# Does anyone else have insuffient glandular tissue?



## Corriander

I have just been told that I have this congenital condition. I think that I always knew that my breasts weren't quite "normal". But after attempting to breastfeed 2 children and the birth of a third I finally had a lactation consultant tell me this. She showed me photos in a lactation text book that looked just like my breasts: one smaller than the other, widely spaced apart, tubular shape.

Needless to say, it was devestating to hear that I might never have a full supply.

So I am trying to do the best I can with what I have and I wanted to see if anyone else had been able to bf their children with this condition. Without supplements my son (now 3 weeks old) was under his birthweight and not gaining. I started supplementing with an sns last night and he has already gained 6 oz.

I have started taking domperidome. Does anyone else have experience with this?

I need to rent a pump also.

I was already taking herbs and drinking mothers milk tea.

I guess what I am really looking for is someone with this condition to tell me that any or all of these things I am doing may actually make a difference. I know that this condition varies in severity and I don't think that I have the worst case - I have been able to produce some milk, just not enough to avoid supplementing.

looking forward to hearing from you!


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## shelbean91

I don't have that issue- but I know someone who does. She was diagnosed when her dd was about 2 mos- and used donated milk and formula in the sns to supplement. She was never able to get a full supply, but once she started solids- her dependance on the supplemental milk went down. Last I talked to her (about 6-8 mos ago), her dd was 3 1/2 and still nursing. She is a student LC and was/is studying to be a midwife. I'm sure she did all the herbs and supplements as she was working in a breastfeeding supply store that is owned/run by and IBCLC.

I think she said she had about 1/2 to 2/3 of the supply that her dd needed.

I only see her occasionally- we're not really friends, but she ran the mommy and me support group I attended for quite some time.

Anything you can do will make a difference- any breastmilk is better than none.

Edited to say- keep up the good work- you're doing a great job.


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## Corriander

Thanks for your encouragement shelbean! The few people that I know of who have dealt with this all seem to be the ones who are the most dedicated to bf. I'm trying to keep that attitude.

I did bf my first son for 16 months. Once he started solids it was easier to drop some of the supplements.

I just had my last baby so I was really hoping to "get it right" this time. I'm still in the process of changing my definition of perfection.

Thanks again.


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## Quirky

I don't have insufficient glandular tissue but I did have low supply issues and domperidone really made a big difference for me. I know it doesn't for all women but I think it does make a noticeable difference for many. If you run a search for domperidone or Motilium on this board you will probably find a fair number of threads discussing it.

For a pump I hope you will get a hospital grade professional pump. When I had to pump when ds was born, I tried my Medela Pump in Style I had gotten for going back to work and it just wasn't strong enough. The hospital grade pump made a big difference. Once my supply was established I was able to return it; I don't know if your condition would make things different.

As far as herbs, what are you taking? Fenugreek and blessed thistle, 3-4 caps each 3 times a day, is a good combination. You might try (instead of the pills) a tincture from Motherlove Herbals called More Milk Plus as well as one called Goat's Rue (www.motherlove.com).

Inositol, which is a B vitamin (that is not found in regular multivitamins) is important for a healthy milk supply; it's found in oatmeal and other whole grains, which is why oatmeal is often recommended for nursing mothers. You can get it in supplement form online at places like www.bronsonvitamins.com (item 166) or other vitamin sellers.

Kudos to you for sticking with it and nursing your baby! :bf


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## Konur's Mom

A very good friend of mine has exactly that. She nursed her dd with the help of suppliments of EBM from a friend who had an over supply. She tried everything, and was unable to get her supply up. From what she told me, there is nothing that can work for her, its a genetic condition that cannot be fixed. The only thing she didnt try, that she would now if she got pg again was Goats Rue. It actually increases breast tissue. Here is a link to a tincture that has it in it.

http://www.emersonecologics.com/Prod...BrowseBy=MOTH8

She did nurse her dd until she self weaned at 4 years old. She only supplimented with her friends milk for the first year.


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## bradleybrat

I believe I also have insufficient glandular tissue. I have a six month old son, Stephen (my first baby). We have been breastfeeding and supplementing with formula using an SNS since he was three and half weeks old (at that time he was also still below his birthweight and not gaining). I have been taking domperidone (20 mg, four times/day) since he was eight weeks old. The domperidone seemed to possibly help my supply a little, so I have kept taking it.

Your description of your breasts sounds like mine. I have never seen a picture of what breasts with insufficient glandular tissue look like, but I would love to see one to confirm. I came to my diagnosis through process of elimination.

Here are the other things I tried that did NOT seem to help my supply at all:
--herbs (fenugreek and blessed thistle)
--double-pumping after feedings with a hospital-grade electric breast pump (Medela Lactina)
--feeding frequently (which we had already done since birth - he was born at home and we were never separated)
--suck training (he always seemed to have a good latch and an effective suck anyway)

Some things that DID help me were:
--the book "Defining Your Own Success" by Diana West http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books
It was written for mothers who have had breast reduction surgery, but much of it was relevant and helpful to me.
--breast compression http://www.bflrc.com/newman/breastfeeding/compres2.htm
(This is a Jack Newman handout. He is a pediatrician who has a breastfeeding clinic in Canada, and is a GREAT resource.)
--NOT supplementing at every feeding. I find it very helpful psychologically to have at least a couple of breastfeeding times each day without the SNS. Usually this is first thing in the morning (when a mother's supply is usually highest), or "in-between" supplemented feedings in the afternoon and evening. I have always had an abundant enough supply to keep Stephen content overnight - and he nurses A LOT overnight.
--good support from my LLL leader

In retrospect, the one choice I regret was being somewhat miserly with the amounts of formula supplementation early on. I was VERY much in denial that I couldn't have a full milk supply, and was VERY afraid that supplementing would decrease my supply. But, as long as you are supplementing using an at-breast supplementer (such as the SNS or Lact-Aid), the formula your baby takes isn't going to negatively impact your milk supply, but it might make your son get bigger and stronger faster so that he can suck well and get every drop of breast milk that is available.

I have a couple questions for you:
1) Did you notice any improvement in your milk supply from your 1st to your 3rd baby?
2) Do you know where I could find a picture of breasts with insufficient glandular tissue, or any more information? Any online?

Finally, I can say that Stephen and I have a beautiful breastfeeding relationship. He turned six months old yesterday, weights almost 15 pounds, and is healthy (only one minor cold and no other illnesses) and is developing well in every way. Even though we supplement with 20 ounces of formula per day now, he also still "looks" like a breastfed baby.

Good luck to you! Please feel free to email me with any other questions.
Robin


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## Konur's Mom

Here is a picture, towards the bottom of this page on the left. This is exactly what my friend's breasts look like.

http://www.007b.com/breast_size_breastfeeding.php


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## Quirky

link to picture of hypoplastic breasts

if your breasts don't fit this description, is it possible you have PCOS? polycystic ovarian syndrome. i've seen some links on that site and others about PCOS being linked to insufficient supply.

Keep up the good nursing work, mamas! :bf


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## Quirky

eta: posted at the same time as konur's mom, and the same pic too!


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## Konur's Mom

:LOL :LOL Quirky! Great minds!


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## Corriander

bradleybrat,

I have seen a difference in supply from the 1st to the 3rd baby, but I think that is due more to my own experience in knowing how to encourage more milk than in my body's ability to make more. What I mean is I didn't find out about breast compression until my second was several months old. With this third baby I did compression from day 1 and I think that has made the most difference.

All my babies have had good latches, so that's not an issue. I take fenugreek but can't tell if its really had an effect - but afraid to stop just in case.

I haven't seen a difference yet from the dom (only been 3 days), but I have read it can take as long as 6 weeks. You can also increase the dose to as much as 12 pills a day.

With my first I only bf for 6 months because I felt like such a failure that it didn't seem worth it. I also didn't know about sns until she had already had several bottles and found she loved them.

With my second I used the sns and was able to drop some of the supplements when he started solids. He nursed for 16 months.

This 3rd baby is my last so I really put alot of pressure on myself. I think that book you mention would do me alot of good. I need to let go of the idea that ebf is the only form of success. My husband even suggested, very lovingly, that maybe I should see a therapist to help work all this out in my head.


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## bradleybrat

Thanks for responding to my questions! It sounds like you are a great mommy and have given your children all the benefits you possibly could in a very difficult situation.

We are just starting solids now, and I am very anxious to see when we can start dropping some supplemented feedings, and how well/how long Stephen will nurse without the SNS. And of course I'm very anxious to see how things will go with my next baby.

Robin


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## Corriander

I am on day 6 of the domperidone and I think I'm starting to see some effect. I feel fuller before a feeding, hear more swallowing on the left side (the smallest side that seemed to have little more than drops before), and we got throught the night without having to supplement t 2 nights in a row.

I haven't started pumping because it seems like such a hassle. I want to see what the dom does first and save the pumping for a few weeks from now if I still need it.

bradleybrat, I remember that it really got easier with my son once he started solids, so I hope that is what happens with you too. He really liked nursing so that made it easy to continue. By the time he was one the nursings were like snacks, but that made it more special because it was like an extra thing that he really wanted. Coming home from work in the afternoon and spending about 30 minutes nursing was our favorite time of day and the last nursing session to go when he eventually self weaned.


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## bradleybrat

Thanks, Corey!

I'm so glad the domperidone seems to be working for you.

I think you have made a smart decision to wait on the pumping. I kept a rented pump and paid for it for two months, but I hated using it, so I never used it regularly after the first week or so. In the early months, Stephen wanted to nurse constantly, so if I wanted to pump, I had to lay him down and watch him fuss while I pumped. Insane! I also never got more than an ounce at a time, and usually much less.

Robin


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## scubamom

hi
well im glad i read this thread as im currently going through same thing.
my d/s is less than 3 weeks old, and we found out about my low milk supply in hospital after significant weight loss and jaundice and we have been using sns ever since, and also taking domperidone for 10 days, my supply has increased a little,( i think maybe he gets half an ounce each feed!!!!)
i also feel so down about whole thing. hes my first and i was determined to breastfeed, i thought sore nipples or bad latch would be problems never thought about not being able to make milk!!!!
Im just about hanging in there but i think even my lactation consultant is giving up on me esp after our last weigh in with her when d/s hadnt put on any weight, so she told me i had to up amount of formula in sns. i did but only a little and after weigh in with public health nurse (she much more positive) he put on 6 ounces in 3 days. I dont think i will ever have enough to not have to supplement but threads like this help me try to keep being positive and make me realise im not alone.

Has anyone else been through all this and ended up with a full supply???


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## Corriander

Hi scubamom,

I'm trying not to think of a full supply as my goal. I've taken domperidone for 2 full weeks and have seen the supplement amount per day go from 14 oz to 9 oz to our current 6 oz with a constant increase in weight. I've just increased the dom dosage to 12 pills a day to see if that can push us over the top.

I find it very encouraging to think about how much formula or breastmilk he needs to grow at this weight and therefore how much bm I must be producing even though I can't see it.

If you don't know how to do this:

baby's current weight in pounds times 2.7 equals the number of ounces the baby needs to receive each day to grow the recommended 4-8 oz a week. In my case, my son is now 9 lbs and 15 oz and has gained 6 oz a week for 2 weeks. So he must be receiving about 26 oz a day - 20 of which is from me! Also remember that even if the amount you are supplementing does not go down from day to day, your baby is still receiving more breastmilk over time because he is growing and needs more overall.

I think it is very important to surround yourself with support. If your lacation consultant is negative, then by all means don't go back to her!

I hope that everyone here can check in a leave updates periodically, because I also find this thread very encouraging.

Corey


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## Pearmama

Hi, everyone. I am new here. I was just looking for info on hypoplastic breasts since I've had the sneaking suspicion that this might be my problem. My fifth child (a girl) was just born six days ago and I was really hoping that I wouldn't encounter all the problems that I had breastfeeding in the past. I've been waiting for my breasts to even out ever since puberty. I've always considered them strange looking...widely-spaced apart, kinda long, without the fullness under the nipple, and my areolas are huge. But my hubby (bless his heart) hasn't complained.

Everyone's story might as well be my own. I've done it all: unrestricted nursing, electric breast pump, SNS, fenugreek, herbal supplements, tinctures, etc. The only thing I haven't tried is getting that prescription from my doc.

My baby seems to be doing fine although she was a little jaundiced. She seems content and I can hear her swallowing during a feeding. No, my breasts aren't huge with milk but they are definitely heavier and they tingle all over! However, we hit a brick wall about the fourth day postpartum. She hadn't pooped at all, since the second day when she passed two meconium diapers. I was dreading this, but I was also prepared. I gave her an ounce of formula in the SNS (left over from my last baby) and she pooped twice.

Now I am in the "what should I do now?" vortex? Should I try to build up a supply again? Should I just use the SNS so the baby doesn't fall so far behind in her weight gain? Should I just forget about the frustration with the SNS and give her supplements in the bottle? I don't know! Sometimes this is just too much to cope with! I just want what is best for my daughter. With my second and third child, I went to great lengths to maintain the BF relationship, and I felt horribly inadequate when I had to give them a bottle of formula. I don't feel that way now because I now I am doing all that I can. Or am I?

I went to the other site and saw the pics. My breasts don't look like the bulbous ones at the bottom of the page, but they do look like a pic from the group that said they were able to fully breastfeed. This is horribly confusing. About three years ago I tried to look for research about this problem...couldn't find anything. Now all this...

But it is definitely encouraging to hear from everyone who is determined to breastfeed. It gives me that little push to keep going and make this work...even if its not 100% ideal. The longest my boys BF'd for was 18 mos. I think thats pretty good, don't you?


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## Corriander

Hi Pearmama,

I think that 18 months is great! I bf my second for 16 months and hope the third will go for at least that long.

I would urge you to use the sns as long as you can stand it. I would also encourage you to try domperidone. You can get it over the internet without a perscription or a compounding pharmacy will make it for you. I have to go pick up the kids from school - will write more later.


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## Pearmama

Thanks for the encouragement, Corey.

I have to admit, I really dread using the SNS. It's such a hassle to get the tube on correctly (so the baby won't gag), then you have to make sure they still latch on properly...then you have to take care that your newborn's flailing arms won't pull on the tube...and finally, you can be sitting there all *hooked up* and come to realize that the tube isn't positioned right and the milk hasn't even flowed out (this is one reason why I like to use the formula slightly cool--that way I can feel it on my nipple and know the baby is sucking it down). Then...the feeling of failure while you are sitting there feeding your baby with a tube taped to your nipple.









