# what do you say to someone who wants a baby but doesnt want to give birth?



## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Hi, a friend was asking for advice. She said she wanted a baby, but didnt want to be pregnant, give birth, or to breastfeed, because she found being pregnant would make her vulnerable and dependent and birth would be painful. She didnt like being in her body so to speak,...but, she wanted a baby. It was all about choices she said.

She's thinking of getting a surrogate for these reasons. I said she might as well hire a wetnurse for breastfeeding.

I didnt want to say i thought she was crazy....and that she was being cheated of the experience of giving life that is the primordial birthright of every woman since the beginning of time. I did say birth was natural, but that didnt seem to convince her.

What would you say? (without being judgmental, and while taking her feelings into account)


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## philomom (Sep 12, 2004)

I have a young friend like this, too. All I do is tell her how glorious and strong I felt with natural childbirth and what a cool thing it was to nourish pink healthy babes with my milk and know that I provided for them in that special way. Not sure she's buying it, though.


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Maybe she should adopt.


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## Beccadoula (Jan 7, 2008)

Well...there are many homeless babies and little children all over the world...perhaps your friend will find one of these and love him/her in a beautiful way that no one else could. I know it sounds very strange, but imagine a world where no one took those babies that are otherwise unwanted...what a sick and sad place this would be. Maybe this friend of yours was just designed to fill just such a need...as strange as it might sound to someone else. Like the people who just have to work emotionally challenged teens...or the ones who search out retarded children and adopt a whole bunch...just because they want to share their love. Maybe your friend is just scared of labor, but even so...she can share her own love and life with a baby and that is great.

If she is just scared you could share with her all the great experiences and how silly the fears are?


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## Jaysfamily (Jun 5, 2008)

Did you ask her if she had considered adoption?


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## Mosaic (Jun 20, 2005)

I dunno... sometimes women have very good reasons for feeling the way that they do, even if they can't put it in terms that we can understand. If she has such strong feelings about control and vulnerability, and she can afford and would prefer to find a surrogate, I agree that is her choice. Just as it's her choice to adopt if she'd rather not undergo the birthing process. We need to keep in mind that not everyone views birth as an empowering, magical, beautiful right of passage; so if she is in touch with her needs and wishes, more power to her for pursuing them!


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

I did suggest adoption, but her partner (and herself) think adoption is too risky, because the child is so called 'damaged'....


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## barefootpoetry (Jul 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *contactmaya* 
I did suggest adoption, but her partner (and herself) think adoption is too risky, because the child is so called 'damaged'....









: Um, wow. That ticks me off even more than the original comment.

Maybe she should just be a nanny then.


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## MeepyCat (Oct 11, 2006)

How old is this person? Are her thoughts about having a baby long-term ones or is she making plans for the near future?

I have heard many, many pre-teens and teenagers express these ideas. They are either going through puberty or recently through it, and they feel squicked and even sort of betrayed by their bodies. They are freaked out by the thought of sex, and by the way their bodies respond to certain kinds of stimulation ("why are my panties all wet? Ew!"). Not all teen girls have these reactions, but many do. They are generally expressing their discomfort with the physical changes they've recently been through and with the new ways they relate to their bodies. Most of them grow into themselves and get over it, and the best way to react when they're going through this stage is to be understanding. "It can be very weird to have your body change on you suddenly." Don't argue about it, don't challenge them about it, let it lie. It very often happens that, when these people get comfortable with sex (when they have healthy, consensual sexual relationships), they also get more comfortable with the idea of pregnancy.

The experience of giving life is all very groovy, but there is no primordial birthright - some women are unable to have healthy pregnancies. Nature is not interested in fairness.

If your friend is not comfortable with or in her body, you cannot make her comfortable by arguing. My temptation would be simply to say that there is no way to have babies that doesn't come with some overwhelming oddity - surrogacy is not without weirdness, and babies themselves can be a tad freaky (those ultrasound pics that are all spine, meconium, projectile spit-up, projectile poop). If you are very lucky (read: rich) you may be able to pick a preferred version of strange for gestation, but fundamentally, raising a child is an exercise in which you will have to confront your vulnerability and dependence on others. You may be able to avoid the pains of labor and delivery, but your kid will accidently sock you a thousand times before reaching the age of reason, and there a million ways for a baby to break your heart.

(That all sounds terribly anti-child - please don't take it that way. I think the bruises and the heartbreak are well worth it.)


