# Good Information Needed for the Locker Room Debate



## ericaz (Jun 10, 2003)

My husband's concern with the whole circ issue is whether our son will feel *different* by being intact. Of course, with my current large circle of friends most of the boys are intact but I do realize that not everyone is as crunchy as our gang.
I'm just looking for some feedback on information I could pass on to my guy that might help aid my stance...
TIA


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## thixle (Sep 26, 2007)

If he had red hair, he could be teased, too? If he had glasses/a goofy smile/a club foot, he could be teased?
One of my friends has a comeback about how many quarters he can carry with his foreskin- and everybody laughs and no more is said. My two intact brothers were never teased about it, and are very happy they have it! Honestly, kids are going to get teased about *something*.

If your kid feels "different" he will probably say something to you at the time. I know lots of girls that felt "different" because they had or didn't have boobs... but none of their parents surgically altered them as children. If your son decides he wants it done when he is a legal adult, then, well, he can.


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## llamalluv (Aug 24, 2007)

I have two things to say:

1. Female perspective - I had breasts (not buds BOOBS!) by the time I was 10. We are talking D cup going into junior high, when most of my peers were going, "Gee? Is it time to maybe, kind of, start thinking about getting a training bra?" No one would advocate that I cut off my breasts so as not to look different than all the other girls changing for gym.

2. Male perspective - I have asked my husband if a lot of the guys he went to school with were intact. His response was, "How would I know?!" I then asked, "Well, don't guys look?" *"LOOK AT WHAT?!"*









So, I guess it's not true that all guys compare themselves to all other guys.


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## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

My husband is intact. He tells me that guys NEVER checked each other out in the gym locker room, and if they did, they certainly didn't admit it to anyone. So no, he never once got teased about being intact and is inclined to think that's a myth promoted by those with an agenda toward RIC.


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## thixle (Sep 26, 2007)

Ok, hubby was in the navy right after high school, and said no one would dare look in the shower, in case someone thought they were gay. And it was never an issue in school, gym class, etc. In the navy, they did compare the size of their crap all the time, though







:


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## beansavi (Jun 26, 2005)

Yeah! to all the previous posts. Neither of my sons is circ'd and our midwife told us about 40% of kids are not circ'd now.


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## beansavi (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *llamalluv* 

2. Male perspective - I have asked my husband if a lot of the guys he went to school with were intact. His response was, "How would I know?!" I then asked, "Well, don't guys look?" *"LOOK AT WHAT?!"*









So, I guess it's not true that all guys compare themselves to all other guys.


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## Raelynn (Apr 7, 2007)

My DH said noone looked either - not at school and not when he was in hockey. He said he *thinks* there were guys who were intact on his hockey team but doesn't remember because it was a total non-issue.


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

Dp's response to the locker room argument: "the guy who is caught looking at another guy's penis or says something about another guy's penis would be the one getting teased...or worse..." He said no one ever looked or commented on each other's stuff in school. Since the circ rate is around 50% in most areas, girls will be used to seeing both and probably won't make a big deal out of it.


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## jserral (Apr 8, 2007)

Ya, i definately agree with the making fun of the person looking thing.... I can't remember if it was here or not, but someone said their kid had someone say something when he was at the urinal and his reply was something like, "what are you laughing at, you are the one with half your penis cut off".


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## ColoradoMama (Nov 22, 2001)

When I talked to dh about "the locker room argument," his response was, "Honey, the rule of the locker room is don't look."


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## Equuskia (Dec 16, 2006)

My dh said the same thing. That's you'd have to be crazy to be looking!


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## DklovesMkandJK (Jun 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thixle* 
My two intact brothers were never teased about it, and are very happy they have it! If your son decides he wants it done when he is a legal adult, then, well, he can.











both were born in the circ happy 80s and live in'soggy' PA


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## njeb (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ColoradoMama* 
When I talked to dh about "the locker room argument," his response was, "Honey, the rule of the locker room is don't look."









:
When I first started posting here, my youngest ds was still at home. I asked him if he'd ever been teased for being intact, and he looked at me as if I had two heads!







He also said something similar to the above.


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## MarnieMax (Dec 24, 2004)

My teen sons, who are active in certain sports, and actually shower for gym (something that seems to be going out of style). It has never been discussed, but they are showing no signs of angst because they have a foreskin.

It's only one data point, but an acquaintance (with whom I had never discussed circ), recently had a boy in a large university hospital near here, was changing her 6 - mo old, and he is intact. They are not the least bit crunchy, so maybe neonatal circ is really on the way out around here.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

My 13 yr. old nephew is intact and he is probably one of the few in his class that is. Anyway, he has gym everyday and I asked him about the locker room thing and he said No way does that happen. They all try to change as fast as they can and avoid looking at each other.







BTW he is very happy his parents chose to leave him intact!


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

I'll let you in on a little secret. This article explains your dh's real concerns:

http://www.stopcirc.com/vincent/vuln...ty_of_men.html

(But obviously don't share the article with your dh. It's just for you to read and think about.)


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## Greg B (Mar 18, 2006)

I will second what has already been said. It is not an issue and flawed logic to use this worry to support RIC.

I will add an interesting parallel with school uniforms, for what it is worth. My son's school was considering uniforms. One of the argumants was it would cut down on teasing kids because of their clothes. My son had recently been teased because he was wearing white boxer style underwear, which, by the way was not uncommon. Do we also have to make them all wear the same underwear? Teasing willl happen. No matter what. Make them wear unfiroms, other kids will still find something to tease others about. I bet, even if we could make everyone identical twins, they would still tease each other....

But that in no way justifies harming a child, going against the Hypocratic Oath, and ignoring our responsibilty to put the childs interest first.

Regards


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *earthmama369*
My husband is intact. He tells me that guys NEVER checked each other out in the gym locker room, and if they did, they certainly didn't admit it to anyone. So no, he never once got teased about being intact and is inclined to think that's a myth promoted by those with an agenda toward RIC.









