# In the case that a child is not in a car seat...



## krisnic (Dec 16, 2004)

Who do you call? Yesterday I witnessed two children (about 3 and 2) sitting in the back seat of a car. One was sitting in an adults lap, and the other just in the seat. Our law is 8 years old for a booster here. But I didn't have the local police dept number and I didn't know if it warranted a 911 call.


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## KayleeZoo (Apr 8, 2003)

911

A 2 or 3 yo who is not restrained in an appropriate seat is in danger of losing their life.

I've called 911 several times for exactly the same reason, and the dispatcher has always told me it was good that I called.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

911, or in Washington it's 1-800-bucklup.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

I would not call. A 2 or 3 year old who is IN a seat is in danger of losing their life, just by virtue of being in a moving vehicle. Please, do not clog up 911 with non-emergencies.


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## rere (Apr 21, 2005)

I think it really depends where you live.I see this all the time but there is no way calling 911 is going to do anything.They're too busy for that to be considered an emergency.

Maybe you can call the non-emergency number and ask if there is anything to be done in that situation.


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## Porcelain Interior (Feb 8, 2008)

Apparently there is some disagreement about whether this constitutes an emergency.

I would call your local police department's non-emergency number and ask what they think.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

It constitutes an emergency in every state I've lived in. Just because you don't think it's an emergency (nor the parents apparently) doesn't make it so.


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## rere (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
It constitutes an emergency in every state I've lived in. Just because you don't think it's an emergency (nor the parents apparently) doesn't make it so.

It's not that I don't think it's an emergency I just know that the police here don't have the time to treat it as one.


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## fek&fuzz (Jun 19, 2005)

Perhaps you could just follow them, and then if they are in an accident you could call 911.







I would call 911 for that. Our police just sent out an email with photos of woman whose car had been hit by a drunk driver (broad daylight, back road) with her 3 kids in the car all in their appropriate seats. Car was scarily crushed. Kids were fine.

I'd hate to think someone wouldn't call about kids not in seats because they don't think it's an emergency and then 5 minutes later see that same car plowed into and the kids fly out the window.


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## LittleBlessings (May 26, 2008)

I would call the police non emergency number and give then the plate number of the car.

Its not that i do not think it is an emergency but there are emergencys were someone needs help ASAP and you would just be holding up the line


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Which is why we should all have the police non-emergency dispatch number in our cellphones (those with cellphones). However, this is a situation that merits calling 911 if you don't have the non-emergency number ready to hand. Particularly if you're in an area with a really busy emergency system because that means there's probably more of a chance of them getting into an accident.


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## ChetMC (Aug 27, 2005)

It may not even be illegal. In some areas a child restraint is not required in the case of occasional transport by a party other than the parents or guardian.

Where we used to live this was recently changed, but up until a year ago, it would be legal if the person driving the car was a friend giving you lift for example. It's kind of like not requiring child restraints in taxi-cabs.

I was actually disappointed when the law was changed. I don't drive, and on occasion, I've gotten stuck somewhere. I'd hate to have to walk home in a blinding snowstorm with a baby because they pulled the buses off the road, and it would be illegal for somebody to give us a ride home.


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## fek&fuzz (Jun 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ChetMC* 
It may not even be illegal. In some areas a child restraint is not required in the case of occasional transport by a party other than the parents or guardian.

Where we used to live this was recently changed, but up until a year ago, it would be legal if the person driving the car was a friend giving you lift for example. It's kind of like not requiring child restraints in taxi-cabs.

I was actually disappointed when the law was changed. I don't drive, and on occasion, I've gotten stuck somewhere. I'd hate to have to walk home in a blinding snowstorm with a baby because they pulled the buses off the road, and it would be illegal for somebody to give us a ride home.

So should it be legal for everyone all the time? In that case would you actually walk home or would you call a friend and risk getting a ticket? (I don't say risk getting in an accident, because that risk existed before the law changed)


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## ChetMC (Aug 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fek&fuzz* 
So should it be legal for everyone all the time? In that case would you actually walk home or would you call a friend and risk getting a ticket? (I don't say risk getting in an accident, because that risk existed before the law changed)

I don't think it should be. However, I don't think the person who drives us home in an emergency should be breaking the law to do it, and the law used to protect people who helped us out in desperate situations.

