# DH Showers with dsd.. Is this OK?



## TipToe (Jun 11, 2008)

Hi everyone,

I'm looking for a little input, and so here I am at MDC! Here's the thing- my dsd is 10. The other afternoon, they got home from school and were caught in the rain. They immediately went upstairs to shower together. I absolutely do not have a problem with parents showering with our kids. Just want to clarify that. I am a little concerned in this case because dsd is older now and is quite, shall we say, curious about adult things. dh has said that he's not comfortable showering with her anymore. Any input from mamas (or daddies) who have been there?


----------



## elisent (May 30, 2006)

I wouldn't feel comfortable with that.


----------



## ChristaN (Feb 14, 2003)

I (as the mom) showered with my dds when they were quite a bit younger and they still shower with each other about half of the time (two girls who are sisters and 2 yrs apart in age). However, neither of them would be comfortable showering with me anymore and they certainly would not be comfortable showering with their dad. They are 9 and 7. I think that they stopped showering with me by about age 4.

I would not be comfortable with a 10 y/o showering with an adult at all especially an adult of the opposite sex.


----------



## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

In all honesty I would not be comfortable with that. Not saying that is some families it isnt just fine but for me it is outside my comfort zone.


----------



## woo27ks (Jan 15, 2003)

Personally, I believe that to be very inappropriate behavior.


----------



## TexasSuz (Mar 4, 2002)

If it is his natural born daughter then I do not have an issue with it but if it is his step daughter then I think it is strange.


----------



## gingerstar (Jun 10, 2005)

I would not be comfortable with it, natural born or step.


----------



## ChristaN (Feb 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Vancouver Mommy* 
To quote another thread from earlier today, interesting first post, TipToe.










I imagine that I wouldn't want to reveal too much about my identity if I had concerns of this sort, either. I'm assuming that this is not this person's first time to MDC







.


----------



## Picturesque (May 31, 2007)

If her father has already stated that he is no longer comfortable with showering with her, then what's the issue? It doesn't sound like it will happen anymore, anyway, which IMO is a good thing.


----------



## ananas (Jun 6, 2006)

I don't think I would be comfortable with it.


----------



## 5in9years (Nov 18, 2005)

If he's uncomfortable, it should stop. I think I'd be concerned if he weren't uncomfortable, though, at that age. Around 9 or so, my dh wasn't comfortable even wrestling with our daughters anymore, so he switched to other ways to play with them. He absolutely does not want to see them nude, and that's 100% reciprocal.


----------



## ktmama (Jan 21, 2004)

I would not be comfortable with my 10 yo showering with her dad.


----------



## TipToe (Jun 11, 2008)

Thank you all for sharing your opinions. Sometimes you just have to bounce things off of people and make sure you're not overreacting, especially in a step-parent situation. If it doesn't happen again, then I guess it won't be an issue. If, like on other occassions, it does happen again, I may be back for a little more feedback!


----------



## dynamicdoula (Jun 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TipToe* 
Hi everyone,

I'm looking for a little input, and so here I am at MDC! Here's the thing- my dsd is 10. The other afternoon, they got home from school and were caught in the rain. They immediately went upstairs to shower together. I absolutely do not have a problem with parents showering with our kids. Just want to clarify that. I am a little concerned in this case because dsd is older now and is quite, shall we say, curious about adult things. dh has said that he's not comfortable showering with her anymore. Any input from mamas (or daddies) who have been there?

If one of the parties isn't comfortable anymore, it's time to stop. Simple!


----------



## pajamajes (Feb 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TexasSuz* 
If it is his natural born daughter then I do not have an issue with it but if it is his step daughter then I think it is strange.

agreed.


----------



## Marcee (Jan 23, 2007)

It is not soemthing that I would be comfortable with.


----------



## chiromamma (Feb 24, 2003)

This brings to mind an issue at our house that I have a hard time figuring out.
Dd is 13, quite developed and quite modest. Fine.
DS1 is 11, small, no signs of puberty and very comfortable being naked. I ask him to respect other people's modesty and at least put on underpants. DH thinks it's fine that DS is comfortable with his body and I should ease up a bit.
I'm not sure. I totally see DH's point.
Feedback?


----------



## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

As long as it's his natural daughter, I don't see the big deal. We have friends with opposite sex older kids who still use the bathroom or are naked in front of them in other perfectly appropriate situations, and as long as both parties are comfortable, it doesn't concern me. I will not be surprised if my daughter and (male) partner are still comfortable seeing each other naked at that point.

If your partner is no longer comfortable, then he needs to find a way to tell her that WITHOUT making nudity seem like something that is shameful or embarrassing.


----------



## Demeter9 (Nov 14, 2006)

One person isn't comfy, then that is the end of it under any circumstances.

Simple.


----------



## Peppermint Leaf (Jan 11, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elisent* 
I wouldn't feel comfortable with that.


----------



## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

My dd will be 12 next month. The only reason she doesn't still shower with me is I don't want to share my only private time, lol. I had to kick her out because I want to be alone for a few minutes a day. She's still comfy being nude around DH (step dad since she was 2yo) but he's starting to avert his eyes uncomfortably....so I've asked her not to hang out nude outside her room, but everyone's ok with her just walking from the shower to her room nude etc.


----------



## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

i dont see this any different than a mom showering with a 10 yo son or mom in the hot tub w/ a 10 yo son. we do have a pretty lax attitude about nudity in our home but i think its sexist to think a mom/son would be ok but not a dad/daughter (not that anyone said that but thought i would put that out there...would ppl have such a hard time w/ a mom/son combo??). If so, i think thats being a bit prudish.


----------



## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

If DH isn't comfortable showering with her anymore, then they shoudln't be doing so anymore. If DSD isn't comfortable showering together, then they shouldn't be doing so. If both of them are comfortable, then it's not a problem, no matter what their ages.

Oh, and a "troll" is an internet troublemaker- somebody posting for the express purpose of stirring up trouble. It's also against the UA (user agreement) to call somebody else a troll. If you suspect foul play, report the post.


----------



## Porcelain Interior (Feb 8, 2008)

Little hairs on the back of my neck are standing up, I'm a little confused.

I wonder why a grown man would shower with his step daughter if he wasn't comfortable....why is he doing it?!

Why would a grown man shower with his 10 year old step daughter rainstorm or not?

And why would you come here and say "well if it happens again...."

Seems really strange. Why would it happen again if your husband doesn't like it?

I have a feeling he wouldn't do it if he didn't like it.

It just doesn't make any sense at all.


----------



## New_Natural_Mom (Dec 21, 2007)

nak

maybe i am uptight or a prude or somethinng, but ICKY! That wouldnt fly for me.

something funny....DH used to sleep naked before DS was born, but now since we co-sleep he feels that he has to wear undies to bed. DS is 9 weeks old. I find that so funny.


----------



## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Porcelain Interior* 
I wonder why a grown man would shower with his step daughter if he wasn't comfortable....why is he doing it?!

This involves OP's DH and the OP's stepdaughter- which implies that it's the man's biological child (though they may not live together full time.)


----------



## thixle (Sep 26, 2007)

I'm trying to figure out how to word this.
If he is uncomfortable, why is he doing it?

With that being said *ahem* caught in a rainstorm, took a warm shower together... and this--

Quote:

If, like on other occassions, it does happen again, I may be back for a little more feedback!
makes me think either this story is not entirely true, or that there IS something to be worried about, his biological child or not.

And nope, I'm not a prude. I was abused, and this story has my radar up.
So, opinion from a mama that is comfy being nude, but totally uncomfortable with this situation (of course, I don't know the whole story, but neither does anyone else).


----------



## BelovedK (Jun 7, 2005)

Hi all, several posts have been removed for casting suspicion. The concerns that some of you have are better handled by reporting the posts and if there are grounds for removing the post/thread, it will be handled.

Thanks


----------



## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
i dont see this any different than a mom showering with a 10 yo son or mom in the hot tub w/ a 10 yo son. we do have a pretty lax attitude about nudity in our home but i think its sexist to think a mom/son would be ok but not a dad/daughter (not that anyone said that but thought i would put that out there...would ppl have such a hard time w/ a mom/son combo??). If so, i think thats being a bit prudish.

I wouldn't think mom and son would be OK either. And it's completely different than a hot tub as you wear a swimsuit in there.

I also don't think it is prudish. _I think at that age children need their privacy just as much as adults do._ I know a woman who used to force her way into the bathroom to wash her son's hair until he was 14. He was completely uncomfortable with that but mom didn't care.

I think that four is a good cut off age for taking baths/showers with children of the opposite sex.


----------



## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

i think people are to quick to supect nastiness for a loving family. that is sad. if the dad is no longer comfy showerinfg with his dd then he needs to nicely tell her so.
i think it is a shame that a dad would feel uncomfortable horsing around with his dds. just because they are girls they no longer get physical attention? how messed up have we become that families seeing each other naked has become this sex crazed act?

h


----------



## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

i am glad there is a specific cut off age of bathing with your kids.







: i will be sure to let my boys know this. sheesh. everything becomes nasty at 4? how about if you nurse at 4 or co-sleep at 4? does that all stop too and become perverted? i have a wee-one turning 4 in july... he still seems like a baby. i can't even wrap my mind around this... seriously.

h


----------



## Porcelain Interior (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaofthree* 
i think people are to quick to supect nastiness for a loving family. that is sad. if the dad is no longer comfy showerinfg with his dd then he needs to nicely tell her so.
i think it is a shame that a dad would feel uncomfortable horsing around with his dds. just because they are girls they no longer get physical attention? how messed up have we become that families seeing each other naked has become this sex crazed act?

h

The author is the one that framed the question. I didn't say nasty, I said the whole thing just seems rather peculiar. The wording and explanations of the dad.

Horsing around and showering are two different things. If I saw a 10 year old girl horsing around naked with her dad in the shower yeah red flags...


----------



## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaofthree* 
i am glad there is a specific cut off age of bathing with your kids.







