# How important is it to have a 3 year old in a carseat on a plane?



## liliaceae (May 31, 2007)

Because it would be a whole lot easier if he just sat in the seat.


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## melijack1 (Nov 18, 2008)

My 3 year old sat beautifully just in the seat when we flew about 1500 miles in January. He was old enough to understand that he had to sit still and behave, and he did not mess with the seat belt at all. He was great. I was travelling alone with him,2 carryons and my purse, with a layover, and a stroller and I didn't want to juggle a car seat as well, knowing he could be well behaved enough to sit nicely in the seat belt. My sister brought her extra car seat, so we were covered at our destination.


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## JElaineB (Nov 12, 2005)

If he is under 40 lbs. I would not put him in the airline seatbelt only if at all possible. You might look into getting a CARES harness (http://www.kidsflysafe.com) which would be much easier to deal with than a car seat.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

I had to fly with DD1 in just the lap belt because the flight attendant was arguing with me about the Nautilus being FAA approved (it is, she just couldn't read














. It was awful because she kept falling asleep but was so uncomfy. She ended up laying half across my lap but was horribly uncomfy. On the next leg she was in her Nautilus and slept much better.

Safety wise, there's not much risk but comfortwise there's a big difference.


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

My ds has flown fine in the just lap belt since around 3 1/2. We put him in the window seet and he'll sleep fine leaning against the side of the plane with a pillow. He likes it much better because it's easier to use the tray! As long as your 3yo will sit and stay buckled, it should be fine. Especially if it's not a really long flight.


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

If you look at PURE SAFETY, there is no reason at all to have a child in a car seat on the plane. It doesn't matter if the child is 1 month old or 3 years old. All data, statistics, and real life experience show that flying with a child, without a car seat, is the safest thing you can ever do.

It's almost unheard of having a child injured during turbulence and likewise for children surviving accidents purely due to sitting in a seat belt. Very few kids globally sit in car seats on planes, despite this fact and 25 000+ flights daily only in US it's almost unheard of having kids (or adults) inured during turbulence. Adults who are injured almost exclusively have not followed directions and did not use a seat belt when they were supposed to. This is very clear while looking at stats from FAA.

The most important thing to focus on while flying with kids is to protect kids on the ground. The trip to and from the airport are thousands of times less safe than being on the plane.

It's a good idea to bring seats on the plane for some kids to sleep better, stay calmer, and most importantly so that your car seat makes it to your destination in good condition.


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## amma_mama (May 20, 2008)

DD started flying without her carseat since she was about 2.5yo (on translatlantic and other international flights). At first we used the CARES harness, as another PP suggested, but it never really fit her well, so we finally gave it up when she turned 3. While we had a few arguments the first time she flew with just the seatbelt (did not want to wear it), once she knew I meant business she stopped fussing and soon started putting it on herself. With the car seat, it is impossible to use the tray, so there is no place for a child to color or do other activities.

As for sleeping, DD seems to have the knack for sleeping in almost any position. I try to make her as comfortable as possible with multiple pillows and blankets and she just curls up and sleeps.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

My biggest concern is that she will drive you nuts. Kids who are accustomed to a harness tend to turn into little crazed monkies in a lap-belt only.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maedze* 
My biggest concern is that she will drive you nuts. Kids who are accustomed to a harness tend to turn into little crazed monkies in a lap-belt only.

Yep! Next time I fly with the kids I really think I will take all three seats, even though it will be a huge PITA, but if big sis gets to ride without a seat DD2 will pitch a humongous fit, and no way will she sit still for 5 hours in a lap belt


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## liliaceae (May 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Adventuredad* 
If you look at PURE SAFETY, there is no reason at all to have a child in a car seat on the plane. It doesn't matter if the child is 1 month old or 3 years old. All data, statistics, and real life experience show that flying with a child, without a car seat, is the safest thing you can ever do.

Really?? Does everyone else agree with this? My kids will be 3 y/o and 9 mo. old when we fly, and I didn't want to have to deal with 2 carseats. Maybe I should just bring the carseat for the 3 y/o? It would save us $380 if I didn't get a seat for the baby, but I am concerned about turbulence.

Also, we'll need both carseats at our destination, so we'll have to check them if we don't take them on the plane. How much of a risk of damage do you think there is? Could the carseats be damaged enough to be a safety risk without it being noticeable?


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *liliaceae* 
Really?? Does everyone else agree with this? My kids will be 3 y/o and 9 mo. old when we fly, and I didn't want to have to deal with 2 carseats. Maybe I should just bring the carseat for the 3 y/o? It would save us $380 if I didn't get a seat for the baby, but I am concerned about turbulence.

Also, we'll need both carseats at our destination, so we'll have to check them if we don't take them on the plane. How much of a risk of damage do you think there is? Could the carseats be damaged enough to be a safety risk without it being noticeable?

FWIW, I have no issue gate checking car seats in a protective bag. I wouldn't have a problem checking them in a well protected box, but will never go throught he trouble!

Statistically, there is an extremely small chance of ANYONE being injured or killed on a plane. It's one of the safest forms of travel. Safer than driving to your destination with your children properly restrained. So yes, there is a chance you'll get the one flight where something happens. But talking stats, of the top 25 major cacrriers your chance of being ina flight with one fatality on it is 1 in 8.47 million and your chance of dying in a flight is 1 in 13.57 million. Over 100 people die in auto accidents in the US every day. MUCH more likely you'd be killed on the way to the airport then on a plane, even without a seatbelt.


