# spanking and shaming at the post office today....



## snoopy5386 (May 6, 2005)

DD and I had to go to the post office today and walked right in behind a mom and her approx. 4 year old son, so we were right behind them in line the whole time. We were there maybe 7 or 8 minutes? and I could not believe what I witnessed in that time. The boy was roaming around the post office, something I have seen children do every single time we are there since there is a wide open area near where the line is. He was also playing on and off with the retractable line pole thingys that form up the roped off line, also not a big deal in my opinion. First she started off by threatening the boy with "If you don't come here I am going to go get that man (the post office employee working the counter) to come get you. Then several times she threatened to call his mom-mom (grandma I guess) to come and paddle him. She also said things like "I am going to have a Thomas birthday party and you are not", "I am going to wear your Thomas shirt when we get home" to which the boy replied, no, no, no! and got very upset. He wandered off again and she said "I hope somebody takes you." She then kept telling him that he was bad and she was good over and over and over, which got the boy very upset. When he still wouldn't listen and kept fooling around she grabbed his hand and wouldn't let him go and of course, at this point, he started to cry and throw a tantrum. After about a minute of him tantruming, she smacked him on his bottom so loud it made my heart race and said "now you have something to cry about". He cried throughout the rest of their transaction and then they left. I can only imagine what happened once they got home.


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## BabyHaysMama (Aug 7, 2007)

That poor little guy! It's so sad when parents are so out of touch with the needs of their children. My stomach gets tied up in knots when I witness situations like this one, although I haven't witnessed one in some time.

How did your DD react to it?


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## GooeyRN (Apr 24, 2006)

yikes, a little harsh for playing with rope things.







She sounds really mean.







Poor kid. How did your child act after seeing that?


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

What did you say?

Pat


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## mowilli3 (Jan 7, 2007)

I really try not to be judgemental of people that I don't know but, she sounds stupid. I don't understand threatening to wear his shirt. That doesn't make sense to me.


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## CheapPearls (Aug 7, 2007)

Poor little guy.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *mowilli3* 
I really try not to be judgemental of people that I don't know but, she sounds stupid. I don't understand threatening to wear his shirt. That doesn't make sense to me.

Yeah that was odd but it got a response from the boy so she knew it would bother him.


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## art_teachermommy (Dec 17, 2007)

I'm going to wear your Thomas shirt when we get home???

Who says this???

strange.

sad.


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## dawn1221 (Sep 27, 2006)

I bet she does not know any better. She needs a quick education on parenting.

Poor baby having to suffer because the parent is an idiot.


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## sunnymw (Feb 28, 2007)

Wow... I don't know if I would have said anything, but I probably would have had to go to a different PO









ETA: or engaged the child in conversation to help distract him enough to keep him from getting in "trouble"...


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## freestyler (Jan 28, 2005)

People like that make me so ill and so sad. What a horrible woman. There is just NO excuse for such rotten parenting. NONE.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Poor mama. She was probably really embarrassed that her child was misbehaving, and she clearly had no idea what to do. My kids always do that at the PO, and I'm always pretty embarrassed, too, though I just try not to be.


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## allgirls (Apr 16, 2004)

natensarah said:


> Poor mama. She was probably really embarrassed that her child was misbehaving, and she clearly had no idea what to do. My kids always do that at the PO, and I'm always pretty embarrassed, too, though I just try not to be.[/QUOTE
> 
> I found parenting got a whole lot easier when I stopped being concerned about the opinions of random strangers. My worse parenting moments came when I was concerned about that..once I let that go it was so much better.
> 
> ...


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## Jackielyn (Jun 27, 2007)

is she the mother or a sister? she sounds very immature...


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls* 
I found parenting got a whole lot easier when I stopped being concerned about the opinions of random strangers. My worse parenting moments came when I was concerned about that..once I let that go it was so much better.

For sure. ITA.

However, I also find it pretty easy to "let go" because my persona is pretty much accepted and approved of wherever I go (well-groomed, healthy, reasonably attractive white woman who is pretty clearly middle class). So I don't know how it would feel if you weren't approved of, if strangers regularly treated you as a second-class citizen. I see that happen around here quite a bit, especially to women who are clearly very poor or Hispanic. You might become so desperate to prove to the world that you were *trying* to be a good parent and control your children that you would resort to such tactics. *Especially* if you had never had anything better modeled for you.

I'll get off my soapbox now. I just think it's best when you see parents like this to remember that once, they were probably that child. Or maybe their moms were even worse. We can't know how far they've come, or what they struggle with. But it's never helpful to condemn them as horrible.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls* 
This is where I would have struck up a conversation about how "all kids do that, and isn't he cute, how old is he" and maybe smiled a bit at him, engaged him a bit depending on the situation.

