# The BEST gun toy! Update!



## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

I absolutley LOVE this

I am not real keen on toy guns, but dh and I disagree and so I love this toy because its not like random "bang bang youre dead" you actually shoot the gun at a log with plastic bottles on it and they fly up in the air and break in half when shot.

Its great. Ds has been playing with it all day long.

Update: My dh has decided he would actually like to own a real gun-and I asked the gun store guy if he had information about safety with children and he said absolutley NO toy guns while having a real one in the house. I am still nervous about the real one-I have a little experience with shooting one a couple of times, but it is pretty deadly. Though I am nervous, I do belive my dh is correct on gun education rather than anti-gun. So the cool toy is gone! (And I think it is fair I give my ds another $20 to go find another toy at the store, LOL...since he only had that for like a week.) Have a nice day everyone!








Jenny


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

My ds would love that. It's nice that it is more of a target practice sort of thing then a killing something sort of thing.

My ds has one toy that is a gun and a robot, each with sensors. If your gun gets hit, it vibrates and one of three lights turns on. Whichever device gets three hits first losses. It is a bit loud, though, but extra exciting because it is a moving target.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

I felt so unprepared for the gun thing. I thought my kids would be "peace loving" but it hit me hard when my child, who had never seen a gun picked up a spoon at age 2 and started shooting with it! I have resolved to be ok with guns as long as there is safety information alongside, including classes for dh and I. In fact, I think its safer than never being exposed to a gun at all! I cant imagine what my kid would do if he found a gun at his friends house and he had no idea how dangerous they are.


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## anjanetteopal (Jul 12, 2007)

That website is just fun all around.


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## Juvysen (Apr 25, 2007)

oh my gosh! That's WAAAAY better than a "bang bang you're dead" game! I would actually consider getting that.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
I felt so unprepared for the gun thing.

My having 5 brothers was great preparation for raising a son. Guns, fire, fireworks, etc. Since my brothers are now all sweet adults who don't go around shooting things or burning down buildings, I am able to not overly worry about my ds doing those things.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

yeah, still could never buy any form of gun or allow my DS to own a toy like that.


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## Brilliantmama (Sep 28, 2006)

I wouldn't feel good about that in my home either.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Sorry, I still think that the "best" gun toy is no gun toy.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
Sorry, I still think that the "best" gun toy is no gun toy.









Please don't ever apoligize for that statement.


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## swimswamswum (Oct 26, 2005)

I'm also of the opinion that the best gun toy is no gun toy. I will not encourage my children to glorify violence.


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## meganeilis (Mar 12, 2006)

Guns are tools, in and of themselves there is nothing about them that glorifies violence. Condemning war games is one thing, but looking down your nose at target shooting is just silly.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

As my ds says, "Mo-om, it's just pretend!"









One of the reason I like gun toys over toy swords (which many anti gun mamas don't mind) is that the children are much less likely to accidently hurt each other. They stand far away from each other and yell "bang" rather than standing near each other swinging sticks. Works for me.


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## princesstutu (Jul 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meganeilis* 
Guns are tools, in and of themselves there is nothing about them that glorifies violence. Condemning war games is one thing, but looking down your nose at target shooting is just silly.









What an interesting definition of "silly".

Guns definitely glorify violence. Otherwise, we wouldn't need the speed and loudness of them.

Swords are sexy, so I only let my sons play with _them_.







:


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## princesstutu (Jul 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom* 
They stand far away from each other and yell "bang" rather than standing near each other swinging sticks.

I'm thinking you could teach them to do that same thing with sticks.

But, then...I'm simply anti-gun. Standing far from people, hurting them (pretend or otherwise) is not on my list of things to encourage in my kids.

If they're going to be encouraged to hurt ppl, they can at least look them in the eyes while they do it.


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Another vote for the "no such thing as a good gun toy" camp.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *princesstutu* 
I'm thinking you could teach them to do that same thing with sticks.

In which case the sticks would be toy guns.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Those with an anti toy gun stance may find this interesting http://www.mothering.com/articles/gr...bang-bang.html


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## bobandjess99 (Aug 1, 2005)

Like the site says "I want one of those" LOL! Not sure I'd get one for dd though....


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

I have read that article and disagree wholeheartedly with it. I will not let my son play guns, nor swords for that matter.


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## bumperbee (Apr 7, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *princesstutu* 







What an interesting definition of "silly".

Guns definitely glorify violence. Otherwise, we wouldn't need the speed and loudness of them.

Swords are sexy, so I only let my sons play with _them_.







:

I don't get this at all... are you being facetious? It's hard to tell.

I don't get separating guns and swords, or bow and arrow... they're weapons, tools meant to injure game or opponents. Why in the world would one think that any particular weapon is any better or any worse when it comes to pretend play?

For the record, I have no problem with play weapons whether swords or guns.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meganeilis* 
Guns are tools, in and of themselves there is nothing about them that glorifies violence. Condemning war games is one thing, but looking down your nose at target shooting is just silly.

I agree. I come from a long line of practical hunters. We fill our freezers, we use every piece of the animal. As a matter of fact, my mother still has (and uses!) a set of bone handled cutlery they had made from a moose one year.

Guns are tools. A piece of metal and/or wood designed to shoot a bullet at high speeds. What's questionable is what that bullet is being used for, and I got news for you, a bullet can't make that decision. The person holding the gun does.

I don't see how guns glorify violence. Violence comes in all forms. Tonight my daughter got hit in the head with a plastic car. I've seen anti-gun people spank their children. I've heard of objects, anything from cars, to plastic spoons, to rocks, being used as weapons. Violence, is violence, is violence.. it doesn't matter _what_ object is being used, if an object at all.

I'm not anti-gun, but I am anti-violence. There IS a difference.


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
I agree. I come from a long line of practical hunters. We fill our freezers, we use every piece of the animal. As a matter of fact, my mother still has (and uses!) a set of bone handled cutlery they had made from a moose one year.

Guns are tools. A piece of metal and/or wood designed to shoot a bullet at high speeds. What's questionable is what that bullet is being used for, and I got news for you, a bullet can't make that decision. The person holding the gun does.

I don't see how guns glorify violence. Violence comes in all forms. Tonight my daughter got hit in the head with a plastic car. I've seen anti-gun people spank their children. I've heard of objects, anything from cars, to plastic spoons, to rocks, being used as weapons. Violence, is violence, is violence.. it doesn't matter _what_ object is being used, if an object at all.

I'm not anti-gun, but I am anti-violence. There IS a difference.

There's not one other thing on your list of possible "weapons" that you own for the sole purpose of causing injury or death.

Causing injury or death is violence.

Ergo, guns do equal violence.


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## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meganeilis* 
Guns are tools, in and of themselves there is nothing about them that glorifies violence. Condemning war games is one thing, but looking down your nose at target shooting is just silly.

This. I'd like own a gun for target shooting. I doubt I ever will, but if I did, it'd be kept locked separately from the ammo. So it wouldn't be a an option even for self defense. And I doubt live where I'd need to for protection from wild animals, and I don't hunt. So, no, it wouldn't be for violence.


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## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

*


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *polka hop* 
To... cans and bottles sitting on a log? Oh, the humanity.

The poster to whom I was replying was not using her guns for shooting cans and bottles on a log.


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## swimswamswum (Oct 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meganeilis* 
Guns are tools, in and of themselves there is nothing about them that glorifies violence. Condemning war games is one thing, but looking down your nose at target shooting is just silly.

Then I guess, according to you, I'm silly.









I don't care what an article says, I'm not allowing gun toys into my home.

I am not interested in raising fodder for the military or prison industrial complexes.

If my kids want to hunt, we can discuss that, but there's absolutely no way that I would ever allow my children to play with something that resembles a handgun.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jwebbal* 
I have read that article and disagree wholeheartedly with it. I will not let my son play guns, nor swords for that matter.

Just curious how you are going to stop him without shaming him if he really wants to pretend a stick, or his finger, or his penis is a gun? What about if he pretends a stick is a knife for cutting up something, then pretends a bigger stick is a bigger knife? How on earth do people control that (leaving aside why would they want to control their child's play)?

What about if your child wants to build a trebuchet? Would you deny him that fine physics experiment because it is a weapon for knocking down castle walls? (We built one out of tinker toys







). Would it be ok if he built it but then didn't try to knock down blocks with it?

I'm wondering how many of the anti-gun crowd have gotten through age 5 without their children (especially boys) playing with guns? I'm sure some have because I'm sure there are boys with a temperament that don't find guns appealing but most seem to.


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## bumperbee (Apr 7, 2007)

Oops... misquoted


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom* 
I'm wondering how many of the anti-gun crowd have gotten through age 5 without their children (especially boys) playing with guns? I'm sure some have because I'm sure there are boys with a temperament that don't find guns appealing but most seem to.

Yesterday we went to our county fair. There was a kid's ride with swings that were kind of submarine-shaped with two seats in each swing -- one facing forward and one backwards. Each seat had a black pipe attached that could be aimed at the other swings as a pretend gun.

Honestly, I didn't even notice the "gun" until after my 4.5 year old son was on the ride or I would have steered him toward a different one. As it started turning, he yelled, "Hey mom, what's this supposed to be?"

I had to TELL my son that it was a pretend gun -- he didn't have a clue because he's never been exposed to them. We don't watch tv or movies with guns. His preschool doesn't support weapon play.

I don't believe that making guns out of everything is innate in children. A child who has never seen or heard of a gun isn't likely to start pointing his legos and yelling "Bang, bang, you're dead!" And the idea of a child using his penis as a pretend gun is really nauseating to me.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *l_olive* 
I don't believe that making guns out of everything is innate in children. A child who has never seen or heard of a gun isn't likely to start pointing his legos and yelling "Bang, bang, you're dead!" And the idea of a child using his penis as a pretend gun is really nauseating to me.


