# December 2012 Rockstar Mamas



## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Welcome to the Rockstar Mamas thread! Our wonderful group of mamas started following each other in the Charting to Avoid thread over in fertility. Eventually we created "The Whatever Ladies!", a safe place for those of us who were not trying to prevent pregnancy, though not actively trying to conceive either. Spread out over a year, we all got pregnant and had our current babes- several whom are over a year old now!

We made the decision to switch to Rockstar Mamas, after a conversation about how each and every one of us was a Rockstar in some way, for living and thriving through the parenting challenges thrown our way every day. Feel free to join us in our thread, but be warned, the conversation moves fast!

Not really rules but something to consider if you join:

1. Need to be chatty

2. Know that we are all vastly different from one another but we've become friends so we respect those differences. We are vaxers and nonvaxers; homeschoolers, unschoolers, public schoolers; run the gamut from vegan to paleo; some of us want more kids, some don't, and some aren't sure...but we all manage to really get along and come together on things we DO agree on.

3. Aren't afraid to ask each other the hard questions or point out the obvious when/if we want advice!

Member List:

lyeterae ~ Baby boy born February 2011
annie ~ Baby girl born April 7, 2011
Barefootscientist ~ Baby boy born May 30, 2011
AnnieA (due 7/18) ~ Baby girl born July 17, 2011
MarineWife (due 7/30) ~ Baby boy born July 25, 2011
Baby_Cakes (due 8/16) ~ Baby boy born August 16, 2011
MovingMomma (due 8/9) ~ Baby girl born August 18, 2011
akind1 (due 9/28) ~ Baby girl born October 11, 2011
mom2one (due 10/23) ~ Baby boy born October 21, 2011
jeninejessica (due 12/01) ~ Baby girl born November 29, 2011
Kindermama (due 1/6) ~ Baby boy born January 1, 2012
Euromama

akind1 going around again ~ Baby BOY!! due 3/6/2013 but betting on 3/11 or 3/19

November thread: http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1367758/november-2012-rockstar-mamas


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

Lauri-- wow what an appt!! I can see how even just the appt would be stressful, without even the added worry of the results!

Me- four days of dry up sounds good!

Tenleys party today!! Tomorrow life returns to normal and ill have a bit of spare time again! The house looks good. She thinks the streamers and balloons are the greatest things ever.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

I'm so glad you're doing a party! Ava's favorite part of her birthday party was all the balloons I blew up for her to play with!

Yes, MW, you can consider yourself safe after 4 dry days following fertile CF.


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

The party went great, as far as us hosting went. I feel like we threw a great party, though there were some doozies from the party guests which ill have to tell you all about later. The best one being told my nieces and nephews couldn't play in tr basement since drywall dust contains gluten....

But yes, wet well. We have soooo much food left!! Like 24/30 cupcakes left, and 25 cake pops! She got some great gifts, and nothing really stupid. And amazingly, the house is still pretty clean so now today feels like a "free" day, and were trying to decide what to do as a family. Maybe well e crazy and go shopping.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

JJ ~ Glad you had a party and it went well.

I am now as sure as I can be without temps that I actually Oed. O on cd28 isn't too bad for me. I don't need to worry about whether or not I'm safe because there's no way any hanky panky is going to happen. My cramps are getting bad. I had to take ibuprofen so I could sleep last night.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

MW: yay for o! but ugh on cramps. that just sucks.

JJ: glad you had a party and it went well! We also had a ton of food left over from Norah's party, oh well. The thing is, people brought food, and they want to leave it! and dude, take it home with you! oh well. And hooray for great presents.

Annie/Lauri - hope the appt goes well, that sounds like a stress bomb.

AFU: Saturday parade was not very fun Gabe enjoyed playing with the other kids more than watching the parade. Then spent the rest of the day with the ILs. meh. Sunday, church, cleaned out, including steaming the carpets, the car. it looks and smells so much better. then a night parade that my parents ride in, Gabe loved it. Norah was tired and cranky (she mostly slept through the parade saturday too) . This week isn't very exciting - should be getting in christmas presents to wrap. that's something. Next weekend is a wedding. I think the weekend after that is a "free" weekend, but in actuality will likely have birthday party that weekend, and I know there is one the week after, and then it's Christmas! Need to figure out when we are doing the lights at the zoo. I love the business of the season, but it's tiring too. Still better than being stuck at home all the time.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Oh it's been a bit crazy but I've been reading along!

Still not sure I o'ed. I stopped temping b/c it was making me insane and not telling me much. Counting days and watching cm. Still abundant and watery which for me is still potentially fertile. MW - cramps are no good! Will you take anything? I always take advil. I can't deal with them.

Kat - I'm with you! Love the business but man is it hectic!

They do this thing close to me in warren NJ where this guy times his lights to music on a radio station. You drive up and park and tune your radio and you watch the lights show. We are doing that one night for sure!!!

http://njmonthly.com/articles/lifestyle/where-lights-dance-to-the-music.html

https://www.facebook.com/ChristmasInWarren

Finn had a puke-athon yesterday out of nowhere. I feel like tired and achey and chris has a headache. Nora had a stomachache Sat night but we thought it was from too many cookies. So we are probably all fighting it -- poor Finn got hit the hardest! Puking for 7 hours! No fun. But he seems ok now, just HUNGRY.

JJ - Yay I'm so glad you guys had a party! How was R thru it? Did he seem glad you all did it after wards? I can't wait to see pictures! I'm sure Ten had a blast!

I'm going to try to find time to order gifts today. I have a bunch picked out on a wish list on amazon for the kids. I bought Chris some beer glasses and whiskey stones so he's done. Need to get stuff for the inlaws -- no ideas even. I usually do a gift card or wine or whiskey but I feel like picking out something special from the kids for grandma/grandpa.


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

JJ- I am glad the party went well!!! 

Stress is high here at the moment.

On Wednesday we're going over to great-grandma's house to tell her she has to leave the only home she has known for years and years.

Her memory is getting really bad and she forgot where she was the other day.

I offered to take her in here and take care of her, but my MIL is being a PITA about it. I took care of great-grandma when she broke her hip for a month here so I do know what all I will have on my plate.

I come from a family where you don't just put someone in a home. We take care of our family. I guess not everyone lives like that, and that is ok I just wished my MIL's reasons were sincere from the heart and not because she knows great-grandma is leaving a big sum of money behind for her and she just doesn't want to deal with her.

She NEVER ever goes over to great-grandma to just visit with her. Great-granma goes months and months without seeing her daughter.

When great-grandma is here, MIL barely talks to her and when she does she is so short with her,

Now, great-grandma can be a PITA, but what older person isn't?

She sure as heck knew where to find great-grandma when she needed money for her divorce lawyer. Hmmmmm!!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> MW - cramps are no good! Will you take anything? I always take advil. I can't deal with them.


I take ibuprofen when they get really bad. I guess I've still got it stuck in my head that it's bad to take ibuprofen a lot because it can delay O. I learned that while TTC the first time. I was actually wondering the other day how I could get some stronger pain killers.







I know people who get prescription meds for their cramps.

That light and music show sounds cool.

EM ~ A lot of people are like that, I guess. I talk to my dad periodically about coming to live with me when he can't live with himself. He refuses to even discuss it. He doesn't want to burden me. When my grandmother was told she needed to move into a nursing home but didn't want to, I told her she could come live with me. She refused, too. I think that side of my family is just very disconnected. Either that or there's something wrong with me that I don't know about.









DH and I got in a huge fight last night. I made him sleep in a different room. I don't know what I'll do if he doesn't apologize.

On that note, the book I mentioned before is _The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work_, by John Gottman, http://www.gottman.com/49862/558737/DVD-Workshop-Books--Lectures/Seven-Principles-for-Making-Marriage-Work.html.


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> I take ibuprofen when they get really bad. I guess I've still got it stuck in my head that it's bad to take ibuprofen a lot because it can delay O. I learned that while TTC the first time. I was actually wondering the other day how I could get some stronger pain killers.
> 
> ...


MW - I am so sorry you got into a big fight.  I hope he apologizes for whatever it is he needs to apologize for! HUGS!!!!

I may have to read that book out of curiosity. Hubby and I don't really fight, we do get snippy with eachother though. lol


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> DH and I got in a huge fight last night. I made him sleep in a different room. I don't know what I'll do if he doesn't apologize.










SUCKS.

Does your mind ever go to that place where you think about logically what divorce would entail? I go there sometimes. Scares me.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> I take ibuprofen when they get really bad. I guess I've still got it stuck in my head that it's bad to take ibuprofen a lot because it can delay O. I learned that while TTC the first time. I was actually wondering the other day how I could get some stronger pain killers.
> 
> ...


I have a prescription for a narcotic pain reliever for my cramps. It's bad.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry for everyone having relationship trouble. It stinks.

No one asked but here's my take on divorce after watching DH deal with his ex for the past 7 years. Short of physical abuse or homicide, I can't really come up with a good enough reason to get a divorce. It may make you or DH feel better in the short-term, to be rid of the "offending" person and not have to deal with their crap on a day to day basis but here's the dirty little secret regarding divorce and kids. You will never be rid of your former spouse. EVER. If you have procreated with them, and you want to maintain a relationship with your kids, you will have to deal with that person until one of you dies. So for me, I feel like it's my job to put on my big-girl panties and suck it up. I'm a grownup and like I said before, short of physical abuse or homicide, I can put up with plenty and avoid putting my kids through the trauma of a divorce. And if the reasoning is that you don't like how your spouse parents, getting a divorce doesn't take your spouse away from the children. In fact, if they are having trouble parenting your kids, getting a divorce is going to add to the stress making them even "worse" parents.

AFM, Ava hid my car keys this morning so we were stuck at home. I kept asking her where they were and she would point vaguely in the direction of her toys, mumble something and then go get in her kitchen cabinet.







DH was the last one to have them so I was convinced he had lost them. He came home while we were taking a nap and found them somewhere in her toys. Little monkey!


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> No one asked but here's my take on divorce after watching DH deal with his ex for the past 7 years. Short of physical abuse or homicide, I can't really come up with a good enough reason to get a divorce. It may make you or DH feel better in the short-term, to be rid of the "offending" person and not have to deal with their crap on a day to day basis but here's the dirty little secret regarding divorce and kids. You will never be rid of your former spouse. EVER. If you have procreated with them, and you want to maintain a relationship with your kids, you will have to deal with that person until one of you dies. So for me, I feel like it's my job to put on my big-girl panties and suck it up. I'm a grownup and like I said before, short of physical abuse or homicide, I can put up with plenty and avoid putting my kids through the trauma of a divorce. And if the reasoning is that you don't like how your spouse parents, getting a divorce doesn't take your spouse away from the children. In fact, if they are having trouble parenting your kids, getting a divorce is going to add to the stress making them even "worse" parents.


Sigh. You're 100% right. The logistics and the trauma to the kids. And then the thought of someone else (should DH remarry) taking care of the kids. I shudder.

But sometimes I wonder if we both just deserve better. Deserve to be loved the way we both need to be loved. I wonder if it's possible for both of us to change, if we both even WANT to change. It's so complicated.

Sigh. We need help.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> No one asked but here's my take on divorce after watching DH deal with his ex for the past 7 years. Short of physical abuse or homicide, I can't really come up with a good enough reason to get a divorce. It may make you or DH feel better in the short-term, to be rid of the "offending" person and not have to deal with their crap on a day to day basis but here's the dirty little secret regarding divorce and kids. You will never be rid of your former spouse. EVER. If you have procreated with them, and you want to maintain a relationship with your kids, you will have to deal with that person until one of you dies. So for me, I feel like it's my job to put on my big-girl panties and suck it up. I'm a grownup and like I said before, short of physical abuse or homicide, I can put up with plenty and avoid putting my kids through the trauma of a divorce. And if the reasoning is that you don't like how your spouse parents, getting a divorce doesn't take your spouse away from the children. In fact, if they are having trouble parenting your kids, getting a divorce is going to add to the stress making them even "worse" parents


This is all so true. I had to live through the divorce of my parents. It was horrible and they were relatively civil. There was no crazy fighting or meanness. I still felt like it was my fault and in the middle. As a child, that is a very bad thing.

Yes, I do think of divorce, but when I do, I remember all of that and decide I need to work through whatever it is. DH does not abuse me or the kids. He's not a horrible person. He's not mean or strung out on drugs or crazy. He has his issues just like I have mine. We made a commitment to each other to live with and work through all of that together. Part of that means that I need to confront him directly when he thoroughly screws up.

The short of the story is that he got angry that I wanted an entire day off and threw a fit. He got very angry, screaming at me to get the fuck away from him while he was going to take Dylan to work late last night. I was not about to let him take Dylan anywhere when he was angry like that. He eventually gave Dylan back to me and went to another room and stayed there. I don't know why he lost it like that. It did really scare me. I was afraid for a second there that he was going to hit me but I couldn't back down because he had my baby. He checked himself and didn't do anything completely out of control.

I texted him today and told him that he needed to start talking to someone about his anger and passive/aggressiveness or else he'd end up in jail and alone and would lose his precious Marine Corps career. No response but he came home tonight with a book entitled, "Letting Go of Anger" or something like that. He still hasn't spoken to me about anything but he has made an obvious point of making sure I see him reading that book.

I'm thinking of calling the Chaplain tomorrow and asking him to talk to dh. I am thinking I could say that dh seems really stressed about work and is sort of grumpy and disconnected and out of sorts at home and maybe the Chaplain could talk to him. That way the Chaplain doesn't know any details. It all sounds very normal.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

When DH and I had first moved in with MIL she made comments - more than once - about how she hoped DH and I could make it through this financial storm we were going through. I looked and her, and said, HUH? At that point I had a small toddlr and a baby on the way, what in the world would leaving DH solve? the financial crap would be the same, if not worse, and besides, we love eacher and all that stuff. Not to mention, she and FIL have stayed married well beyond where they should. Could they work through their issues? sure. But neither of them want to, and they stopped wanting to, probably 15-20 years ago, if not more. They stayed together for DH - who though he had an "intact" family, still lived with the trauma of parents who are roomates and don't respect each other very much. we both hope that one day they will really separate and find separate happiness. Because, together, they're miserable.

Both my parents are children of divorce. It made my parents really want to work on their marriage and make it last.

In your case, MW - I'm glad you're trying to work on it/through it. It's a good sign that Sean is at least trying to go through the motions of doing something that might help, and a talk with the chaplain can't hurt.

You so deserve a whole day off! I hope you get it, and soon!

Annie/Lauri - Ava is such a ham! LOL

I didn't get much sleep last night - DH and I had to talk too, among other things. I am just a pregnant bundle of volatile emotions, and getting those under control is hard. I don't like being so emotional. Nothing really serious, just talking about how to make sure we are getting the connecting time in the bedroom we both want and need. Our communications just keep getting distorted and misread. Nothing says "I love you" like being told you look like a zombie after putting the kid to bed  I can't help that. I'd honestly go straight to bed, but I do want some grown up time, so I get my ice cream, my phone, and wake myself back up so I can get that. Need to find a way to get more sleep.

Carrie, JJ, EM, other Annie, and whoevr else I may be missing - hope you all are well!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I have never seen dh like that before. He totally lost it. I think Ryan was ready to jump in if he had to. He did take care of Dylan most of the day. I think he was frustrated because there were other things he wanted to do that he couldn't get done with Dylan at his feet.

He was such a laid back, happy-go-lucky person when we met. He goes on and on about all the things he "has" to do. I try talking to him about how he doesn't _have_ to do any of it. He doesn't have to cook dinner after working all day. We will find something to eat. He chooses to follow a special diet that requires him making special meals. He doesn't have to try to do all the repairs on the home himself. I would much rather pay someone else to do it so that we could have more time together. He refuses to see that he is choosing to make his life more difficult.

I know he is stressed about work but I'm really not sure why. He doesn't get stressed about being in a combat zone but he gets stressed about being in an office pushing papers all day?







He has to deal with a bunch stupid people, Marines getting DUIs and arrested for domestic violence, but I don't understand why that would stress him so much. It's not personal. He doesn't have any responsibility over what these people do on their free time. He has had to deal with a few deaths lately, the Marine killed on that parade float in Texas and then a Marine who was killed in a motorcycle accident. But, again, neither of those is personal since he didn't know either one, really. It seems that everyone at his work has a negative attitude and he has taken that on, too. I've talked to him about that, as well. Just because everyone else around him is negative doesn't mean he has to follow suit. He could make an effort to find and express the positive in whatever. That might even help change the feel of the entire office. He can't seem to grasp that concept, either.









Anyway, we talked a little last night. He did apologize without me really having to prompt him. He told me a little about what he read and learned from the book on anger. Hopefully, he'll continue. One thing I think he needs to learn to do is talk to me about whatever is going on, even just simply coming home and telling me what he did that day. He doesn't do that unless I press him and I have to go through a series of ridiculous questions before I finally get any real info out of him. I don't think he's purposely holding things back. I think he has shut himself down after being deployed so much and doesn't know how to have a normal conversation anymore.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

I'm glad you talked. it sounds productive, or at least a step in the right direction.

I know, after dealing with people on the phone (workin in the call center) that even though these people are not really at all involved with you, have nothing to do with you personally, that dealing with their life stresses does still take a toll on you at the end of the day. I am pretty good at leaving work at work (even though I work from home, haha) But for some people, having some physical act to disconnect from work before coming home helps - like taking shower, going for a run, hanging up an actual work "hat" or scarf or jacket - might help Sean. I think military stuff is hard, because even when you aren't deployed, it's not exactly a 9-5 job, you know? (I know you know) And I'm not really even saying cut him some slack, but more maybe he needs to work on finding something to help him separate work life from home life.

As for finding it hard to talk to him about his day - I think my mom gave up trying, LOL. I never really did understand what my dad did at work. I know his MOS (2810) but what does that translate to as far as how a day is filled up? and so much of what he did would have been greek to us anyway - it's electronics and telephone jargon that we don't care to understand anyway. Does talking about the stuff he deals with - the deals, the DUIs - help him decompress? does he need to get that out? or is it not really helpful?

The Paleo diet, cooking, taking on household tasks, does he enjoy any of that?

I am trying to be more level headed today. it's tough. I hate being an emotional wreck. doesn't really help knowing that I can't help it, its hormones. ugh.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

MW -- chris is very, incredibly similar! Especially with the work around the house. Our last "discussion" was basically him telling me he feels so stressed out b/c of all the work that needs to get done on the house. Quickly I made him itemize it. He rattled on about finishing putting up the fence, finishing the breezeway, tiling the kitchen, painting, etc. I said to him those are all things that need to get done, but if you don't want to do it, hire someone. Hire somebody to put up the fence. Hire someone to lay tile. I said the same thing you did - they can do it in one day, and then it's done. No more worrying/thinking/hemming/hawing, and we get to have you for that day. He'll never hire anyone, he wants to do it himself. But then you know how it'll be -- I'll have to take the kids out somewhere OR let Nora help. And he'll complain that he can't get anything done with Nora helping.

So what is the alternative? It never gets done and here we are, arguing about it again.

Just freaking hire somebody!

That's how I feel about cleaning the house. I can never get it really clean b/c I'd rather spend time playing with the kids or going outside with them. I really want to hire a cleaning service. Even if they came 2 X per month it would make a HUGE difference, I know it. We still keep going back and forth on that one, b/c I think we both feel weird about allowing someone else into our messy home.

Anyway.

Got some shopping today. SO many comments from people on wearing Finn on my back! A couple of odd looks from moms carrying buckets. I actually chatted with 2 about how much easier it is than having the bucket. I name dropped a couple of brands (Boba, Ergo) in hopes that maybe they'll go buy a carrier! LOL! Oh - my Target is selling Ergos now! I couldn't believe it!

Ok - gonna go grab food while I have a min! BBL!


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Carrie - I love the comments I get when wearing one of the kids (let alone both of them) - our babywearing group is finally part of babywearing international and we are on face book, and it's nice to have a group of people to point strangers to that can help trouble shoot, and we have the lending library too to let people try things out that can't be found in local stores. I think I need to stop using the SSC though, I think that's why my hips have been hurting so much. back to wrapping -which I love - I just have to admit the SSC is quicker.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

I'm eager to get out there with the babyhawk. It's like the best of both worlds, especially since I'm not a huge fan of wrapping. I love how it looks, I just don't have the patience myself past the newborn stage.

Something cool - my DDC is doing a Holiday Helper thing for mamas who don't have a ton this holiday season. I picked up some cute jammies for one of the families and am going to pick up a few more things to send to some others. I think it's wonderful to help families in need.

I think I might be done shopping for the kids! Hooray!

Oh - carseats. Nora has at least 2 inches until her ears are at the top of the seat. I checked the instruction manual and a bunch of sites online, and made her wiggle every which way so I could see how high her head is. She's good to go for a bit longer! Phew!


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Um, ok. Hi AF. Nice to see you on CD26. That's a new one. Good grief.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> So what is the alternative? It never gets done and here we are, arguing about it again.
> 
> ...


I've started getting estimates for things and may just start hiring people once we get past the holidays. I got a guy to give me an estimate on our fence. It's only about $190 to fix everything. Then I can take Dylan in the backyard and relax. He also said he could fix our backdoor where the wood has rotted and is falling apart for only $150. I think anything under $200 is worth it.

Does







showing line up with those temps at all?


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> But for some people, having some physical act to disconnect from work before coming home helps - like taking shower, going for a run, hanging up an actual work "hat" or scarf or jacket - might help Sean. I think military stuff is hard, because even when you aren't deployed, it's not exactly a 9-5 job, you know? (I know you know) And I'm not really even saying cut him some slack, but more maybe he needs to work on finding something to help him separate work life from home life.
> 
> ...


He works out every day. He takes time to change from his cammies to civilian clothes before coming home. He also usually stops at the commissary for stuff for dinner. I don't know if that counts as decompression time but it's something. I don't get any of that. I'm never off the clock and I rarely leave the office without my work in tow.

I don't know if talking about work helps him, either. He started talking about it a little but I don't get much details without the series of what I consider obvious and ridiculous questions. I really don't get why he can't tell me the whole story when I ask how his day was. He either tells me nothing or tells me every single little detail because he's annoyed that I want him to talk to me.

He says he likes to do household tasks. He likes to keep busy. He says he likes the Paleo diet. He says it has lowered his blood pressure. He prides himself on denying himself so he kind of sees doing the Paleo diet as a badge of honor or display of strength or will power or something like that.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> He works out every day. He takes time to change from his cammies to civilian clothes before coming home. He also usually stops at the commissary for stuff for dinner. I don't know if that counts as decompression time but it's something. I don't get any of that. I'm never off the clock and I rarely leave the office without my work in tow.


WORD! I totally think that stuff counts as time to decompress. My "decompression" time is either in the shower (the first in 3 days usually) when I"m still keeping an ear open for a kid, or MAYBE working out. But I'm rushing thru my workout b/c I can hear them crying or throwing a fit upstairs with DH!

I was supposed to go decompress on Sunday. I put Finn down for his nap and left, plannign to do food shopping then go read for a bit at panera. I barely got thru food shopping when DH texted me that finn was throwing up. I went straight home! Poor baby had a stomach virus -- 7 hours of puking. So much for that break!

MW - O doesn't match up at all with this CD1...it's maybe a 10 day LP? Not cool. Not when last month was 2 days longer than normal! WTF?


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

A 10 day lp is still within the norm. Breastfeeding can do that, shorten the lp. It usually does for me the first few cycles I have, although I know you've been having cycles for quite a while now. Some are just off, too. What about lining up with that possible temp hike? That matters more than cd1.

DH also gets the 30-40 minute drive home to chill, listen to music, whatever.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> I've started getting estimates for things and may just start hiring people once we get past the holidays. I got a guy to give me an estimate on our fence. It's only about $190 to fix everything. Then I can take Dylan in the backyard and relax. He also said he could fix our backdoor where the wood has rotted and is falling apart for only $150. I think anything under $200 is worth it.


At that price, I would just start scheduling people, especially if it affects how I'm able to parent day to day. Fence keeping D from playing out in the yard? Get it fixed and write the check. Door potentially a hazard to the kids? Get it fixed and write the check. Remember when my battery died in Williamsburg? DH didn't think it was that the battery needed to be replaced.







I left it alone for a while and then one morning, Ava and I came out to go do errands and the van wouldn't start. He came and jumped us and I went to and bought a battery. He wasn't very happy because he said I paid $20 too much. Whatevs. I had them check the battery and it said it needed to be replaced. I replaced it. Let's move on.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

What is it about men not wanting to spend money on stuff like that? I just don't get it.

Which reminds me, Carrie, if you can afford a cleaning service, hire one! I did right after I had Kellen and dh was deployed. Once I got over the idea of having to clean before they came to clean, it was wonderful. It was a little awkward sometimes when we'd be home but I just couldn't take the kids out of the house every time they came. You would probably be better at that if being there while they are cleaning is an issue for you. I just wish I could find someone to hire to organize my home.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

excuse my typing, on my phone!!

mw , the temp spike was 10 days ago, 25 day cycle total. idk. anyone know anything about thyroid conditions? my basal temps are low, short lp. maybe something is up.
or maybe it's just nursing. I've had my cycle back now for 7 months if that means anything.
not really worried.

I want to jjust hire ppl but dh is always here!!! argh!!

im going to look into cleaning service. that settles it!!


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> excuse my typing, on my phone!!
> mw , the temp spike was 10 days ago, 25 day cycle total. idk. anyone know anything about thyroid conditions? my basal temps are low, short lp. maybe something is up.
> ...


I have Hashimoto's Thyroiditis aka hypothyroidism. Any other symptoms? Excessive hair loss? Intolerance to temperature changes? Dry skin?


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> mw , the temp spike was 10 days ago, 25 day cycle total.


That's really within the norm. I wouldn't worry about it with just one cycle. My guess is that you did O when you had that temp spike, around cd15. Plus, you had a few missing temps before that so you could have Oed sooner, which would make your lp longer.

What were those higher temps? I don't have my book to look up but I think mid-70s and up is normal, too. If I remember correctly, those higher temps were in the mid-70s range.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Carrie: glad the mystery is cleared up, though it kinda sucks because it means no really safe days. (or at least, if it were me, that would suck).

MW: it sounds like he has a good opportunity TO decompress/switch gears, but is he using that time to do that? might be worth asking. And if he enjoys the stuff he's doing - house work, the paleo diet, whatever, then I'd just ignore the complaints. I mean, there are things I enjoy doing that I still complain about a bit - like cloth diapering, or cooking, anything dealing with the kids, LOL, etc. I don't expect anyone to take me seriously though, and that might be the difference.

And yeah, if you have the money and find a trustworthy service, just do it!

AFM: 27 weeks today, my 1 hour GTT is tomorrow morning. UGH. but at least it will be over with and done. I just hope it comes back within range. I do NOT want to take the 3 hr, and I really don't feel like I am GD anyway. I think this makes me officially in the 3rd trimester? I don't really count it until I hit 30 weeks, which is just as well, since I tend to go over. I really hope I don't go AS over though.

JJ: work still going well?

Lauri, when was Ava's appt? or when is? how did it go?

EM: I hope you can find a good solution to family stuff. It's just hard.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

akind1, can you do the 2 hr post prandial test where you eat a regular meal and then test? That's what I did instead of the 1 hr test with the glucola. Ava's appt is next Wed so one more week. Ugh.

The PE teacher at my big kids' old elementary school emailed me to see if I want to bring Ava and talk to the kids before they do Jump Rope For Heart. We did it last year so I said we would do it again this year. It's so crazy because when we went last year, it was a few weeks after Ava's second surgery. In some ways, it feels like that was a lifetime ago and in other ways, it feels like it just happened. So strange.

Baby_Cakes, that's awesome your DDC is helping some families. There's a mama in my DDC that is really struggling so lots of the mamas are sending stuff. I can't help out much but one of the things on her wish list is a pair of earbuds for her older son. That, I can do because of my employee discount so sending a pair to her.

I've been toying with the idea of doing a donation drive every year in honor of Ava's big heart surgery. The Mended Little Hearts group gives out care bags to newly diagnosed families and I was thinking of having a donation drive to collect itms for the bags. Need to talk to HR at work about doing it there.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

akind1, can you do the 2 hr post prandial test where you eat a regular meal and then test? That's what I did instead of the 1 hr test with the glucola. Ava's appt is next Wed so one more week. Ugh.

The PE teacher at my big kids' old elementary school emailed me to see if I want to bring Ava and talk to the kids before they do Jump Rope For Heart. We did it last year so I said we would do it again this year. It's so crazy because when we went last year, it was a few weeks after Ava's second surgery. In some ways, it feels like that was a lifetime ago and in other ways, it feels like it just happened. So strange.

Baby_Cakes, that's awesome your DDC is helping some families. There's a mama in my DDC that is really struggling so lots of the mamas are sending stuff. I can't help out much but one of the things on her wish list is a pair of earbuds for her older son. That, I can do because of my employee discount so sending a pair to her.

I've been toying with the idea of doing a donation drive every year in honor of Ava's big heart surgery. The Mended Little Hearts group gives out care bags to newly diagnosed families and I was thinking of having a donation drive to collect itms for the bags. Need to talk to HR at work about doing it there.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> akind1, can you do the 2 hr post prandial test where you eat a regular meal and then test? That's what I did instead of the 1 hr test with the glucola.


That's what I did, too, because I always fail the 1 hour test. My blood sugar levels are always really good when I eat a regular meal. I even tested it once by eating a high carb meal and still passed with flying colors. I think that glucola test is BS.

I don't really know what dh does in his head in that time between getting off work and coming home. I was a single working mother for 9 years and then a married working mother for almost 4 years so I really don't have much sympathy for men who say they need time to decompress from work before getting involved in home. That wasn't an option for me. I had to go from work to home and family without anyone else to help me. Personally, I think it's something that we have been conditioned to think men need. If you're going to have a family, you don't get time off. Sorry.

That probably seems pretty contrary to what I said before about being empathetic and compassionate. But I don't dump the kids on dh and run out the door as soon as he gets home. I'm still here taking care of them mostly because they usually come to me first for everything.

The only thing he does on a consistent basis when he gets home from work is cook dinner, which he doesn't have to do. He chooses to do that so he can do his paleo meals. I even cooked dinner every night for a week doing paleo meals for him but he took over again the next week without a word. I asked him if he liked cooking dinner every night and he said he did.

On the weekends he is usually busy working, making more paleo food or doing some repair job around the house. Oh, he also does the grocery shopping but, again, that's because he has particular paleo food he wants to get. I would do the grocery shopping during the week if he wanted me to.

I can't stand the complaining because it brings everyone down. I don't like the negativity and I think it's harmful to the kids. That's why I talk to him about changing his thinking to see that everything he does is a choice. If it's a choice, then he can choose not to do it. Then it's not a chore if he does do it. It's something he wants to do. Why would you choose to be miserable when you could choose to at least be content or okay if not happy?


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

I think the OB office is just too stuck in the mud; and at any rate it's tomorrow. *sigh* I passed the 1 hr with Gabe, failed it with Norah, but passed the 3 hr one. I know some people have successfully avoided it all together by just having the office monitor their blood sugar levels at visits, but that seems to me to not be much better. I don't mind needles, but I don't volunteer for extra either.

Ack, with that negativity, that needs to just go away - you're right, it doesn't help anybody. My MIL is like that. Will complain about crap all day, but won't let anyone step in and help either (or complains that they don't do it right). Some people have luck writing down their negative thoughts and burning them or trashing them or whatever. IDK if that's helpful or not. I don't know it would help ME, but I could be wrong, and I am not wired to think that way anyway.

And yeah, moms don't get much decomression time. But for me, coming home, sitting on the couch with the kids and snuggling or whatever IS my decompression time. And since most days I'm working from home, there isn't much separtion of work/kids/home life. it is what it is. It's also why I make an effort to stay up late without kids and/or wake early before they do, so I get some kid free time. It's worth a little less sleep.

as for men vs. women . . . part might be conditioning, but I think it's also partly in how we are wired/built/whatever - men generally are better at compartmentalization, but suck at multitasking. It's of course not true for every man, but it's true enough for most.

Lauri - will be thinking of Ava next week. and I think doing a drive would be awesome - it's so good to give back, and I think it means alot to those on the receiving end that you have btdt.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I went to a very traditional OB practice when I was pg with Kellen and they agreed to the 2 hour test that Annie mentioned. It can't hurt to ask. You can reschedule the appointment. You can always refuse the test all together.









See, I think that's part of the conditioning. Connecting with the kids after being away is what moms need and do. Men don't. The thing is that men can be just as nurturing and connected as moms if they want to be. It may not be in exactly the same way as moms. Maybe dads will wrestle with the kids or enlist them to help with a task. They just think they should get this "decompression" time because that's what we've all heard from our patriarchal society. Women who woh/wah don't get the same consideration.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

i guess though I don't like it, it's one of those things I don't care enough to fight about - I'll just grumble a bit. Kind of like constant monitoring in labor. I don't like it. but as a VBAC, it's part of the deal. (in the hospital at least) I did fight for the kind of monitoring I wanted with the last one - seriously, if your water has broken, I find the internal monitor much less stressful. But that's just me - it's worth the slightly higher risks of infection, etc.

Need to get photobooks done for the grandparents this week. fun stuff. Not much else going on here, it appears DH is having a good day with the kids so far.yay!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

It shouldn't have to be a fight. It's your body, your baby, your care. If anything you want is a "fight", then maybe you need a different hcp. I know you've said that you really like this OB and, of course, that's your choice. But if they make anything feel like a fight, they aren't all that great, imo.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

There are so few options for VBAC friendly providers - they are really the best of what's here. It's unfortunate. Yes, it's my body and all that - but when dealing with hcp I feel somethings are worth compromising on, some are a hill I'd die on, and some are just NBD. this is one of those that doesn't make that big a difference in the long run. It's a hassle, but not going to really affect me one way or the other - or the baby - for that matter.

As it is, we had a scare that my insurance wasn't going to consider the provider/hospital in network anymore, thankfully the issue was resolved, but my goodness, searching for another vbac friendly provider and hospital this late in the game would have SUCKED.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> See, I think that's part of the conditioning. Connecting with the kids after being away is what moms need and do. Men don't. The thing is that men can be just as nurturing and connected as moms if they want to be. It may not be in exactly the same way as moms. Maybe dads will wrestle with the kids or enlist them to help with a task. They just think they should get this "decompression" time because that's what we've all heard from our patriarchal society. Women who woh/wah don't get the same consideration.


Yeah, what's up with that?

The double standard is really infuriating, especially with what you were saying about being a single working mom, and not getting that time to yourself.

Ok - so listen to this. So, Nora is back to being a little timid at school drop off lately. She's very mommy-centric as you know, and I've been struggling with separations, etc. Well. Today, her school was doing this thing where we didn't have to bring them into the building, the teachers were outside waiting to help them get into the building and into class. Nora panicked a bit, so I said you know, no big deal, I asked Janine (the girl we used as a babysitter, she's one of the teachers) to grab Finn and I got Nora out. We went up and b/c J was carrying Finn in, I didn't have the boba. She just put him down, and I tried to get Nora situated. Finn ran off to play trains with the boys on the rug (seriously, I don't think I'll have these issues that I have with Nora with Finn...) and instead of CLINGING to my hip and needing 2 hugs, 2 kisses, 2 high fives, 2 extra hugs, and then HOPING she'd let me leave, she ran off to play with the boys and Finn.

Jaw hit the floor.

I started chatting with Ms Susan, her teacher, and I hear her chatting and laughing and playing trains! I gave them a minute. I went to get Finn and just said, "Ok, bye Nora, see you later!" and a quick hug and kiss and TADA! I left her in smiles!

Maybe seeing her brother play nicely and having that few min transition is all she needs?!

I hope she's as calm when we go for portraits!


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

Sorry guys. Be back tonight with a long update. Tonight we got to see great-grandma and tell her to go to a home.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> There are so few options for VBAC friendly providers - they are really the best of what's here. It's unfortunate.


oh right. i forgot you have that extra consideration. that is so infuriating. it sucks that you can't find a midwife. too bad there isn't a CPM in NC who would go to you. i've heard some MWs from SC come here.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Baby_Cakes, that's so funny to me that Nora has such a tough time at drop-off. She seemed so self-assured and bold when we were together in Williamsburg. But I guess it shouldn't be too shocking. Ava does similar things. Very outgoing and take charge when she wants to be but doesn't like leaving Mama.







Although how great does it feel to not have to leave a reluctant one? That's one of the things I love so much about the new sitter although Ava never had trouble being left with the original sitter but that's because she's known her all of her life.

I get a little fed up with all these daddies that seem put out by taking care of their kids. Like give me a freaking break! I don't know why it's making me so mad but holy hell! DH wanted to go to a semi-work event Sunday night. Well I'm at work. He asked if he could take her to my mom's but I said I would prefer that he try to get DSD 14 to come over and watch her or not go because DD has a really tough time being away from home when it gets dark. Even when she's at my mom's house. She worries herself asking for Dada and pointing to the door. And he said something like "So am I supposed to put my whole life on hold because Ava doesn't like to be out at night?" Ummm, no. That's not what I said. I said try to get DSD 14 to come over. And seriously, she's a baby. Like you can't do things differently for a few months until she gets a bit older? Ugh.

So that Santa pic I posted on FB. A little funny but mostly makes me sad. I asked DH to not push it with her. If she wasn't feeling it, just bag it. Not a big deal. And I know he didn't have her screaming for hours but there are about 6 pics total. If I had been there and she started crying at the beginning, I would have just said "no thanks" and left. Oh well. I'm going to take her to the mall Santa and see if we can spend some time watching other kids sit on Santa's lap and then try again. If not, no big deal.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> So that Santa pic I posted on FB. A little funny but mostly makes me sad. I asked DH to not push it with her. If she wasn't feeling it, just bag it. Not a big deal. And I know he didn't have her screaming for hours but there are about 6 pics total. If I had been there and she started crying at the beginning, I would have just said "no thanks" and left. Oh well. I'm going to take her to the mall Santa and see if we can spend some time watching other kids sit on Santa's lap and then try again. If not, no big deal.


I know exactly what you mean. I mentioned Gunny Claus on your photo. He was at dh's unit party last night. I tried two separate times to get a photo with Dylan but he was not having it. I didn't push it. I put him on the guy's lap. He immediately started crying so I picked him right back up. They still snapped photos.







Ethan wouldn't get a photo at all and Kellen only stood next to the guy with a very grim look on his face.









I think it's sad when parents force their children to sit for photos like that when they are clearly upset. It's also a little creepy. Maybe I'm going a bit too far but the idea of forcing a baby or small child to sit on a stranger's lap sends a pretty screwed up message.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

I'm waiting until Gabe asks. Or I'm dressed well enough to be in the picture too - that generally works. But since I'm not super gung ho on Santa, It's really NBD if we don't get a pic. Norah will go to and sit with anybody. DH is I think even less gung ho on Santa than I am, so I don't have to worry about him pushing it.

Glucose test went ok; my bp was up, but that's no surprise. they shouldn't take the bp at this visit seriously anyway. Results should be in tomorrow. My iron was fine, yay. It took a long time to get back to normal after Norah's birth. Heart rate 150-160. Not a fan of this particular OB, but he's not the one I regularly see.

Need to get back in potty training mode with ds. He's been asking for diapers though, and I don't want to fight him about it.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> I think it's sad when parents force their children to sit for photos like that when they are clearly upset. It's also a little creepy. Maybe I'm going a bit too far but the idea of forcing a baby or small child to sit on a stranger's lap sends a pretty screwed up message.


I'm seeing so many of these on my feed!!! Crying babies on santa's lap. WTF people!??

Nora doesn't like Santa. I don't care enough to push it. Finn could probably care less, but...why take one kid and not the other? Since I"m not sold on the whole Santa thing anyway, I just don't even go there. You know?

What a day.


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

Totally TMI off topic rant, but I feel safe with you ladies.

Ok, so as background, DH and I are just barely keeping up with bills these next couple months, just with my mat leave ending and the renos we've been doing on the basement. We're good, and we've got a huge LOC if we need, but nothing in savings. We've been trying to keep extra purchases to a minimum.

A couple days ago, DH tells me "There's something I've been thinking about buying, but I'm not sure, and I can't decide if I should ask you first or not..." I told him that if he -thinks- he should ask me, then YES, I want to know, and don't buy it, because I'll probably say no. If it was something I really wanted, he wouldn't have to 'wonder' if he should get it, he'd know. Anyways, I brought it up a couple times, and he kept avoiding telling me.

Today he tells me that it's going to arrive tomorrow, and I can't open it. But I'm going to now what it is as soon as it gets here, based on the packaging. So of course I'm nosy, and after asking him a dozen times to just tell me what the hell her ordered, I went snooping (it's on our joint credit card, it's really not that much of a snoop!!)

He spent fifty fucking dollars on some sort of sex toys. For fucks sake, really? At his insistence, like 2 years ago, I ordered a vibrator. And then 2 months later, he ordered some other stuff, even after I told him I was not interested in anything else. None of them get used, and they all sit in a drawer untouched. I'm just not interested. But somehow he has it in his head that I WANTED him to go spend $50 on more crap. He even said it's something I brought up a lonnnnnnnnnng time ago. Ok really? Maybe if it hasn't been brought up for a long time, that's your cue that I don't want it.

Eff. And now he's gonna be in a pissy mood when it gets here tomorrow and surprise surprise, I'm -not- excited or happy about it. So annoyed. First because he's obviously not listening to what I want or don't want. Second because I told him to ask me first, and he didn't, and now we wasted $50 that we don't really have. And third-- if you really wanted to freaking buy me something, what about the necklace I've been asking for, for THREE YEARS!?? And repeatedly mention that I want... whatever toy this is, is 1/3 of the cost of the "totally too expensive" necklace.

I'm just in such a bad mood right now. Like really... I'm just back to work, I'm tired all the time, I'm pulled in 12 directions, and I'm feeling like I Have no -me- time, and nothing that I really want... this is really really really, not my idea of a nice surprise gift. Idiot.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

That crap would piss me off too JJ. If you were in the US, I would tell you to just refuse the pkg when UPS attempted delivery. Not sure if that works in Canada though. Can you return it? Eat the return shipping charge?


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

JJ: UGH. I have nothing against toys if they float your boat, but clearly they don't! I'd send them back. Say, sorry dude. We don't have the money, space, or inclination for this crap. And buy yourself that necklace!


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

OMG. He totally bought that for himself. You know he did. He just wants more action.

I'd play the "Oh. Really?" card when it arrives and laugh and be like, "OMG dude, I don't think so," and tell him you're not interested! Send it back and buy yourself the necklace. Who gets sex toys as a christmas gift? Sexy undies, maybe but hardcore stuff? Smh. Men have no clue sometimes!


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

No clue. DH buys condoms online, because he's particular about that sort of thing (and what do I know, anyway?) but that's it. I'd buy that lingerie/sexy boxers, but we open gifts in front of my parents and the kids . . . and yeah. not so much.

And tell your dH, JJ, if he wants more action, buying that crap is not gonna get it. helping with tenley, buying the stuff you ACTUALLY want, will go alot further in that department.

Not much here, have a wedding to go to this weekend, kinda bummed bc we can only do the ceremony, DH has to work right after so we can't go to the reception, and I don't want to go by myself. Other than that, no plans. Might do lights before Christmas at the Zoo on Sunday.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I was thinking what Carrie said. He bought that stuff because he wanted it. My dh does that sometimes. I think it's funny but it doesn't cut into our budget like that and I don't think he's ever spent that much (at least at one time). I'd immediately return it for a refund.

I've done that with gifts my dh has sent me before. I mentioned it on here. He bought me an ugly necklace when Kellen was young, I think, when he was deployed once. I hadn't worn a necklace in years because they get yanked and broken. It was just dumb so I returned it. He never mentioned it and neither did I.







Do you remember the fit I had over him donating money to the women's shelter in my name one year? That was while he was in Oklahoma and we were here so we were scraping by trying to maintain two households. I told him I didn't want anything for my birthday or something that year. That wasn't really anything I wanted that badly and we needed the money. So, that's what he did, basically threw the money away. If we had had the money to spare, I would have appreciated that because it is important to me but it's more important to me that we take care of our own children and family first.









Dylan is definitely signing "water". Yay!







It's so cute. He has also just in the last week, maybe, started coming to me and pointing at his rear when he has poo or wants to be changed. The other day he even came to me and pointed at his rear when he had to poo and was naked. He wanted me to put a diaper on him but I wouldn't. I tried putting him on the potty and the toilet but he wouldn't stay. He ran off and pooped on the floor.







He will sit on his potty when he goes in the bathroom with me but has yet to make any deposits. I don't know what I'll do if he is out of diapers around 2. What will I do with all my yarn?









I'm not a big fan of Santa, either, obviously. I never make a special trip to the mall or wherever to get photos of my kids with Santa or the Easter Bunny. If we are there and they see it and want to do it, that's fine. At the mall I don't get the photos. I'm not going to spend the ridiculous amount they charge for one digital photo of my kids and they won't let anyone snap a picture with their own phones. Rip off! The photos with Gunny Claus at the party for free so I figured, "What the hey?" I think he was a dirty old man. He never really smiled with the kids but made a lot of effort trying to talk the women into posing with me.

Spotting today. 11 days after my CF dry up. I think that's pretty cool. I may actually be able to track my cycles with just CF. I woke up around 5 am with awful cramps. I had to take some ibuprofen.

Annie ~ What is your prescription? I think I need something that will at least get me through 8 hours at night. I've tried Naproxen but it did nothing for me. So far, only ibuprofen and hydrocodone work but I don't really want to take hydrocodone often. I only took once when I was doing IVF and the doc didn't want me to take anything that might thin my blood and could cause excessive bleeding.


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

oh i dont think its supposed to be a xmas gift, just "something we'd been talking about getting that he finally decided to buy" except.... clearly not.

I didn't think you could return stuff like this? (all said without knowing what it is, just the store it was bought from). Maybe I'll give it a shot (the return I mean).

And Kat-- totally. Try putting your clothes away, or spending a day with Tenley without then whining about your alone time. THOSE will work, not more expensive crap I don't want.

like frik he couldn't have just ordered something from victoria secret? lol

Kat-- that sucks. I really enjoy weddings, even thuogh DH and I aren't super social people. It's still nice to get out and see people and feel dressed up. It's a nice change from the day to day. Hope you guys are able to do the lights!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

JJ ~ I'd think that as long as it's in the original unopened packaging you could return it. Then put the money in your pocket and spend it on something totally selfish just for you.


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

I just checked. no returns on toys themselves. So I guess I hope it's a movie or book? lol They also sell massage oils and candles, that sort of thing, but I highly doubt it's one of those. Grrrr. I just went through the site again, and honestly can't come up with --anything-- that I would open the box and actually think "hmm, well that might be fun!" lol


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

JJ - I can see why you're annoyed. Its kind of like, I bought this toy for YOU but really its him. Esp. if you clearly don't care for sex toys. lol!

Trade it in for some candles, so you have some encase of like a power outage. lolol!


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

Yesterday I got into an arguement with my husband about RF versus FW!

He thinks that it should be ok to Forward Face at 1 year old and 25 lbs. I say its not. I say, lets keep him RF for as long as physically possible.

Here's his thing, Eddie cries during car rides. He wants to see us etc. I tried mirrors, big brother in the back with him, etc etc. Still cries all the way to and from when we're in the car.

I think hubby is just stressed about that. He tells me we will keep him RF but if he grows at the rate he has been, he will FF.

I have showed him links etc about the risks of FF too soon etc. But, he is very set in his way of thinking and sometimes thinks he knows it all. ARGH!

I love my husband, I love being married to him most of the time, but sometimes, I wish I didn't have to convince anyone, or explain myself, or compromise and have it MY WAY!! Lol


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Since I am the installer of carseats in our family, DH lets me take the lead  Norah isn't even 20 lbs yet, despite the amount of food she eats - so I figure I can keep her RF another year or so, at least.

And yeah, compromise sucks sometimes


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

Well, I don't drive (long story short. I never had to in Europe) so DH takes the lead when it comes to installing and driving.

But I still know better about car seats. lol!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

That's not something I would compromise on no matter who drives. I tell my dh that unless he can come up with scientific evidence that his way has benefits over mine I get the final say. I do all the research. He doesn't. I compare it to the fact that I don't show up at his job and tell him how to do it.

Bummer, JJ. Well, I guess if you have to keep it, maybe you can get some fun out of it.









I don't think I ever told you all the conclusion to Dylan's diaper rash problem. I discovered dryer sheets in the laundry closet. I thought Ryan and his girlfriend were using them but, no. It was dh! I have told him numerous times not to use fabric softener or dryer sheets in the machines I use for washing the cloth diapers. He actually had the dryer sheets hidden! Once I got rid of them no more of that horrible diaper rash. Hmm....


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> That's not something I would compromise on no matter who drives. I tell my dh that unless he can come up with scientific evidence that his way has benefits over mine I get the final say. I do all the research. He doesn't. I compare it to the fact that I don't show up at his job and tell him how to do it.


Yeah. I am not comfortable at all with FF so it won't happen. This is OUR child's safety, its not something I mess with.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

DH drives more than I do, but I get to install car seats (not much fun when like, 9 months pregnant) but still probably easier than it is for him, since he's so tall. Don't compromise on safety!

And MW: LOL at hidden dryer sheets. DH won't buy them bc he says they are bad for the dryer. scented wool dryer balls are awesome and better anyway. - we use only eo, not perfumes, to scent ours. No harm to clothes or diapers.

Wedding tomorrow, and turns out DH doesn't have to work, so we can go to the reception! I just have to figure out shoes . . .


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

kat - Wear sandals! LOL!

Re: FF vs RF - such a heated topic, you know?? It's so much safer to RF, but I did turn Nora FF when she was 2.5. Not the worst but not the best either. It was really for my own convenience b/c I had a 2 door car, and with my huge pg belly I couldn't reach around to get her into the RF seat and buckle her anymore.

I was a little nervous if she had outgrown her carseat now at 4 to switch to a booster. I really want to keep her harnessed as long as financially/practically possible.

I can't imagine a FF 1 year old. The videos of what their necks do in a crash are too too scary! Fight for this one, EM! We'll help you if you need links/support!

Hoping to get out with just Nora today for some mommy/daughter time. Not sure what yet. Her choice!

I need more coffee!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I have those rubber dryer balls. They work fine for me. DH says he's extra sensitive to static cling. None of my clothes get staticy. I think it's the material some of his clothes are made out of. He has a lot of those nylon sports clothes that are supposed to wick moisture away. Wool dryer balls are on my list of things to make, someday...I have so much I want to make.

Carrie ~ Could you get a seat that converts from a 5-point harness to a booster? That's what we use for Kellen. It's getting to be more of a tricky situation because Kellen's younger friends are in the same booster as Ethan and Ethan is starting to notice.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> Carrie ~ Could you get a seat that converts from a 5-point harness to a booster? That's what we use for Kellen. It's getting to be more of a tricky situation because Kellen's younger friends are in the same booster as Ethan and Ethan is starting to notice.


I think I technically have one of those. Or are you thinking like the Frontier? If I got a Frontier she could be harnessed practically forever. 85 lbs is what? 10 years old??? She's barely 38 lbs at 4.

I need to get her eating more consistently. She's rail thin.

We had a great day. Kat - looked like you had fun at the wedding! You guys look so happy!

Makes me want that spark back in my relationship.









I need food! Dinner is cooking. Can't wait to eat and drink (more) wine and watch Walking Dead. We are addicted to that show!! Tho - we like it MUCH better than American Horror Story which scares me too much and Chris says wasn't good enough for how hyped it is. MW what do you think?


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

We have a Frontier that we use in the van but I actually would not recommend it. It's nice with the harness but sucks as a booster. Ethan could still be in it. He weighs around 50 lbs. We also have a Graco for dh's truck. I think it's the Nautilus 3-in-1. I know it was maybe on the iffy list that you posted on Facebook. That list was a little confusing, though, because I don't think it had the complete, clear names of the seats. It fits and has worked fine so far.

I'm the opposite with those TV shows. I can't watch the Walking Dead because it scares me too much. Zombies have always freaked me out.







I really like AHS. I've also been watching Dexter. I like watching it but I don't think it's as good as AHS. The thing I like about AHS is that it leaves me wondering who's really alive and who's actually dead. I also have always loved Jessica Lange. I think she's a phenomenal actor. Have you watched AHS Asylum? That was is fereeeeaky!


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

We liked Dexter but stopped watching a ways in and didn't feel compelled to continue. Not sure why...

We didn't get to asylum! We only watched the first 3 episodes of the first season. My nightmares were too bad!!

DH and I are at am impasse regarding some decisions that need to be made about the house. Maybe you guys can help? We are both being stubborn about what we think is best.

1. We have a SMALL dining room. We don't use it. We have a table and 2 chairs pushed against the wall but it only fits a bowl for fruit and honestly it's where I keep my laptop. That's about it. I want to get a bar table and 2 or 3 bar height chairs and create a "breakfast nook" type space, to help the room look functional. Chris wants to get a big round table and stick it right in the center.

I think the big round table will disrupt traffic flow and make it look even smaller. I don't think a potential buyer wants to see that. I think they want to see the space as something functional. Thoughts?

2. We have a metal awning that needs to come down above the front door. I want to take it down and either leave it with nothing (filling in the gaps in the siding, of course) or replace it with a black fabric awning. Chris thinks it should be cranberry colored to match the shutters.

I think cranberry is too specific and not neutral enough. Shutters are cheap and easy to replace if new owners want a different color. But an awning is an expense they won't want to deal with. I think neutral is better. Thoughts?

3. He wants to paint the white garage door cranberry. I don't like this at all. Thoughts?

My thinking is keep it as basic as possible, not doing things that are decorative to our tastes. I think he thinks more color will attract more buyers. Idk what to do. If I give in on some of these I think it will make the house harder to sell.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

From watching those shows about selling homes, it seems it's always better to create the illusion of more space and keep things neutral if the purpose is to sell. If you were doing it for yourselves but concerned about selling in the future, I'd say go with what you like.

What is his reasoning for the big table? Will it be used for something or just a table in the room or do you mean a large dining room table with chairs? Presumably, you would be taking any furniture with you so get something that you will use in your next home. Maybe you can find a larger table with a removable leaf so you can size it down for the smaller room.

