# OMGosh... I am in shock!



## mamabear3 (May 6, 2006)

Ok, I called my sister today. They have one son who is 2.5 yrs old who they are trying to potty learn. As our kids are only 5 wks apart... I totally understand!









Well, we have very different parenting styles to start with... they FF and CIO and don't cosleep or anything. As a general rule, we don't offer each other advice as it turns into an argument. BTW, I am the big sis! It matters!

Well, he ds had had an accident and she was telling him that he had to use the potty and so on. Well then she calls her dh in and tells him. He says something I can't understand and my nephew says "NO, NO DAD!"









So I ask what's going on and shes nochalantly, that they are trying a new method because they will not have "a 3 yr old that is not potty trained". I ask what they are doing and she say... Ready to fall over dead?...

They SPANK HIM when he has an accident!!!!!!














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I was so upset. I don't believe in spanking, but I know certain people do... but this? COME ON!!! He is 2.5!

So, I am going to read the anti spanking info, but anything else I should know? Also, how do I approach it effectively? I could only make it worse, but feel like I have to say something.

Sigh. Sick to my stomach and needing to go to bed. TIA.


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## mamabear3 (May 6, 2006)

I know!!! I was so in shock I didn't know what to say! I just told her I had to go.







:


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## dillonandmarasmom (May 30, 2005)

Oh my g*d, that just brought out an audible gasp...WTF??? Do these people think humiliation and physical pain are going to convince that little one to sit on the potty? Man, if I'd have been on the phone with her....(I know, not my sis...) so sorry that you have to know about that







.


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## ericswifey27 (Feb 12, 2005)

Ugh.

Every time he uses the bathroom, he is going to associate it with being punished.








:

Just tell your sister what's going through your mind. You'd be doing her a great favor.


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## oliversmum2000 (Oct 10, 2003)

urinating on the toilet is a very brave thing to do, if he has fear with regard to emptying his bowels or urniating he will be terrified and not be able to be brave enough to use the toilet and will feel the need to hide when he does go. plus i think that boweld and bladder can only be controlled when a child feels relaxed and happy, a frightened child will have far less control in this area due to the underlying fear.


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## Frogmorest (Jan 31, 2004)

I have a story. Friends of mine adopted a little boy at the age of 5. He had been in foster care from the time he was 2.5. Whenever he had an accident his foster mom would spank him viciously. When he came to my friends house he would stand in front of the toilet and SPANK HIMSELF so he could go to the bathroom...

You might want to pass that gem on to your sister. It's horrible. It's wrong and it's abuse.


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

Wow, not only is your sister abusing her kid, but she's making things harder for herself and her husband in the process. I don't spank my dd, but I did get a little cranky when she pooped on the floor a few times. Guess what, it meant she regressed in her potty learning, and had a lot more accidents for a while!


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## mom22girls (May 5, 2005)

Hmm - abuse aside, do they know it may not be developmentally feasible for a 2.5 year old or 3 year old to put together all the concepts of toileting?? Sounds like besides their parenting skills, they might want to adjust their expectations. I think most pediatricians will back that up.


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## Strong Mama (Feb 7, 2006)

:





































Let me at er, let me at er!!!


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Oh duh. Good grief -- I thought everyone in the world new how badly you can screw a kid up by punishing over toileting issues when they are 2 yo. You can do an internet search and find tons of information about why this is a BAD IDEA. This kid is going to have some issues. And regression, and set backs like they won't believe.

Not to mention, they are really stressing themselves out much more than its wroth.

I waited until my boys were 3 years old. Then I potty trained each of them in about 2-3 weeks. With no pain. It was almost the easiest aspect of parenting we encountered. They were ready -- period.


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## tbone (Dec 17, 2006)

The thought of that poor child being spanked for having an accident truly makes me sick to my stomach. It's called an accident for a reason, I wonder if they go around abusing each other if say someone accidently drops a glass.


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## Al Dente (Jan 8, 2004)

My brother and sil spanked their kids for accidents, too. Out of four kids:

the oldest potty learned before she was 2 (on her own)

the second child (girl) didn't potty learned until age FIVE because she was so afraid of it (and, I think, decided to exert some control over the situation by peeing/pooing everywhere unless they kept her in diapers)

the third child (boy) potty learned at age four and a half

the youngest potty trained fully by age three without being punished when he had an accident.

I guess bro/sil figured out how harmful it was before kid #4. They still "joke" about how much they had to spank Savanna in order to get her to go on the potty.









OP, I agree that you must say something...but I don't think it's going to change their minds.


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## rrmrose (Aug 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tbone* 
The thought of that poor child being spanked for having an accident truly makes me sick to my stomach. It's called an accident for a reason, I wonder if they go around abusing each other if say someone accidently drops a glass.

I was going to say the same thing. Does your sister spank her husband if he get a little pee on the seat.

Rachel


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## Jade2561 (Jun 12, 2005)

That is so terrible and upsetting. My heart is breaking right now!







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I would pass on some anti-spanking info and also some potty training info as well. Poor baby!


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

OMG, they sound totally vicious and out of control. How horrible for that little boy.


