# A little bit of obedience, please!



## apmommy76 (Sep 3, 2004)

Okay...I believe in gentle discipline--totally, but some days I think my 4.5 year old is a monster!!!

What I mean is that I need for him to pitch in more around the house--you know, pick up after himself, help set the table, etc...

The whole "can you help mommy" thing that used to work has worn off. Now he often says, "No thanks."

I can't phrase it like it's a choice if it's not really a choice. I admit that sometimes I would appreciate just having him obey (shudder).

This is NOT an authoritarian house at all. Trust me, but I'm tired of the constant excuses, etc when I tell/ask him to do something that needs to be done immediately.

Thoughts? How do you deal with this?? I want him to be able to express his thoughts and feelings, etc...I want him to be an individual, but it's a fine line...

I just want a little compliance regarding the stuff around the house. He listens well while we're out but hates picking up, etc.


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## summerleaf (Sep 17, 2006)

Can you make a game out of it? Like maybe set a timer and say "let's race and see how much we can put away before the bell rings" ?


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## apmommy76 (Sep 3, 2004)

I've done all that.







I'm a former elementary school teacher so I have MANY tricks up my sleeves.

He's just plain not wanting to comply and I think it's become a power struggle when that's certainly not what I want.

We are currently trying to sell our house so I can't be as relaxed as I normally am about his stuff being out, etc...He really has to pick up before we leave because someone might come over while we're gone, etc..

Quote:


Originally Posted by *summerleaf* 
Can you make a game out of it? Like maybe set a timer and say "let's race and see how much we can put away before the bell rings" ?


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Here's what works at our house, ymmv. If something seems to be becoming a power struggle, I figure it's not about the thing we're struggling over (picking up). At least here, the struggles are generally over something stupid.

Often, the best thing for me to do is back off entirely and let it play out. Because of my own stubborness, I can only do this if in my own head, it's time limited. So I say to myself, for a week, I'm just going to pick up after my kid.

So dd walks off from her toys and I start to put them away. She wants me to join in the next thing and I say...I'll be able to in a minute, I'm picking this up now. Not mad or anything. Just modeling what I want her to do without nagging and being a pain in her butt.

In your case, is it possible that your ds doesn't want to move? And you've said we need to keep the house picked up so we can sell it....so if he doesn't pick up, you can't sell the house and therefore can't move?


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *apmommy76* 
Okay...I believe in gentle discipline--totally, but some days I think my 4.5 year old is a monster!!!

What I mean is that I need for him to pitch in more around the house--you know, pick up after himself, help set the table, etc...

The whole "can you help mommy" thing that used to work has worn off. Now he often says, "No thanks."

I can't phrase it like it's a choice if it's not really a choice. I admit that sometimes I would appreciate just having him obey (shudder).

Right. You can't phrase it as a choice if its not. In fact doing so is very unfair to your son.

I mean what is wrong with his answer?

I suggest saying something like "I need for you to pick up your toys right now"

and then "actively waiting" (the kind of waiting one does for an elevator) for it to be done.

If he refuses and you don't have time to wait him out, you can do it and tell him "I had to pick up your toys. That is your job and I don't like having to do it. Next time I expect you to pick up your toys.


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## apmommy76 (Sep 3, 2004)

yes, we're moving to a city where housing is much cheaper, so we'll be able to afford a pool (which he really wants).

Thank you for the advice. When I wrote last night I was feeling frustrated after a long day of, "I promise I'll do it later, Mommy."


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## apmommy76 (Sep 3, 2004)

Right. I didn't mean that I was phrasing it as a choice. I'm saying when I used to, he used to comply. It wasn't really a problem because he was in the "help mommy" stage. Now he's almsot 5 and doesn't fall for the "you're such a big helper" stuff.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
Right. You can't phrase it as a choice if its not. In fact doing so is very unfair to your son.

I mean what is wrong with his answer?

I suggest saying something like "I need for you to pick up your toys right now"

and then "actively waiting" (the kind of waiting one does for an elevator) for it to be done.

If he refuses and you don't have time to wait him out, you can do it and tell him "I had to pick up your toys. That is your job and I don't like having to do it. Next time I expect you to pick up your toys.


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## MsChatsAlot (Sep 8, 2005)

My ds is the same age. I have just sat down and explained that he is part of this family and being part of a family means he has to help out. He is old enough to help with things and it's not my responsibility to do it all for them. I have not presented it as an option...it is something he is expected to do. However, in the beginning, I did give them the option of which jobs they wanted to do. And once they fully ingrained one chore, then I slowly add another one.

Both of my kids have chores they are expected to do...putting clean dishes away, putting their dirty dishes into the sink, cleaning up their toys, sorting laundry and putting their own clothes away in their room. They know that it is part of their job as a member of the family and 98% of the time they do it willingly and joyfully.

I will not pick up their toys, it is their responsibility to do it. If they are unable or unwilling to accept the responsibility of caring for their toys, they don't have their toys anymore. Much like if I can't accept the responsibility for taking care of the vehicle and making sure it is maintained properly...I simply won't have it anymore.


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## apmommy76 (Sep 3, 2004)

I agree with this. I think I may have started too late though.

I think I waited too long to ask him to pitch in. I'll definitely ask my second child to pitch in earlier than I did with him.

We'll just keep working on it. Thanks to everyone for the advice.


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## MsChatsAlot (Sep 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *apmommy76* 
I agree with this. I think I may have started too late though.

I think I waited too long to ask him to pitch in. I'll definitely ask my second child to pitch in earlier than I did with him.

We'll just keep working on it. Thanks to everyone for the advice.

I too, started later with the oldest and earlier with the youngest. But both of my kids really like helping out and I've read that kids really do like to feeling like they are contriuting to the family and household. It gives them a sense of purpose and belonging. Start small and add more things over time.

You can also tell him that you now feel like he's old enough to learn about laundry...or dishes....or whatever. Picking up the toys won't be a novel thing or interesting to him....but if he realizes they have to be picked up or they will get broken or lost or thrown out, he may change his mind.


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

Quote:

I think I waited too long to ask him to pitch in. I'll definitely ask my second child to pitch in earlier than I did with him.

I reckon it's never too late to start to expect that kids help out a bit around the house, so don't think your ds1 has been left behind, okay? 4.5 is a good age to start to learn one skill at a time, properly. I like that idea, rather than giving children a list of things to do right from the start you begin with one & build from there.

Also, I think active waiting works well if you have clear boundaries that you are working within. It seems to work best if you remain neutral/positive in your attitude & don't loose patience. I find that difficult, sometimes.


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## hubris (Mar 8, 2003)

I hear ya! As much as I love the theory behind unconditional parenting, sometimes there are moments when I really need my child to just plain do what I ask him to do, you know? But mostly, I think that's *my* issue, not his.









Griff is turning 4 and sounds a lot like your son. He has always been pretty tidy, enjoys cleaning up the house, but lately he doesn't seem as entranced by the idea of helping mommy.

When Griff was 2, my DH was having trouble putting aside his own agenda and meeting Griff where he was. I came up with this three-step mental plan for DH, which worked amazingly for him. I asked him to stop and think to himself:
1. Does this have to be done?
2. If yes, does it have to be done NOW?
3. If yes, can it be done another way? Another time?

I'm finding that I now have to revisit my own three-step plan.







Often I want something done IMMEDIATELY...but usually, if I'm honest with myself, it doesn't actually have to be done right this second. And if my husband came to me and said "I need you to do this immediately," I'd be annoyed. I wouldn't want to do it. Dude, I'm typing here, can it wait? I'm sure Griffin - and your son - probably feel the same way.

So lately I've tried to be more gentle about it, take a breath, set aside my terribly-important agenda for a minute, and consider that he has an agenda, too. I might say to Griff, "I see this job that needs to be done. Let's make a plan for how we're going to get it done." Then he and I can agree on who does what and when. Usually our plan includes what (usually fun) thing we will do after we're done the work.


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

Flame away -------

What is wrong with his answer is that his momma asked him to do something-- you can be GD (try to understand where the child is coming form, not yell, not hit) and still excpet your children to do as they are asked. Heck they don't have to WANT to help -- i do a LOT of chorse i do NOT want to do -- but they need to do.

GD doesn't promise a child they won't have to do stuff they don't want to -- or that they won't have to obey the parents. it promises a non-violent home without threats, hitting, yelling and so on. It promises to respect the child has feeling and wants -- but there is no reason the child wants and feeling need to preclue the child obeying.

Quote:

"I had to pick up your toys. That is your job and I don't like having to do it. Next time I expect you to pick up your toys.
I do not see how that will help -- child says "well mom picked them up last time, if i wait she will this time too, asnd her not liking it sure doesn't effect me, i don't like it either."

4.5 is old enoughto start loosing stuff if he doesn't help out.

How about "If Momma has to pick up the train it is going int eh closet and you won't be able to play with it"

how about "if you don't have time to set the table for teh family then you don't have time to do X" (insert soemthing HE likes, CD, tv, whatever).

you don't have to yell, or be mean -- it can all be matter of the fact and clam -- but choices have consequences. it can be phrased that way too -- "you chose not to pick up your trains, momma had to do it, so they are in the closet and you can not play wiht them"

(and he is making a choice not to do what you ask -- set table, pick up toys -- so that choice should effect more than the momma is should effect the child too)

Flame away


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## apmommy76 (Sep 3, 2004)

Yeah, we do sports, gymnastics, etc...So there's often something fun at the end but he STILL doesn't want to cooperate and pick up. He even tells me straight up that he doesn't like picking up and that it's no fun..LOL but he DOES like mopping.


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## MsChatsAlot (Sep 8, 2005)

In my mind, having toys to play with are a priviledge, not a right. If my child wants to have toys, he needs to put them away or take care of them. If he doesn't, the toys are gone. It is really that simple.

