# GD isn't working and I'm fed up



## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I can't take ds1's attitude anymore. We have been kind, gentle, patient, loving and have responded to his needs for attention and affection at all times. He is mean to his little brother, and he is rude to me and dh. He is so rude that I find myself wanting to smack him. I've never hit anybody in my life. I talk with him, I explain to him. Everything I ask him is met with "I don't know." I have tried to involve him in problem solving, but his answer is always "I don't know." I try to talk with him and he tells me to get away, tells me I'm being rude, yells at me, calls me stupid. He throws things when he's angry, will walk by ds2 and knock him over, will scream at the top of his lungs after we've told him it hurts our ears.

Dh would have been beaten senseless if he's spoken to his parents like this. And you know what? Dh is a wonderful, loving, compassionate, sensitive person, and he has a great relationship with his parents. I would never have seen the light of day or had a single toy left if I had spoken to my parents this way. And you know what? I am a loving, compassionate, sensitive person and have a wonderful relationship with my parents.

I just can't stand it anymore. I'm not capable of ignoring it. And I totally disagree with this approach anyway. I absolutely disagree that an almost 5yo should tell you that you're stupid and to get away from him when you explain for the fiftieth time that day not to grab from his younger brother. I was at a friend's house not long ago, and she unschools/very much GD's her children. Her 8yo walked into the kitchen and asked for a cheese sandwich. She explained that they were out of cheese, but she'd be happy to fix her a different sandwich. Her 8yo yelled at her, threw a little fit, and all the while the mom just stood there. Then when her dd finished, the mom made her a sandwich and sent her on her way. I do not want a child who thinks it is okay to act that way.

So I guess maybe I need to find another discussion group, because I am obviously a GD failure or non believer or whatever, but so far, it is just not working for me. I think I need a Gentle Punishment board, even though the idea of it makes me sick. This is not the way I wanted to parent. I really believed in GD, and I really believed that having showing ds respect and kindness since the day he was born would result in a respectful, kind person. But something's got to change around here.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Of course as soon as I write this I turn around and he is playing with his little brother as sweetly as could be. It's like Jekyll and Hyde around here.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

You are not a gd failure, or a failure of any kind.
It seems like some kids need limits that are more clear, talking a lot can be too much for them, too many choices is overwhelming, ignoring a behavior doesn't give them enough information about their behavior or other ways of behaving that are more effective or how their behavior affects others. I liked this article that has been posted here before, sort of about expanding the definition of positive parenting-not to include punishment, but to include being more firm and clear:

http://morejo.blog-city.com/being_a_hard_ass_mom.htm

Oh, and Jekyll and Hyde live here too. You are not alone.


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## angela&avery (May 30, 2002)

Hi , first of all







...

Second of all ..... I SO HEAR YOU!!!!!









I understand just how you feel... and you know what??
I DONT think GD works all the time......

And, you are right..... you shouldnt have to listen to your child talk to you like that....

I, personally, have to draw the line at disrespect. I cant stand it and wont be treated like that by my child. Its just.not.okay.

As far as being GD..... you are. You can still insist (IMO) on respectfull talk and behavior and be GD. You can be firm without hitting or even yelling. You change your tone, etc etc.

I dont think GD is a certain set of rules of how to parent.... personally it means treating your child with respect, not yelling, namecalling, hitting, etc. But to me, it doesnt mean I cant be firm and it doesnt mean i cant enforce a time out or time in their own room for it. That may be a bit coercive... its not something I want to do for every little thing... but rudess and disrespect, to me, is where i draw the line....that may need to be so for you as well. I dont think there is anything wrong with that.


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## Susan Kunkel (Jul 13, 2005)

I beleive that you can be gentle and set firm limits also.In my house we speak respectfully to our sons and each other. We model how we want to be spoken to. When my 4 year old barks out orders to me I model how I want to be talked to. He was yelling about lunch .I gave him a couple of choices he complained about both .He was then told to make his own lunch. I got out a plate then he made his own lunch. We had a happy peaceful lunch. Push ing down little brother resulted in having to show him an act of kindness or time out.
He choose to sing a song to his brother. I know many will disagree but you can take things away and still be loving gentle parent.
Susan


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## Nurturing Mama (Nov 11, 2003)

I'm so sorry to hear that you're going through this. You're not a GD failure...it's just really, really difficult sometimes. I don't know if you're looking for advice or just needing to vent, so if you don't want advice, stop reading here...

To me, "bad" behavior indicates a child who is feeling bad. Have you been able to identify why he may being feeling bad, and needing to act out? Food allergies? Stress?

One thing that I do when my son is screaming at me and being rude is to tell him that I don't like to be treated that way AND give him more appropriate ways to express himself. For example, if my son called me stupid, I would say something like, "I can see that you're angry with me, but it's not okay to call me stupid. You can say you're angry, instead." I know coming from a punitive childhood myself that this seems really weak, but I think it is important to say it because it does register somewhere in their minds, even if they keep calling you stupid indefinitely.

Another "tool" I use is saying, "Try again." If my son walks up to me and says, "Mama, get me a drink!" I say "try again," and if he really wants a drink, he'll ask more politely. That's what I would have done in your friend's position, after the daughter finished yelling. IMO if your friend just stood there while her daughter yelled at her, and then made the sandwich, that isn't gentle discipline, it's permissive. Gentle discipline isn't allowing our kids to walk all over us, it's about guiding them. There is no way I would make a sandwich for someone who just screamed at me. (Come to think of it, when I was 8, I was making my own sandwiches.) If that example is typical of your friend's interactions with her daughter, then I'm not sure that what she's practicing is gentle discipline at all.

You may have already tried these things, but I couldn't read your post without offering help. I hope this gets easier for you. I know it's hard to put so much effort into raising children, only to have them treat you like crap.

Carrie


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## angela&avery (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*







You are not a gd failure, or a failure of any kind.
It seems like some kids need limits that are more clear, talking a lot can be too much for them, too many choices is overwhelming, ignoring a behavior doesn't give them enough information about their behavior or other ways of behaving that are more effective or how their behavior affects others. I liked this article that has been posted here before, sort of about expanding the definition of positive parenting-not to include punishment, but to include being more firm and clear:

http://morejo.blog-city.com/being_a_hard_ass_mom.htm

Oh, and Jekyll and Hyde live here too. You are not alone.

sledg, I love you, as always!!! what a great article... it spoke to me....


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Oh, geeze. I know where you are coming from. I SO know where you are coming from.

My BIL/SIL reprimand their children constantly. 95% of the time, I am not even sure why. It's just . . ."Mary. Mary! MARY!" But, guess what? "Mary" is one of the sweetest children I've ever met. So kind to my DD, so smart, so funny. And polite!

I keep asking DH where we went wrong. We do not seek a complacent, obedient child, but I can do without the screaming and demandingness from her.


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## angela&avery (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nurturing Mama*
Another "tool" I use is saying, "Try again." If my son walks up to me and says, "Mama, get me a drink!" I say "try again," and if he really wants a drink, he'll ask more politely.
Carrie

ya that.... i usually say "Excuse me? I dont think I heard you correctly.."


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## Yoshua (Jan 5, 2006)

to me GD is not physically hurting your child or giving them over the top punishments.

I know that doesnt go with alot of the bored users, but if a child throws food and he is of an age to understand that normal people do not throw food, i do not think it is unacceptable to expect that child to pick the food up after himself.

I am not a 'big' believer in time outs, but when someone is causing physical harm to others and refuses to curb the behavior (this includes animals) I have no problem putting said child on a time out, 1 minute per year of life.

You may ask why? well, I believe in real world consequences and I also expect my children to obey and respect the law.... if you hurt someone in real life, you get put on a time out for alot longer than 20 minutes if you are 20 years old.

You can adjust yoru GD thinking, you don't NEED to be ok with allowing a child the run of the house/farm/garage/pets/siblings. There are limits in life, and to me, a child without limits won't understand that later.

I give respect to everyones own personal way of parenting, which includes HARDCORE GD that alot of the moms around here use, it is awesome when it works. But everyone is different, children included, and some children require more structure than others.

Modify, you don't have to do what doesn't work for ya.

/support


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Oceanbaby,

I am sorry you are having such a hard time. I am going to use the example you gave of your friend to explain how I would GD this situation while still being a tough parent.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
I was at a friend's house not long ago, and she unschools/very much GD's her children. Her 8yo walked into the kitchen and asked for a cheese sandwich. She explained that they were out of cheese, but she'd be happy to fix her a different sandwich. Her 8yo yelled at her, threw a little fit, and all the while the mom just stood there. Then when her dd finished, the mom made her a sandwich and sent her on her way. I do not want a child who thinks it is okay to act that way.


I would have said in a *quiet but very firm* voice:

"Do not yell at me Ellie. That is very, very rude. I do not like being talked to that way and I expect you not to do it again. Here is a sandwhich for you."

So... I set a firm limit (no rude talking). I conveyed that the behavior was in no way ok. I conveyed that I expected that it would not happen again.

*This is why my GD approach was different than your friend. I did not ignore the behavior and I made it clear it was not OK.*

(I might wait until a more neutral time witha younger child or with a child whom I was asking to do something and that is what caused the fit).

What I did not do was punish. I did not refuse the sandwich or do anything else. That is why IMHO my approach is GD.

GD does not mean you don't set limits. It is more about how to enforce those limits.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

First of all the hugest hugs to you!

The behavior of my oldest child also has me deeply questioning and challenging my core beliefs on how to raise/discipline children.
I still believe in GD.
But I think I will be a firmer GD mama with my youngest than with my oldest.
My 13 year old is the "exception that proves the rule" I guess.
Because treathign her with respect has not earned her respect. She is extremely disrespectful to adults unless they do what she wants. (treat her like an equal). Treating her with kindness has not taught her to be kind.
Always giving reasons and explaining everything and avoiding being arbitrary has not taught her that Mom always has her best interests in heart and is to be trusted. It has not "given her nothing to rebel against".
Keeping open lines of communication and making sure no topic is "taboo" has not encouraged open communication about important things and prevented lying and deceit. SO sometimes, seeing these things in my oldest child, it makes me wonder if they didnt have it right in the olden days after all.
But then I realize that, temptation aside, and the desire to have well behaved children aside, it just isnt in me to be a firm authoritarian type.

But you can draw a firm line and still be gentle. I am still learning.
Perhaps I will have that balancing act mastered by the time my youngest is 18!
Hang in there.
There are quite a few of us who want to be gentle and STILL expect reasonably good behavior and respect from our children.


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## Jish (Dec 12, 2001)

Oceanbaby, I know how you feel. I think you have to be realistic in what will work for you. If what you are doing now isn't working, if you are unhappy or if others in your family are unhappy, then it's time to make some changes. That's where we are in my family. We needed to reexamine what we were doing and make a new plan. I didn't change my entire philosophy, I am still GD though I'm not of the "non-coersive" sect. We are just revising what we expect and working on ways to ensure that we are working as a family unit to make a happy family.

I was tired of having to do everything in the house when my kids are perfectly capable of helping out in keeping things clean and running smoothly. However, after trying other things to get them to help and being met with whines and complaints when we explain what we want them to do and why we want them to help, we have decided to tie part of their allowance to their jobs. I sat down with them and they came up with ideas of how they can help around the house. We designed a chart of who will be responsible for which jobs everyday and what is expected with each job for it to be considered "done." It is now right there in front of them and they are doing a great job of taking care of things everyday. They haven't even asked about the money yet, but they are happy to see the things they've done marked off everyday.

Is this coersive? Sure, but I still consider it to be "gentle." It's their choice to decide whether to do the chore or not, but they know the consequence if they don't. If I were assigning random consequences or punishments when things weren't done and they didn't know what to expect, I would not consider that to be good discipline. I think that they need to be responsible for their own behavior, and make choices on how to behave, realizing that certain behaviors will elicit certain responses/consequences. From there, they have the choice of what to do, or how to behave. For instance, if your ds knocks over your youngest, perhaps that means that he needs to take a break in his bedroom for X amount of time. As long as you make this clear ahead of time and are consistent with it, then he knows that if he does the behavior and knocks over his sibling, he will have to take a break in his room. You choose the action, you choose the consequence. Adults live with this type of thinking everyday. I may choose to break the law and run a red light, but I know that the resulting consequence is that I might get pulled over and get a ticket. To me an expensive ticket isn't worth it. Driving would be a lot safer if the consequences were consistent and few people would run red lights if they were sure that they would be pulled over everytime. We would all learn pretty quickly not to do the undesired behavior.

I don't find this to be ungentle, as long as I'm compassionate and loving when enforcing the consequences, life runs smoothly and everyone in our family is happier. Our home is much more fun when we all know what is expected of us, consequences or not.


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## Threefold (Nov 27, 2001)

Not much time, but I have moments when I write entreis like this in my journal!
Several wise friends pointed out last spring that it semed like my ds was crying out for limits and clear boundaries. So, we've set them. I try to be clear and firm, but not coercive and punative about it, and most of the time I'm sucessful. But its all a process and he and I both make mistakes along the way. Some maturity on his part, and clear expectations have helped us alot. Much thanks to this forum and Hold on to Your Kids.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I can't thank you all enough for your replies. It is really what I needed to hear today. I've got some serious thinking to do, and dh and I need to talk about things.

I know for sure we will be taking a break from the tv. I have been noticing a direct correlation between watching tv and acting badly.

So for those of you who don't put up with the rude backtalk - what exactly do you do? I say to ds the things already mentioned - you can be angry but you may not call me stupid, excuse me, what did you say, etc. But he just continues on. If I leave the room he will follow me around yelling at me to listen to him. I say I'll listen to him when he stops yelling at me, but he just says I'm being rude, or just yells more. I have picked him up before and brought him into his/our room, but he certainly doesn't stay there.


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## johub (Feb 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
I can't thank you all enough for your replies. It is really what I needed to hear today. I've got some serious thinking to do, and dh and I need to talk about things.

I know for sure we will be taking a break from the tv. I have been noticing a direct correlation between watching tv and acting badly.

So for those of you who don't put up with the rude backtalk - what exactly do you do? I say to ds the things already mentioned - you can be angry but you may not call me stupid, excuse me, what did you say, etc. But he just continues on. If I leave the room he will follow me around yelling at me to listen to him. I say I'll listen to him when he stops yelling at me, but he just says I'm being rude, or just yells more. I have picked him up before and brought him into his/our room, but he certainly doesn't stay there.

