# Pros and Cons of "doing Santa"?



## lemontree (Dec 19, 2008)

Please help me process through this.

I was raised Catholic by a very strict and rigid family. Christmas was a huge consume-y extravaganza with a lot of Church. And a lot of "Santa is watching you. Be good." I believed in Santa for a very long time, loved the stories and TV specials. I started questioning my religion as a teen, and had rejected the Catholic Church by High School, much to my mother's dismay. Now, I would say my beliefs are a blend of New Age and Humanism. I also am big on ritual and tradition, and DH and I have spent 15 years together creating family rituals specific to us - we have plenty of Winter traditions, we do put up a tree for example...but not having a child until now ...we never really sorted out SANTA.

DH was one of 3 non Jewish kids in his entire Elementary School, so Christmas obviously was not a big part of his community and he says that he can't remember ever believing in Santa. He says he would have been laughed out of school. His family celebrated Christmas, sans church - and he equates Santa with a fictional character...."like Elmo" (his words)

DS is 2. We are trying to figure out how our family will handle the Holidays. Our community is diverse, but most of his friends (the children of moms that I met in pre-natal yoga mostly) "do" Santa. Now that I think about it, all but one are Christian! So guess, not that diverse.... We are one of the few AP families that I know. We are the only vegetarian family in our circles. I mention this stuff, because in many ways DS is already the odd man out socially.

Here is what I am struggling with. It feels really weird to lie to my son. As much as I love Christmastime, it just. feels. weird. But. (And it's a big but) he just turned 2 Oct 7, so in so many ways, he is a baby, attached to me; maybe I am too close to see him as the little boy, excited about the magical holiday that he will be soon....but he is a citizen of the world and more specifically of his community and 1. Do I want to deny him of the magic? 2..ESP when we operate left of the mainstream in so much of our life - am I taking away something kind of Universal about childhood? 3. OY. Our families will pitch a fit.

I kind of like DHs experience. Santa wasn't a huge thing - just something his family did among other seasonal stuff, kind of acknowledging that it was all pretend, and all going along with it....but I think he had that experience in part because he was growing up in a Jewish enclave. DS is not having that experience.

For the life of me, I don't know how to NOT do Santa, if that makes sense....my own experience is so limited.

If we do "do Santa" there will be one gift on Xmas morning. We will talk about the story of Jesus' birth, as we will talk about lots of stories from lots of religions all year long. Perhaps we will celebrate Solstice and exchange family gifts then, and make the season about giving more than receiving....

I am sorry for the ramble. I could really use some insight. Can we discuss the pros and cons of doing Santa?

TIA


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Mostly I am just subbing as I don't really have anything constructive to add. DS is 3.5 and we've managed to avoid Santa talk up to this point. I think what we're planning on doing is presenting Santa as a fictional character...like Elmo . I'd like him to have some of the magic of pretending/telling stories, etc. about Santa without lying to him. It just doesn't sit well with me.


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## lemontree (Dec 19, 2008)

APToddlerMama, please tell me how you avoid Santa talk? It's not even Halloween and I have already heard one Mama on the playground mention Santa, "maybe Santa will bring you that tricycle" ....


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

We never did Santa with our kids. But if you send them to public school it creeps in. You have to tell them that Santa is a fairy tale and some families like to pretend he's real... so you coach your kids into not spoiling the secret for others. As far as I know, my kids never told.

It helps that we used to travel with our kids at holiday time. They always came back to school with postcards and tokens of places they'd visited and so were able to re-direct the "what did santa bring you" talk.

We do solstice. A big soup and solstice party with our friends and neighbors at Dec 21st. No presents. A tiny potted tree covered with suns. A bonfire and candlelight.

No shopping.
No crowds.
No drama over presents given or received.
No rushing.

Just warmth and light and the company of fine friends.


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## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

I don't know if I have any suggestions, but I can empathize. Christmas and Santa were a huge freaking deal in my family growing up. HUGE. My mom went over the top with holiday decorations, baking, etc. and then Christmas day itself was almost unbearably exciting with some many little rituals to build up the anticipation of Santa, and then finally getting a huge pile of gifts!

At this point in my life, I have so many conflicting feelings about it all. It really was very exciting & fun as a kid to have the holidays turned into such a production. And my mom was wonderful at it, and since she died in 1998, I have found that the rosy glow around my memories of her are stronger than my memories of the stress/difficulty surrounding her devotion to the holidays. I wish my mom were around to give my DD a taste of what that kind of Christmas is all about, but there's no way I can re-create it for her. Not that I'd want to! The holidays totally stress me out, in part because I always feel myself falling short of those high expectations! And I'm really trying to forge a less materialistic, less frantic lifestyle for my DD.

So. DD is only 3, and we've gotten through 3 Christmases just fine. We focus on traveling to visit family and doing family gifts, but really focusing more on sharing food, singing, hanging out together. I find the holidays mostly fun & manageable, even with my DP's family. We've mostly avoided Santa talk.

But this year DD is in school, so I expect things to change. I'm not sure how. I just know that she's got a whole new set of influences in her life, and peer culture is a powerful thing.

Anyway, I will continue to read with interest to find out how things are working out for you!


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## Ma Cactus (Mar 11, 2011)

I have this problem as well, in a major way. I grew up with the whole nine yards myself, got in a fistfight defending Santa's authenticity in the 2nd or 3rd grade, and was OUTRAGED to discover that I had been fully in the wrong and lied to by my own mother. My two sisters never felt this way. My oldest sister was very touched when she found out that Mum had bought all those presents over the years, because we grew up in a single-parent family with very tight finances.

When I was 18 I started converting to Judaism (for totally unrelated reasons obviously), spent many years observing orthodox ways here and in Israel, and eventually grew dissillusioned with it to the point that I stopped almost all observances (I still cannot bring myself to eat pork or shellfish for example), married a lapsed Catholic, and did not circumcize my son (now 22 mos).

My DH thinks that all the 'regular' holidays are just fun for kids, with no harm in them, and definately to be shared with DS. I of course see them all as christian holidays, even the parts that are not truly part of chrisitan religion. Although I no longer practice Judaism, the sense of having firmly rejected christianity is very strong, but at the same time, I don't really have a Jewish leg to stand anymore either.

Before DS, we never observed Xmas in any way except to visit with family for dinner. Last year we did buy a small potted tree as a compromise. This is the first year we will have to deal with Santa, and I dread it immensly. I am already reluctantly allowing Halloween dressing up, which also brings the whole candy problem, argh.

Phew. what a tirade.

Maybe I can talk him into Solstice as a truly non-denominational alternative....


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## Youngfrankenstein (Jun 3, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *philomom*
> 
> We never did Santa with our kids. But if you send them to public school it creeps in. You have to tell them that Santa is a fairy tale and some families like to pretend he's real... so you coach your kids into not spoiling the secret for others. As far as I know, my kids never told.


Same with us. We are very "religious" and celebrate Christmas but we've never told them to believe in Santa. We talked about Santa in a very casual way and it's a fun story in our house. It wasn't a big deal either way until last Christmas when my kindy-aged daughter was convinced there was a Santa because classmates had convinced her so. I tried to say there wasn't but after a few times of her breaking down sobbing and saying "Yes, he is real!" I let it go and didn't try to convince her he wasn't real. That notion went away after a few weeks and it went back to the way it was before.

