# Have a friend who's a Babywise-r. Help?



## Zuzu822 (Oct 5, 2006)

**Update #32**

I found out yesterday that a new friend uses Babywise...her two week old is already on a schedule! This is the first time I've ever met someone IRL who uses it, and I'm staggered. Not only because it's putting a face on the "method", but because I really like this lady! She has a delightful 2yo DS and is just fun all around. Though it is kind of ironic because just before she told be about Babywise, she said that being a SAHM should require a degree in child development and early childhood education.









Anyway, I didn't say anything at the time, just nodded and moved on, but we later started a little conversation about it and I'd like a little help responding. I can't quote exactly what she said, but basically it was along the lines that she doesn't agree with everything, but it is philosophy of raising your children to provide their needs before they need it and believing that implementing a feeding/wake time/sleeping schedule based on what the *parents believe is in the best interest of their children*.

The part I bolded is specifically what I'd like to respond to since I believe in trusting that the baby knows what she/he needs and given time they will develop their own rhythm and the family will blend. I kind of imagine it as breathing or the tides or something. Give and take and the new baby is worked into the family and the family works around the baby.

Well, maybe I should just type that, lol. The one thing that especially distubed me on the Ezzo site was a testimony that said following this method made it seem like there wasn't a baby in the house. I dunno-- I LIKE having and knowing a baby's in the house!

She didn't mention how she feels about the crying aspect, which is probably what freaks me out the most about Babywise. I can live with a schedule implemented gently and over time following the baby's cues and tweaking to blend everyone together, but the idea of an itty-bitty baby potentially crying from hunger and/or because it's "sleeping time" makes me ill.

I rambled a bit trying to write my response explaining how we do AP, ecological breastfeeding and how our beliefs about respecting life play into it, but I'm not sure how much to say. Should I even mention my concerns or just explain what we believe and more or less go along with the "we all do things differently" line?


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## Bokonon (Aug 29, 2009)

Ugh! I will never understand how people can read that book and not become enraged, but that's beside the point.

Can you forward her this link? www.ezzo.info Maybe tell her that the AAP has put out a warning against the practices outlined in the book, and are trying to get the book banned?


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## mama k nj (Dec 18, 2006)

How much you want to say depends on how close you are and how much you value her friendship. I have a friend who is a baby-wiser. Honestly, I often find it uncomfortable to be around them. It's not just the baby stuff, but her whole philosphy on corporal punishment and parenting in general. I too feel torn because she is a delightful person and really believes she is doing what is the very best for her kids. She is actually probably the most dedicated mom I know. She is just dedicated to different ideas than I am.

Obviously it pretty much goes against everything AP that I do. When things come up, I have just said, "Well I'm not comfortable letting him cry. I believe it's his way of communicating." We have not had a lot of convos about it because I just don't make a point of it. But like I said, some things she does makes me a bit uncomfortable and I've not gone out of my way to spend a lot of time with them because of that. I don't think this is something I'm going to debate out of someone. So I guess I take the agree to disagree status unless someone really wants me to start pulling out the research. Which I'm happy to do if they ask!


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## TheGirls (Jan 8, 2007)

Ah. I think this explains a post of yours elsewhere.









I'd love ideas for what to say in the moment when people start talkin about this stuff too. I was there and she was talking about how well her babe was sleeping at night, and I commented that it sounded similar to Alex's schedule, thinking that maybe the babe fell into it naturally like Alex did. I was completely dumbstruck by the Babywise thing. I didn't know what to say. I wanted to loudly proclaim that we would never do such a thing and that when I had said Alex had kept the same schedule I meant it was her NATURAL schedule, not one imposed by me! But I was so flabbergasted that I didn't say anything.

I've read the book (I own the book, actually, it was given to me as a gift and I didn't want to give it away for fear that someone else would actually think it was a GOOD idea.) And honestly the worst thing in it for me is the way the method doesn't seem to allow the baby to communicate at all. Or, it doesn't allow the mother to respond to the baby's communications. Or something, I don't know.

I've used the analogy of an elderly person before. As in, when my grandmother (died of Alzheimers a few years ago) was unable to speak or understand much, sometimes she cried out in the night or at other inconvenient times. I would have been livid (as would most people) if her caretaker had ignored her cries just because it wasn't time to respond to her. I don't know of anyone who would think it would be ok to leave her crying out in her room without at least attempting to comfort her. And as an adult, she didn't need nourishment in the night...

