# Disapointed with AP



## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

*


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## dreadmama (Jan 8, 2004)

I'm so sorry you are going through this! As a single mother myself (fyi- you may get some additional support from the single mamas forum!) I know how important getting even a few minutes to yourself can be!

I've had to set some limits with my daughter's breastfeeding... like at 7 months she began sleeping in her own crib! She loves her bed, and I love the fact that she isn't waking me up every couple of hours to nurse for a minute! I know, I'm not AP enough for many! But it works for us. I think ultimately that is what AP is about, finding what works for the whole family, not just the parent or the child.

I don't think there is anything wrong with setting boundaries and guiding your son. I don't think you have to throw out all of the AP strategies just because some of it isn't going as planned. Keep in mind that being 4 can be a difficult age, and maybe he is just going through a rough patch.

I would find a friend or family member to watch your son while you go to a cafe and treat yourself to your favorite coffee concoction and write down what isn't working and what you think needs to change. Then you can figure out what you and your son need to do to get there. If his breastfeeding etiquitte is out of control, then maybe setting some boundaries, getting a nursing necklace, or even begin weaning him is in order.

Good luck!

Karen


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## scorpioqueen (Apr 11, 2004)

This is why I look at AP as child lead with parental guidence









Deanna


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## L.J. (Nov 20, 2001)

My friend & I have been discussing this lately.

For me, it's not so much the AP that's the problem, but I think I've allowed things to go too far, been a little too lenient about somethings and haven't set some clear boundaries where I need to with my oldest especially.

My interpretation of AP is that you are there for your child.

What I have done with my kids has been to be there for them.....but then I've also allowed them a little too much free reign and not been forceful about certain issues that are important. To me, that has nothing to do with AP. It has to do with me giving too much freedom where it wasn't necessary.

So, now I'm dealing with some difficult behaviours, which I admit, I am partly at fault and I am trying to make changes in a way that is respectful to both of us. It's a constant effort these days.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

At first AP is all giving and the baby all receiving but it is important for you to provide structure and discipline for your son as well. He needs to learn that other people have rights, too.

I can't imagine how challenging it is for a single parent to do the job of two adults. I think you're in a special circumstance and you shouldn't be shy about asking for help.

Also, 4YO's are inherently a bit of a challenge. I had a 4yo nursling and I was happy when he decided to wean.

Debra Baker


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

Thanks mothers









I think I've been afraid of the word "boundaries" because it never made sense to me the to impose random rules on children. I thought they would cause struggles and resentment. Now I'm the one who's resented.

I believe though I forgot I am limited and I was dishonest to my child pretending I didn't have limits. Children do need to know our limits or we they get a wrong expectation about our roles and about what it's right to do.

I also think I created a wrong expectation about my child too.


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## Colorful~Mama (Feb 20, 2003)

agreeing with the others who've posted.

i was a single mom with my first, now almost 15 from the time she was 3mos till she was almost 6. I met my now dh then and had two more babies with him.

To me, attached parenting doesn't mean letting your child make all the rules and become a tyrant. It means listening to your childs cues and letting them lead regarding timing, but it doesn't mean letting your child have his way all the time. If you are feeling like your child is out of control and you're resenting him then i'm guessing its time to change things in your home. Personal responsibility and all that.

i've never been 'disappointed' with AP because I am what determines what happens in our house, not a book or a definition or anything like that. Sometimes i've been disappointed in how i've parented, or a decision i've made and have had to change things.

We do cosleep. We also have started some sleep training with our son - crying in arms and not bfing at night to try to get him to sleep longer stretches. I babywear, but i also happily use my stroller. We use only gentle discipline but that doens't mean i'm not VERY firm about what is and isn't ok or that we dont' leave someplace if my kids is not behaving well or that she won't have consequences for her actions if she does something she shouldn't have done.

I think anyone who practices attached parenting will tell you that if you're resenting breastfeeding and find its become "ugly" then indeed its time to wean - even if you'd hoped for child led weaning. At 4 you've certainly done a wonderful job nursing your son - if you can't stand it anymore, then end it.

Quote:

Now he's 4 and he has horrible teeth, he's not specially smart, I was far more advanced than him at his age, and he's over demandind. He created expectations I can't keep with.
His teeth have nothing to do with breastfeeding. If he's brushing, flossing and eating properly as well as nursing then his teeth would be fine. Are you taking him to a dentist? if you're concerned about his teeth - and you think you need to wean. then wean.

As for not being 'especially smart'... sigh... mama i think you need to re-evaluate. I'm sure your child is perfect the way he is . Comparing him to you at his age or anyone else just isnt' healthy for either of you. if you're concerned about his developement maybe get him involved in some outside activities so you have others to help you gain perspective?
Maybe it is not HIS expectations, but yours that need to change. If you've let him decide what happens in your home and now you're tired of keeping up with it... then you need to change the rules. Don't resent the child - you've created him and the world he lives in. If things aren't going the way you'd like then you as the parent are the one who has to change things.

as for spending time alone without him.... is this new? have you done it before? does he go to playgroups, spend time with others etc? start slowly maybe leaving him with a babysitter for an hour. or at sunday school for an hour in the kids area if you have one? If its just you and he all the time then you are his friend and he wants to play with you. He's only 4 - he doesn't understand why you'd not want to play with him and i'm sure his feelings are hurt. Does he have friends to play with?

I hope this was not a "patronizing sermon' as that wasn't my intention. I doubt you'll find too many mamas here on mothering who were 'deeply disappointed' in attachment parenting. Maybe diappointed in how we've implemented it sometimes, but never in the theories themselves.

hang in there

barb


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## Evergreen (Nov 6, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leonor*

I think I've been afraid of the word "boundaries" because it never made sense to me the to impose random rules on children. I thought they would cause struggles and resentment. Now I'm the one who's resented.

I believe though I forgot I am limited and I was dishonest to my child pretending I didn't have limits. Children do need to know our limits or we they get a wrong expectation about our roles and about what it's right to do.


Yes!









Just because you practice Attachment Parenting doesn't mean you can forget about the "parenting" part. We need to set boundries for our children. It doesn't mean screaming "No! Don't touch!" everytime they look at a nick nack, but _everyone_ has rules that they need to follow.

It is so awesome that you are continuing to nurse your 4 year old! However, just because weaning may be child-led, doesn't mean it can't be parent-involved. After all, mama, it is your body, and he is old enough to understand that breastfeeding is a two person relationship.

You don't have to become super-strict all of a sudden, and it will take some getting used to, but eventually he will realize what issues he can and can not overstep with you.

I am sorry you feel he doesn't trust you, but it would probably be worse if you hadn't practiced AP. I think all kids like to test and see if parents were lying. When I was four, my mother explained to me how pepper would make one sneeze should he inhale it. I didn't know whether to beleive it or not, after all I was only a child and had no experiance with pepper snorting. So I sniffed up a big handful when she wasn't looking. Ugh! It was terrible. My mother could have said "See, told ya!" or laughed at me or punished me, but instead she held me and tried to help get the pepper out of my nose.

I think you may be disapointed in AP now, but in the long run it is an excellent parenting style.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I can't imagine how hard it must be to be a single parent.

With that said, don't blame AP. How do you know you've been doing it properly? Any method applied improperly or ineffectively is not going to meet your expectations.

Teeth and IQ have nothing to do with it.

I personally don't think a 4 year old should necessarily be happy with being sent off to his room to play. But obviously there's more to it than just that.

There's definitely not enough info here for a "full diagnosis", which I'm sure you are not interested in, and which I don't feel in any position to give. However, I just want to defend AP. Perhaps what you are doing is not AP. Please don't throw away the whole philosophy, or blame your difficulties on AP. Parenting is always hard work, and both children and parents are individuals.

I hope you find some solutions to bring some joy back into your parenting.


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

I think that "AP" is fairly easy to follow the first year. Baby's Needs = Baby's Wants.

As the child becomes older things become more confusing. As a parent you need to distinguish between what a child *wants* and what a child *needs*, because they are no longer the same.

I also think it is important to start teaching our children in their toddler years that others (like Mom) have needs too. When a baby needs something, Mom's needs often get put on hold, but as a child gets older they can be taught to be empathetic and understand that you have needs too. Sometimes your needs come first or a compromise must be found between your needs and your child's needs.

For example with nursing, your child needs to nurse and it's great you are continuing to fulfill that need. However, there is nothing wrong with putting some boundaries on nursing so that Mom's needs get met too. No twiddling the other nipple may be your need, or only nursing at certain times during the day.

Does that make sense?


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

You sound really burnt out and fed up. I can only sympathize with how difficult it must be to parent alone, I cannot imagine it. Does your son have any preschool program or camp that he attends? I hear the voice of a mama who needs a much-needed break.

AP is not something that I do for my daughter, it is something I do for myself AND my daughter. That's an important distinction: if I felt I was doing it all "for her", I would feel like a martyr. AP is as much for my bonding as it is for hers. But as you already said, you may have confused attachment with no boundaries and boundaries are vital. They model for children what is appropriate and acceptable and what is not. If your child has no boundaries, how will they know to impose them on others? For example, would you tell your child that it is okay if they have a friend who speaks to him in an unkind way, that dictates the way play is going to go, that tells him how and if he can interact? Of course not, you would want your child to speak up for himself and play with someone who is willing to be cooperative with him. If he has not been taught that there are boundaries, he can't impose them in his own social interactions. The same analogy is true in reverse: would you want your son to be the one who is unwilling to be flexible with his peers? That could lead to a very lonely life.

I agree in a sense with what Piglet wrote, this is not about the failure of AP. I think that boundaries are loving. I think that discipline is loving. I don't think that punishment and random (unpredictable) restrictions are loving. I don't think that being a martyr is loving, I think it's guilt producing. That's not to say that any AP mama doesn't devote a great deal of herself to her children, sure they do. But if it's not done within the confines of boundaries then resentment is sure to follow.

Your son is at the age where you can begin to really reason with him. It takes a great deal of time and effort, it is not easy. I can see the daily struggle on my daughter's face when she is trying hard to keep it together instead of resorting to a tantrum. I have a very emotional child, she is 10 times more likely to have a hissy fit than to try to deal with frustration and disappointment. But very slowly I am seeing the fruits of my labor, she is able to pull herself out of tantrums quicker and she I am finally able to reason with her before she goes over the edge.

You need a break mama. A daily break. I highly recommend yoga, it is incredibly centering.

Oh, and I think that it can be very intimidating on these boards to see how others parent and compare to yourself. Your situation is very different, every situation is different. I don't spend hours on the floor playing with my daughter. I am not a homeschooler, never want to be. My daughter is in preschool and she has activities besides that. I sometimes read these boards and I'm in absolute amazement that someone with 2,3,4 or even more kids is homeschooling - I just could never do that and I don't feel the least bit guilty about it. If I was with my child that much I wouldn't be able to stand it. Does that make me a bad mother? I don't think so, I think it makes me a different mother, the kind I need to be. Not that I don't think those that homeschool are amazing, it just is something that I would never have any desire to do.


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## Leatherette (Mar 4, 2003)

I wrote a long post which I decided was advice (sermon?) rather than talking about disappointment with AP. So that's gone, and here's this:

I was disappointed when I was getting no sleep in the co-sleeping situation with my son. We tweaked it so he goes to sleep in his own bed with one of us with him, and comes into bed whenever he wakes up at night. Not co-sleeping to the letter, but much happier for all.

