# Locking a toddler in her room at night



## sobamom (Nov 9, 2010)

Hi everyone,

I need advice







! Sorry, but a bit of background info, first: DD is 29 months old and is somewhat unusual in that she has almost always preferred sleeping in her crib *without* me being in the room. If I'm there--or, god forbid, attempt to co-sleep with her--she thinks it's play time. And she's like the energizer bunny--you know--and she does NOT eventually crash from exhaustion. Needless to say, going on vacation and sharing a hotel room with her has always been hell and I've never enjoyed traveling, ever since she was born.

So...this morning, I finally saw what I've been dreading for months. She's finally grown tall enough to get her foot up the side of the crib and it's only a matter of time before she attempts to climb out. Which means, I guess, that it's time to plan for the toddler-bed transition.

I have two questions. One, of course, is about locking a child into her room. I don't want to be talked out of it--I think . I feel, considering DD's personality, that it's the best solution. But I'm wondering about practical things, like how to lock a kid in (oh dear, that sounds wrong). We are currently renting a place, and the doors don't use knobs but lever-type handles--so we can't use door-knob covers, as I've read about elsewhere on this forum. Also, do I need to invest in a video monitor, so I can make sure she's not doing anything dangerous in there?

Second question: We already have a mattress on the floor of her room, and I was hoping to just use that. But I know DD rolls around a lot in her sleep, and I was curious if there is anything out there that can be used as a barrier around the mattress.

Thanks so much in advance.


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## csekywithlove (Feb 25, 2010)

I would not lock her in her room. The thought actually turns my stomach. That could be very hard on your DD. Maybe this will help:

My DH has always put DSS (32 months) in his own bed. DSS has NEVER co slept with DH, bio mom, etc. I can literally count four times in his life that he fell asleep cartoons in our bed for nap time. My DH had a lot of trouble when DSS was your daughter's age with bed time. The best thing that I found is to make bed time seem fun. If you put her to bed at say 8:30, play with her hard for the hour before. I would run and play with DSS for an hour or so before bedtime. Then, change into a clean diaper, get some water for bed time, go to the bedroom with him and read a story. Lame as it sounds, read to the kid. At first I read every night for a week at least 3 books. But I was patient. Slowly he got to where he didn't ask for a book. Sometimes he puts himself to bed. Like tonight he told DH he wanted to go to bed. So he did. This was six months ago. DH and I have full nights of sleep, unless DSS is sick and even then he refuses to co sleep. He loves his toddler bed and the fact that it is HIS space. Now yes there are nights where he doesn't want to go to sleep but that is a normal toddler and it is nights like that that we are patient. We read, we take turns walking around, etc. I personally co slept with my parents until age 6 but my DH has definitely let me know that we can bond and have a good nights rest.


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## sobamom (Nov 9, 2010)

I totally respect your feelings, but to be honest, I don't see the difference between a locked room and a crib--well, the former is larger than the latter--which is where my daughter has happily slept all her life, until now. I definitely would never lock DD into her room while she was awake. Our room is right next to hers, and she is used to calling (loudly) for me, whenever she wants me. I'm also thinking of the dangers or having a child able to roam freely around the home, while I am asleep in my own room at night.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

What about a baby gate at the door? That would allow her to see out and call you in case of need. It would be easily unlatched in an emergency, but it would prevent her from wandering the house. If you have an audio monitor, I don't think that you'd need a video one. A toddler climbing out of a crib isn't exactly silent.


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## MsFortune (Dec 5, 2010)

I think the mattress on the floor thing works well. If she does roll off / fall off the bed, it's not a far drop. We didn't even put cushions around the mattress for my DS. It looks a bit ghetto, but toddler beds seem like a waste of money to me, and twin beds have the roll off danger.

We shut (it does sound so much nicer than "lock"!) DS in his room at night. No video monitor. If you can hear activity, chances are they are up to no good so you might as well go in there. I agree - it's like a big crib. I don't want my son wandering around in the house where he can get into trouble or get hurt.

And they do indeed make door knob handles for the lever handles. Google "child proof door lever handles" and you will get lots of hits.

Good luck!


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## sobamom (Nov 9, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LynnS6*
> 
> What about a baby gate at the door? That would allow her to see out and call you in case of need. It would be easily unlatched in an emergency, but it would prevent her from wandering the house. If you have an audio monitor, I don't think that you'd need a video one. A toddler climbing out of a crib isn't exactly silent.


The thing is that DD is used to the door being closed, so it is not a scary thing, to her. She is used to calling out for me, when she wants me to come get her. And our poorly constructed--and very small--apartment means I can hear every murmur and whimper from her and go to her right away.

I figure if she can scale her crib, it's only a matter of time before she can climb over a baby gate. Also, it wouldn't take much for her to figure out that she could stack up toys and books to give her a boost over--and this seems dangerous to me, as well.


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## sobamom (Nov 9, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MsFortune*
> 
> I think the mattress on the floor thing works well. If she does roll off / fall off the bed, it's not a far drop. We didn't even put cushions around the mattress for my DS. It looks a bit ghetto, but toddler beds seem like a waste of money to me, and twin beds have the roll off danger.
> 
> ...


Heh, yeah, I realized after I posted that my post-title looked rather like a red flag being waved.

Thanks, MsFortune, for the tips!


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sobamom*
> 
> I totally respect your feelings, but to be honest, I don't see the difference between a locked room and a crib--well, the former is larger than the latter--which is where my daughter has happily slept all her life, until now. *I definitely would never lock DD into her room while she was awake.* Our room is right next to hers, and she is used to calling (loudly) for me, whenever she wants me. I'm also thinking of the dangers or having a child able to roam freely around the home, while I am asleep in my own room at night.


Well, if she is sleeping, why bother to lock the door? I don't understand.

If she sleeps when you are not in her room, and she wakes and calls for you, why do think you will need to lock the door? Does she sleep walk?

If you are worried she will wake up and not call for you, or wander the house, I think it might be better to have a baby gate you can block the house off with, or maybe an alarm system that would wake you if she left her room, but not terrorize her?

DS transitioned to a big boy bed at the age of aout 18-20 months. We just stuffed pillows under the open side of the bed and laid the inflatable mattress on the floor in case of rolling.

He still called for us when he woke up even though he could have gotten up himself until he was about 3.5


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sobamom*
> 
> The thing is that DD is used to the door being closed, so it is not a scary thing, to her. She is used to calling out for me, when she wants me to come get her. And our poorly constructed--and very small--apartment means *I can hear every murmur and whimper from her and go to her right away.*
> 
> I figure if she can scale her crib, it's only a matter of time before she can climb over a baby gate. Also, it wouldn't take much for her to figure out that she could stack up toys and books to give her a boost over--and this seems dangerous to me, as well.


so then how will she be able to get out and "wander the house" while you are sleeping? Won't you wake up if you hear her walking around?


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## lovepickles (Nov 16, 2010)

Personally I never liked putting my child in a crib, it felt too much like a cage. So we co-slept. I realize your kid is like the energizer bunny so you resorted to these type of restraints. All kids are different. I accept that some parents use this as a safe/sanity device so I won't comment too much on that. I used to put our daughter in a bouncer right next to the shower while I washed my hair ... so i get the need for conveniences such as this ...

But hear me out on this point:

Using a restraining device is appropriate in certain circumstances like driving in an automobile and providing a safe spot so mom/dad can sleep, shower, etc if need be. It isn't the best option but if spare hands or conscious minds aren't available it is acceptably resorted to. However, when a child reaches certain milestones they must be granted additional liberties. For example I now shower with my child in the bathroom with me, but she is free to roam around with toys on the floor, no more bouncer. Yes she has slipped once or twice and completely unwound a roll of toilet paper but she got over it, as did I. It wasn't fun having her tear up the bathroom but that is kind of what kids do. She didn't do it after a few times. By locking your daughter in her room at night you are only delaying the inevitable escape and communicating a sense of mistrust.

We currently co sleep with our 16 month old daughter on a mattress laid out on the floor. When she started walking it was tough convincing her not to dash out of bed and run around the bedroom but in the end i just laid down with open ears and let her go. She eventually wandered into bed with me and now it is not an issue. She knows she can get up and run around whenever she wants, so the thrill is gone.

The best advice I can give you is to secure your exterior doors but leave the interior as it is during the day. Your child needs to learn how to wind down and be able to self regulate her sleepiness. Eventually she will realize that a dark living room is boring and wander back to her sleeping place or just pass out on the floor. Consider that it may be your agitation that fuels her late night excitement.

I would alternatively suggest that you get a chime of some sort hooked to her door so you know she is up and about. Let her roam but keep your ears and eyes open and act like you are just very very sleepy. Perhaps lay down on the couch and gently supervise for a night or two but don't interfere. It may be hell for a few days but you provide your child with a sense of dignity by treating her as a human being and teaching her about how everyone else decides to go to sleep.

Please reconsider locking your child up at night.


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## sobamom (Nov 9, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hakeber*
> 
> Well, if she is sleeping, why bother to lock the door? I don't understand.
> 
> ...


DD is one of those kids who needs time alone to wind down before sleep. We have our routine together, which ends with a nursing session, but *she* is the one who tells me she's ready to go into the crib and for me to get out  I've heard her singing and talking to herself for as long as 30 minutes after I stepped out of the room. She may be just a little thing, but I respect that she, too, needs some alone time. If I stay in the room with her, she simply will not fall asleep. If the door is open and she can see me outside doing things, she will not fall asleep. She's also a super-light sleeper, who needs total quiet and darkness to sleep and stay asleep. I've already explained above why I think a baby gate wouldn't be a safe idea and I think an alarm system would drive us and the neighbors totally batty  !

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hakeber*
> 
> so then how will she be able to get out and "wander the house" while you are sleeping? Won't you wake up if you hear her walking around?


I don't think DD is the only child capable of mischief without making a lot of noise  I once shared a room with her while staying at my in-law's house and after a rather long, physically painful (imagine books and other solid objects slammed into your face, while you try your best to keep your eyes closed), and torturous session of me pretending to be asleep, I woke up a little later to find her clawing and peeling HUGE strips of the wallpaper off our room wall. I won't go into a lengthy description of why it isn't possibly to make our entire apartment completely safe for a toddler to explore at night without adult supervision, but I do feel it is safer and more practical to make her room completely safe and keep her in there. Okay, one example: We have a rather large shelving unit in our kitchen that isn't secured to the wall and that DD has attempted to climb more than once. If I weren't there to stop her, she'd pull the entire thing down on top of herself and it would cause her considerable injuries. I'd also have to nail every chair and stool to the floor to prevent her from climbing and reaching things she isn't supposed to.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovepickles*
> 
> Personally I never liked putting my child in a crib, it felt too much like a cage. So we co-slept. I realize your kid is like the energizer bunny so you resorted to these type of restraints. All kids are different. I accept that some parents use this as a safe/sanity device so I won't comment too much on that. I used to put our daughter in a bouncer right next to the shower while I washed my hair ... so i get the need for conveniences such as this ...
> 
> ...


I think your argument makes a lot of sense, but I also believe that every freedom we grant a child should come at the right time. When that right time is, of course, is probably something that will never receive a unanimous vote. Look at legalized drinking, for example. Some kids are definitely ready earlier for certain freedoms than others. Truthfully, I only intend to use a lock on my daughter's door for the time it takes her to grow comfortable with her new sleeping arrangements. But I think an important thing to remember is that, as mothers, we probably know our own children and what they can and can't handle.

I've received tons of criticism for things like continuing to breastfeed my daughter on demand, using a carrier with her when we're out and she doesn't want to walk, not putting her in daycare even though I'm told that what she "needs" is to be with kids her own age. I think, on this forum, it's great that people are comfortable and frank with their opinions--and I totally appreciate that everything that's been written has been out of concern for the welfare of my child--but I also hope people will try not to be so quick to judge and also assume that just because something works for them that it should for every other family and child.

I do love hearing all the varying opinions, but I hope we can keep this thread friendly and open-minded!


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

You're right, you did explain about the gate. I missed that before posting....

Can't you just shut the door without locking it?

I understand that a child can get up and make very little noise, but YOU said that the house you live in was poorly made and you can hear "*every murmur and whimper from her *" Obviously your parent's house is not as poorly built, right? You seem to have decided that you can both hear her every move but also cannot trust yourself to wake up if she is up and about...which is it, ya know? You have contradicted every argument you have made for locking her in her room with your own descriptions of your living situation, your daughter's own declaration of being ready to sleep on her own with the door closed, and your keen hearing. I'm trying to point out that subconsciously it seems something inside you knows this is...questionable.

It sounds very much like you came here merely to get confirmation that this was a good idea, regardless of logical fallacies riddling your reasoning for doing so, but I simply cannot wrap my head around how locking a child in her room is ever okay. You have already decided it is...so why did you post this?

Close the door to give her space, yes. Install a *door* in the hallway (you can get those sliding track vinyl folding doors to install in a hallway for like 40 bucks at Home Depot) that allows safe access between her room and your bedroom, but locks off the rest of the house, sure, but lock her in a room ALONE so she cannot get out and more importantly get to YOU...at the age of TWO? Are you sure you know where you're posting this? This is an ATTACHMENT parenting board...if a child needs space to sleep I have no qualms with that. I don't think AP means mandatory co-sleeping. BOTH of my kids were like that, DD needing her own space a LITTLE later than her brother. After stories and songs and snuggles I close the door and they settle in to sleep, but I have never locked the door to keep them in, and when they are fully asleep I open the door so I hear them better. I guess I just don't understand what sort of answers you were expecting to get on a board that promotes AP.

It would be great to have an open-minded discussion about this, but you are not really open to other ideas or solutions, it seems. You seem to just want confirmation that it is "okay" to lock the door of your child's room, which apart from presenting issues of safety (complete and total fire hazard!) is not in keeping with the tennets of AP, respecting a child's personal freedoms, and giving them a loving environment of trust and safety. If that is not as important to you as the knowledge that your child cannot escape her room and must wait for you to come get her in the morning that is your choice, and a valid one, but I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for people here to condone that.

Good luck!


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## sobamom (Nov 9, 2010)

Hi Rebekah,

If you read my original post, I actually started this thread to ask about rather practical information (locks and low boundaries around a mattress set on the floor), not to receive approval or affirmation. I actually learned about door-knob covers through this forum and I know for a fact that there are moms here that use them to keep their children (safe) in their rooms at night. I've only taken the time to answer your and others' questions because I appreciate the concern and want to assure you I'm not making these choices without valid reasons.

So while there are many here who may agree with your opinions, I think it is...wrong, I suppose, to tell me that I shouldn't be on this board because one of my decisions isn't one you approve of. It is an AP board but I'm pretty sure not every single parent here does every single thing the same way or follows every "rule."

Sincerely,

Rachel


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## starling&diesel (Nov 24, 2007)

What *hakeber* said.









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hakeber*
> 
> You're right, you did explain about the gate. I missed that before posting....
> 
> ...


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sobamom*
> 
> Hi Rebekah,
> 
> ...


1) You said; "I don't want to be talked out of it--*I think . * " the latter two words of which I took as a clear invitation to debate the validity of this choice. If you did not intend that perhaps you should clarify in your OP. 

2) you said "I think it is...wrong, I suppose, to tell me that I shouldn't be on this board because one of my decisions isn't one you approve of. It is an AP board but I'm pretty sure not every single parent here does every single thing the same way or follows every 'rule.' " This is very interesting on two counts, one because I never said you shouldn't be on these boards, I just think you need to consider the reactions you are going to get when you ask for advice on how to basically go against the very fiber of everything most of the mother's here stand for. That is why this community was formed to help OURSELVES make better choices as parents and to redirect one another when we lose our grounding. Secondly, you are quite right. There are thousand solutions to every problem. Some of them are in keeping with the values of this community and some are not. When people here see something in a post that they think is wrong, expect them to argue with you and ask you to back up what you have to say with clear logic and coherency. This is how we learn here.

Furthermore, most of the mothers HERE that I know who use the door knob protectors use them for the outside doors, and bathroom doors, or for rooms the children should not have access to. Those who do use them for locking children in their rooms tend to get similar criticism from many mothers on this board. That being said, just because people criticize and judge your decision as wrong doesn't mean you have to stop doing it. You as a parent have the right to choose your own priorities regardless of what others think. If it is your conviction that it is okay to lock your child in her room at night, go for it. I believe it is both unsafe and unnecessary. But ya know...it's your kid.

Most genuinely, welcome to the boards, and I hope you get a lot out of your participation here. Lord knows over the years these women have helped me see inconsitencies with my philosophy and choices and desires for who I want to be as parent. It has always stung a little at first, but being able to converse with experienced mothers who have ultimately the same goals as I have in terms of the relationship I want to have with my kids really has helped me find better and better ways to parent. Good luck!

ETA: it is also not MY point of view alone. I did not make up the concept of attachment parenting and nor am I the AP police. I am merely pointing out the glaring inconsistencies in your argument for doing this and in your insistence of asking for advice on how to do this from a community of parents who would rather ask why it is necessary at all.


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## MsFortune (Dec 5, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hakeber*
> I am merely pointing out the glaring inconsistencies in your argument for doing this and in your insistence of asking for advice on how to do this from a community of parents who would rather ask why it is necessary at all.


I did not realize that you spoke for all the parents on this board. Or that there is a mandatory requirement that all posters follow AP as defined by some of the parents of this board.

I actually thought that a lot of the parents on here get judged for their parenting choices so they would be more supportive of the choices that other parents make... ?


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

I just wanted to check about the doorknob cover usage here, and so I did a quick search and the first 20 results for Doorknob Cover (I didn't look past that) were all inquiries about using them on outside doors, office doors, living area doors, basement doors or bathroom doors. Not one, apart from this thread, was asking about how to lock their kids in their rooms.


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## lawmama1984 (Mar 17, 2009)

I see a lot of defensiveness starting up here, and I just wanted to say that I don't think hakeber was trying to speak for everyone on this board or be the "AP police" or whatever. But it seems pretty obvious to me that a thread on locking your child in their room would not be very well received on an AP board.

Apart from that, I tend to agree with everything hakeber said.


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## MsFortune (Dec 5, 2010)

Wow, the thought police are out in full force today


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## lawmama1984 (Mar 17, 2009)

No need to be snarky, I was just giving my opinion. As I can see you aren't receptive, I won't engage you further. Good luck!


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MsFortune*
> 
> I did not realize that you spoke for all the parents on this board. Or that there is a mandatory requirement that all posters follow AP as defined by some of the parents of this board.
> 
> I actually thought that a lot of the parents on here get judged for their parenting choices so they would be more supportive of the choices that other parents make... ?


I am not sure what that last sentence means, so I will let you edit and then respond. I never said I spoke for all the parents here. I am merely summarizing the basic mission statement of the board, which one can read when they join the site, and one can summize if they spend any amount of time actually reading the website or the forums.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

And For the record, Sobamom, I am not judging YOU as a mother. I am judging this choice. I do not think is the best choice you have available based on what YOU have described here. That does not mean I think you are bad mom or that your choice is invalid. It is merely something I would not do, and I urge you not to do because I think that is part of what we do here at MDC, we urge others to reconsider choices we think could be better.

Of course you are free to ignore this advice. :-D

Having said my piece, I'll bow out now.


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## lawmama1984 (Mar 17, 2009)

I think she meant that, because we are often the recipients of judgment for our parenting decisions in the general public, we would be more supportive of each other here WRT the decisions we make.

Which, I think, is true, as long as these decisions generally fall into line with the tenets of AP and this board's general purpose. But I am genuinely surprised that someone would expect someone to be able to post something that isn't really in line with AP philosophy (IMO) and get support for it.


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## csekywithlove (Feb 25, 2010)

AP and all aside, who could not be somewhat upset/ worried after reading the first post? I was. But I think that coming to the forum and asking for advice is the best thing. Let's try to focus on that.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lawmama1984*
> 
> I think she meant that, because we are often the recipients of judgment for our parenting decisions in the general public, we would be more supportive of each other here WRT the decisions we make.
> 
> Which, I think, is true, as long as these decisions generally fall into line with the tenets of AP and this board's general purpose. But I am genuinely surprised that someone would expect someone to be able to post something that isn't really in line with AP philosophy (IMO) and get support for it.


Is that what you meant MsFortune?

Well, I can see that, but this doesn't mean that we don't call one another on our BS when (and we are ALL guilty of it at one time or another!) we are sharing ideas we know are not really great ideas, that we are hoping to have justified so that we can make a choice that isn't in keeping with our core beliefs because it is the easier choice or the choice that offers us the most convenience. We all do it, but most people know better than to expect others at MDC to smile and nod and pat our backs when we do. We either keep those little nuggets to ourselves as a guilty little blemish on our parenting resumes, or we expect people to argue with us and ultimately convince not to take that action.

I speak only for myself, but this community has a long history of calling people on bad choices and offering up better choices in their place, and I am not going to cut with that tradition because it makes someone feel bad, or judged or hurts their feelings. That is MY way of offering support and community. Anyone is free to block my posts out if they only subscribe to the cheerleading and hand shaking form of support.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *csekywithlove*
> 
> AP and all aside, who could not be somewhat upset/ worried after reading the first post? I was. But I think that coming to the forum and asking for advice is the best thing. Let's try to focus on that.


