# I need HELP!!!!



## TryingMyBest (Aug 14, 2007)

I have two sons that are circumcised and I just had a third son. My husband and I are in debate over the circumcision...and at this point he is so frustrated with me that he is "throwing his hands up". I have done ALL the research I can possibly do. The last day that my insurance will pay for the procedure is at the end of this week, so we have to make a decision. I wanted to ask you fellow mothers about the long term effects of NOT circing. I have been so distraught by this decision that I have been emotionally a mess and I can't even eat.

While I now know all of the effects of circing...I am concerned on the last leg about how my boy will grow up being the minority. Can you guys tell me how your boys were affected by being different? Did they want to be circed later? Please help me here....the clock is ticking.


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

Where do you live?

I live in the east coast, and I wasn't circumcised and I never had any problems. Medically or socially.

There are no "long-term" effects of not circing. That's the norm, the default. That's like asking what of the long-term effects of not removing your eyelids.


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## Fi. (May 3, 2005)

Quote:

I wanted to ask you fellow mothers about the long term effects of NOT circing.
Um, there are no negative ones. At all. Are you having negative affects because of your foreskin as an adult? No? It's pretty likely your son won't either.

Quote:

I am concerned on the last leg about how my boy will grow up being the minority. Can you guys tell me how your boys were affected by being different? Did they want to be circed later?
While most of us have boys too young to answer these, I can talk to you about a survey I read...I'm not positive where it was from and I want to say Men's Health but I can't for sure.

Of the respondants who were cut, about 20% were unhappy with it (extremely high for a cosmetic surgery). Of the guys who weren't cut, 3% were unhappy with it.

The difference between the two groups? The intact guys have the freedom to do something about it if they feel so inclined that doesn't involve years of wearing a device on their penis for a mere facsimile.

Answer me this: How does your son having a foreskin affect YOU. It doesn't. It affects HIM for his entire life.

Trust me, as someone who suffered for over 6 years because of my mother in law deciding to butt in her son's sex life, I can tell you this - stay out of your son and his future partner's bed.

ETA:

Answer me this too: Would you remove your daughters foreskin? Yep, girls have them too. And they have smegma and "higher HIV risks" just like a boys. And some think the vaginal area looks nicer without a foreskin. Does that make you want to run out and circumcise a female child? If not, then maybe you should question why you want to do the same thing to a male child.

Also with the circumcision rate (nationally) below 60% (below 30% on the west coast) your kid won't be alone. At all.

And there's plenty of threads on how to explain why brothers are different.


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## Claire and Boys (Mar 27, 2007)

Depends where you are, but from what I hear, intact boys are NOT in the minority in many states now, rates are around 50% overall. So any child being spared circ these days will certainly not be alone.
I'm in the UK so it does not really apply to us, circ is virtually unheard of. But physically certainly my boys have no problems with being intact. Men over here aren't queuing up to get disease ridden foreskins cut off.

I would say that there are FAR more long term consequences of circing than not circing and they are far more important than the locker room. http://www.circumstitions.com/Complic.html


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Since 80% of the worlds population is intact and almost 50% of those are in the USA (if you live here) your ds will not really be in the minority.

Please leave your little one intact he deserves the right to enjoy his whole body.

Like a pp said there are no down sides to being intact. It is how men were supposed to be made or they wouldnt be born with a foreskin.

Your dh will get over it and ask him if he ever set down and compaired genitals with his dad. I bet the answer will be no. And if it comes up with your other ds's then you explain to them that you thought you were doing what was right at the time but now you know it was wrong and appologize to them.

You said you have done all the research you can do. *Have you watched the video linked to here what circ is like?
Have you learned that to preform the circ the dr actually stimulates a erection to do the cut? So the boys first sexual experiance is with this stranger?
Have you learned that the foreskin is fused to the head of the penis like the fingernail is to the nail bed and has to be ripped apart?
Have you learned that 10% of boys who are circed have complications that need surgery later?
Have you learned that no anesthesia is used?
Have you learned that it isnt your body to cut on?
It belongs to your son no one else has the right to do cosmetic surgery on him.*

Your dh will get over it mine has and if he dosnt then he isnt the man you thought he was. I dont mean any of the above to be snarky they are facts and I want you to know them if you dont already. I have to assume you dont know them or you wouldnt still be considering doing this to your helpless newborn.








to you and I will pray you make the right decision.


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## veganf (Dec 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
I am concerned on the last leg about how my boy will grow up being the minority. Can you guys tell me how your boys were affected by being different? Did they want to be circed later? Please help me here....the clock is ticking.

80% of the world's men are intact...circ'd is the minority!
My husband is circ'd, all of our boys are intact. They've never asked him about why he is "different" since little boy penises (intact or cut) don't look anything like adult penises.







As for comparing with siblings, my boys do that even though they're all intact: the oldest has a very tight short foreskin, the middle is partly retractable with a long foreskin he likes to play with and stretch like taffy, and the baby actually looks quite long compared to his brothers and already retracts somewhat when he handles his own penis. At least you'll be able to give a concrete reason why they look different, I just have to pull the old "everybody's different" card.








No way should you circ him now that you are more educated about it!


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

Please read this thread....

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=728522

Alot of people share their stories on "minority" status here:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...light=matching

I applaude you for finding the courage to embrace the notion that your son will be born perfect. I will bet you that he will not only thank you for leaving his body alone, but he will be _happy_ that you "gave him" the gift of genital integrity.


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## TryingMyBest (Aug 14, 2007)

I am still reading the answers..there are so many so fast! I really appreciate you guys getting back to me so quick. I didn't write very much about myself or my family in the original post but will after I am done reading. The only thing I want to beg of you when you reply is PLEASE PLEASE be sensitive to how I feel right now. I pulled my son off of the circumstraint in the hospital at the last minute strictly on maternal instinct and a strange gut wrenching desire to climb out of my skin and go to him....

I didn't know ANYTHING about circumsion other than that I had two circed boys before that. This is all BRAND NEW to me...and as you can imagine...it's odd to stomach all of it. I have literally tortured myself by listening to the their screams online..knowing how bad the guilt would riddle me but searching for the therapeutic push to make this decision. I want to have support with this last niggling concern. I am scared to death that my son will say...WOW Mom, thanks SO much for not circumcising me...dripping with sarcasm. I am afraid that he will just want to be like everyone else but be too old to want to do the surgery because it IS such an undertaking for an older person.

These are my fears. It has nothing to do with the locker room. It has to do with accountability for his future feelings. He might not like being intact...as he might not like being circed. I know that a boy can decide later to be circed..but the truth is most don't. That can either be by satisfaction (I HOPE!!!) or fear of the procedure.

Anyway, please just remember that I am here....and literally I have been torn up and crying for days...over this. I can't handle being chastised for coming for help, KWIM? Sent with love...thank you again!


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

mama if your son is raised knowing what the foreskin is and why he still has his I doubt very seriously he will ever be upset about being intact. I intend to tell both my ds and dd how lucky they are to be intact and let them both know the valuable function of the foreskin.

Education goes a very long way in how a person feels about themselves no matter what the issue is. Many mom's here have had to explain to a older son why their younger brother is different and had to appologize for having them cut.

Many mom's here have grown sons who were taught growing up about the foreskin and are very thankful that they still have theirs.

I would rather have my ds come to me and ask why he was still intact than have him come to me and ask why I cut part of his penis off and took away his right to choose.

If someone is so upset about being intact they will have it done but like I said before if they know growing up how valuable the foreskin is they will never choose to have a procedure that will forever deminish their sex lives. The main thing about having it done as a adult is they can have the right pain relief and they dont have to sit with a open wound in pee and poo. A baby goes thru just as much pain as a adult only they cant tell you about it. Some say well it dosnt matter because they cant remember but everything that ever happens to us stays in our brain somewere and even if it isnt a contious memory it affects our lives.

I am so sorry that you are having a hard time with this and I honestly didnt mean in my pp to imply you were bad in any way or to criticize you. I just want you to know that you will be doing the very best thing for your son by leaving him intact.

That took real courage to go with your gut instinct and save your ds at the hospital. What it all comes down to is your mama bear is telling you this is wrong and going with that. We were given these instincts for a reason. Rely on them and you can never go wrong.


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## guestmama9908 (Jan 23, 2007)

Mama

I PM'd you some stuff


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## veganf (Dec 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
I pulled my son off of the circumstraint in the hospital at the last minute strictly on maternal instinct and a strange gut wrenching desire to climb out of my skin and go to him....

Wow, good for you listening to your gut!







It must have been hard being surrounded by people who wanted to cut your son.
I agree that if he really (I doubt) wants to be circ'd later in his adult life he can, and he can have proper pain relief. But restoring a removed foreskin is a very very long process, also uncomfortable, and still doesn't equal the real thing. You are most definitely doing the right thing by leaving the choice up to him someday when he is a consenting adult.







Right now the surgery would be painful cosmetic surgery on an unconsenting minor; later as an adult I'm sure he will understand the difference and why you made the choice you did for him.


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## Blu Razzberri (Sep 27, 2006)

Just three words: DON'T DO IT.

You know the consequence and pain of having it done. Trust your initial instinct!!!!

_I wish I had listened to my gut when my (now 4 year old) son was born!! I came here to post a question because he's complaining that his penis hurts, and I saw your post and had to respond!!! I pray my son's circumcision doesn't have complications!! You, on the other hand, don't have to worry that your son will have painful erections or worse.







Babies can die on the circ table too, as I'm sure you're incredibly aware. Why in blazes would you risk it? For social standing???? Teach him to strongly shun social trend because they're often dangerous._

If anything, you'll be explaining to your circ'd boys why you made the mistake of having them cut!! You can't take back a circumcision; but he can always have it done in the future if he really wants to. Leave it be, and let him make the choice later in life....PLEASE.

(I know you won't do it. PM me if you need to.)


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
The only thing I want to beg of you when you reply is PLEASE PLEASE be sensitive to how I feel right now. I pulled my son off of the circumstraint in the hospital at the last minute strictly on maternal instinct and a strange gut wrenching desire to climb out of my skin and go to him....









How scary that all must've been for both of you! But I think you had that feeling for a reason, mama.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
I am afraid that he will just want to be like everyone else but be too old to want to do the surgery because it IS such an undertaking for an older person.

This is a common fallacy. It is actually MUCH less of an undertaking for an older person. If a man past puberty decides to be circumcised, he gets anaesthetic and afterwards strong painkillers. He gets to make a decision about how much to have removed. The surgeon has the benefit of knowing exactly how much penis there is to work with, so there is no "surprise, we cut you as a newborn for a 6" penis and you grew up to have an 8" one, only there's not enough skin to go around so erections and intercourse will be painful". And most importantly, he knows exactly what's happening to him. He doesn't have to deal with the terror that a newborn does, thinking that he's going to die and never see his mother again.


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## tuansprincess (Oct 25, 2005)

I am so touched that you stood up to everyone and pulled him back to you. Bravo!







: Thank you for posting and doing whatever it takes to protect your children.


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## Blu Razzberri (Sep 27, 2006)

I'm posting again because I read the other members posts above, and





















4 years ago yesterday marks the 4th anniversary of the date that I subjected my own son to this.....

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MCatLvrMom2A&X* 
*...the foreskin is fused to the head of the penis like the fingernail is to the nail bed and has to be ripped apart....*

I wish someone had told me exactly this back then!!
I can't take back my mistakes, but...

_YOU KNOW BETTER_







LEAVE HIM ALONE!!!


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

My bet is that intact men don't circ themselves as adults because they are quite happy having a fully functional penis with full sensitivity. You have to remember the circ'd penis does NOT function the way a normal penis does. It has been permanently denuded and desensitized.

An important part of this whole process (educating your son) will go a very long way to helping him understand why he was left intact. It is your responsibility to teach him about all the benefits of being intact and also to remind him that circumcised boys are somewhat less fortunate than he is. This info. will help him _appreciate_ his status!

You CAN NOT undue a circ. Let your son make this decision for himself. IT is HIS penis. HE is the only one who should decide if he wants it modified permanently.


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## Bm31 (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
I am scared to death that my son will say...WOW Mom, thanks SO much for not circumcising me...dripping with sarcasm. I am afraid that he will just want to be like everyone else but be too old to want to do the surgery because it IS such an undertaking for an older person.

I know that a boy can decide later to be circed..but the truth is most don't. That can either be by satisfaction (I HOPE!!!) or fear of the procedure.

These aren't things to worry about. As you said, most intact males DON'T do it later because most of them wouldn't dream of it. For the ones that toy with the idea, I suspect most of them don't because they KNOW there will trade-offs for whatever positive they may perceive...and it has very little to do with fear of the actual surgery itself. I have read accounts of a FEW teens and adult men who do get it done, usually for psychological/social conformity reasons. Those that do make the choice for THEMSELVES are usually pleased with it and don't describe it as the horrendous experience that all the folklore would have you believe. Personally, I survived a re-circ at the age of six. I have very little recall of the "pain", though I know it wasn't exactly a fun thing, and the only life-long scarring I received was physical, not mental.

And the other thing to consider is that this generation is incredibly computer/internet savvy and much more informed on this issue than the last couple of generations of cut men. Even among teens now I've come across discussion of this issue and some are even restoring at that young age. The awareness is incredible and will surely keep growing. Even among the few that have chosen to get circ'd later, many will still express gratitude that their parents left the choice to them.


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## Blu Razzberri (Sep 27, 2006)

Just reading yours now; and.....

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
....I know that a boy can decide later to be circed..but the truth is most don't. That can either be by satisfaction...or fear of the procedure....

Ummm...out of curiosity... what makes you think that if an infant boy had the capacity to understand the procedure that he wouldn't fear it as well?!!?!?!?!?!?!









I know you asked for sensitivity; but I really don't think this is logical. If you've done your research, there shouldn't even be a shred of doubt; because you could teach your son what you know about the evils of circ when the situation arises.


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## TryingMyBest (Aug 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Papai* 
Where do you live?

I live in the east coast, and I wasn't circumcised and I never had any problems. Medically or socially.

There are no "long-term" effects of not circing. That's the norm, the default. That's like asking what of the long-term effects of not removing your eyelids.

We are in Georgia. Apparently the caucasian circ rate here is pretty high. CDC said like 84% at one point. Anyone have any better data than that?


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## TryingMyBest (Aug 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Fi.* 
Um, there are no negative ones. At all. Are you having negative affects because of your foreskin as an adult? No? It's pretty likely your son won't either.

While most of us have boys too young to answer these, I can talk to you about a survey I read...I'm not positive where it was from and I want to say Men's Health but I can't for sure.

Of the respondants who were cut, about 20% were unhappy with it (extremely high for a cosmetic surgery). Of the guys who weren't cut, 3% were unhappy with it.

The difference between the two groups? The intact guys have the freedom to do something about it if they feel so inclined that doesn't involve years of wearing a device on their penis for a mere facsimile.

Answer me this: How does your son having a foreskin affect YOU. It doesn't. It affects HIM for his entire life.

Trust me, as someone who suffered for over 6 years because of my mother in law deciding to butt in her son's sex life, I can tell you this - stay out of your son and his future partner's bed.

ETA:

Answer me this too: Would you remove your daughters foreskin? Yep, girls have them too. And they have smegma and "higher HIV risks" just like a boys. And some think the vaginal area looks nicer without a foreskin. Does that make you want to run out and circumcise a female child? If not, then maybe you should question why you want to do the same thing to a male child.

Also with the circumcision rate (nationally) below 60% (below 30% on the west coast) your kid won't be alone. At all.

And there's plenty of threads on how to explain why brothers are different.

You are exactly right about his foreskin not affecting me. I am not concerned about myself in this decision. I am not one to focus on if I am judged as a mother for not circing by traditionalist. I am only concerned about him.

Again, this is all brand new to me. Two weeks ago...I didn't know anything about the topic. I do not WANT to circumcize anyone, I just assumed that he might be miserable with a foreskin...because he would be the minority among his peers in our state. I know of women that say they would "run" from an uncirced penis. I am not one of them...and I can say that I probably wouldn't want him dating one of those girls anyway..however, that would again be his call.

Thank you for the response!


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## TryingMyBest (Aug 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MCatLvrMom2A&X* 
Since 80% of the worlds population is intact and almost 50% of those are in the USA (if you live here) your ds will not really be in the minority.

Please leave your little one intact he deserves the right to enjoy his whole body.

Like a pp said there are no down sides to being intact. It is how men were supposed to be made or they wouldnt be born with a foreskin.

Your dh will get over it and ask him if he ever set down and compaired genitals with his dad. I bet the answer will be no. And if it comes up with your other ds's then you explain to them that you thought you were doing what was right at the time but now you know it was wrong and appologize to them.

You said you have done all the research you can do. *Have you watched the video linked to here what circ is like?
Have you learned that to preform the circ the dr actually stimulates a erection to do the cut? So the boys first sexual experiance is with this stranger?
Have you learned that the foreskin is fused to the head of the penis like the fingernail is to the nail bed and has to be ripped apart?
Have you learned that 10% of boys who are circed have complications that need surgery later?
Have you learned that no anesthesia is used?
Have you learned that it isnt your body to cut on?
It belongs to your son no one else has the right to do cosmetic surgery on him.*

Your dh will get over it mine has and if he dosnt then he isnt the man you thought he was. I dont mean any of the above to be snarky they are facts and I want you to know them if you dont already. I have to assume you dont know them or you wouldnt still be considering doing this to your helpless newborn.








to you and I will pray you make the right decision.

Please do pray....I am also. I have just begged for an answer. Stupid society for putting these insane stigmas on us.

For your questions...
*Have you watched the video linked to here what circ is like? I could not watch it. I felt that I needed to though..but as you can tell it's a catch 22 for someone that has circed and is not opting not to. So, I pushed play watched as much as I could then turned my head and listened because I felt I needed to...I cried for about an hour.
Have you learned that to preform the circ the dr actually stimulates a erection to do the cut? So the boys first sexual experiance is with this stranger? I had NO idea.
Have you learned that the foreskin is fused to the head of the penis like the fingernail is to the nail bed and has to be ripped apart? I knew they were fused, I had heard the analogy before. Are you likening the pain as well?

Have you learned that 10% of boys who are circed have complications that need surgery later? Nope. DS2 has adhesions that we are hoping will come "undone" as he grows. Plastibell. DS1 had an adhesion "pulled" apart by a ped years ago.
Have you learned that no anesthesia is used? That is why I went to get him in the first place. That was a requirement.
Have you learned that it isnt your body to cut on? Again, major part of the problem.
It belongs to your son no one else has the right to do cosmetic surgery on him.*


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## guestmama9908 (Jan 23, 2007)

Mama I don't know if you got a chance to read my PM or not so I will restate what I think is a very important point.

The other aspect of this to consider is that circumcision is like playing russian roulette. The outcome depends completely on who performs the procedure and how they perform it. I think that every circumcision is probably different even if performed by the same physician because every penis is different. Just because your first son has had no complications doesn't mean your second son won't. I think the guilt would be beyond imagination if you chose to circumcise knowing what you now know and he came out with a complication.


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## glongley (Jun 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
Can you guys tell me how your boys were affected by being different? Did they want to be circed later?

My two intact sons are now 21 and 23. They are quite happy with having all their parts, and have thanked me for not circumcising them.

