# A word from a teen



## TenFedNed (May 4, 2005)

Hi!

I've ended up on these forums after another research on circumcision on the web.
I'd like to thank you all for your awareness of this evil procedure and your will to stop it.
Only people with such a good heart like yours can understand how useless and painful circ is.
I'm sure that these forums have helped many parents to decide to stop this madness... pain... torture.

I'm 15 years old teen, intact (








). I'm happy that there are people like you, helping us not getting our foreskins chopped off for no reason at all.

I am proud to say that I helped 2 boys decide not to have the circ done on them, even though it was part of their religion (and they are still happy).

In my opinion parents have no right to decide to chop off part of their boy's body just because they _think_ it's better, or even worse, for them to look like their father or brothers or whatever.

I especially hate the "it's cleaner' rumors. I'm uncut, with a long foreskin (not too long, but it covers the whole head of the penis) and it is very clean.
I know boys who had their foreskins cut just because their so called "friends" suggested them it and told them it's cleaner.

Some don't even realize that circ is an operation where they cut a part of you, they think they just "make the head always visible" and when they go to the operation room, they can't say NO.

I know one boy who had circumcision done for religious reasons when he was 6. The pain killers didn't affect him, so, they just TIED HIM AND HELD HIM WHILE CUTTING! He said it was so painful that most of the (not so small) hospital could hear his screams.

Another example that I witnessed was another guy from my class. His mom married with another guy who apparently was obsessed with circumcision... needless to say, he was cut in a year after they engaged.

Parents should be more educated on this stuff.
I know that if my mom would have me circ'ed, I'd NEVER forgive her.

I speak now for many teens out there...Thank you.
I specially thank Frank as it seems that he is one of the best contributors


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## hummingbear (Apr 17, 2003)

Welcome

I look forward to yuor contributions to this forum.

Is this for real?







:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TenFedNed*
Another example that I witnessed was another guy from my class. His mom married with another guy who apparently was obsessed with circumcision... needless to say, he was cut in a year after they engaged.

Ignorance is one thing, but this?? Pardon me, but I think that this is child abuse!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I hope that guy is getting all the support he needs.


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## iamama (Jul 14, 2003)

Nice post! Its nice to hear from someone who is a teen being uncut.


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## TenFedNed (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hummingbear*
Welcome

I look forward to yuor contributions to this forum.

Is this for real?







:

Ignorance is one thing, but this?? Pardon me, but I think that this is child abuse!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I hope that guy is getting all the support he needs.

It's all true :'(.

Whats wrong with our society?


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TenFedNed*
I speak now for many teens out there...Thank you.
I specially thank Frank as it seems that he is one of the best contributors









Thanks for the recognition!

Frank


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

I am glad to hear your testimony! Welcome!!!


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## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TenFedNed*
Hi!
I know one boy who had circumcision done for religious reasons when he was 6. The pain killers didn't affect him, so, they just TIED HIM AND HELD HIM WHILE CUTTING! He said it was so painful that most of the (not so small) hospital could hear his screams.

This caught my eye. Is this really OK in USA?
I know this board is dedicated mostly to stop circumcision in USA but I thought this would be excellent reminder that most boys in the world are circumcised just like this. And the really saddest part is that no human rights organisation dare to speak up against it because this practise is done for you-know-what reasons.

I have met men (refugees)from Turkey and Palestine who have said that that day was the most horrible day in their life and they never forget the pain. And this is often done in front of the whole family. One can only imagine what that does to little boy's mind.

To OP, I wish there were more young men speaking up on mothering boards against circumcision. Thanks for posting this.


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## TenFedNed (May 4, 2005)

I am not sure if it would be legal in USA, but in this cursed place (Israel) nobody cares.

For example they might force me (







) of getting me circ'ed in army or rather beat me up.
And I'm not even Jewish, so what's the %$^%$^ point?


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

welcome to MDC.

Frank *is* one of the best contributors.









you should let your friend(s) know about restoration, if you haven't already.

~ k., who thinks it's great that the younger generation are slowly opening their eyes to the idiocies of our society...


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TenFedNed*
I am not sure if it would be legal in USA, but in this cursed place (Israel) nobody cares.

For example they might force me (







) of getting me circ'ed in army or rather beat me up.
And I'm not even Jewish, so what's the %$^%$^ point?


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## laprettygurl (Dec 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TenFedNed*

For example they might force me (







) of getting me circ'ed in army or rather beat me up.

First of all.







Are you saying if you join the army you HAVE to circ or are just going to do it to not get beat up?

Welcome! I have no sons (yet) but my boyfriend is intact! He's clean because there's such things as SOAP!


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## TenFedNed (May 4, 2005)

Ill probably have to get cut or ill be beaten up and mocked for the whole 3 years period of army (noting that they REQUIRE me to join)









I'd never get cut but... I really don't know. I probably will just get beaten up and stay intact.

I begin to understand why so many people in this world hate israelis. You can delete this post, but it's what i think and i didnt come here to lie.


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## RosieTook (Sep 4, 2004)

Quote:

I have met men (refugees)from Turkey and Palestine who have said that that day was the most horrible day in their life and they never forget the pain.
Or course RIC is the way to go, cause then they can never voice their agony.









I am, of course, being sarcastic...it is sickening!









Welcome to the forum, it's great to hear from you!!


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## TenFedNed (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RosieTook*
Welcome to the forum, it's great to hear from you!!

Thanks!


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## njeb (Sep 10, 2002)

Welcome!







It's great to know you!








So you're from Israel. I imagine that's not an easy place for an intact man to live! Have you lived there all your life? Is army service compulsory for everyone who lives there?


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## TenFedNed (May 4, 2005)

I live here from ~1995 when I moved here from Ukraine (didn't have much choice, being 4 or 5 years old at the time).
My mom thought we would have better job opportunities here... wrong.

And yeah, being intact in a place like this is hell.
Most of the intact people i know got circumcised because of peer pressure and because they were afraid to get beaten up in army.

I just hope I could move somewhere before it's too late :-/


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TenFedNed*
And yeah, being intact in a place like this is hell.
Most of the intact people i know got circumcised because of peer pressure and because they were afraid to get beaten up in army.

OMG, that's awful!







to all of them, and you. I hope this doesn't happen to you too.


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## TenFedNed (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*
OMG, that's awful!







to all of them, and you. I hope this doesn't happen to you too.

Thanks! Though I'm still stuck and I don't know what to do








Suggestions, anyone?


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Yes, work with your parents to protect you until you can get out of the country and then move to a safe place as soon as possible. Most likely, to the US or a western European country.

Frank


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## TenFedNed (May 4, 2005)

There won't be any problems before army, before i'm 18 as nobody really knows i'm intact.
When i'll have to join the army however, It'll be hell.

I see no way to get out of this except moving from this country before I'm 18, but how and where?


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TenFedNed*
When i'll have to join the army however, It'll be hell.

I had no idea that this was mandatory. What is the reason? Probably not a logical one, I guess.