Exactly and I think this is a great idea, except for the fact that advice the OP wants seems to be limited to what sort of locks or locking devices can be used, not what to do instead.


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## treeoflife3 (Nov 14, 2008)

I found that my kid won't come out of her room at all even though she can now, being in a toddler bed and able to open the door. She'll whine for me from her bed or even knock on her door and turn the handle while calling out to me, but she won't come out til I tell her she can. No clue why as I've never taught her to stay in her room.

Personally, locking a kid in her room freaks me out. I'd worry about something happening to ME leaving them trapped in their room. At what age does one stop locking the door? It definitely would make me nervous. I have a tall gate though that I could always employ if necessary or I would just get a door alarm for when her door opened or something if she really enjoyed getting into things she shouldn't in the middle of the night.

You might find though that your kiddo won't leave her room like mine, or will only go straight to you when she gets out. Considering how best to keep her in her room might be energy wasted. Not all kids want to wander the house in the middle of the night risking dangers.


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## sobamom (Nov 9, 2010)

Absolutely no defensiveness on my part, I swear  I'm in fact doing my best to keep things peaceful, but I also feel compelled to answer Hakeber's posts.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hakeber*
> 
> 1) You said; "I don't want to be talked out of it--*I think . * " the latter two words of which I took as a clear invitation to debate the validity of this choice. If you did not intend that perhaps you should clarify in your OP.
> 
> ...


1. Yes, I did write "I don't want to be talked out of it--*I think .*" I apologize if it was misleading, but it was merely my way of saying I'd most certainly welcome arguments opposing my decision, but truly my main goal was merely to get some practical answers I mentioned above.

2. Okay, sorry, you never actually told me to get off these boards 

3. I must admit I'm scratching my head, though, at hakeber's accusations that I've written anything with "glaring inconsistencies." Yes, I jolt awake if my daughter whimpers in her sleep from the other room and I am quick to go to her if she calls for me. But I'd have to have superhuman abilities--no matter how thin these darn walls are--to awaken merely from my daughter coming out of her room and going into the living room. By the time any sound of dangerous activity were to awaken me and get me out of bed, I fear it would be too late. Also, if there were a fire, DD would be just as helpless if she were in a crib (she's in there right now), and yet I sense that by AP standards, a crib is acceptable? I don't get that. From what I understand of door-knob covers, they don't impede the opening of a door or even literally "lock" it, so much as prevent the covered handle from being easily turned, so how is it a fire hazard?

4. I can't do serious home-improvement work on this apartment--like installing doors--because it is merely a rental.

5. AP may require that one respect a child's personal freedoms, but not, I suspect, at the expense of their safety. I guess hakeber and others believe that I am merely thinking of my own convenience, but I must protest this assumption. She wrote, "If that is not as important to you as the knowledge that your child cannot escape her room and must wait for you to come get her in the morning that is your choice." Another wrong assumption. I have never let my daughter CIO. If she cries, I am up and by her side. How I wish I could dictate what time we start the morning--LOL! We start it when SHE decides we do, whether it's 4am or, praise the gods, 6:30am.

Okay, way past my bedtime, so please don't read my subsequent silence as evidence that I've been shamed and run away


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## csekywithlove (Feb 25, 2010)

Quick question. Are you worried about your DD getting out of bed in the middle of the night, in the hour to two hours after you actually lay her in her crib, or both?


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## sobamom (Nov 9, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *csekywithlove*
> 
> Quick question. Are you worried about your DD getting out of bed in the middle of the night, in the hour to two hours after you actually lay her in her crib, or both?


I'm definitely concerned about her exploring the apartment while I'm asleep--totally frightens me.


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

OP, I totally understand your fears. Our 2 1/2 year old currently co sleeps, but will be transitioning into her own room pretty soon. She CAN climb out of her crib, and I'm scratching my head as to how to make sure she can't roam the house at night. On the one hand, I don't want her to be able to get out of her room, but on the other hand I want her to be able to escape in case of a fire or something. I also, of course want her to be able to crawl into bed with us at night if she wants to.
I think we will probably get a good baby monitor so we can really hear what she's doing. I also *doubt* that she'll get into trouble at night, but maybe that's wishful thinking. The only room in our house that's potentially dangerous is the kitchen and we can lock that door.
Another thing to consider is that there are very good baby gates out there that are really tall. We used to have one that was at least 3 1/2 feet. I also think that installing a bell on the door would be a great idea. Have you ever looked at the company One Step Ahead? They sell a lot of safety stuff for kids. Maybe they have something easy to install.
Good luck!


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## FiveLittleMonkeys (Jan 21, 2009)

I have an almost 2 year old (and 4 other older children). While the youngest is not in toddler bed yet, we used a tall walk thru gate at their doors with the others. We put it in the frame in a way so that the door could still close and the gate was on the outside of the door (if that makes sense).

Not even my uber climbing DS could scale this gate. My Weimaraner can't even jump it. I did a search for it, and found it on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/Summer-Infant-Secure-Extra-Walk-Thru/dp/B0000DEW91/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1305993063&sr=8-2

The only way we would have ever been able to lock a child in their room in any house we've ever lived in is to turn the doorknob around. It would worry me to do this mostly from a safety aspect in emergency situations (ie. fire, evacuations, etc.)


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

What about this?
http://www.specialtyalarms.com/site/1313932/product/15-101


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## CarrieMF (Mar 7, 2004)

When our girls stopped using the crib we put a mattress on the floor. It was big enough that they wouldn't roll off. A crib mattress is not that big so she is used to only rolling so far before hitting a barrier, she may fall off the bed, she may not. If she does fall off the mattress won't be high enough for her to hurt herself, she may not even wakeup.

When we moved them we started with nap time on the mattress & then moved to the mattress at night.

I would start with naps & see how your dd does. You are presuming she is going to do all the stuff which she may not even do. You mentioned her pulling wallpaper off & hitting you once when you were sleeping in the same room at a relatives but you also said she doesn't sleep when you are in the room so if you hadn't been in there she may not have done that stuff, yk.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sobamom*
> 
> Absolutely no defensiveness on my part, I swear  I'm in fact doing my best to keep things peaceful, but I also feel compelled to answer Hakeber's posts.
> 
> 1. Yes, I did write "I don't want to be talked out of it--*I think .*" I apologize if it was misleading, but it was merely my way of saying I'd most certainly welcome arguments opposing my decision, but truly my main goal was merely to get some practical answers I mentioned above.


hmmmm, it doesn't seem you are welcoming arguments. It seems you are not interested in hearing arguments against it at all. I am glad you are reading what has been said with a more open mind than it appears.

*3. I must admit I'm scratching my head, though, at hakeber's accusations that I've written anything with "glaring inconsistencies." Yes, I jolt awake if my daughter whimpers in her sleep from the other room and I am quick to go to her if she calls for me. But I'd have to have superhuman abilities--no matter how thin these darn walls are--to awaken merely from my daughter coming out of her room and going into the living room. By the time any sound of dangerous activity were to awaken me and get me out of bed, I fear it would be too late. Also, if there were a fire, DD would be just as helpless if she were in a crib (she's in there right now), and yet I sense that by AP standards, a crib is acceptable? I don't get that. From what I understand of door-knob covers, they don't impede the opening of a door or even literally "lock" it, so much as prevent the covered handle from being easily turned, so how is it a fire hazard? *

Accusations? So you don't think it is contradictory to say:

1) I wake at the slightest noise from DD + I am afraid she will wander the house and wreak havoc while I am sleeping.

2) DD asks me to leave the room when she is ready and then she falls asleep on her own + I am afraid she will get up and open the door and wander the house and never sleep.

3) I only keep the door closed when she is sleeping + I need to keep the door closed in case she wakes up.

I truly fail to see how you can hear a whimper but not hear a door opening, but if you say so, then I guess you are stuck with no other option than to lock your child in her room. I really liked the PP's suggestion of wind chimes in front of the door...surely that would wake you, right?

Some people like cribs some don't, neither here nor there for me. For me it is not about a crib or no crib, it is about having a door you cannot open with ease (how can a device that limits the turning of the handle not impede the opening of the door? I have never seen or had the need to use these, so I can't really understand this concept...I thought the whole point was to impede her opening the door...can you explain that?) so as to fetch the child quickly. Presumably, if your child is in a crib you leave the door to their room open before you go to bed, right? That's why now you are considering locking her door? I guess maybe I am just hyper paranoid about fire and break ins and things like that, and if a child is able to roam about a room, but they want to get out there might be even more damage caused in the room...but it's your kid, Soba Mom (and would you please address me personally rather than in the third person if we are conversing), as you said: you know best. I am just trying to offer a difference of opinion and give you alternatives to locking the door from her side.

*4. I can't do serious home-improvement work on this apartment--like installing doors--because it is merely a rental. *

The folding doors are not a major installment and can be placed in and taken out with little to no damage done to the apartment It usually requires about four to six screws. Easy in and easy out As a renter myself I have put these in and taken them out with no damage and no deduction from my deposit.

*5. AP may require that one respect a child's personal freedoms, but not, I suspect, at the expense of their safety. I guess hakeber and others believe that I am merely thinking of my own convenience, but I must protest this assumption. She wrote, "If that is not as important to you as the knowledge that your child cannot escape her room and must wait for you to come get her in the morning that is your choice." Another wrong assumption. I have never let my daughter CIO. If she cries, I am up and by her side. How I wish I could dictate what time we start the morning--LOL! We start it when SHE decides we do, whether it's 4am or, praise the gods, 6:30am. *

Say what? I never said you let her CIO...I am so confused where this came from. I am merely saying if having her in her room until you go and get her is more important to you and you think will keep her safer than go for it. I disagree. I think it was "in the morning" part that was confusing. That was my fault. Replace that with "any time she wants to get up". That's what I MEANT. Sorry about that.

I think there HAS to be a better way to keep her safe and feeling safe without locking her in her room. You might even find as Treeoflife and I have both said that your DD doesn't even care to explore and the whole conversation will be moot.

FWIW, my SIL and BIL lock their daughter in her room at night and have since she was about your DD's age. She is now almost 6. It is a huge battle every night and something they both wish they had never started because now they genuinely feel they have no other choice. The list of damage DN has wreaked on her room includes scrawling all over the walls with pens, pencils, and when they took those away she tried her own poop...at the age of three...serious defiance to the locked door. She has scratched the bed posts, ripped up books, and generally expressed her feelings of anger and humiliation at being treated like an infant at the age of two on up. This was NOT a gentle choice they made, and it has come to bite them HARD in the you know what.

There ARE better ways. Think creatively and even ask your landlord if it would be okay to put up folding doors or even real doors. Many Landlords are more generous than the lease makes them out to be especially if you have kids. Who knows? They might even pay for them. ETA: you have a ton of great siuggestions for alternatives here. I hope you are considering them as options.

*Okay, way past my bedtime, so please don't read my subsequent silence as evidence that I've been shamed and run away *

Duly noted. Sweet dreams!


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sobamom*
> 
> I'm definitely concerned about her exploring the apartment while I'm asleep--totally frightens me.


Okay...so you're clearly afraid. This makes more sense. I don't know the lay out of your apartment/house but where is your room in relation to her room? When DS was that age our rooms were next to eachother. I had to close the bathroom door and the kitchen doors and tie the doorknobs of those rooms together so that he couldn't get in them (which in retrospect is probably why it took so long to night potty train, LOL) , but the Living room was still open and hazardous for sure. So we got these pop up tent tunnels and we laid them in a little maze from his door to our bedside and told him if he woke up in the middle of the night he could just crawl through the tunnel and hop into bed with us. Most nights he still waited in his bed for us, but as he got more and more used to his big boy bed he'd use the Mommy and Daddy express tunnel and arrive safe and warm in our big bed. It was a fun way to distract him from trying to open any of the doors. Would your DD be into something like that?


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## MsFortune (Dec 5, 2010)

We close our 2 1/2 year old in his room and he has not turned into a poo-flinging maniac. He sleeps pretty well - generally from 8 PM to 6 AM straight. As a consequence, I get to sleep pretty well, too.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sobamom*
> 
> The thing is that DD is used to the door being closed, so it is not a scary thing, to her. She is used to calling out for me, when she wants me to come get her. And our poorly constructed--and very small--apartment means I can hear every murmur and whimper from her and go to her right away.
> 
> I figure if she can scale her crib, it's only a matter of time before she can climb over a baby gate. Also, it wouldn't take much for her to figure out that she could stack up toys and books to give her a boost over--and this seems dangerous to me, as well.


Ah, but the point of a gate is not to prevent access completely, but to slow them down long enough so you can hear them! So you could close the door and have the gates as insurance.

If you can't find door knob handles for level doors where you are, I'd do a gate. We had a gate at the top of our stairs that had a rail at the bottom and one about 3 feet up across the top. There was nothing in between for a child to get their feet on to climb over. It would take a determined child moving a stool or something to get over. So, while your dd might be able to peel wallpaper without you noticing, I doubt she'd be able to climb a well constructed gate .


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## dauphinette (Nov 13, 2007)

Boy, this has definately been a heated discussion and which I can see both sides of.

I have a three y/o who thankfully happily cosleeps with me so I don't have to worry about any of this but I have wondered about it on behalf of my friend whose 4 y/o sleeps on another floor from her. I have secretly wondered how she sleeps at night knowing he has a pretty scary looking flight of stairs to manuever to get to her, gives me anxiety just thinking about it!

And I have wondered at what age I would feel comfortable from my end with her sleeping say on the other side of the house form me or heck, even in another room. Of course when she is ready to move out of our bed we will be accomodating and it will be fine.

This thread had been very helpful to me giving me MANY ideas to store away for if that day comes sooned rather than later, lovin the windchime idea personally.

I am wondering about something hakebar posted: You said some moms u knew started the whole locking in thing and now they cant stop....but I'm wondering why as the child gets older would they not be able to stop? Just curious as I don't personally agree with the idea AT ALL and agree that there are many other options and I would explore all of the options offered in this thread, but I found that statement to be odd and wondered if there wass just something I had missed...


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MsFortune*
> 
> We close our 2 1/2 year old in his room and he has not turned into a poo-flinging maniac. He sleeps pretty well - generally from 8 PM to 6 AM straight. As a consequence, I get to sleep pretty well, too.


Yes, well if they had just closed the door instead of tying it shut so she could not leave without their coming to get her, she might not have become so combative over staying in bed. She might have slept soundly knowing she could leave and go to her mom whenever she needed. She might have felt safe and loved, instead of scared and imprisoned. Locking and closing, once again, are very different things.

We too closed DS's door when he was little so he could settle and sleep, but if at any time he needed or wanted to come out, he could have opened it any time he liked and I wouldn't have needed a special key or manuever to get to him if I needed to.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LynnS6*
> 
> Ah, but the point of a gate is not to prevent access completely, but to slow them down long enough so you can hear them! So you could close the door and have the gates as insurance.
> 
> If you can't find door knob handles for level doors where you are, I'd do a gate. We had a gate at the top of our stairs that had a rail at the bottom and one about 3 feet up across the top. There was nothing in between for a child to get their feet on to climb over. It would take a determined child moving a stool or something to get over. So, while your dd might be able to peel wallpaper without you noticing, I doubt she'd be able to climb a well constructed gate .


Yes! ITA. Most baby gates are much much higher than the average crib bars with the matress at the lowest setting, and are not built for climbing. By the time she were to get toys stacked and piled up to climb over you'd hear what was going on.

Sobamom, I know it is really hard watching your little ones move on to new milestones especially when it is before WE are ready, but 29 months is fairly old to still be in a crib, and by now you should be able to discuss what is an appropriate thing to do when she wakes up. She was younger when she peeled that wallpaper. Maybe it's time to give her a chance to earn your trust again. I think she at least deserves a CHANCE at it before resorting to locks and restraints, do you?


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## MsFortune (Dec 5, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hakeber*
> st closed the door instead of tying it shut so she could not leave without their coming to get her, she might not have become so combative over staying in bed. She might have slept soundly knowing she could leave and go to her mom whenever she needed. She might have felt safe and loved, instead of scared and imprisoned. Locking and closing, once again, are very different things.


That's a lot of projection. We don't know what she was feeling. Kids in their room do not generally feel scared, and I'm sure she felt safe and loved unless her parents were horrible. Maybe they were, but tying the door shut does not make them horrible parents. She may have some emotional and behavioral problems that have nothing to do with her sleeping arrangements.

Kids are "locked" into cribs, they are "locked" into car seats, they are "locked" into carriers. Locking them into a room is just like locking them into a bigger crib. They are safe, they are usually comfortable, and they are contained.

When I said I close him in, you can consider it locking. We have a child-proof cap on the knob in DS' room so he cannot open it. You either have to know how to use the knob (which we do and he does not) or you have to open from the outside. This is what the OP was talking about doing, and you can consider it locking or not, depending on your point of view.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

May I ask what about it bothers you? DOes your child frequently wake to play at night? Is your LO a sleep walker (which I've had and it DOES present a whole diffrent frame of thinking) can she even open a closed door? Does you home have extra safety concerns such as balconies or stairs?

What about co-rooming? I have now two overall better crib than cosleepers but I still strongly feel wee ones need to be with in arms reach and ear shot of a parent for the long haul so we still co roomed. Kid got there crib space but we were just a few feet away..

I also did use those door knobs in 2 ways 1) to prevent the latter in her own room toddler game of comming out 2,000 times incidently the knob for MINE was her signal it was time to not play it NEVER bothered her she'd try once go Oh okay nighty night







shes nutty like that though once she was settled and such or before I went to bed I always made sure the door was open again.. No ones "locked" with sleeping parents. We also used it one OUR door when she co roomed because she was a sleep walker and the dangerous kind.. THe one that would sleep walk and try to eat household cleaners or trash.. We once found her standing on the desk of her room leaning against the glass on her partially open window (thankfully not opened enough) tells us that shes had to stop the red birds.. second floor window nothing but concrete below... In that cause we DID need to engage with locks but at the same time we NEEDED to keep her with us..

So in all this my point.. IF your seriously scared and have reasons to believe you child will be in danger then you need to find a way to have a better view.. A door charm/bell something a video moniter something to alert you.. Locking all night is dangerous and can be very frightening.. A non mobile early walker HAS to relay on you and they know no diffrence and should relay on you to respond ASAP if needed... a Walker able to get out should be able to and they will by nature try before calling out.. in a fire ect those moments loss could make all the diffrence.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sobamom*
> 
> I'm definitely concerned about her exploring the apartment while I'm asleep--totally frightens me.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dauphinette*
> 
> You said some moms u knew started the whole locking in thing and now they cant stop....but I'm wondering why as the child gets older would they not be able to stop? Just curious as I don't personally agree with the idea AT ALL and agree that there are many other options and I would explore all of the options offered in this thread, but I found that statement to be odd and wondered if there wass just something I had missed...


Well not some moms, just my SIL to be specific. It is merely from where I take a cautionary tale. The reason they now continue to do so, and feel they have to until she "calms down" is because she has not learned to self-regulate her behavior around the house. There has been no learning curve. Learning how to be a responsible family member in the house is a skill that is learned often through trial and error in safe regulated ways. If they are *locked* in their rooms they never get the chance to figure these things out, when will they? When you do you decide to trust them? If you wait too long they might, as in the case of my DN take revenge every opportunity they can. They might not, but I'd rather not chance that when there ARE ways to make a room safe, to block off unsafe rooms, and to provide them with access to your room if they need you.

DN has clearly decided that this was her parents way of controlling her and oppressing her (I KNOW not every kid will have this reaction, but if you have a spirited, energetic, explorer who has been destructive in the past when left alone and unoccupied...I would say it's playing with fire to use restraining techniques to control their damage) They now have a child who has never been trusted on her own to sleep in her own room without being restrained and at the first sign that they have forgotten she takes her revenge, or when we go on vacation and she can't be restrained she tortures them running out of her room every five seconds and bouncing all over and refusing to go to bed. She knows it is her power card. At some point, in the not too distant future I would bet donuts to dollars that she will be locking them OUT.

I would not have been comfortable with DS being on a different floor from us at the age of 2.5 but we had to move in with my MIL for a few months while FIL was very ill and the way it worked out was that DS was on the first floor and we were up a very steep staircase in the attic. It scared the bejeezus out of me and I was not at all happy, but we gave it a shot the first night. We said when you wake up call for us and we'll come get you because the stairs are really steep, okay? And he stayed in his room and called for us but since we were so far upstairs we didn't hear him, so he came to the door, opened it, and shouted again and then we heard him and went down and got him. At 2 and half, IME, they can understand rules and instructions, especially about dangers and mommy being really scared. I think it is much better for the parent child relationship to foster a respect of rules and morning routines through trial and error than door locking mechanisms.

BTW, we are back on the same floor now for the last almost 3 years. We have an open door policy, in fact we have disabled all the locks that came with the interior doors except for our master bathroom and the office. It is much safer for us this way.

There have been some really great suggestions here. I love the windchime one, too!

