# Seeking MAJOR advice on my dd and mil.....MAJOR UPDATE..MORE ADVICE PLEASE



## mykdsmomy (Oct 10, 2004)

UPDATE*****

OH MAMAS....I AM SHAKING!!!!!! I just got home from attempting to pick dd up from mil's. We had an agreement (before I even posted my original thread) that dd11 would go over there yesterday evening and stay til 6pm tonight. We went over this several times with dd and dh told mil too.

Ok, so I get there tonight (with other dc in the car) and dd11 asks if she can stay til Mon because she doesnt want to go to Dland with us on Mon. I said no, we told you you have to come home tonight and we're not even going to dland til tues. Mil then asks if dd can come back next weekend for a birthday party for her great aunt (mind you, dh, me and our other dc are not invited), I said no, and mil goes nuts...conversation is as follows

dd11 I dont want to go home
mil : why? what's wrong at home?
dd11, I dont want to go
me: dd, get in the car, please, papa's waiting at home and we already discussed this
mil: I dont know what's going on, dgd but you better listen to mom, i guess
me to mil: dd needs to come home and spend some family time..
mil to me: well i'm family
me: she just needs to be home more
mil: well she's homeschooling, why does she have to be home so much
(mind you, this is all in front of dd)
I at this point send dd into the house for a kleenix and I LAYED INTO MY MIL
me: dd is having some problems at home right now and she needs to be more with dh and me so we can work them out
mil: what's going on? You dont tell me what's going on....
me: dd is having some depression and problems with eating..
mil: well she's not depressed when she's here and now i'm just supposed to send her home all upset?
me: yes, she's my daughter....and you undermined me and started a scene in front of dd. you need to respect that I am the parent....dh told you she could come over every other weekend and you still tried to ask for next weekend in front of dd.
mil: what about me? so I dont get to spend time with her because you want her at home?
me: this is not about you...this is about dd.
mil: (now in front of dd), well I dont know if it's that they dont want you around me or what but you better go....

DD refused to get in the car.....I called dh and wound up leaving because I didnt want my other dc to witness any more and told dd papa was on his way to get her....

MAMAS...HELP.....now I dont want her near my mil ever again....mil doesnt respect us at all....she is undermining us and poisoning my dd's mind

I dont even know where to start.....
I'll "try" to keep it short and simple.....

DD11 (our oldest of four) has always had a very special relationship with my mil. She was her first granchild. My mil is basically mentally/emotionally unstable but in a functioning sort of way. She is a teacher's aide at a local public school....she has pretty intense health problems right now due to cancer she had several years ago. She spoils the crud out of my dd11 (doesnt have the same connection with our other three and it shows







)
We made the mistake of letting our dd11 spend a lot of time with her. She has spent many weekends over there. HUGE MISTAKE.
My mil has pretty much always undermined our authority. I suspect (with good reason) that she talks crap about me and dh behind our back because dd has let a few things slip here and there.

Ok, fast forward to a couple weeks ago. We told dd11 that we were going to pursue another adoption and she freaked out. She said she didnt want to do any more foster care....she constantly tells us we dont care what she wants but please understand no matter what we do for her or what we give her, it's never enough because my mil has basically given her anything she wanted.

Well last week, our dd passed out due to not eating







She has the beginning of an eating disorder.
It is clear to us that she is feeling out of control in many areas of her life.
My mil found out that she passed out and had noticed that she was not eating and told me that she told dd that if she didnt eat, she (mil) would force feed her







: (this is NOT going to help matters).
Anyway....right now, we are feeling like we need to keep her close to home and just really focus on her and her needs. We dont feel like she should be spending (any) much time with my mil BUT....my mil called and asked her to come over and of course dd wants to go but we had to tell mil and dd that she can only go once every other weekend for one night and now mil is really ticked off and wont accept the fact that dd needs to be at home with her "PARENTS". mil has always fought me emotionally for the "mother" role.....it has dh and me in utter frustration. We feel like we screwed up from the get go for letting her have so much involvement in dd's life but now if we were to cut it out completly then dd is going to suffer another loss and she's so fragile right now BUT if we let her keep going to mil's house, then mil will fill her head with crap about me and dh......talk some sense into me, mamas!!!!!! I dont know what to do!!!!!

Example of stupid things mil would do when dd was little. Dh and I were VERY poor when dd was little and mil knew that......well mil would buy dd a bazillion xmas presents but would only let her take a few things home and kept all the cool stuff at mil's house......same with clothes.....
she'll tell dd stuff like "dont tell your mom and dad this or that or they wont let you come over" just lame stuff like that.....

I'm so angry right now that I know i'm not being very articulate but it's just raw emotion and pure exhaustion and frustration coming out.....please throw your opinions/advice at me......


----------



## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

This particular line is a real problem for me:

Quote:

she'll tell dd stuff like "dont tell your mom and dad this or that or they wont let you come over" just lame stuff like that.....
It just screams "Toxic! Bad!"


----------



## Joannarachel (Dec 10, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5*
This particular line is a real problem for me:

It just screams "Toxic! Bad!"









:


----------



## TinkerBelle (Jun 29, 2005)

Keep her visits with MIL limited. It is way obvious that MIL is not good for the child. Before anyone jumps on me, I don't mean "cut her off" totally. But, your DD is having some problems and MIL is not going to help. She is telling your child trash talk behind your back. That is a valid reason to cut out unsupervised visits anyway.


----------



## taz925 (Nov 29, 2001)

No unsupervised visits period. The past is the past. Your DD needs you to stand up to your MIL and just stop her cold. She is wrong to talk about you at all behind your back and that has to stop.


----------



## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Can you visit along with her? That way she'll still see her grandma but there (hopefully) won't be any bad-mouthing of you and DH.

Are you still planning to pursue the adoption? It sounds like your DD could use some stability/constancy in her life right now.


----------



## Sarahbunny (Jun 13, 2006)

Hmmm. What a hard situation. I agree no unsupervised visits for now though - especially if your dd is showing signs of a eating disorder and mil is a fan of trying to force feed her in that situation. That would just push dd farther into it, imo.

Trash talking you is just awful! What does your dh think? It's his mom, right?


----------



## stellimamo (Jan 9, 2006)

Your poor dd1, it must be so hard for her having people that she loves pulling at her. How confusing at her age. That being said MIL sounds like she is only compounding the problems and possibly fueling them (how does mil feel about the forstering/adpotion issue?)

I would let dd1 see mil because totally cutting her off could shake her up even more and make you look like the bad guys, but I too would keep the visits supervised. I would also try to making them outings and family time so it doesn't seem like you are trying to supervise them. Maybe you could plan sleepovers at your place as an excuse for dd1 not going to grandmas house on the weekend. I would try to keep her away from mil as much as possible but I would try to do it in a more covert way. If dd1 thinks "you're out to get grandma" it might make you the bad guy in her eyes.

Best of luck!


----------



## mykdsmomy (Oct 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean*
Can you visit along with her?

Well I have a feeling that if we offered visits like that, neither dd or mil would go for it. They enjoy going shopping and dd likes spending the night....

Thanks for all the advice, mamas.......this is such a difficult situation. DH talked to mil but she doesnt listen....We've put ourselves in such a tough spot and mil wont sit down and listen to us and try to "help" us.....she has her own ideas on how we should raise our dd. (she also gets upset with us because we dont "discipline" our younger kids.)


----------



## Cheshire (Dec 14, 2004)

This is a turning point for your dd. If you can, find a counselor immediately, send your dd by herself and also go as a family (without mil).

