# "Forced apologies"



## mrsfatty (Dec 21, 2004)

Enlighten me.

I've read, quite frequently, that many of you don't "force apologies"--what does that look like? How does that play out? What consequences does your child have for their actions? Are they every remorseful? Do they ever apologize? What do YOU do in a situation that involves someone besides yourself (like other children)?

I'm seriously confused--cause it FEELS like (and I'm SO willing to be wrong) that it teaches kids they don't have to be responsible for their actions...but maybe my imagination of what this looks like is totally wrong.

Point me in the direction of resources or share your experiences! Thanks!







:


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

IMO it is meaningless to make a child SAY they're sorry if they're not sorry. Doesn't teach anything I'm interested in teaching.

I'm much more interested in teaching empathy so that my child will actually BE sorry if they do something that hurts someone else. So we talk a lot about how the other person feels when something goes wrong. Sometimes she gets it, sometimes she doesn't. But little by little she is moving to a place where she can put herself in someone else's shoes without prompting.

A forced apology is meaningless. IMO it's much worse to have a glaring, obviously NOT sorry kid mumble "sorry" than just to move on at that time.

-Angela


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## Magella (Apr 5, 2004)

I'd like to start with a quote:

Quote:

We teach children to apologize by saying "I'm sorry," to children and to each other.

When children know they have done something wrong, they experience a loss of dignity. Insisting that children say they are sorry increases their loss of dignity. Losing dignity is an emotional hurt. When children hurt they cannot think well. When they cannot think well, they cannot learn. Children need our support to regain their dignity and *to figure out a way to make amends. Instead of insisting children say sorry, we help them think of a way to make amends.* (Getting a cold cloth for a boo-boo, gluing a broken toy.)

From _Connection Parenting_ by Pam Leo
I think the key is to focus on how the child's actions affected the other person, and to emphasize making amends. That may or may not include apology. I do not think that insisting that a child apologize actually, by itself, teaches a child to take responsibility for their actions. It's the pointing out how the child's actions affected others, how it affected the child himself, the guidance regarding what to do instead and help in expressing their feelings/needs more effectively, and the focus on making amends (which may include apologizing, I think it's good to tell kids that others appreciate hearing our apologies when we sincerely feel sorry) that lead to a child's learning about taking responsibility for one's own actions. It's also the modeling of apologies and amends-making (by apologizing to others and making amends in front of our children, and apologizing and making amends to our children) that teaches taking responsibility, remorse, compassion, apologizing. At least, that is my personal experience.

It has been my experience that the less punishment a child receives, the less a child is forced to apologize, and the more compassionately a child is treated and guided (especially when they have done something wrong), the more room there is within the child to experience remorse, to empathize with others, to take responsibility, to make changes, to make amends, and to extend compassion to others. (eta I mean this sentence to convey active, involved, proactive parenting with age-appropriate guidance geared toward the individual needs and abilities of the child. Not overly-permissive, passive parenting.)


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## anne+arun (Feb 13, 2007)

I appreciate you asking this question so openly given it seems to go against what your current logic circuits are telling you









Quote:


Originally Posted by *mrsfatty* 
I'm seriously confused--cause it FEELS like (and I'm SO willing to be wrong) that it teaches kids they don't have to be responsible for their actions...but maybe my imagination of what this looks like is totally wrong.

Its interesting because if i were to force my kids to apologize then it would seem to me that _*I*_ was the one taking responsibility for their actions









if dd (6yrs) does something that upsets another child, I would first ensure that the other child is being cared for/ attended too. I would sometimes apologize for what has happened if appropriate.

Then when my attention turns to dd i would (on a good day):
- listen & be compassionate in trying to work out what is happening for her and what was behind her action
- if i felt that she was unaware or unappreciative of it, I would explain the implication of her action on the other child or anyone else including me for that matter (i would try to be as factual as possible and avoid trying to guilt trip... the point here is to assist in connecting the dots between her action and consequences for others)

Basically my aim in these moments is to connect with my dd and specifically:
- be on her side to help her be the best that she can be;
- to help foster her self awareness about how what she does impacts on others;
- to help foster her self awareness about why she might behaving that way;
- to assist her in developing tools and strategies to move forward (of which apologies are a part)

I try to come from the perspective that children want to get along, they want to live in joy together and within themselves. Basically i give everyone the benefit of the doubt and try to attribute the best possible motives to what is going on (difficult sometimes).

In the mean time i try to model and "walk the talk". If i do/ say something that hurts someone (my kids or others) i try to acknowledge the way they feel and apologize as soon as possible.

having done this (albeit remarkably imperfectly and inconsistently) for over two years now, i find that dd generally apologizes of her own initiative. The apologies will often happen sometime after the incident but when they come I know that there is a real sincerity and meaning there... dare i say that there is a true responsibility for her actions.

arun


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

If someone does something to me, then gives me a fake "i'm sorry". I don't feel any better. In fact, it just makes me bitter.

I only want sincere apologies, or nothing.

Even an "Are you O.K?" would be better than a forced apology.

I think kids are the same way. It feels better if the person is sorry, and didn't mean to do it. Or they wish they hadn't done that. Or meant to do it, but it didn't play out the way they thought.

Today, I took the kids to the park. There was a group of BIG grade schoolers from a big daycare center in the area. The teacher was mean and cranky. An older boy (about 11) was being cocky and thought he was cool. He threw the football at the back of the teacher's head. (I sorta snickered a little under my breath)

He was MORTIFIED. He said "sorry" kinda reluctantly to her. Then he gathered his pride and said "I meant to throw the ball, but I didn't mean for it to hit you.. I guess I wasn't thinking". I was very impressed. _*but, he totally meant to hit her with it*_

Edited to add, I ALWAYS made my dd "fix" what she had done. That might have been just a hug, or that might have meant that she got a bag of ice and a towel and sat with the injured child until he felt better. She never got completely away with hurting another child. She went through a bad time when she was an absolute bully. But, by age five, she was one of the most compassionate, responsible kids in her class.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

The way to take responsibility for doing something wrong is not by saying "I'm sorry." People take responsibility for doing something hurtful first by stopping whatever action is hurtful, and then following that up by helping make up for the hurt caused. I think there is a huge problem in our society, shown way up to elected officials, where they'll say they've taken responsibility for their actions, but they don't actually DO anything to make things better or even stop doing whatever hurtful thing they did. Saying "Sorry" isn't taking responsibility at all, and we as a society need to stop telling people it is.

/soapbox (LOL)


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

When dd was younger (say 3-4), she would just refuse to say she was sorry. Seriously, it was be a HUGE battle. So I stopped trying, and just apologized in her place if she did not. I would always insist that she "check in" with a hurt peer, so that she did *something* that acknowledged the pain she had caused.

How it generally played out is this:

A bit later (maybe 30 minutes later if with friends, or up to a couple hours later if home with me), she would honestly apologize with feeling. The heartfelt apologies would pretty much make up for the delay









Now that she is older (7), she's picked up on our society's "rule" that we apologize, and it makes the other person feel better. It is no longer an issue.


