# CPS veiw on spanking?



## leahr (May 15, 2005)

don't know if this is the place to post this but DP sisters live with their aunt and they are spanked.and it really bothers me i was wondering if reporting it would even do any good. or if cps dosn't care much about that kind of thing


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## angelpie545 (Feb 23, 2005)

You know, one of my close friends had CPS called on her- and they actually TOLD her that she could spank her son!







No try other things first, just well, you can spank him, you just can't leave any marks.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

My general understanding is that CPS is a county wide service, at least here in NC. Each county has it's own criteria for abuse and neglect. The traditional model is that any striking that leaves redness, or any other mark for a duration greater than or equal to 24 hours is considered 'over the line'. (In NC, this standard does not apply for school administration wielding corporal punishment.....don't get me started!) For some counties, hitting the face, using hot sauce, using excessive excersise or excessive heat or cold, or withholding food as punishment is specifically identified as 'over the line'. Also, some implements are specified in some counties, such as 'a belt' and may be identified as an improper tool of punishment in some counties. The degree of specificity seems to vary by county locally. The age of being left without supervision as 'neglect', or not, varies by county too.

So, the 'whole picture' is relevant. Oh, another thing is if the child initiates leaving a home environment due to excessive physical punishment, this seems to hold in the child's favor. Same if they initiate emanipation before a very young age of 12, in one county, I saw.

Anyway, depending upon the child's age and the degree of force used, corporal punishment is culturally sanctioned and even specified as a legally protected 'parental authority' in some counties. Btw, spanking means striking with an open hand. And corporal punishment specifically means striking with an implement. And hitting children *with implements* is quite legal in every state of the US.









I'd suggest just googling the county in which they live and "child protective services" and you will be able to get a lot of the specifics on-line. And there is CPS contact phone number provided where you could call and ask questions anonymously. I will find and post a link to the CPS thread that was posted here recently. It has a lot of food for thought regarding the dangers (for the children) of reporting caregivers. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...&highlight=cps

I would suggest offering information from the 'Anti-Spanking' sticky/link at the top of this forum. See Naomi Aldort, Jan Hunt, Dr. Sears and others for authoritative documentation (brief articles) that you might share with them "that you ran across". Also, see www.NoSpank.net for an informative and free booklet "Plain Talk about Spanking". It is powerfully convincing and 'authoritative' research and documentation. But it is short with practical and poignant points. They won't like it; but it isn't something that one can really 'disagree' with because it quotes child psychologists, etc.

Pat


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## freestyler (Jan 28, 2005)

I just get sick to my stomach when I think about people hitting children---and with implements, no less???!!??? How can people do it? It makes my heart weep, I'm not kidding. i can't even think about it. Little 3 and 4 year olds that soil their pants, and some bastard beats them....god what kind of a world, what kind of a country perpetuates this barbarism.


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## Rivka5 (Jul 13, 2005)

As others have said, spanking usually doesn't fall within state guidelines for child abuse if it doesn't cause tissue damage (bruises, lasting redness). Striking a child on the face, hitting with an object, or anything causing tissue damage or potential injury is more likely to get classified as abuse.

It's a gray area, though. CPS-approved parenting classes teach that parents should never spank. A parent who has had CPS involvement in the past might get in trouble for continuing to spank. I think that most CPS workers do not approve of spanking, but recognize that 85% of American parents have spanked at some time and that they can't intervene with them all.

I would ask what you hope or imagine would happen if you call CPS. What is the likelihood that the children will actually wind up better off? Do they seem to be suffering obvious physical or emotional harm? Do they appear to be attached to their parents? Keep in mind that CPS involvement, especially if it results in removing the children from their home, is likely to be extremely stressful for the whole family.

There are certainly many cases in which removal is still justified because of danger to the children, but I doubt that spanking as it is usually practiced falls in that category.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
And hitting children *with implements* is quite legal in every state of the US.









This is taken from the Washoe County Department of Social Services website's FAQ's section:

_Reasonable discipline is not considered abuse or neglect. In determining what is reasonable, the following factors must be considered:

· The child's age;
· The child's physical or psychological conditions or disabilities;
· The frequency and duration of the discipline;
· The location of the physical discipline (buttocks vs. face); and
· The use of an instrument (belt, cord, whip etc.).

Nevada law allows a parent or guardian to "spank" a child as a form of discipline, but an injury cannot be left on a child._

I think it implies that use of an instrument will most likely be considered abusive, don't you? But we are supposedly pretty progressive. That has been the case in the abuse cases I've been involved in, as well. And the pp was right, once my parents have been involved with CPS, they're expected to not spank anymore. There's often a family therapist assigned to help them learn different disciplinary tactics (which usually involve point systems, bribes, removal of priveleges, etc., but still, better than hitting).

You know, I just want to add that a far larger problem here in our county is neglect. Abuse cases are the minority, by far. Spanking vs. meth use, I'd take spanking any old day.


