# 3 kids - 1 small car - what to do?



## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Not sure what forum to put this in, so I thought I'd stick it here.

The issue:

I'm about to have a third baby and I can't figure out how to safely fit all three kids in the back seat of my Toyota Corolla. My kids are 5yr/45lbs, 3yrs/37lbs and soon a baby. Connecticut Law has just changed and now my 5 yr old needs to be in a booster seat until he weights 70lbs - so I need to fit two booster and a baby seat in my small back seat - there's no way with the current car seats I have.

So - does anyone else have three kids and not have a SUV/Mini Van? How do you do it? Are there any brands/types of car seats that are small enough to allow me to fit three in the back seat or should I just start car shopping?

Thanks!


----------



## shelbean91 (May 11, 2002)

I'm not in that situation, but would it work if you got the 'booster only' booster seat? I know there are the booster seats that are like the boosters in restaurants, but with a shield over the lap? I hope you know what I'm talking about- I'm certainly not explaining it well. I don't even know weight limits on them. If you put the 5 yr old in that, the 3 year old in the smaller 5 pt harness booster, and then the baby seat in the middle - that might work.

I would probably use it as an excuse to go car shopping, but getting different boosters (if they fit) is a much more economical choice.


----------



## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Thanks. We actually have two booster seats like that for the 5 and 3 year old. still won't fit, may be car shopping time.


----------



## LisainCalifornia (May 29, 2002)

Yep--when we knew we were going from 2 to 3 kids we knew we had to switch over to a mini-van. We bought the Ford Windstar. It actually is much better than a car because the oldest is in the back row, the 2 girls in the middle row, and we are up front in the captain seats---I find the kids don't fight nearly as much in the car because of all of that "personal space" they have now. We also splurged and put a flip down screen (it is attached to the roof) so the kids can watch videos on long drives. I use to dread our 8 hour drives to the see the inlaws in Los Angeles, but now it goes by relatively quickly with the VCR and each of the kids having plenty of room to color and look at books in their car seats. Even my 9 year old is still in a Britax booster, and it helps me feel more secure about his safety.

We traded in our Subaru Forester and they gave us a pretty good deal on it. My husband has a smaller car for work.

Good luck,
Lisa


----------



## 3girls1boy (Nov 20, 2001)

When we just had the three girls, we only had our Eagle Summit, which is actually a bit wider than most small cars. But we had a small booster (which just positioned the belt) for my oldest, the baby seat in the middle (no base, but I just left it belted in all the time) and a booster with a shield (which is not recommended anymore) on the back passenger side.


----------



## Britt (Nov 19, 2001)

We've done it in a Tercel. We got a Britax booster, which is really narrow. I forget the make of the other seats, but we had a booster and two five-point car seats in the Tercel (a tiny two-door), and later a Camry.

Now my boys, 10, 6, and 4, are in the back seat of an Opel (slightly smaller than the Camry), with three car seats: two boosters like the Britax, and a five-point seat. Shop around, it can be done. (Unless you're looking for an excuse for a new car.







)


----------



## Chelly2003 (Jan 5, 2003)

I have a similar problem, my Dh picks my son up from day care, and when our new one arrives he'll pick up the new one too. He drives a truck, with only the one bench type seat - I don't know HOW we're going to fit in two car seats + DH. I'm not sure what the weight limit is on a booster, but we'll probably try a booster for my son and then the baby/car seat.
We can't afford to go car shopping at this point, and the truck has NO payments (I have payments on my car still).
Chelly


----------



## sunmountain (Nov 19, 2001)

Those booster sheilds got recalled, none of them are safe, I'll see if I can find a link. You can use the boosters without them if you have a shoulder belt. And you don't want to put a child w/o a car seat next to one with one, as they can be crushed in a collision.

We got an old station wagon with a way-back seat that seats 7 altogether. We have four kids and this works for us, a new/er car was just out of the question, but on the bright side our insurance rates are low and we only have to carry Liability. I spend less per year on upkeep than I would if I had a car payment, even on a newer used car. It's a Chevy Celebrity Eurosport (89), and got great reviews and safety ratings when it came out. It was my ILs car, and they took very good care of it. It's a good car all around. We will top 200,000 miles for sure. You can get Oldsmobiles and Volvos with way-backs, too.

I ONLY buy used cars, it's a matter of recycling for me.


----------



## Missgrl (Nov 18, 2001)

Don't have anything to add....just wanted to say HI








good luck on your birth! I'll be thinking of you


----------



## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Thanks! I'm going to check out a Britax seat. Also - does anyone have the recall info on the booster seats with the arm b/c we have one of those - I didn't know they were no longer safe. I'm also going to try the idea of using the baby seat with no base.

We could buy a new car, but then we'd have to live on a very tight budget - I think dh would like the excuse to get the new car - I'd rather have a little extra money each month.

thanks.

Oh







good to see ya Missgrl


----------



## Britt (Nov 19, 2001)

My understanding is that most shield boosters have not been actually recalled, but they are *not* safe. For children under 40 lbs they are far less secure than a seat with a harness, and they are not intended for use with kids over 40 lbs.--kids are ejected from them and in far too many cases, are injured or die. We had an acquaintance whose child (under 40 lbs) died in one (major internal injuries), and we stopped using ours right after that. Here in Sweden they don't sell shield boosters because they are considered unsafe. Here's an article about the conflict over banning shield seats:

http://classes.washburnlaw.edu/lass/...umer_Group.htm

Regarding boosters, the narrowest Britax booster we found three years ago was th Star Riser Comfy. It is much narrower than most other boosters, and last I checked had an excellent safety record. My ten year old still sits in a similar Swedish seat. http://www.epinions.com/kifm-Baby_Eq...ats-All-Britax There's a list of many of the Britax seats. They are not cheap, but if you compare them to the price of a new car...


----------



## sunmountain (Nov 19, 2001)

here's the site I was talking about, scroll down for a discussion about the seat...it's a very comprehensive site about carseats, and gets updated regularly, you might want to put in your favorites









http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/shieldbooster.aspx

jaylind is my source for this info, and is chock full of great info about carseat safety. You can pm her with any questions, etc... and you are right, they didn't officially recall it, they just sent out notices saying to "throw it out"







:


----------



## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

OMG









Thank you for those links! I'm freaking out that I've been carrying my children around in these seats for so long and they are so unsafe. My god - why are they alloud to sell them?!?