:
My dp is also intact and was never teased in the locker room.


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## myfairbabies (Jun 4, 2006)

I know a man that was born in the early 80s, grew up in Utah, and when asked if he was teased said, "Why would I be teased about it?" with a look on his face that said it never happened. However, the reality is that some boys are teased (I know a woman online that circ'd her son because her dh was "ridiculed" throughout high school for being intact. It always bugged me when she would post on sex topics with NONE of the problems everyone else was talking about). But, I was teased about a lot of things, like having white-blonde hair, but I never wanted to change that, and that would have been easy, painless, and not permanent. I just chocked it up to people being jealous that I had such gorgeous hair and they didn't







If you teach your son to be proud of his body, of what he has that they don't, of what happened to them (and maybe a few good comebacks), then it won't be an issue. Even if he is teased, which isn't likely anyway, it won't mean that he will wish he was circ'd.


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## 4chunut1 (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *earthmama369* 
My husband is intact. He tells me that guys NEVER checked each other out in the gym locker room,

When I was in highs school and college, I think some guys do notice, but do it very casually or surreptitiously... I know I did...not for circ status, but "size."









Quote:


Originally Posted by *earthmama369* 
...and if they did, they certainly didn't admit it to anyone.

You're certainly correct about that also. Anybody doing that would have been accused of being "queer," and certainly not something to help your reputation with the girls...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *earthmama369* 
So no, he never once got teased about being intact and is inclined to think that's a myth promoted by those with an agenda toward RIC.

I was never teased by anyone...and agree that it is mostly a myth...


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## Kimono (Aug 29, 2004)

To the OP:

Even IF feeling different was an issue (which it probably won't be), we live in a very mobile society. I'm not sure where you live, but are you sure your famliy will stay there? Even if you do, you won't know if your son might go to college in a place where most of the male students are intact. Or maybe he will move to a state or a country where most males are intact. Unless he stays in the place where you are currently living, who is to say whether he will be in the minority or the majority when he's older?


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## thixle (Sep 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DklovesMkandJK* 









both were born in the circ happy 80s and live in'soggy' PA

Oh, yeah, one bro born 1976, one 1983, in KY-- one of the top 2 highest circ'ing states in the nation- about 85%


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## mama_ani (Aug 2, 2007)

I'm not sure the circ rate where you are, but what worked with my husband was to point out that in 2005 (the most recent stat I could find) only 9% of the boys in Ontario were circumcised. If anyone was going to look different it would be the cut boys not the intact boys.


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## alaskaberry (Dec 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thixle* 
I know lots of girls that felt "different" because they had or didn't have boobs... but none of their parents surgically altered them as children.

Except, I believe, the Olsen twins. Fat lot of good THAT did them.


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

At one point my sons were teased BECAUSE they were identical twins! We didn't surgically alter one of them to look different, or send on to a different school. Instead, we taught them how to deal with bullies and teasing.

Once you start performing surgery on your baby to make him "fit in", where does it stop?

BTW, my sons are 13 years old, and are appalled at the idea of infant circumcision. They have no idea of their friends are circumcised or not - because they don't look. If anyone DID comment, they would ask the other person why he was looking at my son's penis. One of my boys said "It's not like we wander around with our pants down, saying "Hey, look at my penis!""


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## lizziejackie (Jun 1, 2005)

As some of you know, I posted on/off here about my DH arguing to get our DS circed. The "locker room" argument was DH's biggest "fear" of not circing. DS is 15 mo now and not circed. The arguments ended the night Dave (my DH) AGAIN brought up about how the ONE kid in his class that wasn't circed got teased, tortured and ridiculed all the time. In this argument Dave brought up all of this poor kid's other issues, up to and including: being fat, wearing glasses, having bad acne and being named Stacy. I responded with, "Do you suppose any of those are reasons why he got teased?"

While I feel bad for Stacy and believe kids should never tease, the point here is that kids will find something to tease over. We have to teach them resiliency and confidence in who they are. Teasers stop when they realize the "victim" isn't game.


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## ericaz (Jun 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama_ani* 
I'm not sure the circ rate where you are, but what worked with my husband was to point out that in 2005 (the most recent stat I could find) only 9% of the boys in Ontario were circumcised. If anyone was going to look different it would be the cut boys not the intact boys.

How can I find out what the stats are for where I live? I'm outside of Philly. Incidentally, I asked my neighbor, a pediatrician, how often she sees uncirc'd boys. She said she sees uncirc'd boys about 30% of the time. She also said I'd have to retract my son rather than let him do it on his own when he's a bit older. I hadn't read too much about that issue before chatting with her but it sounded odd to me so I did a little research and know that she was incorrect. It's amazing to me how peds can be so misinformed!

Ok, so about my dh. He's totally not a macho guy and is super supportive of all things AP, natural, etc. I'm actually not entirely sure what his big beef is with this issue, but he has brought up the locker room issue before which is why I posted the question in the first place. Now that I've read some responses it really does seem like a no brainer - duh, of course boys don't look at each other like that, particularly after puberty.

I read the Vincent article and will try to approach it from that stance.







I've also moved the Penn and Teller video up to the top of my Netflix queue.

Here's the interesting thing - dh's dad IS NOT circ'd. I wonder if that's what the big issue really is. I need to talk about it more with him - I've been bombarding him with information rather than asking him specifically why he's opposed.

Of course there's also the religious issue (I'm Jewish and dh's father is as well, although he was raised in an Evangelical Christian house - wild story, lol) but I've seen a lot of the Jews against Circ sites and they've absolutely strengthened my resolve.


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## sadkitty (Jun 24, 2004)

Will anecdotal evidence help? Because my brothers (twins) are almost 15 and play every violent school sport there is; football, lacrosse, wrestling, etc... They also live in a conservative suburb in the midwest and are *intact*. They are totally open to talking about it and have NEVER had anyone give them crap about it. They mentioned to my mom that one other guy on some team was uncut, so it is noticed at times, but not an issue in this day and age. That means it will LESS of an issue when our babes are in locker rooms.

