoon & an art class this morning), actually asked if he could take a nap too, so while both kids are sleeping, I can catch up here!!









Quinalla - Thanks for the tips! I will definitely try your tactics when dealing w/ the arguments DS likes to pick w/ me over facts, & the active listening idea is a good one too. I will be trying to put both of these into practice. (I'm sure I'll have several opportunities to do so just today!







) And thanks for reassuring me that I haven't caused my son's tantrums. I never really thought so before, but since my parents were here & witnessed DS's tantrums & told me how I should be handling them, & that "DS is doing this b/c you did/didn't do X&#8230;." I've been second-guessing myself. (My parents-especially my dad-are of the "children should be seen but not heard" philosophy.







)

jillmamma - Sorry you had a rough time w/ your DD at swim lessons, but I'm glad to hear I'm not alone in dealing w/ these issues. Interestingly, DS1 hasn't been back to swim lessons since last summer. He was SO petrified of jumping in the water from the edge or from the diving board that the anxiety ruined the whole experience for him & he just would not cooperate, & would freak out & cry hysterically. DH & I finally stopped taking him-figured it wasn't worth the stress for any of us. We tried to feel him out about picking up his lessons again this summer, even after he went swimming w/ DH in our neighbor's pool (DS1 was holding onto a raft w/ DH nearby, while all the other kids-some younger, some a year or 2 older-swam on their own), but he really doesn't want to go. I don't want to force him, even though he was doing really well w/ learning to swim on his own until he had to jump in the pool by himself. Maybe next summer he'll get the courage? I know what you mean though-like your DD, he CAN and DOES great when he tries, & then says, "That wasn't so bad!"









mom2grrls - I've seen the book "Sleepless in America" mentioned on these boards a few times. I will have to add it to my book list. (Oh, the irony-I have a pile of books at my bedside I desperately want to read, but between DS1 & DS2 not going to bed early enough & DS2's nightwakings, I do not have the time-or energy to stay awake long enough-to read them & garner some tips that might actually HELP me get them to sleep better!) I think you are right that the sleep issues are magnifying (or in small-or large-part causing the behavior issues. You mentioned another thing that is helpful too-I think that I do say "no" to DS more often than I used to & I need to pick my battles & allow him more control (within reason, of course) over certain things. He does respond well when we make things a game-like racing against the clock to pick up toys or to get dressed. In my sleepless haze, I had forgotten these tools-thanks for the reminder!

Tjej - I actually just bought the book "Simplicity Parenting" & although I've had time only to skim it (see my response above to "mom2grrls"), what I read so far has really resonated w/ me; I want DH to read it too. I know *I* feel overwhelmed by the chaos of my house & all the toys, etc., so I can see how it could make DS1 feel the same. (I am usually a very organized person & despise clutter, but I just don't have the time-or energy-to stay on top of things lately, & it drives me crazy!!) Thanks for the advice & letting me know that some of these things have worked for your family-it gives me hope!

chiefmir - Thanks for the book recommendations; I will check these out too. And thanks for the advice on how you handled bedtime battles & outings & the consequences w/ your DD. It makes a lot of sense! I think that if I'm able to get the whole bedtime situation under control (or at least improved a bit), other things may start to improve as well. I'm going to try to focus my efforts there first-thanks!.... Oh, & thanks for the specific language examples-I will definitely try to use these b/c I think they will help w/ my DS! And I like that they're linked to natural consequences-a great way to indirectly teach DS how to treat others the way you want to be treated.

Adasmommy - Yes, I am a big believer in babywearing & wear DS2 when I can. I find though that DS2 isn't enjoying it as much lately though, at least not when we're home, b/c he is really starting to get mobile & would rather be on the floor rolling all around & attempting to scoot. It's great, but it makes it difficult to get things done AND to play w/ DS1. DS2 is so close to crawling, & I'm proud that he is developing so well, but I'm also anxious about how much more difficult this is going to make things! DS1 was crawling at 6 months & walking at 9 months; if he follows in his big brother's footsteps, I am in trouble!!







