# How bad is it to leave coats on in car seats?



## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

I always take my 1 year old DS's coat off (he's RF-ing, of course), but I tend to leave my 3 YO DD's coat on. DD is 37", 36 lbs, and FF-ing in a Nautilus. Her coat adds a little to her size, but not much (ulike DS, whose coat is bulkier than he is).

I know this isn't ideal, but how un-ideal is it? Is it really unsafe, a little unsafe? On a scale of 1 - 10, maybe.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

If it's anything more bulky than non-fluffy polar fleece, yeah, it's pretty dangerous. There are ways you can mitigate that, by using polar fleece, by unzipping the coat, doing up the harness and tightening and zipping the coat over it, or taking the coat off and then putting it on backwards once the harness is done up.

In an accident, all that extra material compresses, leaving the child at risk for severe head and neck injuries or in a worst case scenario ejection from the seat.


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

It depends on how much bulk it adds. A thinner coat is not an issue generally. A puffy one would be very, very unsafe. To reduce bulk, unzip the coat and push the flaps out th sides of the harness, then buckle. The only extra bulk will be behind them, and at their shoulders. If you tighten the harness, then unbuckle and take the coat off, re-buckle, and the harness is too loose, the coat is adding too much bulk.


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## Spirit Dancer (Dec 11, 2006)

IF it so incredibly dangerous then why does Canada not have higher rates of neck injuries, ejection and death for children then the US? I have lived in Canada all my life and during the winter months (2-6 month period depending where you live) I would say 90% of parents put their children -especially young ones- in winter coats (and not fleece ones). Many of there are "puffy". I have known a number of people who had car accidents and even some who died but never even heard of a child being ejected because of a puffy coat.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spirit Dancer* 
IF it so incredibly dangerous then why does Canada not have higher rates of neck injuries, ejection and death for children then the US? I have lived in Canada all my life and during the winter months (2-6 month period depending where you live) I would say 90% of parents put their children -especially young ones- in winter coats (and not fleece ones). Many of there are "puffy". I have known a number of people who had car accidents and even some who died but never even heard of a child being ejected because of a puffy coat.

Um, because people in the US wear coats too.

Lots of babies and children are ejected. We just had a 2 month old ejected last week!


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Spirit Dancer* 
IF it so incredibly dangerous then why does Canada not have higher rates of neck injuries, ejection and death for children then the US? I have lived in Canada all my life and during the winter months (2-6 month period depending where you live) I would say 90% of parents put their children -especially young ones- in winter coats (and not fleece ones). Many of there are "puffy". I have known a number of people who had car accidents and even some who died but never even heard of a child being ejected because of a puffy coat.

It has happened. In fact it happened very recently in Alaska although miraculously the child survived. I personally have been on the scene of an infant killed in that exact manner. However, every day children suffer injuries, often times severe, in accidents, that could have been avoided if the child was strapped in CORRECTLY.

Car crashes are the number one killer of children in the US over one. Many of those children are restrained in child restraints, but not restrained correctly.

Just because you personally don't know anyone it happened to, does not mean it doesn't happen, nor does it mean it's not a serious risk.

It is not necessary to wear a coat in a car seat, and parents, even Canadian parents, who use their child restraints correctly do not do it.


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## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

Thanks. I'm so glad you all are here to help me keep my kids safe.


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## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maedze* 
It is not necessary to wear a coat in a car seat, and parents, even Canadian parents, who use their child restraints correctly do not do it.

It gets to minus 30 celsius here plus windchill on a regular basis. And although I would love to I do not often have the luxury of being able preheat the car (plus to really have it warm it would need to idle for at least 15 minutes). Plus, even if the car was warm the seat itself I find to be very cold & worry about that chill getting into him from underneath.

I do have a thinner coat we use for the car & puffy snowsuit for when we're outside but I honestly find it totally unreasonable in these conditions to be undressing my baby in weather where just taking my mittens off to do up the buckles has them hurting from the cold.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lifeguard* 
It gets to minus 30 celsius here plus windchill on a regular basis. And although I would love to I do not often have the luxury of being able preheat the car (plus to really have it warm it would need to idle for at least 15 minutes). Plus, even if the car was warm the seat itself I find to be very cold & worry about that chill getting into him from underneath.

I do have a thinner coat we use for the car & puffy snowsuit for when we're outside but I honestly find it totally unreasonable in these conditions to be undressing my baby in weather where just taking my mittens off to do up the buckles has them hurting from the cold.

There are Canadian parents who make the choice to keep their children safe in the car. I understand that it gets cold in Canada; that does not change the laws of physics.


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## curiouscanadian (Aug 28, 2009)

Not to threadjack, but what are the best videos about babies in puffy jackets? I know I've seen a few really good ones on here, but I didn't bookmark them at the time.









I was helping my SIL get her kids in the car today after a visit and when I went to tighten the strap on her 4mo-old, she told me not to, because she needs it that loose for his warmer snowsuit and can't loosen it after. (She just switched him into his sibling's old Eddie Bauer 3-in-1.) Besides the fact that to me that means she needs a new carseat for him, I'd like to educate her about the dangers! At the time I was so taken aback I didn't say much, but the more I think about it the more I'm freaking out!


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## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

Maedze - I'm curious where you live?

Seriously I am waaaaaaay more cautious about carseat use than a single other person I know IRL. But to go without a coat WOULD be putting my baby at risk of hypothermia. I do a thinner coat, warm boots, hat & mitts & a blanket on top. But removing a coat altogether just is not practical or safe in this environment.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

I live in Massachusetts. In the winter it's not as cold as it is there. We're usually in the teens and twenties, sometimes dipping down around zero, 10 below when it gets bitter. (this is Fahrenheit, of course)

However, it's really entirely irrelevant. Whether or not it's cold, it is NOT SAFE TO WEAR A COAT IN A CAR SEAT.

There are MANY safe alternatives to keep your child warm without also endangering your child's life. I know parents who use them. Parents who live in Canada and Alaska, where I'm sure you'll appreciate that it gets even colder than it does here.

I'm not going to argue with you over your choices. The facts are that it isn't safe. If you choose to ignore that, it's certainly your prerogative.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

I've always been skeptical about this idea that coats in carseats are so dangerous. Can anyone cite some evidence? (Not just an authoritative source that claims it's dangerous, but actual evidence.) These examples of babies being ejected from their carseats - is there evidence that the straps were tight until the baby's coat was compressed in the accident, or is it possible that the straps simply weren't tightened enough?

It seems to me that if the coat is very compressible, you ought to be able to compress it fairly well while tightening the straps. I can see that the force of an accident would be likely to compress the coat even more, but is it really common for it to be enough more to make a significant difference? I'm not saying I think it's impossible for this to be a real risk, I'm just saying I'd like to hear some proof.


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## SunshineJ (Mar 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maedze* 
There are Canadian parents who make the choice to keep their children safe in the car. I understand that it gets cold in Canada; that does not change the laws of physics.

No but leaving your car running to warm it up DOES go against the law in many areas. Honestly the ONLY place that I have ever in my life heard mention of a child being injured because they were wearing a coat in a carseat is on this forum and one other. And to say that it's absolutely not safe for a child to wear a coat in a carseat in not entirely true. It is considered not safe for a child to wear a coat in a carseat _if you have to loosen the straps_. If the child is buckled in correctly and you are able to maintain that strap tension by compressing the coat and buckle them in at the same point, then there is NO additional risk.


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## Momily (Feb 15, 2007)

Maedze,

I think you're underestimating the issue of Cold in Canada. I've lived in Chicago, which I'm going to guess is similar to most of Massachussetts. Yes, it was cold, but I'd still run from class to class without a coat, or go outside for longer periods without gloves or a hat but just a sweatshirt hood and my hands in my pocket.

I also lived in Canada and it was different. Running outside to pick up the newspaper was cold enough to make you cry. Taking off your gloves to tie a shoelace was painful. When I left the house in the morning to go to the bus stop it was routinely 40 degrees below zero. If I was still zipping my coat when I walked out the door, the cold would get inside and I'd be miserable for hours. If you want to think about the difference between that 40 degrees and the 10 below which you describe as "bitter" think of the difference between 70 degrees (too cool to swim) and 100.

In that kind of climate, you can cause physical pain to your child if they aren't in a coat long enough to strap the straps. Frostbite is a real risk if your child kicks off a blanket while the car is still warming up.

I also have to say that on this board it often appears as if there's too categories a behavior can fall in to -- safe, and not safe. The reality is different. Statistics tell us that every time you put your child into the car you're taking a risk (just as you would be if you walked somewhere, or stayed home) and that there are things you can do to mitigate these risks. Some of these things are easy to do and it makes sense to be judgemental of those people who don't do them. But there's no bright line between "safe" and "unsafe", and every parent needs to decide where the line is for them as an individual. A Canadian parent who decides that buying a coat with Thinsulate instead of down, and compressing it as tightly as they can, is where the line is for them isn't making a horrible choice. They're making a different choice than you are.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

I live in Alaska...trust me I understand cold weather. My kids don't wear coats in the car. It is totally, 100% do-able.


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## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

momily - you said it better than I could.


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## Momily (Feb 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
I live in Alaska...trust me I understand cold weather. My kids don't wear coats in the car. It is totally, 100% do-able.

Instead of just saying "it's doable", can you describe your situation an routine so that people can see whether it's applicable? Do you have a garage or driveway close to your house? Do you have a remote car start, and/or live in an area where allowing your car to idle an warm up is legal? Do you have a mini van or other vehicle that's big enough for you to close the door and keep the wind out while you buckle your kids in? What exactly are they wearing in their carseats?

I think that practical suggestions, an discussions of different circumstances might be more helpful here than judgment.

I'd still like to see someone post statistics as well.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Coats are fine as long as you don't have to adjust the straps out to accomodate the extra bulk. I usually have the kids in good-quality fleece over thermal tops, and put their warm coats on as we leave the car. Anthing that requires you let the straps out is too thick and not safe, period.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momily* 
Instead of just saying "it's doable", can you describe your situation an routine so that people can see whether it's applicable? Do you have a garage or driveway close to your house? Do you have a remote car start, and/or live in an area where allowing your car to idle an warm up is legal? Do you have a mini van or other vehicle that's big enough for you to close the door and keep the wind out while you buckle your kids in? What exactly are they wearing in their carseats?

I think that practical suggestions, an discussions of different circumstances might be more helpful here than judgment.

I'd still like to see someone post statistics as well.

I am nak'ing and need to run to the store but when I come back i would be more than happy to give a more detailed post.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momily* 
Do you have a garage or driveway close to your house?

Yes, this year we do. Last year, we did not.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momily* 
Do you have a remote car start,

No.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momily* 
and/or live in an area where allowing your car to idle an warm up is legal?

Yes, it is legal to idle here. Personally, I don't do it, because my car warms up much faster when I'm driving, so sitting and waiting for it to warm up is counter-productive.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momily* 
Do you have a mini van or other vehicle that's big enough for you to close the door and keep the wind out while you buckle your kids in?

Yes, we have two minivans, but no we cannot and do not climb inside while we buckle.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momily* 
What exactly are they wearing in their carseats?

My two older kids (2.5 and 4 years old) wear a "base" layer of tights and a long-sleeved top. Over this, they wear a long-sleeved shirt and a pair of legging-type pants, and a pair of socks. Then a hat, mittens, a good-quality fleece pullover, and their boots. They go in the car, with a warm blanket over them.

DS (5 months) will wear a cotton jammie, with socks under it. Over that I will put a fleece one-piece like this, and his shoes and hat and his little mitten-type things (without the thumbs). He has his blanket tucked around him as well.

When we get to our destination, as I unbuckle each child I slip their thick coats on. It only takes an additional few seconds to get them on for each child. DS I just pick him up and carry him wrapped in his blanket, or carry his carseat in, depending on whether he's in his infant seat or his convertible. My older kids carry their blankets into the store.

When we leave the store, we stop inside the doors and get everyone bundled again. I'll load DS back into his bucket, tuck his blanket around him and carry him out like that. I'll unlock the car, start it, and load the kids into their seats --not buckled, just setting in their seat. While I load the groceries and put the cart back they sit like that, then I take coats off, buckle, and tuck their blankets around them.

Some people forgo the blankets and instead tuck the child's coat over the top of them.

Also, I've never tried this but it's a good idea: instead of removing the coat altogether, you can unzip the coat, buckle the child into the seat, and then re-zip the coat around the harness. That reduces much of the bulk but I've never tried it since it takes quite a bit of extra time for me to fumble with the zippers.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momily* 
I'd still like to see someone post statistics as well.

If I had some I would definitely share, but I don't know what kind of statistics you are looking for







I will try to find something relevant, but I don't know if ejections were rated as to cause; usually if there is a thick coat, the ejection would probably be attributed to loose straps.


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## Momily (Feb 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
]
If I had some I would definitely share, but I don't know what kind of statistics you are looking for







I will try to find something relevant, but I don't know if ejections were rated as to cause; usually if there is a thick coat, the ejection would probably be attributed to loose straps.

Statistics that show that there are more ejections (taking into account that accident rates and types probably vary in the snow) in the winter, or in colder climates than in the summer in, say, Florida.

I think that the PP's suggestion that if not wearing coats contributed significantly to safety, we'd see different ejection or injury rates in Florida vs. Alaska, or the U.S. vs. Canada.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Anthing that requires you let the straps out is too thick and not safe, period.

That's only true if you assume all the extra thickness will be compressed to nothing in an accident. And surely that's not a realistic assumption for every coat?

