# Whats Wrong With Praising Children?



## MaryLang (Jun 18, 2004)

I'm not trying to sound b*#!-y I really want to know.
Are there some links you can give me?
I praise my kids alot. I don't know why. We tried for 3 yrs to have kids and I am truly amazed by most everything they do. Should I hold it in? What are the affects of it on their behavior? I always say awesome. And I say Oh, you are so cute! Because I really think it. Am I ruining them emotionally?


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## twins10705 (Feb 10, 2006)

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## geekgolightly (Apr 21, 2004)

i still cant sort that one, but i think people are worried that if you praise your child he/she will associate the act with being stroked rather than internal pleasure from doing the act itself.

personally, i think that might be ok for older children MAYBE, but IMHO, children need parents to give them the tools to self regulate and praise is one of them.


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## Kaitnbugsmom (Dec 4, 2003)

It's something I've never understood either. It seems like either end is wrong. I understand not spanking or otherwise being violent. That's morally, ethically, and just generally wrong, aside from being emotionally, mentally and otherwise scarring & damaging. But then again, we aren't supposed to be too positive with them either? I don't get that. It seems almost like in order to apease the AP gods or popular opinion or whatever, we can't do anything with our kids except just kind of be-there..

I will admit that I don't go to that extreme. We praise the kids when they do something right. It's been vital to give Kait positive feedback as she incorporates new coping skills.







:


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaryLang* 
I praise my kids alot. I don't know why. We tried for 3 yrs to have kids and I am truly amazed by most everything they do.

There is a huge difference between "positive feedback" and praise (which is a value judgement).
We don't praise. We do, however, celebrate a LOT along WITH ds. I show him that I love and "approve" of him all the time, he doesn't have to do something special to get my approval.
I don't have time to go into it further, and my brain can't do it right now. lol

Here are a few links that might clarify...
http://www.extension.umn.edu/family/W00009.html
http://www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/gj.htm

My favorite "praise" paragraph comes from The Continuum Concept

Quote:

The familiar expedients of praise and blame wreak havoc upon the motives of children, especially the smallest ones. If the child does something useful, like putting on his own clothes or feeding the dog, bringing in a handful of field flowers or making an ashtray from a lump of clay, nothing can be more discouraging than an expression of surprise that he has behaved socially: "Oh, what a good girl!" "Look what Georgie has made all by himself!" and similar exclamations imply that sociality is unexpected, uncharacteristic, and unusual in the child.
TCC 88


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## mothragirl (Sep 10, 2005)

i think there is a difference between giving your kids positive statements and what i see on the playground. parents following their kids around yelling "good job bobby" and clapping every time they do ANYTHING. i cheer for alice, just for fun, and she loves it, but i don't praise her every single time she does anything.


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## Jasmyn's Mum (May 24, 2004)

I don't think you should praise everything they do but I think it's important to help build their confidence in themselves. I'll say things like "you are such a good singer/dancer/painter," etc.. I don't see the harm in that.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Do you see the difference between:

"Good job climbing up to the top!" and "Wow, you climbed all the way to the top!"

Both are positive. One is a value judgment placed by the adult on the child. The other is a statement of fact, but shares in the child's own enthusiasm. The second lets the child draw their own conclusion.

The fear is that if children hear "good job" ALL the time, then they will come to rely on external reinforcements for everything. There are interesting research studies that show, for example, that when children are doing creative projects and are praised for the result, they draw/paint LESS and are less creative. So, judging a child stifles their own creativity. Noticing, commenting does not.

But, read the links the pp gave, that explains it in more depth. And if you search for "praise" you'll see a couple of past threads here discussing the same thing.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

And to add to what the pp said, they become less able to come up with their OWN value judgements of their own actions.
Ds has a right to decide whether he feels like his "job" of building a wall was "good" or not. It's not for me to decide.


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## acystay (Aug 15, 2002)

I like how Kohn explains it says to a child you that they need to jump through your hoops in order to get your love.

I try so hard to remember to ask more questions about things that they do rather than placing my adult perception on things. I do say that I like things when my daughter asks me or that I don't and then we together fix it. I ask her what she thinks of things as well.

I had a hard time at her dance (she's 4 1/2) recitial last weekend. She was so adorablly cute doing the routine and the smallest one. I loved every minute of it! She came to me and that I loved her dance and she did a great dance. She was smiling and everything. Then she said yeah but you shoulda come to the first one (dress rehearsal we couldn't) I did better. Sorry to turn this into me now! but man that was hard to see her upset at herself, but I asked her she if she had fun and what she liked about it. I don't think she got from this (me saying great dance) that she had to dance for me to love her. I think what others object to is the empty praises all the time.


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## mika85 (Aug 9, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kaitnbugsmom* 
It's something I've never understood either. It seems like either end is wrong. I understand not spanking or otherwise being violent. That's morally, ethically, and just generally wrong, aside from being emotionally, mentally and otherwise scarring & damaging. But then again, we aren't supposed to be too positive with them either? I don't get that. It seems almost like in order to apease the AP gods or popular opinion or whatever, we can't do anything with our kids except just kind of be-there..

I will admit that I don't go to that extreme. We praise the kids when they do something right. It's been vital to give Kait positive feedback as she incorporates new coping skills.







:

ITA.

not trying to be smart, but how do you help build a child's confidence without praising them when they accomplish something?? it even goes against my instincts.


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## karlin (Apr 8, 2004)

Here's a great article on the subject.

http://www.naturalchild.org/robin_gr...ds_praise.html


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## BamBam'sMom (Jun 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mika85* 
ITA.

not trying to be smart, but how do you help build a child's confidence without praising them when they accomplish something?? it even goes against my instincts.

You build a child's confidence by showing them that you love them unconditionally, regardless of whether they're "good" or "bad". That way, their confidence is not gone when they make a mistake.

Alfie Kohn makes a good point about praise and self-esteem in Unconditional Parenting. A child can take pride in his or her accomplishments without being praised. If his self-esteem is dependent on praise, it is non-existant without praise. There have been studies that suggest that people's performance is actually worse after recieving praise, because they are more focused on recieving more praise than on accomplishing the task at hand. They are also less likely to feel that they are good people for doing things. They don't feel like they share because they know it makes their friends happy, but because it makes their parents give them a "good job sharing."

They are being motivated to do something for their parent's praise, not for their own enjoyment and sense of accomplishment. There is an article on Kohn's webside called "Five Reasons to Stop Saying Good Job," or something close to that. It's a good read. He mentions that it is better for a child to accomplish something and be proud as a result, rather than to look at the parent and think "Did I do a good job?"

I highly recommend Unconditional Parenting.


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## myrmom (Aug 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mika85* 
ITA.

not trying to be smart, but how do you help build a child's confidence without praising them when they accomplish something?? it even goes against my instincts.


i agree


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## Imogen (Jul 25, 2006)

I've struggled with this issue too. I never considered 'praising' my son a negative thing until I encountered some of the posts that I've read on MDC over the past couple of months. But you know, if my son achieves something which makes him visibly happy and ecstatic, then I will 'praise' him. Or positive reinforcement if you will


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## karlin (Apr 8, 2004)

There is a big difference between expressing genuine happiness and pride in something your child does and praising him in order to get him to repeat that behavior. The former is viewed by your child as their parent expressing joy, and the latter is a tool of manipulation.


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## mamatoliam (Oct 31, 2005)

not trying to be smart, but how do you help build a child's confidence without praising them when they accomplish something?? it even goes against my instincts.[/QUOTE]

I see that my son was born confident in himself. He doesn't need me to build it for him, just needs me not to make him question his confidence either. If I don't praise him when he does something I see as 'good' or 'right' he gets to decide for himself how he feels. I tend to mirror his reactions. If he looks at me super happy, I am happy too and say 'You did x, you are happy about it.' or something like that.

Of course I think he is amazing and treat him as such, which is showing him my love, happiness and joy about his existance all the time (not his accomplishments), no matter what! Because of this I don't find myself being neutral, we find many things about life to be excited about together! For example just the fun of making cookies is something to be excited about (We are making cookies, oh, now it's time to mix, okay, you stir, yes I am having fun too!, etc.), not that he is 'helping' (Good job helping.)

If you are totally uncomfortable with no praise, when you find yourself praising, evaluate why you are doing it. Because you are truly excited, or because you want them to repeate the behaviour that you found appropriate. I am way more against the second kind (i.e. Good job on sharing! or I liked the way you gave Thomas a truck.) as a pose to sheer pleasure at what they have accomplished (i.e. Good job on your painting! or I really think your painting is beautiful!).

By the way the main idea for avoiding the second kind of praise as written above is that when kids are praised for something they enjoy doing, they can loose their intrinsic motivation. (This has been well researched, see Unconditional Parenting for more info.)


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## Benji'sMom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mika85* 
ITA.

not trying to be smart, but how do you help build a child's confidence without praising them when they accomplish something?? it even goes against my instincts.

Well, my point of view is that you DON'T build a child's confidence. They should have self confidence which in my opinion means confidence that comes from *themselves*, I don't need to supply it. By saying you need to build a child's confidence, that implies that they have no confidence to begin with. I think they already have confidence.
BUT I'll admit I'm not as hard core as _Unconditional Parenting_, because I don't monitor every compliment to make sure that Alphie Kohn would approve of the exact way I worded it. And I'm not always thinking, "Am I going to damage him by saying XYZ?"

I just think overall, they have my love and support, but they don't need me telling them that they did something "good" or "bad."


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## aprons_and_acorns (Sep 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
There are interesting research studies that show, for example, that when children are doing creative projects and are praised for the result, they draw/paint LESS and are less creative. So, judging a child stifles their own creativity. Noticing, commenting does not.


I think this is so important! As a young child my teacher noticed that I may have an artistic aptitude so my mom enrolled me into some after school art classes. One of my teachers, my watercolor teacher, was so encouraging by the simple fact that she noticed my work, observed my methods, gave help when I asked, and encouraged me to fully explore the medium ("You certainly use a great deal of water in your work," "It looks like you tried some different techniques here", "Oh, I see you took my advice on the pigment choice.") There was an unstated, unconditional support for painting. No expectations. It was very freeing.

My mom on the other hand praised me relentlessly, except when I tried to experiment and move in other directions. This confused her and she would say so ("Why not just do another one of those beautiful landscapes?") I was so afraid of not being able to replicate my successes that it really inhibited me from stretching and growing when I painted at home. In fact, I kept a seperate folder of paintings that my mom was not allowed to see because they were not landscapes or seascapes or still lives. The simple fact that she praised my work left me to conclude that what was important about painting was pleasing her, and if I did not continue to please her I would be a failure.

I know that was a long post, but I think it does illustrate the negative effect praise has on creativity. When I was a preschool teacher I took a workshop on "talking to children about their art" and it was fascinating and so helpful in understanding how to fully encourage a child without slipping into the "praise" stuff that can have an unintentional negative impact.

Ok, back to







:


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## geekgolightly (Apr 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rowdypea* 
I think this is so important! As a young child my teacher noticed that I may have an artistic aptitude so my mom enrolled me into some after school art classes. One of my teachers, my watercolor teacher, was so encouraging by the simple fact that she noticed my work, observed my methods, gave help when I asked, and encouraged me to fully explore the medium ("You certainly use a great deal of water in your work," "It looks like you tried some different techniques here", "Oh, I see you took my advice on the pigment choice.") There was an unstated, unconditional support for painting. No expectations. It was very freeing.

My mom on the other hand praised me relentlessly, except when I tried to experiment and move in other directions. This confused her and she would say so ("Why not just do another one of those beautiful landscapes?") I was so afraid of not being able to replicate my successes that it really inhibited me from stretching and growing when I painted at home. In fact, I kept a seperate folder of paintings that my mom was not allowed to see because they were not landscapes or seascapes or still lives. The simple fact that she praised my work left me to conclude that what was important about painting was pleasing her, and if I did not continue to please her I would be a failure.

I know that was a long post, but I think it does illustrate the negative effect praise has on creativity. When I was a preschool teacher I took a workshop on "talking to children about their art" and it was fascinating and so helpful in understanding how to fully encourage a child without slipping into the "praise" stuff that can have an unintentional negative impact.