And I can see where CI Mama is coming from. I enjoy "the holidays" but I don't like to focus on that time in a huge way. We do a tree for the kids and exchange gifts but I don't want it to be a build-up and explosion thing. I just like the idea that we can all treat each other with care and respect every single day of the year.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lemontree*
> 
> APToddlerMama, please tell me how you avoid Santa talk? It's not even Halloween and I have already heard one Mama on the playground mention Santa, "maybe Santa will bring you that tricycle" ....


Lol. Well so far this year it has been easy because I've been hospitalized for weeks in PTL, so we're not at any playgrounds. Last year, DS was 2.5 and does have some speech delays, etc. so any talk of Santa totally went over his head. As far as relatives bringing it up a few times last year, we just said things like "yeah, it IS fun to play pretend and talk about Santa." DS had no clue what was going on, but at least it was a heads up for them.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

We do Santa, because I love it. (So far, two of my kids have figured it all out - ds1 a looooonnnng time ago, as he's 18 - and they've been fine with it.) But, I don't think it's an essential part of it, if a person doesn't want to do it. If you want to, but don't like the lying part, why not just present Santa as a fictional being, and then make the stockings or a gift or whatever "from Santa". It can still be fun, even when everyone's in the know. My mom's done a few "Santa" gifts over the years (at least, I know one of them was mom, and I think the others were), even since we became adults.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ma Cactus*
> 
> < Maybe I can talk him into Solstice as a truly non-denominational alternative....


http://www.amazon.com/Solstice-Tree-Jenny-Search-Future/dp/1573929301

My dh was raised Jewish.. I was at the knees of fundie parents and felt lied to at an early age. The solstice thing is very healing for me. As far a the "soup and solstice" thing I throw.. I think I invented it. And its a huge hit with our multi-cultural neighbors who don't always understand the hustle and oddness of the American xmas experience.


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## pianojazzgirl (Apr 6, 2006)

We "do" Santa here too. I have so much fun with it! Like pps I remember the excitement and "magic" of Christmas very fondly. I had no disappointment or sense of breaking-of-trust when I learned that Santa wasn't real. I guess I "got it" that Santa is a thing that little kids believe in (that parents "play" with little kids), and now that I'm big I'm "in on it". We continued to "do Santa" though even once I knew. We would still put out stockings, and milk and cookies on Christmas eve and everything. It was just fun pretend. And I also enjoyed being in on the stocking stuffing once I got older.

For whatever it's worth I wasn't raised with any religion, and I still am not religious.


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## dejagerw (Jan 5, 2010)

I'm Catholic. We did Santa when I was growing up. I'm the youngest and for years I pretended to believe in Santa. I was afraid if told my parents I knew there was no Santa I would stop getting so many presents at Christmas (since "Santa" brought so many).

With my kids I'm not doing Santa per se, but I'm not bursting their bubble and saying he isn't real. We don't play up Santa. Basically, I'm going to do what I'd normally do for Christmas. If other people play up Santa to my kids, I don't care. If he believes, fine, if not, no biggie. If he asks me if there is a Santa, I'll ask what he thinks, and go from there. I'm not going to convince him one way or the other about him. That's at least our plan so far.


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## Peony (Nov 27, 2003)

I had a similar experience to another poster where I did not take it well that santa was not real. I was crushed. We have never done Santa. My oldest child is in 3rd grade now and is 8, 9 right after x-mas. It honestly has never been an issue, ever. When she was younger, we presented santa as a fictional character like dora and that was that for years. When she was 5-6 then we started talking about how some people believed santa was a real person. She knows (or knew, I doubt many in her class still think he is real) to play along like he is real and not to reveal the secret to other kids. I never coached her on what to say but rather we just had discussions about how upsetting it would to tell other children, she chose to play along if adults asked her about santa. DD1 has always been a very literal child, her world is black or white, shades of grey do not exist for her. I did ask her last x-mas if she thought she missed out because we did not do santa, she didn't think so and was glad that we had never done it. We also elect out of the tooth fairy and easter bunny as well. DD2 turns 5 this weekend and is more much into fantasy play. She does pretend santa is real just like she pretends she is a princess or fairy. She isn't really aware yet that kids think santa is real but she is also of the age where most days she thinks she really is princess as well.

I've yet to meet another family locally that doesn't do santa except for religious reasons. I have always been surprised by that actually. I doubted my decision the first couple years but now I am firmly ok with it. I couldn't of gone through with the pretense of santa. It still feels very unsettling to me.

ETA: you mentioned that your fmaily wouldn't understand. My family lives locally and is very involved in our lives. I elected not to mention it for years. I don't think they realized until last year that we don't do santa. I didn't take the angle of keeping it from them but rather, "oh gosh, you thought we did santa? Of course we don't!". and moving on.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Peony*
> 
> We also elect out of the tooth fairy and easter bunny as well. I couldn't of gone through with the pretense of santa. It still feels very unsettling to me.


Yep, no easter bunny or tooth fairy here, either.

I felt very angry and betrayed by the parents lying about santa thing. I figured if they lied about all those things, ... santa, the tooth fairy and the easter bunny... that their god must be imaginary, too.


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## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pianojazzgirl*
> 
> We "do" Santa here too. I have so much fun with it! Like pps I remember the excitement and "magic" of Christmas very fondly. I had no disappointment or sense of breaking-of-trust when I learned that Santa wasn't real. I guess I "got it" that Santa is a thing that little kids believe in (that parents "play" with little kids), and now that I'm big I'm "in on it". We continued to "do Santa" though even once I knew. We would still put out stockings, and milk and cookies on Christmas eve and everything. It was just fun pretend. And I also enjoyed being in on the stocking stuffing once I got older.


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## CassnBeth (Jul 30, 2007)

My family "did" Santa growing up but I don't think I ever truly believed, not much after very early childhood anyway. My mother, bless her, has still refused to admit there is no Santa even though I turn 30 later this week so I never really had that moment of feeling parental betrayal. There was a whole big deal about it when I started taking on Christmas responsibilities like baking, like I was "in on it," and I liked that.

We "do" Santa now with our Christmas-obsessed two year old but I don't really try and convince her any of it is truly real. For instance, I wouldn't come right out and say that Santa is bringing her presents since that involves a pretty big lie but I do read Twas the Night Before Christmas. I wouldn't tell DD to go to bed on Christmas Eve so Santa could come but we do plenty of Santa crafts. Now that I am trying to describe this I see I have given myself a very fine line...


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## andromedajulie (May 28, 2011)

Wow! It's like I've been looking for this thread all my life!!

I grew up Christian but without Santa as a literal thing. I raised my DD1 with Santa, just because my ex-husband felt very strongly about it. Am now remarried, have put my foot down, and DD2 will be raised thinking that Santa is a fun guy related to Christmas, which we don't really celebrate, but Grandmom & Grandpop do. Even if we did, I would introduce it as a fun figurative idea. I mean really, I have met Christians, Atheists, Jews, who have acted like I am a criminal because I don't want to teach my kids that SANTA REALLY EXISTS. Truly!