Let the counselor guide you through dealing with your mil. This is a sticky situation and it sounds like you need an objective, trained individual to help you through it.

Quit blaming yourself. By taking control now and getting dd the help that she needs she will be relieved by the loving boundaries being set around her. Your mil has no boundaries with dd and has put dd in a grown up position she shouldn't be in. As you well know she should never be exposed to mil's rants about you and your dh, your other kids, the way you treat her (mil), etc.

DD needs help to see mil's instability. I guarantee you she feels it, she feels protective of mil and feels that she is the only one who "gets" her and can defend her. It's time for you and dh to let dd know that you are taking back the role of being her parents through the actions that you take.

If it has gone so far as to involving an eating disorder(I don't believe in the "beginnings of" an eating disorder, she has one right now, plain and simple) she needs more help than you can give her.

I know it is tough right now but it really is the golden opportunity to help your daughter find her way through her teen years and into adulthood. Take advantage of the opportunity and best wishes!


----------



## pageta (Nov 17, 2003)

I think in the short term, dd may be very upset by not seeing mil as much. But in the long run, mil does not sound like someone dd benefits from being around. It sounds like mil has let her have everything she wants - it will only get harder to overcome the negative affect that has on your dd. Right now she may not be eating, but later on, the "issue" may become even more serious. It's only going to get harder, and your dd will thank you in the long run (which may run for ten or more years so hang tight!).

That said, I understand how you feel with the guilt of not letting her go do something she loves. My MIL is pretty good to ds and ds loves to go over there. But the more she sees him, the more opinions she has about our parenting. She doesn't like how I cloth diaper, accuses us of starving him (he's 80th percentile on the charts for weight and 20th for height so no, I don't think so), she lectures us on all sorts of issues as though she is the mother and it is her responsibility to take care of these things. She lectures us to our faces and then complains to all the relatives behind our backs. And most of the time, she has 10% of the information but considers herself to be the all-knowing expert. Her behavior just angers both me and dh. Every child is different - just because she raised her own two boys (who were very different from each other...one very laid back and compliant and the other very hyperactive)...does not make her an expert with ds.

If anyone else watches ds, we have to pay them. MIL watches him for free. But her behavior has become so awful that we haven't gone on dates, we haven't gone to events we wanted to (without ds), and we haven't seen a movie in ages. It's cramped our lifestyle, and I feel bad not letting ds go over there, but at the same time, neither dh or I have any patience for her behavior. At times I feel guilty for denying ds the opportunity to spend time with his grandma, but then I think about the consequences for dh and myself...

It's really hard - I understand how you feel. But from everything you've said, I really think you will be better off in the long run if you establish some clear boundaries now. Hugs!


----------



## khaoskat (May 11, 2006)

My first and foremost recommendation would be to get your daughter into some sort of Counseling and/or Therapy...mostly right now to address her eating issue and eventually to deal with issues brought up/about by MIL.

I do believe that there are a few "inpatient" or extensive outpatient type programs that might be beneficial for her eating issue(s). But right now, that is what you need to be worried about.

I would explain to your MIL that right now, your child is not in a position to be going anywhere without parental supervision due to her current eating disorder(s)/issue(s). That once those issue(s) have been resolved you will again consider letting her visit. I would also explain that by forcing her to eat, all she will do is create further eating issue(s), by potentially making her turn into a purger (bulemia), to prevent MIL from forcing food down her...she will eat to "satisify" MIL, then go puke it up.


----------



## boobear (May 18, 2002)

Tough situation but I think that if I were in your shoes (knowing I have limited info) I'd focus on dd and not another adoption right now. Her eating issues should be addressed by a professional, from what I know of eating issues they are deep and require someone trained in that area. Your dd seems to have a close bond to your mil (put your feelings about mil aside for now). I'd try and figure out how to grow the bond with my dd to be stronger than that of mil, through therapy and time together. One book that I found facinating is "Hold On to Your Kids" by Neufeld & Mate. There have been some wonderful and lengthy threads on this book here at MDC.

The book suggests that parents should court their kids in a way that one would court a mate or new friend (appropriately, of course), that if you wanted a relationship with another person you cultivate it or it doesn't happen. Parents should be doing the same with their kids, not pushing them towards indepence and other friends. Kids will develop a dependency/bond with someone they can trust. There's a lot I could bring up from the book (which I am currently re-reading) but I don't want to assume that I understand what you are going through right now.

I think at 11 years old you still have time to reach her but it will take a lot of work and support from your family. Whatever you do try and be persistent and patient, and (not to be preachy but,) think about what you want for your dd long term and not just for now (this helps me, personally, with my perspective when I've "had it" with my kids or dh). I hope none of this offended you, just some thoughts and suggestions.


----------



## Mama Poot (Jun 12, 2006)

The eating disorder issue made me think of this: People who have eating disorders are, in a way, sick. They need help, they need rest, they need genuine support from people who love them unconditionally. Would you send DD over to visit MIL if she were sick with say, the flu or measles? Heck no, you'd keep her at home in bed until she got better. I think the same approach needs to be taken here. Tell MIL that DD is sick and needs to get better before she can visit again. Or something to that effect.


----------



## mykdsmomy (Oct 10, 2004)

Thanks again, mamas......everything you have all said has made complete sense and it just helps to hear it from outsiders....

Boobear~ we are taking a huge step back from foster/adoption right now. Up until a couple weeks ago, we were going full steam ahead but dd's problems have stopped us dead in our tracks. Right now the focus is on her and the rest of our dc.

Many of you have suggested therapy/counseling and while I agree (I benefited greatly from counseling as an adult), I'm nervous about finding the "right" counselor. I want to find someone who is pro-attatchment/natural family living/pro homeschooling and who supports our faith.....It seems like a tall order.....I dont know...anyone have positive counseling experiences with their children?

Again, thank you all so much.....I cant tell you how comforting it is to have a group of mamas that offer so much great advice and support


----------



## mykdsmomy (Oct 10, 2004)

bumping for vent and help


----------



## stellimamo (Jan 9, 2006)

After reading your update and hearing about your mil's behavior I would have to say that its time to cut mil out completely at least until you get the situation under control w/ your dd. Sounds like your mil is totally trying to play your dd against you and is using her against you. She seems to be more conserned about getting her "play dates" w/ dd than dd's mental health. (mil: what about me? so I dont get to spend time with her because you want her at home?)
Your mil is just stirring the pot and thats definitly not helping here at all. While it might be tramatic for dd to not see mil for awhile (3-4 months) it is certianly not healthy for her to be put between you and your mil, and we all know its not you thats putting her in that ackword possition. DD needs to get her issues sorted out w/o mil issues intertwined. Its obvious that your mil is pretty much beyond reasoning with at this point.

Hang in there... I wish the best of luck...


----------



## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *limabean*
Can you visit along with her? That way she'll still see her grandma but there (hopefully) won't be any bad-mouthing of you and DH.

Are you still planning to pursue the adoption? It sounds like your DD could use some stability/constancy in her life right now.









:

I was going to suggest supervised visits with MIL, as well.


----------



## Getz (May 22, 2005)

Absolutely no more visits with MIL for several months and NO more unsupervised visits EVER. I wouldn't even allow phone calls for awhile and then on speaker phone. MIL is toxic, if she says that crap in front of you, just imagine what she is saying when you are not around.