Ok, back to







:

she wasnt praising you, she was showing displeasure when you painted anything other than seascapes

im going to show displeasure when my son hits my dog or ruins my yarn etc, and i am going to praise him when he expresses himself appropriately = able to function in society. and really, im quite basic in my needs concerning that. i want him to be able to get a job and hold it. when he smashes another childs paintbox, that will be a no no. when he paints whatever he wants to paint that will be a WOW. when he paints dragons killing the art teacher over and over and over, i would consider therapy.

i really believe that our children need to be able to navigate in life and in order to do that they need feedback, not neutral declarative statements.


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## aprons_and_acorns (Sep 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *geekgolightly* 
she wasnt praising you, she was showing displeasure when you painted anything other than seascapes


She was praising me. Her praise made me feel like my work would always be evaluated by her and judged accordingly. When she was silent was when I knew I had displeased her. That's what I was fearful of.

Edited to add: I don't think she ever did say anything negative about my work, but constantly hearing her un-asked for value judgements was stifiling. That's what I intended to convey in my post.


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## insahmniak (Aug 16, 2003)

If behavior control is our motivation, in all reality we are LESS likely to see the behavior repeated after we give praise. (Courtesy AKohn review of research on motivation and human behavior. See Punished by Rewards for details.)

If encouraging self-confidence is what we're after, people are actually less likely to feel unconditionally accepted and loved (ie self-confident) if they are praised for their actions and abilities.

Praise leads to the development of Praise Junkies, people who are very much externally motivated. External motivation is sad in many ways. One loses one's sense of self, self-satisfation, and one's own personal compass. Praise from parents encourages our children to live to please. And someday, that person/society/blah they are wanting to please won't be you.

You know those bumper stickers that say, "My child is on the honor roll at blah blah blah..."? That's the praise parent. Another option is the bumper sticker that reads, "My child is."

That's the difference.


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## BamBam'sMom (Jun 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *geekgolightly* 
im going to show displeasure when my son hits my dog or ruins my yarn etc, and i am going to praise him when he expresses himself appropriately = able to function in society. and really, im quite basic in my needs concerning that. i want him to be able to get a job and hold it. when he smashes another childs paintbox, that will be a no no. when he paints whatever he wants to paint that will be a WOW. when he paints dragons killing the art teacher over and over and over, i would consider therapy.

i really believe that our children need to be able to navigate in life and in order to do that they need feedback, not neutral declarative statements.

Not using praise and punishment does not mean that you can never tell your child "no." Of course there are lessons kids need to learn in order to function in society. I feel that lessons are learned better through experience. I'm not saying it's appropriate to let children do whatever they want, regardless of whether or not it's safe for them and sensitive to others' feelings. But natural consequences teach a great deal.

As for holding a job, one of my family members actually has trouble with this as a result of her need for praise. Her self-confidence relies on praise, and she is often unhappy because of it. If she does something at work and does not get proper recognition, she gets down on herself. She hates every job she gets. How often in real life does a boss follow you around going "good job, good job?"


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## mackysmama (Jan 11, 2005)

I'm cautiously jumping in here with some questions. I've been reading this thread and others about praise but I'm left with some questions.

First, I totally get why NOT to use rewards. I want my son to clean his room because he recognizes it is easier to play in a clean room NOT so he can get a sticker that can lead to an ice cream cone. I get that.

I also get why NOT to overuse praise. I remember making an intentionally really ugly drawing and showing it to my mother to see what she would say. She said it was beautiful and I felt completely lied to about all the other drawings that she said were beautiful (though, now as I mother I understand that if my child was to smear mustard on his shirt I would think it was beautiful). So, when my son brings me art to look at I try to say "tell me about that. how did you do it, etc.." But I also will say "I like the way you painted that part yellow" or say something specific about what I liked.

So, that's what I get. What I don't get is...what about thank yous or trying to teach a child to not hit or being grateful that my child was especially patient in the store, etc? Is it considered praise (in the bad way) to say "thank you for helping your sister on the stairs" or "I liked the way you offered to help your sister." Or, as I'm trying to teach my dd that pulling her brothers hair isn't a good idea saying "yes, gentle, that's good to be gentle with brother." Or "I really liked how patient you were in the store today. It was very helpful to mama." Or "thank you for cleaning up your dishes without being asked." Or "I'm proud of you for telling XX that you don't like to pretend with guns. I bet that was hard." Or, the example above about the part I like in his art.

I'm trying to give concrete examples of things I actually say so that I can get concrete feedback to better understand. I don't understand how this praise is damaging? I totally understand and am irritated by constant, meaningless praising. But, if I want my son to continue to offer help to his sister, shouldn't I let him know that I noticed and appreciated it? How do I teach my daughter not to pull her brother's hair if I don't give her positive reinforcement when she is gentle?

I am very interested in positive feedback to help me better understand.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *geekgolightly* 
im going to show displeasure when my son hits my dog or ruins my yarn etc,

Well, of course. I definitely will tell my son freely how his actions are affecting me or others. How else will he know?

Quote:

and i am going to praise him when he expresses himself appropriately = able to function in society.
I guess we differ there. I think that children innately are social beings. I expect that ds wants to behave socially, and that he will do so if he is able. I am NOT going to show surprise that he does it! (see my quote from TCC earlier in this thread)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *geekgolightly* 
i really believe that our children need to be able to navigate in life and in order to do that they need feedback, not neutral declarative statements.

Informative feedback would be "It makes Brooke (our dog) really happy when you pet her like that." THAT gives helpful information that ds can use to evaluate his own actions and to understand how and why to respond in other similar situations. There is no value judgement there from me(of course, I am speaking for the dog).
"Good job petting" doesn't give near the amount of useful information. All it really tells him is that *I* approve of his petting "job." It doesn't tell him why its "good" to pet her like that.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mackysmama* 
So, that's what I get. What I don't get is...what about thank yous or trying to teach a child to not hit or being grateful that my child was especially patient in the store, etc? Is it considered praise (in the bad way) to say "thank you for helping your sister on the stairs" or "I liked the way you offered to help your sister." Or, as I'm trying to teach my dd that pulling her brothers hair isn't a good idea saying "yes, gentle, that's good to be gentle with brother." Or "I really liked how patient you were in the store today. It was very helpful to mama." Or "thank you for cleaning up your dishes without being asked." Or "I'm proud of you for telling XX that you don't like to pretend with guns. I bet that was hard." Or, the example above about the part I like in his art.

To be honest, I think all those examples are fine. I'd personally not pick those apart if it were me, but I'm not a hardcore AK'er.








The ONLY one that even sticks out is the "I liked the way you offered to help your sister." I might replace that with some statement about how his action affected SISTER. "She made it up the stairs, with your help! Look how happy she looks." But it's nothing that I'd personally think twice about if it came out of my mouth, kwim?
I think that in all of your examples, you are specific enough that what comes through is the what and the why, not so much the value judgement.
Not praising comes easily to me. I've heard dp say "good job" to ds before. But its always so couched in between specifics that it doesn't affect ds at all. I've seen how real, generic praise affects him, and THAT ain't pretty! lol


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## momileigh (Oct 29, 2002)

I am a wannabe hardcore AKer. I have to concentrate on not giving value judgments because "good job" does come naturally to me. But I am amazed at how comments like this take the place of the "good jobs" and my dd responds so nicely to them:

1. You built a tower 2 feet tall!
2. You are all dressed for the day.
3. You made that sandwich by yourself.
4. That is a very yellow painting.
5. You helped your sister.
6. When you said, "Hello," that was being friendly.
7. You learned to use your scissors.

I'm getting used to it now, but when I first started, it seemed very unnatural not to give a value judgment along with the comment. (ie "That is a yellow painting, AND I LOVE YELLOW" or "You are so smart to use scissors all by yourself".) I felt like she was going to look at me like, "My painting is yellow? What kind of compliment is THAT?" But she doesn't. She just takes my acknowlegement for what it is, and makes up her own mind how to feel about it. She never asks me how I feel about her accomplishments, and I'd really like to keep it that way, because I plan to unschool, so she's going to need all of her intrinsic motivation intact.

My initial comment to the OP was going to be, if you are using praise to manipulate your child, then it is inappropriate. But you know, we don't even realize that's what we're doing. We are sometimes trying to manipulate our children into feeling accomplished/talented/smart. If we just let them do their thing, they will come to honestly recognize positive attributes in themselves on their own.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mackysmama* 
I'm cautiously jumping in here with some questions. I've been reading this thread and others about praise but I'm left with some questions.

First, I totally get why NOT to use rewards. I want my son to clean his room because he recognizes it is easier to play in a clean room NOT so he can get a sticker that can lead to an ice cream cone. I get that.

I also get why NOT to overuse praise. I remember making an intentionally really ugly drawing and showing it to my mother to see what she would say. She said it was beautiful and I felt completely lied to about all the other drawings that she said were beautiful (though, now as I mother I understand that if my child was to smear mustard on his shirt I would think it was beautiful). So, when my son brings me art to look at I try to say "tell me about that. how did you do it, etc.." But I also will say "I like the way you painted that part yellow" or say something specific about what I liked.

So, that's what I get. What I don't get is...what about thank yous or trying to teach a child to not hit or being grateful that my child was especially patient in the store, etc? Is it considered praise (in the bad way) to say "thank you for helping your sister on the stairs" or "I liked the way you offered to help your sister." Or, as I'm trying to teach my dd that pulling her brothers hair isn't a good idea saying "yes, gentle, that's good to be gentle with brother." Or "I really liked how patient you were in the store today. It was very helpful to mama." Or "thank you for cleaning up your dishes without being asked." Or "I'm proud of you for telling XX that you don't like to pretend with guns. I bet that was hard." Or, the example above about the part I like in his art.

I'm trying to give concrete examples of things I actually say so that I can get concrete feedback to better understand. I don't understand how this praise is damaging? I totally understand and am irritated by constant, meaningless praising. But, if I want my son to continue to offer help to his sister, shouldn't I let him know that I noticed and appreciated it? How do I teach my daughter not to pull her brother's hair if I don't give her positive reinforcement when she is gentle?

I am very interested in positive feedback to help me better understand.

I have been following praise threads on this board for quite some time, and I just found a description of helpful praise that I really, really liked and felt comfortable with in Becky Bailey's Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline. It was by far my favorite part of that book.

She says that it's okay to add a tag at the end that describes the value that you saw executed. For example, instead of saying, "I liked the way you helped your sister on the stairs," you could first describe: "You helped your sister on the stairs," then give your child a word to describe what that action was, "That was helpful." She talked about teaching values this way just like when you taught them to talk. You would say, "Here's a spoon, this is a spoon," as you handed them a spoon. So now you teach them the words for the other, more abstract things that they're learning:

"You got a spoon and a napkin for your daddy. That was thoughtful." or "You let your brother pick first, that was polite." etc.

Also, I used to thank my kids all the time. I ALWAYS thanked them for helping me in the grocery store. But one point that was brought up in this book was that when you thank your children, you're implying that the only reason to be patient in the grocery store is to help your mom. Or when they set the table, I'm thanking them because it's my job and they helped me by doing it. I think this is fine, sometimes, but I want my kids to feel more like they're part of a team. I want them to feel like we're all working together, and we can all contribute equally. I grew up on a ranch, and my parents really did depend on me. I really did contribute to the greater good, certainly not as much as they did, but in my own very important way. This was soooo good for my self-esteem, and I want my kids to have that feeling of being included contributors, too. So, I've been trying to substitute some of my thank yous with statements pointing out how quickly we got things done when we worked together, or something like that. I still do thank them quite a bit, but I'm at least more thoughtful about it now.

Okay, now the last thing I wanted to say is that while you (of course) want your son to continue to be kind to your sister, you DON'T want him to do it because you noticed and appreciated it, right? You shouldn't even be involved in the equation, ideally. So if you can just facilitate their relationship, by pointing out how happy he made her or how much she liked it when he did XYZ, I think you're giving your kids a great gift while teaching them empathy and awareness of others. And they'll hopefully be more likely to spontaneously treat each other well, instead of just when you're around.


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## ejsmama (Jun 20, 2006)

You know, I think we can drive ourselves crazy trying to always be perfect AP parents. I have always been really positive with my son, and yes, I praise him. I tell him that I really liked the way he shared his toys today. I celebrate with him when he accomplishes something new. Do you really think that saying "That was really cool!" is going to harm him emotionally?

