# Natural and Logical Consequences for disrespect



## PeaceMongerMama (Aug 3, 2011)

UP is not working sorry UPs, I give, I love the idea still but can't live with the behavior any longer. I'm going to try natural and logical consequences, which in some cases is simple but for general lack of respect, screaming, throwing tantrums,not getting his way, it's harder. Any ideas?


----------



## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

How old his your child? Some of what I would do for logical consequences would depend on the age of the child.

When dd was little (2-4), it was mostly an offer of a hug, and some quiet time by herself if she was out of control. We also modeled talking politely and would rephrase stuff for her. As she got older, it was a quick hug, asking her to rephrase and a request to tone it down or take it to her room. By the time she hit 6-7, the logical consequence of dd screaming and yelling at us when she didn't get her way is to send her to her room until she can be civil. Sometimes we first ask her to rephrase something, but when it's a complete blow-up, it's off to her room.

We'd seen definite improvement. However, recently a neighbor introduced her to Disney Channel, we were traveling, she was tired and we had some major backsliding. While the shows that she watches on Disney Channel were listed as content appropriate on commonsensemedia.org, I'm still not happy about the tone used in them (ANT farm, Good Luck Charlie). So, the logical consequence that I came up with was: Unless there's an improvement in your tone, I'm going to block Disney Channel. I could trace the increase in snarkiness directly to Disney Channel and I needed to nip that in the bud. We've watched a few shows together and talked about how sometimes the characters aren't very nice to each other. I hate to say that the threat of losing ANT Farm really improved things!

Sometimes the logical consequence is that you get to go to bed earlier and earlier until you can make it through the day in a reasonable fashion. 50% of dd's meltdowns are from being tired, 30% from having had lunch with too little protein (i.e. she's hungry), and 20% are because she can't make the rest of the world do what she wants them to. I can't fix those last 20%, and it's usually those that get her sent to her room for extended periods. Yesterday she was having a hard time, and not calming down. I gave her a cheese stick, sent her upstairs and when she came down about 5 minutes later still sobbing, I gave her a hug. She cried for 2-3 minutes and then was done. The cheese had done its job.

Just FYI: Natural consequences don't have to be engineered -- it's what happens naturally. Walk to the park in your flip-flops though mom suggested you change shoes -- you get a blister. (Dd was much much better about changing shoes after that...) The logical consequence would be: You don't want to change shoes, mom isn't going to take you to the park. The natural consequence of yelling at your parents is that they get mad at you.

I'm not sure how you're interpreting UP, but I don't see consequences as anti-UP. The way I read the book was that you don't keep on punishing your child. Impose the consequence + connect afterward works well for us.


----------



## nina_yyc (Nov 5, 2006)

We operate on about the same principle as Lynns6 family. Rephrase, regroup, and if not then spend some time alone until you can be civil. If we're out and you cross the line, we're going home. We do back this up with lots of conversations about manners and respect and I tell DD that no-one has the right to speak rudely to her. When I do yell I try to apologize afterwards.

We have discussed the natural consequences of treating people rudely. If people are frustrated with you they will not want to do you favors, read extra books, spend time with you. We have discussed meaning what you say - what if mom really did go to jail? What kind of family do we want to have - one that is respectful or one that is mean-spirited?

This is a LONG road for me and not at all helped by the fact that my DH is really burnt out right now and gets frustrated easily. Over time I think it is working.


----------



## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

I totally agree with this aspect of "kid programming." There are ways of dealing with other people shown on these types of shows that are rotten, may of which would never OCCUR to my son to engage in. So I don't need him to suddenly be exposed to this stuff and start emulating it.

That's one of the many reasons I am very much not a fun mom when it comes to kid shows.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LynnS6*
> 
> We'd seen definite improvement. However, recently a neighbor introduced her to Disney Channel, we were traveling, she was tired and we had some major backsliding. While the shows that she watches on Disney Channel were listed as content appropriate on commonsensemedia.org, I'm still not happy about the tone used in them (ANT farm, Good Luck Charlie). So, the logical consequence that I came up with was: Unless there's an improvement in your tone, I'm going to block Disney Channel. I could trace the increase in snarkiness directly to Disney Channel and I needed to nip that in the bud. We've watched a few shows together and talked about how sometimes the characters aren't very nice to each other. I hate to say that the threat of losing ANT Farm really improved things!


