# Support group for gentle sleep "training"



## Rebekah (Jan 15, 2002)

Today is Day One for me of a gentle sleep training plan (i.e., no CIO plan). Is anyone interested in joining me in a support group and in trading tips on what is working and what is not?

The plan I'm going to start using is based in part on Pantley's book "The No Cry Sleep Solution," though I'm likely to introduce my own variation (and would like to hear about your creative variations too!). I think a support group would be helpful because (as I experienced last night in trying out a few new things) the nights of sleeping through part of ds's nursings are over, and so for the near future I'm going to get less sleep than now. (Ugh!). I'm hoping that there will be a pay off in the end with decreased wakings though.

Here is where we are and where I want to be: Ds is about a week shy of 6 months. We've always co-slept, and I've always nursed ds to sleep. Ds wakes every 1-2 hours to nurse. I function okay because I can sleep in AND take naps with ds. I return to work in 6 weeks, though, and know I can't function like this at that time. Here is where I want to be: I'd like to reduce ds's wakings to 1-2 per night. I want to continue to co-sleep and continue to nurse him to "almost" sleep (then he does the rest on his own). I DO NOT WANT HIM TO CRY.

Here is what I'm doing today at the suggestion of Pantley. FIrst, I'm going to figure out how much he is sleeping by keeping a log of his naps (when, how long, where, what is going on in the environment), his bedtime routine (what we did, what the noise level was, whether lights were bright or dim), and his nighttime pattern (when he wakes, how long he nurses, how he fell back asleep). Tomorrow, I'll total everything to see how much sleep he got, see if I can detect any patterns, and have a base line to evaluate PROGRESS!







Pantley says that at his age he should be sleeping approximately 14-15 hours during the course of a day.

Second, I'll make a sleep plan that we will follow for the next 10 days. And we'll start the plan tonight. We already have a set bedtime routine, so here is what I'm thinking of adding to that: (1) dim lights during the hour before bed, and no "games" where he laughs hysterically, (2) no sugar or milk for me anytime near bedtime, (3) a meal of solid foods around 5:30-6, (4) a bedtime of 7:15 or 7:30, (5) as lengthy naps today as possible, (6) dh will take ds at his first waking (probably around 9:30 or 10:00) and sling him back to sleep, (7) I'll nurse him after each waking thereafter but try popping him off the boob before he falls asleep (for those of you who haven't read Pantley, this can take numerous times before the babe finally gives up and goes to sleep--I tried it last night and it took ds between 5-10 times of pulling him off and him immediately rooting for it and latching back on before he gave up and just went to sleep when I pulled him off, (8) I'll try to rub his back before immediately offering him the boob when he wakes up, and (9) I'll rub his back while he nurses to help him make an association between rubbing and sleeping. I think that is it for the next 10 days, but I may think of a few more things today to add.

I hope some of you will join me in this journey.


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

I'll support you. I have tried so many things to get my now one year old to sleep. She still doesn't go for more 21/2 hours...ok sometimes 3. I think I have trulbe sticking to a program b/c I am so tired that I know nursing will send her off faster and I don't always have the energy to stick with a regime. I feel very guilty about that. I just ordered a tape that has amoney back gurantee. So if I am uncomfortable with the techniques I will send it back however, it seems good I will let you know how it goes.


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## Rebekah (Jan 15, 2002)

I know what you mean about going with what "works" because then we get to sleep faster (though not longer). We made an appointment with a sleep counselor that many have had good luck with--I just want someone to help tailor a plan that works for US. The meeting is on Thursday. Meanwhile, the past 2 nights of trying the new plan have been the most sleepless since he was a newborn! Ugh! It makes me wonder if I'm doing the right thing with pulling him off the breast once his sucking has slowed. It took forever before he fell asleep and then he woke every 30-45 minutes as opposed to every 1-2 hours. Ugh!

What tape did you order hipumpkins?


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## luckylady (Jul 9, 2003)

you are smart for doing it at a young age. My DD is 19 mos and is waking every 3-4 hours - STILL. I am ready to nightwean and do something myself. Good luck to you!


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## Island Mommy (Mar 26, 2003)

I'd love to join in with a support thread. Like you, I hesitate to try anything because any changes mean even less sleep for me. BTW, dd wakes every 1-2 hours. Last night was more horrible than normal....dd was awake for over 3 hours from 12:30 a.m. to 3:30 a.m.!!
I've got the Pantley book on hold at the library. Hopefully I'll get it soon so I can follow her suggestions.
I really think it's time to try to makes some changes though. Post how it goes for you tonight. I'll check in the morning.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

So happy to see this thread! I'm doing the Pantley book, but for different reasons. I'm not working too hard on the pulling off thing, because at least for now I don't mind if I wind up nursing ds several times during the night. (he's actually been waking more frequently to nurse lately, since he started teething I think, than before.) But our main objectives are to help him take regular naps and to be able to sleep in his crib when we aren't in the bed with him.

So last week I started to introduce a night time sleep routine. I did it Monday through Thursday nights. It includes a mellowing out playtime with music, a bath, a rubdown with lotion (bath every night can dry the skin!) dressing in pajamas, a song, and nursing to sleep (in the bed, where he stays.







) My son had been going to sleep around 8 or 9, now he's going down around 7:30, without a fight. Tuesday through Friday, my son took naps each day and got a lot of sleep! I know people say that if a baby gets good naps he'll sleep better, well apparently it works the other way around.

We are still not having success with the crib, BUT, my son is willing to hang out in the crib for 15-20 minutes. I mean, hang out not actively playing with it--he had been treating it like an intriguing jungle gym. But over the weekend, he took some rests in it--lying down, cooing and gurgling to himself. This is one of Pantley's ideas, the idea that the baby should learn "my bed is a nice place."

I'm not sure if I should be trying to do the pull-off thing. I'm considering it.


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

Well Rebekah, how did it go last night? The videotape I oredered is called sleep tight. I liked what the website was saying was in the video about not crying to sleep and how some moms feel it is thier lot in life to never sleep. The one thing that makes me nervous about the video is that the doctor who out it together says he can get a baby as young as 8 weeks to sleep through the night. That seems a bit young. He also offers online email support. So we shall see. I will let you know when it arrives and I get to view it.


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## Island Mommy (Mar 26, 2003)

Hipumpkins, I took a look at that website and I must say, I'm intrigued. Some of his comments might irk some people, but I thought they were realistic.

I've been feeling guilty lately that I want to make some changes to our sleeping pattern. I've been subscribing to the philosophy that babies don't need to be trained to sleep and that as a mother, I should respond to my baby's needs regardless of what they are. I've been presuming that when she wakes up crying she needs me to nurse her. So, to try to change things means I am not responding to her needs, which leads to me feeling guilty.

However, I think that this guilt might be misplaced. I think I have been encouraging her in what has become a difficult behaviour for both of us and feeling guilty about trying to change it is not going to help either of us. I truly believe that waking 10 times per night is not good for dd. I don't believe that Sears/Gordon et al anticipate this much nightwaking when they advocate cosleeping and nursing on demand so they don't address what to do when it happens.

If I was working out of the home I could not continue with the way things are. I also don't believe that mothers in other cultures would handle it any better. I am saddened that my experience with my dd is making me question whether to have another child. I don't think it's supposed to be this way.

So, enough of me. Please let us know ASAP what you think of the video, Hipumpkins and good luck Rebekah. Let us know how your appointment with the sleep counselor goes.


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## magdala (Oct 2, 2002)

Wanting to join in after a particularily sleepless night for me. My dd (almost 8 mos. ) seems to nurse practically all night - since beginning teething 2 mos. ago this has been the norm, using the nipple as her pacifier- with short "naps" about 1/2 hr. long between feedings. She is such a happy, contented, easy going baby that I have related it to her getting all her needs met, and this type of sleep arrangement seems to be one of them. But I am becoming a much less happy, contented easy-going mommy because of it....!!!
I am not so good with scheduling and charting and that sort of thing- maybe it's the only way? I'd love to hear from some "veterans" what has WORKED- without imposing an unnatural seperation upon a happily attached babe.
- Magda & K.Lil the nursing wonder


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Island Mommy_
I truly believe that waking 10 times per night is not good for dd. I don't believe that Sears/Gordon et al anticipate this much nightwaking when they advocate cosleeping and nursing on demand so they don't address what to do when it happens.
Dr Sears addresses really frequent nightwaking here, as possibly having a medical reason, such as GER (making the point that sleep training would be cruel in this case, if baby is in pain or discomfort):

http://pediatrics.about.com/gi/dynam...%2FT070100.asp

Quote:

If I was working out of the home I could not continue with the way things are.
Just pointing out that babies of mothers who work outside the home often reverse cycle and get the bulk of their breastmilk in evening and nighttime feedings.