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## luckymamato2 (Jun 3, 2006)

Going through IVF is no picnic - you have to go through months of blood tests, expensive medications, poking yourself with needles several times a day, etc. The only way to use a surrogate is to go through IVF to retrieve the intended mother's eggs. Her reasoning may turn off her selected reproductive endocrinologist (RE).

I would ask her to consider adoption - and do some research first. My child is not "damaged" or unwanted.


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *contactmaya* 
I did suggest adoption, but her partner (and herself) think adoption is too risky, because the child is so called 'damaged'....

Then I'd suggest that she get a plant.







:


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frog* 
Maybe she should adopt.









:
And better yet, adopt an older baby. If she isn't up for pregnancy birth or breastfeeding how's she going to handle hourly feedings around the clock?


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *contactmaya* 
I did suggest adoption, but her partner (and herself) think adoption is too risky, because the child is so called 'damaged'....

Wow. Just... wow.

Frog's idea is great, except I'd say she should make it a silk plant and maybe also get a pet rock.

Actually you know what? They've got these great super-realistic dolls that look just like cute little babies and even fit in real baby gear. If she wants a baby but doesn't want to take any risk in getting one, that's the way to go. I think they're called "reborns" or something.


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## mikayla's mama (May 22, 2005)

Honestly, it doesn't sound like she is ready for a baby. Having a baby, as everyone here knows, is taking on a huge responsibility and all about making sacrifices. The comment about adopted babies being "damaged" is very concerning... what if she gets a surrogate and the baby is handicapped in some way? By what you've said, she doesn't sound capable of mother's love at this point.


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

I think its a valid reaction.

Our society portrays pregnancy and birth as an inconvenience at best and very, very painful and dangerous at worst.

I'd encourage her to adopt in that case.


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## annakiss (Apr 4, 2003)

I would remind her that there are reasons that we give birth beyond just getting a baby. The birth process is how our hormonal blueprint of attachment unfolds. How does she expect to feel nurturing with so little in the way of attachment to the process? And if she feels that adoptable children are damaged, how would she expect to confront the very real risks of life and caring for someone other than ourselves? How can she expect that she is even capable of caring for a child if she shows such dettachment to the process?

I would think that someone so incredibly dettached - and the damaged children comment stinks of that worse than not wanting to give birth or breastfeed - would really run very high risks of not being able to handle the intense stress of actually having a baby and child: depression, anger, abuse.

Without attachment (which comes best from normal, uninhibited and unmedicated birth), what is there? What is the point? As Michel Odent says, "Can we survive without love?"

Additionally, while I see that surrogacy is a choice for the elite who can afford it - is it really often a matter of just choosing? Or isn't it usually a last resort after being unable to have children? Why would someone so randomly and blithely put someone else through that (even for money)? Her risks of having a "damaged" child are still there. They do not disappear even if they diminish. Why such a disregard for the very real psychological implications of parenting for herself, her partner, a potential surrogate, and most importantly, her child?


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## leila1213 (Sep 15, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *contactmaya* 
I did suggest adoption, but her partner (and herself) think adoption is too risky, because the child is so called 'damaged'....

And why is that? Might it be because their parents were not prepared for the yucky inconveniences and selflessness that it takes to have children? And thus, these babies were put into their present predicament, which caused this "damage" to their psyches? I'm wondering whether any baby she has would be better off, if she can't get over the discomfort of a simple, natural, beautiful process, and what makes her think it would be any better of a situation by making it crazy, messy and expensive?


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## UnassistedMomma (Jan 24, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 







:
And better yet, adopt an older baby. If she isn't up for pregnancy birth or breastfeeding how's she going to handle hourly feedings around the clock?

Well, you know the older they are, the more damaged they are so that's probably not a good option.








:


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

Ok, if she doesn't want to be pregnant, birth, breastfeed, or have a potentially "damanged" child, I guess she can get one of those reborn baby dolls. That should be safe, right?







: I mean, even your own biological child could have a disability or a condition--does that mean that child doesn't deserve a chance? Or is it only adopted children that don't?


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## johnsmom (Oct 22, 2007)

I'd have trouble giving this friend helpful, non-judgemental advice.
I was about to second the adoption of an older child idea, until you mentioned that she thought kids available for adoption were "damaged".
She doesn't sound like a very nurturing person.
Pregnancy, birth and breastfeeding are part of what make us human. We're mammals after all, not robots.