However, as they were growing up they dealt with life very differently. The older one was very easy going, never let anything bother him. The younger one was much more intense emotionally, and for a while was quite concerned with appearances and what other people thought of him - dyed his hair, wore the baggy pants, etc.

So the younger one, when he was 15, came to me and announced he wanted to get circumcised. Although I thought I had been a very open parent about sexuality issues (I am a nurse), it turns out that my son really knew very little about his foreskin or the procedure, and once he had the information, it became a non-issue. [This is a much longer story than what I will go into here.]

Every kid is going to be different in their temperament, some will be more affected by the little emotional twists and turns that come up with growing up; others, like my older son, everything just rolls right off their back.

We live in a culture that is still predominantly a circumcising culture (although we are unique in the world for this), so there may be some situations that come up where a boy might have questions, or feelings about not being circumcised. Not circumcising is the Big Unknown for a lot of parents, and all the "what ifs" float around in one's head when making this decision. However, in my experience the fact of the matter is that any kind of emotional stressor is very unlikely to occur, and if something does come up, it can be dealt with effectively with education and good parental support. No biggie, in other words, and no different from parenting a kid through any other tough situation that may come along the pike (and there are many much tougher than finding out one has all one's body parts!). And no need to do preemptive surgery to allay parents' fears of Worst Case Scenarios that are in reality not likely to happen.

I think the key is to educate them about their bodies, and about circumcision, so that they know the value of having a whole body, and that they are lucky to have escaped that particularly damaging cultural ritual.

I think dads really need to be on board with supporting their intact sons, so hopefully your husband will educate himself and covey a positive attitude to your son about his body. A father needs to be well-informed about issues surrounding circumcision in our culture and about the foreskin, so he can buy into the value of supporting the boy in being intact, not just be passive and uncommitted about the initial decision. My husband (circumcised) has never seen any good reason for doing it, and as he has learned more about circumcision he has had to do some grieving about it. He says although he really has nothing to compare to, he wishes he hadn't been circumcised, that he wishes he'd had a choice about it. My son is able to talk to him about it more freely than with me, and I think it is a good support that my son has heard from his Dad that he (my husband) wishes he weren't circumcised.

I just want to say that I am super-impressed with the protective intuition and courage that you allowed to guide you when you took your son off that circumstraint. You listened to your inner voice, and that is incredibly empowering. There are plenty of mothers who wish they had done the same, or been given the support to take that same action. You are going through a lot of turmoil, it seems, but really you should be dancing for joy and giving thanks that you and your son were spared from being dragged under by cultural insanity once more, and have chosen to respect his wholeness and your own maternal knowing. It sounds like, in truth, when you took your son off that circumstraint board, that the decision was actually already made. So take a deep breath and know that it is right.

You have found a great board for support. Hope these words give you the encouragement you are seeking.

Gillian


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## TryingMyBest (Aug 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Blu Razzberri* 
Just reading yours now; and.....

Ummm...out of curiosity... what makes you think that if an infant boy had the capacity to understand the procedure that he wouldn't fear it as well?!!?!?!?!?!?!









I know you asked for sensitivity; but I really don't think this is logical. If you've done your research, there shouldn't even be a shred of doubt; because you could teach your son what you know about the evils of circ when the situation arises.

I know the irony of what I said. It's a fear. A VALID fear to worry that your child will not be happy with your decision EITHER WAY. Surely, you have heard of boys that were intact that felt inferior and wanted to be circed??? That is all I was saying...there is a fear on both sides of the equation. Meaning you could worry if they were unhappy with circed or uncirced. Maybe I have overanalysed it. At this point...and possibly my hormones.../post partum feelings are taking over...I am thinking about every possible solution.

As for sensitivity...I asked for it because I have literally overdone the issue in my mind. Also, any group of people that have strong beliefs in emotional topics have to be very careful how they drive their points home to individuals that might have concerns or worries...or be on the fence on said subject matter. To make one feel alienated or WRONG for asking for help can drive them away. I would not run scared...but I have seen an attack on similar sites for other items...and it resembles a pirahna attack....various character jabs...stating the obvious to you might not be the obvious to another. The bottom line is that I am a mother that is in a tough spot here. I wanted to ask for sensitivity to start with so that we could avoid that. Sometimes our emotions can make us think illogically. You could ask my husband about it and he would tell you...I have been a blubbering mess...hardly capable of making a decision like this...but still having to.

ON a side note, when people who come for help are attacked...they tend to turn back to the most common source of suppor they know. Those are typically the SAME people that traditionalize the problem.

I am not feeling attacked...just wanted you to know where I was coming from in requesting sensitivity.


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## guestmama9908 (Jan 23, 2007)

Mama I am sorry if you feel attacked in any way by the responses here. People are very passionate about protecting little boys genital integrity.

The bottom line here is that you can make a decision for your son that is irreversible. He can restore if he chooses to later in life but it will not be the same and can take years. He will undergo an incredibly painful procedure without anesthia more than likely. The only reason this is even considered okay in our society is because newborn boys do not have a voice to complain about their treatment.

Or you can choose to allow him to remain intact and not subject him to that pain. If he is unhappy with his intact status he can choose to be circumcised later in life. He will then have the option of general anesthesia and proper post-operative pain management.








I can feel how conflicted you are.


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## DklovesMkandJK (Jun 18, 2007)

I just wanted to add some perspective and send you a big hug









My own intact son is only 15 months old so I'm sure that doesn't help you too much ( For what it's worth he does seem to be very happy with his intact penis







)

However, my brothers are 18 and 24 intact, and grew up in a time where circ rates were much much higher than they are now.

The oldest doesn't have much to say about the issue besides he was never teased by anyone and has never had any trouble finding women because of his foreskin. He said it is pretty much a total non-issue to him. He also said he would never circ because there is no reason to.

The younger one is a bit more vocal on the issue. He also said no one has ever commented to him on his penis. (his words are 'no one has ever said anything to me - doing so would be admitting you were looking at another guy's dick and no guy would ever admit to looking at another guy's dick.' He also said that in his high school it's about 50/50 anyway and we're in the east coast where rates are supposed to be higher)
He also said his foreskin is like his 'insurance policy' - He said if something ever comes out that proves circ is the way to go he can always have it done, but there are so many guys that certainly can't get a foreskin back. He also says that his girlfriend didn't even blink when he 'told' her about it.
He agreed with the older brother in that it was never really a big thing for him either.
He also says he would never circ - basically for the same reason - there is no reason for it.

* also, just for the record my brothers are intact but my father was circ'ed. It was never a problem for anyone.
DH is circ'ed also and like he said how often do you see your father's penis anyway?

I'll be happy to ask them any other questions you may have. (well, I'll ask the little one at least - the older one tends to look at me wierd when I ask about his peronal pieces







)

I hope that helps - good luck in finding some peace and I really hope you decide to not circ your new baby!


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

Here are links to statistics the latest i think are from 2004

http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/USA/

Quote:

Southern Region 58.5% All Regions 57.4%
http://www.cirp.org/library/statisti...taterates2004/
Your ds will be far from the minority being intact. Every year the rate drops & with any luck by the time my kids have kids circ will have went the way of the dinosaurs.


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## Blu Razzberri (Sep 27, 2006)

I have to say, I'm more than a little mad at you, on behalf of your infant; because frankly, it's looking to me like you're trying to find someone to tell you that it's ok to do it. I won't be that someone.

*Edited to add: While I was putting this post together, you replied to one of my other posts and basically said that if I say it too harshly, that you'll run off and do it because I scared you off with my meanness. It just kinda drove home that point.

You don't need an "out"...let's examine some of the things you've said, I'll give you some more information based on your 'concerns'...*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
...DS2 has adhesions that we are hoping will come "undone" as he grows. Plastibell. DS1 had an adhesion "pulled" apart by a ped years ago....









:







: BOTH your other sons have complications and you're STILL trying to justify not circumcizing your newborn!?!?!?!? Perhaps you need someone to spell out the obvious? ...Ok, I'll do it....

> It's a bad idea to circumcize <

You're lucky your older boys only have adhesions as complications. It can be much much worse.

I think what you're really trying to say here, is "someone tell me to ignore what I've learned because it's easier to have three circ'd boys than to justify explaining to the other two why I left their brother intact; because I know they're more likely to protest their circumcisions than their brother is to protest his foreskin"

I can help with that part. (You can find more valuable information on my blog - which can be found on the top right side of the page). Here's an excerpt from my "circumcision" entry....

Quote:

*What about expecting parents who have already circumcised their first son(s)?*

Some parents, even those who have newfound doubts about the ethics of circumcision, are tempted to circumcise their new baby boy if their other sons are already circumcised. They may worry that the older boys will resent them for allowing their penises to be cut while leaving their younger brother's penis intact. But continuing the cycle of genital mutilation will not make things better. The best thing for these parents to do is to leave their new son intact and explain to the older sons that when they were born, many people believed that circumcision was a harmless or even beneficial procedure. Now that more is known about circumcision, however, it is no longer routinely done and that is why their younger brother is intact.

I'm reading your recent responses; and....

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
....Apparently the caucasian circ rate here is pretty high. CDC said like 84% at one point. Anyone have any better data than that?...

Ok. Here's some better data: 100% of informed infants protest their impending circumcision. Oh wait....they have no idea what they're in for. But I bet they'd protest if they could be informed! (afterall, your son would probably protest to having it done as an adult, right?) At least as an adult, he will be able to take legal action if the surgery is botched. You can't do the same because they'll make you sign a waiver ...Wait! Waiver? What's that for?..... In case THIS happens. Then you can't hold the doctor accountable.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
...I am not concerned about myself in this decision....I am only concerned about him....

I'd be concerned about him too; because if you decide to do it; THIS is what he's in for (it's the intro page for the video. The video link is at the bottom)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
...I could not watch (the video)....I pushed play watched as much as I could....

If you can't watch the video; then you should probably question why you're going to subject his little body to something that's too painful even for you to WATCH.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
...I do not WANT to circumcize anyone....

GOOD. Then DON'T.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
... I just assumed that he might be miserable with a foreskin....

I'm miserable with the small boobs I have now, as an adult. I curse my mother regularily for not getting me breast implants when I was an infant so I didn't have to make the decision as an adult. _Damn you mom...why???_ Don't you know I had to go through highschool like this???







:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
...because he would be the minority among his peers in our state....

*gasp* We can't have THAT! It goes against our social attempts to look and act exactly the same!! You should probably ask the circ doctor to give him some tattoo's and body piercings while he's at it; because that's the current trend.

Listen; I know it's a bit harsh to say it like that; but seriously consider what I just said and why. Don't you want to teach your son to be original. If he conforms with the norm, he could end up in serious trouble. Doing this would be the first step towards being a conformist.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
...I know of women that say they would "run" from an uncirced penis.....

Pffft. A woman will always find at least one small fault in her man. If that fault happens to be foreskin; it's her loss.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
...I can say that I probably wouldn't want him dating one of those girls anyway..however, that would again be his call...

Well, if he's so in love with a girl that won't stay with him because he's circ'd; then I'm sure he'll be willing to endure the operation. But I'd be willing to bet that his response would be much like mine would be if I had a boyfriend who would only stay with me if I got implants... "there's the door, don't let it hit you on the way out!"

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
...Stupid society for putting these insane stigmas on us....

You're part of society; participate in undoing the stigma's one baby at a time. Start with yours....then tell your friends.

PS:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
...That is why I went to get him in the first place. (Anesthesia) was a requirement....

Usually, they actually don't even use the anesthetic, they just say they do; and then charge you for it. But even if they do, here's something to consider: would you let them cut a piece of your labia off with a local anesthetic? I wouldn't. When I had my son, I tore and had to get stitching. They gave me a local anestetic (which hurt in iteself) and I still felt every stitch.

Oh yeah, and the anesthetic they use isn't recommended for children!! (read about this here)







: How's that for irony?


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## TryingMyBest (Aug 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DklovesMkandJK* 







I just wanted to add some perspective and send you a big hug









My own intact son is only 15 months old so I'm sure that doesn't help you too much ( For what it's worth he does seem to be very happy with his intact penis







)

However, my brothers are 18 and 24 intact, and grew up in a time where circ rates were much much higher than they are now.

The oldest doesn't have much to say about the issue besides he was never teased by anyone and has never had any trouble finding women because of his foreskin. He said it is pretty much a total non-issue to him. He also said he would never circ because there is no reason to.

The younger one is a bit more vocal on the issue. He also said no one has ever commented to him on his penis. (his words are 'no one has ever said anything to me - doing so would be admitting you were looking at another guy's dick and no guy would ever admit to looking at another guy's dick.' He also said that in his high school it's about 50/50 anyway and we're in the east coast where rates are supposed to be higher)
He also said his foreskin is like his 'insurance policy' - He said if something ever comes out that proves circ is the way to go he can always have it done, but there are so many guys that certainly can't get a foreskin back. He also says that his girlfriend didn't even blink when he 'told' her about it.
He agreed with the older brother in that it was never really a big thing for him either.
He also says he would never circ - basically for the same reason - there is no reason for it.

* also, just for the record my brothers are intact but my father was circ'ed. It was never a problem for anyone.
DH is circ'ed also and like he said how often do you see your father's penis anyway?

I'll be happy to ask them any other questions you may have. (well, I'll ask the little one at least - the older one tends to look at me wierd when I ask about his peronal pieces







)

I hope that helps - good luck in finding some peace and I really hope you decide to not circ your new baby!

Thank you for such a sweet reply. Where are you guys at on the east coast? It sounds like your brothers really didn't have an issue. I hate to say it but it seems that white girls are the most "squeamish" about it..they have kind of nasty attitudes about oral sex on uncirced guys in some cases. Again, this probably shouldn't even be crossing my mind...but I just hope that he doesn't get given a social stint because of it. It's so sad that society makes us fear this. Do your brothers ever get involved in anticirc stuff?


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## TryingMyBest (Aug 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MCatLvrMom2A&X* 
Here are links to statistics the latest i think are from 2004

http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/USA/

http://www.cirp.org/library/statisti...taterates2004/
Your ds will be far from the minority being intact. Every year the rate drops & with any luck by the time my kids have kids circ will have went the way of the dinosaurs.

I saw this data and it made me smile. I just wish it wasn't done in the first dang place. One of my friends said that the changes could be attributed to immigration and taht the medicaid and state funded programs stopped covering. I guess atleast that part is true since the states that were taken off of coverage cut in half in 1-2 years. WOW. That is also sad because then it goes back to being a socioecomnic issue. That perpetuates that people with money and good healthcare get circed, KWIM?

I went to my ped the other day for the newborn check and asked them about circs in our area. 95% of whites are circed in his practice...they say. Said the latino community had low rates....like 30% circed...70% not.


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## Blu Razzberri (Sep 27, 2006)

One more thing: I realize that my responses probably appear to be an attack against you; but I want you to know they're not. Obviously you're a good mom because you're willing to shun the norm to do what's best. I think you're just waiting to hear the right thing.

My post is, however, a direct attack on that nagging "Bree VanDekamp - keeping up with the Jones's and maintaining appearances" voice in the back of your head. Read my blog; visit the links I put in the last post; plow through this information with determination. I guarantee that, come sunrise, you'll have that voice's mouth firmly duct taped on this issue.


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## jessjgh1 (Nov 4, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
I pulled my son off of the circumstraint in the hospital at the last minute strictly on maternal instinct and a strange gut wrenching desire to climb out of my skin and go to him....

Don't ignore that instinct... wow...

Quote:

...because it IS such an undertaking for an older person.
Why?? It is much harder on an infant than on a consenting adult who can understnad what is happening and can request and recieve adequate pain relief.

Quote:

...and literally I have been torn up and crying for days...over this. I can't handle being chastised for coming for help, KWIM? Sent with love...thank you again!
Hugs to you.... you have all the answers in your own post in your own words... listen to your instincts... reread what you have written and what you feel.

There is nothing natural or normal about strapping a baby down on a circumstraint and cutting his body... WHAT YOU HAVE DONE by reacting is normal-- protecting your son, trusting your instincts, honoring his body.

Circumcision is final.... you are not doing anything by leaving your son intact other than leaving him as he was born.

Keep us posted and let us know what further information you need.

Jessica


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## Leiahs (Jul 29, 2005)

Here's something to read that I think you might find very helpful about your fears









Quote:

Michael Copeland
American Academy of Pediatrics
141 Northwest Point Blvd.
P.O. Box 927
Elk Grove Village, IL 60009-0927

April 7, 1997

Dear Mr. Copeland:

The following quote has been called to my attention in a newspaper
article connected with the April 2 JAMA article on circumcision:

"If Dad is circumcised and junior is not," said Michael Copeland,
spokesman for the American Academy of Pediatrics, the son "may have
some psychosocial issues in that he looks different from Dad."

As a psychologist and the author of Circumcision: The Hidden Trauma, I
have done a thorough search of the literature to investigate this
belief. There is no published evidence whatsoever to support your statement.

This myth is the product of a psychological defense mechanism called
projection, the process of attributing feelings to others that belong to
oneself. It is the circumcised father who may have some psychosocial
issues if he looks different from his son. The fear of confronting these
issues in themselves motivates circumcised men to cling to the myth
that uncircumcised sons will have such issues. Furthermore, when the first
generation of American boys was circumcised, they looked different
from their uncircumcised fathers. This myth was not prevalent then because
uncircumcised men had no repressed feelings about how their penis
looked.

As part of the research for my book, I interviewed uncircumcised men
about their feelings. Their statements and other pertinent information
lead me to the following inferences regarding the decision to circumcise
for social or "matching" reasons:

The circumcision status of the father is not necessarily known or
important to a male child.

A circumcised boy who "matches" others may nevertheless have
negative feelings about being circumcised. These feelings can last a
lifetime.(1)

It is not possible to predict prior to circumcision how a boy will feel
about it later.

Even though uncircumcised men are in the minority, there is some
indication that most uncircumcised men are happy to be that way.

An uncircumcised man who is unhappy about it can choose to be
circumcised, but this is rarely done. The estimated rate of adult circumcision
in the United States is 3 in 1000.(2)

An uncircumcised man who is unhappy about his status may feel different
after learning more about circumcision and the important functions of
the foreskin.

The social factor is much less of an issue for boys born today because
of the lower circumcision rate (approximately 60 percent nationally,
under 40 percent in some states(3)).
These two accounts from mothers of uncircumcised sons add another
perspective to the discussion of choosing circumcision for social reasons.

"My youngest son [seven years old] is completely content at being
'different' from his father and [three] older brothers. When I
explained circumcision to him, his face took on a frightened expression as he
cupped his hands over his genitals and loudly declared, 'That is
never going to happen to me!!' "(4)

"When my eight-year-old son was five, he noticed a difference in the
appearance of the other boys' penises. I told him that's because
they had their foreskins cut off. He said, 'That's horrible.'
He's very adamant about it."(5)

I asked the second mother if I could talk with her son, Michael.
Because he lives in an area with a very high circumcision rate, he is the
only boy in his class who is not circumcised.

RG: How did you first learn about circumcision?

Michael: My mom told me when I was little, and she didn't want that
to happen to me.

RG: How do you feel about her not wanting to let it happen to you?

Michael: I'm glad 'cause it's scary. It's scary for a little
baby.

RG: At school, do the other kids have foreskins, or are they
circumcised?

Michael: They're circumcised.

RG: How does it make you feel when you see that they're circumcised?

