# Gender neutral parenting?



## leighi123 (Nov 14, 2007)

How do you feel about gender neutral parenting?

I read an article about a couple who chose no to tell people their 2yr old's gender, and while I think that is exreme, the idea is interesting.

With my ds I try to buy toys and clothes that a boy or a girl could use, yet dispite that and not watching tv, he STILL uses his hand as a gun or a sword (while carrying a baby doll on his back). Is it even possible to raise a gender neutral child or are they just wired so differently that it is impossible? And is it even a good idea to try? or should girls be raised 'pink' and boys raised 'blue'?


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

I think there's a healthy middle ground between "pink" and "blue" parenting and gender neutral parenting.

I believe that on a bell curve, boys and girls are different. There's nothing wrong, IMO, with acknowledging the probability that girls might like/be like XYZ to a greater degree than boys, as long as you simultaneously acknowledge that they might _not_ be. I think it's just as damaging to prevent a "girly" girl indulging her love for stereotypically girly things as it is to push those things on her. In theory, gender-neutral parents wouldn't necessarily do that, but I can imagine some would in practice (as it'd be a little embarrassing to preach about the virtues of gender-neutrality while yur daughter paraded past in a pink Princess tutu and glitter lipstick, pushing a pram - you know?).

So - I dunno. I'd need a better definition of "gender-neutral parenting", I think. What would it involve? Not pushing gender-specific toys and activities on kids? Not letting them use gender-segregated bathrooms? Allowing boys to wear girls' clothes if they want? Buying them an equal number of girls' and boys' clothes as a matter of course?

I think most kids are more "gender-neutral" than we give them credit for. People make comments about how maternal my two-year-old daughter is, because she's notoriously clucky around babies. But she also has perpetually skinned knees and loves trains, trucks, tractors and cars - "boy" things. I think people sometimes overlook the latter because they notice the baby thing first and peg her as a "girl". You know? They see what they expect to see. If she were a boy they might notice the cars thing more obviously, because they expected to find that attribute in her. Him. Whatever.


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## funkymamajoy (May 25, 2008)

If it helps my DD also pretends to have guns and swords, while my 1st DS has a baby. We just get them toys that they like and they share amongst themselves. I'm not worried that I'm raising a chauvinist just because my son has more interest in cars then barbies. That's just what he likes.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I haven't gone gender neutral and don't see any need to. As a mother I did some things that were very gender specific that I hope my dd will do if she has a child. I hope she loves the gender she is and doesn't associate being a woman as limiting or something to hide behind neutral activities and belongings or only doing things traditionally associated with girls. I want her to be happy with who she is and embrace what she loves without questioning whether she should or not. I don't think neutral is the way to go though.

I think that girls and boys should be able to follow their interests, and I really don't like the push towards saying that a toy or color should be associated with a specific gender and that we should avoid these or only give each gender these. Toys are toys and kids should get to interact with the ones that interest them. I get my dd toys she enjoys. We have a wide variety of cars, trains and tracks, building toys, dinosaurs, dolls, play animals, etc... and my dd uses them frequently and enjoys them.


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## leighi123 (Nov 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smokering* 

I'd need a better definition of "gender-neutral parenting"

This is something else I wonder about - because 'gender neutral' by definition means 'not specifially 'boy' or 'girl'' - BUT does that mean you ONLY buy gender neutral clothes like jeans and white shirts, and toys like art supplies and books, and only do non-gender associated activites like swimming... OR does it mean you buy both boys and girls clothes/toys, and sign your son up for ballet and karate.

I'm not sure which is meant when people say they are raising their kids neutral.


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## leighi123 (Nov 14, 2007)

Oh and I just have my ds, and most of his friends his age are boys... I think it would be much easier to 'not have to think about it' so much if you had a boy and a girl, esp. if they are close in age b/c then toys/clothes could be shared and it would be easier for the kids to have options of both kinds of things.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

I'm not sure what the exact definition of gender neutral childrearing is, but I would say that we don't do anything affirmative to be neutral...we just don't say anything negative about DD's choices. For example, she loves wearing tutus but she also shows great interest in being a mechanic (for some reason she finds the idea of fixing things cool). Unlike my parents (whom I love but with whom I often disagree), I wouldn't tell DD she couldn't do something or discourage her from doing something because it is a boy's thing. I was told that I couldn't do things because I was a girl. I promised myself that I would never do that to a daughter. Oddly, my parents and I were often at odds because I didn't dress DD in pink. So what? I mean, it's not like I dressed her in clothes specifically made for boys, but brown was a popular color and I thought the clothes were fun. A lot of DD's toys are art related but that is because she loves art. She has dolls, trucks and games. She is who she is and I'm not going to sweat over things that give her pleasure at play.


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## claddaghmom (May 30, 2008)

I guess it's like saying Attachment Parenting. It's just too vague. I don't and won't force my child into gender specific roles or behaviors. But I consider that basic common sense parenting. If my girl wants to play knights or my boy wants to play kitchen then all the better for them. Looking back at my childhood, I know I came from a more gender neutral family, but it all seems normal to me. My brothers can cook and do laundry and care for babies better than most of the girlfriends I've met in my life. Meanwhile I can change the oil on my car, do basic plumbing/electric and other housework, etc. Of course, those are trivial examples of gender roles. It had more to do with my parents simply unconditionally accepting us and trying to give us resources and skills for our lives so we could do what we wanted, not so we could fit into a mold.


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## kriket (Nov 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CatsCradle* 
I wouldn't tell DD she couldn't do something or discourage her from doing something because it is a boy's thing. I was told that I couldn't do things because I was a girl.

ITA. This is as far as I take GNP (Gender neutral Parenting, we are saying it a lot, I am abbreviating it







) Like PP mentioned, there is a lot of ground between an entirely blue existence, and not reveling gender.

My DS is very young, but he likes to head butt and ram trucks together and he even likes to brush barbie doll hair.
I don't think that he is going to be a sissy and I don't think I am going to 'make him' gay. I think it is a valuable skill to be able to play with the opposite gender. Men in the workplace are having whole seminars on this! If only their mothers would have let them brush barbie hair with the girls.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

I try to be as GN as practical. I always by the GN version of things, and if my older dd has a choice she often (maybe even usually) choses the boy version of things. I havn't kept score but she really likes pirates and star wars. The younger one's baby blanket is blue, and that was somewhat chance but I felt no need for pink or to get a different one. I buy mostly gender neutral clothes, though we've been given a lot of clothes and those are usually pretty girly. We have lots of trucks and trains and things in our house, but we also have dolls and a play kitchen. If something comes in primary colors or pink and purple, I get the primary color one.


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## leighi123 (Nov 14, 2007)

I have a friend who has a ds the same age as mine, her dh will NOT let her ds have anything remotly girly (he wouldnt let his son play on a pink ride on car at a kids playroom place b/c he thought it would 'turn him gay', and wont let him wear a speck of pink on any of his clothes.... )

My ds couldnt care less what color he wears, and I usually make his clothes so I go for bright colors and embelish them however I feel like (his spring shirt is bright green with multi colored flowers on it for example, but its a boys button up shirt pattern)


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

I try to parent my children according to their needs and interests, rather than according to gender. A lot of the things that my kids do are 'gender neutral'. Both kids are really into stuffed animals right now. Are stuffed animals 'girl' toys or 'boy' toys? I dunno. I do know that they fill a need for each child. Ds has invented great stories about his menagerie of stuffed animals (including the Animal Olympics and the ANC (animal news channel)).

Both also play soccer and this year, baseball/tee ball. Both ride their bikes and scooters. Ds plays more with girls than boys. Is it because he's the only boy in the neighborhood or because he's a sensitive new age kind of guy? (He is.) He doesn't like violent play or rough and tumble play. He's only recently become interested in sports.

My kids also have some pretty gendered behaviors. Ds was fascinated with all things with wheels from a very early age. The child would wake from a sound sleep when he heard the garbage truck several blocks away -- for 2 years, we could not miss seeing the garbage truck when it came. Dd watched too, but only because her brother did. Dd is much more into caregiving and pretending about families. Dd sat down and pretended to change her doll's diaper at 15 months, something her brother _never_ did. Ever. Dd wants to do dance, ds is mortified at the thought.

If my kids have access to a range of toys and a range of models for how to live, then that's the best I can do. I am the WOH parent and dh works from home. So, they have a great model of parents doing different things. I do the gardening and a lot of outside yard care, but dh does more house maintenance. We both do laundry and cook. We both do dishes and baths.


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## Katie T (Nov 8, 2008)

I love the fact that my DS likes to wear his baby, has to have the pink or purple cup and plate ect. I didn't want to raise a boy who knew those things to be only for girls. My DDs both love playing with cars, blocks, and trains.

When I had my first child I didn't put a lot of thought into those things, it wasn't until I had a boy did it really hit me that I am one of the only people I knew at the time who "allowed" there boy to love those activities.

I don't try to do neutral parenting as I don't know anything about it, I just do what feels right and hope he turns out to be a great husband and father and a very nurturing person.

This thread is interesting.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smokering* 
I'd need a better definition of "gender-neutral parenting", I think.

How about a whole different term. How about gender flexible parenting. Where the parent is OK with their kid loving tutus and sparkles and pink, whatever the child's gender is. The parent is OK if the child loves construction vehicles and every thing football and blue, whatever the child's gender is. The parent is fine if the child loves nature and books and yellow, whatever the child's gender is.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *leighi123* 
This is something else I wonder about - because 'gender neutral' by definition means 'not specifially 'boy' or 'girl'' - BUT does that mean you ONLY buy gender neutral clothes like jeans and white shirts, and toys like art supplies and books, and only do non-gender associated activites like swimming... OR does it mean you buy both boys and girls clothes/toys, and sign your son up for ballet and karate.

I'm not sure which is meant when people say they are raising their kids neutral.

The problem with the term 'gender neutral' is that different people have a different idea of what it takes to be gender neutral. There are parents who don't purchase anything that can be associated with a gender in the name of being gender neutral, but what they are really doing is being non-gendered. There are parents who refuse to allow anything for their child's biological gender in the house in the name of being gender neutral, but they are still being gender specific.

Gender neutral is allowing your child access to things across the board, not limiting based on some preconceived idea of what is proper, or some preconceived idea of what is "sticking it to society". Most gender neutral children will likely fall on one side of the gender line when it comes to toys/activities or the other, but it is the side _they_ choose not the side chosen for them.

Gender neutral means that inanimate objects have no gender period. Dolls are not a girl thing and trucks are not a boy thing. They just things.


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## leighi123 (Nov 14, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
How about a whole different term. How about gender flexible parenting. Where the parent is OK with their kid loving tutus and sparkles and pink, whatever the child's gender is. The parent is OK if the child loves construction vehicles and every thing football and blue, whatever the child's gender is. The parent is fine if the child loves nature and books and yellow, whatever the child's gender is.

I like this.


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## carfreemama (Jun 13, 2007)

We have a "girly girl." I have always been attracted to the idea of androgyny and have been very insistent that the differences between men and women are largely, if not wholly, manufactured. So somewhere, that does inform my parenting. However, what I find myself doing is much as other pp; just following dd's lead.

I do make a conscious effort to switch my gender references; as in, I don't default to calling everything "he" or "him." I read somewhere that you should try not to refer to your CHILD as only one gender, in case he/she doesn't identify with that gender. So if you have a girl, you would switch up calling her him/her. I haven't done that.









What I focus on is making sure that the things dd has are functional, rather than souped-up girly stuff. For example, we just bought her a new 2-wheel bike. I had no problem with it being purple; but I refused to buy the pink bike with the streamers that could get caught in things and the cheap plastic pedals. I have a major pet peeve with how gendered sports equipment for kids is, for that reason. So we searched for a bike that was purple, but was a real bike.

I am also on the lookout for toys/behaviours/clothes that would be limiting for dd. She is very sports-minded and we are an active family. Dresses and skirts, even tutus, are fine even to the playground (with shorts); dress-up heels are not.

I don't wear makeup or shave my legs, but I won't mind if dd does (I suspect she will). She can go to grandma's house for that and I will buy her stuff if she asks.

She plays more with boys than girls and THAT is something I want to preserve. She's getting a healthy range of interests from her playmates, I think. I can't stand "girls only" stuff at her age-6-and I think that does teach that boys and girls should do different things. We just said no to a "separate gender" soccer team for that reason. If she asks to be with all girls, I will honour that; though I will talk with her about it. I am also looking for a gender-inclusive alternative to Sparks and Brownies, too. And we talk about inclusivity in sexuality/marriage, too. That's important to us. I guess this, too, is a pick-your-battles kind of thing.


