# Who controls childbirth — expectant moms or doctors?



## mommamisty (Jan 23, 2004)

This woman's story made me sick to my stomach







.
A few things she says rubbed me the wrong way, but interesting read.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38129344...lth-pregnancy/


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## Laurski (Mar 13, 2010)

Just...wow. I can't believe the behavior of the staff at the hospital (especially the last doctor who broke her water). Very disturbing story.


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## Baby~Braatens~Mama (Apr 21, 2010)

Wow! What a powerfull and disturbing story. I can't even imagine... Can you sue a doctor for malpractice for the things he did? I understand why it was so hard for her to come to grips with the natural mothers approach to childbirth. Most people are told, their entire lives, not to question authority, and doctors are about as officially authoritative as our society gets. They are the ones who make us better and keep us safe, right?







I can't believe how this story affected me. I am feeling a little sick and terribly disgusted. It is so unfortunate that stories like hers exist, and that for so many years women were told this is the way things were done. (not exactly like this, but my bp's mother can tell some horrible birth stories!)


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## Laurski (Mar 13, 2010)

BBM: Your point about suing the doctor's an interesting one. I was just on the phone with DH, who is a lawyer, telling him about the story, and he also mentioned that the doctor's actions might make him liable for legal repercussions...


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Depressing story, but maybe since she is stopping her preconceived notions of how us hippie-dippies do it, she might get her VBAC.

Goes to show that just showing up at the hospital, figuring birth just happens, is NOT a good idea, nor is blindly trusting any doctor.

So my answer is doctors control birth in the hospital, but women are responsible for birth everywhere. A good birth is rarely handed to you.


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## Kelly1101 (Oct 9, 2008)

Haven't read the link, but the thread title made me smile:

"Who controls childbirth - expectant moms or doctors?"

Neither, although both would like to. I think the only person in control of childbirth is the baby.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

This article has made me angrier and angrier all morning.

Angry at the medical system, for making it impossible for a woman to trust that her doctor will do right by her.

Angry at the author/mom, for being so dismissive of us crazy hippies with our prepared approach to birth. So angry at her attitude and that of her new doctor: "Women who have a birth plan or do Bradley always end up with a c-section b/c they're uptight." Uhhh... right....


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## MaerynPearl (Jun 21, 2008)

Thats not a normal hospital birth at all in my eyes...

Ive had two hospital births and neither of them involved stupid decisions despite them being informed of possible side effects (with DD I told them when admitted that I cannot have an IV due to anxiety about it... I was never even offered one after that) or them making decisions on my behalf without asking me (even my induction with DS, they explained to me what they were going to do and why... and in the middle of the night they woke me up to put an oxygen mask on me... explaining to the very tired laboring mother what it was and why and that it was not actually something to worry about.)


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## RedOakMomma (Sep 30, 2004)

Huh.

I guess mostly, it seems to me a very poorly-written article. The author is obviously still processing her ideas, and maybe that's the point, but she goes back and forth between a respectful discussion of NCB and ridiculing, doubting comments about it all. She still doesn't seem like she's read a whole lot, and instead is reacting to very specific comments or ideas that seem pretty unrelated to each other or to a typical approach to NCB.

And the Dr. Gregory character is...just...







. Seriously. It makes me so sad when characters like that are held up as a representative of the hospital/ob model of care. My hospital births were nothing like what Dr. Gregory or the author described...and the idea that preparation (beyond a hospital course) or a birth plan will somehow make it more likely for you to get a c-section is laughable.

My birth plan was so respected at both of my births, it makes me proud to say I had a hospital birth. I LOVED it. I loved my OB and the nurses for advocating for me, for respecting me, and for respecting our wishes as a couple. It was an incredibly warm atmosphere. Not once have I ever been given the impression that the doctors or nurses view birth plans as the realm of anxiety-ridden, control-freak mothers, nor do I think anyone is under the illusion that a birth plan is anything more than a birth wish, should birth go as births normally do.

The author, unfortunately, seems to be one of those people that is deliberately uneducated about childbirth. She admits as much for her first birth, and based on how she discusses some of her new "knowledge" of NCB and homebirth, my guess is that she still hasn't cracked the spine of many books about birth or natural birth. When you're deliberately uneducated, what do you expect? That a natural birth, free of interventions, will just be handed to you? Sorry, lady, that's not how it works. Not with midwives or homebirths, either. Especially not with OBs, or any health care provider, you don't trust or really know all that well.

Do the work. Read up. Just because, in the end, birth is unpredictable, doesn't mean that preparation is useless. Preparation does not guarantee an easy birth, and goodness knows you can be educated/prepared and still have a traumatic birth...but just because the worst case scenario can happen to the prepared does not mean it gives everyone the excuse to be unprepared. And sheesh...just because you can find a hospital, somewhere, with a Byzantine approach to midwives and Bradley methods....and because you can find an OB that thinks birth plans are crap...that does not mean it excuses you from educating yourself, from preparing, and from learning about what your body needs and does during labor and birth.

She seems determined to be the victim, to find every excuse out there (based on stereotypes of doulas, homebirths, and mean OBs) that says she was justified in not educating herself, having a birth plan, hiring a doula, or doing a homebirth.

PUH-LEEZE.

If I was injured in car accident, but hadn't prepared myself by say...buckling my seatbelt, having safe brakes, or practicing defensive driving....even if I'd been "victimized" by getting hit by a bad driver. Aren't the extent of my injuries, to some extent, my own fault? So no matter if I can go out and find some quack that says seatbelts can really kill you, or safe brakes are over-rated, or people who practice defensive driving are really just anxious control-freaks who end up getting in more crashes...no matter how I try to justify my own bad choices, my own stupidity, the reality is my bad choices led to my injuries.


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## CoopersMommy0308 (May 12, 2008)

I had a doula, took out of hospital CBE classes, had a birth plan and a CNM and had a horribly traumatic birth with my son. The doctor came in just to see how things were going and did the exact same thing to me that he did to her "Well just let me check you." he then stripped my membranes, broke my water, AND inserted IFM all in one fell swoop. WITH me and my husband yelling NO.

I'm having a homebirth this time.







Can't wait!


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## treeoflife3 (Nov 14, 2008)

My natural birth wasn't handed to me. I had to work for it. I wasn't a control freak or over anxious when I discussed all my wants and desires with my midwife, I always felt I was raising my chances for the best outcome because there were no doubts with anyone about what I wanted and what I was comfortable with. I knew the midwives and what they believed and so I was able to trust that they could make decisions if I couldn't (like when I hemorrhaged and they needed to act swiftly.)

I'm glad I didn't just walk into a hospital assuming I'd figure it out as I go. Birth is natural and women have done it since forever, but there is still a rhythm to learn and know, still odd but normal things that can happen sometimes and not all the time, and still options that can make the experience better or worse. I can't imagine doing ANYTHING without even a little bit of research, especially where my child is concerned.


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## ~Katie~ (Mar 18, 2007)

Hi folks







I've returned the thread and I'd like to leave it open so please avoid posting or quoting UA violations. Thanks for your understanding.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *RedOakMomma* 
Huh.

I guess mostly, it seems to me a very poorly-written article. The author is obviously still processing her ideas, and maybe that's the point, but she goes back and forth between a respectful discussion of NCB and ridiculing, doubting comments about it all. She still doesn't seem like she's read a whole lot, and instead is reacting to very specific comments or ideas that seem pretty unrelated to each other or to a typical approach to NCB.

And the Dr. Gregory character is...just...







. Seriously. It makes me so sad when characters like that are held up as a representative of the hospital/ob model of care. My hospital births were nothing like what Dr. Gregory or the author described...and the idea that preparation (beyond a hospital course) or a birth plan will somehow make it more likely for you to get a c-section is laughable.

My birth plan was so respected at both of my births, it makes me proud to say I had a hospital birth. I LOVED it. I loved my OB and the nurses for advocating for me, for respecting me, and for respecting our wishes as a couple. It was an incredibly warm atmosphere. Not once have I ever been given the impression that the doctors or nurses view birth plans as the realm of anxiety-ridden, control-freak mothers, nor do I think anyone is under the illusion that a birth plan is anything more than a birth wish, should birth go as births normally do.

The author, unfortunately, seem to be one of those people that is deliberately uneducated about childbirth. She admits as much for her first birth, and based on how she discusses some of her new "knowledge" of NCB and homebirth, my guess is that she still hasn't cracked the spine of many books about birth or natural birth. When you're deliberately uneducated, what do you expect? That a natural birth, free of interventions, will just be handed to you? Sorry, lady, that's not how it works. Not with midwives or homebirths, either. Especially not with OBs, or any health care provider, you don't trust or really know all that well.

Do the work. Read up. Just because, in the end, birth is unpredictable, doesn't mean that preparation is useless. Preparation does not guarantee an easy birth, and goodness knows you can be educated/prepared and still have a traumatic birth...but just because the worst case scenario can happen to the prepared does not mean it gives everyone the excuse to be unprepared. And sheesh...just because you can find a hospital, somwhere, with a Byzantine approach to midwives and Bradley methods....and because you can find an OB that thinks birth plans are crap...that does not mean it excuses you from educating yourself, from preparing, and from learning about what your body needs and does during labor and birth.

She seems determined to be the victim, to find every excuse out there (based on stereotypes of doulas, homebirths, and mean OBs) that says she was justified in not educating herself, having a birth plan, hiring a doula, or doing a homebirth.

PUH-LEEZE.

If I was injured in car accident, but hadn't prepared myself by say...buckling my seatbelt, having safe brakes, or practicing defensive driving....even if I'd been "victimized" by getting hit by a bad driver. Aren't the extent of my injuries, to some extent, my own fault? So no matter if I can go out and find some quack that says seatbelts can really kill you, or safe brakes are over-rated, or people who practice defensive driving are really just anxious control-freaks who end up getting in more crashes...no matter how I try to justify my own bad choices, my own stupidity, the reality is my bad choices led to my injuries.

Amen. Again.


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## Katielady (Nov 3, 2006)

It bugs me when pieces like this are referred to as "articles." An article is fact-based. This is a personal essay. I think the distinction is important, because an article is something a person can refer to and source for information. There's not a lot of "info" to be found in this essay, just opinions (many of which are second and third hand). I don't see why it's causing such a stir on the net. Who cares what this one rather angry woman thinks?

I mean, I guess it's received some press, but my point is that it's not really press-worthy. It reminds me of that article in the Atlantic a year or so ago by some woman who hated breastfeeding. Opinion masked as fact and presented in a sensationalist package with an eye-catching headline. Meh.

ETA: oops, I saw this in new posts and didn't realize it's in a DDC. sorry! hope i'm not intruding.


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## Marilyn82 (Jan 26, 2005)

Eh, I tend to think we need to cut mama a break. I can understand being aggravated by some of her statements, but being wrong about the NCB community and not having done as much reading/educating/homework or whatever, does not mean she deserved to suffer the kind of dehumanizing/traumatizing treatment she received. Not saying that anyone here is saying she deserved it or anything...just making the point that regardless of her views or level of understanding/acceptance...it's incredibly sad that she ended up with such extreme mistreatment.

I also tend to think that the more "mainstream" mamas don't want to seem overly "crunchy" because they are afraid their thoughts will be discredited. She probably feels like she has to have those disclaimers out there to be more credible....silly.

It's true though, people find out I am having a homebirth and stop listening to anything I have to say about parenting/pregnancy etc because I must be a "crazy hippie" lol


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## Baby~Braatens~Mama (Apr 21, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marilyn82* 
Eh, I tend to think we need to cut mama a break. I can understand being aggravated by some of her statements, but being wrong about the NCB community and not having done as much reading/educating/homework or whatever, does not mean she deserved to suffer the kind of dehumanizing/traumatizing treatment she received. Not saying that anyone here is saying she deserved it or anything...just making the point that regardless of her views or level of understanding/acceptance...it's incredibly sad that she ended up with such extreme mistreatment.

I also tend to think that the more "mainstream" mamas don't want to seem overly "crunchy" because they are afraid their thoughts will be discredited. She probably feels like she has to have those disclaimers out there to be more credible....silly.