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## Harper (Jul 10, 2003)

This is a great thread! Several weeks ago my dd was sleeping terribly--getting up at least every hour. We read NCSS and started doing several of the steps. Almost instantly things improved. Unfortunately, several weeks later and I am totally sleep deprived again. Dd (now 9 months old) has started waking frequently, getting up at odd hours of the morning and wanting to play (she was up from 2 to 5) one day last week and usually waking for good at 5:30 am! I am a full time WOHM and I am exhausted.

My dh is happy to help in the middle of the night but invariably he get dd to sleep and she wakes 30 minutes later (or 10 or 20). He will go back to her and get her to sleep again and she will wake up minutes later. By this time he has been up for over and hour and it is my turn. So I nurse her and she falls back to sleep. She gets up about 7 times a night. She eats plenty during the day--usually 15 to 20 ounces of breast milk and two small solid food meals. (Plus nursing and one more meal before she goes to bed.)

I think the most frustrating thing for me is that she has no pattern. She will usually do the same thing for two or three days and then will start to do something completely different. This makes it impossible to have a plan and stick to it! She is clearly the boss and we are just responding to her.

I actually have been meaning to reread the book and start from scratch. This support group has given me the encouragement I have needed.

Good luck.


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

I went to the Sears site and he is really talking about infants night waking. I know my daughter does not have GER. She doesn't wake up screaming. She isn't in pain. She just can't seem to get herself back to sleep with out nursing.


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## Island Mommy (Mar 26, 2003)

I also went to the Sears site again and believe that most of his suggestions are geared towards young infants

My dd does wake up crying and yes, I've considered that it might be GERD. In fact, I have a filled prescription for Zantac.

However, the only tests to diagnosis GERD are invasive and uncomfortable for the baby. Most peds do not recommend doing them. Instead, they prescribe Zantac and suggest that you try it for a week and see if it works.

Zantac is a strong drug and no long term tests have been done of its effects on young children. I am very leary of giving drugs to DD. My dh is very opposed.

So, my hope was that if it was GERD, dd would grow out of it. My ped has also suggested that dd may be lactose intolerant, but again this was just a guess and the only option he had was to switch her to a soy-based formula.

My thoughts with trying out Pantley and other suggestions are that if dd responds positively and starts sleeping longer, without leaving her to CIO, then I'll know that she likely didn't have GERD. If I try all these techniques and she still doesn't sleep any better, perhaps we will try the Zantac again, although I know dh will not be happy about it.

As for WOHM, I believe that women who work out of the home and have to drive a vehicle every day and function could not manage long-term with serious sleep deprivation.

DaryLLL, do you not believe that a child could be waking every hour due to sleep cycles and nursing back to sleep for comfort?


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:

_Originally posted by Island Mommy_
My dd does wake up crying and yes, I've considered that it might be GERD. In fact, I have a filled prescription for Zantac.

However, the only tests to diagnosis GERD are invasive and uncomfortable for the baby.
But you can just tell by the symptoms can't you, without invasive tests?

pain, irritability, or constant or sudden crying (signs that may be mistaken for colic) after eating
frequent spitting up or vomiting after eating
vomiting more than 1 hour after eating
regular spitting up that continues after the first year, the age when most children grow out of it
inability to sleep soundly
"wet burp" or "wet hiccup" sounds
poor weight gain or weight loss

Quote:

Most peds do not recommend doing them. Instead, they prescribe Zantac and suggest that you try it for a week and see if it works.
Well that's what drs do, give out drugs.

Quote:

Zantac is a strong drug and no long term tests have been done of its effects on young children. I am very leary of giving drugs to DD. My dh is very opposed.
Rightly so.

Quote:

So, my hope was that if it was GERD, dd would grow out of it.
She will most probably, eventually. But what can you do to make her more comfortable in the meantime? Giving drugs is not the only way.

Take a look at this site.

http://www.kellymom.com/babyconcerns/reflux.html

Quote:

My ped has also suggested that dd may be lactose intolerant, but again this was just a guess and the only option he had was to switch her to a soy-based formula.
Your dr is wrong. Lactose intolerance in infants is almost unheard of. Galactosemia is a serious disease. More likely she is sensitive to the cow's milk proteins in your diet. Or the soy, or wheat, corn, nuts, etc.

Also, ABM is more likely to irritate the esophagus than breastmilk, which is so natural.

The risks of artificially feeding an infant are so great, switching to soy formula (or Nutramigen for ex) would be a last resort. And then, she might be sensitive to it. Much better to take the untolerated food out of your diet, and keep giving her the kind of milk her body needs.

Quote:

As for WOHM, I believe that women who work out of the home and have to drive a vehicle every day and function could not manage long-term with serious sleep deprivation.
That is true, but as a mom of three young children, I also lived in my mini-van! I thought driving my precious cargo around sleep deprived was even scarier than if I was alone driving to work.

Quote:

DaryLLL, do you not believe that a child could be waking every hour due to sleep cycles and nursing back to sleep for comfort?
It could be possible, while unusual. Every 2-3 hours, yes. Every hour, no. And as you say she seems to be crying in pain, and staying awake for hours in the middle of the night as well, that does not sound right.

All 3 of mine were terrible teethers. Esp my middle dd. But the nightwaking would go in spurts, as the teeth moved. It was not every night since infancy of waking up and staying up. I just rec, don't just think this is a bad habit and you caused it and need to break her of it by using techniques. Perhaps change your diet first and see if she is more comfortable? some mothers say it is hard to do, but the child's personality is so improved, and the sleep so good, the diet change is worth it.

If it is teeth, some moms find the Hylands Teething tablets work. Myself I resorted to reg painkillers sometimes, b/c the baby would be so frantic and I would be falling over from walking the floors. 2 of mine are spirited and really let me know when they were miserable.

BTW, they are all teens now and sleep great. I would too, if it weren't for the hot flashes. Yeah, it's always something.


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## Rebekah (Jan 15, 2002)

Well, last night was somewhat better but only because I think I slept through a feeding or two. Last thing I remember is ds waking around 11:30 and nursing him to sleep and then him waking up shortly thereafter and nursing him. NEXT THING I KNOW it is 4:50 and he is nursing. Did he sleep in my arm all that time nursing on and off? Did I pull him to me at that time and just don't remember? I've never been a good sleeper so this just amazes me. I think it is a sign about how tired I am. Needless to say, I didn't do too much "pulling off" training last night.

I did notice that ds went back to sleep once right after he started to stir and I put my hand on his belly. This was a first. He only slept 5 minutes, but this is a big deal. I also had better success with pulling him off and him not rooting around immediately. But this may be because I was so tired that I was letting him nurse to sleep without realizing it.

Quote:

However, I think that this guilt might be misplaced. I think I have been encouraging her in what has become a difficult behaviour for both of us and feeling guilty about trying to change it is not going to help either of us. I truly believe that waking 10 times per night is not good for dd. I don't believe that Sears/Gordon et al anticipate this much nightwaking when they advocate cosleeping and nursing on demand so they don't address what to do when it happens.
I know what you mean Island Mommy. I've always responded to ds's needs and always nursed him when he was tired or upset. And as a result he has been such a happy baby. But now, he can't go to sleep by himself and is waking so frequently after each sleep cycle and needing me to put him back to sleep. I'm weary to the core. I loathe evenings because I know that the night parenting begins, and it is so hard. As a result, I'm finding myself thinking of making changes that I never thought possible. And I'm embarassed to admit that here, as I know how most of you moms feel about co-sleeping, etc. And I too have been such an advocate. But I'm tired and I'm dreaming of having a good sleep by myself in my bed. As a result, I'm thinking about purchasing a crib. Anyway, I'm not going to do anything until I meet with the sleep counselor to see what she thinks is going on and offers a plan (I suspect though that what is going on is purely habit on ds's part, but we will see.)


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

Just so you know we do not Co sleep. My Daughter was in a cradle in our room until she was 4.5 months old. Then she was moved into her crib. I have slept in the crib on more then one occasion (her crib has alittle door on it and I am under 5 foor so this is not especially difficult) Off and on she has been in our bed but our goal is to get her to sleep in her crib.


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## Sleepymama (Oct 9, 2003)

I guess we could join in on this thread--we've tried everything and now we're trying some gentle sleep training for 10 mo old DS.

We have particularly severe sleep problems (waking every hour or less, cannot go to sleep without being held and/or nursing, usually needs to be held *while* sleeping, especially naps) because DS has had two open heart surgeries to correct a congenital heart defect. He is also high needs and I am certain this combination (plus 10 months of being held almost 24 hours a day) has made him completely dependent on being near us for sleep.

