# Attachment parenting and summer camp



## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

I am desperate for somebody to agree with me. Nobody agreed with me in another thread so I am starting this one.

Isn't it unnatural for a camp that accepts 7-year-olds to prohibit the 7-year-old and the parent to talk to each other by telephone for 10 days?

My daughter is not 7, she is 11. And she found this most wonderful perfect horseback riding camp. We visited it, we loved it, but they have a policy against telephone contact with a parent. They say it makes children more homesick. And, the logistics of letting 100 kids call their parents every day would be nightmarish.

I don't want to talk to her for hours, I just want to hear her every day say, I am fine mom, I am happy, a little homesick, but I had a great time today kayaking. Love you, bye.

The kids are allowed to write letters and you can write letters to them. We already put the deposit down and my daughter is dying to go, so I am going to let her go.

It just feels so unnatural, not to be able to talk to your own child. I thought people here, who nurse their children and practice attachment parenting, and are SAHM (I am a working mom), would understand how I feel. I am so dying to think that something horrible would happen and I couldn't be there for my only child.

Help, I need your comments even if you disagree with me.


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## intentionalmama (Aug 23, 2008)

Hi Ruth, I never went to camp so I don't have any experience of what it is like to actually go to camp. My little boy is not quite six and at his age I would not feel comfortable with him going away without either me or dh. If he was 7, I would probably still not feel comfortable and the idea of him not being able to call me - would not be ok. I don't know how I will feel when he is 11, but as I am writing, I am thinking that if he wanted to call me - at whatever age - I would want him to be able to do that. I also know that part of it would be for my piece of mind.

It sounds like your daughter is looking forward to going to this camp; she feels confident, and you think it is a great place that she would enjoy it. You just really want to know that she is ok, and that you will miss her. Sounds like pretty normal feelings to me.

I guess that as our children get older and they branch out more on their own there can be mixed emotions. Delight and excitment for them in their new adventures and also some grief over our own (not sure how to word this) having to let go, and step back.

Maybe those ten days (that does sound like a long time to me) you could do something special for yourself so that when you reunite you can both share some special new memories with each other.

Would love to hear how the camp goes and how you manage.

Take care,
Lesley

Lesley


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## Heavenly (Nov 21, 2001)

You said it yourself, it would just not to be possible to allow all of the children to do that. It would take hours every day to let each child phone home. If you aren't comfortable with that then maybe it is best to keep her home. I was 11 when I started to go to overnight camp and I did just fine. I had a blast being away from my parents! Personally, I probably won't feel comfortable letting my children go to overnight camp, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there.


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruth* 
they have a policy against telephone contact with a parent. They say it makes children more homesick.

I went to camp. I totally believe their argument.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruth* 
I don't want to talk to her for hours, I just want to hear her every day say, I am fine mom, I am happy, a little homesick, but I had a great time today kayaking. Love you, bye.

I hope this doesn't come across too harshly -- I don't mean to be harsh.

Honestly, I don't think this is about AP. You aren't talking about what your 11 year old daughter needs -- you are talking about what you want as a parent.

It sounds like your daughter is excited about it. Chances are very good that she will have a total blast. You, on the other hand, might have a hard time from the sounds of it. Who is the camp for, again?

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruth* 
I am so dying to think that something horrible would happen and I couldn't be there for my only child.









mama. I would be shocked if they didn't allow phone calls in exceptional circumstances (i.e. something horrible happening.)


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## pigpokey (Feb 23, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~pi* 








mama. I would be shocked if they didn't allow phone calls in exceptional circumstances (i.e. something horrible happening.)

This is what I think you need to have them reassure you about.

Also, you can always call the camp during office hours, right? And say, how is my daughter doing?

Generally when I was growing up, and as a counselor at Girl Scout camp, camp was No Calls. But that didn't mean if a child got hysterical they couldn't call home.


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## LaughingHyena (May 4, 2004)

I regularly take kids to summer camps and I have to agree, they do seem to get more homesick after phoning home. Especially if they do shortly before bedtime.

Before mobiles, we would only be able to ring parents in an emergency. I can not imagine a camp where this would be possible, even when the general rule is no phone calls.

