# Do that many people really CIO?



## jacksmama (Sep 19, 2003)

Why, oh why do I EVEN go onto other parenting boards for topics like putting your child to sleep? I went on tonight and one woman wrote that she realized that she had damaged her dd because she rocked her to sleep for the first 7 mos of her life.







But now she just lets her cry it out even though the daughter points and crys to the rocking chair to be rocked.







And she's HAPPY about this!!! And you should have read all the people agreeing that she was right and allowing your baby to slam his head into their crib for and HOUR and a half was the right thing to do. I wanted to ....oooh...I can't even believe .......I don't even know how people can ...................................I'm just speechless .................


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## Zootiegurl (Jan 2, 2005)

I know, its just disgusting! It makes me so, so sad.....







How far away so many people have gotten from their natural instincts. How can a mother actually just sit there and listen to their baby cry? This is my first baby and I can't stand to hear him cry for even a minute (most times not even that)!

It just amazes me how normally intelligent and sensitive people can suddenly lose their senses when they have a baby and think that the crying of a baby is just manipulation. Crying is the only form of communication that a baby has for their needs! Modern medicine has really screwed things up with this by trying to "improve" on practices that are millions of years old.









Anyway, wish we could change it, but we can't. There will always be ignorant and selfish people out there....


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## Quillian (Mar 1, 2003)

Yup I'm afraid its widespread and the most popular choice to use if ones sleep is being disrupted by their child







I've been debating this subject on another board for some time and it baffles me how some can continue to condone certain actions. Many of the so called sleep experts-Ferber,Mindell et al give advice such as ignoring a baby that vomits during sleep training-clean them up if need be but carry on







Self soothing behaviors like rocking in ones crib and head banging are considered common and ok and yet awakenings are not by these same so called professionals







I'll get off my soapbox now but yes I'm afraid its all too common and often the first choice many use to manage their child. What's really sad is when the baby,some as young as 8 weeks,are sleeping fine but just need a little help getting there. Whats even scarier if you read any of the bw stuff is the philosophy behind Ezzo's sleep training-its discipline pure and simple and this is the first intro for many babes who then suffer cio for playpen time etc..


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

Well I know plenty do







Because Dh comes home every week telling me about *another* client who let their child(ren) CIO and how WONDERFUL it was, and yes they cried for FIVE HOURS STRAIGHT the first night, but then the second night only THREE HOURS STRAIGHT and then after a few more nights they slept. Isn't that great honey?? Shouldn't we do that?? What? You mean after 17 months of little sleep, a wacky schedule, and going through hell and back to avoid letting Orion CIO at night and attending to his needs regardless of your own; you don't think its a good idea to let him CIO?
















































































EVERY time he comes home with his little "stories" we end up arguing so badly we aren't speaking. And he still pushes it. *&^%!!

Luckily we have worked out a compromise because Orion's sleep SCHEDULE is really bad. ( http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?p=2622926 if you're interested...)


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## mainegirl (Jul 13, 2004)

I don't get it, either. There are many people who don't seem to be able to put themselves in their child's place...whenever I worry about how my son is reacting to something I do, I try to imagine how I would feel in the same situation, and this is the emotional barometer I use to be a more empathic parent.

It makes me so sad...all we can do as mamas is try to raise our kids to be aware and considerate of others' feelings.

- Jen


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## mainegirl (Jul 13, 2004)

The point I make with people who give me a hard time over co-sleeping and/or refusing to let my son CIO is "I'm an adult and I prefer to sleep with someone else, why should he be any different?"

I wish people would stop treating children like an inconvenience or an accessory that needs to be managed.

My mom was telling me how when I as a child I had a doll whose head I would bang on the wall repeatedly while screaming her name (the doll's, not my mom's). She thought it was funny. I also sucked my thumb well into my teenage years. Looking back I wonder if it was another message altogether.









Okay, ranting over. I know I'm preaching to the choir here.

- Jen


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

That's about the only advice you get on a paticular mainstream board that's associated with a paticular stupid magazine.


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## Henry's_Mamma (Jan 23, 2004)

My neighbor (only other SAHM in my neighborhood w/kids close to ds's age) has twin girls who are almost 2. She did CIO sometime around 6 months old. She keeps advocating it to me. I keep ignoring her. She claims it was great, blah blah blah.

Well, recently, one of her girls (we'll call her "A") got a viral fever thing that lasted for about a week. After that, A awoke in the middle of the night and screamed for 2 hours (mom and dad went in once each). Her mom could find nothing "wrong" with A so mom attributed the screaming it to all the "special treatment" A got when A was sick. And she left her there to scream for those 2 hours. Then, the next day, after her nap, A was SO CLINGY (the kids were playing together). And mom kept trying to push A away (let's hold hands I don't want to hold you kind of thing). The poor kid was visibly upset and unsure of the situation.

And to boot, the neighbor tells me that her dh thinks she's being too lenient in "disciplining" the girls.

People SERIOUSLY believe in CIO. They SERIOUSLY believe there is no harm in it. They SERIOUSLY think it is necessary and proper to ignore their children when the sun goes down. They SERIOUSLY believe that their own needs are vastly superior to those of their children and that children, at least at night, only have physical needs and that emotional needs either don't exist are irrelevant.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

I've sometimes been taken aback at how many people don't do CIO/sleep training. People I would not expect- like conservative people, or republicans, or whatever. I've totally realized that co=sleeping is a personal choice that crosses all sorts of boundaries.

I was brought up with sleep training and detachment parenting, so I though everyone did those things.

That said, people who have sleep problems with their kids and are unsure of themselves tend to go to the mainstream books and magazines. And those books advicate CIO.

It's very sad, but so are many other things about today's parenting norms.


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## mamacarla (Jul 25, 2004)

I don't know anyone IRL who doesn't do and advocate CIO. They know my beliefs and the research behind them. They respect my decisions and all argree how awesome my ds is. They know I have a degree in developmental psych and a masters in counseling and education.

BUT

They all do CIO. SOme do practice some parts of attachment parenting but they all CIO.

I have gotten lots of people to start carrying babies in slings. I have helped people make the move to gentle natural childbirth. I have had people see the importance of keeping baby boys intact. But everyone CIO.

Just my experience.

CArla


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## janerose (May 9, 2004)

Funny (in the sad way, not the ha ha way) I was just thinking about posting something like this. Just was reading on a mainstream 9/04 mamas board about a lady who was considering CIO cause she was SO tired. Know her sleep schedule? Her 4 mo ds sleeps from 8p-3a, wakes to eat 3-4 oz, and then goes back down until about 6.