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## April422 (Nov 28, 2007)

I'd say "It's unfortunate to me that you feel that way. Being pregnant and giving birth was so re-affirming of life and my womanhood that I can't imagine ever feeling as you do about those processes." "On the other hand, maybe this is your clear message from God, fates, Goddess, whoever, that you're not meant to have children. There are only so many ways that children come into our lives, and you seem to be opposed to just about all of them."


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## Cherry Alive (Mar 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *contactmaya* 
I did suggest adoption, but her partner (and herself) think adoption is too risky, because the child is so called 'damaged'....











Sorry, but when someone uses words like that, they usually just are not ready to be a parent.

So far, her best bet is to buy a pretty baby doll.


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## jr'smom (Oct 17, 2005)

...silk plant and pet rock sound like the best option to me









Oh, my!

Pregnancy and childbirth are the EASY parts of having children, is what I would tell her. (Obviously they are not easy either...but that's the point!)

How "damaged" do you think her child may be when he/she finds out mommy wouldn't even carry and birth him/her? How nurturing! I'm sure nanny or day care comes next.


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## diamond lil (Oct 6, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *contactmaya* 
I did suggest adoption, but her partner (and herself) think adoption is too risky, because the child is so called 'damaged'....

Then I would tell her to just get a puppy. People with attitudes like that don't really deserve to be parents, IMO.


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## AllyRae (Dec 10, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *diamond lil* 
Then I would tell her to just get a puppy. People with attitudes like that don't really deserve to be parents, IMO.

Puppies are hard too--they poop and pee everywhere, chew tons of things, and require tons of attention. I'm not sure I'd even recommend that if the above options were too hard...


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

I would respond by laughing for a LONG time and then saying bye bye.

What does "damaged" mean? One of my relatives has serious fertility issues and cannot concieve. Her husband won't allow adoption because "If it isn't my blood i don't want it living in the house" - that GOD they can't have kids!


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## frog (Jun 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *diamond lil* 
Then I would tell her to just get a puppy. People with attitudes like that don't really deserve to be parents, IMO.

No dependent living thing should be left with her, IMO.

OP, I assume she has some redeeming qualities, since you're friends with her...right?


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## Cherry Alive (Mar 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *diamond lil* 
Then I would tell her to just get a puppy. People with attitudes like that don't really deserve to be parents, IMO.

NO. Just a beany baby. I've seen too many beautiful dogs end up in shelters and euthanized, because superficial people thought they were "too difficult" to care for after the cute puppy stage.

Those same people wouldn't dare be caught dead adopting a shelter dog, because it's either a) "Damaged" or b) "Mutts are stupider than pure bred dogs." (yes, I've actually heard this. The guy who said it had to be a "mutt" bc he was as dumb as a rock).

I volunteer for a dog rescue. Can you tell?


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## Gail2345 (Jun 27, 2008)

If she thinks that being pregnant will make her feel vulnerable, wait until she has a kid!

I don't know if there is anything that you can tell her--it sounds like she isn't going to be realistic about it.


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

We had a "damaged" shelter dog for 8 years. He was just, wonderful. We had to have him euthanised at 13 (not bad for such a big dog, he was a pyranese mountain dog x retriever x some other things, not fat, weighed 170lbs). I still miss him, 3 years on. My lovely boy


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *frog* 
Maybe she should adopt.

that's what my thought was, too.


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## That Is Nice (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *barefootpoetry* 







: Um, wow. That ticks me off even more than the original comment.

Maybe she should just be a nanny then.

Yeah, I just don't understand that kind of opinion about adoption. It's sad.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *MeepyCat* 
How old is this person? Are her thoughts about having a baby long-term ones or is she making plans for the near future?

I have heard many, many pre-teens and teenagers express these ideas.









:

Maybe that explains it...sometimes people who haven't really thought about birth or adoption, or who have no or little experience with children, can make prejudgements that later they'll find even they don't agree with.


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## Kitten (Jan 10, 2005)

Yikes! PLease don't encourage her to be a nanny either!

Maybe she's just really young yet. My mom says when I was a teenager I said if I ever had a boy I would flush him down the toilet (I didn't have a really great relationship with my brothers when I was younger). I have two boys now and while some strange things have been flushed around here, boys haven't been one of them.


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## thefragile7393 (Jun 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
I would respond by laughing for a LONG time and then saying bye bye.

What does "damaged" mean? One of my relatives has serious fertility issues and cannot concieve. Her husband won't allow adoption because "If it isn't my blood i don't want it living in the house" - that GOD they can't have kids!

I've had a friend with a husband like this too.....that attitude just irks me.

