# I dont get it?



## KayCSmommy (Jan 9, 2007)

I really dont understand what is wrong with circs? I left the hospital with my son uncir. I had it done in a clinic at one week old. They sat down and talked to me both at the hospital, and the clinic before it was done. Handed me a sheets of pros and cons, both ways. It made perfect sense for health purposes to have it done. They did it in the other room, took about 10 mins. My son didn't cry or anything the whole time, and never did. It was easy to care for, and really easy to keep it clean. So I dont get it, whats so wrong with it?


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

Read this:

http://oknocirc.blogspot.com/


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## Jillie (May 24, 2005)

My son's penis is really easy to keep clean too and I didn't have to cut anything off of it to make it that way. Oh, and it isn't mine to decide to have bits (large bits!) cut off of. Maybe he would have liked to have those parts for his own personal pleasure? It is just so unnecessary. We don't cut parts off of girls to "keep them clean" do we? And if it was really just 10 minutes, than it's likely that there was little or no pain relief for your son. Thats really sad.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

They cut away part of your son's penis, a part that belonged there, that increases pleasure and is just plain old a lot of fun. For what? Nothing. And now your son will go thru life without part of himself, and he won't have as much sexual enjoyment as he should. Instead he has a wound.

That is the big deal, IMO.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

KayCSmommy,

We welcome questions, and we're happy to share resources and information. However, please keep in mind that this is The Case Against Circumcision forum, so pro-circumcision comments/advocacy are not allowed.

You're about to embark on a journey that can be very painful for parents after the fact. Not only is care of an intact penis easy, but the foreskin is sensitive erogenous tissue with protective, sexual, and immunological functions. Many parents circumcise without really understanding what they're taking from their sons.

You will likely come across comments and other information that may be upsetting to learn.

Try to keep an open mind and remember the words of Maya Angelou:

Quote:

"I don't know if I continue, even today, always liking myself. But what I learned to do many years ago was to forgive myself. It is very important for every human being to forgive herself or himself because if you live, you will make mistakes- it is inevitable. But once you do and you see the mistake, then you forgive yourself and say, 'well, if I'd known better I'd have done better,' that's all. So you say to people who you think you may have injured, 'I'm sorry,' and then you say to yourself, 'I'm sorry.' If we all hold on to the mistake, we can't see our own glory in the mirror because we have the mistake between our faces and the mirror; we can't see what we're capable of being. You can ask forgiveness of others, but in the end the real forgiveness is in one's own self. I think that young men and women are so caught by the way they see themselves. Now mind you. When a larger society sees them as unattractive, as threats, as too black or too white or too poor or too fat or too thin or too sexual or too asexual, that's rough. But you can overcome that. The real difficulty is to overcome how you think about yourself. If we don't have that we never grow, we never learn, and sure as hell we should never teach."
Some of the most passionate intactivists I've met, including the director of NOCIRC, Marilyn Milos, have one or more circumcised sons. If you didn't know, you're not alone. What's done is done. Sharing information with other parents can help them avoid the same mistake.

Welcome the board.









Best wishes to you as you begin to process this new information,

Jen


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## KayCSmommy (Jan 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Jillie* 
My son's penis is really easy to keep clean too and I didn't have to cut anything off of it to make it that way. Oh, and it isn't mine to decide to have bits (large bits!) cut off of. Maybe he would have liked to have those parts for his own personal pleasure? It is just so unnecessary. We don't cut parts off of girls to "keep them clean" do we? And if it was really just 10 minutes, than it's likely that there was little or no pain relief for your son. Thats really sad.

Didn't want to make people mad, it was just a question.

When I was pregnant I never found out what I was having. When I checked into the hospital and they asked me if I had a boy would I want him circed. I didnt know what that ment so I said I don't know. They told me that I could decide later, and left it at that. When he was born they asked me again and I said I dont know, because I didnt know what it ment. When I looked at him later I asked the nurse what was the matter with his penis. She laughed at me and asked what I ment. Then she explained to me trying not to laugh that boys weren't born circed and it was a surgery.
Before I left the hospital they asked me again, and I said I dont know. They talked to me about it. Then I went to my clinic and my son's doctor talked to me about it for about a half and hour. After listening and reading the pros and cons and her showing me how it was done how to care for it. The health benifits I went ahead and did it. (they numbed the penis) He didnt bleed after the surgry it healed it about 5 days. I have no regreats on getting it done.
Its cutting off a piece of skin, its not cutting a piece of him. I cut skin off him about everyday. That is all your finger nail is, is harded skin. Yopur right, I never thought that it may be something that he might not want, but I also never thought about it that way. I just thought its healthier for him and got it done. I will feel bad if when he is older, if he were to tell that he wished it wasn't done. There is nothing that can be about it now.
(I am sorry if I am rambling on.)
I was just wondering why so many would be against it?


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## blondajo (Nov 14, 2005)

What do you mean they did it in another room? Were you able to witness it and look into your dear son's eyes? Or wouldn't the doctors allow you to be in the room while it was being done?


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## KayCSmommy (Jan 9, 2007)

They had to do it in a sugery room, not in the check-up room and I was standing in the doorway. She was very gentle with him and explained everything she was doing. After it was done, I cried my eyeballs out (not him). I am not even sure why I cried, I guess just being a mom. He was fine aferwards, and I never thought about it again. I just happened to catch that people were saying not to do it on this forum and was just wondering why.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Maybe you cried becoz they permanently removed a very important part of your son's penis, with your consent, for no good reason? I would have cried too.


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## mothragirl (Sep 10, 2005)

foreskin is much more than a fingernail, i think the word "foreskin" is misleading. it is a large, functional part of his sexual organs. fingernails are keratin, and also grow back. they have no nerve endings and don't have a protective function. i'm sorry your doctor mislead you, hopefully if you have another son you'll be a little more educated.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

They lied to you. There are NO health benefits. None. Zip. Zilch.

It's not "just a piece of skin"

Will you have part of a daughter's labia removed? Would you like yours removed? It's just skin









Really the foreskin is a vital piece of anatomy that you removed from your son without his consent for no good reason.

Please do some more research.

-Angela


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KayCSmommy* 
Its cutting off a piece of skin, its not cutting a piece of him. I cut skin off him about everyday. That is all your finger nail is, is harded skin. Yopur right, I never thought that it may be something that he might not want, but I also never thought about it that way. I just thought its healthier for him and got it done. I will feel bad if when he is older, if he were to tell that he wished it wasn't done. There is nothing that can be about it now.
(I am sorry if I am rambling on.)

I was just wondering why so many would be against it?

KayCSmommy-

So far, believe it or not, responses have been relatively polite. However, if you continue to make statements that mimimize circumcision people are probably going to begin posting more harshly. It's probably best to say, "I was told it was just a little piece of skin. I was lead to believe circumcision was like trimming a fingernail. Why wouldn't a man want to be circumcised?"

An adult foreskin is a double-layered, tubular sheath of mobile skin containing 3-4 feet of blood vessels, 240 feet of nerves, and tens of thousands of specialized nerve endings. What's removed from a baby's penis looks tiny, but an adult foreskin is 15 square inches (picture a 3x5 index card) in size, including outer and inner mucousal skin.

If you look at these photos and read the captions you'll be able to tell just how much skin a newborn circumcision actually translates to on a full-sized, adult penis: http://www.foreskin.org/3zones-c.htm

During masturbation and intercourse, the foreskin slides back and forth over the glans (head), providing stimulation and making intercourse smooth and comfortable by reducing excessive, irritating friction. Did you know lubricant isn't necessary for intact men, even during masturbation?

Did you know you have a foreskin? The medical term for foreskin is "prepuce". Yours is your clitoral hood. In men and women the foreskin protects the glans (head of the penis and clitoris) keeping the surface of those structures thin, slightly moist, and sensitive. When that protection is removed, the skin dries and thickens, similar to the way the bottoms of your feet would callous if you went barefoot all summer. This further reduces sensitivity and sexual pleasure.

When babies are born, the foreskin is actually adhered-literally, fused-to the glans (head) much like your fingernail is attached to your finger. One of the first steps of infant circumcision requires forcefully separating those two structures with a blunt probe or scissors. Because the baby's meatus (peehole) has no protection, the urine and feces from being in diapers can irritate and scar the opening, causing a condition called meatal stenosis. 10% of circumcised boys get this, and it generally requires additional surgery to cut and stretch the scarred opening.







(My stepson had this condition.)

Circumcision also removes a specialized, nerve-laden structure called the ridged band and damages or completely removes the frenulum (male g-spot).

This brief summary is really only scratching the surface, but rest assured the foreskin is not extra skin, it comes standard on all healthy baby boys and it's there for a reason.

Please stick around, try to keep an open mind, let the information soak in, and give yourself a chance to digest it. Don't hesitate to ask any questions that arise. I'm so sorry you didn't find this board before your son was born. You obviously love your little guy and did what you thought was best with the information you had available at the time.

Jen


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## trmpetplaya (May 30, 2005)

Welcome! My reasons for opposing circumcision are (these'll be brief though... dd's very attached at the moment):

Because circumcising cuts off one of the most important parts of the penis. The foreskin is there for a reason and cutting it off not only carries the same risks (including, though it's very rare, death) as any other major surgery, but it's not necessary. It would be unfathomable to me to put my child through an unnecessary surgery with a 10% complication rate so that I would have to care for an open wound that would daily be exposed to excrement.