Since I have used the SNS with my last three babies as well, I know that I will only use it for so long...usually the first couple of months and not for every feeding. For me, it's to condition the baby to want the breast, not the free-flowing bottle nipple (this is one reason why I use a newborn nipple even when the baby is a few months old). When I am lazy, I do use a bottle.

I had a heck of a time with the SNS with my last baby because he had a finger sucking habit that he seemed to develop in the womb. He literally started sucking the same two fingers when he was a day old. This really interfered with his BFing. His latch was lousy and at night he would prefer to suck on his fingers rather than the breast. He only breastfed for five months, much to my sadness. This is why I am really praying that things will be different with my daughter. She has a good latch and has been nursing strongly since her birth (seven whole days ago!









Another issue I have is the fact that I hate formula. When you have prescribed yourself to the whole natural/attachment parenting/compleat mother/la leche league philosophy, you come to a point when you realize that formula is BAD. But what other alternatives are there? With my last son, I supplemented with goats milk. But I can't get any right now so formula will have to do.

I guess I have the same question that you have, Corey. Has anyone successfully (fully) breastfed their baby having these extreme supply issues that we all seem to have?

I have gotten to the point in my head where I am just thankful that I am able to give birth to healthy babies...if I have to seek out an alternative in the way I feed them, then so be it. How many women would be grateful just to have a baby, period? And here I am, fretting over how much milk I have/don't have?!

But, ya know, sometimes I wish I just didn't care so much!


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## Corriander

I only bf by first child for 6 months for several reasons:

1. I didn't learn about the sns until she had already had several weeks of bottles

2. she loved those bottles

3. and I didn't think it was acceptable to bf only part time.

I am still struggling with the third one. All of the literature as well as discussion boards and support groups are all about doing formula OR breastfeeding. But when you can't breastfeed exclusively and have to use formula parttime, then which group do you fall into. I consider myself a breastfeeder, but I find that I always have to explain myself in the company of breastfeeders and then I feel like a fraud.

As far as the sns goes. I have tried to use it long enough to get my supply (such as it is) established. I am going back to work part time next month when ds is 3 1/2 months. He will get a bottle in the morning and I won't have a chance to pump, so this will force us into a schedule of bottle/breast that I hope we can continue indefinately. A few months after that he will be eating some solids which will encourage more of a schedule of feedings. I find that it is easier to have a schedule when combining bottle and breast.

Right now I never really know when he is going to need formula, I just try to bf as much as I can and it is really exhausting. I really envy mom's who can feed their babies and then be confident that the baby will be satisfied for several hours.

another thought: When visiting the LC in the hospital another woman came in to use the pump because her child is in the NICU. No matter how I am able to feed my child I am very grateful that they were all born healthy and remain that way.


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## Pearmama

I have a group of friends who all have little ones. I'm talking about ladies who tandem nurse two, sometimes three of their children. So they have plenty of milk to go around! I used to find myself feeding my sons their bottle BEFORE I went to hang out with them because I felt stupid bringing out a little can of formula. They also couldn't understand why it was necessary that I do both. And my boys were really scrawny compared to their huge, fat babies. Its the same in the nursing mothers room at church...I usually make sure I've fed the baby a bottle before I go in there.

Sad, but some people get so militant about their breastfeeding stance. I know it is best and the way God intended, but I know now, from experience, to show some grace to those who don't or can't, out of ignorance or what have you.

I even contemplated not having any more children after my third because it hurt me so much that we couldn't have a normal BF relationship. But then I wouldn't of had my youngest son or my long-awaited daughter!

Kudos to you, Corey, for doing what you can to BF your son. That is what true parenting is all about: self sacrifice for our children because of the great love we have for them. And you know, this infancy stage is sooo short!


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## scubamom

i love reading this thread, as helps so much when realise that im not alone.

an update on how im doing since last posted is:
well its been 6 weeks now, were still using sns and breastfeeding, if u can call it that as sure hes only getting a dribble but a dribble is better than nothing right!!!!
been on the domperidone for 4.5 weeks now and i think ive plateaued and that it hasnt really worked for me, as still got only approx 1 oz per feeding (sometimes if that), just hasnt seemed to increase as id hoped. Also had to up the amount of formula im giving him this week. Hated to do it but he was still hungry all the time, made me think about quitting again, but just wanted to say thanks as this thread has kept me going.
please keep posting updates

heather


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## Corriander

Heather, just wanted to remind you that just because you have to give your baby more formula, it doesn't mean that you are producing less, it means that your baby is growing and he needs more than he did last week.

I needed to remind myself of that last week. we've gone from 6 oz. of formula back up to 9 and I was certain that it was because of me. I had to remember it is just because he has gone through a growth spurt.

I love this thread too. It means much more to me to read the experiences and encouragements from moms who have "been there" then from those who really don't know. Once I actually had a mom suggest that I might have an overactive let down - uh no that's not the problem!

What do your moms think about starting solids early? I have given my ds some mashed bananas, he really likes them and there has been no tummy upset or poop problems. Do you think it is worth doing if it replaces some formula? Still, he is only 2 months old.

Thanks


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## Pearmama

At this point, I wonder about introducing solids early as being the lesser of two evils...the other evil being formula.







I've mentioned offering goat's milk before and I've also learned that almond milk is good (I would think homemade is best), as well as rice milk. I've even heard of giving infants fresh carrot juice and the milk of a young coconut. I don't want to believe that formula is our only option. As for solid food that I think would be very beneficial, how does mashed avocado sound? Or pureed mango? Bananas are great. I'm not a big fan of jarred, commercial baby foods, although I did give my second son rice cereal in his bottle so I could fatten him up when he was four months old. I wouldn't do it again.

I think as long as you feed your baby food that is in the most natural state as possible. I really don't think introducing solids is that harmful, although I would be a little leary offering it before the four month mark.

I have a quick question for all...my daughter doesn't seem to like the bottle (yay). I've tried to give it to her a couple of times when I haven't been up to using the SNS. She takes FOREVER to drink an ounce. I haven't gotten her weighed yet (I go in on monday), but it feels like I am feeding her constantly throughout the day and she seems satisfied. However, she doesn't poop regularly. I know some babies go a few days without stooling, but with my history of low milk supply and underfeeding, this is really freaking me out. She pooped twice on Monday but she hasn't done any since. She has peed alot though. And her stools haven't turned yellow yet (the last poop was a yellow-brown). She looks like she is getting enough, but in my heart I feel she isn't because of those darn poopy diapers! I know this may seem icky, but what does your baby's soiled diaper look like? How often do they stool? How much formula are you giving them in a day? Right now we are averaging maybe 4 oz. a day and she is 10 days old.


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## Llamamama

Hey there:

I just looked at this thread and read it with great interest. My son is about to turn a year old and I had similar problems with low breast milk supply. Essentially one breast was able to produce very well (up to 6 oz when engorged) and the other would never produce more than one. The breast that did the producing is larger than the other and now that I have stopped breastfeeding has made the moderate breast assymetry even larger (alas). I would be intersted to hear if anyone on this list had one breast that did produce and one that did not and if there is a size diff. But anyway, to continue--

We nursed until he was 8 months old and I would say he recived 65% mother's milk and 35% formula. We had a lot of complications in the beginning because he was in the NICU for eight days and I had to pump right at the beginning. And then he fell asleep at the breast, and then I couldn't get the hang of the SNS, and then we moved to another state (planned but bad timing), and finally I settled on supplementing with a bottle. And it was all so hard because I so badly wanted to bond with him since he was in the NICU for 8 days without me and on morphine with a tube down his throat. It still makes me cry. Not what I had planned at all!

But, I guess the reason I wanted to write is because I learned a few things on this hard road. And one big one is that sometimes life doesn't go as we plan and I think I personally got so HUNG UP on the breastfeeding issue that I was glad when my mother told me to take a step back and be THANKFUL that my child was alive and that I needed to make the most of our breastfeeding experience so that we enjoyed it. I tried the SNS again but I found it so cumbersome and it made the experience unenjoyable for me. My son always enjoyed the breast. He had no nipple confusion (we used Avent) and I essentially used the bottle as a "second breast". I would let him fill up on the one that prodcued and if he was still hungry we went to the bottle. I tried to pump the little breast but eventually I just gave up and became VERY lopsided. The pumping was too annoying.

So I guess I want to also say that I felt very uncomfortable around breastfeeding moms and I did and do continue to feel judged by them. It has given me more understanding of other people and differences because I think if I didn't have this situation I would be judgemental too. I did in the end decide to bring out the bottle with the breast fed moms because I wasn't going to let my baby be hungry because I felt bad.

I already worry about what it will be like with the next baby but I also now know a lot more. Breast compression is useful. I found herbs didn't help.

Maybe I will try that medicine people are mentioning. Or maybe not. Maybe I will just do the best I can with what I have and be happy with the special relationship I can create with my baby. I urge you all to look inside and recognize how wonderful and special your relationship with your child (children) is. It does not depend on breastfeeding. It depends on you and the love and trust you show your child.

Go easy on yourselves mamas, life is hard enough, and we are all trying. Don't focus on what you can not give your babies when you all give them so much. We wouldn't want to raise children who only focus on what they can not do and ignore the fine fine things they can do, would we? Shouldn't we embldy that lesson ourselves if we want to pass it along? Sometimes we are handed adversity because it has something to teach us. I learned about compassion, understanding, and focusing on the good. Give yourselves a pat on the back for working hard on something that is hard to do, explain, except, and be satisfied with.

xoxox

Llamamama


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## Corriander

Thank you so much for your comments llamamama. It means so much more coming from someone who has been there. I am struggling with this every day. I am depressed when ds needs a lot of formula, I am elated when he needs less.

I just returned from a visit with relatives and decided to start using a bottle because I knew that I would not be able to use an sns around people who I love but don't see but once a year. I worried constantly about what people were thinking - "why is she giving him a bottle if she just nursed him?" But I'm sure that no one gave it a second thought. They just kept saying how beautiful he is.

This is one of those days that I feel like totally giving up, so I have to remind myself that weaning him will not make him sleep through the night, will not stop his gas, will not keep him from screaming in the car seat, will not keep me from feeling like a failure. It will not solve anything and may cause more problems.


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## Llamamama

Corey:

You only have this time with him once. Relax and enjoy it. Don't beat yourself up. I found the SNS to be a HUGE pain. Enjoy your relatives, enjoy your son, and enjoy your breastfeeding experience even if it includes huge formula additions from a bottle.

I may be beaten up on this list for saying this, but you need to create a comfortable, settled, positive environment for him. If the breastfeeding/lack of milk is making you so so upset that you can not bond with him then I would say preserving the bond (and creating a calming environment) is more important than forcing the breastfeeding if you are feeling so distraught. You have made it 2.5 months already. I would not start solids before four months. It makes me so sad to see you so torn apart by this because I understand it so well. Like I said, the breast is great, but bonding is so much more than how a child is fed.

You are doing great. Like I said in my last post, sometimes we are given challenges because they teach us something we need to learn. Look inside yourself, be calm, and all your answers will become clear. There is no "right" way to be a mother. What others can do we can not always do and that's OK.

Llamamama


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## bradleybrat

I also enjoy reading this thread! Thanks to all of you who are posting.

Here's an update on Stephen and me. The experience of starting solids was not exactly what I imagined -- but then nothing about my mothering experience has been! I had expected that as soon as we started solids he would start taking less formula, but he didn't. We started solids at five and a half months, when he was taking 20 oz. of formula/day, and it took a few weeks before he was really interested in eating more than mashed banana once a day. Around seven and a half months he got a lot more interested in eating food (and in trying to feed himself!) and I started feeding him three meals a day, but it was a couple of weeks AFTER that, at EIGHT months, before he started taking any less formula. I don't know if that is typical or if it had to do with his slow growth due to insufficient calories early on. He is eight and a half months now and we are still nursing using the SNS five times a day, about 14-16 oz./day. I am very curious about details of how others worked out decreasing supplemented feedings as they increased solids. I would like to decrease the number of supplemented feedings (we nurse a few other times each day and all night without supplementing), but I'm afraid to stop offering formula at a feeding unless he just refuses to drink ANY -- but will that ever happen? He is very healthy and I think growing well now (I finally returned my rental scale when he was seven and a half months old and over 17 lbs.).

A few comments to the above posts:
AMOUNT OF FORMULA -- The one regret I have about this experience is that we didn't supplement with MORE formula, earlier on. I was convinced that would decrease my milk supply, and I definitely felt GREAT when Stephen took less formula and AWFUL when he took more. But finally around three months (when he STILL wasn't gaining weight really well), we upped the formula significantly (from 8 oz./day to about 12 oz./day) and we kept increasing by about an ounce each week until he started solids at five and a half months. He gained about two pounds/month during that time period, and I accepted that my supply was probably fixed at its maximum and he needed more formula as he got bigger.

EARLY SOLIDS -- I considered this, mostly because Jack Newman recommends starting solids, but we tried at four months and Stephen clearly wasn't ready. After all my research I have come to believe that formula is the most complete food we can offer our babies (after our own milk or donated breast milk). It is hard to imagine such a little baby eating a very balanced diet of solid food, and they would surely miss out on some of the concentrated calories, protein, vitamins, minerals, etc. that they need.

STOOLS -- Pearmama: I would be very concerned about a 10-day-old baby having less than one stool per day. For a baby a few months or even weeks older, that might be normal, but I know that infrequent stools and lack of weight gain (which we unfortunately didn't realize until later) were the only signs that Stephen wasn't getting enough milk. He was alert, nursed often and for long periods of time, had lots of wet diapers, etc. Once we started formula the stool color was more green/brown than the normal breast-fed yellow, although I saw that sometimes.

Thanks again for the support of all of you wonderful mothers!

Robin


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## TreeLove




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## Llamamama

Treelove:

Why? Please share why you think you can't make enough milk. I am interested. Hurrah for you for knowing how to be so positive next time. This is all such a blessing! Again, focus on the things you can do!


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## TreeLove

i started a new thread-didn't want to high-jack this one.


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## Pearmama

My daughter is now 6 weeks old. She weighs 9 lbs. 11oz. This is great! My last three babies struggled with putting on weight for almost five months!!

I have given up on the SNS. I found that her latch was getting sloppy because I was so focused on trying to get that stupid tube in her mouth right. I found my nipples getting sore. So, I stopped. She drinks from an Avent bottle.

I have accepted the amount of milk that I can produce is not enough. When she nurses and I don't hear any swallowing for a while, I take her off and switch sides. When she is finished, she drinks her bottle of formula...between 2-3 ounces a feeding. Trying to get her to drink more is impossible. She takes forever to drink the amount I give her as it is! I say she drinks about 15-20 ounces a day. She nurses exclusively all night.