I can see how a thick coat might fool parents into thinking the straps are tighter than they really are. But if a coat is made of a material that will compress a lot in an accident, it also ought to be possible for the parent to compress the coat quite a bit by pulling the straps good and tight. I wonder if the message ought to be not "Don't put a coat on your kid," but "If your kid is wearing a coat, make sure you pull the carseat straps as tight as you can."


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## GoBecGo (May 14, 2008)

Quote:

Also, I've never tried this but it's a good idea: instead of removing the coat altogether, you can unzip the coat, buckle the child into the seat, and then re-zip the coat around the harness. That reduces much of the bulk but I've never tried it since it takes quite a bit of extra time for me to fumble with the zippers.
I don't understand this at all. If the child is wearing the coat the zippers are UNDER the harness, you can't have them outside it again. The only way to do that would be to have slits/gaps in the sides and shoulders of the coat to feed the straps through. You could remove the coat, buckle the child and then put the coat on back to front over the straps, but you couldn't both buckle the child in the coat into the straps AND have the zippers still be on the outside of those straps.


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## TheGirls (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GoBecGo* 
I don't understand this at all. If the child is wearing the coat the zippers are UNDER the harness, you can't have them outside it again. The only way to do that would be to have slits/gaps in the sides and shoulders of the coat to feed the straps through. You could remove the coat, buckle the child and then put the coat on back to front over the straps, but you couldn't both buckle the child in the coat into the straps AND have the zippers still be on the outside of those straps.

You put the child in the seat, unzip the coat, and pull the zippers out from under the harness before you do up the strap. so the coat is no longer between the child and the harness, but now sticks out through the arm holes. Then zip up over the harness after you do it up. It's called the coat trick... Here's a video:


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daffodil* 
That's only true if you assume all the extra thickness will be compressed to nothing in an accident. And surely that's not a realistic assumption for every coat?

I can see how a thick coat might fool parents into thinking the straps are tighter than they really are. But if a coat is made of a material that will compress a lot in an accident, it also ought to be possible for the parent to compress the coat quite a bit by pulling the straps good and tight. I wonder if the message ought to be not "Don't put a coat on your kid," but "If your kid is wearing a coat, make sure you pull the carseat straps as tight as you can."

No, it really isn't possible to compress that much by hand. A crash can easily exert two tons of force. I can't (and I work out!). Get one of those Space Bags -- you know, the kind you suck air out with a vacuum? Put a puffy coat in. Suck all the air out. Fluff it back up. Try to compress it that much by hand.


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## MaryJaneLouise (Jul 26, 2005)

http://car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=29772

has a good photo tutorial for putting a harness on under a jacket, without completing removing the jacket.


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## sweetcheeks (May 21, 2005)

I'm in Manitoba, Canada. I know cold... we just got done with an early -40C/F with windchill cold snap. And we do not do puffy coats in the car seat so it's doable in this kind of climate, it just takes a small bit of prep and maybe an extra minute or two, at the MOST, when buckling in the kids.

I was like many here posting in this thread, I doubted how risky it really was. So then I followed the suggestion of someone from here, I strapped DD in her seat with her parka on, tightened the straps as much as I could (and what I thought was safe). Then I took DD out, took off her parka and put her back in the seat and did NOT readjust the harness. I was absolutely FLOORED how loose the straps were. Another little girl DD's size could've sat on her lap and they would've have fit under the harness straps!

My youngest has a polar fleece bunting that he wears in his carseat. (I have flogged the heck out of this suit on here, lol, but it is such an awesome bunting.) I do not have to readjust the straps for this suit and on bitterly cold days, I throw a double layer fleece blanket over him as I carry him out and put it over him after he's strapped in. He always has mitts, a toque and his Stonz booties on, so I know he's staying toasty.

DD is the one that requires the extra minute or two. She's 4.5 and in a 5pt harness. And she has a god awful, huge, puffy parka. So on the really cold days when she *has* to wear her parka, we do the "coat trick"and zip the coat up over her harness. Doing this does take an extra minute or two but it's worth it for the peace of mind. When it's not bitterly cold, she wears her 3 season jacket (rated to -15C) and I can do up the harness fine over that. However, for her, I am going to buy her this polar fleece jacket and make her a long double layer fleece poncho to wear over it. With a warm toque, neck warmer and mitts, that will suffice on even our bitterly cold days AND keep her safe.


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## sweetcheeks (May 21, 2005)

Forgot to mention, I do not have a garage and we are not allowed to idle our vehicles, as you can be ticketed. My van does have an interior car warmer that we plug in at night but when it's -40 overnight, it really doesn't warm the car up that much. It basically saves me from having to scrape windows in the morning. Having said that, I do go out and start the van right before I have the kids get ready to go so it does run for about 5 minutes. Again, not long enough to get the van warm but it takes the edge off the cold. Once I start driving, it's only a matter of a minute or two before the van really warms up.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetcheeks* 
II was like many here posting in this thread, I doubted how risky it really was. So then I followed the suggestion of someone from here, I strapped DD in her seat with her parka on, tightened the straps as much as I could (and what I thought was safe). Then I took DD out, took off her parka and put her back in the seat and did NOT readjust the harness. I was absolutely FLOORED how loose the straps were. Another little girl DD's size could've sat on her lap and they would've have fit under the harness straps!

This is the suggestion you see everywhere - see how loose the straps are after you take the coat off, and assume that's how loose they will be in an accident. But for them really to be _that_ loose, the coat has to become _completely_ compressed - thin as a sheet of paper. Is it realistic to think that will happen? Are there studies or experiments that show this happens? Crash tests with dummies wearing coats? Can anyone provide any actual data about how serious a problem this is?


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## SunshineJ (Mar 26, 2008)

Now granted it's been about 2 yrs since I had a little one is a carseat, but what kind of carseats does everyone use that they have to re-do the strap tension every time they buckle the child in? I have never heard of that before! When we had the harness carseats, I would unbuckle the child and take them out - I never had to loosen them. Then when I buckled the child back in, there wasn't any tightening required, it was just a "preset" tension if you will (that I had preset according to the size of the child). If it was secure enough without a coat and I could get it fastened to the same point with a coat, then there was no additional risk. Funny, I think there was only 1 coat I ever had a problem with, so it is entirely possible. (And yes, they were in snug enough to begin with, we had it professionally checked so we'd know what was "ok".) Personally I'd like to see any kind of statistics on how many children are injured (not just ejected - that's pretty extreme and can be from multiple causes, not just a winter coat) because they were wearing a coat in a carseat - other than just personal anecdote.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SunshineJ* 
Now granted it's been about 2 yrs since I had a little one is a carseat, but what kind of carseats does everyone use that they have to re-do the strap tension every time they buckle the child in? I have never heard of that before! When we had the harness carseats, I would unbuckle the child and take them out - I never had to loosen them. Then when I buckled the child back in, there wasn't any tightening required, it was just a "preset" tension if you will (that I had preset according to the size of the child).

It's funny - I've been wondering just the opposite: Why are so many people talking as if they never adjust the strap tension? With our carseats, you didn't _have_ to adjust it every time, but if the straps were good and tight, it made it kind of difficult to get them on and off the kid, so it was often easier to loosen them to get the kid out, then tighten them after putting the kid in again. And it seemed safest to me to always make sure I pulled them tight after the kid was strapped in.


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## paxye (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaryJaneLouise* 
http://car-seat.org/showthread.php?t=29772

has a good photo tutorial for putting a harness on under a jacket, without completing removing the jacket.

I'm in Quebec, that's how we do it... If the car is warmer because we just did a quick stop somewhere (Idling is illegal so we can't warm up the car before) then the boys take off their coats and put them on backwards after because it is quicker and easier for them to buckle in by themselves...

I take my coat off also when driving btw...


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## Limabean1975 (Jan 4, 2008)

I have a question about the coat trick: What about the thickness of the coat BEHIND THE CHILD? If the compression issue is such a concern, why is the back of the coat not a concern?


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## AlishaB (Dec 15, 2009)

This is a really great thread. I am in Alberta and we just finished the coldest snap we have had in a while, like so cold people's fingers were sticking to their cars, and doors (gross!) it was -37 celcius with the wind. (-34 F?). Anyway, I have been wondering about all this stuff as both my kids have really puffy jackets and I just can't seem to get the straps super tight. (of course I have this issue in the summer too...my straps always seem like they could go tighter, I am just not as strong as my hubby.)
I am interested in the polar fleece, it just doesnt look warm enough...is it really as warm as a down jacket? If so, I have no qualms buying one tomorrow. And so, is it more compressible?
I have a van, parked in the garage, so putting them in their seats without a jacket is not my concern...my concern is that *if* I were to get in an accident (knock on wood) and we were stranded (in a snow storm, in our car for hrs,) they would freeze to death.
My husband is a paramedic and has seen this happen...sometimes emergency vehicles cant get to you as soon as you would like, esp. in the types of conditions (icy, snow, wind) that cause major accidents...and your windows smash, so you are in the elements immediately.
Sorry to be a downer on this one, i personally feel like this is a massive dilemma...


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## paxye (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Limabean1975* 
I have a question about the coat trick: What about the thickness of the coat BEHIND THE CHILD? If the compression issue is such a concern, why is the back of the coat not a concern?

I would think that the weight of the child already compresses the coat in the back, there might be slight compression in an accident but nothing like having the harness over the front of the coat... also, the harness doesn't have to be loosened to use the coat trick so the harness is as tight as it would be without a coat.

Of course it also depends on the coat etc...

Just to say... In the winter, I personally do use an after market product for babies that most Carseat specialists would shake their head to... but the one I use has no compression issues at all, the harness isn't threaded through and the harness fits better on baby than it does with a fleece one piece suit that they do recommend...

But many of the similar products that are sold are dangerous (because of compression and threading of the harness so they change the harness path etc)... so it makes sense for many to use a blanket statement...

I guess my point is to use your better judgment... but stick with the rules of safety...


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## Kitten (Jan 10, 2005)

I went and talked to car seat techs at the local childrens hosp....large regional university hospital.

they told me rear-facing babies should not wear puffy coats due to risk of ejection.

forward-facing older children can wear any kind of coat. They said make the straps snug and keep the chest clip at armpit height. They specifically said, compression not an issue. Of course, the straps should still be as snug as you can get them.

my 2 yr old is rear facing, wears a polar fleece pullover and a blanket over him. He usually flings the blanket off in disgust. He's a tough 'sconnie boy, what do I mean putting a blanket on him? Lol

my 5 yr old wears a Lands End parka. He uses a 5 point britax regent. I don't worry about the coat one bit, most kids his age are in 3 point booster seats, much riskier IMO but to each their own.


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## momtoS (Apr 12, 2006)

I have a 5 year old and a 2.5 year old. I have NEVER heard of the no jacket rule. EVER. Including when I have went for a carseat check.

I am wondering....I live in Northern Canada. COLD. Would the risk/reality of hypothermia be MORE of a concern than wearing a jacket? Heck...what about snowpants?

Interesting topic...I am going to come back and read it....thanks


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kitten* 
I went and talked to car seat techs at the local childrens hosp....large regional university hospital.

they told me rear-facing babies should not wear puffy coats due to risk of ejection.

fo*rward-facing older children can wear any kind of coat. They said make the straps snug and keep the chest clip at armpit height. They specifically said, compression not an issue. Of course, the straps should still be as snug as you can get them.*

my 2 yr old is rear facing, wears a polar fleece pullover and a blanket over him. He usually flings the blanket off in disgust. He's a tough 'sconnie boy, what do I mean putting a blanket on him? Lol

my 5 yr old wears a Lands End parka. He uses a 5 point britax regent. I don't worry about the coat one bit, most kids his age are in 3 point booster seats, much riskier IMO but to each their own.


Whoever you talked to was fabulously, GROSSLY and dangerously incorrect. EEE GADS. If I had overheard that conversation as a senior technician I would have immediately pulled the technician aside, corrected the dangerous information, and recommend the technician for retraining and not to have further parental contact until the technician could demonstrate at least baseline competence. Ugh.

Your five year old is NOT SAFE in a Lands End Parka. He would be perfectly safe in a correctly used booster, he's perfectly safe in a correctly used Regent but as it stands he is not safe at all.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momtoS* 
I have a 5 year old and a 2.5 year old. I have NEVER heard of the no jacket rule. EVER. Including when I have went for a carseat check.

I am wondering....I live in Northern Canada. COLD. Would the risk/reality of hypothermia be MORE of a concern than wearing a jacket? Heck...what about snowpants?

Interesting topic...I am going to come back and read it....thanks


If a technician failed to tell you that, your technician was doing an inadequate job.

Bulky jackets and snowpants do not belong in child restraints.


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## momtoS (Apr 12, 2006)

Several different people didn't tell me. Is this a new rule?

Also.....is there any comparsion to the real threat of hypothermia and no jacket?


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momtoS* 
Several different people didn't tell me. Is this a new rule?

Also.....is there any comparsion to the real threat of hypothermia and no jacket?

No, it is not a new rule. The risks of compression didn't suddenly develop with new laws of physics









If you follow the excellent suggestions given by technicians (including advocates who live in very cold climates), there is no risk of hypothermia.


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## momtoS (Apr 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maedze* 
No, it is not a new rule. The risks of compression didn't suddenly develop with new laws of physics








.

I am not an uneducated person. I thought that prehaps it was rule with more recent studies etc. I realize that the laws of physics have not changed.