I, on the other hand, was horribly teased in school. What kind of surgery could I have had for being mocked for: being a good reader, having long hair, being chubby, having a brother that died at age 2.5 (seriously, these are things I was actually teased about.) Good thing the cure for all that crap was SELF ESTEEM!

Of course, my kids homeschool, so the locker room thing is fairly moot...


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

This is a huge concern for my DH as well. There were two boys in my class who were circ'd (that anybody knew of anyway) and they were teased and thought of as "freaks". I remember my friends saying things about how gross they are and they would never date them... DH and I went to the same school. Also, a guy in DH's grade was teased so much that he had himself circ'd in 11th grade. (This is what has contributed to his concern and it was a big hurdle for me as well)

I tell DH that more and more boys are intact these days, we will probably home school anyway, kids don't shower together that much anymore & oh well if he gets teased, if it's not about his penis it'll be about something else.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sadkitty* 
having a brother that died at age 2.5 (seriously, these are things I was actually teased about.) Good thing the cure for all that crap was SELF ESTEEM!

Of course, my kids homeschool, so the locker room thing is fairly moot...

My mom was 9 when her mom died and kids actually said "ha-ha, your mom died"


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## dinahx (Sep 17, 2005)

My DH grew up as a semi-circ . . . Talk about different! He was different from everyone! But I asked him if he ever felt sad that he had a foreskin . . . He was like "Why would I be naked around other dudes that weren't in my family?" I really think, if you really think about it, that the locker room thing is a myth . . . When are today's boys ever around a bunch of other boys without their underwear on?

Anyway, I pretty much always will be a beautiful hippie mama who hangs out with other beautiful hippie mamas, so DS will probably be around mostly intact boys until he is 18. And by then, I hope to have instilled in him an understanding and respect for the foreskin that will last him his whole life!

Plus I agree with PPs . . . More and more mamas are making the choice to leave their sons intact now.

I would think a WAY bigger risk than a boy maybe feeling different if he somehow winds up in a Circ club sometime in the future, is the risk of a Mother who is convinced to Circ by her DH definitely feeling sad in Circ debates on Mommy Boards for the rest of her Mommy Board days.









HTH!

ETA: Also, if a boy feels so bad about having a sexy foreskin that he decides to have himself circed, well he always will have that option and it will be fully his choice. I think WAY not enough attention is paid to the very real possibility that a boy will wish he was Intact, and while he can restore, it is not the same as having a true choice to not have had the alteration in the first place, kwim? I know my brother feels straight robbed . . .


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood*
I tell DH that more and more boys are circ'd these days

I think what you meant to say is that more and more boys are left intact these days, right?

Quote:

My mom was 9 when her mom died and kids actually said "ha-ha, your mom died"
I don't even know what to say about kids who would actually *taunt* someone about a parent or sibling dying! What could they be thinking? How could they be so hurtful?









Quote:


Originally Posted by *dinahx*
while he can restore, it is not the same as having a true choice to not have had the alteration in the first place, kwim?

It's not the same at all, since half of the properties that are lost when a boy is circ'd can never be restored.


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## attachedmamaof3 (Dec 2, 2006)

1) It's MUCH more common now that insurance isn't paying for it!

2) Boys DO NOT want to be caught looking at someone else's penis. Much less commenting on it.

I mean, all your son would have to say is "Why are you looking at my penis ANYWAY?" and it'd be all over...

I don't get it!


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sustainer* 
I think what you meant to say is that more and more boys are left intact these days, right?


Oh yeah! Whoops!!


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## Metasequoia (Jun 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kate's Mommy* 
To the OP:

Even IF feeling different was an issue (which it probably won't be), we live in a very mobile society. I'm not sure where you live, but are you sure your famliy will stay there? Even if you do, you won't know if your son might go to college in a place where most of the male students are intact. Or maybe he will move to a state or a country where most males are intact. Unless he stays in the place where you are currently living, who is to say whether he will be in the minority or the majority when he's older?

This is a good point. This site shows the statistics by state, but PA has no data.









Note the west coast statistics, pretty much what I'd expect. The last stat I could find for California was 21% of males ARE circumcised, which means that 79% are INTACT! The midwest is notoriously circ-happy & the South is right behind.
So, if you moved to the west coast, your son would be in the minority if he was circed. The rates are dropping dramatically here in PA, especially since the AAP no longer recommends it.

Congrats on your boy & glad to see that you're leaning towards keeping him intact.


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## ericaz (Jun 10, 2003)

Bump...
The conversation came back up tonight at dinner. In a crowded restaurant. It got a bit heated.

Like I said before, he is and his dad isn't. I hadn't asked him about it specifically until now...how it made him feel and he said it totally weirded him out his whole life that he was different. Of course, his dad isn't the kind of guy who'd be comfortable talking about things like this with his son so they never discussed it and that made it ever weirder.

So, there's that.

And, according to him guys do look at each other in the locker room when they're kids and guys who don't admit it are perhaps threatened by being thought of as homosexual.

We're still at a standstill. The pregnancy is halfway over. I'm not one of those women who'd ever give some sort of ultimatum about this. I've come across posts where women say they'd divorce their husbands if they push circ. While I feel strongly about it I also feel strongly about keeping my marriage intact.

I just don't know where this is going to go and it's making me worry...


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericaz* 
I also feel strongly about keeping my marriage intact.

I just don't know where this is going to go and it's making me worry...

Just imagine the resentment you will feel toward your DH when you have deep regrets about letting him convince you it was okay to slice up your perfect baby. My marriage would be over at that point because I don't think I could live with someone that feels it's okay to chop off a perfectly normal part of their child's sexual organs for no reason..It is not your or your DH's choice to decide for your son what his sex life will be like in the future. It's his choice. . His body...his choice. End of discussion


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

You don't have to divorce your husband or give him an ultimatum.