I'd close the door and hold the handle from the outside!








GO in your room yourself and LOCK the door. (or the bathroom)


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

oceanbaby, one thing I've learned after struggling with discipline for a long time is that no method of discipline is going to ensure that my children always behave the way I want them to behave. There's no magic pill.

That said, I think that what maya was getting at is that making your expectations very clear is very important but that kids will still sometimes not meet those expectations. However, kids do naturally want to please their parents-so making your expectations clear and telling them when they haven't met those expectations is very effective though maybe not immediately so. You might try _The Secret of Parenting_ by Anthony Wolf. He explains how it can be very effective to simply say "I do not like to be talked to that way. I expect you not to do it again." and then stop talking about it-because to continue to discuss the behavior is to feed into it and will likely make it worse. Sometimes there comes a point when continuing to interact is not helpful to anyone. There was a time when one of my kids would just scream and rage and nothing I did helped-interacting in any way made it worse, and trying to go to another room so I could take a breather, or putting her in another room made it worse-so I would just stay in the room (or do what I needed to do anywhere else and she'd follow me) and be available and quiet and decide to not let it bother me. I could usually tell or she'd let me know when she was open to some comfort or to moving on to the next subject.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

I was at a friend's house not long ago, and she unschools/very much GD's her children. Her 8yo walked into the kitchen and asked for a cheese sandwich. She explained that they were out of cheese, but she'd be happy to fix her a different sandwich. Her 8yo yelled at her, threw a little fit, and all the while the mom just stood there. Then when her dd finished, the mom made her a sandwich and sent her on her way. I do not want a child who thinks it is okay to act that way.
Ds is 9, unschooled, always gd'd. My response:

Genuinely surprised but calm"It is not acceptable to yell at me when you ask for help. When you would like my help, please ask again with a kinder tone. If you don't want my help or plan to use that tone again, you can make the sandwich instead, and we can talk about this later. I am visiting with x now".

I have very clear personal boundaries. Full stop. Worth reading again, because it is the whole context of gd and parenting in general for me. My child does not define my personal boundaries. He learns how to respect them. And this is what he gets in return. He has tremendous freedom and autonomy, and can define his boundaries and know we will listen and respect him.

These aren't boundaries he learns because he is the child and I am the adult. That is authoritarian parenting, and that is different.

These are boudaries that any peer of mine (dh, neighbors, friends etc.) would understand were expected if they wanted my help and involvement.

Yes he is my child, and there are essentials he can count on me providing because that is my responsibility. And when he was little, he did not know how to act or speak or behave in a way that was respectful, so this was a learning process we went through together. If he were 2 or 3, I would have probably said "When we ask for help, we use this tone of voice. No yelling. Asking nicely makes others glad to help." And I would have made a sandwich regardless, since he was too small to do that for himself or fully understand anway.

This has worked extremely well for us. Ds is truly deep down respectful, yet outspoken, and when he is hurtful, really cares about making it right. He was not born that way, and as far as I can tell, has not suffered at all for having a mom who did not do as he asked until he could convey respect in how he spoke and acted. It has really helped him understand boundaries *for himself* and that is just, very cool.

So, I think you need to validate that you have a right to do this too. Your son isn't seeing the consequences of the way he treats you. It wouldn't be too strong to say that ds's day was dramatically affected by really hurtful behavior. Plans were cancelled and time was spent apart, not as a 'punishment', but definitely a consequence from me no longer being interested in doing x with him the way he was acting. The day resumed when he came to me with an open spirit to talk about what happened, and I sensed
in him that he wanted to try again. I did not demand that, but neither was I dishonestly sweet or concillatory until it was worth it to him to make amends for his hurtfulness.

Honestly, this is the same way it would go if *I* were hurtful. Would I want ds to act like nothing happened? Would I want him to make me a sandwich when I had yelled at him to do it? No, I don't. I don't ever want him to think he has to go along with someone who is being really disrespectful. I want him to say "You know what? Your tone is not acceptable. If you want my help, you can ask in a way that makes me want to help you". I don't know how to impart that if I am afraid to ask it for myself, kwim?


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

ITA with Heartmama (another eloquent and helpful post, btw). I've been learning also over the last few months to make my personal boundaries clear, to let my children know how their behaviors affect me. And you know, they get it. They understand. They want to be helpful, contributing members of this family. They want to do the right thing. So when I'm clear about how I feel and what I want, it helps them learn how to consider the feelings and needs of others.

For example, I have been known to say, after a frustrating incident with my child who behaved rudely, "no, I don't want to play right now. I felt frustrated and angry when you kept screaming at me, because I need to be spoken to respectfully. I try to speak to you respectfully, and I want you to speak to me respectfully. I feel very upset and I need some time to calm down."

Moms deserve respect too. Can I expect my child to always interact with me respectfully? No, of course not. But I can communicate in a respectful and effective way how disrespectful behavior affects me, and my child will learn. And this models a great thing for kids-communicating their needs and feelings and maintaining their boundaries.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

I so like the advice you have gotten so far -- eg. who ever said you couldn't be GD if you were firm?

My 3.5 yo can be so infuriating - yells at us, makes demands, is rude to our live-in nanny who is like family to us (this one KILLS me) - and I struggle daily with how to deal with it.

But - I'm hoping you'll get a poster with some tangible advice - I agree with be firm - but firm with what? We can firmly say you may not "yell" at me. But if he does it again - then what? Is this the appropriate point to insert some type of consequence? I've tried - "please go to your room until you can act more respectfully to me and your dad" -- but he won't go on his own? so then what - we carry him kicking and screaming up the stairs to his room? That doesn't seem GD . . . . I don't mean to hijack your post . . . but I think the issues are related . . . . once you are "firm" -- then what?


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## dillonandmarasmom (May 30, 2005)

Like TripMom said, then what...

I've been following this thread, as usual, Sledg has amazing advice! (Insert smilie with looove all around it!)

I wonder what advice is out there for the then whats...

My almost 3 year old is having a hard time with gd, too, so waiting for more great info...


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## **guest** (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angela&avery*
ya that.... i usually say "Excuse me? I dont think I heard you correctly.."

this sounds condescending, while 'try again' can be said with a very compassionate, accepting attitude.

a


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Well, what would I do around anyone who was directing purposeful hurting behavior?

This is *very general advice*. I can't give specific advice without specifics, kwim? It will change depending on age, context etc. And this is for directly aggressive behavior from a child who is not listening to any boundaries or direction.

If a child is persisting with verbal attacks after I restated my boundaries, I will ask them to go to another room. If they refused, I would go to another room. When they are ready to stop, they can come talk to me about what happened ( I will state that calmly).

If a child is hitting and kicking they will go to a safe place, or they will be carried there. If they cannot stay there I will sit beside them and move them back to a safe place until they calm down or tire out. If I am the only other person in the house (there isn't another child to protect), I might go to a room instead. Again, they will know (because I will say) that when they stop, they can come to me and talk about what happened.

Naturally, the day will not resume as planned until he calmed down, and came to talk, and listen. We homeschool, so this is usually how it went, and it probably helped prevent many recurrences, since there was really all the time he needed to come around on his own and make an effort. I think that is very important. I think it had to come from him, that first step. I think if I was going to him and nagging him to make ammends, it made it about me, and it needed to be his decision to improve the day.

I made a concerted effort to put my attention on other projects around the house, because it did center me, and I think really gave him the freedom to take his time calming down and coming to me to talk. If I were hovering nearby and worrying and thinking about what just happened it could flame the fires of drama and emotion that were already running high.

When he did come to me I stopped whatever I was doing, really sat with him, really listened, stated my thoughts (that really hurt my feelings, when you said x to me) in a clear simple way, asked what could be done different next time. Told him I was very proud that he calmed down and was using words now to talk about what happened. Lots of hugs and then I usually suggested something I knew he would like (a walk, game, whatever) to get us out of the funk and show him how much he could change things for the better by talking instead of yelling or hitting.

I think he did learn, somewhere between 3 and 5 years old, that the person he hurt with aggressive and very rude behavior was not just me, but himself. I think he learned that when he acted that way, the person who was limited by it was him, more than me. I think he learned that
he had the power to made better choices. I think the clear difference his choices made were the motivation to do better next time.

**This is general advice**. Please just look it over for the spirit of the exhange. Depending on different situations, it will go differently, but the spirit of it was pretty consistent.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

heartmama, your post was very helpful! I am always at a loss over leaving the room because it seems anti-GD (like I'm abandoning DD). But, I also feel like I'm letting myself be a victim if I stay in the same room as a screaming child, esp. with my younger DD.

Thanks for helping me feel OK about that!


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

No problem. If something felt wrong, I listened to that. It felt very wrong, on many levels, to sit and be a target for uncompromising aggression.

You know, ds was so attached. He was the ultimate velcro baby, high needs toddler, you name it. Learning that I was another person was a real process for him. He did not know at first that I was another being, another entity. Part of treating me respectfully long term, was understanding that I thought about *me* the way he thought about *him*. What was true for him, was true for me.

I do see families in which the mother becomes invisible. She is a resource, not a person unto herself. Her children will be kinder to strangers than to her. We say that children save the worst for mom and that is true in a sense. I mean, don't we all save the worst of ourselves for those closest to us? But I think with gd, there is a tendency to over simplify this.

I think of it this way~if a person says "You can always come to me, always talk to me, always count on me to help. But you cannot abuse me, yell at me, or hit me" does this last part push them away? Will you be less trusting, less open, because you know this about a person? No, I don't think you will. Over time, what tends to happen to relationships in which one person takes any kind of treatment without defining personal boundaries? Are they hurting the other person, or helping them, when they define and maintain their own boundaries? All of these questions apply to the dynamics with kids too.


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## kitty waltz (Mar 23, 2005)

that was so eloquently said, heartmama. I think Ive agreed with every post of yours Ive read!


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

OK Heartmama, I hate to be this poster because I get frustrated when people do this to me . . . and gee I feel like I'm hijacking this thread (OP please forgive). . . . but I can't resist - I'm hoping you (or someone) has some wisdom .. . . I totally get the "if he won't leave the room to cool off then you should leave the room". It totally squares with everything I've been reading -- you can't make them do something - focus on what you can do. Here is my monkey wrench . . . I almost never can leave the room because I am in the room with the triplets too. You just can't scoop up 3, 14 month olds and retreat?

Here is an example of some DS bad behavior -that is chronic. From 5 to 6 is the babies "special time" with me and DH - they have had dinner and bath - and we crawl around on the floor reading books, snuggling, etc. before bed. I cherish this time - especially on days that I am working. I have tried to work with DS on his "special time" being from 6 pm on - much longer - and completely focused on him -no sharing with other sibs. Anway - the last few weeks all DS does is cause trouble during babies special time- so much so that I end up having to spend the whole time with him OR spend the whole time discipling DS. What does he do? General disruption that escalates to full blown meanness - start by piling all the babies things in the middle of the room so no one can crawl without stumbling on this stuff, take the books out of their hands, stand in their way so they can't get by him, insist that I hold him, try to shove a baby off my lap, push them, crawl over them, pretend cry and scream when I tell him to stop . . . shall I go on? Anyway - he wins. Each and every night I end up either holding him on my lap reading baby-books to him OR escalating discipline scenario starting very GD and quickly ending in yelling or removing from room. Of course - all of that keeps me busy with DS and babies get completely cheated out of mom time - just heard me struggling with DS for an hour and now they are tired and need to go to bed.

Tried discussing with DS at family meeting. Tried reasoning that everyone needs their special time. Always include DS in babies special time- he is in the room with us - but just want him to be mellow (not working). Tried to focus on how he might feel if babies acted up during his special time? Tried to set up a "special signal" so that when he starts to lose it we could give each other the signal as a reminder that his special time was coming (he didn't really get that concept). I am fresh out of ideas .. . . .

HELP? (Sorry OP)


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## Threefold (Nov 27, 2001)

TripMom, when we are faced with a similar situations, this is what works for us. To me, it is the logical consequence.
If my ds, after a full exlaination, etc, and all the talking you've done, still distrupting the triplets's (OMG, you must be amazing!) time, I would explain that if he took his time now, he would get less time later. So, if he monopolized my attention for 10 minutes of the triplets time, his time would be 10 minutes shorter than usual. This seems like it would only work if your time with ds has a specific ending time, and maybe it needs to, so he can understand the equity of the whole thing. Another thought is making sure your ds has plenty of independent activities to do during the triplets time. These could be special games, books, books on tape, whatever, that he only gets during this time. Another idea is to have your ds have special time with dh while you have special time with the twins and then switch?
HTH
I'll get back later with some more thoughts on ideas of how firm actually looks, but dh is waiting for me for a movie.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

DD screamed at me for not getting her when I put chocolate in her milk (she wanted to do it). All offers of "next time" went ignored. If things don't go her way, she yells at us (not at other adults).

When I removed her from the kitchen (I wanted to eat my lunch . . .younger DD will only let me so long), she cried/moaned in the hallway feeling bad for herself (she sang the "misfit" song from Rudolph). She does not understand that screaming at one's parents is unacceptable . . .all she gets out of it is that I am mean.

I am so lost.


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## angela&avery (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius*
(she sang the "misfit" song from Rudolph).









Im so sorry, but that made me laugh..

I flipped out on ds last night because he was asked numerous times to get ready to go and finally said nastily to my mother "NO"..... i was so upset, i removed him from teh room and did the whole you n eed to listen to grammy lecture...







....
ugh.....

im lost at times too....


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angela&avery*







Im so sorry, but that made me laugh..

I flipped out on ds last night because he was asked numerous times to get ready to go and finally said nastily to my mother "NO"..... i was so upset, i removed him from teh room and did the whole you n eed to listen to grammy lecture...







....
ugh.....

im lost at times too....

It made me laugh, too . . .(not so she could see!). She's pretty funny!








to you. At least we know we're not alone!


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## Threefold (Nov 27, 2001)

Sigh. Me too. Logical consequences help a great deal, and sometimes the logical consequence makes my kids angry. I think my job is to empathize and support them through it, but not necessarily to soften the blow.
I often find myself telling them, "I know that is not the answer you wanted to hear. . ."
My ds threw a grumpy sleepy tantrum in the middle of the night b/c he wanted to cuddle me, but had woken up dd, who then needed to nurse. He was kicking me and shoving me. I told him he could not hurt me, that I knew he was disapointed that he had to wait, but that if he hurt me again he could would need to sleep in his own bed. I asked if he could stop, and he did. I think this worked for us b/c I was calm (honestly I think I was waaaaay to tired to get mad!







