# Feeling traumatized by "Healthy Sleep Habits"! (VENT)



## Dido (Jan 7, 2006)

Anyone out there looked at "Healthy Sleep Habits, Healthy Child" by Marc Weissbluth? It is SOOOO scary. I took it out of the library along with Sears' The Baby Sleep Book. I thought it would be a mainstream read but just from a quick inspection didn't realize it was CIO oriented. I was ready to read something mainstream about making naps more routine, since 7.5 month old DD is having increasingly erratic and short naps and her bedtimes are getting really screwed up. BIG MISTAKE! It is turning into a train-wreck read - I keep going in horrified fascination. The only thing I can say is that unlike Babywise he reserves his CIO advice for babies over 4 months.

Here are some gems I had to share:

There is no limit to the amount of time you should let your baby cry at night (that's why I say worse than Ferber, at least he sets time limits!) For naps they can cry an hour. At night how ever many hours of crying it takes is fine.

Vomits from extended crying are nothing to worry about - just clean them up and leave again.

Babies who wake up in the night are not hungry, they just want more playtime so you shouldn't indulge them.

Nursing moms should get into a routine of feeding their babies 4-5 times per 24 hours. Other "snacking and sipping" is not necessary because baby is not really hungry.

Sleeping in motion is bad so if baby falls asleep in stroller or car seat wake them up so that they do not mess up their nap schedule. (he doesn't mention slings because he obviously has never heard of them.)

And lots of horrible, disturbing stories ostensibly from parents talking about what a miracle wonderful Dr. Weissbluth is, who fixed their child so he/she ONLY cries for 30 minutes before bed for a few nights and then MAGICALLY started going right to sleep, etc.

I could go on but you get the idea. You know what I am noticing about these mainstream books? They are getting released in "revised" and "updated" versions in which the family bed or breastfeeding will be mentioned in one or two paragraphs. But the entire book is still geared toward the sleeping alone, formula feeding child. So Weissbluth will say, for example, family beds are OK. But then the whole rest of the book will assume the baby is sleeping alone behind a closed door. This is why the Sears book was like a breath of fresh air, even though I don't always love Dr. Sears he at least is tailoring his advice for MY baby's lifestyle.

What I hate is that I will read parts of a book like this and despite the evidence that the author is full of it, I will still get worried. Weissbluth lays it on so thick that babies need 12 hours of sleep a night and multiple naps of over an hour (less than an hour are "worthless") and if they don't get it they will be unhealthy and BRAIN-DAMAGED that I found myself worrying. He feels if babies get less sleep than he prescribes then the parents are ruining their babies' health. I feel like I am doing everything I can to help DD sleep and maybe she just needs a little less than other babies.

I guess this is half-vent, half-need for reassurance! Oh, and shall I put in a warning insert before returning it to the library?


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## henhao (Dec 17, 2004)

I read that book and, for the most part, didn't like it. I took what I found useful and left the rest. I am with you on how those books incite worry though!

What I found useful was knowing how babies start with three naps, then go to two and then go to one. Weissbluth was right about the general times they take naps and that helped me. In the edition I offered, he gave advice for cry and no-cry. If it's possible to overlook his judgmental attitude -- he makes snipes at Dr. Sears and Pantley (not by name) -- then there is **some** good info in that book. I don't have respect for him or for anyone who has to put down others to *try* and make himself look good.

What I found after watching a friend with her CIO'd baby is that the baby seemed happy enough. However, the odd thing is that no matter what you can't force a baby to sleep. Her baby was up during one "nap" and he played by himself in the crib, so he wasn't getting the requisite nap and was tired later. It's like he'd learned to play by himself in the crib and to wait without crying until someone came to get him. My friend checked on her baby a lot to see if he was crying and he never was. It also seems to me that a lot of people I know who say they use CIO actually do go to the baby when the baby cries.

I'm rambling. Sorry! I'm going to use the Dr. Jay Gordon method to get the girl to sleep.

Our nighttime sleep has been REALLY bad. I'm also getting a crib as cosleeping is bad for me; the baby has been beating me up!


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## adoremybabe (Jun 8, 2006)

A friend of mine has been reccomending the bool to me. I am glad that I have followed my gut instinct and haven't gotten it.


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## Tamee (Jul 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *adoremybabe*
A friend of mine has been reccomending the bool to me. I am glad that I have followed my gut instinct and haven't gotten it.

what's the bool?


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## mezzaluna (Jun 8, 2004)

bool = typo for book


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## rmzbm (Jul 8, 2005)




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## Tamee (Jul 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mezzaluna*
bool = typo for book

ha silly me...