----------



## MyLittleWonders (Feb 16, 2004)

Major







Judy. I am so sorry it has escalated (though with what you've told me, I'm not surprised














). I definitely agree with cutting off any visits for now (would dh be in favor of no visits at all ... maybe until Christmas time when you all could go over for the holiday?). That's just not something dd needs to be dealing with at all. Do any of your sil's/bil's agree with the toxicity of mil? If so, do you think dd might listen to reason from them rather than from you or dh? And I know you're worried about finding someone good, but I definitely would pursue a therapist for dd (maybe even you, dh, and dd). What about posting in FYT to see if there's someone in this area that would be good. Ugh ... I so don't know otherwise other than to say I love you and give you more cyber







's ... at least until I see you next.


----------



## Jennifer3141 (Mar 7, 2004)

Since you asked, in my honest opinion - your DD not eating is a SCREAM for attnention and incredibly harmful to her health. If this isn't stopped, she may die from this. Due to the seriousness, I don't think this is something that you and your DH can solve unless you have been trained in psychololgy quite a bit and even then you probably shouldn't be treating your own child. You have no choice but to seek out a qualified professional counselor to help your DD recover from this. Your problems with MIL are almost secondary. Your DD is ill. You need to get her to the kind of people who can help her.

Definately interview counselors and definately mention your parenting style but the most important thing here is to get your child help with her eating disorder. Your MIL can bite your fanny until your DD is better.


----------



## shanagirl (Oct 24, 2005)

I'm also going to give feedback you may not want. I knew two girls who were severely anorexic in their teens. In both those situations they were struggling to come out from under hyper-controlling parents (that was the diagnosis of their therapists, not mine). When I read your post about your MIL, what was poignant for me is that whatever problems your daughter is having, she appears to be very comfortable with your MIL, and that is something you need to think about objectively, because that is something positive in her life.

I would be careful being overly harsh with the one person your daughter seems comfortable being with and try to let them have a relationship with minimal interference from you. And try to understand (objectively, not judgmentally) why your dd likes being with MIL so much. I just sense huge power issues between your MIL and you and your dd is in the middle.


----------



## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boobear*
Tough situation but I think that if I were in your shoes (knowing I have limited info) I'd focus on dd and not another adoption right now. Her eating issues should be addressed by a professional, from what I know of eating issues they are deep and require someone trained in that area. Your dd seems to have a close bond to your mil (put your feelings about mil aside for now). I'd try and figure out how to grow the bond with my dd to be stronger than that of mil, through therapy and time together. One book that I found facinating is "Hold On to Your Kids" by Neufeld & Mate. There have been some wonderful and lengthy threads on this book here at MDC.

The book suggests that parents should court their kids in a way that one would court a mate or new friend (appropriately, of course), that if you wanted a relationship with another person you cultivate it or it doesn't happen. Parents should be doing the same with their kids, not pushing them towards indepence and other friends. Kids will develop a dependency/bond with someone they can trust. There's a lot I could bring up from the book (which I am currently re-reading) but I don't want to assume that I understand what you are going through right now.

I think at 11 years old you still have time to reach her but it will take a lot of work and support from your family. Whatever you do try and be persistent and patient, and (not to be preachy but,) think about what you want for your dd long term and not just for now (this helps me, personally, with my perspective when I've "had it" with my kids or dh). I hope none of this offended you, just some thoughts and suggestions.









: to everything. as someone who is much, much closer to my grandmother than my mother- please, don't let go. meet whatever needs MIL is filling so that the trust can switch to you as the mother. and adoption shoud not even be in the realm of possibility until the whole family is on board with it. especially until the eating disorder is resolved for a substantial time period- EDs can be life threatening, they need to be taken seriously and dealt with through professionals and with compassion. I'm not trying to lecture you, obviously you are a loving mama otherwise you wouldn't have even bothered posting this. I hope this difficult time passes quickly and that everything works out


----------



## BellinghamCrunchie (Sep 7, 2005)

I strongly agree with a PP who stated that your DD needs qualified outside assistance. You can't treat this by yourselves. Once she is set up with a qualified professional, I think you should follow that professional's recommendation regarding her grandmother. It is my understanding that eating disorders often develop in families where the parents are overcontrolling. Not allowing her to see grandmother, when that relationship is a positive in her life, may be just one more controlling action that that might dig her in deeper to an eating disorder, not help her get out of it.


----------



## MelMel (Nov 9, 2002)

nak
i agree with the last few posters....

i also have a somewhat toxic, undermining, emotionally needy MIL/gramma of my kids...my dd is her first grandchild and she and her have a nausiating (sp) relationship....she is spoiled and she allows things i would never, things i consider very harmful to girls (pink princess and commercial stuff, bad foods/cows milk, etc) it is extremely frustrating. i read your post and was worried, since our situation could be headed that way...my dd isnt yet 4.

but i also grew up with a controlling mother, and had nobody else in my life i could trust...i felt wronged and stifled, and like my mother hated me. she put me in counciling (even though i felt i wasnt the problem, she was....i didnt know then that there didnt have to be anything wrong with you to go to counceling) it was very discouraging, and i did consider suicide at a few points...i didnt feel i had a future because i couldnt see a way out of the present. i was stuck at home and being there was so tense...i felt unloved and unwanted.

anyway, despite the issues MIL has, your dd may be blind to her faults, and seems to be filling a role right now. your dd needs someone and i would rather MY dd turn to a family member than a friend who could possibly get her in trouble....or get her involved in more deadly 'escape' techniques than spoiling and mom bashing









anyway, as the mom in this, i would allow unlimited contact...give dd some control over her schedule (and her life), but do it LOVINGLY (not begrudgingly) and i would start a journal, writing down all my thoughts and my feelings, and pass it back and forth between me and my dd. no pressure, no control. she could just read and pass it back, or she could write and i would respond, etc.

there are a few things i wish my mom would've told me at the time, she has since mentioned...like how rough it was to be a mom in her teens, and have 2 kids so close in age...problems with my dad who wasnt always around and cared more about partying than being a parent. it wouldnt of changed how i felt about her indifference to me, just that i wouldvt understood it wasnt me, but other factors in her life that were pissing her off.

good luck, it must feel terrible to worry about your precious dd slipping away.


----------



## Lisa Lubner (Feb 27, 2004)

I wouldn't cut contact off either, especially if your daughter wants to spend so much time with her.

BUT... that undermining your parenting should NOT fly. If your daughter is going to have frequent visits with MIL, then it NEEDS to be with the understanding that MIL will respect your parenting choices. If she simply can't do that, then it will not be your fault that your daughter wont be seeing her anymore.


----------



## mykdsmomy (Oct 10, 2004)

To the last few posters, I sincerely appreciate your posts.....but let me add a few things, first, I had an eating disorder when I was dd's age as well as an adult and mine was probably mostly due to my OVER controlling mother....I could write a novel....









My mil has spoiled the crud out of my dd. I give my dd TONS of freedom (maybe too much), We recently redid her room, we've given her her own room despite then having to put our other dc into one room. I probably spend (and always have) more time with dd11 then the other dc because dd has always had my mil as a comparison. Mil actually told dh and me last night (in front of dd), "Well what about me? Why are you punishing me?". My mil is very selfish....she's nearly imoblie right now because of her health and depends in a sick way on my dd for help going places and for company. DD now feels obligated to help her and give her company. We've let this go on long enough. I take full blame for that....but I feel like we need to step in now before we lose dd forever.
We will get her counseling (although mil says she will just force feed her if dd wont eat).....see, it's just more complicated then letting them have that relationship....it's seriously toxic....


