# Help! Bucket seats have invaded Denmark!



## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

Is that what you call them? Those seats that are car seats, but then pop into their own wheels and it turns into a stroller. I saw three of them in the last week.







Two years ago there were zero.

I don't know how or why they got here, but I think they are awful. A babe can litterally go from car to shopping center to coffee shop to home again, without ever getting out of the thing. How are they going to exercise their bodys? Learn to sit up, crawl, stand.... if they are constantly in these seats?

Any research indicating they are unhealthy? I figure if I lobby (we have a Danish "MDC" group) the press, they can do a piece on how bad they are before it gets to be a problem here. If I wait two more years they might be sold in all the stores by then.


----------



## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

In the meanwhile, if you dislike the seats so much you could always go around poking any little babies that you see sleeping in them. Then their mamas will be forced to take them out when they start crying... voila! problem solved!

Added bonus: you get to give all the moms that do not take their crying babies out for a cuddle the Super AP Stinkeye.


----------



## starlein26 (Apr 28, 2004)

My argument is: If people (mothers) want to ignore their babies...they will. Bucket seat or not. Just take good care of your own kids and let others worry about theirs...or not.









Adaptive babies 'should' cry enough to get their needs met anyways...


----------



## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Buckets have their place.

i appreciated that my baby could warm and comfortable in the car while still meeting all saftey standards. i could put my comfortably dressed baby in the car seat, pile a heap of warm blankets on top of her. all my car was warming up (a little, outside of long road trips the enternal temp of my car in the winter is just above freezing. . . on a good day). then take my my much cozy baby outside, already warm and cozy and properly fastened in and snap her in the car while we didn't loe what precious little heat we had. Same went for summer. no hot buckles or anything.

She always had a clean safe place to park. My children did not want to be held all the time and prefered their space espcially if i was trying to do something else - like eat. I can pay attention to my MIL while she is sitting nect to me. I can also pay attention to my baby while she is sitting next to me.

also, I am strictly opposed to waking a sleeping baby. Its is just rude and inconsiderate to wake a tired person who obviously needs their rest. but it is kinda frowned upon to leave them alone sleeping in the car. and those short people really sleep a lot.

People are perfectly capable of neglecting their babies without the bucket. and people are perfectly capalable of knowing if they are meeting their babies needs. My children all learned to sit up and walk on time. they were strong and healthy. the one who was delayed was the only one we did not use a bucket for. I am not saying it is the reason but obviously using a bucket didn't effect them negatively.


----------



## ksera05 (Apr 14, 2006)

I don't know what Denmark car seats are like in general, but at least in the USA a bucket seat is one of the safest seats you can put your tiny infant in (short of, say, a Radian or another convertible that is honestly small enough for a newborn). So this could even be a step up in safety and not something you want to be lobbying to stop!


----------



## chicagomom (Dec 24, 2002)

I hate baby buckets.

They've caused certain types of plagiocephaly to skyrocket, and I see people doing all sorts of unsafe stuff with these buckets all the time - propping bottles with clips and rolled towels (hello?! Is it really that hard to interact with your baby for the time it takes for her to eat???) and leaving them in the buckets for entire days (except for diaper changes).

It's easy to ignore a baby in a bucket; I think they're a bad idea.


----------



## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat* 
In the meanwhile, if you dislike the seats so much you could always go around poking any little babies that you see sleeping in them. Then their mamas will be forced to take them out when they start crying... voila! problem solved!

Added bonus: you get to give all the moms that do not take their crying babies out for a cuddle the Super AP Stinkeye.











and








:


----------



## ledzepplon (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chicagomom* 
I hate baby buckets.

They've caused certain types of plagiocephaly to skyrocket, and I see people doing all sorts of unsafe stuff with these buckets all the time - propping bottles with clips and rolled towels (hello?! Is it really that hard to interact with your baby for the time it takes for her to eat???) and leaving them in the buckets for entire days (except for diaper changes).

It's easy to ignore a baby in a bucket; I think they're a bad idea.

I disagree. Poor parenting has caused plagiocephaly to skyrocket, and poor parenting is to blame for propping bottles. My kids had a "bucket" carseat and it was never abused.


----------



## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lilyka* 
Buckets have their place.

i appreciated that my baby could warm and comfortable in the car while still meeting all saftey standards. i could put my comfortably dressed baby in the car seat, pile a heap of warm blankets on top of her. all my car was warming up (a little, outside of long road trips the enternal temp of my car in the winter is just above freezing. . . on a good day). then take my my much cozy baby outside, already warm and cozy and properly fastened in and snap her in the car while we didn't loe what precious little heat we had. Same went for summer. no hot buckles or anything.

In a freezing cold climate, a bucket seat is incredibly helpful in using a seat appropriately and safely without exposing a child to blisteringly icy winds. Carseat techs keep reminding us that bulky coats in a carseat are *unsafe*, that pads underneath blankets underneath are *unsafe*

I've heard people say, "Well, you just warm the car up first." First of all, not everyone has a setup where that is possible. Second - that only works for the trip *out*. When you return to your ice-covered car, the entire car has dropped back to the 20-below ambient temperature and the clips on the carseat straps could cause frostbite at a touch.


----------



## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
In a freezing cold climate, a bucket seat is incredibly helpful in using a seat appropriately and safely without exposing a child to blisteringly icy winds. Carseat techs keep reminding us that bulky coats in a carseat are *unsafe*, that pads underneath blankets underneath are *unsafe*

I've heard people say, "Well, you just warm the car up first." First of all, not everyone has a setup where that is possible. Second - that only works for the trip *out*. When you return to your ice-covered car, the entire car has dropped back to the 20-below ambient temperature and the clips on the carseat straps could cause frostbite at a touch.

Once, my friend was carrying her son to the car in a bucket seat, and she slipped on the ice. Totally wiped out, and she was hurt when she fell. The baby was buckled in -- the seat hit the ground and just rolled over and he never even woke up, much less got hurt.


----------



## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

Quote:

A babe can litterally go from car to shopping center to coffee shop to home again, without ever getting out of the thing.
In theory, sure. Unless you are following these people around, there is no way to know that and no reason to assume.


----------



## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

i slipped on ice once while going down stairs. I was right on the edge and she slid safely to the bottom of the hill. good times . . .good times . . .

i don't think so people realize just how cold cold is. we have to scrape ice from the inside of our windows. we don't really have a functional heater in our car. It takes hours of running to get hot air out of it. average winter temp is somewhere right around zero. with a lot of wind. our eyes freeze closed when we go outside. . . thats quite a bit different than taking the time to buckle in your kids when it 40* outside. we litterally run out and jump in and close the doors. And I hate even doing that with babies. there is no way I would completely strip my baby of blankets and coats and everything, buckle them into a freezing (literally) car seat, and then re-cover them all while leaving them exposed by an open car door with wind and ice and snow blowing in. Thank goodness all mine fit in their bucket over their first winter!

i also should add to my list is that despite falling into the size guidelines mine did not fit into her convertible at birth. with the straps as tight as they would go I could still easily remove her without unbuckling. She was about 8-10 ounces over the bottom weight limit. so very small. also she was in such an upright position that her head flopped forward. they almost wouldn't let us take her home in that car seat. especially for smaller babies buckets are best. I fought the separate base for her but in the end she still had to be buckled in every time and i don't think there was ever a day where we had that seat secured in the car properly. I think it is better to get it secured properly and leave it there.

the whole flat head thing, I thought that was caused by "back to sleep". people who prop bottles and leave their child in their carseats all day are the same ones who 10-15 years ago left them all in their cribs, swings, strollers,baby seats, floor all day without attention and propped bottles etc. car seats and the type we have don't change that.


----------



## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

I dunno. I LOVED the bucket I had for dd when she was a baby. That child NEVER slept so whens he did, there was no way I was going to wake her. Not to mention the whole freezing cold car dash issue...... I do not think using one or not has anything to do with AP.


----------



## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllisonR* 
Is that what you call them? Those seats that are car seats, but then pop into their own wheels and it turns into a stroller. I saw three of them in the last week.







Two years ago there were zero.

I don't know how or why they got here, but I think they are awful. A babe can litterally go from car to shopping center to coffee shop to home again, without ever getting out of the thing. How are they going to exercise their bodys? Learn to sit up, crawl, stand.... if they are constantly in these seats?

Any research indicating they are unhealthy? I figure if I lobby (we have a Danish "MDC" group) the press, they can do a piece on how bad they are before it gets to be a problem here. If I wait two more years they might be sold in all the stores by then.

We use one. My baby is an extremely early crawler. I highly doubt the children you see are constantly in them. If so, it is not so much a "bucket" problem, but more an abuse problem, and the parents would abuse the child regardless of the bucket. The things you mentioned would take an hour or two, I'm assuming. That would make the baby free the other 22 hours a day. Research actually shows that newborns are safest in the baby "buckets", as the other seats (even though they say they can be used for a baby as little as 5 pounds) do not position them properly. There is a carseat tech here that can back me up on this


----------



## RainCoastMama (Oct 13, 2004)

Hmm...I think your intentions and noble, but a little misguided...

Like anything else, bucket seats are one of a multitude of things that can be abused or non-conforming to the AP lifestyle. The rationale behind your cause could have expanded to include strollers, cribs, bouncers, and so on. A hands-on or neglectful parent will use or abuse any tool.

You have to weigh out the pros and cons and when coming to safety and the convenience factor of loving, AP parents who posted above, you'll have a losing (or just no) battle.


----------



## rainyday (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllisonR* 
How are they going to exercise their bodys? Learn to sit up, crawl, stand.... if they are constantly in these seats?