I agree with someone above. I don't like doing dishes, yet I can't just leave them (unless of course, one of you knows about a dishes fairy that could come help.







)

You can tell him, son, here is your choice. You can choose to ENJOY picking up your toys and make it fun....or you can choose to dislike picking up your toys...but the toys will be picked up. Or, you can choose to have toys, but with that choice comes the responsibility of picking them up/taking care of them, or you can choose not have no toys and then there will be nothing to pick up.


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

Quote:

In my mind, having toys to play with are a priviledge, not a right. If my child wants to have toys, he needs to put them away or take care of them. If he doesn't, the toys are gone. It is really that simple.

I agree with someone above. I don't like doing dishes, yet I can't just leave them (unless of course, one of you knows about a dishes fairy that could come help. )

You can tell him, son, here is your choice. You can choose to ENJOY picking up your toys and make it fun....or you can choose to dislike picking up your toys...but the toys will be picked up. Or, you can choose to have toys, but with that choice comes the responsibility of picking them up/taking care of them, or you can choose not have no toys and then there will be nothing to pick up.
well said -- i like how you phrase it "you can choose to enjoy clean up tiem, or not, but it will happen"










so true of LIFE -- I can enjoy cooking dinner, or i can hate it -- but the family still needs dinner....and at dinner time, not "later when i feel like it"

Aimee


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aimee21972* 
Flame away -------

What is wrong with his answer is that his momma asked him to do something-- you can be GD (try to understand where the child is coming form, not yell, not hit) and still excpet your children to do as they are asked. Heck they don't have to WANT to help -- i do a LOT of chorse i do NOT want to do -- but they need to do.

GD doesn't promise a child they won't have to do stuff they don't want to -- or that they won't have to obey the parents. it promises a non-violent home without threats, hitting, yelling and so on. It promises to respect the child has feeling and wants -- but there is no reason the child wants and feeling need to preclue the child obeying.

I do not see how that will help -- child says "well mom picked them up last time, if i wait she will this time too, asnd her not liking it sure doesn't effect me, i don't like it either."

4.5 is old enoughto start loosing stuff if he doesn't help out.

How about "If Momma has to pick up the train it is going int eh closet and you won't be able to play with it"

how about "if you don't have time to set the table for teh family then you don't have time to do X" (insert soemthing HE likes, CD, tv, whatever).

you don't have to yell, or be mean -- it can all be matter of the fact and clam -- but choices have consequences. it can be phrased that way too -- "you chose not to pick up your trains, momma had to do it, so they are in the closet and you can not play wiht them"

(and he is making a choice not to do what you ask -- set table, pick up toys -- so that choice should effect more than the momma is should effect the child too)

Flame away

I'm not the least bit interested in flaming you and honestly find the invitation to bizarre.

Here's my take on this sort of advice. It reminds me of being tired from all night nursing and talking about it....looking for sympathy and maybe some ways to cope. Mostly I got advice about toughing my 4 month old up. Or implications that if I was just a meaner parent, I wouldn't be so tired I could barely function.

I didn't find that helpful. And honestly my internal reaction was a feigned, Oh my goodness, why didn't I think of that! I could just ignore her and sleep through it. Duh!

Sure, we can go ahead and punish our kids for not doing what we want. We can even call it a consequence so it sounds like they are choosing it.

Personally, I got lots of Waldorfy ideas about how to model what I needed from my kids. Looked to see what need they were expressing. Looked at how I was cooperating in setting up a power struggle. Asked myself what hills I was willing to die on. Looked to reinforce our family connections. Read a lot of different ideas. Focused on keeping everyone physically and emotionally safe.

I quit hanging out with the moms who have said "Sometime you just have to be mean to them." [literally] I spent a lot of time thinking about what was influencing me.

The option to throw up your hand, declare "I am the mother" and steal their toys is always there.

I guess I just figured that if the person asking for advice wanted to do that, she wouldn't need to ask for advice.


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## apmommy76 (Sep 3, 2004)

K...now my 4 year old is saying that picking up is not good for your body and that it will make your brain stop working!!! LOL


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## apmommy76 (Sep 3, 2004)

Right...I come from a teaching background where the child is considered "defiant" and will be written up if they don't comply.

Obviously that's not the kind of parent I am and I really do try to stay away from consequences such as just taking the toys away, etc...I try not to be punitive.

And yes, you are exactly right. I posted here because I was venting and because I was hoping to get some ideas I hadn't thought of yet. The typical consequence would be to take the toys away that he doesn't pick up, etc...I get that but was looking for another more GENTLE answer.

Jan

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
I'm not the least bit interested in flaming you and honestly find the invitation to bizarre.

Here's my take on this sort of advice. It reminds me of being tired from all night nursing and talking about it....looking for sympathy and maybe some ways to cope. Mostly I got advice about toughing my 4 month old up. Or implications that if I was just a meaner parent, I wouldn't be so tired I could barely function.

I didn't find that helpful. And honestly my internal reaction was a feigned, Oh my goodness, why didn't I think of that! I could just ignore her and sleep through it. Duh!

Sure, we can go ahead and punish our kids for not doing what we want. We can even call it a consequence so it sounds like they are choosing it.

Personally, I got lots of Waldorfy ideas about how to model what I needed from my kids. Looked to see what need they were expressing. Looked at how I was cooperating in setting up a power struggle. Asked myself what hills I was willing to die on. Looked to reinforce our family connections. Read a lot of different ideas. Focused on keeping everyone physically and emotionally safe.

I quit hanging out with the moms who have said "Sometime you just have to be mean to them." [literally] I spent a lot of time thinking about what was influencing me.

The option to throw up your hand, declare "I am the mother" and steal their toys is always there.

I guess I just figured that if the person asking for advice wanted to do that, she wouldn't need to ask for advice.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *apmommy76* 
K...now my 4 year old is saying that picking up is not good for your body and that it will make your brain stop working!!! LOL

Oh my goodness that's funny.







That does explain a lot about what's happened to my brain though...


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## apmommy76 (Sep 3, 2004)

yes, he's too smart for his own good!!







He comes up with all kinds of excuses!


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

It has been helpful with my kids to sit down, reconnect, and make a plan in situations like this. They really like to be engaged with me, and they like when we are going to do something together as a team. So I approach cleaning up the same way that I do any project. Just like I might say, "Lets make a plan to make a pie today." I would say, "Lets make a plan to straighten up the livingroom today."

I very rarely (almost never) ask that anything be done "right now." I will get their attention, and say, "Picking the toys is part of the list for today. We need to get it done within such-and-such a time frame. Lets make a plan." If they do say, "I'll do it later." I insist on knowing exactly when "later" is going to be. I will say, "Do you mean in 10 minutes? Or do you mean after lunch?" And then I set the timer, and I'll say, "Okay -- when the timer beeps its your reminder about picking up the toys. Got it?"

Another important emphasis is to present chores within the context of the other things we have on the schedule. They understand that in order to progress through our "plan" for the day, we have to complete one activity before we move to the next.

Lists are useful too, even if they can't read. For some kinds of kids, the chance to cross something off a list is sort of satisfying, kwim? Some types of adults too (me, for instance!)







I often write down a short list, and say, "This is what needs to happen before dinner." And put it on the table for everyone to see. Usually we just check things off, but stickers for marking things off can be fun too.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

FYI -- the approach I use is identical to the approach I used while managing employees in a retail setting for 6 years. People like to be part of the planning process.


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## apmommy76 (Sep 3, 2004)

Yes, I was thinking of making a list because I was "list crazy" when I was teaching...LOL







Maybe I need to take the time to do that finally. Thanks to everyone who has responded.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

When faced with an issue like this I try to keep in mind that it is my job to teach my children--by guiding and example--how to clean up, not to force them to do it with threats and punishments (or "consequences"). If my child does not want to help with clean up I try to figure out why and solve that problem. Are my expectations clear? Is the task too overwhelming? Do they need more guidance? It can help to sit down and come up with a plan for clean up together. Would it help if we put away one toy before bring out another? Do they have too many toys? My kids have come up with some helpful ideas--they volunteered to donate some toys so that their rooms would be less cluttered, and my son asked for shelves in his closet.

eta-mamaduck's suggestions are great.


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## Niamh (Jan 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aimee21972* 
What is wrong with his answer is that his momma asked him to do something-- you can be GD (try to understand where the child is coming form, not yell, not hit) and still excpet your children to do as they are asked. Heck they don't have to WANT to help -- i do a LOT of chorse i do NOT want to do -- but they need to do.

GD doesn't promise a child they won't have to do stuff they don't want to -- or that they won't have to obey the parents. it promises a non-violent home without threats, hitting, yelling and so on. It promises to respect the child has feeling and wants -- but there is no reason the child wants and feeling need to preclue the child obeying.

I do not see how that will help -- child says "well mom picked them up last time, if i wait she will this time too, asnd her not liking it sure doesn't effect me, i don't like it either."

4.5 is old enoughto start loosing stuff if he doesn't help out.

How about "If Momma has to pick up the train it is going int eh closet and you won't be able to play with it"

how about "if you don't have time to set the table for teh family then you don't have time to do X" (insert soemthing HE likes, CD, tv, whatever).

you don't have to yell, or be mean -- it can all be matter of the fact and clam -- but choices have consequences. it can be phrased that way too -- "you chose not to pick up your trains, momma had to do it, so they are in the closet and you can not play wiht them"

(and he is making a choice not to do what you ask -- set table, pick up toys -- so that choice should effect more than the momma is should effect the child too)

Flame away

I'm not sure why you'd come on to a forum and post something that is opposite to what the forum stands for and invite flaming. At any point didn't you think "This isn't the kind of advice someone on a GD forum would be looking for. I'll back away from the keyboard."?

