# 7 yr old suicidal (update post #46)



## ~Demeter~ (Jul 22, 2006)

My 7 yr old ds has said he wants to kill himself or die on numerous occasions within the past year. At first I didn't really "react" other than to tell him he doesn't mean that and explaining to him how sad everybody in his life would be if he were to do this. He says it when he feels people are being mean to him. It is really starting to scare me. Todays scenario started with him sneaking a treat, he did not ask and he hid it whilst going upstairs my 5yr old ds came down holding the cakes and told me his brother had taken them. I asked ds why did he do that and he had no answer for me so I said to him that he wouldn't get treats for the day if he felt he needed to steal them. We have dealt with this before and I have tried every conceivable way to stop this behaviour. I don't know what to do or how to react when he does things like this. I don't know if my reactions cause him to act this way or if he really does feel that way. He got to really crying when I asked him why he wanted to die and I sat holding and rocking him for an hour.. just holding him trying to take away his hurt. It makes me feel as if I failed somewhere but he has always been highly sensitive and easy to emotions like crying and anger. I have a doctors appointment on Friday for him a physical because I noticed he appears to walk the way I did when I was younger and it needed correction so I think I am going to bring this up to his doctor as well. What ways can I use to deal with these emotions as they come though in the interim? Has anyone else experienced this? It scares me because my family has a history of depression, bipolar, drug and alcohol abuse and other various things like that. I am terrified this is just this beginning and it is going to be a struggle with him as he gets older.







: Am I doing something terribly wrong with him??


----------



## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Mama, I have no real advice but I want to send huge









And, unless he is in a horribly abusive situation (which somehow I highly doubt seeing as you are an MDC mama) there is NO WAY you could have caused this.

I think you are very smart to be seeking professional help.


----------



## ~Demeter~ (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mizelenius* 
Mama, I have no real advice but I want to send huge









And, unless he is in a horribly abusive situation (which somehow I highly doubt seeing as you are an MDC mama) there is NO WAY you could have caused this.

I think you are very smart to be seeking professional help.

Thankyou so much for your hugs and response you have no idea what that means to me right now.


----------



## PiePie (Oct 2, 2006)

Oh, no! I recommend seeking out a psych eval -- a general doctor is not qualified to make mental health diagnoses. Be proactive about collecting names of good talk therapists who work with young elementary school-aged children and possibly also a psychiatrist who specializes in children and adolescents (usually globbed together as a specialty), just to screen whether psychopharmacological intervention may also be needed, if only to stabilize him.

Dear mama, don't blame yourself. As you said, he is highly sensitive and is reacting extraordinarily to your totally ordinary correction. He is prone to such feelings even without your disciplining him (gently) -- perhaps in that moment of confrontation with consequences, he feels like he can be heard.

I know it's small comfort, but at least he feels like he can tell you what he is feeling.


----------



## cool_mom (Mar 20, 2005)

Get him mental health asap. Run, don't walk. Your pediatrician could probably recommend someone. This is especially scary since you said that your family has a history of mental illness. This came at a particularly poignant time for me because the son of my parents' friends was diagnosed with schitzophrenia a couple years ago (he was having problems for a while). He committed suicide last week









Good luck with ds. Let us know how it works out. Many hugs.


----------



## ~Demeter~ (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *PiePie* 
Oh, no! I recommend seeking out a psych eval -- a general doctor is not qualified to make mental health diagnoses. Be proactive about collecting names of good talk therapists who work with young elementary school-aged children and possibly also a psychiatrist who specializes in children and adolescents (usually globbed together as a specialty), just to screen whether psychopharmacological intervention may also be needed, if only to stabilize him.

Dear mama, don't blame yourself. As you said, he is highly sensitive and is reacting extraordinarily to your totally ordinary correction. He is prone to such feelings even without your disciplining him (gently) -- perhaps in that moment of confrontation with consequences, he feels like he can be heard.

I know it's small comfort, but at least he feels like he can tell you what he is feeling.

I am going to discuss it with his ped because they usually have wonderful advice and referrals. I would prefer to go to someone that they work with so it can be a group effort of sorts.

At times I wonder if he says those things to get attention as harsh as that sounds. This is actually a big deal because before when he was being disciplined he was unable to respond to me or anyone.. it was like he would freeze up and after that he would run to his bed and curl up fetally and cry. I have worked with him in using words to express how he feels and I honestly thought that was just a part of his personality just how he responded to being put on the spot. He still sometimes freezes up but after a moment is able to regain himself and speak up rather than run away and cry. I thought we were going so well as he hasn't had any outbursts lately to speak of but today was a meltdown. I have learned that just holding him and rocking soothes him enough sometimes to be able to express his emotions to me.

I know I shouldn't blame myself but it is hard not to because it feels like I have gone wrong somewhere.. other then telling me he wants to die he is a wonderful child, affectionate, caring, loving and receptive, inquisitive and very intelligent. He has taught me so much about being a mother by being who he is I am terrified of losing him. If that makes any bit of sense. Thankyou for your response I truly truly appreciate it.


----------



## PiePie (Oct 2, 2006)

Yes, it's a good idea to have the healthcare providers work as a group. Try to at least have a phone consult before Friday? it can take forever to set these things up... Whether or not you think he will follow through, he needs help.

Warm wishes


----------



## daekini (Jun 17, 2004)

Oh, I'm sorry you're going through this!

I have a friend whose ds did the same thing at about the same age; he had not been abused or anything but his stepfather had committed suicide a few years before. We think that this put the idea into his head, but he really latched onto the idea for a while and some of the things you mentioned are a painful reminder of that time - I was very close to him when he was younger. If it makes you feel any better, he is now a teenager who loves learning, and is a well adjusted, sensitive, young man. He's a wonderful kid! I hope that you will find the right help for your son and that everything will be okay!


----------



## guestmama9916 (Jun 24, 2006)

When he says he wants to die, try not to turn around and tell him that he didn't mean it. In the book "how to talk so kids will listen and how to listen so kids will talk", it says if you want your kids to open up to you that you shouldn't disqualify things that they say just because you disagree. A better way to handle comments that he makes is a simple "oh, i see. you feel sad/mad/whatever." followed by a pause to see if your child will open up to you or correct you on how they feel. Also, I've read in one of my psychology books on attachment that stealing sweets/candy could be a sign of attachment issues. The psychologist that theorized this said that kids often see candy and treats as a symbol of a mother's affection. I'm only throwing that bit of info out there so you know that there's probably alot more to the stealing treats than what it seems on the surface. Its probably not an attachment thing in your case since you are an MDC mom but the treats he stole could symbolize something else going on in his life. My DH stole candy and treats and would hide them under his bed after his mom abandoned him at the age of 8 so there is some validity to this theory in his case. Hang in there. This could happen to any of us here so don't be ashamed or feel guilty. You will get to the bottom of this and things will be much better soon.









Kim


----------



## Starflower (Sep 25, 2004)

I'm sorry you are having to go through this. I agree with the PP's who suggested finding a child psych (ped's office is a good start for referrals). I think it's smart of you to take this seriously, escpecially considering your familial history. And I think PiePie has a good point about calling for a referral since sometimes it can be hard to get into places. This is definitely an ASAP kind of situation.

I had a friend in 5th grade who wanted to kill herself. To my knowledge she never actually tried, but those feelings are real whether or not they are ever acted upon. (She's doing very well these days.)

Another personal note, my brother is bipolar and has been since childhood but they didn't diagnose him until age 18. My parents didn't know what to do with him and never found an appropriate person to help him until much later in life. I think our family would've been much better off if they'd been able to find Mike the help he needed as a child, but it just wasn't available back then where we lived.

Your DS is lucky to have a mama like you, who takes his feelings seriously and who can help him find the help he needs to get through this difficult time - and with any mental health issues he may have.

Keep holding him and hang in there, mama.


----------



## ~Demeter~ (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kimbernet* 
When he says he wants to die, try not to turn around and tell him that he didn't mean it. In the book "how to talk so kids will listen and how to listen so kids will talk", it says if you want your kids to open up to you that you shouldn't disqualify things that they say just because you disagree. A better way to handle comments that he makes is a simple "oh, i see. you feel sad/mad/whatever." followed by a pause to see if your child will open up to you or correct you on how they feel. Also, I've read in one of my psychology books on attachment that stealing sweets/candy could be a sign of attachment issues. The psychologist that theorized this said that kids often see candy and treats as a symbol of a mother's affection. I'm only throwing that bit of info out there so you know that there's probably alot more to the stealing treats than what it seems on the surface. Its probably not an attachment thing in your case since you are an MDC mom but the treats he stole could symbolize something else going on in his life. My DH stole candy and treats and would hide them under his bed after his mom abandoned him at the age of 8 so there is some validity to this theory in his case. Hang in there. This could happen to any of us here so don't be ashamed or feel guilty. You will get to the bottom of this and things will be much better soon.









