# Circ and tongue-tie?



## homeschoolingmama (Jun 15, 2007)

My 2 month old son is tongue-tied. I researched it and it said it is just a snip at a young age like he is but when he is older it will require a general and stitches. It reminded me of circumcision because as a baby they often don't use pain meds but do more for adults. I am completely against circ so should i be against tongue-tie snipping? Is it cruel like circ? I know circ is way worse but is it like the same thing? There are negatives to being tongue-tied but not being intact. Or are they really negatives for tongue-tie or is that the medical people making stuff up like they do with circ?


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## Ann-Marita (Sep 20, 2003)

Baby boys are generally born with foreskins. It's what is considered normal. Most babies are not born with tongue tie; it's something that is considered out of the ordinary.

So, I see a big difference between cutting off normal, healthy tissue and correcting something that might not be quite right.

I know very little about tongue tie. Except that a friend's dd experienced a slight tongue tie. It did not effect her nursing (much) as a baby, but did effect her speech when she got to talking age. Other older relatives had spoken "funny" when they were little and outgrew it as they matured. My friends opted to not do surgery, and the dd (now a young teen) has no speech impediment now.

You might want to post over in Health & Healing to ask about tongue tie.


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## homeschoolingmama (Jun 15, 2007)

I know that they are hugely different but somewhat similar in the fact that there are probably differing opinions on the matter. I am usually against medical intervention but not sure if I should be this time. It is hard to know who to trust. I wholly trust people in the circ forum because they don't believe in unnecessary medical intervention. They say it is just a snip as an infant but as an adult it is more involved. Just like with circ. Circ it is wrong. It hurts babies too. Would be the same with tongue-tie? I guess I could post this elsewhere. I am not sure I am getting out what I am trying to say.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Tongue tie isn't the way a tongue is meant to be but foreskin is a normal part of the penis, the penis isn't whole with out it.
My 3rd baby (ds2) was tongue tied and I had the midwife clip it when he was 4 days old. He was bf'ing non-stop and my nipples were really suffering (mostly from the bad latch). He was not able to latch correctly and was not getting enough milk, thus the non-stop bf'ing. Luckily he did not lose any weight etc. I have not regretted getting his tongue clipped once. I have no doubt it would have caused weight gain issues and I don't even want to think about what it would have done to my nipples. I know it sounds like the make believe circ stories bu my ds didn't really cry when it was clipped and it barely bled (I mean only a drop or two). Also it literally only took seconds to do. Now the PKU test on the other hand was hell.









There is a school of thought that tongue tie causes digestion problems that can be linked to allergies also.


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## earthmama369 (Jul 29, 2005)

Tongue tie is nothing like circ. I had the same thought when I took my intact little boy to get his tongue tie clipped, and I did a lot of research on frenectomies and frenotomies. Tongue tie is a midline defect. A foreskin is not a defect. Tongue tie kept my baby from nursing well, which impacted both his health and mine. A healthy foreskin benefits my son and has no effect on me, other than the happiness and satisfaction of a mother who knows that her child is healthy and has full function of a normal body part. Tongue tie is not normal and it prevents full function.

OK, so that's the logic. Now the experience.









The frenulum under the tongue develops nerves and becomes thicker over time, but as an infant, it's a thin membrane. (Very different than a foreskin, which has tons of nerves at birth!) I was really nervous when I brought ds in at 4 months old, because he was a little older than they usually like to do it and I was worried he had developed nerve endings and a thicker frenulum by that point. The doctor checked him out once more and said it looked ok, and I laid him down on the examining table. I put my fingers out so ds could hold on and not have his hands in the way, but he wasn't restrained or strapped down beyond keeping his hands busy. The doctor used what looked like a blunt two-tine fork to lift his tongue and a blunt pair of scissors to clip his tongue tie. I was focused intently on ds and he didn't jump or clench or give any sign that he felt the clip. I picked him up right away and nursed him and his latch was much better, although it took 2-3 months for him to really figure out how to coordinate his muscles after that. He bled a couple drops, which mixed with his saliva and looked like more. I freaked out a little until I realized it was diluted with lots of drool, and his onesie and my shirt were ruined (wear old clothes!).

That was the extent of it. I checked his tongue when we got home and the next day and there was no scabbing, no scarring. You could see where the cut was made but it wasn't inflamed at all and now it looks like his big sister's. You can't tell his got his tongue clipped anymore.