Her DS is ff (by choice -- she didn't want to bf) & has been getting solids for at least a month. No co-sleeping of course. Like 20 people replied saying how great CIO was & that they couldn't believe she "had to get up so often". The couple AP members who replied were basically ignored, even though they were very respectful in their posts & made sure to provide links about not CIO and gentle alternatives.









Now, her ds's schedule is what my 4 mo dd does on a good night. I







nights like that. Lately dd has been teething & hitting some big developmental milestones (rolling both ways, discovering her feet, blowing razzs, starting to babble), so her sleep is a lot more irregular. We're up anywhere from 2-3 times a night to every hour or so. Luckily I'm still getting 2-3 good nights a week so I'm doing OK but...

WTF!!! I so wanted to





















:







these people. They are so clueless as to what sleep deprivation is. I KNOW how lucky I am, and when I forget I come here & read about mamas whose babes REALLY don't sleep well. Seriously, a baby wakes ONCE a night & the mom "needs" to CIO???

Reading posts like that make me want to







for those poor babes.

I'm seriously thinking about not going to mainstream boards anymore.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Henry's_Mamma*
They SERIOUSLY believe that their own needs are vastly superior to those of their children and that children, at least at night, only have physical needs and that emotional needs either don't exist are irrelevant.

While I do not believe if CIO either, I'm not sure this is accurate, or at least not for everyone who does CIO. Realize that there are mountains of books by doctors, psychololigists and other "experts" of every stripe that say that this is THE one and only answer. That doing anything else is bad FOR YOUR CHILD. That children NEED this. And so forth. Thus, I think a lot of people go against what they feel in their hearts because they believe it is a benefit to the child. Not because they are selfish, but because they have been convinced that if they don't do this, they will create problems for the child.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
While I do not believe if CIO either, I'm not sure this is accurate, or at least not for everyone who does CIO. Realize that there are mountains of books by doctors, psychololigists and other "experts" of every stripe that say that this is THE one and only answer. That doing anything else is bad FOR YOUR CHILD. That children NEED this. And so forth. Thus, I think a lot of people go against what they feel in their hearts because they believe it is a benefit to the child. Not because they are selfish, but because they have been convinced that if they don't do this, they will create problems for the child.

While I agree with you for the most part, i feel that America has a very selfish, "me" oriented culture.

A good example is how many people really beleive they cannot survive without 8 uninterrupted hours of sleep per night. Books convince moms that they will be bad moms if they don't get this kind of sleep. IMO this is "learned" selfishness. Parents are encouraged to be selfish in how they raise children by "experts." It's very sad.

I dunno, just something i think sometimes.


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## Hey Mama! (Dec 27, 2003)

I have read some henious stuff on mainstream bb's but the one I read recently takes the cake. This mom was advising others to use Benadryl combined with cio to make their toddler go to sleep. Her doctor recommended it. When parents are inundated with advise like this from doctors and so called experts, of course they are going to follow it, or feel that they are creating a monster, a clingy, dependent child and you know that is not acceptable in our culture.


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## StarMama (Jun 25, 2002)

OMG! I've been told to use benadryl from *multiple* sources, INCLUDING Orion's Ped too (yeah the lady we go and see only if he is SICK)! I even said to Ped "Isn't there a problem using this every night??" and she said "No."


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## jacksmama (Sep 19, 2003)

And you know what else? It's normal for babies to wake up in the middle of the night and want to be comforted. Yes, there are times after ds wakes up for the bazillionth time and my boobs feel spent and sore - when I want to run like a screaming lunatic from my house. But I think ahead to when he's 35 and he'll be a man and holding him close and kissing him all over his belly and forehead won't be an option. I just soak up every minute of my little boy - every smell and every wave of pure relaxation that he gets from nursing and co-sleeping. I consider 2 wake ups with nursing in one night as sleeping throught the night and my ds is 18 mos old!!!!!!

I know that people are told that CIO is ok - but I think their hearts tell them otherwise but their selfishness overrides their hearts. Why do people think ignoring their children's cries is good? I read a post here on MDC by one mama who lived in Africa for a while and once her baby started really crying and her neighbors came to check up on them because a screaming, crying baby is NOT the norm there.

Lastly, I think when you can let your dc CIO you begin to detatch a bit from their feelings and that type of coldness permeates all areas of your life. My sis CIO's and it makes me sick to my stomach. She pushes her kids to grow up and "deal" with life issues too early on all levels. I think it's because she lacks the spiritual understanding of the tender heart of children.


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## Ms. Frizzle (Jan 9, 2004)

It's pretty sick actually.
I even have a hard time readung some posts from a poster here who claimes to be AP, yet she does CIO.
I come here to get away form that abusive type of parenting!


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## Meli65 (Apr 29, 2002)

One of my friends told me that she NEVER rocked her baby to sleep, not even once, because she was afraid he would never be able to go to sleep any other way.

I don't understand how you can be so cold to your baby, and deny yourself one of the very basic delights of parenting!

Our ped told us to CIO when ds was six months old -- "stuff cotton in your ears" was her advice. Nice -- not only do you ignore your child's pain, but you hide yourself from it. Then she kicked us out for not vaxing


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## Ms. Frizzle (Jan 9, 2004)

HA! reminds me of a women I used to babysit for. She would ask me NOT to hold her DD while I was feeding her the bottle. She didn't want her dd getting used 'to that bad habit'.
Of course I would rock her and hold her as close as I could while feeding her the formucrap. (after I used a face cloth to wash her as best as I could cuase she stank of ciggs so much)
The mother started propping the bottle with K was just 13 weeks old! She would lay her on her side and put a little blankie under the bottle.

She's all proud that her 6 month old has been sleeping through the night since she was 4 months (with CIO)
It's sadistic!


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## Evergreen (Nov 6, 2002)

This thread is making me physically ill. In real life I know no one, I mean No one, who does CIO. Ihang out with plenty of so-called mainstreamers too. I am shocked here.


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

I just had to prevent someone from coming to our AP moms group/playgroup because she Ferberized her infant and thought it was the best thing ever. I'd have had no problems with her coming if she felt bad about it or wanted to learn another way for future kids. But no, she wanted to come and talk about it positively with the other moms. And







she considers herself AP.

I couldn't let her in the group -- once she opened her mouth, I knew the other moms would let her have it. And she still doesn't understand why this group won't work for her, and she calls me judgmental. And her kid, before Ferberization, was sleeping 5-6 straight hours a night, then waking up 3 times or so after that!!