: i will be sure to let my boys know this. sheesh. everything becomes nasty at 4? how about if you nurse at 4 or co-sleep at 4? does that all stop too and become perverted? i have a wee-one turning 4 in july... he still seems like a baby. i can't even wrap my mind around this... seriously.

h

Wow you are really reading a lot of things that were not said. No one said anything about being nasty or perverted. What was said was that children like their privacy as well. I think 4 is a good cut off to stop taking showers with the opposite sex because that is generally when they start getting curious, asking questions, and trying to touch.

If you are comfortable with your four year old daughter grabbing for her dad then by all means that is your problem. But my DH would NOT be comfortable with that so four seems like a good age. What you do in your own home is your business. No need to get so nasty.


----------



## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

teh wrestling comment was in reguards to 5in9years post about her dh not wanting to wrestle with his dds anymore. i think that is just sad. not all touching is bad touching. not every man is out to molest his children. maybe i am just a weirdy here that my family actually touches each other and *gasp* nothing nasty happens.

h


----------



## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

see it isn't a PROBLEM to ask questions. to educate your kids. my children have had no privacy issues.. the boys are all comfy being naked, maybe it is because I haven't made it out to be nasty. my dd is now very modest and we all respect that. dh is modest too, and we respect that.
as to the op if you dh is uncomfortable showering with his dd then he can nicely tell her to stop and leave it at that. but my first reaction isn't nasty thoughts.
curiousity isn't a sin in my book and education isn't a dirty word.
all this being said if you or the child is uncomfortable then it needs to stop. BUT it should never be in a shaming way. maybe we could end up raising children who aren't so freaked out about nakedness together.

h


----------



## kennedy444 (Aug 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ChristaN* 
I would not be comfortable with a 10 y/o showering with an adult at all especially an adult of the opposite sex.

Yeah that! It just doesn't seem appropriate, at all.

I can't imagine ever showering with my own 10yr son or my DH showering with our 10 yr old dd.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
i dont see this any different than a mom showering with a 10 yo son or mom in the hot tub w/ a 10 yo son. we do have a pretty lax attitude about nudity in our home but i think its sexist to think a mom/son would be ok but not a dad/daughter (not that anyone said that but thought i would put that out there...would ppl have such a hard time w/ a mom/son combo??). If so, i think thats being a bit prudish.

Well the vast majority of perps of sexual abuse are men who are heterosexual in their adult orientation. Sooo... i tend to trust mamas a heck of a lot more than I do fathers. There's sexist and then there's reality, yk?

Not that I'd be too cool about a mother/son combo of this age showering together either. But I always see the 'omgz reverse sexism' card pulled in these discussions and I think the logic is seriously flawed.


----------



## elisent (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
i dont see this any different than a mom showering with a 10 yo son or mom in the hot tub w/ a 10 yo son. we do have a pretty lax attitude about nudity in our home but i think its sexist to think a mom/son would be ok but not a dad/daughter (not that anyone said that but thought i would put that out there...would ppl have such a hard time w/ a mom/son combo??). If so, i think thats being a bit prudish.


I have a 9yo son and I would not feel comfortable showering with him, either.


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

To me, it's up to the comfort level of the two people showering. If I am not one of them, my comfort level is not an issue.


----------



## Cherie2 (Sep 27, 2006)

I think it really depends on the family nudity comfort level, but it sounds like your dh is not comfortable with it.. so why does he continue?

I know our family has a pretty low level of comfort around nudity, but others don't and I would never pass my comfort level on to another family. In fact I wish we were not so uptight, I really admire people who can teach their children that its just a body, and not give it sexual connotation.


----------



## *Erin* (Mar 18, 2002)

no way jose!


----------



## jeliphish (Jul 18, 2007)

not appropriate at all


----------



## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
I wouldn't think mom and son would be OK either. And it's completely different than a hot tub as you wear a swimsuit in there.

I also don't think it is prudish. _I think at that age children need their privacy just as much as adults do._

I think that four is a good cut off age for taking baths/showers with children of the opposite sex.

not everyone wears a swimsuit in their own hot tub.









i think children, and adults, need their privacy. I do think the comfort level of BOTH is important. However, I believe our society has a lot of hang ups about nudity. My family does not. My son co slept until around 8ish and we are all comfortable being nude around each other..its not a big deal at all w/ kids if its not made to be a big deal. I find around 13 things get a bit different since kids tend to be going through a lot of changes, but before those stages, I see no need to "make" kids behave a certain way around family depending on their clothed state.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaofthree* 
i think people are to quick to supect nastiness for a loving family. that is sad. if the dad is no longer comfy showerinfg with his dd then he needs to nicely tell her so.
how messed up have we become that families seeing each other naked has become this sex crazed act?


nicely said.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaofthree* 
i am glad there is a specific cut off age of bathing with your kids.







: i will be sure to let my boys know this. sheesh. everything becomes nasty at 4? how about if you nurse at 4 or co-sleep at 4? does that all stop too and become perverted? i have a wee-one turning 4 in july... he still seems like a baby. i can't even wrap my mind around this... seriously.

h

me either.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaofthree* 
see it isn't a PROBLEM to ask questions. to educate your kids. my children have had no privacy issues.. the boys are all comfy being naked, maybe it is because I haven't made it out to be nasty. maybe we could end up raising children who aren't so freaked out about nakedness together.

h

i think this is a big reason so many adults are so uptight. parents have made nudity out to be such a no no.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Well the vast majority of perps of sexual abuse are men who are heterosexual in their adult orientation. Sooo... i tend to trust mamas a heck of a lot more than I do fathers. There's sexist and then there's reality, yk?

Not that I'd be too cool about a mother/son combo of this age showering together either. But I always see the 'omgz reverse sexism' card pulled in these discussions and I think the logic is seriously flawed.

im not up on the whole perps of sexual abuse thing, but i dont have any in my family and im certainly not one (i have 3 sons, no daughters).

i do think its sexist to assume a father is a perp. I dont think its reality.

i would love to know how my logic that a father would love his dd just as much as a mother would love her son is flawed. *shrug*


----------



## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I'm not comfortable with that either.

It will also cause custody issues if her Mom isn't comfortable with it. And the judges will side with mom.


----------



## New_Natural_Mom (Dec 21, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaofthree* 
i think people are to quick to supect nastiness for a loving family. that is sad. if the dad is no longer comfy showerinfg with his dd then he needs to nicely tell her so.
i think it is a shame that a dad would feel uncomfortable horsing around with his dds. just because they are girls they no longer get physical attention? how messed up have we become that families seeing each other naked has become this sex crazed act?

h

horsing around clothed = 1 thing

horsing around naked = another


----------



## Mandynee22 (Nov 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TipToe* 
Thank you all for sharing your opinions. Sometimes you just have to bounce things off of people and make sure you're not overreacting, especially in a step-parent situation. If it doesn't happen again, then I guess it won't be an issue. If, like on other occassions, it does happen again, I may be back for a little more feedback!

I'm gonna be the oddball here 
I do think you're overreacting and should stay out. If he's uncomfortable then he should tell her so (his and her business) but if it's the situation in general- it's no big deal, IMO. And still their business anyway.
My dad used to let me shower with him when I was a kid. Had to have been at least 2nd grade because I lived on the Cape. Neither of us were bothered and it was a good way to get a kid who didn't feel like showering to do it 
His long time live in GF put a stop to it and I was pissed. That was pretty much the only one on one time I got since she had her four kids living at my dad's house. Even if they had been his kids too, I still would have been mad.
I was never molested by him, there was never anything inappropriate.
So.. IDK your situation, but if you guys have kids together or you have other kids or if you're always with them on their visitation time- make sure they have the opportunity to have one on one time if he decides to stop the showers.
I'm not saying it's wrong if he feels uncomfortable. Heck, I probably would too if I were him. But the importance of the showers probably has nothing to do with being naked.


----------



## Mandynee22 (Nov 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
I also don't think it is prudish. _I think at that age children need their privacy just as much as adults do._ I know a woman who used to force her way into the bathroom to wash her son's hair until he was 14. He was completely uncomfortable with that but mom didn't care.

Children only need privacy when they want it- and usually that starts a little before puberty (or a couple yrs before- depending on the kid) when the hormones start making them and a fig leaf isn't enough anymore.
Obviously, forcing your way in on a naked kid is wrong, but washing the hair of a kid that doesn't care if you see them nude is fine. IMHO


----------



## ChristaN (Feb 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mandynee22* 
Children only need privacy when they want it- and usually that starts a little before puberty (or a couple yrs before- depending on the kid) when the hormones start making them and a fig leaf isn't enough anymore.

Sometimes, sometimes not. My 7 3/4 y/o is pretty fine with running around nude around me and her dad still. Her older sister (9 3/4) started getting very upset if her little sister, cousin, or anybody came in the bathroom when she was going potty by the time she was 4 or 5, I'd say. She has been wanting privacy for changing for a few years now and she is not anywhere near puberty that I can tell.

From what the OP posted, it sounds like her dsd is not uncomfortable with the situation. I don't know that it is prudish to suggest to an older child that there comes a time where people may want privacy for bathing, though.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 

im not up on the whole perps of sexual abuse thing, but i dont have any in my family and im certainly not one (i have 3 sons, no daughters).

i do think its sexist to assume a father is a perp. I dont think its reality.

i would love to know how my logic that a father would love his dd just as much as a mother would love her son is flawed. *shrug*

Don't put words in my mouth.







I'm not saying this father is a perp, and I'm not saying he doesn't love his child as much as the mother does. I'm saying that it's not appropriate IMO for either parent to shower with an opposite gender child of this age. Period.

I am also saying it is NOT sexist to acknowledge that the vast majority of perps of child sexual abuse are (het) men, and to take extra precautions based on that. Sexual abuse of children is rampant, most of it is committed by men who they know and who everyone thinks is a normal, great guy... fathers, step fathers, brothers, neighbours, teachers. Regular dudes, and a LOT of them (or a few who get around a lot but don't get caught, but my money is on the theory that it is a LOT of men, or the few who have many many many victims would eventually get caught, no?)

It is NOT only or mainly convicted, obvious paedophiles who we need to watch out for. THAT is reality. Sad reality, but reality, and there is nothing offensive about acknowledging it as such and taking steps to protect our children. What is offensive is allowing the epidemic of child sexual abuse to continue unchallenged coz we don't want to step on toes or gawd forbid be accused of 'reverse sexism.'


