# Spanking when bad and punishing for not eating



## tylerdylan (Aug 29, 2007)

DH and I just aren't agreeing these days on how to handle our 3 year old. DH thinks the only way to get DS behaving "properly" is to spank him when he's bad. Does anyone have any good website links or info on the negative affects of spanking?? I know it's wrong, but convincing DH is not working. So far I've managed to prevent DH from doing this by handling all the disciplining myself, but DH and I fight about it all the time because he just doesn't agree with the way I am doing things.

And, while I have your attention....DS is a poor eater (most days). He was also labled failure to thrive from 8-33 months of age. He is still severely underweight and way off the charts, but the doctor's are finally convinced there is nothing medically wrong with him and he is just going to be skinny so they lifted the label. I've accepted that. I've read the book "My Child Won't Eat" by Carlos Gonzalez and it made me feel a lot better about just letting DS eat how much he wants and not trying to force him to eat in any way. When DS says he's done I just calmly say "ok" and let him get up. DH of course won't read the book. He is convinced that since "my way" isn't working to get DS eating more/better/gaining weight that we need to try something new. DH wants to start punishing him when he doesn't eat. Specifically he thinks DS should be denied everything after the meal including attention/playing from us. He also thinks that if DS doesn't eat his dinner that he shouldn't get a snack before bed or that it should be his dinner back again. He thinks that DS is thinking "I don't feel like eating this so I'll just wait till snack time to fill up my empty belly". I think denying him food later on isn't sending him the right message. So, what I do is if he ate his dinner good he gets to choose his snack ie ice cream and if he ate poorly he gets something good for him (fruit or yogurt). DS understands this and will say "fruit or minigo for snack tonight since I didn't eat my dinner good?". So, does anyone have any good links or info on the negative effects of punishing a child who doesn't eat his meal/meals (there are days he barely eats anything and DH goes crazy from this).

TIA for your help. DH is so mainstream and it is so tough somedays....


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## laoxinat (Sep 17, 2007)

So sorry dh is being a butt, mama! In our society, men are socialized to believe that lack of control over their lives is a moral failure, kwim? So they tend to take things very personally. And, most of us weren't raised AP or GD or what have you, and these concepts are often so alien that dads often just can't wrap their brains around them. Plus, men are socialized to detach emotionally from situations they can't control, which makes it easier to suggest the more punitive measures. Lest anyone think I am picking on the men, I also think these are true for women too, but often take a slightly different form. The ONLY way I ever got xdh to even approach gd parenting was modeling. I just had to walk the talk, and show him what gentle parenting looked like. I also printed out short, concise articles or charts about emotional development and cognitive development (my ed. background is family studies). This helped a lot, just for him to know that DS' behavior was normal, and that it would pass, and sooner when we were calm. I recently saw a great piece of wisdom here on MDC - *GD is not necessarily meant to produce well behaved children, so much as well behaved adults.* I just love that because it kind of takes the pressure off, kwim? Good luck, mama. You are NOT alone. This is a real challenge for lots of us!


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## attachedmamaof3 (Dec 2, 2006)

sounds like a normal 3 yr old to me.


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## lindsaye3 (May 15, 2007)

Since you asked, the stickies at the top of the forum have very good links on why you should not spank your child for your dh to read (since you obviously know this).

I can guarantee your dh that punishing your child for not eating is NEVER going to make him a good, healthy eater. It is going to set up a very unhealthy relationship with food. My ds2 is not a big eater at meals and is pretty thin. Dh wanted him "try everything" before he could leave the table, until ds2 literally was gagging trying to eat a tiny bite of baked potato about age 4.







That was the end of any attempt at making a child eat, tricking a child to eat, reward or punishing a child for eating, etc. Dh felt horrible!! They will eat when they are hungry. Children this age often are hungry shortly after eating, depending on metabolism, what they ate and drank, small stomachs, etc. Ds2 still is very picky about what he eats, but he can substitute food, he can snack whenever (except right before meals), and we don't force him to try things. His favorite foods: Shrimp and brocolli







: Who would have guessed it?

I agree with laoxinat - a lot of this may be a control thing for dh. Her other advice is good - developmental expectations for children, etc. for your dh to read.


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## tylerdylan (Aug 29, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *attachedmamaof3* 
sounds like a normal 3 yr old to me.