It's just such a problem to combat the psychosis and the consumerism. My inlaws are really into giving 1000 gifts on a complete overload and I get really annoyed every year. We try to talk to them about it and they are just in denial that DH/we are doing things our own way. Ironically for them, when DH discovered Santa was a big lie, he decided God was too. Hilarious. I mean, regardless of belief system, you have to think about the effects of lying to your kids! I agree with many of you big time on that one.

Meanwhile, like one person above, we celebrate Solstice. We started it last year after much concentration on what we wanted. It was divine. We took elements we loved (magic, family, warmth, fire, lights, good food, music, a tree), added some more stuff, and ditched the rest. Basically we get either an evergreen tree or - this year - we're going to create a tree out of fallen branches from this beautiful curly branched tree we have, and decorate it. We do presents, but not in the extreme. We have a yule log onto which we attach notes we all write - together and/or privately - hopes, fears, dreams, ideas, things we want to let go of, we even sit late the night before talking to the log (it was great! crazy but therapeutic) and then we burn it in a big bonfire in the afternoon. In the evening we had a special fancy tapas meal by candlelight with a few friends over. We took DD1 out of school for the day, which is annoying to me to have to do, but it was worth it to make it 'real'.


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## transylvania_mom (Oct 8, 2006)

We do Santa, and tooth fairy and Easter bunny. Ds loves it. It' part of our traditions as a family. He's looking forward to all these rituals.

But it's not about the money or the presents. He gets $2 / tooth from the tooth fairy and the Easter bunny brings only chocolate eggs (no gifts) and we have a set amount of money for Santa's gifts.

Also, we don't threaten ds that Santa "is watching", he doesn't need to be good in order to earn his presents.

We don't make up stories about Santa. I think ds already knows it's pretend, and loves to pretend as well.

You can still keep the magic and take out the consumerism and icky part out of it.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

I'm big into the imagination. Believing in things for the fun of it. I don't like the use of Santa Claus as tool to garner good behavior though. My parents loved to do that on.

We have a neighbor who dresses up like Santa every year and decorates his house. My girls have been his front yard elves for years. He finally has two grandsons and he's gotten them into the mix as well. Every year his wife sends him over on christmas eve to give my girls their gifts. My girls believe he's the real Santa. I've never said he was, I've always said "you just never know".

I let them believe in the magic, why not? I have told them before that someday they won't believe in these things anymore and the excitement and magic will be gone. DD1 told me that a girl at school told her that her parents give her all her gifts. There is no Santa, no Easter Bunny, no toothfairy... DD1 decided her mom gives her all her gifts because when you stop believing the magic goes away and your parents will have to take over the gift giving so that you won't feel left out.

If my kids keep dreaming and believing I'm okay with that. I was the same way. I was never angry when I found out all that jazz wasn't true. My mom always said that parents make up the magic so that their kids can dream bigger. That was good enough for me.


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## pianojazzgirl (Apr 6, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imakcerka*  My mom always said that parents make up the magic so that their kids can dream bigger.


I like that.


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## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

Now that I've got a son of my own, I've been wondering about this very question as well. When I was growing up, we did Santa but my sister and I knew at a pretty young age he wasn't an actual person flying through the sky in a sleigh and dropping down chimneys. My mom always presented Santa (in all of his traditional trappings) as the spirit of giving and kindness - kind of like, we can all be Santa, all of the time. Santa is doing something nice for the people that you love, or people that have less than you (even when you have nothing). To be perfectly honest, my mom was not a very good parent and we're estranged now for a variety of reasons, but I do have to give her credit - this was one of her best moments and a great lesson that she taught my sister and I.

The actual execution of it stumps me a bit - up until a certain age when I was a kid, all of the gifts tags said "From: Santa" on them, but I'm not sure we will do that our house. Maybe just one or two labeled that way to illustrate the spirit of it? I'd like our son to know that we've selected gifts for him because we want to give him something, since meaningful gift exchange is important to us. We'd also like to do the cookies for Santa tradition since that was something fun to do as well, but I'm not sure how we'll structure that one either...


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Since the "big lie" effect on children has come up (understandably), I'm going to summarize my conclusions after years of being involved in these discussions on MDC. I think there are a few aspects of "doing Santa" that increase/decrease the odds of a child feeling really betrayed by their parents:

1) If the parents use Santa as a carrot and stick combo to enforce good behaviour, it seems to increase the odds that their child will feel betrayed upon discovering that Santa was really mom and dad. This makes sense to me, as well, as it takes a simple lie (and I'm actually usually extremely honest with my kids, but I make an exception for Santa, the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny...just as my generally very honest mom did with us) and turns it into a manipulative tactic. People don't like being lied to, but I think most people like being manipulated even less.

2) If the parents don't respect a child's own progress through the Santa myth, the child seems to be more likely to end up feeling betrayed. At some point, children become ready to hear the truth. IMO and ime, when a child starts asking if Santa is real, the answer, "yes, he is" isn't appropriate. Some people handle it with the "no, sweetie, he's not" approach, and some use the "what do you think?" approach. With my two oldest (ds2 still believes in Santa), we went through a year or two of "what do you think?" being answered with "I think he's real", and I left it at that. As soon as my child says "I think you and dad are really Santa", then I admit they're right. I think trying to convince a child over their own doubts and thoughts about it, makes them feel disrespected, and betrayed.

3) Pushing Santa really hard seems to add to the effect. Adding extras - glitter on the floors, bites out of the cookies/carrots/mincemeat tarts, sooty footprints (do people really do this? I can't imagine the mess) is fine, but I think it helps to leave some holes. DD1 put the whole thing together last year. I think one of the reasons she put it all together is that i was out shopping "for Christmas" a lot, and had a lot of packages delivered to the door, and there just weren't enough gifts from me to explain it all. She put it together that there were these really full stockings (I freely admit to being a bit unbalaned on the subject of stockings, and I go waaayyyy overboard), and put two and two together. I think that when parents get into really intricate levels of deception, it adds to a child feeling betrayed and foolish.

Anyway - just my two bits, based on my observations here over the years. I didn't realize how many people felt betrayed over the Santa thing until I came to MDC, but most of the families I knew were pretty laidback in their approach.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Like Storm Bride, I've never gone to great lengths to leave footprints or 'evidence' of Santa. We never went to see Santa. We certainly never used Santa as a threat to hold over our kids for good behavior. I don't like that sort of coercion.

Both my kids figured out about age 7 that we played Santa. Like Storm Bride, when they first started to ask, I'd say "what do you think?" That went on for 6-12 months. When my kids asked me outright if I was Santa, I told them the truth: Yes, we were. It was a role we played. Ds asked me why I did that (he is my why kid!) and I told him that it was fun to pretend to be magical. My dd was actually thrilled to find out. "So, you're the one who picked out those things?" "How did you get those sweaters for my animals?" "I knit them." (She was highly impressed.) She took it just as I had intended it - it's a sign of our love for them and it's fun to pretend.

I asked her this year if, since she knows the truth about Santa, we should skip the whole Santa routine. Her answer? A resounding "No!" Now it's just a fun tradition.