) I have been begging DH to try to make it home from work earlier so we can do things like go for a family walk b/f bedtime, but unfortunately, this hasn't happened yet. DH gets home between 6:30 & 7 most nights, we eat dinner, & then if it's a bath night, there's not much time for anything else. I find that DS1 gets pretty wound up too if we go outside too close to his bedtime-then he throws a fit when it's time to come inside, he gets another burst of energy, & it's tough for him to wind down for bed. As much as the fresh air that time of day/evening helps me & DS2, it has the opposite intended effect on DS1.... And I need to try to swap chores w/ one of my local mommy friends-good idea! And your tips for helping DS stay sane are GREAT-thank you! Especially the last one-very good ideas! Actually, I would love to devote that hour or so before bedtime exclusively to DS1, but DS2 usually nurses a while then to sleep, so DH has been handling DS1's bedtime. Sometimes I can get DS2 down earlier to read one of DS1's books to him, but that happens less often than I'd like. Oh how I struggle w/ balancing the needs of both boys right now!.... Oh, & your advice about not really needing to explain some things to DS, but rather show him by example, is very helpful. DS1 is SO inquisitive & curious & always asking questions that I sometimes feel I need to explain a lot to him & that he does best in situations where I can explain the why, but I see in these situations that even though he's very bright, he's probably still too young to grasp some of those concepts. With how he acts, I sometimes forget he's only 5!

peaceful_mama - I see you are dealing w/ some of the same behavior as well. Again, it helps to know I'm not the only one. Thanks for sharing your experience & what has worked for you, & thanks for reassuring me that I handled the whole trip to the movies situation ok.

Hokulele - Thanks for your help too! You know, I often look at DS2's "issues" (not napping or increased nightwakings when he was doing better just the days before) in terms of growth spurts or reaching new milestones, but I don't tend to do that when looking at DS1's behavior, & there's no reason I shouldn't! Thanks for the reminder! DS1 did have a big growth spurt recently AND he learned to read over the past few months (well, he started to read basic words when he was about 4.75 yrs old, but he's been progressing very rapidly & in just the past month or 2 started reading the level 2 & 3 books!). All of your advice is very helpful-all things I need to do but forget to do-especially staying calm myself, anticipating things (i.e., laying down the "rules" when we go somewhere), & praising the good.

Thanks again so much, mamas! I am feeling so much better & feel better equipped to handle the challenge that is my DS! Now if I can get the baby to sleep better/longer.... (Next stop-the Nighttime Parenting forum!







)


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## peaceful_mama (May 27, 2005)

see my post about actually being proud of myself....

They were supposed to spend today without going outside until at least around 5 when DS's friend gets home from daycare (IF the day went well) and no TV or computer.

Well....around noon, a friend of mine who hasn't been over to our place since, I THINK, when DS2 now 20 mos. was born....called and came and spent the day with us!

Yes, I lifted the TV and outside restrictions. I think the kids had already gotten the point through the previous night's talk and spending the AM without TV. I also think they "got it" that it was a special day and that's why I lifted their 'restrictions.'









Kids aren't dumb....they know the difference when it's "special circumstances."


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## mandee (Jul 20, 2005)

I did see your other post, peaceful_mama! Way to go!







Hope you had a nice visit w/ your friend!


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## Savoir Faire (Nov 17, 2007)

I'm very big on manners and respect and while reading this, I just couldn't help but think "this is a child who does not respect his mom!"

He's got to learn that it is not acceptable to speak to you that way. Whatever method it is that you would decide to do to help him-- walking away, I don't know-- you've got to stick with it.

Good for you to tell him about not going back to Starbucks. I know it is hard, especially when it is something special, but I don't feel you can act like that and then get what you want the next week.

Next time you go out-- tell him exactly what you expect of him. "You can have one snack and then we will go home. If you whine and ask for more then we will have to miss the next week."

And...don't argue with him. (A hard one for me!) He says the sky is green? His new name is Pumpkinhead? Fine, whatever you say. He's trying to get whatever attention he can.

And I agree with all the other Moms who say to praise the positive. Definitely keep on doing that...even if it is the little things. Let him work on getting positive attention instead!


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## emnic77 (Sep 12, 2009)

Dude. We have the same kid.







I swear, you just described my 5 year old DS to. A. Tee.
Right down to the interaction with the new baby. I'm really struggling with him right now too.

Off to read the rest of the thread now...


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## mandee (Jul 20, 2005)

emnic77 - Sorry to hear you're going through the exact same thing w/ your DS-wow! At least you're not alone! I hope you find some helpful advice here. Please come back & share anything that works for you!

Savoir Faire -- Thanks for your input! I'm very big on manners too, so it pains me when DS1 is so disrespectful & just plain rude.







