# Am I the only one who spanks her dog but not her kid?



## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Since becoming a parent, I became a whole lot less patient with our two family dogs. And a lot less attentive too, which has been discussed on other threads.

I'm a lifetime animal freak and our dogs are part of our family. Sleep on our bed, act like one of the kids, the whole thing. But I noticed that since dd arrived, I'm so much more short tempered with them. Somewhere along the way I realized that when I'm especially mad there've been a couple of times that I've swatted their haunches.

Like yesterday one dog jumped up and got a sandwich I'd just made, carried it into the living room and ate it. I used to be able to leave my food on the coffee table at eye level while I left the room to go answer the phone, and when I came back they'd be sitting there staring at it and it would be untouched. Now they act up a lot more, I think as a reaction to the relative neglect since dd came.

Anyway I ran over to get the sandwich remains, scolded the dog and swatted him once on the haunches. More just because of my anger than because of any delusion that it taught the dog anything. Dd's nanny was there and I embarrassedly commented that I must be the only mother she knew who spanked her dog but didn't allow her kids to be spanked.

She laughed and said "yeah, and I also noticed that dd pretty much does what you ask her to and the dogs don't"









Another testimony to the effectiveness of spanking







.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

So are you going to stop hitting the dogs now?


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## Kylix (May 3, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
So are you going to stop hitting the dogs now?

Yes, are you?


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## Genesis (Jan 8, 2007)




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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Interestingly those replies do absolutely nothing to motivate me to work harder on self control. In fact, they make me feel the complete opposite: irritated with the implied judgment and defensive that more is being made of the situation than there really is.

Might be something to think about if you find yourself in a situation with a parent struggling with spanking her child.

At least my presumption is that you intend for your reponses to be helpful and to have a positive effect toward improving the situation.


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## MadysonMom (Mar 15, 2007)

I was just talking to my mom about this the other day. I have three dogs and have become much less patient since DD was born. I have spanked them and the other day my mom laughed and said look Madyson the dogs are getting a spanking. Thats what made me realize I did not want my DD to see anyone or anthing getting hit. I dont want her to think its ok for her to hit the dogs when she gets older. I need to practice the same self control with the dogs that I do with her.

I always find it amuzing that everything I talk about at home always come up in a thread a few days later. Its nice to relate to others and know your not crazy sometimes.


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## ShaggyDaddy (Jul 5, 2006)

I am not talking about beating dogs or anything like that, and neither are you, but I just wanted to point out a pitfall when raising dogs.

DW and I have always been really great with kids, never really had much of a problem with child care, or dealing with challenges with kids.

Ok so then we got a dog. The _worst_ behaved dog to ever walk the planet. Nothing worked for this dog, NOTHING.

Then we read a site about dog training that gave us an "oh duh" moment when she was about 4-5 years old.

The goal of raising a child is COMPLETELY different from the goal of raising a dog. You want a child to grow into a decision making, independant, individual. You want a dog to become a subservient member of your pack, who looks to you or other Alpha members of the pack for every decision. You provide the food, leadership, and safety, and your dog provides support, protection, and obedience.

It seems almost cruel, untill you start actung like a true alpha dog/pack leader.
There is no rage, physical punnishments are instant, reactive, and are instantly forgotten. An alpha dog will not bite a disobedient subordinate over and over again until they stop the activity. They will give them a quick bite and then let them know, with afection that they are still welcome in the pack. The disobedient does not have to sulk, they are not confused, they just fall back in line.

Rage, screaming, and inconsistant behaver encourage the lesser members of the pack to start a struggle for dominance. In the wild, if the leader is behaving in such a way that his/her behavior is unpredictable, and inconsistant, it is the DUTY and the Instinct of each member to prove that they would be a better leader. Every time you scream, or lose control to your dog, the only thing they hear is "Well, this pack needs a new leader".

Correction in an animal can be something physical that is uncomfortable, in my opinion, this is natural. It is what they expect, it is what they thrive on. Watch caesar millan (dog whisperer). He does a very non-aggressive, non-rage physical correction where he kind of strikes with the tips of his fingers to simulate a "warning bite" from a true alpha dog. Dogs communicate with physical roughness. Humans can communicate with words.

I think to try to use the same strategy for a dog and a child you will just end up with a confused "misbehaved" dog. (that was certainly the case for us) Once I started acting like an alpha dog, instead of a crazy person, the dog was calmer, better behaved, and overall much more fun to be around. The best news is that since the dog's instinct is to struggle for dominance in the absence of an Alpha... you can take control ANY time, no matter how old the dog or how long you have been doing what you have been doing.


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## becoming (Apr 11, 2003)

I couldn't believe how much less patient I became with animals after my first child was born! I used to consider myself a "dog person," and now I'm not at all.

Yeah, I don't think it's great for your child to see you spanking the dogs, but man, the sandwich incident would have really gotten to me, too!


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## goodygumdrops (Jan 25, 2007)

I understand how your feeling. I have a dog and now 3 cats(need to change my siggy).
Since my son was born I have been more and more frustrated with the animals. My dog is a rescue who now feels the need to go potty in the house whenever she wants. At first, I just blamed myself for not training her properly and didn't yell or spank. But then I went through a phase where I thought that maybe I should swat her....and it did not work at all. Basically, now she goes potty in the house and is scared I'm going to swat her...eerrrr.

So, at this point I've decided that I am going to hire a trainer. I need to fix this problem and I honestly have no more patience for it. It's funny how most training books explain how hitting is not the way to train an animal but parents think it's ok to do this to their children. Weird.


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## Genesis (Jan 8, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Interestingly those replies do absolutely nothing to motivate me to work harder on self control. In fact, they make me feel the complete opposite: irritated with the implied judgment and defensive that more is being made of the situation than there really is.

Might be something to think about if you find yourself in a situation with a parent struggling with spanking her child.

At least my presumption is that you intend for your reponses to be helpful and to have a positive effect toward improving the situation.

blessed, just to clarify, MY response was in confusion to kylix's post, I thought she was directing that question at Roar for some reason, and I didn't understand why.







: I am just not with it today.









No judgement coming from me. I find my that my 2 cats as much as I love them, are a lot more annoying since I had DS!


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## veg n mama (Aug 29, 2007)

so maybe you can stop spanking doggy now!!!







:


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## mzfern (Nov 16, 2004)

SD, your post is excellent -- thanks for sharing your insights.


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

i'm the total opposite. i never even think about hitting my little dog (3rd child), but i have been tempted to spank my 2 kids at times!!!!







but don't worry mamas - i don't hit any of um'


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## beanma (Jan 6, 2002)

i could see me doing that with "the sandwich incident", too. i don't usually let it out on the dogs, but i did holler greatly at our younger pup the other day when i was feeling exceptionally frustrated. i talked to the kids about it afterwards, but really i was happy that i didn't yell at them.

if you're looking for a funny light good dog read, you might pick up "Marley & Me: life and love with the world's worst dog" by josh groban. it made me feel much more loving toward our mutts even when they bark and generally cause a ruckus.


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

From what I've read, letting dogs in beds is a no-no, unless you have a dog that has not an ounce of dominance in it. It sends a message that they are equal to you, which sounds good to humans, but to dogs it's confusing. And can lead to unwanted and/or agressive behavior. (something like that)
And walking through the door first- you should go through first. I don't make Shiloh wait for me, because she's one of those way submissive dogs. It's just easier to let her go first.

I'm not going to tell you about how bad it is to hit dogs, cuz I'm guessing you know.

