# Witnessing Verbal Abuse in Public



## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

I don't really know which forum is best for this issue, but I'll start here.

The other day, I was in a restaurant with my 4-yr-old and witnessed what was overtly and undeniably a woman emotionally abusing a child. She didn't scream, but enough people heard her to turn around and stare. She turned beet red and angry while scolding a little boy who was about 7. "You do NOT eat with your fingers. You use a fork. A FORK! You embarrass me, you embarrass yourself. I am SICK AND TIRED of you acting like a baby. You KNOW BETTER. Now PICK UP YOUR FORK. Ugh! I can't just can't believe you..." This went on and on and on and on as people (including me) stared appallingly at her and the poor little boy sniveled, cried, and sunk into his seat. The more he teared up, the harder she dug into him. Gee, bullying this little boy must have made her feel really strong and powerful.









Believe me, I'm not alone in thinking that this was just horrible. A lady at a table behind me exclaimed, "What a bitch!" But the angry lady, (she was either an older mom or younger grandma), either didn't hear her or ignored her.

Look, 100% of us have gotten so far at the end of the rope that we've snapped and said something stupid to our children. Hopefully, it's followed by a hug and an apology. I'm extremely compassionate toward stressed out parents because I've sooooo been there. But what I witnessed wasn't definitely wasn't impulsive snapping. I simply can't be non-judgmental in a situation like this. My heart just ached for that poor boy.

I felt the urge to do the same thing as the other restaurant patron and call the woman a bitch. But I refrained because I worried that it would make the woman lash out even harder, maybe even at the little boy. But since she was clearly making a scene, it's hard to put this situation in the nobody's-business category because she made it everybody's business.

Have you ever witnessed anything similar? What did you do? Is there an appropriate response in a situation like this?


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## mama amie (Jul 3, 2011)

Gosh, that is a hard one. I have seen this before, and have never gotten up the gall to address the person. Usually, I see this while alone with my two littles, so it is tough to even consider addressing, as my kids would likely run off as I am trying to talk to this person. But, my experience also tells me that once someone is in that "zone", it is hard to talk to them, as they are in the throes of lizard brain and it could so easily escalate. Looking forward to hearing suggestions, as well.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I have been that mom a few times and it isn't a deliberate thing, it is a completely fed up hormonal driven thing that once started is hard to pull back from. It has also been about an issue that I am incredibly fed up with but haven't been effectively insisting on a change. There is also definitely an apology later and work on getting time for myself, reconnecting, and also on effectively making a change so the issue doesn't come up again the next time I am hormonal and it happens.

We also have discussions about anger and how it can carry us away. It isn't something I am proud of but I wouldn't judge another mom for going there based on one observance. One time every few years is about as often as I have snapped this badly.


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## mama amie (Jul 3, 2011)

I should add that I am right there with One Girl in having my own bad days. However there have been times that what I saw was undeniably verbal abuse, unwarranted cruel remarks toward a child.

The best single statement I have thought of is " remember, this is the person who will have to care for you when you get old". It isn't harsh, judgmental, or particularly confrontational. I haven't actually used it, though.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

I don't know, the particular quote you posted is a gray area for me. It's certainly not kind language, but I don't know that it goes all the way into abusive. It sounds like a stressed out, end-of-her-rope mom who could use a break, and who hasn't been there? I would feel bad for the boy (I hate when kids look ashamed like that, it breaks my heart), but I wouldn't assume that was the mom's typical way of interacting with him. Poor kiddo, and poor mama.

I was that mom once on an escalator with my DS. I don't know what about the situation made me snap, but he wouldn't get off the escalator properly and this horrid voice emanated from my throat, surprising me, him, and the two women behind me who gave me (deservedly) dirty looks. I was so ashamed of myself, and spent lots of time after that reflecting on the situation and taking steps to prevent it from happening again. But those two ladies don't know that -- to them I'm just that awful mom they saw one day.


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

I saw someone say something so awful to a little child once. I didn't do anything but look appalled, feel disgusted and totally helpless. I was sick to my stomach.

Obviously, I have no advice. I try not to judge as well but in my opinion this example is a little beyond what I would consider a good mom having a hard day. I don't have a seven year old yet but geez. My husband would probably slap me (not really, but he would want to and if it was him I would want to slap him too)!


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## mama amie (Jul 3, 2011)

In my opinion, it is less the quote from the mad mom, but the way she continued "bullying" after the child grew ashamed and was crying.

Sometimes I have to use my sternest tone to get my son to hear me, and that may have been the end of her rope, last resort voice speaking. But once the behavior stops and child is in tears, it makes sense to stop, reflect, and repair- not berate, bully and antagonize. Does that seem to accurately describe the line between showing frustration and verbal abuse? It certainly can be a skinny little wimpy line to notice, if we arrnt careful.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

It might seem easy to go back to calm once your child is crying but it isn't always the case. There was an NPR discussion about the physiological changes that go on during anger that was very interesing. A sudden stop from a position of fury is very very hard to force because you are working against your body which is chemically in fight mode and basically egging you on. That is part of why fights between spouses go on a lot and past stuff gets pulled up even if the fight seems to be pointless.