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## hummingbear (Apr 17, 2003)

Like Frank said, if your parent's are supportive you have great allies in creating something incredible for yourself. Find a dream. Apply in another country for a scholarship?, peacecorps? simply move and get a job? Start digging and I am sure you will find something. If you are old enough to be in an army you sure are old enough to start your own exploration. Opportunities are plentiful: more so than many people think they are.

Good luck to you.


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## TenFedNed (May 4, 2005)

Well, I've been trying to contact UK's, USA's immigration offices and asking them for advice but I never got any reply.
As for parental support - my mom doesn't know about this problem, and if she will, her choice would be to circumcise (yeah, I know







).
I might get some money for tickets for the plain and maybe a bit more as after studying programming and system development (just to get money to move out of this place!) I found a programming partner and we might sell a couple of programs (he's from UK).
Either way, with some money or without, I have nobody abroad who could provide me place to live in until I pay off the bills and buy an apartment.









I'll be grateful for your suggestions as I'm totally depressed from all this...


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## Acksiom (Jun 10, 2004)

I wonder if ARC would be interested in an asylum case. . . .


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## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

To OP. Have you ever contacted www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org (there is a contact us - link on their site). I know they have connections to Israel, maybe they would know how to find support group - you cannot be the only intact male there.

ps. http://www.kahal.org/


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## TenFedNed (May 4, 2005)

Those support groups are for:
1) Jewish
2) Before/After army

Doesn't really work for me in any case. In army you don't chose who you want to be with.
The only way is to leave this country (which I wanted to do the past 8 years)


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## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

I've never heard that those organisations would not help anyone who asks advice and help - jewish or not.

Do you still have citizenship of your old home country Ukraine? Any relatives there?

Have you concidered a conscientious objector status? I know they throw you in jail for that - no matter what your religion is - but maybe better than 3 years in army?

I recently read an article about parents in Israel leaving their sons intact, so you absolutely cannot be the only one.

As far as moving to EU countries, it isn't easy. Even if you come to study, you have to have lot of €€€€ to get a study-visa. Not to mention other VISAs or residency permits. You might get a short term visitors/student visa but then you have to go back to Israel and army(how old they still draft?)

USA is even more difficult especially after 9/11 & homeland security laws and especially the area you are trying to immigrate from. It would be a very long process, lot of questions asked in small rooms under bright lights and you would have to have really really good reason and lots of $$$$$$$$$.

Not very comforting, I know :/


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TenFedNed*
..
And yeah, being intact in a place like this is hell.
Most of the intact people i know got circumcised because of peer pressure and because they were afraid to get beaten up in army.

I just hope I could move somewhere before it's too late :-/


I am really sorry to hear of your situation. I do think it speaks volumes, that even though the social pressure is high, you still value being intact. Usually I hear from people saying the "locker room" situation is so terrible that it's more humane to circ than let a boy be teased. In my opinion, it's the teasers that are the problem, not the foreskin.

I hope you are able to escape your country.


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## TenFedNed (May 4, 2005)

kxsiven, yeah i can do many things to get in jail. But then I will never be allowed to leave the country (and lets just say, i wont be able to live with that).
Plus I'll still have to join army afterwards









Quote:

I recently read an article about parents in Israel leaving their sons intact, so you absolutely cannot be the only one.
Yeah, some are intact, untill army. Even the small % who stay intact doesnt make it any better.

Thank you all for the advice!

Any other suggestions?


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## rainbowmoon (Oct 17, 2003)

what an awful situation!







I hope you are able to find a way out of joining the Army. you have lots of time to work out a plan at least and get out of there!


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## TenFedNed (May 4, 2005)

2 years might seem a lot (i'll be 16 in a month) but it really isn't







.

I'm still open to any suggestions


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

i don't mean to be dense, and please forgive me if i'm being an idiot, but ~ could you just leave?


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *klothos*
i don't mean to be dense, and please forgive me if i'm being an idiot, but ~ could you just leave?

He's only 15. To me it sounds like he is way more mature than his years though, too bad that doesn't count for more than actual age.


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## TenFedNed (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*
He's only 15. To me it sounds like he is way more mature than his years though, too bad that doesn't count for more than actual age.

Thank you for not treating me as a kid.
Unfortunately, as you have said, maturity is being count in years, not wisdom which means I can't "just leave" now. What I'm trying to do is finding a way to leave when I'm exactly 18. Or either find a way for me and my mom to move.

In any case I appreciate your suggestions but I'm still open for more.
I have to find a way


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## ThomasL (Sep 2, 2003)

edited


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## Stardust27 (Feb 6, 2004)

Oh my God, what a horrible, horrible situation you're in!

Young Israelis are really forced to do military service and they go to jail if they don't want to? There's no official conscientious objector status? They don't have any legal protection against being harassed and beaten up by fellow soldiers? Whoa, some more reasons to doubt the story of Israel being the "paradigm of freedom and democracy in the region"... I mean those are absolute basics for a free society! And yeah, I agree that it's because otherwise the ones in power would soon run out of human material to fight their war(s)...

But that doesn't help with your situation of course...

Try to contact the peace movement or human rights organizations in Israel. There must be others who don't want to join the army and they must have ways to help those young people, contacts to get them out of the country and support them abroad, whatever.

I think the idea of studying somewhere abroad is a good one. As far as I know, at least in Europe, it's not that difficult to be allowed to stay in a country as long as you're a student. And once you've established yourself and have got your diploma, there might be new opportunities.

Quote:

Either way, with some money or without, I have nobody abroad who could provide me place to live in until I pay off the bills and buy an apartment.
As a foreign student, you can get scholarships and usually there are students' hostels etc. where you can live very cheap. Contact the offices for international students at a university you could imagine attending and I'm sure they'll be able to help you. If you're good with computers and programming, it should be relatively easy to get jobs as a casual worker to begin with. You might face some hard years without luxury of course, but in the end, it will be worth it.

Maybe your case would even be enough to be awarded asylum? It sounds like a combination of forced military service, threat of assault and battery in the military, religious discrimination (BTW, just curious, what religion do you identify yourself with, if any at all?) and pressure to have an involuntary body modification done. I once read of a case in Germany where a Turkish man got accepted because he was afraid to be involuntarily circumcised. Yep, here it is:

http://www.courtchallenge.com/papers/addend1.html

In 1991 a German court awarded political asylum to a Turkish man based on his fear of forced circumcision. The court found:
There may be...no doubt that a circumcision which has taken place against the will of the person affected shows...a violation of his physical and psychological integrity which is of significance to asylum.

Judgement of 5 Nov. 1991, BVerwG, Bundesverwaltungsgericht Federal Administrative Court, 107 DVBI 828-830 (1992).

Someone already mentioned ARC - ask them about it: http://www.arclaw.org

Maybe you could also start a support group of young men in similar situations, create a website, an e-mail list, or something like that. The more people, the more ideas and solutions how to avoid military service. Maybe intact men in the army, even if they are few, could begin to support each other and form a "front" against the others.