Her poops have greatly increased. You don't know how happy it makes me to see those yellow, cottage-cheesy poops!! Its ridiculous, but true. Her other poops look dark green and smell nasty. But to see those bf diapers make me feel good that she is indeed getting something from me.

I just read an article about women being deficient in Omega-3's having a hard time producing enough milk for their infants. Its becoming very common with women in the U.S eating a SAD. Soooo, this could explain how many women I'm reading having such a hard time producing milk. I'm going to the health food store this week and buying myself some flax seed oil. My daughter can drink a few drops too.

I'll let you know if this helps!


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## Corriander

My son Peter is now just over 3 months. He was 12 lbs. 11 oz. three weeks ago. So I'm sure he is well over 13 lbs. now. He had a real growth spurt about 6 weeks ago and went from taking 9 oz of formula a day to 16 oz.

I was using the starter SNS, the one that holds 3 oz. and was having to use it for every feeding. So I switched to the 6 oz SNS and now use it 3 times a day, bf only other times during the day and at night. I'm still taking domperidone.

From my experience of bfing three children I think that my body simply has an upper limit of what it can produce. This is depressing, but I have to remind myself that what I am producing is probably about 20 oz - nothing to sneeze at. Those cans of formula powder that I have a love/hate relationship with would be used up alot faster if I was not nursing. I also have the experience of bf my older son for 16 months, so I know that a long duration is possible even if quanitity is not.

So we're at the point where we can continue like this indefinately and I'm feeling better about it all the time. I read in the "Defining your own success" book that the amount of antibodies in a woman's breastmilk increases as the amount of breastmilk decreases. Meaning that I am still giving my son the full health benefits of nursing while only nursing parttime.

p.s. I also LOVE those yellow seedy poops!


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## 3under2

This is the support I've been looking for. Have 19 month old twins, but was only able to bf for 5 months and even then was supplementing each feed with a few ounces of formula. Have a newborn and tried to exclusively bf. Lactation consultant commented on how small breasts looked (not tubular just flat-chested) and asked if they expanded during pregancy. I commented that they did not seem fuller. The baby latched on right away and appeared to be getting colostrum so she said not too worry. Milk came in on day three. Unfortunately, baby lost weight and appeared slightly jaundiced. She lost too much weight at first and ped. said to supplement with formula as I had done with twins. Baby pooped at every feed. It was seedy. At 4 week checkup, the pediatrician commented on how she seemed to be getting most from the breast b/c of how great her poop looked and how frequently she went. Weight was back up past birth weight. I was so excited. But now at 6 weeks, my supply has dropped. I'm only getting one ounce each time I pump. Baby is only pooping once a day. Am trying fenugreek and thistle. I'm on day 2 but it doesn't seem to be helping. Any advice?


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## Corriander

Hi 3under2! I'm glad you found this thread.

I can only give advice based on my experience. If you are like me then it's not that your milk supply has dropped, it's that it hasn't kept up with your baby's increased needs. Don't look at the pump to determine how much you are making. Most babies need 2.5 ounces of milk per pound of body weight per day. If (for instance) your baby weighs 8 lbs then she will need 20 ounces of milk. If you are giving 10 ounces of formula then you are making 10 ounces.

I have found (after experiencing 3 children) that my body takes a long time to catch up to my child's needs and probably has a maximum amount that it will produce. Right now my 4 month old weighs 13 lbs, and takes about 18 ounces of formula so I am making at least 15 ounces. The amount of formula that he receives has not changed in at least a month so I know I must be making more than I was a month ago.

Some ideas: Be sure to use some kind of at-breast supplementer. Read the book "Defining your own success" by Diana West, it's about women who have had breast reductions, but it absolutely applies to us. Just keep at it. My second child probably only took 2-3 feedings a day from the breast but we just kept going and he breastfed until 15 months old. My current baby is doing even better than that. You may want to try Domperidone. I have been taking 120 mg. a day since 4 weeks old and I think it has made a difference.

Good luck and keep in touch.


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## Corriander

My ds was just weighed today and he is 14.5 pounds! So I am producing even more breastmilk than I thought I was!


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## scubamom

thats great
i think i may be too, even though doesnt seem like it, but if that formula is true and works then i am producing 15 ounces. Doesnt seem possible!!! could my ds need less than the 2.5 ounces per pound?

even if not true for us, makes me feel good too think i may be producing 15!!!!!!









im just glad that i stuck it through,it was worth keeping at it even though upsetting at the time, and felt like would be easier to quit. But i now have a very healthy and well baby, whom i love feeding, i am now so comfortable with the sns that i find way easier than a bottle.
its thanks to everyones support here that i made it this far, and continue to every day.

the lady at the post office asked me today if i was breastfeeding, and i said i did but supplemented (my usual answer as feel guilty if dont add that use formula, like im not being truthful). anyhow she said that she could tell he was breastfed as looked so well and healthy and a contented baby!!! it made me feel great, its so all worth it.


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## 3under2

Thx. Corriander for the suggestions! Tried SNS, but it was rather cumbersome or should I say comical to try to use and chase after toddlers. Formula flying everywhere. The fenugreek, pumping, oatmeal, and/or water seem to be working. Seems like the supply is starting to go up. Thx for the 2.5 oz. per lb. formula. Now I'll really be able to check and monitor any progress.


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## Corriander

Hi,

Just wanted to post an update on us and keep this thread alive for anyone who needs it.

My ds is now 5 months old. We have almost completely given up the SNS. I'll use it about once a week. When I saw that he had no trouble going from bottle to breast it was easy to give up the cumberson SNS.

He has started solids and that seems to have decreased his need for formula without decreasing my supply. He will take between 12-18 oz. of formula a day, depending on how much solids he eats I guess. So I figure that I'm producing at least 25 oz. of breastmilk a day. Before solids he was taking as much as 20 oz. of formula.

I am still on domperidone, though I have dropped my dosage down to 80 mg from 120 mg.

I am happy to say that I have (finally, after 3 children) come to peace with my situation and accepted that I cannot exclusively breastfeed a child. Gone are the days of constantly researching for new herbs to try, fruitless pumping, measuring out meager amounts of formula and dispairing when I realize that he needs more and more. I can now relax and enjoy what I have: a happy breastfed child who LOVES the breast, needs it to relax and fall asleep, who needs some extra calories from formula but who is getting all the benefits of breastmilk from me.

I would like to read updates on everyone else who has responded to this thread in the past. It would be great to hear how everyone is doing.


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## SlingWearin'Mama

For the longest time I have been searching the net and other bfing support groups to find other moms with igt and almost everyones post on mdc told my story. I was determined to bf and was told my small breasts wouldn't slow me down.. I tried everything, fenugreek, brewers yeast, big bowls of oatmeal, mother's milk tea, super switch nursing, double pumping with a hg pump, sns, and finally reglan.. the only thing i didnt take was dom, planned on it with next kid but now with the crackdown on it who knows.. I am just glad to be able to talk to other moms who deal with the regret of not supping earlier and the embarassment of bottle feeding in public... Just think some ladies are worried about breastfeeding in public and we get more nervous about bottlefeeding







: it is always something isnt it?

for those moms who breastfed for an extended timeframe (12+ months) any hints? did you only use sns? or were you able to breast and bottle? and when or is there an age the breast and solids were enough? I think i produce around 18 oz if that helps...

Thanx and good luck to everyone!
Jenn


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## georgia

Have you ever checked out the book Nursing Mothers Herbal??? Fantastic resource I thought I'd pass along!!! Great info about increasing milk!!! All the best,


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## Steph1

I wish I would've found this forum 5 wks ago. I stopped BFing then (my son is 8 wks). 2nd baby, same story- no engorgement, pump 1/2 oz with good pump. At least this one didn't get dehydrated because we started supplementing in the hospital under LCs guidance. It was so frustrating and time-consuming pumping, nursing, bottlefeeding, and trying the SNS (not to speak of also mothering a 3 yr old) that I finally quit. I felt like I was spending more time with the equipment than with my baby. If I had read your posts I might've continued comfort nursing. I don't feel like a failure when I'm bottle-feeding, I feel like one when I'm nursing. I thought about relactating, but the effort involved seems impossible, plus I've started taking Lamisil tablets and I don't think they're compatible with BF. I know I'm a good mom: I wanted nothing more than to exclusively nurse my babies for extended time. I'm angry, feeling guilty, and betrayed by my body. Because I've been through this before I thought I was OK with all this. I'm feeling sad now. Any support, encouragement would be helpful. Thanks!
P.S. Unlike some other members, I hated the SNS- it was hard enough to get him to latch on correctly to me, much less with the tube in his mouth, then most of the time I wouldn't have it positioned right, so I had to squeeze it adn then it would leak all over me. After 20 minutes, he would only have drank half of what he needed to, so I would have to bottle feed the rest of it. The SNS sounds great in theory, but I thought "you try sucking through this tiny tube, and tell me how easy it is!"


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## Corriander

Hi Steph,

Yes, the SNS is difficult to use. It took me 3 kids to really get the hang of it. And I stopped using it regularly (for my most recent child) at 3 months when I realized that my ds can go breast to bottle without problem. I know what you mean about feeling like a failure when nursing - at least I used to feel that way. I quit nursing my first child at 6 months for all the reasons you described and it took therapy to really get over it.

CrunchyJen,

I breastfed my second child for 16 months, so yes it can be done with a partial supply. I think my supply is about the same as yours - maybe 20 oz. After 12 months I would nurse him 2-3 times times a day and it became apparent that as long as I kept it up he was very eager also, and we could have continued indefinately.

Have you read "Defining your own success"? It is written for moms breastfeeding after a breast reduction, but otherwise it completely applies to us. It describes how to bottlefeed without discouraging your own supply. Essentially always breastfeed first and then follow up with a bottle, not the other way around. I couldn't recommend this book more! It really changed my outlook. I still open it randomly and feel better after reading a page or two.

For me it took accepting that I could never fully breastfeed a child before I could finally move on with confidence. I even breastfeed and then bottle feed in public now. I used to think that people would think me strange for doing both.


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## Steph1

What's hard is that you're not totally understood or accepted by either the bfing crowd or the ffing crowd. My BFing friends were sympathetic and supportive because they saw how hard I worked at it, but they didn't completely understand it because they had "normal" BFing problems (engorgement, mastitis, baby nursing all the time, etc), but not problems with supply. And my FFing friends didn't really understand what all the fuss was about, why I was still trying after 2 1/2 mos (with my 1st ds), just give him a bottle and get over it. BFing friends can relate a little to the grieving, they relate it to weaning. But FFing friends were either so relieved to change from BFing to FFing, or never wanted to BF in the 1st place. So forums like this one is the only place where I can come and breathe a little sigh of relief that I'm not alone.

I was thinking more about why I quit at 3 wks. My 2nd ds sleeps well at night-he wakes up once to eat then goes to sleep. I was remembering those 1st couple weeks, nursing for 20 min (it would take that long for him to get my 1/2 oz I'm sure, let-down on the pump took 5-10 min) then bottlefeeding him for however long it took for him to eat 2-3 oz. The whole shebang took 45-60 min, then pumping! And this was every 2-3 hrs! No wonder I quit. And in my case I think the pump was more effective than the child. I believe that because of my low supply he developed an ineffective suck, rather than the other way around (my 1st ds did this too). And he kept falling asleep because there wasn't much milk. It just seemed to take a lot of energy for him.

Does it make anyone else mad to have friends who didn't choose to BF get a milk supply/engorgement? I would've given my right arm to experience that.

When I look at the pics of hypoplastic breasts on that website, mine don't look as extreme. I have fullness on the outsides of my breasts, but the insides lack fullness. And definitely asymmetrical, with the lrgr one producing more (although he preferred the smlr one). And they're not that small- about a C cup. I didn't experience much growth during pregnancy- I couldn't fit into my tighter bras, but I could still fit into the looser ones. Although this time I experienced more sensitivity, achiness, itching, etc. Is that a good sign for next time? AND- while I was nursing I actually had some lumpiness if I hadn't nursed or pumped for a while. I was excited about that!


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## Corriander

since I bottlefeed and breastfeed (usually one immediately after the other) I think that there are some folks who just don't know what to think about me. But no one has EVER commented or asked. It is a real blessing to finally have the confidence to not care what anyone thinks and just do what I need to to feed my baby, but I couldn't tell you exactly how it came about.

My ds just got over an injury to his mouth that he got from a fall. For a day and a half he would not bf or bottle feed. I got really engorged which felt sort of nice for about an hour - then it was really painful. Thank goodness I have a pump, but it was so irritating to pump. I could never do it to increase my supply for longer than a week. I don't think it was working and it just took too much time.

for me bf did get easier for each child. But I couldn't say if that is really because things improved for me physically or if the previous experience just made me know how to handle things better.


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## Steph1

Corey: How long do you BF, and then how long does it take your kiddo to FF after that?

DS is now 11 wks old, and I really regret quitting at 3 wks. I have found some info on relactating, but it sounds so difficult. And with the sml supply I had in the 1st place, I'm not sure if it would even work. I don't know if he would even latch on. Does anyone have experience w/this? Maybe its time to let it go.

Stephanie
Sean (3/5/01)
Matthew (4/21/04)


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## Corriander

Hi Steph,

I just got back from vacation so that's why I haven't responded. If I am reading your question right... my ds usually bfs for about 10 minutes before he has drained the breast and then I give a bottle. I try to bf before every bottle, but the last two weeks vacation kinda screwed with that.


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## lavendermama

Hello!
I have this same problem. I am pregnant with #4 and can't believe I am even pondering getting out the SNS again! Ah-what mothers will do. It is late and I need to get to sleep, but I truly look forward to coming here for support. That is so great you kept it up for 16 months! My hero! My last breastfed for about 5 months. They just seem to lose interest. I would love to keep it up this time for longer though. I had to laugh when you talked about people wondering when you give a bottle and breast. I have gotten those looks too-how funny.


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## Rainbowbird

"I consider myself a breastfeeder, but I find that I always have to explain myself in the company of breastfeeders and then I feel like a fraud."

I certainly feel that way sometimes! It is a shame that we not only feel like failures, we feel like oddities or frauds around those who successfully BF. It's like a competition or something.

My husband and I have thought about having a second child;, we haven't decided yet...sometimes I think about having another and then wonder am I going to fail again and have to use formula for my second child? Can my psyche stand another failure to BF?

Good luck to everyone who is still trying!


