# Why are some mainstreamers so ANTI-AP?



## Chavelamomela (Sep 25, 2006)

I find it incredible when we APers get bashed for being "too into" our kids.
They also complain that the AP community is very negative, all about criticism about mainstream, rather than focusing on the positives.

At first I thought the hostility to APers is b/c the Mainstreamers feel guilty, and they have this inferiority complex about their own parenting. But then they tell us that they feel we're too negative (about mainstream parenting) and that the way we speak makes them feel inadequate, like they aren't doing "enough" as parents.

Um, it sure sounds like a guilty conscious here, but what else do you think it is?

Why are they so hostile to us? Are we too "militant" about AP, and is that turning them off?

Thoughts please....


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## Sagesgirl (Nov 22, 2001)

I don't think they think we are too hostile, but I do think that they _think_ we are. Make sense? Some people consider doing things any other way from the "norm" to be a direct attack on the norm.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

I knoe many AP mamas who are super against "mainstream"









It goes both ways.


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

Well, I think that there are some who are very, very militant about AP. I don't think that's a good way to spread the messages personally. We preach about GD, and well, I think we should apply what we speak. Not everyone has enough time to cloth diaper, or enough money to stay at home for example. I was a single mom and had to work when my kids were young, and so they went to daycare. I was busy and simply did not have the time for cloth-diapering, and some would consider that anti-AP. My youngest dd ended up sleeping in a crib because she just would not co-sleep comfrotably with me. We didn't do CIO or anything, but she was most comfortable in a crib, and I could see myself being attacked for that as well. She is happy, healthy, and attached today, despite my "mainstream" approach. My older dd co-slept because that was best for her, and I was always praised for that, but when I had my younger dd, I didn't speak about where she slept.

On the other hand, I think most of us who are AP are pretty easy-going and offer advice, but back off when we need to. I think those are the majority. For mainstreamers, I think that most of them really feel like they are right, and they truly believe in what they do, and just like us, they don't like people "attacking" their beliefs, which is what I have come to believe that they feel AP does. How they view it that way, I don't know. Whatever..but that's what I do feel like they think. Some of them are also really up on their high horse, because they are backed up by all the "experts", so they feel like they are right and everyone else is wrong and blinded by lies. They feel like what they are doing is right, so everyone else ought to do it as well. I do think there are those that are out there though, that may feel guilty that they can't parent the way they want to, and feel like they are forced to parent the mainstream way for fear of what family, friends, and the like will think.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

I've never really seen any hostility. Can you give specific examples? If anyone said anything to me, I'd worry less about their opinion and more about their manners.


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## Benji'sMom (Sep 14, 2004)

The first time I ever heard about AP I was like "They do WHAT??!! Sleep with their kids, huh? wha? Why would anyone do THAT? Constant affection/physical contact/unconditional love?!Those kids are going to be *spoiled*!!!" So I guess I was one of those people who thought APers were too "into" their kids, and I was anti-AP because I thought you had to be tough with kids otherwise they'd be brats, lazy, whatever. I guess I had never seen a kid raised AP so I had never seen a kid THRIVE on love and affection and gentleness. I just didn't know any better. And of course I thought, at the time, that my parents' own way of shaming, spanking, humiliation, etc., was the way you were supposed to raise kids, because look at me, I turned out to be a very nice well-behaved kid who was not a brat, so I must have been raised right, yk? So I was anti-AP because I thought AP was bad for kids. At the time if I had gotten into a discussion with an APer, I would have told them they were raising spoiled brats who would never accomplish anything. This was way before I had kids, btw, so it had nothing to do with guilt over being a bad parent, because I wasn't a parent.


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

I think humans find raising children extremely important, and nearly all humans have views on the correct way to raise children. Children are important to humans, thus the intensity. I think nearly all parents intensely believe in their way of parenting, whatever style that is.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angelpie545* 
On the other hand, I think most of us who are AP are pretty easy-going and offer advice, but back off when we need to. I think those are the majority. For mainstreamers, I think that most of them really feel like they are right, and they truly believe in what they do, and just like us, they don't like people "attacking" their beliefs, which is what I have come to believe that they feel AP does. How they view it that way, I don't know. Whatever..but that's what I do feel like they think. Some of them are also really up on their high horse, because they are backed up by all the "experts", so they feel like they are right and everyone else is wrong and blinded by lies. They feel like what they are doing is right, so everyone else ought to do it as well. I do think there are those that are out there though, that may feel guilty that they can't parent the way they want to, and feel like they are forced to parent the mainstream way for fear of what family, friends, and the like will think.


Actually I have found the opposite. I find that this attitute:

"Some of them are also really up on their high horse, because they are backed up by all the "experts", so they feel like they are right and everyone else is wrong and blinded by lies. They feel like what they are doing is right, so everyone else ought to do it as well. "

is much more common among AP parents. A lot of AP parents that I encounter seem to be unable to understand that someone else might have also done their research, but came to a different conclusion, so deride non-AP parents as ignorant and uninformed.

Personally, I don't think that I am somehow the font of all parenting knowledge, and have no interest in "advising" other parents who are perfectly capable of coming to their own informed decisions that may differ from mine.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AngelBee* 
I knoe many AP mamas who are super against "mainstream"









It goes both ways.









:


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

My new friend balked about me having to bring my baby places after DH goes to bed and that I just wouldn't leave him in the other room to watch TV I need to "get unattached" as she put it. She also told me I need to stop BFing him and went nuts when I told her that I'm not weaning until at least age 2. OMG it was starting to piss me off.


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BellinghamCrunchie* 
I think humans find raising children extremely important, and nearly all humans have views on the correct way to raise children. Children are important to humans, thus the intensity. I think nearly all parents intensely believe in their way of parenting, whatever style that is.

Yep. Sad as it may seem, I know a lot of spankers do fear that their child will turn into some uncontrollable monster if they don't, its the love that they want to make a good person that they think this will accomplish this. I know some of my family laugh at the way I am, but thats ok. The reality is, all of our kids will probably turn out fine, and they'll all think we're just as goofy and embarassing as we thought our parents were.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *darsmama* 
I know a lot of spankers do fear that their child will turn into some uncontrollable monster if they don't, its the love that they want to make a good person that they think this will accomplish this.l

I always figured they wanted to control their kids and used physical force to instill fear in them. Do what I say or I will hit you and you will feel pain kind of thing. Or at least that was how it was for my stepfather. It had nothing to do with him wanting to make me a good person.


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## Chavelamomela (Sep 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
I've never really seen any hostility. Can you give specific examples? If anyone said anything to me, I'd worry less about their opinion and more about their manners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by velochic
I've never really seen any hostility. Can you give specific examples? If anyone said anything to me, I'd worry less about their opinion and more about their manners.

Okay, I will paraphrase some comments that were said to me about AP by friends who are mainstreamers:

Quote:
"The totally child centered theories have produced a couple extremely selfish generations. No one member of a family can be so much the center of attention."

Quote:
"AP, like most systems, whether psychological, childraising, self help, wellness,etc. carries the assumption that one's cultural and familial upbringing is not sufficient, but one is always in need of a higher, more knowledgeable somebody to be there with all the answers and a supply of "feel good pills". One of the first steps in controlling is to
undermine the confidence of the victim to make informed choices and implement them. Sorry for the choice of words. Although victimizing is not usually the intention it is the practical result."