) b/c leaving is the logical consequence for hurting someone, and b/c he knew I would follow through. He calmed right down and settled for rubbing my back while I nursed (his choice), until his sister was done and I could turn to cuddle him.

I often repeat that it is my job (and Daddy's) to keep everyone in our house safe. When he hits, kicks, name calls, I remind him of this, and ask if he will help me keep everyone safe. When he says no. I tell him that I have a problem with that and that he will need to be in the other room until he can help. I always tell him that I will check on him every 2 minutes so that HE feels safe and not rejected.
Growing up is not a pretty process. They all try out the most horrid behaviors with us, and often need to try them again and again before they truly have grasped why these behaviors don't work.
I find I can discipline best when I am calm, and have gotten enough of my most basic needs met, and understand that his/her behavior is not about me, though I can work to guide it.

FWIW, I am much more uptight with my ds, who is my older child. With my dd, I am relaxed and calm almost all of the time, even though she is hitting tantrum stage much earlier and more intensely than my ds did. I remind myself of this and try to lighten up with him as well.


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## ktmama (Jan 21, 2004)

_But - I'm hoping you'll get a poster with some tangible advice - I agree with be firm - but firm with what? We can firmly say you may not "yell" at me. But if he does it again - then what? Is this the appropriate point to insert some type of consequence? I've tried - "please go to your room until you can act more respectfully to me and your dad" -- but he won't go on his own? so then what - we carry him kicking and screaming up the stairs to his room? That doesn't seem GD . . . . I don't mean to hijack your post . . . but I think the issues are related . . . . once you are "firm" -- then what?_

You are right, it's sooooo important to set up natural consequences that you can and feel comfortable following through with. When my dd1 was 2 and 3 and trying out her voice, I simply ignored rudeness, screaming, demanding, any requests made in an unacceptable way. I told her this was my strategy, so she knew my M.O. So, no suprise that mama is ignoring you. I might even say, "I'm not responding because you are screaming at me. When you can ask for what you want in a kind voice and say please, I will respond to you then". The challenge for me was always continuing to ignore unacceptable behavior. That's the tricky part. Otherwise, I would have just taught her that pushing the voice from 8 to 10+ is what really gets mama to respond, not a kind or gentle voice. Those little ones are smart this way, huh?

_I often repeat that it is my job (and Daddy's) to keep everyone in our house safe._

This is a great strategy that I've used over and over, inserting different jobs here and there, such as, "my job is to make sure everyone feels heard, my job is to make sure you are clean, etc..." I think in all honesty this helps me remember that I am the mom and it's not necessarily my job to be the best friend and make everyone happy.

Thank you all so much for this really informative thread. I truly have believed in having really firm boundaries with my dd1 from the beginning while being kind and respectful to her and treating her with dignity. I've seen great results from this strategy too - it has worked for HER. As an observation, it's important for me to remember that the word DISCIPLINE is included in the philosophy of GD. I'm learning so much from you all.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

This is such a good thread. Really. Though Oceanbaby -- I hate to hear that you are having a hard time. You work so hard with your babies and I always think to myself that if anyone deserves a smooth ride -- it has got to be you.

I agree 100% with what Heart has to say about setting personal boundries. We do not do our children any favors by allowing them to treat us like dirt. Really, that isn't GD. And esp. with boys, Ocean -- they way he treats you is going to be mirrored in the way he treats his wife someday. Thats a huge resposibility. Expecting a person to treat you with respect is not punishing or being less than gentle.

Now -- having said that, I think your son is at an age of transistion and its going to be a learning process with a lot of little set backs. Up until now he has just been learning to be verbal. Now he has to work on being verbal in a *nice way* and its not an easy skill! I dealt with this process in 3 different ways depending on the situation:

1) If there is an urgent problem stimulating the bad behavior, then I help him solve the problem and I ignore the bad behavior for the moment. Ie. -- if he's hungry, I get a sandwich into him. I don't spend 20 minutes trying to make him ask nicely. If he's having a bad time because he's jealous of the baby, I work on helping him find a way to voice his problem and get what he needs.

But then later.... when things are calm -- I tell him no uncertain terms that my feelings were hurt by the way he spoke to me, and next time he has a problem I need him to use NICE WORDS. And then I ROLE PLAY with him. They think its silly and embarassing, but I ask them to ACT OUT the scenerio again and I feed them constructive language. Its very very helpful to approach them when they are not stressed out, and very helpful to have them rehearse nice behavior. It comes more easily in the stressful times if it has been practised at other times.

We also practise "tone of voice." I don't think they have any idea how nasty they sound in the moment. At a better time, I play/practise at different tones of voice with them, experimenting with how they sound, and disscussing what messages are communicated. KWIM?

2) If there is no urgent problem and my kids is just being a little SOB because he is testing limits or feeling cranky, or whatever, and I feel confident that he has some level of emotional resources to draw from ---- then I flat out refuse to deal with him until he is treating me nicely. "I'm sorry. I need space from you. I'm going to the other room. You come find me when you can use nice words." Or -- "You need to try again. I don't respond to that kind of language." Or -- "Can you try that again with a nicer tone of voice?"

3) A very few times, I have had one of my kids melt down and loose it so bad that I felt scared. My boys are big, and when they loose control they can do damage. I have sat on the floor and restrained them before, trying to be soothing and releasing them the instant they regain control. Then solving the problem. Then talking about it later.

I also think your DH needs to start spending 1:1 time with him, actively teaching him how to respect mommy and how to be a "man." KWIM? This is really helpful when my Dh does it. I know it can sound harsh sometimes, but boys need to be taught to respect women. And Dh will tell our sons in no uncertain terms that he expects them to be 1) gentle with mommy, 2) respectful of mommy and 3) appreciative of mommy.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Trip -- I am not Heart, but I wanted to address your problem situation. I hope that is okay. In your shoes, I would let go of "special time with babies." From a 3-4 year old perspective, this is a painful time of day when he is on the outside looking-in and not feeling like part of the family. It isn't fair to him. He does not feel that his "turn" makes up for it, and he is not old enough to delay emotional gratification at the level you are expecting. I think his bad behavior in this situation is an ineffective way of telling you that his feelings are deeply hurt by this routine, and wants to change it. I'm not saying its okay for him to communicate in this way, but he's only 3 and he's doing the best he can.

Some alternatives:
1) Include him on the playtime, and let him be one of the babies.
2) Spend time with the babies and have DH take him out for a little bit.
3) Find someone to take him for an hour on a regular basis so that you and DH can be alone with the babies.

Editing to add that evenings can be really rough for everyone, and I understand that. It was rough us with a 4 yo. and ONE baby, and I cannot imagine with 3!!! It does sound like you are doing a great job dividing your time and attention.


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## Peepsqueak (Jul 5, 2005)

All the posts to respond were good so I have no better suggestions. However I will comment NonGD parents have many problems with their children's behavior too. What they do about it may work: i.e. fear factors such as spanking, yelling, or other harsh and demanding punishments...but kids will still misbehave.
So it is better to just ride it out and keep reinforcing the positive instead of replacing bad behavior with another bad behavior as a deterrant.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck*
Trip -- I am not Heart, but I wanted to address your problem situation. I hope that is okay. In your shoes, I would let go of "special time with babies." From a 3-4 year old perspective, this is a painful time of day when he is on the outside looking-in and not feeling like part of the family. It isn't fair to him. He does not feel that his "turn" makes up for it, and he is not old enough to delay emotional gratification at the level you are expecting. I think his bad behavior in this situation is an ineffective way of telling you that his feelings are deeply hurt by this routine, and wants to change it. I'm not saying its okay for him to communicate in this way, but he's only 3 and he's doing the best he can.

Some alternatives:
1) Include him on the playtime, and let him be one of the babies.
2) Spend time with the babies and have DH take him out for a little bit.
3) Find someone to take him for an hour on a regular basis so that you and DH can be alone with the babies.

Editing to add that evenings can be really rough for everyone, and I understand that. It was rough us with a 4 yo. and ONE baby, and I cannot imagine with 3!!! It does sound like you are doing a great job dividing your time and attention.


Thansk Mamduck. You are so right - he clearly is very hurt by this time with the babies. And he clearly does not "get it". When I try to point out his special time is coming, and its better, he doesn't have to share, its longer, its both DH and I -- he just looks at me and says I want special time now? You are very very right on that point.

I think my only option is to try and find a way to include him in the special time - without letting him "take it over". I am not comfortable with other care arrangements during that time - as DH and I both work and between that and the babies regular demands - he has a lot of time in the care of others. Luckily, the babies are soo young - that they likely will not notice if DS is "in" on the special time. My challenge will be to accomplish a peacful co-existence - I've not been able to do that yet - but there has to be a way, right? Hopefully - this too shall pass - and before the babies get older and really start asserting their rightful time with DH and I!

Thanks to all.

Last thought - maybe I will try letting him "be one of the babies" - like you said? I'll report back on now that one works!


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Trip - if you succeed in establishing a peaceful co-existance, please share the secret of your success! My kids are in a pile on the floor wrestling as we speak.
At least its good natured for the moment, but far from peaceful!

When I was in the birth center holding my 2nd baby, a very sweet and wise nurse gave me some advice. She said if the baby and the 3 yo. are both needy at the same time, and I can only attend to them one at a time -- go to the 3 yo. first every time! LOL. It was really very decent advice. The babies will role with the punches. Its the 3 yo. who has had his world rocked in the past year!


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Hey Tripmom, I just wanted to suggest that maybe you could have a "big boy" activity set up for him that only he can do? This works with my dd when I need to put the baby down, I have things like Playdough and scissors and glue sticks, etc. I make a big production of getting it out and saying stuff to the baby like, "Sorry, these are only for big kids. You'll have to wait until you get a lot bigger to use these. Babies have to take naps right now." He's usually not even listening, but my dd is.

But this would probably only work if it's boredom that he's dealing with, so if he's just wanting more time with you, sorry!


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## Stone Fence (Mar 10, 2004)

:


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## lilith_382 (Jul 24, 2005)

Just wanted to say that I am in exactly the same place. Today I asked my son to get in the car seat while I buckled in his 9 mo. old sister, and he took a detour to find the garden hose. When I walked to the other side of the car towards the house where I had left my keys, he was waiting for me with the hose. I stopped dead and told him that if he got me all wet we would not be able to go to The Little Gym (which he loves), he called my bluff, grinned, and squeezed. I totally lost it. I mean I whipped him up off the ground, and immediately started yelling LOUD! I felt awful afterwards, but it was really the last straw. Every day is a struggle lately. He is so disrespectful. He refuses to do anyhing I ask him to do. We are visiting my mother who is now advising me to seek counseling with him as I obviously have no control. She has taken to threatening a spanking even though she knows I don't spank. I am sad to say that I understand where she is coming from. I guess I just wanted to say I'm right there with you. I have kind of fallen off the GD bandwagon this past week, and I am debating whether or not to get back on. Things seemed to be going so well too, and all of a sudden...
Oh well. Good luck.


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## jrayn (Jul 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johub*
First of all the hugest hugs to you!

The behavior of my oldest child also has me deeply questioning and challenging my core beliefs on how to raise/discipline children.
I still believe in GD.
But I think I will be a firmer GD mama with my youngest than with my oldest.
My 13 year old is the "exception that proves the rule" I guess.
Because treathign her with respect has not earned her respect. She is extremely disrespectful to adults unless they do what she wants. (treat her like an equal). Treating her with kindness has not taught her to be kind.
Always giving reasons and explaining everything and avoiding being arbitrary has not taught her that Mom always has her best interests in heart and is to be trusted. It has not "given her nothing to rebel against".
Keeping open lines of communication and making sure no topic is "taboo" has not encouraged open communication about important things and prevented lying and deceit. SO sometimes, seeing these things in my oldest child, it makes me wonder if they didnt have it right in the olden days after all.
But then I realize that, temptation aside, and the desire to have well behaved children aside, it just isnt in me to be a firm authoritarian type.

But you can draw a firm line and still be gentle. I am still learning.
Perhaps I will have that balancing act mastered by the time my youngest is 18!
Hang in there.
There are quite a few of us who want to be gentle and STILL expect reasonably good behavior and respect from our children.

I just wanted to say that I was raised by a very authoritarian father and from around age 14-21 I was lying and deceitful, rebelious and in search of all that was forbidden. I used to sneak out the window to go to parties, I used drugs/alcohol. The more authoritative he got the worse I got, and I do believe that b/c he was so authoritative (I would get grounded for 1 or 2 months at a time) that when I was finally 18 and out of the house, I was ignorant on many things and also in need to go wild even more so and those combinations caused me to get into some serious trouble.
Luckily I have mellowed out and come to my senses, I don't hate my father, and have learned from my mistakes.

Maybe there is a point somewhere between GD and authoritative that is the way to go, I am still learning and deciding


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## Satori (Jan 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TripMom*

Here is an example of some DS bad behavior -that is chronic. From 5 to 6 is the babies "special time" with me and DH - they have had dinner and bath - and we crawl around on the floor reading books, snuggling, etc. before bed. I cherish this time - especially on days that I am working. I have tried to work with DS on his "special time" being from 6 pm on - much longer - and completely focused on him -no sharing with other sibs. Anway - the last few weeks all DS does is cause trouble during babies special time- so much so that I end up having to spend the whole time with him OR spend the whole time discipling DS. What does he do? General disruption that escalates to full blown meanness - start by piling all the babies things in the middle of the room so no one can crawl without stumbling on this stuff, take the books out of their hands, stand in their way so they can't get by him, insist that I hold him, try to shove a baby off my lap, push them, crawl over them, pretend cry and scream when I tell him to stop . . . shall I go on? Anyway - he wins. Each and every night I end up either holding him on my lap reading baby-books to him OR escalating discipline scenario starting very GD and quickly ending in yelling or removing from room. Of course - all of that keeps me busy with DS and babies get completely cheated out of mom time - just heard me struggling with DS for an hour and now they are tired and need to go to bed.

