# breech baby that won't turn?



## amjs (Oct 23, 2005)

i'm curious if anyone has done all they could do to turn their breech baby and it still wouldn't turn? and if so, do you have any conclusions (or guesses) as to why the baby didn't turn?

i'm in my 36th week and my baby is breech--for the past few days i've done everything i've ever heard of to try to turn this baby (and i'm not giving up yet) but i am a bit discouraged because while either one or both feet moved down, i can't get this baby's head to change position--even with two versions from my midwife.


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## MamaTaraX (Oct 5, 2004)

I beleive that babies know how they need to be. And sometimes they need to be breech. And they don't need any help or turning, they just need to be respected for knowing what they know. Perhaps their cord is funky. Perhaps they know that they will have an easier exodus if they are in a certain position. I beleive that my babies know how they need to lie in utero and I don't mess with it too much. I encourage proper positioning but I can tell you from experience that they will go where they want, when they want, and there is little you cna do about it. I even beleive that turning them sometimes can lead to problems.

Unfortunately we live in a society hellbent on surgical delivery for breech babies. Rather than teaching the normalcy of breech birth and how to attend them, our medical schools teach that they should be cut out. It's sad, really.

Namaste, Tara


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## kerikadi (Nov 22, 2001)

Well at 36 weeks your baby has plenty of time to turn








When you say that you have done "everything" what do you mean?
Have you tried swimming? Chiropractics? Accupuncture? Laying on your back with your head below your feet?

I would start with regular Chiropractic visits with a chiropractor certified in the Webster technique. Going at least 3 times a week would be best. At 38 weeks I would start with accupuncture. For *me* if the baby was still breech I would think that is the way the baby really wants to be and plan another homebirth with a midwife that is not afraid of breech.

Good luck!
Keri


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## lovebugmama (May 23, 2003)

Moxibustion is another option that I have heard has quite a good success rate. You may be able to find an accupressure or accupuncturist that can perform this on you. Good luck!

BTW, I also believe that a persistent breech stays that way because for some reason it needs to (cord position, etc.).


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## erin_brycesmom (Nov 5, 2005)

You need to try Webster through a chiro. It has a high success rate and no risks. You may need to try it several times. I started at 37 weeks when my ds was breech. check out www.icpa4kids.com to find someone who is certified in your area. A few days isn't enough time to try everything, you'll get there mama









~Erin


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## GatorNNP (May 17, 2004)

I had a breech baby and found out at 41+ weeks. I can say I tried many things. I would have to say that the child was large (8-12oz) and he is also a very mellow fellow (the annoy the baby into moving tricks didn't work).

I suspect that he just happened to like a certain position, and I had fairly tight abd muscles and he got big and didn't turn in time and then sort of got stuck and kept on getting bigger. He would not move because I think there was not enough room for him to turn that late in the game. He would get part of the way moved but his head just wouldn't go below the navel area, I think it was getting stuck on the pelvic bone crest. If I had more time I may have contacted the "farm".

I opted for the c/sec since I was concerned that he wouldn't turn, and he was double footling breech for which the chance of a cord falling through is higher.

My second baby was head down but always carried a little crooked with her back off to one side, but she straightened out when I went into labor. I was able to have a good size baby the 2nd time so I don't think DS was too big to be birthed vag. Had I been more aware of all the vbac issues I may have been more adamant about finding a dr to do a breech.


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## colobus237 (Feb 2, 2004)

With ds1 I found out he was breech at 34 weeks and tried chiropractic, moxibustion, breech tilt, swimming, underwater headstands, visualization, external version. The local acupuncturist who once did acupuncture for breech babies had stopped doing so for some reason. The external version was a little hairy because he got about halfway around and then heartrate dropped REALLY low, so we had to let him go back. I believe he had the cord wrapped around him in some way that wouldn't allow him to turn. I got a referral to a high-risk OB known for his success in turning breeches, but he felt I had a low AFI and a big baby and wouldn't do another attempt for me.
I investigated options for a vaginal birth, but I failed even "midwifery" type criteria for vaginal breech, and the best information I had suggested that a cesarean would be safer for the baby, so I had one when I went into labor at 41 weeks.