Have you heard about "nothing in life is free"? Dogs really are happier when they have work to do!
http://www.k9deb.com/nilif.htm


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Deva33mommy* 
From what I've read, letting dogs in beds is a no-no, unless you have a dog that has not an ounce of dominance in it. It sends a message that they are equal to you, which sounds good to humans, but to dogs it's confusing. [/url]


ha ha, i totally agree with this!!!! my dog does sleep in bed with me ....under the covers even (she's a little jack russell terrier) and she is definitely very confused! she has NO idea she's a dog. and to make matters worse, i buy her clothes in the winter to confuse her that much more! my husband won't acknowledge her though when she's wearing a halloween costume or a jacket.

she literally sitting on my lap as i'm typing!


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

See, that's the thing with cats. When they are driving me up the wall, I drug them up with catnip and they don't bother me for a while.

I do love dogs but I think I would have trouble dealing with one right now.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Our dogs are great, really. They're both six years old and we've had them since puppyhood. They're completely submissive to everyone in the family, including dd, thank goodness. One is part chow and has some aggression to strangers. We were worried about what would happen when dd arrived. But she climbs on him, pulls his ears, takes food literally out of his mouth while he's eating, and he wags his tail and licks her. He obviously adores her.

I'm not surprised the pups are acting out some these days, since they get about one tenth of the attention they used to get. They're actually very well trained. The fact that he slipped and ate a cornbeef sandwich that I left within easy reach when no one was looking is probably more a testament to my own shortcoming than his. It takes a pretty disciplined dog to pass that test, and his motivations aren't very well supported these days







.


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## mommy2abigail (Aug 20, 2005)

ITA with ShaggyDaddy. Dogs are not people. This coming from a former dog rescuer. I LOVE dogs, but to treat them in the same way you treat a child is not natural.


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## ShaggyDaddy (Jul 5, 2006)

had you already eaten part of the sandwich, or were you eating as you made it? If so, then this is typical pack behavior, A leader is done with the food, my turn. In either case, I think it would be important to start thinking more like an alpha on food matters. Assign them to eat, when you pour food, instruct them to eat it. If they always have food out, make it a point to take the bowl away during meal times, and replace them once the family is done eating. If they eat table scraps (which does not hurt alpha status in my opinion) make sure if they try to instigate table scraps with begging or stealing, the scraps stop for the night and they are not allowed to eat (even dog food) untill everyone else is done. These are pack behaviors that are important in setting up feeding rank. The last thing you want is some big dogs that feel like they should get to eat FIRST.

The most important action, the one you are struggling with is what to do when it happens. In my opinion this is what you should do: Reprimand the dog with a push (physical relocation to allow you access to YOUR food or a snap, like a warning bite). Take whatever portion of the food is left back to the kitchen. DO NOT decide that you just won't eat. It is important that you eat SOMETHING after this display so that the dog can understand that the alpha was not done eating, and that was the problem. After you are done eating your replacement snack/meal. Take the dogs to their food and tell them they can eat this. Walk away.

Of course sometimes we have no time for this, you can easily shorten it, just keep the alpha mentallity and you can't really go wrong, because the dogs do not have any desire to question a true alpha's decision.


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## AngelBee (Sep 8, 2004)

:


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## nascarbebe (Nov 4, 2006)

We have a dog and it took her a while to get used to a new baby. As long as we let her out to pee, fed her at regular times, and take her out walking she's fine. It didn't take long for her to figure out that she had moved to the bottom of priorities. Our dog is a greyhound and probably sleeps about 20 hrs/day. Greyhounds are huge couch potatoes, when they're not running they're napping. I've never hit her or my child. I would feel like crap if I did.

My only suggestion is to try to keep your dog on a regular schedule and take it out walking as much as possible. I try to walk our dog everyday, or at least 5 times a week an she loves that. I've mastered managing the stroller and dog on walks.


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

A big







: to SD. I would never physically correct my cats unless you count holding them by the back of their neck skin to cut their nails (which vets even do). But dogs are a *completely* different breed and need completely different rules and discipline. Mine is driving me up the wall because we are all cramped in here. She's never stolen my food, but I think I would go hoarse from screeching if she did.


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## snowmom11 (Feb 16, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
So are you going to stop hitting the dogs now?

Is this kind of response really helpful? It seems awfully snotty to me. She obviously realized that she had made a mistake.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *snowmom11* 
Is this kind of response really helpful? It seems awfully snotty to me. She obviously realized that she had made a mistake.

I had to quit looking at it. It made me want to beat my dog







:.


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## chfriend (Aug 29, 2002)

I have no opinion on how folks train their dogs...but I loved reading about the monks at New Skete and their dog training program. It's got DVDs and everything....

http://www.dogsbestfriend.com/puppies/dg.html


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
I had to quit looking at it. It made me want to beat my dog







:.




















I have to hand it to you blessed, you have brass ovaries to post some of the stuff you do here! Bravo.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

Wow yeah, let's condemn hitting people but advocate and share our dog-hitting stories!

Awesome!

Quote:

Interestingly those replies do absolutely nothing to motivate me to work harder on self control. In fact, they make me feel the complete opposite:
Personal accountability is a wonderful thing. No one else chooses to hit your dog or chooses to stop hitting your dog but YOU.

I am not an advocate for physical force on ANY being, dog or child or adult or anyone who lives and breathes unless it is an unquestionable act of self defense.

In all this talk about the "natural" behaviors of dogs -- newsflash: dogs like food.


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## ShaggyDaddy (Jul 5, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
In all this talk about the "natural" behaviors of dogs -- newsflash: dogs like food.

I am not trying to argue, I don't think hitting dogs is right, but I do feel communicating on their level is apropriate. Dogs like order and a chain of command MORE than they like food, seriously.


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## captain crunchy (Mar 29, 2005)

I haven't observed many pack dogs smacking eachother's @sses lately either so....


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## heartmama (Nov 27, 2001)

Hmmmm---I'm not sure where to go with this thread--let's just be mindful that this was posted in the GD forum. It sounds like the OP has lost her temper with the dogs and is looking for help with that issue. If you want to discuss dog training that really needs to happen in the Pets forum.


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## ShaggyDaddy (Jul 5, 2006)

oops


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

blessed, I went through the same thing with my dogs. I felt really bad about it, but their status definitely suffered when DS came along.

One of our dogs in particular wasn't that great with kids, and he was extremely noisy so it seemed like he was always waking the baby. I would just get DS to sleep and then the frenzied maniacal barking would start if someone had the bad sense to ring our doorbell (and our doorbell range a lot because ex-H had a business out of the home). Sigh.

I was able to curtail my bad behavior when DS started to become aware of my actions (or at least I perceived he did) because I was kind of embarrassed. But the dogs never regained their previous status, in terms of me feeling loving and affectionate toward them. I guess my heart coldly decided what its priorities were, whether I wanted it to or not.

Hope you're able to find a good middle ground, mama.


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## s_kristina (Aug 9, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chfriend* 
I have no opinion on how folks train their dogs...but I loved reading about the monks at New Skete and their dog training program. It's got DVDs and everything....

http://www.dogsbestfriend.com/puppies/dg.html

I don't know if it is still on, but they did have a show on Animal Planet that I loved to watch. They are very much in to making sure the dogs know who is the alpha in the pack. They also have dogs living all over their monastery, it looks like a pretty cool place!


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 









I have to hand it to you blessed, you have brass ovaries to post some of the stuff you do here! Bravo.

Thanks! I like to keep things lively







:


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## woobysma (Apr 20, 2004)

Not to get too much into dog training, but I wanted to second all of SD's posts. I've also read that, in packs, it's the Beta Male who takes on babysitting duties with the pups. So, that's where you want your dog to be if you have kids, especially.

