# Feminism's many faces



## ladyshah (Apr 5, 2004)

I find it very fascinating to go to a variety of different web boards to find different ways women think of "feminism." When planning my wedding a couple years ago, I recall reading bridal websites that really portrayed being "a feminist" as an arch-capitalist, career-focused type of lifestyle. I read such offensive comments against SAHM's as "Some women refuse to earn any money themselves and would rather stay home and leech off of somebody else, thus never developing their own identity except as some guy's wife," or "What is the attraction of throwing away your whole college education? You didn't major in diapers." Many girls also seemed to think that feminism meant measuring women by the size of their paychecks; as one said, even volunteer work or being a store clerk wasn't good enough for her--"Women should only do that in addition to, not instead of, having an intense career."

I then come here and I find that people are a neat blend of choosing to be SAHM's, but also being more 'modern women' in many other aspects; such as progressive activism, and not allowing ourselves to be doormats to our DH's. As NFL parents, we still claim to be "feminists" as we assert our own rights; yet we reject the capitalistic idea that we are only worth the money we earn.

How do people feel about the fact that many young women, who do plan to marry and have families, still feel that being home and bonded to one's children means "throwing your life away" or not being worth anything? I felt sad reading it because these were promising young women, but I see them as highly mainstream moms in a few years.

Has feminism simply gone from defining women one way (their housewife skills) to definining them by a new societal standard (their paychecks and careers)? Or, is feminism what we define it to be?

Just looking for some perspectives here and trying to start an interesting/civil discussion.


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## Sisyphus (Mar 26, 2003)

Interesting question...

I think that as we age, our perspective changes. I'd bet money that most of the women who were spewing the "paycheck = worth" crap were young, just starting out. I know I felt a lot like that when I was in my teens and twenties... I was out to prove that I was just as good and how was I going to do that if I sat at home all day and changed diapers?? LOL... how things change. Now, I am the ONLY feminist in my family (still) AND the only SAHM LOLOLOL.... when I went to my 20 year HS reunion a couple months ago, no one could BELIEVE that *I* was a SAHM. THAT is how intense I was on having a successful career and NOT "buying in" to the stereotype...

Well, the older I got, the more I realized that I'd just traded one stereotype for another and that life was WAY more complex than "choose one, A or B". I had a wonderful career, and gave it up to raise my kids. It's a decision that I don't regret, but I do *miss* having a job outside the home sometimes for lots of reasons, none of which are good enough to convince me to go back to work any time soon.

So, I think that it's not a lost cause with younger women... I think they will grow into their own feminism as they age.

Lo


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

I am interested in the term "throwing away your education", this has always made me laugh. Knowlege, however it is gained, is just that - knowlege. Why can't we learn, get degrees and high education just to expand our knowlege? There is always this pressure to "put it to use". I am a highly educated person, and what I choose to do with that education and knowlege is my business. If I study to be a doctor and then choose to arrange flowers for a living, is that wasting my education? I would still know how to heal and operate - and that is all that counts.


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

My understanding is that feminism is the "belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes." (dictionary.com)

That means to me, that women are equal to men, and therefore should have the same rights as men in this country.
It doesn't mean that women should act like men, not unless they personally want to.
Since we are equal to men, the things that we do that are natural to us are as valuable as things that men do that are natural to them. It's honorable for a man to work on a construction site, using their strong bodies to lift huge chunks of steel or whatnot. So it ought to be honorable for us to stay home and nurse our babies if we so desire, or if we are strong and muscular and want to, we ought to be able to work on a construction site.

I dislike the sects of feminism that acts like to be taken seriously a woman must conform to some stereotypical male lifestyle. I won't name any names, but they are feminists with an i first.
;-)


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## Lil'M (Oct 27, 2002)

As a longtime feminist, I never thought I would be a SAHM and felt apologetic to my dh when I was pregnant and realized that I really wanted to be at home with my baby! I wanted to breastfeed, I wanted to be the primary caregiver, and I wanted my baby to have the benefit of my love and my education. I feel very fortunate that it was possible for me to do this. Feminism is about women being able to make the choices they feel are best for their lives. When women were told they couldn't be in the workforce, that was the area that many feminists worked on. I think today the fight needs to be focused on increasing all choices for women (and men and families).


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## Meli65 (Apr 29, 2002)

Interesting stuff. I worked for 15 years before I became a SAHM -- most of my friends (in NY/NJ) hired a nanny and went back to work. We moved to Ohio so we could better afford for me to stay home.