Michael: Kind of sad, because they had it cut off.

RG: Do the other boys notice that you have a foreskin and they don't?

Michael: Uh huh. And they say my penis looks weird.

RG: What do you think when they say that?

Michael: I say, "No it doesn't. Yours looks weird." Then I tell
them why there is still skin over mine and not over theirs.

RG: Then what do they say?

Michael: Some say they don't believe it. Some just walk away.(6)

It appears that if an uncircumcised boy is given proper information, it
is possible to prevent a negative impact from extreme minority status
in a group of circumcised boys.

I hope you now understand that by perpetuating the "matching" myth,
you do a great disservice to the American public and undermine the
credibility of the American Academy of Pediatrics. The public is
understandably confused about circumcision. Your statement only serves to
increase the confusion. It would certainly help if the AAP issued a news
release to correct your mistake.

As you know, the AAP will be reporting on circumcision in the near
future. Many people who care deeply about circumcision are looking for the
AAP to report accurate, factual information about this complex issue.
If, for whatever reason, you cannot resist the temptation to express
your personal beliefs when you talk to the media about circumcision, then
perhaps someone else should take over this responsibility. Reporting to
the public about circumcision is too important to risk this mistake
being made again.

Sincerely,

Ronald Goldman, Ph.D.
Executive Director

(1) Goldman, R., Circumcision: The Hidden Trauma (Boston: Vanguard
Publications, 1997), 103-115.

(2) Wallerstein, E., Circumcision: An American Health Fallacy (New
York: Springer Publishing, 1980), 48.

(3) National Centre for Health Statistics, telephone conversation with
author 1997. Rate is for 1994.

(4) Romberg, R., "Circumcision Feedback" (letter to the editor),
Mensa Bulletin, May 1993.

(5) Huggins, R., telephone conversation with author, February 1996.

(6) Huggins, M., telephone conversation with author, February 1996.


----------



## TryingMyBest (Aug 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Blu Razzberri* 
One more thing: I realize that my responses probably appear to be an attack against you; but I want you to know they're not. Obviously you're a good mom because you're willing to shun the norm to do what's best. I think you're just waiting to hear the right thing.

My post is, however, a direct attack on that nagging "Bree VanDekamp - keeping up with the Jones's and maintaining appearances" voice in the back of your head. Read my blog; visit the links I put in the last post; plow through this information with determination. I guarantee that, come sunrise, you'll have that voice's mouth firmly duct taped on this issue.

Thank you for clarifying...I am probably a touch on the defensive side right now because it's such a raw area to even consider. My son will be two weeks old on Friday, I have cuddled him and known him. I have loved him already and that grows in intensity everyday. I just put him to sleep after his "midnight snack" (we are exclusive breast and attachment) and he snuggled up to me...whereas last week it was more about the necessity of nourishment and less about the comfort of being with Mom as much. Atleast I could see this gesture more. I love him so much. The intensity of those feelings is directly translated into fear and worry. I suppose my feelings are on my sleeves and raw.

I am with you...DAMN the Jones's!!! ON that front..I will be honest and say that the HOTSEAT was put into play because our insurance would not cover the procedure after this week. We checked into later circ prices in the event that we missed the window or if DS decided to be circed later. At 6 months +(which I would not do...if we didn't do it...it would only be done then if medically indicated or at his own consenting choice) the price for our local urologist was $3000 for the Dr. fee then add anesthesiologist and hospital..probably close to $6,000 to get it done. We are a middle class family....and we live modestly....being that this is the 4th boy ( my DH has a son by a previous marriage too). So, the fear of not being able to provide that option to DS was alarming and that prompted the search for support and information.

I was actually hoping to find tons of stories of very well adjusted uncircumcised men running about. Saying...WE LOVE OUR PENISES!!! That seemed like the "right thing" that I was looking for...rather than what you might assume traditionally. Make sense?


----------



## jessjgh1 (Nov 4, 2004)

Quote:

I was actually hoping to find tons of stories of very well adjusted uncircumcised men running about. Saying...WE LOVE OUR PENISES!!! That seemed like the "right thing" that I was looking for...rather than what you might assume traditionally. Make sense?
LOl, well from another standpoint.... why not consider the , uhm, rumor/stereotpes of the 'latin lover' and 'sensual europeans'. Those would be pro-intact cultures. But the men don't run around saying "I love my penis' because it is just all normal to them.

Is that the kind of thing you are looking for??

Jessica


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## ledzepplon (Jun 28, 2004)

I just wanted to add that my dh has a coworker whose son was circ'ed for religious reasons around age 13. While I am opposed to circ, at least this boy was given the option. It was a quick outpatient procedure.

What I'm getting at is if your ds ends up regretting his foreskin, he can easily have a circumcision later. But it should be his choice.


----------



## TryingMyBest (Aug 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ledzepplon* 
I just wanted to add that my dh has a coworker whose son was circ'ed for religious reasons around age 13. While I am opposed to circ, at least this boy was given the option. It was a quick outpatient procedure.

What I'm getting at is if your ds ends up regretting his foreskin, he can easily have a circumcision later. But it should be his choice.

I was under the impression that it would be like a $5000 procedure that an adult would walk away with 10-20 stitches and a tremendous amount of pain> I watched an adult circ be done online in picture sessions and thought that it looked horrendously painful. I also thought for sure that it wouldn't heal up "right"....it looked VERY frankenstein-ish..ya know?


----------



## glongley (Jun 30, 2004)

TryingMyBest:

I appreciate how open and undefensive you are staying in what must seem like a difficult conversation.

Even though I completely acknowledge that your confusion and distress is out of wanting to do the right thing for him, and that you really are "trying your best," I am still scratching my head about some of the thought processes you are describing though.

For instance, it just doesn't make sense to me that you wouldn't circumcise a 6+ month old unless it were medically necessary or it was his personal choice - but you WOULD consider doing that to him as a newborn - i.e. subjecting him to the pain and risks of non-medically necessary surgery, and permanently taking away his personal choice?

And you yourself admit that you are more and more intensely attached to him as time goes on, and that your intention is to practice attachment parenting - i.e. respecting your child's uniqueness and growing the bond between you as the foundation for how you parent. Yet you would consider violating his body, and his choice, his trust in this bond, and suppress the maternal urge to protect your baby from the many obvious harms of circumcision?

You want a guarantee that he will be happy with his natural penis. But on the small chance that he isn't, you'd have an irreversible surgery performed, which can never be undone if he's NOT happy with it cut and diminished.

The whole money thing also seems a little weird too. You assume that there's a high chance that he would even WANT to be circumcised, and since you're afraid you wouldn't be able to afford it later, you think you'd better do it now when you can afford it, even though there's no legitimate physical, emotional, medical, hygienic, social, or ethical rationale for it? Don't let an artificial insurance-driven deadline force you into a decision that you have so many misgivings about.

The issue is not about money, or guarantees: it's about choosing to cut off a normal, healthy, functional part of your baby's sex organ without respecting his right to it or making his own decision about it. Once you get that it's not your choice to make, then you will see that your role is to protect your son's right to wholeness, period. You are still feeling conflicted because you are letting a lot of irrelevant issues affect you. When you get that it's not your choice to make, you will no longer feel conflicted. You will feel: "No way will I let this happen to my precious baby. He is perfect the way he is, and we will raise him to love and respect himself and his body, just as we do."

Gillian


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Keep in mind, an adult penis is bigger, baby penis's are TINY...one little slip and they could lop off the glans...which *has* happened.

Adults can have more complete pain relief, both for the actual procedure and narcotic medication post-op. They can also be given drugs to prevent erections while the penis is healing...no such luck for babies.

Adults can choose the exact 'style' of circumcision they want; their penises are done growing. They can chose high/low, loose/tight, frenulum/no frenulum. You have no idea how much an itty bitty baby penis is going to grow so it's not unusual for them to hack off so much skin men have pain during erections. Sometimes it even pulls up hairy skin from the testicals onto the shaft.

Adult men don't have a wound healing in a diaper, regularly bathed and confined with urine and feces.

Adults have stronger immune systems than newborns.

Adult foreskins are retractible so unlike a newborn, the entire glans won't be a red, open, raw, weepy wound.

...those are just some reasons why adult circ (on the incredibly rare chance he chooses to persue genital reduction surgery as a personal preference) is much better than forcing it on a nonconsenting, healthy infant.

Jen


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## 4chunut1 (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
I just assumed that he might be miserable with a foreskin...because he would be the minority among his peers in our state. I know of women that say they would "run" from an uncirced penis. I am not one of them...and I can say that I probably wouldn't want him dating one of those girls anyway..however, that would again be his call.

As an intact man I want to reassure you that the chance your son will be miserable because he has a foreskin is EXTREMELY small. I consider the fact my mother kept me whole to be one of the best things she ever did for me. I was never teased in the locker room, nor shunned by girls because I had a foreskin. You're making the right decision for your son by foregoing circumcision.


----------



## MommytoB (Jan 18, 2006)

hi there
I was born with a cleft lip & cleft palate and was surrounded by men , brothers and cousins were circumcised boy and I never ever heard of a foreskin or realize that it even existed but boy am I lucky that my son's father had a foreskin by the way he's 40 yr old and still has it.

Anyhoo, I saw nothing wrong with his foreskin but was totally fascinated by it the way it worked

For me it was hard to not worry at the beginning if my son foreskin was a-okay or if that was how it was supposed to look since after all I only 'seen an adult with a foreskin and this was the first time I saw a lil boy with his foreskin.

So I realized after all the past what I learned from when my brother as a kid got a erection he was pointed straight up near his belly -i realized that was a complication from his circumcision he also may not be able to have any kids because his circumcision is so tight that it lifted his balls into his pelvic region and i feel bad for him but am kinda glad because i don't think he would be dad material.

Foreskin is not just skin it's skin filled with blood vessels and blood vessels are part of immune system along with our circulating department, along with veins contains blood cells, then in there is nerves also alot of them , and then lets not forget of the frenulm which gets nearly fully removed after circumcision which they consider that to be a male g-spot.

Anyhoo, as I said I grew up in a circumcised family and thank my lucky stars that I had met someone who is with a foreskin.

I wouldn't have been able to live with myself if i had fell victim to the circumcision stance but i don't think i would of but i might if too many scare tatics and if they talked like about it like a vaccine . I could have said no to my son's vaccine but didn't know alot of it but went ahead with it anyways then now i decided no more vaccines not even flu shots after i learned what was in there.

I got looked down at by my family btw my mom is worried of my son foreskin 'status of getting a girl' then i go then she will be a shallow woman and he would be a shallow woman filter .

Just like I would be shallow if I didn't want to sleep with a guy who is circumcized it is not his fault that he is circumcized but a gal would sleep with any man they love whether he is circ or not circumcised

Alot of people don't really know of how bad circumcision except for doctors that's why most of them don't give the full information about it otherwise they know parents would say no if they seen or know what is actually involved then once people realize how bad circumcision is they wonder why are we allowed to do that to our children ?

In most cases because of circumcision a multi-million dollar industry -it comes from the circumcision operation itself, along with foreskin sales they actually make foreskin grow so they can sell them to cosmetic companies like Mary Kay, L'oreal, and even the famous bath & body works have patrica wexler product that has foreskin in it also, Lets not forget about Olay who is also foreskin purchasers too besides.

Then if that's not enough all the sexual dysnfuction drugs and lube products that are for to help sex is only needed by 'circumcised men' the lube and sexual dysfunction are a million dollar estate making money off the men dried out glans caused by circumcision and just like the viagra companies who are a million dollar estate too profiting off the dysfunctions of a penis that don't work well due to complications from circumcision etc.

In non-circumcising countries a friend of mine told me while she was with her circumcised husband that she had to order lube because in Rome they didn't have it there and had to import it from USA so she told everyone don't forget the lube if ya go there .

I never used lube with my son's father and they tried to sell sexual dysfunction drugs in non-circumcising countries but hardly had any profit at all so they don't even have those in non-circumcising countries.


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## TryingMyBest (Aug 14, 2007)

Hey there Gillian,

I guess I didn't think about it the way you put it at the bottom of your reply...I guess once I accept that it's his decision and not mine then the rest will follow? You see, as parents we are weighed down with tons of large decisions that will directly impact our children, their wellbeing etc. Some of these are more impactful than others..and some are contrversial. Obviously circumcision is more invasion...so please do not think that I am "apples to apples" here. Vaccinations etc....are big decisions where we have to assume a risk to our children on their behalf for what we perceive are "benefits". That is different since there are proven benefits...also proven risks. But, I guess you can see where I myself and other parents get burdened with what we might feel is a responsibility to act with a decision...usually in the thought of "sparing some detriment" to our future children. Make sense? Sometimes I try to explain where parents are coming from...but not necessarily meaning to reflect it upon myself...but this sounds right for me. I feel that I have assumed this responsibility as trying to make a protective decision for him...in what could weigh out improperly in a risk assessment/ratio.

Anyhow, you send forth some good information and I appreciate your posts...you seem to work hard to get your message across in the best possible way for receipt. As for the insurance item...that is what prompted a "decision" to be made as we felt that the clock was "Turned On" if we were going to do the procedure. There was no other reason for mentioning that really except that if there was a procedure to be done at his consent in the future...I would be nervous that I couldn't promise him financial support of that endeavor. Point blank, I read the discussion thread that someone else posted and one other poster had a great idea...if their son decided anytime after the age of 16 that he wanted to be circed...they would pay for the procedure and fully support him. I am assuming after some counselling of course. Maybe he wouldn't even still want this...but if he did. I was scared that if I offered this option to him (which seems reasonable and would lower some resentment if he ended up with it) I might not be able to afford it. Make sense? That is where the monetary discussion came in.


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## Blu Razzberri (Sep 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
....our insurance would not cover the procedure after this week.

You know, it just occurred to me how friggin' ridiculous this is!! Insurance companies in the US often decline to cover life saving surgeries because it costs too much (read: takes away from their bottom line profit); and yet, they still willingly cover un-necessary circumcisions????







: I just don't get it!! Has anybody pointed this out to them?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
I am with you...DAMN the Jones's!!!


Pfft...







the Jones's....it's time we showed THEM how it's done.

Look, you came at a bad time. This site has a few men on here who'll tell you they mourn the loss of their foreskin; and others who'll tell you they're happy they still have theirs. Normally, you can find the site crawling with women (like myself) who never knew how much better sex is with an intact male until they were with one, and learned through reading why this was the case. You can normally find women who's partners are circ'd and are saddened by what they're missing out on. The whole world is full of intact men who think that American's are out of their ever-loving minds for routine circumcision. Unfortunately, given the time, you won't find many online at this hour. Since you're running out of time, I'll do my best single-handedly...just don't shut the computer off on me, this takes a long time to gather!!

Here are some pieces taken from this website (who's writings are based on the obvious fact that only men who've been circumcised as adults truly know the difference a foreskin makes)

Quote:

After the circumcision there was a major change. It was like night and day. I lost most sensation. I would give anything to get the feeling back. I would give my house. [This man's physician persuaded him to be circumcised by warning he could otherwise get penile cancer. When the man complained of the result, the physician replied, "That's normal" and would not help him.]

Maybe this site can help....

Quote:

Just because someone has a personal preference doesn't mean that they will automatically reject anyone who is different and consider them gross. Lots of men have a preference for women with large breasts, but that doesn't mean they'll immediately turn down one with smaller breasts. Likewise, just because a woman has a preference for circumcised penises doesn't mean she was immediately reject a man who has an intact one. Lots of women I've known personally originally preferred circumcised men just because that's what they were used to, but were willing to try the intact penis and were pleasantly surprised.

This site has some interesting thoughts....

Quote:

This vague fear of something happening in the future allowed me to subject my precious newborns to something that was worse.

There are tons of sites and products with foreskin restoration solutions (which, by the way, also look like evil torture); so that should tell you something. Here is one of those sites; and they say things like ...

Quote:

Greg Beirise of Chicago has never quite forgiven doctors for circumcising him 32 years ago, nor his parents for requesting the procedure.

"It always bothered me," said Beirise, a Web page developer. "I just wanted to be whole."
Beirise is one of what many estimate are several thousand men in the United States and other countries who are taking back what doctors cut away at their birth.

This is all I've got for now....am I on the right path?


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## TryingMyBest (Aug 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4chunut1* 
As an intact man I want to reassure you that the chance your son will be miserable because he has a foreskin is EXTREMELY small. I consider the fact my mother kept me whole to be one of the best things she ever did for me. I was never teased in the locker room, nor shunned by girls because I had a foreskin. You're making the right decision for your son by foregoing circumcision.

I am so glad you responded. I was just reading this... http://www.circumcisioninfo.com/con_testimonies.html Do you think that these are real? I was told to read these if I was questioning a decision...and I expected anti-circ...but instead...this. Where do you live? It sounds as if you are a well rounded male, did your mother work with you to see the value of being intact as you grew up?


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
I am so glad you responded. I was just reading this... http://www.circumcisioninfo.com/con_testimonies.html Do you think that these are real? I was told to read these if I was questioning a decision...and I expected anti-circ...but instead...this. Where do you live? It sounds as if you are a well rounded male, did your mother work with you to see the value of being intact as you grew up?

That site is run by a fetishist. A man who gets off talking about circumcision.

There is no downside to leaving your baby intact. Both of your sons ALREADY have problems from their un-needed surgery. Do you want that for this baby too?

-Angela


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## momma-d (Feb 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 

I just assumed that he might be miserable with a foreskin...because he would be the minority among his peers in our state. I know of women that say they would "run" from an uncirced penis. I am not one of them...and I can say that I probably wouldn't want him dating one of those girls anyway..however, that would again be his call.

He'd be dating a woman quite a bit older than himself...i kid!







Seriously, though, more and more people are waking up to the fact that infant male circumcision is an atrocity held over from the Victorian days when doctors decided to cut off the foreskin of males to keep them from masturbating. ugh. Follow your instinct and let him remain whole. He came out perfect...


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## TryingMyBest (Aug 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alegna* 
That site is run by a fetishist. A man who gets off talking about circumcision.

There is no downside to leaving your baby intact. Both of your sons ALREADY have problems from their un-needed surgery. Do you want that for this baby too?

-Angela

Are you [email protected]?!?!?!?!??! I knew that Circlist was like this....!!! I didn't realize that this site was the same way. How do you know? I saw some nasty posts about "experiences" on circlist that made me want to vomit.


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## 4chunut1 (Apr 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
I am so glad you responded. I was just reading this... http://www.circumcisioninfo.com/con_testimonies.html Do you think that these are real? I was told to read these if I was questioning a decision...and I expected anti-circ...but instead...this. Where do you live? It sounds as if you are a well rounded male, did your mother work with you to see the value of being intact as you grew up?

I read some of the testimonials, and am highly suspicious of them. I think most of those are from circumfetishists, or men who had emotional or psychological problems concerning their penis. I would put very little credence in those statements.

I live in the midwest, born at home a few years before circumcisions became the norm, although more than half of my classmates were circumcised. I have brothers several years younger, and they were circumcised, as that was the popular thing to do then. My father was intact, but my mother did not recognize the value of the foreskin, and the younger brothers, who were born in a hospital, were not left intact.







:


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## TryingMyBest (Aug 14, 2007)

Blu Razzberri,

I can understand your frustration and your anger. You are in a position of power here on this site because you can impact people's decisions. I can feel your frustration when you do not see this as an immediate change...I also can tell that this is born of a passion and a deep care. I see this.