Um, you're kidding right? Most babies in North America use that kind of car seat, and yet, amazingly enough, by and large they still learn to sit up, crawl, stand, and even walk! And the average first age for these hasn't actually changed in the past generation, since they've become popular, so I've got to believe that their use doesn't lead to these kinds of problems.

That and everything else the other poster said!


----------



## ggs (Aug 6, 2007)

We used one, and my DD learned to sit up, crawl, and walk just fine. My DS is in one right now-he's sitting up, and scooting as well.

As others have said, any type of baby gear has the potential for abuse, but just because one uses a bucket, or a stroller, or a bouncer (or anything else) doesn't mean that the child is stuck there, 24 hours a day. Aren't you making some huge assumptions about parents who use buckets?

This thread makes me







:.


----------



## sonrisaa29 (Feb 3, 2007)

We used a "bucket" too and never had a problem with our child learning to crawl, walk, etc.

I don't know what the safety laws in Denmark regarding infants riding in cars, but I agree with PP who say how these carseats help keep newborns safe


----------



## boatbaby (Aug 30, 2004)

There are plenty of non-bucket car seats for new babies. We had one, and DS still uses it now at 3.5 years old. We never saw the need or the point of a bucket, seems insanely bulky and cumbersome. We slinged (slung?







) DS from day one and it was a breeze. No stroller, no bucket, no problem. It's not a "better" way, but it certainly works just as easily methinks. I don't think one is easier than another either, it's just a choice.


----------



## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

Why does it bother me so? Because I have never seen a Danish mother use them, and then last week I saw 3! But I have seen the 8 other mothers in my english-speaking mother group, over the last year, and every single one of them, except for me, has one of these things.

6 of them keep their children in it a majority or even ALL of the time. We would meet at a cafe and eat lunch/drink coffee for 2 hours, then go to the playground for another hour, then drive home. And the DC would be in the seat in the car (fine, that's where he/she SHOULD be), but also the whole time in the cafe, the whole time in the playground, then the whole time on the way home. Like 5 hours. My DC would be crawling on the floor, or in my lap tasting the food, or sitting/crawling in the playground or wherever. They wouldn't even take them out to put into a high chair. I even said to the mommas, "Maybe DC would like to come play with Lea?" and I got "No, DC doesn't like sand/dirt/whatever." And this happened every single week. One baby I NEVER saw out of the bucket, not once, in 6 months. Now that makes me sad







:

I suppose I could say, I won't associate with these people. But then I deprive my children of english and expose them only to Danish. That has large drawbacks too, living in a foreign country and cutting yourself and family off from your own culture and language.

As many of you wise women posted, the seat itself is not the problem, neglectful parenting, which can just as easily take place in a crib/stroller... as well. Still I think it is sad, this seat entering into mainstream culture.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I honestly loved the bucket, especially with dd. She did not sleep well, and waking her up once she was asleep was something I'd avoid at all costs (I don't like to wake sleeping babies, anyway - but especially dd). I tried transferring her to a carrier a few times, and she screamed for ages. Moving the bucket was no problem and she didn't wake up...easier for her, and only a little more difficult for me.

My biggest problem with the bucket was that it had a clip for a shopping cart, and it was almost impossible to _un_clip it when we were done shopping.


----------



## attachedmamaof3 (Dec 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NiteNicole* 
In theory, sure. Unless you are following these people around, there is no way to know that and no reason to assume.

Ummmm...why else would you be carrying it around then? If you wanted to get your child out of it, they wouldn't be in it in public in the first place.

Basically, it's buckle them into the bucket, snap it into the car, unsnap it to take them into the mall/whatever, snap it back in when you get back to the car, snap it out to take them into the house. If you see someone with a child in there it's not a far reach to understand the kid pretty much stays in there....or else the parents would be carrying them. I mean isn't that what they're used for?

I hate them with a passion.

I've been at MANY gyms/open play/jr. bounce houses and seen these things lined up against the wall completely ignored...full of babies. It's not a fluke or a one-time thing.(I understand not EVERYONE abuses them like this...at least the people on MDC....but the majority DO.)

Also, is no one else aware of the cultural implications that the OP is mentioning?!?!? If we'd been used to seeing regular strollers, babies being carried and slings all over the place all the time and that was the norm, we'd be pretty pissed about these "transitional" hunks of plastic too!!!!!!


----------



## 93085 (Oct 11, 2007)

I think that, like most baby gear, carseat carriers can be misused. I don't particularly think that they're misused more than any other type of gear.

A couple of positive things about carseat carriers: Like someone else mentioned, they're actually much much safer as carseats for infants than the larger convertible seats. And further, I don't think that this has been mentioned yet, but when you're using a stroller for an infant, the carseat carrier enables you to interact with them much more directly by lifting them up higher toward you and turning them to face you. It actually makes me a little sad that my DD has outgrown the carrier, because now when I'm strolling her I can't see her face and interact with her like I used to. Even with her in the sling or the front-carrier, we had physical closeness, which was nice, but I still couldn't see her face.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *attachedmamaof3* 
If you see someone with a child in there it's not a far reach to understand the kid pretty much stays in there....or else the parents would be carrying them. I mean isn't that what they're used for?

Sure - by some people. Do you think without the bucket, they'd suddenly be devoting all their time and attention to the baby? My _mom_ knew people who ignored their kids and propped bottles and what have you when she was a kid...in the 40s.

Quote:

I hate them with a passion.

I've been at MANY gyms/open play/jr. bounce houses and seen these things lined up against the wall completely ignored...full of babies. It's not a fluke or a one-time thing.(I understand not EVERYONE abuses them like this...at least the people on MDC....but the majority DO.)!
Why hate the seat, just because some people misuse them? I've known plenty of people who used buckets, and they weren't lining their kids up against gym walls or bounce houses. Of course, you probably wouldn't see _those_ buckets, precisely because they're not being misused.

I suspect that c-sections contribute to the use of buckets, too. I know that I could put a bucket in a shopping cart and pick up some groceries _long_ before I was physically up to carrying my baby around the mall in a sling or other carrier.


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

I love the infant carseat. It's very handy. I don't neglect my kids. The two things do not go hand in hand.


----------



## SquishyKitty (Jun 10, 2005)

Well I'm pretty sure DH was grateful for our bucket. DS never went to sleep for him unless he was cocooned in the thing









I think that maybe the OP should look at the safety standards of the bucket style seats before she starts lobbying against them. Yes, they make it easier to carry the baby around, but the parents who would leave the baby in it all day would have found another way to do it without the buckets.


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SquishyKitty* 
Well I'm pretty sure DH was grateful for our bucket. DS never went to sleep for him unless he was cocooned in the thing









I think that maybe the OP should look at the safety standards of the bucket style seats before she starts lobbying against them. Yes, they make it easier to carry the baby around, but the parents who would leave the baby in it all day would have found another way to do it without the buckets.

Exactly, and maybe they would find a much less safe place to leave the baby.


----------



## AstridS (Mar 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SquishyKitty* 
Well I'm pretty sure DH was grateful for our bucket. DS never went to sleep for him unless he was cocooned in the thing









I think that maybe the OP should look at the safety standards of the bucket style seats before she starts lobbying against them. Yes, they make it easier to carry the baby around, but the parents who would leave the baby in it all day would have found another way to do it without the buckets.


But the thing is, that in Denmark bucket-type carseats have been used for years. In the car, where they belong. What's new is snapping them on to a set of wheels and using them as strollers. People here use huge lay down type strollers, like a crib on wheels. This way the baby can lay down and rest. And almost everyone uses slings or at least babybjorn-style carriers a lot. So that is the alternatives to the bucket seats. IMO they are a lot better for the baby and just as safe, outside of the car.


----------



## SquishyKitty (Jun 10, 2005)

I still don't understand what the OP could lobby against. I am in germany and see lots of germans using the buckets, the big strollers, the slings, and the carriers. I don't understand what the issue is, honestly.


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *attachedmamaof3* 
Ummmm...why else would you be carrying it around then? If you wanted to get your child out of it, they wouldn't be in it in public in the first place.

1. To keep the baby warmer while outside

2. To allow the baby to sleep instead of being jostled awake.

This does not mean that once you are INSIDE or the baby WAKES UP that you don't pick a baby, who wants to be picked up, up and take her out of the seat. I often did this.

Many, many pp's have explained this.

UMMM, what don't you understand about that.


----------



## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I suspect that c-sections contribute to the use of buckets, too. I know that I could put a bucket in a shopping cart and pick up some groceries _long_ before I was physically up to carrying my baby around the mall in a sling or other carrier.


Doubt it. I was absolutely not ablet to pick up my baby in her bucket carseat after my c-section, even for the time necessary to stap it into the stroller. Simply too heavy. I could carry her though.


----------



## RainCoastMama (Oct 13, 2004)

When I travelled across Asia and India, there were no bucket seats.

Babies were HELD in LAPS in cars, and balanced on laps on scooters.

Yeah, way more interactive








:

I condone the lesser of the evils..you know, safety over death?

I still fail to see the issue here. Neglectful parenting will not start or end with bucket seats. We had one. We also used a sling. We also used a stroller. We walked baby around in-arms. We coslept instead of cribs.

So......hmm...


----------



## Elvirnon (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SquishyKitty* 
I still don't understand what the OP could lobby against.

There is nothing on this planet that someone around here couldn't find some reason to rail against in the name of AP.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
Doubt it. I was absolutely not ablet to pick up my baby in her bucket carseat after my c-section, even for the time necessary to stap it into the stroller. Simply too heavy. I could carry her though.