Yes that kind of lashing out is bullying but it isn't something that is necessarily that mother's typically way of interacting.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *limabean*
> 
> I don't know, the particular quote you posted is a gray area for me. It's certainly not kind language, but I don't know that it goes all the way into abusive. It sounds like a stressed out, end-of-her-rope mom who could use a break, and who hasn't been there?


Yes, I have heard MUCH worse language at children in public... I wouldn't be happy to overhear it but I'm not sure that I'd say anything. I have told random strangers that "that is no way to talk to a child!" when I've overheard serious verbal abuse with full on cursing. And I've prayed that I wouldn't get punched in the face for it.


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## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

Since it looks like everybody draws a different line between parental frustration and all-out verbal abuse, and since I'd rather not get bogged down in a debate over whether she crossed that line, (perhaps you just had to be there), let me say this another way.

Suppose a parent crosses your own threshold, ie they behave publicly in a manner that you consider verbally abusive. What, if anything, is an appropriate response?


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## Mummoth (Oct 30, 2003)

Usually my kid (we call him Mouth) will say something like "WOW! I'm glad she's not my mom!" before I can say anything at all.

Once at a barbecue, a grandma was trying to force her grandchild to eat while all the other kids played, and telling the kid there weren't ingredients in the food that there were. I had made a salmon pasta salad and she was telling her it's just peppers, you like them. I was like "No, I made that it's salmon." and the grandma shooshed me. I felt so bad for the girl and my husband was like "Just let her go play with the other kids, she'll get something when she's hungry!" This girl was 8 or so, plenty old enough to know if she was hungry or not and everyone had been snacking all afternoon. But the poor kids had to 'clean her plate'.


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## mama amie (Jul 3, 2011)

Here's an article I just found that offers a few suggestions that are non-shaming and supportive:

http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/23/when-to-interfere-with-a-parent-in-public/?_r=0


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## starling&diesel (Nov 24, 2007)

My go-to line is:

"Excuse me, is there anything I can do to help?" Might not have anything to do with what happened, but it provides a break in the tension, and a social cue that they're acting out of the acceptable box.

Usually, the parent/caregiver snaps back, "No, thank you!" but it does work to make them aware that they're not acting in a vacuum. And most often, that means that they shift their behaviour.

If it's blatant abuse, ie. spanking, or yelling obscenities in a shaming/blaming way, physical or verbal assault, I put on my biggest voice ... "HEY! Whoa! What are you doing?"

And then they can tell me; either to eff off, or how their kid supposedly deserved it, or how they got carried away, or whatever. Again, they'll at least know that I SEE them. It either diffuses the situation, or turns the assailant's attention to me, which I can then deal with, or heck, call the cops. I sometimes have my cell phone in hand when I confront them.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

If I truly thought something was abuse I would write down a license plate number and report the incident to cps. If it was physical abuse I would call the police. I have used sympathetic phrases a few times, things like "I don't miss that age" and a friendly smile when passing in the grocery isle.


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## Jennyanydots (Sep 8, 2011)

I really don't know what an appropriate response is. As PPs have pointed out, many of us have had moments when we've lost it and behaved in ways that can be construed as abusive. If it were outright physical abuse... I don't know, I might have to say something, or as someone else suggested, report the incident perhaps. Verbal... I would probably just feel very bad for the child, embarrassed for the parent, hope it is an isolated or rare occurrence in their family, and reflect on just how bad that situation looks from the outside. That perspective has been helpful to me at times when my own kids are driving me crazy. Also, I know that as a young mom I was often prone to losing my temper and treating DD1 ungently, and I remember the terrible guilt that followed- it helped me get ahold of myself and become a better parent. I guess I'd hope the parent I was witnessing might go through a similar evolution if he/she were mired in an angry and abusive cycle.

Its a great question and a great topic for thought/discussion. I guess it would have to get to the point of immediate serious endangerment before I know for sure I would intervene. Nobody's perfect.


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## justmama (Dec 24, 2002)

I don't think there was a way you could assist without turning the mom's anger/frustration on you. I'm glad you see that she could have just been at the end of her rope and it's quite possible she left and int he car told her child, "hey listen, I snapped and I was wrong. I was getting frustrated with you and it was not okay to take it out on you. I'm sorry." Sometimes when I see a parent in the store with a toddler who keeps taking off or mom is overwhelmed with multiple kids and I can assist, I do. Maybe it's just even playing peek a boo for a moment iwth a toddler while mom is in the checkout lane. I grabbed a climbing toddler at the zoo last week who was milliseconds from falling face first into a pond while mom was yelling at her in a REALLY frustrated tone from about 10ft away. Actually two days ago I was grocery shopping with all 3 of mine and there was a mom just LAYING INTO her son for getting so messy with a muffin and making himself filthy and mashing it into a new shirt and getting it all over the floor. I think she was more embarrassed than anything but I pushed my cart over, smiled at her, and said, " you should have seen my youngest one yesterday. Mud. Head to toe. She was so proud of herself too.