DH technically knows that some kids don't always eat good, unfortunately the two people he does know who have kids DS's age eat as much as an adult would! Poor DS just can't compete with that. And the failure to thrive label has been so recently lifted that DH often forgets that DS is "normal". He has constitutional growth delay (they think). He weighs 22 pounds and is only 33 inches tall - he just turned 3. He is really tiny and DH wants him to get bigger so he won't be picked on. I understand why DH wants him to eat good, but DH doesn't grasp that punishing him to eat isn't going to make him grow tall or put on any weight. It is very frustrating!!


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## tylerdylan (Aug 29, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lindsaye3* 
Since you asked, the stickies at the top of the forum have very good links on why you should not spank your child for your dh to read (since you obviously know this).

I can guarantee your dh that punishing your child for not eating is NEVER going to make him a good, healthy eater. It is going to set up a very unhealthy relationship with food. My ds2 is not a big eater at meals and is pretty thin. Dh wanted him "try everything" before he could leave the table, until ds2 literally was gagging trying to eat a tiny bite of baked potato about age 4.







That was the end of any attempt at making a child eat, tricking a child to eat, reward or punishing a child for eating, etc. Dh felt horrible!! They will eat when they are hungry. Children this age often are hungry shortly after eating, depending on metabolism, what they ate and drank, small stomachs, etc. Ds2 still is very picky about what he eats, but he can substitute food, he can snack whenever (except right before meals), and we don't force him to try things. His favorite foods: Shrimp and brocolli







: Who would have guessed it?

I agree with laoxinat - a lot of this may be a control thing for dh. Her other advice is good - developmental expectations for children, etc. for your dh to read.


Of course - I forgot about the stickies!!! Duh! Thanks!

I know DS will eat when he gets hungry. DHs problem is that I am a SAHM and see how much he eats all day long. DH only sees what he eats at dinner and dinner is DS's poor meal most days. So DH thinks that DS never eats and is doing it to bug him. He won't trust DS's body to eat when it needs too. Plus I don't think it is fair to compare DS's eating amounts to what another 3 year old is eating since clearly DS is far smaller than any of them and his body just doesn't need as much food to live on.


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## 1972momma (Feb 4, 2008)

Hmmm. OK, here's my take: I was totally with you right up to the disagreement you and your husband have about what to do AFTER meals; and on that count, I'm with him.

Our 3 year old would happily graze all day, but with a younger sibling and a third on the way, actual meal times are important to us. A mid-morning snack and a mid-afternoon snack are usually offered, but I can't imagine an after-dinner snack, since it's so close to bedtime.

My point is this: What we found was that, when we stopped allowing her to eat willy nilly all morning, she would actually be hungry for her lunch and eat it. And, though she's usually clamoring for a snack around 4 p.m., we usually make her wait until dinner, and, voila, she actually is hungry and eats her dinner.

I'm not suggesting you starve your son via some ridiculous adherence to a random "food schedule." I agree that kids are different and sometimes need to eat more frequently than we do. But, I really do believe that three main meals and two well thought out snacks a day are enough and that one can stick to these intervals without feeling like you're not letting him eat "when his body needs to eat."

So, one suggestion I have is to be consistent and precise with your meal times, partly for your own sanity but really so your son learns what to expect and when. I just think routine is hugely important at this age, and definitely helps with tantrums and other "bad behavior" as well.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

:

Read back to him what you've posted here. Does he not see how SAD this is?

He wants to hit your child? He thinks a 3 year old is BAD? Children are not bad.

He wants to PUNISH him for not eating? By denying him food?

maybe I'm overly emotional today, but this is just clearly tragic- can he not see that?

-Angela


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## tylerdylan (Aug 29, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *1972momma* 
Hmmm. OK, here's my take: I was totally with you right up to the disagreement you and your husband have about what to do AFTER meals; and on that count, I'm with him.

Our 3 year old would happily graze all day, but with a younger sibling and a third on the way, actual meal times are important to us. A mid-morning snack and a mid-afternoon snack are usually offered, but I can't imagine an after-dinner snack, since it's so close to bedtime.

My point is this: What we found was that, when we stopped allowing her to eat willy nilly all morning, she would actually be hungry for her lunch and eat it. And, though she's usually clamoring for a snack around 4 p.m., we usually make her wait until dinner, and, voila, she actually is hungry and eats her dinner.

I'm not suggesting you starve your son via some ridiculous adherence to a random "food schedule." I agree that kids are different and sometimes need to eat more frequently than we do. But, I really do believe that three main meals and two well thought out snacks a day are enough and that one can stick to these intervals without feeling like you're not letting him eat "when his body needs to eat."

So, one suggestion I have is to be consistent and precise with your meal times, partly for your own sanity but really so your son learns what to expect and when. I just think routine is hugely important at this age, and definitely helps with tantrums and other "bad behavior" as well.