Now quite a few of the kids come with their own phones and I hate to say it is a real pain. The child with the phone often gets more upset after phoning home and the kids without phones are more upset because they can't phone.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

I worked at a really good camp for many years. (How to talk so kids will listen... and Parent Effectiveness Training were the core curriculum for counsellor training and it was where I first ran into the whole concept of GD.)

We had the same policy. I don't think it's unnatural at all. I actually guess I'm old enough to think that constant cell phone contact is less natural.







We did have the campers write home at least once a week (the camping period was a month) and most campers wrote home more like every couple of days.

If there were serious problems, of course the parents were called.

It is definitely a nightmare for the camp to organize, but it's more than that - it's about the direct communication between the camper and the staff at the camp. If a camper's upset, the staff need and want to know, and you can bet that if 100 campers were saving up their problems to tell their parents (which they probably would), there would then be 50 calls to the camp director, 50 investigations into what the issues were, and 50 calls back to the parents.

Instead, part of the experience of sleepaway camp is to learn that the responsible adults around you can support and care for you and that communicating with them directly is totally possible. It's also part of the experience for the parents to let their kids have an experience in which they don't share directly.

Good luck with your decision about it!

I would say though that if there is a policy at a camp that makes you really uncomfortable, it may mean it is not a good match for your family.


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## churndash (Mar 25, 2009)

My daughter has been attending Girl Scout camp for five or six years.

Logistically, it really is impossible for all those girls to call home every day.

Of course they would call you if there was an emergency. It isn't even a question - if someone is sick or injured they absolutely contact you right away.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

I don't think this is about AP, either. The attachment part also means that as they mature, you let go according to their needs. If she wants to go and is O.K. with being out of contact except in the case of emergency, then let her go. If she is not comfortable with it, then try to find a camp/day camp that you can attend with her.


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## mistymama (Oct 12, 2004)

I don't really see why this is an AP issue. It sounds like your dd is excited about this camp and ready to go - it's you that wants the phone contact.

I clearly remember going to camp and having a blast, I was probably 10 years old. We were not allowed phone contact, but we did get letters from our parents and that was so much fun.

My best advise is to let her go, write her letters, and if you trust the camp is a fun, safe place, don't stress too much about the lack of phone calls. Imagine trying to coordinate that for every single camper each day! Not possible.


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## confustication (Mar 18, 2006)

I'd slip some cool stationary, pre-addressed envelopes, and stamps- and maybe a cool pen or two into her bag. Wave goodbye, and look forward to letters- IF she feels like writing them.

I worked at a great camp, and we had a similar policy, and honestly, if the child had a need to call, it was met. We did not worry so much about meeting the parents' needs to talk to their kids.

My 7yo dd wil probably be heading off for her first year this year- they have a 4 day sleepaway weekend.

As a counselor, I worked with the youngest kids- ages 6-8 and they were there for 2 weeks. The counselors really are there for the kids in a way that the paents aren't- and it's a good experience for the kids to learn how to handle being away.


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## Evergreen (Nov 6, 2002)

While I completely understand why you are hesitant I also beleive that AP promotes independence and the ability for children to realize that they are ready to be away from home. It sounds like your daughter is ready. If she is anything like I was at that age she will be having too much fun even to write but she will love getting letters from you. My parents planned it so I got a letter everyday from one of them or my little brother while at camp. It was great! The kids who were extrememly homesick were given the opportunity to call home and some had their parents pick them up early because of homesickness but for the most part the children who were ready to be there had a blast! I still remember my camp experiences with great fondness. I was 9 the first time and 11 the second.


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## BAU3 (Dec 10, 2001)

My now 11 yo ds has attended summer camp for the past three summers. The last two he was away for SEVEN WEEKS!!!

They also have no call policy, especially the first summer (and no visit, as the camp is only 10 miles away). They do allow the parents to call around dinner time if needed, and as my ds has become more at home there, and they know he's not going to dip into homesick state if he talks to me, they ddon't mind if I stop by now and again.

I think its really hard on a kid to transition back and forth between the independent "camp life' and being mom/dads baby. Hence the rules against calling.

Iits really hard to let go, but the bottom line is the childs comfort, not yours.... I know a mom who sent two of her girls to the same camp last summer, they LOVED it... she will not be allowing them to return because she had such a hard time with them being away (she did call the camp every day to make sure they were ok..) I feel sad for the girls and I feel sad for mom..