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## Rainbowbird

I also felt like I was spending more time with the equipment than my baby, and the BF was session after session of crying for both of us. Whereas with a bottle at least I could peacefully feed him and he would be satisfied and full afterwards. I wish I had pumped longer but like you said, it is very time-consuming and I eventually quit. I too feel like a good mom and I know I did the best I could under the circumstance. I wish we could stop beating ourselves up over this.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Steph1*
I wish I would've found this forum 5 wks ago. I stopped BFing then (my son is 8 wks). 2nd baby, same story- no engorgement, pump 1/2 oz with good pump. At least this one didn't get dehydrated because we started supplementing in the hospital under LCs guidance. It was so frustrating and time-consuming pumping, nursing, bottlefeeding, and trying the SNS (not to speak of also mothering a 3 yr old) that I finally quit. I felt like I was spending more time with the equipment than with my baby. If I had read your posts I might've continued comfort nursing. I don't feel like a failure when I'm bottle-feeding, I feel like one when I'm nursing. I thought about relactating, but the effort involved seems impossible, plus I've started taking Lamisil tablets and I don't think they're compatible with BF. I know I'm a good mom: I wanted nothing more than to exclusively nurse my babies for extended time. I'm angry, feeling guilty, and betrayed by my body. Because I've been through this before I thought I was OK with all this. I'm feeling sad now. Any support, encouragement would be helpful. Thanks!
P.S. Unlike some other members, I hated the SNS- it was hard enough to get him to latch on correctly to me, much less with the tube in his mouth, then most of the time I wouldn't have it positioned right, so I had to squeeze it adn then it would leak all over me. After 20 minutes, he would only have drank half of what he needed to, so I would have to bottle feed the rest of it. The SNS sounds great in theory, but I thought "you try sucking through this tiny tube, and tell me how easy it is!"


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## mariamommy

Some women might benefit from the treatment described below.
But please don't do it on your own. One has to be so careful with hormones. And maybe this would only work for those who already have problems with ovulation/progesterone. Just a thought.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entre...&dopt=Abstract

Patient with insufficient glandular tissue experiences milk supply increase attributed to progesterone treatment for luteal phase defect.

Bodley V, Powers D.

Deaconess Family Birth Center, MT, USA.

A case report is presented on the experience of a mother diagnosed with insufficient glandular tissue at 3 months postpartum with her first child who then went on to breastfeed her second child (fifth pregnancy) without supplementation of any kind. The mother had difficulty becoming pregnant and maintaining a pregnancy. She was diagnosed with a luteal phase defect and was thus treated with natural progesterone during her fifth pregnancy. The authors speculate that this treatment may have stimulated the development of her mammary alveolar cells, allowing lactation to progress normally.


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## lavendermama

Well that is certainly interesting. Any thoughts?


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## Greensleeves

That info is interesting!


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## lavendermama

I was wondering the exact same thing, Auburn. I have had trouble finding a source for Goat's Rue. How about you?


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## Quirky

You can get goat's rue in tincture form at www.motherlove.com .


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## lavendermama

Thanks for the link!
Has anyone had any success with Goat's Rue?


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## Greensleeves

Lavendermama,

Glad someone else provided the link! I think the goat's rue is not safe to take during pregnancy, if I read correctly. You might want to check that out.

Auburn


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## larastheme

This is my first post, so forgive me in advance!

My DD Larisa was born in late May, and I found I was unable to nurse due to insufficient tissue. I had very slight breast changes during my pregnancy. Nobody really told me that I had insufficient tissue, but my LC told me to give up with pumping, etc, and use a bottle.

I'm too stubborn for that.

I used the SNS for a while, until my midwife let me know about the Lact-Aid (IMHO, much easier to use.) I took fennel and blessed thistle, did everything I could think of. DD is almost 3 months now, I'm still using the Lact-Aid, and I'm still ambivalent about how long I should (I'd like to make it to 6 months.) I shed a lot of tears right after Larisa was born, when the hospital LC looked at me with sad eyes and said that she wished everyone who wanted to BF could, and that everyone who could, would.

Anyway, I found this thread and wanted to put in my two cents. Lord knows what I'm going to do with my next child. I'm already stressing about that, and Larisa isn't even 3 months old!


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## Greensleeves

Sara,


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## Corriander

Hi Larastheme,

You have done a great job to use the Lactaid or SNS for 3 months. Your dd is probably long past having any potential for nipple confusion. If you do at some point decide to use a bottle then you can BOTH bf and bottlefeed. I was able to do this for 16 months with my son. The hardest part for me is always dealing with what I just KNOW others are thinking of me when they see me doing both.

My almost 8 month old ds nurses and then follows up with a bottle 3 times a day as well as eating 3 meals a day in solids. The fact that he took to solids so eagerly has kept his intake of formula below 12 oz. a day for sometime now. He weighs about 20 lbs. I know that I can just continue this routine as long as he wants it.

Good luck and keep up the good work!


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## scubamom

hang in there







, im in the same boat and were still going strong at 7 months.
ive also gotten used to explaining to people about the SNS and why i do both, its never easy though. I also get so frustarated with friends, and friends of freinds etc who give up so easily or dont even try, when i wanted it so bad and couldnt.

My ds i think sees me as a big walking pacifier, as nothing setttles him as much as bf when he is upset, so it makes it all worthwhile. He is also at the age when he reaches for it or lunges at me for more, its a great feeling, and i console myself that i may not have much milk but ive been going longer than a lot of mammas last. i was fully bf, but even my mom quit at four months as i was a biter, so shes proud of me for going so long, which helps too.

hang in there, if you evern need support or a chat just pm me.


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## macbump

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pearmama*
I know some babies go a few days without stooling, but with my history of low milk supply and underfeeding, this is really freaking me out. She pooped twice on Monday but she hasn't done any since. She has peed alot though. And her stools haven't turned yellow yet (the last poop was a yellow-brown).[...]Right now we are averaging maybe 4 oz. a day and she is 10 days old.


I hate to break it to you but this alarms me. A newborn who is still having meconium or transitional poops at 10 days old should be seen by someone. I am a natural birthing tandem nursing long-term nursing (my kids are 4.5 and 2 and nursing both of them) mom and I volunteer with a BF support group (not the LLL but a similar type of group) and have taken several seminars on BFing and this just screams to me that your baby isn't getting enough food. :-( I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news but you know, the first rule is "feed the baby"...she needs to eat.  If you are like me you may be wary of seeing a traditional Doc. who often push formula way TOO much but try and find someone, a LC or bf-friendly natural doc. who could see her, because while this may be that she needs more supplement, it could also be something like bowel troubles. I don't want to worry you too much (since I know we moms are good enough at that without undue stress!) but I just had to say this.

Hugs to you!

Fio







:


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## Corriander

I was so excited to see some activity on this thread! But I'm afraid that macbump has replied in the wrong place.


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## lavendermama

Corriander-I followed your story with interest on this board and I was wondering how the nursing was going for you? I am due with #4 in march and I too suffer from the same problem. I will be ordering my goat's rue after Christmas and hoping it helps a bit!


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## momotim

Hi,
I'm new and had found this while looking up insufficient milk on google.
I don't believe I have insufficient glandular tissue but I have a marginal milk supply and with my third baby continue to supplement. He is 5 weeks. It's nice to find other women who both breast and formula feed. Interestingly enough my first two I was able to get rid of the formula after about two weeks of supplementing early on but it meant feeding every hour sometimes. But my third continues on formula. He's a bigger baby born at eight pounds 14 oz. I use a bottle twice a day and breast feed the rest of the time. I'm trying not to increase the formula, and trying to nurse more if he is hungry. He was gaining 10 oz per week, but based on his last weight which was 2 1/2 weeks ago and his weight today. He has slowed down to just under an oz a day. I plan on weighing him next week and if he isn't gaining close to an oz a day I will up the formula.
It's hard to believe I still obsess about this with my 3rd child. I thought I would be a pro and be able to get rid of the bottle.
In my mind I don't even think formula is bad ,but in my heart I feel sad when formula seems to make him happier than when he just nursed.
I do think everyone should stop thinking of formula as evil and stop feeling so guilty. Just because something is natural does no mean it is easy. the best example of this is childbirth. Just because it is something women should be able to do does not mean that aid from medical science and technology are not necessary. Women used to die in childbirth in large numbers. I'm sure c sections have saved many lives. I feel the same way about formula. We live in 2005 ladies. There is no need for babies to go hungry or get dehydrated. I think if people feel less guilty and think less or breastfeeding as being all or nothing alot more women would actually be breastfeeding.


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## lavendermama

Hi,
have you thought about using a supplementor? It would cut out those bottles and still be stimulating your breasts to produce.
Good to hear from you.


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## pipra

I am so frustrated right now and also a little sad....and relieved! I have a 2 1/2 year old daughter and a 9 month old son and was prepared to nurse them both for at least the 1st year. I didn't find out until I was pregnant w/ my son that there was such thing as tuberous breasts and didn't find out until even later (when it dawned on me one morning) that maybe there was a conection between that and my nursing problems. I have tuberous breasts, did my best to nurse my 1st child and did w/ the help of supplemental formula bottles until she was 8 months old. Then, w/ my 2nd I thought I would be more prepared, more patient and better able to handle nursing but it was worse. I even talked ( the 1st time ) to my midwife, my doula, 2 lactation consultants and not one of them mentioned this was possible. In fact, I told my midwife that my breasts were very assymetrical ( didn't know to describe the tuberous part as I have always been told that ALL TYPES OF BREASTS can breastfeed) and she was very dissmisive, saying all breasts are that way. I'm so glad to have found this website and specifically this thread, even if I didn't find it in time to help w/ nursing. I quit nursing my 2nd at 4 months







The poor baby didn't even care by then, there was just no looking back for him, all he knew is he wasn't hungry anymore.
I just had to get that off my chest, this is just all coming together for me today and I just felt a flood of emotions about it this morning for some reason. I think I finally realized that it sucks that I never had body image issues w/ my breasts 'cuz I knew they were for nursing and assumed I would be able to. Then when it came time to, I couldn't and it was because of my dang small deformed boobs.


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## sip217

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pipra*
I am so frustrated right now and also a little sad....and relieved! I have a 2 1/2 year old daughter and a 9 month old son and was prepared to nurse them both for at least the 1st year. I didn't find out until I was pregnant w/ my son that there was such thing as tuberous breasts and didn't find out until even later (when it dawned on me one morning) that maybe there was a conection between that and my nursing problems. I have tuberous breasts, did my best to nurse my 1st child and did w/ the help of supplemental formula bottles until she was 8 months old. Then, w/ my 2nd I thought I would be more prepared, more patient and better able to handle nursing but it was worse. I even talked ( the 1st time ) to my midwife, my doula, 2 lactation consultants and not one of them mentioned this was possible. In fact, I told my midwife that my breasts were very assymetrical ( didn't know to describe the tuberous part as I have always been told that ALL TYPES OF BREASTS can breastfeed) and she was very dissmisive, saying all breasts are that way. I'm so glad to have found this website and specifically this thread, even if I didn't find it in time to help w/ nursing. I quit nursing my 2nd at 4 months







The poor baby didn't even care by then, there was just no looking back for him, all he knew is he wasn't hungry anymore.
I just had to get that off my chest, this is just all coming together for me today and I just felt a flood of emotions about it this morning for some reason. I think I finally realized that it sucks that I never had body image issues w/ my breasts 'cuz I knew they were for nursing and assumed I would be able to. Then when it came time to, I couldn't and it was because of my dang small deformed boobs.

Oh Pipra that is awful. So much of what you said is exactly how I feel.

Perhaps you should check out the Yahoo group Every Drop Counts, started by one of the ladies here on MDC.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EveryDropCounts/


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## T a r a

I'm so happy to have found this thread! I have been nursing my 8 month old son along with supplementing formula since he was only a few days old. I never had a lot of breast change with my pregnancy, and have been the same size before, during, and after delivery. My son was screaming and starving with only breast milk. I've tried everything under the sun, including pumping, herbs, domperidone, reglan, food, water, rest, etc. Nothing has really made a difference. The most I have ever been able to pump was close to 3oz total, but typically 2oz is my max, and the majority of that is from one side. My son latched well and tried to nurse but easily became frustrated and pulled on my nipple and cried when he couldn't get any more out. We never tried the SNS as he easily switched from bottle to breast. I about gave up several times, and can't even fathom the amount of tears that were shed over my inability to feed my child. Fortunately I stuck it out. He now gets both formula & breast milk, will nurse and I pump occaisionally too as it's almost easier to pump & give him the milk in a bottle. He nurses exclusively overnight. I imagine I only produce around 10-12oz daily and that's it. I've always thought my breasts were small and strangely shaped and have desired implants in the past. DH doesn't really care one way or the other. While I'm not quite as extreme as the picture on this site http://www.007b.com/breast_size_breastfeeding.php , I do closely resemble the second picture from the bottom of the "normal" breasts.

I'm glad to have found others that have been through the same situation and feelings as myself. While I'm optomistic that next time around will be better, I'm still scared to death that I'll encounter the same problems. It's nice to know I'm not alone. I've wondered about the source of my low supply: was it the long labor, all the drugs in delivery, lack of nursing in the first couple of days, the fact that my milk didn't come in until day 5, did I not gain enough weight during pregnancy (only 18 lbs), do I not weigh enough (underweight at 105 lbs & 5'4"), blah, blah, blah. I also had my first baby at age 17 and did not attempt to BF, and was given a medicine to dry up my milk instead. I'm wondering what, if any of these situations may have been a factor? Sorry to be so long winded. I'm just happy to have found people that can relate to my saddness.


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## puffmama

I agree, this thread is very helpful & lets me know that I am not alone. I am not 100% sure that I have insuffient glandular tissue, but I have been doing everything else possible (lactation consutant, pumping, feeding on cue, SNS, fenugreek, brewers yeast, thyroid medicication, oatmeal, even heard soy protein and lechin were good to increase milk...) and still make about 18-20 oz a day for a 13 lb, 14 week old baby!

The thing that was so hard for me is that everyone kept telling me everything was probably just fine after the baby was born. He seemed to be having the right amount of wet and dirty diapers, even though he seemed kind of skinny, and was fussy a lot at the breast, until suddenly one day when my ds was a day shy of 7 weeks old, still at his birth weight and officially lableled 'failure to thrive'. now my doctor thinks I am at risk for PPD because I was so upset by the whole thing-- she says moms aren't usually so emotionally volitle at this stage in the game.

I have my days when I still am sad about not being able to make enough milk for my baby, and I also have the same shyness about bottle feeding my baby in public, esp around ebf's like in my postnatal yoga class.

As much as I too hate being dependent on formula , I just want to remind all you other women out there like me that of course its important that your baby is getting enough food, BUT the most important thing that you can give them is your LOVE-- and we all have enough to feed them more than their share of that.


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## Kristina M.