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## liliaceae (May 31, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DahliaRW* 
FWIW, I have no issue gate checking car seats in a protective bag. I wouldn't have a problem checking them in a well protected box, but will never go throught he trouble!

Statistically, there is an extremely small chance of ANYONE being injured or killed on a plane. It's one of the safest forms of travel. Safer than driving to your destination with your children properly restrained. So yes, there is a chance you'll get the one flight where something happens. But talking stats, of the top 25 major cacrriers your chance of being ina flight with one fatality on it is 1 in 8.47 million and your chance of dying in a flight is 1 in 13.57 million. Over 100 people die in auto accidents in the US every day. MUCH more likely you'd be killed on the way to the airport then on a plane, even without a seatbelt.

So considering the US population is 300 million (right?), does that mean you have a 1 in 3 million chance of dying in a car every day?


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

I haven't found stats on per day. Most sites talk about the variables (how safe of a driver you are, what you drive, how often you drive, etc). One site said in a lifetime it's around 1 in 80,000 chance.


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## Thisbirdwillfly (May 10, 2009)

Quote:

Really?? Does everyone else agree with this?
No. My kid always flew in a car seat until he was four. I wouldn't hold my kid in my lap in a car while someone drove the length of a runway going from 0 to 200mph, I'm not going to do it in a plane.


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *liliaceae* 
Really?? Does everyone else agree with this? My kids will be 3 y/o and 9 mo. old when we fly, and I didn't want to have to deal with 2 carseats. Maybe I should just bring the carseat for the 3 y/o? It would save us $380 if I didn't get a seat for the baby, but I am concerned about turbulence.

Also, we'll need both carseats at our destination, so we'll have to check them if we don't take them on the plane. How much of a risk of damage do you think there is? Could the carseats be damaged enough to be a safety risk without it being noticeable?

It's not a question about opinion or what I personally believe. The safety statistics can be found on many websites, like FAA, and wherever you look it's obvious that flying with a child is the safest thing you will ever do.

Again, it's almost unheard of having a child without a car seat on a plane be injured by turbulence. It's also extremely unusual to have adults injured by turbulence. *Almost all cases of injuries can be avoided if adults use seat belts when fasten seat belt light is on.* . You can read more here and here.

Quote:

_Turbulence in the skies over the United States has killed two passengers since 1980 and injured more than 316, plus at least 138 flight attendants, according to the Federal Aviation Administration._
100+ people die each day in US in traffic to compare with something.



_Quote:_

Fifty-five turbulence related accidents were reported during the period 1982-1991, ranging from a maximum of 10 in 1986 to three in 1989. One fatality and 79 serious injuries were reported, ranging from 14 serious injuries in 1986tp four sserious injuries in 1983″ (US Federal Aviation Administration)

Keep in mind there are 25 000+ flights EACH DAY



_Quote:_

"Most of the injuries that occur because of turbulence are preventable if people wear their seat belts," Federal Aviation Administration spokeswoman Alison Duquette said yesterday.

Traveling with car seats is not always easy, this how I do it.. I use special car seat bags, bubble wrap my seats and fill the car seat bags with clothing and diapers for extra protection. I has worked well on 50+ flights but it's of course safer to bring the seats on board. Problem is not all seats can be brought on board and not all airports allow gate checking of seats.


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## TheGirls (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *liliaceae* 
Really?? Does everyone else agree with this? My kids will be 3 y/o and 9 mo. old when we fly, and I didn't want to have to deal with 2 carseats. Maybe I should just bring the carseat for the 3 y/o? It would save us $380 if I didn't get a seat for the baby, but I am concerned about turbulence.

Also, we'll need both carseats at our destination, so we'll have to check them if we don't take them on the plane. How much of a risk of damage do you think there is? Could the carseats be damaged enough to be a safety risk without it being noticeable?


Definitely not everyone agrees on this one. Part of the problem though is that children being injured on airplanes is so extraordinarily rare that there isnt any good data about how much statistical protection over a lap belt or even over just riding in a parents lap.

Personally, I feel that it is probably safer to have a baby in a carseat, but an accident is unlikely enough that I'm willing to take the risk. My daughter is 16 months old and has gone on 3.5 trips (we're on a trip right now) as a lap child. When she's needs her own seat, we may bring her carseat for her own comfort though.

I should note that I am generally a carseat safety fanatic, DD is RF in any car she rides in, and will continue to be RF in her primary car until at least 35 lbs. Hopefully 40-45. But the risk of riding in the car (#1 killer of children) is so much higher than the risk of riding in a plane that I feel car protection is more important.

I am concerned about damage to the carseat if it is checked though, and would try to put it in a padded box or something if you have to check it. We have a seperate carseat (Cosco Scenera) at our destination (DP's family) so we've never had to fly with the seat.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

No, not everyone agree's with Adventure Dad, including the FAA, whose stance is that every child under 4 and 40 should be in an FAA approved child restraint. They don't mandate it for a number of reasons, but it is still their stance.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maedze* 
No, not everyone agree's with Adventure Dad, including the FAA, whose stance is that every child under 4 and 40 should be in an FAA approved child restraint. They don't mandate it for a number of reasons, but it is still their stance.

Well said. The NTSB certainly doesn't agree with him. They have been advocating that children be required to be restrained on airplanes for years. Since they are the ones that investigate airplane crashes, I tend to believe their side.


