# the issue of infant carseats in our country



## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

(without it getting heated, please, I really have questions and I'd like to talk about them)

This is the thing.. I was talking to a friend the other day, she is from South America (as most of you know, me too) and she has a 2 month old baby. We were at a christening together for a friend's baby (we have that friend in common) and she was asking me all these questions about breastfeeding, cloth diapering, cosleeping, etc.. and I felt that she found comfort in a lot of the things that I told her. She even told my husband and her husband (we shared a table) that I was such a "perfect mom" (yes, I said please, I feel like the worst mom in the world most days lost in my unshowered mind, sleepless body and tons of laundry) SOOOO.. I don't know how she started talking about carseats and how she doesn't ler her baby cry in the carseat while she is in the car but she also doesn't stop the car when baby is hungry. She will sit in the back of her SUV and nurse her baby, while her dh drives. I said...

"ME TOO". (yes, this is the part where your blood pressure will rise, right?)
well, I don't do this now, because my son no longer needs to nurse every hour. But dh and I did this many, many times when ds was under a year. countless times. never in the front seat, always in the back. but we did it. I admit it. so... we started talking about how the only people that WE know that do this, are not from here (from the US) and that it's like a dirty little secret because if you DARE tell anyone here they will automatically think that you're a bad, irresponsible mother.

My question is.. where does this come from? Was there some kind of a campaign in the US to encourage the use of carseats, that it made it so deep in the minds of people that "carseat=good parent, no carseat=bad parent"? I mean, I agree that carseats are SUPER important, but if I had to put that in a scale and compare it to breastfeeding (since THAT is such a choice here) I'd say carseats are less important than breastfeeding, because carseats only save you IF you have an accident. Not breastfeeding is damage one can't repair. And I wonder why not breastfeeding is not at all a reason to judge a mother and think of her as an irresponsible person.

so... this is what my girlfriend and I discussed. I am curious now as to what all of you have to say. My biggest question here is WHAT made people feel so strongly about carseats?

Just for the record, in Chile carseats are not mandatory or required by law (not many people own cars, btw) and I never had one when I was a baby OR when my own daughter was a baby (we lived in Chile until she was 15 months) and it's not an education thing because we were a highly educated family and still didn't think much of not having a carseat. (I do now, though, and both my children have carseats and are always buckled in.. but I don't regret nursing my son in the back seat when he was smaller and couldn't wait)

ok. I guess I'm done. Going to hit the "post" button now. Please remember I'm genuinly curious and don't want to start a big ugly fight. peace and love to everyone!!!


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## Lisalee2 (Dec 12, 2001)

Don't have much time to post now, I've nursed my babes in the backseat of the car too, but I leave them in their seats. What can I say?, I must have elasti-boobs or something. :LOL

I am too paranoid to take my baby out of the seat while we are driving.


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## wawap (Jun 28, 2004)

I've done it & worse... You know - I still think I'm a pretty great mom. Yeah - I shot a nasty look at the guy driving his pickup with his 1.5-2? year old in his lap. But - if my son needed to nurse, I nursed him. If he puked in his carseat and it was all over his face and neck/down his shirt, I climbed back there and cleaned him off.

Seriously - you never know what could happen. A plane could have crashed down on us, a bridge could collapse - Whatever....

I did what I needed to do at that time.








: What a relief to say that....

I've never told anyone (well DH was driving, so he knows....)

Laura


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## Kleine Hexe (Dec 2, 2001)

My cousin from El Salvador also takes her daughter out to nurse her while someone is driving. I do not think badly of her nor think of her as irresponsible. I do think it's risky.

I have not and would not take my child out while someone drives. My reason is this. If there was an accident and my child was seriously injured, maimed, or killed I could never *ever* forgive myself. I know I could not live with the guilt I would have. Maybe others could forgive themselves but I know I could not. Ever. The guilt would consume me. So, knowing that about myself I keep my babes buckled in. If they need to nurse I unbuckle *my* seat belt to nurse. Many times have I been bent and contorted into interesting positions to nurse my baby. I can imagine I must have provided entertainment and wonder at passerbys. :LOL More than one person has seen my rear end sticking up in a window or my breast hanging out.

For me the risk does not outweigh the benefit.


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## zeldabee (Aug 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kleine Hexe*
If they need to nurse I unbuckle *my* seat belt to nurse. Many times have I been bent and contorted into interesting positions to nurse my baby.

Yup. That's what I've done.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

My step-mother is from Columbia. A favorite uncle of hers recently passed away. On the way home from the funeral, several members of her family packed into a car: her mother, brother & SIL and their two kids, a 3yo and a 5 month old, plus one of step-mother's teenage neices. They had an accident. Everyone was injured, some badly. Her brother died because he was thrown into the steering wheel. The 5mo baby also died because he was thrown into the dash board. The strongest arms in the world will not prevent a baby from being torn out of your arms in an accident, or crushed between your body and the seat in front of you.

When I went to India and Abi was 12-15 mos old I brought her infant carseat with us. Everyone complained that it took up a whole seat, why couldn't I just put her on my lap where it was more comfortable. But I never waivered even when we had to rent an extra car for a road trip b/c of the carseat. It's my child's life we are talking about.

And so what if you unbuckle yourself to nurse your strapped-in baby? If you have an accident your unrestrained body going 45 mph can crush your baby. If your baby survives the accident, will you? Do you want your baby to grow up without a mommy?

I have pulled over to feed my babies, and I have also had to let them cry at times when I couldn't pull over. Crying is better than dying.

See this videoclips if you need more convincing:
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/inju...les/video.html

I am not judging, but I just wanted to give some food for thought.


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## cortsmommy (Jul 6, 2003)

Well babies don't sit in car seats in limos or in taxis or on buses either. I think the carseat thing is yes a safety precaution and yes it does save lives but we don't all wreck everyday.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

I can see why carseats are a huge issue (up there with the most important issues) in parenting. In North America, we live in a car-based society. Therefore, we have many laws around car use etc. that other countries that are not so car-oriented may not have. People here spend a huge amount of time driving from one place to another every day. So it goes without saying that their babies spend a lot of time in a carseat. Carseats are an easy way to add a measure of safety to the lives of our babies. They are easy to come by and simple to use.
I, too have nursed my baby in the car. The feat of acrobatics involved in that should win us a medal!!
I have also moved my baby into a sling to nurse once or twice in the car. I wasn't the one driving. This was while driving on a tiny island, very slowly where there are maybe five other cars in total. I would not recommend it but sometimes desperate times....


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

No judgement here. It is your choice to remove your child from the only safety it has should you be in a wreck. I do not mean this snarky, but if you can deal with the emotional ramfications to watching your child thrown from your car or around your car like a rag doll, and listen as some hospital employee tells you your baby is dead, then go for it. I would be RICH if I had a dime for every time I have heard the argument...but they never used to have car seats and all of those people made it ok; or I am a very safe driver and nothing will ever happen etc. etc. With the advent of time brings technological advancements and knowledge. Knowledge and tests and results and devices which keep all of us more comfortable, safer, healthier, and wiser. I would never beget a babe his nourishment. BUT I do find any logic that dictates you HAVE to feed your child while driving and remove them from their safety seat, as irresponsible at best. If it is that important (and it is) you have some very easy remedies...one, try to feed the babe before leaving, and if that is not possible, then pull over and feed your baby safely. Please do not justify the incredible safety risk with the need to feed. If after all we do for our children, it becomes a mute point if your child is dead.

Dallaschildren
CPS tech and mom to 2 sons in seats, both in 5 point harnesses


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I have never, ever unbuckled a child from a carseat while the car was moving.

When Leah was an infant I used to bend over her carseat to nurse her- she was strapped in and I kept my lap belt on. I would never do that now, knowing what I know now about carseat safety. Infant seats are meant to hold the weight of a baby, NOT the weight of a baby plus her mother!!!

I kept Jack rearfacing in his carseat until he was 2.5 years old. Kids are safer backwards. If I see a baby in an infant seat/carrier thing, I usually gently educate the parents about the size limit if their baby is close to the maximum (there needs to be an inch of carseat above the baby's head.) I usually just smile at the baby and say (along with the usual what's your name, you're so cute, etc.) "You're almost too big for that carseat!!" If a parent strikes up a conversation with me I'll tell them that my son outgrew his infant seat by 4mo and I had to use a convertible seat. I don't do this in a "preachy" way, just in a "Wow, they grow so fast and outgrow everything so quickly" kind of way.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cortsmommy*
Well babies don't sit in car seats in limos or in taxis or on buses either. I think the carseat thing is yes a safety precaution and yes it does save lives but we don't all wreck everyday.

Kids should be in car seats even in limos and taxis. As for buses...this is a whole other enchilada....an abridged explaination is that buses are the SAFEST form of ground transportation. Why? Buses are larger and heavier than most vehicles, crash forces are distributed differently (evenly), the occupants experience these forces differently, they are statistically the lowest "risk" mode of travel, and they are conspicuous as hell.








In additon, buses are designed with the theory of "compartmentalization" which combines energy absorbing seat backs, and narrow spacing between occupants which offers a "compartment" size space for the occupant. It provides passive protection. Think of an egg in a carton.

Dallaschildren
CPS tech and mom to 2 sons in seats both in 5 point restraints


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## Still_Snarky (Dec 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lisalee2*
I've nursed my babes in the backseat of the car too, but I leave them in their seats. What can I say?, I must have elasti-boobs or something. :LOL









:


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## ChiknGirl (Apr 22, 2003)

Quote:

If they need to nurse I unbuckle *my* seat belt to nurse.
I don't understand the reasoning behind this. Your body, now unsecured, becomes a danger to your child if you were to be in an accident.


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## Shonahsmom (Mar 23, 2004)

If babe is really hungry and needs to nurse, why not just pull over?


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *USAmma*
My step-mother is from Columbia. A favorite uncle of hers recently passed away. On the way home from the funeral, several members of her family packed into a car: her mother, brother & SIL and their two kids, a 3yo and a 5 month old, plus one of step-mother's teenage neices. They had an accident. Everyone was injured, some badly. Her brother died because he was thrown into the steering wheel. The 5mo baby also died because he was thrown into the dash board. The strongest arms in the world will not prevent a baby from being torn out of your arms in an accident, or crushed between your body and the seat in front of you.

When I went to India and Abi was 12-15 mos old I brought her infant carseat with us. Everyone complained that it took up a whole seat, why couldn't I just put her on my lap where it was more comfortable. But I never waivered even when we had to rent an extra car for a road trip b/c of the carseat. It's my child's life we are talking about.

And so what if you unbuckle yourself to nurse your strapped-in baby? If you have an accident your unrestrained body going 45 mph can crush your baby. If your baby survives the accident, will you? Do you want your baby to grow up without a mommy?

I have pulled over to feed my babies, and I have also had to let them cry at times when I couldn't pull over. Crying is better than dying.

See this videoclips if you need more convincing:
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/inju...les/video.html

I am not judging, but I just wanted to give some food for thought.


















I am sorry about your loss.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shonahsmom*
If babe is really hungry and needs to nurse, why not just pull over?

That is what we do.


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## mamajama (Oct 12, 2002)

I can't remember now why we didn't pull over. Probably something to do with no safe place to pull off, young flustered parents, someone had to go to the bathroom, or something equally as mundane-sounding now. But in the moment I'm sure it was valid. Why else would I be yanking out my go-go gadget breast and straddling the back-seat of my car to appease the screaming infant. I think that when I a was a new parent, I could think of nothing else while my baby cried.


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## JesiLynne (Aug 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lisalee2*
Don't have much time to post now, I've nursed my babes in the backseat of the car too, but I leave them in their seats. What can I say?, I must have elasti-boobs or something. :LOL

I am too paranoid to take my baby out of the seat while we are driving.


IF I WASNT TOTALLY BROKE ID DDDDC YOU IN A MINUTE............ELSATI-BOOBS :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL :LOL

I have stopped the car but I dont think we ever did it while driving, I know my mom's friend would sit next to the car seat adn lean over but shes got HUGE BOOBS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WE have captains chairs where ds2 has his car seat so I can't reach that far


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## Foobar (Dec 15, 2002)

No judgment...but I would not ever take my child out of a carseat in a moving car.
You don't know WHEN an accident will happen.
I don't see why you can't just pull over?

We have a chance to make the car a safe place for our children, why not use it?


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

I'll just tell one story. When I was a volunteer fire fighter I attended an accident where a baby and his father were both killed. The damage to the car amounted to a grand total of $300.00, the accident was to say the least, incredibly minor. When I pulled up on it I couldn't figure out why on earth we'd even been called, then I saw the the front seat. Mom was nursing baby in the back seat out of his carseat. Dad breaked hard as traffic in front of him slowed down because of a stray dog in the road. He barely hit the vehicle in front of him. Baby went flying out of mom's arms, into the back of daddy's head, breaking dad's neck and killing him instantly, baby then continued to travel to the dashboard where he sustained lethal head injury.
That mother was left without her husband and her child....all so the baby wouldn't be hungry until it was safe to pull off the road.
I may be willing to leave my babe in the carseat while I walk 8' to the ATM, but I'll never have her unrestrained in a moving vehicle.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

I have not and would not take my child out while someone drives. My reason is this. If there was an accident and my child was seriously injured, maimed, or killed I could never *ever* forgive myself. I know I could not live with the guilt I would have.
That's why I never take them out of the carseat.

I know where the OP is coming from. I haven't had an accident since ds1 was born (and only once in the 10 years I had been driving before then), so theoretically I could not have used a carseat this entire time and he would have been just fine. But I just can't take him out, for the reason I quoted above.

I have spent many hours nursing a baby pulled over on the side of a road or a freeway exit.

I don't think someone is a horrible parent for taking their child out of the carseat. I just think they are much less risk averse than I am!


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## Wabi Sabi (Dec 24, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shonahsmom*
If babe is really hungry and needs to nurse, why not just pull over?

That is usually what we do...my DH is a stickler for seat belt safety and generally speaking would have a fit if I unbuckled while on the highway.

That being said, I have unbuckled *myself* so that I could nurse the baby. We were stuck in a nasty traffic jam while visiting family in Chicago. Pulling over just wasn't really possible in this case, the baby had been crying for a while already, and it looked like we were going to be stuck for quite a while longer.


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## Dreaming (Feb 8, 2004)

The one time I have had to lean over DD to feed her (or else let her scream) was in a gridlock traffic jam last summer. It took us 20 minutes to get to the next exit.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I think there is room for a little flexibility with car seats. There is a difference between taking a taxi for 10 blocks in downtown Manhattan and driving on a highway for miles.

And, yea, I think there may be a cultural thing going on as well. It seems that, in cultures that aren't so dependent on private cars, car seats are less of a focus. Makes sense.


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## amma! (Apr 30, 2005)

hey i nurse my baby without ever removing her from her carseat. i just loosen my seat belt a bit (at first i woudl just remove it altogether, but later learned how to keep it on) and sit up on my knees and lean over and pop in the breast.
of course now that she is in a frotn facing carseat this is not possible, but she is old enough to eat other food or wait till we can stop, so that is okay.

oh and about other countries, e.g india ... we travel more in buses and trains anyway, because that is much *faster* than cars. i was also upset by lack of carseats in india but then realised that road traffic is so slow compared to that in the US. anyway, i did my best to avoid cars.


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## gossamer (Feb 28, 2002)

Quote:

Well babies don't sit in car seats in limos or in taxis or on buses either. I think the carseat thing is yes a safety precaution and yes it does save lives but we don't all wreck everyday.
No, we don't all wreck every day but we never know when we are going to wreck. That's why it's an accident and not an on purpose. :LOL And yes, our parents probably didn't use car seats but also back then most cars were about the same size. Or at least when I was growing up. There wasn't the liklihood of a little mini cooper type car getting into an accident with an Excursion or Hummer. To me, it just isn't worth my child's life.
Gossamer


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## cortsmommy (Jul 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dallaschildren*
Kids should be in car seats even in limos and taxis.

Ideally yes but you don't see New Yorkers lugging car seats around the city. I was just pointing out that not everyone uses car seats even in this country.

Now personally I pulled over to nurse my son and never took him out of the carseat while driving. However I have a family member who thought it would be great to take my son on a tractor ride, and my son's dad once pulled Cort out of his carseat and let him sit on his lap once we hit our neighborhood. I raised some hell that day and of course I was "overreacting." However I did not want Cort do be thinking he could ride outside his seat.


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## Trishy (Oct 15, 2002)

Quote:

Riding unrestrained is the single greatest risk factor for death and injury among child motor vehicle occupants. Among children ages 14 and under killed in motor vehicle crashes as occupants in 2002, 50 percent were not using safety restraints at the time of the collision.
http://www.safekids.org/tier2_rl.cfm?folder_id=3120

I cannot bear to hear my baby cry but I would much rather he cry for five minutes so I can pull over in a safe place than be dead forever. You do not know when you will be in an accident. There are far too many sad stories like shannon0218 posted on the news. Horrible accidents that could have been easily prevented where an innocent child is dead. Those children did not know that being properly restrained would have saved thier lives and did not have the voice to tell their parents that they wanted to be safely restrained.


