# Could you be friends with someone who CIO?



## ChristyMarie (May 31, 2006)

Let's say you are very anti-CIO and your best friend who is pregnant with her first just announced to you she is pro-CIO and wants to buy "Healthy Sleep Habits, Healthy Child" and won't even consider reading your copy of the "no cry sleep solution" You got her to sort of agree to read any links you sent her (and believe me, I just sent her a TON) but you aren't sure she will really read them. She thinks you are weird for co-sleeping and holding your DS when he naps.

How do you stay friends?







:


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## nichole (Feb 9, 2004)

yes i would try. jmo.

i would set an example w/ your awesome parenting and not go to her house at nap times. just let her know it bothers you too much to listen to it. ppl have crazy ideas during pregnancy and change when the baby arrives anyway. you should give a sling too.


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## ZenMamaJen (Aug 19, 2005)

Yes; I am, in fact.

It made me so sad to think about it; I think she had a little PPD and was convinced her ds wasn't getting any sleep and her ped told her to do CIO. That her ds "would still smile when he saw her in the morning."







Ugh. She was really upset about it, but did it anyway. I wish I were more forceful in sharing my pro co-sleeping, non-CIO feelings, among other things (like anti-circ!! this one kills me, too), I don't know why I don't exactly. Anyway, that's another post.

I think it's great that you shared your view and resources with her. You never know what will happen. I would have been totally doing all that crap (CIO, circ, whatever) if I hadn't found MDC and Mothering mag before dd was conceived.


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## NotTheOnlyOne (Oct 23, 2006)

of course I would be friends with them!! one of my very best friends is due on SUnday and if she chooses to go that route, it wont affect our friendship. I am not going to treat MY ds that way and if I babysit for her I will nto treat HER ds that way, but I am not letting go of a dear friend due to some bad choices she makes. Hopefully, since I had a baby first, I can lead her by example in that area. I have a better chance of "changing" her if I am still friends with her. I feel all cultish now so I am going to stop.


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## 425lisamarie (Mar 4, 2005)

Nope, and no way. To me it's a basic human value of life issue. I will say no more or defend that, either.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Nope, I lost a friendship with someone who did CIO. We were too judgmental of each other's parenting styles.


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## moppity (Aug 15, 2005)

Probably, all the mothers in our playgroup did and I still see them all the time. My best friend has three children and has NEVER CIO...it would be weird to me if she did







But I don't suppose I would lose the friendship over it, I would try and help them if they were doing it as a 'last resort' though.


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## TabbyK (Jan 14, 2007)

Yes. Something that struck me is that you said she's currently pregnant. How many ideas did you have, knowing how you would do things, prior to childbirth that ended up flying out the window? "I just don't agree with co-sleeping" said the mom here who shares her bed half the night with her 4 yr old! LOL I could go on! I also know many people who theoretically have no issue with CIO but when it comes down to it, they surprise themselves because they just can't do it (guilty again). I understand that you're very opposed to CIO, but I wouldn't write her off - you never know what magic the act of mothering might work!

K.


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## momuveight2B (Mar 17, 2006)

I would try but generally this is not the only difference over time so it becomes difficult and then we grow apart. I really do try to be tactful too and to keep my mouth shut.


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## huskermommy (Jun 14, 2006)

i can be a female dog.







that being said, i cant remain friends... its tough for me. i got into a heated blow up w/my cousin about circing and then dh and i talked and decided just not to talk to ppl about things like that anymore because you cant get thru the wall. its just too stressful to think about what the babies go thru.


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## MommytoTwo (Jun 20, 2004)

I have Healthy Sleep Habits Happy Child and I never let my dd cio. Its actually a good reference book.

I do have a friend who is VERY pro - CIO and was doing it one night while we were all at her house (book club or something, I cant recall). It was so upsetting. She didnt even bat an eyelash but we were all trying to talk her out of it. Finally one girl got up and let her kid out of bed. lol Poor thing.


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## Heffernhyphen (May 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Nope, I lost a friendship with someone who did CIO. We were too judgmental of each other's parenting styles.

That's a key point here, I think. You are judging her and her choices. I agree with you that CIO is awful . . . in fact I just heard Dr. Sears on Dr. Phil's show today say that it is actually physically dangerous to the child because it raises blood pressure and can hinder oxygen-rich blood supply to precious growing brains.

Tell her your reasons, share with her why you think CIO is wrong, but if she chooses her own way, that's her choice. I certainly have enough people thinking I'm harming my DS by co-sleeping and nursing him at the ripe old age of three. Wouldn't it be terrible if they decided to dump me because of it?


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## fico18 (Dec 20, 2006)

I wouldn't let it ruin a friendship, but I would keep sending her stuff like you are and hope when her babe gets here that she will change her mind. I was kind of on the fence when I was preg. but EVERYTHING changed when my dd arrived; I could never let her CIO.


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## WhaleinGaloshes (Oct 9, 2006)

I can be friends with people who have different ideas about parenting. How distressing it would be to me would probably depend on how hard-core CIO they were. I certainly have friends who let their kids cry more than I do.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ChristyMarie* 
She thinks you are weird for co-sleeping and holding your DS when he naps.


This would be a bigger hurdle, potentially. If a friend truly thought I was weird and was really unaccepting about it, the friendship would definitely suffer.


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## KsMum (Nov 1, 2006)

I can't do CIO on my dd, just could not stand it, but I have some great friends who are wonderful mothers that have tried it, some with great success, some that didn't have success and stopped.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

easy goer, you said it.

Also, people's opinions can and do change. I've changed since becoming a mama, I know that. So don't take it as her final word.


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## vanessab23 (Nov 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TabbyK* 
Yes. Something that struck me is that you said she's currently pregnant. How many ideas did you have, knowing how you would do things, prior to childbirth that ended up flying out the window? "I just don't agree with co-sleeping" said the mom here who shares her bed half the night with her 4 yr old! LOL I could go on! I also know many people who theoretically have no issue with CIO but when it comes down to it, they surprise themselves because they just can't do it (guilty again). I understand that you're very opposed to CIO, but I wouldn't write her off - you never know what magic the act of mothering might work!

K.









:
I say, yes-- although for me it is (currently) hard now that my friends are starting to have babies.
I have 2 friend that may go down that road (and others I don't agree with) so I got them both subscriptions to mothering







Hopefully they will learn something along the way. I just can't keep getting all worked up over our differing ways of parenting!







:

Good luck!


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

Before I had dd, I was planning to CIO.







: I just was very misinformed that that was the only way you could get a baby to sleep. And I was totally against co-sleeping. I thought it would ruin our marriage. Little did I know.







I am so thankful for the girl in our birth class who spoke out against Babywise to me. Even though at the time, I was angry at her for being so harsh with me, especially in front of everyone. But it got me thinking. And reading. And researching. She brought in a Moby wrap, the first wrap I ever saw. She wrapped her nephew in it for us to see. I thought it was totally 'hippie' and wierd. Then I had dd and she wouldn't let me put her down. Luckily the website of where she bought the wrap stuck in my head, and I ordered one. So after my long post, my answer is yes, I would remain friends. My friends and I dont agree on everything. I disagree with lots of things, and CIO is one of them. However I have remained friends with two people who CIO, and now both are co-sleeping.







With their almost 4 year olds. It's never too late! I also remain friends with people who believe spanking is ok. Not with those who abuse or beat their children. I do not believe my friends think that is what they are doing when they spank. Of course I 100% disagree with spanking, and they know that. But by remaining friends, we have come up with different ways of disciplining the kids. They would have continued to spank had they not had someone who taught them differently. HTH


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## guestmama9915 (Jul 29, 2004)

Yes.. or I wouldn't have any friends. But really, I wouldn't want to talk about it or be around it, but would try to remain friends.


