# Continue caring for my nephew, or stop? (UPDATE post #75)



## WindyCityMom (Aug 17, 2009)

*sigh*. Remember my nephew with the too-small shoe issue? DH and I care for him 1-2 times of week. Not out of necessity- he has others who can and do watch him when we can't. He is enrolled in the same gymnastics class as our daughter 1x per week. We just wanted him to get out of the house every so often. He rarely gets out.

DN has some developmental delays. He's 2 years and 2 months old. Sometimes I feel like, when dealing with him, I'm dealing with my DD when she was 15 months old. I don't expect to reason with a 2 year old, I know that they're really not capable of that yet, and I know that for the most part kids of that age lack impulse control. That is totally understandable.

My daughter doesn't understand why he hurts her and acts out and why what he does is allowed to "fly" as opposed to her. She's 2 years and 9 months old. She is able to be reasoned with, and though she does tend to misbehave, understands the natural consequences of her actions and is at times able to predict what might happen if she does xyz misbehavior. She is one for testing boundaries and is very spirited. She just really doesn't understand why my DN can do things she can't (kick people repeatedly, punch, pinch, hit). She often asks him to stop whatever "bad" thing he's doing and attempts to explain to him what could possibly happen if he continues the behavior- but it is of course to no avail.

My DN does not really eat much food- he guzzles bottles of milk all day (walks around with them) and oh man he MUST get them. I made the mistake of forgetting his bottle when we went to gymnastics yesterday and had to use one of DDs clean sippy cups (the kind with the silicone top- had it for my now 9 month old over the summer because she liked to chomp on the spout.. never drank the water though







) that were in the car. Didn't work.. he wasn't able to drink out of it and he spilled it all over himself in the car because he didn't know what to do. I felt terrible because he was without his milk, and he needed it.

Caring for him is very similar to caring for my now 9 month old, only without the breastfeeding, and he can walk. He is extremely high-needs. He is non-verbal (knows a few words though.. "choo-choo", "mommy" (he calls ME mommy.. doesn't call his own mom mommy and my kids dont call me mommy, they call me mama, so no clue where he got that), and "te-ta" (bottle), oh and yesterday learned the word "window" from my DD







), and screams and acts out to get your attention. Much in the way that my 9 month old does







It is just a lot to handle.

It is incredibly difficult for me to care for a very tall 35lb toddler who wants to flop everywhere and wander around. He frequently throws himself on the floor. He does not understand simple commands "Please stand up/sit/come here" in English or Spanish (the two languages that are spoken around him). It is SO hard for me to have to scoop him up, while still caring for my 9 month old and 2yo.

I knew what I was getting into when I offered to take him along with us on our "field trips". I knew that he was incredibly violent and had developmental delays. I LOVE my nephew. I was under the impression that "Oh, a little love will go a long way". I was wrong. I was thinking that putting him into our world of care and gentle discipline would help him out.

His parents don't really care for him as more than an accessory, which I am very sorry to say. His clothes are always the wrong size or inappropriate for the weather (because they're "in style"), They never take him outside (his mom was a SAHM for the first two years of his life and he was just dropped off at his grandmother's house for most of it). His grandmother (my gmil, DHs grandma... he's really my DHs 1st cousin, just much younger) lives upstairs from me. When he gets outside, he runs free and doesn't know what to do with himself. He is constantly spoken to in baby talk, he doesn't know his name (is starting to learn it because of DH and I) because he has had a million ridiculous nicknames (one that was, translated, "Dirty/Nasty little [insert his name here]" because it rhymed







). He is violent because he gets hit (his parents have slapped him in front of us because he hit my DD.. wonderful example...) I just feel so sorry for him. I wanted to care for him to help him out a little- let him enjoy his childhood.

My DH doesn't want us to care for him any more. He says that we are confusing our daughter by allowing him to do whatever he wants. IT Is confusing her though... she doesn't get why he can do things she can't. He is her size, they could pass for twins. It's hard to explain that "hes little and doesn't know any better" when he's really NOT as little as we're making him out to be.

What really angers me about my DHs attitude towards the situation is the fact that he says that our DN "is embarrassing and is making us look bad as parents". We do get looks and comments from strangers. They don't understand that the little boy who looks 2 years old doesn't act like a 2 year old because he is not developmentally there yet. Or maybe they do understand that- they just think we messed up as parents. Either way- it's none of their business- but my DH is a very proud person (as much as he doesn't want to admit it) and he can't stand it.

I feel like... if I don't care for him on these occasions, no one will be there for him. I was his advocate when his shoes didn't fit him (a few sizes too small). Finally new shoes were put on him and they're still small.. just not AS small.

Sorry this is long.. but wwyd? Keep caring for him and be willing to work through his quirks, knowing there's nothing you can do to help it and knowing that it is making your own child miserable? Or tell his parents sorry, we can't care for him, he is high needs and we are just not prepared to take on that responsiblity right now.








I really don't know how to feel or deal with this.


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## CarrieMF (Mar 7, 2004)

Your DH needs to adjust his attitude & stop being petty.

When the DN is with you why are you letting him get away with things you don't let your dd?

he doesn't sound that developmentally off other than the talking. Alot of his "delays" seem to be things that he can easily catch up on when treated like a 2yo & not like a baby.


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## lula (Feb 26, 2003)

I would continue taking care of him. I think your DH is completely off base. Who cares what other people think: a child's needs are much more important than the anonymous public. Deal.

I also would stop stressing so much about his delays etc. Does he really not understand the simplest commands? how does he do in class? are his developmental issues diagnosed? I am not saying that he doesn't have problems, I am just saying that maybe he doesn't. How does his grandmother care for him? Even if he wasn't with his mother for a large portion of two years he was with his grandmother, how is she?

I also don't think the sippy cup thing is a big deal, in fact I would continue giving him a cup instead of a bottle and help him learn how to use it. (maybe keep a bottle as back-up in case he really can't use it but I would expect that in a bit he will figure it out)


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

He doesn't sound like a 9 month old, though I get why you are comparing him to one... Just don't give in to his tantrums, talk to him like a human (no babytalk), and expect him to be a big boy in your presence (within reason). I mean, 2 is still very little, of course, but he will start acquiring more words - and using them to express how he feels. So, just model and encourage that.

If you don't want the stress of watching a 3rd child (understandable), then that's one thing, but I wouldnt stop including him b/c your DH cares what others think. There will be plenty of times when your own children will misbehave and embarrass you in public - promise! Especially as they get older and are more opinionated and stubborn. Might as well ignore the stares from outsiders now.

Since your aren't his mother, I would try not to worry or judge aboutthe bottle. Just as many 2 year olds still need to nurse frequently, he finds comfort in his bottle. If his life is as you say, then that's probably a good thing for him, yk?


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Your nephew sounds a lot like my youngest son was at that age, so I completely understand the frustration of a child who can't understand or follow directions in the same way that other kids his age can and gets frustrated because he can't communicate. If you continue to care for him, you really need to just think of him as a large 12-18 month old - keep showing him by example, redirecting, etc, but don't expect complete compliance. FTR, my son is 5 now, and while he's still a little behind his peers, he's not nearly as behind as he was from about 2 to 3.5.

However, I think you do need to consider whether caring for him is in your best interest and the best interest of your children. I would be pretty annoyed if my husband was worried that a child (whether ours or someone else's) would "make us look bad" and want to stop caring for the child because of that. However, it doesn't mean it's wrong that he wants you to consider stopping. It sounds like you're really overwhelmed taking care of him and your own children and your family life is suffering. You have to decide on whether the good effects your involvement might have on your nephew is worth the negative effects you taking him on is having on the rest of your family.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

I did want to add, though, that there really _is_ a big difference between a newly 2 (your nephew) and a coming up on 3 (your dd). While your dd might have a hard time understanding it, being the same size does not equal being of the same abilities and maturity level. Those 7 months between them can be huge, especially if your dd is mature for her age and your nephew has delays. It might be a good time to talk to your daughter about this (size doesn't equal maturity, age appropriate discussion about developmental delays, compassion for the difficulties of others, etc).


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## confustication (Mar 18, 2006)

My 27 month old DS is much like your nephew in some ways. He does have delays, and we are working with him to help him learn language skills to help with the frustration. Also, as a result of global delay and hypotonia, he prefers nursing or using a bottle. Yes, I still allow him access to a bottle at times. He may physically be 2, but emotionally, he is NOT, and while most of the time I hand him a sippy cup and he uses that, sometimes he is too tired to coordinate that well.

Sometimes you just go with what works because there are bigger fish to fry in a kid's life, you know?

Also, I do get some people who are judgmental about my parenting when he responds in a way most kids his age don't. If I let that define my self-worth and my skill as a parent I would never go out which is a much bigger disservice to him.

A young two year old with developmental delays is hard to understand. Kids change SO fast over the first few years that those few months really are huge. They look like they should be able to do more and understand more than they can, and that throws people off. As the family member with the child, you can certainly deflect some of that and clarify- simply modeling the approach that DOES work is usually enough.

At any rate, if you don't want to do this because it's more than YOU can manage- fine, but if you want to not take him because your husband needs outside validation to feel worthwhile as a parent and feels that somehow caring for a kid who needs a little extra love takes away from that- I think he's missed the boat.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

Your DH needs to adjust his attitude & stop being petty.
That was a little harsh. It sounds like watching him is putting a strain on everyone in the family. I don't know if we should jump on the dh for being embarassed by having this kid out in public with him.

Has your nephew been tested for developmental delays? Is he receiving any sort of therapy?


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## marinak1977 (Feb 24, 2009)

I think your DN is very fortunate to have such a great advocate in his life. I admire your efforts and your commitement to him. If you can - keep going, and it will pay off big time in this little boy's life. I wish you strength and support. Sending you and your family positive vibes.


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## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
I did want to add, though, that there really _is_ a big difference between a newly 2 (your nephew) and a coming up on 3 (your dd). While your dd might have a hard time understanding it, being the same size does not equal being of the same abilities and maturity level. Those 7 months between them can be huge, especially if your dd is mature for her age and your nephew has delays. It might be a good time to talk to your daughter about this (size doesn't equal maturity, age appropriate discussion about developmental delays, compassion for the difficulties of others, etc).









and girls tend to mature faster than boys so that may contribute to the gap in their abilities also.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

When you say developmental delays, are you talking a bout a specifically dx'd SN, or are you simply trying to say he is behind where your DD was a few month ago when she was his age. Everything you mention sounds like it can be clearly explained by environment. The speech may just be do to being spoken to in babytalk combined with a bilingual environment. The violence is pretty typical for the age, and if he is being hit that is just reinforcing it. The bottle is pretty common, my DS still nursed more than he drank from cups at that age.

I don't understand why you are just tolerating him hitting/kicking/etc though. If he hurts your DD, take him to a quiet place away from her for a few moments and tell him using simple clear language that he can only return to playing with her if he doesn't hit/kick/etc. Repeat as often as necessary. It is very typical for a child this age to need repeated correction for this kind of behavior.


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## Girlprof (Jun 11, 2007)

You might consider posting some of these issues over on the special needs board, if you're not already. There are wonderful people over there who can help you think through some of this stuff. You're facing a tough situation. I can absolutely understand wanting to help out a nephew - I would want to help mine, for sure. Yet with three small kids, well, that's a lot.

I wouldn't worry much about your daughter not understanding why DN gets away with stuff and she doesn't. I would try telling her something like, DN hasn't learned X yet. You have already learned it. It's not bad that your DD tries to explain things to your DN. Our DD has tried to explain things to our cats, her stuffed animals and various inanimate objects. It is part of her learning process. If she is going to continue to spend time with DN, which I assume she is, she is going to learn that his abilities are different. I would just take most of that at face value but I do think the special needs board may have more insight. There have been some kids with special needs in our preschool and the other kids learn how to get along and also that the rules may be different for different kids.

As for your DH, well, it's easy to look down on his worries, but I bet a lot of parents have them. Here I would say that DN should come first, if you are able to keep helping him. Best of luck to you. It's a wonderful thing you are doing by including DN in your lives as much as you can.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

While I certainly don't believe that the purpose of children is to make their parents and other caregivers "look good," I also don't believe that it's a good idea to just disregard your husband's feelings in this matter.

My girls are older than your two children, but even so, I don't feel I could handle caring regularly for an additional, very needy, child if I didn't have my husband's support.

But, then, I sometimes found it overwhelming to take my older dd to activities a few years ago, because of how wild my younger dd would often get in these settings. It's really hard for me to even picture myself having a 2 yo in gymnastics and having to regularly put a 9-month-old in a carseat and drive places.