That's interesting...just more proof (like I needed it) that sections are all different. I found a brief spurt of exertion to be much, much easier than extended carrying.

I've never had one of the bucket/stroller combos, though.


----------



## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

The title of this thread makes me mentally picture an unrelenting army of carseats marching into Copenhagen.


----------



## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)




----------



## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
Doubt it. I was absolutely not ablet to pick up my baby in her bucket carseat after my c-section, even for the time necessary to stap it into the stroller. Simply too heavy. I could carry her though.

Yeah, the nurses told me that I was NOT supposed to pick up baby in carseat for 6 weeks. Baby wieghed nearly 9 lbs, tohugh, so that't why they told me that.

If I had someone else goign into a sotre with me, they'd carry the carseat for me, and I'd do whatever I was there to do. Otherwise, I used a stroller (I didn't have a seat that woudl clip on, iunfortunately) or carried baby in arms.

I loved the infant carseat. After 6 weeks, i used it in church, or anywhre I went where Rachel might need to sleep. She didn't spend all that much time in it, though, she liked to be otu exploring. She liekd it to sleep in when we were out.

They are also great for feeding baby in, (soldid food, not taking nursing or bottles here).

I would've gotten more use of it if I hadn't had a c-section though.

I did see them lined up at toddler gym stuff, but no babies in there unless baby was sleeping, or mom was right beside him just getting older toddler readsy to go play.


----------



## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *attachedmamaof3* 
Basically, it's buckle them into the bucket, snap it into the car, unsnap it to take them into the mall/whatever, snap it back in when you get back to the car, snap it out to take them into the house. If you see someone with a child in there it's not a far reach to understand the kid pretty much stays in there....or else the parents would be carrying them. I mean isn't that what they're used for?

That, of course, defeats the "keep them warm" purpose.

If you leave the bucket in the car, then you have to take your _unbundled_ baby into the shop with you, and the bucket is busy getting icy cold in your icy cold car, and you have to put baby back into the freezing seat in the freezing car and tuck cold air around them.

Entirely and completely defeats one of the major arguments *for* the seats.

As for the cultural argument, in many European countries (I can't speak to Denmark specifically) it was traditional for a very long time to push your child to the high street in a big pram - and then leave the child unattended in the pram outside the store while you did the shopping. Not all traditions are things that shouldn't be improved on....


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
That, of course, defeats the "keep them warm" purpose.

If you leave the bucket in the car, then you have to take your _unbundled_ baby into the shop with you, and the bucket is busy getting icy cold in your icy cold car, and you have to put baby back into the freezing seat in the freezing car and tuck cold air around them.

Entirely and completely defeats one of the major arguments *for* the seats.

As for the cultural argument, in many European countries (I can't speak to Denmark specifically) it was traditional for a very long time to push your child to the high street in a big pram - and then leave the child unattended in the pram outside the store while you did the shopping. Not all traditions are things that shouldn't be improved on....

I think a lot of people have travel systems. Baby is bundled up in bucket, snap it into stroller, go into store. If baby wakes up needs to be fed, wants to be held... take baby out in warm store, bucket stays warm. Bundle them back up while inside, go outside.

Baby warm. Baby happy.


----------



## vloky (Apr 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I suspect that c-sections contribute to the use of buckets, too. I know that I could put a bucket in a shopping cart and pick up some groceries _long_ before I was physically up to carrying my baby around the mall in a sling or other carrier.

Not to mention some babies HATE being worn. My son couldn't stand it, I tried the moby, I tried the peanut shell, different positions, he'd SCREAM! He now tolerates the playtex hip sling for short spurts of time. He's a 30 lb one year old and thank heavens he walks..







:


----------



## sonrisaa29 (Feb 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vloky* 
Not to mention some babies HATE being worn. My son couldn't stand it, I tried the moby, I tried the peanut shell, different positions, he'd SCREAM! He now tolerates the playtex hip sling for short spurts of time. He's a 30 lb one year old and thank heavens he walks..







:

Yes my son did too, and I wouldn't be very AP if I forced it on him would I?







:


----------



## vloky (Apr 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sonrisaa29* 
Yes my son did too, and I wouldn't be very AP if I forced it on him would I?







:

not at all.







I think the lines between ap and crunch get blurred a bit to much on this site.


----------



## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
As for the cultural argument, in many European countries (I can't speak to Denmark specifically) it was traditional for a very long time to push your child to the high street in a big pram - and then leave the child unattended in the pram outside the store while you did the shopping. Not all traditions are things that shouldn't be improved on....

Good point. I actually don't have a particular problem with that tradition, but couldn't one make the argument that that practice is at least as neglectful as putting a babe-in-bucket along the wall at an older child's Mommy and Me class?

Oh ... but the babies in Europe are in _prams_, not _buckets_ ... that makes it better then.







:


----------



## daniedb (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat* 
In the meanwhile, if you dislike the seats so much you could always go around poking any little babies that you see sleeping in them. Then their mamas will be forced to take them out when they start crying... voila! problem solved!

Added bonus: you get to give all the moms that do not take their crying babies out for a cuddle the Super AP Stinkeye.

I love _you_, and...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Elvirnon* 
There is nothing on this planet that someone around here couldn't find some reason to rail against in the name of AP.

I love _you_.


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
Good point. I actually don't have a particular problem with that tradition, but couldn't one make the argument that that practice is at least as neglectful as putting a babe-in-bucket along the wall at an older child's Mommy and Me class?

Oh ... but the babies in Europe are in _prams_, not _buckets_ ... that makes it better then.







:

Hmmm outside the store with strangers milling around or in the same room w/in sight/earshot of mom. Nope, not the same.


----------



## vloky (Apr 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood* 
Hmmm outside the store with strangers milling around or in the same room w/in sight/earshot of mom. Nope, not the same.

I don't know if that was worded wrong or what but it confused me..


----------



## jeca (Sep 21, 2002)

I couldn't carry my babies around in those carseat simply because they are HEAVY.


----------



## AstridS (Mar 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RainCoastMama* 
When I travelled across Asia and India, there were no bucket seats.

Babies were HELD in LAPS in cars, and balanced on laps on scooters.

Yeah, way more interactive







:

I condone the lesser of the evils..you know, safety over death?

I still fail to see the issue here. Neglectful parenting will not start or end with bucket seats. We had one. We also used a sling. We also used a stroller. We walked baby around in-arms. We coslept instead of cribs.

So......hmm...

But the issue here is NOT buckets as carseats. Buckets are the lesser evil, when they are used in the car. I choose a crying baby over a dead baby.
It's buckets used outside of the car, that's the issue. And I see a HUGE difference between prams and carseats. It's not healthy for the spine of a newborn to be fixated in a semireclined position on a hard surface like a carseat all the time. That can lead to tortocollis and other medical conditions.


----------



## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AstridS* 
But the issue here is NOT buckets as carseats. Buckets are the lesser evil, when they are used in the car. I choose a crying baby over a dead baby.
It's buckets used outside of the car, that's the issue. And I see a HUGE difference between prams and carseats. It's not healthy for the spine of a newborn to be fixated in a semireclined position on a hard surface like a carseat all the time. That can lead to tortocollis and other medical conditions.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Someone here gets what I am talking about.

I have a bucket carseat for my babe. I use it in the car. Outside the car I use my arms, an Ergo, a stroller and a pram. All of these are much healthier for the babys posture.


----------



## chicagomom (Dec 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ledzepplon* 
I disagree. Poor parenting has caused plagiocephaly to skyrocket, and poor parenting is to blame for propping bottles.

The "guns don't kill people" argument! I don't believe that the number of people with poor parenting skills has skyrocketed.

"Travel systems" are very popular, and they are specifically designed for babies to spend huge amounts of time in them.

Except there are no warning labels on them telling parents they should not use them for extended periods of time, some babies like to sleep in them and as many here have noted, they are very convenient in cold weather.

Here's a study of plagiocephaly patients that indicated 15% of them spent more than 4 hours each day in a bucket and 5.7% slept in carseats regularly. The researchers note:

Quote:

In recent years, we have seen a number of infants whose deformities seem to be associated with the extended use of these devices. The cranial distortion that occurs is generally more severe than the more common forms of plagiocephaly from sleeping supine on a mattress. The resulting head shape is often more complex than the typical parallelogram deformity commonly described.4,12 The distortion frequently results in multiple planes of asymmetry, increased posterior head height, and in some instances even "cornering" or "squaring" of the head.
Boston Children's Hospital: "Infants who sleep on their backs or in car seats without alternating positions for extended periods of time are also at a higher risk for deformational plagiocephaly."

And no, this isn't another "ap moms can always find something bad about anything" rant. You may not leave your baby in a bucket for hours each day, but *many* people do. And that does affect attachment. A 2006 Mothering article "Car Seats are for Cars" notes:

Quote:

In a Columbia University study, researchers gave either a baby seat or a soft, wearable infant carrier to mothers of low socioeconomic status who had recently given birth. After 13 months, the researchers found that the babies who had been transported in wearable carriers were significantly more likely to demonstrate a strong attachment to their mothers.