Sometimes I feel like I'm a bad parent now whatever I do when I read these boards. Now we are in trouble for being positive and loving and happy. I really don't get it. I also don't get the whole thing about praise being manipulation. We WANT to shape our kids behavior, don't we? And if you say no, honestly, I will not believe you. Manipulation is a negative word to describe something all of us do every day. I think every parent manipulates no matter what their parenting philosophy is, if by manipulating you mean trying to shape your child into a responsible, loving human being who doesn't harm others. The tone of your voice offers just as much judgement as your word choice. So no, I don't really see the difference between saying "I really liked seeing your share" and "That was sharing", because it is the tone of voice that is doing the shaping of the behavior and communicating your pleasure/displeasure. Do you really think that saying "that was sharing" in a really positive way does not implicitely tell the child that you liked and approved of what he/she did? The next thing you know, a guru will say that we must say everything in a monotone so as not to deeply harm our child psychologically.

I'm sorry if I sound angry, but this particular AP issue is getting frustrating for me. There are so many lousy parents in this world, I don't think that ones who are being positive should feel like failures.


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## ejsmama (Jun 20, 2006)

Want to appologize if I came off way too b**chy in previous post. It has been a long couple of days, and just because something is frustrating me, doesn't excuse sounding jugemental toward others who deeply care about this and are trying hard to do the best job they can as parents.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

No one is saying that anyone is bad parents. However this is a board where we like to discuss our parenting and our methods. We like to talk and think about them and analyze them. We will never grow as human beings or parents if we sit back on our laurels and accept that we know everything. It is always refreshing to challenge our thoughts and beliefs, re-evaluate, rethink, make sure things still hold true.

None of this is an attack, its simply a call for discussion and reflection on ourselves


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## Jude Rose (Jul 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rowdypea* 
I think this is so important! As a young child my teacher noticed that I may have an artistic aptitude so my mom enrolled me into some after school art classes. One of my teachers, my watercolor teacher, was so encouraging by the simple fact that she noticed my work, observed my methods, gave help when I asked, and encouraged me to fully explore the medium ("You certainly use a great deal of water in your work," "It looks like you tried some different techniques here", "Oh, I see you took my advice on the pigment choice.") There was an unstated, unconditional support for painting. No expectations. It was very freeing.

My mom on the other hand praised me relentlessly, except when I tried to experiment and move in other directions. This confused her and she would say so ("Why not just do another one of those beautiful landscapes?") I was so afraid of not being able to replicate my successes that it really inhibited me from stretching and growing when I painted at home. In fact, I kept a seperate folder of paintings that my mom was not allowed to see because they were not landscapes or seascapes or still lives. The simple fact that she praised my work left me to conclude that what was important about painting was pleasing her, and if I did not continue to please her I would be a failure.

I know that was a long post, but I think it does illustrate the negative effect praise has on creativity. When I was a preschool teacher I took a workshop on "talking to children about their art" and it was fascinating and so helpful in understanding how to fully encourage a child without slipping into the "praise" stuff that can have an unintentional negative impact.

Ok, back to







:

This was so eye-opening. Thanks for sharing!


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

I do not like to use praise because it is behviorism.

At best behaviorism simply doesn't "work" in the long run. And at worst, it can create praise-junkies. I am married to one and it is not something I would wish upon my child.


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## momileigh (Oct 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ejsmama* 
I tell him that I really liked the way he shared his toys today. I celebrate with him when he accomplishes something new. Do you really think that saying "That was really cool!" is going to harm him emotionally?

No, but according to research, it might make him less likely to share next time. Kohn covers this is PbyR and UP.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ejsmama* 
Sometimes I feel like I'm a bad parent now whatever I do when I read these boards. Now we are in trouble for being positive and loving and happy. I really don't get it.

Wow. I for one always have more worthy of confession than congratulation. No one is perfect. The point is to be always improving. Compare it to a chef. They may make some very good food. They can also work hard to always make something more challenging, more delicious, more healthy, etc. They aren't a bad cook if they can't make a gourmet meal, but it is a worthy goal to reach for. My kids are my profession. I think I do OK but there is always room to grow, improve, learn, become more skillful.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ejsmama* 
I also don't get the whole thing about praise being manipulation. We WANT to shape our kids behavior, don't we? And if you say no, honestly, I will not believe you.

I don't want to shape my kids' behavior; I want to teach them to shape their own. It is a greyish distinction to be sure, but there is a difference. There are some perfectly behaved people who aren't happy; there are some people who don't fit society's ideas of "well behaved" but end up doing great things. I want my kids to reach their potential and be happy, well-adjusted, self-reliant... many things, but well-behaved is kinda low on the list.

If you "don't get it" and you haven't read Unconditional Parenting, then no wonder. I read it and I still can't totally wrap my head around it. I need to read it again. It is a challenging read with very different ideas. If you have read it and you still feel the same way, nothing anyone says is likely to convince you and you may have to agree to disagree.

BTW, I don't think you were being [email protected]#y. I hear you. I DO beat myself up sometimes because I've been exposed to great ideas that haven't yet taken root in my parenting style. I have to remind myself of the same stuff I just said to you. I hope my kids won't be so hard on themselves as I am on myself. I'd love to hear about it if you do have the time to check out Kohn's stuff, to see what you think, and if it changed your mind at all.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
She says that it's okay to add a tag at the end that describes the value that you saw executed. For example, instead of saying, "I liked the way you helped your sister on the stairs," you could first describe: "You helped your sister on the stairs," then give your child a word to describe what that action was, "That was helpful." .

I guess I wouldn't consider that to be praise. lol.

I thank ds too. I do it in the same situations that I would thank an adult for helping out. It seems the right thing to do.

Quote:

Okay, now the last thing I wanted to say is that while you (of course) want your son to continue to be kind to your sister, you DON'T want him to do it because you noticed and appreciated it, right? You shouldn't even be involved in the equation, ideally. So if you can just facilitate their relationship, by pointing out how happy he made her or how much she liked it when he did XYZ, I think you're giving your kids a great gift while teaching them empathy and awareness of others. And they'll hopefully be more likely to spontaneously treat each other well, instead of just when you're around.








:


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Yeah, we do shape our kids. But I do so without substituting my value judgements for real information.
And no, I'd not say someone is a bad parent for praising. I'm pretty judgemental when it comes to the way people treat children, but I could definitely see myself being friends with a "praiser." As much as I don't feel its necessary, or even beneficial, I can see why people do it, and its generally for child positive reasons.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ejsmama* 
So no, I don't really see the difference between saying "I really liked seeing your share" and "That was sharing", because it is the tone of voice that is doing the shaping of the behavior and communicating your pleasure/displeasure. Do you really think that saying "that was sharing" in a really positive way does not implicitely tell the child that you liked and approved of what he/she did?

I wouldn't say either of those. I'd say "Lily looks very happy that you shared that ball with her." It's specific, and it give real, meaningful information. Like natensarah said, what matters "in the real world" is how his actions affected the other person, not MY judgement of those actions. I personally am not affected whether he shares or not. I don't care. (I wouldn't allow him to TAKE a toy from some other kid, but he doesn't have to share a toy he had first). But other kids might care, and he has a right to know what the socially acceptable action is in that situation.

I do say "cool!" to ds.
I only praise when my value judgment is desired by the person, and I talk specifically about how *I* experience the actions, and its on level with the pride THEY feel in their actions. (and never manipulative praise)
So, if we're talking about a picture he drew, I might tell him that it was pretty (how I experience it), if he wasn't satisfied by my mentioning facts about his drawing, and he seemed particularly pleased with it. I wouldn't say "good job drawing."


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## Inci (Apr 22, 2005)

Momileigh, I like those examples you posted, of praise alternatives. Thanks!

For years, I've been working on finding alternatives to praise. It now comes automatically in some situations, but I have to consciously think about it in others. With children's art projects, it's not even habitual anymore for me to give it a value judgement - I respond with things like, "Wow, the green is mixing with the purple over here!" or "Tell me about your painting!"
After any kind of performance, I say, "Wow, it looked like you were having so much fun!", or some variation. Once I was out on the playground with a class of 4-year-olds, and one of them was dancing on a small wooden platform near where I was sitting and talking with two other adults. The girl stopped dancing, put on a huge pouty face, and huffed, "No one's watching, so I'm not going to dance anymore!" The other adults immediately snapped to attention - "No, dance! We're watching!"
I shrugged, and said to the girl, "If dancing is fun, then dance, even if no one's watching."
It made me so sad that this girl was already so "trained" to "perform," and had lost so much intrinsic motivation.
I don't want to contribute to that.

But other things, I still get confused about.

Natensarah - your post clarified a lot of things for me; i.e. the subtle difference between, "I liked the way you helped your sister on the stairs" and "you helped your sister on the stairs, that was thoughtful." I have been saying it both ways, I think because I didn't think so much about the distinction. But I now see how the second way of saying it is better!
I'm a daycare teacher, for infants and toddlers, and the 2 year olds frequently express anger physically, by hurting each other. It's important to me to give them positive reinforcement when they treat each other kindly (or even, at this point, yell instead of biting), but I think I may be overdoing it... e.g. if Joel gives Liam a toy, of his own free will, I've been rushing over to grin at Joel, hug him, and babble, "You shared with Liam! That was so kind of you! That made Liam really happy, yay!" And yes, I probably add a "thank you" in there! EEK.
I probably thank the children way too much. Ironic thing is, I learned "please" and "thank you" SO WELL as a toddler that saying those words has been so automatic and habitual ever since. So when I say to a child, "Feet on floor, please," as she climbs the bookshelf, and she puts her feet back on the floor, I reflexively say, "Thank you." Is this the kind of "thank you" that's not helpful? I guess I say it because I want to somehow acknowledge, positively, that she did what I asked. Suggestions of alternatives??


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
Also, I used to thank my kids all the time. I ALWAYS thanked them for helping me in the grocery store. But one point that was brought up in this book was that when you thank your children, you're implying that the only reason to be patient in the grocery store is to help your mom. Or when they set the table, I'm thanking them because it's my job and they helped me by doing it. I think this is fine, sometimes, but I want my kids to feel more like they're part of a team. I want them to feel like we're all working together, and we can all contribute equally.

That's a good point. We do still thank the kids for helping out, though...because we _all_ receive thanks. I get thanked for cooking dinner every night...except if dh steps in, in which case he gets thanked. DS1 will be cooking dinner one night a week again soon (we quit when school started back up), and we'll thank him for cooking...and he'll thank us for teaching/helping him. I've thanked dh for going to work every day.

I guess to me the "thank you's" are part of being a team. We all appreciate one another's contributions, so we make a note of that.


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## warriorprincess (Nov 19, 2001)

Maybe it's my adult perspective, but if I showed someone a painting I had done and they told it was "very yellow", I'd figure it was because it was so bad they couldn't think af anything else to say.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

First, to those who are objecting: Not praising doesn't mean not being positive. For me at least, it just means not saying "Good job!" all the time. "Good job" "good sharing", etc. are evaluations. I still say "Wow! Look how high that is." I still share in joy. And I do still say "Good job" at times because, well, it's pretty engrained. I don't think an occasional "good job" is going to scar my children







. But, I do think that being more specific about what I mean REALLY helps.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Inci* 
Natensarah - your post clarified a lot of things for me; i.e. the subtle difference between, "I liked the way you helped your sister on the stairs" and "you helped your sister on the stairs, that was thoughtful." I have been saying it both ways, I think because I didn't think so much about the distinction.

I used to say "I really liked the way you helped your sister up the stairs" too. I've been trying, very consciously, in the last few weeks to quit praising my kids when they are nice to each other, especially ds, who is older and more able to feel judged. I've now reduced it to "Maria was having a hard time and you helped." or sometimes, gasp, nothing at all.

And you know what, their helpful behavior has not decreased one little bit. If anything, it's INCREASED. Now, it's possible that they're both at a stage of development where that would have happened no matter what. But, there are other benefits. *Instead of looking to ME for a reaction, they are looking to EACH OTHER for a reaction.* Learning to see how your behavior is influencing someone else is a crucial social skill. Learning to see how your behavior is affecting mom is not.

Another anecdote and then I'll quit procrastinating and go off to my meeting. Ds hates to be touched when he's upset. Dd loves to hug when she's upset. So, when dd sees ds upset, she wants to hug him. And the last thing that he wants is to be hugged!! We used to praise dd for hugging, because, well, it was sweet and cute. BUT that meant that when ds was upset, she tried to hug him and he went ballistic, and then we'd have to tell her not to hug, something she got recently been praised for.