Exactly. And it breaks my heart.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marilyn82* 
Eh, I tend to think we need to cut mama a break. I can understand being aggravated by some of her statements, but being wrong about the NCB community and not having done as much reading/educating/homework or whatever, does not mean she deserved to suffer the kind of dehumanizing/traumatizing treatment she received. Not saying that anyone here is saying she deserved it or anything...just making the point that regardless of her views or level of understanding/acceptance...it's incredibly sad that she ended up with such extreme mistreatment.


No, she didn't "deserve" such a bad doctor, but her willful ignorance and dismissal of any birth preparation or education directly led to her experience. I agree with ROM that she is acting like a victim, and if she chose to keep her head in the sand, how much of a victim can she be? If you expect other people to do your work for you, then you are volunteering to be at the mercy of others.

It is really sad that people can't trust their doctors - really sad, and it makes me crazy angry, enough to chuck it all and go to med school - but that means that we have even more of a responsibility as pregnant women to take care of ourselves. Where else in life is it a good idea to just show up with no prep, throw yourself on the mercy of others, and hope for the best? When applying for jobs? When taking a test in school? Women need to wake up to the fact that it is not patchouli vs. modernity and they need to stop falsely framing the debate that way. I absolutely do not wear patchouli, nor burn sage, nor wear flowy skirts, nor chant, nor anything in the stereotype. Yet I do take responsibility for my own health, and to do so is not being a weird hippie - it is being a responsible adult. This does not mean you have to have a OOH birth - but it does mean that you learn about birth and your options and not dismiss it all as being a control freak or a crazy hippie.


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

I think it's interesting, and sad, that what she takes away from it is this:

Quote:

By now, one movie, two books, four doulas and approximately 15 mothers had told me that my traumatic birth was my fault, the problems all stemming from my not believing in my body. But what if my body wasn't meant to do this?








That's not what I get from it. I get that she has partial 'blame' _because she didn't get educated._ She could have learned that so much of what is done in US hospitals is not evidence-based practice. Simply reading the brief chapter on AROM in "The Thinking Woman's Guide" would have shown her it's rarely, if ever, a good idea. Then maybe she would have discussed it with her OB. Then maybe she would have seen he either thinks it IS good, or shown that doesn't give a hoot what mamas think, he'll do as he pleases. (Granted, he could have deceived her on either counts, but I doubt it.)

The fact that she didn't bother to learn & blindly trusted is, I think, where she went wrong. Of course not that that at all excuses the doc's behavior!!! But, I think she 'went wrong' on that count. It is NOT about the "not trusting your body" business. It's the lack of education.

As DH & I both often say, people spend more time researching, learning about, & planning their nursery decor & their stroller purchase than birth! Call me insensitive & a snob, but I think that's silly & wrong.

Another quote from the article:

Quote:

Would we ever tell someone whose liver has failed that it was because she didn't believe in it?
She just doesn't get it. *Her body did not "fail" to birth her baby! The induction failed,* so the OB did a CS!!!!!! That's NOT a "failure" of her body! Yeah, it's no guarantee that she would have had a vaginal birth had the OB had a shred of respect for her autonomy & discharged her so she could go home, but still, ya never know. What really "went wrong" was that the induction failed so the OB did a CS. Her body did not "fail" --> _Induction_ failed. It's sad that she doesn't see that & doesn't understand the difference.









Quote:


Originally Posted by *RedOakMomma* 
Just because, in the end, birth is unpredictable, doesn't mean that preparation is useless. Preparation does not guarantee an easy birth, and goodness knows you can be educated/prepared and still have a traumatic birth...*but just because the worst case scenario can happen to the prepared does not mean it gives everyone the excuse to be unprepared.*

_emphasis mine_









Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
I absolutely do not wear patchouli, nor burn sage, nor wear flowy skirts, nor chant, nor anything in the stereotype. Yet I do take responsibility for my own health, and to do so is not being a weird hippie - it is being a responsible adult.











That all applies to me as well, BTW. I'm so 'mainstream' in a lot of ways that I even wear eyeliner, high heels & my DH drives a (OK, small) SUV! I guess we're "closet hippies."


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Yeah, I daw that, and even blogged about it.

Katielady, if all "articles" were fact based, that would be wonderful. What would you call most of the... _pieces_ that appear in tabloids? Even if there are facts in it, every newspaper article has a certain spin on it, and I have never, ever seen anything that is a 100 percent factual.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

I actually think it's a good personal essay. Although I agree that I am horrified at the hospital experience as even my very poor one was nothing like that.

Sure, some of her statements are a bit over the top but I agree with her core point which is that last time, her birth was traumatic. _This time_, she is looking for help - real, solid information and help - and instead she's getting a lot of the trust birth stuff from the NCB community that I personally find unhelpful.

I've personally experienced this myself and I find her experience rings true with me. So go her.

I don't think blaming her for her lack of preparedness around her first birth is right, and I also don't think it relates to her central point which is how do you find your way through a birthing experience after one has gone so badly.


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## louis (Sep 5, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 
Women need to wake up to the fact that it is not patchouli vs. modernity and they need to stop falsely framing the debate that way. I absolutely do not wear patchouli, nor burn sage, nor wear flowy skirts, nor chant, nor anything in the stereotype. Yet I do take responsibility for my own health, and to do so is not being a weird hippie - it is being a responsible adult. This does not mean you have to have a OOH birth - but it does mean that you learn about birth and your options and not dismiss it all as being a control freak or a crazy hippie.


These were my exact thoughts when I saw this thread yesterday.

I feel for this woman because she experienced something seriously traumatic, but it kills me, because she could have been informed. Or at the very least, be informed for the future, i.e. her impending child. I get the feeling from the essay that she is not really preparing herself for this next birth, she just knows she wants something better than last time. I am hopeful for her that acquiring a doula for this birth will benefit her in the end.


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## Ammaarah (May 21, 2005)

I thought it was really interesting, actually. I can relate in a lot of ways. I'm pregnant after a very hard birth, and I was not stupid. I didn't think I was in control then, and I don't think I am this time around either. It's like trying to be in control of a glacier. I'm not saying there's nothing a person can do to try to have a safe, good birth, but it's not always as easy as being educated. Hell, I know plenty of women who never read a thing about childbirth and had lovely births. It's not that simple.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ammaarah* 
I thought it was really interesting, actually. I can relate in a lot of ways. I'm pregnant after a very hard birth, and I was not stupid. I didn't think I was in control then, and I don't think I am this time around either. It's like trying to be in control of a glacier. I'm not saying there's nothing a person can do to try to have a safe, good birth, but it's not always as easy as being educated. Hell, I know plenty of women who never read a thing about childbirth and had lovely births. It's not that simple.


Right - even someone trained in martial arts can't physically get up after having an epidural, to prevent a c-sec, and who would expect their OB to break their waters after saying they were just doing a VE before allowing them to go home? That's 100 percent the OB's responsibility, fault, whatever you want to call it.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ammaarah* 
I thought it was really interesting, actually. I can relate in a lot of ways. I'm pregnant after a very hard birth, and I was not stupid. I didn't think I was in control then, and I don't think I am this time around either. It's like trying to be in control of a glacier. I'm not saying there's nothing a person can do to try to have a safe, good birth, but it's not always as easy as being educated. Hell, I know plenty of women who never read a thing about childbirth and had lovely births. It's not that simple.

No, being educated nor uneducated about childbirth guarantees no specific birth outcome - but being educated does help raise your chances of having a satisfying birth. No one ever claims that if you do x, y and z, you will be guaranteed an amazing birth, so please don't try to make it into that. No one is promised anything in birth - but educating yourself raises your chances of getting the birth you hope for. This woman didn't educate herself at all, dismissed the type of education that would have helped her recognize this care provider as unlikely to be supportive as "too hippie," and then is still failing to help herself this time around. She writes off VBAC as impossible b/c of the risk of rupture, even though this is patently false, and appears to be just sitting there hoping and wishing for this time to be different.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn*
This time, she is looking for help - real, solid information and help - and instead she's getting a lot of the trust birth stuff from the NCB community that I personally find unhelpful.

I don't think blaming her for her lack of preparedness around her first birth is right, and I also don't think it relates to her central point which is how do you find your way through a birthing experience after one has gone so badly.

She is not looking for information - if she were, would she quote that untruth about VBACs causing rupture? Or the part about how prepared women are uptight and definitely get c-sections?

And you really think that she didn't have a responsibility to educate herself or be prepared? Really? She doesn't appear to be doing anything to find her way through a bad birth except blame the hippies and the doctor and the nurse.


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## MyFillingQuiver (Sep 7, 2009)

Yeah, just lovely. THIS is exactly why we must be educated. I am 100% responsible for the crappy maternity care I received for children #1-4.

I grew up mainstream, didn't research, believed the almighty Dr's, and am STILL paying for THEIR choices-which were largely based on THEIR knowledge that I WAS IGNORANT to any other choice!

I don't blame the mother for malpractice issues, but I sure believe we are setting ourselves up for failure when we walk into an OB office/hospital, completely at the mercy of "whatever Doc thinks is best...the most important thing is a healthy baby". I believe that so much, that I am NOW taking control of my body and MY baby ENOUGH to have a homebirth. My last birth was a hospital birth more on my terms, but I STILL fail when confronted with paternalistic OB males...so it just isn't going to happen anymore.

I also agree it's not an "article" influenced by evidence and facts. It's a personal opinion piece-still just as valid to the author, but not to those seeking truth in information about birth/VBAC.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 

She is not looking for information - if she were, would she quote that untruth about VBACs causing rupture? Or the part about how prepared women are uptight and definitely get c-sections?

And you really think that she didn't have a responsibility to educate herself or be prepared? Really? She doesn't appear to be doing anything to find her way through a bad birth except blame the hippies and the doctor and the nurse.

I think interviewing four doulas and reading all the books she read qualifies as educating herself.

And although I think self-education is important, I don't think it is right or helpful to blame a woman for a bad birth. This is actually one of my biggest issues with the NCB community - when someone comes and expresses their truth, there is a LOT of armchair quarterbacking that basically comes down to:

*"If you only would have known/done/thought what *I* have, you wouldn't have had such a bad experience."* So, too bad for you missy. How is this helping or empowering women?

Even if that's true -- and I really don't see how that would have stopped this doctor from stripping her membranes and some of the other difficulties she had -- it is NOT HELPFUL. It is not helpful to other women and it is not helpful to her and it will not help her feel brave and strong enough to have a better experience next time.

It is exactly the same as someone saying they were unhappy with their care and someone pulling out all the old warhorse arguments about how great hospitals are.

Also, I don't personally believe women should have to research everything about birth to get good care in a hospital. It may currently be the reality. But it's a systemic, patriarchical issues. Blaming the woman at the bottom of the totem pole is just wrong, in my opinion.

And it really saddens me that this is still the response - woman-blaming.


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## Galatea (Jun 28, 2004)

I stand by my original point - where else in your life is it a good idea to walk blindly into a situation and expect others to watch out for your best interests? I have to manage my bank account - it is not the job of the bank or any merchant to make sure that I have enough money or am not overcharged for something. If prices matter to me, then I have to read the grocery circulars to get the best deal. I can't just walk into Kroger, shop, and then complain that Kroger didn't give me the best price. What her OB did, though not okay by any means, was pretty common for OB behavior and happens all the time - see the comments on the 2nd or 3rd page by the L&D nurse - and if she had educated herself at all on her options, including taking some influence from those crazy hippies - she would have been aware of that. Anyone who still has the idea that they will be attended by the doctor in Norman Rockwell's paintings, in any medical setting, is in for a painful awakening. This woman was presented with this info, and she chose to disregard it.

I get tired of having the same argument with you, GuildJenn, b/c you are coming from a very specifically awfully painful place, and any time this topic comes up, I feel like you want it to be that birth is totally, completely and in every way out of anyone's hands, and that there is no way anyone can influence or deal with it at all. Though I understand why you would want to feel like this, it is just not true. We, as adult human beings, have a responsibility to take care of ourselves the best we can, and to say so is not to say that this woman deserved punishment, but that she needs to own responsibility for her choices and their likely or potential outcomes. I also reject the idea that we can just float into birth blindly trusting our bodies - this is as stupid an idea as blindly trusting our doctors; they are flip sides of the same coin, and she, unfortunately, subscribed to both views.