Sorry, I'm rambling. I'm frustrated by this turn of events also, and by some of the other mamas in our group who do/have done CIO. I really wish I could come up with a more constructive response than stunned silence...


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## Zuzu822 (Oct 5, 2006)

Thanks for the replies, mamas. This whole thing I just torturing me!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bokonon* 
Ugh! I will never understand how people can read that book and not become enraged, but that's beside the point.

Can you forward her this link? www.ezzo.info Maybe tell her that the AAP has put out a warning against the practices outlined in the book, and are trying to get the book banned?

I thought about that, or just posting the link to my FB and being really passive-aggressive. She pretty much said that she has no intention of changing, so she would probably not give much stock to the site, especially since Ezzo devotes a section of his site "refuting" the critics. :-(

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama k nj* 
How much you want to say depends on how close you are and how much you value her friendship. I have a friend who is a baby-wiser. Honestly, I often find it uncomfortable to be around them. It's not just the baby stuff, but her whole philosphy on corporal punishment and parenting in general. I too feel torn because she is a delightful person and really believes she is doing what is the very best for her kids. She is actually probably the most dedicated mom I know. She is just dedicated to different ideas than I am.

Obviously it pretty much goes against everything AP that I do. When things come up, I have just said, "Well I'm not comfortable letting him cry. I believe it's his way of communicating." We have not had a lot of convos about it because I just don't make a point of it. But like I said, some things she does makes me a bit uncomfortable and I've not gone out of my way to spend a lot of time with them because of that. I don't think this is something I'm going to debate out of someone. So I guess I take the agree to disagree status unless someone really wants me to start pulling out the research. Which I'm happy to do if they ask!

We aren't great friends (and now never will be, I'm sure) but we part of the same mom's group. She's a new member and up until yesterday I thought we could really click. There are other things nudging me to step back and/or leave the group so if it comes to that so be it. There's one other AP mom in the group (MDC mama!) but otherwise varying degrees of mainstream in terms of discipline, CIO, etc.

You're right: I'm sure there's other parenting decisions in the background that I'd really disagree with as well.

Maybe I should approach with the FTT info? She stopped nursing her first, for example, quite early. I think she said it was supply issues, but I can't be positive. Avoiding the emotional issues at all, we know the strict schedule can harm milk supply.

Really, though, I'll probably repeat the mantra of crying as communication, include some of what I wrote about the give-and-take of a new baby, explain some AP, and drop it.

Unrelated, but I agreed to let her borrow a bunch of my idea books young children before all this. Now I really want them back ASAP!









I really, really don't think I can be around this family at all now.


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## Zuzu822 (Oct 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TheGirls* 
Ah. I think this explains a post of yours elsewhere.









Yep. I was hoping you might see this thread.

Quote:

I've read the book (I own the book, actually, it was given to me as a gift and I didn't want to give it away for fear that someone else would actually think it was a GOOD idea.) And honestly the worst thing in it for me is the way the method doesn't seem to allow the baby to communicate at all. Or, it doesn't allow the mother to respond to the baby's communications. Or something, I don't know.

I've used the analogy of an elderly person before. As in, when my grandmother (died of Alzheimers a few years ago) was unable to speak or understand much, sometimes she cried out in the night or at other inconvenient times. I would have been livid (as would most people) if her caretaker had ignored her cries just because it wasn't time to respond to her. I don't know of anyone who would think it would be ok to leave her crying out in her room without at least attempting to comfort her. And as an adult, she didn't need nourishment in the night...

Sorry, I'm rambling. I'm frustrated by this turn of events also, and by some of the other mamas in our group who do/have done CIO. I really wish I could come up with a more constructive response than stunned silence...
Can I borrow it? I'd like to really read it thoroughly. I've only flipped in the stores and visited the website.

The example of your grandmother is exactly the sort of thing I always think of, but never say either.









You'll have to fill me in on some of the other CIO events. I've long suspected, but never heard exactly who/when/how. That sounds odd; I don't really WANT to know, but yet it explains so much. I feel very excluded in the group (related to this and a few other things) and honestly I don't know if the benefits outweigh the negatives anymore...