*Very* different from my nephew post-circumcision. He had a *wound* and it was for no reason.


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## 2xy (Nov 30, 2008)

My son was tongue-tied. It didn't affect his nursing or speech, so we never bothered with it. The only problem he had was that he couldn't stick out his tongue very far.

As he got older, his mouth grew, and his teeth shifted, the frenulum began to get caught between his bottom front teeth on a frequent basis, which hurt and would cause it to bleed.

He was having other surgery for which he would be put under, anyway, so we had the tongue snipped. Yeah, it needed stitches.


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## latinalonestar (Jan 26, 2008)

Tongue-tie must be corrected if the baby is not able to nurse. It is just a snip at the tongue frenulum to release the tongue, it doesn't remove any part of the tongue. If the baby is able to nurse then there would not be any reason to correct it however many babies can not nurse with tongue tie b/c it prevents them from making the stripping motion necessary to nurse correctly.

Tongue-tie can not be compared to circ but it can be compared to a frenuloplasty. A frenuloplasty is done on an ADULT male if his frenulum that attaches the foreskin is too short, this is called a frenulum breve. (tight banjo string) This does not damage the foreskin or frenulum, it just allows it to lengthen.


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## kriket (Nov 25, 2007)

plus, all babys don't have their tongues clipped at birth in fear for the small percentage that actually do have tongue tie and need a clip.

we don't clip tongues because girls like the way guys with clipped tongues kiss, or because mom/dad had their tongue clipped. KWIM?

Circs are a fashion statement. Tongue clipping essential for some or they would be unable to nurse or talk!


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## moonglowmama (Jan 23, 2002)

They really are not the same thing, as others have already explained.

My daughter was quite tongue-tied, though she could nurse well. After researching I took her in to a midwife who has a lot of experience with doing it, and the procedure took about 3 seconds. If you decide to do it, it really is better to do it when they're little, so as to have less impact on speech development. We did my dd's when she was 4 months old; I only wish we'd done it right away, as she now has speech problems and I wonder if that lapse contributed.

As to the procedure, in our case we took her into the office, laid her on the table and held her arms and chest down (another reason to do ti earlier) and that made her mad and she started crying. Midwife said that was what we wanted as it exposed the frenulum, making it easier and quicker. She put this blunted fork-like instrument around the frenulum to protect the tongue and then it was a simple snip. It bled just slightly. I picked her up and she was fine after that. Honestly, I was a little shaken up because I hated even the process of holding her down, even though it was for less than a minute. But I don't think it hurt her, and she was immediately smiling and started sticking her tongue out, which we hadn't seen before.


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## knucklehead (Mar 12, 2008)

My son was tongue tied and we had it cut. In this case it really is just a little "snip" unlike a circ which is horrific. What I thought was odd was that I had to search for a doc to do it. Our pediatrician wouldn't do it. We ended up at an ENT to snip a thin piece of membrane with scissors. She also told us that if we had waited any longer ( he was 8 weeks old) they would have had to use general anesthesia.









I couldn't wrap my mind around this. If I had wanted my son's penis mutilated I could have found many docs willing to do this, including the pediatricain and my OB. Also, they certainly wouldn't have insisted on general anesthesia.

It makes no sense. Few docs are willing to "clip" a tongue tie, which can lead to a myriad of problems including nursing issues, speech deficits and even dental problems, but they are lining up to torture and mutilate a baby's penis for purely cosmetic reasons. This makes my brain hurt!


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## baybee (Jan 24, 2005)

I'm glad to see this subject mentioned here. I find it interesting that there is so much discussion of tongue tie on the lactation consultant's email lists. They seem to find it lurking around every corner. Makes me nervous. I wonder if it's just too many experts looking for trouble. It's one of the problems of specialization.


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## Dahlea (May 15, 2008)

I have a small tongue tie and wish my mom would have had it taken care of when I was a baby. It doesn't affect my speech or anything, but it does make things like kissing difficult!