:

I've quit praising her for hugging her brother. When she hugs ds and he's happy, great, I say nothing. When tries to hug ds and he doesn't want it, I can say "look, your brother is backing away. He doesn't want to be touched right now. He needs to be by himself." I'm no longer sending a "mixed message" by praising hugging but then telling her not to. She's learning to read his signals, which is more important than learning to hug well







.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Inci* 
I probably thank the children way too much. Ironic thing is, I learned "please" and "thank you" SO WELL as a toddler that saying those words has been so automatic and habitual ever since. So when I say to a child, "Feet on floor, please," as she climbs the bookshelf, and she puts her feet back on the floor, I reflexively say, "Thank you." Is this the kind of "thank you" that's not helpful? I guess I say it because I want to somehow acknowledge, positively, that she did what I asked. Suggestions of alternatives??

Yeah, I don't know about this one either! I often thank my children after they comply with a demand, something like you just said. And my dd is GREAT at thanking, she almost always does it, totally of her own accord. So she's definitely picked up on the habit. Becky Bailey says no, don't thank your child for doing what you say, it's passive-aggressive, but I'm not sure I agree.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
That's a good point. We do still thank the kids for helping out, though...because we _all_ receive thanks. I get thanked for cooking dinner every night...except if dh steps in, in which case he gets thanked. DS1 will be cooking dinner one night a week again soon (we quit when school started back up), and we'll thank him for cooking...and he'll thank us for teaching/helping him. I've thanked dh for going to work every day.

I guess to me the "thank you's" are part of being a team. We all appreciate one another's contributions, so we make a note of that.

Oh, yeah, we for sure still thank for stuff like that, especially when one person does something for everyone else.

But at the grocery store, for example, my goal is to make it more of a team effort, as the whole trip is a lot smoother and more fun if we have the attitude of all working together vs. them helping me with what I have to do. So I approach it kind of differently, I guess. Like if you were on a basketball team, you wouldn't tell another teammate thank you if they made a basket, right? Actually, you'd probably tell them good job! Ack! Bad analogy!


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:

Maybe it's my adult perspective, but if I showed someone a painting I had done and they told it was "very yellow", I'd figure it was because it was so bad they couldn't think af anything else to say.
IME, this idea that we're culturally condition to expect to hear praise if (and only if) our painting is "good" and/or pleasing to the viewer is exactly why I'm not a fan of praise. Does that make any sense? My dc, who don't have the expectation of hearing "Wow, what a wonderful job you did!" when they show me a painting seem quite content and pleased with themselves to hear that yep, Mommy noticed how much I enjoyed using all that yellow. They don't assume they did a "bad" job if I don't have much else to say







I'm usually of the mind that less words are more when it comes to this type of situation.

(Confessions from a recovering praise-junkie and parental pleaser...so I _really_ do understand the POV of thinking something or myself is "bad" if there isn't a gush of praise when I do something.)

Quote:

"Feet on floor, please," as she climbs the bookshelf, and she puts her feet back on the floor, I reflexively say, "Thank you." Is this the kind of "thank you" that's not helpful?
If I ask them for a specific reason to keep feet on the floor--I generally think of these kinds of thank yous as thanks for cooperating and making things safer for everyone or more harmonious...or easing my fears that you might fall or knock something off the bookshelf that might hurt the baby, etc. Thanks for acknowleging my request and being willing to work with me here......







YMMV


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## momileigh (Oct 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *warriorprincess* 
Maybe it's my adult perspective, but if I showed someone a painting I had done and they told it was "very yellow", I'd figure it was because it was so bad they couldn't think af anything else to say.

Really? One person's opinion would make YOU think your painting was bad? What about how YOU feel about your own work?

I think your reaction is very telling. It is what may happen if kids rely too heavily on praise!

Of course, for adults, you might not say, "very yellow." But you might:

1. Instead of "Good job on that proposal," how about, "This proposal is well-thought out and thorough. This bar graph is especially clear and helpful."

2. Instead of "I love the way you washed the car without my nagging you," how about, "It was such a pleasure to drive a clean car today." (And I would add a thank you... but that's controversial so I left it out!)

3. Instead of "That painting is so great, I can hardly believe you painted it, I love it, fabulous!" how about, "Your painting is emotional for me, it makes me feel sad, in a nostalgic sort of way. I'd like to see more of your work."

So it does apply to adults as well, IMO.

Back to praising kids, though. If every artist/musician/inventor relied on praise, we wouldn't have some of the greatest works of art, pieces of music, or inventions, of all time. If greatness lies in my kids, and I believe it does in some form that they must discover for themselves, then I want them to be able to tap into it and let it blossom, even if they get no praise or even if the world tries to discourage it! SO WHAT if someone doesn't rave about your painting... how do YOU feel about it? Is it worthwhile? Does it fulfill something in your soul?


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaryLang* 
I'm not trying to sound b*#!-y I really want to know.
Are there some links you can give me?
I praise my kids alot. I don't know why. We tried for 3 yrs to have kids and I am truly amazed by most everything they do. Should I hold it in? What are the affects of it on their behavior? I always say awesome. And I say Oh, you are so cute! Because I really think it. Am I ruining them emotionally?


I was really into learning about GD until I ran across how bad it was to praise kids. I lost interest there with the "Poisoned Carrots" article.
Like my mom said, seems every generation tries to rewrite how to raise kids.
With Darlene, she gets negative attention for doing something she knows she isn't to do (write on the walls) so I am going to be excited and praise her when she writes in her coloring book instead. Thats how babies learn, imo.


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## ejsmama (Jun 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momileigh* 
No, but according to research, it might make him less likely to share next time. Kohn covers this is PbyR and UP.

That is interesting, because I'm seeing my son share more and more. He really seems to get it. He is only 2, but talks about sharing and taking turns, and seems to have sharing down far better then many of his older peers. I'm going to read Kohn's articles, but I don't think in this case that our praise and positive feedback for sharing has causted him harm


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## ejsmama (Jun 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 

Here are a few links that might clarify...
http://www.extension.umn.edu/family/W00009.html
http://www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/gj.htm

These articles really helped me to understand where folks are coming from on the praise issue. I think what sets moms like me off in conversations about this is the word praise - we've been being positive with our kids, and suddenly it seems wrong. But the articles aren't condemning praise, they are talking about the dangers of manipulative praise. I agree that the examples of real, meaningful priase in the second artical are far more self esteem enhancing than simply saying "good job" or "good sharing" I have really tried to take people's comments in this thread to heart today, and notice what I say to my 2 year old.

So, here is an example of today: He was making a train and he said "Wow, mama, look at my train!" (do I have a praise junky in the making?) Instead of saying "good job" or "great train", I said "wow, you are really proud of that train. What is your favorite part of it?" He then went on and told me that he liked how Thomas was in the front and Henry was in the back. It was a much more meaningful conversation then "Cool train, Elijah" It took more thought on my part. So I think I do get this. It isn't about not being positive with him, it is about finding ways to share in his joy and letting him judge the outcome, not me.

Here the really funny thing. After he the conversation, he turned to me, gave me a kiss, and said "Mama doing a good job" I'm not kidding, that is what he said. Oi - my own words coming back to haunt me. But, the positive feedback did feel pretty good.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jasmyn's Mum* 
I don't think you should praise everything they do but I think it's important to help build their confidence in themselves. I'll say things like "you are such a good singer/dancer/painter," etc.. I don't see the harm in that.

I think the harm in that kind of thing is that it gives kids the message that they're being evaluated - that you pay attention to whether or not they are good at singing/dancing/painting, and that being good at those things is something you value. What if kids could grow up (or at least get through early childhood) without being concerned with whether or not other people would consider them "good" at what they do? What if they could just enjoy singing/dancing/painting? Wouldn't that be cool?

I agree with the others who have pointed out that kids should have no reason not to feel confident if they're not taught to be concerned about whether or not they're doing a good job.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ejsmama* 
Here the really funny thing. After he the conversation, he turned to me, gave me a kiss, and said "Mama doing a good job" I'm not kidding, that is what he said. Oi - my own words coming back to haunt me. But, the positive feedback did feel pretty good.

That's so cute!

I wanted to say that I think some children are more susceptible to being praise junkies than others. My dd, for example, is an introvert, and she's never really responded much to "good job". But we have some friends with an almost 2 year old who use heavy praise. I would classify them as very mainstream parents. The other day we were at their house and I was putting dd's shoes back on and couldn't find the other one. Their little girl brought it to me and I said, "Oh, thank you so much, L! I was looking all over for that!" And she said, "Good helper, good helper?" It made me kind of sad. Anyway, she's a child who's very aware of others, and others' reactions, and it seems even more important with children like that to not use manipulative praise, or to just kind of let them be, IYKWIM.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Not praising goes against my instict as well. I'm sure a child can take pride in their accomplishments without praise, but I certainly think it can help them along to know that we take pride in their accomplishments as well--but of course they also need to know that we are proud of THEM, no matter what. We can stop them from feeling evaluated by making sure that the feeling of acceptance, love, and pride are constant.

I don't see the problem with saying "Good job, honey. You're so smart!" when my son does something new or succeeds, especially considering he is too young to understand positive feedback. He gets enough positive attention that he will never feel the need to do something to be praised or to earn our love and pride. I don't think it is going to give him some false sense of superiority that will shatter the first time he fails either. He fails all of the time. He gets the same loving kind of reaction, "I'm so proud of you for being brave and trying. You'll get it one day!" I don't see what's wrong with praise, as long as it's balanced, as long as your child doesn't have to rely on it for attention and self-worth and validation, and as long as your child can still accept criticism and failure. And saying 'good job' doesn't mean you can't also tell them WHY the job was good.

A child won't learn he's smart only if he succeeds, or that he's more intelligent than other kids, just because you tell him he's smart. I happen to believe MOST kids are smart, and I don't see what's wrong with saying that, just like I wouldn't disagree with saying "Smart thinking, honey!" Now, if you don't teach him that other kids are just as smart, that he's not any less smart if he fails or if someone does something better, then there will be problems. I remember learning in school 'No matter what you do well, someone else does it better" and that we all have our strengths and weaknesses. We need to teach our children that smartness isn't related to everyone's own strengths or weaknesses; it's something that MOST people have. We are just all smart at different things.

I don't think we should be praising children everytime they do anything, but when they do something new or do something right for the first time, I see nothing wrong with telling them that it's a job well done. I don't clap whenever my son goes down the slide, but when he did it for the first time, I was cheering him on and telling him how brave he was to go it alone. I don't think "Good job" is a value judgement on the child; it's a judgement on the job. If you were saying 'You're such a good BOY' then the word good would be describing the child but in the phrase 'Good job' the word good is describing the job. That's just grammar. I agree they shouldn't hear it EVERY time they do something, especially if they could have improved. If anything you could say "Good job! May I offer a suggestion for next time though?"

I think it's a crock that telling your child 'good job' or 'I'm proud of you for trying/succeeding" teaches a child that they need to jump through hoops to get your love. If you give your child positive attention when they fail, when they succeed, and when they are doing nothing at all, if they hear "I'm proud of you" when they fail, when they succeed, and even sporatically when they come for a hug, I don't think they are going to learn that they need to jump through hoops to get your love. They learn that they have our love and that you are proud of them no matter what. Now if you were to ONLY say you're proud of them or love them when they succeed, THAT might cause problems.

I think some children do need to be told what they did good or bad, like young ones who are learning to do things. I think most need positive and negative feedback. That doesn't create expectations; it's just advice. If your child does something well, and you tell him that, how does that create an expectation? Maybe they learn if they succeed, they are praised. Why is that a problem, if they are also learning that they are loved no matter what, that we are just as proud of them when they don't succeed, etc? I have to agree that neutral, declarative statements, while they have their place and time, aren't all a child needs.

I try not to show displeasure in my child unless he is doing something harmful to himself or others, something that is morally or life-threatening, something that endangers the world or him in some way. I think those are perfectly reasonable times to be disapproving. I don't see approval/disapproval as behavior control, but just as an expression of emotion and opinion that we all have a right as people to do.

I want the bumper sticker that says "I am proud of my child WHETHER OR NOT they are on the honor roll." If they are on the honor roll, I will be proud and brag. If they are not on the honor roll, I WILL STILL be proud and brag. My son is a late talker. Oh well! He walked at 9 1/2 months. I see nothing wrong with being proud of his accomplishments, as long as I am proud of HIM no matter what and make that known to the world.

I do want my child to feel accomplished, talented, or smart when he has accomplished something, is showing his talent, or expressing a gift. I don't think praising him will make him NOT feel those things on his own. I was praised as a child...and as an adult, I feel accomplished when I succeed. If I fail, oh well. I will try harder next time. I don't expect praise when I succeed either; I'm a housewife, after all. *chuckles* I think it just is a matter of balance, and I can see how wording can be important. I think you can offer praise, as aparent, but still teach your child the world isn't full of it. You can ask them how they feel about something AND still tell them how you feel about it.