----------



## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Sure there are people who abuse them! That has been said over and over. But that is not the fault of the bucket. That is the parent. I did use my bucket to carry dd in and out of the house to the car. It was hard as hell to carry that thing but it was far better than plopping a warm baby in a -20 degree car. It is very very cold here. Even now that dd is 4+ yo, I have almost frostbitten my hands messing around with her straps with no mittens on. I wish they made a bucket that just snapped for her now







Does this make me some sort of baby abuser?!?!? Of course not! You cannot "outlaw" bad parenting. No one on here is advocating leaving a baby in a bucket for anywhere near the amount of time it takes to be bad for the baby's back. There is definite convenience to these devices and they can be completely compatible with AP. Also, my bucket was a life saver during dd's first nasty cold. The slightly upright position helped drain the snot and made her far more comfy for a few hours in the night. *gasp* Of course, I still held her most of the time and did what I could to make her comfy. But if she was asleep and comfortable, how AP is it to deny that just to check it off my AP list? Not to mention how great and AP it is to have a totally sleep-deprived, cranky, mom who spent the whole night holding baby upright rather than getting ANY sleep because they HAD to be AP enough.

I do not pretend to know the thoughts, motives, backstory, or anything else about other parents out in public. Does it really make people feel better to tsk tsk everyone else?


----------



## lisalou (May 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllisonR* 
Thank you, thank you, thank you. Someone here gets what I am talking about.

I have a bucket carseat for my babe. I use it in the car. Outside the car I use my arms, an Ergo, a stroller and a pram. All of these are much healthier for the babys posture.

When your child is in a stroller or pram how is their posture any different than in the "bucket"?

Bad parenting is one thing. But assuming bad parenting is another thing altogether. To paraphrase Calvin and Hobbes why call huge groups of people bad parents when there are so many good reasons to label individuals bad parents?


----------



## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllisonR* 
Thank you, thank you, thank you. Someone here gets what I am talking about.

*I have a bucket carseat for my babe. I use it in the car. Outside the car I use my arms, an Ergo, a stroller and a pram. All of these are much healthier for the babys posture.*

(bolding mine)

I use public transportation much of the time, and when we are in the car it is almost always VERY short trips, like less than 5 miles round trip.

My baby probably wont be in the car very much, hence spending much less time in "the bucket" than I am guessing your child does.

Does that make me more attached than you because my baby will be in "the bucket" way less than yours??

Also, if you feel that buckets are so bad for posture why use it at all?
I am sure it is bad for posture when used in the car as well as being used out of the car.
So if your reason for passing judgment is that buckets are bad for posture then why is it okay for YOU to use one IN the car?







:

I do agree that there need to be labels and information with these seats that explain that it isn't good to leave baby in the bucket too much. It is the current trend in the US to use the bucket/travel system excessively, and I think that a lot of parents don't see it as a bad thing. I think if people were more aware that it is important to get baby out of the bucket we wouldn't see so many parents abusing them.

Just my 2 cents


----------



## vloky (Apr 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Yooper* 
Sure there are people who abuse them! That has been said over and over. But that is not the fault of the bucket. That is the parent. I did use my bucket to carry dd in and out of the house to the car. It was hard as hell to carry that thing but it was far better than plopping a warm baby in a -20 degree car. It is very very cold here. Even now that dd is 4+ yo, I have almost frostbitten my hands messing around with her straps with no mittens on. I wish they made a bucket that just snapped for her now







Does this make me some sort of baby abuser?!?!? Of course not! You cannot "outlaw" bad parenting. No one on here is advocating leaving a baby in a bucket for anywhere near the amount of time it takes to be bad for the baby's back. There is definite convenience to these devices and they can be completely compatible with AP. Also, my bucket was a life saver during dd's first nasty cold. The slightly upright position helped drain the snot and made her far more comfy for a few hours in the night. *gasp* Of course, I still held her most of the time and did what I could to make her comfy. But if she was asleep and comfortable, how AP is it to deny that just to check it off my AP list? Not to mention how great and AP it is to have a totally sleep-deprived, cranky, mom who spent the whole night holding baby upright rather than getting ANY sleep because they HAD to be AP enough.

I do not pretend to know the thoughts, motives, backstory, or anything else about other parents out in public. Does it really make people feel better to tsk tsk everyone else?

That was actually very ap, because sleeping upright in the car seat was what was most comfortable for her, so you were listening to her needs. I know some babies with colic are a lot happier sleeping in their carseats or swings... I think anti bucket seats is more of a supercrunch thing than ap personally. Everything has it's purpose, and everything can be misused.


----------



## elmh23 (Jul 1, 2004)

you do realize not every parent can sling right? my back is seriously messed up (chiro helps for a day and then it's out of whack again.) so my son would ride in the roundabout in the car and then i'd transfer him to a bucket seat and either attach it to the carseat (which is a sit and stand and requires a bucket seat for a non-sitting baby) or the grocery cart. the only reason he wasn't in it in the car is because it was given to me by my sil who got it from a friend (so i didn't know the history of the seat to comfortably use it in the car.)


----------



## PreggieUBA2C (Mar 20, 2007)

Hmmm... I wonder now how many of those slingin' mamas I used to envy thought of me as not attached to my c/s babes while I was struggling just to walk in the store so I could make sure I had enough food at home to eat so I could keep breast-feeding?







:

I feel sad about the judgemental nature of some mamas assumptions about just _seeing_ a child in a bucket outside of the car. Granted, I did rarely go out at that point, so I guess the risk of being judged was somewhat lessened by the fact that I had no support so I couldn't always do the things we needed... so in that way, I guess I stayed mostly out of the AP eye









At home, all of our babes have been in arms- even right after surgeries, even if that meant that I had to be sitting or lying down for hours at a time. The very seldom that I did go out with dh, if he was unable to hold one of the babes, or after we arrived somewhere our ds was actually sleeping (!), we let him sleep in the bucket for the whole maybe hour that we would have been out.

I dealt with a lot of feelings of guilt and sadness following my sections and when I read what others think about a practice that was for survival as being indicative of neglect or lack of attachment (even if they grant that it isn't in all cases- they still considered it possible or even likley about me when they saw me at the grocery store...), I feel thrust back to that time, feeling sad again, wishing I hadn't succombed to scare tactics and had coerced c/s's, that I hadn't been so ignorant and I guess I should expect to be continually reminded of that for the rest of my life as others judge me for doing my best because it looks like someone else's (assumedly) worst.

HOWEVER: I do think that the cultural acceptance of leaving a child in a bucket can lead to parents who would otherwise be willing and able to carry their infants to not even consider slinging or carrying; it may lead to ignorance of the real implications of it's use; it may be the reason for some parents to never really have to change their lifestyle enough to recognise the need their baby has for physical closeness since they have nothing to compare and contrast. Some babies don't cry. Ours would never have stood for being 'left' in the seat when they were awake, but they weren't accustomed to being in it except for short periods of time and always in the car or while sleeping after the ride.

We have friends whose baby hardly left the seat for the first year of his life; he was obviously delayed in motor development early on and that persisted until he began to complain enough that they started taking him out (at around 11 months!). He walked late, he didn't have spatial awareness at his sides (never reached outward from his arms- just toward front- until much later, that is), and had all the typical signs of bucket-seat over-use. The child slept in it every night and spent all day in it too. I don't think their use of it was malicious or purposefully neglectful; they were ignorant and didn't have cultural or other impetus to change the way they went about their days since they could just stick him in and do what they normally do. It is sad, but I really don't think that this case can be paralled with mine. The two are so different, and yet even given their obvious neglect (though I believe unintentional), I don't judge their motivations toward their child; I know they love him. I know they try to maintain connection which is why the mama breastfed until she became pg with dc2, so dc1 was already past two. I think they lack education, and that some accepted mainstream practices allow them to continue in their ignorance.

I just don't think it's beneficial or kind to assume anything about someone's parenting or attachment from a chance encounter at the mall.


----------



## emmasmommy (Feb 26, 2004)

I can't speak for Denmark, but I lived in Sweden when dd1 was a newborn 5 years ago. At that time, I remember reading an article warning parents not to leave babies in the bucket for more than 45 minutes at time as it was bad for their posture. I saw them used in Sweden quite regularly and as I said that was 5 years ago, so not really new. We didn't have a car so we used the pram way more (we could fit a week's worth of groceries in the basket!), but other people in my moms group used them and left baby in them quite regularly.


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Infant car seats are child restraints to be used in a motor vehicle. The whole travel system thing drives me crazy. 99% of infant car seats are not to be used on top of shopping carts either. Seeing every parent with them perched percariously atop a shopping cart scares the crap out of me. I am in complete agreement that there needs to be more education out there on the dangers of leaving babies in them for extended periods of time. More focus needs to be on the fact that they are child restraints to be used to secure your child in a motor vehicle and not on the convenience aspect.


----------



## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren* 
Seeing every parent with them perched percariously atop a shopping cart scares the crap out of me.

Just so you know... bucket car seats (at least mine) LOCK onto the shopping cart. In fact, mine locks on so well it takes me a few minutes to get the darn thing back off. I'm positive that even an earthquake couldn't make my car seat fall off of the cart.

So, no need to worry on my child's behalf on that front, okay?


----------



## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat* 
Just so you know... bucket car seats (at least mine) LOCK onto the shopping cart. In fact, mine locks on so well it takes me a few minutes to get the darn thing back off. I'm positive that even an earthquake couldn't make my car seat fall off of the cart.

So, no need to worry on my child's behalf on that front, okay?

agreed, when ds used one, it locked into the cart. I feel more scared for the babies in the bucket INside the cart, because the mom wanted to use the seat area for her purse







:


----------



## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

If you don't like them then dont use them. I also agree some abuse them but honestly you can only decided YOU wont those that abuse the use of a bucket seat with then just abuse the use of a stroller or any other thing they can. I used and liked the bucket seat when I felt appropiate. We used it as an actual carseat it fit her tiny 5lb body better than a larger convertable. Overall I didn't carry her around in it but sometimes if we say went into a restraunt or Church or someplace like that and shes was asleep then I allowed her to stay asleep and left her in the seat. Once shes woke I picked her up.I didn't use mine on a shopping cart because it never locked in propertly but if it did at times I likely would.