----------



## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mykdsmomy*
To the last few posters, I sincerely appreciate your posts.....but let me add a few things, first, I had an eating disorder when I was dd's age as well as an adult and mine was probably mostly due to my OVER controlling mother....I could write a novel....









My mil has spoiled the crud out of my dd. I give my dd TONS of freedom (maybe too much), We recently redid her room, we've given her her own room despite then having to put our other dc into one room. I probably spend (and always have) more time with dd11 then the other dc because dd has always had my mil as a comparison. Mil actually told dh and me last night (in front of dd), "Well what about me? Why are you punishing me?". My mil is very selfish....she's nearly imoblie right now because of her health and depends in a sick way on my dd for help going places and for company. DD now feels obligated to help her and give her company. We've let this go on long enough. I take full blame for that....but I feel like we need to step in now before we lose dd forever.
We will get her counseling (although mil says she will just force feed her if dd wont eat).....see, it's just more complicated then letting them have that relationship....it's seriously toxic....


if mil has stated that she will force feed your daughter to make her eat, then she imho she should not be a part of your family's life right now. she did not ask you how she can help. she said she would do probably the most horrible thing she could do to your daughter. this is not acceptable.

as pp's have stated eating disorder are an illness, and the entire family needs to be on the same page and on board for helping. if your mil has already stated that she would do such a harmful act such as forcing your dd to eat, then she must not be allowed access to your child. period.

if in some way she is able to get past her selfish needs and get with the program on how to help dd, then there is a chance that she could still be involved with your family at this point. but if she is going to undermine you and your family's commitment to helping your dd, then no way no how.

sorry, mama.







this is a very serious situation and some definite boundaries need to be set. i had read your original post and had been wondering how things have been unfolding, and i'm so sorry to hear that the situation has gotten worse.

as for counseling, you had mentioned that you want to find someone that has a certain set of criteria, which is good but please don't delay in finding someone as soon as possible.


----------



## shanagirl (Oct 24, 2005)

mykidsmomy-nice to see your reply. I was afraid after I posted, well, what the heck do I know about her family? But I did want to give some objective feedback to your post.

I would say tho that no family is perfect --there are lots of major flaws. I used to think people who gave dd girly presents (pink clothes, candy) were forcing stereotypes on her and then I wound up having to admit my daughter just loved girly stuff, with no influence from me, and I cringe when I think of the things I returned without her knowing it. We have to recognize what our children love and not criticize it.

I still think your MIL has a place in your family since she and your dd are so close. My grandmother, while a really destructive liar among the adults in our family, doted on me and my times wiht her are some of my best memories of my childhood. While my grandmother could wreak havoc with her lies, she was also the first adult I knew who initiated friendly conversations with minorities (on a bus or el train in Chicago in the late 60s) and openly questioned the church on many things. She was also the only adult who was completely unbothered when my brother came out in his teens. So while there were incredible negatives with her, there were also unique positives.

I would again, given that your MIL is ill, recommend that you try to see her objectively and recognize the good that is between her and your dd. It is actually touching to think that your daughter can help her in some way as long as she is not inflicting needs that your daughter can't handle.

As for the force feeding, honestly, with both my friends, I did see their parents in moments of frustration try to force food in their mouths. They weren't ogres, they were just having a primal reaction to the situation. Only when they went to counseling did they understand the problem was psychological and not a matter of overpowering an uncooperative child. So your MILs reaction is not that unique it is just unenlightened. It would probably help, once you get counseling for your dd, if your MIL could be present when the counselor talks to you so a professional can explain to your MIL what the issues are. I know with my BIL's alchoholism, my husband had to insist that his mother talk to his brother's counselor to understand that 'just drinking beer' can indeed cause alcoholism. She truly didn't think she needed to get it out of the house because it was 'just beer!"

Give your MIL a chance to learn before you quash the relationship. It is too deep. But she needs to be educated. You are just lucky to have some one who loves your dd that much. My dd's grandparents are all dead except for my MIL, who generally doesn't notice much about dd at all.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shanagirl*
Give your MIL a chance to learn before you quash the relationship. It is too deep. But she needs to be educated. You are just lucky to have some one who loves your dd that much. My dd's grandparents are all dead except for my MIL, who generally doesn't notice much about dd at all.









Why do you assume that the OP's MIL loves the grandchild? The MIL in the OP sounds a _lot_ like my grandmother. I also have an eating disorder (not diagnosed, and I'm not sure it's one that has an actual label - but I have a _very_ unhealthy relationship with food). It was largely a gift from my grandmother...the one who wanted me and my sister over all the time, and undermined my parents authority, and tried to spoil us rotten, and said "don't tell your mom, because she won't let you come and visit me". I _loved_ going to my grandma's house when I was young. (What kid wouldn't? Unlimited cookies, candy, ice cream bars, sodapop...Frankenberry with Pepsi for breakfast...Kraft mac'n'cheese with Minute Rice for supper. _But, don't tell mom, because she won't let you come over._) My mom was the enemy in grandma's world, because my mom wouldn't let me eat candy all weekend - I remember practicing my counting by 10's...with my candy wrappers...at about age 5 or 6 - or drink three glasses of sodapop with my breakfast.

That evil woman screwed me up, screwed my sister up, screwed up my cousins, and my brother...all because she "loved" us. She didn't love us - didn't know what it meant. All she cared about was trying to make us love _her_ more than we loved our mother. To this day, I have bizarre eating problems, and no real emotional concept of how much junk food is "normal". I'm obese, and addicted (not in the "ha ha" way so many women joke about, either) to chocolate and sugar. I have serious self-image problems, and sexual issues - all the result of emotional manipulation and junk food "buy offs" from my grandmother.

If I had a time machine, the _only_ thing I'd change about my childhood would be that I'd completely absent myself from that woman's home. My mom's only real regret about her parenting is that she didn't see what was wrong earlier and that she allowed her mother to be a factor in our lives.

I haven't seen anything in the OP's posts that suggests that her dd's grandmother loves her dd. I've seen a lot that suggestst that she's using her dd to fulfill her own emotional needs, putting a huge emotional burden on the girl. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the eating disorder is a manifestation of the stresses being put on the OP's dd by her grandmother's total lack of boundaries and disrespect for the parental relationship.

OP: I understand your desire to find a compatible therapist. But, at this point, I think you need to forget about support for AP and your religion, and find someone who knows how to deal with eating disorders. I also agree that your MIL should be told that, right now, dealing with dd's eating disorder is priority one, and visits are curtailed while you find a therapist and establish a course of treatment. My guess is that her reaction to this will be complete outrage at the fact that you're "stealing" her grand-daughter...and not concern for her grand-daughter's psychological and physical well-being. Of course, I could be wrong. She may not be as twisted as my grandmother - but she sure sounds like it.


----------



## weliveintheforest (Sep 3, 2005)

mykdsmomy








This sounds like a nasty, toxic situation, and I don't know what the best course of actoin is. What did your dh say about the exchange with MIL in front of dd? I think you are doing the right thing to limit time with MIL and agree with previous posters that family counseling, or even just you and dd going to counselling would be helpful.