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## lalaland42 (Mar 12, 2006)

Wow. Just wow. I can see why you would be in shock, I would be too. I would say something too because I would feel like I had to but I don't think I would expect any change. Just try to not make your sis feel defensive (if possible) because then she won't listen. Do you have a female authority figure/matriarch in your family you could enlist for help? Some women who have BTDT and can approach the situation without too much emotion might have a better chance getting through.

GL. Can we have her phone number, pretty please?







:


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## Benji'sMom (Sep 14, 2004)

I don't know what would be the best thing to do. Lots of people have these arbitrary ages in their minds of when it becomes "gross" to change diapers. I just recently posted about a co-worker who forced her kids to PT starting at around the first birthday because she thought changing a 2yo's diapers was gross. There's no particular reason why a 3yo shouldn't still wear diapers. Did someone make some kind of comments to her, that it was gross, or is this something she read, or what? Where did she get this idea. Maybe one thing to do is tell her a 2.5 yo is GOING to have accidents, and hitting him isn't going to make his bladder work any better. Sort of related to that is, let's say 3 yo is plenty old enough to potty train and be out of diapers. This child is not 3. There's a big difference between 2.5yo and 3yo. Maybe she doesn't see that because she doesn't have a 3yo to compare him to, but they are way different. My 3yo is potty trained. When he was 2.5 he was not. He had accidents all over the place. But he didn't need to be spanked in order to finish potty learning before age 3. I think that might be the approach I'd take. "Look, sis, I'm not sure why you think you have to start spanking him to get him to potty train by age 3. Kids can learn how to use the potty by age 3 without having to be punished 6 months in advance." I mean, you said she is trying this as a "new method" so that makes it sound like they are trying to PT him way to early, it wasn't working, they think there's something wrong with him, not realizing that they are just starting way too far in advance, so they are at the point of desperation now and think the only thing that will work is the one method they haven't tried yet - spanking. I would just tell her, it's really not necessary, 2.5 is too young to expect "no accidents" but by 3yo he will naturally be much better, without all the punishment.

Or maybe you could suggest that they have a talk with their pediatrician. Will they listen to him? I'm thinking most peds would tell the parents to stop spanking for accidents.

Are they so mainstream that they like Dr. Phil? Even Dr. Phil says he can tell which adults were PT "at gunpoint" as children. On his article about his PTing method, he says "If your child has an accident in his underwear, don't scold him. You want this to be a positive experience." And that even after you get them to use it the first time, expect accidents and don't scold: "When your child has an accident, simply take him/her to the bathroom ten times in a row as you did before. This will continue to build muscle memory. And don't forget to keep up the positive reinforcement."

http://drphil.com/articles/article/264/

I don't know where she thought up this "method" but I would just stress that it is unecessary for getting the kid to use the potty by age 3, but also it is well agreed by experts and peds that it is phsychologically damaging.


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## kalynnsmom (Dec 3, 2004)

How sad for your sister's little boy! This infuriates me but makes me sad for him. My dad tried doing this with me and ended up going to the Dr (my dad thought it was a bright idea to spank me when I pooped my pants when I was 2. I then didn't poop for like a week or so and had to go to the Dr)

I hope something changes and she realizes that this is NOT a good approach :bighug:


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## mowilli3 (Jan 7, 2007)

Tell her that she and her dh are wrong.


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom22girls* 
Hmm - abuse aside, do they know it may not be developmentally feasible for a 2.5 year old or 3 year old to put together all the concepts of toileting?? Sounds like besides their parenting skills, they might want to adjust their expectations. I think most pediatricians will back that up.

It is absolutely developmentally feasible to not pee in your clothes at age 2.5. It has become unusual for many reasons but in the 90s it was normal.

Having said that I am sick to the stomach thinking about the OP's dn *knowing* what was going to happen to him for having an accident and saing 'no, no' to his dad. They are abusing him and its wrong no two ways about it.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Wow, I'm pretty darn non-judgmental but that's obscene. Suggest she ask her pediatrician about it. I'm sure s/he's a mainstream doc and they'll give her/his facts more credence than yours. I cannot imagine ANYONE supporting that--it's stupid, develop. inappropriate and abusive. Poor kid's going to spend lots on therapy in 20 years.


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## napua (Feb 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *orangefoot* 
It is absolutely developmentally feasible to not pee in your clothes at age 2.5. It has become unusual for many reasons but in the 90s it was normal.

Having said that I am sick to the stomach thinking about the OP's dn *knowing* what was going to happen to him for having an accident and saing 'no, no' to his dad. They are abusing him and its wrong no two ways about it.

I think that it is a huge assuption to think that it is absolutely feasible to expect a 2.5 year old not to have accidents. All children are different and PT at different times.

They are abusing their son for being a normal child. They are wrong and I am disgusted.


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## tsume (Jun 4, 2005)

Most pediatricians now are of the mindset that you should let the child lead and not to push and it's closer to 3 when a child is physically able to control pee/poop. Have her talk to her pediatrician about this.

Maybe suggest there might be something physically wrong instead of him being "stubborn", or whatever they feel he is being, and have the pediatrician evaluate him. If they get the talk from someone "official" then they might reconsider their, uh, technique.