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## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
How about a whole different term. How about gender flexible parenting.

I love it.

A big "gender flexible" situation just came up in our house. Two years ago we bought a bike for DS. He picked it out, and it happened to be hot pink. I was fine with that, DH was fine with that. Now technically he can use the bike another year or two. But I have decided because he is starting school in August, and will be biking home every day, that he can have a new bike. DD will get his old bike. Why? Honestly, because I don't want him getting harassed when he starts school, by the older kids at school who think he has a "sissy girly bike" or whatever. I don't know if this will happen or not. But I want to help the transition, which I think is HUGE. DS will of course pick out his new bike. But I am pretty confident he will choose something red or blue or spiderman.... type. So I could just stop here and say he needs a new bike and feel good that I am being totally gender neutral by having him pick it out. But if I have to be brutally honest, well then, part of it is because I don't want him to get hurt or feel bad.... I can't prevent all hurt in his life, but sometimes I still try.


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## Landover (Oct 12, 2007)

Why on earth would you want to parent you child in a gender neutral way... you child is *not* gender neutral? This to me is akin to the whole... "We aren't racist because we don't see color... well, not seeing someone's color, embracing it, and loving it is racist."

My kiddos are stamped as either male or female and I want to celebrate the differences between the two based on that. Afterall, we are NOT the same.


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## sleepingbeauty (Sep 1, 2007)

I don't believe in pushing pink and Barbie down girls' throats and trucks and blue down boys'. If they naturally like that, cool. If not, that's cool too.

When I was in high school I worked at a daycare. I actually got told off by one of the teachers (I was a TA) for letting a little boy go play "kitchen". _Are you f-ing serious?!_ I honestly think that might have had something to do with my schedule suddenly becoming "incompatable".


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## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Landover* 
Why on earth would you want to parent you child in a gender neutral way... you child is *not* gender neutral? This to me is akin to the whole... "We aren't racist because we don't see color... well, not seeing someone's color, embracing it, and loving it is racist."

My kiddos are stamped as either male or female and I want to celebrate the differences between the two based on that. Afterall, we are NOT the same.










I agree. I have a boy, not a gender neutral baby. Things can be gender neutral I suppose, but people are not.

My son wears blue a lot because he looks really really good in it. He happily plays in the toy kitchen at the library, and then runs over and knocks all the chairs down at the reading tables.

I read about the people who did not reveal their child's gender and meh-not interested in using my son as some kind of random social experiment.

Also, I did not like the publicity aspect they seemed to be courting as well. I really got the idea in the end it was about THEM, and not about their child.


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## Alyantavid (Sep 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Smokering* 
I think there's a healthy middle ground between "pink" and "blue" parenting and gender neutral parenting.

I believe that on a bell curve, boys and girls are different. There's nothing wrong, IMO, with acknowledging the probability that girls might like/be like XYZ to a greater degree than boys, as long as you simultaneously acknowledge that they might _not_ be. I think it's just as damaging to prevent a "girly" girl indulging her love for stereotypically girly things as it is to push those things on her. In theory, gender-neutral parents wouldn't necessarily do that, but I can imagine some would in practice (as it'd be a little embarrassing to preach about the virtues of gender-neutrality while yur daughter paraded past in a pink Princess tutu and glitter lipstick, pushing a pram - you know?).

So - I dunno. I'd need a better definition of "gender-neutral parenting", I think. What would it involve? Not pushing gender-specific toys and activities on kids? Not letting them use gender-segregated bathrooms? Allowing boys to wear girls' clothes if they want? Buying them an equal number of girls' and boys' clothes as a matter of course?

I think most kids are more "gender-neutral" than we give them credit for. People make comments about how maternal my two-year-old daughter is, because she's notoriously clucky around babies. But she also has perpetually skinned knees and loves trains, trucks, tractors and cars - "boy" things. I think people sometimes overlook the latter because they notice the baby thing first and peg her as a "girl". You know? They see what they expect to see. If she were a boy they might notice the cars thing more obviously, because they expected to find that attribute in her. Him. Whatever.









That exactly.

I have 2 boys. We've raised them to pick out whatever toys they want, which included my now almost 4 year old throwing a monsterous tantrum when my mom took him shopping once because all he wanted was a baby doll.

We've let them grow their hair long, which has brought on so many comments towards us for "allowing" it. They play with whatever they want. My 8 year old has corrected his teacher when she said pink was a girl color. My younger son requested I paint his toenails a pretty pink last night.

But they're both obsessed with guns, wrestling, sports, all the "typical" boy stuff. It's nothing we've done, it's just who they are. So I really don't care if my toenail painted young son wants to play lightsabers. We give them lots of choices and let them decide who they want to be.


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## ellemenope (Jul 11, 2009)

I have a 21 month old sweet little girl. This seems to be a really hard age to find clothes that do not have a clear gender message. Even the polos for girls are 'girly'. And, I won't even go into the things they print on the shirts now. Well, I am sure you know. I try to block all that out.

My DD loves dinosaurs and tigers. She is not in balet. She doesn't even know what a princess is. She likes pink, but she also loves orange to death right now. She would love to wear a firetruck like her uncle drives.

I constantly go over to the boys side to look for clothes. I get nearly all her pants and shorts over there. I look for pink boy polos. I get her dino and tiger shirts. I got her plain khaki overalls from the boys dept, because every single girls' equivelant was pink and frilly. My husband constantly tells me, "that is boyish." I ask why, and it usually boils down to, "there is no pink."

She wears dresses. I just want her to know that she can wear things that aren't girly too. I don't want her to tell me a plain white polo is for a boy when she grows up.

However, when we go out I always make it quite clear she is a girl, whether through her hair, pink shoes, a pink hat, pink undershirt.

So I guess I am sending the message to her, "you can wear boys clothing, but you still are a girl." I consider myslef pretty progressive in this area but I guess I am not as far as GNP.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Landover* 
Why on earth would you want to parent you child in a gender neutral way... you child is *not* gender neutral? This to me is akin to the whole... "We aren't racist because we don't see color... well, not seeing someone's color, embracing it, and loving it is racist."

My kiddos are stamped as either male or female and I want to celebrate the differences between the two based on that. Afterall, we are NOT the same.









I think a lot of differences between boys and girls, particularly color preferences and a lot of toy issues, are influenced by society much much more than gender. I want my dds to be raised free of assumptions of what their interests should be.


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## Landover (Oct 12, 2007)

Quote:

I think a lot of differences between boys and girls, particularly color preferences and a lot of toy issues, are influenced by society much much more than gender. I want my dds to be raised free of assumptions of what their interests should be.
I think what you are describing is very different then gender neutral parenting. I think a lot of parents allow their children to explore whatever interests they have (especially if you have two different genders in the same home). I cook with, play babies with, etc. my son as much as I do my daughter. However, I would never be interested in not allowing my son to know that he is, indeed, a male. But he is free to play with whatever he wants.









For the record, my friends who identify with a different gender then their sex like to wear clothing and do activities that express their gender identification. Do deny a child the ability to do that just as bad (only the other end of the spectrum).


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

I'm a very androgynous person by nature. That is the way I've parented my two.

We petted snakes, hunted frogs in the pond, brushed hair, made crowns of flowers, used toy dump trucks to play in the mud, wore a lot of plain old t-shirts and jeans.... made cookies, played with sticks and sharp objects, went to art museums, played with baby dolls, climbed trees etc and so on

At one point, both my dd and my ds were obsessed with dinosaurs. Two years later they were both obsessed with trains. My daughter had favorite clothes with dinosaurs on them. My son wore a hat and Mardi gras necklace.

But, they knew that they were "a boy" and "a girl". We just downplayed those facts and concentrated on developing well rounded people. They are teens now and I'm so proud of them.


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

The biggie in trying to parent gender neutral is doing my best to not train my kid for any specific social role. I think this is huge, and is the reason why so many gendered clothes and toys bother the heck outta me.

We give lip sevice to the notion that girls can be anything they want to be when they grow up...firefighter, doctor, astronaut, palentologist...but then when you go to buy your girl a dinosaur shirt you HAVE TO get it in the boys section. Same with space themed stuff and firetrucks. Just the very fact that these things only exist in a section labeled "boys" is reinforcing the notion that they are not for your girl...and once your girl figures that our she is not going to want to wear them anymore. So then what?

Clothes for girls are usually themed simply "pretty" as if that is the most important role for a female. Flowers, kitties, frills, ginghams, more flowers..."pretty" is the role we are training them for.

I am hoping to instill my son (and future kids) with a sense of outrage over this. The social message is so duplicious it just pisses me off. I love to put my kid in purple (I personally hate pink...for anyone) and it ticks me off that I usually have to go to the "girls" section to find it. I have also noticed that the clothing sizes in the girls section run much smaller than in boys, so we are already training wee girlies that tight clothes are for them, and loose ones for the opposite gender. Sad.

There is obviously no such thing as "just clothes" or "just toys" IMO.

Yes my child is a boy. I suppose I cannot count myself as a strict gender neutral parent because I acknowledge that. BUT just because he is a boy does not mean that he should have to conform to the pervasive social expectation of what being a "boy" means. In my perfect world he would never know what that expectation is. In the real world I can at least hope that he learns to recognise gender as a social construction and proceed accordingly. And feel outrage that someone is trying to pidgeonhole him based on the fact he has a penis.

Incedently there was a really interesting segment on NPR recently about sex differences. Worth a listen:

""Y" Matters
Neuropsychiatrist and author Dr. Louann Brizendine joins us to discuss her research and insights about the minds of men. How do the fundamental differences between women and men compare with the perceived differences? And just why does "Y" matter? Brizendine's new book is "The Male Brain.""

Link:http://www.kqed.org/epArchive/R201004071000


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *leighi123* 
With my ds I try to buy toys and clothes that a boy or a girl could use, yet dispite that and not watching tv, he STILL uses his hand as a gun or a sword (while carrying a baby doll on his back).

this is why some people choose to parent in a gender neutral way. we as a society (not targeting you specifically) make the assumption that guns = boy and doll = girl.
we strive for gender neutral parenting in our home, and this is what it means to us (and i am of the opinion that there's no hard and fast definition of what gender neutral parenting is, it's just trying to offset and challenge some of these cultural assumptions based upon personal views):
we don't buy our child clothing that was created with gender definitions in mind, because people treat "pink wearing baby" differently than, for example "orange wearing baby."

we personally don't assign specific gender to toys and tools. mommy uses a shovel and a gun. daddy bakes cookies and wears an apron.
we want our children to pick the activities and colors and interests based upon what they want, not upon the fact that they have been steered towards a particular interest/color/hobby because society dictates that boys have the guns and girls dance the ballet.
the best BEST resource i've seen, one that i love dearly, is the girls will be boys will be girls coloring book and the gender subversion pack at crimethinc (here if you're interested, gender subversion poster & coloring book w/ free pdf download or viewing) http://www.crimethinc.com/tools/posters.html


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## mamabear0314 (May 13, 2008)

I honestly think it's kind of silly. Whether or not you treat your son like a "boy" is not going to damage them. My son is a boy through and through. I dress him like a boy, I treat him like a boy. If he grows up and wants to do ballet or play music or something not "manly" we're not going to worry about it. We won't push sports if he doesn't want to play them. On the other hand if we have a girl who wants to be a tomboy, that's fine too. Let her play hockey (I did) and go hunting. I don't consider that gender neutral parenting, I consider it good parenting.
My son isn't gender neutral. He's a boy. So I'll treat and dress him like one. How he acts, what he does and what he plays with is 100% up to him.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl* 
The biggie in trying to parent gender neutral is doing my best to not train my kid for any specific social role. I think this is huge, and is the reason why so many gendered clothes and toys bother the heck outta me.

We give lip sevice to the notion that girls can be anything they want to be when they grow up...firefighter, doctor, astronaut, palentologist...but then when you go to buy your girl a dinosaur shirt you HAVE TO get it in the boys section. Same with space themed stuff and firetrucks. Just the very fact that these things only exist in a section labeled "boys" is reinforcing the notion that they are not for your girl...and once your girl figures that our she is not going to want to wear them anymore. So then what?

Clothes for girls are usually themed simply "pretty" as if that is the most important role for a female. Flowers, kitties, frills, ginghams, more flowers..."pretty" is the role we are training them for.

I am hoping to instill my son (and future kids) with a sense of outrage over this. The social message is so duplicious it just pisses me off. I love to put my kid in purple (I personally hate pink...for anyone) and it ticks me off that I usually have to go to the "girls" section to find it. I have also noticed that the clothing sizes in the girls section run much smaller than in boys, so we are already training wee girlies that tight clothes are for them, and loose ones for the opposite gender. Sad.

