# toy guns and guns ??



## tiafit (Oct 25, 2004)

Do you let your kids play with any type of toy guns (water ,plastic, etc..) ? If so how old ar they ? What conversations have you had with them about real guns , if any ? I have recieved a few h2o guns from distant famliy members for my 3 year old and I threw them away before he saw them. But we have had encounters at the beach or park when bigger kids have had toy guns. I let him play and get wet and that was that. But the other day he asked me about getting a gun for christmas and I said no but I did not have very good reasons to back it up. Some one said if you make a big deal out of it then he will want it more. Well I did not make a big deal about it and he forgot. But of course I have not . I do not think a 3 year old can understand what a bullet can do. He see's a gun as a tool for painting and watering . We do not have any real guns in the house nor will we ever! I do not plan on purchasing any toy guns in the near future either. But I do have two boys and I would like to hear any advice , wisdom , and comments.
Thank you

Tia wife to DH 7 years , ds 12/11/02 diego taj, ds 1/23/05 niko joseph-VBAC, sling wearing , breastfeeding , organic eating , climbing , yogini , GD, family .


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## RockStarMom (Sep 11, 2005)

I don't plan on letting my kids have toy guns of any kind. I only have a 3-month-old daughter, so I'm sure this won't be a problem I'll be facing for a long time though.


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

We do not have a problem with guns, real or toy. We have plastic water guns, my son has an air soft gun, and my step daughter shoots as a member of a competitive rifle team. Giving them information about what a gun does, safety, responsibility, etc is what is important to us.


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

I played with toy guns as a child. I knew very well the difference between pretend play and the real thing. I was a very gentle, peaceful kid. I liked to play with the guns because the idea of pretend-shooting and having someone fall over laughing was amusing ot me. The falling over laughing was what was amusing. I knew what a real gun could do, and violence disgusts me now as it did back then.

The point of my ramblings is that as long as children understand the very real difference between play and reality, I don't see toy guns as a problem.


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## OakBerry (May 24, 2005)

I let ds play with toy guns, nerf dart guns, and water guns. I don't have any in the house but there is always some house we visit that has some.
I have explained the difference between real and pretend guns and gun play to him, and will continue to do so as he gets older, in more detail.
Like Redwine, I played with guns, swords, plastic knives as a child and clearly knew the difference between pretend play and the real thing as well. I was a gentle child and am a pretty gentle adult too.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I don't know if it will ever be an issue here -- I can see differing perspectives and I can respect the *arguements* on both sides of the issue.

That having been said, my own personal experience is only with my husband. He grew up on a farm in a really rural area and they were exposed to guns all the time -- toy and real. He grew up shooting (just targets and such, not animals!) and his father has quite an extensive gun collection ...which was never locked....I know tragedies happen and I am an advocate of locking up unloaded guns! .... however, my husband is one of the most gentle, loving, non-violent people in the world and we currently don't own any guns (though he has in the past)...

Just my personal story... I haven't made a concrete decision either way though on whether I would be cool with our daughter playing with toy guns or not...


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## meowmix (Jul 14, 2005)

We have water guns in the summer, used to squirt water only and not to be used as pretend guns to kill people/animals. I have mixed feelings about guns, I don't really like the violent play I feel they would encourage but I am not neccessarily against guns in general. If my children were older and wanted to learn to shoot a real rifle (as in skeet shooting or the like) I think I would be OK with it. But not as a toy.

That being said- on a similar line, when I was young they used to sell those candy cigarettes and my sister and I used to pretend to smoke with them. We must have been under ten years old. It was fun. While I did smoke for maybe a year as an adult, it certainly wasn't because I pretended with candy cigarettes.







So I think I have mixed feelings about guns because I don't think a toy gun will turn them into killers or dull their senses towards guns and gun safety, but I do associate guns with more violent play. If they have conflict in their play I would rather they sorted it out without shooting eachother. Anyway, they still pick up sticks, etc and use them as guns and swords, who needs a toy replica?







:


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## tiffani (May 17, 2002)

Just last night I was at a homelearning group meeting, chatting away, when I heard my normally loud son shouting even louder and glanced up to see what he was yelling about. He had a gun-shaped thing pointed at a friend's 6 month old baby (who was on the mom's lap, and thankfully she's not uptight about these sorts of things, having a boy herself) shouting "put your hands up!! (and when the baby did not respond...) I said NOW!!!" Now, I honestly have no idea where he got that, as we don't watch tv and I can't think of any movies he's watched where such a scenario has happened, but most likely in play with other kids that particular activity seemed really appealing.

anyway, I told him to please not shout at the baby and not to point the gun at him, and he explained "it's not a real gun, mom" and I said, I don't like to see that kind of play with a baby, why don't you play peek-a-boo with him (his usual favorite game with this particularly loved baby) and he said "well, why don't you cover your eyes"







So I insisted that it wasn't a good game to play with the baby and I would have to take the toy if he continued and redirected him to the bedroom where all the other crazy boys were...

anyway, he's not usually a gun-kid, (swords are his preferred method of battle) and we don't make a big deal out of them, nor do we own any, but they're pretty pervasive (even in Canada!) and you can't really avoid your kid playing with them, even if you want to. He's a really sweet and gentle kid, but most 4 year old boys (and some girls) are somewhat obsessed with battle -- I figure there must be some anthropological reason behind it. I swore up and down my kids would NEVER play with guns, but experience dictates otherwise...


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## CryPixie83 (Jan 27, 2004)

At this point we are planning only to have water guns in our house. If my kids were to want to learn to use guns safely (like the above mentioned cometetive rifle shooting) we would likely approve if dc proved they were ready to act responsibly with a potentially dangerous weapon.

We also plan on having toy swords in our home, and teach the kids to use swords. DH has always had swords around, they are a great hobby of his and he knows how to use them. We will also teach honor with the swordsmanship (never strike an unarmed person, never strike someone with their back turned, if your opponent lowers his/her weapon you do the same, etc) Honestly, weapons aren't the problem, it's when they are handled carelessly, by the untrained and without honor.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

I've been avoiding the kid sized toy guns and swords but ds (4.5) is very attracted to them. Swords are more of a problem, IMO, because it's hard to keep the kids from actually hitting each other. My ds gets pretty excited and wild with that kind of play. He just doesn't have the temperament or maturity, yet. He has "shooters" on his lego spaceships and any stick can be used as a toy gun. Seeing how my ds plays, I really see the value of action figures because the kids wack the figures into each other instead of having a pretend fight that can cause real injuries. I just bought ds a playmobil toy cannon which he has been having a blast with, building towers and knocking them down. I have avoided squirt guns because I don't really want to be squirted by one. I don't think ds is quite old enough to understand when someone who has been playing, has stopped and therefore should no longer be squirted.


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## mamato3cherubs (Nov 30, 2004)

I am surprised to find this thread and see so many people who do allow some sort of toy gun play.

Our family is FULL of avid hunters, my dh and I included. We live in the Pacific northwest and it is a huge sport around here I guess you could say.
We educate our children about guns, play and real. They are not taught to be afraid of guns, only of what they can do, kwim. We have never had any problem with confusion between the 2 and I don't foresee any.

DS 1 received his first BB Gun at the age of 5 and knows that it is also a "real" gun and is to be treated with the same care and caution. Our guns are all very well locked and secure at all times when not in use, including BB and pellet guns. He is already using the rifle and shot gun and will be taking classes for hunter saftey cert in the next year or so. He is NOT violent. Not towards, people or animals, other than the hunting itself, if you want to call it that. He has never asked to use guns alone, or to show friends or any of that, he just knows the proper use and that is that.

He also still loves to play with his water guns, suction cup dart guns, ect as do our younger 2 kids.

Just sharing our situation.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

We own guns, and I grew up around guns and hunting. For that reason, we were never allowed to play with toy guns and were trained in firearm safety, training which included never pretending to shoot any living thing, even with a toy. Guns are for killing, and none of the children in our extended family were allowed to pretend to kill things.


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## charmander (Dec 30, 2003)

My DS has water guns, but mostly he prefers light sabers and swords. I am fine with that. He is not allowed to point his toy weapons at people, however.

I think that many of your DHs or DPs played with toy guns as a child. And how many of them are violent, gun-toting individuals now? Probably very, very few.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RubyWild*
We own guns, and I grew up around guns and hunting. For that reason, we were never allowed to play with toy guns and were trained in firearm safety, training which included never pretending to shoot any living thing, even with a toy. Guns are for killing, and none of the children in our extended family were allowed to pretend to kill things.









: No weapons allowed in my home. I am anti-violence and am not okay teaching my child that it is okay or funny to pretend to hurt or kill another living being.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmd*
I think that many of your DHs or DPs played with toy guns as a child. And how many of them are violent, gun-toting individuals now? Probably very, very few.

That is not the reason I will not allow weapons in my home, toy nor real. It is the very idea that it is okay to hurt or kill another human being, that I am not okay with.

Part of being anti-violence is never acting violently, that includes pretending to shoot or stab or taser. Those are violent acts, whether done in play or not.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmd*
I think that many of your DHs or DPs played with toy guns as a child. And how many of them are violent, gun-toting individuals now? Probably very, very few.

That's not my concern. My concern is that they might mistake a gun for a toy and play with it because they've already learned poor firearm safety.


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## desertpenguin (Apr 15, 2005)

When my ds is old enough, he will most likely have a toy gun (water gun, potato shooter, whatever) so long as it doesn't resemble an actual gun. I do not like those "western style pistols" that look pretty real except for the orange tab on the end, and ds will not have any like that. He will be taught the difference from the very start about the difference between play guns and fake guns. My dh and I were both raised around firearms and both knew and understood from a young age that they were not toys.


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## charmander (Dec 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RubyWild*
*We own guns, and I grew up around guns and hunting.* For that reason, we were never allowed to play with toy guns and were trained in firearm safety, training which included never pretending to shoot any living thing, even with a toy. *Guns are for killing, and none of the children in our extended family were allowed to pretend to kill things*.


(bolding mine)
But they were allowed to go out and *actually* kill things? I don't get this. To me, that is a thousand times worse that pretending...


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## bleurae (Feb 25, 2005)

I grew up in a hunting family, I learned gun safety early and often. That said I will NOT have ANY gund in my home. No water guns, bubble guns, anything. They make squirt toys that are not shaped like guns, as well as bubble things. They are fine. Guns are not something I want my son to have experience with. This country has far far too many deaths per year sue to guns, far too many involving kids, I was a high school teacher before staying home with Bliss and I have seen to much. My next door neighbor growing up accidently shot his best friend with a gun on a wall in the home that was loaded, one of thos experiences everyone hears about but thinks happens to others. The family all was well versed on gun safety as well, but I heard the shot and the screams from the horror of the family when it happened. My son can be a super hero, a firefighter, a peace warrior who flys around teaching peace, a tickle monster who "gets" people with tickles. He has an imagination and can use it for a million others things than shooting at the other guy.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmd*
(bolding mine)
But they were allowed to go out and *actually* kill things? I don't get this. To me, that is a thousand times worse that pretending...

Well, that's because you're a vegan and use absolutely no animal products whatsoever. However, my family did eat meat and not just the meat that someone else had killed in a factory.

The children in my family were not killing animals, nor were they allowed to pretend to kill people. However, I personally believe that it is better to kill an animal and eat it than it is to buy it in the store and be in denial about where it came from and the suffering involved in farming.

My main point, though, is that gun play can become dangerous. When I was a child, a neighbor knew that my dad hunted and asked all the time to see a gun. His mom would have been horrified. He was obsessed with guns, despite never having seen them. I knew where the guns and ammo were, which is quite different from how things are done in my own home (!), but I never, ever, ever would have touched a gun. I knew that I could learn with a trained adult, but that I was never to play with guns. Anyway, if your kids want to play with guns, go for it; but my Dd is going to learn gun safety, not gun play.


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## tiafit (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RedWine*
I played with toy guns as a child. I knew very well the difference between pretend play and the real thing. I was a very gentle, peaceful kid. I liked to play with the guns because the idea of pretend-shooting and having someone fall over laughing was amusing ot me. The falling over laughing was what was amusing. I knew what a real gun could do, and violence disgusts me now as it did back then.

The point of my ramblings is that as long as children understand the very real difference between play and reality, I don't see toy guns as a problem.


thank you great point w/ laughter and pretend play.