Perhaps if you told us the alleged "health benefits" you were told circumcising would give your son, we could help you see why it's not necessary. As far as I am aware, there are none (and I've done a fair turn of research on this issue). A boy who is left intact (not circumcised) has a far less than 1% chance of ever having to be circumcised later in life whereas a boy who is circumcised has a 10% chance of having meatal stenosis. Meatal stenosis is a condition CAUSED by circumcision and that requires yet another surgery which would have been unnecessary had the unnecessary circumcision not be done in the first place. *whew* that's two unnecessary surgeries instead of none. Not odds I want to be gambling with!

As for you, you shouldn't feel terribly about circumcising your son, because you thought it was the best thing at the time. If someday you come to see it as we do, then please don't be too hard on yourself. Be open to learning what we have to share though because we truly care about babies and the adults they will become. You were told some lies, no doubt, and because your instincts were true, you felt that there was something wrong during the circumcision or you wouldn't have felt so badly. Please read the sticky at the top for mamas who circumcised their sons and regret it. I think it may help you place some of the feelings you had during the circumcision and work through any bad feelings you may still have about it.

love and peace.


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## ~Kira~ (Sep 16, 2004)

Why would so many people be against it?

To speak painly, because it violates a fundamental human right.

Your son has the right to bodily integrity.

By forcing a completely unnecessary, damaging and traumatic surgery on him, without his consent, you have (whether knowingly or not) violated his fundamental human rights.

He is permanently damaged. He will never ever ever be able to experience normal, natural sex.

You have amputated what will be 240 feet of nerves. . . around 20,000 nerve endings (those provide sexual sensation!).

You have removed the protective functions, so his glans (the head of the penis) will become hardened, dried out, less sensitive.

Over 80 percent of the men in the world are intact, they have whole penises. Your son's penis is now scarred, no longer whole.

Please take some time, read through the resource stickies at the top of the forum. Once you are ready I hope you will post your story in the "Regret" thread. It can be a very healing experience for many people.

- Kira


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## MommytoB (Jan 18, 2006)

There are alot of myths on circumcision which claims that it has benefits there is truly no benefit in circumcision :

Cleaner is a false benefit of circumcision because most parents or doctor hold onto the belief of having to pull back the foreskin to clean under so some may think they might be removing the work but in reality they are making the boy more unclean because they removed the protective covering of the penis that does not ever need to be forcibly pulled back to clean so in non circumcized boys all you have to do is wipe on the outside it takes time to be retractable sometimes as late teens or early adulthood.

When I see my son who is non -circed have a blow out omg boy am I grateful that he has his foreskin because there has never even been any worries of feces on his glans because his foreskin is protecting his glans and I don't have to worry about getting feces into his meatus because he's has his meatus protected by his foreskin from preventing lil feces shreds into his meatus.

I took care of a circ'ed boy when he had a blow out there was no way I could prevent the feces from not getting into the meatus because it was so tightly stuck to the glans then between the edge of remenants omg it took me longer to do that because I had to be so focused on 'cleaning it' when with my son Wipe & Go. Non-Circ'ed is easier to take care of than circ'ed male JMO.

Locker Room is now 50/50 half non circed and half circ'ed

Teasing happens of anything too tall, too short, a guy who is too long in the sausage department or too short in the sausage department, freckles, a bully could be the one who could have a foreskin and tease the cut boy w/ cruel words , girls get teased by being big busted or flat chested, alot of kids with specials needs get teased, including categories in highschool - like sports - called a jock, like chess, computer, is extra smart -called either a geek or dork or you may not even like that & called a geek or dork because of the outfits or hairstyle you have .

UTI is more higher in girls and the study was very flawed by Edgar Schoen who was way obsessed with circumcised penis even his site is so off balance he used to be on the AAP chair but he got thrown off because of his poems of the Circumcised Penis. Antibiotics cure UTI in circ'ed & non-circ boys just because a boy is circ'ed it won't mean he won't get a UTI or infection(s). Yeast infections can happen in non circ boys balanthopothsitis and circ'ed boys balantitis -antifungal yeast cream 3.50 OTC works great for both non circ and circ boys including girls!

http://www.catholicsagainstcircumcis...plications.htm

Alot of men are unhappy of being circumcised because they had no say it it and some of them have complications from the circumcision that effects their sex life that has about quite a alot of men restoring to get back what they lost pleasing them & their wife .

Read the thread that states Angry with MIL that shows how men & wives have suffered with complications in sexual relations due to the issue of circumcision complications.

Acquired phimosis happens in circ'ed males 70% time when there is still some foreskin remaining and it reheals it back to the glans , shaft , or even scar line because nature makes the foreskin to attach to the glans as in protecting things from getting in there . Which is a higher risk of where skin tags, skin bridges come from.

A non-circ'ed boy has congential phimosis and can have it until he's 18 if he's non retractable by then . Then they will use alternative treatments -stretching techniques, steriod creams, small surgeries like a frenulocotmy for possible frenulm breve, dorsal slit that makes the foreskin more movable.

Circumcision is not just a removing of the foreskin it is also a frenulmocotmy which is the removal of the frenulm that is considered a 'g-spot for men. The frenulm is what attaches the foreskin to the penile shaft near the underside of the coronal rim.

Foreskin protects the glans from drying out as in words of kerantizing and gives enough lube for both partners if you go overseas you won't find any lube like KY jelly because Europe is a non-circing country just like some other places and when drying out of the penile glans is why a guy needs lube .

HIV & STD's are not prevented in circ'ed or non circ'ed boys after all how come overseas have lower rates of HIV while USA is a highly circumcised country has the Highest HIV & STD rate ? The only way to prevent that is to do not have sex with infected partners-that is russian roulette- , do not cheat on partners, stay with a partner that is STD-Free and a non cheater - condoms may help but they are not totally proofable since they break at times!

Neonate foreskins are reengineered to grow to sell to companies to put foreskin in aging facial creams high purchasers are Mary Kay & L'oreal .

What's funny of the look alike argument hey my son is a boy with his penis - i'm raising him on my own - i don't have a penis - he sees me using the bathroom. We don't look alike he's a boy -i'm a girl. He's young and I'm old .

His questions of concern is where is mommy penis ? lol

There are so much other things and in most cases clinics will try to solict the surgery even if insurance does or do not pay for it because they still get the money in their pocket for the procedure & the money for 'selling the foreskin to wrinkle companies! 300$ -500$ operation done so if a dr. did 10 circs for that price a day = 3,000- 5,000 $ /day profit

Then to include the buyers which could pay around 10,000-24,000 for for foreskin to use in their 'products' makes a mighty rich doctor.

So some doctors may still be living in the past of old school taught when there was belief of all issues that involved foreskin but what helped stopped some of the infections was when doctors/parents did not retract as in pull back their foreskin and stopped telling parents to do that but some doctors as if you read in Warning of Intact (non circ'ed ) Son's is how doctors actually forcibably retract their foreskin or even left over foreskin on circ'ed boys which can risk of causing issues because it 'creates a wound that creates an entry for bacteria!

I hope I wasn't sounding too critical it is kinda tough to hear a doctor talk of pro's and con's when in reality there are alot of con's that the doctors are not really aware of and they don't know of the full anantomy of foreskin -ridge band down the road which will help gliding motion for intimacy and gliding motion to help with retraction, has lots of nerves & blood vessels!


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

_re: "i don't get it"._

In order it to "get it" you have to have an unbiased & unsexist belief that everyone deserves to keep everything they are born with. NOT just girls.

_You_ were lucky enough to keep all of your genitalia intact, because you were born _a girl_. Boys genitals are not treated with the same respect that girls are and it is grossly unfair and unjust. Circ is medically unnecessary. There are countless doctors around the world who will back this up too.

Cutting off parts of another persons body which wont grow back (unlike your example of fingernails which DO grow back) is exclusively the decision of the individual who owns the penis or the vagina, not anyone else.


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## falcon (Jul 8, 2004)

Some babies don't cry when they get circed, they go into shock.

And even if they get pain meds during the ripping of the foreskin from the glans, and then the cutting, they still have to heal from a very painful surgery. Why put someone through that if they are already healthy???


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## KayCSmommy (Jan 9, 2007)

I am not arguing just wanted to know, obvissly this is a very strong subject. When he was circed, sex was not on my mind. ( I mean he is a baby, him have sex, masterbating not something I want to think about) No one told me that there was any sexual side effects, I wasnt even aware that there were such thing as non-circed penis. I grew up around all girls, (mom, sisters and I, and niece) never seen un un cired penis except for my sons. Hell yeah it freaked me out when I saw it, I thought something was wrong with him. I was told it was just a piece of extra skin. I dont regret anything, because everything went fine and is fine now. If I had another boy would I get him circ. I dont know, but I would definatly look more into the subject. Thanks For everones opions! Makes me think about stuff, I never second guess.


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## Microsoap (Dec 29, 2005)

* READ THIS NOW!!!:
http://forum.fathermag.com/circ/066/...s/159878.shtml

* 12 reasobs to say no to circumcision (logical):
http://www.naturalfamilyonline.com/5...rcumcision.htm

*a slide presentation of the history of circumcision (easy, just read and follow the red arrows):
http://www.icgi.org/medicalization_o...ion.htm#Page_1

* and:
http://www.byronchild.com/arts27.htm


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## kldliam (Jan 7, 2006)

Quote:

OP: Hell yeah it freaked me out when I saw it, I thought something was wrong with him. I was told it was just a piece of extra skin. I dont regret anything, because everything went fine and is fine now.
It is a sad commentary that when a girl is born, she is pronounced perfect in every way, but when a little boy is born his mother & 1/2 of society thinks he has a birth defect that needs to be surgically corrected asap. The human body doesn't need to be redesigned, everything is put there for a good reason. Do a little research and you will find that the male prepuce actually serves a darn good purpose.

www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org

_It's so nice_ that you have "no regrets" but then, you don't have to live with the consequences of that decision or the penis, *your son does.*


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KayCSmommy* 
I am not arguing just wanted to know, obvissly this is a very strong subject. When he was circed, sex was not on my mind. ( I mean he is a baby, him have sex, masterbating not something I want to think about) No one told me that there was any sexual side effects, I wasnt even aware that there were such thing as non-circed penis. I grew up around all girls, (mom, sisters and I, and niece) never seen un un cired penis except for my sons. Hell yeah it freaked me out when I saw it, I thought something was wrong with him. I was told it was just a piece of extra skin. I dont regret anything, because everything went fine and is fine now. If I had another boy would I get him circ. I dont know, but I would definatly look more into the subject. Thanks For everones opions! Makes me think about stuff, I never second guess.

