# When Church nursery is not GD (kind of long)



## guestmama9972 (Jun 5, 2003)

We have been going to our church for 5 years. We have been tolerating the preschool department for 5 years. But lately I have been especially frustrated. Here's the deal.

The workers love kids, and I know they love my children. Most of the ladies are older and seem to have this mentality that they know best and I am pretty much a clueless fool who drops her kids off every Sunday to their superior care.

When dds were infants, I used to keep them with me at church, much to the disapproval of some of the nursery ladies. Then when the girls got older, I'd take them to their classes and repeatedly asked to be called if they cried or needed to nurse. I got called once. In 5 years. But I have found out since then that dds were allowed to cry because "church was almost out and we knew you'd be right back to nurse her". AAAUGH!

Now that they are older, dd #1 has great teachers. But DD #2 is stuck with CIO-loving teacher who has no problem with her screaming THE WHOLE TIME! Last week a friend of mine actually heard dd#2 screaming for half an hour and she finally went and got dd and brought her to me. The teacher apparently thought that dd was just mad and that if someone were to come and get me, it would just teach dd that screaming gets you what you want. Forbid it that the teacher actually try to meet the emotional needs of one of her 2 year old students. And dd#2 was coming down with a cold and didn't feel well that night. So they just let her scream.

These are just two examples of what has gone on. Others include withholding snacks to a delayed little girl when she refuses to sit on the potty, calling my dd a baby because she wet her pants (she's potty learning right now), letting the kids play in another room while the ladies sit in rocking chairs and gab, and the list goes on.

I have talked to the preschool director (very educated, kind mother of 2) who backs up her teachers. She doesn't get GD at all. She thinks that I let my kids manipulate me.

I have started to avoid the preschool department, but I have responsibilities at church that sometimes demand childcare for my youngest. When possible dh takes her so I can do what I need to do, but that does not always work.

So how can I communicate my concerns so that they will be taken seriously? The preschool department director blows me off, so I guess the next step is talking to the pastor, who is going to refer me back to her. And since the preschool department runs on her philosophy, what am I going to do to educate the whole department on what I believe about GD?

Please don't bash my church or tell me to change churches, OK? It is a great church and I am very involved there. After praying about it I know that leaving is not the right option, and DH totally backs me up. It is just, on occasion, I cannot handle what goes on in the preschool department. Other moms have told me they don't like it, either. Has anyone else faced this situation, and what do I do?


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## BurgundyElephant (Feb 17, 2006)

Yes. I've been in your situation, as a parent.

I've actually been in Church nursery as well.

So I've seen both sides of the story.

Long story short, I no longer attend church. The way they treated my children when I wasn't there, and the way the other parents treated their children (and wanted me to treat them in their absence







) was something I was NOT cool with. I know that's not what you want to hear, but it's what happened in our family.

I'd rather be having fun with my children on my own. YMMV.


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## frontierpsych (Jun 11, 2006)

Do you have a less involved friend at church? I used to volunteer in a church nursery in high school, and even without realising it I was very GD-- I've never thought the kids were trying to manipulate me, I've always just assumed they were crying or fussing for a reason, and so I met their needs. A lot of the high schoolers there used to watch the younger children and babies, and looking back, the kids seemed better off with the teenagers than with the older women because teens usually just go with it-- they take care of the child without some kind of parenting agenda, which it sometimes seems older women have (typical of mother-in-laws, lol!)


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## eclipse (Mar 13, 2003)

Have you tried just telling the teacher and director "Look, she's my kid and I make the decisions, even when you are caring for her. This is not acceptable. I will be dropping in as I see fit and having it out with you if my wishes are not respected." ? If it were me, though, I wouldn't be leaving my child with people I didn't have confidence would treat him or her with respect and not endanger her. I think that if they aren't willing to listen and you aren't willing to change churches, then you need to find alternate care for your daughter while you attend to your church duties. I mean, what are your other options?


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## Arania79 (May 14, 2006)

You said that other mothers were also unhappy with the care in the nursery (?) Why not get together with them, and then speak to the director together as a united group so she knows it's not just one mom being "unreasonable" in her wishes?


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## guestmama9972 (Jun 5, 2003)

That's just it. I don't feel like some of the ladies treat the babies with respect, and it is with all the little ones, not just mine. Fortunately it is a minority of the workers, but the attitute that pervades the nursery is catching to the other workers when the mother hens are in there.

The older classes are terrific--it is just the baby class that I hate.

Thanks for the suggestions. They already think I'm psycho mom, so whatever I do won't surprise anyone!!