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## BabyBumblebee (Mar 16, 2005)

just my own experience;

We always pull over to nurse....always. It's a risk that I don't feel comfortable taking, probably 'cos I have been in 3 car accidents (all as a passenger). My psychiatrist used to be a car seat engineer, and he did all of the testing on unrestrained dummies - the stories he told me were enough to convince me that no matter how upset Charlie was it wasn't a good idea


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## blessedwithboys (Dec 8, 2004)

it is an issue of "live and learn" for some ppl.

i was raised with the attitude of "well, i did it with my babies, and it didnt kill them...". this, from my mother.

when ds1 was born, i was very young. i always took him out of his seat. he was HN, now i know he has sensory issues that made it most likely almost painful to be on his back. all i knew then was that his crying was going to be the _cause_ of an accident. the worst i ever did was to leave him in the sling and just get in and drive 30 mins home one night b/c i knew if i took him out and put him in his seat he would go nuts.

flash forward to ds2...same HN's, same sensory issues, but this time i knew better. this baby did alot of crying in the car. i never took him out once.

i was hit by the first wave of the back to sleep campaign. i wish they would do a carseat campaign. it would make a huge difference i think.


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## Lynski (Oct 17, 2004)

I never ever take DS out of the car seat for 2 reasons. The first being that it only takes 1 second for an accident to occur. You can drive as carefully as you like but you can't count on everyone else to do the same. A 6 week old baby just died here last month because of not being in the car seat. I don't know why exactly the baby wasn't in the car seat but I'm sure the mom thought it would be fine when she decided not to strap him in. The mother was just fine.









The second reason is it's the law. Not having them in the car seat is not only a crime, but is considered child abuse. You have to take classes for child abuse with other people who really DO abuse their children, and they investigate you for other instances. Your whole life gets turned upside down! There's no way I'd risk it just for the convenience of nursing while we drive. And DS was a HN baby too and there were times it took forever to get where we were going because we had to pull over more than once. It seems like a small sacrifice.


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## zeldabee (Aug 23, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cortsmommy*
Ideally yes but you don't see New Yorkers lugging car seats around the city. I was just pointing out that not everyone uses car seats even in this country.

Yeah, you really can't carry a car seat around in the city. I did ride in a taxi with my son on a few occasions, but usually was able to avoid it.

People who live outside NYC (very few other places in the country) don't understand what it's like in a place where few people have cars and everyone uses mass transit. My son's infant car seat was probably used a total of 3 times before he outgrew it. People wear out the wheels on their strollers, as I did once Sprogly was too big for his Ergo, and their car seats live in the closet.

ETA: We moved out of NYC, live in the burbs now, and I don't drive yet...but I regularly turn down offers of a ride when there's no car seat available.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

I think that NYC taxis and limos _should_ keep carseats in the trunk, since it's impractical for most NYers to carry a carseat around the City.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

An excellent idea Ruth, many police officers and ambulances carry car seats with them. After all, one only has to watch Third Watch to see there are accidents in downtown New York too









(see, as a canuck, I just assume those shows are totally accurate







)


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## calpurnia (Sep 26, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *IdentityCrisisMama*
And, yea, I think there may be a cultural thing going on as well. It seems that, in cultures that aren't so dependent on private cars, car seats are less of a focus. Makes sense.

Totally.

(not to say that I don't think child car safety is important, just that it seems to be stressed a lot more in north America, & the main social difference I can think of in this context is the car usage)


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
My question is.. where does this come from? Was there some kind of a campaign in the US to encourage the use of carseats, that it made it so deep in the minds of people that "carseat=good parent, no carseat=bad parent"?

Yes, there was a campaign to promote the use of carseats, in the US and in several other countries. In the late 1970s, several states passed laws that children below a certain age had to ride in safety seats.

I found a short and not very technical essay on that here:

http://www.pregnancy-place.com/The_H...ves_Lives.html

I found a lot of articles saying that use of car seats has reduced infant morbidity and mortality rates, but I can't find the original study that the statistic came from. In 2002, this article asserted that at least 51% of children under 5 were riding in cars unrestrained. Here's that article:

http://www.aafp.org/afp/20020515/2085.html

I would like to see more information on this, but my impression is that in places where car seats are used, children survive car accidents at a better rate. Since car accidents happen by accident, and are not predictable, it seems better to me to use a carseat.

(When we take car trips we stop to nurse.)


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## RosieTook (Sep 4, 2004)

As for the "we didn't ride in car seats and we are fine " attitude (not that there's much of that here...) I don't buy that when it comes to feeding solids at 6 weeks, or using formula, so why would I for car seats!! When you konw better you do better, plain and simple!

I am considered "anal" Yes, you read that right around some of my family for my insistence on carseats. I guilt tripped my cousin into buying a bigger carseat for her 14 month old last time I visited then, he was STILL in his infant seat. I said several times that it is time for a new one and she would say "oh he's not that heavy yet" and it took me several tries to explain to her that there is a height limit too...his head was topping to the top of the seat!!

It took me getting almost angry at her as I told her that I get a sick feeling in my stomach whenever I think of him like that for her to realize that this was not a good idea. We never fight, but we did about this cause I wouldn't give up on it...guess what, later that day she went out and bought her ds a convertable seat and not only that, but at my insistence it is still rear facing!









Car safety is not to be messed with. I will admit that I have nursed dd in the seat, but I am lucky enough to have breasts that are big enough to reach with us both restrained...still, I prefer to pull over if at all possible.


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## Throkmorton (Jun 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruthla*
I think that NYC taxis and limos _should_ keep carseats in the trunk, since it's impractical for most NYers to carry a carseat around the City.

In my smallish Canadian town, one taxi outfit has Alpha Omegas in the trunk of some of their cabs, and they taught their drivers to install them and adjust them to fit children. Even if I am on my own, I call that co. because I think that is cool. Yes, occasionally you have to wait longer for a cab with a child seat, but it is worth it.

No, i never took DS out of the car seat.


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## PatchyMama (Dec 6, 2002)

funny this comes up here...... I am on a local AP list and was completely shocked when numerous moms confessed to not strapping their babies into carseats when they were crying because it was so "un-AP" and cruel. I felt like I should have posted something, but I just didnt know what to say as I never never expected it to come from that group of moms. They were letting their babies crawl around on the floor in the back .....I honestly can not even wrap my head around the logic. I do my best to be as AP as I can but sometimes you have to put their safety first right? I honestly had never even thought that people thought of car seats as cruel until recently.


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

i am always astounded at the attitude that some parents have. of COURSE many parents aren't badgered into putting their kids in carseats in countries where cars are not that prevalent. DUH?

i have yet to meet a person who was like, "oh, today i'm going to get up, go to take my kids to school and get in a wreck on the way there and we might die so let's not wear a seat belt!" we don't KNOW ** WHEN ** an accident is going to happen. so why even take the chance?

people get into car wrecks every SECOND. obviously not US right now, because anyone reading this right now is on a computer and probably not behind the wheel of a car ~ but we *might* be... tomorrow... the day after... maybe this evening, when we're taking our kids out for (organic) pizza. we just don't know. and if we could do something to save our children's lives ~ why not take that precaution?

a crying baby...

or a dead baby?

i'd prefer my child to have a few minutes of grief... then to lose my baby forever.


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## srain (Nov 26, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mama2kyla*
I am on a local AP list and was completely shocked when numerous moms confessed to not strapping their babies into carseats when they were crying because it was so "un-AP" and cruel.... They were letting their babies crawl around on the floor in the back.

I'd tell these folks that they should reconsider the car trip instead! I know it's sometimes necessary to ride in cars, but so many people tell me about how awful it was listening to their baby cry the whole ride to their playdate, or how they had to take their baby out of the seat to nurse on the way to a restaurant. Stay home instead!

(I haven't gotten out much since my six-month-old car-hater was born....)


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## grisandole (Jan 11, 2002)

Never, ever, ever. I did nurse in the car (me in a seatbelt but not totally restrained properly, I did have to loosen it; ds in the carseat) a few times (maybe 3?) while we were in traffic while in the process of finding a safe place to pull over. Then I learned about my body potentially being a projectile in an accident and never did that again.

Anyway, I am super safe when it comes to cars and carseats. I feel that it's an issue that we as parents have some control over, so, why not keep the kids as safe as possible? I can't prevent a meteor from falling on my house, but I can make sure that my kids are properly restrained in a car.

Kristi


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## CherryBomb (Feb 13, 2005)

Every single time a baby dies after being thrown out of a car, or being left in it in hot weather, or a kid shoots herself, or a million other preventable things, the parents start crying, "It was just for a minute," "we were only in town," "why us," etc, etc. I feel zero sympathy for those people. I'm sure that sounds callous, but I have nothing but anger for people who should know better (which is most Americans). My heart breaks for the babies and children, because they depend on us completely to keep them safe. Many areas are grey, but some are not. Carseats, imo, are one of those.

No one ever thinks it will happen to them. But we have thousands of children a year dying from those things, it has to happen to someone. Why _not_ you?

One good thing I can say about Indiana is that come July, we're going to have some of the strictest child-restraint laws in the country.

NO ONE in my car is allowed to remove their seatbelt. My mother (of all people!) took hers off the other week to get something out of her pocket, and you should've heard my daughter go off on her! "Grandma, we do NOT take our seatbelts off when the car is moving. That is NOT safe!" And on and on. I take seatbelt safety seriously, and so does my daughter. If we couldn't pull over to feed her, she cried until we could. I'd much rather have a hungry and upset baby than a dead one with a full stomach.

It's hard to comment on cultural differences since I don't have an intimate knowledge of that, so I won't.


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

We always pulled over and just figured feeding time into the driving schedule.







Were there times the kid was screaming for a few minutes until we could get to a stopping place? Sure, but unstrapping him/her from the car seat was *not* an option in my mind for the reasons some pp's have related in horrible detail. I know some folks have brought up extreme circumstances such as traffic jams, but the OP stated that she did this _often_.

If you can't bf while the baby is restrained in the seat (I can't either), and you anticipate *not* being able to stop for feedings for some reason, then why not pack some EBM in a bottle? I know, I know, not all babies will take a bottle (including my ds), but many will. I'd at least _try_ it. They sell little bottle warmers for the car if you find yourself in this situation frequently.

Bottom line, I just don't buy the justification for nursing a baby in a moving vehicle. So what if "other cultures" don't think it's so important? We know that it *is* important if you travel on US roads.

Quote:

funny this comes up here...... I am on a local AP list and was completely shocked when numerous moms confessed to not strapping their babies into carseats when they were crying because it was so "un-AP" and cruel.
Mama2kyla, I had a similar experience. Not with a group of people, but with a woman I know IRL who is very AP, child-centered, etc. I was *shocked* to see her drive away from a playgroup with her very young children standing up in the back seat! I find it hard to get past that with her. We were never more than aquaintances, and it'll probably never go farther than that because I now have a hard time respecting her as a parent, KWIM? While I *highly* disagree with breastfeeding an unrestrained baby in a moving car, I can see what would drive someone to do it, and probably wouldn't loose respect for someone over that. But that was not the case here -- she was the one driving (the only adult in the car). She just didn't buckle them in!


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

My dh is from a communtiy in southern Europe where carseats are ***rare***. People climb into autos that are supposed to seat 5 woith belts, and then cram 12 people into them. Mostly, they get to where they need to go unscathed. But not so infrequently, folks do crash, and unsecured children do die.

The cars are small, and families usually have 2 kids, and then a grandparent or maiden aunt or two. People do take chances. Cars are not as cheap , and most Europeans do not tend to drive large vehicles. Carseats are def not top priority in some areas. But it's not that folks don't get killed. They do. My dh's family did laugh at me when i brought our carseat. It was a pain...in my dh's family it seems a picnic needs to include many, many people---which is wonderful--- byt thay are all driving in the same car. I always strapped the baby in- and myself. The others all sat piled on each other's laps.


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## jenoline (Nov 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lynski*
The second reason is it's the law. Not having them in the car seat is not only a crime, but is considered child abuse.

Actually, in many states there is an exception built into the law that says you the child may be out of their seat if you need to attend to their "personal needs". Not safe, not recommended, but legal.


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## Rainbow Brite (Nov 2, 2004)

We pull over. In fact, on our first long car trip, we chose a route 1.5 hours longer than the regular route just so that we would always be able to pull over in case dd wanted to eat or take a break. It was a very long trip, but I'd do it again any time. I would never take her out of the car, I would never lean over her while driving to feed (have done this parked when she wanted more after strapping her back in) and I will not let her sit and cry if I can help it.
That's just us.


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## cheery (Jul 29, 2004)

some folks ask, why not jsut pull over to nurse. well, that is what we always did ... until one day duringa 3 hour drive from austin to houston, timed for just after lunch so that dd could sleep through the ride, we get stuck in traffic and she decides she needs to nurse again. so we endure the traffic jam somehow, then finally pull over, nurse and she's asleep again. till i put her in the carseat and then she wakes up. so i take her out and nurse again adn she falls asleep and then i put her back int eh carseat and she wakes up. so this time i finish bucklig her in to the carseat and then lean over her to nurse her down. as soon as she is unlatched i instruct my friend to start the car. that was the first time i nursed dd in her carseat, and yes, it was while pulled over. but afterwards i realised i could do the same without pulling over.

i have never kept dd out of the carseat in the US while anyone was driving but i ended up doing so twice in England, both times due to some poor planning - like my frined drops me somewhere but then her dh comes to pick me up - without the carseat - or we end up going somewhere with too many people in the car and so i have to carry dd on my lap. funny that these minor errors NEVER happen to us here in the US. So I guess there is some attitude. But I think it is a healthy attitude and I am all for it. Sure there are more dangerous things than not using a carseat - so let's not do those either. Yes, probably, overall it is more impt to bf than to use a carseat, but hey how on earth woudl this be an either/or. I mean, yes, bf is optional while carseat is mandatory, but as a card-carrying lactivist i really think it is a poor argument to say that carseat in any way hampers ones ability to bf. and i dont recommend that everyone do what i (used to ) do either but then probably we should avoid such long drives. Not avoid carseats!!!


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## Flor (Nov 19, 2003)

When I was living in Mexico, this family I knew would let their child (about2) free in teh back seat. He had a car seat, but chose to get out of it. We were cruising down the highway, going way too fast as everyone always seems to do there, and his favorite thing to do was hang on to the bar over the back window with his feet on the window like a little monkey!! This used to freak me out even though I wasn't a mom yet. Their attitude was that you can't controll everything and it'll be your time or it won't. . .I just can't put that much faith in the universe. I'll do what I can and a car seat seems like a little thing. Maybe it is American to believe that we have some control over our fates. But, as I keep write about lately, I was in one finder bender and one near miss this month. Neither were my "fault." I am so thankful my son wasn't in the car EVEN IN HIS CAR SEAT!


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## Bleu (Mar 6, 2004)

I pretty much have two words on the subject: Pull. Over.

Seriously, yeah, it cramps your style. Yeah, I had to forego a lot of things that I wanted to do because Bleuet was not a carseat fan. We took the train. We walked. We didn't go on vacation or any type of road trip for two years. We stayed home a LOT. But it's illegal and that teeny tiny statistic could be you.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cortsmommy*
Well babies don't sit in car seats in limos or in taxis or on buses either. I think the carseat thing is yes a safety precaution and yes it does save lives but we don't all wreck everyday.

Some limo/taxi companies will put a car seat in the car if you request it when you order the vehicle. I also know of people who put their own carseat into the taxi/limo, yeah it'd be a pain, but if you're taking the taxi to the airport, you'll probably need the carseat anyway.

Buses are a mixed issue. Buses have way fewer accidents than other vehicles, drive slower than most cars, and are usually much more massive than whatever they have a collision with. So there's less of the jolting that causes objects to be tossed about. I personally would feel safe riding with a baby in a sling. I would not feel safe if all I had was my arms.

Lightrail/EL is the way to go, they have rear facing seats!


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

So does bumper to bumper traffic count as "pulled over"? I'm assuming that you have control over when the car starts moving again.


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## Brisen (Apr 5, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MerryOne*
I've seen kids that could walk in the infant seats







and heard the mother's make excuses for it.

My third child is 9 months old today, and still small enough for her infant bucket seat. Her oldest brother was walking well by 9 months. He's not a big kid, I imagine he would likely have still been small enough for the bucket seat then, too.

I did lean over/unstrap myself a few times to nurse -- on long car trips, where there was no safe place to pull over -- but I have since learned about the danger that *I* would pose to everyone else in the vehicle (as others have stated here), so now I would pull over instead. I would probably make an exception for a traffic jam where we basically weren't moving and couldn't pull over.


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## *bejeweled* (Jul 16, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CherryBomb*
Every single time a baby dies after being thrown out of a car, or being left in it in hot weather, or a kid shoots herself, or a million other preventable things, the parents start crying, "It was just for a minute," "we were only in town," "why us," etc, etc. I feel zero sympathy for those people.

My heart breaks to read your statement.








I hope you never ever make a mistake.