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## Bippity (Sep 12, 2003)

from Virginia - an interesting interview with a state CPS official:

http://www.vahomeschoolers.org/cps.html

Quote:

Common fears:
"I spank my child sometimes. Is that considered abuse?"
"Spanking is not child abuse," noted Schuster, who said that if he sees a stressed parent spank a child in public, he will "give the adult some ideas for things to do to reduce the stress while shopping."

If corporal punishment results in injuries, CPS will investigate. When a parent uses an object in corporal punishment, CPS makes "a more serious response." If a child is "reported as having a suspicious injury, the case would be investigated further," Schuster said. "We know some children are fair skinned and mark easily," so CPS takes that into account. However, the worker will observe whether "a child with marks is fearful of the parents."

During an investigation, CPS workers "might talk to the child, parents, and neighbors or relatives, as well as a doctor, if one is involved," Schuster said. "If the allegations involve some type of physical abuse, you may ask your doctor to examine your children" and then provide his or her statement instead of allowing a CPS worker to examine your child for injuries, he continued.


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## juju's mom (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angelpie545*
You know, one of my close friends had CPS called on her- and they actually TOLD her that she could spank her son!







No try other things first, just well, you can spank him, you just can't leave any marks.


emotional scars don't count because they don't see them!? How sad. The rules should change.


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## leahr (May 15, 2005)

nak
Thanks everyone I'm still on the fence about what to do. There are other factors in this situation that i'm not sure i want to get into. my goal is not to have the kids taken away and from my experince cps only does that in extreme situations. was wondering if it matters who does the spanking most of the time it isn't their aunt but her 23 yo son. and he gets some huge power trip off of it it is really sick. i can't offer them advice they get really touchy about it and i can't risk that they will decide we can't see the girls anymore(they have done it before).


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I think the fact that he is a non-parental unit would make a difference. He is their cousin?







And I don't know if it would make a difference if the aunt is present (and therefore accountable for protecting them) or if he were alone as the designated caregiver, but not their guardian. I would think it might be considered assault. But then, I think any child who is hit by an adult meets the definition of assault.
















Pat


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## oneotamama (Apr 23, 2004)

I just want to caution you on that if you do decide to file a report, don't tell a soul it was you. Some people may think this is "hiding" etc., in my experience cps isn't going to do much anyway. And it's not like you want the family all looking at YOU as the bad guy. I filed a report against my aunt about 8 years back. My mom knows but that's it. Unfortunately, the night of the incident (neglect) I took them home w/me. So I'd removed them from danger. Ugh. Then when cps came out to the house on Monday morning they called first. Duh. Gee, do you think my aunt had all the liquor bottles, glass and guns picked up then?!

I know how it'd work in my family though. Somehow it wouldn't be my aunt w/the problem, it'd be me. My family knows she does wrong, but they'd defend her if push came to shove.

Sorry to ramble. Just want you to think about protecting your own butt too. On the other hand, making a report at least established some background in case there happens to be more incidents later, yk?


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *leahr*
nak
Thanks everyone I'm still on the fence about what to do. There are other factors in this situation that i'm not sure i want to get into. my goal is not to have the kids taken away and from my experince cps only does that in extreme situations. was wondering if it matters who does the spanking most of the time it isn't their aunt but her 23 yo son. and he gets some huge power trip off of it it is really sick. i can't offer them advice they get really touchy about it and i can't risk that they will decide we can't see the girls anymore(they have done it before).

I've been trying to get back to this all day because your post sent off about a million warning bells in my head! I'm usually not one to advocate for calling CPS, unless it seems like there might be sexual abuse going on. Do you think that's what's happening? The two things you just told me about him getting off on spanking them and them not letting you see the children is just really alarming to me. If you have any suspicion that your cousin is molesting those girls, please do call CPS and tell them of your suspicion.


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## Sharlla (Jul 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *angelpie545*
You know, one of my close friends had CPS called on her- and they actually TOLD her that she could spank her son!







No try other things first, just well, you can spank him, you just can't leave any marks.

That was what I was told in Oregon.


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## leahr (May 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
I've been trying to get back to this all day because your post sent off about a million warning bells in my head! I'm usually not one to advocate for calling CPS, unless it seems like there might be sexual abuse going on. Do you think that's what's happening? The two things you just told me about him getting off on spanking them and them not letting you see the children is just really alarming to me. If you have any suspicion that your cousin is molesting those girls, please do call CPS and tell them of your suspicion.

I really don't think sexual abuse is what is going on i think he just likes to feel like he has power over everyone. which is why we havn't been able to see the girls some times. we say somthing he dosn't like and we don't get to see the girls for awhile. he likes to think he is head of the family and can boss every one around(including me). I would have told him a thing or two by now if it wasn't for the girls. as it stands i have to kiss his butt all the time. DP and I have thought about looking into getting visitation rights but i don't know if they let siblings do that sort of thing. and it might make the whole situation worse.


