# Very specific question for any of you who has/had an alcoholic father



## Barefoot~Baker (Dec 25, 2008)

As some of you know from my other posts, my dh is an alcoholic. I'm barely holding on in this marriage, and sometimes I think I'm only still here because of the kids. I was a child of divorce and it pains me to this day. I don't want them to go through it. However, I want to do what's best for them, and if it's leaving, then I will.

Question - If you have/had an alcoholic father who was NOT physically or verbally/emotionally abusive, and your parents stayed together, are you happy about that? Would you have preferred it if your mother had divorced him, if so why? What was it like for you?

I know this is a really difficult subject. I'm looking for help and advice, and of course support is always appreciated.

Thanks.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

My dad's an alcoholic, and wasn't abusive in any way. My parents stayed together until I was 21, then split up, got back together when I was almost 23 (probably because my brother and I both got married that year, and the intense family emotions were swirling around), then separated for good when I was 25. I'm 41.

They told me they were splitting up when I was 21, and I was upset for about an hour. Then, I was just _so_ relieved. I was really worried when they got back together, and quite happy it didn't last.

My parents had an _amazing_ marriage when I was little, but from the time I was about 8 or 9, the house was just...tense. It was no fun being there. Neither of my parents were happy and that permeated the whole house all the time. I spent my teens wanting to be somewhere else - when I was at school (being bullied and bored), I wanted to be at home...and when I got home, I missed being at school. I spent a _lot_ of time in my room, listening to music. I wished they'd just split up and stop being miserable.

When my mom was 35, I thought she looked 50. When she was 50, and apart from my dad, I thought she looked 35. It was so good to see her living her life, instead of doing...whatever it was she'd been doing for the last 10-15 years.

I so, so wish she'd broken it off sooner. He's not a bad guy, but he wasn't much of a dad (_wonderful_ in my early years, though) - they coined the term "emotionally unavailable" for him, I think - and it was awful seeing her so miserable all the time. I don't think she stayed "for" us, though. I think she kept hoping it would get better.


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## IntrovertExtrovert (Mar 2, 2008)

Hm...for a certain definition of alcoholic, and a certain definition of abusive, I fit the bill.

My father was a binge drinker when I was growing up. He rarely drank in front of me and was rarely drunk at home during the day, but he was a regular at a local bar and a bar near his work, and often came home very late and drunk.

He did not abuse me, but it was a very unpleasant household all the same. He and my mother would fight, scream, and throw dishes late into the night, and sometimes they each would make a point of standing at the foot of the stairs (so as close as they could get to my room without coming upstairs) and yelling horrible things about each other so that they could be sure I heard. I think I was about 16 the only time I got the nerve to yell at them to shut the F* up because I had a test the next day at school.

To be honest, I blame my mother for the unpleasant upbringing as much or more than my father. As a child it seemed like he would have been content being gone and drunk then coming home and sleeping. I felt like she was the one who did most of the yelling. She also belittled him every time she mentioned him "your idiot father, of course your father forgot to do this," etc. She made a point of showing me her packed luggage in the trunk of her car "just in case" during one of my college visits home. As a child she would often say things like "if I don't kill your father by then." When I was 16 she moved out of their bedroom and into the bedroom next to mine (my older sister had moved out 4 years earlier when she turned 18). I felt like a captive in my room because the slightest noise or light woke her, and she refused to close her bedroom door.

That said, I don't think life would have been any better for me if they had divorced. My mom surely would have been given custody of me, and she's such a needy, insecure, immature person that I think it just would have been worse for me. This sounds horrid, but at least my dad was there to take her ire/attention off of me.


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## MadiMamacita (Jan 29, 2006)

my dad was/is an alcoholic (though he has it in check currently). he didnt drink during the day and maybe not every night, but he didnt know when to stop. he was verbally/emotionally abusive when sober, but too weirdly nice when drunk, and sometimes argumentative. he never laid a hand on me or my brother, and as far as i know never hit my mom. he and my mom split for about a year when i was 14ish. i was thrilled, to be honest. the house was always so tense and you never knew what would set him off.
my parents got back together after my dad did a good bit of soul searching and therapy. and has been a completely different person in the last 14 or so years.

he has to want to change, or nothing will. losing his family is what motivated my dad.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

My dad is an alcoholic. He was abusive, though my mom was actually the more abusive of the two. They were investigated by CPS when I was little, and it must have made an impression, because things greatly improved after that. So my situation is not like you're asking about. My mom was miserable and not in a good place emotionally. She still is. I think she would have been happier without him, and in turn would have had an easier time with us. Having an alcoholic dad was not as difficult as having a mom who was so terribly stressed and unhappy. The alcoholism made my dad more absent than anything else, after the CPS involvement.

The other thing is that even without much if any abuse, alcoholics are volatile emotionally, and we were always worried that he might snap. The constant fear of it was almost as bad as the very few instances after CPS involvement when he did snap.

I don't think you would be hurting your kids to get divorced if the marriage is making you unhappy.







It's OK to think about yourself. You can PM me if you want more info.


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## number572 (Aug 25, 2004)

Hi, my mom stayed with my dad until my sis & i were ages 7 & 9. Then she, my sis & I moved out. Our mom met a guy within a few months and married him less than a year later & although he was funny & about 10 years her junior so he had more energy than my dad, he was also pretty heavy alcoholic.

So, it'd be great to be able to say yes, things were lighter w/o my dad's alcoholic moods in the house & the fighting btwn our parents while growing up - but they didn't improve and actually got worse b'c he was not my real dad & tried to bully us alot, b'c the new guy brought the same issues right back into the house. My mom divorced him after my sis & I were out of highschool.

She is married again now & her new dh drinks a few glasses of wine almost daily & was counting days when he was told not to drink during 14 days of antibiotics - BUT, his attitude is so very very different. He drinks & likes to talk intellectually, never brings any sort of ego or upset when he drinks & is always in a light mood the next day. Its like he's a drinker but not an alcoholic... or something, but its just different from her other marriages.


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## russsk (Aug 17, 2007)

For me it was my stepfather, but he married my mom when I was 2, so he was always in the picture. He and my mother divorced when I was a teen and it was such a relief. My mother went back to being the fun, happy person she used to be, and we felt like this huge weight was lifted. Although he didn't beat us and was generally considered a "happy" drunk, we were always on pins and needles around him and could never just relax. He was awful to be around. My brother still sees him regularly, but I've had no contact with him for years, and don't plan on ever seeing him again.


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## MadiMamacita (Jan 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamazee* 
The other thing is that even without much if any abuse, alcoholics are volatile emotionally, and we were always worried that he might snap.


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## AutumnAir (Jun 10, 2008)

My dad is an alcoholic. My parents stayed togther 'for the kids' until I was 18 and my brother was 15, then separated. (Not very easy to get a divorce in Ireland...)

I wish they'd split up much sooner. My dad wasn't abusive, but he was emotionally unstable when drinking, and you would just never know what kind of mood he would be in. He bullied my mom, who was miserable for most of the marriage and blamed herself for dad's problems - a pattern I've unfortunately learned. I, too, find it all too easy to blame myself if someone else, e.g. DH or DD is unhappy. I haven't properly learned how to let others be responsible for their own emotions, because I spent so long watching mam walking on eggshells around dad, trying to efface herself so she didn't set him off.

My mom is a lot happier since they separated, and actually confessed to me a while back that she also wished she'd split up with dad long before she actually did.

Alcoholism is not easy to live with, and its effects are insidious. It's not the same as someone who's blatantly abusive and it's hard to know exactly where to draw the line, because so many people drink without being alcoholic. Living with an alcoholic encourages unhealthy relationship patterns overall - co-dependency would be a big one. It also puts the people living with it under a lot of stress; partly because of the unpredictable nature of the alcoholism/ behaviour, and the stress of walking on eggshells, feeling responsible for another person's outbursts. I also remember crying myself to sleep on numerous occasions, fearing that my dad would kill himself in the car, as I knew he drove drunk a lot.

It's a good reason to leave - if you're looking for justification to leave. If your husband is not willing to admit to his problem and start making changes himself then you're most likely at nothing staying, as you can't change him or his behaviour.


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## Kelly1101 (Oct 9, 2008)

My dad is an alcoholic. He is not abusive, although my parents DID fight, sometimes loudly. It just wasn't a case of him bullying her or anything like that, just a case of them arguing (my mother was never scared that he would hit her or anything like that, he's not a violent person, and he never abused her self-esteem or anything).

They divorced when I was 11. It was very hard. But because of the conflict between them, and the obvious lack of love (not just the fighting, which was occasional, but just that you could FEEL the tension between them, and they were very unhappy together), I was glad that they did divorce.