I know I need to be consistent in what I do to help him stop being so disrespectful, but here is where I'm having the problem. Everyone here has given me such great advice, & I have been trying to implement a lot of it over the past few days, but I am still at a loss with exactly *how* to react when he is disrespectful to me. If you, or any of the other moms out there, have some practical tips for me, I will gladly take it!







As an example, today DS1 got really upset & started screaming & making faces at me & growling at me when I asked him--very politely, I might add--to play a little more quietly while I was on the phone w/ DH. Just that simple request threw him into a rage! I told him if he couldn't play quietly & was going to yell & make faces, then go to your room until you can calm down. He flat out told me "NO!" and went back to playing even more loudly than before & making more faces at me & growling.







I seriously didn't know what to do at that point & just told DH I'd talk to him later & hung up the phone. I actually started crying & left the room to compose myself. A few minutes later DS1 was fine, but neither of us mentioned his behavior. Honestly, I just didn't have any more energy today to deal w/ him, I didn't know what to do, don't know how to handle him when he acts like that, & don't know how to teach him that he needs to stop reacting in that way when I ask him to do something.









Moreover, DH & I have been trying to work on his sleep, thinking (or maybe hoping?) that he's sleep deprived & it is--at least in some part--contributing to his behavior. So I read up on some things, & yesterday I made sure DS1 got some time outside to run around in the morning (despite the ridiculous heat here!), a little less time to do the same in the afternoon, started to wind things down a little earlier than usual before bedtime--quiet play, a relaxing bath, etc. DH then read to him & tucked him in by 8:00. Well, I don't know what we did wrong, but DS1 came out of his room at least 3 times between 8 & 8:30 w/ all sorts of excuses, & then he came downstairs where DH & I were finally trying to get some things done, & he announced, "I'm not going to bed! I'm going to stay up all night!" He kept walking around downstairs, stomping his feet & saying "Hrrmmpphh!", despite DH's pleas to get him to go to bed. "No, I'm not going to bed!" And really--it's not like we can *force* him to go to bed. I was so exhausted from dealing w/ him all day (& had just finally gotten DS2 to bed), that I finished cleaning up & headed upstairs to take a shower. I left DH to deal w/ him b/c I felt my blood pressure rising & was going to start yelling, which I've been trying so hard not to do.







I came back downstairs 30 minutes later & DS was still adamantly insisting that he was not going to bed. Not knowing what else to do, DH & I just basically ignored him, went about our business, then said good night, & told him we were going to bed & we'd see him in the morning. We went up to our room, & DS went into his room, so we figured he lost interest in harassing us. We were feeling all proud of ourselves for not yelling at him or escalating things, but then 10 minutes later, he was banging on our door, whining, then yelling.... Then DS2 woke up!







I went to deal w/ DS2 & DH dealt w/ DS again--just leading him back to his room, tucking him in, & saying good night. DS1 said he didn't want the night light on in his room, so DH unplugged it, & that was when he stopped coming out of his room. I don't get it! Eventually, both DS1 & DS2 went to sleep, but it wasn't until sometime after 10:30!!!! ARGGHH! So I lost all my before-bed relaxation/"mommy" time too!

So, wise mamas, I'd really welcome your advice here. You've been giving me some great advice & I think it will help in the long-term, but what do I do in the short-term? What should I have done in that situation, or what do I do if/when it happens again? I don't know how to gently handle him when he outright refuses to go to bed... or when he refuses to go to his room to calm down, as in the previous example. I feel like he's the "boss" --I just can't get him to cooperate. I don't get it. Was he that overtired last night? Or is it possible he just isn't tired *enough*? Tonight he pulled the same thing again, coming out of his room over & over w/ a different excuse each time. This, despite us discussing w/ him how bedtime was going to go tonight--i.e., NOT like last night. (Also, DH had told him that b/c he went to bed so late last night, that he couldn't watch TV today, & the TV stayed off. I couldn't really think of a logical consequence to his not going to bed last night, except that he might be tired today, which he was, but not enough apparently that it made a difference in tonight's bedtime. He did ask me to play something w/ him at one point today, & I told him I couldn't b/c I had to take care of some things that I didn't get to do last night b/c of him repeatedly coming out of his room. Not sure if that made things worse though, b/c he apparently needs the attention.) Unfortunately, tonight I just lost it & yelled at him to go to bed.