FWIW, my DD is a climber too and is now herself (at almost 18 months) transitioning into a big girl bed, I really do understand the fear of a toddler who is prone to climbing and michief being lose in a house unsupervised. She usually fusses a bit and then shouts Mommeee! Or DadEEE! and if it's night we go in and see her and if it's morning, we shout "Come on Emily, Come see Mommy and Daddy!" and in she walks to the side of the bed holding up her arms. She COULD run rampant and be destructive or wild. She'd have acess to chairs and couches and shelves that all day long I have to pull her off of. We have this gate over the balcony doors that she climbs like a baby spiderman all day, but she doesn't in the morning or the middle of the night. I know how scary it is to trust them at this age, but it's how they learn and it's also how they learn what your feelings are about them, too. 2.5 is a very impressionble age. They have a real sense of self and identity based very much on how we as parents treat them. Do you see them as a being capable of regulating some of their own needs, or do you see them as an unruly beast who will run rampant given the chance?

Obviously if the house is a death trap, you should do whatever you have to to keep them safe, but if the house is a death trap, instead of looking for doorknob covers maybe it's time to be looking for a new house.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MsFortune*
> 
> That's a lot of projection. We don't know what she was feeling. Kids in their room do not generally feel scared, and I'm sure she felt safe and loved unless her parents were horrible. Maybe they were, but tying the door shut does not make them horrible parents. She may have some emotional and behavioral problems that have nothing to do with her sleeping arrangements.
> 
> ...


She is my niece. We do a LOT of talking when we have one on one time. It is not projection. And no her parents are not terrible they just felt it was going to keep her safe and never really came from the perspective of children at such young ages having needs beyond the basic ones. Autonomy and respect for children is laughable in their home. It doesn't make them bad or unloving parents but it does mean they miss a lot.

Okay, so locking works for you...Right on! I think it stunts their social growth. I can agree to disagree. :-D

ETA: Carseats and carriers don't even factor in here, since these are not ways of leaving the child safely unattended in the middle of the night, and in fact are ways of holding the child safely and close by. Cribs I can see the agrument you are making there. But then once my kids have shown an interest in not being in a crib any more I have transitioned them to a bed. I do think it is developmentally inappropriate to use a crib to contain a child when they no longer need it to keep them from falling out of bed and they feel it is a box or a jail. Once they express a dislike for being in the crib, the crib has been moved to the garage. I don't really want my kids to associate their sleeping arrangements with being restrained against their will.

FETA: I also believe DN has no behavioral issues beyond this particular bone of contention when it comes to bed time, because she doesn't have these problems or struggles at her Gran's house nor mine. She goes to sleep like a big girl all on her own after stories and songs, and doesn't try to be destructive when we're asleep and when she wakes in the middle of the night or early morning she comes straight to the grown up in charge's room. Her parents just assume she is trying to be defiant and that she is testing their authority. I think they are right, but I think the way they react is counterproductive. We are also very close as a family, so I would be very shocked to find out SIL had kept anything about her kids from her brother (DH), especially after all the conversations we have had on the matter.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:Originally Posted by *octobermom* 

May I ask what about it bothers you? DOes your child frequently wake to play at night? *Is your LO a sleep walker (which I've had and it DOES present a whole diffrent frame of thinking)* can she even open a closed door? Does you home have extra safety concerns such as balconies or stairs?

What about co-rooming? I have now two overall better crib than cosleepers but I still strongly feel wee ones need to be with in arms reach and ear shot of a parent for the long haul so we still co roomed. Kid got there crib space but we were just a few feet away..

I also did use those door knobs in 2 ways 1) to prevent the latter in her own room toddler game of comming out 2,000 times incidently the knob for MINE was her signal it was time to not play it NEVER bothered her she'd try once go Oh okay nighty night







shes nutty like that though once she was settled and such or *before I went to bed I always made sure the door was open again.. No ones "locked" with sleeping parents.* We also used it one OUR door when she co roomed because she was a sleep walker and the dangerous kind.. THe one that would sleep walk and try to eat household cleaners or trash.. We once found her standing on the desk of her room leaning against the glass on her partially open window (thankfully not opened enough) tells us that shes had to stop the red birds.. second floor window nothing but concrete below... *In that cause we DID need to engage with locks but at the same time we NEEDED to keep her with us.*. So in all this my point.. IF your seriously scared and have reasons to believe you child will be in danger then you need to find a way to have a better view.. A door charm/bell something a video moniter something to alert you.. Locking all night is dangerous and can be very frightening.. A non mobile early walker HAS to relay on you and they know no diffrence and should relay on you to respond ASAP if needed... *a Walker able to get out should be able to and they will by nature try before calling out.. in a fire ect those moments loss could make all the diffrence.*

ITA w/ all of that especially the lines in bold.

That must have been so scary for you octobermom! I would have been sleepless for nights! How old was she when she started doing that?


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

I haven't read the whole thread...scanned the first page. We are very AP, and at first glance I thought "whoa! No way!" But, having read over your explanation, I can see why you'd want to have the door locked to keep her safe so she isn't wandering around the house. I think it is fine as long as you go to her immediately when she calls for you, etc. My DS is three and sometimes sleeps with us, sometimes in his room. We totally child proofed his room so that he can play safely in there if he is awake. We also have a gate in the hallway the would prevent him from going down the stairs or being able to actually get to the front door, etc., get out, but it gives him space to open his bedroom door, come out into the hallway, and call for us when he wants us. You can buy some gates that are pretty tall that your DD probably won't be able to get over. Personally, I would feel much more comfortable with that than locking the door, but I guess it is just a gut reaction and when I think it through it seems like a good way to make sure your DD doesn't get hurt, etc, as long as you attend to her promptly when she needs you so she doesn't feel confined to her room.


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## littlest birds (Jul 18, 2004)

I guarantee that there are many, many parents on here who are bothered by this and not getting involved in the conversation.

I am personally wondering how many techniques for locking a person behind a door there are to choose from, so the reason for this conversation if not to start a debate seems a little odd. It sounds more like a hardware store question than a parenting question. (not that parents can't talk hardware) I can still tell you what I think about actually solving your problem:

I agree with a pp that a baby gate is most suitable. I have had some athletic adventurers in my time, and I expect a decent gate will most likely last past the time you need it. Communication and growing understanding on the part of your child will soon become the main prevention for these worries. The other option that was also suggested above is a door alarm. Great idea! We use these in our business to alert when a door opens while we are in the back room and they are cheap, easy to install, and effective.

Personally, it bothers me that you have made it sound as though everything else has already been ruled and locking the door is the only/best option left. It's not. You are allowed to make that decision. Parents make decisions I don't agree with all the time and I stay out of it. Unless someone asks for advice--as you have. This subject is not something I would expect to find much supportive advice about in this particular forum. We may have a lot of experience dealing with managing toddlers at night in all sorts of situations, so that we have answers for. We have ideas. The lock question, not so much. There are several options for locking doors out there. I have used hook and eye or deadbolts with keys, depending on which type of door I needed to secure.


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## lovepickles (Nov 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MsFortune*
> 
> That's a lot of projection. We don't know what she was feeling. Kids in their room do not generally feel scared, and I'm sure she felt safe and loved unless her parents were horrible. Maybe they were, but tying the door shut does not make them horrible parents. She may have some emotional and behavioral problems that have nothing to do with her sleeping arrangements.


IMHO if a kid has emotional and behavioral problems locking them up is the last thing you want to do. Kids with extraordinary issues require parents to be equally extraordinary in their response.


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## aHikaru (Apr 12, 2011)

AE is currently 27 months and she started sleeping in a toddler bed 2-3 days ago.

We had the toddler bed out since her second birthday, to have her get used to it being there and she never slept in it. The other day we were at ikea and she saw her bed and jumped in and got under the covers, after seeing this I let her pick out a new set of sheets (which were the ones on display) and she's been sleeping in her bed since we got them. And yes, she rolls around a lot, but hasn't fallen out yet. Right now, which is nap time, she got out of bed and got a toy, so i went in the room put her toy away and tucked her back in and feel asleep right after. the only difference is that we co sleep in the same room so i think that really helps because she knows ill catch her getting out of bed.

Overall it will only be successful if she is 100% ready or you are 100% ready because if she senses hesitation from you she will def test the boundary's.

Honestly, AE just potty trained herself about a month ago and senses my hesitation and she'll get a diaper for me to put on, but still pee on the potty.


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## octobermom (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hakeber*
> 
> ITA w/ all of that especially the lines in bold.
> 
> That must have been so scary for you octobermom! I would have been sleepless for nights! How old was she when she started doing that?


started around 15 months then we'd had intermediete occurances lasting a few weeks to a few months each time till she was around 7.. Major mile stones or changes really triggered things.. The first time we had huge breakthroughs in her speech (apraxia) we had some of the most dangerous sleep walking epsoides.. We put her on a toddler bed right beside ours during that time shes was 3.


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## ecoteat (Mar 3, 2006)

I'm not going to even touch the discussion about whether a toddler should be contained to their room at night.

But I will say that we contained our toddler in her room at night, and how it worked for us. DD co-slept until 14 months. I honestly can't remember the exact reasons for moving her at that point, but we did and it was good. We put a futon mattress (thinner than an standard mattress) on the floor. We baby-proofed the entire room and set up a monitor. And we had a gate on the door. I would have had no qualms about closing the door, but I liked being able to sneak in quietly by stepping over the gate (the door latch can be noisy) and how easy it was to peek in on her. It was also nice to be able to have her play in there while I was in the shower or something but have the door open so I can hear her clearly. If for some reason we didn't want a gate or closed door, it would have been quite easy to put a gate in the hall that would keep her in her room, the hall, or our room. But that was never an issue--she never gets out of bed in the night or during a nap, so she never even approached the gate during sleeping time anyway. We kept the gate/monitor combo going until she was about 3. I just thought of her whole room as kind of a big crib.

I remember being a kid and seeing a hook-and-eye on the outside of a friend's younger sibling's door, up high, and thinking that was crazy. Then I became a parent and I totally get how that works for some people. Yes, there may be safety issues, but it's also possible that there are greater safety issues with certain kids in certain houses/situations if the kid has free reign of the house while everyone else is sleeping.


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## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *csekywithlove*
> 
> AP and all aside, who could not be somewhat upset/ worried after reading the first post?


I wasn't. I completely understand a kid who needs to unwind, on their own, in their own space, but won't do unless they're locked in. My DD1 is the same way when she has huge tantrums. If don't lock her in her room she hurts everyone around her and destroys things. If you lock her in her childproofed room she calms down in less than 5 minutes and yells "Mom I'm done tantrum, come get me so we can play!" It hasn't messed her up for life and she's always happy when I let her out. This is going to get me labeled as a bad mom on here, but I had to comment since the OP is getting beaten up.

And how is locking them in a room w/a baby gate different from locking the door? Most house doors are so thin you can hear right through them. I'm be incredibly concerned about a toddler trying to climb over the gate or stacking things (books in my DD1's case) to get over the gate.


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## tzs (Aug 4, 2009)

so i just scanned the first page and some of the last and am not 100% sure of where the discusssion has gone.

but to the original post.....
my dd is/was the same way. always better on her own, in her own room in a crib since 5 months or so, cannot fall asleep with me or anybody there at all...has to be by herself..period....and has never had an issue with that. when she needs us we always go to her.

i transitioned her to a mattress on the floor (i was going to do futon but we got a thicker twin foam mattress topper...it's thin, cheaper, easier to find at stores, and we can always use it later) at around 18 months recently b/c i'm due in may with #2 and i just didn;t want two cribs in the house and i want to sidecar for #2. i put it off and put it off thinking it would be a big struggle. i figured she wouldn;t know how to stay in the bed and she did seem to enjoy her crib....would always run to it when she was tired. so we just childproofed the room and i figured i'd be ok with some roaming and then eventual sleeping but from the first night she's always stayed in bed. in fact, 90% of the time when she wakes up in the am and calls for me she's still in bed and we get to cuddle for a bit. as to the locking, i can't answer to the exact scenario except that at 20 months she can;t reach or open doors by the handle and i shut the door to her room (she falls asleep better that way...no distraction) so i guess in effect she's locked in. but on the other hand she never really tries to get out.....like i said, she kind of waits in bed for me...almost like she's stuck there. a few times she's been waiting at the door for me but that's the extent of it.

even if i kept her door open, i'd still gate off the rest of the house/the stairs and our door would be shut. the house is pretty large and not really childproofed and we have a dog that i like to keep at least minimally supervised around her so wandering around while we are sleeping is not an option (and i'm pretty relaxed about giving her free reign while i'm up and at least aware of her whereabouts.)


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## tzs (Aug 4, 2009)

ok.....having just read most of the posts, i'm a little confused now...

how is getting a baby gate for the bedroom door in the tallest heights that you can find (so they can't get out) any different from shutting the door so they can't get out? i guess with the gate they can see out (although in our house she would just be staring at another shut door across the hall) but it's not like they could save themselves in case of a fire (g-d forbid.) i mean, to be honest, in a true emergency my 20 month old would be 100x safer locked in her room (where we knew where she was), as i have little confidence that at her age she would have the knowledge or wherewithal to safely navigate herself out of a smoking building.

is everybody here arguing that a toddler should have free range of the house at night or just access to her parents if she needs them? if it's the later then how would a baby gate at the door facilitate that? and what's wrong with allowing a kid access to her parents by letting her call out for them like they would do in a crib (assuming you're not anti-crib....and if you are then i'd like to invite you over to give co-sleeping or room-sharing a try with my kiddo and then try to tell me that having a toddler in a permanant sleep-deprived state is somehow better for her.)


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## sobamom (Nov 9, 2010)

Alright, this is going to be the last post from me because I feel it's just going to continue to rouse a lot of emotional responses. I think my biggest mistake was choosing such a thoughtless title for my post. I never imagined this would become such a controversial discussion  Confession: I didn't know Mothering.com forum was only for AP-practicing people.

For the record, using a door-knob cover isn't really locking the door. You turn it normally from the outside, but the person on the inside has a harder time doing so. Zero fire hazard, in terms of getting to your child. As for your child being able to get out in an emergency, it's debatable whether a frightened/dazed two-year-old would be able and willing to run out of her room and escape outside to questionable safety.

Second, I think a lot of people read "locking your child in" and jump to a lot of Flowers in the Attic conclusions. I honestly don't intend to use a door-knob cover for the long term. Merely during the transition period--a few weeks/months, perhaps?--when DD is adjusting to a new bed and maybe getting a little too excited about her new-found freedom. I only know what I've heard, which is that night wakings will occur more often during this time. What is the difference between her coming to me for comfort and me going to her to give her that comfort? And yes, when I know she's ready and that it is safe, I will definitely give her the freedom and choice to leave her room at night, as she needs.

Three, while I gave the baby-gate suggestion a lot of consideration, in the end, I can't see the difference between a gate and a door. Possibly, the reason so many people say a baby gate is okay, while a closed door isn't, is purely an emotional response. I suppose a few of those who responded negatively to this thread co-sleep, so the idea of shutting one's child off in another room WITH a closed door, to boot, sounds like something they would never want their child to endure. The thing is, judging from how well she sleeps and how willingly she goes into the crib herself, I can only assume DD feels content and safe in her crib with the door closed when it is bedtime, the only time I put her in there, and the only time she's ever in any room by herself. I don't see the difference between keeping DD in the room with a barred gate vs. a closed door--just that the former is see-through. Seems like a superficial difference to me, especially if DD is already used to the sight of the closed door at bedtime and I am ready and willing to go to her whenever she needs me.

I know there will probably be further challenges and accusations from people on this forum, but I think I did my best to explain my situation while remaining civil and don't think there's anything more that needs to be said. Thanks for the stimulating discussion.


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## Cutie Patootie (Feb 29, 2004)

My ds will be 29 months on the 3rd of June. If you have a toddler who is rambunctious and good at figuring things out...which most are, then a simple door knob cover isn't going to do much for you. My ds came upstairs from downstairs last week. My husband was watching him and had the downstairs door shut(we live in a 110yo house with doors everywhere) with the door knob cover. He came out of the bathroom to find the door knob cover on the floor in two parts. He asked ds how he got out the door and ds said, "I *cracked* it off!". LOL So, so much for that.

As for locking a child of any age in their room, I don't think it's a good idea. They should have access to their parents at night. We have gates up that make a path to our room, blocking the way to other parts of the house. Ds has a straight path to our room if he gets up. It's one thing to be in a crib with the door closed and call for your mom when you get up. Especially if it's something that has always been. It's another to be out of your crib walking around an empty bedroom, turn the handle on the door and not be able to get it open or get out. It's scary. Toddlers are not dumb, they know that when you turn a door knob, the door is supposed to open. Being locked in is not a fun feeling and it's not the same as being in a crib you've been in all your sleeping life. The difference in a closed unopenable door and a gate is probably emotional, but still just as important. I'd much rather be able to see out and feel like I am being heard, than be in an empty room alone wondering if anyone will hear me or come. You have other options, you just don't care to entertain any of them. (((shrug)))


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## JenRave (May 12, 2011)

...ok ignoring all the arguing...

If you are reasonably sure that she is safe with everything in her room (no choking hazards, etc) and mainly are just wanting her not to explore the apartment while you are sleeping, it sounds like, as some others have suggested, a baby gate is the best way to go. I would just use it for a little while during hours you are awake to be sure she can't dismantle it or climb over it easily. Some toddlers are extremely creative escape artists!

I'm not familiar with the doorknob things. But when my son was small we didn't live in a house with many doorknobs - wow that must sound strange!


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## JenRave (May 12, 2011)

To add on the fire hazard issue - it was my understanding, actually, that it is recommended children sleep with doors shut, as it retards the spread of flame and smoke in the event of a fire anyway. I don't think I've ever really paid attention to that, mostly just had smoke alarms installed and prayed we never had a fire!


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## lawmama1984 (Mar 17, 2009)

Doors shut doesn't equal doors locked. I think the fire hazard most people are worried about here is, in the event of a fire, the child not being able to get out of their room on their own (although I never thought about it the way someone pointed out....a child might be too frightened to come out on their own in that event, good point), or the parents not being able to get to her quickly enough to grab her and get out. That's just what I'm thinking about the locking/fire hazard issue


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## tzs (Aug 4, 2009)

to the OP...i say jump right in....you might be surprised at how smoothly it goes. or at least hoping it goes as smoothly for you as it did for us. and yeah, i was thinking about this thread this am and realized that i think alot of the negative responses might come from parents of kids that still wake up alot at night (maybe?) for us, dd is in her room, sleeps straight through, and then in the am i wake up to hear her singing in bed for a little while or else she calls right out to me...and i always come. part of having her in her own room with the door shut, for us, was making sure she knew that the minute she called 'mommy', that we would come, so that she knew she didnt ever have to resort to more "drastic" measures. it sounds like you always come to your LO as well.

my friend also just transitioned to a floor bed and her kid is the same age as mine (20 months.) they do have the door handles like yours (ours our teh regular ones and dd can't open them yet) and her LO is able to open them. his unusual reaction is that if he doesn't fall asleep right away at night, he'll open the door but won't leave the room...it's like he knows he's supposed to stay in there...and he'll end up passing out in his doorway waiting for them. in the am when he wakes up he goes to their room and crawls into bed with them. i'm not saying that letting your LO open doors like that would work for you, it wouldn't for me with the size of the house and the dog....plus, this kid has gotten himsefl into plenty of trouble in the am while they were still sleeping. i guess it's more to let you know that yes, kids do have the ability to stay in their rooms all night, even w/o "locks." and like i said, the am roaming situation would not fly in our house, it just wouldn't be safe.


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## tzs (Aug 4, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lawmama1984*
> 
> Doors shut doesn't equal doors locked. I think the fire hazard most people are worried about here is, in the event of a fire, the child not being able to get out of their room on their own (although I never thought about it the way someone pointed out....a child might be too frightened to come out on their own in that event, good point), or the parents not being able to get to her quickly enough to grab her and get out. That's just what I'm thinking about the locking/fire hazard issue


see that's kind of the whole fire safety point...if, g-d forbid, there were a fire, the safest place for my kid (other than with us, which isn't going to happen since she is unable to fall asleep with company ) would be closed in her room where we knew where she was. if she could get out and did, she could be anywhere in a 3 story (plus basement) home and i don't know how she could be found. a 2 year old is not going to calmly exit the house via the front door in a scary emergency. in fact, i was always taught that they would most likely hide somewhere. better that it be in her room where she could be found.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tzs*
> 
> how is getting a baby gate for the bedroom door in the tallest heights that you can find (so they can't get out) any different from shutting the door so they can't get out?


I'm not sure that it is. I would use gates or secured sliding dividers to create a safe pathway from their bedroom to mine. I don't like the idea of a child who has a desire to get out to see me, not being able to do that. I get shutting a door for them to settle without distraction, but not in order to keep them shut in when they wish to get out.