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## janerose (May 9, 2004)

My best friend CIO. She is a "in your crib in your own room" from the day her kids get home from the hospital kinda momma. Neither of her boys has ever slept in their bed. And I don't like coincidentally, part of it was she was never able to nurse laying down. If she had been able to I'm almost positive she would have ended up co-sleeping. But, she doesn't. She also doesn't do hours & hours of CIO though. I guess it's the Ferber method? Where you let them cry 10 min then go in to reassure them, let them cry 15 min then go in and reassure them, etc. She also circed her boys & spanks, which I totally disagree with. She knows my feelings on both subjects, and we've just agreed to disagree. On the plus side she natural births, selective/delayed vaxes, tries to do the whole NFL/healthy food thing, and breastfeeds.

We have been friends for over 20 years though, so there is a lot of history & inventment in the relationship. Honestly, if I was just getting to know someone & found out they CIO, circ, & spank I wouldn't immediatly cross them off the list, but I'd definitly give the friendship a second thought or two. Spanking is actually becoming a bigger issue for me than CIO to be honest.

Holly


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## mothragirl (Sep 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *easy_goer* 
I can be friends with people who have different ideas about parenting. How distressing it would be to me would probably depend on how hard-core CIO they were. I certainly have friends who let their kids cry more than I do.

.

same here.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KsMum* 
I can't do CIO on my dd, just could not stand it, but I have some great friends who are wonderful mothers that have tried it, some with great success, some that didn't have success and stopped.

what is "success"?

i, fortunately, have not had this problem. most of my friends are intuitive and emotional people who would not be able to let their baby's need go unmet.


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## linguistmama (Sep 25, 2006)

My best friend did CIO and we were still close until she moved away, but it definately affected us. I really admired alot of the rest of the way she parented, wore baby in backpack, no-circ., except for CIO pretty respectful of her children. I didn't see how CIO fit in with that. After awhile we just didn't talk about it after it was clear that I wasn't going to let dd CIO even though my friend thought I should. It worked out ok because once she knew my opinion she backed off and I knew her opinion and backed off.


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## Emilie (Dec 23, 2003)

Wow. CIO is very dangerous and terrible for a babies physical and emotional health. Some would call it child abuse. I would.
Purposefully not caring for your infant? That is what it is.

I am friends with people who have done this and do this. I do not stay at someones house while it is happening and I do not condone it. I am hopeful that they pick up other things from me- but I am not perfect and they have strengths in parenting that I don't have to.... but I would never think CIO was an ok thing for any parent or child to do.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Could I be...

Friendly? Yes.

Friends? That would depend on whether this was CIO-lite or Ezzo baby training.

Best friends? No, not during the time they were believers in CIO. Whether or not I intended it, my trust in that person's advice would be affected. On some level I just wouldn't understand them, or feel understood by them. My closest friends are kindred spirits, with basic values I understand.


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## Barb36 (Mar 19, 2006)

I understand completely where you are all coming from in feeling very strongly about not doing CIO. I have to say that I think it is so important to respect others' choices, though. We can all have our opinions, but we bring so much of our own history to our role as parents. We also all have varying degrees of what we can handle in terms of sleep deprivation. The people I know who did CIO did so because they simply couldn't survive the sleep deprivation...and most did modified versions of it.

I would, of course, remain friends with folks who choose different parenting avenues than I do. Out right abuse, probably not. But CIO doesn't fall under that definition (I'm a social worker and there are very clear guidelines as to what qualifies as abuse).

I haven't been able to do CIO with my babies...however tempting! Sleep deprviation really kills me and I'm constantly trying different gentle methods. Because I struggle so much with sleep deprivation, I can really understand how desperate some feel to do anything to get more sleep.


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## 425lisamarie (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Barb36* 
I'm a social worker and there are very clear guidelines as to what qualifies as abuse.


so since you have the official book of what is right what is wrong makes it ok then since it's not "abuse."


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## sebarnes (Feb 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
Could I be...

Friendly? Yes.

Friends? That would depend on whether this was CIO-lite or Ezzo baby training.

Best friends? No, not during the time they were believers in CIO. Whether or not I intended it, my trust in that person's advice would be affected. On some level I just wouldn't understand them, or feel understood by them. My closest friends are kindred spirits, with basic values I understand.

Exactly my feelings.


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## ecoteat (Mar 3, 2006)

Of course! Just like I can be friends with Republicans and Catholics and people who live in cities and vegans and SUV-drivers. I am none of those things. I have made different choices about how to live my life and raise my daughter and I can't expect everyone, even the people I choose to be friends with, to make the same set of choices. My _closest_ friends are country-living, earth-hugging, Solstice-celebrating, Democrats, but they aren't my _only_ friends!


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## Katielady (Nov 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
Could I be...

Friendly? Yes.

Friends? That would depend on whether this was CIO-lite or Ezzo baby training.

Best friends? No, not during the time they were believers in CIO. Whether or not I intended it, my trust in that person's advice would be affected. On some level I just wouldn't understand them, or feel understood by them. My closest friends are kindred spirits, with basic values I understand.

Well said- I agree. It's not a question of judging someone for their choices, as though you're dumping them for choosing a nursery decorating style you don't like. It's more that once you feel your values are so fundamentally different, it's hard to feel close with that person any more. That's happening to me right now with an old friend who is due in February and plans to circ and CIO. I'm still hoping she'll change her mind on both, but even hearing her talk about it is upsetting to me. I'm not going to, like, break up with her, but I don't think the friendship will be as strong as it used to be if our basic parenting values are completely different. To me, parenting choices like CIO, circ, and even breastfeeding (barring cases where it was truly impossible for the mama) are tied up with ones fundamental values as a human being. There's only so close I can be with someone who doesn't share my basic sense of what's right and wrong in life.


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

I would lose so much respect for them that I wouldn't be able to be a caring, giving friend to them anymore. None of my friends did/do CIO, and if any who have kids in the future do, I will do everything in my power to stop them as I believe it to be serious child neglect, especially in newborns. It's not about being judgmental and live and let live, it's about a baby crying alone in a dark room, frightened because it's mother refuses to respond. I can't overlook that.


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## BookGoddess (Nov 6, 2005)

I'm friendly with the person that I know for a fact has done CIO but I'm not as close as I once was. Her CIO bothers me and I can't get around it but I haven't completely cut her out of my life either.


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## Starflower (Sep 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BookGoddess* 
I'm friendly with the person that I know for a fact has done CIO but I'm not as close as I once was. Her CIO bothers me and I can't get around it but I haven't completely cut her out of my life either.

I'm a little bit like this with my neighbor up the street. She knows I would never CIO and that I don't approve of it. I thought at first we were becoming good friends, but looks like more just neighborly now. Part of it is her CIO.

I certainly would never leave DD with her now, though we did trade babysitting a couple times in the past (before she started CIO). I rarely see her anymore even though she lives just up the street. When ran into her after the holidays, she was talking about getting the book she wanted for xmas - "The SuperNanny" - so now I'm feeling even less inclined to hang out with her.

So I guess, yes, it would effect my relationship. But in the situation of someone who is pg. I think you have a good chance of "rubbing off" on her at least some in a positive way. I used to think co-sleeping was weird but the people at our hospital actually suggested it.

I think we can lead best by example. But sometimes other people just don't pay attention. I'd say see how it goes and if she remains rigid in her thinking after the baby is born - then maybe drop the relationship and explain why. Might give her something to think about.


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## clavicula (Apr 10, 2005)

yes.
what the h*ck can i do? i am the only AP mom around here!







:
i try not to be judgemental at all.


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## ohiomommy1122 (Jul 7, 2006)

DD used to be very goods about bedtime I would nurse to sleep then leave the room since she turned 7monthsish she doesnt want to be nursed to sleep when I lay her down next to her to put her to sleep she thinks it playtime crawls all over the bed talking and having a party meanwhile I will just lay there and pretend I('m sleeping to try to get her to go to sleep, also during this time all the lights are off and her white noise music is on so after 20 min or more of trying I will put her in her crib then she will cry, I will usually let it last 5-10 min then go back in and try to rock or nurse back to sleep, if this doesnt work after 20 min or so I put her back into her crib and do the routine over, usualy after 1-2 times of this she will nurse to slep because she now has wore herself out crying

I do not like letting her cry I dont know what to do, she IS tired AND SHOWS ME ALL THE SIGNS SHE IS,. SO ITS NOT THAT SHES NOT TIRED AND DOESNT WANT TO GO TO BED. ( SORRY BOUT THE CAPS) dang caps lock key!!! It seems the only way she will finally nurse to sleep ids after she has realized she is going to end up back in her crib, how do I get my baby back to nursing to sleep w/o crying??