You said that GD is trying to understand where the child is coming from. Expecting obedience-not usually in the top ten goals of a parent who GDs- is not trying to understand where the child is coming from. Obedience is-at its core-about control. That's not the dynamic I want in my relationship with my child.

To be honest, I'm confused by your post-you seem to be talking in circles. Maybe my understanding of obedience is different than yours. For example "but there is no reason the child wants and feeling need to preclue the child obeying" is confusing. OF COURSE the child's wants and needs can and will preclude the child obeying. Obeying is about putting your wants and feelings aside and doing as you are told. Not very conducive to GD.

Your reasoning that the child will think "well mom picked them up last time, if i wait she will this time too, asnd her not liking it sure doesn't effect me, i don't like it either." is an adversarial thought approach and can't help the situation.

You say "you don't have to yell, or be mean -- it can all be matter of the fact and clam (sic)". Matter of fact and calm can still be very far from GD. My mom was very matter of fact and calm-in fact I hardly remember hearing her ever yell at us kids-but she was NOT GD. Matter of factly and calmly taking your children's possessions away from them is not GD.

I think the OP got some wonderful advice. GD is about taking time that we don't feel like we have to raise a better person. It's harder and more frustrating and more time consuming to work with a child, but it raises a child that is more respectful of other people. That's worth it to me.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Aimee's post was not precisely the "opposite of what this forum stands for." It was at the stricter end of the GD continuum, for certain. But it was not off the wall by any means. I am glad she spoke up.

I wonder if we could mentally switch the term "obedience" to the term "cooperation." I think that both Aimee and the OP are talking about a concept that falls closer to helping kids to cooperate than it does to blind obedience.


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## Niamh (Jan 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
Aimee's post was not precisely the "opposite of what this forum stands for." It was at the stricter end of the GD continuum, for certain. But it was not off the wall by any means. I am glad she spoke up.

I wonder if we could mentally switch the term "obedience" to the term "cooperation." I think that both Aimee and the OP are talking about a concept that falls closer to helping kids to cooperate than it does to blind obedience.

See, this is the problem with terms like 'GD' and 'AP'. For me, GD means something very different than it does to Aimee. If I take a good hard look at it, Aimee's version is probably closer to GD than mine is since my upbringing left me with a nasty taste in my mouth even for 'discipline'-to me the word discipline brings up images of control and vicious spankings. I'll readily admit that her post struck some chords in me and I didn't acknowledge that before I replied. I really should have followed my advice and backed away from the keyboard for a few hours.

I still believe (and maybe I should be stepping away again







) that saying you're helping a child cooperate by taking away their toys is simply a nicer way of saying you're helping the child be more obedient next time because they know the consequence for them if they don't do as they're asked. But I'll agree that that may be Aimee's definition of cooperation while it' my definition of obedience.

I think that's where most people miscommunicate-they're using the same words with vastly different meanings.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
It has been helpful with my kids to sit down, reconnect, and make a plan in situations like this. They really like to be engaged with me, and they like when we are going to do something together as a team. So I approach cleaning up the same way that I do any project. Just like I might say, "Lets make a plan to make a pie today." I would say, "Lets make a plan to straighten up the livingroom today."

I very rarely (almost never) ask that anything be done "right now." I will get their attention, and say, "Picking the toys is part of the list for today. We need to get it done within such-and-such a time frame. Lets make a plan." If they do say, "I'll do it later." I insist on knowing exactly when "later" is going to be. I will say, "Do you mean in 10 minutes? Or do you mean after lunch?" And then I set the timer, and I'll say, "Okay -- when the timer beeps its your reminder about picking up the toys. Got it?"

Another important emphasis is to present chores within the context of the other things we have on the schedule. They understand that in order to progress through our "plan" for the day, we have to complete one activity before we move to the next.

Lists are useful too, even if they can't read. For some kinds of kids, the chance to cross something off a list is sort of satisfying, kwim? Some types of adults too (me, for instance!)







I often write down a short list, and say, "This is what needs to happen before dinner." And put it on the table for everyone to see. Usually we just check things off, but stickers for marking things off can be fun too.

Good example. Thank you


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Niamh - you are right that we all have our own defininitions. And, FWIW, I actually tend more toward your definitions and approach -- but I have seen a wide range of discipline approaches on this board, and cringe a little at the implication that someone else is not "GD" enough to fit in. We are all learning. And we are all at different places on the discipline continuum. There *are* specific board guidelines to appeal to, but I don't think they exclude Aimee's perspective.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

I am glad Aimee posted.

You know....sometimes I feel like I fall into a victom mantality when using GD. It is important that I too am respected and treated kindly.

And GD or not....I believe there are times when kids just need to do it. Hey...I do not want to change Angelo's poopy diapers anymore. They make me feel physically ill uke But I do so out of commitment to a member of my families needs and to show respect to Angelo.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aimee21972* 
it (GD) promises a non-violent home *without threats*, hitting, yelling and so on. It (GD) promises to respect the child has feeling and wants -- but there is no reason the child wants and feeling need to preclude the child obeying.

4.5 is old enough to *start loosing stuff if* he doesn't help out.

How about "*If* Momma has to pick up the train it is going in the closet and you *won't be able to play with it*"

how about "*if* you don't have time to set the table for the family *then* you don't have time to do X" (*insert soemthing HE likes, CD, tv, whatever*).

you don't have to yell, *or be mean* -- it can all be matter of the fact and calm -- but choices have consequences. it can be phrased that way too -- "you chose not to pick up your trains, momma had to do it, so they are in the closet and *you can not play with them*"

(and he is making a choice not to do what you ask -- set table, pick up toys -- *so that choice should effect more than the momma is should effect the child too)*

Flame away

Aren't these threats? And how do they "respect the child has feelings and wants"?

I am confused by the difference between your definition of GD and your descriptions and suggestions.

Pat


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Jan, it helps me to recognize that I start needing more order and control in my life when I am overstretched and overscheduled. There is a saying 'we try to control others when we feel out of control'. I have seen myself and others do this so often. Could ds feel more need for control? Are you all coming and going more than usual? Are the additional demands on timeliness and public appearances straining your connection and responsiveness to each other? When I feel most frustrated and rushed is when ds helps me to slow down, not usually with my intention and awareness, until I find that the struggle takes longer than the working together.

When we had our home up for sale, just like you before the holidays, it was the hardest time of our lives as a family. We were all stressed and stretched to the max. We were concerned about not getting stuck with two mortgages going into the slow real estate selling season of winter and WE NEEDED TO SELL THE HOUSE!! I was fixated on having it in immaculate (as possible) condition with a 2 year old. Damn near impossible, even with storing all little bitty items and just keeping the toys in a contained area. It really helped when I finally released the need for it to be orderly *and then it sold to drop in house hunters!*

After looking at over 50 houses, I was able to recall MANY that I loved that had toys strewn about and messy piles of clothes and unmade beds. I logically understood that the other people's stuff didn't come with the house and I never really focused on that in my evaluation of the house's appropriateness to our family. However, emotionally, keeping the house orderly for people was MY way of contributing to our family and as a SAHM, it felt like I "should" be able to do it. In retrospect, 3 years later, I wish I had relaxed my expectations of myself and the house earlier, because my relationship with ds was/is more important and the struggles just escalated when I pushed for him to want what I wanted.

Not sure that helps. But btdt and it is stressful, I understand.

Pat


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

"There is a saying 'we try to control others when we feel out of control'."

That is really making me think....


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## Mama8 (Mar 6, 2006)

For me and my family. I parent in a way without "natural or logical consequences" or punishments. I want my child to learn to help out and take other's needs into consideration because she knows within herself that it is the right thing to do and that she is concerned for the affect it has on others. Not out of fear of something happening too her. I too have a child close to the op's child's age, she is 5. I have heard many of the same responses to my requests to help clean up. "I don't like it" "I don't want too." At times I get so frustrated. Over the months though to be honest I have seen a gradual shift in attitude and a willingness to cooperate. Unfortunately being in a hurry is a killer to parenting. I am not naturally a patient person







What I have done with this situation is to model over and over the behavior I want. I also have done so much talking and explaining I think I am running out of air. I have explained about us being a family and needing to help each other out. I have explained how I feel about cleaning up the mess. We have made games out of it. Sometimes these things have worked immediately and sometimes they have not. I have cleaned up things myself. I also have learned to respect her wants and needs her own schedule. Like if she is engrossed in something to wait until she is finished and asking her for a time when she could help me. If she is hungry feeding her first. If she is tired forget it is just not going to happen until she is rested. There are also times when she feels the need to get some loving from Mommy before anything can happen. So I try to make sure all these needs are taken into account and filled. But sometimes for reasons unknown to me she still refuses to cooperate. What is occurring though I can finally see after months of doing this that the resistance to cooperate in cleaning is decreasing and she is starting to be concerned about how others are feeling and how it affects them. It's been slow and she still is not always willing to help out. I have just learned for me and my family it takes lots and lots of patience and time for my children. I try to keep faith in the process of growing though.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *apmommy76* 
Yeah, we do sports, gymnastics, etc...So there's often something fun at the end but he STILL doesn't want to cooperate and pick up. He even tells me straight up that he doesn't like picking up and that it's no fun..LOL but he DOES like mopping.









See, I have a different take on this too. I don't like shopping at Walmart, dh doesn't mind. So, he does the Walmart run. Dh doesn't like doing laundry, I don't find it an issue, so that is my preferred way to contribute to the family. Ds likes helping to unload the dishwasher, I don't like doing the silverware, so together we get it done. I don't like cleaning the toilets, dh likes the toilets cleaner than I, so he does them when he thinks they need it....

