# Fenugreek and plugs, delayed letdowns



## Lady Lilya (Jan 27, 2007)

2 weeks ago, I started taking low doses of fenugreek (1 600mg pill with each meal and snack, total 5 pills per day). A few days later I got a small plug way up in my armpit. I was too busy to tend to it, and it went away on its own in about 36 hours.

In the middle of last week, I increased the dose to 9 pills a day, 3 with each major meal. Yesterday evening, I developed a much more major plug in the same duct, but much more central.

I applied heat most of the evening. In the night, I developed an average-degree plug in my other breast. I've never had a plug in the right breast before. Specifically, I only had one plug before (and it didn't hurt), just after my milk first came in, and it was in the duct in the left breast where I hot plugged again last week and yesterday evening. The one that developed in the night in the right breast is in a duct on the inside of the breast, which I believe gets the most drainage.

So, is there some connection between fenugreek and a sensitivity to plugs?

To make matters worse, in the last few days it has taken longer to stimulate a letdown, and I have an impatient baby. It used to take 15-30 seconds mostly. Occasionally up to a minute. Now it is around 2-3 minutes. He gets very angry, and sometimes will refuse to keep sucking. Then he wants his pacifier, and won't go back on me until after he takes his next nap. (He generally only eats as he is waking and still foggy.)

It has been a big problem the last 3 nights. He usually eats uneventfully in the night and then goes back to sleep. The last few nights he has latched on, and then let go and cried for the pacifier. Then he spits it out after a minute and tries me again. He does this over and over until the letdown happens. Last night he got so upset we had to get up and walk him around to calm him down. I am getting such disturbed sleep because of this.

Do you think there is a connection between the fenugreek and the late letdowns?


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## Lady Lilya (Jan 27, 2007)

Hmmmmm, I thought of another possibly related factor...

The last 3 days, I pumped one ounce each evening.

My first plug, 3 months ago, was after 2 days of pumping for each feeding.

But I also pumped a few times in early October without any plugs.


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## CathMac (Jan 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lady Lilya* 
... Do you think there is a connection between the fenugreek and the late letdowns?

Lady Lilya,
I've never heard of that before but that doesn't mean it isn't possible.

Have you tried the Marmet massage technique before pumping and nursing to promote letdown? Also, have you tried compressions while nursing?

Also, there are two herbs that promote letdown. If you are interested in trying one of them I could find their names for you.
~Cath


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## Lady Lilya (Jan 27, 2007)

Yeah, I tried the massage. No help. In fact, this morning I was getting nervous because I didn't have any letdowns between getting up at 6, and 10. I had eaten and drank normally, and wasn't unusually tense. But now they are behaving like normal again. I didn't have any fenugreek yesterday or today. Plugs are improving, but that is probably due to the passage of time.

I think i will experiment a little by using fenugreek off and on to see if letdown changes are correlated.


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## Lady Lilya (Jan 27, 2007)

So, it has been 6 weeks and I haven't fully recovered from the plug in my left breast. But, it hasn't turned into anything serious either.

I haven't taken fenugreek since. My supply has been fine.

Letdowns are still longer to come, most of the time. It is worst in the early morning hours. (And we had a recurrence of the day when I couldn't seem to have one for a few hours.) He is getting used to waiting a bit for it. When he is in a good mood, he will give a few sucks, stop to play for about 15 seconds, give a few more sucks, stop again, back and forth until the letdown. If he is cranky, he gets upset and I need to give him the paci about 15 seconds to calm him down to try again. Most of the time at night (sidelying) he latches on and then alternates sucking and dozing until the letdown. Sometimes he gets upset and we use the paci method.

I haven't often applied heat to the plug because sometimes it causes a letdown. If it happens at an unwanted time, it is a real problem because then I can't have one when he is ready to eat. I can't seem to have them any closer together than half an hour.


