# Gentle Dicipline for strong willed children



## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

My kids are very VERY stubborn and strong willed. A lot of the GD techniques do absolutely NOTHING. It feels to me like the only thing they really respond to is anti GD stuff, strong voice/yelling, time outs, threats, ect. I don't want to parent like this but I also want my children to be well behaved. Not saying I am one of those people who parents with an iron fist or has unreasonable expectations of their kids, I am just saying I don't want my kids hitting eachother, throwing toys, pouring juice into the carpet, drawing on the tv, hitting the cat, stealing food from the bins at the grocery store, running off into the street, ect.

Half the time when I try to do gentler things -like explaining why we don't hit, or putting them on time out- they yell things like "no!" in my face or pound on the door (I rarely put them in time out for longer than a minute or two, and usually it's more of a time out for ME so that I don't lose my temper).

My therapist gave me a book called "Magic 123" and I haven't read it yet, anyone heard of it? Is there anything else I can do to be gentler but still very effective with my discipline?

My husband and I are both extremely stubborn, strong willed people and our children are no different. I am really starting to wonder if the people for whom very gentle parenting worked are also really calm and patient, and thus have calm, patient children.

Also, I was abused as a child and this really effects my parenting a lot. I was raised by two authoritarian parents and I have a hard time not reverting to that style when frustrated. I *want* so badly to be different, and I'm already a lot better, but I just can't manage to get there all the way.

Any tips are appreciated.


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## Bitzy (Oct 6, 2008)

I'm in the same boat, so no advice but I'm giving this a bump


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

It sounds like you're trying to use more gentle techniques - which I applaud you for - but your basic mindset about discipline is the same. It sounds like you're still looking for ways to get your kids to do what you tell them to do...and I think discipline works much better if you come it at looking for ways for everyone to get all of what she needs and as much of what she wants as possible. I would think in terms of solving problems, rather than getting kids to do something.

So, why are your kids taking food from the grocery store bins? Would they like a snack? it's really hard for me to shop and keep passing by all the yummy stuff... maybe you could start off by grabbing a package of something they like so they have something to nibble. Or if it's the bins that they like, maybe you could have them each get a quarter pound of something from the bins. Would it help to have them riding in the cart? They're still very little, and sometimes impulses get the better of little kids. Or maybe they could switch off being in the cart and walking... and you could find jobs for each to do to help you, like finding a certain item (maybe even make them each a list, with pictures if need be) or organizing items in the cart. Maybe none of this will work, but if you ask them for their suggestions and ideas and try some things out, at least you'll be working with them, on the same "team"... and then after a successful trip to the store you can all feel good about your accomplishment.

IME, the kinds of time-outs you're using often just escalate power struggles with strong-willed children. If it's a time out for you, how about telling them that you're really angry and need to take some time to calm down, and going into your room for a couple of minutes?

dar


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

Actually I work very hard to solve problems and make sure their needs are met. For instance, whenever we go to the grocery store, I feed them RIGHT BEFORE. Either just before leaving, or I feed them on the road. In the case I am thinking of particularly, it had been literally minutes since they had eaten a full meal. They are the age now where they absolutely refuse to ride in the cart. If I put them in there, I'd have to screaming children on my hands. I do assign them jobs in the store, AND I buy them 1 or 2 "treats" when we go as well, so they know if they ask for those yogurt covered pretzels that they always are going for in the bulk bins, I will buy it for them. Giving them a package isn't possible in that situation, becuase it's sold in bulk. I have given them packages of food in the past to eat while we are shopping, but they almost always see something else they want and start screaming for that or taking it.

It's not that I want to force them into doing what I want them to do, but some things are inherently not ok. Like running into the street or stealing food. I take them to the park to run around, and we have a decent backyard they run in as well, but that doesn't stop them from running down the driveway into the street whenever we leave the house.

I guess I could put myself on time out, but what do I do when, say, they do something dangerous or hurtful? Mostly the things that get them a time out is hitting, biting, kicking, ect. Anything where there is a safety issue. And it's not like I am leaving them in there for a bazillion years, we're talking 2-3 minutes, if that. Half the time I don't even shut the door. If I do the whole "this is why we don't hit" stuff, I get zero results. Zero.


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## BonMaman (Sep 25, 2005)

I can identify with your frustration. This is me







: and







: feeling like I am







. Makes me







when my DS1







: with me despite all my efforts to meet his needs and those of his siblings. When I can't, I want to







.


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## Tiffany_PartyOf7 (Mar 1, 2009)

I totally understand your frustration. We have been a yelling home for too long - and it has worked. My kids listen when we threaten and yell. BUT, I know they fear me and don't respect me LOL. So, we are starting to try more gentle discipline measures but it's going to be a long road. I hope to get some ideas from this thread.


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## Surfacing (Jul 19, 2005)

I have struggled with this same thing, questioning and trying out different parenting styles. I think we have to put aside preconceived notions or ideals about how we want to parent and how we wish our kids would respond -- and look at what our child needs and is responding to.

Like you, I need at times to be able to say, "Don't do that!" and have it respected. Nothing wrong with that. My very strong willed dd1 seems to like boundaries, when she tests and tests and tests and I remain firm even though she wails and screams, a few minutes later it's all hugs and "i love you's". My pdoc also said that very strong willed children need boundaries.

I think it's possible to have both GD and some more authoritative parenting. You have to find what works for you and your family. There is no "one size fits all" or "If only was doing this GD thing right it would work on my strong willed kids." Hog wash. There are ideals that we can work towards but if reality calls for some other techniques as well, you are wise to respond. Find what fits for you and your family.

As a side note, now that dd1 is about 4 y.o., I have been reading The Explosive Child (forget the author's name). There are some good techniques in there for helping your child to stop and cool off and learn to think through problems and frustrations. It also helps parents to think about what their priorities are and how to chose your battles. This has been helping take the frustration level down in our home and work better together. Just thought I'd mention it.


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## sonnya (Mar 9, 2009)

Oh, I am with you on this!
I find the children are each so different. You may be right with the gentle, peaceful people and their gentle peaceful children to some extent.

I never knew how loud I could be until I encountered my middle child, now 7. If it were just my other two I would never be yelling or shouting or doing time outs.
Sometimes that is the only thing he responds to. Some behaviors are not acceptable, and I don't hit him, or belittle, or shame him, but sometimes being taken out of the situation, and being at a distance is what helps. He decides when to come out- when he is ready to talk to me about whatever it was, or apologise to the sibling he was hurting, etc... it is usually a minute or two. Sometimes he gets to playing all by himself in the place I put him, and it takes alot longer before he wants to rejoin us, which tells me that it also helps him to have a few moments alone.

When I realized I was not coping with going grocery shopping with my children I found ways to do it without them, now that they are at school in the mornings, or they stay at home,(we have a housekeeper, so they stay with her,) or I dash out when my husband comes home in the evening.
As they get older it's a treat for them to come along, so they behave really well and are helpful.

Even with all the advice in the world, you have to find what works for you. If you are firm in yourself what the boundaries are they will also learn them.
Good luck with this most frustrating, yet rewarding time!


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## foreverinbluejeans (Jun 21, 2004)

It is very important to use gentle discipline with strong willed children when they are young. Gentle discipline is kind of a bad name - it's effective parenting. Gentle makes it sound like wimpy parenting. It's supposed to be parenting without punishment but somewhere along the way using time-outs and other punishments have been considered, at least by some, part of gentle discipline.

If you don't learn effective non-punishment oriented parenting now what are you going to do with a strong willed child when they are 16 and 6'2" and weigh 210 pounds. One of my sons was that big. Another was almost 6 foot at 13. I am a single mother and am 5'2". There were 3 of them 1 of me.

Shouting, spanking, grounding, making threats, and punishing don't work, make them hate you at least while they are teens, and you may loose them forever. I don't have a lot of time now but I wanted to write a little to move this up and I will write more later.

Right now you are bigger and smarter than you children and it is time to take control. I think Without Spanking or Spoiling is the best book of all. It is an old book, I think 1981, by Elizabeth Crary that changed my like. My oldest was born in 1979 and it taught me how to parent. It is a small book with almost no theory and all how to's. She has a newer book that is a how to book that I will find the name of that I don't think is quite as good. Public libraries or LLL Libraries may have Without Spanking or Spoiling.

More later.


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

I would just like to say that I do NOT think it is ok to yell at, threaten, or spank your kids. I've never grounded them, taken away things, or anything like that. And I find it offensive you seem to think so. I DO NOT DO PHYSICAL PUNISHMENT. Ever.

There is a differerence between yelling and resorting to the only parenting style you really know when *frustrated and upset* and having that be your goal style of parenting, or a style you think is ok. I'm glad you're able to practice perfect gentle disicpline without ever doing those things. I'm not perfect, and I went through pretty severe abuse as a child. It's actually a miracle I'm even sane, let alone able to _even aspire_ to a different way of parenting.

If I really thought SPANKING of all things was ok, why would I even be posting here? Shoot, why would I even be on MDC at all?

Thanks for the book recommendation.


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## Maiasaura (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Surfacing* 
I think it's possible to have both GD and some more authoritative parenting. You have to find what works for you and your family. There is no "one size fits all" or "If only was doing this GD thing right it would work on my strong willed kids." Hog wash. There are ideals that we can work towards but if reality calls for some other techniques as well, you are wise to respond. Find what fits for you and your family.

hello, thread. omg, this quote is so spot-on.
my ds is 8yo now. oh BOY was he hard to parent as a smaller child, and still can be. he's _very_ strong willed.
i decided a long time ago that i had to find some mix of parenting styles that work in my house. i've run the gamut from as GD as i could, to spanking







: to everything in between. it's been a journey, i tell you!

i used 123 Magic. i still do, sometimes. you can use a method without agreeing with some of what they say (like the comparing kids to wild animals, FI).
i don't have a problem with "getting kids to do what you want". mine is not a consensual household. i believe kids have parents for a reason, and that is to guide and help them, and yes, sometimes just outright tell them what to do. i often explain why. sometimes it's not till later, though.
i seldom pull the "because i said so" but when i do, it's because he's pulling every ace from his sleeve and trying to deflect the problem elsewhere (IOW get me distracted).

when i tell my son to Do X and i want him to do it without question, sometimes i have my reasons, and i may not be able to explain them Right Now. we've discussed this. i've said, for instance, that what if there is a <insert danger here> where i have to make a snap decision that involves his safety-- yes, i expect him to comply _immediately_, without question, and that sometimes he has to trust me on that one because i am his mom, i am the adult, i have more life experience, and i am the one who loves him most of all the people in the world. and sometimes when i want him to Do X Immediately Without Question, it's a practice for if there's ever that <insert danger here> time. it's never arbitrary and i don't use that indiscriminately.

as for the grocery store example, he still, at 8, rides in the cart (of course in the big part







) most of the time. he knows he can't control himself enough to walk alongside, and most of the time chooses to ride because of that. but when he was three, or five, he always rode, because it was ride or don't go. i often had to find ways to go alone, even though i wanted so badly to be one of those moms whose kid could handle it.
i thought "_why_, oh why can't i just walk with my kid into the store and have it not be a huge deal/meltdown/catastrophe?" but it ended up being about my acceptance that it just could not.
i used to think "why does GD work for every other parent i know except for me? why does every other mama on the playground have a velcro child that sticks right by them and doesn't need constant hovering so they don't run in the street and die? why don't the other mamas' kids run in the street like mine does? why can i only go to playgrounds with fences or my child risks his life?" and on and on and on.
the acceptance came hard. real hard. and what came with it was a lot of confidence, eventually, that i just had a different child who needed different parenting and different circumstances.
thankfully he doesn't even remember not going to the grocery store much







but as he got older, i would (and still do) tell him that his behavior there told me he needed more practice, and that i would just have to take him every time, and even more times, so he could practice appropriate behavior in the store








(it sucked for me, but i did do that for awhile, and i do it with manners at the table, too)

it takes time. time takes time. LOTS of time. mama, your kids will eventually grow out of this, a tiny bit at a time, and it will seem excruciatingly slow and frustrating in the meanwhile. i know how it is to have a high-need, very very spirited kid (go you; i can't even begin to imagine two) and if you ever want to PM me to commiserate, i will be right there for you


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

Thank you for your comment, Maia. I am so relieved to hear I am not the only mother who has thought, "why can't my kids be like this? why doesn't this work for me?!?!"

I'll work harder at acceptance.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

beware 123 magic - fyi its NOT gentle discipline book (unless you re the kind of person who thinks as long as you aren't spanking or yelling then you are being gentle)

It is ESPECIALLY important to use GD with spiritied children, IME.

You shouldn't be trying to make your kids like anything. And by "work" you mean why isnt what your doing get them to be who you want them to be? because they are their own people.

trust me I understand your frustrations. DS1 is ASD/sensory issue/explosive, spirited. DD is very physical. the hitting, aggression, toy throwing, destructive behavior is VERY hard to deal with.

have you read any books? are you open to reading any? If so, please throw 123 MAgic in the trash where it belong (hehehe) and check out the gentle discipline book recommendation thread for a good book. (there is a sticky that of gentle discipoline resources, there is also a thread on the board of books listed by how often they are recommended)

I really agree with what Dar posted.

If you don't want to read, why not try picking 1 or 2 main concerns you have, and posting here to ask advice. The best way to do this IMO is to start a new thread.

Thread Title: clearly stating bottom line of what you need help (fighting/destructive behavior/not following directions"

In the Thread: Give an example of how a scene usually plays out, so we can see what you usually do. Let us know what you have already tried, how you tried it, and what the results were.

Then we can better address your concerns. It's very hard to help someone who says "I tried everything and nothing works" you have tried everything YOU can think of, but there is always more. also, when people give advice, even if its things you tried (but forgot to mention) or even if they are things that wont work for you, there may be something in there that will help you brainstorm up some new ideas of your own to try.

good luck! this parenting thing is hard!


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

I guess by "work", having me say "hitting hurts people, please do not hit your sister" not having them 1. laugh in my face 2. scream at me "no" or 3. keep right on hitting just seconds after saying this. That would be the biggest issue I am dealing with. I have tried separating them, distracting them with activities (coloring, tv sometimes, going outside to the park), explaining why we don't hit, quick time outs. And yet they do it. Daily. MULTIPLE times a day.

How can you gently discipline a child who yells or laughs in your face? I MEAN REALLY.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

I do all the time







I would love if they were laughing in my face I usually have a finger in my face yelling NO or my daughter just keeps hitting and hitting and hitting until I move my son out of the way. I know its hard, but for my strong willed children punitive measures such as time out do not help, but make matters worse (may help in short term not in the long term)

definitely get a copy of connection parenting if you can.

