# Toddler hitting/abusing older sister



## Calm

My daughter is 8 and my son is 2. As soon as she gets out of bed until she goes to bed at night, my son gets all riled up and randomly hits her, sometimes with objects, and sometimes screams right in her face. She usually does nothing to encourage or incite this, sometimes she is just sitting there trying to wake up and he starts on her. However, sometimes she is difficult with him, not sharing or whatnot but he has it good, overall.

She is starting to hide, which means I get even less time with her, which was already stretched since his birth as he is high needs.

So far, my advice has been not to retaliate, which is easy for her as she has always been passive, she doesn't even yell with much conviction. They are like chalk and cheese.

I'm wondering if I shouldn't have said not to retaliate now, as she has absolutely no recourse, and sometimes it just isn't fair on her to walk away, or not possible. We are all going insane with this.

He started hitting me about a year ago, but I ignored it, and it ended up he only hit me a couple of times and then gave up. I advised her to do the same, and it worked. He didn't hit her for a long time (he did yell in her face still, though, as my mother lives with us and has a real problem with his screaming/yelling and makes a big deal of it - this, I believe, has caused it to remain long past it's due date). But now, his hits are stronger (he is older) and my daughter doesn't ignore them, even though I think this might cause them to die out - my friend described it well by saying we become their "squeaky toy", so when we react, this is very satisfying to the average toddler.

How can we help DD protect herself, yet not infringe on DS's rights, yet not have her keep having to leave the room, hide, or some other unfair solution?


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## ssh

Have you tried time ins? For example, say "if you want to play with your sister you have to be gentle, here come with me", then pick your DS up and keep him with you a few minutes maybe letting him help you do whatever you are doing. Then remind your DS to be gentle and use a gentle voice when you are putting him back down. I've seen it work really well even with biting. My DD was still comfortable in our backpack carrier at that age. I also started telling my DD that I don't let people hurt me and hurting people is a bad idea when she was about 20 months or so. We had a "if you can't play nice, you can't play" rule and we left places if she pushed someone or threw something at someone. I like time ins because they aren't punitive but you are still defending the victims right to be safe from physical or verbal violence. I don't think teaching your DS that hurting other people is wrong is infringing on his rights. He's going to be playing with other kids and wanting to have friends so maybe just letting him hit or yell at family members is doing him an injustice. Other kids are going to smack him back or not want to play with him.

I also use time ins when I'm taking care of my granddaughter, age 3.5, and younger DD, age 4.5, at the same time. Then it's more "come help me cook/do laundry/etc. until you feel more like playing with someone". My granddaughter seems to enjoy hanging out with me, but her parents have a more punitive parenting style than I do. It's ok if the child likes having a time in since it isn't a punishment and it puts a stop to rude behavior.

We also have a family rule that if someone says "stop" you have to stop what you are doing to them. My DD was amazed that she could say one word and I'd stop brushing her hair or whatever. It's really easy to go from the concept of respecting your DC's right to say "stop" and the idea that they have to stop if some one asks them to. I started at about 18 months. At first it was more of a game, but soon it was "You can't kick daddy if he says stop. If someone says stop you have to stop."


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## mamazee

I've been telling my 8-year-old dd to do exactly what I do when the toddler hits me, gently take her hand and say "gentle" or "touch gently" and show what a soft gentle touch looks like. We're still having hitting, and she isn't even 2 yet so there's almost certainly a while yet no matter how we handle it, but my older dd is really good at just doing what I do when I get hit and doesn't get any more upset by the hitting than I get. I'm not sure how well that would work for you as your dd and mine seem to have very different personalities, but that's what we're doing anyway to give one perspective.


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## Calm

DD does say gentle, in fact, DS says it - about his drumming (which is very LOUD) and often after he hits someone, so I think he gets the concept, I just don't get why he does it. It's the only recourse she has is to tell him how she feels and ask him to stop. Much of the time I can tell it is like an accident, he gets ahead of himself. When DD starts to cry, he ALWAYS (which is incredible) says sorry and gives her a kiss and usually doesn't hit her again for the day or for a long time. She always responds (even if she is in tears) with "thank you" or "that's ok" - she is pretty amazing, in fact, both of them are really. I never told him to say sorry or any of that, he just learned it by watching us. But I'd like to avoid that in the first place, as it can go on and on sometimes.

If I pick him up he freaks, so that will be a kind of punishment. He fights being picked up unless he instigates it. He was carried in some type of sling his whole life so I think it created this earlier independence, at least, that is what other cultures show will happen and it seemed to happen to us.

What happens is someone ends up freaking out on him because he just won't listen. Yelling at him or moving him out of the way a little too roughly. I wouldn't say we "let" him bully DD, but I would say we don't know how to deal with it - we tell him how we feel, remove him from her (or vice versa) and say we don't like it and I thought we could just wait this out... how long will it take?

He actually also hits DH and takes his glasses a lot which drives him so nuts he has yelled at him about it before (he has broken his glasses twice in the past), but I'm not so worried about that because it is DH. DS doesn't hit me, and I believe that is because I wasn't his squeaky toy about it. DH and DD react, and therefore DS continues.

I've taught DS the word "frustrated", in hopes he'll use it as DD seems to frustrate him a lot, and so does life in general.

Hence why I'd love for DD to try ignoring it, as reacting to this and telling him not to etc has only caused it to get chronic. But then, now he is older, sitting there while he hits you is not such an easy feat... so I'm not sure it is an option. Feeling stuck. Kind of like when a child wants to run onto the road, at his age it is best to just not go near a road because they simply don't understand "don't go onto the road, it is dangerous". But I can't keep him away from DD like the road, kwim? He doesn't have the understanding of what he is doing and I don't have the option to "wait it out" because DD is suffering.

Edited to add: interestingly, he no longer hits the dog, and hasn't for six months or so. He kept hitting the dog a year ago until I told everyone to "back off and let the two of them work it out!" and somehow DS stopped hitting him... I personally think it is because WE stopped feeding into it with reaction. The dog didn't change in any way, only our reactions did.


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## ssh

If he doesn't like being picked up you could ask him to come sit with you and then talk about how hitting hurts and it's a bad idea to hit people. I don't think ignoring it is fair to your DD. At two I don't think just waiting this out will make it go away. Toddlers and preschoolers hit, push and throw things and some times bite when they are stressed, so unless you want to "ignore it" for another couple of years you need to teach him that hurting people is unacceptable. A child with an aggressive personality does it more. Aggression isn't bad it just needs to be expressed in socially appropriate ways. Have you tried gently stopping him and talking about why he can't hurt his sister? Have you mentioned to him that no one is allowed to hurt him, so he can't hurt other people? If he isn't verbal enough yet, sometimes just stopping a child every time they try to hit can work. Can his sister catch his hand and say "stop, you can't hurt me, be gentle"? Do the kids have their own space so they can avoid annoying each other? If so your DD could say "I don't let people hurt me" and then go play in her own space. Also these two reactions aren't as interesting as getting upset and crying after being hit. Having to play alone every time his sister prevents him from hitting her and then goes off calmly to do her own thing is a lot more boring than hitting some one, making them cry. Also it sounds like he thinks saying sorry makes it ok and it doesn't. Apologizing is good but doesn't undo the hurt.

You being like a squeaky toy is a good explanation when he was one, but now that he's two it's just a normal toddler and preschooler reaction to stress. If your DS is the only person around hitting, modeling gentle behavior isn't working on it's own.

Your DD probably gets so upset by the behavior because she feels she has to just endure it. Actually trying to teach her brother not to hit, like mamazee's DD is doing, might make her feel more empowered and not a victim in the relationship. I know your DS is old enough to understand having a family rule about stopping when people say stop.


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## coleslaw

We have had the same problem for 2 + years now and ds is almost 4 and dd is 9.5 and dd is not passive. It's been a nightmare for us. He totally freaks out at times, while it's less than before, the feelings between them are so intense that they each trigger something in each other. I hope to get some ideas from here so I'm subscribing.


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## chiefmir

my DD2 is younger than yours (she's 17 months) and my DD1 is almost 5... but DD2 is definately more aggressive and sometimes hits DD1. We've taught Becca to say the same thing we said when WE were being hit... "we don't hit! use gentle hands. when you hit, you are all-done-becca". and then she moves away and comes to one of us- and we give HER attention. this works great for us. i have a real problem with an older sibling being hit repeatedly (or otherwise mistreated) just because theya re older. i think it is great that my ODD can/does react kindly and patiently-- but I make sure to praise her and to give her attention in front of DD2. As soon as DD2 toddles over and does "nice nice" DD1 hugs her and they go back to playing.


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## showurhorns

I am glad to see everyone acknowledging it isn't ok for younger sibling to "abuse" the older sibling.
My 20 month old has become aggressive to her 13 yr old sister. My 13 yr old defiantly is old enough to understand how to react. But I still tell 20 month old that is not how we treat our sissy. She hits and talks "ugly" to her. I think she thinks she is 13 and that why she talks ugly. My 13 yr old is very gentle and a great big sis. But being 13 she does discipline the 20 month old when she is watching her. So I think dd#2 thinks it is fair play lol. I just tell dd#2 that isn't how we speak to sissy we use kind words.
My dh and 13 dd horseplay alot. I started noticing that dd#2 started hitting in response to their horseplay. So I talked to them about changing it so appeared more loving. Now dd#1 laughs instead of screaming. DD#2 now repeatedly tickles her sister. If she does happen to hit dd#1, I hug dd#1 and tell her it is ok it isn't nice when dd#2 hits. While reinforcing to DD#1 that hurts sissy feelings. Even tough dd#1 knows dd#2 doesn't mean it or she just learning to express herself. I feel it is important dd#1 know that I value her feelings too. I am sure it does hurt her feelings when she is so kind and loving that kind of behavior from her sister isn't deserved.

Maybe try to give your dd positive(hugs/cuddles,kind reassuring words) loving attention in front of ds when ds hits/screams at her. Ignore his behavior but redirect his behavior by reassuring your dd that his behavior is not ok. Let him hear your words and see you gentle loving touches to your dd, without directly acknowledging him. Not to say you do not give your ds attention but saying goes "Negative attention is still attention". He probably looking for a reaction hence attention. If he doesn't receive it than he more likely not to seek it. By giving your dd the attention you are doing two thing reinforcing her value and teaching your ds (and dd) that undesirable behavior will not be a behavior worth reward. Please do not expect your dd to just ignore it and be the "bigger" person. You are in danger of teaching her that her feelings and worth are not valued.


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## mamabutterfly

I"m also struggling with this, and have the same ages as yours, 2 and 8. Mine are both girls, but dd2 is also hitting, screaming at, and generally being aggressive towards her older sister almost all day long. I've tried to be really empathetic towards dd1 and affirm all of the things she does well with her sister. I also encourage her to walk away in the moment rather than retaliate, but I'm never sure if this is right. It does end the screaming for the moment, but I'm afraid dd2 is just keeping control of the situation, because she usually gets what she was looking for, like the toy or snack or place to sit.

So I'm kind of at a loss about what to do. DD1 never had a single tantrum in her baby/toddler years. It's hard for me to cope with this, I don't feel like I handle it well either.










One recent positive development is them finding a few games they both really love to play at this age. This has given a glimmer of hope about the relationship, and I can see dd2 wanting to keep dd1 playing with her in these situations, so she doesn't lash out (which makes older dd leave).


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## Surfacing




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## Calm

Still happening, and he is 3 and she is 9.5. I came here to start a thread only to find I had this one. That was not a great realisation. I certainly didn't ignore the hitting but it seems nothing is helping. I've almost been at the point of telling her to retaliate, because that is what an older brother would probably do and he might learn some caution if not respect that he is out of his league size wise. But I am a pacifist so I'm not really attracted to that option. I have re read this thread closely with fresh eyes to see anything I might have overlooked. The only other option is that there is an issue with my son. I might have to face that fact soon, as he really is emotionally out of control, and I can't go into details here, I feel too flat for how much effort that would take.

I'm homeschooling and oddly, that helped since we started. Either that or I'm numbing out to it now. I hope not.

I've taken him into our room onto our swing chair for "feelings" time. This works if he is reacting in anger. I actually cope better with aggressive outbursts as they seem to make sense... we all react poorly with anger and frustration at times, and I am great with tantrums and expressions of anger (hey, I gotta point out my good points when I find 'em!). But it is the threatening with a stick/knife/etc by waving it in front of her that I can't get a handle on. He isn't angry, in fact, he seems to be enjoying it. I refer to it as when he is "playing her like a conductor", because as an observer, that is what it looks like. He waves something in front of her, and she screams and yells and so on at him and he just smiles and keeps doing it.