If you can overcome your discomfort with the no call, I'd encourage you to let her go... most likely she'll have a great time and if she is not, if she's terribly homesick, then of course they're going to contact you.


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## MaterPrimaePuellae (Oct 30, 2007)

Specifically to OP-- it's only a week, and your daughter is 11, which I think is old enough for her to understand the ramifications and make the decision for herself. So, if she feels comfortable, she'll probably be fine.

Regarding the principle of the thing, though:
I can totally see how it would be almost impossible, logistically, for 100 kids to call home every day. Also, if long distance, I suppose it would become expensive after a while.... and it doesn't surprise me at all that the camps have policies to "decrease homesickness" and encourage trust in the counselors.

All of that said-- and no offense to PPs who obviously feel differently-- I just do not think it is a good, at all, for a 7 year old to be away from his/her parents for a month at a time. This is not just "child developing independence." It is "child being separated from everyone he/she loves." If parental contact must be cut off in order for the child to emotionally acclimate, then what is that saying about the experience? I'm in my 20s with a child of my own, and if *I* didn't talk to my mom and dad for a month it would seem weird. Even more-- if someone told me that they were taking away from husband and daughter for a month so I could become "independent"-- oh, and no phone calls, because that would lengthen my acclimation-- I would NOT be pleased.

I think this is a good example of a fairly common phenomenon-- adults encouraging children to do things that adults would not want to do themselves.

idk-- every situation is different, as evidenced by posts above about children *loving* camp.... but after listening to this radio show:

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radi...spx?sched=1086

I decided that we just wouldn't do camp-type stuff at all.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaterPrimaePuellae* 
All of that said-- and no offense to PPs who obviously feel differently-- I just do not think it is a good, at all, for a 7 year old to be away from his/her parents for a month at a time. This is not just "child developing independence." It is "child being separated from everyone he/she loves." If parental contact must be cut off in order for the child to emotionally acclimate, then what is that saying about the experience? I'm in my 20s with a child of my own, and if *I* didn't talk to my mom and dad for a month it would seem weird. Even more-- if someone told me that they were taking away from husband and daughter for a month so I could become "independent"-- oh, and no phone calls, because that would lengthen my acclimation-- I would NOT be pleased.

I think this is a good example of a fairly common phenomenon-- adults encouraging children to do things that adults would not want to do themselves.

idk-- every situation is different, as evidenced by posts above about children *loving* camp.... but after listening to this radio show:

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radi...spx?sched=1086

I decided that we just wouldn't do camp-type stuff at all.









I think it is definitely an individual call. I totally see your point about kids being away and the different standards in that sense.

But my experience is pretty different. My particular camp started at 9 years old, but the majority of campers were 12-15.

For me, camp was a lifesaver in more ways than one.

As a girl in particular, spending a month (and then two months) in a media-free, mostly boy-free environment helped me to hold onto some aspects of myself that Mary Pipher talks about disappearing in her book _Reviving Ophelia_. Learning and applying the physical skills and having a group of friends that were in no way related to school was really great.

Having young women in their late teens to mid twenties as role models and supporting me in loco parentis was fantastic in a lot of ways. I remember a few in particular: an openly lesbian artist; a phenomenal tennis player.

And yes, being away from my parents and starting to make decisions without checking in with the "family viewpoint" was a big part of that.

It wasn't that I was cut off from my parents so much as that I was away from them, and in my life I have been _extremely_ glad that I am able to be away from my support network _and still know_ that I was both fine and that the relationships would be there when I was back. It also cut off the noise of the regular expectations on me and made the space for me to create different ones.

I know so many women, in particular, who are afraid to eat alone, go to events alone, travel alone, or seize professional opportunities alone and who really limit their lives to what people around them are willing to do. I don't consider this to be the end goal of attachment parenting - having to be attached in that way.


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## mbbinsc (May 8, 2008)

My 11 yo DS went to sleep away camp for 6 nights last summer. The camp is nearby and we know the folks in charge. We had gone to the camp as a family a couple times for weekend retreats so knew DS was comfortable there. He was fine. I had to keep my anxiety in check before leaving him. It was weird not hearing his voice for so many days. He had a blast and will be returning this summer. It was good that we had no contact as I probably would have asked about something related to hygiene, which I learned was not a focus at camp.