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

NO ONE in my car is allowed to remove their seatbelt. My mother (of all people!) took hers off the other week to get something out of her pocket, and you should've heard my daughter go off on her! "Grandma, we do NOT take our seatbelts off when the car is moving. That is NOT safe!" And
Ds1 does this as well. My dad is horrible about putting his seatbelt on, and anytime he gets int our car ds1 is all over him about it, badgering him until he puts it on!

About bumper to bumper traffic: I did remember one time when we were sitting in gridlock that I took ds out of his carseat and held him on my lap in the backseat. I felt nervous about it, but decided to do it anyway.

NYC: We visited NYC last year, and I agonized over the carseat decision. In the end, we decided not to bring one. And yes, we did drive in some taxis, and it made me really skittish. I was thinking about ds the whole time. We tried to take the subway as much as possible. I sooo wish there had been taxis with carseats.

I got a lot of flack from my family when ds1 was a baby about being so strict about never taking him out of the carseat. My dad used to argue with me that if he was driving it was okay because he has a safe car and is a good driver.







Now that ds2 is here, they are used to it, and have stopped giving me grief about it.


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## Jennisee (Nov 15, 2004)

I've actually found that most people of my parents' or grandparents' generation know someone who lost a child in a car accident before there were car seats. It's one of those things that's "not talked about," but once I asked, I found out about _several_ cases in my small, rural community.

I couldn't imagine taking DD out of her carseat in a moving vehicle. As crazy as it sounds, one of the biggest driving hazards around here is hitting deer. You can be driving down the road, being your responsible self, no other car for miles, when a deer darts out of the brush in the ditch. That is always in the back of my mind. I am ashamed to say that I have leaned over her carseat to nurse her, but I have been educated by this thread and won't be doing that again. So I thank you all for that.

As far as how we deal w/ it, I rarely drive anywhere w/ my car seat-hater. We have skipped weddings, graduations, parties, play groups, etc. b/c it was too far of a drive. When we do go somewhere, I sit in back w/ DD to entertain her. We also try to time it so that she will be tired and nap during rides. We try to do all our shopping at stores less than 20 minutes away. We allow extra time for stopping if necessary. Even w/ all this, we never drive longer than 45 minutes w/ her. The exception to that is the 3 hour drive to my mom's that we have done twice--driving only in the middle of the night while DD sleeps. Yes, this is all very inconvenient and style cramping, but I will do anything *safe* I can do to prevent her from crying.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *srain*
I'd tell these folks that they should reconsider the car trip instead!


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:

So does bumper to bumper traffic count as "pulled over"? I'm assuming that you have control over when the car starts moving again.
Not always. I don't know what the stastics are over all, but here in Michigan we have had a couple of situations in the last few years where slow moving/jammed traffic resulted in multi-car pile-ups when someone toward the back of the line rammed into the car in front of him/her. The farther up the line you are in the collision, the worse the impact is, both from behind and in front as your car is rammed into the car in front of you. In one pile-up, there was at least one fatality and in another there were some quite serious injuries. One pile-up involved something like 70+ cars, the other involved a couple hundred. I think both situations were complicated by bad weather, so maybe a regular rush-hour traffic situation would be different. But you never know when someone will be fiddling with the radio or something and not notice the slowed traffic in time.

Just something to think about. I can see how a screaming baby in a traffic jam would drive someone to do just about anything. I wouldn't be able to promise that I would *never* unbuckle them in that situation if we were stuck there for a long time. It would be a tough call, though.


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jennisee*
I've actually found that most people of my parents' or grandparents' generation know someone who lost a child in a car accident before there were car seats. It's one of those things that's "not talked about," but once I asked, I found out about _several_ cases in my small, rural community.

My friend, born in the 60's, has permanent, life-altering injuries from a car accident she was in as a small child with no car seat.


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## Kundalini-Mama (Jul 15, 2002)

For the record, I have never taken my kids out of their carseats while it was in motion, and since I live up in VT, I don't really encounter any traffic either. So they stay in the seats.

I have nursed my 2nd DS about 3x in the carseat, obviously we pull over the other times he needs to nurse or is fussy and needs to be held. When I nurse him in the car, both out belts are on. I'm not sure exactly how it works, but it does.

If this was my 1st experience w/a child, I would be aghast that all you mamas on here just don't simply pull over whne your child needs to nurse. Yes, it makes the trip longer, yes, its a pain, but you do what you gotta do.

But this is not my opinion, and this is not my opinion b/c of my first son, who was extremely HN and has some SID issues as well. Whenever he got in the car, he would start crying, and w/i 30 seconds, puke all over himself. This happened every time I would take him out of the seat to nurse him and then put him back in. The only thing that calmed him was nursing in the seat. I didn't want to nurse him in the seat. I *wanted* to pull over, I didn't want to contort my body like that.

In the beginning, I was steadfast about pulling over. A one hr trip took easily, 4-5 hrs. I tried to suck it up, take less trips (we rarely travelled as it was), we had to go visit family, it was a 5 hr trip. With nursing him in the seat the trip still took over 9 hrs. If I were going to pull over and nurse him, the trip would have easily taken over 24 hrs--we would have had to gotten a hotel.

Sometimes pulling over is just not that easy.

Amy


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

I totally agree with all of you that carseats are important. And what I meant by my post was a different thing. I wasn't looking for opinions on not using carseats or explanations on why it's so important. I know that. I was looking at why as a country, not using a carseat is looked at as a crime, and yet other forms of "child abuse" such as circumcision, or something as not breastfeeding, is a choice parents have to make. I think as a society we are being hipocritical!!

Ofcourse I think carseats are life-savers now, but I still don't feel as strongly as you do about them because I truly believe it is a cultural thing. I wanted to see why 'some' kinds of judgement are allowed in a society, and some are not. If my child had an accident (God forbid) and he was unbuckled, like someone else said, the nurse in the ER would look at me like a child abuser. And yet that same nurse will, 24 hours later, go up to the nursery and strap a perfect baby down and cut part of his penis off. see where I'm going?? It just doesn't make sense to me. As a society we set standards for what is acceptable and what is not based on what the mainstream think.


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

There has been a campaign to educate and promote the use of car seats here in the United States.

Quote:

In the 1970s, faced with a working safety device for children but not being able to convince the general populace that they were a needed accessory for child care, there was a massive push to educate the public on safety seats and the dangers posed to children from conventional lap belts.

Members of the medical community, consumer groups, safety seat manufacturers, and insurance companies among others got together and showed the general public that safety seats for children were a necessary device for keeping their children alive in the case of a collision.

They also managed to convince various levels of governments, and some states started passing laws requiring the use of safety seats for young children. Tennessee was the first state to do so, and between 1978 and 1985 every single state was to follow suit. There has been little backlash toward these laws, as the general populace sees safety seats as a necessary precaution.

By 1984, nearly half of the population aged 0-4 was riding in some form of child safety car seat. Those numbers continue to grow to this day, where nearly all of the children requiring a safety seat are in one when they go anywhere in a vehicle.
from http://www.pregnancy-place.com/The_H...ves_Lives.html

When my siblings and I were babies they just didn't have car seats in wide use. Despite never using one for their own children, my parents would not go anywhere with their grandkids without them buckled in a seat though today. They are happy to have car seats. Maybe it is like people say "when you know better, you do better".
In our car we do not move without everyone wearing a seat belt- even adults. My dh has had friends and family killed in car accidents because they weren't wearing a seat belt. A couple of years ago we went to the funeral of one of his teenage cousins who died because she wasn't wearing a seat belt. I'd never want to go to a baby's funeral because they weren't fastened in their car seat.
If I were breastfeeding I'd plan to take a bottle (you can bottle breast milk too you know) or be prepared to stop as soon as I could (as hard as it is emotionally, crying isn't going to actually kill my baby- being flung about a car probably would) or do some acrobatic manuevers with everyone strapped in. Or not get in the car with my child.

I don't think it is hippocritical.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kleine Hexe*
My reason is this. If there was an accident and my child was seriously injured, maimed, or killed I could never *ever* forgive myself. I know I could not live with the guilt I would have. Maybe others could forgive themselves but I know I could not. Ever. The guilt would consume me.

ok, this really hit on what my point is. You say guilt would consume you. Is that because society hasmade you feel that way? Because they have insisted on the carseat issue so many times, that you're terrified of feeling the guilt they have created?

The reason for this question is because parents that vaccinate (myself included) whose children are damaged by the vaccine forever, for example, would feel that yes, they ARE responsible for the injury but they were truly doing what they FELT was right. Same as circ'ing moms. Ofcourse they are injuring a body part and yet, it is so socially acceptable that there is no guilt (in the event that the circumcision went wrong they would not feel THAT guilty because they would have the support of circ'ing peers, although in my eyes it always does because there is no such thing as a good circumcision, it's like saying, a good finger amputation, kwim?)

This is my whole point. It's like our society reigns and decided what they want us to feel guilty about. Smoking, not using carseats. I hope you all get my point


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## onlyzombiecat (Aug 15, 2004)

No I don't get your point. I feel like you are comparing apples to oranges.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

I think you are just way off base here and as pp said comparing apples to oranges.

I don't want to get into a debate about cir'ing but look in newspapers across the county in any given week and I bet you will find several cases of babies dying because they were not strapped in a car seat. This is simply not the case with circin'g.

And not bf'ing and vaxing. The strict correlation (some would say any correlation) between these and death are very hard to find.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
This is my whole point. It's like our society reigns and decided what they want us to feel guilty about. Smoking, not using carseats. I hope you all get my point









Yes, I see your point ~ to some extent. Private autos are very dangerous for kids. One on the contradictions I've noticed is that we talk A LOT about car seat safety (and merchandise&#8230;money!) and relatively little about reducing the amount of time kids spend in cars in the first place.

But, I think this kind of thing exists for many things in our culture. The stranger abduction focus on child abuse is a perfect example. There seems to definitely be a heightened awareness, fear and even marketing of products for stranger abduction yet that is extremely rare among child abuse cases.

Yes, and smoking vs. other unhealthy habits, prescription drugs vs. "recreational" drugs&#8230;

I doesn't really surprise me though. Growing up in the US, this kind of thing starts to seem normal, unfortunately, and there are a lot of defenses built into the methodology.


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## DaisyRose (Feb 13, 2005)

I totally see your point.

Some mom can take her formula-fed, CIO'd, spanked, circumsized child out in her gas-guzzling SUV, and the only thing she's being judged for is whether or not the baby is in a car-seat.

I lived in Southeast Asia and India and my first child was NEVER in a car seat. Not once.

My second child has NEVER been left to cry in a car. Period. I take her out until we can safely pull over.

I am one of those people who think leaving a baby, especially a really small one, to cry in a car seat is cruel. My solution has, and continues to be, to choose a life that doesn't rely on a car. We live in a walking community and use our wagon much more than our car.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

I understand the cultural thing with carseats. Like some others have mentioned you will find that people from the southern states and maybe some more rural areas of the country use them less. I live in an area of the country where a huge chunk of the population has strong ties to Mexico and I see lots of unrestrained children. I do not think they are necessarily bad parents but I do they they are uninformed and taking HUGE risks

Unintentional injury is the #1 cause of death in children. Not ff, not circing, not vaxing.....unintentional injury. That said, I did not circ and I breastfed. I did not take my children out of carseats to breastfeed and I did not unbuckle myself. I did buckle into the seat next to the carseat and do the breastfeeding lean. I was not aware that that was dangerous and if anyone would like to tell me more....

I pulled over sometimes and did the "lean" at others. If my child had to cry for a few minutes I would comfort them and let them know I was there but I did not take them out. I do not think that would be worth the danger. Drunk, psycho, sleepy drivers are everywhere and the car is a dangerous place to be as it is.

For the OP- I understand your point, I just disagree.

*Accidents occur most frequently close to home, at moderate speeds, in rural areas, and the accidents in rural areas tend to be more serious. The car is an unsafe place to be- especially for children. Anything I can do to better the odds that they will not be injured or killed I will do.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

I'm sorry, I just don't see ANY corelation between what you are comparing. I mean, by my understanding of what you've written, the fact that I formula feed my daughter (yes, by necessity) makes me a child abuser and taking horrible risks, but not so of the person who thinks it's just hunky dorey to have a 30lb projectile loose in the back seat??????
If you want to compare these things, what I would want and ask to see is just how many children/year die in North America from being FF or circed, then compare that to the number of children who die in automobile accidents when they are not properly restrained.
Why are people "brainwashed" to believe it's dangerous to travel with an unrestrained infant---it's really, really simple---because it is. How many babies need to die for that to become fact for you?? I just don't get it, so no, I totally don't get your point at all. The chance of an unrestrained infant *dying* in a very minor car accident is *huge*

All I can say is one thing. I hope like hell you never have to go looking around in a ditch for dead baby who flew through the windshield of his car in a minor accident. I'm guessing if you did, you'd suddenly think proper car safety is at least as important as breast feeding.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
(without it getting heated, please, I really have questions and I'd like to talk about them)
SOOOO.. I don't know how she started talking about carseats and how she doesn't ler her baby cry in the carseat while she is in the car but she also doesn't stop the car when baby is hungry. She will sit in the back of her SUV and nurse her baby, while her dh drives. I said...

"ME TOO". (yes, this is the part where your blood pressure will rise, right?)
well, I don't do this now, because my son no longer needs to nurse every hour. But dh and I did this many, many times when ds was under a year. countless times.

Here's why it's not such a good idea:

http://www.regentsprep.org/Regents/p...t/momkills.htm

http://www.safeprogram.com/video10.htm Here is what an unseatbelted body does when it's flying around in the cab of a car. This isn't a baby, it's an adult, but you get the point.

Here's some easy math. An object's force is weight times speed. A ten-pound baby in a car crash where the car is going 45 miles an hour now weighs and has the force of an object 450 pounds. Imagine...

That 450-pound object smacking you in the skull. Like this:
http://regentsprep.org/Regents/physi...nt/luvudad.htm
That 450-pound object flying toward the windshield.

Long story short, that's why.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Adding- My grandmother (remember that southern culture isn't insistent on childseats) was driving with my cousin in his booster seat (he was two) and was in an EXTREMELY minor fender bender. Nobody was hurt but the force of the (comparatively) tiny collision dislodged the booster seat. She hadn't strapped it in correctly and the whole thing slid forward almost off the seat. Think what would have happened if he hadn't been in one at all. Tiny accidents can have huge consequences.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cortsmommy*
Well babies don't sit in car seats in limos or in taxis or on buses either. I think the carseat thing is yes a safety precaution and yes it does save lives but we don't all wreck everyday.

I'm sorry, but this is such an astoundingly ignorant statement I can't even believe it. In the faint, faint hopes of curing or amending the many logical fallacies this statement presents, I'm refuting these contentions below:

1. The fact that babies don't sit in car seats in limos or in taxis or buses does not mean that it's safe for them to go seatless in ANY of those conditions.

2. WE DO "all wreck everyday"[sic]. I could quote you statistics -- that your chance of getting injured or killed in a car accident is very, very good, that you probably know at least one or two people who've died in cars and know many more who've gotten injured in them, but LOOK AROUND when you commute to work, for God's sake. If you don't believe me, believe the evidence of your senses.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

Wow. Thank you, Shannon. That's a heck of a story. I honestly think that these people who don't use car seats and think it's perfectly OK are just ignorant of basic physics. This makes the lesson clear as day. I hope you saved someone's life with this story.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
I'll just tell one story. When I was a volunteer fire fighter I attended an accident where a baby and his father were both killed. The damage to the car amounted to a grand total of $300.00, the accident was to say the least, incredibly minor. When I pulled up on it I couldn't figure out why on earth we'd even been called, then I saw the the front seat. Mom was nursing baby in the back seat out of his carseat. Dad breaked hard as traffic in front of him slowed down because of a stray dog in the road. He barely hit the vehicle in front of him. Baby went flying out of mom's arms, into the back of daddy's head, breaking dad's neck and killing him instantly, baby then continued to travel to the dashboard where he sustained lethal head injury.
That mother was left without her husband and her child....all so the baby wouldn't be hungry until it was safe to pull off the road.
I may be willing to leave my babe in the carseat while I walk 8' to the ATM, but I'll never have her unrestrained in a moving vehicle.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

The scary thing is that accidents just like that happen every day. Unfortunately the reason they often are not publicized is because too many people think "it's cruel" to the parents who have already lost so much. This may be only my opinion on this, but it's coming from a spot of having to see to many dead children..if you have your child out of his carseat and you are in a crash that kills him, you should be charged with first degree murder. You thought about it and then decided to do it anyway, even though the risks are clearly presented and it's the law.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Oh, and after reading about the cab company who carried car seats with them, I did some checking and both our local cab companies refuse to carry a child without a car seat or booster. They have with them (apparently 60% of their fleet) a convertable seat that goes from 5 lbs right up to a booster that covers up to 80 lbs and all their drivers are trained by the police on properly installing them.
If you call for a pick up and fail to tell them you have a child you don't have a seat for, and that cab doesn't have one, they will tell you to wait for a cab with a seat. In Ontario at least, that driver can be charged with a very heavy fine if he OK's transporting a child with no seat.