But you also don't have to allow your son to be circ'd.


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## ericaz (Jun 10, 2003)

I understand where you're coming from, but this is my marriage we're talking about. Obviously we'll get to a point where we have to decide and this is what's worrying me. Who caves? On my side of the coin, it's my boy and I don't want anyone cutting his penis. Period. On his side it's his boy AND HIS PENIS and being as how he has a a penis already and is happy with how his turned out he probably feels as though he has a bit more understanding of this whole issue.

It sort of reminds me of how some of us mothers roll our eyes at men when they make comments about abortions or put their two cents into birthing processes. Perhaps that's a far-reaching analogy but it just occured to me that there is a slight similarity.

Anyhow, back to Fyrestorm's comment. I know I can vouch for my husband that this is something he isn't taking lightly and it's not as overly simple as him feeling like it's ok to chop off someone's body part.

I came here hoping to find some advice on how I might better present my case. I'm truly not all that interested in hearing how some of you would leave your husband if he wouldn't change his stance. Just looking for some sound support here....


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericaz* 
I understand where you're coming from, but this is my marriage we're talking about. Obviously we'll get to a point where we have to decide and this is what's worrying me. Who caves? On my side of the coin, it's my boy and I don't want anyone cutting his penis. Period. On his side it's his boy AND HIS PENIS and being as how he has a a penis already and is happy with how his turned out he probably feels as though he has a bit more understanding of this whole issue.










This is the whole point...it's NOT your penis and it's NOT your DH's penis...it's your SON's penis.

What if your mother didn't think you should have your labia? Do you or your DH believe that it would have been okay to remove it from you? Same thing. If you choose to have labiaplasty as an adult...good for you...but it's ypur body. It should be your choice.


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericaz* 
Bump...
The conversation came back up tonight at dinner. In a crowded restaurant. It got a bit heated.

Like I said before, he is and his dad isn't. I hadn't asked him about it specifically until now...how it made him feel and he said it totally weirded him out his whole life that he was different. Of course, his dad isn't the kind of guy who'd be comfortable talking about things like this with his son so they never discussed it and that made it ever weirder.

I'm confused. So does that mean he hated being circ'd his whole life? If that's the case, then why is he adamant about getting his son circ'd?


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

It's also your child we're talking about.

A person whose penis has been altered is the worst person to decide if the child's penis should be altered. He's biased. He's lost his perspective. He's desperate to believe that he's alright. That nothing bad was done to him. He's desperate to justify it. He has no idea what it would be like to have a foreskin. His information is tragically incomplete. You, on the other hand, can step back and look at the question objectively and learn about intact and circ'd penises. When it comes right down to it the only person who has the right to decide whether or not your son's penis is altered is YOUR SON.

When it comes to abortion and birthing choices it's the woman's body so it's the woman who has the right to make the decision. When it comes to circumcision it's not the mother's body or the father's body that is involved. It is only the child's body that is involved. Neither the mother nor the father has the right to permanently remove a healthy body part.

Please read this http://www.mothering.com/articles/ne...cumcision.html


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## ericaz (Jun 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fyrestorm* 
This is the whole point...it's NOT your penis and it's NOT your DH's penis...it's your SON's penis.

What if your mother didn't think you should have your labia? Do you or your DH believe that it would have been okay to remove it from you? Same thing. If you choose to have labiaplasty as an adult...good for you...but it's ypur body. It should be your choice.

Sounds like you're trying to convince me. I'm convinced. It's my husband who needs convincing.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *papai*
I'm confused. So does that mean he hated being circ'd his whole life? If that's the case, then why is he adamant about getting his son circ'd?

No, not at all. It really bothered him that his did not look like his dad's. So, it's the idea of looking different than other boys in general but even more so, the idea that son and father will not look the same since that exact same issue had such a huge impact on him growing up.


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericaz* 
Sounds like you're trying to convince me. I'm convinced. It's my husband who needs convincing.










I am trying to convince you...you are the one who has to sign the papers...the final decision will be yours...do you let your DH's insecurity allow *you* to hurt your son or not? Do you protect your son or not?


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericaz*
Sounds like you're trying to convince me. I'm convinced. It's my husband who needs convincing.

I think you're missing Fyrestorm's point. We know that you don't want to have your baby circ'd. But at the same time you seem to think it might be okay to back down and let your husband have his way. Fyrestorm's point is that, no matter what you or your husband think about whether or not a foreskin should be cut off, no one has the right to make that decision for your son.


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## ericaz (Jun 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sustainer* 
It's also your child we're talking about.

A person whose penis has been altered is the worst person to decide if the child's penis should be altered. He's biased. He's lost his perspective. He's desperate to believe that he's alright. That nothing bad was done to him. He's desperate to justify it. He has no idea what it would be like to have a foreskin. His information is tragically incomplete. You, on the other hand, can step back and look at the question objectively and learn about intact and circ'd penises. When it comes right down to it the only person who has the right to decide whether or not your son's penis is altered is YOUR SON.

When it comes to abortion and birthing choices it's the woman's body so it's the woman who has the right to make the decision. When it comes to circumcision it's not the mother's body or the father's body that is involved. It is only the child's body that is involved. Neither the mother nor the father has the right to permanently remove a healthy body part.

Please read this http://www.mothering.com/articles/ne...cumcision.html


I'm not so sure I agree with all of this. Can I really be objective?? This is my son we're talking about, not some random guy. While I do feel secure on a mental level, it really comes down to what's in my heart.
I can analyze my husband but I'm not so sure I truly believe that he's secretly unhappy he was circ'd or that he's trying to justify anything. I think a penis is as important to a man as anything on a woman's body is to her. For me, perhaps it's my breasts. Either way, I don't think his information is any less complete since I've told him all I know about the subject.