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## NYCVeg (Jan 31, 2005)

I started going to sleep-away camp when I was nine. No phone calls were allowed (this was before the age of cell phones, of course). Honestly, it was never a big deal. I wrote letters to my parents. I LOVED getting letters back. And I loved having a little independence! At 9, I was absolutely old enough to go 2-3 weeks without talking to my parents on the phone. The next year, I started going for 6 weeks--there was a parent visiting day 3 weeks in, but again, no regular phone calls.

In the case of an accident, etc. the camp will OF COURSE contact you immediately. One year at camp I got sick and had to spend a couple of days in the infirmary. Even though this wasn't an "emergency" (I was sick enough that I couldn't run around, not so sick that I needed to go to the hospital or anything), I spoke to my parents every day that I was there. My cousin also got very sick one year at camp (same camp), and her parents were called to come pick her up.


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## chaoticzenmom (May 21, 2005)

I'm sorry that I can't agree with you. I want to, i really do. I was feeling the same thing last year when I sent my 8yo off to camp with his best friend. I wasn't ready to send him, but he was ready to go and his best friend was going, so I consented. I did write to him everyday, but he never had the time to write back to me.LOL

The logistics of having them call just wouldn't work. They're busy! They're not just lying around. They can't hold up everyone just to wait for someone to get off the phone with mom. They can't have kids on their cell phones.

I was afraid that someone would hurt him and he wouldn't be able to call me. I was afraid that he'd miss me. I was just afraid to let him go. But he loved it. This year I'm sending my 7yo daughter and my 9yo son at the same time. I'm going to be a wreck that week, but they'll be having fun.

If your daughter truly gets homesick, they'll call you. They know true homesick vs. temporary homesick.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Nope, can't agree with you. Sounds more like you have a problem with the idea that your DD could be fine at the camp without you!

If you have a problem with it, don't send her to camp. You are unlikely to find a good camp with a different policy. It's up to you whether your parenting ego takes precedence over your DD's desire to have the camping experience.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that's how it looks to me.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

I posted on your last thread as well I believe, but here is the story of my little brother going to summer camp.

My little brother has always been a mama's boy a little, but he was tiny it was ALOT - he loved his mama and never wanted to be away from her. This is not a bad thing. But, he also had this really great friend (our next door neighbor - people that the whole family was close friends with - really wonderful people) that he loved, and he really wanted to do an overnight at this boys house. He couldn't - not AT ALL. He would make until 2am and then freak out, they would call my parents and they would go get him.

So, my older brother and I went to camp one year and had a blast, both of us! My little brother didn't want to go since it was 10 days - he was 9 that year. The next year my parents decided that he was going to go too. The camp was close enough that if they had to come get him they could. My parents dropped us all off at the pickup point (we took busses to camp since it was on an island) and My little brother cried, and went kicking and screaming. That was the last my parents heard from him until 10 days later when they picked us all up! He had a BLAST - didn't even write a single letter! And, no more homesickness problems ever again. EVER.

Some of you might think that was cruel of my parents - but I think it allowed him to grow in a way that he wouldn't have been able to if they didn't. This was a child who didn't want to go and had a great time! My parents even called the camp to see how he was doing and spoke with his age group director who said he was doing great - no meltdowns, had tons of friends in his cabin and in other cabins, had made upthe groups campfire skit, etc. He just needed that little push to get on the bus and had the time of his life!

From what you've said your daughter WANTS to go to camp! I wholeheartedly agree with the pp who said it was a good experience for her to be away from media, away from boys for the most part, and in a place with other female role models - its such a good feeling to do something on your own and realize that even if your parents aren't right there you can still do it! Making decisions on your own is hard, and learning that in a place that is supportive and friendly is good for children I think.

Also, about all kids calling home being really hard - one camp that I worked at did allow once weekly phone calls home and it was AWFUL!!! Oh man - talk about inducing homesickness! That was my least favorite day of the week for many reasons that I won't go into, and the girls were a MESS for the rest of the day. Dealing with the emotions was terrible and hard, and it was the hardest day of the week for the entire summer for all the staff.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

If you are worried that the camp won't contact you in the case that your daughter gets sick - find out their policy on that before she goes, and if they don't allow ANY phone contact, EVEN in case of emergency don't send her. Find a different one. And, find out if the camp is accredited by the American Camping Association - if they are this will speak alot about the camp.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

I wanted to add that I also think that going off to camp and a child's readiness to do so is just as developmental as walking or talking. Some kids are ready earlier than others. My dd is 7 and this would be torture for her at this point. She would feel abandoned. But I expect that by the time she is 11 or 12 or so she'll be ready, as she feels more and more independent every year. For some kids this might come sooner or later.