And other mainstreamers who I know have said to me that they are uncomrfortable with the whole AP "culture" and the inferiority and inadequacy some of the AP advocates make nonAP parents feel. The whole "cosleeping, slinging, having baby attached to your hip all the time" is anti every single thing in their prenting style.

ARGGGHHHH!!!!!

My goal in discussing AP with other parents is not to "preach" a philosophy of AP to everyone, merely to discuss ideas, etc. I feel like head every time I speak with these mainstreamers (who are otherwise nice people)

ACKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!

Oh well...

PS...I am actually not even all that AP! I am only semi-crunchy, but pretty crunchy among my friends and community

And don't tell me not to hang with these women - they are generally nice people who have no idea what AP is all about and don't understand why parenting shouldn't be about independance.[/b]


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## aprilushka (Aug 28, 2005)

I think there are just people, on both sides, who get riled up either because it makes them feel better about themselves or for some other reason.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chavelamomela* 
At first I thought the hostility to APers is b/c the Mainstreamers feel guilty, and they have this inferiority complex about their own parenting. But then they tell us that they feel we're too negative (about mainstream parenting) and that the way we speak makes them feel inadequate, like they aren't doing "enough" as parents.

Um, it sure sounds like a guilty conscious here, but what else do you think it is?

Why are they so hostile to us? Are we too "militant" about AP, and is that turning them off?

Thoughts please....

I am "on the fence" for a reason. I can tell you right now what I believe the problem is because I talk about mainstream vs AP with moms all the time. I can tell you right now I DO NOT FEEL GUILTY ABOUT MY PARENTING, and at times I am very critical of the AP camp. Not only will I tell you Why, I will also tell you Why other moms feel the same way.
APers make it sound like there way is the only way. That the only way you can be attached and bonded and essentially a good mother to your children is if you abide by these certain "rules". A decade ago, attachment parenting was meeting your babies needs and doing what was best for them, while also doing what is good for you as a mother as well. While it was more child centered -- there was no SET rules. I had a baby who hated to be in a sling, cried himself to sleep, hated to be held all the time, liked his plastic buckets, and didn't want to cosleep -- however I did my best to meet all his needs and try to make him an attached, bonded child. I couldn't force him to MY ideals. There are APers who call other mothers ABUSERS and make mothers our who formula feed like they are poisoning their children. There are lots of AP parents who formula feed their children and are attached, caring parents. Just because someone utilizes a swing, bumbo seat, bouncer, or stroller doesn't make them bad or not AP. The word ABUSE is thrown around so casually and carelessly that it makes one wonder, does one really know what ABUSE is?
I think another problem that "mainstreamers" or "on the fence" people like myself see is that its either Black or White, not grey. There is no place for moms to be authentic about certain aspects in their lives on this forum because to do so, they would be called names, judged, etc. Women and men making choices for their family that benefit themselves personally or their family as a whole is looked down on -- even though it better serves the entire family as a whole. A woman who works and doesn't pump full time is looked down on, a woman who choses not to tandem nurse or decides that 12, 18 or 24 months its time to wean is judged, families that chose not to share a bed with their children is frowned upon -- even if the child sleeps in a side car or in their own room, and the list could go on and on.
So yes, its a HUGE turn off. I know lots of wonderful parents who want to avoid "crunchy" mothers not because they think they are weird, but because they don't want to make friends with someone who is constantly judging their parenting, being critical of it, and thinking they "abuse" their kids.
Anything IMO could be labeled abuse or bad for children or bad for families (including AP) -- I think its bad to throw stones at other mothers when you dont know them, their backgrounds, or their families.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aprilushka* 
I think there are just people, on both sides, who get riled up either because it makes them feel better about themselves or for some other reason.

Nah, some of us really get sick of the blatant judgement.


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## Wildcrafter (Mar 11, 2003)

I think with me, I felt I had to defend myself constantly because family on both sides were giving me a hard time about the way I parented. Most (including mom and mom in law) were horrified that I was even breastfeeding at all. And their disdain for the sling was evidemnt. I'm sure I came off pretty edgy that first year with my first child. At one point I had my mother in law and sister in law at my house demanding I let ds cry it out in a swing or they weren't leaving. They were sick of seeing me hold that baby!!!!! It was a tough year and I ended up blowing up several times and acting not very much like a gentle discipline mom. Maybe others ap moms come from that standpoint, of having to defend themselves and thier kids?

Now that I'm breastfeeding & co-sleeping 18 month old twins and defending my 4 year old's right to suck his thumb, nothing really shocks them anymore. I just gets looks of puzzlement when I say my kids don't watch any tv, or we don't spank, etc. I can tell they're all bracing themselves for the "homeschooling" announcement!!

It's been hard and much of the family does not like me anymore - that used to matter but now it doesn't. But no one says boo to me anymore!


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

This sort of thing goes beyond parenting. There are conservatives who get riled up when they see protesters against the war, and there are those who oppose the war who get riled up when they see the "United We stand" bumper stickers.

I think that it is partly human nature to stand up for what you believe is right. But it takes a mature and multi leveled personality to be able to acknowledge there are many shades of grey to certain issues. To be able to phrase things in a way that is not accusatory, such as "Co-sleeping didn't work for our family with my 2nd son, he just needed his space." vs. "Well I guess my marriage is more important to me than it is to you, my spouse and I need alone time." goes a long way.


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## aprilushka (Aug 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence* 
Nah, some of us really get sick of the blatant judgement.

I think of the blatant judgement as getting "riled up"


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess* 
This sort of thing goes beyond parenting. There are conservatives who get riled up when they see protesters against the war, and there are those who oppose the war who get riled up when they see the "United We stand" bumper stickers.

I think that it is partly human nature to stand up for what you believe is right. But it takes a mature and multi leveled personality to be able to acknowledge there are many shades of grey to certain issues. To be able to phrase things in a way that is not accusatory, such as "Co-sleeping didn't work for our family with my 2nd son, he just needed his space." vs. "Well I guess my marriage is more important to me than it is to you, my spouse and I need alone time." goes a long way.

I agree that we should use non accusatory language, but I wouldn't pretend that the cosleeping didn't work because of my kid if the real reason was to do with my relationship with my spouse. That seems to tie in with what OnTheFence said:

"There is no place for moms to be authentic about certain aspects in their lives on this forum because to do so, they would be called names, judged, etc. Women and men making choices for their family that benefit themselves personally or their family as a whole is looked down on -- even though it better serves the entire family as a whole. "

I don't think there is any shame in admitting to making decisions with the welfare of the whole family in mind, not just the kids. But you seem to be saying that we shouldn't admit to it, and should pretend that all parenting decisions are made in a vaccuum that takes only the child into account. That seems to be the problem - everyone is so holier than thou, people don't feel free to be honest about problems and difficulties.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

I have been told attachment parenting is like a cult, and that it was nothing more then brain washing and early conditioning. That was probably one of thing biggest insults to me as a parent and as a person. It sucked.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
I have been told attachment parenting is like a cult, and that it was nothing more then brain washing and early conditioning. That was probably one of thing biggest insults to me as a parent and as a person. It sucked.