Stormbride -


----------



## shanagirl (Oct 24, 2005)

Storm Bride -because the OP said the dd and her MIL are close and have spent a lot of time together over the years. Because when the mother came to pick her up the dd didn't want to leave. Kids typically aren't happy being left with someone who doesn't like them and the OP stressed how much time these two have spent together. It does seem clear there is a relationship there --and I think it's a lot more constructive to err on that side than to tell her to trash the relationship if you aren't sure. I'm sure if the MIL didn't love her the granddaughter wouldn't want to be with her. But are you saying the MIL's love has to be pure and other-directed to be 'real'? That doesn't exist. We all love based on our needs. All of us.


----------



## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

First I just want to say to you that although it is probably true that controlling parents get the lion's share of "blame" for some eating disorders of their daughters, I have to say that if you have a mil like you do, being perceived as controlling may be OUT of your control. Compared to her, OF COURSE you are controlling. You are not trying to buy your daughter by giving her rein; you are trying to raise her by giving her guidelines (read: control!).

Your mil might have a certain personality disorder, and therefore there may be no enlightening her, no getting her to adjust what she thinks in any way. These are people who are RIGHT no matter what, forever, no hope of changing them. "It's all about me," is their motto, though they say it about everyone else.

And, in addition to that excellent-sounding book about hanging on to your kids, you might want to grab, "Reviving Ophelia: Saving the Selves of Adolescent Girls " by Mary Pipher. It's a wonderful book about protecting our girls from the enormous pressures to be thin and pretty and perfect, according to the Barbie-esque molds. It's been years since I read it, but I'm pretty sure there's stuff in there about EDs. (Yes, there is, I just picked up a copy today to see. Sept 8) Certainly, it will give you a vocabulary to discuss these matters with; and a view from their eyes, somewhat.

I personally think the damage such a person can cause to a grandchild, along with all the rest of the family in so doing, outweighs the love and "acceptance" she may feel while with g'ma, *but*, I know almost NOTHING about eating disorders in young women, so, if you feel a grain of truth in what others are saying about your DD11 feeling accepted and that right now, and you suffered yourself, so you probably have some sense about it, maybe you should hold off on severing contact until you're all under the supervision of an eating disorders specialist, if then.

Good luck to you. I know this has got to be just agonizing, but, you survived it, and I'm betting that your daughter will, too. Thank goodness you are actively trying to help her, do the right thing, bring the focus onto her needs now. Get help, though. Interview a few, WITH her. See how SHE interacts with prospective MDs. Yeah, give her a little bit of control over who she'll see. It's a different world, even from ten years ago. Even from five. What helped you may not be enough for her.


----------



## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

I think a professional councelor for your daughter is the first order of business. As others have said, eating disorders are serious business and not something to be trifled with. Then, I would ask the councelor what they thought about the situation with your MIL and how to proceed to do the least damage to your daughter.

In the meantime, I would say that, as twisted as it seems, your daughter and MIL have a relationship that it would be bad, for your daughter, to completely severe at the moment. So I would set some guidelines to limit time but not forbid it entirely. If I could do it subtley I would provide more supervision. Maybe no overnights could be the boundary.

For my own sanity, if I were you, I would limit my exposure to this women to the bare minimum. Send your DH to pick up your daughter. Do not get involved in an argument with her in front of your children -- grab daughter's hand and walk away. Remember that it takes two to argue -- you don't have to say anything to the woman. Just claim your daughter and go.

But above all else, find some counceling for your daughter, and the rest of the family if possible.


----------



## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

OMG, she sounds like my MIL. Get professional help....fast.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shanagirl*
Storm Bride -because the OP said the dd and her MIL are close and have spent a lot of time together over the years. Because when the mother came to pick her up the dd didn't want to leave. Kids typically aren't happy being left with someone who doesn't like them and the OP stressed how much time these two have spent together. It does seem clear there is a relationship there --and I think it's a lot more constructive to err on that side than to tell her to trash the relationship if you aren't sure. I'm sure if the MIL didn't love her the granddaughter wouldn't want to be with her.

If the granddaughter knows that her grandmother doesn't love her, she probably won't want to be there. But, the granddaughter thinking her grandmother loves her doesn't make it so. When I was young, I thought my grandmother loved me, too, but she didn't. And, my mom spent most of her young life trying to be close to her mother....not because her mother loved her, but because my mom _wanted_ her mom to feel that way. This woman is interfering - blatantly - in the relationship between her granddaughter and the OP. She's lying and twisting the truth to maintain her "close" relationship with her granddaughter. The fact that the grand_daughter_ didn't want to leave means nothing with respect to how the grand_mother_ feels. Many women don't want to leave abusive partners, either...does that prove that the abuser loves the woman...or is it more likely to indicate that the woman _believes_ he loves her?

Quote:

But are you saying the MIL's love has to be pure and other-directed to be 'real'? That doesn't exist. We all love based on our needs. All of us.
Of course I love people partly based on my needs. But, that still doesn't mean that I can define "love" as being equal to "need". It sounds as though the grandmother in this situation _needs_ her granddaughter, but I didn't seen anything in the OP's posts that sounded like _love_. Love doesn't deliberately undermine the loved one's most important relationships. Love doesn't deliberately lie to and manipulate the loved one in order to claim emotional supremacy. Love has needs, yes - but love also considers the needs of the loved one. I'm sure this grandmother would say that she loves her granddaughter, and the granddaughter may believe it. But, imo, loving someone and being willing to completely undermine the entire foundation of their life are completely incompatible.


----------



## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
I'm sure this grandmother would say that she loves her granddaughter, and the granddaughter may believe it. But, imo, loving someone and being willing to completely undermine the entire foundation of their life are completely incompatible.

Absolutely true, but may not be relevant to the short term problem. If the granddaughter believes that grandma loves her, then tearing her away from that relationship is going to be hurtful, and potentially harmful, to a young girl who is already in the throes of an eating disorder. Long term I think reducing or even elminating time with grandma would be wise. Maybe even helping the girl see for herself that grandma isn't exactly what she says she is. But to tear the two apart appruptly at this moment would seem to do more damage than good. Elminating the relationship with the grandma isn't going to guarentee the girl will turn to her parents for love -- she might find a friend or other relationship that is equally unhealthy or even worse. Or she may withdraw and feel totally isolated -- definitely not what is desired in this situation.

Which is not to say that limits, boundaries, and frank conversations aren't appropriate and necessary with the grandma. And more supervision and a proactive plan to reduce the end-of-visit stress for everyone.


----------



## oregongirlie (Mar 14, 2006)

I would second that this doesn't seem like the best time for fostering a new child.


----------



## TripMom (Aug 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shanagirl*
I'm also going to give feedback you may not want. I knew two girls who were severely anorexic in their teens. In both those situations they were struggling to come out from under hyper-controlling parents (that was the diagnosis of their therapists, not mine). When I read your post about your MIL, what was poignant for me is that whatever problems your daughter is having, she appears to be very comfortable with your MIL, and that is something you need to think about objectively, because that is something positive in her life.

I agree. Eating disorders are rooted in issues around "control" - feeling out of control, and often feeling controlled - usually by parents. I'm sorry to say this to you. Please focus on the eating disorder and what is causing it as the primary issue - and treat everything else secondary.


----------



## shanagirl (Oct 24, 2005)

Storm Bride-- I would never presume to tell a complete stranger to totally trash a relationship if I don't know them and have not actually been around the situation. When I read internet postings, I know there are at least two sides to every story and I'm only hearing one. It is impossible for someone to tell such a complex emotional story objectively. I know I cannot possibly portray my MIL objectively when I talk about her and you obviously can't with your grandmother.