I think we all have to do what makes us comfortable with our kids, but I do think there are better ways than locking kids in to a dark bedroom alone when they wish to get out. I do not co-sleep. My kids are in their own rooms each and have been since mid way through their first year because co-sleeping just wasn't working for us. I shut the door (DS with a click, DD shut but not clicked so she can push it open if she needs to) as they settle down. If I needed to actually lock it, I'd assume that means they are not yet ready to be alone, go to sleep, or needed something from me. I also leave all bedroom doors open before I go to bed so that A) I can hear everything. B) they can come to me if they have a bad dream or they need some water, or they just need a cuddle. I block off the living area by shutting that door, and I shut the bathroom door because DS can open it and DD who is not capable of using it alone yet can't. I am trying to imagine a living space where my room is so far from my child's that there would be no way for me to create a safe path between our rooms. I don't think I could live there. Even when DS was between 2.5 and 3 at his Gran's house and we were right up stairs, with the staircase right outside his bedroom door, a direct path, I was freaked out being so far from him.

I wouldn't feel safe.

As for the fire hazard situation. I could never leave my child's door closed at night when I was unconscious. If there was a fire in there, even by the time the smoke detector went off, the brass handle could be so hot I would be unable to get my child out alive. This is my phobia, but it is based on the experiences of an acquaintance of ours. I understand that it may be irrational, but i would rather be able to push the door open to get my baby, then have to worry about fiddly or searing hot door knobs in the middle of the night. I also worry that they may suffocate from the smoke, or that I wouldn't smell the smoke until it was too late. If that doesn't seem like a real risk to you, I get it. We all have our own things that make our mom knees go all jelly like. The thought of my child wanting to get to me but not being able to wories me.

Finally, even light sleeping parents have nights of truly deep comatose like sleep now and then, especially after several nights of exhausting non-sleeping babies. With doors closed, it can be hard to awaken, even with them open, it can be a challenge. I am and always have been a very very light sleeper, but not that long ago, when DD was about 10 months old after about 2 weeks of a tooth cutting through and virtually no solid sleep whatsoever plus a new full time job that came with plenty of stress, I closed her door to let her settle and I went to my room to grab my marking and I passed out. I don't know what happened. I reached across the bed to get the pile of exams and the next thing I knew...DH was out so it was just me and her...I woke up to DD shrieking her f-ing head off and by the sound of it she had been screaming for a long long time, choking in tears. I have never felt so guilty and like such a bad mom in all my life. She was scared and lonely and probably still in pain. Now, if DH is away, I wait until DD is asleep and I go sleep in her room with her, and I always leave the doors open when he is home.

IMO, I figure if a child is too young to be trusted to come to your room through a safe corral system, they are too young to be left alone by themselves in a dark room. But ya know, again, this doesn't mean because I think it's a shockingly scandalous way to handle the situation that I think people who do are BAD parents. Every parent does the best they can to make their children feel safe and loved, but I should be allowed to point out that there might be a better solution to meet those needs. That's why we have these forums, isn't it? For healthy open discussions about parenting choices?


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## tzs (Aug 4, 2009)

yeah, to be honest we could corral a path pretty easily if i came up with another location for the dog. i didn't really think of it being an issue when we started and the situation as is works great for us now. but something to thinj about.


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## FiveLittleMonkeys (Jan 21, 2009)

My basis on the fire safety issue was based on a former neighbor, who turned her child's doorknob around so she could lock the door from the outside. I know for ME, if I'm already in a little bit of a panic trying to get TO my child, having the extra step of needing to unlock the door from the outside could be an issue (shaky hands, racing minds, what have you).

But again, that is based upon the only person I've known to lock her child in their room at night, via the doorknob being turned around. That would be the only way *I'd* be able to do it in my house as well, unless I installed another exterior device to do so.

Our rationale for using a baby gate was to keep kids in their rooms until I or DH could get to them. We opened their doors (for the kids who could sleep with doors open) as we went to bed so we could hear them better.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

I would lock the door or put a safety gate across. Sometimes, there is a child in the news who managed to escape and get killed while the parents thought she was sleeping. Do what you need to keep her safe. If she safety gate will work, you can go for that. Otherwise, the door knob protectors so she cannot open the door..that sort of thing.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

The wanting the child to exit the house on her own in the event of a fire is an insane laughable one. Fact is, a 2 yr old is not going to have the know how to leave the house in the case of a fire. She will more likely hide in her room. Or somewhere in the house and if the door had not been locked, you might find that she left the room and you have to search the entire burning house for her, and not find her in time. However, in the event of no fire, if you left things so that she can leave the house all by herself, well, she would get kidnapped, run over, lost completely, who knows what would happen to her if she left the house on her own. In the event of a fire, you need to know exactly where your child is. Not knowing if they left the house on their own and are standing outside by a tree (which is unlikely for a 2 yr old) or hiding someplace in the house because they are scared, and now you cannot find them (the far more likely scenario) is a very dangerous thing. Fire or no fire, having a toddler able to wander around and even leave the house on her own is very dangerous. And if it happens a couple times, CPS can take your child.


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## Lisa1970 (Jan 18, 2009)

I agree.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tzs*
> 
> see that's kind of the whole fire safety point...if, g-d forbid, there were a fire, the safest place for my kid (other than with us, which isn't going to happen since she is unable to fall asleep with company ) would be closed in her room where we knew where she was. if she could get out and did, she could be anywhere in a 3 story (plus basement) home and i don't know how she could be found. a 2 year old is not going to calmly exit the house via the front door in a scary emergency. in fact, i was always taught that they would most likely hide somewhere. better that it be in her room where she could be found.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lisa1970*
> 
> *The wanting the child to exit the house on her own* in the event of a fire is an insane laughable one. Fact is, a 2 yr old is not going to have the know how to leave the house in the case of a fire. She will more likely hide in her room. Or somewhere in the house and if the door had not been locked, you might find that she left the room and you have to search the entire burning house for her, and not find her in time. However, in the event of no fire, if you left things so that she can leave the house all by herself, well, she would get kidnapped, run over, lost completely, who knows what would happen to her if she left the house on her own. In the event of a fire, you need to know exactly where your child is. Not knowing if they left the house on their own and are standing outside by a tree (which is unlikely for a 2 yr old) or hiding someplace in the house because they are scared, and now you cannot find them (the far more likely scenario) is a very dangerous thing. Fire or no fire, having a toddler able to wander around and even leave the house on her own is very dangerous. And if it happens a couple times, CPS can take your child.


Sorry, Lisa but where did this come from? Who on this thread has said anything like that? I'm confused. Providing a safe route to the parent in the night, and not having a closed door between you and them after everyone has gone to sleep and the parents are heading to sleep. No one has said a child should have access to leave the house...did I miss something?


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## Agatha_Ann (Apr 5, 2009)

I haven't read all the replies thoroughly, but I wanted to say when my current youngest first went to his "big boy bed", he would frequently get up in the middle of the night to go play with toys downstairs. If he wanted me, he would wake up one of his brothers, call out, or knock on the door, but if he was wanting to go play, he just got up and headed down the stairs. All 17 of them. In the dark. I was not comfortable with that at all. We had a gate up there for all of five minutes before he decided to scale it and tumble down. So, we put one of the doorknob covers on the inside of the door for the next couple months. I was nervous at first, but both the older boys could open it no problem if they needed to, so that made me feel better. Little guy doesn't want to get up in the middle of the night anymore and we have had the cover off for a while.

Having a daycare, I have to take all sorts of fire safety classes and seminars. I would never ever be comfortable with anyone sleeping with their doors open. Sure a doorknob might be hot when you get there, but with the doors open, the fire would be in the room already. I think any mother would burn their hands or break down a door to get their babies out. It is simply a fact that they are safer with the doors closed.


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## scottishmommy (Nov 30, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hakeber*
> 
> Sorry, Lisa but where did this come from? Who on this thread has said anything like that? I'm confused. Providing a safe route to the parent in the night, and not having a closed door between you and them after everyone has gone to sleep and the parents are heading to sleep. No one has said a child should have access to leave the house...did I miss something?


I did! And it is a completely irrational fear thing. I hate the idea of my kid being trapped in her room in the event of an emergency. I don't actually believe that she would make it out on her own in the event of a fire, but I like the *idea* that she could escape. Obviously the most important thing is to know where your kid is in the event of an emergency.
I still think the OP should look into a bell thingy for the door.


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## JenRave (May 12, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lisa1970*
> 
> I would lock the door or put a safety gate across. Sometimes, there is a child in the news who managed to escape and get killed while the parents thought she was sleeping. Do what you need to keep her safe. If she safety gate will work, you can go for that. Otherwise, the door knob protectors so she cannot open the door..that sort of thing.


*trying to add a bit of humor* When my son was three, in our 1 bedroom apartment, while I took a nap, with the front door locked via deadbolt 4 feet off the floor, he very quietly dragged a chair over to the door, unlocked the deadbolt, and made a break for it. I was awakened by the landlady bringing him back! I later caught him trying to do the same thing AGAIN... he actually had the grace to look guilty when he got caught. After that I just couldn't take naps anymore! The little Houdini...


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

I am pretty horrified by this thread and can not believe anyone would consider locking a child in a room. I mean really why is your house so dangerous that you need to fear her getting up?

IDK this just screams abuse to me...


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## MsFortune (Dec 5, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sosurreal09*
> 
> I am pretty horrified by this thread and can not believe anyone would consider locking a child in a room. I mean really why is your house so dangerous that you need to fear her getting up?
> 
> IDK this just screams abuse to me...


How do you define abuse? People make different parenting choices - but it does not mean that their children are abused.

Throwing that word around so casually - you know that there are kids that are actually abused, killed, injured every day?

I'm offended to be called an abuser. It's really out of line.


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## tzs (Aug 4, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sosurreal09*
> 
> I am pretty horrified by this thread and can not believe anyone would consider locking a child in a room. I mean really why is your house so dangerous that you need to fear her getting up?
> 
> IDK this just screams abuse to me...


to be honest but more importantly, to be REALISTIC, yes, my house is so dangerous that it would not be safe for a 20 month old to be all alone in (with parents sound asleep.) i don;t know anyone who owns a house that would be safe enough for a toddler who knows how to maneuver things, climb, get into all sorts of trouble, to be alone and unsupervised in....unless they live in a bubble somewhere. and like i said before, dd has very free range of the house during the day when i am AWAKE and can hear what is going on. OR more likely, NOT hear, because that is when she is really getting into trouble.

i mean, the list is endless...there are bookcases that could topple, there is a gas stove where the gas could be turned on, there are knives that are accessible if she climbed onto the counters, there are electrical plugs, there are sinks with faucets, there is a front door, there is a refrigerator (yes, kids do climb into them...and suffocate...ask my friend whose toddler did it while with a babysitter,) there is a basement with dh's tools, shelves, and a furnace and alot of concrete...and there's a (sleeping) dog who could startle when woken up. heck....little kids even drown in toilet bowls....silently! that's just for starters.

i think the most logical argument here that has been against shutting them in the room (which we do with dd) is not for letting them free-range at night but somehow setting up a plan for them to be able to reach the parents' room and that's it. suggesting that a toddler should be able to roam the house while everybody sleeps is more akin to abuse to me...or at least negligence.


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## Thandiwe (May 14, 2007)

I am only saying this simply because it's what comes to mind in reading this thread, but I had a foster daughter previously. Her older two siblings were removed and placed into foster care for various issues, obviously, but the largest one was that they were being locked in a room. Granted, there were more factors to the story than simply that, but be aware that the Department of Human Services justified that as the largest complaint in the actual removal. They were held in care for many factors, but that was the one that warranted the police showing up at the front door and physically removing the children.

Just be please aware of this. Not calling names, throwing stones, or even throwing my opinion into the mix. I just wanted to offer that situation up for consideration by all involved.


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## tzs (Aug 4, 2009)

and to add, if i'm an abuser for shutting the door of my kid's room while she sleeps then so be it...because she wakes up happy and singing and rolling around in her bed with her "baby" and waiting for cuddles from mommy. sounds like it's working out to me.


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## tzs (Aug 4, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Thandiwe*
> 
> I am only saying this simply because it's what comes to mind in reading this thread, but I had a foster daughter previously. Her older two siblings were removed and placed into foster care for various issues, obviously, but the largest one was that they were being locked in a room. Granted, there were more factors to the story than simply that, but be aware that the Department of Human Services justified that as the largest complaint in the actual removal. They were held in care for many factors, but that was the one that warranted the police showing up at the front door and physically removing the children.
> 
> Just be please aware of this. Not calling names, throwing stones, or even throwing my opinion into the mix. I just wanted to offer that situation up for consideration by all involved.


but were they locked in and trying to get out is the question. or were they locked in awake?

it seems like everybody here responds immediately to their child's cries for attention when they wake up.


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## 1blueheron (Aug 22, 2009)

This would add more if we knew the ages of the kids involved....I think we can all agree that preventing a 10 year old (for example) from opening her own door is vastly different than keeping a 20 month old from roaming the house in the night.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Thandiwe*
> 
> I am only saying this simply because it's what comes to mind in reading this thread, but I had a foster daughter previously. Her older two siblings were removed and placed into foster care for various issues, obviously, but the largest one was that they were being locked in a room. Granted, there were more factors to the story than simply that, but be aware that the Department of Human Services justified that as the largest complaint in the actual removal. They were held in care for many factors, but that was the one that warranted the police showing up at the front door and physically removing the children.
> 
> Just be please aware of this. Not calling names, throwing stones, or even throwing my opinion into the mix. I just wanted to offer that situation up for consideration by all involved.


----------



## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scottishmommy*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Ahhh, I missed that. At least you can admit it is irrational. I definitely wouldn't want my kid roaming the apartment on her own while I was sleeping. and Outside doors? We live in a big city. Leaving our door unlocked would be as they say here "giving papaya". Basically like putting a neon sign outside our apartment that says in flashing lights "come and rob us and kidnap our kids for ransome!" but if our kids ever did get out (god forbid) and make it down the marble staircase alive (cringe) there are two guards who know us well who have to unlock the doors with keys to let us out...so they wouldn't get anywhere.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Agatha_Ann*
> 
> Having a daycare, I have to take all sorts of fire safety classes and seminars. I would never ever be comfortable with anyone sleeping with their doors open. Sure a doorknob might be hot when you get there, but with the doors open, the fire would be in the room already. I think any mother would burn their hands or break down a door to get their babies out. It is simply a fact that they are safer with the doors closed.


I am loathe to discuss this because it is only a minor side thought in my reasons for keeping acess between my room and children's room open and clear and safe at all times, but...Can you explain this to me? It is completely counter intuitive for me. If a fire were in my daughter or son's room would it not be easier to detect the danger and get to them if the door were open. wouldn't the door closed trap the smoke and increase the odds of smoke inhalation?

Of course I would burn my hand to get a door open if I could.

[SPOILER=Warning: graphic description to follow]

Our friend was unable to open the door. A small lamp they left on shorted out and caught the curtains, by the time he smelled the smoke and tried to open the door, the knob was so hot it melded with his hand. He turned the door knob and instead his flesh turned away and fell off. It was that hot. He had to break down the door, wasting precious seconds, and his daughter was crouched on her bed breathing in smoke terrified. She suffered from terrible smoke inhalation and 2nd degree burns on her feet and hands.

[/SPOILER]

Well anyway, this was the story they told us. I could leap over a gate or push in a not fully shut door...is it really so different if the living area is shut off and you have three smallish rooms connected by a small hallway? Why?


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## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

I'm pretty sure closing doors as a fire safety measure is about containing the fire in the room in which it begins. So, if the fire begins in the living room, having the bedroom doors shut will help protect the occupants. That's why smoke detectors should be outside bedroom, between the bedrooms and kitchen.

If a fire started in your child's room the closed door would be beneficial to the rest of the house but not to the child in the room because, as PPs have mentioned it would slow the passage of smoke to the detectors. Also, opening a door behind which there is a fire will usually cause the fire to flare because of the oxygen boost.

For me there is a big psychological difference between a gate and a closed door. I feel very isolated and alone in a room with the door closed but a gate makes the room feel much more open to me. And I think I read a few people say, "the only difference is an emotional one" or words to that effect when comparing gates and doors. Well, yes, but honouring emotional needs is a big part of my parenting style so that is all the difference in the world to me.


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## Thandiwe (May 14, 2007)

The children were 2 and 3. Just turned.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tzs*
> 
> my friend also just transitioned to a floor bed and her kid is the same age as mine (20 months.) they do have the door handles like yours (ours our teh regular ones and dd can't open them yet) and her LO is able to open them. his unusual reaction is that if he doesn't fall asleep right away at night, he'll open the door but won't leave the room...it's like he knows he's supposed to stay in there...and he'll end up passing out in his doorway waiting for them. in the am when he wakes up he goes to their room and crawls into bed with them.


That was our experience as well. At night, when our kids woke up without us, they didn't go wandering the house. When dd was nursing, she got out of bed, climbed over me and into ours. She never went wandering. After she stopped night nursing at age 3, she'd still climb in. Only after we stopped co-sleeping did we have 'issues'. Only then the issue was that she would lie in bed and scream for us. Somehow she forgot that she could come in to our room! We had to retrain her to do that (we've got a spot next to our bed where she can sleep). So, you might be pleasantly surprised that she doesn't wander.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *katelove*
> 
> I'm pretty sure closing doors as a fire safety measure is about containing the fire in the room in which it begins. So, if the fire begins in the living room, having the bedroom doors shut will help protect the occupants. That's why smoke detectors should be outside bedroom, between the bedrooms and kitchen.
> 
> If a fire started in your child's room the closed door would be beneficial to the rest of the house but not to the child in the room because, as PPs have mentioned it would slow the passage of smoke to the detectors. Also, opening a door behind which there is a fire will usually cause the fire to flare because of the oxygen boost.


Yes, for true fire safety, you're supposed to keep the doors shut. I always feel guilty because my kids can't sleep with the doors closed (they're too scared), and I know it's a fire hazard.

As for a toddler getting out of a fire by themselves, the US Fire Administration says that before age 3, kids are unlikely to be able to follow an escape plan. Thus, you, as a parent, need to plan how you're going to get them out. If you sleep with a closed door, you should have a smoke detector in several places: Between the kitchen and the bedrooms, and in the bedrooms with the closed doors.


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## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sosurreal09*
> 
> I am pretty horrified by this thread and can not believe anyone would consider locking a child in a room. I mean really why is your house so dangerous that you need to fear her getting up?
> 
> IDK this just screams abuse to me...


Um to a 2 year old couches are dangerous. I've seen a toddler climb on the back and take a flying leap off a couch. Thankfully he was caught by mom, but if he had the coffee table that could have been a concussion or worse. If a kid did that at 2am (and most parents probably wouldn't wake up until the crack of their child's head hitting the table) they're pretty likely to get seriously hurt. Or opening kitchen drawers and using them to climb on the counter and hurtling the coffeepot to the ground where they dance in the carafe shards.. Or opening the linen closet door, climbing the shelves and falling from 5 feet up. I can go on.

Abuse would be tethering a kid to their bed and ignoring their screams or something similar. Not making sure they're safe while you sleep and waking up happy. How on earth is that abuse? I'm pretty horrified that you're so judgmental...


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## treeoflife3 (Nov 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *katelove*
> 
> I'm pretty sure closing doors as a fire safety measure is about containing the fire in the room in which it begins. So, if the fire begins in the living room, having the bedroom doors shut will help protect the occupants. *That's why smoke detectors should be outside bedroom, between the bedrooms and kitchen.*
> 
> ...


wait, why wouldn't you ALSO put smoke detectors in the bedrooms?? Why just outside the doors and in the kitchen? That itself seems unsafe. We have a smoke detector in all rooms including the three bedrooms, living room, kitchen/dining room and mudroom. It seems pretty silly to have a smoke detector outside a bedroom and then worry that it'll take too long for the smoke to reach it if the fire starts in your kid's bedroom.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Thandiwe*
> 
> I am only saying this simply because it's what comes to mind in reading this thread, but I had a foster daughter previously. Her older two siblings were removed and placed into foster care for various issues, obviously, but the largest one was that they were being locked in a room. Granted, there were more factors to the story than simply that, but be aware that the Department of Human Services justified that as the largest complaint in the actual removal. They were held in care for many factors, but that was the one that warranted the police showing up at the front door and physically removing the children.
> 
> Just be please aware of this. Not calling names, throwing stones, or even throwing my opinion into the mix. I just wanted to offer that situation up for consideration by all involved.


I am a social worker and cannot fathom a situation in which a child would be removed from a home for the locking situation that OP is describing. I don't expect you to share the other details as I know you can't because of confidentiality, but I am sure there is *much* more to your kiddos story, and I just want to be clear that OP would never in a trillion years have her child removed from her home for what she is talking about doing. I am sure you aren't trying to be misleading or anything, but I just have to point out that it would never happen. Locking kids in their room while mom goes out drinking and using drugs...sure. Absolutely. Locking the door while kid is sleeping...not a chance. I have had pediatricians actually suggest to my foster families on my caseload that they do lock the doors on the kids bedrooms at night for safety. Not saying I agree with it...just saying it has been suggested.