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## SillyMommy (May 13, 2003)

I say yes because I've done it. I was good friends with a mom who's dd was 3 months older than my DS. We were neighbors. They moved away when he was about 1 or so - and I don't think we'd still be friends if they haven't.

I say this because a lot of times if they CIO then they also do a lot of things very differently (i.e. spank, etc) and I won't have my son around others who treat their kids that way.


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## saraann (Dec 1, 2006)

yes, in fact, most of my mom friends have done cio. I don't agree with it but I dislike being judged about my parenting choices so I try really hard not to judge others for how they choose to parent. I know these moms love their kids and are just trying to do what they feel is best. cio is so accepted in the mainstream that I know they really don't think it could do any harm.

I think it's great that you are giving your friend resources on cio, etc. Since she hasn't had her baby yet, she has no idea how much her baby's cries will effect her. Reading the info that you have given her may make her think twice and realize that there's a better way.


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## Jenlaana (Oct 28, 2005)

I think the most important part of friendships is being able to respect our differences. I think CIO is absolutely the most saddest and long term detrimental thing a parent can do, but I also believe that everyone needs to be given the room to learn and change. I honestly thought there was NO other way to put a baby to sleep than CIO and sleeping/feeding on a strict routine prior to finding mothering.com (my husband actually found it doing research on raising babies while I was still too busy fighting with obstetricians to focus on AFTER the birth yet).

There are subjects that I cant discuss with a lot of people (my religion/sexuality/child raising practices/etc) and as long as they drop it I am fine with it. If your friend makes it an issue between you, I would drop the friendship. If she respects your differences then I dont think it would have to be an issue (but I wouldnt be there when the baby is CIO either just because i would be too upset by it)


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## ChristyMarie (May 31, 2006)

Thank you for all of your insightful words. Let me address a few things:

-This started because she just visited a friend of hers and told me they suggested a fabulous sleep book that she HAD to get. I started in on how horrible it was, thinking she didn't know it was pro-CIO. She knew and approved.

-Knowing alternatives: she knows alternatives and says that "if a baby is fed and dry there's no reason they shouldn't lay down and go to sleep. A couple of pats on his back and that's it. It worked when I was babysitting and they were fine."







: And while she's gung-ho to read the pro-CIO book she refuses to read any alternative books - I'm simply HOPING that she'll read the links I sent her.

-Respecting choices: she doesn't really respect mine lately. At first she was all good but now I'm getting the comments like:
---do you EVER put him down?
---he'll still be sleeping in your bed forever (I asked her how many 18 yr olds she knew who still slept with their parents - she said she didn't know any 18 yr olds who had co-slept. *sigH*)
---I was complaining that my legs hurt from bouncing DS to sleep (then during a nap he needs to keep bouncing ....) for like an hour after doing a tough lower body weight workout. She couldn't understand why I would bounce him like that. Just.Couldn't.Get.It.
---during the same conversation she mentioned how "disgusting" it was that some people are still breastfeeding at 5 yrs old.

So while the CIO is only one issue - I'm afraid it is going to open a door to a ton of larger issues/beliefs. I KNOW I can never be around her if she lets her baby cry. I will need to leave. I also told her she doesn't ever get to babysit. That didn't go over well either. Why would I leave my child with someone who has stated they will put him down and let him cry alone?

I'm really hoping she changes after she has the baby. I know I was NEVER going to co-sleep. Yeah, well the crib makes a fantastic laundry holder.


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## mamamilkers (Nov 11, 2005)

Not close friends. I have had aquaintances who do it, though. We don't really talk about sleep.


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## BonanzaJellybean (Jun 1, 2006)

This is such a hard one for me. I am a new mom and trying to make some mom friends, but I just bristle when they talk about letting baby "fuss it out" or that they are "ferberizing." Honestly, I have not been pursuing those relationships, but it has left me with few mama friends, which I think is important. As a new mom, it is just so hard to NOT talk about sleep with other moms, so it is hard to build relationships with people who do things that you fundamentally don't agree with. I know that being an AP parent in itself is the source of a lot of criticism, and I don't want to be critical back of other parenting styles (I don't want to be critical in general)... but it is just so HARD not to be about CIO. I would love suggestions from people who have been successful.


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## JenniferH (Feb 24, 2005)

If they were truly using CIO (letting a child cry without *ever* picking it up) I think I'd have a hard time being around them. At the other end of the spectrum is the person who picks up a child every time they so much as make a peep. I can't be around either type of person.

I honestly don't know many people who use real CIO (which IMO is willfull neglect) or are completely anti-cosleeping. Most of my friends/family have/had their kids in the bed with them at some point, even if it wasn't full time co-sleeping. Heck, my parents wound up with all four of us in the bed with them one night during tornado season when I was about 12!









Circing is another story, though. I don't know very many people who haven't circed their boys. I'm so glad my husband is intact. I'd have to get divorced if my partner wanted to circ one of our children. As for other people, I can offer the information, but it's really not my place to tell them they are a bad person for making that decision.


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## mamato271828 (Aug 23, 2006)

Interesting question and answers. Like someone said previously, I could be friendly and civil but I couldn't really be friends. To me, it is so much more than one single issue. The people I known who have done CIO also don't breastfeed or use gentle discipline. When it comes down to it, we just don't have anything in common. Since I recently moved, I have been more cautious in finding new friends who share more of my values.


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## TheGlimmering (Dec 9, 2006)

Deleted


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

I have a friend who does this, amongst other things like smoking around her baby, and I can't stand her. I'm nice to her and try to get her to stop, but she doesn't really listen. It makes me sad, and I feel so much for her child but can do nothing about it. I don't like talking to her or being around her because I feel we have nothing in common. I feel like I don't know her anymore...so yeah I am still her friend but it is not the same... To me CIO is lazy, abusive, and selfish...not to mention its stupid to think a 7 month old understand that 9 pm is bedtime when they have no concept of time and that they'll learnif you just abandon them when the moon comes out.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

Most of my friends and family with children have done some CIO (like staying in the room and patting, singing till the baby sleeps, always picking him/her up if he/she gets frantic, or having dad do the nighttime stuff even tho baby would rather have mom) at some point...I'm ok with that. Their children all seem happy and healthy. They all seem attached to mom and/or dad and no worse for it.

For me, it's easy to say I'd never CIO and I'll just keep endlessly rocking to sleep and getting up all night - I have tons of support, a husband who sets his own hours and works from home, family near by who can watch the baby (who is now one) so I can get a nap. I don't have other children who need me or a job I have to go to in the morning. I'm healthy with no PPD or physical issues. I can see how someone who is faced with ANOTHER sleepless night followed by another long day without any rest or support in site would decide to CIO in some modified way.


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## sphinxie (Feb 28, 2006)

For me in the example given, the first problem would be her disinterest in listening and discussing. That to me is not a sign of a friendship in most cases.

In general, I could be friends with someone who CIO very moderately. Up to a point, I consider it none of my business, and maybe sometimes quite understandable. But there is a point beyond which I would consider it dangerously neglectful, and a person who went beyond that point I would not want as a friend.


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

I would give her the benefit of the doubt and see what happens when she actually holds her baby. Right now her worst fear is probably that her child might still be waking at night when they're a year, or that she's never going to have five minutes to herself ever again.

It's not as if she's planning to circumcise. It'll be 6+ months before that sort of thing becomes possible, and by then she might just be so in love with her child that she won't do it.

But, yes, if she did do CIO I would not be able to be close with her. Cordial, but not close.

Whatever her intentions now, you need to stay friends to provide the model and counterpoint to the people who'll be telling her that a child who doesn't eat fpour hourly at four month is destined for juvenile delinquency. You owe it to her baby and possibly to the mother to do what you can.