That's awesome!


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

I was wondering what I would do in such a situation...will my saying something change this mother's heart, will she feel anger and resentment and take it out on the child later, will she just ignore me?

Sometimes, I feel EVERY parent, no matter what their background, should be made to attend a mandatory parenting class once a week. A neutral space which does not point fingers but sends out a strong message about breaking the cycle of abuse and empowering families with techniques and steps to become better parents. Some people achieve or want to achieve change on their own, but far too many need help and guidance in reaching there.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jackielyn* 
is she the mother or a sister? she sounds very immature...

I wondered this too. The part about wearing his Thomas shirt sounded _so_ much like something my older sisters would do. Also what mother would threaten to call a grandpartent to punish? I could easily see an older sister threatening to call the mother though.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:

Poor mama. She was probably really embarrassed that her child was misbehaving, and she clearly had no idea what to do. My kids always do that at the PO, and I'm always pretty embarrassed, too, though I just try not to be.
Why do we make excuses for abusive behavior when it involves children but make sure everyone knows that there are no excuses for hitting or emotionally abusing your sps.? I see where you are coming from in trying not to be judgmental of another mom but being embarrassed (if that's what she was) is no excuse for acting so abusive to her child. What she did was wrong-egging him on, making sure he knew that he was a "bad" person, telling him that he wasn't wanted, hitting him- just WRONG. I don't believe that I, or anyone else is a better person than her, just don't like seeing excuses made for abusive behavior. Her poor little guy.


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## angelcat (Feb 23, 2006)

I think it was an older sister or cousin or something, not the mom. Especially with the comments about the party, and her being good and him not.

Not that that is ok, I just don't think it was the mom!


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## snoopy5386 (May 6, 2005)

It was definitely the mom, I thought at first it was a sister/cousin too, but the boy called her mom several times. I didn't say/do anything, maybe I should have, but the shaming started within less than a minute of walking in the door. My DD thankfully is too young to understand what was being said, but she did get upset/confused when the boy was crying and luckily she didn't see him get hit. I know she was embarrassed by his behavior, my DD who is not yet two was acting like a perfect angel, literally glued to my side (sooo not her normal behavior, but she was sleepy) so I know that didn't help her feel better.


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## snoopy5386 (May 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
For sure. ITA.

However, I also find it pretty easy to "let go" because my persona is pretty much accepted and approved of wherever I go (well-groomed, healthy, reasonably attractive white woman who is pretty clearly middle class). So I don't know how it would feel if you weren't approved of, if strangers regularly treated you as a second-class citizen. I see that happen around here quite a bit, especially to women who are clearly very poor or Hispanic. You might become so desperate to prove to the world that you were *trying* to be a good parent and control your children that you would resort to such tactics. *Especially* if you had never had anything better modeled for you.

I'll get off my soapbox now. I just think it's best when you see parents like this to remember that once, they were probably that child. Or maybe their moms were even worse. We can't know how far they've come, or what they struggle with. But it's never helpful to condemn them as horrible.

That's awesome!

I agree with your statement, but this was a middle class white woman, and I am a child from an abusive household. I was hit, shamed, etc, etc, and I would NEVER do those things to my child even though I have the thoughts/urges when I get really angry with her. Abuse definitely is second nature when you have grown up that way, but it is possible to break the cycle.


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## 2crazykids (Jun 19, 2005)

Whenever I'm in situations like this, and it happens a lot, I try to engage with the kids and start a fun game. Or I try to make lots of noise and get the kid to focus on the ruckus I'm making. I try not to be too loud or obnoxious, but that last thing I want to see (or my kids to see) is another kid get smacked upside the head in public.

I have a 5 and 4 y/o and trust me...taking them to a place where we have to stand in line for a long time is torturous at best. But whatever we do we try to have fun or have a conversation about something...they are very inquisitive.

If other kids are around we try to talk to the parent or parents and be social. It's good modeling for the future. Anything to distract the kid and parent from a volatile situation.

It's hard but worth it. If all else fails give the other parent dirty looks and loudly explain to your child(ren) that hitting is never the answer, so on and so forth...







Had to do that a few times too! Or don't be passive-aggressive like me and come right out and tell that parent what they are doing is wrong an abusive.


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

ugh. It just totally disgusts me when parents act like that. If they are so immature in public, it makes me wonder what they are like at home behind closed doors. Another thing that really gets me is when people talk badly about their kids. Like one time I was shopping with my sister, and we ran into a co worker of hers, who had her 3 adorable children with her (all under the age of 5). My sister and I were both pregnant at the time and we both knew that we were having boys and we got to talking about it and she pointed to her son and said "you know if I had known this one was going to be a boy I NEVER would have had him!" we were shocked that she would say this, and especially in front of him, and then she started going on about how awful they were and how spoiled and bratty they were and my sister and I just said that we had to go and walked away quickly.