Of course, I would have preferred that they love each other and not want to divorce and never argue, and stay together. But since they obviously couldn't be happy together, it was better that they divorced. We didn't have to live with that constant pressure and tension anymore. I felt that way pretty much instantly. My older sister (13 at the time) had a harder time with it, but now has a great relationship with both of our parents.

I hope everything works out well for your family.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kelly1101* 
My dad is an alcoholic. He is not abusive, although my parents DID fight, sometimes loudly. It just wasn't a case of him bullying her or anything like that, just a case of them arguing (my mother was never scared that he would hit her or anything like that, he's not a violent person, and he never abused her self-esteem or anything).

That was more or less my parents, except they didn't even fight, as such. Mom would just blow up sometimes, out of sheer frustration, while dad sat there like a brick wall. He rarely even responded to her, and when he did, it was usually a fairly passive-aggressive one-liner...which tended to just get her more riled. It was just sooooo unpleasant in that house. We had good days, but by the time I was about 15 or 16, I didn't even like the good days that much, because they felt fake. (They weren't fake, as I understand _so_ much better after having been through my own marriage to an addict, but they weren't exactly real, either. The...stuff was always simmering underneath.)


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

This is an interesting question for me... because we now live with my dad, who by most standards is an alcoholic. Heck, you could probably classify DH as an alcoholic (when they're both drinking beer (dad mostly drinks vodka, cause' its cheaper







), they can/do routinely go through a 12 pack a night... if its just DH drinking beer then a 12 pack lasts him 2-4days....).

My parents split when I was 15 and it was a relief... at first. Because at first we (me & older brother) lived with dad in our house. A month later, mom moved back in and dad moved out. And then life was hell for the next 2 yrs till I got the guts to move out and in with dad - my moms a bit of a mental case, which is apparently why they split up to begin with, NOT my dads drinking. Dad has never been in the least bit abusive... my mom has been/is emotionally abusive... and is EXTREMELY manipulative. Honestly, if I could go back in time to when I was 15, I would simply beg and plead that my dad 'fight' my mom and insist on the house to start with, rather than letting her live here w/ us for 3 yrs before he/we got the house back. Because the two years I lived w/ my mother were the worst of my life, by far.


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## carfreemama (Jun 13, 2007)

Another child of an alcoholic here. My dad, most of my life. I'm not sure how much the drinking made living with him miserable, or how much was what made him drink that made him miserable...

Dad was a very insecure, angry, bitter and self-pitying person. It took me a good while to figure out that I just didn't LIKE him...but I was still a kid when I did make that realization and dad knew it. And he didn't really like me either. Yuck. He was sexist and I budded into feminism very early. We just did NOT get along. I'm not sure how different that would have been if he hadn't been a drunk. He probably still would have been, well, HIM.

However, lots of what people have said here rings so true. The unpredictability. The flash-point anger. The zero frustration tolerance.

Unfortunately, I was also my dad's confidante about his drinking. I was the one he told about how much he drank and where he "hid" it. Something to keep in mind; my mom apparently had no idea about this. Secrets are common with alcoholics. How will you know what he's telling your kids, what they are actually witnessing/aware of?

At least it sounds like you're not in denial about his drinking. My mom's desire to not know the extent of it, to try to preserve appearances, was a big part of the problem in our house.

The anxiety, almost the desire to have dad just blow up and have it over with...provoking him sometimes because I just couldn't stand the tension and it was BETTER if he blew up...

Maybe if I'd had some space from him, maybe if I hadn't watched him destroy himself, not be able to hold down a job for any length of time...maybe I could have salvaged some kind of relationship with him as an adult. As it was, I lost all respect for him. He died of MS, complicated by his alcoholism, when I was 24. I told him I loved him on the phone the day he died.


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## confustication (Mar 18, 2006)

My dad drank- a lot- but never enough to be noticeably drunk. He still drinks, though much less since he's actually dealt with the depression he spent a lifetime trying to bury. The worst times were when I was about 14/15 my brother had already left for college, and things were tough for my folks financially. I remember wishing they would split so they could both be happier, and wishing my mother would stop upsetting my Dad. I was old enough to see some of it, but I didn't really understand all of it. She wasn't fighting with him to be cruel, and he wasn't drinking just to make her mad.

Ultimately, she got through to him, he's modified his drinking (a beer or so every so often... ) and they are very happily still married. Of course, that is over 40 years after they were first married...

I'm glad they made it through all of the difficulty- and stayed together- but it took me over a decade of being an adult to get past the damage done while I witnessed the worst couple years along the way. I wish my dad had sought treatment for his depression when I was little, and I wish that my mom had put her foot down about the alcoholism- then I could have known him then as the amazing guy he is now that the fog has lifted.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

My father is an alcoholic and my parents divorced when I was 3. I don't know him. He thought it was more important to be a drunk than to take care of the 6 children he fathered with three different wives (and these are just the legal ones we know about.)

Soooo.. I guess I don't really have much to ad.


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## Porcelain Interior (Feb 8, 2008)

Honestly (I come from a long line of drunks) I don't think you can be a parent and be an alcoholic and not be abusive.

Abuse can take so many forms. Being unavailable emotionally is abusive. It can cause just as many problems as being verbally/physically abusive.

Neglect emotionally or physically

Seeing other people "pretend" everything is fine and not acknowledge the elephant in the room (his drinking) is also extremely dysfunctional and damaging.

Normalizing or marginalizing alcoholism can also damage kids.

There's a reason that the group Adult Children Of Alcoholics exist. And it isn't because all of these people were beaten or called names. Silent forms of abuse are just as hard to erase and overcome.

My own father was verbally/physically abusive as well as loving. Seeing him intoxicated is by far the most horrific image I have from my childhood. The disappointments when he'd flip out on holidays, or be "sick" or just plain get too tired to participate in daily family life were so upsetting and disappointing.

I guess if I were you I'd take a cold hard outsider's look at what your husband's interactions are with his kids, and truly know that they see and feel and will eventually realize what's going on with him.

I am glad my mom left. It sent the message that it wasn't ok anymore and that we deserved better than to watch her rot away over my dad who didn't give a rat's patoot until it was too late.


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## HollyBearsMom (May 13, 2002)

My dad was hard working functioning alcoholic which is why it took me to my late teens to even think something was different and until my 20's to recognize it.

Growing up my dad was the first one up. He made my breakfast and got me ready for school. He made sure my teeth were brushed, my coat was on and my lunch was packed.

At night he made dinner and put me to bed until I started staying up past 8 or 9. Then he always went to be "early" because he had to be up "early".

I never questioned why I couldnt have a sip of his "juice" or why during the summers he often came home for a few hours during the day.

Bottom line- he was a ranging alcoholic who turned abusive to my mom in his 70's. I didn't bring my son to see him often and when he died it was relief.

But as sad as it my sound I had a very happy childhood...


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## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mrs. Turner* 
Question - If you have/had an alcoholic father who was NOT physically or verbally/emotionally abusive, and your parents stayed together, are you happy about that? Would you have preferred it if your mother had divorced him, if so why? What was it like for you?

My father was actually more pleasant when drunk than not, and my mother was a horror... if they had divorced, I think I would have been worse off because I would have gone with my mother.


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## primjillie (May 4, 2004)

My father was alcoholic, but didn't get abusive until I was a young adult. He was verbally abusive to all of us and physically abusive to my mother. Luckily, he wasn't very strong so he never hurt her. But the emotional damage was intense to all of us. My mother wouldn't divorce him since she was afraid he would throw away his half of their assets and that she wouldn't inherit if he died. He passed away 17 years ago and I have to say that while I miss the father he was when I was young, he was a miserable father and grandfather as he got older. Not surprisingly, I married an alcoholic that was verbally, emotionally and physically abusive. We are divorcing now for the second time and I feel like a weight has been lifted off my shoulders. Even though he finally stopped drinking, the damage was done. Now that we are split, he is drinking again. I would never ever get involved with someone with a drinking problem again. I have heard all the excuses, the lies, and the promises and 99 percent of the time, they mean absolutely nothing. I wish you the best of luck, either road isn't easy. You've got to think of your happiness and your children's well being.


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## Areia (Mar 5, 2009)

I'm so sorry you and your children are going through this. Many hugs to all of you.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kelly1101* 
My dad is an alcoholic. He is not abusive, although my parents DID fight, sometimes loudly. It just wasn't a case of him bullying her or anything like that, just a case of them arguing (my mother was never scared that he would hit her or anything like that, he's not a violent person, and he never abused her self-esteem or anything).
.


Quoted by HollyBearsMom: My dad was hard working functioning alcoholic which is why it took me to my late teens to even think something was different and until my 20's to recognize

These 2 statements describe my Dad to a T. In fact, if you'd asked me when I was a kid if my dad was an alcoholic, I would have said "No, he drinks alot but never misses work."