The key to AP is that you take your cues from your dd... not your own emotions.

How many times have we all felt like screaming at our kids, but didn't because we were consciously thinking of their feelings before our own anger? It's the same thing here. You have to put your dd's feelings first while at the same time ensuring to your best ability her safety in all of this.


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## bl987ue (Mar 14, 2006)

Attachment parenting means to take your cues from your child. She wants to go! That means she is ready. Pat yourself on the back for having done a good job of raising a secure child.


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## Amys1st (Mar 18, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *bl987ue* 
Attachment parenting means to take your cues from your child. She wants to go! That means she is ready. Pat yourself on the back for having done a good job of raising a secure child.

Basically what I was going to say. And also it sounds like you have raised a great kid and you and your DH are doing a great job. And since you child is older than my children, I am seeing the AP child raising does keep paying off!

If all of this dosent jive with you, keep her home this summer but be prepared to have something else available for her, since she seems ready to me. I would talk to some other families IRL who have gone to the camp or similar and see their opinions. I also think, you dd is old enough and smart enough to know if something is wrong and what to do. If something happens, you can always pick her up early.

I know if I was getting ready to send her off, I would also have a problem like you are stating, but I would trust in the system put in place since if it wasnt working, I doubt people would be wanting to send their kids to a place like that nor would you be considering it. I do know if it was my oldest dd, now at age 7, I would question it, but with my younger who is extremely independent (and only 3!) I would not think twice about it at age 11.


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## snoopy5386 (May 6, 2005)

I agree with them. They are right - the logisitics of 100 kids wanting to call home is nightmarish. I also think that calling home induces homesickness more. Part of being ready for sleep-away camp means not being able to call home. If she is not ready then find a day camp that does horseback riding.
They let her write letters, so if she was miserable she could write you, you would get the letter in 2 days max and then you would know and could go get her.
A compromise? Can you call the camp every day and speak to her counselor to see if she is doing ok?
Where we live the 6th graders (so 11-12 year olds) spend a week at a nature center here, overnight camping, no contact with parents. So almost a whole school district of kids (a few don't go I'm sure) go and are fine. At 11 I would not at all have a problem with my child away at camp for 10 days with no contact. At 7, I probably would, but I wouldn't send her at 7.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

This feels a little like piling on at this point, but I don't agree either. As a former camp councelor, I can personally attest to the fact that calls home make it a lot harder for a child to settle into enjoying camp rather than missing home.

Certainly you should ask about emergencies and how they are handled -- both emergencies on your end and on the camp or campers part. I know the camp that I worked at many years ago called on behalf of kids that were having adjustment issues (but this was a month long camp, so that was a bigger issue). The camp staff talked to the councelors to come up with a plan for each individual camper. The couple of kids where the parents were insistant that the child be allowed phone calls had a much harder time than those who's parents did not do calls.

DS is 9 and heading to his first week of sleep away camp this summer. We know this camp and are entirely comfortable with it. He wants to go, he says he's ready. For me, that means that its time for me to step back and let him spread his wings that much more. That's the ultimate job of a parent -- get out of the way and let them fly.


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## skueppers (Mar 30, 2005)

When I was that age, I wanted desperately to go to sleepaway camp, but my mom wouldn't let me go. She just wasn't comfortable with the idea.

I was totally ready, and would have been fine. I did go on a school trip that year away from home for a few nights, which went fine.

I would encourage you to think about this in terms of whether you trust your daughter to be right about her ability to handle this. I suspect that if she thinks she can handle it, she can. You might also consider what message you would be sending her about your confidence in her judgement and self-knowledge if you didn't let her go.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

I understand your argument that it's unnatural to not let a 7 year old contact their parents, and it's a little weird that this camp accepts 7 year olds for a 10 day camp. But, my solution would be to not send my 7 year old to that camp. Ds is going to be 8 this summer and no way is he ready for a week away. Actually, there's a science camp that does an 'introductory' overnight camp of 2-3 days for kids his age, and he's not ready for it.