There is obviously no such thing as "just clothes" or "just toys" IMO.

Yes my child is a boy. I suppose I cannot count myself as a strict gender neutral parent because I acknowledge that. BUT just because he is a boy does not mean that he should have to conform to the pervasive social expectation of what being a "boy" means. In my perfect world he would never know what that expectation is. In the real world I can at least hope that he learns to recognise gender as a social construction and proceed accordingly. And feel outrage that someone is trying to pidgeonhole him based on the fact he has a penis.

Incedently there was a really interesting segment on NPR recently about sex differences. Worth a listen:

""Y" Matters
Neuropsychiatrist and author Dr. Louann Brizendine joins us to discuss her research and insights about the minds of men. How do the fundamental differences between women and men compare with the perceived differences? And just why does "Y" matter? Brizendine's new book is "The Male Brain.""

Link:http://www.kqed.org/epArchive/R201004071000









yeah that, and thanks for the link. i can't wait to give that a listen.


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *micah_mae_* 
I honestly think it's kind of silly. Whether or not you treat your son like a "boy" is not going to damage them. My son is a boy through and through. I dress him like a boy, I treat him like a boy. If he grows up and wants to do ballet or play music or something not "manly" we're not going to worry about it. We won't push sports if he doesn't want to play them. On the other hand if we have a girl who wants to be a tomboy, that's fine too. Let her play hockey (I did) and go hunting. I don't consider that gender neutral parenting, I consider it good parenting.
My son isn't gender neutral. He's a boy. So I'll treat and dress him like one. How he acts, what he does and what he plays with is 100% up to him.

I guess I'm not really clear on what "treat him like a boy" means? Are you encouraging him to do ballet now? I can tell you one thing though, and that is if you are reinforcing traditional gender roles than your boy is not likely to grow up to do ballet because that is not a traditional boy's activity. So for him to become interested in it would be unlikely, and I find that sad I guess. In other words what he does and what he plays is NOT 100% up to him if he has been socialized to find it unacceptable.

Sex is biological. Gender is a social construction. In my mind gender neutral parenting is simply refusing to buy into the socially ordained roles deemed appropriate for each sex, and marketed to us as "normal" and "natural" when they are anything but.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *leighi123* 
Oh and I just have my ds, and most of his friends his age are boys... I think it would be much easier to 'not have to think about it' so much if you had a boy and a girl, esp. if they are close in age b/c then toys/clothes could be shared and it would be easier for the kids to have options of both kinds of things.

I'm not sure what you mean by "easier". My oldest is a boy. He does have sisters, but there's a 10 year gap between him and the next oldest, so they really didn't have much influence on his upbringing, yk?

Toys I can remember him having that weren't "boy" toys (what an asinine concept - sorry if that offends anyone, but I really do find it asinine) include a baby doll and stick-on earrings. I know there were some others, but he's 17, and the details are a little hazy. I only remember him ever owning a very few "boy" toys (a truck and some toy swords and guns...and _I_ owned - and treasured - a cap rifle as a kid, so I have trouble calling this stuff "boy" toys at all). The _vast_ majority of his toys were "gender neutral"...arts and crafts stuff, and some musical instruments mostly. That was because that's what he _liked_. But, you know...when he expressed an interest in earrings and nail polish, it was just as "easy" to get those for him as it would have been if he'd had a sister.

I don't know what "gender neutral parenting" really means, either. I'm pretty child-led on toys and clothes. DD1 is much more of a "girly-girl" than I ever expected, in some ways. She likes pink and sparkly and such. But, aside from princesses, her other "big love" in life is spiders. I don't think that's considered a "girl" interest.

Mind you, I will admit that ds2 probably wouldn't have showed up at a neighbour's birthday party - last minute invitation - last summer in a Belle dress if he didn't have a sister. I'll have to give you that one. (It was especially great, because ds2 is very stereotypically a "real boy", in many ways, and most of the neighbours think of him that way.)


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
The problem with the term 'gender neutral' is that different people have a different idea of what it takes to be gender neutral. There are parents who don't purchase anything that can be associated with a gender in the name of being gender neutral, but what they are really doing is being non-gendered. There are parents who refuse to allow anything for their child's biological gender in the house in the name of being gender neutral, but they are still being gender specific.

Gender neutral is allowing your child access to things across the board, not limiting based on some preconceived idea of what is proper, or some preconceived idea of what is "sticking it to society". Most gender neutral children will likely fall on one side of the gender line when it comes to toys/activities or the other, but it is the side _they_ choose not the side chosen for them.

Gender neutral means that inanimate objects have no gender period. Dolls are not a girl thing and trucks are not a boy thing. They just things.

Using this definition, I'm totally on board. Just seems like common-sense to me.


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## PreggieUBA2C (Mar 20, 2007)

I think of people as occupying a range on a spectrum of gender from extreme masculinity to extreme femininity. I am somewhere in the middle and tend toward one side in some ways and the other in other ways. BUT, I am faaaaaaar more interested in just _being_ than in defining what way I'll be.

Our ds2 was the only one of our boys to have brought up gender issues ever; he noticed that in the stores, the 'girl stuff' was pink and sparkly and the 'boy stuff' was not. This came up when we went to choose a hat for his 5th birthday celebration. He picked up the pink sparkly one and then set it down and said, "But I can't wear this one." I asked him why not and he told me that 'pink is for girls'.

I was a bit shocked but treated it nonchalantly, and told him that colours and shine are not related to boys or girls. They are qualities of appearance, and that he can wear whatever he pleases. He ended up choosing a non-sparkly hat and I felt a bit sad only because he was obviously choosing based on what he thought he learned from elsewhere and not what he truly wanted (I supported his choice though, of course). I asked why he thought that, and he referred to how things are separated in stores. He also wanted to know more about why "girls have to wear pink."

After that we discussed these things because having not addressed it previously led to my son being convinced by marketing in stores!!!







We don't watch tv and avoid gender stereotyping in books and toys and other things, so they see this glaring separation when we are out, not when we are at home. We hadn't at all deliberately avoided the issue; it just hadn't come up and dp and I didn't think about it either, until then.

I would love to walk into a children's clothing store that had no girl side and no boy side, but just clothing. I don't have any issue with people- no matter their gender- choosing frills or sparkles or shirts with trucks or insects on them; I just don't see why they need be separated into 'gender-appropraite' sections. This is obviously cultural since pink is not considered feminine everywhere and frills and sparkles have many times throughout even western history been worn by both men and women. And I would love to wear shirts with insects and well-illustrated trucks on them! I was trained in technical and scientific illustration- those drawings appeal very much to me!

I do find a lot more non-gender-specific clothing in the boys sections though: stripes, checks, patterns and solid coloured clothing that isn't covered in pink. I don't care if my boys want to wear pink- that's fine with me. I just don't want them thinking that they are _not allowed_ to wear it or that they _have to_ wear it according to _others_. I also don't appreciate the idea in girls clothing that shirts and pants should be tight and short and body-revealing rather than loose and comfortable which is seen as for boys, at least from what I see in the clothing sections. And again, it is not upsetting to me if someone enjoys wearing tight, short, body-revealing clothing- regardless of gender.

For me, it's about freedom, and a major part of dealing with this cultural oppression of choice and freedom is to discuss what's going on and empower our children to make their choices in freedom through informing and equipping them with knowledge, understanding, and our support.

These pressures infect every area of human life through culture, so the best I can do is to deliberately provide the greatest opportunities for freedom for my dc so that they can live and just _be_. Just being seems to resolve a lot of these issues because what is essential remains while what is not tends to dissipate. At least that's our experience.

Since my ds2's fifth birthday (last August) and the conversations we had then about clothing and toys and stores and culture, his concern about what is 'gender appropriate' has dissipated with our continuing to offer a range of options to him and supporting him in his choices. Since then, he (and as always, the others) have enjoyed wearing sparkly things at times and then chosen other things at other times without pressure or concern.

As an issue, for now, it seems to be resolved. I'm sure it will come up again as they grow and we'll just keep dealing with it in all the ways it shows up. What else can we do? Helping them to navigate this sort of stuff (culture, life, expectations, etc...) is precisely what we have to offer our dc as parents, I think, so it's not all that strange and certainly not burdensome as a matter of relating, to be dealing with it together.









Though I am frequently irked by what I see being thrust on us by ads and marketing. I do find that tiresome and burdensome because it's a make-work project for me to add something once again non-essential to the guiding of my children. I don't enjoy feeling a bit like a forcefield or a shield against this stuff, which is why we minimise our family's exposure to it overall.

That said, we live in the wilderness on a farm, so we really do not deal with anywhere near the amount of marketing issues that most families do. Dp works with youth in group homes and it's amazing how much junk he has to sift through in order to reach them; these children are guided by marketing rather than parents, and the results are frightening- to us anyway.


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## Landover (Oct 12, 2007)

Quote:

Sex is biological. Gender is a social construction. In my mind gender neutral parenting is simply refusing to buy into the socially ordained roles deemed appropriate for each sex, and marketed to us as "normal" and "natural" when they are anything but.
Nope.... sex and gender are both biological and neither is simply socially constructed. If that were the case, you might have a lot more phobic parents who are able to influence and parent their child out of being cross-gendered. I think you meant to refer to the fact that sex in anatomical and gender is not necessarily so. However, saying that gender can be socially constructed indicates that being transgendered is a lifestyle choice and not something that is innate. That is a slippery slope and not one I want to go down.









Quote:

The problem with the term 'gender neutral' is that different people have a different idea of what it takes to be gender neutral. There are parents who don't purchase anything that can be associated with a gender in the name of being gender neutral, but what they are really doing is being non-gendered. There are parents who refuse to allow anything for their child's biological gender in the house in the name of being gender neutral, but they are still being gender specific.

Gender neutral is allowing your child access to things across the board, not limiting based on some preconceived idea of what is proper, or some preconceived idea of what is "sticking it to society". Most gender neutral children will likely fall on one side of the gender line when it comes to toys/activities or the other, but it is the side they choose not the side chosen for them.

Gender neutral means that inanimate objects have no gender period. Dolls are not a girl thing and trucks are not a boy thing. They just things.
I probably should not have posted as what I was trying to say was already said (that's what I get for not reading the thread). It is said very well in the above quote... thanks!!


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Landover* 
Nope.... sex and gender are both biological and neither is simply socially constructed. If that were the case, you might have a lot more phobic parents who are able to influence and parent their child out of being cross-gendered. I think you meant to refer to the fact that sex in anatomical and gender is not necessarily so. However, saying that gender can be socially constructed indicates that being transgendered is a lifestyle choice and not something that is innate. That is a slippery slope and not one I want to go down.









I probably should not have posted as what I was trying to say was already said (that's what I get for not reading the thread). It is said very well in the above quote... thanks!!

A-la Wikipedia for Gender:
"In the social sciences, however, it refers specifically to socially constructed and institutionalized differences such as gender roles."

Well shoot I'm a historian so there ya go. Good point about cross or transgendered folks though.


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## Smokering (Sep 5, 2007)

Slightly OT, but I had a wakeup call about girls' clothes recently. DD has just turned two, and all her clothes are either hand-me-downs or sewn by me. I have no particular desire to dress her _not_ like a girl, as it were - I like old-fashioned clothes, so she wears plenty of froofy dresses (and gains approving nods from old ladies who tell me it's So Nice to see a little girl in a dress... which always makes me feel vaguely uncomfortable!). But, here's the thing: they're not all PINK! I rarely shop, so the other day when I went into a department saw and saw the girls' clothes I was like "Aargh, my eyes!" EVERYTHING was pink, and not tasteful dusky-rose pink or pale pink - hot, aggressive, loud pink. Never mind the sequins and ruffles and "Princess" emblazoned wherever a word could be... it was just so monochromatic! And suddenly DD's wardrobe of dresses in grey and yellow and cream and green seemed extremely un-girly.









Same thing when I visited a friend with two pre-school nieces on Christmas Eve. The girls had just unwrapped their presents, and the PILE of plastic in day-glo pink and purple was... blatant, to say the least. (Actually I think all the adults were a little shocked by it - they'd each contributed to the pile, but hadn't expected the whole thing to be so... much.) The girls were wearing gaudy pink and purple tutus.