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## aprons_and_acorns (Sep 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momileigh* 
Really? One person's opinion would make YOU think your painting was bad? What about how YOU feel about your own work?

I think your reaction is very telling. It is what may happen if kids rely too heavily on praise!

Of course, for adults, you might not say, "very yellow." But you might:

1. Instead of "Good job on that proposal," how about, "This proposal is well-thought out and thorough. This bar graph is especially clear and helpful."

2. Instead of "I love the way you washed the car without my nagging you," how about, "It was such a pleasure to drive a clean car today." (And I would add a thank you... but that's controversial so I left it out!)

3. Instead of "That painting is so great, I can hardly believe you painted it, I love it, fabulous!" how about, "Your painting is emotional for me, it makes me feel sad, in a nostalgic sort of way. I'd like to see more of your work."

So it does apply to adults as well, IMO.

Back to praising kids, though. If every artist/musician/inventor relied on praise, we wouldn't have some of the greatest works of art, pieces of music, or inventions, of all time. If greatness lies in my kids, and I believe it does in some form that they must discover for themselves, then I want them to be able to tap into it and let it blossom, even if they get no praise or even if the world tries to discourage it! SO WHAT if someone doesn't rave about your painting... how do YOU feel about it? Is it worthwhile? Does it fulfill something in your soul?

(trying not to praise here!) Your post is well thought-out and makes some points that seem very insightful. It was certainly worthwhile for me to read.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mackysmama* 
So, that's what I get. What I don't get is...what about thank yous or trying to teach a child to not hit or being grateful that my child was especially patient in the store, etc? Is it considered praise (in the bad way) to say "thank you for helping your sister on the stairs" or "I liked the way you offered to help your sister." Or, as I'm trying to teach my dd that pulling her brothers hair isn't a good idea saying "yes, gentle, that's good to be gentle with brother." Or "I really liked how patient you were in the store today. It was very helpful to mama." Or "thank you for cleaning up your dishes without being asked." Or "I'm proud of you for telling XX that you don't like to pretend with guns. I bet that was hard."

But, if I want my son to continue to offer help to his sister, shouldn't I let him know that I noticed and appreciated it? How do I teach my daughter not to pull her brother's hair if I don't give her positive reinforcement when she is gentle?

I think if you're working on teaching a small child, letting her know when she's done what you wanted is fine - like your "yes, gentle" example. To me, that's useful information more than praise. But I've tried to stop myself from commenting on behavior I like once we're past the teaching phase. I sometimes find myself wanting to tell DD how kind and helpful it was for her to do something like run to the baby and try to entertain him when he was fussing. But I've realized that I don't need to. She obviously KNOWS it's kind and helpful and sees the value in being kind - that's why she did it. It's not as if she acted kindly by accident and needs me to point out how useful it was.

Do you think the only reason your son would want to help his sister is because he thinks you'll notice and appreciate it? Don't you really want him be helpful because he realizes how his behavior affects his sister? If he does something helpful and you tell him how you liked it, you're distracting him from the real reason to be helpful and encouraging him to think about how it will make you feel about him.


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## aprons_and_acorns (Sep 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
I think the harm in that kind of thing is that it gives kids the message that they're being evaluated - that you pay attention to whether or not they are good at singing/dancing/painting, and that being good at those things is something you value. What if kids could grow up (or at least get through early childhood) without being concerned with whether or not other people would consider them "good" at what they do? What if they could just enjoy singing/dancing/painting? Wouldn't that be cool?


I think that would be very cool.

After reading UP and reflecting on my own experiences, this is an easy concept for me to grasp. I know for other parents it is a lot harder and some reject it completely. Which is their choice, obviously there are many wonderful parents who do not subscribe to this philosophy. But for me and my family, it really feels right.


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## ejsmama (Jun 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
I wanted to say that I think some children are more susceptible to being praise junkies than others.

I think you are right on, and that as with all parenting techniques, styles, etc. we need to pay attention to the temperment of our own child and make mindful decisions. I also wanted to point out the even Kohn in his artical said that some amount of positive feedback may be necessary when teaching younger children (such as a 2 year old) certain skills. I will try to find the exact quote. And, again, the articles sited were not about not praising, they were about meaningful praise that is not manipulative, that builds self esteem rather than eroding it.


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## momileigh (Oct 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rowdypea* 
(trying not to praise here!) Your post is well thought-out and makes some points that seem very insightful. It was certainly worthwhile for me to read.











Thanks!


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:

I think it's a crock that telling your child 'good job' or 'I'm proud of you for trying/succeeding" teaches a child that they need to jump through hoops to get your love.
A lot of participants on this board do feel that _overly_praising is definitely an issue. I think to label this entire area of concern/study a "crock" is a bit off-putting, IMO. Everyone is entitled to their own respectful opinion. We're here to learn from each other. IME, deeper understanding doesn't easily occur when we dismiss others' beliefs as a crock.

It's not like we're making this stuff up about manipulative or over-praise. Many of us have lived it. I think it's a misinterpretation to think that heart-felt, authentic excitement and praise is inherently damaging or "bad." I don't think that's the discussion we're having









Quote:

Now if you were to ONLY say you're proud of them or love them when they succeed, THAT might cause problems.
_Might?_ I think it's safe to leave out the might









Peace!


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 
I don't see the problem with saying "Good job, honey. You're so smart!" when my son does something new or succeeds, especially considering he is too young to understand positive feedback.

I agree, your son is too young to really understand, my son is close in age and he wouldn't know the difference between "You're so smart!" and "You're so stout!" (also true).

However, I will say that this is the one thing I really try to never say. I personally think just the "Good job, honey!" is better than saying "You're so smart!" My mom used to say that to me, and I hated it. It never made me feel smart, it always made me feel more insecure. I thought, "Why did she say that? Was she really listening? Was she just being dismissive? Does she really think I'm that smart? If so, she must not know about that stupid thing I did last week. I better not let her find out."

I can see you feel pretty strongly about this, and I don't want to offend you, but I just wanted to point out that blanket statements like, "You're so smart!", "You're so artistic!", "You're such a sweet girl!", etc. have, IME, made me feel mostly worse instead of better. I'm sure this hasn't been everyone's experience, but it was mine.


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## momileigh (Oct 29, 2002)

What bothers me about some of the comments on here is that it is obvious that the people haven't done their homework before they disagree. If you want to disagree without reading the material that is suggested, fine, but at LEAST be respectful about it and recognize that you are coming from a somewhat ignorant standpoint. If you have read the material and you disagree, you are probably smart and educated enough to give good reasons why you disagree, without calling it a crock, or just stating, "I don't get it" as if that is a downfall of the theory itself.

That said, most of the people in here are so cool. It is obvious that many of us are working very hard to be better parents, and I just love that. My parents never ONCE read a parenting book or considered different viewpoints when it came to discipline (to my knowledge) and I feel kinda cheated in that. I am trying to heal my own childhood by being a better parent for my girls, and through that process I hope they'll be able to look back on their childhoods and be grateful for all the effort I put in, even if I don't do a perfect job.


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## aywilkes (Sep 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
Also, I used to thank my kids all the time. I ALWAYS thanked them for helping me in the grocery store. But one point that was brought up in this book was that when you thank your children, you're implying that the only reason to be patient in the grocery store is to help your mom. Or when they set the table, I'm thanking them because it's my job and they helped me by doing it. I think this is fine, sometimes, but I want my kids to feel more like they're part of a team. I want them to feel like we're all working together, and we can all contribute equally. I grew up on a ranch, and my parents really did depend on me. I really did contribute to the greater good, certainly not as much as they did, but in my own very important way. This was soooo good for my self-esteem, and I want my kids to have that feeling of being included contributors, too. So, I've been trying to substitute some of my thank yous with statements pointing out how quickly we got things done when we worked together, or something like that. I still do thank them quite a bit, but I'm at least more thoughtful about it now.
.

I guess I have a different take on this Thank you business. I keep a thankful journal and frankly it helps me focus on the good in my life. I think it is importnatn to show appreciation to all people - including your kids - in whatever natural way that happens. The word that naturally comes to my mind is thank you or i appreciate that x action. It really helped me alot. My 8 yr. old DS is 8 (almost 9) and if he hasn't learned about anything else, he knows about appreciation.

I think there is research to support anybody's theory on anything. Yes, Kohn may have done studies that show why praise isn't good. But, there are "experts" with other points of view that have done studies to validate their theories too. Some people need to be praised in order to do something good over and over again. Some people don't. I have certainly praised my son's acceptable behavior and let him know when it is unacceptable. And it might be a value judgement, but he needs to know what is right and wrong in the world that he lives in - which happens to be my home. Just like he will learn what is desirable and undesirable outside of the home - in school, activities, etc. He is almost 9 and he does postiive, helpful, "right" things when he wants to do them. I have seen (my own proven test in my household) how my positive attention to his positive behaviors (that were once the opposite) have encouraged him to keep it up. When he made a beautiful note the first time he brought home his clarinet, I said "wow, i like that nasir...that note really sounded beautiful). He didn't try to make it again right away - and i wasn't trying to get him to do so either. But he is STILL as excited about learning to play the clarinet as ever. So I beg to differ based on my own experience that all children will react in one way based on praise. Children are very different so there is no one way that works with everyone.

I just feel like if I need to tailor the way I state something all the time to say it "perfectly", then I will feel like a psychologist and it won't feel natural. I must also say that I encourage my son in other ways to do something because he enjoys it. I don't call him good or bad and I let him know after I tell him that he has done something acceptable that doing something "wrong" doesn't mean he is wrong. He and I have LOTS of little impromptu conversations about how he feels about his performance in one thing or another. But maybe this works better with a child in 4th grade than a 2 year old.


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## sparklefairy (May 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
I agree, your son is too young to really understand, my son is close in age and he wouldn't know the difference between "You're so smart!" and "You're so stout!" (also true).

However, I will say that this is the one thing I really try to never say. I personally think just the "Good job, honey!" is better than saying "You're so smart!" My mom used to say that to me, and I hated it. It never made me feel smart, it always made me feel more insecure. I thought, "Why did she say that? Was she really listening? Was she just being dismissive? Does she really think I'm that smart? If so, she must not know about that stupid thing I did last week. I better not let her find out."


I was an anxious kid, so that may have played in, but I remember hearing "you're so smart" and "good girl!" and feeling anxious when it wasn't said. Does it mean I'm dumb and bad now? How can people change so quickly? Aren't I the same person as I was when I got the answer right and when I remembered to hang up my coat?

My mom berated me for telling my kids that I "appreciate" something that they've done. She said they don't care at their ages. I don't agree. And I know that I cared when I was little.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

I meant that saying 'good job' will in and of itself result in a child that needs to jump through hoops for love is a crock. I stated in my post that I do feel overylypraising is an issue and that we have to balance things out. I never said the entire area of concern was a crock. For the record I have read material from both sides.

I don't think "Good job" or "You're smart!" are any better than the other. It never made me feel insecure. I think it depends on the child. I try not to say it dismissively, but energetically. I also tell him he's smart or that I'm proud of him for just no reason at all, when I'm feeling it. I think all kids are smart and good and see nothing wrong with saying that. However, I think there's a difference between saying "You're sweet!" and "That was sweet." Because the kid might be thinking "No, I'm not" because she did something not-so-nice earlier. There's a time and place.

Quote:

but I remember hearing "you're so smart" and "good girl!" and feeling anxious when it wasn't said.
Was it only said when you had succeeded? Were you told that when you failed as well, or just for no reason if mom just decided to come up for a hug and say "You're a good girl"?


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## mackysmama (Jan 11, 2005)

I wanted to thank the mamas who gave me real examples of how I could be saying things differently and explanations for the changes. I see and appreciate the difference, although it is very subtle at times (i.e. I liked the way you helped your sister vs. your sister made it down the step with your help.) Overall, I think I do pretty well at not overly praising but came to this thread to help move me along and keep me thinking. Thanks for helping.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momileigh* 
If you "don't get it" and you haven't read Unconditional Parenting, then no wonder. I read it and I still can't totally wrap my head around it. I need to read it again. It is a challenging read with very different ideas. If you have read it and you still feel the same way, nothing anyone says is likely to convince you and you may have to agree to disagree.

momileigh - it looks like you were referring to me in your post since you quoted my "don't get it" words. As you said, it is a challenging concept that often needs to get revisited (or re-read). So, it really isn't a wonder that I said I wasn't "getting" the subtle differences. And, I came to this thread with questions, which were wonderfully answered by the mamas here, not for convincing of any kind. Also, if you found the book to be a challenge then it would seem you would be more accepting that others might need some time, discussion, and reflection in order to wrap their heads around the "very different ideas."