Are there any studies online to back this up?


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## paxye (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momtoS* 
Several different people didn't tell me. Is this a new rule?

Also.....is there any comparsion to the real threat of hypothermia and no jacket?

No one says to not wear a coat... but to buckle in safely if using one. We wouldn't use a fleece coat as many suggest because it is not realistic here.

It was -30 here this week, we don't heat up the car before so it is freezing in the car.

We do the coat trick without a problem (My three are still harnessed). The harness ends up under the coat and the coat is zipped up over it. It does take a little more help from me with my two youngest but it is worth it... if the car is warm or we are leaving from a warmer destination (if we went into the city and parked indoors) then they just take their coats off, buckle themselves in and then put their coats on backwards...

Whatever the way, there is no way they are going to freeze...


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## AlishaB (Dec 15, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momtoS* 
I am wondering....I live in Northern Canada. COLD. Would the risk/reality of hypothermia be MORE of a concern than wearing a jacket? Heck...what about snowpants?

Snowpants....a whole other can of worms.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

I am not sure if there are on line resources. I know when I took my CPST class, we studied several cases of infants being ejected for this reason. We also watched videos showing the differences in head excursion between a forward facing child with the harness in varying states (due to it not being properly tightened, positioned, or the dummy wearing a puffy coat). There were significantly higher head excursion numbers for the dummy in the coat. Higher HE numbers correspond with a greater risk of head injury or spinal injury.

I wish I could link you to something for the general public, but again, all this stuff was class material.

There was an infant ejected in Alaska, not just from the seat but from the car, due to wearing a very puffy snowsuit, a few weeks ago. Due to some fortuitious freak of nature, the baby was unharmed







I personally was on the scene many years ago of an infant who died in this way. At the time I knew nothing about car seats.


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## AlishaB (Dec 15, 2009)

I think it really comes down to being informed and doing the best you can do. Bottom line is that people DIE in car crashes. With or without jackets, with or with out straps being super tight or whatever. It's a car, there is a risk.
We just try our best to keep our kids safe. Properly installed carseats, properly used, even installed by a Tech does not guarantee that your kid will survive.
Sometimes I think Sleep Deprivation is a whole lot worse than a faulty carseat....


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## AlishaB (Dec 15, 2009)

I honestly dont mean to be such a downer...but if I could tell you the amount of drunk drivers who are not wearing their seat belts that SURVIVE a car crash, you would shake your head!


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AlishaB* 
I think it really comes down to being informed and doing the best you can do. Bottom line is that people DIE in car crashes. With or without jackets, with or with out straps being super tight or whatever. It's a car, there is a risk.
We just try our best to keep our kids safe. Properly installed carseats, properly used, even installed by a Tech does not guarantee that your kid will survive.
Sometimes I think Sleep Deprivation is a whole lot worse than a faulty carseat....









No, but by properly using your correctly installed seat, RF'ing as long as possible, with no coat or aftermarket products *greatly* increases your chances of surviving.

Those of you doubting the compressibility of coats, do as the PP suggested and try out a vaccuum bag.







They compress to nothing when you introduce crash forces.

There is a fabulous picture of a snowsuit, still carefully buckled into a car seat, minus the child which flew out in a crash. It does happen.


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## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

It is interesting to me to see the different information here. Some are say thinner coats are ok & some are saying absolutely no coat (which imo is NOT a viable option in my situation).

I also find it interesting that no one can find anything to post that backs all this up.

I think we all do our best to with this stuff but really there is no such thing as perfectly safe. Getting into a car is risky, we can minimize it but when the worse happens there will always be a thousand what ifs & if onlys.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lifeguard* 
It is interesting to me to see the different information here. Some are say thinner coats are ok & some are saying absolutely no coat (which imo is NOT a viable option in my situation).

I also find it interesting that no one can find anything to post that backs all this up.

I think we all do our best to with this stuff but really there is no such thing as perfectly safe. Getting into a car is risky, we can minimize it but when the worse happens there will always be a thousand what ifs & if onlys.

If you want the information, sign up and take a CPST course. Not everything is on wikipedia.

Incidentally, no one with any kind of training or education is saying that thinner coats are not ok.

Just because there is no such thing as perfectly safe does not mean it's ok to wear parkas in a car seat.


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## SunshineJ (Mar 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maedze* 
If a technician failed to tell you that, your technician was doing an inadequate job.

Bulky jackets and snowpants do not belong in child restraints.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maedze* 
No, it is not a new rule. The risks of compression didn't suddenly develop with new laws of physics







_That was nice._

If you follow the excellent suggestions given by technicians (including advocates who live in very cold climates), there is no risk of hypothermia.

Seriously I have NEVER heard anyone other than online tell me this - not the car seat installation experts (I don't know what the official title is) at the highway department, not the pediatrician, not the schools, never.

So then I do have to ask this though. At the kids school they are required to wear snowpants to walk into the building. The school is not only elementary but does preschool as well, so many children are in 5 pt harnesses. There are no busses (still amazed over that one!) and parents bring their children to school. We park on the street in traffic and can not keep the children standing in the street to dress them - regardless of traffic safety, this is in temperatures that have advisories to remain completely covered and limit outside exposure. Off street parking for child drop off and pick up is not available. Sidewalks are unavailable due to the depth of the snow. All of the school walking routes and policies have been endorsed by the police and transportation departments. What would you suggest then if they aren't supposed to wear snow pants or bibs in the car but HAVE to have them to walk across the playground into the school? I don't really see any other way?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
There is a fabulous picture of a snowsuit, still carefully buckled into a car seat, minus the child which flew out in a crash. It does happen.









If a child is in a full body snowsuit that's fastened completely, how the hell would that even be possible? Wow! Where is that picture located?


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *SunshineJ* 

If a child is in a full body snowsuit that's fastened completely, how the hell would that even be possible? Wow! Where is that picture located?

Because, as has been previously explained multiple times, the material compresses in an accident. No matter how tight you think you've gotten it, you cannot mimic the strength of an accident. All that material compresses and the baby shoots right out of the top of the harness. The baby has mass and will travel further, than the snowsuit which has very little mass, only volume.

I've seen it in pictures in tech class, and I saw it once in real life. I don't know if a picture is available for on line consumption.

I stand at the door at school pick up and correctly adjust my children's winter clothing for their child restraints. My children's safety is important to me, moreso than a quickly moving pick-up line.


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## SunshineJ (Mar 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maedze* 
I stand at the door at school pick up and correctly adjust my children's winter clothing for their child restraints. My children's safety is important to me, moreso than a quickly moving pick-up line.

I'm afraid I don't understand this part. We don't have any type of "pick up line" at the children's school nor a door to stand at. We park on the public street, cross that, then cross a wide playground to get them to their school door. Look, it was a legitimate question that I was asking you, as you have repeatedly stated you are a licensed car safety technician (and I apologize if that is the incorrect title). Implying that people who ask questions where they can't see a feasible way to do things don't hold their children's safety as important is really unnecessary. Forget it.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

I apologize if I come across a little short tempered. I have explained the same thing several times today only to have people respond as though I am daft and lying to them. I am losing my temper









If you could rephrase your question I will try to field it more professionally.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lifeguard* 
I also find it interesting that no one can find anything to post that backs all this up.

This from the Child Passenger Safety Encyclopedia. You can see that we are not making this up







and that those techs who do not teach about bulky clothing are actually not following the standardized curriculum.









Quote:

padding &#8230; will compress in a crash and leave the harness slack on the child, allowing excessive movement or even ejection. Bulky jackets and snowsuits can have the same effect...

Clothing worn by the children can also present compression and harness routing problems. It is best to have children travel without coats, to put coats on backwards, or to add a blanket over the child after the harness has been buckled. Jackets that are worn the regular way should be no heavier than lightweight fleece fabric or be unfastened to allow contact between the child and the harness or belt
(7/06)
Here is a great blog from a CPST with pictures, showing not only the slack in a harness after a coat is removed but also safe ways of keeping warm!


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## Limabean1975 (Jan 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paxye* 
I would think that the weight of the child already compresses the coat in the back, there might be slight compression in an accident but nothing like having the harness over the front of the coat... also, the harness doesn't have to be loosened to use the coat trick so the harness is as tight as it would be without a coat.

Of course it also depends on the coat etc...

Hmm. In conjunction with the other information in this thread - about the incredible forces in an accident and how much they can compress - it still does not make sense to me. A child's weight certainly could not compress it the amount that a reasonably strong adult could tighten the straps.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Limabean1975* 
Hmm. In conjunction with the other information in this thread - about the incredible forces in an accident and how much they can compress - it still does not make sense to me. *A child's weight certainly could not compress it the amount that a reasonably strong adult could tighten the straps*.


This is categorically incorrect and says to me that you do not understand the physics involved.

Due to the deceleration that occurs in a severe crash, the child's weight is multiplied essentially by the speed of the car. The force can easily approach thousands of pounds of pure momentum. This is far more than an adult can achieve by hand tightening.


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## mysticmomma (Feb 8, 2005)

yeah, a 30lb kid in a 30mph crash exerts 900lbs of force against the straps... I'm not that strong.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maedze* 
This is categorically incorrect and says to me that you do not understand the physics involved.

Due to the deceleration that occurs in a severe crash, the child's weight is multiplied essentially by the speed of the car. The force can easily approach thousands of pounds of pure momentum. This is far more than an adult can achieve by hand tightening.

I think limabean's point was how is it safe to have the jacket behind the child? Because only 30lbs of compression would be exerted on the jacket (vs. 50+ lbs of compression if an adult tightened the strap) -- point being that if it's not safe for the jacket to be in between the harness & the child, it doesn't make sense that it IS safe to have it in between the child & the back of the car set.


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## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
This from the Child Passenger Safety Encyclopedia. You can see that we are not making this up







and that those techs who do not teach about bulky clothing are actually not following the standardized curriculum.









Here is a great blog from a CPST with pictures, showing not only the slack in a harness after a coat is removed but also safe ways of keeping warm!

Thank you.

I actually do NOT use a puffy coat in the car but I am always interested in more accurate information so I can share it with others.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Limabean1975* 
Hmm. In conjunction with the other information in this thread - about the incredible forces in an accident and how much they can compress - it still does not make sense to me. A child's weight certainly could not compress it the amount that a reasonably strong adult could tighten the straps.


Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maedze* 
This is categorically incorrect and says to me that you do not understand the physics involved.

Due to the deceleration that occurs in a severe crash, the child's weight is multiplied essentially by the speed of the car. The force can easily approach thousands of pounds of pure momentum. This is far more than an adult can achieve by hand tightening.

I think limabean was questioning how opening the coat (leaving bulk behind the child) could be safe. As in, if an adult (120+ lbs) cannot tighten straps enough to compress the coat than how could a child's weight (40lbs or less) be enough compression to ensure the straps are tight enough, even if it is half of the coat?

I just wish this information could be shared in such a way as to not come across as judgemental - it just gets people's defenses up right away & then nothing is accomplished. If this is really so important than the information should be shared as much as possible in a friendly, let's make the children safer manner. And honestly, telling someone they need to take a course to get the information is not very helpful.


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

http://www.remsa-cf.com/ComAdvisor2005/CA112905a.html

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2007/...t.html?ref=rss

http://www.unitedwayuc.org/welcomeba...ary%202008.pdf

http://www.canadianparents.com/artic...ar-seat-safety


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## elus0814 (Sep 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momily* 
Maedze,

I think you're underestimating the issue of Cold in Canada. I've lived in Chicago, which I'm going to guess is similar to most of Massachussetts. Yes, it was cold, but I'd still run from class to class without a coat, or go outside for longer periods without gloves or a hat but just a sweatshirt hood and my hands in my pocket.

I also lived in Canada and it was different. Running outside to pick up the newspaper was cold enough to make you cry. Taking off your gloves to tie a shoelace was painful. When I left the house in the morning to go to the bus stop it was routinely 40 degrees below zero. If I was still zipping my coat when I walked out the door, the cold would get inside and I'd be miserable for hours. If you want to think about the difference between that 40 degrees and the 10 below which you describe as "bitter" think of the difference between 70 degrees (too cool to swim) and 100.

In that kind of climate, you can cause physical pain to your child if they aren't in a coat long enough to strap the straps. Frostbite is a real risk if your child kicks off a blanket while the car is still warming up.

I also have to say that on this board it often appears as if there's too categories a behavior can fall in to -- safe, and not safe. The reality is different. Statistics tell us that every time you put your child into the car you're taking a risk (just as you would be if you walked somewhere, or stayed home) and that there are things you can do to mitigate these risks. Some of these things are easy to do and it makes sense to be judgemental of those people who don't do them. But there's no bright line between "safe" and "unsafe", and every parent needs to decide where the line is for them as an individual. A Canadian parent who decides that buying a coat with Thinsulate instead of down, and compressing it as tightly as they can, is where the line is for them isn't making a horrible choice. They're making a different choice than you are.









VERY well put. It is very unrealistic for parents to try and take their baby out of their coat and put them into a freezing cold car seat. It is possible to find a less puffy coat and make sure the straps are sufficiently tight but coat removal is not. Think how you would feel if you had your coat ripped off in sub-zero weather and were then strapped into an ice cold seat. I can't believe parents aren't concerned about hypothermia, which can occur very quickly in children. The risk of hypothermia is much greater than the chance of an accident. It would be like purposely pushing your child down so they scrape up their knee in order to avoid a one in a million chance they would fall themselves and break their leg.


----------



## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lifeguard* 
Thank you.