----------



## hibana (Jun 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Demeter9* 
One person isn't comfy, then that is the end of it under any circumstances.

Simple.









:


----------



## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Don't put words in my mouth.







I'm not saying this father is a perp, and I'm not saying he doesn't love his child as much as the mother does. I'm saying that it's not appropriate IMO for either parent to shower with an opposite gender child of this age. Period.

I am also saying it is NOT sexist to acknowledge that the vast majority of perps of child sexual abuse are (het) men, and to take extra precautions based on that. Sexual abuse of children is rampant, most of it is committed by men who they know and who everyone thinks is a normal, great guy... fathers, step fathers, brothers, neighbours, teachers. Regular dudes, and a LOT of them (or a few who get around a lot but don't get caught, but my money is on the theory that it is a LOT of men, or the few who have many many many victims would eventually get caught, no?)

It is NOT only or mainly convicted, obvious paedophiles who we need to watch out for. THAT is reality. Sad reality, but reality, and there is nothing offensive about acknowledging it as such and taking steps to protect our children. What is offensive is allowing the epidemic of child sexual abuse to continue unchallenged coz we don't want to step on toes or gawd forbid be accused of 'reverse sexism.'

i was not putting words in your mouth. your words are quoted below for anyone to see.

what you are suggesting is that we mothers need to protect our daughters from their fathers. you are saying, here and below, that if we dont prevent fathers from showering with daughters, that we are allowing child sex abuse to continue...this is basically a conviction of all fathers...below you say its inappropriate period.

i just do not understand your logic. I do not think all daughters need to be protected from their fathers, by their mothers.

I just can not see your views as anything other than a conviction of all fathers.


----------



## Jannah6 (Aug 29, 2007)

If he's not comfortable with it, then why's he still doing it? Did he say when he became uncomfortable?


----------



## Mandynee22 (Nov 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ChristaN* 
Sometimes, sometimes not. My 7 3/4 y/o is pretty fine with running around nude around me and her dad still. Her older sister (9 3/4) started getting very upset if her little sister, cousin, or anybody came in the bathroom when she was going potty by the time she was 4 or 5, I'd say. She has been wanting privacy for changing for a few years now and she is not anywhere near puberty that I can tell.

From what the OP posted, it sounds like her dsd is not uncomfortable with the situation. I don't know that it is prudish to suggest to an older child that there comes a time where people may want privacy for bathing, though.

And that's great. SHE isn't comfortable with it and that needs to be respected. My point was that it's up to the kid. Some might want privacy at 2- others not till 12. Usually though (at least according to the show I heard on Dr Radio LOL) it happens around when puberty starts- which may or may not mean there are outside signs of it.
I don't think it's prudish at all to tell a child that YOU aren't comfortable being naked around them, or that they aren't cool being naked around you (or whoever). But if neither party cares (and I wonder if he really doesn't care but says he does to appease OP because he keeps on doing it) then it's no biggie.


----------



## uptowngirl (Jun 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Porcelain Interior* 
Little hairs on the back of my neck are standing up, I'm a little confused.

I wonder why a grown man would shower with his step daughter if he wasn't comfortable....why is he doing it?!

Why would a grown man shower with his 10 year old step daughter rainstorm or not?

And why would you come here and say "well if it happens again...."

Seems really strange. Why would it happen again if your husband doesn't like it?

It just doesn't make any sense at all.

I am ALL OVER THIS. Not ok--downright creepy IMO.


----------



## veronicalynne (Nov 4, 2006)

I would not be comfortable either. My dd1 who is now 3 1/2 stopped showering with her dad when she was about 3. It was his choice because she was getting kind of curious. I definitely would not be comfortable if she was 10 and showering with her dad.


----------



## Jster (Apr 22, 2003)

I think it's interesting/important to note that the OP felt uncomfortable about the situation, her little red flags went up. Usually, when there IS a problem with something being inappropriate, people do innately know, but they bury their intuition for whatever reason and it can lead to problems.

Here, it seems like the dad isn't comfortable, it struck the step mom as a little odd (and she knows the comfort levels for nudity, the likelihood of early puberty, etc. a lot better than any of us), and those feelings shouldn't be ignored. The book "Protecting the Gift" has some great suggestions about how to listen to your intuition in order to keep things safe. And it doesn't just have to be about fear of a sexual predator, it can be just so that everyone is comfortable. Maybe this mom having her radar up and talking to her DH will facilitate a conversation with DSD that showering together isn't a good idea anymore. And it sounds like, based on how the dad feels, that would be best.







We don't have to always look on the dark side in order to find a good solution to a given situation, and it is sometimes good to just look at the situation in hand and not get caught up in hypotheticals.


----------



## gingerbane (Jun 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jannah5* 
If he's not comfortable with it, then why's he still doing it? Did he say when he became uncomfortable?

I wouldn't be comfortable with that situation AT ALL.


----------



## nalo (Oct 25, 2005)

WAY outside the comfort zone for me. I find that very odd.


----------



## Mama2Bug (Feb 18, 2005)

I think the child in question is too old to shower/bathe with any adult of either gender. I find it difficult to believe that a ten year old girl would be entirely comfortable bathing with her father. (I understand that this may not be true for some families, but I can't wrap my brain around it, personally.)

I also wonder why, if Dad was uncomfortable, he chose to get in the shower with his daughter.

Additionally, I am curious to know what it is about a rainstorm that necessitates a shower. Dry clothes and a warm towel, yes. A shower though? Was it raining mud?


----------



## cats7494 (Mar 13, 2007)

I find it to be very odd...


----------



## snarfywarning (Dec 11, 2005)

Just some thoughts about why an uncomforable adult would still shower...

Maybe the daughter doesn't like to shower alone? Maybe it is the only way to get her to shower at his house? Maybe she isn't very efficient at bathing herself and wants an adult in there? Maybe she was afraid to take a shower alone during the rainstorm?

I only have a 2 year old and a newborn, but I already do things that make me plenty uncomfotable for both their benefit. Sometimes you just have to put your kids needs first. I mean hell, I am 22 and sometimes I still need someone sitting on the edge of the bathtub with me if I bathe at night, or my mom to come into the bathroom with me when I visit because I am afraid of her house.

In our culture it is pretty much viewed as unacceptable for a preteen to bathe with an opposite sex parent (or any parent, really) so even if there was nothing wrong going on, you could still get the red flags just because it is so culturally inapproprate.

ahhh wall of text. Just my ideas and frist thoughts on the situation.


----------



## skai (Apr 21, 2007)

I don't see what is so odd about it but then again in my culture kids and parents go to the sauna together (naked) until.. well, actually, we still go to the sauna together with my parents and I'm 31.







But I guess it is a cultural difference then.

If either one of them is feeling uncomfortable, then they should probably stop doing it.


----------



## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

My first thought upon reading this thread is "no way." I wouldn't permit it and in no way does it seem like something normal to me.

But I realize all people are different. I think it would depend on their relationship too and if they've been doing something like this all along. For instance, my DH has "never" showered with any of our children nor has he let them see him completely nude unless it was by accident, so he would in no way feel comfortable showering with our DD now and she's 6.







However, if he had been doing it all along then I doubt it would bother him.


----------



## mommy68 (Mar 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veronicalynne* 
I would not be comfortable either. My dd1 who is now 3 1/2 stopped showering with her dad when she was about 3. It was his choice because she was getting kind of curious. I definitely would not be comfortable if she was 10 and showering with her dad.

That was the thought that first entered my mind. My kids all started getting curious and asking questions around the age of 3-5 yrs old. I bathed with my boys and I still bathe with DD from time to time (she's 6).







My oldest was 8 when he was bathing with both siblings and that was it for him. He got to where he would wear his underwear in the tub because he didn't want them to see him.









It's one thing to let my children see me from time to time if they catch a glimpse of me dressing I guess. But I'm just not of the thinking that as a child gets older that it has to be the norm to see their adult parent naked in front of them at regular intervals.







And I think the majority agrees with that. Some families may be totally open with nakedness but usually it's the majority that is not.

I feel that at a certain age a child needs to be able to be able to be more personal and private about their bodies. There's nothing wrong with that IMO.

I will admit I'm a bit more open around my DD with my nakedness. I dress in front of my DD and she will ask why I'm wearing certain undies







and other questions about my breasts and I use it as a time to talk about our bodies. I see nothing wrong with it. I don't want her to be shy and afraid to show off her body. BUT I don't think I could have done that with my boys. I definitely feel more comfortable around my DD.


----------



## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skai* 
I don't see what is so odd about it but then again in my culture kids and parents go to the sauna together (naked) until.. well, actually, we still go to the sauna together with my parents and I'm 31.







But I guess it is a cultural difference then.

If either one of them is feeling uncomfortable, then they should probably stop doing it.









other cultures definitely have a healthier attitude about nudity.

i for one have never been of the sentiment that the majority is "right"..any time im in the majority, i start questioning why im there. lol!


----------



## hanno (Oct 4, 2006)

If he's not comfortable with it, I would say go with that. Men are not without instincts, so he probably knows it's time to not share showers. Although, it does sound like it's not a usual thing and just happened because they got caught in the rain.


----------



## harrietsmama (Dec 10, 2001)

I've just been dealing with this issue on another thread in the childhood years w/ my 8 yo dd and her dad. If we were in Europe or somewhere that nudity and sex weren't confused as one in the same, it would be a none issue. I *know* her dad is not doing anything inappropriate, I just got caught up in the fear of closed minded people around me. As long as both parties are ok, then it should be ok.


----------



## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gingerstar* 
I would not be comfortable with it, natural born or step.

What she said! DSD is TEN; dad is uncomfortable; stepmom is uncomfortable - came here to ask opinions. Honestly, you are putting the girl at risk - because if she mentions that she takes a shower with dad and is overheard by her pediatrician, teacher, etc, they are REQUIRED to report that to the state. Even if it is completely innocent, it could cause a rash of trouble. DSD is too old. I'd put a stop to it today.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chiromamma* 
This brings to mind an issue at our house that I have a hard time figuring out.
Dd is 13, quite developed and quite modest. Fine.
DS1 is 11, small, no signs of puberty and very comfortable being naked. I ask him to respect other people's modesty and at least put on underpants. DH thinks it's fine that DS is comfortable with his body and I should ease up a bit.
I'm not sure. I totally see DH's point.
Feedback?