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## sdmoose (Feb 1, 2006)

I understand!!! I was totally traumatized by "The Baby Whisperer" book..."must foster independence", "self-soothe at 2 months" crap. Ugh. I actually got Weissbluth book out of the library on recommendation. I do like his discussion about natural patterns of naps in babies from newborn to 1. and the biological hormone changes in babies over time in relation to sleep BUT--this is because I see my son falling loosly into this nap pattern he describes and I'm a biologist!!! I haven't reached the part about nighttime---and after your post I think I might not read it. Thanks for the heads up! And go read "No cry sleep solution" to make you feel better!!!


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## sweedma (Jul 6, 2006)

I SO agree. I had visions of ripping the book through the spine into tiny pieces, but I'm a librarian and couldn't bring myself to do it... To be fair, I did learn some useful tips about spotting my baby's tired signs and learning to plan ahead for his naps. But the CIO stuff really puzzles me. Part of my frustration is that everyone seems to recommend this book and think that it's normal and even helpful to let babies cry for--literally--hours.

When my 2-year-old niece hears my baby cry, she offers a pacifier and strokes his head and tells him everything is going to be okay. And I, as a responsible adult, am supposed to ignore him?


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrklynMama*
Weissbluth lays it on so thick that babies need 12 hours of sleep a night and multiple naps of over an hour (less than an hour are "worthless") and if they don't get it they will be unhealthy and BRAIN-DAMAGED that I found myself worrying.

Ha! My brilliant, healthy daughter never slept 12 hours at night until she became a teenager. She never slept more than slept 9 or 10 hours at night from the time she was a newborn until age 13 (she did nap some, though).

Quote:


Originally Posted by *henhao*
Our nighttime sleep has been REALLY bad. I'm also getting a crib as cosleeping is bad for me; the baby has been beating me up!









Is your bed big enough? Or have you thought of trying a sidecar arrangement...

dar


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## Lazyhead (Mar 27, 2006)

I have found that all sleep advice books are BS. Yes, even the much-beloved NCSS. All those books got me worked up into a frenzy about how much sleep my child should get, where she should get it, how much time between sleeping, when she should go to bed, etc.







: Sleep has been the #1 issue in our house since my dd was born (she's 2.5) and recently it's been great because I finally just let it go. Honestly I wish I would have just not read a single thing about sleep and gone with the flow from day 1. Would have saved everyone a heap of stress.

FWIW, ITA that Weisbluth is a sleep nazi. That's what we commonly refer to him as in our house.


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## sparkprincess (Sep 10, 2004)

I hated that book also. It's starts out pretty innocently. It gives you the option of nursing your baby down/back to sleep, but after a while (6-9 months?) it tells you to just let them cio.

Like a pp mentioned, I did find a few things helpful, but over all I think it did more damage than good and I would never, ever recommend it to anyone!!


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## EvansMomma (Mar 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tree Hugger*
I have found that all sleep advice books are BS. Yes, even the much-beloved NCSS. All those books got me worked up into a frenzy about how much sleep my child should get, where she should get it, how much time between sleeping, when she should go to bed, etc.







: Sleep has been the #1 issue in our house since my dd was born (she's 2.5) and recently it's been great because I finally just let it go. Honestly I wish I would have just not read a single thing about sleep and gone with the flow from day 1. Would have saved everyone a heap of stress.

FWIW, ITA that Weisbluth is a sleep nazi. That's what we commonly refer to him as in our house.









Couldn't agree more. I recently went into a sleep-book-reading frenzy, and even read NCSS and The Baby Sleep Book by Sears. While I found it nice that they were positive about my parenting style, it turned me into a clock-watching, nap-logging, routine-making FREAK! I finally told my husband that I think it was a mistake to read those books. They are making me crazy. So I just stopped and told myself that "he will sleep when he needs, for as long as he needs and it is my job as his Mama to help him out when I can and trust in his own instincts as well as my own". It's become my new mantra more or less.


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## Sijae (May 5, 2006)

Ok, I admit it... None of my kids ever had scheduled naps, they just fell asleep when they were tired and woke up when they woke up.







They also didn't have bedtimes till they were 3-4 years old. I'm surprised they can function!


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## Tamee (Jul 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sijae*
Ok, I admit it... None of my kids ever had scheduled naps, they just fell asleep when they were tired and woke up when they woke up.







They also didn't have bedtimes till they were 3-4 years old. I'm surprised they can function!









does anyone really need a bedtime, anyway? I mean, I don't have a certain strict time that I make myself go to bed, why should I make my daughter have one? and from her point of view, why should she listen when I tell her to go to bed, if I don't do the same myself? I don't think we'll have bedtimes. just sleep when you sleep. i think that may definitely help with bedtime tantrums, like I used to do.