I actually do NOT use a puffy coat in the car but I am always interested in more accurate information so I can share it with others.

I think limabean was questioning how opening the coat (leaving bulk behind the child) could be safe. As in, if an adult (120+ lbs) cannot tighten straps enough to compress the coat than how could a child's weight (40lbs or less) be enough compression to ensure the straps are tight enough, even if it is half of the coat?

I just wish this information could be shared in such a way as to not come across as judgemental - it just gets people's defenses up right away & then nothing is accomplished. If this is really so important than the information should be shared as much as possible in a friendly, let's make the children safer manner. And honestly, telling someone they need to take a course to get the information is not very helpful.


I gave you the information I had multiple times. You clearly did not believe me and implied strongly that I was making it up. I did not have an on line reference to cite, merely written works HERE on my desk. I cited the course as the most immediate way of getting the information.

If you repeatedly imply someone is not being truthful, that person, no matter how well-meaning, is going to get short eventually.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elus0814* 







VERY well put. It is very unrealistic for parents to try and take their baby out of their coat and put them into a freezing cold car seat. It is possible to find a less puffy coat and make sure the straps are sufficiently tight but coat removal is not. Think how you would feel if you had your coat ripped off in sub-zero weather and were then strapped into an ice cold seat. I can't believe parents aren't concerned about hypothermia, which can occur very quickly in children. The risk of hypothermia is much greater than the chance of an accident. It would be like purposely pushing your child down so they scrape up their knee in order to avoid a one in a million chance they would fall themselves and break their leg.

Multiple parents have told you how they deal with this in a safe and effective manner. You do not need to wear a coat in the car to keep your child warm, and it is still dangerous.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lifeguard* 

I think limabean was questioning how opening the coat (leaving bulk behind the child) could be safe. As in, if an adult (120+ lbs) cannot tighten straps enough to compress the coat than how could a child's weight (40lbs or less) be enough compression to ensure the straps are tight enough, even if it is half of the coat?

I

Ok, I think I understand the question. Are you questioning how compression comes into play in a forward facing crash when the added bulk is between the child and the shell rather than the child and the harness?


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## Limabean1975 (Jan 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy* 
I think limabean's point was how is it safe to have the jacket behind the child? Because only 30lbs of compression would be exerted on the jacket (vs. 50+ lbs of compression if an adult tightened the strap) -- point being that if it's not safe for the jacket to be in between the harness & the child, it doesn't make sense that it IS safe to have it in between the child & the back of the car set.

Yes exactly. Perhaps I should have included my original post in the quote since some people may only be skimming the thread.


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## Limabean1975 (Jan 4, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maedze* 
Ok, I think I understand the question. Are you questioning how compression comes into play in a forward facing crash when the added bulk is between the child and the shell rather than the child and the harness?

Any direction of crash, really.


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

For those who don't have remote starters (they are actually fairly cheap, btw) or live somewhere where it's illegal to have the car running w/o anyone in it - can't you strap or set the kids into their carseats, in their full winter gear, and then wait until the car warms up a bit, unbuckle them and remove coats (putting on backwards if it's still too chilly), and re-buckle and tighten the harness? Typing it all out it sounds like a process, but when we lived in CO and had four kids in carseats, we often did this. It might have added 5 min or so depending on how long the car had been sitting, but with multiple kids we needed extra time to get places and/or ran a bit late anyhow.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Drummer's Wife* 
For those who don't have remote starters (they are actually fairly cheap, btw) or live somewhere where it's illegal to have the car running w/o anyone in it - can't you strap or set the kids into their carseats, in their full winter gear, and then wait until the car warms up a bit, unbuckle them and remove coats (putting on backwards if it's still too chilly), and re-buckle and tighten the harness? Typing it all out it sounds like a process, but when we lived in CO and had four kids in carseats, we often did this. It might have added 5 min or so depending on how long the car had been sitting, but with multiple kids we needed extra time to get places and/or ran a bit late anyhow.


Taking my children in and out of their carseat would add way more than 5 minutes to the ordeal. My infants/toddlers generally have always HATED teh carseat. With the toddlers activiely trying to not get buckled in. I acn't imagine doing that more than once, while just in the driveway. We live where is can get to 20 below. I am lucky to have a remote starter. However, the kids still have to be gotten out to the car form the house, and there is not room in the car for anyone to do anything other than sit in their own seats (no room for me to be inside with the doors closed to take coats off, etc). I'm sorry, this just doesn't seem realistic. I agree that it may ad a degree of safety to take the coats off, but really every day, we make litle compromises in our children's safety. I don't think that we can judge another parentbecause they make different chioices than you. REally if you want to be uber safe, don't drive at all. That's what is ultimately dangerous - traveling by car" wether you're in a carseat or not.-


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Limabean1975* 
Any direction of crash, really.

Ok.

I'm venturing out of verifiable, documented fact here and offering my opinion based on what I do know about crash testing.

Facts:

1. Head excursion is measured from a neutral point (back of the child restraint) to however far the head travels

2. The further forward the child is at the time of impact (due to loose straps or added padding), the further the head travels before snapping back

3. In studies, the the further the head excursion, the greater the chance of serious head or neck injuries.

So, I would posit that simply adding padding to the back of the seat will increase the risk of head or neck injuries. However, with thin or non-compressible coats, using the coat trick of opening the front and doing up the harness inside, it's actually measurably possible to tighten the harness just as much as you would without the coat, which is why the coat trick works so well.

Other observable facts:

Even when parents (general parents) don't put anything in the seat, they tend not to tighten the harness properly. I don't think I've ever (maybe once or twice?) have a parent come into my inspection station with the harness correctly tightened. Yet as a general rule they think they've done it correctly.

Every added piece of thickness you put in there, whether it's from a thick coat, or a bunting or a Bundle Me, increases the risk of the harness being loose enough to actually cause serious, serious harm.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
Taking my children in and out of their carseat would add way more than 5 minutes to the ordeal. My infants/toddlers generally have always HATED teh carseat. With the toddlers activiely trying to not get buckled in. I acn't imagine doing that more than once, while just in the driveway. We live where is can get to 20 below. I am lucky to have a remote starter. However, the kids still have to be gotten out to the car form the house, and there is not room in the car for anyone to do anything other than sit in their own seats (no room for me to be inside with the doors closed to take coats off, etc). I'm sorry, this just doesn't seem realistic. I agree that it may ad a degree of safety to take the coats off, but really every day, we make litle compromises in our children's safety. I don't think that we can judge another parentbecause they make different chioices than you. REally if you want to be uber safe, don't drive at all. That's what is ultimately dangerous - traveling by car" wether you're in a carseat or not.-


It gets cold here, too. I have three kids, I don't have a remote starter or a garage. It's currently 5 degrees outside.

Just because something is an added inconvenience does not make doing the opposite a safe or non-risky decision.

I will be bowing out of this thread now because I'm beginning to sound like a broken record. If anyone has a future legitimate question I will be happy to field them via PM.

I do not wish to argue with anyone so I will not respond to argumentative PMs.

Have a pleasant evening


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

RE: the "coat trick": I'm not personally comfortable with it, so I've never done it. But I think the general idea is that instead of the bulk of a jacket all around the child, you only have the bulk of the jacket behind the child. The child probably wouldn't be ejected, it would just allow a little extra movement/head excursion. Like I said, I wouldn't do it, but some are comfortable with it


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## JessicaS (Nov 18, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
RE: the "coat trick": I'm not personally comfortable with it, so I've never done it. But I think the general idea is that instead of the bulk of a jacket all around the child, you only have the bulk of the jacket behind the child. The child probably wouldn't be ejected, it would just allow a little extra movement/head excursion. Like I said, I wouldn't do it, but some are comfortable with it









ET: Looking at the information it looks like it isn't safe to have compressible materials behind the child either.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maedze* 
It gets cold here, too. I have three kids, I don't have a remote starter or a garage. It's currently 5 degrees outside.

*Just because something is an added inconvenience does not make doing the opposite a safe or non-risky decision.*

I will be bowing out of this thread now because I'm beginning to sound like a broken record. If anyone has a future legitimate question I will be happy to field them via PM.

I do not wish to argue with anyone so I will not respond to argumentative PMs.

Have a pleasant evening









And it doesn't automatically make it an unsafe or risky decision. Seriously, we all do the best under out OWN curcumstances. Safest would be to not drive at all. I don't see many advocating for that here, or implying that those mothers who do drive in the car with their kids don't care about safety , or aren't willing to be "inconvienenced" by walking or taking public transport.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
And it doesn't automatically make it an unsafe or risky decision. Seriously, we all do the best under out OWN curcumstances. Safest would be to not drive at all. I don't see many advocating for that here, or implying that those mothers who do drive in the car with their kids don't care about safety , or aren't willing to be "inconvienenced" by walking or taking public transport.

Right, but child passenger safety is all about minimizing risk while in the car


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## Drummer's Wife (Jun 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
Taking my children in and out of their carseat would add way more than 5 minutes to the ordeal. My infants/toddlers generally have always HATED teh carseat. With the toddlers activiely trying to not get buckled in. I acn't imagine doing that more than once, while just in the driveway. We live where is can get to 20 below. I am lucky to have a remote starter. However, the kids still have to be gotten out to the car form the house, and there is not room in the car for anyone to do anything other than sit in their own seats (no room for me to be inside with the doors closed to take coats off, etc). I'm sorry, this just doesn't seem realistic. I agree that it may ad a degree of safety to take the coats off, but really every day, we make litle compromises in our children's safety. I don't think that we can judge another parentbecause they make different chioices than you. REally if you want to be uber safe, don't drive at all. That's what is ultimately dangerous - traveling by car" wether you're in a carseat or not.-

Fair enough. At one point we had a tiny car (mazda protege) with 3 car seats in the back and I remember not even strapping them in until the car warmed up -- we would sit there and listen to music, or they would cry/fight/complain







and there certainly wasn't room for me to climb back there - but I would have to freeze my a$$ off for a couple minutes to get back out of the car, reach in from each door, remove 3 coats, and buckle. Of course it was a million times easier when DH was with us, and then even better once he installed a remote start. I do recall being cold, uncomfortable, and inconvenienced - and I can only imagine if we are talking some of these temps others have mentioned







Denver got cold, but not 40 below.

The good news is that it's not forever, right? Kids grow and eventually don't need harnessed seats and/or can put on and remove their outerwear on their own. Maybe I'd be complaining more about the hassle if it were my current reality, but as it is now, we have a heated garage, a big SUV to move around in, and live in a much warmer climate. (thankgoodness, b/c I'm a big wuss.)

I was just making a suggestion, is all, b/c what we used to do came to mind.







clearly it depends on weather, how much of a hurry one is in, kids temperament, etc.

I will say, though, that the blog pictures an aurora linked were helpful to me to see the possible difference in harness slack.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
And it doesn't automatically make it an unsafe or risky decision. Seriously, we all do the best under out OWN curcumstances. Safest would be to not drive at all. I don't see many advocating for that here, or implying that those mothers who do drive in the car with their kids don't care about safety , or aren't willing to be "inconvienenced" by walking or taking public transport.

Well, yes, it does make it unsafe and risky. Whether that decrease in safety/increase in risk is "worth it" is an individual decision -- but certain things, like puffy coats in carseats or forward-facing too early, ARE risky. A person's own priorities may justify the risk in their assessment, but it doesn't eliminate it.

ETA that to me, this is the crux of the argument. Parents make their own choices. I (try to) respect that. I won't argue (too much) when a parent makes a choice I wouldn't. I will argue when that parent argues that the choice is safe.


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## Mommybree (Jul 27, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
Taking my children in and out of their carseat would add way more than 5 minutes to the ordeal. My infants/toddlers generally have always HATED teh carseat. With the toddlers activiely trying to not get buckled in. I acn't imagine doing that more than once, while just in the driveway. We live where is can get to 20 below. I am lucky to have a remote starter. However, the kids still have to be gotten out to the car form the house, and there is not room in the car for anyone to do anything other than sit in their own seats (no room for me to be inside with the doors closed to take coats off, etc). I'm sorry, this just doesn't seem realistic. I agree that it may ad a degree of safety to take the coats off, but really every day, we make litle compromises in our children's safety. I don't think that we can judge another parentbecause they make different chioices than you. REally if you want to be uber safe, don't drive at all. *That's what is ultimately dangerous - traveling by car" wether you're in a carseat or not.*-

It is precisely because traveling in a car is so dangerous that being safely secured in a carseat facing the appropriate direction for a child's age without a big, puffy coat is so vitally important.

If traveling in cars weren't dangerous, then carseat safety wouldn't matter.


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## Twinklefae (Dec 13, 2006)

I'm a tech and I'm in Canada. If you aren't sure if your DC's coats will cause issue in an accident, try this. Put them in the car seat with the coat on. Take them out. Take the coat off. (You can do this in the living room if it's too cold outside.) Put them back in the car seat and look at the harness. If it isn't loose at all, they can keep wearing the coat.

Personally, I shop for a "car coat" every winter. When he was tiny it was a fleece suit. Last year it was a layer of fleece with a wind-breaking layer. This year it is just a thin coat. Add hats and mitts (v. important when fending off the cold!) and you are ready to go.

For my daycare kids, I do the coat trick, where I undo their (enormous puffy) coats and zip up over the top of the harness. (Or velcro... coats with velcro make this much easier!) It takes me 15 min to get three kids in the car.

ETA: There wouldn't be any stats on whether or not a coat makes a difference, because something like 80% of car seats are used incorrectly, no matter the weather.