I don't know....I've obviously never met this friend and I don't wish to be too hard on her.....I don't know what's in her past that makes her feel that way about birth, etc. I can understand the remarks about birth and pregnancy.....IMO shallow maybe, but again, her past might reveal why she feels that way. Her remarks about children of adoption though, are telling.....she sounds as though some serious therapy is needed. Surrogacy does not, IMO, souond like a good idea for her.....that's a lot of stress for a surro mama, your friend and her husband. It sounds like she wants a child without really caring for it. Really, the silk plant/pet rock does sound rather good.


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## lunarmagic (Mar 10, 2006)

Surrogacy is very expensive, and very intensive. I know a couple people going through it - or going through it soon - and there are a LOT of things to consider... finding a surrogate, getting a contract drawn up (which, of course, you have to pay a lawyer for), getting your cycles synced, and then of course the physical effects of IVF which are not a piece of cake either.

Honestly from her attitude I think she doesn't know much about the surrogacy process and that when she does find out what's involved she'll change her mind. But that's just IMO.

Some people have no desire to go through pregnancy and childbirth. I don't really understand it, as I think it's part of the package (or should be... some people sadly never get their chance).


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## Ms. B (Jul 13, 2005)

All of the things that give her pause- pain, vulnerability, risk, less than perfect children- they are things you have to face as a parent. If she doesn't want to deal with these, she is going to have a terrible time as a parent.


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## LoveChild421 (Sep 10, 2004)

I would ask her what her motivation for wanting a baby if she wants nothing to do with all of these things that are so intimately connected to being a mother.

I would suggest she go to therapy or counseling of some sort. Maybe she has some emotional issues she needs to work through.

Maybe she should just get a pet for now.


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## Azuralea (Jan 29, 2007)

Hey, you guys, just ease up a little. You don't know this woman's history.

I know a woman who gets violently ill when she thinks of pregnancy and breastfeeding. The reason is a multi-year history of sexual abuse from childhood. She plans to eventually adopt but has already started going through significant counseling to get past the view that the kids available for adoption were "damaged" like her or how she would deal with a potential adoptive child who had been abused. It's been a really difficult road. Someday she will make a good mother to somebody.

We only have what the OP says here. It's not enough to decide this woman is shallow, horrible, a sad symptom of western society or what have you.


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## Belia (Dec 22, 2007)

I guess I would advocate more empathy for this person as well- at least she's being honest about her feelings and her shortcomings. In our society, it's hard for a woman to say "This whole pregnancy and parenting thing may not be for me."

I would just tell her that it must be hard to have such conflicting feelings. I would also agree with her that it can be unnerving to be vulnerable in all the ways that pregnancy AND parenthood makes us. (It sounds like she's focused on the pregnancy part- she may need a gentle reminder that parenthood is a whole new set of challenges and vulnerabilities). Finally, I would remind her that becoming a parent is a permanent decision that she does not have to make right now, and that perhaps talking with a professional who can help her sort through all of the issues and feelings would be beneficial.

I dunno- maybe because my LO hasn't arrived yet?!?!? But I can sort-of understand where she's coming from. This whole process has been terrifying. (But I agree that the adoption comment is icky).


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## JennTheMomma (Jun 19, 2008)

Doesn't sound like she is ready for a child yet. Maybe she just likes the idea, but doesn't really want a baby.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Azuralea* 
Hey, you guys, just ease up a little. You don't know this woman's history.

I know a woman who gets violently ill when she thinks of pregnancy and breastfeeding. The reason is a multi-year history of sexual abuse from childhood. She plans to eventually adopt but has already started going through significant counseling to get past the view that the kids available for adoption were "damaged" like her or how she would deal with a potential adoptive child who had been abused. It's been a really difficult road. Someday she will make a good mother to somebody.

We only have what the OP says here. It's not enough to decide this woman is shallow, horrible, a sad symptom of western society or what have you.

Since this is the OP's friend, I was assuming the OP was familiar with her past history and wouldn't have brought this up if her friend was an abuse survivor.
But, it is possible that they aren't that close.

Either way, I think this gal has a chance at being a good mother someday. But that day isn't soon and it isn't going to happen without her working at it.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Belia* 
I would just tell her that it must be hard to have such conflicting feelings. I would also agree with her that it can be unnerving to be vulnerable in all the ways that pregnancy AND parenthood makes us. (It sounds like she's focused on the pregnancy part- she may need a gentle reminder that parenthood is a whole new set of challenges and vulnerabilities). Finally, I would remind her that becoming a parent is a permanent decision that she does not have to make right now, and that perhaps talking with a professional who can help her sort through all of the issues and feelings would be beneficial.









