# I am different from you. I do not feel bad for making my sister cry...



## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Help! My almost 5 yo spends the wole day purposefully making her 3 yo sister mad. For instance, the little one is reaching for a bottle of water and the eldest runs to get it first and then shouts "I got it first" Or she will say "I will not invite you to my birthday party"... The little one is so cool. She will answer to her sister:"Well, this was not a race to get the bottle" or "Anyway, mom said she cannot leave me home alone, so I'll come to your birthday" (it is going to be in 2 months!)
I know that almost 5 yo is picking this language and attitude from the pre-school they both attend.







: but I am at a loss at what to do about it.
I have read "Sib without rivalry" and I have been able to deal better with battles over toys, encouraging them to come up with solutions. However, this is now different because there is no real problem in fact, to be solved....which makes it is hard to brainstorm for a solution








I always say things like "How do you think your sister feels" and "Please tell me what happened as though you were your sister"... But now even that falls on deaf ears because the eldest is now telling me she just does not care how her sis feels and she actually likes to make her feel bad....


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

There is a difference between saying you don't care and really, truly not caring.

That said, it's possible the older child feels marginalized, less important than the 'baby', has somehow gotten herself the label of 'mean brat without feeling' (things can get very exaggerated in the mind of a child) , and can't figure out a way to stop being that person. Yesterday had a lot of talk about changing old patterns and it seems appropriate here.

First-- your older child is still very young. She may be the oldest, but she is still a very young child. Try to imprint that on your heart as best you can, even when you see her acting in trying ways). Being born first doesn't make you all grown up. In fact, it can be very confusing for some kids. The expectations to be big are there, but the small child can often fail miserably at such expectations.

As for pattern changing, I'd stop commenting on everything she might do to her sister. Be available to comfort the younger child if need be, But as for getting to the water first, so what? Really, in the end, it does not matter. Sometimes not even to the smaller child. If you think it's going to happen, have the water ready for them both, and maybe hand them to the children at the same time. My two middle children are 16 months apart in age, and this was often a handy strategy. I'd head it off at the pass by being in control of who gets what. I didn't have to do this forever, but it made some things a total non issue.

I would also never encourage any competition between sibs myself- fi, no saying "Who can get in the car first?" when I was trying trying to get them to move. Instead, I would often say 'lets hold hands and hurry to the car'. Even if a kid says "I touched first!" you can say happily "and I touched last! Horray for me. We're the Winner Family Team!" or something.







No kidding that sounds nuts, but that's the way it is at times.







Better to laugh than cry. Having fun and making some things silly jokes takes the pressure off. It also keeps the small things from escalating into something it needn't become.

I'd try to find the positive in her day, baby her a little, and by that I mean read to her, sit with her a few times in the day, have a little fun. When you walk by her tell her stuff like "If you were any more darling i would have to eat you up". Just silly stuff. Say things like that to all the kids. And to your partner as well. It's important to remember to have light moments in a day.

I know this isn't being firm and 'setting limits', but sometimes you hae to backtrack to the basic relationship, get that back, learn to enjoy and see the good in the child etc to shatter the child's old image of herself. I'd step in if she were being mean, but i wouldn't make it all about her sister's feelings and try to see what is up with the feelings of the cranking child. Not as an excuse, but as information, I would think about whether the child was recently stressed, is hugnry, tired, or perhaps feeling that the baby is great in everyone's eyes and she's nothing but a bully. *That* thinking is why you need to backtrack.

A parent in these situations has to always on the move to head off some of this. An easy example for me of heading trouble off is coming home after a tiring outing. I know kids may be stressed, you know she is probably going to be prickly to everyone. So to keep her from attacking, you hold her hand, or if there are two people, you carry her gently and lovingly (if you can) and help her get done what she needs to get done.

My kids are a little older, but sometimes I've been lax and sent two tired, cranky, stressed kids into the same bathroom together to brush their teeth before bed. That is simply a recipe for disaster. "He took the toothpaste, move, you're in my way, hey!!....yada yada yada.". If i am thinking striaght, I send the older or less stressed child alone into my bathroom (or to get their pjs on) while I or dh takes take the totally losing- it -kid, and help get the toothpaste etc. All the while trying to be calm. If i am really smart, I simply tuck them into bed. Sometimes there are enough parents to go around and we each get one. A little one- on -one when a child is really needing it helps a bunch.

It can be tiring. No--it *is* tiring. But one of our jobs is to help kids lean to cope-- and we help small children cope by not overwhelming them. What seems a simple deal to us, can be something else entirely to a small child.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Thanks for your reply UUmom. The thing is, it is not only tiring, it is SO unrewarding too.
I do many of the things you say. I never foster any competition, I always do that thing "I touched second", so much that the little one really does think it is cool to be second. I try all my best to prevent conflicts. Really I do. I try to spend time on one-to-one, and - in spite of the fact I am single-parenting the kids 4 days a week plus I work full time - I actually manage to spend quality time every day with the eldest, mainly because the youngest is a relatively low-maintanance kid (she will play unsupervised for a long time, she just enjoys playing with her dolls and dressing like a witch or a princess and dancing with me pretending to be her king.... ... now it's a different thing to get her to do anything.... like joining a family dinner or a family game or family meeting... )
So dd1 and I prepare and mostly eat dinner together, since dd2 seems to prefer eating on the run and we rather enjoy a sit-down meal, actually ..... and we talk a lot...
All this does not prevent dd1 to take just any occasion to be nasty to dd2. Dd2 is actually very smart for her age and thinks little of these things herself. She lives in her dream-world most of the time. The thing is, however, it goes on and on all day and eventually, at some point of the day, she does get MAD. And it can take me AN HOUR to get her to calm down. I DO NOT have that time! I come home at 6 I have to make dinner, get them to eat some of the dinner, get pajamas on, brush teeth, read stories and get them to sleep max by 20:30 or the next day they are SOOO tired... All this on my own 4 evenings out of 7 .. This stresses me out - really - and I wind up having a grown-up version of a temper tantrum... like I slam the kitchen closet doors again and again and again and finally I regain composure... I know that is bad but I have to let out of this rage somehow... even the kids know it is bad and they say... "Don't do that mommy that is not good for you...."
It also doesn't help that my dh is not into GD, neither with me nor with the kids... He is a nice person but tends to get angry too often for small things.... Sorry, I am rambling, I guess I needed to let this out...


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

It is overwhelming at times.