But an 11 year old? I would in a heartbeat. I went to camp as an 11 year old and loved it!

Is your dd bothered by not being able to check in with you? That's what you need to go off of.

All camps will let kids call in an emergency or if they're feeling really really scared/anxious. So, it's not like they're holding your child prisoner. But part of the joy of camp is the 'retreat' aspect of it -- you're away from it all. I wouldn't want to deny my child that experience, if my child wanted it. And I would hope that my AP parenting when my child was younger would give my child the confidence and the skills to be able to be away if they wanted.


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## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

Oh gosh Op, I was having some of the same feelings last year when I sent my 9 y/o off for her 1st week of overnight camp. It's a huge milestone for both you and your dd. We didn't have any phone contact, but I didn't doubt that I would be called for something big. I did lots of research and felt very good about the camp to begin with.

Someone pointed me in the direction of some camp resources on the web that talked about seperation and managing homesickness successfully as a developmental piece for the kids. I think this is so very true. my dd loved camp, but struggled a lot with homesickness. She made it though, and I thought, well, thats the end of overnight camp for us. This year she is gung ho to go back and feels like she knows she can manage feeling like she misses us at night. She's mastered something and feels good about herself for it. I am very poud of her. And of me, because the seperation was hard, but I've learned to trust my dd and the people I involve in her life.

I'd suggest not worrying about any other kid but your own, and her desire to go to camp. 11 is a good age for this-she'll have a blast, and you'll get to experience a bit of her independence in a safe and fun environment.

Good luck!


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## SmoothieMom (Feb 12, 2009)

OP, I think your feelings are totally normal, we all worry about our kids when they are in someone elses care. It will be tough, but it will be okay, let her go.


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## Shaki (Mar 15, 2006)

Op,
I was deeply DEEPLY attached to my Mom (still am







)and went away for overnight camp for the first time when I was 11 (for 4 weeks). It was fabulous, I loved every single minute of it. There were no cell phones then and it never even occurred to me to call home. In remembering that time, I remember how exciting getting mail was. If you do decide to go ahead with sending your DD to this camp I strongly recommend writing her daily letters, and sending care packages regularly. Your DD may not write you back (I think I wrote letters very rarely) but she will treasure whatever you send her.

Also it's interesting that a pp referenced the This American Life Camp Episode as a reason to avoid camp because I loved camp and I really got a kick out of that show. It made me nostalgic for a special time in my life that I treasure.

Best of luck with whatever you decide.


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## MaterPrimaePuellae (Oct 30, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Shaki* 
Op,

Also it's interesting that a pp referenced the This American Life Camp Episode as a reason to avoid camp because I loved camp and I really got a kick out of that show. It made me nostalgic for a special time in my life that I treasure.

Best of luck with whatever you decide.

















hah, that's me! If you've listened to the episode, then you know that they distinguish between "camp people" and non-"camp people"-- and I guess I'm just in the latter group! All of the girls weeping and weeping when their team lost the color war just seemed like madness to me--- but I can also see why it might seem otherwise to others.

Reading through this thread has definitely helped me to understand how others might feel differently about camp and the separation experience, so that's been good for me.









Finally-- to the OP who mentioned the Reviving Ophelia book and spending time with strong female role models-- that is an excellent point which I had no considered.


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## sunnmama (Jul 3, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruth* 
It just feels so unnatural, not to be able to talk to your own child. I thought people here, who nurse their children and practice attachment parenting, and are SAHM (I am a working mom), would understand how I feel..

I do understand how you feel. It would extremely difficult for me to not talk to my dd for days at a time (she is now 8).

But I also understand the camp policy. And, while I never went to (or wanted to go to) sleep away camp (outside of girl scout camp, which I only liked a little bit), I would put on a smile and send dd if she wanted to go at 11.

The camp sounds wonderful, and the experiences of posters on this thread sound incredible! I hope she has an equally sweet camp experience. Ultimately, if she is ready, it will probably be a great experience for both of you.


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## karemore (Oct 7, 2008)

I agree with you.

It sounds unnatural to me and I'd have a hard time with that policy.