----------



## Vancouver Mommy (Aug 15, 2007)

As a bit of a logistical aside, how do you get the child to stay in their room? We've never used time outs before (and I don't think this falls under the category of time out) and I find that when I take them up to their room and ask them to stay till they can be polite they sometimes simply storm out and scream "No!" If they are in a place where I can reason with them I offer to read to them to help them calm down, but sometimes they are quite beyond that point. Perhaps I need to intervene earlier and have a no tolerance policy for that sort of behaviour. I believe consistency has been my problem, but now I need to shift the balance in a way that doesn't cause mutiny.


----------



## nina_yyc (Nov 5, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vancouver Mommy*
> 
> As a bit of a logistical aside, how do you get the child to stay in their room? We've never used time outs before (and I don't think this falls under the category of time out) and I find that when I take them up to their room and ask them to stay till they can be polite they sometimes simply storm out and scream "No!" If they are in a place where I can reason with them I offer to read to them to help them calm down, but sometimes they are quite beyond that point. Perhaps I need to intervene earlier and have a no tolerance policy for that sort of behaviour. I believe consistency has been my problem, but now I need to shift the balance in a way that doesn't cause mutiny.


I'm interested to see the answers to get because your oldest is about 5. I started this when DD was three and I just kept picking her up and putting her back in her room until she figured out that I meant it. At the time I did feel pretty heavy-handed about it but I was doing the best I could. The behavior was really unacceptable and there was no reasoning with her at that age.


----------



## Vancouver Mommy (Aug 15, 2007)

Yeah, that's how I feel - heavy handed. I want to give her tools to deal with her out of control, angry feelings, not punish her. I suppose modeling the behaviour is one way, and talking to her when she's calm and hoping that it will sink in.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nina_yyc*
> 
> I'm interested to see the answers to get because your oldest is about 5. I started this when DD was three and I just kept picking her up and putting her back in her room until she figured out that I meant it. At the time I did feel pretty heavy-handed about it but I was doing the best I could. The behavior was really unacceptable and there was no reasoning with her at that age.


----------



## prescottchels (Jun 8, 2007)

I don't think it's "heavy handed" to be consistent in your actions to help your child learn a new strategy. That's how I look at it.... It can definitely be intense in the moment if you have to keep returning a screaming or otherwise upset child to his/her room but ultimately they'll learn that it's a good thing to take the space they need to get grounded. Especially if you can do it calmly and lovingly. You may try staying in the room with the child for a few minutes or until they calm down so they don't necessarily have a reason to leave to come to you, but they may still try and leave the room and you'll need to keep correcting the behavior until you get the results you're looking for ie. a calm and civil child.

Good luck everybody. Be consistent, that's the key.


----------



## PeaceMongerMama (Aug 3, 2011)

When things don't go his way, he has huge, aggressive outbursts, yelling, threatening and sometimes it gets physical, he will throw a toy, he will strike me if I try to restrain him or guide him to his room. For example, last night he wanted a cupcake, when I told him there weren't any left, he skyrocketed from mellow to belligerent in a split second. Immediately he started yelling, I hate you, you get them right now, if I respond in anyway, even a calm supportive way he ramps up the aggression yet he wont allow me to ignore him. If I ignore the outburst, he comes up to me and pushes me, shoves, something to attempt to engage me in a fight. If I ignore the push, he will get increasingly violent until I can't ignore it, if he strikes me then I restrain him and he starts thrashing wildly, then he'll calm down and as soon as I let go, repeat. I admit, a few times I basically shoved him in his room and held the door closed until he calms down. I hate this but it did work a few times. Then he started using things in his room to pound on the door, shoes or books.

This is his reaction to basically everything that doesn't go his way. If we are out and he wants a toy or snack at the store, if we are home and he wants to use the computer or TV but his time is up, if I tell him his friend can't come over to play or he can't go to his house, or we're at the pool or park and it's time to go home. I don't give in to his demands. At first I thought that was all I had to do and he would realize these tactics aren't working for him. It didn't work like that and the behavior got worse. Before anyone asks he has been to two professionals, I didn't find either very helpful. One told me to do a reward chart for good behavior the other told me keep dragging him to time out, aka super nanny style, he actually referred to super nanny. I'm really not enthused about either of these methods, to say the least. Dragging him to time out is becoming physically impossible. He's a very big 5.5 yr old.