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## tiafit (Oct 25, 2004)

meowmix said:


> We have water guns in the summer, used to squirt water only and not to be used as pretend guns to kill people/animals. I have mixed feelings about guns, I don't really like the violent play I feel they would encourage but I am not neccessarily against guns in general. If my children were older and wanted to learn to shoot a real rifle (as in skeet shooting or the like) I think I would be OK with it. But not as a toy.
> 
> Yes that is it ! I think it is the violent play I was concered with . This is also about using water guns get wet etc.. never to pretend to kill someone or something . Some one mention the pratt falls of a fake death which i can also remeber as a kid doing and laughing with my sister .


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Something else I wanted to mention is that most people who own guns, if asked by a parent if there are guns in the house, will lie and say no. (According to a Universty of Michigan study in the late 90s). Chances are, your child will be in a home that has guns at some point. I just hope they know proper from improper use.


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## tiafit (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
That is not the reason I will not allow weapons in my home, toy nor real. It is the very idea that it is okay to hurt or kill another human being, that I am not okay with.

Part of being anti-violence is never acting violently, that includes pretending to shoot or stab or taser. Those are violent acts, whether done in play or not.

My DH also grew up hunting some and his father still does as I said we do not have guns and the house nor will we ever (real). Times have changed I grew up in so.cal and every boy I knew had bebe gun . These days none of our neighboor kids have one. My insticts have been to allow the boys to play w/ a h2o gun when we are in s situtaion where other kids have them . But at this point i do not plan on purchasing any toy guns of any kind. My 3 yr ds got some lego people w/ guns and they went in the trash , quick. When ds plays lego it is a vey focused and quite time seeing guns on the lego people was such a turn off.

this is all great food for thought . thank you thank you !!


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## tiafit (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RubyWild*
That's not my concern. My concern is that they might mistake a gun for a toy and play with it because they've already learned poor firearm safety.


YES !I agree.


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## tiafit (Oct 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bleurae*
I grew up in a hunting family, I learned gun safety early and often. That said I will NOT have ANY gund in my home. No water guns, bubble guns, anything. They make squirt toys that are not shaped like guns, as well as bubble things. They are fine. Guns are not something I want my son to have experience with. This country has far far too many deaths per year sue to guns, far too many involving kids, I was a high school teacher before staying home with Bliss and I have seen to much. My next door neighbor growing up accidently shot his best friend with a gun on a wall in the home that was loaded, one of thos experiences everyone hears about but thinks happens to others. The family all was well versed on gun safety as well, but I heard the shot and the screams from the horror of the family when it happened. My son can be a super hero, a firefighter, a peace warrior who flys around teaching peace, a tickle monster who "gets" people with tickles. He has an imagination and can use it for a million others things than shooting at the other guy.

Tears and Truth , I hear you and have heard so many of those stories . Why take the chance.
We have skateboard, bikes, scooters, swords, capes , the sarah's silk and zoo animals have been a fav lately . To get some energy out today we were lucky enough to be able to run on the sand with a warm wind in our faces with a bunch of great friends. Your right threr is plenty to creat. just for a laugh my ds was "SUPER UKLELE GUY " for halloween.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

My sons only 2, and it hasn't been any sort of dael yet. I definately say NO WAY when it comes to this issue. I think maybe a water gun might be okay for a teenagers stocking stuffer. But that's just so he can keep the cat off the dining room table.


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## UmmBnB (Mar 28, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RubyWild*
We own guns, and I grew up around guns and hunting. For that reason, we were never allowed to play with toy guns and were trained in firearm safety, training which included never pretending to shoot any living thing, even with a toy. Guns are for killing, and none of the children in our extended family were allowed to pretend to kill things.

Ditto. While we don't currently have any guns, both dh and I started shooting as young children. We both grew up in avid hunting families. I hunted until about puberty - the hormones made me hate the early mornings and cold weather







Ds got to handle some real guns and learn some about it this summer at sil's house...her dh is a big game hunter and all the kids hunt as well.

Bottom line at our house, and ds says this all the time, guns kill people and are never toys.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

My seven year-old nephew was pretend shooting his mom with some stupid rifle he got for Christmas, aiming it right at her head and I have to say the sight just irritated and disgusted me more than I thought it would. (HE didn't irritate me, but the fact that he had a toy gun did.) I thought people stopped buying them so much for their kids? I'm sure he'll play with them elsewhere, and I will certainly do my best to discuss safety and the difference between the real and the pretend kind, but I'll never buy them as toys. Toy guns repulse me, actually. Even squirt guns bug me a little, but I have a feeling I'll be undermined in that battle pretty quickly. They're pretty much everywhere.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

I have no problem with toy guns. Most of the kids we know that are forbibben to play with them make toy guns out of other toys/materials. I also have no problem with real guns. If dd shows an interest in competative shooting or something, we will be happy to show her responsible gun use and ownership. I HATE guns and will not touch one. It is too powerful for me and I get very emotional. However, dh is a competative shooter (and yes, a vegan too) and WAS NOT allowed to play with toy guns as a child. I was allowed to play with toy guns and have never had any interest whatsoever is touching one, although I did enjoy playing cops and robbers. Ironically, I was never ever allowed to eat candy cigarettes and have been a smoker for 14 years (I quit for New year's this year and am still going strong - yay). I really do not think there is much correlation between forbibben toys, actions, thoughts, etc and later actions, attitudes, and personal preferences. Kids do know the difference between real and pretend and I see no reason to forbid any type of play. If anything, the chance to explore something in the safety of pretend play allows kids to work out their feelings on the subject rather than have a one-track-mind attitude about getting/doing the real thing after the pretending has been forbidden.


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## jadzia's_mommy (Jun 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
That is not the reason I will not allow weapons in my home, toy nor real. It is the very idea that it is okay to hurt or kill another human being, that I am not okay with.

Part of being anti-violence is never acting violently, that includes pretending to shoot or stab or taser. Those are violent acts, whether done in play or not.

ITA with this. We were not allowed to have any toy or real guns in our home growing up, and I do not plan on having any around my children. Pretending to kill isn't fun for me, and it isn't something I want my kids to grow up with.


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## cozzensclan (Feb 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmd*
But they were allowed to go out and *actually* kill things? I don't get this. To me, that is a thousand times worse that pretending...

I think this is a common view since our society has become so removed from the true sources of our food. If you are someone who chooses to eat meat, why pretend that it "comes from the store" when you could be honest with your children? My husband and oldest son (9 years old) are both hunters. My son has been trained to safely handle his gun. We absolutely do not allow gun "play" of any sort, because it downplays the severity of what a gun really does - it kills things. Guns are not toys, they are useful tools for those of us who choose to acknowledge and select the source of the food we put in our mouths.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cozzensclan*
I think this is a common view since our society has become so removed from the true sources of our food. If you are someone who chooses to eat meat, why pretend that it "comes from the store" when you could be honest with your children? My husband and oldest son (9 years old) are both hunters. My son has been trained to safely handle his gun. We absolutely do not allow gun "play" of any sort, because it downplays the severity of what a gun really does - it kills things. Guns are not toys, they are useful tools for those of us who choose to acknowledge and select the source of the food we put in our mouths.

ITA. I guess we could get baseball bats and try and beat the moose, elk, or buffalo we eat.....not sure if it would be safe, let alone a humane way to die.

As for handguns, which are typically the most common 'toy', those were specifically made to kill human beings, not animals. Same with swords and grenades, also seen as 'toys' in the store.

There are squirt bottles that can be used to squirt water at each other, the same kind that grandma uses to water her plants. they look nothing like handguns and were specifically designed and made to squirt water. For my family, we do not squirt water at each other, as it is not a loving action.

I teach my family to think and act with love, especially when it comes to interactions between us. It is not a loving act to squirt your sister. It is a loving act to swim with your sister. It is not a loving act to hit. It is a loving act to ask for a hug or ask to hug your sister.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
I have no problem with toy guns. Most of the kids we know that are forbibben to play with them make toy guns out of other toys/materials.

I never forbid things, nor label them "bad". I do teach my childrn a way of life that is non-violent and anti-violence.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
I really do not think there is much correlation between forbibben toys, actions, thoughts, etc and later actions, attitudes, and personal preferences. Kids do know the difference between real and pretend and I see no reason to forbid any type of play. If anything, the chance to explore something in the safety of pretend play allows kids to work out their feelings on the subject rather than have a one-track-mind attitude about getting/doing the real thing after the pretending has been forbidden.

I can understand the point you are making, but I disagree. If you pretend to act violently, you are desensitizing your physical and emotional being to violence.


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## karinasusy (Jul 12, 2005)

I haven't bought any weapons (swords, guns, etc.) for my son until he was about 5 years old and we were at the circus and I let him have one of those glowing swords. I wouldn't buy him any weapons because I usually became the target for any attacks, and when he was 2 and 3 he was learning to keep his hands to himself!

Even though I didn't buy him any weapons, he still managed to fashion weapons of his own. A stick became a sword, a puzzle piece in the shape of a gun became a gun. So, even though I didn't buy him a weapon, he was still able to make one. Even without anything to use, fingers and hands can easily turn into the shape of a gun. I just taught him that his "swords" shouldn't hit anyone and reminded him that his "guns" are no contact weapons.

Historically, men were the hunter/gatherers and I think it is in little boys nature to throw things and play "fight". One weekend a couple years ago, we visited my parents cabin where they have a dart board. I swear, for two whole days, he did nothing but throw darts at that dart board. It's funny how he just instinctually just needs to throw things (honing that spear throwing skill I guess).

He's 7 now and still drawn to weapons. Is it a male thing? Probably. Is it something you can control their interest in? Probably not. Teaching safety and common sense is key.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karinasusy*
He's 7 now and still drawn to weapons. Is it a male thing? Probably. Is it something you can control their interest in? Probably not. Teaching safety and common sense is key.

I do not think it is human nature or instinct to want to hurt or kill other human beings. A baby is born smiling and wanting to love and be loved, not cause pain, hurt or kill.


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## karinasusy (Jul 12, 2005)

That's not what I said. For millennia we did kill our own food and a lot of cultures still do. This is normal and a part of human nature.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karinasusy*
For millennia we did kill our own food and a lot of cultures still do. This is normal and a part of human nature.

ITA, but it is/was a learned behavior.
It is not natural to make a gun out of paper, or make a sword, both of which are specifically designed to kill human beings, not animals.


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## charmander (Dec 30, 2003)

double post


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## charmander (Dec 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cozzensclan*
I think this is a common view since our society has become so removed from the true sources of our food. *If you are someone who chooses to eat meat, why pretend that it "comes from the store" when you could be honest with your children?* My husband and oldest son (9 years old) are both hunters. My son has been trained to safely handle his gun. We absolutely do not allow gun "play" of any sort, because it downplays the severity of what a gun really does - it kills things. Guns are not toys, they are useful tools for those of us who choose to acknowledge and select the source of the food we put in our mouths.


No need for that - our family does not eat meat. I totally agree with that sentence.


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## LadyMarmalade (May 22, 2005)

I'll just echo what MITB has said. No guns or violence in our home.

I don't live in the US, so I don't have to deal with gun-crazy culture. Nobody I know owns a gun. I've never seen one IRL. My kids have never been given a gun - although a friend came to visit and brought one with him. My kids knew they couldn't play with it (they see guns as similar to snakes or spiders - dangerous, keep away).


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## tiafit (Oct 25, 2004)

i have thought about this a lot today and I can safely say I do not want any gun or toy gun in my home . I have been around a fair share of hunters and it is more for sport/fun than a desparate need to feed the family. I do respect the fact that my FIL eats all he kills when many of his buddies do not. But the idea of saying to me ds yes G'Pa goes out for fun almost every weekend and kills animals is mind blowing excuse the pun. That is # 1 # 2 my ds loves animals and everything about them it could be devastating to him and not to mention dangerous. # 3 If my "boys " need to get there agressions out they can skate, surf , climb , run , hike , play guitar , drum , scream in the yard , you get the idea. My dad never hunted w/ his father they traveled all over lived in cuba , had many many adventures w/ out killing a bird or deer. And guess what my dad is not a gun toting nut case. I love the fact that I grew up never having the tv on w/ sports . My dad was either working , with us , or at the beach and he is very successful .





