He started crying but did go back to his room & fell asleep sometime around 9:00, an hour after we had tucked him in the first time. I feel bad but don't know what else to do. I am going to post over on the Nighttime Parenting board at some point, but right now I feel like it's almost more of a discipline problem to GET him to sleep--ugh! For now though, I am exhausted & am going to try to enjoy a cup of tea to unwind before bed-or at least before DS2 wakes up to nurse&#8230;. Thanks for reading this far!


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## Tjej (Jan 22, 2009)

It sounds like you told him to be quiet while you were on the phone and to go to/stay in bed, he did neither of those things, and there was no particular consequence. I understand the need to compose yourself instead of getting into a fight with him, but ultimately I personally think that if I am going to say "I expect X" then I am going to follow through on it and expect that behavior. If I don't really totally expect it, I don't say it.

So for the room thing, I'd take him by the hand and bring him back there, and/or block him with your body and walk him back to his room. I suppose picking him up is an option if he doesn't fight you about it. But if he does then don't do that. Both for the phone thing and for the going to bed at night. I think you CAN keep him in his room if you really want to and expect to. And if you don't, then I don't think you should tell him to do it.

Have you ever heard of Virtues parenting? It is about talking about virtues with kids and calling them to the virtues - like using their respect or gentleness or courage (or whatever the situation calls for). I really like it and think it might give you the words/tools to use when dealing with defiance like you've described.

Tjej

ETA: I'm not trying to be mean about how you handled him today. I get it and have done the same thing when I have been absolutely and utterly spent. Hopefully you are not this exhausted every day - if you are, maybe YOU need the earlier bedtime







. If you are consistently not too exhausted to discipline him, then once in a while won't undo all the work you have done, but if you usually don't have the energy or emotional reserves to do it then you need to find a way to nurture yourself so you have more to give/use.


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## mom2grrls (Jul 24, 2008)

What is his sleeptime(the time he actually falls asleep) and his wake up time? I've been reading Sleepless in America and for a 5 y/o she recommends 12 hrs(including nap). Perhaps he needs an earlier bedtime(at 8 he may have already had his "sleepy" window and now is overtired). Perhaps he needs help settling down once in bed-massage, rubbing the back, soft music, etc. Maybe he just wants someone to sit with him while he falls asleep. Does he get caffeine(chocolate, drinks) within a few hours of bed? How much TV does he watch, does he play video games, computer?


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## mandee (Jul 20, 2005)

Tjej - Thanks for your response!







And I didn't think you were trying to be mean at all, by the way. You described exactly what happened, & I know that I didn't handle things well b/c there was no consequence for his actions, but that is the problem-I don't know how to "enforce" the request/consequence. So therfore, there is essentially no consequence to his actions.







Not only did he not quiet down when I asked him to when I was on the phone, but he got even more defiant, made faces at me, etc., which just really upsets me when he is so disrespectful like that. And then he wouldn't go to his room when I asked him to, but... I don't know how to "make" him go unless I physically carry him up there, & he's just too heavy for me to pick up & carry up the stairs. And I'm sure there would be kicking & more screaming en route to his room (DH has carried him to his room in such circumstances, & that's usually what happens). So&#8230; what do I do? And how do I keep him in his room at bedtime, short of putting a lock on his door on the outside, which just seems cruel (& probably unsafe). I'm failing miserably here, I know.







And yes, you are probably right--I need an earlier bedtime too! I am spent, & that's not helping! But alas, these few short hours when DS1 & DS2 are actually asleep are often the only time I get anything done....

mom2grrls - Up until a few weeks ago, his sleeptime was about 8:00 p.m. & his wake-up time was 7:00, which seemed to be fine. (He hasn't taken a regular afternoon nap since he was about 4.) But lately, his sleeptime has been more like 9:00 (w/ those few nights this past week going 'til 9:30 & even 10:30!!







), but his wakeup time is still around 7; sometimes he'll sleep in 'til around 7:30. I don't know if it's b/c he's out of school now-maybe he's just not as tired? But he still has morning activities 2 days a week, & preschool was only 3 days a week, so I don't know. Is it possible he needs an even earlier bedtime?! We've tried bedtime massages, bedtime yoga/stretches, but these don't seem to help him fall asleep any earlier. He doesn't get any caffeine before bed, or ever really, unless he has a square of chocolate every so often. He's allowed to watch TV in the morning at breakfast, again around lunchtime (1 or 2 shows) & then around 5:00 he likes to watch Curious George. This TV "schedule," of course, only really happens on days we're home all day, which is rare. We don't have the TV on after 6:00 p.m. We actually cut back on his TV this past week, wondering if that might help. I had him outside b/f dinner instead & no TV at breakfast, so he watched only an hour or so around lunchtime. No difference I could see, except when he was outside too late in the day, it seemed to wind him up even more for bedtime those nights. He doesn't play video games, & he doesn't really get any computer time-that happens once in a great while.