As for our dogs, we find that non-physical repremands are just as effective as physical ones (and we have spanked our dogs in the past, but are trying to avoid that now). A quick, firm NO and "the look" will usually get an immediate submissive "I'm sorry" pose from them.


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
I haven't observed many pack dogs smacking eachother's @sses lately either so....

No, but they do bite and make each other submit physically. It depends on the pack structure and the dogs.

Noone is saying to beat your dogs by any means. In fact, hurting them out of anger will make them lose respect for you-they don't want an unstable leader. But teaching them a lesson with tried methods that don't maim them (like the play bite Ceasar does) is a different issue.

How is any of this sharing and advocating dog hitting?


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *woobysma* 
I've also read that, in packs, it's the Beta Male who takes on babysitting duties with the pups. So, that's where you want your dog to be if you have kids, especially.

Sorry to contribute to the off-topic part of this thread, but whoa! I would never want my dog thinking that she ranked above my kids in our family dynamic. She is the lowest man on the totem pole -- she's the _beloved_ lowest man on the totem pole, but the lowest nonetheless.

If she thought she were second-in-command, wouldn't that mean she'd feel justified in "correcting" my kids' behavior, possibly through nips and the like? I would never want to encourage that.

We already have our 2yo give our dog commands and then give her a treat, have him fill her dog dish, we feed him before her, etc., specifically to send her the message that he ranks above her and that just because she's bigger than him does not mean that she has more power in the "pack."


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## Violet2 (Apr 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShaggyDaddy* 
I am not talking about beating dogs or anything like that, and neither are you, but I just wanted to point out a pitfall when raising dogs.

DW and I have always been really great with kids, never really had much of a problem with child care, or dealing with challenges with kids.

Ok so then we got a dog. The _worst_ behaved dog to ever walk the planet. Nothing worked for this dog, NOTHING.

Then we read a site about dog training that gave us an "oh duh" moment when she was about 4-5 years old.

The goal of raising a child is COMPLETELY different from the goal of raising a dog. You want a child to grow into a decision making, independant, individual. You want a dog to become a subservient member of your pack, who looks to you or other Alpha members of the pack for every decision. You provide the food, leadership, and safety, and your dog provides support, protection, and obedience.

It seems almost cruel, untill you start actung like a true alpha dog/pack leader.
There is no rage, physical punnishments are instant, reactive, and are instantly forgotten. An alpha dog will not bite a disobedient subordinate over and over again until they stop the activity. They will give them a quick bite and then let them know, with afection that they are still welcome in the pack. The disobedient does not have to sulk, they are not confused, they just fall back in line.

Rage, screaming, and inconsistant behaver encourage the lesser members of the pack to start a struggle for dominance. In the wild, if the leader is behaving in such a way that his/her behavior is unpredictable, and inconsistant, it is the DUTY and the Instinct of each member to prove that they would be a better leader. Every time you scream, or lose control to your dog, the only thing they hear is "Well, this pack needs a new leader".

Correction in an animal can be something physical that is uncomfortable, in my opinion, this is natural. It is what they expect, it is what they thrive on. Watch caesar millan (dog whisperer). He does a very non-aggressive, non-rage physical correction where he kind of strikes with the tips of his fingers to simulate a "warning bite" from a true alpha dog. Dogs communicate with physical roughness. Humans can communicate with words.

I think to try to use the same strategy for a dog and a child you will just end up with a confused "misbehaved" dog. (that was certainly the case for us) Once I started acting like an alpha dog, instead of a crazy person, the dog was calmer, better behaved, and overall much more fun to be around. The best news is that since the dog's instinct is to struggle for dominance in the absence of an Alpha... you can take control ANY time, no matter how old the dog or how long you have been doing what you have been doing.

The above is really excellent advice with a lot of insight. Dogs are not humans and can't reason like humans. To expect to GD a dog is, imo, unfair to the dog.

In my house, we do an underchin smack correction that our trainer uses. The goal is to provide discipline and make it instructive, never to hit in anger. It's when emotions, rather than the goal of teaching a lesson, are driving the hitting that I think it can cross a line. My DH struggles with this with the dogs and I often have to remind him that discipline (for dogs) should always be corrective feedback, not punishment.

We also recognize when bad behavior is our fault and we don't go around smacking our dogs 24/7. For instance, a gust of wind trapped our black lab in the bathroom for several hours while we were out and she shredded an entire roll of toilet paper. We figured, if we'd been in her 'paws' we'd probably have done the same thing and cleaned it up without a word. If we leave things out where the dogs can get to them, we count that as being our fault. Dogs are dogs and they know the rules, but can't be relied on to adhere to them 100%.

So, the lesson for the OP is most likely that you can't trust your pups like you used to. They'll give in to temptation. Do what you can to avoid these situations all together and work on ensuring you have a healthy pack structure with your pups.

And don't worry that you've done any irreparable harm to the dogs. Their psyches are just fine.

All that being said, I do think the fact that dogs can be 'spanked' and children aren't could raise some interesting parenting conundrums as we try to teach our children what is and isn't appropriate. It's something I'll have to think about myself.

V


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Well, I certainly spank my dogs. I also spank the horses and the chickens (gently, but it helps them with their pecking order if I do). I actually don't "spank" the dogs as much as whack them on the nose. Though once my dog growled at my dc and I gave him a spanking.

Same thing as ShaggyDaddy said, they like to know where they are in the order. If they don't know, they challenge you. And then what? How is that kind? A dog challenges the order by biting, and would most likely start by biting a child. A dog that bites a child has to be euthanized. Doesn't sound like responsible dog ownership to me.

Anyway, I also call the dogs "bad" and "good", scold them, and put them outside when they're obnoxious. I don't do this to my dc, and I think that they can figure out the difference.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Violet2* 
We also recognize when bad behavior is our fault and we don't go around smacking our dogs 24/7. For instance, a gust of wind trapped our black lab in the bathroom for several hours while we were out and she shredded an entire roll of toilet paper. We figured, if we'd been in her 'paws' we'd probably have done the same thing and cleaned it up without a word. If we leave things out where the dogs can get to them, we count that as being our fault. Dogs are dogs and they know the rules, but can't be relied on to adhere to them 100%.

My dog has destroyed things while we were out, and then my dh always insists that he knows he did something wrong. Yeah, right.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

I haven't used spanking or hitting with my dogs, except as where I described above in which I did it out of anger rather than as training.

If I'm using intimidation to teach - which may be only necessary a handful of times early on during puppyhood to establish hierachy, and in the cases of some sensitive dogs, not at all - I stand over the pup, grab their scruff with my hand and speak with a tone of reprobation and disapproval. Eventually, just a disapproving tone in your voice will be all it takes.


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## Fuamami (Mar 16, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
If I'm using intimidation to teach - which may be only necessary a handful of times early on during puppyhood to establish hierachy, and in the cases of some sensitive dogs, not at all - I stand over the pup, grab their scruff with my hand and speak with a tone of reprobation and disapproval. Eventually, just a disapproving tone in your voice will be all it takes.

Yes, I have a dog like that too. He's part border collie, part Aussie, and he's "born to serve".

I also have a Queensland Heeler. He's much, much different. He's constantly testing his place in the hierarchy, just to be sure.