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## Yooper (Jun 6, 2003)

What about bibs and booster/seatbelt use? Both dd and I wear bibs often in the winter when we are running errands. Having that extra layer on the legs makes it possible for us to wear lighter, less-compressible coats on top. Plus we are often "wading" in deep snow to our car and on the seldom-cleared sidewalks. It sounds weird but lots of people here wear bibs as a regular item of clothing. I am another one from a very cold climate and really taking a coat off for any amount of time can be dangerous. We also travel on a lot of rural roads where it would be very easy to go off the road and wait hours or even days to get help.....possibly trapped in your seat. Anyway, the bibs we wear are not padded on the "bib" area, just the legs and waist. But I am thinking the padding in the waist/lap area might be an issue?

FTR, we do try very hard to avoid puffy coats in seatbelts. Dd has a 5-point harness in one car and we simply do not use that car unless dd can fit into the preset straps with whatever she is wearing. However, there have been a few times where we have HAD to go somewhere (in the boostered car) and going with a fleece coat would just be a really dumb risk. We do the "coat trick" or put it on backwards over the belt but honestly, that makes me more nervous than going over the coat because I cannot SEE the seatbelt under dd's coat and cannot be constantly monitoring whether it is correctly tightened or positions.


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## lasciate (May 4, 2005)

I'd like to see some links about children being ejected from carseats. Not infants - just children.


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## Momily (Feb 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Twinklefae* 
I'm a tech and I'm in Canada. If you aren't sure if your DC's coats will cause issue in an accident, try this. Put them in the car seat with the coat on. Take them out. Take the coat off. (You can do this in the living room if it's too cold outside.) Put them back in the car seat and look at the harness. If it isn't loose at all, they can keep wearing the coat.

Personally, I shop for a "car coat" every winter. When he was tiny it was a fleece suit. Last year it was a layer of fleece with a wind-breaking layer. This year it is just a thin coat. Add hats and mitts (v. important when fending off the cold!) and you are ready to go.

For my daycare kids, I do the coat trick, where I undo their (enormous puffy) coats and zip up over the top of the harness. (Or velcro... coats with velcro make this much easier!) It takes me 15 min to get three kids in the car.

ETA: There wouldn't be any stats on whether or not a coat makes a difference, because something like 80% of car seats are used incorrectly, no matter the weather.

I live in a much warmer climate. My child never rode in a coat, but in the winter was frequently in the car in with say an undershirt, turtleneck and sweatshirt. When he was little I had to uninstall the carseat to tighten or loosen the harness, and every spring I'd have to tighten it because he was wearing less clothing. So his outfit would have failed that test -- does that make it unsafe?


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## Momily (Feb 15, 2007)

OK, I can't

But I feel like often at MDC people make the blanket statement that something is unsafe, and don't back it up, and that's what's happening here. It's like superstition -- there's a certain list of "rules" I must follow and if I follow them perfectly my child will never come to harm. Therefore parents whose children do come to harm must be breaking some rule and should be harshly judged. As a parent I'm constantly making decisions about whether X or Y is the best choice for us, it's rarely as simple as just following a single rule.

To give you an example, school buses are definitely safer than cars, even for kids in carseats, but I don't throw a fit when I hear that my neighbor decides to drive to school to pick up her kid to be at Brownies on time.

Driving (in the short term, leaving the long term risks of inactivity) with your kid in the car is dramatically safer than walking, but I don't judge a parent who walks their kid to school.

Everyone's situation is different. Is there an increased risk of ejection and head excursion if a child's wearing a puffy coat? Yes, I will admit that. But if you're in a 40 below climate, and you're in an accident bad enough that that makes a difference you're almost certainly with shattered window, and the risk of a child freezing to death waiting for first responders is real too.

Where I live, when I pick up and drop off my kid at school we're parked on the side of a busy street. Waiting 10 minutes for my car to warm up, while he's sitting unbuckled in the seat isn't any different from driving on the same street with him completely unbuckled. Plus, carjacking is a real issue where I live, so having the car running while I'm at the back door (particularly the back passenger side door) buckling someone in is out of the question.

The correct thing to do would be to provide real statistics, or even anecdotes that involve older kids (because putting baby in a bunting in the carseat, wrapping a blanket or 2 around him and carrying him out to the car, is a lot easier than dealing with a 4 year old) would be great.

If I were a parent dealing with this (I'm not, I have a 10 year old), I'd want some real information so that I can evaluate the situation and make the decision that's right for me. That decision might be complicated. If he's going to preschool where they go straight from carpool to the playground, I do the coat trick, and let him wear snowpants . . . If it's above negative 10 we do the fleece coat blanket thing, if we're traveling on rural roads where we might not be found for hours after an accident we buckle over the winter coat . . .


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## Missinnyc (Aug 21, 2003)

My son wears a very puffy parka in the winter, in his 5 pt harness. I have never had to tighten or loosen the straps in order to get him in or out. It's plenty tight either way.

The reason no one can post statistics is that this is impossible to study. I think it's pretty probable that these kids who are ejected from their CS in accidents weren't tightly strapped in, coat or not. The coat is not necessarily the deciding factor here.

I find this whole argument silly. As the PP said, the safest thing to do is never to drive anywhere, as driving is much less safe than never driving. So I think anyone who drives their kid anywhere doesn't care about safety. You should all walk everywhere!!








Kidding. Do the best you can.


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## Therese's Mommy (Jan 15, 2005)

I read this thread through this AMs posts. I have been wondering about the bulky coat thing. Today when I went out with my 5yo I did the coat trick and it really only added a minute total (30 sec putting her in and 30 sec taking her out). I am a super duper impatient person and my nb is almost always screaming in the car which makes me even more impatient, so the fact that I didn't find this annoying says a lot. I am not saying it will work for everyone, since there are so many situations out there, but I would urge people to just give it a try


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Right, how can they study this? It's impossible to isolate the variables. When a child is ejected, it's attributed to loose straps. Coats contribute to loose straps.

I'll try to find some pertinent links.


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## momtoS (Apr 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momily* 
OK, I can't

But I feel like often at MDC people make the blanket statement that something is unsafe, and don't back it up, and that's what's happening here. It's like superstition -- there's a certain list of "rules" I must follow and if I follow them perfectly my child will never come to harm. Therefore parents whose children do come to harm must be breaking some rule and should be harshly judged. As a parent I'm constantly making decisions about whether X or Y is the best choice for us, it's rarely as simple as just following a single rule.

To give you an example, school buses are definitely safer than cars, even for kids in carseats, but I don't throw a fit when I hear that my neighbor decides to drive to school to pick up her kid to be at Brownies on time.

Driving (in the short term, leaving the long term risks of inactivity) with your kid in the car is dramatically safer than walking, but I don't judge a parent who walks their kid to school.

Everyone's situation is different. Is there an increased risk of ejection and head excursion if a child's wearing a puffy coat? Yes, I will admit that. But if you're in a 40 below climate, and you're in an accident bad enough that that makes a difference you're almost certainly with shattered window, and the risk of a child freezing to death waiting for first responders is real too.

Where I live, when I pick up and drop off my kid at school we're parked on the side of a busy street. Waiting 10 minutes for my car to warm up, while he's sitting unbuckled in the seat isn't any different from driving on the same street with him completely unbuckled. Plus, carjacking is a real issue where I live, so having the car running while I'm at the back door (particularly the back passenger side door) buckling someone in is out of the question.

The correct thing to do would be to provide real statistics, or even anecdotes that involve older kids (because putting baby in a bunting in the carseat, wrapping a blanket or 2 around him and carrying him out to the car, is a lot easier than dealing with a 4 year old) would be great.

If I were a parent dealing with this (I'm not, I have a 10 year old), I'd want some real information so that I can evaluate the situation and make the decision that's right for me. That decision might be complicated. If he's going to preschool where they go straight from carpool to the playground, I do the coat trick, and let him wear snowpants . . . If it's above negative 10 we do the fleece coat blanket thing, if we're traveling on rural roads where we might not be found for hours after an accident we buckle over the winter coat . . .


I do agree with some of your points.

*
What if while waiting for your car to warm up and your children are not restrained for 10-15minutes....someone rearends you...or loses control on the ice and hits your car????*

But at least you were waiting for a warm car to take their jackets off? NOPE it would be too late







.

What if while buckling in one child...the other child climbed over the seat and put the car in drive? There is nothing you could do to stop it...as you are on the other side of the car.

Prehaps while buckling in one child...a carjacker jumps in your car and drives away with your children in it.

These are all REAL RISKS TOO>


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

From FARS:

In 2008, 156 children ages 2,3,4 and 5 were killed from being ejected from the vehicle. In the same year, 66 infants 0-1 were killed in the same manner.

On average, 63% of children under 5 killed in any type of crash (ejected or not) were restrained.

Keep in mind that with ejected children, it is common for them to be listed as "unrestrained" since crash investigators cannot always determine whether the restraint was in use at the time of the crash.

More coming...


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## Momily (Feb 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
From FARS:

In 2008, 156 children ages 2,3,4 and 5 were killed from being ejected from the vehicle. In the same year, 66 infants 0-1 were killed in the same manner.

On average, 63% of children under 5 killed in any type of crash (ejected or not) were restrained.

Keep in mind that with ejected children, it is common for them to be listed as "unrestrained" since crash investigators cannot always determine whether the restraint was in use at the time of the crash.

More coming...

Were these events disproportionately represented in the winter or in colder climates? Controlling, of course for difference in accident rates due to snow and ice.

I'm not saying the statistics don't exist, just that if someone wanted to investigate this phenomena through the use of statistics they could.


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## elus0814 (Sep 21, 2009)

I was just thinking about this 'coats is carseats = unsafe' post compared to the 'bundle me's are unsafe' post and something just doesn't add up here. If it's ok to have your kid in a coat that is unzipped then rezipped outside the harness (leaving fabric behind them inside the harness but not inside the harness in front) then how could bundle me's be unsafe when it is exactly the same thing. A bundle me leaves a layer behind the child but does not put another in front inside the harness. I have seen some people who have posted in both and have said that a bundle me is unsafe but a coat zipped outside the harness is safe. Which is it people? Could it be that parents should just do their best to make the harness straps tight at the same time they minimize risk from cold exposure without stressing over every single new 'rule' that someone comes up with?


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elus0814* 
I was just thinking about this 'coats is carseats = unsafe' post compared to the 'bundle me's are unsafe' post and something just doesn't add up here. If it's ok to have your kid in a coat that is unzipped then rezipped outside the harness (leaving fabric behind them inside the harness but not inside the harness in front) then how could bundle me's be unsafe when it is exactly the same thing. A bundle me leaves a layer behind the child but does not put another in front inside the harness. I have seen some people who have posted in both and have said that a bundle me is unsafe but a coat zipped outside the harness is safe. Which is it people? Could it be that parents should just do their best to make the harness straps tight at the same time they minimize risk from cold exposure without stressing over every single new 'rule' that someone comes up with?

And I said that I am NOT comfortable with the 'coat trick'. I was throwing it out there as an alternative. Some people are not going to remove coats in the carseats, no matter what information I provide. The coat trick is certainly better than a full coat under the harness.

Furthermore, these are NOT "new 'rules'". They have existed as long as car seat safety has


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## medicmama (May 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maedze* 
If it's anything more bulky than non-fluffy polar fleece, yeah, it's pretty dangerous. There are ways you can mitigate that, by using polar fleece, by unzipping the coat, doing up the harness and tightening and zipping the coat over it, or taking the coat off and then putting it on backwards once the harness is done up.

In an accident, all that extra material compresses, leaving the child at risk for severe head and neck injuries or in a worst case scenario ejection from the seat.

Agreed!


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Since it is not recommended to have things behind the child other than manufature padding for a particular seat I do not see how the coat thing would be safe.

I think there are serveral things at play.

1. Some people do not realize other peoples situations. Sometimes it does become damned if you do and damned if you dont. I have cold urticarta http://allergies.about.com/od/urtica...durticaria.htm I simply could not stand out that extra 5 minutes to play with a child's jacket. I have live in upstate New York and in Minot, ND. Sitting in a cold car could be deadly for me also.

2. People need to rethink infant/toddler winter clothing. There needs to be a promotion in safe careseat winter clothing wear. There is a picture of a cape that, IMO, should be part of cold weather gear for toddlers and infants.

http://www.examiner.com/x-4832-Minne...ar-seat-safety

This will mean in some areas schools will need to change their requriements.

I personally like the cap idea because if I was in an accident with a toddler my child would have at least some covering.


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## butterfly_mommy (Oct 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elus0814* 
I was just thinking about this 'coats is carseats = unsafe' post compared to the 'bundle me's are unsafe' post and something just doesn't add up here. If it's ok to have your kid in a coat that is unzipped then rezipped outside the harness (leaving fabric behind them inside the harness but not inside the harness in front) then how could bundle me's be unsafe when it is exactly the same thing. A bundle me leaves a layer behind the child but does not put another in front inside the harness. I have seen some people who have posted in both and have said that a bundle me is unsafe but a coat zipped outside the harness is safe. Which is it people? Could it be that parents should just do their best to make the harness straps tight at the same time they minimize risk from cold exposure without stressing over every single new 'rule' that someone comes up with?

One of the other problems with the bundle me things is that they can cause the straps to not sit properly because you have to thread the strap through the back of the bundle me.