:
Sorry about the snarkiness, I just couldn't think of what you could actually say. Belia came up with a great way of responding.








: Counseling is a part of surrogacy, right?


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## Nautical (Mar 4, 2008)

I would think before you could say anything you would have to know why she wanted a baby?

A pp was right in saying that if she thought pregnancy makes you vulnerable then she has another thing coming with kids.

From the op, I can't understand why she would want a baby in the first place. And, surrogacy and a wetnurse! Whoa expensive. She should start tending the money tree now.







:


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## Cherry Alive (Mar 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Azuralea* 
Hey, you guys, just ease up a little. You don't know this woman's history.

I know a woman who gets violently ill when she thinks of pregnancy and breastfeeding. The reason is a multi-year history of sexual abuse from childhood. She plans to eventually adopt but has already started going through significant counseling to get past the view that the kids available for adoption were "damaged" like her or how she would deal with a potential adoptive child who had been abused. It's been a really difficult road. Someday she will make a good mother to somebody.

We only have what the OP says here. It's not enough to decide this woman is shallow, horrible, a sad symptom of western society or what have you.

I don't think any of us would necessarily be knocking on the OP's friend until we read the comment that the friend said adoption was too risky bc adoptive children are "damaged." Now if the friend simply said she wanted a kid that was genetically her own, it'd be much more understanding, but her line of thinking demonstrates she isn't ready to have a kid. Children rarely ever turn out the way people expect-and it doesn't necessarily matter where they come from-especially if we are talking about a baby or toddler, but older kids can surprise you too.

On top of that, it's very offensive to call adoptive kids "damaged"-especially to those of us who have been adopted or who have it in our families. People who say crazy things like that are the "damaged" ones.

Other than that, I nothing against women who don't feel comfortable getting pregnant or giving birth. It is a lot to put your body through, and if you are super sensitive to hormones or depression it can be scary to think about how it can/will change you.

I also think it's not cool to look down on women who choose not to have children-period. It's a very personal choice (and sadly sometimes not even a choice). People should have kids bc they WANT them-not to "fit in" or bc someone pressured them to. Sadly, a lot of people do it for the wrong reasons, and the few women who make the choice of not doing it get looked down on and get labeled stupid things like "selfish," "weird" and even "damaged." If people really gave both sides of the coin more thought, I think there'd be a lot less child abuse.


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## JBaxter (May 1, 2005)

Wow .... Im with the group that says get a pet rock. If she wants a baby but doesnt want to be pregnant or birth the child what is she expecting when a child does arrive? They are messy, smelly loud little people. ( that have been my greatest source of joy in my whole life) As for damaged what will she do IF her surragote gives birth to a child with difficulties? Not take it?

She may be a candidate to be childless till she grows up a little


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## ryansma (Sep 6, 2006)

I have a neighbor/friend who says the same sort of things and IS a nanny. She had breast reduction surgery but thinks birth and breastfeeding are "gross."







But on the same hand she is ALWAYS commenting on what a great kid ds is and how he is the "smartest, sweetest boy" she knows. I just try to let them get a peek into why we do the things we do - homebirth, co sleeping, attachment parenting, etc and live by example. I think we are the first family she has ever known that does all these things and I take pride in explaining why and find hope in the fact that maybe it will somehow positively affect the children she cares for now. I think other posters have given you a lot of good things you can say or you can just explain what about pregnancy and birth were important to YOU and hope that she sees the positive affect on your life.


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## luckymamato2 (Jun 3, 2006)

.


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## luckymamato2 (Jun 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
I would respond by laughing for a LONG time and then saying bye bye.

What does "damaged" mean? One of my relatives has serious fertility issues and cannot concieve. Her husband won't allow adoption because "If it isn't my blood i don't want it living in the house" - that GOD they can't have kids!

That's terrible. I would insist on marital counseling and probably divorce if my husband had that attitude. She isn't his blood either - maybe he forgot that part.


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## luckymamato2 (Jun 3, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sapphire_chan* 







: Counseling is a part of surrogacy, right?

Yes you go through counseling for IVF/surrogacy.


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## Ellien C (Aug 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *johnsmom* 
I'd have trouble giving this friend helpful, non-judgemental advice.

I wouldn't! If you spend a lot of time on MDC, reading mothering mag and living in a GREAT hippie circle of friends, you can forge what it's like on the outside.