HELP? (Sorry OP)

You have a very simple solution here







I think you said a few posts back you have a live in nanny? Can she make that the hour she takes him for a walk or goes to the park or just some where else for that hour? That way when they get back your done with the babies hour and he can get his special time. Just a thought... i'm struggling in the GD dept too, if I acted like my dd I would have been beaten within an inch of my life and a lot of the GD mama's I think just have really easy going kids (or there really monsters and the moms don't realize it) and not intense, high need kids.


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

My babe isn't old enough for discipline of any sort yet and I usually don't post in this forum because of that, though I have nannyed school aged children and so I understand a bit of what parents go thru. and because this thread happens to be more of the place for my opinion, I will be honest and say I read thru the other threads in here and my jaw just drops. I cannot imagine how allowing a child to decide whether they brush their teeth, get in the car seat, etc is helping them in any way, shape, or form. and I struggle so hard to understand how any of this is considered "natural" as in natural family living. in nature human parents most definitely make kids do stuff they don't want to do because it's what's best for them. even animals do that. just because the other extreme- spanking, withdrawing affection, illogical and unfair punishment- is wrong, doesn't make being a doormat or never, ever giving a kid a consequence for their actions right. there is a middle road. children do need structure, rules, limits. not on everything, on things that impact their health and development. part of that development is becoming a positive, caring, responsible person who understands that their actions affect others and that cooperation is necessary for survival- physical and emotional. I find it sad that some awesome mamas are so scared of doing something wrong and hurting their child's psyche that they go too far to the other side and don't create a healthy, natural environment that includes parents leading and guiding children- gentle and strong are not mutually exclusive.
(crawls back under rock)


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Satori*
not intense, high need kids.

I always struggle with this . . .DO I have an intense, high needs kid? I think she's a delight, but a demanding delight. If I could do what she wanted most of the time, great, but I can't. Compromise is hard. For example, I offered to play (do voices/roleplay) while I cleaned today (and I did), but every 1 or 2 minutes she said, "Look at this, look at me."







: It's constant. A constant, insatiable need for attention, for very _specific_ attention.

ETA: And it is NOT because I haven't tried (oh, have I tried) to get her to have some sort of satsfaction with playing by herself.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

When my 2.5 year old is acting in unpleasant ways (euphemism!), I find the biggest challenge is for me to continue to model appropriate behavior. The more centered I remain, the better the outcome.

She's a spirted kid, as has been since the get go. This has been hard for me to get, but when she's acting out she needs MORE from me, not less. She needs me to lean in and engage, not pull back or punish. Which isn't to say I never plop her in her room and walk away - when she won't stop attacking me and my temper is rising, I do what I need to do and step away to collect myself.

Leaning in and giving extra is hard enough with one kid, so I can't pretend I have "advice" for moms of many. I think creativity helps, and being open to alternative solutions. I know I sometimes get stuck in "I want her to do X! How can I make her do it?" when what I need to be doing is creative problem solving. Much like giving up the idea of babies-only special time and including the 3 year old.

For the child who runs, I would tackle it on several fronts. One, I'd do everything I could to minimize his ability to escape. Door locks or what have you. Secondly, I'd be calm but firm in telling him when his behavior isn't ok. And last, I'd make a game about running. He gets something out of running, and finding a way for him to get it in a safe way would meet his needs too. Maybe the game would be he opens the door and runs at a time when you can chase him. Be goofy and silly about it. You can use his running as a way to foster connection, not distance.

That's the thing about GD, in my mind. It requires us to tune in. We can set our limits and boundaries while respecting the needs of our children. Its hard, and no one is perfect. We all have grounded days and loopy days. That's a good thing to model, too.







Doing your best, and being gentle with yourself when things are tough.


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## coleslaw (Nov 11, 2002)

Oceanbaby, I was in your shoes at the same point in my daughter's life. At teh end of last year (just a few months before she turned 5), she was unbelievably rude and insensitive and bringing me to tears thinking what have I done wrong. It also didnt' help that TV was a huge part of her life due to me being involved in a very difficult time in my life. All of a sudden, GD was not the answer for me either. Except it was, just my version of it and what worked for us.

For us, less TV (I wish it were none, but it's not in the cards just now) was a part of it. Then it was firmer rules, more practice with dissappointments (not random, but less negotiating) and the word respect was used in many sentences. About a month after she turned 5, she has improved greatly. I don't know if it was the changes or just her being older. She still has moments, of course. She is still only 5, but they are more reasonable, we can work them through more easily and she talks more about her feelings. I don't know how long this will last, but it's a breath of fresh air right now.

I hope you find your way through this tough spot. If it would help, please PM me.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bri276*
My babe isn't old enough for discipline of any sort yet and I usually don't post in this forum because of that, though I have nannyed school aged children and so I understand a bit of what parents go thru. and because this thread happens to be more of the place for my opinion, I will be honest and say I read thru the other threads in here and my jaw just drops. I cannot imagine how allowing a child to decide whether they brush their teeth, get in the car seat, etc is helping them in any way, shape, or form. and I struggle so hard to understand how any of this is considered "natural" as in natural family living. in nature human parents most definitely make kids do stuff they don't want to do because it's what's best for them. even animals do that. just because the other extreme- spanking, withdrawing affection, illogical and unfair punishment- is wrong, doesn't make being a doormat or never, ever giving a kid a consequence for their actions right. there is a middle road. children do need structure, rules, limits. not on everything, on things that impact their health and development. part of that development is becoming a positive, caring, responsible person who understands that their actions affect others and that cooperation is necessary for survival- physical and emotional. I find it sad that some awesome mamas are so scared of doing something wrong and hurting their child's psyche that they go too far to the other side and don't create a healthy, natural environment that includes parents leading and guiding children- gentle and strong are not mutually exclusive.
(crawls back under rock)

This is a little OT - but Since you are new to the forum . . . have you noticed there is a spectrum of what this forum considers GD? There are many mommas here that practice non-coercion (I don't know if I spelled or used that term exactly right) and there are others who lean more towards "positive discipline" - to use another term? In this forum, the term "GD" is used to encompass all types of styles - even though they can differ greatly. Just an FYI . . .


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

From MDC's Statement of Purpose:

Quote:

Mothering celebrates the experience of parenthood as worthy of one's best efforts and fosters awareness of the immense importance and value of family life in the development of the full human potential of parents and children. At Mothering we recognize parents as experts and seek to provide truly helpful information upon which parents can make informed choices. *Mothering is both a fierce advocate of the needs and rights of the child and a gentle supporter of the parents, and we encourage decision-making that considers the needs of all family members. We explore the reality of human relationships in the family setting, recognizing that raising the heirs of our civilization well is the prerequisite for a healthy society.*

*Mothering advocates natural family living, including the ancient way of being with babies and children that is known today as attachment parenting. This way is reliant on the inherent integrity of children and the inviolate intuition of parents*. The family is the dominion of parents and children and authoritative knowledge rests with them. This website is a place to safely explore all the aspects involved in such a parenting philosophy.


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

yes yes I totally agree with all that! don't get me wrong. I've been a member here for a pretty long time and I truly do understand all of that. I would never, ever, advocate hurtful parenting and I am very AP and when babe is older will be GD too.
I also get that GD can encompass a broad range and I was referring specifically to the complete extreme end of the spectrum as far as non-coersion goes. I just don't know that anything I've read that has to do with AP has ever explained why it is a good idea to never make a child do anything they don't want to, even if it's for their own physical safety.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Sorry, y'all...I had a little helper press the send button a little too soon!

What I was going to say was that there is quite a spectrum here at MDC as to what constitutes "healthy," "natural"....let alone what is "GD."







Each family is striving to do what feels right for them. I wanted to share a helpful passage from from Peggy O'Mara's Natural Family Living:

Quote:

Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that their cooperation can be engaged to solve problems.
Bri, it is my understanding that non-coercion goes well beyond the basic tenets of AP, that practitioners of NC are all AP by definition, but definitely not all APers practice NC. There are quite a few threads if you'd be interested in the "never making a child do something..." topic so that this thread doesn't veer off into a debate.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I'm jumping in here late, as usual...

Trip, your example of trying to have "baby time" with the triplets immediately made me conclude that your son was simply not able to handle that. Plain and simple.

And this lesson holds for Oceanbaby as well as the others. It's hard to remember sometimes just how YOUNG a child of 3 or 4 or even 5 really is. How little experience they have. And I think it's hard for us to comprehend just how much skill is involved in doing things we take for granted like listening, understanding, changing our own behaviour when our emotions are screaming at us to charge down the wrong path, considering what others might be feeling, etc. Alot of what I'm reading here as "problems" with children are, IMHO, expectations set too high, and an inability of the parent to see that the child simply is not capable of meeting that expectation at that time.

With that said, I completely agree that kids, even young kids, need limits. I do believe they need boundaries set for them by the parents. I don't consider myself a "non-coercive" parent becuase I have no trouble making decisions for my kids, or telling them "this is the way it's going to be right now". But then I have little problem with it because I do consider them so much and respect them so much that the few times I need to "lay down the law" they just simply don't protest or react to it. And if they did, I'd know I'd pushed them too far.

Ocean, I always try to remind myself "A child who FEELS right, ACTS right". Your son is trying to tell you something with his behaviour. A need is being unmet. Maybe that need is for more "firm" like that article sledge linked to. Maybe its something totally different. But...I believe in my heart of hearts that punishments, logical or natural consequences, etc are simply NOT required. I'm not saying that nobody should use them. We all have our limits of what we are able to do, or what we can come up with. But I do believe its possible. I do think you can change your approach to parenting without having to compromise any of your GD beliefs.

Hang in there, mama.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Piglet68*
Alot of what I'm reading here as "problems" with children are, IMHO, expectations set too high, and an inability of the parent to see that the child simply is not capable of meeting that expectation at that time.

Yes, I always come back to this. I get frustrated, tired, and upset . . .and then (too often, too late) the little "aha" light goes off in my head and I remember. DD tries to tell me this . . .to remind me that she is so little . . .to reconnect with her instead of getting mad . . .but then I become the one who can't change (I demand she change) and get frustrated.










Ugh. Yet another "feeling like such a bad mom" night for me.

I'm not feeling bad for myself, just DD.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius*
DD screamed at me for not getting her when I put chocolate in her milk (she wanted to do it). All offers of "next time" went ignored. If things don't go her way, she yells at us (not at other adults).

When I removed her from the kitchen (I wanted to eat my lunch . . .younger DD will only let me so long), she cried/moaned in the hallway feeling bad for herself (she sang the "misfit" song from Rudolph). She does not understand that screaming at one's parents is unacceptable . . .all she gets out of it is that I am mean.

I am so lost.

Miz, I've read your posts for a couple years now, and I know that you are a great, thoughtful, compassionate mom. You are not mean. All of us can act mean at times (we are human), but your dd knows that you are not mean.

That said, and from that place (the place of a healthy family and loving, attentive, compassionate parents), I think it is really just fine that dd thinks you are mean in these circumstances. She didn't like your actions, and she got mad and she thought you were mean. Don't sweat it! Feelings are feelings, you know? It is ok for you to behave as you did (respectfully, but with personal boundaries), and it is ok for dd to feel what she feels. Maybe her behavior isn't appropriate (screaming), but she is learning all the time. She will learn better responses thru your example, your guidance in calmer moments, your limits, maturity, and practice. I'm personally still practicing and maturing







.

I don't think that we can be too attached--we should strive to always have awareness of, and compassion and respect for, dc's pov. But, as dd gets older, I realize that I can be too affected by dd's emotional reactions. I can not control her feelings, nor should I try. I can not always protect her from experience negative emotions, nor should I try. And, I must never allow her to abuse me--regardless of the intensity of her emotional response. That is certainly not a healthy example for her. These are some of the lessons I am learning from my extremely intense and highly sensitive 5 yo


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

I thought "no punishment" sounded great until I got a kid who decided that her mission in life was to push push push push push push push push push the limits as far as she could and bend bend bend bend bend bend bend bend bend the rules as far as they could be bent. And then push and bend a little more. A child who, at just turned four, tells me (after I just watched her throw something at her brother) that she didn't "throw" it, she "frizzled" it, and frizzling is different than throwing. A child who, after spending the first three years of her life getting a say in practically everything, has decided that her say should be the final say in absolutely everything. A child who probably has a better developed vocabulary than I do and who isn't interested in participating in a conversation about behavior.

My daughter is a wonderful, smart, extraordinarily funny and very persistant child who will outlast me on just about every issue. I do not have the patience to explain to her fifty times in two days why she shouldn't throw things at her brother, scream at me, yank things out of people's hands, or take out twenty toys, leave them on the floor, and seek me out in another part of the house to annouce "I am not going to clean up my toys!" My daughter does _not_ have impulse control problems and she has a memory 500 miles long. When my daughter deliberately does something she knows she is not supposed to do, there are consequences, or punishments as others would like to call them. My daughter does not respond well to talking about why she should or shouldn't do something, how it makes others feel, or what the theoretical outcomes might be. She responds to concrete limits, clear consequences, and ACTION.

We are gentle with our child. We do not scream, yell, jump up and down, or berate her. We do not say rude things, call her names, or try to make her feel small. We do, however, mean what we say when we set a limit, and we follow that limit up with consequences when she intentionally steps over the line. I believe that a limit with no action behind it is a desire, not a limit.

No one will ever convince me that the natural state of parenting is for kids not to have firm consequences to their actions, nor will I believe that all children will respond best to a certain way of parenting. There is too much diversity in people's temperments for me to believe that.

Oceanbaby, you are a very thoughtful mom and it is obvious that you love your son and want what is best for him. What is best for him might be very different than for another mom's kid, who might have a very different temperment. Parent in the way that is best for your son, the way that produces the results you want, both for you AND him, not the way that other people on some discussion board who have probably never met and don't live with your son think is best.

Thus officially ends Dharmamama's participation in the GD board. Many of you will probably be glad to get rid of me.







As they used to say in my high school, "So long, farewell, it's been real, it's been fun, but it hasn't been real fun!"









Namaste!

ETA: Because I know how hyper-sensitive people can be about this issue, I wanted to clarify that in addition to not screaming at, yelling at, or berating our daughter, we also do not hit/smack/spank her.