I should add here that it has been commented on gently by others that my daughter tends to overreact. This is true, plus she is hypersensitive. They both put their fingers in their ears when other kids seem fine with the noise levels of an event... I think they are both easily overwhelmed. So I must add that into the equation for solutions. I have mentioned that she might like to see if he will actually hit her, or if he is just enjoying the show she puts on. She tried it and said, "I feel like you're going to hit me" and he calmly replied, "I'm not going to hit you." How much truth is in that is yet to be seen but that was just today.

For several months I can't take him to social occasions with children younger than him, esp babies. He pinches them really hard, sometimes getting a fistful of their back or arm flesh and pulling. I am very vigilant with it, and when I see him making a beeline for a young one, I dash right beside him to guide him through it. We are "that" family that others make a wide berth around, and eventually I have to literally pick him up and drag him out (of the library, park, where ever we are) for the safety and comfort of others. If I see him reach out for a young one, I will gently grab his arm and say, "we wait until invited to touch our friends" (or something else just as lame) and if he has tried to hurt them, I will say to be gentle and he says, "I want to hit the baby. I wanna hurt the baby. Hurt the baby hurt the baby." WTF?? We're a gentle family so this is just freaking me OUT.

He is smiling when he does it so I don't know how much is for effect and how much he even understands of what he is saying. I remember as a little girl I gave an arm burn by twisting the flesh of a younger girl when no one was looking. I try to remind myself of that time so I don't start thinking I'll find three 6's in his hair one day.

Anyway, ack. So, aside from aggression from emotions (which I'm ok with, even though his emotions are frequent and intense and he won't take no for an answer) it is this torturing of his sister that doesn't seem to be emotionally based, although I'm sure in some way it is, it looks more like part of his fun. He only actually hurts her by pulling her hair or hitting her if he is angry and part of that I'm trying to teach him to express another way and part of it I am trying to help DD see him as a baby, not as an equal as she does tend to frustrate the living heck out of him and expect more from him than he can achieve right now. My concern is that he screams most of the time, and I feel like pulling him up on the screaming isn't fair but pulling her up on not being fair isn't fair either... if you follow. He isn't like this with his cousin. He is a quiet little mouse when she is around. So he has it in him, he just has no respect for his sister. He won't listen to her at all, and if I pull him up on something, he'll get upset and go over and hit HER for it.

BTW, he still tortures the dog. He does the same thing to him as he does to his sister by waving something in front of him like he is going to hit him with it and the dog now bites DS regularly.

Ok, so I'll leave it at that for now. Any takers?


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## NiteNicole

You really need to get on the situation with the dog and "letting them work it out" is just dangerous. When the dog FINALLY reacts and takes up for itself, what then? Rehome the dog if you have to. It's unfair to let your son torture an animal. If you can't keep them apart, find the dog a safe home because while your daughter is unlikely to one day get fed up and bite a chunk out of your son, your dog might.

As for the rest - that seems way over the top to me. I'm sure your daughter DOES react in a big way, it's not the incident at hand she's reacting to, it's several years of torment and apparently she's not allowed to defend herself. Other than freaking out, what real choice does she have?

Have you discussed this with your ped? I know the tendency is to say oh, he's just three, he doesn't understand...but he does understand the dog, his sister, and babies are good targets and his cousin is not so clearly he has some understanding and self-control when it's in his interest.


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## tinuviel_k

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NiteNicole*
> 
> You really need to get on the situation with the dog and "letting them work it out" is just dangerous. When the dog FINALLY reacts and takes up for itself, what then? Rehome the dog if you have to. It's unfair to let your son torture an animal. If you can't keep them apart, find the dog a safe home because while your daughter is unlikely to one day get fed up and bite a chunk out of your son, your dog might.
> 
> As for the rest - that seems way over the top to me. I'm sure your daughter DOES react in a big way, it's not the incident at hand she's reacting to, it's several years of torment and apparently she's not allowed to defend herself. Other than freaking out, what real choice does she have?
> 
> Have you discussed this with your ped? I know the tendency is to say oh, he's just three, he doesn't understand...but he does understand the dog, his sister, and babies are good targets and his cousin is not so clearly he has some understanding and self-control when it's in his interest.


I pretty much agree with all of this.

If you can't keep your son and the dog separated, and he refuses to behave himself around the dog then it is probably time to find the dog a new home. When the dog finally defends himself with a serious bite you won't be able to rehome the dog: you'll have to put him down. Even if the dog never gives your son a "break the skin" bite it is still rather cruel to keep exposing your dog to constant abuse.

Likewise, the situation is becoming worse for your daughter. It sounds like she might have quite a lot of anxiety about this. I agree that it might be time to talk to a counselor or a pediatrician to try to get some more ideas for how to help your son, and also for your daughter to give her some real ways to defend herself that work.


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## mokey4

This sounds pretty serious to me, I think you should talk it over with your pediatrician with all the details, including about the dog, babies, and noise sensitivity. Maybe he has SPD and is reacting to being stressed by sensory information all the time? Or there could be some other issue, but this does not sound like regular 3 year old stuff.


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## mokey4

I want to add.. I'm sorry that you've been going through this. It sounds like you've tried everything, and that you have provided a gentle, loving environment. That's partly why it seems serious.. there's no explanation other than something going on inside your DS.


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## Calm

Sorry, I should have mentioned, initially letting the dog and DS work it out worked, as the dog growled and snarled and DS stopped, but largely because we stopped reacting... I thought. But whatever the reason, it didn't last, but we didn't let the dog bite DS and do nothing, or DS annoy the dog and do nothing. It's been a long time since that technique (I started this thread over a year ago).

We are on it, right away. But it is constant at times and luckily the dog lives downstairs with my mother and brother so they are mostly apart. And mostly it was that threatening by waving something in his face, and not actual hitting. It's like this kid just doesn't learn and I keep trying to tell myself it is just that my daughter was so easy that he seems so, well, slow to learn and difficult, but I'm not so sure now.

NNicole when you said this: Other than freaking out, what real choice does she have?

That is what I'm asking. Exactly what I'm asking. When I started this thread a year ago, things were different, but we've tried everything now and nothing is stopping it. I'm looking for creative solutions as she seems to have no options, and like I said, I even considered telling her to retaliate... even though I don't think she really could, she is very gentle.

The worst part of this I have written about SO many times on MDC but my threads went largely unanswered... It has been hard to say the least but the worst part is his screaming. He screams over everything. If you asked those in my life, they would tell you that DD has pushed DS to the brink. To show her, I once videotaped them in secret and played it back to her. She was shocked at how badly she treated him (this was a year or so ago). She threw a huge ball in his face, she took anything he was holding, he would speak to her and she would ignore him and this kind of thing would go on until he exploded. It isn't one sided, and I do wonder why he is so obviously frustrated with her, it has been an extremely tough battle because they both add something to the mix. I don't know how to fix it... DD, being older, is getting better with him. He is great when she is not around. I'm not blaming her, I'm not suggesting she "asks for it" and I'm not going to pull the line that the victim of aggression deserves it or any of that... I'm saying that together it is a really stressful mix. I can't keep them apart for obvious reasons, but holy cow how I'd love to.

I did one month of Aware Parenting counselling over this, which was about helping him release his big emotions etc but it didn't help. The main reason is I find it difficult to help him release at every outburst, as they are so frequent and he just tells me to "go away, I'm going to get lost" and walks away like the whole world is against him.

I'm not sure what my question is anymore... but I'm fairly convinced I will be seeing an OT about this. I've had secret concerns over him since he was a baby. My mother is very anti-diagnosis, so I took it as a huge sign when she said, "that screaming is not normal, you need to sort this out". But what she means is, I need to start punishing/hitting/disciplining him as she puts down his whole thing to my parenting (and yay, hasn't THAT helped). Yet, I parented DD the same non-punitive way and she is not a lunatic. I don't believe this needs punishing, I think it needs something else. I don't believe in punishment.


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## Calm

I must admit, one of my hesitations with seeing a professional is that they will be mainstream and give me unhelpful advice. I asked my doctor for a referral to get some tests as I wondered about aspergers or allergy or something, but she said, "Oh you don't need that. He's fine. He just needs some behaviour management, like time out and so on." I mean, she judged him in five minutes as being "fine", and then suggested time out? That is typical, and I'm growing weary of it. I'm sick of the pendulum of feeling that I'm not doing enough for him yet then being told I'm over-analysing and jumping to the worst conclusion. I can't win.

I want some radical who is like Alfie Kohn or Lawrence Cohen who see children as whole humans, not as dogs that need training.

Edited to put pics of them in... just to make them more than words on a page, and cos I think they're so gorgeous, a facebook album.


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## Natalie12

I just wanted to say that I can really sympathize. My daughter is like that in a lot of ways, complete with hurting an older sibling, although he's only 18 months older than her. We did finally end up getting a diagnosis for her, and it's helped so much. Hang in there until you get professional advice that helps- we went through 2 counselors before we found one that stuck.


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## NiteNicole

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Calm*
> 
> I must admit, one of my hesitations with seeing a professional is that they will be mainstream and give me unhelpful advice. I asked my doctor for a referral to get some tests as I wondered about aspergers or allergy or something, but she said, "Oh you don't need that. He's fine. He just needs some behaviour management, like time out and so on." I mean, she judged him in five minutes as being "fine", and then suggested time out? That is typical, and I'm growing weary of it. I'm sick of the pendulum of feeling that I'm not doing enough for him yet then being told I'm over-analysing and jumping to the worst conclusion. I can't win.
> 
> I want some radical who is like Alfie Kohn or Lawrence Cohen who see children as whole humans, not as dogs that need training.
> 
> Edited to put pics of them in... just to make them more than words on a page, and cos I think they're so gorgeous, a facebook album.


I understand that Alfie Kohn and things like that sound good in theory but it just does not sound like that approach to discipline (or life) is working for your family. At all. Every kid is different, every dynamic is different and our ideals don't always match the children we actually HAVE.

I have a LOT of questions - how is their sleep, how is their diet, how much time do they get outside to be kind of "wild" and get all the energy out? Do they have time apart? Does your daughter regularly get to go somewhere and be with other kids (classes, clubs, anything)? Appropriate sleep, nutrition, and exercise can at least give them a good start. Time apart would help them break up this dynamic they have together. Do you keep them busy? Do you have things set up for them to do at the same time, but not necessarily together? When she takes things from him, do you call her on it calmly and make her return it? When he hits his sister, what do you do? Do you tell him if he hits he can't play with her and redirect him to something else, while paying attention to HER and not giving HIM a big reaction? Have you given her words to use instead of just a big screaming reaction? Have you told her to say NO, you can not hit me and walk away?

We have a similar dynamic with my daughter and my two nieces (we are all together a LOT and often I'm the only adult) and I've found some things that work. It's not perfect but it's so much better and I know it's not at all the same as siblings, but it was really difficult there for awhile.

When my daughter was young, I really liked the idea of a go-with-the-flow kind of life. We would eat when we were hungry and sleep when we were tired and everyone would negotiate everything and we would all respect each other and I would NEVER say, "BECAUSE I SAID SO, THAT'S WHY" but...that does not work for my family. At all. We all end up miserable. In fact, my daughter NEEDS really routine sleep, food, rest, exercise, etc. My life does not match my original parenting ideals but...those things were making my family miserable. Sometimes you have to abandon your ideals for your real life because no matter how good a theory sounds or how much we want it to work, it does not work for our children - or at least, not in the way we envisioned. I also always thought it would be better to let the kids work out their own differences and not hover but in practice, it's been better for me to get involved and give them words to say or even separate them if I have to. They're still just children and they need guidance and examples.


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## Calm

Thanks to both of you.

I wouldn't say I have a philosophy or ideals or anything. I parent as though they are people, I respect them and I treat them as I would anyone I care about. When I've tried formulas, it doesn't work. I found that there are certain authors or philosophies I resonate with, but it isn't about what suits my children, it is about what makes sense to me. I can't abide punishment because it makes no sense. I don't reward because it makes no sense. I don't do these things to my husband or my mother, and I couldn't do them to my children. I mentioned those authors because they are most like me. I don't believe any philosophy fits any child completely... but I do believe that every child fits being respected and simply treated like any other person, not like a dog that needs training. I find all training or behaviour focused approaches to be disrespectful of any person, whether adult or child. I believe all behaviour has an underlying emotion or issue... it's just applying it takes much more time and energy than I have. I wouldn't get anything else done, as DS is so tightly wound.