If it all fails and you end up in the army and being harassed for having a foreskin, try to remember that they're most likely doing this to you because they envy you, because your intactness threatens the system of thought they've build to be able to deal with what was done to them.

The best of luck to you!









Stardust


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## TenFedNed (May 4, 2005)

Quote:

Young Israelis are really forced to do military service and they go to jail if they don't want to?
Yes, as far as I know (not sure about Jail, but I believe it will result in military court hearing)

Quote:

They don't have any legal protection against being harassed and beaten up by fellow soldiers?
Not really, as it's rare.

Quote:

Whoa, some more reasons to doubt the story of Israel being the "paradigm of freedom and democracy in the region"... I mean those are absolute basics for a free society! And yeah, I agree that it's because otherwise the ones in power would soon run out of human material to fight their war(s)...
That's exactly the reason why I want to get out of this country so desperately.

Quote:

(BTW, just curious, what religion do you identify yourself with, if any at all?)
Well, my mom is a Christian (I even have a godfather, not here though). Despite that I identify myself as Atheist.

Studying abroad will not help me as I'll have to join army as soon as I get back.
Support groups cannot do anything on military level.

I've never heard of the asylum thing. Is it some kind of money award or something that helps me move to a normal country?

PS: Yeah I'm good in computers. All this time I was studying in hope that I will find a job before army and with my knowledge I'll be able to earn enough to immigrate. Guess I was wrong








Anyway, I know/study system programming (NT kernel and WDM), C, C++, ASM, VB6/NET and good "computer technician" knowledge.
I don't know if it will help anymore...

I thank you for your reply and still waiting for any other suggestions/thoughts...


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## TenFedNed (May 4, 2005)

Just found this in google...

... Israel does not recognize conscientious objection and many of the men must
serve time in prison for their refusal. This is a brief overview of the ...


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## hummingbear (Apr 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TedFedNed*
I've never heard of the asylum thing. Is it some kind of money award or something that helps me move to a normal country?

I know it seems like money is the answer. It certainly has some asnwers.
But beware of condemning yourself just because of the lack of money.
That old quote "Where there's a will there's a way." is quite useful. There is a book titled "The Long Walk" which is an extreme account about just that concept and what someone is capable of doing in dire circumstances.
If what you have been thinking of doesn't work start thinking of something different.

BTW How long until service in the military becomes obligatory?


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## TenFedNed (May 4, 2005)

I will have to join the army in about 2 years and stay there from 2 to 3 years depending on how much lucky I'll be.


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## desertpenguin (Apr 15, 2005)

What about your godfather? Is it a possibility that you could go live with him?


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## TenFedNed (May 4, 2005)

I don't know him and for many other reasons it will not be possible.


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## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

*As far as I know, at least in Europe, it's not that difficult to be allowed to stay in a country as long as you're a student.*

Well, if you come A)outside EU and B)outside any exchange program, most EU countries make you go through tests + they need you to show that you have lots of €€€€ to support yourself, so it isn't that easy unfortenately.

Mybest bet would be human rights organisations, as mentioned before people have gotten asylum/refugee status in fear of involuntery circumcision. Though I have to warn you that most human rights organisations do not take it seriously. Male circumcision is such 'a hot potato' because the religious aspect that no one wants to deal with it. If a human rights organisation took a stand against male circumcision it would cause an uproar in religious circles. Maybe ICGI could give you some advice?

http://www.icgi.org/

The only way is for you to write everywhere you can think of. I am 100% sure that you aren't the only one in this situation.

I'm still puzzled by the harassment in military though. Since you are not jewish why would they be teasing you on you being intact? Are they jealous because you have it all or why? I really don't get it.


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## TenFedNed (May 4, 2005)

Quote:

I'm still puzzled by the harassment in military though. Since you are not jewish why would they be teasing you on you being intact? Are they jealous because you have it all or why? I really don't get it.
That's exactly the problem. I'm intact which means i'm not jewish... You get the point.


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## polarbear (May 6, 2005)

I have been following this thread and there seems to be a couple of points that I still am unclear on:

A) Is this the way you feel it works...Non-Jewish man in Israeli army = physical abuse? Surely with the broad mix of Christian, Jewish and Muslim men in the country, and a mandatory service in the military, there is enough variety that an intact male might be uncommon, but not rare.

B) Is the fear real? I know it is a real concern for you, or you would not have brought the topic up. What I am asking is whether your fear actually reflects reality. One of the main arguments for circumcision in America is that 'our son will get teased or ridiculed in the locker room'. Although I am circumcised, I have never witnessed this, and many others on this site can also attest that they have never witnessed this teasing on themselves or others. I will admit that people can be cruel, and that teasing of someone who is intact does happen. I will also admit that there COULD be teasing of someone with prominent ears, or a birthmark, or is short, or who's father dresses like a teenager, or or or. I would strongly suspect though, that the locker room teasing is more myth than reality. The fear alone of that teasing is enough (absurdly) to justify the circumcision decision for many parents.

I am wondering if your fear of what-might-be is causing you stress, when reality may be completely different. Have you witnessed a non-Jewish man in an arm cast for being intact in the army? Have you personally seen anyone desert the army for the relentless abuse they took for being intact? You mention that you know people who were circumcised prior to being drafted to avoid the teasing&#8230;how many names can you give me of people who got it done after entering service?

I am not trying to talk down to you, but I am well aware of the 'I knew a guy, who knew a guy, whose uncle had to (fill in the blank)' scenarios. Again, this has been an absurd reason for parents to circumcise their sons. According to the Canadian Pediatric Society, 10 in 1000 boys will have to get circumcised later (1%), yet if I listen to all the 'My brother knows a the guy on his soccer team whose father&#8230;' stories, that figure should stand at about 50%.

Can you definitively tell me examples without giving general 'I heard&#8230;', or 'everyone knows&#8230;' statements?

I am just trying to say that not all of our fears come true. I would hate to have you worry for two years, petition Amnesty International, leave the country, go to jail, or worse be circumcised, for what turns out to be a groundless fear.

Be proud!


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Polarbear, I have little doubt his concerns are valid. Israel is a very different country and situation than would be in North America. There are many reports of men in Africa, The Middle East and The Far East being taken from their homes or chased down outside and forcibly circumcised by gangs of people. Sometimes it is with the cooperation of their families.

Asylum basically means "Safe Keeping." Generally, asylum is requested once you are in the United States. Application for asylum is made to The State Department and is usually granted on the basis that the applicant is in danger of serious bodily harm or death if he/she remains in their own country. The State Dept. considers the merits of each case to come to a decision of whether to grant asylum. The asylum is either permanent or temporary until the situation in the home country is resolved and safe return could be assured.

Frank


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## TenFedNed (May 4, 2005)

polarbear,
You requested a better example... So here it is. I talked to a brother of someone who wanted(and was) circ'ed while in the army because of the same problem (he wasn't beaten up because he was still jewish though).

Yes, there is a threat. It's very extremely rare for non-jewish intact people be in the army for various reasons (answering another question of your's).

Frankly Speaking here they didnt reach that barbaric state as some arabic countries, but it seems that it is still not good enough.

so does Asylum help me move to the USA? And how big is the chance of getting it?