It seemed to make them happy, so I didn't exactly disapprove, but it did highlight how being out of the "buying zone" makes merchandise and clothing seem incredibly one-note when you see it up close. I didn't make a conscious effort to avoid "girly" toys and clothes, I just made things I liked, but didn't have my brain fixated on that screaming shade of pink. No wonder DD gets compliments all the time - people probably find her restful on the eyes!


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Pepto-Bismo pink. Maybe it's just a shade darker than that? But close anyway. It is a pretty awful color.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

We lived in Hawaii for a while. We shared a yard with another family who had one child. Her name was Carolyne, but in every other way, she looked just like a boy. So, I figured she was just one of those kids who preferred short hair and boy's clothes. (she was three at the time)

But, she was actually never told she was a girl. They wanted to raise her gender nuetral. And the only other child within a mile was a little boy. So, they were all each other had.

But, she was always attracted to pretty fabrics, and babies. She would paint rocks and shells bright colors and lay in the grass pretending they were people who were there to play with her. She was very girly, without all the girly things.

She's 26 years old now, still lives on the island and is what she calls "hot but not prissy". (not exactly sure what that means)

So, if it's done correctly, it can be done. I just don't like the message some parents send. (not carolyne's parents) that being a boy is somehow better than being a girl, and if you MUST be a girl, you should at least be as boy-ish as possible.


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## Landover (Oct 12, 2007)

Quote:

A-la Wikipedia for Gender:
"In the social sciences, however, it refers specifically to socially constructed and institutionalized differences such as gender roles."
This does not say that gender is socially constructed.

My point is that most folks believe that people come with anatomical parts and then a separate gender identity. Most of the time those things match up, and sometimes they do not. I am not sure anyone wants to say that when they don't match up it is because of a socially constructed situation. Yes, gender may be a social construction by definition, but not gender identification. If you start saying that gender is socially constructed then then you are making the argument for not allowing same sex couple adoption, etc.









I don't think it is likely that you can influence a person who doesn't "match" to do so by buying them a shirt with a dinosaur anymore then the other way around.... It is kind of the flip of the argument.

I will continue to allow my kiddos to know what gender they are, and to embrace their interests and their gender.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Landover* 
Why on earth would you want to parent you child in a gender neutral way... you child is *not* gender neutral? This to me is akin to the whole... "We aren't racist because we don't see color... well, not seeing someone's color, embracing it, and loving it is racist."

My kiddos are stamped as either male or female and I want to celebrate the differences between the two based on that. Afterall, we are NOT the same.









Children are stamped with a sex when they are born. What their gender is, is not yet determined until they figure it out. Why should they be treated as if they all ready have a gender when they don't even know what gender is?

DS is male, that is his sex. We don't know what his gender is, we only know that he loves pink and baby dolls and the sort of attention that is traditionally given to baby girls. He doesn't want to be strong, or tough, or handsome. Right now he wants to be pretty, and sweet, and caring.


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## mamabear0314 (May 13, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl* 
I guess I'm not really clear on what "treat him like a boy" means? Are you encouraging him to do ballet now? I can tell you one thing though, and that is if you are reinforcing traditional gender roles than your boy is not likely to grow up to do ballet because that is not a traditional boy's activity. So for him to become interested in it would be unlikely, and I find that sad I guess. In other words what he does and what he plays is NOT 100% up to him if he has been socialized to find it unacceptable.

Sex is biological. Gender is a social construction. In my mind gender neutral parenting is simply refusing to buy into the socially ordained roles deemed appropriate for each sex, and marketed to us as "normal" and "natural" when they are anything but.

I don't think it's sad at all. I have young cousins (9-15, Girl is 9, boy is 12 and another boy is 15). The oldest boy dances, the younger boy and the girl do martial arts. They were never parented "gender neutral". They expressed interest and their parents got them involved.
I just think there are more important aspects to parenting than insuring they are not influenced by anything gender related.
I mean, the kids friends aren't always going to be "gender neutral" so they'll be rubbed off on that. If they watch TV they'll get it that way. Books. Etc.


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Landover* 
This does not say that gender is socially constructed.

My point is that most folks believe that people come with anatomical parts and then a separate gender identity. Most of the time those things match up, and sometimes they do not. I am not sure anyone wants to say that when they don't match up it is because of a socially constructed situation. Yes, gender may be a social construction by definition, but not gender identification. If you start saying that gender is socially constructed then then you are making the argument for not allowing same sex couple adoption, etc.









I don't think it is likely that you can influence a person who doesn't "match" to do so by buying them a shirt with a dinosaur anymore then the other way around.... It is kind of the flip of the argument.

I will continue to allow my kiddos to know what gender they are, and to embrace their interests and their gender.


The argument you are making does not make sense when regarding "gender" as meaning "gender role". Gender roles are certainly constructed; the expectations that go along with being a "girl" or being a "boy" are socially manufactured and change with time and culture. If biological sex does not match gender than that is because an individual does not follow traditional roles. That is their actions and appearance do not conform to what people expect of them because of their sex. I fail to see how this makes gender roles any less socially determined...it just means that those who do not follow them are sometimes considered deviant within a particular culture.

I totally don't understand the same sex adoption argument you are making.


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## Landover (Oct 12, 2007)

My point is that the gender someone chooses to identify with is not socially constructed. It is hardwired (just as sex is). That is my sole point. Yes, gender roles are socially constructed... not gender identification. If you want to argue that you can parent or influence a person into being one gender or another then go right ahead.

I personally think that is a very slippery slope. That slope leads to the type of intolerant thinking where people believe that two homosexual men who adopt a little boy are going to turn him into a gay man...

Quote:

Children are stamped with a sex when they are born. What their gender is, is not yet determined until they figure it out. Why should they be treated as if they all ready have a gender when they don't even know what gender is?

DS is male, that is his sex. We don't know what his gender is, we only know that he loves pink and baby dolls and the sort of attention that is traditionally given to baby girls. He doesn't want to be strong, or tough, or handsome. Right now he wants to be pretty, and sweet, and caring.
And... do you think buying him a shirt with a dinosaur on it would change him in any way? You not neglecting to tell him what gender or sex he is. My guess it that you do not make that distinction with him. You simply allow him to play what he wants to play and do what he wants to do. My point is this.... I do not think that buying a boy a dinosaur shirt makes him identify with being male anymore then buying him a tutu would make him identify with being a girl. They will be what they are going to be, and the best thing we can do is honor that.

By one saying that they are going to avoid truck shirts for their little boys because they do not want them to think they have to identify with the male gender is the exact same as someone else saying that they do not want to buy their little boy a play kitchen because they do not want them to identify with being female. If you believe the former it is the same as the latter in which the argument falls apart.

Just honor who your kids are and go with it... The rest is sticky and yucky.

Here is another interesting point to consider... Sometimes society tries so hard to go against gender roles that it creates the opposite effect. I went through eleven years of higher education to finish with a PhD and start a long anticipated career (because, afterall, I can have it all... right?). I started that high powered career, had my first baby, and longed to stay home. It took me a year to admit this to myself or my husband. When I quit my job I was ridiculed by my peers. I had always wanted to raise a large family, but I felt certain (because of the fact that I was told my entire life that I should shoot for the stars regarding my career because... I could have it all) that I needed a career. I am now happily expecting #3 and am a stay at home momma who wishes I would have started having kids earlier in life.







There are many arguments about how feminism was the worst thing that ever happened to women.


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## mamabear0314 (May 13, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Landover* 
My point is that the gender someone chooses to identify with is not socially constructed.

I personally think that is a very slippery slope. That slope leads to the type of intolerant thinking where people believe that two homosexual men who adopt a little boy are going to turn him into a gay man...

By one saying that they are going to avoid truck shirts for their little boys because they do not want them to think they have to identify with the male gender *is the exact same as someone else saying that they do not want to buy their little boy a play kitchen because they do not want them to identify with being female. If you believe the former it is the same as the latter in which the argument falls apart.*

Here is another interesting point to consider... Sometimes society tries so hard to go against gender roles that it creates the opposite effect.
There are many arguments about how feminism was the worst thing that ever happened to women.

















Especially the bold part.


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## kriket (Nov 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carfreemama* 
I do make a conscious effort to switch my gender references; as in, I don't default to calling everything "he" or "him." I read somewhere that you should try not to refer to your CHILD as only one gender, in case he/she doesn't identify with that gender. So if you have a girl, you would switch up calling her him/her. I haven't done that.









This is baffling me. I have been milling it over in my head and I can't get my brains wrapped around it.

English has a gender natural. (I am about to say something and I am aware of the underlying gender identification people assign, but that is a topic for another day







) We can talk about bridges, and don't have to say "Look at his supports" we can see "look at ITS support"

Are you talking about cars and boats being female?

I think switching genders when referring to things that do have gender (people, animals) would lead to confusion when children are trying to learn the language.

I know this is more about language influencing gender but language is a large part of how we connect with our world and each other


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Landover* 
And... do you think buying him a shirt with a dinosaur on it would change him in any way? You not neglecting to tell him what gender or sex he is. My guess it that you do not make that distinction with him. You simply allow him to play what he wants to play and do what he wants to do. My point is this.... I do not think that buying a boy a dinosaur shirt makes him identify with being male anymore then buying him a tutu would make him identify with being a girl. They will be what they are going to be, and the best thing we can do is honor that.

By one saying that they are going to avoid truck shirts for their little boys because they do not want them to think they have to identify with the male gender is the exact same as someone else saying that they do not want to buy their little boy a play kitchen because they do not want them to identify with being female. If you believe the former it is the same as the latter in which the argument falls apart.

Just honor who your kids are and go with it... The rest is sticky and yucky.

Here is another interesting point to consider... Sometimes society tries so hard to go against gender roles that it creates the opposite effect. I went through eleven years of higher education to finish with a PhD and start a long anticipated career (because, afterall, I can have it all... right?). I started that high powered career, had my first baby, and longed to stay home. It took me a year to admit this to myself or my husband. When I quit my job I was ridiculed by my peers. I had always wanted to raise a large family, but I felt certain (because of the fact that I was told my entire life that I should shoot for the stars regarding my career because... I could have it all) that I needed a career. I am now happily expecting #3 and am a stay at home momma who wishes I would have started having kids earlier in life.







There are many arguments about how feminism was the worst thing that ever happened to women.









We honour who our son is but not deciding for him who he is. If DS tells me he wants a T-shirt with a dinosaur on it, we'll buy him one. But we aren't going to automatically assume that is what he wants just because of what equipment he was born with. As it is, he doesn't like dinosaurs or trucks. He likes planets and stars, and airplanes, and flowers. He is old enough to express a desire for something or a desire to not want something. We honour that.

I think buying him a shirt with a dinosaur on it would be a waste of money, he'd never wear it.

As for talking about what he is, we won't tell him that. Like we did with DD we say "You have a..." not "You're a...".


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kriket* 
This is baffling me. I have been milling it over in my head and I can't get my brains wrapped around it.

English has a gender natural. (I am about to say something and I am aware of the underlying gender identification people assign, but that is a topic for another day







) We can talk about bridges, and don't have to say "Look at his supports" we can see "look at ITS support"

Are you talking about cars and boats being female?

I think switching genders when referring to things that do have gender (people, animals) would lead to confusion when children are trying to learn the language.

I know this is more about language influencing gender but language is a large part of how we connect with our world and each other









There are other aspects to gender in language too besides a specific person and inanimate objects. There is also the abstract reference of humans. I don't know if the PP meant this, but in our house gender pronouns are treated the same in discussion as they are now treated in formal writing styles. When referencing a person who is not a specific individual (think "he said" or "She did") then gender gets switched because "he" and "him" is no longer the default. Like "When one person eats shrimp *he* maybe fine, when another person eats shrimp *she* may have an adverse reaction."


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## Landover (Oct 12, 2007)

Quote:

I think buying him a shirt with a dinosaur on it would be a waste of money, he'd never wear it.
I guess my kiddos don't care about what they wear as much. I guess that might be the explanation for me trying to understand why the heck a dinosaur on a shirt would matter. I hear you saying that your son would not wear a shirt with a dinosaur on it because he likes flowers and planets better. My son isn't particularly a fan of dinosaurs, but he would probably never notice what the heck his shirt has on it.









Most of his clothes came from a good friend with a boy older than DS is. Either that or me being a fan of sales trumps him being a fan of any random thing.