That being said, I do worry a bit about women's status in the career marketplace -- if it ever became accepted that women take off 5-10 years when they start having children, what company would ever bother to hire women in management-track positions? Unless at the same time we experienced sweepeing Swedish-style (or even Candian) social change re: maternity and paternity leaves and benefits.

Hmm.

BTW, I consider myself a feminist -- always have. Always find it weird when women say, "I'm not a feminist, but...."


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

I was wondering about something...are the award wages for Americans actually distinguished, eg, males get $2, women get $1.50? (example figures of course). Or is it something that is negotiated with the boss, and men in general get higher rates that way? I ask because there is often mention of rates of pay between men and women, and I was wondering how that works.


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## ladyshah (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lolov*
Interesting question...

I think that as we age, our perspective changes. I'd bet money that most of the women who were spewing the "paycheck = worth" crap were young, just starting out. I know I felt a lot like that when I was in my teens and twenties... I was out to prove that I was just as good and how was I going to do that if I sat at home all day and changed diapers?? LOL... how things change. Now, I am the ONLY feminist in my family (still) AND the only SAHM LOLOLOL.... when I went to my 20 year HS reunion a couple months ago, no one could BELIEVE that *I* was a SAHM. THAT is how intense I was on having a successful career and NOT "buying in" to the stereotype...

Well, the older I got, the more I realized that I'd just traded one stereotype for another and that life was WAY more complex than "choose one, A or B". I had a wonderful career, and gave it up to raise my kids. It's a decision that I don't regret, but I do *miss* having a job outside the home sometimes for lots of reasons, none of which are good enough to convince me to go back to work any time soon.

So, I think that it's not a lost cause with younger women... I think they will grow into their own feminism as they age.

Lo


Actually, many of the women saying that were the over-30 brides. The under-30 ones were more likely to want traditional roles...very interesting huh!!!


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## ladyshah (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Meli65*
Interesting stuff. I worked for 15 years before I became a SAHM -- most of my friends (in NY/NJ) hired a nanny and went back to work. We moved to Ohio so we could better afford for me to stay home.

That being said, I do worry a bit about women's status in the career marketplace -- if it ever became accepted that women take off 5-10 years when they start having children, what company would ever bother to hire women in management-track positions? Unless at the same time we experienced sweepeing Swedish-style (or even Candian) social change re: maternity and paternity leaves and benefits.

Hmm.

BTW, I consider myself a feminist -- always have. Always find it weird when women say, "I'm not a feminist, but...."


Agreed--and I think if it were accepted, then maybe there would be better benefits--e.g., women would be respected for taking the time off, and welcomed back, instead of respected less as workers because they spent time with their families. The problem is that we have sexist types not accepting the idea of women in management, so they don't promote them to begin with, and then the capitalist-feminists I mentioned having trouble with women taking time to be at home, so that women are not considered 'trustworthy' workers if they do so.

In general, the pattern I see is that women, unlike men, are always expected to follow *someone's* societal expectation, rather than being recognized for who they are and what their desires are. kwim?









I think folks here said it best--feminism should be about choice--and women will not be truly liberated until we can live by our *own* standards, and not men's standards, feminist standards, stereotype's standards, etc. But the women's movement was definitely, and still is, necessary.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

For myself, being a feminist means I *celebrate* what makes me different from men.
It also means doing what I can to change the world's consciousness to a more caring, peaceful, matriarchal way of thinking and being. Celebrating the sacred feminine and empowering other women to do the same


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## maureenfh (Mar 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm*
I was wondering about something...are the award wages for Americans actually distinguished, eg, males get $2, women get $1.50? (example figures of course). Or is it something that is negotiated with the boss, and men in general get higher rates that way? I ask because there is often mention of rates of pay between men and women, and I was wondering how that works.

I think it's a combination of things...women may get less for the exact same job sometimes, but of course they could sue for discimination (although for fear of losing the job, many might not). It might also have to do with the fact that many women take jobs with lower pay so they can have the flexibility to care for their children (like teaching, nursing, part-time, etc.). And maybe men are more successful at negotiating for more money (for whatever reason).


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## bayviewbill33 (Sep 15, 2004)

I'm a husband to a SAHM. I'm not well versed about feminism except it seems like some of it has moved to male bashing. I think our society should respect whatever choice a woman makes - career or SAHM. I do feel one of the parents stay home and raise the children. It is too bad if any woman is critisized for staying at home. I feel if a woman who chooses to stay at home, are not hurting any movement or progress. In fact, she is contributing to progress by investing in her children. I hope I was not off topic.