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## miss_nikki (Jan 21, 2007)

I actually just flew with my 3 kids. I'd gotten a seat for my youngest for the first time. Unfortunately I didn't know about the FAA sticker thing. We've had stickers pulled off that car seat over the years. It's never been a problem before either. We just used that same car seat back in December with no problems. Unfortunately this time the airlines refused to let me use it. I ended up holding him almost the entire time, which wasn't so bad, except I had planned for him to be in his own seat and had PAID for that seat. I personally was not comfortable with him sitting with just the lap belt, but I did let him try it. He kept undoing it or squirming out from it. You might not have that issue with your 3 year old. However, if you do intend to use your car seat, be sure to make sure you have the sticker on the seat. I had to carry ours from one plane to another in Chicago and couldn't even use it. They didn't tell me this when I checked in. I was told by a flight attendant when I tried to get on the first plane with it.


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## caemommy (Apr 16, 2009)

We have flown about every 2 months for the last 5 years with my now 5 yr old and 2.5 yr old. I always bring a carseat. Statistics aside, I have flown so many times in bad turbulence that I wanted my kids fully restrained if we hit that kind. I also figure that the chance of a runway accident happening are more likely than in the air, and better to be restrained. (no stats to back this up, just conversation with a flight attendant and pilot friend). The FA friend did say that she was on a flight where the plane had to be turned around back to the gate, because a toddler was having a screaming melt down and refused to stay buckled in for take off. Those buckles are so easy to get undone, that would also worry me in turbulence, if a 3 yr old just lifted without you seeing it.

There is a problem though with 2 carseats in one row - they would have to go window and middle, because an adult cannot be blocked in by a carseat, even if you are their mother! The only exception I've seen is the Radian, because the seat pan is so shallow, it doesn't stick off the airplane seat at all. It didn't work for me to not be able to easily reach the child at the window, so after my second child was born, I would put the baby at the window, me in middle and older child in CARES harness on aisle. (But when we fly with my husband, we sit two and two so my older son can be in his carseat. At 5, he is too big for the CARES and I told him he could just use the airplane belt. He actually prefers to be harnessed in, and doesn't care that he can't use his tray! He told me "those airplane seat belts are not sturdy enough.") When I could only carry one seat on, I gate checked the other.

I also wanted to add that our rules for the plane are the same as in a car: once the plane starts moving, you have to be buckled in your car seat until the plane stops moving at our destination. Our kids are really comfy in their familiar seats, so it hasn't been a problem. And I have avoided having to do pace up and down the aisles, or crowd the galley with my on-the-move toddler.


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## lisarussell (Jan 24, 2005)

I bring my carseats, but I check them at the gate, I would never dream of trying to install & buckle and manipulate a carseat on the plane, those seats are cramped enough already. I also don't ticket my infants, and we are ALWAYS given empty rows/seats when they're available. no carseat will save a child in a plane crash, and we've never ever ever experiences turbulence that endangered anyone- I have flown with babies a lot in the past 15 yrs- probably more than 20 times. traveling with kids is tricky enough, there's no reason to bother with cumbersome carseats. but I also wouldn't put them through baggage check, I can't imagine watching those guys THROW them on and off the cart.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisarussell* 
but I also wouldn't put them through baggage check, I can't imagine watching those guys THROW them on and off the cart.

Car seats that are checked at the gate are subjected to exactly the same treatment.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caemommy* 
There is a problem though with 2 carseats in one row - they would have to go window and middle, because an adult cannot be blocked in by a carseat, even if you are their mother!

I have pictures of a RF Marathon and a Nautilus next to each other on a plane







They fit great!


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## Sailor (Jun 13, 2006)

I know my baby is still in my womb ... but, I gotta say, I would never consider dragging a car seat onto the plane. That just seems, statistically, unnecessary.

If the plane crashes (worst case), chances are high everyone will die. If the plane has turbulence, chances are good that the lap belt will be more than enough. Plus, if there is turbulence, between my dp and I, I'm sure we can manage to keep a kid in their seat.

But, really, statistically, the chances of turbulence injuring or killing someone are small. Look at the number of flights. Look at the number of injuries. It's negligible.

In my lifetime of flying - I've been flying since age 5, around 10 - 15 flights per year. I have NEVER experienced anything that I would even remotely call dangerous turbulence. The worst was a few bumps for which I didn't even need the lap belt. I've also never seen any kids in car seats on planes.

Beyond that, I always wonder about this: car seats are obviously made for cars. They're not likely to withstand the impact of an airplane crash - even if it just happens on the runway.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sailor* 
I know my baby is still in my womb ... but, I gotta say, I would never consider dragging a car seat onto the plane. That just seems, statistically, unnecessary.

If the plane crashes (worst case), chances are high everyone will die. If the plane has turbulence, chances are good that the lap belt will be more than enough. Plus, if there is turbulence, between my dp and I, I'm sure we can manage to keep a kid in their seat.

But, really, statistically, the chances of turbulence injuring or killing someone are small. Look at the number of flights. Look at the number of injuries. It's negligible.

In my lifetime of flying - I've been flying since age 5, around 10 - 15 flights per year. I have NEVER experienced anything that I would even remotely call dangerous turbulence. The worst was a few bumps for which I didn't even need the lap belt. I've also never seen any kids in car seats on planes.