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## 3happygirls (Feb 4, 2006)

I followed to book to the letter with my older two (twin girls), and found it helpful on several issues.







: I also found it surprisingly on the nose, as far as their NEED for sleep. They were "textbook" (as far as that book is concerned) cases for their need for sleep, wanting to put down, not rocked to sleep, and we NEVER, EVER had any crying episodes lasting more than 15 min. (I can't remember ONE that lasted that long, but they are almost 4) and NEVER, EVER, EVER throwing up or would I ever allow that to happen without consoling them or letting it get to that point!! That is Anti-parenting, period. I was dubbed the NAP NAZI in my family. HOWEVER, I am NOW wishing that I had taken the time to rock, hold, snuggle, nuzzle to sleep with them and we do that PLENTY NOW!! I'm talking DH into a King size bed so that they can be in our bed when they choose (sometimes, they do). I have an 8-mo. old nursling that is in our bed part of the night. I got A LOT more sleep with my twins than I do with our little one!!







HA!! But we have a lot more snuggles. I like the book for the biological explanations for sleep, "routine" (not schedule) and how it showed me to recognize the signs for tiredness, because I had no idea as a new mom. I wish I hadn't have taken it quite so seriously. Take the good with the bad, though.

One question (I'm new to this)....I know a lot of you nap with your dc, too. But some don't? How do you work that? The child wants to sleep with you at night, but will nap on their own? Mine does, currently. I'm just wondering how or why that works? She needs me much more at night than during the day? Is this possible?


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## BelovedK (Jun 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3happygirls*
we NEVER, EVER had any crying episodes lasting more than 15 min. (I can't remember ONE that lasted that long, but they are almost 4)

One question (I'm new to this)....I know a lot of you nap with your dc, too. But some don't? How do you work that? The child wants to sleep with you at night, but will nap on their own? Mine does, currently. I'm just wondering how or why that works? She needs me much more at night than during the day? Is this possible?


IMO, there is no need for them to cry at all. Even 5 minutes is a long time for a little baby. I'm glad you chose a different route with your next one. They are only babies for a short time, glad you are enjoying that cuddle time









Alot of times, they go to sleep on their own during the day because they are used to being with mama as she works and is already used to falling asleep without nursing. It is easy to just lay them down, and depending on the child, they will stay asleep. At night it is different, they get used to that before sleep nurse session and are aware that it is going to be a longer time to sleep, it is the ending of the day...that can be scary for the child. Of course all children are different...I'm just describing my own cosleeping journey.


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## Tamee (Jul 6, 2006)

my two month old will nap without me. I think she just feels comfortable. one time I wrapped her up and set her down on my bed to get dressed, came back, and she was asleep and stayed asleep for a few hours. most of the time she naps while nursing or being carried in one of my babywearing carriers, but there have been times when she just falls asleep without me. if she's tired, she sleeps.


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## Tamee (Jul 6, 2006)

:doublepost:


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## Tangelo (Jun 9, 2005)

This book was recommended to us by a couple of different people, so my husband ordered it, not really knowing what to expect. We didn't find it helpful at all. What I especially dislike is the author's condescending and alarmist tone. He basically implies that if you don't follow his method, your child will end up with lifelong sleep problems and become addicted to sleeping pills.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *BrklynMama*
What I hate is that I will read parts of a book like this and despite the evidence that the author is full of it, I will still get worried. Weissbluth lays it on so thick that babies need 12 hours of sleep a night and multiple naps of over an hour (less than an hour are "worthless") and if they don't get it they will be unhealthy and BRAIN-DAMAGED that I found myself worrying. He feels if babies get less sleep than he prescribes then the parents are ruining their babies' health. I feel like I am doing everything I can to help DD sleep and maybe she just needs a little less than other babies.

DS1 slept about 9 hours a night, from the time I brought him home from the hospital. He took 10 minute "cat naps" several times a day, but _never_ napped for a long period of time.

He's missed about three days of school for illness in eight years. He cycles, swims, hikes, walks, and plays actively. He's a very talented artist, has a great ear for music, and juggles (balls, devilsticks and diabolo). He "graduated" from grade seven last week, and appeared before his whole school in a tux, tophat, and gentleman's cane...poised, happy and thoroughly enjoying himself. He's in the school district's Gifted program.

So....ignore the Ja**a$$ who wrote that book. I did _everything_ wrong, according to him, yet I have a healthy, athletic, social, happy, intelligent son.