I am disappointed in AP as a movement when I see moms who lecture others about AP "practices" and have miserable kids whose needs are not being met. The moms get caught up in the outward appearances and the philosophical, talking about organic food and not vaxing incessantly while their kids are unable to play with others and unhappy. They need to get down on the floor and teach their kid to play nicely, not brag about how AP they are. Not that this is AP's "fault", but as with any philosophy or practice, there are going to be people who just totally don't get it, and think they do.

L.


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

First of all, thanks everyone.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dotcommama*
For example with nursing, your child needs to nurse and it's great you are continuing to fulfill that need. However, there is nothing wrong with putting some boundaries on nursing so that Mom's needs get met too. No twiddling the other nipple may be your need, or only nursing at certain times during the day.

Does that make sense?

The problem is as my kid is not used to boundaries, he takes "no" too much to heart or other times he just laughs and doesn't take me seriously. And then I feel I have no choice but to escalate in coercion so he listens.

I do want him to respect nursing boundaries. I tried to give alternatives he can hold instead of twiddling, but it never worked, he doesn't want to play with those, he wants the nipple. If I say for instance "no twiddling or I won't nurse you" he touches to test me and then if I take the breast away he cries. And when he cries he's like a newborn crying. He doesn't stop!
If I say "breast only for sleep time or when you get hurt" he says he's sleepy when he's not or hurts himsellf on purpose to have the breast!

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gr8flmom*
I think all kids like to test and see if parents were lying. When I was four, my mother explained to me how pepper would make one sneeze should he inhale it. I didn't know whether to beleive it or not, after all I was only a child and had no experiance with pepper snorting. So I sniffed up a big handful when she wasn't looking. Ugh! It was terrible. My mother could have said "See, told ya!" or laughed at me or punished me, but instead she held me and tried to help get the pepper out of my nose.

I used to be the kind of mother who would explore the pepper with him, give him a tiny bit to taste or smell so he would satisfy his curiosity and not get hurt. If he was interested in something I would try to explore it safely with him. We had great times like this and it's how I believe children learn best.

But I followed his lead all the time, and I would feel guilty about pursuing my interests because he wasn't happy alone, and didn't trust other people to take care of him and when I did he got hurt. Now I can't do it anymore because he orders me around.

Kids grow too fast, when you learn how to take care of the baby, he's already a toddler, when you learn to take care of the toddler... you get the picture.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I have so ever been where you are, Leonor. And, my child is only 3! To me, it sounds like you need to start moving in a direction where both you and your child have your needs met more equally. I would start by making prioritized a mental list of the things that need to change. Then get some help with the first issue! Post here or talk to friends – and your child is old enough to be involved as well. Then, gradually start to change the first thing, then move on to the next one. So, what would you like to see changed first?


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leatherette*
I am disappointed in AP as a movement when I see moms who lecture others about AP "practices" and have miserable kids whose needs are not being met. The moms get caught up in the outward appearances and the philosophical, talking about organic food and not vaxing incessantly while their kids are unable to play with others and unhappy. They need to get down on the floor and teach their kid to play nicely, not brag about how AP they are. Not that this is AP's "fault", but as with any philosophy or practice, there are going to be people who just totally don't get it, and think they do.

I know what you mean, people get lost in debate. Or maybe they are unable to control certain aspects in their lives and try control the more easily controlable, like the food and the vaccines.

By the way, my kid never hurt another kid, it's actually impressive how social he is with kids he meets, he actually goes to them and says "Hello" and makes up games, even if he's shy and we don't socialise that much.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leonor*
A baby doesn't know best, but a 4 year old crying deeply offended like it's the end of the world if I don't breastfeed him right away, soon he wakes up? This is too much to put up with!









I can feel some of your pain. I don't have this issue, in particular, but especially when my daughter was four, I was so defeated. I felt like she had absolutely no empathy or consideration for me, and it was so hard. Especially when I'm trying to offer her choices and be respectful of her needs most of the time. I fail at times, and it seems like that is all that counts with her.

It's better since she is 5, but I still have long difficult periods where everything is my fault, and she'd just as soon scream at me as say anything.

One thing I just wanted to add is that not setting boundaries is not respecting the needs of your children. I think most practioners of AP agree that boundaries that respect a child's developmental growth are necessary and healthy. I think some people equate my failure to set proper boundaries as AP parenting, and it's not. I just have a hard time on some fronts and with certain aspects of parenting. There is always a fine line for me and I don't know exactly where to draw it, and my needs play a big part too.

And, of course, children's personalities are so different. It's difficult when you feel like people are telling you to do this or that, or expressing surprise at how you parent when they are just looking at the situation from the outside.

Anyway, just wanted to chime in with the others to let you know you are not alone.


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## USAmma (Nov 29, 2001)

I think a lot of AP parents are so dedicated to the security and bonding of their babies that they are unable to carve out some personal space for themselves. It's hard being on duty 24/7, I imagine more so as a single mom.

I learned the lesson after getting burned out and resentful towards my oldest dd, and now find ways to have some ME time to recharge my batteries so I can have more energy for my kids. When I'm not getting enough time for myself, I start getting short tempered and impatient. I have a membership to the local YMCA and sometimes on a really bad day I will just pack the girls up and drop them off in childcare for 30 min. so I can burn off steam in the fitness center.

Some parenting classes might be useful for you, perhaps some books on disclipline. I like Dr. Sears Discipline Book a lot. It does say to be firm and set boundaries, that all kids *need* boundaries in order to feel secure.

With my oldest I would set aside everything in order to carry her, nap with her, etc. With my youngest it's like, okay baby I need to have a cup of tea, you can sit in your bouncy seat for 5 min. and it's not going to kill you, and Abi (3yo) you can go and play with your ponies for 5 min. and when mommy's done with her tea she'll play with you and baby. But if I don't have my cup of tea and take a breather it's going to affect all three of us.

Darshani


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## captain optimism (Jan 2, 2003)

My first thought on reading your post was, "Is that attachment parenting she's describing?"







: Because it sounded like you were expecting much more mature behavior from your four year old than seems reasonable to me, and I thought that attachment parenting was supposed to promote knowledge of development. After all, it's normal for four year olds to challenge their parents' reasoning and not to obey requests. It's not a sign of failed parenting, just of where your child is developmentally.

When I went to the Attachment Parenting International Website, however, I did find a shortcoming of their view of AP that I didn't expect.







: API has ideals for infants and ideals for school-age children. But what about that incredibly difficult toddler to preschool period? It's not a great thing to do everything your toddler or preschooler asks, as developmentally speaking, most toddlers and preschoolers are working on the exploration of boundaries. They want to know when you will say yes and when you will say no. On the other hand, a four year old isn't a "school-aged" child. (Ah, I know you don't like school anyway!







)

Anyway, I think what would be helpful for you is to discuss your son's behavior with other moms of three and four year olds. Every child develops empathy at a different age. Here on this board I have seen even more variation than I have in my daily life in the community. (Probably because people come here to discuss variation from their expectations!)

I am finding that my son's developmental pattern at 17 months isn't quite like mine. At his age I walked indepedendently and talked fluently. I worry about it a little. People have reminded me that
1) he is not my clone, so he's not genetically exactly like me;
2) he is a boy, and boys develop differently;
3) just because he isn't doing something now doesn't mean he won't do it later.

This certainly applies to you! Your son is a separate person! He isn't going to ever be exactly like you were at any age. That's good! At least, I think it's good. I want my son to be a different person. It would be so boring and so embarassing to raise myself!

I read your blog from the link in your signature.
Are you describing yourself in your hypothetical entry? Did your ex-boyfriend abuse your son when you left the house? If that really happened, then it's not surprising that your son is clingy and wants to nurse first thing every day and doesn't want you to leave the room.

I am really sorry, Leonor. Your family suffered a trauma there.







That kind of experience could affect your son's development, as well. I hope you are getting real life support now.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I just wanted to add that beginning to set boundaries is definitely something you must do. I've even set some boundaries for my 2 year old about nursing.

But the thing is, we've been working on boundaries and limits for a long time. AND I have been as close to 100% consistent as I can expect of myself.

When I say I don't think it's abnormal for your son to dissolve into tears b/c you ask him to play by himself, I'm taking into account what he is used to and has been taught up until then. It's not abnormal to ask him to play alone if this is something that he is used to, kwim?

What I'm trying to say is that you have a tough road ahead, and it is going to be very hard for your son to have the conditions of his world changed. But from what you have written, it sounds like you are lacking in the boundaries/limits area, so that is probably something you should work on. Just be easy on your son and recognize that this will all seem very "unfair" to him at first. Make sure you always validate his feelings, empathize with his feelings - without changing your stance on the issue that caused him to have those feelings.

One wise thing my mother told me is that consistency is KEY to discipline. I have found this to be true thus far with my DD.

Good luck to you!!


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## nomadmom (Mar 30, 2003)

Sending you a pm.


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

Everybody agrees, setting boundaries, but how does one does that? Do you leave your kid crying for hours for the sake of consistence. Because mine doesn't break, he will cry and cry and cry. Am I going to CIO now he's 4?


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Gr8flmom*
When I was four, my mother explained to me how pepper would make one sneeze should he inhale it. I didn't know whether to beleive it or not, after all I was only a child and had no experiance with pepper snorting. So I sniffed up a big handful when she wasn't looking. Ugh! It was terrible. My mother could have said "See, told ya!" or laughed at me or punished me, but instead she held me and tried to help get the pepper out of my nose.

I've just been







this thread but I wanted to say I teared up when I read that. Maybe I'm hormonal but I jsut could see it all in my mind's eye and it made me all weepy.







Thanks for sharing that. Back to







for me.


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## Satori (Jan 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leonor*
Everybody agrees, setting boundaries, but how does one does that? Do you leave your kid crying for hours for the sake of consistence. Because mine doesn't break, he will cry and cry and cry. Am I going to CIO now he's 4?


Believe it or not they do stop! DD threw some serious tantrums when I finally reached the breaking point about a month ago and started being more consistent and oh we had some long tantrums. If it was nursing I'd hold her while she screamed, if it was because I wouldn't replace a toy she broke (then demanded I buy a new on immediately!) I would let her have her fit and walk away and tell her I would be more then happy to discuss it when she can talk to me with out yelling or screaming (or hitting). At first she would follow me around the house in her tirade and dropping on the floor when ever I stopped for a moment, now she goes to the bedroom to have a cow then comes out a min to two later much more composed and able to discuss it. A few times I got so frustrated I decided to try a tactic a friend used with her kid, she gave pointers on how to give a proper tantrum! "Is that the best you can do? Come on! I know you can yell louder! Yeah! That's it! kick the floor harder!" Believe it or not, they may just start laughing at you and stop the fit







You have to be really animated and into it and most of all... try not to laugh to hard while your doing it







dd stopped a lot of tantrums when she realized 1) they don't work around here and 2) mommy was having to much fun with them! (well that's what she thought!)

I know its hard but try to carve out some time to yourself too, I was loosing it, and decided that giving her ALL my energy was no longer an option, she's been sucking the life out of me since she was conceived and now its time for ME before I self destruct myself. I've been in a 4 yr depression and I've had enough! I hadn't done much of anything for myself, not even eating! (which leads to my current health issues) so I've picked 3 things that I used to do pre child and I'm doing them and if dd doesn't like it, well... she better learn to at least put up with it! I chose, burning incense, listening to alt music (yanni, deep forest, clanned ect) and reading. I cant believe how much better I feel! Just 1 hour a day and I'm actually getting the entire house clean in that time and ENJOYING it. At first dd did NOT like the music and wanted her kiddy music at which point I was happy to tell her go to the bedroom to listen to it, this is MOMMY TIME







Yesterday and today I actually caught her dancing to MY music







I know its a lot and it just seems so overwhelming but with persistence it can be done







I think we need to start a support group for us wimpy mommy's who have had enough and aren't going to take it anymore! lol!