Maybe your son is different from some other boys? They are not all the same, you know. My son was never exposed to guns and started shooting things with hangers at 2. We do not own guns, video games or have cable TV.
We do not watch any violent movies, even when DS is not present. He does not go to school or daycare, and his friends are all being raised in very non violent homes as well.

We are anti war pacifists, and it was very upsetting for me to realize that violent play was something that my DS was interested in. To this day I still have no idea where he gets the ideas for this type of play. But I have learned to work with him so that he has a healthy outlet for it without feeling shamed.

So count yourself lucky...it is DEFINITELY normal for young children, especially boys, even if they haven't been exposed to guns and violence, to start shooting things. Believe me, we are experiencing it first hand in my home.

Every kid is different, so even if your son isn't doing it doesn't mean that other children aren't.


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

I should probably answer the other questions in your post, shouldn't I? Sorry.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom* 
Just curious how you are going to stop him without shaming him if he really wants to pretend a stick, or his finger, or his penis is a gun? What about if he pretends a stick is a knife for cutting up something, then pretends a bigger stick is a bigger knife? How on earth do people control that (leaving aside why would they want to control their child's play)?

I would imagine that there are lines you draw in controlling your child's play -- they're just in different places than mine. If, in your child's play, s/he wanted to fling sand in another child's face, I would imagine that you would ask him/her to stop.

I don't allow mine to pretend to murder others with a plastic, stick, knife or penis gun. If he were to ever do that, I would simply tell him that I don't feel it's appropriate to pretend to kill his friends, and I'd like him to stop. Is that shaming him?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom* 
What about if your child wants to build a trebuchet? Would you deny him that fine physics experiment because it is a weapon for knocking down castle walls? (We built one out of tinker toys







). Would it be ok if he built it but then didn't try to knock down blocks with it?

I haven't heard of any accidental trebuchet deaths recently. Or kids taking trebuchets to school to kill their classmates or teachers. I think I'm OK with the tinkertoy trebuchet.


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dubfam* 
So count yourself lucky...it is DEFINITELY normal for young children, especially boys, even if they haven't been exposed to guns and violence, to start shooting things. Believe me, we are experiencing it first hand in my home.

Every kid is different, so even if your son isn't doing it doesn't mean that other children aren't.

I'm not sure how to ask this without sounding snarky, but I'm going to try because I'm seriously curious.

If the desire to shoot stuff is innate, what did children do before guns had been invented? I get that they played weaponry of other types, but it feels like it's being implied in this thread (and others in have particpated in) that a child who had never seen a gun can make a shooting device out of a hanger or pb&j sandwich.

I totally get that children have aggression and will play aggressively. My son has definitely done stuff like hit the dog and crash cars around. But make a gun up out of his imagination?


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swimswamswum* 
Then I guess, according to you, I'm silly.









I don't care what an article says, I'm not allowing gun toys into my home.

I am not interested in raising fodder for the military or prison industrial complexes.

If my kids want to hunt, we can discuss that, but there's absolutely no way that I would ever allow my children to play with something that resembles a handgun.









:
I love a hippy. I totally feel ya...









My dh convinced me that when children arent exposed to such things, they are more curious. If my son found a gun, I want him to know how dangerous it is. I certainly dont think everyone whos house he plays at is going to reveal to me if they have a gun in the house if I ask so I agree with dh that teaching him gun safety would be the safest thing to do.

That has nothing to do with the anti military thing though, thats just our stance on gun safety so our kid doesnt get hurt wwith a found gun or something.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *polka hop* 
To... cans and bottles sitting on a log? Oh, the humanity.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *meganeilis* 
Condemning war games is one thing, but looking down your nose at target shooting is just silly.

Most of condescending and "looking down on" posts in this thread are from those who would buy a toy gun for their child. No one said you or others were bad people they said that they would not buy a toy gun for *their* child. I don't see the point in calling a person silly because of their own personal parenting choices about the type of toy they allow in their own home.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *l_olive* 

I don't believe that making guns out of everything is innate in children. A child who has never seen or heard of a gun isn't likely to start pointing his legos and yelling "Bang, bang, you're dead!" And the idea of a child using his penis as a pretend gun is really nauseating to me.


my son did. At age 2 1/2 he had never been out of my sight and he started shooting a spoon.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Wow there is so much I could say. If my daughter wanted to pretend play with pretend guns, I would allow it -- we don't restrict play or forms of play here so long as everyone is a willing participant in said game and feels respected -- for instance I would not be cool with my daughter pretending to "shoot" someone who felt upset/scared/bothered/disrespected or who didn't want to participate in the game -- but that has nothing to do with a pretend gun and everything to do with respect.

I am a peace-lovin' pro-peace pacifist who is not a fan of violence but I am also evolved enough to know that an object only holds as much power to harm as the person holding the object has intention to harm. The exception being accidental shootings and no matter how much you protect your children (or think you are), when they get to a certain age you will not know who has access to what in their world so it is probably wise to have an open discussion regarding guns and what to do if they encounter one. Gee, what an allure it must be to be confronted with something your parents have built up over so many years to be a huge taboo that you could never explore in a safe, pretend environment. It *may possibly* be the reason most accidental shootings involve a child finding a parents' hidden firearm that they were never permitted to know about or explore (I don't mean physically exploring a gun, but rather exploring the issue of guns). You rarely encounter an accidental shooting situation in a more rural environment (not that it is unheard of) because typically children have a healthy respect of fireams at an early age... pretend gun play is less restricted, target practice (and hunting, though I am not a fan -- we are vegetarians) are more often a way of life (their family and neighbors are more likey to do it etc)....

My husband grew up on an 80 acre farm and had guns his whole life. You wouldn't know it to look at him, he is a gentle musician who is a peace -lovin', pacifist hippy himself -- but he is very much pro - (the right to have) firearms...

I can't believe certain people are suggesting that school shootings and the like are a result of allowing children to pretend gun-play or as a result of a parents' *right to bear arms* stance? More likely and more realistically, those events have vey little to do with "guns" and so much more to do with a culmination of a childhood of not feeling heard, of bullying, of depression or mental illness -- so many factors... and to just say, well sheesh if there were no guns stuff like that would never happen is, imo a very myopic and limited view and presents (imo) more of a set up for perpetuation of violence because the root problem is not addressed and an object of metal and lead becomes the scapegoat for a society who wants so desperately for *something* to blame rather than looking at their participation in a negative situation that led someone to feel that violence was their only way out. Pointing the finger at guns is easier than self examination I suppose.


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## MamabearTo4 (May 31, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
Sorry, I still think that the "best" gun toy is no gun toy.










Me, too.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

You can't tell me that kids just pretend to shoot at targets and that they don't ever pretend to shoot each other.

If kids never pretend to shoot each other, then there is probably no problem (in my eyes) with pretend guns. But if they pretend to shoot each other, ever, then that's treading on very thin ice because at some point, they might blur the lines between pretend and real. That's the danger of guns. You pretend to shoot someone and they don't die... the kids don't see any consequences that the "real thing" has. They become anesthetized to what happens because NOTHING about guns is real until they actually have one in their hands.

Someone gets shot on TV, and a few weeks later, they see the same person on a new series... gosh, shooting doesn't really kill people. You pretend to shoot your friend and he gets up and goes home at the end of the day. Not real.

I don't have a problem with shotguns and such used for hunting purposes only. But, you don't go out hunting with a handgun. And kids don't "pretend" to go hunting... they play cops and robber, etc.


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
my son did. At age 2 1/2 he had never been out of my sight and he started shooting a spoon.

Well, OK then. I keep picturing little caveboys running around in their mammoth-skin loin cloths pointing antlers at each other and yelling "Kerpow, you're dead!"


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## Snookler (Sep 23, 2005)

The game looks overall beneign, and definately better than others out there. I would much prefer if it were a rifle, as, yes, very few people hunt for food with handguns.

I was raised in a rural, yet peace-loving hippie family. My mom was a total pacifist, but my dad had grown up in a family where hunting was the way food got to the table, and so I was taught to respect guns as a tool for hunting from a relatively young age. (maybe 8?) While may parents may have preferred to shelter me from the violence in the world, it was also during the cold war, and war was something that was discussed at school, and which other children role played, and so I was taught about the use of guns for self defense (think revolutionary war defense of property - not home invasion).
I was also taught that you never pointed a gun of any type at anyone unless you intended to kill them. This is a lesson that stayed with me and had a profound effect. I grew up with four boys, and while we played all type of games which involved strategy and battle, we never pointed a toy gun, stick, or anything that was intended to represent a gun one at one another ( just imaginary invading aliens mostly).
None of us joined the military, and none of us have ever been to jail, nor shot any of our classmates. But we all have a healthy respect for life and other people, and still enjoyed childhood play without being too burdened with the symbolism of it all.
Everyone should raise their children as they see fit, but I'm one kid who was raised with this type of play, and educated on the importance of safety and respect of life, and I appreciate the viewpoints that my parents instilled.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *l_olive* 
Well, OK then. I keep picturing little caveboys running around in their mammoth-skin loin cloths pointing antlers at each other and yelling "Kerpow, you're dead!"









I think some people forget how amazing our kids can really be. I know my son has never seen guns on TV, or has own or been given a toy gun. But at 3.5 he has played with many other children, and some where somehow he knows that the water gun in the outdoor play box at his buddy Troy's house is used to aim at people and make shooting noises. I wouldn't call that innate. I'd call that a moment somewhere in his life that he learned the behavior. it only takes one time. A TV commercial that breezed by so quickly you didn't even know they saw it. A video game display at Target playing while you stopped the cart to look at digital cameras, or another child that used their finger and pretended at the park a month ago. Kids are just really good and really fast at picking up stuff.

for me that is all the more reason I do use my power of the "mama veto" when it comes to toys and TV that I don't approve of in our home.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *l_olive* 
There's not one other thing on your list of possible "weapons" that you own for the sole purpose of causing injury or death.