Arg. Yes, it's a sick world.


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## kaylas mama (Nov 13, 2004)

It is AMAZING how rampant and mainstream the CIO approach to night parenting is. It's horrid!!! Unbelievable. I finally had to stop going to the "mainstream" group that my DS and I were going to (in addition to our AP group) because the topic would always-every single week- revert to using the CIO method. One mother listened to her baby cry for three hours a night FOR TWO WEEKS, at the encouragement of her ped because she wasn't getting any sleep when her 4-mo old awoke THREE times a night to bf. Her poor daughter would lay practically lifeless on the floor week after week at these meetings..just staring off into space. SO SAD. Another woman (who's also in my AP group) and I both tried to educate these women...but they just don't get it. Or rather, don't want to.

It's not about getting our beautiful children to adhere to the lifestyle we're used to!!! It's about us living for THEM. When are parents going to realize this???!!!!!


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## PapayaMom (Sep 6, 2004)

as for the benadryl thing even Dr. Sears advocates it. Pretty scary thinking about drugging our babies every night...

Quote:

Benadryl is great for just about any cause of itching: insect bites, bee stings, poison ivy, chicken pox, and allergy. It is also good for the swelling that can sometimes accompany these reactions. Benadryl will also relieve runny nose and sneezing whether from a cold or allergy. Another "off-label" use of Benadryl is sedation. Most parents (myself included) will admit to using it on occasion to help the kids fall asleep.
As for the CIO thing i have seen people defend it as beng AP because you are responding to their need to sleep. makes me sad. I am fortunate to have a nice circle of AP moms close.


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## guerrillamama (Oct 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
Realize that there are mountains of books by doctors, psychololigists and other "experts" of every stripe that say that this is THE one and only answer. That doing anything else is bad FOR YOUR CHILD. That children NEED this. And so forth. Thus, I think a lot of people go against what they feel in their hearts because they believe it is a benefit to the child. Not because they are selfish, but because they have been convinced that if they don't do this, they will create problems for the child.

I just want to echo this. Everyone I know who has suggested I try CIO was a genuinely nice person, a well-meaning, caring parent who loves their child. I think CIO is awful and I will never ever do it and will always tell people there are other options and discourage them from CIO. But I know that msot people who do CIO are not selfish, heartless, cruel, or stupid.

(Slightly OT, but a few minutes ago my dad called me up to tell me he is worried that I'm spoiling ds b/c I "hold him all the time." Now the irony here is that this is exactly how I was raised. My mom had a backpack, not a sling - she wishes now she had had a sling! - but she did carry me around all the time. My dad has conveniently forgotten that, as well as his entire upbringing in Korea, where until the last 10 yrs or so all babies were carried around in podeagis. But my dad has swallowed all that American medical establishment b.s. about not spoiling the child. Ok, but you know what? He's a really good guy, and a good dad, and a good grandpa. And HE spoils my ds, and I"m happy for him to do so! And now I'm way OT, but my point is just that one bad choice does not make someone a bad person or a bad parent. Ok.)


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PapayaMom*
as for the benadryl thing even Dr. Sears advocates it. Pretty scary thinking about drugging our babies every night...

For the last time....

People who have used Benedryl to get kids to sleep don't do it every night!

AAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

Every person, including Dr. Sears, I've ever heard mention this talks about having done it EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE.

I am getting sick of people's knee jerk reactions to this issue. Like if you do something once or twice, it means you would automatically slide into using it every night.

It is simply ridiculous.


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## PapayaMom (Sep 6, 2004)

no Mommyofscmoo you're right I'm sorry that was poorly worded, it was really two seperate thoughts. I was more responding to the previous mention of benadryl on a mainstream bored as a tool to get your child to sleep. Not the occasional use for whatever reason. I think when ped's start recommending it for every day use it does get a little scary though.

Just so you know the only reason I know that it was on Dr. Sears website was because I looked it up prior to traveling wondering if it was a safe thing to help DD with the loooong plane ride. I used it then and realized that because it DID work I am sure that it is overused.


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

Thankfully I can't think of one person IRL that I know that uses CIO (friends or family).

as for the benadryl, sorry I definitly don't agree with *sedation* at all personally uke


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rainbowmoon*

as for the benadryl, sorry I definitly don't agree with *sedation* at all personally uke









Oops, I just read through a few posts I missed, so I realize there was a reference to using it every night. My bad. However, Dr. Sears does not recommend it that way, nor do most sources.

I totally understand that some people are against using substances to sleep, ever, and/or using mind/mood altering substances in general.

I don't feel that way, but I can understand how others might.


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

I use teething tabs and chamomile tea for relaxation after a warm bath if she is in any kind of discomfort. It makes her sleep.


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## Alison (Feb 11, 2004)

I work at a public library. I get parents coming in all the time asking for books about helping their child to sleep. Mostly parents of toddlers. Well, being a librarian, I've read most of those books myself--that's my reaction to a lot of problems, do some research, find a book. I knew about two pages into Ferber that there was no way I could do this with my child. So when I get that question at work, I always try to make sure that I point them towards something like NCSS or Dr. Jay Gordon as well. Not that anything is perfect, but hopefully those titles can balance out the Ferbers of the world. I've made sure that we have copies of all the crunchy humane titles on our branch shelves. The crazy thing is that NONE of the sleep books are ever on the shelves, crunchy/AP or CIO.

All I know is I'm following my instincts, and no way will I ever let my child CIO. Thank goodness have so many AP friends.

Alison


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## Isis (Aug 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jacksmama*
Why, oh why do I EVEN go onto other parenting boards for topics like putting your child to sleep? I went on tonight and one woman wrote that she realized that she had damaged her dd because she rocked her to sleep for the first 7 mos of her life.







But now she just lets her cry it out even though the daughter points and crys to the rocking chair to be rocked.







And she's HAPPY about this!!! And you should have read all the people agreeing that she was right and allowing your baby to slam his head into their crib for and HOUR and a half was the right thing to do. I wanted to ....oooh...I can't even believe .......I don't even know how people can ...................................I'm just speechless .................

















Oh, I know. I read a post where someone let their 2 yo cio until vomit... then made the child clean it up.









Isn't that abuse?