Ds likes to help carry in groceries, and help unload them. He helps with sorting laundry (occasionally) and he LOVES to vaccuum. He also likes washing pots and pans (as well as a 5 year old can), I don't like that part for whatever reason; so I am glad to share that part. Picking up toys is meditative to me. I love seeing Order recreated. It is very satisfying to return all the toys to "their place". Ds loves the orderly room but loves to play. with. each. thing. while. trying. to. get. them. put. away.







So, I clean up his playroom and will ask him to help with specific pieces, but it isn't a struggle or anyone's "job". We just work together as a family to get it all done happily.

HTH, Pat


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:

We just work together as a family to get it all done happily.








We like to operate this way at our house too. Oldest dd likes to unload the dishwasher; I don't mind loading it; 9yodd likes to dust and sweep; ds takes out the garbage... We all help each other out and split the duties in a way that's mutually agreeable--without worrying about who made what mess.


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## MobiusWentKnowhere (Dec 11, 2006)

While reading the thread, my first question was regarding the definition of GD. I see now that there are differing ideas of GD. Which is fine. We are all allowed to parent as we see fit. What seems common to those who subscribe to GD, however, is that discipline should not be a result of our emotions but a result of some need.

I grew up in a household where I got yelled (and worse) because my parents were angry. I realize that this feeling is inevitable when parenting. But disciplining your kid because you are angry seems to be a rediculous idea. That only serves your own need. Our job is to help guide the needs of our children so they can function well in our society.

Which brings me to the crux of my position. Parenting is a job. The job description would read something like this. "Juvenile management and janitorial services" It might save your sanity if you apply yourself to this job like any other. Imagine your managerial effectiveness if you started screaming angrily at your employees. Also imagine whether the carrot or the stick would effect more immediate results. The problem with parents that yell and hit is they choose to accept the short term results of submission rather than the long term results of understanding and willingness.

BTW- As I was trying to write this, both kids were all over me, which elicited in me a rage that would have scared my parents. I would have loved to yell at them, even the 1yo, and scared them away from me. But choosing the harder path of putting aside my own needs in the moment and engaging them for a few minutes helps keep the peace of the house which will affect all of us positively in the long run. *Pats self on Back*

Good luck with the move.


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## hubris (Mar 8, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
People like to be part of the planning process.

That right there is a key part of what I was trying to say. Kids are people, too, but because they're younger, we often tend to think of their desires as less important than the agenda of the grownups. Validating their feelings and including them in making a plan that benefits the whole family really does work.


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## apmommy76 (Sep 3, 2004)

This is what I want too but my little one doesn't even want to be part of the "team" if it requires picking up toys.

It's not novel enough, I guess because he likes other tasks.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnysideup* 







We like to operate this way at our house too. Oldest dd likes to unload the dishwasher; I don't mind loading it; 9yodd likes to dust and sweep; ds takes out the garbage... We all help each other out and split the duties in a way that's mutually agreeable--without worrying about who made what mess.


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## MsChatsAlot (Sep 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
So, I clean up his playroom and will ask him to help with specific pieces, but it isn't a struggle or anyone's "job". We just work together as a family to get it all done happily.

HTH, Pat

Here's my question though.

NO ONE in my house likes to pick up toys. So, who does it then?


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## Emmanuelle-France (Nov 1, 2005)

:

What about, instead of telling "tidy up", saying : "When will you be ready to tidy up?" and let the kid decide?

And 4 yo is too young I believe to tidy up alone. Tidying up is an excellent way to do mathematics, sorting things, having a bit of fun doing a common activity....

Tibô il responsible to set up the table (although I sometimes do it , it's not an intangible rule); he knows that the family shall not eat until the table is set up. He takes it very seriously and ask me to do it!

You are saying you'll be moving soon, and people visit the house while you're away. Isn't this very difficult for him? Maybe he refuses to tidy up to let you know he do not accept this intrusion?
:??:


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsChatsAlot* 
Here's my question though.

NO ONE in my house likes to pick up toys. So, who does it then?

MsChat, here is a thread with several of my posts about creating a clean canvas as a gift. By focusing on what we want, rather than what we don't want, we create the joy in cleaning even.







http://www.mothering.com/discussions...as#post4525544

Pat


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## PrincessCass (Aug 6, 2005)

This thread has been opening my eyes. My son will be 4 tomorrow and lately when I ask him or even tell him to pick up he says I can't my arms are broken or my legs hurt or not right now my tummy is hungry LOL he is a master excuse maker. I sympathize.


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## MsChatsAlot (Sep 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
MsChat, here is a thread with several of my posts about creating a clean canvas as a gift. By focusing on what we want, rather than what we don't want, we create the joy in cleaning even.







http://www.mothering.com/discussions...as#post4525544
Pat

Thanks.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsChatsAlot* 
Here's my question though.

NO ONE in my house likes to pick up toys. So, who does it then?

Around here, routine and predictablity are the keys to getting everyone (adults included) to work together to care for our home. A positive attitude toward caring for the home is another big key to it-making it fun, finding the joy in it, focusing on what it brings us (a clean, pleasant home with plenty of room to play, toys that are safe and in good condition).

And it almost without fail works when I make the awful "wwwhoooop! wwwhoooop!" alarm-like noise to announce a toy (or other chore) emergency, and call in my Emergency Cleaning Robots to save us. To see how fast we can get rid of these mischievous toys. While wearing an occasional toy/other item on our heads. On Mars.

There is often so much fun to be had and company to be enjoyed. Even when cleaning.


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## MsChatsAlot (Sep 8, 2005)

My comment was actually in jest.

My kids have a good sense about family responsibility and most of the time are eager and/or okay with helping out. I'm a single mom and I've just talked to them honestly from the beginning saying that there are a lot of things that have to be done in order to keep our household running. I have added responsibilities to their lives slowly by making sure that they develop the habit of one before adding something else. They seem to enjoy helping out (most of the time) and like having certain jobs and responsibilities. They also know that if I have to do all the work alone, it means we don't have time to do anything else....including really fun activities. And that's not meant as a punishment or anything....just a fact based on reality of time and amount of work.

I have allowed them to choose between a few different activities (which I believe is what the person I quoted was originally getting at). When everyone does something they have chosen....it makes it theirs and they seem to enjoy ownership of it more.

But....in reality, and back to my original comment, none of us do like cleaning up the toys. However, my kids know that their toys are a priviledge to have and they also know that if they make a mess it is their responsibility to clean it up. I have heard the sob stories about sore legs and brains, etc. but they know if they want to have toys...they need to be responsible for putting them away and caring for them. They do it and most of the time we put on fun music or make it fun....sometimes they do it begrudgingly....but they always do it.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I don't know. In my reality, ITA with Mschatsalot that nobody likes cleaning up the toys. I try to make it fun, we do it as a team, we tackle bigger cleaning jobs together.

But sometimes my kiddo just plain old doesn't want to do it. (She is 3).

When that happens, I am definitely not above parent imposed consequences. I haven't taken away toys, but I've said no tv, or something else she is looking forward to, if she doesn't help.

IME my kid doesn't have the same sense of duty, or empathy, as an adult. And treating her like an adult by attempting to negotiate her into doing her part is often fruitless.

I am not the sort of mama who will pick up all the toys and then say something like, "This was your job and I didn't like having to do it. Next time I want you to pick up your toys."

Around here... umm, not so much.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Personally I don't like words like compliance and obedience. They encourage use to think of children as our subjects, who are supposed to do our bidding. And they aren't, they are people just like we are. I agree with the suggestions about the word cooperating - they are more accurate in terms of what I'm wanting from my child.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44* 
I suggest saying something like "I need for you to pick up your toys right now"

and then "actively waiting" (the kind of waiting one does for an elevator) for it to be done.

If he refuses and you don't have time to wait him out, you can do it and tell him "I had to pick up your toys. That is your job and I don't like having to do it. Next time I expect you to pick up your toys.


This has been shot down but maya44's method really works. I don't have that many things that are not optional, but for the things that are, this is exactly what I do. Does he cooperate 100% of the time? No, of course not. And, lots of times he needs help. But the majority of the time I simply state what I need him to do and it really works.

You have to believe that your parenting authority lies not in your ability to punish, or restrict, or take things away - your parenting authority lies in the fact that you are his ambassador to the world (to borrow phraseology from Happiest Toddler on the Block). You know more, you can do stuff he can't, and you are teaching him all of that stuff. That is where your authority lies.

And, hey, I just have a 3 year old. But maya44 has kids way older than that and these are methods that really do work. And, she has way more rules than I do.









Now, if you believe in consensual living, that method may not be right for you (not a problem for the OP but might be for other people). I do believe in consensual living but I lack the tactics to deal with a few things so there are a few areas where I simply tell him what I need him to do. We all have certain things to do in order to make up a family, and he really doesn't understand the part he plays. He doesn't have that vision. I do so I have to help him with it.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:

Originally Posted by maya44
I suggest saying something like "I need for you to pick up your toys right now"

and then "actively waiting" (the kind of waiting one does for an elevator) for it to be done.

If he refuses and you don't have time to wait him out, you can do it and tell him "I had to pick up your toys. That is your job and I don't like having to do it. Next time I expect you to pick up your toys.
Oops, sorry, I knew I had read that somewhere. Didn't realize it was on this thread! I apologize for shooting it down so passive aggressively.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

How would that not work for consensual living?


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsChatsAlot* 
My comment was actually in jest.

My kids have a good sense about family responsibility and most of the time are eager and/or okay with helping out. I'm a single mom and I've just talked to them honestly from the beginning saying that there are a lot of things that have to be done in order to keep our household running. I have added responsibilities to their lives slowly by making sure that they develop the habit of one before adding something else. They seem to enjoy helping out (most of the time) and like having certain jobs and responsibilities. They also know that if I have to do all the work alone, it means we don't have time to do anything else....including really fun activities. And that's not meant as a punishment or anything....just a fact based on reality of time and amount of work.