I have two questions: How do we know women are earning less than men? It must be reported somewhere for it to be reported. If it is reported, how can companies continue to illegally pay less? It does not make sense to me. I am NOT saying it does not happen. I know it should not happen, but how wide spread is it? I wonder if the numbers are accurate.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

I'm a long time feminist. Kept my name upon marriage. Had a team approach to marriage and partnership; sharing chores, taking turns finishing our schooling and such.

I am using my degree here at home, but I majored in education. I have had human growth and development, child psych and behavior mod classes.

I am fortunate enough to have a hubby who makes enough for me to stay home. I choose to be here. I may return to "real" work at some point. But for now everything runs smoother because of my time and effort.

My kids know that women have amazing choices here in the U.S. My son respects girls and women. My daughter knows she can be anything, but also hopes to show the same devotion to her kids that I have mine.

Folks tell me I can't be a homemaker and a feminist. I tell them that's just dead wrong. And I give them the litany of why.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

What is a feminist?


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## maureenfh (Mar 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boston*
My understanding is that feminism is the "belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes." (dictionary.com)

This sums it up. There are many different ways of interpreting this. Some sects of feminism (the ones that get all the negative press, but are really in the minority) are very pro-woman/anti-men, but most feminists work to ensure that women are treated equally to men. Of course, for most feminists, "equally" does not mean "the same" as women bear the biological burden (and gift) of bearing children. Many feminists also work toward equal justice for all humans, including men (although women and children seem to be more frequently the victims of social injustice). Some feminists believe in the inherent differences between the sexes (nurturing vs. aggressive tendencies) and some believe that men and women are psychologically similar but are forced into roles by our biology. So the dictionary definition is really a pretty darn good indication of "feminism," as long as you realize that not all feminists agree.

This is a concise list of the major "types" of feminism, although it certainly doesn't include the feminist attitudes of everyone: http://www.ecu.edu/wost/Types.html


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Thank you Maureen. I have always struggled with the term, as it was often put across as a negative. I guess I am a feminist then. Cool. I'm a feminist!


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## maureenfh (Mar 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm*
Thank you Maureen. I have always struggled with the term, as it was often put across as a negative. I guess I am a feminist then. Cool. I'm a feminist!

Excellent! Welcome to the club.







I do feel that we feminists have done a bad job of PR when I hear modern women who believe in equal rights for women say things like, "I'm not a feminist, but..."


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

And not only that, but my husband is a feminist! He just told me that is possible. And he said that in this instance, equal does not equal same, and I think so too.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

I think that feminism means not seeing women with a set of pre-conceived ideas, whatever those prejudices be. For me, the largest part of feminism is not always being seen as a thing first - a sexy thing, a weak thing, a baby-rearing thing.

I think that the women who the op mentioned who have a very strict idea that feminists cannot be SAHMs are really not very feminist in that they are still trapped in the 2 choice system. (And we all know how two choices really aren't a choice at all.) I think that to be feminist you have to be willing to embrace many different ways of being rather than only imagine 1 or 2 ways to be a woman.

I also think that they are just naive. When they have children, then I would want to know what they thought about SAHMs. I am not saying that they would all choose to SAH and/or "realize" WOH is "bad," b/c I don't think that is true. I think they don't know what they are talking about until they choose for themselves.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

I'm wondering how feminism went "bad"?

To me feminism isn't about working v staying home, money or not..It's about wanting equality for women. And I mean equality in the work place and at home. I mean for the end of devalueing (sp?) a woman no matter what role(s) she plays in life.

Feminism means being active in this mission of equality through voting and education.

So, I wonder how feminism turned into a her against her fight.







:


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## calpurnia (Sep 26, 2004)

By the by, I heard on the radio today that women are paid 80p for every £1 a man earns.

I'm interested in a completely anecdotal shift my friend & I have identified. It seems to us that our sub section of our generation (we're all 20/21) are all very focused on domesticity. We're all in long term couples, most of us living with our partners, planning to have children young - & we wondered if this was a reaction to the oft-reported difficulties of women who try "to have it all", who are I suppose the generation between us & our mothers. Couple this with the trend towards "ladylike"/30s/50s fashions at the moment & books like Nigella Lawson's "How to be a Domestic Goddess" & a complete lack of interest in feminism (for example, at my university of about 18,000 people, there are about 30 women who are signed up to Women's Group - & only about 10 who attend on a semi regular basis) & what's happening? A move back to "traditional" roles? Do you think this is a shift away from feminism? Or do you think it is just another face?