In one situation that happened to us, we were at a mall and a horrible snowstorm started. They closed the mall, and pulled the buses off the roads. DH actually convinced a bus driver to take an alternate route back to the garage and drop us off about 200 metres from our house, but had he not been able to do this, it would have take us three hours to walk home because of the weather (as it was it took us 15 minutes to walk 200m and I feel twice carrying the baby). We were not properly dressed, and neither was the baby. I'm certain that the baby would have suffered frostbite, so I would have been prepared to have somebody drive us home without the baby properly restrained... and I don't think we should have to ask the person to break the law to do it.

Another time, I got a ride home when I came down with the flu. I was throwing up and was too dizzy to stand. Again, I felt that an unrestrained child was the lesser of the evils. With the law as it is now I'd have to call a cab, and potentially wait up to 30 minutes, or ask somebody to break the law.

Or what about if DH was at work and I needed a neighbour to drive us to the emergency room? Our carseats are in the car with DH.

Now, I suspect that there were more people taking advantage of the law than people in a desperate circumstance who had no better option. But, I think that forcing people to call cabs when they need to get somewhere fast and don't have a carseat is wrong and they could have left some vagary in the writing to allow for situations like I've described above.


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## fek&fuzz (Jun 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ChetMC* 
I don't think it should be. However, I don't think the person who drives us home in an emergency should be breaking the law to do it, and the law used to protect people who helped us out in desperate situations.

In one situation that happened to us, we were at a mall and a horrible snowstorm started. They closed the mall, and pulled the buses off the roads. DH actually convinced a bus driver to take an alternate route back to the garage and drop us off about 200 metres from our house, but had he not been able to do this, it would have take us three hours to walk home because of the weather (as it was it took us 15 minutes to walk 200m and I feel twice carrying the baby). We were not properly dressed, and neither was the baby. I'm certain that the baby would have suffered frostbite, so I would have been prepared to have somebody drive us home without the baby properly restrained... and I don't think we should have to ask the person to break the law to do it.

Another time, *I got a ride home when I came down with the flu. I was throwing up and was too dizzy to stand. Again, I felt that an unrestrained child was the lesser of the evils.* With the law as it is now I'd have to call a cab, and potentially wait up to 30 minutes, or ask somebody to break the law.

Or what about if DH was at work and *I needed a neighbour to drive us to the emergency room?* Our carseats are in the car with DH.

Now, I suspect that there were more people taking advantage of the law than people in a desperate circumstance who had no better option. But, I think that forcing people to call cabs when they need to get somewhere fast and don't have a carseat is wrong and they could have left some vagary in the writing to allow for situations like I've described above.

I would have called an ambulance in those situations. And I would try to get my hands on some extra car seats to have in the house for emergencies.


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## ChetMC (Aug 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fek&fuzz* 
I would have called an ambulance in those situations. And I would try to get my hands on some extra car seats to have in the house for emergencies.

Ambulances are not chauffeur services. It would take time to wait for an ambulance, the child or children would still not be restrained in the ambulance (the same as if I called a cab), and if the ambulance company didn't refuse to take us on the grounds that people having a stroke actually require their services when we don't, it would cost us upward of $200. At least a cab would only be $15 or $30. Plus, we have three, soon to be four kids, not many people have a vehicle that can fit three or four carseats. You need some serious planning to get three or four carseats into a vehicle.

I'm not trying to be difficult. We're fussy about carseats. Our older kids rode rear facing until they were nearly three. We've chucked out four $300 Britax seats after minor car accidents. We take carseats on airplanes and have hauled them on vacation to Europe and Africa. But sometimes there are extenuating circumstances.


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## KayleeZoo (Apr 8, 2003)

Quote:

not many people have a vehicle that can fit three or four carseats
where did you get this info from? i know a lot of people (couple dozen, at least) who have 3-4 car seats in their vehicles. just seems really far from the norm, from what we've experienced.