I have allowed them to choose between a few different activities (which I believe is what the person I quoted was originally getting at). When everyone does something they have chosen....it makes it theirs and they seem to enjoy ownership of it more.

But....in reality, and back to my original comment, none of us do like cleaning up the toys. However, my kids know that their toys are a priviledge to have and they also know that if they make a mess it is their responsibility to clean it up. I have heard the sob stories about sore legs and brains, etc. but they know if they want to have toys...they need to be responsible for putting them away and caring for them. They do it and most of the time we put on fun music or make it fun....sometimes they do it begrudgingly....but they always do it.

And my post really is what things around here look like on the good days. We also talk a lot about responsibilities, things that need to be done if we want to enjoy our home and keep our things working. We also have had times (only occasional) when we've been unable to do some things because too many other things at home haven't been taken care of (this is rare, and just reality not punishment). And likewise, we too have the reality of days when no one wants to do things. We also give kids the choice of things to help out with, and we too sometimes just say "it needs to be done" or "I have lots of other things to do, if you take all that out it's your responsibility to put it away" and usually that is sufficient. Sometimes it isn't. However, we don't take anything away as punishment if it isn't put away. We do communicate our frustration and irritation, and give a reminder about next time.

I wasn't trying to take anything too seriously or to be condescending or to argue. Life is too short to be taken too seriously or to spend time arguing (though I do it sometimes).


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## apmommy76 (Sep 3, 2004)

No..he likes to help with fun things like setting the table, etc.. It's the toys. He does have too many, so I think he's overwhelmed We try to live the simple life but the grandparents buy too much. And he wants to move because he wants a house with a pool.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Emmanuelle-France* 







:

What about, instead of telling "tidy up", saying : "When will you be ready to tidy up?" and let the kid decide?

And 4 yo is too young I believe to tidy up alone. Tidying up is an excellent way to do mathematics, sorting things, having a bit of fun doing a common activity....

Tibô il responsible to set up the table (although I sometimes do it , it's not an intangible rule); he knows that the family shall not eat until the table is set up. He takes it very seriously and ask me to do it!

You are saying you'll be moving soon, and people visit the house while you're away. Isn't this very difficult for him? Maybe he refuses to tidy up to let you know he do not accept this intrusion?
:??:


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## apmommy76 (Sep 3, 2004)

I don't like those words either and normally wouldn't use them, but man, it can be frustrating when you have a little one and an older one. Things are so much harder when you can't focus on just the one child. So now that he's the big brother (and almost five) I do expect more. I wish I had expected a bit more before now!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KristiMetz* 
Personally I don't like words like compliance and obedience. They encourage use to think of children as our subjects, who are supposed to do our bidding. And they aren't, they are people just like we are. I agree with the suggestions about the word cooperating - they are more accurate in terms of what I'm wanting from my child.

This has been shot down but maya44's method really works. I don't have that many things that are not optional, but for the things that are, this is exactly what I do. Does he cooperate 100% of the time? No, of course not. And, lots of times he needs help. But the majority of the time I simply state what I need him to do and it really works.

You have to believe that your parenting authority lies not in your ability to punish, or restrict, or take things away - your parenting authority lies in the fact that you are his ambassador to the world (to borrow phraseology from Happiest Toddler on the Block). You know more, you can do stuff he can't, and you are teaching him all of that stuff. That is where your authority lies.

And, hey, I just have a 3 year old. But maya44 has kids way older than that and these are methods that really do work. And, she has way more rules than I do.









Now, if you believe in consensual living, that method may not be right for you (not a problem for the OP but might be for other people). I do believe in consensual living but I lack the tactics to deal with a few things so there are a few areas where I simply tell him what I need him to do. We all have certain things to do in order to make up a family, and he really doesn't understand the part he plays. He doesn't have that vision. I do so I have to help him with it.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
How would that not work for consensual living?

Everyone is welcome to explore consensual living at the CL tribe, CL web site or CL yahoogroup.







:

Here are the links:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=493985

http://www.consensual-living.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Consen...guid=140240070

Pat


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## MsChatsAlot (Sep 8, 2005)

Just a question.....as I'm trying to just get a better sense of what some of your are saying.

So, if your child doesn't put their toys away and it's in your way...or you come into the room in the dark, step on it and get hurt...then that's just okay? Or if you're trying to sell your home and it's a mess and doesn't sell because the kid doesn't want to pick up their toys, then that's just okay? Because for me it's not. And maybe my house is different than some of yours...but if the toys aren't picked up, that effects my life too and I'm just not okay with doing their work for them because they simply don't feel like it. No one picks up the slack for me when I don't feel like doing things. There are natural consequences that occur when I don't do my jobs...so I'm thinking it's makes sense for kids to have natural consequences of not doing their jobs too.

I am onboard with gentle discipline...and I certainly don't agree with punishment, but I'm also not okay with the work not getting done when it effects other people and their enjoyment of our home, or punishing myself by having to do their work because they just don't feel like it.

Maybe I've missed something here...I'm just looking for some clarity.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

ITA with you, Mschatsalot.

I feel like some GD turns into the child ruling, and mama pretty much begging for cooperation and then giving in when it doesn't happen.

I don't think that is a good thing. In my house Mama is the boss. A very gentle loving boss, but bottom line is if you're the kid, you need to respect the mama and help out.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

thismama, I think it's more an ebb and flow, rather than the child ruling. There are periods when I serve more than I'm served. Especially at 3 when they can do so much, but it's much harder for them than me...and there is so much they cannot yet do.

I didn't push at 3. I modelled and talked about what I was doing. I try to focus on the joy of what I was doing.

Sure, some days I felt like a doormat. But I wasn't.

Tonight, my newly 6 year old made us both cups of warm chocolate almost entirely on her own. She didn't entirely get the counter cleaned up. There was a small milk spill she missed. But her impulse is to make us both a cup of warm chocolate at the end of a busy day.

That's what I'm shooting for. Caring for each other, not just getting the house picked up. Connecting for us happens in the little everyday things. Making meals, cleaning up, doing art, brushing teeth....

We've gone through busy periods where it look liked vandals had struck the house. But the warmth being built between us is definitely worth it.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

i hear you on the goal, chfriend. I just don't think there has to be a complete absence of authority or parental direction to accomplish it, kwim?


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I do...and mamaduck has influenced how I think about the word "authority." She has described acting as an authority...explaining things, serving as a guide, an "authority" on how the world works. I like that.

In Hold on to your kids, the author talks about how the authority we have as parents is derived from the attachment our kids have to us. So anything I do to foster that attachment, working together, playing together, etc. builds my authority....that is, makes it more likely that when it counts, my dds will listen to me.

So, mine don't have to do what I say unless it's a safety thing. (Of course, I have to do what they say if it's a safety thing.) And my kids almost always do what I ask or present a much better idea.

The efficiency of having them just do what I say is overcome by the payoff of mostly very harmonious living. Which it wasn't when dd1 was 3....she was perfectionistic and easily frustrated. We didn't know she is sensitive to wheat and she felt like [email protected] most of the time. It was hard.

But I'm really glad I didn't just dominate her and insist on my way. I feel like it would have been hard to foster the relationship we have now.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Hmm. I've thought about this a lot, and personally I am comfortable with making some of the rules, and expecting them to be followed.

My bottom lines are:

Could/does it hurt my kiddo?
Could/does it hurt someone else?
Does it drive me batsh!t crazy?

If it's yes to any of those things, it can easily become law.

I only have a finite amount of energy. If she hurts the cats, it's time out. I've explained again and again about the cats, that hurts them, blahblah. Bottom line: she is 3. She doesn't care.

If we're leaving a party and I have my shoes on standing at the door, and she bolts upstairs? I am not removing my shoes and going up to beg/cajole/negotiate her into coming down. I say, "I'm leaving!" And she comes down. In a panic yes, but I have no problem with that. Mama is going. Get on the bus!

If it's time to tidy up the toys and she doesn't wanna coz she wants to do something else... well, I'll negotiate that we do the toys after she does whatever she is doing. But if that time comes and she says no, whatever she is doing gets taken away til the toys are picked up.

I don't think these things preclude having a positive, loving relationship. For me, letting my kid run me, or expending more energy than I have on small things, would preclude having a positive loving relationship.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsChatsAlot* 
So, if your child doesn't put their toys away and it's in your way...or you come into the room in the dark, step on it and get hurt...then that's just okay?

If my dh, my child, or anyone in the house left something in the middle of the floor and I steped on it, I would be irritated and say so. But, I would also understand that it was probably a mistake--we all forget things occasionally--so I'd mention it and move on. If it were happening routinely I would figure that my child obviously needed more guidance/help with cleaning up. Children aren't born knowing how to clean or solve math problems. Some children "get" math right away, others need years of help and guidance.

In our house we all help each other out. Usually the kids put away their things. If they didn't want to there would probably be some logical reason--too much homework, too tired, etc. I'm not above helping them when they need help. I believe children learn mostly by modeling. When I need help they help me. They are growing into very kind and helpful young people.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsChatsAlot* 
Just a question.....as I'm trying to just get a better sense of what some of your are saying.

So, if your child doesn't put their toys away and it's in your way...or you come into the room in the dark, step on it and get hurt...then that's just okay? Or if you're trying to sell your home and it's a mess and doesn't sell because the kid doesn't want to pick up their toys, then that's just okay? Because for me it's not. And maybe my house is different than some of yours...but if the toys aren't picked up, that effects my life too and I'm just not okay with doing their work for them because they simply don't feel like it. No one picks up the slack for me when I don't feel like doing things. There are natural consequences that occur when I don't do my jobs...so I'm thinking it's makes sense for kids to have natural consequences of not doing their jobs too.

