# Do you think we should talk about this?



## SweetTeach (Oct 5, 2003)

I read starfairy's response in Wilker's thread about the characterization of stillbirths vs miscarriages and I think this could/should be it's own thread.

*What are your thoughts/feelings about the characterization of your loss as one vs the other?
*Do you feel like one is "worse" than the other? If so, in what ways?
*Do you think other people feel a certain way about your loss? How does that make you feel?

For me, I always get the feeling that women who've had miscarriages think (actually they have told me) that my loss is much worse than theirs, and in some ways I think it is, and in other ways I think it's not.

I think this is a pretty touchy/painful subject to bring up but I have to be honest, I feel like it's under the surface in a lot of people's minds (including my own) and maybe we should just talk about it openly and honestly. That is, if we haven't already done that here (considering I've only been on MDC for a few months).

ETA: I just re-read this post and I think I sound like a closet shrink or something! Sorry ladies, I'm having an introspective moment...


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## Mom2baldie (Oct 29, 2002)

Well I didnt read the other thread where this is being discussed as I am usually lacking time but wanted to share my thoughts on this. These are only *my* feelings and are not meant to offend or hurt anyone.

I do feel that a stillbirth is much worse than a miscarriage (or maybe just my miscarriage). I miscarried at 12.5 weeks. I never felt movement or even heard the heartbeat. Although I did LOVE that baby, I didnt have as long to love her and be excited about her, as someone who had a stillbirthed baby would have. I just think it would be even harder and more terrible the farther along you get because your feelings have had longer to grow and youve had more experiences with the baby (maybe a sonogram, hearing the heartbeat, buying baby clothes, feeling movement...).

I personally could never even compare the two. I have a friend who has had a stillbirth and 2 miscarriages. Its like she doesnt even consider the miscarriages as losses. I feel very uncomfortable talking to her about my last baby because I dont want her to think I am saying my miscarriage was as painful as her daughters death at 40 weeks inutero. I dont want to offend her.

As far as how everyone else feels about my miscarriage - noone really cares or remembers. People that I thought were my friends didnt even call afterward to see how I was doing and I was DEVESTATED about it. No one remembered her due date. Everyone thought I should just get over it within a few days. It makes me sick. I would/will NEVER let someone go through that alone.

The more I think about it though, maybe I just have these feelings because everyone else discounted my experience so I am doing the same thing to myself.

Anyways, I hope what Ive said doesnt make anyone mad or upset with me...


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## wilkers8 (Mar 22, 2004)

I apologize if I at all offended anyone with a miscarriage (I had put in my post that was not my intention). Here is something that I had responded within my post to StarFairy (I've updated parts to fit this discussion):

I was unaware that there is a difference in weeks in some states (some 20, some 18, etc). However, my point was not so much of the loss being a stillbirth versus a miscarriage as much as what was invested. I completely agree that feeling the kicking, water breaking, packing on the pounds, etc...is what I meant by being a little worse. I won't be just making it through the first 12 weeks of stress regarding losing this baby...I know now full to well that anyone could have a stillborn at any point in their pregnancy. After reading your post, it's completely obvious how hurtful assuming a 2nd trimester miscarriage (at 18 weeks) is not as big of a deal as a stillbirth. The very things that I'm referring to you had experienced. I'm sure there are things that someone at 40 weeks experienced that I didn't, which makes me think their loss is a little harder. Maybe the loss shouldn't be categorized by miscarriage versus stillbirth but by trimester loss.

So I'm not trying to trivialize a first trimester loss or a second trimester loss and implying that they are not hard. That's not even close to the point. I think I'm learning in going through my grief that I have more things to deal with than some of the people who discuss their first trimester loss (labor differences, body changes, feeling the baby, etc). That I don't have as much to deal with as someone who had a loss a full term (entire body changes, baby shower, completely setup nursery, etc).

I hope this makes sense and I didn't just offend more people. Maybe I should just keep to posting about my journey through dealing with Connor's loss.