Kim

What you say about treats and such being equivalent to or likened to mother's affection that could make sense even in my situation. Eventhough I am an MDC mom and I do practice AP I am not infallible. I have learned alot in the couple months since joining MDC. I noticed his outbursts began around the time he started full day school.. even a bit when he started kindergarten. The time he spends away from me at school can get to him but I don't think he knows how to express that also when I had my youngest ds Jakobi had never spent any time away from me. He was my shadow when I gave birth to ds3 he wanted nothing to do with me for 2 days.. that was the two days my dh stayed home with us.. (I sent him back to work because I felt Jakobi needed to learn how to deal with another little one for my attention.) I sometimes wonder if this is the cause of his outbursts but then again I come back to how he has always been a very sensitive child so maybe it is just part of his personality. I also agree with you on not disqualifying his feelings because that would lead to a form of repression and acting out. It is difficult when it is thrown at me not to respond that way and I have tried to hold back.. once he calms down some (with me rocking and soothing him) we discuss how he is feeling when he says things like that. After his outburst tonight he helped me cook dinner and seems to be perfectly fine.. a normal child. I am definitely going to be very proactive in finding someone to help him and is that the name of the book you refer to? I may look into getting my hands on a copy... going off instincts and intuition only goes so far. Thanks so much for your insights I am glad I have a place to go to for experiences such as these.


----------



## ~Demeter~ (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Starflower* 







I'm sorry you are having to go through this. I agree with the PP's who suggested finding a child psych (ped's office is a good start for referrals). I think it's smart of you to take this seriously, escpecially considering your familial history. And I think PiePie has a good point about calling for a referral since sometimes it can be hard to get into places. This is definitely an ASAP kind of situation.

I had a friend in 5th grade who wanted to kill herself. To my knowledge she never actually tried, but those feelings are real whether or not they are ever acted upon. (She's doing very well these days.)

Another personal note, my brother is bipolar and has been since childhood but they didn't diagnose him until age 18. My parents didn't know what to do with him and never found an appropriate person to help him until much later in life. I think our family would've been much better off if they'd been able to find Mike the help he needed as a child, but it just wasn't available back then where we lived.

Your DS is lucky to have a mama like you, who takes his feelings seriously and who can help him find the help he needs to get through this difficult time - and with any mental health issues he may have.

Keep holding him and hang in there, mama.









I am glad your brother eventually found help.. I am sure that was difficult growing up with. I was that child in 5th grade that felt that way as well... I had no one to talk and was in and out of counseling but they sided with my stepmother and laid blame all on me. I eventually started cutting and while I have "outgrown" that and have learned to cope with my own emotions it kills me to see my son feeling that same way. I always swore I didn't want my children to feel the way I did while growing up and have done everything in my power to raise them differently and better than I was. I am trying to do my best.







Thanks for the response and support..


----------



## mamaverdi (Apr 5, 2005)

How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk is a fairly good book. Psych or neurology eval might also be good. Also the food could be that he is hungry and likes sweets. Does he eat much at school?

I find sometimes "simple things", like getting more food into them, helps my boys or other children I am with, more able to cope.

I also wonder if he knows what death means. "I want to die" absent self-injury attempts...may mean: I want to escape. I want out of how I feel now. Not, I never want to come back, and I understand what that means.

I agree seeking very fast action is appropriate. And going through your ped, working as a team, is a great approach.







again.


----------



## infraread (Jun 3, 2003)

to you Mama.

When my little brother was 7, he started to tie his shirts into nooses at school and try to hang himself, talk about suicide, and would make "wish I were dead" statements. It is absolutely terrifying, makes you feel so helpless








I realize no two children are alike, but I wanted to give you a little insight to my experience, maybe something will help you with your DS.

First, you're not failing your child. Ignoring it in the hope that it will all go away would be failing him, you're asking for help! My brother (now 13) is an undiagnosed Aspie. It wasn't until grief counseling earlier this year (after our mom died) that this was recognized by anyone officially. Probably because he's "quirky," he was severely bullied in school by both other kids and by faculty who labled him things like "defiant, stupid, and lazy." Anyway, my point here is, is he being bullied or picked on? It's something to watch out for and if so, definitely something you can help him with.

Also, I wholeheartedly agree with the poster who said not to tell him he doesn't mean it. He may or may not understand the context of what he's saying, but he is hurting and asking for help with something that's so overwhelming to him that he can't define it. He's not going to hear what you mean, he's going to get the message that he's not good enough to know his own thoughts. Even if he really doesn't mean it, that's his cry for help. No matter what his feelings are, he needs you to recognize them. The more you're able to do this, the more he's going to be able to express himself.

Please do make an appointment for a psych evaluation for him. Find someone who specializes in children, if only to get a handle on where this is coming from and ideas of how to deal with it.
Good luck to you Mama.


----------



## nikisager (Oct 25, 2005)

I am only going to share this because I am hoping it helps,I dont normally because it just isnt something you go telling people kwim? My now alsmot 13 yo ds started at 6 years old with a violent streak like you wouldnt believe. He threatened to kill himself, tried to kill himself, has bashed me over the head with metal chairs, jumped out a closed window to kill himself, hit me in the head with a 2x4, the list goes on. For about 5 years our home was very very scarey. And tho I am probably gonna get bashed for this next thing, I even felt the need to lock him in his room at night for his safety, the safety of my other children and my safety. Before I knew better and all this started I let the drs put him in a hospital, and give him meds, he was sooooooooo much worse!!!!!!! It happened once, I swore never again. He has since "grown" out of it to speak, but not because of growing up. I have worked extremaly hard with him thru all these years to help HIM understand when those feeling are coming, what to do with those feelings, and what triggers those feelings. My son has been diagnosed with a slew of crap because of it, and yeah, maybe he is some of them, but those labels mean nothing to me and nothing to my son. We both know he has issues, but we have worked around them so that he can live a normal life so to speak. It has only been the past year that he has been "ok". Now he still has times of depression, but the violence is gone. I think in situations like these, we as mothers, as families have to "learn" how to reteach out children whatever it is in them that they have learned the wrong way. I honeslty believe my ds's was a hormone issue, yes even at 6 yo. It was horrible, I hate to say that but its the truth. At any age, suicide talk or threats are not to be taken light, even if you think they are not old enuff to understand what they are talking about, which they probably are not, but the results of thier actions are real, kwim? Do what your heart tells you to do, rethink how you do EVERYTHING because even if there seems to be no reason that you can see for the actions, to her there is, find those reasons and nip them as soon as possible.

ok, sorry for the long rambling, spelling probs and so on......... hugs to you and your family mamma!!!


----------



## ~Demeter~ (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaverdi* 







How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk is a fairly good book. Psych or neurology eval might also be good. Also the food could be that he is hungry and likes sweets. Does he eat much at school?

I find sometimes "simple things", like getting more food into them, helps my boys or other children I am with, more able to cope.

I also wonder if he knows what death means. "I want to die" absent self-injury attempts...may mean: I want to escape. I want out of how I feel now. Not, I never want to come back, and I understand what that means.

I agree seeking very fast action is appropriate. And going through your ped, working as a team, is a great approach.







again.

His typical lunch for school is a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, a fresh fruit and a treat be it a snack cake (trying to get my dh to stop buying the dang things!!!) or a slice of fresh banana bread or a homebaked cookie. He also has a morning snack in class and when he gets home they are usually hungry and I give them a snack. Today we didn't do that so maybe that is in part my fault that he was being sneaky about the snack cakes.

Today after he said that I talked to him about what dying means. We have talked about this sort of thing before but I think at his age it is not something that sticks. Being dead doesn't quite mean the same everytime. I explain to him how sad I would be if that actually happened and how important and special he is to our family. Being special is very important to him. He is always asking me if he does such and such the best.. or if this is better than that. While I know that is somewhat normal for children his age I don't want to encourage it. I make him feel special in his own right but special as a person not the material possessions he has or things like that. I think I am rambling now so I will say thank you for your insight and suggestions.


----------



## mamaverdi (Apr 5, 2005)

Nic, I think you are doing a great job. And while I would cautious with pscyh evals, etc, I would *not* ignore professional help with this issue. Especially if you already have a good pediatrician whom you trust, then you are one step ahead of the game.







again.


----------



## ~Demeter~ (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *infraread* 







to you Mama.

When my little brother was 7, he started to tie his shirts into nooses at school and try to hang himself, talk about suicide, and would make "wish I were dead" statements. It is absolutely terrifying, makes you feel so helpless








I realize no two children are alike, but I wanted to give you a little insight to my experience, maybe something will help you with your DS.