I so wish this were as simple as when I said I thought we should practice cosleeping or extended nursing or any of the other stuff we so readily agreed upon before having our first. But it's not turning out to be...

And just to play devil's advocate I'm not so sure those who oppose abortions would agree that it's the mother's body in question when you're talking about aborting. Not that I agree with that...I'm just saying.

I truly don't think it's as simple as it's the child and no one has a say except for the child. I think parents make decisions for their children's body ON BEHALF of the child all the time. I mean, god forbid something horrible happens where a child faces a possible amputation. Maybe it's a leg. Maybe it's a choice. If the child isn't old enough to make that monumental decision doesn't a parent have to do it for them??

Again, this is so very important to me and talking with my husband tonight only made me feel more passionate about my stance. I just want him to see it the same way I do and hope that eventually he will...


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## ericaz (Jun 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sustainer* 
I think you're missing Fyrestorm's point. We know that you don't want to have your baby circ'd. But at the same time you seem to think it might be okay to back down and let your husband have his way. Fyrestorm's point is that, no matter what you or your husband think about whether or not a foreskin should be cut off, no one has the right to make that decision for your son.

On the contrary, I DO NOT think it's ok to back down. But I think it's safe to say some decision has to be made before he's born, no?


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericaz* 
I truly don't think it's as simple as it's the child and no one has a say except for the child. I think parents make decisions for their children's body ON BEHALF of the child all the time. I mean, god forbid something horrible happens where a child faces a possible amputation. Maybe it's a leg. Maybe it's a choice. If the child isn't old enough to make that monumental decision doesn't a parent have to do it for them??


But we are not talking about a life saving heath care decision. We are talking about elective cosmetic surgery on an infant. A cosmetic surgery that will permanently alter your son's sexual function.


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## Fyrestorm (Feb 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericaz* 
On the contrary, I DO NOT think it's ok to back down. But I think it's safe to say some decision has to be made before he's born, no?

No ..no decision has to be made...your son can make that decision when he turns 18 and can make his own decisions.

Default is do nothing....no decision needed.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericaz*
Can I really be objective?? This is my son we're talking about, not some random guy.

As far as the general question of whether or not circ is a good idea, you can be more objective than someone who has been circ'd. Once you've determined whether or not circ is a good idea, it shouldn't make a difference whether it's your son you're applying the information to or a random male. If it's a bad idea it's a bad idea.

Quote:

I think a penis is as important to a man as anything on a woman's body is to her. For me, perhaps it's my breasts.
I agree. And aren't you glad your parents didn't cut off your nipples when you were a baby?

Quote:

Either way, I don't think his information is any less complete since I've told him all I know about the subject.
The difference is that he has a penis so he THINKS this makes him an authority on the penis. But he has no experience with having an intact penis so he has no basis for comparison. You, on the other hand, have never had an intact penis or a circ'd penis, so you're not walking around thinking you know everything there is to know about what the experience of having a penis is supposed to be.

Quote:

And just to play devil's advocate I'm not so sure those who oppose abortions would agree that it's the mother's body in question when you're talking about aborting. Not that I agree with that...I'm just saying.
The point is that it shouldn't be the father's decision because the father's body is not involved. The mother's body obviously IS involved. But in the case of circ, there is only ONE person whose body is involved and it is neither the father nor the mother. It is the son.

Quote:

I truly don't think it's as simple as it's the child and no one has a say except for the child. I think parents make decisions for their children's body ON BEHALF of the child all the time. I mean, god forbid something horrible happens where a child faces a possible amputation. Maybe it's a leg. Maybe it's a choice. If the child isn't old enough to make that monumental decision doesn't a parent have to do it for them??
There is such a fundamental difference between those situations that the principles of one don't apply to the other. If something horrible happens and an amputation might be medically indicated, that contrasts sharply with routine circ because with routine circ NOTHING HORRIBLE HAS HAPPENED and you're talking about removing a healthy body part. In your example, the child isn't able to make the decision himself and the decision has to be made before he reaches the age at which he would be able to make the decision himself. But in the case of circumcision, it is NOT true that it can only be done when the child is too young to make the decision himself. It can be done at any time. If he's 18 and he decided he wants to be circ'd, he can have himself circ'd.

I hope you can convince your husband, but even if you can't, I hope you don't allow your son to be permanently altered without your son's consent. I hope you stand up for your son's rights, the way you would want your parent to stand up for your rights if someone wanted to cut off your nipples or your genitals when you were an infant. It is a mother's duty to protect her baby.


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericaz*
On the contrary, I DO NOT think it's ok to back down. But I think it's safe to say some decision has to be made before he's born, no?

If you agree that it's not ok to back down and let your husband have his way, then you have conceded the argument. If it's not okay to back down and let your husband have his way, then the only "okay" decision is not to allow your son to be circ'd. Right?


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericaz* 

No, not at all. It really bothered him that his did not look like his dad's. So, it's the idea of looking different than other boys in general but even more so, the idea that son and father will not look the same since that exact same issue had such a huge impact on him growing up.

I'm dumbfounded by this one.

I grew up without ever knowing my father's foreskin status. It wasn't until my son was born and my father congratulated me on not having him cut, that he told me he also wasn't cut. I mean, it makes sense, my brother and I weren't cut, but I never played the matching game with my father's genitalia.

The whole "matching" thing really doesn't make sense to me at all. Does it make sense to you? Did you match genitals with your mother? Can he explain it better? Why did it impact him? How did it impact him?

On the one hand, you say you don't think your husband feels damaged by his circ, but on the other hand you say the fact that he was cut and his father wasn't, "hugely" impacted him. The story's not consistent. It really sounds like he's wrapping a lot of baggage around this issue.