.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

We do NOT allow toy guns. But we do have real guns. I don't want my child to every mistake a real gun for a toy. My husband is a police officer and it's very important to us that our children learn gun safety. Our 9yo dd will be taking a safety class at the gun club this summer to prepare for the hunter's saftey class a month later.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

My 7 year old and DH both have a big super soaker, they are for squirting water.


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## karinasusy (Jul 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
ITA, but it is/was a learned behavior.
It is not natural to make a gun out of paper, or make a sword, both of which are specifically designed to kill human beings, not animals.

I disagree. I don't have statistics, but I do believe that millions of children growing up playing cops and robbers, cowboys and indians, good guy bad guy, etc. are normal and natural children and that most of these children grew up neither violent nor murderers from playing these games.

I neither encouraged nor discouraged my son from finding a stick and in his imagination it became a sword, and I'm sure that at no time did he think about killing people. He is neither violent nor meanspirited, but has great empathy and a gentle and loving soul. He is natural.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karinasusy*
I disagree. I don't have statistics, but I do believe that millions of children growing up playing cops and robbers, cowboys and indians, good guy bad guy, etc. are normal and natural children and that most of these children grew up neither violent nor murderers from playing these games.

Perhaps that is why armed robberies still occur, genocide upon Native Americans is still accepted, and people tend to turn away when faced with those facts.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sharlla*
My 7 year old and DH both have a big super soaker, they are for squirting water.

Sorry, not buying that one. Squirt guns are made to squirt water, too.
I don't care what kind of gun it is, the very concept of the handgun is to kill another human being. Period.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Sorry, not buying that one. Squirt guns are made to squirt water, too.
I don't care what kind of gun it is, the very concept of the handgun is to kill another human being. Period.

Yeah, water.


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

Just want to emphasize that I don't think any of us are promoting violence in our homes. I think we are all promoting anti-violence and peace, etc., in our own very different ways. I understand that MITB and others believe that to play with toy guns is itself a violent act -- I could not disagree more. Pretend is pretend, and real is real. There is a huge difference, and I think pretend may be the best way to PREVENT real violence from occuring.

I think it's fascinating that some of us have completely opposite views on the matter, and yet we all believe we are promoting the same outcome -- peaceful kids. I think we are all teaching our kids that violence is wrong. As a mom who a) played with toy guns as a child and b) will allow toy guns in our home, I can safely say that I am not advocating violence, and that I am teaching my kids to be peaceful. Playing with toy guns does NOT advocate violence -- that's a sentiment that keeps coming up here, and I wanted to address it. Our methods differ, but we are all trying to acheive the same thing. I personally think that banning toy guns is repressive and may have the opposite effect of what you're trying to acheive. But I could be wrong. As could MITB, etc. The important thing is, we're all doing what works for our own personal belief systems and for our families.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RedWine*
Pretend is pretend, and real is real. There is a huge difference, and I think pretend may be the best way to PREVENT real violence from occuring.

Obviously, it has not worked. It is not natural, nor inherent for a child to pretend to be violent. Violence is always wrong.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RedWine*
I think it's fascinating that some of us have completely opposite views on the matter, and yet we all believe we are promoting the same outcome -- peaceful kids. I think we are all teaching our kids that violence is wrong. As a mom who a) played with toy guns as a child and b) will allow toy guns in our home, I can safely say that I am not advocating violence, and that I am teaching my kids to be peaceful. Playing with toy guns does NOT advocate violence -- that's a sentiment that keeps coming up here, and I wanted to address it.

It is not advocating violence, but desensitizing them to violence. Peaceful adults and adults who are anti-violence are not the same.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RedWine*
Our methods differ, but we are all *trying to acheive the same thing*. I personally think that banning toy guns is repressive and may have the opposite effect of what you're trying to acheive.

Cocaine and other drugs were banned in my home, none of us felt repressed, nor did we run out and try them. Pretending to be high, doesn't teach a child not to get high.
Pretending to hurt or kill, is not going to teach them not to hurt or kill.


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

MITB,

As an anthropologist, I strongly disagree with your notion of it not being "natural" for kids to "play violence." In every culture I've ever read about, kids do indeed play rough-and-tumble, dominance-type games. As do the all the other Great Apes (chimps, bonobos, gorillas, and I believe orangutans). What is the basis for your insistence that this is not natural?

Playing with toy guns does NOT, in my opinion, desensitize anyone to violence. It can't possibly...because playing with toy guns is not in itself a violent act. I know (through reading your posts) that you believe otherwise, but I believe you are incorrect.

Playing with toy guns is not really pretending to hurt or kill someone. I remember when I was playing as a child, the person falling over was not actually pretending to be dead, they were acting silly and freezing for half a second. I was smart enough -- and extremely sensitive to actual violence enough -- to understand the difference between actually pretending to kill someone and doing something that would make us both laugh and roll around on the ground.

I respect you feel strongly about this, as do I. The logic behind our thinking and choices is obviously very different.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RedWine*
MITB,

As an anthropologist, I strongly disagree with your notion of it not being "natural" for kids to "play violence." In every culture I've ever read about, kids do indeed play rough-and-tumble, dominance-type games. As do the all the other Great Apes (chimps, bonobos, gorillas, and I believe orangutans). What is the basis for your insistence that this is not natural?

You are confusing violence with aggression.
What you described above has absolutely nothing to do with violence.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RedWine*
Playing with toy guns is not really pretending to hurt or kill someone. I remember when I was playing as a child, the person falling over was *not actually pretending to be dead, they were acting silly and freezing for half a second*.

I'd rather my children pretend to save lives, travel the world, search for hidden treasure, etc.
It is the very action of pointing a gun at another and causing an action that is not from love.


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## RedWine (Sep 26, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
You are confusing violence with aggression.
What you described above has absolutely nothing to do with violence.

I respectfully, wholeheartedly disagree.

Our paradigms are fundamentally different. I don't think anything you or I write can convince the other of the opposiing viewpoint.

But I wish you peace!








Trish


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RedWine*
I respectfully, wholeheartedly disagree.

Our paradigms are fundamentally different. I don't think anything you or I write can convince the other of the opposiing viewpoint.

But I wish you peace!








Trish

Here is an excelent thread that addresses the difference between violence and aggression and power play.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...5&page=1&pp=20


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## karinasusy (Jul 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Perhaps that is why armed robberies still occur, genocide upon Native Americans is still accepted, and people tend to turn away when faced with those facts.

I don't think so. Armed robberies are committed by people who *choose* to commit them and for no other reason; they didn't do it because they played cops and robbers as a child, they didn't do it because their parents divorced when they were 3, they didn't do it because they failed grade 2, they didn't do it because someone was mean to them when they were growing up. Let's not give excuses for criminal behaviour.

It's news to me that genocide is accepted. People turn away because they *choose* to be ignorant and for no other reason.


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## tiffani (May 17, 2002)

I don't think most people "accept" genocide as much as they feel defeated and powerless to do anything about it. As much as it infuriates me that these types of things happen, I don't feel like there is much I can do to stop it from happening -- yes, we're all responsible to do our part and speak out and protest and write letters, and rage against the machine, so to speak, but really, when it comes right down to it, we're often unable to stop atrocities from happening. Doesn't mean we shouldn't keep trying, but at the same time, I'm not willing to spend every waking hour lamenting the many horrors around the globe, and I'm not quite ready for my innocent beauties to be tainted by social or political madness either.

And to make the leap from an innocent child engaged in dramatic weapon-play to armed robbery and genocide is quite a leap. I used to feel really strongly about my children NEVER playing with weapons of any kind, but I've seen many friends make a huge deal out of it and it can easily turn into an obsession. I choose not to have any weapons in our home, but if my son wants to pretend to hack up a dragon or battle fierce pirates, then that's 100% fine with me. I do encourage him to not point guns at people when he plays with them at friends houses, but really that's more my hang up than it is his -- he's blissfully oblivious to the harsh realities of guns, and I'd like to keep it that way for as long as possible. We don't know anyone who owns a gun, so I'm not worried about gun safety at this point -- we'll address that later, when the kids are old enough to play at friend's houses with less supervision.

For my kids anyway, the "battles" they engage in are an essential part of their game when they're "traveling the world, searching for hidden treasure, saving lives" and all the other magical things they do all day. I don't insist that they tailor their games to suit my needs -- it's great that some kids never need to pretend to defend themselves from bad guys/sharks/dragons etc, but being in peril is my son's absolute favorite game! I love watching him save himself (and his sister







) from a dragon with his sword or from villains with his super powers -- I think it's very empowering for kids to play those types of games. And they spend just as much time playing with dolls, pretending to be orphaned children who had to walk all the way to Canada from Antarctica (with a stop-off at the beach in Mexico







) to find their new parents (us), and countless other peaceful, nurturing games.

how do ya'll manage to write such nice, short posts?


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffani*
I used to feel really strongly about my children NEVER playing with weapons of any kind
-- he's blissfully oblivious to the harsh realities of guns, and I'd like to keep it that way for as long as possible.

Do you always let your child play with something without giving information as to what they are playing with?
My children are very well versed in why guns exist, why guns were created, and what they are used for.

Just as I do when they are playing with a pretend stethoscope.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffani*
We don't know anyone who owns a gun, so I'm not worried about gun safety at this point --

Did you happen to read the thread about the child who found a loaded gun in is backyard? Some stranger threw it back there. What if he hadn't known and pointed it at his mother and pulled the trigger? Or his sister?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffani*
-- it's great that some kids never need to pretend to defend themselves from bad guys/sharks/dragons etc, but being in peril is my son's absolute favorite game!

There are plenty of ways of defending oneself with use of violence, and especially without guns or swords or pretend grenades.
Using violence as a means of defense never teaches a child how to get to safety if they find themselves in danger. It does not promote healthy relationships with living beings.


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## tiffani (May 17, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Do you always let your child play with something without giving information as to what they are playing with?
My children are very well versed in why guns exist, why guns were created, and what they are used for..

No, I don't "always" do anything...if I feel they need the information, I give it to them -- I have explained to them that *I* don't like them pointing pretend guns at people, because in real life, real guns can seriously hurt and kill people, so it bothers me to see people pretend to hurt and kill people with guns. I don't, however, choose to get on my high-horse with them, because I *know* they would never, and will never use a real gun in real life to hurt anyone, just like they would never *really* want to use super-freeze power to freeze their dad, or use their super-shock power on me. It's pretend, and it has no bearing on real life. Yesterday my daughter told me her body doesn't produce enough milk, that's why she *needs* to use the bottle that came with her new doll to feed her the pumped breast milk she got from a friend. Being a person who nursed until she was 4.5, I know she values breastfeeding, and will nurse her own children, so I'm now, finally ok with her playing with bottles -- it's *MY* hang-up and I'm ok with it, because to her, a child with no breasts, it makes more sense to feed her baby a bottle. When she was younger, before she was as aware of the process of maturity, she nursed all her babies.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Did you happen to read the thread about the child who found a loaded gun in is backyard? Some stranger threw it back there. What if he hadn't known and pointed it at his mother and pulled the trigger? Or his sister?.

One more reason I'm so grateful to live in Vancouver, Canada...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
There are plenty of ways of defending oneself with use of violence, and especially without guns or swords or pretend grenades.
Using violence as a means of defense never teaches a child how to get to safety if they find themselves in danger. It does not promote healthy relationships with living beings.

I'm not "allowing" my kids to play pretend *violent* games to promote self-defense, I'm simply letting them use their imaginations in whatever way they choose.... The spirit in which they play is far from "violent" -- it may be uncomfortable for us adults, with all of our worldly knowledge, so see a 4 YO boy point a toy gun at a 6 mo. old baby, but it's not a violent act in his mind.

I agree with you that some kids, probably those who grow up in violent households, or those with other psychological deficiencies, are seriously damaged by being allowed to play violent video games and watch violent movies. It sickens me to see little boys playing realistically with guns, as in "I'm going to blow your f'in head off motherfu**er!" and things like that. War games, cops and robbers, etc, where people are pretending to kill each other, is disturbing to me when the play is influenced by what they've seen on COPS or in a movie, because they're imitating really disturbing acts.