First, you're not failing your child. Ignoring it in the hope that it will all go away would be failing him, you're asking for help! My brother (now 13) is an undiagnosed Aspie. It wasn't until grief counseling earlier this year (after our mom died) that this was recognized by anyone officially. Probably because he's "quirky," he was severely bullied in school by both other kids and by faculty who labled him things like "defiant, stupid, and lazy." Anyway, my point here is, is he being bullied or picked on? It's something to watch out for and if so, definitely something you can help him with.

Also, I wholeheartedly agree with the poster who said not to tell him he doesn't mean it. He may or may not understand the context of what he's saying, but he is hurting and asking for help with something that's so overwhelming to him that he can't define it. He's not going to hear what you mean, he's going to get the message that he's not good enough to know his own thoughts. Even if he really doesn't mean it, that's his cry for help. No matter what his feelings are, he needs you to recognize them. The more you're able to do this, the more he's going to be able to express himself.

Please do make an appointment for a psych evaluation for him. Find someone who specializes in children, if only to get a handle on where this is coming from and ideas of how to deal with it.
Good luck to you Mama.

Thankyou for sharing your story. I am going to work on validating his feelings. I have told him already it is ok to be angry, sad.. hurt whatever and that he is more than welcome when he feels that way to curl up on my lap and talk about them. It has taken me this long to work to that point and he hasn't had outbursts lately.. this came out of the blue. I was actually going to bring up Asperger's when I went in.. from what I have read on it (the little that I have) it seems as though it "could" be him but then again he seems to be more highly sensitive than anything else. I don't want to label him but definitely want to get to the root of his emotional problems. Thanks again.


----------



## ~Demeter~ (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaverdi* 







Nic, I think you are doing a great job. And while I would cautious with pscyh evals, etc, I would *not* ignore professional help with this issue. Especially if you already have a good pediatrician whom you trust, then you are one step ahead of the game.







again.









: Wow mama you make me feel better about things.. thanks for being so supportive.. I feel like such a sap but I am getting all teary. I think I have the best ped around in my area.. I know he will be very helpful. thanks so much again I can't tell you what it means to me.


----------



## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mumof3Nic* 
IAt times I wonder if he says those things to get attention as harsh as that sounds.

No, I don't think that sounds harsh at all. Chances are, he IS doing it (at least in part) for attention. I used to think (before being a mama) that a child doing something strictly "for attention" was a bad thing. Now I think differently-- if a child needs attention and is asking for it, then I need to honor that without judging. (I am not saying you are judging!) In other words, a child acting out to get attention is trying to wave a flag and say, "Hey, I need you!" So many of us were raised to believe that being needy is a negative thing; for me it took taking a step back and realizing that it is OK when a child does it, and I need to respond (which you are doing!).

Good luck with the doctor . . .you might want to place a call tomorrow to let your doctor know why you are coming in. Maybe that way they can have referrals ready for you by Friday.

Your DS and family are in my thoughts!


----------



## momz3 (May 1, 2006)

I couldn't read and not post.







I am so sorry this is happening. I can not really offer any advice besides what the majority has said, seek professional help. You, your son and your family are in my thoughts and prayers


----------



## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

mama i have no advice to offer. but i wanted to share my fears with u. we have mental illness on both sides fo the family. my dd is extremely mature for her age, understands too much yet does not have the emotional maturity to handle what she sees. seh has been obsessed with death since she was 3. and i so feared a bipolar diagnosis. or doing something wrong that would bring on depresssion on her.

and then i met a mom whose youngest son was just like my dd when her age. and he was diagnosed with bipolar at age 16. i cannot tell u mama how much peace of mind i have received from that mama. and my fears are gone. she never said it was easy but there was no blame. both mother and son grew extremely close and they fight the battle together. as they deal with teh drugs adn side effects she feels she is right there with her son dealing with his issues. weight issues and all. he figured out he does need teh medications. but the mom instead of focusing on the negative gave me examples of the journey together. how they totally were one being due to this. i was in awe of what this mom shared. and the strength she gave me - that no matter what they will work on that journey together. no matter how bad it is - he is never, ever alone.

i was so able to release my fears after spending time with the mom. to see someone live thru one of my fears and say it was ok was one of the best things that have happened tome. really uplifted me.


----------



## boysrus (Dec 2, 2001)

Have you looked into his school situation? IS there any bullying or emotional abuse from other kids happening there?


----------



## ~Demeter~ (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *boysrus* 
Have you looked into his school situation? IS there any bullying or emotional abuse from other kids happening there?

From what I can see and what he tells me not really. He doesn't have alot of friends exactly but has a few. I think because he is naturally just a pretty quiet kid that it takes him awhile to warm up to people so he doesn't appear very receptive to others at first. He doesn't seem bothered by this though.. and has a few friends that he talks about regularly. He likes school and really loves his teacher. He does well in class, I am going in for a conference with his teacher next week and I will definitely be asking if she has noticed anything going on as well.


----------



## ~Demeter~ (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *meemee* 
mama i have no advice to offer. but i wanted to share my fears with u. we have mental illness on both sides fo the family. my dd is extremely mature for her age, understands too much yet does not have the emotional maturity to handle what she sees. seh has been obsessed with death since she was 3. and i so feared a bipolar diagnosis. or doing something wrong that would bring on depresssion on her.

and then i met a mom whose youngest son was just like my dd when her age. and he was diagnosed with bipolar at age 16. i cannot tell u mama how much peace of mind i have received from that mama. and my fears are gone. she never said it was easy but there was no blame. both mother and son grew extremely close and they fight the battle together. as they deal with teh drugs adn side effects she feels she is right there with her son dealing with his issues. weight issues and all. he figured out he does need teh medications. but the mom instead of focusing on the negative gave me examples of the journey together. how they totally were one being due to this. i was in awe of what this mom shared. and the strength she gave me - that no matter what they will work on that journey together. no matter how bad it is - he is never, ever alone.

i was so able to release my fears after spending time with the mom. to see someone live thru one of my fears and say it was ok was one of the best things that have happened tome. really uplifted me.

A strong bond is beneficial in circumstances like these.. was your dd dx with bipolar? It would be nice to have someone to talk to about things like this if it turns out to be something such as that. I would hope that my boys would never feel they are going it alone.. I strive to make that something they know and feel. Thanks for sharing your story.


----------



## ~Demeter~ (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momz3* 
I couldn't read and not post.







I am so sorry this is happening. I can not really offer any advice besides what the majority has said, seek professional help. You, your son and your family are in my thoughts and prayers

Thankyou for responding.. I appreciate the support.


----------



## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

*


----------



## Roar (May 30, 2006)

This may be obvious in which case skip it, but I wanted to suggest that you have a plan for talking to the doctor alone. Your son may feel criticized or ashamed or less inclined to share in the future, if he overhears an honest conversation about this with the doctor. I would request to speak to the doctor alone so you are able to share all of what is going on without worrying that your son may misinterpret your concerns as a sign he's in trouble.

I would encourage you to ask for a referral to a child psychologist or a social worker for help with this. Even if the suicide threats aren't real or if he doesn't understand what it means to say he wants to die, the underlying pain he is feeling is real and he deserves more help and support with that. I know some people fear all mental health professionals, but there are really good folks out there who can help and getting help early is a good idea.


----------



## celia (Apr 22, 2005)

I don't have any advice that wasn't already given. I just wanted to offer








It must be so painful to see your baby hurting this way.


----------



## kyndmamaof4 (Jul 25, 2006)

I agree with the PP about seeking help. I'm a little leary of giving Rx meds to a child...think about having him teseted for imbalances-chemical or hormonal. I would insist on it. We are dealing with issues with DS#2 as well. He is only 4, so we have a bit of time yet before he goes to school, but before you get in the whole meds cycle, get him checked out...I know that Dr. Phil isn't popular on this site,







: but check out his website about dealing with children with emotional problems and ADHD-I understand that probably isn't what's going on here, but he talks about you need to see what is going on inside the body-scans, blood tests etc. BEFORE you ever give meds to children. If it is hormonal, and they give the wrong meds, it could only make things worse. That's what I would do For Sure. IMHO Meds should only be considered after all other routes have been exhausted.

That's my .02 cents, take it FWIW, kaara








We are here for ya, so let us know how he's doing. OK?