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## ksjhwkr (Apr 1, 2003)

I haven't had a miscarriage or a stillbirth, but my daughter died at 8 months of age. I've had people say that my loss is so much greater than theirs. I think that the only way that it is different, is that I know what I am missing. By that I mean, I know what it was like to hold my baby. I know what her personality was, I have pictures and video of her.
I think though, that a loss is a loss. I really don't think you can say one persons loss is greater than anothers. You don't know how each person feels individually. I think sometimes that becuase I have pictures, I have memories, I have videos of my Emma, that my loss isn't as hard as those who never got to see their babies, or got to hold them, or got to see their eyes.
Doesn't matter when your loss occured, you are still a Mother who has lost a baby.
Just my two cents.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

hmmm, this is a tough one. I think when it comes down to it a loss is a loss. I think there are worse and better aspects about each stillbirth and miscarriage. I too tend to say a still birth would be so much worse than a miscarriage, then sometimes I think, but at least they knew their baby longer, at least they felt him/her kick, they knew the sex and could name the babe and the big one, they got to hold him/her. Oh what I would give to hold one of my babies, even for just a moment. Another difference would be the fact that people knew you were pregnant, so at least in the beginning maybe they understand your emotional state.
That said, having to tell people I'm not close to that my baby died, would kill me. Having baby gifts and a decorated nursery would kill me. Knowing my child only to loose him--how much more devastating could something be?
Now that I have given more questions than answers, I think I'll shut up now


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## ksjhwkr (Apr 1, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mom2baldie*
As far as how everyone else feels about my miscarriage - noone really cares or remembers. People that I thought were my friends didnt even call afterward to see how I was doing and I was DEVESTATED about it. No one remembered her due date. Everyone thought I should just get over it within a few days. It makes me sick. I would/will NEVER let someone go through that alone.

The more I think about it though, maybe I just have these feelings because everyone else discounted my experience so I am doing the same thing to myself. (

Oh sweet Mama,


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## starfairy (Apr 3, 2003)

I wasnt offended at all.

I absolutely admit I am sensitive about this topic!
I did have 8 miscarraiges other than my 2nd trimester loss. The first one sent me in a depression for 6 months! But nothing compared to the loss I had in my second trimester. What is worse is that my Dr was so inexperienced (I did not know it at the time) to the point of negligence. She sent me home to deliver. Apparently she had no clue. I searched online desperate for information on second trimester loss & there was virtually nothing. I had no clue my water was going to break or anything. Of course part of it might have been the daze from finding out he had died...

I absolutely agree that the further along you are the more difficult. Of course it is. The further you get, the more real it becomes. The more you believe everything will be okay.

I just know that this loss was far more for me than any other loss I had.
I have had people say it was no big deal, had people say I wasnt that far along. But none of these people have gone through what I went through.

I also think maybe on a board like this where women come for comfort maybe we dont need to define a loss as worse than another. Women in pain dont need to feel as though their pain is being minimized - we get that enough IRL.

I think we all know inside that not all losses are equal. But to say that my loss is worse than yours kind of minimizez anothers pain. I think we all know when another has suffered a greater loss. But we all still need a place to shed our tears.

well, I need to get going... I wasnt offeneded at all, just wanted to share my perspective.


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## SweetTeach (Oct 5, 2003)

I'm surprised there were replies already! I'm glad that people felt like they could post their honest opinions about this- even if some people's feelings will be hurt. It's clear that none of us here have malicious intentions, so I don't think anyone should apologize for what your opinions/feelings are.

I wasn't asking anyone to define their losses as better or worse, I was asking people if you actually feel that way already, or have had other people make statements about it. I also agree that people minimize our losses, depending on what they are, but we also minimize our own losses for ourselves. Maybe it's a defense mechanism we have.

Personally I feel like a late term loss is worse than any other loss on a physical level. Beyond that, it all comes up as really painful, just in different ways.

Quote:

I never felt movement or even heard the heartbeat.
That sounds very hard to me.

Quote:

Another difference would be the fact that people knew you were pregnant, so at least in the beginning maybe they understand your emotional state.
I think it would be very hard if I didn't have this. I had a funeral for ds and his life has been acknowledged (and continues to be) in a very public way for me. People don't expect me to "be over it" at all, 5 1/2 months later.

I also cherish my birth experience. I feel thankful that I know what it feels like to give birth.

I think it's awful that in any subsequent pregnancies, my "relax" date will be 37 weeks into it. Which obviously means that there will be no relaxing.