The penis is a man's primary sex organ. Circumcision removes 1/3-1/2 of the skin on the penis. How could cutting a healthy, normal, standard part of it *not* have sexual side effects? We don't generally think of our children as sexual beings, but the reality is they're future autonomous adults. The fact that most American parents aren't considering this amputative surgery's effects on a future man's penis, without his consent, before he can assert his preferrences or have any say in the matter is precisely why circumcision doesn't belong within the realm of parental choice.

Just because he didn't experience immediate, surgical complications like hemorrhage, infection, or death doesn't mean he's "fine". His foreskin-and all of it's functions-are gone forever. It would be a good idea to start researching "foreskin restoration" so that when he's older you can apologize and explain his options. Foreskin restoration involves stretching the remaining shaft skin to recreate a covering for the penis. This helps soften up some of the dried, thickened skin, helping to restore *some* of the lost sensitivity. Some 100,000 men have gone through this type of non-surgical restoration.

Second guessing, especially when we discover something we didn't know before, is a very good thing. As parents, we learn as we go and none of us are perfect. It's essential to the health, happiness, and wellbeing of any future children we're blessed with to be honest about reconsidering our past parenting decisions so we can avoid making the same mistakes again.

Kudos to you for asking these questions and reading through the answers with an open mind!









Jen


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## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

KayCSmommy, circumcision started in USA 100 years ago.

Why?

To stop boys from masturbating.

Most of the world's men are intact, over 80% in fact. If we leave religious circumcision out, only USA circumcise baby boys.

This is where it all started;

"There can be no doubt of [masturbation's] injurous effect, and of the proneness to practice it on the part of children with defective brains. Circumcision should always be practiced. It may be necessary to make the genitals so sore by blistering fluids that pain results from attempts to rub the parts." -- Angel Money. Treatment of Disease In Children.Philidelphia: P. Blakiston, 1887. p.421

As far as foreskin itself.

Here is an excellent collection of info from Fathering Magazine;
http://www.fathermag.com/health/circ/

Here is another excellent information link - read the anatomy section. After that, you can hardly call foreskin 'just a piece of skin'?

http://www.infocirc.org/welcome.htm

Good luck with your research.


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## ~Mamaterra~ (Jul 5, 2006)

KayCSmommy,

All of the pp are being very gentle with you here although it may not feel like that...please understand that this is a very emotionally charged issue.

What stood out to me in your posts was the number of time that this question was posed to you during your stay at the hospital and at the clinic. Mamas, refresh my memory but isn't the APA against circumcision?


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## utuss (Sep 12, 2006)

KCSmommy,

I only recently was enlightened to this topic....and it had a lot had to do with my 2nd pregnancy (since I had a girl for #1, I didn't have to think about it). And honestly, while I knew about the physical difference between a circumcised penis vs. an intact penis, I didn't take the time to become informed of this topic until I bumped into this particular website and this topic matter.

I asked many of my female friends with baby boys if they circumcised, to get their opinion, and they reported back all the misinformation that many people believe: hygenic reasons, locker room theory, daddy looks different theory....and well, that's all they came up with. But I had a male friend who told me he WASN'T circumcised, and he told me about the sexual pleasure, etc....it was a different viewpoint. I listened to their reasons for their decisions, and when I started conducting more research, I realized that there really isn't a true medical reason to circumcise. I was able to inform myself ahead of time, something it sounds like you weren't really able to do, since you didn't know all the pros and cons.

I think it is actually a GOOD thing you stopped by and asked your question...because I think many people never question it so therefore they just mosey along with the same thought in their head....never really finding out why, but just accepting it. But you DID stop by, and you asked. So if you have another little boy, give the subject true consideration. If you have other friend's who are pondering this topic, you at least know the alternatives, the WHY NOT to circumcise. Good luck with your research!


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## MCatLvrMom2A&X (Nov 18, 2004)

No medical organisation in the world including the AAP endorce circ now. If you were told that circ was healthier you were lied to. 80% of the worlds population is intact with no issues. My dh was circed like so many others he also suffers from common complications of circ that no one tells you about. Skin bridges, hair pulled up onto the shaft from to much skin removed. I could go on and on but the point is that every man who is circed looses between 30-50% of his potential to feel pleasure because when the foreskin is removed it takes off that much skin depending on the type of circ and who does it.

Here are some FACTS about what is lost when a boy is circed. I know it is a long list but please take the time to read it.

Reasons to leave your son intact:

- The owner of the penis should be the one to decide what to do with it.

-The foreskin, not the head, is the most sensitive part of the normal, intact penis.

- The movable shaft skin of an intact penis facilitates intercourse, reducing friction and prolonging pleasurable sex for both male and female.

- The foreskin aids in foreplay; lubricants are optional.

- An intact penis will have no circumcision scar, will often have less hair drawn up onto it shaft, and will on average be somewhat larger than a circumcised penis.

- The foreskin protects and lubricates the head or "glans" of the penis for the life of its owner. The glans or the head of the penis was never meant to be a external organ it should be inside the foreskin to protect it and keep it sensitive.

-80-85% of the world's male population has intact genitals, including nearly all European males (please note that HIV/AIDS rates are actually lower in Europe than in America). Circumcision does NOT prevent AIDS wearing a condom does.

- 80% of the world's circumcised men in the world are in the US. 80% of the world's Viagra sales are in the US. Coincidence?

- When people from non circumcising countries hear that we in the USA still do it they are usually shocked, and often don't believe it to be true.

- Care of the intact infant penis is actually much easier as there is no wound care, you just wash it like a finger, it should never be retracted by anyone other than the child. The age it becomes retractable varies greatly normal range is childhood to adulthood.

- *The foreskin contains three to four feet of blood vessels, 240 feet of nerves, and 10-20,000 specialized nerve endings.*

-Male circumcision permanently diminishes the sexual feelings for both male and female.

- When the foreskin is removed 30-50% of sexual pleasure goes with it. Because 30-50% of the total penile skin is removed during a RIC depending on the Dr. and the type of circumcision that is done.

-The circumcision rate in the USA has fallen from 90% in 1970 to roughly 56% today.

- Circumcisions was originally introduced in the country in the late 1800s to prevent masturbation. It has since been touted as the cure for all sorts of ailments - none of which are scientifically provable are even remotely true.

- Cutting off the foreskin cuts off the most sensitive, erotic, pleasurable part of a man's body. The foreskin plays a very important role in sex. Men who were circumcised later in life compare circed sex/intact sex to black and white TV and plasma TV. HUGE DIFFERENCE.
-Circumcision is almost NEVER medically necessary. The only true medical reasons for circ are, frostbite, gangrene and cancer (all of those would be extremely rare) *The incidence for necessary medical circumcisions is less that 0.05%.*

- No medical organization anywhere recommends routine infant circ.
http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/

- Circumcision is EXTREMELY painful, even if anesthetic is administered. Studies have proved that babies feel pain even more acutely than an adult would. It is a very great breech of trust for a baby to be taken from his parents and cut. It is very violating. Long after any anesthesia that *might*(most only get a sugar dipped rag or paci to suck on) have been used wears off there is still a raw open wound sitting in urine and feces with no pain relief.

-The intact penis, if left alone, has no greater risk for UTI's, STD's, Penile Cancer, HIV, causing Cervical Cancer in women.

UTI myth http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/UTI/
http://www.nocirc.org/statements/breastfeeding.php

Quote:

In fact, UTI's are so rare in any case that, using Wiswell's data, 50 to 100 healthy boys would have to be circumcised in order to prevent a UTI from developing in only one patient. (Using more recent data from a better-controlled study, the number of unnecessary operations needed to prevent one hospital admission for UTI would jump to 195.
http://www.cirp.org/news/1997.12.22_PhysiciansWeekly/
FORESKINS: Seek Elsewhere for Infants' Urinary Tract Infections

http://www.cps.ca/english/statements...ION%20OF%20UTI
UTI Neonatal circumcision revisited

http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/UTI/mueller/
THE INCIDENCE OF GENITOURINARY ABNORMALITIES IN CIRCUMCISED AND UNCIRCUMCISED BOYS PRESENTING WITH AN INITIAL URINARY TRACT INFECTION BY 6 MONTHS OF AGE
- Girls have a much greater risk of UTIs, yet we wouldn't cut off their clitoris or labia to prevent them.

Cancer Society:http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/co...evented_35.asp

Quote:

In the past, circumcision has been suggested as a way to prevent penile cancer. This suggestion was based on studies that reported much lower penile cancer rates among circumcised men than among uncircumcised men. However, most researchers now believe those studies were flawed because they failed to consider other factors that are now known to affect penile cancer risk.
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/cancer/

Quote:

Gellis (1978) said there are more deaths from circumcision than from cancer of the penis.8
Boczko et al . found numerous reports of penile cancer in circumcised men, thus conclusively disproving Wolbarst's false claims of protection from penile cancer by circumcision.9
In "Circumcision: An American Health Fallacy," Edward Wallerstein writes14: "If infant circumcision reduces penile cancer we could expect to see proportionately less penile cancer in circumcising nations as compared to non-circumcising ones. No such difference is found."