I am not saying that if she had done x, y or z, that she would have been guaranteed a good birth - but I do maintain that it would have increased her chances. That is what I said earlier in this thread, and I am saying it again, and will say it in every other thread we clash on - self-knowledge and education about childbirth will raise your chances of having a satisfying birth, but it in no way guarantees it. Yet, as another poster said, just b/c we cannot be guaranteed a satisfying birth DOES NOT MEAN we should not try as best we can. Life is unpredictable, and bad things happen, and people will not always do right by us, but that does not mean that we can just throw our hands up and say "Whatever will be, will be." It means that we prepare ourselves, and take care of ourselves, and part of that is owning our emotions and doing the work before and after birth to be able to process whatever the outcome is.


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I think interviewing four doulas and reading all the books she read qualifies as educating herself

Well, you have a good point there, but I think she still doesn't seem to "get it." She seems to think her body failed at birth - rather than realizing that the _induction_ (the intervention) is what failed. A vital distinction, IMO.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
Even if that's true -- and I really don't see how that would have stopped this doctor from stripping her membranes and some of the other difficulties she had -- it is NOT HELPFUL. It is not helpful to other women and it is not helpful to her and it will not help her feel brave and strong enough to have a better experience next time.

Well, I agree with you in principle that woman-blaming is wrong & not a good solution. But I _disagree_ that it is "not helpful." The moral of the story is: DO NOT BLINDLY TRUST YOUR OB. Ask around, get lots of feedback, ask open-ended questions so you get a feel for how he values patient autonomy (or doesn't.)

This is the horribly reality of maternity 'care' in America today. So I disagree that it's "not helpful" to warn women. If I hadn't read "The Thinking Woman's Guide" I wouldn't have had a CLUE! I would have stayed with OBs at a seriously intervention-happy hospital and....









So, *I DO think warnings are helpful. Cuz I think warnings are warranted when it comes to American maternity care.*

Furthermore, I think the fact that you CAN "increase your chances" (a point which Galatea so eloquently elaborated on) could INCREASE a feeling of bravery!! If I was faced with 2 options:
1. You can't control birth, don't even bother trying (attempting via birth plan, etc. to do so just _increases_ the odds you'll have a CS)
or
2. While you can't _guarantee_ a great birth or healthy baby, there is still a lot you can do to improve your odds that you & baby will be healthy & your HCPs will treat you with respect, kindness & only recommend interventions that are truly in your best interest.

Well, honestly, facing the #2 situation would make me feel much more brave!


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## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

I read this as a personal narrative from a woman who has suffered a traumatic experience and is still in the process of trying to come to terms with it. I see her as having left behind her previous notions of what labor/birth is, without yet having arrived at a place of new clarity & confidence about a different way of thinking. I see her casting about for something that resonates with her. I could relate to some of what she wrote, and I found some of her conclusions surprising or puzzling or at least not what I would have concluded from the same information.

What I do appreciate is that she has articulated her thought process very clearly. She is showing us her personal journey with a complex experience. I am a strong advocate for women sharing their stories about birth and for each woman telling it like it is for her.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 
I _disagree_ that it is "not helpful." The moral of the story is: DO NOT BLINDLY TRUST YOUR OB. Ask around, get lots of feedback, ask open-ended questions so you get a feel for how he values patient autonomy (or doesn't.)

I personally am very uncomfortable moralizing from someone's personal narrative. Holy cow, I hope no one is reading any of my musings about my traumatic experience and using it as a "cautionary tale"!!!! At most, I hope someone has a frisson of recognition ("so I'm not the only one who thinks/feels that way") or of smug satisfaction ("thank goodness what happened to her didn't happen to me").

But I would consider it a great mis-use of my story to draw any conclusion about how to approach labor. My story is my story. Period. It's full of ambiguities and contradictions and perhaps even mis-information and wrong conclusions because it's based on my perspective & my interpretation of what I see, and I'm not perfect. I'm sharing it as a feeling being who's trying to make meaning, not someone who has great knowledge about how other people should make their decisions.

So that's the perspective I bring when I read someone else's personal narrative. I hope that the woman who wrote this piece isn't done with her journey. I hope she keeps asking questions of herself and of others, and I hope she moves to a place of confidence and clarity, wherever that falls for her.

I think the proper use of story sharing is to listen. Just listen.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Galatea* 

I get tired of having the same argument with you, GuildJenn, b/c you are coming from a very specifically awfully painful place, and any time this topic comes up, I feel like you want it to be that birth is totally, completely and in every way out of anyone's hands, and that there is no way anyone can influence or deal with it at all. Though I understand why you would want to feel like this, it is just not true. We, as adult human beings, have a responsibility to take care of ourselves the best we can, and to say so is not to say that this woman deserved punishment, but that she needs to own responsibility for her choices and their likely or potential outcomes. I also reject the idea that we can just float into birth blindly trusting our bodies - this is as stupid an idea as blindly trusting our doctors; they are flip sides of the same coin, and she, unfortunately, subscribed to both views.

That is such a misrepresentation of my views that I really don't think you've been reading very closely. I am completely in favour of people being informed. I just don't think the natural childbirth community does a very good job of informing women - and I thought she articulated pretty well why the books and info were not working for her this second time around.

I'm also tired of people taking other people's birth stories -- often off the 'net -- and blaming women over them, shutting down real understanding and compassion.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 
Well, I agree with you in principle that woman-blaming is wrong & not a good solution. But I _disagree_ that it is "not helpful." The moral of the story is: DO NOT BLINDLY TRUST YOUR OB. Ask around, get lots of feedback, ask open-ended questions so you get a feel for how he values patient autonomy (or doesn't.)

This is the horribly reality of maternity 'care' in America today. So I disagree that it's "not helpful" to warn women. If I hadn't read "The Thinking Woman's Guide" I wouldn't have had a CLUE! I would have stayed with OBs at a seriously intervention-happy hospital and....









So, *I DO think warnings are helpful. Cuz I think warnings are warranted when it comes to American maternity care.*

Furthermore, I think the fact that you CAN "increase your chances" (a point which Galatea so eloquently elaborated on) could INCREASE a feeling of bravery!! If I was faced with 2 options:
1. You can't control birth, don't even bother trying (attempting via birth plan, etc. to do so just _increases_ the odds you'll have a CS)
or
2. While you can't _guarantee_ a great birth or healthy baby, there is still a lot you can do to improve your odds that you & baby will be healthy & your HCPs will treat you with respect, kindness & only recommend interventions that are truly in your best interest.

Well, honestly, facing the #2 situation would make me feel much more brave!

Sure, but we don't know how much choice she really had or what her path was in choosing that OB. That's why I don't think we should moralize off a story. Think about it, yes. Attack the woman, no.

I also think her 'ignorance' is being misrepresented. She says she had high blood pressure. Not a lot of detail there. I agree with you that the induction failed and not her body and that she seems to be missing that.

But we don't know - because she doesn't get into it - what the deal was with the high blood pressure. She may well have looked into it and come up with pre-ecclampsia and all kinds of things and made an informed decision to be induced. She doesn't say what happens before she gets to the hospital. She says she asks about the drug, and that she's taking it instead of an epidural because she doesn't want dilation to slow down - that doesn't sound all that dreadfully uninformed to me either. She's not sticking her arms out and saying "do whatever."

When her blood pressure is lower, she makes the decision to go home. Again, it doesn't really sound to me like she's operating without thought or care. Yes, she admits that she didn't want to go wholesale into natural childbirth and that she didn't see the use in a birth plan. In hindsight that may not have been the best. But she took some classes; she was informed about some things. Also her attitude - "it can't be that hard" - isn't really that far off "trust your instincts."

I find it interesting that people here missed that she got _evidence_ from an (unpublished) study that a birth plan correlates to an increased risk of c-section. Again, not an unthinking approach to this question of anxiety.

So...I don't find there's a moral here really except that her OB was a UAV and that this woman is pretty eloquent about her struggles. Oh, and that out of 4 doulas she interviewed, only one failed to blame her.


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## caned & able (Dec 8, 2005)

Insurance companies and hospitals control childbirth.

Mothers live with the results.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *caned & able* 
Insurance companies and hospitals control childbirth.

Mothers live with the results.

No, not "childbirth" in general - childbirth in hospital. Insurance companies and hospitals definitely did not control my homebirth and UC.


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## Kelly1101 (Oct 9, 2008)

Interesting thread. My take is kind of-- yes, the original OB was absolutely positively over the line and wrong to break her water without consent, and I'd take action on something like that. I also agree with the PP that being informed/prepared does not make you automatically have a great and/or vaginal birth. You can improve your chances but the baby is going to have to come out in the way that he/she comes out regardless of all of your ideas and plans. That said, yeah-- if you're planning on giving birth, it might be to your advantage to, you know, READ about it just a little. Get an idea of what happens, what you'd like, what you wouldn't like, how the whole thing tends to go. Her failure to do that doesn't mean that's the reason she had a crappy experience (again, outrageous of the doctor to break her water like that), but it would have helped her for sure.


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CI Mama* 
I personally am very uncomfortable moralizing from someone's personal narrative. Holy cow, I hope no one is reading any of my musings about my traumatic experience and using it as a "cautionary tale"!!!!
<<snip>>
I think the proper use of story sharing is to listen. Just listen.

Good points. I totally get what you're saying. & you're right, it's not really fair or reasonable to take personal narrative, hold it up & say, "LOOK OUT! This could be you!"

I guess what I mean to say is this:
*Women need to be warned in America today that you cannot simply trust your OB!* Get educated, find out about "evidence-based care," try to make sure you're getting it (because it is not the "default" setting), and advocate for yourself!
For me personally, the book "Thinking Woman's Guide" drove it home for me. It STILL makes me furious that hospitals still do "nothing by mouth" & cEFM for all births. (including one of the best in the nation - Johns Hopkins - where I _was_ going to deliver before I got educated)

For me, reading the chapters in the book, the science behind it, it made perfect sense to me. When I saw the absolute chasm between science & practice, I knew I had to run screaming from Hopkins! Also, in the book "Born in the USA" he includes a chart of _actual evidence-based practice rates_ of things like induction, episiotomy, CS, etc. next to real rates. This was also frightening to me.

But I'm a left-brained, analytic type of person. Stats speak to me!







I actually think it's totally silly to take _individual narrative_ & use it in decision making regarding science -- So that includes medicine and fitness! Fitness is a science too - as I say, it's not like fashion! Someone's _opinion_ isn't really relevant (well, on most issues, that is.) It drives me batty that people will take fitness advice from people grossly unqualified to give it (& likewise, that people who are grossly unqualified _think_ that they should advise others.)

Anyway, but that's me.

I think, however, narrative could be useful for some people for whom stats aren't powerful. (& I think that's a lot of people.)

The points of this narrative that I think can be helpful are:
1. Sometimes OBs don't practice evidence-based care
2. Sometimes OBs don't honor informed consent
3. When this does happen, birth can go badly
4. KNOW THIS - know that you can't blindly trust your OB!
5. However, you CAN get educated & "optimize" your odds (so you might want to do so!)

& I'm defining "optimize" here as: "Make your odds the best that they can be." Again, as has been repeated, there are no guarantees! But you can improve your odds and make the odds the best they could possibly be. Hence = "optimize."

This is the "value" I see here in "moralizing" the story. I'd hate for women to read the story & just think, "Oh no, how awful, gee I hope that doesn't happen to me." Instead I want them to know *they can -and should- act to help prevent it from happening.*

Again, note, I say "_help_ prevent it" since you can't guarantee. You can't "prevent" you can only "help prevent." & again, I disagree, "Oh, she can't help the fact that the doc didn't listen to her." Well, true, but I'm willing to bed that whatever hospital she was at isn't recommended much in the NCB community. I could be wrong - it could be a fluke - it could have been a great "baby & mama friendly hospital" & he was just a random UAV. But I do doubt it. Again, she could have "optimized her odds" by getting more feedback. What I'm saying is - that sort of thing is _less likely_ to happen at the more NCB-friendly hospitals. So I'm going to guess that she was not in an NCB-friendly hopsital.

P.S. Sorry my posts are so long, but it's a sensitive issue & I'd rather err on the side of writing a mini-novel, but representing my thoughts clearly, rather than being incomplete.


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
Sure, but we don't know how much choice she really had or what her path was in choosing that OB. That's why I don't think we should moralize off a story. Think about it, yes. Attack the woman, no.