EDIT: Wait, I can get it once Im in the USA? Maybe I didnt understand the point of it :S


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## OceanMomma (Nov 28, 2001)

I think if you want asylum, it would be a better idea to try some obscure country where circing is not common. I hope you find a solution as it sounds like a horrible situation.


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## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

I very highly doubt that USA would grant anykind of refugee status based on male circumcision because USA circumcise most of it's babyboys.

You would have much better luck with countries like Germany, Scandinavian countries, Netherlands etc.


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TenFedNed*
so does Asylum help me move to the USA? And how big is the chance of getting it?

Generally not. The only way I can imagine that would already happen is if you were already a refugee and needed a safe country to settle in. There are refugees from Somalia for instance who have been brought to the states for resettlement but that is not the norm. This would only be the case where there is grave and demonstrable danger.

Quote:

EDIT: Wait, I can get it once Im in the USA? Maybe I didnt understand the point of it :S
It's not guaranteed. You apply for asylum once you get here and hope you get it. There are organizations that will help with the paperwork and legalities and maybe even provide legal representation. I'm not sure what the Govt's responsibility is in this situation. If you are a citizen, the Govt. has to provide you with legal representation if you can't afford it but the rules are different if you're not a citizen.

If you are approved, you have legal status here and can not be deported unless you commit a major crime or unless the dangerous situation is resolved. Generally, once you have obtained asylum, you would be free to stay here as long as you like. However, it would be unwise to ever go back to visit Israel as that would demonstrate that the danger no longer existed. In other words, you would not be able to go back to visit your mother in Israel. You would have to visit her some where else. You could also be arrested in Israel for avoiding military service, so ever going back would not be wise.

Frank


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## TenFedNed (May 4, 2005)

If i ever manage to get out of this damned country I will *NEVER* want to go back.

Sorry for the impulsive post.


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

That's a pretty broad statement. Imagine if your mother or another family member became gravely ill, incapacitated and needed care or needed assistance in leaving the country or passed away. You would not be able to go back there to assist them or attend the funeral. Just like circumcision, this is a final decision and should not be taken lightly or impulsively. BE sure you understand all of the rammifications of the action.

Frank


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## TenFedNed (May 4, 2005)

I have considered this and I have come to conclusion that leaving this country forever is the best option.


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## wendy1221 (Feb 9, 2004)

I am wondering if perhaps your fears are a little exagerated (not your feelings, but what would actually happen). It is my understanding that most Russian JEWS who emigrated to Israel were not circumcized later, let alone uncirc'd non-Jews. I happen to be friends with a few uncirc'd (yes, I asked!) Russian Jews here in the US. I don't think you will be the only one around who is not circumcized. So why would they beat up a non-Jew who wasn't? Circumcision isn't even absolutely reqired for Jews, why would they expect a non-Jew to conform to their norm? Here are some links to pages I came across:
http://www.circlist.com/rites/israel.html

In the next one, Dr. Goldman mentions the anti-circ movement in Israel. There are a lot of Jews there who don't have their son's circ'd. Probably more than there are in the US. http://www.noharmm.org/goldmanbalt.htm

Jewish Circumcision Resource Center http://jewishcircumcision.org/
Here's the Israeli site (in Hebrew) http://www.kahal.org/

I'm a little disappointed by the stereotyping and prejudice I've found in this thread. Most of the posts have been respectful and insightful, but there have been a few that carry definite anti-Semitic messages. This site is for people of all cultures and religions, please remember that. There are probably a lot more Jews around than you realize. Even Jews who frequent this particular sub-forum.


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## wendy1221 (Feb 9, 2004)

Just out of curiousity, how is it that you write so well in perfect American English if you are from a Russian-speaking country and now live in a Hebrew-speaking country? Just wondering.


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## crazy_eights (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TenFedNed*
Yes, there is a threat. It's very extremely rare for non-jewish intact people be in the army for various reasons (answering another question of your's).

You know, I find this kind of hard to believe considering that there have been almost 1,000,000 immigrants from the FSU to Israel and there is an estimate that 50% or more are non-Jews. How this happend is a whole 'nuther story, but basically you can claim Israeli citizenship if you can prove one Jewish relative. Since as other posters have pointed out, it is hard for people from the FSU to emigrate elsewhere, Israel has become a haven for people looking for a way out of Russia, Ukraine, etc. There have been articles lamenting how many Israeli new recruits to the army how request to take their induction oath on the Christian Bible. Seeing as circ. was banned in the FSU (for religious reasons, btw - not human rights issues) you have about 1/2 a million intact men that have arrived in Israel in the past 15 year or so. Even assuming that most of the Russian Jews opted for circ once arriving in Israel (and that is far from true as well), there is still a lg. number of intact men running around.

And as for 'holding people down and circing them' - eh, nope, not in Israel. Yes, I'm Israeli (dual citizen) and it just ain't happen that way Frank. Oh - and compulsory service isn't rare for many European countries that aren't at war - including Germany, Finland and *gasp* the UKRAINE!


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## crazy_eights (Nov 22, 2001)

You can read on another thread about how the OP wound up in the situation he is in today. Shocking that he is seeking assylum elsewhere, eh?


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## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

The difference to Finland is ofcourse that a)you have the option to do civil service so you can work 'your time' in social field for example. b)army service is only 6 months anyway c)you can do your army service but refuse to take gun in your hand and so on.. - oh, don't get me wrong, I hate the forced army/civil service, no matter if it lasted 3 years or 1 day. One thing I would change in my country if I had The Power. Ofcourse it is here because of the ongoing thread of Russia.

I don't know what to think about Israel - like I said in earlier post on this thread I have never heard forced circumcisions of non-jews in jewish communities/countries. I find it indeed very hard to believe. But knowing what happens in armies in general behind closed doors(even in 'civilized countries')how can anyone of us know for 100% sure how intact men are treated in Israeli army - are they treated differently in different units etc.? And the fact remains that most intact guys do get circumcised when they get into the army *because of the pressure* - where does this pressure come from?

Parents? Friends? army buddies? officers? Where?

Also. As I come from a country were freedom of speech is very much valued I find it very strange that suddenly I should only speak sweet things about one country? And that if I say one negative opinion I am immidiatelly anti-something?

So kick me out from the board then. I think that Israel indeed violates some basic human rights of people. I feel same way about USA. And Russia. And Scandinavian countries. Romania treats gypsies horrible. Belarussia is still under dictatorship. And I don't even start with countries were Islamic laws are followed.

OK, did I now insult everybody equally? Did I forget something? Or someone?


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## crazy_eights (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kxsiven*
And the fact remains that most intact guys do get circumcised when they get into the army *because of the pressure* - where does this pressure come from?

Parents? Friends? army buddies? officers? Where?

You are relying on a 15 year old for your 'facts'? Or you have evidence from elsewhere of this 'fact'?