However, he seems to be unable to stay asleep for longer than 2 hours. This is the maximum even while being held by Dh, which is his absolute favorite sleep position. I suspect he might have some reflux but his doctor doesn't seem to think so. He is fully recovered from both surgeries but just can't sleep on his own, and can't sleep for more than 2 hours at a time no matter whether he is with me or DH.

We have tried literally everything except letting him cry alone. We have tried letting him cry while we patted and comforted him in our bed and in the crib. He just crawls around screaming. We have tried getting him to sleep by carrying him and then laying him down. No matter how many times we try (and we have tried 10+ times per night for a couple of weeks now) he wakes up the instant we even shift position to lay him down. We don't even get near the bed or crib before he wakes up!

We have tried the no cry sleep solution, consistent bedtime routines, nipple pull off, we've even tried nightweaning.

The fact that he wakes so frequently even with DH tells me that it isn't proximity to my breasts that wakes him up. It's something else. We don't know what else to do. Our doctor wants us to put him in the crib and stay with him until he falls asleep but he can't do this. He can't go from angry and crying to asleep without being held.

If anyone has any advice for me I surely appreciate it. The sleep deprivation is ruining our lives.


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

My ds is spirited. He also had to be on my body to sleep for his first 12 mos. I would wear him in a sling and sit in the rocking chair for his naps, as I also had a 3 yo and a 5 yo to watch!

Miraculously, after his first b-day, he started sleeping alone on my bed for naps! And I could nurse him to sleep at night, get up from the bed and he would stay asleep for 2 hours, until I went to bed!

He just outgrew the extreme sleep neediness. We didn't have to do anything fancy except have patience.

I hope yours starts doing this too, soon!


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## Harper (Jul 10, 2003)

Just checking in. Last night was a bit better--4 wakings instead of 5. DD (nine months) went to sleep at 7:30 and got up at 10:30, 1, 3:30, 5. I thought she was up for good at 5:45 but she slept in dh's lap for about 30 more minutes. Dh handled the 10:30 waking so I slept for 4 straight hours!! Heaven!!

One of the things that we have tried this week is to change around our bedtime routine. It used to be that we would do a bath, then massage and books, diaper, pjs, nurse in bed and rock with daddy. I have changed the nursing to after bath and before books. It has taken dh about 30 minutes to get dd to relax enough for sleep the last two nights but she is getting used to it. I want dh to be able to handle a night waking and have dd stay asleep for more than 30 minutes! I don't know if this will ultimately help the night wakings or just transfer some of the work to dh. We'll see.

I have also reiterated for my dh and nanny that they have to try and put her down a bit awake. They are both so afraid that if she isn't sound asleep she won't stay asleep or that she will skip a nap or something. But I have great success putting her down while her eyes are still open and she will drift off. If she doesn't, I will pick her up again.

Oh for those concerned--I am a WOHM but I take public transportation so even on my most sleep deprived days, I am not a risk to myself or others!


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## Shanghaimum (Jan 4, 2002)

Hi there

I have a 2 month old dd and a 25 month old ds. Ds is a champion "sleep fighter" who sleep has improved dramatically in the past year. He has only just started sleeping through the night (has been for the past 2-3 months - yahoo!). We followed ideas from Pantleys' book and also did a gentle nightwean when he was a year old (followed some of Dr. Jay Gordon's ideas)... I just wanted to let you know there is an excellent yahoo group for parents following the NCSS. The url is www.groups.yahoo.com/group/NoCrySleep2

Good luck

Emma


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## DaryLLL (Aug 12, 2002)

Just wanted to point out that studies show most APed toddlers start sleeping through the night (as defined by 5 hours straight, and minimal fuss to get back to sleep), by 2 1/2 yrs, without special techniques or forced night-weaning.

Once they get to be that age, they may need your help to get up and go potty anyway, but hopefully they do that haf-asleep and go right back to sleep.

I know that doesn't help those of you with 9 mos!







:


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## Sleepymama (Oct 9, 2003)

Thanks. I know we are doing the right thing by holding him all the time, and frankly I was fine with it at 4 months, 5 months, even 7-8 months. People tell me to ignore the housework etc. This is great advice for a new baby, up to about 3 months or so. But at some point when you have to wade through giant piles of laundry to get to the kitchen where you can't even see the sink something has to change. I simply cannot live for two years being waken up every half hour. No amount of telling me this is normal will help that.

And I am a huge danger on the road--I work 2 days a week and commute almost 1 hour each way with my DS in the car (his babysitter is near my work). On top of that I have to pay a ton of attention to him in the car via singing and reaching around so he can hold my hand because he screams the whole way. Joy!!

However my husband took him all last night so I got about 7 straight hours of sleep. Wow.


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## Rebekah (Jan 15, 2002)

Steph--your nights sound soooo hard. I'm glad you got some sleep last night. I also had a 4 hour stretch, which felt heavenly. I actually had energy today and felt positive.

So ds slept until 1:30 but then woke up 6x from then until 7:00/. Interestingly, one time I just patted his belly and he went back to sleep! Of course, this was when he woke up after having been asleep only 30 minutes (and he had nursed nearly an hour before that).

We bought a used crib today. And we meet with the sleep counselor tomorrow.


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## squeakermansmom (Sep 17, 2002)

just wanted to offer some support to all you mamas......i was in a similar position about 5 months ago. my ds was waking hourly if not more. he wanted the nipple in his mouth all night and i found he really couldn't fall back asleep without nursing. i went stretches where i was sleep deprived and wanted to nightwean and then before i would do anything i would have a few good nights and decide not to. i got to a point, however, where i was becoming very resentful of having to nurse all night long. and i really didn't think it was good for ds to wake up so much. long story short, at 15 mos. we partially nightweaned. and let me tell you, IT MADE SUCH A DIFFERENCE. we stopped nursing to sleep although i would offer right before bedtime and i made a pact with myself to not nurse until at least 4 or 5am. i wore a t-shirt instead of a nursing shirt and had a sippy cup on the nightstand. i explained to ds that milkies went night-night and he seemed to get it. he did cry a little, but honestly nothing bad. i prepared myself for the crying and decided if i did nothing else, i needed to be firm.

he now goes to sleep without nursing and usually stays asleep until 4 or so at which time i nurse him off and on until we wake up. if he does wake up before 4, then i just snuggle with him to get him back to sleep.

i don't want to influence anyone to nightwean if there not ready, i just want you to know that it worked for us (at least so far ). we are still dealing with other night time issues (like having to lay next to him to fall asleep, sometimes for 45 minutes or more), but all in all i am very happy with our success.

good luck!

jodi, mom to Joseph, 19 mos.


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## CurlyTop (Jun 18, 2003)

Hi Mommas,

I read all of your posts. My 18 MO DDs both fall asleep in our arms and then sleep together in a twin bed (no pun intended - hehe). They go to sleep around 8-8:30 but sometimes it takes over one hour to get them to sleep. We have a bedtime routine with books, bath, music, milk.

They wake a few times before we go to bed, but seem to be able to cuddle together and fall back asleep. UNTIL... we turn out the lights for our own bedtime. Then they wake and we end up co-sleeping in two separate rooms (mom with one, dad with other). During the night, they wake crying. They are easily cuddled back to sleep with a word and hug from a parent. However they do wake crying 3-4-5-6 times some nights.

I am a WOHM and dh is a SAHD. We are both drained from broken sleep. This past weekend we went on vacation and had a chance to rest. I slept for 3 hours each afternoon! and still went to sleep at 11. I think I'm making up for 18 months of broken sleep punctuated by periods of utter sleep deprivation.

Why do they wake crying? Why do they feel reassured only if a parent is there? Will they REALLY sleep through the night by 2.5 years? Only one year to go!

Thanks for the support thread. I am grateful to you for sharing.

Warmly,
CurlyTop


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## rrr (Aug 8, 2003)

regardless of what you try to do, you will get more sleep and feel more rested if you start taking magnesium at bedtime and again if you get up in the night.

start with the less expensive magnesium oxide, 2.50 for 100 tablet of 250 mg.

you can search the commune and see our other magnesium helps sleep discussions.

maybe daryLLL knows how to give you the links. sorry.

i had one child who slept all night at 8 weeks. and a 3 yr. old who still nurses in the night. he used to wake a lot more.

they have individual needs.

you may reduce night waking by giving real prioity to awake hours nursing.

1. only offer food on a full tummy of breastmilk. nurse first, food second, but only if he/she will nurse well.

2. don't put baby off when they want to nurse.

3. do what you can to create productive nursing sessions.