A large part of the problem might be that I am not in the mix enough. They go out on the trampoline for instance and I should be near them to guide them but I'm usually upstairs doing dishes or something. I find I can't do it all, esp with a house with stairs that makes getting to them every single time difficult. Good questions though, and I could probably answer them by listing them:

Quote:


> I have a LOT of questions - how is their sleep


Excellent. My son still cosleeps but he is solid all night. My daughter has her own room and has mentioned waking in the middle of the night recently but then I woke her early for a couple of days and reset her body clock, and she slept through again.

Quote:


> how is their diet


Excellent. They eat a ton of raw food. They prefer it. They eat some cooked food, but they just want simple stuff. My son only finished bfing a few months ago. If I cook, they are less likely to eat. Recently DS got worse for two days (hence coming back to this thread!) and I couldn't figure the cause. I then noticed a juice I bought had preservatives in it and he had just drunk the whole lot over a period of 24 hours. I am very careful about that kind of thing but I messed up that time because it was fresh squeezed orange juice with pulp so I was fooled. Today he was better. As their diet is so good, I believe small things like that are more easily noticed in them.

Quote:


> how much time do they get outside to be kind of "wild" and get all the energy out?


Outside every day, but I'm not sure anywhere is appropriate for the kind of screaming my son does. The neighbours have actually yelled over the fence several times. One of them asked me if he was autistic.

Quote:


> Do they have time apart?


When my daughter was at school, yes. Not so much anymore. I would like my son to have his own "space", like DD does. I think it is time for him to have a place to retreat to. We don't have a third room spare, but I am considering some kind of corner for him, that will be only his. Actually, that is an idea I got out of a book, so I guess now and again I take some ideas like that. My days with him while DD was at school were easier.

Quote:


> Does your daughter regularly get to go somewhere and be with other kids (classes, clubs, anything)?


We are part of a couple of homeschooling groups. Twice a week we are social. It is smoothing out now, it took a while to get a social situation working. I think she needs to have friends over more often.

Quote:


> Do you keep them busy?


No. I have to interrupt their play to get them to do anything with me.

Quote:


> Do you have things set up for them to do at the same time, but not necessarily together?


As a homeschooler, I find this a tough challenge. I need more one on one time with DD but DS is difficult to occupy. Once he can use a computer mouse it will be easier but at the moment, I feel like I get a whole lot of nothing achieved most days.

Quote:


> When she takes things from him, do you call her on it calmly and make her return it?


Yes. Although, I see perhaps 10% of them.

Quote:


> When he hits his sister, what do you do?


I hold DD and sympathise and if she is upset, I offer to fix it in some way. I have done various things like ask DS to fix it, and he will then kiss her, say sorry or get her a bandaid or just say no and walk away. I don't force that, I just ask if he would like to make amends. I have also asked him why he did it... he doesn't seem to understand the question. So I help him with words (frustrated? Can't get the words you need? etc) I tell him it hurts to be hit, and it isn't ok to hit her. I offer for him to get "feelings out" and 50% of the time he takes me up on it and has a cry or scream on my lap, or just sits and looks at me or tries to play it out - I make hand puppets and they play out the scene. I find after a session like that, he is great for the rest of the day, so I try to initiate those but it doesn't always happen.

Quote:


> Have you given her words to use instead of just a big screaming reaction?


Yes, but he doesn't listen. This whole defiance thing I was warned about is really strong in this boy. She needs to act. Your advice about her walking away is probably the best thing for her as listening is not his strong suit. Or, perhaps he listens but he does not like to do anything she asks, in fact, if she says "don't touch your nose", he touches his nose. He really does NOT get negation. Come to think of it, I should help her formulate her sentences in the positive the way I learned to, and avoid the word "don't", because he only hears the rest of the sentence ("don't put toilet rolls in the toilet" to him means "put ALL the toilet rolls into the toilet", for instance). He actually used to come to me really happy and say, "MAMA! I put the toilet rolls in the toilet!" as though I asked him to... he seemed so confused and devastated when I wasn't happy and told him "Please, DON'T put the toilet rolls in the toilet, it is making mama sad." but he would do it anyway (if he got a hold of one, as we ended up hiding them)... it is mind boggling, and I struggled to find a way to phrase it. I ended up saying, "leave the toilet rolls on the holder". He hasn't done it since.

Quote:


> Have you told her to say NO, you can not hit me and walk away?


As a matter of fact I really stressed this point tonight at dinner. I told her that she can't "forget" anymore, as she is being tormented and she can't just accept that. If she decides it isn't a big deal, whatever he is doing, then fine... but if she finds what he is doing to be stressful, she needs to tell him and then walk away. I really think if she can remember to do that he won't risk pushing her away like he does now. I made it a big point, in an effort to not only restate my support for her but to encourage her to use her personal power.

Essentially, if I am right there, at all times, things are ok. If I can step in at all issues, things are ok. Perhaps I'm expecting too much to think they can play together alone yet?

Natalie, may I ask what the diagnosis was? What is the treatment, or steps, that you do now?


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## thismama

Remember that it is as important for your daughter to know it is not okay for her to be hit and you will protect her, as it is for your son to learn not to hit. I would respond with a consequence for him, and/or by displaying anger toward him and protective behaviour toward her. I have been on the end of this wherein I was the mother of the girls who were targeted randomly by aggressive boys, and the mothers IMO were too passive and overly concerned with his feelings, and underconcerned wiht my daughters' experiences and their feelings. She doesn't just need empathy, she needs protection. And he will survive learning that hitting is NOT allowed and will result in negative consequences, that he will be stopped and punished for it (the lightest punishment that is effective, even a firm 'No that is NOT allowed' or a timeout or removal of a favoured toy.


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## Mittsy

A few random ideas I'll shoot out here... Have you tried any elimination diets, like gf/cf/sf, feingold's, scd? I found my dd(and me too) have a issue with gluten and pasteurized dairy, we're also soy free, hfcs/trans-fat/preservative free, and working towards sugar free. Have you tried magnesium supplements? Getting him tested to see if his vitamin/mineral levels are where they should be? Have you considered the possibility of sensory issues? I'm hoping you're looking into counseling for the entire family, but especially for both of your children.

Here is a checklist for sensory processing disorder, you may want to take a look at it or possibly mention it to your doctor and have your ds evaluated. Best of luck.

http://www.sensory-processing-disorder.com/sensory-processing-disorder-checklist.html


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## Eligracey

This sounds really frustrating. You say that you're a gentle family and don't think either rewards or punishments are OK. However, you're considering allowing your daughter to retaliate (by which you mean hitting back?). It seems to me that if you want to keep continue being as non-violent as possible, using time-out is a much better path than letting your daughter hurt your son back.

Also, you said that you don't do punishments or rewards to your kids because you wouldn't do them to your husband or your mother. That's just not true. *We punish and reward other adults all day long*, it's just that the punishments and rewards are different than stickers or toys or time outs because those don't work for adults. When I get mad at someone for saying something really offensive, I walk away mid-conversation, that's a punishment. When my boss gets mad at me for screwing up, she fires me (not really, hasn't happened, but it could!), that's a punishment. When my exhusband used to be really helpful and sweet, I would make him his favorite dinner, that's a reward. When my friend is greatful for my support and bringing over food several times after a family death, she writes me a thank-you card with a little poem about friendship, that's a reward. All these small daily rewards and punishments shape our behavior throughout our lives. I wouldn't go to work every day if I wasn't rewarded with a paycheck, I just don't like my job well enough to do that!

I think your options are 1) allow your son to continue hurting your daughter and for her to drift farther and farther away from you, resentful that you won't protect her, or 2) implement discipline that involves rewards and punishments. You might want to read "123 Magic," it works like a charm with my son. Another option is taking your son to a behavior therapist and getting some parent training for yourself.


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## Oh the Irony

My son, who is now 7, went through an aggressive period from about ages 2-5. In his case, there was some obvious trauma where it made sense that he was doing that. Here's what worked for me:

1) Play therapy. He had a great playtherapist who also used EMDR. She was really cool and understood my parenting.

2) Feingold diet. It was challenging to do it as my son loves fruit and you have to cut out salicates (sp?).

3) I used the Nurtured Heart Approach-Parenting the Challenging Child by Howard Glasser. He talks a lot about the parent as toy concept that you mention. When they find they push buttons they keep pushing them. The techniques were not ones I would have been drawn towards normally--but it was an extreme situation that needed to be dealt with. I modified it some. It is about noticing and commenting (praising!) the good things and energizing them. I wasn't totally anti-praise like some folks around here but it was certainly more than I would normally do.He really loves praise. I look at it like his love language is "words of affirmation". If that is a child's love language and they are in a family that doesn't believe in praise that seems unfortunate. I think there is a way to do meaningful praise that is directed at the very heart of a child. (I think the book is for older children but you can apply some of it.)

I did 2 & 3 at the same time because I was desperate. So I'm not totally sure what had the most effect, but he was a different child in about two weeks. Calmer and able to control himself.

Not saying this will work for your child--it is very individual. My son still requires more from me as a parent--he keeps me on my toes but things are good now.

I do think what you describe is out of the "norm" in terms of the extremity. There are professionals out there that are respectful of parents and can help. It can be really tricky to tease out what is going on. There is a tendency to over diagnose SPD and you can drop thousands on OT--most of which isn't rocket science. I do find evaluations helpful though--it is information. I've found great people for both my kids but it took some time.

It is hard as parents when things don't go as we intend. It raises questions about what we are doing wrong, etc. I find I have much more compassion for parents of challenging children now. We tend to blame the parents when a child is acting out. Parents certainly have to look for answers but some kids are SO MUCH MORE than other kids that people don't understand. Things that work with other kids (like that nice rational discussion about why hitting is bad) won't work with all kids. Anyway, you may have to change some of your parenting beliefs because he may need you to respond differently.

And one thing will probably not "fix" this issue. You have to try different approaches and it is ongoing. Good luck. I feel for you, I really do.


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## MsFortune

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Eligracey*
> 
> 2) implement discipline that involves rewards and punishments. You might want to read "123 Magic," it works like a charm with my son.


Total thread jack, but thanks for the book recommendation. I was just reading some threads looking for book recommendations for a gentle discipline tactic that involves rewards and punishments in addition to natural consequences. This might be the ticket.


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## Eligracey

You're welcome! I think it's a good book but to be honest probably needs supplementing with other books, for example I'm pretty sure it doesn't go over how to do sticker charts.

My favorite technique for my 2.5 year old is the Either/Or: "Either you can put on your jacket yourself or I'll do it for you" and of course he wants to do everything himself and so he happily does it. You can apply this to everything in toddler-land, I swear.


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## savithny

Okay, a few thoughts, not in order:

1) A lot of what you describe in *both* of your kids speaks to me of sensory issues. Both sensory avoiding (noise) and sensory seeking (hitting and making noise). I think your idea of consulting with an OT is a good one -- we had OT evaluation through school when my DS was 7, and it was really a good thing.

2) My sensory kid was the one who made liars out of a lot of GD experts. NOT in the "GD is wrong and doesn't work" way, but just that some of the commonest GD techniques recommended across the GD board simply were not right for him. Everyone says "Oh, you just have to tell them X," or "Oh, if you do Y, they'll get it." Nope.

3) In general, we figured out that we were talking far too much. Talking so much was simply overwhelming to him, especially when he was getting overwhelmed with sensory and emotional input and on the verge of flpping out. We had to pick one message and shorten it drastically to get it through. In the heat of the moment, explaining and justifying and explaining made things worse, and prevented the important message from getting through. ("You must stay away from the swings!" worked better than "Oh, honey, if you walk so close to teh swings the girl who is swinging will kick you in the head and that will hurt and you will be sad and she will be sad that she hurt you so you can't play so close to the swings when a person is swinging, please."

4) Playful parenting techniques infuriated him. If he was having a serious or difficult moment, trying to distract him with games or jolly him out of it wtih sillyness was percieved, I think, as insulting and condescending. BOTH my kids hated just about all Playful Parenting tactics, and made this very clear. "NO LAUGHING AT ME MAMA!"

5) Too many choices were almost as bad as too many words. Yes, we wanted to respect his wishes and give him as much autonomy as was age appropriate. However, overwhelming him with options when he was already feeling overwhelmed with incoming sensations was really upsetting to him.

6) You say your DS doesn't get negation -- it's good you noticed that. My DS could not really process "if - then" statements at that age, so all the advice to "Tell him if he holds your hand then he can walk" and things like that? Totally inappropriate. His brain wasn't holding the idea of order of operations, of "first we do X, then we do Y," or "If we do X, then we can do Y." And repeating messages like that over and over just made him more and more frustrated.