I also really love how to talk so kids will listen, but for what your concerns are I think connection parenting is your best bet.


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

This is the book that saved my sanity:

Setting Limits with Your Strong-Willed Child : Eliminating Conflict by Establishing Clear, Firm, and Respectful Boundaries by Robert J. MacKenzie

It probably doesn't meet many of the GD "rules". It does use time outs. It does involve coercion.

However, the bottom line for me, is it helped ME be more gentle than I was before. It helped me to be effective in setting my expectations for my child's behavior, in a way he could understand. When I follow this, there is no need to overreact, and no situations escalating to me losing my temper. For me, it is a better way, that overall is both gentler and more effective than what was going on before.

Once we got through the initial stage of establishing a new system without the "dances" and power struggles we had been involved in before, more of the GD approaches became something I could actually use and have them be effective.


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

I will check out both of those books, Super Glue Mommy and LLP. Thank you!!

my other concern is bedtime. This doesn't always happen, but what do you do when your kids outright REFUSE to lay down and go to sleep (and it's waaaaay past their bedtime. I'm not at all strict about bedtimes, but I do want them in bed before it's ridiculously late). They are especially this way for naptimes, even when I am consistent about the nap schedule.

I have tried just letting them not nap, and it's a disaster 100% of the time. My oldest gets really mean and irritable when she doesn't nap (and has way more tantrums) and my youngest absolutely melts down. She gets to the point where she does nothing but scream becuase she's so frustrated/overstimulated/exhausted. What is a gentle way to get them to nap and go to bed without a big production? Do I really just have to accept that it's going to be miserable almost every day, twice a day?


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

This is the book that saved my sanity:

Setting Limits with Your Strong-Willed Child : Eliminating Conflict by Establishing Clear, Firm, and Respectful Boundaries by Robert J. MacKenzie

It probably doesn't meet many of the GD "rules". It does use time outs. It does involve coercion.

However, the bottom line for me, is it helped ME be more gentle than I was before. It helped me to be effective in setting my expectations for my child's behavior, in a way he could understand. When I follow this, there is no need to overreact, and no situations escalating to me losing my temper. For me, it is a better way, that overall is both gentler and more effective than what was going on before.

Once we got through the initial stage of establishing a new system without the "dances" and power struggles we had been involved in before, more of the GD approaches became something I could actually use and have them be effective.

I came back to add that I had previously tried 1-2-3 Magic, and our son just blew through it. Figured it out and how to work that system to keep me on a chain and yank it all day long. The "Setting Limits" system was much more effective. No playing around, straight to the point. Within a week of starting this, it had pretty much eliminated his physical aggression toward other kids and toward me. He also dropped his defiance and disrespectful screaming at me and started cooperating. The transformation was amazing. I feel that it saved my sanity and our relationship. Once the defiance was gone, a really sweet kid emerged.


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Talula Fairie* 
I am really starting to wonder if the people for whom very gentle parenting worked are also really calm and patient, and thus have calm, patient children.

My husband is extremely high strung and short tempered and not at all gentle. Patience is something I'm gaining with practice (patience has always been a problem for me). I also am easily upset by loud noises and have some anxiety. I likely was a high needs/sensory child, just not something my mom would have known anything about.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Talula Fairie* 
Also, I was abused as a child and this really effects my parenting a lot. I was raised by two authoritarian parents and I have a hard time not reverting to that style when frustrated. I *want* so badly to be different, and I'm already a lot better, but I just can't manage to get there all the way.

This is a constant inner battle for me... not being like my mom.

My only tip is consistency. Frustration is eased with breathing for me. (Sometimes I have to cover my ears or else I think my head will explode).


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

i definitely have sensory issues too - no surprise where my son gets it - im also loud, high strung, and my husband is always stressed and very impatient. PAtience doesnt come naturally, not that my mom had any for me growing up. my kids are not calm or patient either, but I am hoping they will learn to be as I learn to be.


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Has anyone suggested Siblings Without Rivalry? That's a great book, with practical advice on what to do when your kids are fighting with each other and how to create an atmosphere that facilitates working together, rather than competition. It is hard work, though...

For bedtime and naptime, how are you handling things now? What does your routine look like, and what are your expectations? Are your kids in separate areas? Can they look at books quietly in bed during rest time? Things like that might help...

dar


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## Maiasaura (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *llp34* 
This is the book that saved my sanity:

Setting Limits with Your Strong-Willed Child : Eliminating Conflict by Establishing Clear, Firm, and Respectful Boundaries by Robert J. MacKenzie

what ages is this book appropriate for? i might check it out, too, if it applies to older kids (mine's 8).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Talula Fairie* 
Thank you for your comment, Maia. I am so relieved to hear I am not the only mother who has thought, "why can't my kids be like this? why doesn't this work for me?!?!"

I'll work harder at acceptance.

i bet. isn't relief....well, relieving?







seriously, my kid is one difficult kid sometimes, but at 8 when i'm having a hard time, what sometimes gets me through is realizing how intermittent it is now, compared to, oh, say...3. 3 was _hard._ 3 is hard for parents of typical kids. my goodness i can't believe i survived.
someone clued me to Louise Bates Ames's books when my ds was 3. i was sure i was raising a sociopath







(it wasn't funny, then, though).
she is spot-on for age appropriate behavior. not so great for discipline ideas ("drop your child off at a babysitter") but for what's normal? it was a big WHEW. when i read "Your Three-Year Old" i almost cried with relief-- other people's kids did the same things, and so much so that there was a whole _book_ written about it! and she's got a book for every year of age! whee!

oh, acceptance...do. but remember also that acceptance doesn't mean approval. just acceptance. you don't have to be a doormat either









hugs, you.


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## SunShineSally (Jan 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BonMaman* 







I can identify with your frustration. This is me







: and
 






: feeling like I am







. Makes me







when my DS1







: with me despite all my efforts to meet his needs and those of his siblings. When I can't, I want to







.


Awww someone else with a smiley addiction







:nana:







:









Be calm with it. I know with Ds he is very strong willed







It took him a long time to really see that it is better to talk to me about things. Now once in awhule he will just stop look at me and tell me "I am angery that..." Give it time Mama it will eventually happen


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

Here are some notes from connection parenting I think may give you some insight.

p135

If the only reason children have for not doing something is the fear of being punished, what guidelines will they have for behavior when no one is there to punish them?

more p135
we cannot control anyone's behavior but our own. true parental discipline leads children to self discipline.

more p135
though punishment may stop a challenging behavior temporarily, if the behavior is a communication of an unmet need, some form of needy behavior will persist. We cannot punish people into not having needs.

(punishment in this book includes time outs. they advocate time in's..ill get more into that in a second.) needy behaviors are temper tnatrums, whining, not listening, hitting, talking back, not cooperating, teasing, bullying, refusing to share, fighting with siblings, refusing to get dressed, name calling, hurting others, etc.

Children behave better when they feel better. Connect before you correct!

Here is how we have come to handle hitting in our house:

1) Stop the Hitting
2) Attend to the Hurt Child
3) Time In
4) Problem Solve
5) Restitution

Stop the Hitting:
You have two choices, move the child being hit, or stop the hand that is doing the hitting. I think which is best depends on the child. For my children it depends on the situation.
"Stop Hitting. I understand you are hurting too, but you may not hit your sister." If you feel comfortable with a "mad pillow" you can add "You may hit the mad pillow"
(I do this while starting step 2 - I am comforting/holding the physically hurt child during this time)

Attend to the hurt child. At this point I have already been giving my comfort physically and by defending them verbally to the other child, but after that short statement I have no reverted my full attention to the child who was attacked. "It hurts when people are not gentle with us. Are you okay?" (usually this is replied to with - she/he hit me!) and I say "I want to hear about you right now. Are you hurt?"

TIME IN. Once the hurt child is cared for, I bring the other child with me somewhere quiet and "away" to sit down. I then give info, state feelings, state needs, listen with love, and make my request.
*give info: Hitting hurts. You may not hit your sister.
*state feelings: I feel upset when I see someone I love hurting someone I love.
*state need: I need all of us to feel safe
*listen with love: I know you must be upset too, because the only time you are hurtful to others is when something is hurting you. I am willing to listen to your feelings. (then listen empathetically)
*make request: Are you willing to work together to find a safe way to tell your sister how you feel? (this leads into the next part)

Problem Solve: you have already begun this process because you have stated your feelings and needs and your child has stated their feelings and needs. you have the concerns on the table. Time to brainstorm together to find a mutually agreeable solution. Write down all their ideas and your ideas (best to let them give some ideas first, of they have none then you can suggest some) write down all ideas at this time, don't evaluate - write down even the ideas you don't agree with. Once you are done, then go through the list. let child know how you feel about ideas and let them let you know how they feel. you can say "there's an idea. my concern with that is _____, so I think we will have to cross that one off, unless you have an idea how to ease my concerns about that idea? Decide which ideas you like, and which you plan to follow through on. A solution might look something like this:

In the future when you get mad, what can you do instead of hitting?
push
yell
hit a mad pillow
come ask mommy for help calming down
go into another room and take deep breaths
draw a picture about how I feel
tell my sibling how I feel

when you go through this list you may say "my concern with hitting and yelling is its still hurtful to others" these other suggestions sound like they would work for everyone though.

Step 5: Restitution: It is up tpo the child to apologize. I wouldnt force it. I would say "When we do something wrong, we can still make things right. We can apologize to someone by saying sorry. You may want to apologize to your sister to make things right again"

For less verbal children, some parts of this may be skipped, and some phrases may be simplified. instead of problem solving with them, you may just offer up some solutions and model them for the child.

When you see a problem escalating you can say to the child "do you need help calming down, or can you calm down on your own" for my son I say "calm down, or mommy help" he lets me know what he needs. if I see he says calm down but cant I will say "you wanted to try calming down on your own first, but you needed my help after all." then I step in to help him, we take a time in, but its a preventative time in, so we jsut talk about how we feel and what we can do when we feel that way. A preventative time in would look more like this:

Acknowledge: You feel really ... right now"
Validate: It's really hard to/when ..... , isn't is?"
Accpet: It's okay to (cry, say 'xyz')
Listen: I'll stay with you. I have a hug for you if you want it"

and then of course, give them the tools they need for the future.

You can also model time outs. instead of giving time outs, take time outs. when you feel you are getting angry say "im getting so mad! I am taking a time out to calm down." and do so. this can be in another room, or just sit down against the wall and keep to yourself for a few minutes and focus on being calm.

Children do what they see us do, not what we tell them to do. We cant control children, we can only control ourselves.

Connection Parenting p150
Parenting is a struggle because we cannot control children's behavior. When we see our job as that of meeting childrens needs we enjoy children, because we can meet childrens needs.

childrens behaviors are caused by their unmet needs, so this is solving the problem at its route. children who are action out are usually trying to tell us "i need more love" (i find this to be true with my children! I can always tell who my connection is the weakest with by who ishaving the most behavioral issues at the time.

It really helps to look at the bigger picture too. sometimes you may think something isnt working, because they arent responding to it that second, but these things take time. and it works in the long run. punishment gives temporary results only. it does not set our children up for success in our absence, or teach them what they should do. It only teaches them what not to do out of fear, not what they shoud do...

If you do yell or do something not so gentle yourself, you can model all you are trying to teach your child. You can Rewind, Repair, and Replay.

Tell your child "I am working on not yelling anymore. If I start yelling please remind me to stop by telling me 'talk to me like I'm someone you love'

when you catch yourself yelling, or they do, you

rewind "Thank you for reminding me to stop yelling" or" Oops, I was yelling. Let's rewind."

repair " Im sorry, you didnt deserve to be yelled at. what you did was not okay but yelling at you is not okay either.

replay: let's start over. I feel frustrated because I need...

It may seem like all this takes a lot of time, but it happens pretty quickly, and in the long term, it takes less time as our children learn and their needs get met and their behavior improves. Yelling/punishing may give short term results, but the problems dont go away. in fact, they may escalate because they are causing emotional pain, which creates more need in the child, which creates more of those "needy" behaviors.

I know its a lot to take in, so I really want to say that from what you concerns are and the things you have said in this post, the book I most recommend is connection parenting. It's an easy read, definitely a book you can pick up and put down, and easy to book mark a few pages that give strategies on how to handle these situations.

Remember, how we treat them is what we teach them.
Children do what we do, not what we tell them to do.

I hope this was helpful to you, I have more to say, but I think I've said enough!


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

I'm more on the 'parent in charge' side of GD, but still nonpunitive and nonthreatening. I personally love Anthony Wolf's books. His general discipline book is:

The Secret of Parenting: How to be in charge of today's kids, from toddlers to teens, without threats or punishments

And his sibling book is, "Mom! Jason's breathing on me!"

I guess if I had to sum him up in a nutshell, his technique is to disengage from the struggle - NOT disengage from the child, as in ignoring the child, but disengage from the struggle itself, because a lot of times kids will bring in things for shock value to distract you from the real issue at hand (like screaming NO at you when you're trying to stop them from hitting each other). You basically refuse to take the bait when they're doing stuff to distract from the issue, stick to the issue at hand, and then later address what they were doing to try to distract you.

His sibling idea is mainly to let them work things out themselves, if it isn't involving someone getting hurt. To NOT take sides, but talk to the 'victim' at a separate time to address things if you feel the need. To empower them to have their own relationship with each other without coming to you to resolve everything...even if their resolutions seem to be unfair to you, they have their own ideas about what they'll accept and what they won't as THEIR kind of fair. But that part usually is for older kids, so I'm still wrkingon helping them figure things out cause mine are 5 and 2-1/2.

Soooooooo. If they are hitting at each other. I physically get in between then and say something like, "WOAH, not OK! This is not a great way to solve whatever the problem is!" Then I talk with both of them and figure out the problem, and help them talk to each other about solving it - help them get out into the open what each one was trying to do, and figure out something that works for both of them. If one of them is sassy, I ignore it, or just say, "That's rude, and I don't like it." and drop that part. Then later in the day, or at bedtime, I'll talk to them calmly about how it's OK to be mad, but not OK to talk like that to each other or to me.

As for other stuff, my general mode is:
1) Make the request once, maybe twice.
2) Go to them and help make it happen, while repeating the request. Tell them what they could do instead next time.
3) If they wig out, validate their upset and empathize, and explain about the situation again briefly.
4) Drop it, and move forward with the day/activity/whatever.
5) Later on in the day, talk about the situation and how it could have been better handled.

I guess basically what I'm trying to do is replace the undesireable behaviors with more desireable ones....not have them behaving to avoid being caught or punished for doing something.

