# Strange German car seat



## kindchen (Dec 8, 2008)

When we were in Germany this spring, my FIL had been taking my two daughters on errands with him in the mornings so I could sleep in. I assumed he was using their car seats, which we brought with us and I had installed myself. After several days of this, I went somewhere with them and was horrified to see my then two-year-old in a seat that looked crazy to me.

This is the seat:

http://bmw-life.net/docs/bmw_junior-...-ii-isofix.pdf

It has no harness straps and the cushion thing across the lap seemed loose and completely inadequate for protecting a child in a crash. I insisted that we reinstall her Marathon and that she not ride in the German seat again. My FIL told me that these seats without straps test better than five point harnesses. During our trip, I saw more examples of this type of seat made by other manufacturers as I walked by parked cars.

So, my question for you wonderful car seat gurus is--has anyone heard of this type of European seat? Could this possibly be safe?

I have been meaning to look up the German safety tests, so I'll let you know if I find anything interesting. If these were safe and available in the U.S., they do seem like they would be MUCH easier to use and more comfortable for the child. I just can't figure out how they could be safe.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Yes, I have seen those and similar (the Recaro Start has a similar impact cushion). I would rather use one of those over a FF harnessed seat, although with a 2 year old RF would be the safeST option


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## 34me (Oct 2, 2006)

Huh. They look a lot like the seats my kids sat in 10+ years ago. interesting.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *34me* 
Huh. They look a lot like the seats my kids sat in 10+ years ago. interesting.

Are you referring to this kind? They do look similar, but there are major differences. The kind in the OP are made out of EPS foam (as opposed to plastic) and fit differently around the child. They provide restraint without adding stress to the vertebral column (which is a concern for higher-weight harnessing seats).


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## bobandjess99 (Aug 1, 2005)

Yes, these are VERY SAFE seats that are a way safer option for a FFing child under age 4. Kiddy company is possibly bringing one to the US market, and if they do, I will buy one yesterday!!!


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## zebra15 (Oct 2, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kindchen* 
When we were in Germany this spring, my FIL had been taking my two daughters on errands with him in the mornings so I could sleep in. I assumed he was using their car seats, which we brought with us and I had installed myself. After several days of this, I went somewhere with them and was horrified to see my then two-year-old in a seat that looked crazy to me.

This is the seat:

http://bmw-life.net/docs/bmw_junior-...-ii-isofix.pdf

It has no harness straps and the cushion thing across the lap seemed loose and completely inadequate for protecting a child in a crash. I insisted that we reinstall her Marathon and that she not ride in the German seat again. My FIL told me that these seats without straps test better than five point harnesses. During our trip, I saw more examples of this type of seat made by other manufacturers as I walked by parked cars.

So, my question for you wonderful car seat gurus is--has anyone heard of this type of European seat? Could this possibly be safe?

I have been meaning to look up the German safety tests, so I'll let you know if I find anything interesting. If these were safe and available in the U.S., they do seem like they would be MUCH easier to use and more comfortable for the child. I just can't figure out how they could be safe.

Yes i would buy that thing like yesterday if i had a babe...


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

I am actually seriously considering looking into how much it would cost to ship, because the picture in the link in the OP looks like it was in the X5, and it looks like it would fit perfectly in my X5.


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

These typ of seats offer pretty decent safety although nothing better than a high back booster seat (if child is 4 and above) or a FF harnessed seat.

It does have some severe drawbacks. Seat is fine for shorter rides but quickly gets very warm. It's also not more comfortable than a regular seat, it's an uncomfortable seat for anything more than a 30 minute ride. It's simply not comfortable for a child sitting with a hard pillow pushed against the chest.

People who work in the car seat industry know that German testing should be taken with a grain of salt. It's normally subjective and biased not to mention they hate rear facing and in general don't believe it's any safer regardless of age.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adventuredad* 
These typ of seats offer pretty decent safety although nothing better than a high back booster seat (if child is 4 and above) *or a FF harnessed seat.*


That is not exactly true. You can't simultaneously argue that harnessed booster FF is unsafe, and that these restraints aren't better. They are totally different systems. We all know that Swedish seats are ZOMG totally awesome







but that doesn't mean that every other seat on the planet needs to be taken out back and burned


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Those are great seats. I wish we had them here.