I just ordered "Sleepless in America" from amazon.com.


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## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

*mandee*, regarding this quote of yours: _"I don't know how to gently handle him when he outright refuses to go to bed... or when he refuses to go to his room to calm down, as in the previous example. I feel like he's the "boss" --I just can't get him to cooperate. I don't get it"_

This has been a big problem for us, for a long time. My son (now age 7) comes to life at night, getting very creative and wanting to draw and play until the wee hours. AND he is very social and loves to be with us, and constantly wants to interrupt us. And it's been very painful because I need to get my work done or we don't earn as much money....so I NEED the peace-time at night. For work AND for sanity. I have shed many tears over the frustration of this.

I am sure that his being 7 now is a big factor, but I wanted to share this idea that I recently tried, which seems to be helping. My son is a "Visual" just like me, so I decided to make a chart where I could plot his bedtimes, so he could SEE how late they consistently are. And also see them going DOWN (i.e. earlier) as he has success. The other thing I did was stop playing Kitty Island. It's an imaginative type of play that he wants me to do every day but which bores the socks off me. I decided one day that if he is going to steal my nights by interrupting me every 10 minutes until 11:30, then there's no way we play Kitty Island.

So now he watches the chart (where I have every 15 minutes marked off like a day planner down the left hand side, and across the top are the days of the week), and each night I plot on the chart two things: (1) when he went to bed & turned out the lights and (2) when he put the head on the pillow to sleep. (those are two different times because he often plays in bed after lights-out. I don't care as long as he is QUIET and doesn't interrupt.) He's been eagerly following his progress on the chart and he can see his "X" (marks the spot) going down (i.e. earlier) on recent nights. He asks me how many more nights of progress before he gets Kitty Island back. So he's working toward a goal now and through the chart he can SEE his progress...the information is not just something that lives in Mommy's head. 

There are so many other things in your post that I could identify with and would like to respond to, but I don't have the time right now. I agree that there has been some really helpful advice given on this thread, though!


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## Tjej (Jan 22, 2009)

This is a bit long and rambly, but...

Well, if taking his hand and walking him to wherever doesn't work, and if body blocking him somewhere doesn't work (herding), does he flail and hit or is he a wet noodle? I guess I'd pick a spot closer than his room - a chair in the kitchen or something - get him to go there to gain self control, then talk about the incident. We have a bench in our main living room that we bring the kids to to calm down. We usually sit near them/across from them (sometimes even with/holding them - that's my DS that needs that sometimes if he's really undone). Once they calm down we talk about the problem. I try to keep it short. I think lately I've gotten too wordy and it gets tuned out, so I'm working on it again. We do eye contact, short sentences - always trying to end with the idea of what the good behavior/choice is. Then we sometimes go back and repeat the situation with my child choosing the good choice. We usually end our little talk with a hug too. If it is a big enough deal to go to the bench there is often some sort of apology that happens too.

On more thought, if it doesn't work to move him, could you wait super patiently (kind of zoned out even) just wherever he is and wait for him to calm down? Telling him you are waiting for him to calm down so you can talk?

With a kid I minded during the school year I found that waiting him out was hard the first time or two, but then it was fine and he knew that I would just wait until he did the right thing.

Do you point out to your DS that he is being rude to you? I do that with kids if they are making faces and being purposefully mean. I am matter of fact about it - "you are choosing rude behavior. I prefer to be treated with respect. Can you treat me with respect right now? Yes? Thank you. No? Then we need to be separate until you can. I am going to go do laundry. Please come tell me when you are ready to treat me respectfully so we can (do whatever is next on the daily schedule)."

For the bedtime stuff, with my DD what has helped a lot (it isn't perfect, but it has been much better again recently) is that we expect her to stay in bed, but she can have her bedside (dim) light on and play with a few things there until she is ready to go to sleep. Maybe you can talk with your DS when it ISN'T bedtime and tell him the problems you see: he needs X amount of sleep, staying up late he doesn't get it. And/or YOU need him quietly in his room by X time, how can we make that work? And have an idea or two - maybe even brainstorm crazy ideas with him and then actually try to come up with something useful. Could you sit in his doorway reading yourself a book? Sit in his room resting?