I am onboard with gentle discipline...and I certainly don't agree with punishment, but I'm also not okay with the work not getting done when it effects other people and their enjoyment of our home, or punishing myself by having to do their work because they just don't feel like it.

Maybe I've missed something here...I'm just looking for some clarity.

I once could've written what you wrote. I can just see myself writing it.

For me, no it's not "okay" if my kids don't put something away and it's in my way, or I step on it in the dark and get hurt, or someone steps on it and it breaks, or if I'm trying to sell the house and it's too messy to sell it, or any number of other things. And it's not okay for me to be a martyr and do it all myself all the time while getting overwhelmed and resentful. It's not okay if our home gets into a state of disarray that keeps us from feeling peaceful and enjoying our home. I value and need us all, each member of our family, to take care of our home.

It's just that kids are learning and sometimes forget, and they learn (IMO) through the examples we set and the values we share and the expectations and requests me make clear. That's much more powerful than any consequence I could dream up. And I've found adding consequences breeds resistance more than it engenders cooperation. So if the toy hasn't been picked up and it's in my way, I'll ask them to put it away and wait for them to do so. Or I'll do it and speak with them (as Maya does) about how it's their job, and I had to do it, and next time I expect them to do it. We talk about taking care of our toys and home, and if something gets left out and it gets broken (honestly accidentally) that's a lesson in itself. If someone gets hurt because it didn't get put away, we'll point that out and talk about it and make a plan to keep it from happening again. I have just come to think that consequences, while still tempting, aren't necessary and don't help kids learn any better. And I, as the adult, am simply more flexible, and it won't kill me to put it away if they don't if I really want it put away-it's not punishment, I want it put away so I do it, and I'll share my feelings and values about cleaning up with my kids again. And again and again. They've learned a lot already, and I trust they'll continue to learn.

The real world comes to our kids soon enough. As far as I'm concerned our home is a place not just of teaching or showing each other how the "real world" works, but of nurturing and picking up the slack for each other when each of us needs that. Our home is a place of building and nurturing relationships. Teamwork isn't just about everyone doing their fair share all the time, sometimes it's about doing more than your "fair share" in a spirit of giving and caring and helping. I would do it for dh, I would do it for friends, I do it for my kids. Not to the point that I'm completely depleted, no, but it rarely comes to that (usually if I feel that way it's due to other things or to the fact that _I've_ let things go/forgotten/fallen behind). And when it has reached that point, I've just told my kids I really need their help and they help.

Just my experience. There's no one-size-fits-all approach that works for everyone all the time.


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## MsChatsAlot (Sep 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnysideup* 
If my dh, my child, or anyone in the house left something in the middle of the floor and I steped on it, I would be irritated and say so. But, I would also understand that it was probably a mistake--we all forget things occasionally--so I'd mention it and move on. If it were happening routinely I would figure that my child obviously needed more guidance/help with cleaning up. Children aren't born knowing how to clean or solve math problems. Some children "get" math right away, others need years of help and guidance.

I agree with what you've said. If it were a mistake or something, no biggie. And if it were routine, I would address the issue. But I wrote this because the op said that her son just simply doesn't ever want to pick up his toys and others were saying that if they don't want to do it, it's okay.


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## MsChatsAlot (Sep 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg* 
It's just that kids are learning and sometimes forget, and they learn (IMO) through the examples we set and the values we share and the expectations and requests me make clear. That's much more powerful than any consequence I could dream up. And I've found adding consequences breeds resistance more than it engenders cooperation. So if the toy hasn't been picked up and it's in my way, I'll ask them to put it away and wait for them to do so. .

I agree that kids are learning and do forget. I don't expect my kids to look at the messy room and on their own decide that it should be cleaned and take the initiative to clean it. But, as I posted above....my comments were made because the OP said her child doesn't EVER want to clean up and others responded that if the child doesn't want to do it, that's okay.

For me, an occasional mess or mistake is fine. For me, having to ask them and watch them and sometimes even help them, is fine. But for them to just not have to do it because they don't feel like it...is not okay and that's where my comments were coming from.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg* 
I have just come to think that consequences, while still tempting, aren't necessary and don't help kids learn any better.

I guess I'm a little puzzled with this one, because life is full of natural consequences and if children don't learn about natural consequences as children...when and how will they learn them? And will it be easier for them to learn as they get fired from a job because they didn't do their work...or is it easier to understand from the beginning that there are consequences to everything we do? There is a natural consequence of me leaving my clothes all over the floor, or not maintaining my vehicle or my house so why wouldn't the natural consequences of leaving toys out be okay for the kids?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg* 
The real world comes to our kids soon enough. As far as I'm concerned our home is a place not just of teaching or showing each other how the "real world" works, but of nurturing and picking up the slack for each other when each of us needs that. Our home is a place of building and nurturing relationships.

That's a bit funny, because I actually see the *real world* as being a very cooperative place where most times, people do help others when we need it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg* 
Teamwork isn't just about everyone doing their fair share all the time, sometimes it's about doing more than your "fair share" in a spirit of giving and caring and helping. I would do it for dh, I would do it for friends, I do it for my kids. Not to the point that I'm completely depleted, no, but it rarely comes to that (usually if I feel that way it's due to other things or to the fact that _I've_ let things go/forgotten/fallen behind). And when it has reached that point, I've just told my kids I really need their help and they help.


I agree and I was trying to make that point. If the OP said her child NEVER wants to pick up toys...where is the teamwork and give and take in that? When the mom says to pick them up, the child says no and mom does it...where is the cooperation in that? That's all I was really questionning.

My house works very cooperatively. Everyone really does pitch in and help out. I do help the kids, on occasion pick up their things, but only when I have the time or feel it will show them a willingness to help out. I would not like my children thinking it's okay to just not do stuff because mom will do it anyway.

I guess I've just seen too many moms who take this too far and live in a place of martrydome with their children and sometimes I think that's worse than a consequence.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsChatsAlot* 
But, as I posted above....my comments were made because the OP said her child doesn't EVER want to clean up and others responded that if the child doesn't want to do it, that's okay.

For me, an occasional mess or mistake is fine. For me, having to ask them and watch them and sometimes even help them, is fine. But for them to just not have to do it because they don't feel like it...is not okay and that's where my comments were coming from.

I get that. I do. My soon-to-be-3 year old doesn't ever want to pick up toys. My others were the same at that age. We just kept encouraging it and expecting it, and it happened. They're better at it now than before. No, it's not just "okay" for them to not do it. But it's also just not necessary to set up some kind of consequence. In our home, I mean. That's all.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsChatsAlot* 
I guess I'm a little puzzled with this one, because life is full of natural consequences and if children don't learn about natural consequences as children...when and how will they learn them? And will it be easier for them to learn as they get fired from a job because they didn't do their work...or is it easier to understand from the beginning that there are consequences to everything we do? There is a natural consequence of me leaving my clothes all over the floor, or not maintaining my vehicle or my house so why wouldn't the natural consequences of leaving toys out be okay for the kids?

From my pov, the natural consequence of leaving toys out is that they might get broken or lost and we might not enjoy our living environment. I agree that there are consequences to everything we do, of some kind or another. I just don't think I need to come up with a consequence like "if you don't pick it up, it gets taken away" or time out or whatever. I simply don't think it's necessary. And frankly, whether or not I impose consequences as a parent my kids will learn about consequences of both the natural and imposed variety. I have no reason to think that if I don't impose consequences that my kids won't understand that to keep a job they'll have to do work. I don't follow that logic, frankly. My oldest is quite aware of the consequences imposed at school, and the responsibilities the school expects her to fulfill. And I'm not convinced it's definitely not okay to impose consequences at home, I just don't see that it's necessary and IME it has led to more struggle and unpleasantries, not fewer, and distracts from what I'd really like them to learn.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsChatsAlot* 
That's a bit funny, because I actually see the world as being a very cooperative place where most times, people do help others when we need it. I think of the real world as a place to build and nurture relationships....so I'm okay with my children learning that at home.

Yep, I think that's what learning to be in the world is all about. Building relationships, nurturing them, communicating, cooperating, working together to find solutions to problems. When I said _"The real world comes to our kids soon enough. As far as I'm concerned our home is a place not just of teaching or showing each other how the "real world" works, but of nurturing and picking up the slack for each other when each of us needs that. Our home is a place of building and nurturing relationships"_ I was commenting on this idea of the _consequences_ out there in the real world: _"No one picks up the slack for me when I don't feel like doing things. There are natural consequences that occur when I don't do my jobs...so I'm thinking it's makes sense for kids to have natural consequences of not doing their jobs too."_ I don't feel the need to focus too much on the idea of the consequences to be experienced "out there", because they will learn about how their actions and words affect others with or without my imposing consequences-through talking about things, interaction, communication, problem solving. But again, that is just my opinion.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsChatsAlot* 
I agree and I was trying to make that point. If the OP said her child NEVER wants to pick up toys...where is the teamwork and give and take in that? When the mom says to pick them up, the child says no and mom does it...where is the cooperation in that? That's all I was really questionning.

I hear that. And this is where I think predictable, regular routines, modeling, and finding the fun (for everyone) in it comes in. It takes time to build that. The key in our family has been to create those routines, to make it part of daily life, and to be patient while the habit forms. To find ways of encouraging it. The moment I put a consequence out there (not a natural one, but one I decide on), I hit a wall of resistance. But when I take a softer, lighter approach and invite the kids into routine, encourage them, talk to them about my values and needs, and express my appreciation, it begins to happen. That takes time and it does take effort, but it has always paid off for us. When we do it every day, when we do it together, it works. It's not always easy to get off the ground at first, but we've always managed to get off the ground. And often it helps to have the kids' input when it comes to making plans and rounties. Creativity, flexibility, thinking way outside the box, letting go of rigid thoughts about who should do what, when. If my kids don't want to pick up the toys but will wash the tables and counters or empty the dishwasher or vacuum, maybe that works for me. Maybe it doesn't and we go back to the drawing board.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsChatsAlot* 
I guess I've just seen too many moms who take this too far and live in a place of martrydome with their children and sometimes I think that's worse than a consequence.