I guess part of my point for starting this thread is what many of you have said, our losses are very individual, complicated and painful and it's important that we recognize that both for others and for ourselves in how we think about them.

ksjhwkr and starfairy: I'm so sorry for your losses.


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## gossamer (Feb 28, 2002)

I have heard it said before and I tend to agree that the worst loss is yours because it happened to you. In some ways I was very blessed. I knew I was having a little girl, I got to see her yawn and kick on the Ultrasound, I got to feel her kick in my tummy.

BUt my husband never got to feel her kick, I didn't get to feel her flip around, I couldn't really feel her from the outside, I didn't have that long to get to know her.

Am I more fortunate, because I didn't have all that time to bond and then lose her, or am I less fortunate because I never got to experience any of that with her. WHose to sya? SOme in my exact same situation might feel more or less blessed than I do, but I reiterate that the worst lost is yours because it happened to you.
Gossamer


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## Katana (Nov 16, 2002)

I think there are so many variables when discussing a loss. And, as Gossamer touched on, each loss is so personal, and so individual to the person doing the losing. I don't like to compare losses by what day it was, or what week it was, or whatever. Grief is grief, sadness is sadness, loss is loss. I would never even try to judge the depth of grief from any type of loss, whether it's two weeks or 42 weeks.

I've had three losses, two before having my ds and dd, and then one since. They've all been between 6-8 weeks, and I have felt that they weren't really that important to anyone but me. I don't talk about them IRL, because I am surrounded by people who do think, that wasn't even a loss, or get over it, or some other kind of hurtful thing like that. I don't begrudge anyone for thinking that, I just prefer to spare myself extra grief by being vulnerable.

The last one, after having my son and daughter was horribly hard. Because I knew what I was missing. No, I never felt the kicks, or the turns, or any of that, but I had an idea of what it would felt like, because I remember what ds and dd felt like. I had hard contractions for two days before I miscarried, and it was just like being in labor.

I was so angry about that. I had a harder labor to lose an 8-9 week pregnancy than I did with my daughter. It was so unfair and hard to understand.

I think all losses are horrible and hard, and I wish no had to know what any of it felt like.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

The labor for my first miscarriage was just terrible, but I think the difference is more in the fact that you have nothing to look forward to, whereas in birth you have endorphins and just keep looking at the finish line.
My first m/c was so hard physically that I didnt' have the courage to do it naturally again, I opted for the d&c.


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## iris0110 (Aug 26, 2003)

I have been thinking about this alot lately, and I have gone back and forth. It all started in my mind when I was having my pre-op apointment with the Ob who would be handling my D&C. She said "I reviewed your chart and I see that this all started with a miscariage at 20 wks in December." It just made me so mad. I informed her that my daughter had been born still in December at 22 weeks. I spent alot of time thinking about why what she said made me so angry, and I have come to the conclusion that it wasn't so much her calling my loss a miscariage that upset me. I think it was more the way she seemed to be demeaning my loss. Like me daughter didn't exist or wasn't important. The fact that she couldn't even get her gestational age right really added to my anger.

Then I look at some of the other things that have happened recently. My mom's friend at work delivered her daughter early at 22 weeks. Riley lived for 6 weeks in the NICU before sucumbing to an infection. This happened shortly before I lost Arawyn. As I thought about it I thought her loss must be so much worse than mine because she had to watch her daughter suffer in the NICU for 6 weeks only to have her die. But at the same time, she had 6 weeks with her daughter that I never had with mine. Then just recently Dh's cousin died in a car crash. Dh's family has been treating the loss of his cousin as so much more than my loss. Like his aunt losing her daughter was more important than my losing mine. His aunt even said that her loss was greater because she had 13 yrs invested in her daughter. But when I look at it I think she is lucky. She has 13 yrs of memories, of "I love you Mom," and favorite toys. She has videos and pictures, first steps and first teeth. I don't have that. I have a few pictures, that no one but myself and a few other people want to look at.

In the long run I don't think one loss is greater than another, just different. I am sure there are some women who miscarry who don't see it as such a big thing. And I am sure there are some who experience it just as deeply as I experienced the loss of my daughter. My grief was compounded by my health problems stemming from my loss. But I know many of you have had your greif compounded in other ways, such as infertility, multiple losses, or just a lack of a good support network. I don't think the timing of the loss has as much to do with the depth of the loss, as the way the mother, and family percieve the loss, the amount of planning and investment that went into the pregnancy. That kind of investment can't be measured in days or weeks, it is measured in the hearts of mothers and fathers.