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## momileigh (Oct 29, 2002)

Oh, no, I was actually quoting a different "don't get it." This one to be exact:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ejsmama* 
I also don't get the whole thing about praise being manipulation.

There is a lot of "not getting it" going around when you're dealing with such difficult concepts, IMO. I myself work very hard to "get it" and I have LOTS of understanding for people who are trying to "get it," as I am. I do NOT like it when people (not singling anyone out here) will just say, "I don't get it" and what they really mean is, "I think its stupid." (ie, when I say, "I don't get NASCAR, it really isn't a sport.")

Have I clarified myself? I *really* don't want to make it sound like I am judging parents who are trying, but just don't quite "get it" yet! I am so far from perfect, I wouldn't dare put anyone down who is trying. I only disapprove of people who won't even consider new ideas.


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## momileigh (Oct 29, 2002)

I should also add, mackysmama, that I thought your posts had some really good thought-provoking questions, and part of the reason I didn't address them myself is I don't feel quite qualified enough to answer them, because they are really in-depth questions. I too am wrestling with some of those same questions. So in a million years I wouldn't have intended to put you down in any way!


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## ejsmama (Jun 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momileigh* 
Oh, no, I was actually quoting a different "don't get it." This one to be exact:

Actually, you were quoting me, and in my following posts, I've made a very considered effort too get it. I was not saying "this is stupid". I'm sorry if my initial post offended or harmed anyone. I am a mom who is trying very very hard to "get it", and I am also one who is not going to accept something just because an expert says it is so. I have read the articles, and I realized it was wrong for me to respond strongly when I didn't truly understand the philosophy behind them. As I reflect on the whole argument, I agree with those who are saying that individual children respond differently depending on their temperment. I also agree with a PP who said that we can drive ourselves crazy always trying to make sure we are saying the right thing, and that we need to also be sure we are being natural.


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## momileigh (Oct 29, 2002)

Yes, I was quoting you there specifically, but I tried to make a distinction between you and the "this is stupid" comments (which I am NOT going to single out, and there have been a couple) by saying that I'm not singling anyone out. I never interpreted YOUR comments, ejsmama, as the "this is stupid" variety. They were two totally seperate original posts of mine, unrelated reactions to different people's posts. The person(s) I was a little irked by, I have not quoted or named, nor will I.


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## ejsmama (Jun 20, 2006)

Aw, thanks. I misunderstood. Pregnant, hormonal, oversensitive right now, and prone to reaction. I think I'm doing all my reacting here at the moment so as not to react to my DS.


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## momileigh (Oct 29, 2002)

Ah, well in that case, react away. I do that sometimes... project frustrations into cyberspace...


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momileigh* 
Back to praising kids, though. If every artist/musician/inventor relied on praise, we wouldn't have some of the greatest works of art, pieces of music, or inventions, of all time. If greatness lies in my kids, and I believe it does in some form that they must discover for themselves, then I want them to be able to tap into it and let it blossom, even if they get no praise or even if the world tries to discourage it! SO WHAT if someone doesn't rave about your painting... how do YOU feel about it? Is it worthwhile? Does it fulfill something in your soul?

That is so beautiful!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *darsmama*
I was really into learning about GD until I ran across how bad it was to praise kids. I lost interest there with the "Poisoned Carrots" article.
Like my mom said, seems every generation tries to rewrite how to raise kids.
With Darlene, she gets negative attention for doing something she knows she isn't to do (write on the walls) so I am going to be excited and praise her when she writes in her coloring book instead. Thats how babies learn, imo.

Imo, that's NOT how babies learn. Behaviorism is how pigeons and rats learn in science labs. Babies learn because they have an innate desire to behave in a socially acceptable manner. They learn because they are getting information about the world and what is acceptable and what isn't. Kids who are "taught" through behaviorism get that information, and learn in spite of the positive and negative reinforcement, not because of it.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ejsmama* 
So, here is an example of today: He was making a train and he said "Wow, mama, look at my train!" (do I have a praise junky in the making?) Instead of saying "good job" or "great train", I said "wow, you are really proud of that train. What is your favorite part of it?" He then went on and told me that he liked how Thomas was in the front and Henry was in the back. It was a much more meaningful conversation then "Cool train, Elijah" It took more thought on my part. So I think I do get this. It isn't about not being positive with him, it is about finding ways to share in his joy and letting him judge the outcome, not me.

Exactly! And I love the way you phrased that, so thoughtful and to the point


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moonfirefaery* 

I don't think "Good job" or "You're smart!" are any better than the other. It never made me feel insecure. I think it depends on the child. I try not to say it dismissively, but energetically. I also tell him he's smart or that I'm proud of him for just no reason at all, when I'm feeling it. I think all kids are smart and good and see nothing wrong with saying that. However, I think there's a difference between saying "You're sweet!" and "That was sweet." Because the kid might be thinking "No, I'm not" because she did something not-so-nice earlier. There's a time and place.

Ok, but how about giving him information without judgement, and letting HIM come to the conclusion that "I'm smart"?
Or sharing with him about how he set up the train track, and letting HIM come to the conclusion that he did a "good job"?
See what I mean? By telling a child he's smart, you are substituting YOUR judgement for his own.
And I gotta say, I wasn't as swayed by AK as others here. I get not praising because it manipulates children. But the rest, I understand but they are not that persuasive to me.
I don't praise because its behaviorism, and imo any type of behaviorism undermines a child's innate sociality. It interferes in natures way of making sure that humans can live in groups.

I gotta say, I'd rather see someone praising constantly than just "when they really deserve it" (and ftr, I'm saying you seem like the former







) At least then, it doesn't feel like "I'm only good when I do x." My grandma praises ds when he breathes. lol If he does it right, if he does it wrong, it's all good to her. lol (I'm exaggerating, of course. But not a lot. lol). It's annoying to me, but I'd much rather that, than she withold praise for something that he does that's really GREAT!


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## zeldamomma (Jan 5, 2006)

I haven't yet read UP







: , but here is where I have seen "over-praising": Sometimes I will see a parent using praising words with their kids, but what they really seem to be saying is "wow, I love having a kid who can do..."-- it isn't really about the child at all, and I think the kid can tell. These same parents tend to praise things the kid isn't terribly excited about, and seem unaware or even uninterested in how their kid responds to the praise. I aim to have a relationship with my kids where I don't have to be judging them for them to know I'm paying attention.


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## geekgolightly (Apr 21, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momileigh* 
Really? One person's opinion would make YOU think your painting was bad? What about how YOU feel about your own work?

I think your reaction is very telling. It is what may happen if kids rely too heavily on praise!

Of course, for adults, you might not say, "very yellow." But you might:

1. Instead of "Good job on that proposal," how about, "This proposal is well-thought out and thorough. This bar graph is especially clear and helpful."

2. Instead of "I love the way you washed the car without my nagging you," how about, "It was such a pleasure to drive a clean car today." (And I would add a thank you... but that's controversial so I left it out!)

3. Instead of "That painting is so great, I can hardly believe you painted it, I love it, fabulous!" how about, "Your painting is emotional for me, it makes me feel sad, in a nostalgic sort of way. I'd like to see more of your work."

So it does apply to adults as well, IMO.

Back to praising kids, though. If every artist/musician/inventor relied on praise, we wouldn't have some of the greatest works of art, pieces of music, or inventions, of all time. If greatness lies in my kids, and I believe it does in some form that they must discover for themselves, then I want them to be able to tap into it and let it blossom, even if they get no praise or even if the world tries to discourage it! SO WHAT if someone doesn't rave about your painting... how do YOU feel about it? Is it worthwhile? Does it fulfill something in your soul?


those arent neutral declarative statements. thats positive reinforcement. it just isn't generalized.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Quote:

Ok, but how about giving him information without judgement, and letting HIM come to the conclusion that "I'm smart"?
Or sharing with him about how he set up the train track, and letting HIM come to the conclusion that he did a "good job"?
See what I mean? By telling a child he's smart, you are substituting YOUR judgement for his own.
I think he can still decide for himself that he's smart. Knowing my opinion of him isn't going to make him incapable of forming his own opinion about himself. I know my mom's opinion of me...but mine is totally different, LOL. I understand how this can be helpful, especially with older children, but dealing with my own 15 month old, I'm not sure this is feasible. (I think he thinks he's smart regardless of my opinion already anyways, lol!) Besides you can always ask them "How do you feel about it?" before speaking.

Kid: Mommy, how did I do?
Mom: First, tell me how YOU think you did
Kid: I think I did ok. Maybe I could have done X better.
Mom: I think you did a good job, too! But I think you're right about doing X differently next time.

What's wrong with that?

Or
Kid: I don't think I did very good, because....
Mom: Did you try your best?
Kid: I think so.
Mom: Then it's good enough for me.








But next time, you should work on those things you mentioned. Then maybe you'll feel even better about it next time.

Or even

Mom: Did you try your best?
Kid: *hangs his head* Well, not really.
Mom: *smiles* Well, good job being honest. No, it's not very good honey, but that's only because you didn't try. I'm sure you will do a lot better if you try your best next time, because you are very creative/smart/whichever.

I can't do that with my kid yet, but I don't see how this couldn't work for an older kid. I don't see why praise from mom is going to equate to expecting praise from everyone. UNless he were to get praise from everyone everytime he did anything I don't see why it would be expected. I'm his mom. I think he should expect me to see the good in him.

Quote:

I'd rather see someone praising constantly than just "when they really deserve it" (and ftr, I'm saying you seem like the former
Well, I don't do it *constantly* but often. I do it when he succeeds, fails, or just when I suddenly have the urge. Let me tell you, he feels proud of himself already without me saying anything. He knows he's smart. You can just tell by his expression when he does something new that he's very proud, so I think that's why I don't see the harm in telling him that I'm proud, too. I praise him for failing, just because he tried. And, sometimes, I praise him just because. I don't think *constantly* is the right word. I don't follow him around going "Woohoo you made a poop, good job" and whatnot LOL

Quote:

At least then, it doesn't feel like "I'm only good when I do x."
But exactly, yes, that's what I'm saying. Praising ONLY when they succeed probably will teach that, but praising CONSTANTLY for every little thing is going to cause issues too. If you praise them, just because you're feeling like paying them a compliment, or to show you are proud when they succeed, or to encourage them for trying even when they fail, I don't see a problem with it. I think praise just has to be used appropriately.

There are times when I'll be watching him play, and he'll do something simple that just astounds me, and I'll just be filled with this overwhelming urge to say something nice to him, so I'll just be like "Mommy loves you Corbin. You're a good boy." Even when he does something that's not nice (he doesn't know any better yet), I'll show him how to do it and say something like "You're such a good boy. You want to show the dog you love her. But you know, Cookie likes it more when you pet her this way. It might hurt her to pull her ears." and then show him how. He's not learning he is only a good boy at certain times. He's learning that he's always a good boy, at least in my eyes, and that just because he does something that's inappropraite, it doesn't make him bad. To me, kids are just born good, and they are always good. I don't want my son to feel like he's bad because he's doing a certain thing. I do want him to know that thing isn't appropriate, but not that he's bad for doing it.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

I just don't find "good" all that descriptive or helpful.

Quote:

To me, kids are just born good, and they are always good. I don't want my son to feel like he's bad because he's doing a certain thing. I do want him to know that thing isn't appropriate, but not that he's bad for doing it
Right! Yes, ITA









For me personally though, I don't believe that telling them they are "good" for
doing certain things is all that helpful. Hearing You're Good! just doesn't mean all that much _to me_--doesn't provide that much information. IMO, that was kind, helpful, loving, gentle, patient, etc (things we can all probably agree would be considered "good" are just more descriptive than blanket "good boys." It's not a criticism--just my personal take


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## mackysmama (Jan 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momileigh* 
Have I clarified myself? I *really* don't want to make it sound like I am judging parents who are trying, but just don't quite "get it" yet! I am so far from perfect, I wouldn't dare put anyone down who is trying. I only disapprove of people who won't even consider new ideas.