Good thing they are only little one, huh? I have a baby wipe in my purse, let me get it out for you." Sometimes just commiserating with a fellow parent is enough to distract them and remind them that it's not the end of the world. No one is judging them. We've all been there. In the restaurant like that, unless you are right next to them and can smile in that knowing way and make a comment about your own experiences like that, there's no much you can do. It's not like she was beating the snot outta the kid. And it could have been something that kid had been doing over and over and she was just really frustrated and had had a bad day. Hopefully she handled it better later on when she cooled down and the kid had a good lesson in apologies and treating people with respect.


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## zenaviva (Jun 22, 2013)

As much as I wish everyone treated their children (and spouse, and everyone else for that matter) with kindness and respect, I do think that it's a disservice to children who are truly abused and in need of intervention, to interpret less-than-kind (and yeah, even outright mean) comments as abuse. It's a spectrum. There's a difference between the definitely non-GD spanking approach (which I definitely don't advocate, but don't see as *abuse* necessarily) to people genuinely torturing their precious children, maiming them, breaking bones, scarring etc. I think the same goes for verbal abuse. Being sarcastic, mean, etc... Is it nice? No. Will it harm the child long-term? Sadly, it's a possibility... but then again, it MAY just be an off-day for the mother and there is a big apology coming, etc. Truly CPS can't go around taking kids from every "bitch" of a mother. You might feel righteous about calling the authorities and reporting them, but for all you know, the family would be placed under MORE stress (a TON more stress) by being reported, and things might get worse. Or, the child might be removed altogether, and I don't know how going to a foster home and being ripped away from all you know would necessarily be better than staying with your parents who may or may not be less-than-kind on occasion.

I am a firm believer than most people who lash out are suffering on the inside, and need compassion more than judgment. Getting the law involved on someone else would be a last resort for me. I would rather try to see if I could help if it was feasible.

What I would do, in an ideal situation like that, is to try to be discreet in talking to the mother. For example, instead of walking up to their table all conspicuously, I might try to "head to the restroom" at the same time they were leaving, or something like that. Maybe say something sympathetic, or tell them I've been there, or something. Once I was in a store and another mother was clearly yelling at her son. He was maybe 10-11 and clearly embarrassed. She was going on about why he couldn't be like other people. I said something to her about how I have that conversation with my kids every other day, and smiled. I wasn't trying to encourage her, but it did distract her. She started talking to me about how frustrating it was for her to have an ADHD son, and she went on to vent about how she's exhausted and his new meds aren't working, and this and that. It was a total stranger, but it seemed she really needed to vent to someone. I listened to her for a minute or two, and then she just sighed and apologized to her son, and went off, a lot calmer. I ran into them a few minutes later again and they were smiling and having a good time (it seemed) by then. I think that situation went just about perfectly - she didn't get offended, she got to vent, I think she realized that she wasn't acting "right" - and I would hope that if I ever acted like that in public, that's the sort of reaction I would get. Someone to maybe remind me to take a step back, sympathize, etc. It's a different situation if someone is too far gone, though, and those methods wouldn't help them. I don't know. It's a tough call. I think I would rather err on the side of caution though before judging someone else's less-than-stellar parenting moments. (Unless there was outright and undeniable abuse going on, in which case I'd consider that an emergency and would treat accordingly.)


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## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

Mama Amie and S& D had what I was looking for. Thank you! In a situation like this involving verbal abuse, a call to CPS isn't even on my radar. But you both provided some productive but compassionate responses. This woman was so volatile that I don't know that following her to "talk it over" would have been a good move. The same applies to cute, humorous, ice-breaking comments. There's definitely a time and place for those, but they only exacerbate explosive anger that this woman was showing. I guess situational context is everything.

OK, that's the topic that I wanted to address. But this thread has opened up some others.

Again, I'm not really interested in the topic of whether or not my impressions of what I witnessed are valid or whether or not it's considered "legitimate" verbal abuse. You either believe it or you don't.

I did have an interesting thought, however. What if it had been a man and his wife or girlfriend? What if he verbally tore her down, publicly humiliated her, and even revved up his efforts as she teared up and shrunk down in her chair?

Would we be having this discussion? "We shouldn't judge." "He probably had a hard day." "Well, I've heard worse." "Well, it's not like he was beating her."

Or do we have different standards that change with each victim and aggressor?

Interesting questions.

Sometimes I think that we tow a fine line between explaining someone's behavior and excusing it. I agree that this woman needs empathy and compassion. So does that little boy.


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

VERY good point. If it were a man yelling at a woman like that I would be like "OH HELL NO!" and would probably have said something. For some reason it seems like people feel they are intruding when they comment on someone's parenting.

And absolutely the little boy needed compassion. 100% agree.


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## zenaviva (Jun 22, 2013)

For me personally, it wouldn't make a difference as to whether it was a woman or a child. Or a grandmother or pet. If someone is setting off my danger alert, I would treat that the same. If there was a clear emergency, I would do SOMEthing. If in a large group, try to stand up to the aggressor (and hope others would back me up), or call the cops, or something. But no, I can't imagine myself interfering if there was just an uncomfortable conversation going on. I guess it does depend on being there in the moment, and is hard to tell over the Internet and generalize.