I vote with you. At my house, underwear is the absolute minimum for everyone - even dd3 who just turned five. I made her wear underwear or a diaper as a minimum at all ages really. I'm just not down with her running around naked - anyone could come to the back door (which is a full window door) or walk by the house (family room has a huge, almost wall sized window that shows out on to the well used street). Eight and under, you can run from the bath to your room for jammies, but not older than that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
i was not putting words in your mouth. your words are quoted below for anyone to see.

what you are suggesting is that we mothers need to protect our daughters from their fathers. you are saying, here and below, that if we dont prevent fathers from showering with daughters, that we are allowing child sex abuse to continue...this is basically a conviction of all fathers...below you say its inappropriate period.

i just do not understand your logic. I do not think all daughters need to be protected from their fathers, by their mothers.

I just can not see your views as anything other than a conviction of all fathers.









I think you are misreading thismama, and I don't understand your logic in replying to her post. I don't see her convicting all fathers by believing that a pre-teen shouldn't shower with a grown man, related by blood or not. All mothers don't have to protect their daughters from all fathers. And I don't see her saying that a father who showers with a pre-teen daughter is necessarily doing other, more sinister things while in there. Just that it is inherently a bad idea, and shouldn't happen. At least that is how I read it - and I agree 100%.


----------



## pranamama (Nov 6, 2002)

OP, if you don't have any children with the guy, maybe you should get out now.....

It seems like you have a red flag going up here.


----------



## 5in9years (Nov 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaofthree* 
teh wrestling comment was in reguards to 5in9years post about her dh not wanting to wrestle with his dds anymore. i think that is just sad. not all touching is bad touching. not every man is out to molest his children. maybe i am just a weirdy here that my family actually touches each other and *gasp* nothing nasty happens.

h

I don't recall typing that he stopped touching them. Dh still hugs, kisses, and snuggles with the older girls. He plays games with them that involve shoving and jostling. He is just uncomfortable rolling around on the floor with them with the potential for accidentally grabbing breasts or genitals. Since he is uncomfortable, he has a right to limit their physical contact, right? Or do only kids have that right?


----------



## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

No. Not okay. Because I'm a close minded prude and I say so.


----------



## MayBaby2007 (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Don't put words in my mouth.







I'm not saying this father is a perp, and I'm not saying he doesn't love his child as much as the mother does. I'm saying that it's not appropriate IMO for either parent to shower with an opposite gender child of this age. Period.

I am also saying it is NOT sexist to acknowledge that the vast majority of perps of child sexual abuse are (het) men, and to take extra precautions based on that. Sexual abuse of children is rampant, most of it is committed by men who they know and who everyone thinks is a normal, great guy... fathers, step fathers, brothers, neighbours, teachers. Regular dudes, and a LOT of them (or a few who get around a lot but don't get caught, but my money is on the theory that it is a LOT of men, or the few who have many many many victims would eventually get caught, no?)

It is NOT only or mainly convicted, obvious paedophiles who we need to watch out for. THAT is reality. Sad reality, but reality, and there is nothing offensive about acknowledging it as such and taking steps to protect our children. What is offensive is allowing the epidemic of child sexual abuse to continue unchallenged coz we don't want to step on toes or gawd forbid be accused of 'reverse sexism.'


















I couldn't agree more, Thismama. Our world/society is different and we have to protect our kids--whether we hurt feelings or not. I don't give a flying monkey about anyone's feelings (reverse sexism or whatever) when it comes to protecting my dd.

To the OP: Something is terribly wrong here. Really. I'd call the authorities and I'd run away from this guy. He should. not. be. showering. with. his. daughter. Holy crackerjacks


----------



## hanno (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MayBaby2007* 
















I couldn't agree more, Thismama. Our world/society is different and we have to protect our kids--whether we hurt feelings or not. I don't give a flying monkey about anyone's feelings (reverse sexism or whatever) when it comes to protecting my dd.

To the OP: Something is terribly wrong here. Really. I'd call the authorities and I'd run away from this guy. He should. not. be. showering. with. his. teenage. daughter. Holy crackerjacks









teenage? I read 10


----------



## MayBaby2007 (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hanno* 
teenage? I read 10

Yeah, my bad. I corrected it. Age, IMO doesn't matter. He should. not. be showering with her.


----------



## Banana731 (Aug 4, 2006)

i know this thread has gotten away from the op's issue, to that ita with pp who said it should be determined by the comfort level of the child & dad

otherwise to comment on the general discussion ...

i agree with snarfy and skai. nudity is way too big of deal imo. it leads to way too many problems. prudishness is the reason why we have to deal with negative comments while nip,because breasts _can't_ _be_ anything but sexual to most people. i want my kids to be comfortable with their own bodies, and I want them to understand that no one should do anything to their bodies that they don't want done and that they should respect other's bodies as well. i think being nude around your kids makes those lessons easier. so nudity is pretty commonplace in my family.


----------



## JBaxter (May 1, 2005)

My boys were somewhere in that age group when they were uncomfortable see me or me seeing them naked. ( started knocking at the bathroom door, quite just jumping in and joining me in the shower etc) BUT they were TOTALLY comfortable seeing me give birth to their brother when they were 12 &9.

If the dad and daughter are comfortable they it is fine.


----------



## SusanElizabeth (Jun 2, 2006)

there are all sorts of issues here. When posts are deleted, there is not a fair balance.


----------



## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skai* 
I don't see what is so odd about it but then again in my culture kids and parents go to the sauna together (naked) until.. well, actually, we still go to the sauna together with my parents and I'm 31.







But I guess it is a cultural difference then.

If either one of them is feeling uncomfortable, then they should probably stop doing it.









Yeah, i'm in Europe too. This is totally normal to me. I would shower with my kids any age we both felt comfy doing so. I shower with complete strangers at the gym and sit nude with strangers of both sexes and all ages in the sauna, so to me it is nothing at all.

I think all children begin to want privacy just around when puberty hits, i was about 10 when i suddenly began wanting to dress in my room instead of in front of the fire while my parents had breakfast. My folks never pushed it. A child seeking privacy is one thing, a parent inflicting it is a form of shaming i am WAY less comfortable with than nudity.

FWIW i was sexually abused by a male member of my family for 7 years. The form of the abuse was not that he had showers with me. It was that he had sex with me. If there is no difference between a shower and sex in your mind then either your sex life is moribund or your showers are VERY exciting.


----------



## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MayBaby2007* 

To the OP: Something is terribly wrong here. Really. I'd call the authorities and I'd run away from this guy. He should. not. be. showering. with. his. daughter. Holy crackerjacks









wow...i dont think CPS should be called b/c a loving father showers w/ his dd. thats just sad. And I do find it sad that the implication is that men cant handle themselves around their nude dd's.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Banana731* 
i
nudity is way too big of deal imo. it leads to way too many problems. prudishness is the reason why we have to deal with negative comments while nip,because breasts _can't_ _be_ anything but sexual to most people. i want my kids to be comfortable with their own bodies, and I want them to understand that no one should do anything to their bodies that they don't want done and that they should respect other's bodies as well. i think being nude around your kids makes those lessons easier. so nudity is pretty commonplace in my family.









pretty common in my family too and never an issue, until teh child has a need for privacy. it does relate to NIP and so many other hang ups we have about our bodies in this country.









i teach my children every day that their bodies are their own and that they, and others should respect them....but that certainly doesnt mean we are all always clothed.


----------



## montlake (Mar 13, 2008)

I am not understanding

1. The need to shower because you were in a rainstorm??

2. That the need to shower because of a rainstorm was desperate enough for people to shower together and someone couldn't wait a few minutes.

The whole thing boggles me.


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
Yeah, i'm in Europe too. This is totally normal to me. I would shower with my kids any age we both felt comfy doing so. I shower with complete strangers at the gym and sit nude with strangers of both sexes and all ages in the sauna, so to me it is nothing at all.

I think all children begin to want privacy just around when puberty hits, i was about 10 when i suddenly began wanting to dress in my room instead of in front of the fire while my parents had breakfast. My folks never pushed it. A child seeking privacy is one thing, a parent inflicting it is a form of shaming i am WAY less comfortable with than nudity.

FWIW i was sexually abused by a male member of my family for 7 years. The form of the abuse was not that he had showers with me. It was that he had sex with me. If there is no difference between a shower and sex in your mind then either your sex life is moribund or your showers are VERY exciting.

Considering that spagettie straps are thought "immodest" and "asking for sex" by some in the US, are you surprised that a shared shower causes foaming at the mouth here? Skin = sex to a lot of Americans. This is the country that was founded by the Puritans and they never went away.


----------



## pranamama (Nov 6, 2002)

was the door locked???


----------



## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

I took showers with my father until puberty. There was nothing sexual, abusive, or otherwise inappropriate about it. Showering together saves water and can be a pleasant, relaxing time together. No big deal.

Not all 10-year-olds are pubescent.

I completely agree with the point several people have made: Shared showers should end when either party is uncomfortable. This is a problem in the OP. Her husband should tell his daughter he doesn't want to do it anymore and find another, clothed, way of bonding with her.


----------



## MadameXCupcake (Dec 14, 2007)

Growing up I would not have showered with my father or mother but that was because I got picked on for my body, bodies were sexual, and it just wasn't the environment where it would ever happen.

My three month old babe is welcome to bathe with me or her father for as long as she is comfortable. I guess all families are different. We are always walking around naked, its just more comfortable.

Its sad to see the posts that think this is a red flag. I guess I shouldn't be suprised this is the society where people are on edge if a dad wrestles or even holds hands with his children.

Maybe I should move to Europe?


----------



## pranamama (Nov 6, 2002)

I got molested as a child, and the grooming process started in the bathroom, complete with naked pictures of me, Children get molested in Europe too, please, this is not her child she had with the man and has seen interacting for the whole childs life, this is a guy with a failed marriage behind him and she is new on the scene, at least that was my take on it. Why people become outraged at the possible wrong accusation of something innappropriate is going on, I will not really don't understand. Go look up the registered sex offenders in your neighborhood. I am sure you will find some normal looking people on it.