I have used the coat trick a few times and it takes me a while to make sure that the material is straight and not bunched on his shoulders and that the straps are sitting properly on his shoulders. I will not let my husband use the coat trick as he is not as meticulous at making sure DS' clothing is not bunched under his straps









I live in Canada, I do not have a driveway or garage and sometimes I have to walk a fair distance to the car. Most of the time what I do is dress DS is in layers and then in his fleece MEC one piece suit, warm boots, fleece balaclava and mittens. Then I put a blanket on him and he throws it off when he gets warm. If it is really cold DS will wear his winter coat over his fleece one piece till we get to the car and then it comes off and it either go over him backwards or I just through it in the car in case of emergencies or we need to walk from the car to wherever we are going.

My DS also does not think that a winter coat would make much difference in the safety of the car seat. However because he can not prove it is safe then I would rather err on the side of caution when it comes to my precious baby and keeping him safe in the car and be inconvenienced for a few months of the year. Also it actually does keep us even safer because I am not as quick to jump in the car and walk or take transit instead.

Also there are some snow pants that fit fine if you do the strap test with them (put them on put child in car seat, take them off and put child back in car seat, if no adjustment needed then they are fine, if adjustment needed then it is a no go) My daycare kid has snow pants that fit fine in her radian with no strap adjustment and I always do the pinch test every trip even if I have done no adjustment to the straps. The extra min or so is worth it to me to help reduce the chances of injury or death.


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## elus0814 (Sep 21, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *butterfly_mommy* 
One of the other problems with the bundle me things is that they can cause the straps to not sit properly because you have to thread the strap through the back of the bundle me.

I have used the coat trick a few times and it takes me a while to make sure that the material is straight and not bunched on his shoulders and that the straps are sitting properly on his shoulders. I will not let my husband use the coat trick as he is not as meticulous at making sure DS' clothing is not bunched under his straps









I live in Canada, I do not have a driveway or garage and sometimes I have to walk a fair distance to the car. Most of the time what I do is dress DS is in layers and then in his fleece MEC one piece suit, warm boots, fleece balaclava and mittens. Then I put a blanket on him and he throws it off when he gets warm. If it is really cold DS will wear his winter coat over his fleece one piece till we get to the car and then it comes off and it either go over him backwards or I just through it in the car in case of emergencies or we need to walk from the car to wherever we are going.

My DS also does not think that a winter coat would make much difference in the safety of the car seat. However because he can not prove it is safe then I would rather err on the side of caution when it comes to my precious baby and keeping him safe in the car and be inconvenienced for a few months of the year. Also it actually does keep us even safer because I am not as quick to jump in the car and walk or take transit instead.

Also there are some snow pants that fit fine if you do the strap test with them (put them on put child in car seat, take them off and put child back in car seat, if no adjustment needed then they are fine, if adjustment needed then it is a no go) My daycare kid has snow pants that fit fine in her radian with no strap adjustment and I always do the pinch test every trip even if I have done no adjustment to the straps. The extra min or so is worth it to me to help reduce the chances of injury or death.

Your statement about the bundle me is yet another false blanket statement given by someone who has not used a product. Like anything made for children parents have to use it properly. If a bundle me is just tossed in the seat then it could alter the way the harness fits but if the parent takes the extra few seconds to make sure it is in properly then it's no different than the coat 'trick'.


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## lifeguard (May 12, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marsupialmom* 

1. Some people do not realize other peoples situations. Sometimes it does become damned if you do and damned if you dont. I have cold urticarta http://allergies.about.com/od/urtica...durticaria.htm I simply could not stand out that extra 5 minutes to play with a child's jacket. I have live in upstate New York and in Minot, ND. Sitting in a cold car could be deadly for me also.

I have cold uticaria as well & it does totally change how you approach colder weather. Things I would have done without thinking about before I developed it I now would not even consider. Just doing up ds' buckles without my mittens on leaves me terribly itchy for up to an hour.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elus0814* 
Your statement about the bundle me is yet another false blanket statement given by someone who has not used a product. Like anything made for children parents have to use it properly. If a bundle me is just tossed in the seat then it could alter the way the harness fits but if the parent takes the extra few seconds to make sure it is in properly then it's no different than the coat 'trick'.

Sorry, it's a blanket statement that is totally true. The BundleMe is not ok to use. If you need something warm, go with a shower-cap style cover. Toasty warm and safe


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

The kind of real-world data some people are looking for doesn't and won't ever exist -- when kids are ejected or injured they are treated on the scene, not put back in their carseats with and without a coat to test the tightness of straps.

People -- not just posters here, but the entire Child Passenger Safety community -- who spend time and energy studiying this have concluded that puffy coats and especially BundleMes are unsafe. AFAIK, no carseat manufacturer allows the use of a BundleMe. It's illegal in most states to use carseats improperly, or with BundleMes.

In the end it's a parent's choice, though.


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## Momily (Feb 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
The kind of real-world data some people are looking for doesn't and won't ever exist -- when kids are ejected or injured they are treated on the scene, not put back in their carseats with and without a coat to test the tightness of straps.

People -- not just posters here, but the entire Child Passenger Safety community -- who spend time and energy studiying this have concluded that puffy coats and especially BundleMes are unsafe. AFAIK, no carseat manufacturer allows the use of a BundleMe. It's illegal in most states to use carseats improperly, or with BundleMes.

In the end it's a parent's choice, though.

No one's asking people to put injure children back in their seat, don't be ridiculous. It wouldn't be hard, if someone wanted to study it, to look at those 158 kids and figure out the percentage of cases where coats might have been a factor.

We can eliminate the kids not in seats at all (2/3)
We can eliminate the kids in boosters (probably a significant number, given that 4 and 5 year olds are included -- let's imagine 10%)
We can eliminate the children in parts of country, like Hawaii, where people don't wear puffy coats
We can eliminate the children ejected in seasons of the year when children typically don't wear coats.
We can eliminate children where they were ejected in the seat.
We can eliminate children in accidents that wouldn't have been survivable with or without ejection (let's say the car caught on fire on impact, or fell off a bridge).

Then we look at those children. The number would be small enough that we'd probably have to aggregate the data over several years. We'd have a much better sense of the number of incidents in which carseats might be a factor. Then we compare that number as a proportion of accidents to the number of children in 5 points restraints ejected at a time/place where they are almost definitely not wearing coats, and look for statistical significance.


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## paxye (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Sorry, it's a blanket statement that is totally true. The BundleMe is not ok to use. If you need something warm, go with a shower-cap style cover. Toasty warm and safe









I agree with the Bundle me, but I hate the shower cap styled ones...

I tried it when I had a bucket seat and my kid screamed because it is SO claustrophobic and it doesn't keep the seat warm at all when baby (without a coat) is going from under my coat in the wrap to the cold seat...

I use the Kokoon, like the Bundle me but with no threading and with a thin layer of fleece and corduroy on the back but with nothing touching the straps. It doesn't change anything at all of the way the seat functions and it does the job I need it to do.

(I have some pictures here of the back layer but I didn't show it with the right seat or the straps at the level for a baby because I didn't have a smaller seat available at the time but you can get the idea )


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
The kind of real-world data some people are looking for doesn't and won't ever exist -- when kids are ejected or injured they are treated on the scene, not put back in their carseats with and without a coat to test the tightness of straps.

People -- not just posters here, but the entire Child Passenger Safety community -- who spend time and energy studiying this have concluded that puffy coats and especially BundleMes are unsafe.

If data doesn't exist, what is the conclusion that puffy coats are unsafe based on? Those people who have spent time and energy studying the issue - what exactly was it they were studying?


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

A knowledge of how crashes happen, what happens during crashes, and how carseats work and don't work. And I didn't say that data didn't exist, just that the specific information -- whether puffy coats alone caused an ejection -- does not exist for obvious reasons. There is plenty of data that shows that loose straps are dangerous (ejection is not the only risk, increased head excursion is also a risk). Coats and BundleMes cause looser-than-optimal straps. Therefore, they are dangerous.


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## Daffodil (Aug 30, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
Coats and BundleMes cause looser-than-optimal straps. Therefore, they are dangerous.

This seems like the point where data may be lacking (or at least where people in this thread are wishing they could see some of it.) How often do they cause looser-than-optimal straps? (Probably not always, since people are saying they have coats their kids can wear without loosening their straps. Or do those people just have the straps too loose in summer?) How much looser than optimal are they, on average? Does it depend more on the thickness and material of the coat, or on how tightly the coat fits against the child's body? Is the problem mostly that parents are fooled into thinking the harness is tight when they see it touching the jacket, or is that even parents who get the harness as tight as they can can't compress it as much as it will be compressed in an accident?


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## momtoS (Apr 12, 2006)

I have seen many different posts stating that in a car accident the jacket would be left behind and the child ejected. Is this in a jacket that is upzipped? I am having a hard time picturing how the child's shoulders would fit out of the top of the jacket and be ejected? Or is the child and jacket ejected?


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## Twinklefae (Dec 13, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *momtoS* 
I have seen many different posts stating that in a car accident the jacket would be left behind and the child ejected. Is this in a jacket that is upzipped? I am having a hard time picturing how the child's shoulders would fit out of the top of the jacket and be ejected? Or is the child and jacket ejected?

Children's bones are very soft, because they are still growing. (That's why they are prone to green break fractures.) With that much pressure on them, the bones will bend and break and they will eject.


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## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momily* 
We can eliminate the kids not in seats at all (2/3)
We can eliminate the kids in boosters (probably a significant number, given that 4 and 5 year olds are included -- let's imagine 10%)
We can eliminate the children in parts of country, like Hawaii, where people don't wear puffy coats
We can eliminate the children ejected in seasons of the year when children typically don't wear coats.
We can eliminate children where they were ejected in the seat.
We can eliminate children in accidents that wouldn't have been survivable with or without ejection (let's say the car caught on fire on impact, or fell off a bridge).

That probably would work for a statistical analysis, which can be very useful in making policy recommendations.

But, as a mother strapping my kid into her seat, all I need is one piece of data: Has any child, anywhere, ever been ejected because the straps were too loose due to a puffy coat? Someone said earlier that she attended an accident where this happened. Assuming she is being truthful (and why wouldn't she be) that's enough for me. If it happened to someone else, it could happen to my child, too, and I'm going to take steps to make sure it doesn't happen.


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## SunshineJ (Mar 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
A knowledge of how crashes happen, what happens during crashes, and how carseats work and don't work. And I didn't say that data didn't exist, just that the specific information -- whether puffy coats alone caused an ejection -- does not exist for obvious reasons. There is plenty of data that shows that loose straps are dangerous (ejection is not the only risk, increased head excursion is also a risk). *Coats and BundleMes cause looser-than-optimal straps. Therefore, they are dangerous*.

Again, this is not necessarily true! Assuming the straps are correctly tightened in the first place, coats in a carseat are NOT unsafe _if the same tension or strap tightness is maintained._ As I stated previously, there was only 1 coat I ever felt the need to adjust the straps for, all other coats the kids had over the years I was able to compress enough without loosening the straps. I get the argument that if you have to loosen the straps to accomodate the coat then it's probably not a very safe idea. I get that, I think most here do. But you can't legitimately present only part of the facts and call it good either. That was like a comment someone made earlier saying that no coats in a carseat has been a policy since carseats have been around. I seriously, seriously doubt that considering the first devices billed as baby carseat travellers weren't even necessarily made to be strapped in and were advertised as much for convenience as safety.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Yes, you are correct that if the straps are properly tightened and a coat/jacket can be compressed underneath without any loosening, then it's probably not something to worry too much about.

I guess "properly tightened" is the key here. Out of all the seats I've checked and parents I've taught, I have seen very VERY few kids with properly tightened straps, and very few coats (other than fleece) that can be truly compressed under properly tightened straps.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onemomentatatime* 
But, as a mother strapping my kid into her seat, all I need is one piece of data: Has any child, anywhere, ever been ejected because the straps were too loose due to a puffy coat? Someone said earlier that she attended an accident where this happened. Assuming she is being truthful (and why wouldn't she be) that's enough for me. If it happened to someone else, it could happen to my child, too, and I'm going to take steps to make sure it doesn't happen.

That sounds like paranoid thinking to me... I mean... just getting into the car is a risk... sleeping is a risk... eating is a risk... being alive is a risk. You will always find "one child, somewhere" who has been hurt or killed due to something (even something totally innocuous)... I'm not saying to put your puffy-coated kid in the carseat (I wouldn't, personally), but using just one kid as your data probably isn't the best idea... I say this as a fellow paranoid mommy who *tries* to make decisions on facts not fear...


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## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *crunchy_mommy* 
That sounds like paranoid thinking to me... I mean... just getting into the car is a risk... sleeping is a risk... eating is a risk... being alive is a risk. You will always find "one child, somewhere" who has been hurt or killed due to something (even something totally innocuous)... I'm not saying to put your puffy-coated kid in the carseat (I wouldn't, personally), but using just one kid as your data probably isn't the best idea... I say this as a fellow paranoid mommy who *tries* to make decisions on facts not fear...









Yeah, I can see how it came off as paranoid, 'one child hurt' isn't generally my decisions making criteria! I wrote what I did because I started this thread and I'm really surprised at the life it has taken on. As a parent, I don't need reams of statistical analysis to make decisions, just a knowledge of the possibilities. I don't cease to do things just because one child has been hurt, otherwise we wouldn't drive, ride bikes, get on planes, walk down the stairs. I'm just saying that _in this case_, knowing that it is possible for a child to be killed by ejection while wearing a puffy coat is enough for me to stop putting my child in her seat while in her puffy coat.