Does anyone know where on the internet I can get Domperidone? I've been taking it for several months now with a prescription and had success with it, but Iwonder if the internet is cheaper. By the way, I've gone from making about 12ounces to making about 18 ounces.


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## T a r a

you can order it from globaldrug.tv. I have mine compounded and can get full reimbursement from insurance so it's cheaper (not to mention faster) that way. I think it's like $40 for 300 10mg tabs, plus $10 shipping.


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## Kristina M.

I too have tubular breasts and have cried about it a lot. I always knew they were dfferent, but I thought they would grow into normal breasts when i got pregnant. It wasn't until I had my baby (by the way, what does "dd and ds" mean?) that the lactation nurse told me about my breasts and the difficulty I would have bfing. My daughter is now 6 months and I'm happy to say that I'm hanging in there still bfing (and of course supplementing). I used to make only 12 oz, but now I make 18oz in a day thanks to pumping and taking Domperidone. I think I'm going to try taking it 2 pills 4 times a day instead of 1 pill 4 times a day. Good news, my breast are still growing. I've never been more happy to see stretch marks. I'm fixing to try Goat's Rue. It supposedly increases glandular tissue. Real quick, has anyone's breast grown with each pregnancy, or produced more milk the second or third time?


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## T a r a

dd - dear daughter
ds - dear son

I only make ~12oz/day I think too. Domperidone helped some, but not that much. I may have waited too long as I didn't start it until around 4-5 months.


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## Kristina M.

Hi Tara,
I think I started taking domperidone at ~3mths postpartum. I had tried fenugreek before that, but not much happened except I smelled like maple syrup(a side affect)!


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## Kristina M.

Thanks for explainig what ds and dd stood for. (Tara) And for telling me about globaldrug.tv. Thats an awesome site!


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## Kay Mac

Im Hoping that corriander, scubamom and pearmama will see this note and know how much I appreciated you all sharing your story. I have insufficient glandular tissue and have experienced everything Pearmama(I believe it was)
Experienced, except I used the Lactaid instead of the SNS, and I have 4 childrennot five.

For years I have searched for information on this subject and was always very dissapointed that low milk supply due to insufficient glandular tissue just wasnt talked about or written about in any of the breastfeeding How To Books. When I ever got on line and searched and found this site and read your threads I laughed and cried and laughed and cried. It may sound Weird or maybe not. Nobody can even start to understand the hope, frustration and determination you experience when dealing with a genetic condition as this is in my case.

Pearmama I couldnt write anything more accurate than your descriptions ex. Hooked up (I would feel like a science project most of the time) using cold formula so you know the lactaid is flowing properly, to the tube being lined up correctly. You said it all.

I'm a mother of four. First born 1999 fourth 2004. I would have replied earlier but am very busy and Internet access was't convenient. Would love to share my story. I think the support thread is a great idea.

Will someone reply to this so I know I did this right.


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## lavendermama

Hi Kay,
I have this condition as well. I just had baby #4 a few days ago. I am using Lactaid this time instead of SNS and I have to say it works so much better! I still feel like it takes FOREVER to drain it though. I know a bottle goes quicker, but do exclusively breastfed babies take that long? Right now I savor the moments, but I will have to get this house up and running again at some point!








I am taking fenugreek. I have some goat's rue, but it says to take it every other hour and I am waiting until I am a bit more settled in a routine. Anyone have experience with the goat's rue?


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## larastheme

Glad to see some activity here again. While DH and I are TTC #2, I'm wondering if anybody knows about any treatments for IGT. I had a very rough time with DD, mostly I think because I got blindsided with the BF difficulties (I so wish somebody would have warned me, or a book might have at least mentioned it.)

I'm still nursing DD once a day (just before bed) using the Lact-Aid, and she uses sippy cups the rest of the time. She never ever liked a bottle.

A couple of weeks ago, I went to my doctor to ask about what I could do for next time, and she was basically stymied. Any ideas on whether there are treatments? I have to begin cold-calling MD's that might have a clue (I have names of 2 local pediatricians that have a "special interest" in BF.) Any ideas on who to contact? My doctor also advised me to get counseling, because I am still so upset about not being able to BF. I was so set on it, didn't have a bottle in the house, gave away formula samples, etc.

And it appears that my grandmother might have had the same issue. My mother didn't BF us, but when my grandmom was trying to nurse my uncle, apparently he cried all the time, and the doctors told my grandmom that she didn't have enough milk and would have to use formula.

Anyway, I'm just glad to know that I'm not alone in my struggles, and I hope everyone who is affected by this knows the same thing. I think we rock, for our committment and dedication to do something that our bodies are not fully equipped to do.


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## scubamom

i am so glad that this thread is getting revived, i havent posted here for a while, as we stopped bf at 10 months, it was just too hard esp with me going back to work. But as we are ttc #2 i have been talking through the whole not enough milk issue with my DR, as dont want to have to go thru it all again if it can be fixed. But we have come up with nothing conclusive, even after numerous blood tests. We are also having tests as ds is 14 months and still no period (so hard ttc!!!!). The Dr reckons taking domperidone could have affected this (but been off it now 6 months). The tests are showing nothing, but polycystic ovarian syndrome has been mentioned in passing (i read somewhere that this can be linked to low supply, does anyone have anymore info on that?)

So







to all you other mammas with low supply, but big







up for us all for not quitting and sticking with it even when the going gets tough


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## Kay Mac

Hi It's Kay

Havn't tried goats rue, but have read in a chinese nutrition book that goats milk is the next best thing to mothers milk. Though never tried that either. sorry I tend to ramble. I used the lactaid for all four babies nd liked the softness of it. I rember squeezing the air out of the bag after filling and leaving a couple spaces of air just at the beginning of the hose so I could watch them to be sure the formula was moving properly. Also the coldness of the formula on your nipple lets you know it is flowing properly. Time would vary depending on if the baby was "on line". Sometimes the hose would slip off the side of my nipple therefor ending up on the side of the babes pallet. This would take longer. I think BF time varies with everyone.


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## Kay Mac

Hi larastheme
I started to reply and I think I may of lost it all when I visited the Lact Aid web site.
I was there looking to see if It listed the ceo of the co. It didn't. If you call the 800 number to say order supplies it's the lady who calls you back. I can't remember her name but she was very helpful and knowledgable, a wealth of information about people who have studied and researched this problem. (IGT) There is information out there Its just not at all easy to find. It's interesting about your grandmother. good to know for our daughters sake that it may be a inherited flaw. My mother breastfed, my grandmother also no problems. Though my father was adopted so theres an unknown on his side of the family. I have a Great-Aunt who looked like she had a similar build from pictures I saw but she never had children. I'm going to post very long story hoping it will help other mothers realize what exceptional people we are for this undying love and effort we are giving. We definately rock!


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## Debstmomy

I too have suffered with this with my first 2 babes. Had to supplement with DD from 6 weeks on (nursed 9most) & DS 3 days on (weaned 4 yrs). Back then, I had no idea what was going on. Went to a LLL Conference & met the Amazing Lisa Marasco and took her session, Insufficient Milk Syndrome, Myth or ??, titled something like that. Boy, I could have been her text book client.

Now I am pregnant with #3.(I am hoping that none of this comes back, but reality is it probably will so I am setting up my support system. I have 500oz frozen BM donated to me. I have 3 moms that will pump for me. I averaged about 8oz supplement in order to stimulate a good growth pattern.) Needless to say I have been in contact with Lisa. She did her master thesis in Lactation on this, btw. She is published in the Human Journal of Lactation. Anyway she believes I probably have PCOS. Some (not all! some pcos women have coupious milk supplys) women with PCOS suffer with this & do not even know (me!) Many women whom are dx, can get on a med called Metformin, which happens to stimulate breast growth. However I am not dx, so I can not get Metformin. I will begin Goats Rue soon, just need to order it. Goats Rue has Metformin properties & has been know to stimulate breast growth. (I am hoping for this!) I will also take More Milk Plus from time of delivery, and if necessary (which will probably be) get domperidone.

Someone stated that women with this tend to work harder to breastfeed. So TRUE! At least the really dedicated ones, like us! I worked so hard with my DS!!! More so than with DD. This one, I pray for milk to flow from my breasts. I hope the herbals work!!!! It is such an emotional thing for me. I am really REALLY glad I have access to human milk to supplement with this time. That helps on an emotional level. I hope we can keep this thread active, as I predict I will need continued support.


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## darwinphish

I just read this entire thread and am so uplifted by all of your stories! It's so nice to feel that 1) I am far from being alone in this struggle, and 2) I'm not crazy for continuing to BF despite all these obstacles. I'd also like to invite everyone to join a Yahoo! group I'm a part of, Mothers Overcoming Breastfeeing Issues (MOBI):

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/mobi/

It's a great group for finding support (and NO judging for FFing or anything else!) and answers to any and all BFing questions.

I'm not totally sure of the reason for my low milk supply. I think it's mostly to do with how sick I was after delivery - I've never been so sick in my life (I had unexplained and sudden REALLY high blood pressure after the delivery, plus terrible pain from degenerating fibroids... I was actually delierious much of the time) and DD was in the NICU with anemia; we were effectively separated for a week. I barely pumped that whole time, and my milk just never came in. It was devastating, emotionally and physically.

However, my milk did _eventually_ come in, but when it did (at 4 weeks) there wasn't much. Part of me thinks that I'm just perpetually 4 weeks behind in meeting DD's nutritional needs, but part of me thinks there's a larger problem. I'm currently taking domperidone, MM Plus, and goat's rue tincture. I've been trying to pump the recommended 6-8 times daily, but am lucky if I get in 5.

I don't have PCOS, but was on metformin for a strong familial insulin resistance - my endo actually put me on it as a preventative as no woman in my family has NOT had gestational diabetes! It did the trick - I had no sign of GD.

I actually went off met after delivery (sort of accidentally, I just kept forgetting







: ) even tho my endo wanted me to keep taking it. I had no idea it could be helpful to milk supply - I'll start it up again since according to Hale's book it's safe. I also have a hormonal imbalance - I have large uterine fibroids that interfere with normal hormonal function, eating up estrogen and producing excess progesterone. In fact, I wasn't even supposed to be able to get pregnant with them, and they're most likely the reason why DD crashed at the end of my pregnancy - they wrestled away her blood supply. My LC actually thinks that it may be the fibroids that are impacting my milk supply the most. It seems like they are always doing something to make life hard.







: I *could* have an operation to remove them, but I am sort of done with hospitals and operations for the moment.

There is a med to treat fibroids that will come out in 2005. It makes me sad, but if it's necessary to stop BFing DD at one year so I can take it, I probably will.

There are so many emotions that I go through on a daily basis, trying to BF. Each small victory and setback gets so magnified. I sometimes wonder why I am SO obsessed with it, if it's healthy. The worst guilt I have by far is when I fantasize about "next time" - as in, with my next child, I won't have these fibroids, I won't be sick, s/he won't be sick, we'll BF from the minute s/he's born, s/he'll lie on my tummy and I'll be the first person s/he sees, and we'll BF for years in perfect harmony... It's silly, and probably totally normal to want that "second chance" but it makes me feel terrible that I can't just accept and love what I do have with DD and not need to fantasize about something "better".

I really want to get to a place where our BFing just "is", where I don't feel any constant, obsessive, drive or struggle to make it "better". I pray every day that my milk supply will increase, but I also know that I need to find some acceptance of where it is right now, to find a way to love what we have and stop regretting that it's not the perfect fantasy I had before she was born.

Well thanks for reading! All I really intended to say was a quick hello to all you fellow low supply mamas - guess I had some thoughts that needed to get on out!








to all of you!


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## Debstmomy

Welcome Liz.

When you start back on the Met, can you post if you see any results??? Also be careful of mixing Goats Rue with Met, as they are closely related. I would work with your LC on it.

I too have had fibroids. My Doc wanted me to have a hysterectomy & I said NO WAY! UAE was not an option for me either. I went the Myomectomy route, for me that was best. Have you considered that? What med are you talking about? I wrote a research paper on fibroids about 1.5 years ago & I do not recall any meds for fibroids (Other than hormones.).I am very interested in this.

Good Luck. You are NOT alone. For me finding BF support was very valuable.


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## darwinphish

Hi Cristina, Thanks for your reply! I'll definitely let you know how getting back on the met goes. Thanks for the tip about the Goat's Rue - I'll call my LC about it tomorrow.

I've definitely considered having the myomectomy - especially since the fibroids grew so much during my pregnancy, but I'm just not up for another major abdominal surgery at the moment! The drug that I'm talking about is asoprisnil - it's a "selective progesterone receptor modulator" much like one of the 2 drugs that make up RU486. It's currently in Phase III trials and should be released in early 2005. I'm very hopeful that it could be a good drug for me - espeically since UAE is only recommended for women who know they're finished having kiddos, and myo sounds pretty intense.

I'll let y'all know how the met goes! Thanks again for the welcome!


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## Kay Mac

If anyone can help me better understand how these posts , Quick replys, and threads work. Or if you could point me in the right direction I would appreciate it. When I go to my thread it says i have three posts. I only see the one from kay mac. now when I send a quick reply does that get posted or does it get sent to the author of above thread? Thanks for your help if you can. I found the replys. I need to get more computer training.
I'm excited to be in contact with other mothers with the same challenges. For me The most important thing to keep in my mind while breast feeding, bottle feeding, supplementing and pumping was to enjoy this beautiful little baby, and if what you are doing to get the most out of your body is exausting you then stop it and just always bring to breast first before any supplementing system. After 2months of all of the above methods I was exhausted and did chuck the lact Aid Always fed breast first then Avent new born nipple ( a one hole nipple) to "top the baby off". I stopped trying to keep track of how many ounces of formula vs. breast milk she was getting. I'm talking about my fourth child.
She nursed the longest and sometimes nursing was all she would need. I think because sometimes its not the
quantity of milk but the closeness and suckling that they need. I guess at times I was more of a human pacifyer. I'm just going to share any bit of information
It may help someone else and it helps me to write about this shocking, challenging and rewarding part of my life.


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## catnip

I've just been told by my lactation consultant that I have what she calls PCOS breasts. I've been making about 90% of what my 10 week old daughter needs, and she is hopeful that with agressive pumping, I may be able to increase to all she needs and simply supplement with my own pumped milk. So far her poops are improving and we're up to 10-12 wets a day with 2 days of pump and sns. No formula yet, but as long as I can still night nurse, that will be something. LC says DD may need a bottle of formula or two a day as she grows, but that she'll help me breastfeed as much as possible. Her weight gain has so far been on the very low end of normal, hydration always good, so I'm not so bad off. Just a note on formulas, Horizon Organic now makes one that is A) organic and B) not aggressively marketed. If we need it, that's what I'll use.


