# I peirced my DDs ears yesterday....



## Spicey Momma (Jul 24, 2003)

It was a real struggle too. I had wanted it done since she was tiny (now nearly 14 months).

Everything NFL in me was screaming "WHAT ARE YOU DOING! YOU ARE ABOUT TO PUT *HOLES* IN YOUR DD'S BODY!!!!

But everything mainstream in me was trying to calm my "crunchy side" by saying, "DD is a princess, and this will be so cute. DO IT!!! DO IT!!!". As insurance I brought along a friend that is a little crunchy, but has her daughters ears peirced.

How do you guys feel about this? Am I the only crunchy momma that has peirced her DDs ears? BTW, DD took it like a champ. She was only upset about the "restraint position" I had to hold her in.


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## JoAida (Mar 29, 2003)

Just my philosophy: I do not do anything to my children's bodies that could be long lasting or permanent unless it is medically necessary.


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## Butter (Oct 6, 2004)

Miss A has pierced ears. She begged to get them done back in March a few weeks after she turned 4. I wouldn't have had them done just because I wanted to, but she really did and is so proud to have those cute little purple earrings now (we've never changed them from the starter earrings).


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## waterproofmascara (Apr 2, 2004)

My Little Miss is begging to have her ears pierced. I have never mentioned it to her, but she loves helping me pick out which earrings to wear in the morning, and I guess she got the idea from there.
She'll be 3 in December, so I am planning on having it done then if she hasn't changed her mind.


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## weebitty2 (Jun 16, 2004)

dd had her ears pierced at 3mo .. but, like her daddy, every hole you put in her body bleeds like a .. so .. out they came.







If she wants them again when she's older, we'll try again, though.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Never would I do this. It is my childs body, possibley if she asks me enough about it and seems to genuinely want to do it, and understands it will hurt and she will need to learn to take care of them. But at 5 she just doesn't seem ready for it. Occaisionally she asks, but I talk about it and then she doesn't want to do it.


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## NB Mom (Jul 7, 2004)

My Mom had my ears pierced when I was 7 yo, and after many talks about what it meant (pain, taking care of ears and earrings). I plan to do the same, whenever my DD seams to be interested.


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## LaffNowCryLater (May 2, 2003)

I would never pierce my dd's ears until she wants them pierced. I plan on using it as a reward one day when she is older. (For example-If she gets good grades on her report card-she can get her ears pierced if she would like.)


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## Melda (Mar 27, 2003)

i will not get my DD's ears peirced until she is old enough to ask for them and to take care of them properly (prolly 10-12-14??) who knows?? I just dont want to put holes in her body and it not be a choice she made because she may never make that choice.....


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## Kylix (May 3, 2002)

I too would never pierce my child's ears (alter their body) without their consent. I don't feel that a child can give consent, knowing the pain involved and the upkeep too, until a much later age--middle childhood.

It is a painful process, it is a body altering process, and it requires daily upkeep. All things that a young child can not understand and can not ask for/consent to.

Kylix


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## Ravin (Mar 19, 2002)

I think it partly comes into a cultural context. There are some cultural segments of our society where it is more common to pierce ears very young, and some where it is not. Ear piercings, if abandoned later by someone who doesn't want to wear earrings any more, are not a major deal. I say that as someone with pierced ears who hasn't worn earrings in years.


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## stayinghome (Jul 4, 2002)

I have three girls. I will never pierce their ears until they want it, beg for it, and understand the pain and care afterwords involved.

Just as if I had had boys and didn't feel I had the right to circumsise them without their consent, I do not feel i have the right to pierce my girls' ears without their consent.

But... this is just my opinion. Lots of people do this in our culture, and if you feel ok about it that's what matters for your family.


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

No, I would not do this. Not unless my daughter truly wanted them, and was old enough to have real informed consent.


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## mermommy (Aug 16, 2004)

I wouldn't pierce my DD's ears before the age of 4 ( at the earliest) .

I would never pierce my DD just because I wanted it done - pick out cute clothes/ cute halloween costumes? Fine - Have metal studs shot into her body? No.

I absloutely hate seeing babies and young children struggling in the chairs at the piercing shops . Sure the parents think it's cute but it can wait.

If you have to hold your child down and they are struggling against you during the procedure it is not worth it just to get earrings. It's hard enough to watch a child that needs some sort of medical scan or exam done and is struggling but for jewelry?


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## Spicey Momma (Jul 24, 2003)

: *sniff* noone agrees with me...........


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

I had my dd's ears pierced when she was 12 mos. old. It's traditional to do this for both boys and girls on their first birthdays. I made sure it was done in India where they can do it without it hurting (I had my nose pierced in India, so I can speak from personal experience abut it not hurting). Dd was fine with it, never has played with her ears, never minded it. She thinks they are pretty.

Not sure if we are going to get Nitara's done since she's not going to India until she's older most likely. But yeah, it's one of those things that dh and I feel strongly about that should be done according to tradition. We also shaved Abi's head at 12 mos. and will shave Nitara's sometime when she's had a chance to heal from all the medical procedures and is less touchy about people handling her.

Both things are reversible. If it was a permanant thing like circumcision I would wait and let the child decide when they were of an age to do that.

Darshani


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## moon_goddess (Jun 19, 2004)

i would have waited till *she could have made the decision. it isnt my body so why should i make the decision to mutilate it.

btw i have a lot of piercings and tattoo's and i would only allow my ds to have these if he was ready and wanting to have these things done.

sorry mama that noone is in agreement but this is a tough subject


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## Nankay (Jan 24, 2002)

How do I feel about this? uke

Can't you just buy some sticker earrings at the Dollar Store?


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## Nicole77 (Oct 20, 2003)

Madeline has been asking for earrings non-stop for about one month. She is enraptured with my mother's many, many varieties of earrings (I have pierced ears but just wear the same pair of studs most of the time). Despite my mother's continued insistence (in front of dd) that I should just do it dh and I have held firm to our decision that she can get them pierced when she is older if she still wants to.

We tell her she can do it when she is 8 because she responds well to a definite number (even though she doesn't really understand the concept of time in years). Eight isn't really the magic number though; I just figure that is roughly how old she will be when she can mostly take care of them herself. Hey, she may not even ask at that point. She could move right to a nose ring! :LOL


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## srain (Nov 26, 2001)

I think it's wrong to permanently alter anyone's body without their informed consent. A lot of folks who pierce their babies' ears would be appalled if someone suggested they tattoo them instead....


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## Spicey Momma (Jul 24, 2003)

it isn't permanent......

I had no idea this was such a touchy subject. Next time I do something mainstream to my kids I am keeping my mouth shut :X


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## Fleurette (Feb 28, 2003)

Haven't done it, but almost wish I'd had when she was an itty bitty baby. Would have been easier to care for and in my cultural background it's expected and most baby girls get their ears pierced and then wear the gold earrings their nonnas give them. Dd has the earrings her nonnna gave her, but at almost 2.5 years, no holes yet. I might do them soon, but I haven't decided. It's just been a royal pain to get somewhere to get them done.


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## mermommy (Aug 16, 2004)

The responses here have nothing to do with it beaing " mainstream" and everything to do with it being a body modification that the child did not ask for and could not stop you from making. I know plenty of " mainstream" parents who would be just as appalled by your decision.


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

I have serious issues with the idea of decorating a little girl by poking holes in her and filling them with symbols of wealth. I can't undertand how people who will argue to the death for no circ will then happily punch holes in their daughters. And I think it's wrong to decorate another person's body BY PIERCING HOLES IN THEM without their informed concent.

In my family, children can have piercings when they are old enough to pay for (and I don't mean at some place in the mall) and care for their own piercings.


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

This is one of those things that I don't feel very strongly about. I haven't had my dd's ears done (she's 21 months) and will wait until she asks. But if she's three and she asks - that's fine with me.

I think there's alot worse things people do to/with their children than getting their ears pierced. It's not exactly a "life altering decision". JMHO.


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## elephantheart (Sep 2, 2004)

I have 3 little girls, soon to be four. I cringe when I see little babies getting their ears pierced. All the screaming and crying. Torture for beauty? Not a lesson I want my daughters to come away with. It's one thing to choose it for yourself, to be able to weigh the consequences and decide if it's worth it for you. It's another thing to have no say in the matter, and to not even be old enough to care about their being there or enjoy the benefits of "beauty" as an older girl could do. My oldest daughter is 4 and has asked a few times to wear earrings. When I tell her she can have them but that piercing involves pain, she decides to wait until she's a bit older. I want my daughter to know I respect her enough to allow her to make a decision like this that is in no way necessary.
I agree that it's sad enough when a child has to go through something they can't understand for medical reasons. For pure aesthetics, I would not do it.


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## scrapadoozer (Jun 10, 2004)

I would not be comfortable with piercing my daughter's ears for the simple reason that they are her ears and I think she should decide what she wants to do with them.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

"it isn't permanent" Uh yeah it is. You poked holes in your daughters baby earlobes just because you think it looks cute. Honestly I say shame on people who do that. It IS permanent. I had mine done very young and now I hate earrings. I haven't worn them for 5.5 years and they are still very visible. You can see the hole scars and IMO it looks dumb, like I forgot to wear my earrings or something. Plus they still get infected sometimes for no reason. Why should I (or any girl/woman) have to walk around with scars on our ears so our mothers can ooh and aah over us. Geesh, buy a pretty dress or something. And also you asked opinions, if you wanted pats on the back then you should have said so.


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## Sandrine (Apr 14, 2004)

I wanted to get dd1 ear pierce but her ears didn't fall so that the gun would fit. That said now at 22mths, i'm too worried that she'll play with them. I'm gonna wait until she is old enough to decide or maybe do a ritual for when she becomes a woman. Make it a whole day of fun for us. Shopping, get her ears pieced, a fanxy lunch, etc...

Now with dd2, I'm going to wait too. I dont find it fair that she could get her ears done and not dd1. I may do with her the same as with dd1 and make it a ritual of womanhood.

My mom and sil are both not understanding why I'm not doing it. They would have done it as soon as they could have. Even if the child was 1yr or older.


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## Evergreen (Nov 6, 2002)

I'm sorry if you're feeling attacked. I know that isn't what you bargained for when you posted.

I am glad your daughter hasn't tried to pull them out, and hopefully she will leave them alone. Mine wouldn't have kept her hands off of them at that age.

I can't justify the pain, plus I don't think little children look cute with earings. Not that they make the child look ugly, but it is a similar feeling as when I see little girls in full faces of makeup.


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## Spicey Momma (Jul 24, 2003)

Honestly I didn't know everyone here would be so cold about it. When it comes down to it, she is my duaghter, I love, and only want the best for her. I would never do anything that would really hurt her. I remember having my ears peirced, and it wasn't bad.

I feel like everyone is looking down at me for doing this. DD is fine, and is hasn't cried or pulled at her ears once. She doesn't mind me cleaning them either. I have more trouble combing her hair in the morning than I did peircing her ears!

I have really come to love MDC has a community and have learned lots here. Before coming here I was pretty mainstream. However noone has the right to judge me. Noone has the right to say I have hurt my child, when I did not.

The only pain I have from this experience is the anxiety this thread has caused


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## fayking (Jun 28, 2004)

i think children should have piercings when they are able to consent and look after them. (about 10 or so) i had my ears pierced when i was eight and i didnt turn them enough, the butterfly back of one of the studs grew over and i had to have it cut out at the ER. it was a frightening experience.
i now have a fair few piercings...nose,stretched ears, lip but i had these done at a proffesional piercing shop not at a mall. you should never have your body pierced with a gun only a needle. a gun shoots blunt metal thru your body which can cause lasting damage.
piercings need to be cared for properly and do leave lasting marks...


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

"The only pain I have from this experience is the anxiety this thread has caused" We weren't talking about YOUR pain. I'm glad your daughter isn't having a problem with them. My point is its not YOUR decision to make. Its her body.


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## mmace (Feb 12, 2002)

My oldest had her ears pierced three months before her fourth birthday. She was about to be the flower girl in my friends wedding, and she wanted pierced ears in the worst way. She had been asking for them for probably six months at that point. I told her over and over again that it would hurt to have them done, but she was adament about wanting them. She has loved them ever since, and we have never had any problem with them.

At the end of this month she will be turning eleven (where did the years go?!) and the only thing she has asked for is to have her ears pierced a second time. So, we are going to make a big day out of it. She turns eleven on the 30th (a Saturday) and we will go to lunch, do a little shopping, and get her ears pierced. Just the two of us.


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## party_of_seven (May 10, 2004)

Spicey, I'm sorry that you feel attacked, but you did ask for opinions.











I am opposed to it for the same reasons that all of the other posters listed. My 6 year old decided that she wanted her ears pierced about 2 months ago. I fully informed her about what it would entail...even exactly what the procedure would be like. I told her that it would hurt, but it wouldn't last long. I also told her what the aftercare involved. She wavered for a little while, and it took her a few weeks to finally decide that she really wanted it. I took her to the mall and helped her pick a nice starter set. She sat in the chair like a really big kid and took it like a champ(but you could tell it hurt her a little) there were no tears involved, and I didn't hold her down. I even gave her the chance at the last minute to change her mind but she insisted on doing it. She was SO proud of herself. I took her out to dinner when we were done. It was really nice. She managed all of the aftercare herself, and she even saved her allowance and bought herself a pair of $25 ear rings.

IMHO, I think that letting the child make an informed decision is many times better than holding them down and forcing it on them. My mom forced me to have mine pierced twice, and I rarely wear any ear rings now...it was not a nice experience.

I'm sure my dd will look back and remember the wonderful time we had when I took her to get her ears pierced.

My 3yo dd is dying to have her's done, but I won't let her yet. She cannot comprehend that it will hurt a little, and I'm not "restraining" my child for an unnecessary procedure like that.







:

Always listen to your heart!!!


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## Anguschick1 (Jul 25, 2003)

Note to would-be-piercing mamas:

The guns that they use at the mall CANNOT BE STERILIZED! That in and of itself would be enough to convince me not to pierce (if I did make the decision to alter my child's body w/out discussing it w/them first.) Go to a reputable piercer who will use sterilized/1 use needles & supplies.

I would allow my children to get their ears pierced as a rite of passage around 13-14 or start of menarche for any daughters.


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## waterproofmascara (Apr 2, 2004)

Geesh... they're just earrings.
In the larger scheme of things, does it really matter if the mom pierced the ears without the permission of a toddler? I mean, if the daughter grows up to hate her mom simply because she pierced her ears without written permission, then that family has more serious problems than just ear piercing.
And are earrings really life altering for a toddler? Because in 2 months, my two year old is getting hers done as a 3rd birthday present that she asked for. Maybe I should record her asking me to have them pierced for future proof that I did it with her permission.


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## stayinghome (Jul 4, 2002)

Natasha-







Oh please don't feel bad about the posts. I agree that you brought it up by starting the post. But like I said before, she is your daughter and you made the choice that you feel comfortable with. I formula fed my first born and I'm sure if I started a post about that I'd get some differing viewpoints. You are entitled to your own opinion here, even if it does differ from a lot of views here.


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

{{{{{{{{{{{Spicey Momma}}}}}}}}}}}

Hey, don't worry about it. You are right, she's your daughter and you have to do what is right for you and your family. You did ask how people felt and they are telling you. Don't take it personally. People are opionnated. Some of them are just a little more, um, "colorful", not to mention *forceful* in expressing them. Personally, I would find it inappropriate to say things like appalling and shameful, even if it is something I feel strongly about, such as breastfeeding, natural childbirth, or circumcision. I used to say things like "genital mutilation", but it just puts people off. It doesn't convince anybody of the validity of my position, kwim? I think it is important to remember we can never be 100% sure where the other person is coming from. No judgement until walking a mile in there shoes, etc. Not that I always remember to do that.







:

Anyway, you wanted to know if other crunchy moms had had their dd's ears pierced. Yes, I have. She was about three and a half and it was to celebrate her weaning from the breast. It was something she wanted to do, she understood there would be pain involved and that they would need to be cared for. She did great, just winced a little, no tears. It is a good memory for her. A rite of passage. I still help her care for them and she has always done just fine with them. I had mine done at age five. I went with my mom, who's own parents had forbidden it, and she wanted me to have them if I wanted them. I don't wear them much anymore, mostly due to motherhood, but I like having the option.


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## kate-astrophe (Jan 26, 2004)

My dd (24 months) is fascinated with earrings. She's always trying to put mine on and she puts tiny stickers on her ears when she gets the chance. She's a very girly girl. So, I don't expect to hold off on ear peircing for very long. I know she'll love having them.

I want her to be able understand a few things first: one, that it will hurt. and two, that they will need special care for a little while. I plan on doing this care myself. One of the reasons I wouldn't mind her being on the young side when she gets her ears peirced is so I can make sure they get the care they need and they heal properly. I wouldn't feel comfortable leaving the care to her until she is much much older, like nine or ten. And I don't think she'll like waiting that long.

ETA:

(((spiceymomma))) Don't let 'em get you down. Equating ear pericing with circumcision is ridiculous. You are not mutilating your daughter at anywhere near that level. Ear peircing doesn't remove any tissue, doesn't impede any function, just adds a place to put some decoration if you should so choose. I don't know about you, but I have to restrain my child just to change her diaper sometimes. Does that make diaper changing wrong? No, but I bet there's some people on this site who would argue that it does.

Choosing not to peirce your daughter's (or son's) ears because of ethical reasons is fine. I'm glad you've come to that conclusion. But really, the level of condescension and judgement onthis thread is uncalled for. It's just ear peircing! Body modification has been a part of human culture for eons! Compared to some of the things that tribal cultures do this is NOTHING!

I like the idea of using ear peircing as a weaning gift. That's probably what I'll do with dd, because it will fall in about the same time-frame.

-Kate


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## nikirj (Oct 1, 2002)

I had mine done as a child (not an infant) and the scars are very much visible. I don't want earings and don't like having the scars. My kids will not be getting earings until they are certain they want them and it doesn't seem to just be a whim. Once they know they want them, I don't care how many peircings they get or where (with a good peircer, not with one of those disease-transmission-machines-waiting-to-happen at the mall), but the point is that I'm not doing the deciding.

In the grand scheme of things, I don't think that this is a huge deal. It is something I'd never do, though.


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

I have deep, deep ethical concerns about a parent deciding this for their child. Hello! it is a _minor surgical procedure_ done for _purely cosmetic reasons_. Unlike circ (which I also oppose) there are not even any specious medical "reasons" to be used as excuses.

I have a handful of piercings myself. I plan on increasing that number. My 5-yo ds wants to be pierced and he will, after he hits puberty, by a reputable piercer who has served an apprenticeship, and using proper, sterile instruments not one of those gawdawful guns.

Despite what many piercing shops would like you to think, it's not *always* a case of earrings in, presto, done. Sometimes there are complications that produce not only pain and suffering but permanent body alteration much more noticeable than a small hole.

Do you know what hypertrophic scarring is? Keloids? What if your dd's lobes had violently reacted to the studs? What if the piercer had f*cked up (those twits in the mall only have about 2 weeks training)? What if your daughter's lobes had *rejected* the studs, possibly leaving her with permanently "forked" lobes, or slit-like holes in them? What if she had turned out to be one of the individuals whose piercings, for some indiscernible reason, become persistently infected when pierced?

You can't simply say, well, it turned out OK so my choice was fine, because there was no guarantee that it WOULD turn out fine, and it sounds like you (along with most people I know of who have had this done to their babies







) did not do any research or really inform yourself of the risks. If you want to have minor cosmetic surgery without informing yourself of the possible risks, that's your business, but people owe their children more responsibility.

I agree, what the heck is wrong with clip-ons or stickers from the dollar store?







Just because a child is "yours" doesn't mean that it's OK to alter their body without their consent, and even if they're old enough to ask for it, the adult is supposed to be the one who comprehends & weighs the risks.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

My mom made me wait till I was 13, which I still resent (the arbritariness of 13 . . .).

It's my kid's body - s/he can peirce whatever s/he wants whenever (though, since it is a hygene issue, I'd make her/him wait till s/he was mature enough to brush her/his teeth well twice a day without prompting; if s/he is mature enough to do that s/he is mature enough to put rubbing alcohol on her/his ears twice a day). I've had many piercings in various places over the years, and they are not permanant things like tattoos.

I would wait for her to ask. BUT, I don't think you can compare it to cricing.

Sorry OP, that some of these answers have been so harsh and strident. We're a judgemental bunch, I guess.


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## gurumama (Oct 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spicey Momma*







: *sniff* noone agrees with me...........

There is a clear reason why no one agrees with you. There are many forms of pain our children experience that we cannot prevent.

You chose to let her experience a pain that is preventable. And solely ornamental. And not her decision.


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## BeansEemie (Jul 23, 2004)

When I was 5 I wanted to get my ears pierced but my mother wanted to save it for my Bat mitzvah. I did not undersatnd the whole becoming-a-woman angle and appearently went to my father about it. They were divorced and he was an abusive a$$. He was happy to take this away from her. So I got my ears pierced. And she was crushed.

But ya know what, I was fine. And when I was 12, I got second holes put in my ears with my mom. It may not have been what she had in mind, but it meant a lot to me. And the first holes, well, I don't really think of them as from anyone. They were because of my own persistance.

What was my point in sharing this personal story? Well, sometimes kids might really know what they can handle. Or maybe they don't know what they can handle but they can handle more than we give them credit for? Or maybe I shared it as an example of our own visions getting in the way of seeing what our children want?


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gurumama*
There is a clear reason why no one agrees with you. There are many forms of pain our children experience that we cannot prevent.

You chose to let her experience a pain that is preventable. And solely ornamental. And not her decision.

actually there are some mamas who agree with her and many mamas who believe that thier not agreeing with her is not a big deal (mamas who believe that peicing babies' ears isn't going to have big ol' negative ramifications down the road; ideologically I might not think it the best idea, but, really, pierced ears as a babe won't make any difference in her beloved daughter's life).


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## nikirj (Oct 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BeansEemie*
When I was 5 I wanted to get my ears pierced ... So I got my ears pierced...What was my point in sharing this personal story? Well, sometimes kids might really know what they can handle. Or maybe they don't know what they can handle but they can handle more than we give them credit for?

Well, you were 5. Even this is way different from an infant. My daughter, at 4.5, wanted to have an aquarium with fish. I didn't think she'd stick with it, but she has fed them twice a day for a month now. If she wanted earrings she'd be able to take care of them.

My DS is 2.5. He would have taken the fish out and tried to feed them soup (by letting them swim in it) if I hadn't stopped him.

It's more about knowing your own child's limits, and occassionally trusting them when they insist their limits are higher. If my DD wanted earrings, she has already proven that at 4.5 she is old enough to know what she's asking for and that they need care, and if she continued to want them after a couple of months (proving it wasn't a passing whim) I'd probably try to find someone who would do them (I understand it can be tough to get an actual not-gross-person-in-the-mall peircer to do children).


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## wenat (Apr 17, 2004)

My ears were pierced when I was very little. I vaguely remember the experience, so I must have been 4 or 5. It wasn't a big deal, though I suspect that I liked having earrings. I do remember being warned that it would sting, and then feeling them swab my ears, but then there was no sting and it was over.

The big plus was that when I hit my teens and wanted to wear all the different kinds of funky earrings out there (think 80s, think Madonna chic, sigh), I was able to do so because my ear-piercings had been in so long. It was a real advantage over most of my friends who were getting their ears pierced in their teens, and found it to be quite a traumatic experience -- infections, being able to wear only certain kinds of earrings, etc.

Ear piercing isn't a big deal in my culture (chinese). I don't have a girl, so I don't know what I'd do in your situation. If we ever had a girl, I suspect I'd get them pierced when she asked for them. Also, a mom in my local mom's group is Greek, and got her daughter's ears pierced at a year because ear piercings are common in her culture.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Quote:

She was only upset about the "restraint position" I had to hold her in.
Before I ask my question, please know I have no judgement. I would also wait until my DD was old enough to choose for herself, but that's me, and whatever someone else chooses is their business.

I just had to go through some ordeals (which I have spoken about in another thread) with my DD, which entailed her being restrained and have needles and a canula inserted into her arm. Now, this is far from ear piercing, granted. But they had numbing gel on her arm, so technically she shouldn't have felt it. However, the fear from the restraining and people prodding at her and sticking things into her had her fearful and wild. I almost didn't survive the ordeal with my emotional well-being intact. I hated restraining her and doing something to her she didn't understand. I can't stand it when she cries, but these cries were different.

So my question is, how did you get through it emotionally? I so badly wanted the whole process to stop, but she needed the tests and I had to get through it, but if she didn't need to go through it, I would have done anything to stop her anguish. How did you restrain your child to have it done and not mentally crush yourself? As I said, no judgement, just having a hard time understanding, and to be honest, wishing I could steal some of your strength.


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## Bethla (May 29, 2004)

My own mother made me wait until I was eighteen. She thought getting ears pierced degraded ones body. So on my eighteenth birthday I walked over to a piercing shop and got them done.

I don't have an opinion one way or the other. I would lean towards waiting until the child was old to make up their own mind.


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## Poetmama (May 30, 2002)

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Ear piercing is usually a cultural thing in which no one is going to change my mind about piercing this daughter or any future daughters. I can trace my culture's love of earings back to the Olmec people of Mexico (pre-hispanic). My ears were pierced at three weeks old, my dd was three months old. Shame on me? Shame on you who cannot respect another's cultural choices. My dd's earlobes are not attached to her reproductive system (ie: Circumcision). If she doesn't want them in the future, her choice. She doesn't have to wear them. So next time you are thinking your deep, deep ethical thoughts, perhaps you should think about the background of the family you are judging. When we peirced, we used a repitable source, not just some sixteen year old with a cart on a corner.

Really, I hate this topic. You aren't going to change my mind, I'm not going to change yours. When you look at me and my dd, you will just see an evil mom decorating her daughter, I will see a mom carrying on the tradition of her people.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *waterproofmascara*
Geesh... they're just earrings.
In the larger scheme of things, does it really matter if the mom pierced the ears without the permission of a toddler? I mean, if the daughter grows up to hate her mom simply because she pierced her ears without written permission, then that family has more serious problems than just ear piercing.
And are earrings really life altering for a toddler?

My sister and her boyfriend had my niece's ears pierced when she was around two years old. My niece doesn't remember having it done or wearing earrings, but she does remember the trip to the emergency room to have them removed after they got infected.









By itself, having a child's ears pierced is certainly not the end of the world or even that big a deal. The problem is that, at least in my niece's case, having her ears pierced was part of an overall pattern of disrespect. I'm not saying that it's the case for everyone, but it seems to me like a slippery slope. For that reason, as well as several others, I will not get either of my children's ears pierced until/unless they ask for it. At that time, we'll talk about the event and it's consequences, and if they still want to do it we'll find a way.


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## LDSmomma6 (Oct 31, 2003)

In 2002, my daughters (then ages, 7, 5, 6 months) all got their ears' pierced. I even got flamed for it on another board. But, my older girls wanted them done, and I thought it would be cute for the baby. UPDATE to today: The 7 yr old (now 9.5) still wears hers, but she has to wear certain ones. She still leaves the ones in that she got her ears pierced with. We've tried all certain kinds, and her ears would break out awful! Oh, 1 ear, I mean. She had 1 ear that was fine, and the other broke out constantly. It's finally better now. It doesn't break out as much as long as she cleans her ears really well after wearing a different pair, and puts the originals back in. The 5 yr old (now 7) hated them afterwards. But, I made her keep them in for the 6 weeks. I wanted her to be sure since she was the worse one in begging for them. At 6 weeks, we took them out and they have closed up. No bumbs or anything. A very slight slight faint scar, but only if you knew she had earrings to begin with. She is now asking for them again... The 6 month old just turned 3. She hasn't had a problem with them at all, and to this day loves to wear them. I also keep her original ones in (well, they were the 5 yr old earrings), and whenever I tell her she is cute, she shows me her earrings. I don't know why, but it's cute. We all think our children are cute.









Now I have 4th daughter, Lindsey. She needs hers done now. She is 8 months old, and I am thinking sometime soon, like in the next few weeks, to get them done. I was going to have them done a few weeks ago, but the time issue was what stopped me. I had to go pick up kids from school.

I have thought about it before, and even posted about it before. I may have said "If I had to do it over again, would I...not sure or no." But, I have changed my mind. A mom is allowed to change her mind, right?


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NiteNicole*
I have serious issues with the idea of decorating a little girl by poking holes in her and filling them with symbols of wealth.

In the Hindu tradition it goes way beyond this. It has both religious signficance and has Aryuvedic benefits. Even people who are very poor will pierce their children's ears on or around their first birthdays. It's very important to people.

My dd was upset only when they marked her piercing sites with a pen. She didn't even flinch for the actual piercing because they use a special numbing medicine there. The boy who had his done before she did actually slept through his piercing on his mom's shoulder!

BTW my dd's ears were treated with aryuvedic oils and healed quickly with no infections. She has never pulled on them or played with them, and the other day she told me she thought they were pretty.

Darshani


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## UnschoolnMa (Jun 14, 2004)

Dd got her ears done at 2 years or so I think (I cant totally recall) after she had asked for them to be done repeatedly, and after we had shown her what it was all about.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Poetmama*
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Ear piercing is usually a cultural thing in which no one is going to change my mind about piercing this daughter or any future daughters.

Circumcision is also a cultural thing. I'm so glad that some people actually choose to relook their culture in favor of sparing their children pain and/or making unnecessary modifications to their bodies.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

One thing that I found very interesting is that my X actually talked to a piercer about the procedure for piercing my DD's ears, just all for discussions sake. This is a *real* piercer, not the gun salon's in the mall kiosks. He told my X that he cannot legally pierce a minor, even with parents consent, because the child could then come back and sue the piercer once they turned 18. Anyone ever heard of this before? It was the first time for me.


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## Poetmama (May 30, 2002)

To charge that circumsision is akin to ear piercing is ridiculous. Once my ds's foreskin is gone, it's gone forever. If my dd chooses to take her earings out, she just never has to put them back in if she doesn't want them.

I don't judge those whose cultures are different than mine (i.e.: circumcision). I am no more or less superior because my customs are different than yours. I am just different and that is what makes this a wonderful world. I'm not forcing you to pierce your kids and I am not judging you because you don't. So don't judge me and we will get along just fine.

If in twenty or thirty something years my dd chooses not to peirce her daughter, that is fine by me. But she will understand the CULTURAL reasons I pierced her. I sure hope the way I raised her is more important to her than a pair of earings in the long run.


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## Kylix (May 3, 2002)

SpiceyMomma--I'm sorry that you feel attacked but I just don't agree. And you did ask. And really, what did you expect the reaction to be?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Poetmama*
I don't judge those whose cultures are different than mine (i.e.: circumcision). I am no more or less superior because my customs are different than yours. I am just different and that is what makes this a wonderful world. I'm not forcing you to pierce your kids and I am not judging you because you don't. So don't judge me and we will get along just fine.


Yes, but you ARE forcing your child into something having to do with his/her body and only his/her body that he or she hasn't asked for. That's the difference. Why isn't that apparent?

I'll grant you that circumcision is more extreme than piercing but fundamentally they are the same. You are altering your child's body without their consent. What's so hard about allowing your child to choose for him or herself?

I don't "judge' other cultures for their customs that I don't happen to agree with. (although in some cultures, circumcision is done with males who could be said to be of an age to choose for themselves--at puberty for some Muslims I believe) But if I am in a position to look at from a different angle "circumcision being a permanent alteration without consent" then why shouldn't I? When you know better, you do better.

Kylix


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

"The 6 month old just turned 3. She hasn't had a problem with them at all, and to this day loves to wear them. I also keep her original ones in (well, they were the 5 yr old earrings), and whenever I tell her she is cute, she shows me her earrings. I don't know why, but it's cute."

I don't mean to start a fight but am I the only one who sees something wrong with this statement? I asked my husband and he got what I was saying right off the bat just from me reading him that quote. You tell a 3 year old girl she is cute and she points to her earrings. I'm not trying to overanalyze things but it would upset me greatly if my child pointed to an ornament as sign of their cuteness. See I am against little girls being taught that their cuteness is the most important thing about them. Little girls are strong, smart, powerful, funny AND beautiful. Earrings might be fine (I don't agree with that but ****) but they shouldn't be the sole reason the child thinks she is cute. You said you don't know why she does that? I'd wager its because she's been told they were cute so many times that now she thinks that's what's cute about her.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Poetmama*
To charge that circumsision is akin to ear piercing is ridiculous. Once my ds's foreskin is gone, it's gone forever. If my dd chooses to take her earings out, she just never has to put them back in if she doesn't want them.

The end result isn't the point, IMO. It's the unnecessary assault to the child's body and unnecessary risk-taking that goes with it. It sends a message from an early age that their body is not their own and that socially affirmed ornamentation is more important than their own bodily integrity.

I'm not saying that early ear-piercing is going to ruin a little girl, but it's just one more message that her body is not her own. The world is rife with them - why deliver such an unnecessary one yourself? I know. Culture. In my opinion, that's just not a good enough reason.

Quote:

I don't judge those whose cultures are different than mine (i.e.: circumcision). I am no more or less superior because my customs are different than yours. I am just different and that is what makes this a wonderful world.
I'm sure that there are many positive differences between us and I agree that those do, indeed, make the world a more interesting and colorful place. Doing things to your child's body that can't positively be undone and have no purpose aside from decoration is not a positive difference. There's nothing wonderful about it. Sorry, just can't agree with you there.


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## Mamm2 (Apr 19, 2004)

If I ever have a daughter, I would not pierce her ears as a baby/toddler. IMHO, it is an unncessary procedure that carries risks. It is purely minor cosmetic surgery. Besides, as babies, I would be worried it could become a choking hazard.

My mom had my ears pierced and I hate earringings. I wish she would have given me the opportunity to choose.