So I'm probably off to buy some Britax car seats today - as they do seem like the narrowest out there. If they still don't fit with the infant seat in the middle it's looks as if my dh will get his wish and I'll conceed to getting a new car.

Also I'll pm jaylind and see if she has any ideas.

Thank you ladies for helping me keep my boys safe!


----------



## jaylind (Nov 19, 2001)

i got your pm







i don't hang here a whole lot so if you pm me and don't hear back, you can rattle my cage via email costumesplash @ hotmail.com (no spaces).

ok....three in the back of a corolla. not impossible, i know a lady who gets 3 in the back of her neon and i think they are about the same size. i have an escort and can also get three in the back. the trick is getting the right seat combination for your car.

i guess the first question i'd have for you is, which seats in the back have lap/shoulder combinations? two? three? none? depends on the age of your car. the second important question is, do the seats have headrests or other head support for kids that might be sitting in backless boosters? if a child's ears is not above the vehicle's seatback, that is adequate head support. if their ears are above the seatback or headrest (if there is one), you need additional head and neck support that a high-backed booster will provide.

i will tell you that if you can get away with a backless for your oldest, that will generally take up less room. a nice inexpensive one is the evenflo right fit. IMO the rightfit is the same as a britax starriser (NOT the starriser comfy with the back on it, which indeed is quite narrow if you are wanting a high-backed booster). here in oregon we have thousands of rightfits available for free or a small donation from low-income families so you can check to see if your state has such a program. here is a link to CPS contacts in your state: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/inju...ontactList.cfm speaking of state contacts, here is a locator for seat inspections, you might take whatever seats you get and have someone there check it out or offer ideas since i can't see what you have going on...i'm sure i'll miss something: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/inju...acts/index.cfm

ok...what else? once you have figured out which seat will go where, in my experience, if you start installing with the middle seat first, you

ok i'm gonna post this because at the moment i have a high risk of losing it all to my 14 mo old LOL


----------



## jaylind (Nov 19, 2001)

ok LOL sorry about the interruption

ok...what else? once you have figured out which seat will go where, in my experience, if you start installing with the middle seat first, you will have the best luck in getting them all in there. say you are putting a harnessed carseat in the middle. when you have that middle carseat installed, you have a little wiggle room. remember that the seat needs to be tight AT THE BELT PATH. this means that the part of the seat where the belt goes through, you have to have it installed such that that part of the seat doesn't move more than one inch side to side. an inch of movement is ok and that's where you have a little wiggle room. also the rest of the seat will probably more more than an inch (if you grab the back or sides of the seat and wiggle) and that's ok. it's the beltpath where it has to be tight. get it as tight as you can and then i'm guessing you will still have some wiggle. 1 inch is acceptable.

then you can go about installing the other seats. your under 40 lber should still be in a harnessed seat...it will take a 37 lb 3 you a loooong time (sometimes a year or more) to get to 40 lbs so you can keep that one in a harnessed high backed booster. i have a century breverra ascend and it's not the best seat as far as twisty straps (you have to be VIGILANT about smoothing them out every time) but it works. any kind of high backed booster with a harness is fine, you might try to find the the narrowest one. britax doesn't make a harnessed high backed booster unfortunately







and since your little is still 3 lbs under the limit for most harnesses i would get him something other than a britax. ok anyway, you can install that seat next to whomever is in the middle, just be sure that when you are installing you get it tight INDEPENDENT of the other seat. sometimes the edge of one seat will hang up on another and that can leave slack in the belt in a crash. when you are done installing, it's ok if the seats touch (i can't see how they won't in a corolla) but you must be sure they don't hang up on each other.

and a smaller backless booster should fit on the other side for your other kiddo, provided you have all the head support i mentioned earlier and of course a lap/shoulder belt.

for me, when i put 3 in the back, i put the high backed harnessed booster in the middle, a britax convertible (advantage) on the outside, and another backless booster on the outside. try lots of different combinations, you should be able to find one that works for you. if i had to use another high backed in place of the backless, i could fit another narrower one in there (not another century, it's a tad wide).

hope that helps a bit! lots of factors to consider!


----------



## jaylind (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by dotcommama_
*OMG









Thank you for those links! I'm freaking out that I've been carrying my children around in these seats for so long and they are so unsafe. My god - why are they alloud to sell them?!?

So I'm probably off to buy some Britax car seats today - as they do seem like the narrowest out there. If they still don't fit with the infant seat in the middle it's looks as if my dh will get his wish and I'll conceed to getting a new car.

Also I'll pm jaylind and see if she has any ideas.

Thank you ladies for helping me keep my boys safe!*
it's ok to put the infant seat on the outside. in fact, your infant will be better protected in the infant seat than your toddlers will in the boosters because of the high side "wings" of the infant seat. i have a 3 yo and a 14 mo and i actually have my 14 mo on the outside (have since his birth) because his convertible seat has deep side wings whereas the high backed booster doesn't, so my 3 yo is less protected in a lateral (side impact) crash. don't be afraid to try different combinations in seating. it's ok to put the baby on the outside (counterintuitive, i know....).

edited to add that YES i am a certified CPS technician...i got my certification last november when i realized how easy it is to misuse seats. at least 8 out of every 10 seats are installed incorrectly or misused in some other way. and of course, internet advice is never the same as having someone actually look at your seats and your car. have your seats CHECKED by a technician. i posted a link above.


----------



## sunmountain (Nov 19, 2001)

Thanks for posting all this, jaylind, you are such a great mama









One more question, if it's safer to have the infant on the side and the booster in the middle, what do I do if I have only a lap belt in the middle? Would he be better in the way-back where I have a shoulder strap?


----------



## Sandra Dee (Aug 5, 2002)

Just wanted to say what we found worked -

DH has a Cavalier (read: TINY backseat) and we had no van when we were expecting DD#3.

We measured all the high back boosters (the safest option) and they were all the exact same width! Even the ones that seemed REALLY wide were took up the same amount of space in the back - so we kept the same carseats we had.