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## SweetTeach (Oct 5, 2003)

Quote:

In the long run I don't think one loss is greater than another, just different. I am sure there are some women who miscarry who don't see it as such a big thing. And I am sure there are some who experience it just as deeply as I experienced the loss of my daughter. My grief was compounded by my health problems stemming from my loss. But I know many of you have had your greif compounded in other ways, such as infertility, multiple losses, or just a lack of a good support network. I don't think the timing of the loss has as much to do with the depth of the loss, as the way the mother, and family percieve the loss, the amount of planning and investment that went into the pregnancy. That kind of investment can't be measured in days or weeks, it is measured in the hearts of mothers and fathers.
Your words are so eloquent...and so true. I think that is why it bothers me when women who've had miscarriages say that my loss is so much "worse" than theirs...everyone has their own story to tell, how can we say that?

I really like the way you put it Gossamer, our own loss really is the worst.

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses...I feel like I'm gaining a broader perspective on this.

My deepest condolences to all of the mamas here who have experienced the loss of a baby(ies).


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## gonnabeamom (Sep 15, 2003)

As a general rule, and intellectually, I think their is no comparing losses.

I've had two m/c this year, and I guess part of it for me is that when I hear of a woman losing a baby late in pregnancy,(I have close friends who did years ago) I think of the pain that I felt losing my pregnancies, and I can only imagine it multiplied-I see my hope for my child and my daydreams, and my plans, and my baby stash, and I think what if I had three times that much, and somehow as if there is three times the pain.

I even sometimes think how much worse it seems for the women who have m/c later than I have, and really I think it's just a way of trying to shield yourself from the pain and loss you are feeling.

I've never felt anyone here has every done that to me, but rather it's something I do to myself.


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## Shellie (Dec 29, 2003)

I also tend to think that a loss would be harder the farther along it was--at least for me personally. I had a m/c at 9-10 weeks and it's been very painful emotionally. It's been life-changing.

It still doesn't even begin to compare to how I imagine I would feel losing a baby later in pregnancy or sometime during childhood.

I think one of the difficulties in dealing with grief related to m/c (especially very early m/c) is that most other people do not consider it a "real" loss *plus* it can be very difficult to reconcile _exactly what was lost_. (At least in my experience.)


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I really don't understand the need that some feel (not specifically in this thread) to compare losses.

I don't spend time trying to qualify my loss based on someone elses expereince. What is the point?


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## gossamer (Feb 28, 2002)

Quote:

I even sometimes think how much worse it seems for the women who have m/c later than I have, and really I think it's just a way of trying to shield yourself from the pain and loss you are feeling.
I agree. I have often said that everybody is somebody else's worst case scenario. That is one reason going to a neonatal loss support group really helped me. I could hear other's stories and say to my self, at least it wasn't that bad for me. Where I am sure somebody was looking at me and Mary Rose saying "At least THAT didn't happen to me." Grief hurts and I think it would be unbearable to think that the very worst thing in the world that could ever happen, just happened to you, so some where in this great big world, somebody has to have had a worse experience. I don't know if I am explaining myself well, but I hope y'all can get the gist of it all.
Gossamer


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## iris0110 (Aug 26, 2003)

Gossamer, I think you are right. We all need to think that something worse could have happened. It is hard to see yourself as the worst case scenario, but then I see pregnant women looking at me and I can almost hear them thinking "What if that happened to me?" Kwim? And I think society tries to down play the importance of neonatal losses. Even by labeling them as stillbirths and miscarriages, we create not only a rift between losses pre and post partum, but also a rift between women who lose their babies before 20 weeks as aposed to after. I will say that I don't think I would have felt my loss any less at 15 weeks, but society would have seen my loss differently. And I think our culture pushes us to forget our losses, especially early miscariages. That is probably the hardest thing to get past for all of us greiving mamas.


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## Ms. Mom (Nov 18, 2001)

I commend you all on approaching such a brave topic with such respect. I'm always pleasantly amazed with the women here







And thank you to those with the courage to discuss such a difficult issue.

In the past 10 years I've met women with all kinds of losses. What I've learned is that every loss is individual to each person. Just as every child is individual.