----------



## loitering (Mar 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeca* 
I couldn't carry my babies around in those carseat simply because they are HEAVY.

Same here! I don't understand how some women and men can carry them in the crook of their arm - I've tried, my family have tried, and none of us could do it for more than a minute. I'm guessing some people just had lighter car seats/babies than mine lol

Whenever I see a post-partum looking woman carrying her baby in the carseat I think "you poor woman! That's too heavy!!!"

I did love my travel system though, and felt supremely guilty every time I used it for six months (before I got over my they're-better-mommies-than-me issues). It had so, so many uses for me.


----------



## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by NiteNicole View Post
In theory, sure. Unless you are following these people around, there is no way to know that and no reason to assume.
Ummmm...why else would you be carrying it around then? If you wanted to get your child out of it, they wouldn't be in it in public in the first place.
Not necessarly like I said above you could have seen me with our baby seat say in a restraunt because our baby was fast asleep and we know from experience trying to transfer her to arms or sling means huge tears so we followed her cues and allowed her to peacefully sleep.. You would have also seen us pick her up and hold her basically abandoning the seat as soon as she woke or indicated she needed me. Overall the bucket stayed in the car but sometimes we did for various reasons choose to take it out you really don't know the big picture everytime.
No what bugs me is parents who stick there kid in the bucket seeats ontop of tables like in restraunts and the totally ingnore them I just have pictures of those things falling to the floor.







:


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vloky* 
Not to mention some babies HATE being worn. My son couldn't stand it, I tried the moby, I tried the peanut shell, different positions, he'd SCREAM! He now tolerates the playtex hip sling for short spurts of time. He's a 30 lb one year old and thank heavens he walks..







:

Yeah - ds2 didn't like it much. When he got old/big enough for the Ergo in back carry, he was great, but he didn't like anything else. My other two loved it.


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *octobermom* 
If you don't like them then dont use them.

Exactly. No need to feel superior about it or make something you personally don't like unlawful for others to use.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren* 
Infant car seats are child restraints to be used in a motor vehicle. The whole travel system thing drives me crazy. 99% of infant car seats are not to be used on top of shopping carts either. Seeing every parent with them perched percariously atop a shopping cart scares the crap out of me. I am in complete agreement that there needs to be more education out there on the dangers of leaving babies in them for extended periods of time. More focus needs to be on the fact that they are child restraints to be used to secure your child in a motor vehicle and not on the convenience aspect.

Is it better for a child's spine to be left in a bucket for a 2 hour drive, or a 5 minute drive to the grocery store, followed by a 30 minute shopping trip and a 5 minute drive home? A child can be in a bucket for an extended period of time, even when it's used exactly as intended.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat* 
Just so you know... bucket car seats (at least mine) LOCK onto the shopping cart. In fact, mine locks on so well it takes me a few minutes to get the darn thing back off. I'm positive that even an earthquake couldn't make my car seat fall off of the cart.

And,







:
I had a hell of a time getting the bucket back _off_ the cart when I was done shopping.


----------



## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren* 
I am in complete agreement that there needs to be more education out there on the dangers of leaving babies in them for extended periods of time.

I guess no cross country road trips with your baby then....


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angelcat* 
Yeah, the nurses told me that I was NOT supposed to pick up baby in carseat for 6 weeks. Baby wieghed nearly 9 lbs, tohugh, so that't why they told me that.

If I had someone else goign into a sotre with me, they'd carry the carseat for me, and I'd do whatever I was there to do. Otherwise, I used a stroller (I didn't have a seat that woudl clip on, iunfortunately) or carried baby in arms.

Several things here.

I no longer listen to anything the nurses tell me about post-op recovery. I know more about it than most of them do at this point. In any case, I was told not to lift _anything_ that weighed more than my baby (a little tricky when you have other kids at home). But, my mom was told not to lift anything that weighed more than 10 pounds, which would have precluded even picking up my newborns! I go with what works for me, not with what a nurse thinks should work, based on what she's been taught. I've found very little overlap between what actually works, and what I'm told will work.

Nobody ever had to carry the carseat for me - it went on the grocery cart. I found a stroller almost impossible to use after a section, because of the posture needed to push it.

I guess this is just another area where my post-section experience is atypical. I'm getting used to that.


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Is it better for a child's spine to be left in a bucket for a 2 hour drive, or a 5 minute drive to the grocery store, followed by a 30 minute shopping trip and a 5 minute drive home? A child can be in a bucket for an extended period of time, even when it's used exactly as intended.

You don't understand. In the USA, cars have magical powers that negate any ill effects of buckets or CIO.







: Don't try to come between an American and their car.


----------



## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AstridS* 
But the thing is, that in Denmark bucket-type carseats have been used for years. In the car, where they belong. What's new is snapping them on to a set of wheels and using them as strollers. People here use huge lay down type strollers, like a crib on wheels. This way the baby can lay down and rest. And almost everyone uses slings or at least babybjorn-style carriers a lot. So that is the alternatives to the bucket seats. IMO they are a lot better for the baby and just as safe, outside of the car.

We have a bucket, and a stroller frame for it, and I have to say, I love it.

There is no way that I could fit "a crib on wheels" into the back of my car, get it down the narrow, crumbly sidewalks in our neighborhood, or take it on the train or bus. I can't imagine where we'd have room for such a thing in our house, or how I would deal with it if I lived in a walk-up apartment. The stroller frame was inexpensive, and is sturdy, practical, and compact. I do also use a bjorn, and I often carry my son in my arms, but I can't get through the grocery store this way (and he's not yet big enough to be able to sit comfortably upright in the cart through a whole shopping trip). I can't take the train in to school this way, because I just can't carry everything that the baby and I need, AND carry the baby.

I also see the point that people are making about the cold.

I think you should get over it. People make choices about car seats and strollers for a wide variety of reasons, and bucket seats don't make people bad parents.


----------



## nausicaamom (Feb 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat* 
Just so you know... bucket car seats (at least mine) LOCK onto the shopping cart. In fact, mine locks on so well it takes me a few minutes to get the darn thing back off. I'm positive that even an earthquake couldn't make my car seat fall off of the cart.

So, no need to worry on my child's behalf on that front, okay?

It's not the fact that they can clip-on to a shopping cart, but the fact that sitting up there changes the center of gravity of the shopping cart and can cause a tipping hazzard.


----------



## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nausicaamom* 
It's not the fact that they can clip-on to a shopping cart, but the fact that sitting up there changes the center of gravity of the shopping cart and can cause a tipping hazzard.

a child (usually alot heavier thn a carseat and baby) sitting there would cause the same problem then, so we should just outlaw all shopping carts.


----------



## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wonderwahine* 
a child (usually alot heavier thn a carseat and baby) sitting there would cause the same problem then, so we should just outlaw all shopping carts.

That's discrimination against shopping carts. Outlaw the *real* problem - children







:


----------



## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
That's discrimination against shopping carts. Outlaw the *real* problem - children







:









I think I love you


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nausicaamom* 
It's not the fact that they can clip-on to a shopping cart, but the fact that sitting up there changes the center of gravity of the shopping cart and can cause a tipping hazzard.

Reaching.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wonderwahine* 
a child (usually alot heavier thn a carseat and baby) sitting there would cause the same problem then, so we should just outlaw all shopping carts.

Exactly.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
That's discrimination against shopping carts. Outlaw the *real* problem - children







:


----------



## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
You don't understand. In the USA, cars have magical powers that negate any ill effects of buckets or CIO.







: Don't try to come between an American and their car.









:

i love you


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat* 
Just so you know... bucket car seats (at least mine) LOCK onto the shopping cart. In fact, mine locks on so well it takes me a few minutes to get the darn thing back off. I'm positive that even an earthquake couldn't make my car seat fall off of the cart.

So, no need to worry on my child's behalf on that front, okay?


What carrier do you use? There is only one carrier design presently on the market, to my knowledge, that states specifically it is ok to attach to a shopping cart and says so in the manual. The rest either state specifically NOT to, attach at your own risk, or don't address it at all.
Whether you do or not, whether you are suppose to or not, doesn't negate the fact that a shopping cart with babe and carrier, will be top and front heavy. The risk of the thing tipping over increases.
My responsibility as a CPS educator extends to every child.


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wonderwahine* 
I guess no cross country road trips with your baby then....

Is there a question in here somewhere?


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wonderwahine* 
a child (usually alot heavier thn a carseat and baby) sitting there would cause the same problem then, so we should just outlaw all shopping carts.

Hundreds of kids 5 years old and under are seriously injured or killed in shopping cart incidents every year. Outlawing shopping carts isn't the answer. Changing their design is (this of coarse is taking into account that the kids are being supervised by a parent or caregiver to begin with).


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Is it better for a child's spine to be left in a bucket for a 2 hour drive, or a 5 minute drive to the grocery store, followed by a 30 minute shopping trip and a 5 minute drive home? A child can be in a bucket for an extended period of time, even when it's used exactly as intended.

A baby who is fed, diapered, burped, strolled through a mall, driven around, taken grocery shopping, and brought in the house and left to sleep in said car seat is the type of scenario I consider an extended period of time. In addition, the majority of babies outgrow the infant car seat well within 1 year and if the car seat is being used as intended the majority of time, which is to restrain the child in an automobile, the liklihood of physical problems as a result of using it just as it was intended, decreases.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren* 
A baby who is fed, diapered, burped, strolled through a mall, driven around, taken grocery shopping, and brought in the house and left to sleep in said car seat is the type of scenario I consider an extended period of time. In addition, the majority of babies outgrow the infant car seat well within 1 year and if the car seat is being used as intended the majority of time, which is to restrain the child in an automobile, the liklihood of physical problems as a result of using it just as it was intended, decreases.

