# pro life feminist?



## Beth-TX

Is it possible to be a feminist and pro life at the same time? A friend of mine labeled me as a feminist one day, but I feel like I'm really disqualified since I don't believe in abortion

Please no flames. I don't judge people who are pro choice--I just don't personally feel like abortion is a good idea, with few exceptions.

peace, Beth


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## pamamidwife

I think that what you define feminism as is purely personal. I totally believe that you can be a feminist and be pro-life.

(And, I'm pro-choice)

Here is a site that you might find interesting - a group that has been around for a long time: http://www.feministsforlife.com

Years ago, I was really involved in NOW and Feminists For Life had a booth at a Intl Womans Day Celebration we sponsored. It was amazing how angry so many women were at these women at the booth - they went as far as to throw things at them. I was blown away by the agression and violence towards the FFL booth.

It was also eye-opening to me as a feminist.

I think that since having a child and being involved in midwifery my views on abortion have softened some. I would NEVER vote against choice, but I wish that our country was more supportive and warm towards mothers and children....this is a goal that I think both the pro-life and pro-choice camps should be working together on.


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## Journey

Yes, you can be a feminist and pro life. I am. I'm glad pamamidwife mentioned friends for life, as I've been seriously considering becoming a member.

Being pro life and a feminist isn't contradictory at all. Being a feminist is about equality of the sexes. How would it be fair if a woman has the choice of killing the unborn child, but the man wouldn't? Women already have tons of options when it comes to avoiding pregnancy. More so than men. If a woman doesn't want to get pregnant, she should use protection, and hope it works, but realize the fact that they COULD still get pregnant. That's the risk you take when you have sex. If, however, the woman's right to choose birth control was taken from her (as is the instance with rape), then I can understand someone considering abortion, although I personally wouldn't do it. If the woman's life is threatened by the pregnancy, than abortion is a no brainer. Especially when other children depend on the woman. And, I also understand if the baby was going to be born with severe deformities/birth defects (as in missing half their head and brain, limbs growing out of head, etc., as happened to my friend).


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## doulamomvicki

I think being a feminist and being prolife go hand in hand. I know my firends who are feminists and are pro choice sometimes bitterly disagree with me. But what is more empowering to a women than to bring life into the world?


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## Snowy Owl

Quote:

_Originally posted by Journey_
*How would it be fair if a woman has the choice of killing the unborn child, but the man wouldn't?*
If men could get pregnant, I bet abortion wouldn't be a debate. It seems like it's always been men that have decided whether it's legal or not,iIt's male politicians and male judges who make these decisions that alter the lives of women forever.
Women lose their lives performing DIY or illegal abortions. I have to disagree that you can advocate to have abortion made illegal and still be 'feminist', whatever 'feminist' means, as it is a misused term. However, if you simply tried to convince pregnant women not to abort, because you are pro-life, or worked to improve social circumstances for women faced with this dilemma, then that does not conflict with feminism.

Women have certain indisputable reproductive rights that should not be tampered with. My stance is that to try to take those rights away is anti-feminist.


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## hotmamacita

Quote:

_Originally posted by doulamomvicki_
*But what is more empowering to a women than to bring life into the world?*


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## pugmadmama

First, we have to clarify terms. I am pro-life, I am also adamently pro-choice. If a woman thinks abortion is immoral or wrong or believes life begins at conception, that is perfectly compatable with feminism. However, if we are talking about voting to give control over a woman's womb to the government instead of to the women herself then that's something different.

On one hand, I lean towards a "big tent" approach to feminism but on the other hand, there are some things that I think are "anti-feminist".

However, I would never tell a woman who is anti-choice that she shouldn't call herself a feminist. I guess my answer is that if a woman considers herself to both a feminist and anti-choice, that's her decision and I respect it. I don't agree with her reasoning, but I respect her right to label herself.

I just can't stop respecting women's choices!

Interesting, two posts on this thread nicely illustrate my concerns with the idea that the anti-choice agenda is compatable with the feminist agenda.

Quote:

_Originally posted by Journey_
*... If the woman's life is threatened by the pregnancy, than abortion is a no brainer. Especially when other children depend on the woman...*
and

Quote:

_Originally posted by doulamomvicki_
*...But what is more empowering to a women than to bring life into the world?*
Within the anti-choice community, I see too much of this. These qualifications put on women. That women are "especially" worth saving _if_ they have already had children. That nothing could possibly more empowering to women than being pregnant and giving birth.

To me, a big part of feminism that is that women are more, much more, than their ability to give birth and raise children. I am a mother, it is my life's work. But it was a choice. I think every woman deserves that same choice, even if her birth control fails or she didn't use any in the first place. And it's very difficult for me to imagine feminism with that choice removed.


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## Lucky Charm

Quote:

If men could get pregnant, I bet abortion wouldn't be a debate
I totally agree with this, and have always thought it. Men would never tolerate a women telling them what to do with their bodies, never.

That said, i do think you can be a feminist and be pro-life (i am pro choice). Feminism isnt about absolutes, its about being true to our hearts.


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## doulamomvicki

But who is speaking for the little person in the womb?








Who is protecting their right to live?









I am not trying to pick a fight or offend anyone here. I became prolife after working as a nurse. I have never had an abortion and really never had any opinion on the subject until I started working with moms who had abortions. Not one of them felt empowered by their decision. They all seem so sad, helpless and depressed.


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## pugmadmama

Quote:

_Originally posted by doulamomvicki_
*But who is speaking for the little person in the womb?








Who is protecting their right to live?









I am not trying to pick a fight or offend anyone here. I became prolife after working as a nurse. I have never had an abortion and really never had any opinion on the subject until I started working with moms who had abortions. Not one of them felt empowered by their decision. They all seem so sad, helpless and depressed.*
Because some people feel "sad, helpless and depressed", it should be illegal to everyone? I know women who regret having had abortions. I also know women who felt empowered and even women just didn't have any feelings about it beyond relief it was over.

As for the "little person in the womb", I'm more concerned for the big person who owns the womb in question. There is no "right" to invade someone elses body for nine months.


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## pamamidwife

One thing that I have noticed from working not only within the pro-choice movement, but also at a clinic, is that the pro-choice supporters are so resistant to acknowledge that women experience grief and loss after an abortion.

It's like admitting that there are some heavy emotional consequences means that you're supporting the anti-choice agenda. I just don't get it.

What is lacking is solid, pro-choice after counseling that honors a woman's experience and her feelings. Instead, many women walk around with intense guilt and unrequited loss.

I have met many women, however, that feel very solid and fine with their abortion choice. I don't think that it's all one way or another as far as generalizing how all women who have abortions feel afterwards.

It's like saying that all women who are mothers are lost, depressed, and without a passion for life.

Still, back on to the topic, I honestly believe that someone can be pro-life and feminist.

I have a strong aversion to hormonal birth control and I know that until we have better choices (ones that do not increase our risks of breast cancer, etc.), and until we honor women and children, abortion will be a choice for many. I cannot possibly sit in judgement abotu what abortions are "ok" and what are not, so I choose to keep it legal.


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## pamamidwife

Quote:

_Originally posted by pugmadmama_
*There is no "right" to invade someone elses body for nine months.*

Wow, I don't know that I've ever looked at a new life as an invader of sorts. It is not like the baby is necessarily jumping into the womb by its own account, you know?

I think that quote is pretty harsh - and I'm pro-choice!


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## Super Pickle

I agree that that attitude (fetus as invader) totally demeans the amazing miracle of new life and assaults the innocence of children. However, I understand that many people feel that way towards their offspring before birthing them, especially in the early months before they feel them moving.

Anyway, Beth, NOW won't have you but they don't have a monopoly on the term feminist so call yourself whatever you want!

Our abortion culture is anti-woman, imo. If our society is set up so that a woman can't finish a degree or be accepted by her family or succeed in a career or support herself because she happens to be going through a completely natural and normal part of the human lifecycle then something is screwed up.

I am a thinking, educated woman and I am entitled to stand up for my well-researched and well-thought-out beliefs. I believe that it is more important to have laws that reflect respect for human life at all stages than to have laws that enable citizens to avoid the consequences of their actions. Mainstream feminists might say I'm a pseudo-woman or a man in a dress or some such nonsense because I don't agree with them but part of being a feminist is being able to think for yourself and participate in the public sphere according to your convictions.


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## pugmadmama

Quote:

_Originally posted by pamamidwife_
*Wow, I don't know that I've ever looked at a new life as an invader of sorts. It is not like the baby is necessarily jumping into the womb by its own account, you know?

I think that quote is pretty harsh - and I'm pro-choice!*
For some women, a pregnancy is not a "new life". It's an "invader" or even a "parasite". Those are both words I've seen women use in writing about the abortion experience. As a woman whose own pregnancy was a miracle, I am somewhat uncomfortable with those words. But I don't feel, as a feminist, that I have the right to judge those women as "wrong" or "harsh" in the words they chose to use with their pregnancies.

Pregnancy can be empowering or it can be devastating. A pregnacy can be a dream come true or it can be a nightmare.
When we refer to _every_ pregnancy as a "new life" or a "little person", we are taking away women's choices. Because who can terminate a "little person"? Who can deny a "little life"? But that's not what a pregnancy, especially the first trimester, is to every woman. Or sometimes that is exactly what it is but because of circumstances in that woman's life, she still chooses abortion as her best alternative. I think women who call themselves feminists have an obligation to respect that.


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## pugmadmama

Quote:

_Originally posted by pamamidwife_
*One thing that I have noticed from working not only within the pro-choice movement, but also at a clinic, is that the pro-choice supporters are so resistant to acknowledge that women experience grief and loss after an abortion.

It's like admitting that there are some heavy emotional consequences means that you're supporting the anti-choice agenda. I just don't get it...*
The fact that some women do grieve and experience depression has been used by anti-choicers as a basis with which to fight choice. I think that's why there is resistance to admitting to it.

However, that is changing, slowly but surely. I go to a number of feminist boards and every so often, someone will ask for some help for with emotional help in healing from an abortion, but they are wary of contacting groups that are anti-choice. Among the resources I've seen listed are the book/website "Peace After Abortion", the book "A Healing Choice" and this webpage entiled, "After your abortion, a natural response".

I've looked at each of those resources and I think they are things that any feminist could use or recommend, no matter what side of the choice debate she supports.


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## sarahwebb

Quote:

_Originally posted by Super Pickle_
*I believe that it is more important to have laws that reflect respect for human life at all stages than to have laws that enable citizens to avoid the consequences of their actions.*
One of the many reasons I am pro-choice is that it breaks my heart to think of a child as a "consequence" of someone's actions.

I agree that our culture should support women more so that the choice to abort is based solely on a woman's desire not to have a child. I believe it is tragic that some women chose abortion because of external pressures--acceptance, finances, ability to finish school or continue work. Philosophically, I am more anti-abortion than pro-abortion, but I could never work to restrict another woman's choice to have an abortion.

I believe this decision should be the woman's alone. I am a person of faith, and I believe God takes care of aborted fetuses/babies/children. I also think it's possible that the freedom to choose may allow some women to find faith who might be forever alienated from God by another person's attempt to force them to bear a child in the name of God...

doulamomvicki wrote:
>>I have never had an abortion and really never had any opinion on the subject until I started working with moms who had abortions. Not one of them felt empowered by their decision. They all seem so sad, helpless and depressed.<<

In what capacity did you work with women who had abortions? Would a woman who was comfortable with her decision seek the kind of care you provided? All of the women I know who have had abortions have felt good about their decision, yet I know there are women who feel sadness and guilt after an abortion. Although I feel compassion for these women, I do not believe that their difficulty in dealing with their decision is grounds for denying all women that choice.

doulamomvicki wrote:
>>But what is more empowering to a women than to bring life into the world?<<

Perhaps nothing if the woman choses to bring that life into the world. For many who don't chose it, having a child can be devastating.

Even though my first pregnancy was planned, I had a period of serious doubt and soul searching. I know that I am a better parent because I was able to sort through that period in my pregnancy with the knowledge that legal abortion was accessible to me. I fear that without that choice, I may never have come to embrace motherhood. I am grateful that I truly am a mother by choice. I am closer to God and in love with my son. Being pregnant and becoming a mother has only strengthened my conviction that this is something women should choose of their own free will without restriction or coercion from anyone.

I guess I've rambled on without answering the original question. Like many, this is a passionate topic for me.

I probably have more discomfort with the term "pro-life" than I do with the idea of coupling "pro-life" and "feminist" in the same description. Often the "pro-life" movement seems far more focused on getting babies born than it does promoting their lives...but that's a completely new topic.

Best,
Sarah


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## pamamidwife

Quote:

_Originally posted by pugmadmama_
*For some women, a pregnancy is not a "new life". It's an "invader" or even a "parasite". Those are both words I've seen women use in writing about the abortion experience. As a woman whose own pregnancy was a miracle, I am somewhat uncomfortable with those words. But I don't feel, as a feminist, that I have the right to judge those women as "wrong" or "harsh" in the words they chose to use with their pregnancies.
*
Since you didn't say "some women feel" as you did with your most recent post, I took it as those were YOUR feelings about pregnancy, not what some women *may* feel. I felt it was pretty harsh since it appeared to be referring to *all* pregnancies.


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## pugmadmama

Quote:

_Originally posted by pamamidwife_
*Since you didn't say "some women feel" as you did with your most recent post, I took it as those were YOUR feelings about pregnancy, not what some women *may* feel. I felt it was pretty harsh since it appeared to be referring to *all* pregnancies.*
Please also note also that I used the term "invade" in reply to the "little person in the womb" question. The implication seems to be that the fetus's "right" to stay in the womb should override a woman's right to terminate the pregnancy. That's why I chose the word "invade" in my reply. Women who _want_ to be pregnant are not having to deal with other people asking about the "rights" of the "little person in their womb".


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## tessamami

Random thoughts: one penis, no vote. . . .whose body? my body

I think some who say they are pro-life themselves, but would not choose for others are more rightly called pro-choice. What choice is about, is individuals deciding for themselves. So, unless you are the individual in question, choice is not yours.

As far as caring for the child, many mothers are in it alone, or with few resources: $$$, childcare, housing, breastfeeding support, etc. are not available - hell some of us who wanted to breastfeed and had $$$, a husband, etc. had trouble. . . .that is to say. . .whether feeding was an issue or not, there is so little support for motherhood by government or corporate America, that making the choice to have a child easier is one huge uphill struggle.

*As far as being feminist and pro-life, the difficulty I have with it is that so much about feminism depends on the struggle for equality among the sexes. I mean, it would be easier to call someone a pro-life feminist if men could have babies, too.*

And in the pro-life camp, FFFs aside, there are so many more men who are members. It seems to me more female to understand that one woman's choice may not be another's.