I want to come up with a plan, so I can apply it every time. I have tried getting him to take deep breaths, this seems to incite more anger in him, after he's calmed down, he will then sometimes do the deep breathing. I have tried ignoring him. I have tried times outs, sending him to his room. I have had countless discussions about how his actions hurt feelings and body and himself. I want him to learn how to calm himself down, ultimately. I have some ideas. 1 - Explain to him that every time he makes a threat, yells, or hits he will have a choice he can go to a quiet place and calm down, if he doesn't then there will be a consequence. But I'm having trouble coming up with a logical consequence for his behavior? My other idea is - Explain to him that every time he makes a threat, yells or hits, he has a choice to go to a quiet place and calm down or nor but if he goes to a quiet place to calm down he will earn some kind of token for a reward system.

I'd love some feedback on these ideas or any other ideas or anything else you might suggest. I'm at my limit here and he can't go on like this.


----------



## NellieKatz (Jun 19, 2009)

I have an idea. I am looking at your name, PeaceMongerMama, and I am wondering....are you one of those moms (like I am a lot of the time) who is trying SO much to be fair, and peaceful, and "use your words" and "I hear what you're saying," and pretty much sounding like a therapist with that gentle, level "tell me how you feel" voice etc etc when in reality you could very well be masking the fact that you're pretty ticked off?

Work with me here. Because this is me, too. My son has told me on more than one occasion (when I'm using my "calm reaction" voice) that he hates it when I "talk like that." It infuriates him. I think I know why!

My son senses it as one of several things: (1) inauthentic. I'm mad & I'm not saying so. (2) manipulative (3) condescending. Now, I'm not saying that I AM (or that you are) actually BEING these things....but I am wondering aloud if your son might be hating that. Hating that always-peaceful, always-level-headed self. I mean, when you're mad, if someone talked to you like Nurse Ratched on One Flew Over The Cuckoo's nest (you know that tone of voice), wouldn't it make you feel MORE like throttling them?

I am not putting you down. I am exploring. (I LOVE to explore inner layers of things)

So ask yourself, ARE you being honest with him? Do you really get MAD and want to throw in the towel when he does these things? Tell him so! It could help. I don't mean rage at him or act as bad as he does, but get really in touch with how frightened or angry his behavior makes you and (most importantly) WHY.

Marshall Rosenberg's book about anger (which I downloaded for a mere $5.50 or so to my Kindle Reader iPhone app) really helped me not only to see where anger comes from but how we're to learn from it and move through it to getting our needs met for real. Hope that helps!


----------



## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

peacemongermama, what if, when the tantrum begins, you simply say "we do not speak to each other that way," and then isolate yourself? leave the room and lock yourself in another room? or explain that you yourself need a time out, and then just go elsewhere?

there is no need to endure verbal or physical abuse from your child. you can offer a choice but one option could be for you to go to a place where you "feel safe." explain that to the kid. that you will not allow him to talk to you/hit you/ disrespect you in that way.

in doing so you are also providing an important lesson to him-- that he also doesn't have to tolerate disrespect or abuse. i also think that's a logical consequence of sorts. i think modeling is important here; teaching that you do deserve respect. he's old enough to understand. you could also role play with him when he's not in the heat of an angry moment- role play what is an acceptable and respectful response to any number of situations.

also, what pp's speak of is EXACTLY why we're tv free. i remember that not too long ago i read a study (which of course i cannot find now) that showed that even children's programming that was supposed to show cooperation introduced some problems through the conflicts presented-- that it had some sort of influence by demonstrating conflicts or bullying types of situations, even though the premise of the show was to have kids work to solve problems.. and that even "positive" children's programming showed very negative effects on behaviors.

i do not speak as the parent of a 5 year old, though. i've worked in education but my kids are younger, so take it fwiw.


----------



## prescottchels (Jun 8, 2007)

Peacemongermama- you said, "Explain to him that every time he makes a threat, yells, or hits he will have a choice he can go to a quiet place and calm down, if he doesn't then there will be a consequence. But I'm having trouble coming up with a logical consequence for his behavior?" The choices I would offer are your ds can go to a quiet place and calm down on his own or the other choice is that you will take him. But it sounds like you're kinda over that strategy. I'm not big on external motivators/rewards, but it might be a good strategy short term to get him transitioned to a better place.