Was that person deeply religious, by chance? I haven't ever heard of AP as a "cult." A very odd choice of words.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 

I don't think there is any shame in admitting to making decisions with the welfare of the whole family in mind, not just the kids. But you seem to be saying that we shouldn't admit to it, and should pretend that all parenting decisions are made in a vaccuum that takes only the child into account. That seems to be the problem - everyone is so holier than thou, people don't feel free to be honest about problems and difficulties.

Well I'd try not to read too much into my posts. Most of them are made with a toddler jumping on my lap. My example was to show only the wording or phrasing that is used, and the difference in accusatory language. I did not mean for my response to come across as "one excuse is better than the other" Just one is worded in a friendlier, more accepting manner.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess* 
Well I'd try not to read too much into my posts. Most of them are made with a toddler jumping on my lap. My example was to show only the wording or phrasing that is used, and the difference in accusatory language. I did not mean for my response to come across as "one excuse is better than the other" Just one is worded in a friendlier, more accepting manner.

Sorry, I can see I misunderstood!


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama* 
Was that person deeply religious, by chance? I haven't ever heard of AP as a "cult." A very odd choice of words.

No, she said it was because of my "unequivocal approach to sleeping and breastfeeding" because I refuse to let DD CIO and I refuse to wean. Having such concrete beliefs, according to her, is unhealthy, and only people in cults follow such strict guidelines.

I tried to explain to her that they weren't guidelines so much as they were things I wasn't willing to compromise on. Not being willing to compromise on certain things, according to her, is also cult-like. What ev..


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## Imogen (Jul 25, 2006)

Until recently, this whole debate between mainstream and AP was a concern for me. I was reading so much stuff that I felt was informing me that I was essentially a 'bad' parent. I didn't breastfeed, and to some, that is akin to abuse... suggestions that I abused my son by not breastfeeding him are incredibly offensive to me.

On the other hand, I co-sleep and have for nearly 2 years. I practice gentle discipline and I have also tried to make a real effort towards having a more consensual relationship with my son over the past couple of months.

So I actually incorporate/d ideas that are considered both mainstream and AP into my parenting practices.

And now... Well I refuse to feel that I have to justify my parenting choices to anyone else. I carried my son for 9 months, I gave birth to him, I gently rocked him to sleep, I hold and nurse him when he is sick, I play with him, I spend as much time as I can participating in activities designed to help his development, I cook for him, I bathe him, I read him his stories, I laugh with him and I have cried with him. I love him with all of my heart. He is without doubt, the love of my life and I refuse to feel that I am anything but a devoted Mother to my child









So my feeling is now this... for those who choose to judge my parenting choices, whether they are considered AP or mainstream. I raise my son, you do not









Blessings


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

I haven't got the multi post function figured out, but Shar, I understand where you are coming from. I had the same stepdad.







But I do know a couple of parents who do spank their children with the intention/thinking that they are doing good. As hard as that may be for many of us to understand/comprehend.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence* 
I am "on the fence" for a reason. I can tell you right now what I believe the problem is because I talk about mainstream vs AP with moms all the time. I can tell you right now I DO NOT FEEL GUILTY ABOUT MY PARENTING, and at times I am very critical of the AP camp. Not only will I tell you Why, I will also tell you Why other moms feel the same way.
APers make it sound like there way is the only way. That the only way you can be attached and bonded and essentially a good mother to your children is if you abide by these certain "rules". A decade ago, attachment parenting was meeting your babies needs and doing what was best for them, while also doing what is good for you as a mother as well. While it was more child centered -- there was no SET rules. I had a baby who hated to be in a sling, cried himself to sleep, hated to be held all the time, liked his plastic buckets, and didn't want to cosleep -- however I did my best to meet all his needs and try to make him an attached, bonded child. I couldn't force him to MY ideals. There are APers who call other mothers ABUSERS and make mothers our who formula feed like they are poisoning their children. There are lots of AP parents who formula feed their children and are attached, caring parents. Just because someone utilizes a swing, bumbo seat, bouncer, or stroller doesn't make them bad or not AP. The word ABUSE is thrown around so casually and carelessly that it makes one wonder, does one really know what ABUSE is?
I think another problem that "mainstreamers" or "on the fence" people like myself see is that its either Black or White, not grey. There is no place for moms to be authentic about certain aspects in their lives on this forum because to do so, they would be called names, judged, etc. Women and men making choices for their family that benefit themselves personally or their family as a whole is looked down on -- even though it better serves the entire family as a whole. A woman who works and doesn't pump full time is looked down on, a woman who choses not to tandem nurse or decides that 12, 18 or 24 months its time to wean is judged, families that chose not to share a bed with their children is frowned upon -- even if the child sleeps in a side car or in their own room, and the list could go on and on.
So yes, its a HUGE turn off. I know lots of wonderful parents who want to avoid "crunchy" mothers not because they think they are weird, but because they don't want to make friends with someone who is constantly judging their parenting, being critical of it, and thinking they "abuse" their kids.
Anything IMO could be labeled abuse or bad for children or bad for families (including AP) -- I think its bad to throw stones at other mothers when you dont know them, their backgrounds, or their families.

What can I say OTF, but yep, yep, yep.


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence* 
I am "on the fence" for a reason. I can tell you right now what I believe the problem is because I talk about mainstream vs AP with moms all the time. I can tell you right now I DO NOT FEEL GUILTY ABOUT MY PARENTING, and at times I am very critical of the AP camp. Not only will I tell you Why, I will also tell you Why other moms feel the same way.
APers make it sound like there way is the only way. That the only way you can be attached and bonded and essentially a good mother to your children is if you abide by these certain "rules". A decade ago, attachment parenting was meeting your babies needs and doing what was best for them, while also doing what is good for you as a mother as well. While it was more child centered -- there was no SET rules. I had a baby who hated to be in a sling, cried himself to sleep, hated to be held all the time, liked his plastic buckets, and didn't want to cosleep -- however I did my best to meet all his needs and try to make him an attached, bonded child. I couldn't force him to MY ideals. There are APers who call other mothers ABUSERS and make mothers our who formula feed like they are poisoning their children. There are lots of AP parents who formula feed their children and are attached, caring parents. Just because someone utilizes a swing, bumbo seat, bouncer, or stroller doesn't make them bad or not AP. The word ABUSE is thrown around so casually and carelessly that it makes one wonder, does one really know what ABUSE is?
I think another problem that "mainstreamers" or "on the fence" people like myself see is that its either Black or White, not grey. There is no place for moms to be authentic about certain aspects in their lives on this forum because to do so, they would be called names, judged, etc. Women and men making choices for their family that benefit themselves personally or their family as a whole is looked down on -- even though it better serves the entire family as a whole. A woman who works and doesn't pump full time is looked down on, a woman who choses not to tandem nurse or decides that 12, 18 or 24 months its time to wean is judged, families that chose not to share a bed with their children is frowned upon -- even if the child sleeps in a side car or in their own room, and the list could go on and on.
So yes, its a HUGE turn off. I know lots of wonderful parents who want to avoid "crunchy" mothers not because they think they are weird, but because they don't want to make friends with someone who is constantly judging their parenting, being critical of it, and thinking they "abuse" their kids.
Anything IMO could be labeled abuse or bad for children or bad for families (including AP) -- I think its bad to throw stones at other mothers when you dont know them, their backgrounds, or their families.