:


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## crunchy_mama (Oct 11, 2004)

It is odd to me someone mentioned Republicans and CIO, as with the people I know it is just the opposite. Most of my friends and family are Republican, or what most here would consider conservative and wouldn't think of CIO, very family oriented and loving people, breastfeeding etc. My dh's family are stronge democrats/ liberal and are very detached from their kids, money before kids, leave them early and often, ff'ing-by choice, ignoring crying etc. So, I guess it just goes to show you can never make blanket assumptions, people always surprise you.

I had to witness CIO yesterday with my sil, she has a 6 mo. old(same age as mine) and just put her in bed with some electronic mobile to stare at, she fussed and cried until she finally feel asleep, although thankfully never got hysterical. I'm sure she thinks I am nuts as I was rocking and nursing my lil' guy to sleep. She makes sure that the daycare doesn't hold her too much so she isn't spoiled.


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## mommyofshmoo (Oct 25, 2004)

Heya,

I was the one who mentioned republicans. I'm a blue state girl born and raised- have only ever lived in cities on the coasts. So I know very few republicans, or cultural conservatives for that matter.

My comment wasn't at all meant to be anti-republican, I just meant to say that AP parenting crosses all kinds of political and idealogical lines. I guess I was a little suprised when I realized that.


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## Kinipela79 (Apr 8, 2003)

we only co slept till Owen was about 5 or 6 months but even when he moved to the bassinet and then his own room I never let him cio. Does it suck to get up 2 or 3 times during the night? Yes. I hate getting woken up...I am such a grump! (just ask my dh! :LOL ) but cio is not an option to me and as soon as I get into his room and see his beautiful little face so trusting that of course mama will come that how can I be grumpy after that? I know a lot of people who have either used cio or plan to when they have kids. It really makes me ill and I am sure that it doesn't make them evil people in the grand scheme of things but cio is just one of those things that I can't budge on.


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## jacksmama (Sep 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Meli65*
Our ped told us to CIO when ds was six months old -- "stuff cotton in your ears" was her advice. Nice -- not only do you ignore your child's pain, but you hide yourself from it. Then she kicked us out for not vaxing









Good Riddance to her!!!!! You don't want a ped like that anyway!


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## jacksmama (Sep 19, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AidensMommie*
Oh, I know. I read a post where someone let their 2 yo cio until vomit... then made the child clean it up.









Isn't that abuse?







:

Yes, it is.




























And you know the scariest part of all this for me? I keep thinking that my ds is going to go to school with these poor kids - and he's going to socialize with them and live in a world full of them as an adult. I see young people on the news full of hate and rage and I think to myself....I wonder if he / she was bf'd and / or nurtured fully if they would still be a criminal or hateful, etc.


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## mamabear&babybear (Dec 20, 2004)

I went to a Superbowl party yesterday and I have never felt so alone. Every mother there used CIO, sposies and store bought babyfood. One mom I talked to in depth said that her ds cried for 5 hours the first night. However, they realized the next night that if they stopped going in to their ds's room every 5 minutes then he would fall asleep after 45 min. or so.














I'm sure my jaw dropped and I couldn't think of anything to say.

On a more positive note I love that I can come here and discuss things with people who swing my way.









By the way I'm sitting here writing this as my 6 month old dd is curled on my chest after I rocked her to sleep.


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## MamaPear (Oct 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AidensMommie*
Oh, I know. I read a post where someone let their 2 yo cio until vomit... then made the child clean it up.









Isn't that abuse?







:























They actually MADE a 2 year old clean up his/her own vomit????? That is beyond abuse!!!!


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## Cian'sMama (Jan 28, 2005)

Argggghhhh! This makes me nuts! Give benadryl every nite? What? Benadryl actaully causes many children (mine included) to become hyperactive rather than sleepy!

Our pediatrician told us that in no way did our 9m.o. son need to wake at 3 am to BF. She told me cio was the best and only method for getting him to sleep all nite. So she said i should put him down awake for both naps and nighttime. She said, "do it now before he can yell, 'mommy'."

We actually did this. For ten days. I am mad and ashamed that i was naiive enough to listen to this advice. At first I was angry at the ped....but now i know that it is my job to parent him and the only manual i have is instinct. I knew it felt wrong, and i should have followed my instinct. Furthermore, it
DID NOT work!!!!!!! He went from napping 2x a day and sleeping 10 hrs at nite, waking 1-3 times during nite, to crying through both naps (about 30 min was my limit) and sleeping maybe 8 hours a nite if we were lucky. He'd cry for about 3 hours a nite. This ten days was the worst of my life. I don't even want to know what it was like for ds.

While i do take the credit for following the advice, i want to stress that it was DOCTOR's advice. I do not understand why you would tell a young first time mom that this is the "only way." What this is is one person's opinion and should be presented a such.
At 11 months my son now sleeps for 2 naps and then from 7-3, bf's then goes back to sleep until 6 or 7. All of you mom's know-this is great!!!
What were we so worried about? AS dh said "I'll get up every nite until he's 12 if he needs me to." We wouldn't let a 10 year old lay in bed crying for an hour. Why a tiny baby?


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## bendmom (Sep 4, 2003)

aidan CIO one night on accident and dh and I almost went to therapy over feeling like such bad parents.

When he was 2 we tried to get him asleep in his room, then when he woke up he would come sleep in our room. One morning we woke up and realized Aidan wasn't with us and ran upstairs. His door had shut and he couldn't open it. His light was on, he had thrown all his toys at the door, and was curled in the fetal position on the top bunk. He couldn't get down by himself, and he had fallen asleep crying and terrified in a pool of urine. We carried him downstairs and promptly got rid of his bed. We now sleep w/our 5 mth old in bed, and Aidan on a mattress on the floor next to us. People look at us like we're crazy, but if we felt that guilty after one night on accident, how bad do parents feel when it's done every night?


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

It always makes me so sad to read things like that ... one of the reasons I don't stray from MDC often!

They are only babies for such a short while, why on earth people start "sleep training" etc like their child is going to need to be rocked forever is beyond me. My little boy is 27 months and slept with me up until about a week ago when he moved into his own room. I knew the time was right, and it was, he went in there happily, with not a single tear or nightwaking.







But I miss laying with him ... I miss when he was a baby and I would gently rock him to sleep. It all felt so good and right.

How do people get so far away from their natural instincts? I can't imagine hearing my child cry for 1 min ... pointing at the rocking chair and crying would break my heart. That poor baby.