(Don't want anyone to read this as me thinking children, staying at home, not being career driven is not completely valid - it is the choice I intend to make. My partner tells me I have no ambition. The fact is that the ambition I have is not recognised as valid amongst young university educated women - I want to have children. I suppose that's another face - that to want children & not want to put them into daycare straight away is not "feminist") Ugh what rambling inside brackets! I'm all over the place with my thoughts. I find feminism at the moment a very confusing place.


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## maureenfh (Mar 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Potty Diva*
So, I wonder how feminism turned into a her against her fight.







:

Interesting, huh? It's as if some patriarchal society decided that women should argue amongst themselves so as not to *actually* be able to work to gain any equal footing in society.









As to calpurnia's point about younger women reverting to "traditional" values, I do think it is a bit of a reaction to watching older women try to have it all, but I also think that older feminists (from the 60's/second wave) might feel as if all they worked for has been for naught. I think that the fact that some of us get to choose to work or stay home is a big step forward, but remember, NOT EVERYONE gets a choice. Many women have to work to support themselves and their families, and for women of color, there isn't a "long" history of stay-at-home moms filling the "traditional" role. I say "long" in quotes because before the 1950's, middle class and poor white women usually had to work, and our image of women staying home and tending only the home is most likely an upper class, revisionist history (working outside the home is a relatively new phenomenon). And "traditional" is in quotes because I find it interesting that we are told what women are supposed to do "traditionally" when women throughout history are so different depending on geography, class, etc. that I think it might be impossible to have a single "tradition." After all, aren't many of us on this site because "mainstream" sites don't meet all our needs, and look how many of us there are!

Sorry...too long and rambling. My main point is that I think that feminism should allow women to make their own choices, based on their own experiences and knowledge, and not have to accept what they are fed by societal norms.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Yeah, Maureen, I agree. I think we are different, but equal (to men, of course, not so much to trees, although, we are equal to trees, at least







: sorry, got the sillies).

Seriously though, if we should choose to be wife and mother, then that shouldn't diminish our stance femininity wise. Has anyone seen Mona Lisa Smile? It was about this.


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## Aquaduct (Nov 27, 2003)

Hey, it is not just about women lacking choices. Men lack them too. Some men are not ambitious about jobs and a lot of women would denigrate them because of their perception they cannot be good providers. This is so instinctive I suspect it is almost genetic.

But really these men are feminists....they want women to have the chance to take the lead financially...but most women don't want that. They want it all.

If you want equality you must also take on the extra responsibilities that come with it. imo.

Women say the way to a man's heart is thru his stomach. Some men say, the way to a woman's heart is thru your wallet.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aquaduct*
Hey, it is not just about women lacking choices. Men lack them too. Some men are not ambitious about jobs and a lot of women would denigrate them because of their perception they cannot be good providers. This is so instinctive I suspect it is almost genetic.

But really these men are feminists....they want women to have the chance to take the lead financially...but most women don't want that. They want it all.

If you want equality you must also take on the extra responsibilities that come with it. imo.

Women say the way to a man's heart is thru his stomach. Some men say, the way to a woman's heart is thru your wallet.

I happen to be a feminist who DOES want it all, and I deserve it!

I want equal pay for equal time and work, I want to choice to defend my country in battle if I desire to, I want opportunity to work in historically male dominated jobs, such as construction, science, and math...I want it all! I want the choice to stay home with my children and not be devalued for it, I want my husband to stand up for my rights just as I stand up for him. I want equality in the home as well. I want the removal of streotypical labels so jobs/chores/sports/ and other activities can be accomplished successfully by women and men. I want men to have the choice to stay home with their children if they so choose without being devalued for it. I want men to persue historically female dominated jobs and succeed at them without being made to feel femmy because they chose them.

You see, I don't just want it all for women, I want it all for women AND men.


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## Mona (May 22, 2003)

GREAT post potty diva.
i'm so glad you said it all, i just don't have the energy to put into this one AGAIN


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## Aquaduct (Nov 27, 2003)

Well Potty Diva, that's just great, it sounds like you're an equalist. Those are fine words, but I wonder if they will be backed up by actions. Life is pretty complex and you can't have extra freedoms without extra responsibilities.

I wonder if you would put up with a man who just wanted to be a house-husband and had no financial ambitions in the highly competitive society of the USA? Many men don't mind that in their partners, but I only have to peruse some of the threads on this site right now to hear women complaining about their husbands lack of financial ambition.