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## SleepyMamaBear (Jun 5, 2005)

there is a friend of my family that has three sons, one is a month old, one is a year older than Addy and one is 7.
the three year old has been working on potty learning for a year. its taken him a LONG time, ebcause... everytime he has an accident.. they spank him. hard.
his dad, who is a very blue collar good ol boy isnt even the spanker for potty infractions, its the mama, the one i ahve known since i was 4.
when i found out, after rushing him to the bathroom when he said he had to go, and he had pooped in his pullup just before getting his pants down (







) he started crying and shaking saying he was going to get a spanking. i was in SHOCK. i told him "no one should ever hurt you. especially not for having an accident. dont worry babe", and gave him a big ol hug then when i had a moment alone with his aprents i tried to explain to him that spanking him about potty isssues will NOT help, and thats probably why its been taking him SO long to potty learn. that children who associate negative feelings about their bodies own natural behaviors, like going to the bathroom, etc will cause MAJOR psychological problems later on down the road, not to mention its HURTING him now, physically and emotionally.
their response was "well you dont know what you are talking about cause you have a lil girl, and she potty learned early so she didnt have any porblems, he has problems so we are fixing them by spanking him. we arent hurting him." its almost IMPOSSIBLE to get spankers to listen and understand that spanking IS hurting the child.
i am so sorry you had to hear that on the phone with your nephews.







what a terrible thing to experience. maybe you could print up some antispank lit and mail it to her?


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## eldadeedlit (Jun 22, 2004)

I am one of those people who absolutely HATES changing toddler diapers. Makes me gag, seriously sick to my stomach. Blech. Between 2 and 2.5, both of my older children seemed like they could use the potty. I don't know how much they wanted to, but they weren't really against it. We just took the diapers off, which I know some consider a no-no but it worked like a charm for us. Took like, a week to day-pt them. Just told them "No more diapers. You use the potty now." Seriously incredibly easy. I think the key is to NOT use diapers at ALL, except at night if they dont have the bladder control to go all night. I think at 2 or 3, most children can definitely use the potty and I think it is better for everybody involved. And you definitely need to be low-key and matter-of-fact about it.

That being said, I totally agree with the PP's that spanking the poor kid is horrible and completely counter-productive. I think you should definitely try to offer some support or ideas on other ways to do it. Have they tried rewards (like candy? Not really my cup of tea, but I think it can give them enough incentive to *try* going on the potty, you know? Then once they see it's kinda neat, they might want to keep doing it.) Or really, if they haven't tried completely going cold turkey w. the diapers they should. I think pull ups can be confusing to the kid.

Anyway I really understand why they would be sick of changing diapers. I REEEAALLY do. Toddler poop is just..ick. So I understand her desperation. I think maybe offering her some alternatives may be the best way to go, you know?


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## mamabear3 (May 6, 2006)

I just have a moment, but wanted to thank everyone for their reply. I have been thinking about it alot and will share what I think i will do when the kiddos go to bed. Keep them coming... the more mainstream the better.


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## tuansprincess (Oct 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom22girls* 
Hmm - abuse aside, do they know it may not be developmentally feasible for a 2.5 year old or 3 year old to put together all the concepts of toileting?? Sounds like besides their parenting skills, they might want to adjust their expectations. I think most pediatricians will back that up.

Well, if it was truly the case that humans are incapaple of controlling their sphincter and bladder muscles until 3 + years, what would the 95% of the world that doesn't use diapers do? Obviously, children (my little 4mos ds included!) are indeed capable of all the aspects of toileting minus the developmental milestone of being able to maneuver themselves onto an apropriate recepticle. This is what he relies on me to help him with.

Children in America are diaper-learned and subsequently potty-learned, or, un-diaper-learned. Children stuck in diapers lose the ability to recognize the need to go to the toilet and it is a hard thing (in most cases) for them to re-learn.

I don't want to hiijack the OP thread. I just wanted to throw that out and clear the waters.


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## JanB (Mar 4, 2004)

Ask your sister how she would feel if, every time she performed a bodily function, she knew that someone was going to strike her painfully? Just let her stew on that one for a while. They are creating an association in this child's mind between pain/fear on the one hand, and peeing/pooping on the other. There are excellent odds that they are actually delaying the time when he will be able to successfully use the potty, rather than speeding it up.

I'd also probably suggest some of the other potty-training methods that people have used, i.e. the "no diapers anymore" method. I would actually probably recommend that at this point they just drop the entire issue for a while, since it's become this huge traumatic problem, and then when they revisit it, try something non-punitive.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Let's not muddy this discussion with a debate about EC (elimination communication- teaching babies to use a potty/toilet rather than diapers.) Most EC babies are fully capable of staying clean and dry long before they enter the "strong negative" stage of being 2 or 2.5.

What we have here is a 2.5yo who HAS been using diapers for the past 2.5 years. Developmentally it's a difficult time to learn how to use the toilet for the first time- they want to be independent and NOT do what mama and papa want them to do, and games are far too interesting to pause them for a bathroom break.

It's doubtful these parents are going to listen to any anti-spanking info, certainly not if you outright tell them "you're wrong and I'm right." I think if you don't teach them (the parents) a better method of potty training, they'll keep on spanking for "accidents."







How about a bribe/positive reinforcement, such as a sticker or a candy every time the child successfully uses the toilet/potty? Then another reward (such as new undies the child picks out?) after being reliably dry/clean for a while.


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

this thread brought back such vivid memories for me.
My folks had a frined who not only hit her child for accidents but then pinned the soiled underwear to his clothes!







