# Husband scratched daughter on purpose... help me please... I don't know what to do



## Anonamom (Jul 25, 2014)

I've posted here on mothering before, but created this anonymous account due to the sensitivity of this issue.

I don't know what to do. I love my husband. We've been married for 8 years. We have a 4 and 5 year old and a 3rd child on the way. I'm a full time SAHM. 

My husband sometimes loses his temper. He's left bruise marks (from grabbing too hard, and one time from hitting) our son - who is now 5. This has happened three times in total. He always feels bad afterwards. While he still yells, he hasn't been physically abusive (to the point of leaving a mark) for about a year or so. 

Today, my 4 year old daughter came crying to me. She and my husband were playing piano, and evidently she scratched my husband. My husband responded by scratching her back!!! She had three scratch marks on her forearms, maybe 5 inches long or so. They were swelling up and bleeding. Not bleeding profusely, but bleeding. I cannot believe that he did this. I'm just heartbroken and in shock.

My husband seemed to feel bad. I made him leave the house for the day. I've been crying (trying to hide it in front of the kids) every sense. 

I don't know what to do. I told my husband that if he ever hurt our kids again, our marriage was over. This was about a year ago - which was the last time he left a mark on our son.

I don't know what to do. I know my husband has been feeling a lot of stress lately. Not only am I pregnant, but also dealing with a cancer diagnosis. I had to have surgery a few weeks ago for it. (I'll be fine in the long run, but there is more treatment head in my future - namely radiation after the baby is born.)

I don't know what to do. OK, I've typed that three times now.

He feels bad. The kids adore him. He is a good dad 95% of the time. The kids are so loving and forgiving even when he is a total aXXhole 5% of the time. I'm scared to leave and be a single mom of three kids and dealing with cancer. Our kids love him. My husband is usually so loving and gentle, but he has a temper that comes out sometimes. 

He's never physically hurt me... just the kids. ;(

God, I can't stop crying. I'm sorry if this doesn't make much sense. 

I don't know what to do. Am I over-reacting? Do I just need to chill out?

I'm afraid to tell my parents, or my church friends... I'm afraid of someone calling DHS and taking away the kids. I think he needs anger management help or something - but I'm afraid to make him get help because wouldn't the counselor be obligated to call DHS? I've heard so many horror stories about DHS... I feel so alone with this.

I love my kids so much. My heart is just broken. I don't understand how he could physically hurt them. I don't know if I can ever forgive him.... They are so precious and so innocent. I don't understand why he can't control himself better. 

Please... someone help give me some perspective.


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## newmamalizzy (Jul 23, 2010)

I am really, really sorry that you're going through this. I don't think you're over-reacting at all. The kind of hurt he's causing, even if it's occasional, goes beyond the norm of what people do when they really lose their temper with their kids. I wish I had wonderful advice for you, but I mostly just wanted to send my heart out to you for what is a really, really hard situation to be in. I would definitely suggest counseling for both of you. I think if it were me, I would insist that my husband move out for a while, as per your agreement a year ago. Is there any concern that he will get angry and hurt YOU if you demand that of him?


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

Have you looked into the resources available to cancer patients? My cancer treatment came with a ton of social support, so don't hesitate to reach to that potential resource. 

I agree with the poster above that you can make him go stay with his mom or something while you figure out next steps.


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## homeschoolingmama (Jun 15, 2007)

I don't agree that he should move out. While what he did was wrong, I don't think it would be beneficial for their parents to be separated. If he was like this often my opinion would change. I would probably sit down with him and problem solve together. He sounds like a good, involved dad who has poor impulse control when he is in the moment. I have to say that I have come close to hitting a child back when I have been hit. It is instinct or a natural reaction in the moment. For most, it passes and you can calm yourself. It seems like he sometimes has a hard time with that. I mean, once a year... I don't know. If my husband made a mistake like that and knew he was wrong and did it once a year I would suggest him talking to someone. In Canada, CAS would look positively on someone doing something to get help. That is a good thing. I am sure neither one of you want it to happen again so actively doing something to help him I think is a better option than having him move out.


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## KathrynH (Jan 1, 2012)

I am so sorry that you are in this situation, especially with all the other stressors that you are facing. 

With another child on the way & radiation in the future, the amount of stress in your lives will not decrease. He needs to seek help. From your own account this is a recurring pattern that seems to be aggravated by stress, and you know that pressures will be increasing. It is reasonable to think that the frequency/severity would also increase in such circumstances. If he is unwilling to get help, then he does not see his actions as problematic. They are. 

You are at a fork in the road. You can stay the course, or veer. It's up to you and your husband. 

Good luck to you. Take care of yourself and your babies.


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## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

I think at the very least he needs anger management and parenting classes. There isn't enough info in your OP for me to say whether I think the two of you need counselling as well but it's always worth considering.
All the best. I'm sorry things are so stressful at the moment.


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## Anonamom (Jul 25, 2014)

Thank you all so much for reading and responding. I can't tell you how much better I feel just having been "heard" because I feel so alone right now.

My husband is already snoring loudly in bed. It seems this doesn't concern him as much as it does me. I can't sleep because I am still feeling so upset and unsure about what to do. I didn't talk to him too much tonight because I didn't want to say the wrong thing before I really wrapped my head around things. He didn't seem to want to talk about anything either.

I am really struggling to deal with this. The three long scratches are still very red and prominent on DD's arm. She was complaining that they still hurt a bit as I was taking her to bed tonight. I can't believe how much I've cried... I can't possibly have any more tears in me. Our daughter is such a sweet and loving child - so forgiving, so eager to please. If anyone other than my husband did this, I'd call the police. I want so badly to protect her from anything in the world that could hurt her - she is so loving and precious... and here her own dad hurt her. This man she looks up to and trusts and loves. I'm just sick to my stomach about it.

Maybe the pregnancy hormones and the stress of my relatively recent diagnosis are also in play here in terms of how poorly I seem to be processing this incident. 

I love my husband and wanted to grow old with him... and the kids love him too. But my love for the children and my desire to protect them is powerful... and I worry that I'm being a bad mom by not removing them from his presence. 

Oh, and someone mentioned about it being a natural reaction on his part to scratch back. I think you are right because as I was reflecting on incidents with my son, one time I remember he left a bruise on him because he pitched him back after getting pinched. One time he hit him ... again, hitting him "back" was his reasoning. The grabs that left bruises were just in frustration of trying to control a difficult-to-control (at times) kid. He's a good boy, bright, loving and sweet - he didn't deserve any of that either. 

I am certain the kids would be devastated if we split. Like I said, my husband is a good dad 95% of the time. My preference would be to keep our family in tact. But, I worry that I'm not protecting my children as a mother should if I stay. I don't know which is worse for them... staying or going. And I don't want to let fears about my own health be a big deciding factor... but the reality is that I am going to need MORE (not less) help with the kids in the upcoming year. 

My husband is flawed, as all people are in one way or another. While he frequently yells at the kids, and responds a bit over-the-top (sometimes screaming over literal spilled milk, for instance), he is NOT frequently physically violent. These instances are rare. Physical acts that leave a mark on the kids - I could count those on one hand in all the five years we've been raising our kids together. He love the kids, he really does. Other people who see him with the kids think he's a great dad... and he more often than not IS a great dad. 

I never ever ever ever thought I'd be a woman making excuses for how my husband treated me or my kids. Before getting married, I always thought that if my husband laid a finger on me or my kids I'd leave him immediately. Now, faced with that reality, it doesn't seem so easy or black and white. 

I don't expect anyone to offer magical answers. But I cannot tell you all how much it meant to see your replies. Thank you.


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## newmamalizzy (Jul 23, 2010)

Just wanted to come back and clarify that I don't think it has to be all or nothing at this point as far as deciding to leave your husband forever. It does sound like he's an overall good guy with an issue controlling his impulses when he gets stressed. If his heart is behind it, he could probably work such a problem out with counseling. The reason I suggested following through with your agreement to separate is because I know how easily stuff like this can just be "forgotten" in the course of normal life, especially if it doesn't happen very frequently. After a few weeks with no incidents, you both might lose the feeling of urgency to solve this problem and get help - until the next time it happens. If you insist on a temporary separation it may force you to take steps to really find a solution, through counseling or anger management therapy or whatnot. 

BTW, I really don't think your reaction is over the top AT ALL. Your hormones are definitely not to blame. I agree that it is kind of instinctual to hit back/bite back/etc, but I think it's over-the-top to be leaving marks, and I can't really imagine leaving scratch marks like that without the act having gone a beyond that split-second reaction and into the realm of letting anger take over.


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## momOplenty (Apr 30, 2014)

you're not overreacting at all. it's totally normal to feel the pain of the situation. does he have a history of depression or anything? i'll tell you (and i should not admit this online, but i will), we've had a similar situation in our home, but reversed. i've been the bully to my own kids. so from understanding his side myself, and getting violent bursts of anger, even if infrequently, i get it. i actually bit a kid one time. he bit me so hard, i had to jab my fingers into his jaw to get him off of me. then i bit his little arm right back. i thought i'd scare him, but i left a bruise. and it's the worst thing to admit to, and i know people will think i didn't deserve kids. but i assure you, this is something that does NOT happen 99.99999% of the time here. be sad and upset, tell him so, and having him leave the house is a good idea, even if just a couple of hours to cool off. i've though about myself, and my anger, if i could escape for just a few minutes, i would never get mad. sometimes we do really dumb stuff. like, REALLY dumb. i'm not trying to make any excuses for him, i'm only saying, even the 'best' parents can snap. of course, if this were something frequent, my advice would be different. but if its something that has rarely happened, it will likely be ok. see if he can learn to walk away fast when he feels the anger start. some of us can do something so dumb in a split second, and not realize the damage. i'm so sorry though, there's nothing worse than seeing something like that happen to one of your kids.


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## Cherry_Blossom (Nov 7, 2009)

The best thing for him is to go get therapy. He has some mental programming from his own childhood that needs to be re-set. That's not something he can do on his own. A professional can give him a new script for thinking and reacting. In terms of 'child abuse' what he's done is pretty minimal. Social workers have seen the really bad stuff (cigarette burns, starvation, sexual abuse, etc.), so I don't think a scratch is going to be setting off their alarm bells too much. We've probably all been scratched by a fed-up cat worse than what your DD has right now. (Not to minimize that your DH shouldn't have done it.) But he should go to therapy to learn some better coping skills--like jumping up and leaving if he feels angry, instead of staying there and standing his ground which turns it into a pissing contest.