Dexter is losing it's intrigue. I'm really only watching it now because I can't watch AHS without dh and he hardly ever has time. We try to do marathons on the weekends.







We've only gotten through episode 9 of season 1. I'm on season 4 of Dexter. It started to get a little meh with the sister always having boyfriend issues and just being kind of dense and Dexter getting a partner in Jimmy Smits. I like Jimmy Smits but he seems to kill every show he's ever been in. It started with L.A. Law, I believe.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 

From watching those shows about selling homes, it seems it's always better to create the illusion of more space and keep things neutral if the purpose is to sell. If you were doing it for yourselves but concerned about selling in the future, I'd say go with what you like.
What is his reasoning for the big table? Will it be used for something or just a table in the room or do you mean a large dining room table with chairs?
His reasoning for the big table is b/c he wants to "create" a dining area. But the house really doesn't allow for it, which is why for the past what, 8 years that we've lived here we haven't had one. It isn't practical and doesn't fit. And yeah I mean a large dining room table with chairs.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Well, if it doesn't fit, it doesn't fit. I don't really know what to tell you on that one. One of you will have to compromise or maybe come up with a completely different idea or do nothing. How important is it to you to be right? Is this room, this furniture, this thing important enough to fight over or can you just let him do whatever he wants even if it turns out being wrong?


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

I've watched hours and hours of HGTV. Paint neutral colors. No one wants to see your creativity. A cranberry garage door may catch someone's eye but if they are seriously considering buying the house, it may put them off thinking about the hours they would have to spend re-painting the stupid thing. And if you can buy a table that would be useful in the new house, why not? But if you are just buying the table to sell the house, eh.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> Well, if it doesn't fit, it doesn't fit. I don't really know what to tell you on that one. One of you will have to compromise or maybe come up with a completely different idea or do nothing. How important is it to you to be right? Is this room, this furniture, this thing important enough to fight over or can you just let him do whatever he wants even if it turns out being wrong?


It's not so much the being right as the desire to sell fast. You know?

Honestly I just let him rearrange the furniture all day. He has the table in the middle now, and I said I'll be openminded and see how it works. I'm not exactly arguing about it I just don't see how it's going to work. It interrupts the flow of traffic.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> I've watched hours and hours of HGTV. Paint neutral colors. No one wants to see your creativity. A cranberry garage door may catch someone's eye but if they are seriously considering buying the house, it may put them off thinking about the hours they would have to spend re-painting the stupid thing. And if you can buy a table that would be useful in the new house, why not? But if you are just buying the table to sell the house, eh.


Yes, yes, yes.

I have felt sick all day. Foggy, dizzy, so so tired. Right around dinner time my stomach started killing me! So hard to put the kids to bed myself. DH still isn't very helpful at bedtime. I wish some nights I could just bail. Sigh. But. They're down and they were out by 845. Not quite as early as I'd like but better than later!!

Going to watch ONE WD and then off to bed. I need to pay off some sleep debt.

MW - one of my friends from my DDC is interested in unschooling. I said I'd ask you something for her. She wants to know what sort of toys woud be good to buy for her 1 year old that isn't too school oriented but more open ended/play/life learning. I suggested things for dramatic play and physical play - nothing alphabet necesarily or obvious learning. But what about books? Do you encourage reading, etc? Or do you just let them show interest when they are ready?

I have another comment tho. My good friend keeps telling me "We have to get Finn signing," and every time he makes a whine or points to something, she encourages him to sign, and says to me, "Oh that would so get on my nerves. [my LO] was signing for things at this point." I have told her for me signing is really extra and he isn't deaf, and is already speaking some, so I don't push it. I don't honestly worry about it. We didn't even bother with Nora for crying out loud, and she talks just fine! 
And she has kind of judged me for not sitting and reading every day to the kids.

I want to start sharing some unschooling links b/c I think she is too focused on schooling. I want to follow a more laid back approach. You know?


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> It's not so much the being right as the desire to sell fast. You know?
> Honestly I just let him rearrange the furniture all day. He has the table in the middle now, and I said I'll be openminded and see how it works. I'm not exactly arguing about it I just don't see how it's going to work. It interrupts the flow of traffic.


Then let him do what he wants to do and be responsible for the outcome. Whatever. Ya know?

Sorry you were feeling sick. I sometimes feel sick for no apparent reason. It sucks, especially since dh doesn't take me seriously.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> MW - one of my friends from my DDC is interested in unschooling. I said I'd ask you something for her. She wants to know what sort of toys woud be good to buy for her 1 year old that isn't too school oriented but more open ended/play/life learning. I suggested things for dramatic play and physical play - nothing alphabet necesarily or obvious learning. But what about books? Do you encourage reading, etc? Or do you just let them show interest when they are ready?
> 
> ...


Honestly, I'd say get whatever she thinks her child would like. Unschooling isn't about avoiding educational things. It's about giving your child the things he likes with the understand that he is always learning. One thing I've been meaning to mention is that you have to let go of all preconceived notions about education and what you think your child needs to know. Everything is a learning tool. Books are always good but aren't necessary and shouldn't be pushed over other things.

As to signing, I signed with Ethan, Kellen and Dylan. They all signed different words at different times and in different frequency. Your friend probably doesn't realize that not all kids will do the same thing at the same time. Dylan just recently started signing milk and water even though I've been signing those to him since birth. Tell your friend she needs to get over herself.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Very true!

I find that this time around I'm not focused on having Finn learn what animal says what, or where his ears/eyes/nose are. I remember doing all that stuff the first time and being super proud of it. But I don't know that it really matters? Idk. Part of me thinks maybe I'm just being lazy, but another part of me knows it's just a set of "tricks" people like to see small children do.

re:signing - he's got a handful of signs that I find useful. Everytime I'm trying to get info from him and we don't have the sign yet, I look it up and start using it. But I can't go out and get all the dvds and books and push it so hard. It's just not my style. We recently started signing "tree" b/c the christmas tree is up. That is a fun one!

Finn says, "Nora!" clear as day. It's amazing. I think it melts my heart more than hearing him say Mama at this point. When he yells across the house, "Nora!" it's ADORABLE.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> Part of me thinks maybe I'm just being lazy, but another part of me knows it's just a set of "tricks" people like to see small children do.


That's because that's what everyone else says you should feel. If you aren't doing X, Y, Z with your child you are lazy and the child is going to be "behind" and disadvantaged. All of that is in respect to school, though, and schools are failing. It is nothing more than a set of tricks. What kids are expected to know for school is so arbitrary. Who knows if they'll ever actually use it? As long as you include your child in your life and talk to your child and do things with your child, he will learn what he needs to know. It's inevitable. You can't stop it.

Recently, I was doing something with Dylan and I tried to get him to point to his nose. He wouldn't do it. I wondered for a second if there was something wrong because he couldn't point to his nose. Then today I told Kellen to get a tissue and blow his nose because it was nasty. Dylan came up to me and stuck his finger in his nose and grunted and pointed at the tissue. He knows what his nose is without having to jump through hoops to prove it.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

A big thing with unschooling, as I mentioned before, is letting go of all your preconceived notions about what your child should know and when. Let go of the idea that some things are more important to know than others. It's called deschooling. Anyone who has been through school needs to deschool before she can unschool. The rule of thumb is that it takes and equal amount of months to the number of years you were in school. So, 12 years of grammar schooling will require at least 12 months, a year, of unschooling to get over. Then you have to learn and accept that all things are equal to all other things. Knowing how to ride a bike is just as valuable as knowing algebra. Knowing how to bake a cake is just as valuable as knowing how to read. Being able to read the manual to a video game is just as valuable as being able to read Harry Potter. Watching Harry Potter is just as valuable as reading the book. Whatever your child is learning at the moment is the most valuable thing they will ever learn. There will be much more to learn later.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

I wish Ava had more signs. The pointing and grunting sometimes takes me to the edge. But I want her to have more signs so she can communicate with me, not so I can say she has X number of signs. She's obsessed with brushing her teeth right now. I keep showing her the sign for toothbrush and she just ignores it. She points to the bathroom and touches her teeth with her tongue. :/

Sorry you don't feel well Baby_Cakes. Hope it's not the crazy stomach stuff going around.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> I keep showing her the sign for toothbrush and she just ignores it. She points to the bathroom and touches her teeth with her tongue. :/
> Sorry you don't feel well Baby_Cakes. Hope it's not the crazy stomach stuff going around.


But that IS her sign! Take it! Run with it!

I don't think it's a tummy bug, thank goodness! I might have some sinus pressure but nothing actually feels congested.

Actually, the more I think about it today, I think it's SAD. I get it every year. I've never found anything that works to help me except for going tanning, and I really REALLY don't think I want to do that. But I can't stand feeling this way -- so out of it, so spaced out, incredibly unmotivated. Everything feels monotonous. No drive.

I tried putting on sunscreen hoping the scent would trigger me out of it. I've been taking my vitamins, trying to get exercise. Sigh.

This morning I'm really feeling it. Just dragging.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Staging: I think depends on what your area is like - if you have a lot of sort of cookie cutter homes, doing things to make it different - like a bold color on the front door - may really help your house be memorable. If your house already has a lot of character - like a craftsman style house - you probably don't want to add those things, but let the bones of the house and the details inherent in that style speak for themselves. Neutral is good, but it doesn't have to be bland. People look at so many houses these days with the internet and high inventory in a lot of areas, that you want your house to be memorable.

I think also people like rooms with a purpose, they like to know "this space is for dining" vs. this space is used as an office, a dining room, a craft room . . . all at once! because if it is all those things, it lends to the idea that your space is to small to accomodate different needs in different areas (I think this rule would not apply to NYC spaces that are small, and the more multifunctional the better)

Re: unschooling/homeschooling, etc . . .MIL was asking about this stuff this weekend, like, if I continue to work - which unless we win the lottery or something is just plain likely - how will we homeschool? We explained that schooling doesn't really need to take a large portion of the day, and she looks skeptical. I don't feel like even trying to explain unschooling to her. It would make my head hurt. I agree, that if we were to unschool, we'd have to deschool ourselves (and also our familes, oy - the bad part of living so close to so much family!) and IDK if that' even possible. It's part of the reason why I don't know we will be radical unschoolers, though we may take somethings from that philosophy. I'm definitely not into canned homeschooling programs either. We have some time.

Carrie - I hope you get feeling better! Winter has only just begun!

2 weeks until Christmas! I am not ready, and yet, I still can't wait for it to be here, and be done, so we can get back to normal. LOL Still a good many things we want to try to do with the kids before chrismas. need to hurry up.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

carrie ~ are you taking vitamin D? Maybe you could try one of those sunlamps that's not really for tanning. IDK if those are dangerous.

Yeah, Annie, that is Ava's sign for teeth brushing. Dylan does a lot of pointing and grunting. It can get frustrating trying to figure out what he wants.

I never even considered the idea of the rest of my family needing to deschool and all 3 of my parents were teachers. My dad, who was a college professor, has been much more open to me homeschooling and unschooling than my mother, who was a public high school teacher for several years. I think the idea threatens my mom a bit because it basically means that her job was pointless and maybe even harmful. Anyway, I don't have a problem telling my family to butt out if they try to get into my business and tell me how to do things with my children. It's really none of their business. My family is also pretty good about staying out of each other's business like that in the first place. My mother sometimes starts things but I cut her off quick. I don't have to deal with the in-laws. My MIL is dead and my FIL moved to Arizona with his new wife. I really never talk to them.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

I've been taking 2,000 IU of vit D since my symptoms started. Maybe I need to bump that up. I also started taking additional calcium (I always take my multi) and zinc. I figure it can't hurt.

Those lamps are pricey. Tanning is cheap. Sigh. Let me see how I feel with the supplements for a few more days, I suppose. It's not like tanning is the end of the world if I limit it to 5-7 min a session.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Well, part depends on where exactly we are living when the kids are "school" age - My parents are really fine with homeschooling - my mom homeschooled my sister for several years. My MIL is just clueless, I think. Though the ILs are pretty um. . . anti government is quite the word, but maybe libertarian fits better? so if approached and given stuff to read from that perspective, they'd probably jump all over it. I think MIL does worry alot about appearances - she worries about how to explain things to family, if the state will butt in and could we get in trouble, all that crap- though, and also college, etc. DH and I are firmly in the - if our kids want to go to college, great, if not, great - camp.

Norah does a lot of pointing. She's adding words all the time now that she's kind of plateaued on the physical development. Today we added "quack" yesterday was "crap" It's not consistent all the time, but she babbles constantly, and clearly says things at times. I love it!


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> I think MIL does worry alot about appearances - she worries about how to explain things to family, if the state will butt in and could we get in trouble, all that crap- though, and also college, etc. DH and I are firmly in the - if our kids want to go to college, great, if not, great - camp.
> 
> Norah does a lot of pointing. She's adding words all the time now that she's kind of plateaued on the physical development. Today we added "quack" yesterday was "crap" It's not consistent all the time, but she babbles constantly, and clearly says things at times. I love it!


My ILs are the same way. They actually lied to family when I had Nora at home.







I told my MIL it was on her for lying. I never told her to do that. So she had to back pedal a bit when I started talking about homebirth. At first she said she thought she wanted me to do that but I was so proud that I said absolutely not, ever, so she took the heat.

As for school -- idk. Idk what she would do if I decided to home school, but at this point I'm sure she'd butt out. She knows I do everything pretty different. I think she'd respect choices.

Unschooling tho I think she'd have questions. But that's it.

It's hard when your circle isn't very supportive. Lately I feel like my circle is really, really supportive. I'm happy with who I have these days.

Kat - haha to crap! LOL!


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

I scored a great deal on diapers for the squish! 6 covers (practically new), 24 prefolds, a few prefitted, for $60, including shipping. I want some AIO I think for when we are out and about (or maybe I will use some disposables for then . . .) but that should be pretty good. I have a couple covers already, so I have a bout 8 ish covers. Should that be enough? and I need a snappi . . .

And photobooks for the grandparents have been purchased. yay. only DH and my sister/BIL are left to buy for for Christmas. 2 weeks!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

There's also the fact that school does not guarantee college. Maybe look up stats on the percentage of kids who actually graduate from high school and then go on to be successful in college. And, of course, college does not guarantee a decent job or a nice life. It can certainly make things easier and better and possibly give you more opportunities but, then, maybe not. There a lot of people with college degrees who are either not working or working at menial, minimum wage jobs because that's all they could get. Meanwhile, they have huge student loan debts that they may never get paid off. Plus, there are several ways to get to college these days. It doesn't have to be 12 consecutive years of public school followed immediately by 4 years of undergrad, and so on.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> I scored a great deal on diapers for the squish! 6 covers (practically new), 24 prefolds, a few prefitted, for $60, including shipping. I want some AIO I think for when we are out and about (or maybe I will use some disposables for then . . .) but that should be pretty good. I have a couple covers already, so I have a bout 8 ish covers. Should that be enough? and I need a snappi . . .
> 
> And photobooks for the grandparents have been purchased. yay. only DH and my sister/BIL are left to buy for for Christmas. 2 weeks!


Yay for dipes!! GREAT deal! For AIO I love grovia AIO. I love the shell with the insert, too, but I love their AIO. They are pricey tho.

Get at least 2 snappis! LOL!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> There's also the fact that school does not guarantee college. Maybe look up stats on the percentage of kids who actually graduate from high school and then go on to be successful in college. And, of course, college does not guarantee a decent job or a nice life. It can certainly make things easier and better and possibly give you more opportunities but, then, maybe not. There a lot of people with college degrees who are either not working or working at menial, minimum wage jobs because that's all they could get. Meanwhile, they have huge student loan debts that they may never get paid off. Plus, there are several ways to get to college these days. It doesn't have to be 12 consecutive years of public school followed immediately by 4 years of undergrad, and so on.


True that! I only used my bachelors degree for my retail jobs, believe it or not. They didn't care that I had a degree when I got my spa job, they only cared about my certification.

You're describing me! I'm paying $170 a month paying off my loans. I still have a couple thousand left to pay off. I've been out of college since 2003. It would be one thing if I were using the degree, but I'm not. I mean, I had a great time in college, but ...

I wanted to go to cosmetology school out of high school but my mother said no. I didn't want loans but she said it was the right thing to do, to have opportunities in the future. I was so angry about that. Still am! And so is chris since he is paying for it!


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

DH is still paying on student loans, and will be for a long time - he started with around 40K when we got married. He uses his degree - it's an AA for graphic design (Art Institue online, which is why so much $$) but it's not required for his job - his school for massage therapy was a gift from MIL. And he is using that, obviously. His AA comes in handy for when he's working on the business website and marketing materials.

I have about an assoc worth of credit hours, loan free. I'd get my bachelors if I was wanting to move into a career that required it, like nursing. I make decent $$ without a degree, proof that it's not absolutely necessary. I have no problem with people putting aside money for college educations, but I also hate the assumption that we SHOULD be doing that. Sorry, we don't exactly have an excess of funds, and if we did, that's just not a priority for us. I'd rather grandparents, relatives, etc, just give us $$ straight up and let us decide what to do with it. DH's gr. grandma is always asking about bank accounts for the kids, etc. They don't have their own accounts. why? Plus, for me, getting my own account was kind of a milestone, and special, and I'd like to keep that up for the kids (I was 10, I think)

How do the grovias fit on a newbie? I had them when they were grobaby and I wasn't horribly fond. but I also had the aplix version which SUCKED. The prints are sooo cute. I never really needed more than one snappi - unless I misplaced one . . .hmm


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I think that's plenty of covers. I usually try to have 3 days worth of diapers. That would be 36 for a newborn.

Carrie ~ Too bad you can't send the bills to your mother. My mom actually said she wanted to pay off my student loans for me a while ago but then didn't follow through with it. I think she just forgot. It's ok. We don't really need to her. It would be nice, though. It would free up about $200 a month.

I have bank accounts for all the kids. I put $10 in each one each month. It's not for college. It's just to have some money saved for whatever they may need, like a car or an apartment or furniture. Ethan used some of his to buy a Nintendo DSi. Ryan has used some to pay for car stuff.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

If I get the AIO I want, I'd probably have about that many - but with 2 in diapers, the diaper pail is usually full after 2 full days of diapering, I rarely make it 3 full days without doing laundry (and that's with 2 toddlers) I do diapers 2-3 times a week, depending on poops. Norah is pooping alot. Gabe is going naked butt as much as I can, and he has been doing really well on the potty, pee wise. Need to get him to use the big potty, so we can start maybe trying to go diaper free out of the house too.

The kids will likely have bank accounts at some point, I'm just in no rush for it.

MIL pays for DH's car payment, and we pay for the student loans. It used to be 1/2 and 1/2 of each, but that seemed silly, since the payments are about equal. She will be done paying on the car long before we are done on the loans. UGH.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Student loans...ugh don't even get me started. My parents have paid some of mine but I still have some. DSS 17 is looking at schools and honestly, I don't know where he thinks the money is coming from to pay for even the first semester at a community college. DH has made it clear that we don't have it. Maybe his mom has some money stashed away that she isn't talking about or maybe one of her relatives has agreed to pay for him to go to our local community college. IDK. I've been trying to get DH to take him to talk to the Airforce recruiter.

GroVias...I have the AI2s and I love them. They are very trim though so they are only good when I can change DD frequently. I think they would fit a newb well. Ava still has plenty of room to grow in her Flips and 4.0s but she's almost at the end of the GroVias.

Signs...yeah I know that's what she's signing and I should just run with it. She modified "potty" too so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

At what age do you guys feel comfortable setting boundaries for milk? I feel like Ava is asking for it more and she's starting to walk around again just holding the bottle in her mouth. I tried today just giving her milk at sleep times and I guess it went ok but I don't know. It doesn't feel quite right. She didn't get upset or anything. She asked for it once when she woke up but I didn't have any ready because I needed to pump so I told her she could have some later and then she didn't ask me again. I gave her a full bottle when she went down for her nap. What do you guys think?


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> At what age do you guys feel comfortable setting boundaries for milk? I feel like Ava is asking for it more and she's starting to walk around again just holding the bottle in her mouth. I tried today just giving her milk at sleep times and I guess it went ok but I don't know. It doesn't feel quite right. She didn't get upset or anything. She asked for it once when she woke up but I didn't have any ready because I needed to pump so I told her she could have some later and then she didn't ask me again. I gave her a full bottle when she went down for her nap. What do you guys think?


I don't really know. Can you try giving it to her in a cup? I give Dylan a sippy cup with water every day but he still nurses a lot. Today he got a hold of one of the older kids Capri Sun and ran away drinking it.









Oh, I think dh took my advice about not having to do so much and simplifying his life. He has gotten take out for dinner for the last 4 nights.


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

I miss you guys!! I've been reading along, but almost always on my phone, and I've been trying to do productive things while I'm on the computer (like backlog of photo editing, since my computer seems like it's about to bite the dust!)

Lauri-- Does she have water offered in a sippy? I try to always have a sippy of water around for Tenley to grab. She only really gets milk in a bottle or sippy when I'm not around though, so I'll have to ask DH and the babysitter what the 'procedure' is for that. I don't think she normally has it for cruising around, if I'm not home, it's really more for sleep time or meal times. I would think at 18 months ish it's reasonable for you to offer water to her and see if she's satisfied with that. If not, then obviously I'd give it to her in the cup or bottle. It's hard though, because what you guys go through is different than what my experience is. We try to put off the amount of milk Tenley has from a bottle or sippy, and give it only when she 'needs' it, but that's because I'm not pumping enough/ getting enough to be able to keep up with her demand. If I had unlimited supply or stash in the freezer, then I suppose I'd be a lot more lenient with letting her have it whenever and wherever. But right now, if DH texts me and says he had to thaw a bag of milk, and I know I left them with 6oz fresh or whatever, then I cringe inside, and find myself mentally chastising him for not being able to make that 6oz last longer, even though if she drank it, she obviously wanted it.

So I guess what I'm saying is that health wise, I think she's ok for you to limit her times a bit more. So go off of how YOU feel. I can't imagine exclusively pumping for that long, so I can't even pretend to really understand what you go through, but having this little glimpse of it, I can see how cutting out even one bottle a day, would decrease some stress of not having to pump that milk. *hugs mama* What hard choices you have!!

Kat-- Yay dipes!! I'm finding myself starting to eye pretty dipes again. Like different patterns and fun ones. I love my AMPs for function, but I'm starting to covet the pretty prints some of the other brands have!

We're having stink issues with the dipes btw, and DH is ready to give up. Ugh. It's been like a month of off and on issues, and we can't seem to fully fix them.

I work tomorrow and wed 3-1130. I'll leave the house with Ten at 1pm, leave her at Ash's at 1:45pm, and I won't be home until 12:40am. It's not any longer than the other shifts I work, but it seems so much worse when it's that late at night!!

She's been sleeping like CRAP the last two nights. Up for substantial amounts of time in the middle of the night, babbling and talking and trying to crawl out of bed. Almost as if she doesn't realize it's night time. She's got so much going on, so it could be any number of causes- teeth, so close to being a real walker, language explosions, me being away, more time with daddy, time with cousins. Ugh. So much she's going through.

I graduated from University debt free, but I also have a degree that isn't really worth anything. I call it my expensive artwork, since all it's good for is to hang on the wall and look pretty. But... when I started uni, I really DID want to use it, I just changed my mind along the way. Anyways, I just mean that you -can- get through school without a ton of student loans, it doesn't have to bury you in debt necessarily. Though obviously I also understand that one doesn't -need- to have college or university to have a good career.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

She always has water in a sippy that she has access to. She's been asking for milk around mealtimes, almost as a replacement for a meal. I know her teeth are still really bothering her and it's probably making her sick to her stomach so she doesn't want food? Ugh. My supply is struggling right now and she really really wants milk at bedtimes and I don't want her to go without then so I kind of feel like if I can redirect her, she must not want it too bad. Am I just rationalizing here? I didn't feel good redirecting her. I've increased my pumping sessions again so I'm trying to keep up with her.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Annie/Laurie - If you were nursing, and she was asking frequently, but could be redirected, I'd say that she's probably isn't all that interested, really, I don't know that the theory changes much for pumped milk. BUT if she's not eating solids, I'd kind of be offering the milk, if I could, iykwim. at 18 months, she could be also getting another kind of milk, like almond or soy or coconut if you don't do cow's - if you are worried about her using up your stash/supply.

JJ: I have no brand loyalty, LOL. there are some I know work better for us than others, though. The grovias have such CUTE prints, but even used, they are a little more than I want to spend per diaper. I think I don't want to spend more than 8-10 ppd per diaper. for a used AIO, that's reasonable (though if I could do more like 5-6 per diaper, that would be AWESOME!) there are some co-ops I may look into after the first of the year too.

Sorry Ten's sleep has been crap  it will get better, right?

Now, since you are Canadian, does the state/province/whatever contribute any towards uni? Just curious.

What have you tried on the diapers? and what kind of fibres are the AMPs?

Norah didn't take a second nap yesterday, and Gabe didn't nap at all, so they were OUT by like 7:30. and slept until around 7 this morning. so freaking awesome. I don't want them to do that all the time (we do a lot of family stuff in the evenings this time of year) but hey, it's fabulous when it does.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Annie ~ I would probably give her milk as much as I could. It sounds like maybe she's not feeling great or going through a growth spurt or something and needs that milk. Like Kat said, maybe you could sub another kind of milk sometimes if you don't have enough of your own. I'd give whole organic cow's milk, personally.

Dylan slept really well last night. He fell asleep around 10:30 and only woke twice, once around 2:30 and once around 7:00. He was on the edge of the bed with only me next to him. Ethan and Kellen slept in the middle between me and dh. I wonder if that is what made the difference, him not having other kids squirming next to him.

Stink seems to happen with all diapers at some point. Strip like crazy. You may need to clean your machines, too. Any detergents that you use on your other laundry can get on/in the diapers.


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

Yeah that's true, regarding the milk-- it would depend on whether I thought she was hungry and using it as a substitute for food, or whether she just wanted it out of boredom/comfort. Obviously if she's acting like she's hungry and there's a reason she might not want to be eating solids, then I'd be more inclined to offer the milk. If you're stressing about your supply, and you think she's asking just kind of 'because', then I might try to redirect her first. We have almond milk in the house, as does Ash, so that in between meals and bedtime, if Tenley wants something, she has a bit of that in a cup. She'll drink that kind of casually. But if we give her the sippy with breastmilk in it, she'll down the whole thing, no matter how much it is. Like you, I -need- to make sure the milk is there for bed, so -for us- that means limiting a bit at other times.

Kat- Oh I get it. I mean there are a lot of people in the group here who probably don't have more than 2 of each brand, and they love it. I think part of my AMP brand loyalty is from not liking the first dipes I got, so when I liked the AMPs it's a sure thing, kind of, you know? And obviously being able to support a local mama and local business, makes me even more anxious to support them. But- that said. I'd love some minkee covered or fleece or something, and she doesn't do that. I think now that Tenley is wetting less, I'm going to take a look at some of the lesser quality ones, for like $10 each or less, and just buy some of the cute prints, with the understanding that I won't be able to resell them, or even leave her in them for a long time. But I feel comfortable doing that now-- not so much when she was a newb and I was looking at leaks all the time! lol

The province doesn't contribute any towards schooling, though you can get provincially and federally funded student loans, that are interest free until you graduate. And I think school is a bit cheaper here. An arts degree averages about $4000 a year for tuition. Of course it goes up a bit when you add in all your books, and transportation, library fees, etc etc. My first year I had $2000 worth of scholarships, and I took out a student loan for almost $11,000. But I was living with an aunt who only charged me for groceries and the difference in utilities that resulted from me being there, so it was like living at home. I also worked twice a week. I ended up buying a car at the end of that year with my loan money. lol. The next year I had an education bond come due- it was for about $1200, so it covered almost one semester of tuition, plus I used the extra money from working and from my first years loan. Same thing with third and fourth years... I worked 2-3 days a week pretty much the entire time I was in university. And then I paid off the loan entirely when I decided to drop out after the end of my fourth year. So yeah, I had help with it in small terms, with the $1200 each year, but didn't receive help from my parents other than that for school. They couldn't have paid for it either.

With the whole savings account thing-- We want to set something up. My education bond was actually something my grandparents started when I was a baby. My parents wanted to pay them for watching me (they both went back to work full time pretty early), but my grandparents wouldn't let them. So they just took the money and put it into an account for me. Anyways now we're running into that with Ashleigh- she refuses to let us pay for the babysitting she's doing (average rate here is about $25 a day). She says it's just karma, and she's doing her part, since her sister and her mom do a ton for her (she doesn't drive, so the two of them do all of the driving her kids to and from lessons and montessori etc). Anyways, so I'm tempted to take the money and split it between accounts for her daughters and Tenley. It's not a lot, but I mean, if I do two days a week even, then that $100 a month in theory I could be putting into an account for Tenley, and $50 for each of her kids. $600 a year to save for schooling of some sort isn't bad I guess...

Anyways, I should go- It's 930, and before 1245 I have to prep and cook lunch, eat lunch, shower, get prettied up for work, get Tenley ready to go, oh and nap in there somewhere!! lol


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

Oh, and last night last better. More like normal wakeups, though still up earlier than I was ready for!

The dipes are a normal PUL and microfleece cover/shell, similar to fuzzibunz, and then organic bamboo inserts. Obviously I'm sure it's the inserts that stink. We've tried vinegar washes, we've tried just tons of hot water wash/rinses with no detergent, we've tried soaking. We RLRed them a few days ago, and then the next day we tried to use them, they still smelled, and 4/5 leaked!! So we threw them all back in the washer for more rinses. I did an additional 2 cold water rinses, and 2 hot washes (no soap) yesterday, so I'm crossing my fingers that'll finish clearing everything out.

And yeah, I think we're due for a machine clean too.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

what always works here is washing with blue dawn with lots of rinses; it's how we strip.

Re: other brand diapers: I LOVE the Alvas and GoGreens we have. They are the same design and pattern, but Alvas are made and ship from China (and are a good bit cheaper). They even have a bamboo option: http://www.alvababy.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=60 - and YES you can resell these. They sell like hotcakes on the for sale or trade sites, serioulsy. If you've not already joined the cloth diaper swap on FB, you should, you will see lots of these, some NIP. (I think people buy intending on resale, or because they buy a big lot or in a co op and get extras). They function really well, and I haven't had any leaks.

Yay for good sleep!


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Ava is not a fan of anything other than mama milk! She takes polite little sips and then shoves the cup in my face to drink the rest.







I'm just so frustrated with my supply right now. I know it's because I'm stressed from work and I'm not able to pump as often because life is just busy but geez. And to top it off, I seem to have a clog or something in my left breast, which is my bigger producer. I feel like I can't get it empty, it's sore and my production is down. Ugh. I'll try one of my bigger flanges when I get home tonight.

I'm working day shift today and mama no like! Ava was pissed this morning too. She did not appreciate the change in routine. We usually lounge in bed and snuggle while she's waking up and I had to get up and start getting ready. I tried to get her to snuggle with DH but she didn't want to have anything to do with him.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> At what age do you guys feel comfortable setting boundaries for milk? I feel like Ava is asking for it more and she's starting to walk around again just holding the bottle in her mouth. I tried today just giving her milk at sleep times and I guess it went ok but I don't know. It doesn't feel quite right. She didn't get upset or anything. She asked for it once when she woke up but I didn't have any ready because I needed to pump so I told her she could have some later and then she didn't ask me again. I gave her a full bottle when she went down for her nap. What do you guys think?


It's a milk/nursing/pumping relationship. Your stress and your feelings matter too. I think that although she is asking for it, it's perfectly fine for you to use your judgement and redirect her (or offer an alternative milk) if you don't have enough to offer of your own, or think she needs to wait, or you want her to attempt to eat some solids.

Using me and Finn as an example, if he asks for milk but has JUST nursed within the hour, or has a snack nearby, I will put some almond/soy/ whatever milk in a sippy. Sometimes he rejects that, but usually not. But it depends on how he is about it. If he's upset or clingy as well, I would nurse him. If he seems just bored/hungry/thirsty, and alternative is always an option.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> My supply is struggling right now and she really really wants milk at bedtimes and I don't want her to go without then so I kind of feel like if I can redirect her, she must not want it too bad. Am I just rationalizing here? I didn't feel good redirecting her. I've increased my pumping sessions again so I'm trying to keep up with her.


I don't think it's rationalizing. It's setting a boundary. I think that's perfectly fine.

That said...

I'm noticing now that Finn drains me so fast and then asks for a snack. So. I got myself some herbs and tea and oats and am chugging water to see if it's a supply issue. So I think I"m actually going thru the same thing you are. Maybe it's a growth spurt for both Ava and Finnley?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> Dylan slept really well last night. He fell asleep around 10:30 and only woke twice, once around 2:30 and once around 7:00. He was on the edge of the bed with only me next to him. Ethan and Kellen slept in the middle between me and dh. I wonder if that is what made the difference, him not having other kids squirming next to him.\


Ooh yay for a good night!

Finn sleeps way better with out Nora in the bed. She joins us some nights, a couple times a month if she has a bad dream or is frightened of something. The two of them are such bedhogs!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *onetwoten*
> 
> Oh, and last night last better. More like normal wakeups, though still up earlier than I was ready for!
> 
> ...


Hooray to you too for sleep!

I hope you figure out the stink soon. Ours was def detergent build up. I would use a drop or two of bleach, honestly, or oxiclean to see if that helps.

What does the stink smell like? Fishy, ammonia-y, poopy? Is it just musty?

Chris is in NYC til late, Nora is at school, and Finn is currently napping. AHHHHHH.. Relaxing for a few min before I start wrapping presents.


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

She was a little bit fishy last week but it only lasted a day or so. The diapers mostly smell like ammonia. They're bad enough just peed in but once they say in a diaper pail for a while it was enough to make you choke! It's not poopy or dirty smelling though. Was a bit sour last week around te same time as her fishy smell-- i think she wasn't getting enough fluids and was bordering infection but t seems to have cleared up.

She's Ina cloth now, well see how it goes! She peed on the potty three times this am, so no wet diapers so I couldn't check the smell! Lpl


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Enh; my diapers smell like ammonia once peed in too (especially the overnight one) - once left for a while in the pail, especially. Pee is ammonia. I am only concerned if they STILL smell after being washed. Wouldn't hurt to up fluids.

And hooray for EC! man, there are times I wish I was gung ho enough to do it. Potty training one at a time is enough though.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *onetwoten*
> 
> She was a little bit fishy last week but it only lasted a day or so. The diapers mostly smell like ammonia. They're bad enough just peed in but once they say in a diaper pail for a while it was enough to make you choke!


Can you get Funk Rock? That stuff completely eliminates the ammonia smell. One small scoop in every hot wash and no more ammonia.

http://www.diaperjunction.com/rockin-green-funk-rock-ammonia-bouncer.html

Chris won't be home til 1030! TV and guilt free computer time since I got the kiddos bathed and in bed by 815!!!


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Yay for kid free time! whoo!

28 weeks today! I feel fine, I'm tired, but oh well. Sleep is starting to get uncomfortable (I need to bring in more pillows) - only 12-14 more weeks to go!

I am so ready for Christmas to be here!


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

You guys, I'm freaking out over here! I think I have a clog but I don't know how to unclog it w/out a nursling. And WTF, getting a clog after 16 months? My left breast will not empty and there's a red spot. But I can't feel any noticeable lump. Any ideas?


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

sounds like a deep one - pump, heat, massage? IDK if this thread is helpful: http://www.ivillage.com/forums/pregnancy-parenting/babies/exclusively-pumping/exclusively-pumping-intros-chat/blocked-duct-help


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

That did help. Thanks akind1! I'm going to try to hit the breastfeeding clinic after Ava's visit this afternoon to see if they can help as well.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Annie ~ What Kat said, heat, massage and pump.Drink lots of water/fluids. Do cabbage leaves help with that? I can never remember if that's for a clogged duct or to dry up milk if you are done and engorged. Also, ha! I know it's next to impossible but extra rest.

JJ ~ Ammonia smell is normal with pee, especially once babies start eating foods other than breastmilk. You can try blue Dawn and/or boiling. Do a vinegar rinse every time. Vinegar reacts with the urea in urine to neutralize it and get rid of/prevent that ammonia smell.

Kat ~ Glad you are feeling well.

I'm brand loyal with diapers if I find one I really like. With Ethan and Kellen, I loved Righteous Baby. I guess they went out of business because I couldn't find them anywhere when I was collecting diapers for Dylan and no one recently CDing had heard of them. (That tells you how long I've been CDing.







) I have a bit of a hodge podge now but that's from trying different ones for Dylan. I've settled on Sun Seedlings (I think). I really like them. She uses hemp and they are reasonably priced.

Carrie ~ Is tanning in a tanning bed considered dangerous in the same way as being in the sun is? If so, then it's probably not dangerous at all as long as you don't overdo it. 5-7 minutes a week or whatever is probably fine.

Dylan is sick. He has a fever and is very fussy and clingy.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Yes, tanning carries the same dangers as sun exposure, but more concentrated.







It ages the skin more as well, and that's def not something I need. I'm already seeing wrinkles I don't like!

I got some loose herbs and made tea and it's so delicious. I'm drinking it iced. Delicious and hoping it helps my milk supply!

Lauri - hop in the shower - as hot as you can stand it, and massage the sore spot. Don't attack it or kill it or hurt yourself. Just massage with the heat from the clog toward the nipple. If you can express a little, you might be able to see where the clog is and dislodge it. I was able to do that once, it was like a grain of salt it was so small. Once i got it out of my nip, milk sprayed out of that hole and my breast immediately softened.

I've also heard you can rake over the clog with a wide tooth comb.

but don't make the mistake of hurting or bruising yourself. Most likely it will dislodge itself with time, massage, heat, and pumping. I've never had a nursling pull a clog out, I've always had to manipulate it myself.

Also, start taking lecithin. It will help prevent future clogs.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Well, I don't believe in all the hype about the "dangers" of sun exposure so, again, I think that a few minutes once a week in a tanning bed for the purpose you are talking about would probably be ok. And, maybe you need to think long and hard about your fear of aging or not being "thin and perfect".







There used to be a time when wrinkles signaled wisdom and commanded respect rather than being ugly and a sign of the "I disease of aging."









I've been having the strangest dreams lately. First, I had a dream that dh was cheating on me very blatantly. When I asked him to stop he said he wouldn't because he liked what he was doing and didn't really care about me. I have always periodically had dreams like that. I don't know what they signify because I don't have any fear that he will or is cheating. I guess there is some fear that he will eventually leave me.







Then I dreamed that the police came and took Dylan away from me. I can't remember why now but that was a horrible feeling. One night I dreamed I was spitting up clots of blood and choking. Oh, that was after I dreamed that I had a boyfriend who was a lifeguard and didn't mind me hanging out at the pool with my child while he was working. The big feeling from that dream was that the boyfriend didn't mind having me around. Last night I dreamed that I was visiting my dad and there were all these strange people hanging out in his house partying and drinking like crazy. He ended up in a bed sick and helpless and basically unconscious while all these strange people were drinking and vomiting all over his house. My stepsister was there hanging out with all the weirdos. I was scared for myself and my dad. These are continuous scary, bad dreams every night for however many nights that is, at least. I think I've had more but can't remember them all. It's one thing to have a bad dream every once in a while but at least one every night for a week or so? What do you suppose that means?


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Are you having a lot of anxiety in general? usually dream meanings are far from literal and more about the emotions. Like with Sean - do you feel like he kind of does what he wants, even if it might hurt you, regardless of your feelings? With your dad, is that a situation you feel sort of helpless in? just throwing out some ideas.

Sun . . . I think yes, too much exposure is not a good thing for our skin (melanoma is a real thing) - but like everything else, I think some people are more predisposed towards it than others. I don't like burning, so unless I'm in a situation that might get me a sun burn, I don't use sunscreen, and I so far have good skin. I think with wrinkles its far more about keeping moisturized than anything else. Stay hydrated and use good oil free moisturizer. I'd do sun if you can before a tanning bed.

Hope the tea helps carrie!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

There's nothing new going on that is causing me anxiety. I don't feel overly anxious or any more anxious about anything than before. I do think that dh does what he wants regardless of how I feel. I've told him that many, many times. I remember him telling me that he read in a book once that men should let women talk because that would appease them without really having to care about what they are saying. I told him that was BS but, like I said, he doesn't listen to me.

I've read that melanoma usually occurs on parts of the skin that aren't normally exposed to the sun.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Ava's appt went fairly well. She was a basketcase at the beginning and I thought we weren't going to be able to finish the EKG. She peed all over the exam table during the EKG because she wouldn't let me put a diaper back on her after her weight check. She calmed down after that was over and even had a good time playing with one of her cardiologists. Her pulmonary arteries are a little too small but they are growing and the pressure in her right ventricle is just a smidge higher than it should be. So we're ok for now. But we will need to go an interventional cath at some point to try to widen her pulmonary arteries to buy us time before the next surgery. Caths involve general anesthesia so never enjoy that. But if it puts off surgery then I guess it's a good thing.

I paged lactation after we were done and met with one of the LCs. As soon as she saw my left breast, she said it was the beginning of mastitis and I need to start abx ASAP. So I texted my GP (Ava's godmother) and she called in a script for me. I hope it helps. My production is SO LOW in my left breast right now. I hope getting the inflammation down will let the milk come out. In the meantime, I bought some of the single serve Horizon vanilla milk containers to see if I can get her to drink that in a bottle. I'm going to use a different bottle and nipple and let her see me pour the milk in so she knows it's not mama milk. Hopefully it won't piss her off too bad.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Horizon vanilla milk was the first non-mama milk Gabe had that he liked. He won't drink any regualar milks - only flavored ones. Which is why he still doesn't drink much milk, because chocolate milk is a treat.

Glad her appointment went all together well, and yeah, anesthesia sucks, but a cath is better than open heart surgery. FX things continue to grow!

MW: I can only speak from personal (well, sort of) experience - all the melanomas I've seen DH's grandpa get have been on his face and arms - the man is always covered in band aids from having another removed. I of course, wouldn't know if he might also have bandaids in places covered by clothes LOL. He's the only one I know that regularly gets them removed, so that's the only experience I have with it.

And yeah, I can see that attitude of his maybe spilling into dreamworld. It's gotta erupt somewhere, and sometimes that's in our dreams.

I dreamt last night of coffee. Big surprise there.

I slept well last night and seem rested, which is wonderful. Need more nights like that. Really, my nights are rarely interrupted anymore - DH usually will go lay with whichever kid wakes up at night, if one does - it's just only sleeping 5-6 hours a night is not enough. So last night I went to bed at 11:30, woke up when Norah did around 5, laid back down with her until 7. Not bad.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> Ava's appt went fairly well. She was a basketcase at the beginning and I thought we weren't going to be able to finish the EKG. She peed all over the exam table during the EKG because she wouldn't let me put a diaper back on her after her weight check. She calmed down after that was over and even had a good time playing with one of her cardiologists. Her pulmonary arteries are a little too small but they are growing and the pressure in her right ventricle is just a smidge higher than it should be. So we're ok for now. But we will need to go an interventional cath at some point to try to widen her pulmonary arteries to buy us time before the next surgery. Caths involve general anesthesia so never enjoy that. But if it puts off surgery then I guess it's a good thing.
> 
> I paged lactation after we were done and met with one of the LCs. As soon as she saw my left breast, she said it was the beginning of mastitis and I need to start abx ASAP. So I texted my GP (Ava's godmother) and she called in a script for me. I hope it helps. My production is SO LOW in my left breast right now. I hope getting the inflammation down will let the milk come out. In the meantime, I bought some of the single serve Horizon vanilla milk containers to see if I can get her to drink that in a bottle. I'm going to use a different bottle and nipple and let her see me pour the milk in so she knows it's not mama milk. Hopefully it won't piss her off too bad.


Glad her appt went well (besides the pee! ooof!) and that there is time before the next surgery. ((hugs)) for getting thru it!









Glad too you can get on abx quickly. It's terrifying to be on the verge of mastitis -- you probably could knock it out with Poke Root if you wanted to try that. Watch out for thrush once you're on the abx. It can happen b/w you and the pump so make sure everything gets cleaned and dried thoroughly! I hope she takes the cows milk easily. I find that Finn accepts the soymilk if I make sure to say SOY milk instead of just "milk" and hand it to him. I also do the sign for "drink" instead of the one for milk when I say soymilk. He equates the "milk" sign with boob.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> I dreamt last night of coffee. Big surprise there.
> 
> I slept well last night and seem rested, which is wonderful. Need more nights like that. Really, my nights are rarely interrupted anymore - DH usually will go lay with whichever kid wakes up at night, if one does - it's just only sleeping 5-6 hours a night is not enough. So last night I went to bed at 11:30, woke up when Norah did around 5, laid back down with her until 7. Not bad.


LOL coffee!

Thats some decent sleep! I hope it keeps up. Do you usually get insomnia in the 3rd tri? I do. Bad.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

The Horizon vanilla milk was a big hit! I let her watch me open it and had her taste it from the straw first. She took a long draw on the straw and said "Yum!" Kind of makes me sad but I happy to have a substitute if needed. I put it in a bottle with a different nipple and she drank 2 oz and brought to me for more. Of course, after 2 doses of abx, my production is back up so I'm not going to push the cow's milk but again, nice to know we have it for a pinch.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

I am not usually prone to insomnia, just need to pee alot at night. I'm good if I only wake once a night to pee.

Gabe is starting to draw things and tell us what they are. Mostly mountains, faces, kites and helicopters. Granted, I don't know they look representational yet. But it's something!

Lauri - hooray on liking the milk - it's also nice to have something ready you can hand her with a straw. or if you are out and about and forget to bring stuff with you (maybe you are not as prone to that as I am) - but a lot of places carry the Horizon milk boxes.

Norah is pulling down my shirt alot lately just to poke my nipples. doesn't want to try to nurse again, just poke and pinch. Nursing would be ok. pinching, not so much.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Annie ~ Glad the appointment went well. What goes into getting a catheter? Glad your supply is back up, too. Everything seems to be working out ok.

I had another scary dream last night. I was taking my kids and one other in my car. I got everyone but Kellen in their car seats. I had to reposition Kellen's. As I was doing that the car took off. I didn't notice we were moving at first. We were on a steep mountain road going downhill very fast and flew into a bunch of trees. I vaguely remember thinking or feeling that Kellen and I were thrown from the car but I think I woke up then. Gah! I am not liking these dreams. Oh, but then I had a sex dream when I fell back to sleep. hehe


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

I think with melanoma, the link between it being found in places where sun isn't normally exposed, isn't that actually related to tanning beds? ie your skin isn't used to dealing with sun on your bare breasts or your bum, so it's more susceptible to the burns etc that allow the cells to start changing?

I'm ok with the sun, and I don't put sunscreen on unless I'm going to be out for a while or it's pretty hot, but I can't bring myself to do the tanning beds anymore. I lost a girl I went to school with to melanoma. She left behind her year old daughter and husband. I just can't imagine. I used to be ok with the risk-- the boost to my emotional well being was worth the increased risk, but not anymore.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> Ava's appt went fairly well. She was a basketcase at the beginning and I thought we weren't going to be able to finish the EKG. She peed all over the exam table during the EKG because she wouldn't let me put a diaper back on her after her weight check. She calmed down after that was over and even had a good time playing with one of her cardiologists. Her pulmonary arteries are a little too small but they are growing and the pressure in her right ventricle is just a smidge higher than it should be. So we're ok for now. But we will need to go an interventional cath at some point to try to widen her pulmonary arteries to buy us time before the next surgery. Caths involve general anesthesia so never enjoy that. But if it puts off surgery then I guess it's a good thing.
> 
> I paged lactation after we were done and met with one of the LCs. As soon as she saw my left breast, she said it was the beginning of mastitis and I need to start abx ASAP. So I texted my GP (Ava's godmother) and she called in a script for me. I hope it helps. My production is SO LOW in my left breast right now. I hope getting the inflammation down will let the milk come out. In the meantime, I bought some of the single serve Horizon vanilla milk containers to see if I can get her to drink that in a bottle. I'm going to use a different bottle and nipple and let her see me pour the milk in so she knows it's not mama milk. Hopefully it won't piss her off too bad.


Oh I'm so glad it went well! I've been thinking of you guys!

Tenley is kind of the same with accepting milk as long as it's presented as being different. She gets almond milk when I'm not home and it's not bedtime/naptime. Well last night Rob grabbed the wrong bottle, and heated up almond milk for her at bed. She took a couple sips and then made faces and threw it back at him. |He realized what he'd done, and went and warmed the breastmilk instead. He said he had to practically force her to take the nipple in her mouth, and then she finally did-- her face lit up, she squealed, and started frantically signing milk!!!!! And then she grabbed the bottle and downed the whole thing. So yeah... she likes almond milk, but not if it's trying to be passed off as real milk. lol

I'm off now until Monday. Need this so bad!! THe house isn't terribly dirty, so I'm going to do a quick clean today to keep things in order, and then we should have lots of family time and productive time this weekend <3. I think I'm going to try to convince DH to go to Ikea tonight for shopping playing and maybe dinner too.

Oh, we talked about his "surprise" he other day. He felt horrible and said he totally understand how I felt, and how it seemed like he was not listening to me. He said that we had talked about it in the past and I had not specifically shot down "that one/that kind" so he thought that was ok. I was like well no... I didn't reaize I had to say no to each and every toy available! lol Anyways, so we had a really good talk. And he spent two days bringing me home nice treats like donuts, and cooking breakfast for me, and rubbing my back. So it's all good!! lol

So... Tenley is a master gift opener, and upset I won't let her open all the gifts under the tree.

Good thoughts and prayers! Rob got a call back for an EMS dispatch job. He does the testing next Friday. I feel like I'm a basketcase waiting. It would be such a blessing for soooo many reasons. Increase in pay, better location in terms of getting to work (he could even bike in the summer), it's in his actual field, and I think he'd be so much happier there. Plus the company he works for now is so about to go under, because they suck.


----------



## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *onetwoten*
> 
> I think with melanoma, the link between it being found in places where sun isn't normally exposed, isn't that actually related to tanning beds? ie your skin isn't used to dealing with sun on your bare breasts or your bum, so it's more susceptible to the burns etc that allow the cells to start changing?
> 
> I'm ok with the sun, and I don't put sunscreen on unless I'm going to be out for a while or it's pretty hot, but I can't bring myself to do the tanning beds anymore. I lost a girl I went to school with to melanoma. She left behind her year old daughter and husband. I just can't imagine. I used to be ok with the risk-- the boost to my emotional well being was worth the increased risk, but not anymore.


I don't really know what the thing was with melanoma in areas not usually exposed to the skin but I don't recall any mention of tanning beds in the article I read. Is 5 minutes in a tanning bed once a week as risky as using one regularly the way most people do? I don't know. I haven't used a tanning bed for probably around 20 years so I don't really keep up on the news about them. When I did use one I think I was in it for 20-30 minutes at a time once I got used to it. I don't burn easily, though, so maybe I could handle it for longer periods that most people.









The only time I ever wear sunscreen is if I'm going to be in the sun for several hours.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

I've never been interested in using tanning beds. I've used self tanner, though.

JJ: will be keeing fx for Rob! how exciting! And yeah, I've had to put all the gifts up - Norah is a master of shredding.

And yay on good talks!

MW: boo to scary dreams, but yay on sexy ones! LOL


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

I'm not entirely sure, I haven't looked into it in detail recently either. I do agree though that a few minutes at a time is much lower risk than 20 minutes 5 times a weeks for ex. Those doing 20-25 mins tend to be much more likely to overdo it, and burn plus the skin has more exposure to the uv to start undergoing cellular changes. I'm sure 5 min twice a week really would be fine. I'm just so nervous about it now.

We're trying out one nap a day for the next few days I think. I've been trying o get her down around 10am and she fights it until 1045 or so and then sleeps until 1145... And hen doesn't want to take a second nap until like 3. That's ok when I'm home hit when she's at the sitters it's a mess. Her not getting up until almost noon makes us rush to get ready, and then dh gets to the babysitters in the afternoon and normally has to wait for her to wake up, or wake her up early. Yesterday she did t nap at the sitters at all, then fell asleep from 415-545, and then was a mess to get Down for bed.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Norah really WANTS 2 naps - the problem is, she doesn't always do them - I can't spend forever putting her down twice a day, and if the first nap is running into lunch, the little piglet is of course going to hold out for food. So a lot of days are just one nap, after lunch, for about 1-3 hours. It varies.

She does usually end up cat napping before dinner, regardless.

Gabe is napping now - he has not peed during a nap since I started leaving him naked for them - he usually will go to the potty on his own once he wakes up. He doesn't want to be asked at all anymore about going to use the potty, but won't always go on his own either. I sure hope Norah transitions to pottying easier.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Dylan has been down to one afternoon nap for quite a while now. He cut out that morning nap before he was 1.

Do you know how strange it is to say that I haven't done something for 20 years and I was an adult the last time I did it?


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

No, but I will be able to say that in another 7 or 8 years 

I really hope Gabe still naps once the new baby arrives. I LOVE his naps.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Yeah, try 1 nap. Finn naps from around 12 til 3 most days. It sucks b/c it's smack in the middle of the day, but it works for us. We just do errands in the am.

The melanomas in odd places come more from missing those places with sunscreen. Soles of the feet, in b/w toes, backs of the ears, etc. Over the years, with sun exposure, you can develop skin cancers in those areas. Tanning beds are about 3 times as strong as the sun.

JJ I'm sorry about your friend. YOu know I don't take this lightly. I used to fake and bake ALL the time, 3-4 times a week, 12 min at a time. I loved how i looked w/a tan and I was so thin too!!! But I couldn't do that now with what I know.

I'm also fair, blue eyed and blond, so my risk is high. I burn all the time. It takes me a long time to even tan off, and it doesn't last. I've had many bad burns (sun poisoning even) so I'm at higher risk.

But that said, I don't apply sunscreen daily. Only at the shore or during the summer on my arms and face for long walks. otherwise, I'll be a lobster and blister up.

I do the same for the kids. If we are out by the pool i use SPF 50 on them. I don't want them to burn.