:







You really summed it up nicely for me.

Shay


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Imogen* 
Until recently, this whole debate between mainstream and AP was a concern for me. I was reading so much stuff that I felt was informing me that I was essentially a 'bad' parent. I didn't breastfeed, and to some, that is akin to abuse... suggestions that I abused my son by not breastfeeding him are incredibly offensive to me.

On the other hand, I co-sleep and have for nearly 2 years. I practice gentle discipline and I have also tried to make a real effort towards having a more consensual relationship with my son over the past couple of months.

So I actually incorporate/d ideas that are considered both mainstream and AP into my parenting practices.

And now... Well I refuse to feel that I have to justify my parenting choices to anyone else. I carried my son for 9 months, I gave birth to him, I gently rocked him to sleep, I hold and nurse him when he is sick, I play with him, I spend as much time as I can participating in activities designed to help his development, I cook for him, I bathe him, I read him his stories, I laugh with him and I have cried with him. I love him with all of my heart. He is without doubt, the love of my life and I refuse to feel that I am anything but a devoted Mother to my child









So my feeling is now this... for those who choose to judge my parenting choices, whether they are considered AP or mainstream. I raise my son, you do not









Blessings

That is a good attitude to have. I mean, we all thought the teenage years were tough. Whew!


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## gentlebirthmothr (Jul 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence* 
I am "on the fence" for a reason. I can tell you right now what I believe the problem is because I talk about mainstream vs AP with moms all the time. I can tell you right now I DO NOT FEEL GUILTY ABOUT MY PARENTING, and at times I am very critical of the AP camp. Not only will I tell you Why, I will also tell you Why other moms feel the same way.
APers make it sound like there way is the only way. That the only way you can be attached and bonded and essentially a good mother to your children is if you abide by these certain "rules". A decade ago, attachment parenting was meeting your babies needs and doing what was best for them, while also doing what is good for you as a mother as well. While it was more child centered -- there was no SET rules. I had a baby who hated to be in a sling, cried himself to sleep, hated to be held all the time, liked his plastic buckets, and didn't want to cosleep -- however I did my best to meet all his needs and try to make him an attached, bonded child. I couldn't force him to MY ideals. There are APers who call other mothers ABUSERS and make mothers our who formula feed like they are poisoning their children. There are lots of AP parents who formula feed their children and are attached, caring parents. Just because someone utilizes a swing, bumbo seat, bouncer, or stroller doesn't make them bad or not AP. The word ABUSE is thrown around so casually and carelessly that it makes one wonder, does one really know what ABUSE is?
I think another problem that "mainstreamers" or "on the fence" people like myself see is that its either Black or White, not grey. There is no place for moms to be authentic about certain aspects in their lives on this forum because to do so, they would be called names, judged, etc. Women and men making choices for their family that benefit themselves personally or their family as a whole is looked down on -- even though it better serves the entire family as a whole. A woman who works and doesn't pump full time is looked down on, a woman who choses not to tandem nurse or decides that 12, 18 or 24 months its time to wean is judged, families that chose not to share a bed with their children is frowned upon -- even if the child sleeps in a side car or in their own room, and the list could go on and on.
So yes, its a HUGE turn off. I know lots of wonderful parents who want to avoid "crunchy" mothers not because they think they are weird, but because they don't want to make friends with someone who is constantly judging their parenting, being critical of it, and thinking they "abuse" their kids.
Anything IMO could be labeled abuse or bad for children or bad for families (including AP) -- I think its bad to throw stones at other mothers when you dont know them, their backgrounds, or their families.

onthefence,








, I feel its not their or our faults.


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## Godaime (Feb 1, 2006)

Quote:

They also complain that the AP community is very negative, all about criticism about mainstream, rather than focusing on the positives.
I have never met (in person) an AP parent so I can't speak for the ap parents of where I live, however since I have been on MDC I have seen a little too many negative threads/post of criticizing mainstream ways. I see lots of judging when people don't know the backgrounds of other people who posts, I see lots of the word "abuse" thrown around, and lots of personal attacks.

Quote:

At first I thought the hostility to APers is b/c the Mainstreamers feel guilty, and they have this inferiority complex about their own parenting. But then they tell us that they feel we're too negative (about mainstream parenting) and that the way we speak makes them feel inadequate, like they aren't doing "enough" as parents.
There might be a few mainstreamers feeling guilty however I don't think thats the case for the majority. I think most mainstream moms feel good about how they are parenting and they don't want to be judged harshly by someone who parents a different style, and I'm sure they do not like a person that would call their way of parenting "abuse"

I have worked at a big ten university daycare, where most of the kids are professor's kids, and every single parent is mainstream. Most of the moms do come in and breastfeed, but they also supplement with formula, some do CIO (but not in a neglectful way), they use timeouts, and etc but they LOVE their kids so much... I can definitely tell. I would never say they are "abusing" their kid because they parent that way.

Quote:

Why are they so hostile to us? Are we too "militant" about AP, and is that turning them off?
I think the judging is whats turning them off


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## Kelly1216 (Feb 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jessicaabruno* 
onthefence,








, I feel its not their or our faults with this because it has been happening since women started going to doctors and giving birth in the hospital instead of the traditional way.

Jessica, it's posts like that, when taken personally, as my first reaction was, that contribute to the hostility. I had my dd in a hospital, with an epidural, and an episiotomy. My ob/gyn used a vacuum thing to help me deliver. for me, that is what was best. If there hadn't been hospitals and doctors, I really do believe that my birthing experience would have been much more traumatic. I had horrible back labor and a very narrow pelvic structure, and without pain medication, I would not have been able to really appreciate the beauty of what was happening, but instead would have been too preoccupied with pain. That said, I commend all the mommas that have given birth at home, unassisted, unmedicated. I wish I had your strength! But, I did what I thought was best for my body and my daughter. Hospitals are not evil, sometimes things don't go as planned, but that is not a reason to blame this drift in parenting philosophies on doctors/hospitals.
I'm sorry if I misread your post, or your intentions, but please try to see how it could be easy for me to do so.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Well, I don't know about some people here, but I would call ...say...spanking a toddler abusive. I'm far from your judgemental mama (bumbo, shmumbo) but some people who don't like AP come from a parenting place very far away from where normal people would want to spend time. But they have perfect, nonspoiled kids themselves (due to all that spankin' great love), so I guess _they_ get to be judgemental about APers. Nice trick, huh?

Some fences are awfully dangerous, all rusty nails and male cow poop and loose boards and whatnot. It's a good idea to check out the scene.