So I'm pretty impressed that you're even getting out and about with your _two_ children at such young ages.







I couldn't imagine adding what sounds like a very high-need little boy into the mix.

I do think it's great that you care about meeting your nephew's needs; I just think you should be really attentive to your own needs and the needs of your immediate family. I'm not sure what the right course of action is, exactly, but (as I've already said) for me it would simply be sooooo stressful to be doing all this without my dh's support.


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## WindyCityMom (Aug 17, 2009)

Thank you all soo much for being so supportive.

When I say that he gets away with stuff, I mean that even redirecting him, pulling him aside, talking with him, etc. gets nowhere. He does not understand when people speak to him- he almost does not acknowledge you. He doesn't make eye contact, unless he's coming to you for something.

His pediatrician told his parents that he had a speech delay because he was being spoken to in "baby talk". They recommended speech therapy. They never took him to the therapy because special needs are "imagined diseases so that docs can make $$$" in DHs family. It is a running joke with them... "Oh, don't talk to him in baby talk or he'll need _speech_ therapy!! [in sarcastic tone]". One of my other nephews and his little brother both have SPD- and MIL frequently makes fun of their mother and jokes that she (overweight mil speaking of herself) has a sensory issue that makes her eat too much. It's so sad.

My DN is just.. "off". I'm not really sure how to describe it. Sure, the speech is delayed, but alot of kids have speech delays and are fine in all other departments. I suspect that DN has sensory issues as well, because he does have some behaviors that lead me to think so... (ie: must [must!!] sleep on a hard surface [the floor, in most cases] and adamantly refuses to sleep on cushiony beds, couches, etc).

Talking to him is almost like talking to a wall, except a wall is stationary and he is not... he doesn't acknowledge you, and it's almost like he doesn't hear you. His doctor said he didn't have hearing problems (says his mother).

His fine motor skills are finally more developed, and his gross motor skills were lagging behind for awhile too.

For one of his first two years, his grandmother was battling cancer, and was going through chemo (It's gone now!!







). He was at her house, but under the care of his grandfather, who is an alcoholic (starts drinking at 10am and doesn't quit until the day's end). He would frequently just fall asleep in the chair and DN would sleep in his car seat all day or be in the play pen all day. Currently, grandmother is better so she does watch him, and he has a rubbermaid tote full of probably 100 matchbox cars and odds and ends to keep him busy for the 10 hours he's there for. The television is left on all day. My MIL boasts about how"oh, he doesn't even watch the TV but he needs it on, haha, he NEEDS the TV on!" I have spoken my mind to her about that but.. you know how that goes. If grandfather is watching him, and he starts crying, grandfather leaves the room because he can't stand it. Even if no one else is there to watch DN. It's so sad.


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## GalateaDunkel (Jul 22, 2005)

Your DN sounds a lot like my daughter at that age. It was very hard for me to handle her, we didn't get out much, and I don't blame you (or your DH) if it's too much on top of your own kids. (Although it may seem unkind to make an abrupt change in your arrangements - perhaps there will be a natural transition when the gymnastics class ends.)

I must say though that I don't believe that delays are caused by "babying." I think that babying is often a response to delays. If you believe that delays mean the parents are doing something wrong, then it's no wonder your husband thinks that will reflect on you in public situations where you are presumed to be the primary caregivers. I had no choice but to "baby" my daughter by meeting her where she was at. She didn't even try to say a modified version of her own name until she was three, and she's never been called anything but her proper name. She's still not potty-trained at 4.5 yrs; there's not a lot I can do about it unless I want to get into unacceptable discipline techniques like hitting or shaming. The same goes for taking her out places. What I have learned is that they will respond to appropriate parenting when they are ready and sometimes that means you have to hold on for the ride. I would not blame any non-parent for not volunteering for this, but please check the judgment on your in-laws.

Oh, and about TV - TV was a great help to me with a child like this, not only to keep her occupied, but because the speech on most children's television is clear to an almost exaggerated degree. I never baby-talked her, but clearly there was something she wasn't "getting" in the muddle of daily adult speech. Right before her speech development turned a corner, she went through a phase of repeating catch-phrases from TV over and over again. I also declined speech therapy. I am of the theory that there's not a lot that can be done about asynchronous development. I had gross motor issues into my *twenties*. I was sent to some kind of therapeutic P.E. sessions in elementary school and it did nothing but humiliate me. The only curative was time. Similarly, my husband and I made the judgment that the once-a-week group sessions in a public school environment we were offered were unlikely to make a difference in my daughter's speech development; indeed when you think about it, the idea that that would make a major difference implies a serious insult about the quality of our home environment, and I'm not talking about just allowing TV either. I think resisting the pathologization of developmental differences is well within your in-laws' rights as parents. It may not be the choice you would make for your own, but he's not your own, so all you can do is contribute on an appropriate level considering your own family's needs. I was with you on the shoes but second-guessing parenting issues of a more discretionary nature will only drive a wedge.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

There are soooo many different issues there!

About the sn stuff --
it sounds like there isn't a thing you can do about it. The parents need to get the kid a hearing check, a complete eval, and most likely some therapies, and they aren't going to do it. When the child is school age, this stuff will most likely come to a head. In the meantime, you have to figure out how much time YOU want to spend with a child who isn't getting the help he needs.

About your DD --
This is closely related to the first point. If this child had a dx and was getting help, then it would be possible to start explaining sn to her. However, that isn't the case and it seem unfair to HER to force her to spend a great deal of time with a child who is continually horrid to her.

About your DH -- on one hand, his attitude would bother me deeply. I have a sn child who sometimes makes me look bad as a parent, and I know that some people judge me. It hurts. So I don't think it's a good reason to not spend time with your nephew, but there are a lot of other reasons to really limit time with him. May be you and your DH could talk about how you would handle things if you had a child with developmental issues and what would be different -- about what you control and what you don't control. May be if you felt your DH would handle things better if it were his own child who were getting the therapies and such that he needed, you guys could get back on the same page, which is really what is best for your marrige.

For me -- my first priority is always what is best for my own children.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I would definitely take some time away without him. Your husband deserves some family time with just you and his own kids. He might be saying it wrong "making us look like bad parents", but he's being honest. Your nephew embarrasses him.

But, I wouldn't stop all together. Your nephew will mature and grow up in his own time, and he will outgrow some of this obnoxious behavior. I know how hard it is to scoop up a great big child, when you already have your own to deal with. Especially if you guys are on one level of your building, and you need to move to the other level, and he decides to turn into a puddle.

I would continue what you are doing, but perhaps do it a little less for a while.

Also, as hard as it is, you really need to try to let most of his issues go. He isn't yours, so you don't need to stress out about it. Just accept him where he is now, and completely let the rest go. The things you can't control, just don't put any thought into it. (I personally, think you should put bigger shoes on him when you take him places)

Just be the aunt and uncle that he has fond memories of. But, give your husband some time away from him, and some time of not even discussing your nephew's issues around your husband. He might be bored with the subject.


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GalateaDunkel* 

I must say though that I don't believe that delays are caused by "babying." I think that babying is often a response to delays. If you believe that delays mean the parents are doing something wrong, then it's no wonder your husband thinks that will reflect on you in public situations where you are presumed to be the primary caregivers. I had no choice but to "baby" my daughter by meeting her where she was at. She didn't even try to say a modified version of her own name until she was three, and she's never been called anything but her proper name. She's still not potty-trained at 4.5 yrs; there's not a lot I can do about it unless I want to get into unacceptable discipline techniques like hitting or shaming. The same goes for taking her out places. What I have learned is that they will respond to appropriate parenting when they are ready and sometimes that means you have to hold on for the ride. I would not blame any non-parent for not volunteering for this, but please check the judgment on your in-laws.

Oh, and about TV - TV was a great help to me with a child like this, not only to keep her occupied, but because the speech on most children's television is clear to an almost exaggerated degree. I never baby-talked her, but clearly there was something she wasn't "getting" in the muddle of daily adult speech. Right before her speech development turned a corner, she went through a phase of repeating catch-phrases from TV over and over again.

I want to say I agree 100% with this. I treat my son differently than I treated my older kids at 5 years old. I do more for him because he can't do those things for himself- it's not that he can't do them because I do them for him. Thankfully, I don't get much criticism because he's so much smaller than other kids his age (maybe the size of an average three year old?) and his speech is so unclear that people just assume he's much younger than he is.

Also, while we're not a big baby talk family, I'm pretty sure studies have shown that baby talk isn't detrimental to speech development and is actually a natural way that mothers tend to speak to their children. Being that he's from a bilingual family, it's really not surprising that his speech is a bit behind. The ability to follow directions and accept redirection really is a maturity thing. I mean, most people would expect a 12 month old not to listen when told not to touch something, and then scream when taken away to do another activity, and then try to return to the forbidden item right away. And it wouldn't be surprising if a 15 month old reached out and pinched or smacked someone who took a toy out of their hand, right? With kids those ages you just redirect, demonstrate, gently explain, remove problem items, wash-rinse-repeat, until they get it. Your nephew hasn't gotten it yet, so you have to just keep doing those things until he does.

On the tv - I just want to say a big yeah that to the poster I'm quoting. You know those horrid "teach your baby to read" videos? I can't tell you how many words my son learned from watching those over and over. I hated them, but they worked on a speech development level. Obviously I don't think kids should watch tv all day long, but my youngest watch far more tv than my older kids (and still does) because it helps him learn to talk.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

This may or may not be helpful, but here you go.

We have friends with a 22 month old daughter. She does not make eye contact. She does not communicate - not just no talking, but no grunting, repetitive consonants, nothing. She cries constantly.

For a while, we were watching the kids (she has a brother) and hanging out with the family all the time. It got to the point that DH & I were arguing about it because I had a hard time telling my friend no but this child was just so draining. It finally came to a head when the kids (mine & theirs) were in the living room while I was getting dinner out to the table. She had been crying for 2 hours straight despite holding, singing, DH dancing, anything. She was holding a shirt and rocking back and forth. (Yes, I know that's stimming, but I don't know how to tell my friend I think there's something going on with her child.) Finally my 3.5YO, who is super patient and lovey with smaller kids, walked over and knocked the child down. Then she screamed, "I'm tired of you crying!" So DH rushes in & handles it, but we realized then that we'd let it go on too far.

We took a break from being with this family as much, and I can't tell you the difference it's made. I didn't realize how much tension there was because of watching her so much. (We were with them 3-4 times a week.) We went somewhere with them last week, and the little girl cried the 2 hours we were there. Mom is exhausted and starting to look worn down, but they still think there's nothing wrong. I love my friends, but I can't change their parenting decisions. For my family, though, it's been much better to pull back than to continue on with a stress we don't have to take on.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

First: Boys and girls are different, especially verbally. Bilingual kids are different. Kids are different.

Your nephew honestly doesn't sound much different from my older child, at least as far as language comprehension and understanding rational statements. He was way over 3 before we could have "if/then, first/next" discussions, and trying to do it frustrated him immensely and made him start having screaming tantrums.

That kid today is at the top of his class for reading, writing, and anything verbal.

Of course, he wasn't being compared, every step of the way, with a cousin who was an oldest/only child, and a girl, and probably advanced for her age. I think comparing kids in the way you and your DH are doing is really risky, sometimes. ON one hand, it is important to be able to step in if a child is truly delayed. But delay is diagnosed not by comparing with one, or two, or even three other children, but with the total pool of *all* other children. You can't assume that because your DD was doing something at his age, your DN must have something wrong with him.

I know two toddlers (2yo this summer) born less than 4 months apart. They were both at a party at our house last month. One was speaking in sentences and initiating conversations. The other was pointing a lot and drooling and occasionally screaming. Both sets of parents are loving, involved, attached people. Both sets of parents have multiple high-level degrees. And both kids are well within "Normal" range for their age, developmentally.

I'm somewhat disturbed, too, by your husband's ocmment that being seen with your nephew is somehow shameful.. Children are amazingly different. My first was a challenge, my second sounds very similar to your DD. Thank goodness I had my first as my first, because it made me realize that parenting only takes you so far with some kids. Even people who have very verbal, well-behaved kids the first time may well have rambunctious, language-delayed, screaming kicking biters the second time -- and there's very little that parenting has to do with it. You and DH may have a child like your nephew in the future. Will he be ashamed then? Being *ashamed* of being with your kid in public? That could affect your child for years to come.


