# Which one: RF to 35lbs or lower RF limit w/ RF tether?



## mamayes (Jul 11, 2007)

It seems that there are no 35lb RF seats that also have RF tether. Does anyone know differently?

If that's the case is it better to go with with the higher 35lb RF limit without RF tether (like Triumph Advance, new Recaro) or the lower 33lb RF limit with RF tethering (like Marathon).

Anyone?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Personally I would choose the better seat. I've yet to see confirmation that the recaros won't have a rear tether option. Last official info I saw said they did.

I wouldn't choose a triumph unless I had no other option.

-Angela


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## simplehome (Jul 13, 2004)

Now I'm confused....I've seen several websites touting that the new Recaro seats can be tethered RF, but I went and checked the PDF of the Owner's Manual, and it makes no mention of tethering RF. Any techs out there know the truth?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *simplehome* 
Now I'm confused....I've seen several websites touting that the new Recaro seats can be tethered RF, but I went and checked the PDF of the Owner's Manual, and it makes no mention of tethering RF. Any techs out there know the truth?

Where did you find the PDF of the owner's manual?

Nevermind! Found it.

-Angela


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## mamayes (Jul 11, 2007)

I've been lurking over at car-safety.org. Some of them say they have talked to Recaro people and they're saying no rearface tether. I realize that's info passed through a few lines, but didn't sound promising given that it's never mentioned on their own website, etc.


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## All together ooky (Jun 3, 2004)

It's not mentioned in the manual so it's doubtful the Recaros can be rear-faced tethered. The tether is also only a single strap rather than the V-strap like the Britax/Radians which is probably another indicator that it can't RF tether.

Personally I'd go with the seat you like better and that you find easier to use. Unless you're rear-facing in a truck with the window directly behind the seat-then I'd go for a Britax or Radian.


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## angie3096 (Apr 4, 2007)

There are two seats that RF to 35 pound and also have a RF tether. But nobody wants them.
The Britax Diplomat is very short, and would most likely be outgrown RF by height long before 35 pounds.
The Britax Advocate has some high tech harness tightness indicator gizmo on it that has jacked the price up to $400. As far as I know those are the only ones! And I think they aren't actually released until next month...


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## mamayes (Jul 11, 2007)

Man, I'm so torn. I just don't know what makes a seat better....the extra 2 pounds rearfacing or the tether. I want to say the extra 2 pounds rearfacing. But I also have reservations since those two 35lb seats are so new.... And do they know if not having the tether would make them less safe? Hmmmmm.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

I would rather have a tethered RF seat than one with the extra 2 lbs RF capacity. The only reason I'd pick the 35 lb seat is if I had a 32 pound 12 month old and I wanted to keep them RF longer. Of course, it would be great if we could have both! I was really hoping the Recaro would be it for us.


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## snitker79 (Apr 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *All together ooky* 
Unless you're rear-facing in a truck with the window directly behind the seat-then I'd go for a Britax or Radian.


Why does this make a difference if they are in a truck?


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## crazydiamond (May 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *snitker79* 
Why does this make a difference if they are in a truck?

I think because if there is no rear-facing tether, the seat will definitely rebound. The child may then potentially hit the window with his face/head. The RFing tether does a lot to minimize the rebound.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamayes* 
Man, I'm so torn. I just don't know what makes a seat better....the extra 2 pounds rearfacing or the tether. I want to say the extra 2 pounds rearfacing. But I also have reservations since those two 35lb seats are so new.... And do they know if not having the tether would make them less safe? Hmmmmm.

It's not so much that NOT having a tether makes them less safe, as having a tether would make them MORE safe









On the weight it would depend on how old the child is in question. My dd is 30lbs and 3yrs old. She should be fine in her boulevard until at least 3.5yrs. At 3.5 yrs I'm okay with her being ff. If she were 2yrs old and pushing 33 already, then I'd want a 35lb seat. Make sense?