*Beyond that, I always wonder about this: car seats are obviously made for cars. They're not likely to withstand the impact of an airplane crash - even if it just happens on the runway*.

I agree - from a safety point of view, I think car seats are unlikely to be of much use. However, if your child is accustomed to being restrained in a car seat, it may make the flight more comfortable for the child and easier for the parent.


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

I have to say I agree with Sailor here - before I came to MDC I never would have even considerd hauling a seat onto the plane. It just seems like far more hassle than it would possibly be worth, unless I was like, moving to another state/country, then maybe. But under any other circumstances? And, like here, on the dozens of flights I've been on with dozens of little kids, I have *NEVER* seen a child in a carseat...


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lisarussell* 
I bring my carseats, but I check them at the gate, I would never dream of trying to install & buckle and manipulate a carseat on the plane, those seats are cramped enough already. I also don't ticket my infants, and we are ALWAYS given empty rows/seats when they're available. no carseat will save a child in a plane crash, and we've never ever ever experiences turbulence that endangered anyone- I have flown with babies a lot in the past 15 yrs- probably more than 20 times. traveling with kids is tricky enough, there's no reason to bother with cumbersome carseats. but I also wouldn't put them through baggage check, I can't imagine watching those guys THROW them on and off the cart.


Actually:

1. FAA approved child restraints, even the larger ones, fit very nicely in airline seats with minimal difficulty

2. With the current trend toward stacking airline tickets and lessening the number of overall flights, the chances of getting a freebie empty seat have singificantly declined

3. The 'plane crash' thing is a complete misinterpretation of the facts. The majority of plane crashes happen on the runway and are survivable if the passenger is correctly restrained. Also, child restraints protect a child in turbulence









4. Gate checked seats, while not *as* likely to get damaged, still get broken, thrown around, and mistreated.


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## maritimemum (Aug 19, 2009)

I am just here to comment on the checking of your seats. For heavens sakes if you do put them in something.. we flew cross country last year and they just about destroyed our Britax Marathon.. it was horrible and then they offered me a 100$ credit for the next time we traveled for our "trouble"







.. i swear it looked like someone ran the thing over with the plane


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## prairiemommy (Sep 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Car seats that are checked at the gate are subjected to exactly the same treatment.









Yes. Ask me how I know. We had a Peg Perego Pliko stroller gate checked that came back unuseable due to the handles being cracked off, the whole frame bent and the locking mechanism missing (the thing that keeps it closed). That and it didn't get back to us until 2 days into our vacation.









I do not take our best car seats on vacation because if they do get broken and need to be replaced, the airlines will only give you what they think is a fair price - not what it really costs you to replace it. We only got about half the money we needed to replace our stroller - never mind that they didn't reimburse us at all for the rental stroller like they had originally said they would.

Gate-checking is NO guarantee of better treatment.

ETA: If I knew we were flying to a place where I needed the car seat a lot and really wanted our best one, then I would most definitely use it on the plane. That's the only way I'd trust it to travel.


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maedze* 
No, not everyone agree's with Adventure Dad, including the FAA, whose stance is that every child under 4 and 40 should be in an FAA approved child restraint. They don't mandate it for a number of reasons, but it is still their stance.

Doesn't matter if you agree or not, the evidence is extremely clear. All data, statistics and real life experience, including FAA's own data, clearly show flying with a child is safer than anything else you will ever do.

This is not an opinion or a point of view, it's facts which are very clear. For those who disagree, please provide relevant statistics that shows flying with children is dangerous. If what others are saying is correct, there should be thousands of injuries and many deaths to children each year due to turbulence.

Earth is round but there are still plenty of people who refuse to believe it despite all kinds of evidence. These people will never be convinced

Mandating car seats on planes would be a disaster and far more children would die since many parents would instead use the car. Sad but true. Studies have suggested 4 children's lives would be saved during 10 years if everyone used a car seat. This doesn't not take into account all the parents which would instead use the car leading to many more deaths. Keep in mind the enormous air traffic, 25 000+ flights only in US each day.

To compare, thousands of kids die each year in traffic in US.

Quote:

Car seats that are checked at the gate are subjected to exactly the same treatment.
Not true. Most car seats checked at the gate DOES NOT end up with regular luggage. It's most often hand carried to the front of plane where it's stowed with umbrella strollers etc. When plane lands these items are often hand carried from the front cargo hold and left at the stairs where parents can pick them up. Treatment depends on what airline is used.

Quote:


Beyond that, I always wonder about this: car seats are obviously made for cars. They're not likely to withstand the impact of an airplane crash - even if it just happens on the runway.
Car seats are tested differently for planes. Tested loads are far lower, if I remember correctly they don't exceed 16 G. Nothing will protect you in a severe plane crash. It's extremely rare to have a child die of become seriously injured while rear facing. But there are catastrophic accidents where it doesn't matter what seat you're in, the child has no chance of survival anyway. That's a severe plane crash.

People who are involved in car seat research and know the facts laugh at car seats on planes _if done only for safety._ There are many other good reasons, mainly to make sure seats arrive at destination in good condition and on time. Safety benefits are as close to zero as one can come.


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## caemommy (Apr 16, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
I have pictures of a RF Marathon and a Nautilus next to each other on a plane







They fit great!