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## darwinphish

Hi Michelle - good for you for working so hard to breastfeed your DD! I thought you might be interested in joining MOBI - Mothers Overcoming Breastfeeding Issues:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/mobi/

It's a great group of mamas, many working to overcome supply issues, like myself. I'm only at 50-60% of DD's needs but still hopeful that I can improve.

Are you taking metformin for PCOS? Many moms with PCOS find that Metformin is helpful to their supply. And how about fenugreek? At 90% of your DD's needs you would be a very good candidate for using herbals to put you over the top!

By the way, if you do end up needing formula, I would wait on Horizon until your DD is about 4-5 months old. It's recommended that infants only consume partially hydrolyzed milk proteins (like GoodStart) until their guts mature a little. It kills me to use Nestle anything but it's really the best for DD's tummy. We plan to switch to Horizon in a month or so, along with using donated breastmilk whenever possible.








and good luck!


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## catnip

I've never been diagnosed by a Dr. with PCOS. I concieved accidentally (good accident) after 6 years of irregular periods and no birth control, followed a massive weight loss, then 4 months clockwork regular 29 days. The LC says my breast shape (and my own observations of how they function,) coupled with that history, leads her to think I have PCOS. After 3 days of aggressive pumping, she's gained almost 4 ounces, and has a higher color level. I'm pumping extra in the AM and feeding it to her in the evening when my supply is low.


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## HaveWool~Will Felt

I just read this entire thread and I am crying my eyes out.
I DO have PCOS and have had three children. Had difficulty BF with my first two (low milk supply) and my third child died hours after birth. I donated her breastmilk for 3 months.

I have taken all of the herbs and domperidone. NOTHING.

I am currently gearing up for ttc in about 3 months. Really wondering about the Metformin.

Thank you for starting this thread. More later.


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## jenrookle-215

I did not have your condition, but I did have surgery on one breast that greatly reduced my milk flow on that side. To top it off, I developed a rare immune reaction to my pregnancy at 7 months and had to be put on some nasty steroids and other meds that would not be compatible with nursing (natural remedies just wouldn't work and unfortunately, the medicines were the only real choice) After my son was born, they added the one drug to the mix that was really made nursing a no no and my doctors told me I had to stop breastfeeding. I had nursed him for six days and was, needless to say, devastated! I had nursed my first child 'til he was over 3 years old when he weaned naturally, so i was definitely committed to the nursing lifestyle and way of parenting.

I decided to pump and dump the medication tainted milk in order to maintain my milk supply. I bottle fed him during this time. The pumping schedule was really hard because I was still quite sick and I didn't really know how long I would have to do it (how long I would have to keep it up if I were going to wait for them to "let" me go off this medication) Finally, I felt better enough and not so dependant on this particular medication that i JUST FLUSHED THE REST OF THE MEDICINE DOWN THE TOILET! What a release that was!!!
And here's what I really wanted to tell you (sorry for the long preamble) I bought a medela supplemental nursing system that allowed me to feed Nicholas from my own breast even thought i did not yet have adequate milk supply (the pumping and dumping only helped maintain at least SOME flow of milk so i wouldn't completely dry up.) If you don't know, supplemental nursing sytem consists of a bottle that you wear around your neck that has a small tube coming from it that you can run down your own breast and nipple. The Baby nurses from your breast, stimulating your own milk supply, while receiving the supplement of milk from the tube. You can have the closeness and joy of the nursing relationship even if you aren't ever fully able to wean yourself and the baby from the supplement. The SNS helped me to basically relactate after I had almost dried up (i used milk enhancing herbs in conjunction with the SNS) After 6 weeks of pumping and dumping, I got to nurse Nicholas as if it was the first time!! It was such a joy. I then went on to nurse him from one breast for almost 4 years.

Point of story is that the SNS really helped me create more milk flow while enjoying the nursing relationship. I had two obstacles...one breast that did not really work due to surgery and the period of not being able to nurse and subsequently losing milk supply and needing to use herbs and the SNS to rebuild that relationship.

I don't know about your condition, but I just wanted to tell you this story to give you some encouragement. Ask your lactation consultant what she thinks about the SNS (La Leche can put you in touch with one as can your local hospital...try la leche league first, though) I still have mine and I'd be glad to offer it to you if you want to see if it helps.

Good luck.

Jenny

My email is [email protected]


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## Stormintheattic

WOW! There is an insuffient glandular tissue topic on MDC?! I am going to subscribe to this and slowly work my way through all the posts (being a non-native speaker I am kinda slow'& please forgive my spelling). Thanks for starting one!

I just wanted to say hi and







to all you mommies struggling with this. When BF-ing both my babies we had huge problems, not in the actual feeding (they both were naturals!) but not gaining any weight at all in the first 2 months of DS'life. He lost over a pound and a half initially even though I clusterfed about 20 hours a day. Pumping the other 4. 3 LCs visited and were














: because over here most LCs still believe having insuffient glandular tissue doesn't interfere with being able to BF properly. So DS was supplemented a little formula (no mm donation scheme over here yet then, it only started this week, YAY!) until he selfweened at about 6MO. I estimate I made about 75% of his intake.
Finally the 4th LC immediately saw the problem. By now I was BF-ing DD with the same problems. Made worse by the fact that DD would take the bottle or anything else but my breasts. So we SNS-ed until DD was 7½MO and she weened herself.
I am hoping to find some more info on the supplements you take to improve supply. I have tried fenugreek and domperidone with DD with hardly any result. Cashew nuts seem to improve my supply slightly but after 7 months I couldnt stand those anymore ;-)'Also hoping to find out why my DC ween themselves so early. They are pretty active kids so that might have something to do with things.
So what is this Metformin I keep reading about?

jackieg213, what an amazing gesture to donate your DDs milk.







we are hoping to be TTC in about 3 months too.


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## HaveWool~Will Felt

Welcome Yvon! Very happy to see you here.
Thank you for sharing about your struggles. It helps to not feel alone.








I am really hoping that the INTENSE chinese medicine and scupuncture I am doing will make a difference when it comes to BF my next baby.
I got to tell ya, there aren't many things that feel as hopeless as not being able to feed your baby entirely. It so breaks my heart.

Yvon, I see you are a knitter....what are you currently working on? I just finished, today, a beautiful purse that I knit with wool, felted it....this wool didn't felt so well....however it is still lovely.

I am hoping to broaden my knitting horizons... :LOL

Hope to see you soon.


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## Stormintheattic

WOw, I just finished reading the entire thread and I am in tears over a;; the stories.
Jackie, you're right. It DOES help to know you're not alone even though everyone you know tells you you are. And it does break your heart when youre not able to be the supermom you want to be.

I always felt I was in between the huge part of moms who try but give up at the first sign of a possible problem and the all-natural-few that do not seem to have any problems at all. The first group looks at you funny because you keep on trying and starve your child, the last group keeps insisting that you must be doing something wrong or arent trying hard enough.
So, tell me more about Chinese medicin and what you are going to try specifically. WE have a famous chinese doctor quite near that I might want to visit when I am more informed.

knitting: Just finished some toe-up-socks for DS that have been my on-the-go WIP for the longest time, he only just fits them now. And a fairy cardigan/dress for DD. My other WIPS are 4 pairs of long pants, 1 skoaker (skirt-soaker) and 2 soakers. They're all knit but waiting to be embellished. I am an embellishment freak in the CD world. As you can see here.
I love felting my knits too! Especially bags and hats and stuff. At the moment I am widening my base a little, learning to spin my own yarn and starting to weave. I love fibre arts!


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## Debstmomy

I just got 500oz of breast milk! I am so happy! I really needed that reasurance, just in case my past problems reappear.

Now this baby can seriously come at any time. I am ready!!!!!!

just thought I would share!


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## Mizelenius

Can I join this thread? I don't have IGT but I have read every post in this thread and can relate to so much of what you are saying . . .in my case, my DD has a sucking problem so she just doesn't get most of the milk that's there.

Anyway, I can relate to feeling embarrassed by carrying around bottles (though we use a Haberman feeder to improve her suck). I also nurse her and bottlefeed her, which I'm sure looks weird. It makes me sad to see how satisfied she is after a bottlefeed and fussy after nursing. I spend so much time feeding her (nursing, bottlefeeding, pumping) that I have very little time/energy to really enjoy my DDs. I have had to use formula on occasion because sometimes the pumping schedule gets too complicated (and I have to be very careful about maintaining my supply-- it's adequate but not overabundant by any means). I don't have super-bad feelings toward formula anymore now that I am thankful for its existence . . .well, I do, but only in the sense that it reminds me how I feel I've failed.

I wake up every day thinking "Maybe today the problem will have fixed itself!" I have periods where I feel OK, but then when my milk supply in the fridge gets low (and I don't have a bigstash!) I start worrying that maybe my pumping won't keep up with DD, or that there is realistically a point where I simply won't be able to find the time to pump exclusively, so DD will be mostly FF.

I feel so lonely. Like you mamas mentioned, it's like limbo . . .where do I fit in? Not with exclusive BF (I'd feel I have to justify what I do) and not with FF who did it by choice. Very few people can truly understand. Sometimes I wonder why it's such a big deal, but then I realize that eating is one of the major activities of infants, so OF COURSE it's a big deal.

Once in awhile I think I should just FF and be done with it. But then I find some new hope, even though it is frustrating to be disappointed again and again. I don't think it's healthy to be obsessed either. I think I will regret it and wonder why I didn't enjoy each precious moment instead of dedicating so much effort to this. It's a balance that I don't yet know how to achieve.

I exclusively BF my 1st DD, so I find that I am adjusting (poorly) to how I parent with bottlefeeding being so important.

Thanks for letting me share.


----------



## ejones

Hi. I also have tubular breast. This problem has really made me depressed.







I can't get over the fact that I will most likely never exclusivly bf my children. My son is 6mo. and we still nurse when ever he wants to. I can't stand the fact that nobody really talks or knows anything about this (Except all of you). It makes me feel so horrible. I tried the drugs and herbs and nothing works! The most I've ever pumped was 2ounces! I went to the LLL web and they didn't even mention it. Shouldn't they explaine these problems? I am just so bitter about this whole thing. I hope I can bf exclusivly my next child, but then I will feel guilty b/c I wasn't able to do so with my first.


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## T a r a

ejones,

I feel your pain. the most I have ever pumped is 2-3 oz at once, and I still feel like a failure as I was not able to EBF my child. I'm hoping next time will go better. I'm trying to figure out all possible ways to improve next time. I felt so bitter and jealous talking to a friend of mine this weekend. She has been nursing her 4 week old with no problems, has plenty of milk, and her breasts are the smaller than mine (A before baby, B after). I felt so awful for wanting her to have problems too. I cried after I left her house, feeling terrible and like a failure because I couldn't EBF my baby and had to use bottles and formula. I know DS is fine and healthy and doesn't know any different, it just hurts, KWIM?


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## HaveWool~Will Felt

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ejones*
I tried the drugs and herbs and nothing works! The most I've ever pumped was 2ounces!

Me too, honey...me too!!!!
I feel like such a failure around bf'ing....and my youngest is 4.
I did nurse my children until they were 2....although I was never able to EBF.
























If only....


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## ejones

Hi Tara and Jackie. Thanks for your input. It's good to know that I'm not alone. Tara, I also feel jealousy towards bf moms. I think it's normal for us. Don't you girls wish that this problem was talked about more often? All the women that I know had no idea that this even existed. It was so frustrating having to explain and even show my weird boobs! Let's all keep strong and keep nursing our little precious ones. It's a wonderful bond for both.

Question?
We might be pregnant again. I plan to continue to nurse my 61/2 mo. old until the obgyn says I should stop. Have any of you nursed your children while pregnant? If so how long did you to it for?

Thank you and good night.


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## Stormintheattic

Oh girls, I recognise all this. The jealousy, the hoping that next time its gonna be ok, even hoping you will have enough milk by some miracle the next day, the lack of energy to do anything but BF.
But maybe we should try to see the more positive side of things. Breastfeeding is more than milk alone. We're all examples of that. And we give our kids all we can. Even if we need a little help from a cow or another mom.

Ejones, I was still nursing DS when I miscarried and then became pregnant with DD. Unfortunately it was round the time DS gave up on BF so my milksupply decreased quickly. I am not sure which came first. He nursed for about 2 and a half months into the pregnancy


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## Quirky

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ejones*

Question?
We might be pregnant again. I plan to continue to nurse my 61/2 mo. old until the obgyn says I should stop. Have any of you nursed your children while pregnant? If so how long did you to it for?

ejones, unless you have a history of preterm labor and nursing triggers strong contractions, there's no reason to quit nursing while pregnant. Your ob/gyn may or may not know about the safety of nursing during pregnancy - keep in mind that ob/gyns don't study breastfeeding for more than a couple of hours during med school, so what they "know" is often what they've heard - i.e. myths.

Unless you are put on complete pelvic rest (i.e. no sex) it is safe to nurse throughout pregnancy. Orgasm triggers much stronger contractions than nursing does (for me, O would trigger VERY strong uterine clamping-down, while nursing did nothing to trigger anything. The clamping-down wasn't problematic in any way except comfort, it's just because the uterus is more toned the second time around. Makes for worse afterpains too.







)

For more information, check out the wonderful book by Hilary Flower, Adventures in Tandem Nursing as well as the Kellymom site, link here.

Now, this is a separate issue from your supply decreasing during pregnancy. It happened to me and my son nursed through my pregnancy although I put limits on it because of the comfort issue. That's a separate issue you need to decide for yourself based on your needs and your baby's.


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## catnip

No real consolation, but my county has a program to promote exclusive breastfeeding, and their performance is rated by the percentage of EBF babies in the program. They had a special meeting with their funding task force on my case, and it was determined that I count on the EBF side of the equation because my daughter is breastfed to the limits of my body's ability. (It's a great program... I get free unlimited access to an IBCLC, weekly weight checks if I want them, 24 hour hotline support and will get a free hospital grade breast pump loan when they get them in. Paid for with tobacco tax money and available to any county resident, not just low income.)

BTW, I started Motherlove's More Milk Special Blend, and it really seems to be helping. My breast size has increased, I am pumping more, and wet, poops and weight gain are good with a bit less formula.


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## Stormintheattic

Quote:


Originally Posted by *catnip*
BTW, I started Motherlove's More Milk Special Blend, and it really seems to be helping. My breast size has increased, I am pumping more, and wet, poops and weight gain are good with a bit less formula.

Michelle, do you know of a place online that ships international that has this special blend? I definately will wanna try this with our next baby.