I cannot say that everyone else in my position would. You have to be very careful to watch your words and tone even in text if you are going to truly get through to anyone. As I said, I think that you are coming from a passionate place with little patience for people that see differently or not as clearly as you on these issues. I don't blame you for getting irate. I haven't disagreed with you yet, rather I have put points for discussion up and they are being disected and replied to in pieces. I explained that I am very confused on a number of items earlier...and I appreciate the information you are providing..I just think you should be careful to not saying things like "I am more than a little mad at you right now..." I don't think that you should take our conversation here as a personal assault against you...it is not Matter of a fact...I knew what Motheringdotcom was about BEFORE I ever posted my message. I KNEW that I would be in a community of loving mothers that would more than likely help to one by one confront fears in a setting that would help to dissolve them and create a more welcoming feeling to a concept that is foreign to most in the US....all of my family was circed. All of my family is for my son being circed. Putting someone in that situation on an island is precisely the way to drive your point home....but not the way you want.

As I said, I can see where you are coming from and I know your frustration is out of your desire to protect the babies...I don't blame you! But, if I was anyone else....I would be hurt. I would feel like I came for support and in the process I pissed you off by having rational (in my mind) concerns that you quickly dismissed as irrational...and further would have felt that I was in a territory of extremist that were not open to love..only the mission to which they were assigned. Does that make sense? I am not looking for you to "sell" me anything...but I counsel individuals in other areas of mother CONSTANTLY and this is not how I do it.

I know you care. You wouldn't get so upset if you didn't and I hope that these comments are viewed as constructive rather than insulting.


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

Quote:

*Blu Razzberri*I'm posting again because I read the other members posts above, and





















4 years ago yesterday marks the 4th anniversary of the date that I subjected my own son to this.....








I feel for you! My first ds was circumcised 7 yrs ago and I wasn't informed about any of it until afterwards. I'm still angry. *UNBELIEVABLY FRIGHTFULLY ANGRY!!!* I know exactly what your going through







:
Your posts resembles tough love to the OP. I hope she receives it that way. I would. EDITED to add: OP, I didn't read your pp until I posted. She means well. When a mother finds out someone unnecessarily harms their child AND molested (yes molested: the doctor has to sexually simulate your newborn in order to estimate how much skin to take off. No one really knows how much skin that boy will need until the penis is fully grown! Circumciser's aren't interested in that piece of information.) their baby, she feels violated in the worse way.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
I know the irony of what I said. It's a fear. *A VALID fear to worry that your child will not be happy with your decision EITHER WAY.*

First of all I want to say WOW!







I so admire you for saving your ds!!! What did the dr.s and the nurses say when you picked your newborn off the circumstraint? You deserve a medal for that! Now look at your newborn... He is ALL boy. He is beautiful and WHOLE! He is perfect, just as nature made him! This baby was wonderfully and fearfully made by a higher power!!! WOW!!! You can't beat that!!! Now, do what you've done. Continue to hold and protect your baby. Circumcision is an arbitrary reductive *cosmetic* surgery. So, why are doctors soliciting this operation when they KNOW its not necessary? They're making a lot of money off your ds's highly sophisticated organ created to protect the glans from soiled diapers and foreign pathogens. You don't want feces and urine in contact with a bloody wound. The foreskin isn't retractable until after he is toilet trained. Who knew that the foreskin could be so protective??? Its sometimes not retractable until he reaches adulthood. (Average age 10.5 ys) Thats normal. Circumcision has NO benefits. It causes excruciating pain (Babies are hypersensitive because they *lack the myelin sheath* that serves to insulate nerves protecting the body from profound pain and it isn't fully developed until adulthood.), complications such as what your circumcised ds's go through and what my circumcised ds is going through (painful erections and meatal stenosis), not to mention when the foreskin is removed the glans that were once an internal organ is now constantly exposed to the environment and will toughen over time just as bare feet walking around without shoes - the soles will toughen and become less sensitive. You don't want to sign him up for that!

I have two other ds's and they're intact, no problems! I have nightmares that they were circumcised and wake up relieved that they're still intact, thank goodness!

My BIL has an intact ds and his reason for leaving his ds as he was born (foreskin is not a birth defect, I think you understand that already







), was because a veteran WWII told him that he was forced to get circumcised during the war. Sex without a foreskin was black and white TV, while sex with a foreskin was in color TV. For that reason BIL wanted his ds to have color sex!

Now I'm going to respond to the quoted portion of your post. You should not be afraid. Your ds is going to feel very lucky that his penis wasn't cut up. My dh wishes he had a say in the decision that was made for him as a newborn. If he could tell them not to he would have.

Quote:

Surely, you have heard of boys that were intact that felt inferior and wanted to be circed???
That depends. They'll feel inferior if they're being fed negative comments about their normal and 'all nat-u-ral' body. As long as you build for him a healthy self image (Just as any parent should do for their child), your ds will have a healthy self esteem. He will like who he is and love that he has a foreskin. He'll be lucky to have one when most boys don't. Circ rates are falling. That shouldn't matter because your decision isn't going to be based upon what everyone else thinks about your ds. I mean, thats really shallow and highly superficial don't you think? I'm not dogging on you by any means. I'm helping you gain a different perspective. You've buried yourself into this making things fuzzy. Step away just a bit and look at the entire picture... It'll become clear to you once this happens. It may all sound like simple BS to you (I hope it doesn't and HTH) but I'm trying so hard to convenience you not to allow this to happen to your newborn ds. You have good instincts. Really good instincts! Learn to trust them. I have a strong feeling your not going to let this happen because you wouldn't have saved him from the circumstraint. Your smarter than that! Your thinking for yourself and that goes against social conformity. Give that same gift to your ds.

Your going to need some support. Right now, your main concern should be recovering from the birth. Its so simple to say NO! Your his hero! You saved him from unnecessary and needless trauma! CAC will love and nurture you and we will help you keep your ds intact! This is what you want and we're here to help.

Your dh will need to be on board with this too. Show him the Penn&Teller Video and the Senslip video. The Senslip is not to sell him the product (he can buy it if he wants, lol) its to educate him about the intact body. The lady has a sexy British accent. Trust me, he'll be glued!

CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR NEWEST ARRIVAL!!! Enjoy your babymoon. Please keep us updated.


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## Blu Razzberri (Sep 27, 2006)

When I say something, I don't dance around the subject, I just straight-up say what I mean.

You keep bringing up that I'm saying things too harshly, then saying you understand why, and agree with obvious points made by myself and other's...and then revert back to the "well...i don't know." stance you started with. Truth is, I can't help but feel like we're all being had because of this.

(If you're truly feeling this way, maybe you should leave your son intact, let that issue rest, and do some research on PPD. Find someone to talk to about fluxuating emotion; because if that's what you have; when you sort out your hormonal imbalance, you'll thank yourself for not doing what you knew all along that you shouldn't do.)

I've had mother's PM me and personally thank me for pointing out the obvious more harshly than I have here. I've given you answers to your "fears"; I've given you links, quotes and information galore. I just spent all my spare time for _the entire evening_ (when I should have been working on my business site) researching and giving you valid, clear and obvious reasons (confirming what you say you already knew) why you shouldn't take your child to the doctor tomorrow for some routine torture; _and your response is to turn around and cousel me on how to present my thoughts?!?







_

The last three pages of posts from myself and others are ridiculously clear. For crying out loud; it's been pointed out at least twice that your other two sons circumcisions had complications and _that alone should be enough_;







yet you're not finding enough resource in one of my posts alone to say "ok, that's all I need to see, my baby stays intact!" ????

WHAT EXACTLY ARE YOU LOOKING FOR!?!?!

If it's nicities is what you want, you're getting that from several of the other posters. I just can't find it in me to be understanding and nice about this after you say you can't watch the circ video and cried about it for hours, yet you're still in debates over whether or not to make your own flesh and blood go through that!!! When it comes to my posts, maybe you should stop focusing on the "tone in which I am saying things", and start focusing on WHAT I am saying!!! If you have to, go back and read from the bottom up so you see it differently.

As for me, yes, this is a subject that I feel intensely about and if you knew what I really felt like saying, you'd see that I'm actually keeping my cool.







However, I'm growing more angry with every post because you're going back and forth illogically. So before I become a big fat UA violation, I'm outta here. I'm not coming back to this thread. I'm going to pray that your baby isn't strapped to a plastic table a few hours from now.







:







:







:


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## No2Circ (Aug 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Blu Razzberri* 
DON'T DO IT.
You know the consequence and pain of having it done. Trust your initial instinct!!!!










:


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## Blu Razzberri (Sep 27, 2006)

OMG! HOLD ON! I was walking away from the computer, and something hit me. This statement that I made....

Quote:

....you say you can't watch the circ video and cried about it for hours, yet you're still in debates over whether or not to make your own flesh and blood go through that!!!...
...played over again in my head; and something occurred to me. I know you probably don't think so from my posts, but I truly do care about people and I wish the best for everyone. So, I'm not saying this to be mean or to start something but...

_....is it possible that you have the beginning symptoms of Munchausens Syndrome By Proxy?_

That isn't a question for you to answer publicly, but if you think that's a possibility, please seek help immediately!!

I'm still not coming back to this thread; because it truly is making me upset. I don't know you in person and I'm not saying "you're crazy"; but I felt that I needed to mention this just in case! I really do wish you and your family the best.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
Please do pray....I am also. I have just begged for an answer. Stupid society for putting these insane stigmas on us.

For your questions...
*Have you watched the video linked to here what circ is like? I could not watch it. I felt that I needed to though..but as you can tell it's a catch 22 for someone that has circed and is not opting not to.
*
*
*
*

It is very late, and I am very tired, but I just wanted to say that it doesn't have to be a "catch-22." Making a different parenting choice now doesn't make you a bad mama for having made a different choice previously. It just doesn't.

In the words of Maya Angelou, "when you know better, you do better." You did the best you could with the information you had with your other two sons. Now you will (hopefully) do the best you can with the information you have at this time, and you will leave this son intact. Easy, peasy. No catch-22.

If you want help with how to deal with your dh, or what to say to your other sons when they get older, we'll be happy to continue to address that. Take it one step at a time. You already made the decision to leave your son intact (when you rescued him). Now honor that decision by not going back on it.*


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 

I went to my ped the other day for the newborn check and asked them about circs in our area. 95% of whites are circed in his practice...they say. Said the latino community had low rates....like 30% circed...70% not.

Doctors might just lie to you because they have an economic incentive to do so. If you let him circ your son, he'll get PAID $$ for it. The white circ rate may not be nearly that high!!


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
It has to do with accountability for his future feelings. He might not like being intact...as he might not like being circed. I know that a boy can decide later to be circed..but the truth is most don't. That can either be by satisfaction (I HOPE!!!) or fear of the procedure.

If someone really wanted it done they would get it done. Lots and lots of people go through liposuction, boob jobs, nose jobs, etc The reason most intact men don't get circ'd is b/c they are happy.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
I know of women that say they would "run" from an uncirced penis. I am not one of them...and I can say that I probably wouldn't want him dating one of those girls anyway..however, that would again be his call.

There are pleanty of women who grew up in noncirc'ing families who think circ'd ones look really weird. Trust me the first time I saw a circ'd one it totally freaked me out.







:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
I was actually hoping to find tons of stories of very well adjusted uncircumcised men running about. Saying...WE LOVE OUR PENISES!!! That seemed like the "right thing" that I was looking for...rather than what you might assume traditionally. Make sense?

All the intact men I know seem perfectly happy with thier penises, but don't seem to feel a need to defend that happiness. Basically instead of shouting it from the roof tops they are keeping their wives quite giddy still in their 80s.


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## TryingMyBest (Aug 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Blu Razzberri* 
OMG! HOLD ON! I was walking away from the computer, and something hit me. This statement that I made....

...played over again in my head; and something occurred to me. I know you probably don't think so from my posts, but I truly do care about people and I wish the best for everyone. So, I'm not saying this to be mean or to start something but...

_....is it possible that you have the beginning symptoms of Munchausens Syndrome By Proxy?_

That isn't a question for you to answer publicly, but if you think that's a possibility, please seek help immediately!!

I'm still not coming back to this thread; because it truly is making me upset. I don't know you in person and I'm not saying "you're crazy"; but I felt that I needed to mention this just in case! I really do wish you and your family the best.

Blu, I know you are not coming back on this thread but the procedure was scheduled for Friday..not today. Either way, I am not suffering from Munchausen.
I don't think I am going to win after my last post, so I will let it go as well. It was not supposed to turn into a negative exchange. I appreciate your time...and you did provide good information. Regardless, I saw the value in that...even if you are upset that you did.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

I wanted to add one thing. When my cousin was pg she and her bf were having trouble and she was debating if she should break up with him or not. I told her what I am going to tell you. When you are pg or within the first year of a babies life you should never make major life decisions. Why? Because of all the hormones going thru your body. I know that you know what I am talking about here since you have 2 other kids. You are capable of functioning but from day to day your mood swings so much.

I hope that you have gotten the information you need to be ok with leaving your ds intact. That site you linked to is well know here for being a fetish site. There are a few men who post there who have restored just so they can be circed again and they do get off on watching the video of babies being circed









If you are worried you wont be able to pay for it if say at 16 he comes to you and wants it you can always start a account with a dollar a week in it now. By the time he is 16 you will have enough. Tho I bet you real money you will use the funds for his collage instead.

Just talk to him about your decision to leave him intact. I would never tell my ds he can be circed later no more than I would mention to dd that she could get breast implants later on. I dont want even a tiny bit of doubt in his head that he is perfect the way he is. I fully believe that my son and daughter will know the value of the whole human body because I will teach them that. I even have papers already printed out to give to them both but specifically on the foreskin for ds.


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
Thank you for such a sweet reply. Where are you guys at on the east coast? It sounds like your brothers really didn't have an issue. I hate to say it but it seems that white girls are the most "squeamish" about it..they have kind of nasty attitudes about oral sex on uncirced guys in some cases. Again, this probably shouldn't even be crossing my mind...but I just hope that he doesn't get given a social stint because of it. It's so sad that society makes us fear this. Do your brothers ever get involved in anticirc stuff?

I got this far in the thread and had to comment.

Would you really want your son with a woman like that?

There may be some nasty girls out there, but I don't base these decisions on them. They are nothing to me. I will give my son confidence and the ability to see when people are nasty and not the right people for him.

I would be overjoyed that he walk away from a woman who would ridicule him for having a foreskin. That's shallow and rude and disgusting, not the kind of person I would want around my family.

If the ridicule is coming from men:
My husband said he would teach our son to say (if he was made fun of at school) "YOU are making fun of ME for not having a piece of my dick cut off?"


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

And if you need examples of hordes of happy intact men just look at a map. 80% of the world is intact.


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

Dear TryingmyBest,
I'm sorry you have been so stressed out about this. I would like to add a word of encouragement: Once you simply make the decision that you _*will not*_ force circumcision on your son, you feel an overwhelming wave of relief and you never look back. Yes, it is hard to go through that initial process where you are questioning what you always "knew" to be true, and where you're facing going against the grain and challenging previous decisions. It's scary. But it is the right thing to do. It is the moral, ethical, responsible, loving thing to do. And once you choose to protect your baby, you never regret that.

I am a middle-class white southerner living in the Midwest, the region with the highest rate of circumcision in the counrty. I have a 6 year-old son who was circumcised because I didn't know any better, and a 4 year-old who is intact because I had learned by then that it wasn't necessary for his health. Now that I have seen with my own eyes that intact is perfectly normal and natural, and that intact boys enjoy their foreskins, I could never, ever support anyone's decision to force routine circumcision on his or her child.

The culture is changing. When we lived in a university town in a Midwestern city, many, many sons of our educated professional neighbors were intact. I also have friends in small rural towns who have left their boys whole. This is a mainstream movement away from circumcision, not a fluke caused by immigrants.

The only reason any boy would be unhappy with his normal genitals is if he had been _*told*_ that there was something to be ashamed of. Because you already have two circumcised sons, you will probably be the first one to field any questions abuot the difference. This is very important. You will have the opportunity early on to solidify his self-image. You say very simply, "All boys are born like you. People used to think it was a good idea to cut that part off of baby boys, but now we know it's better to leave it alone. It really hurts the baby and we wish we hadn't hurt your brothers, but we truly believed it was what was best for them. People belive some really silly things sometimes, huh?"

Call and cancel that appointment, if you still have it scheduled. Right now. You will feel a milllion times better. Circumcision has absolutely no place in attachment parenting. In order to hand over your child to be circumcised, you have to shut down your connection. It's the only way you could do it. You have already demonstrated that your bond was strong--you were bold enough to rescue your baby from the circumstraint. You listened to your instincts and put your baby's needs first. Keep it up, mama. Your baby is lucky to have you!


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## Telle Bear (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
Blu Razzberri,

I cannot say that everyone else in my position would. You have to be very careful to watch your words and tone even in text if you are going to truly get through to anyone. As I said, I think that you are coming from a passionate place with little patience for people that see differently or not as clearly as you on these issues.

OT...but you are right...I use to post a lot in this forum, but I found that when a person who was new was asking for help, some people were very harsh and abrasive with them...(nothing I wanted to be part of). Anyway, I wanted to say thanks for staying and listening to everyone else, even though some of the posts are leaving you feeling attacked.


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## veganf (Dec 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
I was actually hoping to find tons of stories of very well adjusted uncircumcised men running about. Saying...WE LOVE OUR PENISES!!! That seemed like the "right thing" that I was looking for...rather than what you might assume traditionally. Make sense?

Well, if that's what you're looking for







...the ones I've known, um, intimately were all VERY happy with their intact penises, and so was I!!!







If there was only ONE THING I could change about my husband it would be his circumcision as an infant. Sex with a circ'd penis versus sex with an intact penis to me is like driving a minivan versus a Ferrari. No contest. However, they're still cars, they can go fast and get you where you need to go and they're fun no matter what. But every intact man I've known personally has been just fine with it.


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

OP, I think you know already what the right decision is. You know it's wrong to circumcise but we do lots of things that are "wrong" for reasons that seem right, don't we?

Postpartum is such an interesting time, I think. Those initial hormones that encouraged you to protect your son NO MATTER WHAT THE COST are starting to ebb. You are second thinking about the things you chose for your birth and immediate postpartum. It's normal. But, I stand by the idea that when we let our "monkey" part help up with decisions, often we make the best decisions.

We're mama bears who have been placed in a dress, given a home and told to be good. For a while, that mama bear was active, protecting her son. Don't let that stop now. You can still protect him, and I believe that you will. I know that the person you truly are is the one who pulled her son off that circumstraint.

Try to not worry about what your son will say. Your son will be proud of you, especially if you tell him to what lengths you went to to protect him. It will be hard, for sure, to speak to him about what you allowed to happen to your other sons. That's the thing you'll be apologizing for, trust me. Your intact son is peachy. Your circed sons are the ones who will wonder what you were thinking.









I know how hard that is to face, because I've done it. My cut son is 11. As I watch his body grow, it doesn't get easier thinking about what his prepuce would have been doing for him now.









A couple of months ago, I gave an interview for anticircumcision for our local paper. When I asked my circed son if he minded he said, "No, mama. Especially if it will stop another mama from doing that to her son." I'm crying now as I write this.