Hope this helps.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

what you say sounds similiar to me only I see myself as the parent who works _with_ my kids not the parent who does things _to_ my kids. but overall, sounds like we handle things very similar 4ofus


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Oh, I work with them a lot - it's just not a dealbreaker to me if I have to pull rank after I've tried for a couple minutes to work things out with them. And I agree, our households probably look pretty similar day to day.

And it's funny about the "with" vs "to" thing, because I'm usually saying that people probably thing I'm not "doing" anything when I discipline my kids in public because I'm not doing anything TO them, that is, I'm not punishing them. And I also write about working with the kids thorugh their phases instead of trying ot extinguish them.

I think, probably the main thing keeping me from being an actual CL parent is that I don't always think that there's something else to try to make things work out - frankly, I'm not patient enough for that







- if I spend a couple minutes trying to work things out and they're not responding, I just make a decision (that is the path of least resistance) and go with it. I'll empathize and validate, but move forward nonetheless.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

oh im sorry you seemed to have misunderstood my comment. I wasn't saying your approach was a "to" not a "with" approach. I was saying our approach is a uncannily unlike! just that I refer to mine as the "with not to" approach and you refer to yours and the "parent in charge" approach but we are really doing many of the same things! ETA: this is still coming out wrong lol - clarifying. we are both parents who use a "with not to" approach. but that's what I see my approach as where you call yours a parent in charge. If you are the parent in charge who does with not to, I don't know my equivalent to that. I don't know what "end" im on, im not CL, maybe I lean that way on some issues, but I guess the closest I can get is im not a parent who is in control I am parent who is teaching her children self control? I think its the same thing in the end (based on the way you approach and I approach it), we are just getting to the same end point with a different way of looking at it.

PS - I'm not a CL parent either, despite how it may sound by some of my posts, I have had a shift in thinking that makes me look at things from more of a CL point of view, but I can't find a way to practice it fully in a way that is practical in my family. we'll see what the future brings, we are always growing!

I just don't look at is as my "pulling rank" but I think the bottom line so to speak is the same in my family as it is in yours


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, I guess technically I do do things TO them because I make them do things they don't want to do sometimes (and sometimes this involves me physically moving them - gently, but moving them nonetheless)....however, I don't do things TO them in the sense that I don't punish them, or threaten to punish them in order to get them to comply with me. Does that make sense?

I love thinking about this stuff, so I've been enjoying this - I wasn't offended at all, I probably read too much into your post.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

I guess in that sense I do things to them too, as you can probably tell by my post, as I will take the hand that is hitting to stop the hitting, I will move the child who is being hit, I will pick them up and move them into another rooms, etc. I guess it's not a real issue for me because they either 1) they are already upset so I dont feel they are upset by my touching them or 2) it seems when I get involved they immediately calm down. its almost as if they are thankful I have arrived to help...

but when I say that you and I don't do "to" then I mean that you and I dont threaten or punish - so yes you made sense. I was just thinking how even though you and I think of our approach in different lights, to an outsider it must look like we are doing the exact same thing.


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## foreverinbluejeans (Jun 21, 2004)

I'm back. I'm been thinking about you and your strong willed children, they are only 5 and 3? So young. It's important to get things under control. I'm going to use a word that I almost never use, the word never.

I think my most important tip would be to never punish. NEVER. No time-outs. Punishments do not teach good behavior. At best they will stop bad behavior. Stubborn kids will hate the parent for punishing them and hate the other child. Hate sounds like a hard word but the feeling may become hate as the child gets older. Punishment doesn't work for any child and it really does bad things for a stubborn child. It's OK for mothers to take time outs.

Never use threats. You don't have to make threats. You are the mamma, the one in control, the one many times bigger. Say what you mean, mean what you say. Then do it.

Try minimizing chances of misbehavior. Don't give kids juice so they can spill on the carpet. Don't leave out stuff so they can mark up TV. You probably don't have to worry about the cat. Usually they get away if they are getting hurt.

If they are running into the street get the little harnesses and leashes. These can be used in grocery stores also. They aren't very expensive. Go into problem solving mode. Become smarter than the 3 and 5 year olds that have taken over your house.

Something parents trying to be good parents or trying to do gentle discipline will give mini-lectures. It doesn't work with most kids, it really doesn't work with out of control kids. You may need to step in and stop behavior. If they are throwing a toy, take the toy away or the child away.

I was looking for the name of the other book by Elizabeth Crary and it is Love & Limits. It's small and $10 at full price - great deal! She now has classes about a system she talks about in the book called STAR. If you go to www.starparenting.com you can find out more info.

As you and your children get more under control you will find much of what you were thinking was being stubborn was misbehavior. Being strong willed is different.


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## foreverinbluejeans (Jun 21, 2004)

I was looking over everything and I think maybe you thought I thought from my last post that you thought spanking is OK (a lot of thoughts!). I didn't think that and I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings









You ask if gentle parenting works for people who are gentle and patient. I too was abused and raised by authoritarian parents. I didn't think I could have children and became pregnant the first time I tried before a surgery that would have left me unable to have children.

This was the late 70's. I decided to be different than my mother. I found LLL and Mothering Magazine. Without Spanking and Spoiling and William and Martha Sears influenced my early parenting. I became gentle and patient but am still strong willed. If backed into a corner I am stubborn. I went back to graduate school and finished masters degrees in adult education and health education and have almost finished a masters in counseling psychology and a doctorate in science education (I guess my education is the stubborn part). I have a grandson that is 6 months old.


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dar* 
Has anyone suggested Siblings Without Rivalry? That's a great book, with practical advice on what to do when your kids are fighting with each other and how to create an atmosphere that facilitates working together, rather than competition. It is hard work, though...

For bedtime and naptime, how are you handling things now? What does your routine look like, and what are your expectations? Are your kids in separate areas? Can they look at books quietly in bed during rest time? Things like that might help...

dar

I lay down with my 3 year old and put the 4 year old in her own bed (this is new, I used to just lay down in the bed with both of them). The 4 year old almost always has a fit if I try this during the day, whether in her bed or in our bed. Laying down and being quiet is ok, and she knows that. It often takes a lot of talking and attempting to reason with her to get her to do it, though, and it's exhausting. She used to just lay down no problem if I made sure it was the right time every day, but now that my husband works nights and is home during the day, they have started resisting naps.

The 3 year old flips out over naps almost every time lately, until she is utterly exhausted, finally melts down and (usually) agrees to nap. Other times I have to lay down with her and let her scream for what feels like an eternity until she finally passes out.

It's the 4 year old that will refuse to lay down on occasion, though. She used to do it EVERY SINGLE TIME, day and night, twice a day every day. At least things are not that bad now.


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## BonMaman (Sep 25, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
Here are some notes from connection parenting I think may give you some insight...

Thank you for these!







:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SunShineSally* 
Awww someone else with a smiley addiction







:nana:







:































Sometimes I think in smileys.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

In my experience with my kids (and from what I've heard from loads of other moms), when getting them down for a nap took more energy and took longer timewise than they would sleep for the nap, and starting messing with bedtime, it was time to ditch naps. Quiet playtime (reading, drawing, snuggled on the couch watching a movie) for a while so mom has a little break, sure. A little extra cranky in the evenings for a few weeks while they adjusted, yep. A much shorter (like, 30-45-minute) nap if they really really seemed to need it on a particularly hard day? OK. But dropping the nap was loads better than the daily battle to try to get someone to sleep who doesn't want to sleep, screwing up bedtime, and winding up with less net sleep hours per day, IMO.

Of course, my kids stopped napping at 26 and 28 months respectively, so the concept of a 3 or 4 year old napping is completely foreign to me.









Oh, and re: calm and patient parents parenting calm and patient kids gently, while I was a very calm and naturally compliant child (I joke with my parents sometimes that they slipped me sedatives in my dinner every night, I was so low key as a kid)....my own children, well, are not calm and patient by their natures (thanks, DH's DNA.







). Soooo.....if they were calm and compliant by nature like I was as a kid, this GD thing would be a BREEZE. I also remind my mom that she has no idea how easy she had it with me.







IMO, GD can be difficult with your typical active, opinionated kid. I find myself getting to boiling points that I never knew I had, and certainly didn't witness from my parents as a child (they were like Mr. and Mrs. Rogers







: ). I guess my point is that if I, who had a totally gentle (firm, but gentle) upbringing can find myself on the brink sometimes, I can't imagine how difficult it must be for adults who grew up in non-gentle/punitive households. My hats are TRULY off to anyone who breaks that cycle (including my husband







: , who had a pretty punitive upbringing and has broken that cycle with our children).


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
In my experience with my kids (and from what I've heard from loads of other moms), when getting them down for a nap took more energy and took longer timewise than they would sleep for the nap, and starting messing with bedtime, it was time to ditch naps. Quiet playtime (reading, drawing, snuggled on the couch watching a movie) for a while so mom has a little break, sure. A little extra cranky in the evenings for a few weeks while they adjusted, yep. A much shorter (like, 30-45-minute) nap if they really really seemed to need it on a particularly hard day? OK. But dropping the nap was loads better than the daily battle to try to get someone to sleep who doesn't want to sleep, screwing up bedtime, and winding up with less net sleep hours per day, IMO.

Of course, my kids stopped napping at 26 and 28 months respectively, so the concept of a 3 or 4 year old napping is completely foreign to me.










If I do that, as I explained, I spend the ENTIRE REST OF THE DAY listening to them scream, melt down, and harass eachother over every little thing. Not napping is NOT AN OPTION. They turn into miserable children when they don't nap.

The other problem I am having seems like a little one, but it's become a huge issue. The kids are drawing all over my walls. Several will have to be repainted and we will likely have to pay to get one of the doors replaced because they COLORED ALL OVER IT WITH A SHARPEE. They found it in a drawer leftover from when we moved and covered several walls and our bookcase with it before I could even catch them. Later they colored every single room in the house (and when I say every single room, I literally mean, every single room) over time. I kept taking away their markers and crayons becuase I didn't know what else to do. It took a team of about 10 people to help me scrub it all off.

Now I have started letting them color again (they have TONS of drawing paper and coloring books to choose from) and guess what? They immediately colored on the walls. Both in their bedroom and now a huge section of the kitchen. They use cheap paint (very cheap) at our housing complex, and it's gotten to the point where half of it is scrubbed off and I'm going to have to repaint my walls. Nevermind the fact that I'm sick, 5 months pregnant, and really having a hard time just keeping my head above water let alone scrubbing the walls. What is the gentle way to handle things like this? And I swear, if someone says "redirect them to their coloring books" I will scream out loud. THEY KNOW THEY ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO COLOR ON THE WALLS! They have tons of other options to color on.

AHHHHHH!!!! I AM SO FRUSTRATED!!!!! Why is parenting so hard? I don't even enjoy it much anymore. I know this is a hard time and this is a hard age, but I'm just at my wits end with them.


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Talula Fairie* 
What is the gentle way to handle things like this? And I swear, if someone says "redirect them to their coloring books" I will scream out loud.

I would take away ALL of the writing/marking instruments and keep them in a box that locks with a key. They could earn the use of them back by helping to clean the walls, and not until ALL of the walls are cleaned, so we are truly starting with a "clean slate". When they get the use of them back, it would be ONE writing instrument at a time, with a timer set for five minutes. One kid at a time if necessary. If they use them properly for five minutes, next time they get them for seven minutes. If they don't use them properly...meaning they color on something they shouldn't again....they get to help me clean it. If they mark on the walls and refuse to help clean it, they get a time out _alone_ for _as long as it takes_ me to clean it, and don't get to use the writing instruments again until I get an apology and promise to use them properly next time. And we repeat the experiment with the timer again, and with enough supervision that the _second_ the limits are disregarded, the consequences begin. For as many times as it takes to learn that the only way they get to use them is on paper, and that EVERY time they go outside of these limits, there are immediate consequences and they will lose the use of them until amends are made.

I am sure what I would do will not meet someone else's idea of gentle. But this is what I would do. It would work for me more than it would work to have my walls colored on. It would train them to use those tools within the boundaries that are acceptable to me. Eventually they would be using those tools in a way I could live with. Or they would not be using them, and I could live with that too, until they were ready to use them on my terms. At my house, this approach would be way gentler than what would happen if our kids were coloring on the walls and I did not have a strategy for how to deal with and and just got screaming mad each time.


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

I ended up putting them on a one minute time out so I could cool off, and they "helped" me attempt to clean the walls, but I gave up after a half hour becuase it was 9 in the morning and my fingers were getting sore. I'm going to have my husband do the rest. I explained to them that coloring on the walls is not ok, and that they can color in their coloring books or on paper if they want to color. I told them I would take away their crayons if they do it again. They seemed to get it? I don't know if it's "gentle" to threaten, but it's actually not a threat, I really will take away their crayons (again) next time.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

My dp is a very calm, patient person. I am not. lol. My parenting is very similar to The4ofUs's parenting (except my 2nd is still gestating







). I NEED to have a "parent in charge" style in order to stay calm and nice, and avoid yelling/shaming/other bad things.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
I'm more on the 'parent in charge' side of GD, but still nonpunitive and nonthreatening. I personally love Anthony Wolf's books. His general discipline book is:

The Secret of Parenting: How to be in charge of today's kids, from toddlers to teens, without threats or punishments

I was totally planning on recommending this book!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *foreverinbluejeans* 
I think my most important tip would be to never punish. NEVER. No time-outs. Punishments do not teach good behavior. At best they will stop bad behavior.

I agree with this, for the most part. I think punishments teach kids to "behave" for self centered reasons (ie, the difference between "I won't hit because I don't want a time out" and "I won't hit because it hurts to be hit.") And it undermines connection, which is, imo, the most important base for discipline.

However, I would understand someone using a TO as a last resort to deal with hitting or other similar behaviors. (I don't think it's a great idea, but I know that hitting etc, is really really frustrating for me, and causes a LOT of anger inside me. So I could see how, in some situations, after trying everything else, the main goal would be to just STOP the hitting, even if the motivation is self centered.) I think it could backfire, and would add another "layer" of issues that need to be worked through, though.


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

Most of the time, I use TOs when *I* am about to lose it. And they're often quick. I always, always explain to them why we don't hit and tell (not make) them apologize to their sibling and give them a hug afterwards. It's frustrating though, becuase it feels like I'm not getting any results.


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Talula Fairie* 
I don't know if it's "gentle" to threaten, but it's actually not a threat, I really will take away their crayons (again) next time.