Quote:

******* established quite clearly that there was little evidence to support a relationship between lack of circumcision and penile cancer, cervical cancer, or cancer of the prostate in 1970 but he was unable to identify the causative agent at that time,6 while Leitch did the same in Australia.
Circumcision and AIDS/HIV
http://www.circumstitions.com/HIV.html
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/HIV/ http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab003362.html
http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...Statement.html

Comparison of North America to other non-circ countries HIV status
http://www.avert.org/america.htm
http://www.avert.org/worldstats.htm
- The times the intact penis has trouble are when it is forcefully retracted before it is ready. The penis should only be retracted by its owner, when he's ready. It is normal to not be retractable until after puberty. It is not a problem.

- Circumcision is SURGERY and as such poses significant risks of infection to the wound.
Possible complications include but are not limited to:
Infections;
Botched circumcisions that have to be redone;
To tight circumcisions that cause extreme pain with erection;
Hair on the shaft;
Loss of sensation in the glans (head), it becomes keratinized (hardened) without the foreskin;
Amputation of the part or all of the penis;
Ruptured stomach, bladder, and or intestines from crying so hard;
Skin bridges
Adhesions
Scaring on the penis shaft
Meatal Stenosis http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/persad/
DEATH
and much much more.
It is estemated that between 10-15% of all males will have at least 1 or more of the complications listed above. But none of these side effects are present when leaving a boy intact.

Links of pictures Warning graphic pictures
http://www.circumstitions.com/Restric/Botched1sb.html
http://www.noharmm.org/IDcirc.htm

- There are NO medical benefits with routine infant circumcision. It is a cosmetic surgery, and as such more insurance companies will NOT pay for it.

- Circumcision is big business in the US. Several billions of dollars every year. Doctors are very invested in keeping the circumcision myths alive.

- A single doctor can make $20,000 a year doing circumcisions.

- A little known fact is that foreskins are then resold to the highest bidder. They are used in cosmetics, skin growth for grafting, cancer treatments and much more. The after life of foreskins is also a multi billion dollar a year industry. Parents are not told about this. There is no informed consent. Certainly the foreskins owner doesn't have a say in the matter.

- "Every boy born in the US has a $300 coupon attached to his foreskin. All you have to do is cut it off to redeem."

- Circumcision should only be performed on consenting adults who know all that is entailed.

-What if your son wants his foreskin?

- A lot of men are very angry when they find out the truth and feel very violated. (like my husband.)

- How would you feel if someone cut off your clitoris and labia without asking you? They do it in Africa all the time. We are horrified when little girls are mutilated. Why not when little boys?

- It causes immense trauma & physical pain to a brand new baby who just had to undergo birth. Often times a baby will suddenly cease crying and so the Doctors say it doesn't hurt them. It does - they are in shock.

- Smegma isn't bad or gross. It is the Greek word for soap. Women have it too. It helps keep everything clean and healthy. No intact boy should be forcefully retracted just to clean it out. It's supposed to be there!

- When they separate the foreskin from the glans it is similar to ripping off your fingernails. Than they crush the foreskin and cut it off - most often with NO pain relief. *They also stimulate an erection so they "know where to cut." A boys first sexual experience is one of great pain and trauma.*

Common myths you may hear from others and even Dr's:

http://www.coloradonocirc.org/myths.php

Why men may insist on circumcision article

http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

Side by side comparison of MGM & FGM
http://www.circumstitions.com/FGMvsMGM.html


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Hi, new poster, sorry, I haven't read all the responses on the 2nd page yet, pardon me if this was already said.

Just wanted to put this out there, removing the foreskin of a little boy in nerve endings is the equivalent of removing a baby girl's clitoris along with other vital parts of a little girl.

No one here in this country knows this because this is a country of mostly circumcised men. If it was reversed, if it was routine for doctors to tell you of all the health benefits of removing your little girls clitoris, and you did it, and you had yours removed before you could remember, and every other woman you knew had theirs removed before they could remember, most women would not be aware of how sensitive the clitoris and how pleasurable the clitoris makes sex.

Thus is the same with boys. I know this because my husband is circumcised. He is going through the process of restoring his foreskin. He never thought he missed it, it wasn't a big deal to him. It was hard for me to convince him to give it a shot.

NOw that he is restoring, there are sensations there that he never dreamed he could ever have during sex. And yet, even so, it will never be the same as if it would have been if he had had his natural foreskin.

all baby boys deserve the right to experience their body the way it is at birth, and it is not right for doctors to try to convince moms that they should have parts of their baby boys removed. The same rights of girls should apply to boys.

sorry, it's late, my toddler is up, if that didn't make any sense.


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## broodymama (May 3, 2004)

So, the clinic that circ'd your son, will they also circumcise my daughter?

My DD's right to genital integrity is protected by law, not so for my son. It's a human rights violation either way around.


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## BabyJay'sMom (Jul 21, 2006)

Boys are born with a foreskin for a reason, otherwise they would be born without one! That was enough "proof" of the importance of leaving him intact that I needed. And I too didn't think of the "sexual" nature of my infant son, I only took into consideration that God made him perfect, who was I to believe that he needing "fixing?" It just makes me so sad that you weren't given the information you needed to make an informed choice.


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

I just have one question...

*What if your son is extremely unhappy with his penis when he's older because of his circ?*

Lots of men feel violated and robbed because of circumcision. Just go to www.norm.org to see what thousands of men go through in order to try to get their penises somewhat back to normal (although all the nerve endings, the ridged band, and th frenulum can never be restored). It is so sad to see this society act like it's "no big deal". But it IS a big deal to a LOT of men. What's done is done for your son. I hope you think about what your future sons would want. At least boys kept intact will have a CHOICE. PLEASE think about what your sons would want, not what you want. It's NOT YOUR PENIS.

And I really hate to break it to you, but your son was not given pain relief. If they used any pain relief, they did not give it time to take effect, hence making it worthless. The procedure itself takes 10-15 minutes. And it's usually done in a soundproof room. You weren't allowed to go back because you would have freaked when your son started shrieking. They brought him back to you sleeping probably, right? He wasn't sleeping. His tiny body shut down from being in so much pain.

And really, you don't know that your son's penis is fine. You won't know that until he's fully grown and chances are, he's not going to tell you if there's something wrong with it at that point. My husband's penis skin SPLIT OPEN multiple times when he was a teenager, because he wasn't left with enough skin to grow into. But I guess that's no big deal huh? Of course, he didn't tell his mom. He didn't tell anybody. Until me. It's obvious that it's a result of his circumcision, because of where the scar is. That could be your son one day. Please spare your future sons the pain. Both the physical and the emotional.


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## KayCSmommy (Jan 9, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bandgeek* 
I just have one question...

*What if your son is extremely unhappy with his penis when he's older because of his circ?*

Lots of men feel violated and robbed because of circumcision. Just go to www.norm.org to see what thousands of men go through in order to try to get their penises somewhat back to normal (although all the nerve endings, the ridged band, and th frenulum can never be restored). It is so sad to see this society act like it's "no big deal". But it IS a big deal to a LOT of men. What's done is done for your son. I hope you think about what your future sons would want. At least boys kept intact will have a CHOICE. PLEASE think about what your sons would want, not what you want. It's NOT YOUR PENIS.

And I really hate to break it to you, but your son was not given pain relief. If they used any pain relief, they did not give it time to take effect, hence making it worthless. The procedure itself takes 10-15 minutes. And it's usually done in a soundproof room. You weren't allowed to go back because you would have freaked when your son started shrieking. They brought him back to you sleeping probably, right? He wasn't sleeping. His tiny body shut down from being in so much pain.

And really, you don't know that your son's penis is fine. You won't know that until he's fully grown and chances are, he's not going to tell you if there's something wrong with it at that point. My husband's penis skin SPLIT OPEN multiple times when he was a teenager, because he wasn't left with enough skin to grow into. But I guess that's no big deal huh? Of course, he didn't tell his mom. He didn't tell anybody. Until me. It's obvious that it's a result of his circumcision, because of where the scar is. That could be your son one day. Please spare your future sons the pain. Both the physical and the emotional.


Thank You for answering my questions, I understand both sides. Which was not explained to me, at either the hospital or the clinic. Maybe instead of being angry with people like me, that were never informed. You should get the word out there to other Moms. Being angry at something that is already done, does no good, giving preventive positive info to others is!
I hate to argue, but I was in the room when my son was circumsised. If you would have read all my threads you would have known this.
I was standing by the door with a nurse. The doctor explained everything that she was doing. They did give him pain killer, it was general anesthetics, (like what the dentist does to work on your teeth) it doesnt take long for it took work. He jumped when they gave him the anesthetic, that was his only negitive reaction. He never once cried, or acted stressed or unhappy. He just watched the dr and nurses, as they worked. Afterwards she showed me how to care for him for the next few days. Then I wrapped him back up and cuddled him. (While crying)
Your right I didnt think about his future sex life, because I wasnt aware there was an affect on it. I thought that the circumsised penis was the way that it was suposed to be, so I never saw it as a unnessary prodedure. I was told that it was normal easy in and out surgery, with little to no side effects. That it was easier for them to care for and keep themselves clean with a circ, that they would be less likely to have, UTI's, STD's, and better for them. Verses leaving it as is with no benifits, and with no, to very little side effects. So I chose what I thought was best. I have no regrets, because living with regrets, does you no good, learn from it and then live. (Dont cry over spilt milk)
Believe me if my son comes to me one day and asks why he had the surgery, then I will tell him the same thing I am telling you.
As for now he is a perfectly WHOLE, and happy baby. There is nothing wrong with him. He is the same baby before and after.