ETA: The point in showing compassion to the parent (in that situation) is not the end all and be all. It's a method of diffusing the situation. Of COURSE the child needs empathy too. But ramping up the tension with the parent while shooting sympathetic looks to the child (or whatever) isn't going to help them in the long run... What might help them is to help the parent calm down, step back, maybe re-evaluate their incorrect response, and let them fix it. Hopefully. Otherwise the parent might just take out more aggression out on them later.


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## Jennyanydots (Sep 8, 2011)

Yes, that is a good point. However, the relationships between spouses and parents/children are very different. Even the normal commands we give our kids would not be acceptable if issued by one adult to another. For example: please sit down; stay right there; stop touching that; come back right now, etc.


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## zenaviva (Jun 22, 2013)

I get what you're saying, sort of... but I'm not sure I agree. It's not OK to tell a spouse to sit down, if you're polite about it? I tell my spouse to sit down all the time.  And he does the same to me, and I don't mind. Or I'll tell him to quiet down if he gets really loud in public, or he'll tell me to xyz, whatever. It's not a parent-child relationship, but still. I'm just not sure I understand your point.


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## dalia (Sep 3, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zenaviva*
> 
> I get what you're saying, sort of... but I'm not sure I agree. It's not OK to tell a spouse to sit down, if you're polite about it? I tell my spouse to sit down all the time.
> 
> ...


I think the difference would be the "shaming" part of it. For example if I said to my DH, "Sit down you fat idiot! You are an embarrassment to me!!" Then that would be pretty bad. But just telling him to sit down or arguing is a whole nother thing. I wouldn't interfere.

One time I was at Starbucks and the guy in front of me started being really rude and mean to the employees because their steamer wasn't working. I told him to leave them alone and that it was not their fault. It turned kinda crazy and we ended up yelling. I am not proud of that part of it but I do feel that people need to be defended. The girls were so grateful to me that one of them teared up and they gave me a free drink! I can't help but try to defend people I feel are being bullied but for some reason I feel very powerless when it comes to people mistreating children.


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## zenaviva (Jun 22, 2013)

That, yeah, I've had happen before as well. I've never had it get to the point of actually arguing with the customer, but I will try to say something nice to someone if I feel they're being treated unfairly. I guess I'm not very confrontational in that way - maybe I should be! - but I would rather just say something positive to the clerk or whoever when it's my turn, to let them know that I saw what happened and that it wasn't fair to them, or what have you.


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## Jennyanydots (Sep 8, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zenaviva*
> 
> I get what you're saying, sort of... but I'm not sure I agree. It's not OK to tell a spouse to sit down, if you're polite about it? I tell my spouse to sit down all the time.
> 
> ...


my point is that although it is a useful perspective, the relationships are not analogous. in one relationship you're the other's equal, and in the other, you're their caregiver. I don't command my DP, and he doesn't command me. I would never dream of telling him to be quiet or sit down and my feelings would be very hurt if he did so to me.


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## zenaviva (Jun 22, 2013)

To stir the pot a bit, let's say my DH and I are eating at the restaurant table next to yours, and you overhear DH "command" me to do something... where it doesn't register for me to be upset, but it wouldn't fly in your marriage. Would that be perhaps distressing to you in some way, even if it wasn't to me? Obviously, you would be able to see whether or not I was crying in the corner, so that would make a difference too, but would you perhaps judge regardless?

OP, I think we keep coming back to the idea of what is and what is not abuse because it's relevant to the nature of the discussion. It's not just our own personal definitions of abuse that matter, but in a way, what IS the common definition of abuse. There's a really muddled middle ground between "definitely abuse" and "definitely not abuse" and it is very hard to generalize how one would act in that sort of situation. (Or to imagine how one would like to act in said situation - which obviously takes some courage to do so.) If a law is being broken, that's an easy and clear-cut thing. But yeah, it is such a difficult topic to figure out. When should we mind our own business, just how much are we responsible to the people around us, how do we do the most good and the least harm? I don't know how to answer these questions hypothetically, but thank you for bringing it up. It's good food for thought.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I do think it would be different if it was an adult talking to another adult this way. They would have been asked to leave and the police may have been called if they were outside and one seemed loud or threatening. Adult relationships aren't typically as draining as the parent /child relationship so there tends to be less tolerance of disturbances that involve only adults. Adults do sometimes have really bad days and they make each other cry, deliberately or not, but that also isn't something I think is worthy of judgment unless safety is a concern.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Adult partners have the option of walking away. The angry partner could walk away if s/he needed a break, and the other partner could walk away if s/he felt mistreated.

Parents and children don't have that luxury -- they have to stick it out whether they're at their breaking point or not. Which is hard and sad for both parties -- the parent can't take a break to regroup when she feels herself getting out of control, and the kid can't say, "That's it, I'm outta here" if things go too far.


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## mama amie (Jul 3, 2011)

In regards to my own relationship with my son, I have actually told him he can call us out if we're getting too "hot". Of course it is most important that we keep ourselves in check, but DH and I both lose patience a little too easily at times. I wanted to empower DS to stand up for himself when he feels others are being disrespectful or unkind. He know he can always tell us to calm down or ask why we're so mad. These statements coming from him help us remember that he is a young person, not something to be controlled or disrespected. We do the same for him when he starts losing control. I reinforce this in play situations by reminding my son and his playmates that they can and should let their boundaries be known, and to ask for help if needed.