IMO it's not a threat, it's a promise ! It's a logical consequence that they have been informed of in advance.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

My kids actually are not allowed to have markers or crayons unless they're in the same room with me, because we did have problems with the younger one writing on inappropriate surfaces. But I don't put the burden on her, I put it on me to keep them out of their reach. They may "know" to not write on the walls, but impulse control is really sketchy until well into the third year...and yeah, your 4-1/2 yo should know better _and_ have a little better impulse control, but sometimes it's hard when the younger one is doing things, or suggesting things to resist that temptation - I mean, he's only 4-1/2...and sometimes BIG reactions from mom, even if they aren't positive reactions, are exciting to see that you (the kid) have the power to make happen...So IMO the onus is on the parent to prevent things that really, really bother them from having the opportunity to happen. In my case, that means markers and crayons are off limits unless you're in the room with mom. They found a sharpie, and well, it happens. Mine found a fine point sharpie somewhere (I have no idea where) and decorated my coffee table and living room windowsills. I wasn't happy to say the least, but....I mean, things happen. BUT - I keep the other markers and crayons out of reach without supervision, so it doesn't keep happening repeatedly.

This is about getting a different mindset, not figuring out what you can do to the kid to stop them from behaving a certain way. Not that logical consequences don't sometimes have their place IMO, but making it an "us vs them" dynamic tends to escalate things and create disconnect. It's about realizing what's developmentally appropriate and not punishing kids for things that they are going to grow out of anyway - not that the things shouldn't be addressed or resolved, because they absolutely should - they should be guided towards more appropriate behaviors every time, just minus the punishments to muck things up. Focus the lesson *on* the lesson, not on adding something to it to 'teach' them. You can be firm and serious and temporarily remove a child from a situation or temporarily remove an object without being shaming or punitive. Yes, they might be mad. That's OK. You can empathize with them, and validate their upset. But you can still make sure that they are being guided to the more appropriate behaviors.

I also understand about the naps and meltdowns, but I can almost guarantee you (from personal experience, unfortunately) that the stress you're gaining from trying to make them sleep, the stress they're feeding off of that they sense from you, is probably working against you. I would fully enforce a quiet rest time, separated from each other but trying to MAKE a kid actually sleep who has no interest in sleeping is an exercise in extreme frustration (which I know of first hand...I have had mighty battles with a kid fighting sleep, that just led me to an ugly place I didn't being, and them feeding off my anger by fighting even more).

I don't know how to explain it....I'm *not* an unlimitedly patient, ultra zen, consensual mom. But situations like you're describing, I would either remove my kid (even if it was really inconvenient - like the grocery store, or separating them from each other if they're hitting each other) or remove the objects (crayons, toys being thrown or things being used to hurt others, for a few minutes and then giving it back to them to try again - and not saying, "this toy is in time out for the rest of the night because you hit your brother with it" but "woah, weneed to take a break from that until you can use it more gently...then a few minutes later, "let's try again to use this safely"), and do it every time until they understood. Not angry, not shaming, just calm, firm, and very consistent. It can be exhausting in the beginning (I've done it while pregnant, too, so I sympathize) and you have to be right on them. But staying away from the "You did X bad thing so I'm doing Y to you" and instead approaching it as "You're showing me you can't handle X right now, so let's go Y for a few minutes" works out really well AND keeps your connection.

It's really difficult to put into words sometimes. I hope some of the above makes sense.


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

The crayons actually are put away unless I am in the room with them. However, if I say, have to pee while they are coloring? You'd be surprised how much wall they can cover in that one minute. In this particular case this morning, there were two broken off crayon pieces that no one saw...I'm guessing they were under the kitchen table...and the kids found them while I was checking my email on the other side of the same room (I THOUGHT they were eating their breakfast). I turned around and there the dining room wall was, covered from end to end in crayon. It happened in less than five minutes. In fact, all the times they colored on the walls they found a discarded crayon or maker under a bed or in a drawer somewhere. Maybe I should have been more diligent about looking under things to make sure there were no writing utensils in the area, but I have also been vomiting nonstop for several months, with a nasty cold off and on during that time too (2 regular colds, one that lasted over a month and turned into bronchitis).

The napping, I've tried it both ways. I spent over a month not bothering with it becuase I was too sick to deal with it, and one of my children started having seizures partly from what I believe to be sleep deprivation. She really needs 14 hours a day and she was only getting 10-11. I noticed the seizures stopped when we started enforcing the naps again. And life is like 10000x more miserable when they don't nap. This is a non negotiable for me, and I will not be changing my mind on it. I think this is one of those things where it's ok to set a limit. And really? If they are not "feeding off my stress" at naptime, then they're going to be doing it the entire rest of the day and night until they go to sleep because every scream, fit, meltdown, tantrum, and fight will get me more and more and more stressed out until I am yelling far more than I want to admit. *I* start to melt down too when it's nonstop tantrums endlessly. I know some parents can handle it, I can't.

I like the wording in your last paragraph. I will try that and see if it helps.


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## BetsyPage (Mar 5, 2004)

I just wanted to throw out a book recommendation that I recently read and found very helpful- along the lines of the spirited child materials but the author addresses the element of POWER, of the dynamics of power. And I love his analogy of taming rather than breaking spirits...

Taming the Spirited Child: Strategies for Parenting Challenging Children Without Breaking Their Spirits by Michael Popkin.

It's super cheap at Amazon right now, btw!


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## BetsyPage (Mar 5, 2004)

Oh, and I see that our youngest kids are the same age. Mine is absolutely obsessed with coloring on walls and herself. She got hold of a Sharpie that *I* left out, and colored on her belly, legs and feet. It was on their for weeks. She knows the rules, but really seems unable to stop herself, so we just watch closely and clean up often. (My 5.5 yo is always drawing, so we often have markers/crayons out during the day...)

You're not alone! I think parenting in general, much less parenting spirited kids, is a lot more challenging than we expect, isn't it? I agree with some earlier thoughts about acceptance. And also keep in mind the immaturity... our kids are oh so immature, they just are. I've seen a huge difference over the past year with my oldest between 4.5 and 5.5, just to encourage you.


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

So many books, my head is spinning!! It seems like everyone has a book recommendation and I barely have time to read my scriptures. I honestly don't even know where to start on the book front and everyone has a different suggestion. I guess go with the ones I hear suggested the most?

Oh, I forgot about the coloring on themselves (and their clothes and their toys and my stuff and anything else they get ahold of that they feel needs decoration







).


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## BetsyPage (Mar 5, 2004)

I would say you could wait on my suggestion because it is probably geared more for older kids, but do put it on your when you get to it list!







It's always good to have a new book to read down the road with a slightly different emphasis.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 

As for other stuff, my general mode is:
1) Make the request once, maybe twice.
2) Go to them and help make it happen, while repeating the request. Tell them what they could do instead next time.
3) If they wig out, validate their upset and empathize, and explain about the situation again briefly.
4) Drop it, and move forward with the day/activity/whatever.
5) Later on in the day, talk about the situation and how it could have been better handled.

I guess basically what I'm trying to do is replace the undesireable behaviors with more desireable ones....not have them behaving to avoid being caught or punished for doing something.

Hope this helps.


I need help, too. DD, almost 4, is very strong willed. Things had seemed better, and now they are worse. My problem is with Step 2--it keeps turning physical. If we need to leave, and I pick her up, she hits me or hurts me and I don't hit her back, but then I start to lose my temper. I can't remove her from the situation without it going bad. Seriously, today I decided I will just go hide n the bathroom next time til I can get it back together, but I DON'T WANT TO HIDE IN MY BATHROOM FROM MY CHILD. I WANT HER TO LISTEN TO ME BEFORE THE 4TH TIME I ASK HER TO DO SOMETHING.

If I am trying to put her shoes on, or help her do that, she kicks me. I don't seem able to get things done without getting into some conflict that leaves me embarrassed and wanting to go in another room and just cry, lately. I don't like yelling like a crazy lady. I don't like feeling out of control. But I do want her to just listen to me when I make reasonable requests. I have never hit her, but I do pick her up and plonk her in her room, or today on my porch while I packed up the car so we could go get my necessary errands done. (And they are necessary-we are leaving for a trip tomorrow, and I had already put off going until 1pm.)

Anyway, OP, you are not alone.

Edited to add--this post reeks of PMS, right? I'm not usually this dramatic.


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

I didn't see that post from the four of us until just now so I just wanted to ask, in response to the following:

3) If they wig out, validate their upset and empathize, and explain about the situation again briefly.
4) Drop it, and move forward with the day/activity/whatever.
5) Later on in the day, talk about the situation and how it could have been better handled.

Do you really think a 3 and 4 year old understand concepts that complex? Do they really get it when you say "I understand you're upset"? Do they really get it when you, later on, talk about how they can better handle the situation?

I honestly am doubtful.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
But staying away from the "You did X bad thing so I'm doing Y to you" and instead approaching it as "You're showing me you can't handle X right now, so let's go Y for a few minutes" works out really well AND keeps your connection.

It's really difficult to put into words sometimes. I hope some of the above makes sense.

This is interesting to me. Because I have been getting into that "bad girl!" trap and I don't like it. I think for me, it's the "let's go xyz" part that is so hard. If I could keep DD in perpetual motion, redirecting her to things she enjoyed, all would be well. But throw in a few real world stresses, do it now, phone calls, stores closing, and it all goes to pot.


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

Redirection has NEVER worked on my kids, never not once. Once they get an idea into their heads, that's it. Like I said, stubborn and strong willed


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
If I am trying to put her shoes on, or help her do that, she kicks me.

While this hurts, and is NOT okay, I just go to my Zen place and get the job done. Then later, talk to them about it. I have wrestled shoes onto a kicking kid and been whacked carrying an upset child out of a store....and haven't been happy about it, but also haven't taken it *personally* - I think that's the key, to not take it personally. I know it's hard, but it becomes easier with time - tantrums aren't an affront to you personally - they're a toddler/preschooler expressing extreme displeasure in a VERY LOUD, VERY EMOTIONAL, SOMETIMES PHYSICALLY SPAZZY way (at least IMO). And I have no problem with my kids expressing their displeasure in a developmentally appropriate way - as I guide them to better ways by addressing it when they are calmer and more open to hearing me. I always want them to feel free to disagree with me and be heard - it might not change the situation, but they have the right to be upset about things if they want.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Talula Fairie* 
I didn't see that post from the four of us until just now so I just wanted to ask, in response to the following:

3) If they wig out, validate their upset and empathize, and explain about the situation again briefly.
4) Drop it, and move forward with the day/activity/whatever.
5) Later on in the day, talk about the situation and how it could have been better handled.

Do you really think a 3 and 4 year old understand concepts that complex? Do they really get it when you say "I understand you're upset"? Do they really get it when you, later on, talk about how they can better handle the situation?

I honestly am doubtful.

It could be different for me because I've just always done it (well, from about 2 and up), but yes, my kids seem to get it. Now, the "later on in the day" can be as soon as everyone has been calm for a few minutes, or it can really be later in the day at bedtime...and it's not confrontational or blaming...it's more like, "wow, that wasn't a great way to handle that. Next time, if you can X to let me know something is wrong, I'll be happy to Y to help you." or something like that. The empathizing and validating in the moment is calm, and brief, not drawn out. If it's something you decide to try, I'd suggest having the "later" conversation closer to the incident at first so they make more of a connection...but I do think that they learn pretty quickly to understand what's going on - IMO *because* there's no punishments going on mucking up their brains about hating being in the corner or resenting little brother for getting them in trouble or whatever, they are more open to hearing about other ways to solve the situations.

Now, I'll be CRYSTAL clear that I lose my ish sometimes, and this is the *ideal* I strive for, the calm, measured response. I will never put forth that I do this successfully every time. But keeping it in mind as my ideal, my default, helps me hit the mark more often than not.


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

Well I'm certainly willing to give it a shot! Sometimes it feels like my kids "get it" but othertimes I swear they just smile and nod as it goes in one ear and out the other


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
While this hurts, and is NOT okay, I just go to my Zen place and get the job done. Then later, talk to them about it. I have wrestled shoes onto a kicking kid and been whacked carrying an upset child out of a store....and haven't been happy about it, but also haven't taken it *personally* - I think that's the key, to not take it personally. I know it's hard, but it becomes easier with time - tantrums aren't an affront to you personally - they're a toddler/preschooler expressing extreme displeasure in a VERY LOUD, VERY EMOTIONAL, SOMETIMES PHYSICALLY SPAZZY way (at least IMO). And I have no problem with my kids expressing their displeasure in a developmentally appropriate way - as I guide them to better ways by addressing it when they are calmer and more open to hearing me. I always want them to feel free to disagree with me and be heard - it might not change the situation, but they have the right to be upset about things if they want.


I think I am going to have to lock myself in the bathroom--seriously, it is almost like she is stronger than I am OR it's that, I am cognizant of the fact that I'm not going to hurt her, but she is still really trying to hurt me. Today, if I had walked around the house for a few minutes and then went back and tried to get her up and out, it probably would have been better, and she might have cooperated at that point.

I am on my second glass of wine (at 6pm EST) and feeling much better about everything.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

my kids get it. age 2 and 3 1/2 and they are both highly sensitive, and spirited... my son is explosive, and has a language delay, sensory problems ... ASD/SPD. they both get the4ofus approach, of course we kind of use her approach from a different overal mindset, but its very similar.


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## Maiasaura (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Talula Fairie* 
Now I have started letting them color again (they have TONS of drawing paper and coloring books to choose from) and guess what? They immediately colored on the walls.

aww, mama, you sound so, so frustrated









have you seen those special sets of crayons/markers and paper that the marker _only_ works on that kind of special paper it comes with? i can't recall the name, but it's made by Crayola.
also, my ds used to just _love_ when i'd put him outside with a bowl of water and a paintbrush, and let him "go to town" on the side of the house. seriously. with _water._









Quote:


Originally Posted by *llp34* 
I would take away ALL of the writing/marking instruments and keep them in a box that locks with a key. They could earn the use of them back by helping to clean the walls, and not until ALL of the walls are cleaned

yes, that. and then they'd only get to use the special paper and special markers. i would end up purging my whole house of writing implements!







:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Talula Fairie* 
So many books, my head is spinning!! It seems like everyone has a book recommendation and I barely have time to read my scriptures.

Oh, I forgot about the coloring on themselves (and their clothes and their toys and my stuff and anything else they get ahold of that they feel needs decoration







).

Talula-- you sound so frustrated and so at the end of your rope that i think honestly that God will forgive you for reading a parenting book instead, for a little while









as for coloring on themselves...well, it's better than walls. and your stuff. for real, check out that special paper. it's really cool


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *madskye* 
This is interesting to me. Because I have been getting into that "bad girl!" trap and I don't like it. I think for me, it's the "let's go xyz" part that is so hard. If I could keep DD in perpetual motion, redirecting her to things she enjoyed, all would be well. But throw in a few real world stresses, do it now, phone calls, stores closing, and it all goes to pot.