One woman I know stands in my mind. She had 22 miscarriages. Never did carry a baby past 6 weeks - my heart ached for this woman. She never felt a kick and eventually was told she could not try any more.

I know many women who have tried to conceive for many years and never experienced a pregnancy. That's another loss in itself, is it greater or less than ours?

A close friend of mine lost her 5 year old. He died in his sleep for no reason. She told me once "now I know how hard it was on you". I thought that was odd? I got to see and hold Amanda, but I had not had 5 years of nurturing her and knowing her like she did her son.

So, what loss is 'worse'? I would honestly say all of them. I believe that our feelings are the only thing in life we truly own. We all have the right to feel how we feel.

Now are losses different? Absolutely! Every loss comes with it's own difficulties. Every person has his or her own story. In short, every loss should be acknowledged and every person the right to grieve in a way that suits them.

I'm sometimes asked how I can moderate this forum so many years after my losses. People want to know if I find it depressing. Honestly, I don't, I'm sad that each one of you has suffered the loss of a child. It breaks my heart. But, I know that losses happen and I'm thankful that forums like this exist. I know that each one of you will one day be in a more peaceful place in your life - I know that deep inside me. But right now, you have deep feelings that need to be explored.


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## hmpc2 (Jul 1, 2003)

I really like what Gossomer and others have said. Each loss is devesating b/c it happened to ourselves.

Adriunna~ why I believe others have to qualify their loss and compare is because it a part of the grieving process. I know for myself I sometimes get in a comparing stage...b/c I want to drown in my misery...no one knows the pain I am in b/c...other times, other stories sound so much more devestating. Ultimately I know we are each grieving and have lost a child...you really cannot compare grief. Grief just hurts no matter what, how, or why, you had a loss.


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## saturnine25 (Mar 26, 2002)

This is a topic I have thought about alot.............and I believe (as has already been stated) that one's own loss is the worst. While you can never actually assign value to a loss, IMO, I feel that personally I would have a harder time coping with a stillbirth than with a m/c, although the m/c was very difficult emotionally.


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## SweetTeach (Oct 5, 2003)

bump


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## queencarr (Nov 19, 2001)

Intellectually, I don't think one is worse than the other--a loss is a loss and they are all heartwrenching. My gut reaction is that a stillbirth is worse, but I don't have anything to justify that by, and when I think it through, I actually disagree with myself. This is sort of the same reaction I have as when a child dies vs. someone who has lived a long life--there is still suffering and loss, but my gut says a child's death is so much worse, even though it is really not. I think that for each individual person, the type of loss may or may not be worse, depending on the individual circumstances, for example, being far enough along that you let your guard down creates it's own set of problems. But that a stillborn child is (slightly) more validated in society than a miscarried one has it's own issues for a mother who has miscarried. If I think too hard, it makes me go in circles, although I will say that my perspective has changed since my own loss. Previously, I did feel that stillbirths were "worse." Now, I think that individual aspects of each are worse than the comparative aspects of the other, but a loss is a loss.

Am I correct in remembering that the comments originally came up in the context of dealing with issues more specific to stillbirth than miscarriage? I do think that without personal experience, there are many things that I did not/still do not understand or realize about miscarriage, in the same way that I assume that mothers who have miscarried don't realize about those of us with stillbirths. I remember having to explain to a mom who had never suffered any loss that you still go through labor with a stillbirth--she had never thought the process out all the way through, that the baby still had to come out. In the same way, until I came here, I did not realize that many women who miscarry go through labor--I assumed it was like a heavy period.

I also think that for some women, they are grieving multiple losses of different things that overlap in the experience. For example, with the loss of my daughter, in addition to losing her and all that entailed with the our dreams and wishes for her, I also experienced other losses. I know that unless there is a reasonable cure/treatment for pre-e, for example, that I will never give birth to another child. I had to deal with my own feelings of failure as a mother protecting her child [just because I intellectually know this is not the case didn't mean that it didn't haunt me]. I had to watch the loss of innocence in my son's eyes, and relive my grief about his premature birth and resulting disability. I had to deal with nearly losing my faith. I think these are what really combine to make one situation worse or better than another, not the loss per se, but the baggage that goes along with it.