Okay - fair enough. But, the longest I have my kids in the car at all is about half an hour, when I go to see my prenatal care provider. Once I have this baby (40 weeks today - should be fairly soon), they won't ever be in the car that long, except maybe on a family vacation - once a year. OTOH, I know plenty of people who take their kids out on regular errands and outings that are well over an hour in the car each way - sometimes more. Extended periods of time can also be _in_ the car. I _might_ let a baby sleep in a bucket at home on occasion, especially if they'd been unusually tired and/or cranky. But, in general, once they're home, they're out of the bucket, anyway.

This is just another "blame the tool, not the user" situation...and I've seen plenty of parents who ignore their kids quite thoroughly without even owning a bucket.

As for shopping carts, my carts will be less top-heavy when baby-under-construction is in her/his bucket. DD and/or ds2 will have to sit down in the bottom of the cart, which will more than balance out a 10lb. newborn and a bucket up top. Currently, I have over 70lbs. of child in the top of the cart, plus most of my groceries.


----------



## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

some preemie babies sleep in their buckets because of their reflux and other special needs.


----------



## hipmummy (May 25, 2007)

Infant carriers bite the big one. We had to use one because ds was in teh NICU. Did not plan on being at the hospital so we did not have one. We planned on using the decathalon right away. Anyway next babe is not going in one thank you.


----------



## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren* 
What carrier do you use? There is only one carrier design presently on the market, to my knowledge, that states specifically it is ok to attach to a shopping cart and says so in the manual. The rest either state specifically NOT to, attach at your own risk, or don't address it at all.
Whether you do or not, whether you are suppose to or not, doesn't negate the fact that a shopping cart with babe and carrier, will be top and front heavy. The risk of the thing tipping over increases.
My responsibility as a CPS educator extends to every child.

Peg Perego. It doesn't say not to do it in the manual, I checked.

Since I have addressed your question, can you respond to the comments about putting a wriggling preschooler in the shopping cart seat? I'm not seeing how a stationary carseat is a bigger risk.


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat* 
Peg Perego. It doesn't say not to do it in the manual, I checked.

Since I have addressed your question, can you respond to the comments about putting a wriggling preschooler in the shopping cart seat? I'm not seeing how a stationary carseat is a bigger risk.

Peg Perego recommends it not be done but have left it up to the discretion of the parent by not addressing it specifically in their manual.
I am not an expert or certified in shopping carts or their safety and I never stated a stationary car seat is a bigger risk. Common sense would dictate that uneven weight distribution in a shopping cart, increases the potential for the thing to tip over, and/or the occupant to fall out, whether its a wriggling toddler or a stationary seat with babe. Technically, since the shopping cart has wheels, the car seat attached to it really isn't stationary.
My personal opinion is that both have the potential to be dangerous. Shopping cart injuries are tracked. A quick search brought up this http://aappolicy.aappublications.org...;118/2/825.pdf
I stand behind my assertion that the vast majority of infant car seats should not be attached to a shopping cart seat (deferring to owner's manual specs/manufacturer directions). They are child restraints for a motor vehicle.


----------



## vloky (Apr 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren* 
Peg Perego recommends it not be done but have left it up to the discretion of the parent by not addressing it specifically in their manual.
I am not an expert or certified in shopping carts or their safety and I never stated a stationary car seat is a bigger risk. Common sense would dictate that uneven weight distribution in a shopping cart, increases the potential for the thing to tip over, and/or the occupant to fall out, whether its a wriggling toddler or a stationary seat with babe. Technically, since the shopping cart has wheels, the car seat attached to it really isn't stationary.
My personal opinion is that both have the potential to be dangerous. Shopping cart injuries are tracked. A quick search brought up this http://aappolicy.aappublications.org...;118/2/825.pdf
I stand behind my assertion that the vast majority of infant car seats should not be attached to a shopping cart seat (deferring to owner's manual specs/manufacturer directions). They are child restraints for a motor vehicle.

So where do you put your baby then? Should we sling a screaming baby who hates being worn? Throw them in the seat inside the cart? Or just leave them at home? Some places have carts with built in car seats, but I could never seem to get one. I would always keep a hand on the car seat as I went through the store. Never walked away, always kept a hand firmly on the seat on the cart..


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vloky* 
So where do you put your baby then? Should we sling a screaming baby who hates being worn? Throw them in the seat inside the cart? Or just leave them at home? Some places have carts with built in car seats, but I could never seem to get one. I would always keep a hand on the car seat as I went through the store. Never walked away, always kept a hand firmly on the seat on the cart..

I always put the bucket in the basket of the cart.








. I have two kids and I made it work. Put items around the seat and underneath. Another trick, get a basket and put it under the cart. It holds more then just the shelf under the cart alone. Things don't roll off as easily either.


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vloky* 
So where do you put your baby then? Should we sling a screaming baby who hates being worn? Throw them in the seat inside the cart? Or just leave them at home? Some places have carts with built in car seats, but I could never seem to get one. I would always keep a hand on the car seat as I went through the store. Never walked away, always kept a hand firmly on the seat on the cart..

I mentioned some other methods of shopping with a babe in a prior post. You can sling, use a carrier, or place the infant carrier in the cart. Maybe someone else has more suggestions, but that's all I can think of. If a parent or caregiver chooses to place the carrier on top of the cart, that's their choice. However many parents and caregivers do NOT know in the majority of cases that it isn't allowed per the manufacturer and may not think of the potential dangers when attaching it to a cart. If they knew, they would have an opportunity to choose differently.


----------



## felix23 (Nov 7, 2006)

I love my bucket seat! For the longest time driving in the care was the only way to get my dd to go to sleep. She would also sleep better if we just let her stay in the seat after we carried it into the house. There was no way in the world that I was going to risk waking her up just so I could lay her in the crib. I know that some people do abuse them, but that is the parent's fault not the carseat. My dd is really tiny and at 23 months still fits into the one my parents have. She is about to out grow the height limit so I'm not sure what my mom is going to do them. The only way she can get her to sleep is in the carseat.


----------



## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

as i assumed, the majority of the shopping cart accidents come from misuse or irresponsible use

Quote:

Injuries to children associated with shopping carts occur via several mechanisms:
falling from carts, carts tipping over, and other mechanisms such as becoming
entrapped in a cart, *falling off a cart while riding on the outside, striking
against a cart, and being run over by a cart*.2 Falls from shopping carts and cart
tip-overs accounted for 58% and 26% of injuries, respectively, in one study.2
Among children younger than 2 years in this study, tip-over injuries accounted for
38% of shopping cart-related injuries.2


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Most of the time, I shop at one of two grocery stores. A bucket will fit in the basket of the cart at one of them, but if I put ds2 in the seat, I might as well go home, as there's not enough room left for more than 2 or 3 items. The shopping baskets at that store won't fit on the lower shelf, either.

At the other store, the cart has two baskets - a small one behind the seat, and a full-sized one on the bottom. Fitting a bucket into the lower basket is almost impossible. If I manage it, I can't really put much in there, because the upper basket and the side of the bucket block off most of the lower basket, leaving only a small gap at each side to fit things in (a gallon of milk, for example will not go into the basket). That means my groceries almost all go into the upper basket...meaning I can't see my baby!! That doesn't work for me at all.

I'm going to ask my mom what she did when she shopped with us as infants. Slings/carriers weren't really around, so I know she didn't use one. If I have another baby who hates being worn, it wouldn't hurt to find an alternative to the bucket. I still won't wake up a sleeping baby unless I absolutely have to, though...so baby stays in the bucket at the store, unless he/she is awake when we get there.


----------



## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Most of the time, I shop at one of two grocery stores. A bucket will fit in the basket of the cart at one of them, but if I put ds2 in the seat, I might as well go home, as there's not enough room left for more than 2 or 3 items. The shopping baskets at that store won't fit on the lower shelf, either.

At the other store, the cart has two baskets - a small one behind the seat, and a full-sized one on the bottom. Fitting a bucket into the lower basket is almost impossible. If I manage it, I can't really put much in there, because the upper basket and the side of the bucket block off most of the lower basket, leaving only a small gap at each side to fit things in (a gallon of milk, for example will not go into the basket). That means my groceries almost all go into the upper basket...meaning I can't see my baby!! That doesn't work for me at all.

I'm going to ask my mom what she did when she shopped with us as infants. Slings/carriers weren't really around, so I know she didn't use one. If I have another baby who hates being worn, it wouldn't hurt to find an alternative to the bucket. I still won't wake up a sleeping baby unless I absolutely have to, though...so baby stays in the bucket at the store, unless he/she is awake when we get there.


Superstore? That's where we have carts like that here. I can't remember if I used a bucket in there. I think I put it in the bottom basket, and put small times aorund it and in top basket, andnad larger items underneath. I do remember just having her lay on a jacket or blanket in the bottom part too. Obviously before she was sitting up or puling up or crawling at all.

It was way easier once she was big enough to sit in the seat. Now she wants to sit in the back, and I can't let her, of course, so we hate those carts.

The one good thing, if you have 2 kids, is they both fit in the seats at the top. (as soon as baby is big enough, that is.)


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angelcat* 
Superstore? That's where we have carts like that here. I can't remember if I used a bucket in there. I think I put it in the bottom basket, and put small times aorund it and in top basket, andnad larger items underneath. I do remember just having her lay on a jacket or blanket in the bottom part too. Obviously before she was sitting up or puling up or crawling at all.