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## LolaK (Jan 8, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
Poor mama. She was probably really embarrassed that her child was misbehaving, and she clearly had no idea what to do. My kids always do that at the PO, and I'm always pretty embarrassed, too, though I just try not to be.

Good lord, what the kid was doing was hardly misbehaving! Playing with the retractable line thingy? I mean don't they put those there to entertain toddlers while they wait in line with their moms?


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## TrippyLongstocking (Feb 27, 2007)

when i witness things like that i just pray that the mom was just having a really really bad day and will never do it again... i mean what else can you do without intervening...pretty sad








she was the one who got him worked up in the first place... thats why i just let my kids run rampant









trying not to judge..trying not to judge...


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mumster* 
Why do we make excuses for abusive behavior when it involves children but make sure everyone knows that there are no excuses for hitting or emotionally abusing your sps.? I see where you are coming from in trying not to be judgmental of another mom but being embarrassed (if that's what she was) is no excuse for acting so abusive to her child. What she did was wrong-egging him on, making sure he knew that he was a "bad" person, telling him that he wasn't wanted, hitting him- just WRONG. I don't believe that I, or anyone else is a better person than her, just don't like seeing excuses made for abusive behavior. Her poor little guy.

Trying to understand another person's POV is not necessarily excusing behavior. That's a cornerstone of GD, right?

And she's in the wrong for calling him "bad", but at the same time people on here have called her "horrible". I just don't think we can ever truly understand where another person is coming from. We don't know what's going on in their lives, and while we can condemn the action, I think it is wrong to condemn a person. It's not my place.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
Trying to understand another person's POV is not necessarily excusing behavior. That's a cornerstone of GD, right?

And she's in the wrong for calling him "bad", but at the same time people on here have called her "horrible". I just don't think we can ever truly understand where another person is coming from. We don't know what's going on in their lives, and while we can condemn the action, I think it is wrong to condemn a person. It's not my place.









:

thank you for posting this. We've all had less than stellar days as parents. OK, not that bad, but are any of us perfect parents?

Yes, what that mother was doing was poor parenting. Yes, she was shaming and hitting. No child should have to endure that.

But at the same time, who has taught her parenting skills? Where can she go to learn something different? Instead of merely condemning, what can we do as a community to make this kind of parenting a thing of the past?


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## _betsy_ (Jun 29, 2004)

I've been in similar situations at the PO. I do try to strike up a conversation with the mom, after making eye contact witht he child and smiling. Part of it is just because I am my mother's child and she makes ita habit of being everyone's new best friend every where she goes. It's pretty easy for me to talk to strangers.

I know I've said in the past, at the PO or waiting in line somewhere, something along the lines of "He's adorable, how old is he?" Get the answer. "Seems like it's a tough age for every kid!" Get answer. Engage child: "I like your shirt! Is that a dinosaur?" Big grin.

It calms everyone down. I've even had people further back in line, and once the PO lady, thank me for diffusing the situation.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 

However, I also find it pretty easy to "let go" because my persona is pretty much accepted and approved of wherever I go (well-groomed, healthy, reasonably attractive white woman who is pretty clearly middle class). So I don't know how it would feel if you weren't approved of, if strangers regularly treated you as a second-class citizen. I see that happen around here quite a bit, especially to women who are clearly very poor or Hispanic. You might become so desperate to prove to the world that you were *trying* to be a good parent and control your children that you would resort to such tactics. *Especially* if you had never had anything better modeled for you.

This is very insightful.

The problem of poor parenting is systemic in our culture -- it is bigger than one person, and blaming individuals is unhelpful.

I work with troubled kids, and their families, and one thing I am reminded of constantly is that the parents are pretty much the same as the children, just grown up. Many of them have been abusive, but not generally out of "mean spiritedness." They are as disadvantaged as their children are -- sometimes learning disabled or emotionally disturbed, and often lacking in physical resources. It is so easy to have compassion toward "troubled children," but those troubled children grow up to become "troubled parents," and suddenly the compassion evaporates. Compassion is still warrented, I think.


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## WonderWild (May 13, 2004)

I just can't imagine that was the mom. If so, that's some pretty off the wall things to say. Poor child.


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## yoginisarah (Dec 20, 2007)

That poor little guy. I've seen some less than stellar parenting examples when I'm with my 17 month old and he just stares and looks kind of scared. I've had to just leave where I was a couple of times so that he wouldn't have to witness it and worry if it was going to happen to him.
It's hard not to judge the mom in this case. I really hope that isn't how she usually treats him.