Listen to that mama bear who protected her son. She's the smart one.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Just a couple of thoughts for you to consider, coming from a slightly different angle:

As someone practicing attachment parenting, breastfeeding, co-sleeping, not-CIO, gentle discipline I assume, etc. - why are you so worried about whether your son's penis will conform to the current norms of our society?

It certainly isn't the accepted norm to co-sleep -- in fact, the (stupid) AAP now recommends against it.









It certainly isn't the norm to breastfeed, at least for very long, esp. in the South where rates of breastfeeding are pretty low to begin with compared to the nation as a whole and finding moms who are still breastfeeding at 6 months isn't all that easy.

It certainly isn't the norm not to practice sleep training and CIO -- look at all the parenting gurus and shows on TV that tout "we got the baby to sleep through the night at 2 months!"

And it certainly isn't the norm to practice gentle discipline, not to humiliate your child physically or verbally. All it takes for me is a visit to our local big box stores on any weekend to see plenty of parents who feel no compunction whatsoever about hitting their children in public -- and NO ONE says a word because it's OK in our society to smack your children.

You are already going against the accepted mainstream thought of generations in this country to do things like breastfeed, co-sleep, attachment parent, etc.

So why is it so hard to think about going against the mainstream and leaving your son whole? It doesn't take much looking around to realize that the mainstream doesn't have a whole lot to recommend it, which is why more and more parents are saying screw the mainstream, I'm going to breastfeed, have my baby naturally, co-sleep, babywear, practice gentle discipline, etc. because it's better for my baby to be treated this way.

And the same point phrased slightly differently -- at some point your sons are going to come to you and want your help or permission or money to do something really stupid because everyone else is doing it. Or you're going to find them doing something really stupid because everyone else is doing it. Smoke? Jump off the tall rocks in the local quarry into really shallow water? See an extremely violent R-rated movie at age 12? Get a tattoo at age 14? Whatever it is, you're going to pull out the time-honored cliche like all the rest of us will -- "If your friends were all going to jump off a bridge, would you do it too?"

Don't be a lemming and jump off the bridge of circumcision just because "everyone else" has done it or is doing it. It's the same thing. "Just because everyone else is doing it" is never a good enough reason, especially not for something as damaging and harmful as circumcision.


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## calngavinsmom (Feb 19, 2003)

I don't know if there is such a site of intact men professing their love for their foreskins, but here is one that is comprised of men who lothe their circumcisions:
http://www.norm.org

Remember, it is a lot harder to "put it back"(impossible really) than it is to cut it off.

Do your boy a favour, spare him what these men have endured and leave it up to him









Good luck to you!
Tara


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
The last day that my insurance will pay for the procedure is at the end of this week, so we have to make a decision.

...Please help me here....the clock is ticking.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
...the procedure was scheduled for Friday..not today.

So, tomorrow's Friday. This thread has been very active and people have shared a lot of thoughts, feedback, resources, and advice. I'm sure all of us are wondering what you've decided...

Jen


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
Are you [email protected]?!?!?!?!??! I knew that Circlist was like this....!!! I didn't realize that this site was the same way. How do you know? I saw some nasty posts about "experiences" on circlist that made me want to vomit.

More of the info used to be available, but if you check the whois info on it you find a guy that is well known as a fetishist.

-Angela


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
Blu Razzberri,

I can understand your frustration and your anger. You are in a position of power here on this site because you can impact people's decisions. I can feel your frustration when you do not see this as an immediate change...I also can tell that this is born of a passion and a deep care. I see this.

I cannot say that everyone else in my position would. You have to be very careful to watch your words and tone even in text if you are going to truly get through to anyone. As I said, I think that you are coming from a passionate place with little patience for people that see differently or not as clearly as you on these issues. I don't blame you for getting irate. I haven't disagreed with you yet, rather I have put points for discussion up and they are being disected and replied to in pieces. I explained that I am very confused on a number of items earlier...and I appreciate the information you are providing..I just think you should be careful to not saying things like "I am more than a little mad at you right now..." I don't think that you should take our conversation here as a personal assault against you...it is not Matter of a fact...I knew what Motheringdotcom was about BEFORE I ever posted my message. I KNEW that I would be in a community of loving mothers that would more than likely help to one by one confront fears in a setting that would help to dissolve them and create a more welcoming feeling to a concept that is foreign to most in the US....all of my family was circed. All of my family is for my son being circed. Putting someone in that situation on an island is precisely the way to drive your point home....but not the way you want.

As I said, I can see where you are coming from and I know your frustration is out of your desire to protect the babies...I don't blame you! But, if I was anyone else....I would be hurt. I would feel like I came for support and in the process I pissed you off by having rational (in my mind) concerns that you quickly dismissed as irrational...and further would have felt that I was in a territory of extremist that were not open to love..only the mission to which they were assigned. Does that make sense? I am not looking for you to "sell" me anything...but I counsel individuals in other areas of mother CONSTANTLY and this is not how I do it.

I know you care. You wouldn't get so upset if you didn't and I hope that these comments are viewed as constructive rather than insulting.

I understand where you're coming from, I do.

BUT take a step back for a minute. How would you feel if someone were discussing having their baby girl "circumcised" as calmly as you're discussing it.

Or having their baby's ears removed because they didn't like ears on babies.

Wouldn't you be horrified?

That's what circumcision sounds like to people that know better.

-Angela


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

I don't have much time, but I did skim the thread pretty thoroughly.

TryingMyBest,

There are two things I'd like to comment on... you ask for stories from men who love being intact and thank their mothers for making that decision. Unfortunately in this circ-happy society, what you'll mostly get is stories from people who hate being circ'ed and are unhappy with their parents for taking the decision from them.

Like my dh who has massive problems with sex due to his circ. Like all the women who feel sore and pounded on after sex with a circ'ed partner who needs inordinate amounts of stimulation to achieve orgasm. Like all the men attempting to restore some semblance of a foreskin to regain the sensitivity that they've lost. Anybody have the link to that touching blog from the very angry young man?? I lost all my bookmarks in an upgrade recently.

The other thing that I wanted to mention is that there are a number of women who have no idea if their partners are circ'ed or not (yes, you read that right). Intact and cut penises look very similar when erect. Again, there's a good link to some pics that I'm hoping someone will jump in with.

I congratulate you for taking the time to research all of this. Honestly, it didn't take any research for me to know that ripping, crushing or cutting parts off of my child wasn't something I wanted to do, so I've never felt what you're feeling. I'm sorry that it's hard for you to go through this, but I think it's better you than your baby, to tell the truth.

And one last thing that's bothering me a little... what's up with everybody talking about "white" percentages? Confused....


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

Today is Friday.

DON'T GO TO THAT APPOINTMENT!!!!!!!!!!!


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## glongley (Jun 30, 2004)

Re: paying for circumcision if he wants it later.

When my then-15-yr-old son told me he wanted to get circumcised a number of years ago (he's 21 now and still intact), one of the things I told him was that when he was 18 and able to sign for himself he could get it done, and furthermore that he could pay for it himself. I don't feel that cosmetic surgery is one of the things I am obligated as a parent to provide him.

Don't even think about "how we're going to pay for him to get circumcised later"! This will probably never come up, and you don't owe it to him. You're just setting yourself up for not fully accepting his intact penis as a normal, healthy, wonderful thing - always looking over your shoulder thinking a decision to leave his body as made by God/Nature is going to come back to haunt you. This is craziness. Just accept him and value him whole the way he came.

Gillian


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *l_olive* 
IAnd one last thing that's bothering me a little... what's up with everybody talking about "white" percentages? Confused....


The OP mentioned it in her first post, and I responded to her concern because it was apparently important to her. One thing you have to understand is that circumcision has often been made into a class issue. Several decades ago, the foreskin carried the stigma of being a "hick" (i.e. homebirthed). When states started withdrawing public funding for it, there was the worry that the foreskin would be a mark of being uninsured and poor. Now, circ advocates are blaming the dramatic drop in circ rates on Hispanic and Asian immigrants (which is frankly ridiculous, given the statistics. We'd have to have a lot more Hispanic and Asian immigrants than we do to account for the drop). Those who want to keep circumcision popular are trying desperately to convince people that "mainstream"/middle-class/white parents are still circ'ing just as often as ever, and that only people of color are rejecting it. But that's not true. Yes, it's odd that people might take such a thing into consideration, but at this point, the immediate concern is saving this baby from forced genital cutting.


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

Also, OP: Whereas, in my progressive, urban, university neighborhood, intact was the norm (even in the Midwest!), I did have family members and friends from more conservative and/or rural backgrounds who weren't so sure about not circ'ing. They never said anything negative to me, just wanted to know why. If you gently educate people without blaming them for not knowing, you'd be surprised how accepting they can be.

When my first baby (circ'ed) was a baby, I kept another baby whose parents were both doctors and who was intact. When I saw that their baby was intact, I felt sad that I had not known better and I wished I had protected my own baby. I can see how some parents might try to justify their decision by talking up the "benefits" or the "social acceptability" of circ, because it really does make you feel less as a mother to see someone else who had the intelligence and courage to say no to circumcision, when you yourself essentially let your own child be sexually abused. It hurts. You wish you weren't the one whose ignorance was forever carved into the flesh of her child. If everyone else is doing it, you don't have to look like the bad one. So, be prepared for the possibility of someone denigrating your choie, but know that they probably are feeling insecure on the inside.


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## TryingMyBest (Aug 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Pickle* 
The OP mentioned it in her first post, and I responded to her concern because it was apparently important to her. One thing you have to understand is that circumcision has often been made into a class issue. Several decades ago, the foreskin carried the stigma of being a "hick" (i.e. homebirthed). When states started withdrawing public funding for it, there was the worry that the foreskin would be a mark of being uninsured and poor. Now, circ advocates are blaming the dramatic drop in circ rates on Hispanic and Asian immigrants (which is frankly ridiculous, given the statistics. We'd have to have a lot more Hispanic and Asian immigrants than we do to account for the drop). Those who want to keep circumcision popular are trying desperately to convince people that "mainstream"/middle-class/white parents are still circ'ing just as often as ever, and that only people of color are rejecting it. But that's not true. Yes, it's odd that people might take such a thing into consideration, but at this point, the immediate concern is saving this baby from forced genital cutting.

You are EXACTLY right. This is precisely why I was mentioning white rates. I was trying to get an assessment of his peers...as we are while middle classers. I was also concerned that with the possibility of a negative stigma that the "class" thing would come up...which is why I mentioned it. I have no issue with any other race...just wanted a subjective piece of information. Thank you for posting this response.


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## TryingMyBest (Aug 14, 2007)

Glongley,

You make a good point. I guess offering to cover it etc was my way of "making it up to him" if he totally resented my decision.

On a side note, do you mind PMing me or responding with some of the reasons why your son did want to be circed? It's odd most families with intact son's...half are happy about it...and half go through a phase they are ready to be circed. Probably normal.


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

TryingMyBest,

I posted on the first page but you might have overlooked it.

I'm US-born and I'm intact. I never had any medical issues because of it, and socially it was a non-issue. Out of my four close friends in high school, two (including myself) were intact and two weren't. It was *never* an issue. We didn't have penis comparing contests. And we all had no difficulties attracting the opposite sex (well, one of my circ'd friends turned out to be gay but still....







)

Do your son a favor, and leave him whole. If at 18 years old he wants to have it done, he can do it.


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

PLEASE PLEASE DON'T DO THIS TO YOUR DS!!!!!!!!!!!

Can't you see, THIS DEADLINE they've given you IS A SCAM!!!!

The Doctor won't get paid if this isn't done in the newborn period. DON'T LET THEM RIP YOU OFF by letting them literally RIPP OFF YOUR DS'S GENITALS!!! THEY WILL SKIN HIM ALIVE!!! and for what?!! TO EARN A FEW BUCKS!! DON'T SELL YOUR DS LIKE THAT!!!

Please, what ever you do DON'T GO TO THAT APPOINTMENT! You know better now. YOUR SMARTER THAN THAT!!! If you go along with this even after you know not to, you will regret it for the rest of your entire life!!! From experience, the REGRET FACTOR SUCKS!!! You'll never regret leaving him as nature intended. YOU WILL _*NEVER*_ REGRET LEAVING HIM INTACT!

_*PLEASSSSSSSSSSSSSE LEAVE YOUR DS INTACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!*_


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
You are EXACTLY right. This is precisely why I was mentioning white rates. I was trying to get an assessment of his peers...as we are while middle classers. I was also concerned that with the possibility of a negative stigma that the "class" thing would come up...which is why I mentioned it. I have no issue with any other race...just wanted a subjective piece of information. Thank you for posting this response.

I want to clarify something before writing my thoughts. Do feel your sons peers will only be "middle class whites"? Do you feel hispanics will not be amongst his peers?

(note: middle class white girl married to middle class hispanic man here







 )


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
You are EXACTLY right. This is precisely why I was mentioning white rates. I was trying to get an assessment of his peers...as we are while middle classers. I was also concerned that with the possibility of a negative stigma that the "class" thing would come up...which is why I mentioned it. I have no issue with any other race...just wanted a subjective piece of information. Thank you for posting this response.

You're welcome, Trying.
Just a funny aside: Most white middle class people today are only a few generations removed from a poor, rural background. In my family, it was my _grandparents_ who escaped a hand-to-mouth existence and made it to the suburbs; however, in my husband's family, it was his _parents_. Like, his mom was born on a dirt floor and used to have to clean squirrels and pluck chickens as a child. As a result, my husband was raised to be a lot more concerned with appearing "respectable" than I was. He'll say things to me like, "Don't let the kids run around barefoot! It's *******!" To which I always respond, "What's _really_ ******* is worrying about looking *******." That always drives him crazy--it really hits a nerve. 'Cause it's true.


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## TryingMyBest (Aug 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carriebft* 
I want to clarify something before writing my thoughts. Do feel your sons peers will only be "middle class whites"? Do you feel hispanics will not be amongst his peers?

(note: middle class white girl married to middle class hispanic man here







)

I am sure that diversity will be a factor. We live in a town where it is majority white. The school my son goes to is lik 89% white I believe. There is a small hispanic and a small asian community. Some black individuals..but as you can tell they are all in that 11%. This is one other reason that I asked. Also, my sister is married to a puerto rican man and my nephew and two nieces are half white and half spanish. Her husband, his father...his two brothers, and their son are all circed. It's just a frickin circ happen neighborhood. When I talked to my sisters husband about this...he was appauled that I would NOT circ DS.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fruitful womb* 
Today is Friday.

Today is THURSDAY.

<wipes forehead> Don't scare me like that.









jen


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Of course, this whole peer discussion is assuming the naked peers penis parade will be coming by frequently.










Just raise a confident boy and there will be no problems even if all these myths about naked peer pressure magically come true.


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
I am sure that diversity will be a factor. We live in a town where it is majority white. The school my son goes to is lik 89% white I believe. There is a small hispanic and a small asian community. Some black individuals..but as you can tell they are all in that 11%. This is one other reason that I asked. Also, my sister is married to a puerto rican man and my nephew and two nieces are half white and half spanish. Her husband, his father...his two brothers, and their son are all circed. It's just a frickin circ happen neighborhood. When I talked to my sisters husband about this...he was appauled that I would NOT circ DS.

The term "white" and "hispanic" are very controversal in the Hispanic community. Many hispanics will click off 'white' (because they are, indeed, European or with european ancestry- many of them at least). My husband can talk for hours about this. So you may think your school is only 10% 'minority', but it's usually not that cut and dry with Latinos/Hispanic/etc.

SO lets say that your circumcision rate is 90%. That means, of 10 people your son knows, 1 will be intact. At worst, he will not be alone. However ALL rates are falling, which means in 15 years when this becomes an issue the numbers will be even smaller and the culture of cutting will have died out a lot more.

But what does it matter?

confidence, confidence, confidence. "My genitals are my own."


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

In addition, ask yourself these questions:

Who is to say your son:

-will not move in the future?
-will not go to college elsewhere?
-will not marry an immigrant?
-will not marry a woman who is Asian, Hispanic, etc?
-will be straight? (note: circumcision is a hot button issue here)

And what about sexual function? The foreskin asks as a lubricant/keeps lubrication inside during sex- that is just one of its functions.

Cutting it off assumes that your son will not need this in his relationships (in addition to the other functions).

Skinning a boy's penis assumes so many things and takes on so many risks.

If he wants it done later, he might say "I WISH YOU DID THIS WHEN I WAS A BABY!" But, ya know what? Only someone who didnt understand would say that. I could easily say "mom, I wish you had gotten me this tatoo when I was younger so I couldnt remember the pain". Ridiculous? right?

As a man, there would be no danger of cutting off too much, no danger of death by infection, availablilty of pain control (remember, studies that say adults have more complications include 'pain' in those complications- yet they don't include it for babies-- _because babies cannot voice it_.)

Circumcising for "what ifs" is just wrong.


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## MiamiMami (Feb 1, 2005)

His peer group may be very different in 15 yrs. More and more educated parent's are making the decision to leave their sons intact, just like more women are breastfeeding.

And if you are looking that far into the future, how do you know he won't move to Europe/Asia or somewhere else after college?

Mama, please respect your son's body. Do not make a decision for him that can't be undone.


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## glongley (Jun 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
Glongley,
On a side note, do you mind PMing me or responding with some of the reasons why your son did want to be circed? It's odd most families with intact son's...half are happy about it...and half go through a phase they are ready to be circed. Probably normal.

I really doubt that half of intact boys go through a phase of wanting to get circed, certainly not in countries where it is the norm to leave genitals the way they come. Maybe a little more likely in the US, where there are certain irrational social pressures that may come up because we have the cultural habit of cutting surgically altering genitals. I think the biggest factor are the kinds of messages and education a boy gets about his body from the people who matter most, his parents.

As far as my son's reasons for wanting to get circed, even though I asked him a number of times, he was always kind of vague about it. I have a feeling it was some kind of adolescent body image type angst - just like all kids go through when their bodies change and they start to get interested in girls but they still don't really know who they are yet. He gave a few flimsy excuses like, "Well, sometimes it smells [I reviewed hygiene info, and explained that all genitals have an odor]" and "Sometimes it kind of sticks to the head of the penis [Heck, mine stick together sometimes too!]" and then "Well, it doesn't really seem to have much purpose [Needless to say, I throughly corrected this misconception!]". Once I was done explaining Circ and the Foreskin 101 to him, he had a completely different take on it - and it just was no longer an issue. All it took was education.

The point is, kids go through all kinds of growing up stress and immature thinking, not just about body parts or genitals. It's the parents' job to teach and support them in appreciating their marvelous bodies, and their uniqueness, and to help them have self-esteem no matter what. No big deal. All part of growing up, all part of parenting. No need for preemptive surgery.

By the way there is a great book for pre-pubertal boys that has some very positive messages about not being circumcised. It is "What's Happening to My Body? Book for Boys" 3rd Ed I believe. By Lynda Madaras. Very helpful to intact boys and their parents.

As I noted before, my son is still intact 6 years later, and in a long-term relationship with a wonderful young woman. He is happy to be intact, and it is not an issue.

You can do this!!

Gillian


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
Glongley,

You make a good point. I guess offering to cover it etc was my way of "making it up to him" if he totally resented my decision.