I dunno, of course we can't be certain without asking her the Q point-blank, but I think she was pretty clear about the fact that she did not do research prior to birthing. So I don't think it is a stretch for us to assume that means she also did not research that OB or research that hospital.

Again, I agree we shouldn't "attack" her. Regarding "moralizing" - I addressed that in my reply above.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
When her blood pressure is lower, she makes the decision to go home. Again, it doesn't really sound to me like she's operating without thought or care.

To be fair, the way it's written, the nurse suggested that to her. It really sounds to me like it wasn't something she thought of on her own. So I don't see that as evidence in her favor of being an informed consumer & not just going along with whatever doc says.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I find it interesting that people here missed that she got evidence from an (unpublished) study that a birth plan correlates to an increased risk of c-section. Again, not an unthinking approach to this question of anxiety.

I think someone on this thread already said that she's almost _looking for evidence_ that we natural birthers are crazy hippies (and she, therefore, still doesn't want to attempt to join our ranks.) I actually know a lot of hospitals and OBs _encourage_ birth plans. I would bet there are a lot more HCPs in favor of, or at least mostly neutral on the concept than there are HCPs who find them to be a bad thing. So the fact that she included that I think shows that she has already reached her conclusion (birth is uncontrollable & those who make attempts to try for a natural birth are silly) & simply looking for evidence to confirm her existing conclusion. That's not true thinking or analysis.

TRUE stats that would be relevant to the story are _satisfaction ratings_ of women birthing in hospitals vs. HB or FSBC or in hospitals with MWs vs. OBs. Or CS rates in Western Europe vs. here. Or CS rates for MWs in hospital vs. OB (obviously all for _low risk women_ so you're comparing "apples to apples."

It seems she is missing a great truth here - you WILL receive less intervention (including less risk of CS) with an HCP who practices evidence-based care. Heck, even if you don't even try too hard - just picking a good HCP & birth location improves your odds tremendously.

And you also CAN increase your odds of having an HCP who will treat you with respect & kindness, regardless of any needs for intervention. You just have to shop around.

*Again, you can increase your odds of a good experience, you just have to shop around.* I feel like this is a truth she still doesn't comprehend. & that's a big shame. And THAT is the truth I feel like women need to know.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 
I think someone on this thread already said that she's almost _looking for evidence_ that we natural birthers are crazy hippies (and she, therefore, still doesn't want to attempt to join our ranks.) I actually know a lot of hospitals and OBs _encourage_ birth plans. I would bet there are a lot more HCPs in favor of, or at least mostly neutral on the concept than there are HCPs who find them to be a bad thing. So the fact that she included that I think shows that she has already reached her conclusion (birth is uncontrollable & those who make attempts to try for a natural birth are silly) & simply looking for evidence to confirm her existing conclusion. That's not true thinking or analysis.

Well, we all read through our own filters. What I see (and freely admit my experience has coloured this) is that the when people go looking for NCB information, _particularly after a bad experience_, what they get is so out there, shaming, and blaming -- and so far from their own narrative and understanding -- that they reject it wholesale.

Threads like these always remind me why I ended up with a very traditional OB in a high-tech hospital - who really, truly supported me in the most natural second delivery possible.


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## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 
Get educated, find out about "evidence-based care," try to make sure you're getting it (because it is not the "default" setting), and advocate for yourself!

I don't disagree with this. I think this is the optimal approach to any healthcare decision.

I also think that the vehemence with which this message is promoted in NCB can be intimidating to someone encountering it for the first time. And I think there are broader perspectives that also are worth our consideration.

My perspective is that not everyone is approaching their birth optimally in part because access to information and the power to change your decisions based on that information is a privilege that not everyone has in this society. Many women are stuck, not because they don't have information or because they're not trying to advocate for themselves, but because there are compelling factors beyond their information or desires that have huge influence on what they are able to do.

Insurance policies, hospital policies, state laws...these things matter, and the harder a woman has to fight a system that is pitted against her best interests, the harder it's going to be for her to have an optimal experience, no matter how educated she is and how much she advocates for herself.

I'm not saying that women should give up responsibility and just submit to the system. I am saying that individual women alone cannot do all the work. We need systemic change.

I also think that long-time NCB advocates have been looking at these issues from so many angles for so long, and the picture seems so clear, that it can be easy to forget that for a woman first thinking about childbirth, things can be overwhelming and unclear. There is a ton of information about childbirth out there. It takes a lot of intellectual rigor to sort through the good science and the bad. Not everyone finds their way to NCB effortlessly and immediately discovers the "right" books. For many of us, finding our way through all the birth info is a long and winding journey, and for some of us, there are some pretty difficult experiences driving our inquiry.

For me, that's a clear reason to approach any woman's story with humility and compassion.

One last thought (see, I'm writing a novel, too!). It's too bad that people have silly stereotypes about natural birthers, but it's a pretty typical response to the Other. And sure, many of us look (and smell) like any average person, but our ideas are revolutionary. Depending on where you're coming from, those ideas can be pretty "out there."

I'll admit that when I first learned about UC, it was like learning that there are women who can fly. It seemed completely amazing and preposterous at the same time, and honestly, I had trouble believing that anyone would want or try to do it. Now that I've learned more, I understand where women who make that choice are coming from, and it makes more sense to me. But learning more hasn't led me to believe that it would ever be the right choice for me.

So I guess I understand women who "don't get" the NCB message at first, and I also understand that some women are going to get a lot of information and conclude that NCB isn't right for them.

I don't think we sacrifice any of our power by listening more or by bringing more compassion and humility into how we deliver our message.


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
Well, we all read through our own filters. What I see (and freely admit my experience has coloured this) is that the when people go looking for NCB information, _particularly after a bad experience_, what they get is so out there, shaming, and blaming -- and so far from their own narrative and understanding -- that they reject it wholesale.









That's a shame & I'm sorry that has been your experience. & I'm sorry if anyone has that experience. It's a shame. It's wrong.

I think the best case scenario is that we all can tailor our message to the person we're communicating with.
For example, if I meet someone who's already PG or already has kids, I'll be really delicate around the subject of birth if it comes up. Maybe just to say I had a natural birth & it rocked! Since, IMX, there just aren't that many people who say natural birth (or birth overall!) can be positive!







The prevailing belief is, "Why go through all that pain if I don't have to?" as well as "Natural birth makes as much sense as natural dentistry!"
So here, standing in front of you, is someone who's not totally insane or hippy & had a natural birth she enjoyed. So ask me Qs if you like.

However, with women who aren't PG or even in the middle of trying, I DO admit that I WILL try to *warn them!* Again, I think warnings are _necessary_.

So if I say, essentially,
*1. "Get educated or you may be subjected to bad things."*
(Yet again, that is not to say that getting educated guarantees you will _not_ have a bad experience.)
_
Do you think that's the same as saying,_
*2. "If you have had a bad experience, it is partially your own fault."????*

*In other words, is it even possible say sentence #1 without also communicating the idea of sentence #2?*

*Are they the the same message?*

If so, that's really a shame, because that's not what I mean. It's also a shame because I can tell you I don't plan to stop saying sentence #1. My sense of righteousness won't let me shut-up.

When I got PG, I never knew a single soul who had any desire for natural birth.







I knew some who'd had 2nd babies without an epidural because there was no time & they were pissed! That was it.

I started pregnancy honestly thinking the same as above, "Of course I'll get the epidural! I've got nothing to prove!" BUT FOR ONE DISCUSSION.... One tiny flicker from years past...

Friends of friends at a weekend getaway - a PhD reproductive epidemiologist & an RN were chatting. They said the CS rate in the US is high and higher than other industrialized nations. I remember the PhD lady saying, "Don't let them section you for FTP! We don't even know what normal labor curves are!"
That is about all I remembered. That was it.

So I reasoned that if the US CS rate is higher than elsewhere, it's probably _higher than it needs to be_, which means some women have CS that aren't truly necessary. So how do I make sure I'm not one of them? That was my one and only goal - avoid a CS. THAT is what got me to order "Thinking Woman's Guide" & THAT is what got me switching to MWs & taking Bradley training.

I type out this long story to illustrate a point: Had it not been for that discussion at a party years ago, I probably would have gone down a horrible path. Honestly, I want to scream, throw stuff & then cry thinking about it. I probably would have read my copy of "Mayo Clinic Guide to a Healthy Pregnancy" & other books like the one published by ACOG that my MW's office gave me a copy of. I probably would have attended birth class at the hospital & with all of that, considered myself "educated."

That's the other thing that kills me about birth in America today - even if you DO make efforts to get educated, they don't always truly lead to you being fully informed (since they don't tell you about the chasm between evidence & practice that exists.) So it is THAT fact that I feel so compelled to warn women about (the fact that anti-evidence-based practice is really the norm.)

Then I probably would have been induced at 41W because of the "Dead baby card" (increased risk of still birth.) And, well, we all know what happens when first-time-moms are induced.







I think I heard the CS rate for induction in FTMs is around 50% (not sure about that stat, but I know it is high.) Again,









I just can't help but continue to shudder thinking of what would have happened if I hadn't heard that conversation at a party years ago. I can't stop my feeling of wanting to WARN other women.

After I typed this all up & proofed it - I guess I really see your point that "we all read through our own filters." Because in my experience, I see a horrible outcome if I had NOT gotten adequately educated, but had a great experience thanks to my education (and, of course, thanks to pure luck too, since that's a significant factor.)

Again, _for me personally_, the education didn't guarantee a good outcome, but I feel strongly that had I stayed on my 1st trimester path (pre-education), a bad outcome WAS a guarantee for me!

(I can't imagine I would have been emotionally comfortable being tied to monitors. I'm honestly sick at the thought - cEFM + "nothing by mouth" & IV were standard for all births at Johns Hopkins. So even if I'd managed to birth vaginally, & even if I'd managed to birth without an epidural, I'm pretty confident it would not have been a joyful experience.)


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## MsBlack (Apr 10, 2007)

*Responsibility, not blame*

There is a difference!

What I believe is that whatever happens in our lives, we share responsibility with all others involved, including institutions, for what occurs. If I was 'there', where and when things occurred, then I was part of the unfolding of events--for better and for worse.

Whether through intention or just getting caught up unaware in things, whether planned/considered or spontaneous/accidental, we are all busy every minute creating the things that happen. We are all busy co-creating, with all others/institutions, all events and trends, actively or passively.

So, saying that someone could have done things differently, saying that in some ways a person contributed to her own disappointment or even trauma at birth, IS NOT THE SAME AS BLAMING HER!

You know, some terrible things have happened to me in this life--including one birth I experienced as traumatic in various ways (even though in other ways it was what it needed to be). In any event, people and institutions have at times in my life influenced events in ways that were bad for me--sad, or infuriating, disruptive of my family, my peace and finances and whatever else (not counting natural losses or disasters, but the kind people create together). And with those things, *sometimes* it has been very clear that I was not to blame--could not have controlled others or institutions, was working actively toward what I felt were positive, win-win outcomes. Or, like the woman of this story, was just trying to trust in others and institutions to take care of me as a simple part of common social agreements and common expectations of courtesy, respect, safety, etc--like the author of that story. Sometimes it has been clear that I was just doing my best with a good-enough heart and intentions...was really 'not to blame' for what happened...clear that others either acted very badly indeed (viciously, selfishly, whatever) or were too passive for their own or anyone else's good.

And still...and still!

The only way I know of to move forward, to help heal hurts and become more effective and joyful in this life is to TAKE RESPONSIBILITY. To claim an ability to respond--to respond more effectively in future--to look at what happened, who was involved, where my own thoughts and trust were at, etc. I do this all toward claiming my power more fully, and figuring out how I might change my own thoughts/behaviors henceforward, all toward more peaceable, healthy, joyful events and days.

Because while there is much in this life we really can't control, one thing I am convinced of: we do have power, and we are always exercising it one way or another. We do have the capacity to create and co-create, which includes the ability to look at things differently than before, and to imagine new possibilities, influence new outcomes for ourselves/families. We CAN choose, we ARE choosing all the time....and can utilize that power of choice to better our lives. What better time than following a loss/tragedy/trauma to reconsider our own power, our own choices and actions and trust?

No, we don't entirely control birth--it is one of those things in life that requires about as much surrender as it does pro-active approach, one of those things that we can be as much 'subjected to' as 'creator of'.