He worked 8am to 4pm, went right to his favorite bar and didn't come home until midnight or later. He did lots of unsafe things, like driving drunk. I spent most nights up late worried about him and could tell by how he parked the car in the driveway (right near my bedroom window) how drunk he was. He and my mom argued CONSTANTLY and honestly it was horrible, I never had friends over unless their dads drank too (and just randomly passed out on the couch) and like others have said, it was super tense. I spent most of my childhood wishing they'd get divorced and would even tell my mom she could use the money in my savings account if she had to.

He never hit or belittled any of us and was a "happy drunk" but even that had lots of wierdness to it. Like, he'd come home at night and be hungry and want to eat, but knew better than to wake up my mom, so he'd come get me and have me make bacon and eggs. Sometimes he brought a couple of friends with him and I'd be up at midnight feeding them all. I didn't tell my mom for the longest time because I didn't want to cause more trouble between them, but one night my dad passed out after eating and his 2 friends wouldn't leave. They were not being violent or threatening at all, these are guys I knew my whole life - they just wanted to watch TV and were really chatty - asking about school, etc, but I couldn't go to bed and leave them alone so I eventually woke my mom up. The next day she had a huge blow out with my dad (we heard the whole fight) asking him what he would have done if he woken up and found that those guys had hurt me.

That, and having a friend arrested and jailed for drunk driving, was a wake up call for him. He didn't stop overnight, but he cut back a lot and eventually things got a lot better. For the past 15 years or so, he sometimes has wine with dinner, but otherwise doesn't drink. In fact during allergy season, he doesn't drink at all due to his meds.

My parents never divorced and have gone on to have a really good relationship with lots of happy times. I'm happy about this now, but when I was a kid, I often wished he'd just go away.

My siblings were a lot younger at this time and they don't really remember the super bad times, they remember "funny dad" who'd be too drunk to remove his shoes so he'd give them each $10 to remove a shoe. Wasn't that cool!









My dad and I have had our rough spots, but we are in a good place now. I've always loved, loved and been super close to my mom. As I grew older, we talked a lot about those times and I know that her decisions were based on the situation at the time and what she thought was best for us.


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## angelcollector1 (May 26, 2007)

My dad was an alcoholic. He died 12 years ago. He and my mom stayed married until he died.. but they were miserable. I heard about his being physically abusive towards her after he died. I never witnessed it. He was a mean drunk in most cases and he may not have been physically abusive to me, although he was to my sister and brother---but he was emotionally abusive. He'd say things that touched the soul and he made life miserable. He stopped working when I was about 12 and went on total disability after a car accident- he was drunk at the time. The memories I have from childhood scarred me for life. After my kids were born he was told that if he was drinking he wouldn't be able to attend celebrations, holidays, etc. My children did not need to have their events ruined by what it's like having a drunk in attendance. He would get out of bed at 5am and start drinking even before the coffee was ready.. he didn't stop until he went to bed at night. If he was drinking beer, it was at least 24 cans a day, if it was something else- it would be vodka- at 1/2 gallon a day!
I wished my parents had divorced when I was young... but that didn't happen. My sister is and has been a drug addict/alcoholic since she was 12- including dealing from the time she was 14. My brother passed away from heart disease at 21. I haven't spoken to my sister in more than 7 years and have no desire to... she wants to blame everyone and everything for the way she is. I don't drink or smoke and have never done illegal/recreational drugs and have no interest in it.
No child should have to live with an alcoholic parent under any circumstances- whether you think they're abusive or not- they don't deserve it.


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## denimtiger (Jan 22, 2009)

I am sorry you and your family are going through this. I am not the child of an alcoholic, but my dd is.

My ex was never verbally or physically abusive, at all, but the emotinal abuse/damage happened all the same.

True alcoholism is a terrible disease that ravages entire families, not just the alcoholic. It is progressive, as well, getting worse over time.

Read carefully the previous posters and notice how many of them talk about their mothers being worse than their alcoholic fathers. That's not a coincidence. Being the signficant other of an alcoholic does horrific mental damage. I had no idea the kind of reactions I could have to someone being drunk... that wasn't ME, but that level of constant stress and disappointment are so unbelievably overwhelming that I can't imagine how I lived that way, even for the short time that I did it.

Yes, divorce is awful... and I've not been in _exactly_ your shoes, because my ex pulled the final drunken straws that I could handle while I was still pregnant (getting a DUI which had him in jail when dd was born, and very nearly drinking himself to death), so my dd has never really known him, but I can't imagine anything worse for a child than living with parents who are in that kind of dynamic. My ex has an older daughter from his first marriage, I had full legal custody of her for awhile, through social services, after the DUI incident -- the difference in our house when he was gone was so palpable you could TASTE it, and he was never even in any way mean to any of us. He was either the sweetest, funniest, most caring guy in the world -- or he was passed out drunk on the floor.

I never wanted to be that horribly unhappy, frustrated, angry, ugly person around my daughter that I found myself becoming with him around. And that is who wives of alcoholics become. The lies, the denial, the wondering if you're crazy because someone you love is looking you in the face telling you he hasn't touched a drop of alcohol, even though you (are pretty sure you) can smell it, and his eyes are off (aren't they?), and his speech is slurred (he doesn't always talk like that, right?), and that bottle of vodka you just found in the couch cushions must have been there for months... he didn't even know it was there (is it possible?)... can't you just appreciate that he did all the laundry and let him take a nap? And seriously, if he's going to be accused of drinking anyway, maybe he should just go do it!

If it's even approaching bad, don't subject your kids and yourself to that. I know it's hard. 2 1/2 years later my ex STILL calls to tell me he's in love with me and wants to see us, and that he's sorry, and that he knows he "screwed up," and he'll do anything to make it right. He never actually follows through, and he's still drinking (although he swears he's not), and he just lost the only job he's had in 18 months -- he kept it for a month.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *denimtiger* 
Read carefully the previous posters and notice how many of them talk about their mothers being worse than their alcoholic fathers. That's not a coincidence. Being the signficant other of an alcoholic does horrific mental damage. I had no idea the kind of reactions I could have to someone being drunk... that wasn't ME, but that level of constant stress and disappointment are so unbelievably overwhelming that I can't imagine how I lived that way, even for the short time that I did it.

This. I hadn't mentioned it before, but *I* was a complete...UAV during the last year or two of my first marriage. I shudder to think of some of the words ds1 heard from me, and the behaviour he saw from me. My mom wasn't as bad, but she sure yelled (not at us) a lot more when she was still with my dad, and was just generally kind of nuts. She's said the same herself. It was very unpleasant.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
This. I hadn't mentioned it before, but *I* was a complete...UAV during the last year or two of my first marriage. I shudder to think of some of the words ds1 heard from me, and the behaviour he saw from me. My mom wasn't as bad, but she sure yelled (not at us) a lot more when she was still with my dad, and was just generally kind of nuts. She's said the same herself. It was very unpleasant.

Hrmmm DH's opinion is, his dad was a drunk/drug addict because he lived with his mom. His theory was if he was married to his mom he would be a drunk too.

His dad has been clean and sober since we have been married.. back in their chuck.. ect.. he never contacts us.. or our kids.. and he tried to commit suicide a few weeks before DS was born. He claimed DH never told him I was pregnant but I was standing right there when he did.

Personally I think there is a tendency for depression that runs along that side of the family and I believe his dad was self medicating.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
Hrmmm DH's opinion is, his dad was a drunk/drug addict because he lived with his mom. His theory was if he was married to his mom he would be a drunk too.

I think it can go two ways, really. I know women who claim all their problems are about the way their partner drinks, but they're still horrible after the breakup...and I also know women (like me!) who are much, much, much nicer after getting the drunk/addict out of their lives.

Quote:

Personally I think there is a tendency for depression that runs along that side of the family and I believe his dad was self medicating.
That's definitely where my own adolescent drinking and drug use came from, although I certainly didn't realize it at the time.


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## denimtiger (Jan 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
Hrmmm DH's opinion is, his dad was a drunk/drug addict because he lived with his mom. His theory was if he was married to his mom he would be a drunk too.

Personally I think there is a tendency for depression that runs along that side of the family and I believe his dad was self medicating.


Plenty of drunks shift the blame to their wives this way. You can't live with an alcoholic and be healthy. You can't imagine what it feels like, and you internalize the excuses and the blame, too. And other people (your kids sometimes -- like your dh does to his mom) feed it right back to you.

My ex is self-medicating serious depression and PTSD, acquired from serving his country in two battle zones -- it's still the alcoholism that has killed his life and devastated his children. There's no excuse for it, it just is.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *denimtiger* 
Plenty of drunks shift the blame to their wives this way. You can't live with an alcoholic and be healthy. You can't imagine what it feels like, and you internalize the excuses and the blame, too. And other people (your kids sometimes -- like your dh does to his mom) feed it right back to you.