OMG about those dreams MW!! I don't dream that vivid unless I'm pg. I always remember my dreams, tho. Many ppl don't or can't. Are you into dream interpretation? You can look online or get a book about them.

Kids well visits went ok. It was CHAOS. I wouldn't have survived if DH didn't come. Thank goodness he took the day (and tmw) off!!! Nora was a CHAMP! She was timid but performed well on the tests. She is on the same curve for her weight so I don't need to worry. Finn is of course a beast.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

akind1, that's awesome that he stays dry during a nap. Baby steps, you know? He won't go to college in a pull-up!

Tanning beds...hmmm. I used to use them when I was younger. I love them. So warm and cozy. I go to sleep every time I'm in there even if it's just for 8 mins. I don't think there's anything wrong with it in moderation but from what I've seen, it can be addicting. I've been taking 5000 iu of Vit D to help for winter blues and immune support. Maybe bump up your D?

Ava is down to one nap and I actually prefer it. We can go out in the morning, have an adventure and then come home and she generally naps 1.5-2 hrs then it's time to go to the sitter. Easy peasy. She only got a 20 min nap yesterday so she went to bed at 6:30 PM and slept until 7:30 AM this morning. She didn't need milk past 2 AM. Not too shabby. That was just one wake-up for me. And I think she only took one bottle after she went down for DH so just two bottles.

MW, for a cardiac cath, it will require some stuff like it does when she has surgery. So she will have pre-cath bloodwork and will need an IV started. She will have to be NPO for 6ish hours leading up to the cath because she will be under general anesthesia. All stuff she hates. Then after the cath, she has to lay still for a few hours to avoid blood clots. I'm hoping that we can avoid the cath for at least another year so that she's easier to reason with, you know? She got herself so worked up at the beginning of the appointment that I couldn't get her to calm down. She didn't want her milk, she didn't want DH to touch her, she just clung to me and screamed.







Once the nurse left though, she calmed down some.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> MW, for a cardiac cath, it will require some stuff like it does when she has surgery. So she will have pre-cath bloodwork and will need an IV started. She will have to be NPO for 6ish hours leading up to the cath because she will be under general anesthesia. All stuff she hates. Then after the cath, she has to lay still for a few hours to avoid blood clots. I'm hoping that we can avoid the cath for at least another year so that she's easier to reason with, you know? She got herself so worked up at the beginning of the appointment that I couldn't get her to calm down. She didn't want her milk, she didn't want DH to touch her, she just clung to me and screamed.
> 
> ...


Aw, poor baby.







IDK if a year from now she'll be more understanding.







One day she will understand. What's NPO? I was really wondering about the anesthesia. I was thinking she'd need general. That is scary.

It is very strange to say that I did something 20 years ago. I can't believe I've been alive this long. When I was a teenager I swore I would not live past 30.









I am interested in dream interpretation but haven't bought any books on it. I've googled a few things but most sites that are free don't make much sense.

I prefer one nap. It frees up a lot more of the day. We can run out in the morning. Home for a late afternoon nap and then run out again in the early evening if I need to. It works for us most of the time. Sometimes Dylan doesn't take a nap until late, like 4 or 5 pm. That can be a bit of a pita because then he's up later at night but sometimes it works. Since I don't have a schedule I have to keep with school or work it all works out.

He took a 3 hour nap today! That was so nice after so many days of short naps because he's been sick and fussy. I almost woke him up at 6 but decided to let him sleep.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> Aw, poor baby.
> 
> ...


NPO is technically "nil per os" which means nothing by mouth. So no food or drink leading up to the anesthesia. I just can't imagine trying to keep an IV in her right now. She was pulling everything off of her as fast as we could put it on like her pulse/ox on her toe and all the leads for her EKG. When she had her surgery in Jan, they put her IV in head and she never touched it. My hope is that when we need to do it, she will be old enough that we can tell her not to touch it, you know? General anesthesia and cardiac caths scare the crap out of me almost as much as surgery. Any time they are in doing stuff with the heart, things can happen. Patients can have allergic reactions to the contrast dye that's used, the manipulation of the heart can cause a heart attack, etc. Definitely not a walk in the park, you know? But recovery tends to just be a couple of days so that's good.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I thought it had something to do with no food or drink. How long is that for? I can't imagine. Poor baby and poor mama.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> I thought it had something to do with no food or drink. How long is that for? I can't imagine. Poor baby and poor mama.


Typically it's no formula/food starting 6 hrs before procedure, clear fluids until 4 hrs before procedure. Breastmilk falls under the "clear fluids" guidelines so that's good. Miraculously, both times she's needed to be NPO, aside from the two newborn instances which weren't really that big of deal because they hadn't started her on feeds yet, she slept until it was either time to leave for the hospital or time to head down to the OR so there wasn't hours of her begging for food and not being able to give it to her. That's one of my nightmares. I always push for first case so she doesn't have to go past 7 AM w/out food or water.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> I always push for first case so she doesn't have to go past 7 AM w/out food or water.


That makes sense and, thank goodness you can do that.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

I've never been one to schedule my day around naps - Norah sleeps quite often in the car, and will transfer asleep to my back or a stroller, so if need be, she can catch her zzzs that way. Quite honestly, sometimes she sleeps longer there than at home. Yesterday she took less than an hour nap around lunchtime, than slept on the way to lights at the zoo at 6, and stayed asleep for most of that - so well over an hour. Sad part was, by the time she was awake, she was loving it, but Gabe was really ready to go - his hands were cold and he was tired. oh well, we have more holiday stuff on our to-do list!

Lauri - you and Ava are just amazing - I know you do what you have to do, but both of you do it well. I hope her vessels continue to grow well so hopefully you can delay procedures as long as possible.

Carrie - yay for DH's not working and good well visits! Finn weighs as much as Gabe I think! LOL.

AFM: I'm counting down not to giving birth (I'm kind of trying to ignore that part) but to having a new nursling. I MISS breastfeeding so much! I didn't feel that way when Gabe weaned. But I nursed him longer than Norah. only 12 more weeks! ish.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> AFM: I'm counting down not to giving birth (I'm kind of trying to ignore that part) but to having a new nursling. I MISS breastfeeding so much! I didn't feel that way when Gabe weaned. But I nursed him longer than Norah. only 12 more weeks! ish.


One of my friends had a baby a few days ago. We were texting about newborn nursing challenges. I got all gushy thinking about a newborn nursling.


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

Hey ladies, sorry I have been MIA.

Still getting used to getting on here.

There is a lot that has been going on. Hubby applying for a new job and hopefully getting it. Increase pay and better benefits.

Great-grandma didn't go in the home after all. She just refused. So now we may have to hire a nurse to go in her house every so often to help her.

I have talked things out with my SIL. To make life easier for my husband and her husband (his brother!) Its my one last chance. I am so done after this.

I know I am way too forgiving sometimes. lol

Now, I am going to catch up on what you ladies have been up to and try to respond when I am done if Eddie didn't wake up from his nap. lol


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

JJ- About Ten and wanting to open gifts. I personally would put the gifts up until Christmas Eve when she is sleeping. That would be less headaches for you.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

EM - glad things are going well for you - or seem to be!

Our weekend just got a little freed up - a birthday party got delayed due to sickness. oh well.

Newborn nursling! *sigh* I have a preorder in for a dozen newborn AIO, so between those and my prefolds and covers, I should be golden! I think, birth is so unpredictable, I am just not going to worry about until it happens. LOL. breastfeeding - I know I can handle, and I love it, so I'm focusing on that part.

I am really, really, really hoping that this baby makes up his mind to come a little closer to "on time" - I hate waiting the extra 2 weeks. But, what will be, will be. At least my OB is perfectly comfortable with me cooking the baby that long. She's like, well, your first two did, and this one isn't likely to be much different. So while, not particularly helpful, means that there shouldn't be a lot of pressure when my due date comes around and I'm still pregnant.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> Newborn nursling! *sigh* I have a preorder in for a dozen newborn AIO, so between those and my prefolds and covers, I should be golden! I think, birth is so unpredictable, I am just not going to worry about until it happens. LOL. breastfeeding - I know I can handle, and I love it, so I'm focusing on that part.
> 
> I am really, really, really hoping that this baby makes up his mind to come a little closer to "on time" - I hate waiting the extra 2 weeks. But, what will be, will be. At least my OB is perfectly comfortable with me cooking the baby that long. She's like, well, your first two did, and this one isn't likely to be much different. So while, not particularly helpful, means that there shouldn't be a lot of pressure when my due date comes around and I'm still pregnant.


It's so nice to not having anyone hassle you about your EDD. I find it interesting that you have always gone two weeks over. I'm sure I've asked before and you've explained before but how is your EDD calculated? Is everyone going by lmp or ovulation or u/s measurements?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EuroMama*
> 
> JJ- About Ten and wanting to open gifts. I personally would put the gifts up until Christmas Eve when she is sleeping. That would be less headaches for you.


We don't have any Christmas stuff up or out. I won't put any presents out until Christmas Eve. DH wants to get a tree this weekend but I think I'll tell him to wait until next. I have enough on my plate without having to spend a week trying to keep Dylan away from a tree.

EM ~ You said you were looking for an active group. You've found one.


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> It's so nice to not having anyone hassle you about your EDD. I find it interesting that you have always gone two weeks over. I'm sure I've asked before and you've explained before but how is your EDD calculated? Is everyone going by lmp or ovulation or u/s measurements?
> We don't have any Christmas stuff up or out. I won't put any presents out until Christmas Eve. DH wants to get a tree this weekend but I think I'll tell him to wait until next. I have enough on my plate without having to spend a week trying to keep Dylan away from a tree.
> EM ~ You said you were looking for an active group. You've found one.


Lol. Just didn't know my life was going to be this active either. lolol


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

With Gabe we went originally by my ovulation date, I think, then adjusted it a couple days based on early ultrasound. He was induced at 41+6. Norah, also born at 41+6, but the dr's had me listed a week less, based on the early ultrasound (my date was based on O; theirs on the ultrasound, which I'm sure was not correct) - so as far as my chart goes, it looks like I delivered at 40+6.

We've never gone by LMP - cycles are too screwed up for that. This time, I told them I didn't even have my cycle back, so they couldn't try to use that as any sort of marker. Just as well, considering my cycle would have been around 53 days.

And yes, so nice to not be hassled! It's one reason why I fled from the practice I started seeing with Norah - they wanted an automatic c-section if I hadn't gone into labor by 40 weeks. I called BS and ran like hell.

I need to get everyone dressed and do some shopping. I need to bake. I want sweet food to take my mind of connecticut.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

We have our tree up but I don't put out gifts yet! No, we set them up after the kids go to bed on Christmas eve. Even growing up nothing was out before then! I guess everyone has their own traditions.

I spent some more time wrapping today. I have so much for Nora and not much at all for Finn. I can't think of anything else to get him!

I gush thinking about nb nursing too!







My close friend has a 2 mo old and you forget so much how much help they need in the beginning. And how cute they are!

Nm going on here. DH went out shopping and to pick up Nora. He can't get home with her fast enough. I just want to pull her into my arms and keep her there forever! Maybe I will sleep with her tonight. I'm just so sad for all those who lost babies today.









Finn is teething SO BAD. He's a hot mess. Crying, whining, jamming fingers in his mouth. This is WITH his necklace and usually a dose of tylenol or motrin. I went and got more teething gel to rub on (the hylands natural one). He will literally only eat bananas and pouches. And boob.

I got some fenugreek to add to my water. Hoping I can see some difference soon!


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

I know it would be easier to just not have the gifts out, but I looooove seeing the tree up with gifts under it. And part of me loves watching her dog into them with excitrment. She's a fabulous gift opener!! LOL

On a serious note though, I'm trying to treat it as another one of the household rules she needs to follow, and eventually she'll get it. Same as she can't play in the toilet or on the computer, she can't play with the gifts. We redirect ad give her something else to play with. We're trying so hard not to become one of those crazy baby proofed homes, you know? She's old enough now to start teaching her what she can and can't play with, and so were trying to encourage that.

Speaking if old enough things!! Ash has been working in putting her toys away when she's done with them, so I've been trying it here too and she's doin so well! Slow, but she will actually help but things into bins. I love it!!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Dylan likes to help clean up, too. He loves to put laundry in the baskets. Only problem is that he gets clean clothes out of the drawers to put in the dirty clothes basket.







He helped dh pick up some blocks and put them back in the bag yesterday and helped me wipe off the kitchen table today.

I don't consider keeping things put away that you don't want your child to mess with as baby proofing. When I think baby proofing, I think safety like a gate at the top of the stairs or keeping bathroom doors shut. Keeping certain things out of sight is about convenience for me. It makes life a lot easier when I don't have to constantly redirect my children from something I don't want them to have.

I've been baking a lot recently. I've made cookies, two cakes and brownies. Yum!

I prefer to be home for naps because that is the only down time I get. I need that time to do my own thing, which does not include being out and about.







If there's something fun that I want to do, I'll do whenever we are ready regardless of naps. But as far as regular, every day errands, I don't want to waste nap time out doing that. Plus, Dylan doesn't sleep nearly as long if he naps while we're out. He'll fall asleep in the car but wake up when we take him out most of the time and then be fussy for the rest of the day. At home, he'll nap for 2-3 hours.

I'm bringing dinner to my friend tomorrow.


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

I also don't see that as baby proofing. I personally don't feel like redirecting constantly. Lol. I have always kept presents up though until Christmas Eve.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Kat ~ What EOs do you suggest for disinfecting and deodorizing diapers other than TTO? I have decided I really don't like TTO. Would Eucalyptus oil be ok? I just got some today to help with Dylan's congestion.


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

Ugh. typed out a post last night on my phone and then clicked something and deleted the whole thing.

I guess babyproofing isn't the right word. Just... obviously there are things that we take away from her hands, so as not to tempt her- we don't leave out the phones, or sharp things or important papers, etc. But there's also things that will be in her sight that are non-negotiable that she's not allowed to touch, and we're teaching her that slowly-- things like no, you can't play with the tv, and the cupboard of dvds is off limits. We try not to say no to her "just because", so there's plenty of things she -can- play with, the other people would turn their nose up at (she goes in the kitchen cupboards, and plays with the front window, and looks through our photo albums etc)

Ugh, ok so |I started this like 6 hours ago, and I obviously haven't finished, but I need to turn my computer off now! I'll try to finish tomorrow morning...


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *onetwoten*
> 
> Ugh. typed out a post last night on my phone and then clicked something and deleted the whole thing.
> 
> ...


I hate when that happens, whether it's that the post disappears or I run out of time.

So many of those things are things that I would just put up and away where they wouldn't even be an option or temptation to mess with. Maybe that comes with having multiple children. I don't remember feeling like I needed to put as much away when I just had Ryan. Now it's all about ease and convenience. What's easier for me, having to continuously tell my child not to touch, not for him, put it down, or just putting it up and away? It's so much easier for me to just put it up and away. My children still learn along the same time what is ok and what is not to touch, play with, whatever. Really, your child is not learning anything any faster because you choose to leave things out and tell her not to touch. You are just creating more work for yourself.


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

Oh ladies! Have any if you read "bloom" by Kelle Hampton? I've read the birth story of her daughter, who was born with Down syndrome, and cried through the whole thing- it was just so beautiful. I downloaded her full book from the library today and started readi g it tonight. I finally just had to stop because I've cried like 8 times already. It's so touching and I feel so emotional reading it, in a good way though. She talks in the first chapters about her experiences getting pregnant and miscarrying as well, and just that ache in your soul when you're wanting a baby and it consumes you.

I think it's all really hitting me for several reasons today-- first off, I mean holy crapy baby isn't a baby anymore! Lol. But also, my BFF told rob at tenleys party that her and er husband are whatevering right now (though of course she didn't use that term! Lol) and I know she's really upset that it doesn't seem to be happening. And ten she's posted a few things latelyl on FB and Pinterest etc about waiting for things you really want, and trusting gods timing etc. it just reminds me of how much I hurt during those months of waiting to be able to ttc and then once we stopped avoiding, just waiting for it to happen and losing patience and hope. I just feel for er so much right now.

And then also, he's made a few smaller comments lately, but today we were watching Tenley being silly and dh was like soooo... And then be stopped and wouldn't say anything and then a few minutes later was like "you think she needs a brother?" All shyly. And I of course told him that yeah I think she needs a brother in two or three years, but I honestl think it sounded like he was talking about it in more of an immediate sense. Like not NOW now, but as in soonish. It was so weird, just like listening to the sound of his voice when he brought it up and just really stopping to think about having that second baby, that second pregnancy. Going through the baby days again, but also thinking of her as our big girl. It's crazy!!

Anyways basically just me saying holy crap I'm emotional and sappy today!! How can you tell I'm ovulating? Lol and yes totally check out this book if you have reading time!


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 

My children still learn along the same time what is ok and what is not to touch, play with, whatever. Really, your child is not learning anything any faster because you choose to leave things out and tell her not to touch. You are just creating more work for yourself.

Yes this! I used to think it was a matter of teaching them, but it really isn't. They learn it quick when they are ready.

Of course, I've been teaching "hot" when it comes to the stove, or "bottom first" for the stairs, but so much is up and out of the way that when he DOES get into something, it's more of a whoa, we need to get that out of here fast, sort of reaction, lol!

Quote:
Originally Posted by *onetwoten* 

And then also, he's made a few smaller comments lately, but today we were watching Tenley being silly and dh was like soooo... And then be stopped and wouldn't say anything and then a few minutes later was like "you think she needs a brother?" All shyly. And I of course told him that yeah I think she needs a brother in two or three years, but I honestl think it sounded like he was talking about it in more of an immediate sense. Like not NOW now, but as in soonish. It was so weird, just like listening to the sound of his voice when he brought it up and just really stopping to think about having that second baby, that second pregnancy. Going through the baby days again, but also thinking of her as our big girl. It's crazy!!

Hey this is HUGE! I thought he was done, done, done!!

It's crazy, isn't it, to think about your baby being the big one? Sigh. I remember those feelings so well IRT Nora!

FWIW, I don't ever think about Finn being a big brother. Ha! There are so many little subtle signs that I'm really done. Idk what to make of any of them!

So I started putting fenugreek in my water, and man that stuff works great! I've been waking up in the morning full and even leaky -- far cry from how I was before. He even had a partial bm poo yesterday!! He's nursing a ton more, so I think this was a good move.

Lauri - hows your supply since the abx course? Better?

I was wondering too - can fenugreek cause more fertile CM? CD13 and gobs of ewcm already. Last month remember I didn't have any? So weird.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Carrie ~ the hot stove is a good example. i've been telling dylan from the beginning when something is hot. i tell him the stove and oven and pots and pans and food are hot. He understands. his first word was hot. But I don't put him close enough to the stove or make the stove easily accessible to him so that he could touch it and get burned.

JJ ~ Interesting remarks by the hubs. Hmm...







I have not read that book or heard of that person. Is she an author or did she just write a book about her experiences with pregnancy, miscarriage and having a child?

Dylan is burning up again. I thought he was getting better. He hasn't had a fever for 3 or 4 days. Poor guy.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> Hey this is HUGE! I thought he was done, done, done!!
> 
> ...


I think about Ava being a big sister all the time, especially lately. She loves taking care of babies. I pulled out her old baby bath to give to a lady that just got a 4 month old foster daughter and she has been playing with it all weekend. She puts her baby in it and she pretends to wash it and she wants me to wash it. She would be an awesome big sister.

After the 3rd dose, my supply picked back up but it's not great right now because AF is starting. Hopefully it will get much better in a few days. Although Ava signed milk this morning and she's been doing the milk sign for both breast and cow so I showed her a tube of breast milk and her cow's milk and she chose the cow's milk.







I know she has to wean at some point but it still makes me sad.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> Carrie ~ the hot stove is a good example. i've been telling dylan from the beginning when something is hot. i tell him the stove and oven and pots and pans and food are hot. He understands. his first word was hot. But I don't put him close enough to the stove or make the stove easily accessible to him so that he could touch it and get burned.
> JJ ~ Interesting remarks by the hubs. Hmm...
> ...


MW, here's a link to the blogpost that went viral. I bawl every time I read it. http://www.kellehampton.com/2010/01/nella-cordelia-birth-story.html And poor D! Is it just a fever? Anything else going on?


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> I think about Ava being a big sister all the time, especially lately. She loves taking care of babies. I pulled out her old baby bath to give to a lady that just got a 4 month old foster daughter and she has been playing with it all weekend. She puts her baby in it and she pretends to wash it and she wants me to wash it. She would be an awesome big sister.
> 
> ...


Finn is great with baby dolls. He's going to make a great daddy someday I say! LOL!

FXed for you about supply. AF is always a struggle here as well. I can just *tell* he isn't getting as much.

Have you tried taking fenugreek yet? I don't remember if you got any supplements.

Awww about the cows milk!







I can't even get my head around full weaning either. No no. I get so sad!

Doing laundry and staying out of DHs path today. We are still/again having trouble communicating. Idk what we need but man...it's getting so hard these days!!

Also purging all of finn's 12-18 mo clothes. He is fully into 24 mo 2T, so idk why I'm hanging on to things.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> And poor D! Is it just a fever? Anything else going on?


he's got a nasty cold that's been going around, fever, coughing, congestion, nasty runny nose. it started here with ethan and spread. i'm the only one who hasn't gotten it yet but i feel it coming today. dh came home friday feeling sick. he said he knew why dylan was so fussy. um, yeah, because he's sick. dh says, "it's a sinus thing." again, duh! you couldn't tell from the fact that he could barely breathe and had snot constantly running into his mouth?









sometimes i think that man is so stupid. when i cam downstairs first thing yesterday morning, the first thing out of his mouth was, "where are the boys?" he had been up longer than i had so he would know if they were up and about and no one had gone anywhere. they were still sleeping. Doh! I've been wondering if he's really that dumb or if he just says things to make small talk or something and doesn't really think about it. I hate small talk just for the sake of talking. I'd rather he say nothing.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

I've taken fenugreek but it doesn't do too much for me. Alfalfa works best to increase my supply. I've been taking it sporadically this week. Need to take it more often. I'm just so bad about remembering to take stuff and I need to remember to take my abx so the alfalfa is taking a backburner.

DH and I are having trouble communicating this week as well. Holidays are always so stressful. Hope your week gets better.


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> Carrie ~ the hot stove is a good example. i've been telling dylan from the beginning when something is hot. i tell him the stove and oven and pots and pans and food are hot. He understands. his first word was hot. But I don't put him close enough to the stove or make the stove easily accessible to him so that he could touch it and get burned.
> JJ ~ Interesting remarks by the hubs. Hmm...
> ...


Yes, that's a better way of describing it. Like my house isn't filled with breakables or anythign!! lol But there are some things that can't be moved (for now- we're trying to figure out a way to block off the doors of the dvd cabinet), and so when she heads towards them, we redirect and remind her that it's not for playing with because ------ whatever it is. And the presents have become one of those things. But no, I mean for most things, they're not an issue. The bathroom door stays closed, the glass tupperware is put away, the remotes and phones, stay on shelves, etc etc. But for things like the tv, or playing with the floor vent, or now the presents, I do believe she's old enough to start learning that there's things she can play with, and things she can't. So no, I mean we don't make life harder by leaving out vases and glass ornaments or anything, but I'm also not going to make my life harder, when I believe she is at an age that's reasonable for her to learn these things. ie I was told by someone to just cover over the floor vent, rather than trying to get her not to play with it. Except that it supplies most of the heat for this room, and so if it's closed, the house in general feels like it's freezing. It makes life a lot harder to cover over it, when I could just work with her to learn that even though it's there, we can't touch it, but ohhhh hey! Look at all the nice toys we -can- play with!! lol

I don't know, maybe I'm not explaining it well enough, but it's not like i go out of my way to make it a 'learning opportunity'. But it's an issue we're dealing with, and so yes, we teach her that sometimes there's things that you want to play with that you can't, and that's non-negotiable.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> Finn is great with baby dolls. He's going to make a great daddy someday I say! LOL!
> 
> ...


I love seeing them play with dolls! Tenley has started loving on her babies, and Rob said she tried to nurse one today... but then just kept poking it's mouth! lol

The idea of weaning does seem very weird at this point, but Lauri, you've done SOOO well with her. And I mean her having more cow's milk, doesn't necessarily mean she's weaning yet, right? It could be months before she decides she's ready to fully give it up. Tenley will take almond milk if offered now, but I can't see her accepting that as substitution when she's sick or sad, or during the middle of the night.

I have been thinking more about weaning lately too. It's weird. I am SO happy to have made it to a year. I literally cannot wrap my brain around having stopped purposely before then. She just would not have been ready. And she's still not ready now, heck she still nurses some nights 8 times or more. But I do see it decreasing during the day a bit more, and her food intake is increasing again, and it's crazy how fast it goes from nursing a baby to feeling like you're nursing a full on toddler. She's so big now when she nurses and takes up so much room on my lap! lol Anyways, this is all to say, it's weird thinking about the future and what point we'll end up weaning at. On a personal level, I'd like to be mostly done by two, I think. I miss having my body all to myself. But I also know all the benefits, and that WHO recommends nursing until 2 and beyond, and so I don't think I could -actually- bring myself to purposely wean before then. I don't know, I guess it's just weird to think about. Two seems soooo far away, but then so did one! I can't see myself nursing a 3 year old... but again, if she still needs it at that point, I can't imagine/can't picture myself working towards that active weaning.

I've heard people talk about how "I never planned on being an "extended" nurser, I just kept nursing, and then kept nursing, and then kept nursing, and all of a sudden she was four!" lol I can totally see that being me. Not until four you know, but just the idea of... I don't know, continually backing dwon from an "intended" weaning stage.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> I've taken fenugreek but it doesn't do too much for me. Alfalfa works best to increase my supply. I've been taking it sporadically this week. Need to take it more often. I'm just so bad about remembering to take stuff and I need to remember to take my abx so the alfalfa is taking a backburner.
> 
> DH and I are having trouble communicating this week as well. Holidays are always so stressful. Hope your week gets better.


I've got a nursing tea that a friend made for me, but I am soooo bad at remembering to actually make and drink it!

MW-- Yeah that's the same one from the link Lauri posted. From what i understand, she's a photographer/ former teacher/ blogger, and just wrote this book because of the outpouring she got from her story on the blog. But I'm not entirely sure. I'm really enjoying reading it though. I think especially with what's happened in CT, and watching mine own baby grow, and thoughts of having another... it's just another reminder to be so thankful for the life and blessings we have, and finding the good in the everyday. We're not often greatful enough for the things we have. With her second baby, they didn't know beforehand, and found out at the birth that she had DS, and I break down -every- time I read the part where she talks about feeling like her daughter was 'saying' to her "Love me. Love me. I'm not what you expected, but oh, please love me." Because I mean isn't that true for so much? They're not what we expect, they cry more, and louder, and they have health concerns, or sensitive personalities, or whatever it may be, but in the end, all they want and need is just for us to love them, wholeheartedly.

I hope D gets better soon! It's so hard when they're little and sick  And I'm keeping my fingers crossed you don't get it! The only thing worse than sick baby, is sick mama taking care of sick baby!

DH and I have been getting along well this week actually. It's nice. We needed some more together time!!

My big news of the weekend is having access to a car now! We're a one vehicle family, and DH usually takes it so that he can be there to pick Tenley up before 4pm, so my SIL doesn't have to bundle her up to take her to meet the bus for Ava. But it sucks because it's been cold out, and I don't want to bus with Tenley over to Ash's in the morning, so we've been getting a ride from my MIL most days. Which sucks. I don't like being dependent on her, especially since she gets taken advantage of by her daughters so much. Anyways-- my father has... one van, one car, and one work truck, plus he's living with his girlfriend and her daughter who each have their own cars... so he asked us on Friday if we wanted the car for a little while, to clear up some driveway space for them. He asked several months ago, and we said no, but I jumped on it this time. We don't know how long it'll be for, it could be 2 weeks, it could be several months, but I'm grateful for any time with it! We have a second carseat too, so now I'll be able to drive her to Ash's,. and then drive to work (which also means I can drop her off later), and then Rob will pick her up in the other car after work. And after I'm done work, I can just drive home, which cuts a ton of time off that end too. Right now I'm usually off work at 1130, which means I don't get home until at least 1240, and sometimes 110am depending which bus I catch. This way I'll get home at 12, and not have ot freeze my butt off either! lol

Anyways, I'm just pumping and catching up on some stuff, and then I need to head to bed! Ten was up constantly last night, and I am beat!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *onetwoten*
> 
> Yes, that's a better way of describing it. Like my house isn't filled with breakables or anythign!! lol But there are some things that can't be moved (for now- we're trying to figure out a way to block off the doors of the dvd cabinet), and so when she heads towards them, we redirect and remind her that it's not for playing with because
> 
> ...


This makes sense for the things that you can't move or need to have out. It does seem silly to cover the air vent if that's what you need for heating and cooling in your home, unless there's some kind of cover you could get that would keep her from being able to play with the vent while still allowing air to flow out. The tree and presents are not things that need to be out now, though. Putting those things out so much before when they will actually be used, as in opened, is creating more work for you. It's asking for trouble and not fair for the littles, in a way. They see these pretty, fun looking things that they want to get into and don't understand why they can't play with them if they are out. Forbidden fruit is always sweeter.

It's the same as whether or not to keep soda in the house for yourself when you don't want your kids drinking it often. If you have it there and the kids want it, they are going constantly ask for it or try to find ways to sneak it. It's a lot easier to just not keep it in the house.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

I put out the tree kind of with the intention that it be played with. It's a short tree- maybe 4 feet, but full, and everything on it she can't really do any damage to. I think I'll keep doing that - the kids enjoy it, and yeah, it makes a mess, but not any more than their typical mess. It may come down to it that we have a kids tree (that can be messed with) and a pretty tree, that shouldn't.

Some families put a felt tree up somewhere with felt decorations.

dvds - can she actually open the cases? Is she likely to stomp on them and cause damage? I might have some out (maybe old ones you've lost the DVD to) and let her play with them. Sometimes taking the mystery and "no" out of the situation goes a long way - like, oh, these are no big deal. Like the tree, after ours had been out a week, it's largely lost it's mystery, and Norah doesn't bother it much at all. I like to try to offer acceptable alternatives - compromises - for some things I might consider unacceptable otherwise.

For Gabe, at Nana's house, he's not allowed to jump on the couch. But he can use the big floor pillows on the floor for jumping on if he wants. Want to play in the cupboards? you can't play under the sink (nasty stuff) but you can play in the tupperware or pots and pans cabinet. It creates alot more opportunity for "yes"

Of course, there always will be absolute "no"s - like the stairs (but even then, there are times it's allowed - I mean, she isn't allowed to climb up them unsupervised, but if I'm going upstairs anyway, I'll let her crawl up ahead of me)

Your floor vent - does she like the grate, or the air blowing through it? Might see if you can find an alternative that might capture her attention. Both of mine love the humidifier - standing infront of it and adjusting the strength of the air flow is great fun, and honestly they can't really do much harm to it.

I'm not saying you are doing anything that you shouldn't be - Just trying to find some alternatives that might make your life easier and Ten happier.

We were at a birthday party this weekend where the grandma has custody of her grandchildren ages 3, 2, and 1 (they all have birthdays within a month of each other) - and her tree has glass ornamnents, she has breakables and picture frames on lower shelves where the kids can easily reach them, and she was like "I spend so much time keeping the kids out of the tree!" and I'm like, duh. Why are you making life hard? she works full time, and If I was out of the home that much, and had to come home to three littles that I was constantly telling "no" - I'd try to find a better solution.

MW: YES on the soda! though my parents have it upstairs. Our solution: they have the sodastream thing where you make your own soda, and they found an orange flavored syrup in the natural line that Gabe is allowed a small glass at meals. It's not ideal, but I figure one small glass at the occasional meal isn't going to make much difference in the long run.

Can't believe it's only a week until Christmas! (Eve) LOL - I'm ready. We have some fun things we want to get done this week, hopefully the weather will cooperate.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> Can't believe it's only a week until Christmas! (Eve) LOL - I'm ready. We have some fun things we want to get done this week, hopefully the weather will cooperate.


The weather up here has been cold and rainy for DAYS. We haven't even gotten out of the house. It's so tough w/o outside as an option!

It's just me and the kids all day. Probably will take them out after nap to break up the day otherwise I'll go bananas. Theres still some shopping to do!


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

I do what you do akind1. Give opportunities for "yes". Ava has three cabinets she can do whatever she wants to do in the kitchen and one that is not for Ava. I keep the doors to other rooms shut. The only decorations on our tree right now are ones for her to play with. Right now, she could care less about the tree.

Baby_Cakes, I hear you on the bad weather. It's cold here too. If I were you, we would be at IKEA!

JJ, that's so awesome about the car! I can't imagine getting off work at midnight like I do and then having to catch a bus. Gah!

I still have about half my shopping to do. DH is not helping. Normally I don't mind coming up with all the present ideas and doing the shopping (gifts is my secondary Love Language) but it is super hard this year because Ava is either rearranging store shelves or she finds something she wants. He has a lot going on at work and he has issues compartmentalizing so if I try to have a convo with him about present options, it "derails" him. Sigh.

MW, how's D this morning? My big kids have had that junk. I loaded them up on vit D and Emergen-C when they were home this past weekend.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Oh and Ava practically had a panic attack at the Santa breakfast at church yesterday so I'm not going to try Santa pics again this year. Calling around to see if any portrait studios can squeeze us in.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Aw poor Ava! Nora is deathly afraid of Santa. We've never done Santa pics. I don't think it's a huge deal. I'm sure JCP or Target can squeeze you in. Honestly, I'm happy w/the target pics, but not thrilled. JCP would have done a better job, for sure, but you get what you pay for.

IKEA! That's a fun rainy day activity. But, I do like to go with a friend and both my good friends are busy today. Boo!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> I do what you do akind1. Give opportunities for "yes










you said what i was trying to explain so much better. rather than setting the situation up for a lot of "nos", set it up for as many "yeses" as possible.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> I'm not saying you are doing anything that you shouldn't be - Just trying to find some alternatives that might make your life easier and Ten happier.










, too. i was thinking...maybe you could put some empty wrapped boxes out for her to tear into every day. you may end up havin to rewrap them every day but at least that would be a fun "yes" rather than a continuous "no". the problem is that by time she can open her actual presents she might be over it.









i'm pretty sure dylan has an ear infection. he woke up this morning pulling on his left ear and he's virtually inconsolable even with nursing. i put some breast milk in his ear and gave him some acetaminophen and he's finally quiet and still.

i was planning to go to the mall today for some gift shopping but i guess that won't happen. i need to find some more things for ryan's girlfriend.

i'm with ava on the sants thing. he's scary and kind of creepy.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Oh my gosh, you guys! I pulled out the camcorder to make sure I had the right charger. The dvd in it was from when Ava was born. I turned it on and started watching it with Ava. She was curious about the first part when she was in the newborn nursery but when it switched to the part showing them bring in her transport pod so I could say goodbye, she started furiously signing all done and hitting at the camcorder. Do you think she still remembers?


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Some experts say that babies do remember their births so I think it's very possible.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

I'd say it was possible - poor Ava!

I don't push Santa pics- Norah would probably happily sit with him and pull his beard. Gabe isn't afraid, just cautious. We've walked by him and he is beyond not interested. NBD

MW: I had a question for you - I seem to recall that Kellen for a while was doing really well using the bathroom when nekkid, but not with clothes on. How did you resolve that? Or did you just do pull ups or something when out and about? We are at the place with Gabe- no accidents when naked. (he hasn't pooped in the potty, doesn't seem to be avoiding it, but it seems to happen until he is in a diaper)

Also - poor D! hope he's feeling better soon.

Carrie - if I were local, I'd hit Ikea with you!


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> I put out the tree kind of with the intention that it be played with. It's a short tree- maybe 4 feet, but full, and everything on it she can't really do any damage to. I think I'll keep doing that - the kids enjoy it, and yeah, it makes a mess, but not any more than their typical mess. It may come down to it that we have a kids tree (that can be messed with) and a pretty tree, that shouldn't.
> 
> ...


Oh definitely. Tenley isn't interested much in the tree itself. She looked at it lots the first few days, and she pulls a few ornaments off, but they're plastic, so it's not the end of the world. We tell her they're for looking, not playing, but really, I'm not terribly upset if she does pull them off to look at. However, she -has- been trying to eat the glitter ones... lol. Trying to stop that!!

I didn't think she could open the DVDs, she used to just play with the books that were in that cupboard, but now she can open them, and she takes all the dvds out and plays with them, even biting them  And most of what's in there are expensive TV series DVD sets, so it's become a forbidden cabinet. lol. But yeah we do the redirection to the cabinets she -can- play with, or to her bookshelf where she can pull stuff off of as much as she likes. There's lot of opportunities for yes in our house, but I mean obviously she's a toddler, so she wants to full explore ALL her options! lol

The floor grate does blow air out at her, but it's actually the fact that she can take it off that excites her. She used to be able to pull it right out of the floor and she would a/ try to climb down it, which is sooo unsafe since there's sharp edges, or if she fell she could break her leg. And b/ she throws her and the dogs toys down there, too. So, it was an issue! lol. We've finally glued it to the floor (Not our first choice!!) and now she leaves it alone for the most part (she can still flip the top up if she -reallllllly- wants to throw things down there, and sometimes she does. We've tried to give her sorting toys and boxes to throw stuff into, but I mean obviously it's not as fun as mama's big people vent! lol

I know what you mean about hazard houses. My father just moved into a brand new house with his gf. Gorgeous house, but horrific for kids  She's got glass and ornaments and breakables --everywhere--. And there's a fireplace. I could stand in one spot in the living room reach my hands in a cicrcle around me and probably touch a dozen expensive breakable objects, including the glass top coffee table. Ugh. We're having Christmas there. I'm not looking forward to it. Last time we were there Ten fussed the whole time, because I couldn't let her explore. Which is mean to her. And makes our night harder. We definitely will need to bring some busy bag type toys on xmas. I don't know how else we'll keep her occupied...

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> I still have about half my shopping to do. DH is not helping. Normally I don't mind coming up with all the present ideas and doing the shopping (gifts is my secondary Love Language) but it is super hard this year because Ava is either rearranging store shelves or she finds something she wants. He has a lot going on at work and he has issues compartmentalizing so if I try to have a convo with him about present options, it "derails" him. Sigh.


*raises hand* I'm so guilty of this. I need to finish one thing before I can fully commit my brain to another topic. It drives DH crazy, anbd I understand, but I just can't seem to break myself of the habit!

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> Oh and Ava practically had a panic attack at the Santa breakfast at church yesterday so I'm not going to try Santa pics again this year. Calling around to see if any portrait studios can squeeze us in.


Ohhh ! Poor girl  I mean I can see why he's scary!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We've got all the presents she shouldn't touch, on the backside of the tree, so she has to crawl underneath the whole front half of the tree to get to them. I've placed her presents at the front, and keep repeating that this present and this present are Lenis or Avas etc etc, but THESE presents out here are for Tenley. She doesn't want them. lol Hasn't touched any of her own presents. Wants the exciting looking ones at the back. I mean it's really not a huge deal though. When they get big tears in them, I tape and rewrap. Right now though, I have her fun boxes of books and toys in front of the tree, so when she heads towards it, she sees all her fun toys first. Right now she's sitting on her chair in front of the tree with one of her new books, reading to herself.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> Oh my gosh, you guys! I pulled out the camcorder to make sure I had the right charger. The dvd in it was from when Ava was born. I turned it on and started watching it with Ava. She was curious about the first part when she was in the newborn nursery but when it switched to the part showing them bring in her transport pod so I could say goodbye, she started furiously signing all done and hitting at the camcorder. Do you think she still remembers?


I think MW is right and it's possible. I've heard stories of preschoolers recounting their births to their parents. What a thing to remember!

We had SUCH a long night last night. After several great nights, all of a sudden she's starting the every hour on the dot wakeups, and throwing herself around the bed. blah. Then it took 45 minutes to get her down for her morning nap, and she only slept for 30 minutes. (The one nap a day thing SO did not go over well). At least she's in a great mood now, but seriously child?! LOL I'm hoping she'll nap at Ashleighs. She's there today from 2-4pm, so she'll need to fall asleep almost immediately after getting there to get a good nap in. We'll see!

I think we're finished our christmas shopping! I could pick up something else for my mom, but if we don't see anything, that's ok too. I wanted to get more stuff for Ten, but we don't -need- to. She's getting SO much stuff from other people, it's not like she'll notice. Her ktchen won't be ready though, and that makes me so frustrated. We haven't even started it. I keep asking DH to figure out the plans and bring the materials home, and he works on it for like 15 minutes and then says he's stuck. But he won't really let me help him either. Anyways, the point is-- no big planning/shopping stress, other than we need to write our xmas cards and send them out still! Oops! Tomorrow maybe.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *onetwoten*
> 
> I didn't think she could open the DVDs, she used to just play with the books that were in that cupboard, but now she can open them, and she takes all the dvds out and plays with them, even biting them
> 
> ...


I'd put a baby lock on the cabinet if you really want to keep her out of it. Just don't get the magnetic kind because then you are forever searching for the damn magnet to open the lock and it's a pita. DH put one of those on the pantry door in the house we lived in when Ethan was a baby. I finally ripped the whole thing off with my bare hands I got so annoyed with it.









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *onetwoten*
> 
> We've tried to give her sorting toys and boxes to throw stuff into, but I mean obviously it's not as fun as mama's big people vent! lol
> 
> We've got all the presents she shouldn't touch, on the backside of the tree, so she has to crawl underneath the whole front half of the tree to get to them. I've placed her presents at the front, and keep repeating that this present and this present are Lenis or Avas etc etc, but THESE presents out here are for Tenley. She doesn't want them. lol Hasn't touched any of her own presents. Wants the exciting looking ones at the back. I mean it's really not a huge deal though. When they get big tears in them, I tape and rewrap. Right now though, I have her fun boxes of books and toys in front of the tree, so when she heads towards it, she sees all her fun toys first. Right now she's sitting on her chair in front of the tree with one of her new books, reading to herself.


Forbidden fruit.









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *onetwoten*
> 
> I know what you mean about hazard houses. My father just moved into a brand new house with his gf. Gorgeous house, but horrific for kids
> 
> ...


I can't take my kids to visit my dad because his house his a hazard. He doesn't have a bunch of nice breakable stuff around. He just has a bunch of junk around. I seriously think he's turning into a hoarder. Not because he wants to keep the stuff. He just doesn't bother throwing anything out. He's getting old and I think it gets to be too much for him. But he also won't let anyone else clean it out for him.







So, we just don't go there. If he wants to see us, he has to come here.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> MW: I had a question for you - I seem to recall that Kellen for a while was doing really well using the bathroom when nekkid, but not with clothes on. How did you resolve that? Or did you just do pull ups or something when out and about?


I just used Pull-Ups when we were out.


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

The problem with this cupboard if there's no handles on it, so there's nothin to attach a lock to. I tried putting her table and chars in front of it, but she pushed the whole table across the room and then went back and opened the cabinet!' Lol

Once the basement is done it won't be a problem because I can put those things downstairs. But right now there's nowhere else to put them! Lol oh well it'll only be a little
While longer.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Can't you get the latches that screw into the door? That's what we have on our cabinets that don't have handles. Actually, I'd use those even on cabinets with handles.

http://www.toysrus.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3502249


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

hmm. I'd be going through so may less diapers. He's not dry overnight yet, but is for naps. He has been alot LESS wet in the morning, but not yet completely dry. I think I just need to make the jump and we will both learn from the accidents, I guess.

Chrismas shopping is all done!

my kids both need naps so badly. but Norah won't leave gabe alone long enough *sigh*


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Finn didn't go down until 3.

He didn't transfer asleep from the car and Nora was being too loud so I couldn't get him back down. That 15 or so min in the car took the edge off so I just took them outside for a bit.

I make it sound easy but I really almost lost my temper. I had to deep breathe and realize nobody was going to die and nothing was THAT important about a nap. I just need to do that BEFORE I say nasty things and make myself look like an idiot, or hurt poor Nora's feelings. Sigh. I have so much to learn.

I have so much I want to read/do but DH makes me feel guilty when I don't pay attn to him after the kids are in bed. It's like I can't do anything but either have sex OR watch a show with him. But some nights I'd like to read, or do something else with my time. Any idea how I can convey that to him? especially once I need to buckle down and study for my doula cert, I will need that time.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

How much time is there after the kids are in bed? Maybe say, like, give me X amount of time for my stuff, then we can have couple time for whatever. Or if time is very limited, do couple time every other day.
I had to breathe and let go a bit today too. A lot of self imposed pressure. The house is a bit of a disaster, but the kids were happy and my work got done.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> How much time is there after the kids are in bed? Maybe say, like, give me X amount of time for my stuff, then we can have couple time for whatever. Or if time is very limited, do couple time every other day.
> I had to breathe and let go a bit today too. A lot of self imposed pressure. The house is a bit of a disaster, but the kids were happy and my work got done.


On a good night, 2.5 hours. They are normally asleep by 830 or 9 and I like to go to bed by 11.

That's roughly 1 or 2 episodes of a show (that we ONLY watch together, that I LOVE watching). So it's hard. I want to watch my shows but I also love to read and want to get thru the Laura Markham book.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> I have so much I want to read/do but DH makes me feel guilty when I don't pay attn to him after the kids are in bed. It's like I can't do anything but either have sex OR watch a show with him. But some nights I'd like to read, or do something else with my time. Any idea how I can convey that to him? especially once I need to buckle down and study for my doula cert, I will need that time.


While still being nice and thoughtful and loving and diplomatic? That's a hard one for me.









I would start by telling him what you want to do for yourself and for him and ask him what he wants and expects. Try to focus on principles like being loving and caring and generous or whatever. Then you guys can work together to figure out what works. If he starts to whine about not getting enough, find a way to gently ask if he cares about you getting what you want.

Dylan is so funny. He's nursing in my lap. I knocked an empty cup over and he was worried. I handed it to him. He looked in it then held it under my breast to try to get some milk.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

DH time...that's a tough one. When I get home at night, I'm tired and I want to just lay in bed and drift peacefully off to sleep. But I know DH wants something different. So I try to compromise and initiate at least every couple of days. And not rebuff his attempts too many times. Because while DTD is neither here nor there for me, I know what it feels like when I want to talk to DH about something and he needs me to not distract him. It hurts my feelings, even though I try to tell myself that it has nothing to do with me. So I try to suck it up and not be resentful. Baby_Cakes, maybe you could just partition the time out in your mind? Watch 1 show, read your book for 30 mins and then DTD for 30 mins? Same timeframe but events in a different order? Whatever works best for you guys.

DH and I have been talking about Love Languages again. His primary love language is words of affirmation. Two weekends ago, he left early Saturday morning to go do some volunteer work and he was going to be gone most of the day. He wrote me this long note about how much he loved me and he was going to miss me and Ava, blah blah. I told him the other day that while the note was certainly very lovely, FOR ME, it would have meant more if instead he had scrubbed the bathroom and left a short note saying "Sorry I won't be with you guys today. I scrubbed the bathroom for you. I love you." Neither thing is wrong, it's just one speaks more to me and one speaks more to him. We are trying to work on that.

MW, that's so cute that D was trying to fill the cup up at your boob. Haha!


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Oh that is hilariously cute about the cup!

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> DH time...that's a tough one. When I get home at night, I'm tired and I want to just lay in bed and drift peacefully off to sleep. But I know DH wants something different. So I try to compromise and initiate at least every couple of days. And not rebuff his attempts too many times. Because while DTD is neither here nor there for me, I know what it feels like when I want to talk to DH about something and he needs me to not distract him. It hurts my feelings, even though I try to tell myself that it has nothing to do with me. So I try to suck it up and not be resentful. Baby_Cakes, maybe you could just partition the time out in your mind? Watch 1 show, read your book for 30 mins and then DTD for 30 mins? Same timeframe but events in a different order? Whatever works best for you guys.
> 
> ...


Idk if I could muster up energy for all 3 activities! I wouldn't mind tho, DTD first, then having time to either read alone or watch a show. One or the other. I just can't fraction my brain up in that many ways.

I see what you're saying totally. My love language in that situation would be the nice long note with a "PS. I'll bring you home a treat!". I would be on cloud 9 all day and be so excited for him to come home and would probably work extra hard JUST b/c I knew he was going to bring me something special. I wouldn't even care what it was, it could be something as easy as a plain bagel, and I would be swoony.

I hope DH gets me something for xmas. I'll be so upset if he doesn't.







We "bought each other" the blender, but I did buy him something else, just for him. B/c I know how much it means to me. It's so silly b/c I see so clearly how I'm trying to show him love using MY language with gifts and things. Sigh.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> My love language in that situation would be the nice long note with a "PS. I'll bring you home a treat!". I would be on cloud 9 all day and be so excited for him to come home and would probably work extra hard JUST b/c I knew he was going to bring me something special. I wouldn't even care what it was, it could be something as easy as a plain bagel, and I would be swoony.
> 
> ...


Does he know that is your love language? It's not silly. That is how you work. You need him to understand that as much as he needs you to understand his love language.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> Does he know that is your love language? It's not silly. That is how you work. You need him to understand that as much as he needs you to understand his love language.










Nothing silly about it. Your love language is Gifts. That's fine. He should be aware of that. What is his love language?


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Our issue lately has been that I'm just plain exhausted at the end of the day. All I have energy for sometimes is TV. And even then, I'm dozing off. DH doesn't seem to understand (in the non-heat of that moment) if I'm falling asleep watching tv, I'm not likely to have energy for DTD. srsly. And he'll sit on the couch, which is his "signal" that he's game, but not otherwise make a move. Sorry, but I need more than that. just not him, sitting on the couch looking grumpy.

Love language - for both of us, touch is a biggie. (not necessarily sexual touch) and I think for me, acts of service (helping around the house especially) It didn't used to be such a big deal, but since working from home and having kids, it really is.

One week until Christmas! I'm so ready for it to be here and get it over with, LOL. That's probably just the exhaustion talking.

MW: too cute about the cup + boob. I wish sometimes it worked like a tap.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

DH's main love language is gifts. It was really nice while we were dating. The women at my office would always make a big deal when he'd send me flowers. After we got married (and before I knew about love languages) I started to get annoyed because I thought it was a waste of money. We discussed not getting anything for each other our first Christmas together married. We had just bought a house and I was concerned about finances. I wasn't sure we'd have enough extra money to get gifts for everyone. I stuck to that but he didn't. He bought me a pair of diamond earrings. They were nice and I really liked them but I was mad that he didn't stick to our agreement about no gifts. I have since learned that it's virtually impossible for him to not get gifts for people. That's how he shows his love. His mother was the same, I think. She worked and saved almost every penny she made all year so she could get everyone an outrageous amount of Christmas presents. That was her thing.

My love languages are acts of service and quality time or talking or whatever it's called. I get all hot and bothered when dh cleans or fixes things around the house.







We have a lot of problems because he's not a talker or sharer of thoughts and feelings. I feel completely shut out by him, like I don't know anything about him and he doesn't really love me because he won't (can't) have a conversation with me. I got in a big argument with him the other day because I was trying to have a conversation with him about something and he didn't contribute anything. He just shrugged and grunted and then walked out of the room when I finished talking. I was like, "Hello. I was talking to you about this because I want your input, ideas, thoughts, feelings." It really hurts me that he makes no effort to even try to talk with me.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


His is touch. Sexual touch.

He's aware that my LL is gifts, we talked about it. And he sometimes teases me about it, which makes me feel belittled. Sometimes when we are having disagreement after disagreement, he makes a comment like, "Fine, what do you want me to buy for you this time?" like it's about the object. He's just frustrated. I'm sure he feels the same way when I brush off his sexual requests or needs. So, we both need to work on that.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> And he'll sit on the couch, which is his "signal" that he's game, but not otherwise make a move. Sorry, but I need more than that. just not him, sitting on the couch looking grumpy.
> 
> Love language - for both of us, touch is a biggie. (not necessarily sexual touch) and I think for me, acts of service (helping around the house especially) It didn't used to be such a big deal, but since working from home and having kids, it really is.


SO hear you on the looking grumpy/waiting signal! Also happens here!

Acts of service do NOTHING for me. I get so annoyed by them, actually. He will spend hours "cleaning" or decluttering or organizing, and want me to thank him and go out of my way to pat him on the back. Now that I'm typing this out, it's like DUH this is how he's showing his love. But to me its just a huge annoyance. Sigh. What do you do when THAT happens, lol?

And I'm actually laughing at myself, b/c I'll do something with cleaning, or take out the trash or something, and he will really kiss my feet to thank me for it and I just tell him to knock it off, don't THANK me for things I'm supposed to be doing. Ha! Omg I'm horrible.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

You're not horrible! just funny -

We had a text convo, bc he wanted to know if I was mad at him . . . ugh. I don't know how to fix it, other than to get more energy, and in order to do that, I need him to pick up more slack and let me sleep. So IDK. It's not like I want to be exhausted all the time. Seriously.

I'm tired, and just tired of being tired. I hate using pregnancy and motherhood as excuses, but for reals. It wears me down. I feel like I can't give 100% anywhere - work, kids, marriage, housework, and that just sucks. Something has to give. This is why I look forward to my in-office work days. All I have to focus on is work while I'm there, not ignoring a dirty house or kids that want me, or anything else. It's actually a break. *sigh*

Anyway - this is the wrong time of year to worry about any of it. I need less stress, not more. so do we all! Drinks on me, ya'll!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Um, pregnancy is not an excuse for being tired. You are growing an entire human being inside your body. That is physically exhausting! Parenting isn't an excuse, either, especially with very young children and babies. It makes me sad that you would even think of those reasons as excuses. That says to me that you've been taught to devalue motherhood and parenting.







I'm sure that, consciously, you don't think that way but that is the underlying message that statements like that convey, which means that somewhere, subconsciously, in the back of your brain, you believe at least a little that motherhood and parenting aren't valuable or important. They are the most important jobs in this world. If it weren't for mothers having babies and parents caring for their children, we would not exist.

Haha, Carrie! Yeah, it sounds like acts of service are a big thing for your dh, maybe even more than sex. Is sexual touch even a LL? I thought the book said that was at least not _just_ about sex. I crave touch without sex. Like last night, for once dh actually snuggled up to me in bed. That was so nice.