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pranamama* 
I got molested as a child, and the grooming process started in the bathroom, complete with naked pictures of me, Children get molested in Europe too, please, this is not her child she had with the man and has seen interacting for the whole childs life, this is a guy with a failed marriage behind him and she is new on the scene, at least that was my take on it. Why people become outraged at the possible wrong accusation of something innappropriate is going on, I will not really don't understand. Go look up the registered sex offenders in your neighborhood. I am sure you will find some normal looking people on it.

So now a failed marriage is a red flag for pedophiles? Does this refer to women as well or just men?


----------



## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
So now a failed marriage is a red flag for pedophiles? Does this refer to women as well or just men?


i believe its just men. b/c we have already established here that its the men we need to worry about.


----------



## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
i believe its just men. b/c we have already established here that its the men we need to worry about.









That's just facts.







Unfortunate facts.


----------



## theretohere (Nov 4, 2005)

I'd be uncomfortable with it in this society.


----------



## MayBaby2007 (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
That's just facts.







Unfortunate facts.


















:

Pull up the sex offender list at anytown, USA and what do you see? 99% men. I live in a small town of 800 people (one gas station and a church, very crime free, older people, etc). There's 5 MALE sexual offenders in my small town alone. (And how many more that just haven't been caught to wind up a registered sexual predator???)


----------



## MayBaby2007 (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
wow...i dont think CPS should be called b/c a loving father showers w/ his dd. thats just sad. And I do find it sad that the implication is that men cant handle themselves around their nude dd's.










I'd call CPS in a heartbeat. It's not normal. Nobody will ever change my mind or make me feel bad for my convictions. Just. Not. Normal.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *montlake* 
I am not understanding

1. The need to shower because you were in a rainstorm??

2. That the need to shower because of a rainstorm was desperate enough for people to shower together and someone couldn't wait a few minutes.

The whole thing boggles me.









: Doesn't make sense whatsoever. I've been caught out in the rain (or mud, snow, sweating like a pig in the dead of summer, whatever) with lots of people...but I can't recall ever jumping in the shower with them. And if you're wet from a rainstorm....wouldn't a towel be more appropriate than to get more wet in the shower? The things that make you go "hmmmm".....


----------



## MadameXCupcake (Dec 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
i believe its just men. b/c we have already established here that its the men we need to worry about.










DH was raped by a woman as a young child.


----------



## bente (Apr 1, 2002)

I am scandinavian- live in scandinavia but have also lived in the us for many years. I would like to comment the nudity issue alone (not really the original post).

Why would anyone think that a father/daughter relationship would change as the child gets older - do you think that because the child is closer to being a woman that the father will have other than parental feelings for her?

How does being naked elevate the risk of anything?

Where I live nudity is a non-issue in families. Children are nude on the beach - on warm days you will see children undressing down to their undies og nude in the city parks.


----------



## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bente* 
I am scandinavian- live in scandinavia but have also lived in the us for many years. I would like to comment the nudity issue alone (not really the original post).

Why would anyone think that a father/daughter relationship would change as the child gets older - do you think that because the child is closer to being a woman that the father will have other than parental feelings for her?

How does being naked elevate the risk of anything?

Where I live nudity is a non-issue in families. Children are nude on the beach - on warm days you will see children undressing down to their undies og nude in the city parks.

EXACTLY!!


----------



## bente (Apr 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pranamama* 
Children get molested in Europe too, please

But not because we are relaxed about nudity.
I would venture go guess that less children are molested in Norway then say the US. There is no shame about a naked body here - I believe that shame plays a role in abuse. The less shame we are made to feel about our bodies - the more likely we are to grow up and become parents with healthy attitudes about our childrens bodies as well as our own.


----------



## H & J's Mom (Jun 1, 2008)

Regarding the original post on showering together at that age, VERY innapropriate IMO. That makes me very uncomfortable as it would if the parent and child were to get naked and go to another room to be alone.

Surely there must be other ways to share one on one/bonding time with their clothes on. Nice walk, game of cards, shopping ....

I don't think the nudity is the problem, I think it is the situation.


----------



## pranamama (Nov 6, 2002)

Choli, since you are misquoting me, I was pointing out that if you have observed a parent's actions from birth to age 9, as well as been their only romantic partner, you will have more information to base situations on and probably not wonder if something is weird or not. These sorts of questions that an observer has, is this normal???? these can be red flags if you don't see the world only through rose colored glasses.


----------



## Swandira (Jun 26, 2005)

I've read that in Japan, group bathing is common, even across genders, and even with fairly old children. It may just be our culture making this seem odd to us. I would say if your DH is uncomfortable bathing with his daughter now, he shouldn't do it, though.

Nealy
mama to T, 5; L, 2; and EDD 12/20/08


----------



## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

If your DH says he's not comfortable, then they should not shower together.

I think at age 10 a girl should have some privacy and your DH deserves his privacy as well.


----------



## Xoe (Oct 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *New_Natural_Mom* 
nak

maybe i am uptight or a prude or somethinng, but ICKY! That wouldnt fly for me.

something funny....DH used to sleep naked before DS was born, but now since we co-sleep he feels that he has to wear undies to bed. DS is 9 weeks old. I find that so funny.

my dh sleeps with undies on also, just in case the 3 year old crawls into our bed at night. i find it funny, *but i really appreciate* that he takes the precaution against my dd seeing him nude. i can't speak for the rest of you, but i know if my dd saw my husband's private parts, she'd want to touch them. heck, she's still really fascinated by my breasts, and i don't hide them from her at all. frankly, her fascination with my breasts can be annoying, and I had to ask her to stop touching them so much.

and for the record-- i can not imagine any good reason for a grown, married man to get into the shower, nude, with a 10 year old girl. is it even legal for an urelated male (or a related male) to show his sex organs, on purpose, to a girl of that age???? how's it different from "flashing" or inappropriate exposure/corruption of a minor? this is an honest question and not a flame. somebody on this site must have an understanding of the laws as it concerns these things.

xoe


----------



## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

But we don't live in these other cultures, we live in THIS culture. And in THIS culture, men showering with their 10 year old daughter's is not considered appropriate, so while there certainly might not be anything else going on, it shouldn't be surprising that it sends up red flags.

Getting "caught in a rainstorm" and then showering together, in THIS culture, sounds like something LOVERS do, not fathers and daughters.

I don't know about your showers, but mine is a pretty tight squeeze with more than one person in it. I don't see that as the same at all as a gyms shower, where you have more personal space.

I would ask other questions, like, was the door locked? Did the SM know that they were going up to do this, or did she come upon it unexpectedly? "She wanted it, I felt uncomfortable doing it" like it or not, is a pretty common defense when abusers get caught. Does the child's mother know they shower together? If he's always been open about showering with his daughter and her mother knows and it's just not an issue in their family, then while I'm personally seriously freaked out by it, I'd be a lot less concerned that something insidious is going on.


----------



## polishprinsezz (Dec 31, 2006)

my uncle bathed with his teenage sons. i was a teen myself at the time and thought nothing of it. now as an adult i know this wasnt normal or healthy behavior. my uncle molested his children and they all now have problems as adults. my oldest cousin has been caught fondling young girls, i dont trust my middle cousin and my youngest cousin is facing a sexual identity crisis. he has never had a girlfriend.he has only one guy "buddy" but still cannot admit his sexual preference as it is ingrained in his mind that it is dirty or nasty to be gay. as adults it is our job to keep our children protected and safe. if this situation doesnt feel right it is the parents duty to go with their gut feeling and protect their child. nudity shouldnt be as big of a deal as it is but the simple fact is there are preditors out there waiting to hurt children. nudity isnt openly accepted in our culture. i would be very concerned about this in almost any situation.


----------



## Xoe (Oct 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
So now a failed marriage is a red flag for pedophiles? Does this refer to women as well or just men?

*yup...a failed marriage actually is a red flag for pedophiles.* you'd be surprised at the number of pedophiles seek out relationships with single women who have young daughters (and sometimes boys. ) it gives them easy, 24 hour access to children that they can "groom" into accepting their sexual advances, without thinking anything is abnormal, or without telling anyone. and getting a young, unrelated girl to accept being alone and naked in a confined space seems like "grooming" to me. next, you night hear "why would i tell anyone he touched me? there's nothing wrong with touching people, is there?" and it can go on from there. I'm happy to hear that so many of you were nude around your parents, and nothing went wrong. but frankly, in the u.s., lets be honest-- we have a serious problem with pedophilia. sure, you might have escaped it in your childhood. but with one in four girls reporting being molested in the u.s., would you really want to roll the dice and gamble with your kid showering with a man who is not her father?

Revised to add-- But now, noting that the girl is the biological daughter, i still say there's a risk. family dynamics often change when a girl no longer has her biological mother in the household-- and not in the girl's favor. biological fathers, brothers, uncles and cousins and grandfathers do rape rape related girls. family members provide easy access for exercising inappropriate sexual desires. perhaps this dad's reason for showering with his daughter was innocent-- but I just don't get why this guy felt the need to shower with his daughter. I...just...can't...figure out why he couldn't wait. Does he need to conserve water or something???


----------



## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MayBaby2007* 
I'd call CPS in a heartbeat. It's not normal. Nobody will ever change my mind or make me feel bad for my convictions. Just. Not. Normal.









ok. well, im glad we don't live near each other. i would fear you calling CPS on me being with my children. i dont want to make you feel bad about your "convictions"...just offering that there are other ways of looking at nudity that are not so prudish and paranoid. I consider my children to be very much aware of their bodies and very much aware that no one else (even a parent) shoudl touch them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MadameXCupcake* 
DH was raped by a woman as a young child.

i am sooo sorry.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bente* 

How does being naked elevate the risk of anything?

Where I live nudity is a non-issue in families. Children are nude on the beach - on warm days you will see children undressing down to their undies og nude in the city parks.