Yes - Superstore. I could rarely get the bucket in the bottom. I can't imagine doing the jacket/blanket thing with dd - tried it once, and she went totally and utterly ballistic. I probably should have at least tried it with ds2 - totally different personality. OTOH, I personally really like to have my baby where I can see him/her while shopping.

Quote:

It was way easier once she was big enough to sit in the seat. Now she wants to sit in the back, and I can't let her, of course, so we hate those carts.

The one good thing, if you have 2 kids, is they both fit in the seats at the top. (as soon as baby is big enough, that is.)
I have two young kids, and they do fit in the seat. Of course, when baby-under-construction arrives, I have to juggle them again.

What do you mean "sit in the back" - the upper basket? DD sits there quite often. As long as she stays seated, I don't worry about it.


----------



## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Yes - Superstore. I could rarely get the bucket in the bottom. I can't imagine doing the jacket/blanket thing with dd - tried it once, and she went totally and utterly ballistic. I probably should have at least tried it with ds2 - totally different personality. OTOH, I personally really like to have my baby where I can see him/her while shopping.

I have two young kids, and they do fit in the seat. Of course, when baby-under-construction arrives, I have to juggle them again.

What do you mean "sit in the back" - the upper basket? DD sits there quite often. As long as she stays seated, I don't worry about it.


I remember pushing the cart kinda from the side, trying to watch Rachel while she was in the bottom basket. It sucked.

By back, I mean the lower basket. Rachel still needs to be reminded contsantly to stay sitting down. When she's older, that may work, right now, it's too risky.


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wonderwahine* 
as i assumed, the majority of the shopping cart accidents come from misuse or irresponsible use

Quote:
Injuries to children associated with shopping carts occur via several mechanisms:
falling from carts, carts tipping over, and other mechanisms such as becoming
entrapped in a cart, *falling off a cart while riding on the outside, striking
against a cart, and being run over by a cart*.2 Falls from shopping carts and cart
tip-overs accounted for 58% and 26% of injuries, respectively, in one study.2
Among children younger than 2 years in this study, tip-over injuries accounted for
38% of shopping cart-related injuries.2 [/QUOTE]

What you bolded isn't what made up the majority of injuries. I read it as *"Falls from shopping carts and cart
tip-overs accounted for 58% and 26% of injuries, respectively, in one study*
Falls from carts is considered a category wholly by itself. "Other mechanisms" is clearly defined there when it says "and other mechanisms such as becoming entrapped in a cart, falling off a cart while riding on the outside, striking against a cart, and being run over by a cart". In the excerpt you quoted, it doesn't breakdown "falls from shopping carts".
How does this relate to infant car seats are restraints for motor vehicles? I'm confused.


----------



## wonderwahine (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren* 
Quote:
Injuries to children associated with shopping carts occur via several mechanisms:
falling from carts, carts tipping over, and other mechanisms such as becoming
entrapped in a cart, *falling off a cart while riding on the outside, striking
against a cart, and being run over by a cart*.2 Falls from shopping carts and cart
tip-overs accounted for 58% and 26% of injuries, respectively, in one study.2
Among children younger than 2 years in this study, tip-over injuries accounted for
38% of shopping cart-related injuries.2

What you bolded isn't what made up the majority of injuries. It said *"Falls from shopping carts and cart
tip-overs accounted for 58% and 26% of injuries, respectively, in one study*
Falls from carts is considered a category wholly by itself. "Other mechanisms" is clearly defined there when it says "and other mechanisms such as becoming entrapped in a cart, falling off a cart while riding on the outside, striking against a cart, and being run over by a cart". In the excerpt you quoted, it doesn't breakdown "falls from shopping carts".

and depending on which study you trust, its still only 26 - 58% of the injurys...


----------



## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren* 
Peg Perego recommends it not be done but have left it up to the discretion of the parent by not addressing it specifically in their manual.

You don't say.

So, you're telling me that this company knows that their product can be used in a horrifyingly dangerous way, but chooses instead to keep their customers totally in the dark about this liability.

I don't buy it. Not when I can't purchase a cup of coffee these days that doesn't say "Warning! Contents hot!" on the side of the cup.


----------



## chinaKat (Aug 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I'm going to ask my mom what she did when she shopped with us as infants. Slings/carriers weren't really around, so I know she didn't use one.

Maybe she left you in the car!!!


----------



## bluetoes (May 12, 2007)

We used a bucket seat / carrier until wee man was around 7 months old and he got too big for it. It would only be mean if we'd left him in it all the time. If he was unhappy he'd let us know believe me! But a good portion of the time he'd nap in the car or coo and smile in stores and restaurants. I can't imagine waking him when he was a tiny baby to put him in a carrier. That seems mean to me.

I use the carrier a lot now because he really likes and I like it too. If he hated it the stroller would get a lot more use for sure.

Isn't AP about being in tune of the needs of your own child versus being mommier than though about every other mother?


----------



## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vloky* 
So where do you put your baby then? Should we sling a screaming baby who hates being worn? Throw them in the seat inside the cart? Or just leave them at home? Some places have carts with built in car seats, but I could never seem to get one. I would always keep a hand on the car seat as I went through the store. Never walked away, always kept a hand firmly on the seat on the cart..

Don't you know that women with small children should just not leave the house for 6 or 8 months? Thats how it was done In The Olden Days! If you don't have one of your mothers living with you, you just have the grocery store send over the Delivery Boy, of course!

.... My kids both outgrew the bucket pretty quick (5mos for one, 4mos for the other). If the sling wasn't working, I would use my coat to line the seat area of the cart and then put the padded sling into it, and then nestle baby into that...

(waits for someone to explain how horrifically dangerous that was)

I also shopped with a framed backpack rather than the sling once my older child was sitting up well enough, since he liked that better and couldn't shred the kale while I was selecting which bunch to buy.


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

I think what we all need to remember is common sense people. Common sense.


----------



## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

Instead of lobbying against the bucket (loved mine at times), why don't you expend your energy educating people about the joys of babywearing?

You can start with your playgroup.


----------



## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chinaKat* 
You don't say.

So, you're telling me that this company knows that their product can be used in a horrifyingly dangerous way, but chooses instead to keep their customers totally in the dark about this liability.

I don't buy it. Not when I can't purchase a cup of coffee these days that doesn't say "Warning! Contents hot!" on the side of the cup.

Um. It wouldn't be the first time a company has done something like it.







. One need only look to mounds of case law as proof that there are plenty of product liability lawsuits for failure to warn, faulty design, and misrepresentation among other things. Whether said cases are all legit is for a different thread and is a different topic.

Feel free to call Peg Perego customer service and ask them. Anyone else want to call? Here's the customer service number:

USA Customer Service Hours:
Monday - Friday
8:00am to 8:30pm EST

USA Infant & Toddler Product Customer Service: (800) 671-1701
USA Ride-On Vehicle Customer Service: (800) 728-2108
USA Spanish-Speaking Customer Service: (800) 225-1558
USA Customer Service Fax: (260) 471-6332

If you feel comfortable clipping your Peg Perego car seat to a shopping cart, then it is my opinion that you have calculated the risk and appear to be comfortable with it. My warning is for those who don't know or haven't thought about it, and therefore aren't armed with the information necessary to make an educated decision no matter what infant car seat they have.


----------



## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

http://www.mothering.com/articles/gr...car-seats.html

http://www.oandp.org/jpo/library/2003_03_102.asp

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=000...3E2.0.CO%3B2-3


----------



## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

I havent read any of these posts yet, but to the OP:

Those suck! I used one with my kids and always thought "why am I doing this to my body!" They are sooooooooooooooooooo annoying to carry everywhere!!!

I dont know why so many americans carry them, honestly.







:


----------



## TheTruth (Apr 8, 2007)

So its like exactly like that babywearing shit? Where they dont walk for themselves?


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
I havent read any of these posts yet, but to the OP:

Those suck! I used one with my kids and always thought "why am I doing this to my body!" They are sooooooooooooooooooo annoying to carry everywhere!!!

I dont know why so many americans carry them, honestly.







:

I love mine. I don't find it that heavy.


----------



## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood* 
I love mine. I don't find it that heavy.









Its not as heavy as it is akward, for me.


----------



## 93085 (Oct 11, 2007)

Oh, I hated carrying the bucket around. I'm short and frankly weak, and it really was heavy and awkward for me. But it's not like I used it for a walk around the block. I carried her from the car into the house, or from the car to the stroller. I found it very useful in all the ways observed (though she wasn't one to sleep in it at night), and yes, she was frequently in it for more than 45 minutes a stretch, as I wasn't about to wake her if she was snoozing. If she was in it and awake she usually got picked up pretty promptly, as she's so flipping adorable it's hard for me to keep my hands off of her.

BTW, I almost always put the carrier in the main basket of the shopping cart; it always just felt more secure to me. Really can't imagine why that would be unsafe??? I miss it for that purpose now that she has outgrown it--now she has to sit in the uncomfortable, germy child seats up top, or else I have to haul around one of those godawful shopping cart covers. She's WAY too heavy for me to sling around the supermarket now--besides, how would I ever lift the 30 lb bucket of kitty litter with a baby attached to me??


----------



## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

I have winter babies, and I live in Iowa. It gets VERY VERY VERY cold here. No way I'm pulling my coat-less newborn into the freezing cold, struggeling to put a coat on a floppy newborn, and THEN carrying her to big brother-repeat (I do put a coat on James, but mainly because 1) He can stand in the back of the van and 2) He can help). It's freezing outside. I have the little cassarole cover over the carseat...I'm probably gonna leave her in it...at least until we get into the store, then I'll pull her out and sling her (if anything to keep strangers from touching her).