What if both of you set-up a special quiet place nest together? a little corner somewhere that's just for him with a bean bag chair, a pile of throw pillows a special blanket, maybe inside a kid size tent...? you could talk about what would make it the perfect place for him to want to go to when he needs to calm down.

Have you thought about looking at food allergies or sensitivities? there was a mama recently that said her child literally turned into demon child when she ate wheat. I've known kids that act crazy when they eat things with food dye, especially red. You could try an elimination diet of common allergens and/or take him in to be tested.

Hang in there! And keep us posted. Big hugs to you.


----------



## bstandlee (May 14, 2007)

As I was reading your most recent, longer post, PeaceMongerMama, the thought popped into my head that maybe he's feeling like he doesn't have control over much in his life. Sometimes when it seems DS (4) is throwing almost constant tantrums and exhibiting lots of anger I realize there haven't been many options for him lately. He needs a lot of choices where he feels he is in control (i.e. he gets to choose when and what he eats for breakfast...from "breakfast" approved foods that is; he has complete freedom to wear whatever he wants for the day, even if it's long pants and long sleeves on a 100 degree day; I let him choose what order we do things in as much as I can; when it's his "movie" time he gets to choose whatever he wants to watch from his age appropriate shows, etc.)

It seems like I've heard anger is almost always about control (or lack of it). So maybe giving him more control within boundaries might help in the long run with his outbursts? Of course that doesn't help you in the meantime or in the heat of the moment!

When DS gets really angry (he reacts in very similar ways to your DS but not all the time) I try to identify his emotions while matching his intensity as closely as I can (without scaring him lol!). This kind of ties in with what NellieKatz was saying...maybe if you're being too calm he gets more upset because he feels you're not really getting how angry he is. So I'll tell DS in a righteous angry sort of way "You're feeling sooooo mad right now! You're so mad you're kicking and screaming" and try to reflect some of that emotion in my voice. Not that I sound angry AT him...I'm not sure if I'm making sense!

But if he's being aggressive towards me, I have to hold him in a bear hug from the back and restrain him so I don't get hurt and wait until his anger is all used up (this can take 15-20 minutes). I keep repeating calmly that I love him but I won't let him hurt me and I can't let him go because he'll kick/hit me, I'll let him go when he calms down. I tell him to let all his anger out, that he'll feel better once it's all drained out. Once he starts calming down I offer to rub his back and he usually ends by turning around and hugging/holding me as his tears wind down.

I feel for you! Your DS sounds very intense when he's angry. I hope you are getting some helpful ideas from this thread.


----------



## prescottchels (Jun 8, 2007)

the bear hug technique has worked well for me too


----------



## Just1More (Jun 19, 2008)

Sometimes, feeling out of control isn't solved by being given MORE control. Sometimes a child is really needing boundaries. They are feeling uncertain and confused and scared because they feel unstable with so much power.

Also, I wanted to add that anger isn't always about being controlled. Often it is about being afraid. Something deep, deep down in there. Anger masks fear, and it makes us feel like something is happening, like we are doing something.

For example, if a child is constantly loosing possessions, things he deems his, unexpectedly, I believe they will eventually begin to act unreasonable about it. Like...a child picks up something he sees as a treasure, and his mama swoops in and takes it away because it is dangerous. Or, he is forced to share. Or, he is really enjoying his popsicle, but it's time to go, so he has to give it up. There are lots of examples where perhaps a child could be treated more respectfully. So, if the child comes to expect that he may or may not be allowed to keep what is special to him, ANYTHING becomes something to make a stand over. He has to KNOW whether or not it is his...not in word, but in action.

That was just a random example of how we can set our kids up to be unreasonable about things/activities, etc.

I am listening to my kids playing outside and typing as fast as I can, so I hope I made sense.


----------



## mom2grrls (Jul 24, 2008)

Does he sleep well? my son has done all of those sorts of things from time to time(he's 7) and it's normally when he's overtired. He also had a bit of a breakdown yesterday and I think it had to do with adjusting to the first week of school.