As for the infant seat - two measured smaller --- a Peg Perego Primo Viaggio (which is pricey) and a Century Avanta. The Century Avanta was at Baby Depot (at Burlington Coat Factory) and had a really skinny base. It sat up much higher than most and because of that the girls on either side couldn't mess with the baby too much.

Another important point is to use a base and the harness on the highback for as long as possible. (My DD's carseat allowed her to be in the seatbelt at 30lbs, but we opted to continue to use the 5pt harness instead). The car seats are all SOOOO close together, it is VERY difficult to get to the seatbelts. This is the same reason you *do* want to use a base for an infant seat - you will not have to worry about properly installing it every time you put the baby in (which I don't find you can do with the baby in the seat at all, since you have to depress the seat to get a tight fit).

So, with us, we had our 5 year old in a highback booster with the seatbelt on the left...our baby in the Century Avanta in the base in the center...and the 3 year old in a high back booster with the five point harness on the right.

Hope that helps!









Edited to add: When placing the boosters, keep in mind where the center seatbelt "female end" is - the place where you clip it in. The high-back booster with the harness in use is the one you want next to the clip from the infant seat because you'll never have to access those seatbelts (except for occasionally checking their tension). The five year old's booster will need to use the seatbelt, and he/she will have to access the clip to get in and out - TRUST me - the child WILL unbuckle the baby's base if they are side by side - it is such tight quarters that I've even done it once or twice.







So, make sure the five year old can ONLY get to his/her seatbelt clip.


----------



## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

jaylind







- you are a goddess of carseat knowledge! I want to thank you for posting so much good information.
sunmountain - I have the same problem - I only have a lap belt in the middle so the baby is going to have to do there. Both sides have shoulder belts and a regular back seat with no special head rest.

jaylind - i have two more question for ya - I hope you don't mind.

#1 - Is it true it's not safe to buy a used car seat. All the car seats I've had for my kids have been bought second hand - I never thought it was a problem, but while doing all this research I've seen a couple of things mentioned about it being unsafe b/c if that car seat ever was in an accident then it should no longer be used.

#2 - After reading all this info about the unsafety of those booster seats that I've been using I went out and bought two Graco Travel Booster Seats. http://www.netkidswear.com/gracturcarse.html

Have you heard of them - are they safe? They seemed like the Britax that a lot of people mentioned here, but they are good from 30lbs - 100ish I think. Anyway, I know you mentioned that only a five point harness would be best for my 3 yr old, but this seemed okay for his weight. I put them together and had them do a test sit in them and it seems like they are way more secure in these seats then they ever were in the booster!

Okay - I think I'm done for now! Thanks!


----------



## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

momschooling - thanks for some ideas. I'm going to check out those two infant car seats and see if they might fit.

The problem seems to be there is a slight slope to my back seat - so when the baby seat is in the middle the other seats sit at an angle next to it - doesn't seem very safe. Right now with the two new safer and even narrower older child car seats I still only have out 5" max to squeeze a baby seat it.

Oh and very good point about the 5 yr old accessing the baby car seat belt - I can totally see how that would happen.

Man - I never thought this would be so complicated!!!!


----------



## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

I'm just filling up my own thread here









But, I jaylind I forgot to mention I have been trying to get some help from the local police department on how to install three car seats safely in the back of this lovely car of mine, but so far no one has called me back. I have the name and number of the officer who is in charge of such matters, but I left him a message yesterday and today and I haven't yet heard back. I told my dh that we are not buying a new car unless the "professional car seat installer" tells me there is no way three car seats will be safe in my back seat.

I'll try Mr. Police Man again tomorrow.


----------



## Sandra Dee (Aug 5, 2002)

Oh - also try your local hospital. Call Labor & Delivery. All of our hospitals now require a car seat technician/nurse install the infant seats in your car before you are discharged.

They will check it out for you!


----------



## jaylind (Nov 19, 2001)

wow! lots of good questions. i will try to answer them in order LOL

sunmountain said

Quote:

One more question, if it's safer to have the infant on the side and the booster in the middle, what do I do if I have only a lap belt in the middle? Would he be better in the way-back where I have a shoulder strap?
i was referring to when you are using the combination high backed booster in harness mode, when you would be using that lap belt to secure the child restraint to the vehicle seat. if you are using it in booster mode, you need to *absolutely* use it with a lap/shoulder combination. DO NOT use a booster seat without a lap belt. think about what would happen to your child's torso, neck and head in a crash. so if you have a 5 yo above 40 lbs, you cannot use his booster in a center position when there is only a lap belt there. sorry for the confusion.

as for the way back seat....does it face rearward, so your child looks at traffic behind you? i hate to burst anyone's bubble about how cool those seats are but they are NOT approved for child restraint use. the reason for that is that child restraints are crash-tested on a forward facing vehicle seat. no one knows how child restraints perform in crashes when installed in a rear facing vehicle seat so by using one you are making a crash test dummy out of your child.

if the way back seat is forward facing and has a lap/shoulder belt, then YES you may put a booster there.

if you are now stumped about what to do with your particular vehicle/child restraints/children combinations because you were using a rear facing seat, email me and we'll talk







where there's a will, there's a way!









momschooling said

Quote:

We measured all the high back boosters (the safest option) and they were all the exact same width!
if you have a backless booster used properly on a vehicle seat that comes up above tops of the child's ears like i mentioned in my first post or two, it performs exactly the same as a high backed booster. hbb's are no safer in that situation...in fact some techs are guessing (no tangible evidence yet) that they may be better because the child is sitting with his back on the vehicle's seat but up at the right height rather than sitting on an additional layer of stuff (the back on the hbb) that is between him and the seat. in a crash, the child will be closer to the vehicle's seat and less likely to strike other parts of the car, such as the seats in front of him because he is sitting as far back as he can go. of course, the shield boosters are STILL woefully poor protection in that situation.

they are not all the same width. there are...hmmm....i was going to say 50 but it's not quite that many...but there are a LOT of hbb's on the market. when you visit your local store, they don't have them all, just the ones they stock. so you may have measured all the ones your store had but there really is no way you've measured them all. i have a chart someplace here that shows the measurements and they are all a little different.