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

I am always saddened when I see mean and/or stupid people "parenting" little souls and stomping all over them. I'm so thankful I had good parents.

I wouldn't know what to do in that situation either... I'd want to leave because I would be sickened by what that woman was saying to her child.... but I wouldn't want to give the woman any more reason to berate, threaten or hit her child.

By your description I would have sworn that the woman was a much older sister or cousin because of the immature threats to wear his clothes, throw a party, saying she was good and he was bad, etc. Saying that she hopes someone TAKES him is just _mind-boggling_.

Don't beat yourself up for it too much, OP, it's hard to know what to do in these cases. What you saw was NOT YOUR FAULT, and it was NOT your responsibility to prevent it. Sometimes when we see something that is unjust, or upsetting it's hard to believe that we could not have prevented it from happening.

Engaging the little boy yourself _might_ be the safest bet... just to keep him "out of trouble" for the few minutes that you are in the same room and to show him some adult kindness..... even though she would probably get right back to shaming, threatening and hitting him as soon as they left. I hope his teachers are nice to him when he starts school.

........................

And for the record: I think it is repulsive, demeaning, and terribly condescending to lower one's expectations of decency and standards of parenting based on the observed person's class, race or ethnic background.

Someone who is desperately poor, black/brown, and comes from an abused childhood can be a compassionate, intelligent, understanding, intuitive and kind parent, just as someone who is wealthy, white and pampered can be wickedly cruel and abusive.

Malice and failure come in all shapes and colours, and lowering the bar of expectation based on someone's background or appearance is one of the greatest disservices to human achievement I have ever considered.

So, while I always do my best to "understand" that the other person could be having a very hard time of it and may lapse or snap at his or her children, I will certainly "judge" when I consider extreme situations like this, (like saying she hopes someone TAKES HIM) and I will hold equally high expectations for EVERY person, because that is the only way to be truly equitable and fair.

Trin.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mumster* 
Why do we make excuses for abusive behavior when it involves children but make sure everyone knows that there are no excuses for hitting or emotionally abusing your sps.? I see where you are coming from in trying not to be judgmental of another mom but being embarrassed (if that's what she was) is no excuse for acting so abusive to her child. What she did was wrong-egging him on, making sure he knew that he was a "bad" person, telling him that he wasn't wanted, hitting him- just WRONG. I don't believe that I, or anyone else is a better person than her, just don't like seeing excuses made for abusive behavior. Her poor little guy.

If you were talking about your mother and the way she raised you would you say she was an abusive and horrible person or would you say she was doing the best she could with the skills, support, and background that she herself had. My mother was like this but I know that my mother did the best she could and there was much more to her than her frustration and embarrasment at our normal behavior when we were out in public. It is really easy to sit on your computer and pass judgements on what another person did and even on what you yourself have done after it happens and it is easy to dismiss someone as abusive and having nothing else to them when you don't know them or their situation, but it is also very shallow. Everyone has more to them then just a bad day and a bad reaction to something their child does that really ticks them off.


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
Trying to understand another person's POV is not necessarily excusing behavior. That's a cornerstone of GD, right?

And she's in the wrong for calling him "bad", but at the same time people on here have called her "horrible". I just don't think we can ever truly understand where another person is coming from. We don't know what's going on in their lives, and while we can condemn the action, I think it is wrong to condemn a person. It's not my place.

The way he was acting would fall under "age appropriate behaviour", so she is calling him bad for behaving like a child. He doesn't know better. She is the PARENT. She SHOULD know better. It is not the same thing AT ALL! How is it not okay to be outraged at a grown up abusing a child? By stating that we don't know where the mother is coming from we are excusing the fact that she hit her child. Hitting a child is not okay. Ever!


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
This is very insightful.

The problem of poor parenting is systemic in our culture -- it is bigger than one person, and blaming individuals is unhelpful.

I work with troubled kids, and their families, and one thing I am reminded of constantly is that the parents are pretty much the same as the children, just grown up. Many of them have been abusive, but not generally out of "mean spiritedness." They are as disadvantaged as their children are -- sometimes learning disabled or emotionally disturbed, and often lacking in physical resources. It is so easy to have compassion toward "troubled children," but those troubled children grow up to become "troubled parents," and suddenly the compassion evaporates. Compassion is still warrented, I think.

We shouldn't blame individuals, but we should condemn abuse. Not everyone knows how to be an effective parent, and for that we should have compassion and understanding, but when it crosses the line into physically harming the child it becomes something we can't just excuse. Having excuses allows the behaviour to continue, people aren't forced to take a good look at what they are doing and how they may do things differently. To just say this mom's behaviour as okay because she had a bad day, or she was embarassed, or she didn't know better says what to the child? His right to security is less important than mommy's bad day? He doesn't matter enough for anyone to say that being hit isn't okay? I don't get it.