The thing to do is try to keep that knowledge in your thoughts. Whenever you do remember and notice him doing something, acknowledge it to him. Acknowledge to yourself that he cleaned that whatever because that's his way of taking care of the people he loves, you and the kids. I bet Annie would be thrilled if her dh did what yours does.









I wish I could remember what my dh's secondary love language is. I think he says it's touch but he doesn't act like. He rarely even sits next to me, much less touches me. He almost invariably sits in a chair across the room from me even though I've told him many times that it would be nice if he sat next to me. I think his secondary LL is acts of service because he seems to like to cook for us and he almost always does the dishes and he likes to build things for us like the fence and the clubhouse.

So, I've tried this pump a few times. I don't like it. It kind of hurts and I'm afraid to pump it all the way. I haven't gotten more than a few drop of milk and none of it actually made it into the container. I got more with hand expressing and was able to put a few drops in Dylan's ear. Why would hand expressing work better than a pump?


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

hmm. I don't know that I devalue it (motherhood, etc) though I probably do undervalue it - it's just something I do and am, and this is pregnancy #3, shouldn't I be used to it by now? LOL I think society in general probably does alot of undervaluing of pregnancy etc (why should she complain, she CHOSE to be pregnant, etc - which is why I have big problems with so much of the language the pro-choice movement uses. probably shouldn't go there though. Another day) I just feel, on some level, that I could be, and should be doing more. But on another level, this is my last pregnancy, and I want to be able to relax and enjoy it a bit too. - and too be fair - I don't know that DH necessarily expects so much, but part of me *thinks* he does and that has an impact.

Pump: what sort? I think it was a few weeks before I could turn it up full force, and I honestly don't get much unless it is turned up all the way - or close to all the way. Are you tense when you are pumping? that affects me alot - I need to relax and distract myself in order to be more successful. You probably are both more focused and more relaxed when you hand express. Your body is also more accustomed to that vs. a pump. If it's important, keep at it. If not . . . well, it was a nice thought on Sean's part.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> I just feel, on some level, that I could be, and should be doing more.


Ok, but if you could do more, wouldn't you be doing more? You are an always on the go kind of person so, if you aren't feeling up to doing a lot, I think that means you really shouldn't be doing more. Your body is telling you that you need to rest and relax more. It's ok to do that.









I do the same to myself where I think dh expects more when he really doesn't. Then I get mad at him and act really mean.









Devalue vs. undervalue, what's the difference?

It's a manual pump. I figured if I could get a few drops hand expressing I could probably get a little more with a manual pump. I'm not going to spend a lot on an electric pump that I don't need. This was a spur of the moment purchase after I was trying to hand express milk for Dylan's ear yesterday. I only got enough to get some in his ear once, first thing in the morning. I couldn't get any more after that. I asked dh to see if he could get me one from the Exchange so he got me whatever they had for only $20.









I probably am a little tense with the pump because it kind of hurt, like pinching. I think I probably got the same amount as when I hand express but because it has to travel farther and go through a sealed flange or whatever it is, there wasn't enough to actually make it into the container. When I hand express directly into a little cup the milk can just drip down into the cup. KWIM? I tried using it while Dylan was nursing but he got distracted by the pump and stop nursing to play with it. He tried to drink the milk out of it.









Sooooo, Ryan's girlfriend is taking a pregnancy test...


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> Are you tense when you are pumping? that affects me alot - I need to relax and distract myself in order to be more successful. You probably are both more focused and more relaxed when you hand express. Your body is also more accustomed to that vs. a pump. If it's important, keep at it. If not . . . well, it was a nice thought on Sean's part.


Yes, that's a big thing to me is being relaxed and calm. Nursing at the same time helps a lot, but as you've seen, gets harder when they're older!! lol

Sometimes I feel 'pinchy' if my breast isn't 'seated' in there properly. Try moving it around a bit, it might feel better. Also a tiny bit of a lubricant can sometimes help- breastmilk or coconut oil or something.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 

Haha, Carrie! Yeah, it sounds like acts of service are a big thing for your dh, maybe even more than sex. Is sexual touch even a LL? I thought the book said that was at least not _just_ about sex. I crave touch without sex. Like last night, for once dh actually snuggled up to me in bed. That was so nice.
The thing to do is try to keep that knowledge in your thoughts. Whenever you do remember and notice him doing something, acknowledge it to him. Acknowledge to yourself that he cleaned that whatever because that's his way of taking care of the people he loves, you and the kids. I bet Annie would be thrilled if her dh did what yours does.









So, I've tried this pump a few times. I don't like it. It kind of hurts and I'm afraid to pump it all the way. I haven't gotten more than a few drop of milk and none of it actually made it into the container. I got more with hand expressing and was able to put a few drops in Dylan's ear. Why would hand expressing work better than a pump?









The action of the pump is something your breast is totally not used to. I also can hand express very easily, a few drops, enough to use in an ear or an eye. But I've been trying to pump for my friend and it's not working. My body is just not responding well to the pump this time. Crazy b/c I used to pump all the time with the same pump and get 4-6 oz at a time. Give it time.

Don't forget too your supply for a toddler isn't about quantity. The milk is so rich at this age, there isn't as much as there would have been even 6 mo ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 

I probably am a little tense with the pump because it kind of hurt, like pinching. I think I probably got the same amount as when I hand express but because it has to travel farther and go through a sealed flange or whatever it is, there wasn't enough to actually make it into the container. When I hand express directly into a little cup the milk can just drip down into the cup. KWIM? I tried using it while Dylan was nursing but he got distracted by the pump and stop nursing to play with it. He tried to drink the milk out of it.










> Sooooo, Ryan's girlfriend is taking a pregnancy test...


I've tried a manual pump once and it was very pinchy. Are the flanges the right size?

OH MY about the pg test!!! EEEk! What are you feeling about this??

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *onetwoten*
> 
> Yes, that's a big thing to me is being relaxed and calm. Nursing at the same time helps a lot, but as you've seen, gets harder when they're older!! lol
> 
> Sometimes I feel 'pinchy' if my breast isn't 'seated' in there properly. Try moving it around a bit, it might feel better. Also a tiny bit of a lubricant can sometimes help- breastmilk or coconut oil or something.


Finn gets down right MAD when he sees me pumping. He will drop what he's doing and look at me offended, and cry and once he tried to grab it and throw it! It's too much!

AFM - I feel like DEATH! Sinus infection is hitting me HARD. I took zinc and vit c and D and am resting.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *onetwoten*
> 
> Sometimes I feel 'pinchy' if my breast isn't 'seated' in there properly. Try moving it around a bit, it might feel better. Also a tiny bit of a lubricant can sometimes help- breastmilk or coconut oil or something.


I tried moving it around. I don't know how to tell that it's positioned correctly. It didn't seem to matter how I positioned it. My nipples wouldn't go straight forward.







Is that wrong?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> I've tried a manual pump once and it was very pinchy. Are the flanges the right size?


I'm not sure what a flange is. There aren't that many pieces.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> OH MY about the pg test!!! EEEk! What are you feeling about this??


I'm trying to remain calm until I know the outcome. Yesterday she said her period was a couple of days late. She's been feeling run down, getting migraines and her breasts are sore. She said she already took one test because Ryan told her to and it was negative but I'm not sure she did it right and it may have just been too early. Ryan went to the Dollar Tree yesterday and got her another test. She was supposed to take it this morning but didn't. I think she's a little scared.

It wouldn't be ideal if she is pregnant, but I don't think it would be horrible, either. She and Ryan are both older than I was when I had him. I'm too freakin' young to be a grandma but that's another issue!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> Finn gets down right MAD when he sees me pumping. He will drop what he's doing and look at me offended, and cry and once he tried to grab it and throw it! It's too much!
> 
> AFM - I feel like DEATH! Sinus infection is hitting me HARD. I took zinc and vit c and D and am resting.


I hope you feel better soon. There is something nasty going around everywhere.

Dylan gets mad like that about things. He likes to pinch my nipples while he's nursing. When I move his hand away and block it, he unlatches and starts screaming and clawing at my shirt and acting crazy. It's like he has to prove that he can have that if he wants to. It is his!


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

MW, oh my goodness...I don't even know what I would do if my DSS 17's girlfriend was taking a pg test. Keep us posted!

I have had the strangest AF. I even took a pg test today because it is so weird. It's been so light, no cramping, no dark blood, just light, watery red blood.







Test was negative though.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> MW, oh my goodness...I don't even know what I would do if my DSS 17's girlfriend was taking a pg test. Keep us posted!


Well, they are 21 and 23, both working and they have been living together for a few months so it's not quite the same as a teenager who is still mostly dependent on his parents, but yeah...


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> Well, they are 21 and 23, both working and they have been living together for a few months so it's not quite the same as a teenager who is still mostly dependent on his parents, but yeah...


I know but it would still freak me out! I don't want to think about any of my kids having a baby before they're 30!


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## lyterae (Jul 10, 2005)

I'm just going to jump right in 

The love languages book is awesome, we just bought it to gift my brother for Christmas. He is in his first serious relationship and it seems like it might come in handy. My husband's love language is quality time, me spending an hour playing video games with him goes a long way in our relationship. My primary is definitely touch (holding hands, cuddling,etc..) outside of sex.

MW - Babies are exciting, I hope they get the answer they are hoping for. My mom was a young grandma and opted to be a "Nana" because it didn't sound as old.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lyterae*
> 
> MW - Babies are exciting, I hope they get the answer they are hoping for. My mom was a young grandma and opted to be a "Nana" because it didn't sound as old.


If I were to be completely honest, I'd have to admit that it is a little exciting. I'll wait until it actually happens before I express that to them, though. They are not in any kind of financial shape for supporting a child. They are serious, I guess, because they've been looking for a place to rent together but they aren't married and aren't talking about getting married. So, I don't want to accidentally encourage a baby in the near future if it's not already imminent. KWIM?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> I know but it would still freak me out! I don't want to think about any of my kids having a baby before they're 30!


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## lyterae (Jul 10, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> If I were to be completely honest, I'd have to admit that it is a little exciting. I'll wait until it actually happens before I express that to them, though. They are not in any kind of financial shape for supporting a child. They are serious, I guess, because they've been looking for a place to rent together but they aren't married and aren't talking about getting married. So, I don't want to accidentally encourage a baby in the near future if it's not already imminent. KWIM?


I completely understand, it makes lots of sense.

After spending nearly my whole day cleaning the basement (we started the project of "finishing" the basement back in April) it is mostly done. Sometimes all it seems is like I migrated the mess upstairs. *sigh*


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Lyterae - it's good to see you back here again! don't be a stranger (even though we see you on FB) - it's not the same

MW: Manually pumping for me is HARD. because it's hard to get a good rhythm, but once I do, I can do OK - I have the the lanisoh one. It's not the best pump, but it's one of the cheaper ones. Flange is the part that fits over your breast - it looks like a funnel. Here is a good link for how to tell if it fits well: http://www.amedaonline.com/howtogetgofi.html

Ryan and his GF - exciting stuff! - I get that she's nervous and everything, but I think in the end, it's better to know one way or the other, than to be freaked out. My mom started wondering about grandkids when I was in high school and she wasn't yet 40 (not that she really wanted them then, but was looking forward to it). She was a grandma by 45. Gabe calls her Grammy and my dad PaPa. MIL is Nana (she always wanted to be called that) and FIL is Granddaddy. They were 49? I think when Gabe was born. I am sure, whatever the test results are, that it will spur them further on a decision making process as the future goes. I'm glad they are serious. If Ryan were in the service, I'd be pushing for marriage (because I've seen too many stupid women hook up with servicemen and have their babies without marriage. And in the service, no marriage,no benefits, not good for the women and babies) But since he's not . . IDK I've become very meh on the subject. If there are kids, I think marriage is good - but I also really have come to believe that you can have a great, commited, monogomous relationship without it too. (Don't tell my parents, they'd freak LOL)

Annie - you're funny - and that's odd about AF. sometimes it's just off. I don't know when I want my kids having kids . . .when they're ready?

Carrie - I hope you feel better soon!

AFM: devalue - not valued AT ALL vs undervalue: not valued ENOUGH. big difference. I do alot, but sometimes I think I make the wrong choices - or at least could be making better ones. I do alot with the kids outside the house because, frankly, I really don't want to clean. But the house does need to be cleaned, and the dishes done, and laundry folded an put away. I don't have time or energy to do both of those things, but I choose the easier path. I guess I feel like I should be making more responsible choices. I just don't wanna LOL. I want to take care of and maintain my parents' house, and I am kind of sucking at that right now. At some point, I want to rearrange the master bedroom, take down border, and get new curtains. Not a big priority, but that's there on the wish list.

The lights at the park was great last night - the kids loved it, and it was fun to be out, and just slightly chilly. great weather. I think that's the last of the holiday activities until Christmas Eve. We showed Gabe Santa. Gabe waved, but wanted nowhere near him. Oh well. Not pushing, but thought we'd offer the opportunity. I need coffee.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> Ryan and his GF - exciting stuff! - I get that she's nervous and everything, but I think in the end, it's better to know one way or the other, than to be freaked out. My mom started wondering about grandkids when I was in high school and she wasn't yet 40 (not that she really wanted them then, but was looking forward to it). She was a grandma by 45. Gabe calls her Grammy and my dad PaPa. MIL is Nana (she always wanted to be called that) and FIL is Granddaddy. They were 49? I think when Gabe was born. I am sure, whatever the test results are, that it will spur them further on a decision making process as the future goes. I'm glad they are serious. If Ryan were in the service, I'd be pushing for marriage (because I've seen too many stupid women hook up with servicemen and have their babies without marriage. And in the service, no marriage,no benefits, not good for the women and babies) But since he's not . . IDK I've become very meh on the subject. If there are kids, I think marriage is good - but I also really have come to believe that you can have a great, committed, monogamous relationship without it too. (Don't tell my parents, they'd freak LOL)


I have talked to Ryan periodically about being careful. He kept telling me that she couldn't get pregnant but couldn't really give me any details on why. He just said something about her insides being all messed up. I told him, "Well, you know I was told by 3 different doctors that I could not get pregnant without fertility treatments but look at me now, 4 kids later."







I think I'll probably be a little disappointed if she's not pregnant.

It's driving me crazy that she hasn't taken another test yet! My testing obsession got so bad that when I found some old fertility tests while I was searching for any lost, hidden pg tests I had to take one just to get that out of my system.









I think marriage is better if there are kids only because it makes it at least a little harder to walk away. At the very least, you'd have to file papers with the court to set up a legal separation and then divorce. Sadly even today, it also gives the child a legal father. Without marriage you have to prove in court that the child is the father's before you can get child support. If you are married, the assumption is that the husband is the father and the man would have to prove in court that it wasn't if he was contesting it. At least, that's how it is in Virginia and I assume it's probably the same in most, if not all, the other states.

I don't know if things have changed but children of military members do get benefits, or at least they get TriCare medical coverage. I guess the mother wouldn't get it for prenatal care but she could always get Medicaid, which might be better.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> AFM: devalue - not valued AT ALL vs undervalue: not valued ENOUGH. big difference. I do alot, but sometimes I think I make the wrong choices - or at least could be making better ones. I do alot with the kids outside the house because, frankly, I really don't want to clean. But the house does need to be cleaned, and the dishes done, and laundry folded an put away. I don't have time or energy to do both of those things, but I choose the easier path. I guess I feel like I should be making more responsible choices. I just don't wanna LOL. I want to take care of and maintain my parents' house, and I am kind of sucking at that right now. At some point, I want to rearrange the master bedroom, take down border, and get new curtains. Not a big priority, but that's there on the wish list.


I guess I have a completely different perspective. I would think that your parents would start doing more for you since you are pregnant and have two other little kids to take care of. Really, that's what we need more of in this world, family members, grandparents, aunties and sisters taking care of pregnant women and mothers with young children.

Taking care of your children and making sure they are happy is responsible, but more importantly it is loving and caring and kind.







Remember that old adage about how your kids won't remember how clean the house was but they will remember whether or not they felt loved (or something like that).

And I know I've said it a gazillion times but I'll say it again.







None of those things NEED to be done. You do not HAVE to do any of them. I have found that when everything becomes a choice, it's a lot easier to do it all. Do what you want. Do what you can. Ask for more help from everyone around you. Let the rest go.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

The thing with choice is living with the consequences. I would rather clean, at some point, than live in a stinky house full of mold and roaches, and it's not safe for the kids either, which also makes it not a valid option, IMHO.

My parents do help out a ton - when we are upstairs, they do a good bit of the playing, my mom cooks dinner most nights, and they both work (and my dad is also in school full time) - I couldn't ask them to do more. If we lived completely on our own, I think I'd go crazy. I try really hard not to abuse their help.

i think kids can get benefits - so long as the military member claims them (and that's the biggie, isn't it?) I don't know if much has changed, but when we lived there, choosing between Onslow memorial and the Naval Hospital was a tough one - neither were stellar options. IDK why (because we rarly needed hospital services) but neither one had a great reputation.

My MIL would probably help out more - But I don't know if I want her too. Gabe doesn't like being left over there much lately. He watches us like a hawk when we go visit to make sure we aren't going to sneak off and leave him. He usually does enjoy the time he spends there with FIL though. I wish he were at the point where we could get him to tell us more. I don't think anything bad is happening, only that the fun is severely limited and it's kind of boring. He likes being there, as long as we are there too. I think it's just a phase. MIL I think hopes it will be like when DH was small and he hated going home, and always wanted to be with his grandparents. He'd fight and fight to go stay with them and not at home. I don't think that's going to happen with Gabe.

We have a busy weekend coming up - 2 birthday parties on Saturday. Cookie baking with MIL on Sunday . . . I'm looking forward to the 4 day weekend.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> The thing with choice is living with the consequences. I would rather clean, at some point, than live in a stinky house full of mold and roaches, and it's not safe for the kids either, which also makes it not a valid option, IMHO.


You're missing the point, I think. I didn't say to not do anything. It's a mental mindshift. Stop thinking of all these things as "have tos" because they really are not. Everything you do at every moment is a choice. You are making a choice whether you realize it or not. Start to be conscious of your choices instead of looking around at all of those things and seeing them as things you have to do.

Obviously, you don't have to do them because you have said you choose to take the kids out rather than stay home and do them. If you really aren't happy with that choice, then make another one next time. If you are happy with your choice, then turn off the voices inside your head that are trying to make you feel like you are being irresponsible. Where do those voices come from? Your family, society?

Somewhere along the line you have gotten the message that you are irresponsible, wrong (bad?) if you don't do certain things. You maybe see taking the kids out for fun stuff as goofing off when you should be doing more important, productive things like chores. I think that's very common. I would guess that most people think that way. That's a very common attitude. You must do work or chores or school, all those things that aren't "fun", before you can do anything you truly enjoy. You can never have dessert until after you've eaten dinner. That's a very sad way to live, imo. You should enjoy life as much as you can and get rid of those old voices in your head that are trying to ruin it for you.


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## lyterae (Jul 10, 2005)

Rough day today. It's been 3 weeks since I miscarried, my relationships just feel fake anymore, including my marriage unfortunatley. I'm having a terrible time connecting with people. My house is cleaner than it has been in years, I'm not doing it conciously but I think I'm avoiding dealing with my emotions or thinking by cleaning. At this point in time as I couldn't even say what is actually wrong, I just feel empty.


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> The thing with choice is living with the consequences. I would rather clean, at some point, than live in a stinky house full of mold and roaches, and it's not safe for the kids either, which also makes it not a valid option, IMHO.


Yes!! I mean yes, technically MW you are right, it's a "choice" to clean, or to make dinner, etc etc. But let's be realistic, eating isn't a choice, and some choice options are just not valid for a realistic right. Yes, -technically- we could all 'choose' to order in every night and hire a housecleaner. But after we put ourselves severely into debt, that kind of stops being an option. If we want to keep our kids and be healthy then there are certain facts of life that just... are. Obviously there's a choice to some things, you can make a decision as to how clean the house is going to be, or whether you're going to do it tonight or tomorrow, but in reality, these choices aren't always entirely within our control or black and white.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> You're missing the point, I think. I didn't say to not do anything. It's a mental mindshift. Stop thinking of all these things as "have tos" because they really are not. Everything you do at every moment is a choice. You are making a choice whether you realize it or not.


This kind of reminds me of when people say "Oh you just need to reframe your mind. Don't say 'my baby doesn't sleep', say 'I'm tired and need more sleep'," and for them apparently, that makes a huge difference and suddenly they're all ok again. But there's definitely people for which that reframing does not work. You're still tired at the end of the day. And at the end of the day, (week, month...) the house still needs to get clean at some point.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *lyterae*
> 
> Rough day today. It's been 3 weeks since I miscarried, my relationships just feel fake anymore, including my marriage unfortunatley. I'm having a terrible time connecting with people. My house is cleaner than it has been in years, I'm not doing it conciously but I think I'm avoiding dealing with my emotions or thinking by cleaning. At this point in time as I couldn't even say what is actually wrong, I just feel empty.


Oh hun *hugs* Give yourself time. Miscarriage is such a hard thing because not only are you dealing with your own emotions, but trying to tiptoe around everyone else too. I'm so sorry that you have to go through this


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> You should enjoy life as much as you can and get rid of those old voices in your head that are trying to ruin it for you.












Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lyterae*
> 
> Rough day today. It's been 3 weeks since I miscarried, my relationships just feel fake anymore, including my marriage unfortunatley. I'm having a terrible time connecting with people. My house is cleaner than it has been in years, I'm not doing it conciously but I think I'm avoiding dealing with my emotions or thinking by cleaning. At this point in time as I couldn't even say what is actually wrong, I just feel empty.










Be gentle with yourself. Clean if you need to clean, if that is where you need to put your focus right now. I can't imagine your sadness and grief. The people who love you will be there for you when you are ready.









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *onetwoten*
> 
> Yes!! I mean yes, technically MW you are right, it's a "choice" to clean, or to make dinner, etc etc. But let's be realistic, eating isn't a choice, and some choice options are just not valid for a realistic right. Yes, -technically- we could all 'choose' to order in every night and hire a housecleaner. But after we put ourselves severely into debt, that kind of stops being an option. If we want to keep our kids and be healthy then there are certain facts of life that just... are. Obviously there's a choice to some things, you can make a decision as to how clean the house is going to be, or whether you're going to do it tonight or tomorrow, but in reality, these choices aren't always entirely within our control or black and white.


I think it's more about the "shoulds" that we hear in the back of our minds. Let them go. Sure we "should" clean the house and we should wear a hat when it's cold. But who really cares? We feel like we should b/c we are raised being told we should. We don't NEED to do those things just because someone else thinks we ought to. If we make the CHOICE of our own free will to clean b/c it makes us happy/keeps us healthy, then that's our choice. If we wear a hat b/c WE don't want to be cold, we made that choice. Nobody is telling us we NEED to do those things. We choose to do them b/c they are our choice to do.

MW - you are really rubbing off on me!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lyterae*
> 
> Rough day today. It's been 3 weeks since I miscarried, my relationships just feel fake anymore, including my marriage unfortunatley. I'm having a terrible time connecting with people. My house is cleaner than it has been in years, I'm not doing it conciously but I think I'm avoiding dealing with my emotions or thinking by cleaning. At this point in time as I couldn't even say what is actually wrong, I just feel empty.


It has only been 3 weeks. That's not a very long time to grieve. Take care of yourself.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Exactly, Carrie.

JJ ~ All of those are still choices. You do not have to do any of it. You could choose to give your kids up. You could decide you don't care about being healthy. People make even more extreme choices than that every day. Acknowledging all the options does not make them all equal or valid but they are still options. If you refuse to accept that there are lots of options and you are choosing to do what you do every moment of every day, that's your choice.







That's the reality.

It's not the same as changing the way you think about being physically tired. You are right that you will still be tired even if you change the way you think about it. However, if you change the way you think about it, you might not be perpetually angry with your child because of it. That change in thinking can help find solutions that are based on anger. If one is so sleep-deprived that she cannot function, she has the option of putting her child in a safe place so she can get some rest. Asking for help and making it clear how desperate she is important. I think a lot of people ask for help but don't convey how serious the situation is.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Lyterae - it's been 3 weeks? Give yourself some time to grieve - If you need a place to talk about it, we are here for that (but also, if you are't ready or don't want to) - Loss is such a personal, intimate thing. It's going to take some time to reconnect with other people, when I'm sure you have a hard time even connecting to yourself - (BTW, come clean my house?) - When you can, let other people help you - hugs, meals, whatever. And hold your other kids tight. They miss you. My mother had 2 losses (a still birth and a baby that died shortly after) and I don't know how long it took her to re-connect with us - I just know she was sad for a long time. I think focusing on some things outside herself (for her it was diet/excersise) helped the most.

Just, hugs. lots of them.

I don't think I can reframe it anyway that will make me enjoy cleaning. I like the end result  And I will admit I can be picky about how it's done - but I am far less that way than I used to be. And honestly, I do choose to have fun 9 times out of 10 rather than do things that "should" be done, and that's a problem. Because by putting it off, it only makes it worse, and then it's a huge job I really don't have the energy for. I don't hate the cleaning as much as I used to - or even dread it - it's just something I'd rather not do. I have a running list in my head of the things that I want to be done but I can never get around to it because of the basic stuff. - Like organizing. I *LOVE* organizing. I may suck at keeping things that way, but I like to do it. Mind is going blank. I need more caffeine.

JJ: hope Ten is doing well! and staying healthy.

I hope everyone stays healthy. The colds going around this season seem to be awful.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Lyterae, I'm so sorry about your loss. I don't think we are friends on FB but feel free to friend me if you would like. My real name is Lauri. I'm friends w/MW, Baby_Cakes, akind1 and JJ.

Baby_Cakes, I meant to say something about your DH's love language. Are you sure his primary is physical touch? A lot of men assume their primary love language is physical touch because they are more sexual creatures but that's different than physical touch. My DH's secondary love language is physical touch. He likes to hold hands, give and get back rubs, hug, snuggle, etc. I have to work really hard at that because I have sensory issues and sometimes it DRIVES ME CRAZY.

Taking Ava to get her pictures done at Olan Mills tomorrow. We'll see how that goes. Oh and the last two nights, she's not needed a bottle after I got home. So I've been able to sleep 6-7 hrs straight. Thank goodness!


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

appointment later this morning - yay - I'd take DS with me, except I don't know what to do with him while I PIAC and all that. I think he'd like to hear the heart beat. Oh well. Then the Chiropractor later this afternoon. busy day.

Lauri - hope the pics go well. Ava is such a ham - you may not get the pictures you expect, but I bet they will still be adorable!


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

I know I've said it before but I miss OB appointments! Have fun listening to baby boy's heartbeat. Do you not want him to see you peeing in a cup? Or are you worried he's going to get in to something? I'd probably take him but I'm a fast pee-er so there's not much time for mischief.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Ha! the kid sees me peeing all the time - we don't ever shut doors. It's more or less I'm not sure how the office handles that. Most people bring another person to help with any children.

And I have stage fright when it comes to PIAC. I have to drink a lot and hold my pee for a couple hours beforehand in order to be able to perform, LOL. You'd think by the 3rd kid, I'd be a pro!

I don't mind appointments. They are a bit of a hassle to tell you not much you don't know already, but I do like hearing the heartbeat.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> I don't think I can reframe it anyway that will make me enjoy cleaning.


I don't think it's necessarily about enjoying it. It's more about not dreading it. A lot of that dread comes from the idea that you _have_ to do it (whether you realize that voice is running in your head or not). It can also help to come up with other ways of getting things done if you don't feel like you are the one who should be doing it.

I would just take Gabe in the bathroom with you. I've never been to a doctor's office where I got any sense that anyone thought that was strange.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> Baby_Cakes, I meant to say something about your DH's love language. Are you sure his primary is physical touch? A lot of men assume their primary love language is physical touch because they are more sexual creatures but that's different than physical touch.










That's what I was getting at when I asked if there even was a "sexual touch" LL. I'm pretty sure the book specifically distinguishes between the physical touch LL and sex. They are not the same.

Onto other business.







Do your toddlers fuss a lot? Dylan seems to fuss and cry and scream and get angry a lot. I know being a toddler can be very frustrating because he wants to do so much more than he can. This morning he had a screaming fit because I wouldn't let him get a roll of toilet paper out. He pushes and hits and screams and flops himself on the floor. I swear Ethan and Kellen didn't do that. I do remember Ethan being fussy sometimes but not like that. I don't remember Kellen being like that at all. He was very chill. It upsets me because I'm worried that it means he's not getting enough love and attention just because I have other kids I have to do things for, too.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Finn has started to fuss a LOT and throw down. He's tantrumming over what I think are little things, that I used to easily be able to redirect or substitute. ("No you can't have Nora's baby, but here is your baby," cue screaming crying fit, running off and throwing himself down on the floor).

Anyway.

I'll put some thought into what you're saying about physical touch. It's a bit of an eye opener to realize acts of service is one of his love languages. That might even be his primary one, I'm not sure. We are so caught up in arguing over sex lately, I feel like it must be the only way he knows how to show his love.

I'm still sick. My ears are clogged and I'm dizzy from it. How do I make garlic oil?

Going to take the kids for a walk - hopefully the fresh cold air will help us all feel a bit better. Need to get some exercise, too. I am really down about my weight lately. When I was nursing Nora the weight just came off, no issues. It's not happening this time. I looked in the mirror the other day and I realized I truly look like 5 mo pregnant. Sigh.


----------



## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> Finn has started to fuss a LOT and throw down. He's tantrumming over what I think are little things, that I used to easily be able to redirect or substitute. ("No you can't have Nora's baby, but here is your baby," cue screaming crying fit, running off and throwing himself down on the floor).


That is exactly the type of thing Dylan does. I guess it was easy to redirect Ethan because most of the toys were his anyway. There weren't many fun, exciting things that he wasn't allowed to play with. Kellen was easy because he was just chill (Now he's my spaz.







) Ethan was the one I had to set up to not be bothered. Kellen would pretty much do whatever.

Dylan seems to want to do everything just because someone has told him he can't.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> We are so caught up in arguing over sex lately, I feel like it must be the only way he knows how to show his love.


He may not consciously know how else to express it. Most males are conditioned from birth to not show emotion or love or tenderness. It's a sign of weakness. There have been studies that show that people unconsciously treat baby boys rougher than baby girls. Baby girls get more hugs and kisses and coos. Baby boys get more tossing and tickling and playing. The only acceptable intimate behavior that men are allowed to express is sexual. So, it might help if you can talk to him about paying attention to and being conscious of how he feels when he or you do any of the other LLs. You can certainly tell him that you think that acts of service is a big one for him. He may have no idea that he is expressing that as a LL.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> I'm still sick. My ears are clogged and I'm dizzy from it. How do I make garlic oil?


The fast way is to sautee some smashed garlic cloves in hot olive oil for 10-15 minutes, strain and let cool. The slow way is to drop some smashed garlic cloves in some oil in a jar and set on a sill in the sun for a couple of weeks. Nasal rinsing can help, too, since it's all connected.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> Need to get some exercise, too. I am really down about my weight lately. When I was nursing Nora the weight just came off, no issues. It's not happening this time. I looked in the mirror the other day and I realized I truly look like 5 mo pregnant. Sigh.


I'm in the same boat. That's exactly what I thought when I looked at my belly yesterday. I look about 5 months pg. I've gained 15-17 lbs. since May, most of it since after Williamsburg. I'm seriously beginning to wonder if I need to see a doctor because I was losing weight so well before then. My body has seemed to switch and the weight seemed to come on so fast. I haven't had a check up since before I was pg with Dylan.

I also wonder if it's from taking Zoloft. I started out at 25 mg. I gained a little weight but that was maybe normal because my appetite had increased some. Also, I was at my mom's at the time and she was feeding me and helping me so that I actually had time to sit down and eat. After September, though, the doc bumped me up to 50 mg and that's when I started noticing the weight packing back on. I asked the doc if the meds could cause and weight. He, of course, said no so I googled it. Sure enough, I found info that antidepressants can cause weight gain. It's just not clear how or why. So, I stopped taking the zoloft a little over a week ago. If I don't start to lose weight again in the next month or so (maybe I shouldn't expect much over the holiday







), I'll make a doctor's appointment.

I also went for a walk yesterday. It was so nice outside and I really need to get up and move more.


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

Every time I type something on here, the baby wakes up!!!!

Lyterae - I am so sorry for your loss. I can't imagine the pain you must feel. Give yourself time.

Talking about baby-proofing etc.

We live with my MIL for now. She had a glass coffee table that I have moved. But she still has glass side tables. Oye!

We finally got rid of that ugly glass dining table, and moved the glass coffee table away, she had no choice, my children need to be safe.

On the subject of safe. After showing hubby links and videos about rear-facing and the importance of it, he has not mentioned it again and when Eddie's new seat came in he installed it rear-facing. 

Gonna read along and respond a little later. I need to get in the habit of coming on here and not on FB all the time. lol!!!!!


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

EM: you do what you have to to make the house safe for littles. With MIL, I had to take the initiative and do that. Otherwise I spent too much time redirecting. In living with my own parents (because they are more sane, or more used to kids?) my mom sees issues as they happen and works to eliminate potential hazards. The only lasting one we've had is the dog food, which we've moved so that dog still has access, but isn't as visible to Norah, so she mostly stays out of it.

Norah is a screamer. Happy, sad, mad, or whatever, it's just how she communicates. It's a little frustrating.

MW: tips on how to set up Gabe his own play space? he doesn't really have toys that Norah shouldn't play with, but he does sometimes want to play without her interference (which I think he should be allowed to do when he wants to do)


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> EM: you do what you have to to make the house safe for littles. With MIL, I had to take the initiative and do that. Otherwise I spent too much time redirecting. In living with my own parents (because they are more sane, or more used to kids?) my mom sees issues as they happen and works to eliminate potential hazards. The only lasting one we've had is the dog food, which we've moved so that dog still has access, but isn't as visible to Norah, so she mostly stays out of it.
> 
> ...


I am getting a gate that has a kitty door so the cat can get to his food and eddie will leave it alone. Dog food is not a worry because the dogs eat their food as it gets put in the bowl. They never leave their food in the dish and walk away. They eat it all at once.

Do you have an area in the house that you could turn into Gabe's space? Maybe with a few gates so Norag can't access it? Maybe even a space in the kitchen, maybe the kitchen table if he is into building stuff, he could build lego's (example) on the table!?


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

EM ~ It's like spidey sense. Dylan can be playing as happily as can be with his back to me but as soon as I think it's safe and pick up my knitting his head whips around and he comes at me screaming.








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> MW: tips on how to set up Gabe his own play space? he doesn't really have toys that Norah shouldn't play with, but he does sometimes want to play without her interference (which I think he should be allowed to do when he wants to do)


I got one of those play yard fence thingies and set it up in the middle of the room. Ethan really would not go in another room by himself until he was probably 5, maybe even 6, so it had to be something that kept him in the same room with me. I think that's better than getting a playpen or whatever for the baby because the older child can come in and out of it as he wishes. KWIM? The only thing I wish was that I had splurged a little and gotten one with a swinging gate/door so that I didn't have to lift Ethan in and out every time.

Like this: http://www.onestepahead.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=488757&parentCategoryId=85183&categoryId=85217

I really like this one for a younger child like Gabe: http://www.onestepahead.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=6193&parentCategoryId=85183&categoryId=85217


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

We had one like that, but I tripped over it and broke it, LOL - my main problem with that, is Norah would stand outside of it and scream if Gabe was inside, or scream to get out if she was on the insde. The child will not leave Gabe in peace. She is literally up his butt even as he sleeps. (have you seen the pics on facebook )

I like the idea of the table - need to clean ours off - and he could work up there. She can't yet climb on those chairs, but she can get on the couch. Monkey.

The dog thinks she's a cat. She was eating the same food as the cat until the vet told my parents to stop this week with doing that. Freckles is now in pouty-cat-food-withdrawl mood. She's not accustomed to the dog food yet. Poor thing.

Obviously, OB appt went well. I'm happy because my blood pressure is back down. It had been up the last two visits - the first one was a few days before Norah's birthday party when we announced pregnancy and I was freaking out about MIL's reaction. the one before this was the GTT. Now that stress is down, so is BP. hooray! This baby is so active. and I'm measuring a bit ahead. He's already all up in my rib cage, in a way I don't remember with the others. But maybe I have amnesia.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Fit throwing...oh man. We're so there. Ava throws fits about EVERYTHING. She's Miss Drama lately. It's the worst thing ever that I make her sit in her carseat and not let her play in the van all day. It's the worst thing ever if I don't let her walk across the street and carry her instead. It's the worst thing ever if I won't let her repeatedly open and close the freezer. Sometimes it's like she thinks she's as old as the rest of the people in the house and she should be able to do all the things that she sees us do. But she can't. Because she's 28" tall.









The photo session today...man, I should have taken a xanex or something beforehand! We arrived a few minutes early and the baby before her went long and there are no doors on the photo studio and Ava kept going to the door to watch which would distract the other baby. Ugh. So then we got about 10 mins in to the session and the photographer tried to take away the Elmo she had been playing with while we changed scenes. Oh boy. Screaming, tears, red face. Photo session over. Then since the baby in front of us had such a long session, that family had like 50 photos to go through and choose pics. So by the time I sat down with Ava's pics, it had been almost an hour since her pics were taken. Ava was toast. And the photo girl was trying to make cards and crap and I was just like "let me get my $7.99 coupon package and get the hell out of here!"...gah!

You guys, I think Ava is weaning herself and I'm super sad. I'm kicking myself now for introducing that vanilla milk. That's what she wants now, even when it's cut with regular milk. I was just so freaked out when I was hardly getting anything out last week. Ohhhh. I want to cry. She wouldn't even drink her bottle of BM at nap. Although, I think her throat was hurting her so maybe it's just a fluke. She would suck for 30 seconds or so and then cry.

What are the babies getting for Christmas? Ava is getting a shopping cart, a stuffed Elmo, the book Click Clack Moo, Cows That Type, a Thomas the Train carrying case with stickers and an Elmo sippy cup w/straw. And playdough in her stocking.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> Fit throwing...oh man. We're so there. Ava throws fits about EVERYTHING. She's Miss Drama lately. It's the worst thing ever that I make her sit in her carseat and not let her play in the van all day. It's the worst thing ever if I don't let her walk across the street and carry her instead. It's the worst thing ever if I won't let her repeatedly open and close the freezer. Sometimes it's like she thinks she's as old as the rest of the people in the house and she should be able to do all the things that she sees us do. But she can't. Because she's 28" tall.
> 
> ...


Well, I'm sorry everyone is having to deal with drama but I'm glad it's not just my toddler.









I always have the same issue with the photographers. It takes forever to get through looking at the photos to pick what we want to order. I have to take dh with me so that he can take the kids out once we are done. There is no way I could sit there and go through all those photos and pick poses and packages and specialty items with them afterward because they are all done.

Hm...can you just stop the vanilla milk and got back to just BM? Maybe just have water to drink from a cup for when she doesn't want the BM.

We only have two things for Dylan. A mini pillow pet because the older boys each have one and everyone loves them and a mini trampoline that I actually expect Kellen to use more.







I seriously told dh that I'm just going to wrap up some of the toys we already have. I've been through the stores so many times and there is nothing that we don't already have in one form or another. The only other thing I could come up with was a laptop that plays game and works more like a real laptop rather than one of those educational ones with the mini screen. That's just so he will leave everyone else alone when they are on a computer.


----------



## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> Well, I'm sorry everyone is having to deal with drama but I'm glad it's not just my toddler.
> 
> ...


Maybe I can just keep the vanilla milk over at the sitter and not have any in the house. I hadn't offered her any today and when she woke up from nap, she was sitting on the couch and I was packing her bag to go to the sitter and she saw one of the cartons in her bag and she snatched it out and kept shoving it at me going "Unh! Unh! Unh!" So I gave it to her. But this morning when she woke up, I showed her a tube of breastmilk and asked her if she wanted some and she said no. She didn't ask for the other milk, she just said no to the breastmilk.









Finding presents for this age is hard especially when they have older siblings. What about a ball? Ava always loves getting balls. Or a new book. Play tent? Play tunnel?


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Oh! And I got awesome news today! Ava's sitter asked me if I would be her doula! I haven't attended a birth since before I got pregnant with Ava so I'm super excited. AND as fate would have it, I got an email tonight from my doula group that one of our local hospitals has set up a meeting for Feb for doulas to get a tour of the new hospital and have a roundtable discussion with the head CBE and some of the nurses. So awesome!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> Finding presents for this age is hard especially when they have older siblings. What about a ball? Ava always loves getting balls. Or a new book. Play tent? Play tunnel?


We have a play tent and tunnel. I saw a fun looking inflatable obstacle course but it would take up so much space that I don't think we have anywhere to put it and keep it up. I put balls on his wish list for someone else to get. My stepsis always teases that whenever she asks what one of the boys wants I say, "balls." She doesn't have kids so she doesn't get it but they really do love balls of all kinds. We always do books but my mom comes and leaves books in secret places without saying anything so we have a ton. There is literally nothing that we don't already have.

The idea weaning is sad but it's not the end of the world. If Ava weans now, it's ok. She has got a lot of BM in her and she's healthy and happy and good to go. Ryan weaned at just a little over 12 months. I was sad but there was nothing I could do at that point. He was done. I didn't mean to wean him but I guess I did help it along by feeding him solids so much.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Christmas: Norah is getting playsilks and a sort of tissue box to store them (so she can pull them out, hopefully, instead of tissues - among other things one can do with playsilks), a doll, and a box with a couple books and a pillow pet mini. My mom is getting her some toys (a doll house, some ball popper thing that requires batteries, and IDK what else. She's in charge of the annoying toys that stay with grammy LOL). MIL is getting Norah books.

Gabe is getting a 3 wheeled radio flyer scooter with helmet, an imaginext space station, and one other thing that I've forgotten. He was going to get a doll too, but I am sticking to my 3 gift rule per kid, and decided he could play with my old dolls instead. MIL is also getting him a toy dinosaur, I don't know what all my mom has gotten him.

MW: while we may not have as many toys and stuff as you, I hear you - it's hard to give people ideas - I honestly don't want more things, and with kids so close in age, they really don't NEED more. As Gabe gets older, he will be getting things that perhaps Norah shouldn't play with yet, but that's it. I love the idea of the open ended Waldorf-y type toys. I wish they were cheaper LOL

Annie: yay on the doula stuff! are you part of a hospital doula program, or do local doulas have connections with the hospital? I don't know that our local hospital would be so on top of the doula things. They do have a free doula program, but I'm not a huge fan. You don't mee tthe doula until you're at the hospital, and I want to meet my doula and make sure she works with us before seeing me in the midst of labor.

Weaning - hugs. I still am sad about Norah's weaning. She won't take the breast when offered, just pokes and pinches my nipple. The only thing that makes it bearable is knowing she's not my last nursling. I HATE that she nursed for such a "short" time (11 months and 3 weeks, LOL - so much longer than a lot of people I know!) One one hand, I don't really like nursing while pregnant, but on the other, I really enjoy nursing in general. *sigh* and hugs. Not much you can do if she's not interested, unless she's just going through a strike? It's up to you whether to push through it (keep pumping and offering, and she might regain interest) or take the opportunity to wean.

I am so ready for Christmas to be here and done. Though I'm not looking forward to seeing DH's family. Evidently at a birthday party this last weekend, Norah was trying to go into the 3 year old's bedroom to play with toys (because that's where ALL the toys were) and her dad (who doesn't have custody of her - this is at the grandma's house, who does) kept blocking her and telling her no that she coudn't go in there, and he *may* have smacked her hands. 1) she barely knows this guy 2) why the world are you even *thinking* about putting your hands on someone elses child in an unkind manner 3) why would you not let a kid play in a kid's room? Neither Wayne, nor I, nor MIL knew about this until yesterday, when one of DH's aunts called to talk about it. HELLO. if you see this crap, come get me so I can lay into the idiot. you do not mess with a pregnant mama bear.

He's not supposed to be at Christmas dinner, but we will see. (he's not invited, but idiots tend to show up when unwanted) GaHHHHH.

Sorry - All of us are very hot about it. Next time we see him, he's gonna get an earful from at least 3, if not more, very angry mama bears!


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> Sometimes it's like she thinks she's as old as the rest of the people in the house and she should be able to do all the things that she sees us do. But she can't. Because she's 28" tall.
> 
> ...


LOL! So true. Tenley wants to play on our laptops and phones, and with the remote, and she mimics us so well, but yeah... just a toddler, lol, not an adult or teenager.

We have a family/ Tenley photo shoot tomorrow afternoon. I'm so excited, but also nervous about how she's going to do. We're going for two hours, and it will be partly outside and partly inside in a studio. I'm assuming I'm going to have to nurse her partway through to kind of help her mood. We went last night to find outfit help, and couldn't find anything I loved. But I think it'll be ok. The photog seems like she's pretty good at just shooting naturally and not worrying about it being posed and perfect. I like that, and I think it'll help.

Ohhh Annie  I imagine that's such a hard thing, especially since you have put SO much effort and time into this. But if she is weaning, don't forget to be thankful for how much milk you've been able to give her. 18 months of breastmilk is HUGE for her!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> Oh! And I got awesome news today! Ava's sitter asked me if I would be her doula! I haven't attended a birth since before I got pregnant with Ava so I'm super excited. AND as fate would have it, I got an email tonight from my doula group that one of our local hospitals has set up a meeting for Feb for doulas to get a tour of the new hospital and have a roundtable discussion with the head CBE and some of the nurses. So awesome!


That's so exciting!! I've been so excited to attend births since my birth, but alas, not meant to be right now.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> Christmas: Norah is getting playsilks and a sort of tissue box to store them (so she can pull them out, hopefully, instead of tissues - among other things one can do with playsilks), a doll, and a box with a couple books and a pillow pet mini. My mom is getting her some toys (a doll house, some ball popper thing that requires batteries, and IDK what else. She's in charge of the annoying toys that stay with grammy LOL). MIL is getting Norah books.
> 
> ...


Oooh playsilks in a tissue box is brilliant!!

I was wondering about the weaning too. From what I understand, this is a common time for a nursing strike. It could just be that.

For gifts-- we didn't end up getting nealy as many quality wooden or waldorf type toys as I wanted. We ended up getting more things that we needed, since I know she won't care as long as she gets to open something! lol Right now under the tree we have plastic bowls, plastic cups, an Ikea pots and pans set, a new diaper, a new wetbag, maybe another 4 diapers if they get here in time, and that might be almost it. Her big gift was supposed to be the kitchen we're making, which is going to be probably $150 after we finish, so we didn't spend a lot of money on other things. Unfortunately... the kitchen isn't ready yet! lol So it'll be more like a valentines present!!

But, she also has tons coming from family, a little people farm, a plasma car, more books, play food, a leapfrog doll, blocks, a leapfrog picnic basket, a stroller and bathtub for her baby. Those are just the gifts we know about, plus what she got from her birthday. I figure we'll go through our wishlist in a few months again and decide what else we want to give her, and maybe make Easter a gift opportunity in our home from now on. Who knows.

Anyways... nap time apparently.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I don't like those kinds of hospital doula programs. It seems to me to be just another way for doctors and hospitals to control things. How can you possibly get the kind of support you want from a doula if you don't meet the person until you are in the hospital in labor? That just doesn't make sense for that kind of thing. I guess it may still be nice for some people who hadn't thought about a doula and suddenly find themselves in need of someone to just be with them. The doula I had at Kellen's home birth got so frustrated with the hospitals and doctors here that she quit. She said it was too much of a fight every single time and she is a very strong, outspoken person. The medical personnel would constantly interfere and not let her do her job.









I like open ended toys but I'm not a Waldorf fan. I read up on the Waldorf philosophy when Kellen was a little baby because a friend had her older child in a Waldorf co-op so I was interested. It's very strange, other worldly (and kind of creepy to me, anyway). I have also found that kids can come up with all kinds of new and interesting ways to play with even the most limited looking toys. Of course, you may not want them doing that with a computer or iPad.









I told dh yesterday that I'd like to get a laptop for Dylan. He wants so badly to bang on ours, which is not a good idea. I tried to get my old one to work using one of the Linux boot discs my dad gave me but they all want logins and passwords. I don't remember any of them.







Anyway, I have not been able to find a computer for a toddler/young child that works pretty much like ours rather than one of those "educational" ones with a tiny screen and just reading, writing, spelling and math programs. I put a Kindle Fire on my Amazon wish list and told dh about it. Hopefully, he'll get that for me. Then I can get a protective cover for it so Dylan can use it. I saw some specifically for toddlers at TRU. I let him play on my phone but he can't really do it on his own yet. He also got Kellen's Mobigo and he likes to play with that but, again, he's not quite where he can really do it alone yet so it gets frustrating for everyone after a little while.

I didn't think about a nursing strike. Does that apply to bottle feeding?

I would lose it a stranger put his hands on my child like that! I guess if you aren't sure he actually touched her, then it's best not to freak about it. But I'd keep a much closer eye on the both of them if they are ever around each other again. Maybe block from entry into the house if he shows up for Christmas.









OMG! A neighbor boy just came over, came inside, petted the cat for a second, asked where Ethan was (he's still sleeping) and then left without saying a word and left my front door wide open. WTH? He's 6, I think. He has an older brother who is 8 or 9. Everyone fights with the older brother. I feel bad for him because no one wants to play with him but he's mean. He has actually grabbed Ethan by the neck and thrown him on the ground a couple of times. He's done the same sort of thing with some of the other boys. He gets angry and calls them names and says he's going to punch them or kill them a lot. Ryan said he's heard their dad doing essentially the same thing to them, calling them shitheads right out on the street.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

MW we got Nora Nintendo DS when she was 3, b/c we looked at all those leap pad type things and felt the same way. Just too limited and not worth the money.

Totally could be a strike, lauri. But I agree with MW. Weaning IS natural and normal, and isn't your fault or anything you have done wrong. While the average age might be 4 or 5, there are kids who are ready to wean earlier (I think they are the more independent sassy types, myself, Nora weaned early with no fight, and Ava is such an independent little thing). That said, keep offering if you aren't ready to be done yet. No harm in that. ((hugs)) b/c it is truly bittersweet!







 Don't forget how amazing you have done pumping exclusively for her and giving her milk for this long.

Gifts, gifts, gifts. I'll prob forget a few b/c I'm done wrapping already, but! I (and family) got for Finn:

A set of Lincoln Logs

Kitchen helper to share with Nora

plastic funnels from Ikea

puppets from Ikea

fisher price Servin' surprises kitchen with the bday cake set.

T ball set (to share)

Green toys Firetruck and a firetruck touch and feel book (his uncle is a firefighter), and a M&D firetruck floor puzzle

Green Toys dump truck

B Carosel bells (looked cool!)

Viewmaster (to share)

M&D click clack frog pull toy

Jumbo zoo animals figurines

plus assorted clothes, and odds and ends I've picked up here and there. Oh and my MIL got him some huge pirate ship from Jake and the Neverland Pirates.

AFM - still sick. Ugh. I was up coughing all night until I took benadryl at 2 am just so I could fall asleep! Ugh. It's all in my chest and throat apparently. And my sinuses, but not my nose. I'm not runny at all -- ti's just pressure and my ears hurt. Does using garlic oil in your ears make your mouth taste like you ate italian tho? Ha!

Mw - Waldorf creeps me out, too. I don't like it at all.

When I become a doula, I hope that I can get to know enough of the personnel at hospitals that they like me, but I wouldn't want to be a hospital doula. For the same reason I couldn't be a hospital LC. I think I would be too directed by the hospital to really help anyone. I would ideally like to run bf'ing classes, and be primarily a homebirth/transfer doula.


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> I like open ended toys but I'm not a Waldorf fan. I read up on the Waldorf philosophy when Kellen was a little baby because a friend had her older child in a Waldorf co-op so I was interested. It's very strange, other worldly (and kind of creepy to me, anyway). I have also found that kids can come up with all kinds of new and interesting ways to play with even the most limited looking toys. Of course, you may not want them doing that with a computer or iPad.
> 
> ...


We looked at the leapfrog iphone case for kids that I think you're talkng about. I don't think Tenley is ready for it yet either though. Maybe in the summer or next year. Right now she just bashes buttons, even on the games I've found, she's not quite at that stage yet. I'm not a huge fan of kids having many electronics this early on, but I think it depends on the kids too. My nieces all have super addictive personalities, so for instance my oldest niece is 8-- she has an actual laptop, one of those kids laptops you mentioned, an ipod touch with a program added on so that she can make phone calls, an ipod shuffle of some sort, a 3DS, and those are just the recent things she's had, and not the family video games like the Wii or the ps3 etc. She has in total probably half a dozen handheld gaming sets. Every time something new comes out, she gets it. Which is not in itself a bad thing-- but she doesn't know how to play without an electronic device, which to me is sad. She doesn't know how to do imaginative play at all, and practically twitches when she isn't with technology. I think there are definitely kids who can get a DS or an ipod touch or what have you, and just play with it as an additional toy like any other, but apparently not my nieces! lol

I can't say I really know much about the actual Waldorf philosophies, lol, just that I like the type of toys that are generally associated with it. I love openended play and imagination, and just... I don't know- the kinds of things we used to enjoy as kids, rather than everything needed to have batteries and flashing lights, etc etc. Tenley is into music right now, so she'll crawl over and grab her blocks and start tapping them together, and then seeing what they sound like when she taps them on different things. I LOVE that!!


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## EuroMama (Dec 10, 2010)

.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *onetwoten*
> 
> We looked at the leapfrog iphone case for kids that I think you're talkng about. I don't think Tenley is ready for it yet either though. Maybe in the summer or next year. Right now she just bashes buttons, even on the games I've found, she's not quite at that stage yet. I'm not a huge fan of kids having many electronics this early on, but I think it depends on the kids too. My nieces all have super addictive personalities, so for instance my oldest niece is 8-- she has an actual laptop, one of those kids laptops you mentioned, an ipod touch with a program added on so that she can make phone calls, an ipod shuffle of some sort, a 3DS, and those are just the recent things she's had, and not the family video games like the Wii or the ps3 etc. She has in total probably half a dozen handheld gaming sets. Every time something new comes out, she gets it. Which is not in itself a bad thing-- but she doesn't know how to play without an electronic device, which to me is sad. She doesn't know how to do imaginative play at all, and practically twitches when she isn't with technology. I think there are definitely kids who can get a DS or an ipod touch or what have you, and just play with it as an additional toy like any other, but apparently not my nieces! lol
> 
> I can't say I really know much about the actual Waldorf philosophies, lol, just that I like the type of toys that are generally associated with it. I love openended play and imagination, and just... I don't know- the kinds of things we used to enjoy as kids, rather than everything needed to have batteries and flashing lights, etc etc. Tenley is into music right now, so she'll crawl over and grab her blocks and start tapping them together, and then seeing what they sound like when she taps them on different things. I LOVE that!!