I don't think her unwillingness to listen is necessarily a bad thing. being bombarded with unsolicited advice sucks. I think it's more powerful and appropriate to be nearby when she calls you one morning and say "baby wanted to nurse for four hours last night, my milk must be bad" or "MIL says baby should be sleeping through so I'm going to CIO". Maybe read the books she's reading, so you can put a caring slant on them, point out for example, that Weissbluth says no CIO at all before 4 months, and tells you to do whatever you want with regards to sleep before then. And then conveniently forget that he says you can start at 4 months







IMO you can pick something non-cruel from most of those books for most situations. They're not 100% CIO, there's other stuff in there that you could buy the child time with. Often people simply need to hear that xyz is normal and a stage and it will pass. Read Ferber, too. He's a name that will probably sway her, and you can pick and choose some very decent sleep things out of his book.

How convincing would it be for you to say "Oh, actually, I was reading Ferber and he warns that you need to make sure that the child isn't suffering separation anxiety before doing CIO, and that 8/9 months is a prime time for separation anxiety, so you should wait a bit longer". And then you've saved that child another month in which they might start sleeping better on their own, and never get CIO'd.

Research things are are between co-sleeping and CIO, and have suggestions ready for her. Like she might prefer to have a mattress on the floor in her DC's room and nurse him to sleep on it and then have her own bed, for example. Or to sit by his crib in her room with her hand on him, rocking and singing him to sleep.

I have a friends who thinks extended nursing is weird, but she hasn't had her baby yet. If she weans her child on his first birthday than yes, I'll rethink my opinion of her, but until then she has to be given the chance to learn and grow and come into her own as a mother. And as a close friend I can model how wonderful it is to parent in a loving, caring, easygoing way.

But I have an ex-friend who did extinction CIO at five months. That's why she's an ex-friend.


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## RockStarMom (Sep 11, 2005)

No, I could never be friends with someone who let their child cry it out. That's the one thing that I am passionate about with parenting. I'm slowly easing myself out of the playgroup we belong to in which all the other moms use CIO. As friendly as they are, I can no longer listen to them talk about it or get past the fact that they do it.


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## nina_yyc (Nov 5, 2006)

Yes. I have a friend who let her DD (21 mos.) CIO the other day when she wouldn't nap. We did discuss it, and she said she felt bad about it but that was the only way she could get her DD to nap sometimes. She doesn't CIO all the time (usually relies on routine, which works really well, but she was out and missed the 'nap window' so she CIO) and I know she responds in the night when her kids need her. I really didn't know what to tell her since I'm so new at this and otherwise she is a great mama.


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## bornbythesea (Oct 24, 2006)

It's hard to hear about CIO, especially from well meaning mothers and friends. I have been in a similar position. I'm so passionate about not CIO, and it just blows me away to hear that people still do it. I've wondered, wow, if we are so far apart on this issue, can we relate to each other at all? Maybe she will change her mind, and maybe she will be more influenced by you than you think. Just remember how many books are out there that say it's ok, and if you feel it's appropriate, slip her some Sears or Pantley.


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## dillonandmarasmom (May 30, 2005)

my best friend from childhood used Babywise







: . I am really drifting away from her. SHe's very into sleep scheduling. It's just uncomfortable. I feel like she doesn't want to talk about baby stuff with me. I steered her toward MDC and almost got her a Mothering sub. when she was preggers (back in 2004), but for some reason I hesitated. I wish I hadn't...


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

I have friends who CIO because they thought it was in the best interest of their babies. I disagree but I can still be friends with them because they honestly thought they were doing the right thing. But another acquaintance who did CIO because she seemed to think her baby was too much trouble, I'm not friends with her. There are other reasons for that though.


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## mama k nj (Dec 18, 2006)

If I wasnt' I wouldnt have any friends.








JK.. sort of. I am a new mama so I just try and lead by example so to speak. Maybe the PP is right and she'll feel differently once she hears that baby crying.


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## Daisie125 (Oct 26, 2005)

Nope, I'm not friends with people who abuse their children.


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## talk de jour (Apr 21, 2005)

I don't judge people based on parenting style. I can wholeheartedly disagree and be disappointed, but it doesn't mean they're bad or evil, IMO.


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## BelovedK (Jun 7, 2005)

Several posts have been removed from this thread. We do not host debates on the topic of CIO on this forum (see forum guidelines)

Let's keep this discussion civil


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## Swirly (May 20, 2006)

Since I consider it abuse, it is hard for me. However, I do currently have people in my life who do this, but I either avoid them or try to dissuade them (depends on the person).


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## Kramer (Nov 30, 2006)

Agree to withstand the judgement of every little thing other moms do.
Women do the best they can with what they have so accept real friends' differences as just that, different from what you may do.

Now, if you and old friends are growing apart in all arenas and have nothing in common anymore that is a different story. Or, if you are meeting new friends and see there is not a whole lot in common, move on. But keep your judgements to yourself and stay off the high horse of everyone should do what I do and nothing else. You never know what you can learn from others until you open yourself to their reasons and background.


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## treemom2 (Oct 1, 2003)

No, I don't think I could be friends with someone who CIO. I think I might try, but eventually it would really begin to bug me and I would try to educate them only to get upset at their stupidity and give up both trying to educate and being their friend. I once had a friend who was a spanker. . .eventually it got to me as well and we are no longer friends!


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## *mama moose* (Oct 12, 2006)

I find it hard to get past this w/ friends as well. It still shocks me when I find out people do it, and I always feel soooo awful for their babies. Same with spanking. A woman in a moms group I go to spanked her DD at our group xmas party and I nearly threw up. I can be civil, but not friends.


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## formerluddite (Nov 16, 2006)

i do find myself distanced from new aquaintances on this issue. i recall meeting a mom at a park where we were having a great conversation, hitting it off, then she said something about a time when she heard her ds crying in his crib, "and it wasn't his usual cry," so she decided to go see what was wrong, and he had a leg stuck out between the bars. i didn't really hear anything she said after that, i sort of shut down, thinking: "different than the 'usual cry' that you ignore?"

and my neighbor, who seemed so attached with her newborn, coslept then, used the sling we gave, went to LLL meetings with me... well, when her son was 5 mos she was telling me how bad a vacation was, because the 2 bedrooms were close together, and how even with earplugs she could still hear ds crying, for an hour... i remember her then getting a funny look on her face, and i realized i must have been looking shocked, and the conversation trailed off. after that i realized i wasn't that interested in getting to be closer friends. she once asked to borrow a tent, because they were going camping, and her 3man tent wasn't big enough for them, so she wanted to put her 1 1/2 year old alone in his own tent. it broke my heart to imagine that kid alone in the woods. thankfully, we had (truthfully) misplaced our tent a year before, and couldn't loan it.

i think one of the reasons my best friend (since 1972!) and i are still close through child raising is that we agree that you give kids what they need: you nurse them and don't leave them to cry. on other things we frequently disagree, and have to shelve topics of converation and agree to respectfully disagree (like tv, schedules, pink (i'm "denying" my dd's pink because i don't buy pink baby clothes!!!), disney stuff, diet, healthcare, noisy toys, bare feet...). there's value in someone who has been with you through all your past. they keep you grounded, keep you real, remind you who you've been. you don't have to explain everything. but if you grow too far apart, and you don't feel they value you anymore, the friendship will wither. too much judgement will end a friendship.


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## ChristyMarie (May 31, 2006)

***Little update***

In response to my links to read, she told me she would not be reading any of them because she didn't care to be told she would be messing up her child for life by not doing things a certain way. Um....ok.....

*She also told me that by following the "new way" of parenting practices I'm using I will be "raising a generation of undicipplined children that expect their parents to be their butlers and have things their way at all times and are completly unable to cope when their "needs" aren't met. "*

She hasn't even read enough to know that CIO is the "new way" if you look at history. She's usually into the history of stuff so I sent her a link explaining that but she won't even read it.

I love her but she's very opinionated. We cannot discuss politics of any kind. We cannot discuss finances. We cannot discuss weight/food/exercise. *sigh*

I think for now I'm just not responding in hopes of letting us both calm down. Unfortunately she's supposed to be meeting me and watching DS while I have a doctor appt on Thursday. If she doesn't show I guess I'll just have a nurse hold him.