----------



## ~Demeter~ (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lotusdebi* 
When I was 7 years old, I started cutting myself, starving myself, and I attempted suicide for the first time. I was an extremely sensitive child, and just getting a B- in Handwriting or detention during recess was enough to make me fall into a major depression and try to hurt or kill myself. I felt like I had to live up to all these expectations - my parents, my teachers - and if I couldn't, I was worthless.
I was finally diagnosed with bipolar disorder when I was 14. Even on meds, seeing therapists and psychiatrists, I still attempted suicide numerous times.
I recently celebrated my 10 year anniversary of the last time I attempted suicide. But I still think of suicide as an escape from pain. I still see cutting as a way to relieve pain. I spent so many years in that mindset, that it became my default. I still have to fight the urge to escape from my pain.
When I was 18 and a summer camp counselor, an 8 year old girl at the camp tried to kill herself. She went to the bathroom, and tied a plastic bag over her head to suffocate herself. Her counselor brushed it off as an attention-seeking behavior. Having been there, that response upset me a great deal. The only way that kind of behavior should ever be considered attention-seeking is by looking at it as a cry for help. I was the only person at the camp to take the girl seriously. I sat down with her and talked with her, and found out that she was being abused and neglected at home. She felt worthless, and was acting on those feelings. I'm sure it didn't help that the people at camp treated her as though she was a bad kid, and - when she cried out for help - dismissed her.
I share these stories because you need to know that there are a number of kids out there who do feel the need to escape their lives, for a variety of reasons. Meds didn't help me, and I finally gave up on them shortly before I got pregnant with my son. My son is high-risk for depression, bipolar, and schizophrenia. Though he shows strong signs of mania, I won't put him on meds. I'm figuring out other ways to treat him. But, that's my choice as his mother. I don't think that psychopharmaceuticals are healthy for children whose brains are still developing, and I also have to be concerned about how drugs may change my son's brain to possibly make it more likely that he ends up with a worse disease than bipolar - like schizophrenia. I will take him to a therapist when he shows signs of needing someone to talk to about what he's going through. But, we're not there yet.
I strongly encourage you to take your son seriously. Very seriously. Be there for him. Understand him and his pain. However you deal with this - medications, therapy, etc. - do it with open eyes. Read up on mental illness. Look at the effects and side effects of meds. Look at alternatives. DO NOT just trust ANY doctor to tell you how to treat your child. My mother trusted doctors and counselors who claimed knowledge, but were really clueless about my bipolar disorder. They convinced her that I was on drugs (I wasn't), and needed tough love. That resulted in me being abused and kicked out of the house. I was homeless at age 16, because of the advice of "mental health professionals." Be very careful when considering the advice of anyone who doesn't know your child as well as you do.
Dealing with a mentally ill child is difficult. And you may feel emotionally exhausted and frustrated and at the end of your rope sometimes. But, keep in mind that your son is feeling even worse - to the point where he can't deal with the pain other than by considering death. People with mood disorders feel emotions much stronger than "normal" people. I like to describe it as though the emotional range can be measured by the letters of the alphabet. A "normal" person feels the range of emotions of JKLMNOPQ, with J being as sad as you can get, and Q being as happy as you can get. A person with Depression feels the range of emotions of ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQ, with A as sad as you can get, and Q as happy as you can get. A person with Bipolar Disorder feels the range of emotions of ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ, with A being as sad (or depressed) as you can get, and Z being as happy (or manic) as you can get. This isn't as accurate as I'd like, since with bipolar you also often have mixed episodes which are like throwing ABC and XYZ together in some soup of insanity, but I think it helps people without mood disorders to understand that some of us just feel MORE than they do. Much more. And those extremes are scary as hell.
If your son suffers from a mood disorder, you really need to understand what that means. You need to be sensitive to his experiences of emotions. Just because it's outside of what you may be capable of feeling, doesn't mean that he can't feel it.
I hope this helps in some way. I don't mean to be harsh, but I'd hate for your son to go through what I went through, or what so many others have gone through. I almost didn't survive my last suicide attempt. My uncle, my cousin, and my friend didn't survive theirs. Take great care with your son.
Good luck!

I understand what bipolar disorder is and what happens and the extremes. I also understand depression and self mutilation because I was like that when I was younger. I am not very trusting of doctors in general but know his ped will be a wonderful resource for me. I don't know how exactly we will go about helping him and I know him saying that isn't exactly attention-seeking but a cry for help. I honestly think like someone else said it is more of him saying I don't want to feel this way anymore I want to escape from this emotion. While I may sound close minded about the psychological aspect of this I am not just leary if that makes any sense. Thankyou for sharing your story it was very insightful and will definitely be kept in mind while we are working a plan to help him.


----------



## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

I really think you should get him some professional help as soon as possible. Like, today, if you can. It's never too soon, but sometimes it's too late.








I can't imagine going through this with a child so young, or any family member for that matter. Please don't blame yourself. That's just wasting energy. Get him in to see someone who can help him sort out these thoughts.


----------



## ~Demeter~ (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
This may be obvious in which case skip it, but I wanted to suggest that you have a plan for talking to the doctor alone. Your son may feel criticized or ashamed or less inclined to share in the future, if he overhears an honest conversation about this with the doctor. I would request to speak to the doctor alone so you are able to share all of what is going on without worrying that your son may misinterpret your concerns as a sign he's in trouble.

I would encourage you to ask for a referral to a child psychologist or a social worker for help with this. Even if the suicide threats aren't real or if he doesn't understand what it means to say he wants to die, the underlying pain he is feeling is real and he deserves more help and support with that. I know some people fear all mental health professionals, but there are really good folks out there who can help and getting help early is a good idea.

I was actually just going over this in my head.. I don't think I want him in the room with me while discussing this with his doctor. I don't think that would be very helpful at all and if anything it will make him feel like there is something "wrong" with him and that goes against everything him and I have worked so hard to achieve. I was told to look into a psychologist not a psychiatrist.. I am attempting to keep an open mind about it all. Thanks for your advice.


----------



## ~Demeter~ (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kyndmamaof4* 
I agree with the PP about seeking help. I'm a little leary of giving Rx meds to a child...think about having him teseted for imbalances-chemical or hormonal. I would insist on it. We are dealing with issues with DS#2 as well. He is only 4, so we have a bit of time yet before he goes to school, but before you get in the whole meds cycle, get him checked out...I know that Dr. Phil isn't popular on this site,







: but check out his website about dealing with children with emotional problems and ADHD-I understand that probably isn't what's going on here, but he talks about you need to see what is going on inside the body-scans, blood tests etc. BEFORE you ever give meds to children. If it is hormonal, and they give the wrong meds, it could only make things worse. That's what I would do For Sure. IMHO Meds should only be considered after all other routes have been exhausted.

That's my .02 cents, take it FWIW, kaara








We are here for ya, so let us know how he's doing. OK?

I definitely agree with on the meds being an option after all else has been tried. My ped also holds this opinion as well.. My oldest son was dx ADHD so I know all about dealing with that and we tried meds and now we are med free. Sometimes children develop maturity and those things are left behind for ds1 that was the case and while he still has his moments he truly has grown into himself. I will definitely mention to his ped about imbalances and check those out first. Thanks for your reply







I am taking notes from all you wonderfully supportive mama's.


----------



## ~Demeter~ (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *becoming* 
I really think you should get him some professional help as soon as possible. Like, today, if you can. It's never too soon, but sometimes it's too late.








I can't imagine going through this with a child so young, or any family member for that matter. Please don't blame yourself. That's just wasting energy. Get him in to see someone who can help him sort out these thoughts.

We are going in tomorrow.. that was as soon as I could get in to see his doctor. (at least the one I like and trust.) I am trying not to blame myself.. at times it is really hard especially after going through an "episode". (it feels weird to call it that because it is him expressing how he feels but that is the best term I can use to describe it) Thanks for your thoughts.


----------



## Sylith (Apr 15, 2002)

I'm another one who suffered depression from childhood. By 7 or 8, I had suicidal ideation; I'd fantasize about ways I could kill myself.

My family of origin was not big on free expression of negative emotions, if you know what I mean. They knew something was "wrong" but I was literally unable to talk about it, too out of touch with my own feelings to even realize that how I felt was not normal.

I was an adult, out of my parents' house before I got help, and got better. But, I did get better, and I am a functional person with a satisfying life.

I believe you're doing so much better for your son than my parents did for me.


----------



## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

Nic- I'm not sure I can add anything new here. But I'm 38 y.o. and I have bipolar disorder, and my 7 y.o. ds will probably have it, too. I'm not presuming your son has bipolar. But I want to reiterate what others have said, that this isn't your 'fault' and that you're doing the right things. Please come back here and share with us what's going on with your dear child.

===========================

And Lotusdebi, I LOVE you alphabet analogy! May I borrow it?


----------



## ~Demeter~ (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Sylith* 
I'm another one who suffered depression from childhood. By 7 or 8, I had suicidal ideation; I'd fantasize about ways I could kill myself.

My family of origin was not big on free expression of negative emotions, if you know what I mean. They knew something was "wrong" but I was literally unable to talk about it, too out of touch with my own feelings to even realize that how I felt was not normal.

I was an adult, out of my parents' house before I got help, and got better. But, I did get better, and I am a functional person with a satisfying life.

I believe you're doing so much better for your son than my parents did for me.