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## Dar (Apr 12, 2002)

I don't think you should just let him cry and cry.

The thing is, if your baby or toddler asks to nurse and you say, "Okay, we'll nurse as soon as I'm done making the eggs" or "drinking my drink" or "peeing" or whatever, that's a short enough time that most kids are okay with that, and they get a little practice thinking about the idea that mom has needs and wants, too. With Rain, if she seriously needed to nurse right then we usually could, but usually she was okay with waiting. As she got older she was able to understand more and be more considerate - I really think that's what it is, considering other people. At four she wasn't always great at it - four year olds aren't generally known for their consideration, it's pretty normal for them to want things their own way a good bit of the time - but she understood the concept, anyway.

So, assuming that your son never had those kinds of experiences, that's where I'd start. Not "no nursing now" but "nursing after ___", starting with something that lasts a minute or two and then working upwards. The same with time for yourself - start small and work upwards. I used to go to Rain before calling anyone on the phone, warn her that I was going to do it, ask what she needed, if anything, so that I could have a few uninterupted minutes - not a half hour, not even fifteen minutes, to start with - maybe 5. And maybe we'd nurse first and then turn on a video, or I'd set up a a basin of soapy water so she could do "dishes", or whatever.

So start small, and thank him afterwards. Don't try to break him, try to be his partner, and let him be yours. One of the things that he may be missing is the feeling that he's a competent and capable person - that's an important thing for people to have.

Dar


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

When we make new boundaries we always approach it slowly. Yes, sometimes I get overwhelmed with several different things that aren't working for the family but I still take one issue at a time. And, it's only fair to take responsibility for allowing yourself to get in such a negative place where you're needs are so far from being met. It's absolutely true that you can't expect your child to handle a huge change in how you "discipline".

Does the main boundary that you need involve mostly breastfeeding? Start with that then&#8230;slowly. Like Dar said, begin with a few minutes and move up from there. Also, give your child some notice and involve him in the process.

We don't have many boundaries either. We did start with one or two when Aya was 18 months and then added on an "as need" basis. Honestly, we probably only have about 10. Most are just not necessary because either DC doesn't have the impulse in the first place and/or I can be flexible about allowing it.

When it comes time to set a new boundary, I really think about *why*, *what* and *how much* I need and then I try to be realistic about what I can be consistent with. I also think of any possible compromises either of us could make. Then, I discuss with DC about what I'm feeling and develop a plan for the future. Also, I think you may want to start implementing these things during the best time of day for your child. Set him up for success - expect the best; start with the easy stuff and wade in the success for a few days before moving forward.

Also, I highly recommend posting a separate thread to get some help with the first change that you decide to take. If it's twiddling, post in the BFing forum about how to discourage twiddling. Also, keep in mind that your child's temperament is a huge factor. My DC did/does not handle gradual weaning well at all. Honestly, she responds better to 'cold-turkey' type weaning. When it comes time for her to stop twiddling, we'll discuss it ahead of time, set a date, make a little celebration and that will be it. It's so important that you factor your child's personality into the equation&#8230;

On that note, I also don't think AP is to blame (although, I can totally understand the feeling). I think we are responsible for how we evaluate a parenting strategy and how we adapt it to fit our lives. Our children are individuals and we have our own strengths as parents. We must incorporate these things into our discipline/parenting styles and then alter them when it's obviously not working.


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leonor*
Am I going to CIO now he's 4?

I don't think "AP" is about making your child happy all the time, preventing them from ever having a negative emotion or giving in to their every whim to prevent a tantrum and/or make them happy. There is a *huge* difference between CIO (letting your infant/child cry _alone_ until they stop) and allowing your child to cry in disappointment/sadness/anger while you are comforting them, but _not_ giving in to them.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leonor*
. . .mine doesn't break, he will cry and cry and cry.

Do you usually give him what he wants when he cries or tantrums? If so, and I don't mean this in an accusatory way, that may be why he doesn't stop crying easily. He may have learned that if he just keeps crying and freaking out Mom will give him what he wants. I think a four year old is pretty capable of making this connection. If that's not it, maybe he's just a really intense child and his emotions really overwhelm him.

How would I go about setting up a boundary? Let's take the twiddling. I would sit my child down and explain that twiddling is uncomfortable for me and that I love to nurse him, but if he twiddles we will end the session. I would talk about this at a neutral time, not right when he sits down to nurse.

So then the next time he's ready to nurse I would give him a gentle reminder, "Remember, no twiddling." I would probably put my hand over the un-used breast while he is nursing to prevent temptation. If starts to twiddle I'd pull him off the breast and remind him again that it hurts Mom when he does that so you are ending the nursing session.

Obviously this is where your child is going to be very upset. Allow him to cry, scream, whatever he needs to do. Be there for him, if he wants your comfort, by hugging him or petting his head, whatever he likes. Stay calm and speak calmly to him - "I know you are angry because. . . ." You can even give him suggestions for how to express his emotions. Tell him he can stomp his feet, hit a pillow, yell, "I'm angry!" And I would also offer again, "If you are ready to nurse without twiddling I'm right here."

This isn't making him CIO. You are not forcing him to be alone in a dark room and deal with these intense emotions by himself. You are not abandoning him so that he can "learn to comfort himself" or be more independent.

Sometimes kids are going to be upset or frustrated or angry or disappointed or. . . and they need to release these emotions by crying. It's okay and it's not your job to stop him from ever feeling these emotions. Your job is to calmly help him learn to express and handle them.

Maybe the first time he will cry for a long period of time, but if you don't give in, and remain loving and gentle with him and most of all consistently follow the no twiddling rule. He will get it. Maybe it will be after a few difficult days, but it will be worth it if you can then nurse him without wanting to scream each day - kwim?


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## Leatherette (Mar 4, 2003)

Exactly what Dotcommama just said.

L.


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## dreadmama (Jan 8, 2004)

It can be helpful to help your child express his emotions. Like if he wants to nurse or something and you have to say no... and he starts a fit... you can say wtih lots of emotion: "Wow, you are really ANGRY! You really wanted to nurse now, but I'm sorry, you can't do it right now. Mommy needs to do ____ and it isn't time for nursing. I know you really want to do it, and I wish you could, but you can't!" You get the idea. Repeating this over and over really works. Once children realize that you understand how they feel, but it won't change anything, they feel better. They have been heard and understood, and you put a label/word on their emotions! What a relief to know that what they are feeling is normal!

Give it some time. No, I wouldn't let him cry and cry for a long time. Try giving him words to express his emotions, hold him, and explain to him why he can't do whatever it is he wants.

Good luck,

Karen


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Some excellent advice here. ITA with dotcommama and dreadmama.









It's not CIO if you are sympathetic and responsive to their feelings. You can do this and not change your stance on the main issue one bit.


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## Marg of Arabia (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:

First of all, I don't think that AP is necessarily something you do "right" or "wrong." I think if a person subscribes to AP ideas, they pretty much do what works for them. I hate to see AP termed as a set of rules you have to follow and do "right," because I don't think it's so and I also think it turns off a lot of people who do some "AP" things but not others. (And in my lurking, pre-registered days I saw lots of discussions about what AP "is" and "isn't" in terms of doing this and not doing that.)
EXACTLY! DVMomma!


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

There is definitely a difference between dealing with a 4 YO and an infant. While no one (here) will advocate letting an infant cry, I think many of us are OK with leaving a child to cry because they are angry. This isn't, at least in my mind, CIO. It is allowing him a way to express he emotions that is non-violent and non-harmful (well, maybe to your ears). My 4 YO is going through a similar phase where he will wail if told "no" or, more likely, "not now". But it is getting better as he realizes that crying is not going to change my answer.

If I were you, I think I would approach it this way. Chose one area that you want to establish a boundry in. Given your first post, this may be breastfeeding, leaning towards weaning. Tell him in advance that you will be setting a new rule, because he's old enough to understand this. Be gentle, but firm about it. If he cries, let him. If you can, stay near him, but don't engage with him while he is crying. Read the paper (well, pretend), or whatever. Be there, but don't encourage him with attention. Realize that this is a long road and it won't happen overnight. Realize that he will test this new idea. My friend likened it to a soda machine. If all of a sudden it doesn't give you your soda after you give it money, what do you do? You probably don't just shrug and walk away. You probably shake it, maybe kick it. Your son will do this too. In fact, I have been known to walk away from a tantrum from my son actually reciting "coke machine, coke machine" over and over, like a mantra. Once he has started accepting boundries in one area, then chose the next one and go from there.

I also want to echo what others have said about making sure that you have the opportunity to care for yourself. I cannot imagine how hard it is to get everything done as a single parent, and I don't know about your work situation or how your life flows. But I think you need to move taking care of yourself up on your priority list. Maybe find time to go for a walk? Or something to recharge your batteries each day. It sounds like you really need some self time, so please find a way to get it.


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dvmomma*
Are you sure your son actually distrusts you, or is he just at an age where it doesn't matter what you say, he has to experience it for himself in order to learn it? I know that kids go through phases like that, and some are hard-wired that way anyway.

I was thinking along these lines too. At 4 and even older, a child won't necessarily have the developmental ability to do what mom says because she says so (such as don't do such and such dangerous thing.) This is normal 4 year old behavior which must be especially exhausting and frustrating when it's all up to you to protect/guide/respectfully discipline etc. It's exhausting to have say something (don't stick forks in the outlet!) a million times,and gently distract/redirect, until the million-and-first time when the child finally understands.

I agree with the person above who suggested finding a support group in order to get perspective about what is normal. It sure helped me to go to LLL meetings and see that all moms struggle with certain issues. Maybe there are playgroups, mom's groups, single mom support groups, etc. near you.

When things calm down a little you might find the Raising Your Spirited Child book and workbook by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka helpful.

My dd used to panic when asked to be alone sometimes. She did outgrow this.

ITA that you have a right to set limits and begin to teach your child that you both have rights. It is a difficult transition for ALL parents as kids grow from helpless needy infants into exhausting toddlers and preschoolers and you
have to begin setting boundaries. Every parents goes through this hard time that you are going through to some degree.

The culture gives lip service to parenting being "the hardest job there is" and now you are in the trenches seeing for yourself. Your mama burnout is normal and totally understandable! Been there!


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## sleepies (Nov 30, 2001)

i would not feel you need to breastfeed a 4 year old, unless you want to.
he isn't a baby, and you should be able to reason with him.

i doubt AP damaged his learning potential. maybe try reading more to him or something? different activities? for example if you do a lot of coloring, maybe try using clay instead? or if he seems to do a lot of sitting, maybe get him interested in more active type games.

i think AP is the best for older kids....so i hope you dont start spanking or putting in time out, because at age 4 you should be able to have conversations and avoid most punishments.


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

And when we talk about setting limits/boundaries about parenting, including nursing...that is what you choose to make of it. It can include limiting nursing sometime, but doesn't have to mean weaning completely unless that's what you want after 4 years. Have you read any books about weaning like
How Weaning Happens
The Nursing Mother's Guide to Weaning
etc.?
Have you talked to a LLL leader or gone to a LLL meeting?