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## gentlebirthmothr (Jul 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jessicaabruno* 
onthefence,








, I feel its not their or our faults.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kelly1216* 
Jessica, it's posts like that, when taken personally, as my first reaction was, that contribute to the hostility. I had my dd in a hospital, with an epidural, and an episiotomy. My ob/gyn used a vacuum thing to help me deliver. for me, that is what was best. If there hadn't been hospitals and doctors, I really do believe that my birthing experience would have been much more traumatic. I had horrible back labor and a very narrow pelvic structure, and without pain medication, I would not have been able to really appreciate the beauty of what was happening, but instead would have been too preoccupied with pain. That said, I commend all the mommas that have given birth at home, unassisted, unmedicated. I wish I had your strength! But, I did what I thought was best for my body and my daughter. Hospitals are not evil, sometimes things don't go as planned, but that is not a reason to blame this drift in parenting philosophies on doctors/hospitals.
I'm sorry if I misread your post, or your intentions, but please try to see how it could be easy for me to do so.

Kelly,

It's alright and I'm sorry for that and fixed it.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kelly1216* 
Hospitals are not evil, sometimes things don't go as planned, but that is not a reason to blame this drift in parenting philosophies on doctors/hospitals.

I believe Jessica works/worked in a hospital delivery ward and has seen a lot of interventions (from her experience) that bother her deeply. I think she would be the last person here to hurt anyone's feelings on purpose.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jessicaabruno* 
onthefence,








, I feel its not their or our faults with this because i*t has been happening since women started going to doctors and giving birth in the hospital instead of the traditional way*.

I don't. The mommy wars have been going on for much longer than women giving birth in a hospital. And frankly, the great grandmothers and grandmothers I know and have spoken to and lived around that did give birth at home, breastfed because they had no choices really, and kept their babies with them all the time would not even dare come close to falling into the AP standards today. One hundred years ago women were homebirthing and breastfeeding, keeping their babies near, cosleeping because heck you would freeze to death or there was no room otherwise and while they may not have had "plastic" buckets to put their children into, they sat them in washtubs, blanket trained their babies, put them in animal pens (my DH's grandmother joyfully tells how she put her twins and two year old in an empty pig pen while she milked cows because they kept running off), they used punishment, and they didn't use the psychology of GD/PD to discipline their kids. Most of them had schedules and even let their babies cry. I would venture to say that 100 years ago, family life was not child centered at all.
I think its a shame to blame the mommy wars of AP vs Mainstream with the introduction of modern medicine and birthing in a hospital. Many of us would not be mothers at all without the development of medicine to even get pregnant, stay pregnant or give birth. Its like WW2 being blamed for the WOH vs SAH moms. I just don't buy into it. If women/mothers aren't fighting about one thing, I imagine it would be something else.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

I haven't read the whole thread, so perhaps these points have been made. But in my experience, most parents who practice "ap" don't generally preach or talk about it - they simply do it.

However, there are some parents - of whatever persuasion - who are confrontational, preachy and self-righteous. Since I tend to run in "ap" circles, when I encounter these people, they are being confrontational, preachy, etc. about AP.

"You let your child eat that animal cracker?? Don't you know about the dangers of refined sugar? MY toddler gets all the sugar HE needs from BREASTMILK!" You know the type.

These people annoy me no end. And I can only imagine how they'd strike me if I were more mainstream.

I think it comes down to personality. Some people are like that.


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## lisac77 (May 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zinemama* 
I haven't read the whole thread, so perhaps these points have been made. But in my experience, most parents who practice "ap" don't generally preach or talk about it - they simply do it.

However, there are some parents - of whatever persuasion - who are confrontational, preachy and self-righteous. Since I tend to run in "ap" circles, when I encounter these people, they are being confrontational, preachy, etc. about AP.

"You let your child eat that animal cracker?? Don't you know about the dangers of refined sugar? MY toddler gets all the sugar HE needs from BREASTMILK!" You know the type.

These people annoy me no end. And I can only imagine how they'd strike me if I were more mainstream.

I think it comes down to personality. Some people are like that.

Yeah. I agree with you. Some people, whether mainstream or AP, just feel like they need to build themselves up by tearing other people down.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence* 
If women/mothers aren't fighting about one thing, I imagine it would be something else.

I think that there are women who have personalities like this, just trolling around looking for a pot to stir. I feel really sorry for people like that, it's a pretty sad existence.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Here is what gets me.

There are certain issues I feel like "to each his own". I include crib sleeping, minor CIO (30 min or less, not screaming for hours), baby in a stroller or bucket, using timeouts and occasional spankings, supplementing with bottles, and other such issues. While I don't necessarily think some of these specific parenting techniques are great or even work particularly well, I respect that others have their own approaches. Just because it works for us doesn't mean it will work for others, and vice versa.

Other things I get more confused about because, in my mind, there should be no debate. Choosing to ff when there is no psychological or physical reason? I just don't understand why. Feeding your child soda and candybars instead of a snack? Using shame or humiliation on a child? Forcing your child to obey your authority?

There are certain things I just don't understand. They are just not right, in any circumstances, in my understanding of the world.

But I also include in the above categories vaccinations (I worked in child survival for many years, I am nearly religious in my belief in vaccinations) and mothers NOT sacrificing the entirety for their families.

As you can guess, I don't define things based on whether they are AP or not. I define these things based on whether I think they are appropriate ways to parent a child.

I actually don't associate with AP communities IRL because it can quickly turn into "perfect parenting" competitions - the "more AP than thou" conversations where *gasp* *horror* I use disposables! But I get back some cred for tandem nursing. *whatever* ; )

But then in my "mainstream" moms groups, we get competitions about sleeping through the night or weaning first.

I think a lot of the defensiveness comes from the general anxiety folks feel about parenting and the pressures placed on women to be perfect parents. Some folks take the AP message with the zeal of a new convert.

And no one likes being told that what they are doing is a. wrong or b. harmful to the very people they would fight a lion to protect.

Parenting is not a competition sport and AP is not a checklist.

Your mileage may vary.

Siobhan


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Imogen* 

So my feeling is now this... for those who choose to judge my parenting choices, whether they are considered AP or mainstream. I raise my son, you do not









Blessings

Sing it sister.

Our parenting should not be judged by the individual decisions. our parenting should be judged by how our individual children are. If they are happy, healthy, and have the skills to make them into happy, healthy, responsible adults, I did a great job.

And sod the rest of the world.







:


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## PrennaMama (Oct 10, 2005)

ZINEMAMA: I liked your post. From mainstreamers to APers and everyone in between, it IS about personality. I don't think behavior is philosophically based... meaning that if I'm judged for not cloth diapering by an AP, or if I'm judged for nursing into DD's 2nd year by a mainstreamer... it's actually for the SAME reason. Because those folks have an axe to grind. Nevermind my intent in parenting or the results achieved by my practices... my practices aren't THEIR practices, therefore I am fundementally in error. Whatever... have a day!









We have to have thicker skin in some ways... who cares what someone thinks of the way YOU do YOUR parenting... if it works, it works. (Disclaimer: I am NOT including neglect, violence, malnutrition, or other extremes in that statement.) "Spanking is the seed of war..." Cultures that DON'T employ corporal punnishment don't have war. Look it up. What I mean to say, is that if we preach GD and mutual agreeability, etc, then we have to practice on other folks, too, even if they don't perfectly fit our perceptions of "what is right".