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## Super Pickle

Tessamami, you're wrong about the pro-life movement being mostly male. Perhaps you have that perception because many of the powerful politicians who want the pro-life vote are men? Actually, the numbers are overwhelmingly female. I was at the annual statewide pro-life conference two weeks ago and there were about 20 women to every one man there. There may be an occasional man who directs a pregnancy center but women outnumber men by far at the annual march, the conferences, and especially in the pregnancy center movement.


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## EFmom

In regards to the original post, personally I don't see how it would be possible to be both. To be anti-choice is to deny women the power to be responsible for their own bodies. I don't see that as consistant with feminism.


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## candiland

Quote:

I agree that our culture should support women more so that the choice to abort is based solely on a woman's desire not to have a child. I believe it is tragic that some women chose abortion because of external pressures--acceptance, finances, ability to finish school or continue work. Philosophically, I am more anti-abortion than pro-abortion, but I could never work to restrict another woman's choice to have an abortion.

Quote:

I believe this decision should be the woman's alone. I am a person of faith, and I believe God takes care of aborted fetuses/babies/children.
I can say that I have really, really, really struggled with the abortion issue for years now. On the one hand, I am very anti-patriarchy and anti-government (to the extent that it interferes with one's personal choices). On the other hand, I view babies as babies, whether they're a month in utero or a month old. And Sarawebb kind of reflected my feelings about it, presently. I know *my* feelings on the issue, and I expect people to respect them. OTOH, women who have or have had abortions have *their* feelings on the issue, and that needs to be respected, equally. I don't think you can legislate women's feelings. They are legitimate.
I also agree that this seems to be a religious issue. We all know that church and state are not supposed to mix. A Christian may believe that it is a sin to "kill an unborn child". My religion may tell me that if I have an abortion, the spirit will return when I am ready for it. KWIM? I also think that the Universe, or God, or whatever you'd like to call that energy that we phase in and out of at birth and at death, takes care of these souls and that they will have another chance.
Ya know, a lot of pro-choicers feel, as I do, that we cannot tell a woman what to feel and how to feel it. How are we to know what a woman is going through? What her life is like? That her feelings are invalid or that the feelings that dictate her choices are wrong? Yet many pro-choicers on this board, I'm sure, would turn around and invalidate a woman's feelings if she tries CIO, for example. I know that if I despised being around my children because I never, ever had a break from them, or I could try a modified CIO to distance myself a bit, I would probably try a modified CIO. I wonder how many women would invalidate a woman's feelings who was going through this? By chiding them, saying this will pass, telling them any form of CIO is child abuse, etc.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you truly feel like you shouldn't judge others for their feelings and personal choices, then you should take it beyond the abortion debate and support and validate women's choices across the board. I try to educate people about various issues if they are interested; yet I try to be supportive when someone does something that doesn't sit well with me. That is my form of feminism.
Thank you for reading my novel:LOL


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## candiland

Oh, man! Did I kill ANOTHER thread?:LOL


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## isleta

I agree with EFmom.

You cannot be pro-life and feminist, it just does not work. Womans body, womans choice.

Candiland-I just wanted to respond to the topic, I do not really have the *energy* to debate this topic again(woman's choice).


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## lula

I consider myself a strong feminist, I am also strongly pro-life anti-abortion etc I am decidedly not anti-choice but hey ths part of the labels argument is probably another whole thread.









I do not think that the two philosophies are inconsistent. I think that abortion demeans the status of women and trivilizes the importance of life, human beings and especially women/children, and unborn future women. I think my anti-abortion position compliments my feminist idealogy. My two closest friends are very pro-choice, pro-abortion rights etc. and also strong feminists. I do not think that their views on abortion mean they are not feminist, we have different perspectives on how true and meaningful equality should be achieved. This does not make me less feminist any more than it makes the person who is pro-choice because "our husband's should have the right to decide if a child should be added to the family because he will be supporting the child" a feminist. She thinks that the husband should be able to dictate all decisions including abortion, an odd twist. (yes, scarily enough a real person, my cousin







I cannot believe that I actually heard this statement)

my first foray into activism. lula


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## anothermama

have skimmed the replies....

First of all, I have a problem with the whole notion of "feminism" because, right or wrong, it connotes a type of milliant stance that I don't feel an identity with.

I personally speak out and volunteer on womens issues. And I think that we live in a HIGHLY sexist country. And I think in an ideal world women and men could be equally cherished but right now they aren't. But I've never called myself a femenist. And....some of what I've read kind of reaffirms why......."You CANNOT align yourself with *me* if you don't agree with EVERYTHING I SAY!!!!!!!!".







:

I'm totally pro life, but as with most personal issues, I don't think I've ever been in a situation to tell someone they were wrong for doing it.

I belive that I fully advocate for women when I say that abortions need to be far more restricted because I personally see it as a womens health issue and it's yet another issue in womens health where women are herded in and out like a conveyor belt, not told fully whats going on, and most women who have them have no clue whats really going on. And I don't think it's a good thing for women to have them so readily availible.

So, to answer the question...probably not, but I think it's because "Femenist" is an exclusive club, and I'm kinda glad I don't belong anyways.


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## Snowy Owl

I still don't understand if the label 'pro-life' means that you believe/advocate to have women's access to abortion made illegal? That implies only one thing to me: taking away a legal right from a woman, which is decidedly anti-feminist.
I guess it also dependes what your definition of feminist is.


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## anothermama

Quote:

_Originally posted by Snowy Owl_
*I still don't understand if the label 'pro-life' means that you believe/advocate to have women's access to abortion made illegal? That implies only one thing to me: taking away a legal right from a woman, which is decidedly anti-feminist.
I guess it also dependes what your definition of feminist is.*
It also depends on what your defninition of a person is.


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## Lucky Charm

Quote:

Main Entry: 1ad·vo·cate : to speak or write in favor of; support or urge by argument; recommend publicly. 2 a person who writes or speaks in support or defense of a person or cause
Anothermama, how can you claim you advocate when you want to restrict? Saying you want to restrict a womans right to choose in no way advocates it.


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## pugmadmama

Quote:

_Originally posted by anothermama_
*...First of all, I have a problem with the whole notion of "feminism" because, right or wrong, it connotes a type of milliant stance that I don't feel an identity with...*
Feminism is the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes. Period. I have a hard time imagining have a problem with that whole notion, although I know a lot of people do.

If I judged every group by it's fringe members, I'd not support any of them. Feminism is no different.


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## Journey

You speak of feminism as the rights of women... well what about the rights of the little women waiting to be born? What about their rights?

And saying you can't be feminist and pro life... I suppose that means Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, and Mary Wollstonecraft weren't really feminists then?

The following is copied and pasted from the Feminists for Life of America's website:
Pro Life Feminists

"Feminists for Life" is not an oxymoron, it's a redundancy. The reduplicative nature of the phrase is evident in the basic tenets of feminism: That every human being deserves the opportunity to develop into the best she or he is capable of; and that each individual be respected, however minimal or great their development may be.

Edited to delete the article from the Feminists for Life of America (which is linked to above). I'll just keep my mouth shut on this one.


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## somemama

You can be whatever kind of feminist you want to be!!









Personally I prefer the term "humanist," though, because that is more encompassing.


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## anothermama

Quote:

_Originally posted by sweetbaby3_
*Anothermama, how can you claim you advocate when you want to restrict? Saying you want to restrict a womans right to choose in no way advocates it.*
Well then let me clarify....I want, most importantly, to advocate for HUMAN rights. Sadly, in the US today, that means having to advocate for women a bit more because we live in a sexist nation. But my over riding passion and feeling is towards HUMAN rights...black, white, man, woman, baby or grown up.


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## anothermama

Quote:

_Originally posted by pugmadmama_
*Feminism is the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes. Period. I have a hard time imagining have a problem with that whole notion, although I know a lot of people do.

If I judged every group by it's fringe members, I'd not support any of them. Feminism is no different.*
I wasn't judging, and if you'll re-read I said that the word feminism CONNOTES a certain thing.....I didn't say I belived it or anything. It's true that the femenist movement has created a situation in which the NAME, the WORD feminist connotes certain things. Thats all. And, in this case, it's not just a small percentage of fringe members you are talking about that perpetuate certain stereotypes, which is why I've chosen NOT to label myself in that way.

And, personally, I feel that today it does more harm than good for a person who's trying to take a position of wanting equality...if I want equality then I need to not seperate myself from other groups with lables if I can help it.


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## anothermama

Quote:

_Originally posted by mamajulie_
*You can be whatever kind of feminist you want to be!!









Personally I prefer the term "humanist," though, because that is more encompassing.*










Yes, thats perfect.


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## doulamomvicki

anothermama -

I couldn't have said it better!


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## doulamomvicki

You too mamajulie!


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## candiland

Quote:

As feminists, we must not continue to buy into the historically male world view: the solution to sociological problems (e.g., poverty, overpopulation, individual's sexual irresponsibility) is convenient violence-- suffered predominantly by the world's poor.








Whoa. Heavy.
But don't the poor suffer when they bear unwanted children they can't care for? Doesn't this kind of tell poor women that they aren't smart enough to choose for themselves? Doesn't this turn "poor women" into the tools of people with an agenda, too?
I mean, I'm talking about life for these people until poverty is eliminated.


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## isleta

Quote:

_Originally posted by Journey_
*

Historically, feminists have valued human need above the non-feminist world view of "maximization of profits." Abortion is big business, bringing handsome profits to the usual few: white, middle-class, educated. The vociferant, well-meaning but misguided feminists who promote abortion serve as effective marketing tools for those businesses making money from the agony of the poor.

Our thesis bears repeating: "Feminists for Life" is not an oxymoron, it's a redundancy.

Dr. Maureen Jones-Ryan
Reprinted from SisterLife*
Sorry Dr. Maureen I am not a TOOL.
I am a woman who believes that this decision is a personal one that should not be made by you or anyone else except the family involved.

The agony of the poor is that we are looked upon as not understanding or lacking the knowledge to make a decision on our own.

There is a big difference when a pro-choice feminist is called pro-abortion or that I "promote abortion" I promote a woman's choice.
Abortion is one option.

I believe in equality for woman also and know that no medical procedure has been banned or been unavailable for men. Why should it be denied for women?

This is why I stated that feminism and pro-life do not suit one another.


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## sarahwebb

Quote:

_Originally posted by Journey_
*Pro-abortionists unwittingly have chosen to justify an evil based on convenience rather than struggle honestly and intellectually with the philosophical, sociological, and historical aspects of this momentous life-and-death issue.*
I belive pro-choice advocates have decided that the honest struggle with this life-and-death issue should be the sole responsibility and right of each pregnant woman and whomever she choses to involve in her decision making process--partner, family, God.

Quote:

_Originally posted by Journey_
*Feminists have always spoken out against racial injustice. Why do so many now remain silent when the iniquitous relationship between racialism and pro-abortion legislation is errantly unabashed?*
Although I have no doubt that I would be able to obtain a safe abortion whether or not access in the United States remains legal, I raise my voice in support of choice because I believe it should be available to all women regardless of race or economic status.

The CDC abstract entitled _Abortion Surveillance--United States, 1996_ states that 57% of the women who obtained legal abortions were white. But the rate of abortions among black women was 2.7 times that of white women. According to the report, "Race-specific differences in legal induced abortion ratios and rates might reflect differences in factors such as socioeconomic status, contraceptive use, incidence of unintended pregnancies, and access to family-planning and contraceptive services."
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss4804a1.htm

Quote:

_Originally posted by Journey_
*Abortion is big business, bringing handsome profits to the usual few: white, middle-class, educated. The vociferant, well-meaning but misguided feminists who promote abortion serve as effective marketing tools for those businesses making money from the agony of the poor.*
Conversely, one could argue that the anti-abortion activists are tools of the wealthy establishment. Legislators voting to restrict abortion know that their educated, wealthy wives and daughters will always have access to safe, legal abortion. One could further argue that restricting abortion access for poor women perpetuates the cycle of poverty and insures a continuing supply of cheap, unskilled labor.

I believe restrictions on legal abortion disproportionately affect poor, uneducated women. Wealthy and middle class women will travel to obtain an abortion. Educated women will learn how to perform abortion procedures for one another. Those with the fewest resources will continue to have the most limited choices.

I appreciate this discussion and the respect that everyone is showing for one another. I doubt many of us will change our minds, but I believe we all gain greater understanding of both sides of the issue.

Thank you.
Sarah


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## pugmadmama

Quote:

*...It is certainly easier for the white, male-dominated state legislature and Congress to approve (i.e. encourage?) the elimination of the inconvenient fetuses of poor women (i.e. women of color) than it is to work toward a) eliminating poverty; b) increasing education standards for the poor; c) increasing employment opportunities for the poor; d) providing daycare for the working poor; e) funding serious research for improved contraception; and f) developing a long-range plan to build a society that will provide adequate food, housing, and education for all...*
It is certainly easier to force individual women to carry unwanted pregnancies to term than it is force society to a) elminate poverty, b)increase education standards for the poor, c)increase employment opprotunities, etc.

Until the anti-choice movement starts putting _just as much_ effort into things like eliminating poverty and funding research for improved contraception, these kind of statements will continue to ring false to me.


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## EFmom

People who like to think that safe abortions will be widely available for women who decide to get one anyway even if they are illegal are hiding from the reality that women will be butchered and will die if abortion is made illegal.

My 80 yo FIL is a retired physician. Like most people of his era, he was "pro-life" while he was young. Then he did his internship and residency at large hospitals in NYC. After seeing women come in after illegal abortions, he changed his mind very quickly on the issue.


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## Arduinna

My feeling is that if you don't agree with the most basic rights of equality for women, then your definately not a feminist.

I honestly don't understand the current trend toward erasing all diveristy and trying to make us all colorless, genderless and lacking of cultural differences.








: I feel that we are completely mistaken to think that universalism of experience is good for the world. We are not all the same. Being different doesn't automatically mean that some are better than others or deserve more rights. Being a feminist doesn't mean that one doesn't care for children, men or whatever.

But hey if anyone decides they aren't a feminist, I'll take their word for it.

I'm glad that there are alot of us here that do believe in equal rights for women.


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## anothermama

Quote:

_Originally posted by EFmom_
*People who like to think that safe abortions will be widely available for women who decide to get one anyway even if they are illegal are hiding from the reality that women will be butchered and will die if abortion is made illegal.

My 80 yo FIL is a retired physician. Like most people of his era, he was "pro-life" while he was young. Then he did his internship and residency at large hospitals in NYC. After seeing women come in after illegal abortions, he changed his mind very quickly on the issue.*
Thats sad.......but not likely to happen. That was a different time, less feminism, less rights for women, and pre Roe V Wade. There is no way IN HELL activists and doctors would let abortion completely stop, even if it was illegal. There's just no way.