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## vintagetroll (Apr 13, 2008)

my son has a tongue tie that I refused to have clipped. Everyone in my family is, and we are also all missing the muscle that allows you to roll your tongue. ( a rare genetic thing) I could not get an answer if the "little clip" was going to affect this anamoly, and since everyone in my family is fine I chose not to. I would have if I didn't have those questions though.
Mine did effect nursing, and after EPing for as long as I could he is on formula. I will always question if I made the right decision healthwise but I do know that you can live happily with a tongue tie, because I do!

oh and I did weigh the fact that I wasn't doing it with my circ stance, mostly because it is "normal" for my family. I did have lingering feelings I was changing something that was healthy. I know thats not totally true, but maybe we are this way( my family only) for a reason


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## wytchywoman (Nov 14, 2006)

I was told by an LC that my youngest was tongue tied and would need to be clipped. I refused to do it and nothing has ever come about of it. He has had to have oral motor therapy for other reasons, but the OT at that time never even mentioned it. I also am tongue tied and didn't even know it until a dentist pointed it out a year ago. I was also told to circ my son "just in case" and nothing has come about of that either.
In a way I kind of understand your analogy. Circ now without anesthesia to prevent later problems that would have to be addressed with a general = clip the frenulum now without anesthesia to prevent future problems that would need to be addressed with a general. I can see where you are coming from and my stance on the tongue tie is the same as circing. It's a surgery, no matter how minor they try to pass it off as, it's still surgery. Why do it unless you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's needed right now?


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## 123 (Jun 16, 2005)

My younger son was also tongue tied. My sister's daughter had had issues with her tongue that caused lots of nursing problems and I didn't want to risk that. So I let them clip it in the hospital (with dh and I present). I also thought about the circ issue when this happened. But it's like pp's said, the foreskin is normal and has positive functions while a tongue tie is not normal and often causes problems. My son cried, but only had one drop of blood and was easily soothed. Also it was immediately obvious that his latch was better afterward.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

One of the reasons a lot of doctors pooh-pooh the idea that tongue tie is a problem or needs to be corrected in some babies is that back in the day, like in the 1930s and 40s or thereabouts, many babies had their tongue frenula clipped because it was thought that it would promote better speech and articulation.







My aunt, born in 1936, had it done when she was a baby. She could touch her nose with her tongue, but other than that it had no benefit.

So there was a time when tongue frenulum clipping was a fad, done to many babies for no good reason, for bogus reasons. Much like infant circumcision.

But -- as all the previous posters have pointed out -- true tongue tie is an abnormal condition that can jeopardize nursing and normal speech development. And its remedy, when done young enough, is minimally invasive. So I think it's a very, very different thing to clip a baby's tongue so that he can nurse and learn to speak properly, or to cut his foreskin off for (insert bogus reason in here) causing a great deal of pain and suffering.


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## MommytoB (Jan 18, 2006)

I totall agree with what everyone said foreskin isn't a birth defect .

tongue ties and cross eyes are birth defect.

Suprisingly cross eye surgery and circ have much in common they are done for cosmetic purposes .

Cross eyes you can still see out of them but many parents don't like the way they look so they put their kids through an eye surgery to move the muscle so they can put the eyes back into normal position.

http://www.strabismus.org/surgery_crossed_eyes.html


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## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

I totally get the thought process that connects this to the circ issue.

My son was born with a moderate tongue tie. After a lot of research, I opted to leave it. From what I researched, unless the latch is terrible and the baby is unable to nurse and receive sufficient nourishment, the idea is to leave it alone.

My son's has stretched over time and he can clearly stick his tongue out of his mouth. He is 10 months now. It's not a problem for him and I am glad I did not do anything with it.


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## homeschoolingmama (Jun 15, 2007)

How do I know if he is nursing properly? It seems like I don't have enough milk. I have something called SPD - Sensory Processing Disorder. I have a hard time being touched lightly. Nursing is awful. He nurses but sometimes needs a few ounces of formula a day. I want to just nurse but I can't handle nursing him all the time to get my milk up. Could this be the reason my milk has gone down? When he nurses I feel the letdown. He does eat but sometimes he needs a top up. How can I find out?


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## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

Ds2 had a severe tongue tie. He literally could not move his tongue. I found someone to clip it when he was 6 weeks old. Went pretty much like the other posters have said, except that she swaddled him to keep his hands out of the way. He freaked about being swaddled & managed to get out of it the first time. She literally handed him back to me before I even realized she'd cut the tie. His cry didn't change at all when she did it, I honestly think he didn't even notice.