4. more earlier nursing, less later nursing. it could be that skipping the 10pm nursing is prompting earlier waking. if i'm up at 10, i'd rather nurse then, than at 3







o am

5. examine your diet. remove caffeine, common allergens, etc.

6.MAGNESIUM

rrr


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## Sleepymama (Oct 9, 2003)

OK Magnesium. I got it. Last night we tried hylands calms forte a homeopathic remedy. I put a ground up half tablet in his bedtime bottle. He raced around like a madman for half an hour then CONK! He fell asleep in mid-squeal.

He then slept 8-midnight!!!! Then unfortunately woke at 1, 2, 3, 3:30, 4, 4:30, 5 and up for the day at 5:30. Phew!!

And we are actually nightweaning. Some nights he will go 8 hours without nursing. I am following the Dr. Jay gordon method even though he's a little young for it. He is mostly FFed now anyway (very long story--he has a heart defect and we were separated for his first 3 weeks and I never developed a full supply EPing, yadda yadda) but he still nurses a ton during the day.

Unfortunately he STILL wakes up all night long and now wants to be carried around instead of nursed. Hmmm. I think I prefer nursing! At least I don't have to get up!!

Rebekah tell me about this sleep counselor! I am thinking of asking our ped. for a referral.


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## kathleenE (Nov 14, 2003)

Wow! I suddenly feel so lucky, looking at all of your difficulties! My 5 month old son sleeps in a cradle in his own room (since about a month ago--before it was right next to the bed) and wakes up 2 or 3 times per night; but my hubby does the first feeding with pumped milk, so I sleep from 9 until 3 or so, and just get up for the 2nd one. I just wanted to tell you all how different each baby has been for me (I have three boys, 10 yrs, 7 yrs, and the baby). My first slept thru on his own at 5 months, and I can't tell you what a better mom I was after that started happening. I was so overjoyed, energetic, thrilled, etc, that I think Supermom was born that day. I also noticed that my first enjoyed babbling and cooing in his crib for literally an hour or more in the morning before making even one unhappy noise! Time for coffee drinking, showering, and bathroom needs before I went into his room; and what an incredible joy to hear him freeze with excitement when he heard me come in, and then kick and wave and screech so happily when I appeared. This is something that I missed terribly when I coslept with my 2nd son, who never slept through the night unless he was in the bed with me! I loved sleeping with him; but there was never that magic moment in the morning of him suddenly seeing me and greeting me so happily. Yet, having him in bed with me was the only way to get a full night's sleep.

Number three, who I had at age 41 ten years after my first, is different from both of the others! He appeared to hate sleeping in the bed with me; could not settle down; woke up every time I moved my eyelash one centimeter, and became a much better sleeper in his cradle. I'm a little disappointed; but at least I'm now getting that beautiful concert of coos and talking in the morning before I go in, and the chance to have coffee before he gets up. (I work mornings, so the a.m. is of course very tricky, what with having to get out of the house). Moral of the story: you may believe in cosleeping and have lovely ideals floating about in your head; but each baby responds differently to these, and what is "ideal" for one is a disaster for another!

If any of your babies has a sibling, have you tried having them sleep together? That's what we did when we moved my second son out of our bed. They were both so happy together, being able to see each other, that it made for a wonderful bond between them.

Gotta go--baby's up from his nap!


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## Island Mommy (Mar 26, 2003)

Rebekah, we're waiting with baited breath....what did the sleep counselor say?

Hipumpkins, have you received your tape yet?


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

Got the tape yesterday. Some of it really goes against what I want to believe and some of it makes sense. There wasn't too much new information. It had the typical sit in a chair next to the crib while baby falls asleep and every few days move the chair until you are out of the room. What I did learn was something called "natural sleep time" Ok maybe that wasn't the exact words but essentially it said, if you are putting your baby in the crib to sleep and the baby stands up and cries the baby is not ready for sleep. You have to find your baby's natural time. Then create a routine around that...even if the natuaral time is midnight. Then each night start your routine 15 min to a half hour earlier. This will reset your baby's natural sleep time. It seems to me that Johanna's (my DD) natural time is 9:30 so I am going to start her routine at 9 so she learns to be in bed and falling asleep by 9:30. Then each night after the routine is establised I can move it a bit. It shouldn't too bad for me (If this works) b/c I just want her to go to sleep at 8pm. I hope I explained it right.
Anyway...be advised the tape does encourgage scheduling of breastfed babies but not until 2 mos. While I don't agree with that it doesn't really apply to us anymmore. Luckily the only part of the tape that did apply to us didn't have anything that bothered me.


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## dot2dot (Nov 14, 2003)

Can I join the support? My ds is almost 4 mo and has started waking every 1/2 hour to hour at night if we are lucky. He doesn't want to eat, he just cries and won't go back to sleep on his own (he sleeps next to the bed). So my dh and I are constantly up and down. He wakes slightly less often when sleeping in the bed. This has been going on for two weeks now. He slept so good before! We are also trying NCSS starting with getting a schedule. I hope this doesn't go on for months, we need our sleep!


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## rareimer (Oct 20, 2003)

i'll join you. i'm still not sure what our plan will be, but probably the no-cry sleep solution as well. i bought it months ago, but never really implemented it. now at 8 months, we're all ready to get a bit more sleep.

jasmyn wakes up every couple hours to nurse, which i wouldn't mind so much, it's the waking up in between that bugs me. she wakes so often, and i rock her and nurse her back to sleep all night it seems. we sent dh in there last night, and she wailed her little heart out until i came. (she sleeps in her own room until after we've gone to bed...i am afraid she will fall off our bed, and i like an hour or two in bed of just "us" time.)

my goal is not to get her to sleep through the night, just to reduce wakings a bit. this is really getting hard for me.

gonna try the magnesium for sure. and those hylands calm tablets....do they really work?! i saw them today and hmmed over them.

i hope we can all get some ZZZZs soon!


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## Rebekah (Jan 15, 2002)

Hey! Sorry to take so long to post--I've been so tired the last few days that I can barely function.

Anyway, I think we are making improvements and I feel hopeful. We met with the sleep counselor for an hour and a half and she did an extensive evaulation of him (including stuff like his birth experience). She concluded that he is waking up during each sleep cycle when it is normal to wake up for all people, except that he doesn't know how to get himself back to sleep except by nursing or being carried in a sling--in other words, movement and body contact. She also concluded (after I observed his eating habits and how he sucks at different times during the day) that he isn't always hungry during his nighttime nursings BUT that he is hungry at times and that I'm not nursing enough during the day. (He is a BIG boy and needs LOTS of food--he weighs around 23 lbs at 6 mos.). There are other things she noticed, but these are the main ones.

We are focusing now on the initial bedtime. Among other things, we are putting him to bed earlier (around 6:15, before he is exhausted) and limiting his bedtime routine to 15 minutes. We are putting him in his crib with a sleep positioner and with his head in the corner. We bought a bumper. We are using a transitional object. We are giving him avocado during his last meal (for added fat) and tonight will add some oil to that meal. I'm nursing him more during the day. Anyway, those are the basics, and each night is getting better.

We call her each morning and she tweaks the plan. After he wakes from his initial sleep, we have been bringing him to our bed and continuing as usual. Tonight I'm going to nurse him and then put him back into the crib. I'm still tired, but I see improvements (he is learning to put himself to sleep and doesn't fight being pulled off my nipple like he used to--last night, he just rolled over and went to sleep).


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

rebekah: I'm curious to know...

1) is your baby doing any crying and if so, how does the counsellor suggest you handle it?

2) is the sleep counsellor at all familiar with, or supportive of, attachment parenting?

Wishing you and your baby gentle nights....


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## Sleepymama (Oct 9, 2003)

Yes, I'm interested in knowing what she recommends with crying as well. These are all things that I know from various books. Our problem is that he will not go in the crib at all, even if he is totally asleep he wakes up as soon as we try to lay him down. Then he screams until we pick him up. That sit by the bed stuff just doesn't work for us. He would scream for 24 hours I think if we didn't pick him up. (The longest we tried was about 10 min, but he has cried for several hours in the car even with me stopping every 20 min or so to take him out and calm him down without really stopping or falling asleep even though he is tired. He hates the car!!)

Plus we've had a consistent bedtime routine for months. We've tweaked it a little so that we now end up lying down in bed together instead of carrying him around (usually while nursing). This is working OK--he usually falls asleep in a few minutes but not without nursing. This is however a huge improvement over the hours of walking and nursing and bouncing that we had to do at 4-8 months (that was the WORST time).