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## sarahwebb

Quote:

_Originally posted by EFmom_
*People who like to think that safe abortions will be widely available for women who decide to get one anyway even if they are illegal are hiding from the reality that women will be butchered and will die if abortion is made illegal.*
I agree. I believe that safe abortions will be available for a very limited few--those with extensive financial resources and the very educated. Many other women will suffer injury or death attempting to terminate their pregnancies.

I'd also like to clarify my earlier post. I believe the disproportionate number of black women receiving abortions is the result of socio-economic and educational disadvantage, not the result of abortion legislation targeting poor women and women of color.

It is easier to legislate abortion than to address the many societal problems that contribute to it. I believe addressing the underlying problems--poverty, education, access to family planning--would go a long way towards reducing the number of abortions. But I also believe that there will always be women who, regardless of their circumstances, will become pregnant and wish to have abortions. I would like to see far fewer abortions, but I will always support legal abortion because I believe the choice to carry a child is ultimately the woman's.

Best,
Sarah


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## Journey

This is harsh, I will get flamed, but I believe that if abortion was made illegal (except in the instance of rape and health concerns), and the woman went out and received an illegal abortion, she deserves whatever comes to her.

A person goes and murders another human being because they're ruining their life or whatever. They deserve any consequences they receive, be it jail, being shunned by society, or being fatally injured.


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## Bladestar5

I feel the same way, Journey.


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## phathui5

Quote:

A person goes and murders another human being because they're ruining their life or whatever. They deserve any consequences they receive, be it jail, being shunned by society, or being fatally injured.
What she said.


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## Bladestar5

Well, at least we aren't the only ones, hey Journey?!








We can be flamed together


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## EFmom

Ahh, now we're at least getting a little honesty. And how interesting to see what's coming from a self-proclaimed Christian or two.







:


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## Quirky

Journey, your posting of that "feminist's" (I use the term loosely) manifesto violates the copyright policy here. You need to edit it to quote a 100 word chunk or less (with a link).

I cannot see how someone who wants to legislate what women do with their bodies can be called a feminist. And do these so-called feminist pro-lifers work with other pro-lifers to further restrict contraceptive choices as well, such as the morning-after pill, the IUD, and the pill? And what about sex education? What are FFL etc. actually DOING to improve women's lives?

Sounds like wolves in sheep's clothing to me.


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## applejuice

I have always considered myself a feminist and I am pro-life.

Women with children are a true power.

Only women can have children. This is one of the most powerful statements a human being can make in her lifetime, to bring into this world another human being to carry on with half of our genetic material and live past our own lifetime.

Raising this child up properly is one of the most important things any one can do.

This is truly the only way the average person can change the world.

You give up that chance if you abort a healthy child.

JMHO


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## pugmadmama

Quote:

_Originally posted by Journey_
*This is harsh, I will get flamed, but I believe that if abortion was made illegal (except in the instance of rape and health concerns), and the woman went out and received an illegal abortion, she deserves whatever comes to her.

A person goes and murders another human being because they're ruining their life or whatever. They deserve any consequences they receive, be it jail, being shunned by society, or being fatally injured.*
I have no word to reply to such a hateful belief. How sad.


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## pugmadmama

Quote:

_Originally posted by applejuice_
*...Raising this child up properly is one of the most important things any one can do.

This is truly the only way the average person can change the world.

You give up that chance if you abort a healthy child...*
Of course raising up a child is _one of_ the most important things anyone can do. But it's not the only imporant thing, not by far.

There are lots of women out there changing the world who have never given birth...some of them are doing it by raising their children (including unhealthy children) and some are doing it in countless other ways that have nothing to do with raising their own children.


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## Bladestar5

I know a woman who had 2 abortions. I love her regardless of the poor choices she made. I don't think it is fair to kill a baby just because the father sinned. I consider life as starting at conception.
I am a fetal rights activist, but I would not stand and pickit and yell obscene things to women whe are considering an abortion.

I told dh that I would under no circumstances abort a healthy pregnancy just because I was raped. He knows that I would not kill MY child. It is still a part of me.
I won't use an IUD just because their is no absolute way to prove if it is abortive or not. I sure hope that I didn't have any prospective pregnancies that ended in abortion by taking birth control when I was younger.
Now that I am old enough to think through my choices, we are not using chemical birth control.
Dh uses condoms. If I did get pregnant, I would love our child as a gift from G*D.


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## Bladestar5

And a word on what feminism is to me:
That women should receive equal rights, that do not cause death to others.
And it would be true feminism to disagree, and at the end of the day put our arms around eachother and give eachother support.


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## pugmadmama

Quote:

_Originally posted by Bladestar5_
*...And it would be true feminism to disagree, and at the end of the day put our arms around eachother and give eachother support.*
Except, of course, the ones who have "gotten what they deserve" when they die from an illegal abortion. I mean, that's what you said in your last post.

Bladestar5, You can't have it both ways. You cannot be so hateful towards women who make a choice you disagree with and then expect us all to join you in a chorus of "kumbayah". So go hug someone else who thinks women "deserve what they get" when they do things you don't agree with, I want no part of it.


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## Bladestar5

Whatever







:
I mean, if I murder an adult and go to jail, then I get what I had coming, but murder an unborn baby, and it's just women's rights. That is sad.


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## Bladestar5

I know a man who had his child aborted against his will. He was all ready to stand up to the plate and raise the baby. He is still hurt 20+years later.


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## emmalala

I am amazed that it took until Page Three of this thread to talk about men - the rest of the posts never mention the other half of the equation at all!!

Flame me for saying that a woman barely has a choice if the father doesn't take responsibility. Abortions are all about spineless "fathering" and I get so furious at blaming women like it was *only* their idea to make a baby and then destroy it.


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## applejuice

emmalala:

ITA

Most of the abortions that I personally know of occurred because the "sperm donor" did not want to take responsibility.

The "mother" then made arrangements, through her own actions or under cohersion by the "sperm donor", to do away with the fetus because she did not want to raise the baby in such a bad situation.


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## EFmom

Quote:

You cannot be so hateful towards women who make a choice you disagree with and then expect us all to join you in a chorus of "kumbayah". So go hug someone else who thinks women "deserve what they get" when they do things you don't agree with, I want no part of it.


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## Bladestar5

Well, see, there is a difference also. It is MURDER. Feminism and murder don't mix. What about the baby? Is it feminist to kill your children because they are an inconvenience? No, I don't think it is right.
It is feminist to do what you want to YOUR body...not your baby's.


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## anothermama

I don't understand why "feminists" want to use a health issue as a political tool. It's not ok. You're talking about a womens health issue and that the majority of women getting them done do NOT know whats TRULY going on with them. Informed consent is out the window. The same "feminists" would be up in arms, and ARE up in arms, at the alarmingly high rate of c sections in this country...and yet shuttling off 15 year olds without their parents consent AND without them being fully aware is ok??

Like I said.....I never labled myself a feminist and seeing the incredibly black and white/judgemental attitudes held by people in this thread is one reason why. I actually have a concept that *gasp* the world and this issue are not as black and white as my political party would have them seem. However, the true womens issue here, to me, is part of a greater issue of womens health, educating women, and making them active participants in their health care rather than bystanders. And abortion on demand as it is today, in the real world, in 2004.....is NOT doing women and girls ANY favors being given the way it is. I don't know that it needs to be made illegal, but it sure as hell needs to be restricted and changes need to be made to the way womens health as a whole is approached.


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## pamamidwife

Quote:

_Originally posted by anothermama_
*The same "feminists" would be up in arms, and ARE up in arms, at the alarmingly high rate of c sections in this country...*
Where are these feminists that are up in arms over c-sections?

Lest we forget, it was the feminsts of the time that pushed for anesthesia during childbirth. Some still equate lack of sensation during birth with feminism.

Anyway, it's hard to find popular feminism that truly supports mothers. I am hoping the tide is changing.


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## dado

Quote:

_Originally posted by Journey_
*if abortion was made illegal (except in the instance of rape and health concerns), and the woman went out and received an illegal abortion, she deserves whatever comes to her.*
what about the male, when exactly does he get the bill for his role in the unfortunate situation?


----------



## dado

Quote:

_Originally posted by phathui5_
*What she said.*
what happened to forgiveness? with all due respect, i cannot for the life of me think which of the many faiths represented on MDC is compatible with that kind of thinking...


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## doulamomvicki

To be truly pro-life is to support life from it's conception to it's natural end.

Quote by dado:
what happened to forgiveness? with all due respect, i cannot for the life of me think which of the many faiths represented on MDC is compatible with that kind of thinking...

Is this not the message of the Bible? Most faiths (Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddists) have forgiveness, not revenge, as a conerstone of their beliefs.


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## EFmom

I hope the "informed consent" issue cuts both ways, for those who are anti-choice. Do you also think that a woman with an unwanted pregnancy should be counselled about every possible problem that could happen in the event the pg was carried to term, plus the problems that might arise later?


----------



## Bladestar5

Ok, so maybe Journey could've worded it a little less harshly, but I think she was trying to get across acountability.
I don't think that abortion is necessary in MOST cases. I don't consider certain medical reasons as "abortion". I do forgive my friends who have had abortions....I am just saying that if a woman is going to PURPOSELY go out and get an abortion if it were illegal, and KNOWING she is going to an unsafe place to do it, then she ought to have known better.
I don't believe in abortion as birth control, that is for darned sure. It definitely needs to be regulated.
I would die of sorrow if my teenage daughter thought she couldn't come to me and tell me if she accidentally got pregnant. I know that some girls are afraid of their parents, and something needs to be done about that. But, there is no need in today's society for so many teens to be getting pregnant, and getting abortions. I know there are exceptions, but MOST teens know what they are doing when they have sex.
As far as a rape victim goes, well, I stated that I don't think it is fair to punish the child for the father's sins, but I am not sure how I feel about other women getting abortions after rape. I think there are some gray areas there. How do we know if a woman was definitely raped? Can't we at LEAST put a limit on the number of abortions a woman has had?
Has anybody ever read about that woman(I forget her name) who was a late-term abortion victim who survived?
And what Dado said...what ABOUT the man's feelings? I know some women use abortion as a means to hurt a man.
I also know of a teen who had an abortion and was pregnant within a couple months, and carried that baby to full term. I forgave her, but it hurt that she could think the first as disposable, and the second as a keeper.
I used to be pro-choice, but many things turned me the other way. I just think somebody needs to care about these babies.


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## kerikadi

I find it ironic that the women on the board that are pro-choice don't believe the women that are pro-life should have the "choice" to be a feminist.







Why do they have the "right" to take feminism away from us? Seems they would fight for us to have that "choice"







:

Keri


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## Bladestar5

I guess it is the fact that they see abortion differently. I used to be pro-choice...I am pro-choice with what a woman does with HER body, just not her baby's. I don't see it as healthcare but they do.
This is one of those threads that makes my stomach ache when I see that there is another response.








It is another one that I wish I never responded to. I know how I feel, I just don't know how to word it to say how I feel.


----------



## Journey

Quote:

_Originally posted by Bladestar5_
*I guess it is the fact that they see abortion differently. I used to be pro-choice...I am pro-choice with what a woman does with HER body, just not her baby's.*


----------



## EFmom

Quote:

I find it ironic that the women on the board that are pro-choice don't believe the women that are pro-life should have the "choice" to be a feminist.
Obviously, you have the choice to call yourself whatever you want. I just don't believe it, that's all. As has been made abundantly clear, the lives of women who would be butchered if abortion were not safe and legal mean less than nothing to the "pro-life" people. That to me speaks volumes about whether or not you are feminists, as does Bladestar's "How do we know they were raped" attitude.


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## Bladestar5

That was taken completely out of context. I mean that every woman who wanted an abortion would claim to have been raped. Sorry if you thought it was meant another way. I am not very good at wording.


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## anothermama

Quote:

_Originally posted by dado_
*what about the male, when exactly does he get the bill for his role in the unfortunate situation?*

Thats an excellent idea...maybe that should be a turning point issue...start sending the guys bills for the abortions rather than having them be fed or state funded. I'd be all for that. And I would bet it would be a tool to see a decrease in abortion.


----------



## anothermama

Quote:

_Originally posted by EFmom_
*I hope the "informed consent" issue cuts both ways, for those who are anti-choice. Do you also think that a woman with an unwanted pregnancy should be counselled about every possible problem that could happen in the event the pg was carried to term, plus the problems that might arise later?*

I think women should be told facts. Period. And thourough facts. Women should not be scared into doing ANYTHING with their health, which is what you seem to be implying. Women today are scrared into doing things in pregnancy and, yes, I think thats also screwed up and, yes it ought to change as well.

But you are confusing the issue. The point is that women and gilrs are often told NOTHING. They come out of there completely unable to explain what happened to them. I haven't seen one single anti-lifer be able to explain that one.....


----------



## anothermama

Quote:

_Originally posted by EFmom_
*As has been made abundantly clear, the lives of women who would be butchered if abortion were not safe and legal mean less than nothing to the "pro-life" people. .*

THATS BECAUSE IT WONT HAPPEN!!!!!!!!!!!

(sorry to shout, but it appears you missed that point before so I just wanted to make sure you saw it....and I can't figure out how to bold stuff here....)


----------



## EFmom

Quote:

it appears you missed that point before
No, I didn't miss that bit of wishful thinking. Given past history in this country and current practice in other countries where abortion is neither safe nor legal, I find it entirely without merit.


----------



## anothermama

Quote:

_Originally posted by EFmom_
*No, I didn't miss that bit of wishful thinking. Given past history in this country and current practice in other countries where abortion is neither safe nor legal, I find it entirely without merit.*

So what...you also think women are in dager of losing the vote and that we are one step away from genital mutilation and that if things were just a teeny bit different we'd have child labor again???

It's NOT wishful thinking. It's realistic thinking based on the society and social climate we live in today. Scaring women into thinking other wise seems VERY contridictory to the feminist agenda, IMHO.


----------



## pugmadmama

Quote:

_Originally posted by anothermama_
*But you are confusing the issue. The point is that women and gilrs are often told NOTHING. They come out of there completely unable to explain what happened to them. I haven't seen one single anti-lifer be able to explain that one.....*
First, I am not anti-life. I am pro-choice.

The reason people with a pro-choice stance can't explain it is because you are wrong. There is not one single surgical procedure a person can have in the United States without first signing papers that explain all the possible _medically known_ side effects. So the allegation that women are told "nothing" is not only false, it defies logic in this very litigious land we live in.

From the Planned Parenthood website (scroll down about half way), they list eight major health risks, including organ injury and death.


----------



## pugmadmama

Quote:

_Originally posted by pamamidwife_
*Where are these feminists that are up in arms over c-sections?

Lest we forget, it was the feminsts of the time that pushed for anesthesia during childbirth. Some still equate lack of sensation during birth with feminism.

Anyway, it's hard to find popular feminism that truly supports mothers. I am hoping the tide is changing.*
I would like to see some citation on the allegation that feminists are the ones who "pushed for anesthesia" or that some feminists still "equate lack of sensation during birth" with feminism".