In general, some kids get really overwhelmed with a certain style of GD. IT's not really developmentally appropriate to expect it of them, and they respond better as toddlers and preschoolers to a more parent-directed interaction, with a simple message and clear expectations/limits. This doesn't mean ditching gentleness. It doesn't mean spanking and timeouts and artificial consequences, or using shaming. And a kid who doesnt' do well with discussion at age 3 or 4 can grow into it -- now that my kids are older, we *do* talk things out, present alternatives, discuss reasoning, and all that. And the kid who melted down if you tried multi-clause statements as a toddler? Is the one willing to discuss and come to agreements now.


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## freestylemama

I read the whole thread and find a lot of it really alarming. You need to intervene and set some boundaries. Gentle discipline doesn't mean no discipline. I almost didn't respond because this hits home so much and I feel really triggered but I'll just say this- as the mother of a child who has permanent scars from a child who sounds a lot like your son- you absolutely need to address this now! It sounds like he needs more structure and rules and most likely some professional help. It sounds like you would all benefit from professional assistance. It's not fair to the babies and your daughter and the other kids your son comes in contact with for him to be allowed to terrorize them. We don't interact with the kid who hurt DD anymore and I am still livid at his parents for their laid back (gentle discipline= no discipline) approach to their aggressive son. We don't hit or shame either, but we do indeed have boundaries, expectations, rules and discipline. It doesn't have to be all or nothing and some children absolutely need to know boundaries. I believe firmly that one child's right to express themselves ends where another child's safety and dignity begins.

I am also really, really concerned about the dog situation. The entire thing is problematic, but the dog thing can be fixed. If your son can't be kind to the dog, the dog needs a new home.


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## joensally

This is hard stuff, but I think there are things you can do. 

We had similar issues when DS was young. He has an SPD diagnosis. He used to hit his sister a lot. She tried retaliating, and it didn't work. She was also a child, and so I didn't leave it to her to figure out - I protected her as much as I could. I also recognized that sometimes she was kind of obnoxious to her brother because a) sibs do that, and b) she was fed up with being abused.

I would really recommend posting in the SN board or your tribe to get recommendations for a service provider and look at an EI evaluation. Your family needs help learning strategies to help your son learn to self-regulate and manage his big emotions and reactions. Yes, some service providers are "mainstream" but there are plenty who get attachment and GD. Another point is that AP is about meeting a child's needs, and it sounds like your son needs external self-regulation (ie from a caring adult) because he hasn't developed those skills yet.

1-2-3 Magic is a difficult read as the author uses a circus animal analogy. The gist is that kids need to know what to expect, and the counting is just giving them an opportunity to pause, think and decide their next move (not how the author would frame it, but how I believe it is). With kids with impulse control issues, they need help to pause. So it's rough the first week or so and the child does end up getting a number of time outs.(we did them together on the bottom step). In not very long, I rarely got to "2." When the kids were a bit older, I'd flat out say to them "you know, if I have to start counting it means that you guys are not showing a lot of self-control and are being pretty unpleasant. Could we regroup please and find a better way to be with family/friends/people at the library?" 1-2-3 doesn't have to be totalitarian if it's done with clear explanations and respectfulness. We used 1-2-3 as a way to impose external self-regulation when a child needed it - kids are usually doing the best they can, and when they're not doing well, I think that they need help. I wouldn't call the book a great go-to method as it really is about simple compliance as it's written - I think the method needs to be modified and fit within a larger array of strategies.

I like Kurcinka's Kids, Parents and Power Struggles. I also like the Transforming the Difficult Child book. I'm a big fan of When the Labels Don't Fit for the author's attention to the experience of parenting a complicated child.

I'm going to repeat this as I think it's really important - AP and GD are about meeting a child's needs, and meeting a child where they're at. Many books are written thinking of the typical child who is not regularly overwhelmed by what's going on inside them and what is going on around them. When you're dealing with a child who's highly reactive and often unregulated, you need to help them regulate before you can expect them to be "rational" or "thoughtful." The skills are in how they, as an individual, need you to help them regulate while they develop the skills to do it themselves. Allowing a child to be perpetually unregulated is unkind, IMO. And as they get bigger they are harder to influence, so staring early is wise.


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## savithny

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *joensally*
> 
> I'm going to repeat this as I think it's really important - AP and GD are about meeting a child's needs, and meeting a child where they're at. Many books are written thinking of the typical child who is not regularly overwhelmed by what's going on inside them and what is going on around them. *When you're dealing with a child who's highly reactive and often unregulated, you need to help them regulate before you can expect them to be "rational" or "thoughtful." The skills are in how they, as an individual, need you to help them regulate while they develop the skills to do it themselves. Allowing a child to be perpetually unregulated is unkind, IMO. * And as they get bigger they are harder to influence, so staring early is wise.


This is exactly my experience (and a much shorter, more succint version of much of what I said above).

With time, my son learned ways to check himself, to stop, take a moment, regroup, self-assess, and regulate. You could see it happening -- he'd start down the slippery slope toward meltdown and then, suddenly, one of the things we worked on would kick in. He'd take a deep breath. He'd center himself. He'd stop and rephrase.

But that came after a lot of work and help from us.

(We also found that 1-2-3 worked well to help cue him, to give him that "stop, wait" moment. At school, his 2nd grade teacher worked out a nonverbal cueing system with him to help him realize he was doing something that needed stopping, so that she could make him aware before it got bad, without embarassing him in front of his peers. It worked really well).


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## stik

A lot of toddlers go through an aggressive period. However, not hitting people is a really important social boundary that needs to be taught. Your son is going to need your help to sort this out - he cannot be left to do it on his own. Children who have to work out social boundaries without guidance typically wind up ostracized because their behavior hurts others. This is deeply damaging to their self-esteem. Caring parental intervention is faster, more effective, and protects the child's self-concept in the long run.

Right now, your ds probably has a lot of reasons for hitting your dd, but underlying all of them is his experience with being allowed to hit his sister. In other words, your ds is hitting your dd (and other people and animals) because you allow him to do so. If you continue to allow your ds to hit people, other children will fear and avoid him, adults will react to him in a negative way, and he will probably be seriously hurt by your dog. These experiences will eventually change his behavior, but not until he has experienced some crushing emotional wounds and been though some painful, avoidable injuries. To protect your son from these injuries, you need to stop him from hitting people and other living things.

In order to help your ds through this, you need to identify the circumstances that lead to his hitting. There is probably a pattern to this with identifiable pre-cursor behaviors. When you see these pre-cursors, or when he hits, you need to remove him from the situation. Some parents redirect to an object that is acceptable to hit. Some parents remove the child to another place to be alone, or alone with a parent.

In order for this to work, you will need to keep your ds with you all the time. Bring him from room to room with you as you work around the house. You can give him jobs to do to help you, or you can give him a little play space near you. Learning to help can also be very helpful for aggressive toddlers, because it gives them an outlet for their energy and a positive way to get adult attention.

Please don't let your son continue to hit. It isn't kind to those around him, and it isn't kind to him either.


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## midnightwriter

I agry with everything below. We GD, but it took us some time to find our own way, and it is still evolving, and not always successful. 99% of what the GD books suggest doesn't work 99% of the time. Playful parenting--forget it. Validating--leads to escalations. I have to be constantly attuned, focused, and 'working' on it--or things just don't go well. It is exhausting, but what else can be done? It is very celar to me that something more mainstream, like time outs or rewards wouldn't work either. Not only they are against my gut feeling, but they also won't work for DD, even if I can see them working for DS (but with him, there's no need).

I do get it when you say that you can't supervise a lot, as you need to do other things. But I think it is worth trying. You need to take a week, and declare your kids' interactions your first priority. It is the same if both had high fever and were throwing up--you'd be attending to them, and everything else would be put on hold. 1. Figure out how you are going to deal with the issues 2. Devote yourself entirely to the kids. BE there. Observe. Try to prevent with times in as needed. Don't let thing escalate.

This will help you to better understand what is exactly going on, what are the triggers, and you might be able to 'reset' the negative cycle this way.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *savithny*
> 
> Okay, a few thoughts, not in order:
> 
> 1) A lot of what you describe in *both* of your kids speaks to me of sensory issues. Both sensory avoiding (noise) and sensory seeking (hitting and making noise). I think your idea of consulting with an OT is a good one -- we had OT evaluation through school when my DS was 7, and it was really a good thing.
> 
> 2) My sensory kid was the one who made liars out of a lot of GD experts. NOT in the "GD is wrong and doesn't work" way, but just that some of the commonest GD techniques recommended across the GD board simply were not right for him. Everyone says "Oh, you just have to tell them X," or "Oh, if you do Y, they'll get it." Nope.
> 
> 3) In general, we figured out that we were talking far too much. Talking so much was simply overwhelming to him, especially when he was getting overwhelmed with sensory and emotional input and on the verge of flpping out. We had to pick one message and shorten it drastically to get it through. In the heat of the moment, explaining and justifying and explaining made things worse, and prevented the important message from getting through. ("You must stay away from the swings!" worked better than "Oh, honey, if you walk so close to teh swings the girl who is swinging will kick you in the head and that will hurt and you will be sad and she will be sad that she hurt you so you can't play so close to the swings when a person is swinging, please."
> 
> 4) Playful parenting techniques infuriated him. If he was having a serious or difficult moment, trying to distract him with games or jolly him out of it wtih sillyness was percieved, I think, as insulting and condescending. BOTH my kids hated just about all Playful Parenting tactics, and made this very clear. "NO LAUGHING AT ME MAMA!"
> 
> 5) Too many choices were almost as bad as too many words. Yes, we wanted to respect his wishes and give him as much autonomy as was age appropriate. However, overwhelming him with options when he was already feeling overwhelmed with incoming sensations was really upsetting to him.
> 
> 6) You say your DS doesn't get negation -- it's good you noticed that. My DS could not really process "if - then" statements at that age, so all the advice to "Tell him if he holds your hand then he can walk" and things like that? Totally inappropriate. His brain wasn't holding the idea of order of operations, of "first we do X, then we do Y," or "If we do X, then we can do Y." And repeating messages like that over and over just made him more and more frustrated.
> 
> In general, some kids get really overwhelmed with a certain style of GD. IT's not really developmentally appropriate to expect it of them, and they respond better as toddlers and preschoolers to a more parent-directed interaction, with a simple message and clear expectations/limits. This doesn't mean ditching gentleness. It doesn't mean spanking and timeouts and artificial consequences, or using shaming. And a kid who doesnt' do well with discussion at age 3 or 4 can grow into it -- now that my kids are older, we *do* talk things out, present alternatives, discuss reasoning, and all that. And the kid who melted down if you tried multi-clause statements as a toddler? Is the one willing to discuss and come to agreements now.


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## Natalie12

PM'd you.


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## BrightLights

What stands out for me is that you seem to be very concerned that your ds not be punished or manipulated in anyway, but your dd is being punished by your ds. Even if she is provoking him, it is not his place to discipline his sister.

I'm also not seeing where you've stepped in to guide either of them in appropriate ways to respond. Have you tried stepping in right *before* your son hits to suggest how he can interact with your dd?

He's 3. Talking to him after the fact and telling him what NOT to do will have very little effect. You need to get to him before his breaking point and tell him what TO do.


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## D_McG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Calm*
> 
> Yes. Although, I see perhaps 10% of them.


You only see 10% of what, their interactions? That doesn't make sense.