While I sound like a borken record, (anyone remember records?) I would start by having more fun, and trying to prevent as much as you can.

Unless there is something actually wrong with her brain, empathy will develop. Remember that you can't read her mind. She may feel bad but be too hurt or proud to show it. Making time for fun and laughter might help you get closer so she feels she can break away from her past. Funny to think small children have a past. Make time to snuggle at night in the dark. Read or don't read. Tell her stories about your childhood. Deepen your bond.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

For a different spin on sibling rivalry try reading "Mom, Jason's Breathing on ME!" by Anthony Wolf.

For our family "Siblings without Rivalry" I came to recognize was creating WAY more rivalry, even though I initially though it was good. Instead it was creating resentment in my olderst DD. It was subtle but it was happening.

The Anthony Wolf book believes in a VERY hands off approach to sibling relationships. NO you getting involved asking DD 1 how she thinks she is making DD 2 feel. No worrying when DD 1 is "mean" to DD 2.

As soon as I started implementing his approaches it got immediately better. For us, his belief that any time you get involved you are making one child think that you are somehow taking the others side was simply true.

Anyway, I highly reccomend TRYING this approach. For us it brang a peace and joy to our family life.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
For a different spin on sibling rivalry try reading "Mom, Jason's Breathing on ME!" by Anthony Wolf.

For our family "Siblings without Rivalry" I came to recognize was creating WAY more rivalry, even though I initially though it was good. Instead it was creating resentment in my olderst DD. It was subtle but it was happening.

The Anthony Wolf book believes in a VERY hands off approach to sibling relationships. NO you getting involved asking DD 1 how she thinks she is making DD 2 feel. No worrying when DD 1 is "mean" to DD 2.

As soon as I started implementing his approaches it got immediately better. For us, his belief that any time you get involved you are making one child think that you are somehow taking the others side was simply true.

Anyway, I highly reccomend TRYING this approach. For us it brang a peace and joy to our family life.


I am actually all about not talking about feelings every single minute with some children in some situations.

It's not that feelings aren't incredibly important- they are. But little kids are about impulse, not premeditation. Lttle children cannot always clearly articulate certain things and often we adults put things in their hearts that are not even there. A 4 yr old trying to be first isn't thinking about hurting her sister, she's being impulsive about wanting to be first. We can't expect a little one to have the saavy of a trained therapist.

When you start talking about feelings, her sister's or her own, it might be that she can't possibly articulate why she did something, except that she wanted the water and ran to it. So then she starts to think she doesn't care. That could be why she is saying that-- she may not even be sure what you're actually asking. She can't articulate "I just ran to the water because i ran to the water" as you are asking her why she would do that. A kid just does. They aren't thinking their impulses through to an end.

When all the other stuff is put into the mix, she realizes she doesn't have an answer and is trying to give back to the parent what the parent is expressing. : "Don't you *care* about your sister's feelings??" And she might be thinking, I wasn't even thinking about my sister when I went for the water" and the sibling processes it that she really must not care about her sister's feelings, and the cycle begins.

Yeah, I would stop that for now, simply because it's not seeming to help the child and is giving her 4 yr old self a mean label she doesn't even understand, but will make part of her psyche. "I've always been mean to my sister. That's who i am". Gotta change that before it sets.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

UU Mom, I was responding to the OP's statement that she does ask her dc about her siblings feelings.

And I think you are right about why a child might respond in that manner.

In any event the book I suggested is just a whole new way of looking at the sibling relationship and the resentments that can build when we as parents think we are helping them be empathetic or problem solve!


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
UU Mom, I was responding to the OP's statement that she does ask her dc about her siblings feelings.


That's what I thought you meant, and what I thought I was responding to. I think. lol Did i misunderstand? I was agreeing.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

I just wanted to share an article I just found...

http://www.naomialdort.com/articles.html

"When Lennon was 4 1/2, he became very annoying and sometimes aggressive toward his I 1/2-year-old brother, Oliver. Since this was a new behavior in our house, we didn't think much about it initially and just brushed him off with orders to stop it - in a stern voice. Two weeks later, when alone with Lennon, I expressed my love for him and told him what a wonderful person he was. I was shaken by his response: "You don't love me. I am terrible."

"Why?" I asked anxiously, and he answered: "Because I hurt Oliver." A child who was never punished and had always been a cheerful delight was wilting in front of my eyes with jealousy and was developing a low self-image.

That day I started hugging him every time he disturbed or hurt Oliver. I know this sounds like a reward - but only to us grown-ups. A child who hurts is not experiencing himself as being bad. He is experiencing a deep pain, loneliness, lovelessness and loss of control. I responded to his cry for help and love by giving him what he needed. My initial reaction was based on fear and was therefore counter-productive, When I ordered Lennon to stop disturbing his brother - then and only then were his feelings of being "bad" internalized and reinforced. If I had continued scolding him, he may have turned into a bitter bully. Instead, I changed my behavior and responded to his plea for love.

Discovering the source of the problem - jealousy - led me to devote a lot of one-on-one time with Lennon, boosting his self-image. "I am so lucky to share life with you," "You are so important to me," "I love you," "What an awesome person you are" are all words I shared in our times together. When he hurt his brother, I would stop him gently, give love, and say "You are a wonderful person. I see that you want to hurt your brother. It is normal to feel that way. I love you just the same when you are hurting him, but we cannot hurt him. When you grow up you'll be able to control yourself. For now I'll help you." And I helped him until he recovered his exuberance and love of life, of himself, and of his brother. "

mmmmhhhh... makes you think....


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Maya 44 thanks for the book suggestion. I'll try to find it. Because I live in Europe, though, it takes a long time to get books shipped here. When you have time, could you give me more details about this approach? I understand what I should NOT do, but what _should_ I do then? TIA...


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gaialice*
I just wanted to share an article I just found...

http://www.naomialdort.com/articles.html

"When Lennon was 4 1/2, he became very annoying and sometimes aggressive toward his I 1/2-year-old brother, Oliver. Since this was a new behavior in our house, we didn't think much about it initially and just brushed him off with orders to stop it - in a stern voice. Two weeks later, when alone with Lennon, I expressed my love for him and told him what a wonderful person he was. I was shaken by his response: "You don't love me. I am terrible."

"Why?" I asked anxiously, and he answered: "Because I hurt Oliver." A child who was never punished and had always been a cheerful delight was wilting in front of my eyes with jealousy and was developing a low self-image.