My MIL brings out the worst in me. But dd loves her and I wouldn't deny her that relationship, which is exactly what my mother did for me when her MIL was so awful to her, but so nice to me. Maybe that is what some MILs do when they can't and don't love their daughters in law-- they overcompensate by getting their child to love them. I am convinced that the MIL and DIL relationship is truly the hardest in the world and there is nothing new under that sun.


----------



## mykdsmomy (Oct 10, 2004)

Thanks to all of you who posted. I really appreciate the support and advice.
DD is doing well since the incident with mil the other night. We've spent lots of time alone together and have talked through some things.....
We're definitely hooking up professional help for her too....

DH talked to mil today and all mil kept telling DH was "Why are you doing this to me? She's all I have" DH kept trying to reiterate that this is about our dd not mil....but she didnt want to talk about that......

I think for now minimizing visits is the best thing......


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shanagirl*
Storm Bride-- I would never presume to tell a complete stranger to totally trash a relationship if I don't know them and have not actually been around the situation. When I read internet postings, I know there are at least two sides to every story and I'm only hearing one. It is impossible for someone to tell such a complex emotional story objectively. I know I cannot possibly portray my MIL objectively when I talk about her and you obviously can't with your grandmother.

My MIL brings out the worst in me. But dd loves her and I wouldn't deny her that relationship, which is exactly what my mother did for me when her MIL was so awful to her, but so nice to me. Maybe that is what some MILs do when they can't and don't love their daughters in law-- they overcompensate by getting their child to love them. I am convinced that the MIL and DIL relationship is truly the hardest in the world and there is nothing new under that sun.

I'm sorry - but as soon as the MIL is telling her granddaughter "don't tell your parents", a major line has been crossed. That's totally unacceptable, and is totally unfair to the girl she "loves" so much. Her stated intent to deal with the girl's eating disorder in the fashion she deems best (to force feed her) without paying any attention to the parents plans is not in the girl's best interest, either. I'm not advising the OP to trash the relationship...I'm expressing my opinion that the relationship is already trashed. The MIL and her granddaughter might be close, but a "close" relationshiip doesn't necessarily imply a healthy one...especially when there's an imbalance of power that's being abused.

I'm sure the MIL/DIL relationship _can_ be difficult, but I don't see why it would the "hardest in the world". All relationships have their own challenges, and I certainly have no issues with my MIL. She's a wonderful person and very easy to get along with. She respects our boundaries, and I like her a lot. I know many people who get along really well with their in-laws, with little or no effort. I also know many who don't. I think it really depends on the individuals. My MIL doesn't try to live through her son, nor does she have some weird arbitrary idea of who she should have married. My mom also had a much better relationship with my dad's mom than she ever did (or could have) with her own.

I'm also not sure what you mean by portraying my grandmother objectively. The picture I drew in my post was actually quite kind, as I left out the worst of what she did. She was "nice" to all six of her grandchildren. I'm probably the least damaged and I'm one of the least bitter. The woman was pure poison. Sure - she had her good points, but when somebody is totally toxic, the good points become irrelevant. The woman's been dead for 17 years, and my aunt and one of my cousins are still seething...


----------



## Mimistar34 (Jul 24, 2005)

I would keep DD as FAR away from MIL as possible! Is your hubby in agreement with that?


----------



## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

I think that as a mother it is important to trust your instincts. If your instincts are telling you that you should not allow your DD to be around your MIL right now then you need to trust them.


----------



## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

The discussion about toxic mothers/grandmothers/mothers-in-law is a perfect example of how a victim of a toxic, narcisstic parent / guardian has to fight against society's powerful expectations that we should honor our parents no matter what they do. Fortunately for most people, they don't know what toxic parents do to their kids' self-esteem, and how it can mess up their lives. We're supposed to keep "honoring" them while they keep tearing us down... and watch as they tear down our children in the same ways they tore us down. When does it end? Most professionals in the field say it ends with detachment, and in many cases, total separation.

This discussion isn't about an "imperfect" mother in law, it's about a toxic, invasive, destructive, self-absorbed woman whose mental illness, if I may suggest that she has, is undermining a mother who is trying to save her daughter, steer her toward health and living happily.

"Imperfect" mothers in law who don't leave you shaking with fury and fear for your child's safety are something different; a whole diffenent animal. There are mothers-in-law who, even if you don't really LIKE them, you can deal with, work things out with, put up with, and there are those who will make you feel bad every single time you have contact with them... who will use every opportunity to _badmouth and undermine your relationship with
and every thing you are trying to teach your children. And if that MIL is impervious to any request to compromise her behavior, she is toxic, dangerous, bad. If the lady was a babysitter--someone made this point, didn't they?--if she was a licensed caregiver, you sure would not allow your children to remain in her care.

I am happy to hear that the OP has made a sound decision on what to do for the immediate future. Best of luck to you, OP, in finding a really wonderful caring therapist, and for your daughter in gaining self-esteem and a stronger sense of real power in her life. She's so young. I really ache for her, and for you. We all feel so powerless with this eating disorder issue. I hope you will share her progress. What a great teacher it could be for so many of us with young girls coming up in this society where eating disorders are such a danger. I'm glad your husband is on board with you in resisting his mother's demands for access to your daughter. That's half the battle.

A thousand blessings on you and your family._


----------



## shanagirl (Oct 24, 2005)

So my question is if this woman is so toxic, so awful, so invasive (did I miss the part where she comes over and forces the granddaughter to come over?) so mentally ill, what does it say about a mother who freely admits that she let her daughter spend extended periods with her over years? I got the very strong impression from the OP that she WAS a much used babysitter and caregiver.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the OP, just that you can't have it both ways-- if the MIL was truly the monster some of you are comfortable stating, then why didn't the parents' radar and instincts go off before they accepted what sound like extensive babysitting over the years?

So, assuming the OPs instincts in the past were good, I would guess the MIL is probably not a toxic mentally ill ogre but a flawed elderly person who is physically ill and fearful and, I agree, narcissistic, but narcissism...well, people who are without it are rare and amazing.

As for the MIL issue, it has been on Mothering's boards that I have been struck by how durable a thread starter it is over the years. Simply titled "MIL rant", the postings and responses go on for many screens. I do think it is a uniquely complex relationship for many and I'm fascinated by it. That's what drew me into this thread -- the 'mil' in the title.

But we're still always only hearing one side of the story and I read the posts to try to get a little more than just what's on the surface.


----------



## Brigianna (Mar 13, 2006)

Well, you did ask for advice, so here it is, and I really do mean this in a nice and supportive way. First of all, I would *not* get any kind of outside intervention in your dd's eating problems. Just back way, way off. Don't allow food to become a power struggle. Don't try to coerce, bribe, nag her into eating. Don't bring it up. Don't make comments when she refuses food. Just say "okay" and let it go. Don't give off any pressuring vibes. Don't give any indication that you're bothered or concerned about her not eating. In my opinion, eating disorder "treatment" programs are very cruel. I would only use them as a last of last resorts. But the majority of the time, you get rid of the power struggle, you get rid of the problem.

Secondly, honestly, I do think you were being a little bit unreasonable in the initial interaction with your dd and mil. Yes, your mil was wrong to undermine you in front of your dd, and that is a problem. Your dd and mil obviously have a very close relationship, and it's typical for grandparents to spoil their grandkids. I don't think that's a reason to limit visits. What would have been the problem with letting her stay a little longer, or letting her go to the birthday party? I'm really not meaning to criticize or attack you, but I do think you may be allowing your problems with your mil to influence your opinion of your dd's relationship with her. If your dd and mil have a good relationship, I think that should be encouraged, even if it's different from the relationship your dd has with you. Sometimes kids especially in the pre-teen years just need to get away from mom and dad sometimes and have separate relationships with other people. Of course you're still her parents, but, I'm just guessing here, your dd is probably at an age when she's really wanting to become her own person, and if your mil is helping to facilitate that, I think that's a good thing.