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## funkymamajoy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Calm*
> 
> Still happening, and he is 3 and she is 9.5. I came here to start a thread only to find I had this one. That was not a great realisation. I certainly didn't ignore the hitting but it seems nothing is helping. I've almost been at the point of telling her to retaliate, because that is what an older brother would probably do and he might learn some caution if not respect that he is out of his league size wise. But I am a pacifist so I'm not really attracted to that option. I have re read this thread closely with fresh eyes to see anything I might have overlooked. The only other option is that there is an issue with my son. I might have to face that fact soon, as he really is emotionally out of control, and I can't go into details here, I feel too flat for how much effort that would take.
> 
> I'm homeschooling and oddly, that helped since we started. Either that or I'm numbing out to it now. I hope not.
> 
> I've taken him into our room onto our swing chair for "feelings" time. This works if he is reacting in anger. I actually cope better with aggressive outbursts as they seem to make sense... we all react poorly with anger and frustration at times, and I am great with tantrums and expressions of anger (hey, I gotta point out my good points when I find 'em!). But it is the threatening with a stick/knife/etc by waving it in front of her that I can't get a handle on. He isn't angry, in fact, he seems to be enjoying it. I refer to it as when he is "playing her like a conductor", because as an observer, that is what it looks like. He waves something in front of her, and she screams and yells and so on at him and he just smiles and keeps doing it.
> 
> I should add here that it has been commented on gently by others that my daughter tends to overreact. This is true, plus she is hypersensitive. They both put their fingers in their ears when other kids seem fine with the noise levels of an event... I think they are both easily overwhelmed. So I must add that into the equation for solutions. I have mentioned that she might like to see if he will actually hit her, or if he is just enjoying the show she puts on. She tried it and said, "I feel like you're going to hit me" and he calmly replied, "I'm not going to hit you." How much truth is in that is yet to be seen but that was just today.
> 
> For several months I can't take him to social occasions with children younger than him, esp babies. He pinches them really hard, sometimes getting a fistful of their back or arm flesh and pulling. I am very vigilant with it, and when I see him making a beeline for a young one, I dash right beside him to guide him through it. We are "that" family that others make a wide berth around, and eventually I have to literally pick him up and drag him out (of the library, park, where ever we are) for the safety and comfort of others. If I see him reach out for a young one, I will gently grab his arm and say, "we wait until invited to touch our friends" (or something else just as lame) and if he has tried to hurt them, I will say to be gentle and he says, "I want to hit the baby. I wanna hurt the baby. Hurt the baby hurt the baby." WTF?? We're a gentle family so this is just freaking me OUT.
> 
> He is smiling when he does it so I don't know how much is for effect and how much he even understands of what he is saying. I remember as a little girl I gave an arm burn by twisting the flesh of a younger girl when no one was looking. I try to remind myself of that time so I don't start thinking I'll find three 6's in his hair one day.
> 
> Anyway, ack. So, aside from aggression from emotions (which I'm ok with, even though his emotions are frequent and intense and he won't take no for an answer) it is this torturing of his sister that doesn't seem to be emotionally based, although I'm sure in some way it is, it looks more like part of his fun. He only actually hurts her by pulling her hair or hitting her if he is angry and part of that I'm trying to teach him to express another way and part of it I am trying to help DD see him as a baby, not as an equal as she does tend to frustrate the living heck out of him and expect more from him than he can achieve right now. My concern is that he screams most of the time, and I feel like pulling him up on the screaming isn't fair but pulling her up on not being fair isn't fair either... if you follow. He isn't like this with his cousin. He is a quiet little mouse when she is around. So he has it in him, he just has no respect for his sister. He won't listen to her at all, and if I pull him up on something, he'll get upset and go over and hit HER for it.
> 
> BTW, he still tortures the dog. He does the same thing to him as he does to his sister by waving something in front of him like he is going to hit him with it and the dog now bites DS regularly.
> 
> Ok, so I'll leave it at that for now. Any takers?


I call this "the age of constant supervision" because you have to be on top of kids who hit all.the.time. Its not fun, I don't get much done, but my kids and my dog feel safe from each other. I don't get into explanations about feelings with a toddler, we just don't hit. Assaulting each other is not allowed. End of story.


----------



## lasciate

I suggest you start actively parenting instead of expecting your daughter and the dog to do it for you.


----------



## Alyantavid

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Calm*
> 
> I wouldn't say we "let" him bully DD, but I would say we don't know how to deal with it - we tell him how we feel, remove him from her (or vice versa) and say we don't like it and I thought we could just wait this out... how long will it take?
> 
> He actually also hits DH and takes his glasses a lot which drives him so nuts he has yelled at him about it before (he has broken his glasses twice in the past), but I'm not so worried about that because it is DH. DS doesn't hit me, and I believe that is because I wasn't his squeaky toy about it. DH and DD react, and therefore DS continues.


You are letting him bully his sister. And it doesn't matter WHO he hits, it's that he hits period.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Calm*
> 
> If you asked those in my life, they would tell you that DD has pushed DS to the brink. To show her, I once videotaped them in secret and played it back to her. She was shocked at how badly she treated him (this was a year or so ago). She threw a huge ball in his face, she took anything he was holding, he would speak to her and she would ignore him and this kind of thing would go on until he exploded. It isn't one sided, and I do wonder why he is so obviously frustrated with her, it has been an extremely tough battle because they both add something to the mix. I don't know how to fix it... DD, being older, is getting better with him. He is great when she is not around. I'm not blaming her, I'm not suggesting she "asks for it" and I'm not going to pull the line that the victim of aggression deserves it or any of that... I'm saying that together it is a really stressful mix. I can't keep them apart for obvious reasons, but holy cow how I'd love to.


Your son is constantly hitting every person in the family, yet you videotaped her taking something him? Why?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *freestylemama*
> 
> *I read the whole thread and find a lot of it really alarming. You need to intervene and set some boundaries. Gentle discipline doesn't mean no discipline.*


Quote:



> Originally Posted by *lasciate*
> 
> I suggest you start actively parenting instead of expecting your daughter and the dog to do it for you.


Yeah to both of those.

You are allowing your son to keep doing this. If he hits, remove him from the situation. I honestly don't care if a kid freaks out if he gets picked up and moved after hitting someone. You are letting him do this. Ignoring the hitting doesn't work. It just makes him find a different victim. None of this is far to your daughter, who deserves to have a home where she isn't hit and then blamed for it. It's not fair to your son either to grow up learning to be a bully. And the dog regularly bites him, wtf?

Take your son to a doctor, you've gotten lots of good ideas here. Just do something instead of allow this to go on.


----------



## stik

There are some behaviors that will go away if parents and others in the child's environment ignore them. This technique (which is known as extinction) doesn't work for hitting because hitting hurts other people. Consequently, a child who hits can easily get the attention of the immediate victim and can always escalate hitting behavior to the point where a parent HAS to take notice.

Maybe it will help, Calm, if you see your son's hitting as an expression of his need for your attention. He doesn't hit you because when he's with you he already has your attention. To get him to stop hitting, you need to provide him with your attention in a caring, freely-giving way before he hits, and show him ways to capture your attention without hitting. If you only observe 10% of your children's interactions, your son may feel he has to struggle to get you to attend to him.

I understand the temptation to cut off attention once the hitting starts, but you can't. Cutting off attention at that point leaves his sister and the dog vulnerable to injury, and puts your son at risk for being injured by one of them. Also, it encourages your son to continue to escalate until he finds the point where you cannot ignore him. And that point is there - he could break his sister's nose, he could provoke the dog into attacking him.

Please take a moment now and imagine how the medical professionals in your community would have to respond to those potential outcomes. Your dog would have to be re-homed or, more likely, put down. A pattern of serious child-on-child injuries could lead to CPS interference in your family life - and it would be needed, because such a pattern of injuries would demonstrate your inability to provide a physically safe home for your children. No one deserves to be hurt and scared in their own home.

You want to prevent all that, and it's going to take a lot of work.


----------



## savithny

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Calm*


In re-reading this post, after reading some quotes pulled by others, I had a few additional thoughts.

Quote:


> I mentioned those authors because they are most like me. I don't believe any philosophy fits any child completely... but I *do believe that every child fits being respected and simply treated like any other person, not like a dog that needs training. I find all training or behaviour focused approaches to be disrespectful of any person, whether adult or child.* I believe all behaviour has an underlying emotion or issue... it's just applying it takes much more time and energy than I have. I wouldn't get anything else done, as DS is so tightly wound.


First: If you do not use behaviorism, then you have to accept that your child is still learning from punishments and rewards -- just not ones applied consciously by you. I think the reason that even anti-rewards and punishments GD theorists talk about "logical consequences" rather than "natural consequences" as behavior motivators is that there are some natural consequences in life that are simply too steep. Right now, you're risking a major one with the dog, for example. When my DH was very young, his family dog gave him a "natural consequence." It bit him on the face. Fortunately, the dog was applying the behavior modification technique that dogs give to puppies -- it was a gentle bite, not a mauling one. However, human faces are more tender than puppy faces, and don't have as much loose skin. DH still has the scars from this experience.

Quote:


> A large part of the problem might be that I am not in the mix enough. They go out on the trampoline for instance and I should be near them to guide them but I'm usually upstairs doing dishes or something. I find I can't do it all, esp with a house with stairs that makes getting to them every single time difficult. Good questions though, and I could probably answer them by listing them:


Quote:


> Yes. Although, I see perhaps 10% of them.


These two things make me wonder if you are unconsciously rewarding both children for their behavior. You say you don't do rewards, but remember that your focused attention is, itself, a reward. And it sounds like your focused attention is something they're not always getting, and want more of. So if your DS hitting people, and your DD overreacting, are things that result in lots of attention from you, you ARE rewarding them.

Or to turn it around, you punish them for getting along by going away.

I turned it around because I'm not saying you should ignore the hitting, at this point. I'm saying that it might help to have more positive interactions with them either together or separately. This will cut into your time to do other things, but well...

Quote:


> I have also asked him why he did it... he doesn't seem to understand the question. So I help him with words (frustrated? Can't get the words you need? etc) I tell him it hurts to be hit, and it isn't ok to hit her. I offer for him to get "feelings out" and 50% of the time he takes me up on it and has a cry or scream on my lap, or just sits and looks at me or tries to play it out - I make hand puppets and they play out the scene. * I find after a session like that, he is great for the rest of the day, so I try to initiate those but it doesn't always happen.*


I've seen parenting writers across the board say that asking "why" is never a good idea in the heat of the moment. And in the heat of the moment, "Why" shouldn't matter, because it has already happened. "Why" is for later.

I almost always found that dissections of "why" and "what happened" and "How did you feel" went much, much better if they did not happen immediately. We took calming down steps first, and only later did we talk about where things went off the rails and play out alternative responses.

Quote:


> Essentially, if I am right there, at all times, things are ok. If I can step in at all issues, things are ok. Perhaps I'm expecting too much to think they can play together alone yet?


You do have a big age difference, one that in many cultures would be playing out very differently. An 8 year old in many place, if she was playing alone with a 3yo sibling, would be granted near-parental authority, first of all, which would change the dynamics. Eight year olds also have very different play styles and ability to play than 3yos. Perhaps if they'd had more time back when he was younger where you were there all the time, stepping in, they might be to a better point by now, but since this dynamic has been going on for so long now, it might not be realistic to expect much different from them.

The thing is, even if you believe that all kids are as deserving of respect as adults are, that respect needs to happen in the context of developmental stages. Kids deserve respect, just like adults -- but two year olds (like he was when you first posted) and three year olds (like he is now) don't have the same social or cognitive abilities that adults do, or even that 7 or 8 year olds do -- and they need guidance to develop those abilities. Social skills do not develop in a vacuum - they are learned, and children have a strong instinct to watch their parents and siblings and friends for cues as to how to treat other people.


----------



## midnightwriter

This is your solution for the next year or so. Seriously. You ARE expecting too much, from both DD and DS. She is too young to be as responsible as you want / need her, and DS is just 3. I have a 9yo and 3yo who get along great most of the time, but I'm seriously lucky. The same 9yo doesn't get along with ehr 6yo brother--they are too different, don't share the same interests, like different things, and well, they are not good playmates. You can't be expecting siblings to be good playmates...unfortunately it might not happen.

Quote:


> Essentially, if I am right there, at all times, things are ok. If I can step in at all issues, things are ok. Perhaps I'm expecting too much to think they can play together alone yet?


----------



## coleslaw

I haven't been able to read all of the threads, but I responded back to your oringal post that we had the saem issue. Our pediatrician did blood work for us with no results. He also recommended a fantastic play therapist, which has helped somewhat, but not completely. ADHD may be an issue. We may be turning to the Feingold Diet because meds are being discussed as a remote possiblility. Have your gone the route of food allerigies or Feingold Diet? Kids can "rage" from foods that dont' work with their body and it doesn't have to just be from red dye. It can be apples or other natural foods.

I truly feel for you as I think I know what you are going through. Your story sounds so much like mine. If you want to talk privately, feel free to inbox me. I'm not on here much these days, but I'll try to come on to see if you have responded. Best of luck.


----------



## nashvillemidwife

It is not her responsibility to defend herself. She is only a child. Your daughter is being terrorized and you are not protecting her.


----------



## phathui5

It sounds like he is not able to be unsupervised at this point. Until his behavior is significantly improved (weeks or months without hurting people), I think that he needs to be within your line of sight. Earshot doesn't count; you need to actually be able to see him.


----------



## D_McG

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *phathui5*
> 
> It sounds like he is not able to be unsupervised at this point. Until his behavior is significantly improved (weeks or months without hurting people), I think that he needs to be within your line of sight. Earshot doesn't count; you need to actually be able to see him.


Agree and since you won't clarify I have to assume that I interpreted correctly that they are unsupervised NINETY percent of the time?

You leave 2 small children unsupervised for the vast majority of the time and wonder why there are behavior issues? Really? Time to really step up here. Letting this go on for years is nothing short of neglect.