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## Lollybrat (Sep 18, 2008)

In all honesty, a lot of how you describe your nephew sounds a lot like my son at that age. My son was diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) just after his 3rd birthday. So I think you are right to be concerned.

I heard it all too. Relatives said that DS's speech problems were due to the way I talked to him (too adult-like). They told me that boys are just slower in these things. Parents of typical kids said things like, "oh, mine was just like that at that age", when they really had no idea what daily life was like for us. Even now, years after the offical diagnosis, some family members refuse to understand it and think DS's difficulties are a bad reflection on us as parents. It angers me and is why I limit interaction with many of our relatives.

Personally, I think you should do everything you can to encourage this child's parents to get an eval. But in the end, they are the only ones who can follow through with that.

There are things you can do, if you want to choose to continuing watching your nephew. But that may mean changing your methods of communication and discipline as well as altering the types of activities you do and the places you go. Whether or not you have the time and energy to do that is a decision you and your DH will have to make together.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Oh gosh.

I'm just so sorry that you are facing this.









No advice here. I have no idea what I'd do but I do really respect you for taking on what you have thus far.


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## WindyCityMom (Aug 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lollybrat* 
In all honesty, a lot of how you describe your nephew sounds a lot like my son at that age. My son was diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) just after his 3rd birthday. So I think you are right to be concerned.

I heard it all too. Relatives said that DS's speech problems were due to the way I talked to him (too adult-like). They told me that boys are just slower in these things. Parents of typical kids said things like, "oh, mine was just like that at that age", when they really had no idea what daily life was like for us. Even now, years after the offical diagnosis, some family members refuse to understand it and think DS's difficulties are a bad reflection on us as parents. It angers me and is why I limit interaction with many of our relatives.

Personally, I think you should do everything you can to encourage this child's parents to get an eval. But in the end, they are the only ones who can follow through with that.

There are things you can do, if you want to choose to continuing watching your nephew. But that may mean changing your methods of communication and discipline as well as altering the types of activities you do and the places you go. Whether or not you have the time and energy to do that is a decision you and your DH will have to make together.

Oh thank you for this! I just don't know how to communicate to him, kwim? I don't want to go as far as to say he might have autism or other SN, because I don't exactly know that territory, kwim? I'd feel strange posting on the SN board because I don't have a diagnosis for him, you know? What if it's nothing?

*I* am not ashamed of my nephew. I understand kids are different- my post is not about his differences, it's about how to deal with them and help him (really whether to to so). I really want to continue caring for him- I want to be a positive figure in his life. I want him to have someone to count on when he is older, because I know that his current support system is flawed.

My DH told me that his aunt was like this with her first daughter (now 13yo). He said that she was always partying, and would always bring her daughter along to the clubs and such. Her husband is a musician and they live the life of drugs, alcohol, etc. (though I don't think she participates.. they're just around it) If her daughter wasn't brought along to the clubs, she was left home with her grandma for days at a time. Currently the 13yo spends her free time partying, drinking, smoking, hanging out with gang affiliated people.. her mother knows this and only allows her to go if my SIL (16yo) goes along so they can keep eachother safe. (My MIL has the same rationale about the situation). Not "all star" parents imo.

DHs family isn't the most attentive family. I truly don't understand their rationale for many things and many more things strike me as completely bizarre. I dont fully blame them for DN but I wish theyd open their eyes to the sweet little boy who needs help, love, and someone to be there for him when he needs it most.


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## Lollybrat (Sep 18, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WindyCityMom* 
Oh thank you for this! I just don't know how to communicate to him, kwim? I don't want to go as far as to say he might have autism or other SN, because I don't exactly know that territory, kwim? I'd feel strange posting on the SN board because I don't have a diagnosis for him, you know? What if it's nothing?

I know what you mean. I am certainly not saying that your nephew has autism (or anything else), just that you describe some things that are very concerning in that regard. That's why he really need to have a full eval done.

Right now it sounds like his mean forms of communication are screaming, acting out, and physical aggression. Obviously these are not acceptable. But no one has provided him other tools to communicate, so he must be a very frustrated litttle boy. Even if he does not have a SN and is just delayed, you can still draw upon methods that are used with children who do have autism or communication disorders. They can still be helpful.

One idea is to try introducing some signs. Another is to try a very basic picture communication system. Start with pictures for a few objects (photos or cut out from magazines) and glue them to index cards. Teach him to give you the card for the object he wants. For either signs or pictures, ues favorite toys or snacks as a good start. If he is able to imitate actions, you can use your DD to demonstrate what he shoudl do. If he is not able to imitate, you will need to hand-over-hand teach him. It may take a while for him to catch on.

If he is having a hard time processing verbal language, you will need to break it down for him. Choose one langauge (English or Spanish) and use it with him consistatntly. Be prepared to state things simply and repeat them. You may need to teach him how to follow simple one-step commands by gently walking him through the action while repeating the words.

It's a daunting task to try to teach language in this way and it takes a lot of time and energy. And to be honest, I can't say how effective these methods will be if they are not reinforced at home.


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## EarthMamaToBe (Feb 19, 2008)

I think your DH needs to grow up.


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## Zan&Zav (Nov 25, 2006)

Lollybrat said:


> Even if he does not have a SN and is just delayed, you can still draw upon methods that are used with children who do have autism or communication disorders. They can still be helpful.
> 
> This, i have a 4 year old with autism and a 6 year old who is NT (so far) and the tools I have learned for the younger have been so valuable with the older. The older is currently being screened for aspergers, but I also use these tools with the other children I care for. They work


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EarthMamaToBe* 
I think your DH needs to grow up.

I honestly don't get the hostile responses toward the OP's husband. I'm not saying I agree with his stated rationale for not wanting to take care of this child anymore, but don't the people who are actually in the OP's immediate family have any say about how their time as a family is spent?

I mean, if your child felt sorry for one of her friends, or even a cousin, who was in a bad home situation, and was always wanting to bring this child along to stay at your house and go on family outings -- but you felt this child was negatively affecting your family-time and your family dynamics, wouldn't you have a right to draw the line on how much time this other child spent in your home and with your family?

I'm guessing that if the husband weren't using "embarrassment" as his reason for not wanting to include the other child, those of you who are criticizing might be more sympathetic? Maybe you're not so much thinking it's wrong for him to want it to be just the family -- you just don't like his reasoning?

It IS possible that his reasoning goes deeper than what he's actually said. People don't always self-examine enough to even understand _themselves_ why they feel the way they do about certain things. I really recommend that the OP take some time to talk with her husband and ask him whether this is "just" about embarrassment -- or if he has some other reasons for feeling like this is not a good situation for their family.

I really don't think it's ever a good idea to just ignore the feelings of those in our immediate families in order to go on a mission to help others, no matter how needy those others are.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I honestly don't get the hostile responses toward the OP's husband. I'm not saying I agree with his stated rationale for not wanting to take care of this child anymore, but don't the people who are actually in the OP's immediate family have any say about how their time as a family is spent?

I agree with this.

The OPer's first obligation is to her own kids, and to herself and her spouse. Not to other people's children.

I see red flags all over the place for the child (I also have a child on the spectrum) but I couldn't try to *fix* a child who wasn't getting help else where. It's OK to set boundaries in a family, and a married couple need to figure out what will work for them.

I think that you need to be realistic about what you can and cannot do for your nephew, and find a way to make peace with that.


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I honestly don't get the hostile responses toward the OP's husband. I'm not saying I agree with his stated rationale for not wanting to take care of this child anymore, but don't the people who are actually in the OP's immediate family have any say about how their time as a family is spent?

I mean, if your child felt sorry for one of her friends, or even a cousin, who was in a bad home situation, and was always wanting to bring this child along to stay at your house and go on family outings -- but you felt this child was negatively affecting your family-time and your family dynamics, wouldn't you have a right to draw the line on how much time this other child spent in your home and with your family?

I'm guessing that if the husband weren't using "embarrassment" as his reason for not wanting to include the other child, those of you who are criticizing might be more sympathetic? Maybe you're not so much thinking it's wrong for him to want it to be just the family -- you just don't like his reasoning?

It IS possible that his reasoning goes deeper than what he's actually said. People don't always self-examine enough to even understand _themselves_ why they feel the way they do about certain things. I really recommend that the OP take some time to talk with her husband and ask him whether this is "just" about embarrassment -- or if he has some other reasons for feeling like this is not a good situation for their family.

I really don't think it's ever a good idea to just ignore the feelings of those in our immediate families in order to go on a mission to help others, no matter how needy those others are.

I think his rational, as stated, is really immature, and unkind; I suspect that is why people are saying he needs to grow up. Most said that if there are other reasons that he is not giving, that is a different story. In that case, he needs to express that. Husbands sometimes need to be told to grow up, just like the rest of us.

I also don't think that there is no obligation in these kinds of situations. We have a human obligation, here there is a family obligation, and also, I think, an obligation because there is love. These things bring responsibilities, even if they cause stress. Yes, it can be hard for other kids, but that is how they learn about compassion and also duty.

Now, there is a point where one has to weigh obligations to one's own family, and that can really only be done by the people in the situation, but to say there are no obligations, as some have, is totally wrong IMO.


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## arihillfarm (Nov 1, 2007)

I didn't read all of the the responses, but wanted to say that speech delays are common in children from bilingual homes. They are processing two languages and while they often understand both languages, speaking them comes later than for kids learning only one. I was one of those kids. My mother only spoke German to me and my father spoke English. Needless to say, my English took a long time to develop as I was not around him as much (my mom was home with me until I started kindergarten) and growing up in Georgia not too many other people including my father's family, spoke or understood German. There were quite a few years where communicating with certain adults in my life was frustrating when I trying to find the right English words.

-Astrid


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bluegoat* 
Now, there is a point where one has to weigh obligations to one's own family, and that can really only be done by the people in the situation, but to say there are no obligations, as some have, is totally wrong IMO.

I guess I didn't see where anyone was saying that human beings don't have any obligations to help those outside their immediate families. I just honestly think that the OP and her husband need to get together and determine what their obligations are in this case.

True, if the OP's husband has valid reasons for thinking that they need to pull back a bit and focus on their own family more, then he needs to express these feelings.

The OP herself seems to be seeing the current situation as a bit of a drain. I must admit, I'd find it near impossible to do all she's doing if I didn't have a supportive husband.

It just makes sense for the two of them to talk more about this and reach a point where they can agree on a level of involvement that's liveable for both of them.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I honestly don't get the hostile responses toward the OP's husband. I'm not saying I agree with his stated rationale for not wanting to take care of this child anymore, but don't the people who are actually in the OP's immediate family have any say about how their time as a family is spent?

I mean, if your child felt sorry for one of her friends, or even a cousin, who was in a bad home situation, and was always wanting to bring this child along to stay at your house and go on family outings -- but you felt this child was negatively affecting your family-time and your family dynamics, wouldn't you have a right to draw the line on how much time this other child spent in your home and with your family?

I'm guessing that if the husband weren't using "embarrassment" as his reason for not wanting to include the other child, those of you who are criticizing might be more sympathetic?


"I'd like to have more time bonding as a family" is way different than "I don't want to be _seen in public_ with _that kid_ because people will think he's ours."

If the OP is planning more kids with this man, this is _concerning_. Because there are no guarantees in this world, and just because your first child is rational and verbally advanced doesn't mean the next one will be. And AP and GD and natural parenting do not prevent a couple from having a high needs child with verbal delays or sensory issues that trigger tantrums and physical outbursts.

And if he feels worried that people might think his _nephew_ is his kid when the boy acts up, how much worse could he feel -- and express in front of the child -- if it was not his nephew, but his son or daughter, who he could not disavow when the tantrums started? That level of personalizing the behavior of a toddler is the kind of thinking that often leads to people resorting to overly harsh discipline.

It's not that he doesn't want to spend more time with the boy that's concerning. It's his rationale for doing so. He's an _adult_ and is refusing to be seen in public with a toddler because it's "embarassing."


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

It seems possible that part of the embarrassment could be due to the fact that his shoes don't fit and his clothes are inappropriate for the weather.

I think it might embarrass me if it looked like I was properly caring for one or two of my children, and then neglecting one. I'm not saying it "should" embarrass me -- I'm just acknowledging that I'm weird like that.

I also have sometimes gone without a coat when I felt chilly because one of my dd's didn't feel a need to wear her coat, and I didn't want to look to others like I was taking care of my own need for warmth and then neglecting my child.

I know, it's silly, but I imagine we're all silly in _some_ area.

Of course, as someone else mentioned, the OP could buy shoes, and I imagine she could buy clothes, too, for DN to wear when he is out with them.