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

You might find some insight in this article about how a mother realized that her 4-year-old's terrible behavior was connected to their nursing relationship and that what the child really needed was a firm change in policy from her mother. I'm not saying that this situation exactly parallels yours, but the ideas may be helpful anyway.








Good luck!


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

My son is about to turn 4, and just weaned in March. Months before that, I reached a point where I had to set very firm nursing boundries. Our relationship felt very negative because of the constant demands for nursing, and my building resentment over it.

At first we nursed in the morning and at night, and that was *it.* I made it very clear that those were our nursing times. Other times, I would say, _"Sorry sweety, its not time right now. But I would be happy to rub your back, or snuggle you, or get you some milk from the fridge, or all 3."_ There were tears at first, and resistance, but it was not long until he adjusted to the routine. And then I cut out bedtime nursing and told him stories/rubbed his back instead. Again, there were tears for a night or two, and then we were fine. I would have been happy to keep nursing him just in the mornings for a long time longer. But after a few weeks of nursing only in the morning, he suddenly started sleeping through it, and asking for breakfast instead. And then one day he tried and the milk was gone. He hasn't tried again since then.

Anyway, my point is that I think what we did was still in line with AP. Even mother animals will stand up and walk away mid-feeding when their babes are older. Have you ever seen an irritable looking mother cat walking alone dragging kittens? I think that it is perfectly natural, and good parenting, to begin setting some limits with an toddler nursling.

As far as having time to myself -- well, I pretty much only get that when someone else is available to play with him. But I guess I see that as developmentally normal, and not a result of my parenting style.


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## wysmom (Jul 7, 2004)

Children will attach to loving parents whether you breast feed or bottle feed, co-sleep or crib sleep, wear a sling or not. Do you think Dr. Sears was breast feeding, home all day with his kids and carrying them around in a sling? I think not. It's one thing to preach another to practice. I threw his book out after the first month. Everything I learned about loving parenting, setting boundaries and discipline I learned from the moms in my life. I'm an observer and I see what works and what doesn't. I try things with my son and see how they feel to me, him and my husband. I'm very in tune with my son and his needs, one of which is boundaries and discipline. He's very responsive to time-outs as am I. sometimes I'll say "you know what Wyeth? Mommy needs a time out. I need a few minutes to myself to take a deep breath and collect mysellf. In our house, time-out takes place at the bottom of the stairs. So if someone is in time-out they cannot be talked to or bothered. My son knows when I'm in time-out he can't talk to me or really even look at me. Just a few minutes is all I need, just like he does when he loses it.

It's normal for 3 and 4 year olds to do a lot of whining and complaining, but you don't have to listen to it. When my son is whining and whimpering for no reason I tell him he needs to do it in his room and that when he's done he can come out. Sometimes he stops right away and other times he opts to go in room and cry for 10 minutes. Then he's done and he gets on his way. To be quite honest, sometimes I want to go in my room and cry for 10 minutes. Hell why not? sounds pretty cathartic.

AP is what ever you make it. Just remember, all you need is love. The rest is all what works for you and your family.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Quote:

Everything I learned about loving parenting, setting boundaries and discipline I learned from the moms in my life.
You were lucky to have such moms around you. Most of us neither had, nor do we currently have, any such role models. If it weren't for books like Sears, many of us would never know these options, and would resort to tactics that don't feel right at all, but that are shoved down our throats as the way to do things, lest we "spoil" our children.

Quote:

I try things with my son and see how they feel to me, him and my husband.
Most people come with such emotional baggage from their own childhoods that they are often unable to evaluate what is "working" and what isn't, based simply on their own innate "gut feeling".

For example, you (general "you") may have an innate block against cosleeping. It may not feel "right" to you. Likely because you'd always been given the idea that it was dangerous and wrong, and had never known anybody to do it. And because you were unaware of all the solid research showing it is safe and beneficial. But then once you read about it in a book, you may change your mind. And something hits you and it feels VERY "right".

This sort of thing happens to parents all the time. Personally, I think the hardest part of parenting is realizing that it isn't all that easy, that it requires research and independent thought, that there is always something we "think" we know that may end up being a total myth...and that there are a lot of misinformed, misguided parents out there who thought parenting was just about "doing what your mother did", or "what everybody else does".

Anyways, what I'm saying is, I'm glad it all came naturally to you, but that is not the case for most people. Few of us cannot benefit from reading a few good parenting books.


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## UrbanPlanter (Nov 14, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wysmom*
Do you think Dr. Sears was breast feeding, home all day with his kids and carrying them around in a sling? I think not. It's one thing to preach another to practice.

Umm... yes, he and his wife Martha did do all of these things with most of their children - only the first couple of kids missed out bc they hadn't yet developed this parenting style for themselves.

Martha breastfed. They both carried their children in slings. Their children were raised by their parents.


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wysmom*
Children will attach to loving parents whether you breast feed or bottle feed, co-sleep or crib sleep, wear a sling or not. Do you think Dr. Sears was breast feeding, home all day with his kids and carrying them around in a sling? I think not. It's one thing to preach another to practice.

Actually, Dr Sears and his wife did these things. they are very public and proud about it.

Quote:

I'm very in tune with my son and his needs, one of which is boundaries and discipline.
this is confusing to me. below you say that when your son whines and cries you send him to his rooms and you don't want to hear it. how is this being in tune with his needs? that's actually shutting him off and deciding to not fulfill his needs for attention or others.

Quote:

So if someone is in time-out they cannot be talked to or bothered. My son knows when I'm in time-out he can't talk to me or really even look at me.
are you kidding? he can't EVEN LOOK at you? it seems to me like he's afraid of you.

Quote:

It's normal for 3 and 4 year olds to do a lot of whining and complaining, but you don't have to listen to it. When my son is whining and whimpering for no reason I tell him he needs to do it in his room and that when he's done he can come out.
you don't have to listen to it? children that age whine and complain as a form of expressing their feelings, because they are not mature enough to talk it out. you son is trying to tell you something, IMO.
would you like it if when you were complaining to your husband about something that he does that you don't like, he stood up and say "I don't wanna hear it, go to your room until you stop whining and only then come back" would you feel hurt? lonely?

Quote:

AP is what ever you make it. Just remember, all you need is love. The rest is all what works for you and your family.
I put a lot of thought into my parenting and sometimes you have to MAKE things work. it's not always easy, sometimes I WANT to send my dd to her room for a minute, but I put my childiren first and they need me to think before I act. Love is important (very) but I also believe we must put a lot of thought into raising children. it's hard and not something to take lightly IMO.


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## veganmamma (Sep 10, 2002)

AP isn't what you make it. Attachment parenting is parenting your child in a way that helps them develop a secure attachment to you where they know you are there for them. If AP is whatever you make it, then AP can be babywise or ferber or whatever. That is kind of a silly statement. AP is whatever you make it.

And I agree, how would any of us feel if our partners said, "Yeah, don't whine to me, go to your room and when you're done whining you can come out."


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

Thank again everyone for the input. I don't agree with everything, but all is food for though.

I think a philosophy with a tag (be it AP or others) should be well defined and clear so it serves as valuable guide and knowledge.

My breastfeeding issue is going well. In an attempt to confort my child in different ways I've found out he has a weak spot on his head I can scratch which makes him melt :LOL and pacifies breastfeeding sessions (he's not as rough and twiddly).


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## nomadmom (Mar 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wysmom*
AP is what ever you make it. Just remember, all you need is love. The rest is all what works for you and your family.

Yes, love is very important, but I'm sure that most parents who follow Ezzo, Ferber, etc. love their children and are doing "what works for their family". But, we all know that is not AP. It is *not* whatever you make it! I don't like the phrase "whatever works" because people can use it to justify things that aren't AP (eg. baby *needs* sleep and it "works" to let him CIO).


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## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leonor*

My breastfeeding issue is going well. In an attempt to confort my child in different ways I've found out he has a weak spot on his head I can scratch which makes him melt :LOL and pacifies breastfeeding sessions (he's not as rough and twiddly).

that's just too sweet









My dd is almost 5, we have pretty similar issues. However, she is very understanding of my pov. So far, things have just kinda "been the way they are because that's how they are" but lately she understands that I may feel different about things than she does.

In the bf department, I've had to make clear that I can handle so much and not more (I also bf a baby, and have very limited supply). I've explained that she can nurse certain times every day, and in cases of emergency. She nurses short, but when really necessary she can have extra. I've explained that that's all I can handle. She understands. So sometimes she tries stuff, and then I tell her that I feel she's manipulating me. Same things with tears. I've also given examples of how I manipulate her







, like when I am all gushy after she does something that's good for ME not her (like cleaning up).

NOw, we can both call each other on it. "mama, you're MIPulating me!!" And she is surprisingly aware now that nursing is a relationship between us, something that only works by consensus. As is cleaning up









And when she needs to cry and cry some more, I let her, but I do make clear when I think she's starting to manipulate me (like, no tears and looking at me like a soccer player who checks if the referee saw him fall down). At that point, I tell her I prefer to focus my attention elsewhere, perhaps in a less noisy part of the house. We only had ONE big "cry", and once she knew that it didn't get her what she wanted, it was over. We also discussed the "crying wolf" thing and crying, she agrees that it's better to express lots of sadness when you feel it rather than for effect. But I also think she really needed to cry very big becuase she felt that new boundaries meant a loss somehow, and she needed to mourn that loss. Which I understand.


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## nomadmom (Mar 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leonor*
My breastfeeding issue is going well. In an attempt to confort my child in different ways I've found out he has a weak spot on his head I can scratch which makes him melt :LOL and pacifies breastfeeding sessions (he's not as rough and twiddly).

That's great! Keep talking to us.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Leonor: love that head-scratching story!

simonee: I think it's so great that you talk to your DD like that "I feel as though you are manipulating me". This is one of those "I" statements that is so important in communcation. You aren't accusing your DD of anything, you are simply stating how her actions are making YOU feel. Wonderful!!

And I have to agree that parenting is about alot more than just love. Even the worst Ezzo/Pearl whip-your-babies types love their kids. Love is most certainly not enough.


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## mountain (Dec 12, 2001)

I don't think the OP r/e "love" necessarily meant that in a "just look at each other love" kind of thing,

To me, love is all encompassing--involving maternal feelings, instincts, respect, actions leading to the feeling of love...

In one sense, I like this idea, I dislike "overthinking" things when they could be simple. On the other hand, I see that saying "all u need is love" could be oversimplifying---except love itself is such a complex thing.

I try to teach my children what I need in terms of our loving relationship--e.g. no violence (or nipple twiddling--ouch), respectful speaking terms & volume, what is productive for their lives & mine...in general= boundaries.

I feel badly for people who believe indulging their children in obnoxious behaviors does them any good. Sitting complacently by while they disrespect with no consequences is forming an adult that will go into a world where other adults are NOT going to sit compacently by.

I definitely don't have all the answers, but I do have the respectful, instinctual version of "love"...