(DD is only three, but she's also very, very smart, active and incredibly self-confident. She takes one nap a day, "snacked and sipped" about 50 times a day for over a year...wouldn't nurse "properly"...and slept about 8-10 hours a night as a baby.)

I have amazing kids, and I'm not posting this to brag - I'm posting this to reassure you that you're right and the bozo who wrote the book is wrong.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *3happygirls*
One question (I'm new to this)....I know a lot of you nap with your dc, too. But some don't? How do you work that? The child wants to sleep with you at night, but will nap on their own? Mine does, currently. I'm just wondering how or why that works? She needs me much more at night than during the day? Is this possible?

DS2 falls asleep at the breast for his nap. I then transfer him to the couch. He usually stays asleep. If he doesn't, I just pick him back up (been a lot of that for the last two weeks, as he hasn't been feeling very well).

At night, he nurses to sleep. I keep him in the bed for my sake as much as his. I'm sure I could move him to a crib or a playpen, and he's stay asleep. But, eventually, he'd wake up and want to nurse...and I'd rather have him right there, so he can do so. We'll probably start to transition him out of the bed fairly soon. I'm going to miss him, but I also miss snuggle time with dh, and dh wants that back, as well. DS2 will probably be on a "half the night out, half the night in" routine fairly soon.


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## Celery (Jun 28, 2006)

I never got further into this book than the bit where he suggests that a bottle of formula every night fro every child is an excellent idea.







: I'm guessing he doesn't know a whole lot abotu breastfeeding if he claims snacking and sipping is bad. I'd like to ban him from drinks between meals and see how he likes it.

Don't even get me started on people who refuse to give babies any credit for sleeping unless it's over an hour.

Apparently the author has a nap every afternoon.


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## BelovedK (Jun 7, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tangelo*
if you don't follow his method, your child will end up with lifelong sleep problems and become addicted to sleeping pills.


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## theaspins (Aug 4, 2005)

I used to babysit for a family whose kids were patient of his. The sleep obsession was scary! I swear they thought that sleep was the most important thing in the world. The mom would (on Dr. Weissbluth's advice) leave the baby asleep in their apartment when she took the 2 oldest ones to daycamp. Apparently his nap was more important than his safety!


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## Fiddlemom (Oct 22, 2003)

haven't read all the posts yet, but...

I agree that this guy is totally off his rocker!!! I used to love to read "the enemy" when my first was very young--I didn't read this one but I read Ferber, Babywise (yuck!!!), and some others. I found the whole controversy so fascinating. It was also great aversion therapy when I was sleep-deprived and feeling desperate enough to try anything.

But you're right---those voices would creep in and make me paranoid too from time to time. Maybe it's time to re-read some of the great attachment parenting favorites...get your mind back on track!


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## Dido (Jan 7, 2006)

I'm so glad to hear I'm not alone and others have experienced "Weissbluth rage"!! You know, I do agree with those who say there is a little bit of useful information in there, but everything that's useful (such as "tired signs") I picked up from MDC months ago...so I am less impressed than maybe I would have been if I had this book when DD was a newborn. Thanks to those who are reassuring me about sleep! Oh, and I can't believe the story about the parents who would leave their baby behind in the house alone lest his nap be disturbed.







:

You know, I do think some babies (not all) do very well with routines, but why is Weissbluth so convinced that routines can ONLY be achieved through crying? It's like he's in love with crying. He says "birds fly, babies cry."

The saddest thing in the whole book to me was the story of an adopted baby from Guatemala who was 9.5 mos when she arrived in the US. She had never slept in a crib before and missed her foster family. And what did the Weissbluth-brainwashed adoptive parents do? They started sleep-training her in the third day of her arrival. On the first night they let her cry from 7 pm to 2:45 a.m. Night after night she cried (although they consider it a big triumph that she cried for less every night) and the adoptive mother says in the story that for months she had "trouble" with naps (which if you read between the lines means more crying) before getting on the routine. First, it burns me that these parents adopt a precious baby who has always co-slept and instead of snuggling, wearing, and nurturing this tiny person who has been taken from everything she knows, they let her cry alone in a crib behind a closed door. Second, the magic sleep-training isn't worth much if it took months and months of crying. Even looking at it from a mainstream point of view, if it took months and months, then what is the advantage to the supposedly quick-working CIO method? You might as well lead the baby gently, without crying, into a routine.

Arg! You know, I'm ready to take the book back to the library, but now DH has hold of it. He keeps following me around aghast, quoting little horrified snippets. Since I'm the one who goes on MDC, reads baby books, etc, it is fun to see his reaction. He is kind of insulated from what a lot of mainstreamers do so he's kind of in shock!