As for other posters calling OPs choices abusive...that is truly out of line and minimizes the impact and experience of true abuse. Last I checked, OP wasn't planning on locking this kiddo in without coming to her when she called. I don't see what is abusive about that. It *feels* wrong and different from a gate, but if you really think about it, it isn't that different. I wouldn't do it because I wouldn't like how it would feel to me, but like PP said, it is really more of a gut and emotional reaction than a true problem with locking the door yet still being responsive. If I couldn't do a gate for some reason or if my son was a climber, I would HAVE to lock because he has been known to unlock the front door and get out. He also climbed out a low window a few weeks ago with seriously not more than one minute of us being 20 feet away in another room. He just can't get the hang of scaling gates, thankfully. This is a matter of safety and if OP feels this will keep her DD safe while still responding to her needs, I think we can all chill out about it.


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## Agatha_Ann (Apr 5, 2009)

We have smoke detectors in every room and hallway, and they are wired together, so if a fire starts in one room, all the detectors in the house go off. It is also really important to make sure your detectors are 12 inches from the ceiling and 12 inches from the corner. Smoke could potentially fill an entire room before it reaches the top corners wasting precious time.


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## madskye (Feb 20, 2006)

No, I would not a toddler in a room alone. I would get up and walk her back to bed every time she got out. I'd also probably invest in one of those toddler clocks that highlights a decent hour to wake up.


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## Thandiwe (May 14, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> ...but I just have to point out that it would never happen.


I would be cautious saying never.







And to be clear, I wasn't calling anyone abusive or naming names, as I stated. I think that it is a relative experience and hope that someone can file this story in the back of their minds to remember. I don't think you and I have the same belief and confidence in the foster care system.


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## Marissamom (Dec 17, 2009)

wow, I'm surprised this is such a hot button issue. My DD moved to her own room at 15 months, and has always slept with the door closed. we don't go to bed at the same time she does, and if the door is open she will just keep coming out to see what we're doing. she learned how to open her door at 22 months, two days before her brother was born. after 3 weeks of her not napping and it taking 3 hours fore her to go down at night because she kept checking on us (and coming to make sure we were taking care of the baby if he was fussing), we decided to put a doorknob cover on the inside of her door and see if she would do better being able to open the door in a few months. it just wasn't a time we could handle the stress of the situation. when she knows she can't open the door she happily falls asleep in 5 minutes


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## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *treeoflife3*
> 
> wait, why wouldn't you ALSO put smoke detectors in the bedrooms?? Why just outside the doors and in the kitchen? That itself seems unsafe. We have a smoke detector in all rooms including the three bedrooms, living room, kitchen/dining room and mudroom. It seems pretty silly to have a smoke detector outside a bedroom and then worry that it'll take too long for the smoke to reach it if the fire starts in your kid's bedroom.


In Australia we mostly just have them in hallway outside the bedrooms. I've never seen them actually *in* the bedroom (and we've been househunting so I've seen inside a. lot. of houses







). I guess the idea is that the bedrooms are less likely to be the place where a fire starts or maybe that you'll be woken by a fire in the bedroom where you wouldn't be if it was in the kitchen. IDK, I haven't really thought about it until now TBH.

Oh, and we don't have them actually in the kitchens usually because it increases the chance of false alarms. Here are the regs if you're interested http://www.nswfb.nsw.gov.au/page.php?id=443#b These are the minimum requirements. Guess you can't have too many


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

There is a big difference between having a door closed that they can open (or using a gate) and locking them in a room so they are trapped. What if they need to use the bathroom or are thirsty? Will you really hear them? What if they are scared and need someone?

A lot of people bring up the emergency thing and I have to agree that in the event of an emergency having to unlock a door is wasting precious time.

Apparently I hit a hot button with saying it's abuse but I was abused and in foster care and well yeah I see locking a child up as abuse. Like I said I was horrified just reading it. Maybe i have a more biased opinion b/c of my history but that's how I feel about it.


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## GardenStream (Aug 21, 2007)

I'll start by saying that I have locked or closed the door for both of my boys at some point in their lives knowing that they would not be able to open it from the inside. We also co-slept with both of them. Obviously we don't follow the AP rule book, we do the things which work for us and abandon the things that don't work for us.

I don't think locking kids in their room should be option #1. Why not give it a try to let your child sleep in their toddler bed without locking the door? You are going to find out very quickly how your child works. You might find that you don't need a gate blocking off the rest of the house at all, you may find that your child can climb your gate, or you may find that you need to keep your child contained in their room at night. You really don't know what your specific issues are going to be until you try it. Then you can start problem solving to find out what works for your family.

Those are my thoughts. Good luck, IME transitions in sleeping arrangements are stressful even when they go smoothly.


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## sissah (Mar 21, 2011)

We cosleep, so maybe I'm ignorant about something here, but if a child has been in a crib with the bedroom door shut, why would they suddenly have a psychological reaction to being on a mattress with the shut door (that they never had access to before and could easily assume it never opened at night)?

Likewise, I also see zero difference between a locked door and a gate the child can't get passed - so what if one allows you to see into an abandoned hallway?

For those attacking the OP for bring hypocritical, there seems to be an awful lot of hypocracy on this thread - including accusing her of being a hypocrite for saying she's a light sleeper, but is concerned she wouldn't wake up, then pages later, with no apology, saying that a light sleeper could very well not awaken.

Parenting is so personal, and we all want to think we do it the right way, so it's easy to attack someone who chooses a different way, but calling her abusive for wanting to keep her child safe until the child is old enough to not have to be concerned about unsupervised seems overkill. For the record, my niece fell off a couch and whacked her head on the floor (Florida - tile over concrete) and ended up with a concussion, so yes, even those of you who think your homes are safe, if you have a climber like the OP, even a seemingly safe house is dangereous from high enough up.


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## hildare (Jul 6, 2009)

didn't read all the responses beyond the 2nd page... i'm sure you've gotten your fair share of judgement already though.

when we were researching montessori floor beds, it was suggested in several places i looked that something similar take place, and that the child's room was a safe place, etc. however, most of what was suggested was a dutch door or a baby gate situation.

if it were me, that would be about my comfort level... i wouldn't totally close the door. i would be ok with a baby gate or a dutch door. however, op, you do know your child best. it's not like you are doing CIO or anything. no judgement here, but i will offer this:

my dh built a stair gate pretty quickly and easily. perhaps you guys could do something like this, taking the room door down (do i remember you're renting?) and installing/ putting the real door back up once you move? a built gate is much sturdier than a baby gate, which i personally wouldn't use or trust not to collapse with a climbing toddler. that way nobody feels shut in or whatever...


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sissah*
> 
> For those attacking the OP for bring hypocritical, there seems to be an awful lot of hypocracy on this thread - including accusing her of being a hypocrite for saying she's a light sleeper, but is concerned she wouldn't wake up, then pages later, with no apology, saying that a light sleeper could very well not awaken.


I never called sobamom a hypocrite. I said her logic for choosing this choice was self-contradictory (which it was). Either you can hear every whimper and wake at every murmur OR you sleep like a log and can't even hear a door open...I don't see how it can be both with any predictability, and since one might wind up sleeping like a log at any given time (which is what I was trying to point out, hence no apology since it does not contradict what I was trying to stress, thankyouverymuch), wouldn't one want to leave the pathway from child to mother open as safely as possible with other ideas and not just leap to the conclusion that the ONLY solution available is to lock the door? There has been no room for discussion of other possiblities to locking the door. Every suggestion that there might be room for other ideas has been shot down as being judgemental, rude, assuming, and acusatory...all of which are false regarding the suggestions offered.

Was there judgement of the choice as MAYBE not being the best available? Absolutelty. Do we have visceral reactions to some choices we read about? Absolutely. But the OP and many (though not all, several have been able to discuss the topic without hurt feelings or anger and keep an open mind) others have been unable to move past the idea that others might not agree with their choice and simply leap the defense without even really discussing the other choice available.

Kind of defeats the purpose of having an open dialogue on a discussion board, don't you think?

Furthermore, an infant has little cognitive abilities to see the difference between a door shut and mommy not within arms reach. An 18 month old understands a great deal more. Mine often cries if she wakes up and the door is shut (usually it is not, but sometimes we don't go back to open it for an hour or two, and she doesn't always cry but more and more so as the months go by and especially now that she is napping on her bed and can walk to the door herself), and not a fussy whiny "I'm a little annoyed it's taking you so long to come for me" cry a truly scared yelp. A nearly 2 and a half year old who is neurotypical knows the difference. Most 2.5 years old are using the toilet with some regularity, some are even dry at night. Most spend the day confidently navigating the house, dressing themselves, feeding themselves, finding mommy or daddy on their own when they need them, playing creatively, drawing recognizable shapes, navigating the playground and familiar buildings independently, riding a bike and playing team sports, swimming, dancing, some play instruments. We're not talking about an infant. Heck, some moms here move from the toddler board to the Childhood board at this age. They have a rapidly developing sense of who they are and their relationship with the world. Most do not and have not slept in a crib for months. Believing that locking a door is the only way to reason with a 2.5 year old, before you have even ever TRIED an alternative BTW, is simply strange to me. It seems to me that given neurotypical circumstances one should be able to have a conversation with the child rather than lock them in, or at least *try to* first before shopping for locking devices.

But as I have said time and again, if that's where you come from, do what you have to do...But don't think you are fooling anyone other than yourself saying you had no choice (which is what Sobamom seems to be saying with such denials as "A gate won't work, I can't install an easily removable sliding divider, I can't use an alarm or bells, I can't I can't I can't.") We all have choices, and we all choose what we think works best. On a board like this it is expected that we will at the very least entertain the notion of other ideas on a thread like this, or at the very least pretend to in the name of democratic discussion.

I have never called the idea abusive. I have said it seems unnecessary. I have said it seems counterintuitive. I have said it seems very age inappropriate. I do not think it is abusive. I can however understand why some people might if their experiences have led them to feel that way. I don't think it is fair to invalidate that reaction because it hurts one's feelings. You are entitled to feel that your choices are the right ones for your family and others are entitiled to feel they remind them of the abuse they received as a child. I don't see why we can't just talk about reasoning and logic and consequences without taking others' observations so personally. I shout at my kids and withold dessert if they do not eat their veggies...Some people here think I am setting my kids up for food issues and anger management issues and have even called my food control abusive and cruel...meh. It's what works for us. Do what works for you. I don't have to agree with it for it to be okay.


----------



## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hildare*
> 
> didn't read all the responses beyond the 2nd page... i'm sure you've gotten your fair share of judgement already though.
> 
> ...


Another excellent suggestion!


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## chewynotcrunchy (Dec 19, 2010)

Could you try something like this? It's a chime that sounds when her bedroom door is opened. You could have the chime in your room so it would wake you without scaring her...


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## Missinnyc (Aug 21, 2003)

Yes, as a foster parent I've taken many fire safety classes and the fire chiefs have always stressed that all people's doors should be shut (not necessarily locked) when sleeping- they said many a time it had clearly saved kids' lives. It keeps fire into whatever room it started in (at least for a while) and gives a bit more time to whoever is sleeping. I go around before going to bed and shut all the doors to every room in the house.

I don't think locking a toddler's door (as long as you are going to go get the kid if she wakes up) is any big deal. No different than other safety measures like carseats or exterior locks.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MissinNYC*
> 
> Yes, as a foster parent I've taken many fire safety classes and the fire chiefs have always stressed that all people's doors should be shut (not necessarily locked) when sleeping- they said many a time it had clearly saved kids' lives. *It keeps fire into whatever room it started in (at least for a while) and gives a bit more time to whoever is sleeping.*


Okay, but how is that a good thing if the fire starts *in the baby's room*? That is the fear I have. How would it save my child's life to have their door closed in that instance? Can you help me explain this?


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## insidevoice (Feb 16, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Marissamom*
> 
> wow, I'm surprised this is such a hot button issue. My DD moved to her own room at 15 months, and has always slept with the door closed. we don't go to bed at the same time she does, and if the door is open she will just keep coming out to see what we're doing. she learned how to open her door at 22 months, two days before her brother was born. after 3 weeks of her not napping and it taking 3 hours fore her to go down at night because she kept checking on us (and coming to make sure we were taking care of the baby if he was fussing), we decided to put a doorknob cover on the inside of her door and see if she would do better being able to open the door in a few months. it just wasn't a time we could handle the stress of the situation. when she knows she can't open the door she happily falls asleep in 5 minutes


This surprises me as well. My older toddler sleeps in his own room now and I have a doorknob cover on the inside at night. I know he's safe and secure, and HE knows it is sleep time. The cover is not on during the day, and at night he actually helps me put it on. He's another kid who will come out repeatedly until he knows he can't, taking him back to bed results in more stress for him than his needing to stay in one place does, he happily settles after a story and a snuggle if he can't leave the room. If he can leave, he becomes anxious and does not settle. I don't expect a child that age to self-rescue in the event of a fire.

I do keep a baby monitor in there, but hear him clearly even if it is off, and I respond if he needs me.

I can't see helping a child remain safe and secure as abuse, I get that it's a hot button issue for people who might have been locked in a room to keep them out of the way, but that's not really the focus here. The op is looking for a way to secure her child at night to ensure safety, she's not looking to toss the child in a dark dank dungeon and toss away the key between the hours of 5 pm and 9 am.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Thandiwe*
> 
> I would be cautious saying never.
> 
> ...


I knew you weren't calling anyone abusive but there were other posters that actually did which is what I was referring to. Sorry...tried to make that clear but I am sorry if it wasn't.

And never...well never like I will never be worried about lightening striking me dead...


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## MamaSquish (Nov 24, 2010)

Oy, so much is the conflict on this thread!

How about just doping her up on Benadryl at night?

KIDDING!!!!!

In all seriousness, if you feel strongly that this is a safety issue for your daughter, then you need to do what YOU think is best and safest for her. If I were you, I'd probably get a good, reliable baby moniter to keep in her room so you can hear what's going on, and install a simple sliding bolt on the outside of the door. If fires are a concern, put a smoke alarm in her room or directly outside her door. Chances are she'll grow out of the getting up and wandering around phase sooner than not.


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## Boot (Jan 22, 2008)

I'm not going to get into the emotional debate (although I have an opinion!) but I have another suggestion for the OP. Have you thought about putting a sleep sack on your child so they can't climb the crib? That's what I do and so do a couple of my friends. Some people will probably think that is abusive but, oh well, you can't please everyone. And 29 months isn't old to be in a crib. I know 3 1/2 year old twins who are still in cribs. Their parents tried them in toddler beds but they missed their cribs. I don't see the problem


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## MsFortune (Dec 5, 2010)

OP hightailed it a few pages ago. People got too judgey so she ditched the thread.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Ms Fortune, why is it "too judgey" to say Frankly, I think you came to the wrong place if all you want is information on how best to lock the door rather than listening to ANY advice on how to avoid needing to lock the door? I don't get where all the feelings of judgement are coming from. It's like me going to a LLL meeting and asking them how I start to wean my 6 month old. Sure there may be some who will help me do that for whatever reason, maybe someone who will support me and get me through it because they have BTDT, but it is hardly the group's purpose for existing, is it? You start by saying "I think I MIGHT have to...what should I do?" Not "I HAVE to, I will not listen to any ideas to the contrary, there is no choice. Help me do what I think is my only option regardless of your feelings on the matter." That's not actually how ANY community discussion works. How can you learn if you never engage in an argument in support of your beliefs?

What I find curious is the dismissive attitude towards the many many suggestions for safe and age appropriate alternatives and the refusal to see other scenarios and possibilities and our perspectives on why locking is not the best idea as anything but judgmental, emotional and assumptious, and then disengaging from the discussion saying it was too judgey while avoiding responding logically or rationally to any of the direct questions about the line of thinking.

Personally, the only time I get so defensive of my decisions and take people's observations and suggestions as personal attacks or judgements or assumptions or accusations, is when I am having a hard time convincing myself of my convictions, and my only recourse is to play the hurt feelings card.


----------



## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Boot*
> 
> I'm not going to get into the emotional debate (although I have an opinion!) but I have another suggestion for the OP. Have you thought about putting a sleep sack on your child so they can't climb the crib? That's what I do and so do a couple of my friends. Some people will probably think that is abusive but, oh well, you can't please everyone. And 29 months isn't old to be in a crib. I know 3 1/2 year old twins who are still in cribs. Their parents tried them in toddler beds but they missed their cribs. I don't see the problem


3.5 year olds who choose the crib are very different from 1.5-2.5 year olds who don't, don't you think? If in the future my 3 yo old asked to go into a crib...well I'd be flummoxed, but apart from that I'd do what was needed to make them feel safe. But for a child who is scaling the crib and ready to be in a bed, and who wants to be out, or get to their parents safely...it's just chalk and cheese, isn't it? I don't see how the two can be compared, can you explain?

Out of curiosity, how do you even find a sleep sack big enough for 2-3 year old, and one that they cannot squirm out of? DD has been squirming out of her sleep sacks and swaddlers since she was about 3 months old. I wake up every morning to a stark naked baby and she is only 16.5 months old. Color me impressed. DS would have been fine with that up to about 18 months and then he would have chewed through it. If I tried that with DD I am pretty sure she would find them in the day time and throw them in garbage when we weren't looking or try to flush them down the toilet. She would be so POed! Unlike her brother (swaddled until 8 or 9 months) she kicked off the swaddle at about 4 weeks and never looked back. Do you ever feel like it might stunt their growth to infantilize a 2-3 year old by imobilizing them in the interest of keeping them from climbing their cribs? Or are there other motives and that just happens to be an inevitable side effect?


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## Boot (Jan 22, 2008)

Just because a toddler starts to explore climbing out of their crib, doesn't mean they are ready for a big bed. I moved my son to a toddler bed somewhere around 2 1/2 because he was climbing out of his crib in a very unsafe fashion (would have fallen head first if his foot got caught). He cried and said he wanted his baby bed back. I wish I'd thought about putting a sleepsack on him. My 15 month old DID actually manage to fall head first out of her crib when I was in the room. She is definitely not ready for a big bed. So she's in a sleep sack for the forseeable future. We all do our best to keep our children safe and happy and healthy but we choose different paths to do so.


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## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hakeber*
> 
> Ms Fortune, why is it "too judgey" to say
> 
> Personally, the only time I get so defensive of my decisions and take people's observations and suggestions as personal attacks or judgements or assumptions or accusations, is when I am having a hard time convincing myself of my convictions, and my only recourse is to play the hurt feelings card.


Uh ppl called her abusive. I'd say that taht was a pretty personal attack/judgement /whatever.


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## belltree (Mar 10, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Boot*
> 
> I'm not going to get into the emotional debate (although I have an opinion!) but I have another suggestion for the OP. Have you thought about putting a sleep sack on your child so they can't climb the crib?


I think that could be dangerous. My child would climb or trying to with the sleeping sack; I'd be afraid they hurt themselves in the process.


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## tzs (Aug 4, 2009)

that's cool if the sleepsack works for you. but i'm getting some really funny mental imagery of what my 20 month old would do to a sleepsack (and this is a kid who was swaddle addicted at least until 9 months!)'

now....if they could only make sleep sacks for adults....


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## csekywithlove (Feb 25, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tzs*
> 
> that's cool if the sleepsack works for you. but i'm getting some really funny mental imagery of what my 20 month old would do to a sleepsack (and this is a kid who was swaddle addicted at least until 9 months!)'
> 
> now....if they could only make sleep sacks for adults....


... They do... Oh my.









http://www.allergybuyersclub.com/cottonfresh-dream-bag-sleep-sacks.html?cmp=dfnt


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## Rylins mama (Aug 22, 2007)

I have not read any responses on this thread but this is just MY personal fear. I would NEVER lock my kids in their room because I worry and I constantly think of what would happen if there was a fire or something. They have baby monitors in their rooms and we have fire detectors but if for some reason they didnt go off and I didnt wake up right away and a fire started in or near their rooms, I would want them to be able to open the door and get out. I have a huge fear of being trapped so I dont even close their doors all the way. DS and DD both wake up usually once a night each and they know to come straight to my room to get me and I put them back to sleep. I just cannot imagine ever locking them in their rooms.


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## YayJennie (Aug 7, 2008)

Wow, interesting topic. I've only read the first two pages, but want to say awesome responses by the OP to some pretty harsh posts. I completely understand where the OP is coming from and have the same concerns with my son. Yes, I usually wake right up when he cries in the middle of the night or calls for me or starts playing with toys, but that doesn't mean he couldn't wake up in the morning and sneak by me and go downstairs, where there are serious safety concerns, without me waking. So yes, for his safety, we lock him in his room. However, because of the layout of the house (our bedrooms are attached) we end up locking our bedroom door on the inside, so we're locked in the bedroom with him. However, I've certainly locked him into his room before for naps or at night before I go to bed. I immediately go for him if he yells for me or I hear him shake the door, but no less, I lock him in his bedroom.

I certainly don't think locking a toddler in a room for their safety and while they're sleeping is going against tenants of attachment parenting. Like a PP said, we buckle our children in to cars for their safety, we strap them into high chairs for their safety...we have to use appropriate constraints at appropriate times to insure our children's safety. Depending on your situation, I don't think it's uncalled for to have a lock on a child's door to keep them in their room under certain circumstances where it would be necessary (like when the parents are asleep and the child could wake and wander the house without waking the parents). Whoever suggested you just let this happen a few times and it will work itself out...that is a HUGE safety concern for me. But then again, I know my child and you don't. I know when he'll be ready to wander the house safely, and when that time comes, I will make that call and not lock his room anymore.