And still--anyone CAN take responsibility for a birth outcome in some ways, toward more confidence and empowerment in future births (whatever our future-birth choices might be, and whatever birth deals out despite our best efforts to prepare). Indeed, the only way to gain confidence and empowerment toward better births--along with true peace and healing in time-- is to take responsibility for those that went before.

NOT BLAME! One might 'blame' that woman for not taking birth seriously enough at first, and trusting institutions too much for her own good. And one might also encourage her to look at what happened just for the purpose of seeing where her trust was possibly misplaced, how she might have better prepared herself, what place she gives her own power/decision-making in birth, what she really wants from birth...and these things are well-known to help women have better future birth experiences.

Since birth is NOT controllable, and people/institutions are not foolproof, and life guarantees only that we will know sorrow and anger along with joy and love, sometimes 'taking responsibility' mainly means letting go and moving on. Means acknowledging that a loss or disruption occurred 'just because', despite our own and all others most loving and best intentions/efforts; means forgiving oneself, and other players, for being merely human, and accepting that there just is no way to make everything perfect all the time.

To me it is so essential in this era of birth that women DO take responsibility for their births--for their own and children's health and happiness. And again, it does not mean taking the blame (or giving them the blame). It means claiming our innate and ever-ongoing ability to respond in our lives. We are always responding, and always responsible in some ways--no matter what is happening around us or to us. Whether or not we are 'to blame' for things, no matter how much 'to blame' others are for their input, we ourselves are always responding and responsible, we always have the power to choose our responses as we shape/co-shape our lives. And claiming that responsibility to me is the way toward being free: NOT bound by blame, but free to choose my life and feelings.

As for the author of that birth story, seems to me she got a wake-up call with her first birth! And doesn't quite know what to do with it yet







But at least she is thinking about it. Which is the first step/s in Taking Responsibility...NOW, she has a better chance of creating a birth she can be happy with


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 







That's a shame & I'm sorry that has been your experience. & I'm sorry if anyone has that experience. It's a shame. It's wrong.

I think the best case scenario is that we all can tailor our message to the person we're communicating with.
For example, if I meet someone who's already PG or already has kids, I'll be really delicate around the subject of birth if it comes up. Maybe just to say I had a natural birth & it rocked! Since, IMX, there just aren't that many people who say natural birth (or birth overall!) can be positive!







The prevailing belief is, "Why go through all that pain if I don't have to?" as well as "Natural birth makes as much sense as natural dentistry!"
So here, standing in front of you, is someone who's not totally insane or hippy & had a natural birth she enjoyed. So ask me Qs if you like.

However, with women who aren't PG or even in the middle of trying, I DO admit that I WILL try to *warn them!* Again, I think warnings are _necessary_.

So if I say, essentially,
*1. "Get educated or you may be subjected to bad things."*
(Yet again, that is not to say that getting educated guarantees you will _not_ have a bad experience.)
_
Do you think that's the same as saying,_
*2. "If you have had a bad experience, it is partially your own fault."????*

*In other words, is it even possible say sentence #1 without also communicating the idea of sentence #2?*

*Are they the the same message?*

I don't think they are the same thing, no. However I do know that when I've been pregnant I've heard sooooo many warnings and gotten sooooo much unsolicited advice that none of it really stands out much.

On the negative side, I do think when women are discussing their own experience, fears and thoughts, and the immediate reaction is the armchair quarterback response, ("If only you/this woman had X...") that is where the shame and blame really begin. It saddens me that a community that purports to be woman-centered and inclusive can actually be quite the reverse with anyone who doesn't toe the line.

On the positive side, I think natural childbirth methods are strong enough to stand on their own without the constant critiques of "all these dumb women" who actually are brave about sharing their realities. In other words, you don't have to deconstruct other people's experience. Sharing your own story (as you did here) is powerful on its own.

The last thing I think came to mind in your post is the question of how to talk to people who have had traumatic birth experiences. I think this is where I have come to believe the NCB has a lot of work to do on the side of evidence and decision-making in labour.

When a woman has had a bad experience - either iatrogenically, like this experience seems to have been, or through a complication or condition - the NCB response rarely seems to be "this is how we, as advocates for natural labour and delivery, would respond to that."

It's mostly either pulling out stats about why that wouldn't/shouldn't/couldn't happen -- to a woman for whom it did -- or something about trust or nature or what-have-you.

But the thing is, even if your c-section wasn't warranted or your complication was a 1:100,000 case, a woman who has had to make (or had imposed) what she at a vulnerable and physically difficult moment perceived to be a life-or-death situation, or experienced a total lack of control, these responses are not necessarily helpful.

I think this article and the response to it illustrates this beautifully. You take a woman who was held down while her membranes were stripped and tell her aromatherapy will work for her? Do you think she's going to end up respecting that? And then she gets criticized for rejecting that? I don't know. It's not a response I'm comfortable with. I wish the NCB would listen to women about why they get turned off - it's important.

I could hear 1000 birth stories about nuchal cords with happy ending but that will never, ever erase the my experience. It's always interesting to me how (in every medical field on all sides) some people get that, and they listen, and they can even still present all the same information, but over time and in a respectful way, but they are rare. Most people are perfectly willing to trample your experience and feelings in order to make their political point.


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## Raine822 (Dec 11, 2008)

My first birth was very similar to her story. I am crying reading her story and this thread. I know I am going against the grain here but...

She is a victim and is in no way responsible for what happened to her. Just because the information is out there to be had does not make it easy or possible to be educated. Depending on the situation many people are so conditioned to trust doctors that they will either not research or disregard anything different. I considered a birthplan for example but mistakenly thought that I could not change my mind.

Blaming women who are treated so poorly will help no-one. Not all care providers are this bad but the ones who are do these things ON PURPOSE. They will use any tactic they can to get what they want. It is an abuse of trust and power that I cannot put into words. I asked the questions that I knew were important to me and was told the whole time that my wishes would be honored. I never had any reason to doubt that they would not or that there was much more information than I had. I trusted the doctor to point me in the right direction so the books I read were mainstream and only touched the surface of the options out there.

I did skip over NCB info when I rarely came across it because I had been told by family, friends, doctors, and books that anything other than trusting a doctor wholeheartedly is dangerous. Fear-mongering is so rampant around the subject of birth.

My main request was informed consent. I was assured many times that I would be involved. Once I arrived at the hospital all bets were off. Just like in her story my water was broken with not a word to be and against my begging to stop. I was given drugs against my express refusal. I was violated over and over again. There was no way I could have known this may happen and no way I could stop it being drugged and attached to all manner of machines. If I so much as rolled over a nurse was coming in to fix the monitor and yell at me for moving.

They even went as far as to have me sign consent forms after drugging me and having me sign the patient rights(including informed consent-it is supposed to be given upon arrival) at the time of discharge. If I didn't sign, I didn't get discharged and neither did DD.

It is horrifically painful to read/hear that you are responsible for someone treating you so badly. It is possible to be educated and even prevent these things sometimes but the roadblocks to this are many. Sadly, most of the women who have suffered this had to learn the hard way. Sorry if this is rambling and confusing-I am feeling quite hurt right now.


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## Joyster (Oct 26, 2007)

I was so shocked to read the article. I had a hard time with the way it was written, I kinda like things to be spoon fed to me and this was somewhat all over the place, but it reminds me of a therapy piece. I couldn't believe her birth experience, sitting back here, I thought to myself "I would have kicked that doctor in the head!" easy for me to say. Definitely not something I would have done first labour, maybe number three, I'm pretty testy.

I think it's a good piece of education, for the NCB. I live in Ontario. Midwives are primary care providers. If you are low risk, you can get through pregnancy and birth without seeing an OB. It's covered, we don't pay for it, directly anyhow, and *to me* there is tonnes of information available.

That said, I am a social worker, or was til these kids started calling me mom. I'm supposed to know where and how to access women related information. Many, many, many people I come across do not know how to access these services for a myriad of valid reasons. Many of them have no idea of what a doula is. Many think that they have to pay for midwives, or they see them with their doctors, or they're no where near as qualified. Is it their responsibility to do some research? Sure, I guess. But I think it's also very important for us to do outreach in a safe and accessible manner. If that means that we have to tone down our staunchest beliefs in order not to seem too polarized or judgemental, then yes, if you want informed births for every women, so be it.

I could always say "Well, these abused women, they should KNOW that there are shelters and laws and hotlines, you can't walk into a doctor's office/community centre/etc without seeing some information on that!" but their failure to access that information, is also a failure on my part. I can't go in and say "You need to leave your husband NOW! He's a butt, he's a criminal, he's never going to change and if you end up dead, it's your own fault." I'm going to scare the hell out of a woman and sound like a first year student. I can arm her with the facts, let her know how to protect herself, let her know that legally CPS might become involved, let her know that it has to be HER choice and my job was to just give her this side of the equation. Yeah, I'd like her to leave as of yesterday, but I cannot project that and be a respectful feminist counsellor. It's not easy to do and takes a lot of practice and a huge amount of dedication to believing that a woman's body is her choice.

Some folks believe because there are children involved in the case of birth, that her choices are open for discussion, but I that case, I think those folks should be ready for all their decisions as a mother to be open to criticism too, no matter how stressed, scared, tired, imperfect, in pain or upset they might have been at the time.

I have to admit that I do feel a bit of pressure from my care providers to be as au naturel as possible with this birth. I can say I trust my body all I want, but I know I nearly lost my first, I didn't much care for the pain the second time and really the only reason why I want to do this naturally is because I want to land on my feet, which is harder IME with a lot of the interventions. I'm on my third pregnancy now, so I just don't give a fig what anyone thinks to be honest, but a first time mom, I can see that pressure (even if not directly projected) from any care provider being a huge weight. I think a lot of the NCB folks feel like they are fighting uphill against all the mainstream data, and it's true, but that also makes a lot of people sound dogmatic about it, and IME the message kinda gets lost on the majority of folks if you're too extreme.

Anyhow, I'm risking writing this post in the style I just criticized with the article, so I'll stop while I'm ahead.


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Joyster* 
I think a lot of the NCB folks feel like they are fighting uphill against all the mainstream data, and it's true, but that also makes a lot of people sound dogmatic about it, and IME the message kinda gets lost on the majority of folks if you're too extreme.

ITA
I think this is an astute observation & a big part of the problem.

I also feel like I want to "shout louder," so to speak, about NCB _because there are so few people spreading the message._ Americans are bombarded with 'mainstream' messages (birth is painful, awful, dangerous, belongs in the hospital, OB is your best HCP & anything less is inferior & risky, docs are gods etc.)

I hope that in my passion, I don't sound dogmatic, although I know I can be extreme. I'm an intense person. But it's tough. *Because I do feel I have to "fight" for the message.* "Fight" to get the truth out. "Fight" uphill.


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## MyFillingQuiver (Sep 7, 2009)

(snuggling a sleeping 13 month old-sorry for any spelling/typos)

I love what a PP described hearing at a party, and how that teeny tiny tidbit was something that got her thinking enough to prevent her from taking another birth path.

I have found that people start out from different perspectives and backgrounds, and most of them seem to be mainstream. They either continue in those paths, or they come across information (from doing research or from meeting someone who cares enough to go out on a limb and talk to them) to change their views.

Unfortunately, for people like me, it's only in small increments that the changes come! Maybe this is how the author of the article will be..always hope.

I suffered permanent injury and misdiagnosis in a military pregnancy/birth for my first. As a result, I learned some things, sought out a naturopath, but yet STILL went back to an OB for my next pregnancy. Why? I never knew that a MW could care for me since I WAS healthy...No one ever told me. I never took responsibility and found out on my own. Therefore, I had a medically managed vaginal birth for my second, a c-section for my third..and I NEVER even asked for a version..cause..."Dr knows best!" EVEN after in my heart I knew the OB in my first pregnancy nearly killed me because of his own God complex..I still went with it!

I had a VBAC banned forced repeat section for #4. It wasn't until my OTHER life choices led me down a more natural path-CD, BF'ing, no-vax'ing, natural medicine for our family, NFP, healthier eating, that I found MDC and ICAN. It was BECAUSE of other women who shared their experiences and knowledge, that I found the strength to have a VBA2C..and then a year later, the strength to stand up to the OB who warned me I was jeopardizing my unborn child's health when I informed him I was choosing a HB with a MW.