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## NoraB (Dec 10, 2002)

I really hate the way forced apologies seem to make kids think that saying "sorry" is enough to fix a situation. DH tends to be fond of making the kids say sorry. I prefer to focus on how they can make amends. "Sorry" will come when they're old enough and it will be sincere. My DD tends to use "sorry" in a knee jerk fashion though b/c DH has usually insisted on it. It's still something we're working on between us. Again though, I think the words mean nothing if they're not sincere and the words don't fix a mess, injury, offense, etc for the most part. If the offender can DO something to help the person offended, that means more than words to me. KWIM?


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## Bailey (Sep 23, 2005)

Just wanted to add that my 2 1/2 year old does apologize sometimes! Not all of the time but some of the time. And he's not that old. So much of it is a about modeling. I make an effort to say I'm sorry alot and he picks it up.


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## treemom2 (Oct 1, 2003)

I do not force apologies. However, I do ask my child if they know what happened and if they caused an injury I will point out the injury and the other child's reaction, "Wow, do you see the scratch on her face; she's crying so hard it must really hurt, what do you think we should do?" Then DC will usually give the other child a hug, offer to get something like ice or a bandaid, or my child will just show that they feel really bad about what happened. If my child does not apologize, I go ahead and do it; "X, I'm so sorry DC hurt you, can I get you something (ice, bandaid, etc)." I then will talk with DC later about what happened and things we can do differently next time so no child gets hurt.


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## NoraB (Dec 10, 2002)

I agree w/ pointing out the effect on the other person. We do that too, even w/ our 2yo. He doesn't seem to get it yet, but I know he will.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sledg* 
It has been my experience that the less punishment a child receives, the less a child is forced to apologize, and the more compassionately a child is treated and guided (especially when they have done something wrong), the more room there is within the child to experience remorse, to empathize with others, to take responsibility, to make changes, to make amends, and to extend compassion to others. (eta I mean this sentence to convey active, involved, proactive parenting with age-appropriate guidance geared toward the individual needs and abilities of the child. Not overly-permissive, passive parenting.)

This is beautifully said and I agree 100%. I feel acutely inadequate when I read it, however, because when my older beloved has just snatched my younger beloved's toy out of her pudgy little hands, and shoved her down to boot, it is extremely hard to remember to provide "age-appropriate guidance geared toward the individual needs and abilities of the child." I mainly just want to yell "What is the matter with you?" and send him to his room.









Despite this, I have never been a fan of the forced apology. IMO it just teaches the child to be insincere. I do offer apology myself, though, if I feel one is necessary and my child refuses. And I am not above reminding the child that "Your friend might feel better if you apologize", etc. But I think it's insulting to the injured party to force a fake apology.


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## suprgrl (Sep 27, 2005)

In our experience it is obvious that DS1 (28 mo) feels bad when he hurts someone else. I can tell he feels bad for hurting others because he hides, or tries to distract from the uncomfortable situation by trying to make me laugh. That is his way of trying to diffuse things. He is not trying to get out of "trouble". He just needs to be shown appropriate ways to help others when they get hurt.

We have never done time oor forced apologies. What we do is explain to DS1 that so and so got hurt "Look, your brother is crying, he got hurt" as I make sure the baby is okay. Then I say "what can we do to help him feel better?" Usually DS1 is hiding somewhere feeling bad. So I may encourage him by letting him know we can work this out. "I know you feel bad, I want to help us all feel better". I make suggestions like "We could give the baby kisses to help him feel better, or a hug, or tell him we are sorry" By this time DS1 is usually out of his hiding place and helping me hug and kiss the baby.

If we are out somewhere and this happens with a kid we don't really know I would take DS aside and talk with him about how the other kid might feel. Then I would suggest that we go _together_ to help the kid feel better. He is too scared and intimidated to do it alone, and I think that is way to much to expect at his age. He needs someone to show him what to do. Scary things are easier with a friend.

There are lots of times where he takes it upon himself to give someone a hug when they are sad. It is harder for him to do that, though, when he feels guilty when he is the one who did the hurting. It is obviously uncomfortable for him. A lot of times if I show him that he hurt someone he will go on his own to make it better. It may just take longer if I don't push it. But within a few minutes, after standing back and watching, he will go try to make things right by giving the other kid a toy, or trying to make them smile in some way.

I hope this all came out in a way that makes sense...as usual I am naking.


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## sdm1024 (Sep 4, 2006)

Quote:

So we talk a lot about how the other person feels when something goes wrong. Sometimes she gets it, sometimes she doesn't. But little by little she is moving to a place where she can put herself in someone else's shoes without prompting.
I admit, that sometimes I fall into the "forced apology" trap - especally when around my IL's or another parent. It's hard when, as a parent, you are expected to make your child say that they are "sorry". However, I make a big effort to try to explain that "hitting/stepping on/accidents hurt people....is your friend ok?" and then you see the light bulb go off in the little kids head!

I agree that forced apologies accomplish nothing. If someone isn't sorry, they aren't sorry. And with a child, sometimes they simply aren't. They may have wronged a playmate, but in thier mind it might feel ok because that playmate wronged them earlier.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sdm1024* 
I agree that forced apologies accomplish nothing.

We didn't do forced apologies, because it set up a huge battle. But I don't think it is true that forced apologies accomplish nothing. I think receiving an apology, sincere or not, can make the injured party feel better. There is a wide range of "forced" and "insincere", of course....and I'm not talking about the "apologize or get spanked" and "I'm sorry, ok!







" end of the spectrum......I am talking about the "We apologize when we hurt someone. You need to say you are sorry." and "I'm sorry.







" middle of the spectrum. I've seen that kind of "insincere" (because the young child doesn't really "get" it) help the injured child lots of times--although my own dd would never say it


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## cinnamongrrl (Dec 30, 2007)

I don't like the way forced apologies usually work out. We used to play with a little girl who would do unpleasant things to the other children, then her mom would insist she apologize, and she would say in a totally insincere, sing-song voice, "Sooo-rrrry!" and trot off. And then go right back to being mean to the other kids. It made me furious. Certain kids quickly learn that they can do whatever they like as long as they apologize afterwards. And our prisons are full of people who swear they'll "never do it again", right?

But...I do ask my own kids to apologize to each other. I ask them to consider how their sibling is feeling when they do something hurtful to them. Sometimes it takes a while before they process the feelings and are able to empathize, but eventually they can sincerely express caring for their sibling. To me, an apology is about truly recognizing the other person's feelings, letting them be seen and heard and respected as a loved one. If my husband accidentally dropped something heavy on my foot and hurt me, I would certainly expect him to demonstrate that he feels for me. I think there is a difference between shaming a child into apologizing, and teaching them to walk in someone else's shoes and affirm the other's feelings through an apology.

There is also something I've noticed about some adults who, as children, were shamed into making apologies OR were never made to apologize. Both types often grow up to be adults who will NOT admit that they are ever wrong. Either they are so filled with shame when they make mistakes, that they cannot bear to lose face and admit they did something wrong. Or, the ones who were never made to think they did something wrong tend to have no conscience, to think that they simply don't make mistakes or have to answer to anyone.

I don't want to shame my kids when they hurt someone, but I do want them to realize that they are human, that humans make mistakes and bad choices sometimes, and that they can face up to their mistakes with dignity and self respect. And make a plan to make ammends or resolve their mistake, if possible.