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## Llyra (Jan 16, 2005)

We had CPS (It's called DYFS here in Jersey) come to the school where I worked here in NJ and give a briefing on this, since so many of our students were spanked at home. They told us that their definition of acceptable punishment, in that county, was an open hand on a clothed behind.

On the other hand, they told us that generally anything that didn't leave marks or cause injury, would probably not be followed up on.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Ok, I don't fully understand, of course. But, are the girls old enough to explain what is happening and why not seek custody if the mother (??) is agreeable for her son (and you) to care for the girls, if agreeable to all? My point is what is the girls' say in this? And how does this guy have any say at all? Something isn't making sense.

Pat


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## leahr (May 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
Ok, I don't fully understand, of course. But, are the girls old enough to explain what is happening and why not seek custody if the mother (??) is agreeable for her son (and you) to care for the girls, if agreeable to all? My point is what is the girls' say in this? And how does this guy have any say at all? Something isn't making sense.

Pat

the girls are old enough to explain but i don't think they would to any authorities. The mother is a drunk and a drug addict so her being agreeable has no bearing on the situation. we could try to get custody but i don't think we would get it and after we try their aunt most likly wouldn't let us see the girls anymore. we are pretty low income she isn't. and she has a degree in early childhood education. so as far as the courts go i think they would think she can provide the best home for them. the problem is that she works all the time and the girls are left with her son. so he decides who they can visit and he will lie about us to her if we go directly to her and ask to see the girls. don't get me wrong we do get to see them most of the time just every once in a while we say something he dosn't like so he won't let us see them for a couple of weeks. the situation is complicated.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *juju's mom*
emotional scars don't count because they don't see them!? How sad. The rules should change.









I know someone who is currently being investigated/receiving intervention from our equivalent of CPS. The worker who is seeing her family has her banishing her children to the "naughty stair" when they misbehave. This worker also advised me to take away ds1's clothes and make him "earn" them back when he leaves them on the floor - and didn't take back that unasked for advice, even after I told her that the clothes in question are his winter jacket and his boots.

So...she doesn't spank them or yell at them (when the worker is around, at least) - she just sends them into coventry, instead. She seems to believe that it's acceptable to have a 10-year-old (this woman's oldest) go to school in the winter without a jacket because he didn't do what he was told. I don't think she's qualified to address emotional scars. When I was a child, I had one adult in my life who spanked me (occasionally) and one who sent me to coventry, and it wasn't the spanking that left emotional scars.

I wouldn't report someone to CPS until I believed the children's lives were in danger. I've seen them intervene in two families in my life. I was very close to both situation. And, both times, the families in question were far more screwed up and dysfunctional _after_ the power-tripping social workers at CPS got involved.


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## alicia622 (May 8, 2005)

As far as I know, spanking is not going to spark an investigation. Having said that using any sort of physical discipline is a major NO-NO for foster kids. Of course, we all no it **** happens, but at least the expectation in Maine is that foster children will not be hurt.


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## PajamaMama (Dec 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Rivka5*
I would ask what you hope or imagine would happen if you call CPS. What is the likelihood that the children will actually wind up better off?

Keep in mind that CPS involvement, especially if it results in removing the children from their home, is likely to be extremely stressful for the whole family.

There are certainly many cases in which removal is still justified because of danger to the children, but I doubt that spanking as it is usually practiced falls in that category.









:

I am against spanking but I am MORE against wanton breaking up of families.


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## leahr (May 15, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PajamaMama*







:

I am against spanking but I am MORE against wanton breaking up of families.

Ive already stated that breaking up the family is not my goal. And that is not what happens in most cases i want someon to tell them that it is wrong to spank a child for any reason. and to give them better ways to deal with the situations. in my mind this is somthing cps should be able to do


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## PajamaMama (Dec 18, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *leahr*
Ive already stated that breaking up the family is not my goal. And that is not what happens in most cases i want someon to tell them that it is wrong to spank a child for any reason. and to give them better ways to deal with the situations. in my mind this is somthing cps should be able to do


In a perfect world maybe cps would just be able to tell a family that spanking is not the right way to teach a child to do anything but hit...but we do not live in a perfect world. So to answer your op, I do not think cps would do anything about spankers. If you report them for spanking you will either tell your family that you reported them, and deal with the consequences that will bring, or you will pretend it wasn't you and be able to sanctimoniously say "but I *did* tell you so!"

It seems to me after reading your subsequent posts that there are other issues within the family, and without knowing everything it is hard on a message board to offer help that is worth anything. So instead I will just offer you my fervent wish that your family finds peace. I truly hope that cps does not become involved. It will not make things any better than they are now...the girls may have a crappy home life but they also obviously have people in their lives who care about them and love them. If they are removed from the family that could all change...they could have a crappy, strange and frightening home life with no one around at all to love them.*

(*I know many foster families are great, but there are some that are not too, and some that are truly abysmal. So please don't start a flame fest about that SEPARATE issue, thanks)


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