Yes, there are probably lots of seats combos that can both _fit_ in the same row, my issue when I had an infant and a toddler and was flying alone, was that if I was sitting on the aisle, I could not physically reach over to the window child, retrieve dropped items, etc. (And neither of my kids would be okay with not being within touching distance of mom) As far as I know, the Radian is the only FAA seat shallow enough to go on the aisle seat without blocking egress for the adult in the middle. I personally wouldn't mind having to scootch around my child's carseat in the event of an evacuation, but the FAA just won't allow a carseat to block an adult. I wish I had known this about the Radian though, I probably would have gotten it when we were in the market for a new seat!


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## milkybean (Mar 19, 2008)

I did the lap-baby thing on a flight when DS was 17 months old and it was pure torture. My arms were shaking by the end of the flight, just from holding him, and it was only from Seattle to San Diego. I dreaded the thought of the trip home, but we couldn't afford to buy a seat for that return flight.

By the next flight he'd aged out of that, and we had him in the carseat until he was 3.5. I have never found it difficult to install a seat on a plane seat, but then, I'm short and fit easily standing up straight under the overhead bin, so it's not a problem. And as long as I haven't overloaded myself with carryons, it wasn't a problem carrying the seat above heads.

I finally stopped when DS was 3.5 and I was traveling alone, I had too many carryons, and the flight was coming from somewhere else and was already packed. The gate agent offered to check it for me at just the right time, and I agreed, and DS did so well that we haven't done the carseat thing again.

But if we have another baby, that baby will be in a carseat on plane seats until I feel that they will stay still and not try to run rampant.

But like I said, by 3.5 he was terrific!


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

I could reach DD by the window just fine.


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## liliaceae (May 31, 2007)

Ok, I think I'll definitely have the baby in a carseat, but I'm still not sure about the toddler because I'm worried about the seat getting damaged. Has anyone gate checked a seat on Delta?


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

I don't know if I've flown Delta, but I've flown MANY airlines with gate checked seats without an issue. I do use a bag, however. But I've watched them load them onto the plane a couple of times (from the window of the plane) and they seemed to handle them gently enough. The only issue I ever had with gate checking was a stroller that was gate checked on United. The way the handle was broken off looked like it got caught on something and the guy yanked it to get it out and it broke. Had it been in a bag I don't think it would have happened. They did give us a $75 voucher and the repair only cost $20, so we did come out ahead!


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

United broke my brand new stroller and didn't give me anything







:


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## caemommy (Apr 16, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
I could reach DD by the window just fine.

No offense was meant. My kids both want me to hold their hands and talk to them thru take-off and landing (and both seem to constantly drop things), so I wouldn't be able to reach them without unbuckling myself.


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## caemommy (Apr 16, 2009)

I don't think any airline has a better rep than others re: gate checking. American lost my gate checked stroller, and United broke the handle off my friend's stroller. It's still a risk to gate check, but probably less of one than w/ regular checked baggage.


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## nighten (Oct 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Thisbirdwillfly* 
No. My kid always flew in a car seat until he was four. I wouldn't hold my kid in my lap in a car while someone drove the length of a runway going from 0 to 200mph, I'm not going to do it in a plane.

I disagree that it's safer for a baby or toddler to be in arms than in a carseat, and the FAA agrees with me.

So do others:

http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/airplanetravel.aspx

If my child requires a carseat for the car, I believe she requires one for a plane. Turbulence is a much bigger concern for safety on an airplane, than a crash is.

The OP was regarding a three-year-old and a carseat. If it were my child, I would definitely use a carseat, since that's what we use in a car.

This is one of those scenarios where I would much rather err on the side of caution than live with a lifetime of regret. It's a personal choice, but to state that the safest place for a BABY is in arms is incorrect.


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## mamatoablessing (Oct 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nighten* 
I disagree that it's safer for a baby or toddler to be in arms than in a carseat, and the FAA agrees with me.

So do others:

http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/airplanetravel.aspx

If my child requires a carseat for the car, I believe she requires one for a plane. Turbulence is a much bigger concern for safety on an airplane, than a crash is.

ETA: I have been on flights where the turbulence was so bad I knew I never would've been able to safely hold my my baby. Turbulence happens ALL the time.
The OP was regarding a three-year-old and a carseat. If it were my child, I would definitely use a carseat, since that's what we use in a car.

This is one of those scenarios where I would much rather err on the side of caution than live with a lifetime of regret. It's a personal choice, but to state that the safest place for a BABY is in arms is incorrect.

Thank you for this post. I am surprised at the number of parents who a) think a car seat doesn't provide safer travel on a plane and b) think it's too much of a hassle.

Yes, my 3yo uses her car seat on the plane. And I think it's a lot easier for all of us when she's properly restrained in her car seat.


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

I don't think it's safer for a baby/child to be in arms over a car seat IN AN AIRPLANE. But, the safety difference flying in arms IN AN AIRPLANE vs. riding in a car seat IN A CAR is such that flyling in arms is safer, statistically. And statistically, flying in a seat vs. in arms is not all that much safer in terms of preventing injury or death. It's marginally safer. Air travel all together is very safe.


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## Thisbirdwillfly (May 10, 2009)

Quote:

no carseat will save a child in a plane crash, and we've never ever ever experiences turbulence that endangered anyone
The first part of that sentence is absolutely wrong. The majority of crashes happend during take off and landing. You're assuming all plane crashes involved plunging out of the sky, they don't. How many people do you think that are injured during turbulence had had it happen to them before? Luck runs out, that's why they are called preventive safety measures.