Sometimes the XYZ isn't spoken, sometimes it's just "you can't handle X now" and we completely change the scene...like, if they keep trying to get into a cabinet, we leav ehte room for a while to short circuit the cycle...it's the *feel* of it that's different, the presentation of it to the child.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Talula Fairie* 
Well I'm certainly willing to give it a shot! Sometimes it feels like my kids "get it" but othertimes I swear they just smile and nod as it goes in one ear and out the other









Yeah, that happens here too, but it is being absorbed on some level if you do it enough...because I'll be doing it and thinking they're totally not paying attention to me and I need to forget this crap and then WHAM, one of them comes out with something that is almost word for word what I said to them, and it's AWESOME.


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

The color wonder markers dried up really fast ime, and their "art" fades from the paper after a few days. But it's not a bad idea, we could go back to that. Why did I totally forget about that?

I am so frustrated and overwhelmed! I think this is just a hard time in general, and I really want to be the best parent I can for them, but it's just difficult right now.

I am thinking of buying "The Explosive Child" heard lots of good things about that one and I think my therapist recommended it, "The Secret of Parenting" "Becoming The Parent You Want To Be" and possibly "Biblical Parenting" maybe even Dr. Sears' Discipline Book. But honestly, I probably should just stick to one or two otherwise my head will spin and I'll just get confused.

I usually laugh when my kids color on themselves. Occasionally it annoys me, but usually I find it funny. I also found it hilarious when my kids used the cat scratching post as a stool so they could open the freezer. I found both of them sitting on the floor, spoons in hand, digging into a half gallon of ice cream. I about died! I'm not without humor about some things.


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## Maiasaura (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Talula Fairie* 
The color wonder markers dried up really fast ime, and their "art" fades from the paper after a few days. But it's not a bad idea, we could go back to that. Why did I totally forget about that?

because you're overwhelmed?









this may be just me, but...who cares if their art fades? send it to the recycle bin. i'm sure they are just "in the moment" and don't care. just save the very best ones, now and then. or you will be overwhelmed with clutter, too







:

and heck, investing in a bunch of those markers, even if they dry quickly, so? it's better than investing in paint, or walls, or your sanity...


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

...or take pictures of all of them and only keep the best ones....that's what I do with all of DS's school art, so that I don't have ot keep a kajillion pieces of construction paper...but I can still follow his progress.


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## PGTlatte (Mar 7, 2004)

ITA Color Wonder markers and coloring books and special paper works really well. I also buy the "paint with water" books, and have the Aqua Doodle mat (I need an extra Aqua pen though). The mat can also be used with water on paintbrushes. I bought a big bag of plastic handled paintbrushes from Oriental Trading because the paint kept peeling off the wooden paintbrushes. Our boys also like to paint the deck or fence with brushes dipped in water. And use sidewalk chalk on the driveway. Painting with water on construction paper works well too. We also have small chalkboards and a box of colored chalk, and the magnetic doodler things (doodlepro and other brands) all over the house.

As for real writing instruments, I have found that normal leaded pencils are the easiest thing to clean up when they go astray. Now that DS1 wants to practice writing and drawing all the time, and I want him to get more time working on paper, he has free access to all the pencils he wants. Once in a while DS2 starts working in pencil too, and sometimes the pencil goes astray. When that happens, I put his pencil away and give him a baby wipe and he helps clean up his "artwork", which in pencil, only takes a minute. I only get out the crayons and markers when I can directly supervise, or DS2 is napping. Also they paint with tempera paints a lot. Always directly supervised. With the paints, I let them paint until they are done, then put all the painting stuff away immediately, so it rarely goes anywhere it is not supposed to go.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

May I offer a suggestion from experience, having raised a very strong willed child to adulthood? Don't explain, don't reason. Just state what you want/expect in a calm, no nonsense, not open for debate voice, When they respond with "NO", simply repeat your previous statement. No arguing, no debate, no discussion. If they get you into a discussion, you have already lost. The trick is not to raise your voice and not to appear frustrated. If you do, you have lost. And pick your battles. Only engage in one when you are absolutely sure that you will "win".

For instance, my Erica absolutely refused to wear a bib while eating. Since the object was for her to eat, she didn't wear a bib. She ate in her diaper. Wearing he bib was negotiable. But she had to wear a hat outdoors for her own health. That wasn't negotiable. She had 2 choices: wear the hat and go outside, or not wear the hat and stay inside.

On things that you have no decided preference one way or the other, give them the choice. They will feel like they have control when in reality you have controlled what choice they do have. But only give 2 choices both of which you can live with.


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
May I offer a suggestion from experience, having raised a very strong willed child to adulthood? Don't explain, don't reason. Just state what you want/expect in a calm, no nonsense, not open for debate voice, When they respond with "NO", simply repeat your previous statement. No arguing, no debate, no discussion. If they get you into a discussion, you have already lost. The trick is not to raise your voice and not to appear frustrated. If you do, you have lost. And pick your battles. Only engage in one when you are absolutely sure that you will "win".

For instance, my Erica absolutely refused to wear a bib while eating. Since the object was for her to eat, she didn't wear a bib. She ate in her diaper. Wearing he bib was negotiable. But she had to wear a hat outdoors for her own health. That wasn't negotiable. She had 2 choices: wear the hat and go outside, or not wear the hat and stay inside.

On things that you have no decided preference one way or the other, give them the choice. They will feel like they have control when in reality you have controlled what choice they do have. But only give 2 choices both of which you can live with.

Yeah, that DOES NOT work with my kids. DOES NOT WORK. I give them two choices like that and they scream no at both of them, and I can say it until I'm out of breath, but they'll keep on insisting about whatever it is they want. Reasoning works better ime.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

when they don't make a choice you make it for them. in sewchris's excample you could say "you want to go outside, but you don't want to wear a hat. that wasn't an option. when you are ready to go outside with a hat on let me know. until they we will stay in"

and if they have a tantrum, that is when you handle the tantrum with empathy.


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Super Glue Mommy* 
when they don't make a choice you make it for them. in sewchris's excample you could say "you want to go outside, but you don't want to wear a hat. that wasn't an option. when you are ready to go outside with a hat on let me know. until they we will stay in"

and if they have a tantrum, that is when you handle the tantrum with empathy.

That is usually what I do. It's frustrating though. Some days, we have tantrums every time we leave the house, come back home, eat a meal....every. little. thing. I don't know what's up with my kids lately. It seems like all they do is scream, fight, and tantrum


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

i know its hard. really all you can do then is see if there are some things you can let go of temporarily, and address later in life - even if its just 3 months from now. did you always have empathy with tantrums? if at one point you had a different approach, there may be a back log of emotions that need to be let out, then the tantrums will start to decrease in frequency. its hard in the short term! and can often require some faith and make you feel like you are failing somehow! try to focus on your actions, are you handling it a way you think is healthy. how you handle it and how they respond are separate... connected in a way in the long term of course, but what im saying is you can do everything right and they may still tantrum. but you still did everything YOU were supposed to do.


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

Well that right there is my hardest point. Some moms are really good at handling tantrums, but it's not my strong suit to say the least. I was told that when you were raised not being allowed to tantrum like I was, you have trouble accepting that kids tantrum and it's ok and not your fault. It literally sends shivers up my spine, makes me sweat and shake, all my muscles clench...I have an actual physical reaction. My therapist suggested headphones for this time, and honestly, when things are really bad it's the only thing I can do so I don't lose my temper.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

i can understand. i have to walk away from tantrums sometimes and compose myself before I can rejoin them to help them through it (hugs)


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

One of my kids likes contact when she tantrums, the other one needs to be left alone or I'll just make it worse. It took me over two years to figure that out about her! Luckily, she's the older one and doesn't tantrum as much as her sister....although her tantrums are worse when she does blow.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

yep, with my kids it can be either. sometimes they need me, sometimes they need space and just to know im available if they need me.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Talula Fairie* 
I guess by "work", having me say "hitting hurts people, please do not hit your sister" not having them 1. laugh in my face 2. scream at me "no" or 3. keep right on hitting just seconds after saying this. That would be the biggest issue I am dealing with. I have tried separating them, distracting them with activities (coloring, tv sometimes, going outside to the park), explaining why we don't hit, quick time outs. And yet they do it. Daily. MULTIPLE times a day.

How can you gently discipline a child who yells or laughs in your face? I MEAN REALLY.

Here's an example of what to do in that situation: Genlely, phyically pick up the offending child, and remove from the situation. Then turn right around and do it again. And repeat 100 times within 5 minutes. Strong willed child require boundries but at the same time, they will constantly test those boundries. Raising strong willed children does come with rewards but those rewards come much later than with other children. Sometimes years later. They very seldom sub come to peer pressure as teens. In fact, they will do the very opposite of what the pressure is. They will make adults who think for themselves who aren't swayed by advertisers or political ads.


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

I think that part depends on the kid. I have a will of steel and I'm still swayed by advertising and I did things my friends were doing just to be cool, not because they pressured me but because I wanted to fit in and be liked.

And um, I'm already doing that when my kids hit. *sigh*


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## Maiasaura (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
May I offer a suggestion from experience, having raised a very strong willed child to adulthood? Don't explain, don't reason. Just state what you want/expect in a calm, no nonsense, not open for debate voice, When they respond with "NO", simply repeat your previous statement. No arguing, no debate, no discussion. If they get you into a discussion, you have already lost. The trick is not to raise your voice and not to appear frustrated. If you do, you have lost. And pick your battles. Only engage in one when you are absolutely sure that you will "win".

ITA with your approach...after trying many other kinds <insert sigh smiley here>.
so...how old is your dc now? did s/he turn out to be a normal, caring, not sociopathic human being? mine's only 8...i so want there to be hope









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Talula Fairie* 
That is usually what I do. It's frustrating though. Some days, we have tantrums every time we leave the house, come back home, eat a meal....every. little. thing. I don't know what's up with my kids lately. It seems like all they do is scream, fight, and tantrum









yes, it is frustrating! parenting is one long frustration, IME, for the first 5 years. i mean, for me, there were moments...but the frustrating moments were lots and lots more than the rewarding ones. good for me (and ds) that i love him so much!







he was SO hard to parent, as a littler kid. he's been in therapy since he was 3 and boy oh boy have we come a long way since then! <need a WHEW smiley, too> he's a pretty awesome kid, all in all. still have a huge problem with lying and with sass, but other than that, he has compassion, he's a good kid, and i'm not worried about them taking him away in a happy suit anymore









Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
Here's an example of what to do in that situation: Genlely, phyically pick up the offending child, and remove from the situation. Then turn right around and do it again. And repeat 100 times within 5 minutes. Strong willed child require boundries but at the same time, they will constantly test those boundries. Raising strong willed children does come with rewards but those rewards come much later than with other children. Sometimes years later. They very seldom sub come to peer pressure as teens. In fact, they will do the very opposite of what the pressure is. They will make adults who think for themselves who aren't swayed by advertisers or political ads.

you think? really? omg there is hope after all. i SO hope you are right! my ds has two alcoholic parents (one sober, that would be me, and one deceased, but we still have the genes) and i can only hope he doesn't turn out to be addicted. i guess i will cross that bridge when we come to it. he does know about me and his dad and he goes to AA meetings with me so he knows where to turn when/if the time comes.
but the peer pressure-- man i hope you are right about the bucking being an asset!


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

I remember once, I was talking to a Lactation Consultant about the personality of my then newborn baby. I was telling her now even in the NICU, we could tell she had strong opinions about things. I remember a nurse saying to me, "Well it's a good thing you're breastfeeding becuase when this one wants to eat, she really lets you know!" Apparently she'd been keeping them all busy during the five minutes it took me to walk down the hall. Anyway, my LC said, "Good! The world needs more strong women." That comment always amused me. I know when they get older it will be a big bonus to them...it just makes parenting in the meantime...uh, challenging.


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Talula Fairie* 
it just makes parenting in the meantime...uh, challenging.

That's one word for it...







I can come up with some pretty colorful alternatives.


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
That's one word for it...







I can come up with some pretty colorful alternatives.









me too


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## beachcomber (May 11, 2005)

Quote:

Don't explain, don't reason. Just state what you want/expect in a calm, no nonsense, not open for debate voice, When they respond with "NO", simply repeat your previous statement. No arguing, no debate, no discussion. If they get you into a discussion, you have already lost. The trick is not to raise your voice and not to appear frustrated. If you do, you have lost. And pick your battles. Only engage in one when you are absolutely sure that you will "win".
Yes. This.

Honestly, I used to get the screaming of "NO!!!" in response, too. But we have a rule in our house that centres on the fact that we all respect each other. If my strong willed daughter screams at me or anyone else, she has to face a consequence. It comes in a variety of forms but usually the consequence is immeidate removal to a quiet room where we sit together and I say, calmly, "We do not scream at each other." That is ALL I say. Yes, at first, she'd jump up and holler. Then I'd calmly sit her down again and repeat, "We do not scream at each other." The first few days I did this, it took me about an hour each time of sitting her down, repeating the phrase, etc., to get her to understand my point. It was HARD at first but that's the way it is with young kids and strong-willed kids. They know that by screaming they can get their way. They've figured this out. Now we as parents have to educate them otherwise.

I've tried all kinds of things on my daughter including reasoning and time outs. Those didn't work at all. This seems to have done it, though. But the real trick is keeping your temper and not falling into the trap of reacting to your child's anger/frustration.

Another tactic I've incorporated that has helped is talking about feelings and emotions when my daughter is NOT in the middle of a fit of temper. Of course I can't reason with her when she's mad. She's MAD! But I can talk to her about mad and what it feels like when she's calm. I can point out characters in books and on her TV shows when they get mad and how they deal with it. I can give her tools to help her handle her anger and frustration. We sing songs about it together. And I encourage her to vent her anger and frustration in ways that are not destructive or self-destructive. Like stomping or jumping up and down or hitting her "Angry Pillow" or using her stuffies to role play it. She can do all these things. And it's often easier for her than me saying to her, "Can you tell me why you're _____?" or "Can you tell me what's going on?" She, at just over 3, has trouble articulating what has made her mad/frustrated when she's starting to lose her temper over something. What I say instead is something like, "It looks like you're getting mad/frustrated. Do you want to stomp a bit? Do you want to hit your pillow?" and she can deal with that.