----------



## lnitti (Jun 14, 2004)

Holy Crap! Are you writing about my child? She is 7 1/2 and no one in a million years would believe she acts like this at home. When they were younger, I would grab the youngest one and lock her and I in the bathroom for protection. If I didn't bring the younger one in with me, she would get the brunt of the rage. Even in the bathroom, she would pound and hit and throw stuff at the door. She still behaves like this.

I know it isn't very GD, but the last couple of times, I have taken her to her room and told her to stay there until she gets control of herself and if she refuses to do so, the consequence is X (i.e. no more Zoobles the rest of the day, or no movie, etc). I have yet to figure out a good way to get her to stay until she has calmed down. But I am tired of being attacked, having the younger daughter attacked and having toys and my house destroyed from her fits or rage. And truthfully, I do yell at her and I am not very GD in the moment and that is something I am trying to work on too.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PeaceMongerMama*
> 
> When things don't go his way, he has huge, aggressive outbursts, yelling, threatening and sometimes it gets physical, he will throw a toy, he will strike me if I try to restrain him or guide him to his room. For example, last night he wanted a cupcake, when I told him there weren't any left, he skyrocketed from mellow to belligerent in a split second. Immediately he started yelling, I hate you, you get them right now, if I respond in anyway, even a calm supportive way he ramps up the aggression yet he wont allow me to ignore him. If I ignore the outburst, he comes up to me and pushes me, shoves, something to attempt to engage me in a fight. If I ignore the push, he will get increasingly violent until I can't ignore it, if he strikes me then I restrain him and he starts thrashing wildly, then he'll calm down and as soon as I let go, repeat. I admit, a few times I basically shoved him in his room and held the door closed until he calms down. I hate this but it did work a few times. Then he started using things in his room to pound on the door, shoes or books.
> 
> ...


----------



## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Does it help you keep your cool to know that 5 is a pretty typical age for a hormone influx that mimics teenager like freak outs, eye rolling and general feelings of being both misunderstood, alone, and nagged and hounded all at the same time?

It doesn't excuse poor communication skills, but it might help you to take it less personally, which can quell the anger and help you come up with punishments that are indeed logical.

For mouthiness we just modelled the correct form of asking for quiet time, a second helping, no thank you, etc. For entitlement issues we just cut off the entitled item cold turkey, so when DS decided that the TV was his and he didn't have to share and he didn't have to take turns, we turned off, hid the cable boxes from him and got him a life to replace his obsession (looking at our current indoor garden of gold fish, garden snails and *gulp* beetles in my den I am not sure it was the best move, but he sure is into science now more than ever) For desserts we just cut out sweets altogether. We also (and you will not believe how far this went in turning his attutude into a more positive one) instituted chore based allowances and allow him to spend it on what he wants.

He weeds the garden he gets about 2 dollars depending on how many weeds he pulls, he does the dishes (plastic and metal only nothing too sharp) he gets about a dollar depending...he LOVES it and feels not only like he's in control of his money and how much things cost, but he's adding to the home. He gets a great sense of pride when I pull out a dish and say "Why who cleaned this, it is positively GLEAMING!" or when the flowers come through and the weeds haven't killed them (we're not great gardeners LOL).

This sense of having a purpose made him feel more responsible and more trusted and that helped him just generally be more positive.

For when things are really out of control it is usually due to diet or sleep. If DS starts the day with a heavy protein intake (at least 7 grams) he is more even keeled, UNLESS he has artificial colors in his diet. I can usually count down from 10 between the first bite of something artifically colored and DS's first spinning dance and in no less than 10 minutes he WILL have a tantrum...absolutely no doubt about it. So when that happens (which it does so less and less these days as I am learning his cues, reactions, and just getting smarter) I usually offer him a simple choice: Snack or rest. and he protests and I say "Snack or rest" and if he doesn't choose one of three or four high protein low sugar snacks in an acceptable time frame, I turn off the tv and all the lights in the livivng room at the main circuit breaker and I scoop him up and sit with him where if he cries I repeatedly remind him that if he doesn't want a rest he can have a snack. It has been a LONG LONG time since I have had to turn off the lights, but back then he would almost always choose a snack, but now and then he'd ask me to take him to bed.