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## intentionalmama (Aug 23, 2008)

I guess the thing that kind of stands out for me - is that he is sleeping and you are the one awake. It doesn't seem to bother him as much as it does you. You have said it is not the first time, and I would guess, that unless he gets help and learns new ways of handling his frustration and anger it won't be the last. I think it would be good for him to do some counselling so that he can understand himself more and learn more positive ways of handling frustrating situations. No one is perfect, and one of the best things for children is seeing that we also makes mistakes, and how we strive to learn from them, and do better. I think him seeing a good counsellor would be a gift for himself, and his family.


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## neonalee (Nov 20, 2009)

I agree that leaving won't solve anything, & unless you've left a lot out, he sounds like a very involved & loving father who has some trouble with temper occasionally. He needs to work on that. 

My father had a terrible temper. He threw a printer at the wall because the paper kept getting jammed, & was occasionally violent with us. When I was, I think, in 8th grade he started taking tai Kwon do classes. It taught him to control himself. The change was amazing & I respect him highly for that. 

I have a temper like my father's of course. I learned how to control /work with it when I was in my 20s & spent a long time learning not to speak or act in anger. That served me well when I acquired a step daughter, but not as much with my own son. He pushes buttons I didn't know I had. I also suffer from depression & a lot of rage when I don't take my meds consistently. I fully understand that impulse to hit back, & the resulting guilt. That doesn't necessarily make someone a bad parent, just a flawed one. 

And finally, my husband has a worse temper than I do. He is like my father was, of course lol. When I was pregnant with my son I told him to get his sh** together & figure out how to not be such a jerk or I was leaving him. I did not want my children to grow up with what I did (my father was much worse than you've portrayed you husband). And he did. Is his temper still a problem? Yes. Has he occasionally hurt our son in anger? Yes. But he continues to work on it, ask & listen to advice, & go to therapy as needed. 

Talk to him. Come up with some strategies. Find someone not emotionally invested he can talk to & get specific coping ideas. Good luck.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

I don't think its going to be last time unless he gets serious about getting real help and making solid changes. Honestly, a 4 year old is a cake walk compared to a 12 year old. You husband has to learn to LEAVE the room when he knows he is about to loose it, or your DD could end up growing like me -- lying about where she got black eyes. 

I also agree that this isn't a deal breaker ( partly because he would still have visiting rights), but pretending everything is OK until it happens again is just setting your kids up to be daddy's punching bags. 

There are several things that your DH could do to address his problem. I like the martial arts idea a lot, and it might be more palatable to him than talk therapy. But he needs to do something instead of pretending that "feeling bad" is a plan of action to keep this from ever happening again.


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## Anonamom (Jul 25, 2014)

After the kids were tucked in bed tonight, we finally had our big talk. I asked him if he wanted to say or share anything. He said the kids purposefully push his buttons. He said he has to discipline them more than I do. He said she scratched him first. He said it was the last straw. He wanted her to see that it hurt to be scratched so she wouldn't do it. Etc. etc. It was really a lot of excuses. Then I asked him what he thought we should do about it. He said "nothing. Forget it and move on." That's when I burst into tears and pretty much sobbed my way through the rest of the conversation. 

I was hoping he'd express remorse, but instead it was just excuses. I was hoping he'd say he'd be willing to do anything to make it better and ensure it didn't happen again, but instead he wanted to just drop it and forget it. 

This all made me think that we just needed to separate. I reminded him of what I had said before - that if it happened again, I needed to leave and take the kids with me. He said that wasn't an option. (Not in a threatening way... but in a "there is no way that is happening" kind of way.) He was completely unemotional - and reflecting on it now, a bit condescending. 

A whole lot of talking (me crying... being way more emotional than I wanted to be for this conversation) he did agree to go to counseling. I don't think he believes he needs counseling. I think he is doing it because it was pretty much the only alternative to me leaving with the kids that I presented. We even went online and found a local counselor - a Christian counselor who seems to work both with anger management and parenting issues. Hopefully, he will be a good fit. 

I'm still not sure if I'm handling this right. I asked him how I can be sure that he won't act on angry impulse again. I told him there would be plenty more "last straw" moments... and that the stress levels were only going to go up as our third child arrives and my medical issues continue. He didn't really have a response - but to be fair I don't know what a good response to that concern would be.

He thinks it would be worse for the kids for him to be gone (like in a separation situation). I don't really want to be separated either... but I'm still feeling so confused and conflicted about what is happening. Everytime I see those scrapes on DD's arm, I just feel so sick to my stomach. We are seeing my parents tomorrow, and I worry that they will see the scrapes and ask DD what happened. I'm not coaching DD to say anything in particular about them... I don't want her to feel like she needs to lie, and I definitely don't want her to feel like she's done anything wrong. So, I guess we will need to deal with it if it comes up... but it makes me very nervous.

Anyway... that is my update. Here I am again, unable to sleep with my husband already asleep and snoring. I wish I felt like he cared more about this. I'd be so broken up with we switched places and I was the one that hurt our DD in such a way. I can't force him to care or expect him to respond the same way I do. I should just be grateful that he seems to be willing to go ahead with some counseling, and pray that it helps him. 

Thank you for the so many thoughtful replies. I hope I'd doing the right thing for our kids....


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

So I'm wondering what would happen if you told him, as factually and unemotional as possible, that this kind of behavior isn't acceptable, that he is an adult and has to be the one to learn how to control his emotional response when he feels like the kids are pushing his buttons. He is bigger, stronger, the one with all the power. It's ludicrous to try and put himself on equal footing with a 4 year old, and while he thought he might be teaching her a lesson, he drew blood and has the potential to hurt her a lot worse if he is angrier. And he wasn't teaching her how to be respectful. 

I say this as a person who got very angry and lost my temper with my kids a number of time, but I realized that me reacting so angrily, losing control of my temper just made me feel horrible, and I was giving away the authority of my power and losing control. Because when I act in the way my children act, I put us on a similar footing in their minds, and I'm just like a bully that they won't respect. What I've started doing is having serious discussions about things, because I really want to know what in the world my child is thinking when she does something so unbelievably egregious to me. And there is a loss of privilege.

I feel like if he can't at least consider your words and talk about loving guidance and respectful discipline, and he is being disrespectful to you, then that is a big problem. My husband is not physically violent, but he would yell a lot, and become very sarcastic, and I hear so much of his negativity echoed by my children when they are annoyed with me, and I call it out now. I was at a point where he was kind of depressed and being angry all the time and I felt like I had to kind of walk on eggshells before I realized we are both rational people and I should be able to talk to him. Although I was probably pissed when I finally did, but I remember telling I was sick of Mr. Angry Man coming home from work everyday, and I was starting to dislike him because of how mean and sarcastic he could be. And he felt bad and was able to admit that he did yell a lot, and then I listened to him explain why he was angry and what things were making it worse--he is really sensitive to noise, and had a lot of it at work. But I feel like things will just fester and fester until everything is rotten, and I'm sure your husband must be feeling a lot of emotional stress with your illness & pregnancy among other things.


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## Cherry_Blossom (Nov 7, 2009)

Now I think Linda on the Move is correct.


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## sillysapling (Mar 24, 2013)

This man needs therapy, that is a really disturbing outlook he has and not one I would expect from a healthy, well-adjusted adult. I would definitely suggest to him that he see a therapist to help him learn how to be more calm when the kids push his buttons (and to get to the root of his issues- your call on whether to mention that or not, though). You should look into it for yourself as well, if it's possible, you're going through a lot and having an impartial 3rd party to talk to might help you feel better.

Martial arts isn't an awful idea, as long as you get a good teacher. Apparently there are a lot more teachers who treat it like fight club, shouting verbal harassment at students for not doing well enough and ignoring the discipline aspects. That really wouldn't help your husband's anger issues, it may even make things worse as it teaches him how to properly attack someone. My partner and BIL did Tae Kwon Doe with a bad teacher who didn't talk at all about discipline and BIL used it to be an even more effective bully- not the desired outcome.

It would be good for your children to take as well (again, with a _good_ teacher). It can help them learn self-confidence and discipline as well, it may help them realize that they shouldn't punch/scratch/etc others, and it might even be a good bonding time for your husband and the kids. And if your husband doesn't get better- they'll have tools to defend themselves against him as they get older.


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## pumabearclan (Nov 14, 2012)

Anonamom, I'm sorry to say this but I would leave the marriage. Your husband doesn't understand how to be a parent and has violent urges. His idea of parenting is to "give as good as he got." We don't even want to see this in our preschoolers let alone in their parents. He is obviously not on the same page as you regarding parenting (and the rest of world, because you are right that he is abusing your children by any legal standard) and this will not go away; these sorts of problems do not diminish without years of therapy and a lot of personal hard work, and there is no reason for your children to live in fear and for you to live in heartache. In the best scenario you will all learn to live "around" daddy and not "push his buttons," which is codependency. Codependency leads to low self-esteem, substance abuse, and serial abusive relationships. In the worst case your children will be devastated not only by his reactive temper but his BLAMING and SHAMING of them after he hurts them! As hard as it is to accept, please see this man for who he is and not for who you want him to be.


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## Katherine73 (Apr 30, 2012)

You mentioned that you would be seeing a Christian counselor so I'm assuming that you guys are Christians and perhaps churchgoing? In which case I'm wondering if your church would be of any help to you and your husband? Some churches deal really well with this kind of thing and hold their members to standards and accountability. And then there are some churches who believe that the man is the head of the household and has the right to do whatever he wants to do with his family. Of course you are the only one who knows if going to your church leadership would be a good idea. Of course I am suggesting you do this in addition to counseling and whatever else you think would be helpful. I completely understand how you are not wanting to pick your children up and leave, however abuse usually escalates. I think the counseling is a great step 1. But just because he has agreed to go to counseling does not mean that you have solved the problem. You will have to constantly be on your guard and evaluating the situation. The benefits of staying might outweigh the problems right now, but next week or next month that could all change. I'm so sorry you are dealing with this.


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## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

Anonamom said:


> He said the kids purposefully push his buttons. He said he has to discipline them more than I do. He said she scratched him first. He said it was the last straw. He wanted her to see that it hurt to be scratched so she wouldn't do it. Etc. etc. It was really a lot of excuses. Then I asked him what he thought we should do about it. He said "nothing. Forget it and move on."


I'm late to this thread but this alarms me more than anything else. Even days later, past the heat of the moment, he is blaming his children for his behavior. A grown man, an adult, blaming a four and five year old. "The kids purposely press my buttons," "She scratched me first," those are the words of an abuser. Maybe his behavior hasn't harmed the children very much, but he is still talking like an abuser. Even if the physical abuse doesn't escalate beyond what you are already seeing, the pattern of blaming others for his egregious behavior will affect you and the children in many, many ways.