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## Cujobunny (Aug 16, 2006)

I never force apologies but I'm sure to apologize myself if I have done something that had an effect I wasn't hoping for. If my ds hurts me by accident he sometimes says he's sorry, sometimes he says "are you ok?" and honestly I often would rather have that.


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## mom2tatum (Mar 14, 2007)

just want to say this is a great thread. There is a lot to learn here. Thanks for posting, OP. Helped me gain even more perspective as well.


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## NoraB (Dec 10, 2002)

I think it's possible to suggest a child apologize w/o making it forced. I have told both DD and DS that saying they are sorry to another might help that other feel a little better (after pointing out how hurt or uspet the other is). I do think asking another for forgiveness is very important, even if you do not think you are in the wrong and even if you stand behind the action...one can be sorry for the effect the action had. KWIM. I think a lot of folk have problems b/c they don't know how to admit they are wrong and/or ask for forgiveness. My feelings about forced apolgies still stand of course. I think that sincere apologies, like polite "please" and "thank yous" come more from modeling than by insisting. My DS tends to be very polite w/ "please" and "thank you" and we've never insisted on it. We just model. Likewise, when anybody is hurt, he tends to get concerned and ask if the other person is okay. Usually, he'll offer a hug and kiss too.

Now, if only I could convince my DH to take the "please" and "thank yous" as evidence that the children will indeed learn to apologize and make amends w/o our forcing the issue. If we model the behaviour, they will learn. To be fair, I think it's more of a knee jerk reaction rather than something he thinks out each time he says it.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I haven't read any replies yet, but here's my $0.02.

First of all, I don't make my kids say "I'm sorry", because I've been on the receiving end of too many forced apologies and they make me feel like crap. If somebody gets off on hurting my feelings, making him/her apologize doesn't change them, but it does affect how I feel about it. I feel worse. Hearing "I'm sorry" from someone who doesn't mean it doesn't make me feel any better.

I also don't make my kids say "I'm sorry", because I've known too many people who think it's a get out of jail free card. They just have to say "I'm sorry" and whatever they've done is wiped away, and they can start all over again with being nasty, rude, inconsiderate or whatever. The phrase is just so meaningless from so many people.

Mostly, though - I want my kids to _want_ to say "I'm sorry" because they _are_ sorry. I want my kids to realize that they've hurt someone's feelings or caused pain or inconvenience. I want them to own that. If dd hurts ds2 (it happens - she's pretty volatile), I point out that he's crying and talk to her about _why_ he's crying and how she feels about that. Quite often, she'll decide on her own to give him a kiss and say, "sorry, Evan", because she realizes that he's sad. That's what I want to nurture in dd. I have no interest in nurturing the belief that it's okay to treat people like crap, as long as you say "I'm sorry" afterwards. IMO, that's all that forced apologies teach anyone.


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## meesa143 (Jul 3, 2007)

I totally agree with "making amends." I've also read about asking "curiosity questions."

Example: "Why is Mary crying?" "What do you think you could do to make her feel better?"

DD will usually apologize or tell me they could take turns with the toy she took away, etc.
They also learn through example. If they see you apologize, they are more likely to do so themselves, imo. I really think it is possible to teach them to apologize without forcing them to.


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## cyndimo (Jul 20, 2005)

I have to admit, we do "forced" apologies...
I see it as part of the lesson on manners - there are certain rules for things we say in certain cirucmstances, whether we really mean it or not.
When our body makes a noise (ie burp or fart), we say excuse me.
When we do something that makes someone say "ow", we say I'm sorry. (It doesn't matter if it was on purpose or on accident. So many older kids balk at saying sorry "because it was an accident")
I know that at 2.5yo, it's too young to expect real empathy. But I do think that at this age, he can understand that he needs to acknowledge that it was his action that caused the "ow".
We are now working on the rule that says if you are about to do something that you know will make someone say ow, don't do it.
FWIW - the only people he seems to practice the "sorry" rule and it's limits on are me and DP.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cinnamongrrl* 

There is also something I've noticed about some adults who, as children, were shamed into making apologies OR were never made to apologize. Both types often grow up to be adults who will NOT admit that they are ever wrong. Either they are so filled with shame when they make mistakes, that they cannot bear to lose face and admit they did something wrong. Or, the ones who were never made to think they did something wrong tend to have no conscience, to think that they simply don't make mistakes or have to answer to anyone.

It sounds like you're conflating "never made to apologize" with "never apologized," and I think they're two entirely different things. I'm another who never _made_ my child apologize, but she certainly _does_ apologize, and always has... honestly, she has nicer manners than I do. I think modeling had something to do with it, and also empathizing...

I am concerned about the issue of over-apologizing, which is especially a problem for women, IME. I've known quite a few women who apologize automatically, even for things that weren't their responsibility at all. Some men in our society try to blame problems on women, and rather than automatically apologizing, I think women need to think about what happened and decide if an apology is truly in order - and if not, they need to stand up for themselves.

Dar


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## Jessy1019 (Aug 6, 2006)

I don't force apologies with my kids. After all, I only say I'm sorry when I actually am. There are plenty of times when I'm not sorry for something I've said or done, and I will not apologize . . . so why should my kids do it if they aren't sorry?

My five year old took a long time to start apologizing on her own, but now she does -- when she is sorry. Regardless, if she intentionally hurts someone, she has to take a break from being around people until she can be kind again . . . that's the logical consequence. The natural consequence is that sometimes, the other person doesn't want to be around her for awhile (and it could happen that they might never want to be around her again).

My two year old doesn't say sorry yet, but he is more empathetic than his sister ever was, and he will give hugs if you tell him that he hurt someone. I have a feeling he will start using the words when he has them.


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## ~Nikki~ (Aug 4, 2004)

Interesting thread. I've personally always lumped "I'm sorry" in with the general manners category, like please, thank you, and excuse me. But this thread has me thinking. My daughter has been empathetic practically from birth. She's always very concerned when she does something that hurts another person. When her brother came along, it threw a wrench in things. He's so different. I never thought that empathy was something to be taught, but you guys are giving me hope for my son.







He doesn't apologize. He doesn't seem to have remorse when he pulls my hair or hits his sister. Mind you he's only two, but I know my daughter was apologizing at his age, so I wasn't sure how to deal with it.

I _have_ been forcing apologies between them when they fight, but maybe this isn't the best approach. It certainly hasn't accomplished anything with my son. He'll say a quick "I'm sorry", and then immediatly bite his sister again.


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## Ironica (Sep 11, 2005)

We don't force apologies (or any other verbal habits). It's all about modeling, and now that he's mostly "got it," prompting.

Does he apologize? Definitely. I remember getting on a crowded bus one time with my toddler DS on my back in the Ergo, and as we worked our way down the aisle to somewhere we could stand comfortably, this little tiny voice on my back was saying "Excuse me... I'm sowwy... excuse me... I'm sowwy..." as we jostled past. ;-) When he started to "get" that "I'm sorry" was a response to bumping into something, he'd apologize to the sidewalk after falling and skinning his knee! It took a while for him to get the context, but eventually, he understood how it worked.