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## bethanymama (Jun 16, 2009)

It seems to me that some people honestly don't know how to take care of a baby, if they don't CIO, or do babywise, or whatever it is they do. I've had multiple people, my mom included, say things like, but what do you *do* if you don't let them CIO? She might be open to other ways, if you tell her what works for you...


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

My very good friend was a baby-wiser- she has older kids now but she loosely followed a schedule. She always fed them on demand but did allow them to cio as infants, the most being 10 mins or so. It worked really well for her and she recommended the book to me as a new mom with the instructions that some of it was ok and some of the advice was silly. I can't stand Ezzo, and told her so, but the point is that mothers who use baby-wise are obviously on a continuum of crazy-scheduled to more relaxed-scheduled. If this woman in your group is on the relaxed side it might be possible for you guys to be friends still. I would have missed out on a beautiful friend if I had decided not to pursue friendship b/c of it.


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## Bokonon (Aug 29, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bethanymama* 
It seems to me that some people honestly don't know how to take care of a baby, if they don't CIO, or do babywise, or whatever it is they do. I've had multiple people, my mom included, say things like, but what do you *do* if you don't let them CIO? She might be open to other ways, if you tell her what works for you...

ITA.

I think it's so discombobulating for parents when they formula feed and do CIO, and then they have a hard time with childcare issues there aren't any "shortcuts" for, like potty training, temper tantrums, etc.

Whoever said parenting would be easy?


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## karyncake (May 19, 2008)

One of my closest friends used this method with her baby who is just a couple of weeks younger than mine. We are still great friends and our children are on par with most of their abilities, if anything my daughter is a tad more boisterous and hers is a very kind and gentle soul. We dont really discuss our routines especially now our children are at an age where they are getting into all sorts of mischief and they both more or less sleep through the night, eat the same food and run at the same pace.
I was raised in a very chaotic household and would have loved to have had more structure and routine in my childhood but unfortunately my parents had bigger issues and fish to fry than to give us more than the basic neccessities and left us to it. I honestly beleive that you need to do what works for you as a family and as long as you love and take care of your child and are happy it shouldnt matter what method you follow. I coslept with my parents some of the time until i was 7, my husband was one of the ones that was left down the bottom of the garden for a good scream, by the time my youngest sister (my mums 6th) came along she was left to cry it out and we all grew up to be decent responsible human beings.
Dont rule out a friendship with someone based on their childcare methods, you might lose out on a great friend.


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## confustication (Mar 18, 2006)

I also have a friend who uses the Babywise approach, and even offered to lend me her copy of the book a couple months ago. She has twin daughters the same age my daughter is, and a baby who is two months older than my son. In so many ways there are a lot of parallels in our lives, but the way we choose to parent our kids early on doesn't match up. Generally, we just stay away frm that subject and stick to areas of commonality (we both homeschool, we're both 'outsiders' in our small rural town, etc and so on...)

Her kids are really great kids, and unless I saw one of them struggling, I wouldn't bring up her parenting choices in a critical way. FTT has never been anissue for them, and they seem happy and well adjusted. It's not my path, but she seems to manage it in a way that is not harmful, so I don't overthink it.


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## CrunchyChristianMama (Dec 5, 2008)

I wouldn't leave a friendship over it. Many moms take the schedule ideas out of it and ignore the CIO portion.

Quote:

but it is philosophy of raising your children to provide their needs before they need it and believing that implementing a feeding/wake time/sleeping schedule *based on what the parents believe is in the best interest of their children.*

The part I bolded is specifically what I'd like to respond to since I believe in trusting that the baby knows what she/he needs and given time they will develop their own rhythm and the family will blend. I kind of imagine it as breathing or the tides or something. Give and take and the new baby is worked into the family and the family works around the baby.
This part stood out to me. Your friend does believe she is doing what is in the best interest of her children and that is all the more any one can ask for of a parent. You both just have different ideas of what is best for children, and that's ok.

I would personally just direct her over the the MDC boards. Tell her how much you like having other moms to discuss issues that arise. It's not your job to change her mind, nor should you feel responsible for her coming to different conclusions than you.


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## Marylizah (Jun 17, 2005)

Ok, some questions for you.

Are her children FTT? Does her newborn seem to be excessively small? Does the baby cry constantly around you because s/he's hungry?

Does her older child show signs of hunger/neglect/abuse?

No?

Then it's none of your business unless she asks you for your advice.