I would wait until after she is 7 years old. I would make it a reward for something, and make it a special day.


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## iris0110 (Aug 26, 2003)

I had my ears peirced at five. My grandma and great Aunt took me shopping and decided to get it done. I wanted earing like theirs. Then my brother and I were restling and one got pulled out and healed shut so I had to have it done again. I didn't mind and no body made me do it. I used to love wearing different earings every day. When I went to my first day of highschool my parents took me to get my cartlidge peirced. I had wanted it done so badly. It took three years for them to heal properly, but I love them.







I have had a tone of body peircings in my life too, started when i was 15. I also have a bunch of tattoos. My mom asks what I will do when ds asks to get peircings. I said I will take him to have them done if he is old enough to take care of them. If he asked for his ears peirced I would do it now because they are easier to care for, but tatts have to wait until he is 18 because you can't just get rid of them.

I don't see any problem with peircing a babies ears if that is what you want to do. My mom said she didn't do mine because she was worried about infection when I was tiny. I probably wouldn't do it, but if it is something cultural or what ever I would say go for it. It really isn't permanent. If I decided today that I wanted to take my earing out, even after all these years, I could and they would be pretty much gone. There is a big difference between ear peircings and circumcision. But that is just this Mammas opinion.

eta: I like the idea of ear peircings being a comeing of age thing as well. So personally I will probably wait until that time and do it as a special ritual. Like if I have a daughter I will wait till her first menses and take her to get her ears peirced and give her special moonstone earings. Kwim? But that is just my personal thing and I could change my mind at any time. LOL


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

With all the people happily repeating that it "really isn't permanent" I wanted to restate that um, yes, _every piercing carries some risk of complications with permanent results_, and although you can do some things to minimize the risk of those complications, you can't guarantee they're prevented, or predict who they'll happen to.

I certainly wouldn't want to take the risk of my baby's ears developing keloids, hypertrophic scarring, rejection, allergy, nickel reaction, abscess, furuncle, or a torn lobe.


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## Poetmama (May 30, 2002)

I'm tired; the kids have had me going all day. I will try to get to each point, but will probably have to type more tomorrow...

I tend to think that this is a rather minimal choice that I make regarding my dd in the larger context of all the choices in her life with me. I think that the choices I make in raising her to be strong and loved are far more earth shattering than if she has two studs. I've chosen her religion, I've chosen her clothing, and I've chosen what she eats for dinner. Her life is going to be a lot of choices that I as a parent will make. I choose not to let her cry herself to sleep, I've chosen to let her breastfeed as long as she wants, and I've chosen to put her in cloth diapers. Hopefully these choices will make her a better person. But the choice to stud her ears is very small in the long run.

I understand that the hole in my dd's ear is going to be there forever, I also know as someone who doesn't wear my jewelry 24-7, the hole is minimal.

I can also say with experience, as someone who has had holes in her ears as long as I can remember, I have never believed my body wasn't my own. I've never connected the two since my parents didn't raise me to think that way. The two studs in my ears that my parents chose to give me didn't equate bondage and being subservient with me. They were just some jewelry. I also received a ring at two that I still have. My dd was about six weeks old when I bought her a bracelet. Really, I don't see this as a way of keeping her down or sending her the message that she is a "little woman." I don't plan on teaching her that her adornments (or lack there of) are what make her a worthy person.

I'm tired now. Goodnight.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:

Just as if I had had boys and didn't feel I had the right to circumsise them without their consent, I do not feel i have the right to pierce my girls' ears without their consent.
i was going to say this exact same thing.

i left my son intact; i feel i should afford my daughter the same respect.

sure, she would look some degree of cute, but she's already quite lovely ~ she's already _beautiful_ in fact, and perfect just the way she was born.

and ultimately, _she is not my doll._ she is not a toy. she is a little thinking, feeling person, and just because she cannot communicate as efficiently as an adult does not mean i shouldn't afford her as much respect as one.


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## Twindividual (Oct 7, 2004)

I didn't read all of the replies so maybe this has already been brought up but as an adult (30 years old) I so wish I never had my ears pierced. My mom let me do it at age 8. It hurt and now I have these ugly holes in my ears!







I would love to have "virgin ears" perfect and unadulterated. When I see an adult woman with natural ears it looks beautiful to me.

Anna


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## Lady Madonna (Jul 2, 2004)

I first had my ears pierced when I was 5. I didn't take care of the piercings and they became infected, so we removed the earrings and let the holes close. They were re-done when I was 7, then I had second piercings in both ears at 13, a third in my left ear at 18, and a cartilidge piercing in my left ear at 29. Now, I usually only wear earrings in the first piercings. Because I was stupid, I had the cartilige piercing done with a gun at the mall (!) and it never healed right, so I can't wear anything there.

That said, I will not pierce my daughter's ears until she is old enough to understand the choice and take care of them. It's her body, so it's her choice, and one I don't think I have any right to make for her. And I will never, ever let anyone do a piercing on her with one of those guns. And if I had to hold her still to have it done, it wouldn't be happening, period.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

oh yeah, one more thing... if anybody is getting pierced in this home, it's going to be me! (( i've been wanting to re-do my piercings that closed up while i was pregnant, and get some new ones, for months!! ))


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

This must be a truly, HOT HOT HOT topic.

My two cents:
I will not be getting Darlene's ears pierced because of a girl I knew in school. I wanted my ears pierced soooo bad (I was 10), and she was the only other girl in my class w/o pierced ears. The subject came up one day and I asked her how come she didn't have her ears pierced. She didn't want them! I couldn't believe it. She said "My ears are perfect the way they are. I think earrings would be ugly on me."
I got my ears pierced at 11 (followed by a few other piercings through the teen years) and I never have regretted making the choice. I always, always wanted pierced ears (from the time I was 3 is as early as I can remember) but my mom wouldn't let me get them.
I got to make the choice, and my school friend she got to make a choice. Now as a mom, I get to make a choice with when to pierce my daughters ears. I'm going to wait-just in case she is like my school friend and is that 'odd ball' who dosen't WANT pierced ears.
I would never look at another mother though, and tell her she can't make that choice for HER OWN child.

IMO: I think alot of other Mama's came off way too harsh on Spiceymama. WAY TOO HARSH.
If you wouldn't take that tone with a complete stranger on the street who asked you about your opinion, why would you do it online?
Disagreeing and telling someone that their actions were whacked compared to what you chose is fine, its a free world.
BUT: There is a real person on the other end of the pc..I really wish people would keep that in mind. It seems like the 'love' and 'concern' you show for children, would extend up unto the parent who, ALSO is a person with feelings and thoughts... Sorry, hope I didn't make anyone mad.


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## Justice2 (Mar 18, 2003)

My daughter was 7 when she got her ears pierced. I would not have done it as a baby, despite EVERYONE telling me that I should do it.

My dh and I sat in Wal-Mart one day and watched a woman force her screaming 2 yro get her ears done. My soul cried at what that tiny little girl was going through. When they were through, the mom took the little girl to another part of the store. Well, a few minutes later, she came back and the little girl started screaming all over again as soon as they got near the ear piercing seat. That was a completely needless trama. It was my opinion that the clerk who did the piercing should have just told the parents no. That poor little girl.

I think with my next dd (if we are so blessed) that I will wait until she starts her first period. Sorta like a rite of passage.


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## Spicey Momma (Jul 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KatienDwayne*
I would never look at another mother though, and tell her she can't make that choice for HER OWN child.

IMO: I think alot of other Mama's came off way too harsh on Spiceymama. WAY TOO HARSH.
If you wouldn't take that tone with a complete stranger on the street who asked you about your opinion, why would you do it online?
Disagreeing and telling someone that their actions were whacked compared to what you chose is fine, its a free world.
BUT: There is a real person on the other end of the pc..I really wish people would keep that in mind. It seems like the 'love' and 'concern' you show for children, would extend up unto the parent who, ALSO is a person with feelings and thoughts... Sorry, hope I didn't make anyone mad.

I have been quiet on this thread for awhile. Sitting here reading and





















my eyes out. I can't believe some of you are so cruel. So judgemental. I am not perfect, but I truely believe "LET HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN, CAST THE FIRST STONE".

I really though MDC was a loving, "natural" community. Everyone here has been so helpful in the past. But when there's a "HOT" issue noone cares about the momma's feelings on the other end. It's like everyone here is calling me abusive and saying that I have taken away my daughters rights to make her own choices, mutalating her body. That isn't the case at all. But you refuse to see that. Ear peircing is in NO WAY equal to circumcision. AND BTW - to throw a little gasoline on the fire - MY SON IS CIRC'D!!!!! That was done for RELIGOUS reseans, ones that my husband and I both agree upon, and are NONE of your business. So let's no turn this into a circ thread







.


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## Spicey Momma (Jul 24, 2003)

I also wanted to add, thank you to the mommas that haven't been harsh. Thanks to the mommas that have stood up for me. Thanks to the mommas that have said "it's no big deal".


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

SpiceyMomma, I'm just wondering when you started this thread, what were you looking for? You did ask for opinions, and as far as I can tell only a couple posters overstepped the line and did attack your character. There is a report button in the lower left side of the screen where you can report a post to a moderator.

Those that are giving their opinions based on their expirences are in no way attacking you. You asked for opinions, and even made mention to the fact that you are not sure if you did the right thing. You have been here for awhile, it seems like one who has been around the boards would realize that causing any pain to our children, no matter what the end result is, is not going to be accepted.

If you feel strongly in you decision to do this, then debate back about it.


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## MPJJJ (Oct 24, 2003)

Spicy Momma, I don't agree with you at all. You put your little girl through totally unnecessary pain. Did you ever even think about the risks? My Mom pierced my ears when I was a baby, and I got them caught in my blankets one night. Fortunately she rescued me before they tore my earlobe in half. And for some reason, even though I haven't worn them in years, my holes get infected constantly. I am forever having to squeeze very painful pimples out of my lobes, no matter what I use to clean them and prevent infection. I wish, wish, wish my Mom had never pierced my ears. It was NOT her decision to make. What's worse is that as it happened, I peed all down my dad's back. (I was sitting on his shoulders.) Imagine the painful shock that would make a potty trained girl lose control and pee. How horrible. I will never understand why "caring" and "compassionate" mothers choose to put their unsuspecting babies through the pain and risks involved in a cosmetic procedure. They make stickons and clipons for a REASON!!!! Why the hell dont these people use them if they want to make their DDs "cuter"?


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## whimsy (Aug 6, 2004)

I had my ears pierced at age 4 (with a needle, thread, and special red thread from Mexico)

DH pierced Caitlin & Lauren's ears when they were about 2.5

Will probably pierce this new little girls when she is pretty young.

I loved growing up with my pierced ears. It made me feel like I was part of the tribe of women in my family. I remember when I was allowed to get my first pair of hoops (graduating from studs), my first pair that "dangled" etc. Special milestones in my life were usually marked by a special pair. It was something just for the women in our family. Except for when my mom was out of the picture for my high school graduation. My dad went out and bought me birthstone earrings. I have only had them out a few times in the last 15 years. When I am stressed you will see me rubbing the stones for comfort.

Lauren is much like me and loves to wear earrings. Caitlin rarely wears them, but is happy that they are pierced so she can if she wants.


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## matts_mamamama (Mar 19, 2004)

I don't have a daughter, but if I'm blessed enough to have one, my dh and I will decide if and when it is right to have her ears pierced. Since I think that the best parenting is what's best for us and our family, that will be the end of the discussion. I'm sorry to see so many people so judgemental; I mean, for heavens sake, you could compare cutting toenails or hair to ear piercing if you wanted to get so technical! My son never gave me permission to cut his fingernails (which, btw, isn't that cosmetic too?) but I feel no guilt for that! I've said before and I'll say it again - to each her own. Spicey - you made a decision based on your daughter and your own beliefs - don't let anyone make you feel regret for something you feel is right for your family.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Except that fingernails or hair does not cause pain when cut.... And for that matter my DD at the age of 5 has never had a hair cut. Finger nails could be a safety concern, like scratching themselves.


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## fayking (Jun 28, 2004)

matts_mamamama said:


> I mean, for heavens sake, you could compare cutting toenails or hair to ear piercing if you wanted to get so technical! My son never gave me permission to cut his fingernails (which, btw, isn't that cosmetic too?) but I feel no guilt for that! QUOTE]
> 
> come on! unless you went wappy with the cutting you cant compare cutting nails with ear piercing...you can damage your childs ears by piercing, simple as that especially if you use a gun...
> http://encyc.bmezine.com/?Ear_Piercing_Guns


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## party_of_seven (May 10, 2004)

No, you can't compare it to cutting hair or nails....those things are done for HYGINE and they don't carry the risks of infection etc that ear piercing AND circumcision do. Not to mention that cutting hair and nails are painless and they grow back! Sheesh!


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *matts_mamamama*
I don't have a daughter, but if I'm blessed enough to have one, my dh and I will decide if and when it is right to have her ears pierced. Since I think that the best parenting is what's best for us and our family, that will be the end of the discussion. I'm sorry to see so many people so judgemental; I mean, for heavens sake, you could compare cutting toenails or hair to ear piercing if you wanted to get so technical!

Cutting nails is a safety issue and fingernails readily grow back. It also doesn't hurt when done right. Cutting hair - well that's a whole other discussion. Some people (myself included) also believe that it's wrong to cut a child's hair until they're ready for it. But, regardless, it's still not entirely equatable to ear piercing because, again, it does hurt - it's clipping dead cells from the body and it, arguably, makes the hair "healthier" and saves a child from enduring more pain in the form of brushing snarled hair.

I understand that it's a cultural thing. I still think culture is a poor excuse to put a child through pain and alter their bodies unnecessarily, but I can understand that cultural traditions are hard to break out of.

What I really don't get, though, is how this is a "best for me and my family" issue. Seriously - what stock do you and your family have in the piercing status of your daughter's ears. How would it negatively impact your family if they weren't done? I hear that argument in favor of circumcision all the time. IMO, once "best for me and my family" starts altering a child's body, it's no longer a family issue - it's an individual, human rights, bodily intergrity issue for the child.


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## stayinghome (Jul 4, 2002)

*"You tell a 3 year old girl she is cute and she points to her earrings. I'm not trying to overanalyze things but it would upset me greatly if my child pointed to an ornament as sign of their cuteness. See I am against little girls being taught that their cuteness is the most important thing about them. Little girls are strong, smart, powerful, funny AND beautiful. Earrings might be fine (I don't agree with that but ****) but they shouldn't be the sole reason the child thinks she is cute. You said you don't know why she does that? I'd wager its because she's been told they were cute so many times that now she thinks that's what's cute about her."*

Ok i just have to take issue with this. Now HOW IN THE WORLD can you make the assumption that any of these mamas make thier daughters think this is the *most* important thing about them?? None of these mothers have ever said that?!

I teach my daughters that they could do anything- be president, jump off cliffs, be a mother, travel the world... they are athletic and healthy and respect themselves. And, they also know that I think they are the cutest, most darling, lovely girls on this planet! (no offense to any other mothers with adorable girls out there...


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## magnoliablue (Dec 29, 2002)

OH!! NO!!!!!!!!!!! Here they come, I hear the sirens, it's the Crunchy Police, come to take me away to the depths of parenting hell where I must truly belong









My dd has her ears pierced. I did wait until she turned 5, but she had been asking for quite a while prior to that. I made sure she understood the responsibility involved, including cleaning them to ward off infection, taking them out when she sleeps at night,etc. She still has them pierced now at 10, and never had any problems.

I do have issues with getting infant's ears pierced. I think at that point they are too young to comprehend everything involved, including the pain factor and the possibility of infection. Add to that a little one's tendency to put anything they can in their mouths, and that is why I waited.

I am comfortable in my crunchiness, even if my dd's ears are pierced.


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## Cloverlove (Jan 2, 2003)

I personally have no problem with it being done for cultural reasons. I think it is cool that it makes a girl feel part of her tribe and special earings are used to celebrate rites-of-passages. What I lament about my culture is that, well, I have no culture.







I am a pasty white girl and my snobby mother wouldn't let me pierce my ears because she thought it looked "ethnic".







I am ashamed that I was raised with prejudice. I grew up in the city and I loved all the *Spicy Mamas* who offered so much color in my white world. I pieced my own ears when I was 13!

I do have a hard time with it because people think it *looks cute*. It seems wrong to me that an infant or toddler's perfection could be seen any other way. I also can't stand those little headband thing for perfect bald heads. Gender labelling, especially in such young children, is so sad to me. I would also worry about them getting infected or ripped out.

Just my $.02.


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

hey, and anyone wgo wants to argue that nail cutting dosen't hurt, I have to say that you don't have me for a mom! tee hee


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## stayinghome (Jul 4, 2002)

clover love you reminded me of something I had forgotten- I too pierced my own ears (second hole) when I was thirteen... me and a girlfriend did it while watching "dirty dancing." We numbed them up with ice (soooooo felt it though...) used a saftey pin, oh man! I'll take the gun any day.


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## darsmama (Jul 23, 2004)

damn, a lot of people posted since I last updated the page.


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

For Pete's sake it is risky to be on the planet. You could be sleeping in your bed and have the house fall in on you for any number of reasons or step out of your home and be seriously maimed or killed for any number of reasons, etc. however remote. Life is a risk. And yes, cutting fingernails is risky. You can die from a papercut, people. Come on, really. I think it is wonderful that people make decisions for themselves and their children that feel are best for body and soul, but I just don't get why all the slamming and condemning someone for piercing her dd's ears. People make the best decisions they can and sometimes they later regret things and sometimes they don't. That's life. I think it is pretty extreme to say that this child will not think her body is her own if her mother pierces her ears. And certainly the child's personality and later experiences are going to play into how she perceives her mother's decision later in life. I think it is important to think about how the child will feel, how it will affect her, can she handle it etc. No one knows for sure, but surely the mama is in one of the best places to tell. Not considering consequences, thinking of how the child will feel/react, or just not thinking it all is where people go wrong. Not just if they make a decision that is different than mine.


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## LovinMyKids (Aug 3, 2004)

I wouldnt pierce my daughter's ears because I want to let her make the choice when she is older. But I make no judgment on themoms who DO have it done. I just prefer to allow her to decide. What if I went and pierced her ears and she never wanted it?








Spicey Mama!


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## TinyBabyBean (Oct 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *JoAida*
Just my philosophy: I do not do anything to my children's bodies that could be long lasting or permanent unless it is medically necessary.

Add PAINFUL to this and I feel the same way. It is just another painful cosmetic procedure. I think this is why some would compare it to circumcision. However I would say that circumcision is obviously far worse since it involves genitals.


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## girlzmommy00 (May 15, 2003)

My oldest dd has her ears pierced (she's 10 1/2). She got them done when she was almost 6 and at her request. She's always been very mature for her age and understood what getting them pierced meant, with the pain of the procedure and the upkeep after. It hurt but I didn't have to talk her into it or hold her down.

My younger 2 girls are 2 and 5 and do not have their ears pierced. I don't feel that my middle dd, who is 5 now, is ready to take care of them. She also has no interest and has never asked either. My 2 year old...well, she'd never sit for any of that. She'd end up with her nose pierced instead. Just thinking of that situation is making me giggle.

I think that if they are old enough to understand getting them pierced and being able to take care of the holes themselves, then it's up to them. I'm thinking school aged children here or older. Personally, I could never hold my child down to have their ears pierced. It would have to be something that they wanted and understood.

P.S. Out of curiosity, I'd asked their dr what the recommendations are for getting their ears pierced. She said that it shouldn't be done until they are old enough to care for them on their own. She said that the only other time would be on an infant since they aren't able to fight you while you are cleaning their ears, so you could keep them clean. JMO but that just doesn't sound right to me.


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## EFmom (Mar 16, 2002)

My daughter's ears are not my ears. I would not alter them permanently, nor would I deliberately subject her to pain for no good reason whatsoever.


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## Parthenia (Dec 12, 2001)

Spicey,









Quote:


Originally Posted by *whimsy*
I loved growing up with my pierced ears. It made me feel like I was part of the tribe of women in my family. I remember when I was allowed to get my first pair of hoops (graduating from studs), my first pair that "dangled" etc. Special milestones in my life were usually marked by a special pair. It was something just for the women in our family.

I had a very similar experience growing up, too. I had my ears pierced when I was 5. My mom, her sisters, my grandmother, and her sisters all had their ears pierced as babies. It was a cultural tradition. My mother decided not to pierce mine as a baby because she was worried about them getting infected. No one forced me to do it. I wanted to get my ears pierced because I wanted to be like my mom, whom I thought was the most beautiful woman in the world. Not because of her earrings, but because, well, inside and out, she is. I wanted to be like her, and to some extent still do, even though she's not perfect. I remember not enjoying having it done, but loving wearing earrings. I took care of them and they healed just fine. I wear the same gold hoops I've worn for 8 ears because my hair covers my ears, but I have a few keepsake earrings that I wear on special occasions.

I did not have dd's ears pierced because DH felt uncomfortable about it. He wanted dd to make the choice, and he doesn't like the way it looks on infants. She 5 now, has no interest in getting her ears pierced, and doesn't like to wear jewelery in general. I don't see her getting her ears pierced any time soon. I'm glad I waited. I understand and respect dh's feelings about this, and I disagree with him. DD is his daughter, too, and he was strongly against it more than I was strongly for it.

BTW, I was also not allowed to cut my hair until I was 11. Long hair is a "thing" in my family, just like girls, women and earrings. I rebelled for years and wore my hair very short and no earrings.


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## bwylde (Feb 19, 2004)

I will let her get her ears pierced when she is old enough to decide for herself and help care for them. I wish my mom had of (I was an older child when I got mine done and had been asking for years to get my ears pierced; now for years I haven't even worn earrings). I could never pierce a young child's ears.


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Spiceymama- I am sorry you are feeling attacked. It seems to me from your OP that you had a little voice telling you not to do it, but you did it anyway.

I have had that feeling in the past, when I had my first son circ.ed, something inside told me it was wrong, but I ignored that and did it anyway, and now I deeply regret it. (But for quite some time, I defended my "choice" and felt very attacked when anyone disagreed with what I had done) Surely that is much worse than ear piercing, but I just wanted to gently suggest that you listen carefully to that voice in the future.

FTR- I am very much against infant ear piercing (or small toddlers) for bodily respect issues as well as possible medical problems, but I was brought up with my beliefs and could possible have fallen into the OP's situation had I been raised differently, as I sadly did with the circ., before I knew better.


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## mountain (Dec 12, 2001)

I wouldn't pierce my children without their consent. Ever.

That said, I'm off to pinch my kids. I like the way it looks when they have red marks on their skin.














:

Inflicting unnecessary pain on your children is never kind.

It would be nice if we could evolve to treating our children as if they are people with emotions & real souls. I thought we were on our way, but we could always blame it on culture.


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## Poetmama (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain*

That said, I'm off to pinch my kids. I like the way it looks when they have red marks on their skin.














:

It would be nice if we could evolve to treating our children as if they are people with emotions & real souls. I thought we were on our way, but we could always blame it on culture.


Are you saying I because I peirced my dd's ears I am treating her as if she has no real emotions or soul? Are you comparing constant abuse (ie: pinching when ever you feel like it) with an earring? Are you kidding me? I don't like your stance that I am abusive and treating my child like an object. If you really want to understand how I parent, you'll have to actually meet me in person. But I guess it's just easier to judge from the safety of your keyboard.

If you aren't saying that I'd like you to clarify your position. And last time I checked, I wasn't BLAMING my peircing my daughter on culture. I was explaining why I chose to peirce her and why it is predominant in my ethinic background to see peirced girls.

OP-Raise your family how you see fit. In 100 years the only thing that will matter is what kind of people you left to the earth, not the small stuff or what a bunch of people on the internet thought of your choices.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Of course it won't permanently damage a child, unless they are raised by an unhealthy family and/or they are one of the rare ppl whose piercing "goes wrong".

Of course it's important in some tribal and cultural contexts.

Of course it's not child abuse.

The point everyone seems to miss is that you are inflicting totally unnecessary, arbitrary pain on a baby.

I used to tear up when my kids got shots or needed blood drawn. Why would I put a baby in pain for PURELY COSMETIC REASONS? I do everything I can to SAVE my children from physical pain. For me to hold my own baby down so someone could punch holes through her ears...... maybe I'm just more sensitive to my children's pain than other people.

I worked for a ped. who pierced babies' ears so the parents wouldn't take them to the mall to do it. I'd have to prep the stuff and hold the infant down. I can't even tell you how I felt, watching those babies scream in pain for their mother's whim


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

The fact that you had to use a "restraint position" to do something not necessary explains why I would NEVER do it. If they can't ask for the earrings, it's not my place to put them in.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

ITA, Peppermint - it seemed to me in the OP that SM felt conflicted about it in the first place. SM, you made your choice, and it's too late for this kind of debate that's going on in this thread. My advice to you is to just unsubscribe to this thread and think it all over and draw your own conclusions from what has happened. Maybe you'll decide to pierce future children, maybe you won't. Having to defend yourself like this is not helping anything, though.

I don't agree with piercing children's ears before they are old enough to want it and take care of it. But I don't draw conclusions about someone's entire parenting style if they do it. I have to admit, I get a little irritated when I read posts comparing things like ear piercing to child abuse. To me it is demeaning to people who are/have been victims of *real* abuse, it belittles what they have gone through.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd*
I have to admit, I get a little irritated when I read posts comparing things like ear piercing to child abuse. To me it is demeaning to people who are/have been victims of *real* abuse, it belittles what they have gone through.

That is a good point.

Good parenting has SO much more to do with how you treat your children on a day to day basis than with these hot botton dos and don'ts, these minor, minor issues like ear piercing and santa clause and Disney . . .


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## matts_mamamama (Mar 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *party_of_six*
Sheesh!









Wow, the first thing I've agreed with in this thread, practically!







it is!

I think it's funny how permanent you all think earring holes are...I had my ears (GASP) double pierced when I was young and I let the top holes close up...funny, they aren't there anymore....guess my definition of permanent and yours is different.

And just FYI, I think you all that are so judgey are funny. I have a hard time believing that with all of your 'pain for cosmetic reasons' that you would ever allow your children to perform those painful cosmetic "enhancements" even when they did become old enough to decide on their own. How can you feel SO strongly about not wanting to pierce them, but then turn around and say, oh, sure, get every part of your body pierced now that you say you want to? Doesn't jive for me, but hey, as I said, you do what's right for your family and I'll do what I think is right for mine.


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## matts_mamamama (Mar 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
What I really don't get, though, is how this is a "best for me and my family" issue. Seriously - what stock do you and your family have in the piercing status of your daughter's ears. How would it negatively impact your family if they weren't done? I hear that argument in favor of circumcision all the time. IMO, once "best for me and my family" starts altering a child's body, it's no longer a family issue - it's an individual, human rights, bodily intergrity issue for the child.

Well, there you go. The difference between you and me. I think that EVERY SINGLE THING that I do that impacts my family is a "best for me and my family issue". I have no 'stock' in the piercing status of my daughter's ears because I have no daughter; I was speaking hypothetically. But, as far as I'm concerned the only stock is the happiness of me and my family and if that includes piercing ears, then so be it. And I'm guessing if you need to call the human rights police on every person that has their child's ears pierced, you're going to have a busy lifetime ahead of you.

THERE ARE MUCH WORSE THINGS IN THIS WORLD TO BE WORRIED ABOUT THAN LITTLE GIRLS EARS BEING PIERCED!


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

I would never do it until my girls were old enough to ask, take care of it and understand. But at that point I'd let them get their nose pierced if that is what they wanted.

ETA: I don't think it is the end of the world. I've known plenty of babies who've had it done. I just don't agree in causing pain of any sort or forcing/holding/restraining a child for cosmetic reasons.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *matts_mamamama*
I have a hard time believing that with all of your 'pain for cosmetic reasons' that you would ever allow your children to perform those painful cosmetic "enhancements" even when they did become old enough to decide on their own. How can you feel SO strongly about not wanting to pierce them, but then turn around and say, oh, sure, get every part of your body pierced now that you say you want to? Doesn't jive for me, but hey, as I said, you do what's right for your family and I'll do what I think is right for mine.










Sigh... I also have a hard time with people being accused of lying.







: You don't know these mamas, why do you assume to know their minds? I would never decide to pierce a child of mine. I would be OK with my children deciding on their own to get pierced. It's a question of self-determination, to me it's very clear, no contradiction at all.


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *matts_mamamama*
I have a hard time believing that with all of your 'pain for cosmetic reasons' that you would ever allow your children to perform those painful cosmetic "enhancements" even when they did become old enough to decide on their own. How can you feel SO strongly about not wanting to pierce them, but then turn around and say, oh, sure, get every part of your body pierced now that you say you want to? Doesn't jive for me, but hey, as I said, you do what's right for your family and I'll do what I think is right for mine.









I'm not sure what you don't understand. If my child wants to pierce his or her ears, well, they can do what they want with THEIR ears. It's sort of the same concept as circumcision...it's not my body, so it's not my decision. If piercing her ears was the only way to save her from a horrible awful disease, well, I guess as a parent, it would be my job to make sure she was ok. But, if my daughter doesn't ask to have her ears pierced, who am I to decide that is what she has to have done?


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

I don't get the conflict here either- it isn't that I don't beleive in piercing at all. It is that I don't want to hurt THEIR body without THEIR permission and choice. Ownership if you will. They own their bodies, not me. When they get older and choose to than I don't really mind if it makes them happy. They get to choose is all.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *matts_mamamama*
THERE ARE MUCH WORSE THINGS IN THIS WORLD TO BE WORRIED ABOUT THAN LITTLE GIRLS EARS BEING PIERCED!

There are also much worse things in the world to worry about than little boys having their foreskins ripped off. The fact that there are much worse things out there is a lousy excuse, IMO, to not be concerned about something.

When you (the universal "you") pierce your infant daughter's ears, you treat her like property, not an individual person. So, while I don't agree it's abuse (though I do agree with the general sentiment expressed in mountain's post), I do think that it's evidence of a certain parenting mindset - one that says, "I can do what I want to you, because I'm the parent." Even if your daughter doesn't get that message, you're perpetuating it within yourself.

As for permanence, I pierced my ears when I was 12. I didn't wear earrings for close to 10 years and they never closed up. So, permanence varies. Sort of like negative effects from spanking vary. You don't know which one your child will be.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *famousmockngbrd*
I would never decide to pierce a child of mine. I would be OK with my children deciding on their own to get pierced. It's a question of self-determination, to me it's very clear, no contradiction at all.









Yep. Pretty simple, I think.


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## SabrinaJL (Apr 9, 2004)

Nope. Wouldn't do it. I wouldn't want someone putting holes in my body without my consent, I wouldn't do it to my child. I figured when she was old enough to ask for and take care of them, it would be up to her. She is 10 years old now and doesn't want them pierced and says she will never get them done.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

I must say that I cannot follow some of the logic here.









My personal stand is that one's culture should not be used as an excuse for anything morally wrong. If it were right to do so, then we'd all be saying that all American boys should be circumcised, as that is the 'culture'. But we don't. Similarly, if it is wrong to circumcise a boy without his consent, then it is wrong to pierce a girl without hers. That is not to say that piercing is as bad as circumcision, but both are inflicting pain on a child for cosmetic not medical reasons.

As for piercings looking 'cute', I think my babies were born perfect and do not need any alterations to enhance their beauty. Personally, I think that piercings detract from the natural beauty that was given to each and every child.

Regarding being judgemental, I personally judge the acts of circumcision and piercing of babies as morally wrong. If someone posts to ask what people think about making such a choice, then they should not be surprised if people respond honestly. You can judge an act to be wrong without necessarily judging the person.


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## meowee (Jul 8, 2004)

Just make sure you turn the posts regularly. I got sidetracked by a newborn and by the time I looked at my DDs' ears the earlobes had started to grow around the earrings. I could only salvage the holes in one girl and the other girl I had to let them close and sometime they fill with puss even though not infected. Like a pimple. I would have to open them up myself with a needle but she doesn't want me to. Probably she'll want to when she's older.

Also they lose the posts all the time. Screw ons are the best.


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## Spicey Momma (Jul 24, 2003)

Meowee, thanks for the tip


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meowee*
Just make sure you turn the posts regularly. I got sidetracked by a newborn and by the time I looked at my DDs' ears the earlobes had started to grow around the earrings. I could only salvage the holes in one girl and the other girl I had to let them close and sometime they fill with puss even though not infected. Like a pimple. I would have to open them up myself with a needle but she doesn't want me to. Probably she'll want to when she's older.

Also they lose the posts all the time. Screw ons are the best.


Um perfect example why the whole idea of piercing the ears of an infant and young child who cannot take care of the piercings themselves is just messed up. Who would even want to deal with this or worry about it happening?

Hey MOUNTAIN.... You naughty girl, your judging again







Can we go through the whole ordeal again... oh wait just check out my sig!


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## justmandy (Sep 3, 2004)

Spicey, don't stress. I'm sure your dd is precious with her little earings. You probably did her a favor. My mom had my ears pieced when I was a baby and by the time ny friends were getting thiers pierced and had to wear the studs I could wear any earins I wanted. Now I don't have to think about my piercings. I got my doubles when I was 14 and I still have problems with the backs closing and I had 6 others that closed up completely even though I did everything I was supposed to.

She'd probabbly want them anyway, and if not no big deal, she'll just blame her crazy mom for those holes in her ears


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## Parker'smommy (Sep 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spicey Momma*
Everything NFL in me was screaming "WHAT ARE YOU DOING! YOU ARE ABOUT TO PUT *HOLES* IN YOUR DD'S BODY!!!!


You wrote this....so I think you knew already that a lot of mamas were going to disagree with you. I think you knew already that this wasn't going to be accepted with open arms. You asked for opinions from "crunchy moms" what we thought about it.....so I don't understand why you are so upset. Besides, if you are comfortable with the choice you made, you shouldn't feel bad either. No, it isn't abuse imo, but I wouldn't do it either. That's my opinion and my choice and you asked.