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## mamarhu (Sep 12, 2004)

Thank you for bringing up this interesting discussion. I too have intervened with compassion for the mom in situations like this. While I agree the kid really deserves the compassion here, helping Mom calm down and regroup seems to be the best benefit I can hope to bring about. One time, I was that out-of-control parent. I still feel justified in my anger (but not in how I expressed it). I had gone to pretty extreme lengths to set up a once in a lifetime, make-or-break opportunity for ElderSon, then 15, and he sabotaged it. Clearly, in retrospect, it was my goal for him, not his. But he could have said "no, thank you", rather than publicly humiliating me. Long story, but I made a scene as we were getting out of the car. No idea that anyone had seen it. But when we got back to the car, a stranger had left a note under my windshield wiper, saying "I know you love your son, and want the best for him. I don't know the whole story, but I do know that the way you were talking to him will only push him away, not strengthen your relationship. Please tell him you love him. That is all he really needs to hear right now." I wish I could thank the kind stranger. That was exactly what I needed to hear right then.


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## PrimordialMind (May 4, 2013)

OP, only you know how severe it was. We werent there so all we have to go on is what you described. It doesnt sound that bad by your description, but sometimes it can be hard to appropriately describe how intense a situation was. So, in reality, it doesnt matter how people assess it, all that matters is you were there and you saw how severe it was.

Personally i typically dont bother with saying something because there is really not a whole lot a random stranger can do to help change a situation. Its true that sometimes a parent is just having a bad day, but sometimes you can tell this is just how they are. In a case where the verbal attacks keep going on and on, like what you described, OP, its probably the latter. I hate to say it, but short of contacting the authorities, you're not going to change their lives by speaking a few words.

Let me share a story that came to mind while reading this thread: i used to work as a cashier in a candy store, a long time ago before i became a mom. I've always had a soft spot for kids, though, so sometimes it was excruciating to witness some of the interactions between parents and their kids. There was one little boy, about 7, who came in with his mom. He was filling his bag with candy when he accidentally dropped a few. Not a big deal, it happens all the time. She became extremely stern and drill sergeant-like, telling him in a scary even tone that he is a failure, how could he do such a thing, that he better stop dropping them, on and on. And, of course, these insults just made him drop more candy which made the insults more severe. She never raised her voice, though, which was the creepiest thing, but the little boy was shaking and crying by the end of it all. I had never heard such extreme verbal abuse before, i wish i could describe it better but i cant remember her words exactly, just the intent behind it. She was literally trying to annihilate him with her words and it definitely wasnt a random occurrence--this was how she was raising him. I stood there, with my mouth open, unsure of what to do or say and then she came over to me to pay. This was the most painful part, at least for me, because i couldnt stand seeing that little boy crying and feeling so ashamed and not being able to reach out and hold him and tell him it'll be okay. I couldnt because i was a mall employee, i was supposed to just do my job and not get involved. The most i could have done was call security but was that really going to help this child?? I knew from another experience in that candy store that calling CPS doesnt amount to much if you dont have some sort of proof. Its just my word against the parent's. Oh, how i wish i could have said something, though, especially when she was being friendly towards me while paying. She went from extreme verbal abuse to this fake, ice cold niceness in mere seconds. It was the creepiest thing i've ever experienced. When they left a moment later, i watched as she immediately started digging into him again as if she never stopped. It is extremely horrible to witness something like that and the sickest part is the reality that nothing you say is going to change the circumstances, it is simply too severe.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Turquesa*
> 
> Suppose a parent crosses your own threshold, ie they behave publicly in a manner that you consider verbally abusive. What, if anything, is an appropriate response?


There have been times where I have been able to intervene when a parent is having trouble with effective, gentle discipline. The way I go about it is to "help" the parent by disciplining the child in my own way. This obviously works better with friends and family (people you kind of know) but I have had some success in public. So, this mom's issue was that the 4 year old boy wasn't sitting up straight and using his fork? I might make eye contact with the boy and point to my fork and give him a little wink and smile and then a big nod when he used it. Then maybe I'd straighten way up in my seat to remind him to sit up. Maybe the mom would see my help and realize that there's a nicer, more fun way to make reminders. In your case (once it got really bad and the boy was crying), I may just walk over on the way to the bathroom and say something like, "Aw...it's so hard when you're sad at a fun dinner out with mom," and then kind of commiserate a bit with the mom by making a comment or light-hearted joke about dinner dates with 4 year olds.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Turquesa*
> I did have an interesting thought, however. What if it had been a man and his wife or girlfriend? What if he verbally tore her down, publicly humiliated her, and even revved up his efforts as she teared up and shrunk down in her chair?
> 
> Would we be having this discussion? "We shouldn't judge." "He probably had a hard day." "Well, I've heard worse." "Well, it's not like he was beating her."
> ...


Yes, it is very different for me. I think part of that is that I do not think the relationship with a child is the same as with a partner... but another part of that is probably societal conditioning that tells us on treating kids poorly is acceptable.







