# Beavers or Sparks:



## carfreemama (Jun 13, 2007)

I guess this is our current manifestation of "gender neutral parenting." Dd is 6 and would like to join Sparks. I have been hesitating for several reasons, but a big one is that I don't want dd to get into "gender separated" programs until she really starts ask for them, if she does. Then a friend told me Beavers accept girls and in her ds's pack there are 2 girls attending. I asked dd about it and she's very interested in attending Beavers.

Dd plays very well equally with boys and girls and that's something I want to preserve and encourage for as long as possible. She does like dressing up as a princess and having tea parties, but she is also very physically active and can more often be seen with the boys on the school playground. She has lots of favourite playmates who are boys. So I think Beavers would be a good fit.

My only concern is in the longer-term. I can see her wanting to stay with this for the duration, so what about later on? Will there be a time later when she wants to just be with the girls? Am I setting her up to make good friends now, only to have her lose interest or need to make a shift to Brownies/Girl Guides and not have the common history with the other girls? Should we try both?


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## colsxjack (Dec 9, 2009)

I would try the beavers. She seems interested, she already enjoys the types of activities and playing with boys.
She can continue on in beavers and scouts until she is an adult if she likes. There is not a time when they separate the girls out. I have a co-worker who met her husband as a teen in Scouts. They both then went on to become Scout leaders and led their own children's groups.

I think there will be ample opportunities in her life to join in on any segregated activities if she likes. There is no need to have her start into Brownies now. She may never want to do Brownies at all. There are other girl only activities.

Good luck.


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## Kuba'sMama (Oct 8, 2004)

Hi;
My husband is a Beaver leader and our son is a Beaver as well. We are currently also thinking about where our daughter will go next year. I'm not sure how it is where you live, but in our area the Beavers are much more involved (trips, events, etc) and the Sparks are just a one-evening kind of thing. I'm thinking of putting her in both.
My reasoning is the Beavers do very cool trips, camps etc, which the Sparks don't do. But the Sparks ARE a place for just girls and I do think that's important for girls (don't we women just like to be with each other sometimes, with no men around? I do). They're also more craft-focused, which my daughter loves. She's been kind of living in the shadow of her older brother and I think a club just for her might be a good idea. Plus we have an older friend who is a Spark and my daughter really digs the pink uniform! lol.


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## carfreemama (Jun 13, 2007)

Thanks for the responses. This is the kind of feedback I was hoping for. I'm glad to know there won't be a time where she'll be separated off. I have hopes that she'll be one of those kids who has close male friends all through her childhood and teen years. I agree that it's sometimes nice to have a "just girls" space; but from what I've seen so far, that's already all around her. Even at age 5, she has gone to a "girls only" birthday party and she didn't understand why at all. My MIL was horrified that we want to hire a male babysitter part time, even though we know him very well and she really likes him.







Gymnastics is already starting to split up gender-wise. She LOVES camping and I had heard that was a big thing in Beavers and not so much in Sparks. I don't want to make a big deal of it, I just really want to expose her to co-ed stuff and also non-traditional stuff for girls, for as long as she's interested. I don't think we can do both, realistically. She's already doing gymnastics on Monday night and I don't want to overload us too much. I think she'll really like Beavers. Unfortunately, it sounds like they end for the summer in May; but dd really wants to start NOW. Does anyone know if I can stay with her? It takes her a while to warm up before she's okay being left on her own. And I know she won't go on the camping trip without me, at this point.


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## JessieBird (Nov 21, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Kuba'sMama* 
Hi;
in our area the Beavers are much more involved (trips, events, etc) and the Sparks are just a one-evening kind of thing. the Beavers do very cool trips, camps etc, which the Sparks don't do.

This is how it is now where I live too. Sparks and Brownies are not at all what they were when I was a kid. It looks to me like a playdate with matching outfits now. I think it starts to get more deeply involved in outdoorsy stuff, environmental and community stewardship, survival skills, volunteerism, etc, at the older ages, Guides and Pathfinders. But it probably depends a lot on the adult volunteers in the area and I'm sure that there is as much variety in Spark guides as there are in Beaver leaders.

From what I know of it in my area, Beavers is still what it was thirty years ago, except that it's coed now.

And Beavers still wear the same old awesome uniforms. The new Sparks and Brownie uniforms look like flimsy pyjamas in comparison but I suppose that shouldn't matter in the grand scheme of things.


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## Cascadian (Jan 28, 2009)

I really don't see much wrong with gender separation for some activities. My DD is in Sparks and relishes her time there. Sure it's pink, girly and female-oriented...and the focus on self esteem and team building, etc. etc. are integral parts as well. IMO boys and girls do develop slightly differently, both physically and socially/emotionally, and I think that the point of gendered activities is to acknowledge and honor those differences without being blind to their existence or getting righteous about them. I don't think I'm perpetuating horrible stereotypes by her being in there.

Her school, martial arts class, ballet (!), gymnastics and many playdates are gender mixed.


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## Bena (Jan 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carfreemama* 

My only concern is in the longer-term. I can see her wanting to stay with this for the duration, so what about later on? Will there be a time later when she wants to just be with the girls? Am I setting her up to make good friends now, only to have her lose interest or need to make a shift to Brownies/Girl Guides and not have the common history with the other girls? Should we try both?

In our area, Scouts (which Beavers are part of) are now co-ed all the way up.
I'm not sure if this is the case everywhere though.

Also, don't forget that Scouting and Guiding are ran by volunteers, and as such, the activities the kids do vary alot from group to group. You may find that later on, with a different leader, the Guiding groups offer more of the kind of activities you're looking for.

Now for the completely superficial...I agree about the uniforms!!!


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## carfreemama (Jun 13, 2007)

I don't really have a problem with gender-separated activities, per se; or "pink and girly," for that matter. Dd indulges in plenty of that. What does concern me is how early the separation starts and the germination of the idea that boys and girls are somehow inherently supposed to do/like different things, or be apart from each other while doing essentially the same things. So far, I see dd attracted to a wide range of stereotypically male/female activities. She definitely identifies as a girl; in the sense that she makes sure I know all her stuffed animals are girls, for example. She can dress like a princess with the best of them. I'm certainly not opposed to Sparks and dd may well end up joining. But it's good to know there's an alternative to girl/boy-only groups. We'll be looking for these kinds of opportunities wherever we can find them, until and unless dd starts telling us she would prefer to be with just girls in some context. I've given her the option of Beavers or Sparks and she very much wants to try Beavers.

I guess I fall on the side of seeing gender as pretty fluid, so the co-ed thing appeals to me.

And yes, Bena, I know that's true. So much of it depends on the volunteers. I have other concerns I won't get into here, but generally we're pretty cautious about these types of groups for a variety of reasons. I've definitely heard around here that Beavers is more campy and Sparks is more crafty. I feel she gets more opportunity to craft than camp, so that plays a part for me too. Oh, and I'm happy to become a volunteer or leader if dd gets going in one of the groups.


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## Learning_Mum (Jan 5, 2007)

I'd just go for the one that I think my DD would enjoy more and not worry about if the group is co-ed or not.

Sounds to me like you think she'd enjoy Beavers the most, so I'd take her along and see if she has a good time.

Sometimes I think we can over-think things.


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