It would never occur to me to ask DS about everything he wears or everything I buy him. He has never worried about it and just throws on whatever I lay out because he is too ready to run outside and play.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

this is an interesting thread.
i wanted to add that gender neutral parenting is also about more than clothing and toys. we know from many studies about how girls are treated in the classroom (when they are publicly schooled). typically, the social expectations placed with rigid gender definitions school or socially force girls to lose their abilities in math and science, as those are "boy" arenas. girls are socialized to be emotional, not show their intelligence, and exhibit manners to the point of being afraid to offend, even in situations of harassment or abuse.
conversely, our society teaches children identified as boys to refrain from showing emotion, to internalize any feelings they may have, to value competition and to respect some subjects in school more than others. once children reach a certain age and realize what is expected per gender norms, they do abandon their true interests in favor of ones that are socially approved. i've seen it happen. i've read a ton of research about how and why that happens. i know that the toys, the separation in the stores of clothing, the pinks and blues, the gender assignments of toys and tools, all of that helps to reinforce this. this is the social construction that other posters speak of. if you're interested, judith butler, among others, writes about gender theory. i would recommend further reading on the subject before dismissing the social construction of gender. the nuances of socially constructed gender go far deeper than you think.


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## Lolagirl (Jan 7, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *micah_mae_* 
I honestly think it's kind of silly. Whether or not you treat your son like a "boy" is not going to damage them. My son is a boy through and through. I dress him like a boy, I treat him like a boy. If he grows up and wants to do ballet or play music or something not "manly" we're not going to worry about it. We won't push sports if he doesn't want to play them. On the other hand if we have a girl who wants to be a tomboy, that's fine too. Let her play hockey (I did) and go hunting. I don't consider that gender neutral parenting, I consider it good parenting.
My son isn't gender neutral. He's a boy. So I'll treat and dress him like one. How he acts, what he does and what he plays with is 100% up to him.

I'm going to jump into this discussion because I still don't understand what is meant by "treat him like a boy." Where I come from, treating him like a boy means filling his head with lots of stuff about being tough and not expressing emotions, condoning violence and rudeness as a masculine trait, and lots of other negative messages about masculinity being the polar opposite of femininity. It assumes that boys can only play with gender appropriate toys like cars and trucks and tools and engage in gender appropriate activities like football and baseball. The corollary to this message seems to be that girls are told to be sweet and friendly and cooperative, and as we get older to tolerate bad behavior from our male counterparts because that is supposedly how men are wired.

My husband and I strive to raise our boys in a way that minimizes gender messages about who they are and how they should act because we don't want to limit their emotional and psychological development as they get older. Toys are toys, and they play with dolls and trucks and trains equally depending on their whims any given day. We don't put them in clothes that have sayings like "little bruiser" or whatever on them because we don't agree with putting labels on either of them. We let them experience their emotions without giving them negative messages about how that isn't acceptable boy behavior.

Of course both of our kids know that they are boys, not girls, but as far as they are concerned the difference is mainly that they have a penis and girls do not. It doesn't say anything about who they have as friends, or what games they play on the playground, or what they want to be when they grow up.

My husband is sometimes even more sensitive about this stuff than I am, because he remembers hearing negative messages when he was little about how he should act like a man (and not like a girl







.) It left a real impression on him and he doesn't want our boys to have such a hard time dealing with their own emotions (not to mention how they interact with members of the opposite sex) once they become adults. I happen to agree with him.


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## Litcrit (Feb 23, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *leighi123* 

With my ds I try to buy toys and clothes that a boy or a girl could use, yet dispite that and not watching tv, *he STILL uses his hand as a gun or a sword (while carrying a baby doll on his back)*.

That's exactly how I played (and I'm a girl)







. Well, I had toy guns and swords and used those abundantly.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
How about a whole different term. How about gender flexible parenting. Where the parent is OK with their kid loving tutus and sparkles and pink, whatever the child's gender is. The parent is OK if the child loves construction vehicles and every thing football and blue, whatever the child's gender is. The parent is fine if the child loves nature and books and yellow, whatever the child's gender is.

I like that.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Landover* 
Why on earth would you want to parent you child in a gender neutral way... you child is *not* gender neutral? This to me is akin to the whole... "We aren't racist because we don't see color... well, not seeing someone's color, embracing it, and loving it is racist."









I see three different categories: 1. sex: biological, the easiest of all to determine, though, of course, not always possible, based on sexual organs and chromosomes

2. genders as viewed by a society: to a great extent somewhat arbitrary constructs, though some aspects could be based in biology - which doesn't make them binding, only statistically plausible. E.g., testosterone makes one more aggressive and estrogen makes one more nurturing; many biological males have more testosterone in their systems than many biological females; therefore, there is some biological basis in the idea that many males are more likely to be more aggressive and many females are more likely to be more nurturing

3. a person's gender identity: something quite possibly hard-wired (but how? biologically, through the influence of intrauterine hormones? spiritually? I've no idea), developing partly through the courtesy of the gender roles / definitions given by society. We use these to help us find ourselves - I'll say I'm not very 'girly' because I don't like make-up and high heels, because I'll drink beer out of a bottle in a park but not a sweet cocktail in a fancy dress, because I've never liked dolls but have always loved guns and playing war, because my favorite colors to wear are black and army green, and because in any social situation involving older people I'll end up discussing politics with the men and not talk about cosmetics or cooking with the women, and because I'll always tell anyone what I think about an issue or analyze any person's argument logically and not what I feel about a situation or respond in such a way as not to hurt feelings. Not that any of these are somehow necessarily inherently 'male' or 'female' things, but I will use them to place myself on an imaginary bell curve in my quest for my sexual identity. I am a biological woman, heterosexual by orientation, somewhat androgynous in my gender identity.

I told my girl she's a girl (so - not extremely gender _neutral_ at all), but not what that should entail. She has all sorts of toys and plays with dolls and cars, guns and a play kitchen. She's much more 'girly' than I was (I refused to wear dresses at age 2, she loves them), though, and I accept that. We've accepted a lot of pink clothes as gifts and are too cheap to buy others, but my daughter's favorite color is green.


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## mamabear0314 (May 13, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lolagirl* 
I'm going to jump into this discussion because I still don't understand what is meant by "treat him like a boy." *Where I come from, treating him like a boy means filling his head with lots of stuff about being tough and not expressing emotions, condoning violence and rudeness as a masculine trait, and lots of other negative messages about masculinity being the polar opposite of femininity. It assumes that boys can only play with gender appropriate toys like cars and trucks and tools and engage in gender appropriate activities like football and baseball.* The corollary to this message seems to be that girls are told to be sweet and friendly and cooperative, and as we get older to tolerate bad behavior from our male counterparts because that is supposedly how men are wired.

Just because that's what _you_ think it means isn't so. "Treat him like a boy" just means I'm not treating him gender neutral. I don't go out of my way to make sure he's not influenced by, *gasp*, society! I don't condone violence in any gender and rudeness is not acceptable in our home at all. Corbin plays with dolls, cleaning "supplies" and stuffed animals. He loves music and dancing. I don't dictate what he plays with or what his interests are, for goodness sake. "Treat him like a boy" is just that.


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## Chamomile Girl (Nov 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *micah_mae_* 
Just because that's what _you_ think it means isn't so. "Treat him like a boy" just means I'm not treating him gender neutral. I don't go out of my way to make sure he's not influenced by, *gasp*, society! I don't condone violence in any gender and rudeness is not acceptable in our home at all. Corbin plays with dolls, cleaning "supplies" and stuffed animals. He loves music and dancing. I don't dictate what he plays with or what his interests are, for goodness sake. "Treat him like a boy" is just that.

That sounds fairly gender neutral to me LOL!

Where I come from being "treated like a boy" means all the things Lolagirl said, and worse.


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## InMediasRes (May 18, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Chamomile Girl* 
The biggie in trying to parent gender neutral is doing my best to not train my kid for any specific social role. I think this is huge, and is the reason why so many gendered clothes and toys bother the heck outta me.

We give lip sevice to the notion that girls can be anything they want to be when they grow up...firefighter, doctor, astronaut, palentologist...but then when you go to buy your girl a dinosaur shirt you HAVE TO get it in the boys section. Same with space themed stuff and firetrucks. Just the very fact that these things only exist in a section labeled "boys" is reinforcing the notion that they are not for your girl...and once your girl figures that our she is not going to want to wear them anymore. So then what?

Clothes for girls are usually themed simply "pretty" as if that is the most important role for a female. Flowers, kitties, frills, ginghams, more flowers..."pretty" is the role we are training them for.

I am hoping to instill my son (and future kids) with a sense of outrage over this. The social message is so duplicious it just pisses me off. I love to put my kid in purple (I personally hate pink...for anyone) and it ticks me off that I usually have to go to the "girls" section to find it. I have also noticed that the clothing sizes in the girls section run much smaller than in boys, so we are already training wee girlies that tight clothes are for them, and loose ones for the opposite gender. Sad.

There is obviously no such thing as "just clothes" or "just toys" IMO.

Yes my child is a boy. I suppose I cannot count myself as a strict gender neutral parent because I acknowledge that. BUT just because he is a boy does not mean that he should have to conform to the pervasive social expectation of what being a "boy" means. In my perfect world he would never know what that expectation is. In the real world I can at least hope that he learns to recognise gender as a social construction and proceed accordingly. And feel outrage that someone is trying to pidgeonhole him based on the fact he has a penis.

Incedently there was a really interesting segment on NPR recently about sex differences. Worth a listen:

""Y" Matters
Neuropsychiatrist and author Dr. Louann Brizendine joins us to discuss her research and insights about the minds of men. How do the fundamental differences between women and men compare with the perceived differences? And just why does "Y" matter? Brizendine's new book is "The Male Brain.""

Link:http://www.kqed.org/epArchive/R201004071000

Just wanted to say that I agree with you, Landover. My biggest problem, though is not what we _say_ to our children so much as how we model gender. So far, all my kids have seen is mom at home doing the cooking and the cleaning, and dad bringing in the paycheck. We are much less rigid in our gender roles than some, but we are still living out a role that I don't want my kids to think is the only one. I think you hit the nail on the head when you say that girls get the message that they can't be firefighters because all those clothes are in the boy section.

I know that some of the ways I handle my kids is based on gender. I try not to, but it is almost subconscious from my upbringing. I fume whenever I hear my parents telling my kids that something is "for girls" or that my son is "all boy", but those messages were taught to me the entire time I lived at home. Undoing them is going to be very difficult. I catch myself sometimes talking to my DD differently than I would DS, or being less rough-house-y with her than DS, but I am striving to show both of them all the things I think are fascinating on both sides of the spectrum. For DS, that means he wants to adorn himself with pink, sparkly jewelry, and DD loves to push cars around the house and growl like a dinosaur. I will be interested to see how much this plays out as they age.

In short, I guess I could say it would be impossible to parent in a gender neutral way unless the parent is also gender neutral.

Also, I have a rebuttal on that particular author here: http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ide..._on_the_brain/ Apparently some of her research is unfounded. I have also read some of her articles, and she tends more towards the "men are hardwired to be assholes" side of things.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kriket* 
This is baffling me. I have been milling it over in my head and I can't get my brains wrapped around it.

English has a gender natural. (I am about to say something and I am aware of the underlying gender identification people assign, but that is a topic for another day







) We can talk about bridges, and don't have to say "Look at his supports" we can see "look at ITS support"

Are you talking about cars and boats being female?

I think switching genders when referring to things that do have gender (people, animals) would lead to confusion when children are trying to learn the language.

I know this is more about language influencing gender but language is a large part of how we connect with our world and each other









I find that I tend to gender things like stuffed animals, and even cars sometimes, but I am about equal between the two. I don't gender things like bridges. That doesn't make any sense to me. I don't think it includes referring to someone who is female/male in a gender neutral way. I agree that that would be confusing.


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## Lolagirl (Jan 7, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *micah_mae_* 
Just because that's what _you_ think it means isn't so. "Treat him like a boy" just means I'm not treating him gender neutral. I don't go out of my way to make sure he's not influenced by, *gasp*, society! I don't condone violence in any gender and rudeness is not acceptable in our home at all. Corbin plays with dolls, cleaning "supplies" and stuffed animals. He loves music and dancing. I don't dictate what he plays with or what his interests are, for goodness sake. "Treat him like a boy" is just that.

I still find this really puzzling, how is leaving your son to make up his own mind treating him like a boy? Not to be fecetious, but do only boys get to have such unfettered personal freedom?

Of course society influences our kids. In my opinion, it's our job as parents to try and mitigate any and all of the negative influences with which our children come into contact as they make their way through childhood. Issues like rudeness and violence are also influenced by our society, yet it sounds like you are willing to do what you can as a parent to try and counteract any of those types of negative societal influences, right? Perhaps you see no need to counteract negative societal influences that you do not deem to be tied to gender?