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## Leilalu (May 29, 2004)

http://www.gentlebirth.org/archives/bicorn.html

dd was a stubborn breech. I had a version at 39 weeks, by a very good OB, and it was successful until I took the homeade girdle off. They think I may just be shaped differently. Ds had more room, and was head down.
But I seriously tried everything. The feet above your head thing?NOT fun at 44 weeks. I don't suggest it!!!Not saying you'll go that long...... But you still have time.


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## lrlittle (Nov 11, 2005)

amjs said:


> i'm curious if anyone has done all they could do to turn their breech baby and it still wouldn't turn? and if so, do you have any conclusions (or guesses) as to why the baby didn't turn?
> QUOTE]
> 
> Have I lost some sleep over this!! I tried everything I knew of and ds never turned. Unfortunately I didn't find out until 37+ weeks, though.
> ...


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## Virginia Mom (Feb 17, 2006)

Definitely try a chiro who is trained in the Webster technique .....adn there is one other techinique as well............Also, if there is a certified Hypnotherapist near you, that will sometimes work.........

If you are in Virginia (spec. near Prince William County I can suggest a good chiro and good hypnotherapist)

Good Luck


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

sometimes babies won't turn because of a short cord, cord around their neck or body, a true knot in the cord or the position of placenta.

or something else might be going on.

things to try (i don't know what you have tried):

talking to the baby
going swimming and floating for a long period of time.
elevating your feet above your head until baby drops into the top of the uterus and then you can slowly, oh so slowly turn rightside up again and see if baby has come out of the pelvis and then has room to turn over.
homeopathic pulsatilla
the webster technique
reboozo wrapping of the belly to encourage baby to not settle in the pelvis. (look this up online, i don't have much experiecne with this)

is this your first? does the baby seem small to your MW? all kinds of stuff can be going on that is why they do external versions in the hospital, because they can be dangerous. if you try everything and baby still doesn't turn, then i would say that baby is where he/she needs to be and let it go.


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## amjs (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybeedreams* 
is this your first? does the baby seem small to your MW? all kinds of stuff can be going on that is why they do external versions in the hospital, because they can be dangerous. if you try everything and baby still doesn't turn, then i would say that baby is where he/she needs to be and let it go.

yes this is my first. the baby is actually big. ~8 lbs at 37 weeks. i've tried everything listed except the hypnosis and the rebozo--even the ECV didn't make the baby budge one bit. so i'm pretty much at the point where i'm trying to accept that the baby knows he/she's doing even if this isn't the way i wanted the baby to come out.

thanks to everyone for their replies. i appreciated reading other's experiences and suggestions.


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## maxmama (May 5, 2006)

My first would not turn, despite moxibustion, chiro, position changes, breech tilt, somersaults in water -- anything and everything I could find, we tried. We tried an external version twice.

When he was born, he was diagnosed with congenital hip dysplasia, which is more common among breech babies. What isn't clear is the relationship: are some breech babies breech because they have CHD, or do they have CHD because they're breech?

I currently have my second consecutive breech. At 37 weeks, she's much smaller than her brother and I'm holding out hope for a successful version Wednesday. But it's been very hard to accept that I may not have the VBAC I have otherwise struggled to get (long story -- insulin-dependent GDM, Kell positive, history of severe PE, and have convinced my OB to let me go post dates -- all of which will be pointless if I can't get her turned).

Some babies just don't turn, despite everyone's best efforts. What I find frustrating are people who say that the babies aren't turning because of a subconscious need for a breech on the part of the mom, or because she just didn't put enough energy into getting the baby turned.


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## erin_brycesmom (Nov 5, 2005)

amjs - have you been getting webster done three times a week? My baby was 9 and half lbs and Webster worked for me. ALthough it did take several times to get him to stay head down. Also the weight is just an estimate and we all know how wrong they often are.


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

dn't give up, keep trying everything, esp the webster technique and the rebozo. keep taking the pulsitilla. (though i wouldn't do any more versions)

the weight estimates are notoriously off. right after my son was born the midwife came to see me in OR scrubs and said she had just come from a section where the baby was breech and they kept telling mom the baby was 9 pounds and she turned out to be 6 wehn she was born. the mw was convinced that the baby would have turned with labor, but since she didn't "do" breech babies at home (knowingly), a section it was for mom.... after they scared her with the 9 pound thing.

sometimes a baby who's head is not at station zero when mom goes into labor will turn with a few good contractions. so i might not schedule a c-section, but instead wait until labor starts. (there is more benefit for the baby that way anyway!)