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## naturalmother (Jan 22, 2005)

Quote:

I keep thinking that my ds is going to go to school with these poor kids - and he's going to socialize with them and live in a world full of them as an adult. I see young people on the news full of hate and rage and I think to myself....I wonder if he / she was bf'd and / or nurtured fully if they would still be a criminal or hateful, etc.
I couldn't of said it better. I think about this each time I respond to DD. I think I can either go this way and result in a, or I can go this way and result in b. It is hard to choose a when your tired, hungry, frustrated and just want a minutes peace, but I try to think of the bigger picture. Yes this is one more time I really can't be bothered to get up and feed her but this also one more chance I *get* to build my trust with her. I always look at her and try to think of her all grown up - another human being out there in the world with her personality shaped from her life experiences. I think about the type of personality I would like her to have (confident and secure in her decisions and thoughts) and I then I snap out of it, go back into reality and do whatever I have to do to get that.

Quote:

pointing at the rocking chair and crying would break my heart. That poor baby.
Tell me about it.. I was telling DH about this baby and I swear I was about to break down!


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## InochiZo (Aug 17, 2004)

My masochistic tendancies keep me coming back to this thread, but I need to say how sad it is for me and the many many children and mommies who do this. I can't believe that before I knew about AP I would have been total mainstream. Now I can't stand to hear about any child abuse or watch TV shows about kids that were killed/abuse e.g. CSI, SVU, Law and Order. I still watch these except SVU but if they have a show about a kid I have to stop. I feel phyically ill when people talk about this and just leaving a child to cry for hours is unthinkable to me.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

I can really relate to what everyone is saying here, because I frequent a "mainstream" board and a lot of people there used CIO (that phase of the parenting seems to be over now that our little ones are toddlers, mostly, so I don't hear much about it).

However, I do think we need to remember as parents that we are going to disagree and that's ok, and there's no absolute right or wrong to most parenting choices.

Think about it - if they came out with a set of really good studies that showed that CIO was GOOD for your child - I mean studies that were done well, there was more than one of them, in other words, they were really convincing studies - would you do it?

I wouldn't!

And if they came out with that same set of studies showing that spanking/hitting a child makes them better in the long run (in whatever way), I still wouldn't do that either.

That tells me that, for me at least, the decision to do/not do these things has a very real emotional component. My decision to do/not do certain things is reinforced by some data, but at the heart of it, I just feel its wrong to do them.

Parents are just not always going to feel the same way about what is right or wrong.

So, I go to this mainstream board, and I have a different parenting philosophy (as do some of the other people on the board), and I don't apologize for it, but neither do I assume that I'm 100% in the right on any of my parenting decisions.







So it's really not that hard for me to frequent that board, based on that.

Now, just to be clear - I hate the thought of even using CIO, and am 100% against it for my child - I really can't imagine how someone could use that method, unless they were really at the end of their rope. But that's me, and not everyone is going to make the same choice.


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

HI Kristi,

I have to respectfully disagree with your post. I do believe there are "right" and "wrong" ways to parent. My educational background is in biological anthropology and endocrinology (I'm technically still on a Ph.D. track at Harvard). I just finished a pilot project looking at the long term effects of CIO vs cosleeping. It's a small study, but there do appear to be significant differences in the production of cortisol between the two groups. To make a long, technical story somewhat short and extremely generalized, there is a very real possibility that infants who are made to CIO are set up to have a lifetime of greater disposition to: a) relatively poor immune response, b) psychological disorders such as depression c) relatively lower cognitive and memory function.

This, of course, should come as no surprise since EVERY SINGLE study done on nonhuman primates (and certain other mammals) regarding mother-infant separation (and infant "crying," or vocalization due to being forcefully separated from mama -- even for an hour or so) show short and long term negative behavioral and biological effects.

We humans (and most if not all primates) evolved a certain way -- breastfeeding, babywearing, cosleeping, prompt maternal response to infant cries. It should be no surprise that infant biology would be negatively affected by drastic deviation from "natural" parenting.

Of course, pediatricians don't bother to read anything in the nonhuman primate literature...if they did, they would NEVER recommend CIO. Keep in mind pediatricians receive NO training in sleep issues and, IMHO, have absolutely no right to open their mouths and give CIO advice.

One of these days I'll get that paper finished and hopefully published -- my thesis was going to be a much more detailed version of this study -- but I'm about to have my second child, and I am going to stay home with my kids instead of going the daycare route. I hope to write up this study before summer.


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Hi Trish! Hmmm, I don't disagree with your post, in fact I would love to read what you're doing, so I guess I'm not refuting what you say, but I'm adding to it.

Connecting CIO to long-term adverse effects would be very, very, very, difficult, if not impossible. We can connect them to short-term adverse effects, but what kind of news is that? All you have to do is look at the baby to know that they're experiencing all kinds of horrible things - that won't be news to CIO proponents. They have already shown that they are not convinced by the obvious short-term adverse effects (although maybe you could argue that if the info came in a scientific cloak people would be more accepting).

It is obvious to anyone (even a layman like myself) that using CIO disrupts the intended environment for an infant. But we do MANY things that disrupt that environment, and not all of them have adverse consequences. So, I think that alone is not going to convince people.

Lastly, I do not disagree with your studies, I am just saying that I would not use CIO even if there were numerous studies showing that it was better for the baby in one way or another. I think I'm probably not alone in that. So, I'm making an EMOTIONAL decision not to use that technique, just as parents who do use it are making an emotional decision (emotional meaning, not based on science or evidence).

Since it's unlikely we'll be able to connect CIO with long-term adverse affects, I think the most we can hope for is that parents learn about the natural environment that babies were selected for, and try to keep to that as closely as possible with the idea that the environment they were selected for is probably the best environment for them.

Regarding connecting CIO with long-term adverse effects : I assume it's obvious to you as a researcher why this would be difficult/impossible, but for those who don't understand why I say that, the reason it would be so difficult to connect the two is due to the huge number of variables in the equation. You would never be able to hone down the differences in individuals to just CIO. The most I think we could hope for is that CIO would be associated generally with a particular parenting style that has negative consequences.

Trish, just out of curiosity, you state that you feel there are "right and wrong ways to parent". Based on your research, what other things do you agree/disagree with other than CIO? I'm not asking to bait you, I am just genuinely curious since I have done a lot of reading in this area and am truly fascinated by how far from the natural environment for an infant we have come. And, I am curious about what conclusions you have drawn, being exposed to more and possibly better data than me.


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## debm2005 (Feb 9, 2005)

I am so very happy to have found this place today. I cant even start to explain how great this thread is for me and my current situation.