Thankyou for sharing your experience. I am lucky for the main part my family was and it has taught me to be very communicative and expressive. My dh's family was not and it has taken me our full 8 yrs to get him to understand why we need to express our emotions and not stuff them in. It is wonderful to know that you got better and are functional I have faith that Jakobi will be as well. Thanks for making me feel a bit better about how I am responding to him and his needs.. it's hard not to constantly question myself right now.


----------



## AuntNi (Feb 26, 2003)

I have no advice for you, but I just wanted to say that I'm thinking about you.









Also, your DS is very very lucky to have you for a mama! Thank goodness he has a mama who takes him seriously, and is willing to do whatever it takes to get him help.

Hugs,


----------



## ~Demeter~ (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *journeymom* 
Nic- I'm not sure I can add anything new here. But I'm 38 y.o. and I have bipolar disorder, and my 7 y.o. ds will probably have it, too. I'm not presuming your son has bipolar. But I want to reiterate what others have said, that this isn't your 'fault' and that you're doing the right things. Please come back here and share with us what's going on with your dear child.

===========================

And Lotusdebi, I LOVE you alphabet analogy! May I borrow it?

I will definitely update tomorrow after I know a bit more and how we progress with things from there. Thanks for your reply and supportive vibe, I (we) appreciate it.

I love the alphabet analogy too.. definitely not something I have heard in comparison. Unique and easy for the most part to understand.


----------



## ~Demeter~ (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AuntNi* 
I have no advice for you, but I just wanted to say that I'm thinking about you.









Also, your DS is very very lucky to have you for a mama! Thank goodness he has a mama who takes him seriously, and is willing to do whatever it takes to get him help.

Hugs,

Thanks







Nichole. ( I am a Nichole too







) I hope he feels that way as well..


----------



## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)




----------



## pinky (Nov 21, 2001)

I'm sorry you're having such a hard time. This must be very scary for you.

Granted, I am speaking as a (former-turned-SAHM) mental health professional, but I really think that seeking professional help is so important to help your family through this difficult time. A family therapist, social worker, someone who can do play therapy with your son...my only advice is even though you are in need of help soon, it's okay to be picky and choose someone you can really trust and work with. All therapists are not created equal, and you deserve someone who is a good fit for your family.

In terms of assessing your ds's actual risk for acting on his ideas, the most basic thing is to ask him what his plan is for hurting himself. This may seem scary, but it won't put ideas in his head...if they're there, they're there. Most likely, he doesn't have a specific plan about what he would do...and that's a really good sign. If he DOES have a specific plan, you can address that in order to keep him safe.

Have you thought about having a safety contract with your son? This is a pretty standard thing to do it therapeutic situations, and I have used it with clients as young as your ds. Basically you write a contract in which he agrees not to hurt himself, and come up with a plan for what he will do if he's feeling like he may hurt himself. This provides both a practical way to help keep him safe and communicates how important it is to you that he stay safe.

I hope this is a little helpful and that you get some good referrals from your doctor tomorrow!

Hugs, mama.


----------



## ~Demeter~ (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pinky* 
I'm sorry you're having such a hard time. This must be very scary for you.

Granted, I am speaking as a (former-turned-SAHM) mental health professional, but I really think that seeking professional help is so important to help your family through this difficult time. A family therapist, social worker, someone who can do play therapy with your son...my only advice is even though you are in need of help soon, it's okay to be picky and choose someone you can really trust and work with. All therapists are not created equal, and you deserve someone who is a good fit for your family.

In terms of assessing your ds's actual risk for acting on his ideas, the most basic thing is to ask him what his plan is for hurting himself. This may seem scary, but it won't put ideas in his head...if they're there, they're there. Most likely, he doesn't have a specific plan about what he would do...and that's a really good sign. If he DOES have a specific plan, you can address that in order to keep him safe.

Have you thought about having a safety contract with your son? This is a pretty standard thing to do it therapeutic situations, and I have used it with clients as young as your ds. Basically you write a contract in which he agrees not to hurt himself, and come up with a plan for what he will do if he's feeling like he may hurt himself. This provides both a practical way to help keep him safe and communicates how important it is to you that he stay safe.

I hope this is a little helpful and that you get some good referrals from your doctor tomorrow!

Hugs, mama.
















have asked him something similar.. he has no plans at all. He says this at times of extreme emotion and he told me he feels that way because he doesn't like when people are "mean" to him. I have heard differing opinions on the safety contract.. I am iffy. Right now I feel my most important role is mainly to comfort him and to teach him better ways to deal with his emotions. If this behaviour continues then I might consider the safety contract or if it comes up at the doctors office.. Thankyou though for your insight professional and otherwise I will keep in them mind your suggestions for future use.


----------



## ~Demeter~ (Jul 22, 2006)

I took him into the ped today the Dr. asked me a few questions I think more or less to feel me out and to see how we have been handling this at home. It seems everything I am doing is on the right track and he told me not to be overly alarmed. He gave me a referral to a child psychiatrist but said only to call when I felt it was too much to handle by myself. I am quite comfortable with this decision and I may start looking for a counselor of some sort Jakobi can talk to. Thanks for all the support, thoughts, insight and kind words.







If things change I will let you know.


----------



## talk de jour (Apr 21, 2005)

That is so scary, mama


----------



## littleteapot (Sep 18, 2003)

All suicide attempts are cries for attention - why else does one commit suicide but for a feeling of being lost, overwhelmed and alone?

At 7 years old I also started cutting and first attempted suicide. I still have the scars. My mother took my words very seriously and I got help from a psychologist that was oriented in play therapy - it was the best thing that ever happened to me.
Then he moved and I saw a child psych who was formal, strict and uncaring - she set me back years and I ended up in a mental institution by 9 on "suicide watch". Make sure that whoever your son talks to is warm and understanding of children. Listen to everything he says, hear him, understand him, love him, support him... and if he ever says he doesn't like the psych or is uncomfortable with him/her? CHANGE!


----------



## ~Demeter~ (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *littleteapot* 
All suicide attempts are cries for attention - why else does one commit suicide but for a feeling of being lost, overwhelmed and alone?

At 7 years old I also started cutting and first attempted suicide. I still have the scars. My mother took my words very seriously and I got help from a psychologist that was oriented in play therapy - it was the best thing that ever happened to me.
Then he moved and I saw a child psych who was formal, strict and uncaring - she set me back years and I ended up in a mental institution by 9 on "suicide watch". Make sure that whoever your son talks to is warm and understanding of children. Listen to everything he says, hear him, understand him, love him, support him... and if he ever says he doesn't like the psych or is uncomfortable with him/her? CHANGE!

Thankyou for your reply. He has not attempted suicide and I hope he never does! When he feels intense emotions like anger and hurt at the same time he has expressed the desire to die. I listen to him, hear him, try to understand, love him and most of all support him and if it came down to psych intervention I would definitely look for someone that is relaxed and attentive and caring. I think at this time pulling in an outside party would be devastating to him because it would make him feel like something is "wrong" with him. He is a natural worrier (like me







) and doesn't handle being singled out very well. If his behaviour and "outbursts" continue or become intense then I will definitely seek out someone to help him. I truly feel that his ped and I have made a good decision based on what has been going on with him. I probably wouldn't have even remembered to bring it up at his doctor's appt because it has been almost a year since the last time he said that and when I posted this thread I was really scared. I have been working with him at home and looking back on the past year he has grown emotionally leaps and bounds and I suppose having setbacks happens and we need to take them in stride. I am definitely going to purchase the book that was mentioned earlier in this thread as I believe I can learn something from it. But above all else I am following my gut instinct with him and loving him as much as I can right now.


----------



## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Quote:



Originally Posted by *Mumof3Nic*


My 7 yr old ds has said he wants to kill himself or die on numerous occasions within the past year. At first I didn't really "react" other than to tell him he doesn't mean that and explaining to him how sad everybody in his life would be if he were to do this.


This sounds frightening, devastating and overwhelming to hear from the child you love. I want to express the necessity to honor and embrace his big feelings and not negate or dismiss them by telling him he doesn't mean that. From my experience, having my parents deny the REAL feelings that I had caused me to question the intensity of my feelings, and myself. I knew I was feeling intense anger, hatred or even violence; but to have my reality too overwhelming for them to support me, left me feeling alone. I want to encourage you to read "How To Talk so Kids Will Listen, and How to Listen so Kids Will Talk", or "Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves". They both discuss the huge need to validate our children's feelings as REAL, strong and scary.

I understand that hearing these big emotions is scary for you. I imagine, like me, you were told as a child to 'stop acting like that', 'be quiet, or you'll have something to cry about', 'that didn't hurt, doesn't matter, quit expressing your feelings', or some semblance of 'repress your feelings, I can't deal with them'. Please, please, please consider reading these books, they changed my life. For years, I was afraid of other's emotional outbursts. In childhood, anger and ugly feelings were associated with pain and punishment. We all have big emotions, learning how to express and survive them is something that we as parents can model. But, I have had to learn 'on-the-job', since I didn't have healthy expression of emotions taught,n or modelled in my family of origin.