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## Scarlet's Mom (Aug 3, 2006)

Hi mama-to-be. YOur story was just about exactly my story a year ago. I did everything I could think of and Scarlet just didn't want to turn. I do want to say that at 36 weeks you may have plenty of time. I had planned for a homebirth and in the end resigned myself to a cesarean birth. Scarlet had the chord wrapped around her neck twice. After she was born my midwives met her and commented on how calm and at peace she was and that it must have been the birth that she needed. they mentioned that babies born from unnecessary c/s were often agitated. I wish for you the birth that you most want. I would write more but this is still a hard topic for me.


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## amjs (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *erin_brycesmom* 
amjs - have you been getting webster done three times a week? My baby was 9 and half lbs and Webster worked for me. ALthough it did take several times to get him to stay head down. Also the weight is just an estimate and we all know how wrong they often are.


sure have, but i only needed adjustments the first two times and she said i wasn't very tight in either place. the next two times i went she said i didn't need the adjustment...i'm going back to be checked again but i don't know if she feels there's much she can do for me at this point.


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## amjs (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *honeybeedreams* 
dn't give up, keep trying everything, esp the webster technique and the rebozo. keep taking the pulsitilla. (though i wouldn't do any more versions)


the only info i found on the pulsatilla said to use it for one day. i think the directions were one pill every two hours--so it's ok to try it again? do you know what the dosing would be?


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## Cutie Patootie (Feb 29, 2004)

Please do not put any weight...no pun intended







...on your babies estimated weight. My ob wanted to schedule a c-section saying my baby was already huuuuuge, nearly 10lbs and ds came out vaginally at 7.11







Thank goodness we ran from there to find an ob with a brain.







: Your body was made to birth your baby.







...and babies size rarely rarely matters.

Have you looked into the *Bagnell* technique? It is the newest chiropractic technique and I believe only 5% of babies don't turn, and that is due to cord issues etc. Basically the babies who are not supposed to turn don't turn. 36 weeks is still early. Your baby could be "cooking" for another 6 weeks. Some babies also turn last minute, literally when mom is in labor. Work on talking to your baby and telling him/her that they know best what they need and that it is okay to turn or stay just the way he is.

http://www.pregnancychiropractic.com/FindaDoctor.html
http://www.todayschiropractic.com/ar....analysis.html
http://www.drbagnell.com/Moms-toBe.html


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## amjs (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maxmama* 
I currently have my second consecutive breech. At 37 weeks, she's much smaller than her brother and I'm holding out hope for a successful version Wednesday. But it's been very hard to accept that I may not have the VBAC I have otherwise struggled to get (long story -- insulin-dependent GDM, Kell positive, history of severe PE, and have convinced my OB to let me go post dates -- all of which will be pointless if I can't get her turned).

i'll be thinking of you two on wednesday and hoping for a successful turn!


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## maxmama (May 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amjs* 
i'll be thinking of you two on wednesday and hoping for a successful turn!

Thanks -- I have a good shot at it, with a small baby, lots of fluid and a big ol' multip uterus. The OB I really wanted to do the version jsut retired, which is the only thing that's bumming me out right now (he was about 800 years old and had incredible hand skills -- both for versions and for births).


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## amjs (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cutie Patootie* 
Please do not put any weight...no pun intended







...on your babies estimated weight.

any idea on the general consensus on weight estimate by palpitation?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cutie Patootie* 
Have you looked into the *Bagnell* technique?

i had not heard of this one. i'm going to take the info to my chiropractor and see if she will give it a shot. thanks!


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## erin_brycesmom (Nov 5, 2005)

Quote:

sure have, but i only needed adjustments the first two times and she said i wasn't very tight in either place. the next two times i went she said i didn't need the adjustment...i'm going back to be checked again but i don't know if she feels there's much she can do for me at this point.
hmm, doesn't sound like she knows what she is doing. The adjustment to your spine has nothing to do with being tight. Is she talking about the ligaments? Seems like she would still do the spinal adjustments. I only ever had ligament tightness on one side but stretching that wasn't something necessary to perform Webster. It is my understanding that the spinal adjustment is the main deal. I would see a different chiro. I personally called every certified chiro within an hour+ from me and discussed their work with them and ended up driving past the ones close to me (I have one webster chiro literally 1 minute from my house) and drove an hour through a busy often conjested tunnel to go to a chiro who had the most knowledge, experience and the highest personal success rate.