On a side note, do you mind PMing me or responding with some of the reasons why your son did want to be circed? It's odd most families with intact son's...half are happy about it...and half go through a phase they are ready to be circed. Probably normal.

Where are you getting this information that 50% of the intact boys in the world wish, at some point, to be circ'ed?


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## MommytoB (Jan 18, 2006)

Trying,

I'm grateful that my son father has a foreskin because I didn't even know it even existed until i learned of my son's father foresk so in my whole life I only seen 2 foreskins -my son and my son's father.

When I was in a family of circ family on my mom & dad side I would be watching circ episodes on t.v- and it would make me feel weirded out by that.

But glad I knew I didn't have to circ and saw that all the supposed facts were lies because M-he never smelled, Never had an infection and is too afraid of seeing a doctor as if some doctor is gonna chop off his goods.

I know I'm different from others I grew up with cleft lip and cleft palate . I'm more annoyed with my mom still trying to get me to conform with looking like the other girls- wearing the same style and I go mom this is the style I'm comfortable in and she goes well if ya want to go around looking like a sore thumb in a crowd.

I go I already been there mom when you actually tried to 'create me like a boy give me a boy hairdo, wearing flannel and spotted along with plaid outfits that I got considered to be a boy and called one.

I actually wished to be a boy before I got into highschool because I had felt my mom would love me more if I was one- M - had the opposite of me his mom 'dressed him in girl clothes - he hasn't talked to her for at least 20 yrs.

I nearly almost stop talking to my mom if she keeps this issue up I might as well stop taking her of her blame -maybe even move away because I want to be somewhere else.


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## foreskin friendly (Jul 16, 2007)

As most pp's have said, following your gut reaction is commendable. I am sure it was hard. I am ridiculed on a daily basis for my position on the topic of circumcision, but I still sleep easy at night.
Unfortunately, in our society, we (especially women) are also conditioned to ignore our intuition which was given to us for a reason.... (a good book on this topic is "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin De Becker").
Throughout the rest of your life, if you continue to follow your intuition, you will likely live a peaceful life.

As far as knowing any intact males with problems.. I know of only one...
He was 28 years old when he had his circ done, one of my good friends, and it is important to note that he was homosexual. It was the influence of his partner and other (mostly) homosexual friends that he was convinced being circ'd would make him happier. His "problem" was mental and emotional, (as you have stated you are concerned about) and he ended up doing it solely for aesthetic reasons, but certainly not medical reasons.
He was in pain for a long time (but as pp's have said...was afforded pain management by way of anesthesia during the process and pain medication for post-operative pain). After the operation he almost immediately started confiding in me and 1 other mutual friend that he regretted the decision he made. Time passed and he got used to his new member, but anytime the topic of sex came to surface (which trust me, in this crowd, was talked about ALL THE TIME







), he would always make comments about how it used to be so much better. I would think it is a safe assumption to say he probably still regrets it to this day.
The only other problem I can say I've heard from an intact man about "penis issues" in general, specifically regarding the issue of looking different, is that my brother said he and my younger brother used to have private conversations about how they both thought there was something wrong with them when they saw our father. Now if I explain that my brothers and my father are all intact males, you may wonder what I am talking about....
Well, my brother said he used to see my Dad in the nude and wonder why he and my younger brother didn't have HAIR in their groin area!!!
My brothers are the only intact males within their circles of friends, and they had always seen circ'd penises growing up. My brother said he did notice a difference, but it never bothered him that his looked different than a circ'd penis. Strangely enough it was the fact that being pre-pubescent and comparing to an adult males "hairy" parts is what freaked him out!

It is all a matter of educating your son on anatomy.

The idea of keeping your son intact may be causing you distress now, but I promise you... once the last day passes that your insurance will no longer pay for it, and you decide not to circ him, you will feel a wave of relief that this questioning is over. You will feel strong and proud that you were able to save one of your sons (and you will be much less burdened by lengthy and painful diaper changes...etc)

I have a feeling I know you will do the right thing.
Your husband will come to understand and possibly even thank you for it down the road. Your son most assuredly will too!


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:

While I now know all of the effects of circing...I am concerned on the last leg about how my boy will grow up being the minority. Can you guys tell me how your boys were affected by being different? Did they want to be circed later?
I have not read the rest of the thread, just wanted to throw my experience in here.

Where we live intact boys are not among the minority. However, it would not factor in my decision if they were, because it's wrong regardless. It's that "if everyone else were to jump off a bridge, would you too?" sort of thing. Well, let's assume that I want to jump off that bridge just because everyone else is. Statistically, due to increased scientific understanding of the human body and education, the trend is reversing rapidly and it won't be long before non-religious circ is in the distinct minority. This future minority of circ'd men are going to be pissed that a healthy, functioning part of their body was removed without their consent.

My boys do know boys who aren't intact. At one time they wondered why they were different, I explained it, and they were horrified that anyone would do that to someone, and very relieved it wasn't done to them. I expect their appreciation to only grow as they get older and begin to understand the sexual value of the foreskin.


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## tuansprincess (Oct 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
I was actually hoping to find tons of stories of very well adjusted uncircumcised men running about. Saying...WE LOVE OUR PENISES!!! That seemed like the "right thing" that I was looking for...rather than what you might assume traditionally. Make sense?

I will ask my dh if he feels comfortable sharing his story of loving his foreskin. I grew up in a _very_ conservative home. I can honestly say that I never saw an actual adult penis before I got married!







: I know - shocking!







So I had no idea that dh was intact vs. circ'd and when I found out about circ I was shocked! And hopefully this isn't tmi, but after learning more about foreskin function I began to really notice and appreciate those benefits.

Oh - and the men on this site seem to be very happy with their foreskins.









On a final note: Just don't do it!!

Peace,
Maria


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## TryingMyBest (Aug 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *l_olive* 
Where are you getting this information that 50% of the intact boys in the world wish, at some point, to be circ'ed?

I actually didn't get that from anywhere. I was kind of saying that from my experience in talking with parents that have more than one intact son. So far, they have all said..one was thankful..the other had some issues.

Certainly, it's just what I have heard and not a large % of people to draw from, just an observation.


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## Tinijocaro (Jan 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
I am afraid that he will just want to be like everyone else but be too old to want to do the surgery because it IS such an undertaking for an older person.


Your son WILL at some point want to be like everyone else, but not in the way you think he will. I have two intact sons (8 and 12). My 12 year old is all about the hair- as soon as I agreed to let him grow his hair a bit shaggier, he was on top of the world. He knows hair length is something we have control over.

He now likes to wear skater clothes, even though I hate those skinny jeans. He just got his first pair and again, is thrilled. He knows that clothing is something we have control over. He looks just like the kids that he wants to and is happy.

When my boys were little, they didn't care if they looked like daddy- they wanted to BE like daddy. That's why we bought them the little tool sets, the mini golf club sets.....they'd look at me and say "Hi, I'm Daddy" The best part is they believed it.

Kids are very smart- most people, children especially, know that certain things are unchangeable- without us even telling them. Never once did my boys ever ask to have a penis that matched their daddy's circumcised one. Not a whole lot of modesty going on at our house when they were little, so they had ample opportunity to compare. They never asked to change parts of their body that we typically have no control over.

Even my two intact sons don't look at all alike down there. One has a very short foreskin, the other's hangs over by 1/2 inch. Never a comment.

Trust your instinct, trust that your boy will live normally in his normal body. He won't give it a bit of thought, just like you don't give your normal body a bit of thought. He's going to be fine, certainly not in the minority.


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

Okay this sucks because I wrote a good reply and my computer crashed! I'm going to have to do it all over again. But thats okay b/c your ds is worth it! And so are you!!! My goodness you must be a basket case right now! I know what those post partum hormones are like! To have to deal with this too, has got to be NERVE WRACKING! Its one thing when a mother already decides to leave their ds intact and is very very happy with that decision BUT its another thing when she pulls her ds off the circumstraint and saves her own flesh and blood from needless torcher and is actually considering subjecting him to a Doctor's (WHO IS ALREADY VIOLATING HIS OWN CODE OF ETHICS btw!) knife!

Would you allow someone to sexually abuse your children? Well, if you do this, thats exactly what they're going to do!!! Doctors have to sexually simulate an erection on the newborn in order to guess how much skin to cut off! Just so you know, no one will know how much skin that child is going to need until penis stops growing. Even then you don't to cut it off because nature made him the exact amount of skin he is going to need! If you won't allow someone to sexually abuse your child then don't let the doctor this to him! Its really simple to say, "No, I will not allow my precious ds, not to mention NEWBORN to be abused!" Why has this been so hard for you? Are you really going to sacrifice him in the name of cultural conformity? Who gave you those circ fetish links anyways?

Now, rip off your finger nail. Thats right. Go on. Do it! Rip that finger nail off your finger! If I could give you a drug that would diminish the mylin sheeth that serve to insulate your nerves so they're no loner protected from profound pain I'd do it prior to you actually ripping off your finger nail. This is what your newborn will feel. Just after his penis feels pleasure from a total stranger of course. You may say to your self, "Oh he'll never remember". Thats where your wrong. There is a proven study on
_Limbic Imprinting_!

Quote:

The limbic imprinting happens in the limbic system of the brain, which is the part of the brain responsible for our emotions and feelings. That's where Love lives, or the absence of it.

Quote:

Its the same mechanism that makes goslings follow any moving object they see when they hatch out of the egg and expect to see their mother. The first moving object they see imprints in the limbic system of their brains as the image they should be following, even if it's not their mother.
When the baby is strapped down screaming bloody murder in protest to the Doctor's knife and no one rescues him, this child learns that he his helpless. No matter what he says and how he says it, he is helpless. Makes you wonder why so many men are not confident in making a decision. Hmmmm. Or why some of the men on cirlist claim to restore their foreskin just so they can see a doctor cut it off again. That information that was stored on the day they were circumcised got mixed up in with the notion that its somehow "love". The same way goslins will follow a fox during the limbic imprinting. Come on, you've gotta admit, restoring foreskin just so they can go through another circumcision????!!!! Its WRONG, and its SICK, sick sick sick!!!

You need to get yourself out of this war and follow your initial instincts which is to protect your baby from needless harmful surgery!

Oh and, its Thursday. WHEW!!! I really got myself worked up there. Thanks for pointing that out*.pdx.mothernurture*


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

I have not had time to read all the posts.

All I can say is PLEASE DO NOT CIRCUMCISE YOUR SON.

At least give him the choice. If he really hates being intact (highly unlikely) then he can deal with it when he is an adult.

If you circumcise him, you have taken away his right to a complete body. Once a foreskin is gone - IT IS GONE. There are literaly thousands of men in the U.S. who are mad as hell that someone chose to deprive them of the most sensitive part of their body, and compromise their sex life for ever.


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## Fi. (May 3, 2005)

Trying: EVERYONE goes through a period of wanting something to be different. I had large breasts as a teenager (Ds at 14, DDs by 16) and wanted a reduction because I felt like I stood out, like everyone was staring at them. But no one ever give me **** because of it and people weren't really staring, and eventually I got over it. And breasts are a hell of a lot more noticable than a foreskin. They're on display 24/7. But I'll tell you this - I never once thought "MAN I WISH MY MOM HAD REMOVED MY BREASTS AT BIRTH" and I never once expected her to pay for a cosmetic surgery because I didn't like something about myself (my breast reduction wouldn't have been medically necessary).

As a side note to that story, I was encouraged to wait until after I was done growing/birthing so that I could nurse without problems and what do you know. Now I'm a C cup and extremely happy I came to accept my body instead of cutting parts off because I didn't like the way it looked.


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## MommytoB (Jan 18, 2006)

I have big boobs also and developed earlier like age 8 always thought my boobs were to big for my body and that didn't help by the fact of my fam aily always talkin about them - giggling at them when they jiggled, i hid them , didn't like to wear tight shirts, even strrangers had comments on them going such big boobs for such a lil girl. I even got abused by a guy that involved the boob and even along with a girl too who abused me there too in a foster home -yes my mom sent me to a foster home so she could get a break from me because to her i was the 'bad seed'.

Well, even as an adult I thought of breast reduction but then after i had my son I actually feel that my boobs are comfortable enough because they make someone satisfied and happy so if i did reduction beforehand it could have affected my relationship with my son .

What I wanted most as a young teen was a period everyone I knew had periods and i would be wanting one so badly because i was so jealous of everyone having a period -now I wish i didn't have one. I didn't have a period during my 9 months with my son then a whole 26 months which would mean it would have been 3 yrs w/o a period oh that was wonderful .


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## Mommiska (Jan 3, 2002)

Trying - I just wanted to comment from a different perspective (and kudos to you again for listening, learning and protecting your son!).

I'm an American, living in Scotland. I'm lucky - my dh is British and intact (I've talked with my American friends about what sex is like for them with their circed dhs, as well as their need for artificial lube, etc - and I'm very glad my experience is very, very different).

Here in the UK, no one wants to be circed. It just wouldn't occur to your average guy over here. Which makes sense if you think about it - how many people (in the absence of societal messages/peer pressure) really want to cut off ANY part of their body - let alone the most sensitive part of their genitals?

As others have said - if you educate your son about circumcision, the functions of the foreskin, etc, he will have no problems with being intact - he will be grateful, I promise you.

I realise this might sound difficult, given that you have 2 circumcised sons. You can be sensitive when the time comes, so that you don't hurt the self-image of your circumcised sons, while also being honest about the damage caused by circ.







There are other mamas here in the same situation - and Marilyn Milos herself has 3 circed sons.

I would just encourage yourself to ask the most basic question: do I have the right, in the absence of medical necessity, to cut off a healthy, functioning part of someone else's body, without their consent? That's really what it comes down to - do parents have this right? To perform cosmetic surgery on their children?

Thanks for coming to this forum and posting your questions, thoughts, and concerns. You obviously love your son very much.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

TryingMyBest,

When our children are young and we're controlling and monitoring what they read, watch, and listen to to ensure it's age appropriate, it's hard to imagine a day when they will have access to the same information you and I do, right from our homes, at our fingertips. The truth is, our children are growing and developing and they will question and explore and think for themselves.

Each and every one of your sons will have library access. Each and every one of your sons will use the internet some day. They're going to see see CNN and medical journals and messageboards and porn. With as controversial as circumcision is and continues to be, they're going to learn what it is. All they need to do is type in, "circumcision" or "foreskin functions" into google and *BAM: THE TRUTH.*

Circumcising your baby so all your sons match will not prevent them from learning about the issue later in life. And really, you should HOPE that they learn about the issue, so they can to be part of the solution and protect your grandsons from this barbaric, outdated practice. You can use your lack of knowledge when your first two sons were born and that, *"When you know better, you do better."* as a teaching tool, a lesson in how sometimes doing the right thing is hard but you had the courage to change your mind and change the way you parent for the benefit or your son...who will one day be an adult, likely very thankful, man. Following the crowd isn't always safe, sane, or wise.

"Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results."
-Einstein

Making better choices and making this world a safer place for children starts with us, and it starts with simple things. Your body did a magnificant job of growing your little one, and he's absolutely perfect; why mar that? Why wound him? Why do something to his helpless little flawless body that's going to leave a *SCAR*?

Your son will even be able to aquire his own medical records; he may someday learn that you initially declined circumcision but then had it done later. Will your reasoning regarding insurance coverage and $$$ be enough? Will you withold the fact that you *KNEW* his foreskin was valuable, that it had functions, that it contained 3-4 feet of blood vessels, 240 feet of nerves, and tens of thousands of specialized nerve endings?

*Will you ever be able to look him in the eyes and say, "I let them cut off half or the skin on your tiny little penis because I was too afraid to explain to your brothers that I made a mistake, that I'm not perfect, that I'm HUMAN."? Can you look into his trusting little eyes now and say that? Imagine adult eyes staring back at you...he won't be a baby forever.*

Here's something else your son(s) may read:

http://www.norm.org/lost.html

He may also learn this study was published just a few months before his birth:

Quote:

The glans of the circumcised penis is less sensitive to fine touch than the glans of the uncircumcised penis. The transitional region from the external to the internal prepuce is the most sensitive region of the uncircumcised penis and more sensitive than the most sensitive region of the circumcised penis. Circumcision ablates the most sensitive parts of the penis.

Fine-touch pressure thresholds in the adult penis
Morris L. Sorrells ,
James L. Snyder ,
Mark D. Reiss ,
Christopher Eden* ,
Marilyn F. Milos† ,
Norma Wilcox and
Robert S. Van Howe‡
Retired, *HIV/AIDS researcher, San Francisco, CA, †National Organization of Circumcision Information Resource Centers, ‡Department of Paediatrics and Human Development, Michigan State University College of Human Medicine, MI, USA

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...X.2006.06685.x
*My appeal to you: DO THE RIGHT THING.*

You know in your heart that circumcising him is the wrong decision. You are informed. *You cannot claim ignorance in earnest ever again.* Err on the side of caution, the side of respect, the side of compassion. Once the foreskin's gone, it's gone forever.

If you're really that concerned he may desire it later in life, start sticking some money in a jar for him now. At $5/week, by age 18 he'll have nearly $5,000---enough for a fancy adult circumcision or a down-payment on a car. However, the chance of him actually desiring to have part of his penis cut off and persuing an elective adult circumcision at 18 is miniscule. Most men have pretty strong feelings about keeping knives and scalpels as far as possible from their family jewels.

*HIS BODY, HIS CHOICE.*

If you make the appointment, put him in his carseat, get behind the wheel, drive to the clinic, walk into the building, check-in, wait for his turn, take him back, let them examine, undress, and undiaper him, resrain him on the board, swab his genitals with aneseptic, and those gloved hands decend on him with needle, probes, hemostats, and clamps---you are as culpable for what's being done to him as the one performing the procedure.

*He will never be the same.*

If you let them cut him, you'll regret it not only while you're doing wound care for the next 7-10 days and changing the bloody gauze on his raw, wounded, previously perfect penis, but for the rest of your life.

*You will never be the same.*

You know the phrase, "Two wrongs don't make a right?"

*Three wrongs don't make a right, either.*

Circumcision isn't just unnecessary, it's irreversibly damaging. What you're actually contemplating here is handing your child over to be strapped down and harmed because, 'Now, for a limited time only and only $19.95 (or whatever your insurance co-pay is)..." they'll do it for free. You're considering letting someone take a scalpel to your healthy, normal, thriving son because it's free.

You're volunteering him for surgery---surgery that includes a 71% risk of penile adhesions (a complication one of your sons already suffered from), a 10% risk of meatal stenosis, a 1% chance of needing a recircumcision/revision...as well as the risk of severe infection (<---click) and death.

If you have any doubts, if you feel at all conflicted, *DON'T DO IT.* You're just setting yourself up for horrendous guilt and heartache. Once it's done, there's no going back, no turning back time, no wishing you had it to do all over again.

Quote:

"I don't know if I continue, even today, always liking myself. But what I learned to do many years ago was to forgive myself. It is very important for every human being to forgive herself or himself because if you live, you will make mistakes- it is inevitable. _But once you do and you see the mistake, then you forgive yourself and say, 'well, if I'd known better I'd have done better,' that's all. So you say to people who you think you may have injured, 'I'm sorry,' and then you say to yourself, 'I'm sorry.'_ If we all hold on to the mistake, we can't see our own glory in the mirror because we have the mistake between our faces and the mirror; we can't see what we're capable of being. You can ask forgiveness of others, but in the end the real forgiveness is in one's own self. I think that young men and women are so caught by the way they see themselves. Now mind you. When a larger society sees them as unattractive, as threats, as too black or too white or too poor or too fat or too thin or too sexual or too asexual, that's rough. But you can overcome that. The real difficulty is to overcome how you think about yourself. If we don't have that we never grow, we never learn, and sure as hell we should never teach."