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## Rainbow (Nov 19, 2001)

I've come to feel that like in the wild we mama animals have intuition that tells us when to help guide our children away from the breast. Not harsh ugly weaning, but I do feel that instinct and nature take over and tell us enough. I wasn't sure about this until recently. I still enjoy nursing my 16 month old- it still feels right. However with my 3 yr old I feel aggravated, frustrated and sometimes even angry. I don't want her there most of the time. It isn't from outside sources because I have no opposition to EN- her dentist, her Dr, family and even DH support me fully. My DH is almost angry that I've *thought* of weaning her. (He thinks it is unfair to wean her when she'll have to watch the baby nursing- and i agree which is why she isn't weaned)

But I guess what I'm saying is that nature and instinct exist in all animals, and sometimes we get to caught up trying to do things by somebody elses book or schedule that we forget to stop and listen to our own intuition. I am not saying you should wean or anything. I wouldn' presume to know. I do think that maybe you should step back from books, ideals, suggestions, and how-to's and listen to your mommy heart a bit. It WILL tell you what your DS needs. Maybe he does need more structure and limits. Maybe he doesn't. I can't tell you- only you can.

My advice is to let go of what you feel you should be doing and be an instinctive parent for awhile- see how it goes and if things start to improve.


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## nicholas_mom (Apr 23, 2004)

I just read a great book "Tears and Tantrums". My ds is only 14 months old but the book talks about crying from 1 yrs olds to 8 yr olds. The author's name is Dr. Althea Solter and she has a website ......

http://www.awareparenting.com/articles.htm

Anyway, she recommends firmly (not tightly) (he may struggle to break free, that's ok) holding your child while crying........I think when he cried because you wanted some time alone is normal and if you hold him through this until he stops, he should be able to play by himself after this.....

Please don't let your child ever cry alone. Be there when he cries but then let him play by himself AFTER he cries in your arms.

She says spontaneously crying episodes are normal in children and if held while crying, the spontaneaous crying will lessen with time.

I hope some of this will be helpful.


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## Jennifer Z (Sep 15, 2002)

Some books I thought might help:
How to talk so kids will listen
Dr Sears - Discipline Book
Raising your spirited child

One thing, sort of off topic: You mentioned his teeth weren't good. Pain from teeth hurting can DEFINATLY affect behavior. My friends had a child who was beyond impossible and they took him to the dentist, found out that almost all of his teeth needed to be capped due to cavaties. He was a different child (better) after the surgery. Also, although dental care is a factor, it is no way the only factor. People are born with bad teeth just like they are born with bad eyes or bad hearts, sometimes with no apparent genetic reason. I know parents who never brush their kid's teeth and none of their kids have a single cavity, and people who are diligent and have a mouthful.

As the mom of a two year old, I have no practical advice. The only thing I know is that I can not imagine trying to parent my child alone and have the uptmost sympathy for how overwhelming it must be for you.


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

I just wanted to say that, yes, I have been deeply disappointed in attachment parenting. Or rather, my lack of understanding, particularly regarding discipline. My personality is such that I find it extremely difficult to be consistent. And dd1's personality is such that at age seven, she will ask to ride in the back of the cart, and when told no that is not allowed/safe, etc. and we don't do that, will say "But you let me that one time!" and be referring to the time, when she was about two and I put her in a Home Depot cart that did not have a child seat! I also, as a single parent, find it very difficult and/or impossible to leave places if dd is acting up. That does not help in the consistency/boundaries dept.

I have confused attachment parenting with martyr mothering at times and have to remember that boundaries and limits are important. I think you have gotten many pieces of good advice. I do disagree with the idea that a child should never be left alone to cry/whine and that people wouldn't like it if their partner didn't want to listen to whining. Get real! Nobody likes to listen to whining and I think it is absolutely okay to tell someone, child or adult, that you can't listen to them until they quit whining. I think it is quite possible to tell when someone needs holding/comforting/reassurance and when they just need to take their cranky self elsewhere for a bit.

I had issues with dd re: both playing alone and with breastfeeding etiquette. I followed my gut and felt that my changing feelings and resentment about things I'd previously felt comfortable with meant that things needed to change. I encouraged weaning when it started to bother me and I had been setting limits prior to that. The one I remember the most was that switching sides was only allowed three times per nursing session!







I also began to strongly encourage playing alone when she was about four. It was difficult, but we got through and now she can amuse herself for hours at a time. We started with just a few minutes!


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sofiamomm*
I do disagree...

This is the main problem of AP after all, isn't it?


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dvmomma*
I think it's unfair to kids not to teach them ways of expressing themselves that won't drive others away.

I agree. But lets not forget the age gap and be more forgiving of the child.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

edited because I really


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## pilesoflaundry (Dec 9, 2003)

I only read the OP because I only have a few minutes I might come back and read more later, just sorry if I'm repeating what has been said!

I at times think 'being ap' is to blame for some of our problems. My toddler can't ever sleep alone, except possibly naps. She screams if I have to move away from her to change the baby's diaper in the middle of the night etc. Even if I am still in the room and even if she was sound asleep she knows I moved and is afraid in her half asleepness that I will leave. That is hard, but I still don't believe in locking her in her room or making her cio and not co-sleeping. So I'm torn, I don't really want to parent another way because I know this is what is best for my kids but at the same time it can be frustrating.

And my ds is out of control, he is 5. I don't know what to do with him but I do think he has adhd so that might be more to do with him than with being ap. I really stink at the discipline thing







. I don't want to yell but I do, I don't want to spank and 99% of the time I don't but then I get so frustrated with him that I do. I grew up in a yelling, screaming , spanking house so I have no real good parenting model. How do I do this gently without making spoiled brats??

Dh blames me for holding the baby too much and using the sling too much as to why she can't sit up at almost 10 months old. She gets plenty of floor time so I figure if she wanted to sit she would.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *dvmomma*
...I think it's a pretty broad, inaccurate, and hurtful generalization to suggest that just because people set appropriate boundaries for how they allow themselves to be treated, that they are selfish. Especially when you don't know the family dynamics...

Agreed. I was an at-home mother, with my child 24/7 for the first four years of his life. There is book, no theory, no parenting guru who knows my child like I do. Of all the mistakes I made have made, being selfish is not one of them. I have always treated my child with respect and have expected the same in return (age appropriate, of course.) I don't think there is anything about that that is "anti-AP"


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

You know, Piglet, speaking of telling you that you are not yourself lately. . . You seem a titch more, ummm, sharp? lately. Anyway, I do not actually make comments such as take your crabby self elsewhere in those exact words to two year olds. I don't think I've actually ever said that to anyone irl. It was just an expression I used for this discussion. Sometimes you can compare adults and children and sometimes that is apples and oranges. And as far as you saying not to do that, well you just did, when you talk about how you are your dh deal with each others' crabby times.

With very young toddlers I think it is appropriate to let them know that whining is not okay and that it bugs people and makes them not want to be around you, do what you ask, etc. Then, of course, you model for them what will get them somewhere, or at least validate feelings if they can't have what they want. I would never expect a toddler to get this all at once or right away. It has to be over and over. I am in fact working on a little shrieking issue we are having at our house right now. LOL It is going slowly to say the least! And recently, a couple of times, I have set her down somewhere and told she could scream all she needed to and rejoin us when she was done. And she did just that and was totally fine after she got it out of her system. Me trying to do something about it or hold just makes it worse.

With a four year old I absolutely would send her to another room of the house for socially inappropriate behavior. I think it is selfish to expect someone else to deal with inappropriate expression of feelings. So I guess it all depends on your family dynamics. What you and dh are doing works for you. In my family of origin you are more likely to hear something like "What's up your butt?" directed at someone who is acting peevishly. It is just as much an invitation to share openly and honestly as any nicely worded psychobabble. In fact, psychobabble would probably raise hackles! :LOL

I think in going back to what AP is all about, when you are attached to someone you care about what they care about and you know them and how they are likely to respond to certain thing. Attaching to a baby and small child is, if I can put it simply, getting to know them. And when you have that knowledge about someone and you know the dynamics you know whether you can tell them to go spend some time alone or if you need to gently tease out whatever is bothering them.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I came back here and read my post before even reading the replies, and I shocked myself with how badly it came out. In fact my first reaction was "geez, do I sound crabby or what?".







So I'm not surprised at the reactions....I have deleted it.

And I want to apologize to those I offended. My post came out way judgmental and I totally didn't mean it to. Honestly, these PG hormones must be fogging my brain. Sorry, ladies.


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

Awww, Piglet, you didn't have to delete your post. You are allowed to be hormonal. We love ya! And besides, dvmom quotes the entire thing in her post, heh heh. I figured you to be in a bad mood and also that you would take my post the right way. Got that head on your shoulders after all. I've always liked hearing from you and remember your posts from way back when you were giddily pregnant the first time!


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

Yeah, I know it was quoted, but I felt it was the sentiment behind the deletion, kwim? (yeah, see this way I can look good and still get my rant out, lol - I'm totally kidding!)....And I really appreciated how "diplomatic" you were about pointing out my less-than-stellar display of tact.


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## shrinkmama (Jul 11, 2004)

Piglet, I've read through a few different threads and I was thinking, Umm she's pretty opinionated. I have a feeling if we were all discussing things face to face it would be so much easier. We miss so much of conversation without being able to clarify ourselves or being able to read body language and facial expressions.

I've had successes and failures with AP. I think it's a terrific philosophy and one that should be spread, but I don't think we should expect every bit of AP to jive with everyone. Take my son for example. He hated the sling. Cried everytime I tried to put him in it. I called my AP buddy and had her come over and help me with the sling (maybe I was doing it wrong) but she couldn't figure out why he hated it either. Then I tried the Baby Bjorn. Hated that too. Turns out he didn't even like being swaddled. I had a feeling in utero that he didn't like tight spaces (it often felt like he was trying to fully stretch out in there). Anyway, he liked being held and he also liked just lying around on the floor observing the world. It was a matter of setting aside what I thought was best for what actually worked for him.

I also didn't breast feed. I would have loved to, but I had breast cancer in my twenties and had a double mastectomy. But I really hate giving that as my reason b/c I know some women who just never felt comfortable with it or never got the hang of it. I know they always feel that they have to explain their decision and I think they feel some guilt about it, but the truth is, in today's world we have choices. Breast is definitely best, but I don't think my son is worse off for not BFing. He seems healthy and fine to me.

We co-sleep and we are very nurturing. We don't spank and we really try to find out what our son needs if he is having trouble telling us, but we also do a sort of time out. It's actually a "peace table". If someone in the house is being peevish or is upset and won't respond kindly to inquiries, then we say "maybe you should visit the peace table". We have smooth shiny rocks at the peace table that you can pick up and rub. it's very soothing. You can turn on the fountain or look at pictures that are soothing. We have different things we all put at the peace table. Things that sooth us and make us feel better. We also taught our son how to do deep breaths from his stomach. He actually learned this in a kids yoga class. So we also encourage breathing when at the peace table. But it sounds too idyllic. There are times when he'd rather destroy the peace table and scream at the top his lungs rather than take a breath. Sometimes I feel like that too. When I feel that way or dh or ds. we have to go our room and be alone until it passes b/c it's not fair to the rest of the family who lovingly tried to help you before you threw the toy across the room and called them all "stupid". If you know what I mean.

Children need to learn what is appropriate behavior. It should be done in a kind and loving way, but it may also require that one has one own space for a short while to recompose oneself. It's not a punishment. It's a need. We all need that space to vent once in a while.


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pilesoflaundry*
And my ds is out of control, he is 5. I don't know what to do with him but I do think he has adhd so that might be more to do with him than with being ap. I really stink at the discipline thing







. I don't want to yell but I do, I don't want to spank and 99% of the time I don't but then I get so frustrated with him that I do. I grew up in a yelling, screaming , spanking house so I have no real good parenting model. How do I do this gently without making spoiled brats??