-Angela


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## All together ooky (Jun 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crazydiamond* 
I think because if there is no rear-facing tether, the seat will definitely rebound. The child may then potentially hit the window with his face/head. The RFing tether does a lot to minimize the rebound.

Yes, that's why.


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## snitker79 (Apr 7, 2007)

But what if the truck doesn't have the spots to anchor a rf tether? Then it doesn't matter either way, right?

The reason I'm more concerned now is because my husband drives a truck with a backseat/extended cab. I bought (waiting for) a Recaro for my car since that's what she rides in the most and we bought a Scenera to use until it comes in. The Scenera will mostly be used in his truck and in my mom or his mom's car when they take her. I know the Scenera doesn't tether rf and I don't really think his truck has an anchor anyway. I'm definately not going to spend another $300 on a carseat to use in just in his truck. But how can I make the best of the situation?

Thanks for all of the clarification.
Miranda


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *snitker79* 
But what if the truck doesn't have the spots to anchor a rf tether? Then it doesn't matter either way, right?

Just to answer this part- RF tethers are designed to loop around any fixed part. Usually part of the seat in front- like where it bolts to the floor.

-Angela


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## All together ooky (Jun 3, 2004)

Yeah, most vehicles don't have a "RF tether anchor". You just attach it to a fixed point, like a front seat post.

Are there headrests in the truck? Then the child would rebound into that instead of the window.

Also, I'd be more concerned if the child is on the larger side of RF (closer to the limits). A small child has less chance of rebounding into the window.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Have you tried any of the seats in your vehicle or your child in any of the seats? Have you played with any of the seats to determine ease of use? How old, how much does your child weigh and what is her/his height? Historically, what has been your childs growth rate? What is your budget? Just a few more questions to ask yourself before making a decision. I will personally feel more comfortable giving you my opinion if you could elaborate a bit more on your situation.


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## Synchro246 (Aug 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Personally I would choose the better seat. I've yet to see confirmation that the recaros won't have a rear tether option. Last official info I saw said they did.

I wouldn't choose a triumph unless I had no other option.

-Angela

I spoke with Gail at Recaro and her official answer was that RF tetether is allowable IF there is an anchor for it. They are not including the d-ring to loop around something for tethering.
So, basicly NO because it's just unlikely to have a RF tether anchor, but it's not _disallowed_ like it is on so many seats.


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

IMO, unless you have a child that needs the 35# rfing limit (like a child who will hit that weight before 2 or has special needs and should be rfing) that 2# limit won't make that big of a deal, plus the shells are shorter so you might not make it to 35# anyways. AJ outgrew his Radian (33# limit) at 33 mos, well by 34 mos he was too tall to rf in our Cosco seat anyways so it wasn't a big deal. Evan will be 5 I'm guessing before he hits 33# so those extra 2# aren't a big deal in that case.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Synchro246* 
I spoke with Gail at Recaro and her official answer was that RF tetether is allowable IF there is an anchor for it. They are not including the d-ring to loop around something for tethering.
So, basicly NO because it's just unlikely to have a RF tether anchor, but it's not _disallowed_ like it is on so many seats.

Harumph. Well, they lost the sale from me.

-Angela


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## angie3096 (Apr 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
Harumph. Well, they loss the sale from me.

-Angela









:
Me too!


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## angie3096 (Apr 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamayes* 
It seems that there are no 35lb RF seats that also have RF tether. Does anyone know differently?


There are all of a sudden a lot of rumours floating around that Britax is going to be coming out with several more 35 pound RF seats in the next year. I'm not sure if they are just re-testing the seats they have and re-labeling them or replacing them with similar seats and naming them different things. I am so glad I haven't had the baby yet; hopefully by the time he outgrows the SS1, they will have a 65lb convertible that RF to 35 and does not cost $400. Rumours only, so far. We may know more after the ABC Kids Expo in Las Vegas (which is the end of this week!). There will be Britax reps there and I'm sure all the techs will be hounding them about it.