Even as a child I thought that was way messed up.
It makes me physically ill to think that poor baby is being hit for having accidents. We are right in the middle of PT our 2 1/2 year old... we just took away the diapers and got one of those little portable potties and it is just in whatever room we are in. And we just remind him often or every hour or so I take hime to the toilet. But he seems ready. My dd wasn't ready until she was 3, my oldest son (now 9) wasn't ready until just before 3 1/2, and ds#2 was ready at about 2. We did to a reward thing, like new undies and maybe some special treat (like out for ice cream or lunch with dad or mom alone).
It can be frustrating to have to clean up accidents, but if it happens alot, maybe he isn't ready yet. What is the hurry? It is "nasty" to change toddler poop, it is nastier to hit a child. Poor baby.

H


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Just one more horror story!

My inlaws did the same thing with my dn, along with begging him to "please, please poop on the potty for mama", and openly discussing his naughtiness and disgusting inability to potty train in front of everyone. Now he's 5 1/2, and he's always, always constipated. He regularly, like at least four times a week, poops one little tiny nugget out in his pants, and then goes around with it in there for the rest of the day. And quite he sticks his hand in his pants and itches, and then goes around with poop on his hands, too.

Do you think he's popular in kindergarten? Nobody wants to have him around. I love him dearly, but he's done that in my house so many times that I'm really grossed out by him, and hate to have him over.


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## mama2cntrykids (Feb 16, 2006)

Ok, that's just aweful, really! What on earth is THAT teaching him?! Wow, just, wow...


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## PeacefulSeams (Apr 10, 2006)

I was spanked when I had an accident with a switch and I was humiliated. After the spanking, I was made to wear my wet panties on my head. I didn't potty train until I was 6. I was scared of using the bathroom so I would hold it until I couldn't anymore . I woul wet myself and then hurry up and change before anyone noticed. I still have issues with using the bathroom. I don't have accidents but I do get a lot of UTI's from holding it in too long.

They may think they are doing good but in reality, they are messing up their kid forever. He will associate the bathroom with physical pain every time.


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## warriorprincess (Nov 19, 2001)

That is so very sad.


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## ledzepplon (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tbone* 
The thought of that poor child being spanked for having an accident truly makes me sick to my stomach. It's called an accident for a reason, I wonder if they go around abusing each other if say someone accidently drops a glass.

No kidding. My thoughts exactly.







:


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

I would have said
"You are







: joking."

That is brilliant, the kid'll probably end up wetting the bed from psychological problems while being anally retentive during the day.

Okay, now that I've calmed down a bit. How about buying them one of the many non-punitive mainstream potty learning books?


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## eldadeedlit (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
Just one more horror story!

My inlaws did the same thing with my dn, along with begging him to "please, please poop on the potty for mama", and openly discussing his naughtiness and disgusting inability to potty train in front of everyone. Now he's 5 1/2, and he's always, always constipated. He regularly, like at least four times a week, poops one little tiny nugget out in his pants, and then goes around with it in there for the rest of the day. And quite he sticks his hand in his pants and itches, and then goes around with poop on his hands, too.

Do you think he's popular in kindergarten? Nobody wants to have him around. I love him dearly, but he's done that in my house so many times that I'm really grossed out by him, and hate to have him over.

oh gosh that is terrible. poor kid.


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## eldadeedlit (Jun 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zenenlightened* 
I was spanked when I had an accident with a switch and I was humiliated. After the spanking, I was made to wear my wet panties on my head. I didn't potty train until I was 6. I was scared of using the bathroom so I would hold it until I couldn't anymore . I woul wet myself and then hurry up and change before anyone noticed. I still have issues with using the bathroom. I don't have accidents but I do get a lot of UTI's from holding it in too long.

They may think they are doing good but in reality, they are messing up their kid forever. He will associate the bathroom with physical pain every time.











wow that is just unbelievably terrible too. I can't believe people actually do these sorts of things to kids! Insane!


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## mamaofthree (Jun 5, 2002)

It makes you wonder where people get this idea. I mean do you hit a child you are trying to teach to read? Or add? Ok amybe they do... I don't know. It si something that takes time. All I can think of is as this kid gets older all the stuff he will hide... if he has an accident all the underpants thrown away. Or sleeping in a peed in bed, just to not get hit.

And zenen: I am so sorry.

H


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## LightToast (Feb 8, 2007)

Ugh, these stories are so hard to read.

Maybe you could ask your sister and her husband how they'd feel if a trusted family member several times their size spanked or otherwise hurt or humiliated them for something they did by accident?

I wonder why they feel they need to be so harsh with their child. Were they treated this harshly when they were children?


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## peilover010202 (Nov 1, 2005)

http://www.aap.org/healthtopics/toilettraining.cfm

Here is a list of articles by the AAP. I couldn't find anything that blatantly said that you shouldn't spank a child. But, it does say to not get upset with accidents and not to use "dirty" language when referring to feces/urine. Perhaps that would help? I think the AAP is about as mainstream as you can get.