I'm sorry you are going through a hard time, but please don't label your child.
I see this too much on AP forums.

I know I'm going to be jumped at here, but parents nowadays are eager to be told it's not their fault when things go wrong. It would be a relief not to be blamed and have that magical medicine sort it all, and you know better what you can cope with, but think again.

I think this way: my chilld is not hyperactive, it's me who is a slow-poke. And it's true. To my child the world is new and he is eager to explore it. We as mothers are happy to sit for hours and just chat online about mundane things or whatever.

I don't buy "chemical imbalance in the brain" theories. There is no test to measure chemicals in live brains, doctors just pick social unacepted behavious and then classify them as sympmoms.

I speak from experience. I was diagnosed as bi-polar some time ago and the truth is my parents were unable to help me. I was in a time of life I had to decide a career, and although they supported me in my choices, all I had was the choice to study in a crappy outdated art college. Studying abroad was never an option (no money I'm afraid), so I felt I had no choices in my life. I was obviously tired of studying for nothing and feeling trapped and got ill.

It's not like the brain as an organ can't get ill or damaged, but when there are social situations likely to cause mental distress, we should consider them first.

If you are yelling and smacking your ds he will behave horribly. It's how I detected my ex was abusing him, not only the bruises, but that my child was behaving horribly and so out of character.

I remember once I was punished because I was playing ball at home and broke something. Now whose fault is it I'm playing ball at home, when I wasn't allowed to play outside by my own and my mother didn't take me to the park times enough?

So I advise that instead of focusing on disciplining to stop the bad behaviours, focus on the roots of the problem. Try to look at it from a positive perspective. Like instead "Oh my god, my kid is throwing all the books from the shelves down, it was AP or maybe he's ADHD" try to think "The kid is wrecking the house and it's not acceptable, I'll stop him but I'll also try to find something he can do that is fun..."

This is what I try to do. I've been finding the good old "they do it for attention" is still so true. And they deserve attention, not like in the form of a benevolent public for their bad performances, but in the form of someone that recognises they need help to channel all that energy into something good.


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## pilesoflaundry (Dec 9, 2003)

I'm not just labeling my child, he really is out of control and I really do believe something is up with him whether or not it is ADHD or not. And I am not the first or last person to notice it. I don't see how much more I can do for him/with him or how many more hours a day I can get him outside. As it is I have to make him come in and drink something and eat, he asks to go outside the second he gets up in the morning and whines when I tell him he has to come in. He has a ton of books, toys, and art supplies and he uses those too.

And it's not just pulling stuff off the shelves, I really wish it was something that basic. He is very impulsive, he could be drinking something and then decides he doesn't want it anymore so he just dumps the cup on the table. He decided he hated his glasses so he broke them in half (2 pairs!). He destroys things when he suddenly decides he doesn't want or like them even if they don't belong to him. He can't just walk with you he has to run in the street, he walks right up to cars pulling out of parking spots because he wants to touch them. I can be holding his hand and all of a sudden he breaks lose from me. He opens things in stores, he can't be confined in a room for long at all. Forget waiting in the exam room at the docs office, in 5 minutes the sink is flooded, he is jumping off the exam table etc. I have to physically hold him in my lap to keep him in one spot.

He has tried to suffocate his baby sister, he has tried to hurt himself and me. He runs through the house like an animal, he can't ever be quiet, ever. It's not just that he is talkative, he also makes lots of very loud noises all day long without ever stopping. He has gotten worse and worse since he turned age 3. He is into everything, if I tell him not to touch something it's like I'm not talking to him at all. He zones us out. He tells me he doesn't want to do things but "his brain makes him". That's what he says, I don't know what to think but does this sound like normal behavior to you??

My dd doesn't do anything like this at all and the only kids I do know that act this way have been diagnosied with something like adhd/add etc. My kids have been parented pretty much the same way so I don't really think it's my discipline.


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## Satori (Jan 30, 2003)

It sounds like you really do need a psych eval mama, these are not normal behaviors.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

wow, pilesoflaundry, you must be exhausted!


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

Does he watch Cartoon Network?


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## pilesoflaundry (Dec 9, 2003)

Satori, yeah I have mentioned that to dh, especially since mental illness and brain disruptions like add run in my family a lot on my mom's side. Dh thinks he is just acting up and I used to think that but after 3 years of this I'm thinking there is much more to this than being a boy kwim?

And Piglet, you have no idea how much! :LOL Some days are better than others if I can manage to keep him busy for every second of the day or I cave in and tell him to watch a movie. That one thing can keep him still for a little while so I can relax if it's a movie he likes. If it isn't or it's a movie that further excites him for some reason then he is more off the wall. The hard part is sometimes the same movie that calms him one day has him bonkers 3 days later. But some days all I can do is pray for bedtime to come quick.


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## pilesoflaundry (Dec 9, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Leonor*
Does he watch Cartoon Network?


Not usually. Once in a great while dh has let him or I think he saw some of it at a friends house because he came home talking about some show that I think is on that channel. He watches mostly movies or sometimes nick jr.


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pilesoflaundry*
Not usually. Once in a great while dh has let him or I think he saw some of it at a friends house because he came home talking about some show that I think is on that channel. He watches mostly movies or sometimes nick jr.

All the same. Your kid is acting up like a cartoon, even what he said about the brain is cartoon talk!

Also, you seem to be a very social family, lots of friends, loud, etc, am I wrong?


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## pilesoflaundry (Dec 9, 2003)

Leonor, considering you don't know me or my family you are making assumptions. We aren't a very loud family IMO. But anyway this thread isn't about me, or my ds and all of his behavior issues. You said yourself you don't believe in disorders like this, that is fine and your opinion but I don't wish to discuss it further with you as I have derailed this thread enough.


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## Leatherette (Mar 4, 2003)

Leonor,

Another incorrect assumption is that a child who is labelled ADHD will automatically be given medication. There are many non-pharmaceutical ways to help kids with ADHD be successful. In my work with kids that were labelled ADHD, we took over 50 % of them off of their meds and taught them coping strategies.

I was actually more taken aback by the labels you gave your own son in the original post. "Spoilt, horrible teeth, not especially smart" seem like much more damaging labels than ADHD.

Back to the original post, though, how are things going?

L.


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## LoveBeads (Jul 8, 2002)

(((((Piles))))))

I would have him evaluated. It sounds like he is quite a spirited little guy and you may need to find out the best way to connect with him. I know when I found out my DD has SID, I was very relieved.


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## lilyka (Nov 20, 2001)

Pilesoflaundry - I highly recocomend professional help. A thourough evaluation both medically and psycologically. I am not trying to be insulting but that is far frm the range of normal even for a spirited kid.

Lenore - Sorry but OI haven't read every post. If I am repeating anything i am sorry. I hope this doesn't sound to preachy. But first and foremost set some boundries. Start with 3 things and work on those and if everything else doesn't fall into place, choose three more and work on those. They are not arbitrary boundries. They don't bug you for no good reason. Lest start with nursing. Nipple twiddling hurts. From day one I would remove my baby from the breast if they didn't respond to redirection after the first time (granted they didn't start nipple twiddling until they were around 7 or 8 months). Needless to say I never had my nipple twiddled more thana time or two. I can just hardly bare to nurse at all much less have my nipple abused and twiddled. Did they cry when I ended the feeding? You bet they did. But it only took a couple of times before they made the connection and it didn't hurt them to wait 5-45 minutes for thier meal to finish. (depending on how old they were). Not arbitrary. If you want to nurse you have to be nice. Bedtime (you haven't brought this up but I would bet that a regular bedtime would be helpful - if nothing else to give you a break) It isn'
t arbnitrary because he can't function without proper rest and I d on ot buy that kids know when they are tired and will merrily drift off to sleep when they get tired. I htink most kids nee help identifying thier sleep signals and will fight it tooth and nail. My kids go to bed at 8 wether they are tired or not but at least I am off for the night and they are in a sleep inducing environment. Did they protest when we started this. Absolutely. Especially my middle child (who is four and generally my most stubborn about stuff). Teeth brushing. From your original post I gather you never forced him to brush his teeth. Ya know. You really only get one shot at healthy teeth so I will hold my children down and brush thier teeth. I don't have all the time in the world to bargin and persuade (and have never been against coersion - I don't see the big deal. I get coersed to do crap all the time. It hasn't wrecked me. I wish someone had coersed me into brushing my teeth because ihate when I open my mouth and see all the ugly fillings.)

As for throwing a fot anf crying and carrying on. I have never seen a 4 year old cry for longer than they wanted to. I have never seen them carry on for terribly long in the absense of an audiance. I have never sen any die from crying. I have seen one who could throw up on command and i made her help me clean it up and I sent her back to bed. she was just pitchin' a fit because she didn't want to go to sleep and her mom never told her when to go to bed but our house, our rules etc. . . I put her time out once and she made herself throw up. agin I had her help me clean it up and she finished her time out. She stopped doing it after that. He won't die from a tantrum. He is mad and angry and those are valid feelings that he is entitled to but he is not entitled to be a monster. And you are not doing him any favors by letting him become one. Once you get through the crying thing it will resolve and you will know the difference between real saddness and throwing a fit. I still throw fits someimtes. It is OK for him to be really mad and throw a fit but that doesn't change the fact that this is a give and take relationship and he has to follow the rules.

As for being dissapointed in AP I was totally dissapointed. I htink my dd was about 2 1/2 - 3. I hated the way the books made it sound like if you did this you would get this result. Bull. I got the exact opposite. I relized I started to start listening to my child and stop listening to the book. AP had a good point and being attatched was better than being detatched. Slinging was better than not slinging. Being open to the family bed was helpful. ALl good stuff. Not one bit of it will help turn your child into a great person in the absense of good parenting. Good instruction. You do need to teach them how to act respectfully and treat others as they would want to be treated. that they are not the center of the universe.

Anyway, I hope things can get better. A couple of books you might enjoy reading are "The 7:00 Bedtime" and "Parenting with Love and Logic " (take what you want and leave the rest behind) and "1,2,3 magic" again with the taking what you want. I think they all made some really good points that really changed what I expected of my children and helped us come to a place where we could both function happily.


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## pilesoflaundry (Dec 9, 2003)

Sandra, no it doesn't sound insulting at all. I have actually said to dh that sadly I think he needs some help. I am just afraid 2 seconds into the eval they will want to medicate him, the last thing I want are some happy pills kwim? I want to figure out what is up with him, and why it is happening before he gets meds if he even needs them. I am going to have him tested for food and other sensativities to see if some of this might be allergy related. I do notice some improvement with him if he doesn't have any cow's milk.


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## shrinkmama (Jul 11, 2004)

pilesolaundry
You are the mother and you know your son best. If you think there is a problem there probably is. I would definitely take him to a good pediatric neuropsychologist first, but also explore dietary and environmental ways to help him. You might consider seeing a naturopath that can make recommendations on dietary changes. You might also take him to an allergist and see if he has any allergies. I think there can be a lot of causes and ways to handle your son if he is ADHD that does not involve medication.

I make this recommendation b/c I was given only a 20% survival rate when I was diagnosed with breast cancer. I credit western medicine for destroying the cancer but eastern medicine in healing me. Dietary changes were the biggest difference in how I felt and how my body was able to heal itself. To this day I have a very different diet than the traditional american wheat, dairy and meat diet. After having cancer and all the chemo and radiation I was told that my eggs were probably toast and I may never get pregnant. But I credit the eastern and naturopathic remedies that made me one fertile mama.