----------



## TheGirls

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *phathui5*
> 
> It sounds like he is not able to be unsupervised at this point. Until his behavior is significantly improved (weeks or months without hurting people), I think that he needs to be within your line of sight. Earshot doesn't count; you need to actually be able to see him.


I agree with this 100%! A lot of 3yo's aren't ready to be unsupervised, especially if they have a history of hitting. It's also not a good idea to ever leave a 3yo unsupervised in the company of a dog, especially if you know he's going to torture the dog and the dog is likely to bite him. In fact, I'd keep the child and the dog completely separate for the next several years unless you are able to give them 100% of your attention (ie not just in the same room, but directing their interactions and keeping your hands on them both constantly). If that isn't possible, I'd rehome the dog, for it's own protection.

Every time the 3yo hits his sister, he needs to be removed from the situation. If he puts up a fit, oh well, sometimes 3yos have a fit, that's ok.


----------



## elmh23

You seem really concerned about impeding on his "rights" but I think you're forgetting that by him hitting, he is impeding on your daughter's right not to live in an abusive home. And the dog's right not to live in an abusive home. Your daughter and dog have amazing self restraint in having not beaten the shit out of him yet, but you need to step up and work on getting it to STOP!


----------



## holothuroidea

It is your job as a parent to attend to your children's needs until they are able to meet them on their own.

After food, water and shelter, the most important need a child has is to be SAFE. Your children's safety should have higher priority than their self esteem. As it stands, your daughter is not safe from an abusive sibling and that needs to change. You can work out whatever issues there are after everyone is living in a safe environment.


----------



## coffeegirl

So Calm....You've gotten some good and varied advice here. What do you think? How is the situation now?

It's hard to read something like your OP(s) and not get an update. People get worried and probably too invested. I know I do.







Let us know how things are going if you can...


----------



## nashvillemidwife

I grew up in a family like this. I got the hell out as soon as possible and am not on good terms with my mother and brother and never plan to be. Your son has a behavior problem that you are enabling by allowing him to bully and terrorize your little girl. *She is only a child*. Now may be the only time you have to step up to the plate and be a parent to her before you cause her irrevocable emotional damage, if it's not too late already.


----------



## zebra15

My case is similar to nmw. My sis, 6 yrs younger managed to control the house and terrorize me. Parents took her side, every frigging time and I was told 'shes younger, be patient, etc'. Ya well when it got to be I was 16 and she was 10 that didn't fly any more ya know?

I now live 2k miles away and avoid the family like the plaque.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nashvillemidwife*
> 
> I grew up in a family like this. I got the hell out as soon as possible and am not on good terms with my mother and brother and never plan to be. Your son has a behavior problem that you are enabling by allowing him to bully and terrorize your little girl. *She is only a child*. Now may be the only time you have to step up to the plate and be a parent to her before you cause her irrevocable emotional damage, if it's not too late already.


----------



## coffeegirl

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Calm*
> 
> *I must admit, one of my hesitations with seeing a professional is that they will be mainstream and give me unhelpful advice. *I asked my doctor for a referral to get some tests as I wondered about aspergers or allergy or something, but she said, "Oh you don't need that. He's fine. He just needs some behaviour management, like time out and so on." I mean, she judged him in five minutes as being "fine", and then suggested time out? That is typical, and I'm growing weary of it. I'm sick of the pendulum of feeling that I'm not doing enough for him yet then being told I'm over-analysing and jumping to the worst conclusion. I can't win.
> 
> I want some radical who is like Alfie Kohn or Lawrence Cohen who see children as whole humans, not as dogs that need training.
> 
> Edited to put pics of them in... just to make them more than words on a page, and cos I think they're so gorgeous, a facebook album.


They are beautiful. Which makes us care even more, since they aren't just words on a page. So I wish you would update! 

One thing, too, that I forgot to say before...your bolded comment, above? How can you know that a professional's advice will be unhelpful before you even know who you'll be seeing, or before you have even met said professional? You know what I mean? I've had many a counselor/therapist in my life....many have been useless; a few have been God-sends. All of the comments you've made about yourself give me the impression that you are, or that you see yourself, as a very open-minded individual. If that is the case, then why the dogmatic thinking about any possible "mainstream" therapist? It's your kids; it really might be worth it if your situation is in or is nearing the crisis stage that your words seem to indicate it is. Please, get any kind of help you can. Exhaust the resources, mama.


----------



## ~Boudicca~

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coffeegirl*
> 
> They are beautiful. Which makes us care even more, since they aren't just words on a page. So I wish you would update!
> 
> One thing, too, that I forgot to say before...your bolded comment, above? How can you know that a professional's advice will be unhelpful before you even know who you'll be seeing, or before you have even met said professional? You know what I mean? I've had many a counselor/therapist in my life....many have been useless; a few have been God-sends. All of the comments you've made about yourself give me the impression that you are, or that you see yourself, as a very open-minded individual. If that is the case, then why the dogmatic thinking about any possible "mainstream" therapist? It's your kids; it really might be worth it if your situation is in or is nearing the crisis stage that your words seem to indicate it is. Please, get any kind of help you can. Exhaust the resources, mama.


ITA with the above. You don't know until you try. I have had to deal with some mainstream therapists, and eventually I ran screaming from one (she was uber-feminist and didn't agree with breastfeeding, was constantly throwing the word "socialization" around regarding my homeschooled kid, and couldn't understand why I had a problem with letting my sick 15 month-old CIO). I found a wonderful psychologist through FYT who was ok with the weird crunchy stuff we do helped me work through years of childhood trauma. MY SPD kid also sees an OT and speech therapist, who have also been very non-judgmental which is a freaking miracle for the super-mainstream area I live in. It seems as though you are very worried about being persecuted and balk at the idea of a professional that may see things differently from their POV. Buck up and seek the help your family needs mama, it sounds like there is an awful lot of repair that needs to be done.


----------



## hakeber

Hi Calm,

When your son hits, you need to remove him and hold him, bottom line.

That being said it would be a good idea to start teaching your 8 yo other coping mechanisms. She is reaching an age where socially she will be meeting a lot of abusive behavior amongst other girls and teaching her how to protect herself without running away is a good idea.

If growling worked for the dog, perhaps your DD could growl as a warning to your son...make a seriously scary face like she means business. Then she should take his hand firmly and say "You may NOT hit me." Then hold his hand while calling for your help.

She needs some training in NVC methods of protecting herself.

You're one of my favorite posters, and I know you are doing a great job raising your kids, but you're right. something is amiss that a 3 yo is ruling the roost. His needs are important, but they don't supercede everyone else.

HTH


----------



## BubbleMa

There is a difference between punishment and discipline. You can discipline your children without punishing them. It sounds like neither is happening in your house, and your children are suffering the consequences. ALL children need boundaries and rules. Some need more than others, but they all need the basics. You can't really believe that your children will just know what's right and wrong, can you? Children need guidance from their parents. Ignoring him is the absolute wrong thing to do. The message you're sending your children is that abuse is okay...which is the opposite of what you believe, right? This passive/pacifist stance is obviously not working. At the moment, your DD thinks if someone hits her she has no recourse, she just has to put up with it. Which doesn't bode well for her in the future. And your DS has no empathy for others, and thinks it's okay to hit people (and animals) for the heck of it. Which also doesn't bode well for him in the future. If I was in your situation I think I would let DD hit DS back. She needs to learn that it's okay to protect herself against an attacker, and he needs to learn what it feels like to be hit because right now he has no clue that it hurts.


----------



## coffeegirl

I don't know....allowing the 9 year old hit the toddler back seems like retaliation and revenge, and I think of the old "two wrongs don't make a right" saying, you know? Plus, she could seriously hurt him. Especially if she's super pissed off, which I think I would be if I were in her shoes. Of course, defending herself is a whole 'nother thing. IF she's being attacked, she needs to defend herself, physically or however. Especially if her parents aren't protecting her the way that they should be. She shouldn't have to be hiding from her little brother. With all due respect, that's a ridiculous and sad situation.


----------



## BubbleMa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coffeegirl*


I agree. Letting her hit him back certainly isn't ideal, but right now she needs to protect herself against him. Ideally, he would never have been allowed to terrorize her for over a year.


----------



## holothuroidea

"Allowing" the 9 year old to hit the toddler doesn't make any sense. If the toddler is attacking her, she certainly has the right to use the MINIMUM force necessary to remove herself from the situation. There is absolutely NO REASON to hit someone who is half your size, and that should never be encouraged. If she did end up hitting him I don't think I'd really fault her for it. We all loose our temper, but it's not right to condone that kind of thing.

There are plenty of ways for her to defend herself that don't involve physical retaliation. I agree with hakeber, if he hits he needs to be removed and held until he is no longer a danger to anyone. If mom is not around when this happens, 9 year old should be taught to say "You may not hit me," then go to the nearest parent for help. If it happens frequently, the toddler should not be able to play with anyone unsupervised until you are ready to re-evaluate his ability to control himself.


----------



## Calm

Things are good. We seem to have figured a few things out. I'd love to tell you about it but I will have to deal with how I feel about some of the "advice" here first. It's amazing what people think is helpful on this board. Frankly, some of you are in serious need of a check in on your judgments and approach.

I post when I have PMS, I noticed the correlation... PMS makes me make mountains out of molehills - and I guess makes some of you do the same. I use strong language like "terrorise" and that is because I've usually just walked away from a situation that was difficult. Don't tell me you haven't been there. What are you smoking that allows you to believe it is helpful to tell a mother who is obviously pretty concerned already and a very gentle parent to "start parenting instead of letting the dog do it", or suggesting she is neglectful? Don't pretend a mother doesn't know a trigger word when she uses it. (D McG what a surprise one of them was you. Darn, and I thought you liked me.) I don't make it to every argument in time, but they are in my home, my backyard, and held in my arms when they need me because I homeschool. I carried a baby who was 25 pounds by 5 months in a sling, 24 hours a day. I breastfed for over 3 years. I have shared a bedroom with a child for the last 9 years of my life. At a forum like this one in particular you know the sacrifices make to lead this life, to give what we deem is the best to our kids, we give more than most or it certainly feels that way as I see my friends take short cuts I decided I could go without... I really wonder what goes on in some people's heads to suggest "you're just not doing ENOUGH" before being *certain* of a person's story.

Talk about a mountain of assumptions. I never said I ignored anything except when he hit me. I said I was considering the option of getting my daughter to ignore it... after over a year of not doing so, capiche? The following are all my posts in order. I was clearly asking for help as to *how to empower my daughter.* So why are you assuming I ignored it? Not only did I never state I was ignoring anything, I clearly stated I didn't ignore it, and outlined some things I *had* been doing - why do posters on this board assume that what a person writes is the sum total of all that is going on or all that they do? (*bolded* so a complete re read isn't necessary, *enlarged* when something was not obvious enough for some readers):

Quote:


> My daughter is 8 and my son is 2. As soon as she gets out of bed until she goes to bed at night, my son gets all riled up and randomly hits her, sometimes with objects, and sometimes screams right in her face. She usually does nothing to encourage or incite this, sometimes she is just sitting there trying to wake up and he starts on her. However, sometimes she is difficult with him, not sharing or whatnot but he has it good, overall.
> 
> She is starting to hide, which means I get even less time with her, which was already stretched since his birth as he is high needs.
> 
> So far, my advice has been not to retaliate, which is easy for her as she has always been passive, she doesn't even yell with much conviction. They are like chalk and cheese.
> 
> I'm wondering if I shouldn't have said not to retaliate now, as she has absolutely no recourse, and sometimes it just isn't fair on her to walk away, or not possible. We are all going insane with this.
> 
> He started hitting me about a year ago, but I ignored it, and it ended up he only hit me a couple of times and then gave up. I advised her to do the same, and it worked. He didn't hit her for a long time (he did yell in her face still, though, as my mother lives with us and has a real problem with his screaming/yelling and makes a big deal of it - this, I believe, has caused it to remain long past it's due date). But now, his hits are stronger (he is older) and *my daughter doesn't ignore them*, even though I think this might cause them to die out - my friend described it well by saying we become their "squeaky toy", so when we react, this is very satisfying to the average toddler.
> 
> How can we help DD protect herself, yet not infringe on DS's rights, yet not have her keep having to leave the room, hide, or some other unfair solution?


My second post...