I haven't seen anyone say that boys and girls are exactly the same and should be treated as such. Perhaps that's where some of the knee jerk type reactions are coming from in this discussion.









Those of us who tend to fall into a more gender neutral territory make a point of not telling our kids they should be a certain way simply because of their sex. So no telling girls to stop being rough because that's acting like a boy, and no telling boys to stop crying because that's acting like a girl. No restricting girls or boys to only playing with certain toys or engage in certain activities that are traditionally tied to one specific sex/gender. The same goes for the clothes they want to wear, how they wear their hair, and even their life aspirations and, at least for me, who they might marry some day.


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## Landover (Oct 12, 2007)

Quote:

Just wanted to say that I agree with you, Landover. My biggest problem, though is not what we say to our children so much as how we model gender. So far, all my kids have seen is mom at home doing the cooking and the cleaning, and dad bringing in the paycheck.
Ahhhh..... but you are doing what you love and want to do which is the best kind of modeling when it comes to fulling your role within society. This is what I meant by my previous reference to feminism being one of the worst things to ever happen to women. Sometimes this stuff goes so far it just gets silly, and let's face it folks, you can only fight the good fight here... nobody is shielding their kids from it.

I got a terminal degree, got the perfect job, and then *finally* was able to admit that I want to stay at home with my kids. Because... the generation I was raised in constantly told women (and even pushed women) to be just like men, to have a career or they would not be fulfilled, to seek it ALL. Nobody ever said, or even acted like, it would be a perfect decision for me to strive to be a great wife and mother as my vocation in life.

Sometimes going the other way with this stuff can be just as detrimental.

As much as all of this stuff is great about wanting to use gender neutral language and only buy shirts with things on them that you kid currently loves... (which, for the record, I think dressing your DS in pink kittens would probably cause more social issues then it would solve







). The big picture is really about truly teaching you kiddo that they are free to pursue the life that they think will make them happy. Me playing devil's advocate a little is more about how, ultimately, I don't think that my son wearing blue and my daughter wearing pink (which I happen to dress my DD in constantly because, quite frankly, she looks like a flippin' angel in pink) is going to fundamentally change who they are or what they think they can be. It is about me being real and honest with my kiddos when I tell them that they should seek, do, and embrace what their definition of happy is.

Interestingly, me making absolutely no attempt to care that my son is wearing a shirt that says, "Daddy's little slugger" has made clothes a serious non-issue in our home. I happen to love that. Whereas, paying very close attention clothing seems to have made the clothing one wears some sort of expression of who you are in other homes.

Funnily enough... reading this thread, most people on here strive to parent the same way. It has devolved into a typical MDC semantic debate.


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## mamabear0314 (May 13, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lolagirl* 
I still find this really puzzling, how is leaving your son to make up his own mind treating him like a boy? Not to be fecetious, but do only boys get to have such unfettered personal freedom?

Of course society influences our kids. In my opinion, it's our job as parents to try and mitigate any and all of the negative influences with which our children come into contact as they make their way through childhood. Issues like rudeness and violence are also influenced by our society, yet it sounds like you are willing to do what you can as a parent to try and counteract any of those types of negative societal influences, right? *Perhaps you see no need to counteract negative societal influences that you do not deem to be tied to gender?*

I haven't seen anyone say that boys and girls are exactly the same and should be treated as such. Perhaps that's where some of the knee jerk type reactions are coming from in this discussion.









Yeah that's pretty much it.

What I find baffling is people not telling their kid what gender they are, not letting them wear "gender oriented" clothes, etc.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:

Here is another interesting point to consider... Sometimes society tries so hard to go against gender roles that it creates the opposite effect. I went through eleven years of higher education to finish with a PhD and start a long anticipated career (because, afterall, I can have it all... right?). I started that high powered career, had my first baby, and longed to stay home. It took me a year to admit this to myself or my husband. When I quit my job I was ridiculed by my peers. I had always wanted to raise a large family, but I felt certain (because of the fact that I was told my entire life that I should shoot for the stars regarding my career because... I could have it all) that I needed a career. I am now happily expecting #3 and am a stay at home momma who wishes I would have started having kids earlier in life. There are many arguments about how feminism was the worst thing that ever happened to women.
Well, it appears to me that "feminism" was good thing for you.







Why? Because you had the right and ability to make the choices that you did, whether it be PhD career person or SAHM.

I was born in the sixties and came of age in the seventies - the raging days of feminist thought and theory. I was never told that I needed to act like a man. I was told that I had the freedom to be who I wanted to be. That is what I got out of the feminist movement. Quite different, in my opinion, than being told what you have to do in order to be successful or happy. Sure, there were fringe groups (as in any movement) who called for the radical alteration of how women viewed themselves (i.e. act more like a man; sacrifice family for career), but I think that the true spirit of feminism was to free oneself from predetermined roles and inequalities (inability to own property; unequal pay; discrimination against people who are pregnant or who may become pregnant; unequal access to education; etc.). Feminism is not limiting, it is freeing, in my opinion. Of course people are going to disagree with me, but if you are doing what you want to do, then feminism has worked.


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## leighi123 (Nov 14, 2007)

This is what ds typically wears:
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u...0/DSC03789.jpg

(taken at the park last week)

This is the ski gear he picked out -
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u...0/DSC03726.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u...0/DSC03771.jpg

The easter shirt I made him (it has flowers on the front, on the back it says 'spring in brightly colored fabrics)
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u...0/DSC03742.jpg

People ALWAYS call him 'she/her', and I dont bother to correct them. If Levi wants to, he would, but he doesnt seem to care (maybe because he is used to it)


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## kcstar (Mar 20, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CatsCradle* 
Feminism is not limiting, it is freeing, in my opinion. Of course people are going to disagree with me, but if you are doing what you want to do, then feminism has worked.



















DS may have an interesting time of it when he starts school. DH is the SAHD, I'm a WOHM. So usually it's Dad doing the cooking, and the laundry, and watching him. Mom goes to work, brings home a paycheck. We try to clean house and work on the garden together. I'm usually the "fix-it" person, and I clean the bathrooms. DH mows the lawn.

As for the social construction that Hildare mentioned... it is not deterministic. You may be interested in a recent report on http://www.aauw.org/research/whysofew.cfm>Why so Few</a> women in science, technology, engineering, and math fields. One of the things that makes a difference for science and math is teaching people (especially girls, but it doesn't hurt boys) that intelligence is not fixed, but is a skill that can grow with practice/exercise.

There are some of us who stick with the STEM bug even when it turns school into a nightmare with few friends. Two years at a women's high school helped considerably. I work as an engineer.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *micah_mae_* 
Yeah that's pretty much it.

What I find baffling is people not telling their kid what gender they are, not letting them wear "gender oriented" clothes, etc.

We don't tell DS what his gender is because we know that gender is not determined by biology. It is a regular idea confronted in our house as one of our children's honourary Uncles is sometimes an Aunt. It would just make things confusing that you are either a boy or a girl and your parts determine that, when they see at least once a week someone who doesn't fit into that social construct.

DS does wear some very gender oriented clothes though, like shirt he had on today. It was very much a "girl's shirt".


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CatsCradle* 
Well, it appears to me that "feminism" was good thing for you.







Why? Because you had the right and ability to make the choices that you did, whether it be PhD career person or SAHM.

<snip>

Of course people are going to disagree with me, but if you are doing what you want to do, then feminism has worked.









And, if you're not doing what you want to, then has feminism not worked?

Feminism is, like most things, a mixed bag. Pretending it's been all positive for women does everybody a disservice. I know that I had more than one woman try to push me into things I didn't want to do (university for science, pure maths or engineering being the big one - while engineering had some appeal, and I loved math, I had less than no interest in going to university), because I "owed it" to all the women before me who had fought for my right to do that. How giving up my right to decide what I want from my life, to pay a debt to women who fought for my right to decide what I want from my life makes any sense is something I never understood, personally.

Quote:

I was born in the sixties and came of age in the seventies - the raging days of feminist thought and theory. I was never told that I needed to act like a man. *I was told that I had the freedom to be who I wanted to be. That is what I got out of the feminist movement.* Quite different, in my opinion, than being told what you have to do in order to be successful or happy. Sure, there were fringe groups (as in any movement) who called for the radical alteration of how women viewed themselves (i.e. act more like a man; sacrifice family for career), but I think that the true spirit of feminism was to free oneself from predetermined roles and inequalities (inability to own property; unequal pay; discrimination against people who are pregnant or who may become pregnant; unequal access to education; etc.). Feminism is not limiting, it is freeing, in my opinion.
re: the bolded part. I'm glad the feminist movement worked for you. I didn't get that out of it at all. I got that I owed it to "the sisterhood" to be what they thought I should be. As a "brain", I had no right whatsoever to "waste" myself on marriage and children, when I could be out there making waves in sciences and technology and/or climbing the corporate ladder. In fact, I was "letting all women down" by doing what _I_ wanted with _my_ life. Awesome.

I'm probably a feminist according to some definitions, but it's a label I'll never wear, because I associate it with a particular kind of...misogyny, interestingly enough.


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## mamabear0314 (May 13, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
We don't tell DS what his gender is because we know that gender is not determined by biology. It is a regular idea confronted in our house as one of our children's honourary Uncles is sometimes an Aunt. It would just make things confusing that you are either a boy or a girl and your parts determine that, when they see at least once a week someone who doesn't fit into that social construct.

DS does wear some very gender oriented clothes though, like shirt he had on today. It was very much a "girl's shirt".

I assume you're talking about being transgender?


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Landover* 
Why on earth would you want to parent you child in a gender neutral way... you child is *not* gender neutral? This to me is akin to the whole... "We aren't racist because we don't see color... well, not seeing someone's color, embracing it, and loving it is racist."

My kiddos are stamped as either male or female and I want to celebrate the differences between the two based on that. Afterall, we are NOT the same.









Agreed. I think people are thinking too hard about this.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Landover* 
My point is that the gender someone chooses to identify with is not socially constructed. It is hardwired (just as sex is). That is my sole point. Yes, gender roles are socially constructed... not gender identification. If you want to argue that you can parent or influence a person into being one gender or another then go right ahead.

I personally think that is a very slippery slope. That slope leads to the type of intolerant thinking where people believe that two homosexual men who adopt a little boy are going to turn him into a gay man...

Agreed again.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:

And, if you're not doing what you want to, then has feminism not worked?
Straw man argument? I'm sorry, but you're trying to turn my statements into something that clearly they were not.

If you're not doing what you want to do, then you should look at why you're not doing it...don't blame the feminist movement (qualifier: "you" means the general reader and not specific individuals"). Blame the individuals who told you that happiness and success can only be achieved in one way or that you were wasting your life by not following through on certain pursuits.

Quote:

Pretending it's been all positive for women does everybody a disservice. I know that I had more than one woman try to push me into things I didn't want to do (university for science, pure maths or engineering being the big one - while engineering had some appeal, and I loved math, I had less than no interest in going to university), because I "owed it" to all the women before me who had fought for my right to do that. How giving up my right to decide what I want from my life, to pay a debt to women who fought for my right to decide what I want from my life makes any sense is something I never understood, personally.
Point is, your right to decide was in place and you exercised that right. There is a huge difference between being told or encouraged to undertake certain pursuits and being forced to take on a pre-determined role. No one is telling you: "No, you are not permitted to decide for yourself because you are female or that is not your given role in society." I have had zealots of varying ilk tell me that I'm going to hell or that if I really love my country I would do "xyz." I take them for what they are: zealots. They're a pain to deal with but ultimately I'm responsible for my own choices.

People tend to focus on whole "sacrifice family in the name of career" mantra instead of where we are now as opposed to where we were 25, 50 or 100 years ago. Point is, feminism (as a general, long-term movement dating back to voting rights days) elevated women from second-class status to individuals with full rights. There was a time in our very recent history when women couldn't vote, women couldn't sign contracts, women were made to leave places of work when they were married or became pregnant, women were paid substantially less than men for the same work (still an issue in some places), lack of flex-time in the workplace (if one had to work), absence of the right to initiate divorce, the lack of right to seek redress for domestic violence, and the list goes on and on. There was a time when women couldn't run in marathons in the US (as late as the 1970s) - not because they were physically incapable - but because they were women.