Think of all the horror stories we see about birth. Think about all the media descriptions of birth. What does birth look like on TV? What do your nurse friends tell you about it? How much do regular mothers one-up on how horrible and painful birth is. It's really not surprising that someone could feel that way. I was pretty scared of birth, too. I know I have a low pain tolerance.

I would encourage her to trust her body. Our bodies are capable of amazing things, when you think about it. How does skin heal itself? How DO we fight infection. This isn't a decision she has to make now and she may feel differently once she is in a different place in life.

I wasn't all that keen on the idea of becoming a "wife" myself. But luckily DH hit the nail on the head when he gave eloquent voice to my feelings. I can't remember all what he said, but it was something about the history of wives being property of men and all. It totally made me love him all the more and we did get married.


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## chandasz (Apr 13, 2005)

I hope she gets some help and therapy and can get over this self-hatred. Very sad.


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## MammaB21 (Oct 30, 2007)

Minus the adoption comment, I think her reaction can be quite typical in our society. Many women fear labor and delivery, are skeptical about breastfeeding, and don't know what to expect during pregnancy. Maybe she's just looking for alittle BTDT support from you. Use this opportunity to talk to her about natural child birth, and breastfeeding and all the benefits that come with it. Let her know how media portrayes birth is not completely accurate, and that she shouldn't expect a horrible and painfull experience.

As far as the adoption comment goes, I agree it could be a sign that she is ignorant on the issue, and probably not ready for kids in the first place. I would have a hard time not making a comment to her about how that type of talk is really offensive.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

I just thought i would mention that this person is my sister.

The responses have been really interesting. Personally, i feel that someone who chooses not to have children for these reasons has been cheated of something. I just kind of feel sorry for them, but i cant convince them otherwise becaus eit seems so obvious to me I dont know why she has these feelings, we both had the same parents. ...







: ...i also find the commment about adoption offensive, but didnt want to go there...


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## amydidit (Jan 21, 2005)

Wow. Well if someone is not intersted in being pregnant, giving birth, or breastfeeding I would *maybe* understand. Did she have something traumatic happen that perhaps makes her feel uncomfortable with such intimate things happening to her? I would NOT recommend a surrogate for such a selfish reason though. (I should clarify. I mean it's selfish if there are NOT any reasons such as abuse, etc. If she is physically capable of carrying a child and doesn't have any medical or emotional history that makes it a bad idea, then I would just say she should grow up or learn more about having a baby.)

My biggest red flag though is that she and her partner consider adopted children *damaged*. Wow. So how would they react if their child ever did something, or had something done, that made them see it as *damaged* too? No. If they have that feeling I would suggest they get a plant instead. People who have that attitude shouldn't be parents.


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## janasmama (Feb 8, 2005)

I think the OP'er mentioned the adoption comment to make it clear that she offered that suggestion already and her sister isn't o.k with adoption. I also think we might all agree that a lot of people are very different before having children and it's the reality of going through stages as parents that grow us. Things and ideas change after becoming educated and having children of our own to raise.

I like the idea that some pp'ers mentioned about the fact that maybe she has fears. Does your sister know very much about birth?

Midwifes are a great resource for things like this too b/c some offer family planning. I didn't know squat about birth and was very fearful of it until I had a midwife show me exactly what things were doing and what would happen. I also read some Mothering articles


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## whalemilk (Jul 11, 2008)

On the other hand, if she had said she wanted to adopt and that the kids weren't any more likely than average to have problems or issues, she'd get smacked down for that, too. I guess a woman can't win--not if she voices her honest feelings to a sister, at least, instead of just saying what's pre-approved by society.


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## Cherry Alive (Mar 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *whalemilk* 
On the other hand, if she had said she wanted to adopt and that the kids weren't any more likely than average to have problems or issues, she'd get smacked down for that, too. I guess a woman can't win--not if she voices her honest feelings to a sister, at least, instead of just saying what's pre-approved by society.

I'm having a real hard time believing that would happen here. Calling adopted children "damaged" is pretty crass-especially after talking about wanting to have children through other means than pregnancy. Some of us here are adopted and have adoption in our families. If OP's sister had simply said she just wanted a child from her genetic material, that'd be different, but to label an entire group of people like that is wrong.

And just because someone expresses their feelings honestly (regardless of whether they are related to you or not), doesn't make what they say right or even understandable. My grandfather is a racist. I can't say that just because he's "honest about his feelings" that it makes what he says any less disgusting and embarrassing to hear.