I have a 13 month old son, I co sleep with him and I have to fight for this almost daily as I am told how much harm I am causing him and how he will never be able to separate from me and the list goes on. I have gotten to the point that I just get so angry and that is not me.

I believe they are only small for such a short time and it is fully my responsibility to love and honor my son. He has never been in a playpen. Hardly ever in a swing (maybe 10 times ever) He did use an exercauser but when he was done playing he got taken out. If he needs me then I come to him. I hear all the time how badly I have spoiled him and how I am doing damage to my son. I must add I have 2 other children both raised the same way my first I tried to CIO but I just could not do it. When it came to the age to transfer him to a bed I was told by his dr to close and lock my door. Just leave him outside screaming. So I believed he knew best, I found my little one with a towel curled out outside my door he went to sleep crying that night on a cold hard floor. I let it happen as my husband demanded it was best for him. But the sight of that little boy there when I opened the door broke my heart and I never did that again. So with my 2nd she co-slept and she is a wonderful healthy 7 year old. Now with my 3rd he is a wonderful 13 month old. Yes he loves his mommy and will demand me while being held by others, but what they don't notice is it is when he needs something. If all is fine, not hungry or wet ect he is more than happy to play and be held by others.

However my husband hears daily what harm I am doing and it has caused trouble in our marriage as just a few month ago while being a big baby due to him feeling he was not getting enough evening time with me he blurts out (that boy needs to be in his own bed, not sleeping with you) I was so angry I jumped up and said when you get a PHD in this then come talk to me, otherwise keep it to yourself. Since he will start out by saying do you think we are causing him harm ect.

So this was so refreshing to read this thread and find others whom feel the same as I do.

Thanks so much
Deb


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

Hi KristiMetz,

You've pointed out an important argument -- there are lots of variables that go into shaping the environment. In humans, we cannot control all these variables, nor can we slice open human brains and bodies to take a look at long-term effects of a carefully controlled experiment (for obvious reasons).

But these types of experiments HAVE been done in nonhuman primates. There is no reason to believe the results would be any different in humans. It's much like saying that tobacco smoking can't possibly cause cancer. Well, maybe it doesn't CAUSE cancer, but it certainly increases the risk of one's getting cancer.

The very real problems you point out regarding isolating the variables apply to practically every study on humans out there. However, I do believe one can isolate them to some acceptable level (otherwise there would barely be any data on humans out there). Hence, I again respectfully disagree with you in the sense that I do believe we can connect CIO with long-term negative effects.

Regarding "correct" parenting -- the only two thinks I unabashedly feel this way about are 1) not resorting to CIO methods and 2) breastfeeding.

Now, please -- no flames. I am aware that there are many people who experience difficulties breastfeeding and therefore formula feed instead. God bless them and their efforts. I'm only talking about those who decide they are going to formula feed without even considering breastfeeding. There's just too much data out there showing that breastfeeding is the best way (when one is able, of course). So I don't understand any woman's decision -- right off the bat, without even trying -- to NOT breastfeed. Unless, of course, they don't know the data and are being ill-advised by their friends and potential pediatrician.


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

Trish, you were the nicest and most eloquently put about bfing vs. ffing I've ever seen. god bless YOU.

Katie


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## nichole (Feb 9, 2004)

Deb,

welcome to mdc


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## sahmof2girls (Feb 9, 2005)

My dd sleeps from 10 until 5:30am. Then she wants to eat. I am not bf due to uncontrolable situations but I feel that she sleeps so much better with us in our bed. And my 3 1/2 year old likes sleeping in her bed, But comes and gets into ours every single night. I like the time we all have together. Dh works out of town alot so it is good time in bed. But dh wants to build a room that is all mattress. Both dd's are bed hogs







:
Megan


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## BlueSkyJennifer (Dec 11, 2004)

I belong to a mainstream board and at one point I felt like everyone was talking about CIO all the time and they ALL seemed to do it. I do not agree with CIO and would never do it. Anyway, it bothered me and one day I posted a poll to see just how many did CIO and how many didn't. I was happy to see that it was split about 50/50, because I expected it to be a LOT worse. It just seemed like they were all talking about it all the time, but I guess that the more AP and anti-CIO moms just weren't saying anything and the ones who did do CIO were constantly reaching out to each other sharing experiences and seeking support.


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## Plummeting (Dec 2, 2004)

I also have to respectfully disagree that CIO is just a different style of parenting, rather than wrong. CIO is wrong, it always will be wrong and no amount of saying, "Oh, we just don't parent the same way," will ever make it right. Where do you draw the line between saying something is wrong and saying something is just an alternative choice? I'd say you draw the line at the point that something you're doing is harmful. Even if CIO only caused short term harm, I fail to see how that would make it an acceptable alternative. Saying something is okay because it doesn't cause long term damage would give someone permission to hit an 8 month old so hard it left a bruise, because they wouldn't remember it later and the bruise would go away soon. After all, most adults who beat their children don't believe they're doing anything wrong.

I'm not saying parents who have used CIO are awful parents. They've been seriously misled. However, they are still responsible for their choices and every parent should research their decisions. To not do so is irresponsible and wreckless.


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## Quillian (Mar 1, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ellis Herr*

I do believe there are "right" and "wrong" ways to parent. My educational background is in biological anthropology and endocrinology (I'm technically still on a Ph.D. track at Harvard). I just finished a pilot project looking at the long term effects of CIO vs cosleeping. It's a small study, but there do appear to be significant differences in the production of cortisol between the two groups. To make a long, technical story somewhat short and extremely generalized, there is a very real possibility that infants who are made to CIO are set up to have a lifetime of greater disposition to: a) relatively poor immune response, b) psychological disorders such as depression c) relatively lower cognitive and memory function.

Trish congatulations on your pregnancy







I've been waiting for the outcome of your study and look forward to your completion. We discussed this on a CIO debate board on another site at least a year ago now-hard to believe. Would you be up for dropping over to post your results? I would love to hear more about the study as well is your website updated?

Meg aka Poppy_seed_ on the other cio debate board.