Causing injury or death is violence.

Ergo, guns do equal violence.

Putting food in my freezer, food that feeds my family, is not "violence" to me, and I will not teach my children otherwise.

Does the fact that we hunt for food make us a violent family?







:

And for the record, I don't think anyone is "silly". I was simply agreeing with the notion that guns are tools, not that not wanting one is silly. I respect everyone's right to parent as THEY see fit.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess* 
so that makes it okay?

No, but you were saying that the only "looking down on" posts had come from the pro-toy-gun camp, and that wasn't true.


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

I think I may be one of the "certain people" you refer to, so I'll answer.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
I can't believe certain people are suggesting that school shootings and the like are a result of allowing children to pretend gun-play or as a result of a parents' *right to bear arms* stance? More likely and more realistically, those events have vey little to do with "guns" and so much more to do with a culmination of a childhood of not feeling heard, of bullying, of depression or mental illness -- so many factors... and to just say, well sheesh if there were no guns stuff like that would never happen is, imo a very myopic and limited view and presents (imo) more of a set up for perpetuation of violence because the root problem is not addressed and an object of metal and lead becomes the scapegoat for a society who wants so desperately for *something* to blame rather than looking at their participation in a negative situation that led someone to feel that violence was their only way out.


I agree with some of this... that school shootings (and other similar violence) occur from "a culmination of a childhood of not feeling heard, of bullying, of depression or mental illness -- so many factors... " but my contention is that these "other factors" include the cavalier attitude our society has toward childhood gun-play -- which is what we're discussing in this thread.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
Pointing the finger at guns is easier than self examination I suppose.

Condescension is dripping from this line. Thank you for your concern for my self-examination, but I've thoroughly examined my feelings on guns and gun-play. I simply have come to a different conclusion than you have.


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## Benji'sMom (Sep 14, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *l_olive* 
it feels like it's being implied in this thread (and others in have particpated in) that a child who had never seen a gun can make a shooting device out of a hanger or pb&j sandwich.


Or 2 legos.







I don't know how they come up with it or why, but I definitely don't let my kids play with guns, or have gun toys, and yet, they "play guns" somehow. I don't know how they know about it. Now, it's been a while since he did it. Not having the toy guns in the house might have helped not to encourage it, so that he forgot all about it. But as to how he came up with it in the first place, I have no idea.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

I would idealy (idealy!) Like to parent my kids in such a way that allows them to explore their own purposes for life, and if my son is interested in guns, I want to help him explore and navagate the subject as safely as possible. Far more people die in car accidents than gun accidents but I wouldnt prevent him from getting a drivers liscense.

I think alot of the "gun toy" issue is that its really scary to parents to think of their kid becoming a "killing machine" whether it be at school or in the military. Seeing our little innocent kids with such an intense object is very unnerving. It makes me squirm a little bit too. Again, I let him play toy guns because I am not going to tell him who he has to be. I let him decide on his own. I belive he was put here with a unique purpose and personality and if that includes guns thats ok with me, He's mine.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean* 
No, but you were saying that the only "looking down on" posts had come from the pro-toy-gun camp, and that wasn't true.

Gotcha, I missed the comment before. And no I don't think it was a nice thing to day. I'll edit my OP to say "MOST" instead of the only.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

We don't allow toy guns in our home for any reason. Our decision is based primarily due to safety. Because we own real guns, we do not want our children to perceive any guns as toys. We are vigilant on teaching gun basic safety and to have toy guns in our home, or to allow them to play with a toy gun, contradicts our efforts and is dangerous and counterproductive.
To those who allow toy gun play, do you have real guns in your home?


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Actually I was speaking of self examination as a society -the context clue that came before that statement was "for a society who..." I wasn't speaking of anyone personally in this thread. You need to do what you feel comfortable with and what works for your family but if it isn't working for your child, it isn't working "for your family". I just hope people can be honest about that.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Please refrain from using the term *"white trash"*. We do not tolerate any type of discrimination in the discussions, including but not limited to *racism*, heterosexism, *classism,* religious bigotry, or discrimination toward the disabled. Thank you.

DC


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
Actually I was speaking of self examination as a society -the context clue that came before that statement was "for a society who..." I wasn't speaking of anyone personally in this thread.

Thank you for your clarification -- I guess I was still using the "certain people" as my context clue.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
You need to do what you feel comfortable with and what works for your family but if it isn't working for your child, it isn't working "for your family". I just hope people can be honest about that.

May I assume that you mean a general "you" for the rest of this post, and not me in particular? Because if you're directing your hope for honesty at me, I'm not sure what you mean about something not working "for my family." Sorry if I'm being dense.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren* 
We don't allow toy guns in our home for any reason. Our decision is based primarily due to safety. Because we own real guns, we do not want our children to perceive any guns as toys. We are vigilant on teaching gun basic safety and to have toy guns in our home, or to allow them to play with a toy gun, contradicts our efforts and is dangerous and counterproductive.
To those who allow toy gun play, do you have real guns in your home?


This is a GREAT point, my dh would like to get a gun to go shooting at a range with. (He is not a hunter nor does he plan to kill anything or anyone, LOL)

Just as a stress reliver type thing. He needs a hobby anyways, LOL. and he is NOT a hippy.

So I think that you might be right, I am planning on taking some safety classes about it and mabye get some information there. I actually dont know where I am on that issue. We have never owned a real gun, but dh wants one!


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Why are you taking my comments so personally?

I mean in general, lots of parents make big pronouncements about needing to do what works for their family, and that is great but hypothetically speaking, if collective *you* don't want your child playing pretend with gun-like objects and your child does, it isn't working for your family... just for.. you.... general "you" that is.

I don't see why people want to mandate their children's imaginary play.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren* 
We don't allow toy guns in our home for any reason. Our decision is based primarily due to safety. Because we own real guns, we do not want our children to perceive any guns as toys. We are vigilant on teaching gun basic safety and to have toy guns in our home, or to allow them to play with a toy gun, contradicts our efforts and is dangerous and counterproductive.

This is exctly what I think.


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## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

*


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
Why are you taking my comments so personally?

I took your first post personally because I thought you had alluded to me personally.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
I can't believe certain people are suggesting that school shootings and the like are a result of allowing children to pretend gun-play....

As I stated in my response, I was that "certain person" so I replied.


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## tuansprincess (Oct 25, 2005)

When I look at that site I see a plastic molded toy that actually limits my childs creative play. I would rather see my child make a gun out of a stick, their sandwich, a spoon because it can later be a spoon or a wand or - whatever! But I don't like plastic battery (pun, hee!) toys anyway.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

:







:

I am mostly lost in this post at this point, LOL. I was just tryin to help some of you out who might be conflicted about toy guns and violence by showing you a non-violent alternative that is working for me!

Sorry if I am totally lost with all the "advocacy."


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## ryansma (Sep 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 

If kids never pretend to shoot each other, then there is probably no problem (in my eyes) with pretend guns. But if they pretend to shoot each other, ever, then that's treading on very thin ice because at some point, they might blur the lines between pretend and real. That's the danger of guns. You pretend to shoot someone and they don't die... the kids don't see any consequences that the "real thing" has. They become anesthetized to what happens because NOTHING about guns is real until they actually have one in their hands.


I think you are underestimating kids here - they know reality v pretend pretty early on.
And if you think your child may not have it down all the more reason to TALK about it - not BAN guns or gunplay.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

I will never forget a demonstration I attended years ago. Local law enforcement laid out 25 or so guns. We were suppose to go down the line of guns on the table, without touching them, and write down if we thought they were real or fake. *No one* got all of them right out of 100+ people. If the average adult can't tell, we expect our children too? Hell, some of the police officers admitted that they didn't get all of them right when they partook in the exercise. Its a mixed message that children do not have the maturity to decipher. You can play with these guns but not with those because those are real?


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren* 
I will never forget a demonstration I attended years ago. Local law enforcement laid out 25 or so guns. We were suppose to go down the line of guns on the table, without touching them, and write down if we thought they were real or fake. *No one* got all of them right out of 100+ people. If the average adult can't tell, we expect our children too? Hell, some of the police officers admitted that they didn't get all of them right when they partook in the exercise. Its a mixed message that children do not have the maturity to decipher. You can play with these guns but not with those because those are real?

You know what, you are striking a remembrance in me here, I saw something on 20/20 about guns and basically the kids did the same thing with the guns whether they had safety training or not-when left alone, they all did the bang bang youre dead stuff. It was scary.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

I am still curious about this. For those that allow toy guns in their house, do you also have (a) real gun (s)?


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *polka hop* 
Did you infer, from the post of mine that you quoted, that I would buy a toy gun for my child?

I inferred from the sarcastic and biting tone of your post in response to a person who expressed their feelings about guns that you would not have a problem with your child having a toy gun like the one linked in the OP. I don't know what kind of shopping you do.


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## ryansma (Sep 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren* 
I am still curious about this. For those that allow toy guns in their house, do you also have (a) real gun (s)?


Ds is only 16 months so he does not have any toy guns. We do not have guns in the house and I feel strongly about that - I just don't see the need. We are city folk








Anyway, I don't think I would buy a toy gun but if he showed interest in them at some time I wouldn't forbid it. Better to let him explore then be done with it.

ETA although I would not buy him a toy gun I would not be too concerned over him fashioning one out of a stick or the like.