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## 425lisamarie (Mar 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShaggyDaddy* 
had you already eaten part of the sandwich, or were you eating as you made it? If so, then this is typical pack behavior, A leader is done with the food, my turn. In either case, I think it would be important to start thinking more like an alpha on food matters. Assign them to eat, when you pour food, instruct them to eat it. If they always have food out, make it a point to take the bowl away during meal times, and replace them once the family is done eating. If they eat table scraps (which does not hurt alpha status in my opinion) make sure if they try to instigate table scraps with begging or stealing, the scraps stop for the night and they are not allowed to eat (even dog food) untill everyone else is done. These are pack behaviors that are important in setting up feeding rank. The last thing you want is some big dogs that feel like they should get to eat FIRST.

The most important action, the one you are struggling with is what to do when it happens. In my opinion this is what you should do: Reprimand the dog with a push (physical relocation to allow you access to YOUR food or a snap, like a warning bite). Take whatever portion of the food is left back to the kitchen. DO NOT decide that you just won't eat. It is important that you eat SOMETHING after this display so that the dog can understand that the alpha was not done eating, and that was the problem. After you are done eating your replacement snack/meal. Take the dogs to their food and tell them they can eat this. Walk away.

Of course sometimes we have no time for this, you can easily shorten it, just keep the alpha mentallity and you can't really go wrong, because the dogs do not have any desire to question a true alpha's decision.

I am really thinking recently of getting a dog in a few years after the kids are a bit older. Will you come train them for me









The thing really keeping us from getting one is we are worried I will not be able to be the dominant person, and the dogs will run ME


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## elizawill (Feb 11, 2007)

when i got my dog, i trained her without ever needing to spank her. she is 6 years old now and wonderfully behaved. she always has responded to the tone of my voice when i give a command, and i trained her with lots of praise. before i became a SAHM i was a social worker and i worked with the alzheimer's population. my dog's job where i worked was to serve as pet therapy. she roamed freely visiting residents, and never misbehaved while unsupervised. obviously all breeds are very different, so perhaps my dog's behavior has more to do with demeanor than training. i dunno. but i do know she is part of my family, and although she is not equal to my kids....i do go out of my way to treat her with love, respect, and kindness. and i don't think that's weird at all.


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizawill* 
when i got my dog, i trained her without ever needing to spank her. she is 6 years old now and wonderfully behaved. she always has responded to the tone of my voice when i give a command, and i trained her with lots of praise. before i became a SAHM i was a social worker and i worked with the alzheimer's population. my dog's job where i worked was to serve as pet therapy. she roamed freely visiting residents, and never misbehaved while unsupervised. obviously all breeds are very different, so perhaps my dog's behavior has more to do with demeanor than training. i dunno. but i do know she is part of my family, and although she is not equal to my kids....i do go out of my way to treat her with love, respect, and kindness. and i don't think that's weird at all.

May I ask what kind of dog you have?









Mine is a hell-raiser, I have had dogs in the past just like yours who did great like that. I don't "spank" my dog. I just use the leash correction and sometimes push on her nose downwards if she nips. But I have never had a dog like this who really does not respond at all to positive reinforcement training like they do at Petsmart. I could almost hear her laughing at the dude!


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## lurve (May 5, 2006)

i haven't read the whole thread but i have four dogs and a seven month old. i get really angry at the dogs lately because they wake up my bad-sleeping baby A LOT!! i don't know what to do about it. sometimes i feel like i want to get physical with them. like you, they arne't getting the attention they used to get. i am realizing that how i treat my dogs will be a role model to my DD. so if i have that physical urge, i get myself away from them. unfortunately alot of times that means even less attention from me, but i don't know what else to do...i mean with four dogs it is hard to be able to correct them all! they are also all from abused situations and each of their stories made me cry, so i took them in...i am also trying to speak nicer to them..it's hard. so many hugs to you because i am so there with you!


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *snowmom11* 
Is this kind of response really helpful? It seems awfully snotty to me. She obviously realized that she had made a mistake.

It was a genuine question. I wasn't sure how to interpret the tone of the post and that's why I asked because I was wondering if she was making a commitment not to hit the dogs. Obviously from this thread many people who don't hit their children think it is fine to hit dogs.

One thing I'll add to the mix is one of the reasons why I think hitting children is a bad idea is that it models that hitting someone we love is an acceptable choice. I would be concerned if children see an adult hitting the dog that they would do the same. Especially with a dog that has a history of behavioral concerns this could be very risky.


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 
Interestingly those replies do absolutely nothing to motivate me to work harder on self control. In fact, they make me feel the complete opposite: irritated with the implied judgment and defensive that more is being made of the situation than there really is.

I question the idea that it is other people's job to motivate you not to hit your animals. That is your responsibility and your responsibility alone.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
I question the idea that it is other people's job to motivate you not to hit your animals. That is your responsibility and your responsibility alone.

No one said anything about anyone needing to motivate me not to hit.

I said that your response fostered feelings of resentment and defensiveness, which had a counter effect to my natural sense of remorse and to my desire to do better. Which is true. You made it more likely that I would seek to justify my actions and less likely that I would seek to modify them.

Don't let that bother you though. Please continue.


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## beka1977 (Aug 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShaggyDaddy* 
Every time you scream, or lose control to your dog, the only thing they hear is "Well, this pack needs a new leader".


Sometimes this is probably what my kids think too!









Every night I threaten to turn my cats into fur muffs if they don't stop scratching everything in sight and trying to leap up onto my sleeping baby. My DH gets annoyed and says that I need to have more patience - but he spends all day with adults, and its not like the cat is trying to knead his boob while he nurses, so really, he has NO CLUE.







:


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## Roar (May 30, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *blessed* 

I said that your response fostered feelings of resentment and defensiveness, which had a counter effect to my natural sense of remorse and to my desire to do better. Which is true. You made it more likely that I would seek to justify my actions and less likely that I would seek to modify them.


As I posted I simply asked a direct question because I was unclear from your post if this experience had made you decide to stop hitting the dogs. It was a choice to spin that into other people are countering your motivation.


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## kungfu_barbi (Jun 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShaggyDaddy* 
...In my opinion this is what you should do: Reprimand the dog with a push (physical relocation to allow you access to YOUR food or a snap, like a warning bite)...

My apologies for jumping in here, Shaggy, I am genuinely curious: Are you saying literally use human teeth on a dog? Seriously, I don't get the part about a "snap" or warning bite...

Earlier you said something like "dogs aren't humans" and I totally agree with that. However, it is equally true that *humans are not dogs*.

I certainly don't have all the answers...I'm just not sure that humans should attempt to discipline dogs as another dog would... It seems dangerous.

I'm thinking there has to be a better answer, something more effective and balanced. IMO hitting is extreme and so is acting like a dog.

With respect,
Kungfu_barbi


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## kittywitty (Jul 5, 2005)

I don't think SD was saying to bite your dog.









But you just grip the dog with your hand like it's a mouth. Have you watched the Dog Whisperer? That would explain what he does.

No, dogs aren't people and people aren't dogs, but dogs think of us as their pack, and as such, healthy pack dynamics are crucial to their well being.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Roar* 
As I posted I simply asked a direct question because I was unclear from your post if this experience had made you decide to stop hitting the dogs. It was a choice to spin that into other people are countering your motivation.

Oh I see. Just a direct question because you weren't clear.

My mistake then.


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## kungfu_barbi (Jun 6, 2006)

Thank you for the reply. I have never seen the Dog Whisperer, so I'm not familiar with the lingo. I thought SD was being literal and I just couldn't picture it.


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## mamitosami (Nov 22, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *becoming* 
I couldn't believe how much less patient I became with animals after my first child was born! I used to consider myself a "dog person," and now I'm not at all.