Bah, I don't think I even managed to answer the question--this is still a learning process for me as well, and as we come up on anniversary dates, I am even less coherant that normal. It doesn't help that as we speak, a close friend is expecting her 1st grandchild to be delivered tonight and I am waiting for the update call.


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## wilkers8 (Mar 22, 2004)

I went back to read my thread in the archive along with StarFairy's response. Yes, the context of this started as I was deep in posting regarding my son being a stillborn. I was unaware (and really hadn't thought it through) regarding when the "week" marker is of determining the loss a miscarriage versus a stillbirth. Her response has very much stayed with me because I could completely see her point (she was rightfully upset as her loss was at 18 weeks and she had a full blown delivery etc.). I could completely see how her loss was no different than mine at 27 weeks as she faced the same issues I did.

At the time, it didn't come across right and I'm not surprised by that as I was still in a horrible place. I wasn't necessarily trying to compare losses. I fully acknowledge the horrible tragedy of miscarriage as well as inferitiliy. What I was trying to express was the issues that I was/am facing with a stillborn is different than those who miscarried. For example, today almost a year and a half after my first son's death and after a successfully subsequent pregnancy, I am desperately trying to get rid of my first son's pregnancy weight (I've lost my second pregnancy weight) 27 pounds I still have to lose. Does this make it worse...not necessarily, just different issues to face. However, we all face the one same issue that brings us all here...the death of our baby.

I do want to note something as I have read the posts here. I can't speak for all mothers of stillborn babies, however, I have to fight like hell to continue to have my first son acknowledged in society. My loss is not generally more accepted because it was a late loss. I still hear the same crap "better it happened before you knew him, etc". Society doesn't deal with pregnancy loss well regardless of the stage of loss.


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## starbaby69 (May 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *queencarr*
I had to deal with my own feelings of failure as a mother protecting her child [just because I intellectually know this is not the case didn't mean that it didn't haunt me]. I had to watch the loss of innocence in my son's eyes, and relive my grief about his premature birth and resulting disability. I had to deal with nearly losing my faith. I think these are what really combine to make one situation worse or better than another, not the loss per se, but the baggage that goes along with it.



This is so true, and so well put Queencar. A mother's personal baggage is so terribly difficult to deal with, and I believe that in a lot of ways it defines her loss--regardless of the child's age. My baggage is just as painful as losing my daughter. She died of a heart defect. Did I do something? Did I not do something? I know that intellectually there is nothing I could have done to save her, yet I still blame myself. My spiritual life has been turned upside down, and at this point has virtually disappeared. I'm angry that I was robbed of a happy and healthy birth experience. My relationship with my own mother has forever been damaged because of the way she dealt with my loss. My loss was at 41 weeks. Do I believe that a mother who had a loss at 5 weeks could experience the same hard things? Absolutely.

What is different to me are the specifics of loss. My dh and I only found out about our daughters death when we went to the hospital with packed bags for our scheduled induction. Later that night I delivered my still, 8 pound daughter. Yet despite this, I can't tell anybody what it is like to lose a child earlier--to hold a baby that weighs maybe only ounces, is perfectly formed, but is sadly too small to survive. I can't tell anybody what it is like to have a loss after multiple losses, or after ttc for years. I also can't tell anybody what it is like to lose a child that is, for example, a year old. Different specifics.


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## bobacat (May 20, 2004)

This is interesting. I was just writing about this in my journal today. I had an unusual situation in that I thought I was 29 weeks pregnant but the baby died around 24-25 weeks. I never felt movement to begin with, so I didn't know he died. I then chose to have a D&E instead of giving birth...something I have really struggled with since making that decision. So for me this question is really confusing. I get uncomfortable even saying that my child was "stillborn" because although technically he was considered that, I did not actually give birth. Yet, I did not have a miscarriage because 24-25 weeks is definitely beyond that point. My doctor calls it a "fetal demise" but that sounds so clinical. I hate those words. I never got that intimate connection with my baby because I never did feel him move...I think it made it hard to connect with him. He was just an idea in my mind. So did I "miscarry" or was my baby "stillborn?" I don't know.

I also think that the loss is all about perception. If you have had 3 children already and then have a miscarriage at 5 weeks, you MAY not be really upset. MAY NOT.....But if you've been struggling with infertility for years and years and you finally get pregnant and then lose that baby at 5 weeks you will probably have a much harder time with the loss. Of course...I'm generalizing. I haven't been in either situation!