I would also link her up to this article from Dr. Sears:

Here is an excerpt (bolding mine):

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/10/t106600.asp

Praise success, overlook "failure," relax. One day I heard a joyful "yeah" coming from another room as our teenage daughter, Hayden, cheered our two-year-old's potty-chair deposit. There is no place for punishment in toilet- training, just as you wouldn't scold the beginning walker for tripping. *Serious long-term emotional problems can result from angry scolding or punitive attitudes toward accidents or resistance.* If you are struggling with your child over toileting and recognize negative feelings toward your child, get some help from trusted advisers or even a counselor. Your goal is for your child to emerge from toilet-training with a healthy self-image. Then he or she can tackle the next phase of development-sexual identity-feeling good about himself or herself. Try to relax-what's one more year in diapers?

-------------------

Beyond that, I would sit down with your sister and tell her you understand that her parenting method differs from yours. But, you want to speak with her openly about the potty-learning issue. Explain the FEAR you heard in dn's voice when his dad was getting ready to spank him. Print out this information and tell her that you've highlighted parts you find interesting. Tell her you've learned something about this too (make something up if you have to







). Explain to her that you won't be revisiting this topic with her again but that if she needs support or reassurance, you will be a sounding board for her, even if all she needs is to call and coplain to you about dn's 15th accident for the day.







I think just letting her know that it's normal to feel frustration will be helpful.


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## damyen's mommy (May 5, 2005)

uke







this whole thread...... I just don't know what to say. I want to hug all those babies and let them know this is not the right way to be treated and that it isn't ok.


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## peacelovingmama (Apr 28, 2006)

: This is one of the most disturbing threads I have read in a very long time. I am just heartsick at the thought of a child being hit while learning to use the potty. Even most pro-hitting folks I've come across seem to know that hitting/shaming during potty-learning is a big no-no and can emotionally and psychologically scar a child.

I'd check out some of the links posted in this thread (like peilover's -- hope I got that name right). And you shouldn't have too much trouble finding other material that spells out how damaging it is to use violence to "train" children to use the potty.

I'd also recommend doing some reseach to show them that their son is not behind schedule -- many kids learn this skill at age 3 or later. Violence can only impede the process. Oh, my heart just aches for that little boy.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Was thinking about this some more and realized I wouldn't train my dogs that way either. Wonder what they're basing their "philos." on? I really think you should recommend a visit/call to the ped. They'd likely listen to him/her.


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## tuansprincess (Oct 25, 2005)

bolding mine

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla* 
Let's not muddy this discussion with a debate about EC (elimination communication- teaching babies to use a potty/toilet rather than diapers.) *Most EC babies are fully capable of staying clean and dry long before they enter the "strong negative" stage of being 2 or 2.5.*
What we have here is a 2.5yo who HAS been using diapers for the past 2.5 years. *Developmentally it's a difficult time to learn how to use the toilet for the first time*- they want to be independent and NOT do what mama and papa want them to do, and games are far too interesting to pause them for a bathroom break.

Who is debating? All babies, not just "ec" ones are fully capable of staying clean and dry long before they enter the "strong negative" stage of being 2 or 2.5.

So why not help them learn before they reach that stage?

It's doubtful these parents are going to listen to any anti-spanking info, certainly not if you outright tell them "you're wrong and I'm right." I think if you don't teach them (the parents) a better method of potty training, they'll keep on spanking for "accidents."







How about a bribe/positive reinforcement, such as a sticker or a candy every time the child successfully uses the toilet/potty? *Then another reward* (such as new undies the child picks out?) after being reliably dry/clean for a while.

and then what do you do when each subsequent reward doesn't satiate them? You can't continue on forever w/ bigger and better rewards.

Hi - did you read my post?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tuansprincess* 
Well, if it was truly the case that humans are incapaple of controlling their sphincter and bladder muscles until 3 + years, what would the 95% of the world that doesn't use diapers do? Obviously, children (my little 4mos ds included!) are indeed capable of all the aspects of toileting minus the developmental milestone of being able to maneuver themselves onto an apropriate recepticle. This is what he relies on me to help him with.

Children in America are diaper-learned and subsequently potty-learned, or, un-diaper-learned. Children stuck in diapers lose the ability to recognize the need to go to the toilet and it is a hard thing (in most cases) for them to re-learn.

*I don't want to hiijack the OP thread. I just wanted to throw that out and clear the waters*.

Like I said, I don't want to go off-topic so this is my last public response.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

Quote:

This is one of the most disturbing threads I have read in a very long time. I am just heartsick at the thought of a child being hit while learning to use the potty.
I agree. This thread is just so sad to read







Its such an odd thing... if someone were doing this to an elderly parent in a nursing home I think that most people would be up in arms and absolutely horrified at treatment like this. But somehow its ok to do it to children who are learning







So distressing.


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## lanamommyphd07 (Feb 14, 2007)

I have an idea for your sister, if indeed it is SUCH an issue of control for the two of them to have the child using the potty so early. One--point out that it appears to be their need, not his. Two--switch him to cheapola pampers that are a bit loose or non-absorbant if they have disposies, or to a thinner cloth with no pins if they have cloth. That way, it becomes more and more uncomfortable for the wee one to wee the dipe. Unfortunately, this won't work if one beats the kid up for feeling uncomfortable. What the whole thing boils down to for the parents, however, is control. It's that mindset that will be costing them a lot in psych bills in the future.
Question: do they spank him on the poopy? (Smoooosh) That would make clean up worse, I'd imagine!!
I keep thinking, oh my gosh, my kid will have to go to school with kids like that! And I quit taking my dog to the dog park because I didn't like what the other owners did to their neurotic dogs. huh.