That day I started hugging him every time he disturbed or hurt Oliver. I know this sounds like a reward - but only to us grown-ups. A child who hurts is not experiencing himself as being bad. He is experiencing a deep pain, loneliness, lovelessness and loss of control. I responded to his cry for help and love by giving him what he needed. My initial reaction was based on fear and was therefore counter-productive, When I ordered Lennon to stop disturbing his brother - then and only then were his feelings of being "bad" internalized and reinforced. If I had continued scolding him, he may have turned into a bitter bully. Instead, I changed my behavior and responded to his plea for love.

Discovering the source of the problem - jealousy - led me to devote a lot of one-on-one time with Lennon, boosting his self-image. "I am so lucky to share life with you," "You are so important to me," "I love you," "What an awesome person you are" are all words I shared in our times together. When he hurt his brother, I would stop him gently, give love, and say "You are a wonderful person. I see that you want to hurt your brother. It is normal to feel that way. I love you just the same when you are hurting him, but we cannot hurt him. When you grow up you'll be able to control yourself. For now I'll help you." And I helped him until he recovered his exuberance and love of life, of himself, and of his brother. "

mmmmhhhh... makes you think....


That's lovely, and Naomi must have been affected by Eda LeShan's work. Eda rocks. She's the author of When Your Child Drives You Crazy. A book, which, Imo, is GD and UP, but not TCS.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gaialice*
Maya 44 thanks for the book suggestion. I'll try to find it. Because I live in Europe, though, it takes a long time to get books shipped here. When you have time, could you give me more details about this approach? I understand what I should NOT do, but what _should_ I do then? TIA...


I honestly can't think of anything more than I've aready posted. I thoughtmy first post might be helpdful. lol I also thought the PPs all had good suggestions. You have to start with the small things and the bigger things will fall into place.

I'll keep thinking. But there is no instant solution.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Thanks UUMom. Yes, your replies were helpful... especially the idea of not getting dd1 into the role of the "mean girl"... in fact she already is in that role...
I was in fact referring very specifically to the book Maya44 suggested...


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gaialice*
Thanks UUMom. Yes, your replies were helpful... especially the idea of not getting dd1 into the role of the "mean girl"... in fact she already is in that role...
I was in fact referring very specifically to the book Maya44 suggested...


LOL I was just thinking, 'dang, I'm stumped' and felt bad.

I'm not fishing, I was really trying to helpful. lol It'll be ok. Baby steps.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

Not sure this is helpful or not,







: (and disclaimer, I am coming from a homeschooling perspective), but the communication patterns that you are trying to eliminate from dd1 are effective coping skills in school environments. Therefore, I believe it is a bit counterproductive, and disempowering to disavow them. I am not saying that I would advocate for them, but I think I would take the position of modeling how to advocate for oneself instead. I believe it sounds like you have apparently done this since dd2 is so articulate and self-assured at come backs.

Anyway, I just wanted to share a different perspective that the competitive, "I am better than you are" environment of school can not be disengaged from their Self, just because they are at home, unfortunately. I would feel pretty confident that the dd1 *knows* how it feels to be on the receiving end of that type of one-upmanship, since she is seeing it modelled elsewhere. I am inclined to agree with Naomi Aldort that children hurt others when they hurt inside. But the whole "I'm best" attitude is inescapable in most of our culture, and the 'put others down to make yourself feel better' tactic is prevalent and therefore needs to be explored in the safe environment of home. Basically, I think it is par for the course; so continue to help to empower both children by providing opportunities to shine _as a team_, which will nurture portable negotiation and team building skills.

Such as 'wow, you are so fast, would you get me a glass of water too?' Thanks. 'We are so lucky to have a bunch of friends coming to your birthday, we don't need to exclude anyone.' Intentionally turning the negative into a positive and modelling how to come out ahead together instead of win-lose that is being demonstrated at school. Model abundance and gratitude instead of focusing on the win-lose dynamic. The ole adage, show *what to do* ,instead of what _not_ to do. And they will become more abled to do this at school too. Knowing how to stand up for oneself is a skill that needs to be practiced. And dd1 may be seeking guidance on how to do that without knowing how to ask. Dd2 seems to be helping dd1 "practice" this type of engagement. That is one of the benefits of siblings too. Kind of the rough and tumble banter of practicing social skills unique (and useful) to their school environment.

HTH, Pat


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

The basics is to let them work out their difference themselves. No parent saying "that's not nice" or even "how can we work something out"

If they are going at it, you NEVER take sides. The only time you single one out is if they are about to inflcit REAL harm.

So if dd1 is hitting dd 2 the response is "You two cut that out right now" No blaming (though saying "DD1 no pushing near the stairs" is OK, since DD2 could get hurt if she fell down stairs)

As for meaness, always ignore it IN FRONT of the OTHER. Discussing the other sib is done later IN PRIVATE "Boy your sister sure was mean to you today. Its hard to be the little sister huh?" "

The book was good for us in explaining that often by paying attention to what siblings say to each other in front of the perpetrator you make things worse ("that baby she alwasy gets mom on her side!"). And that the nastiness the perpetuate on each other does not have to be that big a deal.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gaialice*
I always say things like "How do you think your sister feels" and "Please tell me what happened as though you were your sister"... But now even that falls on deaf ears because the eldest is now telling me she just does not care how her sis feels and she actually likes to make her feel bad....

You know, I tend to think that when you get responses like this it's because you're asking a question that they either obviously already know the answer to or are ashamed to answer. Like the pp said, telling you that her sister feels bad because of what she did is embarrassing. Maybe you could try more description. Just say what you observe and let her draw her own conclusions. And if dd2 is sticking up for herself okay, I'd stay out of it.

I read Sibs w/o Rivalry too, and I haven't read "Mom, Jason's Breathing on Me", but I read "The Secret of Parenting" where he touched on the same thing. I just don't know if I could do this, though, mostly because my sis beat the living crap out of me on a regular basis and my parents were very hands-off. There was a lot of anger modeled in my family, though, but I still don't know. Completely staying out of it just scares me to death. Of course, my kids are really too young to do that right now anyway.


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

I wouldn't want to take a "hands off" approach with siblings. I feel like it is my role to help them find tools of communication, tools for relationships. I don't see the choices as take sides or hands off. For us, what works is to validate, reflect back to each other and look for solutions that work for everyone. Because this is something we do daily, they have just gotten better and better at it.

My guess is that there is a underlying need or concern that needs to be heard and vented so that dd can move on. I know my older dd has to get out the tough feelings she is having before she can move on to more constructive actions.