In the case of two equals (a non-caretaker relationship) I don't know what I would do but I can imagine myself telling the abuser to not be such a jerk or offering the abused a ride home.

A better analogy would be an adult caring for another adult (special needs, elderly). Of course, we can imagine a caretaker being a bit short or stern out of stress...but we just don't see adults out right yelling or shaming other adults with special needs, do we? I'm not saying it doesn't happen behind closed doors but it's taboo in public. This is were I think the societal norms come in that trains us to tolerate one level of behavior towards children and another towards adults.


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## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

Oh wow! This discussion has gotten so fascinating that it may be hard to keep this post focused! :lol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
> 
> So, this mom's issue was that the 4 year old boy wasn't sitting up straight and using his fork?


Oh, just to clarify, the boy that I witnessed was about 7. The 4-yr-old was my own DS, who was at my table obliviously eating his pancakes, thank goodness!







Great idea on handling the situation, by the way.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jennyanydots*
> 
> my point is that although it is a useful perspective, the relationships are not analogous. in one relationship you're the other's equal, and in the other, you're their caregiver. I don't command my DP, and he doesn't command me. I would never dream of telling him to be quiet or sit down and my feelings would be very hurt if he did so to me.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *limabean*
> 
> Adult partners have the option of walking away. The angry partner could walk away if s/he needed a break, and the other partner could walk away if s/he felt mistreated.
> 
> Parents and children don't have that luxury -- they have to stick it out whether they're at their breaking point or not. Which is hard and sad for both parties -- the parent can't take a break to regroup when she feels herself getting out of control, and the kid can't say, "That's it, I'm outta here" if things go too far.


Here I'm definitely going to disagree. I've had a lot of experience working with IPV victims (intimate partner violence), and maltreatment of ANY form--from verbal abuse (or just being a jerk) to outright physical violence--and to any person occurs because there is an unequal dynamic in a relationship. At least in the IPV context, 100% of physical abuse begins with just verbal abuse, which wears somebody down psychologically. I'm not sure if that's the case with child abuse, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is.

While I agree with Identity Crisis Mama's assessment that an adult-to-adult-caregiver relationship is more on par with an adult-to-child dynamic, there's still a psychological complexity that occurs between "equal" adults. There was a horrible study (horrible as in cruel) back in the 1960s in which kenneled dogs were shocked at their feet. At first they yelped, resisted, and tried to escaped. Then futility took over. They still yelped but passively accepted their fate. That's where we get the idea of "learned helplessness." That also helps answer the question that so many people ask of IPV victims, "Why doesn't she just leave?" It's because *she* (in some cases *he*) is not only disadvantaged psychologically, but also often economically. They're also often isolated socially from friends and family, and taught that they can't survive without the abuser. So the question is less "why doesn't she leave?" and more "why does the abuser do this to her?"

Now my scenario of the man and woman in the restaurant may or may not be an IPV situation. Witnesses can't know just by looking. But I would be very, very careful before assuming that adult-to-adult encounters are "equal" and as easy to end as "walking away."

The other issue I have with the this point is. . . for the sake of argument, let's suppose that there *is* an equal dynamic in the adult relationship. How does that make publicly humiliating and psychologically tormenting a child more tolerable? I agree that it *is* more tolerable in our culture, but I don't think that's right.

Quote:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


First off, thank you. I wouldn't be pouring so much into this thread if the situation had been just someone's trivial bad day.

Second, a big reason that I started this discussion is because in many ways, I am afraid to act, partly for the reasons you mentioned. But I also know that Zenaviva was right in saying that it could make things worse. From my IPV work and all of the literature on IPV that the worst thing you can do is humiliate an abuser because their response is to regain that lost power by committing more abuse. Again, I DON'T KNOW if she actually abused that boy. It's very likely that she did not, and that I witnessed a one-time incident. But it's important to tread cautiously when we don't know either way.

Another aspect of this discussion that I want to explore is the don't-judge maxim. If we're not careful, "don't judge" becomes a way of saying that we're not allowed to have an opinion on anything. I think that "don't judge" should come with the disclaimer that there is a difference between juding a person and judging an action.

With the woman in my OP, I actually don't think it's a good idea to judge her. There could be any hundreds of explanations for her behavior. Maybe it COULD have been an exceptionally bad day with an exceptionally rare moment of her taking it out on the boy. Maybe a loved one was on a death bed or something else horrible and stressful. Maybe she was abruptly coming off of some psychotropic medication, and taking another dose would have calmed her. Maybe she herself was abused (verbally, physically, sexually, etc), and was repeating some cycles and patterns. Maybe she beat the poor child behind closed doors.







I'm not in a position to judge her because I don't know a thing apart from what is happening in that moment that I witness . . . and my own subjective impressions of it.

But judging the action? You're darn right I'm going to do that. It was horrible.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I think that don't judge in this context means don't assume she is an awful mother who always interacts like this based on one time seeings her having an awful interaction with her child, not don't judge the action. You can't know how someone parents just from one interaction.