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## erin_brycesmom (Nov 5, 2005)

Quote:

any idea on the general consensus on weight estimate by palpitation?
I was reading an article about this recently, I'll see if I can dig it up. Purely anecdotal but my first was estimated by palpitation the day before I gave birth and they were 2 lbs off. Not to scare you but it was in the opposite direction, lol.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

I believe babies are breech for a reason and if you try it all and they are still breech you need to listen to your care provider, your body, and your baby to figure out why. I had a uterine deformity I was unaware of. I let them attempt a ECV that failed and landed me in the OR with an emergency csection that was horrible. Had I just went with a planned csection, rather than try the ECV because I wanted a vaginal birth I would have not nearly lost my life. I listened to my wants and my desires, over my baby saying "hey woman, I am not coming out that way". I've had two wonderful csections since then and my birth plan can be found at the top of this forum.

FYI, my baby was a transverse presentation.

Kim


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## Cutie Patootie (Feb 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *erin_brycesmom* 
hmm, doesn't sound like she knows what she is doing. The adjustment to your spine has nothing to do with being tight. Is she talking about the ligaments? Seems like she would still do the spinal adjustments. I only ever had ligament tightness on one side but stretching that wasn't something necessary to perform Webster. It is my understanding that the spinal adjustment is the main deal. I would see a different chiro. I personally called every certified chiro within an hour+ from me and discussed their work with them and ended up driving past the ones close to me (I have one webster chiro literally 1 minute from my house) and drove an hour through a busy often conjested tunnel to go to a chiro who had the most knowledge, experience and the highest personal success rate.










I would definetly look into finding someone else who may be better able to help you and your baby. Also, I believe that a chiropractor has to be specially trained in Webster and Bagnell. So you may need to look elsewhere...at least for the Bagnell.


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## amyro (Aug 6, 2004)

This certainly wouldn't be the first thing I'd try (all of the previous posters have done a good job of listing those...) but there are a few studies that suggest that an external cephalic version done under either epidural or spinal anesthesia has a better success rate than when it's done without. Therefore, if you end up electing a c-section for your breech birth, you should demand another attempt at the version after they have placed your anesthesia but before they start surgery. Of course, I think the research also supports vaginal breech birth for most women/babes. The problem is finding a doctor or midwife who is willing to attend you...

I know it sounds very interventionist (and like I said there are a dozen things I would do before resorting to this...) but it seems like a reasonable last-resort.


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## OnTheFence (Feb 15, 2003)

ECV's are dangerous. No two doctors are alike in skill. My own OB will no longer do them because she had a first time mother with no previous problems with her uterus rupture. I highly recommend reading about ECVs and finding out your own doctors statistics on 1) how many were successful and how many failed 2) how many of those that were successful still ended up with a csection and the reasons for those csections 3) how many of those that were successful did the baby have problems.

ECVs are painful. They can leave your baby bruised. Your baby can become so stressed out they have heart decels and poop meconium. Even with medication, like a spinal or epidural an ECV can be dangerous to the mother as well. Even doctors with the best skills do not mean a bad outcome will not happen.

Babies are breech for a reason. If you have tried many of the things listed in this thread and still have a breech baby then consider that is what is meant to be.

BTDT


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## umami_mommy (May 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *amjs* 
the only info i found on the pulsatilla said to use it for one day. i think the directions were one pill every two hours--so it's ok to try it again? do you know what the dosing would be?


i would take it like this 24 hours or until baby turns. after that i would take 3, 3 times day or 3 days. then if baby doesn't turn. you can stop taking it. or continue. since it can't hurt. if baby doesn't turn in that amount of time, most likely pulsatilla won't help.


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## Bertana (Apr 15, 2005)

FWIW, you can check out this website:

http://www.spinningbabies.com/index.php

At least you've got the mammas here in MDC to give you some advice, I unfortunately discovered MDC after my unwanted c-section (big breech baby). I'lll try and send good thoughts your way









BEST OF LUCK!!!


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