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## jennnk (Feb 6, 2005)

There are, IIRC, a few Christian-based GD books. Perhaps getting one or two and giving them to the church? I worked church nursery for 5 years (ages 13-18) and our policy was always "if we can't calm them down, go get mom." I couldn't imagine letting a kid cry for 30 minutes, even before I had kids/knew why CIO is bad. My ears just couldn't take it! I'd a]tell the nursery folk that you are NOT on board with the way they're handling things and you would expect them to respect you as Mama, b]talk to the pastor about things (can't hurt to try, and s/he might be very open to suggestions) and c]look into the Christian-based GD books. Someone who's more religious than I am will be able to help with titles, I'm sure. Good luck!


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

I would just tell them how you feel and how you expect your kids to be treated. But honestly it dosnt sound like it will do much good.







If they feel what they are doing is right then they have no reason to change. Is there any way you can just keep your kids with you? The church we go to does not even have a nursery all the kids sit with the parents.


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## Tendaironi (Jul 7, 2006)

Man there is nothing worse than a crying baby in the nursery so how can they just sit and listen to it, when there is a perfectly willing parent to come and get their child!? That is pretty dumb because it usually starts the other babies crying. Since you cannot trust them with your baby maybe you should cut down on your responsibilities in the church until she is older. That way you can stay at your church and everyone who needs to be happy is happy. In the grand scheme of things your child is more important than anything you do working in the church. My mom (a pastor) always said to me when I find something wrong with the church then it means I should help out in that area or I should just pray for it.

So maybe you can use this time instead of doing Martha type things you can do the Mary and sit at the feet of Jesus. You know the story where Jesus was at Martha and Mary's house and Martha was doing all the work and told Jesus to make Mary help her. Jesus basically told her that what Mary was doing was eternal. I have been heavily involved in church stuff as I am a preacher's kid, preacher's wife and a former pastor myself. Church stuff isn't as important as family, but I know how easy it is to be caught up in working hard for things that seem so important. But just pausing and selahing is great too!


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## Strong Mama (Feb 7, 2006)

Several ideas here. You could volunteer your services in the nursery once a month, or so, so that you can maybe gently show these ladies how you do it, they might not understand GD because they havent seen it?

I know you dont agree with the things they do, I surely dont either by the sounds of it, but ( and please dont flame me or anything, im not an expert) aside from CIO I dont think some of the things they do will harm your child in the long scheme of things when you weigh/outweigh the benefits of going to church, etc. Its only one hour a week in a lifetime, your child will move from that class soon enough anyway. Also you did say not all the workers were like this.

You could bring your children in the church with you. When people complain say..well..I *would* take them to the nursery, but the ladies in there wont listen to me about how I want my children taken care of, wont come get me when they cry, etc, so I have to let them sit in here til something is done about it. Then maybe something would be done about it after the noise level in the church arises. Maybe all the parents who agree with you could do this, even better.

You could print off research about CIO, GD techniques, etc, so that could help them understand where you are coming from.

These are just some ideas...randomly thrown out there for you to think about mama. ((HUGS)))


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## Ambrose (Apr 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tendaironi* 
Man there is nothing worse than a crying baby in the nursery so how can they just sit and listen to it, when there is a perfectly willing parent to come and get their child!? That is pretty dumb because it usually starts the other babies crying. Since you cannot trust them with your baby maybe you should cut down on your responsibilities in the church until she is older. That way you can stay at your church and everyone who needs to be happy is happy. In the grand scheme of things your child is more important than anything you do working in the church. My mom (a pastor) always said to me when I find something wrong with the church then it means I should help out in that area or I should just pray for it.

So maybe you can use this time instead of doing Martha type things you can do the Mary and sit at the feet of Jesus. You know the story where Jesus was at Martha and Mary's house and Martha was doing all the work and told Jesus to make Mary help her. Jesus basically told her that what Mary was doing was eternal. I have been heavily involved in church stuff as I am a preacher's kid, preacher's wife and a former pastor myself. Church stuff isn't as important as family, but I know how easy it is to be caught up in working hard for things that seem so important. But just pausing and selahing is great too!

I'm not Christian but was raised Christian and still hold some things very dear. One being that I learned Family was a VERY important thing and it was above work. I was going to post almost the exact same advice as Tend. Please cut back on the activities within your church where DD#2 cannot be with you and would end up in the nursery.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Woops, I see you only use the daycare for dd#2 occasionally. How about talking with dd#1's teachers (you said they were good) and seeing if both your girls can go there the few times you need it?