Anna


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Oh, gosh. *Nobody* has suggested a 'hands off' approach. That would be neglect. Again, there is a huge difference between GD and doing nothing.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ambdkf*
I wouldn't want to take a "hands off" approach with siblings. I feel like it is my role to help them find tools of communication, tools for relationships. I don't see the choices as take sides or hands off. For us, what works is to validate, reflect back to each other and look for solutions that work for everyone. Because this is something we do daily, they have just gotten better and better at it.

My guess is that there is a underlying need or concern that needs to be heard and vented so that dd can move on. I know my older dd has to get out the tough feelings she is having before she can move on to more constructive actions.

Anna

That approach did not work for us at all. It sounded wonderful in theoty but not in practice. My dd's are 12, 10 and 9 and they have done an amazing job of figuring it out on their own. My "communication skill" building always ended up with someone thinking I was taking someone else's side.

My point is that this is a different approach to try. For my family and for many of my friend's family's its been the right approach.

A "hands off' approach does not mean you let one beat the other up. Its just that you don't put blame on one or the other "The two of you cut that out" works just as well to protect a sibling but does not build the long term resentments of "Maya stop hitting Eillie right now" .


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
Oh, gosh. *Nobody* has suggested a 'hands off' approach. That would be neglect. Again, there is a huge difference between GD and doing nothing.


Sorry if I misunderstood! Here are the statements I saw

>>The Anthony Wolf book believes in a VERY hands off approach to sibling relationships. NO you getting involved asking DD 1 how she thinks she is making DD 2 feel. No worrying when DD 1 is "mean" to DD 2.

The basics is to let them work out their difference themselves.<<

I just wanted to caution against that from my own experience. I didn't quote directly, because I didn't want to alienate anyone. Many people do take a hands off, 'let them work it out' approach and I just wanted put another plug for being more vs less involved.

Again, sorry if I upset anyone.

Anna


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
That approach did not work for us at all. It sounded wonderful in theoty but not in practice. My dd's are 12, 10 and 9 and they have done an amazing job of figuring it out on their own. My "communication skill" building always ended up with someone thinking I was taking someone else's side.

My point is that this is a different approach to try. For my family and for many of my friend's family's its been the right approach.

A "hands off' approach does not mean you let one beat the other up. Its just that you don't put blame on one or the other "The two of you cut that out" works just as well to protect a sibling but does not build the long term resentments of "Maya stop hitting Eillie right now" .


Maybe this is just semantics, but I would not consider your description above 'hands off', as hands- off implies to me one does nothing, and clearly, you were doing something. Well, at least it's clear to me you were.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ambdkf*
Sorry if I misunderstood! Here are the statements I saw

>>The Anthony Wolf book believes in a VERY hands off approach to sibling relationships. NO you getting involved asking DD 1 how she thinks she is making DD 2 feel. No worrying when DD 1 is "mean" to DD 2.

The basics is to let them work out their difference themselves.<<

I just wanted to caution against that from my own experience. I didn't quote directly, because I didn't want to alienate anyone. Many people do take a hands off, 'let them work it out' approach and I just wanted put another plug for being more vs less involved.

Again, sorry if I upset anyone.

Anna

I'm not upset. I don't consider the above description as hands-off. I don't think that's the correct description for what the suggestion is.

I thought the suggestions were very good, and not at all 'hands off". Of course, i may have a totally different idea of what ''hands off' means.


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
Maybe this is just semantics, but I would not consider your description above 'hands off', as hands- off implies to me one does nothing, and clearly, you were doing something. Well, at least it's clear to me you were.









I agree, I think we are talking about the same thing, just using different words. Hands off just scares me









Anna


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

It seems to me the suggestions are all about being involved (I don't see it as more vs less), but being involved in ways that help rather than hurt the children involved.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ambdkf*
I agree, I think we are talking about the same thing, just using different words. Hands off just scares me









Anna

I agree.









We're talking about how to be effective. If one thing is not working, it's time for a new approach.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I agree that taking sides is not beneficial. But I don't believe that just saying 'stop' is helping to nurture more effective communication tools of conflict resolution either. I really prefer a more 'hands on' approach of the Non-violent Communication variety. See www.CNVC.org for many more examples. But basically the NVC process entails four steps:

1. Making an observation
2. Stating your feelings
3. Clarifying your needs
4. Making a request

As we facilitate our children to have more self-awareness by directing them to listening to their feelings and their bodies, and helping them to identify their *needs*, they can make more specific and agreeable requests that are constructive, rather than relying on physical or harsh means of meeting their underlying needs. For example, if I heard our son and a friend 'squabling', I would ask 'what is happening?' and seek eaches' observations. Not in a referee position, more in a facilitator and advocate for both. I would attempt to restate both children's apparent feelings and seek clarification for everyone's understanding (more importantly each child is provided the opportunity to hear the other's pov); and I would help to clarify the needs of each and seek clarification that each child's needs are communicated accurately; and then I would seek their suggestions on how to resolve the *needs* of both, in a mutually agreeable manner.

Frankly, I don't expect children to know how to do this in the heat of their emotions without facilitation. I barely can rationally resolve conflicts at times myself, when I am emotionally heated. These tools of conflict resolution are THE MOST IMPORTANT life skills that I believe that I am helping to nurture in our family. I am learning them at the same time. They certainly were not utilized or modelled in my family of origin. When each member of a conflict Trusts that their "side" (NEED) is important, sought, heard and validated, then they can move toward seeking, hearing, and validating other's needs.

"Stop!" doesn't move anyone past the behavior to the underlying needs. But the behavior is only a *message*, an outward manifestation of unmet needs. I do agree that the conflict needs to stop everyone in their tracks, me included as their communication advocate. And as the children see conflict resolution steps modelled, they can carry these skills to help resolve any conflict in life. But, I don't expect them to learn the skills from each other, or alone.

Pat


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
I thought the suggestions were very good, and not at all 'hands off". Of course, i may have a totally different idea of what ''hands off' means.

I'm sorry, it was me that used the term "hands off" and started this whole confusion! I was actually referring to my parent, who just ignored our fighting most of the time unless it was bothering THEM. For example, if we were hitting each other and screaming at each other in the car we got in trouble, but if we were quietly cursing, pinching and scratching each other they didn't care. So now I see how Anthony Wolf's approach is different. Thanks!


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
But, I don't expect them to learn the skills from each other, or alone.