I agree with you, _but_ not every woman (or man, for that matter) married to a drunk is a wonderful person aside from dealing with the drunk. Sometimes, the drunk's partner/spouse is a really toxic person in their own right. That doesn't mean they should have to live with a drunk, and it doesn't mean the drinking is okay or the partner's fault, or anything else. After something I saw go down a few years ago, I just have limited patience with the apparently widespread belief that the partners/spouses of drunks/addicts are all just wonderful people, who are just suffering the crazy-making behaviour that addicts/alcoholics manifest. Some addicts/alcoholics are partnered with people who are really just not very nice.

Quote:

My ex is self-medicating serious depression and PTSD, acquired from serving his country in two battle zones -- it's still the alcoholism that has killed his life and devastated his children. There's no excuse for it, it just is.
I'm sorry.


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## denimtiger (Jan 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
I agree with you, _but_ not every woman (or man, for that matter) married to a drunk is a wonderful person aside from dealing with the drunk. Sometimes, the drunk's partner/spouse is a really toxic person in their own right. That doesn't mean they should have to live with a drunk, and it doesn't mean the drinking is okay or the partner's fault, or anything else. After something I saw go down a few years ago, I just have limited patience with the apparently widespread belief that the partners/spouses of drunks/addicts are all just wonderful people, who are just suffering the crazy-making behaviour that addicts/alcoholics manifest. Some addicts/alcoholics are partnered with people who are really just not very nice.



You're right, and I didn't mean to imply that they are all wonderful people in their own right. Certainly, I would think, people with their own issues are at least a little more likely to find themselves in relationships with addicts. However, it's the blaming issue that I'm sensitive about. People don't become alcoholics because their spouses are crazy. People don't start (or continue) drinking their lives into oblivion because of choices their spouses make ... those are excuses an alcoholic makes to keep from making the choice to get better.

Drunks can be married to toxic people just as anyone can, it's just not ever an excuse for being a drunk.


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## aniT (Jun 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *denimtiger* 
Plenty of drunks shift the blame to their wives this way. You can't live with an alcoholic and be healthy. You can't imagine what it feels like, and you internalize the excuses and the blame, too. And other people (your kids sometimes -- like your dh does to his mom) feed it right back to you.

My ex is self-medicating serious depression and PTSD, acquired from serving his country in two battle zones -- it's still the alcoholism that has killed his life and devastated his children. There's no excuse for it, it just is.

Naw... his mom is crazy. And DH's dad never blames his ex wife.. DH does. I have been at family gatherings for that side and DH's aunts and uncles and even his grandma will talk smack about his mom but his dad never ever says a word. He tells DH he has to be nice to his mom, shes been through so much.. blah blah yada yada.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *denimtiger* 
Drunks can be married to toxic people just as anyone can, it's just not ever an excuse for being a drunk.

Agreed.


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## SarahElizabeth (Mar 26, 2009)

Another child of an alcoholic here. I wouldn't say my dad was abusive to us kids as such.. but when he was drunk, he seemed to lose the ability to realise what was "too far" - he would unintentionally hurt feelings. He was abusive to my mother. She was pretty much forced to be a hermit, she was bullied. She ended up trying to commit suicide. She didn't succeed (thank god) and a few years later, we all moved away, leaving dad alone. My mother remarried another guy pretty quickly, and he was a bigger jerk.

My parents are back together now (though they have not remarried) and their relationship has been going from strength to strength by living apart. My mother has 4 of her 6 children living with each other (four girls - 18, 6 and twin infants) and says that while she loves my father and wants to work things out for good, she doesn't think it's fair to make her kids witness it daily.

I wish they'd always lived apart, honestly. My dad was always there but absent, which left a disgusting atmosphere in the house. I didn't like it one bit.


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## Barefoot~Baker (Dec 25, 2008)

Your stories are giving me so much to think about, ty so much


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## waldorfknitmama (Sep 16, 2007)

Can I be the minority here and say I wish my parents were still together?? My father has a host of mental issues including depression and alcoholism, he finally went to AA and has been sober since I was 12. My parents still had marital troubles (mainly the lost communication and drifted apart) and when I was 18 they divorced (like others have said, they wanted to stay together for me) when they divorced my mom went a little crazy and married some new guy right away who took all her divorce money and left her penny-less, so she moved into her parents house (which was a blessing really becuase they could no longer care for themselves anymore since they were becoming so elderly) she was ssooooo unhappy--- I htink in retrospect if my stupid parents could have really worked it out and seriously considered me (I'm an only child) they would BOTH be much happy then they are now. I think people divorce-- becuase it easy and I think most people don't want to deal with the issues they are having --- esp. within themselves. Short of physical abuse (like staying with someone who is threating your life) I htink you owe it to your children to put them first and give them a family who has both a mom and dad present in their lives. It isn't always easy but I think we can be selfish thinking "I'll be happy" if I leave him. . . but will the kids be happy to only see their mom or dad on certian days?? Has anyone seen the Oprah episode about divorce. . . the one where they had the kids on there speak about their experiences coming from divorced families?? One that we should all watch.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *aniT* 
Hrmmm DH's opinion is, his dad was a drunk/drug addict because he lived with his mom. His theory was if he was married to his mom he would be a drunk too.

I used to think this too. I'd wonder if my dad made my mom a UAV term, or if my mom drove my dad to drink. Now I know that my mom was just angry and miserable all the time, and that she couldn't hold it together. It wasn't her fault. Of course, it wasn't our fault either, but we suffered for it.

Now I'm regretting saying that. I guess this thread is making me feel sympathetic to her.


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## dinan6 (Aug 30, 2008)

I also grew up in an alcoholic home, have been greatly affected by alcoholism.. It's true for me as others have said that I feel my Mom was more responsible for keeping us there, she really was not putting our best interest first by staying. I have been in al anon for many years, maybe you should check them out. It is a great way to get the support needed when living in these situations. I do believe that children should be protected and think that many adults don't put the kids first.. Alcoholism destroys childhoods, it's an awful way to grow up and the affects reach many many generations.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Porcelain Interior* 
Honestly (I come from a long line of drunks) I don't think you can be a parent and be an alcoholic and not be abusive.

Abuse can take so many forms. Being unavailable emotionally is abusive. It can cause just as many problems as being verbally/physically abusive.

Neglect emotionally or physically

Normalizing or marginalizing alcoholism can also damage kids.

There's a reason that the group Adult Children Of Alcoholics exist. And it isn't because all of these people were beaten or called names. Silent forms of abuse are just as hard to erase and overcome.
.

On one hand I agree with this. OTOH, my dh was drinking too much (has since stopped) and I know his relationship with ds was still fabulous. But in the end, alcoholics can't be trusted to make the correct decisions. And ds was too young to know what was going on.

Both my parent's were alcoholics, I can't say if I wish they stayed together or not. Mostly I just wish they were better parents.


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## Bluegoat (Nov 30, 2008)

Hmm, my father was an alcoholic who stopped drinking shortly after my mom ended the marriage. He was in no way abusive, though not as present as he ought to have been. I have some memory of their relationship before they split up, and it was difficult, and I found it very stressful.

As far as his stopping drinking, what he told me was that he found once he was alone that he could not continue to drink and actually take care of himself. So in that way way it turned out well, though it was really too late for the marriage at that point.

Now, my dad's twin was also an alcoholic. He never permanently gave up drinking, and his kids are a mess. But they also had other difficulties, their mother is also a very bad alcoholic and their lives were essentially chaos as kids.

My dad's father was also an alcoholic, and though his mom divorced late in life ( I remember it) the kids grew up in an alcoholic family. There was no physical abuse, but the dad was largely concerned with himself, and could be very critical of the kids, and the mom became wrapped up in the problems of the relationship. I am inclined to think that this example was very bad for all the children, all of whom have had real relationship difficulties, and all but one has had substance abuse issues, to the point one son died as a result.


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## Mal85 (Sep 3, 2008)

My dad would certainly be considered an alcoholic, but I never realized it until I was an adult. He drinks every night, several beers. He couldn't stop if he tried, which is how I know he is an alcoholic. He'll keep drinking until it kills him, just like his father did.

My dad was never abusive in any way, shape or form. He's a very loving, emotional man and a great dad in many ways. He's always been a hard worker, working crazy hours to make sure my mom could stay home and raise the kids. But he drinks every night.

It's definitely a dependence for him, but never really negatively affected my childhood with him. Most pictures and memories I have of my dad, he does have a beer in his hand, but he was there. And he is supportive. My siblings and I were really worried about his health a few years ago, and did a sort of "intervention" with him. It didn't work. He never really said anything about. He tried to quit that and smoking, but it didn't last long.