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericaz* 
I'm not so sure I agree with all of this. Can I really be objective?? This is my son we're talking about, not some random guy. While I do feel secure on a mental level, it really comes down to what's in my heart.
I can analyze my husband but I'm not so sure I truly believe that he's secretly unhappy he was circ'd or that he's trying to justify anything. I think a penis is as important to a man as anything on a woman's body is to her. For me, perhaps it's my breasts. Either way, I don't think his information is any less complete since I've told him all I know about the subject.

I definitely think your husband is trying to justify circumcision. The fact that he's using the old lockerroom argument, a feeble one at best, tells us that.

Quote:

I truly don't think it's as simple as it's the child and no one has a say except for the child. I think parents make decisions for their children's body ON BEHALF of the child all the time. I mean, god forbid something horrible happens where a child faces a possible amputation. Maybe it's a leg. Maybe it's a choice. If the child isn't old enough to make that monumental decision doesn't a parent have to do it for them??
Here's a question: If this were your daughter, would you be debating whether or not it was okay to have her clitoral hood removed? This isn't a decision made for life/death situations, which is often the case with amputations.

Quote:

Again, this is so very important to me and talking with my husband tonight only made me feel more passionate about my stance. I just want him to see it the same way I do and hope that eventually he will...
Good luck.

I want to impress upon you though, that he might not be comfortable with it for a while. I've heard of some men coming around after seeing their son and getting used to it. I think in most cases, circ'd men fight for it out of issues surrounding their sense of identity and self-worth. But you have to remember that your child is your child, yes, but he is his own person. No one should permanently alter his body for non-therapeutic reasons without his consent.


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## thixle (Sep 26, 2007)

I just got back from the maternity ward, DH, DD, and I saw 3 intact brand-new baby boys, one even had a sign on his bassinet that said "I'm Intact, Don't Retract!" It was so bittersweet, knowing that one baby out of three was absolutely not going to be circ'ed.

*ericaz*- knowing everything that you know, and everything you've told your hubby: As soon as he sees his whole newborn son, he might be dumbfounded as to what is supposed to be cut off. Babies become real the minute they are born to a lot of people. If you can't get your DH to agree with you before then, you may still be suprised after the birth. Those babies just looked so beautiful, in all the different mottled colors. In this twisted country, YOU have the say of whether it stays or goes. Please, don't allow anyone to cut a perfectly healthy part off of your son!


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

Erica, I spent my entire school career in boarding schools with totaly open, communal shower rooms. And yes, we all looked. It was not until high school that modesty (homophobia) etc became an issue. Six year olds don't know about that stuff !!! Not once was I ever witness to a comment about someone's circ status. No one cared. Some were "Roundheads", some were "Cavaliers". No different from some being blond and some dark haired.

As for your DH assertion that being "different" from his Dad was a source of consternation for him. I just don't get that. It certainly was not an issue for my son. I think that when you explain that you were not comfortable with letting some doctor cut off half his penis, he will be most thankful. On the other hand, should you allow your DH to have his way, what will you say to your son when he asks you WHY ???? And given that he will have access to all the information that we have today, and more, he very likely will ask. Circumcision is cosmetic surgery, and no one has the right to force that on some one else.


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## lizziejackie (Jun 1, 2005)

I BTDT with EVERYTHING that's transpiring in your house, including worrying about the future of your marriage over leaving your son intact. I REALLY feel your pain right now. I could share with you some horrible emails from my DH stating how strongly he felt over this. I felt stronger.

Your husband loves you. He will love that unborn son and, after he's born, he will be amazed how much he loves it. Stand your ground, momma. Stand it NOW and let the chips fall where they may after the baby is born. My guess is -- he will stop pushing and get over it. It seems to have worked here.

My goal was to get the baby home w/out being circed and let things slide from there. I DID write a letter to the hospital in advance stating the baby MUST HAVE TWO SIGNATURES TO GET CIRCED and to not even bring the circ subject up to my husband and/or I -- that was preventing my DH to going around my back and getting it done. The issue was not brought up at all, save for one dorky nurse who was just plain out WEIRD about it. DH brought it up one more time after we got the baby home and I plain out said NO.

Good luck. Hang in there. I know it's so so stressful.

kelly


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## Kimono (Aug 29, 2004)

Can you convince your husband to at least NOT have it done soon after the birth? Remind him that it can be done at any time so no, a decision does not have to be made before the birth. You can also remind him that circumcision can interfere with establishing breastfeeding.

That could buy you some time.


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## Greg B (Mar 18, 2006)

I can add one more little note to all the great advice you have been givne so far. I am circ'd and my sons are not. As far as I can tell, this has not been an issue or problem for them. they have not been traumatized by the difference as far as I can tell. Of course, by the time they are your husbands age, then they could be interviewed to find out for certain...

Your husband cannot know if there will be an impact on your son if they are left normal. No way can he predict how his status or their peers status will affect them. It could be perfectly fine, a non issue. If he is rational, he has to agree that there is no way to know how it will affect your son. So even though this argument should have no validity from the standpoint of moral duties to care for your son, even if you buy into it for other reasons, it still is not persuasive.

Regards


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

It is much more likely that he will resent being circ'd than he will resent being not circ'd. If he resents not being circ'd, he can get himself circ'd. If he resents being circ'd he cannot get himself uncirc'd.


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## Night_Nurse (Nov 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericaz* 
how I might better present my case. I'm truly not all that interested in hearing how some of you would leave your husband if he wouldn't change his stance. Just looking for some sound support here....









I'm not sure how to respond. I guess all of us here can supportively say it must stink to be in your situation. Nobody would want a pregnant mama to have to have conflict over an issue so important to her. But the way I see it, you have two choices. One - you circumcise the baby. Two - you leave the baby intact. There isn't going to be a happy compromise unless you find a doctor who will only circ one half of the penis (said w/ tounge in cheek - I'm not advocating circ at all folks).
It sounds like you've presented your spouse with information from all sides of the circ/intact argument. It sounds like he's not willing to admit to the harm of circ and how leaving baby intact is the bet decision. I don't know that there's any magical formula to make him "see the light". I am foggy-minded with cold virus right now and I'm sure I'm not articulating well but this isn't going to be a situation where compromise is an option. But if your husband wins the argument, it's your son who will lose something.