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## crunchy_mommy (Mar 29, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onemomentatatime* 
Yeah, I can see how it came off as paranoid, 'one child hurt' isn't generally my decisions making criteria! I wrote what I did because I started this thread and I'm really surprised at the life it has taken on. As a parent, I don't need reams of statistical analysis to make decisions, just a knowledge of the possibilities. I don't cease to do things just because one child has been hurt, otherwise we wouldn't drive, ride bikes, get on planes, walk down the stairs. I'm just saying that _in this case_, knowing that it is possible for a child to be killed by ejection while wearing a puffy coat is enough for me to stop putting my child in her seat while in her puffy coat.

Phew... you had me a little worried, I'm super paranoid & didn't think ANYONE could be more paranoid than me!









Yes, I agree this thread has taken on a life of its own... I'm glad you started it, I never really thought about the coat being an issue and now I am much more aware of the issue, thanks!!


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## mommy2maya (Jun 7, 2003)

The bundleme I have in my infant seat is the same thickness fleece that my kids wear in their seats, and none of them need the straps any more loosened than they need them for jeans and sweatshirts. Honestly, I have to loosen the straps significantly when moving from tshirts/ shorts to sweatshirts and jeans in the winter. Should I just put my kids in their seats naked all the time to ensure correct slack? How about the difference when using cloth diapers? I have to loosen a LOT when I have a cloth diaper on my dd over when she is wearing a huggies.


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## Momily (Feb 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *onemomentatatime* 
That probably would work for a statistical analysis, which can be very useful in making policy recommendations.

But, as a mother strapping my kid into her seat, all I need is one piece of data: Has any child, anywhere, ever been ejected because the straps were too loose due to a puffy coat? Someone said earlier that she attended an accident where this happened. Assuming she is being truthful (and why wouldn't she be) that's enough for me. If it happened to someone else, it could happen to my child, too, and I'm going to take steps to make sure it doesn't happen.

No one is debating whether or not puffy coats have the potential to contribute to accidents. What people (or at least me since I seem to be posting on this thread a lot) are saying is that there are times when there are real safety concerns with exposing your child to the cold, and that parents might want to weigh those concerns. More information, including statistical information, would help parents who have concerns about hypothermia and frostbite (which also kill children) make educated decision. You can believe that puffy coats are not optimal for kids in carseats, an also decide that in a specific situation they're the best available option.

For the record, I do things frequently with my child that have lead to the death of other children. I take steps to minimize those risks, but I don't eliminate them. Today we went skiing/snowboarding, despite the fact that I am aware that people have died doing that.

I once made the choice to allow my toddler to ride in a car with just a seatbelt. I'm sure there are people who would condemn me for that choice. However, in my circumstances I felt it was the best choice. We had gone out for an outing on the subway without the stroller. My son was at the age where he wanted to walk and I thought it would be easier to walk with him if I wasn't also pushing the stroller. Of course I didn't bring a carseat, and I didn't happen to bring a carrier either.

When we were about 10 miles from home, my son fell, hit his head hard on the corner of a wheelchair ramp, which triggered either a breath holding spell or a seizure. He then passed out. We went to the nearest E.R.. When they finally released us it was 1 in the morning, dark, freezing cold (which we weren't dressed for, the temp had fallen dramatically when it got dark). The hospital was in a sketchy neighborhood, as was my home, there had been a series of armed robberies on the street we'd need to walk on to get home. My mother, who has a carseat in her car was on vacation, and any other friends I could think of who might be able to come get me with carseats are single parents so they'd need to bring their children who would then be occupying the carseat. Oh, and I was throwing up non-stop from the stress. And my son was dependent on a feeding tube and a pump -- which was at home, which meant that staying a hotel or sleeping in the hospital waiting room until daylight was out of the question.

I figured my choices were

1) Take subway home -- risk hypothermia (maybe I could have begged a blanket from the E.R.) risk me dropping him or falling while throwing up in the metro, and risk being mugged or killed walking from the metro.
2) Spend the night in the waiting room or a hotel. Risk dehydration for my child. Or feed him by mouth and risk pneumonia.
3) Take a taxi home. Have him sit in a seatbelt. Risk an accident.

I decided that #3 was the best idea, because I had some idea of the statistical likelihood of each one. Information helped me make a good choice.

But in CPST world (at least on this board) it doesn't work that way. When someone asks what the OP asked (they asked how bad it was, not whether it's bad) they get told it's bad, and don't ask questions. Like they're two and can't be trusted to make their own decisions.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Here's the thing: we can't know precisely, as in percentage points, how bad it is because there are so many variables. We do know it has the potential to be very bad. I, personally, am not very interested in arguing with parents who acknowledge that there is potential danger but they have made the choice to accept that risk. That's their right. I will argue with parents who claim there is no risk at all (and yes, some are claiming that), because for better or worse, that just doesn't make sense to me and I can't stand that.


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## AlishaB (Dec 15, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
I will argue with parents who claim there is no risk at all (and yes, some are claiming that), because for better or worse, that just doesn't make sense to me and I can't stand that.

I dont think any one was arguing that there is no risk at all. We all know that even having a child is a risk, actively birthing a child is a risk, introducing food is a risk, heck giving your child *any* type of toy has a risk....
What my argument was that I was willing to take that risk, when I live in a city that looked like this 2 weeks ago.


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## Wild Lupine (Jul 22, 2009)

Sorry Mama, what a difficult night you had with your son. I hope he is OK now.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momily* 
No one is debating whether or not puffy coats have the potential to contribute to accidents. *I assume you mean death and injury in accidents... actually I have read some people saying that they don't have the potential to contribute to injury. I realize that's not what you are saying, but I have read other posts in this thread saying that.* What people (or at least me since I seem to be posting on this thread a lot) are saying is that there are times when there are real safety concerns with exposing your child to the cold, and that parents might want to weigh those concerns. More information, including statistical information, would help parents who have concerns about hypothermia and frostbite (which also kill children) make educated decision. *I see your point here about statistics.* You can believe that puffy coats are not optimal for kids in carseats, an also decide that in a specific situation they're the best available option.

But in CPST world (at least on this board) it doesn't work that way. When someone asks what the OP asked (they asked how bad it was, not whether it's bad) they get told it's bad, and don't ask questions. Like they're two and can't be trusted to make their own decisions.

Just for the record, I *am* the OP of this thread, and I am very happy with the answers I got from the CPST's. I wanted information for my personal situation and they gave me that information. I never felt any judgment or condescension from them, and I appreciate them for freely sharing their knowledge and expertise.


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## Jill0905 (May 11, 2005)

What a light that has been turned on for me!! I have never heard of not wearing coats in the car seat nor I have ever seen an article regarding it. Thank you so much for opening my eyes. With dd who is 1 and rr, we take off her coat because it seems her normal body temperature runs about 120.1







and she is always sweaty after sitting in the car. So we take off her coat anyways. However with ds, who is 4 and ff, we leave his coat on. As it gets colder we have been pulling out his heavy coat. I am will taking to dh about this.

Thank you so much!


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## liza-s (Jul 19, 2008)

I have a question related to posts on this thread and was asked by a PP, but I never saw a response.

_-How do you remove your child from the car seat without loosening the straps? I'll admit that I might be a bit more cautious with my DCs shoulders due to a family trait of easily dislocated shoulders, but I can't get my son in & out of the car seat comfortably without loosening to remove & tightening when buckled it, every single time._

Incidentally, I love the carseat poncho idea. We are definitely doing that - heck I want one myself. I love driving with a blanket on my lap (no garage, no remote start, illegal to idle unoccupied car.)


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## natashaccat (Apr 4, 2003)

What about kids in boosters?


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momily* 
No one is debating whether or not puffy coats have the potential to contribute to accidents. What people (or at least me since I seem to be posting on this thread a lot) are saying is that there are times when there are real safety concerns with exposing your child to the cold, and that parents might want to weigh those concerns. More information, including statistical information, would help parents who have concerns about hypothermia and frostbite (which also kill children) make educated decision. You can believe that puffy coats are not optimal for kids in carseats, an also decide that in a specific situation they're the best available option.

For the record, I do things frequently with my child that have lead to the death of other children. I take steps to minimize those risks, but I don't eliminate them. Today we went skiing/snowboarding, despite the fact that I am aware that people have died doing that.

I once made the choice to allow my toddler to ride in a car with just a seatbelt. I'm sure there are people who would condemn me for that choice. However, in my circumstances I felt it was the best choice. We had gone out for an outing on the subway without the stroller. My son was at the age where he wanted to walk and I thought it would be easier to walk with him if I wasn't also pushing the stroller. Of course I didn't bring a carseat, and I didn't happen to bring a carrier either.

When we were about 10 miles from home, my son fell, hit his head hard on the corner of a wheelchair ramp, which triggered either a breath holding spell or a seizure. He then passed out. We went to the nearest E.R.. When they finally released us it was 1 in the morning, dark, freezing cold (which we weren't dressed for, the temp had fallen dramatically when it got dark). The hospital was in a sketchy neighborhood, as was my home, there had been a series of armed robberies on the street we'd need to walk on to get home. My mother, who has a carseat in her car was on vacation, and any other friends I could think of who might be able to come get me with carseats are single parents so they'd need to bring their children who would then be occupying the carseat. Oh, and I was throwing up non-stop from the stress. And my son was dependent on a feeding tube and a pump -- which was at home, which meant that staying a hotel or sleeping in the hospital waiting room until daylight was out of the question.

I figured my choices were

1) Take subway home -- risk hypothermia (maybe I could have begged a blanket from the E.R.) risk me dropping him or falling while throwing up in the metro, and risk being mugged or killed walking from the metro.
2) Spend the night in the waiting room or a hotel. Risk dehydration for my child. Or feed him by mouth and risk pneumonia.
3) Take a taxi home. Have him sit in a seatbelt. Risk an accident.

I decided that #3 was the best idea, because I had some idea of the statistical likelihood of each one. Information helped me make a good choice.

But in CPST world (at least on this board) it doesn't work that way. When someone asks what the OP asked (they asked how bad it was, not whether it's bad) they get told it's bad, and don't ask questions. Like they're two and can't be trusted to make their own decisions.

This is so well put - thank you for taking the time to write this all out. I agree 100%, BTW.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natashaccat* 
What about kids in boosters?

I really don't see how a kid in a booster is any different than an adult in a seatbelt. We don't tell adults to take off their coats before strapping in.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
I really don't see how a kid in a booster is any different than an adult in a seatbelt. We don't tell adults to take off their coats before strapping in.

Yes, we do. Most adults incorrectly wear their seatbelts, and that includes putting a coat on under the lap belt portion or shoulder belt portion of a seatbelt.

When you get in the car, either remove your coat, or unbutton it and spread it open so the belt contacts your body directly and does not lie over the coat.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natashaccat* 
What about kids in boosters?

As has been written, kids in boosters should not have puffy coats between their bodies and the belts either.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maedze* 
Yes, we do. Most adults incorrectly wear their seatbelts, and that includes putting a coat on under the lap belt portion or shoulder belt portion of a seatbelt.

When you get in the car, either remove your coat, or unbutton it and spread it open so the belt contacts your body directly and does not lie over the coat.

Thanks for the info. I swear, I have never heard that info ever. And I asked early on in this thread. If someone posted it, I missed it, but I don't think anyone did.

I have to say, I know people think I am anti carseat, but to be honest, my 2 year old is still rear facing. (which I decided after reading posts here, which is surprising, because so many people are less than polite when it comes to carseat safety.) My problem is with the idea that parents can't make these decisions for themselves. And also with the idea that anyone who makes a different decision, is either uneducated or doesn't care about their children. Momily's scenario perfectly illustrates why someone might make a valid choice that is different than most CPSTs.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

A lot of people are uneducated about child passenger safety. That's not a slam or a bash. No one knows everything about everything, or even everything about parenting. I am certainly uneducated in some areas.

Writing only for myself, I have no interest in slamming parents who make choices I wouldn't, if they are aware of the risks inherent in their choices. I post here to help parents learn about what risks come with what choices, and what can be done to reduce some of those risks. If a parent writes that she's going to turn her 366-day, 20.1# child forward-facing because she believes the risk of bent legs outweighs the risk of spinal cord damage, I'll post some facts. If she writes and demonstrates that she understands the risks but she's going to do it anyway because she wants to see his face, I'll walk away. I'll have an opinion, but I'll walk away because it's the parent's choice.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
A lot of people are uneducated about child passenger safety. That's not a slam or a bash. No one knows everything about everything, or even everything about parenting. I am certainly uneducated in some areas.

Writing only for myself, I have no interest in slamming parents who make choices I wouldn't, if they are aware of the risks inherent in their choices. I post here to help parents learn about what risks come with what choices, and what can be done to reduce some of those risks. If a parent writes that she's going to turn her 366-day, 20.1# child forward-facing because she believes the risk of bent legs outweighs the risk of spinal cord damage, I'll post some facts. If she writes and demonstrates that she understands the risks but she's going to do it anyway because she wants to see his face, I'll walk away. I'll have an opinion, but I'll walk away because it's the parent's choice.

Yup, pretty much that.

I'll share information for those who want to hear, but arguing with people serves nothing more than to keep the people who make Tums in business.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

I am referring to the fact that there is not room for risk assessment from many posters here. A pp said somethign about going home from the emergency room in the middle of the night without a carseat for her child. Yes she may have gotten in a car accident, but the risk was very small. HEr decision was a valid one.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

If you want anyone remotely associated with child passenger safety to agree with you, you're not going to get it.