In our family though this is indeed how my three girls have learned these skills. It's really kind of amazing how effective having to work it out themselves has been!


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
In our family though this is indeed how my three girls have learned these skills. It's really kind of amazing how effective having to work it out themselves has been!

I think it probably depends on the nature of the conflict. My 16 and 13 yr olds do work out issues somethimes without my input, but sometimes they come to their dad or me for assistance. Often in the form of "She is hogging the computer again and 'forgetting' the deal"!!









A 4 year old impulsively hurting a toddler needs a parent's involvement.

If my 16 yr old where on my 6 yr old's case (which isn't an issue here), I'd step in, as the 6 yr old cannot be assumed to have the resources available that a 16 yr old has. It's an unfair advantage...or disadvantage... depending on whether your 6 yr old is strong personality and the 16 yr old is patient beyond belief.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *UUMom*
I think it probably depends on the nature of the conflict. My 16 and 13 yr olds do work out issues somethimes without my input, but sometimes they come to their dad or me for assistance. Often in the form of "She is hogging the computer again and 'forgetting' the deal"!!









A 4 year old impulsively hurting a toddler needs a parent's involvement.

If my 16 yr old where on my 6 yr old's case (which isn't an issue here), I'd step in, as the 6 yr old cannot be assumed to have the resources available that a 16 yr old has. It's an unfair advantage...or disadvantage... depending on whether your 6 yr old is strong personality and the 16 yr old is patient beyond belief.










Mine are close in age so that latter thing is not an issue.

But I do not get involved with who is hogging the computer. They have to work it out themselves. And when they know we won't get involved, they do!


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
Mine are close in age so that latter thing is not an issue.

But I do not get involved with who is hogging the computer. They have to work it out themselves. And when they know we won't get involved, they do!

When did you start with this? I mean, at what age?


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
Mine are close in age so that latter thing is not an issue.

But I do not get involved with who is hogging the computer. They have to work it out themselves. And when they know we won't get involved, they do!


I think that's fine as long as there is not an imbalance of power.


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
When did you start with this? I mean, at what age?


Well, I hit upon these methods when my youngest was around 4. So the other two would have been 5 and 7.

Before that I was doing alot of "Siblings without Rivalry" and it just was NOT working for us. My trying to provide "problem solving strategies" sounded so wonderful. But it just never worked out that way. Instead one would feel that I had (somehow, someway) really taken the side of another and resentments began to build.

As soon as I stayed out of it by which I mean letting them work things out by themselves and only interceded by telling them all to cut it out.

For example, if they were all fighting about using the computer in our family room I might say "I do not want to hear the three of you screaming, if you want to scream at each other go do it upstairs with the door closed, its too annoying to me. No one is using the computer while I have to hear all this yelling"

They would then look at each other (none really wanting to go upstairs) and kind of work it out. Skylar might say "OK Maya you can work on the computer for 1/2 an hour, but then you better let me use it!" And then Ellie might say "Well I want to use it too!" And Skylar might say "Well you can when we go to tennis lessons" And Ellie might get off a disgusted "FINE!"

Now is this all "lovey-dovey" and sweetness and light? No, but it is real kids working out their issues. It's about real life negotiations and they do it just fine when I stay out of it.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
Well, I hit upon these methods when my youngest was around 4. So the other two would have been 5 and 7.

Okay, this is good to know. Maybe I'll try a modified version of this, though they're still too young to really let them go at it.. I've noticed I'm blaming my dd A LOT for the conflict between her and the baby, but I am going to try to be more neutral. It's hard because it IS her causing it, but maybe if I treat it differently some of it will go away. I've been reflecting feelings like mad, but it's not making a dent. The faster he gets, the more possessive she gets. I'm just glad he's such a big baby!

So you never felt like the little one was being taken advantage of?


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
So you never felt like the little one was being taken advantage of?


This is where I found Anthony Wolf's advice to be the most helpful. His idea is that yes maybe the little one is a little taken advantage of but

1) Over time, the little one learns how to deal with it very effectively. I REALLY found this to be true. Moreover, because she has to deal with two older sisters I found my youngest to be the best at negotiating and problem solving with friends. Her teacher told me she was the one child in Kindergarten who could get along with everyone.

2) The older ones are LESS likely to try to take advantage of the little ones when they don't think "that baby, she always has mom on her side"


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Wow, I was off-line over the weekend and I am thrilled to see all these replies. I need to think this through.

I am sure I need to change something, because my dd1 is no doubt developing an incredible resentment towards her little sis. A more hands-off approach might indeed work for us, because dd2 is a very good negotiator, extremely well-liked by her peers, yet not one to let other kids take advantage of her... Yet I don't know...

I looked at the Anthony Wolf book on Amazon, and it lets you read a fair amount. It is certainly very different from what I am doing right now. I may be rushing into conclusion without reading the whole book and I plan to read it, but I kind of have a problem with his idea of separating the children, sending them to different rooms? As a matter of fact, it is rare that we are in separate rooms, unless I am doing something neither of the kids is interested in...but most of the time I try keeping them with me... I started that when they were small, because dd1 would always attempt to hurt her then baby sister, so, I prevented aggression by being on the scene of the crime before it happened. It's clear now I should encourage them play with one another more, but I find it difficult to disengage and separate the two of them without this being interpreted as a "time out" - I don't want to do T/O...I tried that when dd1 was little and it was A NIGHTMARE! Can you perhaps explain what you did when they were little in this regard, Maya?

Thanks everyone for all your suggestions. Your replies made me think a lot, especially:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
Such as 'wow, you are so fast, would you get me a glass of water too?' Thanks. 'We are so lucky to have a bunch of friends coming to your birthday, we don't need to exclude anyone.' Intentionally turning the negative into a positive and modelling how to come out ahead together instead of win-lose that is being demonstrated at school. Model abundance and gratitude instead of focusing on the win-lose dynamic. The ole adage, show what to do ,instead of what not to do. And they will become more abled to do this at school too.

UUMom was saying also something similar IMO in terms of not making a big deal of little conflicts and not exaggerating the







on the little sis feeling.

Natensarah is certainly right also in saying that:

Quote:


Originally Posted by *natensarah*
You know, I tend to think that when you get responses like this it's because you're asking a question that they either obviously already know the answer to or are ashamed to answer. Like the pp said, telling you that her sister feels bad because of what she did is embarrassing. Maybe you could try more description. Just say what you observe and let her draw her own conclusions.