If I had a spring/summer baby I probably wouldn't worry about it so much, but winter in Iowa is pretty dreadful.


----------



## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JamesMama* 
I have winter babies, and I live in Iowa. It gets VERY VERY VERY cold here. No way I'm pulling my coat-less newborn into the freezing cold, struggeling to put a coat on a floppy newborn, and THEN carrying her to big brother-repeat (I do put a coat on James, but mainly because 1) He can stand in the back of the van and 2) He can help). It's freezing outside. I have the little cassarole cover over the carseat...I'm probably gonna leave her in it...at least until we get into the store, then I'll pull her out and sling her (if anything to keep strangers from touching her).

If I had a spring/summer baby I probably wouldn't worry about it so much, but winter in Iowa is pretty dreadful.

ooh, yeah, I have only lived away from winter for 2 years and I have already forgotten! LOL

Denmark is pretty friggin cold too though, OP, isnt it?

How do danish mommys deal with cold? (Is that right, danish? Ugh-I didnt retain anything from school---I am sorry if I sound totally uneducated!)


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
ooh, yeah, I have only lived away from winter for 2 years and I have already forgotten! LOL

Denmark is pretty friggin cold too though, OP, isnt it?

How do danish mommys deal with cold? (Is that right, danish? Ugh-I didnt retain anything from school---I am sorry if I sound totally uneducated!)

http://www.mapsofworld.com/denmark/denmark-weather.html

Looks like the weather is pretty mild.


----------



## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JamesMama* 
I have winter babies, and I live in Iowa. It gets VERY VERY VERY cold here. No way I'm pulling my coat-less newborn into the freezing cold, struggeling to put a coat on a floppy newborn, and THEN carrying her to big brother-repeat (I do put a coat on James, but mainly because 1) He can stand in the back of the van and 2) He can help). It's freezing outside. I have the little cassarole cover over the carseat...I'm probably gonna leave her in it...at least until we get into the store, then I'll pull her out and sling her (if anything to keep strangers from touching her).

If I had a spring/summer baby I probably wouldn't worry about it so much, but winter in Iowa is pretty dreadful.

Yeah I'm in MN/ND and we regularly get -35 F. wind chills and -20 F. temps during the winter. Average low is -18. I totally feel your pain and I use my bucket all the time in the winter.


----------



## Needle in the Hay (Sep 16, 2006)

I didn't have a bucket system but I can see how they would really come in handy at times.
If the baby is sleeping in the bucket you simply can't judge. We had one of those bed-in-a-prams a PP or two mentioned (not very practical for the car--the bed was actually the carseat but it takes up the whole backseat) but I remember sometimes we'd walk down to a restaurant, sit outside, and DS would sleep the whole time. So no, he didn't get out of his pram for about 2 hours. Guess who was at home snuggling him for the next three hours while he nursed on and off?

I saw two buckets this morning in a doctor's waiting room. Both babies were sleeping when they came in. They both woke up around the same time. One mama, whose DP was with her, took her baby out immediately, held him, nursed him, let him look around the room and take it all in, etc. The other mama did a bit of cooing first (she was alone and had a toddler with her too, I can understand her not being quite ready for her break to be over) but when the baby began to fuss she took her out and held her. The dr. kindly grabbed the bucket for her so she didn't need to put the baby back in. The buckets were a great convenience but not misused. Is it preferable to wake a sleeping baby to wait in a pretty boring room for an hour?


----------



## JamesMama (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lovingmommyhood* 
Yeah I'm in MN/ND and we regularly get -35 F. wind chills and -20 F. temps during the winter. Average low is -18. I totally feel your pain and I use my bucket all the time in the winter.

Oh, brrrr, it's not quite THAT cold thankfully. But we have our fair share of below zero days and pushing the double digits below zero with the windchill.

For me it's the trying to bundle up a floppy newborn while my backside is hanging out the van and *I'm* freezing half to death myself. I'd much rather go get James, toss a coat on him, come back to baby, zip the casserole cover (I'm sure it has a proper name, I call it a casserole cover?), grab the car seat, throw a blanket over her and walk into the store/drs office/coffee shop/whatever

She'll be born early November (or so they tell me) so I will probably be able to leave the car seat in the car for a couple weeks, but come mid-November, early December it'll be WINTER in Iowa...brrrrrrr

I wish DH didn't need to stay in Iowa for his job, I'd SOOO become a snow-bird in the winter, Florida here I come!


----------



## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

I am very thankful to be in FL while my kids are young. Dh wants to live in a snowy place but I cannot imagine dressing 3 kids everyday for cold weather. I would spend all day just getting us dressed!









We'll move when the kids are old enough to dress themselves.


----------



## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

Well it is minus 2c (about 28-30f) right now, so yea, it gets cold here. We had a snowman last Christmas that lasted late january/early february. The real issue is the darkness. By Christmas, it will be dark until 10am, and the sun will set again after lunch. Of course in mid-july it doesn't set until 10pm, and we have beautiful sunsets.

Well, thats way OT. I hope people have relaxed a bit. I was not trying to get a war here about these car seat strollers making people "bad" parents. I do not think AP parents who use them are leaving their kids in there for 5-6 hours straight on a regular basis. What I have seen is my own english mother-baby group, and 6 out of 8 of us do this. So it scares me. What I am concerned about is the health factors (bad spine, emotional detatchment....) from prolonged use, which I think is easy to get into the bad habit of, with these car seat-strollers. I think the *mainstream* public should be informed of this. No, I do not need to take the worlds problems on my shoulders, but everyone has to start somewhere, and stand up for something. This is my hill I think.

PS - Transformed - I like your new tagline.

PPS - the sleeping baby in cold issue. Mainstream, and some AP as well, use barnevogns for sleeping. It is literally a big fancy crib on wheels, with a mini unit for small babes, a raincoat that covers the whole thing in rain (a lot of rain here) a dark mesh thing for shade when they are sleeping.... These barenevogns pack down for car transport, but most danes also do a lot of walking with it to the store for shopping (there is a huge rack underneath can hold 4 full bags). You can take your barnevogn on the buses and trains - there is a special space for them. My common transport is bus, bike and walking, and this is normal for most Danes. If you are really far from work you drive, or take the train. See here: http://www.tojbamsen.dk/group.asp?group=575&sub=59
and mine: http://abrosenlund.com/photos/View.php?pictno=18


----------



## grumpybear (Oct 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AllisonR* 
PPS - the sleeping baby in cold issue. Mainstream, and some AP as well, use barnevogns for sleeping. It is literally a big fancy crib on wheels, with a mini unit for small babes, a raincoat that covers the whole thing in rain (a lot of rain here) a dark mesh thing for shade when they are sleeping.... These barenevogns pack down for car transport, but most danes also do a lot of walking with it to the store for shopping (there is a huge rack underneath can hold 4 full bags). You can take your barnevogn on the buses and trains - there is a special space for them. My common transport is bus, bike and walking, and this is normal for most Danes. If you are really far from work you drive, or take the train. See here: http://www.tojbamsen.dk/group.asp?group=575&sub=59
and mine: http://abrosenlund.com/photos/View.php?pictno=18


I've read most of the thread but I apologize if I missed something. So Danes use prams a lot is what I gather, right?
So what's the diff between the prams and buckling the carseat in a stroller? IMO, the carseat+stroller configuration would seem to be more convenient since you don't have to wake a sleeping baby.

When I was pregnant, I swore I would not be one of those parents that carried carseats to the store. Well, of course reality and winter set in and I had to eat my words a bit. When DS was a newborn, he slept A LOT and I felt it would be much kinder to let him sleep while I shopped. I wasn't that comfortable with the sling yet so carseat inside the main basket of the cart was the compromise for me. I had a huge bucket so putting the seat on top of the little basket scared me. And it also helped that we did not have to mess with snowsuits and all. The carseat was warm all the time and blankets kept my DS warm.
Of course it goes without saying that whenever DS was awake, he'd be out of the carseat. Come to think of it, I've never seen a child that was crying/fussing in their seats NOT be attended to by their moms.


----------



## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

As so many have said, it doesn't matter if kid is in car seat, stroller, barnevogn.... if they are sleeping, let them be, and if fussing, pick them up. The *problem* with the car seat is that the child is in a curled position, supported by the seat and not his own body. Perfect when you are in a car reck - because then the seat is doing the supporting, not the baby having to protect himself with his own strength. Not so perfect when he is not in the car - he needs to use his won body, not be stuck in a position that does all the work for him.

The car seat on wheels is fine, except when it is overused, in which case it causes flat heads, spinal problems (not to mention emotional detatchment imo). If a child is in your arms, in a sling, in a stroller, in a barenevogn.... whatever mix you like, they can use more of their body. A sling is actually very good for strength and spine, a barenevogn they can ly on their backs or side, or sit using their pwn body if old enough....

Again, I don't see overuse by AP, but I can, and have seen firsthand, abuse by mainstream mommas, who use it every day, for 4,5,8 hours. (Note: I am not saying all mainstream mommas do this. I feel I have to watch every single word I write or someone will take offense. But now I digress.)


----------



## SquishyKitty (Jun 10, 2005)

We have similar strollers here in germany, and they also tilt up in the back to support newborn babies. I don't see a difference between those and the bucket seats. Honestly, of all the things to get upset about, that should be on the bottom of your list.

It's been said repeatedly, those who would ignore the child in a bucket would probably do the same thing in a stroller.


----------