I recommend an excellent book called Raising a Secure Child that discusses a concept that is left out of most conversations and debates about AP'ing. That is, successful parenting is less about Attachment than it is Emotional Availability. You can have a strong attachment, slinging and nursing and not CIO... but if that attachment is an insecure one (meaning babe cries relentlessly when re-united with u after brief separation, or other symptoms...) then Emotional Availability isn't actuated, and the child will sooner than later withdraw and cease seeking emotional sustenance from the parent...

Mainstreamers and APers alike are sometimes guilty of missing that...


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## gentlebirthmothr (Jul 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence* 
I don't. The mommy wars have been going on for much longer than women giving birth in a hospital. And frankly, the great grandmothers and grandmothers I know and have spoken to and lived around that did give birth at home, breastfed because they had no choices really, and kept their babies with them all the time would not even dare come close to falling into the AP standards today. One hundred years ago women were homebirthing and breastfeeding, keeping their babies near, cosleeping because heck you would freeze to death or there was no room otherwise and while they may not have had "plastic" buckets to put their children into, they sat them in washtubs, blanket trained their babies, put them in animal pens (my DH's grandmother joyfully tells how she put her twins and two year old in an empty pig pen while she milked cows because they kept running off), they used punishment, and they didn't use the psychology of GD/PD to discipline their kids. Most of them had schedules and even let their babies cry. I would venture to say that 100 years ago, family life was not child centered at all.
I think its a shame to blame the mommy wars of AP vs Mainstream with the introduction of modern medicine and birthing in a hospital. Many of us would not be mothers at all without the development of medicine to even get pregnant, stay pregnant or give birth. Its like WW2 being blamed for the WOH vs SAH moms. I just don't buy into it. If women/mothers aren't fighting about one thing, I imagine it would be something else.

onthefence,








, for helping me by replying to my reply with what I said about today vs yesterday's birth. Well, the doctors, hospitals, working mamas, and stay at home mamas are part of the problem as well.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

I've seen cloth diapering and disposables mentioned several times, and I just have to ask, but what the heck does diapering have to do with _attachment parenting_? I had no idea one's choice of diapers could enforce or discourge attachment to one's child.

I think people get confused with attachment parenting and natural family living.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
I've seen cloth diapering and disposables mentioned several times, and I just have to ask, but what the heck does diapering have to do with _attachment parenting_? I had no idea one's choice of diapers could enforce or discourge attachment to one's child.

I think people get confused with attachment parenting and natural family living.

It doesn't. Just like being a vegetarian or a vegan doesn't. Or whether or not you use soap. Or even if you vaccinate. These are NFL choices, not AP choices.


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## DQMama (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
There are certain issues I feel like "to each his own". I include crib sleeping, minor CIO (30 min or less, not screaming for hours), baby in a stroller or bucket, using timeouts and occasional spankings, supplementing with bottles, and other such issues.

But some things are just always wrong. (Yes, that sounds super judgemental, doesn't it?) Like hitting a child or teaching them to cry themselves to sleep. I can understand how a parent might be desperate for sleep or desperate to get their child to listen to them. But regardless of how desperate one feels, spanking and CIO just aren't right.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Some people are just way too militant about things and it's their way or the highway. I think that attitude turns a lot of people away from AP personally.

Lets face it, everybody thinks their way is "right" otherwise it wouldn't be "their way". The problem is when people can't accept other parents' decisions... bottle or breast, co-sleeping or not... the list goes on.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DQMama* 
But some things are just always wrong. (Yes, that sounds super judgemental, doesn't it?) Like hitting a child or teaching them to cry themselves to sleep. I can understand how a parent might be desperate for sleep or desperate to get their child to listen to them. But regardless of how desperate one feels, spanking and CIO just aren't right.

They are wrong for YOU, these are not universal to all people, cultures, societies or religions. So yes that does sound pretty judgemental, and why statements just like that cause division, even among APers, NFL folks, Those on the fence, and the mainstreamers. Because you are placing your own personal morals or opinions on someone else. ( to me its no worse than someone saying "homosexuals are always wrong") Just because you think those things are always wrong, doesn't make it so.
For example -- my second child, he cried himself to sleep. This is the way he was. He did not like to be held, rocked, anything of the sort. He wanted his head to point east, wear warm PJs, be on his stomach with a fleece blanket over him and then he would cry himself to sleep. If you picked him up, patted his back, talked to him softly he would Scream bloody murder until you just let him be and then 5-10 minutes later, he would be asleep. Now, should I force MY CHILD to conform to what you think is always wrong? Nope. There have been threads on this forum who told mothers they were wrong to let their children cry in a carseat while they DROVE from point A to point B. They called that CIO. See how insane that is?

(just to be clear because I do not want this thread pulled, I am not advocating CIO for any person, I am just expressing my experience with one of our children)


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## sparkprincess (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
*I think a lot of the defensiveness comes from the general anxiety folks feel about parenting and the pressures placed on women to be perfect parents. Some folks take the AP message with the zeal of a new convert.
*
And no one likes being told that what they are doing is a. wrong or b. harmful to the very people they would fight a lion to protect.

Parenting is not a competition sport and AP is not a checklist.


I've found this to be true!! I think some of it, too, is just because it *is* outside of the mainstream. It's not how things are usually done. Sometimes it just seems WEIRD! I know because I used to be totally mainstream - before having a child.

Also, I think we all like to be validated and affirmed and if someone is parenting in a way that is drastically different and having seemingly good results it's sometimes easy to lose sight of what we are doing and why.

Another thing, and I don't mean to sound snotty, but I do think that sometimes guilt comes in to play. I mean, formula feeding is not, nor will it ever be, as healthy as breastfeeding. Period. And anytime a parent doesn't do the absolute best for their child they are going to feel guilty - even if there are other factors that come in to play. Same thing with CIO. I think almost all women especially have that strong maternal instinct that just makes them go crazy when they hear their baby cry. We don't WANT to let them cry. Even if a women feels like she has to let her baby cio or risk hurting it or something, I think there is still that element of "this doesn't feel 100% right". I think that guilt can lay right under the surface and sometimes even an offhand remark can fan the flames and set you on edge, ya know?

I think there are a lot of factors. I know people on both sides of the fence who are totally rude and in-your-face. I also know people on both sides of the fence who take offense at every single tiny remark and see it as a personal jab at them. There are so many layers to this, I think.


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## EastonsMom (Oct 24, 2005)

My BFF and I talk about this alot. We both find a solstice in our friendship because we parent so similarly and and we can have a sense of peace when together because we underdstand why we do what we do with our kids. We both had/have friendships with VERY mainstream mamas and we both find it hard to maintain a strong frindship with them. She could describe it much better than I ever could ( she is SOOOOO much better spoken than I could ever be







: )
Why can't mamas all come together and agree to dissagree and agree that we are all just trying to do what we think is best for our babies and respect each others views and actions ( within reason here. ) It breaks my heart to hear a baby cry it out, or to see a bottle of formula proped up in a bucket seat for a lil one, and COUNTLESS other 'mainstream' tactics. I know that they have got to of heard of 'our way' somewhere and they made the conscience decsion to choose their way







But I do see an unfairness not just in media, but in medical, and everyday living. Could you imagain if a mother who had the bottle of formula propped in the bucket for the babe was told to go feed her babe in the bathroom because it was offending!? You would _*NEVER*_hear that; but a mother trying to nurse her newborn discrettly is told this order everyday!!! How is that fair or right. Unfortuntly we live in a mainsteam socitey and until AP is respected, that is how it is going to be. I don't expect Ap to become the norm and expected form of parenting here but RESPECTED is all I think we are asking for.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence* 
They are wrong for YOU, these are not universal to all people, cultures, societies or religions.