I've learned recently that the mistakes I've made with her include not being consistent enough with her. We do have some rules in our house and set times when things happen (like meal times, nap times, bedtime, tooth brushing, etc.). I used to let her lead too much in some scenarios and that made it doubly hard to keep to the boundaries. Then I realized (and did some reading) that as a family we operate like a team and one member of our team was getting way too much power. That had to change for the health of both her and of the family. It's been a struggle, don't get me wrong. She really doesn't like limits and boundaries and doesn't like bedtime. But we do it at the same time each day, explain the process - I even drew up a picture chart of her jammies, her tooth brush, a few books and then her bed and this helped A TON because she could see and understand what was coming.

And, really, I'm not perfect. I lose my temper. I get tired. I get mad sometimes too. And when I do, I put my hand up in the "stop" gesture and say, "Mommy is feeling mad right now and I need to calm down. Then I count out loud to ten and take three loud and deep breaths. (I've taught her to take a few deep breaths when she starts feeling the angries inside, by the way. It seems to help a bit too). Then I say, "Ok. Now we can talk about this." Sometimes I have to apologize to her for losing my temper. I think it's okay to do that with our children. They see us as role models. If we act in ways we tell them not to, we're contradicting ourselves. They need to see that we are not perfect and that we have to obey our own rules.

Just my thoughts on this. I hope it helps you. Please understand that I really do sympathize with how overwhelmed and frustrated you are. You'll get through this, Mama. You will!


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## ~PurityLake~ (Jul 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beachcomber* 
Yes. This.

Honestly, I used to get the screaming of "NO!!!" in response, too. But we have a rule in our house that centres on the fact that we all respect each other. If my strong willed daughter screams at me or anyone else, she has to face a consequence. It comes in a variety of forms but usually the consequence is immeidate removal to a quiet room where we sit together and I say, calmly, "We do not scream at each other." That is ALL I say. Yes, at first, she'd jump up and holler. Then I'd calmly sit her down again and repeat, "We do not scream at each other." The first few days I did this, it took me about an hour each time of sitting her down, repeating the phrase, etc., to get her to understand my point. It was HARD at first but that's the way it is with young kids and strong-willed kids. They know that by screaming they can get their way. They've figured this out. Now we as parents have to educate them otherwise.

I've tried all kinds of things on my daughter including reasoning and time outs. Those didn't work at all. This seems to have done it, though. But the real trick is keeping your temper and not falling into the trap of reacting to your child's anger/frustration.

Another tactic I've incorporated that has helped is talking about feelings and emotions when my daughter is NOT in the middle of a fit of temper. Of course I can't reason with her when she's mad. She's MAD! But I can talk to her about mad and what it feels like when she's calm. I can point out characters in books and on her TV shows when they get mad and how they deal with it. I can give her tools to help her handle her anger and frustration. We sing songs about it together. And I encourage her to vent her anger and frustration in ways that are not destructive or self-destructive. Like stomping or jumping up and down or hitting her "Angry Pillow" or using her stuffies to role play it. She can do all these things. And it's often easier for her than me saying to her, "Can you tell me why you're _____?" or "Can you tell me what's going on?" She, at just over 3, has trouble articulating what has made her mad/frustrated when she's starting to lose her temper over something. What I say instead is something like, "It looks like you're getting mad/frustrated. Do you want to stomp a bit? Do you want to hit your pillow?" and she can deal with that.

I've learned recently that the mistakes I've made with her include not being consistent enough with her. We do have some rules in our house and set times when things happen (like meal times, nap times, bedtime, tooth brushing, etc.). I used to let her lead too much in some scenarios and that made it doubly hard to keep to the boundaries. Then I realized (and did some reading) that as a family we operate like a team and one member of our team was getting way too much power. That had to change for the health of both her and of the family. It's been a struggle, don't get me wrong. She really doesn't like limits and boundaries and doesn't like bedtime. But we do it at the same time each day, explain the process - I even drew up a picture chart of her jammies, her tooth brush, a few books and then her bed and this helped A TON because she could see and understand what was coming.

And, really, I'm not perfect. I lose my temper. I get tired. I get mad sometimes too. And when I do, I put my hand up in the "stop" gesture and say, "Mommy is feeling mad right now and I need to calm down. Then I count out loud to ten and take three loud and deep breaths. (I've taught her to take a few deep breaths when she starts feeling the angries inside, by the way. It seems to help a bit too). Then I say, "Ok. Now we can talk about this." Sometimes I have to apologize to her for losing my temper. I think it's okay to do that with our children. They see us as role models. If we act in ways we tell them not to, we're contradicting ourselves. They need to see that we are not perfect and that we have to obey our own rules.

Just my thoughts on this. I hope it helps you. Please understand that I really do sympathize with how overwhelmed and frustrated you are. You'll get through this, Mama. You will!


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## pinksprklybarefoot (Jan 18, 2007)

Not a GD technique, but I've had a lot of luck getting all sorts of coloring off of walls and furniture with the Mr. Clean Magic Eraser. I have a two yo that will find that *one* Sharpie that I've left on the table that he can *just* reach. I can't attest to it being a natural cleaner, but I am in a rental, so the marks have to be cleaned off to save our security deposit.

I will say, the most recent time that my stepdaughter colored on her bed, I made her sand it off (the wood on the bed is unfinished). It took a while and was so boring that she hasn't colored on anything since. Natural consequences, right?

I've had the best results every time I have come up with a good natural consequence like that. She seems to remember what happened and think before she does it again.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Talula Fairie* 
Yeah, that DOES NOT work with my kids. DOES NOT WORK. I give them two choices like that and they scream no at both of them, and I can say it until I'm out of breath, but they'll keep on insisting about whatever it is they want. Reasoning works better ime.

I didn't mean to sound like it worked every time with Erica. She'd spend more days standing rigid at the front door because she wanted to go outside without a hat. It was fun in a perverse kind of way to watch her try to work it out so she got what she wanted. She also would spend days just going up and down the stairs. She would be sent upstairs because of a tantrum. She would come down and announce that she was all done crying. Now can she have [whatever I said no to]. The answer would still be no and so back upstairs she would go. Man that girl was stuborn. She had some great temper tantrums. But I guess that I'm just one of those parents who don't take tantrums personally. They aren't about me but about the child. But I only had to deal with one strong willed child. And she did make life interesting.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Talula Fairie* 
Well that right there is my hardest point. Some moms are really good at handling tantrums, but it's not my strong suit to say the least. I was told that when you were raised not being allowed to tantrum like I was, you have trouble accepting that kids tantrum and it's ok and not your fault. It literally sends shivers up my spine, makes me sweat and shake, all my muscles clench...I have an actual physical reaction. My therapist suggested headphones for this time, and honestly, when things are really bad it's the only thing I can do so I don't lose my temper.

Yep. There were times when the only thing that kept Erica alive (I mean literally) was shuting myself in the bathroom.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maiasaura* 
ITA with your approach...after trying many other kinds <insert sigh smiley here>.
so...how old is your dc now? did s/he turn out to be a normal, caring, not sociopathic human being? mine's only 8...i so want there to be hope :

you think? really? omg there is hope after all. i SO hope you are right! my ds has two alcoholic parents (one sober, that would be me, and one deceased, but we still have the genes) and i can only hope he doesn't turn out to be addicted. i guess i will cross that bridge when we come to it. he does know about me and his dad and he goes to AA meetings with me so he knows where to turn when/if the time comes.
but the peer pressure-- man i hope you are right about the bucking being an asset!

Erica is now 28, going on 29 with a 4 mo of her own. All the things that she hated me for growing up, she has all taken back. We have a great relationship now. But, to be honest, while I loved her from the minute she was born, I didn't like her for her first 5 years. She wasn't an easy child to like. When parenting a strong willed child, you must look very long term (years) for any kind of reward or results that you are doing it right. They don't do anything over night.

I think what was worse for me was that Joy was the perfect child that every parent fantasizes over. She nursed every 3 hours, was content in every situation, slept whenever she was tired even in the middle of all the Christmas wrappings. When told no and redirected, that was ok with her. I could wake her from a nap and just up and run errands if I felt like it. Then along came Erica who when told the sky was blue would look you right in the eye and with great conviction tell you "No, the sky is orange." Who only slept in her own bed and was not to be wakened under any circumstances. Errands had to be run not only just when she was awake but in the exact same order that I said them.


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
Erica is now 28, going on 29 with a 4 mo of her own. All the things that she hated me for growing up, she has all taken back. We have a great relationship now. But, to be honest, while I loved her from the minute she was born, I didn't like her for her first 5 years. She wasn't an easy child to like. When parenting a strong willed child, you must look very long term (years) for any kind of reward or results that you are doing it right. They don't do anything over night.

I think what was worse for me was that Joy was the perfect child that every parent fantasizes over. She nursed every 3 hours, was content in every situation, slept whenever she was tired even in the middle of all the Christmas wrappings. When told no and redirected, that was ok with her. I could wake her from a nap and just up and run errands if I felt like it. Then along came Erica who when told the sky was blue would look you right in the eye and with great conviction tell you "No, the sky is orange." Who only slept in her own bed and was not to be wakened under any circumstances. Errands had to be run not only just when she was awake but in the exact same order that I said them.

That is like a dead ringer for how my kids are.

I'm relieved to hear I am not the only person that, while they love their kids dearly, don't really LIKE them sometimes.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beachcomber* 
Yes. This.

Honestly, I used to get the screaming of "NO!!!" in response, too. But we have a rule in our house that centres on the fact that we all respect each other. If my strong willed daughter screams at me or anyone else, she has to face a consequence. It comes in a variety of forms but usually the consequence is immeidate removal to a quiet room where we sit together and I say, calmly, "We do not scream at each other." That is ALL I say. Yes, at first, she'd jump up and holler. Then I'd calmly sit her down again and repeat, "We do not scream at each other." The first few days I did this, it took me about an hour each time of sitting her down, repeating the phrase, etc., to get her to understand my point. It was HARD at first but that's the way it is with young kids and strong-willed kids. They know that by screaming they can get their way. They've figured this out. Now we as parents have to educate them otherwise.

I've tried all kinds of things on my daughter including reasoning and time outs. Those didn't work at all. This seems to have done it, though. But the real trick is keeping your temper and not falling into the trap of reacting to your child's anger/frustration.

Another tactic I've incorporated that has helped is talking about feelings and emotions when my daughter is NOT in the middle of a fit of temper. Of course I can't reason with her when she's mad. She's MAD! But I can talk to her about mad and what it feels like when she's calm. I can point out characters in books and on her TV shows when they get mad and how they deal with it. I can give her tools to help her handle her anger and frustration. We sing songs about it together. And I encourage her to vent her anger and frustration in ways that are not destructive or self-destructive. Like stomping or jumping up and down or hitting her "Angry Pillow" or using her stuffies to role play it. She can do all these things. And it's often easier for her than me saying to her, "Can you tell me why you're _____?" or "Can you tell me what's going on?" She, at just over 3, has trouble articulating what has made her mad/frustrated when she's starting to lose her temper over something. What I say instead is something like, "It looks like you're getting mad/frustrated. Do you want to stomp a bit? Do you want to hit your pillow?" and she can deal with that.

I've learned recently that the mistakes I've made with her include not being consistent enough with her. We do have some rules in our house and set times when things happen (like meal times, nap times, bedtime, tooth brushing, etc.). I used to let her lead too much in some scenarios and that made it doubly hard to keep to the boundaries. Then I realized (and did some reading) that as a family we operate like a team and one member of our team was getting way too much power. That had to change for the health of both her and of the family. It's been a struggle, don't get me wrong. She really doesn't like limits and boundaries and doesn't like bedtime. But we do it at the same time each day, explain the process - I even drew up a picture chart of her jammies, her tooth brush, a few books and then her bed and this helped A TON because she could see and understand what was coming.

And, really, I'm not perfect. I lose my temper. I get tired. I get mad sometimes too. And when I do, I put my hand up in the "stop" gesture and say, "Mommy is feeling mad right now and I need to calm down. Then I count out loud to ten and take three loud and deep breaths. (I've taught her to take a few deep breaths when she starts feeling the angries inside, by the way. It seems to help a bit too). Then I say, "Ok. Now we can talk about this." Sometimes I have to apologize to her for losing my temper. I think it's okay to do that with our children. They see us as role models. If we act in ways we tell them not to, we're contradicting ourselves. They need to see that we are not perfect and that we have to obey our own rules.

Just my thoughts on this. I hope it helps you. Please understand that I really do sympathize with how overwhelmed and frustrated you are. You'll get through this, Mama. You will!

You just posted every thing I've been trying to say.


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## Super Glue Mommy (Jan 4, 2009)

i dont like my kids sometimes either, even though I love them. you are NOT alone in that. and I too have to lock myself in the bathroom sometimes. now my kids do this and come out and tell me they are all better now haha


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beachcomber* 
Yes. This.

Honestly, I used to get the screaming of "NO!!!" in response, too. But we have a rule in our house that centres on the fact that we all respect each other. If my strong willed daughter screams at me or anyone else, she has to face a consequence. It comes in a variety of forms but usually the consequence is immeidate removal to a quiet room where we sit together and I say, calmly, "We do not scream at each other." That is ALL I say. Yes, at first, she'd jump up and holler. Then I'd calmly sit her down again and repeat, "We do not scream at each other." The first few days I did this, it took me about an hour each time of sitting her down, repeating the phrase, etc., to get her to understand my point. It was HARD at first but that's the way it is with young kids and strong-willed kids. They know that by screaming they can get their way. They've figured this out. Now we as parents have to educate them otherwise.

I've tried all kinds of things on my daughter including reasoning and time outs. Those didn't work at all. This seems to have done it, though. But the real trick is keeping your temper and not falling into the trap of reacting to your child's anger/frustration.

Another tactic I've incorporated that has helped is talking about feelings and emotions when my daughter is NOT in the middle of a fit of temper. Of course I can't reason with her when she's mad. She's MAD! But I can talk to her about mad and what it feels like when she's calm. I can point out characters in books and on her TV shows when they get mad and how they deal with it. I can give her tools to help her handle her anger and frustration. We sing songs about it together. And I encourage her to vent her anger and frustration in ways that are not destructive or self-destructive. Like stomping or jumping up and down or hitting her "Angry Pillow" or using her stuffies to role play it. She can do all these things. And it's often easier for her than me saying to her, "Can you tell me why you're _____?" or "Can you tell me what's going on?" She, at just over 3, has trouble articulating what has made her mad/frustrated when she's starting to lose her temper over something. What I say instead is something like, "It looks like you're getting mad/frustrated. Do you want to stomp a bit? Do you want to hit your pillow?" and she can deal with that.