We do stick to a schedule for eating. DS was a patient of a Failure to Thrive clinic at our Sick Kids hospital for a year and the one thing that worked to get him eating his meals better was not letting him graze all day long as we had been doing. So his meals and snacks are well spaced out so that he is hungry for meals. But since dinner is at 5:30-6:00 and bedtime around 7:30, he is often hungry for a snack before he goes to bed. DH just thinks that DS prefers snacks and hence won't eat his dinner knowing he will still get his snack to fill up on. I don't blame DS - I like snacks better too







, and when DS is hungry he will eat some of his dinner too. That's why I choose healthier snacks at bedtime if he didn't eat his dinner good.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Punishing for not eating is bad, IMO. Talk to your DH about what the goal is, it is for your son to gain weight, grow and be healthy. So tell him that to get him to that goal, he basically needs to eat when he's hungry, and withholding food, attention or love, isn't going to help your son achieve the goal.

HTH.


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

Will your husband consider counseling? Either by himself or as couples counseling together. I think a decent counselor could help with this. Seems like he might have a touch of control issues, and he needs to be willing to study facts and employ critical thinking in making parenting decisions; not just pull stuff out of nowhere and react emotionally.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 







:

Read back to him what you've posted here. Does he not see how SAD this is?

He wants to hit your child? He thinks a 3 year old is BAD? Children are not bad.

He wants to PUNISH him for not eating? By denying him food?

maybe I'm overly emotional today, but this is just clearly tragic- can he not see that?

-Angela

That was my immediate feeling too.

Does he not see the utter stupidity, abuse and illogic of punishing a child for not eating by denying a child food.

I'd do a combo of putting my foot down no matter how much H ( sorry but he doesn't deserve the d in front of that) whines or yells and I'd insist that we get family counseling. If he gets his way he will be pushing this child into an eating disorder


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## SophieAnn (Jun 26, 2007)

I was looking for an old topic for you and I finally found it!









Here's a discussion I found helpful:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=835632

Though I don't have any kiddos I found the discussion really helped give me an alternate view to the classic dinnertime "eat all your dinner or no snacks/no dessert".

A number of people talked about how they keep healthy snacks out all the time - like a little buffet of nuts, cheese, fruit, veggies, crackers, etc. so that whenever they're kids are hungry they will have healthy choices available.

There are lots of other suggestions in that thread, and other posters in the same situation of having a dh/dp disagree on their approach to mealtimes - I hope it helps you.


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## rootzdawta (May 22, 2005)

DH is "old school" when it comes to discipline so like you, I field most of the discipline issues to avoid spanking. And I'm getting damn good at it. Stay on this forum, read a lot and you will soon have proof that using GD you can have a harmonious family life and happy, cooperative (as cooperative as a two year old will be) children.


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## tylerdylan (Aug 29, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna* 
That was my immediate feeling too.

Does he not see the utter stupidity, abuse and illogic of punishing a child for not eating by denying a child food.

I'd do a combo of putting my foot down no matter how much H ( sorry but he doesn't deserve the d in front of that) whines or yells and I'd insist that we get family counseling. If he gets his way he will be pushing this child into an eating disorder

lol - we are already in counselling!! DH is a hypochondriac and became impossible to live with so I convinced him to go into counselling. And now we've used up all our benefits and can't afford to go anymore


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## shayinme (Jan 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lindsaye3* 
Since you asked, the stickies at the top of the forum have very good links on why you should not spank your child for your dh to read (since you obviously know this).


Please do look at the stickies at the top of this forum, you will find tons of great resources to share with your dh.









Shay


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## tylerdylan (Aug 29, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SophieAnn* 
I was looking for an old topic for you and I finally found it!









Here's a discussion I found helpful:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=835632

Though I don't have any kiddos I found the discussion really helped give me an alternate view to the classic dinnertime "eat all your dinner or no snacks/no dessert".

A number of people talked about how they keep healthy snacks out all the time - like a little buffet of nuts, cheese, fruit, veggies, crackers, etc. so that whenever they're kids are hungry they will have healthy choices available.

There are lots of other suggestions in that thread, and other posters in the same situation of having a dh/dp disagree on their approach to mealtimes - I hope it helps you.