All these replies reinforce my feeling that I need to stop laying guilt trips on dd1, my weakest point in mothering...


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## morning glory (Dec 8, 2005)

This is sort of along a different line that what others have been saying (a lot of great stuff...I'm looking forward to using some of it) but what has helped in our house (two boys 3 and 1.5) is allowing DS1 to be a "helper" and just assuming he will do the right thing (really hard sometimes) like "here are two cookies, one for you, one for Blade" and assuming that he really will go into the other room and give his brother the cookie. And the funny thing is he DOES. Before I would give them each a cookie and DS1 would steal DS2's...when he gives them we don't have that problem. With the racing for the bottle of water I might say something like "okay, then help your brother get some water now". Its not always going to work because kids will be kids but I think it is a very powerful thing to expect the best from someone. I mean to just assume that they will do the right thing because you know they are good.

Hope that helps. You have a lot of great advice to go on here. And just remember...with kids "The good news is nothing lasts forever. The bad news is nothing lasts forever"

Casey


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gaialice*
I looked at the Anthony Wolf book on Amazon, and it lets you read a fair amount. It is certainly very different from what I am doing right now. I may be rushing into conclusion without reading the whole book and I plan to read it, but I kind of have a problem with his idea of separating the children, sending them to different rooms? As a matter of fact, it is rare that we are in separate rooms, unless I am doing something neither of the kids is interested in...but most of the time I try keeping them with me... I started that when they were small, because dd1 would always attempt to hurt her then baby sister, so, I prevented aggression by being on the scene of the crime before it happened. It's clear now I should encourage them play with one another more, but I find it difficult to disengage and separate the two of them without this being interpreted as a "time out" - I don't want to do T/O...I tried that when dd1 was little and it was A NIGHTMARE! Can you perhaps explain what you did when they were little in this regard, Maya?



Well it defintitely NOT an idea of a time out. First of all, seperation is not even necessary all of the time. Only when things are out of hand. And the idea is you can be anywhere you want, but not together if you are going to fight. There is no seperation from Mom, because you can go back and forth between the kids and they are both welcome to see you. By the age I was doing it at, no one was all that interested in being aound me all the time.









Before the little one is four or so, you may need for the seperation to be in the same room, but it can be one over by the couch and one on the rug. Or one at the table and one on the floor.

The idea is only that they are seperated from each other, not from you. And its not a punishment.

What often happens, so long as you make it clear that you are not BLAMING on or the other for the sepeartion, is that they will ask to play together. The answer is always FINE.

Moreover, once my youngest was around 5, I told them to just go where I couldn't hear them, if they wanted to fight. They never really wanted to go and this often by itself took care of things.


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

Maybe it comes down how people want things to work in their families. Having a close family is important to me and we foster open communication. Jan Fortune Wood talks about being our child's trusted advisor. This cannot happen if you send your children away when they have conflicts. I *want* my kids to come to me when they need help. I'm happy to be a part of finding solutions. I want to be a resource, if I show them as young children I'm not or don't want to be, then when they are teens they surely won't be coming to me. I also want to model that we can accept people even when they are expressing tough emotions. I would not want my dh to tell me I was 'annoying him' when I was upset, even if I was yelling. He could talk to me about it but just telling me to get out of his space would feel very discounting and it would distance us.

I hear that this is working for some and I'm glad they have found something they feel comfortable with. I'm just posting for those who haven't implemented this - to think through the possible long term implications - or the communication patterns that you would be setting up.


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## WuWei (Oct 16, 2005)

I knew we had this conversation recently. And it was in the Time Out/Time in Cuddle Corner thread. And I wrote:

Quote:

We don't send our son away from us when he is overwhelmed by his emotions. Nor do we expect him to 'learn to feel empowered dealing with his own sadness alone'. We choose to connect and support each other when we are experiencing negative emotions to the extent that one is *needing* that from another. We are interconnected, not independent members in our family. And we value each other's connectivity and support in times of joy, just being together and sadness. Negative emotions are not taboo or something to be taken out of view. Nor are they something that we feel need to be avoided.

As our child deems himself independent to handle his emotions alone, he is free to do so. As he feels a need to have my support and attention in facing his emotional experience (positive or negative), I am willing and able to meet this dependent need also. I am fully confident in his ability to become independent in his own way, in his own time without nudging or pushing him toward 'handling it alone'. Especially, I won't negate his perception of his experience and need when he is emotionally distressed.

"The empowerment I believe children develop when we give them responsibility to take control of the expression of their behavior" is the same "they need to learn to self-soothe" argument of CIO.
I absolutely don't agree with sending fighting children out of the room so that I couldn't hear it.









Pat


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ambdkf*
Maybe it comes down how people want things to work in their families. Having a close family is important to me and we foster open communication. Jan Fortune Wood talks about being our child's trusted advisor. This cannot happen if you send your children away when they have conflicts. I *want* my kids to come to me when they need help. I'm happy to be a part of finding solutions. I want to be a resource, if I show them as young children I'm not or don't want to be, then when they are teens they surely won't be coming to me. I also want to model that we can accept people even when they are expressing tough emotions. I would not want my dh to tell me I was 'annoying him' when I was upset, even if I was yelling. He could talk to me about it but just telling me to get out of his space would feel very discounting and it would distance us.

I hear that this is working for some and I'm glad they have found something they feel comfortable with. I'm just posting for those who haven't implemented this - to think through the possible long term implications - or the communication patterns that you would be setting up.

My point is that by being sent away from me, the girls have done a wonderful job of learning to communicate with EACH OTHER.

As I have said, while "modeling" and being involved in problem solving is wonderful, I have found it is not for us good in the context, and only in the context, of silbling relationships.

There is simply too much in the way, I have found for this to work well. I have a 12 y.o. and 10 y.ol and and 9 y.o. and they come to me with many of their problems. I am thrilled to be involved in their problem solving. BuT not with their siblings. This is a very, very, very unqiue relationship. Like no other in the world.

This is not a matter of telling an INDIVIDUAL child to be alone with his feelings. All of my children are welcome to share their feelings. We don't send people away because they are angry or upset. But I do send my children away from me (all together) when they need to work something out with each other. My presence, I have discovered plays too deeply into the natural rivalry all children have for their parents love and attention. Thus, it fails them miserably in learning how really to resolve a problem with their sibling. Instead they are busy (on some level even subconcious) of trying to figure out "well, if she directed her questions or suggestions to me first, is she siding with my baby sister over me??? Whose side is she REALLY on?)