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## ChetMC (Aug 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KayleeZoo* 
where did you get this info from? i know a lot of people (couple dozen, at least) who have 3-4 car seats in their vehicles. just seems really far from the norm, from what we've experienced.

I mean a random neighbour who might drive a compact, a sedan, a hatchback or a small SUV, and whatever three or four extra carseats we could have hanging around the house just for emergencies. You can fit three Radians in nearly anything, but three Radians cost $900.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ChetMC* 
I mean a random neighbour who might drive a compact, a sedan, a hatchback or a small SUV, and whatever three or four extra carseats we could have hanging around the house just for emergencies. You can fit three Radians in nearly anything, but three Radians cost $900.

Well, $800, but I see your point









Three Sceneras will fit in just about anything too...granted they will only fit kids up until 3 or so, but if it's a dire emergency a 3 year old can take one ride in a booster...


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## rhiandmoi (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *krisnic* 
Who do you call? Yesterday I witnessed two children (about 3 and 2) sitting in the back seat of a car. One was sitting in an adults lap, and the other just in the seat. Our law is 8 years old for a booster here. But I didn't have the local police dept number and I didn't know if it warranted a 911 call.

Here if you called the non-emergency line they would transfer you to the 911 dispatch for that. But this brings up an important point - people that carry cell phones should program in the police non-emergency number. For anyone that lives in San Jose, CA the number is 408-277-8900.

While I am thinking about it, I am also going to program the non-emergency line for the city where I work.

I almost never call 911, but I call the non-emergency line all the time, and often get transferred to the 911 dispatcher. I figure this is good because that way a trained police dispatcher has made the decision that whatever I am calling in about is an emergency.


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## rhiandmoi (Apr 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ChetMC* 
I'm not trying to be difficult. We're fussy about carseats. Our older kids rode rear facing until they were nearly three. We've chucked out four $300 Britax seats after minor car accidents. We take carseats on airplanes and have hauled them on vacation to Europe and Africa. But sometimes there are extenuating circumstances.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *ChetMC* 
I mean a random neighbour who might drive a compact, a sedan, a hatchback or a small SUV, and whatever three or four extra carseats we could have hanging around the house just for emergencies. You can fit three Radians in nearly anything, but three Radians cost $900.

I think this a bit strange, that you would want your emergency carseats to be Radians, but you regularly move your kids all around town using public buses, where I once nearly got knocked down while holding a baby by an old lady with her groceries, and that was while the bus wasn't even moving.


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

I was a volunteer EMT about 10 years ago. We did carry a carseat so that we could restrain a non-critical pediatric patient if necessary. If the patient had to be lying on the cot then they would be restrained by the straps (pediatric or no). The only people flying around the rig willy-nilly were crew, and we took that chance upon ourselves when we signed up.

If someone needs to go to the emergency room, then that is an emergency worthy of an ambulance. That's what they're there for. We would much prefer you call us out and receive care during your trip than have a frantic, nervous, and uncomfortable drive to the hospital in private vehicle.

If you're going home because you have the flu, then no, an ambulance is not appropriate. But if I was throwing up and couldn't even stand up, I'd probably want to go to the hospital. I don't think I've ever been that sick.


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## ChetMC (Aug 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rhiandmoi* 
I think this a bit strange, that you would want your emergency carseats to be Radians, but you regularly move your kids all around town using public buses, where I once nearly got knocked down while holding a baby by an old lady with her groceries, and that was while the bus wasn't even moving.

Our emergency carseats are not Radians. We don't actually have emergency carseats. Our regular carseats are Radians though... and I'm familiar with trying to fit three carseats into various compact and midsized vehicles. And now that we're moving overseas and expecting a forth child we've opted to go car-free rather than even go down the road of "what can you fit four carseats into."

The point is that, another poster suggested we have emergency carseats for when DH has the car at work with our seats in it. My point was that IF we collected three or four random carseats to use for an emergency it's unlikely that our collection would into fit into whatever vehicle a neighbour or family member would have if they were giving us a ride in an desperate situation. Getting three or four carseats into anything takes some planning.

