# I want the bad side of raw milk...



## mom2tatum (Mar 14, 2007)

I want the risks...and how to know if where I am buying it is safe or risky. It seems I only hear the benefits of it on these boards, and I have no idea if most of the people drinking it live in a rural farmy area where its not a question. But I don't know ANYONE in my local area who buys it (Lancaster probably is the closest dairy farm area which is an hour and a half away), so I don't really feel secure...although I did learn that I can buy it at a local natural market. I just don't like to hear one sided arguments, that doesn't make me feel safe. I prefer to know all the information - the good, the bad, the ugly. Anyone out there have information to help...I guess I should ask in FYT as well. Thanks!


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

The biggest risk in raw milk is that, if the dairy workers aren't careful with hygeine, the milk could be contaminated and bad germs won't be pasturized away. If the cows are generally healthy and a little accidental contamination happens, the good germs will proabbly crowd out the bad germs and it's still safe to drink. But if this happens a lot, especially if the cows aren't healthy, then the milk could be unsafe.

Most dairies selling raw milk have healthy cows and reasonable hygiene practices involving milking and milk storage, but it's a good idea to check out the individual farm you'll be buying from.

Another "down side" to raw milk is that the texture is a bit different from homogenized milk (the cream floats to the top) and the flavor can vary depending on the cow's diet. So, you may not like the taste if you're used to supermarket milk (of course, the inverse is also true and supermarket milk can taste "off" when you're used to raw milk.)

And there's the expense and availability- it's far simpler to buy a package of pasturized homogenized milk at the local supermarket than it is to research a dairy and drive out to the farm to buy milk.


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## pixiepunk (Mar 11, 2003)

i would think in a state like Pennsylvania you really don't need to worry nearly as much as in states where raw milk is prohibited. Pennsylvania has regulations and requirements in place for those who sell raw milk. in fact my raw milk comes from Pennsylvania.


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## BusyBeeMom (May 15, 2005)

My grandmother contracted tuberculosis from raw milk. It settled in her kidneys (rather than her lungs, unusual but not unheard of) and she had to have a kidney removed. She did survive this though.


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## Mirzam (Sep 9, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BusyBeeMom* 
My grandmother contracted tuberculosis from raw milk. It settled in her kidneys (rather than her lungs, unusual but not unheard of) and she had to have a kidney removed. She did survive this though.

The interesting thing is though, that raw milk was a common treatment for TB.


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## avendesora (Sep 23, 2004)

I would NEVER buy raw milk from a factory farm. That, I'm sure, would be dangerous. I think of raw milk like sushi - I would never eat raw fish from the supermarket, but I have no problem eating raw fish at a sushi bar. Fish that is intended to be eaten raw is treated much more carefully than fish that expects to be cooked fully.

I don't know exactly where you are...

There's a raw milk dairy in Telford and one near New Hope. There's a raw milk buying club (alternating the pickups from Telford) in Huntingdon Valley.

It's part of the PA laws that raw milk may only be sold direct from the dairy. I sort of like that, because then you know it's fresh, and if there ever were to be a problem, it would be easy to find who all bought the milk.

The milk from the dairy in New Hope is the most beautiful golden color. If you're nervous, you could always heat it yourself. But regardless of the raw/pasteurized issue, getting fresh milk from grass-fed cows is way better than corn-fed cows.

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions about the specific dairies.

Aven


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## BusyBeeMom (May 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *uccomama* 
The interesting thing is though, that raw milk was a common treatment for TB.

Hmm, what do you know...I can see how healthy raw milk with its antimicrobials might be of help, but if the cow was infected w/TB, no good. Anyway, the story goes that what saved grandmom was a dog. She was on bed rest (this was pre-abx) b/c there wasn't much they could do, and her father bought her a dog so that she could look out the window at him and wanting to play would help her get better







I thought it was a sweet story.

Oh, and I'm sure TB from raw milk is exceedingly rare, if it even ever happens nowadays...but OP said she wanted to hear the dark side, so I obliged.


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## emilet (Sep 23, 2007)

I think listeria infection can be a concern - particularly for pregnant women or children.


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## Quaniliaz (Oct 11, 2002)

Another risk of drinking raw milk is Eupatorium rugosum or White snakeroot - drinking raw milk from cows who have consumed this plant is highly toxic - although anyone in the business of selling raw milk is likely to be well aware of this and careful that it is not growing in pasture areas.