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## Satori (Jan 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I thought "no punishment" sounded great until I got a kid who decided that her mission in life was to push push push push push push push push push the limits as far as she could and bend bend bend bend bend bend bend bend bend the rules as far as they could be bent. And then push and bend a little more. A child who, at just turned four, tells me (after I just watched her throw something at her brother) that she didn't "throw" it, she "frizzled" it, and frizzling is different than throwing. A child who, after spending the first three years of her life getting a say in practically everything, has decided that her say should be the final say in absolutely everything. A child who probably has a better developed vocabulary than I do and who isn't interested in participating in a conversation about behavior.










I think we have the same child! It can be very fustrating and tiring dealing with these children. I would love to hear what exactly has been working for you because not much has been working here. You can PM me if you like


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
nor will I believe that all children will respond best to a certain way of parenting. .

I very much agree here. There are some things that are definitely wrong, but there is not just one "right" way. The assumption that there is a "right way" for all kids and families bothers me on either side--whether it is a poster saying that consquences are necessary for all kids, or a poster saying that consequences are never necessary.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Satori*
You have a very simple solution here







I think you said a few posts back you have a live in nanny? Can she make that the hour she takes him for a walk or goes to the park or just some where else for that hour? That way when they get back your done with the babies hour and he can get his special time. Just a thought... i'm struggling in the GD dept too, if I acted like my dd I would have been beaten within an inch of my life and a lot of the GD mama's I think just have really easy going kids (or there really monsters and the moms don't realize it) and not intense, high need kids.

Hi Satori -

You are right nanny is there Mon to Fri afternoons This particular issue presents itself most acutely when nanny isn't there - just DH and I - Fri/Sat/Sun. The situation is soo difficult - but I think I have concluded that "babies special time" is very hurtful to DS - and I need to find a way to include DS during that time with the babies - and dump the whole baby special time idea. It just bums me out - it seems that DS gets 99% of DH and I - and my poor little babies share the remaining 1% . .. . . anyway, thats an issue for the multiples board . . . .thanks for the response.


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## mamasaurus (Jun 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
My daughter does not respond well to talking about why she should or shouldn't do something, how it makes others feel, or what the theoretical outcomes might be. She responds to concrete limits, clear consequences, and ACTION.

We are gentle with our child. We do not scream, yell, jump up and down, or berate her. We do not say rude things, call her names, or try to make her feel small. We do, however, mean what we say when we set a limit, and we follow that limit up with consequences when she intentionally steps over the line. I believe that a limit with no action behind it is a desire, not a limit.

No one will ever convince me that the natural state of parenting is for kids not to have firm consequences to their actions, nor will I believe that all children will respond best to a certain way of parenting. There is too much diversity in people's temperments for me to believe that.









It does my heart good to see someone have the courage to say that. My DD is the same way. Thank you.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Okay, I have tried to reply to this thread twice in the past few days and it keeps getting lost with the server error. (Ditto to replying to some PMs I've gotten.) So this won't be as lengthy as the replies I wrote before, darnit, cuz I had good quotes and everything!

This thread has been immensely helpful to me, and I have really appreciated everyone's thoughtful replies. I've been practicing with some new approaches the past few days which seem to be more effective, the most notably is to make a very concerted effort to not respond in anger, no matter now atrocious the behavior. This is soooo difficult, but it really does make the incident not only shorter, but also more meaningful for both of us as I actually am able to demonstrate dealing with difficulties without getting angry.

There is still a lot more that needs to be worked out, and there are still some things I need to think about regarding consequences/punishments, and what is going to work for us.

Another big problem is getting dh on board. He has a very hard time with being calm in the face of such extreme rudeness and disrespect. I don't blame him, but we need to figure out another way for him to handle things.


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## faithnj (Dec 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
......No one will ever convince me that the natural state of parenting is for kids not to have firm consequences to their actions, nor will I believe that all children will respond best to a certain way of parenting. There is too much diversity in people's temperments for me to believe that......


I was raised GD. I'm 40 now. I couldn't stand/did not respect my mother when I was a kid....and I still don't respect her as a mother now. Living a life without consequences? Even as a kid I thougt it was stupid. And when she used to go to her bedroom-- I didn't understand that she was trying to punish me. I just thought she was weak.

All this making sandwiches for people who have disrespected you has got me confused. Granted, my DD is only 14 months old, so I'm not going through what many of you are going through yet. But from my dog training perspective, giving some one what they wanted without regard for the bad behavior they used to get it is REINFORCING the bad behavior. Put more simply-- if I knew that I could get a sandwich from you whether I asked in a nice way or in a mean way...then I wouldn't stop asking in a mean way, because I'd still get my sandwich.

I dunno. If these tactics work for you and your children, then that's wonderful. I fully support your choices. It's just that on a more basic level, I don't see how modeling good behavior while reinforcing/rewarding negative behavior is supposed to work with children.

Faith


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *faithnj*
I was raised GD. I'm 40 now. I couldn't stand/did not respect my mother when I was a kid....and I still don't respect her as a mother now. Living a life without consequences? Even as a kid I thougt it was stupid. And when she used to go to her bedroom-- I didn't understand that she was trying to punish me. I just thought she was weak.

Hi Faithnj -

Your insight is really interesting to me - as I've not met many people actually raised GD. I wanted to reply to make the point that - all GD forms do not advocate "no consequences" -- there are some approaches that seem to head that direction - but there are others that definitely advocate logical consequences and positive time outs (again - things that people following more liberal approaches usually bristle about), etc. For me, much of this thread has been about implementing consequences when the need arises - and what type of consequences are appropriate AND effective - and how to do it in a GD way (e.g., my son won't willing go to "positive time out" - I'd have to drag him up the stairs kicking and screaming - I feel very UN-GD when that happens - and that has happened in the past). I still don't think I've found an answer though?

On the topic of being raised GD and its problems - my BIL and SIL - the most AP/NFL people I know (eg my nephews were home-birthed in the tee pee they were living in at the time) actually sort of renounced GD to me a couple years ago - when the DCs were about 5 and 6 yo. Their kids had very little respect for their parents - or others, and many related behavior issues. Since then - I've had kids and become a very big advocate of GD - but at the time, I really almost disliked my nephews. Looking back - I don't blame GD - I feel like the parents sort of mis-applied the concepts - with very bad results.


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## faithnj (Dec 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TripMom*
...... but at the time, I really almost disliked my nephews. Looking back - I don't blame GD - I feel like the parents sort of mis-applied the concepts - with very bad results.

Funny how even those of us who adore children...all children, really....find it hard to like children when they act like that. I can't imagine how raising children who behave in such a manner as to provoke dislike among even the nicest, most loving people, could be seen as doing something in the child's best interest....however.

Based on results, it really seems like there are a lot of parents who don't know how to properly apply the GD concepts, and I wonder why that might be? And if they are not able to properly apply the GD concepts, then what should they be doing next? What would be better for their children? Would their children be better off being raised in a more conventional manner if the parents were getting better results? Or is it just better to do GD no matter what results they are getting? Certainly, thus far I've seen clearly that some people think that they do GD parenting because they as adults feel more comfortable with it. How the child is responding to their parenting choice is not the priority in these cases.

Just wondering.

Faith

I


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Faith, I think that it's true that often parents find that their discipline is ineffective-that is, that it doesn't lead to the goals they had in mind. I think there are a lot of potential reasons for this: misunderstanding of the child's ability (leading to goals that are inappropriate given the child's abilities), misunderstanding of the reason for the child's behavior (every person has a reason for their behaviors-really simple reasons such as "I want to see what happens" or more "deep" reasons, and to effectively foster change one must address the reason-much like a doctor doesn't treat everyone who comes in with chest pains for a heart attack, but takes time to understand the reason for the chest pain before giving treatment), maybe the parent is unclear about their values or goals or desires or needs, maybe the parent is not communicating effectively, maybe the child has unrecognized sensitivities to foods or chemicals that affect behavior, maybe the child needs to feel more connection to the parent, and the list of possible reasons goes on......

Certainly there is no single method of practicing gentle discipline that is right for every child and every family. If there were, parenting wouldn't be so tough-we'd just go out, get the formula from someone, and apply it and be satisfied. For many people, choosing not to use punishments (or artificial consequences or whatever you want to call them) actually does lead to children learning to behave in respectful, compassionate ways. I would say, after reading so much here from parents who choose to refrain from using punishments, that these parents _are_ making their children's response to GD the priority-though probably not in the sense of focusing exclusively on the "product" that is their children's behavior.

And discipline is at heart, I believe, all about communicating effectively with children-listening _and_ giving information. Regardless of whether one chooses to impose consequences or not. Understanding this has been enormously helpful to me and my children. It does require letting go of my own agenda (but not my values) in order to be open to listening to my child and understanding their reasons, and finding an appropriate and effective response. Letting go of our agendas is something many of us are uncomfortable with, I know I find that discomfort almost daily. But it's a discomfort well worth facing, I've grown a lot from letting go.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

I see how the discussion switched from "consequences" to "punishments" - and no need to debate the uses of those terms - just noted the switch . . . .


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Well.....I'm not clear myself as to whether there's actually a difference. Wasn't trying to debate. Wasn't trying to switch the discussion. Was trying to make a point that had _nothing_ to do with defining what's a punishment vs. what's a consequence. Literally everything we do and say has a consequence of some sort (so when is a consequence a punishment?







), and I'm not about to say that imposing a consequence is always wrong or always right-life and people are far too complex for that. That complexity was my point.

Point was, really, that there's more to people than stimulus and response. Choosing a consequence to impose (whether or not it's a punishment) or even deciding that there will be a natural consequence, alone, doesn't address the myriad things that can go on inside a human being that lead to the behavior they exhibit. And consequences without effective communication (which often includes listening to our children, in addition to making our values and expectations clear), in my own experience with my own family, can remain ineffective despite being conisistently applied.


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
Point was, really, that there's more to people than stimulus and response. Choosing a consequence to impose (whether or not it's a punishment) or even deciding that there will be a natural consequence, alone, doesn't address the myriad things that can go on inside a human being that lead to the behavior they exhibit. And consequences without effective communication (which often includes listening to our children, in addition to making our values and expectations clear), in my own experience with my own family, can remain ineffective despite being conisistently applied.

I absolutely agree. I think most GD approaches are consistent in that they urge the parent to try and identify the "cause" of the behavior - not merely address the behavior itself. Similarly though - I don't think merely examining the cause of the behavior and never applying a consequence (or punishment if you prefer) is the right way to go in every situation either. But there are definitely GD-styles advocated on these boards that object to any consequence whatsoever . . . .

For instance . . . I am still struggling with what to do when DS yells at us or otherwise is disrespectful to us. I can't get him to go to a positive time out without a lot of drama - and very non-GD removal of DS from room. Similarly, I can't leave the room as other children can not be easily moved and are too young to be left unattended to. I have identified the behaviour as attention seeking. I have tried "special time" and other techniques with the goal to help DS to understand that he is important to DH and I, even when we are not able to give him our full attention - like when we need to attend to the babies. Nothing is working. I think I need a consequence . . . but for the life of me I don't know what that is?


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## suzyn (Feb 9, 2006)

Hi I'm new--but I guess i think gentle discipline is so important. it helps us be more creative and less hierarchical in all of our interpersonal relationships. Both with our children, with our peers and with our elders.

My son is almost three and i think he respects both myself and his father. I think we try to be sensitive to his needs, but we also think that consequences are good and natural. For instance, if I don't pay the electric bill and buy books instead, the lights get turned off. If jack is aggressive with his little sister, then he has to leave until he can come back and be nicer to her.

I worry about parenting through fear. Parenting because we fear our children will not respect us, parenting because we fear how our children will turn out. Children are a work in progress. A work, I believe, that at some level is only partially controlled by us.

we want jack to know and understand that his actions have consequences so that he can learn to take responsibility for his own actions, and eventually his own life.

i think part of all dicipline is to help children make good decisions and to live as a responsible member of a larger community. Most children that I have observed that have been gently diciplined are confidant but are also thoughtful and reflexive. That's what I want for my kids.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
Point was, really, that there's more to people than stimulus and response.

Yes!

I would like to offer an analogy if I may

Lets say I got stomach ache, taking a pill and thinking that my problem is solved. Then I have a stomach ache again and take the pill again. Then eventually pills stop working, so I switch to a different pill that somebody told me "works wonders". Then the same thing will repeat again and again until I get to the real issue - WHY is my stomach hurting? Do I eat unhealthy? Do I have an ulcer?

I believe in a similar thing regarding raising kids - they don't just "misbehave" for no reason. And a time out or imposed consequence or any other punishment will get rid of the SYMTOMPS, but not of the cause.

So, just like the stomach ache should raise a red flag "something is not right inside my body", same red flag should be raised in case of a child misbehavior "something is not right INSIDE my child". Hungry? Lonely? Not enough attention? Peer pressure? Too much TV? *I* am doing something / not doing something?

It's way more difficult then just "taking a pill" iykwim. But on the long run we learn not to even get to the point of needing a "pill". And to the point of not needing punishments.

PS. On a subject of comparing "training" kids to training dogs. I do not take offence to it, I love dogs. BUT. In case of dog training we "make" them do what is unnatural for the animal to do - sit in a cage, perform according to our commands, etc., In order for dogs to do natural things no concequences are needed - I never saw a mother dog put a puppy in a time out or leave it without a special outing or something. I saw mother dog TEACH it's pups by gently prodding them if needed. Mostly however pups just mimic what their mother does.

In case of kids (I hope) we should concentrate on things that ARE natural for human beings to do - eat, sleep, play, be compassionate, love. And many things may require TEACHING on our part and this is what I think GD is all about. And guess what, mostly they just mimic what we do


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *irinam*
Yes!

I believe in a similar thing regarding raising kids - they don't just "misbehave" for no reason. And a time out or imposed consequence or any other punishment will get rid of the SYMTOMPS, but not of the cause.


You are so right. But what to do when all your actions focused on the "cause" are getting you nowhere? Also - as PP just pointed out - IRL - your actions do have consequences - so to completely shelter DCs from that does not help prepare them for IRL very well at all? Not the little ones need to learn so much so early about "IRL" - but as they grow this becomes more and more important.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TripMom*
You are so right. But what to do when all your actions focused on the "cause" are getting you nowhere?