Thanks for answering my questions, and all the information I should have known, but didnt! Have a nice night!


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## maygee (Dec 22, 2006)

This thread makes me really really sad.
I wonder why it is that there is such outrage toward fgm, but not towards mgm. Probably redundant, off topic, sorry- it just breaks my heart that it's okay to cut off parts of babies for no reason and then sell those parts to companies. And that people do it over and over again so that their babies will "match." Really disturbing.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

You mean "local anesthetic", general is when someone is put to sleep, completely unconscious. Regardless...Regret isn't a bad thing. Admitting you didn't have all the information on which to make an informed choice isn't a bad thing, either. We all make mistakes. Now you know that circumcision does have a tremendous impact on future sexuality, obviously it would have been better to leave the decision to the person the penis belongs to and who will live with the results of such a decision his entire life. Denial doesn't benefit anybody. Your son is missing part of his penis; his penis isn't whole. Little girls who are missing bits of their genitals as a result of FGM aren't whole either. Your son lost something that most men find extremely valuable.

Regret doesn't mean beating yourself up. It doesn't make you bad mother. It makes you an honest, conscientious person who admits to their mistakes and strives to make better choices in the future. Admitting a mistake takes courage, and sets an excellent example for our children: We're only human.

When you know better, you do better.

Jen


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## Cutie Patootie (Feb 29, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KayCSmommy* 
I thought that the circumsised penis was the way that it was suposed to be, so I never saw it as a unnessary prodedure.

Okay, not being snarky, but this is the part that really _really_ gets me...regardless if you had never seen an uncircumcised penis before, why on earth would a person think that a healthy _whole_ baby is born with one of his parts not how they are "supposed to be"? I just don't understand it. What do people tell themselves to allow themselves to believe that every baby boy born in the world needs to have a "piece of skin" removed from a part of his body? I'm not talking about religion. I'm talking about the ignorance behind it all, blindly listening to the medical "authority" and doing no research on ones own...and the total callousness for the trauma and lack of bodily integrity given to one so small.







It really breaks my heart. I just have to keep telling myself that this will change one day in America. One day it will not be anymore legal to chop off a piece of my son than it is to chop off a piece of my daughter.


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

I'm sorry, I thought I read that they wouldn't let you in the room. I will go back and re-read the thread.

I'm not angry about what is done. What makes me angry is when people are presented with facts and claim they will still do it again. You were horribly misinformed the first time. But to choose to do it again, when you know the inevitable consequences is unfogivable, in my eyes. The only reason I bothered posting all that is because you said you weren't sure about future sons. If you had said, "oh, I was wrong, I won't do it again," I would have congratulated you on your decision and left it at that. But since I have experiences and information to share that could possibly change someone's mind, I share it. It's important for people to realize how much circ can damage a man. I tell everyone who is pro-circ, or on the fence, the same thing I've told you, so don't feel like I'm singling you out. The only way people will know is if we keep talking about it.


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## eepster (Sep 20, 2006)

What I'd like to know is how this clinic gets away with giving out such blatantly inacurate information.


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## bandgeek (Sep 12, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *eepster* 
What I'd like to know is how this clinic gets away with giving out such blatantly inacurate information.









The same way the rest of the clinics, hospitals, and doctor's offices in this country get away with it....because people believe it. The only way it'll stop is if they start getting sued...which will eventually happen. This generation, I suspect. Our kids will have the right information and they will go back and demand answers as to why their parents were tricked into signing them up for unnecessary surgery.


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## ~Megan~ (Nov 7, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KayCSmommy* 
everything went fine and is fine now.

Here we reach a fundamental difference. He is not "fine". Fine implies that everything is healthy and good. When you remove the foreskin you are crippling the function of the penis. Sure, a man can still have sex if he is circed however the penis does not work the way its intended to work. Read some of the links above for more info on this.

He may not have cried during the process, many babies don't because they go into shock and fall asleep as a way to deal with the tremendous pain. Even if a numbing cream is used the baby still feels the circumcision because the cream only numbs the outside and does nothing to prevent the feeling of the head of the penis as the foreskin is being seperated nor does it numb the inside of the foreskin at all.

Unfortunately, most doctors don't understand this at all either. Many of them have very little experience with an intact penis and they were not taught anything in medical school. They report tiny possible medical benefits and completely ignore and downplay the impact of the surgery and the long term problems associated with altering the penis.

I hope you find your way on this journey of knowledge. It took me a long time to understand and absorb it all. I do hope you will keep your mind open and learn.


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## kxsiven (Nov 2, 2004)

*As for now he is a perfectly WHOLE, and happy baby. There is nothing wrong with him. He is the same baby before and after.*

you have to understand that people are not angry to you but angry to money greedy doctors and hospitals who continue to slice babyboys. It is easy money(+the resale value of foreskins to cosmetic&medical industry).

If you had born in any other country(outside religious circumcision)you would have not even heard the possibility of circumcision.

We indeed are trying to get the word out. Individual people + many many organisations fighting day and night to get the truth out there.

The truth is however that your son is not whole. He will never experience the sex how nature intended, he has lost the most sensitive part of his body. The final results of his circumcision do not show up until he is adult.
You do not carry the consequencies of his circumcision, your son will.
I am not saying this to hurt you or to be mean.
Please study the issue and maybe you can join with everyone who is fighting against this madness.
We have achieved a lot. While only few years ago circ rates in USA were near 100%, they have dropped to near 50%.
All this has happened because of individuals who are giving their time and money to stop the mutilation.

Attorneys for the Rights of the Child
http://www.arclaw.org/

Mothers against circumcision
http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/fleiss.html

Doctors opposing circumcision
http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/

Nurses for the Rights of the Child
http://nurses.cirp.org/

Students for Genital Integrity
http://www.studentsforgenitalintegrity.org/

AAP
http://www.medem.com/MedLB/article_d...DD&sub_cat=108

http://www.math.missouri.edu/~rich/MGM/primer.html

http://www.hisbodyhisrights.net/

Just to mention few..


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## anony (Jun 19, 2005)

No one is angry at YOU, KayCSmommy, it's just we're angry at the system that allows these things to continue because of the financial reward. And if it hurts the babies, well who cares because they can't speak and form protest groups, etc. That is what many medical personnel think. In countries where circ is declining, some still offer it and use the excuse of "If the parents want it, it is their decision and I perform the surgery." Sure, that may seem neutral and neat and professional but it is practice completely devoid of ethics or the well-being of the child in mind.

Heck, I bet there are doctors in Africa who don't champion the positives of FGM (like there are any you might say, ah but in those nations they offer up the same old "benefits" we use) but will still perform it cause it's up to the parents. Here, everyone gets all outraged that a doctor could do their job with such a lack of ethics and conscience. But it goes both ways, you see. It is unfortunately left to adults to do the job for these boys who cannot speak. Because if you tried doing it to a conscious toddler who can speak and fend for themselves somewhat, the child would immediately freak out.

And 99% of the population knows that, so some choose to do it at birth because they won't remember the trauma. Now that's just cruel and a prime example of denial. When someone despite all the evidence still maintains the circ didn't hurt their son or alter his physical apperance, it's shrugging off the reality. You can pass it off but it'd be neglecting the feelings, the soul even, of your newborn. And to do it to other sons just strengthens the likelihood that the cycle of violence will continue.

Still, with rates falling, maybe one day a son like yours will not do the same to his son whether it be because medicare doesn't cover it, it has declined in popularity in the region or because he realized the facts and felt it unecessary. No matter how bad pro-circ forces try to weild their profiteering might to prolong circ, the tide is turning in America and it's leading circumcision to becoming a rarity (at the rate it's been falling over the last 25 years in the U.S., it is projected to be at just 10% by 2050, likely at around 1/3 by the time most of today's boys born today reach fathering age).

You'll see the circ-happy community go to extreme lengths in the future, probably they'll find some epidemic or disease and they'll keep claiming AIDS, STDs and HPV are caused by it, etc. (even though the mostly circ'd USA is one of the world leaders in most of these disease rates while the mostly intact male pop. of Europe has made for way lower levels). And they can make facts lie to prove this, but believe me the intactivists aren't skewing many facts and even if they were, there are so many out there that just can't be denied because studies and analyses by legitemate bodies have shown the truth. And just cause you can't see the change from the outside or re-live the procedure doesn't mean it didn't happen and didn't wreak havoc on his little body.

It'd be a nightmare scenario for anyone to go through circ and the after-effects are almost as bad as they can hurt psychologically. But here in the "advanced" American medical society, the rudimentary genital cutting down in third world countries is somehow the only real human rights violation? Look, if they had our equipment they'd do it in the more organized way, would that not please those voices? Hell, it could be made up that girls can be cut at birth with the simplest of procedures (not the infibulation extremity) but it wouldn't hurt. Even fooled into thinking that, most of society would object to female circ because "it takes away an essential part of the female anatomy."

And that is a core reason intactivists dennounce MGM but all we hear is comparison between the male foreskin and the coxic bone or the appendix even though all animals have evolved to have foreskins. Many people have been brainwashed into believing a foreskin is such a harmful piece of skin that is so difficult to care for and that a wound is somehow cleaner (even if the possibility of sexual side effects, adhesions and meatal stenosis presents itself-all happen with more far-reaching effect than the odd infection, UTI or other ailment). It's such hogwash when you take a good look at it all.