Aside from opinions, which people, cultures, societies and religions are all based on, what about medical fact? Does it come back to the fact that for every study or professional who advices against CIO and spanking there is one who condones, or even encourages it, so therefore it's subject to interpretation?

At what point does the medical community back up things that are wrong, or right for that matter? When DOES it become appropriate, and right, to say that certain things _are_ wrong?

I agree with you to a certain expect, as it seems there are equal amounts of information for both sides of the fence, and depending on one's values and beliefs that information will either be credible or not credible.

But now that breastfeeding IS absolutely better nutrition then formula, as opposed to formula being an "equal" substitute like it was 20 years ago, when will CIO and spanking become wrong?

To me those things are wrong, and I can't wait for the day that anything that says otherwise will be deemed wrong and invalid. Does that make me judgmental, or is my research just subject to interpretation?


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sparkprincess* 
Another thing, and I don't mean to sound snotty, but I do think that sometimes guilt comes in to play. I mean, formula feeding is not, nor will it ever be, as healthy as breastfeeding. Period. And anytime a parent doesn't do the absolute best for their child they are going to feel guilty - even if there are other factors that come in to play. Same thing with CIO. I think almost all women especially have that strong maternal instinct that just makes them go crazy when they hear their baby cry. We don't WANT to let them cry. Even if a women feels like she has to let her baby cio or risk hurting it or something, I think there is still that element of "this doesn't feel 100% right". I think that guilt can lay right under the surface and sometimes even an offhand remark can fan the flames and set you on edge, ya know?


A few comments to your post. One not all guilt is rightfully felt. Meaning, I may feel bad about something, but it may not necessarily be wrong. One of my children is adopted, I stopped breastfeeding him (I was also FF) because it just wasn't working out. Its not that I didn't have milk, or that he had a bad latch -- it just wasn't going well on so many levels. I felt guilty because I had all these Idealistic views and judgements about what a good mother was, and this black and white view of what was right and what was wrong. I wasn't wrong for quitting and not breastfeeding. It wasn't beneficial to our relationship, I shouldn't have felt guilty for quitting something that was not helping our bonding. See, unlike many people here, who came to AP or NFL by chance -- it is something that started with me BEFORE I had children. Then I had children and experiences that humbled me and showed me life, parenting was not always so black and white.


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## aprons_and_acorns (Sep 28, 2004)

*nevermind, off topic anyway*


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Aside from opinions, which people, cultures, societies and religions are all based on, what about medical fact? Does it come back to the fact that for every study or professional who advices against CIO and spanking there is one who condones, or even encourages it, so therefore it's subject to interpretation?

At what point does the medical community back up things that are wrong, or right for that matter? When DOES it become appropriate, and right, to say that certain things _are_ wrong?

I agree with you to a certain expect, as it seems there are equal amounts of information for both sides of the fence, and depending on one's values and beliefs that information will either be credible or not credible.

But now that breastfeeding IS absolutely better nutrition then formula, as opposed to formula being an "equal" substitute like it was 20 years ago, when will CIO and spanking become wrong?

To me those things are wrong, and I can't wait for the day that anything that says otherwise will be deemed wrong and invalid. Does that make me judgmental, or is my research just subject to interpretation?


I think your research is subject to interpretation, as would mine be. We can't debate several of the things mentioned in this thread because its against the UA, but I think we can at least say that (no matter what side you are on). What I may find right, normal, acceptable may not be what you find right, normal, acceptable. This arguement could apply to childbirth, feeding, styles of eating, etc.

I think we should not judge in absolutes, since you bring up breastfeeding, I think its wrong to say "Breastfeeding is always right" because while I firmly believe that breastmilk is the perfect nutrition for babies, I also know that breastfeeding is not always right for particular situations, babies or mothers. So then for those situations, FF does because best, and it becomes right. So why should I, or anyone else say "FF is always wrong"? This is where a good bit of division comes in. I remember a mother on our street who FF her children, she asked me why I breastfed -- my answer was "Because I think its best." Even though it was all innocent, and in my eyes, correct. She saw it as me judging her because she FF her children, but that was not my intention at all. Now, when someone asks me, I answer them with "I believe" and that "its best for my baby" and if they go on to ask me additional info on why, then I try to offer that information as non judgemental as I can. However 9 years ago, I would have been all up in arms, radical, militant about breastfeeding. I just found that really, that just turns folks off -- no matter how much research you have to back you up.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence* 
T
For example -- my second child, he cried himself to sleep. This is the way he was. He did not like to be held, rocked, anything of the sort. He wanted his head to point east, wear warm PJs, be on his stomach with a fleece blanket over him and then he would cry himself to sleep. If you picked him up, patted his back, talked to him softly he would Scream bloody murder until you just let him be and then 5-10 minutes later, he would be asleep. Now, should I force MY CHILD to conform to what you think is always wrong? Nope. (just to be clear because I do not want this thread pulled, I am not advocating CIO for any person, I am just expressing my experience with one of our children)


This is EXACTLY how my oldest dd was. And I had people here claim that was "impossible." Well if they had lived in my house they would have seen just how "possible" it was.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *OnTheFence* 
We can't debate several of the things mentioned in this thread because its against the UA

No one is debating those "things" (probably CIO and spanking to name a few), but rather trying to figure out what drives other people, most likely not on MDC, to view them as appropriate.

Quote:

What I may find right, normal, acceptable may not be what you find right, normal, acceptable. This argument could apply to childbirth, *feeding*, styles of eating, etc.
Ok, and this is my question - when it comes to feeding there is nothing better then breastmilk. Period. Whether or not a breastfeeding _relationship_ is best for mother or baby is irrelevant, ALL babies should receive breastmilk. It's not always possible, I get that, but when does that non-negotiable bit of medical fact become subject to interpretation in another persons eyes?

To me CIO is no different, but yet there a number of people will go as far as saying that it's actually _beneficial_ AND may have some sort of literature, however absurd I think it is, to back that up. Whether or not someone chooses to feed formula, I have yet to meet a single person who thinks formula is _better_ then breastmilk, yet there are many people who think CIO is better then the alternatives. When will CIO become substandard to the alternatives like how anything other then breastmilk is inferior/sustandard?

Quote:

I think we should not judge in absolutes, since you bring up breastfeeding, I think its wrong to say "Breastfeeding is always right" because while I firmly believe that breastmilk is the perfect nutrition for babies
That's exactly what I said above - _"But now that breastfeeding IS absolutely better nutrition"_

20 years ago women who said that breastfeeding was the best thing for their child were probably thought to be judgemental of the use of all that wonderful formula, but now we know they're right. My only hope is that in 20 years my views on CIO, being that sleep training is absolutely wrong, is 100% supported by the medical community.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess* 
I think that there are women who have personalities like this, just trolling around looking for a pot to stir. I feel really sorry for people like that, it's a pretty sad existence.