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## crunchy_mama (Oct 11, 2004)

mommyofschmoo, I didn't mean my post to be snarky ie republicans and democrats, so sorry if it came off that way

on the subject..... I really don't think it matters what any study says, people see this as a choice, just as many see that ff'ing and bf'ing are entirely equal, no matter what the facts show. Many people do not trust science at all, or just refuse to believe it. I also frequent a mainstream board- although not lately as it just makes me fume- Someone posted a question- how long do you let your babe CIO- now our babies range from 5-7 mo. old, it wasn't do you CIO, but how long, like everyone does it. You are not allowed to say anything neg. about this, as it is questioning someone's parenting choice. Women talk about how they feel bad that they haven't let their child CIO, as this is ruining their child. Everything falls under well, mommy knows best, and you know your child- you know if they want to eat cereal at 3 mo. etc. etc. So, they use the "mommy instinct" excuse, regardless of any common sense or reasoning. It is so sad to me- people think I am the bad mom- gasp I nurse him to sleep! I don't let him eat what everyone else is!!


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

Crunchy, Thats kind of something thats bugged me.
If my instincts fall in line to this type of parent (Semi-Ap, I don't sling constantly and Dar spends as much time as she likes on the floor or in her jumper) who's to say I am wrong? If someone feels CIO or feeding cereal are what is best and works for their child, do I really have a right to say they are wrong?

I can't see how people do it, but I'm sure a lot of people wonder why I spent the first 3 months of Dar's life slinging her constantly. KWIM?


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

HI Quillan,

Thanks for your well-wishes and support.

I would be fine with dropping by, only after the stats are finished. I must wait for my mother to arrive and help with my 2 year old before I can really make any more progress...you know how it is.

No, my website is not updated, and probably won't be until summer -- I am just too busy being a mom, grad school took second place.

The plan is for the paper to be written up and at least submitted for publication by this summer.

Best,
Trish


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## Quillian (Mar 1, 2003)

Trish,
Thanks for your response







I look forward to your results but I more than understand where your priorities are and the time commitment the completion process will take. Enjoy your new family without interruption as long as you can









Meg


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

Darsmama,

Is it possible for a mother to instinctively use a CIO method? I guess that's where I would take issue with your argument. She might be getting bombarded with this advice from everyone -- family, friends, pediatrician -- and she might be so sleep-deprived she can barely function, so having social approval might make the whole thing tempting. But is it possible that the mother's real instinct is to NOT pick up her crying baby? In my opinion, the asnwer would be an emphatic "no." As a species, we would not have gotten very far in the course of evolution if mother instinct included ignoring a crying baby. Babies cry for all kinds of reasons, and if those reasons were ignored (in a hunter-gatherer environment), then we would have died out long ago.

So, I would guess that a mom might have been misled to believe this was the best thing to do, and take solace in the social pressure/support. But in the moment, while she hears her crying child, can she honestly, deep down, say that this feels right to her? I can't imagine it. I don't pretend to be every mother in the world, so I can't put myself in every else's shoes, so I could of course be wrong ... maybe it DOES feel honestly, instinctively right for some women. But, considering the evidence, that instincts are assumedly built upon millions of years of evolution, etc. etc....I just can't imagine it.

As for not slinging all the time, I don't think anyone would consider you only semi-AP for not slinging 100%. You said your child spent "as much time as she likes" on the floor -- that's the key, isn't it? As much time as she likes. It's not like you put her on the floor, she starts wailing, and you ignore her and go have a glass of wine. It sounds like she's perfectly happy and you're meeting her needs, which don't include being in the sling 100% of the time. See my point?

I think -- and I could be totally wrong here -- that Western culture is absolutely toxic for motherhood. It is so hard to get outside the influences of one's own culture and realize what your own instincts are telling you! I don't think most women have enough confidence in themselves to go against the grain of culture, instead they feel more comfortable conforming and justifying. It's a hard thing, to break out of the popular mold. So are the mainstream moms evil for CIO, cereal, etc.? Of course not -- but I do think they might have a hard time really listening to their instincts and following them...it's easier in general to believe what everyone around you is telling you. That's just human.


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

Darsmama -- I forgot to thank you for your nice comment on my explanation regarding bb vs. ff. You were very nice to have written that!


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## mandalamama (Sep 1, 2004)

i'm also on a mainstream board, in a fairly huge due-date-club, and when someone posts about CIO it's only me and one other mom who oppose it (openly, anyway). a mom will post how successful she was with only one hour of crying per night for a week, the rest will post "yayy for you! keep up the good work!" type replies














i just persistently, respectfully post pertinent info, Dr. Sears and other stuff, and hope i can influence even one mom.

this week it's all talk about how babies need to sleep *12 hours* straight through without waking to eat.







usually i just get ignored when i post my info, but this week they somehow ended up making me look like the stupid one ... because i pick up my daughter every time she cries, they say that later on she won't be able to "soothe herself" ... and because i'm a first-time mom, of course i don't know that, so "just wait, you'll seeeeeee" ad nauseam. well i'm a FOURTH-time mom, just a first-time bio-mom, i was a stepmom before. and worked in daycare. and ran home daycare. and fostered a child. and co-mama'd my step-nieces when their mom was very ill. add to that, i'm not stupid









so i've got a co-sleeping four-month-old who sleeps through the night with one wake-up to eat, lays happliy down for naps and coos herself to sleep, cries if she needs me and gets responded to immediately, otherwise she sucks her thumb and soothes herself to sleep. and i'm the "nutty" one.







:

my guesstimate is, accounting for lurkers, about 80% of mainstream moms who post in online forums use some level of CIO.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

You know what I don't get? Why the heck are the peds giving out the sleeping advice anyway? DS is only 3 1/2 months, I'm really curious if my ped will start advising CIO in a couple of months. It seems to me that peds shouldn't be so concerned about his sleep habits if he's healthy.

Mellybean, don't you love the "first-time mom" comments? I get that all the time. According to my in-laws, that's why ds is not on cereal and why I pick him up so much.


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## catgirl1007 (Feb 9, 2005)

My Ped's office (the CNP there) told me that DD should not wake up to nurse more than 2 x per night when she was only 3 months old. She told me to _ignore_ her if she was getting restless like she wanted to eat.







Then at DD's 4 month appt. we got a sheet of paper that said, "Your baby should be sleeping in his own room by now." Whatever. Reading about all these poor little babies who hysterically cry themselves to sleep makes me so sad. My mom let me CIO when I was 4 months old and I swear to this day that's what caused me to be so clingy to my mom when I was little. Very sad. We co-sleep in the same bed with our DD and will never ever let her CIO.