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## kreyno4 (May 10, 2006)

Another traumatized person jumping in! dd won't nap very much, and as such gets WAY less sleep than the recommended number of hours in the books. Fortunately, I got it from a better authority (my mom) that some babies (my sister and I) rarely nap and turn out absolutely fine.

It also bugs me that he says that things never get better on their own, that children's sleep issues are basically NOT phases that they will grow out of. This seems irrational to me. Here is an analysis of why some sleep issues are developmentally-related especially at 4 mos., 8-9 mos., and 18 mos.

http://moxie.blogs.com/askmoxie/2006...t_are_sle.html

HSHHC makes me wish I knew more about biology and psychology so I could analyze the science behind Weissbluth's claims. I think that science may be sketchy. I believe he bases a lot of his claims on the children in his medical practice. This would be a biased sample since those families are (presumably) already following his program. I am sure he is not wrong about everything but it would be interesting to have his claims (# of hours of sleep children need, "biological" times for naps and bedtimes, etc) evaluated from another perspective. Of course, our own experiences and intuition are also valid counter-arguments but I would be interested in hearing the scientific side, too.


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## MuesliMama (Jan 27, 2006)

I read the Weissbluth book before I knew any better, when DD was just a couple of months old and several friends recommended it. The only thing I got from it was to try to help DD nap every couple of hours in those early months, and that did help her moods.

Then I found the Sears baby sleep book, which contradicted so much of what Weissbluth recommends, and felt so relieved. The Sears book felt more intuitive and natural to me and has supported me in my gentle decisions.


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## wannabe (Jul 4, 2005)

I just know the story of the poor little Guatemaan baby is going to haunt me.

That poor thing! It just goes to show how spoiled I am - all the adoption blogs I read show way more understanding of attachment theory than that. Figlet, for example.


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## royaloakmi (Mar 2, 2005)

Don't flame me - I DO NOT endorse the CIO aspects of this book.

That being said, I found it very helpful when I was trying to understand my infant twins' sleep patterns and find a better nap routine for them. Understanding general sleep rhythms made me realize I was trying for their first morning nap when they were already way overtired, for example.

Plus, his whole point is that if you pay attention to your child's sleep cues and give them the opportunity to sleep when they are naturally ready, then they shouldn't have to cry.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *royaloakmi*
Plus, his whole point is that if you pay attention to your child's sleep cues and give them the opportunity to sleep when they are naturally ready, then they shouldn't have to cry.

Depends on the child. DD absolutely would not go to sleep when we tried to put her down for a nap. Nursing didn't help, rocking didn't help, walking with her didn't help, singing to her didn't help. The only way to get her to sleep was to wait it out until she was _completely_ "beyond beyond" (my mom's very apt way of describing it), and then leave her alone for about 2 minutes. Any attempt to get her to sleep before severe exhaustion set in was completely futile.

On the other hand, I never tried to get either of my boys down for a nap at all. If they were tired, they did their own thing. DS1 would just fall asleep for a 10 minute catnap. DS2 fusses to be fed (that's his sleep cue), then falls asleep at the breast.

I haven't read the book the OP is talking about, but it doesn't sound like it would make any difference for any of my kids.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Quote:

So I just stopped and told myself that "he will sleep when he needs, for as long as he needs and it is my job as his Mama to help him out when I can and trust in his own instincts as well as my own". It's become my new mantra more or less.

Could not have put it better.

We never had any kind of sleep schedule. Sure, she still needs me to fall asleep 99% of the time (dd is 13 months) but I don't care. Someday I will be wishing she would curl against my breast and fall asleep...

Like when she barely acknowledges my exsistence as she is running out the door to somewhere more exciting


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## Dido (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *royaloakmi*
Plus, his whole point is that if you pay attention to your child's sleep cues and give them the opportunity to sleep when they are naturally ready, then they shouldn't have to cry.

I have to say, I wish that was his whole point. But it did not come off that way to me. Just about every single "parent story" involved harrowing (to me) descriptions of extended crying. He spends a lot of time defending crying - it's not that bad, children must learn, it's often necessary, protest crying versus pain crying, it's good to set limits, all children cry, etc. etc. - to the point that it got a little sinister, as if he wants babies to cry. To me there was an element of sadism to his "revolutionary program." Sure, it may be that it's just my interpretation, but I feel that if he was interested in avoiding having babies cry, he would not spend so much time trying to make mothers feel better about leaving their crying children alone behind a closed door (he recommends, for example, you tie a string from your foot to your husband's foot to make it harder for you to leave the bed and go to your child). With that said, if you got something out of his book that helped your child sleep without involving CIO, that is great, but I do not think that's going to be the case for the majority of parents reading this book.


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