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## Treasuremapper (Jul 4, 2004)

I have nursed my babies in the car, but only with them in the carseat. I did once travel in the car with Rosie out of her carseat, because she had thrown up all over her seat and I foolishly had nothing at all to put under her or to clean it with. Fortunately, she threw up less than three blocks from the house and my dh was in the car (this was when she threw up a lot due to her intestinal problems). We thought about walking home, but she was covered with vomit and crying and we just wanted to get her home as soon as possible.

But it was a hard decision at the time, even then. Shannon, what a horrific story.


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)




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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

I don't really get what having only one child has to do with any of it. So what, if you have 2 it's ok to pull 2 out and have multiple projectiles unrestrained?? Sorry, maybe I'll "get it" when I have more than one, but I fail to see how the number of children plays a roll in risking your childs life.


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

lol, that post was only there for a second before I erased it. you caught it, shannon!

ok, in my deleted post, I said it's a lot easier to pull over when you only have one kid.

I did *not* say I take my kids out of their seats instead.

yes, I think you will get what I mean when you have more than one.

eesh, what I want to know is, why are people so self-righteous about their own perfect carseat use? why not just express concern for others instead of this arrogant disdain?

whatever...


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## Starflower (Sep 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
ok, this really hit on what my point is. You say guilt would consume you. Is that because society hasmade you feel that way? Because they have insisted on the carseat issue so many times, that you're terrified of feeling the guilt they have created?

The only way I could see this as a cultural issue is that in North American culture, we are highly educated about traffic safety and car seats (plus they're mandatory by law, at least in my state).

This is where I think the guilt may come in - we are aware of the risks. If I know that a crash with an unrestrained baby can be lethal at worst and dangerous at best, and I decide - oh, just this one time will be OK - and then BAM, just that one time I get into a wreck? I would always wonder "what could I have done differently?" Obviously, I could've pulled over to nurse rather than unbuckling the baby.

It seems to me to be comparable to not baby-proofing my home or not supervising my toddler in a friend's unbaby-proofed home. I want her to be as safe as possible so I use the knowledge I have to help manage her safety.


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## cheery (Jul 29, 2004)

Quote:

The only way I could see this as a cultural issue is that in North American culture, we are highly educated about traffic safety and car seats (plus they're mandatory by law, at least in my state).
well the other cultural issue is that we just spend a lot of time in cars and at high speeds.

besure, i am all in favour of carseats and seat belts. have you ever heard conservative talk radio, ther eare people there opposed to seat belts as well.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

But you know what, I could care less if an adult doesn't buckle up--they're an adult, they're old enough to know the risks and choose whether or not to take the chance, no adult should make that "choice" for a child who can't speak for themselves or make their own educated choice.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

I LOVE that most of the mamas on this board, care enough to ask questions and do their research regarding car seats. I LOVE that many parents are so PASSIONATE about this topic. For those mistaking passion for preaching, please...throw aside your pride just a moment and read the links, watch the crash video, remember you are not the only one driving and it may not be you that screws up and causes a wreck, but it won't matter much to you and your children while you deal with the injury or death that inevitably results. We are blessed to live in the United States of America. We are blessed for the mamas who are MDC members that can tell us in their own experience, how their lives are affected by having to help those injured in car wrecks...these mamas see the end result of how a bad decision leads to tragedy and heart break. I try to visualize myself, raising my children in another part of the world and I can't. I don't know what other mamas do, and I am thankful everyday that although it's somewhat flawed, I have the technology and opportunity to use that technology to keep my kids safe. A PP mentioned the fact that in the American culture, where mass transportation is not a priority, most everyone owns at least one car.
One can draw a distinct corrolation to the amount of people on the roadway, advancements in technology (LATCH, HUGS, stricter crash tests etc.) and the laws and rules that are in place (and changing). Red light running is at an all time high. Our society in general is much more fast paced than it used to be. There are so many causes for this. And one of the results of our faster paced society is speeding. Vehicles weren't and still aren't, designed to transport infants and children. Hence the advent and the subsequent advertisement of specially designed seats to accomodate the needs of our little people. If you do not use the seat correctly, EVERY Time you get into the vehicle with your children, you are playing russian roulette. Period. There is not judgement in that. It is a fact.
I became a Child Passenger Safety Technician to help people. I did a car seat check last week where I documented a MIS-USE RATE OF 100%. YES...that means out of 113 cars that went through my check, EVERY ONE OF THEM had something wrong with the seat itself, the installation, or both.
One of the other reasons why we see such a trend toward advocating car seats and their use is advertisement. The word is getting out via NHTSA and Safe Kids in joint effort with vehicle manufacturers and car seat manufacturers. We have realized that our priority to child passenger safety isn't for the select few. It is for all us with kids...regardless of race, income level, or hell even the type of seat. No judgement....just education. I admit to struggling when after the 50th seat I have checked, I have yet to see any car come through with even a remotely correct install. It is disheartening to say the least. I have heard almost every excuse in the book. There are those who come through my line, I help them and teach them, and they leave. I sometimes see them pull off the road a ways away and they have all jumped out and are changing back what I had just helped them with. Or there are those who charge out of their car and bark orders to you, as if they know what they are talking about and I wonder why they are there. But after all is said and done....I remember that every parent waiting in line to have their seat checked, cared enough to do so in the first place. So, no judgement....just education and facts.

Dallaschildren
CPS tech and mom to 2 sons in seats both in 5 point restraints


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## SillyTreeFairy (May 4, 2005)

My mother use to take us out on long car trips to feed or change us, but I hope that I never find it a neccesity. I've been a stepmother since my dss's was a baby, and we never took him out. Of course, he was bottle feed since his mother didn't want to bf.

I hear many of you talking about kids staying in car seats too long, but we have had the opposite problem. Dh's X keeps upgrading dss too early. For example, she turned him around too early and put him in a booster without a back too soon. Her excuse was b/c he was so tall for his age. Well, we e-mailed her about it and try to address it but it never did any good. What she failed to understand is that carseats are largely based on weight and he was way too light to be held securely with only an over the shoulder harness with a seat that could easily slide out from under his light little bum. (Dh is practically 7ft. so his son does run really tall and skinny.)

I agree with limos and taxis needing to provide them. I would think it important for airlines to carry them as well.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DaisyRose*
I totally see your point.

Some mom can take her formula-fed, CIO'd, spanked, circumsized child out in her gas-guzzling SUV, and the only thing she's being judged for is whether or not the baby is in a car-seat.

I lived in Southeast Asia and India and my first child was NEVER in a car seat. Not once.

My second child has NEVER been left to cry in a car. Period. I take her out until we can safely pull over.

I am one of those people who think leaving a baby, especially a really small one, to cry in a car seat is cruel. My solution has, and continues to be, to choose a life that doesn't rely on a car. We live in a walking community and use our wagon much more than our car.

exactly. You understood my point and the point of this thread. Thank You


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## magemom (Mar 5, 2002)

well, in a month we head south. i will be driving my 5 kids. the teens will be in regular seats as they are 120 and 135 pounds.

The little kids will be in safety seats. they will not be taken out while the van is moving. baby will be bottle fed while driving.

i lived in England when there was a campaign to get kids in seat belts, car seat use was a bonus. i was "abused" as a child, my mom took me home from the hospital in the 70s in a car seat. nurse yelled at her, but the floor doc yelled louder at the nurse. i couldn't imagine ever having a child out of a seat for any reason. ds2 cried for the last 1.5 hours in his seat because he wouldn't stop unless he was out.

7 months ago we went on a 2 day car trip to see family. dh was pissed that i would take the baby out. 5 passengers fussed at me. i did it anyway. i definately knew better. we would pull over sometimes. baby just wanted to be held. no excuses, i did it.

i think i had a purpose to this, but it may be lost. i sure forget.


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## lula (Feb 26, 2003)

I would not have understood very clearly your post until now. Currently, I live in Argentina and here a good percentage of children are not in carseats. The cabs, even the nice one, rarely have back seat belts that work or are even present. It is not possible to call a cab with a carseat. It is hard to even get a rental car with a carseat. I also see lots of "unsafe" carseats being used/sold.

People do not even think of the carseat issue most of the time.

I would not say that carseat usage or not makes someone a "bad" parent. Sure it makes them unsafe, misguided, etc etc but bad is stretching it IMO.

I think in the US we are just taught from the moment we are pg that a carseat is simply expected. It is on every list, the hospital checks etc. We do many things because they are the "safest" and a carseat is on that checklist for most people without thinking about it. We also (in my area at least) rarely, if ever see a child in a car without being in a carseat so we take it for granted. The educational push worked because I am not yet 30 and as a child my siblings/I were some of the first kids to be in a carseat all of the time. (in my area) Now we are shocked if people don't use them.

I think in the US we also have the majority of people using carseats so to not have/use one really stands out more than in some other areas.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Carmen and Daisy Rose, if your child is killed in a crash while you removed him from a safety seat "because it is cruel to leave him crying there"

How will you feel??? If your child dies as a result of your actions, will it be ok because at least he wasn't crying seconds before his tiny skull is shattered against the dash board?? Will it matter to you as you pick out his tiny coffin that at least you were AP enough to let your child die in the name of comfort??

I'm sorry, like I said, I've seen it, I've done CPR on too many dead little ones because their parents thought it was their right to make such a risky choice for them. It's terribly unfortunate that these babies will never grow up to have babies of their own, or never grow old enough to decide for themselves which risks they are prepared to take in their own life.

I worked rescue for 10 yrs, in that time I have seen/dealt with/tried to help 14 children who were killed in car accidents. Of those 14 children *ONE* was properly restrained in a car seat at the time of the accident. I was a good rescue worker, but I had to stop what I did because I just couldn't live through another dead child. I'm guessing Dallas Children may someday "burn out" because of parents who think they know better than all the research and all the professionals, or in my opinion worse than basic ignorance, choose to risk their child's life just so they won't have to make a stop or listen to that child be unhappy until it is safe to make said stop. I'd just like to know how happy you think children are when much of their little body is broken and doctors put them in body casts. I'll just ask you to think of one thing the next time you go to unbuckle your child because he's crying. How will you feel if you can't ever hear that child cry again???


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
we started talking about how the only people that WE know that do this, are not from here (from the US) and that it's like a dirty little secret because if you DARE tell anyone here they will automatically think that you're a bad, irresponsible mother.

My question is.. where does this come from? Was there some kind of a campaign in the US to encourage the use of carseats, that it made it so deep in the minds of people that "carseat=good parent, no carseat=bad parent"? I mean, I agree that carseats are SUPER important, but if I had to put that in a scale and compare it to breastfeeding (since THAT is such a choice here) I'd say carseats are less important than breastfeeding, because carseats only save you IF you have an accident.ry or required by law (not many people own cars, btw) and I never had one when I was a baby OR when my own daughter was a baby (we lived in Chile until she was 15 months)

Hello.

I had my first baby in 1980. It was not law until 1983 when my second baby was born. I still would put my big girl in the back and buckle her up and nurse her brother in my lap in the passenger seat in the front. At that time only babies under eighteen months needed to be in a carseat, so she did not even need to be in a carseat.

Now the law says children up to sixty pounds need to be in a carseat which can be up to nine years of age for some; school buses should then have carseats!!

AND YES!, I nursed my baby when she cried. Why not?

I remember when the first laws were passed and some of the news items that came over the news reels at the time. I can recall one mother in remote Maine being pulled over as she breastfed; her DH was driving. The policman let them off with a warning.

There were even court cases in which the judge ruled that the baby's needs to nurse were more important than the need to be in the carseat, so some common sense and discretion was used.

However, over the years, the people who sat in those first mandatory carseats are the ones now buckling up their own children into carseats. It has been a generation now.

No one can recall what people did in the past.

I can remember STANDING in the backseat of my parents' 1957 Plymouth Belvedere. It was a two door. The backs of the front seats flipped forward, and did NOT snap back in place. So, when my Father stepped suddenly on the brake, everyone, including my two sisters and I STANDING UP in the back, leaned forward with the motion. My mom sat in the front seat, nursing my third sister.

WE ALL LIVED through the experience.

I know that the laboratory evidence with the demolition dummies showed terrible physical damage to little ones in head-on crashes, but most of the people who did the experiments lived the same way I have lived, standing up in the backseat with the front seats un-secured, leaning forward with each braking motion.

The propaganda from the police departments and from the people who do the experiments and from strong enforcement of the law kept us in line.

You should know that some of the early car seats were dangerous. There are now head supports for supporting the little heads of little ones who cannot support their own head in the early months.

Also, regarding seat belts - the first seat belts were lap belts which have been shown to cause lumbar separation in a front end collision; you must know that something was wrong with them when the manufacturers quietly changed over exclusively to shoulder harnesses.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Applejuice, I once drove home after drinking too much and I made it all the way home without killing myself or anyone else---should drunk driving also be fine because lets face it, loads of people do it and don't get hurt????

When we know better, we do better. That's why you don't see just lap belts in cars anymore--we know better and we do better. You're kinda saying that the research that discusses car seat safety is propaganda, but the research that says how bad seatbelts were 15 yrs ago is correct.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Where is the 'nay that' smilie?

Come on people! Does no one want to evolve, get smarter, make things safer? Kids used to die unnecessarily at a much higher rate than they do now- but I guess you're right why make things safer after all you lived through it right. Well the ones who didn't live through it aren't here to say anything.

The art of dying well...this was my favorite chapter in a book I read a long time ago. I don't want my children to die in some lame *ss fender bender. I want to give them them the best possible chance to die after a life lived well or at least not in some stupid, totally preventable way.

If it is so important to that your child cries be immediately gratified and you cannot nurse while you are buckled and they are in a carseat and you are not willing to feed EBM that you are willing to put their life at serious risk then it should be no sweat for you to just PULL OVER. How often is it REALLY impossible to pull over?

I hope to never have myself or my children die in some idiotic way. I wanna go in style....


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## AmandaBL (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kleine Hexe*
Many times have I been bent and contorted into interesting positions to nurse my baby. I can imagine I must have provided entertainment and wonder at passerbys. :LOL More than one person has seen my rear end sticking up in a window or my breast hanging out.

I'd never thought of doing this till I saw Kleine Hexe do it! How stupid am I?!?!? I still remember making my husband stop about 1000X so I could feed my first when he was little.

I don't take the baby out of the carseat unless we stop, & thanks to the visual teachings of Kleine Hexe, I too entertain my fellow drivers with my contortions & bare breast!


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *applejuice*
WE ALL LIVED through the experience.

Except for those who didn't. They aren't here to have this conversation with us, so their voices aren't heard except through folks like Shannon and some others who have shared stories of seeing the broken bodies of those who didn't live through the experience.

Quote:

AND YES!, I nursed my baby when she cried. Why not?
Wow, if the examples of death and distruction shared so far on this thread aren't a big enough reason "why not", then I don't suppose anything can get through.







(Short of having happen to someone you love, perhaps. I so hope that doesn't happen to anyone here.)


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Did you read what I wrote about the lap belts that were in cars until 1989. You and I survived those also.


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## Mom4tot (Apr 18, 2003)

I never unrestrained my child in a moving car. Ds did cry on occassion in the car...loudly







We always pulled over and nursed. I would never take them out their carseats in a moving car.

A friend of mine did this, routinely, when her dd was an infant. Her reasoning, too, was the baby was crying. Well, pull over then. Get off the highway, whatever. I didn't understand it then either.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Applejuice- Are you saying that we should not keep trying to reduce unnecessary deaths because sometimes things don't work and have to be improved?


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

My nephew was burned by a hot metal buckle that laid on his thigh during a car trip; he had several large blisters on his thigh since it moved around when he tried to kick it away. The sun had shown on it through the window and the metal became very hot even though the window was shaded. My sister could not understand why he cried so much en route, then she was horrified to see the huge blisters ... later she was accused of doing this to him with a cigarette or something







, she does not smoke







.

Oh, well, he lived through that also.


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## Charles Baudelaire (Apr 14, 2003)

The only excuse that I can conceive of for doing something as potentially destructive as taking your child out of a car seat in a moving vehicle is just dumb, DUMB, DUMB ignorance.

Ignorance is understandable in countries which don't have the heavy emphasis on vehicular travel that we do, just as many of us in this country are ignorant of the fine points of non-motorized vehicular travel.

That said, though, IN this country, WHEN you've been given the information, the videos, the physics explanation, the personal stories from people _on this board_ who know what they're talking about when babies meet dashboards, there is not one shred of an excuse.

Car seat safety is not like other issues. Car seat safety is a matter of physics, not debate. NO ONE argues about what happens to a body in a moving vehicle because it's immediately provable and repeatable in experiments and there is a crystal-clear connection between the cause (the car crash and unbuckled child) and effect (painful death, irreversible brain damage, dismemberment, disability) -- unlike, say, the vaccination issue.