Most recently, I had it confirmed that he really had the concept when he fell asleep nursing on my lap (a very rare event these days), and as he drifted off, he clamped down a little with his teeth and I gasped in pain. My ASLEEP three-year-old mumbled "I'm sorry." ;-)

When he's wrapped up in things, he doesn't always notice that he bumped into someone or stepped on someone's toes or whatever. I point it out to him, so that he can gain more self-awareness, and then ask him, "Do you want to/can you apologize?" at which point he pretty much always does. If he notices that he accidentally bumped into someone, he will turn around and say "Oops sorry!" immediately.

Now, if he does something more deliberate, he's less likely to spontaneously apologize. That's when we get into the whole conversation about how our actions affect other people, and we talk about problem-solving and making amends. I don't often even get into the verbal apologies for those situations, and instead focus on addressing the issue that led to the conflict.

Another thing that I see as related... my son is a pretty empathetic kid, and aware of other people's feelings and distress. I think that the whole issue of apologizing and making amends is part of a larger category of teaching appropriate responses to others' negative feelings. So, if someone's feeling sad or in pain or whatever for reasons that have NOTHING to do with him, and he's noticing for whatever reason, we try to give him an appropriate action to help comfort the person. For example, we were at Disneyland with a group of friends, all adults but our son, and one (C) developed a migraine headache. Now, earlier in the day, C had been interacting with DS a lot, and DS had gotten in the habit of pointing stuff out to him and asking for feedback. ;-) So we had to explain that C didn't really feel like talking because his head hurt very bad. DS seemed kind of distressed by this, so we suggested he might give C a hug to help him feel better, which he thought was a great idea. A couple days later, our friend told me that was the highlight of the whole day for him... so it worked for everyone!


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## mamamelia (Apr 14, 2005)

i don't do forced apologies.

here is what i usually do:

me: what happened? (very calm voice, actually calm voice all the way through)
dd: i pushed her, i snatched it out of her hand etc...
me: why?
dd: because she was in my way, i wanted to play with the toy etc...
me: do you know that you've hurt her? that's why she is crying. when you pushed her she fell over and hurt her leg.
dd: oh
me: if she is in your way, you need to ask her to move nicely and i model it out "can you please move so that i can...." or if it was the toy scenario, i remind her that she can either ask the child if she can have it or she needs to wait till that child is finished playing with the toy as she would not like it if the toy was snatched out of her hand.
dd: ok
me: can you please help the girl back up? or give her the toy back? i think it will make her feel better.
dd: *helps child* usually spontaneously says something like "i'm sorry. are you ok? let me give you a hug."










my children have lovely manners and it's always complimented on. i am a big believer in manners and i am also a big believer in manners being modelled and taught through modelling exclusively. my 3yo will spontaneously say "please, thank you (very, very much!) and your welcome". even our 15mo said thanks to me the other day and now says please when she wants something. forcing does nothing. i did forced apologies as a child. sometimes i wanted to belt the child instead of saying sorry to them... i never felt heard in those instances and it was sooo unfair that *i* had to say sorry. won't be doing that in this generation of my family.


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## Swirly (May 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
IMO it is meaningless to make a child SAY they're sorry if they're not sorry. Doesn't teach anything I'm interested in teaching.

I'm much more interested in teaching empathy so that my child will actually BE sorry if they do something that hurts someone else. So we talk a lot about how the other person feels when something goes wrong. Sometimes she gets it, sometimes she doesn't. But little by little she is moving to a place where she can put herself in someone else's shoes without prompting.

A forced apology is meaningless. IMO it's much worse to have a glaring, obviously NOT sorry kid mumble "sorry" than just to move on at that time.

-Angela

As usual, Angela captured my thoughts better than I could have done.

Also, I find forced apologies to be shaming.

I model apologizing to my daughter by being swift to do so when I wrong her or someone else. No one ever apologized to *me* when I was a child, and I think it made it hard for me to learn to do so myself. So I hope that by apologizing to dd when I lose my cool or yell that she will learn it is okay to admit our mistakes and that this helps us heal and move on from them.


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## Nanu (Nov 26, 2007)

Children learn to apologize by observing parents and siblings. My two-year-old already says "I'm sorry" when she hurts someone accidentally, and we never made her do that. She just sees that that's what we do.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I'm one of those people who always falls over backwards with the "I'm sorry" 's. I think sometimes this is self-effacing and detrimental to myself.

What this means is that, when my child has hurt someone in the usual tussle that young 'uns can get into, I feel this overwhelming need to apologize. I have in the past been hard on my DD about apologizing but then I realized that it was my own issue.

I don't need to apologize for my child's behaviour. But some wise friends pointed out that I can apologize in a genuine way. Example "I'm sorry your feelings got hurt" or "I'm real sorry you got hurt like that". It has helped me feel better by acknowledging the situation without going overboard and apologizing for my child's actions.

It also serves as good modelling for the kids, which I believe in 100%. My kids don't issue automatic pleases and thankyous. Sometimes I cringe when I think they're leaving a bad impression, but so many many other times they just spontaneously erupt with such genuine gratitude and thanks to people that it makes my heart swell...genuine apologies are the same in my books.

Oh, we do talk often however of what apologies are, and how they affect other people.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I don't force apologies, but I do express my disappointment to my daughter for her actions, I point out how she made the other child feel by her actions, and I also tell her that I hope she will apologize or find another way to make the child feel better. The consequences depend on the situation. If she is hurting other children then we would leave after one of us apologized to the child. I would also have her write an apology letter by writing the words the best she could and drawing a picture of how she will behave in the future. For other things like not sharing, unkind words, taking a toy, etc... I would have her apologize and make amends.


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## Maggirayne (Mar 6, 2007)

I don't recall if we had to do forced apologies, I do remember my mom taught us to say, "I apologize for knocking you over, etc." And the other person said, "I accept your apology." So, yeah, maybe it was sometimes forced, but more often modeled for us, that was the form. But the offender had to own what they had done and the hurt person had to acknowledge the apology. As we got older, 7 and on, we would apologize w/o prompting.

I think I will use that wording or "I'm sorry for ___." and include the what can you do to help/make it better?


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

Thanks for what you said, Dar.

I'm another 'no forcing apologies' mama.
i wanted to add that the main way I teach spologies, and all the social conventions, is by modelling them.
I make sure I always apologise to DD if it's appropriate. Like if I accidentally bump her, or lose my temper and shout, I'll apologise for it.
if DD does something to another kid, and it seems really appropriate, I will apologise for her.
eg, DD snatches something from another kid and runs off, and I can see that she's not in a mood to talk about it that immediate moment, I will say to the other kid somehting like "I'm sorry [dd] snatched that from you, it wasn't very nice. It looks like she's feeling a bit frustrated/ tired/ etc".

That way, I'm not apologising to the kid for myself, or even on behalf of DD, I'm just sorry that it happened and the kid is upset. the kid (or whoever) gets the apology they expect, DD isn't losing more dignity by being forced to apologise, she isn't being forced to LIE by making an apology she doesn't feel, and it's modeling apologies for DD (and the other kid).

Same for thankyous. If we're in a situation where a "thankyou" would be appropriate under standard conventions, eg, the librarian gives DD a stamp, *I* will address the person and say thankyou. That way, the person gets the thankyou they expect, DD gets the 'thankyou' thing modeled, and no forcing is involved.


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## lioralourie (Aug 22, 2004)

I'm a no forcing mama, my husband "reminds them" but has never downright forced them except a couple of times. They're good kids, they want to please, but...