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## mb05 (Oct 29, 2006)

Not sure if there's a connection... but I do know that clogged ducts are no fun! First come the plugged milk ducts and then mastitis (fever, pus, blood, red streaks, etc.). Here's some info for you that may be helpful... (I've had my share, too... is it obvious by my list? lol) :>)

Try to continue doing the following:

1. Apply wet or dry heat to the affected area--gently massaging the area while it's warm, removing any dried milk secretions on the nipple by soaking in plain water.
2. Massaging while area is still warm, using your hands and fingers, following the breast to the nipple area, using circular motions
3. Nurse right after this massage
4. Nurse frequently
5. Loosen constricting clothing, including your bra
6. Make sure baby is well positioned and latched on well... even older babies can change their latch
7. Vary nursing positions
8. Try not to miss a feeding without pumping (if baby is determining not to nurse, then this is usually a "gradual" missed feeding & not abrupt)
8. Rest... _(which may also help with your slow let-down... would starting to massage and/or using a warm wash cloth before you nurse help any?)_

You're right when you try to get your lo to nurse... it's often the best thing you can do with a clogged duct or mastitis. You may try continuing to offer the affected breast... perhaps offering in a quiet place with no distractions... after applying some wet heat and you've helped start a let-down... massaging the breast when he nurses or you pump helps clear the clogged ducts. A pain reliever like acetaminophen may help with the pain, too.

Making sure your baby is latched on well during the entire nursing session. Different positions may help, too.

Have you figured out what led you to getting mastitis? Sometimes knowing this can help with on going problem. Is your bra too tight? Have you gone too long in between nursings? Are you needing to pump more effectively/often?

take care,
carla


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## Lady Lilya (Jan 27, 2007)

Carla, I don't THINK it is mastitis. I FEEL fine. Just there is one duct that is obviously not draining properly, and it has a sore area. It is deep in the breast, so I can't feel a little knot like I could with prior plugs.

I tried to do those things on your list, for about 2 weeks. But it is almost impossible to do those things well or consistently.

I can't nurse AFTER the heat or massage. The baby will only eat as he is waking from a nap and still foggy. And he only naps on me. There is no window of time to apply heat or massage. If I do not feed him immediately, I lose my chance for the next 2 hours or so.

I can only nurse as frequently as his naps. He tends to play for about an hour and 15 minutes, then take 15 minutes to be rocked to sleep, then sleep for half an hour. So, he nurses every 2 hours, roughly.

For a few weeks, I was favoring the plugged side. But, now that breast is much larger and fuller than the other, which I guess just means more trouble for that duct. Now I recently went back to equal treatment. And I am nursing on one side per feeding now, so the trouble breast is actually getting drained every 4 hours. I just figured favoring it was making things worse in the long run. I have been doing equal treatment for about a week now, and haven't seen any harm come from it.

Clothing: 99.9% of the time I just wear a loose nightgown with no bra. I didn't have any sag at all until about 3 weeks ago when the plugged breast finally grew big enough (due to being favored) to sag a little. When I go out, I have been wearing a nursing tank which seems not to be putting any pressure anywhere.

Varying nursing positions: please try explaining the importance of this to the baby.







He will only eat in cradle position during the day, and side-lying at night. Picky eater? He had some issues early on, and would for a long time only eat in the cradle position because he knew it worked. It took a long time before he was willing to even TRY side-lying.

Rest is not going to happen. DH is getting more and more exhausted and stressed out, even with the little I ask of him lately. I reduced his load thinking if he got recharged it would be better for me in the long run. I am only just barely taking care of survival needs now. But I have plenty of time for the internet while the baby sleeps in my arms, like now. I guess that is rest.

Oh, also, if I massage the breast while he is eating, he de-latches and screams and refuses to latch on again. Same goes for trying to apply heat while he nurses.

The pain is barely significant, so I am nowhere near needing to take anything for it.

I really feel like oversupply had been a factor in this problem. It all started with fenugreek, which I probably didn't need. (I was freaking out about his poor weight gain, which was probably due to him eating 3 minutes at a feeding, and then not being sleepy enough anymore. He only eats when he is not thinking.) Now I think it has been perpetuated by favoring that breast for 6 weeks, which just upped it's supply further.

I don't feel like the issue is very urgent, since I have lived with it 6 weeks already without it escalating, so I am probably going to continue trying to balance out the breasts by doing one side per feeding.


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