----------



## MyLittleWonders (Feb 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shanagirl*
So my question is if this woman is so toxic, so awful, so invasive (did I miss the part where she comes over and forces the granddaughter to come over?) so mentally ill, what does it say about a mother who freely admits that she let her daughter spend extended periods with her over years? I got the very strong impression from the OP that she WAS a much used babysitter and caregiver.

Your post comes across rather judgmental against the OP and you do not know anything more than simply what she posted. I happen to know her IRL as she's my best friend. Questioning any mother that is dealing with an unhealthy relationship with another family member, questioning why they would begin to allow their child(ren) spend time with said family member, without having anything more than a snippet into the entire family dynamics, isn't right. How do you know that the relationship might have begun fairly stable? How do you know that the relationship didn't begin to show signs of problems until after the connection between the dd and mil was well established? As a parent, you try to do what you think is best for your children. As a parent, you might not be able to stand being in the same room as your il's, but you want your child(ren) to have a relationship with their grandparents, so you grin and bear it. As your child(ren) grow, you realize that maybe this isn't the best situation ... you realize that you have made a possible mistake in allowing the relationship to be as close as it is ... but you feel pulled because your dc love their g'pa or g'ma so much. What do you do? Break their hearts over something they may not understand? So, you try to see if there's another way of looking at it ... talk with some friends or other family members to see if maybe it's just your perspective that's different from reality. As time goes on, you realize your perspective is just fine and there's definitely the festering of a toxic relationship. So, you start laying boundaries. And they get stepped upon. So you re-lay your boundaries, over and over. Finally you can't take it and you come some place like here, hoping that someone will have some words of support and wisdome for you. You don't come here hoping to be judged for allowing your child to stay in a toxic relationship with their grandmother.

As for only hearing one side of the story ... when I'm looking for support, I'm not looking for someone who wants to know the other side of the story. That's like having your child come home from school upset because the teacher yelled at him/her, and you say, "Well, maybe the teacher had a good reason ... I haven't heard her side of the story yet." I'm thinking that wouldn't make your child very happy nor would it make them want to divulge their feelings the next time.


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shanagirl*
So my question is if this woman is so toxic, so awful, so invasive (did I miss the part where she comes over and forces the granddaughter to come over?) so mentally ill, what does it say about a mother who freely admits that she let her daughter spend extended periods with her over years? I got the very strong impression from the OP that she WAS a much used babysitter and caregiver.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the OP, just that you can't have it both ways-- if the MIL was truly the monster some of you are comfortable stating, then why didn't the parents' radar and instincts go off before they accepted what sound like extensive babysitting over the years?

Well, based on what I've seen several times in my life - not just with my grandmother - it's very easy to stuff those instincts when _everyone_ around you, and your society as a whole, says "it's not as bad as you think - grandparents _always_ spoil grandkids - but you can't deprive them of each other, because it would be cruel - etc., etc., etc."

How many people right here on this thread dismissed the OP's feeling that something is _wrong_? How many people right here on this thread dismissed her belief that her MIL is undermining her relationship with her daughter? If that's the reaction on a forum devoted to Attachment Parenting (which includes fostering a close relationship between parent and child), what do you suppose the pressure in "mainstream" society are like?

Toxic people are like emotionally abusive spouses. They're insidious, dangerous and can be very, very hard to spot.

I agree that the OP is merely a "snapshot", but if I ever catch _anybody_ telling any of my children, "don't tell your mom, because she'd [fill in blank]", they're history in my life and my child's life. Done.


----------



## runes (Aug 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
Well, based on what I've seen several times in my life - not just with my grandmother - it's very easy to stuff those instincts when _everyone_ around you, and your society as a whole, says "it's not as bad as you think - grandparents _always_ spoil grandkids - but you can't deprive them of each other, because it would be cruel - etc., etc., etc."

How many people right here on this thread dismissed the OP's feeling that something is _wrong_? How many people right here on this thread dismissed her belief that her MIL is undermining her relationship with her daughter? If that's the reaction on a forum devoted to Attachment Parenting (which includes fostering a close relationship between parent and child), what do you suppose the pressure in "mainstream" society are like?

Toxic people are like emotionally abusive spouses. They're insidious, dangerous and can be very, very hard to spot.

I agree that the OP is merely a "snapshot", but if I ever catch _anybody_ telling any of my children, "don't tell your mom, because she'd [fill in blank]", they're history in my life and my child's life. Done.









:

well said.


----------



## WNB (Apr 29, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
...
How many people right here on this thread dismissed the OP's feeling that something is _wrong_? How many people right here on this thread dismissed her belief that her MIL is undermining her relationship with her daughter? If that's the reaction on a forum devoted to Attachment Parenting (which includes fostering a close relationship between parent and child), what do you suppose the pressure in "mainstream" society are like?

Since you asked, of the 31 unique posters on this thread, only 3 suggested that the daughter's relationship with the mil might be positive at this point in time and not something to sever immediately. I don't read ANY of the posts as dismissive of OP's concern about MIL -- the posters that did not say to cut ties immediately seemed to agree that op should seek professional therapy to help the daughter with the eating disorder, and to follow the therapists' advice regarding MIL. That's not dismissive of her concern, in my reading - it simply prioritizes the eating disorder as principal issue that needs to be healed, and casts "MIL relationship" as a symptom of that other, immediately dangerous problem.


----------



## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WNB*
..."MIL relationship" as a symptom of that other, immediately dangerous problem.

I don't follow you... what is the other immediately dangerous problem?


----------



## Viewfinder (Sep 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shanagirl*
So my question is if this woman is so toxic, so awful, so invasive (did I miss the part where she comes over and forces the granddaughter to come over?) so mentally ill, what does it say about a mother who freely admits that she let her daughter spend extended periods with her over years? I got the very strong impression from the OP that she WAS a much used babysitter and caregiver.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the OP, just that you can't have it both ways-- if the MIL was truly the monster some of you are comfortable stating, then why didn't the parents' radar and instincts go off before they accepted what sound like extensive babysitting over the years?

So, assuming the OPs instincts in the past were good, I would guess the MIL is probably not a toxic mentally ill ogre but a flawed elderly person who is physically ill and fearful and, I agree, narcissistic, but narcissism...well, people who are without it are rare and amazing.

As for the MIL issue, it has been on Mothering's boards that I have been struck by how durable a thread starter it is over the years. Simply titled "MIL rant", the postings and responses go on for many screens. I do think it is a uniquely complex relationship for many and I'm fascinated by it. That's what drew me into this thread -- the 'mil' in the title.

But we're still always only hearing one side of the story and I read the posts to try to get a little more than just what's on the surface.

Yes, you can have it both ways with someone who has NPD, yes you can. You can have a total charmer, and a snake in the grass. They can and do jam the radar of almost everyone they meet and have connections with, but daughters and daughters in law are often targeted by the snake part of the NPD mother/mother in law.