There was a tiny bit of blood which stopped when I nursed him & he was a much happier baby to be able to move his tongue. I'm sure his speech problems would be much, much worse if it hadn't been clipped.


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## Devaskyla (Oct 5, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *homeschoolingmama* 
How do I know if he is nursing properly?

How do your nipples look/feel when he's nursing? Does it hurt a lot? Are the kind of mangled looking after? Does it take him a long time to get a let down?


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## PuppyFluffer (Mar 18, 2002)

I think you really need to find a local La Leche League in your area or a lactation consultant for some real life help. There's nothing like someone who's educated seeing him latch and nurse to know how it's going.

I'd post in the Breastfeeding forum and seek help there, maybe in Breastfeeding Challenges? You should get some good advice there.

From what I recall when I was looking into this, the main issue is whether the baby can latch on to the areola some. They need to be able to get as much of the colored part of the nipple into their mouth as opposed to just the actual nipple. From there, the tongue works on the underside of the nipple and helps to draw the milk out. If they can't extend the tongue well enough to do so, they can have trouble getting enough.

Does his frenulum under the tongue hold the tongue in a heart shape? Is it attached all the way to the edge of the tongue? Have you looked at online pictures of infant tongue tie?


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## homeschoolingmama (Jun 15, 2007)

No one has told us that it is a tongue-tie but I know it is. His frenulum is all the way to the tip and it makes a line in the center of his tongue which is I guess the heart you are talking about. I am going to meet with someone to see if he is nursing properly. Thanks everyone.


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## kriket (Nov 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wytchywoman* 
Why do it unless you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's needed right now?

tru' dat.

Or at least be able to weigh your options. I was going to say something about circs harming the natural function of the organ and clipping returning to normal the function.

But if you don't feel the function is impaired! Or that the clip may damage the function! Why would you have it done. So circ and clipping are similar, but quite different.

The cross eye thing... thats a whole other bag of worms. I haven't really thought about it. It is cosmetic, and it is correcting a birth defect, but what is the defect harming? I have heard that homosexuality is a birth defect* if they discover a surgery should we correct it?

*For the record I do not believe that homosexuality is a birth defect and I think people who think it is may be the ones with a birth defect.


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## baybee (Jan 24, 2005)

Look in the baby's mouth when he's crying and see if the tip of the tongue can go right up to the roof of the mouth.


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## cristeen (Jan 20, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wytchywoman* 
Why do it unless you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's needed right now?

I will actually disagree with this. I really wish I had been diagnosed as a child and had it taken care of then. I had a mild tongue tie my entire childhood - mild enough that it didn't interfere with BF (I suppose, since I know I was BF), but bad enough that I did need speech therapy.

I spent 3 years in braces as a teenager, and as an adult I was advised by my dentist that I needed braces (without knowing I'd already had them) because my bottom teeth are tilting outwards. Most definitely shocked by that I went back to the same orthodontist I had before, who took a look and concurred. But then he said he wouldn't do it unless I took care of my "tongue thrust", since that was the cause of the problem, it would just keep reoccurring. He referred me to a speech therapist, who took one look at the tongue thrust and told me it was caused by the tie. She said she couldn't do anything about it unless I got it clipped - that was the first time I'd heard that I was tongue tied. "Surgery" was fairly minor in that it took about 3 minutes. A quick numbing of the tongue and a clip and I was out, I didn't need any stitches (but they only did a partial clip). BUT it was sore for well over a week, and i had to constantly remind my (then BF) DH to be careful because even an injudicious kiss hurt.

I've never gone back to have braces again, because of everything involved (speech therapy, surgery and braces), but I definitely have more mobility with my tongue. I'll never be able to extend it very far, but at least now I can touch the roof of my mouth or reach my back teeth.

My point being that if my parents had had it clipped when I was a baby, speech therapy (twice), braces (twice) and possibly even the further surgery they're suggesting now wouldn't have been necessary because I would have had the normal movement of my tongue.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Tongue tie debate is actually off-topic to TCAC. Please take further discussion to Breastfeeding Challenges or Health and Healing. Tongue-tie is an important topic (here's a great website), but I just ask that we keep the discussion about TCAC. Sorry to have to step in


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## luna-belle (Aug 23, 2007)

I have not read your other responses but wanted to share my experience. My DS was severely tongue tied at birth. However, it did not affect our bfing and so I did not do anything to alter it.
He is now 21 months old and his tongue is just like everyone elses. It corrected itself almost overnight around 18 mos.
I had read that it can correct itself by the age of 2 in many cases and ours was on of them.
Tongue tie is genetic. DH was tongue tied and so was SIL. They both were snipped. DH has no effects from it. SIL has a ball of tissue under her tongue.