I have also heard of yoga breathing and centering techniques that have been used with ADHD children, but I'm not sure about at your sons age.

Anyway, definitely follow your gut and start finding out what's going on with your son. It does not sound like normal behavior. I hope you find answers soon. Keep us posted.


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

Pilesofllaundry, I didn't make assumptions, I was asking. Sorry if the tone made it sound otherwise. For what I've seen from families I meet, social parents with very active lives usually have over-excited kids.

I honestly find it unfair you only list and describe your ds behaviours in detail, and leave the rest of the family life out. It's unbalanced. Because children learn by example. And I correctly guessed your child was watching a cartoon channel. But you just give us the data so people can say "oh, yes, certainly ADHD" people will say that. If that's the help you need, fine, I hope you get it. But I've seen this too much of this on AP foruns and I don't like it. I don't like the mental illness fashion.

I don't like to see children labeled and parents getting forgiven and hugged for yelling and spanking at them. Not that parents shouldn't be forgiven, but children should be forgiven FIRST! After all your at least 20 years older than him, you should know better...

I know I'm not the eloquent here and I'm not going to be heard, but wouldn't it be more simple to turn the TV off, or at least supervise what your ds watches? Children copy what they see. My kid only watches very gentle shows, and always with me supervising.


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## bklynmum (Apr 7, 2002)

It is possible that this has been said before, I just didn't have the patience to read all the reply's!

I guess AP is like a religion if you will. Anything that is taken to an extreme can be seen as radical and somewhere you need to find a balance....

It might be time for AP to take a back seat and for you to gain your control....check out that Super Nanny show on Channel 4 this week...(fyi also in the UK!)

I would be weaning and sleep training if I were you!

Good Luck....

P.S. Are you in London?


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bklynmum*
It might be time for AP to take a back seat and for you to gain your control....check out that Super Nanny show on Channel 4 this week...(fyi also in the UK!)

Hmm... I'm not sure about that show, it must be humilliting for the children. I picture those children as adults looking back at their childhoods being exposed on TV (millions of strangers) without their consent, it must not be a good feeling. I'm also not sure about the concept of a perfect stranger allowed in my family to fix our relatioships.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bklynmum*
I would be weaning and sleep training if I were you!!

I solved the problem without weaning, But I willl be less afraid to be a mother and do things wrong. I've been asking for too much advice on forums and following parent philosophies too religiously indeed. Nothing like common sense.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *bklynmum*
P.S. Are you in London

No, Nottingham.


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## bklynmum (Apr 7, 2002)

I agree, the reality shows they have on these days are quite scarry....my DH works in tv and is constantly telling me how those shows manipulate the talent....I meant that you might be able to get some tips on solving your issues from the concept.....have you looked at the BBC Parenting Website, there are some great links and advice sites.

My 3 1/2 DD is driving me crazy at the moment. She is trying so hard to find her place in the world and constanly pushing the boundaries...and my buttons! It is so hard to remain composed especially with DS 1yr under my feet all the time. I think that 3 and 4 are just as hard as 2 and no body says anything about that when you sign up for parenting!

Good luck and be happpy....maybe you and your dear one need some time apart so that you can find a bit more of you to give....

B


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## pilesoflaundry (Dec 9, 2003)

Quote:

Pilesofllaundry, I didn't make assumptions, I was asking. Sorry if the tone made it sound otherwise. For what I've seen from families I meet, social parents with very active lives usually have over-excited kids.
I can understand that, but no we aren't very over loud and social. I do sometimes raise my voice in frustration because I've said "don't" "stop" etc 400 times that day. My ds loves to play with other kids, he is the most social one of us in the house. I don't mind talking to other people but I'm not an out hanging over the fence chatting all day person and I don't host people in my home at all really. And our lives are very laid back, no scheduled things like classes for the kids or anything.

And if you read my post again at the bottom I stated my dd doesn't do these things. She is parented the same way, she watches the same things, is disciplined the same way, eats the same food, etc. Everything is the same so why is my dd not this way?

Quote:

I honestly find it unfair you only list and describe your ds behaviours in detail, and leave the rest of the family life out. It's unbalanced. Because children learn by example. And I correctly guessed your child was watching a cartoon channel. But you just give us the data so people can say "oh, yes, certainly ADHD" people will say that. If that's the help you need, fine, I hope you get it. But I've seen this too much of this on AP foruns and I don't like it. I don't like the mental illness fashion.

I don't like to see children labeled and parents getting forgiven and hugged for yelling and spanking at them. Not that parents shouldn't be forgiven, but children should be forgiven FIRST! After all your at least 20 years older than him, you should know better....
I'm not asking for forgiveness and hugs, I don't want anyone kissing my behind. And I said I have only spanked him a very few times out of frustration. I'm not proud of it, I apologized and really it was real safety issues that brought it out in me. I"m not going to further explain myself to you. It's obvisous how you feel about these sorts of things. I'm not dismissing you because you don't agree, I'm doing it because you are trying to make me feel like I am doing my child a diservice and labeling him. I don't say anything to his face about the possiblity of him having a problem.

Again read my other posts, I don't want happy pills and a child that sits still and doesn't make noise. I just want him to get some help before he hurts himself or someone else.

Quote:

I know I'm not the eloquent here and I'm not going to be heard, but wouldn't it be more simple to turn the TV off, or at least supervise what your ds watches? Children copy what they see. My kid only watches very gentle shows, and always with me supervising
When did I say I don't supervise what he watches? And the tv is not always on, I know what he is watching and I often do watch something with him. 90% of the time he is playing with toys or outside running around the yard.

And I said he usually watches a movie (that I have carefully picked out) or nick jr. Nick Jr. doesn't advocate running in front of cars, talking about brains or voices in your head and they don't talk about suffocating your baby sister when mom leaves the room. Rarely he has seen something on cartoon network but it's been a few times a year. Not enough to cause 3+ years of very different behavior.

And what would you have said if I said we don't have a tv or he doesn't ever watch cartoons? Now because I said yeah he does once in awhile well you are right and I'm the labeling parent? whatever







You are reading what you want out of my posts so that you can continue to tell yourself that you are right and that these things don't exist except on AP boards, ya know I've never seen a mainstream board mom say her kid has ADHD







: .


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

_Just posting a mod note to try to keep this ontopic and civil. The tone is getting a bit tense here...thanks._


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## magnoliablue (Dec 29, 2002)

When my kids were babies, AP parenting was so much easier..they were breastfed on demand, they slept with me, their needs were met almost immediately..when they were sick, or needed comforting, they always had my arms to hold them and me to nurse them if they chose this manner of comfort.They were carried in a sling, and all was right in their worlds.

Once they became toddlers, I had to adapt my parenting to fit their behavior. Nursing for comfort became rocking for comfort or reading a book together, using a soft voice and such.. Yet there were still tantrums and demands made on me that I was at a loss how to handle. My AP parenting books and other friends who practice it were my saviors, yet the books did not have the answers all of the time..I had to find what worked for me, without compromising my belief in Gentle Discipline.

Now flash forward to two preteens, 10 and 12, and a very spirited preschooler, 4. Some days I am completely lost as to make them all content. The early solutions, nursing, rocking, reading, talking softly? Maybe they occasionally work on the 4 year old, but the older two have to have a whole new approach. I find I listen to them more, I ask them questions..if one of them is grumpy or out of sorts, I stop what I am doing and try to get them to talk to me. Sometimes this doesn't always work, and I gently remind them I am there for them when they are ready. They eventually always seem to come to me on their terms.

I do not see my kids as spoiled, I really dislike that word, it implies they are bad in some way.. but I do see them as people who have come to expect that their needs and wants will be respected. Sometimes they can be a bit demanding, and I try to remind them that patience is something everyone needs in life to get by..that their teachers, their friends, their bosses one day..their partners they choose, will all expect them to be patient and undemanding, respectful of theirs and others feelings.

I know where you are coming from, mama..and I know sometimes it is hard, but know that we are all doing the best we can as parents, and there is no "bible" of sorts that has every answer for every situation. You have to find what works for you without compromising your heart and beliefs, and above all else, listen to your child..and when in doubt, hugs do work wonders.


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

"I don't buy "chemical imbalance in the brain" theories. There is no test to measure chemicals in live brains, doctors just pick social unacepted behavious and then classify them as sympmoms"

I will try and be nice about this. You don't know anything about it. Bipolar is a very real disease. Obviously you don't truly know anything about it. It IS a chemical imbalance - I have it, my mother has it, her father had it. I'm not even going to go into all the details, it would take me ages. But suffice it to say I do not have socially undesirable behaviour, i Have a medical condition. When I am not on my meds I can barely function. When I am on my meds I am totally normal. You know what, forget it, I am so angry I am going to say something I regret. I have honestly never come across a ruder comment on these boards and I can't believe I am the only person offended by that ignorant and completely false comment.


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## mich (Apr 19, 2002)

Heavenly.....


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## Dechen (Apr 3, 2004)

Heavenly, I share many of your feelings







as someone who is only alive today because of medications. I let Leonor's remarks pass the first time I read them because it isn't worth the headache.


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

T

I wouldn't have talked if I haven't been where you are.

Useful reads worth some thought:

http://www.szasz.com/iol5.html
http://www.szasz.com/iol3.html


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

Lenor - Obviously you HAVEN'T been where I am. My grandfather commit suicide because he wasn't being medicated properly. My mother had two nervous breakdowns and wasn't able to have a normal life at all until she was diagnosed and put on lithium in 1991. How can it be a behavioural problem when after 1 week on the drugs you are totally fine? Maybe someone TOLD you you were bipolar but you obviously weren't truly bipolar or you wouldn't be able to say stuff like this. You obviously don't know how it feels to wake up every day in a fog, to do and say stuff you can't remember doing, to be angry and irritable and depressed and not able to be a good and healthy person or a good mother and then take medication and within a week be a completely different person. You DON'T know. I am not angry because I feel threatened by you. I KNOW I'm right because I HAVE lived it and am still living it every day of my life. I am angry because I cannot believe someone could be so hurtful and rude when there are a whole bunch of people who suffer from this serious disease. I'm sure glad we have you to let us know we aren't really suffering from a medical condition, we are just social deviants.


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## Leonor (Dec 25, 2001)

*


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

_This thread has veered totally off-topic. If it doesn't get back on-topic, I will close it. Maybe we've said all we have to in response to the OP. But I'll wait to see if anyone else has anything to add. Please let's leave discussions of mental illness, diagnosis, etc to another time/thread. Thank you._


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## scorpioqueen (Apr 11, 2004)

Well getting back on topic.
Here is some good info /atricles on APing the older child that might come in handy.
http://childparenting.about.com/cs/e...tachment_3.htm

Deanna


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

Yeah, see my problem with AP is that it is often touted as the path to perfectly behaved children, or at least, that they will be a breeze to discipline because they are attached. "A child that feels right, acts right" I have second lilyka. It just ain't so. I read Aletha Solter's list from the link above and I do many if not all the things she listed and when they don't work, I have no other tools and wind up yelling and sometimes spanking. I just don't know what else to do. I can't tell you how much I wish that gentle discipline worked, but I can't honestly say that I believe it does.

One thing that I haven't done is try holding dd1 when she is acting obnoxiously or aggressively. I'll give it a go and see how it works. I would love to forgo the negative effects of nongentle discipline.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

Agreeing with Kara.

AP is half of the have good children equation.