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## brackin (Sep 19, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jennnk* 
There are, IIRC, a few Christian-based GD books. Perhaps getting one or two and giving them to the church?

Have you read Wm and Martha Sears' book, The Complete Christian guide to Parenting and Child Care? Excellent. Sounds like your church nursery workers could learn a thing or two from it!







: Good luck.


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## moondiapers (Apr 14, 2002)

I would cut down on my volunteering. Let them know that you love being involved but can only help out when your dh can watch the kids because you feel your children aren't cared for properly.


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## Proudly AP (Jul 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moondiapers* 
I would cut down on my volunteering. Let them know that you love being involved but can only help out when your dh can watch the kids because you feel your children aren't cared for properly.

I really like this idea. It presents the impact of the poor care upon the rest of the church commuunity-not that it's punishment, but, truly, the chilcare services they provide DO have more impact (for the poor kiddos and their parents) than some might like to acknowledge


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

ITA with moondiapers. This is what we did. I love our church, love our pastor, feel very led to stay there, as the teaching is right on. The only problem is the childrens minisry, and most of that is due to the parent volunteers, who raise their children punativly, and bring that teaching into the preschool dept. I used to be very involved with church, going 3 times aweek on a slow week. I have since then totally cut out everything but the actual service, and I have dd with me fr that. I teach one of the nursery classes, the one my dd is in. I feel it is important for me to teach, because 1. Then dd gets a chance to go to nursery, I would never leave her there without me and 2. I can impart some of my wonderful GD wisdom on some clueless mothers and teachers. Seriously, we have a waiting list for our room, and there are other rooms for this age level that are never full. Parents DO notice that there is something different about us (my mom co-teaches, and she is very AP) and they ask for their kids to be switched into our room. I would bow out of activities if it meant leaving your daughter in the nursery, and I would be very honest as to why you are no longer going to volunteer your time. I'm sorry that this is going on in your church. I am right there with you, its a very hard situation, especially when you get people who think you are being 'manipulated' by your children.














:


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## AngelaVA (Nov 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *moondiapers* 
I would cut down on my volunteering. Let them know that you love being involved but can only help out when your dh can watch the kids because you feel your children aren't cared for properly.

This is basically what I had to do in my church. I love my church and am very involved there too, but in my case it is the facilities and rather than the workers that are totally inadequate. Tons of babies and toddlers all crammed into one tiny room, there is nowhere to put the younger babies where they won't get trampled by the older ones and two people is not enough to care for all of them and hold babies that aren't mobile at the same time. I have started saying no to anything I can't do while caring for DD. I just tell them I will be interested in doing it again when DD is older or when we expand our nursery so that she can stay in it. A friend with has been doing the same thing and it has actually made our pastor and trustees more serious about working on the nursery situation (dedicating funds to renovation and such). When I was at Women of Faith Patsy Clairmont made a comment that sometimes when you say no to something at church you are actually saying yes to your family. I like to remind myself about that from time to time.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

I agree with everyone who recommends cutting back on your responsibilities. Personally, I felt capable of continuing as a children's church leader after my first was born -- I could have held and nursed her in the sling -- but leadership didn't really approve so I only did stuff where I could have her with me.


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## fremontmama (Jun 11, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arania79* 
You said that other mothers were also unhappy with the care in the nursery (?) Why not get together with them, and then speak to the director together as a united group so she knows it's not just one mom being "unreasonable" in her wishes?


That is exactly what I would suggest. Definitely get together with the other moms who are not happy with the current state of things in that room and perhaps you could work with the director of the preschool to set up some standards of care. I know CIO is absolutely not allowed at our dd's daycare as well as shaming, etc. Perhaps that room just needs more structure in what the preschool expects? And maybe that would help improve things.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I have dealt with this issue at my church as well, and I used to have a lot of gripes and complaints. One day, my DH gently pointed out that I needed to examine my own attitude, and try to be less judgemental. He pointed out that the services provided at the church were provided by _volunteers._ Because of that fact, he felt it was innapropriate for me to lay down specific expectations, and try to control the way they choose to _serve_. He suggested that I accept whatever part of their "gift" that I was willing to, and simply say "no thank you" to whatever part didn't feel like a gift to me.

Since then, I've changed my approach to dealing with these church ladies and I feel much better about it. I never force my kids to go to any of the classes or sitters, and I make alternate arrangments when I have to. I bring my children into the church service with me frequently. I will also stay in Sunday school with them if they feel anxious and want me too.