Quote:


> DD does say gentle, in fact, DS says it - about his drumming (which is very LOUD) and often after he hits someone, so I think he gets the concept, I just don't get why he does it. It's the only recourse she has is to tell him how she feels and ask him to stop. Much of the time I can tell it is like an accident, he gets ahead of himself. When DD starts to cry, he ALWAYS (which is incredible) says sorry and gives her a kiss and usually doesn't hit her again for the day or for a long time. She always responds (even if she is in tears) with "thank you" or "that's ok" - she is pretty amazing, in fact, both of them are really. I never told him to say sorry or any of that, he just learned it by watching us. But I'd like to avoid that in the first place, as it can go on and on sometimes.
> 
> If I pick him up he freaks, so that will be a kind of punishment. He fights being picked up unless he instigates it. He was carried in some type of sling his whole life so I think it created this earlier independence, at least, that is what other cultures show will happen and it seemed to happen to us.
> 
> What happens is someone ends up freaking out on him because *he just won't listen*. Yelling at him or moving him out of the way a little too roughly. I wouldn't say we "let" him bully DD, but I would say we don't know how to deal with it - *we tell him how we feel, remove him from her (or vice versa) and say we don't like it* and I thought we could just wait this out... how long will it take?
> 
> He actually also hits DH and takes his glasses a lot which drives him so nuts he has yelled at him about it before (he has broken his glasses twice in the past), but I'm not so worried about that because it is DH. DS doesn't hit me, and I believe that is because I wasn't his squeaky toy about it. DH and DD react, and therefore DS continues.
> 
> *I've taught DS the word "frustrated"*, in hopes he'll use it as DD seems to frustrate him a lot, and so does life in general.
> 
> Hence why I'd love for DD to try ignoring it, as reacting to this and telling him not to etc has only caused it to get chronic. But then, now he is older, sitting there while he hits you is not such an easy feat... so I'm not sure it is an option. Feeling stuck. Kind of like when a child wants to run onto the road, at his age it is best to just not go near a road because they simply don't understand "don't go onto the road, it is dangerous". But I can't keep him away from DD like the road, kwim? He doesn't have the understanding of what he is doing and I don't have the option to "wait it out" because DD is suffering.
> 
> Edited to add: interestingly, he no longer hits the dog, and hasn't for six months or so. He kept hitting the dog a year ago until I told everyone to "back off and let the two of them work it out!" and somehow DS stopped hitting him... I personally think it is because WE stopped feeding into it with reaction. The dog didn't change in any way, only our reactions did.


and the third post:

Quote:



> Still happening, and he is 3 and she is 9.5. I came here to start a thread only to find I had this one. That was not a great realisation. *I certainly didn't ignore the hitting but it seems nothing is helping.* I've almost been at the point of telling her to retaliate, because that is what an older brother would probably do and he might learn some caution if not respect that he is out of his league size wise. But I am a pacifist so I'm not really attracted to that option. I have re read this thread closely with fresh eyes to see anything I might have overlooked. The only other option is that there is an issue with my son. I might have to face that fact soon, as he really is emotionally out of control, and I can't go into details here, I feel too flat for how much effort that would take.
> 
> I'm homeschooling and oddly, that helped since we started. Either that or I'm numbing out to it now. I hope not.
> 
> *I've taken him into our room onto our swing chair for "feelings" time. This works if he is reacting in anger.* I actually cope better with aggressive outbursts as they seem to make sense... we all react poorly with anger and frustration at times, and *I am great with tantrums and expressions of anger* (hey, I gotta point out my good points when I find 'em!). But it is the threatening with a stick/knife/etc by waving it in front of her that I can't get a handle on. He isn't angry, in fact, he seems to be enjoying it. I refer to it as when he is "playing her like a conductor", because as an observer, that is what it looks like. He waves something in front of her, and she screams and yells and so on at him and he just smiles and keeps doing it.
> 
> I should add here that it has been commented on gently by others that my daughter tends to overreact. This is true, plus she is hypersensitive. They both put their fingers in their ears when other kids seem fine with the noise levels of an event... I think they are both easily overwhelmed. So I must add that into the equation for solutions. I have mentioned that she might like to see if he will actually hit her, or if he is just enjoying the show she puts on. She tried it and said, "I feel like you're going to hit me" and he calmly replied, "I'm not going to hit you." How much truth is in that is yet to be seen but that was just today.
> 
> For several months I can't take him to social occasions with children younger than him, esp babies. He pinches them really hard, sometimes getting a fistful of their back or arm flesh and pulling. I am very vigilant with it, and when I see him making a beeline for a young one, I dash right beside him to guide him through it. We are "that" family that others make a wide berth around, and eventually I have to literally pick him up and drag him out (of the library, park, where ever we are) for the safety and comfort of others. If I see him reach out for a young one, I will gently grab his arm and say, "we wait until invited to touch our friends" (or something else just as lame) and if he has tried to hurt them, I will say to be gentle and he says, "I want to hit the baby. I wanna hurt the baby. Hurt the baby hurt the baby." WTF?? We're a gentle family so this is just freaking me OUT.
> 
> He is smiling when he does it so I don't know how much is for effect and how much he even understands of what he is saying. I remember as a little girl I gave an arm burn by twisting the flesh of a younger girl when no one was looking. I try to remind myself of that time so I don't start thinking I'll find three 6's in his hair one day.
> 
> Anyway, ack. So, aside from aggression from emotions (which I'm ok with, even though his emotions are frequent and intense and he won't take no for an answer) it is this torturing of his sister that doesn't seem to be emotionally based, although I'm sure in some way it is, it looks more like part of his fun. He only actually hurts her by pulling her hair or hitting her if he is angry and part of that I'm trying to teach him to express another way and part of it I am trying to help DD see him as a baby, not as an equal as she does tend to frustrate the living heck out of him and expect more from him than he can achieve right now. My concern is that he screams most of the time, and I feel like pulling him up on the screaming isn't fair but pulling her up on not being fair isn't fair either... if you follow. He isn't like this with his cousin. He is a quiet little mouse when she is around. So he has it in him, he just has no respect for his sister. He won't listen to her at all, and if I pull him up on something, he'll get upset and go over and hit HER for it.
> 
> BTW, he still tortures the dog. He does the same thing to him as he does to his sister by waving something in front of him like he is going to hit him with it and the dog now bites DS regularly.


the fourth post:

Quote:



> Sorry, I should have mentioned, initially letting the dog and DS work it out worked, as the dog growled and snarled and DS stopped, but largely because we stopped reacting... I thought. But whatever the reason, it didn't last, *but we didn't let the dog bite DS and do nothing, or DS annoy the dog and do nothing*. It's been a long time since that technique (I started this thread over a year ago).
> 
> *We are on it, right away.* But it is constant at times and luckily the dog lives downstairs with my mother and brother so they are mostly apart. And mostly it was that threatening by waving something in his face, and not actual hitting. It's like this kid just doesn't learn and I keep trying to tell myself it is just that my daughter was so easy that he seems so, well, slow to learn and difficult, but I'm not so sure now.
> 
> NNicole when you said this: Other than freaking out, what real choice does she have?
> 
> That is what I'm asking. Exactly what I'm asking. When I started this thread a year ago, things were different, but *we've tried everything now and nothing is stopping it.* I'm looking for creative solutions as she seems to have no options, and like I said, I even considered telling her to retaliate... even though I don't think she really could, she is very gentle.
> 
> The worst part of this I have written about SO many times on MDC but my threads went largely unanswered... It has been hard to say the least but the worst part is his screaming. He screams over everything. If you asked those in my life, they would tell you that DD has pushed DS to the brink. To show her, I once videotaped them in secret and played it back to her. She was shocked at how badly she treated him (this was a year or so ago). She threw a huge ball in his face, she took anything he was holding, he would speak to her and she would ignore him and this kind of thing would go on until he exploded. It isn't one sided, and I do wonder why he is so obviously frustrated with her, it has been an extremely tough battle because they both add something to the mix. I don't know how to fix it... DD, being older, is getting better with him. He is great when she is not around. I'm not blaming her, I'm not suggesting she "asks for it" and I'm not going to pull the line that the victim of aggression deserves it or any of that... I'm saying that together it is a really stressful mix. I can't keep them apart for obvious reasons, but holy cow how I'd love to.
> 
> *I did one month of Aware Parenting counselling over this*, which was about helping him release his big emotions etc but it didn't help. The main reason is I find it difficult to help him release at every outburst, as they are so frequent and he just tells me to "go away, I'm going to get lost" and walks away like the whole world is against him.
> 
> I'm not sure what my question is anymore... but I'm fairly convinced I will be seeing an OT about this. I've had secret concerns over him since he was a baby. My mother is very anti-diagnosis, so I took it as a huge sign when she said, "that screaming is not normal, you need to sort this out". But what she means is, I need to start punishing/hitting/disciplining him as she puts down his whole thing to my parenting (and yay, hasn't THAT helped). Yet, I parented DD the same non-punitive way and she is not a lunatic. I don't believe this needs punishing, I think it needs something else. I don't believe in punishment.


my next post:

Quote:


> I must admit, one of my hesitations with seeing a professional is that they will be mainstream and give me unhelpful advice. * I asked my doctor for a referral to get some tests as I wondered about aspergers or allergy or something*, but she said, "Oh you don't need that. He's fine. He just needs some behaviour management, like time out and so on." I mean, she judged him in five minutes as being "fine", and then suggested time out? That is typical, and I'm growing weary of it. I'm sick of the pendulum of feeling that I'm not doing enough for him yet then being told I'm over-analysing and jumping to the worst conclusion. I can't win.
> 
> I want some radical who is like Alfie Kohn or Lawrence Cohen who see children as whole humans, not as dogs that need training.


next...

Quote:


> Thanks to both of you.
> 
> I wouldn't say I have a philosophy or ideals or anything. I parent as though they are people, I respect them and I treat them as I would anyone I care about. When I've tried formulas, it doesn't work. I found that there are certain authors or philosophies I resonate with, but it isn't about what suits my children, it is about what makes sense to me. I can't abide punishment because it makes no sense. I don't reward because it makes no sense. I don't do these things to my husband or my mother, and I couldn't do them to my children. I mentioned those authors because they are most like me. I don't believe any philosophy fits any child completely... but I do believe that every child fits being respected and simply treated like any other person, not like a dog that needs training. I find all training or behaviour focused approaches to be disrespectful of any person, whether adult or child. I believe all behaviour has an underlying emotion or issue... it's just applying it takes much more time and energy than I have. I wouldn't get anything else done, as DS is so tightly wound.
> 
> A large part of the problem might be that I am not in the mix enough. They go out on the trampoline for instance and I should be near them to guide them but I'm usually upstairs doing dishes or something. I find I can't do it all, esp *with a house with stairs that makes getting to them every single time difficult (added to clarify, my stairs are on the OUTSIDE of the house, if I am inside, I am "upstairs" I cannot chain them inside, nor would I want to).* Good questions though, and I could probably answer them by listing them:
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a LOT of questions - how is their sleep
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent. My son still cosleeps but he is solid all night. My daughter has her own room and has mentioned waking in the middle of the night recently but then I woke her early for a couple of days and reset her body clock, and she slept through again.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> how is their diet
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Excellent. They eat a ton of raw food. They prefer it. They eat some cooked food, but they just want simple stuff. My son only finished bfing a few months ago. If I cook, they are less likely to eat. Recently DS got worse for two days (hence coming back to this thread!) and I couldn't figure the cause. I then noticed a juice I bought had preservatives in it and he had just drunk the whole lot over a period of 24 hours. I am very careful about that kind of thing but I messed up that time because it was fresh squeezed orange juice with pulp so I was fooled. Today he was better. As their diet is so good, I believe small things like that are more easily noticed in them.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> how much time do they get outside to be kind of "wild" and get all the energy out?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Outside every day, but I'm not sure anywhere is appropriate for the kind of screaming my son does. The neighbours have actually yelled over the fence several times. One of them asked me if he was autistic.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Do they have time apart?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When my daughter was at school, yes. Not so much anymore. I would like my son to have his own "space", like DD does. I think it is time for him to have a place to retreat to. We don't have a third room spare, but I am considering some kind of corner for him, that will be only his. Actually, that is an idea I got out of a book, so I guess now and again I take some ideas like that. My days with him while DD was at school were easier.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Does your daughter regularly get to go somewhere and be with other kids (classes, clubs, anything)?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We are part of a couple of homeschooling groups. Twice a week we are social. It is smoothing out now, it took a while to get a social situation working. I think she needs to have friends over more often.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you keep them busy?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No. I have to interrupt their play to get them to do anything with me.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have things set up for them to do at the same time, but not necessarily together?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As a homeschooler, I find this a tough challenge. I need more one on one time with DD but DS is difficult to occupy. Once he can use a computer mouse it will be easier but at the moment, I feel like I get a whole lot of nothing achieved most days.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> When she takes things from him, do you call her on it calmly and make her return it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *Yes. Although, I see perhaps 10% of them. - (bolded and enlarged only to clarify that my kids do everything together, and I do not sit and stare at them all day. I assume I only see some of the good and bad exchanges between them. I catch my daughter take something from my son, or my son snatch from her, and I think well, if I didn't just look over there then, I would have missed that because neither of them said a thing. So yes, I see perhaps 10% of the times something is taken from one of them by the other.)*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> When he hits his sister, what do you do?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *I hold DD and sympathise and if she is upset, I offer to fix it in some way. I have done various things like ask DS to fix it,* and he will then kiss her, say sorry or get her a bandaid or just say no and walk away. I don't force that, *I just ask if he would like to make amends*. I have also asked him why he did it... he doesn't seem to understand the question. So *I help him with words* (frustrated? Can't get the words you need? etc) *I tell him it hurts to be hit, and it isn't ok to hit her. I offer for him to get "feelings out"* and 50% of the time he takes me up on it and has a cry or scream on my lap, or just sits and looks at me or tries to play it out - *I make hand puppets and they play out the scene. I find after a session like that, he is great for the rest of the day*, so I try to initiate those but it doesn't always happen.
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you given her words to use instead of just a big screaming reaction?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, but he doesn't listen. This whole defiance thing I was warned about is really strong in this boy. She needs to act. Your advice about her walking away is probably the best thing for her as listening is not his strong suit. Or, perhaps he listens but he does not like to do anything she asks, in fact, if she says "don't touch your nose", he touches his nose. He really does NOT get negation. Come to think of it, I should help her formulate her sentences in the positive the way I learned to, and avoid the word "don't", because he only hears the rest of the sentence ("don't put toilet rolls in the toilet" to him means "put ALL the toilet rolls into the toilet", for instance). He actually used to come to me really happy and say, "MAMA! I put the toilet rolls in the toilet!" as though I asked him to... he seemed so confused and devastated when I wasn't happy and told him "Please, DON'T put the toilet rolls in the toilet, it is making mama sad." but he would do it anyway (if he got a hold of one, as we ended up hiding them)... it is mind boggling, and I struggled to find a way to phrase it. *I ended up saying, "leave the toilet rolls on the holder". He hasn't done it since. *
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you told her to say NO, you can not hit me and walk away?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As a matter of fact I really stressed this point tonight at dinner. I told her that she can't "forget" anymore, as *she is being tormented and she can't just accept that (to be clear I meant she shouldn't accept that)*. If she decides it isn't a big deal, whatever he is doing, then fine... but if *she finds what he is doing to be stressful, she needs to tell him and then walk away.* I really think if she can remember to do that he won't risk pushing her away like he does now. *I made it a big point, in an effort to not only restate my support for her but to encourage her to use her personal power. *
> 
> Essentially, if I am right there, at all times, things are ok. If I can step in at all issues, things are ok. Perhaps I'm expecting too much to think they can play together alone yet?
> 
> Natalie, may I ask what the diagnosis was? What is the treatment, or steps, that you do now?
Click to expand...