Armies are not nice places, agreed. The problem I have is that Israel is a priori assumed to be an aweful, human rights abusing country and it MUST BE TRUE what this kid is telling you. How many posts did it take before someone questioned what was really going on? Is this any reflection of the truth? Is it possible this kid might have other motives? How the heck did he come to be in Israel in the first place?

The truth is, he could return to the Ukraine if he wanted. There he would face compulsory military service, not to mention a much lower standard of living. Obviously this option does not appeal to our OP. Yet most other countries won't have him at this point. What a dilemma. He is not without options - just not options that he finds appealing.


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## calpurnia (Sep 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kxsiven*
The difference to Finland is ofcourse that a)you have the option to do civil service so you can work 'your time' in social field for example. b)army service is only 6 months anyway c)you can do your army service but refuse to take gun in your hand and so on.. - oh, don't get me wrong, I hate the forced army/civil service, no matter if it lasted 3 years or 1 day. One thing I would change in my country if I had The Power. Ofcourse it is here because of the ongoing thread of Russia

I don't think you have to have a gun in your hand when you do military service in Israel either. My aunt didn't, I don't think (speaking of which, her brother is intact & was in the army. Maybe he missed the penis inspections?)


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## Stardust27 (Feb 6, 2004)

Sorry, I'm a bit late answering and some things have been said already, but anyway...

Quote:

Not really, as it's rare.
This isn't a matter of how rare it is. In a constitutional state, all citizens, if they are being harassed for having a foreskin (or for *not* having one for that matter) have the right to take it to court and get compensation and/or protection against further violations. Soldiers are still citizens and thus should have that right as well - but I guess there are many countries where the military is operating in a grey zone outside of law or where due to peer pressure, forced unity and forced hardening ("don't be a sissy, don't be a telltale") such incidences simply aren't reported when they happen in a military setting.

Quote:

Well, my mom is a Christian (I even have a godfather, not here though). Despite that I identify myself as Atheist.
I was first wondering why a Christian Ukrainian family would move to Israel - but the way Mom2six explained makes sense of course. I don't think that we can accuse TenFedNed of directly taking advantage of Israel however, since he was taken there by his mother as a child. And, of course, there's a flip side to that coin as well: Israel has such generous immigration regulations because it *wants* many immigrants to make sure that is is not demographically overrun by the Muslimic part of the society (or that's what I read, sorry if I'm wrong, it is in no way meant anti-Semitic!).

Anyway, the point I wanted to make is that I think that TenFedNed does have the right to wish to emigrate, whatever his reasons may be. That doesn't mean that he has the right to be handed his new citizenship on a silver platter, of course.









Quote:

Studying abroad will not help me as I'll have to join army as soon as I get back.
Yes, but by studying you can a) win some time and b) get one foot into another country. Once you have a real good education and are considered a qualified and valuable part of society/economy, you have a better chance of getting a residence permit and work permit. Once you've lived in a country for some years, speak the language really well and learned about the culture and customs, you have a better chance of gaining citizenship. And so on.

Maybe kxsiven is right and only money will get you a place at university - but don't give up on that before you've received some country- and university-specific and first hand information.

Quote:

Support groups cannot do anything on military level.
Point taken, but maybe it could at least help gaining and spreading information about how to avoid the military/how to emigrate?

Quote:

I've never heard of the asylum thing. Is it some kind of money award or something that helps me move to a normal country?
Asylum means that a state grants a citizen of another state permanent or temporary refuge because the person is in some kind of danger in his/her home country (political, religious or ethnic persecution and the like).

On arriving in the new country, people can apply for asylum. Until their case is decided, they are in a kind of limbo and under strict restrictions (since they aren't supposed to disappear...). If asylum is granted, they are allowed to stay, work etc.; if it's denied, they are deported to their home country - and are not allowed to come back again! The terms for being granted asylum are quite strict and you have to be able to prove without a doubt that you are being persecuted/endangered. So it is quite tricky and risky, and I would advise you *NOT* to try without first getting detailed information about your chances. Israel as a democratic country is not one of the typical origins of asylumseekers, and so your case would be a particular and very uncertain case.

Personally, I think making yourself valuable to a society is the better, safer and more controllable way to go. Asylum-seekers are usually seen as a burden, and are at the mercy of the officials.

Quote:

I thank you for your reply and still waiting for any other suggestions/thoughts...
Another idea: If the UK is your country of choice, you could contact NORM-UK (www.norm-uk.org). Maybe they will be able to give you some more specific advice about immigrating into the UK. I really have no idea about their immigration regulations. You could also ask for information at a British embassy.

Somehow I get the feeling that you are waiting for the "perfect offer". Something like "Oh, I've got a big house, why don't you come over and move in and I'll adopt you as my son" (okay, that was a bit exaggerated







). That is not going to happen. If you want to leave Israel, you'll have to work hard for achieving your goal and be willing to accept some hardship.

Good luck again,
Stardust.


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## polarbear (May 6, 2005)

((I talked to a brother of someone who wanted (and was) circ'ed while in the army because of the same problem (he wasn't beaten up because he was still jewish though).))

Really? So, you talked to a guy who knows a guy who&#8230;

Please forgive my continuing skepticism, but I know a guy who said his friend's dog was eaten by the alligators in the sewers of New York City. That still doesn't make it true though.

Again, please don't take this as an attack. I am just trying to make you think, and question, the reality of your assumptions, and the possibility of needless worry.


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## TenFedNed (May 4, 2005)

Quote:

Somehow I get the feeling that you are waiting for the "perfect offer". Something like "Oh, I've got a big house, why don't you come over and move in and I'll adopt you as my son" (okay, that was a bit exaggerated ).
I am not waiting for the "perfect offer". I am trying to get everyone's' opinions/advices an chew it over to decide what to do next.

Quote:

I am wondering if perhaps your fears are a little exaggerated (not your feelings, but what would actually happen). It is my understanding that most Russian JEWS who immigrated to Israel were not circumcised later, let alone uncirc'd non-Jews. I happen to be friends with a few uncirc'd (yes, I asked!)
Perhaps I didn't explain everything correctly, and maybe some of the things that I'll add now will help you understand my situation.
See, most people who come to Israel from Russia/Ukraine are in a way "naturalizing" to the place, acting just like the people here, become the same as them. I could never be like people here for many reasons. I cannot pretend to be someone who I am not and cannot become.
Yes, I know that in most cases people like me suffer in the army. It would be hard to someone who has never been in my shoes to understand.
What I'm asking you is simply advices on how to get out of the country where I do not belong, where I feel miserable, where I'm not being liked by most others. The country that requires me to join the army, to be tossed and most likely get beaten up (most likely to happen in the basic training months) for being such different.
What I want is to gain my freedom.

Quote:

I'm a little disappointed by the stereotyping and prejudice I've found in this thread. Most of the posts have been respectful and insightful, but there have been a few that carry definite anti-Semitic messages. This site is for people of all cultures and religions, please remember that. There are probably a lot more Jews around than you realize. Even Jews who frequent this particular sub-forum.
I am sorry if you understood me wrong. I have no intension to offend neither religions nor countries. I just want to find a solution to my problem, that's all I want.