*-Maya Angelou*
Jen


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## veganf (Dec 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
It's odd most families with intact son's...half are happy about it...and half go through a phase they are ready to be circed. Probably normal.









Where in the WORLD did this "statistic" come from??? I've never heard of such nonsense!!


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## TryingMyBest (Aug 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veganf* 







Where in the WORLD did this "statistic" come from??? I've never heard of such nonsense!!

It's just what I drew from talking to intact parents. It was odd because one of the two always seemed to go through a phase. Not a real statistic and certainly not one on a large populace to draw a conclusion from.


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## titania8 (Feb 15, 2007)

do you really have an appt scheduled? what if you just decided to NOT do it? would you feel relieved that the decision was made? i know i always feel better when things are final. especially when the choice is so blatantly obvious. just decide not to do it. simple.

i think you are overthinking this. you have talked about peers, and statistics and all that. but i think we need to change the statistics, not rely on them to tell us what to do with our kids' genitals. i chose not to contribute to high circ rates. i chose instead to follow my gut, as you did when you rescued your son from the circumstraint. and can i just say *GOOD FOR YOU!!!* for doing that!! i have not heard of that before, though i think we should be hearing about it all the time! talk about mama bear instinct!

you will not regret leaving your son intact, and neither will he. really. on saturday you will be so relieved to have your happy, whole, content baby sleeping in your arms. your heart will not be heavy with guilt or regret.


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## TryingMyBest (Aug 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *titania8* 
do you really have an appt scheduled? what if you just decided to NOT do it? would you feel relieved that the decision was made? i know i always feel better when things are final. especially when the choice is so blatantly obvious. just decide not to do it. simple.

i think you are overthinking this. you have talked about peers, and statistics and all that. but i think we need to change the statistics, not rely on them to tell us what to do with our kids' genitals. i chose not to contribute to high circ rates. i chose instead to follow my gut, as you did when you rescued your son from the circumstraint. and can i just say *GOOD FOR YOU!!!* for doing that!! i have not heard of that before, though i think we should be hearing about it all the time! talk about mama bear instinct!

you will not regret leaving your son intact, and neither will he. really. on saturday you will be so relieved to have your happy, whole, content baby sleeping in your arms. your heart will not be heavy with guilt or regret.


So, honestly...you ladies didn't regret leaving your sons intact afterward....for fear of the future? That is a breath of fresh air if so!


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## guestmama9908 (Jan 23, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
So, honestly...you ladies didn't regret leaving your sons intact afterward....for fear of the future? That is a breath of fresh air if so!

Mama, If my son was intact right now I would be SO relieved. Instead I have to live with the guilt that he isn't every day.







:

You are a good and strong Mama! I am thinking of you.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
So, honestly...you ladies didn't regret leaving your sons intact afterward....for fear of the future? That is a breath of fresh air if so!

Why on earth would anyone regret NOT causing an infant pain for no medical reason?

Why on earth would anyone regret NOT mutilating the genitals of a newborn?

Why on earth would anyone regret NOT reducing the size of a boy's penis?

Why on earth would anyone regret NOT risking a newborn's life for elective surgery?

-Angela


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
So, honestly...you ladies didn't regret leaving your sons intact afterward....for fear of the future? That is a breath of fresh air if so!

My intact son is five. I've never had ONE DAY of regret for leaving him intact. (Just the opposite--I've spent every day glad that I spared him of that trauma.) I will raise him to appreciate (and be proud of) his bodily integrity!

PS. My son is white, middle class, just for the record. His intact cousin and intact second-cousin are white middle-class, also.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carriebft* 
Of course, this whole peer discussion is assuming the naked peers penis parade will be coming by frequently.










Just raise a confident boy and there will be no problems even if all these myths about naked peer pressure magically come true.


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## glongley (Jun 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
So, honestly...you ladies didn't regret leaving your sons intact afterward....for fear of the future? That is a breath of fresh air if so!

No regret, no second thoughts whatsoever. Gillian


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## guestmama9908 (Jan 23, 2007)

I don't know anyone who regrets having an intact son. However there is a whole thread of people who regret having circumcised our sons.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=112410


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

I have been actively participating on this message board for a tad over five years, and have read/participated on a number of others on the circumcision issue.

I have never, ever, not ONCE read a story of a mother REGRETTING leaving her son intact.

I have read many, many, many, many stories of mothers circumcising their sons and regretting it.

Can you honestly say that you're still even thinking about circumcision? Do you honestly think that you could hand your son over to be cut on tomorrow and not regret it for the rest of your life? You don't have the excuse of ignorance any more. Now you know better.

Edited because my fingers were going way faster than my brain!


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky* 
I have never, ever, not ONCE read a story of a mother leaving her son intact.


Just to clarify.........you've never read a _*regret*_ story regarding a mother leaving her son intact. Because obviously a lot of the mamas here have left their sons intact.


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
So, honestly...you ladies didn't regret leaving your sons intact afterward....for fear of the future? That is a breath of fresh air if so!

Not for a single second. There was never, ever a time I've regretted it.









On the contrary, I'm PROUD of my choice! It's the best choice to be made! I am so very happy that I learned from my mistake!


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

And mama, you do not have to decide this today. You do not have to decide this tomorrow, either. You do not have to decide this next week. Or next month. You can read here, share here, and think about this _*as long as you need to.*_ But once you cut, you can never go back. Cancel that appointment. Spend more time with us. You came here because you WANT IT TO BE OK TO LEAVE YOUR SON INTACT. You wanted reassurance that it's ok. And guess what, it's more than ok. It's fantastic.

Here's an article I feel inspired to share with you:

http://www.noharmm.org/feminist.htm


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## Kailey's mom (Apr 19, 2007)

I couldn't read and not post. I don't have a son. But I have an intact husband who is sitting right here. He was NEVER teased about his penis. Never wanted to be circumsized. Never paid much attention to other boys penis' to know he was different or the same. He thinks circumsization is rather ridiculous. His older brother was circumsized. he ONLY knows that because his mom told him a few years ago when she was debating having his little brother, who is now 4 circed, TG my husband talked her out of it







..don't do it hun..


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
So, honestly...you ladies didn't regret leaving your sons intact afterward....for fear of the future? That is a breath of fresh air if so!

After reading this entire thread (and probably others), on a pro-intact board, composed of non-circumcising parents, you're surprised that none of us regret leaving our babies whole? Really? I find that strange.

My son is going to be 4 in October and his penis is as whole, perfect, & healthy as the day he was born. He rinses his whole body in the bath every couple days, no special care is necessary.

Jen


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

TryingMyBest, it sounds to me like you're still trying to think of this as a "what is everyone else doing?" thing. Whether it's circumcising or not circumcising.

But in the end, there's only ONE PERSON on the face of this planet who will ever know what it's like to be inside your son's body, and that's your son.

This is his body. This is his decision to make (when he's an adult). This is HIS PENIS and it should be HIS CHOICE.

Even if every single person in the United States told you to circumcise him, it would still be wrong because it is HIS BODY. Not a single solitary soul besides your son will ever experience life as he does, and not a single solitary soul -- not even you -- has the moral and ethical right to decide something as fundamentally important as how his penis should look.

You know, I really think you need to stop trying to figure out what everyone else wants or would do and just sit with your son, look at his perfect body, and think of what your son wants. He wants to be snuggled, he wants to be nursed, he wants to be close to you and taken care of. That's all you need to do for him tomorrow and all the rest of the days of his babyhood and childhood.

Just leave it up to him and let him decide how he wants his penis to look when he's an adult. He won't regret it and neither will you.


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## titania8 (Feb 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
So, honestly...you ladies didn't regret leaving your sons intact afterward....for fear of the future? That is a breath of fresh air if so!

not only do i not regret leaving them intact, i am honestly happy about it, pretty much everytime i change them, bathe them, or see them run around naked. i know that sounds freakish, but its true. i was *this* close to agreeing to it. my dh wanted it done, it is an important part of his religion and he had strong feelings about it, though his feelings were conflicting. but even though i didn't agree to it, and he came around enough to spare the boys, i am still bothered by how close i came. i know i would have had a hard time with the guilt and the regret. i would have had resentments that no doubt would have caused stress in our marriage. i know more now than i did when i was pg and considering it, but i think you know enough to know its wrong. i know you know more than i did at that point in my life.

we are white and middle class too. and all my friends have circd their white middle class boys. be the change you want to see. you wish circ weren't so prevalent? stop doing it. end of story.

do you need to do any grocery shopping? tomorrow might be a great time to do it!







or maybe you have some relatives to visit? or a cake to bake or soup to make? you know, for your celebration in honor of keeping your son intact.


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## titania8 (Feb 15, 2007)

Quote:

Even if every single person in the United States told you to circumcise him, it would still be wrong because it is HIS BODY. Not a single solitary soul besides your son will ever experience life as he does, and not a single solitary soul -- not even you -- has the moral and ethical right to decide something as *fundamentally important as how his penis should look.
*

not only how it looks, but how it functions. i know this is probably really hard for you, since you have 2 circd sons already, but the truth is when you take something away, it does change things. the foreskin is *functional*. i think that is an important point to keep in mind, we're not talking about looks only here. see, he will likely have a partner in his life, and well, i'll just be honest and up front about this- i wish my dh had a foreskin. and i know im not alone in feeling that way. there was a thread here a while back discussing that very issue.

but i will second what quirky said, only he will know what its like to be in his body and have his penis.


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
So, honestly...you ladies didn't regret leaving your sons intact afterward....for fear of the future? That is a breath of fresh air if so!

It seems like such a strange question to me. Why in the world would I regret leaving all of his body parts actually attached to him?

The answer to your question is no. Not for one minute of one day have I regretted not having a healthy functioning part of my child amputated.

I do, however, regret my husband's circ every day.


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## Jillie (May 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *l_olive* 
It seems like such a strange question to me. Why in the world would I regret leaving all of his body parts actually attached to him?

The answer to your question is no. Not for one minute of one day have I regretted not having a healthy functioning part of my child amputated.

I do, however, regret my husband's circ every day.


This applies to me too. My son looks just right and I know someday he will function right too. And I often regret my poor dh's circ, and he has no obvious problems from it either. I just wish is was all there for me (and him).


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## Lady Madonna (Jul 2, 2004)

TryingMyBest, you had such a strong protective feeling that you went and took your baby off the circumstraint - please honor that feeling and don't put him back there!

My story: when I was pregnant the first time, my mother badgered and badgered me about having the baby circumcised if we had a boy. I finally had to say "we are not doing that, period, end of discussion". We had a girl, so the subject never came up again.

Until my second pregnancy (again, we did not find out the sex) - then she brought it up again. Again, I said no, we are not doing that. She actually said to me "well, he's going to hate you when he's 14 or 15."

My response was: likely, he's going to hate me when he's 14 or 15 no matter what, given my stated goal of being known as The Meanest Mom Ever. I'd rather he hate me for NOT cutting off a perfectly normal and functional part of his body than hate me for handing him over at just a few days old to HAVE PART OF HIS PENIS CUT OFF.

That pretty much shut her up.

Think about that: what is done cannot be undone, no matter how much you regret it or wish it hadn't been done. Having your son ask you why you let that happen to him, when you were supposed to be his biggest protector, when he was defenseless and unable to protest or protect himself - I cannot imagine looking at my son and trying to defend my absolute failure to keep him safe and whole.

Bodily integrity and self-determination are basic human rights. If you want to teach your sons to stand up for those rights all their lives, start now by refusing to mutilate your baby in the name of conformity and "what if".


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## tamagotchi (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
I am afraid that he will just want to be like everyone else but be too old to want to do the surgery because it IS such an undertaking for an older person.

This is a myth. Actually circumcision is much easier and less traumatic for an adult. My DH chose to be circ'd in his 30s (for religious reasons). It was a very brief outpatient surgery done with local anesthesia, it only took about 20 minutes, and he didn't even need any pain relief afterwards.

It's very, very unlikely that an intact man would want to be circ'd. But if he does, he can always make that choice himself when he is an adult. On the other hand, a circ'd man can never really get his foreskin back, even if he restores (and restoration is a lot more work than getting circ'd).


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

Did your dh see the Penn&Teller video yet? If he has a sense of humor he will find it hilarious while learning a few things at the same time.

Dear TryingMyBest's Husband,
Congratulations on your newest arrival! I applaud you for protecting your son's genital integrity. My husband suggested to me that I should show you this video. I hope you will find some humor in it. My husband did.

Click on the link. This is Penn&Teller
and they have something they want to say to you.

If you liked that one you'll like the Senslip video too. This one doesn't have a baby being circumcised in it. I think you'll enjoy it as much as my dear husband (dh) did. Its not to sell you anything. It may seem weird at first so please bare with me. Click on the link that says video on the page and hear what the lady has to say. You'll be surprised you did. Oh and I don't want you getting the wrong idea. Remember while you're watching it that artificial isn't the same thing as natural. Natural trumps artificial any day!

Sincerely,
~FW


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## jessjgh1 (Nov 4, 2004)

A&A has this as a siggie:

"Circumcision is a violent wound on the body of a boy and the heart of a mother."

You know the facts now. You already stepped in. Follow your heart. Everything else will fall in to place.

Also, not only do I have no regrets... but i know that if I had circumcised my son, I would have had at least a daily reminder of my decision and would be devestated. I'm not sure my marriage would be intactm and I know my heart would be shattered, as would my confidence as a mother and as a protector of my children.

I came so close to consenting that it took me months to not cry over that at at least once a day-- I just can't imagine what I would have felt if I had consented and had had to look at a wound on my son the first years.

Jessica


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jessjgh1* 
A&A has this as a siggie:

"Circumcision is a violent wound on the body of a boy and the heart of a mother."









:
I'm haunted by what happened to my first ds 7 yrs ago! He was circumcised.







: I'll carry this regret to my grave! My heart will be wounded till the day I die!

I DO NOT regret leaving my two other ds intact. I actually have nightmares that they got circumcised and wake up the next morning feeling so relieved that they're still intact. I will not ever regret leaving them intact.

That is such a strange assumption to me. Why on earth would anyone regret leaving their son WHOLE as nature intended it!?!!!


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## +stella+ (Apr 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
So, honestly...you ladies didn't regret leaving your sons intact afterward....for fear of the future? That is a breath of fresh air if so!

I had fears similar to yours when my son was born, looking at him now almost three years later, I can honestly and completely stand behind that I for not one second have regretted leaving him intact.

I plan on telling him why I did, that it wasnt my choice to make, sharing some info on the function and purpose of the foreskin and telling him how lucky he is to be whole.

never ever ever have regretted it for a second, honest truth.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
You are EXACTLY right. This is precisely why I was mentioning white rates. I was trying to get an assessment of his peers...as we are while middle classers. I was also concerned that with the possibility of a negative stigma that the "class" thing would come up...which is why I mentioned it. I have no issue with any other race...just wanted a subjective piece of information. Thank you for posting this response.

I mentioned earlier that my father comes from a noncirc'ing culture. That happens to be Ireland. Yep very white, very middle class on his fathers side anyway, they had servants and all.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
When I talked to my sisters husband about this...he was appauled that I would NOT circ DS.

And how does your baby having a foreskin effect them?









Seriously the most likely reason he is appauled is b/c it reminds him that he is missing something.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
So, honestly...you ladies didn't regret leaving your sons intact afterward....for fear of the future? That is a breath of fresh air if so!

I never even considered it an option.


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## veganf (Dec 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
So, honestly...you ladies didn't regret leaving your sons intact afterward....for fear of the future? That is a breath of fresh air if so!

Never crossed my mind, not once. All I could see was/is my perfect little baby who grew just the way he was supposed to thanks to tens of thousands of years of evolution.
I help my children to take care of their bodies when they are little. I would never choose to hurt them unless I thought it was going to save their lives.

And my circ'd husband never thought it for a moment either. He said, "the foreskin evolved for a reason, why would someone think to cut it off??" And he never in a million years could imagine allowing one of his boys to endure that kind of torture.


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## TryingMyBest (Aug 14, 2007)

315 this morning I am pacing the bedroom. The baby can sense the tension and he is awake too. The first time since my milk came in that he was awake at an odd time. He is a pleasant baby that sleeps more than through the night at 3 days old. Crazy good.

DH can't sleep either, he feels nauseous and sick to his stomach so he's on the computer. He asks why I am up. I tell him I am having a hard time sleeping. He says well, it's over now. I asked him what he meant and he said..I made the decision. We are not going. I asked him why, he said don't ask me anything. I made the decision, now leave it alone. I still don't know what happened.

No matter what any of you say, there is a relief and I feel better. But, I am also scared. Embarassed or not by this piece of information but going that far against the grain in a community with 90% circ rates is scary. It is completely backward to say that...but we cannot deny our feelings right? I didn't feel strong enough to deal with it "forever"....KWIM? It still feels weird to have EVERYONE (short of you guys) tell you to do it, it feels foreign. I worry for any effects it will have on my house. This was the flip side to my decision. I am hoping that the relief of not hurting this baby will continue to override those fears. I will have to find a strong support network to help out. NOONE I know has NOT circed their boys.

Either way, I am exhausted and I am going to bed.


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Maybe you need to step back and see this as not such a big deal to leave him alone. He was born with a foreskin. The care of the foreskin is LEAVE IT ALONE. You wash it like it was a finger.

So...

No procedures
No special care
No worries
No wound care

Just leave it there. That's it. He's had it for like a week or whatever, right? He hasn't combusted or anything yet! He's fine, and I daresay...he's happy! right?

You've already done it! you've been doing it since he was born. No need to constantly have it on your mind and worry.


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

Oh, and awesome job following your instincts!









Quote:

NOONE I know has NOT circed their boys.
YOu mentioned a family you know didn't circ their boys and had no regrets about it (whereas another family you knew did have "some issues"). Can't you confide in that first family?


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## veganf (Dec 12, 2005)

Get some sleep, and I hope you wake up and thank your husband for respecting your beautiful third son's whole body. Then get up and have a wonderful day with your whole family.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest*
315 this morning I am pacing the bedroom. The baby can sense the tension and he is awake too. The first time since my milk came in that he was awake at an odd time. He is a pleasant baby that sleeps more than through the night at 3 days old. Crazy good.

DH can't sleep either, he feels nauseous and sick to his stomach so he's on the computer. He asks why I am up. I tell him I am having a hard time sleeping. He says well, it's over now. I asked him what he meant and he said..I made the decision. We are not going. I asked him why, he said don't ask me anything. I made the decision, now leave it alone. I still don't know what happened.

No matter what any of you say, there is a relief and I feel better. But, I am also scared. Embarassed or not by this piece of information but going that far against the grain in a community with 90% circ rates is scary. It is completely backward to say that...but we cannot deny our feelings right? I didn't feel strong enough to deal with it "forever"....KWIM? It still feels weird to have EVERYONE (short of you guys) tell you to do it, it feels foreign. I worry for any effects it will have on my house. This was the flip side to my decision. I am hoping that the relief of not hurting this baby will continue to override those fears. I will have to find a strong support network to help out. NOONE I know has NOT circed their boys.