I could tell you so many stories from the guys angle about how we get judged on the size of our bank balances. I had a friend who worked in TV, had a glamourous job, high salary, and till he developed a chronic health problem that made him lose everything in his mid-thirties, had no problems at all finding a nice woman to have a relationship with. Once he walked back to his expensive status-laden car to find a woman sitting on the bonnet waiting for him!

Alas for him, once he lost his house and all the trappings of success as he wrestled with the illness, he seemed to lose all attractiveness to women. He's better now, has nearly normal energy, is much the same person he was before except he's still poor,(intelligent, generous etc) but since the illness he hasn't had a single girlfriend. That's 12 years and that's a long time I think you'll agree.

I find the contrast interesting, don't you? By the way, his illness wasn't at all infectious or contagious...it was to do with his spine and joints. To look at him you would not know he was sick, except he was rather stiff.

By contrast, his best friend who is not good-looking and far from charismatic usually lucked out when it came to being attractive to the ladies. He was an austere kind of guy who lived on an ashram and did tons of yoga. He wasn't wealthy by any means. Then around the time my friend was plummeting on the social scale, he came across a patent that helps plants grow more quickly. Over the next few years he worked incredibly hard to set up a business using this patent and now he is a multi-millionaire.

And he has women throwing themselves at him!


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## the sunshine (Jul 31, 2003)

You know if women KNEW they could make a decent living, we could do away with that stereotype of women throwing themselves at "rich" men. I'd rather be able to support myself than know I might have to depend on a man, as some women in some countries literally have to do for their very lives.

How would equal pay/opportunites hurt anyone?

I also would ask if your wonderful rich friend was extremely choosey about the physical attractiveness of women, and a million other things.

This is what feminism is about--destroying inequalities, making things better for everyone. And I'd guess that those women who supposedly only went for the guy who was rich didn't consider themselves feminist anyway.


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## Aquaduct (Nov 27, 2003)

You're very idealistic. The scenario of everyone knowing they can make a decent living is fairytale stuff. Something like 40 million Americans I believe live below the poverty line and men are well represented there too.

I'm all for equality of pay for women, but why just stop there? Why not equality of pay for everyone...from each according to his or her means, to each according to his or her needs? Why should Bill Gates, Donald Trump, Dick Cheney and people like that make zillions more than the guy who teaches maths at a high school? Are they really a thousand thousand times more valuable than him, or the nurse in the hospital who looks after the geriatrics?

About the women going after my friend's friend. That wasn't a stereotype...it was an observation. And you're right, he probably does prefer good-looking women...most men do. In my books, and obviously this is a generalisation, men go after looks, and women go after money. The female sex is not morally superior to the male sex, though sometimes I think they think they are.

I'll give you that in a lot of third world countries it is really bad for many women and they have little choice. But in my country very few people indeed have any chance of starving, of living in abject poverty. We have a social welfare programme that's not great( though pretty reasonable by comparison to your country...we don't cut off the dole or any benefits after a certain time which is pretty radical and punitive on the poor if you ask me) but is there as a safety net, and while women don't have pay parity yet, they are more easily employed these days. So I don't think you can argue that it is fear of abject poverty, of a life of penury that is making women find this acquaintance of mine so damned attractive to them suddenly.

I don't know whether these women were feminists or not.


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## maureenfh (Mar 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aquaduct*
I'm all for equality of pay for women, but why just stop there? Why not equality of pay for everyone...from each according to his or her means, to each according to his or her needs? Why should Bill Gates, Donald Trump, Dick Cheney and people like that make zillions more than the guy who teaches maths at a high school? Are they really a thousand thousand times more valuable than him, or the nurse in the hospital who looks after the geriatrics?

Ah, you've hit on another feminist issue. Interestingly, many "traditionally" female-dominated jobs (nursing, teaching, and other service jobs) are often low paying in comparison to "traditionally" male-dominated jobs (anything that makes money). Yet another group of feminists subscribes to a Marxist philosophy, arguing that capitalism is inherently unfair to someone (i.e. someone has to be in a service/worker position in order for the system to work...someone has to empty the trash cans, for instance).

As for why your rich friend gets lots of dates, I have to say that I used to be attracted to the men who had no jobs and refused to help out around the house (and would sit around a dirty house all day not cleaning or making dinner while I worked 3 jobs). I was lucky enough to fall in love with someone who is a fantastic, nurturing, caring person, who also has a job and helps with the housework. The job was the bonus, not the attraction. Not all women want money, but it's nice to know that you don't have to do everything by yourself.