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## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

*


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *polka hop* 
What I wrote was in response to the statement that the sole purpose of guns was killing/hurting. It isn't, when one uses them to shoot at inanimate objects for marksmanship practice, as demonstrated by the product around which this thread is centered.

My kids don't have toy guns, and I have no plans to purchase toy guys for them. If they someday become interested in riflery or hunting for food, it's entirely possible that I might provide them with actual guns.

So if someone gave them a gift of the toy gun shown in the OP would you allow them to keep it?


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## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

*


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Everytime the kids are invited to parties, we ask the parents if there is any type of toy that they prefer we not gift. IME, interestingly enough, one of the top gifts not allowed is toy guns. I think it is cool that we are asked that same question often as well.
Our families know not to gift toy guns to us so holidays and family birthday get togethers are generally not a problem.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *polka hop* 
Yeah, I would. Not because I'm gung-ho about kids having the right to play with toy guns, but because I don't judge it to be so wildly inappropriate as to cause lasting psychological damage. In general, it's very unlikely that I'd take a gift away, even if it's something I'd never think to buy them myself.

fair enough. I don't think my inference was really that far off then. You would allow your child to have it.


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## mcng (Oct 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren* 
We don't allow toy guns in our home for any reason. Our decision is based primarily due to safety. Because we own real guns, we do not want our children to perceive any guns as toys. We are vigilant on teaching gun basic safety and to have toy guns in our home, or to allow them to play with a toy gun, contradicts our efforts and is dangerous and counterproductive.
To those who allow toy gun play, do you have real guns in your home?


Well the stove is dangerous and we still have a play kitchen, my kids still know is not ok to play with the real stove, I think most kids can see the diference between toys and the real stuff.


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## jdedmom (Jul 11, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren* 
I am still curious about this. For those that allow toy guns in their house, do you also have (a) real gun (s)?

Yes, we do.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mcng* 
I think most kids can see the diference between toys and the real stuff.

How? Toy guns are disarmingly realistic looking.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jdedmom* 
Yes, we do.

With your DH being a police officer, how do you approach the difference in his service revolver versus the toy guns in your home, with your children?


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ryansma* 
I think you are underestimating kids here - they know reality v pretend pretty early on.
And if you think your child may not have it down all the more reason to TALK about it - not BAN guns or gunplay.

ITA In addition, my ds knows the people on tv are actors who wash off the fake blood and go home to their families.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren* 
How? Toy guns are disarmingly realistic looking.

I have never seen a realistic toy gun. I'm pretty sure they are actually illegal though I don't doubt that they exist. I have seen writing on toy guns saying it is illegal to paint or otherwise alter them to look real. I don't know if real guns that look like toys exist. That would be a bigger problem in my opinion.


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## mcng (Oct 17, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren* 
How? Toy guns are disarmingly realistic looking.

Because you teach them. if you have guns in your house you should teach your children the dangers of them even if they are safely locked away.

And by this reasoning would you let your kids play with some very unreal looking guns lets say a hot pink laser shooting space gun?


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom* 
I have never seen a realistic toy gun. I'm pretty sure they are actually illegal though I don't doubt that they exist. I have seen writing on toy guns saying it is illegal to paint or otherwise alter them to look real. I don't know if real guns that look like toys exist. That would be a bigger problem in my opinion.

Toy guns are not illegal. A quick cursory search will bring an ample number of toy gun suppliers. Here's just one: http://www.kapowwe.com/Merchant2/mer...ategory_Code=1*
* Here are many other images. http://images.google.com/images?q=to...mages&ct=title
The wording you see used on the toys box...it's simply to protect the manufacturer from liability. The words mean nothing really. My point still is, if an adult cannot tell when a gun is real or fake, our children absolutely will not either. Whether it be fake that looks real or real that to the untrained eye looks fake, it doesn't really matter.


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## transformed (Jan 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren* 
Toy guns are not illegal.


I think she meant that real lookingn toy guns are illegal.

They are in NY.

Jenny


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mcng* 
Because you teach them. if you have guns in your house you should teach your children the dangers of them even if they are safely locked away.

Here is what I stated earlier:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren* 
*We don't allow toy guns in our home for any reason. Our decision is based primarily due to safety. Because we own real guns, we do not want our children to perceive any guns as toys.* We are vigilant on teaching gun basic safety and to have toy guns in our home, or to allow them to play with a toy gun, contradicts our efforts and is dangerous and counterproductive.
To those who allow toy gun play, do you have real guns in your home?

So I have already begun teaching them and for us, the first step in responsible gun ownership was no toy guns. We are teaching them in a multitude of ways. It is continuous education.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mcng* 
And by this reasoning would you let your kids play with some very unreal looking guns lets say a hot pink laser shooting space gun?

No toy guns means no toy guns. And I really wish I had taken a picture of the guns used in the exercise I described earlier in this thread, but one of the guns that was indeed real, was pink, and had plastic jewels glued to it. It was confiscated in a drug bust. It looked so stupid, I voted fake without hesitation. And it wasn't.


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## gsd1amommy (Apr 6, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren* 
I am still curious about this. For those that allow toy guns in their house, do you also have (a) real gun (s)?

yes. My son has been gifted with a real gun (all shotguns and rifles) from my father since his first Christmas. He knows these guns are real, that they are to be used with his grandfather and uncles only. They are also equipped with trigger locks. He has many toy guns-hand guns, rifles, shot guns. They all have bright orange paint or plastic at the end of their barrels. But in his six years of life, he has been given much instruction about the many uses of guns and that are tools to be used safely-like saws, screwdrivers, knives, ets. He also knows that he should always assume all guns (outside our home) are real and loaded and are not to be touched and an adult is to be notified if he sees one. No problems. I don't worry about him occupying a cell block or shooting up his school at all. Also, his play is not restricted in regard to gun play. He is on the lookout for bears and tigers, elk and lion. It doesn't occur to him that he should be shooting people. Now as for home protection, I have a GLock hanfgun. HE knows where it is and knows what it's for. It's real and it's loaded and he has no interest in it. If he was, I would unload it and show it to him and show him how it works. All about safely exploring things he is interested in.


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess* 
yeah, still could never buy any form of gun or allow my DS to own a toy like that.









:

My brothers were only ever allowed one gun, and that was short lived. My kids are not allowed to play with fake or real guns. Someday I will get them rifle safety lessons if they would like, but that's a *long* way off and only if they need it for work-police, etc., or for farming.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess* 
So if someone gave them a gift of the toy gun shown in the OP would you allow them to keep it?

Never. I wouldn't donate it, either. It would be destroyed, no matter "how cool".


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
I think she meant that real lookingn toy guns are illegal.

They are in NY.

Jenny

NY and a small number of other states have enacted legislation to control how toy guns are made. But they are not banned and most of the legislation is primitive at best. It is so broad in nature that any toy manufacturer would have no problem bypassing the restrictions.


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## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

*


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *polka hop* 
Ok, but - I just don't see how that is relevant to the question of whether or not guns are used for purposes other than killing/hurting living beings. I could completely forbid gun play, toy guns, shooting motions, etc. in my home, and that still wouldn't change the fact that people often use guns to shoot at cans or clay pigeons.

Well that's not what you asked.







We just went back and forth several times about whether or not I was assuming you would allow your son to have a toy gun and if I was correct in that. My asking was very relevant to your response to me. I had nothing to do with the other post.








:


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## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

*


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## wombatclay (Sep 4, 2005)

This isn't the prettiest site, but there is a mini "which is real" image at http://www.iranonline.com/avc/whichoneisatoy.html And there is a story from last year about NY legislation trying to stop peopl from making real guns look like toys at http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=2045782&page=1

DH hunts for the table and I grew up in a rural community. We are pacifists, were vegetarian for years, and don't want to limit our dds imaginative play. The toy in the op looks like fun for college aged kids...

But I wouldn't allow my child to play with a toy gun. We will be teaching gun safety to our littles, and part of that (for us) is that guns are not toys. If dd wants to hunt with DH and his family that's fine...but she will do it in the proper atmosphere with respect and caution. If she wants to "play hunter" at home she can do it with a stick or her finger (which can transform into so many things, she isn't limited by a set/plastic shape) but NOT with a toy designed to mimc something we have told her is not to be touched/played with.

For us it's just a question of mixed messages. But again, I think that gun slinger toy would have been fun in college!


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

My dh grew up handling guns at an early age. He had a respect for them, and knew that, used inappropriately, they could cause alot of harm. If any of our children ever expresses an interest in guns, we will talk extensively (at an age appropriate level) about them, what they can do, an how we must have a respect for them. And we will show them a real gun, of course always unloaded and under very close supervision. However, since we have real guns in the house, we will not have any fake guns. I realize that the fake ones have the orange at the end of the barrel or some wording on them, but many of the differences are small enough that the guns look very real. We never want our children to 'play guns' with a toy, and then attemp to 'play guns' with a real gun. Of course our guns are locked, seperate from the ammo and we take every precaution to keep them out of reach. I just dont ever want my kids to come across a real gun 1.knowing that they were a taboo thing, increasing their curiosity without 2.knowing what a gun is capable of. I think it is like Captain Crunchy said, a gun is a weapon, but we can make a kitchen knife a weapon as well. It is NOT a gun who kills another human being, it is the PERSON holding the gun that does so. It's easy to point fingers at the gun, and say if they were banned we would have no problems. But following that, should we ban kitchen knives, sticks, rocks, and anything else that *could* be a weapon? No, better to educate and inform. Better to teach respect for fellow human beings. JMNSHO


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## alaska (Jun 12, 2004)

...........