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## Greg B (Mar 18, 2006)

There are two aspects to consider here that may help you.

1) Neither you nor your husband have to make a decision now. You both can continue discussing and pondering. There is absolutley no evidence to support RIC as being better than circ later. Anyone saying you must do it now is not being rational. In fact, there is good reason to believe that circ is more safe, less traumatic, has more predicable outcomes, and is morally better later in life.

2) RIC is wrong morally and philosophically. If someone chooses to advocate for RIC, they must be the one to provide arguments why the advantages outweigh the moral and philosophical reasons against it. They must provide the references and you must be able to follow the logic.

If not, then realize you are agreeing to emotional and irrational arguments. We do that all the time, so nothing says that is wrong...however, it should not be done lightly, especially when you are supposed to be playing an advocacy role for your child to protect him from harm.

Bottom line is the default should be remaining normal (intact). Any other course needs strong arguments to justify it. Not strong emotional outbursts, not strong irrational feelings, but strong arguments that show the advantages for the child, supported by good evidence and a logic that others would agree is compelling. So far I have not heard any from your husband.

Regards


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericaz* 
My husband's concern with the whole circ issue is whether our son will feel *different* by being intact. Of course, with my current large circle of friends most of the boys are intact but I do realize that not everyone is as crunchy as our gang.
I'm just looking for some feedback on information I could pass on to my guy that might help aid my stance...
TIA









Well I can tell you from a guy who just recently finished the period of his life where he had to use gym showers on a regular basis, this whole uncut/cut teasing this is crazy.

Guys generally dont spend time looking at each others penises. Mostly guys are nervous about being naked and want to get in and out as fast as possible. More importantly young guys are always worried about being considered "gay". If any guy got teased about his penis, the next thing that would come out of the teased boys mouth (if not, then from someone else in the room) would be "why were you looking at my penis, are you gay?"

Trust me, guys on the puberty/teen site that I use to go to a lot always worried about teasing, and the gay line worked EVERYTIME. And trust me, if a kid wants to make fun of another kid in the locker room, he is going to find a way to make fun of him, if he is cut or not.

If your ever worried your son is going to be made fun of, this will work. Cutting off a part of his penis will not make even a bit of difference.


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## janellesmommy (Jun 6, 2004)

You don't absolutely need to make this decision now. If, before the birth, your husband agrees to leave your son intact, that's awesome. If he still hasn't agreed by the time of the birth, the default is to not do anything. If it's going to be done, the older the better.

Infants who are circumcised have a lower pain tolerance their entire lives. They are also much more likely to have problems breastfeeding.

If you wait until, say age 9, your son at least would be able to have adequate pain relief (during the operation--it is still extremely painful afterwards). The foreskin wouldn't need to be ripped as much from the penis first, because it would be at least somewhat retractable by then. There would be less of a chance of taking too much foreskin off. The wound wouldn't be subjected to urine and feces.


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## Picturesque (May 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ColoradoMama* 
When I talked to dh about "the locker room argument," his response was, "Honey, the rule of the locker room is don't look."

Ditto from my DH.


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## calngavinsmom (Feb 19, 2003)

Hey Momma. Here is an interesting article that explores the "Look like Daddy" aspect to this debate:
http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/Like-Son.htm

To quote the article:

_"At age 3, my son saw the head of his penis for the very first time. The foreskin had retracted by itself and he discovered it in this condition as he went to the potty. "It's just like Daddy's," he commented immediately, and yet Daddy is circumcised. He is now nearly 5. He has yet to notice that he is different from Daddy. As he gets older, like most kids, he'll become modest and prefer privacy. I've known of circumcised men who didn't even know until adulthood that their fathers were intact. Some men are unsure as to what their father's circumcision status is."_

It is actually funny how this story mirrors my own sons. My older son was four when he retracted his foreskin for the first time. He had the exact same reaction as the boy in this story(my dh is circed as well). He is now six and that is the only time his dads penile status has ever been brought up.

I really believe that it will be a non-issue to your son. Good luck to you making it a non-issue to your dh, in time it will happen.

Take care,
Tara


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## Metasequoia (Jun 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Greg B* 
There are two aspects to consider here that may help you.

1) Neither you nor your husband have to make a decision now. You both can continue discussing and pondering. *There is absolutley no evidence to support RIC as being better than circ later. Anyone saying you must do it now is not being rational. In fact, there is good reason to believe that circ is more safe, less traumatic, has more predicable outcomes, and is morally better later in life.*

2) RIC is wrong morally and philosophically. *If someone chooses to advocate for RIC, they must be the one to provide arguments why the advantages outweigh the moral and philosophical reasons against it. They must provide the references and you must be able to follow the logic.*

If not, then realize you are agreeing to emotional and irrational arguments. We do that all the time, so nothing says that is wrong...however, it should not be done lightly, especially when you are supposed to be playing an advocacy role for your child to protect him from harm.

*Bottom line is the default should be remaining normal (intact). Any other course needs strong arguments to justify it. Not strong emotional outbursts, not strong irrational feelings, but strong arguments that show the advantages for the child, supported by good evidence and a logic that others would agree is compelling. So far I have not heard any from your husband.*

Well said, Greg!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *janellesmommy* 
You don't absolutely need to make this decision now. If, before the birth, your husband agrees to leave your son intact, that's awesome. If he still hasn't agreed by the time of the birth, the default is to not do anything. If it's going to be done, the older the better.

Infants who are circumcised have a lower pain tolerance their entire lives. They are also much more likely to have problems breastfeeding.