Maybe counseling will help, maybe martial arts will help, but since he has hurt his child and doesn't seem to care, I have my doubts. Every parent has poor parenting moments, spanks in anger, loses their temper, something, but most have remorse, take responsibility for it, and take steps to change.

Since you and the kids aren't in immediate physical danger you have some time to figure out your options. I recently left someone who was like that, occasionally lashed out physically and couldn't/wouldn't/didn't take responsibility. It took me years to decide to leave, and I didn't have the stress of pregnancy while figuring it out. Maybe you can find a way to stay, if that's what you want, but do so with open eyes; unless your H can show some sense of responsibility, this will not get better. It might stay the same, but more likely it will get worse.

Hugs, mama, it is a really, really difficult place to be. Your children are so lucky to have you, you are a wonderful mother!


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## neonalee (Nov 20, 2009)

Wild Lupine said:


> I'm late to this thread but this alarms me more than anything else. Even days later, past the heat of the moment, he is blaming his children for his behavior. A grown man, an adult, blaming a four and five year old. "The kids purposely press my buttons," "She scratched me first," those are the words of an abuser. Maybe his behavior hasn't harmed the children very much, but he is still talking like an abuser. Even if the physical abuse doesn't escalate beyond what you are already seeing, the pattern of blaming others for his egregious behavior will affect you and the children in many, many ways.
> 
> Maybe counseling will help, maybe martial arts will help, but since he has hurt his child and doesn't seem to care, I have my doubts. Every parent has poor parenting moments, spanks in anger, loses their temper, something, but most have remorse, take responsibility for it, and take steps to change.
> 
> ...


Upon re reading, this will sound like I'm disagreeing with you more than I mean to, but my brain isn't coming up with a better way to word it, sorry.

And if his reaction is out of shame, or not knowing how else to react, or not having the tools to cope? My husband had become a much better man since we got together, he says so & I agree. But we've been together 8 years & working on his patenting skills at least 5. But yes he has to be willing to at least listen to start.

If your husband is mostly a good man, see if counseling helps. If it doesn't, then time to reevaluate. But give it a good chance first.

I'm also wondering, does he become uncomfortable & have a hard time really listening when you get emotional? We've gotten around that by me writing letters to him. I write everything I want to say, reread it, maybe change wording, add /delete stuff, then rewrite it nearly. He reads later, then we discuss.

I wasn't aware that some places skipped the discipline of martial arts. That's really sad & thanks for the heads up. If there is a good local place it would be a good family activity for all the reasons mentioned.


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## pumabearclan (Nov 14, 2012)

neonalee said:


> And if his reaction is out of shame, or not knowing how else to react, or not having the tools to cope?


I do agree with this... And I agree that anyone can change with effort.

My feeling is that anyone who abuses doesn't have the tools to cope, but that doesn't mean that victims should take abuse or allow others to be victimized out of sympathy for the developmental deficiencies of the abuser: that's codependency. It's a fine line between supporting/understanding and enabling.

The point that WildLupine raised, which is a critically important one, I think, is that the OP's husband doesn't see anything wrong with his behavior and isn't concerned with the effect he is having on others even when it's brought to his attention. So any "supporting/understanding" that the OP would give is actually just codependent enabling since you can't support something (improvement) that isn't happening.

It comes up here on MDC from time to time that although an abuser is a wonderful person 95% of the time should we just accept the 5% of abuse? Or if the abuse isn't physical, is it "not as bad?"

In general, if a person abuses it indicates that they have personality problems that color their entire lives: how they see others in relation to themselves, what is their self-image, what is their sense of personal responsibility. A lot of abusers are not actively abusing because things are going their way most of the time. The ultimate abuser would never have to abuse because they would have achieved complete control over their presentation to others, their environment, and the responses they receive from others. Everyone in their relationships would be objectified codependents. Obviously, life rarely fails to challenge an abuser and when it does, the response is abuse. So being in a relationship with an abusive person requires victimization, either through codependency to avoid being harmed or being harmed.

I agree that the husband should go to counseling. I also think the OP should probably try some counseling too because she's in a very difficult situation. But I don't think that the OP should continue to prod and plead with her husband about his unacceptable (and illegal) battery of his children and accompany him to counseling. If he wants to change, *he* will have to do it. The more deeply she gets involved with his personality defect the worse for her and the less likely that he will be able to recognize his behavior as originating with him and not resulting from other people's behavior (children, wife, boss, stranger in traffic, store clerk, etc.)


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## Anonamom (Jul 25, 2014)

The thoughtfulness and wisdom in posts here at MDC always impress me. I'm glad I came here to get advice and different views. Thank you all so much.

I wish this was neater and tidier. When I imagined scenarios like this before getting married, or seeing them portrayed on tv/movies, the correct course of action seems so black and white, so obvious. But being in this situation, it's all just grey and confusing. Even with the good advice being given, I still feel so lost. 

Yesterday my husband told me that he contacted the counselor (via online form, which is one one to set up a first appointment). He did that on his own, without my prompting/asking/reminding. So I thanked him for it, and was glad to hear it.

We visited my parents yesterday. My parents both separately asked my daughter what happened to her arm. When my mom asked, my daughter said (very quickly) "i scratched my dad so my dad scratched me back" and then quickly moved on to the next subject. She said it so quickly, my mom obviously couldn't quite understand her. She looked at me and said "did the cats scratch her?" I said "no" and it was left at that as DD was pulling grandma away to come to a "tea party" she had set up. Later my dad saw her arm and asked what happened he said "it looks like your arm went into a meat grinder!"  But DD is a rough-and-tumble kid, often has bruises on her shins from playing outside or playing with her brother. My dad isn't a good listener and is easily distracted and seemed to assume that it was just some mystery scrapes that she got from playing.

I didn't know what to do. I didn't want to offer up the details of what happened because if there is any hope for our family to stay intact then my parents knowing that my husband hurt their granddaugther would be the end of that. Honestly, I thought there was about a 50% chance that my husband would end up with a broken nose yesterday... my DD is so cherished and adored by my parents. If my dad knew, he would likely deck my husband. And with my dad's personality, my husband would not ever be forgiven. That kind of a scenario seems like it would be so damaging to the kids. It seemed better to not say anything.

But I also didn't tell DD to lie. I didn't dress her in a way that covered her marks (too hot for long sleeves anyway). I prayed that God would guide the day and whatever He wanted to be revealed would be revealed.

My daughter is at camp right now. She still has those marks on her arm (they were fairly deep scratches... right now it it looks like her arm slid in gravel or something - they are no longer 3 well defined lines but rather a cluster of small scabs, maybe 3 inches long at the longest point). Part of me is fearful that when I pick her up, they will ask me about the marks and I won't know what I should say. To be completely honest, I think a small part of me almost hopes someone asks. I'm really ashamed to say that. But it might show my husband how serious it is if someone outside of me is concerned. I think he thinks i'm just over-reacting. 

I have taken pictures of my daughters arm... just in case I should ever need it. In case, I guess, it gets to the point where we need to separate and I need to prove that my husband should not have custody. There were two other instances where I have pictures of my son as well (a grab-mark bruise on his arm in on instance, and a small bruise from a hit or pinch - can't remember now which - to his torso in another instance). I had previously had a couple of other pictures and brief descriptions of "incidents" but I deleted them - I guess in a moment of optimism. 

I am very hopeful that this counselor can help. I feel like I still haven't decided exactly what I am doing, or what I am supposed to do. I might talk to a woman at my church who is in my bible study and see what insights she might offer. But I am still very very very apprehensive about discussing any of this with anyone in real life (that is, face-to-face).


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## pumabearclan (Nov 14, 2012)

I am so happy to hear that you are being honest with yourself about this. 

The degree of the injury your husband inflicted concerns me even more, unfortunately. 

Your daughter is showing some codependency and shame. She wants to protect her dad and probably feels this was her fault. She even said so. I would talk with her about this. You could ask your husband to join you and make his apology with the explanation that her injury was not her fault, that everyone has to be responsible for their own behavior, no matter what. I wouldn't allow her to take responsibility for this in any way. Unfortunately, when your husband scratched her, the opportunity for her to know that scratching is wrong was lost in the trauma and shame that he inflicted. Now that is the only issue that exists for her. 

I'm glad to know that your husband set up the counseling appointment on his own. Apparently this latest incident did sink in and he seems to be taking things more seriously. I hope this is last incident that happens to get this issue taken care of. In the meantime, if you choose to stay, watch out for your children. If your husband makes progress you will all learn to trust him again and that is a beautiful thing. You have a loving heart and are a good mother. 

I personally wouldn't talk face-to-face with anyone unless I had already made up my mind or unless things were dangerous on a daily basis and you are in crisis. Give yourself some time; maybe participate in some forums for people who have recovered from or who were involved in abusive relationships. Also spend time alone, and pray. Anything can happen. 

Keep checking in as you need! So glad this forum helped you, I agree that you got a lot of very thoughtful responses. Participation here is excellent, I have always felt this as well. 

Hugs
Puma


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

OP i am so sorry you are going through this. with everything else it can be so heart breaking.

the thing is - i dont see this as big a problem as you feel. 

you are christians and he seems to believe in the eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth. he also does not believe in gentle discipline.

everytime he hurt his kids he did it to teach them a lesson. he didnt initiate it. if you hit me i hit back. 3 times in 5 years. with kids a year apart. yes it can be hard. 

and so he does not really feel remorse because he thinks he is doing the right thing. 

i think this philosophy is very common among many non gentle discipline family. i see this on public transportation all the time. toddler hits parent, parent hits them back. not enough to scratch and bruise but definitely hit. (and no you cant protest. other passengers feel the parent is right).

i dont see it really as an anger issue. i see it as a discipline philosophy issue. he feels you are too lax, so he has to pick up the slack. he needs parental guidance - coming from a 3rd party - not necessarily you.

i would check on the counsellor and see what their philosophy is. 

it is a good thing your dh has agreed to counselling. i just hope he gets the proper guidance. 

was he spanked as a kid? 

the dangerous part in all this is - how seriously he does this. its isnt just a little scratch in retaliation. its a 'meat grinder' scratch. its a bruising. his counselor needs to hear when dh did. will dh tell them that? 

i think your dh holds it together pretty well. just once in a blue moon he really lets it rip. someone with a real anger issue would be doing much worse. 

i would handle this more as - coming from your kids point of view. from gentle discipline point of view instead of anger issue. 

i agree its not a reason to leave now. i would also make sure in the following months you use all the resources available to you. to get meals cooked, house cleaning, help with babysitting. take every opportunity you get instead of feeling bad to accept it. your children's behaviour triggers your dh. you want to eliminate as much of the trigger as possible.

if you could i would seek some counselling for yourself too. you have a LOT on your plate. its nice to talk to someone sometimes.