as for the toddler unbuckling the baby's seat...well...that's a teaching issue LOL i have seen many parents come in with all kinds of escape artists (or accessories to escape in your case LOL) and they CAN be taught to stop it. it's a good time to teach about safety. BUT as a single mom, i can totally see the reasons to use the avoidance arrangement you had going LOL whatever WORKS!!!
















not all high backs have bases...there are only a few models. just wanted to clarify that if anyone else saw it...and some seats, like the alpha omega, MUST be used without the base when in booster mode. READ YOUR INSTRUCTION BOOKLET!!!!!

dotcommama: it is *absolutely* not safe to use a used seat UNLESS you know the history of the seat. do not borrow a seat from anyone you don't trust with your child's life. that said, a friend and i went together on an infant seat and it served her 2 kids, my 2, and is currently serving my great nephew. after he is done, i will retire it for good as it is coming up on its 7th year. but i know the history of the seat, i know it's NEVER been in a crash, not even a minor fender bender, and i know about any recalls on that seat. if you are buying a seat from a second hand store or a garage sale, DON'T. you cannot be sure of the seat's history.

those turbo boosters are COOL! i like the belt guide for the shoulder belt, it's nice and open so if the child leans forward for a moment, the slack is pulled right back as soon as he sits up again and he's still well-positioned for a crash. the older seats (like my dd's century breverra ascend) has narrower shoulder belt guides and can be a problem if she's leaning forward in booster mode. another opportunity for teaching about safety...have the children know and understand how to pull the slack back out of the belt if they need to.

ok...despite the coolness of the turbo boosters (i'm a carseat addict LOL), if i were you, for the price of that seat, i would buy a hbb with a harness and keep your 3 yo harnessed until he hits 41 lbs. it could be a long time and a 5 pt is safer...for everyone. too bad we adults can't drive in them LOL

also...are those cupholders removeable on the turbo booster? if they aren't, you may run into trouble fitting your infant seat between them. something else to think about.

you said

Quote:

The problem seems to be there is a slight slope to my back seat - so when the baby seat is in the middle the other seats sit at an angle next to it - doesn't seem very safe. Right now with the two new safer and even narrower older child car seats I still only have out 5" max to squeeze a baby seat it.
a little tilt to the outside seats is to be expected. if they are COMPLETELY cattywaumpus then you need to be looking at the whole situation and figuring out how to fix it. my son's britax sits just slighty tilted on the outside next to my dd's breverra ascend(installed as a carseat in 5 pt mode) and it's fine.

when you put your infant seat in there, you will probably want something under the front of the carseat at the seat bight (where the vehicle's seat meets the vehicle's seatback) to boost it up a bit and get the right angle (45 degrees for a newborn...this is IMPORTANT). a rolled up towel (or two) is fine, better is pool noodles cut to fit the proper width of the infant seat base. install the infant seat and THEN the hbb's to get the right fit (it sounds like you are doing that but i just wanted to be sure). you should be able to close the doors....barely LOL

ok...finding a technician. some hospitals have them, others don't. at my hospital, they won't let you leave unless a nurse checks to be sure the infant is in a seat of some kind but they don't check for proper installation. your local police might have someone, they might not (mine don't). your local fire station might (mine don't) or you might just have to find someone like my in your community LOL! sometimes WIC offices have a tech around too...or they know of one. to find a tech near you...click here and you may find someone. i haven't looked lately to see if *i'm* listed for my community so it might not be up to date....

HTH!!!









keep the questions coming...it helps everyone to see what other people are working on for solutions....


----------



## jaylind (Nov 19, 2001)

i forgot to mention...when you use the cps tech locator and get a page of listings, they are listed in alpha order by CITY....that might help you wade through them all LOL


----------



## jaylind (Nov 19, 2001)

just one other thought about boosters....ANY booster...

since they are not attached to the car in any way when they are not in use...buckle them in. that way if you get into a crash when you don't have your toddlers with you, you will not get hit in the head with a huge flying projectile. i actually know someone this happened to, she has a permanent neck injury because of it.

you can actually teach your toddlers to buckle the seats in every time they get out of the car, the same way you are probably teaching them to buckle themselves into them when they get in.


----------



## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by jaylind_
*ok...despite the coolness of the turbo boosters (i'm a carseat addict LOL), if i were you, for the price of that seat, i would buy a hbb with a harness and keep your 3 yo harnessed until he hits 41 lbs. it could be a long time and a 5 pt is safer...for everyone. too bad we adults can't drive in them LOL*
Darn! I have a five point harness seat for him but I stopped using it b/c I hate it. The straps are always tangled, which I imagine if I don't untangle they won't work properly - plus it is so hard to adjust the straps - so if he's wearing a winter coat it might be too tight and then when he's wearing no coat it's too loose and it takes me _forver_ to fix the darn things right. He's not exactly the most cooperative in the seat in the first place so I liked the idea of being able to just let him sit and then strap the seat belt on and being done with it (though he has recently learned to unbuckled the seat belt - which is a whole other issue we're dealing with). Since I freaked the only time he did it while I was driving - I immediately pulled over and fixed it while explaining to him in my paniced mommy voice how very unsafe it was to do it - it hasn't happened since, but I don't like knowing he could do it. I think I've seen things that go over the seat belt latch so they can't undo it - I have to find one just to reassure myself that he's not undoing the belt while I'm driving.

So anyway - can you recommend a good 5 pt harness seat with straps that don't tangle every second and are easy to adjust - any such thing out there?

Again thank you sooo much for answering all these questions. I can't believe car seat installation is so complicated, no wonder most of us are doing it wrong. You think they would come up with something easier don't you? Even if we get a new car I'm definately going to take it in the local expert and make sure I've got the baby seat in right - of course that's after I go out and buy a new baby seat b/c I bought ours second hand - <sigh> -


----------



## Sandra Dee (Aug 5, 2002)

"as for the toddler unbuckling the baby's seat...well...that's a teaching issue"

No - I meant inadvertantly. Which is why I also added that I have done it myself a couple times.

It is too difficult to see where your hand is when you have three carseats in a row, and all too often the five year old will accidentally unbuckle the middle belt instead of their own.