That is why I say now: feminism has allowed me to do what I want to do. I'm not talking about financial obligations or what not that may force you to do something you don't want to do. I'm talking about the freedom to make your own decisions with respect to how you manage your life. I'm not disputing that the feminist movement over the years has been fractured and diverse, but to call out one aspect of it and then criticize the entire movement is a bit much. Without it, most of us would not have the choice to make life decisions on our own. That's why when I hear people say something to the effect that "feminism did more harm than good," I have to ask, in what way? Because it has caused us to feel insecure in our choices or that we're ridiculed for our choices? I'll take the freedom of self-determination any day over fear of what other people might think of me and my choices. We are all benefiting from feminism whether we want to admit it or not, especially in terms of civil rights, which I think is at the real heart of feminism.

Sorry to get off-topic. I'm sorry, Stormbride, that you were surrounded by people who wanted to make you feel inferior for your choices. I count myself lucky to have not been subject to such ridicule. As someone who has considered herself a feminist for a long time, I would never dream of undermining another woman's decisions based what I think is best. I think a lot of my peers are on the same page.


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## Landover (Oct 12, 2007)

The feminism discussion is a whole 'nother bag of worms, and I find it very interesting. I think that all me (and possibly StormBride, but I don't want to speak for her) are saying is that there are downsides to all things - even the ones that generally society sees as good. Do I think that the movement should not have happened, nope. Do I think that the pendulum swung too far in an extreme direction, sometimes yes. That is the only point. I was using it as an example of how things can be taken too far.

Quote:

We don't tell DS what his gender is because we know that gender is not determined by biology. It is a regular idea confronted in our house as one of our children's honourary Uncles is sometimes an Aunt. It would just make things confusing that you are either a boy or a girl and your parts determine that, when they see at least once a week someone who doesn't fit into that social construct.
Here is what I honestly don't understand... I see it being said that you are going to secret away the concept of your son's gender from him because you don't want to influence or confuse him. That argument is steeped in the idea that you CAN change or influence a person's gender identification (as you said it is not biological).

By indicating that your words (and for heaven's sake a shirt) can so easily influence a person into gender identification, you are making the argument for all of the crazies who try to influence their kiddos into *not* being a certain gender. By this logic, if my DS tells me later in life that he feels more feminine than male, all I need to do is change his wardrobe and buy him some football pads? Do you think that all of the dinosaur shirts or references to being a "man's man" could have made your DS's uncle into a man's man? My guess is no... so why do you think that simply calling your son a boy, dressing him in clothes that are generally for boys, and allowing him to follow his interests will turn him into anything other then what he is going to be?

I am not at all trying to be obtuse, but it seems to me you are throwing yourself into the camp of folks saying that we can change (or influence) a person's gender based on what we do... afterall, you continue to indicate that gender is not based on a biological entity.

I truly believe that the sex we are, and the gender we are, are stamped onto us and nothing we can do will change that. We can accept who our children are when they give us clear indications that there may be something that is not "matching up" but being purposefully ambiguous seems to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Lastly, and I am not trying to offend, but your sole purpose seems to be to prevent confusion or feelings of oddity. I have just got to say that I think that not openly talking to your kiddo about the fact that he is a boy, instead choosing to be vague and ambiguous, has got to be way more confusing. If your son lived with you in a bubble, maybe not. But he does not, he lives in a society with cultural norms and expectations. Instead, I have chosen to fully disclose to my son that he is male (gasp). I dress him in shirts that don such terrible things has 'homerun hitter' and 'tough as nails' all the while not paying much attention to it all. If he comes to me one day and says he doesn't feel at home in his body then I will support him and love him.

I just don't think that much of anything I do will change how he feels in his own body. People are who they are and I plan to let me son be just that. But I do not think that I need to be ambiguous, secretive, or confusing in order for him to discover who he is.


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## CatsCradle (May 7, 2007)

Quote:

The feminism discussion is a whole 'nother bag of worms, and I find it very interesting. I think that all me (and possibly StormBride, but I don't want to speak for her) are saying is that there are downsides to all things - even the ones that generally society sees as good. Do I think that the movement should not have happened, nope. Do I think that the pendulum swung too far in an extreme direction, sometimes yes. That is the only point. I was using it as an example of how things can be taken too far.
Thanks for the clarification. I don't disagree with either you or Stormbride that there are negatives (I recognize that), but there is a lot of chatter out there that feminism supposedly destroyed the "family" or was a detriment to women, when there are so many positive aspects of it that we take for granted. It just makes me bristle because I think it is a convenient scapegoat for more complex problems and issues in our society.

Okay, I won't say anymore. The whole "gender" discussion seems intertwined with this but I'm sorry I got off topic.


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## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

Quote:

We don't tell DS what his gender is because we know that gender is not determined by biology.
I have known two people who are transgendered (both went from male to female through surgery). Both women knew from a very young age that there was something "wrong" with how they felt and what equipment they had. So I do get your point here.

For these two individulas their gender clearly was different from their physical appearance.

Where you lose me is the idea that had their parents been ambiguous about their gender they would somehow have been less confused. Not the case at all. Both men could have grown up wearing nothing but jock straps and muscle tees and they would still have been women waiting to get out. Biologically they were born women. Physically they weren't.

So maybe you mean that the equipment we have doesn't always determine our gender.


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## mamabear0314 (May 13, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *betsyj* 
I have known two people who are transgendered (both went from male to female through surgery). Both women knew from a very young age that there was something "wrong" with how they felt and what equipment they had. So I do get your point here.

For these two individulas their gender clearly was different from their physical appearance.

*Where you lose me is the idea that had their parents been ambiguous about their gender they would somehow have been less confused. Not the case at all.* Both men could have grown up wearing nothing but jock straps and muscle tees and they would still have been women waiting to get out. Biologically they were born women. Physically they weren't.

So maybe you mean that the equipment we have doesn't always determine our gender.

Exactly, if someone is transgendered, they're going to be that way regardless of how they were parented.
But I guess if other parents find this to be important enough to worry about, to each their own.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Never mind...this is one area where I'm either truly out of step with almost everybody, or simply totally unable to express myself clearly.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *micah_mae_* 
Exactly, if someone is transgendered, they're going to be that way regardless of how they were parented.
But I guess if other parents find this to be important enough to worry about, to each their own.









That's why we don't label DS based on his equipment. It has nothing to do with preventing or propagating it. It has to do with him learning early on that how _he_ feels is more important then what society tells him he is. That dressing like a girl doesn't make you a girl and having a penis doesn't make you a boy.

I would say that knowing why there is a discomfort with one's physical self and knowing that it is normal to be that way is emotionally more helpful than growing up being told you're a boy when you don't feel like a boy.

DS is probably not transgendered, but if he is he deserves the right to know that at least with in his family he has the final say in what gender he is.


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## aidanraynesmom (Jun 12, 2008)

Anyone read Why Gender Matters by Leonard Sax?

The guy lost me about 2/3 the way through when he proposed scheduling bf babies and advocating corporal punishment (even going so far as to say it was _necessary_ to effectively parent a boy).

It makes me question his credibility because of those sentiments, but up until that point I thought he really made tons of sense. It would allow for the notion that equipment doesn't make gender (even though it never comes out to say that).

Very interesting read. Just thought I'd throw that out there.


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

So I think the crux of the issue is, is gender merely a societal construct or is it biological?


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

What makes a gender is a social construct. What tells us our gender is a psychological/emotional/cognitive identification. Sex is biological.


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## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

Quote:

What makes a gender is a social construct.
Sure. But it isn't 100% a social construct. There are real differences that exist.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *betsyj* 
Sure. But it isn't 100% a social construct. There are real differences that exist.

Are there? Are there things that are _only_ present in one gender and never in the other? Or are they just things you are more likely to see in one gender over the other because it's encouraged?


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
Are there? Are there things that are _only_ present in one gender and never in the other? Or are they just things you are more likely to see in one gender over the other because it's encouraged?

I do believe so that there are differences between the genders, and that sex and gender are fundamentally linked. I'm having a hard time finding the words to explain how I understand it though in purely logical terms without getting into theology somewhat...so I hope others can jump in. In the meantime, I'm doing some research.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *betsyj* 
Both men could have grown up wearing nothing but jock straps and muscle tees and they would still have been women waiting to get out. Biologically they were born women. Physically they weren't.

Yes, but by not sending the message the muscle tees and trucks are appropriate (and dresses and dolls are not), we may be able to spare a lot of anguish. If you aren't telling your child, just because he has a penis- "You are a boy! This is what boys do!", that child will hopefully be a least a little bit less distressed if it so happens that 'he' is really "she".


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## Shellie (Dec 29, 2003)

I have two boys and two girls. I try to treat them the same in that I try to meet their individual needs and not base my response on their gender.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Landover* 

Here is what I honestly don't understand... I see it being said that you are going to secret away the concept of your son's gender from him because you don't want to influence or confuse him. That argument is steeped in the idea that you CAN change or influence a person's gender identification (as you said it is not biological).

By indicating that your words (and for heaven's sake a shirt) can so easily influence a person into gender identification, you are making the argument for all of the crazies who try to influence their kiddos into *not* being a certain gender. By this logic, if my DS tells me later in life that he feels more feminine than male, all I need to do is change his wardrobe and buy him some football pads? Do you think that all of the dinosaur shirts or references to being a "man's man" could have made your DS's uncle into a man's man? My guess is no... so why do you think that simply calling your son a boy, dressing him in clothes that are generally for boys, and allowing him to follow his interests will turn him into anything other then what he is going to be?


here's my take on this. whether or not one can "change" gender or influence it, by impressing upon a child concepts like "boys do this- you are a boy" or "girls do this but not this," etc. whether the ideas are impressed verbally, through society's reinforcement of stereotypes through clothing and toys, or in many other subtle and not-so-subtle ways, when a child receives those messages, that child will be impacted. that child may suppress inclinations and desires and be limited in choices. it's not as simple as someone "causing" the child to express a particular gender. it's more of a situation where a child will outwardly express a socially approved, lesser version of the child's true and authentic self.
see what i mean?
think about this- have you ever been in a situation where someone made you self conscious to the point you behaved in a different way than you normally would were you not being judged? for example, if you are a meat eater, did you order the salad because you were with vegetarian friends when you really wanted a burger? think about that feeling and multiply it by a thousand, and imagine how a child is going to react and how that child could possibly - for example- pursue his dream of dancing the ballet when "everyone knows" that ballet is for children identified as girls.
all the pink tshirts tell him so. all the models he sees on television tell him so. his friends and family members may have consciously or unconsciously steered him towards something else every time he tried to dance-- or if he did put on his sister's ballet shoes, when he went out in public, people made comments (and not necessarily discouraging ones) that made it clear to him he was doing something unusual and not socially normal.
it takes more strength and support than most people have to make defiant choices like that.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *coffeegirl* 
I do believe so that there are differences between the genders, and that sex and gender are fundamentally linked. I'm having a hard time finding the words to explain how I understand it though in purely logical terms without getting into theology somewhat...so I hope others can jump in. In the meantime, I'm doing some research.









I've heard all the differences that are supposed to exist between genders and know at least one "exception" for all of them. So while I do believe there are differences between one child of one gender and another child of another gender, I don't believe there are differences between genders.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hildare* 
here's my take on this. whether or not one can "change" gender or influence it, by impressing upon a child concepts like "boys do this- you are a boy" or "girls do this but not this," etc. whether the ideas are impressed verbally, through society's reinforcement of stereotypes through clothing and toys, or in many other subtle and not-so-subtle ways, when a child receives those messages, that child will be impacted. that child may suppress inclinations and desires and be limited in choices. it's not as simple as someone "causing" the child to express a particular gender. it's more of a situation where a child will outwardly express a socially approved, lesser version of the child's true and authentic self.
see what i mean?
think about this- have you ever been in a situation where someone made you self conscious to the point you behaved in a different way than you normally would were you not being judged? for example, if you are a meat eater, did you order the salad because you were with vegetarian friends when you really wanted a burger? think about that feeling and multiply it by a thousand, and imagine how a child is going to react and how that child could possibly - for example- pursue his dream of dancing the ballet when "everyone knows" that ballet is for children identified as girls.
all the pink tshirts tell him so. all the models he sees on television tell him so. his friends and family members may have consciously or unconsciously steered him towards something else every time he tried to dance-- or if he did put on his sister's ballet shoes, when he went out in public, people made comments (and not necessarily discouraging ones) that made it clear to him he was doing something unusual and not socially normal.
it takes more strength and support than most people have to make defiant choices like that.

DS is who he is and in our house, him and anyone else will know they are in a safe zone. They can be themselves and know we won't have a problem and we will stand up to anyone who does.