Thanks for the link. I can't wait to have more than 2 free minutes so I can sit down and read it.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tylerdylan* 
lol - we are already in counselling!! DH is a hypochondriac and became impossible to live with so I convinced him to go into counselling. And now we've used up all our benefits and can't afford to go anymore

















on having used up your benefits but







that you guys had already been going. It's awesome that he has been going, that is the biggest hurdle. I know it was for us, and afterwards dh kept commenting he wished we had gone sooner


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## ktmama (Jan 21, 2004)

I haven't read all the posts, but I'd suggest that you reframe the vocabulary of "meals" and "snacks" and eliminate the difference between the two. This is where I do agree with your dh. What would happen if there was no difference in what you offered for meals vs. snacks? Why is ice cream a "snack"? I think if my kid was fragile in this area, I would be sure to be giving him lots of healthy, high calorie food. I'm sure you have lots of ideas from your docs.

What might also help your dh is to keep a list of everything your dc eats during the day so he can see the total of his intake, not just what's happening at night. FWIW, my kids eat dinner *right* before bed, so I don't mind if they have a 6:00 "snack" (or pre-dinner). What the difference if they have a snack and then dinner or dinner and then a snack?


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

It may be more helpful for him if you get him to learn about normal childhood behavior and read or talk about bad vs. normal but needing an replacment behavior. It sounds like he is frustrated because he thinks that your child is ignoring what he is asked to do a lot, which is really normal for any three year old. Would he read a book about parenting or take a parenting class with you? There is a pretty good series about normal behaviors called My one year old, My two year old, My three year old, etc... The stuff at the front is crap but the question and answer part is really good. There are also some books written by people who do believe in good and bad behavior but are more gentle in their approach. Dr. Sears book about fatherhood may appeal to him because he has been a parent and done both spanking and more gentle approaches after prompted to a lot by his wife. He also goes into the harmful effects of spanking in his books.

He may have a point about the food thing. I don't think that you should re-serve his dinner to him because that can lead to a lot of resentment towards the child for not eating it in the first place. But it may be that he is missing out on a certain type of food at dinner time and the replacement should be something that will give him the nutrition that the food would. For example, if he never eats his meat then a meat then something very high in protein would be a better healthy snack then a fruit, or if he never eats brocilli then a different vegetable could be the replacement. Cutting all junk food out of everyone's diet for a while may help make your H relax about the food thing too and that may help him to calm down about the disciplinarian speaches.


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## innle (Mar 16, 2007)

It's clear that your DH has some concerns here and while his approach is clearly not an good one (spanking is just














), it's important to validate his concerns, and the best way IMO is through information.

As for the eating issue, as long as your son is getting all his nutritional needs met, I wouldn't worry too much about it at this stage. Food can turn into a huge battleground, and that can unfortunately lead to lots of issues with diets/eating later in life.


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## tylerdylan (Aug 29, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
It may be more helpful for him if you get him to learn about normal childhood behavior and read or talk about bad vs. normal but needing an replacment behavior. It sounds like he is frustrated because he thinks that your child is ignoring what he is asked to do a lot, which is really normal for any three year old. Would he read a book about parenting or take a parenting class with you? There is a pretty good series about normal behaviors called My one year old, My two year old, My three year old, etc... The stuff at the front is crap but the question and answer part is really good. There are also some books written by people who do believe in good and bad behavior but are more gentle in their approach. Dr. Sears book about fatherhood may appeal to him because he has been a parent and done both spanking and more gentle approaches after prompted to a lot by his wife. He also goes into the harmful effects of spanking in his books.

He may have a point about the food thing. I don't think that you should re-serve his dinner to him because that can lead to a lot of resentment towards the child for not eating it in the first place. But it may be that he is missing out on a certain type of food at dinner time and the replacement should be something that will give him the nutrition that the food would. For example, if he never eats his meat then a meat then something very high in protein would be a better healthy snack then a fruit, or if he never eats brocilli then a different vegetable could be the replacement. Cutting all junk food out of everyone's diet for a while may help make your H relax about the food thing too and that may help him to calm down about the disciplinarian speaches.


DH's major problem is definitely that he doesn't know what is normal for children at each age group. He hears his co-workers brag all day about how wonderful their kids are and it makes him think we must be doing something wrong, so he wants to do the opposite of my laid back, gentle appoach.

As for the food thing, DH really doesn't care what DS eats as long as he eats. Infact too many times he'll say things like "what normal 3 year old refuses to eat ______________" (fill in the blank with some form of junk food - donuts, chips, cookies, cake). I personally am glad he would rather eat a piece of fruit than all that junk. DS actually does pretty good eating from all the food groups (not necessarily on the same day, but spread out over the week - one day he'll eat his meat, another day his veggies...). DH just doesn't want DS thinking he can skip meals and not have there be a consequence to it. He thinks letting him have a snack later is like giving him a treat for not eating his dinner. I think that is ridiculous, but do agree that he shouldn't get dessert, but rather something good for him. DS understands this. He knows that when he doesn't eat good, he doesn't get his favorite snacks later. But I think denying him a snack/food all together and sending him to bed potentially hungry is not right.