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## mesecina (Apr 22, 2004)

Yes, but I definitely found myself putting a little more distance between us while their kids were little. There was one neighbor who I was beginning to be friendly with until she started telling another mom to let her baby cry at 3 months (!). I have two good friends who I am now close to again, and I feel our parenting is fairly similar now.


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## MysteryMama (Aug 11, 2006)

yes. i do not require that my friends live their life according to my values. i choose my friends based on their personality and how well we click, and i can still "click" with someone who parents differently. i do think it's a plus when someone does have the same parenting style, but you just can't base a friendship on that. or at least i can't. i think CIO is wrong. i don't do it. but i know good people who think (and do) otherwise. just cause they don't do things my way doesn't mean they are bad people. in fact, if they strongly believed in CIO but the only reason they didn't do was cause they wanted me to be their friend, it would creep me out. i guess it comes down to respecting someone as an individual and respecting peoples right to parent how they think is best. in any case, i would be absolutely crushed if one of my mainstream friends ditched our friendship cause i cosleep or something like that.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I was TOTALLY pro cry it out.

Until she was born.

I was totally pro spanking.

Until she was born.

I had all sorts of plans for my perfectly behaved child, because I was NOT going to go through what my friends went through with the sleepless nights, and the tantrums, and other behavior issues. Because after all, I was a professional in my field of early childhood. This would be a breeze.

Of course, all of that went out the window. I never left her to cry. I couldn't bear to. I never ever dreamed of spanking her again.

My sister in law was a Cry it out parent. She was a spanker. She spanked, and punished, and spanked some more. I was so sad. Her kids are very well behaved, and responsible. But, so is mine. She is happy, healthy, and responsible.


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## Ex Libris (Jan 31, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *con leche* 
I would have been totally doing all that crap (CIO, circ, whatever) if I hadn't found MDC and Mothering mag before dd was conceived.

Me, too. I just happened upon the magazine in a store while I was pregnant. It totally changed my ideas of how I would parent. Then, after ds was born, I was SO immediately in love with him that I couldn't bear thinking of doing anything other than AP. I think that what we would do in theory before giving birth to our babies could be very different from what we'd like to do once they're in our arms. So maybe if you plant the AP idea in your friend's mind right now (or at least the thought that there are other ways of parenting), she'll be more likely to AP after giving birth.


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## huskermommy (Jun 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bri276* 
I would lose so much respect for them that I wouldn't be able to be a caring, giving friend to them anymore. None of my friends did/do CIO, and if any who have kids in the future do, I will do everything in my power to stop them as I believe it to be serious child neglect, especially in newborns. It's not about being judgmental and live and let live, it's about a baby crying alone in a dark room, frightened because it's mother refuses to respond. I can't overlook that.

You're exactly right....

I also agree with what 425lisamarie said about Barb36's comment.


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## huskermommy (Jun 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ChristyMarie* 
***Little update***

In response to my links to read, she told me she would not be reading any of them because she didn't care to be told she would be messing up her child for life by not doing things a certain way. Um....ok.....

*She also told me that by following the "new way" of parenting practices I'm using I will be "raising a generation of undicipplined children that expect their parents to be their butlers and have things their way at all times and are completly unable to cope when their "needs" aren't met. "*

She hasn't even read enough to know that CIO is the "new way" if you look at history. She's usually into the history of stuff so I sent her a link explaining that but she won't even read it.

I love her but she's very opinionated. We cannot discuss politics of any kind. We cannot discuss finances. We cannot discuss weight/food/exercise. *sigh*

I think for now I'm just not responding in hopes of letting us both calm down. Unfortunately she's supposed to be meeting me and watching DS while I have a doctor appt on Thursday. If she doesn't show I guess I'll just have a nurse hold him.

I am so sorry you are going thru this







s

After having an agruement w/my cousin on the circ issue and me being brought to tears (ok, fine, i was balling) I realized that I could yes, be friendly with her, but never "best friends" agian, like a pp said. She also CIO and all that jazz, and accordingly, that's what she talks about. Parenting is what we have in common and what we talk about... She can't stand hearing my "off the wall" parenting style and I HATE listening to her put her children in pain. I do talk w/her occassionaly but not often and only if its not about parenting.

That being said, I do have one friend, (not IRL) that I talk to quite often. She did decide to circ, she let her dd CIO and I think she'll prolly do it again w/her ds. Her and I have a different relationship where we can agree to disagree if you know what I mean. However, most ppl aren't that "understanding".

No matter what, if you're not mainstream and most of the ppl around you are, its going to be tough. It's hard having all this knowledge and trying to help ppl learn more about NFL only to be looked at as pushy or not knowing what you're talking about.

I hope you come to some good conclusion on this! If I were closer I'd hold your sweet babe for ya!! But who knows! She may show up and she might even feel a little bad for being so hard on ya.


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## Heffernhyphen (May 3, 2005)

I think I might wean myself of her friendship not because her opinions don't agree with yours (and mine), but because she sounds like a closed-minded person who is not at all interested in learning or having her ideas broadened. That kind of person just doesn't interest me.

When my own mom told me it was high time I wean my son from the breast, that I was probably harming him by nursing for so long, I sent her lots of great information . . . Dr. Sears, KellysMom, etc. She went through it like a high school senior getting ready for debate team . . . highlighting any little snippet that supported her existing opinion, but completely closed to learning anything new. It was so disappointing to me. I can't ditch her as my mom, but I do avoid discussing parenting issues with her. Her opinions are set in stone. Maybe that's why God invented menopause.


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## Finch (Mar 4, 2005)

My two best friends in the whole world use CIO (controlled Ferber like) with their children. So yes.

They know I don't and won't do it, and don't push it on me.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *talk de jour* 
I don't judge people based on parenting style. I can wholeheartedly disagree and be disappointed, but it doesn't mean they're bad or evil, IMO.









: I guess I see things in a different light because I have 2 kids on both ends of the spectrum age-wise. I have a 15 yo ds and a 18 mo dd, and I know from my son that the things you are passionate about when your kids are little are so not what you care about when they get older.

I also know that with my friends I don't really talk parenting stuff that much, I use discussions boards for that type of conversation. That's just me though.

Shay


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ChristyMarie* 
***Little update***

In response to my links to read, she told me she would not be reading any of them because she didn't care to be told she would be messing up her child for life by not doing things a certain way. Um....ok.....

*She also told me that by following the "new way" of parenting practices I'm using I will be "raising a generation of undicipplined children that expect their parents to be their butlers and have things their way at all times and are completly unable to cope when their "needs" aren't met. "*

She hasn't even read enough to know that CIO is the "new way" if you look at history. She's usually into the history of stuff so I sent her a link explaining that but she won't even read it.

I love her but she's very opinionated. We cannot discuss politics of any kind. We cannot discuss finances. We cannot discuss weight/food/exercise. *sigh*

I think for now I'm just not responding in hopes of letting us both calm down. Unfortunately she's supposed to be meeting me and watching DS while I have a doctor appt on Thursday. If she doesn't show I guess I'll just have a nurse hold him.

Sounds like you have more reasons aside from her parenting choices to decide whether or not you want to continue the relationship. I mean what you describe sounds like the type of relationship one might have with a family member (for me this is my Dad) where you love the person but you know there are limits to the relationship.

Shay


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## formerluddite (Nov 16, 2006)

she sounds very defensive at this point; remember being pregnant and hormonal and freaking out at the realization that life as you know it is going to end? and *everyone* asking "is this your first baby?" and when you say yes they start unloading advice? she may be trying to keep a sense of control. detached parenting practices always promise parental control, which is very reassuring when you're afraid of the unknown.

it sounds like you've both managed to agree to disagree in the past, you probably can in this arena, too, so long as there's something left (besides parenting, food/weight/exercise, $, politics...) that's safe for you guys to talk about! movies?







and if you don't end up both making each feel bad by judging each other. but it's hard, because a best friend is the one you want to accept you, and help you problem solve, instead of tell you that you're doing everything wrong, and your problems are you own fault for not living a carbon copy of their life.