So to answer your OT-

I wouldn't do this myself for many reasons but mainly - its not my body, so Im not going to alter it or change it. If my dc wants to do something like this to their body, they can after they acknowledge the pain involved and the care involved and after many discussions about it. I got my ears pierced for my 6th bday after asking for years. I am glad i made the decsion to alter my body and my parents didn't make that decsion for me.


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## Kylix (May 3, 2002)

Wow, I can't believe how strongly ppl are defending their "right" to make permanent alterations to their children's bodies without their consent.

Don't you see your child as an individual with bodily integrity? Don't you see your child as individual with his or her own wants and needs? Why is it hard to wait til your child is of an age when she can stand up and say "yes, I want my ears pierced."

Some things aren't just an issue between me and my family. Your child's body is his or her own and no one else's.

I dont have an issue with ear piercing. I like piercings. I want more myself. But it's something I can choose for myself.

It's the most absurd thing to say that cutting your child's fingernails is the same as piercing their ears. Fingernails grow back. Cutting them doesn't hurt. Holes in your ears are permanent. Even if they appear to have healed. You are crushing tissue and cartilege.

The issue is you are making a decision about your child's bodily integrity without his or her consent. It is unnecessary and not your place.

No, I dont' agree. And I will make no apologies for it. You asked for an opinion and you got it.

I don't want you to feel bad about something you can't change now but I just want to put my opinion out there. Isn't that what you asked for?

Kylix


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## burritomama (Aug 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kylix*
Don't you see your child as an individual with bodily integrity? Don't you see your child as individual with his or her own wants and needs? Why is it hard to wait til your child is of an age when she can stand up and say "yes, I want my ears pierced."...Your child's body is his or her own and no one else's.
...The issue is you are making a decision about your child's bodily integrity without his or her consent. It is unnecessary and not your place. Kylix


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## monkaha (Jan 22, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Poetmama*
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Ear piercing is usually a cultural thing in which no one is going to change my mind about piercing this daughter or any future daughters. I can trace my culture's love of earings back to the Olmec people of Mexico (pre-hispanic). My ears were pierced at three weeks old, my dd was three months old. Shame on me? Shame on you who cannot respect another's cultural choices. My dd's earlobes are not attached to her reproductive system (ie: Circumcision). If she doesn't want them in the future, her choice. She doesn't have to wear them. So next time you are thinking your deep, deep ethical thoughts, perhaps you should think about the background of the family you are judging. When we peirced, we used a repitable source, not just some sixteen year old with a cart on a corner.

Really, I hate this topic. You aren't going to change my mind, I'm not going to change yours. When you look at me and my dd, you will just see an evil mom decorating her daughter, I will see a mom carrying on the tradition of her people.

























You tell 'em, mama!

And another thought: yeah, the gun isn't sterile, but the studs that they pierce you with are.

Spicey-


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Wow.







:

If my sons want pierced ears, they can wait till they're 16. THat's how long I had to wait. I think kids need to make a mature (somewhat







) and informed decision. Also, it does bother me that it can sexualize young children. I teach kindergarten and about 2/3 of the girls have pierced ears. Several wear fingernail polish. And, yes, a few girls also wear makeup! Personal choice, yes. But, for whom?


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkaha*
...
And another thought: yeah, the gun isn't sterile, but the studs that they pierce you with are...

Sure they are. Until you stick them into the non-sterile gun.

As for the OP,
Piercing someone else's body, ANY part, without their consent is not something you'd catch me doing. Sure there are "worse things". But there's always a "worse thing" - and that doesn't make a bad thing any better.


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## happyhippiemama (Apr 1, 2004)

I had dd's ears pierced for her 6-mo bday, on valentine's day. we nursed on my left breast while her left ear got pierced. we maintained eye contact the whole time. she popped off my breast and squealed once when it happened, then buried herself right back into my boob. we hung out and talked with the jeweler for a few minutes, then switched sides. repeated for the right ear.

i don't feel like dd was traumatized by the event. she has never fussed with her ears. i knew that i wouldn't pierce her ears as a young child, or until she was at least 11 or 12, so it was either when she was an infant or a preteen. I choose infant, honestly, so I wouldn't have to deal with her begging me for earrings from ages 4-10.

flame away.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

My oldest DD asked for pierced ears at age 4 and I did it. I did not feel she could fully "consent" but knew based on how she handled vax's and a minor surgery that she had a high pain tolerance. The piercing was done at our ped's office.

DD claimed it did not hurt at all. She did not even flinch. Of course this was a kid who when she had her tonsils out went home and ate four bowels of pasta becasue she "felt fine."


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *happyhippiemama*
I had dd's ears pierced for her 6-mo bday, on valentine's day. we nursed on my left breast while her left ear got pierced. we maintained eye contact the whole time. she popped off my breast and squealed once when it happened, then buried herself right back into my boob. we hung out and talked with the jeweler for a few minutes, then switched sides. repeated for the right ear.

i don't feel like dd was traumatized by the event. she has never fussed with her ears. i knew that i wouldn't pierce her ears as a young child, or until she was at least 11 or 12, so it was either when she was an infant or a preteen. I choose infant, honestly, so I wouldn't have to deal with her begging me for earrings from ages 4-10.

flame away.

Ok I will :LOL This is just wierd. If my child is BEGGING for earrings, I would discuss with her about what it means to pierce ones ears, the care required, the pain etc. If she still wanted to, I would probably set a date. We could mark it on the calendar together. That way it isn't something on the whim, it is something that is thought about over a month or whatever date we choose. I would discuss it with her everyday, go visit a salon a couple times to see real people getting their ears pierced, hopefully be able to catch another small child so she can see their reaction, and also see adults reactions etc.

Yea, it takes more time, but then she would be fully prepared for it. She is 5 now, when she asks me about it, I start the process. *Well, honey, it is a big responsibility. You will need to make sure to keep them very clean. It will hurt when you get them pierced cause they stick a sharp needle in your ear. It will hurt for awhile until after the holes heal.* Usually by this point she says she doesn't want to do it.

It really isn't that hard to communicate and convey thoughts and feelings to our children.


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## Raven67 (Apr 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spicey Momma*







: *sniff* noone agrees with me...........

Well, you did ask for opinions, what did you expect? In my opinion, it is wrong. Why inflict pain on a baby unecessarily, especially so she can look like a "princess"? Yuck! That's my reaction, and I have the same reaction whenever I see babies with earings. I think it objectifies them, and it totally for the parent's amusement. Girls in our culture face enough pressure to suffer in order to be "pretty," there is no need to start when they are infants. So, there ya go, there's an opinon for you.

In regard to agreeing with you, I don't think there is anything wrong with people stating an opinion, even a "harsh" one with an issue like this. Maybe it will make someone else think twice before doing this. I am sure you are a decent person, but I think what you did was wrong, and not "crunchy" at all.

Oh, and in regard to the "cultural tradition" argument? Well, circ is a cultural thing too, and it still doesn't make it right. Lots of "cultural traditions" are obsolete and should be left by the wayside. People pick and choose from their cultural traditions all the time. Sticking with one that inflicts nonconsensual risk and suffering on a helpless baby tells you something about the individual momma, not the culture. Pick another way to express your heritage. I will never "respect" it.


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## Annalisasmom (Jul 9, 2004)

DD's ears are not pierced and everyone questions me why, family, friends and strangers. I'm not against piercing ears however I want to make a day of it when she is older.

My mom died when I was 8 and one of the few memories I have is when I was 6 she took me to the mall and we spent the day shopping and getting my ears pierced. She bought me a beautiful pair of earing that I still have. then we went out for lunch. It is a great memory and I hope to do the same with my daughter


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## mermommy (Aug 16, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Poetmama*
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Ear piercing is usually a cultural thing in which no one is going to change my mind about piercing this daughter or any future daughters. I can trace my culture's love of earings back to the Olmec people of Mexico (pre-hispanic). My ears were pierced at three weeks old, my dd was three months old. Shame on me? Shame on you who cannot respect another's cultural choices. My dd's earlobes are not attached to her reproductive system (ie: Circumcision). If she doesn't want them in the future, her choice. She doesn't have to wear them. So next time you are thinking your deep, deep ethical thoughts, perhaps you should think about the background of the family you are judging. When we peirced, we used a repitable source, not just some sixteen year old with a cart on a corner.

Really, I hate this topic. You aren't going to change my mind, I'm not going to change yours. When you look at me and my dd, you will just see an evil mom decorating her daughter, I will see a mom carrying on the tradition of her people.

I , personally, think that babies souldn't be pierced but there is a huge difference between the act being a part of a cultural heritage and doing it just because the mother thinks it's cute. I know in my previous post it didn't sound that way. When I see a baby with earrings I don't assume to know the mother's motivations - I'm not going to confront her for having it done. I'm not going to tell the baby that the earrings are bad.

If someone asks should they do it I'll say no - If they come looking for validation that what they did was right I'll say it wasn't - that's what I believe. The OP came here and said she did it because she wanted to - she thought it was cute. I think this is wrong.

Side note: While I see the logic used to make the argument - I do not think that ear piercing is on the same level as Circ.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *monkaha*
And another thought: yeah, the gun isn't sterile, but the studs that they pierce you with are.

If you think that makes a difference, I'd like to suggest that you research this a little more thoroughly.


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## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

I haven't seen anyone suggest, in this thread, that it's wrong to pierce a child's ears when the child asks. The argument is over non-consensual piercing, not the general piercing of a child's ears. I've seen a few posters who seem to think that they will be taken to task for complying with their child's request, but nobody here has spoken out against that. If I'm wrong here, by all means let me know.

And to throw in my two cents, I'm in the camp that believes a parent has no right to make that decision for a child. The argument that "there are worse things" is fallacious and can be used in an attempt to justify a broad range of behaviors that, while deplorable, are not the absolute pinnacle of child abuse. It's right up there with the logic that "My parents did (unwise parenting decision) to me and I'm just fine, so (unwise parenting decision) must be a good choice."


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## Spicey Momma (Jul 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Raven67*
Why inflict pain on a baby unecessarily, especially so she can look like a "princess"? Yuck!


My daughter IS a princess!







Maybe I am more mainstream than I think? I BF, CO-sleep, babywear, CD, selective vax, and I do my best to AP. However my decision to peirce my princess was the right one for me. I stand behind my decision now. I can't believe how rude some of you are. If you asked my opinion about something that I disagreed with, I would be tactful in my response. WHY??? Because I care about other peoples feelings. But I guess there are very few people that feel that way


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riotkrrn*
The argument that "there are worse things" is fallacious and can be used in an attempt to justify a broad range of behaviors that, while deplorable, are not the absolute pinnacle of child abuse.

Saying that ear piercing your infant is not the "absolute pinnacle of child abuse" is insulting to people who have suffered real abuse - been burned with cigs, called a worthless piece of sh*t, etc.

You can not like something (I'm not a big fan of peirced ears on babes) and state your opinion without making fallacious comparisons -to genital mutilation, to child abuse etc.

(BTW, I don't mean to pick on the quoted post - a lot of posts said the same thing).

And I don't know why "stating an opinion" is justification for harsh posts; they are two different things. Have we lost all civility? Can't we discuss and disagree without














: Tough love doesn't work - you aren't going to shake a mother into seeing things your way with stident, harsh words.


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## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*
Saying that ear piercing your infant is not the "absolute pinnacle of child abuse" is insulting to people who have suffered real abuse - been burned with cigs, called a worthless piece of sh*t, etc.

How is that insulting? I don't follow your logic. I was not stating that non-consensual ear piercing is akin to greater forms of abuse; my point was that just because something is a lesser evil does not excuse it. To use another analogy, the act of pinching my toddler is not rendered harmless by the fact that other parents are burning their toddlers with cigarettes. The latter is not discounted or trivialized by the fact that the former is also unacceptable, but the fact remains that they are both on a continuum of actions that deliberately cause pain to children.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *riotkrrn*
How is that insulting? I don't follow your logic.

Because such anologies trivalize the pain of someone who was truely abused - someone who had parents who took out thier anger by punching and burning and screaming insults at their children.

Like if your child died of cancer and someone said to you "I sorta know how hard it is - my cat died of cancer last year."

Ear peircing a babe is not child abuse. You might not like it ideologically (I don't), but it isn't child abuse.


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## justmandy (Sep 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spicey Momma*
Maybe I am more mainstream than I think? I BF, CO-sleep, babywear, CD, selective vax, and I do my best to AP. However my decision to peirce my princess was the right one for me. I stand behind my decision now. I can't believe how rude some of you are. If you asked my opinion about something that I disagreed with, I would be tactful in my response. WHY??? Because I care about other peoples feelings. But I guess there are very few people that feel that way









Don't measure yourself against anyone else's proverbial yard stick. I am moderately crunchy, way more mainstream than my crunchy friends and way more crunchy than my mainstream friends. Everyone accepts my choices and knows that my choices are just that. They know I made informed decisions based on what was right for my family in those circumstances.

Shame on all you "I dont judge, BUT..." people. This is a place for a community of mama's to encourage each other and spur eachother on. To many people this is the only place they can come to find that. You have every right to you oppinion and to share it, but don't be harsh to another mama who is here to find refuge and resourses they are unlikely to get anywhere else.


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## SabrinaJL (Apr 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spicey Momma*
However my decision to peirce my princess was the right one for me. I stand behind my decision now.

If you're so sure it's the right decision and you stand behind it, why even bother asking people for their opinions?









I don't have a problem with getting a kids ears pierced when they are old enough to want to do it. But to me piercing an infants ears is no different than say, you and your DH getting drunk one night and while you are passed out your DH decides you'd look great with a navel/eyebrow/nose/whatever ring and goes ahead and does it while you are unable to say yes or no. Not cool.

I don't feel that it's abuse but I certainly don't feel it's respectful of your child at all.


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## polka hop (Dec 23, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*
Because such anologies trivalize the pain of someone who was truely abused - someone who had parents who took out thier anger by punching and burning and screaming insults at their children.

Like if your child died of cancer and someone said to you "I sorta know how hard it is - my cat died of cancer last year."

Ear peircing a babe is not child abuse. You might not like it ideologically (I don't), but it isn't child abuse.

Whether it is or is not child abuse is not the issue at hand here. Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my first post; I do not believe that non-consensual ear piercing is child abuse. My argument was that just because children are being subjected to actual, horrifying child abuse does not make it ok to commit lesser acts that still intentionally cause pain. I hope that clears up what may just be a misconception of my intent.

FWIW, I lost my eldest daughter and have never felt that a friend who lost a beloved pet had no right to say they knew grief, just because it was less catastrophic than the loss of a child.


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## bobica (May 31, 2004)

not that another 2cents needs to be added here, but dh & i decided that dd would stay as we made her (except for haircuts) for the early years. The ear piercing will be her decision when she is old enough to accept all responsibility for them (in our family, it's usually "double digits" ). I think spicey is like a lot of other mamas who are part crunchy & part not & made a decision based on her definition of what makes a baby cute. I know that there are really strong opinions here & appreciate a good debate any day, but the venom and anger about this seems out of proportion to the issue.


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## burritomama (Aug 26, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spicey Momma*
My daughter IS a princess!

















T I've always wanted to ask, what IS it with the princess
stuff?

Now I KNOW I overthink things (it's the English major in me), but I've wondered about that particular role model for girls and what it suggests. Now it could be that my background (more cultural and class baggage here perhaps) just didn't offer the princess option to girls like me...perhaps this is another thread...


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## Spicey Momma (Jul 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bobica*
I know that there are really strong opinions here & appreciate a good debate any day, but the venom and anger about this seems out of proportion to the issue.


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## Spicey Momma (Jul 24, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *burritomama*







T I've always wanted to ask, what IS it with the princess
stuff?

Now I KNOW I overthink things (it's the English major in me), but I've wondered about that particular role model for girls and what it suggests. Now it could be that my background (more cultural and class baggage here perhaps) just didn't offer the princess option to girls like me...perhaps this is another thread...


For me, Taylor is a princess for the following reasons:

1. DH is the oldest of 7 boys, his mother never had a daughter.
2. DS was born first, so I thought I would never have a daughter either.
3. My DH and DS are wild, heathen, wildabeast (and I say this in the MOST







way possible!!!) They run, yell, "play" fight, fish, and do all things Male!
4. For years I felt I would be the only woman in our home. When I found out I was having a DD I wanted her to know all the special things about being a girl. I really am blessed, because she is soooooo girly! She loves to get dress, pick out shoes and diapers. She loves to pretend w/ makeup and carry a purse. It's enough to make me cry. Finally there is some balance in my home. And that is why my DD is a









However, for years my DS have been called "king of the castle" :LOL


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

delete double post, sorry


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bobica*
\ I know that there are really strong opinions here & appreciate a good debate any day, but the venom and anger about this seems out of proportion to the issue.


I'm wondering why. Maybe because for many of us this seems such a clear-cut issue that it is easy and nice to get on a high horse for once (so many parenting issues are anything but clear-cut)?

Just weird. Santa threads are another that turn mean quickly, all out of proportion with the issue at hand . . .


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

I agree that opinions are just fine and if yours makes me think about mine, then that's a good thing. It's the vitriol we could do without. That just brings my bile up and then I can certainly not think.

Congratulations on your little princess, Spicey Momma!

Burritomama, I'm with Frances Hodgson Burrett (sp?) on the princess thing. Every little girl is one.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:

Santa threads are another that turn mean quickly,
Yeah, isn't it funny.







I mean, sorta, in a way








D*mn, where's that AP checklist? I think we fall off at Christmas time.


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## Seasons (Jun 10, 2004)

_Princess discussion deleted and moved to its own thread per Burritomama._


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## burritomama (Aug 26, 2002)

PSSST: princess discussion now continuing in its own thread in Parenting Issues.

Carry on.


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## party_of_seven (May 10, 2004)

Well, I took the advice here and read up on the whole piercing gun/ mall kiosk thing and all I can say is uke

I hope that everyone else will read up on it as well. My oldest had hers pierced at her request about 2 months ago...at the mall. uke I never thought much about it. I have had mine done there twice with never a problem. None of my friends or family has ever had a problem either, but none of my kids will ever be pierced by "the gun" uke

My 3yo is dying for hers to be done, but I already told her that she needs to wait until she is older so she can be better understand what's involved. When its time we will be going to a licensed piercing studio and having it done with a disposable piercing needle. (yes, its legal in my state for parents to consent for children to be pierced at a tattoo/piercing studio...I already checked that out!)

Yikes people...do some reading!

"Ban the gun!!!"

uke


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meowee*
sometime they fill with puss even though not infected. Like a pimple. I would have to open them up myself with a needle but she doesn't want me to. Probably she'll want to when she's older.

Meowee, look up my last post and click the link for "hypertrophic scarring". This is not something it's wise to just basically ignore. You need to have, at the very least, a licensed, experienced, *proper* piercer take a look at it, and if you really must leave the hole there, you need to replace the stud with some good-quality piercing jewelry so the scarring can heal up properly.

I agree with Wemoon that this is a PERFECT example of why it's not wise to pierce tiny ones for your own pleasure.


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## annh (Sep 25, 2004)

Ok being new here, and really not considering myself "crunchy" at all. ( I dont even think i know what that means, LOL)
My daughter will be 3 very soon and all the baby girls in my family have always had their ears done as a baby. My daughter did not and she will not until she can go and get it done herself.
I do not want her having her ears done so that when she is 14 she can just skip the ears and go straight to the belly button or tongue. I want her to feel the pain of having her ears done (while i hope it hurts horribly, lol) and REMEMBER IT so that she will not think of getting anything else done.








Just my freaky way of looking at it i guess, :LOL


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

WRT Culture- I was raised to beleive that peircing my daughter's ear was the only thing to do, by the time she is 3 months old at the latest.

Culture is an interesting thing. I embrace my varied culture. But don't "shame on me" for not embracing something I find morally wrong about my culture. Circumcision is a cultural tradition, and many stand up against the continuing of it, even in the name of culture. I don't find ear piercing as damaging or as permanent. I'm not removing part of her body- I realize it isn't a perfect analogy. But IMO culture is no excuse *IF* you believe it is morally wrong.
That said, I won't push my morals on you- I just really disliked the "shame on you" comment if I decide to state that I find it morally wrong. *I* do not think culture is a valid reason to continue doing something I find wrong. No shame on me for that, none at all.


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

I got my ears pierced for my 8th birthday. I did take care of them reasonably well for a while but then I guess I forgot because at one point the skin started growing over one of my earrings. Fortunately there were no long lasting side effects. My ears do tend to be tender especially after wearing certain kinds of earrings and really I rarely wear them. I do still have holes though despite going years without anything in them. My DH had one hole pierced when he was in a very young teen and we tried it out one day after years of him not wearing anything in it and were able to get a stud in no problem so for many people it is permanent. My younger sister was allowed to have hers pierced when she was about six. I don't know if she and my mom had agreed that she'd take care of them but she did not. They became infected numberous times and eventually they took them out and they did close up. She did eventually have them repierced.

For my DD I will not be piercing her ears until she can ask for it and I feel she is responsible enough to care for them. I can't put an age to it at this point but I know that two is not it. I'm just not going to make any changes to her body or cause her pain with no purpose.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

I had a question here in the first few pages that I guess is lost now in the novel of a response. I think it is harsh to pierce belly buttons, noses or ears on a child, BUT...

ITA that opinions need not be so harsh. Another thing is that when you give an opinion, particularly when it is asked for - IT IS NOT JUDGEMENT OF A PERSON UNLESS IT IS STATED. To say "I think that is disgusting" for example is NOT saying "I think YOU are disgusting". I would like to know where this term judgement is coming from, it is thrown around a lot. It may be judgement of an action, yes. But until one is free of judgement, one cannot call out someone else for judgement.

Just stick to the point.


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## nikirj (Oct 1, 2002)

You do know that infection can happen even if the ears are properly cared for, right? I've noticed some of you saying 'she didn't take care of it, it got infected...' and things of that nature, but this isn't necessarily all there is to it. I got second holes put in when I was 18 (an attempt to remedy the ugly way the childhood ones 'grew in') and cared for them 'religiously' and 100% properly, but they became horridly infected, draining large amounts of fluid and so sore that I couldn't even move my head without them throbbing like mad. I actually had to take medication for it - and even as a teenager, I was aware that you don't want to take medication you can avoid, so it was the only medication I took in a 4-year span (from 16-20). It was horrid. I can't imagine visiting that on a child for nothing better than aesthetics. Remember, I cared for them properly - so this doesn't insure proper healing. Eventually I lasted it out. I still have those holes and although they did remedy the imbalanced look to my ears, I simply choose not to wear earrings at all now (even though both sets of holes are quite visible).


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## girlndocs (Mar 12, 2004)

I was at WIC today & there was a tiny baby there with its ears pierced, and the thought occurred to me:

_When someone places a hole in a newborn-sized earlobe, how can they be sure it will end up in the "right" place on an adult-sized earlobe?_

Nikirj, is that the kind of thing you were talking about with your own piercings?


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## mountain (Dec 12, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wemoon*
Hey MOUNTAIN.... You naughty girl, your judging again







Can we go through the whole ordeal again... oh wait just check out my sig!

Whew...what a relief that it's already out there! Now will you follow me around the boards, posting right after every thread I post on? Just so people don't think I'm judgemental for judging the judgementalism of the judgtificationalistic judgement. I would hate to be misinterpreted, or worse yet, judged.

I love that Bible thing people try to throw at you, where let he who is without sin, whatever...it's always the last resort when your logic is not thought out. It says, "no one say anything that I don't like" --which is, of course, the beginning of saying "I refuse to consider other opinions---you're judgemental"

Poetmama, if you're still seething out there somewhere,
someday, I hope that you will find your peace.

I'm off to bleach my infants hair blonde. Sure the chemicals burn her, but they'll go away. Maybe I'll nurse her while I do it. Yeah, that's it. She looks like such a princess that way.

...stirring the pot....cackle cackle cackle


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

: I'll follow you and judge you on every post, k?

See, I just don't get this thread really. The OP asked for opinions, and all of us participating gave opinions. Why would one ask for opinions if they really arn't wanted? honestly see no venom and anger here. I see people that have a hard core belief system to why or why they wouldn't do this. It isn't as simple as like painting your kids' fingernails, it is a permanent body alteration (even if they do close in, there are still scars, I have 3 scars in my ears, one on my lip and two on my belly button. If I took out my nose piercing there would be a scar later on). It is a known fact that shoving needles through a persons body causes pain. People have strong feelings about pain.

So either people need to grow their skin a little thicker and join in on the debate, or keep their thin skin and just walk away. Simple as that.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Please let us keep the venom and hostility out of our posts. This is a heated issue. Respecting one another's opinions is essential to getting one's point across.


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

No, it's not that simple. There other options beyond getting thick skin or walking away. I'll throw another one out there besides the "judge not, lest ye be judged", or "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." It's all a little skewed anyway, but what about "You catch more bees with honey than with vinegar?"

I'm not sure why you are not seeing venom or anger, but it is blatantly here and I think that there better ways of expressing opinions and relating to each other.

I don't get my girls' ears pierced as babies, but I chose not to go into that, because this mom had already done it, obviously was of two minds about it, and was asking if other "crunchy" moms had their dds ears pierced. I chose to answer that. She has plenty of time to decide what she will do next time. She doesn't even have another girl at this point. If you'd like her to reconsider what she will do next time I think you'd get a lot further with "I" statements and facts, kwim? (and of course many people have done just that, I'm just talking to the ones who've been rather rude and mean)


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## kaimama (Jul 21, 2003)

I have two dds, I did not and would not have their ears pierced until they asked for it and understood the consequences. My oldest started asking at about 7 and for her 8th birthday I took her to get them pierced and we made a date out of it. I hope she'll look back on it fondly when she's older, it was a big deal for me.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Like some others, I see strong feelings here but do not interpret it as venom.

What interests me is what would happen if someone posted on gentle discipline and talked of inflicting pain on their child via spanking, maybe because culturally they think it right.

Actually, I know what would happen, it would be against the mdc rules. I've seen posts where poeple are reminded of this and told to refrain from doing so.

If putting a needle in your child's body causes pain, I cannot help but see a contradiction when told that here we should not judge the act of piercing an infant as being wrong, but should instead appreciate and respect other people's point of view.

If we are to appreciate the point of view that sticking needles in children for cosmetic purposes is valid, then surely so is spanking? Or is it OK to just spank a child once, to make them 'mind' you? Or actually, twice, equal to once for each ear?

I am honestly asking this question from sheer confusion about mdc values. I do not see how anyone can expect to come here and get support for hurting a child. There seems to be an enormous double standard here.


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

Britishmum,

Ear piercing is not the same thing as circumcision or the same thing as spanking. To compare really muddies up the waters. Okay that is one point.

Another point. Just me personally, but I am not defending causing infant's pain. I am advocating telling this mom what you (general you) think in a way that does not bruise her. It is not as simple as saying "We do not value causing infant's pain." There is more to it than that. We do all kinds of things to cause our infants pain, but we feel we have good reasons for them. If you disagree with this mother's reason for causing her infant pain then I think an a moderated response is in order, which again, personally, I feel yours was.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sofiamomma*
Ear piercing is not the same thing as circumcision or the same thing as spanking. To compare really muddies up the waters. Okay that is one point.

That really depends on who you are. To me, they are all acts of the same kind, though perhaps at a different point on the continuum. They all disrespect a child's body, they all treat a child as property.

Quote:

I am advocating telling this mom what you (general you) think in a way that does not bruise her.
I'm going to respectfully suggest that there is likely not a way to tell the mothers on this thread who advocate piercing their infant daughters' ears that you disagree with their actions without bruising them.

(How's that for a run-on sentence?)


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## burritomama (Aug 26, 2002)

slight OT:

Dragonfly, that is NOT a run-on sentence (English major talking here). It is whole. Long ,yes, run-on, no.


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sofiamomma*
We do all kinds of things to cause our infants pain, but we feel we have good reasons for them.


WHAT????? Who does all kinds of things to cause their infants pain???? This is just too much. Never thought I would see the day where this was posted on MDC?


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

I've done lots of things to torture my poor infant, though of course they were all with very good reason. He had four surgeries by 13 months and therefore was tortured numerous times with blood testing, being taken away from me, getting IVs started, being examined, etc. Many, many times we looked in his mouth when he didn't want us to. Sometimes I laid him down so I could pee or pump, which he didn't like. I bathed him, which he always hated. I clipped his fingernails a couple of times while he was awake (once I even clipped his skin accidentally) before I figured out to do it when he was asleep. Hmm... There was lots of stuff. Looking at things on his body that he didn't want me to look at like in his ears - ooh! cleaning his ears... What else? Tons of stuff. Not sure that constitutes abuse.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

annakiss, don't forget nasal aspiration and nebulizers.


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## Colorful~Mama (Feb 20, 2003)

my dd is 4 and i thought for sure she'd want pierced ears but she says 'it looks like it hurts. i think i'll wait til i'm older"








her teenage sister has two holes in each ear (first holes done at age 4 by a gramma who didn't listen to me, second holes for her 12th bday for her request). And i have four holes in one ear, and one hole in the other.
Even dads ears are both pierced tho he no longer wears earrings.

but nope. she's got a mind of her own and says 'no thank you' when someone (usually gramma or well meaning friend) asks.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*

I'm going to respectfully suggest that there is likely not a way to tell the mothers on this thread who advocate piercing their infant daughters' ears that you disagree with their actions without bruising them.



But lots of posts did just that, or at least attempted it. Early on, before the harsh posts, the OP did note that no one agreed with her, but she wasn't defensive or sullen. If the conversation had continued like that, than piecers may have learned something (and those of us who wouldn't pierce might have come to understand why those who do do - which would help us convince others who might not to).

But instead came the self-rightous, make an extreme anaology (i.e. piercing ears is like periodically lpinching your child periodically because you like the designs the bruises make . . .). And then no one was even listening - everyone had choosen sides and was just rooting thier team on (my side is the "everyone is being mean side" BTW







).


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

"Ear piercing is not the same thing as circumcision or the same thing as spanking. To compare really muddies up the waters."

I don't think my comments were remotely muddying the waters. And nobody addressed my point. Which was, that if we here on mdc do not accept causing an infant pain through spanking for reasons of thinking it is for discipline, then how can we have a double standard and be asked to be respectful of the choice to stick pins in a child's ears for cosmetic purposes?

That is not saying that spanking = piercing = circumcision _but the principle is the same_.

We cannot say that in one context it is unacceptable to harm children, but in another, it's fine. And the double standard seems to me to be even more extreme as the argument for piercing is often the 'cuteness' factor. There is often not even an argument - which I personally still dont accept as valid - of culture or supposed health or discipline. Simply cuteness, which was the reasoning of the OP.

So, is cuteness acceptable as a reason for harming a child, but discipline not?

I just do not get it, nor do I feel that I am at MDC when people think that they can post a question like this and get strokes and support. Nor wehn so many people give that support.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum*
That is not saying that spanking = piercing = circumcision _but the principle is the same_.

So, is cuteness acceptable as a reason for harming a child, but discipline not?

I just do not get it, nor do I feel that I am at MDC when people think that they can post a question like this and get strokes and support. Nor wehn so many people give that support.










When people start objecting to things "on principle," something small (and usually petty) is sure to follow









Here's a difference - most reasonable people would not spank themselves or hit themselves (doing so is actually a mental illness), yet many reasonable people pierce their ears.

Now I am not a fan of piercing babes, BUT it isn't "like" spanking (not even in principle).

And it would be nice to discuss it ideologically without the intentionally inflamatory mis-anologies.

The amazing thing about a DISCUSSION board is that not everyone is going to think like you. The pierce-the-baby set found this out as did the non-pierce-the-baby set. This issue disqualifies none of us from being loving attached parents, however. Nor does it disqualify any of us from belonging at MDC. It is a minor issue.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

"Here's a difference - most reasonable people would not spank themselves or hit themselves (doing so is actually a mental illness), yet many reasonable people pierce their ears."

But many reasonable people do not. And a baby does not have the choice.

"it isn't "like" spanking (not even in principle)."

I believe that we should hold principles in our parenting. For example, not hurting children. And spanking hurts. Circumcision hurts. Piercing hurts. So they _are_ similar. They all inflict pain. Different degrees of pain, different reasons for inflicting it, but pain nonetheless. Inflicted on someone else's body for no medical reason, without their consent. How can there be no similarity?

I am fully aware that this is a discussion board. I come here to discuss. But I do not come here to discuss the merits of circumcision nor do I come here to discuss the merits of spanking. In fact, I do not come her to discuss the merits of inflicting pain on children or altering their bodies without their consent.

And there is a clear double standard here. I dont see these things as 'mis-analogies' and certainly not intentionally so. What I see as an analogy, clearly some others do not, but that does not make it intentionally inflamatory.

I did not say anywhere that anyone who pierces their child is therefore not a loving parent. Nor that they are then disqualified from MDC.

But personally, I think that support for the subject of inflicting pain for cosmetic reasons should be as taboo here as is the subject of spanking. I am fully aware that there are members here who agree with circumcision, but they do not espouse that on the boards. There are also some occasionally who espouse spanking, but quickly they are silenced.

Yet we are here talking of sticking needles in babies to make them look 'cuter' and to object is seen as 'venomous'. Yet if someone asks about something like time out in discipline, they would get a string of replies about how wrong it was.

It makes no sense to me at all, and it does not feel like MDC to me.

I see nothing wrong in having principles, like not intentionally harming children to any degree. If that is seen as inflamatory by some people, then so be it. I will personally speak out (politely) against harming children when a discussion is taking place, and the OP asked for opinions.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

i came back and saw this, on page 4... _If you wouldn't take that tone with a complete stranger on the street who asked you about your opinion, why would you do it online?_

maybe YOU wouldn't, but *I* would.

i personally hold the belief that WE DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO ALTER OUR CHILD'S BODY IN ANY WAY. and if someone were to come up to me in person and ask me my opinion on their very young daughter's ear piercing i would tell them that, in those words. IT IS NOT YOUR CHOICE TO MAKE.