However, just because you see a child playing that way, you can't assume he's going to grow up to be a criminal, or callous towards genocide, etc -- if my kids were playing that way it would sadden me and I'd be a lot more careful about their influences. I once saw a 5 or 6 YO boy tackle his little brother and then hold his fingers like a gun, point it at his head and shoot him twice, just like in some crazy police drama. Very different from children using their imagination to battle a mythical beast.

I would guess that most families here at MDC are conscientious about what their kids are exposed to -- our opinions on what is "ok" differs from family to family and even between children in the same family, but we all know our own family situations best, and know best what our children are capable of handling. I know that I don't need to explain gun safety to my kids yet, because at this age, it's not a reality in our world (we don't even have a backyard







) We don't get into "stranger danger" or "good touching vs. bad touching" discussions, because they're not really relevant in our world. I did just recently ask my kids what they would do if someone grabbed them, and we casually talked about it, but the odds are slim to nil, and I don't choose to live in fear, or have my kids live in fear. They're naturally cautious of strangers, and I'm always with them -- I don't need them to know all about child-abduction.

That seems really off-topic, but my point is that we all know our own family's situation best, and are best equipped to determine what is best for our own kids. There isn't a set of black and white rules for all of us, IMO.

Unless of course everyone wants to go by my rules, that would be ok with me


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffani*
It's pretend, and it has no bearing on real life.

All pretend play has a *very real* bearing on life. That is why it is so important to let children utilize their imagination.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffani*
I'm not "allowing" my kids to play pretend *violent* games to promote self-defense, I'm simply letting them use their imaginations in whatever way they choose....

And if it has no bearing on real life, why do you let them use their imagination?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffani*
The spirit in which they play is far from "violent" -- it may be uncomfortable for us adults, with all of our worldly knowledge, so see a 4 YO boy point a toy gun at a 6 mo. old baby, but it's not a violent act in his mind.

It sure isn't a loving act.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffani*
We don't get into "stranger danger" or "good touching vs. bad touching" discussions, because they're not really relevant in our world.

If your children can speak, then they are very relevant, as most molestations are done by close family members. I would highly recommend the book, "Protecting The Gift" by Gavin De Becker.


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## tiffani (May 17, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
All pretend play has a *very real* bearing on life. That is why it is so important to let children utilize their imagination..And if it has no bearing on real life, why do you let them use their imagination?

For kids, imaginitive play comes as naturally as breathing, so I wouldn't say I "let" them use their imagination. I'd agree that it has a "bearing" on real life, but not that it reflects how a child will grow up to *act* in real life -- it's pretend, and some of it might be realistic to them, some might be symbolic of an attitude they have about life, some might be a way for them to work out something troubling they've been exposed to or had to deal with, some might just be play for play's sake. More accurately, I should say that their imaginitive play doesn't necessarily represent who they are or their real life values.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
It sure isn't a loving act..

Nope, and I don't think it's realistic or respectful of kids to insist that they feel or act lovingly all the time. Do your kids not ever get really frustrated and angry about anything? Actually, come to think of it, it *was* a loving act, because he was trying to engage the baby in the play the bigger boys were involved with, and he does love this particular baby to pieces. It didn't *look* loving to the grown-ups, but he did it with love.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
If your children can speak, then they are very relevant, as most molestations are done by close family members. I would highly recommend the book, "Protecting The Gift" by Gavin De Becker.

Their gifts are well protected, thanks







. I've heard of that book from others who liked it, but I'm not really interested in reading a book about all the horrors that can befall my children -- I grew up being irrationally paranoid about all of that, and it's the last thing I want for my kids. We all seem to have pretty good instincts -- theirs are naturally intact and honored, mine are now (finally!) honed after years of playing the role of the polite, nice girl that was somehow imprinted on my brain... though my instincts about my children's safety have never been lacking.
When they get older and will be out in the world on their own a bit more we'll talk about staying safe, but for now it *is* irrelevant for us, and I can safely say I'm not just being naive about that.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffani*
More accurately, I should say that their imaginitive play doesn't necessarily represent who they are or their real life values.

I would strongly disagree. Imaginative play is core to their development into adults.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffani*
Nope, and I don't think it's realistic or respectful of kids to insist that they feel or act lovingly all the time. Do your kids not ever get really frustrated and angry about anything?

Of course my children get angry, frustrated, disappointed, upset, hurt, etc. They do not act in violence.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffani*
It didn't *look* loving to the grown-ups, but he did it with love.

He held a gun to a baby's head with love in his heart, soul, and mind?!?!?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffani*
I grew up being irrationally paranoid about all of that, and it's the last thing I want for my kids. We all seem to have pretty good instincts -- I'm not just being naive about that.

It is not about being paranoid, it is about how to teach your children how to be empowered enough to say No, to get to safety and get help.
I am so glad I read the bood. It saved my daughter twice. The first time, she was in Kindergarten and was sexually assaulted by another female student(*5 yrs old*) in front of the teacher! The other girl punched my dd in the stomach, then hit her on the head and shoved her hand down my dd's pants.
My dd screamed and fought. Because she had all the right 'tools', she was able to get to safety immediately. I took her to the ER, and filed a police report.

If my dd did not have the necessary tools, what might have happened? I am happy I will never know.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Since when was this a debate board


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

I really do not think there is much correlation between forbibben toys, actions, thoughts, etc and later actions, attitudes, and personal preferences. Kids do know the difference between real and pretend and I see no reason to forbid any type of play. If anything, the chance to explore something in the safety of pretend play allows kids to work out their feelings on the subject rather than have a one-track-mind attitude about getting/doing the real thing after the pretending has been forbidden.








:

To answer the original question, my ds is 5. He has several water guns, a Nerf sticky dart gun, a Nerf bow and arrow and an arsenal of toy swords and shields.


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## tiffani (May 17, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I would strongly disagree. Imaginative play is core to their development into adults..

I agree with you -- I'm saying that it doesn't mirror who they want to emulate as they grow. My son often volunteers to be the antagonist when playing with friends (Captain Hook comes to mind). In his mind, the "bad guy" always has to lose -- and he does! With a flourish!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Of course my children get angry, frustrated, disappointed, upset, hurt, etc. They do not act in violence. .

I didn't ask if they act in violence, I asked if they always act lovingly, but I don't want to get into the personal history of how our children act -- of course they don't always act lovingly, they're kids! Living up to our ideals is a lifelong journey, and I admire you for keeping your ideals at the forefront of your life. Personally, I think it's beneficial for kids to feel and act unlovingly, see how it feels, and choose for themselves how they want to be as they grow and mature. My faith in the human spirit tells me that if left to choose on their own, they'll choose the path that's modeled for them, without being coerced into stuffing their bad feelings away in favor of "nice" feelings. It can be a dangerous thing, I think, to always insist on loving words and behavior.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
He held a gun to a baby's head with love in his heart, soul, and mind?!?!? .

Yes. Well, no, not to his head, you're mixing up two different stories I told -- my son pointed a toy gun at a baby-friend from a few feet away and said "put your hands up! I said now!" and while I was schocked, because I had no idea where he learned that and had never seen him do anything like that before, I also realized then (and more now, after this conversation







) that he was just trying to play with the baby, not rob him or arrest him. I didn't need to make him feel horribly guilty about the implications of his actions, because it was an innocent act on his part. I did say "I don't like to see you pointing guns at people, because in real life, real guns can hurt people. If you're going to point the gun at people we'll have to put it away." And that was the end of it. No big deal, no lecture.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
It is not about being paranoid, it is about how to teach your children how to be empowered enough to say No, to get to safety and get help.
I am so glad I read the bood. It saved my daughter twice. The first time, she was in Kindergarten and was sexually assaulted by another female student(*5 yrs old*) in front of the teacher! The other girl punched my dd in the stomach, then hit her on the head and shoved her hand down my dd's pants.
My dd screamed and fought. Because she had all the right 'tools', she was able to get to safety immediately. I took her to the ER, and filed a police report.
If my dd did not have the necessary tools, what might have happened? I am happy I will never know.

I'm so sorry your daughter had to experience this, and it is great that she had all the right tools to deal with it. What I'm saying is that my kids (and most, I think) seem to have come hard-wired with those tools, and I don't feel the need to present every possible traumatic situation to them and rehearse what you should do if X happens. What I can do, is not insist that they ever act any way other than how they're feeling, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. I have confidence that they'd never let themselves be taken advantage of by anyone, and they certainly wouldn't keep quiet about it if anything did ever happen forcefully.

I'm not against the "gifts" book, and I think it would be really valuable for lots of people, I'm just saying I don't feel I need to add it to my reading list, for various reasons. I've chosen to be physically "with" my kids most of the time so they don't have to worry about being assaulted. I feel really lucky that I'm able to do that. When they get older, we'll talk more about staying safe, but for now, we have all the tools we need. I'm glad to hear you've gotten so much out of it, though -- I've heard from lots of others that it's a great book...I just sort of feel like I could write it, at this point in my life, I guess, so I don't need to read it


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## tiffani (May 17, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sharlla*
Since when was this a debate board









Isn't that why we're all here? Debate is a natural part of discussion...
sorry if we got a little off-topic, back to the discussion...


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## hsingmamato3 (Jun 26, 2005)

No guns or swords or weapons are allowed in our house. I just don't like them. I imagine that now that I'm having a boy we might have to deal with people wanting to give them to him.


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## afishwithabike (Jun 8, 2005)

Quote:

Do you let your kids play with any type of toy guns (water ,plastic, etc..) ? If so how old ar they ? What conversations have you had with them about real guns , if any ? I
No I don't, but they're not old enough for such things. When I was 10 I got my first BB gun. When I turned like 15 I think. I got a 22 single shot bolt action rifle. I went through hunter safety at 12. Then got my permit. I come from a family of hunters. We use it as a way to provide food for our families. Goose, Duck, Turkeys, Deer, Rabbit. Oh yeah we fish too. Did the betsie river in Northern MI for salmon this year. DH fished I hiked wearing the DC. When we were little Mom let us pretend with guns. We were NEVER allowed to point them at people (Not even fake ones). Mom would say something like. Oh look at that rabbit, or here comes a deer. We NEVER pointed anything at each other. We would go into our barn and shoot at pigeons that were getting into our chicken feed. I am sure many will think all this is nuts, but we learned how to NOT be a statistic. We would never be those DC who "Accidentally" had a gun go off. We were always taught to treat a gun as if it was loaded. How will I teach my DC? I'm not sure yet, but my Mom did a good job with us I think.


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## Maggie05 (Jun 20, 2003)

I recently read the book "Raising Cain", about raising boys in our culture. One thing the author said that eased my mind about violent play is that "pretend violence" is NOT real violence. He said that imaginative play is very important to children, and that it is natural to imagine battling dragons and playing good guy, bad guy.

He said that if you make children ahamed of their fantasy play, you make them ashamed of who they are.

How can a person say, "I don't allow my children to partake in imaginary play violence."? A parent doesn't own a child's imagination! They will continue to imagne what they want, they will just cease to share it with you.

My son watches no tv, or computer, or video games. He still wants to "kill the dragon"!


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maggie05*
I recently read the book "Raising Cain", about raising boys in our culture.

Yes, there is an entire discussion about how biased and racist his book is.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

It is frightening to me how much American society promotes violence. My culture does not promote violence.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Yes, there is an entire discussion about how biased and racist his book is.

Where? I couldn't find this discussion.


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## Maggie05 (Jun 20, 2003)

MITB, Um, thanks for totally dismissing me....

Again, I fail to see how a parent can "control" a child's imaginative play.

By telling a child what they can and cannot imagine, it becomes the parent's imaginary play, and not the child's. If we believe that imaginary play is important, why not then actually let them do it?


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maggie05*
MITB, Um, thanks for totally dismissing me....

Again, I fail to see how a parent can "control" a child's imaginative play.

By telling a child what they can and cannot imagine, it becomes the parent's imaginary play, and not the child's. If we believe that imaginary play is important, why not then actually let them do it?

I have no idea where you are getting the idea that anyone is 'controlling' their child's play or imagination.
I am raising my family to be anti-violent and non-violent. From the day they were born, they have never had a loved one promote violence, in any shape, way, or form. Nor will we start.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annakiss*
Where? I couldn't find this discussion.

You could try an advance search using my username and the word 'Cain'.