I wonder if some of the feelings of betrayal might come from other areas in a child's relationship with their parents. I never felt betrayed, even though my older sisters did actually try to create evidence of Santa (I was the youngest, and they wanted me to believe to make Christmas more fun). My kids haven't felt betrayed. We pretend lots of things in our family. If I can take a tour of the 'fire station' and the 'fire trucks' (our bedroom and our bed, respectively), they can handle a little pretend from my end. It didn't lead to betrayal. In fact, they felt some relief, since both were somewhat freaked out by the whole "home invasion" aspect of Santa (and the tooth fairy, and the Easter Bunny). Actually, if there's any reason not to do Santa, in my eyes, it might be that.

If a family decides they don't want to do Santa, the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy, for religious or ethical reasons, that's fine. But I don't think there's a blanket answer for every family. If you view it as a fun tradition and want to continue it, why not?


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## Aufilia (Jul 31, 2007)

I have to say that for myself, honestly, I have never equated Santa with lying. I think Santa is all about the magic of childhood. He is a modern myth that embodies kindness and the spirit of doing for others and of giving (though I know that's not universally true, but it is in our house--we do not have any of that "be good or else you get nothing" business and no spying elves-on-the-fireplace stuff). I know I believed in Santa when I was a kid and honestly couldn't tell you when or how I discovered he didn't exist--apparently his being fake was a non-issue in my life, even though I'm equally certain I still believed in him at least until was 7 or 8 and since I had 2 little brothers, was required to keep up the act until I was much older. I liked being "in" on the Santa thing with my parents once I was no longer a personal believer and helping to set up Santa for my brothers.


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Up until recently Santa was or anyone else was not actually allowed in the house. DD2 didnt like the idea and asked us to meet them all at the door. She didn't want them in her room. DD1 wasn't too concerned because she always saw the neighbor dressed in his santa gear coming by on Christmas eve. She's a sneaky little one. So she felt comfortable with him.

Since this was brought up here I asked my girls if they truly believed in Santa. DD1 said she did, but she new all the other ones were fakes. And DD2 said that she wasn't sure. Santa's too fat to fit down our chimeny, since she stuffed a huge Barney doll up there and now he's stuck... so... nope he probably has to use the door.

1. Check the Chimney

2. Does she believe in him then?

By the way I think she made the Barney doll part up. I don't see him up there. However I wouldn't doubt she considered doing it.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LynnS6*
> 
> Like Storm Bride, I've never gone to great lengths to leave footprints or 'evidence' of Santa. We never went to see Santa. We certainly never used Santa as a threat to hold over our kids for good behavior. I don't like that sort of coercion.
> 
> ...


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## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imakcerka*
> 
> And DD2 said that she wasn't sure. Santa's too fat to fit down our chimeny, since she stuffed a huge Barney doll up there and now he's stuck... so... nope he probably has to use the door.
> 
> ...


Hahahaha I hope it's not up there! But very smart and amusing of her to use the scientific method to make an informed decision! ;-)


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

Yeah I'm having DH check again today since I couldn't find a flashlight. They're always missing. Glad she said something though she might very well have done it and I just can't see it.


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## neonalee (Nov 20, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *andromedajulie*
> 
> Wow! It's like I've been looking for this thread all my life!!
> 
> ...


Oh my gosh! I haven't finished reading yet but I LOVE this idea! I am very conflicted about Santa. I got presents from Santa. I must've learned or figured it out early because I don't remember finding out. OR it was too traumatic? Have to ask mom.... My dsd found out last year, at 12. It was terrible. She was so angry for days. Her dad & her mom & I were debating what to do that year (I stayed out of the final decision) & in the end it seemed best to keep on with it because she so firmly believed. But she must have had some doubt due to her friends & Xmas day ended up very bad.

My conflict is that it feels like lying, though I don't consider those who go along with it liers (lyers?). None of us are Christian, even dsd mom's family. Well, my parents are Catholic, but not strongly anymore. I am pagan. Dp thinks he is atheist. Maybe we'll have a talk at dinner some night soon about what traditions we want our family to have. Thanks for starting this thread! Hopefully even more people will weigh in.

sent from my phone using tapatalk, please excuse typos.


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## neonalee (Nov 20, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pianojazzgirl*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I like this too. And it's funny because the Santa thing feels like lying to me, but I honestly believe in magic & fairies & unicorns etc? Hmm I better think this through!

sent from my phone using tapatalk, please excuse typos.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

You can create magic and wonder in a child's life without the santa deception. Really. I raised my kids without santa and they will tell you they didn't miss anything. In fact, my 17 years old dd, who is very sensitive, agonized growing up that some of her friends had so much santa disappointment each holiday season because they didn't get the perfect wish granted.. even though they had been so good. I remember one little girl, age 8, crying on dd's bed asking "why". And yes, we were tempted to tell her the truth.. but we didn't.

And finally, this essay makes some valid points since I'm agnostic/pagan anyhow....

http://atheism.about.com/od/christmasholidayseason/p/SantaMyth.htm

I love the solstice thing we created. Kids do seem to crave ritual and tradition.. I gave them those things without the lies.


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Oh, and here's a couple of vids I like. Even though I'm not really into the holiday. I think these create the feeling better than the usual crass materialism.


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## mbhudgens (Jun 6, 2005)

I absolutely loved the magic of Santa as a child and never felt "lied" to upon realizing the truth. I think it all depends on your personal experience. If you remember feeling resentful upon the discovery that your parents were Santa, I can understand why you would choose to forgo this tradition. However, childhood should be about magic and possibility and joy in whatever way you can create it for them. Too soon they will discover that while life can be wonderful, adulthood lacks the magic of youth. Providing my children with a sense of delight and excitement feels right. For us, Santa is less about the gifts than it is about the wonderment.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pianojazzgirl*
> 
> We "do" Santa here too. I have so much fun with it! Like pps I remember the excitement and "magic" of Christmas very fondly. I had no disappointment or sense of breaking-of-trust when I learned that Santa wasn't real. I guess I "got it" that Santa is a thing that little kids believe in (that parents "play" with little kids), and now that I'm big I'm "in on it". We continued to "do Santa" though even once I knew. We would still put out stockings, and milk and cookies on Christmas eve and everything. It was just fun pretend. And I also enjoyed being in on the stocking stuffing once I got older.
> 
> For whatever it's worth I wasn't raised with any religion, and I still am not religious.












I LOVED the holidays as a kid and even when I outgrew santa it was so fun to pretend. Once all us kids were grown and we all stopped pretending, Christmas really started to suck. People didn't even make lists anymore, it was like, eh, get me whatever, a bottle of wine or something. So annoying. I don't want that to ever happen with us and my children. They deserve to have the holiday spirit fill their little hearts, just like I did!

I don't plan on enforcing the whole "be good or else" thing though, that's just too manipulative, and i don't think it works anyway. If your kid misbehaves, it's not like you're really not going to get her what she wants.