Dh and I are switching nights now that he's mostly nightweaned, but he still needs to nurse or have a bottle around 3-4am. I really do think he's hungry at that point. He falls asleep between 7:30 and 8 and last night he actually slept from 8-midnight yay! But then wouldn't settle and woke every 30-60min until he was up for the day at 5AM!!! And needed to nurse or be carried all those times. He is teething and we gave motrin last night and I'm guessing it wore off around midnight. If only I could give him more without waking him up!! I think if there actually were any milk in my breasts he might drink up and go back to sleep. Or not, I don't know since I've never been able to EBF but we haven't been consistently night feeding since he was about 4-5 months old. He is pretty small for his age, 20lbs at almost 11 months and 27" and he doesn't really eat any solid food (his choice) so we don't have the option of filling him up with that. He gets a huge bottle before bed and drinks about 6-7 6oz bottles during the day as well. I don't think he's going hungry but I do think proximity to me is waking him up--he hates blankets and I am freezing so every time my blanket touches him he wakes up. Co-sleeping is clearly not working for us, and I really don't mind it but I think it is making his sleep worse but if I even move several inches away from him in the night he wakes up! I can't win!! I can't even go to the bathroom at night because he wakes up if I leave. And if I take him with me he wakes up anyway because of the noise.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

sleepymama...wow, sounds like you guys have been through alot!

Something you wrote hit home to me, and I wanted to share with you.

My DD has always needed to nurse and/or be rocked to sleep when at home. This wasn't really a problem for us, as she *was* able to be put down once she did fall asleep (well, except for a couple months when she napped in my lap!). Anyways, what I used to do is stay up with her, wait for her to come to me to nurse (or otherwise indicate she wanted to nurse) and if she fell asleep in my lap we went to bed.

When she was around 13 months I began noticing that she was not falling asleep when she was clearly tired, but would stay up and be cranky and miserable. I decided it was time to institute some sort of regular bedtime. I stumbled across the idea of taking her to bed at the same time every night, awake or not, and lying down with her to nurse. The first few times I tried this I thought I was nuts for thinking this would work.... She'd twist around and squirm, pop on and off the breast, and sometimes let out a fuss cry or two of protest, but I was persistent and she'd always go back on the breast and eventually she'd fall asleep. After only a couple weeks of this she was falling asleep within a few minutes of us lying down. Now she goes to bed willingly at the same time every night. I enjoy lying with her, and she goes asleep so fast.


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

Ok last night was VERY difficult. I tried the sittjng next to the bed. Johanna would have none of that. She just reached and cried for me. I would pick her up and lay her down and this did not sit well with her either. up and down and then she got very upset and started really crying so I took her out nursed her and she went to sleep. All in all it took an hour and half. I came here this morning but I was too tired to post my story.

Ok...so tonight After nursing and a bedtime story (Good night Moon) I put her in her crib and she played and ran back and forth (A nightly ritual) She tossed her nuks out of the crib...she loves that little game







: I pick them up. She plays this for a while then she gets a bit fussy. I open the door to her crib and help her lay down (Her crib has a door on it and since I am pretty short it is difficult for me to reach her when she lays down so I use the door) She rolls around. I rub her feet (to prevent standing) She giggles. She rolls some more. She starts to doze. I close the door sit in my chair next to the crib and wala...she falls asleep!!! HOLY COW!!! I couldn't beleive it. It took just under an hour. I am not sure how long she will stay asleep but Iwill update everyone tomorrow.
http://www.babeetenda.com/gif%20images/doormom.gif That is what my crib looks like. That is not me in the pic that is the ad.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

I want to report in on how I'm doing, even though I still haven't figured out what I'm doing, exactly!

So I've continued to establish nighttime routines. Every night, we do a warm bath, a rubdown with lotion, and pajamas. I've added my grandmother's lullaby to the mix. then we nurse to sleep, on the bed.

I really want my ds to sleep in his crib while we aren't in the bedroom, but I can't figure out how to get him down without nursing. And, I don't want to? Because of what Rebekah's sleep counselor said: he's not eating enough during the day to get through the night. So I have to work on this.

Tonight he went down at 8 PM on the dot, even though we had houseguests and that usually makes it hard for him to sleep. He didn't pop back up once an hour, either, which he has been doing lately even though he never did it before he was 8 months. I think he did better sleeping because since I was home, I made sure he ate a good-sized meal of solids, and he nurses much more when I'm here. I assume he'll wake up around 11 or 12 for a feeding, or maybe not even wake up if I play my cards right.

My dh is still finding that it's easier to get ds down for naps during the day if I do a nighttime routine with him at night.


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## Rebekah (Jan 15, 2002)

Piglet: In answer to your question re the sleep counselor, she is knowledgeable about a/p and supportive of it. She does not want me to night wean or give up nursing ds to sleep (because I don't want to do these things). But she isn't a/p like we are insofar as she doesn't think that it is emotionally damaging for babies to CIO. Basically, though, she wants to come up with a plan that works for us within our beliefs.

Ds does cry at first when we put him in the crib. She suggests that we rub his belly and use a mantra. (I've been saying something like "You can do this. You are tired. And I know you can fall asleep.")

Tonight, ds stopped crying after 2 minutes, and fell asleep after 12 minutes. If he wakes before midnight, I'm going to pat his belly but no nursing (as he had so much food today, especially this evening that he shouldn't be hungry). Anytime after midnight but before 2:00, I'm nursing him and putting him back in his crib. After 2:00, he is coming to bed with me and nursing as much as wants. We'll see how it works.


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## Sleepymama (Oct 9, 2003)

Rebekah--that sounds very doable--2 min of crying with you there is not CIO in my opinion. If he will cry a little then be able to fall asleep without being picked up or nursed that is wonderful! I think a week or so of that and he won't be crying at first anymore. 2 min of crying seems to be more of a protest than being scared or hungry or anything like that, and by now he knows that you are there and you will pick him up if he needs it.

I wish mine would do that--but the crying soon reaches tragic epic proportions and would probably end in puking (he's done that in the car) so that kind of technique won't work for us.

And Hipumpkins, your crib is cool! Our is a hand me down from the neighbor that squeaks like a devil. I am short too so I can't lean over to cuddle him in it. The door sounds excellent!


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

Sleepymama

Thanks! I really like it too.

Last night she didin't sleep any sounder just b/c she put herself to sleep. She was actually up MORE! I think, though it was her new nightlight. It may be too bright. We were using the hall light but my husband has trouble sleeping with that on. So we put a low wat in her lamp but it still might be too bright.


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## Rebekah (Jan 15, 2002)

Hipumpkins: For whatever it is worth, our sleep counselor advised that we get black out shades for ds's room to use at nights and for naps (if we ever get to the point of having him nap in there). She thinks he may sleep better in darkness. But every child is different.

Well, ds has a cold, so after his initial sleep in his bed tonight, he will be in our bed. Time to put this sleep training thing on hold until he feels better. Poor little guy.


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## Island Mommy (Mar 26, 2003)

We have also ditched the night light. I had it because dd was waking so often and because we live in a rural area, it's pitch dark at night. However, I've read that all people sleep better in darkness, so as of about 5 nights ago, it's gone.

DD slept a 4-hour stretch 2 nights ago!! First time in about 5 months. I had her in her pram box...it comes off the wheels. She woke a few times and cried out but just rolled over and went back to sleep. The pram box is where she has most of her naps.

Tonight I put her in the box and bounced her on a ball. The full buggy doesn't seem to work in the house. I'm hoping for a repeat of the 4-hour stretch tonight!! Positive thinking. Last night was horrendous, but we were sleeping at my sister's house so everything was unusual for dd.


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## rrr (Aug 8, 2003)

nightnursing is a unique kind of independent behavior in a baby and toddler.

whatever busyness, errands, social distraction, mother working, or other things that influence awake time nursing........

the baby can go to autopilot in the night and balance himself, meeting his innate need for nursing, (which is not just food) and for a certain amount of breastmilk.

especially when she starts to eat solids, it is very easy to get out of balance and end up with too much food and not enough breastmilk.

there's nothing wrong with healthful foods, and they're fun to eat. but not one of them is as complex as breastmilk, or nearly as appropriate for baby's nutrition, digestion, immunity, etc.

baby can also be somewhat dehydrated from this imbalance and not able to process the food for lack of liquid. intestinal discomfort certainly wakes her up to nurse.

the baby seeks enough breastmilk to grow a human brain, which is made up of those special fats and amino acids, etc. that are only in the breastmilk, not in any awake time foods.

they are rarely nursing just for comfort, they are independently managing their lives to the best of their abilities by making contact with you and taking in your milk.

if you read the history of infant feeding, you could see how an infant "sleep counselor" is just another in a long line of "experts" who think they know better than the baby and undermine the intuition of the mother.

co sleeping is an important foundation of the breastfeeding relationship. cosleeping supports breastfeeding. it is important in the more independent lifestyle of the older nursling as described above. you can think of other ways, too.

there are lots of things you can do to reduce night waking, by prioritizing awake time nursing, including at bedtime.

there are a lot of things you can do to get more sleep and wake up better rested, including magnesium supplement at bedtime and in the night. (experiment until you get a dose that makes a diference, full water)

anyone set on weaning, will do so. those with ambivalence, trust your baby.

rrr


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## Sleepymama (Oct 9, 2003)

RRR, thanks a lot. This is exactly the kind of post that makes me feel like crap.