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## momuveight2B (Mar 17, 2006)

tylerdylan said:


> something new. DH wants to start punishing him when he doesn't eat. Specifically he thinks DS should be denied everything after the meal
> 
> 
> > I can tell you what will happen if your husband persists in this kind of extreme treatment. A child worth his salt will refuse to eat and again become FTT and when that happens doctors will insist on hospitalization and a g-tube. That is when a tube is inserted through the abdomen and the child who refuses to eat orally can then be fed in this way.
> ...


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## Sylith (Apr 15, 2002)

This is only anecdotal, but my brother and his ex-wife were very punitive with my nephew when he didn't eat "enough." He is now 16 and has a pretty serious eating disorder.

In regards to spanking and discipline issues, will your DH read things like books, or would he be more likely to be persuaded by a scientific study, or a shorter essay?


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## laoxinat (Sep 17, 2007)

Also, what a child eats over 3-5 days is what counts, not so much what is eaten at each meal. A kiddo that age, esp one who was FTT simply cannot get a whole meal into his tummy at times, KWIM? I would be interested in which aproach resulted in the largest *net* consumption of healthy foods. But I also agree with a PP that in his case, high calorie foods are very important given his small appetite. Of course, I know you are already on board with this, but if you can find some good documentation esp the stickies and such, and print them out for DH to read, (better yet, leave them just sitting around the reading room, heh heh














that might be a non confrontational enough way to reach him. Good luck mama!!


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## SunshineJ (Mar 26, 2008)

Forgive me if this has already been suggested, but maybe you should try a different tactic than articles, etc. You said your DH refuses to read one book on eating, so it seems unlikely that he'll want to read a bunch of articles that are in direct opposition to what he believes in. However, if the pediatrician were to discuss it with him (very, very few dr's still endorse spanking) and explain different and better alternatives.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Babies and toddlers instinctively know how to regulate their food intake. When we make LOs eat or deny them food when they are hungry we interfere with their ability to self regulation. They begin to eat when we want them to instead of when they bodies tell them to. Our societies ideas about feeding children is why we have obesity and eating disorders. Most adults were trained to ignore their bodies cues when they were young.

The way to have a child with healthy eating habits is to offer them healthy food and let them eat how much they want and when they want. Does your husband want to give your child food issues or make him an obese adult. There should never be any consequences for refusing to eat unless *that* is your goal.

Here are a few links for your DH to read so he can know whats normal for LOs; http://www.lambtonhealth.on.ca/child/feeding.asp , http://www.askdrsears.com/html/3/T030800.asp . The last article mentioned that a small child's stomach is about as big as his fist. I'm sure your DH doesn't reallise how small your DS stomach is. When I was looking for links to give you all of the articles recommended one tablespoon per year of age for serving size, and about 6 small meals per day.


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## JennieYoung44 (Jan 21, 2006)

hi,

it sounds like you are very firm in your commitment to parent your ds gently. that really is very important.

follow those links from the stickies. they are really useful.

we were not having an issue with spanking, but we (and especially he) were generally being too harsh, rough, and dictator-ish... i went to the links and read them constantly. dh came over often to see what i was crying about ... i didn't say anything, just let him read. it made an impact on him. he really didn't want to be told how to be a good father, and also did not want to hear how wrong he was or how little he knew. but, he's not dumb. he agreed with the stuff in those links. he wanted to change after he read them.

he didn't want to treat any of our sons so disrespectfully. i am sure yours doesn't either.

it is not that hard to change. i don't think it has to require therapy or help. i think that with you as a positive and strong example he will see that it does work. this age is one of the most difficult, imo, because all of a sudden your compliant and sweet child is developing "an attitude." i try to remind my dh of how hard it is by saying things like, "oh, it makes me so frustrated that he won't eat at the table, why is he constantly climbing around (this about our nearly 3 year old), but i know he will grow out of it. it just tries my patience so much ... " or whatever ...

that way, he doesn't feel like the bad guy, he feels like we are on the same page. we are both learning and struggling.

my favorite quote for reminding myself and my dh to be gentle and not demeaning or rough is:

*Children do as we do, not as we say.*

I have it written and posted all over to remind both of us at all times.

I hope this post made sense, it is getting late and I am getting tired.


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