They have learned to be insincere apologizers....and it drives me crazy.

At times it does seem sincere and it's easy to spot which is which--you know what I mean.

It takes a few weeks of not being "reminded" by daddy, but I've heard real touching apologies, and they are...well, do you know the Yiddish word Nachas? I have lots and lots of Nachas from my kids when they do the right thing ON THEIR OWN.

Insincerity, IMO has no place in a family (that's a prob my hubby and I have on a larger scale... he's really the gentle sweet, but ultimately an actor...I'm a hotheaded biotch but sincerely warm too! but that's a whole nother thread)


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## boheime (Oct 25, 2005)

We model and treat each other (kids included) with respect. Our children picked up on this at an early age and would sign thank you, please, you're welcome, and sorry before they were speaking. We have never prompted or forced. They do these things genuinely. Honesty is a big thing for me. Honest feelings is included in that.


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## mrsfatty (Dec 21, 2004)

I am still reading and soaking up all the input--thank you for sharing...any more input would be awesome...


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## laoxinat (Sep 17, 2007)

To me a forced apology is an oxymoron. If it's forced, it can't be a true apology, and if a child is ready and emotionally capable of feeling remorse, apologies will come naturally. Of course we want to model kindness and personal responsibility. And I do remember occasions when DS was being truly putrid (in others' eyes) when I acknowledged his behavior and the other child's feelings. I did not apologize for him, because I believed that felt to him like absolution, and didn't add to his understanding or to his growing ability to empathize. But I instinctively knew that this very strong willed and self assured little person would some day internalize a feeling of pro-social desire to not be a PITA. Not that doubt did not creep in heh heh, but I remembered some wonderful guidance, which was, never forget you are raising a man, not a boy. IOWs, parent for the long term, because the limitations inherent in a child's maturity, etc, mean there are going to be a number of things they cannot grasp just yet. Being mad or punitive about these things, to me is like being mad that they are _still so short_ (in stature, that is). Of course, discerning between what they truly do not understand and what they just don't _want_ to be responsible for yet is tricky indeed.


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laoxinat* 
Of course, discerning between what they truly do not understand and what they just don't _want_ to be responsible for yet is tricky indeed.

I think it goes further than this. just because a child understands something on one day, it doesn't mean they understand it tomorrow, or in a parallel, but different situation. Just because they understood that they feel remorse for snatching the ball from baby brother, and apologise for that, doesn't mean they feel and act the same way when they snatch the doll from cousin Jimmy the nest day. This is getting into abstract thinking; something kids develop over time.

IMO, it's unreasonable to expect children to to everything all the time, once they've shown they can do it once.
Just because DD managed to get her dress on all by herself once doesn't mean she is now able to dress herself.
It would be like telling a piano student that they need to play at their absolute best 100% of the time. If they managed to play some difficult piece correctly once, it doesn't mean they're ready for a concert, and can play it at that same proficiency every time thereafter.
Like everything, life takes a little practice


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## laoxinat (Sep 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majikfaerie* 
I think it goes further than this. just because a child understands something on one day, it doesn't mean they understand it tomorrow, or in a parallel, but different situation. Just because they understood that they feel remorse for snatching the ball from baby brother, and apologise for that, doesn't mean they feel and act the same way when they snatch the doll from cousin Jimmy the nest day. This is getting into abstract thinking; something kids develop over time.

IMO, it's unreasonable to expect children to to everything all the time, once they've shown they can do it once.
Just because DD managed to get her dress on all by herself once doesn't mean she is now able to dress herself.
It would be like telling a piano student that they need to play at their absolute best 100% of the time. If they managed to play some difficult piece correctly once, it doesn't mean they're ready for a concert, and can play it at that same proficiency every time thereafter.
Like everything, life takes a little practice









Beautifully put! ITA! OT warning! Gosh, MF, have you been away or am I just







: ? Your posts SO rock!


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## valgal (Feb 8, 2007)

I won't speculate what I would do or wouldn't do as my kids are not toddlers or preschoolers anymore. But I do think it would be worthy of people's time to read some of the theorists on morale development (Kohlberg) and on cognitive development (Piaget) before attaching adult thought and values to kids actions of apology.

That being said, it might be worthy to consider if one doesn't encourage or enforce an apology for a wrongdoing in a kid who presently doesn't feel remorse (and most likely won't due to their developmental capabilities) however will they learn appropriate social behavior?

And most often a kid won't feel remorse even if they can understand their behavior was wrong and warrants an apology. (Again a very development dependent thing) If we don't hold them accountable for doing the right thing in a time when they developmentally won't do it on their own (Kohlberg's moral development theory) again how will the learn the appropriate social behavior.

Bottom line, until kids are capable of understanding the appropriate social action at the highest level of morale development, we as adults must be creative in compelling them to do so.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *valgal* 
That being said, it might be worthy to consider if one doesn't encourage or enforce an apology for a wrongdoing in a kid who presently doesn't feel remorse (and most likely won't due to their developmental capabilities) however will they learn appropriate social behavior?

And most often a kid won't feel remorse even if they can understand their behavior was wrong and warrants an apology. (Again a very development dependent thing) If we don't hold them accountable for doing the right thing in a time when they developmentally won't do it on their own (Kohlberg's moral development theory) again how will the learn the appropriate social behavior.

They'll learn by having that behaviour modelled. IMO, the question doesn't arise with respect to forced apologies, because I don't think that apologizing when you don't mean it is appropriate social behaviour. I realize it's widespread, but I don't think it's appropriate. Every time I was on the receiving end of a forced apology, I felt _worse_. Do we _really_ want to teach our children how to "get out of jail free" by making someone else feel worse than they already do because of...whatever?


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## laoxinat (Sep 17, 2007)

Way too much Psych is based on animal studies that do not apply to human behavior, because they do not account for such things as language and parenting style. A lot of theorists nowadays are recognizing that compelling children to do things against their will not only interferes with attachment, but just plain doesn't have the results they intend. And alarmingly, many of these so called experts _do not have children_. And if they do, those children are by necessity cared for largely by others. So I don't put too much stock in their opinions.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

I have a super sensitive little guy. He has almost always been very remorseful if he has accidentally hurt someone. He's also very good about Please and Thank You, and I know that I can't take credit for all of this, much of it is his personality and some of it is DP and teaching by example. Frankly I have no idea how I would react if I ever asked DS "You knocked that little boy down when you were running past, can you go see if he is okay, and tell him you are sorry?" and he didn't jump to go see if the other kid was okay. I usually wouldn't ever need to finish the sentence. If he ever refused I *think* I would tell him that it made me sad he wasn't going to look out for others feelings and then go over and tell the child and other child's mother I was sorry he had been knocked over.


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *laoxinat* 
Beautifully put! ITA! OT warning! Gosh, MF, have you been away or am I just







: ? Your posts SO rock!

aww shucks








thanks








actually, I'm not around MDC much any more... less internet time at home, a new love in my life, focusing more on midwifery...
okay, back on topic now


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## laoxinat (Sep 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majikfaerie* 
aww shucks








thanks








actually, I'm not around MDC much any more... less internet time at home, a new love in my life, focusing more on midwifery...
okay, back on topic now









Majik's got a girlfriend, Majik's got a girlfriend...