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## pumabearclan (Nov 14, 2012)

Meemee, hitting children that leaves marks is illegal. It's child abuse. 

The father did not use non-gentle-discipline, which would include using a loud voice, spanking on the bottom, or frog-marching the child to a time-out. Breaking the skin and bruising by pinching, punching, and scratching is abuse that indicates a person who is out of control. It teaches nothing. It frightens and subdues non-compliant persons so that the abuser does not feel threatened any more. 

The statistics for child abuse are close to one in four, so it's not surprising that people are seen abusing their children. 

"An eye for an eye" is not love. 

My understanding of Christianity is that Christ's love and compassion upended the eye-for-an-eye paradigm. About 2,000 years ago. "Turn the other cheek," "Love thy neighbor" etc. 

Eliminating the triggers so that an abuser doesn't abuse is called "codependency" - assuming responsibility for someone else's punishing behavior. It is about as wrong as a relationship can be, especially between parents and children, as it denies respect, trust, love, natural expression, self-esteem, security, etc etc etc. What you are encouraging is for the whole family to become perfect codependents so that the abuser doesn't abuse any more. 

Abuse: "accepting it" instead of "feeling bad about it" is just - wow - too far out there for me to fathom, to be honest, and I'll wager it is for the OP as well who clearly finds this unacceptable & realizes that there will be *legal trouble* if this goes public. Cleaning the house & cooking meals so that abuse doesn't occur... Wow. I just can't fathom this.


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## head4thehills (Feb 19, 2014)

My feeling is, an eye for an eye leaves both people blind. I don't mean to offend with that statement, it is just my opinion. I feel it's why physical "discipline", or abuse, carries over from one generation to the next. It is a form of blindness, in my opinion.
OP, I really feel for you. I know that if I were in your shoes I would be feeling EXACTLY the same as you. Every word you wrote makes sense to me. That gray, confusing state, where what should be clear is actually fuzzy, I've been there myself. I think there is no clear, easy answer.
Since there have been so many excellent posts here, I'm only going to add one little thing. Please make sure you have supportive people around you. Family, friends, counselors, fellow church members, even if they don't know about this facet of your family life, they are indispensable for your own mental health. You will need people available to you who will support you. Isolation is a terrible feeling.
You mentioned that your husband contacted your counselor. Any idea what was said?
I'm so glad for these forums, helping mothers in need feel just a little less alone!


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## sillysapling (Mar 24, 2013)

pumabearclan said:


> The degree of the injury your husband inflicted concerns me even more, unfortunately.


This. "Drew blood" is bad enough, but can mean a fairly shallow, small scrape. The dad may not have even have meant to do it, I've scratched myself by accident enough to draw a little blood and kiddo has scratched enough to draw blood without even meaning to scratch. I've never seen a human-induced scratch that bad, that doesn't sound like a quick swipe, where the person may not realize how much damage they're doing, it sounds like a purposeful, slow, nails-digging-in scratch. That is far more horrifying than quickly lashing out, which was bad enough.

I _really_ disagree with the PP who said this was a discipline difference issue. Even people who use spanking wouldn't go that far unless they're completely abusive. There certainly are Christians (people of all religions and atheists) who use their beliefs to justify abuse- but that doesn't make it any less abusive, and most people of _any_ belief would be horrified.


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

Have you considered your parents as a resource? Could you talk to a counselor about how to explain events to them and ask them to stay calm?

The thing is, though, you're not going to convince them to stay calm and do nothing. They might be great, though, at staying calm and helping you out. 

I went through cancer treatment a few years ago, and every doctor on the planet seemed totally sure that I could handle everything. Some people work right through treatment! What they don't say is how much that sucks. I was exhausted, ill, and miserable. So it's really likely that your parents are going to be at your house a lot, or your kids are going to be with your parents a lot, and information is going to pass freely between your households. The closets will not stay closed, and any skeletons in them will wind up all over the floor.

The best I can say of your husband's behavior is that he appears to forget that he is the grownup. When a child scratches you, you don't scratch back, because you are an adult, and you have the sense and patience to explain right and wrong. When you begin to lose that sense and patience, you call for reinforcements. If you can't do that, you consider, after the fact, what you can do to avoid the same stress in the future. Asking a child to not provoke you is not a realistic option. Asking a child who is freaked out by a new sibling and a parent with a serious illness to not provoke you is even less realistic.

So, one thing to do is to sit down with your husband and lay it out. Your parents are going to find out about this, and the best way to manage their reactions is to sit them down and tell them about it. When you do that, you can also tell them what you plan to do about this problem, and how they can best help you. If your husband is not willing to do this with you, you will need to make a plan to have this conversation without him, and possibly to consider removing him from day to day contact with the kids as a more important part of the solution.

My cancer treatment came with a ton of social workers. You can ask to talk to one before you talk to your parents, but it should be this week.


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## littlec (Sep 15, 2009)

katelove said:


> I think at the very least he needs anger management and parenting classes. There isn't enough info in your OP for me to say whether I think the two of you need counselling as well but it's always worth considering.
> All the best. I'm sorry things are so stressful at the moment.


I agree completely. I am so sorry you are dealing with this. I have no idea if this incident would be a mandated report kind of thing, but if you are worried, he could talk in general terms, not specifics. I'm in no way condoning this, but it sounds like something you want to work through, and I don't think child services getting involved will do any good at this point.

If he doesn't want to get help from a counselor (because he is incapable of helping himself on his own, that is clear), you are going to have to decide what is worse for you and your kids- you being a single mom, or you guys living with someone who has serious anger issues and lacks self control.

I believe you that he is a good guy 95% of the time, but women and children get killed by the 5%. Sure, that is extreme, but drawing blood on your child is pretty extreme too. I wish you the best with this situation. Truly.


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## Linda on the move (Jun 15, 2005)

littlec said:


> . I am so sorry you are dealing with this. I have no idea if this incident would be a mandated report kind of thing, but if you are worried, he could talk in general terms, not specifics.


It is my understanding that reporting mandates fall into 2 categories:


Reporting if a child is in danger, which requires judgement on the part of the reporter as to whether or not a behavior is likely to reoccur. In this case, a teacher, health care worker, etc. is more likely to report based on what the injuries look like and not knowing what else is going on than a mental heath professional talking to dad, and seeing that dad is interested in making real changes.
 Doctor/patient confidentiality. If dad talks to a mental health professional, those conversations are privileged, unless dad seems to be a threat to himself or others, in which case that danger has to be reported.
In other words, I don't think that dad working on making changes is going to result in this being reported, however, I think this could be reported by others,

The extent of the injuries you describe do sound to me like they are reportable to CPS by a mandated reported. Rather than worrying about being reported for getting help, I think you should have your eyes wide open that if you guys do nothing and this continues, you could easily have CPS in your lives. This is physical abuse. The way you describe the injuries, the school I work at would report. (not trying to alarm you or be sh*ty, I just think you should have your eyes wide open while deciding how to proceed).


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## Julianito (Mar 14, 2006)

Julianito said:


> I would encourage you to talk to someone on your own about this, and to go with your husband and be clear on how bad it is to that counselor. Right now, you are still there to protect them. If you leave, you risk your children being alone with him for days without your protection. Take your time. You will need very strong clear evidence (the photo- not enough) to not share custody. You also need to show you are being proactive (which you are, but document it) and not condoning what he is doing.
> 
> :frown:The worst part of leaving someone physically aggressive ---when your kiddo is then alone in their care after the divorce.


Trying to avoid DCF is not your job, you need to protect your child here, not your husband. Having DCF work with your husband could support you now in staying, and later if you decide to leave.

Just be honest about what happened and how hurt and horrified you have been that it did. The consequences are his to take, and given how lightly he is taking your concern, some outside perspective might be helpful.

FYI - DCF won't take the kiddos from the home in a case like this. The level of abuse is not to the level they do that at (with severe physical and sexual abuse)


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

_The worst part of leaving someone physically aggressive ---when your kiddo is then alone in their care after the divorce._

This is VERY good advice OP. something to keep in mind as you think about your own steps. unless you can use these recorded incidents as reason for him not having overnights with his kids and have supervised visits. which sucks either way because they will miss their dad. sometimes leaving is not the answer. there are many stories of that in the single forum. dont take divorce lightly. esp. if you live in CT. if you even doubt your dh might be aggravated by divorce proceedings and he really isnt serious about his couseling then i'd be careful about divorce. he should never have custody of his children. never.

what your dh has done is bad. no doubt about that. if your children went to dc and your dd said her dad did that CPS would be on your tail.

but your dh is not that bad a man. he has never hurt you and he has slipped 3 times. there is a positive in that. hopefully counseling might work and he can see the error of his ways.

even though your parents may not say something directly to you... i am sure they know. they might be a resource to help you decide about your future plan.


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## pumabearclan (Nov 14, 2012)

I really do understand the rationale of wanting to stay with an abusive person in order to maintain (perceived) control over the situation. It makes sense. But this is based on a paradigm that is inaccurate: the codependent has control over the abuser by complying. The only thing the codependent has control over is themselves and the level of their complicity. The codependent mother doesn't have control over whether the children are going to "push his buttons" while she's asleep & he goes in to check on a crying child, or when she's taking the garbage out, or taking a shower, or when there are other children visiting for a playdate. There just isn't a "perfect" codependency, especially with children, who don't understand what is going on and don't have impulse control. So this idea just doesn't work, even if was a reasonable option.

The reality of codependency is that unless the abuser reforms, there will be ongoing abuse. In truth, every person who lives in a state of mistrust and fear of punishment is being psychologically and emotionally abused anyway, even if the physical abuse is "under control." 

The damage of codependency cannot be overstated. Staying with an abuser under the fallacy that by doing so the codependent spouse can control the actions of the abuser provides a critically damaging family dynamic with 2 unhealthy parents and unhealthy children. Codependency usually starts in childhood within the family and is repeated throughout life until the codependent gets help. So "protecting" the children is only conditioning them to engage in abusive relationships among their peers and as adults. If dad doesn't break a bone today, maybe their boyfriend of husband will in the future. Self-injury through addictions such as promiscuity and drugs are rampant among codependents do to their frustrated warped emotional condition and crushed self-esteem. 