Try to repeat what he says without judgment 'you want to die', 'you want to kill yourself', 'you are so upset at how much pain you have', 'you are so angry you want to hurt someone'. My experience is that others feel relieved that someone is *supporting* them to experience their big emotions safely. When we feel we are not alone, we are able to move through the emotions and process them based in reality. When we have our emotions denied, we are STUCK! We *know* what our body feels, but everyone is telling us 'don't feel that', 'you don't feel that', 'you shouldn't feel that', 'you can't feel that', 'it hurts me when you feel that'. Do you see the internal struggle that creates? Instead, choose to *hear* and *validate* the big emotions and listen. Just listen. He really needs someone to tell how much he hurts.

I appreciate your need to tell him how much you love him, how sad you would be if he were not a part of your life, how much everyone would miss him. Tell him these things as a positive affirmation, when he isn't hurting. 'I love you!', 'I am so glad you are a part of my life.', 'We all love having you in our lives.', etc.

Quote:



He says it when he feels people are being mean to him. It is really starting to scare me.


It sounds horrific to imagine hearing one's child wishing to be dead! It seems that he is overwhelmed by other's emotions; and the impact on him is intensly painful. Try to validate that; make it REAL, OK, and survivable with connection, support and love. I am sure that you do support him when he is hurting. But, the validation piece was totally new to me. I didn't realize how valuable it was to help me get through the raw emotions.

Quote:



Todays scenario started with him sneaking a treat, he did not ask and he hid it whilst going upstairs my 5yr old ds came down holding the cakes and told me his brother had taken them. I asked ds why did he do that and he had no answer for me so I said to him that he wouldn't get treats for the day if he felt he needed to steal them.


Well, this is complicated. Basically, it seems that he is feeling he needs to sneak to get what he wants; and then he gets in trouble for wanting it; and doesn't get it anyway. That sounds paralyzing. What is he to do? Just quit wanting the cake? When I want something and can't have it, it is really hard to 'quit wanting it'. I am 44. I guess it is really, really hard for a 7 year old to deny his wants. Personally, I don't believe that is healthy. We live consensually, so we work to find ways to meet the wants, needs and desires to mutual satisfaction. The fact that he couldn't have the cake, created the need to figure out how to get one anyway. This leads to sneaking. The sneaking doesn't happen when there is no reason to sneak. Then he is punished for wanting a cake. And gets none. Seems to me, I'd try to sneak and maybe get the cake too. The consequence is the same whether he sneaked or not: no cake. How can he have the cake and eat it too? Without sneaking? Can you find a way to understand what need he is trying to fill? Is he hungry? Wants a snack? Wants to get caught? Wants the attention of 'getting in trouble'? Wants the cake?

Quote:



We have dealt with this before and I have tried every conceivable way to stop this behaviour. I don't know what to do or how to react when he does things like this. I don't know if my reactions cause him to act this way or if he really does feel that way.


Would he act this way if he were able to eat the cake? Is the cake worth creating an adversarial relationship? How can you nurture a partnership which supports his needs for a sweet snack and your concern for healthy food choices (I am guessing here)? For instance, we have homemade cookies and cakes to which I add protein powder, flax seed, organic flour and other healthy ingredients, etc. I don't believe your reactions to the sneaking "cause" him to feel any particular way. But it sounds like he feels defeated and unable to get his wants met with you knowing about it. I would want our son to trust that I will work with him to help him to meet his needs, even when I disagree with them. I want to be a trusted advisor, not an obstacle to get around.

Quote:



He got to really crying when I asked him why he wanted to die and I sat holding and rocking him for an hour.. just holding him trying to take away his hurt. It makes me feel as if I failed somewhere but he has always been highly sensitive and easy to emotions like crying and anger.


You really do support him when he is expressing these heavy emotions. I wonder if this hour of holding and rocking could be given proactively? How would that alter your connection and trust? I find that when my ds isn't feeling connected to me, he has a much harder time hearing and considering my concerns. This is probably because when I am not connected to hearing and considering his concerns, such as when I am distracted, occupied or otherwise engaged, it is harder for me to listen. It becomes a vicious cycle. The two books I mentioned discuss proactively 'touching base' and reflective listening to maintain the connection between children and parents.

Do you know about The Highly Sensitive Child web site (and tribe in FYT)?: http://www.hsperson.com/pages/child.htm After being married 20 years, I learned that dh is highly sensitive. Ds is also. I am not. It has been a steep learning curve. There is another book: The Five Love Languages, that I found informative. Basically, we all receive love differently. We may be _giving_ love the way *we* receive it, but not be giving it the way _our child_ *receives* it. I found it fascinating and insightful.

Quote:



I have a doctors appointment on Friday for him a physical because I noticed he appears to walk the way I did when I was younger and it needed correction so I think I am going to bring this up to his doctor as well. What ways can I use to deal with these emotions as they come though in the interim?


I would discuss this with your son and see what he thinks. It is amazing what reflective listening and validation of our feelings can do to make life more pleasant. If your son feels that this is a pervasive issue of distress about life on a persistent basis, I'd certainly seek professional input. But, if he doesn't have a means of self-harm, has not verbalized an intent to self-harm, you might just discuss it privately with the doctor.

Quote:



Has anyone else experienced this? It scares me because my family has a history of depression, bipolar, drug and alcohol abuse and other various things like that. I am terrified this is just this beginning and it is going to be a struggle with him as he gets older.







: Am I doing something terribly wrong with him??


We have serious mental health issues on both sides of our family too. I understand your fears. I work hard not to live in fear and to take one day at a time. When I am connected with our son, life moves more smoothly for both of us.

I am glad that you posted. I hope that you continue to receive the support that you need.

Best wishes, Pat


----------



## cfiddlinmama (May 9, 2006)

Hey mama! I'm sorry you are going through this. It must be so scary. I just wanted to offer a little suggestion. There are these wonderful remedies called Flower Remedies. As the name suggests they are made from flowers. They work on the emotions and are amazing. There are so many different kinds for all different emotions. My ds1 was very angry after I weaned him (I didn't know about MDC at that time







) and the remedies helped him tremendously. Ds2 is very high needs. He has a lot of anger and gets violent sometimes. If I pay attention to his blood sugar and make sure he eats and give him his remedy he is better almost immediately. The common brand is Bach Flower Remedies, but there are lots of others. There is a great little book (you can probably get it from your HFS or online) that goes into each remedy and the emotion it helps. Usually the right one jumps right out at you! I have found them to be a great blessing in my life and I hope that they could help both you and your sons.

Also, I would recommend taking him to a kinesiologist. They use muscle testing to check for imbalances in the body and then the proper supplements/foods can be used to promote healing. Kinesiology has been a life saver with my ds2. I won't get into all his issues here, but he is drastically improved from a year ago. Let me know if you want more information.

I hope your situation gets better soon.


----------



## ~Demeter~ (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:



Originally Posted by *WuWei*


This sounds frightening, devastating and overwhelming to hear from the child you love. I want to express the necessity to honor and embrace his big feelings and not negate or dismiss them by telling him he doesn't mean that or guilting him for having his feelings. From my experience, having my parents deny the REAL feelings that I had caused me to question the intensity of my feelings and myself. I knew I was feeling intense anger, hatred or even violence; but to have my reality too overwhelming for them to support me left me feeling alone. I want to encourage you to read "How To Talk so Kids Will Listen, and How to Listen so Kids Will Talk" or "Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves". They both discuss the huge need to validate our children's feelings as REAL, strong and scary.


I am definitely going to look into the first book and I thankyou for the second referral.. will check into that one too. I do try to validate all my boys feelings.. even when I might not understand where exactly they are coming from it has been difficult at times to "retrain" myself and my emotions to understand where they are coming from and that occasional outbursts are acceptable.

Quote:



Try to repeat what he says without judgment 'you want to die', 'you want to kill yourself', 'you are so upset at how much pain you have', 'you are so angry you want to hurt someone'. My experience is that others feel relieved that someone is *supporting* them to experience their big emotions safely. When we feel we are not alone, we are able to move through the emotions and process them based in reality. When we have our emotions denied, we are STUCK! We *know* what our body feels, but everyone is telling us 'don't feel that', 'you don't feel that', 'you shouldn't feel that', 'you can't feel that', 'it hurts me when you feel that'. Do you see the internal struggle that creates? Instead, choose to *hear* and *validate* the big emotions and listen. Just listen. He really needs someone to tell how much he hurts.