If women hadn't shared their HONEST information (and I've read the good AND the bad-the losses, the bad MW stories, the honest tragedies that CAN and DO happen in birth-so it ain't naiveity) I would likely be ending my family growth at risk of "too many sections". That choice is something I couldn't bear once again-already had a TL at my 2nd section when I believed all my births had to be medical. I had it reversed when I found strength to go against the mainstream-due to the experiences and knowledge and support of other women here and ICAN.

Thank you for sharing the good, the bad and the choices. What I am thankful for, and what I desire, is the information honestly presented for ME to make a choice...what I can't stand is the idea that most women I have met have never been exposed to the choices available, and therefore MAY very well suffer damaging births as a result of their lack of knowledge-just like I did.

Blessings and thank you!


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## _ktg_ (Jul 11, 2008)

I liked this essay. I will believe it was probably very therapeutic for the author to bravely bring forward her experience. Sadly it has been criticized. What I choose to take away from this essay is a reminder of how to work with clients and the fact it is their birth, their body and their choices. I liked the response of the last doula. So that is what I will take away from this essay and I will stay away from the rest of the hoo-ha and the usual blame game we see when people choose to share traumatic birth stories.


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## Joyster (Oct 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 
ITA
I think this is an astute observation & a big part of the problem.

I also feel like I want to "shout louder," so to speak, about NCB _because there are so few people spreading the message._ Americans are bombarded with 'mainstream' messages (birth is painful, awful, dangerous, belongs in the hospital, OB is your best HCP & anything less is inferior & risky, docs are gods etc.)

I hope that in my passion, I don't sound dogmatic, although I know I can be extreme. I'm an intense person. But it's tough. *Because I do feel I have to "fight" for the message.* "Fight" to get the truth out. "Fight" uphill.










Birth is painful.







At least it was for me. But it's an interesting thing to chat about for a second. Sometimes I've read a post (not using you or yours as an example just so I'm clear) or article saying that birth isn't painful, or the pain is easily managed. Now to someone like me, who is doing a natural birth and has been through one, I'm like "yeah right!" To someone else who is totally mainstream, they're going to think "Are you nuts!?" and boom, they shut down because they think you're crazy. Some of this is because they have been told and shown that birth is the most godawful thing in the world, but for many folks, birth simply hurts like the dickens no matter how many natural interventions you have and that's cool too, but according to some folks, even if you feel too much pain, you must be doing it wrong. Which again, turns people away.

So where's the balance? Acknowledging that yes, for many birth is painful, but that pain can be managed to a degree, which in the end may likely see you up and about much more quickly and lessens the risk of the snowball effect. HOWEVER, we are not all built the same way, we do not have the same life experiences, the pain tolerances, or have the same births so if you need an epidural Mama, I'm not going to judge, because I can't make that call for you. I just wanted you to know both sides so you can make the best decision for yourself.







I'm planning on doing this labour naturally, but I'm honest with myself, if I'm in back labour for hours on end, my resolve may not be the same.









I think the fact that you are thinking about how you approach spreading your POV to others is good! I often think of people I admire who have made great changes in the world. They had every reason to be dogmatic, they even had every reason to be angry, vengeful, downright nasty, but chose a more peaceful, however amazingly determined way to get their results, and that inspires me greatly. I think most of all, what strikes me about them is the dignity in which they have carried out their goals, it's something unreal.


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## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 
I also feel like I want to "shout louder," so to speak, about NCB _because there are so few people spreading the message._ Americans are bombarded with 'mainstream' messages (birth is painful, awful, dangerous, belongs in the hospital, OB is your best HCP & anything less is inferior & risky, docs are gods etc.)

I hope that in my passion, I don't sound dogmatic, although I know I can be extreme. I'm an intense person. But it's tough. *Because I do feel I have to "fight" for the message.* "Fight" to get the truth out. "Fight" uphill.









I really appreciate the passion and conviction with which some who advocate for NCB fight for what they believe is right. And I totally get that the motivation is to help other women have better experiences and avoid suffering. There are certainly times and places where a battle axe is the right tool.

As advocates, we need to be more mindful of when we wield that tool and who we aim it at. I've been processing a complex, difficult birth experience that has many traumatic aspects. If the first time I say "I had a c-section" someone comes charging at me with a battle axe, whoa, that is really off-putting. If I weren't already an NCB advocate, it would probably completely turn me off to the whole concept of "natural."

I guess I would say to all impassioned advocates:
Before you pull out the battle axe, have you taken time to listen to my story? Are you making assumptions about what I know and don't know? Have you considered that you might not have the full story, that the full story might be really complex and difficult for *me* to understand, let alone trying to tell it to someone else and have it make sense?

If you listen to me and you share your story in a way that is conversational, with give and take, with time to process what's being said and to respond from the heart, not just from the head, that's the kind of the support that I want and need. You can't change my bad experience or give me a new good one. You can ease my suffering in a different way by listening and caring about what I say. You show that you're listening and caring by responding from your heart, rather than pulling out your canned "trust your body, not doctors" speech. Who knows, you might even learn something yourself. If I want information, I'll ask for information, and I'll appreciate anything you can direct me to. But if I'm not asking for information, that's not what I want.

And please, please, please share your story. Tell me what it was like for you. Tell me what you thought and felt along the way, and what you've learned by doing things that way. Just stop there. Don't moralize; don't warn; I don't need that. I agree with PP: our stories can speak for themselves.


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## MegBoz (Jul 8, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Joyster* 
Birth is painful.







At least it was for me.

Oh, it was for me to! What I _should_ have said is, "Mainstream always teaches that birth is _unbearably, miserably_ painful. To the point where it's torture to endure without pharmacological relief."







_That_ is what I meant.

When the issue of pain & NCB comes up, I'm usually quick to clarify on it for me - to acknowledge that it was indeed painful, but it was only really painful at the end (transition) was manageable, like cramps, otherwise. & even during transition I still had a break in between ctrx & even within the 1 min long ctrx, they ramped up & down so were only bad about 30 sec or so.

Yeah, I agree, if you come at a mainstream person with a message of, "Oh birth doesn't have to be painful!" they will shut down. That's not something I personally have ever said.

As a matter of fact, when I've recommended the movie "Orgasmic Birth" I always immediately say, "But it's really a bad title for the movie! It should have been called 'Joyful Birth.' Really only one chick in the movie had an orgasmic birth! The others were like me - painful, but manageable & overall very joyful & empowering."

Also, when it comes to NCB advocacy, I'm also quick to say, "Even if you want the epidural, get educated! Keep your mind open (maybe you won't need it-- at least wait & see.) Learn about other interventions." Ya know? Avoid AROM, don't be induced without good cause, don't push in lithotomy, don't hold your breath longer than comfortable, see if you can avoid pit without real need, (or turn it down once ctrx are going, or not continue to turn it up & up & up) etc.

IOW, the need to get educated in order to ensure evidence-based care is still a real need even for women who want an epidural.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CI Mama* 
There are certainly times and places where a battle axe is the right tool.

As advocates, we need to be more mindful of when we wield that tool and who we aim it at.

ITA

Just wanted to also add here on this thread that the way I write on MDC definitely differs from what I'd say IRL.








Especially since I have to spend so much time delicately choosing my words in my professional career.







it gets so tiresome, honestly, to have to show so much restraint & not reveal exasperation!

So since I expect to be 'preaching to the choir' here on MDC, I probably let my intensity & passion shine through full force most of the time. But, again, my posting here is not indicative of how I might speak IRL.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *CI Mama* 
And please, please, please share your story. Tell me what it was like for you. Tell me what you thought and felt along the way, and what you've learned by doing things that way. Just stop there. Don't moralize; don't warn; I don't need that. I agree with PP: our stories can speak for themselves.

Hm, Ok, but do you think it's appropriate to "warn" women who are not even PG (but may have a baby in the future)?


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## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MegBoz* 
So since I expect to be 'preaching to the choir' here on MDC, I probably let my intensity & passion shine through full force most of the time. But, again, my posting here is not indicative of how I might speak IRL.

Hm, Ok, but do you think it's appropriate to "warn" women who are not even PG (but may have a baby in the future)?

I express myself on MDC differently than I do IRL too! I think I'm much more articulate in writing.







When I talk, I tend to blather.

As for the "warning" for women who might have a baby in the future...

I'm trying to remember what was powerful for me, because I learned about NCB long, long before I became pregnant. I read about it in Our Bodies, Ourselves, and I had a college friend who wanted to become an OB because she wanted to be a natural birth friendly OB. I'm also a fan of Toni's birth story in ***** to Watch Out For.







Plenty of hours spent browsing the shelves of a variety of feminist bookstores was also influential. And my step sister trained to be a midwife and had 2 HB-turned-c-section experiences, so that was another perspective. There are lots of others too. I had a friend who used a doula for her birth and turned me on to that idea. I had another friend who had an amazing HB water birth that she shared with me. I had a number of friends who did hospital births with varying degrees of intervention. I feel fortunate that I had exposure to a fairly rich array of stories, perspectives & information about birth in general and natural child birth in particular long before I became pregnant.

I wouldn't say that I perceived any of that information or stories as a "warning." It definitely opened my mind to the idea that there isn't just one way of viewing birth (the mainstream medical way) and it helped me know that I could look for other resources that would be more natural. It helped me think about my labor/birth wishes and expectations in a nuanced way when I finally was ready to embark on that journey myself. It didn't make it possible for me to choose everything I wanted for an ideal birth, and it didn't prevent my c-section.

Do I remember any stats that someone told me in the 1990s, eons before I was even ready to consider the possibility of getting pregnant? No. Do I remember each and every birth story that any woman has ever told me and feel honored that she shared it? Yes, absolutely.

I guess I would stand by my original statement: stories are powerful and they need to be told clearly, honestly, from our hearts, and that's enough.


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

I haven't read the thread or the article yet, but I want to answer the title.

Nobody controls childbirth - not the mom, not the careprovider (doctor or midwife), not the baby...nobody.

In my opinion, the belief that someone - anyone - can control a birth is the single biggest negative in women's birth experiences. There are too many attempts to control it, which creates negatives, and the aftermath when things don't go well swirls into a mess of "whose fault was it?", which is also negative.


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## WifeofAnt (May 2, 2010)

I haven't read all of the posts but I do have something to say. I don't think her trauma was from not getting what she wanted or the interventions necessary to have her baby, I think its from the way it was done! No matter what you want (natural/epidural/csection) if you can't be respected and treated like a human being its going to suck and you're going to hate it. The horrible thing is that you can't control what other people say or do and how they say/do it. You can't make anyone respect you as a person.


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## lunamegn (Nov 30, 2004)

This part of the article made me sad:

Quote:

They are rarely made up of crazy requests, but in my opinion, the very act of creating such a contract was to ignore what labor is: something unpredictable _that you are in no way qualified to dictate._
She's referring to a birth plan here.


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:

It bugs me when pieces like this are referred to as "articles." An article is fact-based. This is a personal essay.
Dh and I were just talking about how Time magazine has done this a couple times lately, presenting an opinion piece as an article.


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## mamabadger (Apr 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I don't personally believe women should have to research everything about birth to get good care in a hospital. It may currently be the reality. But it's a systemic, patriarchical issues. Blaming the woman at the bottom of the totem pole is just wrong, in my opinion.

I agree. This woman was mistreated, disrespected, and assaulted by someone abusing his position. It is possible things would have gone better if she had been very well informed and extremely wary - to the extent of being alert to the possibility her OB was deliberately lying to her, and maybe carrying pepper spray into the labour room - but why should she have to take on _all_ the responsibility for not being molested and given inappropriate medical care? Why are most of us, even the author herself, second-guessing her decisions instead of focusing on the jerk who casually screwed up her birth and brought on her PTSD?
Women can benefit from being informed about the risks of date rape: when it could happen, how to avoid it, etc. We might say it is a sensible precaution to take. We would never suggest that, if a woman is not well informed, she shares in the responsibility for her assault. The blame, 100% of it, lies with her attacker. The same applies in this case.
Yes, childbirth is unpredictable, but unwarranted medical procedures without patient consent does not qualify as one of those quirks of fate you need to allow for.
As a CBE, I would be the last person to dismiss the importance of prenatal education; but information alone cannot protect women from the worst aspects of hospital obstetrics. The smartest and best informed woman can end up being railroaded by a system of obstetrics which does not have her best interests at heart. The _worst_ prepared pregnant woman in the world should not have to face treatment like this. Maybe she needed to read some books and take some classes, but mostly she needed not to be abused by some







in a white coat.