I understand and can sympathize with the difficulty of being friends with people who have very different parenting or life philosophies. But unless her children are beaten, neglected or otherwise abused, that's just what it is: a different philosophy. You are convinced you are right, she is sure she is right. Trying to "convert" her will serve no purpose but to alienate her; then you *really* won't know how her kids are doing.

I love, love, love AP'ing. It works wonderfully for me. But there are other parents out there doing very different things who love and care for their kids. We may not agree, but it would be nice if we could at least have a dialogue with each other.


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## Zuzu822 (Oct 5, 2006)

Wow, thanks for all the responses! I wrote a long message to her this morning describing how we parent since she described her routine, and then decided not to send it.







It was never my intention to try to tell her she was wrong or change her mind, as much as to try to explain my perspective. I can ignore it as much as possible and offer support when/if she has more problems with milk supply. If corporal punishment or CIO becomes a constant topic of conversation in my moms' group, I'll leave the group.

Thanks again for all your thoughts!


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marylizah* 
Ok, some questions for you.

Are her children FTT? Does her newborn seem to be excessively small? Does the baby cry constantly around you because s/he's hungry?

Does her older child show signs of hunger/neglect/abuse?

No?

Then it's none of your business unless she asks you for your advice.

I understand and can sympathize with the difficulty of being friends with people who have very different parenting or life philosophies. But unless her children are beaten, neglected or otherwise abused, that's just what it is: a different philosophy. You are convinced you are right, she is sure she is right. Trying to "convert" her will serve no purpose but to alienate her; then you *really* won't know how her kids are doing.

I love, love, love AP'ing. It works wonderfully for me. But there are other parents out there doing very different things who love and care for their kids. We may not agree, but it would be nice if we could at least have a dialogue with each other.

ITA. How would you feel if a Babywise believer tried to push her philosophy on me, basically telling me that AP is wrong and Babywise is right? We've both done our research and come to different conclusions, let's repect each other's decisions.


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## justmandy (Sep 3, 2004)

Okay, confession time, I dabbled in babywise with my two oldest.







I just didn't know any better. I didn't read the books or take the classes but my very good friends did and I adopted some of the practices. I was your typical formula feeding, CIO, TV watching, mainstream mama. I wasn't ignorant, I read lots of articals adn magazines and really thought I was doing what was best.

Not everything was working and one day when I was having a very hard day, I found MDC. Slowly I started seeing this very different type of parenting, I thought some things were CRAZY...breastfeeding a toddler?? Co-sleeping? Baby wearing? CLOTH DIAPERING??? These things were forign and strange...until I met more AP families. I had my third and by that time I had integrated AP into our lives alot. We EBFed, co-slept, CDed, and wore the baby all the time till he was over 18 months. He BFed till 16 months, I wanted to make it to 3 years but believe in Child led weaning and he was done.

This time, I'm homebirthing and can't wait to bust out my slings and watch someone's eyes poop out when lo toddles up for some boo-boo at the park.

I would discourage you from breaking off the friendship-friendships are built on much more tehn parenting styles/beliefes. You may be the key to change in this woman's life. She may not do a 180 but she may be gentler, she may hold her baby more and realise that raising a child who's thoughts and needs are taken seriously actually produces a much more self reliant adult.


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## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

justmandy, that's a lovely story.

I was a member of a moms and tots group, and all were mainstream except me. Some of them thought I was absolutely nuts I am sure, and I thought them doing CIO and scheduling was horrid. But I didn't convert anyone, and no one converted me.

However, one momma moved ever so slightly towards AP by coming to me privately for an alternate to CIO. Because she approached me first, she was open. So I gave her my copy of the No Cry Sleep Solution, and she quit CIO. Nothing life shattering here, but small steps. We still see each other occasionally, and she is slowly moving over to the "ap side" (if you can call it that) with her 2nd DC. My point to the OP is, unless she asks and is open, I don't think you offering her information, any information, will change her. Just might tick her off though. Over the long run though, if she sees you and your dc and how you do things, she may slowly, very slowly, adopt some of that.


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## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bokonon* 
ITA.

I think it's so discombobulating for parents when they *formula feed* and do CIO, and then they have a hard time with childcare issues there aren't any "shortcuts" for, like potty training, temper tantrums, etc.

Whoever said parenting would be easy?


Excuse me, please. I mean this in the most polite manner.