...tee hee! Oh crap, yeeah, sorry back on topic...la la la la la la


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

you shush now


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## mrsfatty (Dec 21, 2004)

double post...forever later...


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## mrsfatty (Dec 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cyndimo* 
I have to admit, we do "forced" apologies...
I see it as part of the lesson on manners - there are certain rules for things we say in certain cirucmstances, whether we really mean it or not.
When our body makes a noise (ie burp or fart), we say excuse me.
When we do something that makes someone say "ow", we say I'm sorry. (It doesn't matter if it was on purpose or on accident. So many older kids balk at saying sorry "because it was an accident")
I know that at 2.5yo, it's too young to expect real empathy. But I do think that at this age, he can understand that he needs to acknowledge that it was his action that caused the "ow".
We are now working on the rule that says if you are about to do something that you know will make someone say ow, don't do it.
FWIW - the only people he seems to practice the "sorry" rule and it's limits on are me and DP.

I've seen it as a way of "manners" as well...so that's what prompted my question (and we've been teaching it as a way of manners/consideration)...but now I'm rethinking it...or at least how I'm doing it...I like asking the child if the other child is ok stuff...I'm still processing!


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Agree with almost everything the PPs have said. We didn't force apologies and I certainly wouldn't now ( dd is 18). A forced apology is useless IMO. I raised an internally motivated child. And she learned by example. I apologise to her when I have made a mistake. It's something I also encouraged dh to do since it's pretty clear he was raised in the forced apology household where I'm sorry makes everything ok and it's all supposed to be forgotten now like they are magic words. Not. He has learned over the years to be more internally motivated and and have genuine remorse, whereas before he just got mad anytime anyone was hurt and wanted to apologise and just forget about it.

Remorse is the foundation for an apology IMO. And it's also the foundation for change. Additionally I am not and did not raise a kid to just blindly do as she was told.


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## laoxinat (Sep 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *majikfaerie* 
you shush now









Moi?







:


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## LaughingHyena (May 4, 2004)

I have an issue with forced apologies which I don't think has been addressed yet. DD really doesn't like being on the receiving end of them and it makes me really uncomfortable too.

A couple of things which have been really difficult to handle. First we were at a playground, DD went down the slide but had not yet got off the bottom (she likes to shuffle all the way to the end before getting off). A little boy (I guess 3 ish) was at the top and slid down into DD. He didn't hit her hard and she wasn't upset by it. Had roles been reversed I think I would have just asked the child if they were OK and reminded mine that they needed to wait till the slide was clear then move on. However the other mum was really insistent that the little boy say sorry, then both he and DD ended up crying. I didn't quite know how to handle it. I let the other mum know that DD wasn't hurt, these things happen but it was obvious she wanted him to say sorry. In the end I just said to DD it's time to go home.

Other occasions at playgroups where DD has been pushed/had a toy snatched and again she's not that bothered by it. However a lot of people want thier little ones to give her a hug to make her feel better. I guess this is when they are not yet very verbal. But DD is not keen on being hugged at the best of times, and defiantly not by the child who just pushed her over . I usually just say DD doesn't feel like a hug just now but again I just find it an uncomfortable situation.

I think for most people they want to be seen to be "doing something" when their little one is doing something "wrong" .


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

We do "forced apologies" in that we ask our boys to say sorry if they've hurt someone or if they have broken a rule. I think they are getting it and understanding. Sometimes they don't want to say sorry and we pretty much make them wait in time out until they say it.

But.... we do time outs very sparingly and sometimes we ask them to say sorry without a time out. We are very gentle in how we do time outs and we speak to them calmly and gently, and always end with hugs and reconciliation. We generally ask the children to say they are sorry, and it's part of our time out routine. I may ask the children to say sorry just as I would ask them to say please or thank you to another person. But it's not really forced in social settings as I don't use consequences if they don't. If they dont' say sorry, then I will say sorry instead.

I know a lot of adults, and a lot of adult men who basically never feel they have to say sorry to anyone. Adults sometimes should say they are sorry even if they don't feel sorry, sometimes it's about manners and getting along with others more than their own feelings.

My kids are loving and empathetic, they sometimes will show disappointment with themselves when they know they have done something wrong.

I can understand why some families don't feel it's a fit. We think it's been OK and don't see a negative effect on the kids. I don't have strong feelings about it that one way is right or wrong, I could see using it or not.

Our kids learned sign language for "sorry" along with please and thank you.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Swirly* 
Also, I find forced apologies to be shaming.

I think it really depends on how it's done. It's one thing to calmly say "please say you're sorry" and another get physical, use a condescending tone, etc. etc. It depends on the intent of the person. I see a lot of kids get shamed in a lot of situations by parents who IMO have bad attitudes and are too easily embarassed by their kids, but it's not always like that.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I agree that forced apologies are shaming. And why in the world would anyone want a fake apology for the sake of "getting along". I much prefer having honest relationships.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KBecks* 
Adults sometimes should say they are sorry even if they don't feel sorry, sometimes it's about manners and getting along with others more than their own feelings

FWIW, I do my best to avoid the company of anybody who I feel has offered me a false apology, for the sake of "manners" and I strongly disagree that adults "sometimes should" say sorry even if they don't feel sorry. I don't see apologies as being a manners issue, but a remorse issue. If someone has done or said something to me that hurt me, and they don't feel sorry, the sickening sugar coating of saying "I'm sorry" makes it _worse_, not better. I've mentioned this before in this thread. *Being on the receiving end of a "manners" apology makes me feel worse.* Is this what we want to teach our children - "go ahead and treat that person like crap, honey, but make sure you make it worse by offering a fake sorry afterwards, because that's polite"?

If someone tries to get along with me by saying sorry when they're not, then they've failed to get along with me. If I don't figure out that it's a fake apology, then we're in the realm of a relationship (be it friendship, co-worker, whatever) based on lies, and I don't go there.

IMO, saying "I'm sorry" if you're not is lying, pure and simple. It's not something I want to teach my kids, and I'm _very_ uncomfortable around people who have learned it.


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

I was berated once for not FORCING my DS to apologize by a stranger once..it really took me by surprise! I have since thought it out and now I do make DS apologize when he hits. (he has always been a hitter) the hitting did not decrease though until I started doing forced apologies. and by forced apologies I mean I will tell him we "we are going to go say sorry to so and so and see if he/she is ok." it honestly doesn't matter to me if he says sorry himself or not but I try! if he won't apologize I will! but I will always go try to acknowledge the other child was hurt WITH him. so maybe not toally forced but kind of..there is no shaming involved at all. It's called learning to be accoutable for your own actions to me!!! it's NOT ok with me for DS to continue hitting other kids. removing him from the situation does nothing for us. talking about it and reasoning has not helped. it only took a couple of times with the apologies and DS started gaining a little more empathy IMHO. then again my kid has sensory issues so it's been a long road.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I don't see apologies as being a manners issue, but a remorse issue.

*Being on the receiving end of a "manners" apology makes me feel worse.* .

Maybe it's an issue of some children and adults need to learn or be reminded of when it's appropriate to be remorseful.

Not everyone feels worse when apologized to. That's how you react. Sometimes I'm happy to hear an apology even if I don't buy that it's 100% heartfelt, at least the person is making some effort to reconcile a situation where there are hurt feelings.