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## Chanley (Nov 19, 2001)

my stepdad is the biggest gun club member NRA fanatic out there. He has oodles of guns.

I was prepared for a battle when I told them no toy guns (we have a no barbie or bratz thing going on too).

I was STUNNED when he agreed with me.

He was like, "Yup, guns are not toys. I will take them out in the woods to shoot pictures till they are old enough to give up the camera for a gun."

To which I replied, "yeah, I get to decide when they are old enough."

that was the last convo we had about it.


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## sonrisaa29 (Feb 3, 2007)

I am curious for those that don't allow guns in your house at all or for play are you okay with this kind of toy guns?
Or this kind of sword play?
We don't allow toy guns in our house either, except for the stuff from the link I provided above.And we do have rifles in the house since my husband hunts.


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## tiffer23 (Nov 7, 2005)

DH grew up hunting (and eating) animals. He's not some psycho killer. I think the way you raise your kids around guns is more important than having or not having them.

Personally, I dislike guns. DH, out of his love for me, has not gone hunting since we married. However, he would go to the shooting range or something. He plans on raising our son knowing how to shot a gun. When I kid knows how to use something, they are far less likely to use it improperly. DH has two guns here at home, but I have no idea where. Neither is loaded, we don't even have ammo in the house.

DS is far too young now for any of it, but I'm sure by the time he's 10-12, he'll know some and be properly trained.


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sonrisaa29* 
I am curious for those that don't allow guns in your house at all or for play are you okay with this kind of toy guns?
Or this kind of sword play?
We don't allow toy guns in our house either, except for the stuff from the link I provided above.And we do have rifles in the house since my husband hunts.

NO

But if their toys come with weapons, they usually are lost of trashed before they even make it back to our house (from family's at xmas). A cannon I don't worry about as much, because if my kid was able to make a cannon, I would probably be more impressed than upset.


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## sonrisaa29 (Feb 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dnw826* 
NO

But if their toys come with weapons, they usually are lost of trashed before they even make it back to our house (from family's at xmas). A cannon I don't worry about as much, because if my kid was able to make a cannon, I would probably be more impressed than upset.









I guess for us personally, the difference is the fact that a) its a cannon and I don't really know anyone who actually uses one b) the guns are the musket variety, and again totally not the same look of todays guns.

Most of the time my son uses a gun, its to "hunt" for wild animals. I think its extremely important for children to learn about gun safety.And I agree with whoever said that in rural areas thats why there are less accidental shootings.


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## caspian's mama (Mar 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bumperbee* 
I don't get separating guns and swords, or bow and arrow... they're weapons, tools meant to injure game or opponents. Why in the world would one think that any particular weapon is any better or any worse when it comes to pretend play?

imo, the difference is that swords and arrows really mess you up. in movies, especially, we see tons of people getting shot, but no real repercussion. a previous poster wrote that she would rather have her kids shooting at each other saying "bang bang" with no physical harm, than have them smacking each other with sticks or pretend swords. again, imo, this is *dead wrong*. the kids are learning that they can use a gun and be totally detached; that, actually, no harm might come from it at all. so many times in the news we hear that a child shot someone simply because they were curious as to what would happen. i would so much rather have my kid get cracked in the face a few times with his friend's plastic light saber so he can appreciate it when i say "be careful; swords can hurt people".


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## caspian's mama (Mar 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swimswamswum* 
I am not interested in raising fodder for the military or prison industrial complexes.









wooooooo!!!

nicely put, mama.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *transformed* 
I absolutley LOVE this

I am not real keen on toy guns, but dh and I disagree and so I love this toy because its not like random "bang bang youre dead" you actually shoot the gun at a log with plastic bottles on it and they fly up in the air and break in half when shot.

Its great. Ds has been playing with it all day long.

Jenny

It's not a PC toy, but it looks like good and safe fun.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caspian's mama* 
she would rather have her kids shooting at each other saying "bang bang" with no physical harm, than have them smacking each other with sticks or pretend swords. again, imo, this is *dead wrong*. the kids are learning that they can use a gun and be totally detached; that, actually, no harm might come from it at all.

I must say that I don't think you give kids enough credit (or maybe my child is just exceptionally intelligent







). My son knows a toy gun cannot hurt people and real sticks can hurt people. He also knows that real guns can hurt and kill people. I'm much more concerned about my child _really_ hurting someone than pretending to.


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## primjillie (May 4, 2004)

Someone asked if it is possible to raise a child over 5 without play guns. My sons (and daughter) are grown and we never had guns, so it is possible. I won't allow play guns or real guns - I just have never found either one necessary to my life. My sons handled guns when they were over 18, but still haven't had the desire to own one. So I think it is possible to raise them without letting them play guns or handle real ones. In am against hunting in general (I'm sure there are a few exceptions) and the only self defense motive I can see is if you live in a rural area with a danger of wild animals/protecting your lifestock. Otherwise - no guns for me - ever.


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## artgoddess (Jun 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *primjillie* 
Someone asked if it is possible to raise a child over 5 without play guns. My sons (and daughter) are grown and we never had guns, so it is possible.

Of course it's possible. I was raised that way. That's like asking if it's possible to raise a child without coaco puffs cereal, if you as a parent don't give it to them it's possible,


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *artgoddess* 
Of course it's possible. I was raised that way. That's like asking if it's possible to raise a child without cacao puffs cereal, if you as a parent don't give it to them it's possible,

I meant more without playing with pretend weapons, shooters, guns, swords whether they be sticks, fingers, or chunks of plastic. I was wondering how many mothers of _boys_ specifically managed to keep their sons from ever engaging in that kind of play without making them feel ashamed at being interested. I wouldn't be able to rely on responses from parents, anyway, since a boy may not admit to being interested if he knows his parents do not approve.

I was also theorizing the most of the people who seem to think that it is a simple matter to prevent children from playing this way were parenting 3 year olds or younger and hadn't yet gotten to the point where their children had gone off to school and were playing "violent" games like power rangers or pokemon on the playground. My ds went briefly to a Friends school, no pretend violence of any kind was permitted. Yet, when I asked ds what he did one day, he replied he made a gun out of pipes. I also saw other kids doing similar things without the very attentive teacher noticing.


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## primjillie (May 4, 2004)

Sure, my boys pretended to have weapons ~ I'm not the type of parent who would stifle them completely! lol I think it is a big difference to "pretend" than to have an actual gun (real or toy) in their hand to shoot with. They knew my feelings about guns and were pretty careful around me, but who knows how they played away from me? I think you have to stick with your beliefs and your children will learn from them. I don't mean they will agree with us, but at least they know that someone they love and trust has very strong feelings against weapons and it will make them think about it. I think that is about you can hope for if you are against guns.


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## beansavi (Jun 26, 2005)

I haven't read thru this whole thread yet, but has anybody mentioned the whole Chinese notion of boys having "Dragon Qui/Chi"? It is referring to the natural tendencies of males to defend their tribe and that if that is not allowed to vent itself they will become warped or stiffled in their life flow/energy.

I let my boys be who they are...and we still talk about weapons and war vs toys and warFARE. My son loves gun toys and games but is a self-proclaimed passifist and leads a life of non-violence. He even tells strangers that he will never go in the army and if he gets drafted he is moving.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *primjillie* 
Sure, my boys pretended to have weapons ~ I'm not the type of parent who would stifle them completely! lol I think it is a big difference to "pretend" than to have an actual gun (real or toy) in their hand to shoot with. They knew my feelings about guns and were pretty careful around me, but who knows how they played away from me? I think you have to stick with your beliefs and your children will learn from them. I don't mean they will agree with us, but at least they know that someone they love and trust has very strong feelings against weapons and it will make them think about it. I think that is about you can hope for if you are against guns.

Sounds reasonable







I just draw the pretending line someplace different (includes chunks of plastic for me). I just don't understand the more rigid no gunplay or weapons of any sort ever stance. Not that I don't understand the desire to have that stance but I don't understand how one could enforce rigid rules of play on kids if they were not amenable to them. And I don't understand why some people think it is ok for kids to shoot toy cannons but not guns, just because they aren't likely to come across a real cannon, IF the concern is that violent play encourages violent behavior.

Also, my ds seems to use the word gun to mean anything that projects something. Someone was nauseated at the thought of using a penis as a gun but all that means is the penis shoots pee, just like a water gun shoots water and a chaulk gun shoots chaulk and a nail gun shoots nails.

And since my 5 weapon loving brothers matured into such sweet sensitive men who don't even hunt (one even gets upset at cutting down trees for christmas), I don't see how people can think letting children play pretend correlates into raising "fodder for the military and prison inmates" or whatever the exact wording was.


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## swimswamswum (Oct 26, 2005)

I'll bite since that was my quote you're referring to.

I don't want my kids playing with anything that resembles a handgun. Why? Handguns are meant to kill people. They're not for hunting, they are weapons built with the express purpose of killing human beings. There is a lot of money invested in weaponry in the world. Huge percentages of our tax dollars support the manufacturing and trade of weapons built to kill human beings. This is something that I take incredibly seriously.

I also agree with Dallaschildren and some of the others that I absolutely don't want my kids thinking that guns are toys. They're not. They're weapons. If my children want to learn to shoot a gun with my father or go hunting with him when they are old enough, I will not prevent that from happening. We eat meat and I think it's completely ethical to hunt if you eat what you shoot. I will prevent them from playing with articles that resemble weapons meant to kill human beings. I want them to understand that guns are used for killing and that they're not toys.

I really don't care if you don't agree with me. I own my house and can make the rules about what kind of toys I allow in it. If my kids want to make guns out of their waffles, they can. I certainly won't encourage it by allowing realistic looking toy handguns in the house.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

ITA sss.