It is sad. They're so filled with anger and guilt over their own poor choices (such as spanking) that they need to try to find new and ever-more-complicated ways to justify it and put down AP parents, like..say..they're a buncha shroom-smoking crazies with bad, spoiled kids. For instance. I'm sure no one here would say something like that. I guess it really bothers them that some people don't agree with their poor parenting choices.

Sort of like that saying, "when you know better, you do better." Except they know better, but they still do a big stanky mess on the living room carpet. Example A: George Bush. And I'm sure you could think of a few others.


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## Nikki98 (Sep 9, 2006)

Well I just think people are naturally defensive of the parenting decisions they make. When we see someone doing something differently, we may begin to question our own reasons for doing something. At times when I am looking thru different threads on this board, I do sense some high tension (like with vaccinations, circumsion). It seems as if AP and NFL have become totally synonmous, and I don't believe this has to be the case. One may believe in vaccinations for their child, yet be a totally responsive parent. _So it isn't_ _always so clean and cut_. I like the AP approach to parenting, but I would be lying if I said I never yelled at my children or that I am always resposive to their needs. I do my best to love them and nuture them, but in the end I'm only human. And at times the lofty ideals of AP makes me feel overwhelmed, but I continue to do the best I can do (like most mothers







).


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Getting back to the original question:

I think a big reason why AP is so maligned by certain people is because:

1. it is increasing in popularity/becoming chic (just look at the number of moms on this website! And the celebrities who are pro-breastfeeding/baby wearing, etc.) Anytime something becomes popular, it also gets detractors.

2. the philosophy is very different from current mainstream culture. Most mainstream parenting is about promoting independence - in the child and in the parent.

AP is about promoting attachment - supporting dependency from the child until the child no longer needs to be dependent - and a sybiosis between mother and child.

This is a fundamental shift in how many people see child development, and many people are not "on board" yet. There are many many people who do not believe you can discipline without spanking or punishment. There are even more who believe that CIO is a painful but inevitable part of infancy. Many people do not know better because they have not seen any other perspectives.

4. Sometimes AP sells more than it can deliver. Colicky kid? Wear him! Reflux or allergies? Breastfeed! Problems with night waking? Co-sleep!

But in reality, there are plenty of colicky babies in slings, breastfed babies with allergies, and lots and lots of moms who find co-sleeping is worse for their entire family.

5. The concept of "attachment" is hard to measure - what does it mean my kid is well attached? He tantrums and whines as much as my neighbor's kid who was ff, slept in a crib with CIO, etc.

However, much AP literature does sorta imply "my kid is better than a non AP kid because I[list AP behaviors here]". Which would drive most parents nuts.

Personally, I parent this way because it is how I feel most comfortable, not because of any promise of exceptional outcomes. I suspect there is a lot bigger range for parenting behaviors (and kids are more resilient) than we sometimes think.

6. As a PP pointed out, humans are fascinated by parenting since, frankly, it is a monumentally important task. After all, your kids will someday be my kids' peers - and all of them will need to look after me when I am old!


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Nikki98* 
It seems as if AP and NFL have become totally synonmous, and I don't believe this has to be the case. One may believe in vaccinations for their child, yet be a totally responsive parent.

Case in point.

I believe 100% in vaccinations - not only that, but I have worked in public health campaigns actively supporting them in developing countries.

I won't argue for them on MDC since, frankly, there is no point, but I take deep offense at any belief that one HAS to agree to all MDC stances in order to be considered a good mother.

I like what the PP said about emotional availability. I agree that this aspect of parenting has been overlooked (or perhaps just assumed) by AP.


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## lovingmommyhood (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
but I take deep offense at any belief that one HAS to agree to all MDC stances in order to be considered a good mother.









Ditto.


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## flyingspaghettimama (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 

I won't argue for them on MDC since, frankly, there is no point, but I take deep offense at any belief that one HAS to agree to all MDC stances in order to be considered a good mother.

Yah, I don't think anyone says I have to agree with all MDC stances on anything, so I don't think there's a need to take offense. Nobody's ever pilloried me for using disposables at night. YET! I also selectively vax, and I've yet to feel any wrath. Mostly pity, as I am but an ignorant, ignorant sheeple who hasn't done her research.

MDC is an _anonymous internet forum_, not the place I go to get warm fuzzies for my parenting style. I can get that from real people. All the crunchy mamas I know in real life, we might do things differently on various fronts (discipline, weaning, diapering, schooling, vaxing), but I've never felt judged by them, and we agree on our basic principles of respecting our children's needs. I know there are some highly judgemental mamas on MDC who seem to have a crunchometer, but I just put them on ignore. Bwa ha ha! I think that's the funny thing - people get into big debates because it's online, when if we actually met each other, we'd be like - feh!

Unless you're a spanker. I'm not talking about feh-ing with you. I don't feh with spankers. Feh only goes so far.


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## Daisie125 (Oct 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *flyingspaghettimama* 
Unless you're a spanker. I'm not talking about feh-ing with you. I don't feh with spankers. Feh only goes so far.

I don't know if it's because it's late & I'm tired or what, but I am laughing so hard right now I can barely type.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I only know two people iRL who have a negative attitude toward Attachment Parenting: my mom, and a friend who is a child psychologist. I have to explain this:

First, most of the parents I know do some stuff that people would call AP, without knowing about the philosophy. They aren't engaged in mommy wars about AP and other philosophies, they are only engaged in parenting.

Second, my mom: my mom has a negative attitude toward anything I like, as her first reaction. A friend of hers told her that as a child psychologist working with children who have a poor adjustment to school, she sees a lot of families that claim to practice AP--so AP must cause a poor adjustment to school. I'm like, "Mom, all the families your friend sees have children who have a poor adjustment to school--how can she make a causal attribution?"

(Don't mess with me or I'll causally attribute ya.)

The child psychologist is a wonderful person. She doesn't like AP because she thinks it's the Martha Stewart of parenting philosophies, requiring too much effort from parents. i thought "well, you don't have a baby, that's why you think AP is harder!" She praises OUR parenting, in spite of her disdain for AP as a philosophy. (Though she did express horror that we were helping our infant get to sleep!)

What i didn't know about her was that she lost her mother in early childhood. So she has a good reason to want to believe that people are resilient in the absence of intensely responsive mothering.

The whole reason that I wanted a framework like AP to describe my parenting is that i don't like the ways my mom parented. She was a hitter and a yeller who was uncomfortable with physical affection after a certain age. I don't think I sat in her lap past age 5. I will always be on the lookout for whatever helps me to stay loving, responsive and non-violent.

We invest the parenting decisions in infancy with a lot of weight, but parenting doesn't end at infancy. In the end i think it matters a lot less how you get your baby to sleep when she is a baby than how you treat her throughout her life as a person. I just think that anything that promises a continued love and engagement is for me!


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

This thread has been closed pending moderator review. Thanks for your patience.


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