Feminism have always been about choice. If a woman wants pain medication, it should be available to her, and if she wants to give birth without that, the systems should be in place to truly support that.

The people I know who have been doing things like trying to stop the closing the of the only free standing birth center in Manhattan (it closed anyway), fighting for midwives to be covered by insurance and going to protests like the one yesterday for the Valentines Day rally for VBAC options have been feminists.


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## Bladestar5

Can we just stop for a second to get the definition of feminism....
I believe it is equal rights for women.
The question of this thread was if you can be pro-life and feminist. Yes. You can.
I hate the term pro-life, though. That would make pro-choice like an opposite, which is ridiculous. Because the opposite of pro-life would be pro-death....It is a hard topic...sometimes people have a hard time saying what they mean. It can get heated very quickly. We are all passionate women. I am sure none of us are pro-abortion.







Many of us just want some SERIOUS LIMITS on it.
I think women should have equal rights. I just don't know how to voice how I feel without saying something extreme. I am not HAPPY if a woman suffers because she gets an abortion...I just think she should know what to expect....It is all so confusing.
I wish I could put into words how I really feel. I am truly trying to. Uggh.


----------



## Bladestar5

Did anybody ever see the movie about a woman named Ruth, where the "Pro-llife" and "Pro-choice" sides were fighting over whether a junkie should abort her baby or not?







:


----------



## anothermama

Quote:

_Originally posted by pugmadmama_
*First, I am not anti-life. I am pro-choice.

The reason people with a pro-choice stance can't explain it is because you are wrong. There is not one single surgical procedure a person can have in the United States without first signing papers that explain all the possible medically known side effects. So the allegation that women are told "nothing" is not only false, it defies logic in this very litigious land we live in.

From the Planned Parenthood website (scroll down about half way), they list eight major health risks, including organ injury and death.*
No, sorry, you are wrong.

Sure, the *techincalities* are that women are made to sign all sorts of things for procedures, big and small. But lets be REAL, shall we? How many 17 year old girls really REALLY stop to read the ENTIRE waiver when they go in? How many times have you been to a doctor and had them say "It's just a standard release" and just glanced over it and signed it. THATS the reality of the country we live in today. How many women who get "rushed" into c sections read what they are signing? I think I signed a few things in labor with my daughter in a birth center...no clue what they were. And no that doesn't make me stupid or any of the women having abortions stupid either..it makes them NORMAL.

AND!!! Right as you enter an abortion clinic IS NOT the time to be trying to get a likely nervous and scared person to sit down and think rationally about the procedure they are about to have and make sure they read AND understand all the fine print. Just like expecting a women in labor to fully read what she's signing is ridiculous.

In medical facilites across America, the standard thing you will nurses and MAs say DAILY is "Heres this form and it basically says this.....so sign there" and people DO. The fine print is RIDICULOUS and the ammount of info a woman SHOULD know before getting an abortion would fill a book anyhow.

Out of curisosity, how many abortions have YOU been present at? Because I've been to more than my fair share...I've seen how it goes. I'm not saying the staff isn't caring, but most women in there want in and out as quick as possible and they sign much of what is put in front of them without really reading. And, again, that really isn't even the TIME to be putting that info out there.

Women and girls need to be educated AHEAD of time and in order for that to be done effectively, abortion needs to STOP being used and abused as a political tool.


----------



## Bladestar5

How about this idea.
Pre-abortion counseling session, and then an ultrasound. Many women have no idea how advanced their fetus is when they choose an abortion. Then a 24-hour wait, and more forms to sign. Videos showing the procedure...information, so women at least don't rush into it?


----------



## spero

Quote:

_Originally posted by Bladestar5_
*Has anybody ever read about that woman(I forget her name) who was a late-term abortion victim who survived?*
Her name is Gianna Jenssen and her story is incredible...I have her book. She is a Christian who sings and speaks nationally on pro-life issues. She has cerebral palsy due to the botched abortion she survived, but she is incredibly active...a true miracle.

http://www.marys-touch.com/testimonies/jessen.htm

Quote:

Gianna Jessen is truly one in a billion. Gianna, the peppy 14-year-old [added by poster...she is now 27] from San Clemente, California was never born. . . she was aborted.

Gianna goes about the country singing praises to the Lord and sharing her incredible life story of how she was spared from a deadly "Saline Abortion" at seven months (pre-natal). Through the grace of God, tiny two pound Gianna was born alive, instead of dead, after the legal abortion attempt.
I know, it's a Christian link, and y'all discount that...but you can't find Gianna's name or story anywhere else! Planned Parenthood certainly isn't going to tell you about a miracle baby who was SUPPOSED to have been aborted and went on to live a rich, full, productive, happy life...

Back on topic...
I wasn't going to reply to this topic, until I saw Bladestar's question...I wanted to answer that one. I'm uncomfortable with the term "feminist" b/c it is so widely associated with NOW. I was happy to see Patricia Heaton give Feminists for Life an endorsement - she is Catholic and pro-life and absolutely considers herself a feminist.


----------



## anothermama

Quote:

_Originally posted by Bladestar5_
*How about this idea.
Pre-abortion counseling session, and then an ultrasound. Many women have no idea how advanced their fetus is when they choose an abortion. Then a 24-hour wait, and more forms to sign. Videos showing the procedure...information, so women at least don't rush into it?*
Well, thats generally whats done. And, in an abortion clinic setting, the ultrasound is really done fast and not detailed to the mother.

How it is now just doesn't work. Girls aren't getting the info they need even WITH pre abortion counseling and an U/S.


----------



## Bladestar5

Wow, this is all so confusing. I don't know why abortion was ever even invented. Anyone know that? Thanks Skellbelle! That is her!!!


----------



## Journey

I had to laugh about the usage of "anti-life". Too many times the word "anti-choice" has been thrown out there, purposely to offend. Using the word "anti-life" was perfect to point out the absurdity in that word/phrase!

Pro-lifers aren't anti-choice.
Pro-Choicers aren't anti-life.

I know this is a subject that invokes a lot of feelings, but don't use these phrases "anti-choice" or "anti-life" anymore. It's just silly.

BTW... Bladestar... that movie is Citizen Ruth. I've seen it a few times, and I don't like how it takes the easy way out at the end, and doesn't actually come to any conclusion, ykwim?


----------



## the sunshine

Quote:

_Originally posted by anothermama_
*Well, thats generally whats done. And, in an abortion clinic setting, the ultrasound is really done fast and not detailed to the mother.

How it is now just doesn't work. Girls aren't getting the info they need even WITH pre abortion counseling and an U/S.*
Not true. When my ex was trying to force me into a late term abortion, I was given plenty of info, and given a detailed picture of the ultrasound. They knew, however, that I didn't want to have an abortion, so they refused to do it. They even took the blame for me, telling my ex that it was too late to do the procedure.

So much for moneygrubbing death doctors.


----------



## dado

i'm disturbed that all this discussion is focused on the woman. why does the female have to bear this load alone, are there no viable ideas on how to get the male half of the situation involved?

i think(?) we can all agree the very best abortion is the one that never needs to happen. so what - and how - do we need to teach young men and women to lessen the likelihood? i'm asking for partly selfish reasons as i have a daughter who will - G-d willing - one day be of "that age". pre-abortion counseling seems to me to be way way to late: we need pre-pregnancy counseling.


----------



## Bladestar5

I totally agree Dado.


----------



## anothermama

Quote:

_Originally posted by the sunshine_
*Not true. When my ex was trying to force me into a late term abortion, I was given plenty of info, and given a detailed picture of the ultrasound. They knew, however, that I didn't want to have an abortion, so they refused to do it. They even took the blame for me, telling my ex that it was too late to do the procedure.

So much for moneygrubbing death doctors.*
Late term abortion is different.

No ones saying they are money grubbing.

And, it is true. I've seen how abortions are done typically. Typcially they aren't late term. Your experience is the exception to the rule and does not negate the rule.


----------



## applejuice

Quote:

_Originally posted by pugmadmama_
*I would like to see some citation on the allegation that feminists are the ones who "pushed for anesthesia" or that some feminists still "equate lack of sensation during birth" with feminism".

If a woman wants pain medication, it should be available to her, and if she wants to give birth without that, the systems should be in place to truly support that.*
Anyone who has gone to college and taken any "Women's Studies" Courses, as I did at UCLA in the early 1970's, knows the history behind this. The use of forceps by some doctors and anesthesia by Queen Victoria were hailed as progressive by feminists of the time.

Hospitalization of all laboring women followed, especially after WWII, and the rest is history.

And that is how we are left. Men have taken over the natural functions of a woman's body.


----------



## pamamidwife

For Pugmadmama,

There are a wide variety of books out there on the history of childbirth and obstetric anesthesia in our culture. I encourage you to read some.

This is from a book called "What A Blessing She Had Chloroform":

Quote:

Still, so great was the desire for something, anything, to ease the pain of childbirth that the popularization of Twilight Sleep became a cause célèbre among suffragettes. Caton quotes one call to arms from 1915: "The insistence of the American women that they shall have the benefits of the new method is bringing results. Keep on ladies! Hammer away with all your might. Emancipation day has come." The New York Times joined in the cause with a series of editorials accusing doctors who resisted the drugs of a callous indifference to women's needs and an exclusive preoccupation with their own convenience.


----------



## pugmadmama

I am aware of the basic history. (Which isn't to say I couldn't learn more.) But my basic point is that women, feminists included, have never had the power over the male medical establishment that you seem to be implying they do. The practices you see today are a direct result of the male medical establishments priority of money, power and control over women's bodies. I simply do not understand blaming feminists for that when feminists have been so key in fighting against it.

You said, "Some still equate lack of sensation during birth with feminism." I assume you are talking about today, not 1915, with that statement. And I would like to see where that is espoused as a feminist position today.

As I said, I know a lot of feminists...both in real life and on-line and I have yet to come across that philosophy. What I see is a lot of support for whatever choices a woman makes...be it an epidural or a completely unassisted birth.


----------



## pugmadmama

Quote:

_Originally posted by anothermama_
*...Sure, the *techincalities* are that women are made to sign all sorts of things for procedures, big and small. ...AND!!! Right as you enter an abortion clinic IS NOT the time to be trying to get a likely nervous and scared person to sit down and think rationally about the procedure they are about to have and make sure they read AND understand all the fine print. Just like expecting a women in labor to fully read what she's signing is ridiculous...*
So what is the answer? What would be enough to satisfy you? A woman comes in a for an abortion...how much information would be enough? And what would that information be?

Because often when I ask people who are against abortion what would be enough in terms of warning women about side effects, they admit that nothing would be enough. And that makes me think that this whole issue is just another tactic to take away legal and safe abortion.


----------



## emmalala

I really think you have to back it up, away from the abortion itself, and talk about how the WOMAN and the MAN got into that situation. How does he get away scotfree? What choice did she make that leaves her pregnant and alone?


----------



## dado

Quote:

_Originally posted by emmalala_
*What choice did she make that leaves her pregnant and alone?*
i realize it's probably not what you intended, but i am very bothered by the wording of that. the fact is, a woman can do *nothing* wrong - she can make nothing but appropriate choices - and still end up in a mess because there is no way to keep the male side of the equation from simply walking off and washing his hands of the whole business.

i don't know what the answer is. only thing i can come up with is that men are required - i mean, really required - to provide financial assistance no matter and the full force of the law needs to be brought to bear on this. a while ago i floated a proposal to use the IRS as the enforcement vehicle since it deals with money and reaches almost everyone.

whatever the mechanism, this is all hopeless unless there is an easy, enforceable way to force men to own up to their responsibilities.


----------



## anothermama

Quote:

_Originally posted by pugmadmama_
*So what is the answer? What would be enough to satisfy you? A woman comes in a for an abortion...how much information would be enough? And what would that information be?

Because often when I ask people who are against abortion what would be enough in terms of warning women about side effects, they admit that nothing would be enough. And that makes me think that this whole issue is just another tactic to take away legal and safe abortion.*
Of course. Feminist insist on seeing this as a political tool, a way to control people...so that makes sense that you see it that way.

What would be ENOUGH is a whole scope of the problem solution. There needs to be vast overhaul in the medical establishment in terms of how it treats women in general, and abortion is one.

And abortion is clearly a symptom to other, larger, problems as well. We're talking better sex ed in public schools, and I personally feel that should include really in depth studies of womens reproductive health, with all the reproductive problems that pop up in todays society. Simply being educated on all the ins and outs of how we WORK would be a HUGE step forward. Someone else said something about preabortion counseling not being adequate...we need pre PREGNANCY counseling and I TOTALLY agree with that. The last minute is not the time to educate ANYONE about ANYTHING.

The male issue has been brought up. Many many men, especially YOUNG men see this as another form of birth control and mainly because they also don't know the ins and outs of how comlex and amazing the reproductive system is. Again, education BEFORE hand is the key.

We need better health care for women. Better education for women of childbearing age. UNBIASED information about how babies develop. And it needs to not be a one time thing. It needs to be out there all the time.

If all that was in place, I'm SURE that we'd see a significant decrease in abortion.

Someone also mentioned accountability. Abortion, to me, is also a symptom of a lack of accountability we have in this nation. Not only do we need to teach about this stuff in all it's technicalities and scientific specifics, but it needs to be taught in a way that promotes respect for our bodies.....we lack that.

IF after all that, a woman comes into an abortion clinic, I wish that it could be less assembly line. I wish there was a network of support ....I wish there was a person who was a doula for aborting women. In all of this, the greatest worry I have in my life is that my daughter will one day have an abortion and not tell me and she wont be able to properly care for herself afterwards because she'll hide it. It scares me already that so many girls do this already. There should be counseling that is possibly a full day long ahead of time along with a support person to work with you through it and be there afterwards to call if there are issues.

The way it's done NOW isn't enough, and thats the bottom line. And no ammount of political posturing changes that OR helps the real women and girls out there doing this right now. Just because you are scared to change it doesn't mean it doesn't need to be changed or should just be kept as is.


----------



## anothermama

Quote:

_Originally posted by emmalala_
*I really think you have to back it up, away from the abortion itself, and talk about how the WOMAN and the MAN got into that situation. How does he get away scotfree? What choice did she make that leaves her pregnant and alone?*
This is true but it's not all about abortion....it's about PREGNANCY. Men get off scot free when the woman KEEPS the baby. It's because we live in a sexist nation and, yeah, that needs to change too.


----------



## kama'aina mama

Quote:

_Originally posted by emmalala_
*How does he get away scotfree?* What choice did she make that leaves her pregnant and alone?
Dado, I think you and she are in agreement... that the woman did not CHOOSE to be alone and pregnant. I think her syntax threw you for a loop.


----------



## EFmom

Quote:

And that makes me think that this whole issue is just another tactic to take away legal and safe abortion.
Of course it is.