Anyway, how long can you wait?


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Yes, the new Britax Diplomat & Advocate will have a 35 lb RF limit & will tether RF. They are super spendy, though.

ETA: Link


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Just 'cause I'm a geek... Is there any link to info on the advocate yet?

-Angela


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## mamayes (Jul 11, 2007)

I have a little guy, but even he wouldn't last that much longer in the Diplomat by height.

My story is that I have a convertible but wanted to get another with a higher RF weight limit now that I have more money. DS is 1.5 and weights 24 lbs. I wonder if he would outgrow the 35lb RF seats by height first anyway. I guess that part is sort of a guessing game.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Britax Advocate


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamayes* 
I have a little guy, but even he wouldn't last that much longer in the Diplomat by height.

My story is that I have a convertible but wanted to get another with a higher RF weight limit now that I have more money. DS is 1.5 and weights 24 lbs. I wonder if he would outgrow the 35lb RF seats by height first anyway. I guess that part is sort of a guessing game.

The Diplomat is like the Roundabout, with TSIP and fancy electronic stuff & a higher RF limit.

The Advocate is like the Boulevard, with fancy electronic stuff & a higher RF limit.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamayes* 
I have a little guy, but even he wouldn't last that much longer in the Diplomat by height.

Yep. The diplomat is the size of the roundabout. I would never waste money on it.

-Angela


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Britax Advocate

thanks!

-Angela


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## mamayes (Jul 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *All together ooky* 
Personally I'd go with the seat you like better and that you find easier to use. Unless you're rear-facing in a truck with the window directly behind the seat-then I'd go for a Britax or Radian.

What's the diff. b/w the Blvd. and Radian65? I can't find one besides the Radian being more narrow. Oh, and $100!! Which is why I'm asking...

TIA!


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## angie3096 (Apr 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamayes* 
What's the diff. b/w the Blvd. and Radian65? I can't find one besides the Radian being more narrow. Oh, and $100!! Which is why I'm asking...

TIA!

Mostly ease of use, IMO. Comfort and ease of installation. The Radian doesn't have lockoffs; it comes with a locking clip instead. It also has a really narrow belt path. It doesn't fit well in many cars and many frustrated people have had to return theirs. The straps are close together and that bugs some kids. It has a single point tether instead of a double point tether like a Britax; I'm not sure how that affects it, safety-wise, but I assume it must.

My daughter does not like her Radian NEARLY as well as she liked her Marathon. It's not as comfortable. And she lets me know it! I'm sure the BV has the same comfort level as the MA; meaning it would be much more comfy than a Radian. Also the BV has sidewings that offer side impact protection; the Radian does not.

On the plus side, the Radian fits anywhere, doesn't sit up on a base, installs and unistalls more easily (without a belt extender) on a plane, folds up for travel and has a carry strap. So if you either need 3 across or do a lot of air travel, the Radian is the better bet. If not, you'd probably prefer a Boulevard.

Oh, one more thing--the Radian will fit a taller child. It has a taller seat back and higher top slots. Which is why ours is getting more use these days, since dd is too tall for the Britax convertibles now


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## angie3096 (Apr 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Yes, the new Britax Diplomat & Advocate will have a 35 lb RF limit & will tether RF. They are super spendy, though.

ETA: Link

I meant aside from those; ones that we would actually want to buy...but again, rumors, only rumors...


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## mama_at_home (Apr 27, 2004)

nevermind, found it


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## mamayes (Jul 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angie3096* 
Also the BV has sidewings that offer side impact protection; the Radian does not.

I thought the Radian did have SIP, no?

"4-panel system of EPS safety foam for increased safety, including side-impact protection. "

From here:
http://www.elitecarseats.com/Sunshin...dian.pro#specs


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## angie3096 (Apr 4, 2007)

Okay, but it doesn't have the wings that the BV does. If you can sit the two seats side by side in a store somewhere, you'll see what I mean!