What is better, being abused in some fashion 24 hours a day (including physical injury, in this case) with nowhere to turn or having one safe home and one healthy parent and some protective legal oversight? 

In this particular situation, I agree with many posts that the OP has some time & space to see how the counseling goes & figure out what she wants to do. But as I said, her daughter is already codependent to the father by showing shame and protecting his actions. If this seems like she learned a "lesson," then I would ask how she can process the illogic of the fact that no one scratched her dad for him scratching her? 

The OP's awareness that her father would physically hit and never forgive makes me wonder how long these patterns will persist in her family. She is very brave to take this seriously and I hope that this pattern of behavior can end here and now for all concerned.


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## neonalee (Nov 20, 2009)

This has come far & I don't have time to read every response right now. But, I'm sorry I came across as an advocate for Co dependency. Pumabearclan's response to my last post was exactly what I meant to say. I like how meepycat says "he appears to forget that he is the grownup". That is exactly what happens with my DH (and his ex wife honestly). It's a very apt description.


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## alpenglow (Oct 29, 2007)

While I completely agree with Pumabearclan about the dangers of growing up learning co-dependency, I think the reality of the family court system makes this still a very real risk when the children end up in shared custody with a parent with power and control issues. There is no simple answer unfortunately, but certainly confronting dh and opening this up to involving other people will reveal his true colours very quickly. So sorry you have to deal with this mama.


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## tadamsmar (Mar 26, 2014)

Anonamom said:


> I was hoping he'd express remorse, but instead it was just excuses. I was hoping he'd say he'd be willing to do anything to make it better and ensure it didn't happen again, but instead he wanted to just drop it and forget it.
> 
> This all made me think that we just needed to separate. I reminded him of what I had said before - that if it happened again, I needed to leave and take the kids with me. He said that wasn't an option. (Not in a threatening way... but in a "there is no way that is happening" kind of way.) He was completely unemotional - and reflecting on it now, a bit condescending.
> 
> A whole lot of talking (me crying... being way more emotional than I wanted to be for this conversation) he did agree to go to counseling. I don't think he believes he needs counseling. I think he is doing it because it was pretty much the only alternative to me leaving with the kids that I presented. We even went online and found a local counselor - a Christian counselor who seems to work both with anger management and parenting issues. Hopefully, he will be a good fit.


Hopefully he is partly being defensive and and hiding his emotional reaction to what he did, but I can't be sure. Perhaps in counseling he will open up more about his feelings.

It's good that he you will be getting counseling. Hopefully, you can build on that. Try to keep him in a mode where he is open to counseling even if this first counselor is not a good fit.

I don't think you pick up and leave now because the abuse is not that severe so far. Also, it's important to know what kind of custody arrangement you might get. It could be worse for the kids to be with him alone. I think you need to plan for the possibility of leaving I think it would be better to talk to a lawyer or someone who helps abused families so you will know how to accomplish your goal of protecting your kids if you decide to leave.

This may describe the dynamic that is a factor in his behavior:

http://www.pendletonpsych.com/doc/parent-child-coercive-cycle.pdf

You might show him this, but I don't think online help is a substitute for counseling in this case. In his case things escalate to physical abuse quickly so this is not just a matter of improving parenting skills.


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## sillysapling (Mar 24, 2013)

alpenglow said:


> While I completely agree with Pumabearclan about the dangers of growing up learning co-dependency, I think the reality of the family court system makes this still a very real risk when the children end up in shared custody with a parent with power and control issues. There is no simple answer unfortunately, but certainly confronting dh and opening this up to involving other people will reveal his true colours very quickly. So sorry you have to deal with this mama.


I agree with this completely.

Keep recording the abuse. Keep pictures, keep dates, keep back-ups. If it starts getting severe enough, you'll have a long record of history and that should be enough to prove he should only get supervised visitation.


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## Anonamom (Jul 25, 2014)

Hi, everyone -
Thanks so much for the continued advice and feedback here - I've read all these posts several times. I wanted to post an update.

As I type, my husband is in his third counseling session. The first one, he went alone. For the second one, the counselor wanted to talk to me (alone) and then both of us together. Today he went alone again.

My husband clearly doesn't think he needs any counseling and that this is a total waste of time and (more importantly) money. He sees it as punitive. He clearly sees himself as somewhat of victim here - a victim of my overreaction I guess, and he also sees himself as heroically doing something that is a total waste of resources just to save our marriage. My expectations for what he might get out of counseling, given this attitude, is pretty low. But I am grateful that he is stepping waaaaaay outside of his comfort zone to even go to these sessions. 

I guess one of the very first things my husband asked the counselor was how many times he'd need to go. When the counselor met me, at the second session, he wanted to hear my side of the "incident"... he also wanted me to share any insights I could about my husband. He (the counselor) said he is usually a really good read of people, but he just couldn't get a read on my husband at all. My husband does come across as very unemotional at times, and I have often had to tell friends or family that "no, he isn't mad" because people often see his sullen demeanor as him being angry or upset about something. 

Anyway, the counselor also wanted to know how I would respond if my husband said he just wasn't going to do counseling anymore. I said I'd encourage him to keep going, but I knew I couldn't force him... and honestly, if he is determined to not get anything out of it, then he won't get anything out of it. 

The counselor also told me that if CPS was involved, based one what he heard about the incident, that he would certainly require at least 15 sessions or perhaps 20. He said that just as an example... that something like this isn't a quick fix.

After weeks of not talking about it... Just yesterday, my daughter showed me the scars on her arm (yeah, she still has scars...) and asked if I was still mad at Daddy about it. :crying: I told her that is was wrong that it happened and it made me sad, and it wasn't her fault at all. I said that I forgave Daddy because that's what Jesus teaches us to do... I wanted to say more - but my husband was right there. I didn't know what to say in that moment, really. Maybe I chose the wrong words. I just wanted to sweep her up and hug her and protect her forever. She forgave her dad moments after he did it. She seemed more upset that I was upset with him than anything else. This is just the reality of a 4-year-old's perspective. She adores her dad. Both our kids do. 

Anyway... that is where things are at right now. My husband has actually been controlling his temper better lately. Not as much yelling and over-reactions as before. 

Our son (third child) is going to be born sometime in then next three weeks. I'm so excited about this, as I already love this little sweetpea so much... but to be honest I am also nervous. I just pray that my husband is ready for the extra stress, even though I'll be the primary caregiver. 

Thank you all again for caring and for sharing your thoughts and advice.


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## littlec (Sep 15, 2009)

Anonamom said:


> Hi, everyone -
> Thanks so much for the continued advice and feedback here - I've read all these posts several times. I wanted to post an update.
> 
> As I type, my husband is in his third counseling session. The first one, he went alone. For the second one, the counselor wanted to talk to me (alone) and then both of us together. Today he went alone again.
> ...


I've thought about you and kept you guys in my prayers. I'm glad he is going, even reluctantly. I hope and pray the counselor can get through to him. Congrats on your newest little. In my experience, the third doesn't bring nearly the amount of stress as the second!


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## neonalee (Nov 20, 2009)

Thanks for the update! If he's at least going there is hope the counselor will break through!


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## pumabearclan (Nov 14, 2012)

Anonamom said:


> She seemed more upset that I was upset with him than anything else. This is just the reality of a 4-year-old's perspective. She adores her dad. Both our kids do.


This is reality of a codependent's perspective, not a child's perspective. Children and people of other ages generally don't adore people who hurt them and work to protect them from punishment.

Emotionally healthy people who are victimized are generally wary of and mistrustful of the people who hurt them. They may be willing to forgive and trust again if the violent person showed remorse.

You seem to have a very good grasp of what is happening here. You've heard from the counselor about it.

In this family dynamic as you describe it there is only one outcome possible and that is that you forget the incident, the children's adoration continues, and the father is freed from responsibility. What works for him, in other words. I'm not sure why anyone would downplay the seriousness of a family dynamic where one parent is an abuser who shows no remorse and is denying responsibility by blaming wife (making him go to counseling and waste money) and child (she scratched me first so I can scratch her to the point of scarring); a dynamic where the non-abusive parent has to watch what she says because the abuser is in the room, where the problem is identified by everyone in the family from father to child as the mother not forgiving the father?

I just don't see this situation as acceptable for the health of the children (psychologically, emotionally, or physically); nothing has really changed here at all from what I'm reading.


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## ladydc (Aug 28, 2014)

*Please think hard before you make your decision*

I agree with Linda that ignoring the situation could be setting your kids up to be punching bags in the future. The children should not suffer because their dad is stressed. In this world we all get stressed at one time or another. My father abused my mother and siblings for 12 years. He would apologize, especially if she left and went to stay with her parents. After a few days of her being back though, he would do it again.

My point is- if your husband is willing to do something like scratch your daughter that way or leaving marks on your son there comes a point where you need to think long and hard as to where it becomes your responsibility to take action. From experience I can say what you do or don't do as a parent can leave lasting memories in your kids which can cause them to accept certain things in their own life when they are older which might be harmful to them. Also- I know that my siblings felt some resentment towards my mother for staying with my father as long as she did.

I'm not telling you what decision to make but I'm telling you to please consider everything before you make a decision. It may not seem like the situation effects them now because of course kids love their mom & dad, but in time, what are they going to remember??

My thoughts and prayers are with you and your decisions also with your health.


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## pumabearclan (Nov 14, 2012)

I've been thinking about this thread quite a lot.

Anonamom said that the 4-yr-old forgave her dad moments after he scratched her. From what's been written, though, the child accepted responsibility for her dad scratching her, which is what he told her to do (he shamed her). That's different from forgiving. That's emotional abuse. And the father is also not only blaming his wife for taking the incident seriously, but is *shaming* her by emphasizing that she is irresponsible with the family's resources by wasting money on counseling. That's emotional abuse, and given that the mother and father have to cooperate on the family finances, it is psychological abuse as well in that this tactic disempowers her in the family structure by indicating a power shift in his favor (since she is wasteful and vindictive but he is generous and cooperative).

Actually, this latest update raises even more concerns in my mind for the well-being of the mother and children. This is clearly not a single incident of responding to stress or lashing out or impulse control. The father here is a classic abuser and skillfully manages his relationships in order to gain narcissistic supply. He uses emotional, physical, and psychological abuse strategies quite skillfully and with a great deal of energy in order to shape the "reality" of those around him. Turning counseling for child abuse into martyrdom shows just how invested he is in his narcissistic abuse pattern.