Quote:

Just out of curiosity, how is it that you write so well in perfect American English if you are from a Russian-speaking country and now live in a Hebrew-speaking country? Just wondering.
My English is far from being perfect, but yes, I was studying English the best I could for more than 3 years with the hope that someday I will be able to move to an English speaking country where I believed and still believe that i belong.

Quote:

Anyway, the point I wanted to make is that I think that TenFedNed does have the right to wish to emigrate, whatever his reasons may be. That doesn't mean that he has the right to be handed his new citizenship on a silver platter, of course.
silver platter? No. Just advice, any advice.

And yes, I've been trying to contact different groups. I haven't went through the whole list (of those I know).
I didn't get any replies yet.


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## Stardust27 (Feb 6, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TenFedNed*
I am not waiting for the "perfect offer". I am trying to get everyone's' opinions/advices an chew it over to decide what to do next.

Well, I had the impression that you dismissed or rejected most ideas that were given because they didn't provide an instant solution. But maybe it was just a naturally skeptic reaction on your side. An occasional "Thanks; good idea; I'll pursue that" in between might help alleviate that.









Seems like you've got more than enough stuff to chew over now. I hope you'll get replies soon - I know it can take an unnervingly long time until organizations and agencies react.

Stardust


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## crazy_eights (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Stardust27*
And, of course, there's a flip side to that coin as well: Israel has such generous immigration regulations because it *wants* many immigrants to make sure that is is not demographically overrun by the Muslimic part of the society (or that's what I read, sorry if I'm wrong, it is in no way meant anti-Semitic!). .

Actually, Israel's immigration policy was set after WW II and was directly influenced by the policies of Hitler (having one Jewish grandparent defined you and a 'Jew' for persecution). Therefore, in order to provide refuge for anyone who might face a similar threat, they were worded as such. There was much debate about the subject then and now, but the law still stands as it is to provide a haven for anyone that might be threatend from being decended from Jews or married to a Jew. BTW - the Soviets considered anyone with a Jewish father to be Jewish (Jewish law states only if the mother is Jewish) and those people faced persecution as well, so even in more recent history there were those who needed to use the law as it stands.


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## stafl (Jul 1, 2002)

I think some of you are being a little hard on the OP. I personally know grown men who were drafted into the US Army (during VietNam conflict), were given no choice about joining the armed forces, who chose to become circumsized rather than be beat up constantly. It's not that outrageous an idea, and I wouldn't doubt it still goes on to some extent even now, even in our very own armed forces.

anyway, my point is that it's an army thing, not an Israeli thing. I'm sure the same thing happens everywhere, no matter how someone might be different than the rest.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stafl*
I think some of you are being a little hard on the OP. I personally know grown men who were drafted into the US Army (during VietNam conflict), were given no choice about joining the armed forces, who chose to become circumsized rather than be beat up constantly. It's not that outrageous an idea, and I wouldn't doubt it still goes on to some extent even now, even in our very own armed forces.

anyway, my point is that it's an army thing, not an Israeli thing. I'm sure the same thing happens everywhere, no matter how someone might be different than the rest.


Not in the Canadian Armed Forces.

You make fun of someone/harass/assult them, you get charged. Plain and simple. there is NO tolerance for that kinda crap in the Canadian Military. Just ask my DH, who almost got formally Charged for telling a fellow recruit "I wish you were dead" Only my FIL was the one to save him from having a room at Club Ed *Our Ft. Leavenworth*

We cracked down hard on that kinda bull when the Airborne got busted for Hazing.


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## Stardust27 (Feb 6, 2004)

<off topic>

Thanks for explaining, Mom2six - I didn't know the policy dated back this long and hasn't been revised since then (where I live, there seem to be changes every other year







). It's fully understandable then, of course, but I think it should be possible to make it stricter now and check whether potential immigrants are really persecuted where they come from or whether they are just economic/social migrants. But that's for the government to decide, of course.

Thanks again.

</off topic>

Stardust


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## wendy1221 (Feb 9, 2004)

.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

:


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## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

*The problem I have is that Israel is a priori assumed to be an aweful, human rights abusing country and it MUST BE TRUE what this kid is telling you.*

Thanks for thinking that I am that 'intelligent'. Do you really think that I base my human rights opinions on some anonymous posts on the net?

I have worked for human rights organisations, I still belong to many of them and work actively to make things better.

My DW's father was intact - rare in 60's USA but anyway. He went to army in early Vietnam years and almost got forcefully circumcised, got beaten and teased. Luckily after basic training he got transfered to different place. So does this make whole US army awful. No. But it shows it can happen. I just read news that sexual harrasment cases sky rocketed in US military last year. Does that make whole military sexual abusers? No, but there is clearly a problem. Tell me how you can be 100% that no man or woman get teased or beaten up in Israel army for any reason ever? Or any other army? I sure cannot say that for Scandinavian armies.

People get teased because they are different. That law works every where, kindergardens, schools, working places and yes, in military.


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## TenFedNed (May 4, 2005)

Someone I know who is in army now told me that they are assigning me to a place in army when I'm about 16 (not too far from now :S).

I am completely depressed now. I don't think I could legally move anywhere when I'm 18 because of it.

That must change things... Any ideas?
So much of my human rights&#8230;


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## crazy_eights (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kxsiven*
Tell me how you can be 100% that no man or woman get teased or beaten up in Israel army for any reason ever? Or any other army?

Uh, I think I agreed with you that armies can be aweful places. However, it is a big jump to say 'no one is circed in the army [which we already have seen to not be true] and they will FORCE me to be [which I highly, highly doubt]" Enough crap and scandel come out of the army on a daily basis that if this were an issue, we'd hear about it. It's a small country and an 'everyman' army, so I can't say it never COULD happen, but it is not institutionalized, and I does not seem to be common.

But everyone jumped right on the 'that's right! It must be so!' bandwagon immediately. This kid has some pretty serious issues - he's an unhappy 15 year old, is in Israel due to choices his parents made thinking that things would pan out economically (all this from the OP) and makes outrageous claims about the Israeli army (which he hasn't been in, but has 'heard' things) that other posters have posted that they know of people who did not have that experience. Couple that with the fact that this child COULD return to the Ukraine (but obviously doesn't want to). Yet somehow from all of this we are supposed to condemn Israel. Color me confused.


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## crazy_eights (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TenFedNed*
Someone I know who is in army now told me that they are assigning me to a place in army when I'm about 16 (not too far from now :S).

I am completely depressed now. I don't think I could legally move anywhere when I'm 18 because of it.

That must change things... Any ideas?
So much of my human rights&#8230;

Let me explain how it works. Before you turn 18 or before your induction date, you go to the army and request that you want to visit your [grandparents, godfather, fill in the blank] back in the Ukraine. You get permission to go. You buy a round trip ticket, you leave and YOU DON'T COME BACK. This should not be a problem b/c you have already stated that once you get out, you never want to come back. People who want out of Israel do this all the time. Surely if you have been in the country for 10 years you have heard of people doing this? However, it does not solve the problem of getting out of the Ukraine.