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## Aquaduct (Nov 27, 2003)

Pay disparity is not a feminist issue, or at least, only in certain aspects. It is really a human issue.

Take a 40 year old African-American who didn't get a great education and compare his job prospects to a young white middle-class woman who grew up with books, computers etc. and went to university. Who's better off? It's no contest for the white woman with the middle-class background.

She has the disadvantage of her sex, but that is easily cancelled out and superseded by the advantage of her race, class, youth, cultural heritage, and intelligence.

Pay disparity is far more important in terms of race and class alone, than in terms of sex. Even a really great looking white woman who doesn't have much intelligence, nor a good education etc. has a much greater "market value" than virtually any black men growing up on the wrong side of the tracks.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Yes. It all needs balancing out. This kind of hierachy is flaming in politics for example - it is the best place to see how it works. White educated male = best chance - even president.
white educated female = next best chance, only slightly better than -
White female/any other colored male = same next best chance.
and so on.

Politics is a shining example of the environment of work/life in general. Although the color of someone's skin or their gender play no part in people I employ, I certainly take intelligence or education over the opposite, preferably both combined. Which stems back to the availability of quality education/life experience which then stems further back into the same cycle.

In the case of my business, anyone could work for me, if they were suitable for the job.


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## maureenfh (Mar 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aquaduct*
Pay disparity is not a feminist issue, or at least, only in certain aspects. It is really a human issue.

Ah, but see, most of the feminists I know would argue that while the word feminism implies that we work only for women's rights, most feminists work equally hard for civil rights for all people, in all countries. I am keenly aware of the advantages I have as a well-educated, reasonably attractive, young-ish white woman, and I would never claim that I am THE victim of society. Everything is relative, and one's place in society changes based on who you compare yourself to. The black women's feminist movement works VERY hard to help black men, since they (as a group, not necessarily as individuals) seem to have the most trouble getting society to treat them equally. In fact, when people tell me that they aren't feminists, but are "humanists," I tell them that I interpret those words as being the same. The word feminist has gotten a bad rap, but it really means someone who believes in equal rights.


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## Aquaduct (Nov 27, 2003)

Well, you and Calm sound like really nice people, and I certainly have no arguments with the type of feminism you're espousing. All power to you both!

I'm a guy who isn't well off, due to a chronic health problem I have, so even though I am white and well educated I certainly know what it is like to be near the bottom of "the food chain". Believe me there are huge pressures on men to be good financial providers, and sometimes, with all the best will in the world, that is simply not possible. It is very hard not to feel devalued at times.

I guess it is all karma in the end.


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## the sunshine (Jul 31, 2003)

If you believe that you are being discriminated against for being a man or being unhealthy, you are free to start your own movement to rectify the situation.

Aquaduct, feminism is not so black and white. It's about the whole picture, not just this particular situation or that one.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Oh, Aqua, I didn't realise. And that would no doubt make it harder to do much about it, too. You are right, and I just want you to know that the first important thing with any change is that someone is listening. I am listening.









Any woman that would only want you when you are in tip top shape and financially well off isn't someone you would be happy with in the long run anyway. I fell in love with my husband when he had a broken neck and chances were that he wouldn't walk again. He is ok now, but the point is, there are people out there with different views, they are just harder to find.


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## MomEarth (Oct 22, 2004)

.


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## Mona (May 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MomEarth*
Ladyshah, I think of myself as a feminist as well. However, lately, I think the feminist movement in general is taking a giant radical turn towards lesbianism and separatism. Has anyone else found that to be true too?

Most of the feminist websites I used to go to are now filled with men-hating lesbian or bisexual women~ and some transgender women also. I'm not finding fault with any of these groups and in fact, I consider myself quite accepting of all groups of women. But I think the feminist groups of today are starting to exclude heterosexual, married women on the basis that if we are partnered with men and happen to love certain men in our lives, then we're somehow betraying "the cause", so to speak.

I don't know. That's just the feel I'm getting. It seems the tide is changing and I don't like the direction it's flowing in. Maybe it's just me though~ who knows.

Honestly, no.
No.
and No.
:LOL

I have found that feminism today is mulit-vaceted--- it reaches out to women on a variety of levels, depending on where that woman is. IE- there is a more radical feminst for those who lean towards separatism. And there is a less radical feminism.

But over all, i think it is for the middle of the road woman looking for equity and equality.


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## Aquaduct (Nov 27, 2003)

I think you are right Calm. That sounds like quite a story how you and your husband met. It sounds to me as though you know what love is. He is a lucky man, I'm sure!