And to imagine the absolute trauma, let me put it this way; obviously a woman or man would find it torture to be tied down and have their big toe nail ripped out (what it feels like to have the adhered foreskin seperated from the head). Try having that feeling plus the unanesthisized (or weakly at that) feeling of your foreskin being shorn off your genitals in whatever way (there are more methods than one sadly enough). Oh, and to add to this you just entered a strange new place in the past few days, can't talk, can't walk, can barely do anything but scream and flail around. Oh but BTW, your legs (and maybe arms) are tied down so you don't squirm. Christ, a surgery like this could be put into a movie like Hostel and not seem out of place at all when you really think about it.

Before I ever knew the true horror of circ, it just seemed like a funny little thing made light of by comedy routines and Jewish jokes. But it's no laughing matter in the end and all the people here at CAC have discovered that it's way too much hoopla to go through to want your boy cut. It's a better and safer route to leave him intact because once a circ is done, there's no going back all the way (restoration doesn't restore all of the sensation that was there and it does not come overnight either). At least when you're intact, you can treat your problems or make the decision if it was truly wanted. But in a society where all people saw MGM this way, the social pressures and conformity crap would be moot and even more intact males would be less willing to part with their foreskin than is seen now in a mostly circ'd nation such as the U.S.


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## Fi. (May 3, 2005)

gorgeous post anony. you summed it up perfectly.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *maygee* 
I wonder why it is that there is such outrage toward fgm, but not towards mgm.

Racism.


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## Pandora114 (Apr 21, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Racism.

no...

Sexism.

ETA: Because no one gives a rat's butt about the prepubescent boys in Africa dying in the bush after ritual coming of age circumcisions, but everyone gives a rats butt about girls dying in the bush after ritual coming of age circumcisions.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Yeah, because sexism against men is such a big problem, but racism against people of colour is not.







:


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## nd_deadhead (Sep 22, 2005)

Hi KCSmommy, I hope you're still reading this thread!

I am appalled that your doctor told you that a circumcised penis is cleaner (it isn't - circumcised men still have to wash their genitals) and reduces the risk of UTIs and STDs. I am especially appalled that you were told there were very few side effects!

NO medical organization in the world recommends infant circumcision for medical benefits. Your doctor LIED to you. Perhaps he has a boat payment to make?

Your son may be "fine" now, but you still have to watch for complications. Most babies experience some form of adhesions - when the foreskin is torn from the head of the penis, the remaining foreskin tries to heal itself, forming attachments between the skin and the head. DO NOT try to separate these attachments, or let your doctor do it! They will almost surely resolve on their own in a few years. Tearing them is painful, and opens a site for infection.

In the next couple of years you may notice that your son urinates more forcefully. This is caused by a narrowing of the opening of the penis, caused by friction from diapers (normally the opening is protected by the foreskin). This condition is called meatal stenosis, and if it is severe enought o block urine flow, your son would need surgery to correct it.

As your son grows, naturally his penis will grow too. Some men have too much foreskin cut off, and don't have enough skin left to accomodate an erection. You might not ever know if this is the case with your son - he might not want to tell you about it. But it is a very real complication of circumcision - one that doesn't present itself until puberty or later.

I strongly recommend that you find yourself a different doctor. If he is so misinformed about the normal penis, and so out of touch with the policies of medical organizations, what ELSE is he going to be wrong about?

I don't blame you for circumcising your son. You told your medical "professionals" that you didn't know anything about circumcision or the intact penis - and they completely failed to give you accurate information. But now that you're here, you have the opportunity to learn, and hopefully teach others.

Best wishes to you!


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## *Jessica* (Jun 10, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *kldliam* 
It is a sad commentary that when a girl is born, she is pronounced perfect in every way, but when a little boy is born his mother & 1/2 of society thinks he has a birth defect that needs to be surgically corrected asap. The human body doesn't need to be redesigned, everything is put there for a good reason.

Beautifully put!


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## onlyboys (Feb 12, 2004)

Since you are here, one can assume that you WANT to learn.

I challenge you to do it--learn all you can about circumcision. Read the links provided to you. Watch Penn and Teller's Bullshit with the circ episode. Learn what you allowed to happen to your son.

When you do all that, I cannot imagine a single person who could look upon their actions and not have anger and regret.


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## falcon (Jul 8, 2004)

I wanted to add that you're going to get mostly women's responses on this site (it is _mothering_ after all), but there are other anti-circ places on the web where you can find a good number of men who wish that their parents did more thorough research and left their bodies whole. (The definition of whole being with all their body parts still attached to their bodies, including the foreskin.) My dh had what would be considered by the drs in this country a "successful" circ







: but is pretty sad and angry that his parents didn't just leave him alone.

If you leave your son intact, he can make the decision for himself whether or not to stay that way when he is an adult. The foreskin will have naturally separated from the glans by then, so a dr won't need to do the "ripping" step, only the cutting. And an adult can decide exactly how much pain medication he needs after surgery to be comfortable.

It seems that you must be interested in AP/gentle parenting if you are visiting this site. Opting to put a healthy baby under the knife doesn't foster trust and attachment. I know it is too late to save your first born, but my dh was a second born son, so I wish more than anything his parents gave this issue some deep thought the second time around, and left his body alone.


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## QueenOfThePride (May 26, 2005)

KayCSmommy, I'm really curious what exactly the doctor told you were the pros and cons of circumcision and the pros and cons of leaving well enough alone. I don't understand how it was an easy decision. If you really had all the facts of both sides, it would not have been an easy decision. Do you still have the handout the dr. gave you? Do you remember what it said?


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## wytchywoman (Nov 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KayCSmommy* 
I really dont understand what is wrong with circs? I left the hospital with my son uncir. I had it done in a clinic at one week old. They sat down and talked to me both at the hospital, and the clinic before it was done. Handed me a sheets of pros and cons, both ways. It made perfect sense for health purposes to have it done. They did it in the other room, took about 10 mins. My son didn't cry or anything the whole time, and never did. It was easy to care for, and really easy to keep it clean. So I dont get it, whats so wrong with it?

Circs do not serve any purpose at all. If you think about it, why did you circ your son? Because "everyone else does it"? There is no medical reason behind this invasive surgical procedure. Boys are born with a foreskin for a reason. I believe circ is the same thing as taking the tonsils out just because, or removing the appendix just because. Would you consent to having that done to your 1 week old baby? What if he were a girl, would you consent to female genital mutilation? That's what circ is for a boy, genital mutilation. BTW, just because your son was fortunate enough to not have any complications does not mean that they don't exist. Complications from circs are very common and cause a lot of problems on down the road for these boys.

Namaste,

Michelle


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## Inspired007 (Aug 25, 2006)

My friend has a son who got reoccuring urinary tract infections b/c his father didn't want him circumsized. The last straw for her was when he had to be hospitalized for the latest one. After that, he was one years old, she put her foot down and went ahead with the procedure. He is now two and a half and hasn't had a UTI since. There is always a case for and always a case against. Do what you feel is right.


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Dude, you don't get a UTI from not being circed. I had UTIs as a baby. Should they have cut off my clit?


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## Inspired007 (Aug 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wytchywoman* 
Circs do not serve any purpose at all. If you think about it, why did you circ your son? Because "everyone else does it"? There is no medical reason behind this invasive surgical procedure. Boys are born with a foreskin for a reason. I believe circ is the same thing as taking the tonsils out just because, or removing the appendix just because. Would you consent to having that done to your 1 week old baby? What if he were a girl, would you consent to female genital mutilation? That's what circ is for a boy, genital mutilation. BTW, just because your son was fortunate enough to not have any complications does not mean that they don't exist. Complications from circs are very common and cause a lot of problems on down the road for these boys.

Namaste,

Michelle

There is a reason to remove tonsils and appendix; because they've gotten infected or if the appendix is about to burst. It's funny that you mention tonsils and appendix b/c they actually serve about as much purpose as a foreskin. Our bodies (and our environments) are products of evolution. At one point, tonsils and the appendix (and foreskin for that matter) were needed and served a great purpose. Now, evolution has dictated that these anatomical parts can cause us grief. Tonsils are removed b/c children and adults are sometimes prone to horrible reoccuring strep infections; People sometimes remove their appendixes b/c of infection as well (when they rupture). I know of one really severe case for the removal of foreskin (as I described above) so I know that there is a reason for it, but since every little boy will be different you'll never know if yours will be the one to suffer problems or not. I've only had one case of tonsilitis in my life so there was no need to remove my tonsils but you can't discount the thousands of children who have in fact suffered. And since the benefit of removing the foreskin can outweigh the risk then I understand why many parents make this decision.

I do agree that no one should just undergo something like this without understanding why. To say that "everybody else does it" would be stupid in any situation. Why do you wash your car? "Everybody else does it?"


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## wytchywoman (Nov 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Inspired007* 
My friend has a son who got reoccuring urinary tract infections b/c his father didn't want him circumsized. The last straw for her was when he had to be hospitalized for the latest one. After that, he was one years old, she put her foot down and went ahead with the procedure. He is now two and a half and hasn't had a UTI since. There is always a case for and always a case against. Do what you feel is right.









Was anyone forcibly retracting the foreskin during this time period and causing continuous injury to that area? An intact foreskin actually protects the opening of the urethra and keeps bacteria from entering the system, thereby preventing UTI's , not causing them. No offense, but what you posted makes no sense to me.

Namaste,

Michelle


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

Foreskins are not tonsils, or toenails. Just like breastfeeding is not like peeing in public. Bad analogy.