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## Kitten (Jan 10, 2005)

In my new mother support group, there was a woman last week who proudly reported that her baby had learned to fall asleep by CIO. She had only cried "for two hours" the first night. I like this woman and did not know what to say, but I could tell that there were some other moms around me who were very distressed by this as well. How the heck could anyone let their precious child cry for TWO HOURS without responding. It would KILL me. I am reallly concerned for this child because she is so small and fragile-looking already and now she is being made to waste all this energy by crying. This mom did it because her pediatrician told her she should. This is a four-month-old baby we're talking about here! My aunt took care of her husband (my uncle) by herself at the end of his life (he had Alzheimers) and if she made my helpless uncle cry by himself for two hours she probably would have been charged with abuse. Yet for a baby, this is what you're *supposed* to do. What a sick, sad world we live in.

As for myself and DH, MIL made DH CIO, while my mom rocked me to sleep for at least the first year of my life. Guess which one of us has the sleep problems now? It isn't me.

All I can say is, thank goodness for MDC. It's so good to know there are other moms like me out there.


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## our veggie baby (Jan 31, 2005)

It is indeed sick. I was speaking with my best childhood friend the other day, who just had her first baby about 3 months ago. We were talking about various things and I was sort of gauging her parenting "style"...she lives on the other coast so I am not there to see anything...anyway, we got on CIO and thankfully, she is against it. She told me she and her husband tried it once, I think mostly out of sleep deprivation, being tired, frustrated, feeling helpless because they couldn't soothe her etc....and she said it was horrible, she said she listened to her daughter cry for about 20 minutes and couldn't take it at all and she and her husband decided they would NEVER ONCE do that again (thankfully)---and they even did it in the first place only because it seemed like nothing was soothing her at all....I couldn't even imagine someone doing it with intent, to "train" a child to sleep alone etc....

It's scary...I completely agree with the previous poster who put it so well about it having nothing to do with "parenting styles"... it is one thing not carrying your baby in a sling as much as other moms, if your baby is happy and their needs are being met and they are perfectly content to play on the floor or whatever, then you ARE ap'ing, it is silly to force them in a sling yk? but as the other poster pointed out, what Mother, in reality, can hear her baby cry and NOT have the instinct to pick them up or to soothe them? So if you are going against your instinct and your baby ISN'T content, and their needs AREN'T being met (obviously not if they are screaming bloody murder for like 30 minutes) then that crosses the line (imo) of "different parenting styles" and IS wrong...

just my $.02


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## jacksmama (Sep 19, 2003)

It is wrong. But people are so disconnected from their own spirits these days. All these distractions, cell phones, tv, video games, the pace of life. We don't trust ourselves. My cousin's wife just had a baby. The wife is a smoker and baby was barely 5 lbs at brith and spent the first days of life in NICU, so it's a bit fragile. They take their baby to visit family - he was about 3 or 4 wks old. The mom is holding the baby and puts him down. He starts wailing. Someone says to her, "Oh, you must hold him a lot because he's crying for you." And she said, in the most serious way, "Oh no, I try not to hold him too much. My grandmother told me that I will spoil him if I hold him alot."







I wasn't there as they all live in a diff state. But if I was.....







: ....my first stop would be to grandma's house!







:


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## rileysmommy (Dec 11, 2004)

i am new here, but i am glad i am not alone in the sick pit of my stomach feeling when i read about mother who uses CIO. it makes me feel so sad. yes.. here i sit a 4am becasue my baby has decided its time to have a party. but i just cannot imagine laying him down to just scream and cry.


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## InochiZo (Aug 17, 2004)

I just read a post here on this board telling the virtues of CIO. So even MDC is not immune to CIO. I really can't imagine this being any part of attachment parenting. Not slinging, not co-sleeping, and not gentle discipline can still make an Attached baby but CIO is just so wrong.


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## soccerchic21 (Jan 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Zootiegurl*
How far away so many people have gotten from their natural instincts. How can a mother actually just sit there and listen to their baby cry? This is my first baby and I can't stand to hear him cry for even a minute (most times not even that)!

It just amazes me how normally intelligent and sensitive people can suddenly lose their senses when they have a baby and think that the crying of a baby is just manipulation. Crying is the only form of communication that a baby has for their needs! Modern medicine has really screwed things up with this by trying to "improve" on practices that are millions of years old.


I agree and I feel the same way. When we had DD almost 2 years ago I was totally on the mainstream path before I had her then after she was in my arms CIO and having her sleep away from us just didn't feel like the right thing to do for me or for my husband. I am so glad I went with my instincts no matter how crazy my friends and family think we are.


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## threeforme2005 (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ms. Frizzle*
HA! reminds me of a women I used to babysit for. She would ask me NOT to hold her DD while I was feeding her the bottle. She didn't want her dd getting used 'to that bad habit'.
Of course I would rock her and hold her as close as I could while feeding her the formucrap. (after I used a face cloth to wash her as best as I could cuase she stank of ciggs so much)
The mother started propping the bottle with K was just 13 weeks old! She would lay her on her side and put a little blankie under the bottle.

She's all proud that her 6 month old has been sleeping through the night since she was 4 months (with CIO)
It's sadistic!


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## Alvenchrst (Feb 3, 2003)

I'm pretty sure I'm the only one hear that can say this, but . . I used CIO with DS. We don't anylonger, and will never again with im or future chldren. I don't need to tell you why we won't anymore, you all know that already. There were several influences that took me from totally Babywise to very crunchy AP. The first most obvious is my son, and the second biggest influence was MDC. I just wanted to echo what some of the other posters had to say about others doing it b/c they thought it wa best and they did it out of love and care, and to not be too judgmental.

To be completely blunt on of the reasons I was so hesitant to join the AP crowd was the intense and harsh judgment, my way or the highway mentallity. If you all really care about theose poor babies left to cry it out, don't have bashing parties on some of the threads here! It's a big turn off. Not to say that all are like that, becuase there are so many loving, eloquent mamas here. It's just that you can all get you points across effectively with out humiliating or berating others. I wish that in my journey to the no cio camp that all the mamas would have been as warm, loving, and respectful to me as I know they are to their sweet babies. It may seam to many that we are all just "preaching to the choir" so it doesn't matter how harsh and mean we are, but I lurked here for a long time before my "conversion."

My SIL is currently prego and not very AP, but she has learned so much, and responded so well to some of the AP stuff I've told her, simply because I accept and love her for the parent she already is. I may not agree with everything, and she knows that, but I know my kindness to her only helps the situtation, KWIM?

I apologize if in all my soapbox rantings if I made myslef a hypocrate and was too harsh myself.


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

Alven, you aren't the only one who was at first turned off by some practices because sometimes people are so rude/militant about it. Glad you looked beyond the rudies and discovered the loving mama's...and I'm happy to hear you don't CIO any longer


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