Isn't it just terrible that when women come in for difficulting in conceiving or for their initial OB-GYN consultation should they be pregnant, that they aren't sat down and "counselled" about ALL the possible pitfalls and complications of pregnancy, post-partum depression, and child rearing so that they can have informed consent about wishing to continue the pregnancy? For the ones who want to place a child for adoption, I hope they get counselling with members of Bastard Nation, so that they know the lifelong issues that a significant number of adoptees and birth mothers really have with adoption. Shouldn't this really be legislated?


----------



## doulamomvicki

What needs to be done is a grassroots effort that supports women who are alone/facing a difficult pregnant. Forget depending on goverment programs.

Quote from EFmom:

Isn't it just terrible that when women come in for difficulting in conceiving or for their initial OB-GYN consultation should they be pregnant, that they aren't sat down and "counselled" about ALL the possible pitfalls and complications of pregnancy, post-partum depression, and child rearing so that they can have informed consent about wishing to continue the pregnancy? For the ones who want to place a child for adoption, I hope they get counselling with members of Bastard Nation, so that they know the lifelong issues that a significant number of adoptees and birth mothers really have with adoption. Shouldn't this really be legislated?

__________________________________________________ __
On the other hand maybe they should also get conselling from the women who are members of Project Rachel - so they know the lifelong pain and trauma these women experience due to having a abortion. As for the children who were aborted we will never know their side of the story. I don't think one of them would say "Thank you for aborting me"


----------



## pugmadmama

Quote:

_Originally posted by anothermama_
*Of course. Feminist insist on seeing this as a political tool, a way to control people...so that makes sense that you see it that way...*
I'm a feminist, I don't see abortion as a political tool. You should be very careful when making blanket statements like that. I think, and a lot feminists I know think, that abortion is a women's health and/or privacy issue that is _wrongly_ being held hostage as a political issue.

Quote:

_Originally posted by anothermama_
*...What would be ENOUGH is a whole scope of the problem solution. There needs to be vast overhaul in the medical establishment in terms of how it treats women in general, and abortion is one. ...The way it's done NOW isn't enough, and thats the bottom line. And no ammount of political posturing changes that OR helps the real women and girls out there doing this right now. Just because you are scared to change it doesn't mean it doesn't need to be changed or should just be kept as is.*
I agree with a lot of what you've written. I wish that those things were the focus, instead of the pitched battle over the legality issue.


----------



## pugmadmama

Quote:

_Originally posted by doulamomvicki_
*...As for the children who were aborted we will never know their side of the story. I don't think one of them would say "Thank you for aborting me"*
I do. My _personal_ belief is that life begins at conception...but I just as strongly believe that this life here on Earth is not the very best a soul can hope for.


----------



## spero

Quote:

_Originally posted by doulamomvicki_
*On the other hand maybe they should also get conselling from the women who are members of Project Rachel - so they know the lifelong pain and trauma these women experience due to having a abortion. As for the children who were aborted we will never know their side of the story. I don't think one of them would say "Thank you for aborting me"*


----------



## dado

Quote:

_Originally posted by pugmadmama_
*wrongly being held hostage as a political issue.*
that isn't by accident. as long as men can keep women divided, patriarchy lives on.


----------



## DaryLLL

Quote:

_Originally posted by EFmom_
*Isn't it just terrible that when women come in for difficulting in conceiving or for their initial OB-GYN consultation should they be pregnant, that they aren't sat down and "counselled" about ALL the possible pitfalls and complications of pregnancy, post-partum depression, and child rearing so that they can have informed consent about wishing to continue the pregnancy? For the ones who want to place a child for adoption, I hope they get counselling with members of Bastard Nation, so that they know the lifelong issues that a significant number of adoptees and birth mothers really have with adoption. Shouldn't this really be legislated?*
I think I get you EFMom.

Just how much is the govt supposed to do to help women and men reproduce "properly?" When she comes in already pg, either terrified and wanting to be rid of it, or thrilled and eager to be a mom, should the govt worker sit her down, and by law tell her each and every thing for and against bringing a new life into the world? How long would that take? Certainly one would need more than an hour to learn it all. And the pregnancy would be ticking away.

Do we want to order women (and men?) to go through this or should it be her/his personal responsibility? Or should boys and girls be taught this in public school, in great detail, even before they are sexually active, so they can be prepared before they start having sex?

Sex and Reproduction 101

How babies are made
How to prevent pregnancy
How to get pregnant
What to do with the baby
A. If wanted (planned or unplanned)
1. Pregnancy
2. Labor
3. Birth
4. Feeding
5. Money to live on while taking care of baby
a. If single, mother or father
1. If working
2. If still in school
3. If want to stay home with baby
b. If married or in relationship
1. If working
2. If in school
3. If want to stay home w/baby
c. If minor
d. If adult
e. custody if relationship ends
6. Clothing
7. Housing
8. Sleep issues
9. Illnesses
10. Teething
11. Education (for parents and child)
12. Parental relationship
13. Etc
B. If not wanted
1. Adoption
a. How to adopt out
b. emotional issues surrounding adoption (this would take hours, family reactions etc)
2. Abortion (etc, etc)...

This is more than any "counseling session" could cover.
How far do we go, and should our tax dollars pay for it?


----------



## anothermama

Quote:

_Originally posted by EFmom_
*Of course it is.

Isn't it just terrible that when women come in for difficulting in conceiving or for their initial OB-GYN consultation should they be pregnant, that they aren't sat down and "counselled" about ALL the possible pitfalls and complications of pregnancy, post-partum depression, and child rearing so that they can have informed consent about wishing to continue the pregnancy? For the ones who want to place a child for adoption, I hope they get counselling with members of Bastard Nation, so that they know the lifelong issues that a significant number of adoptees and birth mothers really have with adoption. Shouldn't this really be legislated?*

nonononononononononononono!

They don't correlate!

And you are TOTALLY just avoiding the issue!!!!!!

All issues of womens health need to be tackled but there is a HUGE difference between how women and girls are shuttled in and out of abortion clinics...they come out of it and don't really even *get* what happened.

A woman who has a pregnancy usually has, at the end, some inkling of what happened. I mean, thats how most women get their education about their bodies...through pregnancy!

The emotional issues are aside. Medical issues are what we are talking about.

If you can't address the issue, fine but sheesh don't try to derail it like that........


----------



## EFmom

Exactly, DaryLLL.

It's not derailing the issue at all--it is responding to a non-issue raised by the anti-choice movement. The anti-choice lobby works to throw one obstacle after another at women seeking to obtain safe and legal abortion. Pretending that women aren't informed about the risks associated with this particular medical procedure as opposed to any other medical procedure is bogus.


----------



## kama'aina mama

If we are attempting to have a respectful discussion that does not go off the rails and vanish... I think we all need to employ the common curtesy of using the names that each group has chosen for itself. If you are so fired up that you cannot simply use the terms pro-life and pro-choice in the interests of not unneccesarily offending those you would like to debate this with maybe you too emotional to participate in this discussion at this time.


----------



## mcimom

kama'aina mama

I've often wondered about these PRO-BABY KILLER people. I mean that's nice - that really opens up the conversation doesn't it? That really says "I care about you and am open to a conversation about this issue."

If you want it, it's a baby. If you don't, it's an "invader" - a "choice", a "cluster of tissue", a "mass of cells", a "fetus", etc.

The fact is, getting pg is NO accident. That is how sex is supposed to work. If a woman doesn't want to be pg then she has 2 options to show respect for herself and everyone else (potential people included):

1) don't have sex (yes, yes, of course women are raped, i'm talking about CHOICE here, isn't that the word?)
OR
2) have your baby-making equipment removed (get your tubes tied, hysterectomy, etc.)

BC is not enough and it hasn't done one lick for feminists or feminism. It has not given us any "control" over our bodies - it is a lie. And anybody who knows anything about Ms. Sanger (PP is one of the biggest parts of the Pro-choice movement) knows that she was for population control of minorities and the poor. It was not about empowering women at all. It was just another way of being Hitler. Blech.

I understand that being pg is not for everyone and I don't expect anyone, much less everyone, to live by my own personal religious beliefs, so I would never say you can't have BC, etc. But abortion is murder and in most cases, a pg is a direct result of a CHOICE and as Mother Teresa so elegantly put it...

"It is a poverty to decide that a child must DIE so that you may live as you wish." especially when said child would not even be around were it not for your CHOICE.

Respect yourself. Respect your FEMININITY. That is FEMINISM. Not trying to be like a man or being pissed that men dont' have babies or denying what your body is capable of.


----------



## ekblad9




----------



## isleta

Quote:

_Originally posted by Journey_
*This is harsh, I will get flamed, but I believe that if abortion was made illegal (except in the instance of rape and health concerns), and the woman went out and received an illegal abortion, she deserves whatever comes to her.

A person goes and murders another human being because they're ruining their life or whatever. They deserve any consequences they receive, be it jail, being shunned by society, or being fatally injured.*
Hate and revenge are slippery slopes







What ever happened to consider others as yourself.

I am so *surprised* this turned into an abortion thread!







: I thought maybe the thread had been re-named.

If you want to know about the pro-life and feminist arguement you just have to google the two words together.

I have stated here my views and I am really astonished at how many individuals feel they have the right to go into another persons life and tell them what to do.

If a woman chooses to have her baby I am very joyful. If she decides to end a pregnancy I am there to help her and give a helping hand. This is pro-choice to me. I also feel this is what feminism imbraces. Not judging what another person does, just accepting and respecting their choices. I cannot be inside another persons head or life and I will not make gross allegations regarding their own personal lives.

Someone talked about gov't intrusion, why worry about them when I have my neighbors and non-gov't people around.









Here is an exerpt from Christiane Northrup's book, " Women's Bodies, Women's Wisdom"

Quote:

When a woman chooses to have an abortion on behalf of herself and her own life, she is swimming against a five-thousand-year-old tide of conditioning, of social agendas propounded by churches and other male-dominated institutions, that say that a woman's primary purpose is to have children and to serve her husband. Allowing women to choose the couse of their own lives goes very deeply against a very old grain.

Quote:

Over the past twenty years, as the number of women going against the grain has vastly increased, the political and societal forces that want to "keep us in our place" are becoming more vocal-and more destructive. A century and a half of rhetoric designed to make women feel guilt and shame surrounding abortion and choosing self-development over motherhood(at least for a time) should give little wonder that abortion is not an easy issue for women to talk about freely. Yet if every woman who ever had an abortion, or even a third of them, was willing to speak out about her experience-not in shame, but with honesty about where she was then, what she learned, and where she is

now-this whole issue would heal a great deal faster.
She also has a section on healing and another view of abortion. It is a wonderful reference for all women and their bodies. This is just one section in the book.


----------



## Journey

Quote:

_Originally posted by isleta_
*I have stated here my views and I am really astonished at how many individuals feel they have the right to go into another persons life and tell them what to do.*

Uhhh.... let's put this in simple terms...

A human plans on killing another human being or a human being goes out and kills another human being.

I'm sure as hell going to tell them their choice is a bad one... one that should be illegal... one whose consequences they deserve...

It's murder plain and simple. Murder should not be a choice.


----------



## isleta

Ok- I am compelled to quote just two other places in the book to help clarify feminism and pro-choice views.









Quote:

The cultural climate of any historical era can have profound effects on the overall emotional and physcial well-being of that era's people. It is estimated that in the 1840s half of all pregnancies ended in abortion. Currently, as women's power is rising, so is the anti-abortion rhetoric. Though no culture at any time in history has been a stranger to abortion, Carroll Smith-Rosenburg's research documents that abortion becomes a political issue only when there are 'significiant alternations in the balance of power between women and men, and of male heads of household over their traditional dependants.' At just such a time, these changes are reflected in laws concerning women's right to manage their own fertility.
I am living in a time when laws like this are passed!

Quote:

Kris Bercov, a therapist who offers abortion resolution counseling, has written a poignant booklet entitled "The Good Mother: An Abortion Parable." When she sent me a copy, Kris wrote, "The abortion experience has tremendous potential to either wond or to heal-depending on how it is handled and interpreted. As you well know, so many women go through this experience unconsciously-leaving their bodies the challenging(and sometimes dangerous) task of communicating the womens's unresolved feelings." Kris 's book is revolutionary specifically because it helps women feel their way through the experience-and thus heal it. It has been used effectively in several abortion clinics.
Abortion as a means of contraception will be necessary in this country for a long while to come, and I will support its availability. Still I look forward to the day when abortion is rare, when women and men in cooperation will concieve carefully, thoughtfully, and purposefully, and every child will be wanted and cared for.
Like the COOPERATION statement.

To me, this really is a informed look at feminism and the pro-choice movement. It is one thing to look at fantasy, it is another, sometimes much harder view to look at reality and address the issues, instead of putting blame and guilt on people.

BTW, I need to add she is an M.D.


----------



## isleta

Quote:

_Originally posted by Journey_
*Uhhh.... let's put this in simple terms...

A human plans on killing another human being or a human being goes out and kills another human being.

I'm sure as hell going to tell them their choice is a bad one... one that should be illegal... one whose consequences they deserve...

It's murder plain and simple. Murder should not be a choice.*
Abortion is not murder. It is a medical procedure that has constitutional law behind it. Amazing! A law is needed for a women's medical procedure










I hope you also addressed the rest of my post which deals with feminism and the pro-life stance. It is easy to let emotion and judgement cloud the real issues that affect women today.

Abortion has to be dealt with and I think in my quotes it talks about the power issues between men and women and how this affects laws and views of abortion. A definite feminist view point and I feel she does quite a good job explaining it.


----------



## Journey

I can't talk to somebody who can't admit the fact that an abortion is the killing of an unborn child... who thinks it's just "a medical procedure". Even to those who get an abortion, it isn't just "a medical procedure"


----------



## isleta

Again, I replied to the OP. I am not just focusing on one part of it. In my replies were thoughtful and informative information on the reality of abortion and the feminist aspect.

That is what this topic is about.

I was refering to the law and that is how it is stated.

It seems that you cannot deal with anything that is different than your view. Did anything in the quotes give you insight? Sure many people want to see abortion end and have a time when men and women cooperate with each other and raise the child. However, it is ignorant to believe this is going to happen soon and it needs to be dealt with whether some people feel it sould not be. I really wanted to discuss this and not have a shouting match.

I have known women who have had an abortion and those who chose to not end the pregnancies. I have listened to their stories and come away with my thoughts through their perspectives.

I know that it is an emotional issue for me, but not for all women and I have to not be judgemental and respect their decision just as I would want their respect for having a child while I was single.

I would just like it to be safe and legal to those who choose to have this done. Period.

It is not another person's place to put judgement on another IMO.


----------



## pamamidwife

I would happen to agree, Journey. I am pro-choice, yet I'm smart enough to realize that abortion means ending a life that has started.

I realized when I was explaining to my nine year old daughter what abortion meant that all the evasive words and phrases don't take away what it is.