Agreed. That is not a good thing.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

hmmm scary topic but...







my kids have a lot of responsibilites in the house. Even my 3 y.o. has "chores" but they see them as a part of family life rather than tasks imposed upon them by MOM. Sometimes, they need reminders esp. after a frenzied bout of playing Super Hero throughout the house, but for the most part, they're just used to picking up after themselves and caring for their space.

I guess we intro. just as common-sense; ie. well, EVERYONE unsets their place or puts laundry in the hamper, etc. We all have jobs in our family.

I do have to admit I help sometimes w/toy oieces by sweeping them into a pile.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg* 
I think predictable, regular routines, modeling, and finding the fun (for everyone) in it comes in. It takes time to build that. The key in our family has been to create those routines, to make it part of daily life, and to be patient while the habit forms.

When we do it every day, when we do it together, it works. It's not always easy to get off the ground at first, but we've always managed to get off the ground. And often it helps to have the kids' input when it comes to making plans and rounties.









:


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsChatsAlot* 
others were saying that if they don't want to do it, it's okay.

Um.... where did you see this? I don't recall anyone saying their children simply run amuck, leaving toys everywhere, without guidance or explanations.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

We do not use imposed "consequences". 4 years old is plenty old enough to discuss the issue with and come up with mutally agreeable solutions. Those last two sentances are related though. If a child is used to being punished to achieve obidience, there is very little incentive for that child to be cooperative or have an interest in coming to a solution. You cannot punish "empathy" or "cooperation" into a child IMO.

So looking back at some of the examples in this thread. No, it is not OK with me to:

Have a messy house
Do all of the work myself
"Cater" to my child (or anyone for that matter) all of the time
Be a push-over
Be walked on

And these things do not happen to me with either my dh or my dd (who is 3.5 BTW). I ask my dd to pick up her toys. Sometimes she does it. Sometimes she says no. When she says no, I do not get angry. I ask why. She tells me. Usually it is because she is doing something that is more important to her and that is a valid reason. Sometimes she does not feel like it. That is valid too IMO. If dh asked me to empty the dishwasher while I was reading a book, I might say no (or "not right now", or whatever). If I asked dd to pick up her toys and she says "no" for whatever reason, I then decide whether to try and find a solution that works for both of us or I might even pick them up myself if it is important enough. Like if I want to vacuum right now and she does not want to move her toys at that moment, I then decide if my need to vacuum right then is important enough to me to but the toys away myself or if I would prefer to wait until she is ready to do it.

But I come from a place where I do not think children should be "obedient". I think my dd's decisions and opinions are as important as mine or dh's. And my dd knows that. I truley believe this makes her more willing to do "her part" because she knows that "her parts....all of them" are as important as everyone else's. Sometimes, yes, I just want something to be done. This happens with my dh too. And I can understand the frutsration of the OP. That feeling happens to me. But I try not to let it allow me to treat people in ways I do not want to be treated.


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## MsChatsAlot (Sep 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg* 
From my pov, the natural consequence of leaving toys out is that they might get broken or lost and we might not enjoy our living environment. I agree that there are consequences to everything we do, of some kind or another. I just don't think I need to come up with a consequence like "if you don't pick it up, it gets taken away" or time out or whatever. I simply don't think it's necessary.

I agree completely. Imposing an unnatural consequence has never seemed logical to me either.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg* 
_"No one picks up the slack for me when I don't feel like doing things. There are natural consequences that occur when I don't do my jobs...so I'm thinking it's makes sense for kids to have natural consequences of not doing their jobs too."_ I don't feel the need to focus too much on the idea of the consequences to be experienced "out there", because they will learn about how their actions and words affect others with or without my imposing consequences-through talking about things, interaction, communication, problem solving. But again, that is just my opinion.

I have *only* discussed natural consequences. And 'in there'/'out there' makes no difference to me, because in my house there are natural consequences just as much as 'out there'...which I take to mean, outside my house. And, I don't impose them....hence the word 'natural'. There are consequences of everything I do...and there are also consequences in everything my kids do. I don't prevent it...I just allow it to be.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg* 
And this is where I think predictable, regular routines, modeling, and finding the fun (for everyone) in it comes in. It takes time to build that.

I agree that making it fun is really the key for all of us. And yes, it does take time to build regular jobs into a daily routine.

I don't think we've been that different in anything said along the way. I have stated that my kids are very cooperative and it's not been an issue in my family. I've made it clear from the beginning that there is simply too much work for me to do alone...so they do their share too. To me it's not only part of being a family, it's part of being in a community too.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsChatsAlot* 
In my mind, having toys to play with are a priviledge, not a right. *If my child wants to have toys, he needs to put them away or take care of them. If he doesn't, the toys are gone.* It is really that simple.

You can tell him, son, here is your choice. You can choose to ENJOY picking up your toys and make it fun....or you can choose to dislike picking up your toys...but the toys will be picked up. Or, you can choose to have toys, but with that choice comes the responsibility of picking them up/taking care of them, or you can choose not have no toys and then there will be nothing to pick up.

This is where I thought you meant that there is some kind of imposed consequence. I read you to say that if the toys aren't picked up, there will be no toys. I read that to mean the toys would be taken away (or the child made to give up/put away all toys if they choose not to clean them up because toys can only be had if they are also cleaned up), which in my mind is not a natural consequence but an imposed one. I think that natural consequences just happen, imposed or logical ones are decided upon at some point. I think of natural consequences of toys not being picked up to be: messy house, cranky people, if mom has to do it she has less time to spend with kids, toys get lost or broken. But not "the toys are gone." That doesn't just happen. I admit to now feeling rather confused.







: I don't know how else to interpret what you wrote. Either I am really misreading or we have different ideas regarding what is a natural consequence.

I agree that we agree on most stuff. And I thank you for the very interesting discussion.


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## MsChatsAlot (Sep 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg* 
This is where I thought you meant that there is some kind of imposed consequence. I read you to say that if the toys aren't picked up, there will be no toys. I read that to mean the toys would be taken away (or the child made to give up/put away all toys if they choose not to clean them up because toys can only be had if they are also cleaned up), which in my mind is not a natural consequence but an imposed one. I think that natural consequences just happen, imposed or logical ones are decided upon at some point. I think of natural consequences of toys not being picked up to be: messy house, cranky people, if mom has to do it she has less time to spend with kids, toys get lost or broken. But not "the toys are gone." That doesn't just happen. I admit to now feeling rather confused.







: I don't know how else to interpret what you wrote. Either I am really misreading or we have different ideas regarding what is a natural consequence.

I agree that we agree on most stuff. And I thank you for the very interesting discussion.

In my house, if a toy is broken or lost it is gone....meaning they no longer have it because a broken toy is garbaged and a lost toy is lost. So a toy left out that gets broken or lost is gone.

And I would not buy new toys or replace them if they were lost or broken do to lack of care. An accident is different, but not putting them away and having them get broken is different. So, I suppose if they went long enough without helping (which isn't even imagineable for me) essentially, there could be no toys.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

I think for many mothers there is a struggle over feeling it's unfair or somehow un-gentle not to go the extra mile and just do everything for their child, in terms of cleaning up/chores/etc. I see that happen a lot with only or first children. It's not easy for all people to know where the line is between being a "good mother" and being a martyr.

A big issue for me as a young mother was patience. I was very, very tolerant as a 20 year old. Any amount of chaos and mess didn't upset me. I had no set way that everything had to "be". Ds enjoyed a very relaxed environment because of that. But I was not a patient teacher at that point. I was still in the student mindset myself. I did everything for ds in terms of cleaning up, because it was done faster, easier, with less hassle that way. It was unbearable to sit and persuade him to "help" me. I couldn't stand watching him do something wrong 4 times in a row. I was very impatient about that kind of thing, and as a result I did everything and ds did very little around thet house until he was close to 8.

But, the good news is that it wasn't a disaster starting over with an 8 year old. I was a better teacher by then, and ds was extremely easy to work with by that age. It just took consistency to get us into new habits regarding clean up and chores. Older kids are very into fairness and ds readily agreed it was "only fair" that he pick up too.


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

Ahh, MsChatsAlot, gotcha. I misunderstood. Thank you for taking the time to clarify.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama* 
I think for many mothers there is a struggle over feeling it's unfair or somehow un-gentle not to go the extra mile and just do everything for their child, in terms of cleaning up/chores/etc. I see that happen a lot with only or first children. It's not easy for all people to know where the line is between being a "good mother" and being a martyr.


I do not think I have seen anyone on this thread advocate doing everything for thier child or being a martyr. So far everyone that has responsed (unless I am missing something) has said that they do believe that children should help around the house, take care of their things, etc..... The difference in opinion comes over whether or not punishment is necessary to achieve this and what exactly "achieve" means in these situations. I realize this will vary depending on the person. I do not aim to get total obedience, nor do I feel it is healthy. I am happy as long as everyone in our household tries to help keep it running smoothly most of the time, one way or another.

Is it being a martyr to pick up a dp's towel because they forgot and you do not want them to have a mildewed towel? Is it being a martyr to take a sibling's turn at washing the dishes because you know they really want to go to a movie that night? Is it being a martyr to take back a roommate's movie rental because you noticed they forgot? Is it being a martyr to pick up your dc's toys because you want it done *right now* and they are busy doing something important to them (even if it is just sitting there and thinking)? Is it being a martyr to delay your vacuuming until dc is done doing said thing and is ready to clean up? Is it selfish to expect some niceties to be returned upon yourself too?