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## princesstutu (Jul 17, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom* 
I don't see how people can think letting children play pretend correlates into raising "fodder for the military and prison inmates" or whatever the exact wording was.

Wasn't that a great way of putting that thought? Her way with words astounded me in that post. Love it!

Quote:

My son knows a toy gun cannot hurt people and real sticks can hurt people. He also knows that real guns can hurt and kill people. I'm much more concerned about my child really hurting someone than pretending to.
I don't mean to pick on you, but...you mentioned the word intelligent, so I thought you may want to know that ppl can hurl toy guns at people and hurt them with them. They can whip a toy gun around and hit someone in the eye.

My next bumper sticker will read: "Toy guns don't hurt people. People with sticks hurt people. And, that's why I love it when people burn wood while pretending to shoot each other."


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## Jwebbal (May 31, 2004)

reminds me of a story. as a young girl I begged my babysitter to allow me to walk the baby she was watching around the block in a stroller. She finally agreed, allowing me to go the end of the street and back. I did so, and two houses before I got to my own home, a neighbor girl stopped me. She had a toy machine gun, and had drawn a line of chalk on the sidewalk. She said that if I crossed the line she would shoot me. Of course I needed to get back, the sitter would be upset if I was gone long, and of course she couldn't really shoot me, so I crossed it. She proceeded to swing the machine gun at my head, hitting me square in the forehead and opening a large gash, blood spurted out everywhere. I ran home, and ended up getting stitches. The neighbor girl was grounded for months. Perhaps its one reason I hate guns, I don't know. I think it's very easy to monitor our children's play, I mean I watch my son to make sure he doesn't hurt other children, and we talk about my reasons for no gun play all the time. He even tells others he doesn't play with guns, and one time he even asked a friend to put her kids swords away when we played at their house.


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## Parker'smommy (Sep 12, 2002)

nope. No toy guns ( or real for that matter) in my house and DEFINITELY not guns that resemble a handgun.

There are so many other ways and choices for my kids to play that I don't see the need to introduce or allow gunplay. I don't feel that my kids are being affected negatively by not being allowed gunplay and they definitely are not missing out on anything by not being allowed gunplay either. They are just fine thankyouverymuch.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

******


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *princesstutu* 
I don't mean to pick on you, but...you mentioned the word intelligent, so I thought you may want to know that ppl can hurl toy guns at people and hurt them with them. They can whip a toy gun around and hit someone in the eye.

Of course they can. They can do that with a shoe. The point was that playing pretend with guns generally involves more body space than playing swords with sticks so there is less chance of real accidents.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *swimswamswum* 
If my kids want to make guns out of their waffles, they can. I certainly won't encourage it by allowing realistic looking toy handguns in the house.

See, that was what I was wondering oh so many posts ago. I understand some people don't want toy guns. I was just wondering where they drew the line. Yours is at waffle guns







.


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## dubfam (Nov 4, 2005)

So if you don't allow your child/ren to play toy guns (or pretend guns) AT ALL, what do you do when they pretend that something else (like their finger) is a gun? When they are pointing it at things and making shooting noises, how do you stop them?

That was what my son would do all the time, no matter how much we tried to discourage it. And we don;t even own a squirt gun (or watch violent movies etc)!! We just couldn't figure out a way to get him to stop playing that way. Once we started allowing small amounts of play (pretending his finger is a gun and shooting imaginary monsters) he really lost most of his interest in gun play. But he still likes to pretend like that occasionally.

So for the parents who never allow their kids to play these types of games, how do you discourage it when the child is really curious about that type of play? I am really curious because I would love to hear some gentle suggestions.


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## princesstutu (Jul 17, 2007)

Well, this is what I did:

We talked about death. We talked about murder. We talked about how we'd like to treat people in this world. We talked about how being shot really, really hurts. We talked about the kind of people we are and the kind of people we'd like to be. We talked about war.

Even a 4yo can understand that getting shot really hurts. 4yos don't want to get hurt anymore than anyone else on the planet.

We have the same conversation for guns as we have for any other type of unnecessary hurting. We discuss responsibility...mine, theirs, the world's.

I'm no pacifist, but I certainly draw the line at pretending items intended as weaponry are toys. I teach my kids that while violence may be an inherent part of life, there are responsibilities that come with being a human on this planet. They get to decide the sort of humans they'll become and I get to help them get used to making decisions that promote personal growth.

And, that doesn't mean my kids don't like to pretend gunplay at times. It simply means that I don't gloss over it like it's some inherent part of childhood. If my son likes guns and shooting, that's his choice. I consider it my responsibility to impart some balance to that.


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## Pyxi (Feb 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meganeilis* 
Guns are tools, in and of themselves there is nothing about them that glorifies violence. Condemning war games is one thing, but looking down your nose at target shooting is just silly.

Please, please help me understand this statement. Guns are tools, yes. But they're tools used for killing, or threatening death at the very least. I need to understand what other use guns have in order to be able to accept this statement.

My DS is only 3 months old now. I'm really hoping to turn him into natureboy and praying he doesn't really have an interest in guns. But when the subject comes up, I'd like to try to be openminded about it.


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Pyxi* 
Please, please help me understand this statement. Guns are tools, yes. But they're tools used for killing, or threatening death at the very least. I need to understand what other use guns have in order to be able to accept this statement.

My husband's gun killed the elk that's in our freezer. It was no less a tool then the knife I use to prepare dinner.

Feeding our family is not a form of violence to us. I would rather shoot an elk that got to live free until the second it died, then support feedlots that sometimes cause suffering for DAYS before the animal dies.









ETA: I also have rancher friends in West Texas who carries pistols for the express purpose of shooting rattle snakes from horse back. It's much easier for them to carry and handle a handgun from horse back then it is to sling a shot gun. And when they're running big herds it's important for the whole herd not to get diverted because one cow got spooked by a snake, so the person heading the heard usually shoots it. Those cows are their livelihood, so they can't afford to loose a calf in the bush because the herd scattered or something. They view their pistols as tools.


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## <~*MamaRose*~> (Mar 4, 2007)

Interesting thread.
I have never (nor have any family or friends) purchased my son a toy gun as it's just not something I've thought of to buy when purchasing him toys. It's never really been discussed. When I think about it, I'm not really sure if I'm even opposed to toy guns (the OP posted a toy that I think isn't so bad) as again it's just not something I've thought about at all (weird I know after reading this thread). Hmmm I did make a conscious decision to avoid purchasing any water guns for my son recently though and just bought a whole bunch spray bottles instead for him and his friends to play with as I didn't know for sure how the other parents in the neighborhood felt about them so I guess they are on my radar after all.
I also was never raised around guns&#8230;they are just not something I'm familiar with and I can actually say in my circle it's just not something any of us own. Also, I can honestly say I don't know anyone that actually owns a gun even for hunting.


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## caspian's mama (Mar 15, 2004)

north of 60, i'm glad you choose to kill your own food instead of supporting factory farming. since that is the way you're raising your children, it makes sense to teach them that guns are acceptable tools for adult use. since my son is vegan and we don't support killing of any kind (not even mosquitoes), almost zero exposure (thus far; he's only 4) just makes more sense for us, y'know?

hmmm... others have asked about how to "shoot down" the interest (sorry, i had to) when it arises. i just treat it like anything else. i say "baby, no blasting" or "sweetheart, we don't kill people" in the same tone of voice i use for "cas, sharpies are for paper only". we've certainly had deeper conversations about it, but i try to keep it towards how *i* feel about guns, war, meat, et cetera without using too much "you can't do xyz" language. the gentle reminders are issued along with the rest of what we try to (as subtly as possible) teach him daily, as the need presents itself. i don't think he feels ashamed, because i do my best to not preach, so hopefully he'll have less reason to want to rebel in the future.

mostly, like i said, talking about my own truest feelings about a subject impacts him the most. anyway, i think it does because that's certainly when *i* feel most connected with him. lately, especially because his empathy and logic are both much more developed than even a yr ago, i've been reaching out like this more and more. if my parents had really bothered to show me how passionate they were about the reason behind a rule, instead of just yelling and being punitive, it would have made so much more sense. it's been hard to get to a place like this; like i said, his aging has helped enormously. arenas like this are so helpful, though, because we can sort out those deep feelings here, and get affected by other POVs too, as a sort of practice for when we share those feelings with the kids.








peace and goodwill to you all. whether your beliefs are similar to mine or not, practice them strongly and with all your heart. that is the best example your kids can see.


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## <~*MamaRose*~> (Mar 4, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caspian's mama* 







peace and goodwill to you all. whether your beliefs are similar to mine or not, practice them strongly and with all your heart. that is the best example your kids can see.

Thank you!


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caspian's mama* 
north of 60, i'm glad you choose to kill your own food instead of supporting factory farming. since that is the way you're raising your children, it makes sense to teach them that guns are acceptable tools for adult use. since my son is vegan and we don't support killing of any kind (not even mosquitoes), almost zero exposure (thus far; he's only 4) just makes more sense for us, y'know?

Does this mean that you will not discuss with him that guns can be tools to _other_ people?


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## Pyxi (Feb 28, 2007)

Thank you so much, North_of_60







That's exactly what I needed to know. I commend you and your family for being so self-sufficient. It's very admirable.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

I doubt anyone on this list doesn't have discussions with their kids about the effects of weapons. Among other things, I certainly have explained to ds that when people die (in a war), it means there are children whose mommies and daddies don't come home ever again. We talk about how sad that is.

My posts were generally directed to the "not over my dead body" crowd that sounded like they forbade all fighting play without addressing any issues. It seems simplistic to me to think that forbidding violent pretending games results in non violent adults and allowing violent pretend play results in violent adults. Like eating and toilet training, there are some things you can not make a child do or not do (pointing fingers and making noises) so talking about it rather than over reacting and freaking out just seems sensible.