And just for you ladies, this o so true quote:
"Women should not feel guilty if they are unable to breastfeed, but they
*should* feel guilty if they are unwilling to do so, and they should be
intellectually honest enough to know the difference." -Elizabeth Gene


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## HaveWool~Will Felt

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Stormintheattic*
"Women should not feel guilty if they are unable to breastfeed, but they
*should* feel guilty if they are unwilling to do so, and they should be
intellectually honest enough to know the difference." -Elizabeth Gene


Oh so true.....I LOVE IT!!!!


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## ejones

Michelle that's great that your county has a support group for exclusive bf. I will totally look into it. Do they have a web-site?

That Quote is so true. But I will always wish I had enough milk for my son.

I also want information on that special blend.

Stormintheattic, I'm sorry for your loss. I really do try to look at the positive side of all of this. I have to or else I will fall apart. It has just been a slow process for me. I do give my self some credit for everything I give to my son.


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## Ayleneb

Hi all, I just started researching this issue. I gave birth to my third son last Monday and was hopeful that bfing would be more successful with him than my other two. I was thrilled when he immediately had a good strong latch and dreamed that this time maybe it would work. By day four it was clear that I was doomed to be letdown again as his wet diapers were scarce, still showing urine crystals and my breasts still hadn't changed size even though my milk had "come in".
I read in Huggins Mothers Nursing Companion about hypoplastic breasts (never noticed that entry when I was struggling for four months with my last son - tried *everything*, fenugreek, SNS, twice weekly visits with the IBCLC for the first two months and finally "gave in" and started giving him bottles of formula). They do sound like what might be my case; however the picture posted at the start of this thread is much more extreme than my situation. This link http://www.leron-line.com/IGT.htm however shows several different sets of breasts with differing levels of lacking tissue and the one marked #2 looks almost exactly like me when I'm on the engorged side of things...so I'm starting to believe that I may truly be one of those 2-5% that just can't produce enough breastmilk.
At this point I'm struggling to figure out how much formula I should be supplementing with and still keeping up as much bfing as possible. I feel that every drop of bm is valuable to the babies health but I refuse to allow him to be classified as FTT as my last son was. It's great to find a group of like-minded ladies who value bfing as much as I do and understand what it means to really try but still not be able to bf.
Noone around me understands how heartbreaking this experience is for me - fortunately this time I'm really just trying to focus on making sure that the baby gets what *he* needs and keep reminding myself that this isn't about *me* being a failure as a mother, etc...
I hope that link will help someone else who is trying to dx themselves.
Aylene
Mom to Simon, Matthew and Jamie


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## scubamom

Thank you for the link, its very informative. I am also sorry to hear you are having to deal with all of it again
I am 7 months pg right now and dreading going thru this again, as i know i will as still have no breast changes.
what i always found the hardest is just that people dont understand, and it takes way to much explaing why i Bf then pull out a bottle (i didnt like using sns when NIP) I also get peeved when people use low milk supply (when clinically its not) as a reason to quit, as its so not the same as we go thru.
sorry for venting but its startimg to dawn on me that i have this battle to face again.

But i also truly believe that every drop of BM is worth its weight in gold, and i would never give up on the closeness i felt with my son while nursing, milk or no milk.

I am just praying that this little guy has a great strong latch like his brother did.


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## Stormintheattic

Aylene, great link, very helpfull, thank you! Type 2 looks just about right for me too.
Just wanted to add that you are doing a great job! IMO you're right, you are giving Jamie every single drop you can. And he's benifiting from every feeding.


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## ejones

Hi girls! Hope everyone is doing well. I just stopped nursing my 15mo old son and I'm 31/2 months pregnant with our second child!







I have noticed that my breast feel a little sensitive and lumpy since I've stopped nursing. They have also slowly increased in size, but not much. They are still so tubular with, of course, NO CLEAVAGE!







I am planning to nurse our 2nd as long as I did w/ my 1st or longer. I'll let you girls know if this time I will be able to produce more milk. Cross your fingers. I now know what challenge I have ahead of me when it comes to nursing. I can't wait to tell all those LC that didn't know a thing about my condition. They were sooo clueless, they pissed me off! They just made assumptions that were not true.














I can't stand bottles, but I've learned to make peace w/ them.







Doing both has worked best for us. So we'll see what happens.

I'll keep you posted.


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## newmonny

I thought it was just me. My breasts are also shaped like those on that website. I've struggle with breastfeeding using sns since he was 4 days old. Which I didn't mind using except for the fact that I wished he was only getting my milk. I had to return to work full time at 3 months so my son has unfortunately gotten use to the bottle and will not latch any longer. Which has been devastating for me. I still continue to pump at work and hand express at home and I probably get a measly 3 ounces out a day. At one point I was able to get out 2 ounces a feed and I was so excited. This whole experience with not being able to supply enough milk for my son has been devastating, but I still would not trade those precious moments we had together when my son was half asleep and bf. He looked so beautiful there. I'm having a hard time even giving up pumping at work... even though he's not latching on any more. I still try every once in awhile to bf to see if he'll latch... no luck for 7 days. I keep hoping he'll start enjoying bf again and I don't want to give up the little supply I have. Any thoughts or support? My son is now 6 months old by the way and I also used every herb, drug, and constant pumping to build supply with no prevail. I'm sorry to hear other women had to go through what I have, but it's good to hear I'm not the only one.


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## Corriander

I started this thread so long ago I can't remember! So I'm glad that it is still providing support to those of us who can't find help even from LCs.

About your son not latching on, keep offering! If you can still pump, do that for as long as it works for you also. It's such a gift, that breastmilk. My first child, who only bf for 6 months because of all the difficulties, latched on again when she was 2 years old! It was a little strange. I had just had my second child, I was lactating again. She knew that the baby was breastfeeding and she asked me if she could too.

But when you have had enough and the frustrations are outweighing the benefits and it is negatively impacting your relationship with your child, then give yourself permission to give it up. Considering the uphill battle that women like us face, I figure a month of our bf is equivilent to 3 for those women who find it so effortless! like dog years.

Good luck! You're doing great!


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## CathMac

Corriander,
I had supply issues as a full time working mom but nothing as severe as this so I would feel presumptuous making a suggestion. I will pose a question to you as a BTDT Mom.

Would you recommend co-sleeping and nursing on demand overnight and during the early hours when prolactin supplies are highest?

Just a thought.

Thanks for the inspiring thread. It makes me realize how lucky I am, despite the issues I have faced.
~Cath


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## Corriander

Definately bf at night and co-sleep if that works for you. I have known women you have had hardly any supply during the day, but have had their babies latched on and feeding all night. That works if you can get some sleep at the same time.

Some babies who when they are awake and hungry do not have the patience to stay latched on if you take a long time to let down or don't have much supply. But they will stay latched on and nursing while they are sleeping or napping.


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## ejones

I am sceduled for a c-sec on the 31st of July. I am still planning on a vbac. I'll have to wait and see if I go into labor. We are having a girl! I'm sad to say though, that my boobs, again have not enlarged at all during my pregnancy!!! I will just wait and see after I give birth of any changes that do occur. I will still keep you all posted. I don't have high hopes, but at least I know what I'm looking forward to.

Peace out ladies!


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## luminesce

My lactation consultant confirmed that I have IGT. We have estimated that I'm probably making 70-75% of his needs with the effects of fenugreek (which aren't reliable because I build up a tolerance to it and have to stop and start it again for the effect.) My son has been gaining all along but is at the very low end of normal. He has been trending downward on the growth charts. He is at the 5th percentile now at 10 weeks - down from 46th percentile at birth.

This has been the most difficult thing I've ever dealt with. I wanted so much for our breastfeeding relationship to be a beautiful thing - and it is, but it has also been rife with frustration for both of us. I find myself crying a lot - I feel so bad when he gets frustrated and I can't give him what he needs. I also get angry when I think of all the women I know who chose not to breastfeed for convenience!

I think one of the most difficult aspects of dealing with this was the ups and downs I experienced trying to figure out if something was wrong. I was all over the board - thinking he was just a slow gainer to thinking I had a supply issue. I even once thought when he didn't nurse long he was getting more efficient at removing milk when what actually was happening was that the flow stopped. My son has been such a good baby through all this. Many times, he would just eat what I had and then sleep, wake up a little bit later, eat what I had then sleep again. This cycle continued until recently when he started to get more hungry and started to express frustration at slow let-down and small quantity. It truly has taken me 10 weeks to put it all together and to find a LC who could confirm what was happening and help me. I wish that my midwives would have told me what the size and shape of my breasts could mean and what I might be dealing with. I know that MOST women should have no trouble breastfeeding if they manage it right but I know now that I'm one of the ones who physically CAN'T. I've been reassured by several care givers (because my son was gaining, albeit slowly) that my son was doing ok, despite his thin frame, the repeated uric acid in his diapers (which even made us think he might have a metabolic disorder) and his infrequent stooling (longest stretch was 12 days!) All of these things can be normal but all together they should be viewed as suspicious especially when the mother thinks there is a problem and has breasts that are classic IGT. There were several opportunities for early intervention and help but I had to figure it out for myself and trust my gut instinct that he wasn't getting enough and locate a LC who could help me. When I saw her and she looked at the test weighs I had done with feeds she told me that I had beat all records of nursing frequency. There were 27 weighs in a 24 hour period. For 10 weeks I've nursed around the clock to try to build my supply and transfer small amounts of milk to my son. The funny thing is that I never thought this was a problem. I thought babies needed to be nursed this often.

I always wondered why my breasts looked so funny but when I saw the pictures of women with IGT I finally knew what was wrong with them. On top of the IGT, I had a small benign fibrocystic lump removed from my (bigger) right breast and the incision was made right around the areola which is the worst place to have surgery when it comes to severing milk ducts.









I'm going to try Domperidone and keep up the insane nursing schedule - and if that doesn't work, look at trying to get some donated breast milk. I'm worried about taking this drug but I don't like my other alternatives (I refuse to take Reglan. Even though he has been exposed to formulas, I don't want to use them.) I was wondering though - has anyone else with IGT had any luck with Domperidone?


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## Quirky

Oh, many







to you for doing such a great job!

I don't have IGT, but I did have luck with domperidone in increasing my supply. It is very safe, and in fact is approved by the AAP for use in nursing mothers. Here are Dr. Jack Newman's handouts on it. You may want to try emailing him -- I will try to round up his email address for you, I know he is very approachable and helpful.

http://www.kellymom.com/newman/19a-domperidone1.html

http://www.kellymom.com/newman/19b-domperidone2.html

http://www.kellymom.com/health/meds/...actagogue.html

http://www.kellymom.com/health/meds/...#Galactagogues (domperidone is L1, the safest category for lactation)

Goat's rue is an herb that is thought to be very helpful in increasing glandular tissue -- you can get goat's rue in tincture form at www.motherlove.com (Motherlove Herbals). You would need to try it for at least a month.

Have you seen the link here with more info on hypoplastic breasts?

http://www.007b.com/breast_size_breastfeeding.php

Have you talked to your doctor about trying to determine whether YOU have a metabolic disorder associated with IGT, such as PCOS? If you have PCOS, you can go on metformin (Glucophage), and that may help with your milk supply issues.

Hang in there.


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## sarahandlily

wow! i have searched for months and just happened upon this thread.

anyone tried natural progesterone cream?

goat's rue?

i am pregnant with #3 and wanting to get everything lined up now.

i have the same story as pp. i have tried to get answers the last 5 years about why i can not bf. i have shown everyone my boobs that will look, and i just now discovered what is going on.

thanks for sharing your stories - they really make a difference.

thanks!
sarah


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## ILoveMyBabyBird

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sarahandlily* 

anyone tried natural progesterone cream?



I am wondering the same thing, I read an article online that said it worked for one mom.

I am still bfing ds, eventhough have never been able to fully supply his needs.

Around 9 months I realized that he had a lip-tie, which may have been the reason he could never have a great latch, but at that point it was too difficult to fix the problem. Needless to say, he has a gap inbetween his two upper front teeth, so I suppose he will have to get braces some day, or we will have to get it clipped later.

Above all, I know I still have IGT, but I am hoping that the next future lo will not have the lip tie and if he/she does, we will get it clipped from the beginning, and I know that will improve my production, next time I am not hoping for a miracle full supply, but I am certain with more info and experience I will be able to produce more, and deal with the obstacles better than with ds.

BTW-Keep up the good work! We are all troopers in this, but it is worth it.


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## mkmb129

Corey, I have a friend who is exclusively pumping, so keeping up a supply is a bit difficult. She stopped pumping when her ped told her she can't mix formula and ebm, and just about lost her supply completely. She started taking domeperidone and now she said she makes enough for 2 or 3 babies at least! She's got a freezer full, only pumps half the time she used to, and gets so much. Good luck, I hope that it helps you!!


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## svmaine

Greetings, while I'm new to the mothering forums I'm 2 big boys into dealing with self diagnosed hypoplasia. I also went through the devastating heartbreak of not being able to completely feed my children and now I'm 25 weeks into pregnancy #3 with hopes of some new miracle that will help. I tried fenugreek, goat's rhue, teas, with my first ds, and with my second was told about domperidone. I was on that for months and I'm not sure if it was all the herbs and domperidone or that is was my 2nd ds, who was a voracious eater, but I produced twice as much. Before you get too excited that meant I produced 1oz. per boob per pumping







:







. So soon I'll be placing another order of domperidone and trying one of the new motherlove concoctions that I think I can begin taking before I give birth. I'll also be looking for some donated bmilk since I can't afford the organic formula this time. I'm happy to offer up all the trials and tribulations I've gone and will be going through, if I can help another mom get through this then maybe the guilt will lessen someday. And if there any new brilliant ideas please post







!!!


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## basset

I am so happy to see this thread. I posted my story a few weeks ago. I would do anything to be able to not have to supplement. I hate buying formula but donor milk is out of reach for us. My average day's worth of production is 7-9 oz. I see it this way.... It is better than none at all. There are millions of germ fighting antibodies in the 1 bottle my LO consumes everyday. I put my LO to my breast and he punches my chest because it is his way of extracting milk from mama. So, we pump. I pump 5x's a day. I used to pump 12+ x's a day to no avail and I got to the point I was losing my sanity! My supply never increased. I took dom, goats rue, special blend... nothing. My LO lost so much weight in the begining. I don't have PCOS. I don't have tubular breast, but LC noticed that the shape of my breast indicate that I am IGT. I never had any changes in my breast during pg and after I only had an hour or 2 with mild engorgement.

I agree with the pp re no info on LLL web-site nor info in the book "womanly art". There needs to be more studies done on this. I just get so mad knowing that had my dr. not been an LC my baby might have been labeled FTT.