My parents are still together, just celebrated their 40th anniversary. They're very much in love and successfully raised 6 children together. I guess you could say I got lucky in terms of my dad's alcoholism. I don't know if it's the norm, probably not, but it's not impossible.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Two parents in the home isn't an adequate substitute for a happy mom. Your kids deserve to have a mom who is genuinely happy. That can be the gift of divorce.


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## EarthMommy80 (Feb 8, 2007)

My dad is an acholic and has been my entire life. I mean, severe alcholic. He wasn't all that abusive to my brothers and I, but he was and still is abusive towards my mom. I love my parents equally despite thier problems, but I think they would love themselves and all of us even more if they weren't together. My mom just won't/can't leave. It's frustrating because her problems with his issues was taken out on us. My mom was more the abuser because she has always been so angry with my dad. The few times she left for short periods of time everyone was supportive for her, but she saw no one was being supportive of my dad and contiues to go back. I avoid my dad when he is drinking... he is also a good papa, but setting terrible examples for his grandchildren (like he did his kids). I say leave if there is a problem and he isn't trying to fix it. I always wanted to "fix" my parents problems and that causes heartache to a small child with no control over the situation. I will always love my parents, but I have always know that I would be able to love them more fully if they were apart, regaurdless of the divorce stigma. Kids sense the tension and blame themselves. Staying together "for the children" is never a good excuse.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mrs. Turner* 
Question - If you have/had an alcoholic father who was NOT physically or verbally/emotionally abusive, and your parents stayed together, are you happy about that? Would you have preferred it if your mother had divorced him, if so why? What was it like for you?
.

My dad was an alcoholic. He was BAAAD. Not abusive, but drunk ALL. THE. TIME.

We had a large basement in Chicago. My mom bought us a ping pong table, and eventually we got one of those really cool racecar tracks and used the ping pong table to set it up. But, we could almost never use it because my dad would fill the ping pong table with empty beer cans every night. He would drink litterally 24 beers a night.

Every Saturday, it was our job (my brother and I) to go downstairs with two big giant lawn and leaf bags and crush, then clean up the old beer cans. I can still remember the smell. It's been 30 years, but I can't ever forget the smell.

My dad set TWO couches on fire by falling asleep late at night with a cigarette. This was before smoke alarms.

We were the family that couldn't have kids over. Because everybody in the neighborhood knew my dad was a drunk.

I loved my dad... I really did. But, he wasn't a strong dad. He wasn't someone to be proud of. He was kindof pathetic and you felt sorry for him.

I don't wish my parents had divorced..... But, I did wish and pray for a different dad. As a kid, I would pick out other men and wish they were my dad.

I resent my mom for tolerating what she did at our expense. I wish she had put us first.

My happiest memories are of going to Tennessee with my Mom and brother and having a week or two without my Father. ALL of my best childhood memories are the times he wasn't there.

My dad died of esophogeal cancer 14 years ago. It was hard, and I miss him very much. But, I wish he'd been a different person.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *naturalmamaof1* 
I think people divorce-- becuase it easy and I think most people don't want to deal with the issues they are having --- esp. within themselves. Short of physical abuse (like staying with someone who is threating your life) I htink you owe it to your children to put them first and give them a family who has both a mom and dad present in their lives.

Excuse me? Short of physical abuse? I hope you're kidding, but I have a bad feeling you aren't.

My ex never threatened me, hit me or did anything physical to me at all (with the sole exception of pushing me out of his way as he left the house once, and I honestly don't even think he realized he'd touched me - he was running out the door, and I was partly in his way). I strongly suspect I'd be dead by now if I'd stayed with him, because of the toll the stress was taking on my health. Marriages can be really, really, really bad, without being physically abusive, and I can't think of anything I could have done to my son that would have been worse than keeping him in that environment. My dad never threatened my mom - he wasn't abusive, except in an extremely passive emotional sense, and I never saw him hit anyone in my life - but mom staying with him wasn't good for us, either. When she finally left him, it wasn't because she thought she'd be "happy" without him - it was because she thought she'd have a chance to be _sane_.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mal85* 
My dad would certainly be considered an alcoholic, but I never realized it until I was an adult. He drinks every night, several beers. He couldn't stop if he tried, which is how I know he is an alcoholic. He'll keep drinking until it kills him, just like his father did.

My dad was never abusive in any way, shape or form. He's a very loving, emotional man and a great dad in many ways. He's always been a hard worker, working crazy hours to make sure my mom could stay home and raise the kids. But he drinks every night.

It's definitely a dependence for him, but never really negatively affected my childhood with him. Most pictures and memories I have of my dad, he does have a beer in his hand, but he was there. And he is supportive. My siblings and I were really worried about his health a few years ago, and did a sort of "intervention" with him. It didn't work. He never really said anything about. He tried to quit that and smoking, but it didn't last long.

My parents are still together, just celebrated their 40th anniversary. They're very much in love and successfully raised 6 children together. I guess you could say I got lucky in terms of my dad's alcoholism. I don't know if it's the norm, probably not, but it's not impossible.

Honestly, people define alcoholism differently, but this doesn't sound like alcoholism to me, and I wouldn't call it that, at least from what you're posted here. I don't really care how much or how often someone drinks. I only consider it alcoholism if it's having a negative effect on the person's life and ability to function. Someone who managed to stay in a _loving_ marriage for 40 years, raise 6 kids, and keep working, doesn't sound like an alcoholic at all. It is too bad he's damaging his health, though.


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mrs. Turner* 
As some of you know from my other posts, my dh is an alcoholic. I'm barely holding on in this marriage, and sometimes I think I'm only still here because of the kids. I was a child of divorce and it pains me to this day. I don't want them to go through it. However, I want to do what's best for them, and if it's leaving, then I will.

Question - If you have/had an alcoholic father who was NOT physically or verbally/emotionally abusive, and your parents stayed together, are you happy about that? Would you have preferred it if your mother had divorced him, if so why? What was it like for you?

I know this is a really difficult subject. I'm looking for help and advice, and of course support is always appreciated.

Thanks.

I don't have time to read all the replies, but I thought I'd speak up. My own father was an alcoholic. He was not abusive to me or my brother, and was never physically abusive to my mom. He was neglectful, to me and my brother, and I think emotionally abusive to my mother. He was also unreliable and unavailable and a drain financially on our family. There was always a lot of fighting and arguing. My father was inclined to do unpredictable things. We had to go to work with my mom, rather than stay home with him, because he would do things like leave us alone in the house and go out for hours.

I can honestly say that the day my mother finally threw my father out of the house was the best day of my life. I say that even though we lived in poverty for quite a few years afterward, before my mom got back on her feet and got some training and a good job. He left, and our house was a peaceful, loving, consistent environment again. I can distinctly remember even though I was only 10 being so so so glad that he was gone.

I've since rekindled a relationship with my dad, and that's wonderful, but I'm still glad she made him leave (it was horrendous-- she needed a restraint order and the cops at the house many times before he finally got the point). I'm proud of my mother for making the decision, and making it stick, and being a fantastic parent for the rest of my childhood, even through really difficult financial circumstances.


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## MadiMamacita (Jan 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 

Honestly, people define alcoholism differently, but this doesn't sound like alcoholism to me, and I wouldn't call it that, at least from what you're posted here. I don't really care how much or how often someone drinks. I only consider it alcoholism if it's having a negative effect on the person's life and ability to function. Someone who managed to stay in a _loving_ marriage for 40 years, raise 6 kids, and keep working, doesn't sound like an alcoholic at all. It is too bad he's damaging his health, though.









I have agreed with everything you have said up until this point.
But I think its really dangerous and hurtful to start telling people that their experience is not valid because you have had a different or more extreme experience.

DSM IV criteria for diagnosis of alcoholism-
requires 3 or more of the following symtoms:
1. tolerance, as defined by either of the following:
* a need for markedly increased amounts of the substance to achieve intoxication or desired effect
* markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount of substance
2. withdrawal, as manifested by either of the following:
* the characteristic withdrawal syndrome for the substance
* the same (or a closely related) substance is taken to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms
3. the substance is often taken in larger amounts or over a longer period than was intended
4. there is a persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control substance use
5. a great deal of time is spent in activities to obtain the substance, use the substance, or recover from its effects
6. important social, occupational or recreational activities are given up or reduced because of substance use
7. the substance use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent physical or psychological problem that is likely to have been caused or exacerbated by the substance (e.g., continued drinking despite recognition that an ulcer was made worse by alcohol consumption)

in the pp's case, her dad tried to quit (#4) knows it's harming his health (#7) and I'd assume that if he drinks several beers every night either or both #1 and 2, or really 3, would also apply.
And this is just a snippet of the PP's life.