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## Maggie05 (Jun 20, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I'd rather my children pretend to save lives, travel the world, search for hidden treasure, etc.
It is the very action of pointing a gun at another and causing an action that is not from love.

Here's one place I was referring to. We would all rather our children pretend to save lives, but what would they rather pretend?

Children experience emotions other than love. Sometimes in their play, they might work through those emotions. To say they can only exhibit imaginary play that is loving minimizes their very real feelings that might be anger, frustration, sadness etc...


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maggie05*
Here's one place I was referring to. We would all rather our children pretend to save lives, but what would they rather pretend?

Children experience emotions other than love. Sometimes in their play, they might work through those emotions. To say they can only exhibit imaginary play that is loving minimizes their very real feelings that might be anger, frustration, sadness etc...

What you are suggesting is impossible and just absurd!
None of the feeling s you have listed can ever justify violence. Violence is always wrong. A person can kill a living being without violence.
You don't see violent fishing, do you?
A person can defend themselves and their people without violence.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
s for handguns, which are typically the most common 'toy', those were *specifically made to kill* human beings, not animals. Same with swords and grenades, also seen as 'toys' in the store.
For my family, we do not squirt water at each other, as it is not a loving action.

I teach my family to think and act with love, especially when it comes to interactions between us. It is not a loving act to squirt your sister. It is a loving act to swim with your sister. It is not a loving act to hit. It is a loving act to ask for a hug or ask to hug your sister.

Maggie05-just in case you missed this post.


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## Maggie05 (Jun 20, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Part of being anti-violence is never acting violently, that includes pretending to shoot or stab or taser. Those are violent acts, whether done in play or not.

I don't agree that pretend violence is violence. That's just my opinion, but it seems to me that it is playing. My son frequently goes on a quest to fight a dragon, or monster, he may even stab it with a stick. It is an imaginary game, and I would never step in to tell him that he can't imagine this. It is his imagination to use as he wishes.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maggie05*
I don't agree that pretend violence is violence. That's just my opinion, but it seems to me that it is playing. My son frequently goes on a quest to fight a dragon, or monster, he may even stab it with a stick. It is an imaginary game, and I would never step in to tell him that he can't imagine this. It is his imagination to use as he wishes.

You are right. If my children start to play violently, I will stop it. Violence is wrong in any form. There is no *need* for violence. There is no drive nor want for violence. Why promote it? I have and will continue to promote love, kindness, and empowering my children.


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## Maggie05 (Jun 20, 2003)

MamaInTheBoonies said:


> What you are suggesting is impossible and just absurd!
> 
> I don't understand what you are saying here. What is impossible and absurd?
> 
> ...


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## Maggie05 (Jun 20, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Maggie05-just in case you missed this post.

I didn't miss any thing, thanks.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maggie05*
Again, I fail to see how a parent can "control" a child's imaginative play.

Good, because it is impossible to control a child's imagination, and I would guess it would cause a lot of damage to even try.


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## swebster (Dec 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
A person can kill a living being without violence.
You don't see violent fishing, do you?

I agree with a lot of what you are saying MITB, but these statements are hard to fathom. Have you ever fished? It involves putting a sharp hook though an animals mouth and then yanking them out of their environment by that hook. um...and then you cut them open with a knife and remove all of their intestines. Believing that animals were put here on earth to serve humans is one thing, but believing that the violence involved in killing them doesn't count strikes me as absurd. I know this is not a vegan/omnivore debate, but as a mama who takes a stand against ALL violence, I felt I had to chime in.

ETA: Ok I'm just jumping in here, and haven't read all the posts....my little one is not quite ready for weapons (although those pesky fingernails have done serious damage







) I have nephews that are big into toy guns and so forth. When visiting, I get alot of them pointed at me, usually with an "I'm shooting you so you're dead", or "I'm killing you now". It makes me uncomfortable to say the least, but my response is usually pretty simple. "I don't like guns, because they hurt people. If you want to play with me you'll have to put the gun away". I'm surprised how well this works.
When I ran a daycare, many years ago I also had a strict 'no gun' policy. When parents or children brought them or turned the legos/blocks/bananas into them, I would stick to my above statement, letting them know that I did not like them and when I was around I didn't want to see them. I made it personal....about me and my feelings because I didn't want to shame the children or pass judgement on their parents.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swebster*
I agree with a lot of what you are saying MITB, but these statements are hard to fathom. Have you ever fished? It involves putting a sharp hook though an animals mouth and then yanking them out of their environment by that hook. um...and then you cut them open with a knife and remove all of their intestines. Believing that animals were put here on earth to serve humans is one thing, but believing that the violence involved in killing them doesn't count strikes me as absurd. I know this is not a vegan/omnivore debate, but as a mama who takes a stand against ALL violence, I felt I had to chime in.

Yes, I have been fishing and hunting since I could walk. I spent my first years on the reservation, the only way to survive was to hunt, fish, and trap.
Violence is an action of choice.


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## swebster (Dec 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Violence is an action of choice.

Thank you MITB for clarifying.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
You could try an advance search using my username and the word 'Cain'.

I did. I only found this thread that matched that. I've heard nothing but positive things about _Raising Cain_. My understanding is that it helps parents to know how to help boys be emotionally whole. I've heard of no encouragement of violence.

I also must add that my son picked up a stick and brandished it as a weapon long before encountering any sword fighting. I really believe it's human. That whole tool thing in evolution (including tomahawks, arrows, spears, atlatls). He'd seen me use other tools like spoons, spatulas, pencils, baseball bats, and walking sticks. The stick quickly became something to hit things with, whether it was the dirt or bugs. My son naturally had the urge to stomp on ants, which did not thrill me and I tried to explain death and hurting, but he is sooooo tactile and energetic and aggressive that I've had to wait until he was older and better able to understand the consequences of killing and hurting in order to see much self-control on his part.

Michael Guarian in his book, _The Wonder of Boys_, also talks about natural aggression (yes, I understand the difference between aggression and violence). There is a great letter to the editor in one of the more recent issues of Mothering that points out that playing violent video games is not in fact listed as a risk-factor for violence committed by children and teenagers by the FBI. My husband plays horrendously violent video games and has since he was a child and yet he's a pacifist. I don't allow my son to witness these games and I don't have swords or guns or toy versions of these in my house and generally discourage violent play, but I don't try to stamp it out. I try to negotiate and understand what my son needs and is trying to explore.

I think that we are a part of this culture in this time and to shelter my children completely from the violence in media or the violence in the world would be an exercise in futility. I am not interested in preventing my children's exploration of their world to uphold my values at all costs. Nor am I interested in changing their perceptions of their world or their processes in order to preserve the sanctity of whatever aspirations I may have for them. They are not put on this earth as an affirmation of my brilliant parenting, nor can I ensure their safety or well-being by taking every known precaution. Life is much messier than that. We negotiate our way through every day. And every day is mostly a struggle, even with the best of resources.

No, I don't want my children to grow up violent. No, I'm not going to encourage violence, but neither am I going to disallow an imaginary violent act in order to maintain my own prescription for well-adjusted, pacifistic children - something which I have no absolute proof of and no method of drawing absolute or even nearing absolute correlations for. I cannot predict the outcome of all the neurological transmissions my children can muster, not even just the violent or aggressive ones. It just becomes self-righteous psycho-babble to suggest otherwise.


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## tiffani (May 17, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annakiss*
I really believe it's human. That whole tool thing in evolution (including tomahawks, arrows, spears, atlatls). .

....and guns, sadly. I think kids who are interested in playing with these various tools (guns, swords, grenades, etc) are tapped into our primal quest for survival, and they'll use whatever tools necessary to do so. They do need our guidance in these matters -- help in choosing the best tool for the job (including pacifism, civil disobedience, and, yes, violence, if absolutely necessary) and to a small child, these tools don't carry any more moral weight than any other tool. To make them feel guilty or wrong for liking them in pretend play, as a child, is awful. That said, we still don't have them in our home, but I don't prohibit them playing with them when they come across them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annakiss*
I am not interested in preventing my children's exploration of their world to uphold my values at all costs. Nor am I interested in changing their perceptions of their world or their processes in order to preserve the sanctity of whatever aspirations I may have for them. They are not put on this earth as an affirmation of my brilliant parenting.

Thanks, I'm going to borrow that...









Quote:


Originally Posted by *annakiss*
No, I don't want my children to grow up violent. No, I'm not going to encourage violence, but neither am I going to disallow an imaginary violent act in order to maintain my own prescription for well-adjusted, pacifistic children - something which I have no absolute proof of and no method of drawing absolute or even nearing absolute correlations for. I cannot predict the outcome of all the neurological transmissions my children can muster, not even just the violent or aggressive ones. It just becomes self-righteous psycho-babble to suggest otherwise.

I agree -- it's a huge oversimplification of the problem of violence in America to say it comes from kids playing with toy guns. I won't even begin to get into the deeper roots of the issue, as I'm sure we're all well aware, but my children pretending to battle various bad guys, in whatever way they see fit, doesn't in any way go against our family's peaceful nature.


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## tiffani (May 17, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maggie05*
Children experience emotions other than love. Sometimes in their play, they might work through those emotions. To say they can only exhibit imaginary play that is loving minimizes their very real feelings that might be anger, frustration, sadness etc...


Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
What you are suggesting is impossible and just absurd!
None of the feeling s you have listed can ever justify violence. .

MITB, you're twisting maggie05's words -- she didn't say anything about violence in her post, all she said was that children experience feelings other than LOVE, and don't always feel lovingly, and that's perfectly ok. I said something similar and you did the same thing. It's hard to always get people's meanings exactly correct when we're reading and posting amidst parenting, but let's try not to put words into each other's mouths...fingers...whatever









Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Violence is always wrong. A person can kill a living being without violence.
You don't see violent fishing, do you?
A person can defend themselves and their people without violence.

Yes, a person can kill a fish, or another animal, with nothing in their head but "FOOD = SURVIVAL" and great respect for mother nature and whatever spirituality they want to use to justify killing a living being, but what does the animal experience? Personally, I think it's fine to kill animals for food when necessary, (not the way the current food industry does it, but that's a whole different topic) but you're rationalizing here in saying it's not an act of violence. To the animal, it's a very violent act, and there's no way to get around that. Self-defense can be a VERY violent act -- I'm thinking of all kinds of situations to describe, but I think it's pretty obvious.

You seem to want to draw a very indelible line between violence (never ok) and aggression, self-defense, hunting/fishing/trapping, but I think the line is blurry. Saying violence is an act of choice doesn't clarify things at all, for me, because people often choose violence when it *seems to them* that they have no other option. To me, this includes some who commit heinous crimes because *they* *feel* they have no other choice. I'm not condoning this, just saying that it's not as black and white as you'd like it to be, and sometimes violence is justified, as a last resort, IMO. But I'm assuming that you'd call justified violence "self-defense" or "hunting".

I guess in a nutshell, I'm saying it's easy to rationalize to allow for our own experiences and preferences and to discount the experiences of others if they don't meet our standards, even if we've never been in the other person's shoes.


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## Maggie05 (Jun 20, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annakiss*
I don't allow my son to witness these games and I don't have swords or guns or toy versions of these in my house and generally discourage violent play, but I don't try to stamp it out. I try to negotiate and understand what my son needs and is trying to explore...

I am not interested in preventing my children's exploration of their world to uphold my values at all costs. Nor am I interested in changing their perceptions of their world or their processes in order to preserve the sanctity of whatever aspirations I may have for them. They are not put on this earth as an affirmation of my brilliant parenting, nor can I ensure their safety or well-being by taking every known precaution. Life is much messier than that. We negotiate our way through every day. And every day is mostly a struggle, even with the best of resources...

No, I don't want my children to grow up violent. No, I'm not going to encourage violence, but neither am I going to disallow an imaginary violent act in order to maintain my own prescription for well-adjusted, pacifistic children - something which I have no absolute proof of and no method of drawing absolute or even nearing absolute correlations for. I cannot predict the outcome of all the neurological transmissions my children can muster, not even just the violent or aggressive ones. It just becomes self-righteous psycho-babble to suggest otherwise.

I totally 100% agree with this. You saved me a ton of typing!









Thanks, tiffani for making that point, too.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Think about this then: How many non-violent cultures created a tool specifically for killing other human beings??????