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## Inspired007 (Aug 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Dude, you don't get a UTI from not being circed. I had UTIs as a baby. Should they have cut off my clit?

You can certainly get UTI from not being circed. No, they shouldn't cut off your clit. UTI's are caused by bacteria entering the urethra. The clitoris doesn't interfere or cause this. Female UTI's are caused by bacteria from the anus being swept up into the genital tract by wiping. Male UTI's are caused by the same thing however, it is easier to do such with a foreskin.

I am not trying to be snippy (and I hope you aren't either) but I am a chemist and have done research on the matter. There will always be a study to support the practice and always a study to refute it. I don't want to argue. I am just presenting facts.

I don't have any children yet so I am unemotional about it. I don't know what I would do when and if I am faced with the decision but it helps when people understand that there definitely are PROS _and_ CONs for the procedure.


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## Inspired007 (Aug 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thismama* 
Foreskins are not tonsils, or toenails. Just like breastfeeding is not like peeing in public. Bad analogy.

The point to the analogy was to show that there are several body parts we have on our anatomy which don't serve the same purpose as when the human race was first blessed with them. They are currently, not essential to survival but at one time were. Why do you think it's a bad analogy? Foreskins are exactly like tonsils in that they can cause more problems than they fix.


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## falcon (Jul 8, 2004)

I got a ton of UTIs when I was little, I'm so glad no one ever cut a piece of me off. My 3.5 yr old intact ds has never had a UTI.

The foreskin has several important sexual and protective functions
http://www.circumstitions.com/Functions.html

Can you come up with a list like that for the tonsils and appendix?


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## thismama (Mar 3, 2004)

There are not pros and cons. It is a North American cultural anomoly to do circ on infant boys not for religious reasons.

My child's father is from Britain, where few are circed. In his experience, men there do not have rampant problems with UTI's and other things due to NOT having part of their penises cut off. And a foreskin greatly enhances sexual pleasure in his opinion. He is gay and has had sex with hundreds of men so he should know, and he says uncirced men have very rough chapped skin on the heads of their penises and require much rougher stimulation to orgasm.

That to me is really sad. Why would I want to deny my child the possibility of pleasure in this life?


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## Inspired007 (Aug 25, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wytchywoman* 
Was anyone forcibly retracting the foreskin during this time period and causing continuous injury to that area? An intact foreskin actually protects the opening of the urethra and keeps bacteria from entering the system, thereby preventing UTI's , not causing them. No offense, but what you posted makes no sense to me.

Namaste,

Michelle

This is misinformation. I am leaving this forum b/c I don't want to create an uproar. I apologize if I've stepped on any toes. I see that you all feel strongly about this issue and since I am on the fence (just presenting a few facts) I will leave it as is.

Toodles.


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## sophiekat (Oct 29, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Inspired007* 
There is a reason to remove tonsils and appendix; because they've gotten infected or if the appendix is about to burst. It's funny that you mention tonsils and appendix b/c they actually serve about as much purpose as a foreskin. Our bodies (and our environments) are products of evolution. At one point, tonsils and the appendix (and foreskin for that matter) were needed and served a great purpose. Now, evolution has dictated that these anatomical parts can cause us grief. Tonsils are removed b/c children and adults are sometimes prone to horrible reoccuring strep infections; People sometimes remove their appendixes b/c of infection as well (when they rupture). I know of one really severe case for the removal of foreskin (as I described above) so I know that there is a reason for it, but since every little boy will be different you'll never know if yours will be the one to suffer problems or not. I've only had one case of tonsilitis in my life so there was no need to remove my tonsils but you can't discount the thousands of children who have in fact suffered. And since the benefit of removing the foreskin can outweigh the risk then I understand why many parents make this decision.

I do agree that no one should just undergo something like this without understanding why. To say that "everybody else does it" would be stupid in any situation. Why do you wash your car? "Everybody else does it?"


i don't know if i understand why you're posting. this is the case AGAINST circumcision. have you read any of the information provided? if so, you would know that uti's can be treated in boys _the same way they are in girls_--with antibiotics, dietary changes, etc. cutting off the foreskin or labia to "treat" them makes about as much sense as cutting off your eyelid to treat pinkeye.







:
the *only* medical indications for circumcision are gangrene, frostbite, and cancer.


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

It's so funny, the guy I know circ'd for UTIs *still* has chronic UTIs, but lost the ability to orgasm forever! Isn't that a hoot? (Maybe it was the 12 pack of Pepsi daily & NOT his infernal scary foreskin?)


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## the_lissa (Oct 30, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Inspired007* 
This is misinformation. I am leaving this forum b/c I don't want to create an uproar. I apologize if I've stepped on any toes. I see that you all feel strongly about this issue and since I am on the fence (just presenting a few facts) I will leave it as is.

Toodles.

No it is not misinformation at all. And foreskin does have a purpose to this day. I would love to know what pourpose you think the foreskin used to have, but doesn't any more.


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## wytchywoman (Nov 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Inspired007* 
There is a reason to remove tonsils and appendix; because they've gotten infected or if the appendix is about to burst. It's funny that you mention tonsils and appendix b/c they actually serve about as much purpose as a foreskin. Our bodies (and our environments) are products of evolution. At one point, tonsils and the appendix (and foreskin for that matter) were needed and served a great purpose. Now, evolution has dictated that these anatomical parts can cause us grief. Tonsils are removed b/c children and adults are sometimes prone to horrible reoccuring strep infections; People sometimes remove their appendixes b/c of infection as well (when they rupture). I know of one really severe case for the removal of foreskin (as I described above) so I know that there is a reason for it, but since every little boy will be different you'll never know if yours will be the one to suffer problems or not. I've only had one case of tonsilitis in my life so there was no need to remove my tonsils but you can't discount the thousands of children who have in fact suffered. And since the benefit of removing the foreskin can outweigh the risk then I understand why many parents make this decision.

I do agree that no one should just undergo something like this without understanding why. To say that "everybody else does it" would be stupid in any situation. Why do you wash your car? "Everybody else does it?"

My point behind saying that is this: Once upon a time, not so long ago, everyone who turned five used to be admitted to the hospital to have their tonsils taken out. My mom was one of them. This was standard procedure. Many, many, many kids suffered through a very painful surgery because a bunch of dillweed dr's thought it would be a good idea to remove a piece of skin hanging in the back of the throat, "just in case". FINALLY the medical community wisened up a bit and saw the outrageousness of doing this to kids and stopped it. My dad had his appendix taken out as a teen and to this day has no idea why they did it. He recalls being happy and healthy and not sick at all and being told one day that he had to have surgery. he sadi he questioned my grandpa about it later in life nad gpa mumbled something about a histpry of appendicitis in the family and the dr putting heavy pressure on gpa and gma to have it taken out "just in case" my dad had problems with it on down the road. To involve this surgery now on a kid who didn't need it would be cause for public outcry. Why is it not the same for circs? If a circ is "medically warranted", ( which BTW I really can't think of a reason why it would be but I'm not a dr so will concede the point) then I will say no more. If it is truly needed, then get one. But to do a surgery on a newborn baby, just because they might have trouble later makes no sense. To me, circing and taking the tonsils out are the same thing. If you wouldn't do one to a newborn, then why do the other? KWIM?

Namaste,

Michelle


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## sophiekat (Oct 29, 2005)

oh, and my dh also has scientific training (he's a _doctor_)







and he's also done research on this issue -- and concluded that _*there is no reason to circumcise absent cancer, frostbite, or gangrene*_


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## Baby Makes 4 (Feb 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *KayCSmommy* 
(Dont cry over spilt milk)

It's not spilt milk, you amputated a part of your son's body without his consent.


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## falcon (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail* 
It's so funny, the guy I know circ'd for UTIs *still* has chronic UTIs, but lost the ability to orgasm forever! Isn't that a hoot? (Maybe it was the 12 pack of Pepsi daily & NOT his infernal scary foreskin?)









poor man!

I'm seriously







that there are so many mamas who wander these boards and have no clue about this issue.


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## sophiekat (Oct 29, 2005)

perhaps this will eplain inspired007's posts: (quote from the regret sticky)







:







:

*quote*
Hi everyone. I just read through the posts and wanted to add my 2 cents in. I don't have any children yet and am still deciding on whether or not to circ when and if I have a boy. I am also a chemist and have read many research articles on the topic and there is always evidence to support both arguements.

So, what I am going to share is a true life story of a little boy that I know (he is two now). His mother wanted him to be circumsized and his father didn't. The father won out in the end. This little boy suffered immensely after that decision was made. He got many reoccuring urinary tract infections and even had to be hospitalized for one of them. His mother was livid b/c she wanted him to be circumsized in the first place. He was one year old when she finally put her foot down and was able to convince her husband to go ahead with the procedure. He was now, old enough to truly rationalize the pain and if you want to talk trauma, I am sure he will have more to deal with now than if the procedure were done earlier on.

In the human anatomy, every body part is useful (or at least was) at some point in our lives. However, some parts of our bodies, as evolution continues, become more obsolete. I believe that this is the case with the foreskin and is much as the same with tonsils and the appendix. This is not to say that these bodies parts cannot be somewhat advantageous, but I believe the point to most pro-circ arguements is that the benefits (of circ) outweigh the risk. By risk, I mean a slight decrease in sexual feeling (I mean, really, most circ men will tell you that they have no trouble being aroused; to find out if there is a difference in the sexual feeling of circ men and un-circ men in the latter years a study must done, you can't just assume the use of viagra is b/c of the practice of circumsicion).