I BF my first two and FF my last one. (long story ~ I *could not* BF ~not going to explain right now) It was not a shortcut. It was a PITA to clean bottles, warm bottles and deal with the mess. BF was a lot easier.

It is never black and white. There are many shades of gray. You can take some AP practices and mix them with the good parts of other philosophies.

Parenting is *never* easy, IMHO.


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## azgirl (Nov 27, 2006)

I wanted to add to what others have said: not everyone who follows Babywise or non-ap methods lets their child CIO for hours or until they throw up, etc. (this really is how I interpret some of those methods) All of the people who recommended Babywise to me are very loving parents. I was grossed out by the book because I took it literally. I really think that the average mainstream mom that you "click" with is more "attached" than not. Also, I have started to realize that a lot of people end up on MDC or attachment parenting because they have high-needs babies. If your baby fusses for a few minutes before falling asleep when you put her in her crib at the scheduled time, you can easily schedule and not think twice about it.
We all know that mom who tells the story about feeling horrible about her baby crying hysterically for an hour while her heart was breaking etc. THAT is when I ALWAYS say something about following our instincts and that there are other ways to do things. I am honestly starting to realize that not all parents who use schedule are ignoring a wailing baby. I would assume that your friend has kids that are amendable to and easy to schedule until you hear otherwise. She sounds like a great friend. They are priceless!


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Quote:

Ok, some questions for you.

Are her children FTT? Does her newborn seem to be excessively small? Does the baby cry constantly around you because s/he's hungry?

Does her older child show signs of hunger/neglect/abuse?

No?

Then it's none of your business unless she asks you for your advice.

I understand and can sympathize with the difficulty of being friends with people who have very different parenting or life philosophies. But unless her children are beaten, neglected or otherwise abused, that's just what it is: a different philosophy. You are convinced you are right, she is sure she is right. Trying to "convert" her will serve no purpose but to alienate her; then you *really* won't know how her kids are doing.

I love, love, love AP'ing. It works wonderfully for me. But there are other parents out there doing very different things who love and care for their kids. We may not agree, but it would be nice if we could at least have a dialogue with each other.
I agree. I know parents who are much more scheduley than me and their children don't seem to have suffered. One mother is stricter than I'd wish, and some of tje tings she does make me cringe a little - but her children are happy, well-adjusted, adore her etc, so how can I berate her for doing it "wrong"? By any measurable standards her parenting has succeeded. And my SIL just had a baby who's SO easy-going he doesn't mind being scheduled at all - he wakes up biddably to feed when she rouses him, falls asleep afterwards, and doesn't give two hoots about being in a bassinet rather than a sling or the family bed. _It works for them._ I think MDCers often demonise women who do it differently, even when the results speak for themselves. Yes, there's a line of neglect/abuse, but it's not drawn neatly between What We Do and What They Do.


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## Bokonon (Aug 29, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TinkerBelle* 
Excuse me, please. I mean this in the most polite manner.

I BF my first two and FF my last one. (long story ~ I *could not* BF ~not going to explain right now) It was not a shortcut. It was a PITA to clean bottles, warm bottles and deal with the mess. BF was a lot easier.

It is never black and white. There are many shades of gray. You can take some AP practices and mix them with the good parts of other philosophies.

Parenting is *never* easy, IMHO.

I know, and I apologize for the overgeneralization. I was more thinking about mothers who choose while pregnant that they will formula feed because they have heard that breastfeeding is hard, and that formula-fed babies sleep better.


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## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

You like this mom. It sounds like her 2 y.o. is doing well ("delightful") - so it seems like her parenting choices are working for her family. I agree with all who suggest you respect her choices and give the friendship a chance.

If I had to do everything and believe everything the same as my friends, I would live in a very small, boring world. If her beliefs are too difficult for you, or a clash develops because of it, you can deal with it at that time.


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## fairymom (Sep 15, 2008)

I only read the original post.

I did things very mainstream w/my oldest dc and eventually it felt very wrong and made my mommy guilt HUGE. so on my own I started to do things that felt natural- I was on lo #4 when i found out there was a term for how I was doing things: AP. Had anyone said I was doing it wrong when I was 1st starting out it'd have made my guilt so much worse but probably not have changed it- I would've wound up thinking I was that much worse of a mom and tired to find things (even harsher) to try.

But no one did- I just got encouragement and good examples of how others were parenting. Eventually the cries got to me and I couldn't do it anymore and had to respond with what felt right instead of what was being told to me as right (thru books/ped/tv).