Maybe it's how we think of a false apology. Some apologies are not -- it's in the tone of how the apology is offered.

We'll continue with reminding our children when it's appropriate to apologize and suggesting it to them at those times.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KBecks* 
Maybe it's an issue of some children and adults need to learn or be reminded of when it's appropriate to be remorseful.

Probably. I do wonder what that has to do with forcing an apology.

Quote:

Not everyone feels worse when apologized to. That's how you react. Sometimes I'm happy to hear an apology even if I don't buy that it's 100% heartfelt, at least the person is making some effort to reconcile a situation where there are hurt feelings.
That's not true in the case of forced apologies. Someone is making some effort to avoid getting into trouble. IME, people who offer forced apologies will continue with their hurtful behaviour as soon as the person forcing the apology turns their backs. There is no effort at reconciliation involved. Honestly, the most hurtful people I've ever known have _all_ either offered forced apologies (when I'm talking about kids) and/or offered "manners" apologies (some teens and several adults) as a free pass to continue behaving in a hurtful fashion.

Quote:

Maybe it's how we think of a false apology. Some apologies are not -- it's in the tone of how the apology is offered.
I certainly never said that all apologies are false. I've been on the receiving end of some very sincere, heartfelt apologies that went a long, long way towards clearing things up between me and the people involved. IMO, a forced apology is a false apology. If it's not false, then it wouldn't be forced in the first place.

Quote:

We'll continue with reminding our children when it's appropriate to apologize and suggesting it to them at those times.
That's great. I'm a little hazy as to what it has to do with forced apologies, though. I certainly discuss apologies with my kids (doesn't do much with ds2, of course - and it's still iffy with dd), and have been very pleased to see ds1 apologize in situations where it was very difficult for him to do so. I still refuse to force an apology.


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## majikfaerie (Jul 24, 2006)

IMO,
"You did X, say you're sorry right now or I'll punish you" = forced apology.
guiding a child to see what their actions have caused, and gently reminding them that an apology is appropriate, (without expectations) = guidance.
The difference is that the child has a choice. The child doesn't lose dignity or autonomy and she isn't coerced to lie for the sake of artificial social conventions.

I do believe that in many cases, people who were forced to apologize unsincerely as children grow up to resent the idea of making apologies, and as soon as they are free of their parental influence, forgo the whole concept of remorse. They associate the feeling of remorse with feelings of shame.

Not saying that happens every time, and I'm sure there will be some families this works for. It's just not something I could do myself.
I believe (and I see) that my child will learn to say sorry when she feels it, by having that behaviour modeled.


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## mommy_e (Feb 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KBecks* 
I think it really depends on how it's done. It's one thing to calmly say "please say you're sorry" and another get physical, use a condescending tone, etc. etc. It depends on the intent of the person. I see a lot of kids get shamed in a lot of situations by parents who IMO have bad attitudes and are too easily embarassed by their kids, but it's not always like that.


But what do you do when your child won't say it after you have told him to?

If you have never had them refuse, then you aren't really in the situation described. Suggesting that they apologize or pointing out when they should is not "forced apology". It is the next step of "say you're sorry or else <insert consequence>" that we don't do.


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## DavinaT (Jun 28, 2005)

"There is also something I've noticed about some adults who, as children, were shamed into making apologies . . . often grow up to be adults who will NOT admit that they are ever wrong. Either they are so filled with shame when they make mistakes, that they cannot bear to lose face and admit they did something wrong."

Am on a real learning curve here. That quote describes my beloved, who incidentally never remebers being apologised to as a child, when he was wronged by an adult. He has no problem saying sorry when he forgot to put the bin out (nope, it's not exclusively his job but he seems to feel compelled to apologise anyway) or left the roasting pan in he oven for week (yuuuckkk) but he he has said something that has upset me - evne tho he didn't mean to upset me, he has a real hard time apologizing - which leads me to try to force an apology, which makes him baulk at it even more which . . you get the picture! But we have found a way around it which maybe you guys are teacing your kiddos. He will do something to apologize instead - a flower from the garden, making me a cup of ground coffee, things like that.
I on the other hand, tend to over-apologise.
I guess we're like a pair of 30 something toddlers learning these things.

One thing I did think funny was when l'il un, having following me out to the bin in the dark, accidentally stepped on next door's dog's paw. He yelped and ran down the yard. She ran after him, apologised and tried to hug him (He is, thankfully, a very placid animal).


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## SoulJourney (Sep 26, 2005)

I don't really have time to read everyone else's responses, so at the risk of sounding redundant, here is my opinion:

Forcing an apology teaches a child to say something they may not mean, aka: LIE. Apologies, to me, are like thank yous, pleases and so forth. The best way to teach a child to have good manners, sympathy, empathy, etcetera is to MODEL IT. Toddlers, IMO, have a knack for not wanting to do what they are FORCED to do. However, if I say please, thank you, I'm sorry, bless you, etcetera in the appropriate situations, I have found that my DS _observes and learns_ my actions, just as he picks up all of the negative aspects of my personality...the things I try to HIDE!







I teach through modeling (or trying to, that is) _what I perceive to be_ good behaviour and good manners. If he is not sorry for something I would hate to make him lie. That, IMO, is setting a horrible precedent for the future.

Just my .02 worth!

HTH


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## shantimama (Mar 11, 2002)

In our family we ask people to 'make things right' if someone gets hurt. That can mean checking of they are okay, apologizing, or doing something to make amends or seek reonciliation. It goes just as much for dh and I as for our children. If someone accidentally hurts someone else we still ask them to apologize - they can say they didn't see the other person, or it was an accident or whatever -we are just asking them to acknowledge the other person's hurt and their part in it. We also ask everyone to say "Thank you" when they receive an apology. It often isnt easy to make things right - especially if you meant to hurt the other person and as my children have grown older, they can take revengeful delight in ignoring someone else's apology - setting off a whole new chain of unpleasantness







: The thank you does not equal "I forgive you" - it just acknowledges that the reconciliation process has begun. It really seems to help. My children are 8-11 and they are capable of doing this and appreciate it when they are treated with courtesy and like how they feel when they treat otehr people with courtesy.


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## GinaRae (Mar 27, 2007)

I don't feel this is an all or nothing thing. There are a few nuances.

If a child is cruelly shamed into apologizing and nothing is explained on their level, they take nothing from it that will help in the future.

We do make our kids apologize, but we also use logic and empathy teaching either right then or afterwards, depending on the situation.

They also have to look the other person in the eye and "genuinely apologize." No avoidance and sarcastic apologies.

The reason we do this -- and perhaps it's because my kids are older and one is special needs, so I have perspectives others may not -- they need accountability and to show respect and peace to other people.

They may not take that particular apology to heart, but we discuss the need to RESPECT other people and those other people deserve an apology whether we want to or not. We teach them empathy and we discuss accountability and eventually it all sinks in.

I also use the opportunity to show them they're worthy when I stand up for them. If I see the other person or child is wrong as well, I call them on it. Depending on the situation I also ask them for an apology. I explain why their actions were hurtful to my child, etc. This teaches the kids to verbalize their anger, fear or annoyance instead of doing something "wrong."