Oh, that is really crappy about all those electronics. Everything in moderation!

Waldorf. Oye. Here is a gist of some of the things I take issue with. http://smrtlernins.com/2010/11/16/ask-a-smrt-homeschooler-about-the-waldorf-method/

It's just not how I would choose to educate, that's all. I'm sure it works for some. I don't think it's wrong or bad, persay, well -- maybe some of it -- but over all you just have to think about your own values and weigh them against the teaching method.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Before I get into something else and forget again, the test was negative. You all had probably guessed that since I hadn't been back on here freaking out but now you know.









Ethan and Kellen both have a DS. Dylan likes to mess with those, too. He doesn't damage them. He just doesn't know how to work them. I put some baby apps on my phone but the same thing. He always ends up pushing the "home" button and then gets upset because the game is gone. With the Mobigo, he constantly slides the thing closed and then freaks because he wants it open. He won't play with it with the keypad covered but can't seem to not close it.







He does bang on the laptop, which is why I don't want him messing with that. That's why I thought it would be nice for him to have his own. He's not interested in or fooled by baby ones, though, that don't do anything. Whenever we would try to give him a baby play phone instead of one of ours he would just throw it down. He knew it wasn't the same.

IDK about the whole addicted to technology thing. Some people just aren't wired for much imaginative play, I think. I guess I can understand that more because I am one of those people. I didn't have all of this technology growing up but I still wasn't much into complete make believe. I would rather read books or do math problems from a textbook or something like that. I didn't like board games. We did eventually get a commodore 6400 and then maybe the original Nintendo for the TV but I didn't like those, either. I don't like games, really. So I don't look at someone with a lot of electronic devices and think addiction. I just think that's what they like. I don't see how it's any different than having a house full of books.









The world is driven by electronic devices and it's only going to become moreso. I think we are doing our children a disservice if we don't allow them access to the technology that runs the world as early as possible. The sooner they can use it, the sooner they can learn it intuitively. I think that will set them up for many opportunities as adults. I also think it's pretty hypocritical for me to have my laptop and my smartphone and my Nook and maybe a tablet and tell my children they can't have those things or some other electronic device that they want. Since I don't want to give those things up because I happen to like having them and don't feel bad about it, I'm not going to block my children from them.

Dylan does that sort of things with sounds and objects. I was joking for the longest time that he liked to do table dances because he would get on the coffee table and stomp and dance around. Then he started climbing onto anything he could and doing the same thing. It finally dawned on me that he was listening to the different sounds the different things made. The coffee table makes a banging sound because it's a storage one. He also likes to take all the plastic storage containers out and sort and stack them and bang pots and pans and kitchen utensils. He loves music. Whenever he hears any music from anywhere he stops and starts swinging his head and dancing.

Oh, new words: Poop and Butt.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

I like the toys I see on in the Etsy Waldorf section. mostly wooden, wool, natural fibers, open ended, etc. I like the idea of open ended creative play (but honestly, that can be gotten from mismatched tupperware and wooden spoons and scarves, etc) I've not researched much else into it yet.

MW: don't bother getting a kid specific case, just get a heavy duty regular one. We have one by Griffin - the Survivor case - for the iPad. It cost nearly $90, but it's so worth it. It has probably saved the ipad from pure destruction (including Gabe cracking eggs on it) more than once. It's not pretty, it's purely utilitarian, but its incredibly functional and worth it.

We've had this arguement with some some of the older generation, about Leapsters/Vtech VS ipad/iphones/etc. My thing is that there are educational apps available for the ipad, iphone, kindle, all that, that are actually far better geared towards younger ages than anything Leapster or Vtech has come up with. And the device will truly grow with your kids. Yes, they are probably a higher up front cost, but it's a better quality device that everyone in the house can use. The older people are all like, why not do baby steps, or you are spoiling them by giving them such stuff, and I'm like, The device is really for anyone to use - it's not just for the kids. And why should I get them a crappier option, just because it's marginally cheaper and technically "geared" towards kids? You can set up all kind of parental controls on the other devices if you have concerns about that stuff. (Personally I just prefer to supervise at this age)

I think it's great for them to learn to become accustomed to technology at a young age. But like anything, moderation is not bad. I should moderate TV more . . .

Also, hooray for BFN?

Norah loves music too - she's already trying to sing <3


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Yes, hooray for BFN. I was not disappointed at all. Whew!

Thanks for the info on the covers. Any tablet I get would be for everyone to use, not just the kids. I like to have multiple options so that everyone can use something if they want.

I've been thinking about the addiction thing some more. I know we've discussed it a few times and I've stated my position. I wanted to share some examples that I have witnessed. When Ryan was younger (before unschooling), I had lots of restrictions of TV watching and later video games and computer use. The more I tried to control and restrict what and for how long he used any of those the more he wanted to use them. He would use all of his allotted time on whichever he was allowed at the time. He would sneak and hide, too. He likes to tell me now about how he got to watch all the movies and play all the games I wouldn't let him at his friends house. However, once I let go of all of that, after a transition period, he wasn't as attached to any of those. He did and does play his video games during his free time but if there's something else to do, he'll do that instead. He works. He gets enough sleep. He has friends and a serious girlfriend. The games don't run his life.

Another more recent example involves a friend's child. This friend has told me several times that her one child would do nothing but watch TV or play video or computer games if she allowed him so she restricts them. When he comes over here he can watch all the TV he wants. My friend knows that. I don't try to get the kids to do anything else. What I have seen is that this boy will sit and watch a little TV but once all the other kids get up and run outside to play, he follows soon after them. He did go through a time when he would sit in our house and watch TV when no other kids were in here. That lasted a few weeks. I thought it was funny. Ryan would be like, "Who is that random kid in our house when no one else is?"







But after a few weeks of that (and maybe realizing that I wasn't going to make him do something else) he started doing other things on his own. What's interesting to me is that my friend loves it when he stays up til all hours of the night reading a book but will not let him watch TV for an hour in the middle of the day.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

That is interesting. The TV is just on all day - it's not like the kids sit and veg the whole time it's on (if they did, I'd be far more concerned) and it's on kid-centered programs. Gabe has learned alot from them, so I'm not really knocking it. Once I get to a point where we have a bit more of a routine (I'd really like to start having a crafty/hands on activity every day - or at least most days - I'd like to turn it off while we do that stuff. I also want to start doing outside time more regularly. Today was gorgeous but far too windy.

I really liked the day care I worked at because they didn't allow ANY TV. the day cares I've seen that do allow it - the lights are dark, the kids just sit and stare. I don't think that's very healthy.

I'd like to think my kids are self moderating . . . I hope so.

IDK which Kindle you have on your list, but probably the closest thing to what we have on the iPad is madeby Otterbox for Kindle


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## lyterae (Jul 10, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> Lyterae, I'm so sorry about your loss. I don't think we are friends on FB but feel free to friend me if you would like. My real name is Lauri. I'm friends w/MW, Baby_Cakes, akind1 and JJ.


 Added you, I had to wait till I was on a computer. 

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> Onto other business.
> 
> ...


 Ben has suddenly decided he is "2", he fusses over everything now and throws tantrums whenever I tell him no (which leads to him hitting and throwing things around the room). I'm hoping it is being exaserbated by the the fact that he is getting molars in and not that this is our new normal.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> The photo session today...man, I should have taken a xanex or something beforehand! We arrived a few minutes early and the baby before her went long and there are no doors on the photo studio and Ava kept going to the door to watch which would distract the other baby. Ugh. So then we got about 10 mins in to the session and the photographer tried to take away the Elmo she had been playing with while we changed scenes. Oh boy. Screaming, tears, red face. Photo session over. Then since the baby in front of us had such a long session, that family had like 50 photos to go through and choose pics. So by the time I sat down with Ava's pics, it had been almost an hour since her pics were taken. Ava was toast. And the photo girl was trying to make cards and crap and I was just like "let me get my $7.99 coupon package and get the hell out of here!"...gah!
> 
> ...


 I'm sorry the photo session didn't go as well as hoped, we had pictures done in October and Ben was either crying the whole time or stone faced. I have no pictures of him smiling (and he has a beautiful smile!). I'm also sorry to hear that Ava may be weaning, I hope you are able to get her nursing again.

Ben is getting a Darth Vader potato head and a Waldorf doll (I finally finished the doll I started many years ago). His sister got him a big blue ball for Christmas.There are some small trucks and a dinosaur thrown in there as well I think.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> Oh! And I got awesome news today! Ava's sitter asked me if I would be her doula! I haven't attended a birth since before I got pregnant with Ava so I'm super excited. AND as fate would have it, I got an email tonight from my doula group that one of our local hospitals has set up a meeting for Feb for doulas to get a tour of the new hospital and have a roundtable discussion with the head CBE and some of the nurses. So awesome!


 Yay for birth and babies!


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## lyterae (Jul 10, 2005)

We are hurriedly trying to finish up our basement in time for Christmas as well as doing everything else. My parents are watching the kids tomorrow so we can have a lunch date and finish some shopping. I'm not looking forward to shopping, but some time with my hubby will be wonderful.

I spent the afternoon in the ER today with our good friend and neighbor after her husband was taken in by ambulance. He had a heart attack and unfortunately didn't make it.

This past month has really opened our eyes up to the fact that DD doesn't seem to respond appropriately in sad situations, she honestly has seemed quite pleased both times we have had to give her sad news. You can watch her working herself up to cry.... We aren't sure what to do but it seems very wrong. She is very very smart but doesn't seem to understand that these are sad things and that people are sad and she is not sensitive about any of it, she seems to enjoy the drama of it all. We're very much considering if we need to see a psychologist (psychiatrist?) or something.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

i'm so sorry for your friend.

your dd is only 6, right? i wouldn't expect a 6 yo to feel sad about sad news that doesn't really affect her. idk if a 6 yo would necessarily have the capacity to feel empathy. Some may but I wouldn't expect all of them to. Kellen is almost 5 and half and I don't think he gets stuff like. We had a neighborhood family who's mother died just a few weeks ago under suspicious circumstances, possibly suicide. Ethan and Kellen play with the kids. Ethan was very upset by and insisted that I take him to the viewing. We were only there a few minutes, spoke to the boy that Ethan is friends with very briefly, and Ethan asked to leave. He said it was so sad that he felt like he might have cried if he had stayed. We left. Kellen didn't seem to have any reaction to the news. Maybe your DD is trying to make herself cry because she's sensing that you all expect her to cry but she doesn't really feel it. It's ok for her to not feel sad and/or cry over something like that. Maybe it's not that she so much likes the drama as she's just watching and trying to figure what all the fuss is about.


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> Oh, that is really crappy about all those electronics. Everything in moderation!
> 
> ...


Oh dear. They lost me at the no technology thing, and then it just got worse and worse. So add me to the not-so-into-waldorf-unless-it's-just-toys camp. That article is right, it seems a little cultist and extreme!

I don't think kids should be kept away from technology (or learning in general) I just wish that more parents approached it from a more balanced viewpoint. Kids need more examples of how these are great, fun, amazing pieces of technology... but that they don't need to consume all of our free time either.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> I like the toys I see on in the Etsy Waldorf section. mostly wooden, wool, natural fibers, open ended, etc. I like the idea of open ended creative play (but honestly, that can be gotten from mismatched tupperware and wooden spoons and scarves, etc) I've not researched much else into it yet.
> 
> MW: don't bother getting a kid specific case, just get a heavy duty regular one. We have one by Griffin - the Survivor case - for the iPad. It cost nearly $90, but it's so worth it. It has probably saved the ipad from pure destruction (including Gabe cracking eggs on it) more than once. It's not pretty, it's purely utilitarian, but its incredibly functional and worth it.


Yeah, that was pretty much my thoughts on Waldorf. Now I'm a little bugged out! lol

I thought the kids case restricted the buttons? Not entirely sure. That's the only thing we were interested in. Tenley does the same thing as Dylan, where she presses the home button, then gets angry because she turned her game off!

We have an Otterbox for the ipod and for my phone. LOVE them. We've even dropped the ipod in he tub before, and when we took the case off, it was still completely dry inside (it's NOT rated as a waterproof case , so we were impressed).

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lyterae*
> 
> We are hurriedly trying to finish up our basement in time for Christmas as well as doing everything else. My parents are watching the kids tomorrow so we can have a lunch date and finish some shopping. I'm not looking forward to shopping, but some time with my hubby will be wonderful.
> 
> ...


 I'm sorry for your neighbor. That must be hard even to just sit there with her. That's a lot of emotions.

Is it that perhaps she's responding to the nervous tension? It's not uncommon for people to respond to heightened emotional settings with laughter or smiles, the same way that some people respond to yelling bursting out in tears. It's an inappropriate emotional response, but it's because your brain just can't compute what it's supposed to be feeling under the circumstances, and pretty much just can't handle the stress. I remember a particularly embarassing experience where I was at summer Bible camp, and there was a drama enactment going on about how Judas felt when betraying Jesus, and everyone around me was bawling their eyes out, but this other girl and I both locked eyes and burst into laughter. Nothing about it was funny. We didn't think it was funny or anything-- our brains just couldn't process the heightened emotion and so they did something they did know how to do to release tension- laugh.

If she's not showing other worrying behaviors (meanness to others or animals, acting out disturbing things through play, an extreme interest in dark things etc), then I would probably just chalk it up to a combination of not knowing how to display/process the emotions, or maybe as MW said, just not old enough to really understand empathy yet. It could be either or both.

So... I didn't pump at work today. I normally nurse at about 130pm, and then I don't pump until around 9, and I'm ok. I feel a little full, but not at all sore or engorged. So... I didn't pump tonight. I just figured I'd pump when I got home. OMG!! I was ok until like 10m maybe 1030, and then all of a sudden I was like ahhhhhhh!! And I practically counted the minutes until I would be at home and could pump. I ended up getting 8oz, and then I stopped because one bottle was full and I'm too lazy to go grab another one and switch them over. So, apparenlty no skipping pumping at work anymore in favor of coming home early!


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

On one hand, your DD reaction could be completely normal. But if it concerns you (you have the mama instincts) it wouldn't hurt to talk to a children or family psychiatrist.

I haven't looked much at the kids cases - we are just as clumsy as the kids, and I don't want to keep having to switch between kid and grown up cases. But that's just us.

We have 2 birthday parties to go to today. The first will be your typical sugar fest, but not slot of kids. The second one will have more kids, but the family is super crunchy and gluten free. Both should be interesting.


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

That's true. I didn't think about having to switch back and forth. I wouldn't want to do that ash case is very snug in my phone and would probably loosen if I took it on and off.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> On one hand, your DD reaction could be completely normal. But if it concerns you (you have the mama instincts) it wouldn't hurt to talk to a children or family psychiatrist.


If all it is is the parents talking to an "expert", it may not hurt. However, taking a child to see a counselor of any sort with the presumption or concern that there might be something wrong with the child could hurt the child. That can make the child feel like something is wrong with her when there isn't really anything wrong at all. And, yeah, I know a lot of people say they took their child to a counselor and it didn't bother the child, but is that really true? The child may not be able to express how it bothered her or may not even understand but just have an off feeling about it all. Any negative feelings that the child got about herself because of that may not become apparent until years later. I do think that counseling is important when needed but I think parents need to be very careful about taking their children to a counselor because they perceive a possible problem with the child.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *onetwoten*
> 
> Oh dear. They lost me at the no technology thing, and then it just got worse and worse. So add me to the not-so-into-waldorf-unless-it's-just-toys camp. That article is right, it seems a little cultist and extreme! ... Yeah, that was pretty much my thoughts on Waldorf. Now I'm a little bugged out! lol










It is kind of creepy, isn't it?

I thought the kids case restricted the buttons? Not entirely sure. That's the only thing we were interested in. Tenley does the same thing as Dylan, where she presses the home button, then gets angry because she turned her game off!

We have an Otterbox for the ipod and for my phone. LOVE them. We've even dropped the ipod in he tub before, and when we took the case off, it was still completely dry inside (it's NOT rated as a waterproof case , so we were impressed).








I'm sorry for your neighbor. That must be hard even to just sit there with her. That's a lot of emotions. 
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *onetwoten*
> 
> Is it that perhaps she's responding to the nervous tension? It's not uncommon for people to respond to heightened emotional settings with laughter or smiles, the same way that some people respond to yelling bursting out in tears. It's an inappropriate emotional response, but it's because your brain just can't compute what it's supposed to be feeling under the circumstances, and pretty much just can't handle the stress. I remember a particularly embarassing experience where I was at summer Bible camp, and there was a drama enactment going on about how Judas felt when betraying Jesus, and everyone around me was bawling their eyes out, but this other girl and I both locked eyes and burst into laughter. Nothing about it was funny. We didn't think it was funny or anything-- our brains just couldn't process the heightened emotion and so they did something they did know how to do to release tension- laugh.


I used to laugh uncontrollably at inappropriate times because I wasn't comfortable expressing any kind of emotion that I thought signaled weakness. Crying is one of those emotions. I still have a very hard time crying in front of anyone.

I was reading a little on empathy yesterday and it seems that the consensus is that it is a learned skill rather than an inherent emotion. So, especially with that, I would expect that different people would learn it at different times and some not at all if they're not really exposed to it and have it modeled appropriately.

It can be helpful to understand the difference between sympathy and empathy. Sympathy is when you feel the same way as the other person. Empathy is when you understand the feelings of the other person but you don't necessarily feel the same yourself. So, it is possible that she is empathetic but not sympathetic but she may think there's an expectation that she express sympathy (although I'm sure she couldn't put it into words like that).


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> I was reading a little on empathy yesterday and it seems that the consensus is that it is a learned skill rather than an inherent emotion. So, especially with that, I would expect that different people would learn it at different times and some not at all if they're not really exposed to it and have it modeled appropriately.
> It can be helpful to understand the difference between sympathy and empathy. Sympathy is when you feel the same way as the other person. Empathy is when you understand the feelings of the other person but you don't necessarily feel the same yourself. So, it is possible that she is empathetic but not sympathetic but she may think there's an expectation that she express sympathy (although I'm sure she couldn't put it into words like that).


I struggle to understand why Nora has no sympathy OR empathy. It is really hard at times. I'm sick, so I say something like, "Nora please don't climb on me, I'm sick." "Well, I'm not." and she continues to climb. I'll say, "Nora, you can't scream like that in finn's face. It scares him and hurts his feelings," "Well it doesn't scare me!" And so on. I just feel like she's callous. I read that it is normal to a degree but sometimes, man. I just can't get my head around how little she cares about anyone else!

I know a bunch of you don't leave your kids with others but yesterday we dropped the kids off with grandma/grandpa and uncles. Well. We got back and apparently Nora was misbehaving a bit. MIL said she was walking on the window seat and taking down decorations. When MIL asked her to please put them back up, she got sassy and said no you! and then hit her uncle in the face. She said she "threatened" a time out.

Part of me feels like since we don't do time out, this doesn't go along with my parenting philosophy but another part of me feels like it's ok for Gma and Gpa's house to have different discipline.

I feel like she was seriously testing their authority. She shouldn't have hit. It's something I'm really struggling with and trying to use GD to solve (time ins, etc, but I'm getting nowhere). I'm not sure what else to do. I have a good friend who uses time out solely for hitting. Sigh. Ideas?


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Carrie ~ A few things come to mind with that. First, she is too young to fully understand empathy and be able to express it every time. It's a learning process and takes a long time. Shoot, most adults I know don't express empathy very well. My kids behave similarly. They don't say things like they aren't sick or scared or whatever but they aren't very good at remembering when I'm sick and so not bothering me. Ethan constantly jumps on Kellen to play fight or wrestle and then has a fit when Kellen hits or kicks him. I've explained to Ethan many times that he has to expect that kind of reaction if he jumps on someone. It's scary and jolting and most people will automatically lash out. I've asked him how he would feel if Ryan constantly jumped on him and grabbed him like that. He hates it when Ryan does that to him but doesn't seem to get how it's the same for Kellen.

I think the best thing to do is model empathic behavior in front of her. So, when she screams in Finn's face and he's visibly upset, comfort Finn and talk out loud to him about how that looked like it scared him and that's not fun and he didn't seem to like it. Focus on Finn to Finn about how he feels rather than telling Nora what she did wrong. KWIM? Take care of someone who is sick in front of her so she sees what is nice and appropriate. Maybe give her things she can do to help you when you are sick. If she wants to jump on your back when you aren't feeling well, maybe she'd accept rubbing your back. Kellen likes to rub my back and Ethan likes to brush my hair.

The last thing that comes to mind is to show her empathy every chance you get. I absolutely hate it when I see a small child get hurt and is crying and the parent just tells the child that he is all right and to get up and brush it off. The child may not need to go to the ER but he is obviously not all right or he wouldn't be crying. So, instead of telling the child that he's all right, express your understanding of their hurt, kiss it, hug the child, comfort him. People seem to think that doing that will cause the child to cry over everything and by a "cry baby". My experience has been the opposite. The more responsive I am to their feelings the faster they get over being hurt and the less often they cry over the smallest bumps.

I think if a child hits once, that can be dealt with quickly, once. Ideally, the person who got hit would express his pain in a reasonable way and make it clear that he doesn't want to be the child if she's going to hit. If the child continually hits, then I think it's appropriate to remove the child from the situation. If the child hits, the child can't be around other people. That's not quite the same as a time out. With a time out, you have a preset time limit, usually one minute for each year the child is old, during which the child has to stay in a specific place. I doubt that Nora would learn much about her behavior by having to sit somewhere by herself for 4 minutes. It's much better for an adult to gently remove her from the situation and explain that you will not allow her to hurt other people. If that means she can't be around other people, than that is how it will be.

Why did she lash out like that? Was she angry or scared? Was everyone ganging up on her trying to get her to stop whatever she was doing or to fix what she had done? If she was angry, talking to her about and showing her other ways to express her anger are important. But it won't do any good if the other adults don't allow her to express her anger in a healthy way. If she was scared, that needs to be addressed with the other adults. They need to understand what they did that scared her and how they can do things differently in the future.

It probably would have gone a long way if someone had helped her put the decorations back. I don't think that I'd expect a 4 year old to know how to do that quite right. Maybe she didn't know exactly where the decorations were supposed to go and how. Maybe she needed more guidance. Grandma could have looked at each decoration with Nora and then shown her where and/or how to put it back.

I think that other people have the right to have different rules in their homes but I don't think they have the right to use different, especially harsher, discipline tactics than the parent does. Honestly, if the grandparents can't respect the way you discipline and do things your way with your children, then they probably shouldn't be watching the children, at least not for extended periods. Yeah, that can make things a little harder for the parents but it's only for a short time. Pretty soon the child will be old enough to behave differently and before you know the child will be old enough to be left alone.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

I'm going to try to focus more on Finn when he gets hit or shoved, you're right about that. I'm too quick to say, "Nora, please, keep your hands to yourself!" instead of attending to Finn. I'll give that a lot more effort.

I always ALWAYS tend to their boo boos and never brush them off. I know what you mean. I see it too. Get up you're fine, or something like that. It's a real pain that needs attention, and you're right, they always get over it quickly with a little TLC.

I bet you she was totally in defense mode. I think her uncle tried to pick her up and that was when she hit.

I just worry they think she is "walking all over us" and needs stronger discipline. I feel like I'm just waiting for them to actually say it out loud.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> Annie: yay on the doula stuff! are you part of a hospital doula program, or do local doulas have connections with the hospital? I don't know that our local hospital would be so on top of the doula things. They do have a free doula program, but I'm not a huge fan. You don't mee tthe doula until you're at the hospital, and I want to meet my doula and make sure she works with us before seeing me in the midst of labor.


We don't have any hospital doula programs here. We have a loose group of doulas that meet once a month and help each other network. I'm usually never able to attend the meetings though because I work at night. I keep up with the goings on through the google group that they created. When I was pregnant with Ava, I took the hospital-sanctioned CBE class. I was really hesitant to take it and thought I would spend the whole time biting my tongue but I was pleasantly surprised by our teacher. Her first birth was a no-pain meds birth in a birthing center and her second birth was a water birth in Guatemala. So I invited her to come to our monthly Birth Circle meeting and she got connected to our doula group through there because a lot of our doulas attend the Birth Circle meetings. She attends the monthly doula meetings now and asks as a sort of conduit between the doulas and the hospital. She facilitated this meeting. I agree that it's helpful to meet the doula beforehand. When I was pregnant with Ava, I actually decided to not have a doula because the only doula that I was comfortable with was pregnant also so she wouldn't be available to attend my birth. Also, I felt comfortable with my DH's ability to act as my labor support. If I get pregnant again, I may seek out Megan if she's not pregnant herself!


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Baby_Cakes, do you have sense for what her underlying motivation is when doesn't back off? For instance, give you some space or when she screams in Finn's face? What is she trying to accomplish? Most kids are not malicious for the sake of just harming others, they are doing things like that for a reason. Is it for attention? Is it worth it to her to get negative attention from you? I really recommend Kids, Parents and Power Struggles. It really drives home the idea that for the most part, our kids don't wake up every morning with the intent to find things to piss us off. They have motivation behind their actions, sure, but for the most part, those motivations are to get their needs met. So what does Nora NEED when she does that stuff?


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Oh and a lot of times, we as grownups don't understand how literal kids are and therefore how our language affects them differently. Is it possible that she was pissed at being "left behind" at her grandparents yesterday? From what you describe of her behavior, it sounds like she was mad. Did she hear you describe the need to leave her and Finn there so you guys could get stuff done? Not trying to put this on you but just a reminder that sometimes, our choice of words to other grownups, however appropriate, can be misinterpreted by these little brains. That book, Kids Parents and Power Struggles, really opened my eyes to how literal they are, especially at that age.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Yes, usually he is coming into her space. So she's defending her territory which is fine. I have told her to ask him to leave nicely, or call for help, but don't use hands or yell. It's not sinking in.

She did ask for them to babysit, and told me she wanted us to drop her off, and once we worked out the details with them she was really excited to go. She wouldn't even say goodbye to us b/c she was already off playing. So...maybe there was part of her at that moment that wished I was there to help, b/c she doesn't have the capacity to explain "Hey could you help me put these up?" Or "I don't want you picking me up right now, let me get down myself" that sort of thing.

I'll look into that book. I don't think she's doing it to piss me off, but I think my message isn't getting across. Probably bc I lose my temper too often, and I'm not modeling not yelling. But, that is a work in progress.

Thanks guys for hashing it out with me. I know I'm not doing this stuff 100% right, and I love having friends like you whom I trust to offer good friendly advice.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

I'm blowing up the thread this afternoon.

Kid specific ipod/ipad cases. My understanding is that they cover the home button. Ava wants to play on the ipod all the time but she hits the home key. I looked at getting her one of those cases but she's actually getting better at understanding that her action of hitting the home key makes Sid or Chica go away so she hasn't been doing it as much. She still does it on my nook but there's no kid specific case for that as best I can tell.

You guys, I need help reframing some of DH's actions. He does this every Christmas so I don't know why I'm shocked yet again. Christmas Eve, when the big kids are home, should be spent doing stuff with the kids IMO. To me, it seems like he always finds "work" to do most of that day so he's not around. I know he's not a kid person so spending the day doing kid stuff is not his idea of fun but I want to say too bad so sad. Put your big boy pants on and deal with it. It's Christmas Fricking Eve. And they are your kids. I need him to run some errands for me tomorrow morning and then I need him to come straight home so that he can be with the kids and help them make cookies for Santa and just hang out with them. He said he would try but he needs to get work done. O.K. I know it's a Monday but it's Christmas Eve. There's no work going on. I view it as just an excuse to get out of the house, away from the craziness and have quiet time. Which is BS to me. I'm trying to be thankful that I have a hard-working partner but when I know how little work is actually going to happen, I have a hard time with that.

Ava is becoming such a toddler these days! Yesterday evening when I got back from running errands, she was flipping out because she was tired, hungry and I had been gone for 3 hours. I needed to put away the groceries so I asked her to help me. She handed me all the groceries one by one, put the bags in the cabinet where I keep them, shut the pantry door and shut the cabinet under the sink. All with just verbal directions. It's so amazing how they learn. She helps me when I need to load the dishwasher too. I have to keep her away until I'm ready to add the soap but I call her in when it's time for that. She opens the kitchen sink cabinet and points to the dishwasher soap, waits while I fill the container, then she shuts it and shuts the door. I push the buttons. Oh and she helps me with laundry too. I love that girl!


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Mobile so I am sure I missed a lot.
Carrie: in regards to different discipline: I am not cool with yelling or hitting the kids. But a time out? Hmmm. I might let them know that its not a technique you use at home, so it's likely to be both ineffective and unfamiliar to her. Also when you are over there try to model what you do DO for discipline, so they have N idea of what she's accustomed to and what works for her.
I've had discussions with about everyone we know about why we don't hit Gabe. In all honesty, we've tried it, it doesn't work, and it makes his aggression worse.
More later when I'm at a computer.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> Baby_Cakes, do you have sense for what her underlying motivation is when doesn't back off? For instance, give you some space or when she screams in Finn's face? What is she trying to accomplish? Most kids are not malicious for the sake of just harming others, they are doing things like that for a reason. Is it for attention? Is it worth it to her to get negative attention from you? I really recommend Kids, Parents and Power Struggles. It really drives home the idea that for the most part, our kids don't wake up every morning with the intent to find things to piss us off. They have motivation behind their actions, sure, but for the most part, those motivations are to get their needs met. So what does Nora NEED when she does that stuff?












No one is ever 100% perfect with any of this so don't beat yourself up for that. We all screw up sometimes. If she's screaming at Finn because he gets in her space, the best thing to do is try to steer him away before he bothers her. It's hard to do all the time, I know. I'm constantly trying to get Dylan and Kellen to leave Ethan alone. And now Kellen is starting to get annoyed with Dylan messing with him so I have to run interference with them as well.

After the fact, though, I would empathize with both of them. Give Finn a hug or whatever and make some statement about how the screaming looked like it scared him and hurt his ears. Then say something to Nora about her being upset that Finn got in her space or tried to take whatever she was using or whatever it may be that she screamed at him about.

We finally got the tree up. Ryan and Trish put presents out even though I asked them not to. I told Ryan that I was not going to spend all of my time trying to keep Dylan away from them. I won't just sit back and let him tear them open but I'm not going to constantly hover around the tree, either.

My back is killing me! I must have a pinched nerve somewhere and it's aggravating my sciatica. I have a constant ache in both buttocks and down both legs. Whenever I stand for a bit and then take weight off of one leg that leg hurts so bad I almost cry. There's nothing I can do except be completely still and wait for it to subside. I'm going to have to go to a chiropractor asap regardless of the cost. I can barely function.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Merry Christmas sweet friends!


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Merry christmas you guys!









MW hope your back is feeling better!

Sending us all patience and good vibes as we deal with our hyper kids and our extended families!


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

Merry Christmas!! I miss you guys during holidays like these when it's all high stress and I miss the people who actually... "get" me. Case in point... massively long copy and paste post from my Simple Living group...

Quote:


> Maaaassssively long vent ahead...
> 
> We got some great gifts this year (A little people Farm, A plasma car, some play food, melissa and doug stacking toys, a leapfrog picnic basket we asked for). But we also got a lot of money spent on toys that we're honestly hesitating to even take out of the box... Board books (we have literally 150 books already, plus a steady influx of hand me downs from the cousins), stuffed animals (whaaaa?!), puzzles (again, we have almost 2 dozen, ad she's not even at puzzle age yet...).
> 
> ...


So... yeah.

That said, she did get some really great things. She got a Little People Barn, a Mega Blocks set (Meh, but she doesn't have anything like it at least, and it doesn't sing... so you know, bonus points!), and a cabbage patch doll, and the Leapfrog sharing picnic basket we asked for (The --only-- electronic item we asked for, and made it clear that it was only that one specifically we wanted). Also got a doll stroller and bathtub set. Got a plasma ride on car, and a ton of play food. She got a stocking full of stuff, mostly junk- things like puzzles that are kindergarden difficulty, and small stuffed animals, though there were a few things like hair elastics, and this light up alien that she likes.

We plan on making her kitchen, but obviously not done yet- so from us she got Ikea pots and pans, Ikea bowls and cups. 4 sunbaby diapers and a Peachy Baby diaper. A new pail liner. Ummm I think that might be it. Kind of sad, but we were waiting to see what she got from everyone else.

And then... we did Rob's side today. It was so disappointing. Some really thoughtful gifts, but mostly just... shake your head type stuff.

From the aunt that babysits her, that knows most about our parenting style and the type of toys we want, we got this: Leapfrog Lily. Not sure what on earth made her think we would want a $55 talking doll... We also got a read to me Night Before Christmas book (this is good! They did goodnight moon for her last year, and she loooooves it!), and more play food. Though it's plastic, and Ash always talks about how much she LOVES the melissa and doug wooden food, so I'm not reallllly sure why she wouldn't have gotten that, but you know, at least it's play food! Then the other aunt that was there got her My Snuggly Pal Violet, which you know... since Tenley rarely sleeps in her crib, is really useful. (It lights up like a nightlight, and plays music, and then has a timer so it turns off after 20 minutes, and then it also counts and sings songs with them, and "introduces them to words like eyes ears mouth nose"). puppets (fantastic!! those were on the list), a classic hardcover Wizard of Oz book (meh, but it's a collection thing, she got some last year too). And then from Rob's parents... She got The Peek a Shoe talking octopus, which ummm well wtf? It makes both Rob and I cringe. At least it's only $30, I initially assumed it was closer to $50. But I mean... $30 could have bought her playsilks!! And then she also got a Melissa and Doug stacker, which is good. And then she got a puzzle, which they KNOW she has soooo many, and also that she doesn't play with them. And then they got her 4 or 5 normal sized board books. Which as I said in the post, aren't bad per se, except that they also know that we have so many that half of them are already packed away because they don't fit on her reading shelf. And for instance even today, we were told by my SIL that they have another large bag of books to come over to our house too. And then she also got a set of tiny miny board books that are just... I don't know, useless really. She's just going to rip them apart. They're totally one of those gifts that she just happened to be walking by them, and decided to add them to her cart. Hmmm what else? Oh, and the 3 foot tall teddy bear. Joy.

Gah. I just... I know everyone have these gifts with so much love and the best of intentions. It's just like... didn't you listen to anything we said? Oh the things I could have bought with the $150 or so from useless unwanted gifts we received.

We have one aunt and uncle that we haven't received gifts from yet (they're on a trip right now), and I don't anticipate those going so well last year. She didn't buy much 'off the list' last year, and instead bought several things she -thought- we needed instead.

I think I'm a little bitter too because I didn't do great in the gift department either. my mom bought all off my list, but as usual, spent like half on me what she did on my siblings. For instance my brother for a $350 camera. I got Kitchenaid mixing bowls, measuring cups, salad spinner, glass measuring cups (ok that wans't on my list), and then chocolate. If she bought them full price (which when I sent her the list, they were all on sale for 50% off for the next two weeks), then that's still like $80. And I'm very thankful she stuck to the list, but it stings when -every- year I end up getting wayyyy less in gift value than my siblings.

And from my father I got a blow dryer. This -was- on my list, and I do want it, and I do like it. But... that's all I got. I told him to talk to my sister about what features to look for that would make a good one. He obviously didn't. It's still better than the one I had, which is 9 years old, but the new one is a $30 Conair. Sigh. My brother got a $100 external hard drive.

Anyways... Tenley is up, gotta go!


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

Ok... Fresh post, fresh outlook!

The positive-- I just had three meals I didn't have to cook for or clean up after. And Tenley ate lots at all of them!

Tenley did SO fantastic, at all of these gatherings, even at my father's house, which as I said, is SO not baby-friendly. She had one meltdown yesterday, because she was 2 hours postnap, but still hadn't fallen asleep, so I had to basically swaddle her with my arms until she just relaxed and let the sleep come. She slept for 2 hours, and only woke up because we went in and woke her up for dinner (it was 6pm!), and she pushed us away and kept trying to snuggle back into the blankets. Other than htat-- no meltdowns, so stealing toys, she squealed and clapped appropriately when opening presents. She was patient, she was loving, she let her family members play with her. She did great even with bedtimes being out of whack, and fell asleep each night within 2 minute of getting into the car-- AND allowed us to transfer her into the house without waking up, ALL THREE TIMES! This -never- happens.

Also-- I haven't said anything for fear of jinxing it, but for the past week or so, most nights she's done s 5-6 hour stretch at the beginning of the night, from around 12-6 or 10-3 type thing. Again, hasn't done that in a regular pattern (ie more than one night in a row), ummm ever? She's still waking from 6-8 every 30 minutes or so, but getting that first stretch in is huge! She fell asleep tonight just after 8, and I just went in and nursed her now at like 1030, and she was totally out within maybe a minute of me sitting down in the rocker. So there's a chance that she'll sleep now until 3 or so in her bed, and then come in with us for the rest of the night obviously.

Oh, which reminds me-- because she went into her bed last night when we got home, and not into our bed, it meant that when she slept from 10-3pm, I had to fall asleep alone! (well with DH, but without her), That's gotten to be SO weird!! She's almost always in our bed now by the time I fall asleep.

ok see jinxed it. She's up again and shrieking and apparently I'm a bad mom for wanting 5 minutes to finish my post before I nurse her again, so I'll fnish tomorrow!


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Board books: if they are different than ones she had, can you cycle some of the less-loved ones out of your collection?

Electronic stuff you don't want: take it back to places that don't care about receipts. When family comes over and asks, you can just say you have put such and such up for later. You have small space and can't have all her toys out at once. (If you don't feel like being honest)

Age-inappropriate puzzles. Either sell, donate, or put up for later.

Do either of your siblilngs have kids? I ask, because it's possible that your parents' budget for gifts is like X dollars per kid, and they include you, DH (Do they get him anything?) and Tenley in that budget. Not really X for you, X for brother, X for sister, than a separate budget for grandbaby. I use the word "budget" loosely. It's Christmas. Most people don't really "budget"

All that said, it is frustrating when people don't hear what you want. Thankfully, MIL pummelled into her relatives that we do NOT need more stuff. With kids as close in age as ours, all toys are shared anyway - they got $$ and books. MIL gave us money to go shopping, so we had control over what she bought the kids. DH's grandma (who has the most HORRENDOUS taste in toys) got a baby doll and a couple trucks for the kids, and also $$. I say bad taste, because the toys she has at her house are two plastic, crazy loud, obnoxious guitars. One is branded by the wiggles, the other is generic. And she asked if we want to take them home. HECK NO. They stay here.

My parents got the kids decent stuff. It's plastic. Some of it makes noise. But all of it stays with them, so I don't care as much, LOL. (they'll see it almost every day, but it won't be cluttering up our space, and they get to buy batteries!)

OH - that Violet snuggly thing - Gabe has the boy version and LOVED it. (it got lost in a move) - it's not very annoying, and has a timer. He loved snuggling with it, and it DID make his crib time easier. For the brief time he was in a crib at all (10-19 months, off and on) I don't know if Tenley will love it as much, but you just never know.

Gabe likes Norah's dolls she got for Christmas as much, if not more, than she does. I need to buy another doll stroller. Norah wants to ride in it. LOL.

Thankfully, other than the holiday being rushed, we had little family drama. My sister and her DH came down for Christmas Eve dinner and presents. They didn't get here until about 8 pm, which means we were eating insanely late, Norah was soooo tired, present opening after - I think they were up until nearly 11. Sis and her DH left by 10 Christmas Day, shortly after we left to do Christmas with the ILs. Short visit.

In other news: 30 weeks today! single digit countdown starts next week! woot! I'm gassy and feel huge, but you know, it's all good. In the home stretch, and I know it won't last forever, and I'll have a new nursling at the breast in just a couple months. I can't believe how much I miss it. I think it's partly bc I have so many friends now nursing babies and toddlers, and I want to join in! oh well.

Hope everyone had a merry, merry Christmas and can enjoy the last week of the year.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Oh JJ! I so feel for you, especially the part about how other ppl seem to act like we are depriving our kids by not getting them the flashy stuff. A lot of it I've let go (and not saying you should, just offering perspective) b/c by NOT allowing the kids to play or see flashy stuff, they actually started to want it. The few toys we have (that were gifts) that aren't open ended and use batteries, etc, often get tossed aside after a short while. OR they end up LOVING them when I thought it was the dumbest thing ever. And don't get me started on the Princess thing. I wasn't going to even let Nora know princesses exist but I'm too much into Disney myself, and she LOVES those princesses! I also just had to spin it so it was more acceptable to my values. If you ask her what a princess is she'll say they are fair and kind.

I'm of the belief that once a gift is given it's yours to do whatever with. Walmart takes returns w/o receipts, just saying.









And also - tough lesson to learn for me at least - sometimes our kids surprise us and do really well with non-open ended play. Some of the stuff is really quite neat. And I bet Kat is right that b/c they got stuff for Ten they spent less on you (which is silly, but just is). At least you got stuff you can use!

From us Nora got a ton of art supplies. I could tell she was almost bummed opening them b/c to her it's "normal stuff" that wasn't too exciting. But, I know when the allure of the new stuff wears off, and she's got tons of paper and new colored pencils and crayons and markers -- that's where she's going to gravitate.

Finn ended up with a lot of Toy Story themed stuff and some Cars. He's happy as a clam! But his fave toy is what I chose, the Learning Resources Jungle Animals. He keeps carrying them around roaring and stomping!

Chris actually surprised me with a new cookbook! I wasn't expecting it. I thought he got me Funk Rock and cloth pads (which he did) but he also got me 2 cookbooks! I can't wait to pore thru them and make new things!! Exciting!

My MIL got me wine pants. She knows me so well! AND I got a TON of wine and a giftcard for a liquor store AND a Limoncello gift set! Oh and this cool thing! A Corkcicle!

Kat - YAYY for 30 weeks! We need a new belly pic! I can't believe baby will be here in just under 3 months or so! I feel like you JUST peed on that stick. And I'm happy too b/c it puts the rest of winter into perspective -- not that much longer until spring!

oops - baby calling, bbl!!!


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Princesses . . . ugh. I am cool with the idea that princesses exist - they do - But not so much the disney version. My kids haven't even seen a disney princess movie. (not purposefully avoiding it, but since my first was a boy . . . it just hasn't seemed necessary) Norah has a couple outfits that say "snow princess" or just "princess" on it, and that's ok. Not ideal, but I mean, who wouldn't want to fantasize about being a princess? Nothing wrong with pretend play - the disney princesses . . . I loved them as a kid, but I really don't like how it's become an obsession for so many moms/daughters that I know. EVERYTHING is princess. I'm sure there must be other intrests, but all you see on clothes and toys, and everything is princess-themed that is just out of hand. IMHO.

I'm mostly anti-character anyway. With a few exceptions. I like Winnie the Pooh. He's classic. Gabe has a few things that are character (he loves Peppa Pig and now has a couple toys that are Peppa and some DVDs) some hand-me down superman, batman, and spiderman things (comic book characters are also classic, I think) . . . a few Cars things. But really, he just knows they are cars, not characters, same thing with Thomas the Train things. It just bothers me that so much of stuff has to have a liscenced character on it - it's hard to find something without. oh well. First world problems, eh?

Carrie: glad you got things you wanted! and some surprises! My mom got me this retro kitchen stool that I've mentioned that I wanted. My Grandma had one, and it was always my "helper" stool, and my seat at her table (it's a red vinyl seat/step stool) and my parents got us a blu ray player. We didn't have a DVD player at all hoooked up at all, so that was nice. DH got me some gift cards. and a bunch of butter mints from cracker barrel. They are my Christmas crack. LOL.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Maybe it's b/c I really love WDW and am really into Disney stuff myself, but I LOVE the dresses. The other stuff not so much -- like you're saying I try to avoid all the gratuitous princess marketing, b/c they plaster them on EVERYTHING. But I love the dress up dresses, and I don't mind a few coloring books to give her some thing to play with with characters she knows and likes. In moderation it's actually really fun to see her imagination take off with it. And honestly she got the bow and arrow from Brave and she hasn't put it down all day. If she's into archery now, cool, you know? It intro'd her to something I never would have though of! (and, cuteness factor, she calls it a "shoot and arrow"!)

Cars and Toy Story are the same. It's like everything for boys has those characters on it, and to get away from it you have to go with dinosaurs or robots, etc. But again, since I love WDW and we do watch those movies, I have little problem with it on a few things (just not EVERYTHING).

If it's only part of their play it's cool with me.

I need to get this house clean!! LOL!


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Cars and Toy Story don't bother me too much, because, at the end of the day, it's cars and cool retro looking toys (Gabe got Rex the dinosaur for Christmas. To him, it's just the best approximation of George's dinosaur from Peppa Pig, LOL - he's seen Toy Story, but hasn't made the connection) I don't even mind the stories so much - I loved Ariel growing up - it's just the overwhelming-ness of all things Princess. -and honestly, kind of the entitlement attitude that goes along with "being a princess/Diva" that bothers me the most. The rest of it - really, whatever - all in moderation.

Question: we want to do WDW in a couple years when Gabe is 5 or 6. DH hasn't been since he was a teenager, and I haven't ever been. Do you think it's still as fun/magical if your kids don't know the characters all that well? Just curious.

And yes: "shoot and arrow" is adorable!

Gabe has finally started saying "love you!" He even told Norah last night "love you baby" - too sweet!

Bump pic:


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

You look great!!! yayyy!!!

I think WDW would be amazingly fun even w/o the character tie in. Some things might not be as exciting but theres still so much to see and do that is just plain fun. Nora has always been to scared of the characters to do any meet and greets, so that isn't necessary.

I think ideally we are going to try to wait for Finn to be 5 or so before we go again. It's going to be HARD!! I want to go now. LOL.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

JJ all those pics you are tagged in on FB are AMAZING. I need a photo shoot like that with my family! I'm so envious! Those are magazine worthy!


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

Thanks ladies. I'm feeling calmer this morning. Still disappointed, but trying to look on the bright side. Overall we had good family time, and Tenley did well, so I'm focusing on that.

Totally random, but she is seeming SO big lately. I put her down in the crib last night, and was floored at how big and long her body looked! Like such a child!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> Board books: if they are different than ones she had, can you cycle some of the less-loved ones out of your collection?
> 
> ...


Board books we have been picking and choosing, and finding the ones we enjoy the most, putting some up for storage and donating the rest. It's just disappointing to know that that's money she could have spent on something else that wouldn't require us to throw out an existing book we already have/enjoy, kwim? It would be different if these were from relatives who didn't know how many books we had, but she does know, so it's kind of like ummmm? Really?

We were talking about the electronics this morning, and I think we're going to do like you said and return them for store credit at toys r us. We'll keep the bilingual doll, but take back the peek a shoe octopus and the snuggly pal. The books and stuffies and puzzles and things are no biggie, we'll keep those and then rehome them in a few months. But I just can't bring myself to open the boxes on the leapfrog stuff knowing I could take it back today and get $35 towards other toys, or open them and then get like $5 in a few months.

My siblings don't have kids yet, so that would in theory make sense for my mom and dad-- except that this pattern of them spending substantially less on me than on my other siblings, has been going on for close to ten years. Some years it's been as bad as my siblings getting like $250 worth of stuff, and me opening $60 worth of stuff that wasn't even on my list and doesn't suit me at all. I've almost gotten used to it. So yeah-- this year was a bonus that at least it was all stuff I wanted!

DH's siblings, two of the three have kids, AND his parents don't do gifts for us either. But with them it was a how much spent issue, just more... lack of attention to what was on our list.

30 weeks is crazy! At first it seemed like your pregnancy was going so slow, and now it seems to have sped up (for me anyways! lol) Wathcing vicariously is hard! haha I'm glad your kids got some good toys, and even better if you can get away with leaving the lesser fantastic stuff at the grandparents space!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> Oh JJ! I so feel for you, especially the part about how other ppl seem to act like we are depriving our kids by not getting them the flashy stuff. A lot of it I've let go (and not saying you should, just offering perspective) b/c by NOT allowing the kids to play or see flashy stuff, they actually started to want it. The few toys we have (that were gifts) that aren't open ended and use batteries, etc, often get tossed aside after a short while. OR they end up LOVING them when I thought it was the dumbest thing ever. And don't get me started on the Princess thing. I wasn't going to even let Nora know princesses exist but I'm too much into Disney myself, and she LOVES those princesses! I also just had to spin it so it was more acceptable to my values. If you ask her what a princess is she'll say they are fair and kind.
> 
> ...


No I totally get it. And I mean we did get plastic toys, and things that make some noise-- she LOVES her Little People house and farm, and that's something I wasn't excited about, but I knew she'd enjoy. And the leapfrog picnic basket is a hit too. It's just that I'm ok with one or two of those items, not, thenm being the bulk of the gifts and now overrunning the other toys too, kwim?

Sounds like you did great with gifts! And I love the pants!! They're perfect!!

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> Princesses . . . ugh. I am cool with the idea that princesses exist - they do - But not so much the disney version. My kids haven't even seen a disney princess movie. (not purposefully avoiding it, but since my first was a boy . . . it just hasn't seemed necessary) Norah has a couple outfits that say "snow princess" or just "princess" on it, and that's ok. Not ideal, but I mean, who wouldn't want to fantasize about being a princess? Nothing wrong with pretend play - the disney princesses . . . I loved them as a kid, but I really don't like how it's become an obsession for so many moms/daughters that I know. EVERYTHING is princess. I'm sure there must be other intrests, but all you see on clothes and toys, and everything is princess-themed that is just out of hand. IMHO.
> 
> Carrie: glad you got things you wanted! and some surprises! My mom got me this retro kitchen stool that I've mentioned that I wanted. My Grandma had one, and it was always my "helper" stool, and my seat at her table (it's a red vinyl seat/step stool)


I don't have a problem with princesses per se. I love dressup, I'm totally a stereotypical girly girl that way. But I'm with you Kat, I like it in moderation, not when it becomes the be all and end all-- which is what my nieces are like, so I think they just assume Tenley should go the same way. I don't mind her loving princesses, but not when it means she won't play with anything else. I don't see that happening with Nora it doesn't seem like-- she still has varied interests.

That's such a cool gift!
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> Maybe it's b/c I really love WDW and am really into Disney stuff myself, but I LOVE the dresses. The other stuff not so much -- like you're saying I try to avoid all the gratuitous princess marketing, b/c they plaster them on EVERYTHING. But I love the dress up dresses, and I don't mind a few coloring books to give her some thing to play with with characters she knows and likes. In moderation it's actually really fun to see her imagination take off with it. And honestly she got the bow and arrow from Brave and she hasn't put it down all day. If she's into archery now, cool, you know? It intro'd her to something I never would have though of! (and, cuteness factor, she calls it a "shoot and arrow"!)


Yes, this! Everything in moderation.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*


I love your bump! It looks so much bigger than last time! Do you like that, or is it weird? Or maybe it's just the picture?! Anyways, I love it. I miss my bump.

So... Tenley was up alllll night long last night. Totally jinxed myself. I think the good sleep has been because she's fnially started walking so she's kind of resting in between developmental milestones. But she's also teething pretty hardcore right now, so it makes sense that she's going to have good nights and bad nights.

Other good things-- DH and I opted out of his family's gift excahgne this year in favor of spending the money on ourselves-- $80-100 each. I haven't gotten anything for him yet because he wanted to wait and see what he was getting from others. He bought me the Lug bag I've been wanting for months. And then I've got about $35-40 left to spend too. I can't decide what else to get. A lot of the stuff on my list is house related, so I probably will just pick it up next time we go grocery shopping lol. But I also wanted some new nail polish, and a few tank tops. Little things like that.

Back to work today after 4 days off. Will be weeeiirdd! I'm so tired after last night, even though I managed to catch up on my sleep over the past few days.

Hope everyone has some good down time for the rest of the week now!


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

I do feel bigger than last time. I don't know if it's just because I'm carrying differently, or what. It could be because my belly is more baby than it has been (since I started this pregnancy at a lower weight than the others) - but I do really feel that this baby *is* bigger. IDK we'll find out! and obviously, 3rd baby means obviously a uterus that's been stretched before, so you tend to expand faster.

I have a feeling that these last few weeks will kind of go like a . . waltz? . . quick, quick, sloooow, quick, quick, sloooow (or whatever dance it is that the feet movements are like that)

I'm glad you're at peace with a decision.

We are trying to decide what to spend our cash on. Some will go towards immediate expenses, so that when others roll around, we will have spare $$ to spend on that stuff. I need to list a few wraps for sale. I'm bored with my stash, LOL. I think I'll list everything that isn't a definite "for keeps" Which means 3 of my 5 wraps will be on the chopping block. There is one more, I might list for super cheap as a dye possiblty for someone. I'm tired of looking at it, and not sure I want to take on the project myself.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

jj ~ my in-laws frustrate me like that. they always ask us what the boys want. i always send them a very specific list with links to the actual thing desired. they still send crap that no one wants or needs. I put a set of natural wooden drums on the list for Dylan. My FIL got him a plastic, electronic "educational" drum set that has preset programs in it. Ugh! I'm not totally against plastic, electronic, noise making toys but if I specifically ask from something else, why would get that instead? I mean, if I had just said drums for Dylan, fine. But I didn't. I went to Toys R Us and wanded a specific drum set onto his with list. He didn't get anything for Dylan from the actual wish list. He also got Kellen 3 sets of clothes. That boys has so many clothes he can't possibly wear them all. Meanwhile, Ethan doesn't have enough. I've told everyone to buy clothes for the oldest boy because everything trickles down so the younger boys have way too much. Plus, the clothes he bought are a size too big for Kellen so they can't even be used for another year but they'll probably be too small next winter.