Momileigh, thank you for clarifying. It was very helpful and reassuring. I also want to thank you for responding so thoughtfully and non-defensively. I want to apologize for not trusting that your post had the best of intentions - that was foolish. I am super sensitive on MDC these days and am navigating around with a trepedation that I didn't use to have (it seems there have been so many flaming threads lately and I've only been reading them







) Sorry to put that on you.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

You know, I've read Kohn, and I've thought about this a lot, and this is where I come down on it. I don't do, "You're so smart!" or "Good girl!" or "You make such beautiful paintings!" or stuff like that. I don't say "Good job throwing the ball!" when DD, for heaven's sake, is perfectly confident and happy and pleased all on her own throwing the ball.

But...I continue to express excitement and positive energy when DD does something she has balked on, insisted she could not do, said she didn't want to do, had a hard time cooperating with, etc.

In other words, I continue to praise (I choose words carefully, but I don't kid myself--I use a praising, happy tone, and DD knows it) when I feel DD is not intrinsically motivated or is hesitant. I feel that grown-ups often make what, to kids, must seem irrational, nonsensical, hard-to-follow demands. ("We have to leave the playground now because you have a dentist's appointment." "Don't touch that mangy stray cat, even though it's friendly." "Clean up your toys, even though you find it cozy and fun to have them all in a big pile around you.") When DD does as I have asked even though I know it goes against her instincts and desires, I do feel the need to thank her and let her know that I am grateful that she has helped me.

I also have a child who gives up easily and gets frustrated fast. We have found that if we do not use a little praise, encouragement and excitement, she will really not persist in many difficult or frustrating tasks. Now, I am careful about what I say--usually "I knew you could do it!" or "You did it all by yourself!" or "Hey, you kept trying!" or something, but if I don't say anything she will, yes, give up. I'm not as at ease with this, but I honestly don't know how else to handle this. Any suggestions are welcome.


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

I agree that good isn't that descriptive, but you can say "good" and then go on to use more descriptive terms. I think sometimes everyone needs a reminder that they are good, even if it's just in the eyes of one person.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loraxc* 
I also have a child who gives up easily and gets frustrated fast. We have found that if we do not use a little praise, encouragement and excitement, she will really not persist in many difficult or frustrating tasks. Now, I am careful about what I say--usually "I knew you could do it!" or "You did it all by yourself!" or "Hey, you kept trying!" or something, but if I don't say anything she will, yes, give up. I'm not as at ease with this, but I honestly don't know how else to handle this. Any suggestions are welcome.

Loraxc, I'm starting to discover that my son is like this, too. He's more extrinsically motivated than my dd, and he really picks up on tone of voice. Also, he's a slow talker, and since he started trying to talk he stopped using most of his signs, and just gesturing and saying the same syllable over and over, trying to make us understand until he can't take it anymore and falls apart. AND, he hates having to follow the rules. For example, he really hates to sit in his booster seat for an entire meal. Fine, I let him get down and come by and get a bite and cruise around some more. But now, he wants to take the dish with him and cruise around with that, spilling food all over the house, which I won't allow. Every single meal he tries to do this. I always put him back and explain, and he always gets mad.

Anyway, I've been trying to head this off with a more positive tone of voice, and by exclaiming, "Look at you! You're sitting at the table with me and we're eating our food together! I love eating with you." My voice is definitely praise-y. We also have this stupid Thomas push toy that has a detachable handle. He used to literally throw a tantrum every time the handle came out, even though I could put it right back in in about one second. Finally he started trying to put it back in himself, and even though it hardly ever works, I definitely show my enthusiasm for his effort.

So I don't know. I think he'll need more encouragement. I think he's more easily discouraged, partly because his sister always rushes in and helps him, and partly just because of his personality. But I don't know for sure if that's really "praise", or just trying to show enthusiasm. Anyway, I have nothing against that. I really have nothing against praise, either, just think there's different ways to do it that can have different effects. But then, I've never read Kohn, other than that article "Five Reasons to Stop Saying Good Job," which I didn't really like, to be honest.


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## ejsmama (Jun 20, 2006)

You know, I was reflecting on the Kohn artical today while I was at the park with DS. One thing I do take issue with is his description of parental involvement at the playground - parents following their kids around saying "good job, good job good job" for every little thing. Maybe this all depends on where you live, the socio economic status in your community, ect. But, my experience at the park with DS is that unless I am there with some of my good friends, most of the parents aren't following their kids around at all. They are, at best, sitting at a picnic table having a cigarette, talking on their cell phones and occasionally barking orders, or at worst, sitting in the car taking a nap while their 3 and 4 year olds beg me to push them on the swing (while I keep my eyes open for transients who tend to hang out there and make sure these other kids are safe and not wandering off - we have a really high transient sex offender population in our county)

At least in the world that I am living in right now, I'd much rather see parents over praise than what I'm seeing on a regular basis, and I think I tend to overcompensate by praising the heck out of my kid and every kid I spend time with because the reality of so many of their lives is just so heartbreaking.

I am finding Kohn's concept very helpful to make my interactions more meaningful with my son, but I find myself wondering whose kids Kohn was studying. There are a lot of kids in this world who desperately need some positive adults in their lives, and if those adults over do the praise, it certainly is better than what they are getting now.

I also would note that Kohn is basing some of his theory on research done in a classroom setting, not in a home setting which is very different. Just a thought.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ejsmama* 
You know, I was reflecting on the Kohn artical today while I was at the park with DS. One thing I do take issue with is his description of parental involvement at the playground - parents following their kids around saying "good job, good job good job" for every little thing. Maybe this all depends on where you live, the socio economic status in your community, ect. But, my experience at the park with DS is that unless I am there with some of my good friends, most of the parents aren't following their kids around at all. They are, at best, sitting at a picnic table having a cigarette, talking on their cell phones and occasionally barking orders, or at worst, sitting in the car taking a nap while their 3 and 4 year olds beg me to push them on the swing (while I keep my eyes open for transients who tend to hang out there and make sure these other kids are safe and not wandering off - we have a really high transient sex offender population in our county)

This is a good point. There was a post on here recently with a link to an article about how we coddle our kids too much, about how they need to separate from themselves and shouldn't be calling us on their cel phones all the time after they go off to college. I think it was from Psychology Today or something.

Anyway, I know a lot of people who have recently read Hold Onto Your Kids might disagree. It's hard to find the middle ground, that's for sure. And I've heard people complain a lot about talking on your cell phone while at the park with your kids, yet I used to do that all the time when I was home with my dd alone for 12+ hrs a day. I felt like at least that way she was entertained, and I saved a little of my sanity. AND, my sister, who is in the process of adopting from China, was telling me about an article she read recently about how children who had been understimulated may need additional praise when playing with you, to encourage that part of their brain.

Sorry, just rambling here now, I guess. It's interesting, though.


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## ejsmama (Jun 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
I've heard people complain a lot about talking on your cell phone while at the park with your kids, yet I used to do that all the time when I was home with my dd alone for 12+ hrs a day.

I totally understand that, and didn't mean to paint a picture of horrible cell phone talking mommies. I talk on my phone sometimes too, but am very careful to make sure I am still close to him and watching him, ready to intervene if he needs me.


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## Canadianmommax3 (Mar 6, 2006)

I rarely received praise that i can remember, both my parents were teachers. If i did get a good grade on a test i might hear that's good now let's get that all the time. Or i remember drawing my stepmother a picture of a person but for some reason i didn't give him any feet, she said good drawing but where are his feet!! I just wanted to say could you just be happy for what i did not what i didn't do?
I believe i am not 'good' at anything, one of the reason's for not driving is i am too scared of failing. I am very insecure, i think myself ugly and fat, i am not smart.









These above reason's are why i try to always make sure i tell my kids they are awesome, they did a great job, i appreciate them emptying the dishwasher. and so on. So i may screw them up anyways with my praise but they won't feel the way i do i hope!!

just my 2 cents


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## momileigh (Oct 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *geekgolightly* 
those arent neutral declarative statements. thats positive reinforcement. it just isn't generalized.

I don't know where you are coming from on this. Are you saying that you thought my ideas were examples of praising in the negative sense? Are you saying that all praise is equal? Are you saying that all praise is an attempt to manipulate? Are you saying that we should try to be MORE neutral, or are you assuming that I think we ought to be neutral but I'm really not doing it?

I think a lot of people think that "not praising"=always being negative or totally neutral. NO ONE HERE IS ADVOCATING THAT. No one is saying that you should only say, in a monotone voice, "You are wearing blue shorts. Your room is clean. You are playing now." Like some kind of uncaring robot. Enthusiasm and joy are absolutely key in interacting with your kids. The point is not to use judgmental language and not to use praise to manipulate behavior. I don't think my examples did either, but if you think they did, I'm all ears.


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## mackysmama (Jan 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Canadianmommax3* 
I believe i am not 'good' at anything, one of the reason's for not driving is i am too scared of failing. I am very insecure, i think myself ugly and fat, i am not smart.








































Quote:


Originally Posted by *Canadianmommax3* 
These above reason's are why i try to always make sure i tell my kids they are awesome, they did a great job, i appreciate them emptying the dishwasher. and so on. So i may screw them up anyways with my praise but they won't feel the way i do i hope!!

It sounds like your kids are lucky to have you as their mama!


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

Shannon, I didn't receive a lot of praise either, but I did get SO much criticism. I think, like you, that is why I always tell my child that I am proud of him, that he is awesome, etc. I will give constructive criticism when need be, and I do discipline him...but I do think your interactions with your parents have a lot to do with self-esteem, based on my experience. I think we can have a negative or positive impact--or not much at all on their self-esteem. We need to teach them to feel good about themselves for themselves, but they need to know we feel good about them, too!


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Canadianmommax3* 
I rarely received praise that i can remember, both my parents were teachers. If i did get a good grade on a test i might hear that's good now let's get that all the time.

That is not the same thing AT ALL as most of us non-praising mama's here do. That's manipulative not-so-much-praise. I actually am not really sure what that is.
But I get where your motivation is coming from.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *geekgolightly*
those arent neutral declarative statements. thats positive reinforcement. it just isn't generalized.

But the difference between those statements and "praise" is that those describe exactly how someone's actions affect YOU. Not your evaluation of their "job." I totally see the difference.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Bumping.

Pat


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## FLmom_3 (Jan 13, 2007)

OK - I'm really trying here but not so much getting it either. I understand the obvious statements that have been made here but when I think of the actual situations I encounter throughout the day (think that may be what the pp meant about the classroom vs. home life), it begins to feel like a blurry gray area to me where I can't determine.

Example 1: My 8 year old gets new heelies (sp?) for Christmas. She wanted them for so long and was SO excited. She immediately puts them on and rushes out to try them out - expecting, of course, to hit the garage and immediately be able to roll all the way down the driveway&#8230;&#8230;which we all know didn't happen. She, like the pp mentioned of their child, has a difficult time with motivation and gives up quickly with the "I can't do it" and talked about how great all her friends were at it. Now, I had a talk with her explaining how trying something different may help, if the first way she tried didn't work (if your leg didn't work in this position, try holding your foot a bit higher, etc.), and how she may see the others who she feels are great at it now, but she doesn't know how many times they may have fallen just as she did, or how many times they had to try before they were able to do it well - I'm trying with all my might to help her to rationalize and put things in perspective BEFORE she dismisses herself like _others are magically capable and she isn't_, and throws her hands up to quit. I'm new at this, so bare with me. Needless to say, attempt after attempt and she is finally able to do it for that first time, she is SO excited, as am I.

My reaction: Big hug when she runs to me, of course, but followed with, "Aren't you glad you didn't give up? I'm SO proud of you for continuing to try!" (excitement ringing in my voice, I'm sure) I felt I was doing the right thing by pointing out that she didn't give up and also encouraging her to continue to try. I felt she was learning by her own actions that she is able to do more if she tries. Also, I was genuinely SO PROUD and felt she is beginning to overcome a big obstacle (not the skate-shoes but the giving up issue) but am not sure whether I was doing the right thing as far as "praising" goes.

Example 2: Potty training: difficult time getting 3 year old to use potty. Sometimes she did, sometime she didn't, etc. I think the "yeah!!!" and all the big deal that is/was made to help her learn to use the potty was in fact, manipulating, using encouragement. I just wouldn't know how else to do it in that situation. BUT, after she FINALLY (we started this at age 2!) got it, after a year & ½ of trying, I was again truly proud (and OH so glad lol). I told her I was proud and mentioned how she was becoming such a big girl! That is a huge milestone and is a step toward becoming a "big girl", right?