Again - this points to the importance of knowing and trusting your farmer if you are in an area where this is possible.


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## mom2tatum (Mar 14, 2007)

Ok...getting some things I wanted to be aware of. Now, to the you last few posters, do you drink raw milk despite these things? Or is the risk of it too much for you to seek the benefits? Just curious. Anyone else, please post...

I checked into the local natural market, and they sell both certified organic (from a farm called Dutch Meadow) for $4.59/h.g. and non certified organic (from a farm called Swiss Villa) for $3.99/h.g. Swiss Villa is named on that list from the real milk link someone posted yet the Dutch Meadow is not and thats the certified one!

But anyway, I am feeling pretty good about it and I am going to read some more stuff and tell dh all week. Then hopefully get some on Fri when it comes into the store...the guy said it goes fast - 150 bottles sell in less than a week usually! I am shocked. Especially since this area overall is not so crunchy (_overwhelmingly_ mainstream IMO) except for maybe two towns within 20 min. or so of the store. Thats probably where sales are coming from I guess.


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

Sometimes it skeeves me out. I know it shouldn't or if it does I should stop drinking milk all together but occasionally I get the heebies from drinking raw milk. I know its conditioning. It does taste rather yummy!

Okay, so maybe its not a risk that we all might have to contend with but it did come up every now and then for me.


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## tabitha (Sep 10, 2002)

i actually would prefer raw milk from a small herd, or a single cow, than from a large raw milk dairy in a state where it is common. a family cow is a lot less likely to come in contact with new animals or contract new disease. a family is a lot less likely to cut corners as well.


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## 425lisamarie (Mar 4, 2005)

I had ecoli and a kidney infection not long ago, from raw milk. FUnny because a few weeks later I recieved an email stating all batches from a certain period of time should have been pulled by stores selling.

Needless to say I do not patronize this health food store any longer, since they had my contact information and were supposed to notify me.

Fortunately I was the only one to drink this entire half gallon.

But, I still drink it. This was one incident, and the dairy handled it properly, it was the stinkin store that really messed up and didn't do their job!


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BusyBeeMom* 
My grandmother contracted tuberculosis from raw milk. It settled in her kidneys (rather than her lungs, unusual but not unheard of) and she had to have a kidney removed. She did survive this though.

Is it 100% certain she contracted TB from the milk, and not from another source? Is it possible she was exposed some other way AND drank raw milk, and everybody just assumed the two were connected?


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

I really want to find milk that is organic and from humanely-raised cows, but no other factors are especially important to me. Does anyone have any suggestions? If it were local to Ohio, or at least local-ish, that would be a plus.


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## texaspeach (Jun 19, 2005)

in my microbiology class we learned that milk can harbor mycobacterium tuberculosis, e.coli., s.aureus (staph), and campylobacter (causes diarrhea) among others.

a good dairy will be testing the milk for contamination though, so I would think your risk would be minimal.


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## redclover (Mar 5, 2008)

my naturopath keeps telling me the advantages of raw milk- and my daughter and partner can drink it- but something about it is undigestable to me- not sure what this has to do with but wonder if others have the same issue and what it might have to do with. we've tried several dairies and have had the same problem. do others have the same issue?


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## catnip (Mar 25, 2002)

Raw milk is also INCREDIBLY expensive... at least double the cost of organic pasturized but unhomogenized milk. And it is in limited supply. My food co-op has a policy that limits daily purchase quantities per customer for the raw milk to give everyone a fair shot at some.

I've only had raw milk a couple of times, when I was a kid visiting my cousin's cattle ranch. I swore to my parents that it tasted better, but given a blind taste test between chilled fresh partially skimmed raw milk (they used some of the seperated cream for butter and in coffee) and Lady Lee commercial mass produced 2% factory farm milk, I could not tell the difference.


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## zoeyzoo (Jul 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *emilet* 
I think listeria infection can be a concern - particularly for pregnant women or children.

Listeria illness has been reported by the CDC for cases of pasturized milk too.


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## pampered_mom (Mar 27, 2006)

Our entire family drinks raw milk - when we first started drinking it ds was 2 1/2 yrs old. I also drank it throughout my entire pregnancy with dd and continue to drink it.

For me it all comes down to what Quaniliaz pointed out - you've got to know your source. Raw milk is not for sale in stores in my state so we get ours directly from the farmer at their farm.