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## Landover (Oct 12, 2007)

> all the models he sees on television tell him so. his friends and family members may have consciously or unconsciously steered him towards something else every time he tried to dance-- or if he did put on his sister's ballet shoes, when he went out in public, people made comments (and not necessarily discouraging ones) that made it clear to him he was doing something unusual and not socially normal.[/QUOTE
> 
> Good point... so it seems like there is a huge influencing factor that is society in general that the kiddo is going to have to go against. I still don't see the point in not telling you kiddo their gender? Talk about things being seriously confusing!
> 
> ...


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Landover* 

Good point... so it seems like there is a huge influencing factor that is society in general that the kiddo is going to have to go against. I still don't see the point in not telling you kiddo their gender? Talk about things being seriously confusing!









My house is the same way. People who are open with their children about their gender can create the same atmosphere within their home.







Creation of that atmosphere is not at all predicated upon not revealing your child's gender to them.

Ah, but as a PP mentioned, every transgendered person she knows knew from an early age. So why bother telling someone their gender when you don't even know what it is? He will (and somewhat does) know what parts he has. Eventually he will know what parts his sister, aunts, grandmother and other females have. He will grow up know that it's not an "all boys have a penis and all girls have a vulva." He will grow up knowing that "most boys have a penis and most girls have a vulva."


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## colsxjack (Dec 9, 2009)

Wow. There are so many comments on this thread. I just read through the whole thing and have to chime in. I will probably have to come back again because at this point so many things are going through my head.

First, I will start by "coming out" as a female to male transgendered person. I do believe that gender is a social construct and I do not agree that this means that being transgender is a choice of mine. I can go more into this later after I have had time to process.

That does not mean that I only have "guy" interests. I am a guy that sews, bakes, does needle point, builds things, played hockey, etc. I think that my interests are gender neutral. But fundamentally I have always related to feeling like the gender that is typically pegged as male in society.

My parents raised me as fairly gender neutral. I was allowed to have my own interests and play with the type of things I wanted to play with. I played hockey at a time when less than 5000 girls in the country played hockey. I helped my dad work around the house and was taught how to use tools. I never thought about my gender unless there was something that tried to peg me as a gender. And no matter how much my parents allowed me to have my interests independent of my sex...I definitely was very aware from a young age about the social construct of gender. Since I as born in the female sex, when I got the message about gender it was a message seeing me as female, and I could never relate. Since I couldn't relate as female the default then was male. My interests are considered male in society and so that got me to relate to myself as male. I did not see myself in what society considers female and I did see myself in what society sees as male, therefore I was/am male. It has absolutely nothing to do with the hormones in my blood or the plumbing between my legs.

I live as a man, take hormones, etc, etc. Because I want the outside of my body and society to treat me as the gender that I feel.

One other thing I wanted to comment on. Someone as some point said that there are fundamental differences in male and female personalities. That testosterone makes one more aggressive and estrogen more caring, etc. Although studies may seem to point to that because men are typically more aggressive and women more caring, I think these qualities are also social constructs. Maybe it also just so happens that men are taught to be more aggressive and they also happen to have more testosterone than women. What I am trying to say is that I know A LOT of transgendered people taking hormone replacement therapy. I get a shot of testosterone every week. Although it has allowed me to grow body hair, and it has deepened my voice, it has not make me more aggressive. Increased sex drive yes, more aggressive absolutely not. And I can tell you that I now have a testosterone level consistent with an average male of my age as determined by regular blood tests.
I have yet to meet a transgendered guy who became more aggressive after testosterone or a trans woman who became more caring. Although I do know aggressive trans guys and caring trans women, but they are that way independent of their testosterone or estrogen shots.

I do not think that raising your kid gender neutral matters in the gender that your child turns out to be. I do believe that it will just allow your child to have open access to explore things that they wouldn't otherwise get a chance to explore, and give them a place where they can just be them. No matter if you tell your child what their gender is or not...society will and you cannot get away from it. In the world it is harder. But with family support, even your transgendered kid can go through life feeling normal and not like a freak. I wish this for my kids, and I am glad I got that. Even though I know society saw/sees me as a freak, I have never been ashamed of my gender and the way that I express it. No matter how much society tried to push me into a gender box, I was given permission to be myself growing up and that made the difference in my long term mental health.

I personally will tell my DD that she is a girl until she tells me otherwise. I will however not tell her that that will determine what she should be interested in or how she should dress or treat other people.

Whew.


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## betsyj (Jan 8, 2009)

Quote:

Increased sex drive yes, more aggressive absolutely not. And I can tell you that I now have a testosterone level consistent with an average male of my age as determined by regular blood tests.
Do you think that maybe increased aggression (just to name a "male" trait) could not be an issue because you have not always had a male level of testosterone?

My realm of of knowledge and reference in this subject is hardly breathtaking.







Knowing two people who made the switch has certainly opened my eyes to viewing gender in a different light and to understanding that while I always thought it was very black and white, it isn't.

But I always wonder about the biological tendencies I see-women's smaller waist to hip ratio, men's broader shoulders, bigger hands, more prominent adam's apple. Strength and endurance differences.

If you look at my husband and me from the back, it is clear who is the man and who is the woman. We both possess clearly defined physical attributes that define our sex. Or is it gender? Now I am so confused-it has been too long since I took my anthro and gender politics classes.

I love discussions like this. I love being able to think about the social and physical constructs I take for granted every day in new ways.

Thanks for chiming in Colsxjack!!


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Landover* 
Good point... so it seems like there is a huge influencing factor that is society in general that the kiddo is going to have to go against. I still don't see the point in not telling you kiddo their gender? Talk about things being seriously confusing!







]

Yeah, that's my main reservation about it. I personally think it could be borderline cruel to not give a child the clear answers and guidance they're looking for on something as fundamental as "am I a boy or a girl?"


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## Mulvah (Aug 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *colsxjack* 
...

I do not think that raising your kid gender neutral matters in the gender that your child turns out to be. I do believe that it will just allow your child to have open access to explore things that they wouldn't otherwise get a chance to explore, and give them a place where they can just be them. No matter if you tell your child what their gender is or not...society will and you cannot get away from it....

I personally will tell my DD that she is a girl until she tells me otherwise. I will however not tell her that that will determine what she should be interested in or how she should dress or treat other people....

For me, this sums it up quite nicely.


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## Lolagirl (Jan 7, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *colsxjack* 
I do not think that raising your kid gender neutral matters in the gender that your child turns out to be. I do believe that it will just allow your child to have open access to explore things that they wouldn't otherwise get a chance to explore, and give them a place where they can just be them. No matter if you tell your child what their gender is or not...society will and you cannot get away from it. In the world it is harder. *But with family support, even your transgendered kid can go through life feeling normal and not like a freak. I wish this for my kids, and I am glad I got that. Even though I know society saw/sees me as a freak, I have never been ashamed of my gender and the way that I express it. No matter how much society tried to push me into a gender box, I was given permission to be myself growing up and that made the difference in my long term mental health.*

Thank you so much for offering your perspective on this topic, it really is quite enlightening. The part I bolded above really resonated with me, because it really is so important to me to raise our kids to love and accept themselves no matter what path they follow wrt their sexuality. Of course I have no idea at this point what inclinations my kids may have in this department, so it seems even more critical to me to give them as much freedom as possible to decide that for themselves.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *betsyj* 
But I always wonder about the biological tendencies I see-women's smaller waist to hip ratio, men's broader shoulders, bigger hands, more prominent adam's apple. Strength and endurance differences.

If you look at my husband and me from the back, it is clear who is the man and who is the woman. We both possess clearly defined physical attributes that define our sex. Or is it gender? Now I am so confused-it has been too long since I took my anthro and gender politics classes.

Those are physiological differences. They relate to sex. Even then there is no promise that genetics or what's between the legs will mean specifically those features. That's why we use words like "androgynous" to describe some people, and why I know women who have, even from the front, been confused for men and at least one man who gets called "Ms." often enough even when wearing distinctly male clothing.


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## Landover (Oct 12, 2007)

Interesting!

Quote:

I do not think that raising your kid gender neutral matters in the gender that your child turns out to be. I do believe that it will just allow your child to have open access to explore things that they wouldn't otherwise get a chance to explore, and give them a place where they can just be them.
I think this says it nicely... As much as raising them in a gender neutral environment does not effect who they will be, I don't think raising a little boy and actually referring to him as a boy will either. It is all about how open and honest you are with you kids.

Quote:

I personally will tell my DD that she is a girl until she tells me otherwise. I will however not tell her that that will determine what she should be interested in or how she should dress or treat other people.
Perfection! This is exactly how it is in my home as well!


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## coffeegirl (Jan 1, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *betsyj* 
Do you think that maybe increased aggression (just to name a "male" trait) could not be an issue because you have not always had a male level of testosterone?

My realm of of knowledge and reference in this subject is hardly breathtaking.







Knowing two people who made the switch has certainly opened my eyes to viewing gender in a different light and to understanding that while I always thought it was very black and white, it isn't.

But I always wonder about the biological tendencies I see-women's smaller waist to hip ratio, men's broader shoulders, bigger hands, more prominent adam's apple. Strength and endurance differences.

If you look at my husband and me from the back, it is clear who is the man and who is the woman. We both possess clearly defined physical attributes that define our sex. Or is it gender? Now I am so confused-it has been too long since I took my anthro and gender politics classes.

I think it's sex, and gender. The two are linked. Sometimes, like a PP mentioned, someone of a certain sex may not have _all_ of the traditional physical aspects of that sex (like you mentioned, the broad shoulders, Adam's apple, uterus or lack thereof, etc.) but I believe these cases are considered medical anomalies, not in any way the norm or something that you can anticipate or expect. As I understand it.


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## colsxjack (Dec 9, 2009)

Physical traits such as wider shoulders, different hip to waist ratios etc. are mainly based on hormones and genetics. You will get body type from your genes. But the hip ratios and shoulders and jaw shape etc. are influenced by hormones.
There is no such thing as an "adams apples". The physiology of a male and female throat is the same. Hormones thicken vocal cords and create the look of the adams apple and deepen the voice. If a FTM started hormones as a young teen, they too would "grow" and adams apple. As it is, most on hormones will get a much deeper voice and their neck will change shape after hormones.

After being on hormones for awhile, a persons whole body shape will change. Fat distribution will change and create a male-to-female person to start having more rounded curves, wider hips, softer jaw, etc.
The hormones will also change the hip/waist ratio of female-to-male folks, change the angle of the jaw, skin and hair texture, etc. So yeah, physical attributes are determined by genes and hormones. So basically they are sex based and not gender based.

*Sex is the physical aspects of a person being male or female. Gender is the behavioural aspects of male or female.* Sex is based in biology and gender is a social construct. What it means to be male and female is different all over the world and the way males and females act and interact are different all over the world. This is based on how society trains males and females to act, dress, react, etc. A social construct.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Kids don't grow up in a vacuum--you have to counteract all of the negative messages other people are giving them about their gender. So I aim for "gender appropriate" parenting, rather than merely "gender neutral."

Also, child psychology tells us that gender identity is really important in young children, so it would be damaging to not give that to a child. If he/she wants to change that later, then of course that's fine. But withholding it altogether is cruel, IMHO.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

I've only skimmed the first couple of pages, but ITA that, like everything, it's easy to get carried away and take it over the top. Let your kids lead with their interests, and it will be okay in the end, IMO.

I didn't sweat it when my son wanted to cook with me (and he is an excellent cook & baker now! His dorm mates are going to LOVE him!), nor when my daughter wanted me to teach her how to slide (she played baseball with the boys, and was better than most of them). And vice-versa. I suspect it had less to do with what they wore or played with, and more to do with the fact that, as the sole day-to-day parent, they have seen me do it all. From cooking and laundry, to basic car and home repair. I kiss boo-boos but will tell them to suck it up when it's appropriate. There's no such thing as a "man's" job or a "woman's" job in our home. There's just stuff that needs doing.

They're both their own people. Both are secure in their gender identities, w/o needing to flaunt it. A is known for giving "free hugs" in school (every Wednesday!) and "spinning" as he runs around the field in PE, but also stands up as a man. C can get down and dirty with the best of the guys (and kick most of their rears), and turn around and get soft and pretty (since when did "pretty" turn into a dirty word?) and, yes, girly. I say - good for them! They're comfortable with themselves in their entirety, and don't have to pretend one is better than the other.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mtiger* 
A is known for giving "free hugs" in school (every Wednesday!)....

I just had to laugh when I saw this. DS1 had posts on his facebook around Christmas, reminding everyone to see him at school to collect their "Christmas hug". That was the only time I'd seen someone give out "free hugs". I mean...I had a friend in school who hugged people all the time, but she didn't talk about "giving out" hugs, yk?


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