Please don't flame me for saying this, but I think that given the personal nature of this thread, and the stigma often attached to having an alcoholic parent/partner/whomever, it should be a safe place to share experiences. IMO its not really an appropriate place to debate people on whether or not they have an alcoholic parent.
I think the OP was looking for a range of opinions and experiences, and this PP shared the experience of her alcoholic father who didn't really negatively impact her life. This was not the case for you, me, or many other posters. But that doesn't make her experiences any less valid. End rant!


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## Mal85 (Sep 3, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 

Honestly, people define alcoholism differently, but this doesn't sound like alcoholism to me, and I wouldn't call it that, at least from what you're posted here. I don't really care how much or how often someone drinks. I only consider it alcoholism if it's having a negative effect on the person's life and ability to function. Someone who managed to stay in a _loving_ marriage for 40 years, raise 6 kids, and keep working, doesn't sound like an alcoholic at all. It is too bad he's damaging his health, though.









I can see what you're saying. But the reason I define it in such terms is because of his dependence on it. I know he can't go a night without a drink. He becomes physically ill and drained of energy and depressed, the works, without drinking. It's something his body has come to need, so it is an addiction for him. For that reason, he is an alcoholic.

I wouldn't call him a drunk, per se, I suppose. He keeps his behavior in check, aside from the random New Year's Eve or wedding reception when he would get wasted. But he's not a violent drunk, so those times were really just humorous and a little embarrassing.

I guess the only real affect it's had on my life is that I don't drink. I don't like the feeling of even being tipsy. I experimented as a teen and didn't like it then, nor do I now.


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## Mal85 (Sep 3, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MadiMamacita* 
I have agreed with everything you have said up until this point.
But I think its really dangerous and hurtful to start telling people that their experience is not valid because you have had a different or more extreme experience.

DSM IV criteria for diagnosis of alcoholism-
requires 3 or more of the following symtoms:
1. tolerance, as defined by either of the following:
* a need for markedly increased amounts of the substance to achieve intoxication or desired effect
* markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount of substance
2. withdrawal, as manifested by either of the following:
* the characteristic withdrawal syndrome for the substance
* the same (or a closely related) substance is taken to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms
3. the substance is often taken in larger amounts or over a longer period than was intended
4. there is a persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control substance use
5. a great deal of time is spent in activities to obtain the substance, use the substance, or recover from its effects
6. important social, occupational or recreational activities are given up or reduced because of substance use
7. the substance use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent physical or psychological problem that is likely to have been caused or exacerbated by the substance (e.g., continued drinking despite recognition that an ulcer was made worse by alcohol consumption)

in the pp's case, her dad tried to quit (#4) knows it's harming his health (#7) and I'd assume that if he drinks several beers every night either or both #1 and 2, or really 3, would also apply.
And this is just a snippet of the PP's life.

Please don't flame me for saying this, but I think that given the personal nature of this thread, and the stigma often attached to having an alcoholic parent/partner/whomever, it should be a safe place to share experiences. IMO its not really an appropriate place to debate people on whether or not they have an alcoholic parent.
I think the OP was looking for a range of opinions and experiences, and this PP shared the experience of her alcoholic father who didn't really negatively impact her life. This was not the case for you, me, or many other posters. But that doesn't make her experiences any less valid. End rant!

Thank you for this.


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## MorgnsGrl (Dec 14, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Porcelain Interior* 
Honestly (I come from a long line of drunks) I don't think you can be a parent and be an alcoholic and not be abusive.

Abuse can take so many forms. Being unavailable emotionally is abusive. It can cause just as many problems as being verbally/physically abusive.

Seeing other people "pretend" everything is fine and not acknowledge the elephant in the room (his drinking) is also extremely dysfunctional and damaging.

I agree with this. My dad was a functioning alcoholic when I was living at home and only deteriorated into being less and less functional when I was in my late 20s. He was never "abusive" in a traditional sense, physically or verbally. But I grew up confused because when I tried to say that Daddy drinks a lot of alcohol, I was told that I was wrong, no, he didn't. It made me doubt my own sanity/reality, and that has permeated every aspect of my adult life. I'm a classic ACOA.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MorgnsGrl* 
I agree with this. My dad was a functioning alcoholic when I was living at home and only deteriorated into being less and less functional when I was in my late 20s. He was never "abusive" in a traditional sense, physically or verbally. But I grew up confused because when I tried to say that Daddy drinks a lot of alcohol, I was told that I was wrong, no, he didn't. It made me doubt my own sanity/reality, and that has permeated every aspect of my adult life. I'm a classic ACOA.

That's a good point. You aren't allowed to talk about so many things. It's like reality doesn't exist. It's such a weird way to live. It's funny because when I am back around my parents I go right back into that again, the weird way we were together. I fall into my old role. I was the perfect one, who wasn't allowed to do anything wrong or be bad at anything. I always end up with a headache when I see anyone in my family. It's just too stressful.


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## lovebug (Nov 2, 2004)

Quote:

Question - If you have/had an alcoholic father who was NOT physically or verbally/emotionally abusive, and your parents stayed together, are you happy about that? Would you have preferred it if your mother had divorced him, if so why? What was it like for you?
this is a hard question to answer for me.

i saw what my mom when through and how hard it was for her. the only thing is that i wish is that she would have been happy! she had to do so much 'cover up' and it was not until i was older that did i see that. she at many times had to play mom and dad. that was SOOO hard for me later in life. she use to always say things like "your dad and I are so proud of you" he never said it cuz he was too drunk. and sometime i felt like she was lying for him. and when my dad would endlessly LIE and never live up to his end of that bargain because the drinking was much more impotent! i really felt his liquid child (the alcohol) was better and made him happier then his flesh and blood child









am i glad they stayed together? i dont know and will never know anything different! i will say that i have 'let what my dad was like' go and now relies that what my mom 'did' was just as bad as what my dad 'did' because for the most part she was an enabler. i no longer feel sorry for her or him and have learned to love them both very much.

i also ended up marring an alcoholic and i really do feel if had something to do with my mother staying with my father (but would never blame ether of them). but i did not want to be blind like i felt my mom was. i demanded that he get help or i was out! he is no longer drinking









i really feel that you need to do some soul searching! you need to evaluate your situation because even though he is not physical/verbally abusive he is still hurting them and YOU! as long as he is drinking you nor his kids will ever be first the bottle always will be. and as i learned he may not be verbal now but it can lead that way.

have you tried alinon(sp?)? it was helpful for me and i started as a teen in the teen part...








s good luck!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MadiMamacita* 
I have agreed with everything you have said up until this point.
But I think its really dangerous and hurtful to start telling people that their experience is not valid because you have had a different or more extreme experience.

DSM IV criteria for diagnosis of alcoholism-
requires 3 or more of the following symtoms:
1. tolerance, as defined by either of the following:
* a need for markedly increased amounts of the substance to achieve intoxication or desired effect
* markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount of substance
2. withdrawal, as manifested by either of the following:
* the characteristic withdrawal syndrome for the substance
* the same (or a closely related) substance is taken to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms
3. the substance is often taken in larger amounts or over a longer period than was intended
4. there is a persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control substance use
5. a great deal of time is spent in activities to obtain the substance, use the substance, or recover from its effects
6. important social, occupational or recreational activities are given up or reduced because of substance use
7. the substance use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent physical or psychological problem that is likely to have been caused or exacerbated by the substance (e.g., continued drinking despite recognition that an ulcer was made worse by alcohol consumption)

in the pp's case, her dad tried to quit (#4) knows it's harming his health (#7) and I'd assume that if he drinks several beers every night either or both #1 and 2, or really 3, would also apply.
And this is just a snippet of the PP's life.

Please don't flame me for saying this, but I think that given the personal nature of this thread, and the stigma often attached to having an alcoholic parent/partner/whomever, it should be a safe place to share experiences. IMO its not really an appropriate place to debate people on whether or not they have an alcoholic parent.
I think the OP was looking for a range of opinions and experiences, and this PP shared the experience of her alcoholic father who didn't really negatively impact her life. This was not the case for you, me, or many other posters. But that doesn't make her experiences any less valid. End rant!

Fair enough. I've never come across the DSM IV criteria before, and they're quite different from anything I've ever seen referred to as alchoholism. (I'll also add, though, that almost every alcoholic I've ever known, has required _less_ alcohol to show an effect than the non-alcoholics around them - but they can keep going a _lot_ longer - so this criteria seems...odd.) In any case, I wasn't trying to define the other poster's life. As I read her post (apparently incorrectly, from her posts after yours), I got the impression she was just calling her dad an alcoholic because she'd been told that's what it sounds like...not because she ever experienced him that way. I definitely wasn't trying to argue with her experience. I was pointing out that those who convinced her (as I interpreted her post) that her dad was an alcoholic weren't necessarily right. I was obviously mistaken about where she was coming from.