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## FreeRangeMama (Nov 22, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
If you were talking about your mother and the way she raised you would you say she was an abusive and horrible person or would you say she was doing the best she could with the skills, support, and background that she herself had. My mother was like this but I know that my mother did the best she could and there was much more to her than her frustration and embarrasment at our normal behavior when we were out in public. It is really easy to sit on your computer and pass judgements on what another person did and even on what you yourself have done after it happens and it is easy to dismiss someone as abusive and having nothing else to them when you don't know them or their situation, but it is also very shallow. Everyone has more to them then just a bad day and a bad reaction to something their child does that really ticks them off.

So because my mother or your mother could have lacked the skills, support, and background it is okay to excuse children being hit and shamed? It is not shallow to say that hitting and shaming a child is not okay. It isn't like this is one little slip up. What the mother said to the little boy is cruel. Does this sound like just a bad day? Or just an isolated case of frustration? She clearly needs help in learning a kinder way to parent.

Quote:

Then several times she threatened to call his mom-mom (grandma I guess) to come and paddle him. She also said things like "I am going to have a Thomas birthday party and you are not", "I am going to wear your Thomas shirt when we get home" to which the boy replied, no, no, no! and got very upset. He wandered off again and she said "I hope somebody takes you." She then kept telling him that he was bad and she was good over and over and over, which got the boy very upset. When he still wouldn't listen and kept fooling around she grabbed his hand and wouldn't let him go and of course, at this point, he started to cry and throw a tantrum. After about a minute of him tantruming, she smacked him on his bottom so loud it made my heart race and said "now you have something to cry about". He cried throughout the rest of their transaction and then they left. I can only imagine what happened once they got home.
I am sure this mom loves her kid (most moms do), but that doesn't make up for the fact that she is treating her child in a way that is harming him as a person. Maybe she doesn't know better, but just tolerating this kind of behaviour certainly isn't very good incentive to LEARN a better way so that her boy doesn't grow up to parent his children in a similarly abusive way.


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## snoopy5386 (May 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *One_Girl* 
If you were talking about your mother and the way she raised you would you say she was an abusive and horrible person or would you say she was doing the best she could with the skills, support, and background that she herself had. *My mother was like this but I know that my mother did the best she could* and there was much more to her than her frustration and embarrasment at our normal behavior when we were out in public. It is really easy to sit on your computer and pass judgements on what another person did and even on what you yourself have done after it happens and it is easy to dismiss someone as abusive and having nothing else to them when you don't know them or their situation, but it is also very shallow. Everyone has more to them then just a bad day and a bad reaction to something their child does that really ticks them off.

My parents were also abusive and although I like to tell myself that they did the best that they could, that is simply not true, they never, ever, ever tried to improve their parenting, which is something I think we all here are always trying to do. That is the difference.


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mumster* 
Why do we make excuses for abusive behavior when it involves children but make sure everyone knows that there are no excuses for hitting or emotionally abusing your sps.? I see where you are coming from in trying not to be judgmental of another mom but being embarrassed (if that's what she was) is no excuse for acting so abusive to her child. What she did was wrong-egging him on, making sure he knew that he was a "bad" person, telling him that he wasn't wanted, hitting him- just WRONG. I don't believe that I, or anyone else is a better person than her, just don't like seeing excuses made for abusive behavior. Her poor little guy.

ITA! And that is very bizzare behavior, really. I mean I have seen many moms yell at & hit their kids, but "I'm going to wear your shirt when we get home?" HU?!?


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Trinitty* 
I am always saddened when I see mean and/or stupid people "parenting" little souls and stomping all over them. I'm so thankful I had good parents.

I wouldn't know what to do in that situation either... I'd want to leave because I would be sickened by what that woman was saying to her child.... but I wouldn't want to give the woman any more reason to berate, threaten or hit her child.

By your description I would have sworn that the woman was a much older sister or cousin because of the immature threats to wear his clothes, throw a party, saying she was good and he was bad, etc. Saying that she hopes someone TAKES him is just _mind-boggling_.

Don't beat yourself up for it too much, OP, it's hard to know what to do in these cases. What you saw was NOT YOUR FAULT, and it was NOT your responsibility to prevent it. Sometimes when we see something that is unjust, or upsetting it's hard to believe that we could not have prevented it from happening.

Engaging the little boy yourself _might_ be the safest bet... just to keep him "out of trouble" for the few minutes that you are in the same room and to show him some adult kindness..... even though she would probably get right back to shaming, threatening and hitting him as soon as they left. I hope his teachers are nice to him when he starts school.

........................

And for the record: I think it is repulsive, demeaning, and terribly condescending to lower one's expectations of decency and standards of parenting based on the observed person's class, race or ethnic background.