I'm not at all pleased to learn that the counselor asked the wife for a "read" on her husband. That is entirely unprofessional. It's not the mother's responsibility to "inform" on her husband and she shouldn't have been asked to do so. The discourse should have been limited to what happened, how each person was feeling about the incident, and perspectives on the family dynamic. It is the counselor's responsibility to independently assess the client.


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## pumabearclan (Nov 14, 2012)

sillysapling said:


> I agree with this completely:
> 
> *************
> Originally Posted by *alpenglow*
> ...


Yes, absolutely. I think that from what I've seen about situations like these, including some very good conversations here on MDC, that the mother will have to do some work to acquire the very best skills in her relationships so that she can help her children by demonstrating consistency, honesty and compassion with her husband and the children, to "keep it real" and live with conviction that she is doing the right thing for her children & herself. In general I think you are on the right path with this, Anonamom, you are facing a very difficult situation.


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## sillysapling (Mar 24, 2013)

The OP would benefit from counseling as well, although I question what would happen if she even broached the subject.  

I really don't know how someone whose pregnant wife has been diagnosed with cancer and who's started lashing out at his children enough to leave marks could say that therapy is a waste of money. I can understand being stressed out and acting in ways you normally wouldn't, but his response to it is what's really concerning. Hopefully the therapist can help.

I'm so sorry that you're dealing with all of this, I hope everything sorts itself out.


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## pumabearclan (Nov 14, 2012)

I hope that your delivery is/went well. I have been thinking of you and wishing you the best
Puma


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## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

jr37 I am having trouble seeing how your posts are helpful to the OP.


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## sillysapling (Mar 24, 2013)

jr37 said:


> Exactly how did this come about? Are physical offenses common in your home? Did the DD deserve to be scratched back? How did the DD come to scratch your DH in the first place?
> Did DD deserve to get what she gave and were the scratches as "bad" on your DH's arm? Is this the customary form of retaliation or punishment in your home? Do all of your kids hit, pinch, push, scratch, etc. as a routine pattern in your home? Who taught your DD to scratch someone and why?
> If this is normal, routine behavior in your home, why be upset? Later on you say that your child "loves & adores" her daddy so why was she crying after being "scratched back" instead of HAPPY about it? There is so much about your story that is left out that I am at total lose to respond to it. I look forward to any answers to my questions that you care to offer but, as near as I can see, there is no problem there. Your kid got what she deserved and everyone is happy so what's the fuss?


 Alright, this needs to be responded to specifically because [email protected][email protected]! The OP never said this was normal, routine behavior. The OP wouldn't be so horrified if this happened on a regular basis. The child was upset because _her father scratched her badly_. So a combination of pain as well as fear and confusion that her beloved parent hurt her. Plenty of people have gone over why a child would accept this behavior from a parent and blame themself rather than the parent- that doesn't make it acceptable. No child deserves to be abused.


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## alpenglow (Oct 29, 2007)

OP, I am thinking of you and sending peace and vibes your way. You sound like a great mom.

The long provocative, judgemental post by jr37 demanding answers and berating the OP is not helpful, IMO. Things are never that simple unfortunately, and only the OP can really decide what is best for her situation.


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## pumabearclan (Nov 14, 2012)

I think that user may be a troll. Lots of flaming and raging and blaming and shaming without contributing anything. JMO.


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## Cherry_Blossom (Nov 7, 2009)

pumabearclan said:


> I think that user may be a troll. Lots of flaming and raging and blaming and shaming without contributing anything. JMO.


I think that person makes a lot of sense. jr37 is a survivor of child abuse, and you can see how much it affects someone. He or she is trying to protect other children from growing up like he or she did. His or her post sounds very real. I can see how it is way too harsh for some people, but that is how abuse makes you. OP, this will be your child in 37 years if you don't put a stop to it. People treat the world how the world (parents) treated them as kids.


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## pumabearclan (Nov 14, 2012)

Perhaps, but dumping on a stranger? Picking apart the posts, copious sarcasm, seems like someone trolling, looking for a target for their anger at their parents.

And I have agreed that the problem the OP is facing is indeed very serious.

Maybe the post will make an impression on the OP. But will people post seeking advice if they get responses like these. 

So I'm not feeling comfortable with this person's participation so far.


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## Polliwog (Oct 29, 2006)

pumabearclan said:


> Perhaps, but dumping on a stranger? Picking apart the posts, copious sarcasm, seems like someone trolling, looking for a target for their anger at their parents.
> 
> And I have agreed that the problem the OP is facing is indeed very serious.
> 
> ...


I agree. If not a troll, definitely not someone who practices gentle posting.


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## cynthia mosher (Aug 20, 1999)

Regardless of what jr37's background is or what personal issues provoked this sort of response, his/her posts are out of line. jr37, if you wish to continue as a member of this community please email me at [email protected].


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## alpenglow (Oct 29, 2007)

Yes I would stop posting if I received judgemental accusatory replies like that. Hurt people hurt, but its not an excuse to cross a line into berating someone who is trying to reach out and make sense of the crazymaking going on at home. This is part of the reason why it is often easier to stay quiet about abuse.


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## jr37 (Sep 23, 2014)

EarthRootsStarSoul said:


> I think that person makes a lot of sense.


I believe it would be useful to go into some details about exactly what "sense" my post makes to you. What items in my post make sense to you?


> jr37 is a survivor of child abuse, and you can see how much it affects someone. He or she is trying to protect other children from growing up like he or she did. His or her post sounds very real. I can see how it is way too harsh for some people, but that is how abuse makes you.


It would be useful, IMO, to quote from my post in order to discuss or examine what is of value there and/or what is not of value - FOR YOU.


> OP, this will be your child in 37 years if you don't put a stop to it. People treat the world how the world (parents) treated them as kids.


IMO, the OP's kids will never become damaged abuse survivors so long as the kids adore and love their daddy as the OP claims they do. 
Thank you, EarthRootsStarSoul, for supporting my post and I hope your support will not cause you any trouble here. 
I'd like to have anybody else quote specific items from my post to demonstrate what is so offensive about it, in their opinion, rather than use sweeping, generalizations to condemn my entire post. Ultimately, we are only offering opinions here and everyone is free to simply IGNORE anyone's opinions that they don't like.


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## Cherry_Blossom (Nov 7, 2009)

jr37 said:


> I believe it would be useful to go into some details about exactly what "sense" my post makes to you. What items in my post make sense to you?
> It would be useful, IMO, to quote from my post in order to discuss or examine what is of value there and/or what is not of value - FOR YOU.


I think your previous post was removed, but I can see how angry you are at your father for hurting you. There comes a time when the child grows up and the mind matures into an adult way of thinking, and then looking back with an adult perspective you can suddenly realize how awful your parents were. A child has to just accept that's just the way things are with no previous experience or expectations from life. I went through some hard soul-searching to realize that the term battered child applied to me long ago. And I think, "How could my parents act like that? How? Why?" It's a cheap way of parenting. The parent gains temporary control over the child, but some really important things are lost, like trust, happiness, affection. And it damages the child's sense of self, they lose: confidence, healthy boundaries, what to expect in a healthy relationship, normal conflict management, how to express their needs, etc.

And I can tell you are mad at your mom for not doing anything to protect you. And I hate my mom for how spineless she is too. But she was raised that way in a deeply patriarchal family and a deeply patriarchal Catholic school. And with some Native American family history, there was a lot of really nasty stuff done to my ancestors which I can see had become inter-generational. Whatever the reason, I don't have to deal with it. The relationship can be over. Poof! I haven't had contact with my parents in many years.

My emotions toward them are just as vicious as yours, but if you don't want to get banned, you should probably tone it down. I think when a post gets deleted, you aren't really supposed to talk about it, because it was going down the wrong road. You can maybe make another thread to talk about your own issues. Which I would find interesting.


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## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

jr37 said:


> Ultimately, we are only offering opinions here and everyone is free to simply IGNORE anyone's opinions that they don't like.


I guess we all use forums in different ways, but speaking as someone who has been posting on MDC for many years, a lot more goes on here than sharing opinions. We offer advice, support and develop friendships. That kind of helpfulness and support comes from truly understanding a poster's situation and perspective and I didn't see that in your posts.

The harsh reality in the OPs situation (and for those of us who have been in similar circumstances) is that we cannot control another's behavior. The OP, and those of us who have been where she has been, can talk, beg, demand, our partners change, we can suggest counseling, we can report to CPS in extreme circumstances, but we cannot force another to change nor can we control the family court decisions. Stating the OP should just fix the situation and berating her for not doing so does not help her or her children.

I was in a very similar situation to the OP several years ago; eventually I left my husband, but here's the thing: like the OP, the things my XH was doing were not severe enough to warrant supervised custody. My children spend more unsupervised time with their dad than they did when we were still living together.

I have two real-life friends who were in similar circumstances; in one mother's case the family court did not believe the allegations of abuse and awarded the father equal custody. Every other week she has to send her children to live with someone who beat her. She has spent the last five years contesting the decision but has not been successful yet. My other friend is choosing to stay so far: her husband has threatened to kill their daughter if she leaves him. She has been to about seven different lawyers and contacted the local domestic violence shelter and the advice is unanimous: based on how the family court rules here, her child's dad will get at least some unsupervised custody. If she goes into hiding and is found, her child's father will get sole custody. She has decided it is safer for her daughter if she stays.

These aren't extreme situations or exaggerations. These are regular people who have regular jobs, regular friends, and live in regular neighborhoods. There are hundreds, thousands, maybe millions of parents in similar situations. The family court is not set up to deal with domestic violence or child abuse and this is the reality of what goes on when people leave abusive partners and parents.

When I was posting threads similar to this, I got extremely good advice from people who understood all of this- that I cannot control my children's dad's behavior and the family court cannot be relied on to protect my children. Those women were able to show me what could do to protect my children the best I could (which isn't 100%, my children still have 50 unsupervised hours with their dad every week and unless he breaks a limb or does something equally severe, there's nothing I can do to change that). Their understanding gave me the support I needed to stay strong and confident, which helped me be a more relaxed, loving parent instead of the stressed out, strung out shadow of a person I had become. That's the kind of support I want this OP to receive here.


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## jr37 (Sep 23, 2014)

Anonamom said:


> I love my husband...The kids adore him.... He is a good dad 95% of the time.... The kids are so loving and forgiving even when he is a total aXXhole 5% of the time.... Our kids love him.... My husband is usually so loving and gentle, but he has a temper that comes out sometimes.