Yes, it is tough. Again I will continue with my analogy - I may choose to continue using the "pills" until I (hopefully) find a real cause&#8230; BUT that would be at expence of my liver, my intestinal flora, etc., which very likely may have a long term effect. OR I can choose to "tough it out" until I find the cause and keep the rest of my body healthy (hope I am not getting too far off in my analogies, LOL)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TripMom*
Also - as PP just pointed out - IRL - your actions do have consequences - so to completely shelter DCs from that does not help prepare them for IRL very well at all? Not the little ones need to learn so much so early about "IRL" - but as they grow this becomes more and more important.

As far as preparing for tough things in real life&#8230; Lets look at things other than job consequences. I have a DD and most likely she will experience pain of birth sometimes in this life. Does it mean I have to "toughen her up" by intentionally introducing pain in her life? You and I know it's a rhetoric question, the answer is "of course not".

Sooner or later in this life kids might stand a change of being exposed to more carcinogens (in form of household cleaners for example). Does it mean we should "prepare" them for that by not "sheltering" them from the chemicals? Again, of course not.

Kids see and experience TONS of natural consequences in their life. As a matter of fact I am amazed at how fast they have to learn that stepping in a puddle makes your feet wet, dropping the glass on the floor makes in break, and so on

So in short I don't believe we need to "make up" stuff to prepare them for real life and there is only so much we CAN shelter them from


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *irinam*
Yes, it is tough. Again I will continue with my analogy - I may choose to continue using the "pills" until I (hopefully) find a real cause&#8230; BUT that would be at expence of my liver, my intestinal flora, etc., which very likely may have a long term effect. OR I can choose to "tough it out" until I find the cause and keep the rest of my body healthy (hope I am not getting too far off in my analogies, LOL)

As far as preparing for tough things in real life&#8230; Lets look at things other than job consequences. I have a DD and most likely she will experience pain of birth sometimes in this life. Does it mean I have to "toughen her up" by intentionally introducing pain in her life? You and I know it's a rhetoric question, the answer is "of course not".

Sooner or later in this life kids might stand a change of being exposed to more carcinogens (in form of household cleaners for example). Does it mean we should "prepare" them for that by not "sheltering" them from the chemicals? Again, of course not.

Kids see and experience TONS of natural consequences in their life. As a matter of fact I am amazed at how fast they have to learn that stepping in a puddle makes your feet wet, dropping the glass on the floor makes in break, and so on

So in short I don't believe we need to "make up" stuff to prepare them for real life and there is only so much we CAN shelter them from

I appreciate your analogies but they are missing my point - in my example I have identified the cause of DS behavior - Attention Seeking. I need look no further. So once you've identified the cause - and have applied GD techniques to try and address the cause - and no success - what then? I think a consequence may be appropraite here? Continue to try and address the "cause" for sure - but something additional to try and also dissuade the behavior -- in my situation I am at a loss for what the consequence should be though . . . .

As for your analogies re consequences IRL - they are a bit extreme. I was thinking more along the lines of . . . .if you yell at people - they don't like it, and don't want to be your friend. These type of things were more to my point . . . but I appreciate the cancer and childbirth pain, etc. and agree - no need to have the DC go through that now to prepare for later.


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## KA29 (Jan 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
We are gentle with our child. We do not scream, yell, jump up and down, or berate her. We do not say rude things, call her names, or try to make her feel small. We do, however, mean what we say when we set a limit, and we follow that limit up with consequences when she intentionally steps over the line. I believe that a limit with no action behind it is a desire, not a limit.

No one will ever convince me that the natural state of parenting is for kids not to have firm consequences to their actions, nor will I believe that all children will respond best to a certain way of parenting. There is too much diversity in people's temperments for me to believe that.

...

ETA: Because I know how hyper-sensitive people can be about this issue, I wanted to clarify that in addition to not screaming at, yelling at, or berating our daughter, we also do not hit/smack/spank her.

I mainly lurk here but I was really glad to see your post. That pretty much exactly describes my parenting style. And why I lurk here but don't post much.

Anyway, I really have nothing to add but I am glad I'm not the only one who parents this way at MDC.


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

Quote:

I have identified the cause of DS behavior - Attention Seeking. I need look no further. So once you've identified the cause - and have applied GD techniques to try and address the cause - and no success - what then? I think a consequence may be appropraite here? Continue to try and address the "cause" for sure - but something additional to try and also dissuade the behavior -- in my situation I am at a loss for what the consequence should be though . . . .
are you wanting to veer away from the standard mainstream consequence of temporarily taking away an item or priviledge (ie, tv, if you do'nt do tv, other fun activity) ?


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bri276*
are you wanting to veer away from the standard mainstream consequence of temporarily taking away an item or priviledge (ie, tv, if you do'nt do tv, other fun activity) ?

Yeah. I'm trying to impose a GD consequence - and to do that, it has to be "related" to the action? I am stumped? Maybe the only thing to do is say something like . . . OK DS, if you can't speak nicely to your family members, you don't get to do X, or have to go to bed early? I fully intend to continue trying to address the underlying cause - trying to get him to understand that we love him and he is cherished, even if we can't always focus 100% of our attention on him - but in the meantime, the behavior is persistent - and I feel like I need to start addressing it too - but want to pick my course of action carefully, and be consistent when I do.


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## faithnj (Dec 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *irinam*
......
PS. On a subject of comparing "training" kids to training dogs. I do not take offence to it, I love dogs. BUT. In case of dog training we "make" them do what is unnatural for the animal to do - sit in a cage, perform according to our commands, etc., In order for dogs to do natural things no concequences are needed - I never saw a mother dog put a puppy in a time out or leave it without a special outing or something. I saw mother dog TEACH it's pups by gently prodding them if needed. Mostly however pups just mimic what their mother does.....


I don't know, Irina. Your point of view about dogs seems pretty "idealistic," to say the least. When's the last time you studied anything about dog behavior OR dog training??? When a puppy gets "out of line" in the dog world, a mother dog bats at it with her paw, pins it down, growls at it, and perhaps will nip at it to put it in it's place. If you really think there are no consequences for poor behavior in the dog world-- perhaps you need to spend an afternoon in a dog park, or something to open your eyes to their reality.

Now if you'd like to get back to discussing people.......the only reason I brought up dog training in reference to giving children sandwiches despite the fact that they were impolite in the asking is this: Most modern dog trainers try to reinforce positive behaviors while extinguishing undesirable behaviors from their companion animals. If you give a dog his food while he is jumping on you (certainly natural dog behavior) then you are reinforcing the jumping behavior.

I don't really see how having your child scream and yell at you, and then giving him what he wants, does not reinforce to the child that he can behave however he wants to, and yet STILL get whatever he wants from you. If you can tell me how this isn't reinforcment of disrespectful behavior, I'd love to hear it.

Faith


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *faithnj*
I don't know, Irina. Your point of view about dogs seems pretty "idealistic," to say the least. When's the last time you studied anything about dog behavior OR dog training??? When a puppy gets "out of line" in the dog world, a mother dog bats at it with her paw, pins it down, growls at it, and perhaps will nip at it to put it in it's place. Now perhaps you have your peaceful, gentle dog world ideas because you have mistaken this behavior for play. But puppies "act out" in the dog world, just like human children "act out" in our world. And there are definitly consequences for poor behavior in the dog world-- from both the mother dog and from other dogs in dog societies. If you really think there are no consequences for poor behavior in the dog world-- perhaps you need to spend an afternoon in a dog park, or something.

Now if you'd like to get back to discussing people.......

I've spent plenty of afternoons in the dog park, thank you. Even though I did not "study" about the dogs, I did own several in my life, including two females (I am probaby not allowed to post a proper term for a female) who successfully had puppies.

And athough I have observed (and had to intervene) quite a few dog fights between two adult dogs of the same gender, I did not see pawing of the puppies. May be I was at GD dog park, I dunno


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TripMom*
in my example I have identified the cause of DS behavior - Attention Seeking.

Um, so he wants your attention. Why do you think he needs consequence for that? I understand that at times 3.5 yo's can seem like they are demanding too much attention, but why is it a punishabe cause?


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

Trip Mom - You have identified the cause of your son's behavior but it wasn't "attention seeking". It was "I used to have mommy and daddy's attention and friendship all the time but now I have to sit by myself while they play with these new babies and I'm lonely and I don't understand why if everyone else in the family gets to play, I can't too!" That's very different. Now that you understand the underlying cause, you have thought of some good ideas of what to do to remedy the situation.

I do agree with FaithNJ that by giving a child what he/she wants right after some unacceptable behavior, you are reinforcing that he/she can do that unacceptable behavior and get what they wanted anyway. So the child is learning that the behavior can't really be all that unacceptable. I would never make a child a sandwich who screamed at me. I would model the appropriate way to ask if that was needed, or I would ignore the screaming if I had already modeled it, but that child would not get a sandwich until they did something appropriate first.

I also wanted to respond to Lillith's example about the garden hose. not going to the Little Gym is a very natural consequence of getting mommy all wet and thus not being able to get there on time since mommy had to change. But I think that a GD response to that situation would not be to yell. I mean, he's the one who is going to miss out on Little Gym. You just got wet. Sure, getting wet is no fun, but yelling doesn't do anything to help the situation. I would have simply said, albeit in an unfriendly voice, "Oh well, we'll have to go back inside and we can't go to little gym now since we won't get there on time." Got the baby out of the car, and had DS comes inside too and changed my clothes. Then I would have focused on dealing with the clothing so that he didn't just come back in to play as if everything was OK. "I can't play right now, I have to change and dry my clothing (stuff shoes with newspaper, etc.)", keeping it all natural.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

Well I'm not Tripmom, but I think it's fair to offer a consequence not for the need, but for the way he's seeking to meet that need. As in, I understand you want more attention, and I'd like to be with you too, but you may not jump on your siblings, and if you do so, you cannot play in this room right now. At least that is what seems obvious to me.

But I'm often muddling. I tend to doubt myself a lot as I struggle between gentle discipline and firm limits. Sometimes I think "I'm not firm enough! that's the problem!" and other times I think, "I'm expecting too much! Creating battles and he's reacting! That's the problem!" In reality I don't think there really is a major problem, other than I don't trust my instincts enough.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnmama*
Miz, I've read your posts for a couple years now, and I know that you are a great, thoughtful, compassionate mom. You are not mean. All of us can act mean at times (we are human), but your dd knows that you are not mean.

Now I understand why your name is sunnmama . . .you warmed my heart!









Thank you so much for your words. I agree that we need to share our feelings/who we are with our children. . .I guess it's sometimes hard because it' making ourselves vulnerable, to show that we are human and imperfect to our children.

Thank you again.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TripMom*
in my example I have identified the cause of DS behavior - Attention Seeking. I need look no further. So once you've identified the cause - and have applied GD techniques to try and address the cause - and no success - what then?

FWIW, and this is given in the spirit of caring and genuinely wanting to help, I have found that in my own experience when I believe I have identified the cause of/reason for my child's behavior and earnestly attempt to address that cause and yet the behavior is still a problem, one or more of the following is likely to be true:

1) I have not fully understood the cause. For example, my child may in fact be seeking attention, but that's not a full understanding. My child is seeking attention because she is grieving the loss of the one-on-one relationship she had before her brother was born; my child is seeking connection because she feels stressed out about something I don't notice because it wouldn't stress me out or I take it for granted; my child is seeking connection because she is frightened about something or nervous after having developed into having a new sort of awareness of the world. Often the cause I identify isn't really an adequate understanding. And without adequate understanding of what's going on, I can't address it effectively.

2) I have become stuck in a way of thinking that prevents me from seeing more possible ways of addressing the behavior that might help. For example, I get stuck wanting to control my child's behavior (often because I want relief from it, it's stressful), and so I become fixed on stopping it as quickly as possible (which limits my awareness of potential responses)-which is subtly different from being focused on understanding it and responding in the way most likely to be helpful. I don't really know how to explain this one better. Wanting to control my child's behavior, if I'm honest, is more about me and what I want than about my child and her needs. Which doesn't make me a bad parent-just human, but it just isn't going to be quite as helpful. Controlling another person is just not possible much of the time (and when it is possible, is it really what I want?) Questions I ask myself that help with this are: what do I want my child to do? _Why_ do I want him to do it? Am I perceiving the situation correctly (do I have thoughts, feelings, assumptions, memories, etc. that prevent me from seeing the situation clearly/objectively)?

3) I get stuck in wanting to see immediate results. In my home, when a behavior has been going on awhile or when it's the result of a child feeling bad (and there's a lot of feeling bad involved when siblings are born), it takes time-even when I'm responding in the most helpful and effective way I can-for my child's behavior to change. Changing a habit takes time, healing emotional hurts takes time, learning to replace less effective behaviors (like hitting) with more effective ones takes time.

Often when I think about all these things, when I take the time to step back and look deeply at my child's behavior and deeply (and honestly) at my own thoughts and motivations, I find that already have inside the wisdom I need-the most helpful, appropriate, honest response is likely to become obvious. Not everything has some deep, mysterious cause-but often my own perceptions cloud the simplest of reasons for my child's behavior, making it more difficult for me to respond.

Anyway, TripMom I hope you find some solution that helps your family feel more peaceful. I can't imagine the difficulty of raising triplet babies plus an older child. I have my hands full with three singletons, two years apart each.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
For example, my child may in fact be seeking attention, but that's not a full understanding.


I agree with Sledg that whenever I think my child's behavior is "attention-seeking" that is more a descriptor, not the cause of the behavior. Its really easy to assume that the child is "just" looking for attention and that is why she is acting out. Its more helpful to see it as the child attempting to reconnect, and there is a need driving that reconnection that is more than simply, "I'm bored; I want attention."

Also a person's behavior can be motivated by more than one thing. "Getting attention" may be partially what the child is after, but if I look further, there is usually more to it.

Sometimes my child is frightened by something I don't see at first or didn't think would frighten her (for example, yesterday, DD was constantly seeking my attention, demanding to be held - I was a little annoyed until I realized that she was moving closer every time the dog across the street barked. She was scared of the dog. She had never seemed bothered by it before but it was like she had just tuned into it).


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut*
Well I'm not Tripmom, but I think it's fair to offer a consequence not for the need, but for the way he's seeking to meet that need. As in, I understand you want more attention, and I'd like to be with you too, but you may not jump on your siblings, and if you do so, you cannot play in this room right now. At least that is what seems obvious to me.