Yeah, I don't think it's great for your child to see you spanking the dogs, but man, the sandwich incident would have really gotten to me, too!

Oh mannnn, you just said exactly EXACTLY how I feel... I loooooved my dog, now I reallllly dislike my dog. My poor, poor unloved dog, he is just a source of constant guilt for me now.


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## Jude Rose (Jul 7, 2006)

I have to admit I agree with SD on so many points. Dogs think differently than humans. The first thing that popped in my head with the OP is, what is the behavior in wolf packs? I have a dear friend who's a wolf biologist whom I can always ask. They really do nip and snap at each other and seem to like the clarity of roles. I just don't see a flick to the haunches at an appropriate time as hitting.

Now, as for tying this into GD, I learned an amazing lesson years ago with my DH's grandparents. We were dating and met them and their beloved Aussie Heelers for the first time. They would speak to the dogs in such soft soft voices. The dogs ears would perk up and nothing else existed but their words. If one begged too much, the scolding would be at normal speaking volume. It was so educational to see that loudness and yelling weren't necessary. That was all I knew growing up (both the dogs and me at a lesser extent)

So I got my first cat shortly after that and tried it out. Wow. It's been great practice now as I embark into my next real challenge, calmly redirecting my children, who are probably less resilent against my mistakes. I at least have the habits in place of starting at a lower level so the escalation isn't so harsh.


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## Violet2 (Apr 26, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *elizawill* 
when i got my dog, i trained her without ever needing to spank her. she is 6 years old now and wonderfully behaved. she always has responded to the tone of my voice when i give a command, and i trained her with lots of praise. before i became a SAHM i was a social worker and i worked with the alzheimer's population. my dog's job where i worked was to serve as pet therapy. she roamed freely visiting residents, and never misbehaved while unsupervised. obviously all breeds are very different, so perhaps my dog's behavior has more to do with demeanor than training. i dunno. but i do know she is part of my family, and although she is not equal to my kids....i do go out of my way to treat her with love, respect, and kindness. and i don't think that's weird at all.

Some dogs are just lovely dogs, especially with the right owner.

We have two dogs who are like night and day. Both are labs. One very intelligent one, smart enough to try and manipulate us. Her, we can use pretty much only voice commands. Initially we only wanted to use positive reinforcement in training her, but she hated the gentle leader and would rip it off. And we weren't allowed to take the happy happy obedience classes without it, so we went a more traditional route that balance both negative and positive feedback.

Then we have a big lug without an original thought in his head. We spent seven months trying to teach him down. _Seven_ months. We even made him bacon as a reward! Our other dog took an hour to learn the basics.

I think he was a year before he understood the phrase 'let's go outside' and it was two years before he realized he could nudge a door open (and this was with us actively coaching him). We spent this past summer teaching him to swim. Yes, we had to teach a _lab_ how to swim.

He is just s-l-o-w, sort of like a blunt object but with fur. Sometimes he needs physical cues because he is just _so_ not getting it. We are not being abusive or disrespectful, nor are we actually seeking to cause pain, we are trying to communicate with him and he needs this kind of input from us in order to understand what we expect. Plus, he is 100lbs of exuberance with no restraint behind it and I am 8 months pregnant. Sometimes he is a danger to me--in fact he's going to the vet tomorrow and I don't dare go by myself.

Anyway, I could go on, but the point is every dog is different.

Oh and once the baby comes, our big lug is going to be in his den unless there are two adults present to manage him. He's not malicious, he's very sweet, but dangerously so. Based on how long his learning curve has been in the past, we figure we'll take it slow on the baby rules.

V


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## griffin2004 (Sep 25, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MadysonMom* 
Thats what made me realize I did not want my DD to see anyone or anthing getting hit. I dont want her to think its ok for her to hit the dogs when she gets older. I need to practice the same self control with the dogs that I do with her.

I think this is an excellent, and overlooked, point. I don't believe in striking dogs and never did so pre-kid. But now post-kid, I always try to remember that actions speak louder than words and 2 little eyes watch and learn from every single thing I do. I think it's a very confusing message for children to see an animal being physically corrected or punished and to then be told "be gentle with puppy."

Not to say that any of this applies to your situation, Blessed. My dog definitely spends time-outs in her crate when I'm on the verge of doing something we'll both regret. Dogs are wonderful animals who can also drive you straight over the edge!


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## Kylix (May 3, 2002)

I haven't read the rest of the posts beyond blessed's reply but....

I guess I don't understand the point of your OP. You are saying that now you see that spanking your dogs doesn't make sense--since you now are so anti-spanking your dd.

So, the next logical question is are you going to stop?

How that is snarky and unhelpful is beyond me. If you want help on how to stop, then cool but your OP didn't touch on that. It was joking story about a realization you came to??

FWIW, I had never even heard of people "spanking" their dogs until recently. I'm a huge animal rights activist and I don't see how hitting animals is any more acceptable than hitting humans. It seems absurd and I'm happy you are thinking of stopping.

Kylix


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## DevaMajka (Jul 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *captain crunchy* 
In all this talk about the "natural" behaviors of dogs -- newsflash: dogs like food.

I read SD's post to say that it wasn't natural to treat dogs like kids (have them in bed, etc). Maybe I missed it, but I didn't think he said anything about hitting dogs (that it was ok)?

ftr, I'm not arguing with you CC. I agree with you. I'm appalled at dog hitting, and spent hours trying to find articles to convince my aunt that hitting her australian shepherd wasn't the way to get her to stop nipping







:

eta- not that I haven't, in the past, hit one of my dogs out of anger. So I'm not passing judgement on Blessed at all!
But not since ds was old enough to know what was going on. We're dog sitting a puppy for two days, and I noticed that ds doesn't even consider hitting the pup when he does something "wrong." That just reinforced that not hitting is the way to go.


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## Peepsqueak (Jul 5, 2005)

At least it is not the other way around....some people treat their animals better than their children or other people, etc.

I feel your priorities are in the right order. The only thing is, the dog does not really "understand" a spanking or yelling. From what I gather it just is a sound or a touch and it means absolutely nothing to them.

The way to get better behavior, because the dogs may be trying to reestablish their position now that the daughter is here. Whenever anything changes the training has to be reinforced again...(i.e. the sandwich incident...they were already trained against that but now they have to be reestablished again....just like testing boundaries,etc).

I did not read all the posts, but I understand your dilemna because I had my children and the then the dogs had to be trained along with them, etc. It is a bigger responsibility with children and dogs....a big job.

Everything will smooth out soon. And the dogs are going to be quite understanding too..LOL


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## carfreemama (Jun 13, 2007)

This is probably the most interesting post to me so far. I think the reason the line gets blurred between 'dog training' and 'gentle discipline' is that, for those of us with dogs, it IS blurred. Our kids and our animals just interact so intimately and we want to keep everyone safe and happy.

For myself, I've never really believed the Alpha stuff. It just never made sense. I found a gentle-discipline-type obedience class for my dog and have been AMAZED at the similarities between what we were taught there and anything I have learned about GD and AP. I actually feel that a lot of the goals of raising children and dogs are very similar. The biggest lesson for me was, NEVER cause your dog discomfort or physical pain. You are trying to foster attachment between you and your dog and build your relationship. You want him to WANT to come to you. Physical pain causes fear, and fear sets the stage for aggression. I feel like dog training is going through a metamorphosis away from teaching-through-pain, just as, hopefully, parenting is. But I guess you do research and choose to go down the path that makes sense to you.