I've learned recently that the mistakes I've made with her include not being consistent enough with her. We do have some rules in our house and set times when things happen (like meal times, nap times, bedtime, tooth brushing, etc.). I used to let her lead too much in some scenarios and that made it doubly hard to keep to the boundaries. Then I realized (and did some reading) that as a family we operate like a team and one member of our team was getting way too much power. That had to change for the health of both her and of the family. It's been a struggle, don't get me wrong. She really doesn't like limits and boundaries and doesn't like bedtime. But we do it at the same time each day, explain the process - I even drew up a picture chart of her jammies, her tooth brush, a few books and then her bed and this helped A TON because she could see and understand what was coming.

And, really, I'm not perfect. I lose my temper. I get tired. I get mad sometimes too. And when I do, I put my hand up in the "stop" gesture and say, "Mommy is feeling mad right now and I need to calm down. Then I count out loud to ten and take three loud and deep breaths. (I've taught her to take a few deep breaths when she starts feeling the angries inside, by the way. It seems to help a bit too). Then I say, "Ok. Now we can talk about this." Sometimes I have to apologize to her for losing my temper. I think it's okay to do that with our children. They see us as role models. If we act in ways we tell them not to, we're contradicting ourselves. They need to see that we are not perfect and that we have to obey our own rules.

Just my thoughts on this. I hope it helps you. Please understand that I really do sympathize with how overwhelmed and frustrated you are. You'll get through this, Mama. You will!

I honestly, honestly do not know if I am capable of that level of patience and calm. I'm certainly trying, but My temper is on a hairtrigger and my kids really know how to push my buttons. I'm trying lots and lots of therapy, meds, everything I can think of. I am getting better of course but it doesn't happen out of the blue.

I do always apologize for losing my temper. But it doesn't take away the guilt.


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## Maiasaura (Aug 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *The4OfUs* 
That's one word for it...







I can come up with some pretty colorful alternatives.









oh, no teasing, no fair...let's hear them!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *pinksprklybarefoot* 
I've had the best results every time I have come up with a good natural consequence like that. She seems to remember what happened and think before she does it again.

that's a _logical_ consequence...not to get picky or anything









Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
Erica is now 28, going on 29 with a 4 mo of her own. All the things that she hated me for growing up, she has all taken back. We have a great relationship now. But, to be honest, while I loved her from the minute she was born, I didn't like her for her first 5 years. She wasn't an easy child to like. When parenting a strong willed child, you must look very long term (years) for any kind of reward or results that you are doing it right. They don't do anything over night.

I think what was worse for me was that Joy was the perfect child that every parent fantasizes over. She nursed every 3 hours, was content in every situation, slept whenever she was tired even in the middle of all the Christmas wrappings. When told no and redirected, that was ok with her. I could wake her from a nap and just up and run errands if I felt like it. Then along came Erica who when told the sky was blue would look you right in the eye and with great conviction tell you "No, the sky is orange." Who only slept in her own bed and was not to be wakened under any circumstances. Errands had to be run not only just when she was awake but in the exact same order that I said them.

was Joy the 2nd child? i met a mama once who i got along with famously, because her 1st child was slightly older than mine and so, so high-need/spirited. we commiserated








but she told me that she was sure God gave her the 2nd child (who was typical and easy) to show her that it wasn't her fault about the 1st one's behavior. until then she carried a lot of guilt over what was she doing wrong and etc. that has stuck with me over the years. i never did have a 2nd child, but it eased my mind, too.
mine will also look at you with great conviction and tell me the sky is orange. only in my house it's i tell him to make his bed, which is a rumpled mess with the covers half on the floor, and he will tell me it is made. then get really, really angry and pitch a tantrum when i tell him he's full of baloney and make the bed







:


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maiasaura* 
was Joy the 2nd child? i met a mama once who i got along with famously, because her 1st child was slightly older than mine and so, so high-need/spirited. we commiserated








but she told me that she was sure God gave her the 2nd child (who was typical and easy) to show her that it wasn't her fault about the 1st one's behavior. until then she carried a lot of guilt over what was she doing wrong and etc. that has stuck with me over the years. i never did have a 2nd child, but it eased my mind, too.
mine will also look at you with great conviction and tell me the sky is orange. only in my house it's i tell him to make his bed, which is a rumpled mess with the covers half on the floor, and he will tell me it is made. then get really, really angry and pitch a tantrum when i tell him he's full of baloney and make the bed







:

No such luck. Joy was my first. I had no clue when Erica was born. I was still basking in the mistaken delusion that raising babies was as piece of cake. Then Erica was born. There's a reason why there is a 4 year gap between Erica and Angela.


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

Does anyone have any thoughts or book recommendations anger issues, esp geared towards abuse survivors? I've been having a really hard time with my temper lately. TIA


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## Maiasaura (Aug 12, 2002)

i don't have any, tallulah, and i am sure the mamas on here will chime in with some good advice.
i just wanted to commend you for being so brave and reaching out for help. that's a difficult thing to do, and is for sure the first step towards healing.

good for you, mama


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## thehappyhippo (Jan 1, 2007)

I haven't read through the whole thread. So excuse me if I am redundant. First, before my suggestions I just want to commiserate. I was going to start my own thread. My daughter is 4 and I have a 7 month old VERY HIGH NEEDS boy. Lately every situation in our household is arguing. Arguing over the stupidest things. There were some tough moments at age 3 but nothing like what I've experienced over the last few weeks/months. What I have realized for me is that I am exhausted. My baby has sucked all my energy away (obviously, it's not his fault) and I have used up so much energy trying to *fix* his issues and I'm just left drained. My poor daughter has suffered and it wasn't until today until I was ready to remove the blame from her and accept that her attitude is a very direct result of my disconnection from her. Which makes me feel guilty but I just have to accept that I'm doing the best I can and now I just need to move on and try to repair the disconnect.

Anyway, I'd love suggestions on breaking the cycle we're all ready in. We use time-outs wayyyyyyy too much and I'd love to get to no time-outs. I'll look into the mentioned books but is there a book that is good at helping to repair the punitive cycles once they've all ready been established? Luckily my daughter is only 4 but I know I've set up some really unhealthy habits between how her and I are interacting (yelling battles).

Ok, here is my suggestion for everyone. Get the kids outside more. Crappy weather and all. I am working on taking myself up on this advice but really, everyones kids need this. There are hardly any kids that get enough of this. And not just in the back yard but outside in places to roam, the woods, the creek, etc. I'm almost finished with a really excellent book called "Last Child in the Woods". I think it is one of the best books I have ever read. Honestly. And I have read A LOT of books on child development/parenting. Just not lately because of the baby.


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## thehappyhippo (Jan 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Talula Fairie* 
Does anyone have any thoughts or book recommendations anger issues, esp geared towards abuse survivors? I've been having a really hard time with my temper lately. TIA

I'm an abuse survivor too. It's hard huh? I know this will not be the same for everyone but honestly I think the key is to acknowlege, take accountabilty and make a plan.

Only we know what we went through. Only we know our greatest weaknesses. I think we are the experts on ourselves. I am finding for myself that I make the most headway and see the most growth in myself when I take the initiative to start dealing with whatever problem I'm having in a direct an upfront and accountable matter. I tell a few of my close friends what problem I'm having and what I'm going to do about it and I ask them to help keep me accountable if they see me straying from my goals.

You may find better help with some one-on-one therapy or maybe there is a book with a magic recipe. I dunno. But for me I think if you are on this site and able to articulate that you have an abusive past and that it's effecting your parenting then you'll be able to be observant enough to find your weak areas.

In general I've found books on healthy boundaries and relaxation techniques helpful.

For me my biggest challenge is dealing with impulse when I'm angry. When the blood boiling starts. If I don't get to blood boiling stage I am a pretty awesome parent, if I do say so myself. But once a button gets pushed it's like I become a completely different, awful parent. The parent I want to sob over and bang on the head. It's very embarrassing and I just want to kick myself sometimes. But I'm learning and growing and I've learned to be honest and apologize and I think that's all I can do. Keep trying, keep growing and admit mistakes and apologize.

Anyway, what I have gone through is my experience and so I hope nothing I've said is offensive to you. If so, please disregard and know that I'm certainly no expert.


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

"For me my biggest challenge is dealing with impulse when I'm angry. When the blood boiling starts. If I don't get to blood boiling stage I am a pretty awesome parent, if I do say so myself. But once a button gets pushed it's like I become a completely different, awful parent. The parent I want to sob over and bang on the head. It's very embarrassing and I just want to kick myself sometimes."

Yes, this is my problem. I also lose my temper faster than I can think most of the time, it's like I go from 0 to 100 in a split second. So I don't always have time to remove myself, calm down, and come back.

I'm already in one on one therapy.

As for getting the kids out more, this doesn't and never has worked for me. The amount of effort it takes to get my kids up and going is too much to deal with, the tantrums, the screaming, ect. Then they scream some more when it's time to come home. It's gotten so I've just given up on a lot of outings lately. Not worth it.


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## labdogs42 (Jan 21, 2009)

My DS is super strong willed and sensitive, too. I try to give him choices. Here's a little story to make you maybe feel a little less alone -- I took DS to the Dollar Store and he was looking at all kinds of things he wanted in the toy aisle. I told him he could pick three things (I was feeling generous that day







). He threw an all out fit in the middle of the store because he wanted five things. They were almost identical items and I just decided I wasn't going to cave, so I gave him the choice, "you can get three things or none." Well, stubborn DS chose none! I even asked him if he was sure and then he repeated that he wanted NONE and we marched out of the store hand-in-hand with him wailing at the top of his lungs, "I'm getting NOTHING!" It was awful. So, remember that sometimes when you offer options, you can offer the null option. If they choose it, they live with it. I felt SO bad that day, but I had to let him live with his decision. Giving your kids choices can work, you just have to find creative ways to do it!

As for the nap thing, we started having "quiet time" daily when DS didn't want to nap as much. I would set the timer for an hour and he could watch tv or play quietly, but I wouldn't play with him. I didn't make him play in his room, but that might be something you'd want to consider. Give your kids a choice of taking a nap or having quiet time. Explain what quiet time entails (maybe staying in their room and entertaining themselves quietly for an hour, possibly falling asleep) and let them choose. Either way, you win!


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *labdogs42* 
My DS is super strong willed and sensitive, too. I try to give him choices. Here's a little story to make you maybe feel a little less alone -- I took DS to the Dollar Store and he was looking at all kinds of things he wanted in the toy aisle. I told him he could pick three things (I was feeling generous that day







). He threw an all out fit in the middle of the store because he wanted five things. They were almost identical items and I just decided I wasn't going to cave, so I gave him the choice, "you can get three things or none." Well, stubborn DS chose none! I even asked him if he was sure and then he repeated that he wanted NONE and we marched out of the store hand-in-hand with him wailing at the top of his lungs, "I'm getting NOTHING!" It was awful. So, remember that sometimes when you offer options, you can offer the null option. If they choose it, they live with it. I felt SO bad that day, but I had to let him live with his decision. Giving your kids choices can work, you just have to find creative ways to do it!

As for the nap thing, we started having "quiet time" daily when DS didn't want to nap as much. I would set the timer for an hour and he could watch tv or play quietly, but I wouldn't play with him. I didn't make him play in his room, but that might be something you'd want to consider. Give your kids a choice of taking a nap or having quiet time. Explain what quiet time entails (maybe staying in their room and entertaining themselves quietly for an hour, possibly falling asleep) and let them choose. Either way, you win!

Um...yeah. My kids would have FLIPPED OUT in that situation, and screamed over me not getting them the five items. None would not have been an option they'd have taken. I'd have to deal with the hour long tantrum that occured after that.

And the second one? Quiet time? LOL! That would never happen here, not in a million years for a million different bribes. I've tried. Believe me, I have tried.

I sometimes wonder if my kids really are worse than other kids (they really seem to be from what I've heard from other parents and based on the suggestions I get for what to do), or if I am just not the greatest person at dealing with their antics.

They want what they want when they want it. There is no reasoning, there is no talking about it, there is no compromise. I just have to say no when the answer is no and deal with the resulting tantrum. Every day. Several times a day. *big sigh*


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## beachcomber (May 11, 2005)

Talulah, it seems to me like you're going through an awful lot yourself. If you're recovering from abuse that's a mountain of stuff to deal with and it sure does explain your hair-trigger temper. It's hard to take disrespect or just plain toddlerness when you're at your limits already.

I've been through a lot of therapy for verbal abuse and manipulation in my childhood and while I'm glad I was fortunate enough to get it all worked out before I had kids, there are things my daughter does that just SET ME OFF. Disrespect is a huge HUGE trigger for me. Especially when I'm tired. Which, as a full-time WOHM who is nearing 7 mos pregnant, is pretty near all the time.

This may sound odd but how are your hormone levels? Do you struggle with PMS a lot? Are you on The Pill, etc? Are you getting enough iron in your diet? All this stuff can work against your having a good psychological balance.

But I think the most important thing you need to do right now is to cut yourself some slack. You're trying. You're asking for help, getting therapy, looking for other perspectives and advice. You're doing all the right things by your kids. Be proud of that. Don't expect perfection in yourself or in your kids and don't beat yourself up for being human. You'll get through this.


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## thehappyhippo (Jan 1, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Talula Fairie* 
Um...yeah. My kids would have FLIPPED OUT in that situation, and screamed over me not getting them the five items. None would not have been an option they'd have taken. I'd have to deal with the hour long tantrum that occured after that.

And the second one? Quiet time? LOL! That would never happen here, not in a million years for a million different bribes. I've tried. Believe me, I have tried.

I sometimes wonder if my kids really are worse than other kids (they really seem to be from what I've heard from other parents and based on the suggestions I get for what to do), or if I am just not the greatest person at dealing with their antics.

They want what they want when they want it. There is no reasoning, there is no talking about it, there is no compromise. I just have to say no when the answer is no and deal with the resulting tantrum. Every day. Several times a day. *big sigh*

I'm so sorry. Some days it is just overwhelming.

Just wanted to ask though, if your family consumes these things you should consider removing all artificial food dye, flavors, preservatives and such from your kiddos diets. We saw an amazing change in our daughters behavior by modifying what she was eating when she was a toddler. Some kids are also sensitive to something called salicylates which are in natural things like fruit.

Just thought I'd throw that out there in case...


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *beachcomber* 
This may sound odd but how are your hormone levels? Do you struggle with PMS a lot? Are you on The Pill, etc? Are you getting enough iron in your diet? All this stuff can work against your having a good psychological balance.


I'm five months pregnant so I'm sure my hormone levels are off the charts.

There's plenty of iron in my diet.