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

One book that your sister might really benefit from is "Don't Shoot the Dog" by Karen Pryor. It's not specific to potty training or even childrearing, but discusses reinforcement (both positive and negative) and its various uses. She does a good job of explaining why positive reinforcement is so much more effective than negative reinforcement in most cases.


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## Zonie (Nov 8, 2006)

I wouldn't attack their parenting style. They wont listen, and it will cause them to tune it out. Choose your words carefully. They really believe they are doing the right thing. They love their son, and they think this is how to teach him. They are not horrid people. They are just mistaken in a few areas of parenting.

Anyway... Perhaps you can give them alternatives. Maybe he can take his pants off and put them in the washer. Maybe he can sit there and watch Mommy clean the floor. (because that is what they are mad about. The floor)

Think of ways that might help him learn on his own. There are really fun ways to potty train. But, spankings aren't too fun.

My nephews learned by "making bubbles in the toilet" The harder they pee, the more bubbles they make. But, if they miss the water, it doesn't make bubbles.

Sit backwards on the toilet. That's kinda fun.


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## cinnamonamon (May 2, 2003)

I'm not sure why I just read all 3 pages of this. I wanted to puke after I read the OP.

My baby isn't quite 2 1/2 but I can just imagine him screaming "No daddy, please" and being scared out of his mind for something HE CANT CONTROL. Obviously, I'm preaching to the choir here.

Last summer ds1 was potty learning (at 3 1/2) -- he was pretty much done with diapers, but had lots of accidents still. My whole family (my mom & the 6 of us siblings & our families) all went camping together. My sister showed up (she has 4 kids) and said her 2 1/2 year old was potty learning too. She had started the week before. That day I witnessed her telling her daughter that if she didn't pee in the (nasty, scary, stinky "big hole") porta-potty, then peed her pants she would get a spanking. And sure enough... My ds1 was afraid of the toilet for the first day or so, so he peed his pants or peed on a tree, then he got used to it enough to be okay (he watched us go, etc.).

A month or so later she was visiting my house & ds1 came out with new clothes on. I asked him if he had put the old ones on the back porch & my sister looked at me funny. I explained that when he peed his clothes, he took them off, put them in the "peed on clothes bucket" on the back porch & then redressed himself. She was so surprised; she sighed and said her daughter would "lie right to their faces" and say she wasn't wet/poopy. Not being able to figure out why she was surprised I asked, "well, don't you spank her when she has accidents?" and she responded that they did... there was no lightbulb going off moment & she didn't notice my "what are you, dumb as a box of rocks" look, so I gently said, "well, maybe she's afraid to tell you because she doesn't want to get hit." Not long after I found out that they'd stopped all potty learning & she was back in diapers full time. She still doesn't understand why her daughter regressed from potty learning so much when she'd done so well the first week or so. At least she stopped spanking her for it.

The funny thing is, the OP's post was worse to me; that moment of the little boy's sheer terror & fear that his daddy was going to hit him -- that moment is worse than the actual physical pain. Every. Time.


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## PikkuMyy (Mar 26, 2004)

I wouldn't even address the spanking issue. Obviously they believe VERy strongly in it.

I would address it merely through "this is the best way to potty train as shown by studies" and "here is what happens behaviorally when positive v. punitive reinforcement is given with potty training."

I'm a behaviorist who works with kids with special needs and it's 100% accepted in the strict behaviorist world, which is pretty mainstream, that you NEVEr punish but you only reinforce with postiive and negative reinforcement. BTW - negative reinforcement has nothing to do with punishment, it has to do with taking away v. giving (positive). So for us adults, the negative reinforcement for using the toilet is that we get to leave the bathroom and go on our way. It's also that the urgency is taken away.

But kids often need positive reinforcement as well. They needs lots of planned opportunities for success (give kids chances to use the potty before they "need" to so you don't develop the pattern of waiting until it's almost too late to get to the toilet) and make everything positive.

As PPs have said, just through strict behaviorism (with TONS of studies to back it up), you never associate pain with something you are trying to teach, or it will go very badly. This goes for animals and humans. They are setting up their child for a LONG future of bathroom problems.


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## mommyofboys3 (Feb 8, 2007)

i am so sorry i can only imagine how hard that was for you to hear...i dont think they understand that will only make him want to potty less...thats not right..i hope you can get through to them...







:


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## mamabear3 (May 6, 2006)

Thanks everyone.







She is coming to visit by herself next week and I think I will try to be nonchalant about mentioning I had found some effective ways of potty learning. Also, maybe she will see the positive way we handle ds's PLing.

Also I think I will send her the Dr Phil link, possibly Dr sears too. Also the AAP has a general statement, but it is clear. I think I will encourage her to take him to the doc and chat with him about it.

I am just heartbroken. We haven't stopped talking about it around here.

FWIW, we were abused as kids... Sexual by my father, physical and emotional by my mother. It has taken me many years and tons of counselling and a fantastic homeopath.

She just started counselling and is using allopathic medicine. I imagine her process will be long and hard. Not to mention she lives next to her in laws who think this is a great way to raise your kids.