Also, my DH has gotten very involved in the sunday school program -- he teaches the toddlers and is close enough to our own kid's classes to hear them if they have a problem. He is able to be gentle and sensitive with the toddlers in the church, and many of the mother's start their kids in his class before they are technically old enough, and leave them there past the time they should have moved on! LOL.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I think you need to forget for a moment that it's church. Are these people you would trust your child with otherwise? If yes, then work with them. If no (which it sounds like) then it's not a responsible decision to leave your children with them. Period.

-Angela


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## mollyeilis (Mar 6, 2004)

I don't know, I tend to see things as a whole, and if one part of a whole is wrong, then the whole is lessened in my eyes. So, to me, the entire church would be lessened, since they are allowing this.

To me, it's not even a "GD" issue at all. It's a matter of treating the children well. For a group of women to sit around chatting while they let children cry and so on, that's WRONG. You wouldn't allow it by someone you hired, and if a volunteer can't do a job as though they are getting paid, they shouldn't be doing it. I don't buy the "they are volunteering" thing at all, not one little bit. They volunteered to do a job. They should do it.

Letting a baby cry for half an hour, when they were told to and I would imagine have the means to get the mother, is not doing their job.

But I don't even think GD plays into it at all. If I as a former babysitter had done those things, I would have been fired.

Just b/c it's church doesn't mean it should be allowed, and just b/c it's free doesn't mean it should be allowed.

If this aspect of the church didn't totally blacken it for me (and it WOULD, no doubt about it), I would start hiring a babysitter to care for my kids at home, and would just go to church free and clear. If asked, I'd be honest. I bet that would eventually trickle back to someone important...

If there are other parents who feel that way, perhaps you could pool resources, hire a couple babysitters to watch a few of your kids? Or perhaps trade off care where one of you stays with the kids at someone's home while the others go to church or volunteer or whatever? That too would likely get back to someone important.


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## nurturinglovely (Sep 1, 2005)

I have been there and done that......

to sum of God's view on the situation:

"Let the little children come unto me".......He never held them at arms length
"Let them become like little children".....we should aim to be more like them in their sincerity rather then force them to be learned calloused adults.
"If a someone offends a child it would be better for them to have a milstone tied to his neck and thrown into the sea." explains itself.

It is a serious issue.

Also the Bible calls us to be Christlike. and nowhere does this say that it doesnt apply to our beautiful children.

I highly recommend any woman to get "Biblical Parenting" - Crystal Lutton
It is the BEST book on the issue i have seen.(and i have read them all...even the cursed Ezzo books..







)

To all you who've nixed church on account of these nurserys...

my deepest apologies.....it's a painful thing for someone to offend our dear ones.

navae
wife to Casey the worlds best drummer, and mama to Micah 3, Azi 17mo.
Natural living, co-sleeping, non-vaxing, anti-circ, vegan eating wierdos!!!


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## mommykmm (Jan 20, 2005)

You've already talked with the teachers and their supervisor -- and have not had your issues resolved. Sounds to me like you need to take your complaints to the pastor -- let him or her know you want to continue to be involved in church activities but don't feel that you can knowing that your children aren't being cared for in a loving and respectful manner. Ask the pastor to mediate a meeting between you, the teachers and their supervisors. Offer to present an inservice on GD (using a Chritian based GD book like Dr. Sears or Biblibal Parenting by Pastor Crystal Lutton) to all of the teachers.


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## KristaH (Jul 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mom2anna* 
Please don't bash my church or tell me to change churches, OK? It is a great church and I am very involved there. After praying about it I know that leaving is not the right option, and DH totally backs me up. It is just, on occasion, I cannot handle what goes on in the preschool department. Other moms have told me they don't like it, either. Has anyone else faced this situation, and what do I do?

Well, to be honest, the only thing screaming in my head as I read your entire post was that I would be looking for a new church. Not all the members of your family are getting their needs met there (your younger dd), and if I were in your shoes, it wouldn't matter how much *I* loved it, that wouldn't be enough for me.

If you want to stay in that church, you're going to have to accept the way your children are taken care of and somehow come to terms with that. You say it's just "on occasion". You cannot make people conform to a GD point of view in one or two hours a week.

Sorry if I'm too blunt.


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## nurturinglovely (Sep 1, 2005)

I agree with bringing the issue to leadership...

but i do believe it would be most beneficial to also have a pastor's wife or some equivilant.. men aren't wired for intuitive mothering... that doesn't mean they aren't good at it by any means... it just means that as a gender they tend to think more logically and are apt (out of that) to side with the CIO folk.