I wouldn't be away from my husband that long without talking with him and I certainly wouldn't be away from my child without talking with her and knowing she could call me if she wanted to.


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## Scottishduffy (Oct 8, 2008)

I attended summer camp for *many* years, my camp was ~1,000 miles away from my home!

It was a 4 week endeavor and there were no phone calls home. Yes, exception were made (A child was ill and needed to go into town to see the doctor, family emergencies)... but rarely did kids get to call home. When a call was made home it was the camp director calling, and the child would be brought in to talk. It was not the child herself making the call.

As a counselor I had 7-8 yr old girls in my hut. I remember one mother came up to me on opening day and secretly handed me 3 letters. She would start sending her daughter mail as soon as she got home, but gave me a few letters to distribute those first few days until the real letters started arriving. That way her daughter had a letter from home every day. The kids *love* getting mail! I thought this was a great idea for first time camper.









I had another child whose mother had made her a special pillowcase for camp, many came with home made photo albums to keep tucked near their bunks.

My little girls were all a bit frightened and homesick the first night. No one knew what to expect! The second night I had 2 campers still homesick. By day 3 they were all giggling and worries were gone. I actually had to force them to write letters home on Sunday!









I felt the same at that age!! It wasn't that i didn't miss home. It is just i was confident that home and my parents would always be there. Home would not change for me. My parents had given my enough confidence to venture away from them!







Camp was a very short gift every summer and the friends I met there i may not ever see again. Sure, many of came back year after year... but sadly some couldn't. I wanted to treasure the moments that i knew would be so short lived. Home would always be there.... my camp friends would not.

BTW... 10 years after my last summer I still keep in touch with camp friends. Camp remains the most profoundly positive experience of my life and I wish both you and your daughter all the best! Be positive, and allow her to have agood time without having to worry if mom is falling apart. Only as a grown woman did i begin to understand how hard it was for my Mom and Dad to let me go every summer. I thank them for doing so.


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## Surfer Rosa (Jun 3, 2005)

If your daughter is okay with it, maybe you can try to be too? I'm not being flippant-believe me-I can't imagine not talking to my kids for a couple of days, let alone a week (they are only little though).

I say this b/c I went to summer camp from age 8-16, for 3 weeks to 8 weeks at a go, and they had the same deal (and for the same reasons you've listed). Obviously if something was really, really wrong, contact was initiated (ie. accident, etc.).

Some of my campers' parents would start writing letters before their kids left home, so they'd have mail waiting for them.


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## Mama Phoebe (Feb 25, 2005)

I've wondered about this quite a bit myself in recent years since becoming a parent. I don't think it's an obvious answer. I am a "camp person" also, in fact, my paid work involves running a short summer camp program in July. I heard recently about a camp near my city where kids go for 4 weeks and there are no phone calls - apparently it's a "rite of passage" for the particular community serviced by that camp. It seemed a bit intense to me, for kids as young as 8 to go that long without talking to home. I have worked at camp for years and years and one of the camps I worked at for the longest had a pay phone on site that kids would line up to use during the choice time period. That camp had a lot of international campers who would call home every couple of days to check in. Last year I had one junior counsellor who had to call home every day and I permitted this. Also, if a camper at "my" camp was distressed and asked to call home, I certainly would have allowed this to happen. But I try to run our program with an attachment based leadership model in mind.
I agree with the comments of previous posters that if your daughter thinks she is up for this then go for it.
Also, my mom would often write letters BEFORE I left for summer camp so that there would be mail waiting for me when I arrived. I actually found this annoying and embarrassing, but that was totally just me. I think it's a GREAT idea and if it turns out that either of my kids is attached enough to want to have this public display of parenting attention while away at camp then I would be all OVER sending out letters ahead of the camper.
Also, there are probably one or two camps in your area that run "family camp" type programs, sometimes during the middle or last week of the summer. This might be a way to experience camp within the context of the family as a bridge to future years. But it doesn't sound as if your daughter requires this extra support.
So, in brief, Yes, I agree with you that it is a bit excessive to not allow phone calls home.
Yes, I think the kids cry more when they talk to their parents. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. They ARE away from their parents. That IS a little bit sad. Distracting kids from being sad isn't what we're all about. I think sometimes it can become a bit of mass hysteria though when everyone gets going on the homesickness. That's when I would hope the staff would get involved and get things going and move people past that point.
I'm rambling.
Camp rocks. I hope she has a great time! You'll be amazed at how it turns out.
And definetly make sure it's an accredited camp and that they will contact you if your child is sick/hurt/hysterical etc.