I don't think it's just about spanking pets, either. My husband and I were in the regular habit of pushing our cat off the table (certainly not violently, but still), or moving the dog out of the way with our foot. Our daughter very quickly picked up on this and started pushing the animals with all the restraint of a 2yo. We didn't even think of what we were doing as pushing. Not to mention yelling at them. We don't do any of these things anymore. The more gentle we are with our animals, the more gentle she is. Now if we speak to the animals in a "mean voice" she tells us, "hey, that wasn't a very nice voice you used." She has taught us. I could go on about what our trainer told us about the flaws in the 'pack theory,' but that really is pet forum stuff. My interest is sparked by this debate, though, so I'm going to spend some time in that forum now.


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## momz3 (May 1, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ShaggyDaddy* 
I am not trying to argue, I don't think hitting dogs is right, but I do feel communicating on their level is apropriate. Dogs like order and a chain of command MORE than they like food, seriously.


Me neither. I know someone who talks about how spanking children is abuse, etc, yet she allows her dh to hit their 4 lb yorkie when she has an accident (which, imo is THEIR fault if they do not watch her properly). I think its abuse as well. I am shocked at some of the replies I've read...
I have not seen where spanking/hitting a dog was effective in correcting the behavior. I sure would love to see sources to were there has been a positive outcome from hitting a dog. I rescued a sibe 2 yrs ago and it hurt to see her cower when we tried to pet her. it took a while before she realized that while with us , she would not be hit, but she did soon warm up and turned out to be a great dog.

Abuse is abuse.Whether its on a child or dog.

My 2 cents, spend at will.


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## josephine_e (May 27, 2006)

this thread is really interesting to me because i really really want a dog. i've never been a dog person, until i met this 2yo border collie/chow/new-fin retriever mix and fell in love with him! he's seriously one of my best friends (i say i'm going to see my "dog friend" and everyone says, "you mean your friend's dog?" and i'm like, "no, but i'm friends with his human, too."







)

this dog is amazing. he's the best behaved dog I've ever seen, and I didn't realize that I could have such a close relationship with someone of a different species. he's still got a lot of puppy in him and gets into stuff/gets mischievous, but when i talk to him he almost always listens and behaves accordingly. i've only seen his owner hit him once, and that was when he bit my 7yo brother (i think he was trying ther "herd" my brother, he didn't bite him hard and it wasn't out of anger. i don't know that hitting him for it was the best thing, but i think it just scared us all and his owner didn't know what to do, kwim?)

anyway, i know that this is the kind of relationship i want to have with any future dog. i think i'm going to have to do A LOT of research about breeds/pack order before i get one (oh, and wait until my kids are older bc i just wouldn't have the energy right now!) ... but this thread brings up a lot of very interesting points about training/compassion/gentleness/the kinds of relationships we want in our families -- even the animal members.

i think what it probably comes down to with dogs, just like with kids, is understanding their development and treating them accordingly.

anyway, thanks to everyone (especially SD) for your insight! i'd love to hear even more experience from those who have BTDT!

Oh, and OP --







: it's great that you're aware enough of your family situation to see this going on! most people i know aren't even aware of how dynamics in the family are affecting themselves or their kids, let alone how changing dynamics affect the pets, and thus how that affects the whole family, kwim? ... does that make sense?


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## GradysMom (Jan 7, 2007)

Yet another vote for - me too!

Ever since baby I am no longer such a dog person.

I was even going to write this huge before and after baby essay cursing those who give away the dog after baby is born.. but now I soooo get it.

No patience for dogs now - trying to get better...

I didn't see this thread and started a new one, very similar


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## eastmillcreekmama (May 22, 2007)

Thank you all for your insights and expereinces here...we had the somewhat bad idea to get a puppy when DD was 6 months old, a cow dog at that. (We live in the country and plan to get stock animals, but we don't have any yet to entertain her). It has been rather difficult at times, and has been a lot of management. Even though it has always been this way for the dog, she still puts on the guilt when I ignore her for the afternoon because I can't deal with her and have enough on my plate with DD.

I have hit the dog on several occassions,







: and get frustrated when the dog won't listen to my voice commands. She is a smart dog, and knows the commands, but sometimes won't listen. She's a sentient thinking being, not a robot, but it ruffles my feathers sometimes! A baby comes with stress enoough! WE are getting better with the training, and developing a good rapport with the dog, but we still need some work on temper management, and the dog needs more training which takes time. It is good practice for us, and I don't think I have hit the dog in a long time now. DD is getting older and understands a lot, and Ihave observed her "telling" the dog to do things, even though she isn't sayinig the words. I hope I can foster a non-violent way of interacting with the dog for her, and to me, this means my example counts, a lot.

FWIW, my cat was a special critter to me before baby, and now I could practically care less. Having a baby really does change things! I have gotten really angry with the cats when they wake the baby, or step on her while she's sleeping! I just want to kick them out! But I have to remind myself that they are part of the family too, and that I took responsibility for them.

Anyhow, thanks for this thread, it never occurred to me to bring it to MDC and it has been really helpful for me.


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## hanno (Oct 4, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carfreemama* 
This is probably the most interesting post to me so far. I think the reason the line gets blurred between 'dog training' and 'gentle discipline' is that, for those of us with dogs, it IS blurred. Our kids and our animals just interact so intimately and we want to keep everyone safe and happy.

For myself, I've never really believed the Alpha stuff. It just never made sense. I found a gentle-discipline-type obedience class for my dog and have been AMAZED at the similarities between what we were taught there and anything I have learned about GD and AP. I actually feel that a lot of the goals of raising children and dogs are very similar. The biggest lesson for me was, NEVER cause your dog discomfort or physical pain. You are trying to foster attachment between you and your dog and build your relationship. You want him to WANT to come to you. Physical pain causes fear, and fear sets the stage for aggression. I feel like dog training is going through a metamorphosis away from teaching-through-pain, just as, hopefully, parenting is. But I guess you do research and choose to go down the path that makes sense to you.

I don't think it's just about spanking pets, either. My husband and I were in the regular habit of pushing our cat off the table (certainly not violently, but still), or moving the dog out of the way with our foot. Our daughter very quickly picked up on this and started pushing the animals with all the restraint of a 2yo. We didn't even think of what we were doing as pushing. Not to mention yelling at them. We don't do any of these things anymore. The more gentle we are with our animals, the more gentle she is. Now if we speak to the animals in a "mean voice" she tells us, "hey, that wasn't a very nice voice you used." She has taught us. I could go on about what our trainer told us about the flaws in the 'pack theory,' but that really is pet forum stuff. My interest is sparked by this debate, though, so I'm going to spend some time in that forum now.

I'm with you and your trainer. I find 'animals' and children to be remarkably similar.


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## sunnymw (Feb 28, 2007)

Well, to answer your question, I am a no, and DH is a yes. Unfortunately, in the past, whenever the dog did ANYthing (like, stood in front of the TV and didn't move) dh would just go off on him and throw him out onto the balcony (the dog's space), but we've had long talks about how A) if you keep hitting the dog, he's going to start biting DS and B) the TV is not more important than a living being (and we also moved the TV up higher). So I think we're finally getting through to him. He has a lot of rage issues (his mama, love her to death, was one of those that would give five million warnings before flying off the handle at one stupid little thing) and I'm trying to come up with creative ways to channel his anger that don't involve the dog, even if (for now) it is involving doors and walls.


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## carfreemama (Jun 13, 2007)

I've been following this whole thread and feel I need to add another post, kind of to clarify my original one. It seems that there are two different dynamics happening in this discussion. One is how much less time and attention so many of us have to give our pets, particularly our dogs and the other one, if it's ever OK to spank or use physical correction with animals and how that affects our children.