You see, we were not able to exclusively breastfeed because my son was in the hospital awaiting heart surgery for his first 3 weeks of life, and I could not pump more than 8oz a day, no matter how often I pumped, what herbs or drugs I took, or any of the other things the LCs I talked to suggested (and yes, I saw about 4 of them). Our situation was such that my son had to be fed at least every 3 hours a certain amount of liquid to keep the heart shunt the surgeons put in open. The smallest amount of dehydration could have killed him. I could not meet this demand, and I could not do the kind of "marathon nursing" that often works in this situation because of that shunt and his weakness. Add his tiredness and trouble latching and I kept pumping rather than switch to breast only for several months.

After the shunt was no longer necessary and his heart was "fixed" I tried to reduce formula supplements slowly and spent hours and hours nursing and nothing helped.

Now he is mostly FFed, but nurses all day and all night long. Many other women would have weaned. I haven't. Yes, he is probably trying desperately to get more milk out of me but it isn't working and it never will. So I'm sure you didn't mean it, but these kinds of generalizations don't really help me at all, true though they may be. "prioritizing awake time nursing at bedtime" certainly doesn't work for us since he gets maybe a teaspoon of milk.

PS he eats about a tablespoon of "healthy foods" per day, maximum. He doesn't like solids very much.


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## DecemberSun (Jul 6, 2003)

Sleepymama, PLEASE do not take offense to what some of these mamas say... Some of them give absolutely wonderful, heartfelt advice. But others are on a "natural mama high horse" and don't think about what they say before they say it. We are all wonderful mothers, and we all have the right to have our own opinions. Whats is "right" CAN vary from family to family, and I think it is the good mothers who realize that.
I think you and your DH are exceptional parents, taking care of an exceptional child. You have been through so much- it's awesome that you've continued nursing through it all! Even if there's no milk coming out, your son obviously has the bond to the boobie LOL! And, contrary to the belief of some, babies DO nurse for comfort- it's not always for nutritional needs. They want to be close to mama, they want to pacify their sucking needs- so they will breastfeed. If let down occurs, of course they'll keep nursing.
My son "comfort nurses" all the time since he doesn't take any kind of pacifier other than myself. While I do believe he is genuinely hungry at least once at night, he wakes up several times and roots for the breast. My problem is my selfishness. I want to sleep, I don't want to get up out of bed, get DS out of his crib, nurse him to sleep, put him back in bed, etc, etc... I just like to roll over, nurse, and go back to sleep! DS takes all his daytime naps in his bed... But when it comes to night time, he likes to sleep between Mama and Daddy. But, I am going to start putting him in his crib in his own room at night- then I'll actually have to get up and nurse him. I'm glad to have this "support group". Reading about your progress is motivation for me to actually "sleep train" DS once and for all! I don't need to night wean him, but I would very much like him in his own bed at night!


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

Sleepy mama! What I think rrr doesn't realize is that this thread is for SUPPORT of gentle sleep training. I respect you for doing all you could for your little baby. It could not have been easy and I feel you are trying to do what is best now.
My night last night was more difficult as I chose to not feed her back to sleep for 2 wakings. I am trying that 11 to 5 thing. She fussed initially then I showed her a little picture book and she flipped through that while I rubbed her back or belly. It took an hour both times but she did go back to sleep and she didn't nurse and she didn't cry. She DID fuss a bit but it more of protest then crying. No tears even.


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## pip (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:

the baby seeks enough breastmilk to grow a human brain, which is made up of those special fats and amino acids, etc. that are only in the breastmilk, not in any awake time foods.
Does this mean babies who don't get breastmilk won't grow a brain? My poor baby !!


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## Mackenziesmom (Nov 19, 2003)

I also have been working with my dd to get her to sleep better at night. I have to have her completely weaned by early Dec (due to some medication I need to start taking soon). I haven't been having quite as hard a time as some of you, but it's been quite a process.

I started about 2 months ago when I was still nursing her to sleep, then night-nursing probably 4-5 times, and the again in the morning. (BTW, dd is 20 months old, so my experience may not be helpful for you parents with younger kids). The first phase was the longest (and really isn't completed yet), where I tried to get her to fall asleep without nursing. While she will go to sleep now, it will take her an hour sometimes to go down, and I often have to walk or rock her to sleep. Just 3 nights ago, I decided I could handle cutting off the tap at night. The first night was the hardest, since dd woke up every 2 hours or so demanding to nurse. My dh had a wonderful idea to give her a sippy cup with some water, just so she'd have the sensation of drinking something, as well as to put a little something in her tummy. It worked most of the time! Men do know something! :LOL Anyway, we've been up a lot the last few nights, but it's been getting easier and easier every night, until hopefully we can stop nursing altogether and get some sleep too.

As to the all night nursing marathons, I have a suggestion for that as well. At about 12 mo. I started taking my dd to a chiropractor who specializes in pregnancy and pediatrics. The way this need to suck was explained to me is that as the cranial bones shift in a growing baby's head, sometimes they get jammed. Specifially the bones related to the ears will cause a baby to want to suck to relieve that pressure, kind of a natural way to move those bones and uncram them. My chiropractor did some cranial-sacral (sp?) work on my daughter and that issue was a lot better for us. She still nursed several times a night, but not for an hour at a time anymore, and never for the entire night like before. One way to tell if this might be an issue for your child is if you can see a flat spot on their head, or if they pull on their ears a lot (almost as if they have an ear infection but without the screaming pain). If this is something you are interested in pursuing, let me know and I can try to get my chiro to log on and give you more detailed info.

Good luck to all of you! When it gets really hard, try to remember, this too will pass!


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## Sleepymama (Oct 9, 2003)

Thanks...I just get kind of irked at people who give me generalized advice and know nothing about my situation. Yes, all those things are true, but they don't mean a whole lot when your baby is waking you up every hours for months on end.

And many people have suggested chiropractic or cranio-sacral therapy, especially if the baby had a difficult birth (DS was posterior and had a vacuum extraction). He does pull his ears a lot and I have definitely considered trying to get the insurance to cover it--paying for it ourselves is a little out of reach (we just paid off his neonatologist bill! They won't repossess him now LOL)


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Wow, Sleepymama, you have been through a lot. I'm so impressed that you continued to nurse under these conditions. Probably by now you are over the fear you must have felt when your baby had this heart problem at birth, but reading your description, I could just imagine how scary it was and my eyes filled with tears. Thank God he's okay now (even if he isn't SLEEPING!) I love it that you call him Captain Chaos!

This is a big piece of chutzpah on my part, but maybe a pacifier would help your little guy? My son also won't sleep in the crib, but so far it's been okay for me that we are moving toward getting him in there only very slowly.

rrr, even though your post was totally off base for Sleepymama, it was just right for me. I needed to know that it was okay for me to continue to night nurse. All of the stuff I'm reading--even Mrs. Pantley's rather lovely and sweet book--says to try to break the sleep association with nursing. I'm happy that there is a way of thinking that says this is okay. I'm just looking for him to get more sleep over all, including naps and fewer (not none) night wakings. So far, so good--though he woke up at 4 AM and babbled happily for an hour before we both went back to sleep, this morning







. Then I got up at 6:15 to get ready for work.









Thank goodness for the person who figured out how to roast those pretty red berries on the coffee bush!