Someone who is desperately poor, black/brown, and comes from an abused childhood can be a compassionate, intelligent, understanding, intuitive and kind parent, just as someone who is wealthy, white and pampered can be wickedly cruel and abusive.

Malice and failure come in all shapes and colours, and lowering the bar of expectation based on someone's background or appearance is one of the greatest disservices to human achievement I have ever considered.

So, while I always do my best to "understand" that the other person could be having a very hard time of it and may lapse or snap at his or her children, I will certainly "judge" when I consider extreme situations like this, (like saying she hopes someone TAKES HIM) and I will hold equally high expectations for EVERY person, because that is the only way to be truly equitable and fair.

Trin.

I don't see where anyone was lowering their expectations of someone's parenting based on their perceived race or class. I said that I've noticed people being treated poorly because of their perceived race and/or class, and that it may color your perception of how people were viewing you if that was happening continuously.

I have had some horrible public parenting moments, and while I hopefully won't have anymore, it's possible I will. I can only hope no one will think I'm "mean and/or stupid". Ouch!


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## cyncyn (Nov 19, 2004)

I have witnessed similar scenes and I just feel so sick. I have never said anything to the parents, but I have been tempted to intervene more than once.














for the little boy and














for the mama.

Last time dd was in the PO with me, I had to carry her out screaming because I recycled a junk mail offer with a snarling wolf and half naked woman on it that she wanted to keep (sorry, not for kids). Probably someone thought I was a horrible parent too. Sure sometimes I say the wrong thing or don't parent the way I really want to, but I feel like I am always learning and trying to improve (and I feel guilty as h*** when I mess up). That is a big difference, like pp said. Some people think that their parenting is just fine even if it borders on abusive.

FWIW, our postal clerks will say something when kids hang on the rope/pole dividers. Liability I suppose.


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## purple_kangaroo (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cyncyn* 
FWIW, our postal clerks will say something when kids hang on the rope/pole dividers. Liability I suppose.


Our postal clerks tell kids not to play with the rope/pole dividers all the time. Like they almost act like they don't even want the kids touching them. It makes it really stressful to stand in line with several small children.

ITA with what a few people said earlier . . . I think you can have compassion for someone and try to understand where they are coming from without excusing their behavior. That mom really needs some help and education in child development and parenting skills, it sounds like.


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## Dandelionkid (Mar 6, 2007)

Quote:

If you were talking about your mother and the way she raised you would you say she was an abusive and horrible person or would you say she was doing the best she could with the skills, support, and background that she herself had. My mother was like this but I know that my mother did the best she could and there was much more to her than her frustration and embarrasment at our normal behavior when we were out in public. It is really easy to sit on your computer and pass judgements on what another person did and even on what you yourself have done after it happens and it is easy to dismiss someone as abusive and having nothing else to them when you don't know them or their situation, but it is also very shallow. Everyone has more to them then just a bad day and a bad reaction to something their child does that really ticks them off.
This woman was abusive in this situation and it's not shallow to judge her behavior as such. I am not judging her as a person- I didn't say she was "horrible", although she acted horribly. I feel compassion for her too because she must feel crappy herself to act that way. I can't help feeling more compassion for that little boy, though, who had no choice in the matter. Judging a person's behavior is different from judging them as a person. What if the situation was a little different- a man belittling and hitting his wife in public- would you say he was "doing the best he could"? Or would you label the behavior as abuse so that others and hopefully he himself would know that this behavior was wrong and needed to be changed?

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We shouldn't blame individuals, but we should condemn abuse. Not everyone knows how to be an effective parent, and for that we should have compassion and understanding, but when it crosses the line into physically harming the child it becomes something we can't just excuse. Having excuses allows the behaviour to continue, people aren't forced to take a good look at what they are doing and how they may do things differently. To just say this mom's behaviour as okay because she had a bad day, or she was embarassed, or she didn't know better says what to the child? His right to security is less important than mommy's bad day? He doesn't matter enough for anyone to say that being hit isn't okay? I don't get it.








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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *allgirls* 

I found parenting got a whole lot easier when I stopped being concerned about the opinions of random strangers. My worse parenting moments came when I was concerned about that..once I let that go it was so much better.

I think she sounds somewhat mean-spirited and immature. I feel really sad for that poor child









This is where I would have struck up a conversation about how "all kids do that, and isn't he cute, how old is he" and maybe smiled a bit at him, engaged him a bit depending on the situation.

Yes, not caring what others think is very useful. It's tough when you do run into someone who gives you disapproval though. It's been rare for me but I get angry at the grump, not my kids.