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## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

If you feel you can continue to care for dn I would say do so.

Our dn has been a VERY difficult child over the years (he's now 11 & much easier to be around) & we frequently took him for weekends. Yes, people assumed I was his mother & gave me some awful looks due to his atrocious behaviour.

But here is now dh & I look at it. By being an influential force in our dn life we may be able to give him some of the positives he needs & isn't getting elsewhere. But more importantly we want him to know we love him & if he ever needs us we'll be here for him despite his behaviour (in his case his parents have not been so stable & we have doubts about their abilities/committments).


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## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

I think you need to stop diagnosing your dn, you have no idea if he has actual delays, you are speculating and have no medical basis to make such claims. There is a huge difference between an almost 3 year old girl and a just turned two year old boy. Boys are different and typically development language later than girls. I think your dn sounds like a typical high energy boy, testing limits and, well, acting like a two year old. It is clear that you feel you have superior parenting skills to most, but it is not up to you to "save" everyone's children. If you can't handle your dn, don't keep him anymore but don't make unfounded assumptions about his development and diagnose him with special needs.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

Pardon me if this has already been stated but maybe your DN's issues stem from the fact that it seems as if he has been neglected somewhat?

From what you have written, it does not seem like he has gotten the attention needed to thrive and develop properly in the first place. Poor kid.


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## WindyCityMom (Aug 17, 2009)

Cycle, I don't feel that I'm diagnosing him- I know that I have no real footing in the world of special needs and I addressed that in a previous post. I'm (and others are also) just saying that it is a possiblity that I need to look at. I know how kids with special needs are treated (not treated) in our family so it is something important for me to look at.

Latte_Mama- Yes, I do think that some of his issues may stem from emotional neglect and lack of attention given towards him. That is not to say that he doesn't have some sort of special need that would have been there regardless of his upbringing, but I do think that the way he is treated contributes to this as well.

I spoke with my DH about why he feels the way he does. He clarified and told me that it's embarrassing that we don't know how to deal with dn or redirect him in the proper way. It seems that no matter what we do DN does not stop the behavior, so he feels that others look at us as people who let our kids do "whatever". He says that he just wishes we could find a way to help DN, or redirect him, etc. When I said that he was similar to my 9 month old, I meant emotionally. We don't really know how to deal with that.. if my 9 month old is angry or frustrated for whatever reason, she cries and yells, because that's how she communicates. DN does the same. Unlike my daughter, I can't just scoop DN up and divert his attention or nurse him.

DH also told me that DN is always dressed inappropriately (for the weather, sizes) and he really doesn't want other people thinking that he puts style over comfort for his kids. Sure, we could go buy DN new clothes, but we're broke and I don't feel that it's right for us to re-dress someone else's child all the time, kwim? I'd be angry if someone did it to my kids, but then again I don't dress my kids inappropriately, yk?

So DH says it's not DN, it's our lack of experience with the situation.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WindyCityMom* 
He clarified and told me that it's embarrassing that we don't know how to deal with dn or redirect him in the proper way.

raising a sn child is tough, but when it is your own kid you can work with experts, try things, rule things out, and at least have some sense that everything is being done that can be. At least when others look at you funny, you know that it is about THEM and not about you as a parent.

The situation with your dn is really different from that. The child isn't being taken care of, dressed appropriately, or having his needs dealt with. So when other people look at you funny, you know that they are right, he is being neglected.

I can really see why your DH feels the way he does, and I'm the mom of the "The Weird Kid."


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## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Latte Mama* 
Pardon me if this has already been stated but maybe your DN's issues stem from the fact that it seems as if he has been neglected somewhat?

From what you have written, it does not seem like he has gotten the attention needed to thrive and develop properly in the first place. Poor kid.

Am I the only one who is very uncomfortable speculating that this kid is neglected by his parents? It does not sound like he is neglected, it sounds like the OP doesn't like or agree with how he is being parented but that does not mean he is neglected. Is he going hungry? Are they beating him or abusing him in some way? Are they withholding affection from him? Are they not getting him proper treatment when he is sick? I think this is yet another example of judging another person's parenting.

ETA, your husband being embarrassed to the point of not wanting your DN to go out with you? What happens when its one of your own kids? I know everything is perfect now but you have no idea what the future holds for your kids or future kids. God forbid you ever have a rowdy boy or a child with special needs.


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cycle* 
Am I the only one who is very uncomfortable speculating that this kid is neglected by his parents? It does not sound like he is neglected, it sounds like the OP doesn't like or agree with how he is being parented but that does not mean he is neglected. Is he going hungry? Are they beating him or abusing him in some way? Are they withholding affection from him? Are they not getting him proper treatment when he is sick? I think this is yet another example of judging another person's parenting.

ETA, your husband being embarrassed to the point of not wanting your DN to go out with you? What happens when its one of your own kids? I know everything is perfect now but you have no idea what the future holds for your kids or future kids. God forbid you ever have a rowdy boy or a child with special needs.

Well, it sounds to me that they are not giving him affection or attention, are possibly not getting him proper medical care, and aren't paying attention to his personal care. A baby that spends all day locked into a car seat sounds neglected to me.


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## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bluegoat* 
Well, it sounds to me that they are not giving him affection or attention, are possibly not getting him proper medical care, and aren't paying attention to his personal care. A baby that spends all day locked into a car seat sounds neglected to me.

The OP has no idea what goes on in his home, this is all speculation and judgment. If the child is being abused or neglected the answer is not to come to MDC and talk about. Report them if he is really being neglected. He is two years old, I highly doubt he is spending all day in a car seat and you have no idea if he is not getting medical care or personal care.


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cycle* 
The OP has no idea what goes on in his home, this is all speculation and judgment. If the child is being abused or neglected the answer is not to come to MDC and talk about. Report them if he is really being neglected. He is two years old, I highly doubt he is spending all day in a car seat and you have no idea if he is not getting medical care or personal care.

Have you read all the posts by the OP?


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## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bluegoat* 
Have you read all the posts by the OP?

Of course. As I said, she has no idea what goes on in his house, she is making a lot of judgmental assumptions because she does not agree with their parenting. If I am wrong and her dn is being neglected and is in danger then coming her to talk about it is not the way to help him. You seriously don't see the judgments in her posts?


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

As far as her husband being embarrassed. I've been embarrassed by other people's kids. I have two daycare sisters, and I have bought clothes to keep here in case we go somewhere. I can dress them in those clothes instead of taking them out in what they come over wearing.

I had a daycare boy many years ago that always had a weepy eye. I was afraid that people would think he was mine, and I just didn't care that he had pink eye. (it wasn't even pink eye) I wanted to make him a T-shirt that said "YES, my mom knows I have a goopy eye."

I had another boy who looked JUST like a very, beautiful girl. People would say to me "Oh, she went in the men's room" , or "Oh, she lost one of her earrings". I was actually more embarrassed FOR him than of him, but I still felt a little twinge.

I can totally imagine feeling embarrassed if people think I have no way to deal with my own son when he's having a meltdown.


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cycle* 
Of course. As I said, she has no idea what goes on in his house, she is making a lot of judgmental assumptions because she does not agree with their parenting. If I am wrong and her dn is being neglected and is in danger then coming her to talk about it is not the way to help him. You seriously don't see the judgments in her posts?

Assuming the OP isn't just lying for some bizarre reason, no, I don't think she is making assumptions. Leaving a baby alone all day with someone busy drinking and ignoring the baby was the kind of thing she described. I dd not get the impression she was assuming that was happening - it sounds like she is involved in her nephews daily life. And yes, I judge the parenting of someone who does things like she described.

There is always a line between bad parenting, neglect, and criminal neglect, and it doesn't sound like this is the latter - which makes involving the authorities difficult or non-productive. But it does sound like one of the former, and I understand why she feels like she wants to do something, and struggles with her role.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

There are red flags all over the place in her description of him. If it were her own child and she were asking what to do, I'd suggest an eval. I don't hear any judgment coming from the OP, just concern and caring.

I really feel for her -- it's a tough situation. The reality is that there isn't much she or her DH can do.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

OP, I can understand not feeling like it's right to redress someone else's child when he is with you. I'm just saying that I feel your dilemma, because I'm woman enough to acknowledge that it would embarrass me to have onlookers thinking that I took proper care of my two daughters and then dressed my son in ill-fitting shoes and inappropriate clothing.









I'm sure that you and your dh will reach some sort of workable solution, and I'm very glad that he's clarified what he meant when he said he was embarrassed. I'd suspected it went a little deeper than what he'd said originally.









I speak here as a mama who, years before when I took my young niece to a park, felt embarrassed when she was playing with some other kids near her age and they were all clearly in regular underwear and speaking clearly, while her pullup was sticking up above her waist-band and she was talking baby-talk.

I'm ashamed to admit here that I actually volunteered the information to the other moms that "She's not my daughter, she's my niece" and I'm sure they were, like, what do we care?

Now that I'm a mother, and understand how normal it is for kids to have these wide variations in development, I realize how silly it was for me to be embarrassed to be seen with a small child in a pullup.

I wasn't the least bit embarrassed when my oldest decided that she preferred wearing diapers until she was almost 4 1/2. I honestly didn't care if others thought I was crazy to allow it. There is just a huge difference between mothering our own children and trying to mother someone else's.

I mean, I suppose some folks who'd seen me all those years ago feeling "embarrassed" might have said something along the lines of, "I hope she never has children of her own, and, if she does, I feel so sorry for those kids" -- but I did learn and grow and I think we all can. I think the first step is being honest about our feelings and working through them. Sometimes you have to name it to deal with it.


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## swd12422 (Nov 9, 2007)

I haven't read the entire thread yet, but between the OP here and your thread about the shoes, I'd say you almost have an obligation to keep caring for him. (Of course, that is subjective, and judgmental, and totally up to you to do what is right for your family. I say that b/c *I* would feel obligated... I don't mean to say you HAVE to, as I'm sure there are lots of other details that may make it not so clear.)

Anyway, I think it would be great for him to have you in his life, as you and DH and DD seem to be the only family he has with good heads on your shoulders. Do you know for sure if his delays are due to whatever parenting practices/lack thereof he has been exposed to or to congenital conditions? If it's just bad parenting, I wouldn't be letting him "get away" with behavior that's not acceptable for your own kid. No, you can't have the same expectations for him as they are two different people, but you can set limits and start teaching him no hitting, etc. just as he doesn't talk, but DD is teaching him words.

Someone has to advocate for this boy. It would be a shame to let him languish in a neglectful/uninvolved/however you want to characterize it environment just b/c some stranger might think you're a bad parent when he has a public meltdown. Stay with him, watch him learn and grow, and the heck with what strangers say/think.


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## ErinYay (Aug 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 

If the OP is planning more kids with this man, this is _concerning_. Because there are no guarantees in this world, and just because your first child is rational and verbally advanced doesn't mean the next one will be. And AP and GD and natural parenting do not prevent a couple from having a high needs child with verbal delays or sensory issues that trigger tantrums and physical outbursts.

Oh, come on.

Unless they magically birth a 2-year-old with special needs who has been raised without compassion and structure, it's not a valid issue, and it's pretty unkind to suggest he's a bad father to his own potential-future-offspring because he's fed up dealing with someone else's kid..


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## WindyCityMom (Aug 17, 2009)

Totally.

Now, about the concern of abuse/neglect... YES he was left with an old man drinking much of the time. This all went on upstairs from me, and I had just gone back to work. I had my MIL, FIL, SIL, and DH caring for my DD (whoever was available). No one else took charge to care for my DN, because he needed "time with his grandparents". They love him, but cannot adequately care for him. When DN was younger he was rarely bathed, it was bad, I did speak to the parents and other family members, and if DN came to visit us we'd seriously sneak him a bath. I can get away without bathing my youngest for a few days, because she's a fairly clean kiddo and isn't sweaty and gets dry skin with too much bathing. My DN was a very sweaty baby, and being left alone in a car seat with a bottle of formula propped up and left to dribble all over you doesn't exactly = clean. Not sure if it was in this thread or the last that I mentioned that DH and I had to buy him clothes because his clothing wasn't being changed for days. Things are better in that regard now, but the clothes don't fit and he isn't dressed for the weather. He is bathed regularly for the most part, although he does come to us occasionally and feel "greasy" (and you can tell the difference between a freshly bathed DN and a not so freshly bathed DN). I don't want (and didn't want) to get authorities involved because I believe it's a "The devil you know is better than the devil you don't" scenario. If we can advocate for him, hopefully things can and will get better for him.