Mothering has become (IMO) very competative and unsupportive in general (but I view society as a whole to be). If "we" are doing something "different" it's "wrong" and coupled w/insercuity women face and learn growing up- I feel moms are always on the defencessive and we have closed ourselves off to learning from one another and instead are judged and judge each other.

IMO I wouldn't say anything to her- I would just model what is important to me and give suggestions only when asked. She would probably feel really judged by you. What works for you may not work for her and vice-versa. And it sounds as if you like her freindship so why does she have to conform to your values? If in the future you find that her parenting style really goes against what you believe than you may have to revisit the issue and see if its a relationship you want to continue.

GL- and remember we all have our own paths and we are only here to lend a hand and offer support when others want and ask for it.


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## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

so as long as the baby is not FTT (not dying, basically) babywise is just an alternate way of parenting that works for some families and makes the world more diverse and interesting?

OP, I'd mention something. Other than that, I don't see what you can do...
I agree with this:

_I would discourage you from breaking off the friendship-friendships are built on much more tehn parenting styles/beliefes. You may be the key to change in this woman's life. She may not do a 180 but she may be gentler, she may hold her baby more and realise that raising a child who's thoughts and needs are taken seriously actually produces a much more self reliant adult_.


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## itsmyturn (Aug 17, 2009)

If she is not pushing her ideas on you than I don't see why it needs to effect your friendship.


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## Loralz (Feb 20, 2009)

I agree that you should keep the friendship, as long as you feel strong enough in your beliefs that you won't get confused. I say this because I have a friend who is a BW and is now swatting her baby's (15 months old) hand when he misbehaves. She has only done that once around me. I was on the phone when it happened and didn't see it, but heard it. It sickened me.

However, the more we're together, the more she sees how there are other types of discipline and they are just as effective, if not more so. She is seeing that her son's behavior is normal, not a moral offense that needs to be controlled.

I do disagree that BW is just another parenting style, because it isn't. It sets up a lot of barriers between parents and children. It encourages control (to an unhealthy degree!) of a child at all times and makes things into moral issues.

If your friend had supply issues with her first, it is more than likely because she followed the schedule. The scheduled feedings that are listed out lead a lot of women to lose their supply by 4 or 8 months. But if your friend is a confirmed BW, here is a link to a modified schedule that will allow her to nurse longer: http://www.angelfire.com/md2/moodyfamily/routine.html

Here's more info for you from a blog I follow on BW/GKGW. http://www.chewymom.com/category/gfiezzobabywise/

Between the blogs, reading the book myself, having friends who regret having done BW, and the debates on it I follow (such as on http://messageboards.ivillage.com/n/...msg=9321.1&x=y ) it is an issue that is not a matter of different parenting philosophy, but one that can lead to heartbreaking results, if followed as given in the book.

While a lot of women do use their common sense when reading and implementing the book, there are much better books out there too.

All right. Stepping off my soapbox now.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

If she's got a pleasant two year old that she treats well, maybe she is able to take and modify the few good things (all found in other books)? How about a response that assumes she's not being abusive?:
"While you know enough about child development to take only the very few good things from that book, you should be cautious about recommending it to other mothers as countless babies have been hurt by the misinformation in that book. Check out www.ezzo.info for some of the stories of what's happened when people who don't know about normal child development try to parent from that book.

Some people like the book because 'it's like there isn't even a baby in the house', can you imagine?? It's really scary what ignorant and bad parents can do with that book."


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

She had supply issues with her two year old? Tell her NOW, that scheduling leads to supply issues.


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## Noelle C. (Sep 3, 2009)

Babywise is nothing short of abuse. Babies have days where they grow faster and need to eat more often and days of slower growth. Babies don't cry for fun. Not feeding because it's not time will only teach a baby that needs won't be met. I can see trying mildly trying to get a baby to sleep at night, but forcing a strict schedule on a baby is insanity.

I hope your friend is only dabbling and has no intention of following that book closely, especially with feeding.