I kind of agree with you, Hazelnut, but I have to say that I don't know if this would help. I think a 3.5 yo would only hear that he can't be in the room where his mother (who used to be all his) and his three! little siblings are. I'm not saying you should allow him to jump on his siblings, but can you keep him from doing it in the first place? Just thinking you might be creating a negative cycle: He hurts baby, mom gets mad, attention is withdrawn, he gets madder at baby. It just must be SOO hard to be the only with triplets. It sounds like he's having such a hard time finding his new place in the family.

But I personally don't like to get into power struggles. I guess Dharmama's gone, but it sounded to me like her dd was mad at her, not that she needed more consequences. Why else would a child seek out her mother to inform her that she was flauting her rules if she isn't chafing under the yoke of her control? And, simply from a practical point of view, that can't work well for long. Something will have to give.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut*
Well I'm not Tripmom, but I think it's fair to offer a consequence not for the need, but for the way he's seeking to meet that need. As in, I understand you want more attention, and I'd like to be with you too, but you may not jump on your siblings, and if you do so, you cannot play in this room right now. At least that is what seems obvious to me.

I think that while on the face of it this makes sense, I think in this particular example the consequence (you can't play in this room right now) increases the need (b/c the child needs more contact with mom and is now removed from mom again) and is therefore not helpful. Might even make things worse.

In our home, my response to an inappropriate way of seeking to meet a need is simply to communicate to my kids 1) that I understand they have a need and 2) that what they just did is not an appropriate way to try to get that need met and offer specific examples of what would be appropriate and then to do my best to meet that need. When the need is gone, the behavior that seeks to meet that need is gone as well.

And I wanted to add that sometimes, yes, the need is just to have more connection with and attention from mom and nothing more-people just need connection. That's a valid need. And sometimes even when I think I've filled that need and given enough and my children's cups should be full, those cups really aren't quite full enough.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

I've been trying to implement what I've read in some naturalchild.com articles--which is pretty much what you're saying too--in which the author suggests addressing the need and suggesting a better way to meet it, which was my intention in that response. The other poster said "what's wrong with needing more attention" and my first thought was nothing, but there is something that needs to be addressed if he's trying to get attention by hitting. Though I agree, removing him if he's obviously jealous or struggling with a baby is likely not good. But with my baby I had to literally pick up the baby and leave during an episode or pick him up (and Tripmom can't pick up all three babes) because he otherwise would.not.stop. It was like a spell and he needed help calming down. I don't personally believe that removing from a situation is always abandonment. It's true though, if I didn't have to do that in that moment, that or anything beyond some calm and firm words that showed I was upset, just fanned the flames. The only thing that alleviated his hitting the baby was more attention during other times.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut*
The only thing that alleviated his hitting the baby was more attention during other times.

This is what I've found with my own kids. Not lavishing on the attention at the moment of aggression, but at a more appropriate time. At the moment of aggresssion, sometimes it's been best to physically move away (I don't think leaving the room is abandonment either and safety must come first, but sometimes leaving actually does make things worse, as in the case of a jealous sibling-and very often just doesn't help), sometimes best to just not call much attention to it, sometimes best to distract, sometimes best to do some serious talking about it, sometimes best to [insert action here]. Every situation seems to be a little different in terms of what's needed by the child acting out, in terms of what the other kids are needing at the time, in terms of what's actually possible to do, and in terms of my own frame of mind.

No easy answers.


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## Think of Winter (Jun 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PikkuMyy*
I do agree with FaithNJ that by giving a child what he/she wants right after some unacceptable behavior, you are reinforcing that he/she can do that unacceptable behavior and get what they wanted anyway. So the child is learning that the behavior can't really be all that unacceptable. I would never make a child a sandwich who screamed at me. I would model the appropriate way to ask if that was needed, or I would ignore the screaming if I had already modeled it, but that child would not get a sandwich until they did something appropriate first.

Ida know about this. I know I get very cranky when I'm hungry. Don't know if that was a factor in the original sandwich post, but I would never withhold food if my ds was behaving in a way I didn't like. I think I'd feed him, then when we were both calm, explain how his behavior made me feel.

I think it's definitely possible to teach a child that a behavior is undesired without punishing. Our children are smart and want to please us. This morning my 2 yr ds grabbed a book from his friend's hand. I called him over and told him in simple terms that his action made his friend feel sad, and that we could see it on her face. He went and gave the book back. Granted, it doesn't always happen this way, but it's a learning process. None of us are perfect, and we make mistakes. I could have instead grabbed it from him, or told him play time was over, but what would he have learned? Perhaps that I'm mean. Perhaps that I didn't like what he did. Perhaps that grabbing a toy had a negative effect on him. But it wouldn't have taught him that his behavior affected his friend, and to me that was the important lesson.

Just another pov from a relative newbie to gd.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg*
No easy answers.

I dunno, slege. The way you explain things makes it seem so easy . . .so common sense . . .I'm often left thinking (after your responses), "Yeah, why didn't I think of that?" Yet I don't!









I am SO up for a big ol' GD conference where I can go and study you mamas!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *colleen95*
I think I'd feed him, then when we were both calm, explain how his behavior made me feel.

ITA with what colleen said here. Kids, and all people I think, don't do things just to be bad. People do things because they're trying to get a need met. Sometimes they way people try to get their need met is hurtful to others. The solution, to me, isn't to withhold the sandwich (if I'm honest with myself, my urge to say 'no sandwich' is retaliation for being screamed at-it's not teaching). In my mind, the best way to help someone learn to be compassionate is to show them compassion. And when a child is upset and screaming, they aren't receptive to listening to much or learning much. They have to calm down first. They have to have their need met before they are free to listen and learn. And they learn from our example of extending compassion even when they are behaving in less than ideal ways. This is why I think a simple "I don't like to be screamed at, I expect you to ask me nicely" then a sandwich is the most helpful way to go. Once the child is calm, we can talk about how others feel when we talk to them in various ways.

Behaviorism is seriously lacking as an explanation of and method for modifying human behavior. People are just so much more than that. IMHO.

And Mizelenius...







I have been through so many hells to learn these things, and I look back and think of how much easier it all could have been if I'd known then what I know now. And yet the challenges still keep rolling in to keep me humble. Ahh, life. Funny.


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## Nurturing Mama (Nov 11, 2003)

Since I'm one of the people who said I wouldn't make a sandwich for somebody who just yelled at me, I want to clarify. I haven't really seen anyone advocating withholding the sandwich, although I may have missed it as I've skimmed parts of this thread.

I would ask for a more polite request before I made the sandwich...this _always_ works for my three year old. If that didn't work, I would expect an eight year old child to make the sandwich herself. If the kid wasn't capable of making a sandwich, or was so hungry that she _couldn't_ control her behavior, I would then make the sandwich and talk about it later. My point is that I wouldn't withhold the sandwich, but I also wouldn't make a sandwich and _do nothing_ about the rude attitude. It's about my personal boundaries and not allowing people to treat me that way, as well as teaching my child how to control his behavior even when he doesn't feel like it.

Carrie


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I have experienced realities with ds which defy the idea that I, heartmama, will fulfill the need causing the behavior. I may never know his reasons, or I may know the reason, and discover it beyond my ability to influence. And yet we must live together, we must find a way to respectfulness.

I don't know whether this helps the discussion.

But I do want to validate the point here that each person, child included, is on their own path. There can be an issue that a child brings into the family which does not begin, and won't end, with the parents influence.

When *this* was the reason for a hurtful behavior, I was not a mother-therapist-healer to him, but more a mother-other-boundary for him. By defining the boundaries of my existence firmly, he was in a safe, predictable situation in which he could try and try again to do the same, to learn his boundaries, and to respect others. This was just....so important for him, so important for us, so essential to living respectfully and peacefully and in a democratic way with each other.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Tripmom the thread has evolved since you asked for my advice. I will have to come back to it, but it seems you are saying 'baby time' is the main time your ds acts hurtful? Or is it anytime? Before the babies were born? I'm trying to understand the larger context.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:

The solution, to me, isn't to withhold the sandwich (if I'm honest with myself, my urge to say 'no sandwich' is retaliation for being screamed at-it's not teaching). In my mind, the best way to help someone learn to be compassionate is to show them compassion.

Such a complicated point to make.

There is truth in your words.

And it is also true that for me, not making the sandwich, with an older child in particular, would be showing compassion to myself, to the way such screaming made me feel. Yes, definitely. It wouldn't be retaliation. It would be a compassionate honoring of my own boundaries.

And that can also teach compassion.


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

I wasn't saying that I would not give the sandwich either. But by giving a sandwich right after the screaming without practicing what is a more appropriate way to say it is just reinforcing the screaming.

To be more specific, I might say something like "You must be really hungry to yell like that. But you need to tell me using a voice that I can understand. You can tell me "Mama, I'm so hungry that I have to eat right now" or "I am angry because I'm hungry and you aren't giving me the food I need" or "Hurry mama, my tummy hurts". Then I'll understand what you need and be able to give it to you. Let's practice." I wouldn't just ignore the screaming and walk away. I would talk to the child and get him/her to explain how they felt in non-screaming words, and then making the sandwich. I mostly work with kids younger than 8. By 8 years old, a child should know how to request things without screaming. And I've seen many children who don't and many times it is because their inappropriate behavior has been reinforced.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

_But I personally don't like to get into power struggles. I guess Dharmama's gone, but it sounded to me like her dd was mad at her, not that she needed more consequences. Why else would a child seek out her mother to inform her that she was flauting her rules if she isn't chafing under the yoke of her control? And, simply from a practical point of view, that can't work well for long._

I agree that power struggles are a road I never want to go down. But don't some kids just test anyway? Don't they all test their autonomy? And in some situations, don't some kids test if they are actually crying out for more boundaries? I think some will act out more if their parents are trying to control them, as you say. But I feel like my son has always been a tester, even when we compromise til the cows come home, he'll eat his crackers in the kitchen with one toe touching out into the hallway, looking at me, because we have a no-eating-outside-of-the-kitchen/dining room rule. We don't have a lot of petty rules, but this is important to me and is not enforced with actual force and he doesn't seem to mind. And yet. The toe.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Wow, so many things I want to quote and comment on. I'll just start and see how far I get before someone wakes up!

Quote:

But I personally don't like to get into power struggles. I guess Dharmama's gone, but it sounded to me like her dd was mad at her, not that she needed more consequences. Why else would a child seek out her mother to inform her that she was flauting her rules if she isn't chafing under the yoke of her control? And, simply from a practical point of view, that can't work well for long. Something will have to give.
Ds1 will definitely seek me out to tell me he did something "wrong." I don't see myself as very controlling - in fact, most people in my life who have a criticism of my parenting/discipline would say that I am too lenient. But it's obvious when ds1 is having this difficult times that he is trying to do everything he can to make me angry, to engage in a battle. He will go through the little list of things he knows pisses me off, waiting for me to finally lose it, which for a long time would work - he always ended with a little swat at his brother since he knew that that was the hot button if nothing else was working, such as throwing trains or slamming doors. We have such a wonderful, close, loving relationship the other 23 hours of the day, that I don't see this as him being angry with me per se, but rather being angry and not knowing how to express it appropriately.

Quote:

have not fully understood the cause. For example, my child may in fact be seeking attention, but that's not a full understanding. My child is seeking attention because she is grieving the loss of the one-on-one relationship she had before her brother was born; my child is seeking connection because she feels stressed out about something I don't notice because it wouldn't stress me out or I take it for granted; my child is seeking connection because she is frightened about something or nervous after having developed into having a new sort of awareness of the world. Often the cause I identify isn't really an adequate understanding. And without adequate understanding of what's going on, I can't address it effectively.
I absolutely think ds's behavior falls under the "my child is seeking connection because she is frightened about something or nervous after having developed into having a new sort of awareness of the world" category. I was just telling dh that I feel like ds has jumped into this new realm of awareness about the world, has developed a deeper understanding of complex situations, and his angry behavior has increased at the same time. So while I am hard pressed to find even more ways to connect with him (we are pretty darn connected most of the day), I am keeping my eyes out for extra opportunities.

But I still have the same question that keeps getting asked here, I think by TripMom: While I am working on meeting this need of his, assuming of course I even know what it is, what do I do about the behavior in the meantime? What do I do when I have calmly told him that I undertstand he is frustrated that his train fell over, but that he may not scream at me, and he continues to? And if I do manage to go into another room, telling him that I am available to him whenever he can stop screaming at me, he then picks up the train and throws it (one of the few hard and fast rules we have in this house is no throwing trains). So then, I tell him that that I understand he is angry, but that he may not throw trains. He can hit the couch, he can tell me about how angry he is, but he cannot throw trains. But he interrupts me, screaming things like "you're not part of my family, get out of this house, you're stupid,". So how long do I continue to tell him what he may not do (i.e., set boundaries) while he just continues to do it anyway? And what specifically do I do about it? This is the part I don't understand.

And another question: What ARE some of the things you suggest to your child to do when they are angry?


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut*
I agree that power struggles are a road I never want to go down. But don't some kids just test anyway? Don't they all test their autonomy? And in some situations, don't some kids test if they are actually crying out for more boundaries?

See, I just don't know about this. My child, no. As long as she feels understood and validated, she doesn't seem to want to push the limits. But she's naturally cautious, introverted, and thoughtful. So I guess I don't really have much insight on that. I hear people talking about their children testing way, way more than mine. And I think that some parents and some children will naturally just have more conflict, and it's unavoidable. We are who we are, and there may be times in our lives and relationships that we irritate each other more than others, IKWIM.

But I do think some people do more to avoid this than others. For example, you can "compromise till the cows come home", thus avoiding most conflict and keeping the testing to the minimum, hopefully. Or, you can choose to "break a child's spirit", and set yourself and your child up for a world of hurt. Anyway, I guess most people here are in the former camp. Just thinking out loud, I guess.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nurturing Mama*
Since I'm one of the people who said I wouldn't make a sandwich for somebody who just yelled at me, I want to clarify. I haven't really seen anyone advocating withholding the sandwich, although I may have missed it as I've skimmed parts of this thread.

I would ask for a more polite request before I made the sandwich...this _always_ works for my three year old. If that didn't work, I would expect an eight year old child to make the sandwich herself. If the kid wasn't capable of making a sandwich, or was so hungry that she _couldn't_ control her behavior, I would then make the sandwich and talk about it later. My point is that I wouldn't withhold the sandwich, but I also wouldn't make a sandwich and _do nothing_ about the rude attitude. It's about my personal boundaries and not allowing people to treat me that way, as well as teaching my child how to control his behavior even when he doesn't feel like it.