I just don't see a problem there at all so long as the kids "love, adore and forgive" their "good, loving and gentle" dad. If the kids were being traumatized and damaged, I'd suggest some kind of professional help but all seems well as you describe it so far. Perhaps others will have more to offer you but I just don't see a problem there.
Respectfully yours


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## jr37 (Sep 23, 2014)

Wild Lupine said:


> and I didn't see that in your posts.


Why don't you quote my posts and then there can be some kind of meaningful comments by me or others about them?


> Stating the OP should just fix the situation and berating her for not doing so does not help her or her children.


LOL, who ever told the OP that? Where are the quotes to support your statements?


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## jr37 (Sep 23, 2014)

Wild Lupine said:


> jr37 I am having trouble seeing how your posts are helpful to the OP.


quote my post and then I will try to help you see the "helpful" parts.


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## jr37 (Sep 23, 2014)

EarthRootsStarSoul said:


> I think your previous post was removed,


Yes, so there really is nothing more to say about my post which should cause everyone to stay on topic and go ahead with comments, etc. for the OP. 


> I went through some hard soul-searching to realize that the term battered child applied to me long ago. And I think, "How could my parents act like that? How? Why?" It's a cheap way of parenting.


I feel very sorry that you had to go through that trauma.


> The parent gains temporary control over the child, but some really important things are lost, like trust, happiness, affection. And it damages the child's sense of self, they lose: confidence, healthy boundaries, what to expect in a healthy relationship, normal conflict management, how to express their needs, etc.


I agree.


> The relationship can be over. Poof! I haven't had contact with my parents in many years.


Sorry about that.



> My emotions toward them are just as vicious as yours, but if you don't want to get banned, you should probably tone it down.


I hope that you don't get banned for showing me some respect and courtesy here.


> I think when a post gets deleted, you aren't really supposed to talk about it, because it was going down the wrong road.


Looks like a lot of others are still writing about my Ex-post so it's too late now. 


> You can maybe make another thread to talk about your own issues. Which I would find interesting.


I don't have any "issues" to start a thread over. I'm pretty much at peace with the bad parenting that I survived. I only use my life experiences and childhood to perhaps help someone else see what is happening in their own life.
Thanks for showing me some dignity and respect even if it might get you banned. I wonder why so many people abandoned the OP's Topic to take on my posts? My post was never the Topic of this Thread!


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## radiowave (Jun 29, 2007)

Has anyone heard from @Anonamom? I am concerned after reading this thread.


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## pumabearclan (Nov 14, 2012)

radiowave said:


> Has anyone heard from @Anonamom ? I am concerned after reading this thread.


Thank you


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## sillysapling (Mar 24, 2013)

jr37 said:


> I just don't see a problem there at all so long as the kids "love, adore and forgive" their "good, loving and gentle" dad. If the kids were being traumatized and damaged, I'd suggest some kind of professional help but all seems well as you describe it so far. Perhaps others will have more to offer you but I just don't see a problem there.
> Respectfully yours


Yes, because "good, gentle, loving" parents leave awful wounds on their children and make said children feel they need to blame themselves for the abuse. You're also not a therapist working with these children and therefore cannot judge whether or not the children are being traumatized or negatively effected.

(and, by the way, the kids are being physically damaged, that's the entire point of this thread)


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## nexxus (Feb 2, 2014)

Anonamom,
I would suggest being present at all times when your husband is with the kids. The same way you would carefully monitor a 4 year old with a 1 year old. Consider your husband to be just a bigger child in your house who need to be monitored when with smaller children. You can then break it up before the temper lets loose. In ten years your kids will be big and your husbands behavior will be obselete. Many of us from the older generations grew up with dads who did spanking and had violent tendencies. We got through it with running to our mom for help. My dads worst violence did stop at one point, when my mom threatened to kill him in his sleep about 5 years into the marriage. After then it was spankings and intimidation. Today is is 75 years old (much calmer) and none of it mattered. He had issues and we got over it.


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## Anonamom (Jul 25, 2014)

Hi, everyone -
I wanted to give a quick update while I have a moment.

First, our son is here!! He is healthy, beautiful, and so precious. I'm so thankful and blessed that he came through this difficult pregnancy (I had to have a 4-hour surgery under general anesthesia at 28 weeks)

My husband stopped seeing the counselor a few weeks before DS was born. I had to convince him to at least go one more time for a "wrap up" session. He went, but it sounds like it was a waste of time. My husband said the counselor talked about music with him for much of the session and he had a feeling the counselor wanted to get together with him and "jam" (husband plays guitar) but didn't ask only because it would be unprofessional. 

So to say I am disappointed in the counseling is an understatement. There is no way I could get him to see another counselor so I feel like that was my one shot. 

There have been a few incidents, but minor, since I last posted. He was screaming at the kids in the locker room of the YMCA, which really upset the kids. This was when I was home with the newborn. He pushed my daughter hard, and she almost feel off the piano bench. This upset her, but left no marks. There have been several incidents of yelling, etc. but no physical violence. 

I'm about to enter my second stage of cancer treatment and I still feel lost. I still don't feel confident that I'm handling his anger the right way. My women's bible group is starting up again this coming February, and I asked my husband if I could go to that. (It would require him to watch the baby for 2 hours a week... but the older two are in school.) He said I could, so I'm thinking that might be a good safe place for me to talk to people about this situation. There are some older women in the group that are so loving and so wise. I have a feeling they can help guide me. 

Thank you all for your responses. I think the post from jr37 that people were upset about got deleted before I could read it. From what she wrote (that I could read anyway) I saw nothing upsetting. I truly appreciate everyone's input. Everyone has a different perspective, and whether i agree with it or not, I find it very very helpful. 

I wish had a more positive update. Right now I am trying to focus on my children and my cancer treatment. I'm minimizing any time alone he has with them. 

I hope once I feel stronger physically, I'll feel more clear headed about what I need to do. 

Sorry if the above is a bit scattered. That reflects how I'm feeling right now too! 

Thank you again, so much, for reaching out with all your advice and opinions and well wishes. You've all made me feel a little less alone with this.


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## head4thehills (Feb 19, 2014)

Anonamom, congratulations on the safe arrival of your precious son! Despite everything else going on in your life, at least you have your beautiful children. I know it is often so painful and emotionally hard for you. I think that having children makes all emotions more complicated. I love my children so much that it makes my heart ache when I pause to think about it. And considering everything you are going through, you must feel these things even more keenly.

One thing I was wondering, would it be at all possible or convenient for you to take your baby with you to your bible group? When my LO's were babies (and one still is a baby, but nearly a toddler), I would take them with me to meetings. I found everyone was very understanding and accommodating, and I felt better about having the baby close by for feedings, since I was exclusively breastfeeding. If you feel more comfortable leaving the baby home with your husband, then that's fine too. 

It really is too bad that counselling was such a waste of time for your husband. I have no experience with this, but in order for it to work, I assume he has to want it to work. And if he doesn't see a problem with his behaviour, counselling is probably just not going to change anything. It would probably take a very rare kind of therapist to get through to him. 

It's probably reasonable to assume that some of his behaviour is a reaction to stress and frustration. Once again, though, it takes a willing soul to see that one's behaviour is wrong and try to redirect those actions away from the children. It is so unfair to them to receive the brunt of his temper (even if it isn't as bad as what some children have experienced, it's bad enough, IMO) when they, being children, are incapable of standing up for themselves. Even grown-ups have trouble being on the receiving end of someone else's outbursts.

That said, I really hope you are holding up well through all this. It's a horribly difficult situation, and there is no easy answer. There is probably no "right" way for you to deal with his anger. It's his emotion, he has to take ownership of it. I know there are some people who can face another person's anger with patience, understanding, and sweetness. I haven't mastered the technique, myself. I'm one of those who collapses in a heap of rotten feelings. However, the ladies in your bible group may have more wise and experienced words of advice for you. It is so important, when it comes to complicated life and family issues, to have such people you can talk to.

Best wishes to you and your family!


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## alpenglow (Oct 29, 2007)

Anonamom, thank you so much for updating us. Your posts have haunted me and I wish I could send some guardian angels to give you comfort and healing. Congratulations on the birth of a healthy baby, and for remaining so strong throughout all you are going through.

You are handling your husband's anger the best way you possibly can. Do realize that it is his issue, and not in any way your fault. The choices you make are yours alone to make....so while it can look obvious to outsiders looking in, you are the one who has to deal with the consequences. Be as gentle with yourself as possible.

He really does sound emotionally abusive towards you in covert/manipulative ways, that make it hard for it to be recognized as abuse. However, I would say that the behaviour you describe in how he has treated the kids is child abuse, especially since he takes no responsibility and seems entitled and acts justified about it. 

His telling you that his counsellor implied they are buddies could actually be an outright lie - counsellors by law must guarantee confidentiality or risk losing the licence to practise. My xh, who looks like a saint to his friends, did this - told me things his counsellor said, which I now know could not possibly be true...or else were severely taken out of context. He knew how to wear his mask in the right places, and uses his public relations training to cover his narcissistic/abusive/entitled nature under the mask of false humility and public nice guy. He totally milks it. 

Your idea of getting out for self care is such a good one, and I do hope you can make that a priority, to find outside sources of validation, not attached to your dh. Do build support networks to replace the lack of support from him. 

I like headforthehill's suggestion. For me, it would have been easier to take the baby with me than deal with the fallout of a dh who is ill equipped to deal with a newborn. When I was married, if I went out, my h (now xh) would be sulking and passive aggressive if it didn't go well. But I didn't go out much - at most he had an hour/week alone with baby. You might meet a mama who adores your newborn, and would be more than happy to give you a break for an hour or two while dh is at work. Or hire a babysitter to look after the kids while your dh is at work. One lady from a church group I have been to brings her baby, and the mamas all love it - and get the baby holding fix! 

Will be thinking of you. Wishing you much strength on this journey.


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## Letitia (Aug 27, 2009)

Do you wear the little one wrapped against your body? A lot of babies are very quiet in that situation. Maybe you could sit, or maybe you could stand up and rock side to side a little if he needed that. If it were me, I would want to take the baby with me. I so feel for you and your children. I really worry about someone who has hurt a kid, really worry. 

I am so sorry about having to deal with cancer and this. I have been through a cancer diagnosis and treatment, and I know everybody's cancer is different, but I can't imagine this is a walk in the park. Mine was stage III breast cancer, and I know of a lot of online resources/groups if that sort of thing would fit a need for you.


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## Just-a-mom (Feb 26, 2015)

Unfortunately, we may be married to the same man! I could have written most of this about my family.  I wish you the best.