My culture does not promote nor teach violence. Before the white man, we never went to war and killed each other. We played croquet to settle disputes.

Hey, if you kill someone in self-defense, sometimes that's what it takes. That does not mean that you are acting violently.

[QUOTEtiffani]MITB, you're twisting maggie05's words[/QUOTE]No. You are quoting an entirely different quote of hers, not the one I was referring to.

Quote:

I am not interested in preventing my children's exploration of their world to uphold my values *at all costs*.
So, you are perfectly fine if your adult children kill my adult children?

I am not okay with my children ever hurting your children, and definitely not killing them.

WHAT COST????? What exactly are we losing by being anti-violence and non-violent?!?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annakiss*
something which I have no absolute proof of and no method of drawing absolute or even nearing absolute correlations for.

Again, I suggest you research the history of guns, swords, and grenades, then research Ghandi and Mother Theresa. Do some research on current non-violent tribes, before you even say there is no proof. Please.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Think about this then: How many non-violent cultures created a tool specifically for killing other human beings??????

I'd say most. If not for killing humans specifically, then first for killing animals and second for killing humans, just like guns.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
My culture does not promote nor teach violence. Before the white man, we never went to war and killed each other. We played croquet to settle disputes.

Never heard that. I'm Apache. We're warriors. We kill other humans when at war.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Hey, if you kill someone in self-defense, sometimes that's what it takes. That does not mean that you are acting violently.

Actually, according to this definition, there's no division between self-defense or otherwise. It's all violent. http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=violence

Quote:

# S:  violence, force (an act of aggression (as one against a person who resists)) "he may accomplish by craft in the long run what he cannot do by force and violence in the short one"
# S:  ferocity, fierceness, furiousness, fury, vehemence, violence, wildness (the property of being wild or turbulent) "the storm's violence"
# S:  violence (a turbulent state resulting in injuries and destruction etc.)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
So, you are perfectly fine if your adult children kill my adult children?

I am not okay with my children ever hurting your children, and definitely not killing them.

WHAT COST????? What exactly are we losing by being anti-violence and non-violent?!?

You're completely misunderstanding me, as I suspected you might. I just said I wasn't willing to stamp out their play because they pretend to kill something. I never said I accepted violence. I'm trying to explain to you that the two (violent play and violent behavior) are not inherently interwoven. You're missing that point entirely and not backing up your claims. You're merely casting suspicion on me for saying I allow sometimes violent play and suggesting that means I will allow my adult children to kill actual people. Think for a minute, I beg you.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Again, I suggest you research the history of guns, swords, and grenades, then research Ghandi and Mother Theresa. Do some research on current non-violent tribes, before you even say there is no proof. Please.

I was saying you have no proof of whether exposure to pretend violence or even pretend violent ideas resulted in violent behavior. In fact, I think throughout human history most people have been exposed to violence of some sort. I saw a guy get beat to a pulp outside of school one day when I was 15. I once went to another guy's house where there was a gun lying on a coffee table for no reason at all. My father owned a gun. My grandfather owned many guns. Still non-violent. Same with my husband. I used to play war and cops and robbers and cowboys. I have in play aimed a play gun at another person's head, at my own head even. Still pacifistic. I took karate and tai chi and was taught how to rip a person's eyeball out. Still, I maintain that I am disgusted by real, actual in-your-face violence. I have played many a shoot-'em-up game, Soul Caliber, Tekkan, etc. and still I am anti-war, pacifistic, follower of Noam Chomsky and other anarchist thinkers and presume that the best course for humanity is a non-violent approach. My family, despite the guns, despite my grandfather's hunting and despite all four of my grandfathers' involvements in wars were huge anti-war protestors and organizers and have passed that down to their children. I am saying that despite the media and despite the television and the video games and squirt guns and squashing and disecting bugs that one can still believe in non-violent civil disobedience and Ghandi and the whole shebang. Violence comes from violence. If you witnessed hitting as a solution to problems as a child, then you are more likely to believe as an adult that hitting is a viable solution to problems. I am saying that you cannot predict that one incident or even several incidents wherein a child pretends to slay a dragon or kill a germ with a weapon of any sort will result through neural transmissions in an adult proclivity toward violent behavior. It is the repetition that results in patterns in the brain and yet there are other things that can outweigh even that. There is choice in the matter. There are other things occurring when we choose to hurt another human or an animal than simply the disconnect between hurting and gunplay. Humans are much much much more complex than you are letting on and they will always have choice. That whole free will thing ordained by God or whoever.


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## tiffani (May 17, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
No. You are quoting an entirely different quote of hers, not the one I was referring to. .

Actually, I quoted the same quote of hers that you quoted and responded to, but I'm not here to quibble...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
So, you are perfectly fine if your adult children kill my adult children?.

Uh...I don't know you at all, MITB, and I don't know your history, but you seem to be here looking to pick fights -- what on earth led you to this conclusion?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
WHAT COST????? What exactly are we losing by being anti-violence and non-violent?!?

We're all anti-violence and non-violent here, MITB, we're just not all self-righteous enough to suggest that OUR way is the ONLY way to be anti-violent and non-violent.

Thanks to those of you who have engaged in thoughtful discussion here, my mind is more at ease.
See ya'll around the boards!


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annakiss*
Never heard that. I'm Apache. We're warriors. We kill other humans when at war.









: If you was a real sister, there's no way you'ld call yourself Apache. Sheesh. I *am* Dine. My father's side of the family all lives or lived in the pueblos.
I spent every summer with them after I turned 5. Please don't insult us.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*







: If you was a real sister, there's no way you'ld call yourself Apache. Sheesh. I *am* Dine. My father's side of the family all lives or lived in the pueblos.
I spent every summer with them after I turned 5. Please don't insult us.

Excuse me. I didn't think devolving into personal attacks was quite necessary. I suppose I should have clarified that I am descended from Apaches. My grandfather was half Apache, half Mexican. We just call that Mexican mostly though. All I was trying to point out is that despite your boasts, Native Americans have not got the monopoly on non-violence, nor do they even come close to being so. I'm not trying to be more NA than you. I don't even come close. I'm just pointing out that it's a gross misrepresentation of history to claim that NAs are somehow non-violent. And keep in mind, im Apache, not Navajo--we havent been that close since the Spanish were telling us what to do. You might have to go back to the Anasazi to find such kinship. Of course, then, you might also have to mention the internecene warfare that resulted due to elite monopolization of resources and overextension of a civilization, all, I might add, hundreds of years before Columbus bothered to worry about the Chinese spice trade and brought the "white man's" notions of violence and environmental exploitation.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

No where did I boast about having a monopoly on non-violence. Please.
I wrote MY culture. MY culture is not called "Native American". There is *no such thing* as Native American culture.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annakiss*
Excuse me. I didn't think devolving into personal attacks was quite necessary. I suppose I should have clarified that I am descended from Apaches. My grandfather was half Apache, half Mexican. We just call that Mexican mostly though. All I was trying to point out is that despite your boasts, Native Americans have not got the monopoly on non-violence, nor do they even come close to being so. I'm not trying to be more NA than you. I don't even come close. I'm just pointing out that it's a gross misrepresentation of history to claim that NAs are somehow non-violent. And keep in mind, im Apache, not Navajo--we havent been that close since the Spanish were telling us what to do. You might have to go back to the Anasazi to find such kinship. Of course, then, you might also have to mention the internecene warfare that resulted due to elite monopolization of resources and overextension of a civilization, all, I might add, hundreds of years before Columbus bothered to worry about the Chinese spice trade and brought the "white man's" notions of violence and environmental exploitation.

Is any of this stuff you write ever been told to you in your native tongue? Just because a white man writes a book, does not make it fact. I suggest you actually meet the ppl and ask them their own history.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

ok. You know, I have tales of virgin births, giants walking the earth, men in beards living to the age of 900, and corn stalks seducing young men in my native tongue. Language deternines very little in history--content, however, has a large role. And so, when the "white man" (with many native scholars, no matter if you would call them "turncoats") shows my ignorant self through such discrimatory tactics as carbon dating and pack rat middens that Chaco Canyon, in fact, exhausted its supply of wood...well silly brainwashed me tends to accept such things.


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## aprons_and_acorns (Sep 28, 2004)

MITB I am really enjoying your input in this discussion. As the mother of a son, I am aware that my family comes from a cultural heritage where even genocide is seen as a justifiable means to an end.

I am open to the idea that nonviolence is possible. It is inspiring to me to hear from you and to learn a little about your culture. I just wanted to pipe in that I am listening to you with an open mind and a hopeful heart.


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## Maggie05 (Jun 20, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*

No. You are quoting an entirely different quote of hers, not the one I was referring to.

So, you are perfectly fine if your adult children kill my adult children?

I am not okay with my children ever hurting your children, and definitely not killing them.

WHAT COST????? What exactly are we losing by being anti-violence and non-violent?!?


1. If you look back, she quoted correctly.

2. How in the world did you get that ANYONE was "perfectly fine" if their adult children kill someone else?????? That is absolutely a misinterpretation and a twisting of words, and I would like to see you quote ANYTHING in this entire thread that even implies such an atrocity. I can't even express my shock that you would say such a thing.

3. Anakiss was saying that she allows some imaginary aggressive, play from her son even though she does not want him to really act in a violent way because the COST would be a stifling of his imigination. (feel free to correct me if I am wrong, AK)

MITB, I can appreciate that you wish to raise your kids in a nonviolent way. I think the rest of us are saying we wish to do that too, but feel that allowing some imaginary aggressive play that is sometimes non loving is ok in our households. You can obviously disagree, but you are coming across as condeming of those who have thoughtfully chosen to parent differently.

Plus you have insulted a few us in your zealousness.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rowdypea*
MITB I am really enjoying your input in this discussion. As the mother of a son, I am aware that my family comes from *a cultural heritage where even genocide is seen as a justifiable means to an end.*
I am open to the idea that nonviolence is possible. It is inspiring to me to hear from you and to learn a little about your culture. I just wanted to pipe in that I am listening to you with an open mind and a hopeful heart.

Thank you! I agree that the first step is realizing what our different cultures/society 'teaches' us.
Yes, my children have never been raised on the reservation, so, they are being raised in the 'typical' American society, and it is hard. My children have been awesome advocates for their physically disabled peers in their schools. They have also been central to mediating and creating a 'bully-free' school atmosphere.
Yes, they have, unfortunately, witnessed violence. Not only do their beings reject it, but fight to heal and create balance in their lives.

The most difficult for them is dealing with the fact that they live in a violent world. They do not understand why people would even want to hurt each other. Rather than shut down, though, my children independantly have strived to make change.........and they have succeeded.

The Circle newspaper is no longer on-line, but if people have it in their area, my 9 yo's have been in there quite a bit last year for the changes they have brought about in their schools and community.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maggie05*
2. How in the world did you get that ANYONE was "perfectly fine" if their adult children kill someone else?????? That is absolutely a misinterpretation and a twisting of words, and I would like to see you quote ANYTHING in this entire thread that even implies such an atrocity. I can't even express my shock that you would say such a thing.

It goes back to the use of guns, swords, and weapons that were designed wit the sole intention of killing other human beings. You do understand that children are intelligent human beings, right?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maggie05*
3. Anakiss was saying that she allows some imaginary aggressive, play from her son even though she does not want him to really act in a violent way because the COST would be a stifling of his imigination. (feel free to correct me if I am wrong, AK)

I have no problem with aggressive play, power play, etc. I will *not* allow violent play in my home.
*It is stifling to allow children to pretend to hurt, kill, and/or cause pain.*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maggie05*
MITB, I can appreciate that you wish to raise your kids in a nonviolent way. I think the rest of us are saying we wish to do that too, but feel that allowing some imaginary aggressive play that is sometimes non loving is ok in our households.

Good, because aggressive play is important. Violence is always wrong.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maggie05*
You can obviously disagree, but you are coming across as condeming of those who have thoughtfully chosen to parent differently.

Plus you have insulted a few us in your zealousness.

You feel insulted because I refuse to allow violence to be swept under the rug? You forget that my children are growing up with yours. If your children grow up fine with the idea of killing/hurting other human beings, you are putting my children's life at stake.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annakiss*
And so, when the "white man" (with many native scholars, no matter if you would call them "turncoats") shows my ignorant self through such discrimatory tactics as carbon dating and pack rat middens that Chaco Canyon, in fact, exhausted its supply of wood...well silly brainwashed me tends to accept such things.