What in the world could justify this decision besides ignorance or (worse) stupidity? At least ignorance can be cured with knowledge; for stupidity, maybe only experience does it and maybe not even then. I sure hope that no one gets "taught" this lesson the hard way.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SillyTreeFairy*
I agree with limos and taxis needing to provide them. I would think it important for airlines to carry them as well.

HOw about school buses since in my state, children need to be in carseats until they are sixty pounds.

I was sixty pounds until I was nine years old. That would be fourth/fifth grade.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

From Applejuice -

Quote:

My nephew was burned by a hot metal buckle that laid on his thigh during a car trip; he had several large blisters on his thigh since it moved around when he tried to kick it away. The sun had shown on it through the window and the metal became very hot even though the window was shaded. My sister could not understand why he cried so much en route, then she was horrified to see the huge blisters ... later she was accused of doing this to him with a cigarette or something , she does not smoke .

Oh, well, he lived through that also.
How is that at all related to this discussion?

No one is suggesting that you should not try to comfort your child or to see if something can be done to make them more comfortable. NO ONE on this thread suggested that you let your baby scream without checking on them. What is your point, really?


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## ombra*luna (May 1, 2003)

I grew up in the 60's and cars didn't come with seatbelts at the time. My mother's uncle was a NYC police officer who had seat belts installed in my mom's car as a gift because he was "tired of scraping babies off windshields". (I didn't hear that comment at the time, of course, and only found out about it a few years ago from my mom.) When my first child was born in 1990, I guess I was indoctrinated or something, I had her in a car seat (although looking back on it, it probably wasn't all that safe compared to what's available now). My ex got upset with me that I wouldn't let him hold her while I drove, but I guess I loved her more than I did him.

Dh's brother would have been 40 this year but he didn't even make it to his first birthday. He was lying on the floor of the front seat while his mother drove, and was killed when she fell asleep and drove off the road. Dh was four and riding in the backseat unrestrained; he had his leg ripped off (it was hanging on by a tendon and they managed to reattach it .) SIL (then age 3) was in the back too and she was injured, I don't know what injury exactly because dh does not remember and I'm not going to ask her. She's never sober enough to actually converse with, anyway. Their mom died a few years later, of cancer, but IMO it was caused by grief and guilt.

I liked Shannon's analogy. People drink and drive all the time and survive it, but that doesn't mean it's okay to do it. Absolutely the same thing for driving with the baby not in the carseat. I can't see how living in another country or another culture would make it easier to lose your child in a tragedy that could have been prevented.


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## ombra*luna (May 1, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *applejuice*
Did you read what I wrote about the lap belts that were in cars until 1989. You and I survived those also.

We did survive them. In my case it's due to the fact that I was not in any accidents as a child.

I wanted to add also, that although my first two dc's loved the carseats and fell asleep in them almost immediately, little ds (now four) screamed most of the time he was in his carseat until we turned him around (when he was over a year old.) That was a pretty long year. I dreaded going anywhere in the car with him because he was so unhappy. Sometimes he would be OK if everyone in the car sang really loud but you could never, never stop. We didn't go in the car any more than we had to, but there were times we couldn't avoid it, and at those times he cried a lot lot lot. I'd pull over and nurse him as often as I could, but it didn't really matter b/c as soon as I put him back in the car he'd be crying again. I've never had an accident with any of my (or anyone's) kids in the car but have had near misses and scary moments, you really just never know.


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## ombra*luna (May 1, 2003)

And I think carseats in school buses would be a good idea. Even though as a pp mentioned (several pages back), buses are safer than cars for many reasons. When I was a school bus driver I asked the boss about why they didn't make the kids wear seatbelts in buses, and he explained that the bus drivers didn't want it because they couldn't enforce it and didn't want to be held liable, so they lobbied the state legislature and kept school buses from being included in the law.


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

interesting discussion. i understand that it can be just awful to hear a baby crying and want to pick her up and not be able to. it's unnatural, really! but so are cars. think how long humans have been on this planet and how long cars have been around. even just 75 or 100 years ago cars weren't everywhere like they are now in the US. if you're going to be in an unnatural and dangerous contraption like a car i think it's only responsible to take all the safety precautions you can. i have nursed while buckled in myself and with dd2 in the carseat. i felt a little worried about it, though, but hoped my seatbelt would protect us. my carseat says not to feed with a bottle in the car. maybe because that also would be a projectile?


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

wow.

just, wow.

well.







they're *your* babies.

i would think that anyone who practices attachment parenting would necessarily place children's *lives* higher than children's *comfort* but hey, they're not *my* kids.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Applejuice, i'm really trying to figure out what on earth kind of point you're actually trying to make--that you're here typing, of course you survived it. There is a young man on my street who survived being hit by a train--but I really don't see him recomending it as a good practice because "afterall...he survived it didn't he???" My grandfather survived having a huge farm tractor roll over on him, fracturing his back in 5 spaces, again, he doesn't recomend it as a fun trick just cause he survived it.
Are you not getting it that the people who *didn't* survive it aren't alive anymore and therefore have trouble making that point over the internet???? I mean this isn't rocket science--of course you survived it, that doesn't mean it's right!

I tell you what, next week I have to teach a course on repelling from a helicopter with a dog in your arms (needless to say...I don't have many students) When I first started in search and rescue with my dogs we used to tether the dog and tether the human, but we didn't tether the 2 of them together. I lived through MANY jumps while I got my certification, a few of them close calls when I couldn't quite hang on to my 100 lb dog which would make him very dangerous to me if he swung and hit me. It was only about 7 yrs ago that our team said "this is stupid, it will take another 5 minutes to tether the dog to the human, which would make the jump and especially the landing safer. You're welcome to come take one of my courses, but for you, we'll do minimal restraints, after all, look how many people lived through a jump with minimal restraint!


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *klothos*
wow.

just, wow.

well.







they're *your* babies.

i would think that anyone who practices attachment parenting would necessarily place children's *lives* higher than children's *comfort* but hey, they're not *my* kids.









But Klothos, by doing it this way when the child dies you can proudly engrave on their headstone "At least we weren't cruel to him"
Isn't that what true attachment parenting is about??


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## charmander (Dec 30, 2003)

Another mama chiming in to say I'm guilty, too.


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## Greaseball (Feb 1, 2002)

Coming in late, but here is what I have done instead of take my baby out of the carseat in a moving car:

- Limit car trips. Don't force children to do things they do not want to do!
- Pull over and feed. And I mean really pull over, not just be stalled in traffic.
- If I could not pull over due to traffic or to there being no good place, the baby had to cry until I could find a place. I made sure to talk to her the whole time and tell her I was finding a place and would feed her very soon.
- If my older child was there, sometimes I'd bring a bottle of EBM and she would feed the baby.

The fact that other kinds of child abuse or risk-taking are OK doesn't make me feel OK about not using a carseat. ALL forms of child harm should be wrong, but I'm not going to say "Until circ is illegal, you can't make me use a carseat." Way to stick it to the man.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

ok, apparently this discussion has taken a different turn.

Like I said before, I wasn't looking for your comments or critisism, I am secure in myself and think I am a wonderful mama and nothing any of you say will change that. I do use carseats, I think they are VERY important. The reason for my post was another. Klothos, I don't see a reason for your very rude post, since I never said I don't use carseats. The point I wanted to make and my question was what happened that made this such a big issue and why it's different between cultures. That's all I was wondering. I also wasn't asking for advice on what to do when my child is hungry and we are in the car, I think I'm doing a great job so thankyouverymuch.

I do thank the people that have posted that understood my question and tried to think beyond the judgements.


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## scheelimama (Aug 2, 2003)

Well, I had a very close call yesterday which could have been a nasty accident. It was really scary, and we spun. All I was thinking was that my children could have been killed if we had flipped and they weren't buckled in carseats. And they even could have been hurt pretty bad just from us spinning if they hadn't been buckled in. I've never taken them out while the car is in motion. I'm just too paranoid I guess. But really, you never know when you could get into an accident. Things happen. I have nursed both of my babies while in the car too, but I kind of bend over their carseat. No, it's not comfy, but I don't like to stop every time they cry when on a long trip. Anyway, I'm not judging you at all, that's just my reason and it really was a reality check yesterday when we were in that close call.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

oh my gaaawd can we stop it already with the scary stories?? I KNOW, I have BEEN in car crashes with my children in carseats and I KNOW that the carseats saved their lives.

For the last time, the purpose of this thread:

1) to discuss the reasons why we, humans, label each other and determine what right is and what wrong is, sometimes being wrong ourselves in the process.

2) to discuss the influence that society has on us, like for example, campaigns. How as americans we have stopped the smoking rates from going up because of our campaigns, or we have increased carseat use rates, etc...

that's all. all of us here, I'm sure, know the importance of carseats. Please!!


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
Are you not getting it that the people who *didn't* survive it aren't alive anymore and therefore have trouble making that point over the internet???? I mean this isn't rocket science--of course you survived it, that doesn't mean it's right!

Please, there is really no need to insult my intelligence.

For the record, my DS2 IS a rocket scientist and can explain that better than you also.

I was answering the OP's questions and sharing the FACT that I was a mother before there was a law requiring carseats for little ones, and that I do recall how the practice over time became engrained into our culture.

I shared the FACT that not all carseats and seatbelts were entirely safe from the beginning and with modifications, new laws, new requirements, and time have changed.

The first carseat I bought in 1980 was not as sturdy as the one I bought in 1983; more changes were made by 1985 and the carsear I bought in 1992 revealed changes that were unbelieveable...!

I love my children and would never hurt them.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *applejuice*
HOw about school buses since in my state, children need to be in carseats until they are sixty pounds.

I was sixty pounds until I was nine years old. That would be fourth/fifth grade.

I think the issue of busses has already been addressed


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
I think the issue of busses has already been addressed

Sorry, I'll just shut up.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *applejuice*

I was answering the OP's questions and sharing the FACT that I was a mother before there was a law requiring carseats for little ones, and that I do recall how the practice over time became engrained into our culture.


thank you so much for saying that. I guess not everyone understood my question and could get to the depth of what you're getting to. I find it interesting how we can engrain things into our cultures. I think it's a phenomemon that not many question. I question the motives, the reasons, why that and not the other, etc... if you think about it, it's such an interesting subject, the human mind is so complex and interesting.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *applejuice*
Sorry, I'll just shut up.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
thank you so much for saying that. I guess not everyone understood my question and could get to the depth of what you're getting to. I find it interesting how we can engrain things into our cultures. I think it's a phenomemon that not many question. I question the motives, the reasons, why that and not the other, etc... if you think about it, it's such an interesting subject, the human mind is so complex and interesting.









ITA, and I am glad that I could help.

I recall my mom buying a car seat for my baby brother with a toy steering wheel attached in 1963. It was cute, but not very safe; it was actually straight up and high, but padded. She got it with her trading stamps (Blue Chip Stamps). It had a horn also that was very annoying.


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## applejuice (Oct 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
I think the issue of busses has already been addressed

What was your point in posting this anyway?


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
thank you so much for saying that. I guess not everyone understood my question and could get to the depth of what you're getting to. I find it interesting how we can engrain things into our cultures. I think it's a phenomemon that not many question. I question the motives, the reasons, why that and not the other, etc... if you think about it, it's such an interesting subject, the human mind is so complex and interesting.









I think, also though, that our culture itself has changed. I am not that old (29 next month) and when I was a child there were more small stores (so you didn't have to drive so far to the big ones) and many less cars on the roads. It just seems logical that cars would need to be made safer as we use them more.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *applejuice*
What was your point in posting this anyway?

Feel free to take it to PM.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Oh and to wax further on the subject of our changing culture, though *it* has already been stated before I think that the US is

1) a particularily heavy car using country
and
2) a country who embraces the idea of "buying" safety and health. Honestly, in the case of car safety (barring just never using a car) car seats are probably your easiest, most economical choice. But in many other areas people just want to outlay the money and forgo the time & effort
3) often very concerned with appearances. Carseats are something easily seen so easily enforced/enforcable wheras many other parenting decisions are easier to slip "under the radar" as it were
4) has lots of expendable $. And no one wants to think about if their child died and could have been saved by the outlay of $50 (when, in the grand scheme of things, $50 is not that much ON A GLOBAL SCALE for most people in the US)


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
Oh and to wax further on the subject of our changing culture, though *it* has already been stated before I think that the US is

1) a particularily heavy car using country
and
2) a country who embraces the idea of "buying" safety and health. Honestly, in the case of car safety (barring just never using a car) car seats are probably your easiest, most economical choice. But in many other areas people just want to outlay the money and forgo the time & effort
3) often very concerned with appearances. Carseats are something easily seen so easily enforced/enforcable wheras many other parenting decisions are easier to slip "under the radar" as it were
4) has lots of expendable $. And no one wants to think about if their child died and could have been saved by the outlay of $50 (when, in the grand scheme of things, $50 is not that much ON A GLOBAL SCALE for most people in the US)

yes, this makes good sense to me!

But for example, I wonder, why don't we do the same with breastfeeding? and who makes these decisions on what campaigns to do and which ones to not do?? I remember that last year when this whole breastfeeding ads being watered down thing happened, I thought to myself, this is silly. If these people are willing to show a dying child in a carseat accident why not show the WHO saying that one million children die every year because of not being breastfed. Or the money we are WASTING by having this lovely "second choice" of baby feeding. Obviously, it's not exactly the same, but I wonder who makes the decisions that some issues are more urgent than others. I also agree with you that as a country we use cars A LOT and this is a big reason why carseats are a big thing (with all reason!) thanks for elaborating


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

Hmmm- I hadn't thought of the breastfeeding/circing thing in global terms. You are right that children in other countries die because of the formula propaganda (watering formula to extend it, unclean water, etc.) and we could think of female circing as part of the circing issue... So while those are generally not life-or-death issues in the U.S. they are other places.


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
1) to discuss the reasons why we, humans, label each other and determine what right is and what wrong is, sometimes being wrong ourselves in the process.

2) to discuss the influence that society has on us, like for example, campaigns. How as americans we have stopped the smoking rates from going up because of our campaigns, or we have increased carseat use rates, etc...

You are bringing up a larger philosophical issue that comes up here all the time. It's the issue of whether we should blame individual parents (or individuals, generally) for their bad decisions, or whether we need to create public policies to reduce general risk.

We have a big problem with this issue here in the US (and since this board originates in the US, on the MDC board as well.) Our culture has a very limited sense of social contract. We would prefer as much as possible for people to be entirely free to make their own decisions, and we would like to be able to blame them if those decisions are wrong!

Take the issue of breastfeeding, as we often do. There are public policies at work that have reduced breastfeeding rates, and there has been a public campaign by mothers and other activists to bring them back up again. Yet we still get into spirals of discussing whether you should judge a woman who is feeding her baby with formula, etc. etc.

With carseats I think the general trend is positive. Carseat use is becoming increasingly normal. Carseats, though flawed, are improving as a way to ensure children's safety. (Oh my gosh, it was so scary to try to even buy one, they've all been recalled at least once!







) I think it's a good thing for states to be willing to extend themselves to make laws about carseat use, when there seems to be so much public good in their use. Only some states in the US have motorcycle helmet laws.

(Here's a link to a chart on helmet laws, for your interest:
http://www.gwrra.org/helmetlaws.html )

I don't really want to judge all the individual parents who do or don't use carseats 100% properly. I do want to come out in favor of campaigns to increase carseat use, as they seem to have had a positive impact.

I think policy decisions are based on who is lobbying. There is no "anti-car safety" lobby. There is a lobby of formula manufacturers, and as we saw with the recent public health campaign for breastfeeding in the US, the formula makers have more power than other concerned constituencies (like breastfeeding moms!)


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
But for example, I wonder, *why don't we do the same with breastfeeding*? and who makes these decisions on what campaigns to do and which ones to not do?? ...Or the money we are WASTING by having this lovely "second choice" of baby feeding.

We do the same for breastfeeding in that we look for a simple solution that you can get with money (formula/carseats) rather than one that may take more time (bfeeding/changing transportation patterns). And in both cases the more "mainstream" view has something you can see, something you have to buy to be a "good" parent (carseats/formula). And in some ways I think that while there are people who take pride in buying the best, most expensive carseats (even though more $ does not necessarily equal better quality) there are others who take pride in buying the best, most expensive formula (even when more $ does not necessarily equal better quality).


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain optimism*
You are bringing up a larger philosophical issue that comes up here all the time. It's the issue of whether we should blame individual parents (or individuals, generally) for their bad decisions, or whether we need to create public policies to reduce general risk.

We have a big problem with this issue here in the US (and since this board originates in the US, on the MDC board as well.) Our culture has a very limited sense of social contract. We would prefer as much as possible for people to be entirely free to make their own decisions, and we would like to be able to blame them if those decisions are wrong!

Take the issue of breastfeeding, as we often do. There are public policies at work that have reduced breastfeeding rates, and there has been a public campaign by mothers and other activists to bring them back up again. Yet we still get into spirals of discussing whether you should judge a woman who is feeding her baby with formula, etc. etc.

With carseats I think the general trend is positive. Carseat use is becoming increasingly normal. Carseats, though flawed, are improving as a way to ensure children's safety. (Oh my gosh, it was so scary to try to even buy one, they've all been recalled at least once!