HOW are we supposed to teach our baby girls to love, respect, and honor their own bodies, and to honor the fact that they have power over their own bodies and their own choices, if we take the liberty to force our will on their body when they cannot give their consent??

_I still think culture is a poor excuse to put a child through pain and alter their bodies unnecessarily_

ITA.

for those who defend culture as an acceptable reason to pierce their child's ears (or circumcise their boys for that matter): do you also believe in female circumcision? or lip stretching?

i don't believe that it is right to mutilate a child's body, regardless of cultural context. if they are old enough to give consent, than that is their CHOICE, but until they can give that consent, NOTHING should be done to them!


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

"It was a real struggle too"

"DO IT!! DO IT!!"

"upset by the restraint position I had to hold her in"

If these things were not said, or had been put across in a different manner, I would not have been as upset by the OP. Having just been through an ordeal that required me to restrain and inject my daughter for health reasons, and feeling how terrible the situation is to go through, I was saddened that people were choosing to go through this for beauty.

To the OP - I know you were looking for reassurance, and if you were standing by me I would give you a hug and tell you what I thought and ask you how you got the strength, and then tell you everything will be ok.

To the angry - I understand, I felt the same.

To the defenders - good for you for helping the OP, she needed it.

To MDC - I too think this is a little against what you stand for, as piercing and tatooing of any nature on children (noses, ears, labia, penises, eyebrows) is not as crunchy as it is soggy.

Crunchy, now where did that come from?


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

Calm~ I like you. I really like you.
Peace to you Mama.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Oh, thanks Charmarty. I remember you, from another "place", and you are lovely and always supportive. So, peace right back at you - always.

BTW - I love your sig!


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

AnnaKiss, I'm having a real hard time telling the tone of your post, I'm assuming it is in response to what I wrote about inflicting pain on infants. All I can think to do is give you a







Obviously medical and cosmetic are two totally different things.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

wemoon, the tone was intended to be blunt, not mean or sarcastic, perhaps a bit incredulous, and I'm not taking sides in this debate. I'm merely pointing out the million and a half instances where I inflicted pain on my son, some of it medically necessary, some of it more for my insatiable urge to make him clean. I am being light-hearted, not trying to be mean or sarcastic, as I said. Thanks for the hugs.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

annakiss I just do not relate to your energy in this thread.

Like Calm, I was devestated watching my son go through medical procedures. What would I have given to spare him even the mildly painful one's? ANYTHING! I would have done it to myself, sold our home, anything if he didn't have to be "held in a restraining position" as the OP described it, while painful things were done to him.

I refuse to relate my feeling of total helpless agony, to a conscious choice like the OP made for her child to experience pain.

I am having a hard time understanding how you feel they relate.

I feel like it trivializes how much I DID NOT want it done, to say all childhood pain reflects the same on the parent.


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## BelovedBird (Apr 5, 2002)

THis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sofiamomma
We do all kinds of things to cause our infants pain, but we feel we have good reasons for them.
and then this:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wemoon*
WHAT????? Who does all kinds of things to cause their infants pain???? This is just too much. Never thought I would see the day where this was posted on MDC?

was what annakiss was replying to, heartmama.

I added two things to annakiss's response because I think wemoon's response was WAY over dramatic and not based in reality.
Everyone does something that causes their infant at least discomfort, even if they NEVER vax, circ, ear pierce or other elective things. I know my baby's screamed and thrashed when I tried to asperate their noses even though before the asperation they were unable to nurse and kept waking up crying because they could not breathe. At the very least, we birth them, which *cannot* be too pleasant an experience.
Not to mention children who have ever had health issues or hospital visits.

I disagree with earpeircing infants but I also disagree that any child can get through life with no pain and that if the parent ever lets their infant experiance pain they don't belong here.


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## happyhippiemama (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wemoon*
Ok I will :LOL
It really isn't that hard to communicate and convey thoughts and feelings to our children.

Aw crap. Wemoon, it's a shame I like and respect you so much, because you always just rip that rug right out from under me. :LOL

I'm not continuing this little bit, mostly bc the princess tangent is so intriguing, I can't focus on earrings.









crystal


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Beloved Bird there is such a vast difference between inflicting pain by choice, and enduring pain that happens without the parent having a choice.

I can't imagine piercing a baby for any reason, short of saving their life.

As far as cultural reasons, unless you live in an oppressive country, it is still a choice. I'm sure most here recognize that culture we choose to follow is very different than culture we are forced to follow.


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

Let's see, I birthed them, one had a huge hematoma, I'm sure that was painful, the other was a breech extraction thru an emergency C-section incison (she was head down to begin with so that must have been scary for her as well), one was given formula which has led to leaky gut syndrome, which I imagine is painful, they were each tested for inborn errors of metabolism, stabbed in the heel with a lancet, that must've hurt. One recieved a vitamin K shot. They've both had blood tests for hemoglobin and lead checks. I had very good reasons for all of the above. I've also caused unintentional pain because of clumsiness or missteps, such as when cutting fingernails, or accidentally bumping a head going thru a doorway just as babe reared back.

I didn't pierce my babies' ears, because I didn't feel right causing them pain just so they could have cute earrings. If someone were to ask me my opinion I would say something very similar.

My objection to some of the posts in this thread is the tone, the words used, and how it is put. I don't think it serves any purpose to compare piercing to spanking or circumcision. I think there are ways to say that you (general you) object to causing infants' unnecessary pain without being rude, mean, sarcastic, snide, inflammatory, etc.

Certainly, if the majority of us agree that it is not within MDC's framework of values to support piercing infants along with not supporting circ'ing, or spanking, we could decide to ban it as a topic. I'm not sure how helpful that would be, though, in convincing someone not to do it.


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## charmarty (Jan 27, 2002)

I wonder the reason behind the OP's post? It seemed to me like it may have been giuded by a teeny weeny bit of guilt. That is just my oponion though.

I like to think of this thread as this:
There are ppl out there who do things just cause. Just cause the neighbour did it and it looks cute. Just cause the doc said it was ok. Just cause all the other kids are doing it and the list goes on and on. PPl are so much of the cookie cutter gang these days that it doesn't even really phase them to think, hey what about HER rights to HER own body? I do not think there is any less love in those folks than anyone who posted with such passion in this thread. Now, maybe next time because of this discussion someone will have a light bulb moment and say "Hey! You're right." Respect is taught and learnt. You are not just born with it.

Peace mama's


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## Poetmama (May 30, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rainbow*

That said, I won't push my morals on you- I just really disliked the "shame on you" comment if I decide to state that I find it morally wrong. *I* do not think culture is a valid reason to continue doing something I find wrong. No shame on me for that, none at all.

Ah,, you will have to accept my appologies. I read your post as "Shame on you Poetmama," that is why I got so defensive. But now that you have clarified, I feel better and understand your point! Thanks for being clear on that!


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## Poetmama (May 30, 2002)

To anyone reading this post: I am not angry here, just a bit sarcastic. Damn internet can't get my tone of vioce right!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain*
Whew...what a relief that it's already out there! Now will you follow me around the boards, posting right after every thread I post on? Just so people don't think I'm judgemental for judging the judgementalism of the judgtificationalistic judgement. I would hate to be misinterpreted, or worse yet, judged.

I love that Bible thing people try to throw at you, where let he who is without sin, whatever...it's always the last resort when your logic is not thought out. It says, "no one say anything that I don't like" --which is, of course, the beginning of saying "I refuse to consider other opinions---you're judgemental"

Poetmama, if you're still seething out there somewhere,
someday, I hope that you will find your peace.

I'm off to bleach my infants hair blonde. Sure the chemicals burn her, but they'll go away. Maybe I'll nurse her while I do it. Yeah, that's it. She looks like such a princess that way.

...stirring the pot....cackle cackle cackle

I begin to become defensive and use the judgemental word when people begin to equate ear piercing with child abuse. That issue has been put to rest. When someone flings words like "morally wrong," around, it is hard not to think that someone is judging you. What else could they be doing by saying that I or the OP is immoral in piercing.

So how is someone not judging anothers culture if they are saying "your practice is morally wrong, cruel, and just not right according to my morals and feelings" which they are holding me up to.

Whew, I have been gone since Monday or so dealing with school and the like. Hope I covered everything.

Still will not debate this as a circusision (male or female) issue. Don't have the time. Lip streching is much like earlobe stretching (which the Mayans and Aztecs also did), you don't stretch the lip all at once, its gradual. That's so it doesn't hurt.

Here is where the sacrasm comes in:
Off to randomly kick my ds and slap my dd (got to continue the abuse you know, that twenty seconds of piercing wasn't enough...), tell my parents they are morally wrong for keeping me a little woman by piercing me, and beat my dog.









I will have peace when I can be assured that people with the same skin color as I (re: Not white) can live in a land where they are not told their practices and lives are immoral, suspect, or heathen. (But maybe that belongs in Activism...) Until then, the peace I get from my family will have to do.

I've grown weary of this debate. As I've said before, you won't change my mind, I won't change yours. I probably won't be posting anymore on it. I've said all I can. (I think, of course my dh would be shocked by that sentence...)


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Poetsmama, spanking and circumcision are a huge part of white culture; since you are defending pain based on cultural tradition.

It is not disrespect for culture but ultimate respect for the individual child that compels the idea that elective pain is ethically wrong.


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## Midwesternmomma (Nov 2, 2003)

Spicey Mama - sorry I didn't see this one sooner... I would have stood by you the whole way.







s

I had my daughters ears pierced at 9 weeks. My husband is Spanish, actually FROM Spain, and it is very much a part of their culture. We choose to do it, while I was initially nervous, to respect his culture. My dd didn't like it, but she was fine, and like another poster, immediately nursed and we never heard another thing from her. Her ears look great, nearly two years later. We keep 14k gold in them and we have never had a problem.

I hate that some threads at MDC get soooo heated, especially over something that has already been done.. There's no turnin back the clock. You did it. I agree that you DID ask for opinions, but opinions don't have to come with such a nasty attitude.
This one was a hot one before, and if I remember correctly it ended up locked, a few months back.

So, if anyone wants to see a picture of Gabi in her ADORABLE earrings, please... ask. She looks soooo cute, she really likes them....

and I have every confidence that I am a good mom...


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## Mamm2 (Apr 19, 2004)

I am from an Hispanic culture, where girls are expected to get their ears pierced. So they can look "bonita."

Does this mean I would do it? NO WAY!! I agree with the poster that said there are still choices within your culture. I follow some things and others I do not.

This is the same circ argument; they go in, don't cry and are fine afterwards. That is what parents tell themselves, to make themselves feel better.

I think they truly believe this. No parents wants to believe that they intentionally caused unncessary pain.

When a man wants to circ, they usually have to prove why it is necessary. Find some data that shows its benefit.

I think the same should go for ear piercing. What are the benefits? Cuteness.

What are the cons? unncessary pain, possible complications/infection, choking hazard, right to choose, extra care, etc.

Like my dh said last night when I told him about this thread:

Why would anyone cause unncessary pain?
Isnt there a chance of infection/complication?

Leave it to a man to put it in perspective...


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## zaftigmama (Feb 13, 2004)

This thread has been fascinating to read. There are so many issues that have been brought up. But, I have to reply quickly so I can go find the princess thread. I have never understood why anyone would want a little girl to be a princess - I can't wait to go see what I'm missing.

I agree that MDC is a place where people come for support, info, etc.,. But does that mean that if we aren't supportive, we shouldn't say anything? And we'll all just agree all the time? How would we learn anything that way? I get tired of people posting conflicting questions and then getting so upset that no one agrees with them. When I ask questions or advice, I generally want people to speak their minds. And I generally ask before I make the decision, or what's the point of asking??

I agree that culture is a horrible reason to inflict pain on children. I'm a Jew, married to a Jew, with an intact son. There is a lot of beauty and love in Judaism. There are many ways for us to connect to our heritage through rituals, holidays, customs, songs, language, etc.,. He can do all that with a foreskin. And I'm sure there are other ways of celebrating other cultures without earrings, etc.,. At least wait until the child can choose. My son may decide he wants to be circumcised, and that will be fine as long as it's his choice. The same is true for earrings.

My daughter has a friend who is 11. My daughter is 3. We were bowling, and we found out that her friend was going to get her ears double pierced that afternoon. My daughter was begging and crying, she wanted earrings too, please, etc.,. So, we went along, and we saw her friend do it and she instantly changed her mind. Now if anyone mentions ear piercing she holds her hand up and says, "Not me!" I'm not sure what scared her, but I was glad she changed her mind. I think I would have let her if she saw it done and still wanted it. We talked about the pain, care, etc.,. but I feel that she is too young. I'm not sure when she'll be ready.

Ok, off to read about princesses (yuck!).

Take care,


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## sntm (Jan 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zaftigmama*
<snip>

I agree that MDC is a place where people come for support, info, etc.,. But does that mean that if we aren't supportive, we shouldn't say anything? And we'll all just agree all the time? How would we learn anything that way? I get tired of people posting conflicting questions and then getting so upset that no one agrees with them. When I ask questions or advice, I generally want people to speak their minds. And I generally ask before I make the decision, or what's the point of asking??

I agree that culture is a horrible reason to inflict pain on children. I'm a Jew, married to a Jew, with an intact son. There is a lot of beauty and love in Judaism. There are many ways for us to connect to our heritage through rituals, holidays, customs, songs, language, etc.,. He can do all that with a foreskin. And I'm sure there are other ways of celebrating other cultures without earrings, etc.,.
<snip>


Good points, both. I agree. Couldn't cultural practices be modified from earrings to bracelets? Jewelry/adornment without permanent modification or unnecessary pain.

FWIW, I dislike the look of earrings on babies or little girls, regardless of the reason for doing so. It makes them seem artificial, somehow. Detracts from their cuteness rather than contributes to it. JMO, anyway.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Britishmum, I hear you and ITA. It is a HUGE double standard to oppose hurting a child for disciplinary reasons but to support hurting a child for (supposedly) aesthetic ones. I don't get it either.

I wish people would learn to separate condemnations of their deeds and condemnations of their being. In other words, me saying I don't think you should have pierced your daughter's ears and giving you my reasons why does not equal an indictment of your totality as a parent or a human being. I don't think anyone here has said anyone is a horrible person or parent.

I don't think ear piercing is abuse. I also don't think circumcision or spanking is abuse. I think calling it that is divisive and inflammatory and downright inaccurate. It doesn't have to be abuse to be wrong. I am sorry that people's feelings were hurt on this thread, but I really didn't see anything that was so bad. Well, maybe one or two posts but the overwhelming majority were not disrespectful. I think some people get defensive when they are disagreed with and they read things into stuff that is not there. I am getting tired of the "kid glove" approach some people seem to expect. It seems like anything less than "Here is my opinion, but anything you decide is fine" is unacceptable to some members here. Yes, definitely, we should not insult or berate each other. But you know what, sometimes we are going to disagree and we are not going to think each other's viewpoint is "fine". That in itself does not equal an attack. It's starting to feel like Salem 1660 around here, where at the first hint of "non-acceptance" of someone's ideas everyone pounces on them and starts yelling "Judgement!"


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

I have to say I don't really understand some of the comments about how we all cause our babies pain. Being unhappy is not the same thing as being in pain. Changing a baby's diaper, bathing a baby, putting a baby down so I can go to the bathroom doesn't cause a baby pain and it's silly to say that it does even if the baby cries as a result. Ear piercing, circumcision and spanking all cause physical pain. To sort of shrug that off with a flippant "well we all cause our babies pain at some point" doesn't make any sense to me. ITA with Britishmum if we aren't allowed to argue for spanking or circumcision for whatever reasons because they hurt our babies why are we allowed to advocate ear piercing for cultural or asthetic reasons?


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
Poetsmama, spanking and circumcision are a huge part of white culture; since you are defending pain based on cultural tradition.

I'm going to have to disagree with this statement. Circumcision became common in the US after WW2, but I wouldn't say that it's a huge part of white culture, or a part of the culture at all. It's just something that the overwhelming majority of Americans have given little or no thought to. Spanking might be part of white culture, but I'd say that's changing-- the majority of Americans don't believe that it's okay to spank a child. Even the ones who do believe in spanking won't do it in public for fear of reprisal (most of the time), so how could it be called a huge part of the culture?

Quote:

It is not disrespect for culture but ultimate respect for the individual child that compels the idea that elective pain is ethically wrong.
Okay, let's say that you're heavily into NFL, so much so that you don't have a television at all. You will not let your child watch television at home, and you have therefore made them different from the majority of other children. You've made your child an outcast for the sake of your beliefs. You've certainly done it because you believe your child will be better off in the long run, but when other kids don't want to talk to your child because they haven't seen the latest show on Nickelodeon, you dc certainly doesn't see it that way. You have caused "elective pain" to your child. Is it, then, ethically wrong not to have a television? You might argue that physical pain is somehow different from emotional trauma, but think back on the most painful experiences of your life: they were more likely to have been emotional than physical. One could argue that by not letting your child watch television, you are donig them *more* damage than a fleeting moment of pain such as that caused by (most) ear piercings.

(Just some thoughts. Personally, I'm against piercing little girls, but then I've got no reason to do it and several reasons not to. I'm just very much against someone attacking another's culture just because it doesn't fit into their personal worldview.)


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wasabi*
I have to say I don't really understand some of the comments about how we all cause our babies pain. Being unhappy is not the same thing as being in pain. Changing a baby's diaper, bathing a baby, putting a baby down so I can go to the bathroom doesn't cause a baby pain and it's silly to say that it does even if the baby cries as a result. Ear piercing, circumcision and spanking all cause physical pain. To sort of shrug that off with a flippant "well we all cause our babies pain at some point" doesn't make any sense to me. ITA with Britishmum if we aren't allowed to argue for spanking or circumcision for whatever reasons because they hurt our babies why are we allowed to advocate ear piercing for cultural or asthetic reasons?

Many other things I described were pain, however. I was merely combatting one (what I viewed as) excessive statement about causing infants pain. It had nothing to do with the argument overall. In fact, I still haven't taken any stance other than yes, we cause our children temporary pain at times.


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy*
I'm going to have to disagree with this statement. Circumcision became common in the US after WW2, but I wouldn't say that it's a huge part of white culture, or a part of the culture at all. It's just something that the overwhelming majority of Americans have given little or no thought to. Spanking might be part of white culture, but I'd say that's changing-- the majority of Americans don't believe that it's okay to spank a child. Even the ones who do believe in spanking won't do it in public for fear of reprisal (most of the time), so how could it be called a huge part of the culture?

Okay, let's say that you're heavily into NFL, so much so that you don't have a television at all. You will not let your child watch television at home, and you have therefore made them different from the majority of other children. You've made your child an outcast for the sake of your beliefs. You've certainly done it because you believe your child will be better off in the long run, but when other kids don't want to talk to your child because they haven't seen the latest show on Nickelodeon, you dc certainly doesn't see it that way. You have caused "elective pain" to your child. Is it, then, ethically wrong not to have a television? You might argue that physical pain is somehow different from emotional trauma, but think back on the most painful experiences of your life: they were more likely to have been emotional than physical. One could argue that by not letting your child watch television, you are donig them *more* damage than a fleeting moment of pain such as that caused by (most) ear piercings.

(Just some thoughts. Personally, I'm against piercing little girls, but then I've got no reason to do it and several reasons not to. I'm just very much against someone attacking another's culture just because it doesn't fit into their personal worldview.)

No TV here- they are not noticably different from their peers at all- it causes no pain







And I seriously doubt it will cause any emotional trauma. We have yet to have anyone refuse to talk to them because they don't know about Nick or Cartoon Network.

Like I said earlier, it is very much my culture, or how I was raised to pierce the ears of little girls- I'm not attacking another person's culture. I'm saying if it is morally wrong to me, it is morally wrong to me inspite of our culture.


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Poetmama*
Ah,, you will have to accept my appologies. I read your post as "Shame on you Poetmama," that is why I got so defensive. But now that you have clarified, I feel better and understand your point! Thanks for being clear on that!

Not at all







Glad it is clear


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

eilonwy~

We obviously define culture differently. Circumcision and spanking have been the apple pie and Red Ryder wagon of parenting boys in white U.S. culture for the better part of the last 100 years. Try finding 100 white guys over 30 raised in the U.S. by U.S. born parents who weren't spanked or circed, and it won't be easy. I'd say that reflects very strongly on our culture. It still takes a great deal of conviction to go against that tradition. To not circ or never spank is still met with strong resistance from parents, friends, even doctors. To me, that is culture.

I have to laugh at the second part of your post because we actually do not have a television. My son is 8. It was a family decision ( he agreed to it) to get rid of the tv. I think I understand the spirit of your comparison, but it is, I think you may know, not logical for a number of reasons. One of them being that I didn't have to hold my son in a restraining position while he screamed as we got rid of the tv, another being that the negative impact of not having a tv that you imagine might happen has not actually happened (he doesn't feel isolated from peers or lack for things to talk about), and most importantly, we can always go and buy another tv!

I don't think you are really saying that we should encourage kids to indulge in whatever is popular. That would sure be a slippery slope. I appreciate you are trying to ask whether being "too natural" can wind up being damaging in a way that being "too into earrings" can be damaging.

If the motive for making a natural or ap choice is because you are trying to be as careful and respectful of your child as possible, and realize that toxins, tv, harsh words, etc. all cause harm, I don't see how that compares, no.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

annakiss I still do not see how you can lump together elective pain and
unavoidable pain.

Or is that the point? You see no difference?


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

I wasn't lumping them together. I wasn't making any point about ear piercing at all. I was saying that what wemoon said was over the top.

Quote:

WHAT????? Who does all kinds of things to cause their infants pain???? This is just too much. Never thought I would see the day where this was posted on MDC?
I was pointing out that I disagreed with the idea that we do not cause our infants pain. I was pointing out that on numerous occassions I caused my infant son pain, though of course it was not to pierce him or to remove his foreskin and it certainly wasn't to hit him. I was going off topic, if you will.

ETA - I have tried not to join sides in this argument. My posting was merely to encourage us to watch our tone. I understand that people are very passionate about their position on this issue, which I respect. I was joining the sentiment that we are making some sweeping statements here and must be careful about how we post so as not to violate the MDC User Agreement.


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## mountain (Dec 12, 2001)

I just don't see it as being over any kind of top. There IS a gentle purpose in the MDC statement.

Inflicting unnecessary pain on your child is cruel. Circumcision, spanking, uninformed piercing. It doesn't matter if you blame it on your culture, on your idea of beauty, on ancient civilizations, or your dog. It's still cruel. People have chosen WITHIN cultures to resist the traditions that don't make sense. That is how a culture evolves.

If you accidentally hit their foot on the table---unintentional pain inflicted. Not the same thing as cutting off body parts or ramming metal studs in their body.

I just hope, from all this craziness that one mama rethinks a decision to cause their child needless pain. Have some compassion for their experience.

From Khalil Gribran:

Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you.
And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

And again I am being misinterpretted.

I said "I am not making any statement about ear piercing." And I was not. I was making a statement about causing our children pain. Any sort of pain or discomfort, really. To say that it is something we should never do or do never do is over the top. Not that we shouldn't be gentle, I absolutely understand the aim of MDC to promote gentle ideals (hence gentle discipline, hence gentle birth choices, hence cosleeping and breastfeeding and the case against circumcision), but that sometimes we are not gentle. I was pointing out accidents, or choices that were in the best interest of my child, like an IV to knock him out so that he could have his mouth cut up and sewn back together. I am saying that it is a fallacy to say that it is an outrage that we cause our infants pain all the time. Pain does happen very often. My son still hurts himself daily by falling or bumping into walls or as he was just doing as I changed his diaper, pulling his own hair. I don't think he's just blatantly disregarding the preciousness of his own body, however. I think he's trying it out and seeing what it can do and he's just not quite skilled enough to never bump his head (I'm not that skilled either). This is no way a statement about piercing. This was a statement about inflicting or experiencing pain that is not malicious or ill-intentioned, yet still it happens.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Key word: INTENTIONAL.


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## romansmum (Nov 12, 2003)

just going to jump in here to say that piercing places in the maul are not! a sterile place and is not done w/ truly sterile procedure, also their method of puncturing is much more damaging to the skin, then a piercing done w/ a hollow needle. those people are not adequately trained

and no, i would not pierce my dd's or ds' ears w/o their consent and if they ever wanted earings would go to a trained piercer who would use sterile procedure.

dh's is a tattoo artist and this is one of his pet peeves.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

No, I think the key phrase should be _unnecessary and intentional_. I did intentionally yet necessarily allow the nurses to continue poking my son with needles until they found a vein that finally worked when he became dehydrated during a hospital stay.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Is there really anybody on this thread who doesn't understand and appreciate the difference between pain caused by necessary medical procedures, and pain caused purely by choice?







I don't understand where the disagreement is coming from.


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

I'm not sure I should really even bother, but as I am the source of all this mess I will try. I was responding to Britishmum's comment about it being against MDC's values to cause infant's pain and how can we advocate that. I was trying to say that it was not as simple as being against pain. That's all. Wemoon didn't get what I was saying. Annakiss did.

I'm bothered that some of what I have been trying to say in my posts is being interpreted as flippant and "kid gloving." I wholeheartedly agree with the merits of debate and I really dig a heated one. I don't think that we should all go around saying "I don't agree with you, but it is fine to go ahead and do whatever you want." I really don't know how else to say what I'm trying to say. There are so many posts now that I can agree that the majority are respectful, but there were several initially that I thought were too hurtful to be heard, that's all.

I work in labor and delivery and special care nursery. I am in a perpetual state of cognitive dissonance. I have had to learn that people are going to do what they are going to do. People make decisions with the information they have and from where they are in their lives. I have opportunities to jump in and say things like "So why are we doing this induction?" and actually have a woman say she doesn't want it and get her home. That's rare, though. Mostly they just go on and do it. Same with circumcision. I have better luck with getting people off on the right foot with breastfeeding. It's rough to ever convince someone to turn down routine procedures, antibiotics, etc. I just do my best, giving as much information and a different way of looking at things as possible. I've learned to just keep my mouth shut a majority of the times and simply live my values. The ones who are open to it see it and they ask me questions. I've had tons of lovely conversations about not circ'ing, breastfeeding, babywearing, elimination communication, you name it. But these are with people who are open to it. The one time "genital mutilation" passed my lips was the last. Very inflammatory. Completely shut down the conversation. (It was with a doc, not a patient.)

I've had to accept that I am not going to change everybody's minds, just some, and it is too taxing on me to use my energy in every single wrong situation. And it's wrong to me. It may not be to them. It really isn't my place to say. I just have to keep putting my ideas out there and see if they take root.

I think it is a pretty big leap to say that we should just let everyone do whatever they want and not ever say anything for fear of hurting their feelings. That isn't what I am getting at all.

P.S. My baby threw herself on the floor and had herself a big ol' tantrum today because she could not wear my earring. I thought that rather ironic.


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Ok, OT for a bit, but this is beautiful:

Quote:

From Khalil Gribran:

Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you.
And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.


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## Ravin (Mar 19, 2002)

To OP: I didn't judge you. I said something about cultural context and how as someone who has pierced ears and doesn't wear earrings I don't think it's that irrevocable and irreversible a decision.


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## oldcrunchymom (Jun 26, 2002)

I got my ears pierced semi-willingly when I was around 11. My mom and grandmother sort of goaded me into it. It was at one of those places at the mall and it hurt like hell. All I can say is, if you must do this to your infant, go to someone who actually KNOWS what they're doing, not some cheesy mall kiosk.

I haven't worn earrings in about ten years (I'm 32) because even gold would make my ears red, itchy, and often swollen. I suspect my daughter, being the fashion plate she is, will want her ears pierced eventually. First I will inform her it hurts like a mother, then if she still wants to do it I'll take her to a good piercing parlor where bored teenage girls working for minimum wage won't be doing the piercing.







:


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Annakiss, true, I should have added that one. Sophiamama, great post!


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

I concur about your post Sofiamomma!

Calm - you really are calm!







I didn't mean to sound snarky... I'm just tired of having to reiterate what I mean...


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

I haven't posted in here for awhile because it has just gone kinda crazy for me. There is such an obvious difference between medical and necessary procedures and ear piercing that I just have no clue what to even say about it. I DID misunderstand your post Sofiamomma, I had no clue what you were talking about. Now I understand and do not understand why this conversation is still going on this path! There is no relation to the two instances, unless for some reason someone needs to pierce ears for medical reasons???

Again, Annakiss, I feel really sad that you had to go through this with your son.

If anyone wanted to hear the rest of Kahlil Gabran, here is the chapter on children in The Prophet, you can also go on to read the first couple chapters and the rest of the book for that matter from this link: http://www.columbia.edu/~gm84/gibran4.html


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Thank you wemoon.









I honestly do not understand why that discussion has gone on either, except that not everyone understood initially, just as you did not. I think it's over now


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## Kirsten (Mar 19, 2002)

Wow, made it through all 11 pages!

I started asking for pierced ears when I was young - around second grade maybe? Some classmates had them. My dad told me when I was 18 or moved out of the house, whichever came first. Even though I was spoiled in every other way ($50 Sara jeans, etc.), no amount of begging would change his mind. My mom never had pierced ears (she was raised Mormon; not sure if that had anything to do with it or not).

As the years wore on, all my classmates (well, all the girls) got them. (I was the last girl in my class to get a bra too - I think my parents were very consious of their kids not growing up too soon) After my dad died, my mom let me get them pierced the next time I asked. I was 13. It was fine. But I think all the years of my dad being against it affected how I thought about them subconsiously? I soon got bored of them and never wore earrings much after the first year or so. They grew back.

In college, I had them repierced (same spots) and same thing happened (wore them a year then bored, let them grow back). Now I have not worn earrings for over ten years and can't get earrings in my ears but the spots are still visible (so there is a permanent part to it even if/when the holes grow back). Doesn't really bother me (especially because it was my choice to do it both times) but I do wish I never had had them done - but it is not something I think about except while reading this thread.









We have three girls and our dd1 has asked for pierced ears MANY times, starting in first grade or so. She is in third grade now and has pretty much given up asking as she knows I am firm in the "12 or 13 years old" plan. I have given a fair amount of thought as to why I feel this way. I think my dad's voice in my head is part of it - I adored the man. My impression is that it is a grown up thing to do, like wear makeup or high heels - and that it is unbecoming on young girls (it took me a long time to think of a nice way to say that!







. Some things are a matter of age IMO.

As a child, my neighbor had hers done at a young age (six?) and they were constantly infected, one side grew hair all around the piercing (it was odd).

Re: the culture reasoning - I am trying to be respectful of this but it is hard for me to understand. I had an ear to ear grin when I read the poster who said "I am jewish, my dh is jewish, our son is intact". I can imagine how much flak one must get when going against "tradition" but so respect those that make that choice.

I was in a mom/baby group with a mom whose culture shaved girls (boys too - not sure on that) heads at a year old I think it was. To the rest of us, it was a different idea but the baby is a year old (not exactly teasing age), the hair will grow back, no pain is inflicted. Of course none of the rest of us would do it but it is not something that we had an "up side" for. We were respectful of her option to do it. She ended up not doing it.

I think ear piercing is somewhere in between shaving your head and circumcision. For me personally, I would not do any of them but they fall on very different parts of the spectrum.

I think when you post anything, you should expect that varied opinions will be given. It is nice if they are given respectfully. But I don't think anyone should expect to be agreed with all the time, especially when the OP made it so clear that she was very conflicted herself. BTW, I am VERY mainstream in comparison to 99% of this board. So it is not as much in the "it is not AP/respectful of the child" (even though I agree with that - it is the pain part that is hard to justify) as it is "just not what seems appropriate on an infant or young child" for me.

And ONE LAST THING - promise!







Someone mentioned that no one argued against letting their child have pierced ears when the CHILD asked for it - I think a few have and I will join that group. Maybe it is thought by some to be respectful of the child to let her if she asks but I don't think my child should be allowed to do whatever her four year old mind thinks fun at the moment. My eight year old thinks she should be able to sit in the front seat of the car (we have an airbag) - nope. It is my job as her mother to reign in ideas I think inappropriate (and I can see the differerence between the very different consequences of having your ears pierced and being struck by the airbag). I realize that other moms may have different opinions on what is appropriate - good thing we live in America!


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Sorry, I kind of went over the top about "kid glove" treatment and all. I think I was reacting to some other posts I have read in addition to this one and that caused me to go off on a rant. Not really fair! Sorry!


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

Mountain, I should prob. PM you in case you don't come back







, but how would you feel if I used the Khalil Gribran quote you included? I love it.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annakiss*
No, I think the key phrase should be _unnecessary and intentional_.

But "necessary" is opinion. You child doesn't "necessarily" need his syrup smeared shirt changed (if, for example, he resists clotehs changing, cries hysterically, has to be restrained - gently as possible, of coruse). But in our culture, a kid wearing a fairly clean shirt to grandmas or preschool etc is loosely necessary. I can understand that, in another culture, a baby girl wearing earings would be loosely necessary.

Still don't think it a "good" thing (changing the shirt or piercing the babe). Still baffled by the hyperbole in this thread.


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## CaraHere (Jul 26, 2004)

Whew! It took half an hour to read all the posts. My goodness. I did smile at the poster who commented on "virgin ears" - that must have been me you were talking to when you were 11.

My mom didn't have pierced ears and so I never really was interested in them. I don't have pierced ears and so far my kids have not shown any interest in them as well. There is no cultural thing here, it's just not a big deal. Once in awhile they comment about their friends at school having pierced ears, but that's where it ends, with a comment.