If my sister said anything like that, I'd probably just drop it, like OP, and I would not encourage her to talk about it unless the conversation really went anywhere. When close relatives start saying crazy things like that they usually are hiding things or have a few wires crossed. There's not much you can do to change their views unless they decide to open up about what's really going on.

BTW, now that we know she's your sister, OP, that changes things. Family dynamics can be very complicated.

Perhaps, she really doesn't want children and is making excuses up to appease family members she may feel would pressure her (not necessarily you, but maybe parents or other siblings). It's also possible that maybe she's hiding infertility (hers or her husband's). That kind of thing can make people feel *very* vulnerable-especially ones who come from large families or families who have strong beliefs in having lots of kids.

I had an aunt say odd things like your sister for years. It turned out she had her tubes tied at an early age, and didn't want certain members of our family to find out and judge her for it. I had another aunt (same family) who was infertile, but simply told people she didn't want anymore kids because she didn't want people to feel sorry for her or pressure her into getting fertility treatment.


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## sarahtdubb (Apr 30, 2007)

Being in labor and giving birth to my beautiful boy showed me that I was capable of SO MUCH MORE than I ever gave myself credit for. This was a great start to parenting, since it requires so much more of you than anything else you've ever done. No doubt you can be a great parent without going through the birth experience, but for me it did a lot for my self confidence!


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## Momma Aimee (Jul 8, 2003)

I won't go into her "reasons" however -- ADOPTION is always a great choice for anyone -- who doesn't feel able to be pregant, or is not medically able to be. Or for someone who doesn't want / can't be pregant AGAIN .....

Pregancy and labor and delievery do NOT a monther make.

I am not sure the matuity level of the lady in the OP -- however there are many woman (single, medical issues, etc) who choose to parent without birth and do an awsome job of it.

I have a dear freind who LOOKS totally healthy, is only 26, and active and so on -- she has a heart condition. She can not carry a child to term and give birth, most likely, and be ok herself. they aren't SURE but it is not a risk they want to take. She adn DH state openly they plan to exclusively adopt. she doesn't like to tell people her reason, so they said "it is jsut a choice we made" they get some grife about "have your own" and "ytou are young and healthy and married just do it" and many woman try to Tell A that pregancy is amazing (ir is) and birth wonderful (it is) ...but all in all THAT is not respectful fo the couple and my freind. YK?

AImee


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## HisBeautifulWife (Jun 18, 2008)

What is there to be judgmental about? I used to feel the same way.

Nothing anybody said changed how I felt until one day I realized that it didn't have to be as terrible as I thought it would be. I didn't let go of the FEAR (and that's all it is, fear) until I realized I had choices, and it would be as painful (or painless) as I made it.

I didn't have to look at it as a curse and feel annoyed that pregnancy was unfair- it took time for me to come to the conclusion on my own that everything is what you make it.

So what is there to say...nothing. Just listen and understand that everyone isn't like you.


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## _betsy_ (Jun 29, 2004)

I'd tell her she might not be ready to be a parent yet. Parenting is a lot about sacrifices, and she has to be willing to do some work to get the rewards. It's not about instant gratification, cute clothes and laughing babies all the time. There's poop and puke and feeding and crying and lots of stuff that isn't very glamourous.

Maybe she could get a cat.


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## Mom2baldie (Oct 29, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Azuralea* 
Hey, you guys, just ease up a little. You don't know this woman's history.

I know a woman who gets violently ill when she thinks of pregnancy and breastfeeding. The reason is a multi-year history of sexual abuse from childhood. She plans to eventually adopt but has already started going through significant counseling to get past the view that the kids available for adoption were "damaged" like her or how she would deal with a potential adoptive child who had been abused. It's been a really difficult road. Someday she will make a good mother to somebody.

We only have what the OP says here. It's not enough to decide this woman is shallow, horrible, a sad symptom of western society or what have you.

Completely agree with every bit of this.

Also, my births have been far from beautiful and empowering unfortunately (and they were NOT hospital inductions, the last was a home waterbirth), were completely devestating each time and it took me 2 years after deciding that I wanted another child after the last to get "brave" enough to become pregnant again and have to prepare myself for another birth.

No one here except the OP knows this person so the entire story isn't known. It is kind of pointless to be so judgemental.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mom2baldie* 
Completely agree with every bit of this.

Also, my births have been far from beautiful and empowering unfortunately (and they were NOT hospital inductions, the last was a home waterbirth), were completely devestating each time and it took me 2 years after deciding that I wanted another child after the last to get "brave" enough to become pregnant again and have to prepare myself for another birth.