On my previous post I voted for a new model of dog training that goes against the alpha-dog-pack-thing that seems to be the dominant paradigm for training out there. I feel even more in the minority with my rejection of that model than I do with my alternative parenting style.

BUT I so, so empathize with the no-time-for-my-dog and "what happened to my relationships with my animals since I had kids" thing that everyone seems to identify with. This has been by far the biggest challenge for me and my transition into parenthood. It has caused huge conflict with my partner and unending stress, since I cannot leave my dog alone with my child. He's a 'good dog,' but I do not trust him not to bite if my daughter pulls his tail, although she doesn't do that now, or steps on him accidentally. I adopted him from the shelter as an adult and no amount of training will ever convince me he wouldn't snap at her if she hurt him by accident.

One of my solutions in the early days was to hire a dog walker once a week. I did this in desperation to give my husband, who had to assume most of the responsibility for dog-walking while I was nursing, a break. I paid for it out of my own allowance, twice a week. We could not afford it. But it did take the edge off the tension and made my husband feel like his needs were being considered. Now I barter for this, giving the dog-walker bread and food to take home once a week instead of cash. She loves it. She's also a trainer and behaviourist who has really helped us keep our dog.

I feel so bad that so many people give up on their pets when they have kids. It's so, so overwhelming. My only thought has been to try and set up some sort of support system for new parents in our local area...some sort of free dog-walking service to help them through the adjustment period and to just give them someone to talk to who's been there. Now that things are FINALLY settling down here, and my dog is good with other dogs, I am thinking of approaching our SPCA to try and get something like this going with other dog- lovers. One big problem I found was that people seemed to be either 'dog people,' who made me feel guilty for even discussing rehoming our dog for snapping/biting, or 'kid people,' who told me I was insane for even considering keeping the dog. We still have him and I am still nervous for our child. I keep training, try to give the dog lots of exercise and constantly, constantly supervise and separate.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *carfreemama* 
One big problem I found was that people seemed to be either 'dog people,' who made me feel guilty for even discussing rehoming our dog for snapping/biting, or 'kid people,' who told me I was insane for even considering keeping the dog.

I love my dog. I'm a "dog person"--but I wouldn't consider keeping a dog I didn't trust with my children.


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## blessed (Jan 28, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnysideup* 
I love my dog. I'm a "dog person"--but I wouldn't consider keeping a dog I didn't trust with my children.

Yup, dat.


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## m9m9m9 (Jun 13, 2005)

I always swore that I would never hit my dog ... but I have a few times. I don't make it a habit or anything. I am much, much worse about screaming at the dog which is just dumb bc the dog is pretty much deaf.

Its very frustrating lately - my house always smells no matter how much I vacumn or mop, the dog always stinks bc she needs a bath, the groomer costs an arm and a leg, walking the dog w/my DD is not enjoyable, my dog is a huge pain in the @ss and when I am in another part of the house or outside and she can't go there she will fuss, whine and slobber.

I am jealous of my neighbors who gave their dog to a new home after their child was born bc they couldn't deal with the dog and the kid. My dog was an adult when I got her, she was 7, and now is almost 14 and there is no way I could ever give her up no matter how annoying she gets - one bc I do love her and so does my DD and two bc I think it would be very cruel at this age to make her go to a new home.

~ Maggie


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## Enudely (Jul 2, 2005)

when dd was born, our cat suddenly went from being a much beloved, much doted on member of the family, to an annoying creature who we mostly directed such things as "Max, Get OUT of here!" at.
We actually moved and made the difficult decision to put him up for adoption, to a great home. I swear, I never would have guessed the relief I felt! I miss him, but I don't think I'm going to want another pet for a long time!


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sunnysideup* 
I love my dog. I'm a "dog person"--but I wouldn't consider keeping a dog I didn't trust with my children.

I'm a dog person too, but I don't really feel you can trust any dog with children around.


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## Cassifrass (Aug 29, 2007)

I feel that you can trust a dog as long as you know it. I don't know about others' pets, but I know what provokes my animals. They've never bitten or acted aggressively towards the kids, but they (one in particular) are very protective. DH and I were play-fighting once and he pinned my arms behind me, and I was screaming "help," and my big dog jumped up and bit DH on the behind.. pretty hard. That's the ONLY biting incident we've had with any of our three dogs, and while we know he was doing it to defend and help me, we no longer play like that when the dogs are in the room. After it happened DH turned around and yelled and the dog immediately tucked his tail and cowered. He's never been hit, NEVER (we have had him since he was born) but he knew he'd made a mistake and I guess he feared retaliation. DH said he was close to hitting him but seeing him cower like that, he felt sorry for him. After all, he was just defending his mama, and if there were a stranger in the room doing the same thing to me or the kids we'd want him to react.

We have trained our dogs to be submissive to us without fear or intimidation. When they were all puppies we would hold them on their backs, showing their tummies, speaking to them in a calm voice.. then let them up and praise them. They, much like children, respond much better to positive reinforcement than negative.

A "friend" of mine has 5 girls, ages 8, 7, 4, 2, and 3 months, and they recently got a chihuahua puppy. The puppy weighed less than a pound when they brought her home, and she was already instructing the kids that if she pottied on the floor or bit one of them, to hit her nose. I was SO sad. The 4 year old hits her HARD, and her mom insists that this is the only way the puppy will learn that the kids are dominant and she is not. I have a chihuahua also, and he was the same size when we brought him home.. so tiny and helpless.. I couldn't have imagined ever hitting that tiny baby.

My dogs are part of the family. I wouldn't hit my kid for having an "accident" or getting into the trash, so why hit the dog? You do have to discipline and relate to dogs in a different way but hitting is not EVER acceptable IMO.


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## m9m9m9 (Jun 13, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cassifrass* 
I feel that you can trust a dog as long as you know it. I don't know about others' pets, but I know what provokes my animals. They've never bitten or acted aggressively towards the kids, but they (one in particular) are very protective. DH and I were play-fighting once and he pinned my arms behind me, and I was screaming "help," and my big dog jumped up and bit DH on the behind.. pretty hard. That's the ONLY biting incident we've had with any of our three dogs, and while we know he was doing it to defend and help me, we no longer play like that when the dogs are in the room.

It can be quite dangerous to believe that "you can trust a dog as long as you know it". Professional who work with dogs -vet, trainers - will agree that this is not the case and dogs can react in ways that we don't expect. Dogs do not have the capability to reason.

Given the example you provided, I believe it is remiss for you to leave a child alone even for a few minutes with the dog.

My dog has never bitten but she has growled in warning(which I am thankful for...much better than her just biting) once or twice and she is generally a docile dog with people yet I will only leave her alone w/DD who is 3 for a few minutes now when she was younger - never. I would never leave a child that wasn't mine with my dog.

- Maggie


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## ShadowMom (Jun 25, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Cassifrass* 
I feel that you can trust a dog as long as you know it. I don't know about others' pets, but I know what provokes my animals. They've never bitten or acted aggressively towards the kids, but they (one in particular) are very protective.

I think that is a very dangerous mentality. There are many documented cases of children being bitten by a trusted family dog who has never shown previous aggression.

Dogs don't play by the same rules we do, they don't speak the same language, and they react differently and very instinctually.

Also, chihuahua's are statistically the dog most likely to bite one of your family members. I guess it's less likely to be lethal than a bigger dog but still not a good thing to mess around with.