I do think I have PMDD, but that's not an issue at the moment, obviously. I was not on the pill.


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## labdogs42 (Jan 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Talula Fairie* 
Um...yeah. My kids would have FLIPPED OUT in that situation, and screamed over me not getting them the five items. None would not have been an option they'd have taken. I'd have to deal with the hour long tantrum that occured after that.


That's pretty much what happened to me. He cried and wailed about it for about and hour, but he did know that he had made the choice. Sure the results were kind of the same -- 1 hour of screaming, but I think my son learned something from it. I still think offering your kids choices could help.


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *labdogs42* 
That's pretty much what happened to me. He cried and wailed about it for about and hour, but he did know that he had made the choice. Sure the results were kind of the same -- 1 hour of screaming, but I think my son learned something from it. I still think offering your kids choices could help.

I still offer. They just don't like my choices


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Talula Fairie* 
I still offer. They just don't like my choices









Of course not. They're strong willed children. And they will still protest every time even long after they are secretly happy that you are setting boundries and giving clear, defined, limited choices. That's the way these children are wired. And you won't see results any time soon. It could take months, even a year before you look back and wonder when things got easier. And then they will find something else to make your life harder.


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
Of course not. They're strong willed children. And they will still protest every time even long after they are secretly happy that you are setting boundries and giving clear, defined, limited choices. That's the way these children are wired. And you won't see results any time soon. It could take months, even a year before you look back and wonder when things got easier. And then they will find something else to make your life harder.

This is somehow reassuring to me. Like maybe all the work I am doing in working so hard on GD IS doing something (even though I feel like it's not most of the time).


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## labdogs42 (Jan 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
Of course not. They're strong willed children. And they will still protest every time even long after they are secretly happy that you are setting boundries and giving clear, defined, limited choices. That's the way these children are wired. And you won't see results any time soon. It could take months, even a year before you look back and wonder when things got easier. And then they will find something else to make your life harder.


This is totally what I would have said if I could think that coherently! That's why I told the Dollar Store story. That wasn't the only time that happened, it just was the most horrible one! All of a sudden, DS is a lot better about shopping. It seems like it took forever, but he's only 4, so I guess it wasn't really that long! Hang in there and eventually things will get better!


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## skueppers (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Talula Fairie* 
This is somehow reassuring to me. Like maybe all the work I am doing in working so hard on GD IS doing something (even though I feel like it's not most of the time).

I've never found that much of anything had a short-term effect on my kids. My son went through a phase of hair pulling, biting, and hitting that was over a year long, and I eventually realized that there was absolutely nothing I could do to get him to stop his behavior. All I could do was to try to keep him from hurting people as much as possible and try to teach him alternative techniques for meeting his own needs so that eventually, he might be able to implement them.

For what it's worth, I'm entirely confident that, short of terrorizing him by beating him within an inch of his life, there do not exist discipline techniques that would actually have gotten him to stop hurting people in the short term. It seems to me that GD techniques have the advantage in this type of situation that they do not damage the relationship between parent and child, and do not escalate -- you don't wind up punishing the child more and more for behavior that they really just need to grow out of.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skueppers* 
I've never found that much of anything had a short-term effect on my kids. My son went through a phase of hair pulling, biting, and hitting that was over a year long, and I eventually realized that there was absolutely nothing I could do to get him to stop his behavior. All I could do was to try to keep him from hurting people as much as possible and try to teach him alternative techniques for meeting his own needs so that eventually, he might be able to implement them.

For what it's worth, I'm entirely confident that, short of terrorizing him by beating him within an inch of his life, there do not exist discipline techniques that would actually have gotten him to stop hurting people in the short term. It seems to me that GD techniques have the advantage in this type of situation that they do not damage the relationship between parent and child, and do not escalate -- you don't wind up punishing the child more and more for behavior that they really just need to grow out of.

My goal with Erica was to teach her self-control so that eventually she would be able to control her own actions. I started with giving her the illusion of self-control by limiting her choices. Also time outs did work with Erica. By removing her from the out of control situation, she was able to feel in control and then eventually gain control of her own actions and feelings. And usually when she did lose control, the underlying cause was tiredness. So time out accomplished 2 things: it removed her from the situation and gave her an opportunity of a nap without my telling her she needed a nap. If I had done that, she would not have taken the nap she needed.


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## doublyblessed (Jun 4, 2008)

sorry i don't have time to read all of the pages here in this thread...but i wanted to join the thread. i need help. i'm floundering more often than not the past 16 mos. since my ds was born...















its like 2 steps forward, 1 step backward for me...i'm hating myself and live w/ such remorse and sorrow. yet i love my true essence...i'm very loving and nurturing...i can be so fun and playful and patient...i was always so great w/ kids...they did not get on my nerves at all until i became a parent and had to deal w/ my dd's half sister when my dd was an infant...then this monster came out of me. now the monster has risen again since my ds was born last november. wth is happening to me!? maybe i just am overwhelmed when i have young babies??? and/or having a load on my shoulders w/ 2 young dc...just being overwhelmed w/ it, having a spirited child???

i am totally for GD...i'm all for unconditional parenting, connective parenting (GREAT books, btw)... but too often i'm horribly reactive...sometimes downright monstrous & i have such great remorse for all those times...my dd is now 6.5 & we are such a vicious cycle...i don't know how to remain calm yet firm and patient all the times she is pushing me way past my limit. i have never been a patient person myself...am working on it. so it makes this GDing all the more of a challenge for me.

i want sooo much to break this cycle but i keep slipping up. i NEVEr thought i'd even raise my voice to my dd and esp. spank her







as i completely do NOT agree with it. it only makes things worse betw. us and for her heart.

people/books say just take a time out for myself even if she won't go cool down on her bed or whatever...even if she won't go run off her energy or bike or whatever and she's driving me nuts.







: (sometimes she will refuse to go release that energy and be even more nasty/difficult). so the books say take a time out for myself...deep breathes...lock myself in the bathroom if i have to. but this is easier said than done for me. i keep on forgetting somehow in the moment of my anger/annoyance and lose it on her again.

i don't want to 'lose' my dd's trust although i know i've surely damaged it too many a time. so what to do...i'm going to take a DBT (dialectical behavior therapy) and hopefully i'll learn something beside breathe and take my own time out...(although often my dd won't let me be alone to even do this!!! she can be so rude!!!!!!!)

so how to break this vicious cycle?! its like i'm nice...she's nice...she's nasty...i'm calm/nice...she's nice...she's nasty...i'm nasty...she's nice...i'm nasty...she's nice, she's nasty... this is just horrible!!!!!!!!!!









i'm working on this but i feel like such a failure than a success. i have turned out to be a sh*t mom to her. i'm beginning to think that i am still suffering from PPD since i have a young ds and when my dd was a baby her half-sis also drove me batty. PPD again then...it could be, i suppose. i also struggle w/ a mood disorder/possible bipolar...i'm on a mood stabilizer but i still struggle w/ patience...

anyway. i am so frustrated w/ my self. i want to stop getting so flustered w/ her when she is like that... replacing the labels w/ positive ones is not easy to honor when i feel that feeling.







:any other suggestions??? (besides time out for myself or breathing or cold water poured on myself!?) guess i could go jump in a hot steamy shower and cry...punching pillows or screaming into them doesn't cut it for me. i need to throw a plate or something. i need some extreme anger management. anyway... help.

ps-i'm also a solo parenting mama. my mother isn't here often (she lives w/ us) and the kids' father's don't help/aren't involved. my dd is in school half a day and she takes art classes but still it isn't enough of a break for me. ugh. this is not easy being a parent!!! CAN PPD last this long (16 mos.) and IS it possible that the older sibling is the one who mama gets flustered by...not the babies??? cuz my babies don't get me in a huff and i don't feel overwhelmed/annoyed by them. even my little toddler boy. (you know how people say PPD symptoms are ie. thoughts of hurting your baby...etc. well i don't have that. not for the babies...)hmmm.

i want help from a therapist but i fear they'd take my kids. i know there are programs out there for parents who want to be gentler w/ their kids who have been awful w/ them at times...i know there are many more of us out there who believe in GD but resort to issues from our childhoods in reaction.

ok i'm babbling. i'm sorry. please don't flame me. i just wanted to join as i know i'm not alone and need support and any advice that may help me to remain cool and calm as lake placid when my dd tests the waters.


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## doublyblessed (Jun 4, 2008)

oh noooooooooooo!!!







so it is really and truly US that need to learn (and quick as we can) to keep our cool. oh man............ oh and i truly believe that part of my dd's 'tude has to do w/ this nasty cycle we are in...when i'm nicer for a few days, she softens...she still does the push/pull thing though. its so frustrating. i need to keep my cool for more than 3 days though...to really undo a lot of this rough edge going on. she punched me in the middle of my back yesterday...it hurt like a b*tch!!!









Quote:


Originally Posted by *sewchris2642* 
Of course not. They're strong willed children. And they will still protest every time even long after they are secretly happy that you are setting boundries and giving clear, defined, limited choices. That's the way these children are wired. And you won't see results any time soon. It could take months, even a year before you look back and wonder when things got easier. And then they will find something else to make your life harder.


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## Funny Face (Dec 7, 2006)

I haven't made it through the whole thread yet but...

I wanted to give you a big







because it sounds like you really have your hands full and being pregnant only makes it more exhausting!

I've got a 3 year old and a 3 month old an parenting really got difficult when I was pregnant and during the postpartum stage. Any patience I once had, or clarity of mind to figure out discipline issues was all used up. I hope you have someone supporting you and helping you through this intense time! If not IRL then here.









To everyone thanks for posting. I'm loving these ideas/suggestions for myself too.







:


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

I haven't read the replies, but I wanted to reassure you that you aren't "doing it wrong." With minor slips here and there, I have really tried hard to use GD with my kids. With ds1, it was really the way to go. He really responded to talking about an issue, and even as a young toddler he was pretty reasonable about what I was asking as long as he understood why and what was going on. Punishment with him just escalated things into a bad place, and taking the time to go through it with him was always the better option.

Then ds2 came along. Very mellow and easy baby and toddler. Once he hit about 4yo, OMG. He is so strong willed. I will try to talk to him and he makes faces at me or turns his head away. He knows when he's doing something he shouldn't be, and will completely ignore me, even as I am trying to make it so he can still get what he wants. It's not until I hit a wall and lose my freaking mind that he pays any attention whatsoever, but this is not the way I want to parent! I have gotten to the point with him where I have to say things like "You are cleaning this up, and you aren't leaving this room until you do." This is something I NEVER would have said to ds1. Ds2 will wail and scream and cry, and then after awhile, he'll clean it up. (God forbid we're on any sort of a schedule.) But again, I don't want things to be like this. I try to sit down and help him, I try to make it a game, but he's not having any of it. It's his way or the highway.

Anyhow, my point is that kids really are different, and while I think being respectful and kind and compassionate is important with every child, some of the typical GD "techniques" are not at all effective with every personality.

And yes, I do admit to having an "agenda" when it comes to parenting my kids. I do want them to be polite, I do want them to clean up their messes, and I do want them to be respectful. For ds1, this meant having a heart to heart with him about how I feel when he is disrespectful. For ds2, it seems to be letting him scream and cry until he abruptly stops and is all of a sudden ready to be reasonable again.


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## funkymamajoy (May 25, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *doublyblessed* 
oh noooooooooooo!!!







so it is really and truly US that need to learn (and quick as we can) to keep our cool. oh man............ oh and i truly believe that part of my dd's 'tude has to do w/ this nasty cycle we are in...when i'm nicer for a few days, she softens...she still does the push/pull thing though. its so frustrating. i need to keep my cool for more than 3 days though...to really undo a lot of this rough edge going on. she punched me in the middle of my back yesterday...it hurt like a b*tch!!!









It's all on us because we are the only ones that we can change. You can't change another person. We can only change our actions. Some children just seem to bring out the worst in ourselves, usually because we see our worse traits mirrored in them. And then we react in the heat of the moment. Practice, practice, practice and roll play outside of those moments so you don't react in the same old way in the future. But like everything else in life, it takes lots of practice and lots of time. Don't beat yourself up in the mean time. Appologize when needed.


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## doublyblessed (Jun 4, 2008)

exactamundo. thank you for your support.







: sometimes giant steps...sometimes baby steps...but i'm getting there. i'm going to start a new thread on non-compliance and maybe another thread on triggers and calming techniques for us.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funkymamajoy* 
It's all on us because we are the only ones that we can change. You can't change another person. We can only change our actions. Some children just seem to bring out the worst in ourselves, usually because we see our worse traits mirrored in them. And then we react in the heat of the moment. Practice, practice, practice and roll play outside of those moments so you don't react in the same old way in the future. But like everything else in life, it takes lots of practice and lots of time. Don't beat yourself up in the mean time. Appologize when needed.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *funkymamajoy* 
It's all on us because we are the only ones that we can change. You can't change another person. We can only change our actions. Some children just seem to bring out the worst in ourselves, usually because we see our worse traits mirrored in them. And then we react in the heat of the moment. Practice, practice, practice and roll play outside of those moments so you don't react in the same old way in the future. But like everything else in life, it takes lots of practice and lots of time. Don't beat yourself up in the mean time. Appologize when needed.

This post isn't from Funkymamajoy but from Sewchris2642. Joy is my dd and I'm using her computer because mine is infected with a malware. Probably is toast. Sorry for the confusion.


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## Talula Fairie (Jan 7, 2005)

I made a post updating you all about my GD efforts.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1062196

I can sum it up with one sentance:

Darned if it doesn't work!


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## The4OfUs (May 23, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Talula Fairie* 
I can sum it up with one sentance:

Darned if it doesn't work!


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## labdogs42 (Jan 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *doublyblessed* 
oh noooooooooooo!!!







so it is really and truly US that need to learn (and quick as we can) to keep our cool. oh man............ oh and i truly believe that part of my dd's 'tude has to do w/ this nasty cycle we are in...when i'm nicer for a few days, she softens...she still does the push/pull thing though. its so frustrating. i need to keep my cool for more than 3 days though...to really undo a lot of this rough edge going on. she punched me in the middle of my back yesterday...it hurt like a b*tch!!!










Have you read "How to Talk so Kids will Listen and Listen so Kids Will talk" yet? That book is fantastic. I also like Scream-Free Parenting. To answer your question from your other post, I'm no psychiatrist, but I would think that PPD could last 16 months and more. Just because your babies aren't driving you crazy doesn't mean you don't have PPD, or just some form of depression or anxiety in general. I'd just go talk to your Primary Care doctor about your stress levels. They can help. You don't have to go to a therapist to get meds for anxiety or depression.


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