I have a tendency to overanalyze (OCD! - lol) and I'm just a little confused, I think. Thanks!


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I hear how genuinely excited that you are that your daughter had accomplished what she was attempting to do. And that you were delighted to share your excitement with her. My perspective about "I am proud of you for xyz" is that *you* (the parent) are the subject of your expression of excitement. *Your* feelings are the focus. "Wow! Aren't you proud of yourself?" or "You look so happy/proud/excited to be skating!" or "You did it!!" express *sharing her* excitement, or reflecting her joy/accomplishment/feelings back without the spotlight on your feelings/judgement. "Proud" is a judgment expression, imo. In these statements *she* is the subject. Does that help?

Another issue is the 'proud for doing something you couldn't do, kept trying, didn't quit' agenda is a societal construct. For instance, I took guitar lessons as a child. I never could quite do it and really wanted to stop, but was encouraged to 'keep at it', 'can't quit', 'try a little more/harder/longer', etc. The issue, in reflection was that the body, neck and strings of the guitar were not suited to my smaller hand and build. As an adult, I made modifications to the equipment and have been easily able to play the guitar. "Keeping at it" wasn't what I needed, imo. The sense of "inability" caused me to believe that "I couldn't", despite my efforts. I would have preferred acknowledgment and support for the specific challenges, rather than encouragement for overcoming them with pure effort. I am not suggesting that you didn't offer supportive help.







The point is "not quiting" is a goal that I don't embrace. If it isn't fun, I don't want to feel only "proud of myself" if I keep being unsuccessful, miserable, in pain, frustrated, etc. despite my efforts. I'd rather find something more suited to my need for either socially "fitting in", or my own enjoyment. As adults, if we don't like scuba diving due to claustrophobia, or high diving due to fear of heights, or kitting due to manual dexterity challenges, we just choose not to do those things. It isn't considered "quiting", it is just 'I don't much like that, so I don't do it. And we find something we enjoy doing, instead.'

For the potty training. I didn't have an agenda of ds using the toilet, so he just went when he was ready. There wasn't any sense of "accomplishment" about it any more than being able to go down the slide, walk up the stairs, pull his shirt on/off, jump on one leg, pump his legs while swinging, etc. If he is excited, I celebrate with him. But, I trust that he'll accomplish the skills when he is able, so there is no "milestone" "ta-da" that happens. If he struggles with doing something _which he initiates wanting to do_, such as pouring water into a cup without spilling, _and he is excited_, I am delighted with him!! Again, the focus is on his own experience of his efforts, not mine.

HTH, Pat


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## jaidymama (Jun 18, 2005)

I'm subbing here... and also wanted to thank Pat for her last post. I agree with what you are saying. Perhaps, like most theories, specifics can get lost... I like your clarification that you DO celebrate achievements with your child if it is something that your child is celebrating.

I have seen with my own ds that we feel excited as parents when our dc does something for the first time because it is amazing to see (especially, perhaps, for a first time parent)... but I try to think about my child's perspective... he doesn't realize about his own growth and learning... I just try to follow his lead about his own excitement and his own feelings of success.

Another thing to consider is that this is a skill we have to practice when our children become adults (or so I would imagine because that's how I want my parents to respond to me).


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## pastelprincess (Dec 18, 2006)

This is just silly.

The way I look at it is that I do whatever feels right for me and does right for my children.

Don't believe everything that every "so-called" expert spews out as the philosophy-of-the-day

pp


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## Aeress (Jan 25, 2005)

Ahh...I have a praise junky in my house, my DH! He wants me to jump for joy, give him hugs and kisses for doing the dishes. Yes, I am glad the dishes are done but they are part of keeping up a house. Did he feel good about doing them? No. He did them becuase they had to get done. Yet, he needs this external recognition of his job which to me is praise.

Nope, we don't praise in our house. My DH is the reason why I just don't see why I need to praise. He has a very poor sense of how he feels about accomplishments and disasters becuase he was always told how to feel.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

Quote:

Ahh...I have a praise junky in my house, my DH! He wants me to jump for joy, give him hugs and kisses for doing the dishes. Yes, I am glad the dishes are done but they are part of keeping up a house. Did he feel good about doing them? No. He did them becuase they had to get done. Yet, he needs this external recognition of his job which to me is praise.
Yep, ditto. Tho to be fair, I think both he and I are praise junkies. I try very hard not to pass that legacy onto my kids


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## gwynthfair (Mar 17, 2006)

Ah...reading. I miss that.









I haven't read UP, though I did check it out from the library once!

Anyway, I find this topic really fascinating. I remember when my mother would make a huge deal out of it if I helped clean something around the house. It always irritated me, and made me not want to do it. I don't know why. I guess it just felt condescending or something.

This whole thread is really making me reflect on my childhood.


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## FLmom_3 (Jan 13, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WuWei* 
Another issue is the 'proud for doing something you couldn't do, kept trying, didn't quit' agenda is a societal construct. For instance, I took guitar lessons as a child. I never could quite do it and really wanted to stop, but was encouraged to 'keep at it', 'can't quit', 'try a little more/harder/longer', etc. The issue, in reflection was that the body, neck and strings of the guitar were not suited to my smaller hand and build. As an adult, I made modifications to the equipment and have been easily able to play the guitar. "Keeping at it" wasn't what I needed, imo. The sense of "inability" caused me to believe that "I couldn't", despite my efforts. I would have preferred acknowledgment and support for the specific challenges, rather than encouragement for overcoming them with pure effort. I am not suggesting that you didn't offer supportive help.







The point is "not quiting" is a goal that I don't embrace. If it isn't fun, I don't want to feel only "proud of myself" if I keep being unsuccessful, miserable, in pain, frustrated, etc. despite my efforts. I'd rather find something more suited to my need for either socially "fitting in", or my own enjoyment. As adults, if we don't like scuba diving due to claustrophobia, or high diving due to fear of heights, or kitting due to manual dexterity challenges, we just choose not to do those things. It isn't considered "quiting", it is just 'I don't much like that, so I don't do it. And we find something we enjoy doing, instead.'
HTH, Pat

I feel the need to clarify. I, by no means, push her to do things she doesn't want or like to do but do encourage her to at least make an effort and try. I understand what you are saying, as I too was pushed to do many activities as a child. We are talking about two very different scenarios on this though. I'm not meaning she quits because she isn't good at something or doesn't like it. The problem we have with her is effort.

If she says "I can't do it!", we discuss her efforts and have talked with her about how she may be good at something that others aren't, and vise versa - we went on to have a silly conversation about how plain the world would be if all did everything as well as everyone (this became a VERY silly game-like conversation about her favorite singers, etc). I have been careful not to make her feel she can do anything if she tries long or hard enough - I realize what that could do to her self esteem if she truly couldn't do it. However, very rarely does someone "get" anything on the first try and she is right, she definitely will "never be able to do it" if we do everything for her before she's really made an effort. I am not talking about expectations beyond her level; I mean everyday activities. So, "I can't" really means "someone do it for me" with her lately. This applies to washing hair, tidying her room, playing video games, putting clothes back on the hanger, etc. I realize some is typical child, (When told she needed to tidy her room one day before going out to play, she literally pushed things from the middle of the floor against the wall and came and told me it was "clean" because you could see the floor. I found this funny and was not one of the things I am concerned about) but some of the issues, I fear, will lead to her never being independent if I allow her to believe she really can't do anything on her own. My younger brother was a little slower in learning - excuses were made if he couldn't do something the first try and to this day, he will not make many decisions on his own and calls the whole family complaining about his problems but won't make an effort to change or fix them. He isn't looking for advice, he's waiting for someone to come "fix it" for him. His family suffers because of it and I do not want her feeling she has to depend on others for everything. He is capable of doing many things; he was just never given the chance.

Anyway, with that clarified (I think I said what I was trying to say, anyway) I do see what you are talking about in the difference in wording - it does make sense and would probably get the point across to her that I am trying to make in a way that will last longer. I was trying to encourage her to make more of an effort in things but do agree it will be more of a lesson she's taught herself that she can carry with her through life than an approval thing, if it is worded differently.

As for the potty-training, the first 2 children started at age 2. The first had no problems and was done within a week. The second had issues at bedtime but we worked through that and let it happen in time. The third just did not seem to get it try after try and it definitely would've been easier on me to give her the opportunity to do when she was ready, but she has to attend daycare 2 days a week and in the 3 year old room, all had to be potty trained by January for them to keep them. I really felt I was at a point to try whatever worked. We waited on a list for 6 months for her to even have an opening at the center and could not afford to let it go (daycares STAY booked and there are no in-home sitters that don't cost a FORTUNE here).


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

My son is at an age where he is trying a lot of new things. He doesn't always get it right the first time, and sometimes he gets frustrated. When he hears me say in an encouraging, confident, loving voice "You can do it, honey. You keep trying," it's like he has a whole new burst of determination. Sometimes we need reassurance, and our inner selves aren't always going to give it to us. He gets up, he tries again, and usually the second or third time he succeeds. If he fails and is ready to give up, I say "Oh well. You tried really hard. You're going to get it one day." He may not understand me, but he understands my tone. Support comes in all languages and doesn't need specific words to make itself known. For the record, before anyone decides to tell me that must mean my son is dependant upon me for encouragement and praise, my son manages to do things by himself all the time without me cheering him on and seems proud of himself, grins, laughs, and claps his hands all on his own without me saying a thing.


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## jaidymama (Jun 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pastelprincess* 
This is just silly.

The way I look at it is that I do whatever feels right for me and does right for my children.

Don't believe everything that every "so-called" expert spews out as the philosophy-of-the-day

pp


Ok, so a little off topic.... I think most parents here are trying to do what they think is best for their children and families. A lot of parents are trying to parent differently from their own experience as a child and therefore are looking for external sources of information as a way to guide their interactions with their kids. For me, these resources have validated my ideas and given me suggestions for things I have no answers for.

Maybe these examples seem tedious but people who are raising their children gently may have a higher need for resources to guide their actions because it is not a typical approach to parenting in mainstream America.

Back on topic:
As for the problem with Praise... well there was an article last year in Mothering magazine where a mom discussed the problem she was having with one of her child's teachers... here's the link
http://www.mothering.com/articles/gr...ss_praise.html

Peace,
Heidi


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## moonfirefaery (Jul 21, 2006)

That was a great article, very thorough and completely hit the nail on the head.


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## nina_yyc (Nov 5, 2006)

I haven't read UP, and my DD is too young for me to have BTDT, but I found this thread really interesting and I'm going to put my $0.02 in there anyway.

First of all, I think the point of the whole issue is to avoid manipulating your children. None of the experts in the linked articles were suggesting that you shouldn't support and appreciate your children's achievements. Just don't try to manufacture emotions or opinions because you think that's how you're 'supposed' to relate to kids.

Second point - about the 'neutral declarative' statements working on adults - though I agree that the ones posted weren't neutral, neutral statements DO work on adults. If you work in a creative, collaborative profession, sometimes it's the only way to save your job (I used to be a video editor.) Imagine saying to a client, "That adds a lot of length to the piece" instead of "I don't like your idea." Now I realize that I'm talking about avoiding criticism instead of avoiding praise, and the relationship is different, but what I'm trying to say is that I've seen firsthand how not making value judgements opens the door to productive discussions.

I just hope I can remember that when my DD gets a little older...right now I'm saying things like "good poop!"


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## ktmama (Jan 21, 2004)

Just want to chime in a bit because I have one of those nine year olds who has trouble trying and failing - wants to be great at everything right away. I think part of it is the age (comparing herself to others) and part of it is (honestly) a history of over-praising. Now, I really do try to give her a "reality check" when she wants to quit something. I use something from her own experience, like when she kept trying and trying to do a back hip circle on the bars even though ALL her friends learned the skill before she did. How did it feel to finally go around the bar without dropping? Were you happy you kept at it or did it feel empty - too much work for too little result? I also tell her if she feels that she's put in enough effort on something and is ready to move on, she can and she can also always come back to something.

I was at a play area with my dd2 the other day and I must admit how empty the "good jobbing" feels after hearing it 1,000 times in an hour. At this point (almost 18 months), I try to help her name her feelings more than anything. I say stuff like, "you look so happy to be going down the slide" or "is the slide fun?" but not "good job going down the slide, honey".

Oh, and FWIW, I wish my parents would have *pushed* me AND praised me more or helped me figure out how to praise myself.


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