IMHO it doesnt. its the person who has ill intentions that is the problem, not the nudity. my kids and i are nude around each other daily and they are NEVER in any jeopardy of being molested by me. I would venture to say they are less likely to be molested by anyone else b/c we talk about our bodies, what they are for, how it is not appropriate for them to be touched in their genitals or any other area that makes it uncomfortable by another adult (including hugs). They know the names of their body parts....and are pretty comfortable around each other and me. One of the biggest problems with children being molested is also when the children do not know the proper names of their body parts and can only refer to them as "privates" or "wee wee".....it has caused many issues w/ children who have been abused.









And of course, child abuse is absolutely horrible. I just don't equate it with nudity at all.


----------



## Xoe (Oct 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
.....
IMHO it doesnt. its the person who has ill intentions that is the problem, not the nudity. my kids and i are nude around each other daily and they are NEVER in any jeopardy of being molested by me. I would venture to say they are less likely to be molested by anyone else b/c we talk about our bodies, what they are for, how it is not appropriate for them to be touched in their genitals or any other area that makes it uncomfortable by another adult (including hugs). They know the names of their body parts....and are pretty comfortable around each other and me. One of the biggest problems with children being molested is also when the children do not know the proper names of their body parts and can only refer to them as "privates" or "wee wee".....it has caused many issues w/ children who have been abused.









And of course, child abuse is absolutely horrible. I just don't equate it with nudity at all.

well....I'd love to know if the op's step daughter has had all these discussions about nudity, touching, inappropriate touching, and knows all the proper names for her body parts. I'd also like to know if they all walk around nude as a family, and shower together as a family-- or was the shower the only place she'd seen her dad's genitals recently? a family that supports nudity as natural and discusses the body, privacy, and human sexuality openly is different than a family that isn't normally open about nudity-- and therefore showering with dad might be a different type of affair in different types of families. You can't assume that because you have an open lifestyle and showering together isn't a sign of a problem in your family-- that showering together isn't a sign of a problem in the next family (and vice versa.) there needs to be a constellation of things going on to make father/daughter nudity a "norm" inside a family. without those things....father/daughter nudity might simply be the beginning of a period where a father losses his bearings, and begins an inappropriate relationship with his daughter.

I'd like to add that fathers are people with a variety of stresses going on at various times in their lives. a man who might not-- under nomal circumstances-- take advantage of a girl, may change during a time of mental stress. all kinds of people find themselves doing that which they would not do.

xoe


----------



## tiffani (May 17, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb* 
But we don't live in these other cultures, we live in THIS culture. And in THIS culture, men showering with their 10 year old daughter's is not considered appropriate

according to who? judging by reading the responses here, it's considered entirely appropriate in many families, and inappropriate in many others.

I'm shocked and saddened by the families who are insisting that their kids remain clothed at home before the child decides for themselves that they want privacy. We always bathed with our kids when they were babies, and continued to do so until they could bathe on their own, and then even after that they'd sometimes crawl in the tub with dad or myself. yes, they tried to grab certain body parts that floated, but why not just say "that's my penis, and it's not for you to touch" who cares if kids are curious, or ask questions, or try to touch you -- you just explain that parents and kids don't touch each others' genitals, and nobody is allowed to touch anyone's genitals unless they are given permission. why the shame and secrecy?

to the op (if you're still here...) I don't think there is anything wrong with what happened, but if it gives you a weird feeling, then maybe you can talk with your dh about it a bit more. I'm assuming that they jumped into the shower because they were cold and wanted to warm up, they were having fun together and he didn't think anything of it until maybe he got in there and THEN thought that maybe she was getting a bit too old for him to feel comfortable. maybe she's starting to develop breasts or pubic hair or something, and it made him feel like it was time for more modesty, whether she wanted it or not. that's ok too, but not a requirement of decent behavior.

Personally I agree with the pp who asked why a father/daughter relationship would change as the child got older -- we all shower at the pool together (dh, me, our almost 7 yo boy and almost 9 yo girl) and will continue to do so until the kids want their own changing rooms for privacy. If they never care, then why would we? We wouldn't suddenly lust after our own children, regardless of their age, nor would they suddenly lust after us. I understand that there are sexual predators in the world, but that doesn't mean that every dad who is comfortable being naked around his kids is a sexual predator. And how sad is it that there are moms who will NEVER trust their partners, just because of the statistics?? I don't care how stressed out my dh was, he would NEVER be inappropriate with our kids, or any other kids -- that sounds like a sad excuse to me...

We need a little more europe here in north america!!!


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb* 
But we don't live in these other cultures, we live in THIS culture. And in THIS culture, men showering with their 10 year old daughter's is not considered appropriate, so while there certainly might not be anything else going on, it shouldn't be surprising that it sends up red flags.

Getting "caught in a rainstorm" and then showering together, in THIS culture, sounds like something LOVERS do, not fathers and daughters.

I don't know about your showers, but mine is a pretty tight squeeze with more than one person in it. I don't see that as the same at all as a gyms shower, where you have more personal space.

I would ask other questions, like, was the door locked? Did the SM know that they were going up to do this, or did she come upon it unexpectedly? "She wanted it, I felt uncomfortable doing it" like it or not, is a pretty common defense when abusers get caught. Does the child's mother know they shower together? If he's always been open about showering with his daughter and her mother knows and it's just not an issue in their family, then while I'm personally seriously freaked out by it, I'd be a lot less concerned that something insidious is going on.

This is the internet, not the US. Your particular culture does not supersede all other cultures of worldwide internet users.


----------



## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Xoe* 
a family that supports nudity as natural and discusses the body, privacy, and human sexuality openly is different than a family that isn't normally open about nudity-- and therefore showering with dad might be a different type of affair in different types of families. You can't assume that because you have an open lifestyle and showering together isn't a sign of a problem in your family-- that showering together isn't a sign of a problem in the next family (and vice versa.)

i agree with you about that. i just dont think we shoudl ASSume either way...we arent in the home, know the family, etc. etc. i don't assume there is or isn't a problem in this family....I just don't think it necessitates a call to CPS.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffani* 

I'm shocked and saddened by the families who are insisting that their kids remain clothed at home before the child decides for themselves that they want privacy.

why the shame and secrecy?

I don't care how stressed out my dh was, he would NEVER be inappropriate with our kids, or any other kids -- that sounds like a sad excuse to me...

yeh, i have been plenty stressed (while working full time at a very demanding job 100 plus hours per week with 2 kids) and ive never fallen prey to sexual molestation..i don't know why men would be more susceptible to that.


----------



## Xoe (Oct 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
i agree with you about that. i just dont think we shoudl ASSume either way...we arent in the home, know the family, etc. etc. i don't assume there is or isn't a problem in this family....I just don't think it necessitates a call to CPS.

yeah, perhaps we shouldn't ASSume. But the OP had something go off in her head that made her feel this might not be appropriate- so she posted here. The father also admitted he no longer felt that showering with his daughter was appropriate. I wonder why??? Whatever the case, I like to go with the intuition or gut feelings of the person who is involved with a situation IRL. If the op and her husband feel something might not be right-- I'm going to wager my bet with what I know from my life and statistics, and then combine it with what the OP's gut says. You can call my oppinions ASSumptions if you like. But when it comes to the molestation of young girls, I'd rather be called an A$$ and then be found wrong, rather than be called open-minded and be found right. Child molestation is just something I can't abide by. We are simply not careful enough in this country. And once a child is violated, well-- you can't un-ring a bell, and you can't undo child rape either.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PassionateWriter* 
yeh, i have been plenty stressed (while working full time at a very demanding job 100 plus hours per week with 2 kids) and ive never fallen prey to sexual molestation..i don't know why men would be more susceptible to that.









I'm not talking a grown woman falling prey to child molestation. I'm talking children falling prey to abuse by adults when adults are stressed. And without going into the specifics, the type of stress I'm talking about is not the type of stress you get from working hard. It's more the type of stress some people feel from failing, losing out, losing jobs, losing money, feeling inadequate or threatened, feeling berrated and less-than, blows to their ego, blows to one's sense of self or man-hood (woman-hood.) the type of stuff that eventually might be a reason for someone to need mental health treatment or that might cause one to turn to substance abuse. sometimes people marry people they don't know well. sometimes people marry people who change over time-- for one reason or another. I'm married almost 20 years to a man I've known and trusted since I was 14-15 years old. Perhaps I'm not the oldest woman on this board, or the longest married-- but believe me when I say that i've heard newly weds tell me that their spouse is the best man on earth, and they know this to be true through and through....then five years later the story is very different. *More than 50%* of americans wouldn't marry their spouse if they had known at the alter what they now know today-- so please don't tell me the "i know my spouse" defense is supposed to be a good enough protection for our children. Many Americans don't know their spouses well enough to make a marriage last for 5 years. "And I thought I knew him" will be words of cold comfort if anything sad happens to the daughter. But remember-- we are all tossing ideas around here. Hopefully, the OP's daughter will be fine. But because some of us wrote down how we felt about this subject, some other girl-- some 1 in 4 girl, will have a mom or step-mom who will recognize an inappropriate situation, will listen to her gut, and will be spared the devistation of being molested because of what someone here said.

xoe


----------



## tiffani (May 17, 2002)

but you see, the problem we have is not with dads taking showers with their daughters, it's all the f~ed up messaging we have in our society about sexuality, coupled with whatever it is that creates a pedophile, and people not being willing to speak up when they are being violated, or someone they care about is being violated. we are too afraid to step over the boundaries of politeness, and I think that prudishness contributes heavily to that problem.

any kind of shame, including "being careful" is telling a child not to listen to their inner voice -- it's making them think that they should feel shame/privateness about their bodies in situations where they don't need to, which, I think, is just confusing and discredits their own boundaries. why create boundaries when they don't need to be there? to me, that just fuzzes up the essence of boundaries -- kids need to be able to be free and comfortable with their family to know what that feels like, so if someone makes them feel "off" (including someone in their family) they will know right away that there is a problem. If we just insist on a false modesty, what happens when they WANT to get butt nekkid with someone -- how do they trust their own instincts when they've been told all along that their instincts are not to be trusted??? How do they step up and say NO when they feel off, or to tell someone if someone is abusing them, when they've never had the opportunity to feel truly well and free without shame?

sorry I'm not more clear here, I'm tired.... g'nite!