My apologies, Mal85. I certainly wasn't trying to argue with your experiences with your dad's drinking!


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## MadiMamacita (Jan 29, 2006)

NM, irrelevant.


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

My situation doesn't exactly fit your description (my dad is not alcoholic) but I did have two stepfathers with addiction problems, and I will tell you that it is awful to watch your mother in that situation.

Having a beaten-down mother (physically or otherwise) is not good for children. My sister has never forgiven my mother for putting us through that when, theoretically, she could have left and we could have had a happy mom and a healthy family again.

Best of luck to you, OP.


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## Barefoot~Baker (Dec 25, 2008)

Thank you SO MUCH. Your stories are really helping me to sort things out.

I went to my 2nd Al-Anon meeting yesterday. I don't want to be miserable in front of the kids (of course I don't want to be miserable at all!). I have been so unhappy and I don't want it to affect them.

They are unaware of the problem so far, but I know that it's only a matter of time. My oldest is 6.

Al-Anon is helping SO MUCH already. I came out of that meeting so encouraged and refreshed, even loving my husband, a feeling that has been wavering.

I go back and forth all the time whether I want to continue or not. Right now, I do. Of course there are a lot of factors and life is complicated, but basically, I want to put all of my energies into making this a happy home for my kids. I want to learn from Al-Anon and other people (like all of you) what there experiences were like and glean wisdom so that I can work on my family.

Aside from these problems, my dh is such a loving, caring, involved father and I've thanked the Lord so many times for that. The kids adore him.

Thanks a lot everyone. If any of you want to pm me with experiences that you are willing to share but don't want to post on the thread, please do


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## cdmommie (Aug 7, 2007)

I can tell you my story if you would like, but I'm not entirely comfortable discussing it publicly. You can pm me if you want.

I will warn you not to wait until it's too late. My mom always said "if" he gets abusive and "if" he........ She would leave. I wish she had left earlier, for her sake, for my sake and for my sister's sake. She stayed "for" us, but in the end it hurt us all much more because she waited for the "ifs" that she knew would eventually come. Even when he was cheating she "stuck it out". So we would have the ideal family. In my opinion, screw "ideal" and do what's best for you and your kids.

I hope you guys can make it through, but if you can't don't feel guilty. You do what you have to in order to give yourself and your kids the best future possible.


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## elanorh (Feb 1, 2006)

My Dad was at his best financially while he was a raging alcoholic. He's self-employed, those were the best years for his business. And I've never in my life seen him and known he was drunk. He doesn't slur his words, he doesn't become unsteady, but he can put back literally gallons of booze. One of my sisters stopped drinking hard liquor when she realized she could do the same (this sounds like she has a drinking problem, but she doesn't - she's an occasional, a few times a year drinker, but it freaked her out to drink a bottle of whiskey and not be 'drunk'). Dad never raised a hand against us - he would use Mom as his proxy. That was his proof that he wasn't an alcoholic (his Dad used to beat him). But he was verbally and emotionally abusive. Not in a 'mean' way - but I remember when he was at the bar drinking, how we would all spend the night cleaning the house as well as we could, because that was what usually set him off when he got home (if the house was messy).

Dad went to treatment when I was in the fourth grade. His trigger to get help was realizing he didn't believe in God anymore. Prior to that, my sisters and I used to talk about WHEN our parents would divorce, who would stay with Dad and who would stay with Mom. We knew Mom would need someone to help take care of the little girls (6 of us kids) - but Dad would need someone to take care of him (enabling behaviors are learned early). We would talk about how much easier it would be if Dad would just die. We wished for it and hoped for it. Bear in mind, this is an 8 year old, 7 year old, and 10 year old having this conversation.

When Dad went to treatment, Mom started going to Al-Anon and we kids started going to Ala-teen. Although, in our small community, it was more "Ala-kid," because we had kids from 7 to 18 in our group. It met when Al-anon met. THIS MADE THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE FOR ALL OF US INCLUDING MOM. We kids needed to learn how to forgive Dad, and how to live with him while he was sober. Mom needed to learn the same. I'm really glad we did this, because it gave us the knowledge and tools we needed to be able to recognize when we were developing codependent relationships as adults.

Mom and Dad are still happily married. I know now as an adult watching their relationship that she could never ever have left Dad. And he wouldn't have left her. Dad was clean and sober for fifteen years. That said, Dad has been off the wagon for about ten years now. He's telling himself (and her) that he's managing it now, because it's 'only' in certain situations. But alcoholism is more than how many drinks you have, as Dad himself explained to me. It's your behavior too. And Dad is back to being volatile emotionally, verbally abusive, etc. It's the Dad I had as a kid. I feel bad for my youngest siblings, because they grew up with a different Dad - one who was kind, and invested, and thoughtful - and then in their teen years, had to live with this other version without the support of Ala-teen (and Mom won't go back to Al-anon because some of her clients go there now and it wouldn't be comfortable or ethical for her to be there, she's a mental health nurse). Even today, we kids find ourselves talking about what Mom will be able to do once Dad passes away (he's older than her and in worse health).







Despite the knowledge that honestly I don't think Mom would know what to do with herself if she lost Dad.









I guess, my long story short - I've seen a sober alcoholic, and I've seen the before treatment and after he fell off the wagon version, too. Even as an adult, I find myself sometimes falling into the same codependent behaviors that my mother had/has with my Dad - fortunately I'm self-aware enough that I don't do it (my mom's approach was martyrdom often)- and dh is not an addict, so he's usually completely befuddled if I try to plug in that behavior anyway.

Think of the long-term for your kids. If you stay with your husband, get yourself to Al-anon and get your kids into Ala-kids (or teens or whatever). At the very least, they should not be learning those codependent behaviors from you.

But don't assume that they don't know what's going on and aren't impacted. Kids know a lot more than they let on. If the only way you can get yourself and them in a safe and healthy place (emotionally, physically, financially), is to separate or divorce your husband, then do it. And KEEP going to Al-Anon. I am positive that one reason Dad is the way he is, is that despite his parents' divorce, his mother never got any help or counseling at all. She was still vehemently angrily codependent towards her exhusband more than fifty years later.

Looking at the men my sisters have chosen to marry, I think one is an alcoholic (or has leanings in that direction). But all of them have personality traits in common with Dad, and each one of us does interact with our dhs at least in part in ways similar to our parents. I think this is such a common thing in kids from our situation (I was also startled to find how many of the friends I just 'clicked' with in college were from alcoholic homes). If you want to break this cycle for your kids, you may need to make some difficult decisions over the long term - leaving your dh would not be the last difficult decision, either. You would need to continue to get help for yourself so that you didn't end up in a different version of the same old song with someone else.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elanorh* 
My Dad was at his best financially while he was a raging alcoholic. He's self-employed, those were the best years for his business. And I've never in my life seen him and known he was drunk. He doesn't slur his words, he doesn't become unsteady, but he can put back literally gallons of booze.

Yeah, my dad was like that, too. So was my ex-BIL. I could tell when they were drunk, but only because they both had this completely insane sense of humour when they were hammered. (Actually, I've seen them both and known they were drunk, but only _very_ occasionally, and only after truly terrifying amounts of booze.) I do suspect some of that is biological, though...not everyone builds the same level of alcohol in their blood as other people. I know in my heavy drinking days, the booze hit me way faster and harder than the people I drank with. (I've since discovered that was probably at least partly because I was the only female in the bunch, and we metabolize alcohol differently.)

I honestly can't even imagine my dad being abusive, as such. But...even his sense of humour was hard to take sometimes. (The time he assured my sister repeatedly that he could drop a raw egg on the floor and it wouldn't break, then did it, said "oh - guess I was wrong" and left the egg for her to clean up comes to mind.) Honestly...aside from the appalling level of tension in our home, the worst part for me was that he'd pass out in the bathtub a lot. There were several times that I woke up in the wee small hours (anywhere from 2 to 4 in the morning), saw the bathroom light on and knocked on the door...and he didn't answer, and didn't answer, and didn't answer. Every time it happened, I was sure _this_ was going to be the time that he'd gone under and I was going to be the one to find his body. It was always such a relief to hear him sloshing around, and going "what? what?" That's...not a healthy way to live.


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## RiverTam (May 29, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
Fair enough. I've never come across the DSM IV criteria before, and they're quite different from anything I've ever seen referred to as alchoholism. (I'll also add, though, that almost every alcoholic I've ever known, has required _less_ alcohol to show an effect than the non-alcoholics around them - but they can keep going a _lot_ longer - so this criteria seems...odd.)

To be more fair to you, you should know that the DSM-IV have a category called "alcoholism." There are two categories -- "alcohol abuse" and "alcohol dependence." People who fit either category are often called "alcoholics," but they're not the same people. Even within the "alcohol dependence" category, there is a pretty wide variation of drinking patterns, history, and physical effects.