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## princesstutu (Jul 17, 2007)

I think violence is a part of human nature and that's as it should be. I think killing animals for food _is_ violent and I have no problems with it.

And, I still think playing with weapons like they're toys is misleading. This thread wasn't started b/c someone posted about her kid using sticks or fingers as pretend guns.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *princesstutu* 
This thread wasn't started b/c someone posted about her kid using sticks or fingers as pretend guns.









But if a stick is ok, then is it ok to break off branches to make it more gun like? And if that's ok, is it ok to make one out of clay in pottery class, or out of legos? And if that isn't a problem, why is a molded piece of plastic a problem? And if only realistic guns are a problem, then are unrealistic space age laser guns a problem?

I just don't understand how people can have hard and fast rules about it and I find it interesting how people decide exactly what is ok and why it is ok for them.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *princesstutu* 
And, I still think playing with weapons like they're toys is misleading.

And to nit pick some more, how is playing with something that can not function as a weapon "playing with weapons"? No one is giving their children actual handguns and sending them out back unsupervised.


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## NWmt_mama (Jul 22, 2005)

I live in rural Montana, where almost everyone hunts for food, and owns guns. We own some for hunting and will teach dd as soon as it is appropriate, about gun safety. I don't know anyone (we have a very crunchy group of friends, too) that doesn't own a gun - our retired neighbor has a gun rack on his bicycle!! To us, gun safety is very important because of the exposure our dd will have.

I was raised without guns (not in MT







) and I dont' remember my brothers having toy guns. I've never shot one, nor do I care to learn.

We will not be allowing any toy guns in the house. Dallaschildren, you made a great point. I never thought about that. Thanks.


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## caspian's mama (Mar 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *North_Of_60* 
Does this mean that you will not discuss with him that guns can be tools to _other_ people?

hmm...

no, i believe that at some point we will. he'll live in a world with guns whether i let him play with toys ones or not. it'll be like explaining to him that some of his friends eat meat and that, of course, it's okay to love them and respect them (and everyone) even though all their choices and values don't mirror our own family's.


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caspian's mama* 
hmm...

no, i believe that at some point we will. he'll live in a world with guns whether i let him play with toys ones or not. it'll be like explaining to him that some of his friends eat meat and that, of course, it's okay to love them and respect them (and everyone) even though all their choices and values don't mirror our own family's.

This is a MUCH nicer way to answer the question than my answer would have been, but does accurately reflect the way that I feel.

Very nicely put, caspian's mama.


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## staceychev (Mar 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom* 
What about if your child wants to build a trebuchet? Would you deny him that fine physics experiment because it is a weapon for knocking down castle walls? (We built one out of tinker toys







). Would it be ok if he built it but then didn't try to knock down blocks with it?

Death by font! (Sorry. Just had to, especially since before today, trebuchet was _only_ a font to me. Yes, I had to google it.)

And regarding the comments that have been made about preschoolers understanding death by their actions... I have my doubts about that. Everything I've read and studied in child development classes has told me that children don't have that sort of abstract thinking. Yes, they understand hurt, yes, they understand "Fido is in heaven," but they really do often believe that they can take back the violence they've done. (Caveat... this is all based on reading--I don't have a real, live preschooler to study!







)


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *staceychev* 
Death by font!









And I didn't know it was a font. What would a font named trebuchet LOOK like? Probably like nothing I am imagining.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *staceychev* 
they really do often believe that they can take back the violence they've done. (Caveat... this is all based on reading--I don't have a real, live preschooler to study!







)

Yeah, they don't understand the permanancy of death which is part of why I think making a big deal about weapon play with young children is pointless (safety is more about supervision). Not that I wouldn't talk about it in an age appropriate way that would progress with their age. But my ds is a big tease. Forbidding something is a sure fire way to encourage it.

I have recently added "if you find something gun shaped in our bushes, let me know before picking it up." This is the most probably way that my ds will run into a real gun and he is just getting to the playing outside w/o me close by stage.


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## staceychev (Mar 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom* 
I have recently added "if you find something gun shaped in our bushes, let me know before picking it up." This is the most probably way that my ds will run into a real gun and he is just getting to the playing outside w/o me close by stage.

I like the idea of calling it something "gun shaped"--it makes the judgment call of "dangerous or not" easier for him to make. (Thinking of the pink "bling" gun mentioned in a previous post.)


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## North_Of_60 (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *l_olive* 
This is a MUCH nicer way to answer the question than my answer would have been, but does accurately reflect the way that I feel.

Very nicely put, caspian's mama.









I don't understand why you couldn't answer that question "nicely"?


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom* 
Those with an anti toy gun stance may find this interesting http://www.mothering.com/articles/gr...bang-bang.html

there was also a great article in the last month (or maybe the one right before) on how making a big fuss over toy guns might be unneccesary. i plan on not buying toy guns for ds, but i am pretty sure he will "pretend" things around the house or yard are guns...
oh, i LOVE archery...LOVE it, so i can see how the target shooters could love doing that. archery seems safe now because we don't run around shooting eachother with arrows as weapons anymore, but its basically the same thing, mastering accuracy with a weapon in a sporting enviornment.
do anti-toy gun mama's not allow any toy weapon, or is it guns only? i realize this might sound baiting so let me be clear that i am sincerely interested because i never really thought about this situation yet and am wondering what i will do when the time comes.


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## bellymama (Apr 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *l_olive* 
Well, OK then. I keep picturing little caveboys running around in their mammoth-skin loin cloths pointing antlers at each other and yelling "Kerpow, you're dead!"









they would've been throwing spears or shooting arrows depending on the era of cave man we are discussing







...the gun is a point in evolution in weapondry. someday there will be moms discussing whether or not to let their sons and daughters play with toy laser beams or something insane like that.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Interesting thread.

My dh is from England and guns (especially handguns) are very rare there. His parents live in a village and respect the need of farmers for shotguns and rifles. But they don't have one and do not see the need to own one. I never had guns around growing up, either. So guns make us both nervous.

But we live in a high gun area - FBI across the street, two police officers down the block, more military and former military than you can shake a stick at ('course my best friend works in anti-bioterrorism - she knows how one could intentionally poison the food supply - but that is another topic for another time...).

I suspect about half the families I know own at least one gun. The reality of this hit home when a friend advised me to ask potential playdate moms whether there are any guns in the house and if so, are they locked up (and the answer "no, but little Johnny knows not to play with them" is insufficient).

So far, we haven't faced the situation, but I know it is there.

In the meantime, we have decided that we don't want any toy guns in our house for the reasons outlined by many previous posters. Guns are not toys - they are powerful tools that need to be respected, treated with care, and only to be used with intentionality, by people who know how to use them.

Now, I know that we have other "powerful tools" in our house that our kids do play with toy versions of - like cars.

Unlike a car, however, a toy gun is much more likely to be mistaken for real - and vice versa. I don't really worry about my son accidentally driving off with my car, for example (he can't reach the clutch, to start with) or think that someone's mazda is something he can try to drive off with. I do worry that he may come across a real gun and believe it is a toy.

And I am also worried that if my son - when he is older than now - were carrying a toy gun in his hands, other people (especially the police) may think he has a real gun. You may think "oh, it is bright orange! No one could think that is real." I think that asking a police officer to make that judgement (toy? Not a toy?) when his life is potentially on the line is foolish and unfair. People get accidentally shot when pulling out a wallet - why make the situation more likely to become deadly by making the potential weapon more weapon shaped?

I have a good friend who is African but lives in the DC metro area. She told me that most families at her church completely ban guns (toy or otherwise) from their homes. Most families don't allow their children to play with them - because they are completely and intimately aware of the racist connotations of a black boy holding a gun in the US.

She told me once "I don't want my son shot because he's got a water pistol in his hand and some stupid person thought 'black kid with a gun, he's probably a gangster'."

My blond haired, blue eyed kid has race priviledges that her kids will never have. But the danger is there, still, for the potential hair trigger situation which exists whenever there are two strangers holding guns in their hands.

If they choose at an older age to learn about guns, I will support them. I want them to be 100% intentional in their usage of guns - and they cannot be until they are older.

My 2 cents.

Siobhan


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## sonrisaa29 (Feb 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
Interesting thread.

My dh is from England and guns (especially handguns) are very rare there. His parents live in a village and respect the need of farmers for shotguns and rifles. But they don't have one and do not see the need to own one. I never had guns around growing up, either. So guns make us both nervous.

But we live in a high gun area - FBI across the street, two police officers down the block, more military and former military than you can shake a stick at ('course my best friend works in anti-bioterrorism - she knows how one could intentionally poison the food supply - but that is another topic for another time...).

I suspect about half the families I know own at least one gun. The reality of this hit home when a friend advised me to ask potential playdate moms whether there are any guns in the house and if so, are they locked up (and the answer "no, but little Johnny knows not to play with them" is insufficient).

So far, we haven't faced the situation, but I know it is there.

In the meantime, we have decided that we don't want any toy guns in our house for the reasons outlined by many previous posters. Guns are not toys - they are powerful tools that need to be respected, treated with care, and only to be used with intentionality, by people who know how to use them.

Now, I know that we have other "powerful tools" in our house that our kids do play with toy versions of - like cars.

Unlike a car, however, a toy gun is much more likely to be mistaken for real - and vice versa. I don't really worry about my son accidentally driving off with my car, for example (he can't reach the clutch, to start with) or think that someone's mazda is something he can try to drive off with. I do worry that he may come across a real gun and believe it is a toy.