----------



## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Reading these posts, if i were a man in america i'd be castrated ASAP to avoid the pointing finger! Paedophiles are people. Right? I'm not talking morally, i'm talking literally. So they will do what people do.

Yes, most paedophiles are men. NOT most MEN are paedophiles. Many paedophiles seek out work with children. NOT most people who work with children are paedophiles. SOme paedophiles abuse their own kids, NOT all parents abuse their kids. Most paedophiles have failed relationships. PRACTICALLY EVERYONE DOES! These random casual statistical relationships are doing NOTHING to prevent child abuse and are making everyone crazy about it all. 100% of people who die were breathing immediately beforehand - quick, everyone stop breathing! It kills you!

Protecting your child from the depraved parts of society isn't so simple as telling them to cover up and not mention their privates! My DD grabbing at mine or her dad's genitals is the PERFECT opportunity to say "yes, that's mama's vagina/dada's penis, we don't touch one anothers genitals sweetie". She will never remember being taught the lesson (she's only 2) but by the time she's old enough to be in danger (she is currently always either with myself or her father) she will know very well what is ok and what is not. Kids are curious. If you tell them not to touch or show or talk about their own genitals and never let them see your own you are missing a million SAFE opportunities for them to learn. If you think peadophiles don't know about and EXPLOIT this natural curiousity, so often crushed by reluctant parents who don't want to talk about "those things" you really ARE mad!

Studies done where convicted paedophiles were asked how they selected victims show that most will go for children who don't know the proper names for their genitals (a child who can shout in a park or a court "you're not allowed to touch my VAGINA" is a poor target for grooming and a giant liability, plus there can be no little "lessons" about how wonderful genitals can be, because the kid already knows and will think it's weird to be told in that context), children with low self-esteem and a strong sense of shame (because they don't LIKE feeling the shame and the paedophile can relieve them of it by telling them how beautiful/natural/wonderful their body is), children who are curious about genitals and haven't explored their curiousity with their parents (i.e. haven't been allowed to talk about it. A child who has never seen a penis is not going to react like a child who has seen dada's in the shower and knows that if you're not in the shower it is NOT OK to have your penis out!), children who lack confidence when talking to adults ("Seen and not heard" kids are less likely to tell and more likely to really deeply value the attention of the paedophile) and children who don't have many peer-age friends (again because they will value the contact enough to put up with the abuse).

Making NUDITY into the reason children get abused actually HELPS paedophiles. How many rapes are overturned because of how a woman is dressed? That's revolting - NOTHING gives someone the right to rape, NOTHING. There was a case in America several years ago where an 18 year old was not convicted after raping an 8 year old girl (they found his DNA inside her vagina and anus) because she had on RED panties and had "inflamed his passion". They had minnie mouse on them. But he got let off because the general consensus is that how you dress or don't dress can ACTUALLY give PERMISSION for someone to abuse, assault or rape you. Stand up for your little girls. Their bodies are not a liability, the puritanical legal system and general societal norms that support it are.


----------



## tiffani (May 17, 2002)

awesome post, gobecgo!!









I have an acquaintance whose family is VERY modest. A little girl in the family told her mom that her step-grandpa had touched her underwear. the mom flipped out, accused, etc, and something very well may have been untoward... but, this little girl had been seriously warned about nudity and privacy, and touching and all the rest, but not in clear, empowering language that she could be clear about -- so maybe the grandpa did touch her underwear, in a totally innocent way (she was very little, still needing help with bathroom, bathing, etc) and she thought that was a grievous sin needing confessing -- nobody will ever know, because this family does not talk about body parts in clear, actual terms, and they are so paranoid about abuse that they've constructed all these arbitrary rules for their very young children that essentially strip the child of their ability to trust their own gut about when it's ok to be naked, when it's ok for people to touch whatever part of their bodies, etc.

It's so harmful to be so paranoid about every male around you -- it clouds the issue of how to listen to your gut instinct, how to tell the difference between your grandpa brushing the sides of your underwear when they're helping you get dressed, and abuse. Not to mention that when you talk about it with paranoia and shame about nudity (and if you're asking them to cover up before they naturally want privacy, you're shaming them about their bodies, in however small a way) it makes them far more reluctant to speak up when something does happen.

I'm not saying nothing happened with this little girl, but nobody will ever really know unless she (now she's much older) breaks down those family taboos about talking about these things -- and that's so hard for a child to do!!!

Nudity is a natural, beautiful thing -- if YOU don't want to be naked around your kids, that's fine, but in my opinion, kids should be able to run nekkid and free until they are no longer comfortable doing so. In the event that they are still comfortable at the onset of puberty, you can have a gentle talk about it.

There is a public waterpark near us that has a sign reading "no nudies" which makes me so sad. they say it's to deter pedophiles, but I don't think pedophiles are all that deterred by the tiny little bikinis that are out there for young girls, which in my mind are worse than nudity.


----------



## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

Just popping in to mention that this was the OP's first post on MDC, a rather controversial one, which seems to have sparked off quite a heated discussion, though the OP said thanks on the first page and has not been back since, nor has she posted anywhere else on MDC.


----------



## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
100% of people who die were breathing immediately beforehand - quick, everyone stop breathing! It kills you!

Ok, that line made me crack up.









The whole rest of your post was awesome though. Well stated.


----------



## mamamaris (Jul 12, 2006)

GoBecGo


----------



## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
This is the internet, not the US. Your particular culture does not supersede all other cultures of worldwide internet users.

You can get as snarky and condescending as you'd like, but the majority of posters here appear to be from Western countries, where nudity is considered more private than in other parts of the world. So, once again, it shouldn't be some huge shock that some people posting would be uncomfortable with it.


----------



## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb* 
You can get as snarky and condescending as you'd like, but the majority of posters here appear to be from Western countries, where nudity is considered more private than in other parts of the world. So, once again, it shouldn't be some huge shock that some people posting would be uncomfortable with it.

The OP didn't state their location.

Are we to think that American dada's are sex crazed lunatics who, at the slightest glimpse of flesh, will forget that their child is their child, whereas, say Dutch, dada's can remember their kids are there own even when said kids have passed through puberty? If that's what living in a "culture" that thinks nudity should be private does to a person then i'll pass thanks!


----------



## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
The OP didn't state their location.

Are we to think that American dada's are sex crazed lunatics who, at the slightest glimpse of flesh, will forget that their child is their child, whereas, say Dutch, dada's can remember their kids are there own even when said kids have passed through puberty? If that's what living in a "culture" that thinks nudity should be private does to a person then i'll pass thanks!

I wasn't talking about the OP, I'm talking about the commenters and the board in general. Of course I could be wrong, but it generally seems that most (but certainly not all) posters are from the US and Canada, where culture norms surrounding nudity are more "prudish" than others, so, once again, it's just shouldn't be shocking that some would find it odd that a father would shower with his 10 year old daughter. Where I live people are pretty conservative about nudity, it wouldn't be considered normal around here, it's certainly not normal in my particular family unit, so if I caught my dh showering after "getting caught in the rain" with our 10 year old daughter, it would most certainly not be okay.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that men in Western cultures can't "handle" seeing a child naked, but that certain actions in one culture will send up red flags while they won't in others.


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb* 
I wasn't talking about the OP, I'm talking about the commenters and the board in general. Of course I could be wrong, but it generally seems that most (but certainly not all) posters are from the US and Canada, where culture norms surrounding nudity are more "prudish" than others, so, once again, it's just shouldn't be shocking that some would find it odd that a father would shower with his 10 year old daughter. Where I live people are pretty conservative about nudity, it wouldn't be considered normal around here, it's certainly not normal in my particular family unit, so if I caught my dh showering after "getting caught in the rain" with our 10 year old daughter, it would most certainly not be okay.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that men in Western cultures can't "handle" seeing a child naked, but that certain actions in one culture will send up red flags while they won't in others.









And those red flags can be erroneous due to cultural indoctrination.


----------



## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
And those red flags can be erroneous due to cultural indoctrination.

Yep. I never said otherwise.


----------



## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
And those red flags can be erroneous due to cultural indoctrination.

Yep. I never said otherwise.


----------



## bente (Apr 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
Stand up for your little girls. Their bodies are not a liability, the puritanical legal system and general societal norms that support it are.

YES!! Yes, yes, yes.....


----------



## PassionateWriter (Feb 27, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
Reading these posts, if i were a man in america i'd be castrated ASAP to avoid the pointing finger! Paedophiles are people. Right? I'm not talking morally, i'm talking literally. So they will do what people do.

Yes, most paedophiles are men. NOT most MEN are paedophiles. Many paedophiles seek out work with children. NOT most people who work with children are paedophiles. SOme paedophiles abuse their own kids, NOT all parents abuse their kids. Most paedophiles have failed relationships. PRACTICALLY EVERYONE DOES! These random casual statistical relationships are doing NOTHING to prevent child abuse and are making everyone crazy about it all. 100% of people who die were breathing immediately beforehand - quick, everyone stop breathing! It kills you!

Protecting your child from the depraved parts of society isn't so simple as telling them to cover up and not mention their privates! My DD grabbing at mine or her dad's genitals is the PERFECT opportunity to say "yes, that's mama's vagina/dada's penis, we don't touch one anothers genitals sweetie". She will never remember being taught the lesson (she's only 2) but by the time she's old enough to be in danger (she is currently always either with myself or her father) she will know very well what is ok and what is not. Kids are curious. If you tell them not to touch or show or talk about their own genitals and never let them see your own you are missing a million SAFE opportunities for them to learn. If you think peadophiles don't know about and EXPLOIT this natural curiousity, so often crushed by reluctant parents who don't want to talk about "those things" you really ARE mad!