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## TenFedNed (May 4, 2005)

I have some relatives in USA. Maybe I could "visit them back in USA"?

From your post I understand that you are familiar with those rules. Could you please give me more details/info?


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## crazy_eights (Nov 22, 2001)

You problem would be staying in the US. Once your visa expires, you would be in the US illegally. Of course, you would not be the first person with Israeli citizenship to stay on in the US without a visa. But if you get caught, you would be deported. Having worked with Jews from the FSU that have come to the US, I can say that your chances of getting assylum here are slim to none. The other problem is that once you have come to the US, it becomes more difficult to get a residency permit (green card). They often make you apply from your home country and if you are here, require you to leave. If you want to leave for the US, your best bet would be to apply for the 'green card lottery' or a student visa (you would have to get accept to a school in the US) once you have left Israel for another country where you are able to reside legally. I believe that your relatives might be able to sponsor you in your application for immigration status to the US, but again, you would probably have to be out of Israel to do it. That part I am not so familiar with, but you should be able to find out the procedure for the INS online.

I am only familiar with the procedure for getting permission to leave the country from the army having had to do it with my husband.


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## TenFedNed (May 4, 2005)

Do they actually check if I have relatives 'there'? I could say that Ill be visiting my (unexisting) relatives in UK and there, becoming a UK citizen should be a lot easier than in USA.


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## calpurnia (Sep 26, 2004)

You don't have to have a reason to visit the UK, so you wouldn't have to invent any relatives.

You have to be resident in the UK for four/five years, I forget precisely, before you can apply for citizenship. If you arrive on a shortstay visa & overstay it, you won't be able to get work - you won't have the right papers - & they will certainly not give you citizenship. You will be an illegal immigrant. When they catch you, they will deport you back to Israel.

If you want to apply for aslyum you have to do it the minute you arrive, not after your visa runs out. You have to have documentary evidence of what you are fleeing. I highly doubt they will not grant you aslyum on the grounds you have. Again, they will deport you.

If you really are interested in leaving, the easiest way of you to do so at this stage of your life is to study abroad - you can get student visas with more ease - or to return to the Ukraine.


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## TenFedNed (May 4, 2005)

Why would I need an asylum in the UK?
Just wondering but can't I just immigrate to the UK using one of their immigration programs?

Study abroad...? How am I going to do that if I know that I'll go to jail if I ever come back to israel after "skipping" army?


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## calpurnia (Sep 26, 2004)

You won't be able to just get citizenship in the UK like that. You need to be able to enter the country on a long-term visa, either through studying or work (you have to have a job lined up when you apply for this, & the company employing you has to be able to prove that you have skills they can't get from someone already in Britain), & when you have been in the UK for four years then you can apply for citizenship. There isn't a programme where you just apply for citizenship. This is Fortress Europe!

I really advise you to do some research, go to the US embassy, the UK embassy, the Ukraine embassy, & see what your options are.


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## Stardust27 (Feb 6, 2004)

I can only second what calpurnia said. Do not try to "sneak" into a country, that is bound to be exposed and backfire very painfully sooner or later. Once they deported you, you won't be let in again even for a short time stay. Play fair and try to make yourself attractive with a good education, that's your best chance IMHO.

You might want to add Australia (http://www.smca.com.au/, http://www.activescgroup.com/)
and New Zealand (http://www.auswandern-neuseeland.de/e3.htm, http://www.immigration.govt.nz/) to the list - they might be a bit more open to immigrants than overpopulated Europe.

Stardust


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## tayndrewsmama (May 25, 2004)

TenFedNed, how much have you discussed this with your mother? I don't recall much mention of talking your feelings and plans over with her. Forgive me if I am wrong though. It just sounds like what you want to do is very serious and should not be pursued without at least talking to her. I understand that she may not ultimately agree with you, but atleast then you wouldn't be doing this without her knowing. KWIM? She would atleast have the opportunity to help you if she realizes just how serious your concerns are. If she chooses not to, well then atleast you know you tried to enlist her help in the matter.


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## TenFedNed (May 4, 2005)

Was wondering... I have relatives (uncle, aunt) in Canada, could I use them in the "i want to visit my relatives and skip army" technique?


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## TenFedNed (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tayndrewsmama*
TenFedNed, how much have you discussed this with your mother? I don't recall much mention of talking your feelings and plans over with her. Forgive me if I am wrong though. It just sounds like what you want to do is very serious and should not be pursued without at least talking to her. I understand that she may not ultimately agree with you, but atleast then you wouldn't be doing this without her knowing. KWIM? She would atleast have the opportunity to help you if she realizes just how serious your concerns are. If she chooses not to, well then atleast you know you tried to enlist her help in the matter.

You were right. I've never talked to her about this except once murmuring something about me getting money to immigrate or something alike.
Despite that, I perfectly know that she herself wants to leave this country (not sure about me leaving alone, but I think it's pretty obvious that this won't stop me from leaving this country, and I believe that I do have the right. Especially when Ill be 18)


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## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

This discussion has moved from one of circumcision to one of leaving a country and moving to another. TedFedNed, can I suggest you start a thread in "Finding Your Tribe" or "Talk Amongst Ouselves" to see if you can find some members who have done what you are interested in doing? You may be able to get some information from people who have gone through the process.


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## TenFedNed (May 4, 2005)

Thank you all for your advice!!
The thread has been recreated in http://www.mothering.com/discussions...71#post3101371
for further posts please use the new thread.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *calpurnia*
I don't think you have to have a gun in your hand when you do military service in Israel either. My aunt didn't, I don't think (speaking of which, her brother is intact & was in the army. Maybe he missed the penis inspections?)

FTR the actual fact is that the "penis inspection" is to DEDUCT points from one's score if it has been operated on (circed). When the score gets too low you are rejected from service. Circumcision, "even" in the Israeli army is considered a physical defect. I think the score for a circed male starts at 90 instead of 100 but I'm not sure on the exact number right now.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TenFedNed*
Someone I know who is in army now told me that they are assigning me to a place in army when I'm about 16 (not too far from now :S).

Now, that I *know* is not true. If your score is too low when you go to your first appointment at lishkat hagiyus then they reject you. Also it takes awhile from when they accept you to when you get your placement.


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## calpurnia (Sep 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BelovedBird*
FTR the actual fact is that the "penis inspection" is to DEDUCT points from one's score if it has been operated on (circed). When the score gets too low you are rejected from service. Circumcision, "even" in the Israeli army is considered a physical defect. I think the score for a circed male starts at 90 instead of 100 but I'm not sure on the exact number right now.

I was actually joking about the idea of penis inspections


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## LookMommy! (Jun 16, 2002)

BB, I have to tell you - I think that -1 score for a circumcision is just a joke. No one male or female, gets a perfect 100.