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## CI Mama (Apr 8, 2010)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamabadger* 
I agree. This woman was mistreated, disrespected, and assaulted by someone abusing his position. It is possible things would have gone better if she had been very well informed and extremely wary - to the extent of being alert to the possibility her OB was deliberately lying to her, and maybe carrying pepper spray into the labour room - but why should she have to take on _all_ the responsibility for not being molested and given inappropriate medical care? Why are most of us, even the author herself, second-guessing her decisions instead of focusing on the jerk who casually screwed up her birth and brought on her PTSD?
Women can benefit from being informed about the risks of date rape: when it could happen, how to avoid it, etc. We might say it is a sensible precaution to take. We would never suggest that, if a woman is not well informed, she shares in the responsibility for her assault. The blame, 100% of it, lies with her attacker. The same applies in this case.
Yes, childbirth is unpredictable, but unwarranted medical procedures without patient consent does not qualify as one of those quirks of fate you need to allow for.
As a CBE, I would be the last person to dismiss the importance of prenatal education; but information alone cannot protect women from the worst aspects of hospital obstetrics. The smartest and best informed woman can end up being railroaded by a system of obstetrics which does not have her best interests at heart. The _worst_ prepared pregnant woman in the world should not have to face treatment like this. Maybe she needed to read some books and take some classes, but mostly she needed not to be abused by some







in a white coat.

Thank you for saying this!!! YES!!!

And I have a few more thoughts to share, since apparently I'm not going to be able to sleep until I get this out.

"I know what's right for me, therefore I know what's right for you."
I think this is the underlying tone of a lot of NCB advocacy, and I'm uncomfortable with it. I feel like the mainstream medical model has the whole "I know what's right for you" approach well in hand, and I want & expect NCB to be different. I believe that telling our own truths and listening are both radical acts.

If our message is "Listen up, women: you can drive your own decisions in labor and delivery and you should be the ultimate authority in your own care" I think there's a disconnect if we deliver that message by saying essentially "I'm going to pick apart your experience, point out all the mistakes that you made, tell you to educate yourself, and then shove a bunch of information your way that I expect you to accept unquestioningly as your new truth."

I just believe very, very strongly that *the way* that we advocate is just as important as the information that we share. We have to walk the talk.

I keep wondering if the woman who wrote that article will ever find her way to MDC and discover this thread. If she does, will she feel like the NCB world is a welcoming place for her?

OK, I've gotten way too obsessed with this thread, a sign that I need to "unplug" from MDC for a spell. Good night!


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## accountclosed3 (Jun 13, 2006)

i think that we are talking about so many layers to this issue.

I agree with GuildJenn that a woman shouldn't have to educate herself to get good care in the hospital. There is an inherent problem in the system that needs to be challenged and overturned.

I also agree with the essayist that her experience really sucked. And, i think it was double for her because not only was she abused, but her trust was broken. I mean, she (and Jenn) are right--one "should" be able to trust people.

But the reality is, we *do* have a responsibility. the real question is, what is that responsibility?

Again, i agree with Jenn. you really "shouldn't have to" research everything about birth.

But it is a good idea to know about the medical situation surrounding birth--to not go in with blind faith--so that you can protect yourself from abuses and also so that you can be a part of the process and know what to expect with certain processes. Women who do educate themselves about the situation of birth, etc, tend to be happier with their outcomes--whether those are NCBs or not.

to an extent, this is not about NCB advocates at all. NCB advocates are involved in this process--we are involved in the process of striving to make maternity care client focused and evidence based to be safe for women and children. We are trying to make NCB available to women in hospital settings, when "the system" is really working to not allow that.

and out of this comes some faulty language like "well, if you didn't want to be abused, don't go to a hospital. homebirth prevents that." which of course, isn't really *solving* the problem that hospitals and doctors can be corrupt.

and that also is where that blame game comes in--the idea that since you chose a hospital, you chose to put yourself at risk. but to me, that's like saying 'you wore a short skirt, you deserved to get raped." absolutely silly. choosing a hospital can be absolutely the right thing (and it's certainly more considered than skirt lengths in most cases), and that hospital *should be* safe.

but, it can only be safe if 1. women know that it is unsafe and demand for it to become safe; and 2. women understand who their partners in birth are (their doctors), what they believe and practice, and whether that meshes with what those women want.

this does require education, taking responsibility, and choosing carefully.

and then this takes us to that next element, which is to say that even when women are fully informed, taking responsibility and so on, *abuse still happens*. A PP wrote how their doctor stripped membranes, broke the amniotic sack, and put in an IFM all without permission and under the guise of doing a VE. those parents were informed, were active, and were still violated.

so, yes, a whole culture change needs to happen.


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## accountclosed3 (Jun 13, 2006)

yes, that is it.

as mamabadger said, and i was trying to say, there is no blame on the woman who is violated. educated or uneducated, the violation is not her fault!

true, education can prevent things, but things even happen to educated people.


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## Hannah32 (Dec 23, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *lunamegn* 
This part of the article made me sad:

They are rarely made up of crazy requests, but in my opinion, the very act of creating such a contract was to ignore what labor is: something unpredictable that you are in no way qualified to dictate.

She's referring to a birth plan here.

I'm a big believer in bodily integrity and the right to make one's own decisions. Therefore, I support a woman's right to do whatever she wants regarding childbirth.

However, I see what the author meant by that quote. I'm not a doctor. I didn't go to medical school. So, no, I didn't feel qualified at my own birth to present a "plan," because how much did I really know about the various risks? And I gotta say, for me, reading Ina May's book didn't really give me everything I needed. That's just me though, and I completely support those who feel that they can learn everything they need to know from NCB literature. But for me it didn't make me feel like I could tell my doctor what should happen. So I basically did what she said. And it turned out really well for me, which creates a bias in my mind, based on my own experience.

The key here is that I did have a good doctor. The doctor described in the article was terrible! Just an awful way to treat someone.....


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## dannic (Jun 14, 2005)

Hmm. When I was first married, I was adamantly opposed to HB for myself. I had a friend who HB'd and it was just a turn off to me.
My first pregnancy ended in miscarriage--and while I was still researching which dr. to go through. The treatment I got was impersonal and inconsiderate. It was a very traumatic time for me.
This led me to look for FSBC's in my state. There were two, both 2-3 hrs from me. I chose one based on my knowledge at the time. IMO, my then CNM was very interventionist minded. Internal exams at each appt, offering to strip my membranes, ect. And the labor! Being checked every hour during contrax, pushing on my back, ect. I thought because I had chosen a FSBC and CNM that I was getting a "natural birth".
I was dissatisfied with that birth, but felt that it was either that, the local hospital, or a lay MW that I was not comfortable with. So I went back for my second child to the FSBC that was 3 hrs away. It was inconvenient and not exactly what I wanted, but I thought it was my best option.
In labor, I called my MW (I was staying in that area with family) saying I felt like I needed to come in and she stalled. And stalled. And stalled. (She had just finished a birth and I think wanted some down time in between.) I finally got her to consent to meet me after she showered in an hour or so. 15 minutes later I told DH to call her and tell her we were coming NOW. We were 20 minutes from the FSBC.
I delivered en route on a noisy off ramp of the I-10. (Five minutes away) Was taken to a hospital where they refused to let my dd leave. They said if I left with her they would report me to CPS. We stayed under duress. The nurses were very condescending because I had opted out of certain testing during pregnancy, vax's for baby, and we delivered in an "unsterile" environment. They then proceeded to charge us for a full labor and delivery + 48 hr stay!
For the next two years I worried about what to do once I was pregnant with our third...where would I go? Is homebirth something I want to consider? Could I find a MW who would travel? (As at this point there were no MWs in our area at all.)
Once we decided to have our third, things just fell into place. 3 separate people rec'd a MW out of a city 2 hrs away. I called her, we talked, we scheduled a meet up and it all clicked.
My sister who used the same FSBC disliked her experience there and went the local hospital route, but choosing to show up just in time to push.
Childbirth is a journey. I would never have HB'd had I not had that first miscarriage and then later delivered in my truck. I thought a FSBC would be the best of both worlds. Obviously, for me, it wasn't. It took much reading, praying, discussing, ect to get to that point for me and I came from a very natural minded family! My parents had wanted HB but it had never worked out due to premature babies and placenta previa.
I am now planning my second HB for sometime in August and don't want to ever do it any other way. My sister is adamantly opposed to HB for herself. Similar life experiences, different choices; both informed. I have times when I cannot understand her opposition, when even her husband would be for it. I am sure she is the same with my choices.
I agree that what happened to the woman in the article is horrendous! I was so angry for her! I was also angry at the OB who said that a birth plan raises the likelihood for a c section. I think my main complaint with the article was not her opinion, but that others might take the fact that it was printed in the media to mean that her opinion was fact.
Who knows? A few years or babies down the road she may find herself open to HB. Like I said, childbirth is a journey...


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5* 
Dh and I were just talking about how Time magazine has done this a couple times lately, presenting an opinion piece as an article.

Not just Time. Look at the recent anti-bf articles in Redbook and such. It's disgusting!

I'm on both sides of the opinion here. I do think we have some responsibility, but honestly there are SO many variables. I had a myomectomy and have had to fight tooth and nail to have vaginal births. _I don't know one single person to have a vaginal delivery after myomectomy besides myself-on MDC, even. If you have, then we should start a tribe!_ I had to bring up a lawsuit, even, when I was barely even pregnant. During labor I had to fight the entire time against a c/section or an epidural. I didn't have much support but luckily my mother was there to tell them I will NOT have a c-section. I vaguely mentioned wanting drugs after 20 hours of hard labor and was given nubain before I had a chance to tell them I wasn't serious. There was never a time when anything was presented to me as my choice. I took childbirth classes, breastfeeding classes, parenting classes. Never was anything presented as a choice-you circ so your child doesn't get HIV, you do what your doc says so your baby doesn't die, you vax so they don't call CPS, you lay down flat and be quiet because that is what good patients do. It was horrible. After 3 hours of pushing, my doc gave me a numbing shot for an episiotomy and luckily I became lucid enough to see the scalpel and say the word "lawyer" and she stopped before she cut. That was pure luck. Even though I had stated numerous times NO episiotomy at all. For any reason.

With my son, I was told my uterus would rupture and my child and I would die because he was "huge" and my first was large at 8 lbs. 1 oz. There was no way I could physically birth them. I was a single mom with a 1 year old. I worked at the hospital and knew better than to question them or their anger would arise. I wasn't given a choice-just a time and date to be there and do what they told me. I should have known better. I should have magically found money for support or a doula or something. I should have researched (with magical internet I didn't have and money I certainly did not have). I should have said no. Instead I was yelled at for being a wuss while they messed up my intrathecal twice. Then the nurse pushed my son back into me to wait for the doc to get in the room. Afterwards I had my placenta manually extracted seconds after we came out as standard protocol. This wasn't choice-they were up to their elbows before you even realized it. My son was early and had neurological and digestive delays because of their mistakes. My mistakes for trusting them.

I had one person (ever) tell me that it was my fault. That smart women have easy births and nothing goes wrong. Don't want an episiotomy? Tell them. If you're proactive and informed nothing will go wrong. I found that incredibly insulting. Things can always go wrong and there are always variables. My surgical history, like VBACs put me in a different category as your average woman who goes in in labor. Just because of the word-not because of the facts. It could depend on the mood of your nurse or doc, administrative changes, quotas, finances, insurance, that particular nurse, anything. To say that you can just call up the head of OB and explain to them that you'll have a fine VBAC and all will be dandy is absurd. To tell me that I deserved to hemorrhage and have a seizure because I didn't fight after a traumatic birth to prevent them from pulling my placenta out is very insulting and wrong. So I feel sorry for the author. I think we all need to be educated and I believe her presentation is insulting to a lot of people, but I do feel sorry for her and don't believe it's entirely her fault at all.