Studies done where convicted paedophiles were asked how they selected victims show that most will go for children who don't know the proper names for their genitals (a child who can shout in a park or a court "you're not allowed to touch my VAGINA" is a poor target for grooming and a giant liability, plus there can be no little "lessons" about how wonderful genitals can be, because the kid already knows and will think it's weird to be told in that context), children with low self-esteem and a strong sense of shame (because they don't LIKE feeling the shame and the paedophile can relieve them of it by telling them how beautiful/natural/wonderful their body is), children who are curious about genitals and haven't explored their curiousity with their parents (i.e. haven't been allowed to talk about it. A child who has never seen a penis is not going to react like a child who has seen dada's in the shower and knows that if you're not in the shower it is NOT OK to have your penis out!), children who lack confidence when talking to adults ("Seen and not heard" kids are less likely to tell and more likely to really deeply value the attention of the paedophile) and children who don't have many peer-age friends (again because they will value the contact enough to put up with the abuse).

Making NUDITY into the reason children get abused actually HELPS paedophiles. How many rapes are overturned because of how a woman is dressed? That's revolting - NOTHING gives someone the right to rape, NOTHING. There was a case in America several years ago where an 18 year old was not convicted after raping an 8 year old girl (they found his DNA inside her vagina and anus) because she had on RED panties and had "inflamed his passion". They had minnie mouse on them. But he got let off because the general consensus is that how you dress or don't dress can ACTUALLY give PERMISSION for someone to abuse, assault or rape you. Stand up for your little girls. Their bodies are not a liability, the puritanical legal system and general societal norms that support it are.

what an awesome post!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PikkuMyy* 
Just popping in to mention that this was the OP's first post on MDC, a rather controversial one, which seems to have sparked off quite a heated discussion, though the OP said thanks on the first page and has not been back since, nor has she posted anywhere else on MDC.

still have sparked a great debate and i dont think it really matters whether it was a troll or not...but i don't think you can question that according to the UA....if you think that, you should contact an admin.

i have always lived in the US...i guess i just rebel against "cultural norms".


----------



## Kmelion (Jun 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chiromamma* 
This brings to mind an issue at our house that I have a hard time figuring out.
Dd is 13, quite developed and quite modest. Fine.
DS1 is 11, small, no signs of puberty and very comfortable being naked. I ask him to respect other people's modesty and at least put on underpants. DH thinks it's fine that DS is comfortable with his body and I should ease up a bit.
I'm not sure. I totally see DH's point.
Feedback?

What about a compromise? While your son is in his own room he can be naked as a jay-bird. Once he leaves his room, he's got to put on at least a pair of shorts.


----------



## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Respecting other people's modesty is NOT making them wear less than they're comfortable with. Wearing things so you don't offend people is shame.


----------



## DocsNemesis (Dec 10, 2005)

This is interesting because I've been encouraging my kids to keep clothes on in the house (well, the older 2-the 2 year old runs around with nothing but a diaper on, lol). We are not shy people, my kids see both of their parents, as well as their siblings nakey daily. However, we live in an apartment and constantly have kids and other adults walking past our windows. I am NOT saying they are pervs or anything of the sort-but I dont like them seeing either of my kids in nothing but undies. I dunno, I think its reasonable to ask an almost 6 year old and an 8 year old to throw something on when they are downstairs. And I open the shades because I need the sunlight to keep me from getting depressed (seriously, I think I have SAD or something, lol).

My girls take a bath together and will continue until one or both decide they dont want to anymore. My dd and ds also used to take baths together; my ds decided a couple of years ago he didnt want to anymore and that was fine.

I DO agree that being very hush hush and shy about bodyparts helps pedophiles. On the other hand though, I dont think its unreasonable to also teach appropriate times to strip naked







My kids dont call their parts pee pees, they know the right names and use them, they already know what sex is, they also know that its not ok to touch other peoples genitals and that goes for their own as well. Someone telling them otherwise is wrong. (Although they do know that if I'm there and they see their doctor, its ok; we always ask first though. Its a matter of respect for their body.)


----------



## MyCalling (Sep 1, 2004)

I don't think this is appropriate and I'm not against nudity. I see a *HUGE* difference in parents seeing 10yo children naked or 10yos seeing their parents naked and both being naked to be within a foot of each other or bumping into each other naked in a shower. How do you all who accept this not see a difference??

Also, if there is no age limit, I wonder how many of you grown women still take occasional showers with your own fathers? Likely none, so I'm pretty certain a cutoff of appropriateness occurs.


----------



## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

I BREASTFED my baby - we did a lot more than "bump" then, i can tell you! She was ACTUALLY sucking on my nipple *shock* *horror*!!! What harm did that cause her, psychologically? None. And what harm will it cause, a decade later, to be possibly bumped on the naked shoulder by a naked elbow...NONE!

I sure hope you don't hug your kids in summer when you both have light/skimpier clothes on. Imagine your skin touched!? Goodness KNOWS how much the therapy would cost...









And no, i haven't showered with my dad in the last 4 years (i'm 28) but i did at 24 when in a communal showering area on the continent where people don't faint at the idea of washing next to one another. We don't live together, so it never comes up that we'd shower together. Shockingly enough the reason we don't have sexual feelings for one another is BECAUSE HE IS MY FATHER, NOT because i was a child. You don't suddenly forget all your incest-aversion-instincts because you grew breasts.


----------



## hanno (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 

And no, i haven't showered with my dad in the last 4 years (i'm 28) but i did at 24 when in a communal showering area on the continent where people don't faint at the idea of washing next to one another. We don't live together, so it never comes up that we'd shower together. Shockingly enough the reason we don't have sexual feelings for one another is BECAUSE HE IS MY FATHER, NOT because i was a child. *You don't suddenly forget all your incest-aversion-instincts because you grew breasts.*

On a somewhat similar note:
When I was growing up I loved to spend time with my mom while she got dressed. She primped and chose clothing, plucked and shaved and expertly applied makeup. Much of the time was in various stages of undress. When I came out to her at 17, she suddenly wouldn't let me watch her dress, she would no longer kiss or hug me. It hurt so badly that she imagined that just because I had sexual feelings for women that she might be included. That's just gross.


----------



## MyCalling (Sep 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
I BREASTFED my baby - we did a lot more than "bump" then, i can tell you! She was ACTUALLY sucking on my nipple *shock* *horror*!!!

You breastfeed your 10yo daughter??? No? Oh, well then that's a bit different.









Quote:

And no, i haven't showered with my dad in the last 4 years (i'm 28) but i did at 24 when in a communal showering area on the continent where people don't faint at the idea of washing next to one another.
Was this in a small shower stall together? Doubtful. Was it all alone together with no valid reason? No?


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MyCalling* 
You breastfeed your 10yo daughter??? No? Oh, well then that's a bit different.








Was this in a small shower stall together? Doubtful. Was it all alone together with no valid reason? No?

Must remember in future that my DH and DD will have to provide me with a valid reason before I will let them be alone together. God forbid a father and daughter should share some private time.


----------



## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Sorry, so if i have a shower over a bath (which is more spacious than a cubicle) then i CAN shower with my kids/parents, but if not then it's utterly perverted and i need to be really careful? It wasn't a single stall, it was 2 shower heads side by side in a communal shower. Some of the 10 or so minutes we were washing we were alone, some there were other men and women there. I wasn't paying that much attention, i was washing mud off my legs and feet, not panicking that i might be alone with the man i have known and trusted for my entire life, who changed my nappies, kissed my grazed knees, put up with my hormonal tantrums and generally is one of the most decent human beings i know.

I guess there's some study i'm not aware of whereby my dad 2 feet away is my dad but my dad 1 foot away is a crazy sexy stranger i MUST have. Bleurgh! He is MY FATHER! Have you NO decency!? Why would i feel sexually about my FATHER!? When my mom was terminally ill i had to do some VERY intimate post op (radical hysterectomy) and personal care for her (more intimate than i have yet to do with my toddler!). Luckily for me the sight of her genitals didn't send me into a sexual frenzy...

You're right, i don't BF a 10 year old. I didn't need to BF when i was 10. Haven't grown out of washing yet though...









hanno - that's just terrible hun


----------



## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MyCalling* 
I don't think this is appropriate and I'm not against nudity. I see a *HUGE* difference in parents seeing 10yo children naked or 10yos seeing their parents naked and both being naked to be within a foot of each other or bumping into each other naked in a shower. How do you all who accept this not see a difference??

Also, if there is no age limit, I wonder how many of you grown women still take occasional showers with your own fathers? Likely none, so I'm pretty certain a cutoff of appropriateness occurs.

Not showering, but hottubbing. It was better than going fully dressed, or not going at all because we didn't have suits with us. I think I was 17, and visiting him for the summer. We'd just got done stacking 2 cords of wood and were wiped out, needing a soak.


----------



## DaksMama (Apr 9, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hanno* 
When I came out to her at 17, she suddenly wouldn't let me watch her dress, she would no longer kiss or hug me. It hurt so badly that she imagined that just because I had sexual feelings for women that she might be included. That's just gross.









I am so sorry you went through this


----------



## number572 (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hanno* 
On a somewhat similar note:
When I was growing up I loved to spend time with my mom while she got dressed. She primped and chose clothing, plucked and shaved and expertly applied makeup. Much of the time was in various stages of undress. When I came out to her at 17, she suddenly wouldn't let me watch her dress, she would no longer kiss or hug me. It hurt so badly that she imagined that just because I had sexual feelings for women that she might be included. That's just gross.

Thats awful. I don't know what else to type, I hope that you're alright now. Sending you love. The stupid JOY smiley seems too ridiculous but if it didn't I'd send you a joy smiley.


----------



## Pinkdiva (Aug 25, 2006)

I don't think it's appropriate under any circumstances, birth daughter or not.


----------



## CompostMom (Jun 9, 2008)

My concern would be if Dd's body was starting to mature and she was uncomfortable. Also if Dh was uncomfortable he should have bowed out somehow. Maybe she is starved for attention (not sexually) and wants to have his attention in any form it is given ie: a shower together with StepMom. Maybe a little jealousy/competition for Dad's time/affection. She may feel threatened.

My Dd would have melted into a puddle and gone down the drain at this age if her Daddy saw her with no clothes on. She is modest. Now on the other hand my 5 yr old streaks through the house still with no shame. Her and my Dh still showered occasionally last yr but no more. It just stopped natuarlly. She can now bathe or shower on her own-with a door open for my peace of mind...just in case she gets soap in her eye/slips etc. We still help her bathe though or at the very least watch her to make sure she doesn't miss any parts etc.


----------