As for how to lock the door, here's what we did. We bought a cheap latch at home depot and installed it. It's a simple hook that we just screwed in (similar to this http://www.instructables.com/files/deriv/FBK/C9TM/G1XBJ9IJ/FBKC9TMG1XBJ9IJ.MEDIUM.jpg) We rent as well, but I figure the landlord won't even notice because we'll take it off before we move and just spackle over it. My son's bedroom door doesn't latch, so doorknob handle things wouldn't work, and the latch is the easiest, cheapest, simplest thing we could think of.

A wind chime on the door is a great suggestion, as is using a baby gate or gating off sections of the house to be safe. But I certainly don't think it's such a terrible idea, infringing on a child's freedom and hindering their growth, to lock them in their room when necessary for their safety. There are definitely a lot of emotional responses going on here, and people jumping down the OP's throat. She said her peace very nicely and there's really no need to get holier than thou and claim it's not "AP" to keep your child safe to the best of your abilities. I do appreciate the well thought out responses and interesting debate going on, but I hope it's stayed civil for the last 4 pages I haven't read yet!


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## lovepickles (Nov 16, 2010)

Seriously? What part of locking your child in a room promotes attachment? That just sounds ridiculous to me.

http://www.attachmentparenting.org/principles/principles.php

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *YayJennie*
> 
> I certainly don't think locking a toddler in a room for their safety and while they're sleeping is going against tenants of attachment parenting.


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## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovepickles*
> 
> Seriously? What part of locking your child in a room promotes attachment? That just sounds ridiculous to me.
> 
> http://www.attachmentparenting.org/principles/principles.php


So letting them wander around the house and get hurt would promote attachment? I guess having ak id with a broken leg from falling off the back of a couch at 3am would mean they'd be much more attached to you...


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

I have never understood the hysteria about locking a toddler's door. How is it different than keeping a toddler in a crib? In both cases, they cannot get out on their own, cannot explore the room, and must call out/make noise if they need something. They also cannot escape on their own in case of fire.

My DS was in a crib till 3 and now is having a hard time making the big-bed adjustment...he clearly misses the crib. I haven't seen a need to lock him in because I have found that I do hear him, and the room is now sufficiently kidproofed. But if it had been a problem, I would have considered it.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovepickles*
> 
> Seriously? What part of locking your child in a room promotes attachment? That just sounds ridiculous to me.
> 
> http://www.attachmentparenting.org/principles/principles.php


She didn't say it promotes attachment. She said it didn't go against the tenants of attachment parenting. I totally agree. AP is about responding to your kids needs. As long as OP goes to her daughter when needed, there isn't anything un-AP about locking the door to keep her safe.


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## insidevoice (Feb 16, 2011)

I know that putting my kid in a sleep sack would make him panic. Reading a story (or 10) and tucking him into a safe room at night, and closing the door in a way that ensures he stays in that safe space is not scary to him.

The younger one- OH! I suspect we will also guarantee that he will stay in his room by securing the door as necessary. Babygate? This is the kid I found on the fridge. A babygate is not going to cut it.

I will happily cosleep with my kids for as long as that works for our family. At a certain point though, they do move to their own space and my job, as a parent is to enable them to have as much freedom as they safely can. Putting kids who don't sleep in cribs in a sleepsack and sticking with the crib would be tantamount to torture for my children. Making sure their room is a completely safe space, and securing the door so they can't get somewhere in the night they can get in trouble is a much better option for everyone in my home. Childproof the house- sure, we do, but there are so many ways for kids to be hurt even in a childproofed house. Heck, since we are potty learning here, locking the lid on the toilet doesn't work (they have figured that lock out anyway.) It's really easy for a toddler- being pretty top heavy- to drown in a toilet, they lean in to play and don't have the lower body mass to get back out.

We all have to find our own comfort levels. I know what mine are, and I know I am not being negligent or abusive in keeping my children safe and secure. If I somehow am violating the crunchy enough standard, so be it. But this feels more like a battle over who is or isn't AP enough more than anything about the question at hand.


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## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

Don't you people get it? If you do anything besides cosleep until child leaves for college you are a bad parent who doesn't practice AP and you should be put on mommy trial for abuse. I bet Hitler's mom used a door lock or baby gate with him.


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## lovepickles (Nov 16, 2010)

Ridiculous! You guys are actually saying locking a child in a room is AP friendly! Most AP parents co-sleep then gently transition. There is nothing gentle about locking a child up. Stop kidding yourself about being in line with attachment principles ... it is like determining your child "needs" to cry it out so therefore CIO is AP friendly! Insanity!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> She didn't say it promotes attachment. She said it didn't go against the tenants of attachment parenting. I totally agree. AP is about responding to your kids needs. As long as OP goes to her daughter when needed, there isn't anything un-AP about locking the door to keep her safe.


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## lovepickles (Nov 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Honey693*
> 
> So letting them wander around the house and get hurt would promote attachment? I guess having ak id with a broken leg from falling off the back of a couch at 3am would mean they'd be much more attached to you...


Fear really does seem to excuse the strangest things. Sleep near your child and you won't have these issues. If you need to lock a door make sure you are on the same side as your child. Otherwise it seems that the child is not ready to sleep so far from the parent.


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## sosurreal09 (Nov 20, 2009)

There ARE alternatives to locking a child up...

There were a lot of suggestions on here but all the people who lock up their child are like "oh no that won't work"

I really don't see how it is not abusive to lock up a 2 y/o or any child for that matter.


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## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

So if it works for most AP parents it'll work for all, right? And you should force them to cosleep even if they don't want to? How is that AP?????????????

I hate how some people refuse to see anything from any viewpoint, but their own (and of course theirs if the only correct view).


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## Boot (Jan 22, 2008)

I was the one who originally suggested the sleepsack but in actual fact, I didn't think of it for my son and we DID put the childproof cover on the doorknob of his room for a short time (until he figured them out). I only suggested the sleepsack as another possible idea. There have been many other good ones. I don't understand the need for people to say well that would NEVER work for my child for this or that reason. That's fine, but it doesn't mean the idea might not be valid for someone else. Like I said before, we all do our best to keep our children safe and secure. I think that's a given. Depending on the personality of the child, their physical abilities, the layout of the house, our own comfort level, etc, we can find different ways to do this. For instance both my kids hated bath seats and climbed right out as soon as they were put in them but obviously they are a good choice for other families. Threads like this should be about brainstorming and supporting each other, or if you strongly feel that someone is making a bad choice then use a bit of tact in your response. Remember these are real people who only want the very best for their children.

This isn't directed at any one poster by the way.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovepickles*
> 
> Ridiculous! You guys are actually saying locking a child in a room is AP friendly! Most AP parents co-sleep then gently transition. There is nothing gentle about locking a child up. Stop kidding yourself about being in line with attachment principles ... it is like determining your child "needs" to cry it out so therefore CIO is AP friendly! Insanity!


No. What I am saying is that I am not so narrow minded as to think that there is only one way to attachment parent that is "right." I didn't bottle feed, but I believe a person can be AP and bottle feed. I didn't work outside of the home, but I don't believe a WOHP can't also attachment parent. And, I don't lock my kid in his room (because I don't have to as there isn't a safety issue associated with it), but I don't believe that locking a door means someone isn't AP. Yes, the title would lead one to think "That is totally against AP." But, when OP explains it, it makes sense. IF my son was locked in his room, I could get to him and get him out within 3 seconds of hearing he was awake and needed me. I assume that is the same for OP. What then is the difference between going pee for five seconds when you can't attend to your kid's needs for a very brief period of time? As long as OP goes to her daughter when she is wanted/needed, what she is considering has zero meaning for attachment parenting.

This thread is seriously getting to be an argument between those who can't think outside of the box at all and those who can.


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## lovepickles (Nov 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Honey693*
> 
> So if it works for most AP parents it'll work for all, right? And you should force them to cosleep even if they don't want to? How is that AP?????????????
> 
> I hate how some people refuse to see anything from any viewpoint, but their own (and of course theirs if the only correct view).


What are you referring to? Who said anything about forcing to cosleep? Do you even understand the definition of co sleeping? It just means nearby.

As far as the viewpoint rant, yes, I fully understand that you are of the impression that I won't budge on locking a child up alone under any circumstance. You are right about that. That must be very frustrating for you.


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## insidevoice (Feb 16, 2011)

How is putting a doorknob cover on a door the same as CIO? I think the assumption here is that parents who do this are simply tossing a kid in a bedroom, closing (and locking) a door, and not doing anything at all with the child until the next morning. Yes, THAT would certainly be abusive. That isn't what is being suggested.

Those of us who do choose to use a door knob cover or a latch or some other method to keep our kids safe are still very attached parents, even if attached in my house doesn't look the same way it might in someone else's. Cosleeping with the child in my house who sleeps with a doorknob cover in his own room doesn't work for him anymore. He doesn't sleep, and when he's overtired he struggles even more than usual to help regulate his behavior. It's not fair to him, and it's not fair to anyone else in the family. By helping him sleep safely in his own space he is better able to enjoy the hours he is awake. In being a parent who can recognize and meet my child's needs as they develop, I am doing exactly what attachment parenting is.

I really think it's absurd to expect that what works for your child and your family will always work for everyone else and that when people do choose a different approach, the belief that they are suddenly abusive is downright horrifying.


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## lovepickles (Nov 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> No. What I am saying is that I am not so narrow minded as to think that there is only one way to attachment parent that is "right." I didn't bottle feed, but I believe a person can be AP and bottle feed. I didn't work outside of the home, but I don't believe a WOHP can't also attachment parent. And, I don't lock my kid in his room (because I don't have to as there isn't a safety issue associated with it), but I don't believe that locking a door means someone isn't AP. Yes, the title would lead one to think "That is totally against AP." But, when OP explains it, it makes sense. IF my son was locked in his room, I could get to him and get him out within 3 seconds of hearing he was awake and needed me. I assume that is the same for OP. What then is the difference between going pee for five seconds when you can't attend to your kid's needs for a very brief period of time? As long as OP goes to her daughter when she is wanted/needed, what she is considering has zero meaning for attachment parenting.
> 
> This thread is seriously getting to be an argument between those who can't think outside of the box at all and those who can.










This thread is ALL about thinking outside of the (locked) box. I agree that there are degrees but locking a kid up is not AP.


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## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

Lovepickles so what would you suggest in this instance? How would you keep a night wanderer safe?


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## Missinnyc (Aug 21, 2003)

In response to the earlier poster- if a fire were to start in a child's bedroom, I imagine having a closed locked door would not be best for that child, no. But the vast majority of fires do not start in bedrooms, especially children's bedrooms. Most start in kitchens, adult bedrooms, basements, etc. You and your child are both statistically much safer with closed (no comment on the locking) doors to sleep. Just like there is some tiny percentage of people who are killed by using their seatbelts in crazy freak accidents, but in general you are much safer using a seatbelt than not. Make sense?


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## lovepickles (Nov 16, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Honey693*
> 
> Lovepickles so what would you suggest in this instance? How would you keep a night wanderer safe?


Share a safe room with minimal stimulation. I gave other alternatives to OP on the first page.


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## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovepickles*
> 
> Share a safe room with minimal stimulation. I gave other alternatives to OP on the first page.


'didn't the OP say her kid won't sleep if she's in the room?


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## insidevoice (Feb 16, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovepickles*
> 
> Share a safe room with minimal stimulation. I gave other alternatives to OP on the first page.


There are kids for whom this just plain ISN'T an option. There are kids who need to sleep in a separate room for any number of reasons. You are fiercely clinging to a solution which- for some reason or another- won't work for everyone, and you are adamantly refusing to accept hat this won't/can't work for everyone.

How do you ensure the safety of a child sleeping in their own room who is not safe wandering the house at night?


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## lovepickles (Nov 16, 2010)

I think it is odd that I'm being accused to clinging to a myriad of solutions as an alternative to ONE thing (locking a child up) that I would never do.

So let me put it another way. I don't doubt that some of you feel there is no alternative to locking a child up alone after they are asleep. I'm sure where you are standing it appears that way.The problem that I have with a locked door isn't a fire or mom not responding ... it is a lack of respect. Those doing it are using unnecessary measures to control the child instead of teaching them how to manage a transition to their new sleep situation. It is disrespectful to the child because by locking that door you are communicating a lack of trust. I'm sure, though, that this communication did not begin with a locked door and it won't end there either. I'm sure there are other examples of excessive control and mistrust communicated throughout the day ... so your child is most likely reacting to continuous constraint and feels weird when left to their own devices.

Fear of your child roaming and jumping off a couch is very real and I don't doubt there will be consequences without an intervention ... but this type of lock up intervention is far more emotionally harmful than good. Take a few steps back and look at other ways you may be controlling your child. This problem didn't occur with your child's ability to stay put ... the problem is that your child needs to develop a sense of self regulation and that will never happen if you are locking the child in. The problem happened much earlier, so I would encourage all of you to reflect on what brought you to this rather than adding new constraints each time they don't DO what you want them to. It is far too reactionary and lacks insight. The fact that so many get to this point and don't reflect on whether or not it is ok to lock up your child saddens me very deeply.

For those of you TRULY INTERESTED in alternatives please consider reading "Free Range Kids" or "Unconditional Parenting".


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## insidevoice (Feb 16, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovepickles*
> 
> I think it is odd that I'm being accused to clinging to a myriad of solutions as an alternative to ONE thing (locking a child up) that I would never do.
> 
> ...


Personal attacks are completely out of line. You are pulling the "I'm a better parent because I do xyz!" card. I have read the books cited, as well as a myriad of others. Disagreement does not necessarily imply ignorance.

Your assumption, and statements that you are "sure there are other examples of excessive control and mistrust," is ill-guided at best.

I am certainly open to civil discussion regarding this, but I don't think that's going to take place when people are unwilling to hear anything said by someone disagreeing with them.


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## treeoflife3 (Nov 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovepickles*
> 
> Ridiculous! You guys are actually saying locking a child in a room is AP friendly! Most AP parents co-sleep then gently transition. There is nothing gentle about locking a child up. Stop kidding yourself about being in line with attachment principles ... it is like determining your child "needs" to cry it out so therefore CIO is AP friendly! Insanity!


my kid wouldn't even notice if I locked the door. I close her door all the way because when it is open, she won't go to sleep. She won't open the door on her own to come to me. She still sits in her room calling out to me, sometimes even banging on the door. I've told her every single day for months she can come to me if she needs to or it is morning and time to get up... she won't. she loves to go in and out of her room all day as well as open and close all the other doors, but when it comes to bedtime, she just will not open that door until I tell her she can in the morning.

Locking the door for ONLY the time they are asleep, and opening it as soon as they wake up hardly seems damaging when there are young toddlers who will behave as if they are locked in anyway.

I am not the type to lock a bedroom door, including my own. However, there are kids who are safer with their doors locked, who would otherwise get into all sorts of trouble in the early hours of the morning while everyone is asleep. Some kids want to explore a dark house alone, and some of those kids wanting to explore want to explore things they normally can't... climbing onto counters and fridges, pulling at electrical cords, jumping off couches, splashing in the toilet... most kids probably don't need a door locked and I think everyone should see if their kid does before doing it... but some kids need to be confined to their room during sleeping hours.

It would be very un AP to knowingly allow a child to play in a dark house completely unsupervised if they are also the type of child to get into all sorts of trouble when there isn't a conscious person around to keep an ear open when they are out of sight. To do so would be to knowingly and willingly allow your child to risk a much more certain death than a child who's bedroom door is left open because the parents know they won't go anywhere except straight to mommy when they wake up.


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## YayJennie (Aug 7, 2008)

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *lovepickles*
> 
> I think it is odd that I'm being accused to clinging to a myriad of solutions as an alternative to ONE thing (locking a child up) that I would never do.
> 
> ...


Locking a toddler into a room at night when they are sleeping for their own safety is not excessive control, and I think that's where this disagreement stems from. Your original post stated that we use constraint devices when needed (carseats, etc), and I think you just have to accept that sometimes it is necessary for certain toddlers in certain situations to be locked into their room for their own safety. The list of alternatives you gave in your original post worked for you and your family and your child. Why is it so hard to accept that different families need different ways of granting their children different freedoms at different times? Assuming that, because a parent locks their toddler in their safe, secure room, where the child feels comfortable and the parent responds to the child's needs, the parent must also be using "continuous constraint" all day is just absurd! There is no disrespect in buckling a child in a carseat when in the car, restraining a baby in a bouncer when you need to put the baby down, or locking an active toddler into a room where they feel safe when it is in their best interest to stay in their room. It is completely inappropriate to assume that parents who find the best thing to do in certain situations is to lock their toddler in their room are causing their child emotional harm.

No one said there is NO alternative to locking a toddler in their room at night, but sometimes it is the best alternative for certain families in certain situations.

And you know what? You're right, I don't trust my 26 month old to wander my house unattended. I think it would be very improper if I did have that trust in my child at this point in his development. And for most kids, there are stages where it is not developmentally appropriate for a parent to unconditionally trust them! There are valid safety concerns around my house and it is in his best interest to stay in his room when I am asleep. Period. Now, I accept that maybe in your house, with your child, things are different and you are able to allow your child to wander unattended. Please respect that in other people's homes, that may not be the case.


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## lovepickles (Nov 16, 2010)

You guys are just beyond incredible in your justification for locking a child up at night. Absolutely incredible. I have nothing more to say on this topic. I am completely disgusted.


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovepickles*
> 
> .The problem that I have with a locked door isn't a fire or mom not responding ... it is a lack of respect. Those doing it are using unnecessary measures to control the child instead of teaching them how to manage a transition to their new sleep situation. It is disrespectful to the child because by locking that door you are communicating a lack of trust.


We have a gate up. It is not unlike having a locked door. Communicating a lack of trust to a two year old? Really? I think you're reading into things a little too deeply. If I refuse to give my 10 month old a hotdog, am I conveying I don't trust her not to choke on it? If you look at it in the way you're trying to define trust, I guess so. We have the gate up for my son which communicates to him NOT that we don't trust him, but that we are keeping him safe at night. I rarely sleep deeply, but if I were to and he came out and I didn't hear him, I am assured that he won't go unlock the front door and leave in the middle of the night...which he has been known to try during the day so I know he is capable of it. When he decides to sleep with us, we let him. When he wakes up and yells at the gate, we go get him and bring him in our bed. Its about safety. Not trust. Those who trust their toddlers and preschoolers in the way you're describing are going to one day find themselves wishing they hadn't. Knock, knock. OP's daughter gets let out of her room when she wakes up 5 seconds after her request. Gets locked in after she's asleep. What is so disrespectful about that?

And speaking of respect... I find it very disrespectful to OP to keep harping on co-sleeping when she has already stated that doesn't work for her DD. And to suggest people on MDC don't understand the meaning of co-sleeping....please.


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## loraxc (Aug 14, 2003)

Quote:


> Those doing it are using unnecessary measures to control the child instead of teaching them how to manage a transition to their new sleep situation. It is disrespectful to the child because by locking that door you are communicating a lack of trust.


Uh huh. So if I respect say, my 16mo, he/she will understand this whole thing where oh yesss, the dark house and the flight of uncarpeted stairs ARE there, but he/she does not neeeed to fall down them because of all the trust we have.

I think this whole debate is a lot like child leashes or harnesses or whatever you want to call them. The adults are putting an adult meaning/connotation on something that does not have that meaning to a child. The child does not have the locked room = evil abuse thing in his/her mind any more than he/she has the crib = evil cage or harness = evil leash connotation.

Also, sometimes I just wish people would come out and say what they really think. In this case, I think it's that anyone who does not cosleep is doing it wrong. I notice nobody has responded to the point about cribs. Seriously, what IS the difference between confining a kid in a crib and in a locked room?


----------



## treeoflife3 (Nov 14, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovepickles*
> 
> You guys are just beyond incredible in your justification for locking a child up at night. Absolutely incredible. I have nothing more to say on this topic. I am completely disgusted.


you say 'locking a child up at night' as if they won't be tended to at any point between 7pm and 8am. It isn't like people are suggesting putting their kid in the room at bedtime and just simply walking away and refusing to go back til they are good and ready in the morning. now THAT would be disgusting.


----------



## tzs (Aug 4, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovepickles*
> 
> Fear really does seem to excuse the strangest things. Sleep near your child and you won't have these issues. If you need to lock a door make sure you are on the same side as your child. Otherwise it seems that the child is not ready to sleep so far from the parent.


i think that many hardcore co-sleeping advocates have never had a child who CANNOT co-sleep. i mean, yes, my kid can do the "co-" part of it but "sleep" is not going to happen if we are in the same room. and i did sleep with her as a newborn, as long as we could until it became obvious that she slept better not only in her own bed but in her own room. we have spent many nights in hotels or at relatives houses in the same room since then and it is impossible...she does not fall asleep with company (and i believe the OP said the same about her child. as much as you try, it just does.not.work), as much as i'd love to have all-night cuddles with her. and since i don't see sleep deprivation as healthy, good for a babe's development, or in line with AP principles (yes, sleep deprivation is a form of torture) we have dd in her own room.

and i don't think being realistic about the trouble an unattended toddler roaming free can get into is the same as fear. it's about keeping them safe. knowing that crossing a highway is dangerous is not fear...it's reality. i don't make my toddler hold my hand when doing it because i am a fearful parent but because i am a conscious one.