Yes, it's tough being sick. The buddha said nothing will test your fortitude more than having a chronic illness. He was right (as usual). But I like to think I am bearing up well.

But this is off topic.


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## MomEarth (Oct 22, 2004)

.


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## the sunshine (Jul 31, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MomEarth*
lately, I think the feminist movement in general is taking a giant radical turn towards lesbianism and separatism. Has anyone else found that to be true too?

Most of the feminist websites I used to go to are now filled with men-hating lesbian or bisexual women~ and some transgender women also. I'm not finding fault with any of these groups and in fact, I consider myself quite accepting of all groups of women. But I think the feminist groups of today are starting to exclude heterosexual, married women on the basis that if we are partnered with men and happen to love certain men in our lives, then we're somehow betraying "the cause", so to speak.

I don't know. That's just the feel I'm getting. It seems the tide is changing and I don't like the direction it's flowing in. Maybe it's just me though~ who knows.

Oh my, I've not seen feminism like that and I think I get around. The boards I go to, and there are probably seven or so, don't give me that feeling AT ALL! In fact, they have huge debates on how to be more inclusive of all women.


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## Aquaduct (Nov 27, 2003)

Even the ones who love men Sunshine?


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## Mona (May 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aquaduct*
Even the ones who love men Sunshine?


eh?


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## the sunshine (Jul 31, 2003)

frankly, aquaduct, I hope you're being facetious. otherwise you're treading quite close to insult.


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## Aquaduct (Nov 27, 2003)

I think I was being about as facetious/insulting as you were when you graciously suggested I set up my own movement to stop discrimination by women against men with chronic illnesses, my good woman.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

touche


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## the sunshine (Jul 31, 2003)

Not "touche" in the least. Women have worked damned hard to get where we are today, with little money and even less help. Should we be required to share what little we have to help men? Seriously, men in general have way more resources than women do.

And frankly, when things are better for women, they become better for children and men as well, as a lovely side effect.


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## the sunshine (Jul 31, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aquaduct*
I think I was being about as facetious/insulting as you were when you graciously suggested I set up my own movement to stop discrimination by women against men with chronic illnesses, my good woman.

Whoa, wait a minute. It's discrimination if a woman doesn't want to _date_ you?


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

I said touche, not because you don't have a point, for you do, but because Aqua has a point too. Aqua made a heartfelt statement earlier, and I got what he was saying. He has a right to feel that way, and it makes sense he would feel that way. Your response to it shocked me, and was far from compassionate. Lay down your guns, as I saw who drew first blood here, and it wasn't Aqua.

Quote:

Should we be required to share what little we have to help men? Seriously, men in general have way more resources than women do.
Keep in mind that if it wasn't for many men, we wouldn't have gotten as far as we did. This does sound as though "men are on their own", and if that is your position, you are entitled to it. But as a woman with a male family, as a woman who loves many men and respects their many plights, AS WELL as the female's plights in my life - I don't follow such thought pattern. I extend my compassion to all, indiscriminately - so if a man is in trouble, or being discriminated against, I am there in whatever capacity I can be.









A man has joined this discussion with even tempered, valid emotion - this kind of push off doesn't say what I want feminism to say to such people. So, I guess Mona's feeling was right after all.


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## the sunshine (Jul 31, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *the sunshine*
And frankly, when things are better for women, they become better for children and men as well, as a lovely side effect.

And as I said before, nothing is stopping anyone from starting a Mens Antidiscrimination League, I'm not trying to be snarky. I just don't think that men should expect women to pick up their banner when women still have so far to go. I was certainly not trying to draw blood.

And it's men who've run the world so far--please, work with other men (or women) who feel as you do. I don't hate men. How does sticking up for women equal hating men?

And I still do not see how not wanting to date someone equals discrimination. Please see the thread in this forum about the young woman not allowed to work the projector _because_ she is a girl. That's discrimination.


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## Aquaduct (Nov 27, 2003)

You assume a lot Sunshine. I was never asking women to pick up my banner as regards discrimination against the chronically ill men. I was asking for more understanding. Instead from you I feel I did get a snarky comment, but nevermind.

You also have a very narrow idea of what discrimination is. Of course some motives for not dating or marrying someone can be based on discrimination! Hitler's Germany made it a crime against the state to have a relationship with Jewish people, as one very flagrant example. And because of anti-semitism being so prevalent in Germany he was able to get away with that. Hitler hated weakness of any kind and a lot of people with disabilities were killed too. I know how in Indian culture a person with epilepsy in their history will find it pretty hard to find a marriage partner. And you will be well aware I'm sure of how hard it can be for widows to remarry in India. Just a few examples.