The other thing he does is buy things from the wish lists but at a different store (Wal-Mart instead of TRU) so they don't get taken off the wish list. He doesn't call or email to tell anyone what he got so we can't take it off the lists and/or inform everyone else that this thing was already bought. So, I got the book, _Peaceful Parenting, Happy Kids_, from my FIL and my mom because my FIL didn't either buy from my Amazon wish list or check the wish list before buying or inform Sean that he bought it.

Anyone want the book?









I would return or donate anything you don't want. I'm with Carrie. Once the gift is given, it's yours to do with whatever you want. I'm also a bit snarky in that I would make it known that I gave away or returned the gifts I didn't want or need. I would hope that the givers would get the message that this was a waste of money. Next time I'd appreciate either getting something truly useful or wanted or nothing at all.

As to being angry at the gift givers, it may be that they just had no idea what to get. IDK Some people seem to have a really hard time with seeing the value in things that are not mainstream.









We're having tornado warnings and Sean and I supposed to go on a date some time today while my mom is here. I hope the weather gets better. Even if there is no tornado, it's still very rainy and windy. We want to go to the new Indian restaurant. Yum! I haven't had good Indian food in a loooong time.

Forgot to say, Sean got me a Kindle Fire!

Oh, you want to talk about electronics overload?! We now have a desktop computer, a laptop, a Kindle Fire e-reader/tablet, a smartphone, a Nook e-reader, a Wii, two XBox 360s and soon-to-be two Playstation 3s.







We've had a Wii (that no one really likes) and a PS3 that one of Sean's friends gave us to give to the boys 2 Christmases ago. My mom got the boys an XBox 360 Kinect, Trish got an XBox 360 from her parents and she bought a PS3 for Ryan. Now, if anyone ever says they don't have anywhere to play a game, I think I'll scream.









Oh, and Ryan gave Ethan his old iPod Touch. Ethan was so happy about that. He has wanted one for so long. He loves it. He spent the rest of the day snapping pictures and listening to music.


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

MW-- Exactly!! I created a pinterest wishlist, so it not only has a lengthy description AND and picture, but it also tells you exactly where to get it. It was so laid out easy for people! lol

We've tried playing with the Lily doll. Tenley just stares wide-eyed at it. We'll keep trying. It's funny, all these new toys for Christmas, and other than the farm set, and the cabbage patch baby, she doesn't really seem attached to any of them. She's wandering around right now with a wooden recorder. Typical! lol

I saw that about Ethan and the ipod. Too sweet!

We got a Wii from my parents (like hand me down, because they don't use it, not a gift). It's primarily just to be able ot use netflix on the tv now, but I'm also keeping an eye out for cheap, interesting looking games. Anyone have suggestions for good, easy games? Mostly for DH and I to play together.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Our favorites were MarioKart and Carnival Games. We don't play ours either, anymore. I like it, it's just not something that occurs to us to do anymore.

BTW: JJ - your family pics turned out AWESOME!

Norah likes her doll stroller. (to try to ride in) and likes the dolls, because they are cuddly and came with pacifiers, which she has enjoyed trying out. Gabe LOVES his dinosaur. LOVES.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

My family is pretty good about presents for the kids. They ask what's on their list and follow it. Because of all the hand-me-down toys that Ava gets from my nieces and big siblings, my sister is getting us a year membership to the local children's museum as our family present. My mom got the big kids a board game to share and cash. She's getting Ava that Leapfrog Picnic basket like Tenley got and a Thomas the Train bath toy. I'm kind of meh about plastic and electronic toys. Ava loves certain ones and could care less about the other ones. She loves to make things play music and stands up to dance to it. Since we were trying to encourage physical movement for so long, I was totally ok with those types of toys if it encouraged her to move. I'm usually not a fan of clothing with characters on it but character toys, I don't usually have a problem with. She got a Thomas train and a Charlie train. She also got a stuffed Elmo and a Thomas the Train case with stickers that she's been playing with since yesterday. She liked the shopping cart at first but then got pissed when she couldn't get in it so she's ignored it since then. My dad sent her a $50 giftcard to Target so we'll pick out some stuff there. And one of her aunts gave her $20 cash so I may add that to the Target card and find something fun for her there.

Christmas was ok. DH got mad at me and spent most of the day not talking to me. Whatevs. He makes poor choices and then gets pissed. I can't help him with that. He did help out a lot on Christmas Eve so that's good. We had a pretty low-key Christmas. I spent, collectively on all five kids, about $250. Not too bad. They each got two Santa presents and two presents from DH and I. DH and I did not exchange presents this year. The big kids made us gift certificates as our present which I thought was very thoughtful and clever. DSD 15 and DSS 12 went to my MIL's assisted living facility after breakfast Christmas morning and sang carols for the residents. They loved it and my MIL was happy to see them. Ava is so tired that she took a short nap Christmas morning, a nice long nap yesterday afternoon and I woke her up at 9 AM this morning. I'm almost done with my 12 hr work day and I miss her so much! I didn't really get to see her at all today.

akind1, 30 weeks is awesome! Definitely in the countdown phase!

Disney World...I can't wait to take Ava. I'd love to be able to go before she turns 3 so she would still be free. My mom really wants to go with us and I'd love to be able to time it so my sister and her family goes as well. I think it would be more fun.

MW, how do you like the Kindle Fire?


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Kat ~ 30 weeks! Wow, where did the time go? That's a little more than a bump.







So cute!

Annie ~ I never did get around to answering you about your dh working on Christmas Eve. I would tell him not to do it. For someone who's not good with spending time with kids, he sure did make a lot of them.







I'm glad he did help out on the eve. Sorry he wasn't so great on the day.

JJ ~ I don't play video games at all so I have no idea what games are good or easy or boring or whatever. I can only tell you what my boys like, which are probably not what you are looking for. Kellen likes pretty much all of the Lego games for Batman, Indiana Jones, Star Wars and Harry Potter. Ethan likes games that are way too mature for him. Ryan likes Call of Duty Black Ops, Assasin's Creed, Halo, Battlefield.

I am not a fan of Disney at all. I avoid it for myself at all cost. I don't ban it from the kids, though. If they like anything Disney, that's fine. I wouldn't choose to go to Disney World ever, but if the kids really wanted to go, I guess I'd take them.

We had so much for Christmas. I don't know how that happened. We got Ryan that Pittsburgh Steelers coat that a posted a pic of on FB. He absolutely loved it and was shocked that we bought it. It was pretty expensive. But it was something he really wanted and he has matured and become so much more helpful and respectful in the past year (since he's been with Trish maybe), that I really felt like giving him something special. The boys got the XBox 360 Kinect and a couple of games for that. Ethan was most excited about that and the iPod Touch. Kellen said that everything he opened except the clothes was the thing he had always wanted.







They both got Heelys and bikes. The only thing really fun that Dylan got was a toddler trampoline.

I got Sean a bunch of grilling stuff, a thermometer, a set of dishes to hold raw and then cooked meats, meat claws (for shredding my pulled pork) and variety of smoking wood. He got me the Kindle Fire, a fabric shaver (my mom got me the exact same one







), and a love coupon book







. I haven't done much with the Kindle yet. I'm still setting it up. The boys got me necklaces and Dylan got me purple and orange nail polish, my two favorite colors.







Ryan and Trish got me a nice bag (because Trish said she knew how much I hated plastic bags and waste) filled with a Scentsy-like wax warmer and some scented waxes and some soft, fluffy orange and pink socks. We got Trish a robe (because I've seen her dashing out of the bathroom into the bedroom wrapped in a towel too many times), a couple pairs of jeans and some nail polish and lip gloss. Oh, and some Victoria's secret scented body wash, lotion and spray. I'm sure there's a lot more that I'm leaving out.

Sean and I went out for Indian. It was good. Sean said it was nice to be able to sit and talk without being constantly interrupted and/or saying, "Stop that," "Be quiet," "Get down!"


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

MW: glad you got to go out for Indian! that's awesome! And it sounds like you had a room full of presents to open - that everyone loved.

Annie - I like keeping Christmas low key - at this age the only big gift we could even think of was an aquarium, and we had our doubts about whether or not that was a good idea. I'd love to keep it that way or do something else fun - in the future, even when/if we have more money to spend. We'll see.

It seems like everyone I know that can get pregnant, is getting pregnant LOL 2013 is going to be a very busy baby year! Our local VBAC options are becoming more limited. The practice and hospital I am with is the most supportive of the local options, and that's not saying much. Friends that are going there have gotten a list of "musts" they have to comply with in order to try for TOL (these are VBAC mamas) On one hand, one mama - who had VBA2C with this practice 18 months ago or so - appreciates them being up front with her about their practices so she's not blindsided later. OTOH, its discouraging others.

its frustrating enough that less than 10% even try to VBAC. but 85% of those suceed! ugh.

Norah is sick. low fever and only wants to drink and snuggle.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Aw, sorry Norah is sick! Hopefully it's a short and not to serious bug!

That is frustrating about the VBAC options - but at least there are any. I know so many first time moms who had sections, for whatever reason, and I always sort of mourn that for them b/c it IS such a battle to get a TOL the next time.

But my gf who was told it was virtually impossible for her to try now b/c she's had 2 sections is still open to a TOL next time. And 2 months ago when she had her baby she said she didn't care, she would just have a section again and save herself the worry. But now, she's changed her tune. I jokingly said if she wants to home birth I'd be her doula. ;-) But it's tongue in cheek b/c there are NO hb mws in my state that I know of who will do a HBA2C.

MW - awesome for a night out! Sounds wonderful!

Going to try to get thru this day! Yesterday was epic and hard. Lots of tears, mine and Nora's. Hoping for a better day!


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

No local HB midwives will do HBACs here either. And the nearest birth center option is well over an hour away (they have to have an OB on staff in order to accept out of hospital VBACs). There is a wonderful hospital in that area too, that's very natural birth friendly. I am just not willing to travel that far for prenatals and delivery.

I had a good hospital VBAC with Norah, and while I'd LOVE a waterbirth in a birth center or at home, I am resigned to another hospital birth - it's ok. Not all births have to be ideal - I've come to grips with the fact that it's only a small part of my relationship with my child, and a healthy babe and mom is really the thing of paramount importance. But I think that women should have the right to CHOOSE where to birth, and have supportive care providers (so long as they really aren't making stupid choices that put them or their babies in danger. I do believe in the expertise of midwives and in some cases that warrant it, OBs) It's just beyond frustrating - especially when the parent organization - ACOG - is on the side of the mothers wanting a TOL. oh well.

I don't think it's major - Norah's fever is right at 100 or so, not near high enough to be worth medicating, but enough to make her just want to sleep through it. I wonder if she's got a sore throat, since she's not wanting to eat much. She had a piece of cheese. but refused her banana and chex. Fluids are the main thing - I'm just used to my little piggie wanting to eat!


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Exactly, I'm with you. I don't like when a mama doesn't have a choice or gets steamrolled or misinformed.

When I wasn't sure if I'd be allowed to homebirth with Finn, I was broken hearted, but I knew it would be ok if that's where we ended up.

Finn won't touch bananas when he's sick and they are his go to food. I think the texture turns him off when he can't quite breathe thru his nose.

I need to find some indoor play areas for these kids. Where do you guys go when it's too cold for outside play but everyone is going stir crazy?


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Our mall has a toddler play area (But it gets crazy in yucky weather since it's free) - we also have memberships to the local museums that have kids areas for precisely this purpose - Both the kids museum and the state museum that has a few toddler and kid oriented areas. There are some indoor bounce house type places, but we avoid those on rainy days.

I like long weekends, but getting caught up on work sucks.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Mamas always have choices. You can refuse major surgery. A hospital staff cannot turn you away in labor because you refuse major surgery unless they can send to another hospital that will admit you and you have time to get there. A doctor cannot refuse to see you for prenatals because you refuse to do everything they tell you unless they can refer you to another doctor who will see you. It's illegal for them to do it. I would fight because that's the only way things will ever change for anyone. If everyone just rolls over and goes along while whining and crying about it to everyone else, they are not really any better than the doctors insisting on these things. Sorry. That's harsh, I know, but people, in general, and women, specifically, have always had to fight for their personal rights and we need to continue to do that. If you are not willing to stand up for what you want and need and what is your right to have, then don't cry when you don't get it. :soap

In that situation, I'd have an unassisted homebirth. I would probably continue to see an OB or medwife for any labwork and tests and an ultrasound to make sure there weren't issues with the placenta and then I'd just quit going at 36 weeks. You can always go to the hospital at the end if you change your mind. Hospitals get women whom no one has ever seen before all the time. I would travel as far as was possible. I drove 50-60 minutes for my prenatals with my midwives. It was absolutely worth it. You DO have options.

AFM, I got in an argument with my mom and yelled at her, "F you! You can get the F out of my house!" That was yesterday. She's still here.







I guess she can't take a hint?









Sean and I got into a big discussion Christmas night. I probably shouldn't have started talking but I had taken a muscle relaxer and my mouth just started running over.







The gist was that both of us are hurt by and angry with each other because we feel like the other doesn't care and isn't supportive of us. The end was me saying that I thought we had two choices. We could either try to change how we feel about each other (because I don't want to spend the rest of my life in an angry marriage) or we can split up. (I told him I was thinking of going back with my mother when she left but I think that option has been squashed by my angry mouth. See above.







) He agreed. I told him that I did not want him to agree but do nothing because he is expecting me to take care of it all. If he wants things to change, he needs to do something about it. He needs to stop using work as an excuse for why he can't participate in this or that. If his family is the most important thing, then he should be willing to do whatever it takes to save his family, even if it means losing his job. If he's not willing to do that, he may end up with alone with only his job.

So, the next day he dressed Dylan in his, "Breastmilk: The original Happy Meal" shirt. It was a nice gesture but we weren't taking him out anywhere. I reserve my advocacy shirts for when we go out because that's the point. If he only wears them at home, it's just preaching to the choir.









This is long so I'll stop for now. If I have time and I remember, I'll come back and post more specifics about what I said so I can get your opinion on whether or not I'm being too sensitive or wacky about it. It's kind of hard for me to tell right now since I've recently gone off my antidepressant meds and have been talking muscle relaxers.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

MW: it's not that I disagree with you entirely - women do have options. I HATE that they have to fight so hard for something that even stupid ACOG says is ok. Evidently the practice I go to has started handing out contracts with some blatant illegal language - include refusal to treat crap - But many of the things the "contract" states are actually far better compromises than any other local area OB (or CNMs for that matter). My doula is considering sicing the ACLU on them, LOL. It's how she got them to allow another VBA2C mama a chance at a TOL (which ended in an emergency c-section due to placental abruption - which is possible in anyone, nothing to do with her prior c-sections).

As for me, so far I've met no resistance - I think mostly due to already having a successful VBAC - so I'll continue to see them. And I'm glad in a way about the contract - it gets issues out on the table early so women know what they are up against and have time to try to find another provider before a bait and switch at 30+ weeks. I wouldn't mind traveling so much for prenatals. I do mind, ALOT, traveling while in labor. At that point, you almost might as well UC - if you are looking at traveling over an hour just to get where you're going. It's a bit different in a homebirth where at least you know the midwife is coming to YOU.

It's good that you and Sean talked - it's progress, one way or another. even if doped up on muscle relaxers. LOL


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

The choice can be REALLY hard to make when your dr basically tells you flat out, you're going to die and your baby is going to die, but do what you want. It's horrible that they have this attitude. I think a lot of women give UP the fight b/c they feel like they can't take that risk. Of course if they feel strongly enough they will fight for it, b/c they know how small the chances are. But I think at times even the strongest women cave when faced with an ultimatum like that. You know?

Mw - conversations are always good, even when we don't get far. I'm looking fwd to hearing more about this convo you had. I want specifics! Did he mention anything he would do differently? What will you do differently?


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

I suddenly have another minute so I'll share what we've learned and are doing. Since realizing our love languages, I'm much more tolerant and aware of chris's acts of service. I'm no longer bitchy (at least outwardly) when he decides to spot clean something for a long time, or wash the car, or cook an elaborate meal. These things really used to bug the crap out of me! And on some level they do but I'm trying hard to be more open minded and see what he is doing for me/us rather than only see these as selfish acts.

He is much more understanding about my wanting gifts. And light bulbs keep going off for him -- like when he realized why I would ask him to pick up a bagel for me on the way home from the gym in the morning (he would be so grumpy b/c he had planned to make pancakes, for instance). He is trying hard to not see these things as trivial b/c to me they are so important.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Carrie: hooray for lightbulb moments! and mmm bagels. I get one a week, LOL.

Norah is just a barnacle of a sleeping baby. She did eat some pizza for lunch, and she's drinking. I think maybe it's just a bad cold combined with teething. clear snot, a little cough. Gabe is coughing some, but in fantastic spirits, so I am not worried about him so much.

BH are picking up. I don't enjoy them very much. They are just annoying. I know they have a purpose. I'm trying to focus on the positives of pregnancy, but I've reached the point in pregnancy where it's just hard. I hurt. my hips ache. I have a deep ache/pain/discomfort when I sit or lay down too long in the general crotch area. I'm uncomfortable in so many positions, and no position is comfortable for long. And I have nearly 3 months yet to go! wahhhhhh. I could have it so much worse! I have friends that DO! so I try to look on the bright side. *sigh* this is the last baby and I want to enjoy this pregnancy. like treasure and bask in it, but it's hard sometimes.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

exactly what do you imagine that makes it an actual fight? i mean, all anyone has to do is refuse whatever it is. refuse to sign the paperwork. if they then say they can't see you, you just calmly remind them that they can't legally do that unless they can refer you to another provider who will see you. that's not a fight. they aren't going to grab you and try to forcibly strap youi to an operating table while you are kicking and hitting and biting to get away. that would be a fight.

as far as docs using scare tactics, yes, you do have to be able to stand up to that, but all you have to do is state that you disagree and are willing to take full responsibility for yourself and your baby. you should be doing that already. if you want to be more argumentative, you can request actual scientific data to back up their statements. if they continue to bother you, you can leave. i guess my point is that it's only as much of a fight as you choose to make it. the doctor can say whatever s/he wants. you can choose how you react to it. "Whatever. That's interesting. I'll take that under advisement. I'm still not consenting to major surgery without an immediate, urgent personal issue specific to me and my baby. Thank you."

If a woman chooses to go along with the doctor for whatever reason rather than standing up for what she wants or needs, then she needs to accept that choice. If she isn't happy with that choice, make a different one. Do something but don't just complain about it. I don't know. I guess I just don't understand why it's perceived as so difficult. I've dealt with some nasty doctors. They pissed me off. That made me more determined to do things my way rather than theirs. If a woman doesn't have the confidence to stand up for what she believes, maybe she needs to work on that.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

The conversation with DH was mainly me telling him that I felt like he not only didn't care about but actually had disdain for all the things that are important to me, like home birth and exclusive and extended breastfeeding and gentle discipline and attachment parenting and unschooling. He said he feels like I don't support him in his career and that I don't keep the house clean enough.

The Ball situation is a good example of that. He was hurt and angry that I didn't go but he would not acknowledge everything I did to try to find suitable child care. He is stuck on the fact that I was honest and told him that I didn't really want to go. Isn't that showing support if I say I will go if we can set things up even though I don't want to? I didn't go because it was too far away for too long for me to leave a nursing baby, not because I just didn't want to. He refuses to understand that.

I am bothered by the fact that he felt the need to lie to everyone about why I didn't go, especially in front of Ethan. It makes me feel like he's ashamed and embarrassed by me. Otherwise, why would he tell them truth? He said he lied because that's just easier for him than having to explain and defend my parenting choices. I don't understand why he'd feel the need to do that. He says the people he works with and for would not understand why I'm still breastfeeding so they wouldn't take that as an acceptable reason to not come to the Ball. Then that would reflect poorly on his evaluations. Ok, I can understand that being a concern for him but, ultimately, if he truly thinks his family is the most important thing, then he shouldn't put that above us being happy and staying together. Iif he's going to hold a grudge against me for that, he is choosing his work over me and over his family.

I'm also hurt that he doesn't do little things like dress Dylan in the advocacy shirts that I bought for him or in the pants I knit for him. He seems to be embarrassed by all of that. He says we don't need to advertise. To me, that's a big part of the point. That's what advocacy is. It's not like I'm standing on the street corner with a bull horn shouting at everyone to accept Jesus into their hearts or they will go to hell.







I'm putting a shirt on my baby that says, "Born at Home" or something about breastfeeding or being intact. I don't talk to anyone about any of that unless they ask. I feel that if he really appreciates all of that that I do for our children and values it and supports it, he wouldn't be embarrassed by it and want to hide it from the people he works with. He's back me up instead of covering me up.

I told him that would be like me being friends with a bunch of anti-military people and telling him not to tell them he's a Marine. I asked him if that wouldn't bother him. He said it wouldn't. If those were the type of people I chose to be friends with, he'd be fine with that. Really? I find that hard to believe. I would not be ok with him being friends with people that I couldn't be around.

Then the thing about keeping the house clean. I told him I am not the maid or housekeeper. I am home to take care of our children, to pay attention to them, spend time with them, do things with them, feed them, all that sort of thing. Apparently, he doesn't value that much. He values a clean house over loved children.







I do clean every day but he doesn't seem to notice. I sweep and pick up toys and do laundry and wipe off counters and do dishes but I'm a morning cleaner. By the end of the day when he gets home, I've already done that umpteen times and am tired and not doing much more until the next morning.

I really don't see anyway we can get past this without counseling. I told him that. That was the part I said he needed to do something about and not just expect me to take care of it all. Whenever I try to schedule anything he says he'll try to get out of work but can't guarantee that he will be able to. I said he needs to do whatever he has to do so that he can guarantee it. Otherwise, he is again choosing work over his family. And, yes, the extreme consequence of that could be that he loses his job but it is just a job. It's a means to an ends, getting paid so we can buy things. There are other jobs. If he truly values his family over his work, he would be willing to make that sacrifice if needed.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

MW, do you think that he has true disdain for gentle parenting, home birth, no circ, etc. or does he just not feel that it's his fight to fight? I know that my DH agrees with me on most of that stuff but he doesn't feel passionately one way or the other about them so doesn't feel the need to defend them. He does feel strongly about patent infringements and copyright issues and I don't care either way. He does talk about that stuff. Is it kind of like that?

Medical care stuff and refusing treatment/care. My only concern with those things is that if you refuse a treatment course or surgery, can your insurance refuse to cover the charges incurred for the alternate path taken? I know that when people have left the hospital AMA that their insurance could/did refuse to cover the charges. We have two hospitals in my town. One is private and my understanding is they can refuse to treat someone. The other hospital, where Ava gets all of her cardiology stuff done, is a public hospital and they can't refuse to treat anyone. One thing I discovered when I was pregnant with Ava was that it became a much more difficult choice for me when it was a "real" choice to make rather than an abstract discussion, you know? I had to really weigh out all the pros and cons and decide if I could live with the potential risk. I had to go through those same motions when researching vaccines for Ava. In theory, I don't much see the need for vaccines. But Ava's health issues were a game changer there. So I had to dig a little deeper. And I had to look at actual numbers of VPDs and decide if I was comfortable with that risk. It's just reinforcement for me though that women need to be better informed and take more responsibility for their healthcare instead of just trusting what's told to them.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

It's one to say to a woman: "well just say this. Refuse to do this" when you are in the moment and really doing those things, you need a strong background support team. It's hard to go it alone. It's why I feel doulas are so important. Women NEED that support. I can and did say, I'll take that into consideration, etc, and I did. I try not to dismiss docs out of hand- I make them explain themselves.
For a lot of women speaking up is a real fight. It takes some courage when you are at your most vulnerable. And then - should things not go to plan - you second guess yourself.

It sounds like you two do needs mediator of some sort. I hope Sean will agree to that.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> MW, do you think that he has true disdain for gentle parenting, home birth, no circ, etc. or does he just not feel that it's his fight to fight? I know that my DH agrees with me on most of that stuff but he doesn't feel passionately one way or the other about them so doesn't feel the need to defend them. He does feel strongly about patent infringements and copyright issues and I don't care either way. He does talk about that stuff. Is it kind of like that?


When he rolls his eyes and huffs and says things like, "Do you _have_ to advertise?", it sure feels like disdain. He wouldn't have cared if I didn't breastfeed and he's still not 100% in agreement on AP or unschooling. When I left the decision about whether or not to circ up to him, he chose to circ Ethan.







He would most definitely choose disposable diapers over cloth if I let him. He goes along with me on a lot of things because I will not compromise on those things.

I don't know of anything that my dh is passionate about. He really doesn't get worked up about anything. The thing is that I don't see how telling someone that I couldn't be at a function because I couldn't be away from our breastfed baby for so long would be a fight. It's not any business of anyone else. He wouldn't even need to respond to anyone who made any kind of snarky comment. I guess if he felt he had to, he could just say that is what I do. Whatever...









I just don't really understand why he would care so much why a bunch of virtual strangers that won't have any real, long lasting role in our lives think about us. I could maybe buy that one of his bosses somewhere along the line might right up a bad fit rep because s/he didn't like me but, technically, they aren't allowed to do that. There are ways to appeal and refute those things. Ultimately, the worse that could happen at this point would be that he would not get promoted past Major. The thing with that is that it's very likely he won't get promoted past Major, anyway, just because he's old. He may not have enough time to get Lt. Colonel before being too old to do much of anything. And, if that happened, so what? Major is pretty high up there. The pay and benefits are more than enough for us to live comfortably. He's not too old that he couldn't have another decent career after the Marine Corps if he retires after 20 years of service. It would be highly unlikely that he wouldn't be able to get a relatively decent job with a college degree and retiring from military service as a Major. He would get preference for any federal government job.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> Medical care stuff and refusing treatment/care. My only concern with those things is that if you refuse a treatment course or surgery, can your insurance refuse to cover the charges incurred for the alternate path taken? I know that when people have left the hospital AMA that their insurance could/did refuse to cover the charges. We have two hospitals in my town. One is private and my understanding is they can refuse to treat someone. The other hospital, where Ava gets all of her cardiology stuff done, is a public hospital and they can't refuse to treat anyone.


Hmm...I've never heard of an insurance company not paying for a cheaper option. I don't know about leaving a hospital AMA.

On private hospitals, there is this:

"In the case of pregnant women in labor, an emergency medical condition exists if there is not sufficient time to deliver the baby at another facility or if the unborn child is at critical risk and needs assistance." http://www.ascensionhealth.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=146&Itemid=172

It does say that only hospitals that receive federal funds are obligated. However, I read elsewhere that it essentially covers all hospitals because there are very few hospitals that do not at least accept Medicare and/or Medicaid.

This one is better. It states that a private hospital can only refuse treatment for non-emergencies and labor is considered an emergency. This is talking about someone without insurance and no other means to pay but that's just for the sake of example. The obligation is not limited to inability to pay.

"Imagine a pregnant woman without health insurance living in an area that does not have a public hospital. If she goes into labor and the closest hospital is privately-run, the EMTLA requires that the hospital must admit the woman regardless of her ability to pay as childbirth is considered an emergency situation." http://law.freeadvice.com/malpractice_law/hospital_malpractice/hospital-patients.htm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> One thing I discovered when I was pregnant with Ava was that it became a much more difficult choice for me when it was a "real" choice to make rather than an abstract discussion, you know? I had to really weigh out all the pros and cons and decide if I could live with the potential risk. I had to go through those same motions when researching vaccines for Ava. In theory, I don't much see the need for vaccines. But Ava's health issues were a game changer there. So I had to dig a little deeper. And I had to look at actual numbers of VPDs and decide if I was comfortable with that risk. It's just reinforcement for me though that women need to be better informed and take more responsibility for their healthcare instead of just trusting what's told to them.


Yes, and this is exactly what I was talking about. You had specific emergent issues with your baby. That's not the same as a doctor telling a woman that she has to have a c-section solely because she had one before without any other indication that there are other dangers. For example, my midwives wanted me to have ultrasounds to make sure that my placenta was not attached to my surgical scar. If it had been, they would have sent me to the hospital. That would have been a specific emergent issue for me.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> It's one to say to a woman: "well just say this. Refuse to do this" when you are in the moment and really doing those things, you need a strong background support team. It's hard to go it alone. It's why I feel doulas are so important. Women NEED that support. I can and did say, I'll take that into consideration, etc, and I did. I try not to dismiss docs out of hand- I make them explain themselves.
> For a lot of women speaking up is a real fight. It takes some courage when you are at your most vulnerable. And then - should things not go to plan - you second guess yourself.


I didn't think you were talking about having to make a decision like that in the moment. I thought you were talking about people in the beginning choosing a care provider. Those are two very different situations. I have been in the situation of having to make the decision between surgery or not sort of in the moment.

I didn't know a c-section was recommended when I was pregnant with Ryan until I was in labor, just before I headed to the hospital. I had had a midwife my entire pregnancy. I took Lamaze classes and planned to have drug free labor and birth. I had to make the decision to agree to surgery and shift all of my expectations in the 30 minute drive to the hospital. I ended up being in labor at the hospital for about 8 hours before I finally had the surgery. I was fine the entire time until the anesthesiologist came in to explain how the epidural would work. He had to do it three times because they kept putting me off for emergencies. I was not an emergency only because I was still in the early stages of labor and my baby was not in distress. I didn't have any extra support other than my mother. I hadn't heard of doulas back then. So, I've been there. I know how that is. Being informed goes a long way in helping to make that decision.

If a woman has trouble speaking up, then she needs to find someone who will speak up for her. That would ideally be her partner. If not her partner, than maybe another family member or a doula. But if she really wants to do it a certain way, she needs to take all the steps to ensure that it happens that way. If she isn't willing to do the work needed, then she is choosing another path. Women (people) need to take responsibility for themselves. If they aren't capable of doing that, then they need to accept that others are going to dictate what they do.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> When he rolls his eyes and huffs and says things like, "Do you _have_ to advertise?", it sure feels like disdain. He wouldn't have cared if I didn't breastfeed and he's still not 100% in agreement on AP or unschooling. When I left the decision about whether or not to circ up to him, he chose to circ Ethan.
> 
> ...


I can see how that would be upsetting. My DH sometimes makes comments about things I post on my FB wall but I always tell him that it's my wall and I can put on it whatever I want. I think he would probably choose disposable dipes but he loves the money-saving part of cloth diapers so maybe not. Maybe your DH feels like he would have to "defend" you if people started making negative comments and he doesn't feel like he's in a position to do that? IDK, just trying to understand where it would be coming from.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

The situation that some of us are in (local VBAC mamas) - we are kind of far into our pregnancy to choose alternative care - and for others, it's early enough to *try* to find another provider, but alot depends on what you are willing to do - as it always does. I am not willing to travel nearly 2 hours in labor, to deliver at a really awesome facilty that does hospital waterbirths. With Norah, I went from active labor - just low moaning, I could be here for a while - to transition and pushing in less time than that (I probably spent 8 hours in active labor, 1 in transition, and the better part of another pushing) - I'd rather be at home than in the car. But for some, the drive is worth it, and a risk they are willing to take.

There really doesnt seem to be any better local options, which is horrible.

As for insurance not paying for cheaper options: HA! insurance rarely pays for cheaper options, they just lowball the expensive ones. Mine doesn't pay for homebirth and considers the out of hospital birth center out of network. (which had I been able to choose either one for baby #1, financially speaking, I likely wouldn't be in this VBAC boat). I think so much of the high c-section rate is due to doctors and CNMs wanting to cover their butts rather than possibly deal with a more complicated vaginal delivery.

You can choose of course to fight the insurance battles, which I know some people have won, but it takes time, energy, and sometimes money (to pay expenses up front and then hope for reimbursement) that alot of people just don't have. People need to stand up and fight. And educate themselves. It will take time to do that. In the meantime, you have women needing care NOW. And for some, UC isn't an option, but a safe hospital birth would be (because of other medical issues that wouldn't preclude a vaginal birth, or necessitate a c-section necessarily, but need monitoring, like true diabetics and blood pressure issues.)

DH: We thankfully agree on a lot of the same things, if for different reasons. I think perhaps on some things (like CIO) he could have been persuaded to try if he'd been married to a different person. Same with me - I think I could have been persuaded to a selective/delayed schedule vs. not vaxing entirely had I had a different partner. But, generally, we are in agreement about things, and that's helpful.

As for Sean . . . does he see the USMC as a job? or as a lifestyle? that affects some of his rationale. To you, it's just a job, but maybe it's more to him than that. For a lot of Marines it's part of their identity, and not something they can easily walk away from. (is this the right way to look at it? is your way? doesn't matter but it does affect the decision making process). I wonder, is he totally passive about AP/breastfeeding, all that that because he just IS passive, or because he loves you and wants you to have your way with that - obviously YOU are passionate about it, and maybe he just doesn't have strong feelings either way, and lets you go your way. Like, I don't know, I don't have a strong opinion about computers and such. DH does, he's very particular about the technology we have. He'll get the best deal he can for what he wants, but he doesn't tend to skimp on the particulars. Even though I'd rather skimp myself and just get something that functions, I'm not passionate enough about it to argue. In the long run, he's probably right, and we really do need that much memory and processing power and whatever. So I just roll my eyes and say, whatever.

I like some of the advocacy shirts I've seen. I don't own any for the kids. I don't see the need to advertise . . the closest I have are little socks I got for Gabe that say "boob man" Especially in regards to breastfeeding, you are going to probably see me do it at some point, I don't really need my kid to have a shirt that says so. Then again, I don't have many shirts that advertise anything (that I paid for anyway) I don't see anything WRONG with the shirts - but it's one of those things I don't bother with myself. (not trying to just side with Sean or anything, just trying to add perspective).

Does he say if there is anything specific he doesn't like or disagrees with in regards to your parenting or unschooling? It would be easier to deal with specifcs vs. vague disinterest or uneasiness.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> The situation that some of us are in (local VBAC mamas) - we are kind of far into our pregnancy to choose alternative care - and for others, it's early enough to *try* to find another provider, but alot depends on what you are willing to do - as it always does. I am not willing to travel nearly 2 hours in labor, to deliver at a really awesome facilty that does hospital waterbirths. With Norah, I went from active labor - just low moaning, I could be here for a while - to transition and pushing in less time than that (I probably spent 8 hours in active labor, 1 in transition, and the better part of another pushing) - I'd rather be at home than in the car. But for some, the drive is worth it, and a risk they are willing to take.


Yes, and you have thoughtfully made those choices. I'm not saying you made the wrong choices. You are the only one who can make the right choices for. However, that doesn't change the fact that you do still have other options. If you are not comfortable going with any of those other options, that's fine for you. You also stood your ground about having a VBAC twice, right? That is the main goal for you and you did "fight" to get by not just going along with the docs who wanted you to have another c-section from the beginning.

But if a woman says she wants a VBAC but the docs won't _let_ her, she's not taking any responsibility. She's giving all the power and control and responsibility to someone else when she doesn't have to. There is no law that requires that she have a routine repeat c-section. There is no law that gives a doctor the authority to force a woman to have major surgery against her will, except in the case of a true emergency when there isn't time to get consent before someone will most certainly die.

As long as women do that, things will stay the same. Doctors aren't going to suddenly wake up one day and decide they are going to let women choose whatever they want just because. Someone has to demand that change. If women are not willing to demand that change, than I don't want to hear them complaining about how things are.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

As for DH, it is possible that he doesn't know how to defend me. I brought that up. I told him some things he could say. If someone made some comment about me _still_ breastfeeding, he would just refer them to the WHO and/or the AAP. Both organization recommend breastfeeding for up to 2 years now, I believe. I would see that as a possible chance to educate and inform people since they brought it up. I wouldn't think of it being about defending myself. I don't feel the need to defend myself from virtual strangers over things they think or say even when they are attacking me with their words. No one has the right to do that no matter who or where they are, even my boss at an official work function. It's called harassment and making a hostile work environment.

DH is a bit spineless when it comes to such situations. I think he was forced to bow to the authority of his father and others in charge regardless of whether or not they are doing a bad thing so much as a child that he doesn't know how to stop anyone from treating him badly. That really annoys me because I view that as weak. I can understand not doing or saying things that would cause a problem but not to the point of lying on a regular basis about the person you are supposed to be partnered in life with. That just makes me feel like he's not really in love me. He's in love with an idea of me as his wife. He's in love with an idea he has of marriage and family rather than what he actually has. So, he doesn't see and appreciate us for the people we are. He just likes to show people that he has this nice family, even if it isn't real.

As far as him telling me about any specifics, see above.







He really does not talk about anything. You wouldn't believe what it took for me to finally get him to talk to me the other day. I had to basically keep screaming at him and not let him walk away until he had no choice but to say something. Otherwise, he would have just humphed and shrugged and walked away and not said anything. The above description also goes to him being passive. He is very, very passive. I am not. If I care about something, I'm going to stand up for it. Like I've said before, if it's something important to me, I'm not going to compromise, especially if the other person can't give me rational, well-researched, well thought out reasons for doing it differently.

I can make some guesses based on the way he acts. I think he is finally mostly on board with educational unschooling. It took 8 years but he's finally getting it. I think it started to click for him when Ethan started reading at the average age without being taught. (Thank goodness for that. If he had been a delayed reader, we would have been in trouble.) He does not like the radical part, which is giving your children the same kinds of choices in all aspects of their lives. He has a really hard time with that for a few reasons. He is very much an all or nothing person. Either he does things all his way or not at all. He doesn't know how to work with the children to do the best he can to get everyone what they want within reason. Since I won't let him constantly punish and deny them, he thinks he has to give in to their every whim.

I have talked to him about this many, many times over the years. I have tried to explain ways that he can say no in gentle and loving ways rather than always just "giving in" to the kids. I've given him books to read, which he doesn't. He doesn't seem to be capable of doing that. Again, I think that goes back to his childhood. He was not really given choices or allowed to express an opinion or any negative emotions. His father wouldn't have it. I have told him that if he can't even take the time to read a few books that would help improve his relationship with his kids and with me and is only going to go with negative knee-jerk reactions based on his childhood experiences, his way is not going to trump mine. He gets mad at me for always telling him what to do but he says he doesn't have time to read because of work. Again, putting work before family. If it was really important to him, he would find the time. If it's not that important to him, he doesn't get as much say in what happens as I do.

When we had Ethan he was very embarrassed about me breastfeeding in public, especially in front of his Marine Corps buddies. He has now gotten to the point where he knows I'm going to do it so he just pretends like it isn't happening. He's still embarrassed by it in front of his people, though. I don't think he minds the cloth diapers that much. But he doesn't like my knit covers. He doesn't think they are cool or fashionable or whatever. He's embarrassed that I dress his baby boys in such things. He will always go for a pocket or AI2 and regular pants if he dresses the baby to go out. I find that insulting because I put a lot of time and effort into making these beautiful pants and he's embarrassed to use them. Wouldn't you think he'd want to show off my skills? I would. Even people (mostly women but some men) who know absolutely nothing about cloth diapers or knitting have expressed a lot of appreciation for the things I have knit.

WRT the advocacy shirts, most people are not going to see me breastfeed. I don't go out much. When I do go out I'm usually with other people who breastfeed so there's no need for exposure or education there. I am a breastfeeding advocate, though, so it is important for me to advertise. I don't start conversations about breastfeeding out of the blue with virtual strangers so the advocacy shirts are the next best thing. It shows that it's something that I can be approached about if someone is interested. It's part of the mission of normalizing breastfeeding and educating people about it. An advocacy shirt plants a seed. I don't really see it advertising. I'm not walking around yelling at everyone, "Look at me! Look what I do!" I have a t-shirt on my breastfed baby/toddler that says, "Breastmilk," or "Breastfeeding".

More important to me, because some people will see me breastfeeding, are the home birth shirts I have. No one else is going to see me giving birth at home. Again, I don't go around telling anyone and everyone about it. I will tell people if the subject comes up but I don't go on and on about it. I'll just say something simple like, "My last two were born at home." I won't say anymore unless someone asks me about something or if they say something snarky. Even then, I make very benign, factual statements. I don't get into heated discussions with people about it. So, I do think it's important to "advertise" that in the way of my advocacy shirts more. Many, many people do not even know it's an option. Most others who know it's an option, still consider a hippie fringe thing, especially in the circles I am placed in a lot of the time. (Although, ultra-conservative Fox News seems to be supportive of home birth.)

The latest thing with that was what I had an outfit all picked out for Dylan to wear to the holiday party that DH's unit was having. I had out his "Born at Home" shirt and a pair of knit longies that matched perfectly with the shirt and a pair of his Robeez. (Those are another thing that embarrass dh because most of the people in his circle think soft-soled shoes are hippie moccasins. No one seems to care that they are better for proper foot development.) I hopped in the shower. When I got out, dh had Dylan dressed in a completely different outfit. I would have changed him but he had fallen asleep and I wasn't going to wake him up just for that. I was really hurt by that. Home birth is another issue that is very important to me. I think it's very important to get the message out there that it is a viable, safe and LEGAL option for mothers and families.

DH said that his official work functions are not a place to advertise such things. I understand that. I would not have dressed him in something like that for a Change of Command or some other actual official Marine Corps ceremony. However, this was a family fun function. It wasn't an official military/Marine Corps ceremony or function. It was not required or sanctioned by the military or the Marine Corps. It was supposed to be a fun time for the families to get together and just have fun. How is the shirt inappropriate for that? Maybe I'm clueless but I don't get it. I think that's just his excuse for being embarrassed by it and me.

Now this is really long again and I've been interrupted so many times that I can't remember what else I was gong to post. I'll probably be back with more.







Thanks for helping me hash this out, as Carrie would say.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Oh, Kat, I think I forgot to say in response to the VBAC stuff that I might make the same choice that you did in your situation. I sort of did in Hawaii, choosing to have Ethan at the army hospital because I couldn't find an experienced midwife who was willing to attend my birth at home even though it is legal there. I did not submit to early induction or a repeat c-section but I did compromise by submitting to twice weekly NSTs after 39w, I think. To me, that wasn't a big deal. Agreeing to a c-section just because I had had a previous one or to an early induction just because the powers that be had decided I _might_ have GD issues when there was nothing wrong with me or my baby were a big deal and I was not going to do either one.

And, I don't have any "Boob Man" breastfeeding advocacy stuff. I actually find that kind of offensive. I think it sexualizes breastfeeding, which is exactly what breastfeeding advocates are trying to get away from.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> As for DH, it is possible that he doesn't know how to defend me. I brought that up. I told him some things he could say. If someone made some comment about me _still_ breastfeeding, he would just refer them to the WHO and/or the AAP. Both organization recommend breastfeeding for up to 2 years now, I believe. I would see that as a possible chance to educate and inform people since they brought it up. I wouldn't think of it being about defending myself. I don't feel the need to defend myself from virtual strangers over things they think or say even when they are attacking me with their words. No one has the right to do that no matter who or where they are, even my boss at an official work function. It's called harassment and making a hostile work environment.
> DH is a bit spineless when it comes to such situations. I think he was forced to bow to the authority of his father and others in charge regardless of whether or not they are doing a bad thing so much as a child that he doesn't know how to stop anyone from treating him badly. That really annoys me because I view that as weak. I can understand not doing or saying things that would cause a problem but not to the point of lying on a regular basis about the person you are supposed to be partnered in life with. That just makes me feel like he's not really in love me. He's in love with an idea of me as his wife. He's in love with an idea he has of marriage and family rather than what he actually has. So, he doesn't see and appreciate us for the people we are. He just likes to show people that he has this nice family, even if it isn't real.
> ...


I can kind of get why a man might be sort of wary about his wife's breasts being exposed in public (not that he really should be. They aren't his breasts, and it's certainly not his problem if other people see them sexually, even when being used in a totally non sexual way) - But I don't understand why he'd be bothered by the homebirth stuff. I guess you'd have to ask him, if even can give you a clear answer. Shoot, I'd be proud as a peacock about a homebirth. Even among my less crunchy friends, most of them know someone, or know of someone who has given birth at home.

Maybe once I'm out of the trenches, so to speak, I'll be more into advocacy.trying hard just to plow through right now. I think it's fantastic that women really do have the choice to give birth at home. I also realize it's not the best choice for everybody. And kind of like breastfeeding, there are those that get all defensive and argumentative when you talk about it - maybe because they didn't know, or have only heard bad things, or wish they had chosen that path. I like to educate when and where I can, but I don't bring it up myself much. I really hate that so many boys in our area are circ'd. At the same time, once it's done its done. you can educate for the possible future boys - Then again, I'm like that with regards to religion too. I'm a Christian, but I don't wear shirts or carry my bible around. I try to just live what I believe, and go from there. But I grew up in a really pushy evangelical sort of church, and that's turned me off of being very pushy myself for that stuff.

I don't get why Sean would have changed Dylan's outfit. I don't know many people that use woolies and wear them out of the house. (maybe one?) As much as you pay for the things, I'd be getting as much use out of them as possible.

It's hard. The man needs to find his words and speak up!

I tend to write things out more than have conversations. I feel more rational that way, LOL.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Serial posting. Sorry. I've posted a lot. I won't be offended if you guys don't read it all.

The Marine Corps as a lifestyle thing, yes, I do think that dh sees it as a lifestyle. He absolutely sees himself as a Marine rather than just being in the Marine Corps. That's great for him. I'm glad that he has found something that he enjoys and that gives him so much fulfillment. I told him that. I am supporting him in that endeavor because I never have and I never will tell him to get out or I'm leaving. I would never take that away from him. But, if he says that his family is the most important thing to him, even more important than the Marine Corps. and being a Marine, and that lifestyle does not mesh with his family that he says he loves, then he needs to find a way to keep that lifestyle out of his family business. He choosing to keep both so he needs to find a way to make them both work. Otherwise, he does need to choose one or the other.

I don't think it's fair for him to suddenly tell me that he feels like I don't support him in his career. I am still here, aren't I? I told him and the recruiter before he even joined that I wasn't going to be much help to him in his career. The recruiter said to us that, if he was going to be an Officer, I was going to be very important to his advancement. I replied that he wouldn't be going very far, then, because I doubted I could be a good military spouse. I grew up being, not just not pro-military, but outright anti-military. My entire family was/is like that. My uncle refused to go to Vietnam as a conscientious objector. It shouldn't be a surprise to him that I'm not all gung ho about the Ball or any other Marine Corps stuff. I also don't see why he can't understand that I do less now because we have more kids. It was easier to go to more functions when we only had two kids and one was old enough to babysit and home most of the time. Plus, we lived in Hawaii so we could only go so far away before falling into the ocean.









I do go to things when I can. I didn't want to go to that holiday party for a couple of reasons. First, they called it a "holiday" party but it was really a Christmas party. I'm not Christian. I don't really celebrate Christmas the way that most do. I don't want my children bombarded with all of that stuff. I didn't want to go but DH had to go since he is sort of the figurehead of it all. He had to give some sort of welcome speech to everyone. So, I went and stood by his side and smiled and made small talk with people that I couldn't care less about and participated in the various activities, all while trying to keep track of my 3 boys because dh was working and couldn't really pay much attention to us. I have told him that I will go to all the family friendly functions that I can and will go to other things as he wants me to if we can find suitable childcare. But I don't support him.









I was a hippiefied, anti-war, anti-military, card carrying democratic atheist when we met and married. He was not a Marine. He was an accountant and part-time personal trainer. I was very open and honest and up front about who I am and the things I believe in and find important. He changed everything on me. I don't think he then has the right to tell me that I have to fit in with his new lifestyle (even though I do what I can).


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Only have a minute.

It seems like he's getting tired of your "agenda" so to speak, and doesn't really seem to support or otherwise endorse what you are passionate about. That can truly be hurtful and feel like he doesn't love you for who you are.

OTOH, this is who you are b/c this is your life right now. You are very entrenched in homebirth and bf'ing, and unschooling b/c this is your life, and of course you want to talk about it and educate others and explain your POV. And of course you will always be attached to these things in some sense.

What I like to do in these moments when I feel looked down on by DH or misunderstood about something, or unsupported is realize how short this season is. This is so stressful right now b/c my kids are young and I CARE about these things, and this is who I am. But in 10, 15 years, when my nursling is a teen, am I going to think I was silly for *for example* ending my marriage b/c my DH didn't want a homebirth shirt on our baby? Or b/c he didn't care to talk about extended bf'ing or unschooling? What is going to be important then and on the top of your priority list is going to be totally different when you no longer have a todder or baby.

I try to think of the big picture. I want this man to be in my life and be my partner when I'm past this stage in my life.

Sometimes it helps me to think about the vows I made and the promise I made to myself and to him in front of family and friends (and for those married religiously, in front of god) and remember love and marriage is about more than our current set of circumstances.

We are going to grow and fall in and out of love with our partners b/c we all grow at different paces. We can't possibly always be on the same page, book, or even shelf. But to honor that promise we have to look past those things and love regardless, and accept and even try to understand. And ask the same of them. B/c if they don't like who we are at any given time, that is fine, but a commitment made to another person should be honored. That's marriage.

Unless there is a deal breaker like abuse or something, of course. We all have our deal breakers.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> I was a hippiefied, anti-war, anti-military, card carrying democratic atheist when we met and married. He was not a Marine. He was an accountant and part-time personal trainer. I was very open and honest and up front about who I am and the things I believe in and find important. He changed everything on me. I don't think he then has the right to tell me that I have to fit in with his new lifestyle (even though I do what I can).


This is a huge eye opener to me. I didn't realize how much he changed on you. Do you consider this a deal breaker?

But then look even at your screen name. You chose that b/c you do support him and are on some level proud. You aren't a typical military wife but you are a supportive wife and an honest and thoughtful person, nonetheless. Don't devalue that just b/c you aren't able to be some (impossible) ideal.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> Only have a minute.
> 
> ...


Yes, I agree with all of this. It's not really about those little things. Those are just examples of the little things that he does that make me feel like I'm not really wanted here. He's grumpy and angry almost all the time when he's home. I don't want to live the rest of my life with a grumpy, angry person. I don't want to be somewhere I'm not wanted. If he wants me here, then he needs to act like it. If he doesn't want me here, then he needs to be honest about it so we can do something about it. KWIM?

If he's not really miserable and he doesn't want to be miserable, why does he act miserable all the time? I mean, he is angry! This all started because he was getting Dylan ready for bed and got out a fleece sleeper. I had already put a diaper and wool cover on him so he didn't need the fleece, which I reserve for use as a diaper cover when needed. So, I told him to use a regular cotton sleep instead of a fleece one. He got so angry with me for "telling him what to do." He got all huffy and started sort of tossing things around and being rough with Dylan.

I asked him what his problem was but he wouldn't tell me. Finally, after a lot of pushing from me, he said that I always insist that he do things my way. Well, um, no, not exactly. I have a reason why I do it that way that makes sense, I think. If we use the fleece sleepers whenever, we may end up without a suitable cover and then what?

I explained to him why I do it that way. It wasn't like I was saying that I wanted him to use the blue sleeper instead of the green one because it was Tuesday or because I like it better. It wasn't a personal preference thing. It was for a specific, practical reason. I asked him if that didn't make sense. I asked him if he had a reason for not doing it that way or another (better?) way of doing it. He had nothing. So, what is wrong with me telling him that because that's my system for making sure we have adequate night time diaper protection? I'm the one who does all the laundry. I'm the one who keeps track of all the diapers and covers and clothes. He doesn't even know where the stuff is even though I keep everything in the same places. If he wants to take over the job of organizing the diaper system, then he can tell me how to do it. Otherwise, follow the system I've set up unless you have a well-thought out reason to do it differently. KWIM?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> This is a huge eye opener to me. I didn't realize how much he changed on you. Do you consider this a deal breaker?
> But then look even at your screen name. You chose that b/c you do support him and are on some level proud. You aren't a typical military wife but you are a supportive wife and an honest and thoughtful person, nonetheless. Don't devalue that just b/c you aren't able to be some (impossible) ideal.


I don't consider it a deal breaker as long as he doesn't let it affect everything else in our lives. The thing is that he is letting it affect everything else. I am really feeling like he does not like me as a person. He doesn't value or appreciate anything I do. He thinks I do basically nothing all day because the house isn't spotless when he comes home. That's how he measures whether or not I've been productive. I do kind of consider possibly living the rest of my life with someone who doesn't want me around and is always angry at me a deal breaker. I don't want to live that way, angry and miserable. I want peace and love and happiness.

He uses the excuse that he's worried about his career and how people at work will think of him and treat him. That's not really a valid argument, though. He has already been selected for Major. He WILL be promoted. It's just a matter of time. That cannot be taken away unless he does something extremely grevious like get arrested for DUI or illegal drug possession or domestic violence or child molestation or something like that. A negative remark about his wife in a fit rep cannot cause him to lose his promotion at this point. And, since he has known from the time he joined that he may never make it to Lt. Colonel just because he may not have enough time in before retirement, that kind of negates his argument about a me affecting any future promotion. He always knew he'd absolutely not have time to make it past Lt. Colonel. That would be the end for him, either way.

So, really, nothing I could do or not do at this point would affect his career much. However, his grumpiness and anger affects everyone in our home in a negative way.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

OK, I'm going to play armchair marriage therapist but I'm not going to pull punches so feel free to tell me to buzz off!







I feel like there are a coupleof fundamental things going on. First is two opposite personalities. Your confrontational style is direct whereas his is indirect aka passive aggressive. Second, you are both asking each other to fight battles that you don't see as yours to fight. You are asking him to fight battles regarding AP, home birth, non-circing, unschooling, etc. He's asking you to fight the battle for ongoing promotion. I think you both need a paradigm shift that just because your partner can't or won't fight your battle is not a reflection of their love for you and your family. Third, your DH needs to find his voice in your family dynamic. He abdicates deciscions to you but then gets pissed when you "boss" him around. My DH does this too. It's a work in progress. What I have to do though is bite my tongue a lot when DH makes choices about stuff with the kids. Yeah, it creates more work for me in the shortterm. But it gives him a feeling of ownership as their father. Is it really worth the fight to tell him to put different pjs on D? For me personally, I only make a big deal out of making sure Ava's nighttime dipe is doubled so she doesn't wake in the middle of the covered in pee. Otherwise, I let it go.