I parent so that I can live with myself, whatever the outcome. My kid is not a statistic to me. That driving to the airport is far, far more dangerous does not mean that there is no need for a carseat in an airplane.

You all only know me on the internet, but as I've shared before, my husband's Aunt flew with her infant son on her lap and when the plane crashed (the majority made it out alive), her son turned into her airbag. After several decades living life with the intellect of a six month old, he died a few years ago.

Finally, my husband is a pilot and he would never let our infant/toddler fly without being strapped into a car seat and he wishes that was the law.


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## liliaceae (May 31, 2007)

*Thisbirdwillfly*, thank you for sharing your perspective and your story. I am so sorry for your husband's Aunt and son. And I agree with you, no matter how small the chance, I couldn't live with myself if anything happened to my children. I'm going to put them both in their carseats.


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## Kiddoson (Nov 19, 2001)

I have to say, if your infant doesn't have a seat, is therefore a "lap baby" if there is issue or bad turbulance you will be made to put your baby on the floor! There have been accounts of people surviving a crash but walking around looking for their lap baby that was put on the floor. Not my kids. We flew to Portugal when DS was 1 and he definately had his own seat, with a car seat.

Kim


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## Mama Mko (Jul 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kiddoson* 
I have to say, if your infant doesn't have a seat, is therefore a "lap baby" if there is issue or bad turbulance you will be made to put your baby on the floor! There have been accounts of people surviving a crash but walking around looking for their lap baby that was put on the floor. Not my kids. We flew to Portugal when DS was 1 and he definately had his own seat, with a car seat.

Kim

This is not true any longer. This is not current airline procedure. You will not be asked to put your baby on the floor. You will be shown how to brace yourself and your baby.


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## Kiddoson (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *rebeccajo* 
This is not true any longer. This is not current airline procedure. You will not be asked to put your baby on the floor. You will be shown how to brace yourself and your baby.

good to hear that, but the above post of the baby being an airbag is a huge issue for me. I know it's expensive and odds are things will be fine but boy, if they're not........
Kim


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## heidirk (Oct 19, 2007)

nm.


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## WhaleinGaloshes (Oct 9, 2006)

I agree that flying is very safe. I wanted to post little summaries of four relevant advisory bodies in the industry, FWIW to anyone reading since the question was asked:

The FAA recommendation:
http://www.faa.gov/passengers/fly_children/crs/

Quote:

"Did you know the safest place for your little one during turbulence or an emergency is in an approved child restraint system (CRS) or device, not on your lap?

"The FAA strongly urges parents and guardians to secure children in an appropriate restraint based on weight and size. Keeping a child in a CRS or device during the flight is the smart and right thing to do."
The AAP recommendation:
http://aappolicy.aappublications.org...ics;108/5/1218

Quote:

"Preventable injuries and deaths have occurred in children younger than 2 years who were unrestrained in aircraft during survivable crashes and conditions of turbulence. The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends a mandatory federal requirement for restraint use for children on aircraft. The Academy further recommends that parents ensure that a seat is available for all children during aircraft transport and follow current recommendations for restraint use for all children."
The NTSB recommendation:
http://www.ntsb.gov/recs/letters/1990/a90_78_79.pdf

Quote:

"The Safety Board believes that, in addition to the increased risk of injury or death, unrestrained occupants jeopardize the safety of other passengers....

"...[As early as January 1, 1981] the FAA recognized the benefits of child safety seats and encouraged their use on board aircraft....

"...The Safety Board believes that the use of child safety seats should be required for children below the weight of 40 pounds and under the height of 40 inches...Infants and small children should be afforded equal or greater protection from death and injury during crash impacts and turbulence as afforded other persons on board commercial and general aviation aircraft...."
The Association of Flight Attendants recommendation:
http://www.afanet.org/Legislative/default.asp?id=5

Quote:

"For over 15 years, AFA has actively supported the use of mandatory child restraint seats for children under two on aircraft. Flight attendants have been joined by carriers and consumer groups in calling for the use of child restraint seats...

"Too many unrestrained children have been needlessly killed during crashes or injured during turbulence or emergency landings. It is time to provide children, under two yearsof age, the same protections as all other passengers. AFA will continue working to pass legislation that mandates the use of child restraint seats on aircraft."
My own opinion is that, economics aside, it makes no sense to have children less restrained than adults. The flight attendants strap themselves into rear-facing 5-point harnesses for take off and landing. I do understand needing to make decisions based on the real world cost of travel.


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## Sailor (Jun 13, 2006)

I gotta say, as a frequent flyer, I really hope they never make it mandatory for car seats on planes. I'm quite content with having it optional - there's no reason to make things mandatory based on such a tiny chance of danger.

Every passenger in the airplane is held by a lap belt. If safety during turbulence was really SUCH an issue, then EVERYONE would be strapped in with a belt that went from the shoulder down.

But, they're not.

Because the chances of anything happening are a lot less than any other (or most other) risks out there.

I just can't bring myself to that level of concern with safety. I mean, I am going to be flying with my child anywhere from 8 to 10 times per year. Dragging a car seat onto the plane is out of the question for me. I commend those of you who do drag those seats onto airplanes. But, if they made that mandatory ... I think I'd need to find a wealthier dp who had his own private jet, lol.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sailor* 
Every passenger in the airplane is held by a lap belt. If safety during turbulence was really SUCH an issue, then EVERYONE would be strapped in with a belt that went from the shoulder down.