Ok, I hope that helps make it clearer that "nothing" is far from what we have been doing. People have confused what we have been doing with what I was considering doing. I asked if it would be a good idea to get her to ignore some of these things in case it was her reaction that was causing it. Not really that ridiculous an idea considering it worked for me, and even for her, only it didn't last for her, and as I stated, she didn't continue to ignore it when the behaviour started up again.

So where we are now is he is great with other kids, even babies. We have been much more social and he seems to find other kids less like museum exhibits. My son seems to be the helpful, quiet one during social gatherings, to the point where telling my mother about it recently I had tears in my eyes. How far we've come. I was waiting for the other shoe to drop the first few times but it has been a consistent new behaviour in him.

Regarding his behaviour with my daughter, the "balking" behaviour I had forgotten about until I just quoted my old posts on this one. So I guess they've gone. He rarely lashes out at her and when he does, it is an emotional reaction (much more recognisable for me, or "normal" you could say). Not perfect, but so much better. Where we are with dealing with hitting, screaming or being overbearing is that she says, "use your words or I won't play with you." or "if you hit, I won't play with you, use your words." I am helping him express his needs/wants and his frustration levels stay low. DD mimics my approach, I hear her sometimes, I heard her this morning when they were playing with some broken headphones say (when he was screaming at her), "Let me speak and I'll help you... you have one side and I have one side... are you yelling because you want both? (YES!!) Well, that's not fair, we share, you have one and I have one, why do you want both?" and he said, "put them together, like this!" and he tried to fix them, then she said oh, ok, and helped him and when they were fixed, they took turns wearing them. With the communication flowing better, he is able to say what he wants, where previously he was just screaming and freaking out because he couldn't make his wants known and it just looked like he was unreasonable. He often IS unreasonable, but at least we can often try as a team to explain why something is unreasonable and he'll be happy knowing why.

Regardless of it becoming much easier and no doubt will continue to as he gets older, I still have him booked into OT for September. After some preliminary tests, both he and DD have sensory issues, but we won't know for sure until some further assessments before September therapies. I'm not a "labelling" person, but I can say that the things I'm learning about their brains are helping us all.

I thank you all for your opinions, although I won't pretend I'm not disappointed in some of them. I put my vulnerabilities and family problems out in the open the way I did here because *I want to be better, want to do better*. Keep all these complex facets in mind next time, because you made an awful lot out of what is essentially happening in every other home I know in real life with toddlers, only they don't care about it as much as I do - all siblings I know have fights and in almost every case, one is hitting the other. The most I see happen is "don't hit" or some kind of punishment (including hitting) or humiliation and I simply want more for my kids than that - esp considering that, aside from punishment to the hitter, I had tried all of it and the hitting didn't stop. What is working is actually figuring out why the child is frustrated to begin with, because the hitting is just a symptom.


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## coffeegirl

Calm....I'm glad that things are better, but seriously...how are we supposed to know when you are posting hyperbole because you have PMS? When I see someone say that their daughter is ""terrorized" then I tend to come away from that believing that, you know, the child is terrorized. I can't speak to everyone here but I was responding to your words alone and then, later, to your lack of response. (although I'm not dissing you for that...you certainly don't have a responsibility to update on MDC regularly, even though I wanted you to. )

When you say that your son freaks out when you try to pick him up and remove him from these situations, therefore you consider that a punishment....and then you say you don't believe in punishment so you can't do it....Well, I'm gonna take from that exactly what you said. We can't read you mind, mama. We can only read your words.

ETA: I understand that you were looking for ways to empower your daughter. Which I don't think is bad. But a lot of people here (myself included) think that you protecting your daughter from this situation would be more beneficial and more kind and far more fair than focusing on teaching her how to deal with it. Does that make sense? She's only 9 years old.


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## Calm

Yes. I can see by the more recent page of responses that either I wasn't clear, or posters have bolstered each others assumptions (which I've seen happen before). So I double checked my posts and I feel I was clear that I wasn't ignoring him hitting or yelling at her. Protecting is part of it, but as you can imagine, that isn't very easy because the only real protection is prevention and I couldn't prevent it unless I prevented them playing together.

If someone is crying, the fact that they probably wouldn't be if it wasn't for PMS doesn't make it any less real for her. I meant what I wrote, I was overwhelmed. I made some mistakes here, mistakes you can't make in writing but you can in real life. I have learned from those mistakes.


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## coffeegirl

If this conversation had happened IRL....where we could all be face-to-face and see each other's emotions, then I imagine that it would have gone differently. Same with all online conversations. I am not discounting the reality of the emotions of PMS; I just think it's kind of odd to have that be part of this discussion, now. I am sorry you were feeling overwhelmed.

Are you still thinking that the only way to prevent the hitting is to stop the kids from playing together?


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## TheGirls

The title of this thread is "Toddler hitting/abusing older sister". When you say he is abusing her, then say you leave them alone to work it out themselves 90% of the time, you really can't expect people to be ok with that. If he's actually abusing her, then they need to not be left alone together, ever, not even for a minute while you pee. Yes, I know AP is hard, but you don't leave a 9yo alone with someone who you know is abusing her. Ever.

If what you meant by "abuse" was "being an annoying twit of a little brother" then ok, a 9yo can be taught to handle that, but I expect that's pretty insulting to people who have suffered real abuse. If that's the level of hyperbole that PMS brings you to, perhaps you shouldn't post while PMSing, because you had a LOT of people really worried when you used "abuse" and "terrorize". I know that I do not, personally, take allegations of abuse lightly, and the fact that you posted that a year later, he's still abusing her had my stomach in knots.

Yes, I've occasionally gotten overwhelmed and used hyperbole myself, but I do NOT use the word abuse unless I MEAN it. I had an annoying twit of a little brother who did hit occasionally, but I was not abused, ever.


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## Magella

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Calm*
> 
> Protecting is part of it, but as you can imagine, that isn't very easy because the only real protection is prevention and I couldn't prevent it unless I prevented them playing together.


I disagree that prevention can only be achieved by preventing them from playing together. I think you work on prevention by supervising closely, and intervening when your son shows signs that he's likely to become aggressive. A child who is frequently aggressive is a child who needs *very* close supervision. I know it's hard, I've been through it. But you achieve prevention by committing to close, nearly constant supervision, and by intervening to both physically stop him from hitting and to teach him other ways of expressing himself. True, you can't prevent every single instance. But you can prevent a lot of them.


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## familydaycarmom

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stik*
> .
> 
> In order for this to work, you will need to keep your ds with you all the time. Bring him from room to room with you as you work around the house. You can give him jobs to do to help you, or you can give him a little play space near you. Learning to help can also be very helpful for aggressive toddlers, because it gives them an outlet for their energy and a positive way to get adult attention.


In my experience this is absolutely necessary for awhile.


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## cyclamen

I've been following this thread for awhile... didn't say anything because I wasn't sure if what I had to offer was what you were looking for. But in your recent post, I saw that you are mostly looking for ways to empower your daughter, and I understand why. It is so important for kids to feel empowered and supported. I think... perhaps... as a parent we have to teach our kids how to name their boundaries, and then we help them enforce them. Ultimately, they will meet people in life whose behavior they cannot control. So how do we help them to meet that behavior and protect their sense of self and wellness? I think the suggestion about walking away is a great one.

To that I would add.... can you teach and authorize your daughter to use just as much force is necessary to walk away? Not in retaliation - not hitting back - but can you help her distinguish between force and violence? I do believe they are different things and I also believe that it is very very important for women especially to be comfortable with force because we are bombarded with messages about it being improper for women to use force. And I think that these are two different things. I use force when I pry my toddler's hands out of my hair. That's not violence. I use force when I hold tightly to my toddler's hand to keep her from hitting me and say, "I won't let you hit me.".... that's also not violence. If I were to smack DD's hand just before, or after, she hits me, that would be violence, and it would be retaliation.

I've seen a thoughtful and frustrated 4 year old learn to do the very same thing with my then 18mo, and while I wouldn't leave the two alone, her mom and I can have a brief conversation without having things going from

happily playing together to in under 30 seconds, the 4yo having a meltdown because the 18mo was touching her face and 4yo thought she wasn';t allowed to do anything but say, "Stop touching my face. EEEEEEE!!! STOP TOUCHING MY FAAAAAACCCE!!!!" To me, the 4yo's reaction was totally understandable... she felt completely powerless because an 18mo doesn't understand words the same way an adult or another 4yo would. And they aren't that much different in size. I also believe that the 18mo was just being curious and not malicious at all.

We showed 4yo how to use her hands to guide my daughter's hands away, and I assured her that I wouldn't be angry at her if she needed to go so far as a gentle push to gain enough space to get up and move away. We trusted the 4yo not to go overboard and she didn't. Instead, she seemed very happy to be allowed to move the 18mo's hand away while say,ing "Not my face" or "gentle, gentle" etc. And she did not have any more meltdowns, because the 18mo was understanding her better. Obviously.... we are not throwing them to the wolves. We were both there and ready to step in, and I was and still am working with my DD to teach her about gentle touches, and I don't want her to be pushed... but she understands me best when I communicate more with my hands and demonstrate what I want her to do. So it didn't seem sensible to tell the 4yo, "I know what works but I won't let you do it." We were a little nervous to see if disaster would occur... you know, a full on toddler brawl.... but it did not.... not even close.

They aren't the same age as your kids, the temperments are probably very different, the situation wasn't as severe, and these two are friends and not siblings, so they get lots of breaks from each other!.... but perhaps you can extract some principle from the example that will be useful to you? I am not too good at that, so I won't even try. 

Good luck!


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