*** As you may notice - the ones that started that way of thinking, and writing expert books were in fact men.

Just to reiderate: There are wonderful fathers out there... like my husband... he has very sensitive intutions and knows full well to trust mine.... unfortunately due to our western culture - they are the minority.

Check out Rebecca Prewett's site (google her name) and read the article, "Woman to Woman" by Helen Aardsma....

Every woman - christian or not - should read this. It is life changing.


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## guestmama9972 (Jun 5, 2003)

Thank you all for your thoughts and advice. And thanks for being supportive about my church in general--I never quite know what to expect!! Just for the record, I am going to this particular because DH and I know that it is where God wants us. Why we are facing issues with my youngest's well-being at church, I don't know. But we are still working to figure something out.

I talked to my dad about the situation (retired pastor)--he does not go to my church, but he was appalled and said, "It would be a shame if you had to find another church". After all, it is his granddaughters that are being affected!







I have a friend who thinks we should find another church as well, but I really don't think this is the right answer.

What I have decided to do is talk to the preschool director again. This time I am going to have some specific suggestions on what might help dd when she is in her offending class. For example, having some planned activities for her, taking her on the playground (it is still warm here in the desert), letting her *help* with the little babies, and getting me when she is seriously unhappy. If my suggestions are considered, I'll try her in the class again. If they aren't, I will take her with me to the class I teach. Taking younger ones into classes for older children is frowned upon there, but what other choices do I have? DD is getting to where she begs not to go into her class, and I refuse to make her go. Part of the problem is that they don't do anything with her--she wanders for an hour!

I'll look at the books you recommended.

I will keep you updated with how the talk goes with the preschool director. I, too, am sorry that some of you have had equally bad experiences with childcare at church. My heartfelt apologies.


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## Tendaironi (Jul 7, 2006)

_Just for the record, I am going to this particular because DH and I know that it is where God wants us. Why we are facing issues with my youngest's well-being at church, I don't know._

It is good that you are being obedient to what God has told you in the midst of unpleasant circumstances. Churches cannot be all things to all people, nor are they perfect because they are made up of humans just trying to work out their salvation. I can't tell you the number of times my parents had to protect my brother and I from the flock, because sometimes there are wolves in sheep's clothing or just immature people. But the benefits of attending and worshiping God with others so outweigh the bad times. So taking your daughter to you class sounds like the best way for her needs to be met and you can continue on in your ministry. Really Sunday school doesn't replace what the parent teaches about God, it just reinforces what is being taught at home. What better way can she learn about Jesus than from your lap?!


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## trini (Sep 20, 2005)

What great advice and insightfulness on this thread. It also makes me feel very blessed about the care ds gets in our church nursery.


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## mommykmm (Jan 20, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *theeLogans* 
I agree with bringing the issue to leadership...

but i do believe it would be most beneficial to also have a pastor's wife or some equivilant.. men aren't wired for intuitive mothering... that doesn't mean they aren't good at it by any means... it just means that as a gender they tend to think more logically and are apt (out of that) to side with the CIO folk.

*** As you may notice - the ones that started that way of thinking, and writing expert books were in fact men.

Just to reiderate: There are wonderful fathers out there... like my husband... he has very sensitive intutions and knows full well to trust mine.... unfortunately due to our western culture - they are the minority.

Fortunately the male pastor at our church _is_ one of those sensitive men. His wife works full time and went back to work when their son was 12 weeks old. She pumped for the baby (for at least a year, maybe longer) and our pastor took the baby to work with him at church. It was not unusual at all for him to be wearing the baby while he spoke, counseled, etc. His office looked like a nursery -- it was great. Once the baby became a toddler they found a sitter for him, but it was nice to see a dad spending so much time with his little one.


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## georgia (Jan 12, 2003)

Quote:

Why we are facing issues with my youngest's well-being at church, I don't know.
Maybe so you can help bring awareness to the church admin. so that y'all can facilitate change so that _all the children_ in the nursery will be treated better in the future?
















Good luck with everything!


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## FreeThinkinMama (Aug 3, 2004)

I would find childcare outside of the church. Why does it have to be all or nothing? You've already voiced your concerns to these women, I don't see how you're going to talk any sense into them, they seem very set in their ways. It seems very risky to me to leave them in their care when you don't find out about these incidents until much later and you're only hearing bits & peices of what's going on.


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## mimiharshe (Oct 16, 2006)

another book to look at would be Christlike Parenting by Dr. Glenn I. Latham...my husband said it "changed his life"


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