I don't feel that strong judgment about other parents is helpful for myself personally because in judging I also put a lot of pressure on myself to be perfect and when I cracked I did so badly because I wasn't expressing my annoyance in healthy little ways all along. It is easy to contain those emotions with a young child but as they get older and parenting becomes harder stuffing emotions also becomes harder. Part of not judging for me comes down to what I need to do to be good parent.

I disagree with the assumption that victims of dv can't leave or that one episode of bad parenting means you are acting just like an.abusive spouse. They can leave but choose not to for a variety of reasons, many leave and return, and some of us do just leave. And I would be very surprised if many parents raise their children without ever snapping at all or even got through marriage without one nasty fight. There are many past threads by mdc members about snapping because it is something that happens between family members. Family pushes your buttons like nobody else can.


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## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *One_Girl*
> 
> I think that don't judge in this context means don't assume she is an awful mother who always interacts like this based on one time seeings her having an awful interaction with her child, not don't judge the action. You can't know how someone parents just from one interaction.


That's what I said.

Most of your post just reiterates points that I already made. But it can be very, very hard to leave an abusive relationship of any kind.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Turquesa*
> 
> But it can be very, very hard to leave an abusive relationship of any kind.


I agree. But you and I are operating from different premises, which I hesitate to bring up because you've said a couple of times that you're not interested in discussing the aspect of whether this mother's behavior constituted abuse.

So in my context, I'm saying that when one adult partner (in an otherwise healthy relationship) has a bad day and begins to mistreat the other, they both have the option of stepping back and taking a breather before interacting again.

Whereas you're thinking of the abuser/victim dynamic, where the victim is so emotionally beaten down that s/he doesn't struggle against the abuse, and might even feel as though it's deserved. Which is very real and valid. I just wanted to clarify that I don't support the whole "Why don't abuse victims just leave?" thing.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Turquesa*
> 
> That's what I said.
> 
> Most of your post just reiterates points that I already made. But it can be very, very hard to leave an abusive relationship of any kind.


You're right, I misread your post and read it as you arguing the need to judge this woman not just her actions as many Pp have suggested from the start. I really need to wear my hideous glasses when I read long posts

It is hard to leave and there are a lot of societal pressures that contribute to that. Feelings of being judged and judgments we make about others and not wanting to be like them come into play there too but hard and not possible are different things. I think a thread just about how judgments, making and directed towards us would be an awesome spin off but I don't know where it would fit if we look beyond parenting to the effect of our lives and selves.


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## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *limabean*
> 
> I agree. But you and I are operating from different premises, which I hesitate to bring up because you've said a couple of times that you're not interested in discussing the aspect of whether this mother's behavior constituted abuse.
> 
> ...


Thanks for clarifying. I agree about the variation in context.

As for debating the mother's behavior, I mostly didn't want to get bogged down in defending myself and my impressions of the event. I was just after some advice as to handle myself and the situation. But this event definitely made me (and others around me) really upset and uncomfortable, which is why actually agree with Zenaviva that it may be a good idea to reflect on what our ideas and definitions are of "verbal abuse."

What was it about this event that triggered me? Everyone was weighing in on their views of what constitutes verbal abuse, and it made me remember that famous Anais Nin quote: "We don't see things as they are. We see things as we are." So much goes into how we perceive these things.

I did an online search of the "verbal abuse," and the only definitions I could find were extremely sweeping. I understand the concern about using the term liberally because in some situations it can sound inflammatory. Not every marital spat or child-scolding fits that mold. I do think that verbal abuse definitely exists, though, but I need to reflect a little more on my own definition of it, as well it was about this particular encounter that crossed the line for me.

So yes, let's go ahead and have that conversation. I'm curious what others think. When does someone cross the line between say something jerky when they're in a bad mood . . . and outright verbal abuse? Tentatively reflecting, part of my issue was how long the encounter dragged on. When I say something stupid to my kids, I'm usually not persisting with the matter because even in my worst moods, I'm actually regretting what I'm saying *while* I'm saying it.

But I'll have to give the matter a little more thought.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

I don't want to attack your perception of what you saw. It was over the line for you (and apparently for several people around you), and that assessment is good enough for me. I love your Anais Nin quote -- that probably played into my reaction, because the mother's quote that you posted is something similar to what has come out of my own mouth on my worst day, and I certainly don't think I'm an abusive mother. It's scary to think that someone could see a moment in my life (like those 2 women on the escalator I mentioned earlier) and label me Abusive, or Bad Mother.

But you know what? Those judgements, deserved or not, are a risk we all take when we are in public, and I think it's eye-opening to think about how much strangers do notice when we're out and about, and to consider how they might perceive our speech/actions.

So it might not even be a "does this fit the legal, prosecutable definition of abuse" thing, but just an "is this how you want people in your community to think of you" thing.


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## zenaviva (Jun 22, 2013)

I'll just make a quick comment that's kind of a tangent... I am in a caregiving relationship with my spouse. People don't generally know that, it's not like he LOOKS disabled. Due to his brain injury, he has trouble regulating his emotions, and he is often short or rude, or even has outbursts. These happen in public sometimes. I imagine it's been on more than one occasion that passerby thought that he was abusive, or that I was passive or possibly abused or whatever. I've taken caregiver training and am pretty aware of when to react and when to let a situation go, etc. I'm not saying at ALL that this is the norm for between-adult-interactions, but just saying that yes, it is the case that sometimes the situation is not what a casual observer sees from the outside in.