We have decided to continue caring for him, and I have decided that I'll go upstairs and grit my teeth with my MIL and GMIL (toxic people that I'm trying to stay away from, mostly just MIL) and let DD spend time with DN. Maybe if I'm there more, I'll be able to help him out more. It just breaks my heart when he inevitably misbehaves and the "person in charge" yells at him and hits him. My husband told me that we need to read up on ways to deal with DNs agression, violence, meltdowns, etc. as well as find ways to engage him because he's a lot different than my DD

Right now, I'm spending money I don't have on him- I have to buy him a car seat for when he's with us, because his mom refuses to buy him a new one and refuses to get here a little early on the days he goes to gymnastics so that I can uninstall his current one (which she has no idea how to uninstall- and it takes awhile because of the placement of their tether anchor). They were like "Oh, well I guess he can't go to gymnastics". I'm not going to let my dn be deprived of that experience. I have to buy him clothing when he's not properly dressed, also.

I think it's unfair to say that I'm JUST judging (and unfairly doing so at that). Wouldn't you judge in this situation? To parents who go and party and leave their son all the time with people who cannot adequately care for him? Would you leave your child with people who were drunk and not "all there" to go and party? Would you take him with you to be around drugs and alcohol, instead? My DN is deprived of emotional attention, and it is extremely apparent.

I have been talking with another family member about this (married into the family, she;s my MILs SIL) and she has two sons with sensory-seeking SPD. She thinks that my DN is sensory seeking, based on what she is dealing with when it comes to her two sons. Without an EI eval, though, it's impossible to know for sure. She rarely comes around our house because of the toxic people here, but she wants me to keep her posted. We might set up a play date with her to see if she knows how to talk to DN and work with him.. she might be able to give me some pointers.

Right now I am looking for ideas and tools on how to help my DN, how to redirect him, how to even get his attention (one of our biggest issues is that he ignores you, and my DD has taken to ignoring us because she doesn't understand it) and how to foster his development in a healthy way.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

When you move (







: that it ends up being sooner than you hope), if you were willing to take it on, I bet you could get your nephew placed with you for fostering if you did report things.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cycle* 
Of course. As I said, she has no idea what goes on in his house, she is making a lot of judgmental assumptions because she does not agree with their parenting. If I am wrong and her dn is being neglected and is in danger then coming her to talk about it is not the way to help him. You seriously don't see the judgments in her posts?

You know, I feel the OP comes across as judgmental, but also just reading the facts, this child does seem in to be in a rather unsupportive home environment (to say the least). To suggest that she's just judging them... I dunno. Seems like she's trying to help.

Quote:

it's pretty unkind to suggest he's a bad father to his own potential-future-offspring because he's fed up dealing with someone else's kid..
No kidding. I really dislike taking care of other people's children for long periods of time but I do love my children. I would not want to be a carer, full-time, for a special needs child. Sorry, not my calling. But if I had one I know I would step up and do what needed to be done, out of love.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
No kidding. I really dislike taking care of other people's children for long periods of time but I do love my children. I would not want to be a carer, full-time, for a special needs child. Sorry, not my calling. But if I had one I know I would step up and do what needed to be done, out of love.

Plus it's one thing to care for your own child with special needs whom you've loved from birth (or from when you finally got to adopt them) who has clothes that fit and has gotten a reasonable amount of bathing, and going out and about with someone else's child when they obviously need to bathe and have too small clothes and are complaining about their shoes which are visibly making it harder for them to walk. In one case, you look a parent doing their best with a child they love, in the other you look like a parent neglecting a kid who already has enough troubles in life.

If I were the OP and/or her dh, I would've been saying stuff AGES ago like "uh oh, DN, your coat's too small, we better tell your mommy" or "DD, can you please hold Cousin DN's hand?" Stuff to make it obvious it wasn't my fault the kid didn't look cared for.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ErinYay* 
Oh, come on.

Unless they magically birth a 2-year-old with special needs who has been raised without compassion and structure, it's not a valid issue, and it's pretty unkind to suggest he's a bad father to his own potential-future-offspring because he's fed up dealing with someone else's kid..

Compassion and structure don't prevent sensory processing issues.

THey don't prevent all meltdowns. They don't prevent frustration hitting or biting. They don't prevent hating having your hair washed, brushed, or cut. They don't prevent hating clothes that are tight around the waist, or clothes with buttons, or long sleeves (even in January), or short sleeves (even in August). They don't prevent hating having your nose blown so much that you pitch a 30-minute fit when you see a tissue. They don't prevent hating having your shoes tied, or your face washed, or having certain things touch your hands.

So yeah. Compassion and structure go a long way, but I recommend that every parent -- even the most attached and compassionate -- hold off on any self-congratulatory "My kids will never be like that because I will raise them right" back-patting until they are done having kids. Because the only _realistic_ way you can be sure your kids won't be the ones with the wild, uncombed hair, having the huge public meltdown? Is to be done having more kids.


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## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
You know, I feel the OP comes across as judgmental, but also just reading the facts, this child does seem in to be in a rather unsupportive home environment (to say the least). To suggest that she's just judging them... I dunno. Seems like she's trying to help.

No kidding. I really dislike taking care of other people's children for long periods of time but I do love my children. I would not want to be a carer, full-time, for a special needs child. Sorry, not my calling. But if I had one I know I would step up and do what needed to be done, out of love.

If a baby was being cared for by someone who was drunk right upstairs from me and she knew about as she says she did, I would do something about it, not come here and gossip about it. If I felt ing that the baby was continually be neglected by everyone in the family, aside from OP, and he is showing signs of that neglect, I would do something about it. I am not sure we are getting a clear account of what is actually going on, I think the OP may be assuming a lot and embellishing a bit based on being judgmental of her dn's parents, as she has clearly said she is.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I think you should keep caring for him. Is his delay in language or in his abilities? Kids who are spoken to in two languages often have a delay at first because they have to process the language there is more processing and decision making required. Once they get the hang of both languages there are many benefits and you can't tell there ever was a delay. It may be that he is just having a hard time processing the language, especially if there is a lot more language than he is used to hearing at home or from other people. I think you should try keeping your words redirection and talk simple and to the point without extra stuff that he has to process. Many kids that age who speak only one language don't process all of the rambling adults do and they are off again quickly if you aren't to the point so I really don't think that signals anything either.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cycle* 
If a baby was being cared for by someone who was drunk right upstairs from me and she knew about as she says she did, I would do something about it, not come here and gossip about it. If I felt ing that the baby was continually be neglected by everyone in the family, aside from OP, and he is showing signs of that neglect, I would do something about it. I am not sure we are getting a clear account of what is actually going on, I think the OP may be assuming a lot and embellishing a bit based on being judgmental of her dn's parents, as she has clearly said she is.

OP is living in her IL's basement (illegal apartment, still paying rent). Her MIL does stuff like knock on her window at 2am, and there are other major boundary issues.

I think the OP should definitely call, but should do it after getting her own place. Which is in the works and last I read due to happen within the year.


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## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
OP is living in her IL's basement (illegal apartment, still paying rent). Her MIL does stuff like knock on her window at 2am, and there are other major boundary issues.

I think the OP should definitely call, but should do it after getting her own place. Which is in the works and last I read due to happen within the year.

IMO a neglected child, as OP describes her dn is, is more important than what is going on with the adults in the family. So the OP needs to protect herself and not make waves at the expense of a child that she so adamantly believes is being neglected? Something is wrong with that situation.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

I get that for some people calling CPS is worse than leaving a child to be abused, but I'll never understand that.

If the OP refuses to call CPS for extreme neglect because she doesn't want to make waves or endanger her own situation, then I think it's hardly fair to deflect that onto the husband for making a (perhaps not the most kindly phrased) comment about his frustration and worry about appearing in public with a neglected, unkempt child.

To me, to be really blunt, it's the former that is FAR more offensive than the latter.

If you refuse to take the next step in getting a child help, when by your own admission, things are not and will not improve--then to me you lose your moral license to get huffy over people worrying about appearances.


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## [email protected] (Sep 7, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cycle* 
I think you need to stop diagnosing your dn, you have no idea if he has actual delays, you are speculating and have no medical basis to make such claims. There is a huge difference between an almost 3 year old girl and a just turned two year old boy. Boys are different and typically development language later than girls. I think your dn sounds like a typical high energy boy, testing limits and, well, acting like a two year old. It is clear that you feel you have superior parenting skills to most, but it is not up to you to "save" everyone's children. If you can't handle your dn, don't keep him anymore but don't make unfounded assumptions about his development and diagnose him with special needs.

I agree about the gender and age differences, but the lack of eye contact is concerning. Also, she's around him a lot & probably has just given us a snapshot description of this kid. Her gut is telling her that something is wrong here.


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## [email protected] (Sep 7, 2010)

Just wanted to add that it sounds like he is a child of abuse and neglect. I'm wondering if you are afraid to report it b/c this would alienate yourself from this family & child, and ultimately social services may not really intervene. You are in a tough situation. Any deficits this kid is facing could be related to his environment. Being kept in a car seat all day w/ a drunk grandfather could definitely lead to sensory processing issues.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cycle* 
If a baby was being cared for by someone who was drunk right upstairs from me and she knew about as she says she did, I would do something about it, not come here and gossip about it. If I felt ing that the baby was continually be neglected by everyone in the family, aside from OP, and he is showing signs of that neglect, I would do something about it. I am not sure we are getting a clear account of what is actually going on, I think the OP may be assuming a lot and embellishing a bit based on being judgmental of her dn's parents, as she has clearly said she is.

I think she's clearly stated... the devil she knows.


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## DariusMom (May 29, 2005)

I think there's just a whole lotta' drama involved in the whole DN saga.


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

I don't think CPS could/would do anything here - the inappropriate care by the grandfather would have been something they might have been interested in, but that's not going on anymore. There are lots of kids who are neglected and suffer from it, but not to a degree that it warrants some kind of intervention by authorities.

OP, I think your plan is a good one.


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *[email protected]* 
Just wanted to add that it sounds like he is a child of abuse and neglect. I'm wondering if you are afraid to report it b/c this would alienate yourself from this family & child, and ultimately social services may not really intervene. You are in a tough situation. Any deficits this kid is facing could be related to his environment. Being kept in a car seat all day w/ a drunk grandfather could definitely lead to sensory processing issues.

This. OP does seem to be in a tough situation. If she were to report than she could potentially face being put out of her home (if MIL is vengeful) and she has to think about her own kids. Also, child services very well may not intervene as this sounds like one of those cases where there are a lot of blurry lines (for them not for me). Child services is usually overworked with cases of kids that are physically abused, starved,etc. Would they rush in to try and help someone who is not dressing their child properly and leaving him with extended family?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Bluegoat* 
I don't think CPS could/would do anything here - the inappropriate care by the grandfather would have been something they might have been interested in, but that's not going on anymore. There are lots of kids who are neglected and suffer from it, but not to a degree that it warrants some kind of intervention by authorities.

OP, I think your plan is a good one.

And this. All of us cringe at some of the things this baby has been through but in reality it is a small blip on the screen for child services.


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## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pregnant[email protected]* 
I agree about the gender and age differences, but the lack of eye contact is concerning. Also, she's around him a lot & probably has just given us a snapshot description of this kid. Her gut is telling her that something is wrong here.

Based on previous posts by the OP I don't think she is clear on what her gut is telling her. She seems to have a vivid imagination and IMO tends to exaggerate things and jump to the worst and most judgmental assumption.

If this abuse/neglect was going on for real, as a parent I would not hesitate to do something about it by calling CPS. I would also not stay in an apartment below people who are supposedly abusive, harassing and manipulative. They are paying rent, so move and go pay rent somewhere else where you can live in peace. I'm sure there will be a million excuses why that can't happen.


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## cycle (Nov 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 
OP is living in her IL's basement (illegal apartment, still paying rent). Her MIL does stuff like knock on her window at 2am, and there are other major boundary issues.

I think the OP should definitely call, but should do it after getting her own place. Which is in the works and last I read due to happen within the year.


Again, move if the situation is as bad as it is being described. Pay rent somewhere else. If the child is being abused, it seems it went from neglect to abuse somewhere in this thread, waiting a year to do something is irresponsible and neglectful in its own right. The OP also thinks her neighbor girls are being sexually abused, because they kissed her baby too much. I think the lens through which she is viewing every other parent is very clouded by youth and judgment.