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## Cassifrass (Aug 29, 2007)

With a young child, that's true.. I wouldn't leave my dogs (or cats!) alone with a small child. My kids are older, and they know the rules concerning the pets, so I don't feel uncomfortable if they are upstairs playing in their room or in the backyard without us, with one or more of the dogs. When they were younger it was different. The dogs weren't allowed in their room if they were up there playing, and they weren't allowed in the backyard without one of us with them.

I'm not arguing the point that dogs are unpredictable. We never expected our big dog to bite DH. He's generally very loving and docile. But, having learned what provokes our dogs, we set strict rules about how we (and the kids) interact with them and I trust them around my kids, and my kids around them. There have been several occasions where others will bring their kids over to our place, and when that happens the dogs stay outside or in another room.

ETA: I haven't found anything saying chihuahuas are the most likely breed of dog to bite... According to this site ( http://www.dogexpert.com/Dog%20Bite%...tatistics.html ), it's generally mixed breeds, and among purebreds German Shephards are the most likely biters... Of course there is a risk with ANY breed, age, and size of dog, chihuahuas included.


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## catchthewind (Jan 11, 2006)

I have always considered myself a dog person. I worked in pet stores and vet clinics for years as a teen and volunteered at the SPCA as well. I also walked dogs twice a week on a volunteer basis for people as well. I could never understand how people could even consider giving a dog up after having kids. Now I can understand it. I don't think we'd ever actually give ours up, unless she becomes aggressive with our daughter (so far she's been very gentle when we've let her see the baby), but she is definitely annoying me more lately. I think partly she really is acting out more. We moved, 5 days later we had a baby, then we've had guests and visitors in and out almost constantly since then. And she's never been a social dog and we don't normally get a lot of guests. She was a rescue and does have fear aggression. So I don't think she's at fault for it, but I still can't help but be more annoyed at her and it does make me a bit sad. I sometimes wish I'd had a bit more forethought before getting her. I'd always had Keeshonds before her, which are the sweetest, most child-friendly dogs and want nothing more than to please their owners, which makes them easy to train.

Our current dog is a Klee Kai (miniature Husky) and very independent, a huge difference. Telling her no or that she's doing something wrong doesn't normally make her stop, she just doesn't seem to care if we're happy with her or not. My Keeshonds could be motivated with just a pat, a look, even a smile or a frown, she needs a lot more than that. I have found myself yelling at her, especially when she's chasing the cat or barking, but since reading more about GD I've really tried to stop that and actually found talking to her seems to get her attention better than yelling. Plus I don't want our children to grow up thinking the way to solve problems with the dog is to yell. She just ignores me when I yell, or barks more. I've never hit her, though when she's growling or snapping at another dog I have pretty forcefully grabbed her muzzle. We have taken her to aggression classes though and I've learned some really good ways to redirect her attention and energy, a lot like GD actually.







And they really seem to work when I remember them.

Personally I think I'm sort of in the middle of the spectrum as far as pack order vs GD for dogs. I think she needs to respect us and know that we are the food providers, but on the other hand I need to respect her as well (such as recognizing there have been a lot of changes for her this past month) and I do want to foster attachment. Maybe I'm wrong but with GD and kids, don't you want the kids to see you as the one they go to to find out what's good or bad and how to handle a situation? In a way I think that's very similar to the role an "Alpha" should play to a dog. I noticed after the class (which had a lot of GD tendencies while still keeping you as the "Alpha" so to speak) she seemed to come to us when she was scared rather than immediately reacting with aggression. And normally once she saw we were okay with a situation she was much calmer too, though not perfect. She seems to have lost that this past month, so I might look into taking her back to the class again as a refresher more for me than for her.

The cat hasn't annoyed me more at all, but he's always been really great. He is a bit less social since the baby, in that he no longer seems to come seeking attention, but if I go to him he still loves to be pet. Anyway, this ended up longer and more long-winded than I expected, so I'm going to stop now.







I hope I managed to stay mostly on topic.


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## gwynthfair (Mar 17, 2006)

This thread really hit a chord with me because I have a 10 year old dog, who I have always struggled with because of her aggression/fear issues. When I got pregnant I was devastated because I thought for sure I would have to put her down for the safety of my child. Fortunately, despite all our issues she has been great with the baby.

We oftentimes, and I'm so not proud, get upset and yell at her. She barks a lot and very loudly and we have a small house and a baby. It's really frustrating. I've done a lot of research on dog-training methods and am still at a loss of how to help her with her issues. I have tried positive reinforcement methods, taken her to a behaviorist (Patricia McConnell) and tried Cesar Milan's methods and have been frustrated with both methods, although Cesar's method was effective, when we stuck to it and were controlled and patient, which unforunately is very hard for many people, including us. I feel so guilty and like I have failed her. I wish I could stick to walking her every day for an hour, but it's tough to find the time and energy.

I feel bad for dogs, most of them do not have their needs met at all, and they're still so loyal.







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## Cassifrass (Aug 29, 2007)

gwynthfair, I know what you mean! DH and I both work more than full time hours, and they probably don't get the attention they need. I do walk them every day (alternating days as they would be a lot to manage all at once!) and we play with them as much as possible, but I always feel bad when I come home wanting to be left alone after a long day's work and they're all "Mom! Let's play! Throw the ball! Rub my belly!" They're like three kids. My cats are much more self-sufficient but I think making the decision to have a dog is much like making the decision to have a child. You agree to take on the responsibilities of providing the dog with food, water, shelter, and love. Even when you're exhausted, you make sure their needs are met before you rest. It's never been a responsibility I take lightly, but it gets frustrating. Nevertheless, no matter how unenthused I am to see them, they're always jumping for joy when I come home.


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## bettysmom (Jul 28, 2007)

I had to circle back to this one, because I just spanked my MIL's dog. I feel really bad about it -- I had no idea how close to the surface such a reaction was for me. DD often pushes my buttons, and I never spank her. Dog-sitting was sprung on us last night, as a demand, not a request. MIL and her husband are in town but staying in a hotel for the first few nights. They didn't tell us when they'd arrive, so I spent all morning awaiting their call. DD went down for a much-needed nap at 1, and the dog arrived at 1:45. He will not settle -- click, click, click go his nails on our wood floors, to the front door (right near DD's room), where he whines. And again and again. Meanwhile I can't eat so much as an apple, because he is friendly but poorly trained, and demands table food incessantly. The perpetual motion and whining near napping DD's door was driving me nuts, and then he went and snatched some expired turkey from our trash. That's when I spanked him, on his bony, arthritic haunches (he's 13 or 14). I feel trapped, because once DD wakes up, how could I possibly manage her and the elderly dog on our stairs, and oversee both of them? I'm just not cut out for this -- we have a box turtle, and I had no idea how tough it was to manage a larger and more challenging pet when there's a baby or toddler in the house.


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## dawn1221 (Sep 27, 2006)

I push my kitty with my foot (almost like a kick but not a kick at all) so she will move out of my way when I am walking. She has a terrible habit of being underfoot at all times. All of us have almost broken our necks because of it.

Now DD sees me push kitty outta the way with my foot and thinks it is ok to kick the cat. She say "move cookie" then kicks her as soon as she sees her.

I feel bad about it and tell her no kicking but I know it is my fault for setting a bad example.

Just my story. No judgment to Blessed about your dog situation. I know I don't have the patience for a dog so I will not get one. I am not a dog person. I learned that from dog sitting.


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## aussiemum (Dec 20, 2001)

I don't spank my dog or my kids. I yell at them all sometimes (& I'm working on modifying that), but i sure don't spank/hit.

I don't really understand how it is okay legally to hit a kid or a pet at certain times but not at others, kwim?


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