No one here except the OP knows this person so the entire story isn't known. It is kind of pointless to be so judgemental.

Um.... I don't quite see how having traumatic birth experiences makes a good reason to try to encourage a woman who's scared that pregnancy will make her "vulnerable" to have kids.

She doesn't want to get pregnant, cool. She can become a mom in any number of ways and be terrific.

She and her partner think adopted kids are damaged? Not cool. And a sign that they'd have trouble handling things if the child they pay someone else to bear has problems.


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## accountclosed3 (Jun 13, 2006)

i would suggest that she examine why she 'wants' something. if you think you want a baby but do not want to care for a baby (in whatever that requires), then you do not want a baby.

it's as simple as that.


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## prothyraia (Feb 12, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *zoebird* 
i would suggest that she examine why she 'wants' something. if you think you want a baby but do not want to care for a baby (in whatever that requires), then you do not want a baby.

it's as simple as that.









:

Having kids around makes you MORE dependent than just being pregnant. You cannot do anything 'on your own' unless you have someone else to take over for you. Want to poop by yourself? Take a shower? Better have someone to hold the baby.


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## janasmama (Feb 8, 2005)

I get what you all are saying in correlation to being pregnant and actually having the child but I don't think that having a baby/child makes a person more dependent. It really depends on the persons personality and patience level how dependent they might be.

And hearing that a woman wants a baby but doesn't want to be pregnant makes me think that there is fear in the pain/unknown of childbirth.

But I have done many things (including poop







) and grown a huge amount since having children. I didn't plan my first and I probably never would have...but now that I have children I am a much different person.


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## MelKnee (Dec 5, 2001)

You should point out to her that children that share her DNA, whether she births them or a surrogate does, can also be "damaged". There are no guarantees with children regardless of their parentage.


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## janasmama (Feb 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MelKnee* 
You should point out to her that children that share her DNA, whether she births them or a surrogate does, can also be "damaged". There are no guarantees with children regardless of their parentage.

This is so true...thanks for pointing that out. We all have some kind of hereditary issues that may even be unknown. I really like living by the idea that there are no guarantees in life. period.


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

Everyone please remember that we are talking about a real person with real feelings, who is deserving of respect, if not for her opinions, then for her personhood.









Personally, I have known women who hated pregnancy and birth, and didn't much like the squishy icky newborn phase, who were still good mothers, and good people. I've never known anyone who sought out a surrogate or a wetnurse because of their aversions (though I have known those who used early epidurals and bottlefed because of them), but given our cultural hatred of women and biological functions and especially birth, it doesn't surprise me much that some women would contemplate that.


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## bri276 (Mar 24, 2005)

great.

tell her to have fun spending upwards of 30K (surrogacy ain't cheap) to avoid one of life's most beautiful experiences, and hope that her baby isn't too damaged for her (and that it doesn't mess up her life, house, make her dependent or vulnerable).

sounds like healthy parenting to me!


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## whalemilk (Jul 11, 2008)

So is it necessary to not only be willing to go through childbirth but also to think it's "one of life's most beautiful experiences" in order to be worthy of motherhood? I mean seriously. I do unpleasant things knowing that the outcome is worthwhile. I feel no poetry about childbirth, but it's probably the easiest way to get a baby. I think it's really oppressive to play it up as a "beautiful experience" and mock women who differ. Same thing with breastfeeding. I HATE breastfeeding. I did it because it was worthwhile, not because it made me think of dewdrops and daffodils.


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## wbg (Mar 28, 2008)

My question to her would be: Do you know that babies grow up?

I too believe that we should respect the fact that everyone is entitled to their life and how they choose to live it. Not everyone is meant to give birth or find the experience as empowering and magical as most people on this forum do. So I respect that she is honest enough to acknowledge who she is. I have met many women who have children and really do not enjoy it or seem to want to be around them, yet they keep having more children.

However my concern is the word baby! Not family. It sounds like she is only dealing with the immediate issues. Labour and birth are so short compared to a lifetime of being a family. She should ask herself if she feels ready for the unknown. You cannot predict how your family will grow and it sounds like she wants to control everything. Not possible when raising children and building a family!

As for her adoption comment.....I can't comment on that without being harsh and judgemental and since I do not know her I will try and ignore that, rather than write the long and mean rant that is going through my head!


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## Arwyn (Sep 9, 2004)

Closing for moderator review. Thanks for your patience.


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