I am really not here to argue because I know this forum is for women who are against circumsicion and that is fine. I just wanted to offer a case in point for the reason why so many people still opt for this procedure. I have noted some of the horror stories you've mentioned and if I am ever brought to this decision then I will definitely keep them in mind. Thanks for listening!
*endquote*


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## TigerTail (Dec 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Inspired007* 
This is misinformation. since I am on the fence (just presenting a few facts) I will leave it as is.


Interesting people coming over en masse to CAC to give us all lessons on the function (or lack of it) of the foreskin & re: UTIs. I doubt there is a collective bunch of people less ignorant about 'all things penis' than the regular posters of CAC







.

Barking up the wrong tree, m'dear.


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## wytchywoman (Nov 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Inspired007* 
This is misinformation. I am leaving this forum b/c I don't want to create an uproar. I apologize if I've stepped on any toes. I see that you all feel strongly about this issue and since I am on the fence (just presenting a few facts) I will leave it as is.

Toodles.

Leave if you must but I stand by what I said. It is NOT misinformation ,it is common sense. The foreskin keeps bacteria off of the glans of the penis and away from the opening of the urethra. I seriously do not understand how having a foreskin can lead to anal bacteria coming into contact with the urethra, that is absolute nonsense.

Namaste,

Michelle

PS... my ds 2 is noncirc'd and he is six and never had a UTI. Just so you know.

PSS....as far as I know our pinky fingers are probably obsolete too. Lots of people do OK without them, should we cut those off ? I had my tubes tied and am no longer going to become pregnant our breastfeed so does that mean my boobs are now obsolete and I should get rid of them too? Who decides what is obsolete?


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## falcon (Jul 8, 2004)

No matter how many UTIs a little girl gets, she is never in danger of getting a part of her body cut off. That poor little boy


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

Inspired,
Welcome to The Case Against Circumcision! There's a lot to learn here. Just a reminder: Mothering.com does not host discussions on the "merits" of circumcision.

I'm sorry about your friends' baby havin so many infections. However, as you said yourself, infections are caused by bacteria. They are not caused by having a foreskin. As a previous poster noted, the foreskin is adhered to the glans at birth, and usually for several years afterward, specifically to prtect the penis and urethra. It keeps bacteria out. The usual cause of UTIs in intact boys is that a parent has been erroneously instructed by doctors or family to pull back the foreskin and clean under it at diaper changes or baths.

Intact boys can sometimes have UTIs even when their penises have been properly cared for by washing only the outside, the same way that little girls can. When this is the case, the reasonable course of action is to use the proper antibiotic to eradicate the infection. This is what would be done for a girl baby, and boys deserve the same respect, rather than having a very important, functional piece of their penises cut off because of any infection. That's just not OK.

Something we have learned on this board is that children, male or female, who experience recurrent UTIs may have a physiological abnormality called Vesicoureteral Reflux, or VUR. This may be treated with longterm antibiotics, or surgery, or sometimes it resolves on its own as the child grows. Wouldn't it be interesting if this was the case for your friend's son?


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## falcon (Jul 8, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TigerTail* 
I doubt there is a collective bunch of people less ignorant about 'all things penis' than the regular posters of CAC

So very true


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## Baby Makes 4 (Feb 18, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Lula's Mom* 
Something we have learned on this board is that children, male or female, who experience recurrent UTIs may have a physiological abnormality called Vesicoureteral Reflux, or VUR. This may be treated with longterm antibiotics, or surgery, or sometimes it resolves on its own as the child grows. Wouldn't it be interesting if this was the case for your friend's son?

My son had mild Kidney Reflux which caused 2 UTIs, the first of which resulted in a week-long hospital stay. Thankfully I live in a part of the world where intact boys are the majority and it was never once suggested to me by any medical professional that I circumcise him.

As it turns out, he outgrew his Kidney Reflux and hasn't had an infection since. What a tragedy if I had circed him in the hopes of preventing it.


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## pdx.mothernurture (May 27, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *anony* 
When someone despite all the evidence still maintains the circ didn't hurt their son or alter his physical apperance, it's shrugging off the reality. You can pass it off but it'd be neglecting the feelings, the soul even, of your newborn. And to do it to other sons just strengthens the likelihood that the cycle of violence will continue.

You're entire post was incredibly eloquent & moving, anony, but this part in particular struck me as especially poignant. Thank you.









Jen


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

i've read the accounts of 2 situations thus far, in which intact boys were having recurrent uti's, got circumcised, and then the frequency of their occurrences of uti's increased dramatically.


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## witchbaby (Apr 17, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bandgeek* 
And really, you don't know that your son's penis is fine. You won't know that until he's fully grown and chances are, he's not going to tell you if there's something wrong with it at that point. My husband's penis skin SPLIT OPEN multiple times when he was a teenager, because he wasn't left with enough skin to grow into. But I guess that's no big deal huh? Of course, he didn't tell his mom. He didn't tell anybody. Until me. It's obvious that it's a result of his circumcision, because of where the scar is. That could be your son one day. Please spare your future sons the pain. Both the physical and the emotional.

mama, that actually made me cry. how horrible for your husband!
my husband has very mild complications from his circ: hair up the shaft, mildly painful erections-- he began restoring last year and was surprised when he had his first erection with no pain whatsoever! how sad is that, that, until that moment, sex was always equated with pain?


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## wytchywoman (Nov 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gabysmom617* 
i've read the accounts of 2 situations thus far, in which intact boys were having recurrent uti's, got circumcised, and then the frequency of their occurrences of uti's increased dramatically.

I am very glad that the boys in question got better, but did anyone take alternative measures before suggesting surgery? Had them tested for food allergies, kidney reflux, etc...? For example, my ds 2 had recurrent ear infections as a baby, severe ones. Two tubes surgeries had failed. His ENT wanted to go in immediately and remove the tonsils and adenoids ( he was 16 mos old at the time). I refused and told him I wanted to have allergy testing because a huge culprit behind many chronic infection states is food allergies. We tested, he was negative, we decided to wait and see if it was anatomical and would clear up on it's own, it didn't, so we had the surgery at 3 1/2 instead of 16 months and he was able to handle it better than I think he would have as a toddler and the surgery was never viewed as the only choice, it was viewed as the choice of last resort. Circing is surgery and so many people have a hard time viewing it as such. Most people would go to any length to avoid any other surgery on a child. Were the moms of these boys told there might be other options besides circing?

Namaste,

Michelle


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *wytchywoman* 
I am very glad that the boys in question got better, but did anyone take alternative measures before suggesting surgery? Had them tested for food allergies, kidney reflux, etc...? For example, my ds 2 had recurrent ear infections as a baby, severe ones. Two tubes surgeries had failed. His ENT wanted to go in immediately and remove the tonsils and adenoids ( he was 16 mos old at the time). I refused and told him I wanted to have allergy testing because a huge culprit behind many chronic infection states is food allergies. We tested, he was negative, we decided to wait and see if it was anatomical and would clear up on it's own, it didn't, so we had the surgery at 3 1/2 instead of 16 months and he was able to handle it better than I think he would have as a toddler and the surgery was never viewed as the only choice, it was viewed as the choice of last resort. Circing is surgery and so many people have a hard time viewing it as such. Most people would go to any length to avoid any other surgery on a child. Were the moms of these boys told there might be other options besides circing?

Namaste,

Michelle


You're preaching to the choir, dear. Those 2 little boys did not get better, they got worst. The frequency of their uti's INcreased. They got many many more utis, I think i remember reading one who said that instead of occassionally getting a uti, he started getting them back to back after his circumcision.







: I doubt these moms were given other alternatives, althought I don't remember for sure, it was a while back when I read this.


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## dillonandmarasmom (May 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Inspired007* 
You can certainly get UTI from not being circed. No, they shouldn't cut off your clit. UTI's are caused by bacteria entering the urethra. The clitoris doesn't interfere or cause this. Female UTI's are caused by bacteria from the anus being swept up into the genital tract by wiping. Male UTI's are caused by the same thing however, it is easier to do such with a foreskin.

I am not trying to be snippy (and I hope you aren't either) but I am a chemist and have done research on the matter. There will always be a study to support the practice and always a study to refute it. I don't want to argue. I am just presenting facts.

I don't have any children yet so I am unemotional about it. I don't know what I would do when and if I am faced with the decision but it helps when people understand that there definitely are PROS _and_ CONs for the procedure.

Are you trying to say that bacteria has an easier chance to enter the urethra through a *hooded* urethra??? That's like saying, "Hey, go out into the rain without your hood so your head doesn't get soaked!"


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## wytchywoman (Nov 14, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *gabysmom617* 
You're preaching to the choir, dear. Those 2 little boys did not get better, they got worst. The frequency of their uti's INcreased. They got many many more utis, I think i remember reading one who said that instead of occassionally getting a uti, he started getting them back to back after his circumcision.







: I doubt these moms were given other alternatives, althought I don't remember for sure, it was a while back when I read this.

OOOPS!!!! Sorry, I misread. How sad for the little boys that they had to go through that and still be sick on top of it.







:

Namaste,

Michelle


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## Lula's Mom (Oct 29, 2003)

Or, "There's a good chance your elbows will get filthy if you wear a longsleeved shirt!"


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## gabysmom617 (Nov 26, 2005)

well, u know, if you are regularly, several times a day, forcing up the child's sleeves, and rubbing dirt onto their elbows and then pulling their sleeves back down over the dirt, sure, their elbows would get dirty!


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## edamommy (Apr 6, 2004)

KayCSmommy;Its cutting off a piece of skin said:


> cutting of a piece of HIS FREAKIN' SKIN!!?? DID you not realize that then?


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