Starting off with unconditional love and acceptance is important but consistancy and good discipline is the other (and you cannot overlook the child's basic temperment!!!)

I am ap but I'm strict as well.

No surprise I have well behaved children.

Debra Baker


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

Debra, I don't suppose you can condense this into a single post, but how is it that you are "strict", what does that look like in action? I'm assuming you do not yell or spank, so what do you do?

I find that what I'm working on is changing basic attitudes and outlooks on life at this point. She is seven and a half, so misbehavior is usually being uncooperative, contrary/contradictory, rude, inconsiderate, stuff like that, mostly getting along with others kind of stuff. She seems to me to be somewhat pessimistic, so we talk a lot about "cup half full" vs. "cup half empty" and keeping a grateful journal a la Oprah.







:







I have been working on this kind of stuff for awhile now and it is very frustrating. She seems to leap to the negative conclusion first, rather than last, i.e. so and so stepped on her foot on purpose rather than because they stumbled into her. I do try to look to myself for some of it and try to change my attitude, tone of voice, etc., but I'm pretty laid back, optimistic, tend to give people the benefit of the doubt etc. so it's not all me. She does have a little friend at school who has a pretty foul mouth. I really don't know.

When I think about my day with her, the things I would like to change are the constant complaining, about having to get up, not liking what we to eat in the house for breakfast, for making lunch, her sister's annoying toddler behaviors, the fact that the toddler gets more attention, that she has to go to school, that there is no school today, that she has to help me, that she has to do her chores today and everyday, (those darn cats, cant' just feed 'em once and have done with it!), that she has to take shower, you get the picture. I also would like less back talk/nasty comments/rude tone of voice. Things like "Why can't you shut that baby up?" Actually, I would like none of that! :LOL And the constant back talk is driving everybody mad. It's like a nervous tic. "Boy the sky sure is blue today", "No, I see several clouds" "Ellie you need to sit still for a minute", "No, she can roll around if she wants to", "It just rained buckets!" "It was just a little rain" and so on. She is also very loud. How do you teach a child to use a quieter voice? Repeated reminding for that last five years has made only a small dent!

In her more stellar moments she is enthusiatic, cooperative, helps out without being asked, and can entertain herself with books, art supplies, small toys, and one of the biggest imaginations I have ever seen.


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## thoesly (Dec 23, 2003)

I do most of my posting on the Special Needs forum, but this has been rattling around in my head for a few days now, so I'm going to throw it out there in hopes that someone can benefit from it.

Someone posted previously that there seems to be a lot more child labeling on MDC that there is on other message boards. My "home" is Special Needs, and we do label there, but it isn't because of anything negative. On the contrary, it's for the purpose of creating something positive. In Special Needs, a label is used as a diagnosis, not an excuse. I think there is a lot more discussion of our children's labels here at MDC because this is a powerful place. I don't post on most mainstream special needs boards because the usual welcome to a newcomer asks what medication is being used. The mamas at MDC seek to avoid medicating their kids, and those who must have tried everything else first -- they are not blindly following a doctor's advice. And this is where the label gives power -- naming the problem provides a launching pad from which we can find ways to help our children. When my son was having problems, I struggled to find a way to help him, and I just got lost in the myriad of options. Finding out that the problem had a name (a label) gave me a direction -- I could target my search for methods that would help my child with his problem.

How does that relate here? I think the label-as-launching-pad idea has applications outside of special needs, too. Yes, labels can be used as excuses, but they can also be used as tools. A parent who labels a child as "clingy" and walks away is not helping her child. But one who identifies the problem as "clinginess" and asks the follow-up questions (Why is my child insecure? Is this a recent development? Is this actually a problem with the child or just a problem with my perception?) is in a position to help that child. And someone who is disappointed with AP really does need to "label" what AP is to them, and what parts of it are not working. And why they are not working -- AP parenting is wonderful, but it should never overshadow the importance of being that specific child's parent.

Please note that I am discussing a particular type of labeling here. I am not considering labels that are tossed around for the purpose of giving offense. If no one thinks this is valid, that's okay. It works in the Special Needs world where I live, and since it truly is a beautiful place, I'm going to head back there now.

With good intentions,

Tara


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## Sofiamomma (Jan 4, 2002)

That was very helpful, thoesly, thank you! I was afraid I was going to get called on the carpet for even hinting at labeling Sophia "pessimistic", but it has helped me figure out how to help her.


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## dotcommama (Dec 30, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sofiamomma*
"Boy the sky sure is blue today", "No, I see several clouds" "Ellie you need to sit still for a minute", "No, she can roll around if she wants to", "It just rained buckets!" "It was just a little rain" and so on.

Maybe it's the age. My oldest is 6 1/2 and he's like this too. I'm hoping it's a phase!


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## Momtwice (Nov 21, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sofiamomma*
Yeah, see my problem with AP is that it is often touted as the path to perfectly behaved children, or at least, that they will be a breeze to discipline because they are attached. "A child that feels right, acts right" I have second lilyka. It just ain't so. I read Aletha Solter's list....and when they don't work, I....wind up yelling and sometimes spanking. I just don't know what else to do. I can't tell you how much I wish that gentle discipline worked, but I can't honestly say that I believe it does.

A couple of thoughts.

I think parenting authors such as Solter, Sears do parents a disservice if they say or imply that their methods will cause all children to be perfect angels.
Children will misbehave, they are not perfect, and they will grow up just fine and mentally healthier if they are not struck when they misbehave. I'm having a very hard time putting it into words...someone mentioned unconditional love above. It's also about making choices as parents that we can hold our heads up when we remember them, being glad we treated our children with dignity even when they were out of control, and it's also about parents healing their own wounds if they are resorting to methods they don't really believe in (spanking etc.) because they want to end the cycle with them but it's harder in reality than in theory and some authors make it sound too easy.

Being disapppointed in AP, saying it doesn't work....maybe it would be more accurate to say disappointed in the experience of parenthood itself?
AP should never be presented as a way to create perfectly behaving children.

Has anyone spent time with elders? We may be mean and cranky some day (because we have pain, or because we miss our health or independence and old friends and relatives who have died, or because we resent being treated like children at our nursing home, by staff members who talk to us in sing song preschool-teacher voices.) We may even become aggressive sometimes. But do we really want people to hit us to try to get us to behave, or leave us crying alone so that we will learn some lesson about independence?

I still don't think I'm saying this right.


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## magnoliablue (Dec 29, 2002)

Actually, I think it was beautifully said, Momtwice.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

You don't need to yell or spank to be strict.

I have high standards for my children, I tell them they have high standards because they're Bakers and to whom much is given much is expected.

I am firm with my standards, I will listen to them but there are things that are givens.

I try to pick my battles so I reserve the battle of the wills for important things and the things that don't count (but many parents push) just don't show up on my radar. I don't care about their dressing (beyond very basic modesty) I don't care what they eat or what music they listen to.

The Golden Rule is key as is a good work ethic especially with their school work.

Debra Baker


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

momtwice I think you put it well.

i think people complain about GD or AP not working, when it doesnt' produce perfect kids. That's not the point.

I also think it has to do with expectations of what "good" kids act like, what is acceptable behaviour, etc. One person's "failure" is another's success.

I've often wondered about this term "strict" and what that means. We don't yell or spank or punish in any way, we are laid back about a lot of things, but we do have to put our foot down from time to time, and try to do this in a way that is respectful of DD's feelings, while still staying firm in our resolve. Is that "strict"? I dunno. But then I don't know any people who have no limits whatsoever, so I don't know what to compare it to.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

Piglet I agree.

I don't get upset when I have a contrary two year old or a mouthey four year old or a surley teenager, these are normal behaviors. I will not, for example, humor a tantrum or allow a four year old to continue running the mouth or honor a surley teen in any way but I won't overreact to a normal behavior. The lippy 4yo, for example, will get a cool response.

Children's individual temperments are also a factor.

By "strict" I mean that there are definate bounderies and codes of decent behavior for the family, adults as well as children. My children know they are put on this earth for a purpose and fulfilling that purpose is an important part of being viably human.

DB


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## kittyb4me (Nov 20, 2002)

I was browsing and just wanted to jump in here. First off, Leonor, I am sorry that you are having such a rough time. I heart goes out to you, truly.








Second, I am just curious to know when everyone lost their sense of simply doing what works and feels right for your family? I don't subscribe to any one theory or method of parenting. I know how I was raised, and some was good, some of it not great. I see how others interact with their children, I learn from what I feel is good and let the rest go. I can only say that if strictly following an interpretation of AP is not working, than change it to fit what is comfortable and within your abilities. No one is perfect, nor are any of us an all-knowing higher power. As long as you have a firm grasp of what is good for YOUR child and what is not, I think the rest will fall into place.

To me, parenting is a constant re-negotiation of ideas. In our home, the only definate "nos" are hurting ourselves or others. Good manners are important to us, as is good hygeine. I don't feel we are overly strict but our children do have limits. They still have opinions and ideas, and feel free to express them. They have also learned that they will be listened to, but M&D have the final say. Simply because we have the knowledge as adults.

I think that finding YOUR balance is what would truly help. _*Do What Works!!!*_ Please, Leonor, this is the best advice I can think of. I think too many people read one philosophy and get stuck on it. Adapt the pieces you like to work within your world. Your son will trust you more if he sees you are comfortable with yourself and your parenting decisions.

I am not trying to offend anyone with my wordy post, this is all _what works for *me*._ I just needed to pipe in on this one!


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## BunnysMomma (Dec 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sofiamomma*
"A child that feels right, acts right" I have second lilyka. It just ain't so.

I do and don't agree with this. I definitely come from a behavior-based style of discipline, and that is also how my husband and I discipline. I believe that if a child acts right, for the most part he or she feels right, and *then* he or she will continue to act right. I see a lot of self-described AP parents putting what I consider to be an extreme emphasis on the emotions underlying behavior and spending so much time adressing the emotions that they never get around to addressing the behavior. (I personally think this creates self-centered kids.) They seem to feel that if they just make their kids feel good and loved and attached, their kids won't misbehave, and then a lot of them are mystified when their kids *do* misbehave anyway. I address the behavior first and the emotions second. We *always* address our kids' emotions, but not until we have addressed the behahvior and where and how it falls out of line with our family's values. That's why I consider myself a "strict" disciplinarian; we basically have a no-tolerance policy on some basic ground rules in our home. No matter how a person feels, there is no tolerance for certain behaviors.

I also feel that anyone who thinks there is no place for raised voices (not yelling, where you are just venting frustration or being hurtful, but raised voices, which get across the seriousness of the emotion and generally get the kid's attention) or, dare I say, punishments such a extra chores, etc., don't *really* remember what it's like to be a child. Sometimes children just act out because they are feeling snarky, the same as adults. Sometimes, all the touchy-feely in the world won't work to snap kids out of a bad behavior and into one that's in line with the family values. Sometimes sympathy and empathy just feed bad moods. Sometimes the unexpected is needed to reach kids. I *know* that people will disagree with me and may have a million stories to tell about how raised voices adversely affected them as children, etc. I'm not intending to get into a debate about it. I'm just stating my personal opinion, and that's that saying there is never a place for a raised voice or a non-abusive punishment (and I know we could also debate forever what is and isn't considered abuse) are just as guilty of dogmatism as those who say that children won't learn to behave if they aren't spanked (grounded, etc.). And I'm not advocating corporal punishment; through 21 kids, I have never used it.

Wilma


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