I think consequences need to be logical and natural where possible, but I find it very hard to justify the logic in my consequences when they come from a place of anger. I say things like: If you won't be nice to me and treat me with respect, I'm going to take away your TV privileges...even if the lack of respect was over the dinner you made, or the conversation you wanted to have after school...it wasn't related to TV, but I try to justify it and it's just WAY too abstract for a kid to make the connection.

The more I can come from a place of just annoyed and not actually insulted the better I am at coming up with consequences and actions that make sense.

So know that 5 is a TOUGH age, but not just for parents, it's really hard for kids too, they are in this weird limbo between toddler and big kid, and they have all these hormones raging and they both want to snuggle up to you and claim their independence in the same breath and it's REALLY confusing for them and sad and lonely and scary. So be firm and consistent, but keep your understanding keen, because they really need our patience and guidance more than ever at this age.


----------



## PeaceMongerMama (Aug 3, 2011)

Thank you for all of your ideas. I've been thinking about this more and more, and clearly there are some anger issues with DS. But he is also very kind, funny, and fun loving at times too. The more I think on it the more I think the problem is impulse control and complete lack of ability to regulate his emotions, combined with him being very, very strong willed. If there was a switch in the brain that controlled impulses, his would be on the lowest possible setting. It's sad because he's a prisoner of circumstances, whatever they are at the moment, some kid at school says I don't want to sit next to you, DS will almost surely have an outburst that lands him in the office. He has his friend over, his friend doesn't like any of DS's suggestions for play, DS breaks down into tears, I tell him there's no pizza left, he will strike me, and so on and so forth.

I started reading Kids, Parents, and Power Struggles. I like what she says about the parent being an emotion coach and that is definitely the key to DS's troubles. By advice in the book, I started telling him things like, you're starting to yell, you're getting angry, sometimes when people get angry they need to take a break. Things like that. In the book, Kurcinka says if the child goes to hit you, grab his hand and tell him, I know you're angry but you can't hit. So I did it last night, it stopped him in his tracks! I was elated, it gave me hope. I tried it today and he just kept, shoving, hitting, and kicking. Again, I'm not big on rewards and loss but he is so stubborn, I don't know if there's any other way to get through to him, he has to make different choices.

He has these outbursts at school too. His teacher told me that afterward he is genuinely very remorseful. That is usually the case at home too, although sometimes he isn't, when I think he feels justified in his actions/beliefs. He is remorseful. He CAN control the outbursts sometimes. With Pre K , a summer program ( he got kicked out of) and Kindergarten, he was magnificent the first two to three weeks, I got glowing reports. Then things changed and both teachers made similar comments, how it seems once he gets comfortable he lets loose. I don't understand why he does this. It tells me that he CAN control it.


----------



## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

We all CAN control our emotions sometimes. When I am new to social group I do not let my real emotions show for a long time. I can go out and drink HEAPS of alcohol and not get drunk because I am that concerned about what people think of me. I literally become anal retentive in new places and around new people...once I feel safe, that control goes out the window.

I believe this is a normal psychological response to environments.

Just because we CAN do something doesn't mean we know HOW we do it and can control when to do it.

I guess the first time it stopped him because he was shocked...you have to keep being consistent and following through and maybe get someone bigger than nyou to step in...is his dad around and able to help? My DH had to step in at one point when DS was younger.


----------



## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hakeber*
> Just because we CAN do something doesn't mean we know HOW we do it and can control when to do it.


Yes! We're working very hard with dd right now on the how to do it. Getting enough sleep and positive attention are part of it, but it's not the whole story. It's hard.


----------



## kelli4062 (Mar 17, 2012)

I don't know how old this thread is; just came across it. Was your son perhaps born prematurely? My neice is 16 and has had rage control problems since she was a toddler. She was born several weeks early and was in the hospital for weeks after birth to help her lungs develop, etc.

I don't remember the exact description of the condition, but one doc suggested that some premie kiddos' underdeveloped nervous systems can translate into rage control issues as they get older. Don't know what the solutions were, but it mght be something to ask a doc about in case there is actually a medical issue involved. Might give you peace of mind to at least understand the "why."


----------



## bstandlee (May 14, 2007)

Hmmmm, that is very interesting. DS was 4 1/2 weeks early. He definitely has rage! Very intriguing theory. I'll definitely look into that. Thanks!


----------