They may of course have my attention any time they need it. For example, if DD 1 and DD 2 are fighting and I say "guys go upstairs and work it out" about 90 percent of the time they do becuae truthfully they know that this is what works best. And if one does not want to and feels she needs to talk to me about it, they are welcome to do so ALONE (I will also talk to the other one of them about it in private)

What I have found to be a poor idea in practice though, is to act a mediator or problem solver. This they have done a MAGNIFICANT job of on their own with each other.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *scubamama*
I knew we had this conversation recently. And it was in the Time Out/Time in Cuddle Corner thread. And I wrote:

I absolutely don't agree with sending fighting children out of the room so that I couldn't hear it.









Pat

First of all sending multiple children together away from you, has NOTHING to do with a time out. Its saying "you all have a relationship that needs to be worked out and I do not want to be involved with all of you in this relationship. Its yours not mine."

Its not telling a person that their feelings are invalid or must be hidden, like a time out is. RATHER, its saying "this realtionship needs to be worked out by you, with the others who are actually part of the relationship."

You may not feel its right for you, but please don't be shaking your head at us.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Maya, thanks for your suggestions and this clarification, too. I have to say that it is a fact that the key resource for which kids are fighting is the parent's attention. And it is also clear that what I have been doing so far - with all my best intentions - has had its good sides (dd2 very good negotiator, both of them very creative problem solvers) but also some bad sides (dd1 has A LOT of resentment towards her sister, and she does NOT look towards her for companionship). So something needs to change, because this bitter resentment is spoiling our time together.

As I said, I need to think this through but the idea of staying in the same room and just different places in the room is a good one. It is also true that by separating them I will teach them to value their time together ands each other as a companion more. I am still a bit uneasy as to how to model and teach negotiating skills... I will have to read this book and come up with a good solution for my family...

One last thing that comes to my mind before I post this is the most fantastic relationship I know of between siblings. The two girls, now in their thirties, have been more close together than I ever thought was possible. They went through SOO much ... illnesses and losses in the family and a lot more in their personal lives... and always always they have supported each other. They actually decided to share an apartment starting a few years after they had left their parent's place - from age 22 (I think) to very recently... And the voice of their mom is still in my ears... I must have been 10 or 12 ... she was saying "You are so LUCKY to have a sister. I was an only child. I DO NOT WANT TO HEAR the two of you fight. If you need to fight you will do so in your room, in a soft voice. " AND THEY DID!!!! I remember they were never allowed to fight in front of their mom. Never.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *morning glory*
With the racing for the bottle of water I might say something like "okay, then help your brother get some water now".

That is a good suggestion morning glory. Certainly, it is A LOT better than what I did at the time







(look at your sister... how is she feeling now... )
I need to make a change. No doubt I need to make a REAL change!


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gaialice*
Maya, thanks for your suggestions and this clarification, too. I have to say that it is a fact that the key resource for which kids are fighting is the parent's attention. And it is also clear that what I have been doing so far - with all my best intentions - has had its good sides (dd2 very good negotiator, both of them very creative problem solvers) but also some bad sides (dd1 has A LOT of resentment towards her sister, and she does NOT look towards her for companionship). So something needs to change, because this bitter resentment is spoiling our time together.

As I said, I need to think this through but the idea of staying in the same room and just different places in the room is a good one. It is also true that by separating them I will teach them to value their time together ands each other as a companion more. I am still a bit uneasy as to how to model and teach negotiating skills... I will have to read this book and come up with a good solution for my family...

One last thing that comes to my mind before I post this is the most fantastic relationship I know of between siblings. The two girls, now in their thirties, have been more close together than I ever thought was possible. They went through SOO much ... illnesses and losses in the family and a lot more in their personal lives... and always always they have supported each other. They actually decided to share an apartment starting a few years after they had left their parent's place - from age 22 (I think) to very recently... And the voice of their mom is still in my ears... I must have been 10 or 12 ... she was saying "You are so LUCKY to have a sister. I was an only child. I DO NOT WANT TO HEAR the two of you fight. If you need to fight you will do so in your room, in a soft voice. " AND THEY DID!!!! I remember they were never allowed to fight in front of their mom. Never.

Good luck to you. My girls really do love their time together.

I have found by staying away from their realtionship, by not trying to "teach" or 'model' or "help" them with their relationship, it improved DRASTICALLY.

In other areas of their lives and realtionships I do all of these things, but not here.

Like I said, IMHO, we have to accept that in some ways our children have a realtionship with each other that we are simply not a part of. G-d willing they will have, and want to have a realtionship, long after they have moved out of the house and we are gone.

By letting them be with these things and figuring out themselves how to negotiatie it, they will IME be much better off.

Does the little one sometimes, get walked over? Yes, but over time they learn how to stand up for themselves.

And when the older is not resenting the younger for always getting mom on her side, for always causing a discussion of "how does you sister feel" "what can you do to make your sister feel better", the older ones need to keep putting the little one in her place is in my experience, signficantly reduced.

Moreover, I have found that true feeling of guilt (in a good way, the kind we should feel when we are treating someone wrongly) is MUCH more likely to be there when its not a parent directing everything.

For example, last week my two oldest were doing each others hair and and the youngest wanted to be involved. The older two were not in the mood for that they said something like "NO, Ellie, go away, no one can do your crazy curly hair its so ugly!" She got in a "No you are ugly" but she was sad.

Ellie came to me crying. The truth is Ellie has a thing about her hair. If her sisters had called her eyes ugly or her nose, she would have gotten off her retort and would not have been bothered by it again...but like many of us with curly hair she has "hair issues." Anyway, I offered her hugs and sympathy.

But what I did NOT do was to go to the older two and go on about "You have hurt your sisters feelings. How can we make this right...







"

That night at dinner Ellie was down, at some point she burst into tears. What was wrong I asked "I have ugly hair!" and she ran from the table. At that point my oldest two looked at each other and were like...Uh,oh. They said that they wanted to go to her. They did. They all came back smiling. Ellie said her sisters were going to do her hair that weekend. And they did. They spent an hour and a half on Saturday blowing it straight. Ellie walked around all day like she was a princess. She sat on my 12 y.o.'s lap the whole day. Then at night they helped her wash her hair and use a special conditioner and learn how to make her curls "work" for her and not be so frizzy. She made them a card telling them that they were the BEST sisters in the world.

Now do you think that all would have happened if I had gotten involved. Maybe, but this is what I have found to be most effective.