----------



## tzs (Aug 4, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lovepickles*
> 
> I think it is odd that I'm being accused to clinging to a myriad of solutions as an alternative to ONE thing (locking a child up) that I would never do.
> 
> ...


you know what....heck yeah i don't trust my 20 month old BABY! trust involves knowing that the child knows boundaries and restraint and that is simply not age appropriate to expect that of a BABY. i love my kid, i respect my kid, i know she is kind and smart and loving and capable of many things. i have taught at a reggio emilio preschool and i have seen the amazing things that small children are capable of. but i'm sorry, self-restraint is NOT something i trust my 20 month-old with. i mean, i don't even have to leave the room to see this in action.

i have no problem with letting her free-range during the day when i am awake and aware of what's going on...but at night? alone at 20 months in a 3 story old home??? and if something g-d forbid happened it would be HOURS before i discovered it? no way is that AP in my book. i'm pretty sure most people would call it negligent.


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## 7thDaughter (Jan 8, 2006)

First, the tone of so many postings here has been so hot -- angry, defensive, attacking, using "logic" to attack another person (which I view as a form of verbal abuse) that I could not bear to read them. This is not what I expect of women at MDC. Normally I would not choose to follow a thread with so much rancor. But I do have something to add.

Dr Sears said in his book he had no idea what all those parents of high needs babies were talking about -- until he got one of his own. I see the divide in this discussion between those who have experienced such a child, and those who have not.

Many of you have not experienced the pain of keeping a truly "difficult" child safe. At night your child walks down the hall to join you, or cries out for you. Please understand you are lucky. My dd would get up and be over any gate, out on the balcony, down the street, back in the garden, over any fence, up every bookcase, on the top shelf in the closet, and at the age of 16 months falling out a 2nd story window when the screen fell out (not on my watch). She was hospitalized overnight with a bruised liver. It was horrible. Yes, I learned to lock her up and I had to learn to forgive or my marriage would have ended. Her father was in the room not 4 feet away when he turned around and saw she had climbed up to the window. She was not unsupervised. We love her so much and we had to find ways to keep her safe. She never slept the night through until she was 4 1/2. She had night terrors 3 times a week for years. This is when a child is in an altered sleep state, screaming mindlessly and does not recognize anyone, all you can do is hold the child and wait till it's over and they fall back into a real sleep. I was in her room before she started screaming most nights, and her dad would often fall asleep holding her hand. Yet because we had to find a way to keep her safe, some of you would name us negligent, or abusive?

As soon as I read the OP's first post I knew this was a conscientious mother who was looking for options. No-one here has any idea how much thought and effort she had already put into trying to keep her child safe. She did not deserve the flaming she got. Please let's treat each other with more kindness and respect.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Boot*
> 
> Just because a toddler starts to explore climbing out of their crib, doesn't mean they are ready for a big bed. I moved my son to a toddler bed somewhere around 2 1/2 because he was climbing out of his crib in a very unsafe fashion (would have fallen head first if his foot got caught). He cried and said he wanted his baby bed back. I wish I'd thought about putting a sleepsack on him. My 15 month old DID actually manage to fall head first out of her crib when I was in the room. She is definitely not ready for a big bed. So she's in a sleep sack for the forseeable future. We all do our best to keep our children safe and happy and healthy but we choose different paths to do so.


Thanks for explaining that. I guess I can see that. When my DS started doing this(and my DD id doing this now) , I moved the crib next to the spare bed lowered the rail on that side, and then laid an inflatible matress on the floor at the foot of the bed to create a safe route out. It worked really well for us, and then when they get to my bed, I just cuddle them and take them back to their room, for more songs and cuddle time and lay with them until they resettle (usually much easier midnight than early evening for us). How do you keep them from taking off the sleep sacks?


----------



## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Honey693*
> 
> Uh ppl called her abusive. I'd say that taht was a pretty personal attack/judgement /whatever.


I believe only a few people outright called the PRACTICE not the parent abusive, or made reference to it being abusive and that was *after* the OP left. I did not think that was what Ms Fortune was referring to. I got called judgemental on this thread at the first post which was merely to suggest that before you leap to the conclusion that locking is the only and best option, why not try option XYZ? All of which were shot down and snidely brushed off.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *YayJennie*
> 
> Wow, interesting topic. I've only read the first two pages, but want to say awesome responses by the OP to some pretty harsh posts. I completely understand where the OP is coming from and have the same concerns with my son. Yes, I usually wake right up when he cries in the middle of the night or calls for me or starts playing with toys, but that doesn't mean he couldn't wake up in the morning and sneak by me and go downstairs, where there are serious safety concerns, without me waking. So yes, for his safety, we lock him in his room. However, because of the layout of the house (our bedrooms are attached) we end up locking our bedroom door on the inside, so we're locked in the bedroom with him. However, I've certainly locked him into his room before for naps or at night before I go to bed. I immediately go for him if he yells for me or I hear him shake the door, but no less, I lock him in his bedroom.
> 
> ...


There is a big difference between locking your child in a room alone and locking a child in with you -- access to YOU, the person who makes them feel safe. My only point in bringing up the relevance with AP was.,..did you really expect NOT to get advice on alternatives to locking the door on a AP website? If it is truly what your child needs for their needs than go for it, but it should be a LAST resort not an only resort, and the OP hasn't yet explored other options. That's what we were trying to offer her, and with each post she grew more and more defensive completely fabricating assumptions and accussations from people who were offering ideas and alternatives.

Quote:



> Originally Posted by *loraxc*
> 
> I have never understood the hysteria about locking a toddler's door. How is it different than keeping a toddler in a crib? In both cases, they cannot get out on their own, cannot explore the room, and must call out/make noise if they need something. They also cannot escape on their own in case of fire.
> 
> My DS was in a crib till 3 and now is having a hard time making the big-bed adjustment...he clearly misses the crib. I haven't seen a need to lock him in because I have found that I do hear him, and the room is now sufficiently kidproofed. But if it had been a problem, I would have considered it.


1) I personally wouldn't keep a toddler in a crib, either, but whatever works. I'd find away for them to enjoy the benefits of the crib AND the benefits of being a toddler as described in my previous post.

2) THAT is the HUGE whomping distinction I have been trying to get to!!! You tried the alternative and noticed you didn't need to lock the door. You TRIED it. It work, You trusted your kid enough to let them try out their new freedom and lo and behold they stayed in their room. You did not leap to the conclusion that only locking will work and that any suggestion to the contrary is a personal attack on your parenting style.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Boot*
> 
> I was the one who originally suggested the sleepsack but in actual fact, I didn't think of it for my son and we DID put the childproof cover on the doorknob of his room for a short time (until he figured them out). I only suggested the sleepsack as another possible idea. There have been many other good ones. I don't understand the need for people to say well that would NEVER work for my child for this or that reason. That's fine, but it doesn't mean the idea might not be valid for someone else. Like I said before, we all do our best to keep our children safe and secure. I think that's a given. Depending on the personality of the child, their physical abilities, the layout of the house, our own comfort level, etc, we can find different ways to do this. For instance both my kids hated bath seats and climbed right out as soon as they were put in them but obviously they are a good choice for other families. Threads *like this should be about brainstorming and supporting each other, or if you strongly feel that someone is making a bad choice then use a bit of tact in your response.* Remember these are real people who only want the very best for their children.
> 
> This isn't directed at any one poster by the way.


I agree with this, but I would also add that tact is not a universal concept nor does it come in one form. I have said things here which I have felt were stated calmly, fairly, decently and they were labelled as personal attacks by the OP. That tells me it isn't my lack of tact that has the OP or others upset, it is the fact that I suggest there might be other options and that the OP in particular does not feel like entertaining those ideas or giving logical reasons as to why they won't work.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> No. What I am saying is that I am not so narrow minded as to think that there is only one way to attachment parent that is "right." I didn't bottle feed, but I believe a person can be AP and bottle feed. I didn't work outside of the home, but I don't believe a WOHP can't also attachment parent. And, I don't lock my kid in his room (because I don't have to as there isn't a safety issue associated with it), but I don't believe that locking a door means someone isn't AP. Yes, the title would lead one to think "That is totally against AP." But, when OP explains it, it makes sense. IF my son was locked in his room, I could get to him and get him out within 3 seconds of hearing he was awake and needed me. I assume that is the same for OP. What then is the difference between going pee for five seconds when you can't attend to your kid's needs for a very brief period of time? As long as OP goes to her daughter when she is wanted/needed, what she is considering has zero meaning for attachment parenting.
> 
> This thread is seriously getting to be an argument between those who can't think outside of the box at all and those who can.


I agree with you on this APtoddler mama. But my only point with bringing up the AP aspect was that this is the sort of board you come to get advice on how to avoid such tactics FIRST and then if all else fails you might discuss with a few mamas in PMs about how to do so as gently as possible. It is a not a board where you get to be hyper defensive and accuse people of making personal attacks against you when they suggest you have other options you aren't looking at. And that is how this went down. A few suggetsions that this feels like a really awful dangerous idea and the OP went OFF. Saying actually if I'd read her OP I would know she didn't want alternatives, she only wanted to know how to lock her kid in. Sorry, but that's not how conversations tend to work here. We discuss options no matter how uncomfortable it might make people. Outside the box is exactly what we were trying to help the OP see.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *insidevoice*
> 
> How is putting a doorknob cover on a door the same as CIO? I think the assumption here is that parents who do this are simply tossing a kid in a bedroom, closing (and locking) a door, and not doing anything at all with the child until the next morning. Yes, THAT would certainly be abusive. That isn't what is being suggested.
> 
> ...


I don't think it is the same as CIO. I think a doorknob cover to a bedroom seems either superfulous (because so many have said their kids don't even try the door to open it, so why bother?), useless (because if they can get into ANYTHING chances are they can get the cover off anyway or will be able to soon) or age-inappropriate (if they need to get out, they will try to get out and wouldn't it be best to find a way to direct them to YOU instead of locking them in?). If they are trying to get out and can't, aren't they crying and then you go in and then they can't sleep so you leave, right? and then they are fine and don't try to get out? Or what? I am really trying to follow the event but it just seems to be glazed over...how can a child NEED to have the door locked (closed I get, mine both need the light and action from outside cut off to fall asleep...why locked?) to go to sleep and more importantly (my bigger point of confusion) STAY asleep? How does a child know when they are asleep if the door is locked or not? Also, if a child ASKS to have a door locked is that not VASTLY different from assuming the child must be locked in to be safe and that there is no other option and it isn't even worth TRYING another option? I don't think everything that works for me will work for everyone, but I would like to think that before embarking on the next stage of my child's life that I TRY other options first, when going on a board like this for advice, that I CONSIDER other options first before taking the proposal of options as a personal attack, judgement of my choices, and leaping to the conclusions that a lock is the only way. Especially at 29 months!!!!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MissinNYC*
> 
> In response to the earlier poster- if a fire were to start in a child's bedroom, I imagine having a closed locked door would not be best for that child, no. But the vast majority of fires do not start in bedrooms, especially children's bedrooms. Most start in kitchens, adult bedrooms, basements, etc. You and your child are both statistically much safer with closed (no comment on the locking) doors to sleep. Just like there is some tiny percentage of people who are killed by using their seatbelts in crazy freak accidents, but in general you are much safer using a seatbelt than not. Make sense?


Thanks. I thought this got lost in the fighting! So if I am blocking off the living area with a sliding door, and the kitchen with its own door and the laundry room with its own door and the office and bathrooms with their own doors...and the only open doors are the ones between my room and my babes' rooms that are literally 3 feet apart then that's well within keeping with fire codes, especially since we have no electronics plugged in in the master bedroom, and only small lamps in the children's rooms? I assume that's where fires starting in grown ups rooms come from, lap tops and clocks and stuff. We keep all of that out of our bedroom.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *YayJennie*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I vastly disagree with Lovepickles on this one. I don't think a toddler should have free reign of the house. I do think there are better ways to safely corral a child from their room to their parents, and one should at least consider trying those ideas out before suggesting that we are closed minded a-holes (not that you did, but that was the general tone of the posts from the OP since the second post of hers) for saying otherwise. In fact the OP and several others have suggested that no other alternatives could ever work, and that is why they have no option. Some of us are merely saying...c'mon. Put your thinking caps on. There are alternatives, and that's why you post a thread like this here, to get alternatives, not to get unconditional support.

I guess for me, this is akin to me coming on here and announcing that my child is climbing out of her crib, so I have no option but to close off the top of the crib. What methods do you all think is best? Should I use plexiglass or mesh? Which do you think would secure the crib best? Obviously in coming to THIS board I would expect options OTHER than closing off the top oif the crib and expect to see many other alternatives and if I started to deny any and all alternatives as viable options I would start to get a little abuse from posters wondering what the heck I was doing on a board like this if all I wanted was hardware advice?

It's not that this is like CIO but the questions IS sort of like asking, "my child cries too much, which ear plugs do you find work the best for blocking out the noise?" Isn't it better to ask this sort of question in a PM from the few parents you are sure will relate to you rather than open yourself up to a board of women who it doesn't take long to figure out will have a visceral reaction to such a question? Or at the very least if you DO choose to post it, not leap on every alternative suggestion in defensive attack calling it assumptious, rude, wrong, accusatory, etc...when they were only suggestions?

KWIM?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> We have a gate up. It is not unlike having a locked door. Communicating a lack of trust to a two year old? Really? I think you're reading into things a little too deeply. If I refuse to give my 10 month old a hotdog, am I conveying I don't trust her not to choke on it? If you look at it in the way you're trying to define trust, I guess so. We have the gate up for my son which communicates to him NOT that we don't trust him, but that we are keeping him safe at night. I rarely sleep deeply, but if I were to and he came out and I didn't hear him, I am assured that he won't go unlock the front door and leave in the middle of the night...which he has been known to try during the day so I know he is capable of it. When he decides to sleep with us, we let him. When he wakes up and yells at the gate, we go get him and bring him in our bed. Its about safety. Not trust. Those who trust their toddlers and preschoolers in the way you're describing are going to one day find themselves wishing they hadn't. Knock, knock. OP's daughter gets let out of her room when she wakes up 5 seconds after her request. Gets locked in after she's asleep. What is so disrespectful about that?
> 
> And speaking of respect... I find it very disrespectful to OP to keep harping on co-sleeping when she has already stated that doesn't work for her DD. And to suggest people on MDC don't understand the meaning of co-sleeping....please.


I think you are being a little disingenuous to say that a 29 month old is no different in cognitive thinking than a 10 month old. Really. Also a gate blocking off a living area, is different than a locked door blocking off the child from mommy and daddy.

Also the OP said, she gets locked in before she falls asleep (she also said she only gets locked in when she is asleep, which was one of many contradictory pieces of information we got that made me scratch my head). The door is shut when she is settling in and would stay locked in until she wakes up and calls for mommy. Hence why I asked what the point of the lock is if the DD never even tries the doorknob? What's the point?

I'm not a co-sleeper so I agree with you on that last part. It doesn't work. I'll let that go. Doesn't work for me either...but why can't it work to try, at least TRY, one of the many other alertnatives offered....a gate won't work? How about a door across the hall? A door won't work? How about a bell? A bell won't wake you, how about an alarm? If neither of those would wake you, how can you be so sure that you would wake up at the first whimper or murmur? Is that not a massive disconnect? Why is a lock the only viable option? What's going on here and why won't you share what it is that makes your case so different? There has been no response to those questions.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *7thDaughter*
> 
> First, the tone of so many postings here has been so hot -- angry, defensive, attacking, *using "logic" to attack another person (which I view as a form of verbal abuse) that I could not bear to read them*. This is not what I expect of women at MDC. Normally I would not choose to follow a thread with so much rancor. But I do have something to add.
> 
> ...


1) That's what I thought, which was why I offered some options...but it became clear in her *second and third post* that she wasn't looking for options at all...she was looking for hardware to keep her DD in her room. She told me that drectly and told me I was being rude and asumptious for suggesting otherwise. There are multiple alternatives to gates as wekll and also none of those have been entertained. If at the end of the day locking the door is the ONLY safe option, you do what you have to do, but I personally would be looking to move if that were the case, especially since, as the OP stated, she is renting.

2) You view *logic* as a form of verbal abuse? You think it abusive to ask someone to support their reasoning with clear coherent logic (as you have done)? Logic is how problems are solved, how we reach reasonable conclusions. It is how we discern between truth and fiction. I am sure you did not mean that the way it came across, can you explain?

I suggest, until the OP tries other options she can't possibly know what will be the best, but locking a child in COULD have unwanted consequences. Providing a safe route (defined in different ways) to mommy should they wake in the middle of the night? What could go wrong there? Please enlighten me, as I do not want to leave my child in danger either. Isn't it worth a shot before locking the child in?


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## YayJennie (Aug 7, 2008)

^^hakeber you would be the person I'm referring to when I said I'm enjoying the well thought out responses and interesting debate  nak but wanted to add that!


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## tzs (Aug 4, 2009)

can we just be honest here and admit that this thread has gotten a little out of hand?

not because it's not an interesting topic, but because for the most part despite our differing practices and thoughts and experiences, most of us are essentially agreeing that we have to keep our kids safe, we should try to think of alternatives, and what works for some may not work for others.

in reality, and i'm not going to mince words here, there is really only one poster (and hakeber....it's not you, i've enjoyed your thoughts) who is really stirring the pot and causing the rest of us to think we are arguing against each other when really, if you were to take out certain selected posts, there would be nothing to fuel the fire.

although i have to admit that i stopped being insulted several pages ago and instead have been checking in to rubberneck and see if there is anything else that i do that has been labeled abusive.


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## anjsmama (Apr 6, 2011)

WOW - SO much stuff here I hardly know what to say. I admit I only read about 4 pages of this so if the OP has disappeared I apologize.

OP:

I understand where you're coming from, though I also understand the responses suggesting alternatives. We moved DS to mattress-on-the-floor when he climbed out of his crib and hit his head on the floor at 18 months old. He has a VERY similar personality to what you describe, and at only 18 mo, was just not capable of keeping himself safe with free roam. So we babyproofed his whole room, and put the little door covers on the door. After a week, I realized he never went anywhere near the door.... he would wake up, sit up, and go, "Mom. Mom. Mom."







Obviously, if he was upset at night it was VERY easy to hear him & go to him, and also easy to hear him when he stirred in the morning. When I realized he wasn't even attempting the door (and believe me, no one was more surpised than me), I put two baby gates (as in, one on top of another) at the stairs, and left the door open. That way he could roam to the bathroom or our bedroom or his playroom, even (also babyproofed), but not downstairs to the land of kitchen knives and the like. Nearly 1.5 years later those covers are still on his door, out of pure laziness, never took them off. But we leave his door open at night, and he still calls to us when he needs us. I can count on one hand the number of times he has actually come into our room.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tzs*
> 
> can we just be honest here and admit that this thread has gotten a little out of hand?
> 
> ...


That's a very dimplomatic way of putting it. LOL

LovePickles, I think your intentions are good for the most part. You want to express the idea of trusting a child, and not infantilizing a child who is showing signs of being ready to sleep differently, I get that. And I agree with you that keeping a child contained doesn't give them the opportunities to learn how to cope with new skills...but you don't go from crawling to running the NYC marathon overnight, and you might be going a little a too far and not be sure how to go back. Fwiw. most of us long time posters have SOOOO BTDT in an MDC discussion. (Hollah if ya hear me!) but there is a point when you have to concede other's points or start answering the hard questions. I mean, maybe you live in a romper room where you only have bean bags and plushy toys and your floors are made of foam rubber, but most of us don't really have homes like that, so yeah, having a 2 year old roam free in a large house is not a terrific idea. (Then again some adults I know shouldn't have free reign of the house at certain tmes of the night either, LOL) You might just try to breathe and reboot with the whole "disgusted" and "incredible" stuff, KWIM?

ETA: LP, I get what you are saying, and mostly I do agree with the heart of what you are saying, but your tone is a little..RAWR, and you can't say for certain why a child might want to roam in the middle of the night and another might not. Did my 3yo son throw a rock at his head because I never let him throw rocks at his head? Maybe, but can you blame me for not letting him throw rocks at his own head? (of course once he did, he had no need to repeat the experiment, still I wish he'd let me show him how gravity works without the need for three stitches on his forehead, KWIM?) I think as mothers we are right to be afraid of our children hurting themselves. Who hasn't witnessed their toddler dangling from a playground equipment or a tree limb or about to play kissy kissy with the neighbor's rottweiller. These things are terrifying and a dark house alone while we are asleep? Forget it. But I would also agree that sometimes we have to find a balance and a middle ground between our fears and their realities as growing people and hopefully find a path that honors both. It's not easy to let go of that control, but if we do so in small steps, we honor who they are becoming as people and sometimes we find out they are more trustworthy than we thought. If some people feel a locked knob reaches that balance, I am sure it will eventually do no great harm, when done in the right spirit...it just would be nice to feel the alternatives offered were heard with an open heart...I get that. It's a tad frustrating to be told off for that for sure.