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## SilverFish (Jan 14, 2010)

i don't really have a lot of sympathy for this woman. on a personal level i am sad that she was traumatized in that way, and if she was my friend, i would do my best to be there for her in a kind and caring way after that event. but, i really don't like her attitude in writing this piece.

she went into birth without any idea of what might happen. she equates being educated and prepared for birth with thinking that aromatherapy and labour chants will ward off any danger. i'm sorry, that's bullsh*t! birth is like getting dropped off in the middle of the yukon wilderness. the most prepared person in the world could still end up in serious danger and in need of a helicopter rescue, but wouldn't they be more likely to survive the experience than someone who doesn't have a knife, doesn't know how to build a fire, doesn't know how to avoid a bear attack? knowing those things doesn't mean you are wearing a magic amulet, but it is sure better that not knowing anything.

the information is there. if she were uneducated, disadvantaged, very young, not living in the developed world, i would most definitely cut her some slack. but she is quite clearly not any of those things. she knows how to use a computer, she is obviously literate. she's heard or read all the information out there... if she's not interested in believing it, than i can't really help her.

i don't like how women from both sides (natural and medical models) tend to criticize or judge another woman's experience. unless you were the woman or the care provider there, it's impossible to know what might have changed the circumstances. i hate that people did it to her (especially those doulas) but she's also doing it to others.

basically, i think it's criminal that something so traumatic and abusive happened to her. i hate that any woman ever feels out of control, demeaned, or damaged by her birth. but i don't feel like i should have much sympathy for someone who doesn't educate themselves on a known event, is surprised when the event doesn't meet her expectations, and then gets offended when people ask her why she didn't prepare for the event in question.


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## SilverFish (Jan 14, 2010)

oh, and i agree that the doctor is the worst kind of scum out there and shouldn't really be allowed anywhere near another woman. but she herself doesn't seem to see that this doctor was an anomaly. most doctors, even the most medically minded OBs, would not consider holding a woman down and breaking her water while she screamed at them to stop to be good practice. and it is perfectly possible to have a non-traumatic birth that is also very medically managed. i know lots of people that have done it, including emergency c-sections.

if this piece were just about her traumatic experience and her struggle to recover, i would not for a second think about "blaming the victim." but where she goes beyond her own personal experiences and starts poohpoohing NCB, all the while determined not to repeat the last experience is where she loses me.


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## caned & able (Dec 8, 2005)

Did you read the comments following that article?

The natural childbirth movement has been around since the 1950s with Grantley-Read, Leboyer, Lamaze, Bradley, and the back to nature movement. The first pioneers are grandmothers or greatgrandmothers now. The hippies are grandmothers who are featured in the book Spiritual Midwifery, so the news has been out there for decades.

Those who cannot learn from the mistakes of the past will have to repeat them. The natural childbirth movement at least should have made women aware of their options when their time to deliver comes.

Please, we all have choices!

When one makes not choice, that is a choice...


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## MsBlack (Apr 10, 2007)

Thank you for saying that!


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## lunamegn (Nov 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Hannah32* 
I'm a big believer in bodily integrity and the right to make one's own decisions. Therefore, I support a woman's right to do whatever she wants regarding childbirth.

However, I see what the author meant by that quote. I'm not a doctor. I didn't go to medical school. So, no, I didn't feel qualified at my own birth to present a "plan," because how much did I really know about the various risks? And I gotta say, for me, reading Ina May's book didn't really give me everything I needed. That's just me though, and I completely support those who feel that they can learn everything they need to know from NCB literature. But for me it didn't make me feel like I could tell my doctor what should happen. So I basically did what she said. And it turned out really well for me, which creates a bias in my mind, based on my own experience.

The key here is that I did have a good doctor. The doctor described in the article was terrible! Just an awful way to treat someone.....

I see your point. But I don't necessarily agree. I definitely read more than Ina May's book before my births. I read as much as I could get my hands on. It's not about telling the doctor what should happen, it's about having control to a certain extent of your body, birth, and baby. The things that she went through in this article essay, telling the doctor to "get off of me" - she was out of control of her situation. Why aren't women capable of at least helping to dictate their own births? To me it would be like overriding my intuition. The woman clearly felt something was not right when the doctor went in to break her water against her wishes - was she not supposed to voice her concern or opposition? I do believe in having a mutually respecting relationship between a woman and the professional (should she chose one) she has hired to care for her and her child. It made me sad that she felt she was she felt she should not have a choice or say in her own body and birth.


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## MittensKittens (Oct 26, 2008)

Right! Besides, an OB who breaks a woman's water when he says he is merely carrying out a vaginal exam is not just offering his "expert knowledge" as a service, he is being entirely deceptive. It that had happened to me, I would have sued.


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## sheashea (Aug 28, 2008)

I'm totally in the non judgement camp. And I'm NOT coming from a traumatized place; in fact I can't relate to this woman's story at all. I grew up with a mother who conducted lamaze classes out of our family home. I practiced the hypnobirthing method and had a very satisfying first birth in the presence of midwives.

The point that we should be focusing on is that what the OB did was wrong. He did not respect the mother, violated her body and seized control of the birth basically by lying to her. His actions caused physical and psychological harm. She wrote about her experience and by doing so, she is spreading the word that some OBs will treat labouring women as she was treated. Whether or not you agree with her take on the NCB community, she is telling her story and informing women who may be in a similar situation (brought up to believe that a hospital birth with an OB at the helm is the only safe, responsible model of birth) that the mainstream approach can be violating and traumatic.

Because of her article, more women may demand that their OB refrain from conducting ANY procedure without telling them in advance what it is and why. They may be more discerning about the OB they choose. While she is probably not helping the cause of encouraging more women towards NCB, trotting out stereotypes for which she can be validly critiqued, by disseminating her story she is nevertheless whittling away at the institutionalized control and impunity that some OBs have chosen to exploit.

Women are brainwashed to judge and blame one another, particularly around issues of pregnancy, childbirth and child rearing. This is absolutely a feminist issue. I agree with the poster who commented that in the case of date-rape, we unequivocally blame the attacker - not the woman for failing to attend the last wen-do workshop. It also strikes me that this woman has been trying to educate herself about childbirth to ensure that her next birth experience is more positive. Just because the messaging she has received from the NCB community has not resonated with her, does not mean that she is choosing to persist in ignorance or that she hasn't "cracked the spine" of any books. Dismissing her comments as "dumb" or "uninformed," to me conveys a certain unwillingness to take responsibility on behalf of the NCB community, to which most of us belong/advocate.

She makes a valid point that the patriarchy-serving practice of women policing women persists in the NCB community, as well as in the mainstream community. That is something that proponents of NCB _should_ be willing to acknowledge and address. It _does_ alienate many women and conveniently distracts our attention from the real issue, which is the disempowering and unsound methods of the medical model.

I refuse to sign up to the belief that we can only effect political change through our personal choices, a view that effectively undermines political organizing and reduces us all to "consumers" who make good or bad choices. By this logic, if the cleaning products you use in your home for 20 years turn out to be carcinogenic, its your fault for buying in to the ads and not being informed enough, savvy enough, critical enough... again, how perfectly convenient (for the chemical lobby, anyway.)

Only when we stop blaming one another will we truly be able to build a community that supports women.


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## texmati (Oct 19, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Marilyn82* 
Eh, I tend to think we need to cut mama a break. I can understand being aggravated by some of her statements, but being wrong about the NCB community and not having done as much reading/educating/homework or whatever, does not mean she deserved to suffer the kind of dehumanizing/traumatizing treatment she received. Not saying that anyone here is saying she deserved it or anything...just making the point that regardless of her views or level of understanding/acceptance...it's incredibly sad that she ended up with such extreme mistreatment.

very well said... I couldn't even get through the entire article.


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## Joyster (Oct 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sheashea* 
I'm totally in the non judgement camp. And I'm NOT coming from a traumatized place; in fact I can't relate to this woman's story at all. I grew up with a mother who conducted lamaze classes out of our family home. I practiced the hypnobirthing method and had a very satisfying first birth in the presence of midwives.

The point that we should be focusing on is that what the OB did was wrong. He did not respect the mother, violated her body and seized control of the birth basically by lying to her. His actions caused physical and psychological harm. She wrote about her experience and by doing so, she is spreading the word that some OBs will treat labouring women as she was treated. Whether or not you agree with her take on the NCB community, she is telling her story and informing women who may be in a similar situation (brought up to believe that a hospital birth with an OB at the helm is the only safe, responsible model of birth) that the mainstream approach can be violating and traumatic.

Because of her article, more women may demand that their OB refrain from conducting ANY procedure without telling them in advance what it is and why. They may be more discerning about the OB they choose. While she is probably not helping the cause of encouraging more women towards NCB, trotting out stereotypes for which she can be validly critiqued, by disseminating her story she is nevertheless whittling away at the institutionalized control and impunity that some OBs have chosen to exploit.

Women are brainwashed to judge and blame one another, particularly around issues of pregnancy, childbirth and child rearing. This is absolutely a feminist issue. I agree with the poster who commented that in the case of date-rape, we unequivocally blame the attacker - not the woman for failing to attend the last wen-do workshop. It also strikes me that this woman has been trying to educate herself about childbirth to ensure that her next birth experience is more positive. Just because the messaging she has received from the NCB community has not resonated with her, does not mean that she is choosing to persist in ignorance or that she hasn't "cracked the spine" of any books. Dismissing her comments as "dumb" or "uninformed," to me conveys a certain unwillingness to take responsibility on behalf of the NCB community, to which most of us belong/advocate.

She makes a valid point that the patriarchy-serving practice of women policing women persists in the NCB community, as well as in the mainstream community. That is something that proponents of NCB _should_ be willing to acknowledge and address. It _does_ alienate many women and conveniently distracts our attention from the real issue, which is the disempowering and unsound methods of the medical model.

I refuse to sign up to the belief that we can only effect political change through our personal choices, a view that effectively undermines political organizing and reduces us all to "consumers" who make good or bad choices. By this logic, if the cleaning products you use in your home for 20 years turn out to be carcinogenic, its your fault for buying in to the ads and not being informed enough, savvy enough, critical enough... again, how perfectly convenient (for the chemical lobby, anyway.)

Only when we stop blaming one another will we truly be able to build a community that supports women.

Wowee, love your post. Torontonians are so smart. Not that I'm biased or anything.


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## MyFillingQuiver (Sep 7, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sheashea* 

I refuse to sign up to the belief that we can only effect political change through our personal choices, a view that effectively undermines political organizing and reduces us all to "consumers" who make good or bad choices. By this logic, if the cleaning products you use in your home for 20 years turn out to be carcinogenic, its your fault for buying in to the ads and not being informed enough, savvy enough, critical enough... again, how perfectly convenient (for the chemical lobby, anyway.)

Only when we stop blaming one another will we truly be able to build a community that supports women.

I agree with most of what you said in your post. However, the part quoted above, depends on what a persons take is on effecting change. I come from a different perspective than you do, in that I believe in independent choices. I want the solo responsibility and ability to make choices for myself and my family. I do not want groups effecting change on my behalf. This is the very reason we have the medical establishment controlling birth! Women gave over their individual responsibility and autonomy to a group _that collectively decides_ the medical model of care. Now we wish to gather up together with one another and change that. While that would be fab and all, the truth is _the majority of women do not wish to change_ the medical model. It's what they believe is safest and best.

It's only those who decide to independently think outside what they are "sold" as "normal" to see what will be best for them. I do not want my choices made for me (the example you pointed out) in cleaning products under the idea that "I couldn't possibly decide for myself without help" because I'm too swayed by marketing. I want the choice to choose what I want to choose, and the responsibility for the usage lies on me-not the manufacturers. I don't believe for one minute that as an intelligent adult, I need to have choices limited by group decisions on my behalf to choose wisely.

For some women, this will be the medical model of care. They should have that right. Then, if/when they are dissatisfied with the treatment, they should have the right to birth independently from the medical community. This again comes down to education, personal responsibility and choosing a care provider who respects women.


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## sheashea (Aug 28, 2008)

I think that you have misunderstood me. I am not suggesting that people don't have the right to make independent choices, nor that they are unable to do so without being told what to think/do by activist groups. Rather, I am suggesting that it is ineffective and counterproductive to blame other people for _not_ having the wisdom to reject what is being sold to them that *I* have. And I do think that in democratic societies we have a collective responsibility to question manufacturers, big business and lobby groups who knowingly market toxins. You are playing into their hands if you suggest that the onus is completely on individual consumers. I think that these companies should be held accountable, just as I think that the medical model will be more accountable if more people feel they can stand up and express outrage at the kind of treatment described in the article.


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