I think starting a conversation and being pleasant with the mom is the way to go. If nothing else it models some kindness for her and distracts her a little from / diffuses the situation.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah* 
I have had some horrible public parenting moments, and while I hopefully won't have anymore, it's possible I will. I can only hope no one will think I'm "mean and/or stupid". Ouch!

You know, all the judgement I will ever receive in public is that I'm a weak parent or I can't control my kids. No one will ever think I'm abusive, well unless they heard my DS screaming when he didn't want to go in his car seat, but that's a rare exception.

I know I'm loving and gentle. I know I'm a good parent and that gives me tremendous confidence. I hear so many moms worried about the looks that others are giving them and it's a shame.... moms feel and perceive so much societal pressure (some real, some imagined) and I wish we could all get past that.


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## KBecks (Jan 3, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *2crazykids* 
If all else fails give the other parent dirty looks and loudly explain to your child(ren) that hitting is never the answer, so on and so forth...







Had to do that a few times too! Or don't be passive-aggressive like me and come right out and tell that parent what they are doing is wrong an abusive.

I disagree. I think it's another form of shaming to publicly criticize the parent like that. The best approach I think is to be compassionate to the parent and show some understanding that she's feeling stressed, and just be nice to the person. It's hard to take the high road and talk to someone you feel is acting badly, but if you lower yourself to shaming the person, you're validating and perpetuating the cycle yourself. You have to lead by example and that's kindness.

Lastly, if mom gets a dirty look, the child will be blamed for it. "That lady was giving me a dirty look because YOU'RE so BAD." It can make things worse for the kid.
Plus, I want my own kids to see me being kind. Dirty looks aren't an acceptable form of communication that I want to teach my kids.

If you're not up to being kind, then it's better to do nothing at all.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FreeRangeMama* 
So because my mother or your mother could have lacked the skills, support, and background it is okay to excuse children being hit and shamed? It is not shallow to say that hitting and shaming a child is not okay. It isn't like this is one little slip up. What the mother said to the little boy is cruel. Does this sound like just a bad day? Or just an isolated case of frustration? She clearly needs help in learning a kinder way to parent.

I am sure this mom loves her kid (most moms do), but that doesn't make up for the fact that she is treating her child in a way that is harming him as a person. Maybe she doesn't know better, but just tolerating this kind of behaviour certainly isn't very good incentive to LEARN a better way so that her boy doesn't grow up to parent his children in a similarly abusive way.


I don't see anyone here advocating tolerating this behavior.

I do think however, it's possible to have compassion for the mother while condemning/acknowledging that her parenting practices are demeaning and damaging to her child.

What if each person reading this thread made a vow that the next time they encountered such a situation, they would try to engage the mom or the child in conversation to diffuse the situation? And then model some appropriate ways to redirect the child or the mom?

It's just so easy to sit at my computer and condemn the mom as bad and abusive, when in real life, I'd be too chicken to even make eye contact! If we know better, we have an obligation to do what we can to help.


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## seawind (Sep 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KBecks* 
I disagree. I think it's another form of shaming to publicly criticize the parent like that. The best approach I think is to be compassionate to the parent and show some understanding that she's feeling stressed, and just be nice to the person. It's hard to take the high road and talk to someone you feel is acting badly, but if you lower yourself to shaming the person, you're validating and perpetuating the cycle yourself. You have to lead by example and that's kindness.

Lastly, if mom gets a dirty look, the child will be blamed for it. "That lady was giving me a dirty look because YOU'RE so BAD." It can make things worse for the kid.
Plus, I want my own kids to see me being kind. Dirty looks aren't an acceptable form of communication that I want to teach my kids.

If you're not up to being kind, then it's better to do nothing at all.

You said it!


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LynnS6* 
I don't see anyone here advocating tolerating this behavior.

I do think however, it's possible to have compassion for the mother while condemning/acknowledging that her parenting practices are demeaning and damaging to her child.

What if each person reading this thread made a vow that the next time they encountered such a situation, they would try to engage the mom or the child in conversation to diffuse the situation? And then model some appropriate ways to redirect the child or the mom?

It's just so easy to sit at my computer and condemn the mom as bad and abusive, when in real life, I'd be too chicken to even make eye contact! If we know better, we have an obligation to do what we can to help.


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## Trinitty (Jul 15, 2004)

Sarah:

I usually don't pull-quote because I find it breaks-up the flow of a thread and, to me, it's a little rude, but I want to be clear with you.

Quote:

However, I also find it pretty easy to "let go" because my persona is pretty much accepted and approved of wherever I go (well-groomed, healthy, reasonably attractive white woman who is pretty clearly middle class). So I don't know how it would feel if you weren't approved of, if strangers regularly treated you as a second-class citizen. I see that happen around here quite a bit, especially to women who are clearly very poor or Hispanic. *You might become so desperate to prove to the world that you were trying to be a good parent and control your children that you would resort to such tactics. Especially if you had never had anything better modeled for you.*

----------------------

I don't see where anyone was lowering their expectations of someone's parenting based on their perceived race or class. I said that I've noticed people being treated poorly because of their perceived race and/or class, and that it may color your perception of how people were viewing you if that was happening continuously.