Step by step. I just have to be patient and hope they figure it out. Plus remember not to take parenting advice. Some of the stuff she says... wow.

Thanks again.


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## rabrog (Dec 20, 2005)

I've been told by a therapist that the way you treat your child during potty training will affect them their whole lives. It's a very sensitve time in a child's development and what they are doing will scar him.

Does it not register to them that when the child is screaming "no no Dad" he is afraid of them? How is that helping anything and is that the relationship they want with their child?

I hope he finds a good therapist when he's older - it sounds like he's going to need it.

Jenn


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## mom22girls (May 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *orangefoot* 
It is absolutely developmentally feasible to not pee in your clothes at age 2.5. It has become unusual for many reasons but in the 90s it was normal.

*May* not - depends on the child. I'm talking mentally ready as well as physically. My mom was amazed that I was trained by two - kids as young as 18 mos. are physically ready. My brother, on the other hand would happily play outdoors in freezing cold weather with wet pants rather than come in. Kids used to potty learn earlier before the advent of "stay dry" disposables, but many don't feel the wet/dry difference - and then again, some of them don't care..


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## beckyand3littlemonsters (Sep 16, 2006)

:
omg how could any one smack a child for haveing an accident, thats just wrong








i'm trying to potty train my ds cameron at moment i've just put some underpants on him and brought his potty down, he has had an accident but so what it happens i just took of his wet pants, put him some clean ones on and asked him to tell me when he needs to do a wee/poo. as a pp already said its called accident for a reason and he deffinately shouldn't be punished for it


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tuansprincess* 
Like I said, I don't want to go off-topic so this is my last public response.

I think Ruthla was just pointingt out that EC is irrelavant to the OP's situation and it is pointless to talk about how an ECed child compares to a diapered one.

I also suspect her talk of rewards was an effort to steer the OP's sister towards something mainstream that she could comprehend, a lesser of two evils so to speak. No one is talking about the ideal way to do things on this thread, just trying to brainstorm ways to minimize the damage, ie asking a doctors advice and having a rewards chart.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

This looks like a pretty balanced article:

http://www.tinytots.com/featured_inf...first_time.htm

It favors an early approach to toilet training, which would validate their position -- but it also says this:

Quote:

Punishment has no place in toilet training. It always makes the child uncooperative and also hurts the child's self esteem. Spanking, threatening to punish, or scolding the child for accidents is always counterproductive. At its extreme, punitive toilet training in the hands of a volatile parent or other caretaker can escalate to child abuse; encopresis interpreted by the parent as deliberate is the second most common trigger for lethal child abuse.12.


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## daniedb (Aug 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zenenlightened* 
I was spanked when I had an accident with a switch and I was humiliated. After the spanking, I was made to wear my wet panties on my head. I didn't potty train until I was 6. I was scared of using the bathroom so I would hold it until I couldn't anymore . I woul wet myself and then hurry up and change before anyone noticed. I still have issues with using the bathroom. I don't have accidents but I do get a lot of UTI's from holding it in too long.

They may think they are doing good but in reality, they are messing up their kid forever. He will associate the bathroom with physical pain every time.











I couldn't read any further before posting. I'm so sorry, that must have been incredibly humiliating.


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## daniedb (Aug 8, 2004)

mamabear3 - I'm sorry that you had a traumatic childhood. Hopefully, your sister will be able to heal her past trauma instead of allowing her son to carry that pain into his adulthood.

This thread is just so hard to read.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabear3* 

She just started counselling and is using allopathic medicine. I imagine her process will be long and hard. Not to mention she lives next to her in laws who think this is a great way to raise your kids.









Step by step. I just have to be patient and hope they figure it out. Plus remember not to take parenting advice. Some of the stuff she says... wow.

She's lucky to have you.


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## irinam (Oct 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tuansprincess* 

Children in America are diaper-learned and subsequently potty-learned, or, un-diaper-learned. Children stuck in diapers lose the ability to recognize the need to go to the toilet and it is a hard thing (in most cases) for them to re-learn.

I agree with this statement. BUT. It does not help the OP's case.

OP - can you let your sister read this thread?


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom* 
I think Ruthla was just pointingt out that EC is irrelavant to the OP's situation and it is pointless to talk about how an ECed child compares to a diapered one.

I also suspect her talk of rewards was an effort to steer the OP's sister towards something mainstream that she could comprehend, a lesser of two evils so to speak. No one is talking about the ideal way to do things on this thread, just trying to brainstorm ways to minimize the damage, ie asking a doctors advice and having a rewards chart.

Exactly. This particular child is already 2.5 and "diaper trained." The goal here is to help the OP help her sister stop abusing the toddler. We're not defining the ideal way to teach a child to use the toilet.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)




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## mommymarliah (Jun 29, 2004)

I have nothing constructive to offer. But reading that made me feel like I was going to puke.

I tell ya it does make me want to hit someone, the darned parents who think its ok to spank over a child not having full control of their body yet! Its awful that any child would be treated that way.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabear3* 
Well, he ds had had an accident and she was telling him that he had to use the potty and so on. Well then she calls her dh in and tells him. He says something I can't understand and my nephew says "NO, NO DAD!"









Given your family history, any chance that your BIL is also abusing your nephew? Your sister?