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## 2boyzmama (Jun 4, 2007)

To bring the conversation back around to circ...my local LLL chapter held a special meeting regarding tongue tie where several dentists came in to discuss it and the issues it causes with breastfeeding, speech, tooth alignment, etc. One thing the dentist mentioned was that since the decline in RIC, there has been an increase in undiagnosed (or later diagnosed) tongue tie, he said that the drs used to check the tongue frenulum while waiting for the circ to stop bleeding (shudder) and would clip it then if necessary.

Also, when breastfeeding fell out of style a generation or two ago, the need to correct tongue tie became less...after all, most tongue tied babies can still suck on a bottle even if they can't breastfeed. So now most pediatricians aren't trained to check anything relating to oral development when a baby is having breastfeeding problems, they just tell mom to give a bottle, which "cures" the feeding problems.

But, I digress from circ.

I did discuss with the dentist his assurance that it's "just a little snip", I said "yeah, that's what they used to say about RIC, and we all know that to not be true at all." He said that there aren't nearly as many nerves or blood vessels in that part of the mouth, so it truly is "just a snip". I asked about the age (Older babies needing anesthesia) and he said that it's actually more of an issue doing it safely when an older (larger, stronger) child could squirm or move when sharp instruments are near sensitive areas, plus the larger the child, the more skin needs to be clipped, which could increase bleeding. So it is preferable to have the child in a more controlled environment (sedated or anesthetized).

So yes, I've heard the two topics (tongue tie and RIC) discussed in correlation, sort of. I would never hesitate to have my child's frenulun clipped if he/she was tongue tied, however I would insist on pain relief (orajel at least!).


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

First of all, the correct term is not "tongue-tie;" it is "short frenulum."

Both the penis and the tongue have a frenulum, which unfortunately gets cut all too often. Yes, it is very similar.

Speech therapy helped my son overcome his short tongue-frenulum. And yes, my intactivism definitely made me decide not to cut healthy tissue of any sort.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

DS had a pretty severe tongue-tie and he had the surgery at 6 days old. There are several differences between tongue-tie surgery and circ.

TTS is usually performed by an ENT Dr., who specializes in surgeries of the mouth. RIC is usually performed by an OB/GYN or a pediatrician, niether of whom specialize in penises.
Before DS's TTS the Dr thoroughly numbed the area. There are estimates as high as 80% of RIC are done without any real pain relief.
DS's TTS was not performed till he was dx with a problem and 2 different Drs were consulted, both agreeing that the condition was severe enough to cause speech problems, as well as the nursing problems that were already evident. RIC was offered to me multiple time by a Dr who had never once looked at DS's penis (well I guess he looked at it for about 2 seconds before declaring DS a boy.)
TTS is equally used for boys and girls. RIC is illegal for girls, but encourageded for boys.
The funny thing was that every nurse/receptionist/LC assured me that it was a much simpler proceedure than his circ had been. Which left me constantly saying "but he isn't circumcised."


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 

TTS is usually performed by an ENT Dr., who specializes in surgeries of the mouth. RIC is usually performed by an OB/GYN or a pediatrician, niether of whom specialize in penises.
TTS is equally used for boys and girls. RIC is illegal for girls, but encourageded for boys.







So would it make you feel better if circs were performed by urologists?

And yes RIC is illegal for girls in America, but there are a lot of places were circumcision is performed on girls. So the gender argument doesn't really hold water.


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## ann_of_loxley (Sep 21, 2007)

If the tongue tie is not causing any problems - then why snip it?