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## 4midablemama (Jul 29, 2010)

My 5 year-old daughter started kindergarten this year and I am sure she will come home at some point soon asking me why some other kid in her class thinks that there's no Santa; at that point, I intend to tell her about St. Nicholas, about how he WAS a real person, a very long time ago, and that he loved to help children and the less fortunate. I'm not sure yet where I'll go from there. Our emphasis at Christmas has always been that it's a season of family and friendship, that it's first and foremost about giving to others and giving thanks for the blessings in your life. I have no problem with my children believing in Santa; he's part of the magic of the season and just like any other part of Christmas, he is what you make him. He can be the huge, obnoxious, technicolor character that the media has turned him into, or he can be as St. Nicholas was, a humble man who lived the spirit of generosity that became what we know now as Santa Claus.


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## ali171 (Aug 19, 2011)

We have decided not to do santa but we will still have some of the traditions and plan to incorporate traditions from other cultures for fun. As a kid I equated Santa`s ability to break into my house as more of a security risk than anything. If he could use magic to get in (we had no chimney large enough) than so could vampires and other nasty creatures or people. I was terrified of vampires.


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## redheather (Aug 20, 2011)

Indeed-- magic, fairy tales. It's part of what makes childhood wonderful.

We're trying for the "spirit of the season," taking in the realities of all the traditions that occur at this time. Our kids will encounter them all, and they're all worth taking a looking at. Perhaps Santa is simply a spirit/fairy/gnome/good feeling.

It's really up to our individual family cultures, though, isn't it? That's where- hopefully- our child draws the strength to be "different," in whatever way that is.

Santa? Well, if it feels like a lie, then no, right? But if it feels like fun, then yes!


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## Nikitta34 (Jul 20, 2010)

My parents are very religious (Protestant) and did not do Santa with us. Their logic was that they didn't want to lie to their children (because then we wouldn't believe anything they said) and that "Jesus is a Reason for the Season." I can say that all four of us kids are bitter that we never got to enjoy the magic of Santa, and will share the Santa story with our own children. We didn't get to go trick or treating, either, and that is also something we feel cheated out of... Never got to carve a pumpkin, etc.

Now that I have a son of my own, I have thought a lot about how much I want Santa to be a part of our Holiday tradition. I want the focus to be more on family, giving to others, and the spirit of the season. We will share the Christian Christmas story (Baby Jesus) along with that of Santa.

DH's favorite childhood memories include the time he was six and "heard" Santa on the roof, etc. His eyes light up when he tells the stories, and I don't want to cheat my son out of this experience. That being said, I do'nt want him to get wrapped up in commercialism. We plan to include a lot of volunteering and charity work in our Holiday tradition to help DS develop an awareness of other children both in our community and in the world.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *redheather*
> 
> Santa? Well, if it feels like a lie, then no, right? But if it feels like fun, then yes!


I really truly agree with this!! It's a personal decision with no real right or wrong. You have to do what you feel comfortable with!!!


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## txgirl (Jul 23, 2006)

I really love to see this discussion (it has been here every year since i have had children and had occasion to think about it, and every year i get something out of it). There was just a post about it here, if no one has seen it. http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/santa.html

I'd love to hear anyone's experience of the book mentioned in the post, I haven't read it.

My experience was that i was a STRONG believer that he was the only magic thing left in the world (i am still an incurable optimist), and my mom told me when i was in 5th grade, and i cried. I was never angry at my mom, just disappointed in boring old reality. But neither did i think about or appreciate (until now, when i am an adult with my own children) what work she had to do, as a single parent, to make that magic happen. However, she loves christmas and I know she enjoyed doing it. That is my thing now, part of me wants my kids to know that that love and effort that we made to give them something they wanted was from US, their loving parents. Santa's goodwill seems a little disconnected in that way. We have tried to make our gifts for them, the last couple of years, instead of buying something. And like alot of you I want them to be happy with less, not open a present, glance at it and look around for more. Maybe Santa could give them the smaller gifts, like in stockings, and leave the bigger special ones to be from us.

My son is just as strong a believer as me, and being so excited/anxious/anticipatory about things (christmas, big trip to grandparents) actually can make him feel unwell. I wonder if we'd be able to forgo that if there wasn't such a big buildup to christmas morning in his mind. Although i know it's a happy excitement too, none of us enjoy it when he's crying on the couch or feeling sick to the stomach.

I do also like the view I once read about how Santa represents limitless possibilities for the kids. Like how my son said he was going to put some kind of blaster/gun toy on his wish list, although he knows that is not something I would buy for him at this stage. He asked me, "But what if Santa gives it to me, then could I play with it?" I just said, "We'll see."


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## myseekai (Oct 28, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lemontree*
> 1. Do I want to deny him of the magic? 2..ESP when we operate left of the mainstream in so much of our life - am I taking away something kind of Universal about childhood? 3. OY. Our families will pitch a fit.


I would just like to say that you can still have an AMAZINGLY magical Christmastime without Santa being a part of it. My dad has really strong opinions on Christmas, Halloween, Easter, etc. My sisters and I were all raised without Santa and we all LOVED Christmas time. We loved Christmas because we got to go visit grandparents and extended family that we didn't usually get to see. We got to make awesome cookies with our mom and grandma's. We got to play outside in the snow (I guess this would just be winter in general, haha!) and look forward to peppermint hot chocolate when we came inside. We knew "who Santa was" and "what he did" but we also knew that our presents came from our parents, grandparents, etc. If we ever acted up my mom just straight up threatened to take our Christmas presents back. She told us (VERY seriously) every year that if we went looking for our presents and ended up finding them she would take them RIGHT back to the store. Looking back I seriously doubt she would have but we sure believed her!

That being said, I am now 24 and I have an *almost* 2 year old son. When my husband and I had our first Christmas we had a brief conversation that went something like: "You don't want to do Santa do you?" "Nope." "Okay, good." Yay for easy decisions.  My son will know who Santa is and sure we might use Santa pieces for decorating around Christmas but he's not going to think Santa is bringing him his toys and things. Especially after mommy or daddy put SO much work into making something for him... no way Santa put that time in!!

Anyways, I really just wanted to say that your children can still have a completely magical time at Christmas and the days leading up to it without Santa. I am in love with the Christmas season to this day!

As to the part about your families hating your decision.. another thing about me growing up. We never celebrated Halloween because of my dad's feelings about it. Now that my son is about old enough to go trick or treating, my husband has expressed a desire to take him. I don't have a problem with this even though I know my dad is going to be really upset about it. It was an important part of my husband's childhood and I want him to be as equally excited about sharing things with our son as I am. It's never a good idea to be disrepsectful towards your family members but it IS important to do what you think is best for your family!


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## MCLL (Nov 16, 2011)

My son just turned 2 so I'm working my way through this question. My gut says that I don't want to "do" Santa with him; it just doesn't feel honest. It feels fine to talk about Santa as a fictional character, but not as someone who brings presents. Not as someone we would claim as real. My quandary comes as to how to make this work when celebrating the holidays with our extended family. My sister also has a 2 year old and she wants to include Santa as part of their holiday traditions. Have any of you had experiences with how to make a large family Christmas work if some families talk about Santa as real and some don't?


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MCLL*
> 
> My quandary comes as to how to make this work when celebrating the holidays with our extended family. My sister also has a 2 year old and she wants to include Santa as part of their holiday traditions. Have any of you had experiences with how to make a large family Christmas work if some families talk about Santa as real and some don't?