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## *EarthMama* (Aug 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smokering* 
I agree. I know parents who are much more scheduley than me and their children don't seem to have suffered. One mother is stricter than I'd wish, and some of tje tings she does make me cringe a little - but her children are happy, well-adjusted, adore her etc, so how can I berate her for doing it "wrong"? By any measurable standards her parenting has succeeded. And my SIL just had a baby who's SO easy-going he doesn't mind being scheduled at all - he wakes up biddably to feed when she rouses him, falls asleep afterwards, and doesn't give two hoots about being in a bassinet rather than a sling or the family bed. _It works for them._ I think MDCers often demonise women who do it differently, even when the results speak for themselves. Yes, there's a line of neglect/abuse, but it's not drawn neatly between What We Do and What They Do.

Very well said.


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## *EarthMama* (Aug 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fairymom* 
I only read the original post.

I did things very mainstream w/my oldest dc and eventually it felt very wrong and made my mommy guilt HUGE. so on my own I started to do things that felt natural- I was on lo #4 when i found out there was a term for how I was doing things: AP. Had anyone said I was doing it wrong when I was 1st starting out it'd have made my guilt so much worse but probably not have changed it- I would've wound up thinking I was that much worse of a mom and tired to find things (even harsher) to try.

But no one did- I just got encouragement and good examples of how others were parenting. Eventually the cries got to me and I couldn't do it anymore and had to respond with what felt right instead of what was being told to me as right (thru books/ped/tv).

Mothering has become (IMO) very competative and unsupportive in general (but I view society as a whole to be). If "we" are doing something "different" it's "wrong" and coupled w/insercuity women face and learn growing up- I feel moms are always on the defencessive and we have closed ourselves off to learning from one another and instead are judged and judge each other.

IMO I wouldn't say anything to her- I would just model what is important to me and give suggestions only when asked. She would probably feel really judged by you. What works for you may not work for her and vice-versa. And it sounds as if you like her freindship so why does she have to conform to your values? If in the future you find that her parenting style really goes against what you believe than you may have to revisit the issue and see if its a relationship you want to continue.

GL- *and remember we all have our own paths and we are only here to lend a hand and offer support when others want and ask for it.*

Also very wise mama! I







the community we have here and the community we can create in the real world, differences included. We truly can learn a lot from each other- especially about ourselves. If nothing else at least those that we differ from offer us a chance to reaffirm what we know in our hearts to be right, for us. Just as there is no one-size-fits-all with children, so it is with parenting. I am VERY AP and some times I struggle with mamas who have opposite approaches, yet I try to value the lessons I learn from them and feel that I grow as a parent and as a person because of it.

I also want to mention that BW does seem to be abusive when carried out strictly and that is both saddening and enraging to me. However, all we can do is raise _our_ families as we see fit. If we could end all war, hunger, suffering, and abuse in the world then surely we would! The fact of the matter is we don't have control over other people and generally people learn best through others examples _not_ through control, that is what started most of these world issues in the first place... just my


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## Zuzu822 (Oct 5, 2006)

How funny to see this thread resurface! I'd forgotten about it and never read mote than the first few replies.

Here's an update: this gal and I have become good friends and I've learned that while she's a scheduler she's not a hardcore CIO-er, doesn't spank, and is a very warm, loving mama. Her newest baby (5 months already) is as sweet as can be and clearly cherished. They haven't done any kind of "training" as her DD mostly fell into the routine they wanted. Her supply doesn't seem to be suffering and the baby is clearly very healthy. Her son and my boys are great playmates and the mom and I have more in common than not.

I think my original post was a knee-jerk reaction to hearing the word "Babywise." While I agree that this book CAN be abusive and should generally be discouraged, my friend seems to have used it mostly positively. Her baby is not crying for hours from hunger or alone in her crib at night.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

I have a long-distance friend who told me Baby Wise was her bible. My jaw dropped to the floor.
However, she quite clearly adores her babies and they are the light of the world. She did not bf so maybe the scheduling works better with formula? I don't know.

That said, I still wish that book didn't exist.


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## Hannah32 (Dec 23, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smokering* 
I think MDCers often demonise women who do it differently, even when the results speak for themselves. Yes, there's a line of neglect/abuse, but it's not drawn neatly between What We Do and What They Do.

As someone expecting her first baby this summer, I completely agree. I really enjoy this forum, but it's undeniable that it has an edge to it. Don't get me wrong. I run like heck from anything that smacks of Christian fundamentalism, like Ezzo seems to, but not everyone is going to be able to go completely without sleep for the first two years. I know that we're not going to be able to.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

I haven't read all the responses, but my SIL did Babywise, too. For her, it meant that the first six months of her baby's life she set the alarm and woke up every two hours and woke up her baby and fed her. And all through the day she did that too. I lived with them, and it seemed like a total exercise in frustration for my SIL as she tried to get her baby to wake up and eat when she was full and snoozing, but not too hard on the baby.