Does holding him and telling him that it is ok to feel angry at times ok? Does explaining to him that even when we feel like that there are acceptable ways of expressing those emotions and unacceptable ways? Should I just let him express how he wants to express because I find that difficult at times just to sit back and watch. I have told him it hurts me when he feels that way.. because it does and I truly believe in being honest with my children and my emotions. I cry when I am holding him and tell him that.. he sees my emotions it is palpable to him. Does that make sense? And I do listen.. it is after I calm him and he is receptive that we have these conversations... while I am still holding him and comforting him.

Quote:



Tell him these things as a positive affirmation when he isn't hurtin. 'I love you!', 'I am so glad you are a part of my life.', 'We all love having you in our lives.', etc.


This is something that I do, do. I think it is extremely important to tell each of my children how much they are loved, how special they are everyday.. not always in the same way and not always in words.. but be it through touch or my voice I do express that to them.

Quote:



I am sure that you do support him when he is hurting. But, the validation piece was totally new to me. I didn't realize how valuable it was to help me get through the raw emotions.


This is something that at times I am sure that I do grapple with. I do try to validate but there are times when I find that difficult. I tell him that I understand he feels the way he does and that I am there for him.. this is a big step from last year when this first started and I was shocked and told him he shouldn't feel that way. I know now that was not the way to handle things.

Quote:



Well, this is complicated. Basically, he is feeling he needs to sneak to get what he wants, and then he gets in trouble for wanting it, and doesn't get it anyway. That sounds paralyzing. What is he to do? Just quit wanting the cake? When I want something and can't have it, it is really hard to 'quit wanting it'. I am 44. I guess it is really, really hard for a 7 year old to deny his wants. Personally, I don't believe that is healthy.


I see your point here and what it comes down to is dh bought them for their school lunches (not something I really agree with) and he had already had one for the day.. we don't have alot of money and if I let the boys eat whatever they want whenever they want we would have nothing left in 2 days. Does that make sense? We are trying to survive on one income, 2 weeks between paychecks and while not everything is set in stone it is hard to feed a family of 5 on little money and make it last. Had he asked for the cake it is quite possible because we at that time didn't have any homemade treats I may have said yes.. the principle of the issue is he didn't ask, blatantly lied when asked what he was doing in the kitchen and had he asked instead of the snack cakes I probably would have redirected with how bout some carrot sticks instead. I understand his need to want a snack after school, even a sweet one but sneaking around is not the way I want our family to be.

Quote:



Would he act this way if he were able to eat the cake? Is the cake worth creating an adversarial relationship? How can you nurture a partnership which supports his needs for a sweet snack and your concern for healthy food choices (I am guessing here)? For instance, we have homemade cookies and cakes to which I add protein powder, flax seed, organic flour and other healthy ingredients, etc. I don't believe your reactions to the sneaking "cause" him to feel any particular way. But it sounds like he feels defeated and unable to get his wants met with you knowing about it. I would want our son to trust that I will work with him to help him meet his needs, even when I disagree with them. I want to be a trusted advisor, not an obstacle to get around.


Again here you make sense.. and I will refer to my above response because it is essentially the same.

Quote:



You really do support him when he is expressing these heavy emotions. I wonder if this hour of holding and rocking could be given proactively? How would that alter your connection and trust? I find that when my ds isn't feeling connected to me, he has a much harder time hearing and considering my concerns. This is probably because I am not connected to hearing and considering his concerns, such as when I am distracted, occupied or otherwise engaged. It becomes a vicious cycle. The two books I mentioned discuss proactively 'touching base' and reflective listening to maintain the connection between children and parents.


The vicious cycle I can relate to.. unfortunately.







Not only with Jakobi but with my oldest as well. At times I feel when I have the time to tend to them they want nothing to do with me and when they have the time for me I am involved with taking care of something else. I do try to set aside time with them, each of them to snuggle or read or do something that is essential to them. I sometimes feel it is not enough and have been trying to really work at that to better my relationship with the boys.

Quote:



Do you know about The Highly Sensitive Child web site (and tribe in FYT)?: http://www.hsperson.com/pages/child.htm After being married 20 years, I learned that dh is highly sensitive. Ds is also. I am not. It has been a steep learning curve. There is another book: The Five Love Languages that I found informative. Basically, we all receive love differently. We may be giving love the way *we* receive it, but not be giving it the way our child *receives* it. I found it fascinating and insightful.


I actually have read The Five Love Languages. (wow I actually have read something someone else on here has) It was years ago and I wonder if I still have it around somewhere probably couldn't hurt to read it again. Thanks.

I only recently came across the description of the highly sensitve person.. I always knew Jakobi was sensitive, as a matter of fact all of my children are but in different ways.. Jakobi is more extreme.

Quote:



I would discuss this with your son and see what he thinks. It is amazing what reflective listening and validation of our feelings can do to make life more pleasant. If your son feels that this is a pervasive issue of distress about life on a persistent basis, I'd certainly seek professional input. But, if he doesn't have a means of self-harm, has not verbalized an intent to self-harm, you might just discuss it privately with the doctor.


I did discuss it with his doctor today.. he has no means of self harm, hasn't really said he would hurt himself just that he wants to die and again this is at times when I think he is angry, hurt and sad all at the same time. It is like a tornado inside and he doesn't know what to do with all those emotions at once I don't think. The doctor gave me a card for a psychiatrist but said he felt I was handling the situation fairly well and that if it continued or became worse then it would be time to see the psych.

Quote:



We have serious mental health issues in our family too. I understand your fears. I work hard not to live in fear and to take one day at a time. When I am connected with our son, life moves more smoothly for both of us.

I am glad that you posted. I hope that you continue to receive the support that you need.

Best wishes, Pat


Thankyou so much Pat for your very indepth response.. it definitely helped me to look at my parenting style and possibly make some more changes. I am always growing as a person and a parent and I feel the need to continue to evolve. It is people like you that make me think and reconsider ways I deal with situations. I truly appreciate your taking the time to analyse my post and give me some advice. I hope to read more of your posts and possible see what I can learn from you as a parent.







Thanks again!


----------



## ~Demeter~ (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *cfiddlinmama* 
Hey mama! I'm sorry you are going through this. It must be so scary. I just wanted to offer a little suggestion. There are these wonderful remedies called Flower Remedies. As the name suggests they are made from flowers. They work on the emotions and are amazing. There are so many different kinds for all different emotions. My ds1 was very angry after I weaned him (I didn't know about MDC at that time







) and the remedies helped him tremendously. Ds2 is very high needs. He has a lot of anger and gets violent sometimes. If I pay attention to his blood sugar and make sure he eats and give him his remedy he is better almost immediately. The common brand is Bach Flower Remedies, but there are lots of others. There is a great little book (you can probably get it from your HFS or online) that goes into each remedy and the emotion it helps. Usually the right one jumps right out at you! I have found them to be a great blessing in my life and I hope that they could help both you and your sons.

Also, I would recommend taking him to a kinesiologist. They use muscle testing to check for imbalances in the body and then the proper supplements/foods can be used to promote healing. Kinesiology has been a life saver with my ds2. I won't get into all his issues here, but he is drastically improved from a year ago. Let me know if you want more information.

I hope your situation gets better soon.









Is there a website out there for flower remedies??? That definitely sounds like something I would like to look into.. the way I see it can't hurt with any of my boys. What sort of supplement is it?

I just brought up the idea of seeing a Kinesiologist with my dh.. is that very costly?














hate to pause over cost but we are truly hurting at times with money but if it would help we would figure a way to do it.

Thankyou for your reply and support.







It is nice to hear of alternative methods to helping him get through this along with the love and support from his family.


----------



## lotusdebi (Aug 29, 2002)

*


----------



## ~Demeter~ (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lotusdebi* 
Flower Remedies: http://www.bachcentre.com/centre/remedies.htm









: thankyou so much you're a dear!


----------



## RubyWild (Apr 7, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mumof3Nic* 
I took him into the ped today the Dr. asked me a few questions I think more or less to feel me out and to see how we have been handling this at home. It seems everything I am doing is on the right track and he told me not to be overly alarmed. He gave me a referral to a child psychiatrist but said only to call when I felt it was too much to handle by myself. I am quite comfortable with this decision and I may start looking for a counselor of some sort Jakobi can talk to. Thanks for all the support, thoughts, insight and kind words.







If things change I will let you know.

Denying your son's feelings by telling him that he doesn't really feel that way is not the way to be handling this. I can understand saying this in surprise, but it's exactly the opposite of what needs to be said.

Small children can have overwhelming feelings and a lack of coping skills. Small children do suffer and some do commit suicide. Call that counselor.


----------



## lindberg99 (Apr 23, 2003)

I think I would take him into see someone. No offense to your pediatrician but how often does he see your son? A few minutes a couple times a year? He doesn't really know what is going on. So I would just use the referral he gave you. Look at it this way, it might help and it can't hurt anything, right?