Personally, if I had to install the seat outboard and I had the choice between BV and Radian, I would pick the BV. I have no data, and no links, but it just *looks* a lot safer!


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

It's not tested for side impact protection. Only seats advertised as having "TISP" (true side impact protection) actually really have side impact protection.

Also with the boulevard, there's no rethreading of straps. There's a knob to adjust.

I've heard many complaints about installing the radian. The boulevard is as easy as it gets.

-Angela


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## skaterbabs (Jul 31, 2005)

Just being rear facing provides so much protection, that I wouldn't let the presence or lack of a rear-facing tether be the determining factor. Personally, I would go with the seat with the highest weight limit.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skaterbabs* 
Just being rear facing provides so much protection, that I wouldn't let the presence or lack of a rear-facing tether be the determining factor. Personally, I would go with the seat with the highest weight limit.

The rf tether DOES make a BIG difference in stability. After seeing that I won't put dd in a seat that doesn't tether RF. Especially if she's near the top of the weight range.

I might consider the higher range seat if the child was close to 33lbs young- under 2 for sure, maybe under 3. But for us, seeing as dd is 3 already and still only 30lbs, it wouldn't be worth it IMO.

(though as I mentioned, I would have gotten a recaro if it DID tether RF)

-Angela


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## mamayes (Jul 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
The rf tether DOES make a BIG difference in stability.

-Angela

OK, just trying to talk this out....what if I could get a really good install, no issues with stability, without the tether? I wish there were some studies done somewhere about tethering. So much of this seems like a guessing game to me because I can't find any evidence on different safety features. I'm wavering, obviously







: , but THIS morning I'm thinking I'd much rather have DS rearfacing longer in a solid seat than forward facing. The RF vs. FF argument is much more compelling than anything I've seen on the tether. Anyone?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamayes* 
OK, just trying to talk this out....what if I could get a really good install, no issues with stability, without the tether? I wish there were some studies done somewhere about tethering. So much of this seems like a guessing game to me because I can't find any evidence on different safety features. I'm wavering, obviously







: , but THIS morning I'm thinking I'd much rather have DS rearfacing longer in a solid seat than forward facing. The RF vs. FF argument is much more compelling than anything I've seen on the tether. Anyone?

How old is he? That's my big question at this point. If he's 18 months- heck yeah, keep him RF in an untethered seat. If he's 3.5yrs? I don't think it matters as much.

-Angela


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## linguistmama (Sep 25, 2006)

We were just debating this in our family. I would have ordered a Recaro convertible if they tethered rear facing. We got a Boulevard instead. The deciding factor for us is that dd is only 22 lbs at almost 2 1/2. If she grows at this rate she will be 4 by the time she is too big to RF. If I thought she would be 33 lbs at less than 2 I would have gotten a seat that rfs to 35 lbs.

Some people get a Cosco Scenera for the last 2 lbs since its cheap. If you decide you want the 35 lb limit I would buy a nice one if you can. Much easier to install etc. After reading this I won't buy another evenflo/cosco/dorel seat:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/s...l=chi-news-hed


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## mamayes (Jul 11, 2007)

He's 18 mos, 24 lb, 32" tall.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamayes* 
He's 18 mos, 24 lb, 32" tall.

That's a similar size to where dd was at that age (I think she was 25lbs) FWIW she's 3 yrs now and 30lbs. I think I'd get a boulevard.

-Angela


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamayes* 
He's 18 mos, 24 lb, 32" tall.

Thanks for the info. I feel more comfortable knowing some more about your personal situation. I would choose the seat with a 35 RF weight limit. The top 2 general recommendations that I give every parent is to keep your child in a 5 point restraint for as long as possible and keep them rear facing for as long as possible.


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## thepeach80 (Mar 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren* 
Thanks for the info. I feel more comfortable knowing some more about your personal situation. I would choose the seat with a 35 RF weight limit. The top 2 general recommendations that I give every parent is to keep your child in a 5 point restraint for as long as possible and keep them rear facing for as long as possible.