----------



## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Ok I swear I'm going to stop asking questions one of these days, but what about one of these for a 5pt harness car seat. Is it safe?

http://www.netkidswear.com/totngoporcar.html

It would take up a lot less space, but I didn't know if it was as safe as a regular seat

Celestial







- seriously? What is a person supposed to do in the middle of a New England Winter - not put a heavy jacket on their child? I'm not directing my grumpiness towards you (don't want to kill the messenger - I appricate you telling me this). I'm just getting so frustrated with this whole car seat thing. I feel like no matter what I do my kids aren't as safe in their car seats as I always imagined they were.









Maybe I'll just start duck taping them to the back seat - that should do it right?


----------



## jaylind (Nov 19, 2001)

i have to get my kids in the bath and i'll be back. i just wanted to say don't buy the tote n go. also celestial is right about the compression of jacket material.

before i return i will look for some pics.

any seat with a harness will have twisty straps unless it's made by britax or fisher price (fp no longer produces carseats but you can find them NIB on ebay...).

brb


----------



## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Figured the tote 'n go wouldn't be very safe, but I thought I'd ask - would have given us a bit more wiggle room back there.

I dug out my ds's old five point harness seat which I hate, but will live with for now at least. I flattened out the straps and fitted it on him with his light jacket on and I hope it stays warm out for awhile







I'll have to look into the Britax brand if it truly has straps that managed not to tangle.

Thanks for all your help!


----------



## jaylind (Nov 19, 2001)

ohhhhh believe me...britax harness straps DO NOT TWIST EVER. that's why people pay so much for the seats. it's a damn shame other manufacturers don't use the better grade webbing......ok that's another post so i'm stopping there LOL

here's a used seat checklist that answers better your questions about a used carseat.

with your almost 40 lbs toddler, if you really want to keep him in a 5 pt for longer, there are a couple of options. ok there are 3 options but one won't fit in your car (the britax super elite/husky). the two options you can use are the britax marathon (up to 65 lbs harnessed) and the safety baby airway (up to 50 lbs harnessed).

the britax marathon is a convertible seat just like the other convertible seats (rear and forward facing) you've seen and i imagine like the 5 pt harness you have had in the past. the difference is that it's taller and has a heigher weight limit for larger children. i *think* it's the same comparable width as other convertible seats. it does NOT function as a booster seat in any way. once your child outweighs this seat, you have to get a booster until he's at the minimum weight/age in your state to ride booster free (every state has different laws on this...most have gone to at least 6 yrs AND 60 lbs but some are 8/80. others have not changed the laws at all.









anyway, i have never touched with my hands (LOL) a marathon but i've looked at an safety baby airway and i don't like them because the crotch strap is a bit long, making the part of the harness that fits over the thighs actually quite tall, up over the abdomen, which is a big no-no for crash safety. it's nice that the company tried but i won't be buying one. if you are interested in them, usually burlington coat factory has them for about $99. the airway DOES covert to a booster when your toddler gets above 50 lbs.

ok....about those thick coats...here's a pic of a crash test on a child dummy, forward facing. notice the forward movement. that's what celestial was talking about with the thick jacket. see how much movement is there? your child's body will sustain a LOT of force in a crash. if a thick coat gets between him and the straps or lap/shoulder belt, there is more slack and more room for his body to move in a crash. ok here's the pic: http://www.cpsafety.com/images/CrashTest.jpg

some people warm up the car and take the children out in their coats and then take off the coats in the car, strap the child in, and put the coat on backwards to cover the arms and torso. a single layer of polar fleece is really as thick as you should go but as a parent i will admit strapping my children in with their coats on....BUT i live in northwest oregon and we don't have snow here...so our coats are what most people call jackets LOL mostly polar fleece, rarely thicker than that.

ok....how to use the 5 pt harness you have right now. take the straps completely off the seat. note how they are threaded. your seat's owner's manual should have a threading diagram but sometimes they are quite poor







you can wash the straps in a cold or warm water wash and AIR DRY them. NEVER apply heat to a harness or any other washable part of a carseat. DO NOT put them in the dryer!!! make sure they are flat when you hang them to dry. once they are dry, they should be much easier to keep flat for a while. you WILL have to smooth them every time you use them, i do it on my dd's century seat. what i do is i buckle the retainer clip (chest clip) and then i grab the male part of the buckle on the harness and slide it up towards the retainer clip to get all the strap smooth. then i apply tension to it and slide it back down to buckle in. i do this every time i buckle her in, it sounds like a lot to do but it's really just second nature now.

OH...now that i've typed all that i just remembered a 3rd option you could use...if you can find one...it's the fisher price futura 20/60. it's a forward facing only child restraint, very easy to install....check the book though because it has a very unique belt path, much different than other seats...it doesn't require a top tether because of the belt path. anyway...i have seen them on ebay, there is a tray sheild 3 pt version and a 5 pt version...you want the 5 pt. if you find one NIB (new in box) then it'd be ok...make sure you contact the seller, are comfortable with their history, etc....anyway...they are rare and i've bid on a couple but they've always sold for over $200 and for that money i'd get a britax. anyway, the straps don't twist and fisher price doesn't make them anymore







they made the best carseats for the money but they got out of that business























a final thought....carseat manufacturers are NOT in business to keep our children safe. a couple manufacturers are more serious about it than others but underneath it all they are out there to MAKE MONEY. be educated and don't let them dupe you. marketing is everything.























ok. more questions??


----------



## jaylind (Nov 19, 2001)

ok i looked around a bit and since you mentioned the tote n go i'll throw this in...

those portable child restraints are pretty much all junk...except one brand....e-z-on. you can look at their child restraint vests and other options at www.ezonpro.com

i haven't looked much lately but i think their universal harness is for a tether anchor and for kids 40+ lbs so your toddler isn't there yet....and i bet he won't be there when your baby comes....3 lbs is a long time in 3 yo land LOL

they also have a vest that you can use for smaller kids but i think it needs a tether bracket also...? or you have to bolt it to the vehicle seatbelt anchors...something like that. i know that once you install it, it's there for a long time, not really portable like the cheapie you were looking at...

anyway NHTSA endorses the e-z-on line of products and they don't endorse any of that other stuff like the tote 'n go or a mighty tite or anything like that....i will look a little more at ezon maybe tomorrow....


----------



## jaylind (Nov 19, 2001)

ok i added my disclaimer to my sig LOL and it wasn't showing up in this thread yet...