Why are we, as pro-choice feminists, afraid to admit this?

Ultimately, I'd have more issues with abortion if our country didn't loathe women and children so much. But, alas, we have horrible birth control choices that mess with our bodies, and we do not support mothers and children in our world.

I do support abortion simply because we are a world where there is constant inequity in regards to gender. It's horrific in parts and old-fashioned in others. We also, as a government, cannot seem to honor children and mothers.


----------



## kama'aina mama

Quote:

_Originally posted by Journey_
*I can't talk to somebody who can't admit the fact that an abortion is the killing of an unborn child... who thinks it's just "a medical procedure". Even to those who get an abortion, it isn't just "a medical procedure"*
]

I can't believe that you won't admit that your belief on this matter is just that: A belief based on what your religion espouses. You do understand that not everyone shares your belief, don't you? And that for some (although certainly not all) it IS simply a medical procedure? That is one of the reasons many people resist your line of thinking. You are asking everyone to change their behavior to fall in line with your religious convictions. And that's not right.


----------



## isleta

Quote:

_Originally posted by pamamidwife_
*I would happen to agree, Journey. I am pro-choice, yet I'm smart enough to realize that abortion means ending a life that has started.

I realized when I was explaining to my nine year old daughter what abortion meant that all the evasive words and phrases don't take away what it is.

Why are we, as pro-choice feminists, afraid to admit this?

*
Another person who does not want to deal with me because of my opinion. How grand!

Pamamidwife I am not afraid at all, but

Do I think a woman should be charged with murder for having an abortion? NO.

I hope that clarifies my earlier post.

It seems that this is just going into another pro-life pro-choice thread. I am done with that there have been so many. That is why I was interested in this one.

Can you be pro-life and a feminist? I said no and actually went out and got information that I thought was relevent to the thread. However, again one aspect of my arguement is pulled out and the rest is forgotten.

I too care about the welfare of women. That is why I am posting so much!!! I realize that abortion is going to happen and I have to address that issue regardless of how I feel about it. That is why I believe in a women's right to choose. I don't want to live in a society where women can't make up their own choices without being put down or left with no options. I believe that feminism gives women the power to take command of their lives and make the choices they want to make, not what society deems is right.

That choice could be to end a pregnancy or it could be, like in my case, to choose to have a child even though I am a single mama.








Kama'aina mama


----------



## Bladestar5

Ok...this is where I get confused. A woman who wants a pregnancy and loses it in 4 weeks needs a d&c...she is hurt because she lost her baby. Meanwhile, a woman who has a perspectively healthy pregnancy gets an abortion, it is just a medical procedure, and that's that...








Makes NO sense to me.
The fact is, I believe in women's rights, but not that women should have rights above any other living human, be it in the womb or out.


----------



## anothermama

Quote:

_Originally posted by EFmom_
*Exactly, DaryLLL.

It's not derailing the issue at all--it is responding to a non-issue raised by the anti-choice movement. The anti-choice lobby works to throw one obstacle after another at women seeking to obtain safe and legal abortion. Pretending that women aren't informed about the risks associated with this particular medical procedure as opposed to any other medical procedure is bogus.*
the anti-life movement uses that as an excuse to keep women in the dark and therefore keep abortion as a political tool.

I've asked before...how many abortions have you had? how many have you sat in on. Women ARE NOT informed and you are subverting them by saying they ARE and that the issue of informed consent should be ignored.

I had no clue the feminist movement hated women so much. This is very eye opening for me.


----------



## anothermama

Quote:

_Originally posted by kama'aina mama_
*If we are attempting to have a respectful discussion that does not go off the rails and vanish... I think we all need to employ the common curtesy of using the names that each group has chosen for itself. If you are so fired up that you cannot simply use the terms pro-life and pro-choice in the interests of not unneccesarily offending those you would like to debate this with maybe you too emotional to participate in this discussion at this time.*
I just want to say you are totally right and I have only used the term "anti life" in response to posters who used the phrase "anti choice"....but I don't really mean it. I was just making a point (that I think was little lost...) and, as another poster said, I don't honestly believe that most people are anti life.


----------



## anothermama

Quote:

_Originally posted by isleta_
*Abortion is not murder. It is a medical procedure that has constitutional law behind it. Amazing! A law is needed for a women's medical procedure









I hope you also addressed the rest of my post which deals with feminism and the pro-life stance. It is easy to let emotion and judgement cloud the real issues that affect women today.

Abortion has to be dealt with and I think in my quotes it talks about the power issues between men and women and how this affects laws and views of abortion. A definite feminist view point and I feel she does quite a good job explaining it.*

See...this is the tricky part where I don't feel anyone can claim anything rightly or wrongly.

Someone made this point and it's a point I want to expand on and I want to say I've NEVER had any pro choice person address this:

The average woman goes in for an abortion between 5-9 weeks. This makes sense, it's early. It's about how long it would take to find out you were preg and then get the appointment and go in.

If you go in and say "I want an abortion" it will be explained in cold, clinical terms...."The mass is this size, the procedure will take this long...." etc etc.

They may get an ultrasound to say "it's in this location" etc etc.

Now lets say you go in at, lets pick the middle....7 weeks...and say "I'm keeping the baby"...well, then you get "OH! Well, the babies heart is beating and these nerves are developing and the brain has developed to this point........"

Get me?

You've got *something* with a beating heart and nerves.....you are clearing killing *something*....

If ya missed it...yeah, I'm pro life. I also don't belive abortion should be *illegal* I just think it's too easy to get with too little information out there.

But...either way, you just can't simply say "It's murder" or "It's not murder" because it's *not* that black and white.

Theres a reason why the SAME medical professionals treat the SAME pregnancy two different ways....it's because...IMO, well, maybe there is an element of killing something there. It just is hard to put that in a way that makes it ok sometimes.


----------



## Bladestar5

I am so confused now. I can't tell what position some of us take.


----------



## anothermama

Quote:

_Originally posted by isleta_
*
Do I think a woman should be charged with murder for having an abortion? NO.

I hope that clarifies my earlier post.








Kama'aina mama*
Honey...it seems like YOU are the one who can't handle seeing the nuances in other peoples statements.

Take a second and really think about what Pam said...and, you know....no one said that a woman who has an abortion should be charged with murder. Well...wait....Pam didn't say that at least.

I think she made a really eloquent point that pro choicers haven't been able to dispute with anything but insults.....you *are* ending a life. Sure, the life couldn't survive outside the womb at that point, and I will even admit that there are probably valid reasons for doing it sometimes.....but you've got some kind of being....a beating heart....developing nerves and brain.....so there is an ending of a life. And we aren't doing women any favors by hiding that from them. I think thats why so many people who dont get the eduation see abortion as birth control...because we keep telling them that its just another medical procedure...its just a lump of cells....when thats not the honest truth.

Anyways.....I don't mean that mean....I just wanted to add.


----------



## anothermama

Quote:

_Originally posted by Bladestar5_
*I am so confused now. I can't tell what position some of us take.














*
Blade....if you are refering my my plethora of posts...(this is what happens when I sleep in!!)

I'm pro life. I believe life begins at conception. I believe that abortion is killing a life.

That said....I've never been raped. I've never been sexually assaulted by my dad. I've never been in an abusive relationship. I think there are probably times when women should be able to, after careful consideration and education, get an abortion.

But I also think that they are too readily availible today. I think too many women use them as birth control. Too many couples use them as "back up". Too many kids get them and don't realize whats really happened to them till 10 or 20 years later. You can get them so fast in some areas that many people rush into them and regret them.

I personally hate that abortion is a political tool. I hate that it's part of an "agenda". It smacks of sexism to me that women are used like this in the political world. I think the medical establishment as a whole is very sexist and I think that this is part of it.

Bottom line...I'd never do it. I would encourage any friend not to do it. But I've also been there for women and girls and held their hand while they had it done and it's not my place to judge their choice...I just tried to make sure they really REALLY understood what was happening to them and then just was a shoulder to cry on. I think it's wrong, but I also think that there are times when maybe it needs to be done. I can't judge, I can only try to help women and hope that the situation gets better.


----------



## pamamidwife

I don't think the label of pro-life or pro-choice is as important as this dialogue. It's amazing the wisdom of the women here. I really am blown away by this thread!


----------



## pugmadmama

Quote:

_Originally posted by pamamidwife_
*... I am pro-choice, yet I'm smart enough to realize that abortion means ending a life that has started.
...*
So women who think that abortion is _not_ ending a life are just not as smart as you?

Quote:

_Originally posted by pamamidwife_
*...Why are we, as pro-choice feminists, afraid to admit this?...*
Because it's simply not true _for all women_.

I happen to believe that life begins at conception. But I can surely understand why other women think that something that cannot survive outside it's host is not a "life" in the way we all understand that word to mean.

I'm not afraid. I'm just not convinced that I'm smarter than other women whom I disagree with.


----------



## pugmadmama

Quote:

_Originally posted by Bladestar5_
*Ok...this is where I get confused. A woman who wants a pregnancy and loses it in 4 weeks needs a d&c...she is hurt because she lost her baby. Meanwhile, a woman who has a perspectively healthy pregnancy gets an abortion, it is just a medical procedure, and that's that...








...*
Do you understand the difference between consensual sex and rape? Do you understand the difference between voluntarily taking a drug vs. someone secretly slipping a drug into your drink? If you do, then you should be able to understand the difference between something a woman can control happening to her body and something completely out of her control happening to her.

By the way, some women who abort are also in pain at lossing their baby. And some aren't. You have to be willing to listen to individual women.


----------



## Journey

When abortion was illegal, there were exceptions, such as the case of rape. You can be for abortion being made illegal, and still be for allowing exceptions.


----------



## pugmadmama

Quote:

_Originally posted by anothermama_
*...I had no clue the feminist movement hated women so much. This is very eye opening for me.*
I just have to say how completely out-of-line and absurd this statement is.

Another poster said she thought women deserved to be shun and even _deserved to die_ if they sought out illegal abortions and other posters agreed with her. Yet a difference of opinion on how much information constitutes informed consent means that the entire feminist movement hates women???


----------



## anothermama

Quote:

_Originally posted by pugmadmama_
*I just have to say how completely out-of-line and absurd this statement is.

Another poster said she thought women deserved to be shun and even deserved to die if they sought out illegal abortions and other posters agreed with her. Yet a difference of opinion on how much information constitutes informed consent means that the entire feminist movement hates women???*
I can't respond to someone who doesn't address the entire issue, in context.


----------



## pugmadmama

Good grief, my point is that there is no context that can support the statement that you made:

*"I had no clue the feminist movement hated women so much"*

I think it is disingenuous to thrown out such an inflamatory statement at the end of a post and then pretend to continue to engage in respectful debate. And then to hide behind a _context_ arguement?! I expect that from politicans and shock jocks, not as part of respectful dialogue.

It seems out of character with the rest of what you've been writing but you're unwilling to retract or explain it leaves me wondering...


----------



## TiredX2

Quote:

When abortion was illegal, there were exceptions, such as the case of rape. You can be for abortion being made illegal, and still be for allowing exceptions.
I really don't think you can. Because *who* gets to make that decision that the abortion really is necessary? Obviously not the woman, correct. What do you have to do to qualify? What if the woman is unwilling to press charges? What if the rapist was a relative, even a husband? What medical risks must a woman be facing to be judged "okay" for an abortion? Does it have to be 75% likelihood she will die? How about 25%? What if she is only going to loose her ability to bear future children? What if it is only mental health? *This* view (exceptions) CANNOT, IMO, be reconciled with a feminist view.


----------



## candiland

Wow, this is incredibly eye-opening for me. I am neither pro-choice or pro-life... so reading through this has given me a lot to chew on....
I can say that in my view, "pro life feminist" makes a lot of sense to me. I personally believe that women are a step above men in a lot of ways, because we have the ability to carry souls, or life, or energy, or whatever you want to call it from one dimension of existence into another. I also believe that much of feminism strives to be "equal to a man" instead of trying to SURPASS patriarchal thought processes...... I, as a feminist, believe in re-creating our world, not just slaving away contentedly in the male-dominated one we currently reside in. I believe, as most mamas do here, that women should only listen to themselves...... their intuition....... which would lead to more normal birthing practices, more attachment parenting, more gentle discipline, more breastfeeding.... you get the idea.
I also think that BECAUSE women have the ability to be a step above the current patriarchal system we reside in, they should *ideally* be more empowered with their bodies and their sexuality. *Ideally*, women would understand that they and they alone hold the power to bring life into this world. Instead of saying "where's the man in all this?", we would realize the immense power we have and use it *very* wisely. It would certainly result in a more peaceful, non-violent world; one that would steer us in the direction of a more matriarchal way of life.
So in this sense, I can see how people think that feminism and pro-life go hand in hand. It's not necessarily 5,000 years of male control..... not for me, at least, because I shun organized religion, personally. I believe in Goddess-centered spirituality, but that's another topic altogether








ETA: Does anyone else here feel that too many people hold a view just b/c it aligns with the rest of their thinking? I think that on both sides - prolife and prochoice - there are a *lot* of sheep, so to speak. I'm not necessarily talking about anyone on this board..... but some people I've met IRL seem to just follow along instead of actually thinking things out for themselves.......







:


----------



## anothermama

Quote:

_Originally posted by TiredX2_
*I really don't think you can. Because *who* gets to make that decision that the abortion really is necessary? Obviously not the woman, correct. What do you have to do to qualify? What if the woman is unwilling to press charges? What if the rapist was a relative, even a husband? What medical risks must a woman be facing to be judged "okay" for an abortion? Does it have to be 75% likelihood she will die? How about 25%? What if she is only going to loose her ability to bear future children? What if it is only mental health? *This* view (exceptions) CANNOT, IMO, be reconciled with a feminist view.*
You have great points.

IMO, this is why it SHOULDNT be aligned with a political view.

I think restrictions need to be made on abortion. And I think that, while those are really tough issues you raise, it doesnt' mean we should abandon them because they may be too tough.

I don't believe ANY invasive medical procedure should be availible willy nilly, no questions asked, just because someone wants one. And those questions had to get answered about other issues that weren't as politically charged. It would be hard, but it could be done......

Maybe that would be an appropriate venue to head towards....defining who could have them, why, when, and what would govern that. AMA? Insurance? Government?