) I think it's a good thing for states to be willing to extend themselves to make laws about carseat use, when there seems to be so much public good in their use. Only some states in the US have motorcycle helmet laws.

(Here's a link to a chart on helmet laws, for your interest:
http://www.gwrra.org/helmetlaws.html )

I don't really want to judge all the individual parents who do or don't use carseats 100% properly. I do want to come out in favor of campaigns to increase carseat use, as they seem to have had a positive impact.

I think policy decisions are based on who is lobbying. There is no "anti-car safety" lobby. There is a lobby of formula manufacturers, and as we saw with the recent public health campaign for breastfeeding in the US, the formula makers have more power than other concerned constituencies (like breastfeeding moms!)

very interesting. I also support the carseat use campaigns, because obviously it has done nothing but good- it can't harm a child to be in a carseat and it benefits children because it can save their life. I also agree with what a previous poster said, about children not being able to protect themselves, so the least we can do is make sure they are as safe as possible. I completely agree. It's sad though, to me, that WE can't decide what's important here. See, if I made the rules, circumcision would be made illegal and considered sexual and child abuse. Formula would be made available by prescription only and would be treated as what it truly is. A supplement/replacement for when nursing is not possible (I ff'ed my baby girl from 3 months on, btw, so I know what it's like to not be able to bf for medical reasons) and I would keep carseats mandatory BUT I would create a carseat/safety restraint that would allow the mama to nurse and hold her baby (a girl can dream, right?)


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Oh, and I also wanted to add that I assume that many changes are the result of "progress" (not progress in the sense of improving, but progress in the sense of something that occurs as time goes one).

I was reading recently that the obesity rates in France are mirroring those of the US in the late 80s early 90s. They are on the same basic trajectory, but 10-15 years "behind". I think you see this ripple effect outwards from the US for many things, but esp for consumer items. It will be interesting to see what has moved "on" from the US in another 10-15 years. (BTW I realize that Europe generally has much safer car seats than the US... just referring to many *general* trends).


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

tiredx2.. I wanted to say, I know what you mean. My country is always a bit "behind" the US. For example, people smoke everywhere in Chile right now. malls, airports, stores, restaurants, in front of their children, IN the car with their unrestrained children in someone's lap in the back (it sounds so shocking to me now! I bet next time I go to Chile I'll be looking down on everybody without wanting to, because I am so used to the laws here) and they are just *starting* to get anti-smoking campaigns, stopping cigarrette advertising everywhere, etc.. so I know "where we are going" from where we are right now there. As for the carseats, there is no money in Chile to implement such laws. Most people can't even afford formula there, so they HAVE to breastfeed. and most people don't have cars, so they have to walk or take public buses. It makes me very critical of my country. I could NEVER smoke in front of my children, for example (or not in front of my children, or at all!) but 3 years ago when I was in Chile, even though I didn't do it, it didn't seem all that bad because the danger of cigarretes was not made public. You *knew* cigarretes caused cancer, but you didn't *really* _know_... kwim?


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## Aura_Kitten (Aug 13, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
I do use carseats, I think they are VERY important. The reason for my post was another. Klothos, I don't see a reason for your very rude post, since I never said I don't use carseats.

i apologize ~ i sincerely thought you said you take your baby out of the carseat to feed him/her when they start crying.

you're not USING the carseat if you have it in the car and the baby is taken OUT of it.

and fwiw, just because something is a law doesn't make it any different ~ that is, just because carseats didn't used to be mandated by law _doesn't make them any less important_.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
Oh and to wax further on the subject of our changing culture, though *it* has already been stated before I think that the US is

1) a particularily heavy car using country
and
2) a country who embraces the idea of "buying" safety and health. Honestly, in the case of car safety (barring just never using a car) car seats are probably your easiest, most economical choice. But in many other areas people just want to outlay the money and forgo the time & effort
3) often very concerned with appearances. Carseats are something easily seen so easily enforced/enforcable wheras many other parenting decisions are easier to slip "under the radar" as it were
4) has lots of expendable $. And no one wants to think about if their child died and could have been saved by the outlay of $50 (when, in the grand scheme of things, $50 is not that much ON A GLOBAL SCALE for most people in the US)

yes, that. ^

and as for breastfeeding ~ big corporations put their $$ behind the most profitable thing, and for them that's formula. and in countries like the US where *most* mamas here have access to clean water and safe housing, regular doctor visits, access to food (even through programs like WIC) ~ we just don't see the #'s dying from a lack of breastfeeding that we see in 3rd world countries. IF babies were dropping dead from ABM we would se campaigns against it, or manufacturers reformulating it (as happened, for example, when they realized babies were being malnourished -- vit D deficiencies, etc).

circumcision rates *are* dropping ~ through grassroots movements, men seeking restoration, mamas refusing to have their boys undergo the knife... and largely through the spread of information. just a few years ago the US saw something like a 90% circ rate and now that's down around 60%.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
And in both cases the more "mainstream" view has something you can see, something you have to buy to be a "good" parent (carseats/formula).

Yep, Money!

Ever wonder why used car seats are so taboo, why we need to constantly upgrade for weight and new technology? If they could find that kind of marketability for breastfeeding, I'm sure it would be "the next new thing".

And, I agree, we (as a culture in the US) like to spend money on keeping our kids safe and happy.


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## Kavita (Dec 7, 2004)

I think the point has been made by previous posters, but I agree that there are cultural differences in car seat use, and also the issue of car safety in general. I have lived in Costa Rica (been a while since then) and traveled throughout Central American and India, which is DH's country of orgin. I think the consciousness of car seat safety is just different in different places. For one, in the U.S. it's probably a huge majority of the population that drives/owns a car. Also, although in Indian cities traffic is incredibly insane and congested with cars, buses, rickshaws, pedestrians, huge trucks, and cows to boot, much more driving is done by professional drivers than by the average citizen (bus drivers, auto-rickshaw drivers, taxis, and private chauffers are much more common than single family cars. For instance my SIL has as a benefit from her company the ability to not only lease a car, but a driver as well.) These guys are GOOD! Driving there is an art, it's like a dance where all the cars/drivers are interacting with each other in an intricate ballet on the road. They are not talking on cell phones, distracted, paying attention to other people in the car--if you weren't completely and totally intently focused on driving at every second you'd just get into an accident about every two minutes!! Here I don't see that kind of sense amongst drivers that we're all kind of driving on the road and in it together--it's very individual. I doubt that there are fewer accidents per cars, but at least in the cities there is not so much high-speed driving, and also there is such a high population of people in general related to the number of people driving that I'm sure that it's not statistically as big a cause of infant death as some other things there.

I also think that in the U.S. we think that death is the worst thing that can happen to us, and we are very out of contact with the day to day reality of death--we do everything we can to separate ourselves from this reality, and have institutions that sort of "sanitize" the reality. We also place a high priority on controlling our fate, rather than accepting what happens in a more fatalistic manner. I think that in places with more widespread poverty, epidemic diseases, high infant morbidity/mortality rates, there is more of a familiarity with the concept of disease or death and a little bit more acceptance that there are things that are just out of our control. There are so many things that can happen with an infant that are totally out of your control in that kind of a situation that a car accident is probably the least of your worries--whereas in the US, a lack of clean water or inability to afford basic medical care or an epidemic disease or malnutrition is probably very unlikely to kill your baby. So it's like the concept of Mazlow's hierarchy of needs, sort of--basic survival needs need to get fulfilled before "higher" needs get fulfilled. The fact that we worry about car seats and place such high importance on them may reflect the fact that statistically, there are not as many things besides a car accident in the U.S. that are likely to kill our babies! Also, we just have lots more baby "stuff" than people in some other places. (Car seats, swings, strollers, changing tables, baby bathtubs, etc etc.)

Just my 2 cents worth! Before anyone begins flaming, yes, I do believe in using car seats and I'm not justifying not using them!!









One slightly OT thing, but still on the subject of car seats: I was thinking about them a lot lately b/c we were looking for one for our baby-on-the-way. I mentioned to my mom that we had decided on a convertible seat, and she was asking about what type of seat we were looking at. I was telling her about the top rating by consumer reports, the excellent crash test results, blah and etc. Her question: "Does it have a handle?" So I pointed out that I was not planning on being the type of parent who carried the baby around in the car seat 24/7, seemingly in the attempt to never have to actually hold or touch my baby!! She agreed but was also making the point that sometimes if the baby is sleeping and you have to pop in somewhere it's nice to just not have to wake the baby up taking it out of the carseat. (Which I'm sure is true, but still . . . . ) I read somewhere that something like 80% of all carseats are incorrectly installed and used. I started wondering if the fact that so many people in this culture seem to treat car seats like they are meant to carry or seat a baby in a grocery store or a restaurant or even dangling the huge carseat with the baby in it along in a mall or street fair or such, results in people sort of forgetting that they are first and foremost safety devices meant for use in the car? Do people just sort of get sloppy about them for this reason, and especially if they are always in/out of the car? Just a musing . . . .


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## mamakay (Apr 8, 2005)

Quote:

I read somewhere that something like 80% of all carseats are incorrectly installed and used. I started wondering if the fact that so many people in this culture seem to treat car seats like they are meant to carry or seat a baby in a grocery store or a restaurant or even dangling the huge carseat with the baby in it along in a mall or street fair or such, results in people sort of forgetting that they are first and foremost safety devices meant for use in the car? Do people just sort of get sloppy about them for this reason, and especially if they are always in/out of the car? Just a musing . . . .
Wow...I hadn't thought of it in that way!
Maybe...if it's primarily a mobile chair, the "keep your child alive" part becomes secondary.
Hmmm....


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## oetien (Mar 25, 2005)

What do you think about nursing your baby in the sling







: on a back seat while somebody else's driving? I think it seems practical, though not as safe as carseats..







:


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *oetien*
What do you think about nursing your baby in the sling







: on a back seat while somebody else's driving? I think it seems practical, though not as safe as carseats..







:

I imagine the physics involved in a car accident would be likely to pull the baby out of the sling. Even if it didn't, I'd be worried about what the extreme forces would do to the baby's neck as it was thrown deeper into the sling. The fact that the sling is tied around the mother's neck and back could probably cause severe injury to her as well. Her hips and one shoulder would be restrained by her seat belt while the rest of her upper body is being yanked forward by the force of the baby (for as long as it remains in the sling) flying forward. The reason most car seat straps are only rated to 40 lbs. is because beyond that, the force of the child's body could rip the straps from the car seat! Even with a small baby, I have to wonder how a sling would hold up.


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## luv my 2 sweeties (Aug 30, 2003)

Loving-my-babies, I'm sorry this wasn't the conversation you wanted to have. I think it's an interesting discussion, and the last page or two of this thread has gotten into some of it in the way you had in mind. Just for kicks, I decided to go back to the OP and see if I could get some clues as to why the discussion might have taken the turn it did.

Speaking for myself (and it seems others had a similar reaction), it seemed in the OP that you were characterizing carseat use as secondary to comforting one's baby (you bf your ds "countless times" in a moving vehicle). Most of us don't see it as an either/or situation and have very strong feelings about car safety. You are obviously very anti-circ, so it might help to think about what your reaction would be to a post that wanted to explore why so many people got so excercised about circumsision since in other cultures (even ours in some places) it is accepted without question and isn't life threatening. What if the poster said something like, "after all, shouldn't people care more about preventing child abuse and promoting breastfeeding?" I think you would rightly see that as a false choice. I read your OP in a similar way.

In addition, your questions about media campaigns seemed to imply that the importance of car seat use was being somehow exagerated in a manipulative sort of way. (I understand you may not have intended to imply that, but it's what I took away from your post when I first read it.) You asked our thoughts about this and we gave them!







You gotta be prepared when you ask MDC moms to spout off on something! :LOL

Anyway, I don't mean to critize you further. I just thought I'd share why I had the reaction I did to your OP. Maybe it will be helpful to you in some way, maybe not.







I think other pp's have made any points I would have about why some public interest campaigns happen and others don't, so I bore everyone by repeating things that have already been said.


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

I'm not advocating the sling method, but I've often wondered what a crash test would look like in a case like this. OBviously, no shoulder strap across the front of the sling, but still across the adult, between her chest and the baby.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

I was told I could not wear my baby in a sling on an international flight for safety reasons.


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

yea, they all say that, but how could it be less safe than babies in the lap?
it could certainly be less safe if the seatbelt were around mom and baby, but I just can't visualize the safety risk otherwise.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

I guessing, could be wrong, that the baby in the sling would cause horrible injuries to the mother and still be unable to save the baby while if the baby were in arms it would fly free. Horrible thought but it was all I could come up with.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

If your baby was in a sling nursing and you were in an accident the only way there would be ANY safety afforded is if the thread and the fabric are made to withstand a weight of 4500 lbs--and that's for a 10lb child, as the child grows, so does that other number. I think this is something that most have no concept of until they see it, it's one thing to read it and hear it, etc but it seems unimaginable just in writing. I was never very good in physics, I was more of a biology student but it was that one accident I saw that killed dad and baby that cemented it into my head. Mom said over and over, we weren't going fast, I had a good hold of him--but how can any woman be expected to hold onto 4500 lbs!! Sling or no sling. The force something gets thrown at during a collision is just far too massive.

On the original question as to why it became a larger issue than say breast feeding or circ'ing, I think the ultra basic answer to that is that car seats have a more immediate gratification of saving lives. In north america we don't see or hear about children actually dying from formula or from being circ'd. Also, it's something we can make an enforcable law for. A law that has been proven to save lives--so I think that's why the huge focus. To make a law that all babes must be breast fed will never pass for a number of reasons, 1) It is true that not all women can breastfeed and no matter how small the number may be, it would be hard to force women with bf trouble to breastfeed (regardless of how we see it, for some, pain is a perfect reason not to breastfeed) 2) Many women don't breastfeed because of medications that they must be on that can't be can't be passed on and yeah, the drug companies have clout! Now, that said, I have extremely bad rhuematoid arthritis and I was desparately waiting until my pregnancy was over so I could get back on my meds--I was afraid I wouldn't be able to take care of her with the pain I had--anyway, I tried to breastfeed but prior surgery resulted in me not producing so much as a drop of milk. Now I had worked out a plan that would have allowed me to breast feed and be on my meds, but it would have involved supplementation 2 days a week--most just aren't willing to go to that much trouble-KWIM? On circing, again, if we made it law, it would be seen as a huge insult to many religious groups, and while I am one who thinks no religion should support the mutilation of children, there are people who believe very passionately that their child *must* be circ'd--I have no concept of this, cause, well, I'm Scottish, the only thing I'm that passionate about is butter









I think you would find in Canada, the incidence of breastfeeding is MUCH higher and the incidence of circ'ing is much lower. In my small town there isn't even a doctor who will circ your child, if you give birth in the hospital I did, you need to book an appt in Toronto to have your child circ'd. My hospital has videos by the dozen's on breast feeding and almost as many on why NOT to circ. In canada formula samples are not given out (you have to write in to the company and request them) In Canada, while our health care system covers darn near everything, you will have to cough up the money if you want to circ your child. The canadian government has gone all out encouraging breast feeding. As far as I know, all hospitals with OB units have lactation consultants on staff at no charge to the patients. Every piece of literature I got before and just after Molly was born had copious information on why and how to breast feed and how to handle common problems. So it is a cultural thing to an extent and I think the US culture is just more strongly driven by economics.

Another thought on why the huge push to carseats and "back to sleep" these are things we can frighten people into submission on. There are real and well documented statistics on how these things save babies lives. The same level of fear just doesn't exist with say "You must breastfeed or your adult child will be more prone to obesity and your child may have more ear infections" KWIM??? We are (fairly justly so) afraid of having our children die and therefore when that is the threat it carries more weight. Does that make sense??


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## boomingranny (Dec 11, 2003)

too many cars, too much driving, not enough public transportation - what about kids in bikeseats on bikes in a car culture?

I ff so my kid had a bottle...

Cultural relativity is not MDC's strongpoint.


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## *Erin* (Mar 18, 2002)

no time to read the whole thread, but i wanted to chime in and add my .02.
i always jumped in the backseat and let dh drive when dd needed me or needed to bfeed-she's 2.5 now, and i still do it. but. i never ever take her out of the seat. it's easy to bf a carseated baby once you get the hang of it, even if youre small busted, which i totally am. maybe not every mama can physically do it, though, and in that case i'd suggest you stop the car before taking your baby out of the seat.

it IS a big huge deal to have a baby riding unrestrained. most accidents happen in the blink of an eye, and NOBODY knows how they will turn out. you could lose your grip on your child and they could be killed or seriously injured from hitting the inside of the car, flying OUT of the car, crushed between the dash and seats or seats and floor or seats and roof...it's just way way too risky.

the ONLY time i would make an exception would be if dd were seriously hurt or injured and i had to get her to the hospital myself. i would probably hold her and pray alot. i pray that never happens.

car seats being cruel....
i think they're cruel when parents leave their babies/toddlers stuck in them all the time. i think it's cruel to ignore your child's cries after a point-we all know the difference between fussiness that will probably pass and distressed crying. if your child needs you, pull over and do what you need to do.