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## mbhf (Jan 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cycle* 
Again, move if the situation is as bad as it is being described. Pay rent somewhere else. If the child is being abused, it seems it went from neglect to abuse somewhere in this thread, waiting a year to do something is irresponsible and neglectful in its own right. The OP also thinks her neighbor girls are being sexually abused, because they kissed her baby too much. I think the lens through which she is viewing every other parent is very clouded by youth and judgment.

I agree, 100%. I have read a lot of the OPs posts and this is an ongoing theme, she's an amazing parent/person and everyone around her is just awful and she wants everyone to tell her so.

OP, I think it would be best for you to concentrate on your own children and maybe try to find a hobby. Do not buy your DN a new carseat, do not buy him clothes or shoes, put that money towards getting a place of your own for your family. If things are really as tight financially as you say and if your living situation is half as toxic/ridiculous as you say, you are doing your _own children_ a disservice by spending money on your DN and spending time with your ILs to be around your DN more.


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## WindyCityMom (Aug 17, 2009)

Oh wow. Excuse me? I cannot believe what I'm reading. I came here for support because I wasn't quite sure what I should do. I already stated that I AM going to continue caring for him (plan has changed though). I am and HAVE been afraid to call DCFS about it because I myself am in an illegal living situation that I am slowly working to get out of. My DH is still trying to get a better job, and once he does so, I will get a part time job, because I need to know his schedule and work around it. I will most likely be back in retail. I don't want to call DCFS and endanger my OWN situation. I also don't want to call DCFS and have DN taken away and put into foster care or placed with a similar family member (which might even be my MIL, because she is his Godmother). I want to work with him and whatever needs he may have and maybe open his parents eyes about it.. I want to be there to care for him more and advocate for him when he needs it. I don't think calling DCFS would resolve the situation, I think it would be harder on him.

And as far as the neighbor girl situation happened- something major happened, and I do not care to discuss it on here as I have already discussed it with the girls parents, it is an extremely sensitive issue.

Now, something huge came up between MIL and us yesterday and it turned into a huge family feud, so we're now trying to work faster at tying up all of the financial strings and getting out.

I have decided that we will bring DN to and from gymnastics only. MIL asked me to get the car seat from target and handed me the money for it on the spot. I'm not going to buy anything else for him- you all are 100% right in that I need to get my act together and get out of here. I have no business putting my own children behind another child that is not mine. It is unfortunate. If, when we leave, I see that similar thigns are happening to DN, I will not hesitate to call DCFS because I won't then be able to do anything for DN. I need to get out of the way first, because I don't want to end up in their crosshairs for living in an illegal apartment.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mbhf* 
I agree, 100%. I have read a lot of the OPs posts and this is an ongoing theme, she's an amazing parent/person and everyone around her is just awful and she wants everyone to tell her so.

OP, I think it would be best for you to concentrate on your own children and maybe try to find a hobby. Do not buy your DN a new carseat, do not buy him clothes or shoes, put that money towards getting a place of your own for your family. If things are really as tight financially as you say and if your living situation is half as toxic/ridiculous as you say, you are doing your _own children_ a disservice by spending money on your DN and spending time with your ILs to be around your DN more.

Look.

She's not going to post here about how much she loves another person's parenting because she's probably telling them to their face.

This is her CLOSE RELATIVE. Of course she cares. Jeez.

I dunno, maybe it's because improperly-fitted shoes kill me? Or because I also think that hours in a carseat in front of the TV is really borderline neglect? Or because I know what it's like to only post about the drama, without posting about the good times and good people?

I just don't see how it's supportive to say, "Either back off or call CPS, there's no in-between."

IMO there is a LOT of in-between, where you provide support and help and negotiate delicate social networks and balance your own needs and the needs of other very needy people and still care for your kids. IMO there's a lot of gray area between special needs resulting from neglect and those that could not have been avoided. It's hard to tell and she is not judging them. The age she's talking about is a HARD age because kids are all over the map in terms of development. Some are talking in full sentences, others seem more like babies, *even with great parents and even with normal or above-average intelligence*.

So it might seem like drama to you, and maybe it is a small family drama.

So what? Sometimes we really can't escape drama. Sometimes we need outside perspective. Speaking of judgmental!


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)




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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

OP --







I sure hope you can get into your own place soon!


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## COgirl19 (Dec 26, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WindyCityMom* 

I have decided that we will bring DN to and from gymnastics only. MIL asked me to get the car seat from target and handed me the money for it on the spot. I'm not going to buy anything else for him- you all are 100% right in that I need to get my act together and get out of here. I have no business putting my own children behind another child that is not mine. It is unfortunate. If, when we leave, I see that similar thigns are happening to DN, I will not hesitate to call DCFS because I won't then be able to do anything for DN. I need to get out of the way first, because I don't want to end up in their crosshairs for living in an illegal apartment.

I think this is a good plan. It sounds like you were taking care of DN at the expense of your own family (spending money you didn't have, your DD was suffering emotionally) so I think you are making a very smart move here in that respect. I can also understand not calling DCFS, and unfortunately, I doubt they would do anything anyway. I hope you can get out of this situation soon. I know times are super tough (DH has been unemployed for over a year now) so I hope you can do whatever you can to get out of there. I hope things get better for your family soon, and this little boy.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

To the OP, i just wanted to say that from the outset i was moved by the love you show to your dn. He's lucky to have you. Good luck to you and your family, and may you dn find the care that he needs.


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## WindyCityMom (Aug 17, 2009)

*sigh* I thought I was done with this thread, but there is something else that I need input on.

DN is regularly bathed, as far as I know (he only occasionally comes to us a little "greasy"). I mentioned that we had issues with him not being bathed in the past. Today, he arrived to us and it was clear that he had probably not been bathed since we'd last seen him (a week prior). DH noticed it when he was taking him out of the car seat. His fingernails had dirt caked into them (and he doesn't really go outside to play at all...my DD regularly has dirty nails that I clean nightly but she's almost always found digging in the dirt) and food (or something yellowish orangish) stuck in his cuticles, it looked old (from longer than the last meal). I wiped his hands and face with a few baby wipes and they looked like I'd been wiping a not-so clean floor with them. DN just felt dirty, and after tagging along with him at gymnastics, I could feel the grime on my own hands. The straps on his car seat's harness are now a little greasy, and it's the first time he used the new seat. There was a pretty obvious smell. I feel SO bad. We had to care for DN all day today, because GMIL had to have minor surgery and wouldn't be home, MIL took her, and no one else was home. We had errands of our own to run today, so DN was along with us. We were out all day. We met up with his mom while we were out but she was extremely rushed (had to go make dinner) and we didn't have any time to talk. But how exactly do you tell someone that their child needs to be bathed, especially when this problem has happened in the past?

In the past we weren't caring for him much, it was an every so often kind of thing. DH told them about it, and we were responded to with a "Oh he's just a sweaty kid." No. There is a huge difference between an unbathed DN and a clean DN. I'm afraid that someone at his gymnasics will call DCFS if this happens again (it's a park district- are they mandated reporters?), so I want to make sure it doesn't happen again. I would feel so awkward bathing him, just because it's not my job. I feel that it might be the right way to go, but I know that the family will be in complete denial about the non-bathing thing and tell me not to bathe him.

In retrospect, I'm wondering if I should have had DH stay in the car with DN while I took DD to gymnastics. He likely would not have known what was going on. I guess I could have even sent DH home to bathe him and bring him back, even if he did miss class. I also think I should have done this because DN came to us with a cold (why my DH didn't notice this when he got him and put him in the car, I don't know) and I feel totally irresponsible for bringing him around other kids while sick. I'm going to request that they not send him along with us while sick, but either way I still had to care for him today because no one else could.

I AM happy to report that he is picking up a ton of words and is not not hitting DD very much..(twice the whole day) I am slowly learning how to better redirect him and guide his learning.


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## WindyCityMom (Aug 17, 2009)

**I don't want to call DCFS on my own. I feel that it would cause so much chaos in our own family if anyone were to find out. We need to live here right now, we are without other options until the beginning of next year (when debt will be significantly paid down and I will have a job, hopefully).

If things worsen and things warrant an intervention by DCFS, I suppose I could speak with the gymnastics instructor and ask her if she could call for us (especially if she's a mandated reporter). She has to hold DN and help him do certain things and I'm sure that she noticed something today.


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## pianojazzgirl (Apr 6, 2006)

Just to comment on the bath thing...

In my world giving another kid (esp a young one like that) a bath while they were in my care would not be a weird thing. In fact it's happened before. I'd say something like "the kids got really grubby/muddy/messy while they were playing/eating, and we tossed them all in a bath". I've even found old clothes of one of my dc to put on a kid I was babysitting if they happened to get their clothes really dirty or wet and the parents had forgotten to leave a change.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Sometimes kids just are dirt magnets.

My nephew took two baths every single day. These baths involved large amounts of soap and shampoo, as well as quite a bit of scrubbing. Yet he was constantly sticky and sweaty and even sometimes there was an odor. DN was just a messy eater and sweated quite a bit.

I frequently skip baths with DS. It is completely unnoticeable. he is a fairly neat eater, and doesn't sweat all that much. When I pop him in the bath, it is mostly for fun and I often don't bother with soap at all.

Basically dirtiness of the child is not necessarily a reflection on how much effort the parent puts into caring for said child. My sis put in a ton of effort bathing DN, b/c it was needed, but probably had strangers thinking she was lazy about baths. I get away with putting very little effort into bathing DS, but he is always fresh and unsticky anyway and strangers probably think I put a lot more effort than I do into keeping him that way.

Since this unbathed thing is new, I would suspect that it was related to the cold. They may have old fashioned notions about not wanting to let him get chilled by being wet while he has a cold. It was how I was raised, and I was actually really surprised when DS's pediatrician recommend letting him sit in a steamy bath when he was congested (at first I thought she just meant for me to let him play on the floor in the bathroom with the doors closed and the shower running.)


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

I don't think lack of bathing to your standards is CPS worthy.


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## TCMoulton (Oct 30, 2003)

Why would he need to skip gymnastics just because he wasn't freshly bathed?


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eclipse* 
I don't think lack of bathing to your standards is CPS worthy.

And luckily enough the gymnastics instructor and other observers agreed. However, that doesn't mean that the OP was foolish to worry given the stories of CPS getting called for all sorts of frivolous reasons that are far less indicative of neglect than looking like a child hasn't had a bath for a week.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TCMoulton* 
Why would he need to skip gymnastics just because he wasn't freshly bathed?

Because of the OP's concern that his neglected appearance might make someone think he is a neglected child and call CPS. The question in her mind was "will going to gymnastics cause more trouble?" And there is a big difference between "not freshly bathed" and "didn't have a bath in a week".


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
Sometimes kids just are dirt magnets.

My nephew took two baths every single day. These baths involved large amounts of soap and shampoo, as well as quite a bit of scrubbing. Yet he was constantly sticky and sweaty and even sometimes there was an odor. DN was just a messy eater and sweated quite a bit.

I frequently skip baths with DS. It is completely unnoticeable. he is a fairly neat eater, and doesn't sweat all that much. When I pop him in the bath, it is mostly for fun and I often don't bother with soap at all.

Basically dirtiness of the child is not necessarily a reflection on how much effort the parent puts into caring for said child. My sis put in a ton of effort bathing DN, b/c it was needed, but probably had strangers thinking she was lazy about baths. I get away with putting very little effort into bathing DS, but he is always fresh and unsticky anyway and strangers probably think I put a lot more effort than I do into keeping him that way.

Since this unbathed thing is new, I would suspect that it was related to the cold. They may have old fashioned notions about not wanting to let him get chilled by being wet while he has a cold. It was how I was raised, and I was actually really surprised when DS's pediatrician recommend letting him sit in a steamy bath when he was congested (at first I thought she just meant for me to let him play on the floor in the bathroom with the doors closed and the shower running.)

Remember though, this appearance of her DN is a difference compared to how they see him on a regular basis. They've seen him freshly bathed, after not having a bath for a few days. She's comparing him to himself not to other kids.

But you're probably right about the cold thing. Which is a pity because warm baths are sooo awesome when you're snuffly.


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

I don't bathe my kid everyday, sometimes he's rather dirty. Often it is inconvenient to bathe him for some reason and we skip it (out late, activity, etc). I sent my kid to school today without having been bathed for possibly several days. He has very dirty finger nails and may even have a little egg on his face at the moment.

If this is the first week in a while that the kid is dirty I would just assume they have been busy or dn is resistant to baths for some reason and the parents didn't feel like having that battle. How many times do we see threads on MDC "my kid won't take a bath" "screams bloody murder in the bath" "afraid my neighbors will call the cops because of how much my kid freaks out at bath time" "haven't bathed in weeks, will anyone notice?"