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## organicmom3 (Oct 7, 2009)

First, DOn't assume the marriage needs to be over. Obviously he's a good hearted man but also obviously has issues. You need to demand that he get help. He MUST see a therapist and take some sort of anger management classes. YOU need to feel you and the kids are safe. If that means temporarily living apart while he goes through getting help, then do it. Do not take a chance of living together if you are not safe during this time of him getting help. But there is hope. Many do get through this. Do you go to church? Perhaps a priest or pastor can guide you trhough the steps.


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## JuliaDDTlaw (Mar 26, 2015)

Anonamom said:


> I've posted here on mothering before, but created this anonymous account due to the sensitivity of this issue.
> 
> I don't know what to do. I love my husband. We've been married for 8 years. We have a 4 and 5 year old and a 3rd child on the way. I'm a full time SAHM.
> 
> ...


In this situation your husband behaved infantile. You might want him to consult a psychologist regarding his infantile reactions and anger managment.
Don't yell at him or be annoying it will destroy your relationship. No one wanna come back in a place where they feel unhappy. It's not a huge issue. A good dad 95% of the times is a good score! And it's better than not having a husband and dad at all.


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## pumabearclan (Nov 14, 2012)

JuliaDDTlaw said:


> it's better than not having a husband and dad at all.


An abuser is not really a father or husband. What looks like a marriage and family, if one person (or more) is an abuser, is a horrible farce.

So many justifications for abuse here on MDC. Part of the reason I don't participate here any more.


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## alpenglow (Oct 29, 2007)

Yeah, and comments that blame the women and assume they "provoke" or annoy get really old after a while...

Abuse is the fault of the abuser.


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## alpenglow (Oct 29, 2007)

JuliaDDTLaw....if you are a lawyer, please read "Why Does He Do That" by Lundy Bancroft, and "Splitting" by Bill Eddy.


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

JuliaDDTlaw said:


> Don't yell at him or be annoying it will destroy your relationship. No one wanna come back in a place where they feel unhappy. It's not a huge issue. A good dad 95% of the times is a good score! And it's better than not having a husband and dad at all.


A parent can completely wreck a kid by committing abusive acts a mere 5% of the time.

I sincerely hope that you are not settling for this kind of thing in your own life.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Do you know about the cycle of abuse? This is very common behavior: Tension builds, he blows up, he minimizes, y'all go back to almost normal.

He doesn't see this as a problem, because it's not one to him. The fact that your daughter, at 4, knows enough about the dynamics not to tell your parents the whole truth is very concerning.

I strongly suggest you read: _Why does he do that? Inside the minds of angry and controlling men. _

Do NOT engage in joint counseling with him until he's done a lot of work on himself. Abusers are famous for deflecting blame onto their partners. The fact that his counselor met each of you separately and said that if this is a CPS matter, he'd be mandated to do 15 or 20 visits should show you how serious this is.

YOU are pregnant, have cancer and are caring for two small children, and yet he is the one who's losing his control. HE scratched your daughter so badly your parents noticed and the scars are still there, and yet he blames her.

I understand that the thought of leaving is terrifying and that it might not happen right away. But it is not better to keep kids with an abusive dad because as someone else elegantly pointed out, it teaches them really awful, codependent ways of thinking.


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## Layla_Lurker (Aug 3, 2015)

Hello, Anonamom - 

I don't want to be here. It is hard for me, but I may be one of the most experienced people here to give you advice. 

See... I've been involved in a couple domestic violence centers. I was also about your kids' age when my dad started doing things like your husband is. Mom never learned when she left him. She just married and stayed with my stepfather, because he always showed so much "regret." 

I wish I could tell you my situation is odd and that abusers change. But it is actually a very rare thing for someone like that to ever change and it is something they have to do all by themselves (and very few abusers do). I'm not making this up. I wish I was. Please, please research it and check statistics. Don't minimize it or hold out hope your husband will get better. You will not be doing yourself or your kids any great favor. 

Please do not pressure your husband to get anymore counseling. Counseling rarely changes abusive behavior. It can, however, serve in teaching him how to hide his behavior. I cannot post links, bc this is a new account. Please google "does counseling work for abusers?"

Please take time to find yourself and your children the following: 1) a family counselor you can trust (they are not easy to find, but so very important for healing and to have as advocates); 2) a very good attorney. 

Create a cloud account with a password. Each time your husband leaves marks on your kids, distract them and carefully photograph the injuries with a camera (or app) that has timestamps enabled. Make sure you keep this very well hidden from your husband and upload those pictures to the cloud account each time—as well as a memory stick that you keep hidden away from the house. Delete the pictures off the devices. If your husband's behavior gets worse (and I'm sorry, but it probably will) this will help you keep him from having unsupervised custody in the case you need him out of the picture.

Make sure you start looking for professionals and advocates now. If you are scared of your children being taken, find a trust-worthy attorney first. They are confidential. Yes, you may want to stay with this man right now, but it's better to have options open and all the help you can get as these situations often do get worse—and if that happens you *don't* want to be scrambling to find help. You and your kids deserve better. Don't make any more excuses for this man. There is no excuse for abusive behavior no matter how much someone was abused and/or regrets what they did. 

Do not let your kid's happy-go-lucky behavior fool you either. We are often fooled into believing children are more resilient than they really are. The truth is most kids behave in the moment, but violent memories can traumatize for life. This stuff your husband is doing will wreck their childhoods and their adulthoods. The more they live in this the more likely they will end up abusers or in an abusive relationship (usually both), and/or sabotaging their own lives. 

I know this comes on strong, but you need to know this. It may save you and your kids a lot of hell down the road. I have lived my life in fear until a few years ago and seen it happen to people close to me—as well as talking with social workers who see it regularly. I've had to cut off my family. It's a horrible choice I wouldn't wish on anyone, but it has been the best thing in the world for myself and every person who needs me—including my husband and children. My dad was an attorney. He didn't leave obvious marks on me. I lived my childhood in fear—thinking a couple times in my teens he was going to literally kill me. My stepfather used many ugly words, but also threw me on the floor regularly. Didn't leave marks. Abuse doesn't always have black eyes and huge bruises like you see on TV. 

Please give your kids a better childhood than that. Please give yourself a happier early adulthood, too, and a chance to raise happy kids who feel safe and respect you. You can't change your husband's behavior, but you can control the rest of your life. If you have to leave him, they will miss him, but they won't miss the continuous fear and feelings of worthlessness.

Edit - Please, please, please don't hesitate to take action. You don't have to do anything that causes conflict right now, but document the hell out of everything and find pros you can trust. I say this because the longer you wait, the better your husband will get at either hiding his behavior or finding ways to discredit you or your children—often to people who should be helping you the most (family, close friends, professionals). Domestic abusers are really good at making their spouses and/or victims look like raving over-sensitive crazy people.


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## Layla_Lurker (Aug 3, 2015)

For the record, I'm not going to write or respond any more here. But I just couldn't turn the other way. I apologize for being blunt, but there is no minimizing when someone harms a child enough to leave marks like that. Speaking from a scary amount of experience and education. 

Maybe tell people here where you are from (state) and some folks can PM or list here some resources—or better yet—look for an anonymous domestic violence support group (yes, child abuse is a type of domestic violence) and ask for resources there. It may take time to find local people who are really helpful, but it is important to start looking ASAP. 

Hope you and your little ones get the help you need!


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## Collier (Sep 7, 2015)

Just be honest about what happened and how hurt and horrified you have been that it did. The consequences are his to take, and given how lightly he is taking your concern, some outside perspective might be helpful.


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## Collier (Sep 7, 2015)

The reality of codependency is that unless the abuser reforms, there will be ongoing abuse. In truth, every person who lives in a state of mistrust and fear of punishment is being psychologically and emotionally abused anyway, even if the physical abuse is "under control."


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## RStelle (Jul 12, 2011)

Wow, I am really sorry you are going through this. I wanted to say that I really hope you do not let this slide. I know someone who had a simaler situation. Just a few pushes when her kid was out of control, she felt bad, was trying to deal with it, and so on. Long story short her kid was driving her crazy, she roughly grabed his arm, so roughly that she dislocated his arm. Someday, especially since your life is about to get a lot more stressful, if your husband doesn't truelly deal with this he will end up seriously hurting one of the kids. They have a great relationship with him now, but if this keeps happening, even if it is only once a year, they will say "when I was growing up my dad hurt us". And they won't have a great relationship with him anymore. I don't want to sound dramatic but that is how it is. You are pregnant and have cancer. You shouldn't have to deal with this, he needs to be thinking about you and your family, you are #1 right now, and no matter how stressed he is, that is absolutely not an excuse for what he did. I would work hard to get him to understand that this is very sereous. Tell him that he needs to make sure that this does not happen again. This should definitely involve counsling, anger management, and a safety plan. He needs to take full responsability and deal with this, at the same time not making a ton more stress for you. I would also think about not having him be alone with the kids for a while. Reaching out here is a good first step, but it is time to reach out for help in real life too. It may feel embarrassing, but remember that you did not do anything wrong. You deserve help and support. Good luck!


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## lauren (Nov 20, 2001)

This thread is over a year old; I'm not sure if the OP has been back around recently. Just wanted to let you know.


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## Notperfectatall (Jul 4, 2021)

I know I'm ages old to this post but I'm so glad i saw this. I snapped. I wasn't lucky enough to walk away fast. I feel completely and utterly awful. I feel like a failure as a mother. I'm just glad I'm not the only one. 


momOplenty said:


> you're not overreacting at all. it's totally normal to feel the pain of the situation. does he have a history of depression or anything? i'll tell you (and i should not admit this online, but i will), we've had a similar situation in our home, but reversed. i've been the bully to my own kids. so from understanding his side myself, and getting violent bursts of anger, even if infrequently, i get it. i actually bit a kid one time. he bit me so hard, i had to jab my fingers into his jaw to get him off of me. then i bit his little arm right back. i thought i'd scare him, but i left a bruise. and it's the worst thing to admit to, and i know people will think i didn't deserve kids. but i assure you, this is something that does NOT happen 99.99999% of the time here. be sad and upset, tell him so, and having him leave the house is a good idea, even if just a couple of hours to cool off. i've though about myself, and my anger, if i could escape for just a few minutes, i would never get mad. sometimes we do really dumb stuff. like, REALLY dumb. i'm not trying to make any excuses for him, i'm only saying, even the 'best' parents can snap. of course, if this were something frequent, my advice would be different. but if its something that has rarely happened, it will likely be ok. see if he can learn to walk away fast when he feels the anger start. some of us can do something so dumb in a split second, and not realize the damage. i'm so sorry though, there's nothing worse than seeing something like that happen to one of your kids.


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