Honestly, (hee hee) the real reason that I don't have pierced ears is because my grandmother had pierced ears - and she used to wear heavy earings and they stretched the holes in her ears and I used to think it looked so gross. My mom confessed that that was the same reason she never did hers.

I love my "virgin ears" (never thought of them as that before LOL) and I have never missed not knowing about wearing earings. The interesting part is that in my 40 years, I have never had another person comment on the fact that my ears are not pierced. No one has commented about our kids either...

I did watch a baby (about 8 months old) getting hers done in the window of one of those "mall places". You could hear her scream throughout the aisle. My heart broke for her and my stomach ached (I almost puked). I am glad pierced ears is a non-issue in our family.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

To the OP, I'm sorry people jumped all over you. I think people used overly strong language and were probably well aware that their comments would sting. They intentionally inflicted pain and decided to do it anyway.









Anyway, I don't find earrings attractive in general, certainly not on children or babies, but so what? I absolutely don't think it's disrespectful or abusive to pierce a baby's ears. Unnecessary and silly, yes, abusive and disrespectful, no. It's no different than choosing your child's religion or where they will grow up. These things have a much larger impact on a child's life than whether or not they have earrings.

And I agree with those who stated that equating piercing a baby's ears to abuse is disrespectful to those who have suffered abuse. I thought mountain's post about pinching was particularly cruel. People abuse their children because they have unresolved anger issues or mental illness or extremely poor parenting skills. People pierce their kids' ears because they have made a decision about their child's appearance. You may not like that some parents feel it's ok to choose for their child how their child looks, but to say it's abusive is mean.

When I was a social worker I had a 9-year-old client whose father nailed his foot to the floor. He intentionally chose to inflict pain on his child by drilling a hole in his child with a piece of metal. Who is seriously going to equate ear piercing with that?

I gave up on standing "on principle" when my best friend of 27 years almost didn't let me be her child's babysitter when she went back to work when her daughter was 11 weeks old. Why did she almost not let me? Because I am not Christian and she and her husband are. They felt that, in principle, the best thing for their daughter was to be in a Christian environment, so they were going to send her to a Christian daycare where she would be one of 12 infants with 2 caregivers. They told me, "We're concerned about what would happen if she asked you, for example, Why are there seeds in apples? We'd say, Because God put them there. What would you say?" Ok, hello, your child is 11 weeks old! I don't think that's an issue we'll be dealing with anytime in the near future! But to them, the principle of being in a Christian environment was more important than the actual care their daughter would receive. After several tense weeks, they decided to let me babysit her, everything worked out well, and the mom quit working to stay home with the kid before she was even verbal.

So, the lesson I took from that? EVERY situation is unique, and no one principle holds up in every single situation, ever. Even Buddha felt that there were certain circumstances when killing another human was the best choice to make, even though the first of the Five Precepts is that you not harm another living thing.

All that to say, I don't buy the "it's the principle of the thing" argument to accuse someone of being abusive of their child.

Namaste!


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
..
So, the lesson I took from that? EVERY situation is unique, and no one principle holds up in every single situation, ever. Even Buddha felt that there were certain circumstances when killing another human was the best choice to make, even though the first of the Five Precepts is that you not harm another living thing...

Obviously there are instances when it is necessary to take somebody else's life - (To preserve your own which is being threatened, perhaps?) but pray tell, what is the "certain circumstance" that makes it appropriate to force one's cosmetic preferences into a nonconsenting child's body via a piercing gun?


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

The point of my post was not to say there are certain times that it's ok to pierce a baby's ears and other times when it's not. I think I made it clear that while I think piercing a baby's ears is silly, I don't think it's abusive, and I don't think standing on principle alone is wise in this dynamic and everchanging world. I don't wish to get drawn into a long discussion on this topic. I stated where I stand, and I feel that the tone of your post was that of someone wishing to have a point to argue rather than one wishing for genuine information. If I have misjudged your tone, I apologize.

Namaste!

Ps. Just because a child is too young to verbally consent to something doesn't mean they are nonconsenting. I think that many people here assumed that the child was dissatisfied with the whole ear-piercing experience, but nothing that the OP has said has indicated that. I sometimes have to "restrain" my child even for things she wants me to do, like using a Q-tip, so that her wiggling doesn't cause a problem.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Again, I woyld say that the whole idea of what is "elective" and what is "necessary" is opinion.

We can debate the necessity of ear pircing babes (that would make for an interesting thread and might cause possible piercers to rethink thier plans), but we can't just condemn it with the statement that no unnecessary and unintentional pain should be inflected on kids; it is the rare mama that causes her child no unnecessary and intentional pain.

You child doesn't "necessarily" need his choc. syrup smeared shirt changed (for example, if he resists clothes changing, cries loudly during them, has to be restrained - gently as possible of course). But in our culture, a kid wearing a fairly clean shirt to grandmas or preschool etc is loosely necessary. I can understand that, in another culture, a baby girl wearing earings would be loosely necessary.

Still don't think it a "good" thing (changing the shirt or piercing the babe). But I baffled by the hyperbole in this thread. Are we really discussing murder and child abuse and circ and spanking in a thead about baby earings?


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

dharmamama, I liked your post, even though I didn't agree 100% with everything you said, you are obviously an intelligent person and your words were kind and well thought out. However, I can't resist pointing out the irony of the following statement:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
When I was a social worker I had a 9-year-old client whose father nailed his foot to the floor. He intentionally chose to inflict pain on his child by drilling a hole in his child with a piece of metal. Who is seriously going to equate ear piercing with that?

Isn't that EXACTLY what happens when you pierce a child's ear? I know that is not at all the point you were trying to get across, but like I said... I couldn't resist.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Thanks for your kind words, famousmockngbrd. Actually, I chose those words deliberately because people used similar words to describe the ear piercing. I was trying to highlight the irony.









Namaste!


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*
.. But I baffled by the hyperbole in this thread. Are we really discussing murder and child abuse and circ and spanking in a thead about baby earings?

I too am baffled that ear piercing is being compared to such things as changing a child's shirt. I suppose that is where we differ. One camp seems to believe that ear piercing is on the same continuum as circumcision and another camp believes it is more equatable to clean clothing.


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

Ah. I see.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boingo82*
I too am baffled that ear piercing is being compared to such things as changing a child's shirt.

No, it is compared to forcibly (though gently) restraining a loudly crying child while you change a shirt when a clean shirt is not a medical necessity but only a cosmetic preference.

It is as inaccuarte an analogy as circing.

But I agree that it would be much better all around if we'd let go of inaccurate anologies and discuss the issue at hand - which is not shirt changing or circing.

I really am coming to think that anaolgies (though I've always relied on them myself) are to logic and civil discourse what vinegar is to . . .


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*
..
I really am coming to think that anaolgies (though I've always relied on them myself) are to logic and civil discourse what vinegar is to . . .









Salad dressing?









No, I agree. As I've participated in the circ debate for quite a while, I am very aware that there are certain procedures for which there is no suitable analogy. A debate is better without them, as they usually end up as red herrings anyhow.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

well I can tell you this.

I'd rather someone forcible change my dirty socks, than forcibly pierce me anywhere.

But hey if you'd rather be ambushed by a couple of piercings than a pair of clean socks...well, I'd stay away from laundromats


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

And I do agree analogy is a slippery slope.

But the shirt will eventually be changed. It is inevitable. Even if it's a matter of waiting till they outgrow it









The same can't be said for the circ, or the piercing, or the spanking. Which is one reason it didn't work for me as analogy.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*

The same can't be said for the circ, or the piercing, or the spanking. Which is one reason it [restraint during clouthes changing] didn't work for me as analogy.

But spanking doesn't work as an anology because no adults (unless they are mentally ill) spank/hit themselves. Actually very few adult men choose to circ themselves either. Adults do peirce their ears and in large numbers.

Now I'm not for piercing babes; I'm for not discussing this issue using inflammatory anologies.

Liked the image of gangs of clean socks roving laundromats for prey, BTW


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Okay now you lost me *LOL*

I don't understand what you meant about people not hurting or piercing themselves. I wasn't thinking they did either.

Geez, if you'd just STOP with your analogies. You are addicted to them!










Kidding obviously.

Anyway...just to make my last post clear...

I meant the shirt (the baby's shirt), doesn't represent something invasive. I mean unless you are going to let them freeze in the winter (or in an air conditioned Kroger!), or burn in the sun~it's not exactly life saving medicine...but, I don't know that it's completely a matter of arbitrary parental preference. There is an aspect of the baby's overall comfort when it comes to the necessity of a shirt, right?

I think the problem is that you need a more inflammatory analogy to point out the faulty logic of analogies.

Like, say, using *carseats* to make your point about restraint...

Now THAT would have been interesting!


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

What is being discussed here is called "false logic", highly discussed and studied in physics. It can be likened to a discussion that goes like this:

Julie says, "It is best to allow the child to be scratched by the cat and learn for themself the consequences of rough play with a cat."
And Joe's response is, "Maybe you would let harm come to your child, but I am not going to let my child play with the dangerous pitbull next door just to learn that pitbulls will maul your face if threatened."

False logic. Joe jumped from a cat scratch to a pitbull mauling as though one were equal to the other. Julie is left feeling like a bad parent underhandedly, as her good method of consequences now seems evil and cruel. This false logic is applied to many arguments all the time in an effort to overstate a case. If Joe had stuck to the topic at hand, he would have had to sit there and argue that a cat scratch was a big deal - and that is much harder to defend.

There are many things between cat scratches and dog maulings. And there are still many others who would be against allowing a cat to scratch their child intentionally. But the point is the topic is cat scratches, not dog maulings. And in this case, the topic is ear piercing, not circumcision or spanking. However, a discussion on restraint of a child is true logic, as the restraint and the piercing are two separate issues. Then one must break down restraint - for the good of the child; and then for entertainment or other unnecessary reasons. One must be careful then not to use the false logic of equating holding down a screaming child to have its finger cut off to holding down a screaming child to put a diaper on. Earpiercing is an entity on its own, so the only true logic would be to equate ear piercing with having a small piece of metal driven into one's ear.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

I meant ear LOBE in that last sentence.


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## Raven (Dec 15, 2001)

Its obvious that you (the OP) felt that you were doing the wrong thing. That feeling you had is your *MATERNAL INSTINCT*. It is your guide. Your beacon. And beyond the debate about ear piercing, I see a greater need to address the fact that you did something that you felt was not quite right. I think its important that you follow your intuition - that still small voice that leads us in the right direction. The voice that tells us we need to do things differently - or not.

This is MDC - we advocate NATURAL family living. Dont be surprised to find (a whole lotta ) mama's here who dont think its NATURAL to pierce your dd's ears without her consent.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Calm - cat scratches can end in some very nasty infections.









While it is true that people sometimes use analogies that don't work, analogies themselves are not, IMO, entirely useless. Many things in life fall along a continuum, differing not in kind but in intensity.

You could argue that the cat scratch and the dog mauling are both _kinds_ of natural consequences related to pestering animals. They differ greatly in the severity of the consequences. It is not unreasonable for people to choose a point along the continuum and declare "This is my limit. I accept cat scratches but not dog bites." On the other hand, it is not unreasonable for someone else to say "I reject that continuum, because I don't believe animals should be put in that position." (Or whatever other reason they might have. I myself am a big believer in protecting animals FROM children. Animals have the right to be unmolested and not put in a place where they feel the need to get violent.)

This is similar to what is going on in this thread. (Oh no! Another analogy!) Some people are willing to draw their line on the continuum of cosmetic-procedures-done-to-young-children, and other people are arguing the entire spectrum is no good.

My personal opinion is that one shouldn't perform invasive cosmetic procedures on children too young to consent, but I do not consider it abusive to do so. I feel it is wrong, but not tragic.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*
But spanking doesn't work as an anology because no adults (unless they are mentally ill) spank/hit themselves. Actually very few adult men choose to circ themselves either. Adults do peirce their ears and in large numbers.

First, some adults do choose to spank themselves (or have others spank them) and they're not necessarily mentally ill. They have a fetish.

Further, I'm not seeing what bearing your point has on the discussion? It doesn't really matter whether or not an adult would do something to themselves - what matters is whether or not the child is choosing to do it when it's done. If not, the child's autonomy and bodily integrity is not being respected, regardless of whether a not an adult would make a specific choice.

I'll say it again - I don't believe that the circ analogy is at all inflammatory. It's analogizing two body modifications that are visited upon children for the sole reason of other people's preferences.

Yes, it's an uncomfortable analogy, but no less legitimate.

Dechen stated it very well above.


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## FoxintheSnow (May 11, 2004)

Personally I hate the way babies look with pierced ears, and I would never pierce a babe's ears even if I did like the way they look. (unless they were old enough to ask for it) Unlike circumcision I'm 100% positive ear piercing hurts (although i'm 99.9% sure circ ddoes) So why would I want to put my babe through pain because I think it will look good.


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## FoxintheSnow (May 11, 2004)

Another thing is the way a lot of mamas on here are saying ear piercing is no big deal reminds me of all the mainstream parents who say circ is no big deal.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
.

Further, I'm not seeing what bearing your point has on the discussion? It doesn't really matter whether or not an adult would do something to themselves - what matters is whether or not the child is choosing to do it when it's done.
Yes, it's an uncomfortable analogy, but no less legitimate.

Dechen stated it very well above.









I was showing how the anaology breaks down - how piercing and spanking (circing) do not just differ in serverity but in type.

I actually read Dechen's post as a balanced assesment the difference between the many posters who reject circing and spaning and child abuse as anologies for peircing and the many posters who think they are legitimate anaologies.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *heartmama*
Okay now you lost me *LOL*

I don't understand what you meant about people not hurting or piercing themselves. I wasn't thinking they did either.

I meant the shirt (the baby's shirt), doesn't represent something invasive. I mean unless you are going to let them freeze in the winter (or in an air conditioned Kroger!), or burn in the sun~it's not exactly life saving medicine...but, I don't know that it's completely a matter of arbitrary parental preference. There is an aspect of the baby's overall comfort when it comes to the necessity of a shirt, right?

I think the problem is that you need a more inflammatory analogy to point out the faulty logic of analogies.

Like, say, using *carseats* to make your point about restraint...










Oh, you said that chnging the dirty shirt would work as an anology because the shirt would eventually have to be changed (kid would grow out of it at some point) and teh ear wouldn't eventually have to be pierced. So I chose a way to show that spanking wasn't the same as peircing since adults don't spank themselves but adults do peirce themselves.

cosue that line of thinking is now rendered moot by dragonfly









Carseats wouldn't work because they are medically necessary. Pinning your child's arms down in order to change a dirty shirt for cosmetic purposes alone (choc syrup stain on the child's shirt is not making the child uncomfortable) is and is not "necessary." In our culture a child "needs" to wear a clean shirt to daycare, just as in another culture, a baby girl needs to wear earings to grandmas. And from what I remember of ear piercing - it is about as painful as having you arms pinned and a shirt pulled over you non-consenting torso.

Course anaologies are all bunk









Now, I am not for ear piercing babes (nor for making them wear a different shirt than they want to daycare). But I am for discussing this issue without hypebole that will change no one's mind.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*
I was showing how the anaology breaks down - how piercing and spanking (circing) do not just differ in serverity but in type.

I have to admit, I still don't get it.







And I guess we'll have to agree to disagree with regard to the analogy of circumcision and ear piercing being hyperbole. It doesn't seem an exaggeration to me, at all, to relate the two. They come from the same place in a person, IMO (one that enables them to treat their child's body as property, to be modified to suit their own preferences), and while one is certainly more severe and usually has greater long-term consequences than the other, they are still the same type of act (again, IMO).

I understand that those who would pierce their infant's ears but are opposed to circumcision would be uncomfortable with the analogy. But that doesn't make it hyperbole.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
I understand that those who would pierce their infant's ears but are opposed to circumcision would be uncomfortable with the analogy. But that doesn't make it hyperbole.

Well, I don't agree with either (circ or piercing babes) and I certainly think equating the two is like (another anology here







) like equating apples and oranges. Both are fruit (and thus similar), but both are still so different that if you want to discuss one it is not helpful to bring the other into it.

Down with anologies (oh, but they are fun - huh - even if too "easy").


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Hey all. To further my point about false logic, I would like to state that analogies are good, and I for one will not stop using them. I was upset, as stated many pages ago, by the OP. However, grabbing a newborn's penis, thrusting the foreskin up and slicing off a large piece of flesh, thereby exposing his most sensitive part, rendering him less sensitive sexually for the rest of his life is nothing like earpiercing. It is similar in three ways - the child gives no consent, it hurts, and they must be restrained. But these three things are present during the application of disinfectant on a wound. If a response to THAT analogy is that the disinfectant is for the good of the child, then I disagree, because I don't put disinfectant on my child, I think they are mostly harmful and unnatural and only warranted in extreme circumstances.

Another however, the fact that I know that some people have pierced OTHER parts of their children - noses, eyebrows, is directly related to ear piercing. I think even the OP would be shocked at seeing a baby with a nose ring, and most if not all would be shocked to learn this happens. Yet to me, it is the same thing. It is just that our culture doesn't look as favorably upon the other types of piercing, so we may see it as different, or less acceptable. I just think there were better analogies to be drawn, is all, there are plenty to choose from.

Boy, this thread is a die hard, hey? Draaaaaaaaws me back in....augh....help....I gotta find a new thread to stalk.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Calm*
Hey all. To further my point about false logic, I would like to state that analogies are good, and I for one will not stop using them. I was upset, as stated many pages ago, by the OP. However, grabbing a newborn's penis, thrusting the foreskin up and slicing off a large piece of flesh, thereby exposing his most sensitive part, rendering him less sensitive sexually for the rest of his life is nothing like earpiercing. It is similar in three ways - the child gives no consent, it hurts, and they must be restrained. But these three things are present during the application of disinfectant on a wound. If a response to THAT analogy is that the disinfectant is for the good of the child, then I disagree, because I don't put disinfectant on my child, I think they are mostly harmful and unnatural and only warranted in extreme circumstances.

Another however, the fact that I know that some people have pierced OTHER parts of their children - noses, eyebrows, is directly related to ear piercing. I think even the OP would be shocked at seeing a baby with a nose ring, and most if not all would be shocked to learn this happens. Yet to me, it is the same thing. It is just that our culture doesn't look as favorably upon the other types of piercing, so we may see it as different, or less acceptable. I just think there were better analogies to be drawn, is all, there are plenty to choose from.

Boy, this thread is a die hard, hey? Draaaaaaaaws me back in....augh....help....I gotta find a new thread to stalk.

You're smart.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sebastiansmommy*
Personally I hate the way babies look with pierced ears, and I would never pierce a babe's ears even if I did like the way they look. (unless they were old enough to ask for it) Unlike circumcision I'm 100% positive ear piercing hurts (although i'm 99.9% sure circ ddoes) So why would I want to put my babe through pain because I think it will look good.

Not to take this thread too far off topic....(not that that's stopped anyone else!







) but I think there's really no meaningful debate that circ is painful. As if it seriously needed to be studied to determine that slicing off part of the penis is painful







there have been a number of studies to prove the point. link

Both circumcision and ear piercing cause pain. On the spectrum of unnecessary cosmetic procedures I'd say circumcision is at the extreme end, but I still believe ear piercing of infants is on that spectrum and is wrong for many of the same reasons that circ is wrong (i.e. it is an unnecessary cosmetic procedure performed on a person who cannot consent to the procedure).


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## mountain (Dec 12, 2001)

This thread is dying hard isn't it mama Calm! It's like a car crash--cannot...avert...my...eyes...

I forget who, but a mama called me cruel, and it's true. The analogy I made r/e pinching & piercing did bring up some painful emotions for some. It's being cruel to be kind, trying to be an advocate for these children who don't have a say yet, but I won't stop doing that anytime soon, and I won't apologize for it.

Of course everything you analyze & compare is within degrees. If there weren't some differences, it would be the same & you would not be comparing them.

There are things that belong in a group together, though, and the analogies made within the group of "harming your child for your own whim" (or some call it culture) are: piercing your child's ears, circumcizing & genital mutilation, pinching smacking, punching your child, nailing a hole through their foot, etc. Of course there are matters of degrees separating them. Perhaps it's not as 'bad' to pinch your child as it is to nail their foot to the floor. BUT WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU, AS A CARING PARENT WANT TO DO ANY OF THESE THINGS?

My intention in bringing up a less socially acceptable form of pain infliction (pinching) was for some to recognize that it is within a group of actions that are undesirable as caring parents.

As for changing your kids shirt, that is an analogy that is outside of "harming your child for your own whim". Obviously if you leave a food-covered shirt on your child, it will begin to grow bacteria that will cause sickness & discomfort. In this way, you are AVOIDING pain.


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## Ilaria (Jan 14, 2002)

I think altering a child's body without their permission is wrong on many levels, and honestly I do not care if the reason for doing so is purely cosmetic or religious or cultural.

I do not like the look of earrings on little girls at all, I think of babies/toddlers with make up or in a pageant or something...not something I would ever want for my daughter (who is pretty and perfect on her own, the way she was born).

My parents let me have my ears pierced at almost 13, once I got my forst period. Later I had one ear triple pierced and although I never wear earrings there the holes are very visible and look stupid IMO.

I am NOT attacking you, but you asked for opinions and that is mine.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Okay..........................

Changing a child's shirt does not hurt.

Changing a child's diaper does not hurt.

Wiping a kid's nose doesn't hurt, nor does washing his hair or cleaning his ears.

A child needs an i.v. for surgery. It hurts but is necessary, because the surgery is necessary. I would cry for my little one but know that I have no other choice.

If my child was very ill and needed blood drawn, I would have to restrain him. It would hurt. But it would be necessary. And I would still be very saddened by it.

Piercing a child's ears hurts......... AND IT IS NOT NECESSARY.

I don't understand what people don't understand about this.

It is just as clear as day.

I wouldn't force my child to accept unnecessary pain.

There is accidental pain.... "Oh, my, I didn't realize your nose was sore when I wiped it. SORRY FOR CAUSING ACCIDENTAL PAIN, i DIDN'T MEAN TO."

There is purposeful pain... that is unnecessary... and that is piercing a child's ears who cannot consent to it.

Where does all the confusion come in? Honestly, IT IS AS CLEAR AS DAY, AND IT SHOULD BE TO ANYONE WHO HAS THE ABILITY TO THINK.










Just as there is no reason for piercing a child's ears, there is no reason for pinching a child. In our culture, one is classified as abuse and the other isn't. But at the simplest level, when you break it all down....... it's the same thing. Pain caused on purpose for no reason.

PAIN CAUSED ON PURPOSE FOR NO REASON.

Can we say it all together now?


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## alsoSarah (Apr 29, 2002)

I had managed to talk myself out of opening this thread until today, and I've not read all of the posts, but-- having read the OP where you said that *you* pierced your childs ears, I would like to commend you on making choices that do not expose your child to the risk of hepatitis that is inherent to the use of shared piercing guns.

I do not believe that we, as parents, have the right to have our kids pierced or circed, but I'm glad that you're looking our for your daughter's health, regardless.

alsoSarah


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mountain*

As for changing your kids shirt, that is an analogy that is outside of "harming your child for your own whim". Obviously if you leave a food-covered shirt on your child, it will begin to grow bacteria that will cause sickness & discomfort. In this way, you are AVOIDING pain.

You've got to be kidding. Growing up, I wore very dirty clothes (my parents were hippies who weren't hung-up on clean clothes, also we didn't have a washing machine). I never got sick. Choc syrup on a child's shirt isn't going to make them sick. You are restrianing them to change thier shirt for purely cosmentic reasons. Also social reasons (the disapproval you'd face at grandmas and the daycare). These are the very same reasons parents peirce babes. Kinda a silly anaology huh - about as silly as circing . . .

I say enough of peircing babes and enough of changing clothes for kids who don't want to change clouthes. Let go of your cultural baggage and let kids control thier own bodies.

(I'm serious - I'd never peirce my babe, and if my kid wants to wear a shirt smeared with jam to grandmas, he can).


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *candiland*

Changing a child's shirt does not hurt.


Pin a resisting kid between your legs no matter how gently in order to change his syrup smeared shirt, and it will not only hurt, it will feel tio him like a violation of his physical atonomy.

The "reason" you do it is social/cultural (kids wearing dirty clouthes is not acceptabel in our culture). Same reason a mama pirces her babe. I remember having my ears peirced, and it hurt about as much as being pinned between someone three times my size's legs while a shirt I want to wear is pulled, against my will, over my head.

I'm not arguing for piercing, I'm for understanding that peircing is not on the same level as circing. It is on a level with much less (though still "wrong") invasive parenting that refuses the autonomy of a child's body for cultural/social reasons (like making kids wear clothes they don't want to wear because your culture finds them appropriate)


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamawanabe*
(I'm serious - I'd never peirce my babe, and if my kid wants to wear a shirt smeared with jam to grandmas, he can).

Same here.







(I draw the line at poop though. :LOL)


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## wemoon (Aug 31, 2002)

Is this thread STILL going. Wow.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

I was wondering...I have not read the entire thread...has anyone caught on to the fact that the op spelled "Pierced" incorrectly?


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## BusyMommy (Nov 20, 2001)

:


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

I don't get it....fill me in (the spelling thing).

Anyway, I have found that the longer the thread, the more interesting and educating it becomes. I sometimes feel silly when I want to add to a really long thread that has been going around in circles like others are going to roll their eyes (like this post LOL) but then I drop my self-judgement and post anyway. Tra la!


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## MamaJosie (Apr 26, 2003)

"It is similar in three ways - the child gives no consent, it hurts, and they must be restrained."

There is another way it is similar. IT IS A PERMANENT ALTERATION OF ANOTHER PERSON'S BODY. This is the most aggregious aspect to me and the reason I think ear piercing of children is wrong and on the same spectrum as circ. Some argue that is is not permanent and the holes will close up if you want them to. This is not true for everyone. I had my ears pierced at age 4 and have not worn earrings for YEARS and there are still slits (not just holes) left in my ears that are very unnatractive. My folks did it because my uncle is an accomplished jeweler and they wanted me to be able to wear his earrings. I wish they had never done it and I will not let me kids "choose" this until at least age 16 and possibly make them wait until adulthood unless it is a huge desire on their part at 16. I think by that age maybe they can give informed consent. But right now my oldest dd is 10 and wants NOTHING to do with it.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MamaJosie*
I will not let me kids "choose" this until at least age 16 and possibly make them wait until adulthood unless it is a huge desire on their part at 16. I think by that age maybe they can give informed consent. But right now my oldest dd is 10 and wants NOTHING to do with it.

I am still resentful about being made to wait till I was 13. It was part of my parents' denial that my body was my own (ironically, exactly what I find most distasteful about putting earing holes on babies - not using "piercing" till someone explains the joke







)


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

I don't know whether to think the person who says changing a shirt hurts as much as having your ears pierced has an incredibly high tolerance for pain in her ear lobes or an incredibly rough parent. It baffles my mind that there are people who would equate the pain caused by those two events.


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## ladyshah (Apr 5, 2004)

I can agree with the points made by folks who don't like the piercing, esp. since the OP mentioned that her baby was screaming. But the melodrama in some of the posts comparing it to circumcision; to having a nail driven through your foot, or being beaten, is beyond me. I'm not necessarily for piercing babies' ears; as my own mom didn't let me have them done til I was 10, and only with my consent. But to compare a couple seconds' worth of a pinprick in the ear to the pain, shock, blood contamination, and permanent sexual damage of male or female circumcision or of having your foot nailed; or the emotional and physical mangling that can result from a beating, is just a bit much I think. I agree wiuth whoever said it trivializes the pain of the circ'ed and abused.

Further, I find it rather sad the way some women came here to defend their cultural practices--the Mexican and Indian ones--and were promptly told by the white American majority that their cultures were in the wrong. Isn't it rather imperialistic and bordering on the racist? And again, comparing it to female genital mutilation in Africa makes little sense, as cutting off a HUGE part of someone's body and permanently altering their sexuality, and possibly giving them HIV, has little comparison to a sanitized piece of jewelry going in the ear. Along these lines I found the comment about "symbols of wealth" a bit offensive too--not all jewelry is worn by the wealthy only or made to show wealth.


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ladyshah*
Further, I find it rather sad the way some women came here to defend their cultural practices--the Mexican and Indian ones--and were promptly told by the white American majority that their cultures were in the wrong. Isn't it rather imperialistic and bordering on the racist?

No, it isn't.


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## Ms. Frizzle (Jan 9, 2004)

I haven't read the others pages, but my opinion is that it's the same as circumcison..cruel, mean barbaric....
When my kids are old enough to understand what is about to happen, and if they still want it, then and only then would I allow it.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wasabi*
I don't know whether to think the person who says changing a shirt hurts as much as having your ears pierced has an incredibly high tolerance for pain in her ear lobes or an incredibly rough parent. It baffles my mind that there are people who would equate the pain caused by those two events.









I'd say the pain of having my shirt changed against my will was about equal to that of having my ears pierced. I'm sorry you're baffled, but for me, being physically restrained was so intolerable for me that I was more terrified by that than anything else. Having my ears pierced was a quick sting on either side, I barely remember the pain, but having my shirt changed when I didn't want it done... I can still remember every single time it happened after I was 20 months old. In fact, I can remember every time that I was restrained, and every "near miss" (like the time I talked the ER doctor out of restraining me for stitches in my head when I was three).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ladyshah*
Further, I find it rather sad the way some women came here to defend their cultural practices--the Mexican and Indian ones--and were promptly told by the white American majority that their cultures were in the wrong. Isn't it rather imperialistic and bordering on the racist?

Of course it is, but you'll be hard pressed to find people to admit to that here. You'll hear the argument "it's not racist to be negative about someone else's cultural practice if it's barbaric," which is a specious argument at best.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

"I find it rather sad the way some women came here to defend their cultural practices--the Mexican and Indian ones--and were promptly told by the white American majority that their cultures were in the wrong. Isn't it rather imperialistic and bordering on the racist?"

I don't follow. I have no problem saying that the white American majority culture has been wrong for years in circumcising their baby boys. If it is racist to say that piercing is wrong here, then does it follow that the anti-circumcision forum here is inherently racist?

Although I guess that doesn't follow for people who don't believe that there is a link between piercing and circumcision as both are intentional acts that alter and cause pain, made upon an unconsenting child's body.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

And it certainly would be racist, using this cultural relativist viewpoint, to criticize female genital mutilation - or circumcision, to use the less loaded term. After all, that practice has been a deeply ingrained cultural tradition for many millions of women for hundreds of years.

As was foot binding in China. And stoning of adulteresses. As was slavery.

Calling something a "cultural tradition" cannot and should not immunize it from criticism.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky*
Calling something a "cultural tradition" cannot and should not immunize it from criticism.











I believe this is how positive change happens. Evolution through discovery and conversation. Sometimes that conversation is heated and painful but one grows through having it.


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## Mamm2 (Apr 19, 2004)

To what Quirky and Britishmum said


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## Ilaria (Jan 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky*
Calling something a "cultural tradition" cannot and should not immunize it from criticism.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Edited because Quirky already said it.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky*
And it certainly would be racist, using this cultural relativist viewpoint, to criticize female genital mutilation - or circumcision, to use the less loaded term. After all, that practice has been a deeply ingrained cultural tradition for many millions of women for hundreds of years.

As was foot binding in China. And stoning of adulteresses. As was slavery.

Calling something a "cultural tradition" cannot and should not immunize it from criticism.

Once again, we have analogies which make no sense.









I know that if I got started on what I think of many white Christians, I'd probably be more than flamed-- I'd recieve warnings from mods, and possibly even be banned from the boards. It would be completely unacceptable for me to make such comments here, regardless of their truth. I thought that was because it was not acceptable here to make disparaging comments about other cultures, but maybe it only applies to the majority?


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

I do not have an opinion on any of that to post here, I am just pointing something out -

Quote:

Calling something a "cultural tradition" cannot and should not immunize it from criticism
This is "something", it does not point the finger at "someone", but a tradition, and we should be free to discuss such things.

Quote:

I know that if I got started on what I think of many white Christians, I'd probably be more than flamed
This is "someone", and the reason you may be flamed is because it is your opinion of "white Christians" - people. The difference is reflection on a tradition or culture opposed to a person directly. If we keep our thoughts on culture, not on the people who follow a culture - it is an interesting, opening discussion. If we direct our thoughts into the people of such traditions, grouping them as a whole under one title as though they are not individuals - then that is called a personal attack/judgement/etc.


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Calm, you are a genius. You always manage to articulate what I cannot with my post-partum-brain.

It is true, nobody said, "Mexicans are bad people 'cause they pierce" - that WOULD be racist.
People are saying, "I disagree with piercing whether it's a 'cultural' tradition or not." That is not racist.

What it comes down to for me, is that I think ALL babies should have the right to their own bodily integrity, no matter what race or culture they are born into. A Mexican baby or an Indian baby are just as deserving of their unaltered ears as any other babies are IMO.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Spanking has been a "white christian" tradition that we managed to agree is unacceptable here.

Many christians trace spanking to biblical mandates ordering them to spank or else fail to correctly raise there child. If you don't think spanking is as important to some "white christians" as ear piercing is to other faiths and traditions...

...then you haven't spent much time in the deep south.


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## Quirky (Jun 18, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy*
Of course it is, but you'll be hard pressed to find people to admit to that here. You'll hear the argument "it's not racist to be negative about someone else's cultural practice if it's barbaric," which is a specious argument at best.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy*
Once again, we have analogies which make no sense.

[sarcastic smiley omitted]

Interesting how your arguments devolve into name calling - "specious," "nonsense." All I did was apply the logic of your broad, sweeping assertion to other "cultural traditions." That is not arguing by analogy, that is applying your statement in a broader context. You may not choose to admit it, but it makes perfect sense.