And I am also worried that if my son - when he is older than now - were carrying a toy gun in his hands, other people (especially the police) may think he has a real gun. You may think "oh, it is bright orange! No one could think that is real." I think that asking a police officer to make that judgement (toy? Not a toy?) when his life is potentially on the line is foolish and unfair. People get accidentally shot when pulling out a wallet - why make the situation more likely to become deadly by making the potential weapon more weapon shaped?

I have a good friend who is African but lives in the DC metro area. She told me that most families at her church completely ban guns (toy or otherwise) from their homes. Most families don't allow their children to play with them - because they are completely and intimately aware of the racist connotations of a black boy holding a gun in the US.

She told me once "I don't want my son shot because he's got a water pistol in his hand and some stupid person thought 'black kid with a gun, he's probably a gangster'."

My blond haired, blue eyed kid has race priviledges that her kids will never have. But the danger is there, still, for the potential hair trigger situation which exists whenever there are two strangers holding guns in their hands.

If they choose at an older age to learn about guns, I will support them. I want them to be 100% intentional in their usage of guns - and they cannot be until they are older.

My 2 cents.

Siobhan

Now does the size of the toy gun matter to you? For example our son plays with the pirate set from playmobil, the muskets are literally the size of your pinkie nail. Personally, I don't think a cop woudl ever mistake this for a real gun.


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## siobhang (Oct 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sonrisaa29* 
Now does the size of the toy gun matter to you? For example our son plays with the pirate set from playmobile, the muskets are literally the size of your pinkie nail. Personally, I don't think a cop woudl ever mistake this for a real gun.

Of course not, they'd never see it. And I don't think a cop would mistake a spoon for a gun either. It doesn't mean I want my kid playing with a mock machine gun, though.

In my mind, toy guns, especially given to very young kids, encourage cavalier attitudes towards guns, which I think is dangerous.

The problem we all face, I believe, when dealing with the gun question is that we all live in a context where gun violence * is* treated cavalierly in the popular media.

And however we try to teach our kids about how what you see on TV, in video games, and hear in music isn't real and that guns are serious tools with legitimate uses that need to be respected, our voices are competing with popular culture which is saying "guns give you power! they make you cool and strong!"

DH recently played a video game where you get shot once, you die. He said it was shocking to realize how used he was to the entire concept of "I have four lives before I have to heal" type of game. He said it completely changed his basic gaming strategy - one shot and game over. And even with that game, he could still start over again.

Yes, kids learn to tell the difference between reality and a game - but I hope they never have to face the reality of shooting a real gun at a real person.

I don't know how to introduce real guns into their lives, especially since there is a big likelihood that they will have friends with guns in their houses. I don't think letting them play with toy guns is the way to do it, however.


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## l_olive (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bellymama* 
they would've been throwing spears or shooting arrows depending on the era of cave man we are discussing







...the gun is a point in evolution in weapondry. someday there will be moms discussing whether or not to let their sons and daughters play with toy laser beams or something insane like that.

Well, this was kinda my point. Posters were saying that their child -- having never, ever seen a gun, spontaneously came up with pointy things that went kerpow made out of waffles, hangers and penises.

I was trying to make the point that I doubted that play gun creation was organically conceived without some exposure, and that cave boys were quite likely NOT making guns out of mammoth tusks. Other weapons, sure... but gun play is just not part of our ancestral genetic makeup.

My point was lost on several, it appears.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *l_olive* 
Well, this was kinda my point. Posters were saying that their child -- having never, ever seen a gun, spontaneously came up with pointy things that went kerpow made out of waffles, hangers and penises.

I was trying to make the point that I doubted that play gun creation was organically conceived without some exposure, and that cave boys were quite likely NOT making guns out of mammoth tusks. Other weapons, sure... but gun play is just not part of our ancestral genetic makeup.

My point was lost on several, it appears.

I thought you made a great point and I agree. There were several people saying that their children had never, ever, ever been out of their sight and the kids had spontaneously come up (from their own little minds) the concept of shooting with something fashioned into a gun without having ever been exposed *at all* to guns. Um... well, I just can't believe that. If that were so, why did it take humans hundreds of thousands of years to think up the concept of guns? As vigilant as you can be, at some point, yeah, you're child was exposed to guns and how they work if they are pretending gun play. There is no way a 3 year old is going to be so smart and creative (no matter what their level of intelligence is) to think up "guns" from nothing. That's just a ridiculous claim. It's not "part of our nature". I actually don't even believe that violence is part of human nature. I think that humans, as a whole, are rather peace-loving. It has been consequences that have forced us to use violence.


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## caspian's mama (Mar 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *l_olive* 
My point was lost on several, it appears.

i got it the first time, too.


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## caspian's mama (Mar 15, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *siobhang* 
In my mind, toy guns, especially given to very young kids, encourage *cavalier* attitudes towards guns, which I think is dangerous. The problem we all face, I believe, when dealing with the gun question is that we all live in a context where gun violence * is* treated cavalierly in the popular media.

yes, yes! thank you for your word choice there. swords and arrows, to me, have an art to them, where i feel that guns only have a single, highly unglamorous purpose. (when discussing this with dh, he forced me to acknowledge that others may see gun design as artful. i accept this; i just don't agree.)

i don't know. maybe it just comes down to me being a big ol' geek. i feel so proud when he's galloping in circles around the yard, brandishing his plastic light saber and singing the "brave sir robin" song. he has been exposed to violence, but i feel that we're helping him to overcome the constant love/hate of it which consumes this society.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
I thought you made a great point and I agree. There were several people saying that their children had never, ever, ever been out of their sight and the kids had spontaneously come up (from their own little minds) the concept of shooting with something fashioned into a gun without having ever been exposed *at all* to guns. Um... well, I just can't believe that. If that were so, why did it take humans hundreds of thousands of years to think up the concept of guns? As vigilant as you can be, at some point, yeah, you're child was exposed to guns and how they work if they are pretending gun play. There is no way a 3 year old is going to be so smart and creative (no matter what their level of intelligence is) to think up "guns" from nothing. That's just a ridiculous claim. It's not "part of our nature". I actually don't even believe that violence is part of human nature. I think that humans, as a whole, are rather peace-loving. It has been consequences that have forced us to use violence.

I can't say for sure that my ds had absolutely no exposure to any guns when he was 3 but he was coming up with the idea of things being projected out of other things with very little to work with. Maybe spray Windex gave him ideas. Maybe his penis gave him ideas. His first pretend shooters did not shoot bullets but they shot a myriad of other things like pee or candy. Even without actual guns, there are enough tools in modern life, like staple guns, for an intelligent 3 yo to come up with the concept of an object projecting a smaller object. If you have a child who will throw a block at a person then "shooting" a person with a projectile is not a big leap for that child.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *4evermom* 
I can't say for sure that my ds had absolutely no exposure to any guns when he was 3 but he was coming up with the idea of things being projected out of other things with very little to work with. Maybe spray Windex gave him ideas. Maybe his penis gave him ideas. His first pretend shooters did not shoot bullets but they shot a myriad of other things like pee or candy. Even without actual guns, there are enough tools in modern life, like staple guns, for an intelligent 3 yo to come up with the concept of an object projecting a smaller object. If you have a child who will throw a block at a person then "shooting" a person with a projectile is not a big leap for that child.

I'm sorry, but it's not a natural progression to think of "shooting" things when you see a projectile. A projectile is just that - something thrown with the arm... to say that it is coming from a device shaped like a gun simply from the imagination... no amount of "intelligence" at 3 years of age is going to trump the imaginations of man for hundreds of thousands of years. I think it's ridiculous to think that your 3 year old came up with a concept of shooting to kill, on his own,when the human race (with millions of very intelligent people through the years) couldn't form the concept until relatively recently. I think the "windex" example is, to put it bluntly, lame. A 3 year old thinking up "bullets" coming out of a "gun" from seeing you using windex?? Come on.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
A 3 year old thinking up "bullets" coming out of a "gun" from seeing you using windex?? Come on.

That is not what I said. He did not come up with the idea of shooting bullets from guns for the purpose of killing people. As a matter of fact, he has never shot a gun with a bullet and killed a person. He has pretended to shoot many different types of projectiles which people somehow think will cause him to come to that end.

He was exposed to the idea of small things coming out of bigger things and realized it could be used in a variety of ways. A staple gun can staple my upholstery fabric. My ds wants to know how far the staples can pop out and thinks about what that can do. He has a staple thrower. He is aware that it could shoot a staple at a person. Take the vacuum. The hose can be put on the other end of the canister and it can blow air. Ds discovers he can put small balls there and shoot balls. He has made an air gun from household objects.

Men for thousands of years were not living with staple guns and vacuums. My child is. He comes up with these ideas. Every object in his life, he figures out all the ways they can be used. I'm constantly surprised with the innovative ways he uses his toys.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

So, you made the point... they are exposed to the concept... it's not part of their nature and they don't come up with it all on their own.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
So, you made the point... they are exposed to the concept... it's not part of their nature and they don't come up with it all on their own.

Is throwing a rock at someone or something when angry human nature? Is using a tool to do that not human nature?


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## BrooklynDoula (Oct 23, 2002)

Studies indicate that even the emotion of anger is not innate so I'd say no, throwing at humans to injure them is not innate.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Uh yeah I definitely don't think throwing things at people in anger is innate at all.


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## 4evermom (Feb 3, 2005)

My son has been known to throw things when angry. This is not something he was taught. I doubt his intent is so much to injure as to express anger with injury being incidental. I doubt I have the only child who has hit or thrown things at people.

Intent to injure wasn't my point, anyway. The point is that one of the defining characteristics of humans is tool making. To throw a rock for whatever reason isn't different than using a tool to throw a rock for whatever reason. It isn't less natural for a human to use a tool to suit their purposes.


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