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## marlee (Aug 29, 2005)

If you can be over at her home having tea while the baby screams for one hour downstairs alone in his crib go for it.
I couldn't.
Maybe we will reconnect when the children are older


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## janerose (May 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heffernhyphen* 
I think I might wean myself of her friendship not because her opinions don't agree with yours (and mine), but because she sounds like a closed-minded person who is not at all interested in learning or having her ideas broadened. That kind of person just doesn't interest me.









:

One of the reasons the friend I mentioned in my earlier post & I have been able to stay friends is because she's at least open to new information. She may not agree or change her mind, but at least she gives everything a fair hearing you know?

That attitude would *seriously* bother me more than CIO or pretty much any other individual issue.

Holly


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## Emilie (Dec 23, 2003)

I think for now I'm just not responding in hopes of letting us both calm down. Unfortunately she's supposed to be meeting me and watching DS while I have a doctor appt on Thursday. If she doesn't show I guess I'll just have a nurse hold him.[/QUOTE]

How old is your ds? Are you concerned about her letting your child cio too while she watches him?


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## stacyann21 (Oct 21, 2006)

Honestly...no.


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## Emilie (Dec 23, 2003)

you do not care if your ds cries it out or you think she will not let him?
just trying to clarify.
My kids are 1 and 3 and it just is not an issue anymore. My friends also know I am the hippie of the group and probally just don't talk about things like that in front of me. Most of my friends that are pretty mainstream do sleep with their kids tho.
My one friend who had a hb asked me the day after if it was ok to let the baby cio cause her sister had told her to do that( the night he was born at home!!!) and she knew it did not feel ok. We talked about it and she was so happy to hear of another way. She has gotten her own footing and listens to herself on how to do things and is doing such a great job.( she may be reading this!!!LOL)
I am in tears thinking of how proud I am of her.
Anyhow- if she had let that baby cio after I had shared info with her I think it would have hurt me deeply and I would have felt sick about it. I would have remained her friend tho and continued promoting kinder ways to parent.
Oh- I am so sorry for you right now. That sucks.


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## Emilie (Dec 23, 2003)

howd it go? dd was born 11.28.05


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## beeboos (Jan 18, 2007)

I sometimes wish I could have the opinion of some here, but I have found it too hard to try to look the other way about parenting issues. I have had similar situations happen and it's just too hard for me. I find it hard to talk to friends about certain issues because I think most parents really do try to do what's best for their children.

What I can't put up with at all is when parents who aren't as "granolla" as I am give me advise about how to parent. Example: saying how healthy and happy my dd is but then start telling me to feed my baby solids even though she's wasn't ready yet. I just want to say but you were just commenting on how she was such a healthy, happy baby and how cute her fat cheecks are!

Warmly,

Sheryl


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## puamama (Jun 12, 2006)

After reading all the posts I'm amazed how many mama's wouldn't be friends over this issue...
I actually have a few friends who are republican...holy moly can you believe it??? I never thought that would happen. Our views are so completely opposite HOWEVER, we're all still good friends and don't let religion, politics, or views get in the way of our friendship.
I think different things work for different kinds of people, it's what makes the world go around.

peace on earth....


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## treemom2 (Oct 1, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *puamama* 
After reading all the posts I'm amazed how many mama's wouldn't be friends over this issue...
I actually have a few friends who are republican...holy moly can you believe it??? I never thought that would happen. Our views are so completely opposite HOWEVER, we're all still good friends and don't let religion, politics, or views get in the way of our friendship.
I think different things work for different kinds of people, it's what makes the world go around.

peace on earth....

You know its funny, I also have friends who are *gasp* Republican but they wouldn't let their children cio. I guess we all have limits on what is acceptable to us and many of us consider CIO abuse--physical and emotional. I know for me I feel so bad for the babes in this situation that it does end up ending friendships, I just don't believe people are good people who abuse their children by CIO--even after being educated about the physiological and emotional effects.


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## GradysMom (Jan 7, 2007)

CIO - Not for me and I have a neighbor who does it. We were there one night when they were making her cry it out and give up her passy. It was upsetting - but I tried to let that go. I was prego at the time. It seems to me that if I hold everyone to my standard I would be very lonely. I get very worked up about the issues and now carefully choose who I share my ideas with. As for family (and some pro circ family members) I am planning on giving alot of motherhood subscriptions.








:














:


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

OOps. Wrong post.


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## jennybean0722 (Jun 19, 2006)

I don't voice my questions about others' parenting styles unless they say something about mine. Then, the door is open to discuss. Other than that, my friends agree to not talk about parenting, and we're still friends. I just don't feel like I can convince them to not CIO or not circ, etc. by means of mouth. I try to do it by example.









I am exhausted, but my baby is extremely happy and developing quickly. I attribute this to breastfeeding on demand, co-sleeping, and not traumatizing him with circumcision!


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## Heffernhyphen (May 3, 2005)

Another thing to consider: If you and others with our more enlightened approach remove yourselves from her life, what chance does she have to ever see the light? Even if you never say a word about it, maybe by just being the gentle presence modeling another (BETTER!) way, she will come around. Let her surround herself in the cozy haven of like minds and she'll no doubt feel like she's just doing what everybody else is so it must be okay.


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## ChristyMarie (May 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *treemom2* 
You know its funny, I also have friends who are *gasp* Republican but they wouldn't let their children cio.

I'm a co-sleeping, baby-wearing Republican ~ and I'm even friends with lots of Democrats.







Somehow letting a baby cry is a heck of a lot different than a voting stye for me.

I also think it depends on how you view CIO - I see it as borderline abuse. That little baby didn't ask to be brought into the world, you know?


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## Cujobunny (Aug 16, 2006)

I agree with the pp who said that her mind might change since she's only pregnant with her first baby. I would tell her to keep an open mind since all babies have different temperaments and it may be very difficult for her to hear her baby cry and not respond. Also let her know how wonderful it is to comfort your baby, to cuddle them to sleep. And keep on plugging the AP stuff









Re: the question of whether or not I could be friends with someone who CIO, no I couldn't. I would try to change their mind before cutting them off, but I would feel so sad for the baby each time I saw him.


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## Katielady (Nov 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *treemom2* 
You know its funny, I also have friends who are *gasp* Republican but they wouldn't let their children cio. I guess we all have limits on what is acceptable to us and many of us consider CIO abuse--physical and emotional. I know for me I feel so bad for the babes in this situation that it does end up ending friendships, I just don't believe people are good people who abuse their children by CIO--even after being educated about the physiological and emotional effects.

I agree. A bunch of people have posted in this threads to basically say that ending a friendship over CIO is "judging someone for doing things differently." I don't think that's it at all. No one does EVERYTHING the same as other parents, and I have friends who do all kinds of things differently than me- I have friends who use strollers while I tend towards babywearing, friends who are really opposed to anything that smacks of being "girly" for their baby boys while I think purple should be a boy OR a girl color.







But for me, the CIO thing is a moral issue that's fundamental to one's core values, not just one of many mundane parenting choices.

I had a friend once who was a lot of fun to be around, and we had a lot in common. But he started dropping all these anti-semetic comments, which floored me as he is gay and Puerto Rican, and I dunno, I'm always suprised I guess when a member of one minority group discriminates against another. He had a really dysfunctional start in life and so I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt at first, and just educate him on why it's wrong to say the things he was saying. But it wasn't working, and I had to cut off all contact with him. To me, that's a totally equivalent situation. He had values that were simply incompatible with mine. The same is true for me for people who let their babies CIO. I have some sympathy for some of them, because often they just don't know any better, much like my friend who was raised by bigoted parents who taught him to say things like "what a cheap Jew." But in the end, it doesn't matter very much where the values came from- if they're incompatible with your own, it's hard to be friends.

I have moms in my playgroup who CIO, and I'm still friendly with them. But I won't seek out becoming closer friends with them outside of our weekly playgroup. It's a lot more complicated with existing friends, as in the case of the OP. Hopefully the friend I have who says she plans to CIO will change her mind. If not, I won't cut her off, but I can't see us remaining as close after that. It's just reality.


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## TxMominCT (Nov 23, 2006)

I didn't read all of the posts, but two of my good friends are baby wisers.