Yes, but a taller child will outgrow a 35# rfing seat in height before weight, it's hard to know which will happen first. Since her child isn't overly heavy and will make it to 2+ before hitting 33#, I don't see anything wrong w/ getting a 33# seat.

FTR, AJ was almost 25# at 1 and 30.25". He was able to stay rfing in his Radian till 33 mos (he hit 33#) and he outgrew his Scenera in height that next month at 34# so those extra 2# didn't really help, he was almost 37" then.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thepeach80* 
Yes, but a taller child will outgrow a 35# rfing seat in height before weight, it's hard to know which will happen first. Since her child isn't overly heavy and will make it to 2+ before hitting 33#, I don't see anything wrong w/ getting a 33# seat.

FTR, AJ was almost 25# at 1 and 30.25". He was able to stay rfing in his Radian till 33 mos (he hit 33#) and he outgrew his Scenera in height that next month at 34# so those extra 2# didn't really help, he was almost 37" then.

We can't see him in the seat so common sense dictates that the OP would have to try the seat out in her vehicle (s) and try her son out in them to make that decision. If she finds that either of those criteria is met with incompatibility of some sort, then her original general question would be a moot point. Where does he carry his height, what has been his growth rate up to now, does her vehicle (s) have a tethering point or anchor spot, can she get a good install with both of her seat choices, will she be moving the seat from vehicle to vehicle a lot, and does she find the seat easy to manuver, are some more considerations. I wish I had the time to be really detailed, convering everything on every post, but that is nearly impossible these days. Thanks for chiming in with your input.








FWIW, my oldest son outgrew his Roundabout, Marathon (and is within 1 pound of the Husky max limit) in weight before height so every parent/caregiver needs to look at their own situation.
OP, don't forget to get your seat install inspected. www.seatcheck.org


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## mamayes (Jul 11, 2007)

Thanks for all your insight, mamas! I REALLY appreciate it!


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## soygurl (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
The rf tether DOES make a BIG difference in stability. After seeing that I won't put dd in a seat that doesn't tether RF. Especially if she's near the top of the weight range.

I might consider the higher range seat if the child was close to 33lbs young- under 2 for sure, maybe under 3. But for us, seeing as dd is 3 already and still only 30lbs, it wouldn't be worth it IMO.

(though as I mentioned, I would have gotten a recaro if it DID tether RF)

-Angela

Here's my issue with the RF tether vs. 2 extra lbs. argument. It's my understanding in a side impact collision the back of the seat will rotate towards the point of impact further protecting the child by having the back of the seat absorb more of the impact. Now I know that belts and tethers stretch a great deal in a collision, but I can't help wondering if a RF tether might impede such a beneficial rotation in a side impact. And aren't side impact collisions one of the more common and more deadly collisions statistically? Now, I can totally appreciate the importance of a RF tether in a rear ending collision where you're vehicle was the one hit in the rear, but rear ending collisions tend to be lower speed than most other collisions right? And as for rebound in all other collisions, I've heard arguments that it is, in fact, _supposed to happen_ as a safety feature of sorts, where the rebounding of the seat absorbs crash forces so the child's body absorbs less force. Of course this could be wrong, but it's an argument I've heard several times.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamayes* 
OK, just trying to talk this out....what if I could get a really good install, no issues with stability, without the tether? I wish there were some studies done somewhere about tethering. So much of this seems like a guessing game to me because I can't find any evidence on different safety features. I'm wavering, obviously







: , but THIS morning I'm thinking I'd much rather have DS rearfacing longer in a solid seat than forward facing. The RF vs. FF argument is much more compelling than anything I've seen on the tether. Anyone?

I'm inclined to agree with you, for the reasons I've listed above. But please, someone correct me if I'm wrong!