----------



## candiland

I also want to add that people's personal experiences shape their views, and it's important not to discount that fact.
My mother was a poor single woman with an 11 and 13 yo. when she accidentally got preggo with me. She went in to the abortion clinic, filled out the forms.... they took her into the back room, prepped her, and she - THANK GODDESS - freaked out and left. Sooooo many circles here on Earth would have gone unfinished... I feel like I've taught so many people so much, and I truly feel like a miracle just sitting here today. Even though she couldn't afford to have another child, she did!, and I turned out great! (Ha ha, so I'm partial here







)


----------



## anothermama

Quote:

_Originally posted by candiland_
*I also want to add that people's personal experiences shape their views, and it's important not to discount that fact.
My mother was a poor single woman with an 11 and 13 yo. when she accidentally got preggo with me. She went in to the abortion clinic, filled out the forms.... they took her into the back room, prepped her, and she - THANK GODDESS - freaked out and left. Sooooo many circles here on Earth would have gone unfinished... I feel like I've taught so many people so much, and I truly feel like a miracle just sitting here today. Even though she couldn't afford to have another child, she did!, and I turned out great! (Ha ha, so I'm partial here







)*
Great point...I have to wonder how many pro choicers were almost aborted??

How many pro lifers were almost aborted?

Me = pro life and darn near almost not here, but thanks to quick thinking on the part of my dad. my brother was almost aborted as well.


----------



## ekblad9

I have heard so many "pro life feminists" speak in the last year. I had no idea you could be both until then. I always knew I was "pro life" even before I knew why. Now I realize it's not just a matter of protecting the unborn baby but protecting the woman from a life of regret and upset. Even if you don't admit to it, I'm sure it stays with you forever. I had a baby when I was barely 18. I was unmarried and the "father" was physically abusive in many ways. I have been through much therepy and lots of pain over that issue. But at least I have my 12 year old son here with me. I don't have to deal with what could have been losing him as well.

You have to have your parents permission to get your ears pierced or to get stiches but not to get an abortion? That makes no sense at all.







:


----------



## Snowy Owl

Why don't those here that are so concerned with the murder of embryos focus on the numerous other medical/scientific procedures that involve growing, cloning, and destroying embryos indiscriminately for research, by the hundreds of thousands, in countries all over the world? Maybe that needs more attention and legislation? In fact in vitro fertilization involves the creation of 'excess' embryos that are often destroyed. Maybe IVF should be illegal.

In that light isn't it almost ridiculous to put so much energy into trying to take a basic right away from someone, because you've decided the embryo is an equal?

And as for the person who said the feminist movement hates women....ummmm..... how can anyone be expected to take that seriously?

I'm between ISPs right now so have not been around, but have just caught up on five pages of discussion. Some great things were said too, but it seems like the thread really distentigrated

It seems that no one really made a good point for why taking a legal, fundamental right away from women is in any way compatible with feminism. Just the same tired arguments that 'abortion is murder' etc. Yes, yes, it's murder. Yes, it's horrible and sad and of dubious morality. But that's not the question of the OP.

How thankful I am to live in a country where I don't feel my basic rights as a woman are threatened, where political candidates during elections don't proclaim their 'pro-choice' or 'pro-life' stances because it's not up for debate, there are more relevant things to discuss. It's not their business!!!!!


----------



## ekblad9

All those things that you mentioned, Snowy Owl, are a concern to me, for sure. I have been blessed with five babies and don't have the time to study and fight for all of them, however. Someday when my children are grown I hope to be able to. Abortion is a fundamental right? For who? The woman that chooses to have sex but not a baby, maybe, but not for the baby who is sucked out and then left to be picked apart by scientists or worse, boxed up and sent to a dock somewhere. I don't really think they find it to be a freedom at all. Just because they're smaller than we are doesn't mean we have the right to kill them. Hop on over to Pregnancy and Birth Loss and see what those mamas have to say about their babies that didn't make it past 12 weeks. I assure you they're not calling them embryos or tissue. They are mourning the loss of their babies. Or how about the want to be mamas that would give anything to adopt these babies that some are so willing to kill? I'm not saying you have to raise the child. Just give them a chance for a decent life, that's all. It would be so much more empowering to women if they could just embrace what their bodies are doing and love their babies.


----------



## Arduinna

Quote:

*And as for the person who said the feminist movement hates women....ummmm..... how can anyone be expected to take that seriously?*
I couldn't agree more!


----------



## anothermama

Quote:

_Originally posted by Snowy Owl_
*Why don't those here that are so concerned with the murder of embryos focus on the numerous other medical/scientific procedures that involve growing, cloning, and destroying embryos indiscriminately for research, by the hundreds of thousands, in countries all over the world? Maybe that needs more attention and legislation? In fact in vitro fertilization involves the creation of 'excess' embryos that are often destroyed. Maybe IVF should be illegal.

In that light isn't it almost ridiculous to put so much energy into trying to take a basic right away from someone, because you've decided the embryo is an equal?
*

Because thats not what this thread is about. Maybe you might want to start another thread about fetal research..????


----------



## anothermama

Quote:

_Originally posted by Arduinna_
*I couldn't agree more!*

MEMEMEMEMEMEME!
*raising hand*
I said it!!

It was in reply to a post, and it was in context with other things I said. I've yet to see anyone discredit the statement...just be kind of insulting. And thats ok....but how do you expect me to take YOU seriously when you can't actually argue the point in context with anything but insults??

(p.s....I dont mean YOU you...I mean the general you)


----------



## EFmom

Quote:

Hop on over to Pregnancy and Birth Loss and see what those mamas have to say about their babies that didn't make it past 12 weeks. I assure you they're not calling them embryos or tissue. They are mourning the loss of their babies.
This is another example of why the abortion decision should be up to the individual. I've had many miscarriages. At the time they happened I was trying to conceive and dh and I very much wanted a baby.

I never, ever felt like I lost an actual baby. Not for a minute. I felt exactly like I had lost an embryo or tissue. That embryo or tissue had, prior to the miscarriage, the potential to be a human life, but that's it. I was sad that the pregnancies didn't continue to develop, but I was not devastated. I did not mourn. My disappointment was nothing like what I would feel if I lost an actual child. I know other women with similar experiences.

Now, I agree that most of the women on Pregnancy and Loss are exactly as you describe. They do feel like they lost a baby. I am not minimizing their loss.

But clearly, where one person believes in life at conception, for many others, it is just not life at conception.


----------



## Snowy Owl

Quote:

_Originally posted by anothermama_
*Because thats not what this thread is about. Maybe you might want to start another thread about fetal research..????*
Actually, this thread isn't about religious views of when life begins. It's about how pro-life is compatible with feminism. My point about embryo research is in response to those who give the 'rights of the embryo' as an argument for why abortion should be illegal. I pointed out why that is illogical, and saying it should be in another thread is simply avoiding the issue. Maybe it was too good of a point?

Also, anothermama, if something you said was taken out of context, then please explain what you meant. I am all ears, but you haven't attempted to explain, so I don't understand what you meant.

Also, about miscarriage, I had one too. I know it hurts.
How is that the point???
Also, I agreee it would be empowering if women could embrace their pregnancies and love their babies and their ability to create life. I embrace mine.
Good for me, good for you, good for those who make that choice.
The big word here is 'IF'.


----------



## pugmadmama

Quote:

_Originally posted by ekblad7_
*...Hop on over to Pregnancy and Birth Loss and see what those mamas have to say about their babies that didn't make it past 12 weeks. I assure you they're not calling them embryos or tissue. They are mourning the loss of their babies. Or how about the want to be mamas that would give anything to adopt these babies that some are so willing to kill? ....*
Why would there be a need to "hop on over" to anywhere? I've suffered through several miscarriages, one in the middle of my second trimester and the rest before 12 weeks. Yes, I grieved (& still grieve) each of those babies, because that's what they were _to me_. Each of those pregnancies profoundly effected who I am as a person.

In the end, I was lucky enough to concieve and carry one child to term and so I have my wonderful 11 year old son. But I've not been able to concieve since then. I would love to have another baby or adopt.

However, and this is so important, I don't think _any_ woman should have to suffer through the physical hardship of pregnancy and emotional hardship of reliquenishing their child just so that I can get what I want.

In fact, infertility has made me more adamently pro-choice. I know what it's like to experience a loss of control over your reproductive life. I know what's it's like to get the wrong answer on the pregnancy test. I know what it's like to feel so betrayed by your own body and biology. I understand that feeling deep in my bones.

In my perfect world, there would be no abortion because women who didn't want to concieve wouldn't and the rest of us would be abundently blessed with pregnancies. But I don't live there. In this world, right now, at this time, I have to be pro-choice.


----------



## TiredX2

Pugmadmama---

Wow, that post really hit me! How insightful you are. I'm not sad, but
















Thanks for sharing your views. It added a whole 'nother demension to this debate for me


----------



## alsoSarah

Pugmadmama,

You so rock!


----------



## Arduinna

Quote:

_riginally posted by anothermama_
I said it!!

but how do you expect me to take YOU seriously when you can't actually argue the point in context with anything but insults??

[/B]
Yes, I'm well aware that you were the one that originally posted it.

As for the rest of your statement above, right back at ya.


----------



## Arduinna

Yes, Pugmama that is exactly how I feel too. Very well put.


----------



## anothermama

Quote:

_Originally posted by Arduinna_
*Yes, I'm well aware that you were the one that originally posted it.

As for the rest of your statement above, right back at ya.*
I have addressed points...I've quoted others in context....I've tried to understand their message....

I'm not sure about that "back atcha"....doesn't make sense.

This *seems* to be turning into a gang bang attack and I really don't want to see that so please, PM me if you really want to continue with what a horrible person I am....or if you actually want to talk too.


----------



## Arduinna

um, I never said you were a horrible person. But honestly your claim that prochoicers here aren't capable of having a discussion and are only lobbing insults just doesn't have a leg to stand on. And considering the many posts made by prolifers here calling people baby killers ect seems to supprt my right back at ya.

Just as you don't seem to take our arguments as sound, I feel the same way about yours.

And really I thought this thread was about how people can be feminists and pro life. Since you don't claim to be a feminist, I'm not sure how your able to make a credible argument here.


----------



## anothermama

Quote:

_Originally posted by Arduinna_
*um, I never said you were a horrible person. But honestly your claim that prochoicers here aren't capable of having a discussion and are only lobbing insults just doesn't have a leg to stand on. And considering the many posts made by prolifers here calling people baby killers ect seems to supprt my right back at ya.

Just as you don't seem to take our arguments as sound, I feel the same way about yours.

And really I thought this thread was about how people can be feminists and pro life. Since you don't claim to be a feminist, I'm not sure how your able to make a credible argument here.*
*sigh*

Ya didn't prove anything there.

Maybe prolifers made certain choices in their words....I didn't say anything about baby killers. Don't attibute their statements or attitudes to me.

You didn't address any of my arguments anyways so I supposed it doesn't matter.

And I guess I've been put in my place now haven't I. I don't consider myself a feminist so I'll go sit in my little corner and be quiet so the pro choicers can continue with the mutual admiration society meeting that was going on....I'm sorry I interupted.

eta: Wow! I just realized the answer to the original post has been found!!

A resounding NO! You CANNOT be pro life and a feminist because "true" feminists would never allow it. It doesn't fit the agenda.

Hrm.....well, at least that got cleared up..........


----------



## isleta

Quote:

_Originally posted by anothermama_
*Honey...it seems like YOU are the one who can't handle seeing the nuances in other peoples statements.

.
*

I can handle them and have respectfully responded. I did not say I was smarter or I am not going to deal with someone because of thier views. That was said to me. It seems that insults are more important here than the topic of pro-life and feminism.

Pugmagmama-I must concur-you rock!


----------



## pugmadmama

Tiredx2, alsosarah, Arduinna and isleta, Thank you for your kind words. I very much appreciate them.


----------



## Arduinna

Quote:

_Originally posted by anothermama_
[BYou didn't address any of my arguments anyways so I supposed it doesn't matter.

[/B]
What arguments, I haven't seen any just rhetoric and wishful thinking?? like the completely unfounded idea that it doesn't matter if abortion is legal because it will still be performed anyway??

honestly, I haven't seen any logic in most of what has been posted.


----------



## isleta

Quote:

_Originally posted by Arduinna_
*??

honestly, I haven't seen any logic in most of what has been posted.*
Well, I did *try* and use logic in my first intial posts









Damn wishful thinking


----------



## Arduinna

Quote:

_Originally posted by isleta_
*Well, I did *try* and use logic in my first intial posts









Damn wishful thinking







*
did you think I was referring to you????

nope


----------



## ekblad9

Call it what you like, tissue, embryo, whatever. The fact is that it's a baby. I'm sorry for your losses, pugmadmama, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. However, I know when life begins. There isn't much more to say. It doesn't empower women to allow them to be murders and get away with it. Someday the truth will come out but not in this culture of death.

May the peace and love of God be with you all.


----------



## isleta

OK Arduinna







Just checkin'


----------



## Bladestar5

Well, ladies....I am tired of watching this conversation go around in circles, like a puppy chasing his tail. Plus my inbox is getting rather full. I don't feel up to talking about this matter any more at the moment. Maybe I'll check in once in a while. Have fun.


----------



## Arduinna

Quote:

_Originally posted by anothermama_
[BAnd I guess I've been put in my place now haven't I. I don't consider myself a feminist so I'll go sit in my little corner and be quiet so the pro choicers can continue with the mutual admiration society meeting that was going on....I'm sorry I interupted.

eta: Wow! I just realized the answer to the original post has been found!!

A resounding NO! You CANNOT be pro life and a feminist because "true" feminists would never allow it. It doesn't fit the agenda.

Hrm.....well, at least that got cleared up.......... [/B]
Considering how many times you've posted about how your not a feminist and how much you despise feminists and feminism I'm not sure what your upset about?? Surely you aren't upset that some may agree with you that you aren't a feminist??

Post all you want it's an open board, it looks like your looking for the mutual admiration from from those that hate feminists as much as you do. Just don't expect it from us that are feminists.


----------



## candiland

I think that anothermama's points got lost because this has turned into an extremely long thread.
She said she is NOT a feminist IF feminism means that you have to stick to a set list of guidelines that does not allow each individual woman to decide exactly what feminism means *to her*. At least, that's the gist I got from all this. Again, some people believe that a true feminist rises *above* this thinking and does not believe that abortions on demand is the best thing for women and society, in general. I think women can define themselves any way they darn well please.... labels can be ugly things when they interfere with one's ability to think for themselves and express their views openly and honestly. I have a right to call myself a feminist even if I disagree with it's history and a lot of what it's about today....... it means totally different things to different people, and as *feminists*, we have to respect that.


----------



## mcimom

anothermama -







I think YOU ROCK mama









now get outta here and quit







you're gonna get a headache





























leighanne, card carrying member of the prolife mutual admiration society


----------



## isleta

Quote:

_Originally posted by mcimom_
*





























leighanne, card carrying member of the prolife mutual admiration society





















*

Gald to hear it! I hope one day we can all be a part of the "women's" mutual admiration society


----------



## spatulagirl

Phew! What a loooong thread to get through.

It's sad we can't seem to talk about this without getting upset, heated or resort to calling names. Abortion, as well all know, often brings out the fire in people!

Can you be a feminist and be pro-life? Sure! Everyone defines feminism in a different way. There are conservative feminists and liberal feminists and everything in between.