Oh, another book I thought of is Raising Resilient Children - that is probably my favorite book about relationships/parenting/conflict resolution. It is a bit repetitive, but I found it to be really insightful for me. It helped me realize a lot of what I bring to parenting in expectations/fears and how it affects how I treat my kids. It also helped me think about ways to work WITH my children and their temperments and not to fight who they are - how to see past the issues and try to work with the kids toward a solution.

Tjej


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## mandee (Jul 20, 2005)

Hi, ladies!







Sorry I haven't responded to my own thread in a while; we were out of town. Anyway... NellieKatz, thanks for your reply!







It seems you've been dealing w/ similar bedtime struggles w/ your DS as well. I like the idea of the chart. My DS is more verbal than visual though (like myself), so I wonder if the chart might work as more of a "word" chart? He is VERY keen on reading these days & is always asking me what this word says & that word says.... He's also very interested in time--what time it is, what time of day different things happen, etc.--so maybe a combination of the 2 would work for him? Actually, I probably wouldn't have to tweak your chart much for DS. I'd just need to think of the goal he'd need to work toward.... HA! Kitty Island sounds like as much fun as when DS wants me to play "Toy Story" w/ him!







Playing involves me having to say word for word what he wants me to say.







He gets very bossy! HA! Thank you for the idea!









Tjej -- Thank you so much for giving me some more practical tips for dealing w/ DS! The advice you gave me about reacting to DS's rude behavior was particularly helpful. I do often tell him when he's being rude; the only problem is that he will throw it right back at me when I am *not* being rude at all but just am asking him to get ready to go out/wash up for dinner/etc. "Mommy, that's rude!"







I'm not sure if he understands what "rude" is--he seems to equate it w/ just "things he doesn't like."









I have to share w/ you all that DS's bedtime struggles have been getting a little easier lately, but I think it's mainly b/c we've come back from traveling & he's just been WORN OUT! So he hasn't really given us a hard time about going to bed because he is in fact quite tired! I'm hoping the momentum we started here continues.... Before we went away on our trip though, DH threatened DS w/ no TV the following day if he came out of his room again at bedtime, & that actually worked--for a few more nights in a row too!







I'm not a huge fan of using "threats" to get DS to go to bed, but at that point, I was going w/ whatever worked. Now that he seems to be not as sleep-deprived, I've noticed his behavior in general has improved a little as well. Both DH & I made a point (putting into practice a lot of the great advice I received here!) to praise his good behavior. He said to me several times over the past few days, "I've been really good & nice to you, right, mom?" Yes, yes you have, DS!







And he's noticed (well, we've tried to point out to him) that we do more things together when he's behaving better--outings don't get cut short, we're able to go to a special place for lunch, we have time to read him a longer book at bedtime because he didn't throw a fit before, etc. We have many more miles to go, so to speak, before we're back on track here, but I feel like we've made some improvements in the past week or two. Thanks again, moms, for all of your help & advice! I will check back in again when I can....


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## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

We're dealing with similar issues with my just turned 5 year old, but we've had problems with him since he was about 3. It's very, very tiring.

I also am utterly baffled what to do when he absolutely refuses to listen to me. A big one is food. He is ALWAYS hungry (except at supper time, of course) and eats pretty much constantly from the minute he gets up (no clue where he puts it, he isn't even 40lbs yet). I try to get him to spread out when he eats a bit, drink more, wait until supper, not eat specific things so he doesn't eat everything in sight. I quite often tell him not to eat something, only to find him hiding in the kitchen eating it. He also eats other people's special treats, even when he has his own.

He will just flat out refuse to be disciplined. If I send him to his room for hitting, I have to stand there & hold the door knob. Which feels so *wrong*. And isn't helping, at all. The hiiting is just getting worse & worse. He's so abusive to his older brother (although some of things ds1 says to him, I think I'd hit ds1 if I were 5, too). Yesterday we were shopping & he kicked ds1 in the genitals for no apparent reason & in the leg when ds2 was mad at me.

Sorry to hijack your thread, just at my wits end here.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tjej* 
It sounds like you told him to be quiet while you were on the phone and to go to/stay in bed, he did neither of those things, and there was no particular consequence. I understand the need to compose yourself instead of getting into a fight with him, but ultimately I personally think that if I am going to say "I expect X" then I am going to follow through on it and expect that behavior. If I don't really totally expect it, I don't say it.