I truly feel the way I am teaching them makes them more likely to be forthcoming with genuine apologies when they're wrong. Like how I genuinely apologize to them, to my husband, to my sales clerk or anyone else in front of them. It takes a lot of guts to genuinely apologize to someone and admit you're wrong. I think they will mirror my behavior and I have SEEN the olders mirror me already.

FYI: When the child receives an apology, they have the option of saying "apology accepted" or verbalizing how they feel they're not ready yet. Because an apology is great, but just because we apologize for something, it doesn't erase the wrong that was done and all is forgiven and forgotten. SO many times they would do something to a brother and say, "oh sorry!" and go on their merry way when the brother was still reeling from the wrong. So we slow them down a bit and to "genuinely apologize" is to look them in the eye and be sure the other person is okay.


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## kuhlmom (Sep 23, 2005)

Just finished reading through everyone's replies & just had to say thanks, this has been a really informative thread for me.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GinaRae* 
We do make our kids apologize, but we also use logic and empathy teaching either right then or afterwards, depending on the situation.

They also have to look the other person in the eye and "genuinely apologize." No avoidance and sarcastic apologies.

May I just ask what you mean by "genuinely apologize"? I don't understand how it can be genuine when you're making them do it.


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## GinaRae (Mar 27, 2007)

I explained it already - I won't argue about this, but I'll give a quick synapsis. I teach them what a genuine apology looks like and feels like and why. They learn, they mirror, and they become genuine. Much like I am teaching the baby how to sign for milk when all he wants is a nipple in his mouth at that moment. I don't understand why parents are not teaching their kids empathy and boundaries and just expecting them to understand that they cannot hurt someone and not have consequences.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GinaRae* 
I explained it already - I won't argue about this, but I'll give a quick synapsis.

I'm not trying to argue. I just don't get it. Genuine apologies and forced apologies, imo, _cannot_ be the same thing. I'm getting what you're saying about what a genuine apology looks like (although I don't 100% agree, as a genuine apology is going to look different, depending on the person making it, the person receiving it, and the circumstances). I just don't get how anyone can make someone else give a genuine apology.

If you mean, as I'm getting from your last post, that it has to _look_ genuine, then I get it.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

*triple post*


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

*triple post*


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

We don't do forced apologies either. Neither does my girls' preschool and I am so thankful for that.

We teach the kids about empathy through our own actions and model for them what we should do when we hurt someone.

When they hurt someone else or do something, we help the hurt child confront the "hurter" with words and feelings. We help them communicate and talk through it. The parent/adult will often offer their own apology "oh susie, I am sorry that you got hurt. i know that didn't feel good." We ask the "hurter" what do you think you should do to help susie? There are many different ways to teach a child empathy without asking them directly to apologize or forcing them to do so.

It has worked with our girls beautifully. My 3 year old often comes up and apologizes to me when she sees that I am frustrated because someone smooshed playdoh onto the carpet or I accidentally got hit with a stray airplane


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## mrsfatty (Dec 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KBecks* 
We do "forced apologies" in that we ask our boys to say sorry if they've hurt someone or if they have broken a rule. I think they are getting it and understanding. Sometimes they don't want to say sorry and we pretty much make them wait in time out until they say it.

But.... we do time outs very sparingly and sometimes we ask them to say sorry without a time out. We are very gentle in how we do time outs and we speak to them calmly and gently, and always end with hugs and reconciliation. We generally ask the children to say they are sorry, and it's part of our time out routine. I may ask the children to say sorry just as I would ask them to say please or thank you to another person. But it's not really forced in social settings as I don't use consequences if they don't. If they dont' say sorry, then I will say sorry instead.

I know a lot of adults, and a lot of adult men who basically never feel they have to say sorry to anyone. Adults sometimes should say they are sorry even if they don't feel sorry, sometimes it's about manners and getting along with others more than their own feelings.

My kids are loving and empathetic, they sometimes will show disappointment with themselves when they know they have done something wrong.

I can understand why some families don't feel it's a fit. We think it's been OK and don't see a negative effect on the kids. I don't have strong feelings about it that one way is right or wrong, I could see using it or not.

Our kids learned sign language for "sorry" along with please and thank you.

Thank you for your response!


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

I agree that teaching empathy and compassion is much more valuable to a child's overall interaction with the world. I don't like the idea of forcing apologies either...but I think expecting an apology teaches a kid responsibility and manners.

I've seen forced apologies work over time with kids who are given consistent direction and explanation.

I'm not opposed to them, if they're done with explanation, guidance, and love.







I think it works!


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## aghiofog (Apr 7, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
IMO it is meaningless to make a child SAY they're sorry if they're not sorry. Doesn't teach anything I'm interested in teaching.

I'm much more interested in teaching empathy so that my child will actually BE sorry if they do something that hurts someone else. So we talk a lot about how the other person feels when something goes wrong. Sometimes she gets it, sometimes she doesn't. But little by little she is moving to a place where she can put herself in someone else's shoes without prompting.

A forced apology is meaningless. IMO it's much worse to have a glaring, obviously NOT sorry kid mumble "sorry" than just to move on at that time.

-Angela

I agree that a forced apology is rarely sincere, but , after we speak about what the other person might be feeling after being treated that way, or after how the child might feel if they were treated the same, I often say "what would you like someone to say to you if you were the one who got hurt?" And this often prompts them to remember to apologize. What is other people's opinions on this? If I am reminding them, is it still forcing the apology? I mean, kids, especially those old enough to understand this message, but young enough to still forget things regularly, often benefit from reminders about lots of things-should apologizing be different? (I am asking honestly) I hope I am not just unintentionally causing my kids to think they can be insincere and all is well! AHHH!!
On a slightly different note, when my kids receive an apology from anyone, I have taught them that they should say "thank you" if they are thankful for the apology, but too angry to "accept" it and let bygones be bygones, or "I accept your apology" if they are. Does that make sense? Anyone have an opinion on that?
Thanks


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

I don't ever force it, but I suggest it, along the lines of, "Can you think of anything that might make X feel better?" (We've talked about saying you're sorry helps, and also how asking the other person what you can do helps.)


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aghiofog* 
I agree that a forced apology is rarely sincere, but , after we speak about what the other person might be feeling after being treated that way, or after how the child might feel if they were treated the same, I often say "what would you like someone to say to you if you were the one who got hurt?" And this often prompts them to remember to apologize. What is other people's opinions on this? If I am reminding them, is it still forcing the apology? I mean, kids, especially those old enough to understand this message, but young enough to still forget things regularly, often benefit from reminders about lots of things-should apologizing be different? (I am asking honestly) I hope I am not just unintentionally causing my kids to think they can be insincere and all is well! AHHH!!
On a slightly different note, when my kids receive an apology from anyone, I have taught them that they should say "thank you" if they are thankful for the apology, but too angry to "accept" it and let bygones be bygones, or "I accept your apology" if they are. Does that make sense? Anyone have an opinion on that?
Thanks

I agree with this, and it's what I use as a parent. I think it teaches manners, and also empathy and forgiveness.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
I don't ever force it, but I suggest it, along the lines of, "Can you think of anything that might make X feel better?" (We've talked about saying you're sorry helps, and also how asking the other person what you can do helps.)

Maybe "suggest" and "remind" are more accurate words than "force." It's not like I ever say, "Say you're sorry or else."


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