----------



## Britt (Nov 19, 2001)

Hi jaylind,

May I interject with a slightly off-topic question? We have a baby on the way and will need a new car seat. I've been shopping around and considering both American and Swedish seats. Here's what I want to know: Cost totally aside, what seat or combination of American seats would you say is closest to ideal? Just your personal opinion would be great.

We've been thinking of buying a Swedish seat because they allow longer rear-facing, but the Britax models seem to allow rear-facing until 3ish, which is a good long time. The Swedish models are much more challenging to attach to the car, and we never move one once we have it strapped in. (I swear, it attaches in five places to be "properly" installed. The one we're using is five years old though -- maybe the newer models would be more intuitive.)

My closest friend is a journalist who writes for a traffic safety magazine here in Sweden, and her recitation of truly awful statistics has convinced me that we should buy whatever's best, and consider the cost worth every penny. Sorting out what's best -- that's more challenging.

I'd love to hear your opinion!

Brittany


----------



## jaylind (Nov 19, 2001)

well, the law may decide for you.

if you live in sweden and are visiting the us, it's fine to use your swedish seat that you would have bought and used back home.

but if you move here, you need to buy and use an american seat with american labels.

it's actually illegal to be driving around with the labels missing from the seat (those stickers that say stuff like "meets FMVSS213" and "don't use in front of an airbag" etc...).

your side thingy says you're moving here....? how long will you be in sweden with the new baby? or will you be having the baby here?

if you are having the baby here then just get the britax. the marathon is the seat that will last the longest and will stay rearfacing as long as any other britax convertible that can be used rearfacing.

i don't know about laws in sweden but if you have the baby there, you may get stuck having to use a swedish seat and then buy another one when you move to the states.


----------



## Britt (Nov 19, 2001)

We'll be back in the U.S., but many of the Swedish seats are approved for use in America; all the Britax seats you're talking about are sold and approved for use in both countries. We'll probably end up with a Marathon.

We're using a combination of American and Swedish seats here, I have no idea if that's legal or not. Not to be overly dismissive of the law, but frankly, the regs in the U.S. for toddlers are literally killing children. I'm more concerned about safety than legality, and while there's some overlap between the two, American one-year-olds wouldn't be driving around facing forward if legal equaled safe. Sounds like the Britax will work for us, but personally I wouldn't hesitate to buy and use a Swedish seat with a much higher safety rating *if* I couldn't keep my child rear-facing three years in an approved American seat. Evidence-based safety records are the deciding factor for me.

I really appreciate all your great advice, you've been so generous with your time in this thread. Thanks.


----------



## jaylind (Nov 19, 2001)

while i totally agree with you in your thinking, i, of course, could not advise you to do that. LOL!

sounds like you already have your answer.

i don't have any experience with swedish seats but i do love britax. they are the manufacturer with their own testing lab and sled, etc....they are the *one* manufacturer that does seem interested in child passenger safety beyond making a buck. and i think they think like you do.









i also agree that money should not be a factor....unfortunately as a single mom i can't yet afford that marathon for my dd....but we have another pound or so to go before i have to really make a decision....a pound is a long time in 3.5 yo land.....

as far as swedish seats being approved for use here in the us, i have not heard of that but that's not to say it's not true....laws and such are in a constant state of flux and it's very hard to keep up. if they have the FMVSS 211,213, & 225 labels, then they very well may be legal here because that is the deciding factor between identical seats labelled for market in the us and canada...for example a fisher price grow with me made and labelled for canada is technically not legal here...but it's exactly the same as the us grow with me. and again of course, as a tech i can't say it's ok to use the canadian seats here........

you are welcome...it's really no big deal for me to spend time talking about this...like i said, it's an addiction LOL!

dotcommamma i hope i have answered your questions and again don't at all hesitate to ask more. i don't mind at all.


----------



## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Thanks Jaylind you've been a huge help. I went to see the police officer yesterday that handles car seat safety - he said there was no way I was going to fit three car seats in the back of my car - at least not the seats I have right now. So - we'll be buying a new car.

As for the car seats for my 3yr old - the Britax looks great - but whoooo







is it expensive. So I'm putting that on my wish list of things to get down the road, but not today.

So all I've got left now is to choose an infant seat - any recommendations?


----------



## Sandra Dee (Aug 5, 2002)

We LOOOVE our Graco Snug - something. Snug Fit? Snug Ride?
They were recalled initially b/c of a bar that was not installed in all of the bases, but now they are fine.









It is a five point harness, the straps never seemed to twist or anything. It has these little controls on the bottom of the seat to adjust the belts SOOO easily (crucial with a tiny one who grows quickly). You just turn the little handles clockwise or push the tabs in (on both sides - kids can't do it) to release the belts. No slipping the metal bar through the back in an attempt to get a snug fit. - HEY - that's why!









Anyway, it came with a little boot to go over the bottom (to cover baby's legs) which was nice for cool days (no blanket over the top and even those sherpa lined carseat covers tend to cover a tiny baby's face). It also came with an infant headrest support thing in it.

The handle was not uncomfortable, and the awning provided a perfect amount of shade without heating up the baby inside it.

HTH!!


----------



## Missgrl (Nov 18, 2001)

Moving this to Parenting Issues now!


----------



## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Ok - Missgrl - thanks.


----------



## jaylind (Nov 19, 2001)

yup, most techs i know like the graco snugride. do look into that recall, though...i'm pretty sure some stores may be selling old stock that falls under the recall. even if you buy a recalled seat, the company will send you the fix for free and after that they are fine. here's the recall information: http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/pr...callsearch.cfm or you can look at a list at www.carseat.org BUT they won't let you print the list or copy the text in any way....it's supposed to be reserved for techs but even we have to PAY for it grrrr.....

anyway....i had an evenflo infant seat for my kids and i wasn't fond of it but i was careful to always check the things that were problems and it was fine. my nephew is using it for his son now and that will be the last baby that rides in it, it's getting too old.