Not really--a shoulder belt prevents the upper body from moving; the lap belt is what holds you physically into a seat. Small airplanes do have lap/shoulder belts all around, and some have 4 pt harnesses.


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nighten* 
I disagree that it's safer for a baby or toddler to be in arms than in a carseat, and the FAA agrees with me.

So do others:

http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/airplanetravel.aspx

If my child requires a carseat for the car, I believe she requires one for a plane. Turbulence is a much bigger concern for safety on an airplane, than a crash is.

The OP was regarding a three-year-old and a carseat. If it were my child, I would definitely use a carseat, since that's what we use in a car.

This is one of those scenarios where I would much rather err on the side of caution than live with a lifetime of regret. It's a personal choice, but to state that the safest place for a BABY is in arms is incorrect.

As far as I know no one has ever said it's SAFER to have a baby in a lap. It isn't. A car seat is probably safer. The issue is that this doesn't matter since there are close to zero injuries or fatalities to start with. It's like trying to protect your child against something which is not dangerous.

It's not that a crash or incident with a plane is not dangerous. What's important is that the occurrence is so rare. It's nothing like safety in traffic.

Comparing riding in a car with a baby and on a plane are completely irrelevant. These two situations have almost nothing in common. Impact forces, occurrence, risk, potential injuries are all completely different. It's another world.

It's true that a baby/toddler CAN be injured on a plane. Data from FAA and others show that it almost never happens. We need to protect out children from things which are dangerous. Flying with a child doesn't even make the top 500 list regarding in juries or fatalities. Traffic is the number one killer of children in United States which is why car seat on the plane and in the car are not valid comparisons.

25 kids were killed in 2005 (or was it 2006?) by a falling television set in US. Zero kids, or extremely close to zero, kids die each year from turbulence in the air despite 25 000+ flights each day and also the fact that at least 99% of parents fly without a car seat.

We should protect our kids from dangerous situations, flying just isn't dangerous with children which FAA show themselves very clearly with their data. Flying with a child might appear to be dangerous but it isn't. There is no data which suggest it's nothing but the safest thing we can ever do with our kids.

Almsot zero children are injured by turbulence while thousands are killed each year on roads.

Quote:

I have to say, if your infant doesn't have a seat, is therefore a "lap baby" if there is issue or bad turbulance you will be made to put your baby on the floor!
THis is not true. Many airlines today prohibit you from having your baby on the floor (like sleeping etc.). In an emergency that child stays in the lap/car seat


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

I worked for two airlines and one of them required lap babies to be placed on the floor. As far as I know (I'll try to check) this airline considers this the safest policy based on crashes they've had. If your child is not in a restraint, there are few safe options as to what to do with them.

There ARE children who have died in survivable crashes who could have lived if they had been in a car seat. Why is this not splashed all over the press? Tact and the possiblity of being sued. I'm sure you were suffering the loss of a small loved one in your family, you do NOT want the fact that your niece would have survived if your sister had brought the car seat on board.

Remember today that most people SURVIVE air crashes than die in them. Statistics are on your side and it's the little details, like paying attention to the safety demo and knowing where your exits are that could mean the difference between life and death.

Yes, there are actually a lot of families who are off-loaded every year because they couldn't control their child on taxi. The FAA is strict about this. If ONE passenger is up, we can't move. I once called the captain and had an entire 747 stop on the runway to let a very desperate 5 year old girl go to the lav.

Message to Sailor, "dragging" the car seat is NOT a big deal. I manage it with a metal luggage cart, flying between Europe and California about twice a year, with three closely spaced children NO PROBLEM. I do only bring one seat (parents have seats in California for the two older to use). In fact, it's _easier_ since I throw all the carry-on's with the car seat and I don't have to lug the backpack on my back all the time.


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## babymommy2 (May 14, 2009)

I think it is definatly safer with a car seat. There was a crash in western canada a couple of years ago all over the media where a small private plane crashed and the dada nd grandfather dies, the only survivor was the toddler in the car seat.

I've flown many times with babies/toddlers and either they were in my lap or in the lap belt, partly due to cost, and partly due to the fact that once they have to have their own seat, it is not realistic that they are going to stay stapped into the car seat the whole time anyway on a 12 hour flight, with only bathroom breaks. it is so uncomfortable to be strapped in properly for that length of time. I can hardly stand the flight and I am not a wiggly 2 year old. The chances of injury are so low, but I do worry the whole time.


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## WhaleinGaloshes (Oct 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sailor* 

Every passenger in the airplane is held by a lap belt.

Every passenger except for babies under age two, which is what is so incongruous; the most vulnerable on the flight are the least restrained. Don't get me wrong, I understand the real world factors and reasons why, but still. It's not for the safety of the baby that it's like that.


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## Eclipsepearl (May 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *babymommy2* 
I think it is definatly safer with a car seat. There was a crash in western canada a couple of years ago all over the media where a small private plane crashed and the dada nd grandfather dies, the only survivor was the toddler in the car seat.

I've flown many times with babies/toddlers and either they were in my lap or in the lap belt, partly due to cost, and partly due to the fact that once they have to have their own seat, it is not realistic that they are going to stay stapped into the car seat the whole time anyway on a 12 hour flight, with only bathroom breaks. it is so uncomfortable to be strapped in properly for that length of time. I can hardly stand the flight and I am not a wiggly 2 year old. The chances of injury are so low, but I do worry the whole time.

I remember that crash! It was a small plane and everyone was killed but the toddler.