Either way, I am exhausted and I am going to bed.

It can be hard to make the right decision, but you ARE making the right decision, and your son will thank you for it later in life.





















You and your dh are breaking the cycle of abuse, and you should be very proud of yourselves.

Now just snuggle that perfect little baby and try to relax, mama! You need some time to recover both emotionally and physically from the birth. Just settle in and love your son!


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

I have NO regrets None, Nada, Zip, Zero. Even tho my dh wanted it, my mom wanted it, my il's wanted it. Everyone in my life was pushing it. I am proud of the fact my ds is intact.

I will never regret leaving him intact even if in the future something happens that he has to be circed I will always know I did the right thing.

Quote:

On the contrary, I'm PROUD of my choice! It's the best choice to be made!








:

Quote:

I do, however, regret my husband's circ every day.
A big huge







: I so wish my il's had kept their bussiness out of our bed.









I can understand going against the grain. Shoot I am the only person I know IRL who has a intact ds







I am the only one I know who did clw. I am the only one who dosnt do CIO.

You are not alone there are many of us here. I know it is hard for you but leaving your ds intact is the right thing to do. No ifs ands or buts about it.

Thank goodness your dh is for not doing it. What a great man









A piece of advice, if it comes up in conversation especially with family like it did with mine just tell them it is no longer up for discussion and to never bring it up to you again.

A quick reminder to never let anyone mess with his foreskin not even a Dr. just tell them before the diaper comes off dont touch.

Most of the problems that people talk about is caused by improper foreskin care ie pushing back on it. Wipe it like a finger only and swish in the bath that is it.


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## gridley13 (Sep 3, 2004)

You are making the right decision.

I suspect in a while, after all this commotion and thought about circ has passed, you will look at his perfectly normal intact penis and think "what was I so confused about?!"

Mine is intact and it is just normal to me, we have never had issues, we are very VERY happy we left him as he is born.

You are making the right decision to leave his penis alone. You are choosing to NOT cause harm. Not hurting your baby is the right thing to do.


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## gridley13 (Sep 3, 2004)

Oh yes... like the post before mine... make sure everyone leaves it alone. No retracting, just leave the cute little thing alone.


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## gridley13 (Sep 3, 2004)

Sorry... I keep posting.









Just to be clear:

My son is intact. I do not regret it. We have had no problems.

I am proud he is intact. I would feel terrible if I had made the mistake of letting him be circumcised.


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## MiamiMami (Feb 1, 2005)

Thank you for leaving our son intact!!

Have you been on the finding your tribes section? Go there and meet up with some local mdc Mamas.


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## Telle Bear (Jul 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
NOONE I know has NOT circed their boys.

Now that you "know better" you will be surprised when you start hearing of all the people you DO know that are intact.....After we decided to leave our son whole...people came out of the woodwork to tell me about how they were intact(way weird...especially when you work with them!!!), about boyfriend that were intact...fathers...etc...

I went into work one day wearing a pro-intact T-shirt ( it was my day off I just had to stop in to get something)...and my boss asked me if he could get a shirt in his size.....

YOU ARE AN AWESOME MOM AND YOU HAVE MADE A GREAT CHOICE FOR YOUR CHILD!!!!


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## Super Pickle (Apr 29, 2002)

Dear Trying,
Hi. I'm so glad your DH took the pressure off of you. You can just relax now and enjoy your baby.

You might be surprised at who in your community _is_ intact. When I was a kid, I didn't know what circumcised meant or looked like, but I had always been told it just _had to be done_. Well, I did a lot of baby-sitting (in South Carolina in the 80's and 90's) , and once in a while I'd notice that some neighbor kid's penis looked "strange" (to me). It never, ever crossed my mind that they might not have been circumcised b/c I'd been taught that _every_ boy _had to be_ circ'ed. It wasn't until I became interested in intativism that it hit me: Ohhhh, _that's_ why little Joe's penis looked different...Of course! His mom was a lactation consultant, it all makes sense!" Or "Yeah, I always wondered why little Johnny's penis was pointy...I never considered that it could be b/c his dad was from Germany and wouldn't have circmcised his son!"


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## DklovesMkandJK (Jun 18, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *titania8* 
not only do i not regret leaving them intact, i am honestly happy about it, pretty much everytime i change them, bathe them, or see them run around naked. i know that sounds freakish, but its true. i was *this* close to agreeing to it. my dh wanted it done, it is an important part of his religion and he had strong feelings about it, though his feelings were conflicting. but even though i didn't agree to it, and he came around enough to spare the boys, i am still bothered by how close i came. i know i would have had a hard time with the guilt and the regret. i would have had resentments that no doubt would have caused stress in our marriage. i know more now than i did when i was pg and considering it, but i think you know enough to know its wrong. i know you know more than i did at that point in my life.


I feel 100% the same way!


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## fruitful womb (Nov 20, 2004)

Congratulations!!!







Thats one lucky little guy!!!







Now you can rest and enjoy your new baby, ALL of him!







You earned it! Your lucky to have such a wonderful dh too!







He deserves a lot of credit for protecting that baby boy!!!








First you rescue him from the circumstraint then he rescues him from the appointment! WOW! You guys are awesome parents!!!


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## Jillie (May 24, 2005)

Good for you! And better for ds! Soon it will be a non issue, just life going on. And remember the leave it alone thing, it is really easy to care for. And like someone says, there is not a daily penis parade,so those who would cause you to second guess yourselves, never need to know. Lucky boy!


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## veganf (Dec 12, 2005)

I am curious what made your husband change his mind...even if he doesn't want to talk about it now, maybe he will in the future; it might be helpful for others to know in order to help other parents who don't agree on circumcision.


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## TryingMyBest (Aug 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *veganf* 
I am curious what made your husband change his mind...even if he doesn't want to talk about it now, maybe he will in the future; it might be helpful for others to know in order to help other parents who don't agree on circumcision.

He won't tell me at all. He said he just got a bad feeling about it. Said that he doesn't think its a good idea anymore. That's all I could get outta him....trust me....I tried.

At 11 pm....he was still planning on going. By 3....it was a no. Either way, the appt was at 11 am...so moot now. We didn't go.


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## carriebft (Mar 10, 2007)

That rocks, you guys share great instincts!


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## Papai (Apr 9, 2007)

I'm so glad your husband had a change of heart.

You should really just relish the fact that your son is whole and stop fretting about what you think other people will say or how they will react. Honestly, you say the circ rate is 90 percent, but how would you know? Are you checking every little boy's penis to verify? Chances are there are more intact boys walking around then you think.

Congrats again!


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## Lady Madonna (Jul 2, 2004)

Oh, I'm so glad that someone or something showed your husband the way.

Your son's penis is NO ONE ELSE'S BUSINESS. Seriously - think about it! Not until he's old enough to want to have sex should anyone else have anything to say about his penis. So if anyone - friends, family, random buttmunch on the street - brings it up, I suggest responding with "wow, it's really weird how much you're focusing on my son's penis when it really has nothing to do with you. Pervert much?"

Of course, having said that, I do have one regret regarding circumcision: that I didn't speak out about it when my brother and SIL were expecting my nephew. They knew they were having a boy - I only had DD at the time - and I had the gut feeling that I should bring up the subject. I didn't respect that gut feeling for a variety of reasons and now whenever I think about it, I feel so sorry for my nephew and a twinge of guilt for not even trying to protect him. It doesn't help that his penis looks totally mutilated, especially now that I have my own intact DS to really see what hapened to my nephew. My DH is circumcised, but an adult penis and a baby penis aren't really comparable, so seeing my poor nephew was really a shock.

Again, GOOD FOR YOU AND YOUR HUSBAND. You made the right choice.


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## bluetoes (May 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
He won't tell me at all. He said he just got a bad feeling about it. Said that he doesn't think its a good idea anymore. That's all I could get outta him....trust me....I tried.

At 11 pm....he was still planning on going. By 3....it was a no. Either way, the appt was at 11 am...so moot now. We didn't go.

I am happy for you guys. I think you'll find it's one of those decisions that the more time passes the more you'll feel like you did the right thing.

Your husband might be feeling guilt for wanting it done or even sad it was done to him. Either way he's a great guy for coming to the decision for you. Big hugs to you both and your wee man!


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## titania8 (Feb 15, 2007)

what a wonderful dh you have! im so happy to the good news. i hope you find peace with this, and realize what a non issue it is. i know it feels huge right now, and there are lots of 'what ifs' floating around in your head, but it will pass. try and focus on the miracle that is your new baby. his penis is non of anyone else's business. end of discussion. many hugs mama (and papa!!)


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## glongley (Jun 30, 2004)

Great news, TryingMyBest! You and your husband are both awesome in terms of wrestling with this, and then listening to your gut feelings.

I think once you both get through the sleep deprivation, and then have a chance to talk some more about it , that you will get clearer and clearer about what really lead you to this decision.

If people ask why you didn't circumcise, be ready with a simple, honest answer, to help you avoid feeling anxious over this: e.g. "We just didn't feel it was our choice to make." "It's just not necessary." "He's perfect the way he is." "We just couldn't put him through that for no good reason," or whatever else really ultimately tipped the scales in favor of not doing it. Although you don't really owe anyone an explanation, I think it would be good for you to frame in your own mind the positive reasons why you didn't do it, rather than just the default: "Oh we just couldn't make up our minds, and then the insurance wouldn't pay for it, and I hope he doesn't hate us later" kind of stuff that you have been going through the last few days.

Do keep educating yourselves. The more you know, the more comfortable and confident you will be in raising a son intact, and the better able to protect his wholeness as he grows up (given some of the pressures and ignorance in our culture). Your son deserves your full support in being intact. The time for vacillation is over.

Here's an article I feel is a must-read for all parents of intact boys, called "Protect Your Uncircumcised Son" by "foreskin-friendly" pediatrician Paul Fleiss, a good place to start your post-decision education, and an important reference down the road:
http://www.mothering.com/articles/ne...uncircson.html

Again, congratulations to you both on your new baby and on successfully navigating a great growth experience. You made the right decision, and we are here to help you with any other information or support your might need.

Gillian


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## zak (Mar 6, 2005)

I'm sorry this was such a stressful and trying time, but you guys made the best decision! I'm so glad!!!!


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## calngavinsmom (Feb 19, 2003)

I am so happy to read your update. You have one lucky little guy there....and a whole board of support here. We are here whenever you need us!

I agree with checking out the "finding your tribe" section. You might be surprised to find some intact friends for your little one









Take care,
Tara


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## jessjgh1 (Nov 4, 2004)

Thanks for the good news.

And just so you know, it is not like this board is the only forum that exists... there ARE other intact- support groups and there ARE likely more allies out there for you than you know about.

Jessica


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## TryingMyBest (Aug 14, 2007)

Thanks Glongley, you are a really sweet person. I agree with what you are saying. It takes time to get over the fear side of it...stupid society again. It would have just been so much easier if the procedure had NEVER been created in the US back in the 1800's. It really stinks that things got as far as they did.

Anyway, I think that the beginning of my problem was some post partum depression. Today, I hit rock bottom. I think the shift from anxiety to nothing....shifted me into high gear depression. We went to lunch and I just laid my head on the table and cried...and I still don't know WHY. It would make sense on why I had blown the topic so wildly out of proportion in the beginning anyway. It was so hard to figure out up from down...I was too deep into the quagmire and I am assuming hormonally I just couldn't get my arms around it. I called my doc to see if I should try medicine but I am breastfeeding...and I WON'T subject the baby to anything that will cross milk. The cool thing about today is that I realized what was fueling the majority of my angst etc. It HAS to be hormones or PPD. I am normally not such a basket case.

Thank you for your reply. If you get time, EMAIL me, I would love to continue dialogue with you.


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## TryingMyBest (Aug 14, 2007)

How do I look for my tribes? Where in the world are those?


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

What state do you live in? We can link you to the "tribe" area for that state. (Some "tribes" are more active than others.)


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
No matter what any of you say, there is a relief and I feel better. But, I am also scared. Embarassed or not by this piece of information but going that far against the grain in a community with 90% circ rates is scary. It is completely backward to say that...but we cannot deny our feelings right? I didn't feel strong enough to deal with it "forever"....KWIM? It still feels weird to have EVERYONE (short of you guys) tell you to do it, it feels foreign. I worry for any effects it will have on my house. This was the flip side to my decision. I am hoping that the relief of not hurting this baby will continue to override those fears. I will have to find a strong support network to help out. NOONE I know has NOT circed their boys.

Either way, I am exhausted and I am going to bed.











For now, just focus on the relief.

And come here often!


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

And let me tell you...........five years ago, when I left my son intact, I didn't know ONE PERSON in real life with an intact son.

But now, my sister, my friend, and my cousin all left their baby boys intact......because of me and my information. So, if/when you feel up to it, you can help spread the word about not circumcising.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

If you look at the top of this page, you'll see the headings/subheadings with little > arrows showing you that currently you're in MotheringDotCommune Forums > Health > The Case Against Circumcision. If you click on the MotheringDotCommune link, that will take you to the main forum page (this forum is just a small part of the whole forum).

There is a main heading for Tribal Areas, with subheadings for geographical areas. Here is the link to the tribal area for Georgia, Florida, and Alabama:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...splay.php?f=77

Also, you should definitely go over to the Post-partum Depression forum -- lots of great information and support there. Even if you decide meds are not for you, you will get many suggestions on natural therapies to help you combat this problem. At a minimum, I would recommend taking several fish oil capsules a day -- it's healthy oil, helps your brain with issues like depression, and will help your baby's brain deveopment as well as it will make your breast milk healthier. An all-around win-win!









http://www.mothering.com/discussions...splay.php?f=28


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 

Anyway, I think that the beginning of my problem was some post partum depression. Today, I hit rock bottom. I think the shift from anxiety to nothing....shifted me into high gear depression.

I'm so sorry you're feeling so down.









You've made a brave and wise decision and I'm quite sure your son will someday thank you.

Take time to get yourself to a happier place, visit some of the other areas here -- did you know there's a postpartum depression forum? -- but please, please come back when you're feeling up to it.

There are still are a few things you need to know about having an intact son -- like what retraction is and why it's BAD, and how to protect him from people (like grandmas and docs and nurses) who might try to retract him. Or what separation trauma is and what it looks like.

I don't want you to think that these things are scary, though, and you seem to be in a fragile place right now.

So please remember this... Foreskins are not something to be afraid of. They're no more dirty or prone to disease than any other part of the body.

I have great respect for you and your dh for making what was a difficult decision for you.

Take care mama.


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

There are safe meds you can take while bfing Zoloft is the best. I wouldnt be alive today without taking it I had ppd so bad. So dont let bfing stop you. I took it for 15months after my dd and around 5months after my ds they are both fine and they both still have their mommy.

If you feel like you need meds then take them dont allow yourself to suffer when it is preventable.


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## TryingMyBest (Aug 14, 2007)

Thanks guys! I am feeling better this evening even though DH is completely mortified of me. I kept clinging to him trying to feel better...and I think he thought I was going to start humping his leg or something. Oh well...he had to get out of the house for a while. He has never seen me so irrational and out of my head as I was this week. I am embarassed to even read half the stuff I have written on this board or my regular board. Ughghghghghghghghgh. I am a moderator and forum leader on that site....so...probably going to abuse my privaledge and scurge the permanent record all Ferris Bueller like.

Anyway, I got on the Atlanta page and sent a "Shout Out" out on a play group thingy. So maybe there are some girls around here that wanna get together.

My little monster is snoozing in my lap finally...I think he is starting to decompress too. Always have to wonder what all the little boogers pick up on. He was SO tense.

Anyway, thanks!


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## tuansprincess (Oct 25, 2005)

I'm so happy for your family. Take care of yourself and your little ones.








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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
I hate to say it but it seems that white girls are the most "squeamish" about it..they have kind of nasty attitudes about oral sex on uncirced guys in some cases.

You're looking at this through the perspective of someone who grew up in an era where intact was the oddity. Remember that in the 1980s, the vast majority of American newborns were circumcised. So the vast majority of men in their 20s and 30s are circumcised. Our kids generation is the one where circumcision has fallen from being the overwhelmingly common choice to done a little more than half. When our own kids are adults having sex every other man will be intact. Intact will no longer be the oddity it is among 20 and 30-somethings it is today. When our sons are intact women their age won't think twice before giving them oral because by then the intact penis will be perfectly normal.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
A VALID fear to worry that your child will not be happy with your decision EITHER WAY.

It might help you if you stop thinking of leaving your son intact as a decision you have to make. As Papai said, that's like saying you made the decision not to pull your son's eyeballs out. Leaving a human being with all the normal and healthy body parts he was born with is simply the right thing to do.


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## +stella+ (Apr 17, 2005)

Here I go with the waaaay TMI, but the first guy I ever performed oral sex on was intact. And this was when I was in 9th grade in West Virginia. Let me tell you, I am sure he was an oddity, but I "loved him" ( "" because I was 15 what did I know ) I didnt have a problem.

My son only has one testicle, I figure, if a girl likes him enough to be that close to tell, she will have a lot of other reasons for liking him and she wont care. Oh and he is intact, which is funny because I worry about the testicle thing more, his intact state I dont even worry with. go figure


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TryingMyBest* 
315 this morning I am pacing the bedroom. The baby can sense the tension and he is awake too. The first time since my milk came in that he was awake at an odd time. He is a pleasant baby that sleeps more than through the night at 3 days old. Crazy good.

DH can't sleep either, he feels nauseous and sick to his stomach so he's on the computer. He asks why I am up. I tell him I am having a hard time sleeping. He says well, it's over now. I asked him what he meant and he said..I made the decision. We are not going. I asked him why, he said don't ask me anything. I made the decision, now leave it alone. I still don't know what happened.

No matter what any of you say, there is a relief and I feel better. But, I am also scared. Embarassed or not by this piece of information but going that far against the grain in a community with 90% circ rates is scary. It is completely backward to say that...but we cannot deny our feelings right? I didn't feel strong enough to deal with it "forever"....KWIM? It still feels weird to have EVERYONE (short of you guys) tell you to do it, it feels foreign. I worry for any effects it will have on my house. This was the flip side to my decision. I am hoping that the relief of not hurting this baby will continue to override those fears. I will have to find a strong support network to help out. NOONE I know has NOT circed their boys.

Either way, I am exhausted and I am going to bed.

Hooray!!!


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## RachelGS (Sep 29, 2002)

You're doing the right thing.


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## cottonwood (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:

So, honestly...you ladies didn't regret leaving your sons intact afterward....for fear of the future? That is a breath of fresh air if so!
No, just the opposite. I'm incredibly relieved and thankful that my firstborn wasn't circumcised due to our ignorance. We knew nothing, so it could have easily gone the other way.

I was just at a family gathering (where I'm sure 95% of the males were circumcised) and saw a baby boy, ten weeks old. He was always in arms, breastfed and big and healthy. And fussy, edgy. I couldn't help but wonder if he'd been put through the trauma of circumcision. Sure enough. When I saw his exposed glans I felt so, so bad for him. And bad for his parents, who, being as loving as they are, surely simply didn't know better. If they knew what they'd done, they'd be overwhelmed with guilt and grief. I don't even want to think about how I'd feel now if I'd allowed that to be done to my son, to only later realize how awful and unnecessary it is.


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