I'm not diagnosing the OP's mil with NPD, but if she does have it, OP's life could change for knowing. Maybe this old lady is just a selfish interferer whom OP has patiently endured all these years, for family harmony. After all, it's hubby's mother; he should know, right? (They don't usually, they get the "charmer" part) Now that OP's daughter is manifesting some problems, patience has turned to alarm, brought about by cumulative "evidence." Her original post sounded very alarmed. (Apologies to OP for talkin' boutcha. Maybe this is a hijacking of your thread... .)

Narcissistic personality disorder: It's not the same as merely "narcissistic." The disorder is a mental illness--not that it can be cured. Maybe technically, it's "just' a disorder, but either way, it's dangerous, it's crafty, and it is very, very destructive to any who are touched by it. Whether it's your MIL, or mother, or grandmother, it's very easy to be conned by them and pressured by all those they fool to distrust your own intuitions. For decades, especially if it's your own mom or grandma: we WANT to have a mom, a grandma. We WANT to believe they are good, even if it means we have to tell ourselves that WE must be a little oversensitive in order to read her as "good." Oh, and one more thing about those with NPD: as they age, they get worse, way worse.

And I would like to emphasize that I suggested that MAYBE OP's mil "might" have this disorder. Her concerns sounded very familiar to me, and if my mentioning it leads someone, including her, to confirming if it is or isn't, it could make a huge difference in the quality of their future lives. I hope it isn't, and I can only be glad for those who have no experience of such a person in their lives.


----------



## sphinxie (Feb 28, 2006)

My 2c...

1. Tone down any stress and instability in your DD's life. Handle situations with a peaceful attitude and healthy self-control. Concentrate on the means rather than the end. Have high standards for yourself in this, regardless of the standards others have for themselves.

2. Get family counseling as soon as possible to help negotiate the transitions you're all going through, and to help everyone get guidance in how to handle them better. (Not suggesting including the MIL in this







)

3. Figure out how to limit your MIL's role in your DD's life, in whatever way is most appropriate for the given circumstances.

While control issues may be manifesting as an eating disorder for your DD, it sounds like they manifest in different ways throughout the family. If you can tone down your stress, it will help to tone down your DD's stress.

I would suggest not making any drastic changes until you, your DH, and your DD have laid a foundation for working together on this stuff. While your MIL may have contributed enormously to the problem over the long term, in the short term a few more visits probably won't make a big difference. But I mean this in the most general sense based on what you feel is necessary... whether it's cutting off all visits after a family talk, or seeing a counselor for a couple months before restricting visits to supervised only, or whatever.

While your MIL totally sounds toxic, don't overlook your own power and influence in this situation. It's a lot easier and more effective to change yourself than it is to change somebody else.

ETA: I thought I'd add a few techniques for dealing with not eating in response to stress. Liquids are usually easier to eat than solids. Keep various juices and soups around. Sometimes if one needs to eat but can't, if you start out with a liquid, a normal appetite returns. I find coconut juice is really nice because it's nourishing yet has a very mild taste. Mild tastes in particular can help to transition. Fruits are also good, especially bananas for some quick calories. Keep a variety of her favorite snacks available. If she's not eating, try making something mild and easy, then leaving it around or offering it in a mellow way.

Not all anorexias are the same, there are a lot of different nuances. Those are just some basic techniques that work for me and friends with similar issues...


----------



## mykdsmomy (Oct 10, 2004)

I cant believe this thread is still going~ I realize it's difficult to "diagnose" a situation online.

I do appreciate all the support and helpful advice.

The relationship that DH , me and MIl have is really sensitive. If it were up to DH, we would have NO contact with mil.....he is sick of her games, her inability to see other people's points of view and that she's so very conditional in her love.

She loves my dd but in her own sick twisted way. She's given her so much stuff over the years but doesnt let her bring any of it home. it all has to stay over there.....(it's her way of getting dd to come back). I could literally go on for hours here. The point is, we shouldnt have let dd have such a close relationship right from the beginning. Instead of working on attatchment with my dd, I kind of "let" mil co-parent my dd......I've always fought it......but guess I felt such pressure from everyone, that I caved and didnt cut it off in the beginning.

The stupid thing is, we would have all sorts of arguments, discussions, long drawn out sit down and talk sessions with mil (and dh) about how we dont approve of her method of discipline with dd. She was so pushy about dd potty training and i HATED that.....she would constantly tell me to put a sweater on dd or "where are her shoes?". IN FRONT OF ME AND DH, she will scold our dc.
Now that I'm older, I dont prompt my other dc to listen to their grammy when she's scolding them....i instantly intervene.....and mil gets really mad and that is in part why she doesnt "like" my ds6. EX: My mil will try and correct ds in front of me...for stupid things....like if he says "no", she'll say....."um excuse me....you dont tell grammy no.....you say no thank you" He'll just look at me and I'll tell him it's ok......then mil gets mad and walks away from me and wont give ds the time of day......

Ok, I realize once again, that anyone reading this can shoot me down for first of all, letting dd have a relationship when I knew from the beginning that mil was unstable or toxic or whatever......but both dh and I grew up with very screwed up parents who abused us.......it was the opposite (or so it seemed) for our dd, my mil was overly protective and giving to dd .....but we didnt notice the conditions on this love at first......

Anyway....i hope that made sense....it's hard to simplify 11 years of crap into a few paragraphs.......


----------



## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *WNB*
Since you asked, of the 31 unique posters on this thread, only 3 suggested that the daughter's relationship with the mil might be positive at this point in time and not something to sever immediately. I don't read ANY of the posts as dismissive of OP's concern about MIL -- the posters that did not say to cut ties immediately seemed to agree that op should seek professional therapy to help the daughter with the eating disorder, and to follow the therapists' advice regarding MIL. That's not dismissive of her concern, in my reading - it simply prioritizes the eating disorder as principal issue that needs to be healed, and casts "MIL relationship" as a symptom of that other, immediately dangerous problem.

You have a point about the way people phrased things. Some of those posts seemed fairly dismissive to me. (I think 10% on a forum of this type is quite significant, actually.)

I realize I'm projecting, and maybe I didn't make my view clear. I highly doubt the MIL issue is a symptom of the eating disorder. I'm inclined to suspect that it's a _cause_ of said issues. And, I wouldn't even trust a therapist to necessarily catch it. To the day she died, almost everybody who met my grandmother described her as a "sweet little old lady". A total stranger once apologized to my mother for "believing the things your mother said about you". And, the MIL in this situation sounds _exactly_ the same.


----------



## daniedb (Aug 8, 2004)

mykdsmommy - I've been following the saga, and I just want to say a few bravos...I think it's awesome that you have a therapist lined up for your DD, that you are setting some strong boundaries with MIL (who, I agree, sounds highly toxic and self-centered), and most of all, just for doing what you believe is the right thing to do for your family. I am total agreement with a pp who brought up the struggle we have in our society with accepting people just because they are "family". In my family of origin, there are many toxic people, and my mother has been the banner-holder in this group that we choose our family, instead of accepting those people into which we were born simply because we are blood-related. It is certainly possible to build a family that has no blood ties that can be more supportive than a family of origin, and accepting MIL's behavior simply because she is blood-related would be foolish and naive.

I just wanted to give you kudos for standing up for your family and doing what you believe to be the right thing for your DD.


----------



## LionTigerBear (Jan 13, 2006)

Me too-- I also applaud how you are handling this. Sure, you may have made mistakes in the past, but we all do. You are doing great.

I also wanted to recommend flower essences-- they work so well for emotional imbalances. They would be helpful for you, your daughter, and anyone else who is feeling stressed in your family right now. They are kind of expensive but SO worth it.


----------