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## lechepatito (May 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
By letting them be with these things and figuring out themselves how to negotiatie it, they will IME be much better off.

Does the little one sometimes, get walked over? Yes, but over time they learn how to stand up for themselves.

Maya, I've enjoyed reading your responses - lots of food for thought here. I'm curious if there's a point at which you would get involved with a sibling issue? I can see that depending on the children's personalities and the age difference, things might get out of hand every once in a while - in terms of one constantly overpowering the other, for example. How much monitoring (for lack of a better word) did you do in the beginning, when you first started this approach?


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lechepatito*
Maya, I've enjoyed reading your responses - lots of food for thought here. I'm curious if there's a point at which you would get involved with a sibling issue? I can see that depending on the children's personalities and the age difference, things might get out of hand every once in a while - in terms of one constantly overpowering the other, for example. How much monitoring (for lack of a better word) did you do in the beginning, when you first started this approach?


I never got involved in the sense of trying to mediate, that is to say talking to two or three of them together about what was going on and trying to come up with a solution for them

On occassion, I have spoken to one IN PRIVATE (a key thing) and either expressed sympathy ("I know its hard to be the littlest one, sometimes your sisters are hard on you, huh?) or understanding (I know that your little sisters can be annoying and that it is frustrating, but I appreciate how you tried to include her yesterday.)


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## lechepatito (May 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
I never got involved in the sense of trying to mediate, that is to say talking to two or three of them together about what was going on and trying to come up with a solution for them

On occassion, I have spoken to one IN PRIVATE (a key thing) and either expressed sympathy ("I know its hard to be the littlest one, sometimes your sisters are hard on you, huh?) or understanding (I know that your little sisters can be annoying and that it is frustrating, but I appreciate how you tried to include her yesterday.)

I'm actually thinking more of just staying tuned in - even though you're not participating in the conversation/negotiating - to see how it's all working out. You know, checking that there actually ARE negotiations, etc, even if you don't participate. Do you ever find yourself suggesting actions to your DDs in private? Can you think of a situation where you would intervene?

My kids are too little for this yet (4.5 yo and 13 mos), but I would like to start putting their relationship in their hands more as they get older, and I'm interested in how the mechanics of this approach have worked for you.


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## ambdkf (Nov 27, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maya44*
that is to say talking to two or three of them together about what was going on and trying to come up with a solution for them

Just to clarify I never "come up with solutions for" my kids. They do that on their own. I am just present when they request it, there are countless times when they work it out without my presence but there are rare occasions where they want me there and I'm happy to lend a calming presence to the situation.

Anna


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lechepatito*
I'm actually thinking more of just staying tuned in - even though you're not participating in the conversation/negotiating - to see how it's all working out. You know, checking that there actually ARE negotiations, etc, even if you don't participate. Do you ever find yourself suggesting actions to your DDs in private? Can you think of a situation where you would intervene?

My kids are too little for this yet (4.5 yo and 13 mos), but I would like to start putting their relationship in their hands more as they get older, and I'm interested in how the mechanics of this approach have worked for you.


I don't feel any need to check on them. Although I get to hear about things fairly natrurally.

I don't intervene because it has just not been necessary though it is tempting sometimes. But when I leave them alone, they end up working it out somehow.

I do realize I need to say that I did intervene when they were little to prevent TRUE harm. So if you are pushing your sister near the stairs you got a "Maya, stop that right now. You can not push your sister near the stairs. She could fall and really get hurt!" If the pushing was being done in the middle of the carpeted playroom it would be more like a "You two stop that" even though I knew darn well that it was Maya doing the pushing and Ellie being pushed. But I did not necessarily know what Ellie had done, if anything, to provoke the pushing so I was not going to be blaiming anyone.

If they just seemed to be in a mood where they could not get along PHYSICALLY when they were younger I would then seperate them. Like saying Ellie why don't you go work on your puzzle in the kitchen, I will be in in a minute to help you but call if you need me. And Maya, read two pages of your book and I will ask you some questions about it. I will be in the mudroom foldiing laundry if you get stuck on a word.


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## gaialice (Jan 4, 2005)

The more I think about it, the more I like your approach Maya! I don't know, recently, I was feeling like being a parent requires skills beyond my reach! Your ideas give the whole thing a more human proportion. Like I am required to do my job as a mom, including of course providing for everyone and comforting my kids and be available for them but I am not responsible for making my house a perfect place where everyone is happy. I think that in a way when that burden is off my back I feel more relaxed...


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## maya44 (Aug 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gaialice*
The more I think about it, the more I like your approach Maya! I don't know, recently, I was feeling like being a parent requires skills beyond my reach! Your ideas give the whole thing a more human proportion. Like I am required to do my job as a mom, including of course providing for everyone and comforting my kids and be available for them but I am not responsible for making my house a perfect place where everyone is happy. I think that in a way when that burden is off my back I feel more relaxed...


Well, one thing I will say is that I follow alot of the advice of Anthony Wolf in all areas of my parenting and he is a big believer in "What real human children do in real circumstances"

He will often talk about the "ideal" situation where the children come to the problem with their siblings and how the parents listen carefully to all sides and help their children problem solve to work out a wonderful mutually agreeable solution. And then he says "Um not really a very likely scenario with human children."

Now if you are able to do this ideal that is wonderful. But I have found him to be correct. With MY real children in OUR real situations it just did not happen. And even when it did, it seemed in the long run to be building resentments.


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## UUMom (Nov 14, 2002)

I think that sometimes parents talk too much and ask questions childrn have a difficult time answering. ie '*Why* did you do that?" etc. I think relaxing and not yammering on so much that you start sounding like the adults in the old Charlie Brown cartoons is often just the ticket.


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## Mizelenius (Mar 22, 2003)

Need to get to bed but want to respond to the idea of "I'm better" coming from school.

My DD (almost 4) has rarely attended classes. However (and she's not in any classes now) she has recently started demonstrating that being first, being better, being the BEST is so important to her. She likes to emphasize/discuss that she is better at X, Y, and Z. I have always been careful not to praise her or judge what she does (instead, I just get excited along with her) but still, the competitiveness is coming out. Now, it may come from watching Angelina Ballerina and/or the fact that she has a younger (8 month old) sister.

In any case, I would have blamed this whole thing on exposure to other children, but frankly, she is rarely around other children. So, it could be the Angelina Ballerina, newish sibling, an age thing, or something that I'm doing/saying without realizing it. I know, however, that it is NOT from other children or school.


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