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## kindchen (Dec 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
I am actually seriously considering looking into how much it would cost to ship, because the picture in the link in the OP looks like it was in the X5, and it looks like it would fit perfectly in my X5.









Yeah, my FIL was using it in his X5.


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## justKate (Jun 10, 2008)

Interesting. How does it work? Do you have to torque the restraint part down tight on the child? It looks like there are slots on the side for a shoulder belt. Would you use this in conjunction with a shoulder belt?

*informational purposes only.... DD is happy RF in her 5-pt harness


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## kindchen (Dec 8, 2008)

Well, looking carefully at the link, I see one problem with the seat for my dd, which is that she weighs 42 pounds (19 kilo) and as far as I can tell, that seat goes up to 18 kilo with the cushion and then can be used up to 25 kilo (55 pounds) as a booster without the cushion.

Maybe other seats with this design have higher weight limits?

So, how do you know that this design is safe? Are there reliable tests?

I love the idea of this seat, and I would consider importing something similar with higher weight limits, except that I think that would be illegal.


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## kindchen (Dec 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *justKate* 
Interesting. How does it work? Do you have to torque the restraint part down tight on the child? It looks like there are slots on the side for a shoulder belt. Would you use this in conjunction with a shoulder belt?

*informational purposes only.... DD is happy RF in her 5-pt harness

Those slots are for using the seat as a booster with the vehicle's seat belts after the child exceeds the 18 kilo weight limit with the cushion restraint.


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## P.J. (May 18, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adventuredad* 

People who work in the car seat industry know that German testing should be taken with a grain of salt. It's normally subjective and biased not to mention they hate rear facing and in general don't believe it's any safer regardless of age.


Wow, I didn't know that but I'm not surprised. I live in Germany and all I can tell you is I was *shocked* at the first baby car seat I had. I got it second-hand from someone I know, and we went out to my car to put it in. Well, it was only strapped in by the seatbelt and was totally loose and I could tell if I slammed on the brakes it would go flying in any which direction. I was so surprised because usually in this culture people are obsessed with safety and security. Well, luckily you can buy these "Iso-fix" thingys that you install securely to the backseat and the car seat clicks into that. It's what we have now and it's totally secure. But without it the car seat would be more or less just resting on the back seat.


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
That is not exactly true. You can't simultaneously argue that harnessed booster FF is unsafe, and that these restraints aren't better. They are totally different systems. We all know that Swedish seats are ZOMG totally awesome







but that doesn't mean that every other seat on the planet needs to be taken out back and burned









I don't argue FF harnessed seats are unsafe, just that they are not any safer than a HBB for children 4 and older.

I said the seat offered "pretty decent safety" which is hardly asking for the eat to be taken out back and burned.

It's a forward facing seat so the comparison to Swedish RF seats is not applicable, the safety difference between RF and FF is huge. This type of seat is not any safe to start with and children also tend to be uncomfortable unless it's a short ride. Imaging sitting with a hard pillow pressed against your chest/face for a long ride

Children being uncomfortable in a car seat is rarely good for car seat safety and often led to compromises.


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## mrskingred (Aug 3, 2006)

I have the Kiddy brand seat and love it. DS outgrew his FF harnessed UK car seat by height at age 37 months and 13.5kg and this was the best option for us, as he was too light and young to booster and a Swedish rf seat was not an option for us. He's now 4 (this month) and 15.5kg. I expect to use the cushion until he's about 5, when I'll be more comfortable that he'll use a booster properly.

Quote:

children also tend to be uncomfortable unless it's a short ride. Imaging sitting with a hard pillow pressed against your chest/face for a long ride
Children being uncomfortable in a car seat is rarely good for car seat safety and often led to compromises.
He sleeps well in it, better than his previous seat and hasn't complained about being too hot. Previously in his old seat he would continuously complain "I'm stuck, let me out", which gets lame when you're stuck on the M25.
We drove to Bilbao from the UK and he was very comfortable and spent a lot of the time asleep or "reading" his books.


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

Nice to hear! Glad you found a good solution which works well for you. UK to Bilbao is along ride...


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## mrskingred (Aug 3, 2006)

Thanks








On Friday we drove from Bilbao to Almeria to visit my parents. Another long drive. I wish spanish internal flights were cheaper and didn't all require a layover in Madrid.


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