I have had some horrible public parenting moments, and while I hopefully won't have anymore, it's possible I will. I can only hope no one will think I'm "mean and/or stupid". Ouch!
Bolding mine.

So, you _weren't_ saying that you mentally make exceptions for poor parenting when the person you are observing is non-white or appears to be from a lower class? .... Because it sure sounded like you were, even if you thought you were doing it for nice reasons.

You were instead saying that because OTHER (white?) people judge people of colour, or people of a lower class more harshly... this causes those minorities or lower class people to react more quickly or harshly while parenting?

If that's the case... well, then, okay. That is different. But, I just can't understand how you would _know_ what was going on in that individual's mind and what could be motivating their actions.

I'm not trying to pick on you, I just want clarity.

It touches a raw nerve with me because both of my parents had pretty rotten childhoods.... and my sisters and I grew up with no-name soups and donation bins for many years as children. My parents were excellent. They LEARNED from their own experiences as children and decided to not repeat those mistakes. Were they perfect?? No. But, I would be really ticked if I knew people around us were "lowering the bar" for our behaviour and success just because we were on the lower end of the working class scale.... and were expecting better of the wealthier people around us while doing it. My Dh's situation is pretty similar and his parents improved on their childhoods by at least 80% as far as I can know.

...............

And, yes: If you actually said *those things* to your child while I was listening and watching - _"I HOPE SOMEONE TAKES YOU"_

I would think you to be VERY MEAN indeed. I would be horrified. I would be hard-pressed not to verbally bite your head off, _let alone_ feel compassion for YOU, while some helpless little person you were stomping all over was being told _by their mother_ that their mother would be happy if a stranger abducted and killed them. That's not a "bad parenting moment" that we could all expect to have- that's _repugnant_.

If you think that makes me intolerant or judgemental, then, you are right. I would judge you very harshly, and I would not tolerate you saying that to your child.

I usually cut people a lot of slack while I'm observing them. I'm usually happy if they aren't swearing, littering or spitting on the ground, but some things just cross the line into out-right cruelty, and I think those people ought to be judged and corrected by those around them.

If she seriously doesn't know any better than to not say things like that, then, she could glean it from the horrified reactions of the people around her who heard what she said. Logical consequences.

Like I said, if I were in this situation, I would have had to play it by ear. I imagine I probably would have not tried to correct the mother in this case because I would have already determined that she would just take it out on her child after I was finished with her. Instead, I might have tried to engage the little boy myself with some big smiles and conversation, perhaps asking him some friendly questions about Thomas or his favourite cartoons, or something, just to show him some kindness.... and distract him from his mother's words.

Trin.


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## Breeder (May 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FreeRangeMama* 
The way he was acting would fall under "age appropriate behaviour", so she is calling him bad for behaving like a child. He doesn't know better. *She is the PARENT. She SHOULD know better.* It is not the same thing AT ALL! How is it not okay to be outraged at a grown up abusing a child? By stating that we don't know where the mother is coming from we are excusing the fact that she hit her child. Hitting a child is not okay. Ever!


Bolding mine.

The thing is a ridiculous amount of parents DO NOT KNOW BETTER. Sure, they should. Heck, it blows my mind that people don't read or something when they are frustrated with their kids and just keep doing the same ineffective (or in this case abusive) thing, over and over.

I work with plenty of moms like this. I just model my GD behavior. When my co-worker complains "My kids are just horrible brats! They've been hitting each other and when I spank them it does nothing." I say, "Wow, I remember when J went through a hitting stage. We never spanked him, since we figured that would only show him that hitting is okay, which is exactly the opposite what we are trying to teach him. We tried several things..." Generally I get, "I never thought of it that way." Because they haven't.

In our society spanking is not considered "hitting" (although that's what it truly is), it's a socially acceptable way to discipline children (although it's ineffective and does more harm than good).

These women I work with are good people, they try hard, work hard and love their kids fiercely. When they do things like this, it's not because they want to be abusive, it's because they DON'T know there is another way.

I'm very proud to say that in the past year of working here I've turned two women totally against spanking.









So many people aren't 'readers', they don't consider parenting something you 'learn', they just do what their parents did and figure they turned out all right. It's sad, it needs to change. Opening our mouths with kindness can help plant seeds of change.

Next time I am in line with someone who is at their wits end, I vow to say something kind and diffuse the situation if I can.


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