Anyways, all of you are awesome!!!!!!!


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## thepeach80

I'll bump a way old thread. lol I guess I'm just curious what links there are other there about this. I've looked at the one site w/ all the breasts and I'm having a hard time seeing differences between the one that has tubular breasts as opposed to some of the 'normal' breasts. Is it just one of those things where if you don't make enough milk despite busting your butt, you probably have tubular breasts? I mean my breasts look like the tubular one, but I never thought anything of them. I'm a B cup normally, never got any bigger while pg or bfing, never got engorged at their birth, and have had to supplement all 3 of my kids, the last one being almost FTT by the time the DR suggested I better try it (she was happy to starve). I have been engorged before, specifically a week after (yes, it took a week) Ilana decided she was done bfing at 9 mos and I was too tired to fight w/ her still about it. Does that mean anything? Thoughts? It doesn't really matter now as this whole bfing thing is one reason we're not thinking about more kids, but I guess inside it would make ME feel better to know there was a reason I couldn't ebf my kids and I feel like knowing would make it so I could help others.


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## MaryJaneLouise

Is this the site you are looking at with different pics of breasts?

http://www.leron-line.com/IGT.htm

ETA Sorry that link doesn't work I'll look for more.

Here's from Riordan's BFing & Human Lactation:

http://books.google.com/books?id=-Xh...EU&output=html


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## bumblebeej

The first link isn't working for me. The second one I've never seen before, so ty very much for posting!


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## ruhbehka

Quote:


Originally Posted by *basset* 
I don't have tubular breast, but LC noticed that the shape of my breast indicate that I am IGT. I never had any changes in my breast during pg and after I only had an hour or 2 with mild engorgement.

Can you give me more info about this???

I am suspecting this may be my issue, too. Or very mild tubular stuff.

Mine have always been kind of underdeveloped-looking, a bit conical. Similar problems with milk supply, little to no engorgement, no breast changes, etc. Peaked at about 20 oz per day with insane pumping/SNS/domperidone/oatmeal/MMP regimine.


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## lyterae

I have insufficient glandular tissue and was diagnosed as having hypoplastic breasts. It was heart wrenching to discover that I couldn't make enough milk to feed my daughter. I was taking Reglan, fenugreek, blessed thistle, on top of all the oatmeal, water ,etc... The most I was able to pump on any given day was 2 ounces ( I was pumping after every feeding as well as every two hours if she hadn't woken to eat.)

I couldn't understand how no one had thought to mention that there might be a problem, and I didn't think there could be any way I couldn't make enough milk. At one month my dd hadn't gained any weight, she was 7 oz less than her birth weight... A friend of mine donated breastmilk for a time while I tried to increase my supply. I have pictures of my daughter from that time and I wish I had noticed earlier... She is sickly looking and I didn't see it.

After a very trying 7 weeks of nursing and pumping 24/7 to no avail, I was so exhausted, stressed, and heart broken from the ordeal that I quit nursing and went to formula full-time. I am in the process of preparing now... We are hoping to TTC this summer, with a hopeful HBAC, and I plan on making it to one year with as much of a supply as I can manage.


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## khanni

I believe I have insufficient glandular tissue as well. I tried everything with my last baby, and did not have enough milk. I'm 7 months pregnant now, so have been re-researching, and this is my conclusion.

I'm posting two websites, I think one of which was posted earlier in this thread (it has the pictures). But the other one just made me feel better. I was really made to feel that I had failed, and NOBODY seemed to believe that I couldn't produce enough milk and that I just wasn't trying hard enough (save my LC, midwife, husband, and family). I caught a lot of flack, and I love the last sentence in this, which I'll just quote here:

"Preserving the 'every woman can nurse' myth contributes to perpetuating a simplistic view of lactation and does a disservice to the small percentage of women with primary causes of unsuccessful lactation."

http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...tract/76/5/823
http://www.007b.com/breast_size_breastfeeding.php


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## JANmom13

I don't know anything specifically about this issue but after my 3rd pregnancy I have found calcium supplements (not the chocolate chewy kind with vitamin D but the round white tablets) make a big difference, as does taking B complex. After my 2nd I used Fenugreek and Blessed Thistle. I just didn't like the smell or gagging down pills so I switched. I also eat oatmeal.

I have more of an energy issue, though- working full time with 3 kids age 6 and under. But maybe this could work for you as well...


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## svmaine

There is hope mom's with IGT, tubular and/or hypoplasia







!!! I posted earlier some of my trials and tribulations and do need to correct one thing I said. I did not use Goat's Rhue with DS #1, I took it the last month of pregnancy with DS #3, who was just born in January. I continued with the goat's rhue after the birth along with Domperidone and am now on More Milk Plus and a reduced amount of Dom.

I don't know if the difference is just child #3 or the additional supplements this time, but I actually felt my milk come in about a week after birth, and about a week and a half after his birth during a late night feed I actually heard him gulping







! I'm still getting engorged(FYI my boobs don't get any bigger, just uncomfortably hard), especially if he goes more than 2 hours between feedings, and I've actually seen my milk dribble out of his mouth at a few feedings, again














! Unfortunately I do still need to supplement during the day and since I haven't started pumping yet I don't know how much I'm producing, but I know he's getting so much more of my milk than my other two DS's and that just warms my heart







, again sometimes your body can change for the better, there is hope







.


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## meenajo

Looks like there's not a ton of activity on this board, but I am enjoying reading some of the older stories.

I *think* I might have IGT, though I'm not sure. They don't seem terribly insufficient, but are kind of widly spaced and when you take my large size into account they are disproportionately small. The "obese" pic from the first page looks more like it.

I had so much trouble w/ my daughter and feel like I'm still carrying a lot of baggage around. I had no breast changes during pg, no engorgement when I gave up and when I tried pumping to increase supply, I was lucky if I got enough drops to cover the bottom of the bottle. All this time I've felt like I just didn't try enough to build my supply. I was one of those militant-about-bfeednng-types before dd and I guess it was an important lesson for me to learn.

I was quite depresed about my inability to feed my baby and I have to admit that that's played into our decision to adopt this time around.

So, fast forward 5 years and I'm in the middle of an open adoption. Baby is due in just a few weeks and I'm trying to relactate.

Am I crazy, or what?!

I'm taking tons of herbs/domperidone and even saw some significant breast changes after taking goats rue







but after 6 weeks of pumping around the clock, haven't made a drop. I'm trying not to get discouraged and not giving up. I'm planning on using a SNS with donor milk but am starting to wonder if it's worth the trouble to keep this up if I'm not making any milk









I'm feeling pretty caught up in trying to figure out if it really is IGT or if there might be something else? or if relacation is just tougher than expected? I don't want to go through this again


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## Mimi's mom

Hello!

I know exactly how you feel about bf!
I have IGT and until now that I found this forum I could forgive myself and know, as a fact, that I did enough.

I learned that the most important thing is to LOVE and feed your baby in your own possible way.

I had pd after the first 8 weeks trying to bf my dd. It was so bad that I'm still on therapy... 2 years later. Now that I forgived myself I think I can handle it better.

The only advise that I have for you is to do your best and find what fit your family.









Do your best, use the SNS and do not feel bad about not producing enough milk. ENJOY the baby, hugh him, touch him, kiss him. I know bf can be an obsession (BELIVE ME) but is not the most important part. Babie's need to feel safe and you need to be in your right state of mind to provide it.

Good luck!









I'm also found out that I'm pregnant and knowing that I never be able to produce enough milk for my baby makes me feel sad. I'm planning to use a SNS and see what happens!
Also if someone want to give me some advice what to do to at least have more than 1/2 to 1 oz milk it will be GREAT!

I' so happy to hear there's a little hope for IGT from svmaine!

I just find this site and it is WONDERFUL! Peace of mind and encouraging!
http://www.mobimotherhood.org/MM/article-lms.aspx


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## HeatherWong

Hi All,

This thread helped me back in 2006 when my first child was born and I was bewildered by what was happening. I started a website to share my story and spread the word: http://www.NotEveryoneCanBreastfeed.com

I hope it helps some of you in the same situation.
Heather


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## HeidiC

There is a wonderful support group on Facebook called IGT and Low Milk Supply Support Group...it has been great for me to have a community of women who are going through the same thing I am and to have the information that they give at my fingertips.


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## Dana121212

In the event it's ever helpful to anyone, I just wanted to let you know about a 'program' I've put together for myself, in conjunction with an RE, to address my breastfeeding issues. 

While I have never had trouble conceiving -- I already have one DS and am currently 20 weeks pregnant -- I discovered after giving birth to my first that I have IGT. I found the whole process really demoralizing, not to mention exhausting with the crazy amount of pumping sessions, never getting him to latch, etc. I think the max I ever produced (and this was using plenty of herbs such as blessed thistle and fenugreek, not to mention the max daily dose of Domperidone) was 24 oz/day.

So, I have decided this time around to tackle it as best I can from the outset, while pregnant. 

I first worked with my family doc to get a referral to an RE (again, even though I never had problems ovulating or conceiving). 
I had done a TON of research, and wondered about my progesterone levels, as well as whether I may be insulin resistant. Blood panels came back fine, so she would not put me on metformin. She was, however, willing to prescribe me Prometrium capsules for the duration of my pregnancy. I insert them vaginally every night before bed (three 100mg capsules for total of 300mg).

I also had read a lot about goat's rue. So, since becoming pregnant -- and having done research and concluded I am comortable with the fact that safety of its use during pregnancy hasn't been heavily researched -- I have been taking Motherlove goat's rue herbal capsules, too. I take 4 tablets/day.

Also, in addition to my standard pre-natal vitamin, vitamin D and folic acid, I am taking alfalfa tablets (Jensen brand). I take four, 550mg tablets/day.

I take all pills first thing in the morning before I shower, and don't have anything to eat or drink until approx one hour afterward.

Finally, I purchased and have been applying progesterone gel from Supplement Spot. I put about a dime's worth on each breast every morning when I get out of the shower, let it absorb and then get dressed.

My last step will be to add some d-chiro inositol that I ordered from Chiral Balance. Thinking I will take 600mg/day, based on my weight. 

I plan on continuing to use the progesterone suppositories and progesterone gel up until I'm about 37 weeks, at which point I will stop cold turkey or taper.

As for the supplements, I plan to continue taking them all through to birth and likely thereafter, depending on the supply I can establish. I have a feeling I will find myself filling my Domperidone again, too, even though I didn't notice a big difference from it with my first born. 

You may think I'm crazy (!!), but I wanted to put the info out there as a bit of a guinea pig for you in case it helps me, and in turn, could help even one fellow mom. I will obviously post back to the board to update once my LO is born.

At present, I can say that my breasts (normally a 34A) are fuller and somewhat more round than they were in my last pregnancy. Likely the biggest they have ever been in my life (even when I was 15 lbs heavies). I am about a 36B now. 

Also, it may be worth noting that I have basically no other PCOS symptoms other than these IGT / tuberous / hypoplastic breasts. I was about 15 pounds heavier in my teen years, but for the past 10 years, I have been 5'4 and 120 pounds. I definitely have narrow hips and would never be described as curvy, but am often described as petite. When I was heavier, my breasts were a big bigger (but not much), and it was obvioulsy fat tissue and not glandular, milk-making tissue.

I'll be sure to post back to let you know whether any of the above winds up working for me.


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## jenniferanbh

Dana121212 said:


> In the event it's ever helpful to anyone, I just wanted to let you know about a 'program' I've put together for myself, in conjunction with an RE, to address my breastfeeding issues.
> 
> While I have never had trouble conceiving -- I already have one DS and am currently 20 weeks pregnant -- I discovered after giving birth to my first that I have IGT. I found the whole process really demoralizing, not to mention exhausting with the crazy amount of pumping sessions, never getting him to latch, etc. I think the max I ever produced (and this was using plenty of herbs such as blessed thistle and fenugreek, not to mention the max daily dose of Domperidone) was 24 oz/day.
> 
> So, I have decided this time around to tackle it as best I can from the outset, while pregnant.
> 
> I first worked with my family doc to get a referral to an RE (again, even though I never had problems ovulating or conceiving).
> I had done a TON of research, and wondered about my progesterone levels, as well as whether I may be insulin resistant. Blood panels came back fine, so she would not put me on metformin. She was, however, willing to prescribe me Prometrium capsules for the duration of my pregnancy. I insert them vaginally every night before bed (three 100mg capsules for total of 300mg).
> 
> I also had read a lot about goat's rue. So, since becoming pregnant -- and having done research and concluded I am comortable with the fact that safety of its use during pregnancy hasn't been heavily researched -- I have been taking Motherlove goat's rue herbal capsules, too. I take 4 tablets/day.
> 
> Also, in addition to my standard pre-natal vitamin, vitamin D and folic acid, I am taking alfalfa tablets (Jensen brand). I take four, 550mg tablets/day.
> 
> I take all pills first thing in the morning before I shower, and don't have anything to eat or drink until approx one hour afterward.
> 
> Finally, I purchased and have been applying progesterone gel from Supplement Spot. I put about a dime's worth on each breast every morning when I get out of the shower, let it absorb and then get dressed.
> 
> My last step will be to add some d-chiro inositol that I ordered from Chiral Balance. Thinking I will take 600mg/day, based on my weight.
> 
> I plan on continuing to use the progesterone suppositories and progesterone gel up until I'm about 37 weeks, at which point I will stop cold turkey or taper.
> 
> As for the supplements, I plan to continue taking them all through to birth and likely thereafter, depending on the supply I can establish. I have a feeling I will find myself filling my Domperidone again, too, even though I didn't notice a big difference from it with my first born.
> 
> You may think I'm crazy (!!), but I wanted to put the info out there as a bit of a guinea pig for you in case it helps me, and in turn, could help even one fellow mom. I will obviously post back to the board to update once my LO is born.
> 
> At present, I can say that my breasts (normally a 34A) are fuller and somewhat more round than they were in my last pregnancy. Likely the biggest they have ever been in my life (even when I was 15 lbs heavies). I am about a 36B now.
> 
> Also, it may be worth noting that I have basically no other PCOS symptoms other than these IGT / tuberous / hypoplastic breasts. I was about 15 pounds heavier in my teen years, but for the past 10 years, I have been 5'4 and 120 pounds. I definitely have narrow hips and would never be described as curvy, but am often described as petite. When I was heavier, my breasts were a big bigger (but not much), and it was obvioulsy fat tissue and not glandular, milk-making tissue.
> 
> I'll be sure to post back to let you know whether any of the above winds up working for me.


I am curious what your sources were for the progesterone? Are there studies saying that it is a lack of progesterone that leads to insufficient milk? I would love to see them.


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