If you wait until, say age 9, your son at least would be able to have adequate pain relief (during the operation--it is still extremely painful afterwards). *The foreskin wouldn't need to be ripped as much from the penis first, because it would be at least somewhat retractable by then. There would be less of a chance of taking too much foreskin off. The wound wouldn't be subjected to urine and feces.*

Excellent point!

I'm also not clear on P.'s argument - was/is he upset by the difference between he & his father because he was circumcized? I can understand a man feeling betrayed, hurt, upset if his father was left intact & he was cut but I can't quite understand why a man would feel betrayed, hurt, upset if he was left intact & his father was cut.

I really like the two posts above that I quoted. So far, he doesn't have a single decent argument.


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## ericaz (Jun 10, 2003)

We got our Penn and Teller videos in the mail. I'll be sure to post after dh and I watch!

I've gotten some great advice, particularly from the papas. We haven't talked much about this topic lately at home so there isn't much to report as of yet. I think we're both trying to avoid it.

As for what bothered him about being different from his dad - it was just that...being different confused him. I'm sure the fact that his dad is very uptight about those sorts of things and apparently didn't want to talk about it contributed to my husband's youthful confusion. So, it was not that he felt *betrayed, hurt, upset* that he was circ'd.


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

If the Penn and Teller video doesn't do it immediately, you might point your dh to this thread:

http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...d.php?t=817835

Which gives quotes from teenagers (both cut and uncut) today and how they feel about circumcision (and how, for some of them, how they feel about being circumcised).

I wonder how he'd feel explaining to his son, when his son is a teenager, that he watched the Penn and Teller video, etc., but still cut off part of his son's penis? It isn't a conversation I would want to be having with my child, you know?


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## Metasequoia (Jun 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericaz* 
I'm sure the fact that his dad is very uptight about those sorts of things and apparently didn't want to talk about it contributed to my husband's youthful confusion. So, it was not that he felt *betrayed, hurt, upset* that he was circ'd.

I wonder *why* he felt "confused," have you asked him exactly what his reasons are?

I dunno, I just feel that if someone is going to argue for circumcision, they better have some real reasons, nothing vague.


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## Greg B (Mar 18, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ericaz* 
As for what bothered him about being different from his dad - it was just that...being different confused him. I'm sure the fact that his dad is very uptight about those sorts of things and apparently didn't want to talk about it contributed to my husband's youthful confusion. So, it was not that he felt *betrayed, hurt, upset* that he was circ'd.

Sounds to me like there is a lot more going on than RIC for your husband. RIC is the easy target and scapegoat, but there is more to the story. And that is part of the problem you are having trying to discuss this with your DH, you don't know the whole story yet.

But just because his childhood was (insert what ever the issues were here) difficult for him, is no gaurantee your child will experiece the same things. Most likely your child will have a totoally unique set of experiences, RIC or not. To argue that RIC will solve problems that have not, and likely will not, occur is irrational.

So far you have lots of rational arguments why RIC is the wrong chioce. And irrational vague feelings from someone "traumatized" in childhood that RIC will solve all the problems that person experienced in their past. Which advice sounds more compelling?

Regards


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## Sustainer (Sep 26, 2002)

I remember reading an article that referenced a study in which intact sons of circ'd fathers were asked how they felt about being left intact. Almost all of them said things like "relieved," "grateful," etc.


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## TinyFrog (Jan 24, 2006)

When DH and I first started discussing circ DH asked what we would tell our son if the question came up about why they looked different. I said we would tell him the truth. We can explain why the decision was probably made to circ DH, and why it was made to leave the child intact. DH couldn't argue with the honesty/facts perspective.

I think there is a greater issue with your DH than the circ. It sounds more like he did not like the fact that is was not to be discussed. Instead of recognizing that the lack of discussion was the issue, he is turning the circ factor into the issue.

Good luck!


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## ruhbehka (Nov 5, 2006)

Growing up in the South, DH only knew of one boy who was intact, and yes, he was teased about it. But according to DH, the boy was also very overweight, and it was just "one more thing" to make fun of him about.

He wasn't concerned about it as a reason to circ our son (who is intact).


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## ruhbehka (Nov 5, 2006)

I wouldn't leave my husband. I would simply insist that it wasn't being done, and put him in the position to "convince" me to do it, not the other way around.

He's the one who wants to cut your son's genitals. Why should YOU be convincing HIM of anything?


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## ruhbehka (Nov 5, 2006)

One suitable answer to an intact boy's questions about why he looks different is...

"When I was young, people thought it was a good idea to cut off a little piece of boy's penises. So just after I was born, they cut away the skin from right here. Isn't that silly? It must have been very painful, and when you were born, I wanted you to know how much we loved you. So even though some people still did that, your mom and I didn't want to harm you like that."

You might even consider comparing it to the way people cut off the tails of certain breeds of dogs.


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## 5gifts (Nov 16, 2005)

I wanted to say something similar to PP when ever my 5yo intact ds asked.
Well, just last week, they were peeing together, he asked dad for the first time why his pee pee looked diferent. (right after comenting on how BIG it is!LOL!)

DH simply said "When I was a baby, they cut the skin off the end of mine. When you were born, your mommy said 'they don't need to do that to my baby!' " That was it - no futher discussion.

So as he walks by me, I asked him if he wished his looked like Daddy's. He told me "No! I'm glad I have my skin - the way its supposed to be." I thought it was neat he came to that conclusion himself. Then he turned to DH & said "but it didn't hurt Dad, did it." We told him yes, it hurts babies. That disturbed him, & he wanted to insist that Daddy didn't cry.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

I asked my DH who when we were expecting insisted that the peer pressure and teasing would be awful.

I asked him later what kind of teasing an intact man in his group got. "You're uncircumcised."

I asked him how his intact friend responded.
"So?"

OK, that is the horrible teasing. Come on, it was no big deal! Yes his friend was different, but he certainly wasn't emotionally scarred by the experience! These friends give each other lots of crap and this is so minor compared to the other teasing they've done.


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