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## PancakeGoddess (Oct 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
If your baby was in a sling nursing and you were in an accident the only way there would be ANY safety afforded is if the thread and the fabric are made to withstand a weight of 4500 lbs--and that's for a 10lb child, as the child grows, so does that other number.

yea, this is what I thought. Is that at highway speeds? It must be more for higher speeds and less at a slow speed?

If it's possible to make seatbelts that hold a person in an accident, it's got to be possible to make a sling that can hold a baby.


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## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

What a thread.

Carseats are not cruel, sorry, but that is, um, well... stupid. If your baby hates the carseat than what is actually cruel is you taking them somewhere, not the seat itself. I know from where I speak because I have a carseat hating baby. She has hated it since the day she was born and it has caused me to skip many an activity out of the desire not to make her cry. I drove my kids (alone) 1,000 miles in December and it took me 3 full days because we stopped constantly for her to get out and get away from the seat.

I have never taken her out of her seat when she was crying, I would NEVER do that. She will survive crying, I just don't see how that is in any way, ever ever ever justifiable. She is 17 months and rides rear-facing even though she would probably cry less forward facing... again, I don't care, I only care about her safety.

I'm not sure whether the argument that "we survived" in the days before carseats was actually being made or just being used to stir the pot. I certainly hope that wasn't an actual argument.


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## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *benjalo*
yea, this is what I thought. Is that at highway speeds? It must be more for higher speeds and less at a slow speed?

If it's possible to make seatbelts that hold a person in an accident, it's got to be possible to make a sling that can hold a baby.

Even if there was a sling that could hold a baby there would be the chance said baby would be crushed by the adult's body. Even though an adult is restrained there can still be impact with the body of the car.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:

If it's possible to make seatbelts that hold a person in an accident, it's got to be possible to make a sling that can hold a baby.
One of the reasons carseats and seatbelts work is that they are anchored to immovable objects. A sling, on a person, can never be that stable.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
I agree that carseats are SUPER important, but if I had to put that in a scale and compare it to breastfeeding (since THAT is such a choice here) I'd say carseats are less important than breastfeeding, because carseats only save you IF you have an accident. Not breastfeeding is damage one can't repair.

You can be a breastfeeding mom and a mom who uses a carseat. The two are not mutually exclusive. You don't know when you might have an accident. That's why they're called accidents. If your child isn't in a carseat when you have that unanticipated accident, the chance that your child will day is WAY WAY higher. I guess it comes down to whether you're willing to take that risk. Me? Never.

And I would definitely feel less charitable toward a mom who doesn't put her kid in a carseat than a mom who ff. It's the difference between giving you baby the best infant food or adequate infant food versus doing your best to keep your baby safe in the car and not doing anything to keep your baby safe.

Namaste!


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kavita*
I read somewhere that something like 80% of all carseats are incorrectly installed and used. I started wondering if the fact that so many people in this culture seem to treat car seats like they are meant to carry or seat a baby in a grocery store or a restaurant or even dangling the huge carseat with the baby in it along in a mall or street fair or such, results in people sort of forgetting that they are first and foremost safety devices meant for use in the car? Do people just sort of get sloppy about them for this reason, and especially if they are always in/out of the car? Just a musing . . . .

While it seems reasonable that that is part of it, I think an even larger (sadly) part may be an inability to understand the car seat directions.

Car seat manuals, on average, are written at a 10th grade level. That is, unfortunatley, higher than the average reading level in the US. While we have had no problems installing our Britax seats, we had one that my DH (MS), my MIL (a teacher) & I (heck, I'm smart too!) had a really hard time figuring out exactly *what* they meant.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
You can be a breastfeeding mom and a mom who uses a carseat. The two are not mutually exclusive.

I think the point is how people view them.

Statistically, every child who is formula fed has negative consequences (if they could have been bfed).

Not every child who goes w/out a carseat has a negative consequence.

I think there are two main reasons for this dichotomy:

1) The connection between not using a carseat and harm is much more obvious than the connection between formula and harm.
2) With $50 you can make your child carsafe. Bfeeding can be MUCH harder than just throwing money at it.


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

I saw the issue of child restraints on buses came up again. Earlier in the thread I discussed "compartmentalization" which describes the reasons why most school buses do not and don't have to have seat belts.
But I wanted to come back and add that some states have enacted legislation which does mandate the use of safety belts/or child safety seats on them. These are generally smaller buses, much less than the 10,000 pound behemooths we see every day. Regarding the larger buses, in 1999, New York and New Jersey mandated that seat belts be installed in all new buses. It is rumored that you may see similar legislation in your state soon if not already.
NHTSA has conducted crash tests of buses and it covered body joint strength, roll-over protection, pedestrian safety devices, passenger seating and crash protection, emergency exits, as well as testing improved total structural integrity for the bus' frame.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, with time and advanced testing, will come additional or changed laws and we will probably see the advent of safety belts on school buses in the near future. When we know better, we do better...just another example of the advancement in technology and testing.
I did want to note that at present, the most dangerous time for a child on a bus is upon entering and exiting. They are more likely to be hit by another car and not injured in a bus crash sans safety belt.

*BTW for any MDC mama reading who is a CPS tech...NHTSA is working on a school bus specific CPS training coarse.







*

Dallaschildren
CPS tech and mom to 2 sons in seats both in 5 point harnesses


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## dallaschildren (Jun 14, 2003)

Me again...noticed the posts questioning the possible use of a sling while driving......
Unfortunately, slings are not crash tested, they are constructed of materials not strong enough to withstand crash forces, and your babe would be thrown from your body with deadly force, as a result.

Someone mentioned a similar theory earlier, but just in case some of you missed it:

*This is Newton's theory of motion in a nutshell:

Speed X weight = restraining force

So take a car driving at 30 mph X 20 pound child = 600 pounds*

You are driving your Honda at 30 mph, you slam on the brakes to miss a squirrel in the road, and your 20 pound child now weighs 600 pounds. No one can hold onto anything that weighs 600 pounds. So if you are breastfeeding and your child is in your lap when this happens, your child will be thrown around or out of the vehicle as if he weighed 600 pounds.

*Newton's theory: An object in motion continues to remain in motion at the original speed until acted on by an outside force.*

Dallaschildren
CPS tech and mom to 2 sons in seats both in 5 point harnesses


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## wildmonkeys (Oct 4, 2004)

When one of my children was crying and needed to be bf, we would always just pull over as soon as possible. I am comfortable being late - as late as I need to be to keep my kids happy and safe.

BJ
Barney & Ben


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## DaisyRose (Feb 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2*
I think the point is how people view them.

Statistically, every child who is formula fed has negative consequences (if they could have been bfed).

Not every child who goes w/out a carseat has a negative consequence.

I think there are two main reasons for this dichotomy:

1) The connection between not using a carseat and harm is much more obvious than the connection between formula and harm.
2) With $50 you can make your child carsafe. Bfeeding can be MUCH harder than just throwing money at it.


I think this gets at the heart of the matter. People have all kinds of "excuses" for why they can't breastfeed, why they can't so-sleep, why CIO and spanking and daycare is good for their family, why they can't carry their children and blah blah blah ad infinitum.

The solutions to those problems take more than just a chunk of money.

But car seats are easy. Strap the kid in, end of story. Feel fully righteous, even though the parent in question has failed to do just about every other thing (bf, co-sleep, GD, etc) that they might have done to prevent harm coming to their child.

It's easy to focus on car seats because there are all kinds of HORROR gasp HORROR stories.

But lord almighty forbid we should talk about the GASP horror GASP of cribs. And yes, babies DO die in cribs. It's called SIDS. Co-sleeping babies have as much protection from death as babies who are in car seats, but somehow, that is simply a "parent's choice".

Using a car seat is an easy choice, and therefore people jump on the bandwagon and proclaim every person who puts their infant's immediate needs over the slight statistical risk of a crash...what was the word a previous poster used? Oh yeah... stupid.

And that's okay?

Are we allowed to call formula feeders stupid? People who refuse to co-sleep? Can we call them stupid? How about spankers? Or CIOers? All of these people take a significant risk that they will cause their child harm, but, oh, that's just a choice.

It's nonsense. The hyperbole doesn't change the fact that there are LOTS of difficult choices that parents have to make, and taking a hysterical infant out of car seat to breastfeed in the back seat is NO WORSE than feeding formula, or using CIO or spanking or using a crib.

They're all "choices" and if we're going to respect moms who use formula, then we also have to respect moms who refuse to practice ANY KIND of CIO, whether it's in a car or a crib.


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

I don't know if it's been said but, I would rather have my baby hungry or even STARVING, than potentially dead.

Kailey stays in her carseat no matter what her mood or condition. If it is an emergency we pull over- even on highways, we just pull WAY over.

There have been many PRO carseat posts and I just want to say...yeah what THEY said!


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

Please try to keep this thread on topic. If it starts to become a breastfeeding vs. formula feeding (or CIO, spanking, etc.) debate I will have to close it.

Thanks!


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## Potty Diva (Jun 18, 2003)

Quote:

But you know what, I could care less if an adult doesn't buckle up--they're an adult, they're old enough to know the risks and choose whether or not to take the chance, no adult should make that "choice" for a child who can't speak for themselves or make their own educated choice.
Another problem with unbelted persons is that they become projectiles in the event an accident does occur. The unbleted people can be thrown around the car KILLING the persons who were belted in.

In my car, EVERYONE uses a safety belt or carseat or they don't ride. YES, I have FORCED adults who wanted/needed are ride from me to buckle themselves in. I don't give a flip how pi$$ed they get.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DaisyRose*
Using a car seat is an easy choice, and therefore people jump on the bandwagon and proclaim every person who puts their infant's immediate needs over the slight statistical risk of a crash...what was the word a previous poster used? Oh yeah... stupid.

Yes, I do think it's stupid to put your baby in a 2-, 3-, or 4-ton hunk of hurtling metal and not restrain them. The statistical risk of a child dying from being ff is far smaller than the risk of an unrestrained baby who is involved in an accident dying. It doesn't matter whether the risk of an accident is remote. It only matters what happens WHEN THE CRASH OCCURS. Comparing ff in general to carseat use in general is not a valid comparison, because a carseat's job is not to keep a child safe while riding in the car. Its job is to keep the child safe when the child is involved in an accident. You have to compare ff deaths to deaths of children who were not restrained AND were involved in accidents to have a valid comparison. (Ditto for co-sleeping, etc.)

Namaste!


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:

taking a hysterical infant out of car seat to breastfeed in the back seat is NO WORSE than feeding formula, or using CIO or spanking or using a crib.

They're all "choices" and if we're going to respect moms who use formula, then we also have to respect moms who refuse to practice ANY KIND of CIO, whether it's in a car or a crib.
Formula provides adequate nutrition for a child. Being unrestrained in a car does not provide adequate safety for a child. It's not a valid comparison.

If you don't want your child to cry in a carseat, pull over.


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:

I could care less if an adult doesn't buckle up--they're an adult, they're old enough to know the risks and choose whether or not to take the chance
My problem with that argument is that people like Shannon here have to clean up the mess. So it's not just impacting their life.


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## JenniferH (Feb 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cortsmommy*
Well babies don't sit in car seats in limos or in taxis or on buses either. I think the carseat thing is yes a safety precaution and yes it does save lives but we don't all wreck everyday.

I quoted you because I have ridden in a taxi with my child in a car seat. Yeah, it was inconvenient, but I thought it the safest way to travel with a baby. Taxis and limos wreck too.

ETA: I have seen *some* taxis with something to this effect written on the side: "All passengers must be in seatbelts or age appropriate safety restraints."


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## DaisyRose (Feb 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
Yes, I do think it's stupid to put your baby in a 2-, 3-, or 4-ton hunk of hurtling metal and not restrain them.

And I think it's stupid to put a baby in a crib where they can DIE due to lack of human contact. In general, I am not allowed to USE the word stupid to describe any of the practices I feel are, well STUPID.

So why is it okay for you to call my very well thought out (I DO NOT CIO UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE) practice STUPID just because you don't happen to agree. I think I know how to assess a risk, and I am happy with my choice.

As the original poster suggested, has it occurred to you that you are in the grips of an extreme paranoia engineered by government agencies who could care less if your baby suffocates in a crib, or drops dead of a heart attack at 45 because you decided to formula feed and contribute to obesity and all kinds of other health problems?

If I called any of those things STUPID, the thread would be deleted.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DaisyRose*

As the original poster suggested, has it occurred to you that you are in the grips of an extreme paranoia engineered by government agencies who could care less if your baby suffocates in a crib, or drops dead of a heart attack at 45 because you decided to formula feed and contribute to obesity and all kinds of other health problems?


I'd rather be in the grips of paranoia that keeps my child safe than in the grips of delusion that denies the chance of death.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Ok, but daisy rose, you are comparning apples to anvils. First off, the thread isn't about whether or not you're stupid if you put your kid in a crib, secondly, I think the grand majority of people here co-sleep--so who exactly are you preaching to??
I have the distinct feeling your purpose is to stir the pot here so I'm going into this with a helmet on.
The corelations your speakin of are NOT accurate. Even the MOST AP research simply doesn't back up the stuff you're saying. However, ALL research, AP, Mainstream or Martian backs up the absolute risks of having a child unrestrained in a moving automobile.
I responded to 911 calls for a number of years. I saw a total of 17 dead children. 14 of them were in car accidents, 1 was in a fire (during the day, so please don't tell me co-sleeping would have saved her life) 1 was kicked in the head by a horse and one believe it or not died because her mother didn't know she was slowly poisoning her because she was *breastfeeding* her while on medication--actually, there was an inquest, she did know, the pharacist told her and so did her doctor-she thought she knew better. I've never responded to baby who died in a crib either by SIDs or especially who died because of lack of human contact.
Here's what I see in the post you just left--it's ok to throw paranoia at people who don't co-sleep or breast feed--because telling me my baby will die if I put him in a crib--or telling me (a ff btw--all by necessity) that my baby will surely die because of that bottle I stick in her mouth--that's all fine and good but those preachy car seat freaks who have scraped little dead babies off windshields, roads and dashboards, those peoplle are just being ridiculous and preachy.
As I asked someone else, and if you feel as strongly about all this as you are saying here and if you're not just trying to stir the pot--How will you feel if you remove your child (without bothering to pull over--you see my point is you don't have to CIO in a carseat--just pull over) How will you feel if because you couldn't stand to hear her cry, you never again hear her cry-because she's dead?
How will you feel while picking out the tiny coffin--I ask this honestly--will it be ok because at least you never let that child CIO??

These are simple questions and I would think if you feel strongly about what you're saying you should have no trouble answering.

Why do I preach, because still now, so many years later I can see in my mind the face of every baby I ever saw dead. I can see the look of pain and anguish on their parents face and worse, I don't do what I did anymore, because the last baby I saw dead almost landed me with an assault charge because I punched the mother, who cared enough about her life to be wearing a seatbelt--it's unfortunate she didn't care enough about her sons life. Rescue workers quit left, right and centre over this, that's how common it is. You don't even have to get in an accident, you just have to break really hard one time for that baby to be pulled out of your arms and die when he meets whatevery solid object it is that he comes in contact with.


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## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

I'm about as militant a breastfeeder and co-sleeper as one can be but I am REALLY failing to understand the comparison here. Formula feeding is NOTHING like not using a carseat, it's not a workable analogy. Crib use is not proven to be unsafe like unrestrained children are. It's ludicrous to compare them.

I don't believe there is some kind of government conspiracy in action, designed to keep our babies safe in moving vehicles. I don't believe there is conspiracy at play about crib use, either. Or bike helmets, or life preservers, etc...


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## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

Cross posted with Shannon... who I now think I may be in love with.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *DaisyRose*
I think this gets at the heart of the matter. People have all kinds of "excuses" for why they can't breastfeed, why they can't so-sleep, why CIO and spanking and daycare is good for their family, why they can't carry their children and blah blah blah ad infinitum.

The solutions to those problems take more than just a chunk of money.

But car seats are easy. Strap the kid in, end of story. Feel fully righteous, even though the parent in question has failed to do just about every other thing (bf, co-sleep, GD, etc) that they might have done to prevent harm coming to their child.

It's easy to focus on car seats because there are all kinds of HORROR gasp HORROR stories.

But lord almighty forbid we should talk about the GASP horror GASP of cribs. And yes, babies DO die in cribs. It's called SIDS. Co-sleeping babies have as much protection from death as babies who are in car seats, but somehow, that is simply a "parent's choice".

Using a car seat is an easy choice, and therefore people jump on the bandwagon and proclaim every person who puts their infant's immediate needs over the slight statistical risk of a crash...what was the word a previous poster used? Oh yeah... stupid.

And that's okay?

Are we allowed to call formula feeders stupid? People who refuse to co-sleep? Can we call them stupid? How about spankers? Or CIOers? All of these people take a significant risk that they will cause their child harm, but, oh, that's just a choice.