I do personally think that it was harder to lose my baby at such a late stage in pregnancy than it would have been earlier. My friend miscarried at 6 weeks and went on to get pregnant again the cycle after she miscarried. My body took several months (and I was lucky) to even out. I wanted nothing more than to be pregnant again, but my body thought I'd had a living baby and it took time for that to happen. My breasts leaked. I was "lucky" in that I lost all the weight I gained very quickly because of grief (but then gained some back because of grief too). It was a very public loss and everyone I knew knew that I had lost the baby. That was very very hard. I hated feeling pitied. I felt like my body had betrayed me...it had gone on for 4 weeks acting like the baby was still alive...and I never knew. I had and still do have a lot of trauma from knowing that and from the time when we found out to whe I had my D&E (three days) and the procedure itself. But I'm sure that people with earlier losses can have that kind of trauma too. And now in my subsequent pregnancy, even at 21 weeks I find it really hard to feel confident...whereas it seems like many women with earlier losses can seem to relax after they pass the 12 week mark.

But I certainly feel like people with later losses than mine have it "worse." And I have heard some stories that were even stranger than mine, and I feel bad for those women who had such unusual situations where they really can't find anyone to relate to.

Well, I don't know if I said anything cognizent there...but I appreciate this thread.
Roxanne


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## LizD (Feb 22, 2002)

I think everyone handles loss differently and it would be all but impossible to quantify and compare these things. I do know what folks are saying, though: I had a stillbirth at 23 weeks; I was devastated, completely kapowow, falling-down-in-public kind of crazy. My sister-in-law, who might not even have been pregnant (miscarried at around the time her pd would have been expected; I figured her faint positive was an evap line) was not really that upset, except that she had been trying for a while, and this was held as a comparison: SIL is much more realistic and mature, less "hysterical" and "overdramatic" than I am, because she handled that loss more easily than I did mine. My husband's family thought I was being overdramatic for naming him, not realizing it is required in my state for a baby past 20 weeks; they need a death certificate. I would hate to say or think that about someone just because I couldn't understand why they were so upset.

I don't really think of that baby as "stillborn" either, perhaps because to me the words "stillborn baby" conjure an image of full-term for me. I think of him as the baby that died. I don't mean to dispute anyone's stillbirth or miscarriage; I just mean that these words have different connotations for different people, and that might be why there are often misunderstandings around these situations.


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## taradt (Jun 10, 2003)

Lots of great thoughts here...

DH and I were discussing this sort of thing a few weeks back and it really got me thinking. I think one of the real problems is society's thought and views on miscarriage vs. stillbirth. Most people think of stillbirth as being a fullterm baby and miscarriage as being a bit of extra bleeding and the loss of a very early baby, and i do admit this is what i used to think as well before I got pregnant. When I first got pregnant with my daughter I realized how very quickly the thought of having a baby turns into all the thoughts and dreams about your life with this new person and knew then that to lose a baby must be hard. In many ways my first loss was the hardest because that is when I became "other people" because a loss couldn't happen to me it happens to other people, people that didn't do things right, boy how wrong was I. The problem is it took a loss for me to see that, even though I was always compasionate before my loss. I think society as a whole tends to think we who had a loss must have done something to cause it, that must be how people comfort themselves that it can't happen to them.

We need to get rid of the terms miscarriage vs. stillbirth, a 19w7 day loss is no different then a 20w one. Each term encompasses 20 weeks of time, there is a lot that happens in those 20 week blocks. It is hard for people to comprehend that later miscarriages DO involve a birth. Emotionally there may be no difference but physically there is a very big difference between a 4 week and a 19.5 week miscarriage just as there is a very big difference between a 20 and a 40 week stillbirth.

In my experience my 26 week loss has been more acknowledged. I was expected to name my baby, I have had people call him by his name and I have a death certificate in his name as well as a few private pictures, he is on record as a person. My other 2 losses do not have that, they do have names but not the acknowledgment that goes with it. That said most people are uncomfortable when I mention any of my losses and most people don't call any of my angels by their names.