They really honestly believe that they have to let their baby cry because babies are manipulative. It really bothers me, but I still love them. They think it's so sad that I am so sleep deprived. I don't know what to tell them. It's hard. We just kind of avoid the topic. I think I might let them know about no cry sleep solution though, we'll see!
What does being a republican have to do with CIO?? Wait never mind, I don't want to get into politics I know I'll regret it!


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## Barb36 (Mar 19, 2006)

I agree with what the pp has said here...CIO it is a very different issue than, say, cloth diapering (although I think it's really important to do!). I have three friends who did CIO and I really think that they didn't feel they could manage sleepless nights anymore. I'm an older mom (as are they) and sleep is really different in your late 30s and 40s...it's much more delicate and much more necessary to function! Of course, not for everyone but it seems to be a trend among the women I know.

Anyway, I agree totally that CIO is harmful and shouldn't be done but I also understand the kind of strain that some of these moms are under who choose it. I guess for me it depends on the reasoning behind the decision to some extent...it still makes me cringe to imagine it and I feel terribly for the babies but it gives me some compassion for the mother when I understand that she feels pressed against the wall. I do have one friend who subscribed to HSHHC and it just fit her personality to have things routine down to the minute...I think it's insane but that's her personality.

I dunno...I guess for me keeping or ending the friendship would be question based on the individual relationship and all it's complexities.


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Katielady* 
But for me, the CIO thing is a moral issue that's fundamental to one's core values, not just one of many mundane parenting choices.

I agree. I have friends who do all sorts of things differently to me and who have all sorts of different views and practices. But I have no racist friends, no child abusers, etc. They can be Republican, but if they think of beggars as filthy dropouts who should be shot, then they're not my friend.


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## Symbal (Oct 27, 2006)

My Mom did that. DP's cousin did that. I hated it. CIo seemed unnatural to me from the start.

When I was younger, I was put in charge of watching a three month old while his mama snuck a quick nap. I had to have been about twelve. When the baby cried, I picked him up and carried him. I rarely put him back down, rather he slept a lot better when with me. His mother came back at me two days later, angrier than a bear, accusing me of 'spoiling' him when I picked him up when he cried. She had used the CIO approach for his first days of life, and now thought I had 'spoiled' him because I responded to his needs? I asked he why he was 'spoiled' if I merely responded to his need for human touch? She claimed he was manipulating me to get attention.







: I told her (at twelve!) that babies don't understand the very concept of manipulation, and that I was sorry for her son. She also parented a little girl with musclar distrophy and mental retardation.

That entire experience had put a very sour taste in my mouth for CIO parenting.


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## smallmama (Dec 6, 2006)

Yes, I have friends who CIO. It's too much a sensitive subject - we don't talk about it. I also have friends who don't BF. They know I do and that it's important to _me_, but they make their own decisions and I try to respect that.


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## momuveight2B (Mar 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ChristyMarie* 
I'm a co-sleeping, baby-wearing Republican ~ and I'm even friends with lots of Democrats.







?

Me too! What's wrong with being Republican







: ? No, don't answer and divert the thread.

I don't let my kids CIO and I don't let adults CIO either. I have worked in hospitals and nursing homes with people of all ages and everyone from cradle to grave has nighttime needs. If we treated people in institutions the way babies are treated in private homes it would be abuse. When there is a need the only morally responsible & compassionate thing to do is to respond.

I have known moms who use CIO, usually I have met them in playgroups or whatever but we don't pursue the friendship further. It is usually not the only significant difference in parenting styles. I am pretty obviously a hippy so they know I'm weird and if they aren't of that mindset then they are friendly but not friends KWIM. I am not against the friendship but it just never develops.


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## Katielady (Nov 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momuveight2B* 
Me too! What's wrong with being Republican







: ? No, don't answer and divert the thread.

I don't let my kids CIO and I don't let adults CIO either. I have worked in hospitals and nursing homes with people of all ages and everyone from cradle to grave has nighttime needs. If we treated people in institutions the way babies are treated in private homes it would be abuse. When there is a need the only morally responsible & compassionate thing to do is to respond.

great point. I said something along these lines to DH when he was trying to get me to respond less to DS in the night. He was like, "I think you should only go in there if he's SCREAMING." First I told him how proud I am that I'd learned DS's precry cues and could tell them apart from sleep noises, so that he *never* ends up "screaming," or crying at all. And then I said, "What if you were bedridden with four broken limbs and sleeping in another room, and for half an hour you were calling out to me asking for some food, just saying "hey. hey there. could I have an apple?" And I could hear you, but waited until you were screaming at the top of your lungs to come in. Don't you think that would have a bad effect on our relationship?" He didn't have much to say after that. Heh.

I can't imagine not responding to my son's "hey. hey mom?" noises. And I love that DS knows I'll always come.


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## quinbearzmama (Jan 26, 2005)

I do have a few friends who let their babies CIO. They aren't my closest friends, but they are friends who have known me for years and years- way before any of us thought about becoming parents. We are spread all over the country, so they aren't friends that I see much at all and perhaps that's why we are still able to stay in touch and be friends. (I find that the local friends I have are people who do share my parenting values.) We are aware that we have different approaches to parenting and haven't discussed our views beyond establishing that we respect one another's right to make our own choices. Like another pp said, it's a sensitive area. However, I do like the fact that I have people in my life- if only on the periphery- who have known me for sometime and are a part of my history. I know that my parenting friends have become a part of that story as well...So, do I agree with the choices that these friends have made? No. Do I feel as though the peaceful approach I am taking to parenting can better the world? Absolutely. But I'm not going to cut people out of my life simply because they are making different choices. (but secretly, do I wish they could experience the satisfaction of responding to their children's needs- OH YEAH!)


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## Heffernhyphen (May 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TxMominCT* 
. . . two of my good friends are baby wisers. They think it's so sad that I am so sleep deprived. I don't know what to tell them.

Tell them that sleep deprivation is a short term problem, unlike those that can be a result of letting a baby CIO.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

It's not about differing views. It's about their parenting in a way that some of us feel is abusive. If you don't understand why that changes a friendship and makes it hard to feel close to and understand someone, then I really don't know what to say.


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## whateverdidiwants (Jan 2, 2003)

I couldn't, especially if they let their child CIO when I'm around (especially with my dd). Like some of the previous posters, I go by what I call the "Bedridden Alzheimers Grandma Rule" - that if you wouldn't do it to grandma, you shouldn't do it to your baby. I have 2 relatives who are currently living with Alzheimers, and I've seen firsthand where the toddlers in the family get chastised much more readily (and harshly) than the elderly relative for doing the exactly the same thing. It's crazy.


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## MAMom (Mar 24, 2005)

I have phased out some friendships over parenting styles....CIO, spanking and other undesireable behaviors.


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## formerluddite (Nov 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Symbal* 
When I was younger, I was put in charge of watching a three month old while his mama snuck a quick nap. I had to have been about twelve. When the baby cried, I picked him up and carried him. I rarely put him back down, rather he slept a lot better when with me. His mother came back at me two days later, angrier than a bear, accusing me of 'spoiling' him when I picked him up when he cried. She had used the CIO approach for his first days of life, and now thought I had 'spoiled' him because I responded to his needs? I asked he why he was 'spoiled' if I merely responded to his need for human touch? She claimed he was manipulating me to get attention.







: I told her (at twelve!) that babies don't understand the very concept of manipulation, and that I was sorry for her son. She also parented a little girl with musclar distrophy and mental retardation.

wow! great for you to stand up to an adult (and employer) like that at 12!


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## dlwdmw (May 27, 2005)

I'm friends with lots of people who have different parenting styles. I don't want them judging me and so I try not to judge them. (Or if I do, it's only in my head...







)


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## 2mama (Feb 3, 2006)

There must be qualities in her that your adore otherwise you wouldn't be friends. In any real friendship there are going to be things that you don't like either. I would just let it go. All of your conversations don't relove around it, so unless she asks for help stick to neutral grouds.