YES that marathon is spendy!!!! arrrghghghgh! i want one, too.









those sherpa covers are not ok if they go behind the baby, between his back and the carseat....because if you already have a jacket on the baby, that combined with the cover can get to be too much padding. best to just use blankets on top of the baby.

babies are tiny when you put them in that great big new seat....once you have the baby all snug and the harness is secure, etc, it's fine to roll up some receiving blankets and tuck them around the baby and even up under the legs....just be sure everything is tight before you do that.
























edited to add this link for carseat.org for the recall info: http://www.carseat.org/Recalls/recall.shtml


----------



## chellemarie (Jan 17, 2003)

"And you don't want to put a child w/o a car seat next to one with one, as they can be crushed in a collision."

Good Christ. Am I going to have to buy four vehicles? I can only see the above working if I only have two children, space them very far apart OR drive one vehicle while TOWING ANOTHER!

And the thing with the coats. Getting kids all bundled up to go somewhere just to take it all off while standing in the car with the doors open? I'd have to bundle one, take him out, UNbundle him, strap him in. Repeat. Repeat. Then I'd have to have them stand in the car while RE-bundling them up just so they can get out of the car and go into our destination to get UNbundled AGAIN!

This means I have to get up at 4am rather than 5.

I'm going to have to take a serious nap now.

Thanks for all the info & the links.


----------



## Jish (Dec 12, 2001)

I have a booster that the straps don't twist on!!!! It is the Graco precious car go, or treasured car go, or whatever. They are basically the same seat with different names. They make several models and we got ours about a year ago. It is adjustable via an adjuster on one of the straps that can be tightened or loosened. It is a great seat and I love that the straps don't twist.

BTW, I live in Iowa and my kids didn't wear their coats in their car seats. I dressed them warmly, put them in the car, took their coats off, strapped them in and had blankets for them to put over themselves until the car warmed up. There just isn't any way to get a child into their car seat correctly while wearing a winter coat.


----------



## LunaMom (Aug 8, 2002)

This is a great thread. I'm pretty knowledgeable about car seat safety, and it freaks me out to see how unsafe many of my friend's children are in their cars! And, wow, jaylind, you are such a wonderful source of important information...thank you!









I have one of those Graco CarGo seats as an extra seat (I carpool and take two other children along with my dd to preschool) and I really like the way the strap adjuster is on the actual straps, rather than having a strap at the bottom of the seat that you pull and it tightens the straps from the back. It's much easier to get the straps tight enough this way!

The only thing with this seat is that it has high sides, like a regular car seat. My dd's booster, a Century next Step, has "armrest" sides that swivel down once you start using the seat with the shoulder belt rather than the harness. If you were using a CarGo as a belt-positioning booster and you had two other seats next to it, it would be nearly impossible to get to the female part of the seat belt if the seat adjacent to it also had high sides. Does that make sense? I had two kids in my car next to each other in CarGos - the one in the center uses the harness, because he's too little for the shoulder belt, and it was hell trying to buckle the child on the side in, while my own dd, on the other side in her Century, was easier because her seat has no sides (I do need to wiggle her seat out a little to buckle her, then wiggle her back and tighten the belt). Since the other child is still under forty pounds, we just put the harness back in! Sorry if this is confusing!


----------



## jaylind (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

And you don't want to put a child w/o a car seat next to one with one, as they can be crushed in a collision
nope, not true. don't worry about it. lateral crashes are rare, the lion's share of crashes statistically are 1. front of the car and 2. back of the car. no, you don't have to buy four cars and tow them all around. we call all only do the best we can do LOL and in a lateral crash, if a child's carseat is properly and securely attached to the vehicle seat via seatbelt (including bpb's) then the chances of that are rare....a seatbelt is designed to withstand forces of 6000 lbs. if you have a lateral crash that introduces more force than that anywhere near a child in a carseat, you will have other stuff to worry about besides anyone getting crushed by a carseat





















perish the thought, i know....i just wanted to clarify that point a little bit.

the guideline about the coats is the absolute truth. nobody made that up just to make parents crazy, i swear. look at those crash pics i posted....those are with a dummy tightly secured. imagine what would happen if a child were in a heavy coat and that happened























i have heard about the carGo but i don't have any experience with one. i know people who love them and i know people who hate them.


----------



## sunmountain (Nov 19, 2001)

Thanks for clearing that up jaylind







It was always a fear of mine to put my dd1 in next to any of the carseats b/c of this. I'm glad to hear my fears are unfounded. One more thing to add to my list of "things NOT to worry about" Yes, even after four kids, I can learn something, too!


----------



## jaylind (Nov 19, 2001)

a couple last thoughts:

here's a better pic and discussion of head excursion and also a very good reason to tether your child's carseat if possible and if the manufacturer allows (most bpb's in booster mode say don't tether).

http://www.saferidenews.com/html/chi..._articles.html

and also i posted this on the bfeeding board a couple days back, it's good advice to remember:

http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...331#post482331


----------



## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

jaylind - you can't nurse in a moving car even if you're in your seatbelt in the back seat next to a child strapped into their car seat? Really?


----------



## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Man that stinks!


----------



## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

Here is an option for you, and I havent read the entire thread to know if this has been suggested or not.
I had a Taurus with three kids. It worked for about six months. Had one Cosco Booster Seat, an infant seat, and one child not in a car seat. Driving in the car made us all miserable. After one day of going out to a doctors appointment, the kids fighting over personal space, the baby screaming in his car seat, my husband said I want a bigger car or van. So I decided to trade even on my paid for Taurus. It had 30000 miles on it and was almost three years old, I went online got the value of it, priced some vans that were a similar value and went to four different dealerships until I found one to do an even trade. I had a another car by nightfall and it didnt cost me a thing. This is the second time I have done this by the way. It takes some work but can be done. Our neighbors had a station wagon and needed a van, they still had a note, but with some careful manuvering they traded even, kept the same note for the same length of time. The key is finding someone willing to help you and knowing what is out there and what vans or larger cars are worth. You can do by looking at kelly blue book online or edmunds.


----------



## nikirj (Oct 1, 2002)

You know, Walmart and some Sears (depending on the salespeople) will let you take carseats out to the car and try them out. In your situation, I would measure the width of the available seats, find the 'trimmest' ones, and see if you can juggle them around to fit in the car. Sure, you may have to buy a whole new set of carseats, but it is cheaper than a new car ;-).