The only times the child MUST be strapped in is on take-off, landing and turbulence. You don't have to force them to stay strapped in the whole time. This is not a valid reason for not bringing a car seat. They are still safer in the seat and I had very active toddlers who still spent a lot of time walking the aisles or in my lap.

It's also really nice to be able to get up and go to the bathroom when your LO is strapped into his seat without the worry that turbulence could hit. I usually fly transatlantics alone so this is a g-dsend.

It's not realistic to keep a toddler in a seat for 12 hours but you don't have to!


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## Adventuredad (Apr 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WhaleinGaloshes* 
Every passenger except for babies under age two, which is what is so incongruous; the most vulnerable on the flight are the least restrained. Don't get me wrong, I understand the real world factors and reasons why, but still. It's not for the safety of the baby that it's like that.

That's true in US but it's not true in other parts of the world were a lap belt for kids if often used.

Quote:

I think it is definatly safer with a car seat.
THis is likely to be true but the issue is that despite almost no one using car seats on planes there are virtually no injuries due to turbulence and finding a child saved PURELY by using a car seat on a plane is almost impossible to find.

Using a car seat on a plan can make sense for many reasons (convenience, sleeping, calmer kids, car seat making it on time and in good condition at destination, etc.) but pure safety is not one of them. This is nicely proven by stats by FAA themselves.

The main goal when flying should be to protect your loved little one(s) at the ground at your destination since being in a cars is thousands of times more dangerous than flying with a child.


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## Carma (Feb 10, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WhaleinGaloshes* 
Every passenger except for babies under age two, which is what is so incongruous; the most vulnerable on the flight are the least restrained. Don't get me wrong, I understand the real world factors and reasons why, but still. It's not for the safety of the baby that it's like that.

When I flew with KLM to Europe I got an extra belt that I needed to attach to my belt to hold my lapchild.
I have also held my lapbabies in a babycarrier during flight, but they did not allow that during take-off and landing.

Carma


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

We fly 1-2x a year and I've never had the child in a car seat on the plane. She is 6 now. It's not important to me, but everyone needs to make their own decision about it.

I've usually checked a car seat with the baggage. They give you a huge plastic bag and I wrap it in that and there was never a problem. Once they didn't wrap it in the bag and we lost this extra pillow that came with the car seat. Otherwise, no problems.


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## leighi123 (Nov 14, 2007)

I've been on over 200 flights in my life (and Im 23), and my dad flies 4-10 times a MONTH. Between us, there has NEVER been turbulance that I'd worry about a under-2 lap child getting hurt (its not hard to hold onto a baby in turbulance as long as you are awake!). Ds has always been a lap child on planes, we put his bucket seat in the overhead bin (snugrides fit!).

BUT for a child over 2 yrs old, that you have to buy a seat for anyways, I dont see why you wouldnt bring their carseat... It is safer than the lap belt things, although if the plane goes down, its not like that will make a huge difference. But it is much more comfortable for the child (and for you b/c you dont have an uncomfortable child climbing all over you),

AND my biggest concern would be what do you do with the carseat if you dont have it on the plane? I would NEVER check it into the main hold - I've seen how my suitcase comes back and I've seen the airport guys chuck stuff around! Plus I've had my suitcase sent to Shanghai before (on a trip from Hong Kong to CA). And if you gate check it, you've already carried it through the airport anyway, why not just put it on the plane too? Saves you from having to wrap it up and worry about it! (my carseat was put on the WRONG PLANE when we had a connecting flight when I gate checked it one time! I was SOOO MAD, lucky for me that plane hadn't left the gate yet, they held everything up and went and found it for me!

Its easy to carry it around if you get one of those $10 wheel cart things from walmart. I would bring the carseat on the plane for sure.


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## mamatoablessing (Oct 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *leighi123* 
I've been on over 200 flights in my life (and Im 23), and my dad flies 4-10 times a MONTH. Between us, there has NEVER been turbulance that I'd worry about a under-2 lap child getting hurt (its not hard to hold onto a baby in turbulance as long as you are awake!).

I absolutely have been on flights with such severe turbulence, I wouldn't have trusted myself to be holding my baby. Several actually. I mean, this turbulence was forcing me up out of my seat, despite having the seatbelt as tight as it would go. I was also on a flight that had such a rough landing, the overhead bins opened and emptied into the asile and people's heads were slammed into the seats in front of them. However, I have also flown a lot; before kids I was flying 50+ roundtrips a year. But the turbulence and bad landings can and do happen.


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## LeslieB (Feb 17, 2006)

I use the CARES harness. I would never fly without it until my son is much older. I've baggage-checked the carseat in a bag many times. The bag has holes, but the carseat has never seen any damage. I guess we've been lucky in that regard.


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## lisarussell (Jan 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Car seats that are checked at the gate are subjected to exactly the same treatment.









Nope- you can see them wheel it down and put it on a cart, then into the compartment. They're not inside throwing them around. Sometimes, when her carseat was the only thing checked at the gate, they just pulled it in and put it in an overhead compartment


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## Carma (Feb 10, 2006)

It can also be rough at the gate checkin. We had a stroller checked in at the gate, I could not use it anymore when we arrived. This was also the only time I was traveling alone :-| not cool. I could still ride it on 1 of the 4 wheels. Luckely my dad picked us up and he could bend it a bit into shape (the guys from the plane couldn't







).

Carma


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