It is hardly logical to jump on the bandwagon of defending certain cultural traditions against charges of racism (interesting how that got thrown into the mix) but then to back away when it comes to pointing out that other cultural traditions of various peoples of color may not be worthy of defense.

Feel free to make whatever disparaging remarks you'd like to make about whatever majority practices are harmful to children. I believe we see that on the board all the time - you don't see a lot of support for CIO, voluntary FF, spanking, etc. But I will not shut my eyes to practices that I believe are wrong no matter what the skin color of the people that may have originated that practice because someone plays the racism card.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Saying an argument is specious is name calling?







You'll have to explain that one to me.

You're missing my point, but perhaps I could have articulated it better: There are traditions which many white Christians hold dear (and I'm not talking about spanking here) which I personally find absolutely abhorent. I'm certain that if I went into them here, I'd be reprimanded or even banned from the boards if I started talking about how wrong they are, even if I avoided talking about people and kept to the topic at hand.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky*
It is hardly logical to jump on the bandwagon of defending certain cultural traditions against charges of racism (interesting how that got thrown into the mix) but then to back away when it comes to pointing out that other cultural traditions of various peoples of color may not be worthy of defense.

I didn't back away-- I pointed out that the analogy was a false one. Foot binding = ear piercing? Sorry, I don't buy it.







That argument has been had throughout this thread, and I didn't think it would be prudent to bring it up again. Some people here think that a tiny little earring in a baby's ear is just as horrific as circumcision or slavery or foot binding, and some people think that it's more like changing a child's dirty shirt against their will. Still others have said that changing a child's shirt against their will is, in itself, a horrible thing to do. None of that is relevant to what I was saying: I was talking about the tendancy of the majority to pass judgement on the minority and to call their cultural traditions are barbaric and cruel. If such statements were made about majority culture, they would be considered unacceptable in this setting. Even if the statements made were in line with the philosophy of attachment parenting and natural family living (i.e. we're not talking about spanking, circumcision, etc) we couldn't make them, because they would be disparaging towards the culture of the majority.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Quirky*
Feel free to make whatever disparaging remarks you'd like to make about whatever majority practices are harmful to children. I believe we see that on the board all the time - you don't see a lot of support for CIO, voluntary FF, spanking, etc. But I will not shut my eyes to practices that I believe are wrong no matter what the skin color of the people that may have originated that practice because someone plays the racism card.

Again, that's the point. I'm not free to make such comments here, it's just a fact and I'm okay with it.







You have your opinions about what is harmful to children, and I have mine. My daughter's ears are not pierced and won't be pierced until she's old enough to ask for them; this is not because I believe any great harm will come to her if I have them done, but because it means absolutely nothing to me if she does or doesn't and I see no point in it. I wouldn't expect to get support here if I said that I had her ears pierced, but I would hope that if my culture dictated such a tradition that you'd have enough respect to ask me why it was so important to me, rather than to just dismiss the cultural tradition argument out of hand.


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## jannan (Oct 30, 2002)

14 pages of bashing spiceymomma for doing to her daughter something within her right as a parent to do. guess what folks? her daughter will never remember it , and if she chooses when she is older not to wear earrings, she doesn't have to. i'm wondering if spicey momma is of hispanic descent...in that culture it is very commom. all the ignorant comments posted here about body mutilation would never be addressed to a jewish mother who chose to circumsize. if i had a boy would i circumsize. well, if i truly believed that it was a covenent with god.........then i would be obliged to.

give spicey momma a break........some people here are acting like she tattoed her dd's forehead.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jannan*
all the ignorant comments posted here about body mutilation would never be addressed to a jewish mother who chose to circumsize.









: :LOL







: You're kidding, right? Of course they would, they do it all the time. This is MDC, where Judaism or Islam is not considered an acceptable reason to circumcise by most.


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## ladyshah (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jannan*
14 pages of bashing spiceymomma for doing to her daughter something within her right as a parent to do. guess what folks? her daughter will never remember it , and if she chooses when she is older not to wear earrings, she doesn't have to. i'm wondering if spicey momma is of hispanic descent...in that culture it is very commom. all the ignorant comments posted here about body mutilation would never be addressed to a jewish mother who chose to circumsize. if i had a boy would i circumsize. well, if i truly believed that it was a covenent with god.........then i would be obliged to.

give spicey momma a break........some people here are acting like she tattoed her dd's forehead.

Exactly. I just do not get the melodrama here.
That's all.







: That being said, I think I'll go check out some different threads.


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## alsoSarah (Apr 29, 2002)

Excerpts from the OP:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spicey Momma*
I had wanted it done since she was tiny....

Everything NFL in me was screaming "WHAT ARE YOU DOING! YOU ARE ABOUT TO PUT *HOLES* IN YOUR DD'S BODY!!!!

But everything mainstream in me was trying to calm my "crunchy side" by saying, "DD is a princess, and this will be so cute.....

How do you guys feel about this? Am I the only crunchy momma that has peirced her DDs ears?

I agree that cultural traditions create grey areas.
It didn't seem to me, reading the OP, that this was such a case.
I guess I assumed that if it were, that would be mentioned in the OP, and that one would be unlikely to solicit others' opinions of a decision that was strongly motivated by a cultural tradition....

peace,
alsoSarah


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jannan*
all the ignorant comments posted here about body mutilation would never be addressed to a jewish mother who chose to circumsize.


Guess this poster never goes to the Case Against Circumcision forum, where Jewish mothers have been called (to their virtual/Internet faces) mutilators and child abusers. Not to mention worse.


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *merpk*
Guess this poster never goes to the Case Against Circumcision forum, where Jewish mothers have been called (to their virtual/Internet faces) mutilators and child abusers. Not to mention worse.










I've seen it a lot as well...


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

Culture though (IMO) is different than religion- the two overlap but are also different.


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy*
I'd say the pain of having my shirt changed against my will was about equal to that of having my ears pierced. I'm sorry you're baffled, but for me, being physically restrained was so intolerable for me that I was more terrified by that than anything else. Having my ears pierced was a quick sting on either side, I barely remember the pain, but having my shirt changed when I didn't want it done... I can still remember every single time it happened after I was 20 months old..

Imagine then if having your shirt changed was such a traumatic experience how much worse being restrained as a young child so that your ears could be forcibly pierced would have been for you.


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## wasabi (Oct 12, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eilonwy*
I didn't back away-- I pointed out that the analogy was a false one. Foot binding = ear piercing? Sorry, I don't buy it.







That argument has been had throughout this thread, and I didn't think it would be prudent to bring it up again. Some people here think that a tiny little earring in a baby's ear is just as horrific as circumcision or slavery or foot binding, and some people think that it's more like changing a child's dirty shirt against their will. Still others have said that changing a child's shirt against their will is, in itself, a horrible thing to do. None of that is relevant to what I was saying: I was talking about the tendancy of the majority to pass judgement on the minority and to call their cultural traditions are barbaric and cruel. If such statements were made about majority culture, they would be considered unacceptable in this setting. Even if the statements made were in line with the philosophy of attachment parenting and natural family living (i.e. we're not talking about spanking, circumcision, etc) we couldn't make them, because they would be disparaging towards the culture of the majority.

But following the line of argument you started the point is not whether or not ear piercing and foot binding or slavery are equivalent in immorality. You started talking about it being incorrect to judge cultural traditions. Someone else pointed out that there are many cultural traditions that the world at large has judged to be immoral and they have in many cases such as slavery and foot binding been outlawed. Unless you are arguing that we cannot consider any cultural practices immoral then your point makes no sense. We do judge cultural practices all the time. In this case apparently you feel ear piercing is not severe enough to be judged but should be offered some sort of protected status you would not offer to practices *you* feel are truly abusive. If I have misunderstood you and you feel that no practices no matter how horrific should be judged immoral then I apologize.


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## eilonwy (Apr 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wasabi*
But following the line of argument you started the point is not whether or not ear piercing and foot binding or slavery are equivalent in immorality. You started talking about it being incorrect to judge cultural traditions. Someone else pointed out that there are many cultural traditions that the world at large has judged to be immoral and they have in many cases such as slavery and foot binding been outlawed. Unless you are arguing that we cannot consider any cultural practices immoral then your point makes no sense. We do judge cultural practices all the time.

I'm not saying that cultural practices cannot be considered immoral, I'm saying that before you criticize someone else's culture, you need to have some understanding of where they're coming from. You need to be aware that other cultures view things differently. You seem to believe that everyone should view things like ear piercing the same way that you do: as causing unecessary pain purely for cosmetic purposes. It's not a reasonable view for everyone to have; perhaps anesthetic is used sometimes, perhaps if a child's ears aren't pierced they won't be considered part of the family/community/tribe and thus won't be treated as well as the others. Perhaps it's just a beautiful, long standing tradition passed down from mother to daughter (or father to son) which is very important to the mother to continue. I'm saying that when you automatically dismiss the cultural tradition argument, you're dismissing the culture and that's not a reasonable thing to do. Nor is it likely to change anyone's mind; if anything, it will make members of said culture more insular, in order to avoid such dismissive and derisive commentary.

Quote:

In this case apparently you feel ear piercing is not severe enough to be judged but should be offered some sort of protected status you would not offer to practices *you* feel are truly abusive. If I have misunderstood you and you feel that no practices no matter how horrific should be judged immoral then I apologize.
There are plenty of practices which I find abusive, but I don't feel that it's my place to make derisive comments about a cultural tradition which I don't understand. The attitude that no understanding of the culture is necessary, that it should just be changed, is one which runs rampant among white Christians, not just on these boards but in general in the USA. It's one of those things which is so thoroughly ingrained in white Christian America that it's not even questioned; of _course_ we're right, we know everything, and it doesn't matter that we don't speak your language or understand your history, _we know what's best for you._

For the record, I personally judge many practices to be immoral (what do you think I am?







)-- so I don't do those things, and when I encounter them or the attitudes which surround them I work to educate and inform. However, before I can do that, I have to educate myself as to whom I'm speaking with. I can't just walk up to a woman with a baby girl who's ears are pierced and say "what a horrible thing, how could you do this to your little girl, she was perfect just the way she was born!" without knowing where they're coming from. When my sister took my niece to get her ears pierced, I knew exactly where she was coming from, and you'd better believe I argued against it. She didn't have a cultural reason to do it, and her reasons were selfish and thoughtless. I can't assume the same thing of a woman I don't even know.

alsoSarah: I agree with you. This argument about cultural traditions is completely off of the original topic.


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## mountain mom (Nov 6, 2003)

When I read the orginal post in the thread I thought "Wow, why would this Mother want to ask this forum this question?"

I really am not comfortable with the fact that a huge thread as transpired from what I assume is the op's guilt at what she has done.

I mean really, "Everything in me was shouting no!" and then she went ahead and did it anyway.

To the op...that inner voice is your conscious speaking. Next time pay more attention to it and perhaps you won't feel like coming here to feel validated in what you have done.


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

eilonwy

I hear you on the problem of white culture's opinion of other cultures. I do hear you on that. I agree it is a problem. It is a problem because white culture is so powerful. It's power makes it's prejucides become institutionalized racism, in a way that isn't true in reverse. I DO hear you.

I hope you will hear me too.

I feel those who live with sufficient freedom to choose how they express their culture and religion (meaning, your child won't be denied education, or unable to marry, because they are not tatooed, pierced, or circed correctly), *we* cannot say that religion and culture mandate our decisions. If we had the ability to choose, failing to see that is unfair to those who cannot choose.

I know from reading many posts at MDC, that many parents have chosen not to participate in painful culture practices for their children, specifically because of an inner voice. They had both the desire to choose something outside of tradition, and they had the freedom to make that choice.

I hope you can see that there ARE people who question, both themselves and each other, by asking what are the rights of the child.

They ask this as individuals. They are not asking as a way to represent their culture. They are asking for themselves, and for their children.

We all live with cultural pressures. No one is free from this. I agree that white culture has power that sets it apart, and makes it's opinions more threatening to others. If it were not for this, I could not not see a difference between the christian spanking, the jewish circ, the african circ, the hispanic piercing...they all are parental expressions of culture. They differ in severity but share the same faith in the right of the parent to painfully inflict culture, into the very skin of the child.

I hope that the belief in individual thought will make it possible to ask "What are the rights of the child?" and still be heard. There are people within every culture who think for themselves. Who ask questions and answer according to their own heart, not their culture. I think ap attracts those parents. I am a poor example of typical "white culture", and it's because I've answered certain question for myself. I know this is true for many others here, from all backgrounds.

If you propose basic rights for all children, the rights exist regardless of the culture. Not questioning each other for fear of cultural differences misses the overall point of advocating for the rights of the child.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

May I offer that culture is something that is done by the majority of a group. Tradition is something that has been passed down through a group, be it through a family history, a cultural group or the past through one lifetime eg, "secret Santa" is a tradition in some families, Thanksgiving is a tradition in most American homes.

Therefore - earpiercing is a part of our culture. To that I say a big SO WHAT! Twice a year I put on earrings, my dd saw me put them on and begged for earrings, she is only 2.5 years old. So we went out and bought some clip ons, and she got to play princess anyway. CHOICE - a wonderful thing.

My faith teaches me compassion and loving kindness, and to use them in every situation. I am confronted daily with an overlap, for example, this thread. Compassion for the OP mama leads me to speak gently, guide wisely and have loving kindness in my heart in all interactions. Compassion also leads me to feel for the child, who had a simple, yet valid personal liberty revoked. How to deal with such conflict for myself? Well, with loving kindness in my heart, it really isn't hard at all.

I do not measure any act on culture or tradition. To me, it plays no part in my evaluation, my heart's evaluation which uses certain filters based in liberty, non-harm, gentle action and speech and many others which are universally regarded as good. I trust my instincts. There are many colors in my own family, and I myself am an Australian/British citizen/American resident. There is no racism or lack of compassion in me regarding another's culture, religion, nationality or color - it bears absolutely no weight on my evaluations.

To tie this into the latest topic and this thread, I don't care if you are a part of a majority, even the - gasp - white Christian majority - if the action is unskilful (as passed through my filters) I am going to say it, at the risk of having my post removed and my membership revoked - always! However, I will say it nicely, dammit LOL! And those who know me on this forum know what I say to society and their governing ways - now where is that bird smilie....


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Heartmama, great post! We posted simultaneously, now I wish I knew you were posting that, cos it said what I wanted to say.


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## mike (Sep 5, 2005)

I beleave any form of body modification should be left up to the person. I cant beleave you would put someone throu that much pain for cosmetic reasons.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

spicey momma, i havent read all the answers. but i think of all teh terrible things u can do to a child - pierced ears is nothing. i have no problems with pierced ears (mind u though i am from asia where everyone has pierced ears) though i am waiting with my dd 'coz my mil and my bf wanted me to wait. she doesnt like earrings on a baby so i didnt pierce my dd's ears. i did this because she has always wanted a dd, miscarried one and never had one. that is not going to last long though as my 3 year old has been asking for it for a while now.

but i dont really buy into the the child makes the decision. its just a physical thing that i would not lay any importance on. i know my dd is not going to be v. upset had i already pierced her ears. in teh greater realm of things pierced ears is not a big deal at all.


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## Irishmommy (Nov 19, 2001)

The op was over a year ago, you saw that, right?


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

I would do it if my child were older and wanted it done, and if she still wanted it done after I explained to her how it would happen, and after she watched it done on somebody else.

Holding an infant or toddler down and piercing holes in their ears without their consent so they can "look like a princess"... uh, not so







much. To say the least.


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## Amylcd (Jun 16, 2005)

I haven't read all the replies...

but I would NEVER do it. Too much risk involved (getting ripped out, becoming infected, etc)

The way I see it.. it's not my body, so therefore I don't have the right to make a decision like that.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

: Oops, I didn't see that this was a resurrected thread.


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

Oops, fell for the ol' resurrected thread trick.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

ooops sorry - didnt see the date.


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## Jilian (Jun 16, 2003)

Another person not paying attention to dates here







:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HeatherE*
Just as if I had had boys and didn't feel I had the right to circumsise them without their consent, I do not feel i have the right to pierce my girls' ears without their consent.

I agree. My son's body belongs to my son, I would not alter it in any way unless it were a life or death matter. It's just not my choice to make. If I had a DD that was old enough to want her ears pierced, I would first offer stick-on or magnetic earrings. My mother had my ears pierced when I was a tiny baby and I've always felt it was sort of selfish for her to do that. Her reason: she thought I looked like a boy and wanted people to know I was a girl.


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

I feel very strongly about not having my daughter's ears pierced before she's old enough to ask for it, but her father knows this is a peeve of mine and so will probably get it done the first time he has a chance.

For the record, I don't think it's terrible or anything. Just not something I would do.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

I read 13 pages of this thread before noticing that it was from 2004.

Every single board I've ever been on (crunchy or mainstream) where piercing a young child's ears has been discussed it ends up very, very heated. People feel very strongly about this on both sides.

My opinion a little late-
I personally wouldn't take a baby or toddler to get their ears pierced because I feel strongly about it being the child's body and thus their choice. I know those who do it have their reasons and while I don't agree or support that choice I don't view it as abusive or mutilating. I hope those who do it with their young children will do it as safely and kindly as possible.

This thread re-appearing was timely for me because my 5 year old asked just yesterday if she could get her ears pierced and wear earrings. I told her when she is 8 years old she can have it done if she wants. Kind of a rite-of-passage thing. I plan to explain the process to her and until then offer other options for wearing earrings- like clip on earrings. This thread has good info on why not to go to the mall to pierce. Thanks to everyone who posted that.








I had my ears pierced at 8 years (at the mall) and I think it was a good age. I knew what I was doing. It was my idea. Even then it hurt. My mom has never had her ears pierced so I didn't feel obligated to do it. My sister had hers done the same day and has had problems with tearing when they got caught on things.
I haven't worn earrings for a long time and one hole has closed up. The holes are still visible. If dd decides to have it done at 8 years, I will get mine redone and make it a nice mother-daughter event with maybe a special lunch or something.


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## Nature (Mar 12, 2005)

I pierced my oldest ones ears when she was 4 months old because I thought it "looked cute." I was young and definatly not AP at the time. I have not pierced my second dd's ears and I will not unless she asks for them when she is older. I also know that they would be a safety hazard for her as she HATES things on her body she can't get off and I know she'd end up ripping them out.

I don't feel guilty about having pierced my oldests ears, but I don't think I was really thinking about her when I did it. I just saw the cute factor. I wish that I had been wiser at the time.







live and learn I guess.

(Edit: hahha I didn't see this was an old resurrected thread. Oooops!







)


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## mammafish78 (Jun 9, 2005)

my mom had my ears pierced at 3 months.

when dad found out he had a fit and promptly sent mom out to have hers done. he couldnt believe she had mine done but never had hers done.

so mom went to get her ears pierced and after one ear, she passed out. she had to go to the hospital and had them finish the job because she knew dad would never let her in the door if she wasnt wearing ear rings.

i dont wear ear rings now, my ears are very sensitive. i can only put them in for a matter of minutes.

and i guess when i was 3 months old the ear rings looked strait, but they arent. if i wanted to wear ear rings now they would be totally crooked.

so i am really upset that my mom pierced my ears so young.

and i guess because they were done when i was so young, they holes are permanent, they have never closed and i havent wore ear rings in YEARS.


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## tiffer23 (Nov 7, 2005)

I would never pierce my child's ears until they are old enough to ask me. They'd also have to be old enough to know that it would hurt for a bit and they'd need to be able to clean them properly.

I just think that sweet little baby ears are precious enough as is, they don't need a piece of metal stuck through them.

ETA: I didn't see it was an old thread either. ha ha


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

I only got my ears pierced after I asked and did something, don't remember what, to demonstrate that I'd be able to take care of them. But I definitely had to wait to get them pierced.


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## hippiemomma (Mar 13, 2005)

why not just color em with a marker









poor kid, so innocent.


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## vermonttaylors (May 17, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boston*
No, I would not do this. Not unless my daughter truly wanted them, and was old enough to have real informed consent.









:


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## hippiemomma (Mar 13, 2005)

people who call their daughter's princess is just wrong.... might as well call her Paris Hilton.


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## Shann (Dec 19, 2003)

I had both of my sons' ears pierced at an early age and they have had them pierced several more times since then.


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## Mackenzie (Sep 26, 2004)

I feel that cosmetically altering your childs body without their consent is wrong. I did do my daughters when she was very young and regreted it. We removed them a couple months later and never put them back. She is now 7 and she stopped while shopping to watch someone getting their ears done. I asked her if she was interested in it and she said "no not right now" and walked on







I do not think that parent should be allowed to do these things.

I wouldnt get my infant a nose job either.....

I regret making that choice for her years ago and never would I do that to another one of my kids be it ears, penis or nose....


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

my dd was nearly two; i was one of those 'old enough to ask' folks, and ask she did (beg, more like.) her eyes watered a bit, but she didn't cry, & just wanted to admire herself in the mirror.

i would never just cavalierly do it to a baby, or a child not old enough to know what was up, but she had it explained to her, persisted in requesting, had no problems, & it was not a big deal. some 2 yr olds wouldn't understand what was involved. she did.

my pet peeve is comparing it to circumcision. it is not analogous at all. plenty of people voluntarily get pierced. damned few with any choice in the matter get circumcised. female genital mutilation is analogous to male genital mutilation. not piercing. boys have ears, & girls have genitals. you don't have to go out on a limb to find an opposite sex comparison.

but the tongue had to wait till she was 18.  (and it is, lol.)


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## sarathan (Jun 28, 2005)

I'm annoyed at how piercing your daughter's ears keeps being referred to as "mainstream". Sheesh, I know plenty of mainstream mama's who would find this appalling. It's about doing something to your child's body without his/her consent, which I don't agree with.


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## bobandjess99 (Aug 1, 2005)

No way i have time to read 16 pages of posts, but i believe my daughters body is her own, and it is not my right to permanently damage it by putting holes in it. I would however, get them if my daughter asked, even if she were young. I actually had to horribly disappoint my mother, who had (without my knowledge) been planning to get dd's ears pierced for her first birthday, and was crushed when i told her no and explained my reasoning.


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

I'm sure no one will read this now, but I've said it before and I'll say it again, I wish I'd never gotten my ears mutilated. That's what it looks like to me when I see those holes in my ears. The thought of hanging metal off of my flesh is repugnant to me. I haven't worn earrings for more than 2 decades, but those holes are still there


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## AmazoniaBelly (Jun 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *hippiemomma*
people who call their daughter's princess is just wrong.... might as well call her Paris Hilton.









I really like that you said that....


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## AmazoniaBelly (Jun 19, 2004)

Also...I had my ears pierced when I was about a month old. The holes will always be there. Since becoming a mother I have asked my own Mother how she was able to make that decision or even be present when my ears were pierced and she doesn't really have an answer. I know she did it for HERSELF. I am not mad ...in fact I love piercings. But is is still a bit strange.


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## mj1430622 (Dec 31, 2005)

I had my dd's ears pierced a few weeks ago and have absolutely no problems with them or her playing with them. Mia is 10 months old. My mother had mine done at 4 years old and I wished she would have done them when I was a baby.

My husband and I agreed on this together and believe that teething hurts them more than getting their ear's pierced. Come on ladies...what girl or woman doesn't like some bling-bling on them????? Really, the holes are so tiny that if they decide to take them out when they're older, it's not a big deal and there's not a huge hole left afterwards. But, I'll bet you 9 times out of 10 they'll want more of them. One's to match their outfit, a gift from a boyfriend or daddy, etc. To each their own...everyone has their own opinion and usually thinks it's the best one or right one. But, we woudln't all be unique and different if we all agreed on the same issues..would we?? And nobody should tell you how to raise your own child..do it your way and forget about what everybody else says!!!


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)




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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

fwiw my mom pierced mine when i was about 3... my ears promptly swelled up and started itching because I was allergic to the metal. Even now, at 27 the holes are still there and occassionally form little bumps of "puss" (tmi i know, and i dont wear earrings, they just kinda do that for some reason) that I have to clean so they dont get infected or start hurting. It may be just a couple little holes to others, but to some its a lifelong annoyance to deal with without their consent.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mj1430622*
I had my dd's ears pierced a few weeks ago and have absolutely no problems with them or her playing with them. Mia is 10 months old. My mother had mine done at 4 years old and I wished she would have done them when I was a baby.

My husband and I agreed on this together and believe that teething hurts them more than getting their ear's pierced. Come on ladies...what girl or woman doesn't like some bling-bling on them????? Really, the holes are so tiny that if they decide to take them out when they're older, it's not a big deal and there's not a huge hole left afterwards. But, I'll bet you 9 times out of 10 they'll want more of them. One's to match their outfit, a gift from a boyfriend or daddy, etc. To each their own...everyone has their own opinion and usually thinks it's the best one or right one. But, we woudln't all be unique and different if we all agreed on the same issues..would we?? And nobody should tell you how to raise your own child..do it your way and forget about what everybody else says!!!

Are you kidding? Sorry, but this woman does not want bling bling on her. I had my ears pierced when I was 5 and the holes did not grow properly and had to be redone. It is very common for a baby to rip her earrings out, damaging her ear, and even choking on the earrings. Not to mention the risk of infection.

I bet teething hurts more than piercing, but teething pain is inevitable and actually accomplishes something important.

Plus, a baby has no way to rationalize the pain like an older child can.


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## mama_nomad (Apr 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spicey Momma*
it isn't permanent......

I had no idea this was such a touchy subject. Next time I do something mainstream to my kids I am keeping my mouth shut :X

Now you know! I fyou want to find at least a littl emore support you should go over to the pierced and tattoed tribe thread, but even there.....yikes.

i couldn't even begin to go through all of these posts, but here is a recent dicussion and a lot of my advice is in there about how to get the ears done, for safety reasons. if you did it with a gun, and have "mall jewelry" then there is a chance of infection.

I was also completely shocked at the controversy against it but i see now how the majority of the "natural living" community sees it.... i just don't agree. it as a very special ritual to our girls, and the way we do it is not painful. so most of the arguements are mute.

here's another recent thread, that is shorter and my two cents is in that supports those who want to adorn there babies:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...0&page=2&pp=20


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

To all those newly posting: This thread is more than a year old!


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## mj1430622 (Dec 31, 2005)

So, you're saying it's O.K. to let an older child get their ears pierced because they can rationalize the pain?? PLEASE!!! I'm sorry to hear you had problems with yours..but it's all about where you get them done and how you take care of them that can also have an effect. Several medical articles have stated that younger children/babies are less likely to have problems with infection than older ones. Also, can you honestly say that you wear nothing that sparkles? A ring, watch, bracelet, etc?


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## mama_nomad (Apr 11, 2005)

yeah we've been figuring that out.......

wonder how the OPer is doing....


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

edited cause im a dork









move along, nothing to see....


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## mj1430622 (Dec 31, 2005)

I'm new to this and realize this thread is over a year old...but it's a never ending issue.


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## mj1430622 (Dec 31, 2005)

Nope, never posted under any other name. I'm not afraid to voice my opinion, just like all of you are doing. I don't need to hide under another name.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mj1430622*
Also, can you honestly say that you wear nothing that sparkles? A ring, watch, bracelet, etc?

None of which put holes in the body.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mj1430622*
So, you're saying it's O.K. to let an older child get their ears pierced because they can rationalize the pain?? PLEASE!!! I'm sorry to hear you had problems with yours..but it's all about where you get them done and how you take care of them that can also have an effect. Several medical articles have stated that younger children/babies are less likely to have problems with infection than older ones. Also, can you honestly say that you wear nothing that sparkles? A ring, watch, bracelet, etc?

No I don't wear anything that sparkles. Sorry to disappoint your view of what a woman should be or should like.

Yes I do think there is a world of difference of doing something to a baby who cannot consent and cannot understand than to doingit to an older child who wants it done and can understand that it can hurt.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Also, I got them done at a reutable place and took good care of them. Neither of things can affect how a hole can grow in one's ear. It all depends on the way one's ears grow.

I just can't understand why someone would do something painful to a baby because they like bling bling.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama_nomad*
here's another recent thread, that is shorter and my two cents is in that supports those who want to adorn there babies:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...0&page=2&pp=20

I read your posts in this thread, mama_nomad and wanted to say a few things:

I've had a lot of piercings by very good piercers, including my ears multiple times and I have a very high tolerance for pain. The ears DO hurt, even with a great piercer, no guns, etc. Yes, I imagine there are people who had no pain, just as there are people who say it didn't hurt to pierce their nipples. It's a pretty safe generalization, though, to say that when one pokes holes through the body with a needle, it hurts. And let's remember that babies are even more sensitive to pain than we adults are.

Also, about the circumcision comparison: It isn't "BS." Yes, one is much more severe than the other, but both are irreversible (often in the case of ears, always in the case of circumcision) cosmetic alterations done without the child's consent.


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## SunRayeMomi (Aug 27, 2005)

Wow this thread is kind of a convenient find for me right now. I am currently struggling with giving in to my 4.5 yo's wishes to have pierced ears. She has been asking now for almost a month. I mentioned it to my Dp's sister and she said it's "best to do it when they are infants because they don't feel the pain as much"







To which I responded "I disagree with you, I believe they feel it at least just as much, however they can't vocalize their pain as an older child can." And she replied "Exactly, and I won't have to listen to the whining of a young child if I do it when she's an infant."

Well, whatever I dropped it. Basically she was saying it would probably be easier on _herself_ if she did it when her daughter was a baby, but that says nothing of whether or not it's a good _idea_ to allow a child to make the decision for her/himself at age 5, 8, 10, 13.









It may be more appropriate to allow her to do it when _she_ wants to, and not as an infant when she can't even voice an opinion







But still, do I think my 4 or 5 year old can have an educated opinion and be allowed to make a decision about something such as this? I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out. I myself first got pierced at 10. Then 12. Then three more at 14. Then one more at 16. Then another at 18 and the last only 2 or 3 years ago.







Who knows how many I would have if I started at infancy!


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## mj1430622 (Dec 31, 2005)

Well, I understand it's been a month, but it's obviously still a touchy subject, otherwise no one would be posting.


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## SunRayeMomi (Aug 27, 2005)

Now that I bother to read some of the posts.....







Maybe I should have started my own thread??? Anyhoo.







:


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## mama_nomad (Apr 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SunRayeMomi*
Wow this thread is kind of a convenient find for me right now. I am currently struggling with giving in to my 4.5 yo's wishes to have pierced ears. She has been asking now for almost a month. I mentioned it to my Dp's sister and she said it's "best to do it when they are infants because they don't feel the pain as much"







To which I responded "I disagree with you, I believe they feel it at least just as much, however they can't vocalize their pain as an older child can." And she replied "Exactly, and I won't have to listen to the whining of a young child if I do it when she's an infant."

Well, whatever I dropped it. Basically she was saying it would probably be easier on _herself_ if she did it when her daughter was a baby, but that says nothing of whether or not it's a good _idea_ to allow a child to make the decision for her/himself at age 5, 8, 10, 13.









It may be more appropriate to allow her to do it when _she_ wants to, and not as an infant when she can't even voice an opinion







But still, do I think my 4 or 5 year old can have an educated opinion and be allowed to make a decision about something such as this? I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out. I myself first got pierced at 10. Then 12. Then three more at 14. Then one more at 16. Then another at 18 and the last only 2 or 3 years ago.







Who knows how many I would have if I started at infancy!









obviously it is your decision. I am just here to tell you to do your research if you decide to do it and go to safepiercing.org to find a reputable studio, okay?

NO GUNS OR CHEAP JEWELRY


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mj1430622*
Well, I understand it's been a month, but it's obviously still a touchy subject, otherwise no one would be posting.

Only reason people are "still posting" is that when you dug up this year-old thread, it auto-emails us to tell us that a thread we've looked at has been updated.

You are coming across very confrontationally.


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## SunRayeMomi (Aug 27, 2005)

Right on


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Several posts have been removed from this thread for violating the User Agreement (bold mine):

Quote:

You are expected to avoid the following when you post:
1. Posting in a disrespectful, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including *casting of suspicion upon a person*, invasion of privacy, humiliation, demeaning criticism, namecalling, personal attack, or in any way which violates the law.
Further posts violating the UA will receive alerts.


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mj1430622*
So, you're saying it's O.K. to let an older child get their ears pierced because they can rationalize the pain?? PLEASE!!! I'm sorry to hear you had problems with yours..but it's all about where you get them done and how you take care of them that can also have an effect. Several medical articles have stated that younger children/babies are less likely to have problems with infection than older ones. Also, can you honestly say that you wear nothing that sparkles? A ring, watch, bracelet, etc?

If you like the 'bling bling' so much, why not just keep it on your own body? Why force your fashion beliefs on your child in a painful way?

BTW, I don't wear any jewelry and thousands and thousands of other women don't either. Don't ASSume that all women like 'sparkly' things.


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## mj1430622 (Dec 31, 2005)

Come on everbody!! Give me a break. All I wanted to do was share a positive experience with everyone for those of you out there considering the possibility of doing the same with your children. That's all.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

well mj, you're doing it on the wrong site.


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kathryn*
If you like the 'bling bling' so much, why not just keep it on your own body? Why force your fashion beliefs on your child in a painful way?









:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kathryn*
Don't ASSume that all women like 'sparkly' things.









:

I do have pierced ears (I avoid "sparkly" jewelry though







too loud for me - and all the jewelry I wear is 2 earrings and a plain Irish wedding band), but I made an informed decision at the age of 17 to get pierced. My daughter will be able to make an informed decision when I (and her papa too...) feel she is old enough to decide (she will NOT have to wait as long as my parents made me wait though). I would be very unhappy with my parents if they had forced the decision on me as a baby just as I would be very unhappy had I been a boy (I would have been circ'd like my brothers - though my parents are very anti-infant-ear-piercing).

love and peace.