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## tiffani (May 17, 2002)

Let me just add this...
everyone is entitled to their opinion (and even to present facts) if you ask for it, although you may not like what you get! rrr was simply making a case for a more natural approach to nightime parenting, rather than all this scheduling and training that so many people seem to be relying on--which exhausted me just to read!
This website is dedicated to "natural family living" and you're subject to ALL the opinions expressed therein--if you want nothing but reassurance that you're doing the right thing by sleep training your child, then visit a mainstream magazine website--hell, you'll come out feeling like mother of the year!
You need information to make informed choices (see how the two words sound the same?) and without it you can't possibly do what's in your child's best interest--unless of course you can figure out how to follow your instincts, which, through years of "child-management" have been nearly erased in most of us--I learned to just trust my kids, as they haven't been "trained" by society just yet. Of course every family must do what is right for them, but some of us have a firm belief that the child's need for mom doesn't stop between the hours of 8 pm to 8 am, and should be respected and treated gently. Can I have my "natural mama high horse" now? I'd be proud to ride one...

sleepymama, kudos to you for realizing that nursing is important to your son, even though he doesn't get much milk--he sounds like a pretty high-needs sleeper and I'm sure the closeness with you will pay off big time in the long run. Your son is still very little (under one, right?) and you should do all you can to help him sleep better, but I don't think you can expect more than 4 or 5 hours from a kid that age (on a good night!). that said, I don't think it's fair of you to attack rrr for giving general advice (and information) to everyone in the discussion--she didn't address it to you personally.
My DD was a round-the-clock, every-2-hour nurser, and didn't start sleeping through the night (5 hrs straight) until she was 3.5 (and at four still has nights where she wakes a few times to nurse). My 2YO son has always been what I consider to be a good sleeper, and usually wakes about 2-5 times (between going down and getting up) to nurse. they do both sleep better if they're not touching me, so we put a bunk bed next to our queen and it works great. I know it's hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel when you're sleep deprived, but they will get there eventually, all on their own, and from what I've read, the kids who have the fewest lasting sleep problems are the ones who are allowed to go at their own pace when it comes to sleep. My kids love to sleep, in total darkness, and have peaceful, happy nights.
I don't mean to change the focus of this thread--I came here wondering if anyone had a magic remedy for better sleep, but realized (thanks in part to rrr, thanks in part to all the crazy tactics I've read) that my kids are doing just fine and it feels better to me to simply meet their nighttime needs as willingly as I do their daytime needs, and before I know it they'll be sleeping on their own until noon every day...
Good luck to you all!


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## SpiralWoman (Jul 2, 2002)

Quote:

But our main objectives are to help him take regular naps and to be able to sleep in his crib when we aren't in the bed with him.
this is exactly my main objective. I have read everyone's posts while DS sleeps, so I am very very lucky in that he will sleep in the middle night with just DH in bed, not me. I have to encourage him to get as much breast milk as he can bcz we have a mysteriuos problem with our breastfeeding that I am now at peace with in my heart, but anyway, I have the luxury of sleeping in & napping with him, so I can be up in the middle of the nite & nite weaning would be bad for us.

However, I am concerned about his safety napping in the big bed. My solution right now is to stay in bed with him during the entire nap. Sometimes it is ok for me, sometimes not & then when I have to go potty or get bored, I get up & he wakes up. I also worry he doesn't get enough good sleep bcz when he falls asleep on my lap, shifting wakes him up & then that 20 or 30 minutes is all he gets. The few times he falls asleep in his carseat, I just run inside to get a book & read in the car next to him until he wakes & he gets some 1-2 hr naps that way.

So, maybe I should start a nap thread over in LwaB, but napping & sleeping/night parenting seem so tied together.

Good luck everybody, Maria


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## rrr (Aug 8, 2003)

rrr did not address sleepymama or her particular situation.

i expounded on the role of night nursing in older babies, which is poorly understood and rarely discussed.

popular myths like. "infants are able to sleep through the night at 8 weeks", (ezzo), are much better known, than any legitimate reasons to nurse older babies and toddlers at night. and there are many helpful and healthful reasons.

pediatricians are ignorant on this topic and habitually ask if baby is sleeping in his own space at every appointment. it's rare that a dr. would cite the research that shows that babies of any age are less likely to die of sids, for example, if they sleep with the mother.

they are not familiar with reverse cycling, which is really a healthy pattern for babies whose mothers are away or busy during the day. they nurse in the morning, and when the mom gets home, at bedtime, and frequently during the night.

some toddlers become so busy during the day, that they start a kind of reverse cycling on their own, making up the breastmilk at night that they need.

prioritizing daytime nursing can help reduce night waking for some babies.

mothers who take magnesium at bedtime will probably get more rest, regardless of what the baby is doing.

what is the value of an open discussion?

what is the value of an open discussion?

your experience will help someone, but maybe it's not for me today.

my experience may be good news for someone else participating in the thread.

rrr


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## Sleepymama (Oct 9, 2003)

Yes, your points are very valid tiffani. I know no one was addressing me in particular, and I was feeling pretty low yesterday morning when he kept wanting me instead of the bottle, then screaming because he was hungry. I know all these things about the value of co-sleeping, night nursing, etc. But I don't think anyone here is advocating an ezzo style or ferber style CIO. No one here would even consider letting their baby cry alone in a crib (I think?? Why else would we be here?)

And I completely agree that sleeping more than 4-5 hours is not reasonable for most babies in their first couple of years. But most of us here (well, me at least) had a baby that woke up every half hour. If he would sleep 2-3 hours at a time I would do a happy joyous dance!! With some gentle routines (which I don't even like to call sleep training but sleep teaching--like I teach him how to eat and pet the kitty nicely) he now sleeps 3-4 hours at the beginning of the night, but still wakes up every hour after that. I have taken this as the first step towards waking maybe 2-4 times a night, which is what I would be very satisfied with.

I know it is very common, but I just don't think it's healthy for babies to wake up every half hour. When he did this he was so cranky all the time and slept so fitfully, refused to nap and was just generally an unhappy baby (from about 4-5 months on). Now he naps better and is generally happier. We still cosleep, though we did briefly try the crib and soon decided it wouldn't work, and I night nurse on the nights that I'm with him though I try to get him back to sleep without nursing first, and try not to let him fall asleep nursing but remove the nipple and hug him back to sleep. Dh and I switch nights so we each get a full night's sleep every other night. Obviously DH doesn't have any boobs so he doesn't nurse on those nights but does get a bottle once in the early morning when he wants it.

He has not suffered, as far as I can tell, any detrimental effects from my gentle methods (many taken from the no cry sleep solution) but is generally happy (except when teething of course) and is his normal playful high-needs self. Happier even!! I really do think that a baby under 6 months or so should be left to sleep however he/she needs to, and it does depend on the baby, but there came a time about a month ago when I sensed he was "ready" to be taught to fall asleep differently. I used my instincts on this, not what any book told me, though I did follow many methods I read in books or on the 'net. Instead of being carried around, he now falls asleep while laying next to me or DH. This is a huge improvement. And he sleeps more soundly. We still have many bad nights, but on the whole I think we are a happier family and isn't that the point?

Those of you who can live through half hour wakings for 2-3 years are better moms than me, and I freely admit my weakness. It has made me feel better to do something about it rather than feel so helpless and trapped by it. I don't need to blather on about my PPD struggle but our BF relationship and lack of sleep was a big part of it. I really took Dr. Sears' advice to heart: when you resent it, change it! For a long time I didn't think he was ready, so I didn't. Then I didn't know how. But I ignored my doctor's mainstream advice, did a lot of research, and did it my own way, trusting my baby but also trusting that he could sleep better and for longer periods.

That's what this thread is for I think. All of us would go to mainstream parenting boards if we wanted to ferberize our kids. But we know that is wrong, and that's why we're here (forgive me for speaking for anyone else on this thread). There are few places we can get support for these kinds of gentle methods and I'm glad this thread was started.


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

I agree with you sleepymama. We are not trying to force our babies into some unatural state of sleep. WE are trying to teach them how to sleep. If I don't show her how to sleep (getnly..no CIO) Will she just magically sleep one day? If that day isn't until she is 5 years old I can't do that. I can't wake every hour or 2 all night for the next 5 years. I am a better mommy when I have some sleep. Also I would like to sleep through the night so I can TTC #2 and not be a zombie.
Last night she made it to almost 4 hours!! Both wakings were almost 4 hours apart! I am thrilled. When she woke I did nurse her both times giving up my 11-5 rule before it even got a chance simply b/c she had gone so long it was a natural way to get her right back to sleep. The fitful every couple hours wakings are the ones I want to to do wthout.


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## Kimba (Apr 1, 2003)

Steph, (and any others who are interested)

I am a massage therapist and also trained in infant craniosacral work. Even if you can't afford a professional to help your baby, there may be some things you can do yourself. It helps to have good instincts, and it sounds like you do from your posts that I have read.

1) When baby is mellow, lay him face up on the floor, and sit at his head. Put 2 or 3 fingers (palm facing ceiling) under his neck (below occiput for those of you who know anatomy) and put 3 or 4 fingers under his sacrum (tailbone). Close your eyes and see if you feel any pulsing or movement. When any movement "steadies" itself, or feels "right", take your fingers away. If you think you feel something, you do!

2) Put one hand on either side of baby's head, thumbs in front of the ears, fingers behind the ears. Again, close your eyes and see if you feel any pulsing, or expanding motions. Wait until you feel a steady beat, or it feels "right" and remove your hands.