That was a long and drawn out way of saying I think the problem with the terms is that society doesn't understand them and we really need people to be open about their losses, with the hopes that one day people will be able to talk about their angels without everyone turning away.

tara


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## orangefoot (Oct 8, 2004)

I am just reading; I haven't suffered as you have but I wanted to add something.

At around the same time my dad died unexpectedly at 67, the daughter of a friend of my family lost a little one early in pregnancy. At my dad's funeral I told her that I was so sorry to hear of her loss and she replied that mine must be much worse.

I felt a wrench when she said that because although I truly felt thankful that I had all the memories of my dad, and that we had spent so many good times together I knew that she would be missing a future. I know that when I was pregnant I was thinking how things would be different when the baby came and 'factored' him or her into our daily lives. She told me she had thought that Chrismas would be different this year with a baby and then next summer's holiday and more.

Maybe society feels that a loss of hope is somehow less than the loss of reality. My heart goes out to all of you and I will think of her at Christmas when both our days will be different to how we had hoped.


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## mimi_n_tre (Jun 15, 2005)

I really don't know how to differentiate how hard it is to distinguish between stillborn and miscarriage. I have had both within the last 10 months and I do feel that Jase was much more hard of a loss than my first. After my miscarriage, I decided to go to the doctors as soon as possible, to ensure that I wasn't going to lose another. (A girl at work had been pregnant about 4 times in the previous year before they put her on progesterone.) I got to see his heartbeat, and feel him move. I do feel that if I didn't get pregnant with Jase so quickly, the month after my miscarriage, that I would have grieved more, since me and dh have been together for three years and this was my first time pregnant. But I also stop to think that if perhaps I would have waited a few months and grieved more for my first child this year, that perhaps Jase would have lived, and not have left me so suddenly.

Another thing is that I told the people at work that I had taken pictures of Jase. They now think I am demented. I really dont care, but had to give them the thought that I wouldn't go around and take pictures of a family member who had died since I had months or years with this person and have those memories to get me through the grief. But with Jase, I didn't get any of those type of memories, instead I have memories of him kicking me, and making me go pee all of the time. Without his pictures, I would have no visual memories of him. But with his pictures, I get to see him, I get to compare his foot size to that of his older brother, I get to compare what they both looked like when born, something that would fade out of my memory rather quickly without pictures. Its still funnier though, that while my son Trevor who was born at 35 weeks and only weighed 3 lbs 10 oz, when compared to Jase who was 26 1/2 weeks and only weighed 1 lb 1 oz, I think that Jase was quite larger that Trevor, Trevor was very long and skinny, where Jase was small and filled out.


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## warriorprincess (Nov 19, 2001)

I can't speak to anyone elses experiences, but I've had two miscarriages (7 and 9 weeks) and a stillbirth (33 weeks) and the SB was an order of magnitude harder to deal with.


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## HaveWool~Will Felt (Apr 26, 2004)

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## Blue Dragonfly (Jun 19, 2005)

You mamas are amazing. That you can go forward and speak to your losses is amazing to me. I read today about a mama who lost her second child, and it makes me so sad for her - I can't even imagine going on.

I don't have anything to add to the coversation, but didn't feel right lurking without posting and acknowledging you brave, brave women.

Hugs:


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## kaspar (Nov 9, 2005)

i just had a miscarriage and while it is hard to deal with - i don't think i've had a day without crying in the month since it happened - i think a stillborn would be much worse. when i found out at 11 weeks that there was no heartbeat, i chose to have a d&c. i didn't have any physical symptoms other than wooziness from the anaesthetic. i found out there was no heartbeat at a routine ultrasound, we had planned on telling everyone about the pregnancy after getting the all-clear (which of course didn't happen). i am relieved that if it had to end, it did before we told anyone other than my mum and boss; i don't think i could bear the discomfort and pity of others if other people had known. or the possibility that my aunt's cousin's friend might bump into us on the street a year later and ask "where's the baby" not knowing any better. for me it has helped to remind myself that it wasn't a baby, it wasn't even a fetus, it was an embryo, there is nothing i could have done, it just wasn't meant to be. we hadn't got any baby stuff yet, so i don't have a crib or booties or whatnot lying around to remind me of what happened.

if we do ever manage to conceive again, it will be very hard for me to tell other people i think. maybe i will start dropping hints that we are thinking of starting a family when theoretical future baby turns 2.


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