That being said, there is no one "safe" food, but I'd much rather drink raw milk from a farmer that I know than buy pasturized milk from a grocery store (organic or not) that went through who knows how many hands before it got to me.


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## BusyBeeMom (May 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
Is it 100% certain she contracted TB from the milk, and not from another source? Is it possible she was exposed some other way AND drank raw milk, and everybody just assumed the two were connected?

Well, she passed away 19 ago (wow, that made me sad to think of, I can't believe it's been that long since I saw her), so I can't check with her...It's possible, but that was the consensus then. I don't know how it was determined - whether a number of people drinking that batch of milk were infected or what...


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## RolliePollie (May 10, 2006)

I'd rather take risks drinking raw milk than drinking hormone and antibiotic filled milk from the super market.


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## 425lisamarie (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RolliePollie* 
I'd rather take risks drinking raw milk than drinking hormone and antibiotic filled milk from the super market.

Not all milk is from cows given antibiotics. Organic has standards which require cows to be free from.

I usually buy vat pasturized milk from a local dairy because I cannot get raw milk from the dairies I feel confident in buying from at the present time.


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## catnip (Mar 25, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *425lisamarie* 
Not all milk is from cows given antibiotics. Organic has standards which require cows to be free from.

I usually buy vat pasturized milk from a local dairy because I cannot get raw milk from the dairies I feel confident in buying from at the present time.

^Yeah that. Or, you could not drink milk at all. It isn't an either/or.


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## kateena (Jun 14, 2007)

I think the rules on antibiotics are pretty strict- I believe farmers are not allowed to sell milk from a cow on antibiotics, regardless of whether its organic or not.


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## Jennifer Z (Sep 15, 2002)

Some people are incredibly allergic to raw milk. My dad can sort of drink regular pasturized milk, although he has noticed that if milk is cooked in things, he doesn't have a problem with it. Cheese is ok too. However, as a boy growing up on the farm, he one time fell into a bucket of raw milk and had a horrible reaction to it. His older brother saved his life by carrying him to the water trough to wash the milk off of him. Drinking raw milk would probably kill him, even with the modern allergy medicines he is on.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kateena* 
I think the rules on antibiotics are pretty strict- I believe farmers are not allowed to sell milk from a cow on antibiotics, regardless of whether its organic or not.

That's true. The tanks are tested for antibiotics and the milk thrown out if positive. The dairy keeps the sick cows in a "hospital" until the antibiotics would be out of the milk. I don't really know about the tests themselves -- what level is defined as "trace" and whether trace amounts matter for us.

On vat pasteurization -- I've seen that mentioned on the forums a couple of times lately. Is that seen as a benefit? Milk is actually heated longer with this technique. The newer technology is putting the milk through a tube to heat it quickly and then another to cool it down again quickly.


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## TwilightJoy (May 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gale Force* 
On vat pasteurization -- I've seen that mentioned on the forums a couple of times lately. Is that seen as a benefit? Milk is actually heated longer with this technique. The newer technology is putting the milk through a tube to heat it quickly and then another to cool it down again quickly.

The three local dairies I've boughten from all vat pasteurize. It's worse than actual pasteurization? That's too bad. I'll still buy it though because it's grassfed and not homogenized and I think that's important.

I love me my raw milk though. In fact, I'm drinking a glass right now.


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## savithny (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gale Force* 
On vat pasteurization -- I've seen that mentioned on the forums a couple of times lately. Is that seen as a benefit? Milk is actually heated longer with this technique. The newer technology is putting the milk through a tube to heat it quickly and then another to cool it down again quickly.

The quick pasteurization is the ultra-high temp stuff, which take sit to much higher temps.

The deal with pasteurization is that you can either heat it to just above a certain temp (140, I think) for a longer time, or you can scorch it up to a really high temp for a really short time.

It's my understanding that the longer, gentler, lower pasteurization is better for preserving taste and not breaking up every single enzyme in the milk. The quick method cooks the bejeezus out of the milk and it tastes VERY different.


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## Gale Force (Jun 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *savithny* 
The quick pasteurization is the ultra-high temp stuff, which take sit to much higher temps.

UHT pasteurization and regular pasteurization can both be done through the technology I described and is what is commonly done in industry. UHT is higher temperature and a bit faster, but both are measured in seconds. Maybe someone will post the seconds.


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