Also, at 2 I would just give the kid a bath at my house, especially if you had him all day. That is not weird at all. I often give kids baths when we are babysitting. They cook, paint, play in the yard and they get dirty, then I throw all the kids in the bath tub, they have a blast. A resistant kid is also more likely to have fun with friends in the bath than alone.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pianojazzgirl* 
Just to comment on the bath thing...

In my world giving another kid (esp a young one like that) a bath while they were in my care would not be a weird thing. In fact it's happened before. I'd say something like "the kids got really grubby/muddy/messy while they were playing/eating, and we tossed them all in a bath". I've even found old clothes of one of my dc to put on a kid I was babysitting if they happened to get their clothes really dirty or wet and the parents had forgotten to leave a change.

Yes to this. My friend and her son only bathe two to three times a week, usually two. Her son comes over filthy sometimes and I have had him take a shower a couple times when I was able to do it without hurting his feelings. Both times his feet were so dirty, I mean really really really dirty, that I was able to use that as a way to get him in the shower. Once he is in he loved it and cleaned everything. The school district health curriculum that the nurses teach only says kids should bathe twice a week so I don't think infrequent bathing is something that CPS will do anything about. The nurses I have heard teaching the curriculum say the required line but always add that more is better.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

I agree that:

1. It's no big deal to bathe another child.
2. Some kids get dirty really fast, and really dirty. I've known them.
3. If you are concerned about calls to child services, but you are also concerned about his welfare, my thought is, this is the perfect opportunity to see what the standards of the outside world are. If they mention it, if they notice it, then you know it's not just you and your high standards (and you do have high standards, nothing wrong with that, but you need to realize that). If they don't appear to be bothered or mention it, then maybe you can stop worrying as well.


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## WindyCityMom (Aug 17, 2009)

Today DN was wearing the same clothing he wore yesterday when we came up to see him at GMIL's house (I was helping her find something- she had eye surgery yesterday). He went home with his mother and came back in the same clothing, and I know it wasn't washed because the ketchup stain from lunch was still there.

I'm just hoping that 1. He wasn't bathed because of his cold and 2. His mom was running late for work and wasn't able to do laundry and just put him in yesterday's clothing because she was in a pinch.

For the record, I don't bathe my kids every day, unless they need it. My baby isn't very dirty and when my toddler digs in the dirt she really only needs a good scrub over the sink. If I had a super sweaty child or if my child felt sticky to the touch and left some sort of residue on my hands when holding him, you'd bet I'd bathe him or her. I don't like frequent bathing- I don't shower every single day myself- every other day is more like it. So I don't feel that I have high standards in this particular matter (although I do agree with you on that, EdnaMarie).

My primary concern is that someone else will call DCFS, especially if they're mandated reporters. If the gymnastics coach feels that another parent might call, then the coach might take it into her own hands to call because not calling would be illegal on her part, and she would get in trouble. I'm worried that that might happen. I know that there are people who will call the authorities if you so much as breathe on your child the wrong way- I don't want anyone to see me with a very obviously unbathed child and figure "Oh, she doesn't care about her kids" or "Oh, she doesn't care about her son but cares for her daughters, poor thing" etc.

Like I said- I don't live in the best of situations. Suppose an oversealous social worker (or whoever comes out from DCFS) comes out and decides that my kids can't live with me because of our living arrangement. I can't have that happen- I have maybe three more months living here and we're out (Not out of the city like we'd hoped, but out of this apartment). The Emergency form from gymnastics has my address listed because I didn't have theirs handy. I need to change that just in case. (Everything else is correct with his parent's phone numbers, etc).


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Yeah, I'd definitely get the address changed so that if anyone calls, the social worker won't be showing up at your place.

As far as a child wearing the same clothes he had on the day before -- even clothes with a food stain -- is this really a big deal?

I mean, I do make sure my girls put on a clean outfit if we're going out to a public place like a restaurant, or a get-together at someone's house, but if we're just staying around the house and playing in the neighborhood, or even going to the park, I don't necessarily worry about whether they have stains on their shirts. Since my girls play really freely and will just get more dirt on them.

I do make sure my girls are clean if we go see Grandma -- but we only see her one or two times a month. If her home were like their "home away from home," as it sounds like your MIL's is for this little boy, I'd probably be more relaxed about that.

I don't know...I mean, I definitely am concerned about some of the other stuff you've mentioned, like in the other thread about the too-small shoes -- but then it seems like you're throwing in a lot of other stuff that's really not important. IMO it would be better to focus your concern on the issues that are really harmful to your DN.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mammal_mama* 
I don't know...I mean, I definitely am concerned about some of the other stuff you've mentioned, like in the other thread about the too-small shoes -- but then it seems like you're throwing in a lot of other stuff that's really not important. IMO it would be better to focus your concern on the issues that are really harmful to your DN.

I am inclined to agree. There are things you say that concern me, but I think now you're looking for a reason to be upset with your nephew's parents each time you see them. Take a step back. Breathe. You're in the thick of this situation, and I think that's making you react strongly to everything.

Two things stand out to me in your posts about your husband's family. The first is that you view yourself as trapped, but that's not true. You don't *have* to stay there. You have other options, but you have decided this option is the best. So you need to make the best of it until you move on. If being with his family is causing you so much stress, then you guys need to reconsider whether your mental health would be better if you moved out on your own, rather than being dependent on his family at the same time that you seem to think they're generally bad people.

The second thing is that I'm the one in my marriage who comes from a very dysfunctional family. We have things far worse than not bathing kids that have gone on, but I know that there is no way my husband could/would live near them. He would feel like you - constantly worried about what's happening to everyone - and upset. You and your husband need to talk about his family, their values, and your boundaries. Otherwise I see this situation only getting worse until it deteriorates, and you cannot have anything to do with his family at all anymore without there being problems.


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## WindyCityMom (Aug 17, 2009)

Thanks for the replies, I agree, there are many things that I need to consider and reconsider and discuss with my husband.

Yesterday, I saw DNs older sister and I mentioned it to him. She told me "Oh gosh, I know, but it's annoying to bathe him because he splashes water all over the place and just wants to play... he's such a troublemaker." So I'm now wondering if his sister is in charge of bathing him and just doesn't.

My husband is going to speak to his grandmother about it, and we hope that she'll get the point across to her daughter (DNs mom).

Today I am caring for my nephew, because GMIL needed the help (still recovering from surgery). I bathed him and changed his clothing into some of DDs g/n things because he was still in the clothing from the other day.

I don't know.. I mean, my daughter has and does wear the same thing twice, but if it is dirty-feeling to the touch I won't make her wear it again, you know? And if she's dirty, I bathe her.

I don't know how harmful not bathing a child is, but would you like to be dirty and not bathed for a week and in soiled clothing for a few days? (The stain is not the issue, the overall state of filth that the clothes were in from being on him for that period of time is the issue.)


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## Latte Mama (Aug 25, 2009)

Quote:

I don't know how harmful not bathing a child is, but would you like to be dirty and not bathed for a week and in soiled clothing for a few days?
This. Yea maybe not the worst thing in the world BUT if you combine it with the other things, I'd be bothered too. FWIW, I'm not some clean fanatic but my DS and I shower together every night. I don't do any less for him than I would do for myself. I wouldn't throw a shirt on myself with a nasty food stain on it from the day before so heck no wouldn't put one on my DS.

It IS uncomfortable to be dirty and unbathed after several days. The skin starts getting itchy and the OP said it's a sweaty kid too. If you add into the mix a kid that is not PL'd, well it makes me want to scratch just thinking about it. I'm human and have certainly skipped a day of showering but I can feel the difference.

IMO, the mother of the DN is not treating him like a human being with wants and needs.
Does she work and that is why everyone else is always watching her kid?
Does she spend a significant amount of time with the child?


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## marinak1977 (Feb 24, 2009)

OP







From what I can gather from your posts the little boy sounds neglected to me.







Not intentionally I'm sure, but still sad. I'm glad that your interactions with him are getting easier and you're able to redirect him. I hope you will be able to continue as his advocate and a positive force in his life, he is very lucky to have you looking out for him.


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## tbone_kneegrabber (Oct 16, 2007)

for hundreds and thousands of years people did not have multiple changes of clothes or bathe on a regular basis. And yet we survived as a species.


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## WindyCityMom (Aug 17, 2009)

Thanks to you both. He is currently napping upstairs at GMILs house, she's feeling a bit better. She noticed that I'd bathed him and I got a weird look for it, but you know... I had to. Someone had to do it, and it is unfortunate that his parents weren't the ones to do it.

His mother is working now and has been for a few months, but was a SAHM for the first two years of his life. However, most days he was brought to GMILs house. She spends weekends and evenings with him, as far as I know, though on weekends they do visit here alot so he's with the rest of the family.

My DH told me, the other day, "They just don't care. Don't you see a trend in my family? Cousin M (his older cousin who has 3 children, 2, 5, and 8) doesn't use car seats even though they know the risks." I told him "Yes, but although those kids are not safe in their car, they are fed breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and are always in clean clothes and bathed regularly. Their basic needs are being met." He thinks it's just something that people in his family are at fault for, and that it's just not DN and his issues. He says that it's how things are, have been, and always will be. I just don't know what to think about that. Just because it's the way things are and have been doesn't make it right and doesn't make it okay for my DN to suffer the way he has at such a young age.


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## WindyCityMom (Aug 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tbone_kneegrabber* 
for hundreds and thousands of years people did not have multiple changes of clothes or bathe on a regular basis. And yet we survived as a species.

I know what you're trying to say. I know that he's going to survive. But this is 2010- and in this day and age, people bathe. Would you really make your child stay unbathed for over a week and in dirty clothing when you are perfectly capable of bathing them and changing them into fresh clothes? I think it's cruel, personally. If his mother and sister are both showered complete with hair done and makeup perfect, and well-dressed, why can't my poor DN get even his hands and face washed?


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## Ornery (May 21, 2007)

I have hesitated to post on your threads about your nephew because I really do hear your concern for this child shining through. I would hate to say to anyone that whatever is going on is okay when in reality it is abusive. I am a big follower of gut feelings and if your gut feeling is that this child is being abused, you should take action.

However, as some others have stated, some of your concerns are really subjective. It sounds like this family is one of those families that may not feel that children are as precious as you do, or at least this child. Which, although I don't agree with, is not necessarily abusive. It isn't their right to be abusive but what I have read online so far isn't necessarily abusive. Crappy, yes? But abusive no. There might be many reasons for not bathing a child or for not changing that child's clothing that the law would not classify as neglectful. Not buying clothing that fits is on the line but again, probably not something that CPS would call them out on. CPS allows spanking, CIO and many other things that I, personally, think are much more harmful than a messy house, dirty clothes or no baths.

It is illegal to not have carseats. That I would totally bust someone for. It isn't illegal to not treat children like they are the precious beings that I feel they are. It isn't illegal to benignly neglect them. Whether this qualifies as benign neglect or outright, call CPS neglect is something you and your community that actually has contact with this child has to determine. I don't think the online community can make that kind of determination.

So again, I think we can all agree that this is most likely really crappy parenting. But in the end, it sounds like your options are do what you can for your nephew and let it go, or if necessary, stand up for his needs and call the authorities. Otherwise I think it is going to drive you insane.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WindyCityMom* 

My DH told me, the other day, "They just don't care. Don't you see a trend in my family? Cousin M (his older cousin who has 3 children, 2, 5, and 8) doesn't use car seats even though they know the risks." I told him "Yes, but although those kids are not safe in their car, they are fed breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and are always in clean clothes and bathed regularly. Their basic needs are being met."

This is totally subjective. Not being in carseats MASSIVELY increases their risk of death. Car accidents are a major cause of early death in the U.S. and most rich countries.

I have to agree that if that is not something you'd call CPS for--and I would consider it, if I spoke to the person personally and told them how I felt, the statistics, and the law--then why worry about the baths?

Yes, he ought to have a bath but to me, the carseat issue is way, way bigger.

I agree, at some point you need to step back and let go. They aren't good parents. Watch for true neglect.

http://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/fac.../whatiscan.cfm


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

ETA... I really meant, "So they do not SEEM like good parents from what we're hearing here."


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## outsideofthebox (Aug 25, 2010)

Now no carseats is an issue!