So, it depends on how accommodating you want to be. For us, we traveled a few years at the holiday season until the santa thing became less of an issue.. cousins outgrew the myth and so on. Or, you could sit down and talk with your sis. Maybe she's be willing to do a solstice thing with you all and then have a separate santa-y thing just for her kid with the grandparents. Either way, you should have some sort of agreement with her.. she shouldn't talk up santa with your kids and you won't take away the story for hers.


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## JudiAU (Jun 29, 2008)

Well, I was raised in a very religious household that didn't celebrate Christmas because of blah blah blah (pagan traditions, wrong date duh!,commercialism) blah blah so we had this random gift out of nowhere and a fancy dinner but that was it. Now my extended family does celebrate Christmas but, um, is not very good at it. A few years ago my mom forgot a Christmas tree. Truly. And woke up on Christmas morning with 15 kids coming nd though oops. Most of my friends went to my church so it wasn't a big deal really.

DH is a non-religous jew raised on the East Coast with a lot of Christmas fantasies. So he pictures bow ties and slicked back hair and Bob Crachit brings the turkey and I picture either ironic decoration or uber natural homemade.

So, no fantasy. I just don't dig lying to my kids for no good reason. They get goodies. They get traditions. (dinner, Christmas with my family, Jewish-Christmas (fancy boozy lunch at posh Hollywood restaurant) and sometimes even Festivus if we get around it. We talk about the tradition I suspect my 4 year old wants to believe but I neither encourage or deny. I am simply not willing to sit him for a false belief for...nothing.

Whatever you decide, I don't think 2 is the time to decide it.


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## Amanda_Reyasmom (Feb 5, 2010)

We love Santa and all the fairy tales. We took DD1 to Disneyworld for a Make a Wish trip (age 5) and she really truly believed! She saw some light flicker a reflection off of someone's watch or a mirror and was 1000% convinced it was Tinkerbelle. We were just talking about it yesterday.. She said "Thank you for letting me believe all that" It was so special to her. She's 12 now and has outgrown it all, but now she's ready to BE Santa for her baby sister.


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## sunwillshine (Feb 18, 2009)

Just wanted to add my two cents. 

First, I have LOVED reading this discussion and think it's so cool how many different winter celebrations we have!

We have been talking about what we'll do when the time comes. DD will only be a little over 14 months for Christmas this year, so the magic for her will bet he boxes and bows... but next year, we'll probably start implementing what we think will be our Santa tradition:

We also don't want to lie to her, per se, but we also do love the magic of Santa, and both loved it as children... we also want to have a good explanation about why Santa brings more gifts to some kids and less (or none) to others. Our solution is that she should make a list for Santa to tell him what she'd like, and that Santa then shares that list with us and we pick a few things from it, plus give her a gift or two that we came up with. We'll tell her that she's very lucky to have parents that can get her a few things from her list, but that other children don't have parents who can afford to do so, and that's why we'd like her to take some money from her piggy (which gets filled throughout the year from money relatives send for little holidays and birthday, and change we find around the house) to pick out a gift for a little boy or girl so they can experience the magic of the "Santa" part of the holiday, too.

At least... that's what we're THINKING we'll do. What we plan to do, and what actually happens I've realized can be two different things when raising a child and starting your own, new family traditions. But it's the direction in which we're headed, for what it's worth.

Oh, and sort of related - after this Christmas, we'll be having a one-in-one-out rule, where for each TOY she receives, she needs to pick a toy to donate to a local shelter/goodwill/similar. We're hoping this will cut down on the gift-giving (we've informed our families of the "rule" and encourage them not to go overboard... cause that's a lot of things for a little girl to pick out to part with!) and the amount of CRAP in our house.  We'll see how that one goes, too...


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## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lyndzies*
> 
> Oh, and sort of related - after this Christmas, we'll be having a one-in-one-out rule, where for each TOY she receives, she needs to pick a toy to donate to a local shelter/goodwill/similar. We're hoping this will cut down on the gift-giving (we've informed our families of the "rule" and encourage them not to go overboard... cause that's a lot of things for a little girl to pick out to part with!) and the amount of CRAP in our house.  We'll see how that one goes, too...


Good luck - I hope your family cooperates. My son will only be three months old this Christmas, and we've been hearing for a month now about the avalanche of bright, plastic, huge, loud toys everyone intends to buy. We've told everyone we appreciate the generosity but that we don't have the space for it, and find many types of those toys inappropriate, and made suggestions about things we'd rather he get (that he'd actually use) and several people got downright angry about it. Apparently they think that we, as his parents, deserve no input whatsoever in the quantity and type of possessions our own child should have. If anything ruins the magic of Christmas, that's it. Deciding how to present Santa is easy by comparison.


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## sunwillshine (Feb 18, 2009)

Our family has actually been pretty good so far about respecting our wishes about the quantity and type of toys to get for Cady. As a matter of fact, for her first birthday, we mentioned in the invite that she would appreciate gently loved hand-me-down and second-hand toys and books, and many people complied.

Plus, I have no qualms about donating brand new plastic nonsense to kids in need, either. 

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kitchensqueen*
> 
> Good luck - I hope your family cooperates. My son will only be three months old this Christmas, and we've been hearing for a month now about the avalanche of bright, plastic, huge, loud toys everyone intends to buy. We've told everyone we appreciate the generosity but that we don't have the space for it, and find many types of those toys inappropriate, and made suggestions about things we'd rather he get (that he'd actually use) and several people got downright angry about it. Apparently they think that we, as his parents, deserve no input whatsoever in the quantity and type of possessions our own child should have. If anything ruins the magic of Christmas, that's it. Deciding how to present Santa is easy by comparison.


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## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lyndzies*
> 
> Our family has actually been pretty good so far about respecting our wishes about the quantity and type of toys to get for Cady. As a matter of fact, for her first birthday, we mentioned in the invite that she would appreciate gently loved hand-me-down and second-hand toys and books, and many people complied.
> 
> Plus, I have no qualms about donating brand new plastic nonsense to kids in need, either.


That's good! I'm kind of jealous.  I've got no qualms about donating stuff either. We'll see how this year shapes up!


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## sunwillshine (Feb 18, 2009)

Good luck! Stay strong! But also, choose your battles. Lol. That's the only way I've survived the first year with my MIL. ;-)

Now the amount of CLOTHES she gets my daughter... that's a whole 'nother thread!!!!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kitchensqueen*
> 
> That's good! I'm kind of jealous.  I've got no qualms about donating stuff either. We'll see how this year shapes up!


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## mudhugger (May 29, 2009)

This thread has really made me think! DS is only 2, so I don't think we have to have this figured out yet, but I love all of the ideas and traditions people have shared.

My father is a devout atheist







who LOVES christmas-- so we had the santa story, played up with sooty footprints and all. But the thing I realize, is that after my siblings and I found out the myth, we still had the most amazing holidays. I think because my parents were SO ENTHUSIASTIC... lol! For us the magic and mystic qualities of christmas were all held in my folks' ability to be kids with us. We never had a lot of gifts, but we had our favourite food traditions, and staying up late traditions, and making cookies, and telling stories, and crazy silliness like trying to put on all the the clothes gramma gave us at once (!) ...My dad would make us all shower and dress and eat breakfast and brush our teeth, etc, before we were allowed to see our stockings or the tree on xmas morning-- that anticipation was so much fun! And he made it awesome because he was just as excited as we were-- and for no reason other than fun.