It's nonsense. The hyperbole doesn't change the fact that there are LOTS of difficult choices that parents have to make, and taking a hysterical infant out of car seat to breastfeed in the back seat is NO WORSE than feeding formula, or using CIO or spanking or using a crib.

They're all "choices" and if we're going to respect moms who use formula, then we also have to respect moms who refuse to practice ANY KIND of CIO, whether it's in a car or a crib.

EXACTLY!!!

EXACTLY!!!

EXACTLY!!!!

I sooo love you right now!!! lol. That's my point. My point is that I have observed, as an "outsider" coming into this country, that people here, if they agree on calling someone stupid (people that don't use carseats) then that's ok, but when you call them stupid for soemthing that THEY do, they get all "oh, don't judge me, please"









I gotta tell ya, I don't care what people say, I'm not letting my child cry ANYWHERE. don't people get that HE DOESN'T UNDERSTAND what a carseat is?? He feels ignored and abandoned ANYWHERE he is that his cries are not answered or are ignored. what makes moms here think "oh, ok, the carseat is ok for a crying place but not the crib". I'm not saying you should take your kid out of the carseat. My child is not left to cry. Either I stop the car or nurse him in the back, that's my business and no one else's but CIO doesn't just happen at night and in cribs. I find that so hypocritical.


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## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

Well, OK, but then it's not really the carseat you have an issue with, is it? I made this point earlier: The carseat is not cruel, taking them somewhere in it is what is "cruel."


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

also, another point that daisy made above. why do you feel that you can group together and call this other group of people stupid (the ones that don't use carseats all the time and that feel they perhaps, wouldn't let their kids to starve in the carseat like some of you have said you would do) why is it that we allow that, when it is not allowed to say that circumcisers are stupid, for example? or ff'ing by choice moms, or CIO'ers?


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:

Either I stop the car or nurse him in the back, that's my business and no one else's.
It is the business of the EMT's who have to clean up the accident, the medical professionals who have to try and save the baby's life and are haunted by nightmares if they don't.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momtwice*
It is the business of the EMT's who have to clean up the accident, the medical professionals who have to try and save the baby's life and are haunted by nightmares if they don't.

I don't think this is fair. My children will share classrooms with circumcised, CIO, formula fed babies and will have to witness their emotional traumas. We also share a society with children that have been abused, and yes we're going to have to "clean up" for them too. does that give me the right to call up their moms and tell them to stop being stupid and start doing things MY way? no.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Ok, Carmen, you said a ways back that you wanted to know the reasons that car seat safety has been made such a big deal of. You said you weren't asking if people believe they should be able to take a child out of the seat when it's crying. So a bunch of us did go into the reasons we think car seat use is a bigger deal in our culture than say breast feeding or circing--many of answered with detailed well thought out answers. I'm finding it odd that in light of your defensive post a while back telling us what you "really wanted to know" that the only responses you "agree" with are those people who say "damn right, I risk my childs life!! No questions!!" So you're saying in one post what you want from people and when people respond to you with the answers to what "your actual question" is you ignore them but come on out to pat the back of every respondant who says they have no trouble pulling their child out of a car seat in a moving hunk of metal. This last poster didn't even address your actual question--at least not anymore than the rest of us did when we answered your question with opinions that didn't agree with yours--so let me know here what it is you want, cause I'm getting the feeling that waht you in fact want is a list of people who will pat your back and say, "yeah, it's ok to pull the kid out of his car seat--I do it too"

I do find it funny though that not one of our people who thinks it's cruel not to leave a child safely buckled in has answered my questions on how you would feel if you never again hear that child cry--because of your "choice"

You know, my neighbors child was screaming blue murder yesterday because her father wouldn't let her crawl into the paddock with the horses--was it cruel of him to let her cry or if he was a good father would he have let her crawl into a paddock with a bunch of strange horses???


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
Ok, Carmen, you said a ways back that you wanted to know the reasons that car seat safety has been made such a big deal of. You said you weren't asking if people believe they should be able to take a child out of the seat when it's crying. So a bunch of us did go into the reasons we think car seat use is a bigger deal in our culture than say breast feeding or circing--many of answered with detailed well thought out answers. I'm finding it odd that in light of your defensive post a while back telling us what you "really wanted to know" that the only responses you "agree" with are those people who say "damn right, I risk my childs life!! No questions!!" So you're saying in one post what you want from people and when people respond to you with the answers to what "your actual question" is you ignore them but come on out to pat the back of every respondant who says they have no trouble pulling their child out of a car seat in a moving hunk of metal. This last poster didn't even address your actual question--at least not anymore than the rest of us did when we answered your question with opinions that didn't agree with yours--so let me know here what it is you want, cause I'm getting the feeling that waht you in fact want is a list of people who will pat your back and say, "yeah, it's ok to pull the kid out of his car seat--I do it too"

I do find it funny though that not one of our people who thinks it's cruel not to leave a child safely buckled in has answered my questions on how you would feel if you never again hear that child cry--because of your "choice"

You know, my neighbors child was screaming blue murder yesterday because her father wouldn't let her crawl into the paddock with the horses--was it cruel of him to let her cry or if he was a good father would he have let her crawl into a paddock with a bunch of strange horses???

No, actually I did start this thread thinking of the reasons why carseats are so important. But after 8 pages of "my niece was driving without a carseat and.." I feel I should be able to react to these comments.

ETA- I'm on YOUR side, I believe that carseats are lifesaving, I really do. What I don't get is how as a society we can be so hypocritical and cut off penises so "he will look like daddy" and then call a person nursing her baby in the back seat a child abuser. It's just twisted!!!!


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
I don't think this is fair. My children will share classrooms with circumcised, CIO, formula fed babies and will have to witness their emotional traumas. We also share a society with children that have been abused, and yes we're going to have to "clean up" for them too. does that give me the right to call up their moms and tell them to stop being stupid and start doing things MY way? no.


Who called you up??? Are your children staring at the penis's of the other children in his/her class?? Is it bad that you may have to clean up the mess of a child who survived child abuse, but it's no big deal that I may have to clean up the mess when you kill repeatedly risk your child's life??? Or is ok because at least your form of child abuse has a better chance of actually killing the child--after all, then after the initial PITA it's all over--God knows that the people who deal with it every freaking day don't have nightmares, don't require councelling.
There is a very basic difference--do police officers have the right to tell you to keep your child in a car seat--damn right they do--it's the law, that simple, they also have a right to tell you can't rob banks or shoot people in the head, if you feel so strongly that children who are circ'd are abused messes that society will have to clean up after for the rest of their life, lobby to change the law, but frankly, my dh is circ'd, after reading up on it we wouldn't have done it if Molly was a boy, but my dh is an upstanding member of society who contributes and is not a burden on our community--and he never has been. I was formula fed, I have also never been a burden on my community or anyone elses, in fact I've done more hard work as a volunteer than most people do. I've saved lives, many of them, I don't do it anymore because the people who say things like "I can take my kid out of a car seat and risk his life because afterall, uncle sam says its still ok to feed formula and circ--when he makes those things illegal, I'll respect the laws."

You have NO IDEA what so-ever what is done to the people who come to your aid. It changes our lives every single day. Usually not for the better. We burn out and we quit. Because the anger eats away at us that people don't learn this simple lesson until after their child is *DEAD!!!!* not obese, not missing his foreskin, not insecure because his parents didn't respond quickly enough to his needs but DEAD--never to be hugged, fed, touched, or cried with again.
If you can honestly compare the damage of circing and not breast feeding with the damage of a dead child that would be not only alive but healthy and happy had his parents just taken the time to pull over to a safe spot. No your child doesn't know what a car seat is--but you can talk to him while you locate a safe spot to pull over--if you're sitting on the toilet and baby starts to cry do you immediately jump up and just piss all over the floor to get to your child who is crying in a safe place or do you finish peeing and call to him from the bathroom to tell him he's ok and you'll be with him in a matter of minutes.

Here's what I hope for you, I sincerely hope with all my heart that the day you need someone to help your child, for whatever reason, I hope that all the good ones aren't burnt out and someone is available to help you, cause for me and many of my friends, we're too busy in councelling to help another parent who could have prevented a tradgedy but they were too flipping busy or lazy to pull off the road to a safe place.

Nobody here is saying to leave your child to cry, everyone is giving extremely feasable options to leaving your child to cry that are for the most part safe.

Sorry, you just have no idea what you are comparing because you've never seen it, I pray you never have to.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

the issue of infant carseats in our country

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(without it getting heated, please, I really have questions and I'd like to talk about them)

This is the thing.. I was talking to a friend the other day, she is from South America (as most of you know, me too) and she has a 2 month old baby. We were at a christening together for a friend's baby (we have that friend in common) and she was asking me all these questions about breastfeeding, cloth diapering, cosleeping, etc.. and I felt that she found comfort in a lot of the things that I told her. She even told my husband and her husband (we shared a table) that I was such a "perfect mom" (yes, I said please, I feel like the worst mom in the world most days lost in my unshowered mind, sleepless body and tons of laundry) SOOOO.. I don't know how she started talking about carseats and how she doesn't ler her baby cry in the carseat while she is in the car but she also doesn't stop the car when baby is hungry. She will sit in the back of her SUV and nurse her baby, while her dh drives. I said...

"ME TOO". (yes, this is the part where your blood pressure will rise, right?)
well, I don't do this now, because my son no longer needs to nurse every hour. But dh and I did this many, many times when ds was under a year. countless times. never in the front seat, always in the back. but we did it. I admit it. so... we started talking about how the only people that WE know that do this, are not from here (from the US) and that it's like a dirty little secret because if you DARE tell anyone here they will automatically think that you're a bad, irresponsible mother.

This is from your initial post, just pages ago you swore that you never removed your child from the seat in moving vehicle. Actually you chastised someone who made a comment about it, saying you didn't know where she got that from--I'm guessing she got it from your initial post.
So what is it--are you on my side?? Do you think it's ok to take a child out of his car seat while your husband drives or don't you??


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

I have taken my son out of his carseat BUT I don't think it is ok. I know the risks I am taking, so I AM on your side. I do agree with there being a rule, a law, to protect our children. I don't feel as strongly as you do, because I wasn't brainwashed by a campaign, but that's perfectly ok!

and responding to your comment of your dh and yourself being fine after being circ'ed or ff'ed.. well.. I never had a carseat and I'm fine too. Not everyone that doesn't use a carseat dies, you know??

Again, I am responding to your comments are trying to show you that, like with everything else, there is another side to it.


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## Carolinamidwife (Dec 18, 2001)

Quote:

why is it that we allow that, when it is not allowed to say that circumcisers are stupid, for example? or ff'ing by choice moms, or CIO'ers?
I'm sorry but for one thing people here do call circers names, mutilators, etc... and for another thing HOW is it the same? Can someone please explain to me how formula feeding is the same as risking your child's life? I think we all agree it's not optimal but as Chickabiddy pointed out it is legitimate nutrition. Formula does not risk your child's life, no matter how much we all love breastmilk. Riding unrestrained DOES. CIO might be sad but it is not deadly. You keep making comparisons that don't work.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

I wanted to explain my position further...

basically what I meant above is that I'm not proud of taking my son out of the carseat and I don't encourage that!! (other than that's illegal ofcourse, it's risky) but my point is that I can't stand people that have these superior ideas of what is right and wrong, and preach about it in groups like they know best, without realizing that some things they do, that they think it's right, in some parts of the world is completely twisted.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sheena*
I'm sorry but for one thing people here do call circers names, mutilators, etc... and for another thing HOW is it the same? Can someone please explain to me how formula feeding is the same as risking your child's life? I think we all agree it's not optimal but as Chickabiddy pointed out it is legitimate nutrition. Formula does not risk your child's life, no matter how much we all love breastmilk. Riding unrestrained DOES. CIO might be sad but it is not deadly. You keep making comparisons that don't work.

well, according to the WHO 1 *MILLION* children die every year because of not being breastfed. how is that not risking a child's life?? Just because it doesn't kill you in 5 second, it doesn't mean it won't kill you in 20 years. AND Just because it is socially acceptable here it does NOT mean it is not life-threatening. Open your eyes!!! luchemia, ADD, and all the illnesses rates are going up? gee, I wonder why!


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
I wanted to explain my position further...

basically what I meant above is that I'm not proud of taking my son out of the carseat and I don't encourage that!! (other than that's illegal ofcourse, it's risky) but my point is that I can't stand people that have these superior ideas of what is right and wrong, and preach about it in groups like they know best, without realizing that some things they do, that they think it's right, in some parts of the world is completely twisted.


So you mean kind of like you are preaching in this group about circing when in some parts of the world the perspective is completely different???


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *shannon0218*
So you mean kind of like you are preaching in this group about circing when in some parts of the world the perspective is completely different???

that couldn't be true, because the US is the ONLY country that does RIC.. so you're all alone there..

It's more like here when you hear that circumcision is so necessary and in the rest of the world people are freaked out when they hear about it. At least I was!! and yet, female genital mutilation is illegal here!! the HYPOCRECY is what I am discussing here.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

ok, I gotta go out now, bbl, but if anyone's interested we can go back on topic- discussing this "are carseats good or bad? thing got a bit old-


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

NO, not everone who removes their child from a car seat causes their death--but I have yet to hear of a child that dies shortly after a circ. And even if you can find me one--it isn't in anywhere even remotely close to the numbers of children who die while unrestrained in a moving vehicle.

As far as illness rates rising, this is what I was getting at when I said you only respond to the people who say it's fine to remove a crying child from his carseat--we already went over this, the reason for the "brainwashing" campain is that the effects of travelling with a child unrestrained are immediately visible and repeatable. Its also something that can actually be enforced.

And for your information, I was not brainwashed by any campain--I was brainwashed the day I had to put sheets over the faces of a young father and his precious baby who were in at best a "fender bender" because those parents thought that mom could hold onto that baby should something happen. I was also brainwashed the day I had to hose an 18 mos little girl named Kelly's grey matter off the pavement, I was brainwashed again when I had to send my dog to locate a child who flew through the windshield into a pile of a brush because we were so afraid one of us would step on him killing him if he wasn't dead already--he was dead, and my dog didn't eat for a week, so you see, my brainwashing comes from actually seeing the effects, if I saw the effects of children dying horrible, traumatic deaths from formula feeding (BTW-the stats you are quoting apply primarily to people who do not properly mix formula-use less formula to make it last, do not use clean water, etc) I may feel as passionately about that as I do about children in car seats--but no government brainwashed me--I saw it, up close and personal, I held and rocked my depressed dog and fest horribly guilty for putting him through that--then I felt mad because neither one of us should have had to go through it.


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## shannon0218 (Oct 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
that couldn't be true, because the US is the ONLY country that does RIC.. so you're all alone there..

It's more like here when you hear that circumcision is so necessary and in the rest of the world people are freaked out when they hear about it. At least I was!! and yet, female genital mutilation is illegal here!! the HYPOCRECY is what I am discussing here.

Excuse me, but circumcision is most certainly done in other countries--it is a religous requirement for jews and at least one other religous group. Where do you get this stuff from???
Also, while our circ rates are nowhere near as high as the states--we circ in Canada too--and last I checked, we were a country.


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
also, another point that daisy made above. why do you feel that you can group together and call this other group of people stupid (the ones that don't use carseats all the time and that feel they perhaps, wouldn't let their kids to starve in the carseat like some of you have said you would do) why is it that we allow that, when it is not allowed to say that circumcisers are stupid, for example? or ff'ing by choice moms, or CIO'ers?

I, for one, did not call people who don't put their kids in carseats stupid. I said that it's stupid not to put your kid in a car seat. Very smart people can do very stupid things. And for what it's worth, I wouldn't hesitate to say that it's stupid not to bf your baby because you fear saggy boobs.

Namaste!


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## dharmamama (Sep 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *loving-my-babies*
that couldn't be true, because the US is the ONLY country that does RIC.. so you're all alone there..

I don't know what RIC is, but I'm assuming it's circumcision, and I'm also assuming that Israel and all the Muslim countries would object to your assertion that they basically don't exist.

Namaste!


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dharmamama*
I don't know what RIC is, but I'm assuming it's circumcision, and I'm also assuming that Israel and all the Muslim countries would object to your assertion that they basically don't exist.

Actually, they don't practice RIC.

They have a religous ceremony that involves circumcision.

There is a difference, but I really think this is off topic.


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## mommytolittlelilly (Jul 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *USAmma*
And so what if you unbuckle yourself to nurse your strapped-in baby? If you have an accident your unrestrained body going 45 mph can crush your baby. If your baby survives the accident, will you? Do you want your baby to grow up without a mommy?


I've never unstrapped L from the carseat, but have occasionally nursed her while unbuckling my seatbelt. I hadn't really thought of the above scenario, and I agree that this sounds like good reasoning to not unbuckle myself! Most of the time, though, we either stop for milk or we both of us just have to endure being buckled in. And then, if I can manage it, it's the "mommy show" with songs and games.

For me it's much more important for us to be as safe as possible in the car (which I think is a very dangerous place to be anyway) than it is to delay milk and the comfort associated with getting milk.


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