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soygurl* 
Here's my issue with the RF tether vs. 2 extra lbs. argument. It's my understanding in a side impact collision the back of the seat will rotate towards the point of impact further protecting the child by having the back of the seat absorb more of the impact. Now I know that belts and tethers stretch a great deal in a collision, but I can't help wondering if a RF tether might impede such a beneficial rotation in a side impact. And aren't side impact collisions one of the more common and more deadly collisions statistically? Now, I can totally appreciate the importance of a RF tether in a rear ending collision where you're vehicle was the one hit in the rear, but rear ending collisions tend to be lower speed than most other collisions right? And as for rebound in all other collisions, I've heard arguments that it is, in fact, _supposed to happen_ as a safety feature of sorts, where the rebounding of the seat absorbs crash forces so the child's body absorbs less force. Of course this could be wrong, but it's an argument I've heard several times.

"supposed to" as in that's what they do. Not as in that's the safest solution. Less movement is better. Period.

-Angela


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## skaterbabs (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
The rf tether DOES make a BIG difference in stability. After seeing that I won't put dd in a seat that doesn't tether RF. Especially if she's near the top of the weight range.


Angela, not to be snarky or anything, but are you a technician?

FWIW, there is some debate over the use of RF tethers. The concern is that is can/might increase the load on the child's spinal column. There is also very little evidence to prove one way or the other that having them makes any difference at all in the most common types of crashes. Really, the main benefit is seen in side-impact crashes, not rear or frontal, and of course frontal is the most common type.

*All other factors being equal, an untethered rear facing seat is safer than a forward facing seat.*

So those extra couple of pounds could really make a difference. It was an extra three months of RF for my own daughter, who had a huge growth spurt during those three months. For a child growing more slowly it could be 6 months or even a year.


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## mcng (Oct 17, 2006)

Less movement is not always better


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## soygurl (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skaterbabs* 
FWIW, there is some debate over the use of RF tethers. The concern is that is can/might increase the load on the child's spinal column. There is also very little evidence to prove one way or the other that having them makes any difference at all in the most common types of crashes. Really, the main benefit is seen in side-impact crashes, not rear or frontal, and of course frontal is the most common type.

So, clearly my argument that I posted earlier (quoted below) is NOT true... could you explain why? Obviously my logic is off, but I really curious what I'm missing. Thanks!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *soygurl* 
Here's my issue with the RF tether vs. 2 extra lbs. argument. It's my understanding in a side impact collision the back of the seat will rotate towards the point of impact further protecting the child by having the back of the seat absorb more of the impact. Now I know that belts and tethers stretch a great deal in a collision, but I can't help wondering if a RF tether might impede such a beneficial rotation in a side impact. And aren't side impact collisions one of the more common and more deadly collisions statistically?


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## skaterbabs (Jul 31, 2005)

You know, I'll have to find the link to that study again...if I forget (we're having crazy bad things happening lately with the ILs) PM me. Papooses might have it on her site as well....


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

One thing I've noticed is- the countries with better carseat standards have seats that tether RF.

That says something to me.

I'd be very interested to see crash tests with and without RF tethers.

-Angela


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## Papooses (Dec 20, 2006)

RF seats coccoon just because that's the way physics works -- CPST curriculum does in fact now encourage parents to tether RF *when possible* (as per the manual) because it enhances Ride Down, reducing crash forces upon the child's body.... However, keeping kids RF longer (as per the manual) _even without_ being able to tether is the most important thing









I used a Britax tethered RF until my daughter reached 33# then I used a $40 Scenera for the extra 2 pounds: if Recaro does not approve RF tetherability by the time I have another child then that's what I'll do again even though the Scenera doesn't have EPS/EPP foam (like in bike helmets) because RF is just sooooo much safer


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## angie3096 (Apr 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamayes* 
It seems that there are no 35lb RF seats that also have RF tether. Does anyone know differently?

Anyone?

Word from the ABC Expo is that Britax said that next year, ALL their convertibles will RF to 35 pounds. So it's just a matter of time...


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