There's this great book--The Real St. Nicholas: Tales of Generosity and Hope from around the World-- that I hope to incorporate into our holiday traditions, and I also hope I can recreate the fun and enthusiasm my parents gave to us... I guess, what I'm coming away from all this with, is that it doesn't really matter how I choose to present the holiday to our kids as long as I fully, completely feel the spirit of it. For our family, that's in giving and loving and being crazy.

I was feeling confused before, I'm now really excited-- Thanks everyone!


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## Imakcerka (Jul 26, 2011)

One thing I find interesting about the use of Santa is that some people use him in the hopes of garnering good behavior from their kids. A friend of ours does this with his son and it really annoys me. It's like leave the magic alone and just let him have it. If you can't find any other way to control your kid you're in need of some help! My girls asked if Santa would really skip a house for bad behavior and I told them that Santa would never make anyone feel bad on purpose. I really like the idea of Santa, I never really had good Christmases. My parents were always fighting and when they divorced it was all about them and it was frustrating. My sister and I talk about it every once in awhile and we both feel that we were cheated out of the magic. It wasn't about presents it was about feeling hopeful and having a calm relaxing holiday without the drama and Christmas is really about the kids anyway. Just giving them some hope and magic when all around there is none.


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## AnnaBees Mama (Jul 9, 2011)

I was one of those kids who took the Santa thing very seriously. I was the kid who waited up in bed as late as I could, staring out my window, hoping to to hear the reindeer hooves on the roof. I was the kid whose imagination flew away with the knowledge that a fat and an onslaught of elves lived up in the North Pole. I was the kid who LOVED that this kind of magic 'existed', who daydreamed for weeks on end prior to Christmas. I wrote the letters. I set out the cookies.

My mom didn't necessarily encourage us, but she handled everything with "what do you think", which really, was quite frustrating and too ambiguous for me. I assumed my mom would let me know if it was all a lie. As an adult, I found out my mom really didn't care for the whole santa thing, and thought saying "what do you think" was a nice middle ground between believing and not. :-( But she did play along with it, so in the end, it didn't matter.

Then one year--- I think I was 9 or 10--- I realized I had been fooled. Nothing in particular happened, it's just that my pre-adolescent brain finally allowed me to put all the pieces together and come to the logical conclusion. It was a terrible, glum Christmas. I felt like my reality had shifted, that I had grown up practically overnight, that I had lost my childhood in that instant. That Christmas, and several Christmases after, no longer 'felt' magical. I missed believing. I was angry that I was lied to.

We don't do Santa in our household. It has little to do with my reaction when finding out, though my reaction did compel me to stop and analyze the tradition once I was older. I think if I didn't react so negatively to finding out the truth, I would be more likely to go with it.

The idea of feeding my child an untruth so I that I can get my kicks and giggles watching them 'believe' does not sit right with me. It is deliberately lying to them. We as adults are burdened with endless responsibilities, hurts, and a lot of truths about this world that are plain ugly. I don't know about you, but as an adult, I totally miss my childhood. I miss the simplicity, the optimism, the magic. I think parents tend to 'relive' their childhood through their children, which is all well and good until... it's no longer about the children. IMO, from what I've seen, the Santa thing is about the parents more than the kids. It about, as an adult, reliving that magic, joy, and imagination of childhood by seeing it on your kids' faces. Of course the kids enjoy it--- it is exciting, they get presents, and it's fun thinking this guy and all of his accoutrements actually exist. But they have the tools to enjoy their childhood without the belief. There is a price to pay for them: not necessarily in their reactions when they find out, because that could go either way... they pay with their perception of reality. I spent the majority of my childhood living in a reality where the Easter Bunny comes into your house and leaves you candy in a basket, where the Tooth Fairy takes my sleeping head and moves it to lay money under my pillow, and where Santa Claus is watching my every move and comes through my lit fireplace to fill my stocking. It took my time to undo all of that, to process my emotions, and see the world through a clear lens. It's wasted time, it's wasted emotions, when all that time I could've become acquainted with what is known to be real. The world looked so dim and dull after I found out. It took me a long LONG time to appreciate the real magic. I wish I had that opportunity when I was a child.

I think Santa has nothing to do with hanging onto childhood, or preserving a child's innocence. That can be done without Santa. In fact, I would argue that a belief in Santa could potentially take away that innocence prematurely. That happened to me. If the Santa thing had not been a part of my childhood, my imaginative and creative childhood would have played out naturally at its own pace, I would not have felt my childhood slip away overnight due to a stark realization that I had believed a lie.

We are going to be all about 'pretending' to be Santa. The tradition itself is a lovely way to remind ourselves about St. Nicholas, and his generosity. It is fun, and 'imagining' that this is real is fun too.


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## Everrgreen (Feb 27, 2007)

I completely believed in Santa as a child and I have the most wonderful memories of truly believing in that magic. Yeah it was disappointing when I found out the truth. But I'm so glad to have those magical memories. It is fun to remember how that felt and still gets me excited just remembering how it felt. So I will do Santa with my son. I'm sure Christmas can be exciting without Santa but it was just a lot of fun for me and I want that for my son. I'm not going to go crazy about and spin elaborate tales. My son is turning 3 in January so this is the first year he's excited about Christmas. I've told him that Santa is going to bring him a present and fill his stocking at Christmas. I don't know if he really gets it yet. If he ever asks me out right then I will be honest but until then we will have fun and enjoy the magic.


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## carmel23 (Jul 21, 2006)

We celebrate St. Nicholas' feast day on Dec 6--the children put their shoes out, and St. Nicholas delivers chocolates and other small goodies. They also include their letter to the Christ Child with their requests for Christmas gifts... St. Nicholas takes the letter to the Christ Child, who gives the gifts on Christmas (since it is his birthday).

Believing in things that are cultural, or legendary is not lying to a child. We talk about atoms and quirks, or distant planets for that matter, but can any of us actually see them? Does that mean we are lying?


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## AnnaBees Mama (Jul 9, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *carmel23*
> We talk about atoms and quirks, or distant planets for that matter, but can any of us actually see them? Does that mean we are lying?


.... Except we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Santa Claus- the guy at the north pole with the elves--- does NOT physically exist. I don't know any adult who would argue with that.

On the other hand, the micro physical elements you mentioned are studied profusely, with it's theories generally accepted among the scientific community.

It is lying to tell someone that something physically exists when it doesn't.

It is not lying to say something exists when you have good reason to believe it really does.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *carmel23* 


> Believing in things that are cultural, or legendary is not lying to a child. We talk about atoms and quirks, or distant planets for that matter, but can any of us actually see them? Does that mean we are lying?