The USMC thing is tough because it very much is a lifestyle and mindset. There's a reason for the saying "Once a Marine, always a Marine." In order for that military model to work, for people to blindly put themselves in danger and not ask questions, a certain level of brainwashing has to occur for it to work. That's hard to turn off IMO. And as a high ranking officer, he does have certain responsibilities. Is it possible that he thinks dressing Dylan in handknit pants gives the impression you guys are hurting for money? Even though we all know the actual cost of those pants? I do think you have some responsibility there though as well. Did you ask him why he chose a different outfit for the holiday party? Is it possible he didn't see the clothes you laid out? Would it have hurt less if he had said to you that he didn't think that outfit was appropriate for the venue and he wanted to choose something else?

I think a lot of all of our marriage struggles boil down to intent. Do we think our partners are making choices to deliberately hurt us? Or are they choosing to do or not do something to avoid perceived pain? I deal with someone on a regular basis that does occasionally make choices to specifically hurt my DH and I. Taking the kids on a trip 500 miles away during the ten days surrounding Ava's due date so they wouldn't be here to meet her when she was born is a good example. But for the most part, I don't think our partners are acting with malicious intent.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> OK, I'm going to play armchair marriage therapist but I'm not going to pull punches so feel free to tell me to buzz off!
> 
> ...


These are all excellent points. I totally agree about the brainwashing stuff. When we first got married we had a conversation about what we would do if one of us cheated on the other. I said I'd kick him to the curb so fast he wouldn't know what hit him. He said it would depend. Then he came back from Officer Candidate School (the equivalent of enlisted boot camp) and the subject came up again. His response then was, "Just remember, I'm a trained killer now." He was joking. He wasn't trying to threaten that he would actually kill anyone but it definitely did change his mindset about certain things.

I don't think that dh should fight any fight for me on anything I do. I don't understand why he feels the need to lie about me as if he's ashamed. That hurts me. I have told him all of this. All he says is that he just doesn't want to deal with it. I really don't see why it would ever be a fight for him. I, honestly, don't understand why anything that I do in my own personal life (as long as it isn't illegal) would matter at all to anyone he worked with or why it would have any real bearing on his career.

I read about other people's husbands doing and saying things about their wives breastfeeding and what not with pride. Not all Marines are brainwashed to the extent that dh seems to have been. I think it's more of a personality thing with him being so concerned about what others think, not challenging authority, and not speaking up about things.

Yes, he knew that I had picked out that outfit. I handed it right to him and asked him to put it on Dylan while I was in the shower. That's when he said, "Do you always have to advertise?" in a very nasty tone. And, yes, I did ask him why he didn't dress Dylan in it. He said that official Marine Corps functions are not an appropriate place for me to make a political statement. I agree but that wasn't an official Marine Corps. function. It was a family fun thing. What if it had been a beach BBQ? I would have dressed Dylan in a cloth swim diaper and almost certainly a t-shirt that said something about breastfeeding or co-sleeping or home birth. That's pretty much all I have.

As far as the knit pants, he just thinks they are goofy. They aren't like "regular" clothes. Saying and doing things like that make me feel like he doesn't appreciate what I consider to be a special skill that I have that I take pride in. I am proud that I breastfed all of my children and breastfeed as long as I do. I am proud that I have had 3 VBACs and 2 home births. I want other women to know that they can do the same thing if they want. Why would I hide those things from anyone? Why does dh feel like he has to lie about those things? They are a big part of who I am so that means he is basically lying about me.

I don't think that he does things to hurt me. I do think he doesn't do things to try to make a point.

An example, I was peeling potatoes. I have always had a garbage disposal and have always put potato peels in the garbage disposal. I've never had trouble with them clogging the disposal. DH saw me putting the peels in the disposal and told me not to because it would clog up the sink. I kept doing it because I don't like to put food waste in the trash and I didn't really think it would be a problem. The next morning the sink was clogged. What did dh do? He sat on the couch for at least 4 hours doing nothing but waiting for me to wake up so he could try to make me help him fix it just so he could shove my face in it. He left the sink nasty and crap all over the counters. He didn't really need my help. He wanted me to move all the stuff out from under the sink so he could get to the pipes. He could have easily done that himself, especially while all the kids were still asleep so no one would have to worry about them getting in the way or getting into dangerous things. He didn't, though, because he wanted to teach me a lesson. The only lesson he taught me is that he's very petty. If he wanted to make sure I understood that the potato peels clogged the sink, he could have just shown me the peels that he pulled out of the pipes.

That's just such a petty thing to do. Yes, I didn't listen to him when he said it would clog but I had never had that problem. No, I did not do it to purposely clog the pipes so he would have to clean them out. That's what he accused me of. They say you expect from others what you do yourself so maybe that is something he would have done so he assumed I did the same.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I know all of this sound very petty. It is petty and that's the problem. We stuck in this pettiness. I feel like I can't say anything to my dh without him getting angry but I don't know what else to do. I'm tired of feeling like he gives me no thought and does things that make my daily life more difficult without any care, especially when they are things that I've asked him to do or not do in the past. He gets mad at me for telling where something goes and how to use it but he doesn't make any effort to figure it out himself. What can I do? Just let it all go and be constantly running around fixing the things he has messed up?


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I forgot to say that I read a little on insurance companies not covering things when people leave the hospital AMA. From what I understand, the insurance companies can refuse to pay for medical treatment needed as a result of leaving AMA. However, they can't refuse to pay for the initial hospital services provided before leaving AMA.

Also, I did apologize for the potato peel thing after the fact. Maybe I should have listened to him initially but I certainly didn't purposely try to clog the sink. KWIM?


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

I think too you are both too proud to just cave and say to one another, "Hey. Enough. I'm sorry. I'm sorry I'm stuck on dumb things and I'm sorry it hurts you when I do XYZ. I'll try harder. Can you promise the same?"

I say this b/c we are coming thru something so similar. And it's HARD to just surrender and be vulnerable, and WORK on a marriage.

You honestly seem sad b/c right now he doesn't seem to like who you are, let alone love you for who you are. And it doesn't sound like right now you like him for who he is, either. And you aren't working as a team. He seems always trying to prove a point, to make you see how you've messed up (in his mind), and you seem to be indifferent to what concerns him. Both of you can try to solve these issues.

It's hard especially when you don't like the person. I thought the same things. Do I even WANT to be around him in 10, 15 years? I can't stand him right now. Why bother?

But it can change if you both work. I'm seeing it happen in front of me.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> I think too you are both too proud to just cave and say to one another, "Hey. Enough. I'm sorry. I'm sorry I'm stuck on dumb things and I'm sorry it hurts you when I do XYZ. I'll try harder. Can you promise the same?"


This is pretty much what I said to him the other night. We either need to change what we are doing or get out. We can't continue to live like this. Get over all these silly things, stop holding grudges, and get back to what matters. He kind of grunted and shrugged and agreed but then didn't talk anymore about how we could do that.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> You honestly seem sad b/c right now he doesn't seem to like who you are, let alone love you for who you are. And it doesn't sound like right now you like him for who he is, either. And you aren't working as a team. He seems always trying to prove a point, to make you see how you've messed up (in his mind), and you seem to be indifferent to what concerns him. Both of you can try to solve these issues.
> 
> ...


Yes, I am sad. I'm worn out. I'm tired of trying to make things better and feeling like I'm not getting any reciprocation. I do think about how long I have until I could leave the kids home by themselves if I had to leave and go back to work. I think maybe 7 or 8 more years. Then Ethan will be 16, Kellen will 12 and Dylan will be 8. Depending on how they are, it could work and we could still homeschool. That's crazy, isn't it?


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

So, let's assume Sean's behavior isn't going to change. What can I do to make things better for me? A few years ago it was easy for me to let things go and go on about my business. I can't seem to do that anymore. Nothing I do seems to help. If anything, it makes things worse. I've even tried just pretending in my head that we are nothing more than roommates and how he feels about me doesn't matter. It does matter, though, so that didn't last long. I can't pretend like his grumpiness doesn't bother me anymore and I can't sit back and let him act mean toward the kids. Like I said before, I want peace and happiness and love in my home. I want my kids to feel safe and loved and accepted. It's obvious that they don't feel that way with their dad because he's annoyed most of the time and rarely has anything nice or positive to say to anyone.

Oh, I meant to respond to the comment about my screen name. I chose that name not because I am proud of being a Marine wife. I chose that name because I was afraid that most of the people on this site would be anti-military and I wanted to give everyone a heads up of where I was coming from before things got nasty.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Good question. I was thinking along those same lines. You can't assume another grownup is going to change so what can you do to contribute to peace in your family and/or minimize the stress? Can you find some compromises? Can you respect his request to not dress D in activist shirts for events where there are a lot of Marines, even if you don't understand the issue? Can you take 15 mins at the end of the day and do a quick pickup just because you know it would help him feel better when he comes in the door? Can you ignore how he chooses to do certain things with the kids, even if they are wrong or stupid, as long as it isn't endangering them? I know that seems like it's just you compromising but the fact is you can only control your choices and your responses.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I can and have started doing most of those things. I took over cooking dinner most nights because he was getting so stressed about it. I have been trying to pick things up at least a little right before or right after he gets home. He doesn't understand that it's a continuous job, though. The house is not going to ever be completely picked up until all the kids move out.

I've been trying not to interfere too much between him and the kids. It's hard, though, because I consider a lot of the things as harmful to the kids. They may not be physically harmful but they are emotionally and psychologically harmful and those scars can sometimes be worse than physical scars. I mean, really, the scars left from physical abuse are mostly emotional and pyschological.

I know how that works because I was spanked by my father regularly but never by my mother. My mother, however, was and is a very difficult person. She's very good at making others around her feel inadequate. I have a lot more issues as an adult from and with my mother than from or with my father.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Sorry mama. That type of behavior would be a big reason for me to do everything I could to make it work. What I've learned is that if a parent is willing to emotionally and verbally abuse their children, it's not going to stop if the parents are no longer together. It just means the other parent is not there to intervene or act as a buffer.

Ava picked up some kind of bug but thankfully it only lasted 24 hrs. She's still recovering from all the lack of sleep but she's loving all the gifts!


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> Sorry mama. That type of behavior would be a big reason for me to do everything I could to make it work. What I've learned is that if a parent is willing to emotionally and verbally abuse their children, it's not going to stop if the parents are no longer together. It just means the other parent is not there to intervene or act as a buffer.
> Ava picked up some kind of bug but thankfully it only lasted 24 hrs. She's still recovering from all the lack of sleep but she's loving all the gifts!


Again, that's such a good point, Lauri. Such a good point.

Glad she's already feeling better!!

We are still working thru runny noses and what not here. I'm still on my abx and feeling better, but not completely there yet. Looking fwd to kicking the germs for good!!!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> Sorry mama. That type of behavior would be a big reason for me to do everything I could to make it work. What I've learned is that if a parent is willing to emotionally and verbally abuse their children, it's not going to stop if the parents are no longer together. It just means the other parent is not there to intervene or act as a buffer.


Yes, that is an excellent point and one that comes up in my unschooling discussion group a lot. I don't think what Sean does is abusive. He doesn't yell or call the boys names or threaten them with harsh punishments or anything like that. He just tries to control them too much, I think. He tells them No too much and doesn't say Yes enough. I guess maybe I overreact to it.

It's very typical, mainstream parenting control. "If you don't eat 5 bites of chicken, you can't have ice cream." "No, I'm not going to buy you another toy because we can't afford it but I am going to buy myself these $150 shoes." It's holding the children to a different standard and at a different level than adults. The children are below the adults. I don't like that kind of attitude. I think it can be harmful to kids if they are made to feel that they are at the bottom of the totem pole, that their wants are less important than an adult's just because they are children.

I try to get DH to think about why he does those things. Is there a real, rational, positive reason for it or is it just because that's what he knows or sees everyone else do? He doesn't have an answer, which tells me that he hasn't thought about it. He just goes along with the majority of what he sees because that's what has always been done. If you aren't going to think about it, then you don't get to decide, especially if your decisions make everyone else unhappy for no real reason. KWIM?

I'm glad Ava is feeling better. We all have nasty coughs. I think I might be allergic to the Christmas tree.







I've been coughing so much and so hard that I have to wear pads because I keep peeing on myself. :irk I don't know what to do about that.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> I try to get DH to think about why he does those things. Is there a real, rational, positive reason for it or is it just because that's what he knows or sees everyone else do? He doesn't have an answer, which tells me that he hasn't thought about it. He just goes along with the majority of what he sees because that's what has always been done. If you aren't going to think about it, then you don't get to decide, especially if your decisions make everyone else unhappy for no real reason. KWIM?


This is a very good point and something my DH and I have been discussing for a while because I feel like his default is "No" as well. I've really gotten to the point with the kids that unless they are harming themselves or someone else or doing something illegal, I don't really care. He views that somewhat as "permissive" parenting. I view it as choosing my battles. Ava standing in the chair is a good one. She wants to do it. I don't know why. Maybe because she's short and it's uncomfortable for her to sit on her bottom. I don't know. I don't care. I'm not going to have a battle of wills with her to get her to sit in the chair. I'm not going to withhold food from her until she sits in the chair. I will push the chair against the wall and position my body to minimize the risk of her falling from the chair. He wants to force her to sit in the chair. I try not to intervene but I think that type of stuff does affect his relationship with her in the long run.

I need to get my inlaws trained to the idea of little ones again. We went over to my SIL's house yesterday. There hasn't been a small one running around for many years as DSS 12 was the youngest until Ava was born. We had been there for a while and Ava and I had been in the living room when we walked in to the family room. Ava stopped, put up her hand and said "hot" which is what she does around a fire or the oven. I looked over at the fireplace and someone had turned on the gas fireplace but had not placed the shield back so it was just open to the room. If Ava had tripped, she could have fallen right on top of lit logs.







Thank goodness she has the memory of an elephant and we've been practicing with the fake fireplace video at my office that fires are hot and to stay away from them.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> I'm glad Ava is feeling better. We all have nasty coughs. I think I might be allergic to the Christmas tree.
> 
> ...


I think our christmas tree is causing some allergy issues as well. I need to take it down this week. I haven't been getting probiotics in Ava but I need to start again because she is swinging between constipation and loose BMs.

One of my SILs gave Ava some cash for Christmas so I'm going to look in to signing her up for a toddler tumbling class that should start in a few weeks. We need something physical to do that's indoors until the weather warms up and she's really been enjoying doing flips and sort of "rough-housing" on the bed so I think she'll like that. It's 8 weeks I believe.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> I try not to intervene but I think that type of stuff does affect his relationship with her in the long run.


Yes, that's what I meant by harmful. It has a negative effect on their relationship. He says No even when his answer is Yes. It's very strange. He says, "Well, no, here you go."









The other thing is that dh always sounds annoyed or aggravated whenever they ask for anything. His response is always, *big sigh*, sometimes a roll of the eyes, a humph and a, "What do you want?!" It's not nice. He doesn't enjoy taking care of his kids. it feels like he's annoyed just by their presence, which makes me angry and hurt and upset and then I don't like him much.

That is scary about the fire. We have never even hooked ours up to a gas tank because I have yet to find a safe cover for the fireplace.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> Yes, that's what I meant by harmful. It has a negative effect on their relationship. He says No even when his answer is Yes. It's very strange. He says, "Well, no, here you go."
> 
> ...


I try to disengage my feelings from the situation because technically, it's between DH and the child. I'm just a bystander. And it may be more damaging to the child to see Mom as "always right" or "always correcting" Dad than it is to be told "no" even though the answer is "yes". I'm not saying it is more damaging, I'm just saying that's another possibility. But it is hurtful when it feels like your partner doesn't "like" your children. That was definitely my feeling when it seemed like DH was trying to find an excuse to be out of the house on Christmas Eve. Like, come on. The kids aren't going to remember if there was enough money for five presents vs four presents but they will remember that Dad was never around on holidays. At least that's my opinion. Other parents may have different opinions. So that's why I try to remove my feelings because it may not be what the kids are feeling.

The scary thing about that fireplace was there wasn't even a glass partition. At my mom's house, her gas fireplace has a glass divider. It would suck if Ava fell in to it because the glass gets hot but at least it would just be a slight burn. At my SIL's, there's no glass so she would fall right in to the fire. Yikes!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

It's so hard for me to detach myself when my kids are obviously hurt. What do you do when they come to crying because Dad wouldn't let them do something that you think it's perfectly fine or at least not a problem? I can't just tell them too bad because that's what their dad said. Then it seems to them that I am not caring for them, either. I am not protecting them. I don't care that they are hurt. They need at least one parent who does care all the time, I think.

Oh, and I try not to talk to dh about those things in front of the kids. I try to talk him about the stuff later, unless it's something that seems to be really pressing. Then I might ask why it's such a big deal. The thing is that dh gets angry when I do that, I think because he doesn't know why. It was just a knee jerk reaction on his part without any thought. I wish he'd be more present and mindful.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> It's so hard for me to detach myself when my kids are obviously hurt. What do you do when they come to crying because Dad wouldn't let them do something that you think it's perfectly fine or at least not a problem? I can't just tell them too bad because that's what their dad said. Then it seems to them that I am not caring for them, either. I am not protecting them. I don't care that they are hurt. They need at least one parent who does care all the time, I think.


My big kids don't really cry anymore about stuff like that but if they express their displeasure somehow (usually it's anger, not sadness), I try to empathize but gently remind them that it was Dad's decision and while we (me and the child) may not agree with or understand the reasoning, he very well may have a good reason. If it's something that is really odd, I will help the child brainstorm possible solutions and encourage them to speak directly with their Dad to come up with an alternative. My DH isn't downright unreasonable but there may be more information he needs to make a better decision or just something he's not considering. I do think it is important, even at a young age, to encourage children to speak up to grownups, albeit respectfully, if they disagree with a decision. But that needs to be between the child and that other grownup. I can support the child but that's their battle to fight, so to speak.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

I think it's important to remove yourself as the referee between your children and your husband. (I'm saying this in general, not necessarily directed at you MW). He is their parent too and a grownup who is hopefully making decisions with their best interest in mind.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> I think it's important to remove yourself as the referee between your children and your husband. (I'm saying this in general, not necessarily directed at you MW). He is their parent too and a grownup who is hopefully making decisions with their best interest in mind.


Another excellent point. It's just so hard to see my children cry and do nothing.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> My big kids don't really cry anymore about stuff like that


Ethan doesn't usually cry much initially. He usually gets angry, which makes DH dig in his heels more. He doesn't respond well to anger from others. He has difficulty with anger in general. Whenever I talk to Ethan about things and try to empathize, he usually ends up crying.

Kellen is still young enough that he cries more quickly but he's moving more and more toward the stomping off and pouting phase. When he gets like that he doesn't want anyone to talk to him or be near him or anything. Ryan was like that. When he got hurt or angry he would not let me comfort him at all. He wanted to be left alone.

I think it's hard for me to see DH as a grown up when I don't see him really thinking about anything, ya know. Sometimes he acts more like a child than the children do. If he would just read some and think some and talk to me about things, maybe I could trust him more.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> Another excellent point. It's just so hard to see my children cry and do nothing.
> Ethan doesn't usually cry much initially. He usually gets angry, which makes DH dig in his heels more. He doesn't respond well to anger from others. He has difficulty with anger in general. Whenever I talk to Ethan about things and try to empathize, he usually ends up crying.
> ...


But giving them a hug, listening and offering possible solutions (if needed) is doing something. Perhaps use this as a learning opportunity. Remove your opinions about what your DH should or should not be doing and instead focus on the child in front of you. This is prime learning time for gentle conflict resolution. Disagreeing without being disagreeable and all that jazz. What tools can you give your child today that would help them not just in dealing with their Dad if they disagree with his choice for them or his decision but in also dealing with other people besides you? It may take longer in the short term but giving Ethan the tools to say something like "Dad, before you serve my food, can I make a request? I'd like my sauce and pasta separate." instead of just swooping in and making him a new plate will give him a life lesson that he can hopefully reuse.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> But giving them a hug, listening and offering possible solutions (if needed) is doing something. Perhaps use this as a learning opportunity. Remove your opinions about what your DH should or should not be doing and instead focus on the child in front of you. This is prime learning time for gentle conflict resolution. Disagreeing without being disagreeable and all that jazz. What tools can you give your child today that would help them not just in dealing with their Dad if they disagree with his choice for them or his decision but in also dealing with other people besides you? It may take longer in the short term but giving Ethan the tools to say something like "Dad, before you serve my food, can I make a request? I'd like my sauce and pasta separate." instead of just swooping in and making him a new plate will give him a life lesson that he can hopefully reuse.


Are you sure you're not a marriage therapist?









I guess I feel like I should fix it for them if I can. Take away their pain. I didn't have to deal with any of this when Ryan was young because it was just us until he 9. And then with dh being a new stepparent he defaulted to me all the time. This is probably better, though. It allows dh to save face and, hopefully, helps the kids learn how to work with their dad more so it doesn't seem like it's us against him.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> Are you sure you're not a marriage therapist?
> 
> ...


My DH would tell you most definitely NO!







I'm only good at throwing this stuff out because I'm working on it. Every.Single.Day. Historically, the women in my family just do everything with little to no input from the men. But that does a disservice not only to your DH but to your kids as well. It devalues him in their eyes. Only Mom can do things right. Only Mom can solve the problems. And then everyone gets in this vicious cycle. It irks me that my house is mostly destroyed when I get home after work and DH has been with the kids but you know what? It's ok. My world is not going to shatter because DH didn't load and unload the dishwasher. And fighting about it isn't going to fix the issue either. I have to remind myself of that a lot.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I really have no experience because my parents divorced when I was 4yo. I really only had my mother doing everything so I don't know what men are supposed to do in a marriage and family. It's always easier for me to tell others what seems like a good idea or a better way of doing things than actually doing them myself. I'm always working at it. I wish I could get to a point where I didn't feel like I was just going in circles with dh.

I find it funny when my dh has been with the kids all day and the house is a wreck. I want to say, "See. It's not so easy as you think to do everything with the kids always underfoot, is it?"


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I keep forgetting to mention that I think I'm also dealing with some post-deployment, post-combat issues. I bought a book for my Kindle, _Taming the Fire Within_. It's about post-combat stress rather than PTSD. I just skimmed it the other day. The section on warriors having to turn off their emotions really struck me. I think that's what has happened with dh. He has been deployed and in combat so many times in rapid succession that he has had to turn off his emotions but not been home long enough to figure out how to turn them back on. Now he's kind of stuck with them off. He's here and he cares (I guess, or else why would he still be here?) but he's not connected emotionally. The only emotion he expresses is anger. Anger is a secondary emotion so there is something before/under that but he won't let it up or out. I showed him the book because I thought we both could read it. He glanced at it, humphed and tossed the Kindle back at me.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> My DH would tell you most definitely NO!
> 
> ...


This caught my eye b/c it's true for us as well. My MIL does everything for everyone and for the house, and nobody really values what my FIL does. he's always angry b/c nobody seems to care what he has done or gotten done. He does throw money at things b/c at this point I think he has given up on actually doing anything for anyone.

And Chris defaults to me for everything, no matter how often I remind him he can take control. I changed Finn's diaper last night and I was like, Oh, buddy you need a bath. I went to run the water and Chris said, oh yeah I noticed earlier he stunk. I thought about this for awhile. Later I said, does it just not dawn on you to give him a bath, or do you think I should be the only one to do it? He thought and said it doesn't dawn on him. That it would be too difficult.

Even Nora over heard and she said baths weren't difficult!









The other thing he never does b/c he gets scared is take both kids out somewhere together. It's not always easy for me, especially if they are behaving crazy, but I do it all the time and it's not difficult. It can be tough to manage at moments but you just have to reel them in. Plus Nora is really helpful out and about. The only thing that is tough is Finn running off, and that's just age appropriate. But still, DH must think it's next to impossible.
Right now it might be impossible since Nora won't let him take her anywhere. But that's besides the point. Or is it? Hmm.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> I keep forgetting to mention that I think I'm also dealing with some post-deployment, post-combat issues. I bought a book for my Kindle, _Taming the Fire Within_. It's about post-combat stress rather than PTSD. I just skimmed it the other day. The section on warriors having to turn off their emotions really struck me. I think that's what has happened with dh. He has been deployed and in combat so many times in rapid succession that he has had to turn off his emotions but not been home long enough to figure out how to turn them back on. Now he's kind of stuck with them off. He's here and he cares (I guess, or else why would he still be here?) but he's not connected emotionally. The only emotion he expresses is anger. Anger is a secondary emotion so there is something before/under that but he won't let it up or out. I showed him the book because I thought we both could read it. He glanced at it, humphed and tossed the Kindle back at me.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

MW - no advice - just hugs - I really hope you can go to a counselor or chaplain or something. would Sean be willing to do something like this: http://www.lejeune.usmc.mil/mcb/carolina_living_chaplainscorner01102008.asp

I don't know how to access a schedule or anything. Also the CREDO marriage retreats are awesome (so I've been told) but involve a weekend away, and you and Dylan are probably not ready for that yet.

DH tries really hard to clean when I'm gone to work. I appreciate it, but I really don't expect him to clean while I'm gone. I am happy so long as the kids are happy when I'm back. But I'm not going to tell him not to clean either. LOL

In other news. Norah has a cold. runny nose, I think a sore throat, and some coughing. She doesn't seem croupy, isn't running a fever, she's just miserabe  Gabe is making good strides with potty training. He's still not super good at telling us when he "needs" to go. But maybe that's because he just takes the opportunities as they're offered? IDK. And he did poop in the toilet twice yesterday - I think it was just good timing + a touch of diarrhea. but hey! less poopy diapers!

Happy New Year's Eve!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Yay for Gabe using the toilet!
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, I've been trying to go to a CREDO marriage retreat for years. We haven't been able to because either dh isn't home or I have a nursling. One of these days...Although, the religious aspect bothers me a bit. As an atheist, anything pertaining to god just isn't going to work for me. It doesn't matter if it's non-denominational. I have been told that how heavy the religion is used depends on the particular Chaplain running the retreat or seminar at any particular time. That could be tricky for me.

I can't even go to the seminars because they last a full day and Dylan is still nursing every few hours. He probably would be ok for up to 6 hours but I don't want to leave him that long because that's a step toward weaning that I'm not ready to take. I could do it when he's 2 but by then dh will most likely be in Virginia and the rest of us will still be here in NC.

Sean didn't know about the individual retreats and seminars. I mentioned them to him. He kind of grunted but didn't say anything about going by himself. I'll probably have to tell him to go or he won't.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> he's always angry b/c nobody seems to care what he has done or gotten done.


I have noticed this with the boys sometimes. I've been trying to make an effort to comment when dh does something.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> And Chris defaults to me for everything, no matter how often I remind him he can take control. I changed Finn's diaper last night and I was like, Oh, buddy you need a bath. I went to run the water and Chris said, oh yeah I noticed earlier he stunk. I thought about this for awhile. Later I said, does it just not dawn on you to give him a bath, or do you think I should be the only one to do it? He thought and said it doesn't dawn on him. That it would be too difficult.


Sean does this sort of thing and I've asked him the same thing. He'll do just about anything if I ask him but he doesn't seem to think of it on his own. That starts to annoy me because it feels like he's not really active in our daily family life. Even dinner that he says he wants to cook most night, he'll sit and think about it, I guess, until it gets so late that everyone is very hungry and whiny and grumpy and then gets aggravated that everyone is like that. The only way to get dinner at a reasonable time is for me to tell him to get up and start making it. He won't say anything to me about it but when I bring it up, he says, "Oh, yeah, I've been thinking about that," or, "I've been wondering what to do/make." Um, why didn't you say something two hours ago?


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

The marriage retreat my parents attended in Okinawa is where I first heard about the Love Languages book. Having not read it myself (but having got the gist) - if you are probably OK with that level of religious stuff, you may be fine. Like any kind of group therapy, take what works and leave the rest. I went to a Personal Growth Retreat once (my parents were in charge of the kitchen/food for them in Okinawa for a while) . . . I liked it. It was a lot of internal processing more than anything. it was mostly people led. Most were dealing with grief. I enjoyed the time to sit on a secluded beach by myself and think. But I love the ocean. It didn't *seem* very religious to me. But then, being a more religious sort of person myself, it may not of occured to me be bothered by that aspect.

How long will Sean be in Virginia for? will you stay in NC, or go stay up there nearby?

In the meantime, any way the two of you can have some regular time to just talk and enjoy eachother, away from the kids? It seems the more kids you have, the harder it is to accomplish that.

In happy news - I love buying stuff for the new baby! only little stuff here and there, but it's how I nest. It's frustrating, bc I don't know what the weather will be like. March is a strange month.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Buying baby stuff is so fun!
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> The marriage retreat my parents attended in Okinawa is where I first heard about the Love Languages book. Having not read it myself (but having got the gist) - if you are probably OK with that level of religious stuff, you may be fine. Like any kind of group therapy, take what works and leave the rest. I went to a Personal Growth Retreat once (my parents were in charge of the kitchen/food for them in Okinawa for a while) . . . I liked it. It was a lot of internal processing more than anything. it was mostly people led. Most were dealing with grief. I enjoyed the time to sit on a secluded beach by myself and think. But I love the ocean. It didn't *seem* very religious to me. But then, being a more religious sort of person myself, it may not of occured to me be bothered by that aspect.
> 
> ...


I don't think the Love Languages book is religious. It's been years since I read it so maybe I forgot some parts but I don't remember anything overtly religious. I think that may be where the Chaplain running the retreat added his or her own twist to it.

It's kind of hard to take what you need and leave the rest if the entire thing is set up around a god that you don't believe in at all. That's the difference between being atheist and anything else. Maybe if I were Episcopalian and the Chaplain was Catholic, I could do that, but it doesn't really work that way if it's all based on something that I don't believe exists in any way, shape or form. Most religious people can't get that, I think, because they just can't grasp that I don't believe in any of it. Kind of like being called a satanist or devil worshiper for being atheist. Um, that's kind of impossible since satan can't exist without god.

My DH doesn't understand why I get bothered by the Chaplain doing an invocation at every military function. That goes against the Constitution and infringes of my and any other atheist or even most non-Christians' constitutional rights. He doesn't see what the problem is but he is a white, male Christian so he's never really had to consider things like that personally.

Right now, as it stands with the house, if he gets sent to Virginia, it will be for at least a year and maybe as much as 3 years. The kids and I will have to stay in our house because we can't sell or rent it for the price we owe/pay right now. I'm still trying to figure something out with that. Again, dh hasn't done anything but grunt and complain about it. He says I'm not supporting him because I tell him I'll have to stay here but he hasn't done anything to try to get the house situation solved.

I finally got him to agree to refinance today even though I've been asking him to look into it for at least 2 years now. Even with that I am the one who had to call the credit union to put in the application. Today was the last day to apply for their special refi program with reduced fees and increased loan amounts. He insisted he had to shave before he called in case he had to go somewhere even though I told him they didn't have any local loan officers here. (At first, he was going to waste time going to the credit union even though I told him repeatedly to call first because I was pretty sure he couldn't get anything done at the credit union. But why would he listen to me about any of that just because I'm the one who went through the whole process by myself 6 years ago while he was deployed.







)

We may actually be able to start going on regular dates. My new friend who recently moved practically across the street from me from WV said she'd watch my kids if we ever wanted to do anything. Her kids are always over here and stay a lot while she runs errands so I don't feel so bad about asking her to keep mine for a date night a few times a month.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

I can see where you are coming from re: religious things - what I meant by take what you can - is if the chaplain can give you tips on communication and respect, and all that, those don't really involve religion, unless he says pray together (in which case, leave out that part). Shoot, we are religious, and we don't pray together. Though DH prefers to be called spiritual.

My main issue with invocations is that they are freaking boring. They are traditional though. FWIW - all it would take is enough atheists or pagan service members to complain, and they would have to stop, I'd think. most people just don't feel it's a big enough deal to get worked up about, would be my guess.

Hooray for refinancing and date nights!

I hope if/when he goes to VA you can visit regularly. it sucks to be separated so much.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> I can see where you are coming from re: religious things - what I meant by take what you can - is if the chaplain can give you tips on communication and respect, and all that, those don't really involve religion, unless he says pray together (in which case, leave out that part). Shoot, we are religious, and we don't pray together. Though DH prefers to be called spiritual.
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's why I said it really depends on the particular Chaplain who happens to be running the retreat that we might go to. It's kind of hit or miss on who's running it. I don't know anything about any of the Chaplains or the particular denominations as far as which ones are more fundamentalist and which are not. Sean doesn't really know any of them so he can't say, either. And, then there's the issue of them coming and going so often that the person you get to know this week might be gone next week.

That's what happened when I went to talk to that Chaplain before. It turned out that Sean was sort of part of that unit still but kind of not. Then he was deploying so he could talk to a Chaplain in theatre but it wasn't the same person that had been referred to me. When he came back, new unit, new Chaplain but now that Chaplain is gone and there is another new one. It's kind of hard to feel comfortable discussing very personal issues with someone when you don't really know anything about them and you don't know how long they are going to be around. It's frustrating.

I agree that if enough people complained about the invocations in each unit, they would probably have to stop. I've not run into anyone else who understands my POV on them, much less agrees with me. Many religious people are so arrogant that they like to use that adage, "There are not atheists in foxholes." They refuse to accept that there are people who don't believe even when facing death.







I used to get an atheist newsletter that spotlighted one military atheist in every newsletter. I stopped getting the newsletter because it was so negative. It seemed to be mostly about belittling religion and religious people. I don't need to do that.

It's close enough that he might be able to come home most weekends but only for a day or so. I think the cost of gas (especially since he insists on driving huge, gas guzzling trucks) might be too much.

Anyway, we are supposed to drive to Raleigh today to see my stepsister, her husband and my dad. It's 10 am and we're still waiting for the boys, including Dylan, to wake up. I may have to go rouse them.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

I hope you had a safe drive to Raleigh and a good visit with your family.

It's funny, WRT chaplains, because ones I expected to be fundamentalist-ish (seventh day adventist) I liked rather alot - and didn't disagree with very much. And some others, I didn't. I think they are expected to generally deal with the Marine population at large, and can't - or aren't supposed to - push an agenda. Some do better with this than others, of course. In regards to the constant changing of the guard, so to speak, that's frustrating. It's one reason I really dislike the on-base health care. The doctors and staff are all military and of course will rotate and change with no warning. It's hard to develop a good working relationship. Maybe that's why I've never bothered as a civilian? LOL

New Years was good, nothing really exciting. Back to work today, and officially in single digit countdown. - 9 weeks left, as of today!


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> New Years was good, nothing really exciting. Back to work today, and officially in single digit countdown. - 9 weeks left, as of today!










How is this even POSSIBLE!! But yayyy!!

I would really like to go to counseling with Chris but I'm worried they'll tell me some of my issues with sex are b/c I'm nursing. I really don't want to hear that I should wean Finn. That should be my decision and Finn's. I had this huge talk with Chris the other night that part of me just feels so touched by the end of the day I really don't want anyone else tugging at me, but I don't think that's completely true. I like sexual touch but I loathe a needy one. I think that's where my repulsion for intimacy is coming from. And nfn but DH comes across so needy it isn't attractive. How can we work on this? Any ideas? I feel like the pressure is on me now to really fix things in this dept b/c he's had a few tantrums over not having sex often enough. It's a fight every time I'm not in the mood.

Anyway, have fun on your trip MW!

I'm thinking about re-joining WW today. They have a new plan and I need all the help I can get. I've gained so much and am really going to try hard to eat right, and exercise. The treadmill is calling my name as I type!

BBL!


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Carrie: I mean, some of it MIGHT be nursing. That's just the truth - however - if stuff needs to be fixed before you and Finn are ready to wean, then I guess it just has to be pushed through until that day comes?

Re: needy touch - OMG - yes, this makes me feel resentful. DH isn't like that often, but why would anyone want to have sex with a needy, grouchy person? The best I can figure out to do, is try to maintain a level of intimacy that nips that in the bud - but stuff happens, I get tired, and well. you know. I am still shocked that 7 years in, 2 and 3/4 kids later, we are having more sex than we have ever had. I can't explain it, but it's a good thing. What I find hard to do is to remember to take opportunities as they present themselves - it surprises and pleases DH that I'm at least THINKING about sex, even if sometimes we aren't able to take advantage of the opportunities.

I don't know if it would help Chris to know that you acknowledge things aren't like they used to be or maybe could or should be, and you want them to improve - that you aren't satisfied with the status quo? but maybe now isn't the best time for him to be needy - you have enough people needing you during the day, the last thing you need is another at night. Explain that maybe if some of your non-sexual needs were met (getting kids in bed earlier, allowing you decompression time, etc) you might be able to meet some of his sexual ones? IDK. That's all I can think of.

And WeightWatchers - if it works for you, go for it! DH wants to go low-carb again. . . I'm not exactly against it, but I'm not all for it either. Especially as we live and eat with my parents so often, there is no way all of us are going low carb with him. Honestly eating that much meat and veg gets expensive, not to mention making and buying things for separate meals. But he wants to do it, so I'll watch


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> Carrie: I mean, some of it MIGHT be nursing. That's just the truth - however - if stuff needs to be fixed before you and Finn are ready to wean, then I guess it just has to be pushed through until that day comes?


It might be, but my honest feeling is that this is the season of life I'm in now, and DH needs to realize that. I mean, we have all our lives to have sex but Finn will only be nursing for a short time. You know? I know you know.

Today he's in NYC all day and it's nice to be able to breathe. It's overwhelming and smothering to have him around all the time.

Finn took an EPIC 3+ hour nap so I got in a good run, cleaned up, unloaded a ton of groceries, and am working on laundry too. Feels nice to get back into the swing of things!

Low carb seems no fun!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> It might be, but my honest feeling is that this is the season of life I'm in now, and DH needs to realize that. I mean, we have all our lives to have sex but Finn will only be nursing for a short time. You know? I know you know.


ITA! If he's putting pressure on you (guilt trip?), he has an issue that he needs to deal with. That is on him, not you. I mean, even if you both need to work on being more intimate, neither one of you should be putting a guilt trip on the other just as neither one of you should be totally pushing the other away. Breastfeeding may put a bit of a damper on your sex drive but it shouldn't completely squash it.

A big thing with me is that I need to feel connected and intimate in other ways before I am comfortable having sex. DH and I go through this really awkward time right after he comes back from a deployment because of that. There's this sort of pressure on both of us to hurry up and jump in bed together because everyone around us is talking about how they can't wait to have sex with their partners again. But it's kind of weird for both of us at first, I think. If I feel like he is putting pressure on me to have sex, I get completely turned off and don't want to have anything to do with him. So, the last time he came home, he didn't do anything for months and I was left wondering if he ever would. Do you remember that?









I worry sometimes that a counselor might give me a hard time about AP or breastfeeding or unschooling. Most don't understand any of that. They are very mainstream and I have found that a lot of the mainstream "expert" advice on marriage relationships and child discipline are way off from what I do or agree with or would ever do. Meanwhile, my dh doesn't think anything is wrong with any of it. It's all just personal preference.

What I would do is interview the counselor yourself before going with your DH. It's common to interview therapists and have to see a few before you find one that clicks with you. It can be frustrating and annoying but that really can't be avoided if you want to find someone who can really help you. I have had more luck with licensed clinical social workers (LCSW) rather than psychologists or therapists or even counselors. I'm not sure why that would make a difference but it really does seem to. Psychologists are more into the academic workings of the psyche and past experiences that may be influencing how you are behaving now, I think, whereas social workers are more into real life relationships and situations and finding ways to change how you think and what you do now to make things more positive. Anyone who practices cognitive behavioral therapy would probably be good. They focus on helping you change the way you think so that you can change the way you feel. The other thing to do is stand your ground about how breastfeeding is beneficial and arm yourself with documentation if needed. A good therapist should pick up on the fact that that is important to you and not something you will compromise on.

All of that being said, you know my issues with my marriage so I may not be the best person to take advice on about that.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

i thought of something else wrt sex. even without breastfeeding a woman's (female's) desire is regulated by her cycle, which is regulated by hormones. it's cyclic, unlike men's, which actually lends some credence to "sister wives". it's perfectly natural and normal for a woman to be interested in sex only during her fertile period. Otherwise, there's really not much point in expending all of that time and energy. You see it all the time with wild animals. The females push away and sometimes even fight males to death to refuse sex because they aren't fertile. The only time it is evolutionarily and physiologically economical for a female to engage in sex is when she is fertile. Otherwise, it's a waste of time and energy and possibly dangerous from a female perspective. Males are the opposite. They can potentially produce offspring continuously so they are almost always ready for sex. It's very profitable for them to have as much sex as often and with as many different females as possible to ensure passing on their genetic material.

Maybe Chris would understand and accept that explanation.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

He does understand that explanation, he gets that totally. He's never taken issue with that aspect. I mean, when I'm fertile I initiate when I can/want to, and honestly those are the few days out of the month we both are in sync in terms of desire.

But he wants more than that. I just don't know if I can EVER be able/willing to give him all he needs.

And Chris doesn't think nursing has that much of an effect on my drive. He says it's a nonissue and would never think weaning is the answer. He thinks it's something else. I'm sleeping enough now, so that can't be it. I'm taking vit D for depression and it's helping. I'm exercising, eating right.

Can thyroid issues throw it off?

I just don't know or understand why I'm completely uninterested.

We argue and all that, and yes we do have other issues, but we're working on them so I don't see how that could be it.

I'm attracted to him.

I just have no real idea what it's about.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

akind1, wow! Your pregnancy is flying by! At least for us bystanders! There are so many mamas in the July 11 DDC that are either pregnant or starting to try again and it's making me super broody. Logically, we need another kid in our house like we need a hole in our heads. But man, having another one is so tempting sometimes! I don't think that we will ever get to the point where we are whatevering again so if there's another baby destined for our family, they are going to have to show up via the sneak attack!









DTD frequency...that's a tough one. I agree with you MW that women's bodies are designed to have a cyclical nature to when they are more interested in DTD and that usually lines up with when they are fertile. That's for a reason. But the benefits of DTD for a couple aren't just procreative. There's also the unitive side of things as DTD is another form of communication between a couple. I have to force or remind myself to DTD because there's usually only about 2-3 days every 25-28 day cycle that I'm truly interested. But DH would prefer at least every other day. So yes, even though this is a season in our lives with a very small, very needy human, I do try to remember that having a small human in our family affects DH in other ways too. There are certainly things that I would like him to do for me with more frequency that he isn't so much inclined to do after caring for Ava all evening but I do appreciate it when he makes the effort. So I try to think about DTD from that angle. Doing something nice for my husband. Just like I would do something nice for my kids even if I was tired or grouchy or just wanting to lay in bed and be still.

Ava woke up at 6ish AM this morning screaming and I couldn't get her to calm down. I could tell she was in pain but she wouldn't take the ibuprofen. Usually when she's in pain, she takes it because she knows it will make her feel better. She threw up from screaming and then proceeded to moan, or scream until I was finally able to convince her to take some ibuprofen around 11:30 AM. She didn't have a fever but every time she would fall asleep and I would lay her down, she would start screaming. So I called the nurse and she said to bring her in. After the meds and her nap, she was all bouncy and happy but I took her to the appt anyway. Turns out she has an ear infection in her left ear. The dr said it was pretty inflamed and he could tell why she would be screaming.







I didn't send her to the sitter and had DH come pick her up from my office and take her home. She seemed in better spirits so hopefully she'll get some good rest tonight.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Carrie: maybe you're thinking too much? LOL Honestly . . . I don't know when exactly I'm desirous of sex. But I've always had more of a drive and nothing has ever thrown it off completely. Now that we are pretty regular (I think generally EOD or every third day ish) I generally don't go without long enough to feel really itchy. I have a feeling DH is at a point where he might want it every day. He didn't used to be that way - once a month or every 6 weeks was plenty for him at one point. He says its weird being on the flip side where he wants it all the time and I'm just not game quite *that* often.

I think the main issue may be one you've touched on already - you need Chris to support you in other ways throughout the day - and also give you some space - in order to maybe ramp up your drive. absence really does make the heart grow fonder, in some cases.

Yeah, this pregnancy is flying by! I can't believe it. I really need to work on getting ready for this baby. Not that there is much to do, but I need to rewash Gabe's old clothes, and I want to buy some nb AIOs, I'm stalking used sites, but need more spare $$ to snag the ones I want! LOL.

One of my friends is throwing me a mamababy blessing - I'm really touched that she wants to! - It's in 3 weeks. I love how some people just "get" that babies are to be celebrated, it's not about gifts or anything, even if it's not your first, or even your second. My MIL is not one of those people. oh well

Annie - Glad you got Ava figured out, but poor baby! hope she's feeling better soon!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Annie ~ I thought ear infection immediately from reading that description. Ryan used to get them all the time. I hope Ava is feeling better soon.

Carrie ~ I honestly think that, psychologically, feeling pressured to do something can really turn a person off from it. It may be that simple. Or, it could just be how your drive is now. As Kat mentioned with her and her dh, things change. They don't always stay the same.

I used to have a much more active sex drive when I was younger. I was up for it almost any time. Now, I could take it or leave it. I've been wondering a lot lately if it's just age for me, hormones changing, that sort of thing. I also have the aspect of never having another baby, which kind of defeats the purpose for me a lot in my mind. It's not that I don't like sex or ever want it. It's just not worth the effort much anymore. If my dh made an effort to dtd, I'd probably go along because, wth, right?







But I'm not going to make all the effort, especially if he's not showing any interest at all.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that. People have different likes and dislikes, desires and passions. Just because you aren't interested in sex as much as the next person doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with you or them. You are just different. That's ok.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

ITA - like anything - don't compare yourself to anyone outside your marriage. Why bother? I hope you and Chris can get on the same page, one way or the other.

the V went fine for DH, he's sleeping it off now.

Thought I'd update you with a belly pic - I did this one bare belly, and Norah had to get in on it too.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Cute belly! I love Norah in the photo, too. I must have missed something. I didn't realize the big V was today. Give that man a bag of frozen peas!









Dylan has seriously cut back on nursing lately. He only nursed first thing in the morning before we went to Raleigh. I asked him if he wanted milk before we left (It was almost noon.) and he said no.







He didn't want to nurse when we got there 2.5 hours later or right before we left about 5 hours after that. He finally nursed once we got home but he went at least 10 hours without nursing at all. Since we've been home he hardly nurses at all during the day. He's been wanting solid food and other drinks instead of milk most of the time.

Is that normal for a 17 month old? I can handle it if it's just normal and just means he's cutting back to only a few times a day. I don't want him to wean yet. I want him to make it until at least 2.

I spent the morning and early afternoon packing. I was planning to pack the little kids up and go to my mother's. Sean and I got a big fight last night and he said something that hurt me so bad that I just wanted to leave and not come back. I sent him a text this morning telling him that he could blame me for everything if he wanted but that wasn't really fair considering I've been trying to get him to do something for years now because we have been crumbling. Either way, I was done and gone. It was up to him to make it worthwhile for me to stay.

He came home around 2, found me in the boys' room packing suitcases, and asked me not to leave. I told him I couldn't stay somewhere that I felt like I wasn't wanted anymore. I asked him why he wanted me to stay. He said because he loves me and he wants to make things work. I told him again that, if that's what he really wants, he needs to do something about it. Just saying the words again with no follow-through is not enough. I'm not going to stick around very long waiting for him to do something.

Can you believe he said he didn't know what to do?







I had to tell him again about counseling and how to set it up. I've told him all of this before plus he gets regular info about it at work. He is the person in charge of passing that kind of info on to the other Marines in his unit. So, we shall see. I'm not unpacking.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

I'd say it's within the realm of normal, given the other nursing toddlers I'm around (and I'm so glad to know moms nursing toddlers! IRL!) - I'd just offer when you feel it's appropriate.

WOW in regards to you and Sean. I hope this is the kick in the pants he needs to get you both some help. Just hugs. too.

Thanks! I really feel like I have a baby belly this time, and I really didn't feel that way with Gabe. a bit more so with Norah.

DH is still sleeping . . . hope he's feeling ok.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

MW, he may pick back up in nursing frequency. Ava goes through spells where she hardly drinks any milk and then she has days where she won't eat anything and only drinks milk. Babies are weird. But she's pretty much down to just milk at sleep times.

I hope that your not-idle threat to leave is the kick in the pants that your DH needs to get his act together. He needs to step it up.

akind1, love your bump!

I made a resolution of sorts today and emailed DH and asked him if he would join me. I've resolved to take 20-30 mins after Ava goes to sleep for her nap and then again when I get home at night and do some pick-up and cleaning. He said he's willing to do something after Ava goes to sleep for the night. I'm hoping we can get to the point where we are staying on top of things rather always playing catch-up.


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *akind1* 

Re: needy touch - OMG - yes, this makes me feel resentful. DH isn't like that often, but why would anyone want to have sex with a needy, grouchy person?

but maybe now isn't the best time for him to be needy - you have enough people needing you during the day, the last thing you need is another at night. Explain that maybe if some of your non-sexual needs were met (getting kids in bed earlier, allowing you decompression time, etc) you might be able to meet some of his sexual ones? IDK. That's all I can think of.

That's basically us. The more desperate seeming he gets about it, the less turned on I am. I think it's because it seems less like it's about me, and more like it's just -dis- desire to fill -his- need, kwim?

Yes to this too. Hearing someone describe it as 'filling your cup' made the most sense to me. Once my own cup is full, I feel better able to help fill his cup. And some of that is being able ot enjoy some alone time without anyone tugging on me or asking anything of me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 

Dylan has seriously cut back on nursing lately. He only nursed first thing in the morning before we went to Raleigh. I asked him if he wanted milk before we left (It was almost noon.) and he said no.







He didn't want to nurse when we got there 2.5 hours later or right before we left about 5 hours after that. He finally nursed once we got home but he went at least 10 hours without nursing at all. Since we've been home he hardly nurses at all during the day. He's been wanting solid food and other drinks instead of milk most of the time.
Is that normal for a 17 month old? I can handle it if it's just normal and just means he's cutting back to only a few times a day. I don't want him to wean yet. I want him to make it until at least 2.


> So, we shall see. I'm not unpacking.


I think it sounds within the realm of normal, like Kat said. Tenley can be very easily redirected now, but she still asks constantly. But it's driving me nuts because she's doing the typical toddler behavior of "I want to nurse every 20 minutes... but only for 20 seconds." I'd much rather nurse her for 20 minutes every 2 hours. But you know... she disagrees. lol.

I've been following along, but haven't had enough time to sit and type out a real response. I hope you guys are able to work together to move forward. Such a hard place to be in. *hugs*

Ironically, I've been off all this week, and yet been so busy I've barely had any time on the computer at all. DH was home mon/tue plus we were both sick, so we had lazy family days, cleaning and just enjoying company. And then yesterday I went shopping with my BFF. We spent 4 hours wlaking around the mall shopping and talking and eating lunch. It was really great, and Tenley did -fantastic-. She started in the stroller and then started getting fussy, so I popped her on my back in the Boba and she fell asleep almost immediately and napped for 45 minutes while we shopped. Then back out and back into the stroller while we finished. It was so nice to spend time -really- talking to my friend again. And then I got called into work last night, and worked from 5-1130. Came home, slept. Woke up this morning and spent the day cleaning and play with Ten. Again, she's had SUCH a good day playing and finding things to do, and helping around the house and stuff (closing cupboards for me, "using measuring spoons" etc).

Feeling really good right now, though stressed about money. And my body. But I guess I'm just in general feeling hopeful and optimistic.

Anyways, off to watch a show or two and try to get to sleep early still.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> Cute belly! I love Norah in the photo, too. I must have missed something. I didn't realize the big V was today. Give that man a bag of frozen peas!
> 
> ...


Ohh my goodness. Listen, honestly, good for you. You've really been trying to make changes and point out where you think you both need to work on things, and he's been just ignoring all of it. Sometimes it takes a threat like leaving to make them realize how serious it all is. I too really hope he sees that things need to change and actually DOES something about it.









Re - the nursing - I've been having the same thoughts. I was wondering how often your LOs are nursing. Sometimes I feel l like it's not enough at all! But, I don't thnk we are anywhere near weaning. He will always nurse when I offer (even if it's only for a few min) and he still asks a few times a day. And it's all he wants when he's hurt or sick. So. I know we are still in the clear as far as that goes.

He's still nursing thru the night, right MW? He might just be too busy to do it during the day. Yesterday when we went out, we were gone from about 11-5 and I offered 3 times, but he only nursed once for about 10 min. I think 10 hours if you're busy and not just sitting around is fairly normal for once in awhile.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *onetwoten*
> 
> That's basically us. The more desperate seeming he gets about it, the less turned on I am. I think it's because it seems less like it's about me, and more like it's just -dis- desire to fill -his- need, kwim?
> 
> Yes to this too. Hearing someone describe it as 'filling your cup' made the most sense to me. Once my own cup is full, I feel better able to help fill his cup. And some of that is being able ot enjoy some alone time without anyone tugging on me or asking anything of me.


I'm really working on filling my cup. It's actually something that was even pointed out in the How to Stop Yelling book I'm reading. We can rarely parent from a peaceful place if we are too tired, hungry, or burnt out b/c we aren't taking care of ourselves first. It's like when you need to put on your oxygen mask first before putting one on your child.

So I'm aiming for at LEAST 30 min of time alone a day (and being in the shower/ on the toilet doesn't count). It helps so much! I definitely helps with my being able to then be intimate with Chris, b/c I feel like my needs are met before I have to give anymore of myself away.

Kat - hooray for the surgery being over! oh man, what a huge step! Hopefully recovery is quick.









AFM - NM going on. Same old. CD8, we dtd yesterday with nothing b/c I'm sure I was safe. So why this morning am I like oh no what did I do?? It's so hard to trust myself even when I know myself and we were safe!







Going to try temping again this cycle to see what's what. Hopefully it doesn't make me insane.

School day so I have to go dry my hair and get the kids ready to go.

I've got vacation on my mind. Are we still thinking of going to Myrtle beach this spring? Or should we try for fall? I need to go somewhere!


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Honestly, I'd prefer to do fall - I think my kids would all enjoy it better then (Theo would be around 6 months then), but we could do spring too, I think, if it were like April or so.

Carrie - yes, a big step. But one we are really sure about.

And CD8 . . . hm. When do you normall O? LOL (not trying to make you nervous!) One reason why I'm thrilled DH is cool with vasectomy is it means no more charting! ever! I am so relieved. He should be in the clear by the time I'm cleared to DTD after birth.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> And CD8 . . . hm. When do you normall O? LOL (not trying to make you nervous!) One reason why I'm thrilled DH is cool with vasectomy is it means no more charting! ever! I am so relieved. He should be in the clear by the time I'm cleared to DTD after birth.