Did it ever occur to you , that we are still alive and know our written and oral language?

Chaco canyon was more like a church, in that ppl traveled from around the continents to worship and be healed.
pssst: they still do the ceremonies.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
You feel insulted because I refuse to allow violence to be swept under the rug? You forget that my children are growing up with yours. If your children grow up fine with the idea of killing/hurting other human beings, you are putting my children's life at stake.

My son has had a toy sword in his hand almost from the time he could walk. He _loves_ swords. He also loves snowball fights and squirt guns. He's one of the kindest, gentlest boys in his class and doesn't use violence to deal with his problems. You're going way over the top with the idea that letting him play with a toy sword is putting anybody's life at stake, and you've never once backed up that assertion.

I've also seen you post about teaching your children to feel powerful through saving lives, helping others, etc. Quite frankly, that turns my stomach. I've had three unwanted cesarean sections...maybe, just maybe, if my OB's didn't feel "powerful" when they "save" a mom and baby, they wouldn't have cut me open. Does that make you wrong to teach what you teach your children? No - but it doesn't make me wrong to allow my son to play with a toy sword, either.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maggie05*
3. Anakiss was saying that she allows some imaginary aggressive, play from her son even though she does not want him to really act in a violent way because the COST would be a stifling of his imigination. (feel free to correct me if I am wrong, AK)

This is exactly what I was saying.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Good, because aggressive play is important. Violence is always wrong.

You have missed where I have pointed out that though you may define violence a certain way and not include the hunting of animals or self-defense as violent, many people still do include that as violence along with other aggressive acts that though troublesome, are still not worth disallowing (I take a non-punitive approach to parenting). I do not disallow the squashing of bugs, for instance, though I consider it to be quite violent. I don't disallow sometimes violent play either (wherein a weapon is created from something and used to inflict imaginary hurt) but I do use it as a teachable moment to discuss what is happening and what the causes and effects of such actions would be, as well as my own personal dissatisfaction with such behaviors. But I believe that children know the difference between real and pretend quite well. I don't feel the need to do any stifling in order to achieve mere compliance. I do not believe that play violence is the same thing as real violence. I see it as something else. I've tried to explain that and you have remained hard-lined and adament that this approach is a danger to your children. I find this assinine. I don't suppose there's really any more to say though that I haven't said over and over and you have replied with the same hard-line, ignoring my explanations. So I suppose it's really not worth it.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Did it ever occur to you , that we are still alive and know our written and oral language?

Chaco canyon was more like a church, in that ppl traveled from around the continents to worship and be healed.
pssst: they still do the ceremonies.

ok.


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## Maggie05 (Jun 20, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
You feel insulted because I refuse to allow violence to be swept under the rug? You forget that my children are growing up with yours. If your children grow up fine with the idea of killing/hurting other human beings, you are putting my children's life at stake.

No, I am insulted by your implication that my child is destined to grow up to kill someone else.

I am also insulted by the fact that you continue to twist my words, and read that which you wish to read.

I respect your right to raise your children in your own way, a way that seems very moral and upright to me, but to continue to imply that my sweet son will grow up to murder your son because he battles dragons and monters in his imaginary play IS insulting. I am sure you will now twist this post as well...have at it.


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## Maggie05 (Jun 20, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annakiss*
I do not believe that play violence is the same thing as real violence. I see it as something else. I've tried to explain that and you have remained hard-lined and adament that this approach is a danger to your children. I find this assinine. I don't suppose there's really any more to say though that I haven't said over and over and you have replied with the same hard-line, ignoring my explanations. So I suppose it's really not worth it.

That sums it for me as well.

This debate has helped me to clarify my stance. I will continue to disallow toy weapons, guns and swords, but if my son wishes to create such things in his imagination, I think I will allow that.

Thanks for the oppotunity to work through that!


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## tiffani (May 17, 2002)

Ok, thought I could hang tight on this one, but it's hard for me to sit by and listen to close-minded self-righteousness...

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Good, because aggressive play is important. Violence is always wrong..

Maybe it would be helpful if you'd give a few examples of what you mean by this, because spewing the same dogmatic line over and over doesn't increase anyone's understanding of your point of view.
You mention things like "squirting water at your sister isn't a loving act" as if it's LAW, but I totally disagree -- if both kids are having fun, it IS a loving act. If a child screams "DIE BITCH!!" while squirting the water, then no, not very loving, and I'd guess that child has been subjected to really innapropriate experiences. Is that ok play? Not in my mind, but does it mean he'll grow up to shoot women in real life? Absolutely not.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
You feel insulted because I refuse to allow violence to be swept under the rug? You forget that my children are growing up with yours. If your children grow up fine with the idea of killing/hurting other human beings, you are putting my children's life at stake.

Nobody here is allowing violence to be swept under the rug, we're just not in agreement with you about how to raise happy, healthy, emotionally whole, non-violent adults. I'm not going to sacrifice my children's ability to feel in control of their own lives and actions, or their ability to make sense of their own feelings and find the best way to express them, to satisfy my own ego.

Whether I allow them to slay dragons or not, they'll grow up to be non-violent individuals -- personally, I think slaying dragons is a wonderful metaphor for all of life's challenges -- they aren't using violence to solve problems in real life, but neither are they victims.

You would do well do be a lot less condescending and a little more open-minded to the notion that maybe you don't have the ideal prescription for everyone's families. Our children are not growing up with the idea that it's fine to kill or hurt other human beings -- they know the difference between play and real life. Rest assured, we're all here with the same goal, and it's wonderful to see the many paths that will bring us all there in the end.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

You continue to insult families who have made the conscious decision to raise our children to be anti-violence and non-violent.

Quote:

You mention things like "squirting water at your sister isn't a loving act" as if it's LAW, but I totally disagree -- if both kids are having fun, it IS a loving act.
Having fun does not equal feeling loved.

I find it interesting that you feel all anti-violent people are "close-minded self-righteous"







trying to satisfy our egos.

*When you allow your child to play with weapons designed to kill human beings, you are promoting violence, not love.*


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Since when is a few ounces of flimsy plastic, which can be filled with water, a "weapon designed to kill human beings"? Since when is a toy sword that can be bent in half by a 6-month-old baby (ds2 uses it as a teething toy) a "weapon designed to kill human beings"?

And, you're seriously twisting what people say when you equate this:

Quote:

Maybe it would be helpful if you'd give a few examples of what you mean by this, because spewing the same dogmatic line over and over doesn't increase anyone's understanding of your point of view.
with this:

Quote:

you feel all anti-violent people are "close-minded self-righteous" trying to satisfy our egos
I grew up playing with toy guns, toy swords, etc., etc. and none of the children I played with were placed at risk by my presence.

Also, this (to me) makes no sense at all:

Quote:

I have no problem with aggressive play, power play, etc. I will not allow violent play in my home.
It is stifling to allow children to pretend to hurt, kill, and/or cause pain.
It's stifling to "allow children to pretend" (interesting phrasing, btw - I'm not nearly violent enough to dictate how my child _thinks_) to do these things, yet aggressive play is okay?? So - it's not okay to let my child pretend to cause pain, but it _is_ okay to let him actually hurt somebody? Maybe you could explain this one, because the _only_ time my son has _ever_ hurt one of his friends is accidentally, in the course of wrestling..."aggressive play".


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
Since when is a few ounces of flimsy plastic, which can be filled with water, a "weapon designed to kill human beings"? Since when is a toy sword that can be bent in half by a 6-month-old baby (ds2 uses it as a teething toy) a "weapon designed to kill human beings"?

Are you kidding me?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
I grew up playing with toy guns, toy swords, etc., etc. and none of the children I played with were placed at risk by my presence.

No, probably not, but you are unable to differentiate aggression from violence. Without that key piece of information, you are promoting violence.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
So - it's not okay to let my child pretend to cause pain, but it _is_ okay to let him actually hurt somebody?

Again, aggression is not violence! Human beings are born with voices and the ability to use them. It is a fact that a person can be aggressive without once being violent.
Aggression comes from the need to communicate, to get one's needs met, or set boundaries.
Violence comes from violence. It is learned, not inherent.

I have already posted the link to the other discussion about aggression and violence.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maggie05*
This debate has helped me to clarify my stance. I will continue to disallow toy weapons, guns and swords, but if my son wishes to create such things in his imagination, I think I will allow that.









I thought it was quite clear that it is dangerous to even try to control a child's imagination, so, why would you even think of it as a possibility?

I know I would never assert authority over my child's imagination.
That is completely different than choosing to live in a non-violent/anti-violent home.

It is dangerous, IMO, to promote violence, as they say, "You reap, what you sow."


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Again, aggression is not violence! Human beings are born with voices and the ability to use them. It is a fact that a person can be aggressive without once being violent.

I was referring specifically to aggressive _play_, as someone else earlier in the thread had discussed...the sort of behaviour witnessed among the young in all primate species. I wasn't talking about voices - I was talking about "rough housing", which you had already agreed was natural, aggressive play.

Quote:

Violence comes from violence. It is learned, not inherent.
So...where'd it come from in the first place?


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
So...where'd it come from in the first place?

Okay, the reason I don't answer such questions is because they are not productive to having a discussion. Some ppl say it was Cain and Able, IMO, no one will ever know.

Why don't we stick with the facts. It might make this discussion more interesting and we all might learn something.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
It is dangerous, IMO, to promote violence, as they say, "You reap, what you sow."

You still haven't provided _any_ evidence that allowing a little boy to wave around a toy sword and pretend to kill dragons is "promoting violence". My son is almost 13, and so far, I've reaped a loving, kind, helpful son who dotes on his little sister and baby brother and is always willing to walk away from a potential schoolyard fight - a terrifying harvest, I don't think. He's one of the least dangerous kids I've ever met.


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## Maggie05 (Jun 20, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*







I thought it was quite clear that it is dangerous to even try to control a child's imagination, so, why would you even think of it as a possibility?

I know I would never assert authority over my child's imagination.
That is completely different than choosing to live in a non-violent/anti-violent home.

It is dangerous, IMO, to promote violence, as they say, "You reap, what you sow."

Don't bother baiting me any more. Not bitin' !


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
You still haven't provided _any_ evidence that allowing a little boy to wave around a toy sword and pretend to kill dragons is "promoting violence". My son is almost 13, and so far, I've reaped a loving, kind, helpful son who dotes on his little sister and baby brother and is always *willing to walk away* from a potential schoolyard fight - a terrifying harvest, I don't think. He's one of the least dangerous kids I've ever met.

The genocide of the NA's in America. Need any more evidence?
Just look around you! There is violence everywhere in this country. You can't escape it. What more proof do you need?

My child would never "walk away" but settle the dispute without violence.
It is not about who is creating a monster. Plenty of children have grown up in violent homes and have not done the same, but it has taken a toll on their psyche/spirit.
Why promote something that causes hurt?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
Okay, the reason I don't answer such questions is because they are not productive to having a discussion. Some ppl say it was Cain and Able, IMO, no one will ever know.

Why don't we stick with the facts. It might make this discussion more interesting and we all might learn something.

No - no one will ever know. So, how can you state as a fact that "violence is always learned", if you don't know how/where the first violence originated? I haven't seen too many facts in this discussion. It's all about opinions.


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## tiffani (May 17, 2002)

MamaInTheBoonies said:


> I know I would never assert authority over my child's imagination.
> That is completely different than choosing to live in a non-violent/anti-violent home.
> 
> 
> > So help us out here, then. What would you do if your child picked up a stick and pretended to fight an imaginary dragon, or pretended to be a superhero battling "bad guys" with all sorts of powers, not weapons. Do these fall into the category of violence for you?


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
The genocide of the NA's in America. Need any more evidence?
Just look around you! There is violence everywhere in this country. You can't escape it. What more proof do you need?

Which country? Yours or mine?
There's violence in many, many countries - maybe all of them. So, the fact that it exists is "proof" that playing with a toy sword is the root cause? Do you really believe that if we took away all toy weapons and stopped allowing children to slay imaginary dragons (how we could stop that, I have no idea), violence would just disappear?