On the other hand, I asked my dh (Israeli born, served 4 1/2 years in army, still goes to reserves, has a rank of captain I think) about the OP situation, and he felt that with all the Russian-speakers in the army these days, many of them not circumcized, it really wouldn't be a big deal. He was the only observant Jew in an all secular Jewish plattoon. He said it wasn't a big deal. (No one resented him for the things he couldn't do on Shabbat, etc.). He said the only "violence" he sees in the army today (note, there certainly could be more that he doesn't see) is maybe name calling (well I see this in every traffic jam - Israelis are hotheads) and pushing/shoving (not right, but also seen on every playground/schoolyard). Out and out harrasment can be dealt with within the army hierarchy. Yes, there is prejudice against Russian-speakers (many of whom might not have chosen to come to Israel if they had better options), but it is not institutionalized discrimination.

However, if you (the OP) want to get out of Israel, I would recommend following the advice given earlier -- go back to the FSU. Personally, I'm not so happy with the idea of someone defending my country who doesn't even want to be here. Or even better, stay here and work for the changes you would like to see happen in our society, as does MK Natan Sharansky.

I wish you luck in whatever you choose. My daughter will be in the army in 6 years, and my son in 9, and I hope they will feel proud to serve, and that the Israel they will defend will be worthy of their pride.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *calpurnia*
I was actually joking about the idea of penis inspections









They get a full physical. A perfect body, no surgery or modification gets a certain score, circumcision takes that score down. No, I don't think its a joke lookmommy. You think circ (minor surgery) does not count as surgery but arthroscopic knee surgery does. I have a dh who would have served but he wasn't allowed to- he has spina bifida.


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## LookMommy! (Jun 16, 2002)

Sorry, BB--I still think it's a "myth". At least that's what my dh says. Or else a female (no circ) could theoretically get a 100, which isn't done. I'll see if I can find someone more knowledgeable to ask. In any case, I don't think anyone would argue that the condition of one's penis is in any way relevant to one's army performance.

Also, re con. objectors-- everyone goes in the army (well, with exemptions for some Arabs -- Druze and Beduin serve--, some "ultra" observant Jews--there are many who combine army with yeshiva, and some people with physical or mental or psychiatric disabilties, oh yeah and not pregnant or married women who are released from the draft, did I forget anyone?) but obviously not everyone serves in a combat unit. So in that sense, it is more like national service, with units for education, service, band, etc.

There are also programs for combining university studies with army, working on kibbutz as a part of army, etc.

I never served because I came at age 23 and married 3 months later. My husband does reserves.

Here's to the day when Israel won't NEED an army--


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LookMommy!*
Sorry, BB--I still think it's a "myth". At least that's what my dh says. Or else a female (no circ) could theoretically get a 100, which isn't done. I'll see if I can find someone more knowledgeable to ask. In any case, I don't think anyone would argue that the condition of one's penis is in any way relevant to one's army performance.

Any surgical procedure makes one less than perfect in terms of army service. Maybe your husband's examination at lishkat hagiyus was too long ago. It is not a myth that there is a point scale and any surgical procedure and any kind of defect- physical or otherwise brings your score lower- milah included. Where is the myth?
And yes, I have known a guy in perfect shape, 18 never had surgery of any kind, no defects who was told he would have "gotten a perfect score except for the bris".

Quote:

Also, re con. objectors-- everyone goes in the army (well, with exemptions for some Arabs -- Druze and Beduin serve--, some "ultra" observant Jews--there are many who combine army with yeshiva, and some people with physical or mental or psychiatric disabilties, oh yeah and not pregnant or married women who are released from the draft, did I forget anyone?) but obviously not everyone serves in a combat unit. So in that sense, it is more like national service, with units for education, service, band, etc.

There are also programs for combining university studies with army, working on kibbutz as a part of army, etc.

I never served because I came at age 23 and married 3 months later. My husband does reserves.

Here's to the day when Israel won't NEED an army--
















Amen!


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## TenFedNed (May 4, 2005)

Hi
I haven't been on for a while, and im sorry.
I am 16 now and will probably go to "lishkat hagiyus" soon.

I was wondering if anyone knows if i could somehow convince them not to conscript me during the interview. Any suggestion will be appereciated.
Someone i know said he explained that it is not his country and he would only be waiting for the end of his service and they didn't conscript him. I don't know if i should believe him or if i should try the same.
It wouldn't be lying of course. I don't feel any connection/relation to this country. I just want to be out of here.

Please. Any comment/suggestion would be highly appreciated


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## Fi. (May 3, 2005)

I say tell them the same thing your friend did.


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## LookMommy! (Jun 16, 2002)

I feel very sad for you that you have no feelings for Israel, after all that the country has done to absorb you, grant you citizenship, subsidize your family financially (as is the right of every new immigrant from the FSU), give you a free education, etc. I am sad that Israel has failed you in teaching you Zionism and a love for your fellow Israelis.

As an immigrant myself, wife to a reserve soldier and mother of 3 future soldiers, I truly feel that you must have thwarted values not to want to give back to your country in terms of community service (I am not saying you should be in a combat unit if you do not feel inclined, but there are teaching units, social service units, etc.)

However, I can also imagine that your life experience has been different than mine, and certainly I am aware that Christians from Russian backgrounds often face discrimination from their peers in school that I would not be subject to. I wonder if you could talk to a teacher or school advisor about your issue.

There are many information sessions for parents for pre-army teens where you might be given some options. You should also look into studying abroad. Of course, going back to the FSU should not be difficult if you have maintained citizenship and have family there. I understand that if you were to run away from Israel and the army, you may not be allowed back to visit your mother, so that is a risk you should consider. I know a family in that situation, where the American born son can not re-enter Israel where his family lives, but that is the choice he has made.

It is unfortunate that you came to Israel not by choice, since I'm sure your feelings would be much different if it had been your decision. I wish you the best of luck with your choices.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

Go back to Russia or fake mental illness at the lishkat hagiyus.
Or tell them you are a former drug addict.
I don't really advise lying but it will get you out of army service....


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## Frankly Speaking (May 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LookMommy!*
I feel very sad for you that you have no feelings for Israel, after all that the country has done to absorb you, grant you citizenship, subsidize your family financially (as is the right of every new immigrant from the FSU), give you a free education, etc. I am sad that Israel has failed you in teaching you Zionism and a love for your fellow Israelis.

As an immigrant myself, wife to a reserve soldier and mother of 3 future soldiers, I truly feel that you must have thwarted values not to want to give back to your country in terms of community service (I am not saying you should be in a combat unit if you do not feel inclined, but there are teaching units, social service units, etc.)

So, you're here to lay a guilt trip on him? It was not his choice to end up in Israel. He is not Jewish. It's not his culture or his family's culture. Why should he just automatically embrace all of the Isreali culture? Israel may well have subsidized his family and given them the free education. (Does his family not pay taxes for that education?) That was his parent's choice, not his. Maybe his family owes something that they are not paying for through taxes they pay but this boy has been on a bus he did not pay for and did not want to get on. Does he have an obligation to defend or pay for the bus? NO! If he intends to stay in Israel, he should make his contribution but if not, he has no obligation. That obligation belongs to his family who made the decision and are enjoying the benefits.

Frank


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