So for the room thing, I'd take him by the hand and bring him back there, and/or block him with your body and walk him back to his room. I suppose picking him up is an option if he doesn't fight you about it. But if he does then don't do that. Both for the phone thing and for the going to bed at night. I think you CAN keep him in his room if you really want to and expect to. And if you don't, then I don't think you should tell him to do it.

Have you ever heard of Virtues parenting? It is about talking about virtues with kids and calling them to the virtues - like using their respect or gentleness or courage (or whatever the situation calls for). I really like it and think it might give you the words/tools to use when dealing with defiance like you've described.

Tjej

ETA: I'm not trying to be mean about how you handled him today. I get it and have done the same thing when I have been absolutely and utterly spent. Hopefully you are not this exhausted every day - if you are, maybe YOU need the earlier bedtime







. If you are consistently not too exhausted to discipline him, then once in a while won't undo all the work you have done, but if you usually don't have the energy or emotional reserves to do it then you need to find a way to nurture yourself so you have more to give/use.


One thing I realized with my DD, who is 5 as well, is that I don't have to do everything immediately. I need a moment sometimes too. So I will say to her, "Mommy needs 5 minutes, and when I come back we're going to talk about why you couldn't be quiet while I was on the phone/didn't listen to me, etc."


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## mandee (Jul 20, 2005)

Devaskyla -- Sorry you're dealing w/ some of the same issues w/ your DS.







I hope you might be able to take away some of the helpful info other moms have posted here in this thread! I wish I had some advice for you about the food issues. Maybe try posting in the nutrition forums? I can tell you that one thing that worked for my DS when he was a little younger was to make up a "snack tray" in the afternoon, which was literally a divided tray with about 6 sections, which I would fill w/ a variety of healthy snacks that he could nibble on between lunch & dinner. Things like grapes, apple slices, strawberries, carrot sticks, hummus for dipping, cheese cubes, nuts, a mini muffin, etc. I would make it very fruit-&-veggie-heavy (depending on what was in season) , so this way I'd know he was getting his F&V servings in for the day. If I timed it right, he'd still be hungry enough for dinner, but if he wasn't too hungry for dinner & had only a few bites, it was fine b/c I knew he ate a well-balanced snack of sorts earlier. He stopped asking for his snack tray when he started preschool last fall b/c he was having a snack there & then eating lunch later, so he really needed only a small snack between lunch & dinner. Anyway, I don't know if the snack tray idea will work for your DS, but I thought I'd throw it out there in case it might help! Good luck to you!

madskye -- Oh, how I wish the "wait a minute" thing worked w/ my DS! Usually this just makes him more prone to throwing a tantrum! He has NO patience--like his mom!


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean I'm asking my DD to wait on anything except whatever I want to say about her behavior. Sometimes I just file the moment away until I am better able to deal with it in a calm manner. Because I need to get some space to collect myself so I don't turn into Momzilla at that point. But usually, I find if she has an undesirable behavior, I can give her a look and let her know that I saw it, and then walk away and now she's big enough that if I bring it up later, she knows what I'm talking about. At 3, I couldn't do that. But at five I can come back to something that happened earlier in the day and discuss it when we are both more level-headed. There are some things that need to be addressed immediately, but there are others that can wait at this point.


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## mandee (Jul 20, 2005)

madskye -- Oh, ok--that makes sense! Sorry I misunderstood.







Thanks!


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

Next time you go out-- tell him exactly what you expect of him. "You can have one snack and then we will go home. If you whine and ask for more then we will have to miss the next week."

And...don't argue with him. (A hard one for me!) He says the sky is green? His new name is Pumpkinhead? Fine, whatever you say. He's trying to get whatever attention he can.

And I agree with all the other Moms who say to praise the positive. Definitely keep on doing that...even if it is the little things. Let him work on getting positive attention instead!
I really like this, especially the first part. Always stop and tell your child what you expect BEFORE proceeding into known trigger situations. Lay it out plainly, give him words to use like "Mommy I need to go home now" when he starts to feel a 'gimme, gimme" tantrum ahead. Tell him he can say "I have the gimme gimmes and need to leave now Mommy" etc. When he does use his words in this way praise the ever loving heck out of him! Tell him you are so proud, so impressed by him etc.


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