Those are just 2 simple things that can help the cranial bones readjust and the cerebrospinal fluid circulate more freely. I'm not making any guarantees that it will help your baby sleep, but many people have had good experience with craniosacral in general.

Good luck!

Kimba


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## onegr8mom03 (Oct 9, 2003)

rrr

i can't find any info threads on magnesium and when and how and why to take it for sleep. I got some but how much to take, how often? what does it do?

Thanks


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## Sleepymama (Oct 9, 2003)

Kimba thank you! If I can get him to lie still (always a major event LOL) I will definitely try it. I know what places you are talking about. I actually put my own fingers under my occiput while lying down and it relaxes my neck (always my favorite part of the massages I get about once a year). I think if I try it right when he wakes up from a nap, or maybe even while he's asleep, he might be more willing. Of course it will wake him up, but if he's about to wake up at the end of the nap it just might work.

Those of you with almost toddlers know what I mean about the not lying still...he thinks that he laid still for months and shouldn't have to do it anymore! Diaper changes are olympic wrestling events!


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## rrr (Aug 8, 2003)

onegr8momo3,

wow, did i get that right? hard name.

we've discussed magnesium extensively in a couple other threads recently. you could search the commune for magnesium.

there's one called "does anyone else's baby wake 10 times a night?", or similar.

google magnesium and find "magnesium deficiency catastrophe" and "rapid recovery from depression using magnesium"

magnesium oxide works well for me, although it is not very well absorbed compared to some other forms. there are several forms of magnesium. magnesium glycinate is chelated with the amino acid glycinate, and is to be very well absorbed. it is also expensive. so it's ok to start with magnesium oxide or mg citrate and see how it goes. the poor absorption is demonstrated by a laxative effect

if you're brestfeeding, you are probably taking a calcium supplement that adds up to 500 or 600 mg a day. the supplement may or may not have mag in it. if it does, it's likely to be in a ratio of 2:1. this is the ratio found in our bones, and that's why they make the supplement that way. but it doesn't take into account that magnesium is often poorly absorbed and also lost from the body due to any kind of stress, including sleeplessness.

there is good evidence to support taking cal : mag in a 1:1 ratio. your body relies on magnesium to perform many, many processes. making breastmilk is certainly one of them. you can research this easily on line.

if you have mg oxide, 250 mg., try taking 1/2 tablet in the evening, a whole tablet at bedtime when you take your calcium, and them another 1/2 or whole in the middle of the night if you get up. for me, it was the difference between laying awake and falling right back to sleep.

ALWAYS drink a whole glass of water, you are eating rocks, after all.

what kind of mag. do you have?

let me know how it goes.

rrr


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## onegr8mom03 (Oct 9, 2003)

oops
double post


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## onegr8mom03 (Oct 9, 2003)

rrr
(not everyone can have such an easy name as yours *lol*)

Well I just got some mag. that says "as mag oxide and mag glucunate" 250 mg. i've taken for the past two nights and it really seems to help i take one at night and the first night i took one when i woke up int he middle of the night but last night i didn't wait up from 12 - 5 *YAY!!!!* So i didn't bother taking anymore at 5, i went to sleep fast anyway. so the mag does seem to help me sleep, could it also be affecting ds's sleep too? becuase it was great for him to sleep that long! also i've been making more of an effort to feed him during the day. before naps, after naps, at least every hour or two or so when he's awake and making sure the sessions last for awhile instead of this 5 minute stuff he used to do (then wanting to play) I think that's made a big difference. and he's peacefully napping right now. he goes to sleep without a fuss and takes naps without "complaining" now too. Hopefully he'll keep this up but he did sleep 8-10 hours a night between 1 month and 3 months but then changed to waking every two hours or so. but i'm always thankful that at least i got that little break (when you need it the most in the beginning!) so i'll suffer for awhile through anything because i really appreciated that from him so early.

btw i also just remembered that i had some calcium and mag. that i used to take awhile ago when i thought i had chronic fatigue (or depression) let me find it.... it's "calcium 1000 and mag 400, with zinc and copper""calcium carbonate, mag oxide, zine oxide 15 mg, cupric oxide 1 mg" how would that be to take?
it would be nice if i could take them since i already have it.

Thanks for the tips!

Oh yeah I just realized I'm also taking a prenatal supplement that has 200 mg of calcium and in the list of ingredients it has mag. Stearate. But not sure at what mg.

sheryl


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## rrr (Aug 8, 2003)

great!

you can also google chronic fatigue and magnesium and find some papers and discussions about that. i printed some recently for my grandmother.

your old calcium shd. be fine. you just have to experiment and be observant with regard to dose and timing.

in addition to a diet full of veggies of all colors, especially green (magnesium), eperiment with 400 to 500 mg of magnesium, or more if necessary. and i take 500 or 600 mg of calcium in addition to daily yogurt and leafy greens (not together!)

magnesium helps you absorb the calcium (along with vit D, you may get enough of that from sun, or cod liver oil, or mushrooms, in the winter)

calcium contracts the muscles, magnesium smoothes and relaxes them.

as far as baby getting some of that relaxing magnesium, they say that breastmilk is fairly uniform worldwide, but if thay can react to broccoli or chocolate in the milk, why not magnesium?

if you google magnesium you will find some lists of magnesium rich foods, too. wheat germ and avacado are both very high.

let us know how it goes.

rrr


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## Sleepymama (Oct 9, 2003)

Well, DS is teething his top two teeth and has not been sleeping well AT ALL.

His naps are all messed up too--I think he's trying to transition from 3 naps a day to 2. Some days he takes his first nap a couple hours after he wakes up and other days he just goes and goes until the batteries run out. Like today he woke up at 5:30 and didn't fall asleep until almost 11! That's a really long time for him.

Switching nights has been working pretty well for us. He sleeps much better for DH now than he used to, so that's good. But on my nights he has gone back to nursing all night long--he wakes up every hour when the nipple falls out of his mouth







: It's getting a little old (again). But I know his teeth hurt so as soon as they come in I'll try the 7 hour nightweaning again. At least he is going to sleep easier than he used to. A lot less crawling around on the bed!


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## Rebekah (Jan 15, 2002)

My little guy is teething too. I broke down and gave him so baby motrin as the homeopathic teething drops weren't helping. I hate seeing him in such pain. Nursing seems to help him feel better, so we are doing lots of that. Hang in there sleepymama. I'm glad that it is going better for dh.


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## Island Mommy (Mar 26, 2003)

Rebekah, how is your sleep plan going? I am about to start mine today. DD has cut her first 8 teeth so teething should be over for awhile here. She is also healthy (no cold, etc.) so I'm hoping now is a good time to start. I will admit that I let her cry (in my arms) two nights ago. I was just so sick and tired of nursing...we'd done it about 8 times that night already. She cried and fussed in my arms for 20 minutes, then went to sleep. I really don't want to do that again.

So, starting today I am going to try to get her on a consistent schedule. She woke up around 8 a.m., went for a nap from 10:15 to 12 and is now having lunch. We'll try to get her down for her second nap around 3. I think I've been letting her stay up too long between her morning and afternoon nap, then she naps too late and then she doesn't get to sleep until after 9.

I'd like to get to a routine of waking up at around 7:30, napping at 10:00 and 3:00, then to bed around 8 p.m. Does that seem reasonable? Or should I try getting her to bed even earlier? It seems alot of sleep books recommend a 6:30 or 7 p.m. bedtime.


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## Sleepymama (Oct 9, 2003)

Well that sounds pretty much like our routine. DS wakes up between 5-6am, then usually naps around 8am, noon, and 4ish. Then asleep at 8. But he's transitioning to 2 naps at 10 and 3ish and still to bed at 8.

If he would only sleep in until 7! Or at least 6. Most days he's up before 6. It kills me! We've tried earlier bedtimes, later bedtimes, more naps, fewer naps, different naps, and he still wakes up between 5-6. I will light a candle for the wonderful individuals who figured out how to make









Good luck with the plan! I wish DS would just cut the 6 or so teeth I can see waiting and get it over with!


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## hipumpkins (Jul 25, 2003)

I am sending the tape back as it really messed up her actual bedtime. She ended up going to bed around 10:10:30 for almost a week and then her naps were all wrong b/c she was waking up so late. She still woke up through the night.







: So the other day I let her skip her afternoon nap and got her to bed at a reasonable hour 8pm. Tonight I am going to give her a cup of EBM instead of her nursing so we will see how that goes over. I am going to then switch it to water in a couple days. Just another technique I've heard about. So at least now she is going to bed at a proper time.


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