On one occasion, when I was heavily pregnant, we were in Epcot (had a babysitter for the kids, so it was just us) and were waiting in line for a snack. DH was in a great mood (really, really rare for him... it's usually a battle to get him out of the house, much less Disney!!) when he made some offhanded comment to me that someone else overheard. I didn't even register what he said as being rude (it's almost like Tourette's that he has, he swears a lot, etc.) but they turned around and started telling him off. He got out of line immediately so as not to bother the people in it anymore, and we ended up having to leave right away. He was absolutely crushed, and me being really hormonal at the time due to the pregnancy just burst into tears because what was supposed to be a once-in-practically-never opportunity for a date night out, was ruined like that. The stranger? I bet she was really well-meaning. I have no hostility towards her, but it was just really cruddy the way that turned out. Haven't gone on a date since. I'm thinking I should carry around "disclaimer cards" to hand out to people in the future. You know, like the ones that say, "my child is not a brat, he's autistic" ones? It'd be like, "My husband is not a jerk or an abuser, he has a brain injury, thanks for your understanding." Etc. I don't know if it's a good idea or not, but maybe it'd work. Maybe not. Meh.


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## PrimordialMind (May 4, 2013)

OP, i didnt mean it as a judgment, only an assessment. I think that we all have the ability to assess if it is a normal, everyday occurrence vs a rare thing. I know that we're taught to always remain neutral, but if we really listen and pay attention to the parties involved, its not that difficult to figure out if this is normal for them or not. This is why i shared the story i did--to show an example of when its a normal occurrence. I think the biggest red flags are when the parent is doing it matter-of-factly--there doesnt appear to be much concern over other people's reactions, they just keep doing it, the tone of their voice is more even keel than someone who verbally abuses rarely (because its become a normal part of their speech), and the child is also more likely to turn inward than outward (they are used to the abuse and since it usually happens when no one else is around, they are conditioned to not act out to get attention).

So, in the case of the OP's story, the fact that the mother kept going on and on and not caring that other people were staring and even reacting shows that its more than likely a common occurrence. She doesnt have the natural shame that should rear its head in a situation like that. In the personal stories PPs have shared there is the common theme of saying a few words or sentences, feeling bad either because of other people's reactions or simply because of natural shame and then not repeating the behavior. You see the difference? They probably also didnt have an even tone since they're not used to speaking that way, and their child probably reacts strongly to the words, crying loudly or screaming or another form of acting out. In the case of the child the OP talked about, it sounds like he was crying quietly and trying to disappear--a clear sign that he is used to the abuse.

Maybe its clearer to me because of working in the public around kids for several years, so i have enough experience to notice the differences. When I think about it, though, i think it has more to do with trusting my instincts. I'm not afraid to go with my gut reaction and notice how something makes me feel on an intuitive level. OP, it sounds like you're afraid of trusting your own instincts and feelings, for the sake of not being "judgmental" (you even used that term when it comes to assessing the situation, which shows how scared you are of doing it). The only way to truly know how to react is by listening to yourself, which means you need to be willing to step out of the neutral zone, stop feeling afraid of judging, so that your true feelings and instincts can shine through. If you're constantly uptight then you're not going to be able to trust yourself. Trusting your instincts is very important in a case like this because you will be better able to assess if it would be good to try to distract the mother or help her feel better so she stops hurting her kid or leaving the situation alone since you've assessed that this is more than likely a common occurrence. You can also be able to assess if you should call the authorities or not.


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## Turquesa (May 30, 2007)

I just wanted to thank you moms for sharing your background. It provides insight into these posts that makes discussions so much more valuable. For the most part, I've shied away from the parenting forum because sensitivities run high in here as we struggle to do our best. The creepy thing about that incident is that if we all succumbed to our lowest base nature, we'd be capanle of the same.


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## demeter888 (Jan 18, 2013)

In the situation you described, I would move on about my business. I could not think of a way to confront the woman without it traumatizing the child much more deeply. I would go home and cry for that boy, then look for a way of being a child advocate under better circumstances. Some battles just have to be left for a better day.

Now, however, if there was any way I could get that woman alone or away from the kid for a few, I'd try to get her information and explain that her behavior was abusive and not OK.


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## zenaviva (Jun 22, 2013)

What do you mean, that you'd try to get her information? Like what, her name and address and phone number? What purpose would that serve? Not trying to be rude, just curious.


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## PrimordialMind (May 4, 2013)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Turquesa*
> 
> The creepy thing about that incident is that if we all succumbed to our lowest base nature, we'd be capanle of the same.


I dont believe everyone's lowest base nature is to be verbally abusive. I believe thats only the case if we have unresolved issues from being abused ourselves.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *zenaviva*
> 
> What do you mean, that you'd try to get her information? Like what, her name and address and phone number? What purpose would that serve? Not trying to be rude, just curious.


Yes, i would happily hand out my 'details' to some random stranger....


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