However, and most people don't even know its the cause a lot of the time due to poor advice, etc , tongue tie can cause some serious problems - My breastfeeding relationship with my son is ruined. If I knew what I know now then - I would have had his tongue tie snipped right away. Because I now know that both my DH and I are tongue tied (I didn't know he was as well!) - being no genetesis though, I feel I can safely assume my next child will also be tongue tied. I am not taking any chances and getting it snipped as soon as it shows _any_ problems with breastfeeding them ...And the sooner the better! - its bad enough I ended up with a section with my DS. I don't really know how to explain the ache my nipples feel. They are there to feed. And pumping was far from easy.







I can't honestly see how anyone can be against tongue tie across the board - especially after what I went through, and its not just me - its hundreds of mothers around the world!

My son is now 3.5 years old - and he _can't_ lick his lips (its still pretty severe). So far, it hasn't bothered either of us though any further - but if it does pose serious problems for him in the future (and I am thinking like with speech, etc) - then we might get it snipped (it might just be left up to him to decide though of course). I finally got mine snipped at the age of 8 - it was not nice (and I still have other mouth problems that will never be fixed). I hate to think my son might have to go through that.

Though circumsision can be done for medically necessary reasons - its not really like snipping a tongue tie. Foreskin is not a birth defect like PP have said above. Snipping tongue tie used to be done routinely - all it took was a midwifes long finger nail slipped under the tongue and it was done painlessly (there are no blood vessels or never endings in that part of the skin at such a young age) in seconds right after birth. Not surprisingly, once that practiced stopped - breastfeeding dropped dramitacally!


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## groovynaturemama (Mar 8, 2007)

dd had a short frenulum; way short, very heart shaped tongue. she couldn't nurse, couldn't get her tongue to the roof of her mouth, past her bottom lip, even past her gums, really, couldn't create suction at the breast, etc. she got dehydrated, and lost an entire pound after being earthside for 5 days b/c of our nursing troubles. my midwife clipped her tongue at my request. then we had to learn how to latch properly and that took a couple of weeks, supplemental feeders, syringes, etc. dd's tongue is still heart shaped at 24 mos., but her frenulum is not tight at all. without my midwife clipping her tongue, there is no way i'd have breastfed...it was not physically possible with that tight of a frenulum.

all that being said, i WON'T circ my son, but if he is born tongue tied and it effects latching, i would clip his tongue in a heartbeat.

i actually know someone who never was diagnosed with a tongue tie until lonag after he was talking. he was bottle fed, so there was never a known "issue", but after he was about 5 and still couldn't say certain words properly, it was discovered. he spent YEARS in speech therapy, had his tongue clipped under sedation, and all around had a hard time (and still does at 21) saying certain words.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Clipping the tongue tie is NOTHING like a circumcision. I am so grateful my midwife had no issue clipping it and my son got to continue to breastfeed. I am actually quite taken aback that anyone would prefer my son have been formula fed/bottle fed over easily fixing a minor birth defect that allowed him to get enough milk from the breast and spared my nipples a great deal of pain/damage. At 2.5 he is still happily breastfeeding.

Circumcision is not fixing anything and only takes away, foreskin is not a birth defect. A tongue tie is a minor mid-line birth defect and it can cause a lot of issues with breastfeeding and speech etc later down the road. Clipping a tongue tie is truly a quick and simple procedure. And we know circumcision is not.

Ann, I am so sorry you went through that.


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## Treece (Apr 5, 2006)

Wow. I feel that my ds and I are very fortunate. He is tongue tied, though has never been "diagnosed" per se. It has caused us no problems, although my nipples were sore a little longer with him than with ds1. I doubt we will have it clipped. I'm on the fence on this one. I really am against surgery on newborns that has no life/death issue involved (not gaining weight is and in those cases it's best). Our son is healthy at 14 mo. If it does start to cause probs, we'll consider it. But not before.

It's not like circ at all, though. In that parents who circ rarely give it a second thought. Parents who chose/don't chose tts, weigh it like other surgeries. I know that he may have a better life with the surgery, possibly. However,I do not know taht and his doc has never suggested anything, and like I said we've never had any issues breastfeeding. We would have with circ though......


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## latinalonestar (Jan 26, 2008)

Tongue tie corrects the same condition as a frenulum breve in adult men. If the frenulum breve is causing a man pain or interfering with intercourse/masturbation then he should undergo a frenuloplasty to allow the frenulum to lengthen. If he experiences no problems then it can be left alone.

The tongue-tie is the same. If it is interfering with nursing then it should be treated.