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## Diane~Alena (Aug 23, 2004)

My daughters all have their ears peirced. I made the choice to do this for my children because they were bald little babies and even drapped in pink everyone called them "what cute little boys" The thought that it was better done sooner rather then later came to mind for the girls. I wanted to have it done early enough that they didn't fiddle with them and get them infected.I bought all my girls plain gold hoops and they wear them without any thought. My older twin daughters now have their own collection of earings and they change them when they want to go with their outfits. In our family peircing is not anything bad, in fact most of our group has nose rings, belly rings, and tonge rings. My husband is even going in to get a prince albert. We have the idea that peircing isn't forever if you don't want it you take it out so no big deal. I think it is a very personal thing for each family, you can't tell us it is wrong and I can't tell you it is right. It is our own choice.

OOPs I forgot to add that my girls weren't bothered by the peircing process at all my one daughter never even woke up. I think this is so different then cutting of a childs foreskin, my son is intact and so are my girls my girls just have a little gold in their ears.


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## mama_nomad (Apr 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Diane~Alena*
My daughters all have their ears peirced. I made the choice to do this for my children because they were bald little babies and even drapped in pink everyone called them "what cute little boys" The thought that it was better done sooner rather then later came to mind for the girls. I wanted to have it done early enough that they didn't fiddle with them and get them infected.I bought all my girls plain gold hoops and they wear them without any thought. My older twin daughters now have their own collection of earings and they change them when they want to go with their outfits. In our family peircing is not anything bad, in fact most of our group has nose rings, belly rings, and tonge rings. My husband is even going in to get a prince albert. We have the idea that peircing isn't forever if you don't want it you take it out so no big deal. I think it is a very personal thing for each family, you can't tell us it is wrong and I can't tell you it is right. It is our own choice.

OOPs I forgot to add that my girls weren't bothered by the peircing process at all my one daughter never even woke up. I think this is so different then cutting of a childs foreskin, my son is intact and so are my girls my girls just have a little gold in their ears.

Amen to that (and that is coming from an aethiest!) Thank you for pointing out that piercing ears doesn't have to be a painful experience when done right. Most posters that are against it, i've noticed is because they personally had a bad experience and project that onto others. it is very easy to do it the wrong way and get infected, etc....it takes research and expertise to make it a special and healthy experience. kudos to you!


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

I just don't understand how causing an infant pain can be a "special and healthy" experience for her. The specialness is yours, not theirs. They can't understand why the pain is happening. They can't understand that there is any purpose.


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## lasciate (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SunRayeMomi*
But still, do I think my 4 or 5 year old can have an educated opinion and be allowed to make a decision about something such as this? I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out.

I was about your daughter's age when I started begging my mom to get my ears pierced. She wanted me to wait until I was 12, like she had to. Well, I ended up getting them done at age 7 because my manipulative grandmother handed me money and told me it was specifically for getting my ears pierced. She even had a pair of earrings for me. So my mom took me and had it done in a salon, with the guns (she would have preferred to have her grandmother [my greatgrandmother] do it with a needle, but her hands were getting shaky by then), and it hurt. I specifically recall sitting in the chair, staring at the mirror crying after they did the first ear. I didn't move a muscle until both were done, and like little kids do I completely lied to everyone who asked if it hurt









Do I have a point in all this? I think young children can make an important decision like this, but since some do change their minds with the wind I wouldn't do it the first time they ask. Maybe set a date in the future (next birthday or for Christmas or some other special event) and if they still want it by then, they will bring it up without you reminding them and you'll know they really do want it.

I'm glad I had them done at a young age, sure they were a pain at times but when I hit my apathetic teens I went years without wearing earrings and they never closed up. Now that I think about it, I've had them pierced for over 20 years now!


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## mama_nomad (Apr 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
I just don't understand how causing an infant pain can be a "special and healthy" experience for her. The specialness is yours, not theirs. They can't understand why the pain is happening. They can't understand that there is any purpose.

AGAIN not neccessarily painful, though i know it is hard for most to understand. passing a hollow needle through a fleshy lobe is NOT anything near a shot or circ...the sensation is uncomfortable and your baby looks at you and look back them with a look of love and reassuance and they know its okay.
rites of passage can be trust building, which is another thing that is hard to understand in our culture. since the beginning of time cultures have practiced body modification rituals on their tribes. as many great and wonderful things the natural community has achieved, like natural drug free childbirth for example, we have really attached to the idea that your body is your body and most would dare not impose anything unconsentual on our childs body, but what are we missing? we certainly have no problem imposing our ideas on to our children. it seems that recently, we have come to view pain as ONLY a negative experience, which is in some ways harmful, i think. we embrace the pain of childbirth, and we spend our whole lives building up a tolerance of pain (physical and emotional) to make us capable of motherhood. is it so out there to introduce a small amount of pain to our children in a cultural context, to assert that this is my beautiful child, i think she is the most wonderful creature worthy of precious metals....for those of us that chose this particular path, it makes our children feel like part of something as they get older. granted they may reject it, just as they may reject the other ideas they were raised with, and they should be loved nonetheless.

let's not be afraid to create meaningful expereince for our children that involve obstacles, and an opportunity be viewed as part of a group, and build trust and confidence.......why does it have to make medical/logical sense--? spirituality doesn't....


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## Kathryn (Oct 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama_nomad*
AGAIN not neccessarily painful, though i know it is hard for most to understand. passing a hollow needle through a fleshy lobe is NOT anything near a shot or circ...the sensation is uncomfortable and your baby looks at you and look back them with a look of love and reassuance and they know its okay.


Very rarely is it a hollow tube and it's very painful when it's not. Just ask Oprah, she got her ears pierced on national TV last year.
The sensation is far from 'uncomfortable' when you use a piercing gun.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama_nomad*
AGAIN not neccessarily painful, though i know it is hard for most to understand. passing a hollow needle through a fleshy lobe is NOT anything near a shot or circ...the sensation is uncomfortable and your baby looks at you and look back them with a look of love and reassuance and they know its okay.

As I wrote in another post, I do understand. I've experienced piercing a lot, with hollow needles, in lobes and other places.

And I get what you're saying about the beauty and power of bonding through rituals. I really do. What I don't get is why so many rituals have to be painful to children.

When we experience the pain of childbirth or tattooing or piercing, it's something we have chosen and we understand that there is a result - that there is purpose. Infants don't have this understanding, so it's flawed reasoning to impose your rationale on them. I also think it's flawed to impose your pain experience on them - you, a person who has written that you've spent your whole life preparing yourself for pain. Infants don't have then benefit of those years and, as I said before, it's been proven that they feel pain more intensely than we do. This "no crying" thing is said by proponents of circumcision, as well. Boys sometimes don't cry not because it doesn't hurt but because they're in shock. It could very well be the same with a baby during ear piercing.

For me, my son's right to bodily integrity and my need to not be a source of discomfort for him vastly outweighs any cultural benefit that he might experience from doing something of this sort to him. We build community and promote inclusion through loving acts that don't cause him pain or permanently alter his body.


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## Diane~Alena (Aug 23, 2004)

I love the comment on passing on our Rituals. I cut my childrens hair, trims and styles is that wrong? Should I leave the hair growing untill they can make a choice as to what they want done long term? I cut my childrens hair and peirced my daughters ears to have them blend into our society. If I was in india I would put a dot on their forehead and a gold bracelt on their arm also. These are our rituals and I pass them on proudly to my daughters. If my daughters don't want to take part in this as they get older they can take out the earings and have a TINY little dot on their lobe. I have larger scars from medical procedures.

Oh I forgot to add that my children didn't suffer getting their ears pierced. My children did suffer from getting intubated after birth, blood tests, n/g tubes being put in, they suffered getting i.v.'s put in time and again due to their bodies inability to process food in their imature bodies. They did suffer many things to be alive today, one little poke for beauty was not at all a bother to them. When they look at their baby pictures they say how cute they were and those little gold hoops made them even cuter.


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## mama_nomad (Apr 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kathryn*
Very rarely is it a hollow tube and it's very painful when it's not. Just ask Oprah, she got her ears pierced on national TV last year.
The sensation is far from 'uncomfortable' when you use a piercing gun.

and the piercing community was outraged at the stupidity that someone with such a large staff as Oprah didn't have the sense or do enough research to have the done the right way. Guns would absolutely be outlawed if the Gun industry did not have there own team of lobbyists fighting to stay around. And the "Dr" (not a trained piercer mind you) that did them did them crooked! it was such a huge step backward for for a field that has been fighting so hard for the past 15 years to inform people about the safety of piercing. When oy chose the piercing you also get to chose who does it and with what! ALSO AGAIN the reason why a gun hurts os b/c while the gun is "poking the the hole" it is also beating the sh*t out of your flesh.

i'd just like to add that he place i am steaking from is from knowing about the experiences of over 100,000 clients in DH's business, so it's important to realize that your handful of experiences is your own. adolscence (and adults) have continually sought out rituals that they felt were lacking, without the knowledge of why or that it was an ancient act.

also about the point of why exposing pain experience onto children: my whole point was that people create painful rituals to feel they have some control, and children are a unit of a fmaily in this cuture until they are adults, so the reason why so every ancient culture have done this, it to make pain into something that is not only associated with negativity and accidents, but as a welcoming into a group. We push indepenence so heavily on american children...what are the costs?


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
For me, my son's right to bodily integrity and my need to not be a source of discomfort for him vastly outweighs any cultural benefit that he might experience from doing something of this sort to him. We build community and promote inclusion through loving acts that don't cause him pain or permanently alter his body.

Beautifully said! I think this is the heart of the issue. Thank you for your posts Dragonfly.


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## my2girlsmama (Oct 21, 2004)

Personally? I think it is cruel and painful and I would never disrespect my child's body in any way for the sake of "cute".


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Diane~Alena*
I love the comment on passing on our Rituals. I cut my childrens hair, trims and styles is that wrong? Should I leave the hair growing untill they can make a choice as to what they want done long term? I cut my childrens hair and peirced my daughters ears to have them blend into our society. If I was in india I would put a dot on their forehead and a gold bracelt on their arm also.

That has nothing to do with anything. Since when do haircuts and bracelets cause painful, permanent changes to a child's body?

A better comparison would be if I wanted to get my son's nipples pierced...or his penis. It's all piercing, right, so it's all OK!


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama_nomad*
..., and children are a unit of a fmaily in this cuture until they are adults, so the reason why so every ancient culture have done this, it to make pain into something that is not only associated with negativity and accidents, but as a welcoming into a group. We push indepenence so heavily on american children...what are the costs?


PBBTTTHTHH.















The American culture currently performs more painful "cultural" alterations per child than any other developed world. Look where it's gotten us!


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## alsoSarah (Apr 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama_nomad*
Most posters that are against it, i've noticed is because they personally had a bad experience and project that onto others.

I know that you said "most", and not "all", so that seems fair.

I didn't have a bad personal experience (other than choosing not to wear lobe jewlry as an adult, and rather wishing that I wasn't stuck with the permanent piercings anyway), but I'm against it as an issue of bodily integrity.

(And with with what I've learned from my experience working in the field of body modification, I can rant about piercing guns/hep risks, etc. for hours.... but that's not where I'm going here.)

Am I in the minority?

Those who are against it, have you had a bad personal experience?

alsoSarah


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alsoSarah*
..
Am I in the minority?

Those who are against it, have you had a bad personal experience?

alsoSarah

Nope. My ears were pierced when I was 5, by needle and ice at an old-fashioned parlor, after a year of me begging.
They have given me almost no problems and and I still wear earrings.
However, it was MY choice to do to MY body and I don't have the right to choose that for someone else.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alsoSarah*
Those who are against it, have you had a bad personal experience?

alsoSarah

Nope. All my personal experiences with piercing have been very positive. Pleasurable, even.

Mama_nomad - Your reasoning seems to be that we either perform these extreme rituals or our children are left hanging out in a vast world of independence that they're not ready for. It's really not one or the other.

Guns hurt not just because they're beating the heck out of your ears but also for the mere fact that they're putting a hole through your ears. Having had my lobes first done by a gun and later by hollow needles (once I knew better), my experience was that the level of pain was not much different. It's just the healing that was easier.

I find it very telling that all the piercers I've known have refused to pierce children, even with a parent's consent - not just for legal reasons but because of their inability to consent for themselves.


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alsoSarah*
I know that you said "most", and not "all", so that seems fair.

I didn't have a bad personal experience (other than choosing not to wear lobe jewlry as an adult, and rather wishing that I wasn't stuck with the permanent piercings anyway), but I'm against it as an issue of bodily integrity.

(And with with what I've learned from my experience working in the field of body modification, I can rant about piercing guns/hep risks, etc. for hours.... but that's not where I'm going here.)

Am I in the minority?

Those who are against it, have you had a bad personal experience?

alsoSarah

I had a great experience. My holes did grow in poorly and had to be redone, but I don't think of it as a bad experience at all.


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## mama_nomad (Apr 11, 2005)

alright, alright, so finally some of the positive-experience-but-still-anti are speaking, but let me tell you there are pages and pages of other threads of moms who are like "it sucked for me, and i'd never put my daughter through that...." they only know the gun and mall jewelry

everyday, my DH has someone come in who have struggled with painful piercings and bad reactions to jewelry etc, and they leave raving about how they never knew how different it can be, how painless being pierced with a needle (that is of course b/c he is incrediably fast). piercing a baby takes incredible skill as well, and can tell you that there are more piercers not doing it for that and legal reasons than for the consentual.

we make decisions for our children everyday regarding their health and body and mind. from an antropological view, we are the only culture that does not modify children for beauty/rite of passage, that it has been seen that is innate in us until it has been recently suppressed b/c of our huge swing into everyone as a individual, not as a tribe. circumcision, which i am against, began as a spiritual practice, a symbol of faith, but that is not why westerners do it.

(boingo82-- i am curious to hear of other examples of other "cultural alteration" that americans perform--other that circ)

piercing (and stretching in other cultures) ears does in NO WAY COME CLOSE to irreverisably removing a major piece of a males sexual pleasure organ. so why did every single other culture (without the knowlegde that others where doing it too) include thier babies in bodily alterations? there is a spiritual aspect to all of this, a need to do things that don't make medical sense....the only time that children experience pain then is when they fall or teeth, all of these out the parents and childs control. people have since the beginning created painful rituals to take some control over their pain and their bodies.

okay, i am out for a while, obviously this is a fave topic of mine but i'd still like to check in later and see what some of you had to say. also thank you for keeping the recent postings fair and "non-trolly"


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama_nomad*
from an antropological view, we are the only culture that does not modify children for beauty/rite of passage, that it has been seen that is innate in us until it has been recently suppressed b/c of our huge swing into everyone as a individual, not as a tribe.

That is a pretty big claim, any proof?


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## Monkeyfeet (Feb 5, 2005)

No opinion on other's doing it to their own dc. Just my own story.
While I was on maternity leave with dd, dd and I met a friend at the mall. DD was almost 3 months old. So a little background about this friend.
She had a TBI (traumatic Brain Injury) a few years As a result, she is very spontaneous and does not think things through. She can also become very emotional and will perseverant on things for awhile (all can be quite common with TBIs). She has 3 girls and has gotten all of their ears pierced at a young age. She asked me what I thought about her doing so after my dd was born. So I did not want to get her upset, so I just said that it was really cute but I could not sit through it with my own dd. Ok, so back to maternity leave and the day at the mall. She knew that I really wanted to try on some new clothing so she said that she would walk dd around for 20 minutes (dd was asleep), but if she woke up then she would come right back. Well when she came back, yup you guessed it dd's ears were pierced. I was BOILING, but in my heart I know that before the TBI she would never have done that. She did sense that I was a little upset.

Well I kept the earrings in for about a month, but on my dd they really bothered me, so I took them out. Now at 14 months you can still slightly tell that they were pierced. We will have them done again when/if she asks.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

I have several piercings and tattoos as does dh. None were bad experiences. I still have them all except for my naval piercing that had to go when I was pg. No complications. I have upmost respect for the piercing profession.

That said, I would never ever pierce my dd's ears without her consent. Just because it did not hurt me does not mean it will not hurt her. she has her entire life to cover her body with bling if she wants. But she is too little to even know what it is and I would feel awful if I did it and she grew up not wanting it. Yes, they grow closed, but there is always a mark. Not to mention the babies that get them accidently ripped out or infected and have permanent scarring or extreme pain. And then there are the freak cases of babies that remember that one traumatic moment in thier babyhood. I see absolutely zero reason to do this. If your girl is bald, tape a bow to her head.....don't poke holes in it!!!!!! I can see it in some very specific cultural situations....but do not tell me it is an american cultural experience. Why not wait until they can consent? I mean really, why not?


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *waterproofmascara*
My Little Miss is begging to have her ears pierced. I have never mentioned it to her, but she loves helping me pick out which earrings to wear in the morning, and I guess she got the idea from there.
She'll be 3 in December, so I am planning on having it done then if she hasn't changed her mind.

FYI a story...

a friend's DD (same age) was asking at the same age.

She had one ear done and then didn't want the other one done









Mom said, "Sorry honey, we started it, you have to finish it."









Explain that to your DD.

OP - what's done is done.









I would not have done it (your DD is already cute!)

Mine were done in infancy (I am Latina) and the holes were never centered.







: I had to get another hole done.


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## polka123 (Nov 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama_nomad*
piercing (and stretching in other cultures) ears does in NO WAY COME CLOSE to irreverisably removing a major piece of a males sexual pleasure organ.

ITA !!
















I grew up around mostly Latinas & Hispanics & I loved that they did their DDs right around birth.
I had DD's ears pierced @ 6 mos & would have done it sooner had I had the money.

I also took her to get her 1st tatt @ 16 or 17 yo
When she was 18, she chose more body piercings on her own







& more tatts.

No one feels violated or scarred over an ear hole in MY family

if I ever have another DD, she will have her ears done









DS is intact & *would never get any DS circ'd*

I don't like the insinuation that parents that pierce are bad.

MY KID, MY Choices







- your kid your choices
SIMPLE as that.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

I can't believe I am being sucked in to this thread again. Oh well.

What if they don't want pierced ears? What if you have put holes in their ears and made them wear earrings when they turn into young women who don't want them? Before you tell me that all women want them, let me say I don't and many others don't. I don't like earrings and if I ever go somewhere like a wedding as the bridesmaid, I get clip on earrings. Perhaps you could put clip on earrings onto your children (and babies







sick!) and leave decisions regarding their bodies to them when they get older. If you must "bling" them, clip it on. I don't see why it is even necessary to "pierce" a child through the flesh when there are alternatives in bling.


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## alsoSarah (Apr 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama_nomad*
piercing a baby takes incredible skill as well, and can tell you that *there are more piercers not doing it for that and legal reasons than for the consentual*.

This runs contrary to my experiences, but I would never argue that it might not be true for some piercers.

alsoSarah


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama_nomad*
....the only time that children experience pain then is when they fall or teeth, all of these out the parents and childs control. people have since the beginning created painful rituals to take some control over their pain and their bodies.

Having an infant's ears pierced is _still_ entirely outside of the infant's control. And, I have no need to make permanent marks on my dd's ears in order to "take some control" over her body and her pain! My god - what a terrifying mindset. I personally dislike the look of earrings on babies and very small children, so the "cute" factor doesn't even exist for me. I've never understood the fascination with poking holes in an infant's body for decoration. Complications can ensue, there is often (I'm tempted to say "usually") a permanent scar, no matter how small. I don't see how this is a choice I have any business making for my dd.

Pain is...pain. I don't see it as good or bad. It's no fun. It serves a purpose. It's usually a signal that something is wrong with my body. (The pain of labour and childbirth is different - I don't really understand why the body interprets birth as pain.) Ear piercing hurts, because it damages the ears. I'm into earrings, so I chose (at 12) to have mine pierced - but I don't see that as a decision I can make for anybody else.

I don't see that individuality or independence have ever been "pushed" on me. I've always done my own thing, and found my own road. My parents never pushed me to be like the other kids, but I can't interpret their refusal to push me in the direction everyone else going as a "push" into individulalism. I was _allowed_ to be an individual, not pushed into being one. I try to parent the same way, and whether or not there will be earrings in dd's ears is not my decision to make.


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## ShelleyMom2in2 (Aug 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *polka123*

MY KID, MY Choices







- your kid your choices
SIMPLE as that.

what about your kids choice?


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## Diane~Alena (Aug 23, 2004)

When would the child be of age to make that choice? The government in Canada says you can do it at 19 by your own will. Should we wait that long for what is main stream female right of passage? You may chose that for your child and that is your right. I have my opinions on it though to. I think it is very pretty and I feel bad for kids that have to wait. Clip on earings hurt and the hurt isn't one little poke it is a long pinch that lasts as long as you wear the earings. Stickers contain chemicals and can cause a rash. My daughters never cried, and if they don't want to wear earings when they are older they can chose to let the holes grow over with alot less hassle then regrowing foreskin. I think this is personal choice, I don't see it having a large impact like removing a boys foreskin. We all try to make our children beautifull. People is Mexico hundreds of years ago used to strap boards to their babies heads to give them attractive skull shapes this process probably gave the children horrible head aches and left them changed forever in a huge way. Chinese girls had their feet bound to give them feet that were culteraly attractive. Girls in Africa had necklaces added to their necks to make them streched out and long, the idea of beauty there. Ear peircing is Small on the global scale of beauty.

As for the comment about the peircing a childs penis or nipples those peircings are PAINFULL and the scar tissue is horrible it's like comparing







and







:.
to explain my hair comment: My son hated his last hair cut, he cried and said it pulled at his scalp. He wants long hair and we feel that it isn't apropriate for a boy his age. I was following my own feelings and trying to make him attractive to others in our society the same reason I peirced my daughters ears(you can see how my hair cutting comment fits in now I hope)

Diversity is the thing that makes this world so special. If we were all the same, with the same practices and beliefs what a boring world this would be.

This may not be your choice but it isn't a horrible child abuse for the sake of the mother. Many children love earings and enjoy having them.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...p/503bd69d.jpg

I edited this and I hope it makes sence, my two year old is on my lap so please excuse me for any problems with my post


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

I haven't worn earrings in at least ten years and my holes have not grown over.

You feel bad for kids thatd on't have their ears pierced?

Wow.


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## Diane~Alena (Aug 23, 2004)

Quote:

I feel bad for kids that have to *wait*
not for kids that don't have it done. I have had most of my peircing holes grow over I couldn't get a ring in my old nose hole again if I tried.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *polka123*
MY KID, MY Choices







- your kid your choices
SIMPLE as that.

i disagree that we have the right to make these kinds of decisions for our children.

MY body MY choice.

have you ever heard the phrase "your rights end where my nose begins"? it's as true here as ever.

the body modification of ANY child WITHOUT their informed consent is wrong, no matter the reason that their parent or caregiver or society places on it. whether it is for religious reasons or aesthetics ~ the argument is invalidated either way. fwiw i also don't believe that people should have a right to circumcise their child because their religion dictates it.

NOTHING should be done to another person ~ *especially* one who is unable to give consent themselves ~ just because it is a ritual or expected of them by society or their religion or their family tradition.


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## Diane~Alena (Aug 23, 2004)

disagree that we have the right to make these kinds of decisions for our children.

Quote:

MY body MY choice.

have you ever heard the phrase "your rights end where my nose begins"? it's as true here as ever.

the body modification of ANY child WITHOUT their informed consent is wrong, no matter the reason that their parent or caregiver or society places on it. whether it is for religious reasons or aesthetics ~ the argument is invalidated either way. fwiw i also don't believe that people should have a right to circumcise their child because their religion dictates it.

NOTHING should be done to another person ~ *especially* one who is unable to give consent themselves ~ just because it is a ritual or expected of them by society or their religion or their family tradition.
I know what you are saying but as a parent I make choices to change my children each and every day. Choices that effect their futures and present. I chose to left my son intact, he may later be angry with me for that since we live in an area were the magority of boys are not intact. Getting the procedure done later is much worse then as a child I am told. I chose not to get some vaccinations for my children if they get sick It will be because of my choice. I chose surgery for my daughters eyes, this left her without peripheral vision. As a parent I make choices every day, these choices shape my children making them into the adults they will one day be. Adults that will be somewhat in their parents image, passing on the values and beliefs to another generation. If I believed god wanted my sons foreskin gone I would want the freedom granted to do what I thought was gods will.

This is about freedom of choice and seeing what realy is harmfull to a child. Not feeding a child is harmfull, not educating a child or beating a child is abuse. We have to be able to see that just because we don't agree doesn't make it wrong for everyone.


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Diane~Alena*
As for the comment about the peircing a childs penis or nipples those peircings are PAINFULL and the scar tissue is horrible it's like comparing







and







:.

I have no more scar tissue in my nipples than in my ears.

Quote:

to explain my hair comment: My son hated his last hair cut, he cried and said it pulled at his scalp. He wants long hair and we feel that it isn't apropriate for a boy his age. I was following my own feelings and trying to make him attractive to others in our society the same reason I peirced my daughters ears(you can see how my hair cutting comment fits in now I hope)

Diversity is the thing that makes this world so special. If we were all the same, with the same practices and beliefs what a boring world this would be.
These two comments seem completely contradictory to me.







On the one hand, you want a child who fits society's idea of attractiveness. On the other hand, you promote diversity?


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Diane~Alena*
Getting the procedure [circumcision] done later is much worse then as a child I am told.

The intactivist in me just has to point out that that's completely untrue.


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## charmander (Dec 30, 2003)

Why would a 14 month old need to wear earrings? I'm not being snarky, I just don't understand why a baby needs jewelry. Why not just buy yourself a new pair of earrings and leave her ears alone?

*No way* would I have 2 holes put into my child's body. When she is old enough and wants it done, then it will be her choice. 14 months old is not old enough to make that choice.


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## charmander (Dec 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Diane~Alena*
I know what you are saying but as a parent I make choices to change my children each and every day. Choices that effect their futures and present. I chose to left my son intact, he may later be angry with me for that since we live in an area were the magority of boys are not intact. Getting the procedure done later is much worse then as a child I am told. I chose not to get some vaccinations for my children if they get sick It will be because of my choice. I chose surgery for my daughters eyes, this left her without peripheral vision.

These examples are not examples of cosmetically unnecessary procedures, which ear piercing is. Do you not see the difference?


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## Diane~Alena (Aug 23, 2004)

Quote:

These examples are not examples of cosmetically unnecessary procedures, which ear piercing is. Do you not see the difference?
these were examples of choices that change a child in the context of "do we have the right to make choices that change our children" I am am sorry you didn't see that the way it was intended.

Quote:

"The intactivist in me just has to point out that that's completely untrue."
Have you had it done? My cousin had his at age 14 and he said it was hell for weeks and he remembers it clear as a bell. I doubt men who had it done in infancy can tell you how it felt. Plus he was in bed for a week unable to do anything. Some parents of boys in our group did it to their sons and the babies nursed and slept ok afterwards. That is what I mean by worse.

Quote:

these two comments seem completely contradictory to me. On the one hand, you want a child who fits society's idea of attractiveness. On the other hand, you promote diversity?
I want my child to fit into the culture we live and take part in. there are many different cultures in this world thus making it diverse. You and I could live in the same town and our cultures could be different as night and day. We are peirced and tattooed and have friends the same to have my kids like the Amish would make them feel like they didn't fit in, I would like them to be able to feel part of our group while they grow up. Plus I am passing on our customs this to us is important. I wouldn't give a West Coast Choppers shirt to my nieghbors children because they are straight cut people who don't have that type of thing. I love that this world is like that with many different types of people. We all make different choices because of our different value systems. Do you understand now how we can "fit in" the different cultures in this Diverse world?


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Diane~Alena*
Have you had it done? My cousin had his at age 14 and he said it was hell for weeks and he remembers it clear as a bell. I doubt men who had it done in infancy can tell you how it felt. Plus he was in bed for a week unable to do anything. Some parents of boys in our group did it to their sons and the babies nursed and slept ok afterwards. That is what I mean by worse.

1) It's been scientifically proven that infants feel pain more acutely. 2) It's common for infants to not be given appropriate anesthesia. 3) The process is generally more involved for an infant because the foreskin has not separated from the glans. So, whereas with an older by who has already retracted or an adult there is cutting, with an infant there is crushing, ripping, and cutting.

Add to that the inability to comprehend the "why" of the pain (adding a psychologically torturous element) and the likelihood that the infant will not be given appropriate pain relief after until healed, whereas a 14-year-old could ask for it, I think it's pretty safe to say that it's probably *worse* for an infant than a teenager or adult.

If you're further interested in discussing this, feel free to venture over to the Whole Penis board (a.k.a. "The Case Against Circumcision").









Quote:

Do you understand now how we can "fit in" the different cultures in this Diverse world?
I do. So much so that I embrace diversity in my own family and in my circle of friends. Ds is a long-haired boy and I'm somewhat of a "weirdo" mama. We have friends who look like us and friends who look like they walked out of a J. Crew ad. I'm pierced and tattooed. My child isn't. I guess I want my child to know that fitting is more about your insides than how you adorn yourself... and I want him to know that what he does with his body is his own choice in his own time.


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## rootzdawta (May 22, 2005)

Wow . . . what a lot of posts. I got to about page 8 and gave up so maybe someone has said this already . . .

My parents wouldn't let me get my ears pierced for religious reasons. My parents even went so far as to say that over their dead bodies would their grandchildren have pierced ears. Well, when I turned 18 and left the house, I went piercing crazy and pierced then pierced so more. I knew then that if I had a baby girl, I would pierce her ears just as soon as the doctor gave the okay.

Fast forward to now: I have a baby boy and made the decision to leave him intact after much, researching reasoning, arguing, and soul searching. I realized that if I couldn't circumcise my son in good conscience, how could I pierce my daughter's ears? I leave the decision up to them.

But that was my conclusion and it gives me peace within. As with every decision, the only option is to do the research, weigh the pros and cons and do what gives you peace within. I can't determine that for you nor can I judge you just as long as you've done the work to make the decision.


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## Diane~Alena (Aug 23, 2004)

I guess what I am trying to say, trying and failing, every example I use gets attacked missing the point behind it. I have three girls all have peircings, my husband and I have them and so do all our freinds and all the kids growing up with my girls. I did it for my girls because I found it beautiful. My girls didn't cry nor did the peircings get infected. I know if they chose later to take them out they can. I however and pretty sure that my kids will follow it up with more just like the rest of us, they are already voicing that desire. I don't feel my children need these earings to be accepted but they are part of our little culture and I want my children to be part of that. I do not like hearing the example of this being like circumcising a boy. My daughters ear lobes are not cut off, this doesn't effect her sexual enjoyment later in life(please god don't freak out and quote what you read about sex and circumstion I beg you to see what I mean by this example). I again speak of diversity and ask that other respect the actions of other mothers. We all make different choices for different reasons. I respect that this isn't for some mothers and I have read and try to respect their reasons as to why I only ask for the same in return.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

Well, I guess that is how we disagree. I would not cut a childs hair without their consent. I would not poke holes in one without thier consent. I don't care if he/she were the last person on earth without holes in ears or short hair. It is their body! Do you really want to send the message that we should do things that hurt to "fit in"? I WOULD help my dd get her ears pierced if SHE decided she wanted it done at any age. I would explain to her the procedure and that it WILL hurt and that it IS permanent, then let her decide. I would do it now at 2.5. She is old enough to understand pain. I would probably take her to see it done so I knew she fully understood. Anyway, I think it is clear to everyone including you that there is a difference between medical choices and cosmetic. Your argument holds no weight.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Here is what I think the basic sides of this argument are: 1) it is an alteration of someone else's body who cannot speak for themselves, thus not good and 2) it is a beautiful and culturally appropriate and acceptable decoration of a body. I think that that correlation with circumcision is incorrect in that it doesn't impede some sort of function in adult life, but correct in that it is a permanent and usually painful alteration of someone who cannot speak for themselves' body.

So on the one hand some of you are saying you do not think it is such an awful thing to have done and is so attractive, part of your culture, etc. and the other side is saying, no, we will not alter someone else's body period. end of story. I think that if the side that is arguind for piercing would simply concede that they have indeed altered someone else's body without their permission, then the argument would be pretty done with the two sides simply disagreeing and that being the end of it.

Discussing slightly older children, I think it is important to the side that is for informed consent that it be understood what truly informed consent is. A three year old is not mature enough to consent fully, I do not think. I think that the age where a child is mature enough to fully consent to something like ear piercing is probably very dependent on the child in question and thus a fixed age cannot be determined.

I was personally made to wait until I was 12, which ended up being about right, I think. I eve had my ears done in one of those awful mall places. But the holes are centered and all is well. Perhaps a couple of years younger would have been okay as well, but even though I could converse in full paragraphs with adults at age 2, my level of understanding of the outside world was still rather limited for some time, so 12 ended up being the most appropriate time for piercing. I have since also pierced my nose and I have 2 tattoos.

So, um, yeah.


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## mama_nomad (Apr 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Diane~Alena*
I guess what I am trying to say, trying and failing, every example I use gets attacked missing the point behind it. I have three girls all have peircings, my husband and I have them and so do all our freinds and all the kids growing up with my girls. I did it for my girls because I found it beautiful. My girls didn't cry nor did the peircings get infected. I know if they chose later to take them out they can. I however and pretty sure that my kids will follow it up with more just like the rest of us, they are already voicing that desire. I don't feel my children need these earings to be accepted but they are part of our little culture and I want my children to be part of that. I do not like hearing the example of this being like circumcising a boy. My daughters ear lobes are not cut off, this doesn't effect her sexual enjoyment later in life(please god don't freak out and quote what you read about sex and circumstion I beg you to see what I mean by this example). I again speak of diversity and ask that other respect the actions of other mothers. We all make different choices for different reasons. I respect that this isn't for some mothers and I have read and try to respect their reasons as to why I only ask for the same in return.