----------



## HBBFJenn (Feb 28, 2003)

And all three are in car seats. DD-6 1/2 ds-4 and baby dd 9 mos. I have had all three smashed in the backseat of our old cavalier and mils altima. It is possible to buckle three kids in a sedan but it is not fun. In mils car we can't get all three seats buckled in straight, older dd and ds boosters are sort of crooked and you have to slam the door hard to even get it shut. And then kids are always bothering the baby. Plus buckling them up is hard, my dh couldnt b/c his hands were too big. And there is no where to put stuff, we had to keep the diaper bag in the trunk. 3 kids , all in carseats, in a sedan, is just a bunch of trouble imo. Since the current safety recomendations are in a booster until 80 lbs 4'9, I would only stay in a sedan if the oldest were somewhere near that and would be able to sit in the seat soon.
We also had a minivan, and it feels imo like driving a boat. The blind spots are huge , my blind spot held a huge mack truck which smashed into me and totaled my minivan. I now drive a dodge durango with a 3rd seat. I have ds and older dd in the 3rd seat in their graco turbo boosters (britax copies at half the price) and baby dd in her britax roundabout in the middle seat, behind the passenger seat, I may move her to the middle of the 2nd seat.
We have room for 2 more people and room in the back for groceries and kid stuff. I love the suv much better than the minivan. My minivan was leaking black and orange stuff, so I don't feel the suv is polluting the environment, certainly not any worse than the minivan was. Also my suv is the same on gas, 25$ a week and our gas is 1.70 a gallon.

Jenn


----------



## Jish (Dec 12, 2001)

We just switched from an Altima to a Dodge Grand Caravan. I have to admit that I have absolutely no idea how you got three carseats into the back of an Altima. I have never been able to do it. The only way we could get three kids in the back of the car was when we switched our oldest to a booster without a back. Then, we had the child in the carseat in the middle, my child in the low booster on one side, and a child who didn't need a carseat or booster on the other side. I'm concerned because the carseats have to be tight to the car, and if one is trying to put three carseats in a car that is too small for them, one of the seats may seem tight, but it might be because it is smashed against another. Unfortunately, that doesn't offer protection in a crash.

I was nervous about moving to a minivan because I was afraid I wouldn't be able to see well. I have to say that is not even an issue. I have an even better field of vision than I ever expected. The mirrors are great, and I don't worry at all while driving it. It is a 2002, so perhaps they have made changes along the way to give it better visibility. I have two friends who both drive Honda Odysseys and both of them have backed into other vehicles that they just didn't see, even thought they looked carefully. They all have different fields of vision, but most of the newer ones I drove provided great views in all directions.


----------



## jaylind (Nov 19, 2001)

celestial is right, yup it's true, you should not nurse a baby in a moving car leaning over his seat even if you are both buckled in. ok that was a convoluted sentence LOL but i think you KWIM

here's why...when you are leaning over his seat, you are not secured properly by your shoulder belt...so if the car crashes at that moment, your body is likely to fly into the baby. don't think it'll hurt him? force on the baby is your weight multiplied by your speed (approx). if you are 100 lbs (or if your torso is 100 lbs, to be more exact), and the car is traveling at 30 mph and hits something causing it to stop, the force your torso exerts is approximately 3000 lbs. i don't know any babies that can stand that much force. sure, their carseat might have high sides and prevent some of the force but you really never know....conditions can be really freaky sometimes. it's just not worth it.


----------



## jaylind (Nov 19, 2001)

one other thought dotcommamma, if you haven't bought that new car yet LOL

the parentsplace carseat board is very active with 3-5 techs there....they have lots and lots of collective experience and they might have some suggestions for you as to brands and models of seats....there is a tech there with 3 seats in the back of a neon...

http://boards2.parentsplace.com/cgi-bin/boards/carseats


----------



## Clarity (Nov 19, 2001)

It is worth it to me, but there ya go. Not everyone makes the same choices.

----

As to three across, the parents place car seat board has had a number of moms do that successfully in different sedans...you might try there. I have a larger sedan, but found the old FP stay in views were pretty narrow. We did do 2 SIV and 1 RA across the back once or twice.


----------



## jaylind (Nov 19, 2001)

i used to think the same thing until i started watching crash footage







i'd much rather pull over now.


----------



## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Quote:

_Originally posted by jbcjmom_
*I have two friends who both drive Honda Odysseys and both of them have backed into other vehicles that they just didn't see, even thought they looked carefully*








Guess what I just bought - LOL! Actually we drove both the Grand Caravan and the Odyssey and liked the Odyssey better - both seemed to have the same range of sight - backing up or changing lanes - maybe the Odyssey has made some changes, this is a 2003 (I hope so!)

I am nervous about learning to handle such a big car. I've always had small cars, but when I took my car into the safety seat inspector he told me there was just no way three seats were going in my back seat safely - so we started looking for bigger cars. The minivan is going to be great b/c each child will have their own personal space - so I'm hoping we'll be avoiding the "Mom he's on my side!" issues







and minivans have such good safety ratings that makes me feel good. Luckily the only driving I have to do right now is to take my ds to pre-school three days a week and that's only five minutes down the road, so I plan on not driving it much until dh has time to go out with me in it and help me get the feel for highway driving - changing lanes, etc and help me practice backing up and so forth.

When I test drove the minivans I made sure to try backing up and seeing what my field of vision was like - between the Caravan and the Odyssey I thought they were both pretty good. Of course not equal to that of a small car, but for a minivan I felt it was good.


----------



## Jish (Dec 12, 2001)

Congrats on your purchase.







I've been driving our van for almost two weeks now. I still won't parallel park it, and even parking in regular parking spaces freaks me out a bit because of the wider turning radius. I just park farther away now.







I actually had to run to the store last night and I took the Altima (still don't have the title yet so can't give it to the buyer yet.







: ) and I never thought I'd say I liked the van better, but I do. I felt much more vulnerable in the car, and found I tended to drive much faster.







: I think it's because I'm little and speedy in the car. I like that I sit so much higher in the van. The mirrors in the Grand Caravan let me see nearly everything without a blind spot. I am really surprised how much I like the van, considering the tripidation I had about getting one. I still feel like I aged about 10 years, but oh, well.

Just get out there and drive, baby!!!


----------



## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Thanks jbcjmom!







- We pick the van up tomorrow!

Oh and I know - I can't believe I'm going to be a minivan mama - when did I get so old!


----------