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WindyCityMom* 

My DH told me, the other day, "They just don't care. Don't you see a trend in my family? Cousin M (his older cousin who has 3 children, 2, 5, and 8) doesn't use car seats even though they know the risks." I told him "Yes, but although those kids are not safe in their car, they are fed breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and are always in clean clothes and bathed regularly. Their basic needs are being met." He thinks it's just something that people in his family are at fault for, and that it's just not DN and his issues. He says that it's how things are, have been, and always will be. I just don't know what to think about that. Just because it's the way things are and have been doesn't make it right and doesn't make it okay for my DN to suffer the way he has at such a young age.


I think you should listen more closely to your husband. First, short of the shoes that were too little, I wouldn't say your nephew is "suffering." It's not an ideal situation, but it sounds like he is watched, clothed (even if they're dirty), and fed. Your husband's point, though, is that you'd be taking on an entire family's culture, and that's a difficult prospect. I have limited contact with my own family because I cannot stomach the things that go on with them, but I also realize that when DH & I are 2 of 26 people, we're not going to make much headway in convincing people that their way is wrong.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WindyCityMom* 
Would you really make your child stay unbathed for over a week and in dirty clothing when you are perfectly capable of bathing them and changing them into fresh clothes? I think it's cruel, personally.

It's not cruel. Being cruel to a child and not bathing him for a few days are worlds apart. I think if you drop the hyperbole from your thoughts on your nephew, you all will benefit. To me, you're just so caught up in saying that everything in awful, cruel, terrible that you're having a hard time being rational about whether and how to help him. Look, it's crummy that his parents don't seem to care, but it's not cruelty. It's not abuse. It's just...sad.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *EdnaMarie* 
I agree, at some point you need to step back and let go. They aren't good parents. Watch for true neglect.

http://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/fac.../whatiscan.cfm

Yes. This.


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## WindyCityMom (Aug 17, 2009)

Thank you all. I do agree. It is unfortunate but maybe I should just let it go.

Oh- and I once called the police on the people with no car seats. I don't know what happened, other than the mother deleted me from facebook. I obviously didn't want to ask her "Oh, did you get pulled over the other day" because I wished to remain anonymous, again, because of our living situation (they live in the attic). But I agree. That's incredibly dangerous. I don't know what else I could have done in that matter.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

Today DN was wearing the same clothing he wore yesterday when we came up to see him at GMIL's house (I was helping her find something- she had eye surgery yesterday). He went home with his mother and came back in the same clothing, and I know it wasn't washed because the ketchup stain from lunch was still there.
My kids often wear the same clothes two days in a row (with new underwear!). It has to pass the sniff test, but with the amount of laundry that four kids produce, I don't mind if they are seen wearing the same shirt the next day.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Quote:

I don't know what else I could have done in that matter.
You spoke to her to her face first, right? Not just called the police behind her back? As in, "I'm really concerned. I know it seems like an overprotective hassle at times, but you know that death rates actually dropped a lot, right? I bet you could even get reduced cost ones from [insert local charity here]?"


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## ~savah~ (Aug 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WindyCityMom* 
Thanks for the replies, I agree, there are many things that I need to consider and reconsider and discuss with my husband.

*Yesterday, I saw DNs older sister and I mentioned it to him. She told me "Oh gosh, I know, but it's annoying to bathe him because he splashes water all over the place and just wants to play... he's such a troublemaker." So I'm now wondering if his sister is in charge of bathing him and just doesn't.
*
My husband is going to speak to his grandmother about it, and we hope that she'll get the point across to her daughter (DNs mom).

Today I am caring for my nephew, because GMIL needed the help (still recovering from surgery). I bathed him and changed his clothing into some of DDs g/n things because he was still in the clothing from the other day.

I don't know.. I mean, my daughter has and does wear the same thing twice, but if it is dirty-feeling to the touch I won't make her wear it again, you know? And if she's dirty, I bathe her.

I don't know how harmful not bathing a child is, but would you like to be dirty and not bathed for a week and in soiled clothing for a few days? (The stain is not the issue, the overall state of filth that the clothes were in from being on him for that period of time is the issue.)

How old is dn's sister? Is this really something you should be talking to another child about? I also do not quite understand how wearing dirty clothes, shoes too small and not bathing daily are worse offenses than driving around without car seats. I personally would be *much* more concerned for those children at least the two year old.


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## WindyCityMom (Aug 17, 2009)

The older sister is 13 and extremely mature for her age, I was hoping to gain some insight.

The people with the car seats believe that since they grew up without them and are fine, their kids will be fine as well. They are also extremely religious and believe that God will protect them and their children from harm and anything that may happen will be in His plan. (I don't agree with this, but this is what they and other family members have mentioned and it is the rationale for the rest of the members of extended family who also do not use car seats.) They used a bucket seat when the kids were babies but that was because they couldn't sit up and would have gotten into trouble in the car. MIL and I have discussed this deeply and she believes that some members of her family may believe that car seats are to restrain children so they don't get into trouble and jump around in the car, or to hold babies in place- not to protect kids from an accident. Some members of the family (DNs mom, until I had a lengthy discussion) wouldn't tighten their kids in the seats because they worried that they'd become trapped in the car in an accident.

Now, I do not agree with any of this, I'm still RFing my soon to be 3yo. I just feel that I've done what I could in those situations. If the police didn't do anything, there is nothing that I could have done. Talking does not work, stats do not work, video does not work. DH has said that his family lacks common sense. In the past, when I had an extra car seat, I offered it to the mom for her 2yo, she declined. No one cares in DHs family and I think I'm just done. It's not just me, they don't listen to my husband either.


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## EdnaMarie (Sep 9, 2006)

Your DH's family really takes the cake. I'm sorry. Who doesn't use carseats?!?! The last time I heard that "God will take care of me" thing (it was re: vaccinations) I was in a remote village in Asia. When we asked if God built their house and personally dressed them and planted their crops with His hands, they laughed, but the next day came to sign up for the health program.


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## WindyCityMom (Aug 17, 2009)

Yeah, unfortunately. I think I just need to be done with his family. It is quite unfortunate because although we both have our faults, DH is such a wonderful person and very unlike his family. Yesterday he asked me if we could move to Idaho









I just feel like I need to cut my "help everyone" attitude in this case and move on with our lives. I feel sick to my stomach because of some of the things I see. I don't want to leave my DN in the dust, especially because he has become so attached to us. I just hope that whatever the future may hold will be in the best interest of all of us.

Thank you everyone for your words of wisdom and advice.


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## ~savah~ (Aug 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WindyCityMom* 
Yeah, unfortunately. I think I just need to be done with his family. It is quite unfortunate because although we both have our faults, DH is such a wonderful person and very unlike his family. Yesterday he asked me if we could move to Idaho









I just feel like I need to cut my "help everyone" attitude in this case and move on with our lives. I feel sick to my stomach because of some of the things I see. I don't want to leave my DN in the dust, especially because he has become so attached to us. I just hope that whatever the future may hold will be in the best interest of all of us.

Thank you everyone for your words of wisdom and advice.

I think this might be a good idea. You can only do so much especially if the people who you are trying to help aren't receptive. My brother and SIL do a lot of things I wouldn't including using a lbb for my three yo niece. I bought them a carseat and recited the statistics, but it's not something that concerns them so I let it go. We can't parent all the world's children.


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## Smithie (Dec 4, 2003)

"Yesterday he asked me if we could move to Idaho."

I don't know about Idaho, but yes, it's time for you guys to move _somewhere_. Two people can't plug a hole in the Titanic, but they can darn well get themselves and their child into a lifeboat without delay!


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## WindyCityMom (Aug 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smithie* 
"Yesterday he asked me if we could move to Idaho."

I don't know about Idaho, but yes, it's time for you guys to move _somewhere_. Two people can't plug a hole in the Titanic, but they can darn well get themselves and their child into a lifeboat without delay!


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## Polliwog (Oct 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WindyCityMom* 
My primary concern is that someone else will call DCFS, especially if they're mandated reporters. *If the gymnastics coach feels that another parent might call, then the coach might take it into her own hands to call because not calling would be illegal on her part, and she would get in trouble.* I'm worried that that might happen. I know that there are people who will call the authorities if you so much as breathe on your child the wrong way- I don't want anyone to see me with a very obviously unbathed child and figure "Oh, she doesn't care about her kids" or "Oh, she doesn't care about her son but cares for her daughters, poor thing" etc.

That's not exactly how being a mandated reporter works. I've been a mandated reporter in many different situations- teacher, education specialist, and foster parent. You are only mandated to report if YOU think there is possible abuse or neglect. There's a lot of gray area when it comes to cleanliness. It's very subjective. I don't think a gymnastics coach would be liable for not reporting a child being dirty, even if someone else did report it. There's just not enough context. It's not like seeing the child with a big burn or blatent malnourishment. Or a preschool teacher who sees the child daily.

I don't know if this child is being truly neglected (to a legal degree.) It happens. Both of my children were removed from their birth homes for neglect. It actually takes a lot for CPS to actually step in.


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## Rosebud1 (Sep 8, 2007)

OP, all I can say is that you need to keep your eyes on the prize and get out of that house as soon as possible. I get that you truly are concerned about your DN, but I imagine it is incredibly stressful to be in such an unhappy and unnurturing environment 24/7. Being a SAHM which I think you are, you and your children literally swim in that environment all day and it can't be good for you (or them), to see evidence of neglect and lack of discipline and poor choices everywhere you look. And since you have little ones yourself, of course you are going to focus on parenting styles and how children are treated/ behaving. That's your world right now.

If I wasn't broke as a joke I would be tempted to send you a dollar for your moving out fund! ; )

Life is to be lived! Pull waaaay back from your DH's family, and just get real busy caring for your own little ones. Love your DN but stay away from the rest. And find a way to get the heck out of there sooner! Great creative in terms of housing you will consider. Because this place, no matter how cheap it is, still seems too 'expensive' for your family. The stress it is putting on you to be in that environment can't be good for your LO's.


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## Ldavis24 (Feb 19, 2009)

Op I just have to say I am thoroughly impressed with you general level of
Composure in general with the whole situation. That said, I think you just need to try
to distinguish between things of real concern (the carseat issues) as opposed to wearing
dirty clothes or not being bathed. I have to admit to feeling guilty when reading your
admonishments about not bathing. Dd is almost 17 months and she only gets bathed once
A week. It has been eight days since her last bath. Yeah she has a little dirt under her
nails but she isn't sweaty and she doesn't smell. She loved to bath and swim all summer
but now she has major bath freakouts and I prefer to not torture her as opposed
To having a squeaky clean kid. She gets her face and hands scrubbed each night but
What you said about it being cruel toucheda nerve with me. Sometimes maybe just
think about what you write because some of the minor stuff just sounded flat out preachy.
It actually retracted from the more pressing concerns


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

Yeah, another vote for being concerned about *REAL* issues (ie carseat), and not over stuff thats irrelevant and simple opinion/preference. My boys get a bath, 1-2x a week, on average, and occasionally go much long stretches without. DS1 (3.5) simply hates baths, always has, and its really not worth the screaming and fighting to give him a bath every day. Its really not. DS2 (14 months), gets a bath when ds1 does, or occasionally with me. So, he actually gets bathed more than ds1.









And, tbh, I've gone a solid week to as much as 2 weeks between showers at various points in my life, and I'm quite happy to report that I'm *JUST FINE*. Some of those times were out backpacking/camping, some were while traveling around europe. And I frequently go 2-3, even 4 days between showers even here at home.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

OP --







I remember how many upsetting details I got worked up over toward the end of a six month stay at my mom's. It wasn't the exact same situation -- I'm just saying I know what it's like when you're living right in the middle of a really stressful situation.

It's hard to keep our perspective when we can't ever step away. I think you'll find it a lot easier to separate the big stuff from the small stuff when you're out.

By the way, Kansas City is also in the Midwest and I think (but am not sure) that the opportunities here are similar to those in Chicago. Plus the cost of living is a whole lot lower. Just thought I'd mention this city as a place to consider if you're thinking about relocating.


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## JudiAU (Jun 29, 2008)

WindyCityMom said:


> My DH told me, the other day, "They just don't care. Don't you see a trend in my family? Cousin M (his older cousin who has 3 children, 2, 5, and 8) doesn't use car seats even though they know the risks." I told him "Yes, but although those kids are not safe in their car, they are fed breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and are always in clean clothes and bathed regularly. Their basic needs are being met." QUOTE]
> 
> Their basic needs are not being met if they are not properly restrained in a car. They are less safe, overall, then if there hygiene, clothing, and food was substandard. I'd call 911 in a heartbeat if I saw an unrestrainted 2 year old in a car.


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