Now if doctors lopped off the entire tongue just to correct the tongue-tie, then you could compare it to circ. There are some urologist out there that tell men with a frenulum breve that they need a circumcision to correct the problem.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *A&A* 
So would it make you feel better if circs were performed by urologists?

On the rare occasions that a man has an actual problem with his foreskin (say gangreen brought on by diabetes) and he goes to a _competent_ urologist who dx him with this actual condition. Then that qualified urologist performs a circ on the man. Then I would feel better about it.

Quote:

And yes RIC is illegal for girls in America, but there are a lot of places were circumcision is performed on girls. So the gender argument doesn't really hold water.
So, if I have a girl you think I _should_ take her to one of those places and have her circ'd?

We are comparing tongue-tie surgery performed in the US to circ performed in the US. To bring in what happens in other countries, then one needs to also talk about things like scarring, etc that are perform on children in other countries.

In the US, we have a double standard for circ. It's ok for boys but not for girls. Though the two surgeries are medically similar with similar risks, consequences, and benefits; one is consider horrific and the other is just no big deal. The assignment of horrific to one and no big deal to the other is based solely on cultural norms, not on medical analasis.

Tongue-tie surgery is done for purely medical reasons. Whether the medical necessity iis present for a given patient is decided based on an examination of the patient, not on the arbitary culturally based standard of gender.

Whether or not a given patient should or shouldn't have his/her tongue-tie clipped should be determined on a case by case basis. This needs to be determined by a competent medical examination.

If you have a healthy normal boy in this country a Dr is going to offer to circ him. Not b/c the boy has a defect, not b/c the child has a problem using his penis, not b/c the Dr has examined his penis and determined that he has a condition. It is simply offered b/c the parent might want it.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Treece* 
Wow. I feel that my ds and I are very fortunate. He is tongue tied, though has never been "diagnosed" per se. It has caused us no problems, although my nipples were sore a little longer with him than with ds1. I doubt we will have it clipped. I'm on the fence on this one. I really am against surgery on newborns that has no life/death issue involved (not gaining weight is and in those cases it's best). Our son is healthy at 14 mo. If it does start to cause probs, we'll consider it. But not before.

It's not like circ at all, though. In that parents who circ rarely give it a second thought. Parents who chose/don't chose tts, weigh it like other surgeries. I know that he may have a better life with the surgery, possibly. However,I do not know taht and his doc has never suggested anything, and like I said we've never had any issues breastfeeding. We would have with circ though......

Yes,

With DS his tongue-tie was very severe, it not only was painful for me to nurse, but he also was having difficulty getting enough milk to gain weight like he needed to (he was 5 1/2 lbs.) Before we agreed to the surgery we talked extensively with his pediatrician. We talked about the risk of the surgery vs the risk of switching to formula. We also discussed the likely hood that even after switching to formula he would end up with speach problems, dental problems, etc down the road if we didn't have it done. Through all this it was still a very hard decission to get it done. It was never treated lightly.

Circ was just offered to me. No one ever tried to discuss _why_ I might want to do it. No one ever acted like it was a medical decision at all.


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## veeeyloova (Aug 18, 2008)

my son isn't circed, but had a tt severe enough to prevent him from bf'ing. he lost over a pound of his birthweight in the first four days of his life because he couldn't eat and we didn't know it. he was snipped at two weeks with no issues at all. they gave him novacaine, and he cried less than when I bathed him!


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## mags (May 4, 2004)

Comparing tongue tie to circ is like comparing apples to oranges!!!!







: My son was so severely tongue tied, I ended up getting his frenulum clipped when he was a little bit over 6 wks old. I was crying every time he nursed, b/c it hurt so much and was ready to quit. The ped who did it said it was the most severe tongue tie he had ever seen and was impressed that I was even able to nurse him for as long as I did. About a wk after it was clipped, I started to notice a dramatic improvement and my son always started to gain a lot more wt.


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## melanie_rabbitbarn (Mar 28, 2007)

My son was tongue-tied, too. His Grandpa is. The LC didn't think it was bad, so we went home from the hospital. But nursing was EXCRUCIATING for me, so we had him clipped at a week old. I don't think I would have continued nursing with that horrific pain, but he's a year old and still nursing.

I didn't see it at all the same as circ. The foreskin doesn't interfere with anything, but the tongue tie was.


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