I am pro-choice but pro-life for myself. I am a feminist. I have a good friend who is a feminist and pro-life. We both wish that there were no need for abortions but like pugmadmama said, I see the need for them for some people. BTW pugmadmama, thank you for sharing your stoory. You are an amazing woman!

What I question the most is what we lose as feminists if abortion were made illegal. What solutions would we come up with? Would the world be a better place for us as women? Seriously? If so how? When it comes to abortion (for some people) you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. You don't really get full support with whatever decision you make and you could be left with regrets with whichever choice you end up making. It foesn't seem right, either way. As a feminist it concerns me that it always falls on the woman. So as feminists, whether pro-choice or pro-life, how could we work together to eliminate this shame, regret, whatever that seems to go hand-in-hand with unwanted pregnancy and abortion.

And what would happen with women who didn't take care of themselves when forced to go through with a pregnancy. Would we then force them to eat, to not drink, to not smoke or do drugs or endanger themselves? Forcing them to take care of themselves and the baby? What would we do then? I struggle with that idea, as a feminist and human being. Sure... maybe they shouldn't have had sex. They shouldn't have gotten pregnant. But they did. So what is more empowering for them? For some it would be choosing to carry the baby to term. Others don't believe that. Who are we to decide for them? Can a feminist force someone to do something they don't want to do? Do we have that right? Not if we really define ourselves as a feminist.

Lots of questions, no easy answers.


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## TigerTail

just saw this... check out my sig, you don't get more feminist then her. it took awhile for abortion to get attached to the fight for women's rights. suse


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## RubyV

I am a feminist, and unashamedly pro choice.

I believe in abortion on demand and without apology.

I have been pg twice, both unplanned. The first pg (during my first marriage) ended in a miscarriage 2 days before my scheduled abortion. I am grateful every day that that pregnancy ended.

Fast forward 5 years. An unplanned pregnancy with my dh (we weren't married yet). I decided to stay pg. It has a very very hard pregnancy, and labor and delivery. My wanting that pregnancy was the only thing that helped me keep my sanity. I would never force what I went thorugh on anyone.

I believe that one cannot be pro life and feminist. Those women who are personally pro life but politically pro choice are more rightly called pro choice.

A woman who is really wants to terminate a pregnancy and is desparate will often mutalate herself in the process if she has no safe access to abortion. what is feminist about wanting to send women back to the stone age?


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## Paxetbonum

Pro- life and feminist.

and proud.


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## Peppermint

Ok, well, I know this thread was buried a bit, but I had been wanting to pipe in, and didn't get a chance until now(newborn here). I will admit that I have not read all the responses, and don't wish to debate abortion (again







: ), but thought I would stick to answering the OP









At my high school graduation during the awards part of the ceremony, one of the awards was called "The Award For Feminism", as they described the award, I joked with the kid next to me about who I thought would get it, there was one girl in my class who was today's version of feminist. Imagine my shock when my name was read







I did not know what to think about that, b/c to me feminist=pro-choice, which simply put- I am not (at least not on the issue of abortion







). I talked to the woman who gave the award in her mothers name, and she explained that it was my way of always standing up for myself, and for anyone else who needed someone to stand up for them, that made me a feminist in her eyes, she knew I was pro-life, she was pro-choice, she chose me anyway
















OK, now the point I really wanted to make







(and sorry if someone has already pointed this out). If being pro-life makes one "not a feminist" than the following women were not feminists:
~Susan B. Anthony
(in her publication The Revolution)-"Guilty? Yes. No matter what the motive, love of ease, or a desire to save from suffering the unborn innocent, the woman is awfully guilty who commits the deed. It will burden her conscience in life, it will burden her soul in death; But oh, thrice guilty is he who drove her to the desperation which impelled her to the crime!"

~Elizabeth Cady Stanton
"When we consider that women are treated as property, it is degrading to women that we should treat our children as property to be disposed of as we see fit."

~Mattie Brinkerhoff
"When a man steals to satisfy hunger, we may safely conclude that there is something wrong in society - so when a woman destroys the life of her unborn child, it is an evidence that either by education or circumstances she has been greatly wronged."

~Victoria Woodhull (the first female presidential candidate)
"Every woman knows that if she were free, she would never bear an unwished-for child, nor think of murdering one before its birth."

~Sarah Norton
"Child murderers practice their profession without let or hindrance, and open infant butcheries unquestioned...Is there no remedy for all this ante-natal child murder?...Perhaps there will come a time when...an unmarried mother will not be despised because of her motherhood...and when the right of the unborn to be born will not be denied or interfered with."

~Matilda Gage
"[This] subject lies deeper down in woman's wrongs than any other...I hesitate not to assert that most of [the responsibility for] this crime lies at the door of the male sex."

***interesting to me that women today think it is men who are all against abortion, I, being in the pro-life movement, know full well that the vast majority of pro-life activists (if you call us such) are women***

~Alice Paul (author of the original ERA)
"Abortion is the ultimate exploitation of women."

So- if these women were feminists (which I believe they were), than so am I


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## spero

Me too!









Awesome quotes, Patty.


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## kerikadi

Very nice Patty







Thank You!

Keri


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## doulamomvicki

Right on Patty!!!


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## Peppermint

: waiting for the other shoe to drop


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## pugmadmama

Quote:

_Originally posted by jess7396_
*...interesting to me that women today think it is men who are all against abortion, I, being in the pro-life movement, know full well that the vast majority of pro-life activists (if you call us such) are women...*
President Bush signs so-called "Partial Birth" Abortion Ban


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## Peppermint

Fascinating!







: However, believe it or not, the pro-life movement is not just about politics in the USA. The real people who are working for it -not simply looking at the politicians (who by the way the majority of pro-choice politicians are also men







) are women







but, I guess you'd have to BE IN the movement to know that, so I understand your confusion.


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## ameliabedelia

Well said Patty, I agree with you 100% (as usual).

I have also done some work in the pro-life movement, and from my experience, I would say almost 90% of the people I knew were female. I also think that most active pro-lifers are female.


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## Peppermint

Thanks Amelia- I venture to guess that if we polled all the pro-lifers on the board, they could all reiterate the point of most activist pro-lifers being women- but I don't think that's necessary- they'll believe you and me


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## isleta

Quote:

_Originally posted by jess7396_
*







: waiting for the other shoe to drop







*
You know I think that it is wonderful that this has become a more positive discussion.

I am of course the "other shoe" and believe that if anyone wants to be pro-life for themselves that is fine. However, I have a problem with putting one's will or beliefs on another.

I also am looking out for women's welfare, which means access to safe and clean abortion as an option-not the only answer.
project cuddle

Abandonment is a real issue that effects a woman and her child.

Pugmadmama-Good picture, mostly, I mean all male politicians.

Most rally's I have attended men are usually 50% or more in attendence for pro-life. Men also it seems are more outspoken and resort to violence more than women. Maybe this is why they are seen more often than women.

I guess it's my turn for the shoe thing~~~~~~~~


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## Peppermint

Well, I agree there is a lot to be done on this issue, but this thread was about whether or not one can be pro-life and feminist, have you any point on that, other than the "rallies" you have been to have more men than women? I am curious about what pro-life rallies you have attended. Of course, IMO, the pro-life movement is not really about who stands around with pickett signs. I, and other pro-lifers here, are working for CPCs, helping women in crisis pregnancies to get the support and services that they need, counseling women who have been through abortion and are not dealing well with their experience, etc. If we judge any movement simply by those who are shown on the news, we don't get a clear picture, IME.

Does anyone feel that all the women I quoted previously were not feminists? As, that is the topic to be discussed here, pro-life and feminism together


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## ameliabedelia

Quote:

Men also it seems are more outspoken and resort to violence more than women
I just wanted to say that violence is NEVER part of the pro-life movment. Those who resort to violence are NOT pro-life (they may think they are, but they aren't) and the pro-life movement as a whole is adamantely opposed to the use of violence.


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## Snowy Owl

Quote:

_Originally posted by jess7396_
*
Does anyone feel that all the women I quoted previously were not feminists? As, that is the topic to be discussed here, pro-life and feminism together







*
This site:
http://www.feministsforlife.org/history/foremoth.htm

Yet another site that contains that list of anti-abortion quotes. I certainly would not say that the women quoted were not feminists, many of them were suffragettes. In fact, I could probably agree with the bulk of what was quoted.
I personally do not want to tell someone that considers themselves a feminist that they are not. But I can still uphold my belief that advocating to illegalize abortion is most certainly at odds with feminism. The Feminists for life are really concerned with only one thing... the anti-abortion agenda. So they are not particularly feminist, just pro-life. But I support their initiatives to reduce the need for abortion by improving conditions for women.
I choose to use the Feminists for life site as an example because they are one of the more articualte and together of the groups that I found. Do a Google of 'pro-life feminist' and you will come up with a lot of fringe, beat-you-on-the-head-with-a-bible, fanatical sites. Which leads to what I want to look at next:

A self-proclaimed pro-life feminist group called 'Real Women' makes the following mission statements:

Quote:

to foster and promote the family as the basic unit of society; to defend principals which uphold the Judeo-Christian view of traditional marriage and family and to undertake or facilitate research into areas which impinge on the well-being of the family.

And:

to support the right to life of all innocent individuals from conception to natural death.
http://www.getset.com/realwomen/

The fact is, the whole anti-choice movement seems to stem primarily from specific religious ideology that, quite frankly, a lot of us do not share.
Many of these site cite the evils of gay marriage and abortion in the same sentence and condemn the seperation of church and state.
Sorry...that's a HUGE step backward, and illegalizing abortion is inextricably tied up in all that. It would most surely be a step backwards for women. In other words, not particularly feminist.

Quote:

Pro-life feminists respect ALL human life, and they do not place their morality on people - including the unborn - by deciding who should live and who should die. Some people call pro-life feminists "anti-choice" - well, pro-life feminists *are* anti-choice, when it comes to abortion.
from http://www.gargaro.com/lifefem.html

And this statement is extremly contradictory and hypocritical.

That is what the whole pro-life movement is about...they decide who should live, for other people, when it is simply not their business.

Well, I have respect for all human life, including the unborn, too. And I do think that a lot of the division among women over this matter is uneccessary.
Something on a very religious pro-life site that I quite agreed with:

Quote:

"[The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act] brings me back, kicking and screaming, to the subject of abortion. I don't want to write about this. Like most Americans I want the abortion debate to end. I want abortion to be safe and rare.
Over the years, I have rejoiced at sonograms and picked names for what we call a baby when it's wanted and a fetus when it isn't.
Behind [the partial-birth abortion ban] is simply a mistrust of women as moral decision-makers.
This should be a wake-up call to all young women, because it's their health at risk, their role as moral decision-makers disparaged."

--Ellen Goodman in the Boston Globe ("Out of the picture on the abortion ban," 11/13/2003)
We can be the moral decision makers for ourselves! If you are trying to make that decision for me, then you are an adversary to my rights as a woman.


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## Snowy Owl

I wanted to clarify one thing about all this, and all that I just said....I am not really into labels..I don't think of myself as 'a feminist' or 'pro-choice' or 'pro-life'
or 'an environmentalist' or 'an agnostic' or 'an AP mama' or 'a discussion board addict' (well, maybe the last category does apply).
Though many of my perspectives and beliefs and actions fall into those categories.

So when I say that advocating against choice goes against what feminism is about, that is not saying someone can't call themselves pro-life and also feminist. One label doesn't cancel out another. You can drive a gas-guzzling hummer and be an environmental activist...but driving the hummer isn't what makes you the activist.









Activism that improves conditions for women and reduces the 'need' for abortion is progressive and it's common ground the pro-life and anti-choice can work together on. Since abortion is already legal, it's a waste of time always fighting to illegalize it again. It doesn't help anyone, least of all the unborn children who's lives you want to protect.
For women to work together would be the most beneficial to the feminist cause!


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## pugmadmama

Quote:

_Originally posted by jess7396_
*...Does anyone feel that all the women I quoted previously were not feminists? As, that is the topic to be discussed here, pro-life and feminism together







*
I believe all the women you quoted were feminists. However, it's difficult for me to tell if they were against abortion _personally_ or as a matter of law. I also think they were products of their time, to a certain degree.

As I've said, I think it is entirely possible to think abortion is wrong, to work to reduce it's need, etc. and be a feminist. But when women advocate for laws governing other women's bodies? That's when the waters get muddy, for me.


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## isleta

Quote:

_Originally posted by jess7396_
*Well, I agree there is a lot to be done on this issue, but this thread was about whether or not one can be pro-life and feminist, have you any point on that, other than the "rallies" you have been to have more men than women? I am curious about what pro-life rallies you have attended. Of course, IMO, the pro-life movement is not really about who stands around with pickett signs. I, and other pro-lifers here, are working for CPCs, helping women in crisis pregnancies to get the support and services that they need, counseling women who have been through abortion and are not dealing well with their experience, etc. If we judge any movement simply by those who are shown on the news, we don't get a clear picture, IME.

*
Might be slightly ot but want to address the ??'s posted for me:

You know I am glad there was questions among your assumptions that I was ignorant on this subject.

This is a long thread and someone posted that pro-chioce women really don't care for women or their babies and I was replying. I did not have time to go back an quote it. That is why I posted what I did.

I attend rallies in my hometown and at federal buidings and clinics. I live in a very conservative area and deal with many pro-life people due to my activism for choice. And have found many men at these places, as well as, passing out information.

I do feel that the pro-life movement involves picket signs and also trucks who go on our freeways with pictures on the side.

I don't have cable television so I can't see the media images. Except in the newspaper. However, I do know that not all pro-life people are violent.
I also work for organizations which I posted above and many there are pro-life and I also have been at places that counsel women.

Hope that answers your ??

I also stated the same as snowy owl and pugmadmama in regards to laws "governing women's bodies"

I have been active in this thread and I don't want to be redundant in my posts. That is why I only addressed what I did because the rest has already been said.


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## Peppermint

I am sorry Isleta that you thought I assumed you ignorant of the subject, I simply am quite curious how the rallies you have been to are so drastically different from anything I have seen- I venture it is b/c you are seeing the more fringe of the movement, the groups I march with carry signs of preborn LIVE babies, not aborted fetuses. I guess you are seeing a different side. And I agree with Amelia that any violent people are NOT pro-life, pro-lifers I know are quite a different group than what it sounds like you have experienced

I guess in the end it comes down to the abortion issue in general. If one sees the issue as a "women's right to control her own body", of course they would not see pro-lifers as feminist, but, for us it's about human beings (fetuses, babies, whatever term one chooses) to live, and allowing and believing that life is a right to preborn humans as it is to born humans- so we have see no contradiction with feminism. I see why each side feels the way they do on this one.

Still, I've been thinking of what my senior member title should be, and pro-life feminist sounds just about right


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## ameliabedelia

Pro-Life Feminist sounds like a GREAT name for you!! Cool!


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