I'm glad that you have been able to move past your abuse, and that you found people to work with. Definitely bring it up with her when she comes. Talk to her about breaking family patterns. And give her lots of love.


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

In my earlier post I was in no way saying that the parents were right to have such high expectations of their son that any 'failure' was intentional. I just wanted to challenge the previously stated assertion that children are not able to do this at two and a half even after being used to using nappies.

How many potties do they have in their house? Could you buy them one as a gift so they have more than one? Could you suggest that your nephew might want some privacy to use the potty so they shouldn't be around him when he does it? Perhaps this would allow him to relax a little and not be sitting there waiting to get hit my one of them.

Is your sister disgusted by the mess? Does she hate having to touch the wet clothes and sort him out?

She needs some hints on how to deal with accidents but I haven't really read anything other than 'don't make a fuss' has anyone got anything more step-by-step this-is-what-you-do? Could you pass on some old clothes to them to use for a while or tell them that you have a particular cloth and bucket which you keep for cleaning up and that your dc put their wet clothes straight in the washing machine? If everything was a bit wet I used to stand mine in the bath and swoosh the shower over their legs to freshen them up. Maybe there is too much room for her to use freezing cold water there







but it would be a hands off way to clean him up.

Since reading your first post I keep seeing your little nephew in my mind's eye and he is flinching away from a big dark figure.







I hope he can be things get better soon so that he can avoid this awfulness but please don't feel bad about yourself if you can't change your sister's behaviour towards him. It is not your fault.


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## Emmalina (Apr 2, 2006)

Sorry I haven't had time to read all of these posts but I just want to register my shock. When I read your post I actually gasped. I am sending hope to your nephew. I wish there was something I could do. I am sending love to hime and hope his parents come to their senses.

x


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Another reading suggestion:

http://www.amazon.com/No-Cry-Potty-T.../dp/0071476903

Elizabeth Pantley has a "No Cry Potty Training Solution."


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## babymakesthree (Oct 6, 2006)

: poor babies, NO ONE deserves to be treated that way. Seriously makes me cry and hold on tight to my napping little girl.


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## DesireeH (Mar 22, 2003)




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## Mom2Joseph (May 31, 2006)

No advice, just a hug. This post made me cry. I will be praying for this little boy.


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## minkajane (Jun 5, 2005)

Your post just gave me a light bulb moment about my cousin. I stayed with my aunt and uncle for two weeks when my cousin was 3 1/2. He used to hide behind doors or chairs to poop his pants. I don't remember them spanking him for that, but they did spank for other things so I wouldn't be surprised. He was almost 5 when he was finally potty trained. The rest of the family attributed it to him being "spoiled," but I firmly believe he had a fear of going to the bathroom, most likely because of punishment for accidents.

This also reminds me of the Pearls' method of potty training. He told his son that he was too big for diapers and that since he wouldn't go in the toilet, he'd have to be cleaned up outside. So he took his son outside and hosed him off. I don't remember what season it was, but it couldn't have been summer because the boy wouldn't have minded it much then. It didn't take long for his son to use the toilet then, he says, but I guarantee that boy is going to have severe body issues from that alone, not to mention the rest of the Pearls' "discipline."


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

This is the first thread that's made me cry in a long time.


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## 2bluefish (Apr 27, 2006)

OMG, that Pearl story reminded me of a funny story. DD went through a "playing in her poop" phase. At my wits end after one naptime, I decided I was going to make it unpleasant for her to do it again. I took her outside and hosed her off, clothes and all (our weather is warm all year round). She just looked at me and laughed - she loved it!! And I sat there feeling very foolish  Anyway, this is a rough subject, so maybe the story will add a little levity. I've seen people acting this way about potty training too, and it sure wasn't helping...


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## MaxMommy (Feb 16, 2007)

I have no help, just want to say that I'm heartbroken for your nephew and for you and your sister as well.

I read this thread last night before bed and could not stop thinking about it. If your BIL hit your sister this way it would be grounds for assault charges, it's so very sad that a little child has no voice in this situation.

I'm sure you just want to wrap your arms around the little guy and never let him go.

Your nephew and sister are lucky to have you, I'm hoping the best for you all.


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## marlee (Aug 29, 2005)

I only read the first post as I am too upset by this to read more. This is so heartbreaking.














:







:







I will pray for your nephew and his parents.







:


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## J's Mombee (Aug 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lalaland42* 

GL. Can we have her phone number, pretty please?







:

This would be humiliating... and in the abusive mom's mind humiliation seems to work. So yes, I am all for us getting the phone number...







... I say we start out showing anger, then educate


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## mom22girls (May 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *minkajane* 
He used to hide behind doors or chairs to poop his pants.

I hope no one thought I punished my daughter, but she would do this once she potty trained for pee, then she would ask for a diaper to poop in. She liked her privacy (even if it was in a diaper) and would sneak away to poop. Then come announce she needed a change....that's just how it went with us. My mom always said that no child goes to college in diapers, so I kinda let my kids take the lead (oh, yeah, and I'm lazy too!).

Have you talked to your sister yet??


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Yeah, my kids both hid behind things to poop in diapers too. Just a privacy thing.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Mine liked privacy, too. And he didn't start using a toilet for bowel movements until he was 5, either.


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