As for using buses, any time I've been on a bus with kids the driver has required that all small children be seated, and that anybody holding a baby be seated as well.


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## ChetMC (Aug 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paquerette* 
I was a volunteer EMT about 10 years ago. We did carry a carseat so that we could restrain a non-critical pediatric patient if necessary. If the patient had to be lying on the cot then they would be restrained by the straps (pediatric or no). The only people flying around the rig willy-nilly were crew, and we took that chance upon ourselves when we signed up.

If someone needs to go to the emergency room, then that is an emergency worthy of an ambulance. That's what they're there for. We would much prefer you call us out and receive care during your trip than have a frantic, nervous, and uncomfortable drive to the hospital in private vehicle.

If you're going home because you have the flu, then no, an ambulance is not appropriate. But if I was throwing up and couldn't even stand up, I'd probably want to go to the hospital. I don't think I've ever been that sick.









You have one carseat.... but we have three, soon to be four kids, under 40 pounds.

By not being able to stand up, I should have clarified that I couldn't stand up long enough to wait for a bus or a cab.

My point is that I can take a cab in an emergency and it's legal for the kids to be unrestrained. It's even legal when it's not an emergency! BUT, if I have a friend or family member drive us when it's the faster, cheaper and more convenient way to deal with a desperate circumstance that is illegal (with the new law where we used to live) and I don't think should be.

And isn't it better to get a ride to the emergency room with somebody else if that's faster and you don't need the attention of an EMT? I'm thinking somebody stepped on a nail, got fish hook stuck in their leg, is suffering a retinal detachment... things like that.


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

One carseat on one rig... we could call for assistance and get others, police assistance, etc. Assuming that all of your children aren't injured, what about you and the injured child going to the ER while the friend or family member stays at your house with the others? I wouldn't want to drag non-sick kids to an ER and have to stress about keeping them out of stuff, keeping them from touching stuff, etc while worrying about the sick one besides. I just had a family member pick up c.diff in the hospital so I'm pretty touchy about them at the moment anyway.









Maybe it's different here. In most of those circumstances I'd be going to urgent care instead, or not at all. I'd deal with fishhooks and stepping on nails here at home, rather than have to fight off vaccinations and risk MRSA. I think the only things I'd go to the hospital for are so dire that I'd be in no clear head to drive safely myself, and the ambulance crews would rather transport me & my kids rather than have my frantic self crash into a tree or innocent bystanders and have even more of a catastrophe.


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## OkiMom (Nov 21, 2007)

Unfortunately its not illegal here (I don't live in the states) so I see it all the time. It makes me cringe.
If I was back in the states I would probably call the non-emergency line.


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## ChetMC (Aug 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paquerette* 
One carseat on one rig... we could call for assistance and get others, police assistance, etc. Assuming that all of your children aren't injured, what about you and the injured child going to the ER while the friend or family member stays at your house with the others? I wouldn't want to drag non-sick kids to an ER and have to stress about keeping them out of stuff, keeping them from touching stuff, etc while worrying about the sick one besides. I just had a family member pick up c.diff in the hospital so I'm pretty touchy about them at the moment anyway.









Maybe it's different here. In most of those circumstances I'd be going to urgent care instead, or not at all. I'd deal with fishhooks and stepping on nails here at home, rather than have to fight off vaccinations and risk MRSA. I think the only things I'd go to the hospital for are so dire that I'd be in no clear head to drive safely myself, and the ambulance crews would rather transport me & my kids rather than have my frantic self crash into a tree or innocent bystanders and have even more of a catastrophe.

I don't really feel like we're arguing the point...

However, where we lived in Canada we didn't have an urgent care facility. Our emergency room was divided into two areas though, one was probably what you would call "urgent care."