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## Barb36 (Mar 19, 2006)

Wise advise from the pp. One day, these issues will be a thing of the past...it would be a shame if you later regreted losing the friendship.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

No, they won't be a thing of the past. The child will have to live with the effects forever. Children are also likely to mirror their parents' parenting, because they are such influencial role models. Therefore, their grandchildren are more likely to be raised in a similar manner, and then you have to continue to be uncomfortable and alarmed about that. I can see a conversation between my friend and I when she is a grandmother, where she tells me that her daughter's baby won't sleep at night so she recommended just letting them cry like she did. I can see her on the phone with her son, telling him to just let the baby cry; she did it, and her babies were 'fine.' That's generally what happens, unless enlightenment dawns upon them. I think our children feel the effects of our parenting forever, and unless someone decides to change their parenting style and their views on their whole parent philsophy, it doesn't become a thing of the past. Crying it out isn't just about sleep-training; most people do it to teach their baby to be independant, not to rely on them, and that basically mommy has needs, too and so on. That's a precursor to, I think, a lot of other parenting practices that are unresponsive.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

It's a difference of experiences, because most of the people I meet say they are, primarly, doing it to teach their child to sleep but make other comments related to teaching them to be independant and not reliant on the parent, teaching them to meet their own needs, etc. I do agree there are some for whom it is just sleep training, but for others it's about more than that. I know some of them, and they do it just kind of...well, to teach the kid their place, and they make that very clear when talking about it.


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## Barb36 (Mar 19, 2006)

And in that case one has to wonder how such a friendship ever evolved with such drastically different values.

Most of the people I know who did CIO also are extremely loving parents who felt they had to sleep train to survive...and they thought it was in the best interests of their children. In every other way, they are very attached and attentive parents. It's just that one area where there seems to be a disconnect.

The issue the pp mentions about indepence and self-reliance is totally foreign to me...I have no friends (CIO folks and not) who have this kind of orientation toward parenting. I doubt I could be friends with someone who believed this was beneficial to their children. And, I agree entirely that this kind of parenting leads to long term problems and it would probably be impossible for me to overlook that.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Quote:

And in that case one has to wonder how such a friendship ever evolved with such drastically different values.
Exactly. It does make me question the relationship, because I no longer feel like I know that person and am confused how we became friends with such different values...but I guess it's because you don't really talk about your parenting views before you're a parent. I sure didn't when I was 15. Developing a parenting philosophy and discussing it with my friends was the last thing on my mind...and yet CIO never crossed my mind back then. I guess I just assumed we all felt the same, since we got on so well...and now some of the things my friends say just break my heart.

I have met people who believe they -must- sleep train their child and are doing what is best, and they are still wonderful, loving parents who do believe in putting their kids first and meeting their needs and so on. But most of the people I know who do it do make comments about other things that are even more concerning; it's abundantly clear that it's not just about training their kid but getting time to themselves at night and just...lots of other issues. I am not saying that all parents who CIO are like this, only that most of the people I encounter make statements that are related to basically teaching the child their place.


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## gringacely (Aug 20, 2006)

I do have friends who let their infants CIO. Although I don't agree with it, I don't think that it is my place to judge them about it. Some of the things I do with my kids (extended breastfeeding, etc) they may have a hard time with. I think most of us are doing the best we can.


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## Nazsmum (Aug 5, 2006)

You should stay friends. I have very few! If I had a friend that disagreed with me so what? You sleep your way and she can sleep hers. If you are good friends you will surive anything.


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## Lady Lilya (Jan 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ChristyMarie*
-Knowing alternatives: she knows alternatives and says that "if a baby is fed and dry there's no reason they shouldn't lay down and go to sleep. A couple of pats on his back and that's it. It worked when I was babysitting and they were fine." And while she's gung-ho to read the pro-CIO book she refuses to read any alternative books - I'm simply HOPING that she'll read the links I sent her.

Can you give me those links?

I never really thought about this topic before. I am about 3 months pregnant now. I always figured I would go with instinct. I figured that if the baby seemed to cry a lot I would have to figure out what is wrong. I couldn't imagine leaving the baby for hours crying. I also don't know how fast I should come running.

My intent was for the baby not to be sleeping in a room by himself where he couldn't see me. Wherever in the house I am doing something, that is where I would bring him. My mother did that, and we learned to sleep in any sort of noise and commotion

I would love to read the opinions of others about this. It has been almost 20 years since I have been around a baby, so I am all guesses at this point.

------

To answer the OP's question.....my beliefs are very abnormal among people I know. For the vast majority of my beliefs, I know nobody who shares them. Sometimes it is hard for me not to be disrespectful to people who are doing something I think is horrible, but in general it is just something I am used to.

I would LIKE to make friends who are sympathetic to my ways. I am so glad to have found this place.

------

Parents' rights to parent as they choose is a VERY big issue to me. I wouldn't like to think of myself disrespecting another parent's choices. I think those choices are so valuable.

On the other hand, I think we have a responsibility to guide the growth of our communities by showing our approval and disapproval for different behaviors. Otherwise, we let the mainstream media and the public education system determine the future of our culture and community. If people applied more scolding and shunning, maybe the central authorities would have to apply less force (ie: prison).

If I were in that situation, I think I would make my objections clear, and make clear that there are also consequences, such as not doing certain things together. That seems the best way to guide good behavior.

------

At this point my experience with this issue has been with a cat.









We adopted Enki at the age of 7 weeks. It was our intention to co-sleep with him, as we did with out other cat, aged 11 at the time (almost 14 now). But, since a 7-week old cat has full function of his body, he wouldn't sit still. All night he was sticking his paws in our eyes and noses and stuff like that. We seriously couldn't get any sleep.

By this time, our older cat transfered herself to the couch to get away from him. We tried putting him to sleep in several places, but he was always back playing with our faces. So, we tried putting him out of the bedroom and closing the door. We figured he then still had access to food and water and kitty litter, and nice sleeping options -- just not us.

Well, he sat outside the door and cried all night. Every time I checked on him, he was in a good mood and happy to see me --not the slightest bit stressed or upset. He just wanted to come in with us.

Both of us worked full time. We weren't getting much sleep like this either, so we locked him in the bathroom with the kitty litter and his own food and water (the older cat preferred to go to the toilet outside via the cat door). We could still hear him crying, but at least we could sleep.

I felt SOOOOO guilty. I thought we were traumatizing him. But, each morning he was cheerful and happy. I thought he would hate the bathroom, but he came to love it. Every night, we first tried him in bed, then outside the bedroom door, then finally the bathroom. It took several weeks before he stopped screaming all night. He was very hoarse by that time.

After a few weeks of this, he was perfectly fine to roam the house freely at night. He mostly didn't come in the bed, but occasionally did sleep on the bottom.

The only time after that we had an issue was the times we took them both with us on vacation to my parents' country house. Then, he would cry unless he could be in the bed with us. He still disturbed us a bit, but was much better than when he was tiny.

As bad as I felt about locking him in the bathroom all night, he didn't seem any worse for the wear. He was very attached to both of us -- especially my husband. He rode on my husband's shoulders all the time. If my husband would leave the house, he would scream. Then I would speak to him and hold him and he was comforted and went back about his business.

We were very sad to lose him at the age of 2 to a heart defect.

Of course there are many differences between Enki and a baby. (For one, Enki never seemed to sleep when he was little. I hear babies sleep a lot.) Cats are able, after 6 weeks of age, to be left unattended. We left him alone all day with the other cat, so why couldn't he be without us at night? Not the same as a baby at all. I don't intend for my baby to be alone EVER, unless he is sleeping and I walk into the other room for something.


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## Lady Lilya (Jan 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *formerluddite* 
she sounds very defensive at this point; remember being pregnant and hormonal and freaking out at the realization that life as you know it is going to end? and *everyone* asking "is this your first baby?" and when you say yes they start unloading advice? she may be trying to keep a sense of control. detached parenting practices always promise parental control, which is very reassuring when you're afraid of the unknown.

This sounds to me like a very wise analysis.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

I would stick around. She is speaking as a woman who does not know what it is like to hold her newborn in her arms. To have a feeling of love and protectiveness come over her that can't be described in words.

Right now, I would be more concerned about the fact that she is not trying to respect your parenting choices too much.


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