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## khanni (Jan 11, 2008)

My dad is a recovering alcoholic. He was verbally/mentally abusive, but did not turn so until I was about 8, so just because he is not now, does not mean he will not become so. And I have really vivid memories of my father when I was younger that really scared me. When I was 4, I asked him to tie my shoe, and I just remember him shaking so much and seeming completely unable to handle the task, and it really scaring me. I remember many harrowing rides in the car from his drunk driving. I remember being around a bunch of drunks and having an inappropriate knowledge of adult drunk behavior.

I wanted, more than anything else in the world, for my parents to be split up. Maybe not when I was really small, but definitely by the time I was 8. I even asked my mother to leave him when I was about 9 or 10 years old. He finally left when I was 12, and I was so relieved.

I am still really angry at my mother for not protecting me and taking care of the situation sooner. And she was totally screwed up by the time they split up and was virtually absent the rest of my childhood.


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## ainh (Jul 27, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *khanni* 

I wanted, more than anything else in the world, for my parents to be split up. Maybe not when I was really small, but definitely by the time I was 8.

I think this is key actually. Up to a certain age you don't know (consciously) that there is addiction that is fueling the family discord. You might think the non-addict is more of the problem, etc. I think that in some ways it's better to stay in the relationship in the early years (if it's a good enough situation for you) and leave once the kids are also ready to leave...if that makes sense?? And sometimes things do turn around? My dad was an addict (smoked pot morning, noon and night from before I was born until I was about 28 or so). He was a great father. My mom left him for other reasons and I still kind of wish they had stayed together. The interesting things is that he's had four 10 year relationships and the addiction was a issue for only one the women and not at all a problem for the other (none of them were addicts). The particulars make such a difference and it's tough to tell what to do in any given situation.

Anyway, I think I would leave if the kids wanted me to leave, but might try to stick it out until it was really a definite no-go for me or the kids. Addicts can be great dads...my dad was definitely my "comfort" parent and even after my parents were divorced I spent at least 50% of my time with him.


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## KittyDanger (Jan 27, 2009)

It's hard to say based on your description, because I don't know what behaviors he is exhibiting other than modeling drinking behavior that is inappropriate. I haven't read all of the comments so sorry if this has been said or if you further clarified.

My father is the type of alcoholic that your DH is. Not violent when he drinks, but drinks a lot, and early in the day, every day etc.

I would say, if you do not want to be married to him anymore, for whatever reason, then you should leave. But keep in mind that even though you no longer have an alcoholic husband you children will always have an alcoholic father. Divorce will never change that for them.


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## KirstenMary (Jun 1, 2004)

My dad was an alcoholic, but when I was five, he made the decision to stop drinking and never looked back. He also joined AA and was a steadfast member, but from the day he made that decision, he never, ever took another drink. He was also never abusive to either my mother or me. I am glad my parents stayed together because he died when I was 14, and had they divorced, I would not have had the time with him that I did.


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## Roxswood (Jun 29, 2006)

My Dad was a functional alcoholic I think, I know nothing about classifications but he managed to work long hours and didn't get into trouble in his job. He did get banned from driving for drunk driving when I was a child, and his marriage suffered awfully. He didn't drink every day but he got REALLY drunk at least 2 nights a week and I often as a teenager had to help him to bed, remind him not to pee in the wardrobe or down the stairs etc.
My parents divorced just a few years ago when I was 25. That wasn't fun. I don't know whether I'm happy they stayed together so long or not, growing up with their marriage wasn't fun but it wouldn't have been fun either way. I don't drink at all, I have insecurity issues etc but I don't think much worse than most other people and I have a very happy marriage and a great husband so their relationship and life modelling didn't mess up my chance of a good life.


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## MacKinnon (Jun 15, 2004)

My Dad was/is a functional alchoholic, although he is much more in check now, despite the fact he continues to drink. He kept a very demanding job, working long hours. He NEVER drove after drinking, and always drank at home. My Mother also drank a lot although she binge drank, not the daily heavy drinking my Dad did. My Dad was generally a "happy drunk" although he was very unpredictable, and would sometimes have big rage filled outbursts, in which case he would become physically abusive to me, only. Never my other sibs or my mom. My brother and sister hid, while I was the one that pushed the envelope, and got the brunt of the response. My parents divorced when I was 19 and in college, my brother 15, and my sister 12. It had very different effects on us. Ironically, it is my sister that has struggled the most. My Dad moved back to Europe after the divorce, and we saw him twice a year. My Mom could not hold down a job, lived off her alimony and child support, and was largely just a friend to my sister. She was kind to her, but very neglectful as a parent, announcing when my sister was 15 that she (my mom) had been a parent for twenty years and was now done with the whole thing. My brother and sister had no rules, no guidance or structure to their teen years, after my Dad left. As he was the one with the expectations, the consequences, the rules. My mom was, and is, very nice and well intended, but that's not enough when you are 15 and struggling to find your place in the world.

Now, 12 years later, my Dad spent 6 years alone in Europe and Asia, for work. He returned home very regretful of all that he messed up, and missed in our childhoods. He still drinks, but has limited himself to only wine and only in the evenings. I have only seen him drunk a handful of times in the 6 years since he moved home. He is remarried, and by all outward appearances, has a healthy marriage. His wife does not drink, except on rare occasions when she might have a glass of champagne or something. She has imposed rules, and keeps tabs on my Dad's drinking. My Mom also remarried someone who doesn't drink, and won't tolerate her drinking, although my Mom has continued to be a closet binge drinker, now hiding her alcohol consumption from her husband.

I would encourage you, first and foremost OP, to keep the focus on what environment is best for you and your children to grow and thrive in. I don't think any decision should be made solely "for the kids" or because he is an alcoholic. There is no rule book here, no right answer. I wish you and your family the best of luck as you negotiate this.


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## Barefoot~Baker (Dec 25, 2008)

Hi everyone, I wanted to let you all know that I left him 3 weeks ago. I'd been going to Al Anon and getting a lot of advice. I have been trying for a long time to put my own misery aside for my kids, but his drinking is so bad, that I know now that I'm not doing my kids any favors by staying.

So, things are difficult, but even still, I feel so much better not being around a drunkard all day and now that I'm out of that situation I realize that it would be not be a good thing for my kids to grow up with his drunk and stoned state being normal for them.

Thanks so much for all of your advice, it means a lot


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

I am a child of divorce and also the child of an alcoholic father. he was not abusive as an alcoholic, but a major embarassment and a poor example for me. I feel it is in the best interest of the children for parents to divorce if they are not happy together, for any reason. Children need to see their parents want to be happy so that they will want the same standards for themselves.


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## hopefulfaith (Mar 28, 2005)

Good for you.

My father is an alcoholic, and my mother left him when we were 7, 6, and 4. It was the best thing she could have ever done for us.

At that point, we didn't know anything about it -- I remember that we had to go to bed waaaay early a lot of nights, and Mom would let us play in our rooms until we got tired. Years later, she explained that he had started drinking and she didn't want us to see him drunk. We never knew at all back then.

He married a woman who is a total enabler - I remember going to visit them (summer for two weeks, every other Christmas, etc.) and she would buy beer on sale and hide it under beds, etc., because he could go through a 24 pack a night and still be pleasant and conversational. He's switched to wine these days, but God help you if he gets out the liquor. He's a nice drunk, but he's still drunk and slurring and stumbling.









We all figured it out after the divorce, but my mom protected us from the knowledge/experience beforehand. Leaving him was the best thing she could have ever done. Life was difficult after that -- she had been a SAHM for 8 years and had to start a career over, etc., but she did and we were much better off than if we had stayed with him. Life would have been much easier financially, that's for sure, but I have a hard time imagining having friends over, playing sports, etc. and everything with him drunk every night.

Divorce is not easy - I don't want to minimize it - but it was so much better for us than staying with him. My dad is a wonderful guy, but he is an alcoholic, and alcoholics can't be healthy parents.

Blessings, mama -- it is so different for every family, and I don't think there is one hard and fast answer -- but for us it was best that she left him, and I hope you find peace and strength in your decisions. I will pray for you.


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## ~Charlie's~Angel~ (Mar 17, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mrs. Turner* 
Hi everyone, I wanted to let you all know that I left him 3 weeks ago. I'd been going to Al Anon and getting a lot of advice. I have been trying for a long time to put my own misery aside for my kids, but his drinking is so bad, that I know now that I'm not doing my kids any favors by staying.

So, things are difficult, but even still, I feel so much better not being around a drunkard all day and now that I'm out of that situation I realize that it would be not be a good thing for my kids to grow up with his drunk and stoned state being normal for them.

Thanks so much for all of your advice, it means a lot









WOW. Just WOW.







mama. And good luck!


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