I do Santa, but this line of thinking makes my head hurt. (My mom says it, too, which boggles me, as she's the single most honest person I've ever known.) Yes - I'm lying when I tell my children that Santa will come after they go to bed, and bring them presents, and fill their stockings. I know full well that I'm the one doing those things. I know full well that a fat man in a red suit isn't coming down my chimney. I don't have a problem with doing Santa, or I wouldn't be doing it. But, I really don't get the idea that it's not lying. When one deliberately tells an untruth, one is lying. I'm deliberately telling my children untruths; therefore, I am lying. Why do people try to dodge this one?


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## kitchensqueen (Feb 20, 2006)

I kind of like to view Santa as just another fairy tale. Not a truth, but also not a lie. Somewhere in the grey area of make believe.


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## carmel23 (Jul 21, 2006)

*Annabee'smama:* Sure sub atomic particles are studied... but even a few months ago it was widely held that nothing traveled fast then the speed of light, and now we have two demonstrations of neutrinos doing just that. 

Do we not widely hold an idea that is later proved to be untrue? Does that mean Einstein was lying?

Do we know what happens to a person when they die? Can we actively disprove the communion of saints?

When you child is playing toy kitchen, or pretending to be something do you say, "You're not really cooking!" or "you're not really a tiger!" and if you play along, are you lying to them?!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kitchensqueen*
> 
> I kind of like to view Santa as just another fairy tale. Not a truth, but also not a lie. Somewhere in the grey area of make believe.


*Yes.*
We can't physically prove that love and devotion exist.

It's like Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus:

Quote:


> Yes, VIRGINIA, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus. It would be as dreary as if there were no VIRGINIAS. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Storm Bride*
> 
> I do Santa, but this line of thinking makes my head hurt. (My mom says it, too, which boggles me, as she's the single most honest person I've ever known.) Yes - I'm lying when I tell my children that Santa will come after they go to bed, and bring them presents, and fill their stockings. I know full well that I'm the one doing those things. I know full well that a fat man in a red suit isn't coming down my chimney. I don't have a problem with doing Santa, or I wouldn't be doing it. But, I really don't get the idea that it's not lying. When one deliberately tells an untruth, one is lying. I'm deliberately telling my children untruths; therefore, I am lying. Why do people try to dodge this one?


But now do you actually sit your kids down and say, tonight a fat man will come down the chimney and give you presents? Or is it more inferred from shared cultural experiences? I have never sat my kids down and said, "DO this tonight, because this is what happens" Our traditions have evolved with a little bit of imagination, and bit of shared cultural experience--and our historical faith and traditions shared.

Do you sit your kids down when they are reading a fairy tale, or a novel and say, "this is not a real story, it is a lie?" Give them more credit! My kids actively discuss with their friends (even my 4 year old) Santa and what they believe. Some of my kids' friends don't celebrate santa. Do my kids feel like they've been deceived because we celebrate St. Nicholas' feast day? Of course not.

My kids don't literally believe that Santa Claus exists, we don't even celebrate the Cocoa Cola Santa, but share this :http://www.stnicholascenter.org/pages/real-santa/

My kids know that I put the presents out at night, and the chocolates in their shoes. But they still play the game and will say, "We like it when Santa leaves our presents unwrapped" (because then they don't have to wait for DH and I to get up in the morning. )

When we read the hobbit and talk about hobbits or fairies am I lying to my child? Or do imaginary things--that are bigger then us--have a kind of existence that is not physically perceived? (Interestingly Duns Scotus, medieval philosopher, had interesting theories that assert exactly that. modern semiotics also shares this notion. Fiction, poetry, abstract art also touches on this as well).

Edit to add:

I wonder if the "shock" of Santa not being real has to do with where the emphasis is placed... like when I was a kid, St. Nicholas was more of a spiritual holiday, and not about "getting stuff." But then, we celebrated St. Nicholas day on Dec. 6th... and Christmas really had nothing to do with Santa, or with Presents, for that matter. It was about staying up late for midnight mass, and eating a lot of good food, seeing relative we didn't see that often. Sure, we got presents, too! But they weren't like piles and piles of stuff... and that certainly wasn't the focus of Christmas for us at all.

In fact, Christmas as a secular holiday doesn't make any sense at all... and I do see how elves and the north pole would be confusing if it is a purely consumerist celebration of material wealth. I think that is a bigger lie to a child then the various incarnations of the Santa Myth, or St. Nicholas leaving some chocolates in our shoes...


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *carmel23*
> 
> But now do you actually sit your kids down and say, tonight a fat man will come down the chimney and give you presents? Or is it more inferred from shared cultural experiences? I have never sat my kids down and said, "DO this tonight, because this is what happens" Our traditions have evolved with a little bit of imagination, and bit of shared cultural experience--and our historical faith and traditions shared.
> 
> ...


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## purslaine (Feb 20, 2006)

I have not read this whole thread (will in time) but here is my pro/con list:

pro:

it is magical

it is cultural

it is fun for kids and parents

I think you can get still keep Christmas magical and fun without Santa - but cultural is a hard one. Santa is a big deal for most kids in many places. They might feel left out. I also do not trust young kids to not let onto their friends that Santa isn't real. Maybe your kids are more evolved than mine, but I suspect strongly my kids would have let the secret out of the bag.

cons:

Your child might be one of the few who (a recent poll on well trained mind had it at about 10-15%) felt betrayed by their parents when they found out Santa was not real. I think not lying over and over again about Santa when asked may lessen the likelihood of feeling betrayed.

If you are devote Christian it may go against what you believe or want to emphasize.

In general, I do think those that do Santa should only give one gift or so from Santa (certainly as the kids age) It avoids comparisons, they have to thank real people (their parents!) for their gifts, and it might help with the transition to no Santa. I wish everyone would only give one gift or so from Santa- it might help those kids who only get one small gift from Santa not feel slighted by the jolly elf when their wealthier friend gets oodles from Santa. Sadly, I am not queen of the world.

We do Santa. No regrets and no one in my family or extended has felt betrayed by the whole thing as far as I know.

edited to add: of course I am lying to my kids if I say Santa brought the gift or when I write Santa on a gift tag. _I don't care _







The intent is all positive, and I think my kids appreciate it.


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## carmel23 (Jul 21, 2006)

*Storm Bride,* I totally see what you mean. You're honestly with yourself is very impressive! I don't like the cocoa cola santa and have trouble with that, too. I would feel like that is a betrayal, or would feel awkward. I like how honest you are with yourself!

Of course I don't tell my kids that hobbits are real factual beings, but there is a suspension of disbelief. If I read the story to a child young enough (many kids under 7?) There wouldn't be that distinction though. There isn't a developed notion of fiction vs. nonfiction, and fictional stories must resonate as true on some level.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Just thought this was relevant and an interesting way to handle the whole santa thing...

http://www.cozi.com/live-simply/truth-about-santa


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## neonalee (Nov 20, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> Just thought this was relevant and an interesting way to handle the whole santa thing...
> 
> http://www.cozi.com/live-simply/truth-about-santa


Thank you for sharing that. We went through the trauma (and I do mean trauma; she was absolutely devastated) of my dsd learning the truth last year, at 12. I think I will show her dad this & see if he wants to pass it to her. I think it's a great articulation of how I feel. I really dislike lies but see good & importance in Santa ad well.

sent from my phone using tapatalk, please forgive typos


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