I think one point I have been trying to make is no-one should be above criticism.

Anyhow, I've said all I wanted to say on the subject.

Thanks for your support Calm.


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## lunamomma (Mar 10, 2004)

As a young mother of two children 3 years and 8 months I am pressured everyday to do what others expect- for some it is finishing my graduate work, for others it is becoming a Christian and staying at home under the watchful eye of my husband.

Many or most of us have been at home with our babes and at other points worked or worked on our career or life purpose. I have come to appreciate and respect all aspects of Women's work- and it is ALL women's work. I have compared being "simply" a housewife to that of a CEO. Look at the similarities in management and delegation etc. If being a housewife and mother were a man's job - we would get paid, have benefits and time off.

I've been a stay at home mother and loved it and now my spirit called me back to school. I think as feminist we have to first acknowledge the depth of the work we do , celebrate it as sisters and daughters of the earth and stop professionalizing the struggle. It is about those women who work at the local grocery store as much as it is about the lawyer or business woman.

Like I said as a young, married woman there are many contradictory roles that I am suppose to play- let's just realize that important events occur at different times and for different reasons in women's lives and our lives do NOT mirror men's lives and their accomplishments. Its time that we expand and create our own standards that emcompass all women as freedom fighters and survivors of patriarchial domination (i.e. BUSH, but that's another thread.)
__________________________________________________ _______________

Bah, bah black sheep signing off........


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maureenfh*
I think it's a combination of things...women may get less for the exact same job sometimes, but of course they could sue for discimination (although for fear of losing the job, many might not). It might also have to do with the fact that many women take jobs with lower pay so they can have the flexibility to care for their children (like teaching, nursing, part-time, etc.). And maybe men are more successful at negotiating for more money (for whatever reason).

Statistically, women make less money for the same exact job. Look at Library Directors, for example: http://www.ala.org/ala/hrdr/librarye...ydirectors.htm

In the public sector (not counting schools) 65% of the Library Directors are female and the average salary earned by those women is over $10,000 less than the male Library Directors.


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aquaduct*
You assume a lot Sunshine. I was never asking women to pick up my banner as regards discrimination against the chronically ill men. I was asking for more understanding. Instead from you I feel I did get a snarky comment, but nevermind.

You also have a very narrow idea of what discrimination is. Of course some motives for not dating or marrying someone can be based on discrimination! Hitler's Germany made it a crime against the state to have a relationship with Jewish people, as one very flagrant example. And because of anti-semitism being so prevalent in Germany he was able to get away with that. Hitler hated weakness of any kind and a lot of people with disabilities were killed too. I know how in Indian culture a person with epilepsy in their history will find it pretty hard to find a marriage partner. And you will be well aware I'm sure of how hard it can be for widows to remarry in India. Just a few examples.

I think one point I have been trying to make is no-one should be above criticism.

Anyhow, I've said all I wanted to say on the subject.

Thanks for your support Calm.

I get the feeling that you're involved in some sort of Indian religion? In that case, you seem a bit preoccupied and focused on the bodily platform as opposed to recognizing that we are all spirit souls.


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## Aquaduct (Nov 27, 2003)

You might be right. I am often in a dilemma about that one.

Karma yoga or bhakti yoga?

Do we try to save the world or see it all as illusion? That's a big one.

Human rights? I believe in them. But it is karma too.

Your thoughts?


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## kavamamakava (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aquaduct*
You might be right. I am often in a dilemma about that one.

Karma yoga or bhakti yoga?

Do we try to save the world or see it all as illusion? That's a big one.

Human rights? I believe in them. But it is karma too.

Your thoughts?

If your goal is to save the world, you can do so while seeing everyone as a spirit soul and not on the bodily platform


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

To save the world, in Buddhism at any rate, one must first see it as an illusion. Enlighen one's self, then move to save others. However, I have yet to see one buddhist who waits :LOL, we all get our hands dirty trying to save the world in some way - for suffering of others literally hurts us all. This certainly puts a dampener on our enlightenment goals. I find it hard to meditate when someone is bleeding on my coat, and my new shirt has been used to wrap the wounds. But while we wait for the ambulance, I would call those moments quite zen.

Peace is a state of mind, not a state of the world. If we want world peace, we can get it - one lost soul at a time.


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## Aquaduct (Nov 27, 2003)

You put it so well Calm.


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