I also disagree with the implication (which I might be totally misreading) that parents of only children are more prone to getting walked on. Or it could even be interpretted to mean that parents can get away without punishing until they have more than one (or an older child or a younger child or some other requirement to be in the "real parents" club). Not saying that you specifically are saying these things, but it has come up in these types of threads over and over. I do not post on this forum much anymore, but some time when I have extra time on my hands I want to go back 1+ year ago when I was involved in a similar discussion. A discussion in which I was told to "just wait until YOU have a 3yo". I do have a 3+ yo now and I still stand by my opinion that punishment is not necessary or healthy. I am probably highly sensitive to these arguments due to have my opinion or suggestions dismissed because of some never-to-be-achieved qualification.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Yooper~sometimes the hesitancy over whether or not to intervene, how much, when, in what way, can be compounded by underlying issues. I find it helpful to bring it into the discussion. I'm sorry that was frustrating for you.

In my experience with an only child it has been true for *me* that the need for ds to clean up is less objective than it may be for others. With a 1:1 adult child ratio, and no siblings, you lose some tangible reasons to keep toys cleaned up~there are no toddlers who may choke on a lego, and mother is never busy and overwhelmed with smaller babies and children. For *me* there was a real uncertainty over *why* ds should ever clean up, kwim? Realistically, I *could* do it all for him. So why not?

I didn't figure that out until he was past the preschool stage. The reasons I came up with were preparation for life, for shared living, encouraging competence and a tangible sense of independence. Those weren't such obvious reasons when he was 3


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## slightly crunchy (Jul 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
See, I have a different take on this too. I don't like shopping at Walmart, dh doesn't mind. So, he does the Walmart run. Dh doesn't like doing laundry, I don't find it an issue, so that is my preferred way to contribute to the family. Ds likes helping to unload the dishwasher, I don't like doing the silverware, so together we get it done. I don't like cleaning the toilets, dh likes the toilets cleaner than I, so he does them when he thinks they need it....

Ds likes to help carry in groceries, and help unload them. He helps with sorting laundry (occasionally) and he LOVES to vaccuum. He also likes washing pots and pans (as well as a 5 year old can), I don't like that part for whatever reason; so I am glad to share that part. Picking up toys is meditative to me. I love seeing Order recreated. It is very satisfying to return all the toys to "their place". Ds loves the orderly room but loves to play. with. each. thing. while. trying. to. get. them. put. away.







So, I clean up his playroom and will ask him to help with specific pieces, but it isn't a struggle or anyone's "job". We just work together as a family to get it all done happily.

HTH, Pat

Thank you for this post! I have been struggling with the same issue as the OP and starting to feel like a martyr/maid, but your post has struck a chord and sparked some new ideas for my own family.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MsChatsAlot* 
Just a question.....as I'm trying to just get a better sense of what some of your are saying.

So, if your child doesn't put their toys away and it's in your way...or you come into the room in the dark, step on it and get hurt...then that's just okay? Or if you're trying to sell your home and it's a mess and doesn't sell because the kid doesn't want to pick up their toys, then that's just okay? Because for me it's not. And maybe my house is different than some of yours...but if the toys aren't picked up, that effects my life too and I'm just not okay with doing their work for them because they simply don't feel like it. No one picks up the slack for me when I don't feel like doing things. There are natural consequences that occur when I don't do my jobs...so I'm thinking it's makes sense for kids to have natural consequences of not doing their jobs too.

I am onboard with gentle discipline...and I certainly don't agree with punishment, but I'm also not okay with the work not getting done when it effects other people and their enjoyment of our home, or punishing myself by having to do their work because they just don't feel like it.

Maybe I've missed something here...I'm just looking for some clarity.

I think "what you have missed" is that you really think that if you tell your children that they have failed to meet your expectations and that you expect them to be met in the future AND use active waiting when you have the time...that your children would simply never do as you tell them.

This simply has not been my experience at all. Here I quote from Anthony Wolf from "The Secret of Parenting" with regards to the scenario of picking up their toys for them when they don't do it and you don't have time to actively wait:

_Many people would argue: "The parent can't just pick up the toys..If they do they are letting the child get away with not picking them up. The parent can't do that"

Simply NOT TRUE "As long as the parent make it clear to her child that the child has failed to do their job and continues making similiar demands in the future, the child is not getting away with anything"

*
The proof is what real children do in real situations when their parents critisize their child by saying "I asked you to do this. you didn't and I had to"*

What most children say is "I was gonna. You didn't give me ennough time. It's your fault I couldnt' do it'

Children attempt to fend off the bad feeling that has now invaded their bodies as a result of the criticism (and this is very very mild criticism)

Children get is a lingering feeling that they dont' want to have in the future and thus many times act differently the next time._

I have found this to be OH SO TRUE. If my kids can't "pay" for their wrongdoing with punishement, they know they have to live with the unremitting expectation and having failed in that expectation.

This will serve them much better in life than the threat of punishment. It is the good kind of "guilt." The kind that makes an adult say "Hey people are counting on me, so I better do X."


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

What works in our family is to *ask* for what we need and take ownership of our own needs. I don't require a "bad feeling" to get me to cooperate and help others, and neither does my son. We help each other because we want to. Helping others is a choice I like to make. So does everyone in our family. No guilt or shame is necessary when I model cooperation.

Pat


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Everyone sometimes does things wrong in life. Somtime unintentionally. Sometimes because we give in to our own laziness or self interest.

IMHO, it is those little feelings of guilt that help all of us act better the next time. To me, it's a necessary part of a moral life.

And it's not about "making" your child feel guilty. It's about understanding that it is a healthy and normal reaction in all people to feel guilty when they have not met the needs and expectations of their loved ones.

My point was that this ALONE is ennough to have our children cooperate with us, contraty to what some people believe... that some other consequence is necessary.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

See, I just believe that guilt is not necessary for cooperation. We have an atmosphere of gratitude for others helping out, not demands, expectations, criticism, failure, guilt. Appreciation seems to go such a long way that it isn't necessary to *expect* others to meet our needs. And I don't believe that our son is responsible for meeting my needs anyway. Although, I choose to model helping others meet their needs and he embraces that paradigm too. An atmosphere of freely cooperating is much more joyful than the one I grew up with. Of course, there are times when any one of us is busy doing something else, and someone may not want to help "right now". We respect that too and find ways for all of us to meet our needs.

Pat


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

I like Yooper.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

I just wanted to say thank you to all the mamas who shared their cleaning up strategies. I have not been able to get my dds to help me cleaning, for weeks. No it is not OK with me. I did tell them so, and we tried playfulness, we tried explaining, we tried music, we tried, we tried... If there is one thing I know I need to to work on, this is it. Yesterday, we made a plan. They liked to plan. Then, I did my part, and they did none of theirs, in fact, they started a complicated game and they needed paper and scissors and markers and made more mess, although, they did play quietly for all the time it took for me to clean it all up. I tried the active waiting, and they ran away laughing. When you say for the 30th time over, I am doing this but I expect you to do it next time, well, you know it ain't working. I am not giving up the trying, but to me it is just very very difficult right now. I'll try to talk to them tonight about how we are going to give a gift to the ourselves of tomorrow. We'll see.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Gaialice,

What helps me to decrease the urgency of cleaning is to contain the mess. For instance, play on top of a large flat sheet or blanket, so that the bits and pieces can easily be scooped up and tossed in a playbox or trash, or shaken outside. We have a playroom/workroom where we do crafts. It is behind a door, so that the bits CAN stay from day to day, without me feeling imposed on by the clutter. We work and play in that area and the rest of the house stays picked up. That meets my need for order and ds and friend's needs for crafting and free creative play without the hovering and urging to clean up constantly. Then, on an occasional basis, I clean in one contained area, instead of all floors, all rooms and all surfaces needing to be repeatedly decluttered. The former dining room is the play/work room. It is much more enjoyable to our whole family than a formal dining area.









HTH, Pat


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Thanks Pat, another very good piece of advice. Our apartment is very small, and you're right there is no designated play area. Their room's too small, and then they end up playing in the living room. And the feeling that the toys are all over the place is immediate. I wish I could find a better arrangement, but luckily in a few months (June) we'll move. However, I still need to get to June. The blanket idea is a good one.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

I have a pretty small living room, too (his bedroom is huge but what fun is it to play in there alone?) and I got my DS a big 'ol train table...

After some debate with myself, I put it in the living room and it actually works out really well for us... his trains and toys don't ALWAYS stay on the train table, of course, but they live there when not in use and they are there the majority of the time.

It has REALLY helped with the mess factor. Yes, there is a huge train table in the living, but having a million things on IT is just so much better than having it all over the darn floor.

But, I'm separated so it's just DS and I... it's a lot easier to share your space in my situation. I don't mind sharing that much of the living room because it's his house too... not that I'm saying that isn't the case with a larger family, but it's harder to give everyone a chunk of the living room with 4 or 5 in a family.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Bumping.

Pat


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## maliceinwonderland (Apr 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aimee21972* 
Flame away -------

Heck they don't have to WANT to help -- i do a LOT of chorse i do NOT want to do -- but they need to do.

I've actually told dd this exact thing, not in a nasty way..just more of a "I totally get where you're coming from..some things I hate doing are...xyz"

Sometimes we'll swap, she'll do the dishes for me and make my bed, and I'll pick up her toys, sometimes she just decides to pick up the toys instead of trading chores, but I noticed it seemed easier for her to do the things she needs to do when I empathized and told her about the stuff I hate doing but have to get done anyway. And sometimes we make a plan of it and each spend time doing something we need to get done but don't like, and then go out together and do something we both enjoy.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Bumping.

Pat


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