Quote:

My child would never "walk away" but settle the dispute without violence.
It is not about who is creating a monster. Plenty of children have grown up in violent homes and have not done the same, but it has taken a toll on their psyche/spirit.
Why promote something that causes hurt?
There was no dispute. Twice, my son has been confronted by kids who want to get into a big fight for no reason at all, and he's walked away. He's solved many, many disputes with his friends and peers through talk, communication and diplomacy, but sometimes that hasn't worked, because the other child doesn't want to solve the dispute - they just want to hit somebody.

You still haven't given one shred of evidence that waving around a toy sword has damaged anybody's psyche or spirit, and you haven't given one shred of evidence that doing causes anybody hurt. You have consisently stated your opinion that this kind of play promotes violence as though it's a fact, then asked us why we would promote that. I don't promote violence. I have no right to dictate to my son what he should/shouldn't imagine, think or pretend when nobody is getting hurt by it.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tiffani*

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
I know I would never assert authority over my child's imagination.
That is completely different than choosing to live in a non-violent/anti-violent home.

So help us out here, then. What would you do if your child picked up a stick and pretended to fight an imaginary dragon, or pretended to be a superhero battling "bad guys" with all sorts of powers, not weapons. Do these fall into the category of violence for you?

Yes. They have never pretended to play with dragons. So, I will tell you a real story about what I did do.
My children went to Bible camp (no, I am not religious, but that does not mean I am afraid to allow my children to learn about other's religions). They came home with swords they made themselves and re-enacted being "Saviors!" and killing each other.
I almost cried.
We immediately sat down with them and gently asked them to sit with us. We are always a family, and we decide as a family.
We explained our stance on violence and asked them if we could put the swords up for a while until, as a family, we decided what to do with them.
We went to the library and researched swords and the idea of 'Saviors'.
After much talk, we all decided that we were proud of their ability to create with wood and paint, so, we would keep them someplace safe as keepsakes. We also keep the story written, so, when they are older they can show their children and retell the story.

We, also, decided that what was taught that 'Saviors must kill the person in order to save them" was essentially wrong. And, we still have discussions all the time about violence, as, we witness quite a bit just in life.


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## tiffani (May 17, 2002)

Storm Bride brings up a great point -- the rate of violence in the US is much higher than the rate in Canada, where we both live. Personally, I believe it's because in Canada, people are far more respected by the government, and by society in general -- the proof of that is the far better social systems we have in Canada. The fact that mothers are given a full year's paid maternity leave is a HUGE sign to me that the government (and society) here places far more value on humans than on the almighty dollar, which rules the land in the US. Capitalism (the true root of all evil, IMO) is totally running rampant in the states, whereas in Canada, the vast majority of people (and the gov)place humanity above making a buck. There is more violence and crime in the states because there is more poverty and big-brothership going on there -- people don't feel respected.

Violence has been around far longer than toy weapons -- kids from a loving home who play with toy weapons are just as peace-loving and non-violent as kids who don't. It's the spirit behind the play that makes the difference, not what we see happening on the surface.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

The Anishinaabeg do not promote violence and there are no stories like the ones you read to your children. There is no imaginary dragons that need to be slain. *Evil cannot be defeated by killing it*, which is what I have noticed most Good Guy vs Bad Guy stories say.
In ours, the bad guys become the good guys. Join forces, so to speak.


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## tiffani (May 17, 2002)

see, with a few specific details, it all becomes clear. The situation you describe would bother me too, and I would have done the same thing...well, I wouldn't have sent my kids to bible camp in the first place (not because I'm afraid of it, I just don't like most of it) -- christianity has a horrendous record of violence, but really, who would have thought they'd promote that side of it at bible camp?

My kids pretend to battle dragons, pirates, bad guys, etc all the time -- we enjoy reading a wide variety of children's literature, and they use their imaginations to build on the stories we read, and create things out of nowhere as well.

BUT, they have never once, to my knowledge (and we live in a pretty small house, and they don't feel the need to hide anything from me, so it's safe to say I'd be aware of it if it had happened) have EVER pretended to stab anyone, or shoot anyone. My son did point the gun at his baby friend, but he didn't have any idea about what guns do, so we had to discuss why that's not a good type of play, and now he knows why toy guns shouldn't be pointed at people. He battles the air and the creatures in his head, but he's never pretended to use a weapon against a person. To me that would seem more violent than his imaginary play against imaginary creatures, but it still wouldn't indicate that a kid IS violent.

You're right, violence is everywhere, especially in the US. We don't have cable tv so our kids won't be exposed to it there, and we watch movies with any violence in them with them so we can talk about it, but they have a really good understanding of the difference between movies and real life. I can't stand violence for violence's sake, but I'm not opposed to them seeing it if it's in a movie that is otherwise valuable. It's all part of life, and I'm glad to be able to help them digest it and put it in it's proper context. I don't think it's in any way harming them or grooming them to be violent as they grow.

I'm not promoting violence, I'm just realistic about it, and see it for what it really is -- I'm not afraid of my very sweet gentle children seeing the occasional pirate movie or pretending to save the world from evil villains, in whatever way they see fit.


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## tiffani (May 17, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
The Anishinaabeg do not promote violence and there are no stories like the ones you read to your children. There is no imaginary dragons that need to be slain. *Evil cannot be defeated by killing it*, which is what I have noticed most Good Guy vs Bad Guy stories say.
In ours, the bad guys become the good guys. Join forces, so to speak.

I totally agree with you, and we read many stories (and make up alternative endings sometimes to the ones that are too "good guy/bad guy") like the ones you describe.

My children are not fed a steady diet of "defeat the evil force" but that theme is out there so we explore whatever comes at us. We often talk about other ways the protagonist could have solved the problem.

Oh, and by the way, we're just using the dragon theme as an example -- most of the time my son and the dragon are in cahoots, flying around and having all different sorts of adventures. Dragons are more often "good guys" than evil.


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## vforba (Dec 27, 2005)

On the flipside of all this I'd like to know how many of you who do not or won't allow guns into your house of any kind allow violent video games in that show people being killed on the video games in any form?
It really troubles me to see how much people will do otherwise, when they say guns are bad but will have such violence in their homes otherwise, whether on the t.v. or video games.
I've grown up around guns all my life, hunted with my dad and brother. My dh and all his brothers hunt and enjoy it. WE do have 4yo ds that's enthralled by them and has several that his uncles have boughten for him. He knows what he's allowed to shoot and what not to shoot.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vforba*
On the flipside of all this I'd like to know how many of you who do not or won't allow guns into your house of any kind allow violent video games in that show people being killed on the video games in any form?
It really troubles me to see how much people will do otherwise, when they say guns are bad but will have such violence in their homes otherwise, whether on the t.v. or video games.
I've grown up around guns all my life, hunted with my dad and brother. My dh and all his brothers hunt and enjoy it. WE do have 4yo ds that's enthralled by them and has several that his uncles have boughten for him. He knows what he's allowed to shoot and what not to shoot.

We do not have television, nor video games. I am all for gun safety, even if you do not own one.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

FYI - Several posts have been removed from this thread. Please play nice, folks. Take a moment to review the User Agreement before posting further.

Thanks!


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## Phoenix_Rising (Jun 27, 2005)

DS is way too young to have any toys like this yet - only 11 weeks - but if I have anything to do with it he will never have any. DW keeps saying things like "but what about a water gun? Those are fine, right?" I don't know how to explain it to her but I just feel like a water gun is essentially the same thing as a "toy gun". Thoughts on this?
-Susannah


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## karinasusy (Jul 12, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaInTheBoonies*
You are confusing violence with aggression.
What you described above has absolutely nothing to do with violence.

I was curious to see how the Oxford Dictionary defines aggression. Definition is: hostile or violent behaviour or attitudes.

It seems as though aggression is violence.


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## ~member~ (May 23, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karinasusy*
I was curious to see how the Oxford Dictionary defines aggression. Definition is: hostile or violent behaviour or attitudes.

It seems as though aggression is violence.

That is interesting. According to Oxford, it came from the latin word, "to attack".

The definition I had been using was one of the ways a child will set boundaries using physical force or aggressive movements.

Maybe we should start a spin-off thread discussing specifically "Aggression vs. Violence" and see what we can make of it?


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

DH & I had this issue forever. So then, we came to a comprimise. I want the girls' to know all about guns - how to shoot them, gun safety, etc.
I told Dh that the only way the girls' could have toy guns were if they were treated like real guns the whole time. No pointing at people or things, no burying them in the toybox when they were done playing with them (put on a shelf up out of reach of younger kids, etc. etc)
So yeah, They can have toy guns. But I honestly hope by the ages of 5 or so they are out practicing with the real thing so as to better learn gun safety.


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## Kristine233 (Jul 15, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RubyWild*
We own guns, and I grew up around guns and hunting. For that reason, we were never allowed to play with toy guns and were trained in firearm safety, training which included never pretending to shoot any living thing, even with a toy. Guns are for killing, and none of the children in our extended family were allowed to pretend to kill things.

Ditto.. thats how it is here too.

We have real guns for hunting because Dh is an advid hunter and for that reason alone we've never allowed toy guns in our house. The kids know the difference between real and toy but its too serious an issue for us to *play* with. Both my older 2 kids have been out with dad target practicing too so they are learning gun safety and will take safety courses as soon as they are old enough. We keep the hunting guns locked up and no ammo with them but it still would make me feel ill to think of an accident so its just not an area of play theme we are comfortable with here. The kids are allowed squirt bottles and other funs stuff in the summer, but not water guns.

My younger cousin was raised around guns and knew gun safety, it was hammered into him and he was a crack shot before he could drive. But one day when he wasabout 5 he had a toy gun (that looked real) and was pretending to shoot carts from his front yard, one of the cars happened to be a police car. I tell ya, he got a lecture he'll never forget. Even though he already knew he wasnt supposed to do it, kids do stuff anyways. SO we dont even have the temptation around.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

We don't allow any toy guns (or swords) or water pistols in the house. We have real guns so toy ones are completely out.


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## Kontessa (Nov 5, 2005)

Hubby and I thought a lot about this topic. He is in the military. He loves to shoot but not at people. LOL (He is working on going chaplin because of this) But he will still love to shoot at targets. It is not the gun that is the issue, but the people behind them. My father is a hunter, growing up I was always upset with him about it, as an adult, and Pagan, I see the value he gives the world when he hunts the over populated areas, and that is where he hunts. And how he uses as much of the animal as possible.

We think our children can tell the difference between a toy and the real thing. Cars kill more people then guns in this country and yet we still drive and let them play with them.

Plus water guns are great fun for the whole family in the summer! LOL
I grew up with guns, I will not let a real one in my home, but I will not tell someone else they can not have one if they are moral people. I asume my children will be moral as we are trying to raise them to be so and do so every day in homeschooling.

Blessings,
Kontessa


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## Kontessa (Nov 5, 2005)

Itsn't it hard sometimes to pull ones self away from the thinking that "Well it did not do me any harm"?

I am finding myself doing that now.

Something that may help some of us is looking into NVC Non-Violent Communication.

Some how I can play kill-em video games as can my husband, he is in the military, and we are both peaceful people. Never spanking and rarely do we even yell.

Others are very different!

Blessings,
Kimmy


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## jkpmomtoboys (Jun 1, 2004)

Haven't read the whole thread but want to answer the OP:

We don't allow guns, toy guns, anything that looks like a gun, violent videos, shows, computer games, etc... in our house.

Nevertheless, my 5yo will pick up two sticks in the backyard and pretend they are a gun.

What aggravates me is that friends with girls will automatically assume that any boy who plays like that is exposed to violent images or toys in the home.

I want to scream at them: "They're BOYS! It's hyper-programmed in them!"

But I can't very well prohibit picking up sticks, can I...

Argh.


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## jkpmomtoboys (Jun 1, 2004)

Haven't read the whole thread but want to answer the OP:

We don't allow guns, toy guns, anything that looks like a gun, violent videos, shows, computer games, etc... in our house.

Nevertheless, my 5yo will pick up two sticks in the backyard and pretend they are a gun.

What aggravates me is that friends with girls will automatically assume that any boy who plays like that is exposed to violent images or toys in the home.

I want to scream at them: "They're BOYS! It's hyper-programmed in them!"

But I can't very well prohibit picking up sticks, can I...

Argh.


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