So I think there are lots of different ways that people "Babywise". Ezzo would probably have been very scornful of my SIL, as she never once made her baby CIO, but she considered herself a hardcore Babywiser.


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## JL83 (Aug 7, 2009)

Someone who follows babywise is not someone I would knowingly spend any time with. There is no way I would want my children around that kind of person, and I would not want be around such a person.


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## Asiago (Jul 1, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bokonon* 
Maybe tell her that the AAP has put out a warning against the practices outlined in the book, and are trying to get the book banned?

I just found an article from 1998 that AAP associated the book's practices with failure to thrive, dehydration, poor milk supply, involuntary early weaning and so on.
http://aapnews.aappublications.org/c...stract/14/4/21


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

well, when i became a mom, i had no idea what i was doing. i read the most popular mainstream parenting books, and i looked to my mom and sisters for help and advice. i'm sure i've made a million mistakes and poor choices, but fortunately i've somehow managed to evolve into a very gentle and loving mama. maybe you should give your friend the benefit of the doubt. she most likely believes that she is acting on her child's best interest. i would look at this as an opportunity to simply talk to her about it, yk? don't judge. don't preach. just talk and then listen. i have been very appreciative of friends that support me in my parenting journey, and help me see things from a different perspective. my "parenting philosphy" is totally different than when i first began this journey. and if i had to do it all over, i'd choose differently i'm sure, knowing what i do now. wouldn't most of us?

my pastor's wife came to me last year and asked if i would co-lead a bible study. it was "growing kids god's way" by the ezzo's. her intentions were genuinely good, as she wanted to help young moms in our church (she is also a new mom). i didn't judge her, but i simply saw it as an opportunity to talk with her and help her be better informed. it was a wonderful opportunity for me to share a different perspective & we ended up doing "graced based parenting" instead. her little boy is 2 now, and she plans to be a "spank free" parent


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

Wow. I have a wide range of parenting philosophies in my circle, but babywise is not and never will be one of them.

This has nothing to do with being tolerant or politically correct or "not tearing mamas down" (whatever that means).

Those who are suggesting the above...have you even read the books?


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I think that if the majority of women in your mother's group are advocating scheduling and cry-it-out, this may not be such an edifying group to hang around with.

But as far as individual friendships, I wouldn't turn your friend away if you like her. I also agree with the poster who said you should let her know that scheduling can cause supply issues.

We were good friends with another family (they've since moved) where the mom followed Babywise. And what struck me was how hard this mom was working to ensure some semblance of order -- whereas my own children, without any work on my part, gradually got into their own regular schedules as time went on.

Their nursings gradually got further apart, and they gradually started sleeping more solidly. The other mama seemed not to realize that a newborn doesn't stay like a newborn forever. Much of the Babywise stuff (and much mainstream parenting) seems to be based on the idea that babies will stay babies forever, if you don't "make" them learn that "the whole world doesn't revolve around them."

Through practicing Attachment Parenting, I've learned to see human nature in a much more positive way: I now feel that children are born with a natural desire to learn and to have postive relationships with others. Now I feel that babies are born "right" within themselves -- and crying (and, later on, acting out) is the way they communicate when things are out of whack and they need our help to get that sense of rightness back (Sears).

Babytraining philosophies come at it from the opposite perspective -- the idea that babies are born "wrong" and self-centered, that crying (and, later, acting out), is their means of trying to manipulate their parents and get them divided against one another, so that the children can get control of the family.

So, parenting becomes all, or largely, about parents presenting a "united front" against the children, and getting control of *them* (because babytrainers see it as someone always *has* to be in control, someone always *has* to occupy the top of the hierarchy -- so if parents are not controlling then children will naturally step up to fill in that "void").

So, the different parenting philosophies are essentially reflections of radically different world views, especially different views of human nature. Those of us who've exprienced major world-view shifts within ourselves, know that it's not an overnight endeavor. And, for many of us, our shift began when we started getting to know other people who thought very differently than we did. And aren't we glad we had a chance to get to know these other people, even if we thought they were totally bonkers (and irresponsible parents) at first?


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