CD16 or later. And I was dry/sticky. If I even have a TOUCH of possibly fertile fluid we wrap it up. But we were most likely, 99.9% in the clear.

If we do fall then I bet I can convince DH to rent a villa in PR in the spring!! I want a tropical/beach relaxing vacation.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

LOL, when I read "if we do fall" I thought you meant "fall pregnant" in which case I wasn't sure what that had to do with puerto rico . . .I need more coffee.

Seriously. my MDC DDC is funny, I'm trying to explain sidecarring a crib, and so many people are worried about how unsafe it is. It's kind of funny. and frustrating.


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baby_Cakes*
> 
> I'm really working on filling my cup. It's actually something that was even pointed out in the How to Stop Yelling book I'm reading. We can rarely parent from a peaceful place if we are too tired, hungry, or burnt out b/c we aren't taking care of ourselves first. It's like when you need to put on your oxygen mask first before putting one on your child.
> 
> ...


Yes exactly. I need to feel like I had some me time after having so much mama time and before having wife time. Otherwise I lose sight of the fact that there is a me.

Yeah, so since Tenley was born, we've used condoms like... twice. I hate them severely, so normally we just either trust my slim grip on my cycles right now, or pull out. Actually used a condom the other day, and it broke. Like seriously?!? lol Felt like such a teenager. Anyways, AF came already, so we're fine, but it was so crazy!

My BFF is probably going to be pregnant soon. So happy for her, and embarassed to admit that a small part of me wants to be pregnant again now, but really just so we can have babies together. Obviously I'm not stupid enough to know that that's a good idea, but it would be so nice! lol

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akind1*
> 
> Seriously. my MDC DDC is funny, I'm trying to explain sidecarring a crib, and so many people are worried about how unsafe it is. It's kind of funny. and frustrating.


Seriously? I don't understand how it would be unsafe? Although I mean I guess there has to be a lowest common denominator for everything, and there's probably people out there who would just take off a side, push it up against and call it a day. But... really?

Swimming date with my cousin and her girls today. I haven't been to this pool yet with Ten, but I'm excited, it's got a great kiddie pool with lots for them to do, slides and zero entry, and a little waterfall and stuff. And it's practically bath temperature too. Looking forward to it.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Carrie ~ I can understand the little bit of worry over dtd unprotected. Any time you dtd at all before you O you are taking a chance of getting pregnant, even when you use bc or barriers.

Dylan is not nursing through the night. He hasn't been for a while. He sleeps for at least 5 hours but sometimes as long as 7 hours before waking to nurse. He usually nurses right before he falls asleep, once after that 5-7 hour stretch and then again 2-3 hours later (we are usually still in bed). Then during the day it's kind of hit or miss depending on how busy we are. He didn't nurse much over the Christmas holiday, I think because there was so much going on and so much food to eat all the time.

He is also doing that toddler thing where he wants to nurse but maybe not even for a minute before he's off to play again. That drives me batty, too. Either nurse or don't but stop expecting me to stop whatever I'm doing every few minutes so you can nurse for a few seconds and then run off. And, of course, he always wants to nurse as soon as I start to do something else. If I'm just sitting on the couch kind of waiting to see what he's going to do, he doesn't even notice me. He's off playing so I think it's safe to knit a little. As soon as I pick up my yarn, his toddler sense starts tingling and he comes running and screaming. Mommy must do nothing but wait for me to want something!









Vacation: At this point, fall would probably be better for us because we are trying to get things straightened with house. Spring will be right around the time when we'll have to start wrapping things up, doing last minutes whatever and figuring how, when and where we are going to move. I haven't done much with my mom's timeshares for two reasons. One, I got overwhelmed trying to look things up in the book she gave me. There are so many resorts with so many options and I'm just not sure what we want. Plus, some of you were looking at other rentals and I didn't want my mom to use her points to reserve something if that was not what everyone wanted. I guess I'm not completely clear on what we want or need. Beachfront, beach view or across the highway? Sleeps 8 or 10 with everyone getting a separate bedroom or something else? One unit/house or two? Although, almost certainly if we need something that sleeps 10 with separate bedrooms for everyone, we would probably have to get two units.

I've been meaning to ask if you were reading that book but I've been so caught up in my marriage shit that I hadn't gotten around to it. I got it for Christmas, twice.







I'm reading it slowly. I just read the part of having your own cup full last night. ITA with that. That's a big reason why I don't "work" during naps. That's my time to sit and do something fun or interesting or enjoyable or relaxing just for me (sort of, most of the time). Of course, I still have the bigger boys around most days so it's not really complete alone time.

My dh doesn't seem to understand that I need that. He thinks it's enough for him to just be here and every once in a while run interference between me and the kids. Um, no. I need him to actually completely take care of the kids so I can be alone in my own head and body.

Last night I went to take a hot bubble bath after dinner. Halfway through my bath I here and bunch of banging and slamming and running around and dh not doing anything about it. I didn't get out of the tub. I tried to ignore it, hoping it would stop quickly, but it didn't. Finally, Ethan came bursting into the bathroom so I asked him to ask everyone else to stop slamming doors and banging things. That worked but it really should have been dh taking care of that.

On that note, we have a counseling appointment for Monday night. It's going to be kind of hard getting through the weekend but I think we're both already feeling a little better about things so we should be ok. I've decided I'm a nag. I have become that way sort of on purpose, though. I went through a long period when I didn't nag dh about anything. I was trying to show him through example but he never got it. His behavior actually got worse, went the opposite direction, almost like he saw me doing all this stuff so he figured he didn't need to do anything.

So, an example of me nagging, that you can tell me whether or not you all would have said anything about. We were driving to Raleigh. We hadn't even gotten out of Jacksonville and Ethan was car sick. We pulled over once to get him some Dramamine. He took it but not 10-15 minutes later he was throwing up. We had just pulled into Richlands, the next town over, so I told dh to pull over again. He said ok but kept driving. He drove past a big empty parking lot and then started to drive past an auto repair shop parking lot. I pointed both out to him but he kept driving. So, I told him, in an aggravated voice by now, to just pull over and stop NOW! I don't know what he was thinking. This all happened in really only a matter of seconds because we did stop in the auto shop parking lot. Then dh goes to get out just as Ethan starts gagging and vomiting but he's moseying, walking very slowly and taking his own sweet time to get to Ethan. So, I jump out of the van, fling the door open and get Ethan out of the car as quickly as possible. I'm like, "WTH, Sean? Ethan was throwing up and you are acting like you are on a leisurely stroll. Why didn't you hurry up?" His response, a sort of grunted shrug of IDK and that he thought Ethan was only coughing. Um, we knew he was feeling car sick and he almost always throws up when he feels that way. I would think in that situation you could put two and two together and realize he was throwing up and not just coughing. To me, that's just plain stupid. Ok, it wasn't a full blown emergency. No one was going to die. But Ethan was vomiting and we still had at least 2 hours of driving time. Did he want to drive all that way with the car smelling like vomit?

Should I have not said anything and just dealt with it myself? I feel like if I don't say anything he doesn't take things seriously or think about them or see how he should have done things differently. He just doesn't seem to think. He says I treat him like I think he's stupid. Well, truth be told, I do. I think he is very stupid and I'm sick of it. I can't stand stupid.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

MW: that's not nagging to me. I'd of done the same - But my DH may not have even gotten out of the car - generally I'm the one who handles the car stuff with the kids. I remember going through that when DS was a tiny baby, before I figured out how to nurse while he was still in the carseat, debating whether we should stop, where to stop, etc, to stop the screaming. Because 7/10 times, as soon as he was back in the carseat, he'd be screaming anyway, so it seemed kind of pointless to bother. But then Gabe got older, found his thumb and a lovey (and I learned how to nurse him while in the carseat) - and it was fine.

I hope the counseling helps. How are the kids reacting to the tension in the house? because there is bound to be some.

JJ: I don't know - I mean, this is MDC, and the question was in regards to safe co-sleeping. I honestly think a properly sidecarred crib is so much better than the arm's reach co-sleeper. I just attached some links showing how to side car a crib. I understand people's nervousness. You make things as safe as you can. And yeah, babies do fall off beds. You don't encourage it, but it happens. I'd rather a baby fall of my bed (which is low) onto the carpeted floor, than climb out of his crib. That seems so much less safe to me.

Enjoy your swimming date!

We had a short babywearing playdate (Gabe was breaking down horribly) and went to a friends house and had pizza instead. Gabe loves her little girl, and they play really well together. Now back home to work, work, work. yay.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

I meant to say that thinking a sidecarred crib is unsafe seems strange for MDC. But that's the kind of thing that has kept me from bothering with other boards anymore. The attitude here has changed and has become a lot more mainstream, imo.

Having an older child saying he is sick and going to throw up and then actually vomiting is different from a crying newborn. A lot of times there is nothing you can do about a newborn crying in the car except to hurry up and get where you are going. However, if you know your child is about to throw up, stop asap and help get that kid out of the car!

Ethan was upset over the fighting. I had locked dh out of the bedroom that night until Ethan cried and begged me to let him back in. I agreed as long as dh apologized. He came back in the room to sleep but didn't say anything to me. Not one word.







So, then Ethan was also very concerned about me packing things to go to my mother's on such short notice. Kellen doesn't seems to be oblivious. Dylan has been overly clingy or extremely charming when dh and I are together, almost like he's trying to lighten the mood. It's kind of hard to stay angry at anyone when there's a cute baby in your face.


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Either nurse or don't but stop expecting me to stop whatever I'm doing every few minutes so you can nurse for a few seconds and then run off. And, of course, he always wants to nurse as soon as I start to do something else. If I'm just sitting on the couch kind of waiting to see what he's going to do, he doesn't even notice me. He's off playing so I think it's safe to knit a little. As soon as I pick up my yarn, his toddler sense starts tingling and he comes running and screaming. Mommy must do nothing but wait for me to want something!


Exactly! It's not like she's spending more time overall nursing, but I'm nursing dozens of times during the day, for not time, so I have to be "on" all the time.

I think you were right to say something, but could have worded it nicer, or even said something after the fact. It's hard when they're acting like children, but don't want to be treated like children. I've had some progress with just flat out telling DH that during a fight. He doesn't like that I 'act like this mother', and so I yelled back that I didn't like having to act like his mother either! Did he think I -liked- having to chase him around reminding him of stupid things that he should already be doing? I think it kind of made him stop and think a little bit. Like neither of us LIKE it when I have to nag. So if you did these things to start with, then I wouldn't have to get upset by having to nag you, and you wouldn't get angry when I did nag you.

If you do have to say something, like in that case, you could probably word it more matter of factly about the situation, rather than an attack. Something like "Sean, Ethan is about to throw up in the van, someone needs to get him NOW." Start moving at the same time, because you know it'll take him a second to absorb what you've said, but at the same time, you're acknowledging what the issue is. After the fact, once Ethan is settled again, let him know "I'm sorry I raised my voice, but it was obvious to me that Ethan needed out of the van -right away- and you were not moving fast enough to get him out. I really don't want to have to drive another two hours with puke in the van." More of an If... then type statement, right? Don't involve emotions, more just making him aware of how his actions affect those around him. "Sean when you move so slowly like that, even though we know Ethan is sick, it means that he throws up in the van, and all of us have to spend the next two hours with that smell. If you hurry to get him out of the van faster, we can get on the way quicker."

So much easier said than done, trust me, I know. But it's worth a shot.

Swimming was good, and then we went to mcd's playplace afterwards, and then she slept for 75 minutes in the car. She's in such a weird mood now!


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *MarineWife* 

Carrie ~ I can understand the little bit of worry over dtd unprotected. Any time you dtd at all before you O you are taking a chance of getting pregnant, even when you use bc or barriers.
Dylan is not nursing through the night. He hasn't been for a while. He sleeps for at least 5 hours but sometimes as long as 7 hours before waking to nurse.

Vacation: At this point, fall would probably be better for us because we are trying to get things straightened with house.
I've been meaning to ask if you were reading that book but I've been so caught up in my marriage shit that I hadn't gotten aro

So, an example of me nagging, that you can tell me whether or not you all would have said anything about. ... I'm like, "WTH, Sean? Ethan was throwing up and you are acting like you are on a leisurely stroll. Why didn't you hurry up?" His response, a sort of grunted shrug of IDK and that he thought Ethan was only coughing.



> Should I have not said anything and just dealt with it myself? I feel like if I don't say anything he doesn't take things seriously or think about them or see how he should have done things differently. He just doesn't seem to think. He says I treat him like I think he's stupid. Well, truth be told, I do. I think he is very stupid and I'm sick of it. I can't stand stupid.


Yes that's totally true. Any DTD before O can go either way. Yikes!







Oh well I guess we shall see. The one thing that really sucks about DTD w/o protection is it screws up your cm b/c you don't know if it's cm or leftovers. So yesterday I was unable to tell what was going on.

Oh ok about Dylan nursing. That's awesome he goes so long at night tho.

I counted and a rough estimate for us is nursing about 5 times a day. Not including a booboo or a tantrum tamer. I'm constantly worrying this isn't enough, but he eats crazy amounts of food and is def eating enough. I just can't believe we are at almost a year and a half. My goal was to make it past two and I feel like that isn't so far off at all! It's odd that he's a nursing toddler now. It's like it happened overnight. I'm just in no hurry to wean at all (if at all).

So. The nagging. I'm right there with you!!!! ARGH!! I can't stand it when they don't use their brains. I would have totally blurted out the same thing, MW, seriously. BUT in the interest of trying to salvage my relationship, I would have also apologized after the fact and explained my position. The same way I do when I yell at Nora for doing something I consider frustrating. I always try to say, "Listen, I'm sorry I yelled. I was frustrated b/c of X. " It helps. It does. I'm not sorry I was mad about it but I'm sorry I yelled at you for it. S's grunting is probably him just not wanting to get into it with you. Chris does that. He will try to back away from a fight before it becomes something and man...that makes me even more mad sometimes! I'll pick and pick and pick until I get a reaction! And then by that time it's BAD.

Ooh I'm out of order. Ok lets aim for Fall then! We can go thru the room situation together so it doesn't get overwhelming. I would love walking distance to the beach. Other than that, we just need 2 beds. I don't care about sharing a kitchen or anything like that. It'll still be hot enough in the fall for beach weather right?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> Ethan was upset over the fighting. I had locked dh out of the bedroom that night until Ethan cried and begged me to let him back in. I agreed as long as dh apologized. He came back in the room to sleep but didn't say anything to me. Not one word.
> 
> ...


Aww. And so true! Dylan is just such a charmer.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *onetwoten*
> 
> If you do have to say something, like in that case, you could probably word it more matter of factly about the situation, rather than an attack. Something like "Sean, Ethan is about to throw up in the van, someone needs to get him NOW." Start moving at the same time, because you know it'll take him a second to absorb what you've said, but at the same time, you're acknowledging what the issue is. After the fact, once Ethan is settled again, let him know "I'm sorry I raised my voice, but it was obvious to me that Ethan needed out of the van -right away- and you were not moving fast enough to get him out. I really don't want to have to drive another two hours with puke in the van." More of an If... then type statement, right? Don't involve emotions, more just making him aware of how his actions affect those around him. "Sean when you move so slowly like that, even though we know Ethan is sick, it means that he throws up in the van, and all of us have to spend the next two hours with that smell. If you hurry to get him out of the van faster, we can get on the way quicker."


Yeah!









AFM - back on WW! Holy it's going to be tough. I forgot how easy it is to just ignore it. But I've got to do this! For myself and for my health.

We had a rough night last night. I called DH at 5 and told him to please come get Finn back to sleep b/c I'd had it. At 730 he wakes me up and says he's going running. GRR. Tho it's much nicer in the am w/o him sitting around.

I think I'm going to seriously try to push counseling. What do you do with the kids when you're going to counseling? I don't want to tell anyone, esp not his parents. I'm thinking of going on a school day and just bringing Finn with us?

I'm also really thinking I need to go alone first for a few times and air my grievances alone, and maybe get sme perspective.

I'm nervous b/c the last time I tried a therapist, I was young, around 20. And all she could really tell me was maybe Chris wasn't the right guy for me. That I probably would be better off w/o him. Will a therapist just come out and tell you it's hopeless and you should split up?


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Carrie ~ I think a counselor will tell you that you might be better of without someone but the reasons may depend. Did she say that because she really thought Chris was not the guy for you or did she that because she thought that you wouldn't be able to deal with things? Two completely different reasons, ya know? I have never had a counselor tell me that Sean wasn't for me but we were already married. I would hope that would make a difference. I would think that any counselor worth anything would understand that, short of abuse, the most important thing is to try to salvage the marriage if at all possible, especially if children are involved.

If you go to someone for marriage counseling, they will probably met with you both together and then with each of you separately. You can certainly go on your own, too, but if you are really going to couples counseling, I think you should take Chris if he's willing. If he's not willing, go on your own anyway.

Early fall will probably be warm enough in SC for the beach but not for swimming (for me, anyway). I'm not a fan of swimming so that's not an issue for me. I'm perfectly happy to sit on the beach in the warm sun playing in the sand.

I went back and reread what I wrote. I put it in quotes but that's not exactly what I said to Sean. I can't remember exactly now. It was something along the lines of, "Why were you moving so slowly? Didn't you realize Ethan was throwing up?" I'm pretty sure I said it after I had already gotten out of the car and dealt with it because he was still walking slowly around the front. I would have gotten out first, but Sean was already out of the car. I do try to ask him in a calm, matter-of-fact tone what he was thinking. He doesn't usually give me any answer unless I really push him and then it's just angry crap. I honestly think he does not think. He knows he didn't think and doesn't want to admit it so he just grunts and shrugs and tries to ignore me. Sean is definitely a stick your head in the sand kind of person and hope the problem just goes away. He doesn't like to face or confront things.

I've totally lost my train of thought because Kellen has interrupted me umpteen times and Dylan is screaming and pushing at me and trying to get into my lap. If I remember what else I was going to say, I'll come back later and post it.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

It's hard to explain. At the time I was really young and my family was a huge stress. When I would explain how Chris would talk to me, etc, she said he sounded a lot like my mother, and did I really want that sort of relationship or was I just encouraging the past to repeat itself? All the things Chris would dismiss as stupid, how he would shut down and not talk to me, etc. it was too much truth for me to handle at that time, for sure. I couldn't accept that I was in love with someone so similar to someone I couldn't stand. So. I stopped going.







I needed him. I needed him more than I ever needed anything else -- especially to escape my family and get away from how horrible they were. I couldn't imagine going forward w/o him in my life b/c, in every sense of the word, he rescued me.

I do feel indebted to him for a lot of things. I mean, when I didn't have a car b/c my sister would take it, he would drive me to work. When I got sick at college, he would pick me up and take me to the dr. My family completely abandoned me and didn't care. He was always there for me. Always. Emotionally, maybe not so much. But he was honestly there for me every step of the way and really pulled me out of a bad situation.

And especially now that I have NO family and he's all I have (him and his mom and dad and brothers) I can't logically just say it's over. It can never be. I have nobody and nothing else.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Don't they say we all marry our mothers in some form or another?







I can see a lot of my mother's behaviors in Sean and I do not have a good relationship with her. I have no idea how I'm like Sean's mother. It seems we are complete opposites.









It sounds like counseling could help you both a lot. Maybe having someone else tell Chris how his behavior toward you is sometimes not ok will make him stop and think. And, also you feeling like you are in a safe place to tell him exactly how you feel about how he rescued you and how grateful you are for that and you love him for it and don't want to leave him or his family but that doesn't mean that he can treat you however he wants or that you will just take it.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

That's a really good point. Really. I do feel like if I say anything it's a slap in the face to him. So that makes it truly hard. An impartial 3rd party would make that easier for sure.

Ok so DH and I talked. If we skip a big vacation this spring, we could put that money toward moving. I think that's a bigger issue and more important. I need a new kitchen more than I need a tan.







Our biggest stressor right now is moving. UGH I just want to find a house and GO. It's so hard being stuffed in a house that's too small. It's like we can't move fwd with anything.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Sometimes, especially men, need someone else, another man, to tell them what they are doing wrong and how they need to change for them to get it. It's kind of sad but that seems to be how it is. One of the things the author in that last marriage book I read spent an entire section on was talking to men about how they need to let their wives influence them. It's not enough for them to just let their wives talk. It's not enough to nod and smile and say, "Yes, Dear." They have to really listen to, think about and sometimes go with what their wives have said.

I think I mentioned here before about how Sean had read in that, Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus book that men should just act like they are listening while women ramble and the women would be happy. Not so much when you come back later to talk about something again and the man has no idea what you are talking about or if you are telling him to do something a certain way and he goes off and does it a completely different way after all that talking.

We went looking for a new back door yesterday because the frame of ours is rotting on one side and that will affect the appraisal for the refi. The door we have now has a full glass window in it so we have a roman shade hanging on it to cover the window for privacy. I told Sean that I'd like to get one just like it but that has the blinds inside the glass. We really only need to replace the frame but that would cost around $200 and it would only be another couple hundred to replace the entire door, so why not, right? We found a door with the blinds in it at a building supplier store for $300. Perfect! I asked Sean before he got the door out to take up to the register if he had measured them. He said he had. We got home and the door doesn't fit. It's too big. So, turns out, he didn't really measure the door. He remembered the measurement of the front door and assumed they were the same size. Well, anyone who knows anything about houses knows that the front door is almost always bigger than a single back door. It's a design thing.









So, he goes back out to return the door we got and try to find another one that fits. He comes home and says the only way to get the door we want is to special order it for $800. I said that just doesn't sound right. The builders didn't put any special sized door in our house. It's tract house just like all the others in this neighborhood. They got the cheapest supplies they could get from the local suppliers. After going around and around he finally tells me that he could get a door just like ours, without the blinds inside, for around $300. Well, duh! Then get that!

I had to spell out for him that the whole point was to repair the things in the house that would lower the appraisal without spending a ton of money. I mean, since we are keeping the house (for now) I do want to make improvements and not skimp on repairs but I also don't want to spend a ton for extra things that aren't necessary. So, um, if the door with the blinds in it is $800 and the door without the blinds is only $300, get the one without. Then the door will be repaired and be the same. Especially since we can eventually buy a new window insert that has the blinds in it for another $100.

Why do I have to explain all of that to him? He can't figure it out himself? It doesn't occur to him to tell from the get-go about the options? He got so stuck on the window with the blinds in it that he wasn't going to tell me about anything else until I kept questioning him and pushing him until he got pissy about it. I think that's some sort of Marine Corps thing. He is given orders, told to do something a certain way. The end result has to be this. He can't make a decision party way through that it's better or makes more sense another way. He just has to do what he's told no matter what. It drives me crazy!


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

Maybe he just heard you say that you wanted the one with the blinds and was trying to be nice and get that one for you, even if it was going to cost more, so that you would be happy with it?

Typing on phone in the car. Blah. Bbl


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Honestly, I probably would have appreciated if my DH didn't color outside the lines if I had specifically instructed him to get a certain thing at the store. We try really hard to not make substitutions even on small things without consulting with the other person if we were asked to do something specific. I got frustrated with DH when I sent him to the store on Christmas Eve because I specifically wrote on his list to get a very small chunk of ham. He came home with a 10 lb ham with the excuse that it was only a few dollars more and a better deal. It took longer to cook and it's not a better deal if we end up throwing most of it away because not everyone eats the ham. It would have been better if he bought no ham IMO.

I think you guys are at a make it or break it point. IMO, you need to decide if you want to stay married to him. If you do, then in the words of my Marine DH "you gotta stop picking the fly shit out of the pepper". I'm saying this with a lot of love. You either need to let the little things roll off your back or if the little things have piled up so much that you can't ignore them, then one of you needs to leave.

Vacation stuff: Fall is good for me. I don't care if we are right on the beach so long as there is a pool close by. I think it would be nice if we could find a place for all of us to stay together if not, then something like we had in Williamsburg where everyone can wander back and forth.

Ava is finally feeling better and getting back to her regular sleep pattern. She went to bed at 7:30 PM last night and her first wake-up for milk wasn't until 1:30 AM. So awesome! Oh, I was going to say for those that only nurse 4-5 times a day, that's pretty much how often I'm pumping these days as well. But when you guys go all day without nursing, are you dying by the time the baby actually nurses? I can't go more than 5-6 hours during the day without pumping. I can go 7-9 hrs overnight without pumping but only if I'm asleep.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *onetwoten*
> 
> Maybe he just heard you say that you wanted the one with the blinds and was trying to be nice and get that one for you, even if it was going to cost more, so that you would be happy with it?


Absolutely, and I get that. But, why wouldn't he also tell me about the other options? That just doesn't make any sense to me, especially when I had already said that it didn't make sense that we would have a door that's some special size that no store in the area, including Lowe's and Home Depot, carries. Door sizes are standard unless you get something specially made.

If I say to you, "That's too much. There must be another option." Would you then, at least, tell me we can get a door without the blinds in it? I honestly do not understand why he didn't tell me that from the get go.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> Sometimes, especially men, need someone else, another man, to tell them what they are doing wrong and how they need to change for them to get it. It's kind of sad but that seems to be how it is. One of the things the author in that last marriage book I read spent an entire section on was talking to men about how they need to let their wives influence them. It's not enough for them to just let their wives talk. It's not enough to nod and smile and say, "Yes, Dear." They have to really listen to, think about and sometimes go with what their wives have said.


I totally agree and this is one of the big reasons why I love going to talk to a priest w/DH. He listens better to men.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *AnnieA* 


> I think you guys are at a make it or break it point. IMO, you need to decide if you want to stay married to him. If you do, then in the words of my Marine DH "you gotta stop picking the fly shit out of the pepper". I'm saying this with a lot of love. You either need to let the little things roll off your back or if the little things have piled up so much that you can't ignore them, then one of you needs to leave.


I have a little bit more time now so I thought I would elaborate on this. About a year ago, DH and I made the decision that short of physical abuse or homicide, we weren't getting a divorce. And the funny this is that we stopped bickering about a lot of small things. It's just not worth it. We're grownups, we're kind of set in our ways and short of us doing something that is physically hurting each other or seriously damaging the kids, we really just need to learn to deal with it. It was really freeing in a way. We still have our moments and I have to work really hard to watch how I talk to DH. When the big kids are home, I go in to "management" mode which you kind of have to do with so many kids and I lump DH in to that. And then I get frustrated when he does something "stupid". But he pointed out to me one time that the way I was speaking to him was not a way I would talk to the kids and certainly wasn't a way I wanted them to speak to each other or us so I really needed to work on that. And he's right. Even if he does stuff that I think is stupid, he's still a human, he's still the kids' dad and I need to afford him a certain level of respect, especially when speaking to him in front of the kids.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> I totally agree and this is one of the big reasons why I love going to talk to a priest w/DH. He listens better to men.


That's why I've been trying to encourage my dh to talk to a Chaplain. Not only is it a man but also a man who knows how the Marine Corps works and has experienced deployments and possibly war first-hand. I think a Chaplain could understand any issues Sean has with that more than anyone else. He seems very reluctant to do that but he is willing to see a civilian counselor.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> That's why I've been trying to encourage my dh to talk to a Chaplain. Not only is it a man but also a man who knows how the Marine Corps works and has experienced deployments and possibly war first-hand. I think a Chaplain could understand any issues Sean has with that more than anyone else. He seems very reluctant to do that but he is willing to see a civilian counselor.


Wonder why he's reluctant. My DH's favorite priest to talk to is a former Navy Chaplain that spent 30 yrs dealing with Marines. There's literally nothing you can say that would shock him. Nothing. Maybe he's concerned that it wouldn't be totally private? Do Chaplains have to report things if told to them in confidence?


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

Hmm, maybe it's a case of not wanting to shit where he eats. Maybe he is angry about some stuff that goes on within the marines and doesn't want to confess that to someone involved? Idk, I'm reaching. It does seem odd.

Lauri - so true about watching our tone. I catch myself talking to DH in such a nasty way sometimes! I have to remember that it goes all ways - I have to at least give my relationship with my DH the same amount of effort I put into the relationships with my kids.

AFM - I'm so sick and I just want to be alone!!! Ugh. I'm going away for a week so nobody can bother me.







Other than that nothing new.


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> But he pointed out to me one time that the way I was speaking to him was not a way I would talk to the kids and certainly wasn't a way I wanted them to speak to each other or us so I really needed to work on that. And he's right. Even if he does stuff that I think is stupid, he's still a human, he's still the kids' dad and I need to afford him a certain level of respect, especially when speaking to him in front of the kids.


So true. We talk a lot as parents about how our children deserve our respect, and how their people too, and need to be treated well, but then we treat our spouses like crap. We would -flip- if someone talked to our children that way, but see it as ok to use those words/tones to speak to our husbands, and yes, often in front of our kids. It disrupts their relationship with the kids and undermines them, and shows them that we think of them as less than people, especially when we make such a big deal out of how people talk to our children, and that everyone should be equals.

Busy weekend here, but good. Went shopping this morning for groceries and took the tree down. Instead of moving the furniture back in, we're going to use the corner as a toy corner. It's nice because it's half tucked away behind the couch, so I think the room will look cleaner and less cluttered.

Ten has had such an explosion of language and development lately. It's crazy watching her change everyday. She's expressing herself so much, she's picked up a handful of new words and signs the past week, and has been acting more like a little girl. It's so weird! She's also been trying to put herself to bed most nights- she'll nurse and then reach for the bed, and smile when I lay her down and kiss her cheek. I stay in the room while she falls asleep, and it's so cute to watch her lift her head up every few minutes to watch for me, see me, and then grin sleepily and put her head back down and close her eyes. I love it.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Been following along, mostly mobile, so I doubt I'll remember everything.

I hope everyone's marriages gets back in a good place, with counseling, or whatever. MW: you have an appointment this afternoon evening? Carrie - hope you and Chris find a solution that works.

JJ: the developmentental spurts are amazing aren't they? and challenging!

We have been struck by the tummy bug this weekend, except for DH, but he's recovering from his vasectomy, so none of us is 100%. The kids seem fine except for diarrhea. I'm ok, I think, except for the same. Have my rescheduled appt this morning, woot. Nothing much else is new. I hate when we are all sick. I hate when any of us are sick. It needs to go away!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Kat ~ Glad everyone is feeling better. Sickness is never any fun.

JJ ~ It's amazing how they grow in leaps and bounds. I've been wondering at how grown up Dylan seems lately.

I asked dh yesterday why he's resistant about talking with a Chaplain. He said because they all talk to each other. It's supposed to be confidential unless someone is a danger to himself or others. We were told when dh first joined the Marine Corps that the Chaplain was the only person who was completely confidential. I guess they have their religious/confession type rules as well as legal rules about confidentiality. I told dh that even if they do talk to each other, they should never identify anyone. He kind of shrugged. I understand his trepidation but, like you said Annie, they've heard all kinds of things and we don't have anything really serious going on. It's not like we have illegal activity or abuse or child neglect issues. I think it's pretty normal relationship problems.

I must have missed a post somewhere because I didn't see the one from Annie about how we talk to each other. I am guilty of being nasty to dh. I know it and I want to change it but it's like my mouth has a mind of it's own sometimes. I can't deal with stupid very well. I can understand making a mistake once but if you've been shown, asked and then told how to do it differently many, many times and you continue to do the same stupid thing over and over and then act like you don't understand what the problem is, I lose it.









Like my girl, Sunshine, having a baby at 18/19 and single with no real way to support herself much less the baby. I can understand making that mistake once. Shoot, I did it myself. But she's now 7 months pregnant, again, single, again, and is still working only one minimum wage job. WTH? She's not stupid but then she is. It's not _that_ hard to prevent a pregnancy, people! Only one person has to make an effort.

An example from my dh, last night I was brushing my teeth for bed. Kellen was getting hyper as he always does right at bedtime. Sean was standing in the middle of the room just telling him to stop, _stop_, STOP!, but not actually doing anything except getting more and more aggravated. He had the TV on ESPN. I didn't say anything. When I finished brushing my teeth, I scooped Kellen up, carried him into the other room and talked to him about how he has to be considerate of the rest of us at bedtime or he won't be able to sleep with us. It took maybe 5 minutes. Then we went back in the other room, settled down pretty well, and went to sleep, no more major issues.

I've done that numerous times in front of dh. I've told him I don't know how many times that he has to get up, go to Kellen, get and hold his attention and stay with him until he actually does whatever it is. You can't ask Kellen to get dressed or brush his teeth and then walk away and expect it to be done. He gets distracted too easily. I asked Kellen the other day why he gets so distracted and why he's so squirmy/hyper. He said, "I'm five. What do you think?"







DH never gets it and we're working on kid #4 here. Fine, you're not going to get it. Then don't get all pissy when I tell you that you don't get it.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Yes, thank God, we are feeling better. Kids are still cranky and clingy.

I couldn't PIAC at the OB this morning. Oh well. A friend had a successful VBAC this weekend - so happy for her! she taught a CD class in the morning, and had the baby 3 hours later. Thrilled. I need to get on the ball and get this baby's stuff together. I don't feel prepared. I need time. was going to do some this weekend, but sickness derailed us. oh well.

This baby is so active - a good thing, but exhausting.

talking to DH's. . . . I don't think I'm every downright nasty. Sarcastic? yeah . . . but generally not mean. But I'm not mean to anybody (to their face. I admit to saying some very unkind things about my sister. But I think generally they are honest things, LOL). I think when it comes to our spouses sometimes, they are the one person we don't censor ourselves with, which can be both good and bad.

Stupid people - yes, they are hard to deal with. it's one thing for them to be peripheral - like Sunshine - her stupidity likely doesn't directly affect you and yours. Sean's though? whether it's intellectual or emotional stupidity - it's hard having to live with that - it DOES affect you and the boys. You want to be able to respect your husband. I know you are not a religious person, but I think that's why husbands are told to love their wives (because they tend to be selfish creatures who forget), and women are told to respect their husbands (not because we are really meant to be subordinate, submissive nimwits) - but because men really are that stupid in some areas that respect is what comes hard. It's easy to love them. Respect is harder, and it's what they crave more than love.

I have less than 2 weeks until my maternity pictures! and a mama baby blessing! I am excited about both.


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## Baby_Cakes (Jan 14, 2008)

I wish I could take a sick day!! Ugh, this cold is AWFUL!!!

Diapers are drying, towels are washing, sheets are next. I feel like I still need to keep my routine at least a bit. I hate being sick!! I'm willing to let the toy mess pile up but I can't skip over my weekly chores. Otherwise playing catch up will kill me next week! I still have to wipe down the bathroom and at least fold a bin of clean laundry.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *akind1* 


> I think that's why husbands are told to love their wives (because they tend to be selfish creatures who forget), and women are told to respect their husbands (not because we are really meant to be subordinate, submissive nimwits) - but because men really are that stupid in some areas that respect is what comes hard. It's easy to love them. Respect is harder, and it's what they crave more than love.










I think that is the best explanation of that verse I've ever seen. And so totally true.

A friend from church just announced that she's pregnant and I'm having serious baby-envy. And I'm in my LP so I know it's not pre-O hormones...yikes!


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Kat ~ That made me laugh, too. That's a great way of describing it. I'm glad I'm not the only one who had issues with that. Makes me feel like it's not too big of a deal. KWIM?

counseling went well, I think. I did more laughing than com plaining and felt lighter when we left. the counselor said we had very common problems, especially with military couples. whew! she said they are fixable. I liked that she asked us what the other could do to make us feel supported. I felt like that was a step toward actually doing something rather than just talking about it. I spent four years or so talking about stuff with a marriage therapist and never got anywhere. she never asked me what would make me feel better or worse. anyway, happy about that.

Carrie, I think to asked what I do about childcare. a friend watched my kids. I didn't tell her it was for counseling. I used the refi as an excuse. If this becomes regular, I will probably have to tell her the truth. If we can keep Monday night's, Ryan might be able to babysit a lot.


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## onetwoten (Aug 13, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> counseling went well, I think. I did more laughing than com plaining and felt lighter when we left. the counselor said we had very common problems, especially with military couples. whew! she said they are fixable. I liked that she asked us what the other could do to make us feel supported. I felt like that was a step toward actually doing something rather than just talking about it. I spent four years or so talking about stuff with a marriage therapist and never got anywhere. she never asked me what would make me feel better or worse. anyway, happy about that.


I'm glad it went well for you guys! Keep thinking positive. You guys can do this.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> Kat ~ That made me laugh, too. That's a great way of describing it. I'm glad I'm not the only one who had issues with that. Makes me feel like it's not too big of a deal. KWIM?
> counseling went well, I think. I did more laughing than com plaining and felt lighter when we left. the counselor said we had very common problems, especially with military couples. whew! she said they are fixable. I liked that she asked us what the other could do to make us feel supported. I felt like that was a step toward actually doing something rather than just talking about it. I spent four years or so talking about stuff with a marriage therapist and never got anywhere. she never asked me what would make me feel better or worse. anyway, happy about that.
> Carrie, I think to asked what I do about childcare. a friend watched my kids. I didn't tell her it was for counseling. I used the refi as an excuse. If this becomes regular, I will probably have to tell her the truth. If we can keep Monday night's, Ryan might be able to babysit a lot.


SO glad it went well! Do you guys have plans to go back again soon?


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

MW: I'm glad to hear good news! I hope it can become a regular thing, and that the counselor and you clicked.

I am so tired. I need to talk to DH . . . nothing big, but since his vasectomy, he's been letting me fall asleep with Gabe, and I would still like some grown up time. He used to make sure I'd wake up so we could maybe DTD before bed. He's still in recoup mode, so I don't know if he's just tired himself, or sees no point? I haven't watched grown up TV or eaten icecream since his surgery, bc I can't stay awake. Granted, I've also been down with this damn bug, so maybe I'll be able to wake my own self up. Gabe was soooo restless last night! he was bouncing, and usually he's not THAT wired at bedtime.

I tell you, this month is screaming by. I need to figure out a timeline to get things done before this baby is born. I keep putting it off, assuming I have time, and that's just not true. Two IRL friends had babies this weekend, and one is scheduled for induction tomorrow. Her pregnancy has been HELL. major hyper emesis - she's STILL on a Zofran pump - GD with insulin. It's her second pregnancy, and likely her last. I think they might adopt in the future. I am so eager to meet her little one, and I know she's eager to move on from pregnancy. One friend had a quick, easy VBAC, the other had an emergency c-section due to abruptrion, but baby seems to be doing well in NICU. Just shows the gamut of stuff that *can* happen. good and bad. Anyway . . . Yeah. I need to wash clothes, organize kids rooms, fold existing laundry, put out an ISO of the remaining clothes I need, I want some NB AIO diapers, I found a WAHM brand I like that's really reasonable. I need to finish paying my doula, pay for my maternity pictures .. .*sigh* I'm not stressed, but maybe I should be.

Carrie: Are you feeling any better?

JJ: how's Tenley doing? still leaps and bounds?

EuroMama - havent' heard from you in a while.

Annie? Laurie? . . . .


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Carrie ~ If you are sick, rest! The more you rest the sooner you'll get really better. Can't Chris help with your chores while you are down?

Kat ~ I hear you on this month flying by. It's already almost Ethan's birthday this Sunday! Do you need any boy stuff? I have a ton! (hmm...I've been trying to get this stuff out of my house forever. Maybe I'll just send it all to you and let you deal with. Mwahahaha







)

As usual, it has sneaked up on me even though I've been reminding myself of it since before Christmas. There is nothing to do in this town in the winter, nowhere to have a cool party for a 9 year old. My friend came up with the idea of a Lego party so we are going with that. She found some pics of some really cool cakes. I posted the one Ethan wants on my Facebook so I would remember and could show it to bakers on my phone. No one in this lame town does fondant! How can you bake specialty cakes and not do fondant? They also don't do specially shaped cakes or tiered cakes. WTH?! But, we may be saved. I forgot that Sean worked in a bakery for several years as a teenager. We're going to try to make it ourselves. Eeek! He came up with the idea of making a rectangular cake and putting a bunch of upside down cupcake bottoms around the cake like the pegs on a lego block. So easy! I found out you can buy sheets of already made and colored fondant at Michael's Craft Store. The only problem is that it doesn't taste very good. But, Sean looked some things up yesterday and said you are supposed to put buttercream frosting on the cake before putting the fondant on, so that should make it taste ok.

I still need to get to TRU and the party supply store to see if I can find Lego plates, cups, decorations and a pinata. I'm excited about it all now. Yesterday, I was upset that I had, again, waited too long and couldn't find anywhere to have a party. If this goes well, maybe most of our parties will be at home from now on.









Kellen has been really hyper at night the past 3 or 4 nights, too. I don't know what that's about. He's always full of energy but these past few days he has been out of control. I was awake at 7:30 this morning because he peed on me in his sleep! He has peed in his pants several times in the past couple of days because he's been so busy playing that he didn't want to stop to go to the bathroom. He peed in his pants at the bakery yesterday even though there was a bathroom right there. When I asked him why he didn't tell me he had to go he just shrugged. Sean said he's becoming more and more like Ryan and that is so true. Ryan wet the bed sometimes until he was 9 or 10 years old.

Yes, we are seeing the counselor again Monday and then Tuesday of the following week because she's not working on MLK, Jr. day. After that we will, hopefully, see her every Monday night regularly. I've seen her before. She's the counselor I went to a few times right after having Dylan. I think we'll be ok with her. She did give me a funny look when I told her the story about not going to the Marine Corps Ball because Dylan was/is still nursing. But, all she said about that was to ask if I never pumped and gave a bottle, to which I said I don't. If she asks more, I'll just explain how it works to her.









I think it was really good for Sean to hear from a 3rd party who sees a lot of single and married Marines that our issues are normal for the Marine Corps. and having to go through multiple deployments, especially longer ones like he has had to do. I've been telling him that since he came home after Kellen was born but he wouldn't accept it. He always took it as me attacking the Marine Corps. He still doesn't understand me much, which is really frustrating because I'm not a wishy-washy, guess what I'm thinking kind of person. I tell it like it is but he seems to not believe that. He thinks he has to interpret some hidden message but there isn't one.

It was kind of funny on the drive home because I asked what he thought of it. He said he thought it was a good start. He said one of the main things he got out of it was to learn how I really felt. Um, I've been telling him how I really feel for years now, but ok. So, what new thing did he learn about how I feel? He said that I think of myself as solely a mother because I said that is who I am. Again, um, no, I never said that. What I said was that being a mother is a very big part of who I am right now. That's a perfect example of him trying to interpret what I've said and making it something that it's not. Maybe it's because I said that it's my job and him refusing to do something with the kids the way I do it is like me going to his office and doing his job and telling him to piss off when he tells me that they don't do things that way but they do them this way instead. His job, his title, is who he is. He doesn't work for the Marine Corps. He is a Marine. So maybe the work analogy that I used made him think that I thought of myself as only what I do for my "work".

Also, I've been telling him stuff like that forever. I have always said if I am ever put in a situation where I have to chose what's best for my kids or something, I will choose my kids every time. It started with him becoming Ryan's stepfather. I told him straight up that if he ever put me in a position where I felt I had to choose between the two of them, I would choose Ryan. I told him that was about abuse situations but he took that to me for any little thing. Again, him trying to interpret what I mean instead of just taking my words at face value.

So, the last thing I told him is that maybe he should take whatever he thinks I have meant and tell himself that it's wrong and throw that idea out the window and then think about what's left.







Kind of like me deciding right before I met him that since I always seemed to choose idiot men that I would run the opposite direction from any man that I was immediately attracted to and go for the guy who seemed nice but didn't necessarily get my motor running right away. My first choice was obviously not the best one so I needed to throw those out.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

It is always funny how we hear and interpret things our partners say. We put our own internal spin on things, even when it doesn't need to be there. I'm glad you guys had a good experience.

Ethan's birthday sounds fun! I tried to do a lego cake for DSS 12's birthday one year but I couldn't figure out how to do the raised pieces. I ended up just stacking cake pieces and I bought a Lego Star Wars kit and put it together to put on the cake. The 8 yr old boys all loved it. Have you guys ever done a party at Jump In Jax? One of my friends just had her little boy's birthday party there last weekend and she posted pics on her FB. It looks like a lot of fun. They have a toddler area and then an area for older kids. The age range at his b-day party was 2 to teen and everyone looked like they were enjoying themselves. May be an option if you've never tried it.

I don't know whether Ava's issues right now are teeth or the abx aren't helping her ear. Ugh. She keeps her hand in her mouth pretty much the whole day. I called the nurse last night because even after she had had ibuprofen, she was still screaming for DH. He got her settled and to bed so the nurse said wait to see how she was this morning. She was happy and smiley until about lunchtime then started getting crabby. Ugh. I don't know. And this waking at 3 or 4 AM and wanting to play crap is going to drive me bonkers. But she's WIDE awake. I just don't get it. She was totally happy as long as I wasn't trying to keep her in bed.


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> Ethan's birthday sounds fun! I tried to do a lego cake for DSS 12's birthday one year but I couldn't figure out how to do the raised pieces. I ended up just stacking cake pieces and I bought a Lego Star Wars kit and put it together to put on the cake. The 8 yr old boys all loved it. Have you guys ever done a party at Jump In Jax? One of my friends just had her little boy's birthday party there last weekend and she posted pics on her FB. It looks like a lot of fun. They have a toddler area and then an area for older kids. The age range at his b-day party was 2 to teen and everyone looked like they were enjoying themselves. May be an option if you've never tried it.


I have been to Jump In Jax. I'm not a fan. I don't think it's very well supervised. The last time we were there Kellen smashed his mouth into Ethan's head because he went down a slide too soon after Ethan went down and bounced up and they bonked. That wouldn't concern me too much because stuff happens except that when I looked around I noticed there was no one who worked there watching any of the bouncers or supervising when kids could go on things. While I think that a lot of that should be the parents' responsibility, the place has some liability in that and should provide a safe environment in the same way that lifeguards at the pool man the slides and diving boards. It was impossible for me to keep track of everyone in there.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> I don't know whether Ava's issues right now are teeth or the abx aren't helping her ear. Ugh. She keeps her hand in her mouth pretty much the whole day. I called the nurse last night because even after she had had ibuprofen, she was still screaming for DH. He got her settled and to bed so the nurse said wait to see how she was this morning. She was happy and smiley until about lunchtime then started getting crabby. Ugh. I don't know. And this waking at 3 or 4 AM and wanting to play crap is going to drive me bonkers. But she's WIDE awake. I just don't get it. She was totally happy as long as I wasn't trying to keep her in bed.


Poor little thing. I would think, if it was teething, the ibuprofen would help. You could try some warm olive oil in her ears. That is supposed to be soothing. Warm olive oil with garlic is even better. Most of the time, ear infections don't require abx. The abx may be making her feel bad, too. I got sick from abx the last time I took them and had to stop before I finished.

It is funny in way how others interpret what we say. However, when you've been with someone for 13 years it seems to me they should have figured out that no interpretation is needed.







As I've been thinking about things I've been having not getting really annoyed at all the things that he still does not get. I am really shocked that he would say he finally knows how I feel. I'm not one to hide or disguise how I feel or expect the other person to read my mind. I am very open and honest and blunt about it, maybe too much so. I think he's stuck in the idea that women don't say straight out what they really want or feel and it's up to the man to try to figure it out and isn't thinking of me as the person and individual. I am not like that. Anyway...

I know I've been complaining about him a lot. I'm really not complaining so much as just trying to get things off my chest. I feel like I need to be completely honest and tell someone what I'm really thinking and feeling. If I can get it out of my head, it seems to dissipate faster. If I keep it inside because I don't want to sound like I'm always bitching about my husband or whatever, it festers. I do appreciate you all letting me put all of this out there.

A friend of mine on Facebook posted a link to a blog post about how someone had had a good marriage for 15 years or something like that. She had a list of 10 things to do or not do to keep your marriage good. I didn't agree with everything but there was one thing about having a husband pact with girlfriends that I really liked. The idea was to have at least one girlfriend to whom you could complain about your husband without her judging or trying to fix things and her understanding a week later when you are back to all love and giggles with the same man you were ready to kill before. I loved that.


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## AnnieA (Nov 26, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MarineWife*
> 
> I know I've been complaining about him a lot. I'm really not complaining so much as just trying to get things off my chest. I feel like I need to be completely honest and tell someone what I'm really thinking and feeling. If I can get it out of my head, it seems to dissipate faster. If I keep it inside because I don't want to sound like I'm always bitching about my husband or whatever, it festers. I do appreciate you all letting me put all of this out there.
> 
> A friend of mine on Facebook posted a link to a blog post about how someone had had a good marriage for 15 years or something like that. She had a list of 10 things to do or not do to keep your marriage good. I didn't agree with everything but there was one thing about having a husband pact with girlfriends that I really liked. The idea was to have at least one girlfriend to whom you could complain about your husband without her judging or trying to fix things and her understanding a week later when you are back to all love and giggles with the same man you were ready to kill before. I loved that.


I totally get that. I really do. And I'm happy that we're here to hold that space with you so that you know that you are being heard and that your frustration is a real thing. I think we all know that you do love your DH just as he loves you and the boys. We've met him, remember? Unless he's the world's greatest actor, he's a devoted and caring father, albeit not the most observant.







Vent away.

I called DH on my dinner break and Ava was totally fine except she was pissed that I was interrupting the start of "BUBBLE", her new word for bath. So she doesn't appear to be in pain. She has her 18 month WBV next Friday so unless she's totally acting out of sorts, I'll just have her regular pedi give her ears the once over when we are there for that.

Talk to me about hand washing and hand sanitizer. I see people on FB and in real life washing the crap out of their hands and their kids' hands as well as using hand sanitizer. This may sound super gross but a lot of days, the only time Ava's hands get washed are when she's in the bathtub, even when we are out shopping, etc. I have a half-baked idea that excessive handwashing and hand sanitizing can actually make people sick. Am I totally off base here? Ava is hardly sick compared to my nieces or other kids I know here locally. Is it just chance?


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> I totally get that. I really do. And I'm happy that we're here to hold that space with you so that you know that you are being heard and that your frustration is a real thing. I think we all know that you do love your DH just as he loves you and the boys. We've met him, remember? Unless he's the world's greatest actor, he's a devoted and caring father, albeit not the most observant.
> 
> ...


Thank you for that. You don't know how good it makes feel for someone else to say that they see how Sean cares for us. Sometimes I get so caught up in the little things that I don't see that.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AnnieA*
> 
> I called DH on my dinner break and Ava was totally fine except she was pissed that I was interrupting the start of "BUBBLE", her new word for bath. So she doesn't appear to be in pain. She has her 18 month WBV next Friday so unless she's totally acting out of sorts, I'll just have her regular pedi give her ears the once over when we are there for that.
> 
> Talk to me about hand washing and hand sanitizer. I see people on FB and in real life washing the crap out of their hands and their kids' hands as well as using hand sanitizer. This may sound super gross but a lot of days, the only time Ava's hands get washed are when she's in the bathtub, even when we are out shopping, etc. I have a half-baked idea that excessive handwashing and hand sanitizing can actually make people sick. Am I totally off base here? Ava is hardly sick compared to my nieces or other kids I know here locally. Is it just chance?


Glad Ava seems to be doing better. I love that she got mad that you interrupted her bubble bath. I would me bad, too.









I only wash Dylan's hands when he gets something on them like ketchup or ranch dressing. I do wipe them periodically when I change him if he sticks his fingers in his butt. We never use hand sanitizer. I refuse. I wash my hands after using the bathroom and other times when I feel like they are dirty, like when cooking or after doing laundry if I feel like I got detergent on them. I tell Ethan and Kellen to wash their hands after using the toilet and before eating or handling food. I think Ethan is pretty good about that, at least the bathroom thing. Kellen, not so much.

I do think hand washing is important but not a gazillion times a day. Only when hands are dirty. I think using hand sanitizer is completely unnecessary and may actually be harmful.


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## akind1 (Jul 16, 2009)

Plain old handwashing is the best defense against nasty germs. Unless you are in situations that require it (like healthcare or childcare) I think a few times a day - if that - should be plenty. Our kids' hands get washed around mealtimes and baths, and whenever they might get sticky.

I have a couple beefs with hand sanitizer 1) it's overused - seriously 2)most are alcohol based, and dry out your skin, used during a particularly dry time of year, your hands are likely to get dry and cracked which the cracks are open sores for germs. 3) not all germs are bad.

In handwashing class they teach the 3 main ingredients of a good wash are friction, soap, and warm water. Believe it or not, the most important part is friction.that's what gets rid of most of the bad guys. you really don't need special antibacterial soap.

this is a pretty mainstream article, but still, I think a decent one: http://thestir.cafemom.com/healthy_living/128285/hand_washing_101_tips_you

And even in their list of things, most of those kids won't be doing (raw chicken, contacts, etc)

No matter how well someone knows us, I think it helps immeasurabley to have whatever we are saying reinforced by a 3rd party. It's like hearing it for the first time. Why, I don't know, but it's true. I really hope you can manage to continue to go.

Annie - glad Ava's feeling more herself.

I'm fine - 32 weeks today! - time is flying, I need to work on a budget as soon as I figure out what my paycheck is going to look like this year. I've increased my FSA, and then taxes are going up 2%. joy. Need to pay for the baby stuff! I really, really, want some NB AIO (8-10 I think) for out and about. buying used, I think I can do that for under $100. And I will easily recoup all the money spent. And they are cute. But I have to have the $$ up front. Or I could just spend (or we may be given) 20-40 on disposables for out and about. No money recouped, but less up front. DH is letting me decide. yay.

DH remarked last night how big I am. I honestly don't think I was this big with Norah at this point. need to do some comparison pics. I also feel like he's lower. I am really hoping he comes a little sooner than 41+6 this time.

ETA: comparison shot (31 weeks with N, 32 weeks (today) with T, 33 weeks with N)


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## MarineWife (May 1, 2004)

January thread: http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1371874/january-2013-rockstar-mamas

Hm, Kat, I don't know if you look bigger. Your belly does look a little different, maybe more pointy rather than rounded out over your whole belly. I don't see your belly lower. Actually, it kind of looks to me like N was lower at 33w.


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