It was not a 'valid decision'. The singular 'risk' every time you get behind the wheel is small, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a trip just like that one every time someone is killed or seriously injured, and that because people make those 'valid' decisions, car crashes remain the number one killer of children.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

I can understand why she made the decision she did without agreeing that it was a safe or good or "valid" choice. Sometimes there are no good choices, but the lack of good choices doesn't suddenly make a bad choice good.


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## jjawm (Jun 17, 2007)

I simply want to say that because of this thread, I've made it a point to take off dd's coat every time she's in her carseat. So thanks to everyone.


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## Momily (Feb 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
I can understand why she made the decision she did without agreeing that it was a safe or good or "valid" choice. Sometimes there are no good choices, but the lack of good choices doesn't suddenly make a bad choice good.

As the parent in question, what would you have suggested I do? What would the "valid" choice have been?


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## Aubergine68 (Jan 25, 2008)

I haven't read the whole thread, so forgive me if this was answered, but I'm wondering about the definition of "puffy coat".

My youngest wears a fleece-lined nylon shell "car" coat, which is a warmer coat for cold weather but not a down-filled type -- not a fleece sweater, either, though. I'm assuming that if the straps don't need to be loosened when he's wearing it, it should still be ok? Is that the rule of thumb?

I do keep the straps pretty tight -- dh always complains about how snug they are, though ds seems ok once they are done up.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momily* 
As the parent in question, what would you have suggested I do? What would the "valid" choice have been?

Many hospital-based social workers have carseats or access to them, and some police stations do too. Some taxi services provide carseats on request. I don't blame you -- the hospital should not have discharged you if you did not have a safe ride home for you AND your son.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Aubergine68* 
I haven't read the whole thread, so forgive me if this was answered, but I'm wondering about the definition of "puffy coat".

My youngest wears a fleece-lined nylon shell "car" coat, which is a warmer coat for cold weather but not a down-filled type -- not a fleece sweater, either, though. I'm assuming that if the straps don't need to be loosened when he's wearing it, it should still be ok? Is that the rule of thumb?

I do keep the straps pretty tight -- dh always complains about how snug they are, though ds seems ok once they are done up.


You're good







For definition's sake, a 'puffy' coat is anything more than either a windbreaker/hoodie or a layer of polar fleece. 3-in-1 jackets, down jackets, thick corduroy or jean jackets, particularly those with liners, would all be 'puffy' coats.


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## natashaccat (Apr 4, 2003)

regarding the suggestion to zip coat over carseat straps...wouldn't this pose an additional hazard because it would make removing a child from car in case of an accident more difficult?

FWIW I put dd in her seat w/o jacket at the strap setting I was using w/her down coat on. There was something like 6 inches of slack in the straps! I can, however, smoosh her down coat down well enough that it will fit under the strap setting we'd use w/o her coat.

This is a tough issue for those of us that drive in sub zero temps. Choosing between the obvious immediate danger/discomfort from cold and the hypothetical risk posed by loose straps isn't black and white.


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## Momily (Feb 15, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
Many hospital-based social workers have carseats or access to them, and some police stations do too. Some taxi services provide carseats on request. I don't blame you -- the hospital should not have discharged you if you did not have a safe ride home for you AND your son.


No carseats through social workers (maybe at the Children's Hospital but not at this one), or taxis here. I'm not sure I even get the police suggestion -- yes, they sometimes have them, but if walking the streets to the subway wasn't safe, then how would I walk to the police station?

As far as discharging him -- with his lung issues, the germs on a pediatric unit would have been an issue too. Keeping him overnight in the hospital or in the E.R. wouldn't have been the solution.


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## Hazelnut (Sep 14, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *an_aurora* 
Coats are fine as long as you don't have to adjust the straps out to accomodate the extra bulk. I usually have the kids in good-quality fleece over thermal tops, and put their warm coats on as we leave the car. Anthing that requires you let the straps out is too thick and not safe, period.

This is what I thought. I keep seeing coats/no coats, but it seems like it can really vary. I thought it was only puffy coats that were dangerous. I have never buckled them in in puffy coats or snowsuits- In fact my 6yo is currently wearing a hugely puffy coat and is great about taking it off before doing his radian straps. However, my 4 and 2yo have non-puffy coats. I worry, b/c they still bunch sometimes, but I have the impossible-to-adjust radians, so I don't loosen them and just huff and puff to buckle them as is, over the coat. It's how they were adjusted _before_ the coat. So does it matter if the coat is under there?

And while we're on the topic, the difficulty of adjusting our radian straps and making them tight makes me wonder why they're so great. And maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I was under the impression that you could fit two fingers under straps. The no coat statements make it sound like they should be skin tight. With my ff kids shoulders under the straps, they almost don't seem tight.







: They're tight at the chest. How loose do they have to be to risk ejected?


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Momily* 
No carseats through social workers (maybe at the Children's Hospital but not at this one), or taxis here. I'm not sure I even get the police suggestion -- yes, they sometimes have them, but if walking the streets to the subway wasn't safe, then how would I walk to the police station?

As far as discharging him -- with his lung issues, the germs on a pediatric unit would have been an issue too. Keeping him overnight in the hospital or in the E.R. wouldn't have been the solution.


Momily - your choice was valid. I think this proves that there IS more than one good choice in many circumstances. I've found that people who are extremely militant tend to not ever had to make difficult choices.

I'm glad you guys made it home safe


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
Many hospital-based social workers have carseats or access to them, and some police stations do too. Some taxi services provide carseats on request. I don't blame you -- the hospital should not have discharged you if you did not have a safe ride home for you AND your son.


So if none of these were available, then what? In the middle of the night, I guarantee a busy metropolitan police station is NOT going to drive a carseat over for someone. They have much bigger fish to fry. And taxi companies? That's laughable. My last child was born at a big teaching hospital, which also had a Ronald Mcdonald's childrens hospital. Do you know, they didn't even walk us to the door? Many hospitals are too busy to police carseat usage, and are busy spending money on medical technology, not free carseats.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

I wasn't there, and neither were you. It's pointless to speculate: I can come up with a dozen possible ways to get a carseat, and you can come up with a dozen and one reasons why they wouldn't have worked. My point is that a child being in a car without a carseat is never safe. We can argue about risk assessment and choices, but that you perceive the other choices as worse does not make not using a carseat a safe choice. I have no interest in rehashing something that's over and done and everyone's fine and I'm glad, but I will argue that a child travelling without a carseat is never a "valid" choice.

And you are wrong about my being militant (trust me, there are carseat people WAY more militant than me), and even more wrong that I've never had to make hard choices.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
I wasn't there, and neither were you. It's pointless to speculate: I can come up with a dozen possible ways to get a carseat, and you can come up with a dozen and one reasons why they wouldn't have worked. My point is that a child being in a car without a carseat is never safe. We can argue about risk assessment and choices, but that you perceive the other choices as worse does not make not using a carseat a safe choice. I have no interest in rehashing something that's over and done and everyone's fine and I'm glad, but I will argue that a child travelling without a carseat is never a "valid" choice.

And you are wrong about my being militant (trust me, there are carseat people WAY more militant than me), and even more wrong that I've never had to make hard choices.


Bottom line, though, it WAS safe.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hazelnut* 
And while we're on the topic, the difficulty of adjusting our radian straps and making them tight makes me wonder why they're so great. And maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I was under the impression that you could fit two fingers under straps. The no coat statements make it sound like they should be skin tight. With my ff kids shoulders under the straps, they almost don't seem tight.







: They're tight at the chest. How loose do they have to be to be ejected?

The test for tightness is not two fingers under the straps: it is not being able to pinch any strap horizontally at shoulder level.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
Bottom line, though, it WAS safe.

No, it was lucky.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

If there is additional information to share about carseat safety with or without coats, that is great.

Otherwise, this thread seems about ready to be done.

Happy New Year!!!


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## aprilsnow (Jan 2, 2010)

Wow, I had no idea that coats in car seats were dangerous. I am the type to do tons of research on everything related to parenting, but this never even crossed my mind. I will stop putting DD in the carseat with her coat on! Thanks!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
No, it was lucky.

No. It wasn't unlucky. There's a difference. When someone beats the odds in a positive way, they're lucky. When someone beats the odds in a negative way, they're unlucky. The simple fact is that the vast majority of car rides end safely.

That's all I'm going to say, because this topic makes my head hurt.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
No. It wasn't unlucky. There's a difference. When someone beats the odds in a positive way, they're lucky. When someone beats the odds in a negative way, they're unlucky. *The simple fact is that the vast majority of car rides end safely.*
That's all I'm going to say, because this topic makes my head hurt.

THis is so so true. Thank you stormbride.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
Momily - your choice was valid. I think this proves that there IS more than one good choice in many circumstances. I've found that people who are extremely militant tend to not ever had to make difficult choices.

I'm glad you guys made it home safe









It was not a valid choice.

It was not a good choice.

I am not militant, I'm educated.

And you know nothing about what choices I have and have not had to make.

She got lucky.


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## Maedze (Dec 16, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *vbactivist* 
Bottom line, though, it WAS safe.

No, it was lucky. HUGE difference, and fairly basic one.


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Maedze* 
It was not a valid choice.

It was not a good choice.

I am not militant, I'm educated.

And you know nothing about what choices I have and have not had to make.

She got lucky.

How can you say it was not a valid choice for HER??? It WAS a valid choice for HER and it WAS A GOOD choice at that time. You can argue about it all you like, it doesn't change the outcome.

You are right, I know nothing about the choices you haev made or any other posters on this thread, that is why I left my earlier statement general. I did not refer to any particular person. If you don't consider yourself militant, than I'm not referring to you.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2* 
If there is additional information to share about carseat safety with or without coats, that is great.

Otherwise, this thread seems about ready to be done.

Happy New Year!!!

Just wanted to point this out!

Please, keep on topic to the OP. Any more off topic discussion could result in this thread being closed.


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## paxye (Mar 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natashaccat* 

This is a tough issue for those of us that drive in sub zero temps. Choosing between the obvious immediate danger/discomfort from cold and the hypothetical risk posed by loose straps isn't black and white.

I drive in subzero temps many months in the winter and the boys don't have their coats on... There is no "obvious" danger/discomfort from the cold... even at -30... and again, I don't have a garage nor do we we preheat the car...

They either do the coat trick or take their coats off completely, get strapped in and then put their coats on backwards and in the last weeks I have put some blankets in the car that they can put on also... I have never heard a complaint...


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## hibiscus mum (Apr 6, 2009)

This is a timely thread for me. I don't put my kids in coats when they go in their carseats. I live in Ontario, Canada, and like others have mentioned, it can get pretty darn cold. We make it work with blankets, so far. But anyone who's noticed this, either family, other parents at DD's daycare, fellow moms in my moms group - well, they look at me like I'm nuts! Seriously, I'm almost positive that EVERYONE I know with kids puts their coats on in the carseat. I guess it's because sometimes I'll just let DD run from the car into daycare in her polar fleece and stuff her coat in her bag. I've gotten looks and been asked, "Where's her coat!?" I just reply, "I don't put my kids in coats in their carseats." and leave it at that. But I'm sure people think I'm the local crazy lady.


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## StoriesInTheSoil (May 8, 2008)

I'd like to interject into this thread, if I may, a thought about "militant" car-seat people and their apparent "inability" to make risk-assesments.

I think that it's probable that many of the people who have the mindset that car-seat usage is a fluid thing and isn't a fact-based black-and-white issue have _likely_ never worked in a profession where they saw pictures and video of real accidents involving real children. I'd also wager a guess that they've never worked in a profession where they go on-site to accidents involving seriously injured or dead children. It is such a horrible thing to see that I believe that this thing called "risk assesment" would be thrown out the window in an _effort_ to make sure that one would never have to witness that kind of scene involving her own child.

I am not being judgemental and I don't mean to be rude, I'm just stating that maybe there are _reasons_ that certain people have the views that they do about car safety and those reasons likely have NOTHING to do with making anyone feel like a bad parent on the internet for kicks and giggles. The CPSTs here do us a real service- why do people seem so bent on pushing them out?


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## vbactivist (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *tinyactsofcharity* 
I'd like to interject into this thread, if I may, a thought about "militant" car-seat people and their apparent "inability" to make risk-assesments.

I think that it's probable that many of the people who have the mindset that car-seat usage is a fluid thing and isn't a fact-based black-and-white issue have _likely_ never worked in a profession where they saw pictures and video of real accidents involving real children. I'd also wager a guess that they've never worked in a profession where they go on-site to accidents involving seriously injured or dead children. It is such a horrible thing to see that I believe that this thing called "risk assesment" would be thrown out the window in an _effort_ to make sure that one would never have to witness that kind of scene involving her own child.

I am not being judgemental and I don't mean to be rude, I'm just stating that maybe there are _reasons_ that certain people have the views that they do about car safety and those reasons likely have NOTHING to do with making anyone feel like a bad parent on the internet for kicks and giggles. The CPSTs here do us a real service- why do people seem so bent on pushing them out?

Life is not black and white. So people's choices aren't always going to be black and white. Is it usually safer to follow best practice regarding car seat usage? Absolutely! But there has to be room for the FACT that there are tiems when best practice would not be safest overall in a given situation. It would be nice if people here could acknowledge that they don't have the intimate detaiils of every situation, and so they cannot say, without a doubt, what is best for every person in every setting.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

The thread is now closed.


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