But I really like your windchime idea!

Who else thinks this thread needs more cowbell?


----------



## starling&diesel (Nov 24, 2007)

Hollah!


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## Honey693 (May 5, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hakeber*
> 
> Who else thinks this thread needs more cowbell?


My toddler actually found my cowbell from a hockey game and is running around with it as I type. Now I'm sitting her thinking "and the only thing we need is more Tylenol!"


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Honey693*
> 
> My toddler actually found my cowbell from a hockey game and is running around with it as I type. Now I'm sitting her thinking "and the only thing we need is more Tylenol!"


LOL That's AWESOME! It's been a long time since I made it to a hockey game...cowbells from a hockey game...I never would have put those two together as natural allies. Fantastic!


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hakeber*
> 
> I think you are being a little disingenuous to say that a 29 month old is no different in cognitive thinking than a 10 month old. Really. Also a gate blocking off a living area, is different than a locked door blocking off the child from mommy and daddy.


Well, if it sounds disingenuous, it is probably because to me, it is just as absurb to trust a 29 month old not to get into danger as it is to feed a 10 month old a hotdog. My three year old has escaped out a window with about three seconds of us being in another room. I don't trust my three year old. I am probably not going to trust him when he's four either. Or five. Because he is a kid, and kids are going to make mistakes. Its part of typical child development. It doesn't mean I don't love and respect him. It just means I am not going to trust that he is safe if I am not ensuring it through whatever is age appropriate at the time.

But anyhow, yes! yes! yes! to whoever said this thread is getting out of hand. Totally agree and I'm ready to be done with it too!


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## tzs (Aug 4, 2009)

no no no!!!!!! i said it was getting out of hand....NOT that i wanted to be done with it! 

ugh....i obviously need to get out more....

well, until the next online drama...sigh....


----------



## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> Well, if it sounds disingenuous, it is probably because to me, it is just as absurb to trust a 29 month old not to get into danger as it is to feed a 10 month old a hotdog. My three year old has escaped out a window with about three seconds of us being in another room. I don't trust my three year old. I am probably not going to trust him when he's four either. Or five. Because he is a kid, and kids are going to make mistakes. Its part of typical child development. It doesn't mean I don't love and respect him. *It just means I am not going to trust that he is safe if I am not ensuring it through whatever is age appropriate at the time.*
> 
> But anyhow, yes! yes! yes! to whoever said this thread is getting out of hand. Totally agree and I'm ready to be done with it too!


Exactly...age appropriate is the key, isn't it? Didn't you say up thread that you don't lock your child in his room? That you use gates to protect his safety and think that probably would be a better choice if one had the option? I still agree with you that that would be an age appropriate way to strike a balance between natural mistrust and building trust.

Cowbell.


----------



## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> APToddlerMama:
> 
> OP's daughter gets let out of her room when she wakes up *5 seconds after her request*. Gets locked in after she's asleep. What is so disrespectful about that?


Just had to say...this number is completely made up. I know why you did it, but it's not anywhere in any of the OP's responses. I don't even understand how the OP or anyone could say for certain that this was true and she never did. She said "right away", and I think "immediately"...then she also said that she slept through her daughter ripping off wallpaper only feet from her head, and would likely not be able to hear a door open, hear a toddler moving furniture or stacking toys to scale a four foot gate, and would not be awakened by windchimes or a bell...







...so 5 seconds seems like a very kind estimate. You are very sweet to assume any of us have such cat like reflexes when it comes to children shouting from behind a closed door. You must be a better sleep listener than me.

Not that I can say if I respond in five seconds or ten seconds or ten minutes. Some days I am certain it has been a millisecond because I have not yet drifted to sleep, others I awake from such a deep sleep It could have been an hour for all I know...which is why as soon as my kids are able to move to me on their own, I make it so. Safely...but on their terms as much as possible, as soon as possible.


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## Sfcmama (Aug 29, 2010)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *7thDaughter*
> 
> First, the tone of so many postings here has been so hot -- angry, defensive, attacking, using "logic" to attack another person (which I view as a form of verbal abuse) that I could not bear to read them. This is not what I expect of women at MDC. Normally I would not choose to follow a thread with so much rancor. But I do have something to add.
> 
> ...


Amen! When such judgement ("disgust") and rancor emerge, it makes me fearful that we as a community are affirming beliefs that we are AP zealots unable to respect alternative choices, thereby turning people off to AP rather than inviting them toward it. And can I add to that my sadness about length of membership on mdc being used in argument?! Just cuz you been here longer doesn't mean you're opinions carry any more weight.

My deepest apologies to the OP for the thred getting so out of hand. I hope you find the solutions you need. (we use bolsters to keep dd on her floor bed for naps. Nighttime is still with us - because thats what works best, not because it's "right")


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## amma_mama (May 20, 2008)

I am jumping in VERY late to long and heated discussion, but here it goes...

I understand where the OP and some other "pro'doorlock" posters are coming from and would feel more comfortable with the idea of locking a door if I also had a monitor set up in case I could not hear them very well. While we did not face this issue, as our apartment was reasonably babyproofed (and I also co-slept with DD many nights), if that is not possible, then I think a door lock is an option, albeit a last resort option (if a gate, a bell, or other method was not workable).

I am having trouble understanding how so many can be equating this solution with abuse? Is it ideal? No. But I also do not get the sense that anybody is locking their child away in stead of meeting their needs. I think that all of us, essentially, want the same thing - to be able to respond to our children if they need us, but to make sure that they are safe and sound the rest of the time. Some kids are wanderers/curiosity-seekers, some are not. Some can co-sleep, some cannot. We all have to evaluate our own circumstances and make choices in the best interests of our children. I do not see anybody suggesting that kids be locked away for convenience or so that the parent can sleep uninterrupted or whatever.

While I also understand the concerns about the potential delay or inability to get a kid out in the event of an emergency, one has to weigh the potential cost of day-to-day accidents against the remote possibility of an emergency.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sfcmama*
> ... can I add to that my sadness about *length of membership on mdc being used in argument*?!


Who said this? If you are referring to my reference to long time posters making mistakes, or how is stated that posting even a few times here might enlighten one to the UA and forum guidelines and general site mission statements, you are taking my comments out of context.

I agree that length of membership or post count means nothing in terms of validity of a point of view...but being here a long time can help one get a feel for the sort of community values MDC tries to promote (being as one has probably been referred to the UA and forum guidelines on more than one occassion in violation of it LOL) and more importantly have a firmer grasp of the way conversations and debates are held (i.e. we welcome all points of view on a topic -- within the guidelines of a UA and the forum -- and do not demand or imply that someone butt out if we don't like their point of view or accuse them of doing the same to us when they never did), the guidelines for discussing topics, and the myriad ways in which we learn from eachother and support one another. That does not mean one's membership bolsetrs the credence of their position, it means that one's experience might help guide another person towards a more productive discussion on this board.

Or...did I miss something?


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hakeber*
> 
> Exactly...age appropriate is the key, isn't it? Didn't you say up thread that you don't lock your child in his room? That you use gates to protect his safety and think that probably would be a better choice if one had the option? I still agree with you that that would be an age appropriate way to strike a balance between natural mistrust and building trust.
> 
> Cowbell.


Oh my...I said I was going to be done but I'm back . Only because you asked but I'm done then really! IF my son could get over our gate, I would have to figure something else out, and it is possible that could be locking. Luckily, he has some motor delays so while he has climbed out a low window before and unlocked the front door and gotten out while we were awake and he was being supervised, he has yet to climb over the gate, thankfully. And about the 5 seconds...well yes, that is a made up number but that is about how quickly I respond to my kid when he gets up. If he's crying I am fast, if he's not I will yell to him I'm coming and lay around for a minute. Point is, it isn't like OP is going to have to run across a football field to get there. And for me, I generally sleep super light, but there are times I can see myself, especially now that I'm pregnant and exhausted, sleeping through something serious if I didn't have a gate. My son is quiet when he's doing something he isn't supposed to and loud when he wants me. In fact, one day that the gate got left opened, I found him in the bathroom throwing towels into the tub with the water running...something he had been trying to do for days! Saw the opportunity and ran with it...


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## Boot (Jan 22, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hakeber*
> 
> How do you keep them from taking off the sleep sacks?


Well, my 15 month old doesn't try to take it off so I assume she is fine with it. She certainly protests loudly about things she doesn't like (bibs, hats, etc) and she can take those off herself. If she wanted to she could wriggle out of the sleepsack I'm sure. But it's not like a straight jacket. She can move freely and even walk in it. It just stops her from spreading her legs far apart like she would need to to get over the side of the crib. The sleep sack also keeps her warm and stops her from pulling her socks off and getting cold feet. In answer to the question upthread about finding them in toddler sizes, it's not an issue for me yet but I've seen them all over the place in larger sizes. Maybe it's just a Canadian thing.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

OT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Boot*
> 
> Well, my 15 month old doesn't try to take it off so I assume she is fine with it. She certainly protests loudly about things she doesn't like (bibs, hats, etc) and she can take those off herself. If she wanted to she could wriggle out of the sleepsack I'm sure. But it's not like a straight jacket. *She can move freely and even walk in it.* It just stops her from spreading her legs far apart like she would need to to get over the side of the crib. The sleep sack also keeps her warm and stops her from pulling her socks off and getting cold feet. In answer to the question upthread about finding them in toddler sizes, it's not an issue for me yet but I've seen them all over the place in larger sizes. Maybe it's just a Canadian thing.


I am picturing something like Sweetpea from Popeye right now...how cute is that?!


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## insidevoice (Feb 16, 2011)

I just have to add that my nearly 3 yo is currently very angry that I won't put the doorknob cover on his door. I just read him a book so he could take a nap and left the room and he's come out three times already to drag me to the room asking for the cover.

I'll go put it on after I type this, and he'll take a nap. When he wakes up he'll call out to me or knock on the door.

Maybe I just have strange kids who are obsessively attached to routine.

I can't imagine using a cover and leaving a kid on the other side if they were upset and trying to get out, for my kid, knowing that he can't get out feels safe. This is the same kid who happily chants, "Buckle! Buckle!" when we get in the car and asks for it to be tightened.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *insidevoice*
> 
> I just have to add that my nearly 3 yo is currently very angry that I won't put the doorknob cover on his door. I just read him a book so he could take a nap and left the room and he's come out three times already to drag me to the room asking for the cover.
> 
> ...


LOL...your kid reminds me of my lovely little students in Seoul who used to chant with glee when we had quizzes and tests and would moan in anguish and disappointment when I had forgotten to make the copies. AWWWWWWWWW teeeeeeacheeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrr, why can't we have a test today?!

He does realize that the cover only means he can't get out, not that others can't get in, right? That he's not actually any safer (unlike in a car seat) from anyone but himself?


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## 7thDaughter (Jan 8, 2006)

Originally Posted by *7thDaughter* 

First, the tone of so many postings here has been so hot -- angry, defensive, attacking, using "logic" to attack another person (which I view as a form of verbal abuse) that I could not bear to read them. This is not what I expect of women at MDC.

hakeber

2) You view *logic* as a form of verbal abuse? You think it abusive to ask someone to support their reasoning with clear coherent logic (as you have done)? Logic is how problems are solved, how we reach reasonable conclusions. It is how we discern between truth and fiction. I am sure you did not mean that the way it came across, can you explain?

Pardon me for not getting all the quotes in place correctly. Here is my response to hakeber's question.

I support rational approaches to disagreement. However I have seen too many instances (and to be honest, most of them were men using "logic" as a weapon against women) where people with very valid views were spoken down to, their views denigrated, their wisdom lost or ignored when decision-making time came, because the more forceful debater was able to use criticism and logical arguments to undercut the voice of the other, who deserved equal respect - and often had wider experiences to draw from, but could not easily or quickly form those experiences into sound bites for a debate. And when this happens, changing a discussion of various views into a "winning vs losing" argument, yes, it is verbal abuse. Esp within families where the better debater uses logic as a means to control everyone. The course based on logic is not necessarily the direction you would follow if you listened to the voice of experience and wisdom, and season it with kindness. We who practice AP and loving kindness should know this.

Now, I'm not sure I logically explained my point about logic, but this is my experience with human beings, who use logic to justify and reinforce their emotional decisions, and then deny what they just did. And yes, we all do this because we are all human.


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## insidevoice (Feb 16, 2011)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hakeber*
> 
> LOL...your kid reminds me of my lovely little students in Seoul who used to chant with glee when we had quizzes and tests and would moan in anguish and disappointment when I had forgotten to make the copies. AWWWWWWWWW teeeeeeacheeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrr, why can't we have a test today?!
> 
> He does realize that the cover only means he can't get out, not that others can't get in, right? That he's not actually any safer (unlike in a car seat) from anyone but himself?


I suspect he's very much going to be that sort of kid. After all, I was.  He's a kid who is very very rigid and likes to know what the rules are and likes everything to be just so. He has some significant verbal delays and many other quirks, but he lives for following rules and routines. He's a fun kid to parent.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *7thDaughter*
> 
> Pardon me for not getting all the quotes in place correctly. Here is my response to hakeber's question.
> 
> ...


So to clarify, do you feel that is what has happened HERE in this thread? Do you feel that there is a winning or losing side and that *I* am using logic to over look someone else's point of view? I haven't seen a winner or a loser or even a clear definitive SIDE in all of this yet. For there to be a debate, there must be a premise agreed upon and that is still up in the air, actually.

I have always felt that wisdom and experience contribute to logic and reasoning in important ways and that we cannot separate the two. They both work together to create a woven fabric of understanding. Of course in order to benefit from one another's wisdom and experience we must be bothered to stick around and share it, even when things get intellectually overhwleming, verbally uncomfortable, or frustrating. Don't you think?

Also, I hate to sound obtuse, but can you also explian that part in bold? I do not follow.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *insidevoice*
> 
> I suspect he's very much going to be that sort of kid. After all, I was.  He's a kid who is very very rigid and likes to know what the rules are and likes everything to be just so. He has some significant verbal delays and many other quirks, but he lives for following rules and routines. He's a fun kid to parent.


I might have missed this, and if I did please direct me to the post so as not repeat yourself, but why did you start using the covers in the first place?

ETA: I posted the too quickly. He sounds like a real cutie pie! I thrive on Chaos. I am not sure I would know how to meet the needs of a kid who needed that much structure. I'd do my best, but I am pretty sure I would fail them. Kudos to you Insidevoice.


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## hakeber (Aug 3, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *APToddlerMama*
> 
> Oh my...I said I was going to be done but I'm back . Only because you asked but I'm done then really! IF my son could get over our gate, I would have to figure something else out, and it is possible that could be locking. Luckily, he has some motor delays so while he has climbed out a low window before and unlocked the front door and gotten out while we were awake and he was being supervised, he has yet to climb over the gate, thankfully. And about the 5 seconds...well yes, that is a made up number but that is about how quickly I respond to my kid when he gets up. If he's crying I am fast, if he's not I will yell to him I'm coming and lay around for a minute. Point is, it isn't like OP is going to have to run across a football field to get there. And for me, I generally sleep super light, but there are times I can see myself, especially now that I'm pregnant and exhausted, sleeping through something serious if I didn't have a gate. My son is quiet when he's doing something he isn't supposed to and loud when he wants me. In fact, one day that the gate got left opened, I found him in the bathroom throwing towels into the tub with the water running...something he had been trying to do for days! Saw the opportunity and ran with it...


Mmmhmm, I have one of those. Mad Scientist by day (luckily) Rip van Winkle by night. At two he flushed a roll of toilet paper down the toilet, and a month or two later decided he knew how to swim just fine and dove head first off the bank into the muddiest river water you have ever seen (my suede boots never were the same again)...Last week, at the age of six mind you, he went to "brush his teeth" while I was marking exams, (sneaky bugger knew I'd be distracted) and a half hour later emmerge from the bathroom with a towel cape and "anti-gravity serum" heading to the balcony to test it. When I went to the bathroom I discovered he had employed almost an entire bottle of my 25$ body lotion, half a bottle of heads and shoulders and several drops of food coloring (god knows how he got that!). UGH!

This is why we use a sliding door instead of a gate to block off the living area (not for DS but for DD who shows similar tendencies to her brother). Of course DS is old enough now to be trusted not to do head dives off the furniture anymore, and watch TV peacefully and even make his own and his sister's breakfast, but we keep the balcony doors and gates padlocked with the keys in my bedside table...ya know, just in case Captain Daring decides to get adventurous. Oy!


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## ladybuggsmom (Jan 7, 2011)

I just wanted to say, for the record, that I'm bothered by many of the judgmental responses in this thread. NO ONE has cookie cutter children, and no answer is for everyone. This Mama was asking for advice based on what she stated she had ALREADY decided. And I thought that Mothering.com was a place of support, not judgment. Apparently I was wrong, and will re-think any posts I make in the future. Even IF one were to disagree, it can be done in a factual, non-judgmental way, or with no response, not in the way that many of you chose to do it.

To the OP, I'm personally sorry that you had to endure the backlash that you did...I hope that you find a solution that works best for your child and your family that keeps you all sleeping happily and safe.

I hope that the Mamas here that are thoughtful about the way they parent and raise their children but not about their responses to OP can show that same thoughtfulness in interacting here and in society as a whole in the future.


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## NaturalMama311 (Aug 4, 2008)

Wow I couldn't even read through most of the repsonses on this thread because of all the negativity and backlash. I too am bothered at how judgemental some people can be.

Since I couldn't bring myself to get through the many pages of responses to see if your question has been answered I'm just going to tell you briefly what we do with DD and it seems to work. When we put DD to bed we shut her door, which also has a door knob cover on the inside because she learned how to open her door to get out. She typically falls asleep within 15 minutes, sometimes longer, but she stays in her room and plays, reads or just talks/sings herself to sleep. We have a monitor on so if she were to need us she knows to call out for us and we'll be right there for her. Once we know she is asleep we go and open her bedroom door so if she needs to get out in the middle of the night for any reason she can freely do so. She is pretty good about coming into our bedroom if she needs something or when she wakes up in the morning. A few times she has gone downstairs but that rarely happened so we didn't feel a need to gate off any part of the house.

Hope that helps and I'm sorry you had to deal with all the judgemental responses to your question!


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## Boot (Jan 22, 2008)

Well, since the thread seems to have calmed down I want to share one of my friends stories from when her daughter was about two. She slept in her own room in a sleepsack with a gate up. I don't remember if she was in a crib or a bed at that point. One morning her parents were in bed and they saw bubbles floating past the window. They leapt up and discovered their daughter had scaled the gate, unlocked the balcony door and was standing on a chair on the balcony blowing bubbles (in her sleepsack). After that the door was locked. Some kids require extreme measures!


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## APToddlerMama (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Boot*
> 
> Well, since the thread seems to have calmed down I want to share one of my friends stories from when her daughter was about two. She slept in her own room in a sleepsack with a gate up. I don't remember if she was in a crib or a bed at that point. One morning her parents were in bed and they saw bubbles floating past the window. They leapt up and discovered their daughter had scaled the gate, unlocked the balcony door and was standing on a chair on the balcony blowing bubbles (in her sleepsack). After that the door was locked. Some kids require extreme measures!


LOL!! Wow! That is a great story and illustrates a point it seems many have forgotten.


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## expat-mama (May 28, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NaturalMama311*
> 
> Wow I couldn't even read through most of the repsonses on this thread because of all the negativity and backlash. I too am bothered at how judgemental some people can be.


Yes- this. Hugs and support to the OP.

I don't have this to worry about yet, but I see absolutely nothing wrong with "locking" your DD in her room at night while she sleeps. As long as she knows that you will come the second she needs you, I don't see the difference between this and a gate or any other safety barrier.

I am a passionate believer in all sorts of freedom and absence of limitations and authority in many, MANY instances but I believe that for small children to learn how to become responsible adults and for their own safety they very often need these kinds of limits and a strong authority to gently show them the way and keep them secure until they can do it themselves. Nothing wrong with that!


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## cyclamen (Jul 10, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *insidevoice*
> I can't imagine using a cover and leaving a kid on the other side if they were upset and trying to get out, for my kid, knowing that he can't get out feels safe. This is the same kid who happily chants, "Buckle! Buckle!" when we get in the car and asks for it to be tightened.


threadjack -
DD also does this. Put her in anything with a buckle and she will buckle herself in if she can, and ask me to do it if she can't. Totally routine oriented.


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## MommaBirdie (May 23, 2011)

We just turned the door knobs around so the lock was on the outside.
We started locking the kids in their room once they transitioned from the crib to a bed.
It didn't terrorize them or anything, it didn't even make them cry, it just made them knock on their door in the morning so I can let them out.
If it terrorized them, we would have sought out a different option.


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