The emergency room was a six minute drive by car from our house. An ambulance would take longer. And there are only so many ambulances. I don't think it's right to tie up an ambulance (or an ambulance and two police cars) because I don't drive while somebody else could be having a stroke or a heart attack. And if somebody drove us to emergency because myself or one of the kids needed immediate care, there would be another adult with us to help with the kids until DH met us.

But I listed three scenarios where I felt the need could warrant transport without a carseat: an illness where I simply needed to return home quickly, exposure to extreme weather, and seeking medical care that needed to be delivered in a timely fashion. In all of these situations I could call a cab, wait for the cab, and pay for the cab to stay legal... or I could save money and time (sometimes a lot of time) if somebody else gave us a ride. We could debate how to handle a fishhook in the leg, or whether I should go to the ER with a retinal detachment by myself in an ambulance, while which ever neighbour I can get a hold of watches our three children under the age of five, but what I'm saying is that in general, a person can be faced with situations where child restraints might not be the number one concern.

Like I said, we take carseats very seriously. We've definitely incurred some legitimate cost and inconvenience with our seats when others wouldn't have bothered. But I don't want to be so blinded by carseat safety that I lose the ability to look at the entire situation and figure what is best overall.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ChetMC* 
I don't really feel like we're arguing the point...

However, where we lived in Canada we didn't have an urgent care facility. Our emergency room was divided into two areas though, one was probably what you would call "urgent care."

The emergency room was a six minute drive by car from our house. An ambulance would take longer. And there are only so many ambulances. I don't think it's right to tie up an ambulance (or an ambulance and two police cars) because I don't drive while somebody else could be having a stroke or a heart attack. And if somebody drove us to emergency because myself or one of the kids needed immediate care, there would be another adult with us to help with the kids until DH met us.

But I listed three scenarios where I felt the need could warrant transport without a carseat: an illness where I simply needed to return home quickly, exposure to extreme weather, and seeking medical care that needed to be delivered in a timely fashion. In all of these situations I could call a cab, wait for the cab, and pay for the cab to stay legal... or I could save money and time (sometimes a lot of time) if somebody else gave us a ride. We could debate how to handle a fishhook in the leg, or whether I should go to the ER with a retinal detachment by myself in an ambulance, while which ever neighbour I can get a hold of watches our three children under the age of five, but what I'm saying is that in general, a person can be faced with situations where child restraints might not be the number one concern.

*Like I said, we take carseats very seriously. We've definitely incurred some legitimate cost and inconvenience with our seats when others wouldn't have bothered. But I don't want to be so blinded by carseat safety that I lose the ability to look at the entire situation and figure what is best overall*.


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## Sailor (Jun 13, 2006)

I'm surprised anyone would call 911 for something like this.

Maybe this is going to sound heartless, but I'm of the "live and let live" mentality. I've seen kids without car seats in America, and didn't think twice about it. Who knows what the circumstances were surrounding that family. Maybe they're just irressponsible or maybe they had extenuating circumstances or maybe it's something else altogether. But, it's their business. It doesn't pose a threat to anyone else, after all.

I get that car seats save lives. But, frankly, I spend half the year traveling to countries where hardly anyone uses car seats. Where people stand their 2 year old up in front of them on their mo-ped(sp?), and weave in and out of traffic. So, someone not using a carseat in America doesn't phase me.

Would I do that? No.

But, I also think that calling 911 on something like this is not going to save anyone's life. If the family had an extenuating circumstance, they're unlikely to do it again. If they don't care about safety precautions, then even getting a ticket won't stop them.


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## StephandOwen (Jun 22, 2004)

I don't often call the police about car seat issues (even though they bug me). But tonight I did. I was driving home from work tonight and in the lane next to me (this is a big 7-8 lane road) was a car with a woman and a child (about 3-4 years old, I'd guess). The kid was STANDING in the front passenger seat! As if that wasn't bad enough the mom had to brake hard, forcing the little girl to jerk forward- and hit the windshield. The mom then proceeded to SCREAM at the little girl, who proceeded to stand on the seat while the mom drove off.

Lovely.

I did call the non-emergency number for that but I don't know if any good came of it. I gave as much info as I could and they said they'd try to find her.


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