I will just say Amen to all of your posts and thank you for keeping up the pro-postings while i took a day off.

you underdstand and act upon something that is absoultely built-in to your parental instincts, and i mean instincts, not learned behavior. you said it yourself, all cultures want beautify their babies, *the essence of culture is tribal self-idenification from birth*-- parents are the decision makers of the child and there is nothing wrong with making choices for your child until he is grown up. sure many moms wait until their child can ask which is sometimes as early as 4 or 5, but can you tell me that child is capable of complete informed consent and adult decision making? no, they just want to wear jewelry. it's okay not to like jewelry, it's okay for not be girly, but adorning our families with jewelry has been part of us for thousands of years, it separates us from the animal kingdom.

if a child grows up to reject and idea a parent has "imposed" upon thenm thn that is an importnat part of maturity indeed to choose your own way, whether it be religion (please how many people do you know rejected the religion they were raised with?-TONS) or way of dress or earrings. we have swung so far to the other way about don't "body integrity" and freedom of choice, that we hardly give anything for our children to turn away from. you are also right about, when we choose to not vax we chose to subject our child to the possibility of getting a illness, if it's their body there choice, i don't wait to see if my child wants to breastfeed and co-sleep until they get older.....others may no see those as the same the decisions because they involve health and ear piercing is "un-neccessary" but again we feel the need to make purely spiritual, faith or beauty based decisions in the midst of these logical, medical ones, to have control of our bodies and of pain--and a baby is part of the family unit until it's grows up and can make thier own informed desicions for themselves and their own children . IT'S ANCIENT, not scary.

Diane~Alena--have you ever read any Joseph Campbell? You'd like him!

ps i'd like to add that one of the reasons it think the its-her-choice thing overblown is that i challenge you to find a support group for adult women that were pierced at birth without consent! circ on the other hand....now that is a therapy issue.

pss BUT it is also a beautiful thing to have ear piercing to be a rite of passage when she is older and have mom or grandma bring her in on a birthday or other milstone. it is so importnat to create rituals like those, and that is one reason i beleive the body mod industry has had so much success, it has provided a context and opportunity for people to create altering rituals from themselves in a culture that lacks clear rites of passage. my DH pierces moms and daughters all the time (navels, noses and ear cartilage...) when the daughter is 14 or so. so that's okay too. but i also think it's okay to pierce babies ears, i just want to people to know that it's importnat to create a ritual for your family. i can say for sure if you felt bad about doing it and did it anyway it would boogie the whole procedure and really be terrible for the child. when we did our daughters ears in our bedroom over looking the moutains, while rocking and singing and smiling, it was sacred and beautiful, and they knew the difference. babies are intelligent and sensitive, and receptive and they absolutely know that our intent was pure and the pain was different (in the case of our 2nd) from the iv morphine, blood tranfusion and blood draws that she was subjected to in the NICU. LOVE surrounded it, and babies can feel that. A situation is what you impose in it, if you feel badly about it then don't do it b/c it will be bad.

where is that soapbox icon?


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## polka123 (Nov 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShelleyMom2in2*
what about your kids choice?

1st off - none of YOUR business what I do with MY kids unless I'm breaking a law & the kid is in danger.

2nd- we all make decisions for our minor kids all the time without their consent (schools, method of raising, etc)

3rd - as I said, no one in OUR family has had any trauma getting holes in our ears an an early age.









4th- your view, don't pierce - my view - I'll pierce















pretty simple... my DD loved her ears pierced so much when little.

there's no right/wrong to this - just to each his own


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## cristinaoketch (Dec 20, 2005)

I'm piercing DD's ears tommorow, she has just turned 12 weeks.

In my DH's culture (which is now my DD's too), most girls return home from the hospital after they are born with their ears peirced. So for us, its cultural. And if you feel like its good for your daughter, then why not?

Side note, I DO NOT think that ear piercing is comparable to circumsicion, as this is reversible, and Circumsicion is not. your not removing anything from her, and IMHO they shouldnt be compared.


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## SunRayeMomi (Aug 27, 2005)

Quote:

I was personally made to wait until I was 12, which ended up being about right, I think. I eve had my ears done in one of those awful mall places. But the holes are centered and all is well. Perhaps a couple of years younger would have been okay as well, but even though I could converse in full paragraphs with adults at age 2, my level of understanding of the outside world was still rather limited for some time, so 12 ended up being the most appropriate time for piercing. I have since also pierced my nose and I have 2 tattoos.
I had virtually the same experience and it was a positive one. If dd still implores me to get her ears peirced, I will probably suggest that she wait until 8 or ten or so, but that we will not be using the guns.

I got all the holes in my ears done with guns. They are perfectly fine and well-centered. I have left them empty for up to five years at a time, and haven't had earrings in them all at the same time (3 holes in one, four in the other) since I first got them all. They have never closed.
When I got my nose pierced it was with a needle at a tattoo parlor. I have had a ring in it for the entire time, and it does get tighter when I leave one out.
I pierced MY OWN lip, and it got slightly infected for a day or two, but I expected it to since it is so close to bacteria from my mouth. After that, it was perfectly fine and I go through phases of having a ring in and having it empty. right now it is empty and has been for months, and should I want to put a ring back in, I would have to force it through a bit but otherwise the hole is still there. The hole will always be there, and it is a little unsightly but luckily I was smart enough to put it under my lip to where it is usually undetecable. But it will always be there







That's something I will have to accept, although when I am older I will perhaps regret the little hole.... For now I hardly think of it.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cristinaoketch*
Side note, I DO NOT think that ear piercing is comparable to circumsicion, as this is reversible, and Circumsicion is not.

ummm....how is it reversible? Several women here have posted stating that their holes never closed, even if they haven't worn earrings in ages. And, even the ones that "closed" left scars. Sure - the scars are small, but they're also in a very visible place.

I don't exactly think that ear piercing is comparable to circumcision as I think that circumcision is vile and is rooted in humanity's totally freaky attitudes about sex. But, I do think there are some similarities - both involve causing your child pain in order to do something to their body that they are incapable of choosing for themselves, and may very well _not_ choose if left to make their own decision.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama_nomad*
...you underdstand and act upon something that is absoultely built-in to your parental instincts, and i mean instincts, not learned behavior...

What instinct are you referring to? I've certainly never felt any urge to make dd look like other little girls, or poke holes in her with a needle. The only parental instinct I can identify in myself is a need to hold, cuddle and nurse my infants.

Quote:

...adorning our families with jewelry has been part of us for thousands of years, it separates us from the animal kingdom...
You think? I'm not separate from the animal kingdom. I'm an animal - an animal who can think, yes...an animal who has the benefit (dubious though it may be at times) of an established infrastructure that provides food, shelter, clothing, etc. That doesn't make me any less an animal, and I can't see why I'd want to be anythingn else.

Quote:

if a child grows up to reject and idea a parent has "imposed" upon thenm thn that is an importnat part of maturity indeed to choose your own way, whether it be religion (please how many people do you know rejected the religion they were raised with?-TONS) or way of dress or earrings. we have swung so far to the other way about don't "body integrity" and freedom of choice, that we hardly give anything for our children to turn away from.
I don't see why that's a problem. I started choosing my own way as a small child, because my parents didn't think it was necessary to force me into a predetermined mold. We were raised as agnostics, but we were perfectly free to explore other people's religious beliefs and were exposed to many different lifestyles and belief structures. If I've had the freedom to choose my own way from childhood, why do I need something to "turn away from"?

Quote:

...i don't wait to see if my child wants to breastfeed and co-sleep until they get older...
It's not necessary to wait. DS2 was handed to me just a few minutes after surgery (the first one I got to hold - so incredible!), and the first thing he did was root at my breast and start to nurse. He doesn't have to be able to talk to tell me he wants to breastfeed. All three of my babies have settled int to sleep better when they were with me than when they weren't - I don't have to _ask_ them if they want to cosleep. (One caveat - dd needed to be left alone to fall asleep, but generally wouldn't _stay_ asleep by herself.)

Quote:

i'd like to add that one of the reasons it think the its-her-choice thing overblown is that i challenge you to find a support group for adult women that were pierced at birth without consent! circ on the other hand....now that is a therapy issue
Not for everybody. Many men (both my ex and dh, for example) have no problem with it. Since many men are okay with it, maybe the concern with circing infant boys is "overblown"? Maybe the ones who hate it are just over-reacting. I don't think so for a minute - I find circ repulsive. And...maybe the women who hate the fact that holes were poked in their ears as infants aren't over-reacting, either? I'm guessing that women who end up with keloids, infection, etc. (yes - I know these are relatively rare), sometimes resulting in ugly, _permanent_ scarring, are less than thrilled that mommy wanted them to be cute or look like the other kids. (I'll admit that I look at that a little differently than some, as ds1 got his first haircut this summer - at 12. He liked it long. Who cares what anybody else thinks about it?)


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
I'm pierced and tattooed. My child isn't. I guess I want my child to know that fitting is more about your insides than how you adorn yourself... and *I want him to know that what he does with his body is his own choice in his own time.*

yes, that, exactly.


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## charmander (Dec 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *polka123*
1st off - none of YOUR business what I do with MY kids unless I'm breaking a law & the kid is in danger.

Right, so in your opinion, circumcision is fine and dandy, yes?


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## charmander (Dec 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annakiss*
I think that if the side that is arguind for piercing would simply concede that they have indeed altered someone else's body without their permission, then the argument would be pretty done with the two sides simply disagreeing and that being the end of it.

I am having difficulty understanding how someone can be anti-circ, but pro-baby piercing. Annakiss, you didn't say that, I just read your quote above and it makes me wonder how it is okay to alter a baby's body in one way, but not in the other. I am not looking for an argument here about circ - yes, I do know what it removed and it is _not_ the same as ear piercing - but it is the general thought and idea that it is okay to modify one part of someone's body but not another.

It seems to me, logically, that pro-piercers should ALSO not be against circumcision.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *yoopervegan*
I WOULD help my dd get her ears pierced if SHE decided she wanted it done at any age. I would explain to her the procedure and that it WILL hurt and that it IS permanent, then let her decide. I would do it now at 2.5. She is old enough to understand pain. I would probably take her to see it done so I knew she fully understood.

does this mean i am finally TCS?







lol, it IS kind of nice to see someone agree with me that an older toddler can make this kind of educated decision.

i am uncomfortable with the bling arguments, the decision for my child arguments, etc. but while my objection to cosmetic piercing on infants shares the body integrity philosophical core with my anti-circ views, in reality, it _is_ VASTLY DIFFERENT.

the reason to keep them out of the same sentence is not because there are no comparisons to make- i can make the analogy that clipping the baby's NAILS if they don't want it done has an element of forcing my will on another human's body- but because, in many people's minds, it _utterly trivializes_ the issue of circumcision. protecting babies from being circumcised trumps any 'well, i AM right' argument about ear-piercing imho.

*no one's* sexuality is irrevocably diminished with ear piercing. the pain is in no way comparable. (please. i've had pierced labia & nipples & would never think to compare what that felt like to what any infant goes through with circumcision.) and many people choose ear-piercing voluntarily. those differences MATTER.


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## charmander (Dec 30, 2003)

Yes, I agree that an older toddler would be able to make this decision for herself, a 12 week baby, no. I disagree with the poster that said piercing is not permananent - the 2nd ear piercing I got 20 years ago has NEVER closed up, and I haven't worn earrings in it for 15 years. Nails do grow back, and so do hair, but not piercings.

A 12 week old baby having it's ears pierced: for whose benefit? Certainly not the baby's. It is solely for the parent's need to have their baby look "cute," IMHO *not* a valid reason to do it. What if your baby is a side sleeper? Now the poor thing has to deal with a metal stud poking into its skull while it tries to sleep. Nice, very nice, mom and dad!!

I'm pretty sure my daughter will want to get her ears pierced someday. But I will HER make that decision. I won't force it on her while she is in no position to make that kind of a choice.


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## mama_nomad (Apr 11, 2005)

so back to what annakiss was trying to say earlier that obviously there are two sides....some place bodily intergity above cultural ritual/rite of passage.

what i've been trying to illustrate is that modifying babies is not merely a superficial decision, even for mothers who do claim they like it b/c "it looks cute", historcally/anthropologically/biologically speaking it has roots, so no one should be made to feel like they are causing their baby unnesseccary trauma for wanting to adorn their babies. it is one of the most ancient and innate practices, regardless of how it resonates in the "natural community".

and to close (b/c I'm done posting on this thread) here are some photos of what non-tacky, high-quality children's earrings should look like:

Isadore with her initial gold earrings, made by Papa for our oldest and passed down by Mayan when Isadore got her ears done:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...d/2356ddd9.jpg

Here is Big Sister Mayan with her new pair of gold earrings with ruby-studded (21 rubys for the date she was born) "disco balls". Mayan wears gold in honor of her namesake and place of conception, Chichen Itza, the Mayan ruins. (It was a huge honor for her to pass on her earrings to her sister, and was an important bonding ritual for them especially since baby Isadore didn't come home from the hospitial for a few weeks.)

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...d/IMG_0131.jpg

Isadore recently upgraded to opal flat-disc backed studs. Perfect placement:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...d/DSC02340.jpg

Can't get this girl to stay still for a second! A blurry close-up of Mayan's ruby and gold:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...d/DSC02402.jpg

HAPPY NEW YEAR!


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## Peppermint (Feb 12, 2003)

mama_nomad- I know you said you are done posting, but in case you read--- your daughter is downright gorgeous, a true natural beauty!


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *suseyblue*
the reason to keep them out of the same sentence is not because there are no comparisons to make- i can make the analogy that clipping the baby's NAILS if they don't want it done has an element of forcing my will on another human's body- but because, in many people's minds, it _utterly trivializes_ the issue of circumcision.

I disagree. Of course, I also don't think that calling spanking "abuse" trivializes more severe forms of child abuse. For the sake of argument, though, where would your reasoning leave us? Many people believe that circumcision is a parent's rightful choice and isn't, in fact, tragic mutilation. They say to call circumcision abuse or mutilation is to trivialize "real" abuse and mutilation.

Personally, I call things as I see them and make comparisons where they're appropriate. There is absolutely a legitimate comparison between piercing infants and circumcising them. While the harm from circumcision is almost always more severe than the harm from piercing, both are violations of bodily integrity and both are rooted in society's view of children as chattel and in its warped ideas about sex and the sexes. I like to assume most people on this site are intelligent to take an analogy for what it is - a tool used to further clarify a point, not a relation of one thing to another as being exactly the same in all respects.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cmd*
I am having difficulty understanding how someone can be anti-circ, but pro-baby piercing. Annakiss, you didn't say that, I just read your quote above and it makes me wonder how it is okay to alter a baby's body in one way, but not in the other. I am not looking for an argument here about circ - yes, I do know what it removed and it is _not_ the same as ear piercing - but it is the general thought and idea that it is okay to modify one part of someone's body but not another.

It seems to me, logically, that pro-piercers should ALSO not be against circumcision.

Well, I don't claim to understand it either, but the arguments in this thread seem to be saying that it's just not the same since earrings can be removed, piercing does not impede function of any sort, it is a hole rather than an area of skin and bunch of nerves the size of a 3x5 card, and, at least in theory, the act itself is less painful. The anti-piercing side says to this, it is STILL modification of someone else's body without their consent, thus wrong. I tend to agree with the anti-piercing argument, actually, but I must say that doesn't mean that I think that piercing is a human rights violation the way I think that circumcision is.

FWIW, my step-sister circed all three of her boys and pierced her daughter's ears and though I loathe all of that, I say absolutely nothing to her about any of it. I think she probably knows how I feel about some of it since I don't circ my boys. My niece's ears were just recently done and I actually think she looks less cute, as awful as that is to say, because every time I look at her it just makes me sad. She'll be 2 in March.


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## Calm (Sep 17, 2004)

Annakiss, your post about the two sides and how to fix this is absolutely right.

Quote:

I don't see it having a large impact like removing a boys foreskin
But a small impact is fine by you?

And to the person who just pierced a 12 week old baby's ears, why on earth would you feel it necessary to post that? How do you feel when you read about things you find cruel, _even if the other side thinks it is NOT cruel_? It upsets you, correct? You may wonder why they had to tell you, right? When people tell me they have circumcised their child, knowing it upsets me, I have to wonder why they would intentionally upset others like that. (not that I am comparing the procedures, I AM comparing the necessity to share upsetting information)

It is obviously upsetting to most of us here to learn of piercings on babies. Free will or not, sometimes some sensitivity toward other readers is called for. 12 weeks is so young it is VERY upsetting to learn she is pierced.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
For the sake of argument, though, where would your reasoning leave us? Many people believe that circumcision is a parent's rightful choice and isn't, in fact, tragic mutilation. They say to call circumcision abuse or mutilation is to trivialize "real" abuse and mutilation.

And I believe that that is demonstrably incorrect, not a matter of opinion or a philosophical difference. Any person with a brain & willingness to use it can be shown that circumcision is as horrific as skinning an eyelid. There is huge concrete lifetime damage from circumcision.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
Personally, I call things as I see them and make comparisons where they're appropriate. There is absolutely a legitimate comparison between piercing infants and circumcising them.

Sure.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
While the harm from circumcision is *almost* always more severe than the harm from piercing,

(bold type mine)

Screeeeeech!!! almost? i know what a scarred infected piercing that doesn't heal completely feels like; i can't compare that to kathy griffin's 'bucket of clits'. it _does_ trivialize what was taken from circumcised women for me to insist that they be referenced in the same sentence, whether it resulted from my own choice or not.

you may want to intellectualize that because spanking is on the same continuum as other forms of abuse that there is an analogy to be made; but irl do you think that every otherwise loving parent who spanks is the moral equivalent to someone who burns their baby with cigarettes? do you recommend the same consequences? irl if you do, you are going to lose a lot of people that way.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
I like to assume most people on this site are intelligent to take an analogy for what it is - a tool used to further clarify a point, not a relation of one thing to another as being exactly the same in all respects.

the information on this site is available to millions upon millions of people around the world, not just regular posters. i try to post with that in mind. in many respects this is _the_ site for expectant mothers to go to to get the truth about circumcision without a lot of 'it's your choice' bs.

if one parent, reading carelessly, can take away from anything i post here, "well, it's not so bad, circumcision, it's like ear-piercing", i am a failure at intactivism. that is why i am vehement that the comparison not be made unchallenged, simply to satisfy an intellectual point.

the gut-wrenching horror of strapping a newborn baby into a circumstraint & skinning his penis alive- stopping this practice is more important than stopping piercing. if it can't be done without analogizing circumcision, i'll work on the ear-piercers' collective guilt when it is illegal to circumcise the unwilling. (personally, i think the point can be made without comparing the two, but that's jmho.)


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## SunRayeMomi (Aug 27, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Peppermint*
mama_nomad- I know you said you are done posting, but in case you read--- your daughter is downright gorgeous, a true natural beauty!

I agree, real princesses those two!


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## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Tiger tail, I do make a comparison between circumcision and ear piercing a small child. I'm not saying they're equal; I would choose my ears over my genitalia, but my ears were mutilated as a child and it bothers me immensely. I have to look at those holes everyday of my life. It's a violation of my body, and the thought of hanging metal from holes ripped into my flesh is-- as I always say--repugnant to me, yet those holes never go away AND people keep giving me earrings.

When we were expecting my Dd, my Dh said he would not want to circumcise a boy because he felt that something had been taken from him. Strangely, though, in his case, his circumcised penis bothers him less than my ears bother me. Again, I'm not equating the two, but I do compare them as two kinds of body mutilation.


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## mama_nomad (Apr 11, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SunRayeMomi*
I agree, real princesses those two!

thanks to you ladies that commented. (i am still reading the thread just staying out of the discussion.) see my new hyperlinked signature! i finally learned how to do it and i am a big picture-taker

sorry, now back to your regularly scheduled heated discussion...............


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## assenavadnama (Oct 10, 2005)

Babies with earrings creep me out. Why can't you wait until she's old enough to ask and care for them herself?


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## Dragonfly (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail*
And I believe that that is demonstrably incorrect, not a matter of opinion or a philosophical difference. Any person with a brain & willingness to use it can be shown that circumcision is as horrific as skinning an eyelid. There is huge concrete lifetime damage from circumcision.

I believe it is, as well. But many people, including circumcised men do not. Which is my point.

Quote:

Screeeeeech!!! almost? i know what a scarred infected piercing that doesn't heal completely feels like; i can't compare that to kathy griffin's 'bucket of clits'. it _does_ trivialize what was taken from circumcised women for me to insist that they be referenced in the same sentence, whether it resulted from my own choice or not.
Yes, almost. I imagine a child could conceivably die from piercing. That's why "almost" is more appropriate than "always."

Quote:

you may want to intellectualize that because spanking is on the same continuum as other forms of abuse that there is an analogy to be made; but irl do you think that every otherwise loving parent who spanks is the moral equivalent to someone who burns their baby with cigarettes? do you recommend the same consequences? irl if you do, you are going to lose a lot of people that way.
Yep, I think there absolutely is a legitimate analogy to be drawn between spanking and abuse. (In fact, I believe spanking is an abusive act, though certainly not as severe as many other abusive acts inflicted on children). And I don't think that saying so trivializes more severe abuse. I don't think that terms work that way.

Quote:

if one parent, reading carelessly, can take away from anything i post here, "well, it's not so bad, circumcision, it's like ear-piercing", i am a failure at intactivism. that is why i am vehement that the comparison not be made unchallenged, simply to satisfy an intellectual point.
Hm. I'd think that anyone who read the whole thread (or even many of the posts in isolation) could see that no one is equating ear-piercing to circumcision.

To each his or her own. I don't think that drawing the analogy on a thread like this makes me a failed intactivist. I wouldn't bring up ear-piercing while discussing circumcision but I do feel that where the comparison has been made on a thread about ear-piercing, it's worth exploring.


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Peppermint*
mama_nomad- I know you said you are done posting, but in case you read--- your daughter is downright gorgeous, a true natural beauty!









:

I would never pierce dd's ears without her consent and I didn't have a bad experience - even though it was in a mall







. I was also 17... but in my early teen years I was against getting my ears pierced so I dunno... I probably would have been upset had it been done to me as a baby. At least for a few years









As with circ - which I am rabidly opposed to - I don't judge parents who choose to pierce their dc if it's cultural/religious because then the parent is truly doing what they believe is best for their child. how could I judge someone for doing what they believe is best for their dc? that's all anyone can do. I do not believe it is best to circ or pierce w/o the child's consent so I won't.







if it's so important then do it, but know that some women _are_ unhappy that they were done as babies and that your dd could be one of them. Also, ITA with getting it done not at the mall if you must do it









love and peace.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Dragonfly*
To each his or her own. I don't think that drawing the analogy on a thread like this makes me a failed intactivist. I wouldn't bring up ear-piercing while discussing circumcision but I do feel that where the comparison has been made on a thread about ear-piercing, it's worth exploring.

yeah, i can agree with the above statements (and i was just saying what it would make _me_ feel like, not implying anyone else should). i'll go so far as to say your reasoning is as valid as mine, & we both made points to consider.







i would sit & talk to myself on a myspace blog if i wasn't interested in having a well-articulated dialogue. i have not found the pro-infant-piercing logic here convincing, & i am regarding pierced babies much less benignly after this thread.


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## RockStarMom (Sep 11, 2005)

No way. It would be unattractive, painful, and disrespectful for me to pierce my daughter's ears.


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## DoubleOven (Jan 7, 2006)

If dd wants her ears pierced, then I will take her as soon as she is ready, and I'll even buy her a pair of diamond studs to match mine.

But I don't feel comfortable making that choice for her.


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## suprgrl (Sep 27, 2005)

I am SO glad no one pierced my ears as a child. I am 25 and I still have no holes in my body. If I have a daughter some day she can choose for herself. Personally I liked having the choice of what to do with my body. As a teenager I considered getting them pierced...but it was so cliche, and just what everyone else did. I have no reason to add holes to my body. I can dress up with jewelry that does not require holes in my flesh.
Back to the point. I really appreciated being able to make the decision for myself.

Ronna


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## mama_at_home (Apr 27, 2004)

I was actually kind of undecided on this issue. We lived in Mexico for a long time and most people pierce their baby girl's ears at birth. To be honest, I don't remember ever seeing a baby girl there without pierced ears. I am sure they exist, but I just never saw a girl without earrings. Dh really wants to pierce dd's ears because he thinks it looks cute but I don't plan on letting that happen. Although I would rather my daughter make that choice on her own, I cannot possibly see how pierced ears can even compare to the horror of circumcision.


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## CharlieBrown (Jan 20, 2004)

i have two DDS. oldest asked to have her ears pierced before she was three. at three i took her to the mall and had it done. she was influenced by friends. many Indians where i live. i took dd2 to get her ears pireced when she became three. (treat both children the same) she lost an ear ring and asked me to remove the other and hasn't asked to have them done over. i am glad she has the choice to wait now. dd1 really wanted to get hers pierced. both are happy with their decisions


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## pycelan (Aug 14, 2005)

My dd also asked and I let her get them pierced. She has always looked at/played with my earrings. I cleaned them for the first few weeks. Now she knows how to take them out, put new ones in and tighten the backs if they are loose. I do not regret honoring her request.


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## M&Mmommy (Jan 25, 2003)

It's a personal decision. I'm so glad my parents didn't pierce my ears. I chose to when I was 10. Slightly OT, but related to personal choice, my parents did not baptise me either, allowing me to choose for myself, which I think was very wise.


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## lisamarie (Nov 19, 2001)

M&Mmommy, my parents did the same thing. They let me choose when to pierce my ears (I was 14 yo), even though my Mom thought I was too young. She came from an older era where girls/women who pierced their ears were considered "bad girls". She didn't want me viewed that way, even though the perception had changed with the times. They also allowed me to decided when I wanted to be baptised as well.









Warmly~

Lisa


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## boston (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spicey Momma*







Honestly I didn't know everyone here would be so cold about it. When it comes down to it, she is my duaghter, I love, and only want the best for her. I would never do anything that would really hurt her. I remember having my ears peirced, and it wasn't bad.

I feel like everyone is looking down at me for doing this. DD is fine, and is hasn't cried or pulled at her ears once. She doesn't mind me cleaning them either. I have more trouble combing her hair in the morning than I did peircing her ears!

I have really come to love MDC has a community and have learned lots here. Before coming here I was pretty mainstream. However noone has the right to judge me. Noone has the right to say I have hurt my child, when I did not.

The only pain I have from this experience is the anxiety this thread has caused










I think you did hurt her by piercing her ears. That doesn't feel good. I've had my ears pierced 3 times in each ear. It definitely hurts. Sure the pain only lasts for a few days and then goes away (unless it gets infected). But you asked for our thoughts and you go them. I wouldn't choose to do that to my kid. Not only does it hurt and invite infection, it also wasn't with her consent. It was so you could think she looked cute. I don't find it cute. I find it inappropriate.

Why did you expect people here to support that?


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## Christine&men (Jun 4, 2005)

I think it should be the daughters decision (when she is old enough to make a decision). Reason: A friend of mine has a daughter with pierced ears and those earrings are just too tempting to take out (and I am expecting another little one soon, so the danger of a small and sharp object waiting to be found on the floor and explored is just too high!)


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## lorijds (Jun 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spicey Momma*
it isn't permanent......



It is permanent. It leaves a scar if you take them out. Or, your daughter could be like my oldest daughter, and have an earring cut into her ear, and then tear the hole, so now she has a large tear/tole where her right earring was.

There is a risk for infection and for permanent disfigurement.

I totally respect your right to do this. But YOU ASKED; so there it is.

My oldest dd got her ear pierced initially when she was 7. The earring dug/tore into her ear a couple of months after she got them pierced.

She recently got them double pierced (she's now almost 11), because she wants to wear dangly earrings, but with her right ear like it is, I am scared it will completely tear through to the outside. THere is literally only a little piece of skin, maybe a milimete or so, preventing the hole from being a flap. So I told her if she wanted danglies, she need to get the pierced again up higher, and she needed to pay for it.

I like piercings and tattoos, I have several of both. But only on my body. I think a kid has to be old enough to accept the consequences of the possible negatives. You decided to make that decision for your daughter.

I personally decided to make some very permanent decisions for my own daughters--where and how to birth them, whether or not to breastfeed and for how long, when and which immunizations to give them, what sort of schooling to provide them with, etc. I fret about those sometimes, but I feel pretty good about all my decisions, because I feel like I carefully weighed the pros and cons -- not just the clinical aspects, but cultural as well -- and I made the best decisions that I could at the time. That's about all you can do as a parent, you know?


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## Mountaingirl3 (May 21, 2005)

Wow. A lot of posts for something that seems so small in the big picture of parenting!

I wouldn't do it, but have no passionate feeling about someone else doing it. I understand the cultural and traditional reasons. I chose to have mine done as a teenager, but let them close in my twenties. The scar is teeny-tiny. I just had to go look in the mirror to see if I had scars--I never notice it at all.

I'm completely anti-circ (but have lots of compassion for those who were pressured into it or not informed). But piercing hurts about the same as getting tangles out of hair, and I don't see it as permanent.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

I don't think the OP is checking this thread at all any longer as it's over a year old and she hasn't been online since last October.


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## boingo82 (Feb 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *annakiss*
I don't think the OP is checking this thread at all any longer as it's over a year old and she hasn't been online since last October.

The OP has not even posted at Mothering for nearly a year, so you're probably right.


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## lorijds (Jun 6, 2002)

Urgh.

Didn't realize the thread was that old!! Sorry!

Lori


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## Moochie Mamma (Jan 23, 2006)

I haven't read all the responses yet but personally I would not allow a peircing until DD (or DS if he chooses to get one) is mature enough to care for it. I had to be 13 which seemed ridiculous at the time- I probably wouldn't make them wait that long but I certainly wouldn't do it at age 3 just because they wanted it.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

I was at the mall yesterday and heard a baby screaming and crying from pain, my first reaction was that someone accidently dropped their baby or something, but when we got closer I saw that a lady was getting her baby's ears done at one of those piercing kiosks. SHe couldn't have been but a month or two old. It was sooooo sad. It really made me want to cry.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *HeatherE*
Just as if I had had boys and didn't feel I had the right to circumsise them without their consent, I do not feel i have the right to pierce my girls' ears without their consent.

But... this is just my opinion. Lots of people do this in our culture, and if you feel ok about it that's what matters for your family.

I disagree with the last part. These painful, permanent modifications to a child's body don't affect the "family", only the body of the child. What matters is what the *child* wants. And, unless they can tell you what they want, it's impossible to know.

I don't have a crystal ball, and I'll wait until my child can voice his or her own opinion. There's no need to guess, inflicting pain and risking infection or other complications.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *klothos*
...ultimately, _she is not my doll._ she is not a toy. she is a little thinking, feeling person, and just because she cannot communicate as efficiently as an adult does not mean i shouldn't afford her as much respect as one.











Their body, their choice.

JMO,

Jen

PS. With regard to culture/tradition, I want my son to be his own person and not send a message, from an early age, that he should change himself to 'follow the crowd' or needs to modify his body to fit in.


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## Periwinkle (Feb 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boston*
No, I would not do this. Not unless my daughter truly wanted them, and was old enough to have real informed consent.

Yup. This pretty much sums it up for me.


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *girlndocs*
With all the people happily repeating that it "really isn't permanent" I wanted to restate that um, yes, _every piercing carries some risk of complications with permanent results_, and although you can do some things to minimize the risk of those complications, you can't guarantee they're prevented, or predict who they'll happen to.

I certainly wouldn't want to take the risk of my baby's ears developing keloids, hypertrophic scarring, rejection, allergy, nickel reaction, abscess, furuncle, or a torn lobe.

Thank you for the links. I had no idea what keloids are!!! Previously, I would have thought I'd let my daughter pierce her ears around age 13 if she asked but now I will tell her she can't do it until she's over 18 and I'll show her the pictures and links that you have suggested to show her how risky it could potentially be.

Thank you!


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## RiverSky (Jun 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *nancymom*
Although I would rather my daughter make that choice on her own, I cannot possibly see how pierced ears can even compare to the horror of circumcision.

If a child were to develop keloids that would disfigure him/her and not go away, despite repeated surgeries, I think that compares to the horror of circumcision. Check out the keloids link, I was shocked to see the pictures.


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## turkeygw (May 29, 2005)

We got our daughters ear's pierced two weeks ago, at the mall at Claire's. My daughters are three and four, and would have had them done when they were younger, but we were really, really, broke back then. So far we haven't had any problems, and they let me clean their ears w/out any complaints. I had my ear's pierced when I was a baby, as did a lot of women in my family. I feel the same way about this subject as I do with giving babies formula. If you want to breastfeed, great, if you don't, that's fine w/me too. To each its own


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## ramlita (Mar 26, 2002)

My feelings:
I want my kids to know they are safe with me.

If I have to participate in causing them any sort of pain, it had better be for a carefully-considered, valid medical reason.

How can a baby feel fundamentally safe if a trip to the mall one day includes shocking, throbbing pain in both ears?







Won't she wonder, on a baby level, "What could happen to me _tomorrow_?"


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## momsgotmilk4two (Sep 24, 2002)

Ear piercing is not something I get worked up about. It just isn't that big of a deal and there are so many other things to get up on the old soapbox about. The pain is so minimal and short lived (I have had a total of 8 ear piercings, a tounge piercing, and a navel piercing). I vaccinate my kids because *I* feel it is to thier benefit and a baby isn't going to understand the difference between vaccination pain, getting teeth filled, or getting ears pierced. When I ask myself if it would bother me if my mother had done this to me, my answer is no (she didn't, she waited until I asked for them at age 7). That said, if I had a dd, I would wait until she asked for it to be done. I hardly see any babies here with pierced ears and the ones who I do see are most often Hispanic since it is traditional. I would also take her to a reputable body piercer, not the mall.


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## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

Let's put this poor thread out of it's misery. It's a good read as an old thread but I think it better a new one be started for renewed discussion of the topic.










Edited to fix the slip.


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