I remember being pretty depressed as a child. I used to cry a lot about going to school, etc. And it wasn't really anything in particular at school, I think I was just depressed. I did "grow out of it" (or learned to handle it??). I remember one time when I was an adult my mom said she always wondered if she should have taken me to a psychologist when I was a kid. And I think she should have. My DD is 8 and is starting to show some anxiety issues (feeling overwhelmed, etc) and I am watching her pretty closely and will not hesitate to take her to a counselor if things seem to be getting worse.


----------



## ~Demeter~ (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RubyWild* 
Denying your son's feelings by telling him that he doesn't really feel that way is not the way to be handling this. I can understand saying this in surprise, but it's exactly the opposite of what needs to be said.

Small children can have overwhelming feelings and a lack of coping skills. Small children do suffer and some do commit suicide. Call that counselor.

I am not denying my son his feelings. I stated that was initially how I reacted but as time has gone on we have dealt with it differently. I realised that wasn't working and was obviously the wrong way to deal with the situation.

I know exactly what small children are capable of. It is a psychiatrist.. and I do not think at this time that is what he needs. As I stated in a couple previous posts I think that could actually be quite devastating to him right now. While I am not against professional help my gut instinct tells me that right now is not the time. I will continue to support my son and if I feel things are out of control or worse then I will take it to the next step.


----------



## ~Demeter~ (Jul 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lindberg99* 
I think I would take him into see someone. No offense to your pediatrician but how often does he see your son? A few minutes a couple times a year? He doesn't really know what is going on. So I would just use the referral he gave you. Look at it this way, it might help and it can't hurt anything, right?

I remember being pretty depressed as a child. I used to cry a lot about going to school, etc. And it wasn't really anything in particular at school, I think I was just depressed. I did "grow out of it" (or learned to handle it??). I remember one time when I was an adult my mom said she always wondered if she should have taken me to a psychologist when I was a kid. And I think she should have. My DD is 8 and is starting to show some anxiety issues (feeling overwhelmed, etc) and I am watching her pretty closely and will not hesitate to take her to a counselor if things seem to be getting worse.

Actually it could hurt.. it would single him out in a sense and I don't think that is what he needs right now. His ped has known me for over 11 yrs and seen my son since he was born. He might not see us all that often but he is an extremely wonderful, compassionate and empathic doctor.
I do not have my head in the sand about how serious something like this can be but also am trusting in my gut instinct and his sensitivity to know that he wouldn't understand going to a doctor that is going to pick apart things he is feeling. Does that make sense? I also saw quite a few counselors while growing up and despised it. A psychologist is far different than a psychiatrist and when and if that time comes I won't hesitate to take him in. I don't want people to think I am neglectful of his emotions because I am truly not.. I have my eyes open and know that something like this can be quite serious but also want to follow my instincts and they say right now isn't the time for bringing him in.


----------



## MissRubyandKen (Nov 2, 2005)

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Mumof3Nic*

My 7 yr old ds has said he wants to kill himself or die on numerous occasions within the past year. At first I didn't really "react" other than to tell him he doesn't mean that and explaining to him how sad everybody in his life would be if he were to do this. He says it when he feels people are being mean to him. It is really starting to scare me. Todays scenario started with him sneaking a treat, he did not ask and he hid it whilst going upstairs my 5yr old ds came down holding the cakes and told me his brother had taken them. I asked ds why did he do that and he had no answer for me so I said to him that he wouldn't get treats for the day if he felt he needed to steal them. We have dealt with this before and I have tried every conceivable way to stop this behaviour. I don't know what to do or how to react when he does things like this. I don't know if my reactions cause him to act this way or if he really does feel that way. He got to really crying when I asked him why he wanted to die and I sat holding and rocking him for an hour.. just holding him trying to take away his hurt. It makes me feel as if I failed somewhere but he has always been highly sensitive and easy to emotions like crying and anger. I have a doctors appointment on Friday for him a physical because I noticed he appears to walk the way I did when I was younger and it needed correction so I think I am going to bring this up to his doctor as well. What ways can I use to deal with these emotions as they come though in the interim? Has anyone else experienced this? It scares me because my family has a history of depression, bipolar, drug and alcohol abuse and other various things like that. I am terrified this is just this beginning and it is going to be a struggle with him as he gets older. Am I doing something terribly wrong with him??
*HUGS* Have you checked out the gentle discipline forum here?http://www.mothering.com/discussions...splay.php?f=36 It is an awesome resource full of loving, gentle mommas striving to find gentle, respectful ways to discipline (teach) their children while honoring their individual needs, wants, and personalities. All children are different. It sounds like your son is highly sensitive. My son is too. The mommas on the gd forum are dedicated to disciplining without punishing (whether physical or by removal of 'privileges'), shaming, or lecturing. Possibly if you post some specific examples, like your treat example, where you feel at a loss as to how to handle it and what to do you might get some wonderful ideas and insights there.

I would like to give you my thoughts about the treat example. Please know that I want to be helpful. I do not think that looking at this from a 'What am I doing wrong?', 'Am I to blame for this?' angle is helpful. Neither is feeling guilty over it and anguishing over what you have or haven't done particularly helpful. I understand as a mother having those feelings and letting them flow through but please be gentle on yourself and do not wallow in them momma.

I do think to look at it from the angle 'My son is not reacting positively to my discipline. What can I do differently next time that he may react more positively to? Is there something about my reaction that I can change that may help teach him what I am trying to impart without him feeling like he wants to die?'

I recognize that he is highly sensitive and how you interact with your other children may not result in the sensitive response that it does with your son. It sounds as though being told he was stealing something from his own home was devastating to him. It also sounds as if this isn't the first time something like this has happened. Because it is a recurring conflict and your ds is highly reactive to the way you reacted I would take a look at in depth look at it.

There are many other ways you could handle this particular conflict. One would be to not bring any more of the treats into the house at all. It didn't sound as though they were something the children were asking to have, rather that when they were already in the house and in view it was more than your ds could do to deny himself the treat he wanted. Sometimes we set our children up for failure when we know we are going to expect certain circumstances and behavior. When the child has repeatedly shown that they can not live up to the certain expectations we have choices. We can continue to expect it of them anyway, which is likely to set them up for failure. We can completely eliminate the conflict for the time being until we feel the child has matured enough to live up to the expectation. Think baby and toddler-proofing, quite similar to what I mean, we can expect the toddler to remember and act accordingly that the swimming pool is not to be went into without an adult or we can set up a gate so that the toddler cannot get into it.

It sounds as though you are expecting your son to not get into the treat. While this may be a reasonable expectation for you to have of another child, your son is having difficulty living up to that expectation. Is it lack of impulse control? Does he see the treat and want it and lacks the impulse control to stop his self from taking it?

Another way to handle it would be to talk to your son about the treats and the conflicts you are having surrounding them. Tell him all of your whys. Why it is bothering you. Why you feel it should be limited. Why the treats were bought. Then ask him if he has any ideas that might help solve the conflict of him wanting to have them when you don't want him to. Try to work together to come up with a solution that both of you can agree with. Sometimes it is better to handle these things before they happen, especially if it is recurring.

I want to tell you honestly that I would not bring a food into the house and tell the children they were stealing if they wanted to eat it. I do not bring food into the house that they are expected not to eat and that have rules surrounding them that might lead to them feeling the need to sneak the food. What we have we share, it is just as much theirs as it is mine, so I would not consider them wanting it and taking it stealing. That is quite a crime to compare eating a food in your own house to. Sometimes I buy a particular item to use in a specific dish, and I tell them exactly what I am buying it for. After I explain my reasons they understand I want it for a specific purpose. And if they did want that particular item anyway we would problem solve and find a way to make it possible or another way for them to feel that their want to have it is just as respected as my want to have it. While your wants in regards to the treats are valid, his are equally so.

I do understand from your post your reasons for doing this. I think that if you sat down at a calm time and explained these to your ds he might better understand your pov about it. If it is not lack of impulse control then he will probably be a lot more likely to honor and respect your wishes if you spell them out plainly for him, along with your reasons. Be open to any suggestions for resolving the conflict he may give. He may want to gobble all of his share of the treats up in one setting rather than have them spread out throughout the week for his lunch. They are his treats, his share of the treats that were bought, he need not sneak or steal them if he knows they are available to him as he wants them. He may want to eat two now and save two for certain days of the week for lunch, etc.

I'm sure the treat example is just one small slice of the things your ds is sensitive to. I hope you consider checking out the gd forum here if you haven't already, there are plenty of wise mommas there coming together to find alternatives way to discipline, some have children who they consider highly sensitive as well. They are a supportive and creative bunch!


----------



## ~Demeter~ (Jul 22, 2006)

Thankyou MissRubyandKen. I just may have a look into the GD forum.. I occasionally lurk over there but have never posted. I also appreciate your take on things and I can see the logic in them..


----------