Carrie


I totally agree with you. We mamas have rights and feelings too.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

I definitely don't think all kids, even when heard, are similar in the acting out department. I see certain siblings, parented the same way, either gentle or not gentle, and some are naturally compliant and others seem compelled to make their own way. But of course parents can just make it more difficult if they are insisting on compliance. It definitely is tougher around here if I step back and see that maybe he needs more than I've been giving. I guess I was wondering more about whether such an egregious form of "look what I'm doing wrong!" was along those lines or more because they're angry at feeling disrespected or controlled too much. Probably the latter I guess.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
Such a complicated point to make.

There is truth in your words.

And it is also true that for me, not making the sandwich, with an older child in particular, would be showing compassion to myself, to the way such screaming made me feel. Yes, definitely. It wouldn't be retaliation. It would be a compassionate honoring of my own boundaries.

And that can also teach compassion.

You know, I agree with this completely. The worst thing about talking about parenting is that relationships (and parenting is a relationship) are complex. There are no simple statements that sum it all up. I was actually thinking about this last night, and thinking that with an older child I would probably not make the sandwich-at least not until we had talked and I had been asked politely. I was thinking, in my earlier post, of younger children and of the few times I have examined my resistance to doing something like making the sandwich and found a desire for retaliation (ETA that of course, this desire to retaliate is due to my ignoring my own need to be treated with respect and asked nicely-the need to be respected and spoken to politely is valid and must be addressed). I should have been more clear, it sounds like a terrible blanket statement-and blanket statements just aren't accurate. I agree that we teach compassion not only by extending compassion to others, but by extending compassion to ourselves. It is _so_ important to extend compasssion to ourselves. And once again it comes back to clear and honest communication, to effective communication. To being aware of my internal experience, and being able to communicate with my children in awareness of that internal experience-to communicate to my children how I feel when I see them do things and what I would like for them to do instead, and to listening to them and helping them learn how to communicate their thoughts and feelings in effective ways (which they seem to learn mostly through watching me communicate, rather than through me telling them how to do it, yk?).

This has been such a fascinating thread.

I also totally agree with the point you made about how sometimes the underlying need seems to be one that cannot necessarily be met completely by the parent. I think sometimes we parents can help and see to it that the need is met, but that sometimes it must take time and occur within the child, with our support. Does that make any sense? For example, the grief that comes with the birth of a new sibling. It is grief, though each child experiences it to a different degree and it is accompanied also by the pleasure of having a sibling. And grief takes time to heal, it can't be made to go away by something the parent does. The child needs to feel it and be supported through it, the child doesn't need someone to fix it for her. I can think of other adjustments my children have had to make that are similar in that all they needed was time and for me to support them through it. I can't fix my kids, and they don't need fixing. I can't fix every difficulty they face, and that wouldn't serve them well even if it were possible. They have to grow and learn and live their lives. It's hard to accept that and remember that, I have this terrible urge to fix. But I do know deep down that I can trust them to learn, I can support them and be a role model and communicate clearly with them and they will learn-I don't have to always be trying to fix.

__________________________


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## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
Tripmom the thread has evolved since you asked for my advice. I will have to come back to it, but it seems you are saying 'baby time' is the main time your ds acts hurtful? Or is it anytime? Before the babies were born? I'm trying to understand the larger context.

I know. And I think I've contributed a bit as I realized in retrospect I've mixed topics on this thread somewhat.

But to answer you - most of our conflict with DS right now is rooted in baby-jealousy. Problems since the babies have been born. The "yelling" is a somewhat separate issue - but related - it occurs during conflict involving jealousy with babies - and at other times too. Hope that helps a little.


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## I Fly (Jul 8, 2002)

I haven't been able to read all six pages of the thread yet, but here goes:

OceanBaby, how does your DS's behavior change if you spend lots of time with him during the day? Like if you take your kiddos on a three hour hike/walk where your goal is connecting with him in a positive way?

Have you read Neufeld's Hold On To Your Kids? A couple of things that come to mind are: aggression is the fruit of frustration. What is he frustrated about? He probably can't tell you, but is simply following his instincts. The other thing Neufeld said that I keep coming back to is that children misbehave either because they lack maturity, or because their attachments are in disorder. I find this insightful and challenging. I have been trying to comb through my relationship with my 3yo to see if there are any gaps in our attachment. I've been trying (as much as I really don't want to!) to nurse him more - even initiate it sometimes. I'm trying to make use of all our positive time together - cementing good relationship. Still, we had friends leave our house from a playdate today because of sharing issues. My son doesn't share well at all. I'm wondering if it is that he lacks the maturity to do it - and if that is the case, do we never see other children?

I'm trying my best with GD, but I am certainly not perfect, or 100% sold on it. My reaction to my son's meltdown in the wake of sharing incident today was to remove him from the scene (or follow him as he ran across the yard), sit down and tell him his behavior was not okay, try to communicate that while also communicating that he in his person is okay and that I love him, then had to leave his brother sitting in the yard so that I could carry him kicking and screaming into the house. I then went and got his brother. Then got a snack and water for the 3yo and took it and him up to his room. Told him that he needed to play by himself if he could not share with his friends (which is what I had said outside before the blow-up). The snack was in case hunger was adding to the problem.

I feel your frustration. The challenge is not coming up with a snappy solution to a specific situation, because the real challenge is that the behavior keeps popping up and up and up constantly. If you haven't read Hold On To Your Kids, I think it would be a helpful read. I also like PP's suggestions of trying to determine if allergies or some other issue behind the scene is causing frustration, and the article on being a Hard Ass mom.


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## PaganScribe (Feb 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oceanbaby*
But I still have the same question that keeps getting asked here, I think by TripMom: While I am working on meeting this need of his, assuming of course I even know what it is, what do I do about the behavior in the meantime? What do I do when I have calmly told him that I undertstand he is frustrated that his train fell over, but that he may not scream at me, and he continues to? And if I do manage to go into another room, telling him that I am available to him whenever he can stop screaming at me, he then picks up the train and throws it (one of the few hard and fast rules we have in this house is no throwing trains). So then, I tell him that that I understand he is angry, but that he may not throw trains. He can hit the couch, he can tell me about how angry he is, but he cannot throw trains. But he interrupts me, screaming things like "you're not part of my family, get out of this house, you're stupid,". So how long do I continue to tell him what he may not do (i.e., set boundaries) while he just continues to do it anyway? And what specifically do I do about it? This is the part I don't understand.

Well, I try to make those things he _can't_ do, if they are truly things that I can not tolerate.

Not to oversimplify the issue, but -- throwing trains apparently is a big issue here, since it's one of a few hard and fast rules. If this is something he's really struggling with, if it's something he can't (or won't, which in a small child I'm not sure is all that different) control -- why not put the trains somewhere he can't get them? And I dont' mean in a punishing "now you can't play with trains way" but more in a "the place trains go when they aren't being played with is up very far away, and they don't come down very often and only during very stable times." Sure, sometimes it's going to slip through that he gets mad while playing with trains and throws one, but then "Oh, I see we're through with trains, up they go again."

When my little sister was going through a god-awful-horrible-throwing-things-slamming-doors-raging time in her life, my parents went to some pretty extreme measures -- even to the point of taking doors off of hinges so they couldn't be slammed. She ould throw and break "trinkets" -- so literally ALL our trinkets went away.

Basically -- they knew she was at a stage where she was going through some BIG things and that until she worked through them, they could either fight against her acting out at the same time as trying to work through the issues, or they could prevent the acting out. Does that make sense? And I hope I'm not stating anything completely obvious that you've tried 100-fold before, but it's what occurs to me. If I know there's a big issue with my kid, I'm going to try my best to prevent any little thing -- like slamming doors -- from becoming an issue.

As far as yelling -- no, you can't take away his voice. And yelling sucks and feels bad. But you can remove yourself, and you can tell him again and again that "this is not acceptable and not how I expect to be spoken to." And you refuse to engage and you ignore (even though I know it's very, very hard). By trying to do that talking when you're in the middle of it, all you're doing is engaging.

I'm not sure I'm explaining very well what's in my head, and as I only have one child who's younger, I may not be able to fully appreciate the situation. But these are the thoughts I had reading this post.

Quote:

And another question: What ARE some of the things you suggest to your child to do when they are angry?
My child is only three, but we suggest:

-- get a pen and paper and scribble to get out some of the "big feelings" (anger/frustration -- this is his favorite; he will often cry and scribble for up to ten minutes and then seek out one of us to "talk about it")
-- step out on the back porch and yell as loud as he can
-- get on the floor and stomp his feet or jump up and down
-- if someone is able to go outside with him, go outside and run around the yard to "run out" the big feelings
-- go in his room and lay on his bed and try to breathe out the big feelings so he can be calm
-- tell us what he would like to do, or what will make him feel better, or ask for help figuring out what he's feeling (he often does this one after doing one of the others)


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

PaganScribe, I







your post!!!


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## angela&avery (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annabanana*
this sounds condescending, while 'try again' can be said with a very compassionate, accepting attitude.

a

i think its all in the tone. I dont say it with attitude, I say it kindly.


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## Kontessa (Nov 5, 2005)

It is so nice to come here and see so much help for something many of us on the GD path go through.

I can not count how often I have heard something like the first post, someone crying out for help, expressing the pain and anger and fears. At frist it seems clear that the person just wants support doing what many think of as the easy thing rather then the right thing. They want to hear it is ok to hit and do what their parents did because they are not terrible people. True many of us make it our of childhood ok, dispite the harsh punishment. Far too many do not though. My brother, like so many other people in jail, was one of the wounded by such parental acts. I on the other hand am ok.

We found GD when DD was 3. I remember posting much the same thing after a few months. I was at wits end. And then all of a sudden, it all changed. life was nothing like it had been before. I loved spending time with her and we thrived. Now she is 6 years old, we had a new baby, moved across country, and with so much change, came a change in her as well. Not for the better. Now I am back here, trying to find my footing again as I really am not enjoying a lot of the time we spend together these days. I am drained trying to keep up with baby, the house, the pets, hubby being away (Military) and homeschooling her. I know her issues have a lot to do with how she sees her mommy and her worry is acted out as well.

In short, thank you for starting this thread and thank the ladies who can respond in kindness and offer hugs and help. It reminds me of the house. What ever happens, I wish you peace.

Blessings,
Kontessa


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yoshua*
to me GD is not physically hurting your child or giving them over the top punishments.

I know that doesnt go with alot of the bored users, but if a child throws food and he is of an age to understand that normal people do not throw food, i do not think it is unacceptable to expect that child to pick the food up after himself.

I am not a 'big' believer in time outs, but when someone is causing physical harm to others and refuses to curb the behavior (this includes animals) I have no problem putting said child on a time out, 1 minute per year of life.

You may ask why? well, I believe in real world consequences and I also expect my children to obey and respect the law.... if you hurt someone in real life, you get put on a time out for alot longer than 20 minutes if you are 20 years old.

You can adjust yoru GD thinking, you don't NEED to be ok with allowing a child the run of the house/farm/garage/pets/siblings. There are limits in life, and to me, a child without limits won't understand that later.

I give respect to everyones own personal way of parenting, which includes HARDCORE GD that alot of the moms around here use, it is awesome when it works. But everyone is different, children included, and some children require more structure than others.

Modify, you don't have to do what doesn't work for ya.

/support



















I don't spank. I don't send them to bed without dinner. I don't make them take cold showers. But there are consequences for crappy behavior.


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## Lousli (Nov 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius*
Oh, geeze. I know where you are coming from. I SO know where you are coming from.

My BIL/SIL reprimand their children constantly. 95% of the time, I am not even sure why. It's just . . ."Mary. Mary! MARY!" But, guess what? "Mary" is one of the sweetest children I've ever met. So kind to my DD, so smart, so funny. And polite!

I keep asking DH where we went wrong. We do not seek a complacent, obedient child, but I can do without the screaming and demandingness from her.

Elaina,
we so need to catch up. It sounds like our oldest daughters both have a case of the "scream and demand" bug right now.


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## frenchie (Mar 21, 2006)

I too struggled with GD. My son started crawling at 3 1/2 months, and was running full force by 9 months (walking at 8 1/2). When he was 6 months old, he was into everything!! I had no idea I was going to have to start implementing "no" at 6 months old!! I went to a GD board and asked advice.....how do I discipline a 6 month old, how do I get him to understand what "no" means? I was told "you don't"...he's only 6 months old. I believe you need to nip the behavior in the butt...don't wait for it to escalate. I was too frustrated to remain a member of that board.
I decided that I needed to find my comfort zone in regards to GD. I totally embrace the ideas of respect, choices, discussion and all that jazz. I also believe in teaching humility (not humiliation), establishing firm boundaries, and providing consequences for ill actions.
I do NOT allow my son to talk disrespectfully to me, or anybody for that matter. When he does, I remind him that I don't talk to him like that, therefore he is not allowed to talk to me like that. If he continues, he recieves a time out....and he stays there until he can talk nicely. I teach him to treat others as he wants to be treated. I expect him to appologize when it's appropriate.
As for choices...he is given choices that are simple....would you like juice or water? Cereal or oatmeal...blue park or orange park. However, we have non-negotiables. He gets overwhelmed with too many choices.
Sometimes I feel like I'm too hard on him.....but I *know* I'm doing the best I can, I know what he needs. He such a well behaved child....gentle, comapssionate, understnding and he's SUCH a lover!! *Often* I have complete strangers approach me and tell me what a pleasant and well behaved child he is....in restaurants, at the market, in the mall. I can't take full credit....he naturally has a great disposition...but he is a wild child, a free spirit!
Hang in there....find your comfort zone and start asserting yourself with your son. He is in complete control at the moment...YOU are the parent...it's YOUR job...not his! His feelings are going to be hurt, you remind him that you love him. He's going to get mad at you, you remind him that you love him. Be firm, be consistent...you need to draw boundaries and you need to establish your role as the mother/parent, and your husband needs to establish his role as father/parent.
I hope that my response isn't off putting...just my .02...take it or leave it








Just know that you are a *wonderful* mom, you are not a failure. It's not too late to help your son change his behavior.


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