Good luck!


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## oceanbaby (Nov 19, 2001)

My oldest is almost 8, so I don't know if I would feel differently if he were 11, but NO WAY would I feel comfortable with that. What if he was unhappy? What if someone was mean to him? What if he wanted to leave?

It actually doesn't matter why - I would not send him anywhere that didn't allow phone access.


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## mamatoElias (Aug 2, 2006)

I didn't read all the responses, so I don't know what the other mamas here had to say. But I did want to say that I was one of those kids who was always terribly homesick at camp and I can almost guarantee you that no camp director will prevent a horribly homesick kiddo from calling home. The logistics of 100 kids calling home daily is impossible. And I'll agree that a mildly homesick kid might do better with distraction than a phone call home. But if your DD is in tears, I'd be willing to bet you'll be getting a phone call. Could you send a cell phone with her to use only if necessary?

Sounds like your daughter is really excited about camp. I bet she'll do great and be proud that she was able to go even if she does need a phone call home to make it through the week.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Wow, I'm so surprised that a no-phone policy is normal.

Camp isn't such a big thing in the UK, but I did go to one camp as a kid. And there were pay phones. And there were no limits whatsoever on using them to call anyone you chose to call. And there were no logistical problems with it either. I just recall us hanging around waiting for a phone to be free in the evenings, chatting and eating candy and larking around as we did so. It was no chaotic big deal, just kids hanging out while they waited turns. And there was more that a hundred kids there. And no cell phones in those days either!









Some kids called a lot, some didn't call at all. I think I called once or twice during the week.

I'm with you, even if I am a lone voice. I think it is most odd to deny kids the use of a phone. And I'm wondering how that works anyway in this day and age of cellphones.

My kids have no interest in going away to camps, and I have no interest in sending them. Our summers are spent together, and camp is just not part of my cultural expectation for them. But if and when they decide to go, I'd expect them to take a phone and be allowed to call home if they wished to. Nothing to do with what I want as a parent, but I do think that they should be allowed that contact if they wish.

But if your dd is OK with it, I guess it's not a problem right now. In principle, though, I"m with you!


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama Phoebe* 
Yes, I think the kids cry more when they talk to their parents. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. They ARE away from their parents. That IS a little bit sad. Distracting kids from being sad isn't what we're all about.

Such wise words! ITA.


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## skueppers (Mar 30, 2005)

I realized that in my original response, I didn't actually answer your question.

I don't think it's strange for a camp to have a "no routine calls home" policy.

But I also have trouble imagining a 7-year-old deciding to go to such a camp, particularly if they didn't have an older sibling already at the camp.

The way I think all of this relates to Attachment Parenting is that as an attachment parent, I would not send my child to such a place if it wasn't their own choice to go. But I think I probably would let my 7-year-old go if she were able to convince me that she understood the situation and was passionate about going.

I think I would have been excited about such an opportunity by the time I was 8; I'm not so sure about 7.


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## intentionalmama (Aug 23, 2008)

So, today I had some thoughts about attachment parenting. I was thinking about Gordon Neufeld and some of his thoughts from his book "Hold on to your Kids." The idea that the attachment between parents and children should be the most important relationships in children's lives. So, I started thinking more about this whole camp situation. At first I thought, well 11 is older then 7 and maybe at that age it would be fine. But the more I think about it the more I am thinking about how 11 is a preteen and sending off an 11 year old to a camp for 10 days without access to her parent (unless of course in emergency or she is having a rough time) her compass point then becomes her peer and the camp counsellors. And is that necessarily such a good thing?

It sounds like many of the responders feel that it is; and that many of them have had wonderful camp experiences. I have never been to camp so I trust that it is for each person what they say. If my child wanted to go, I would also lead towards letting him go. But, it just seems that I can start to see some of the attachment concerns that could arise, especially at the age of 11 - as peers can become so all important.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *intentionalmama* 
So, today I had some thoughts about attachment parenting. I was thinking about Gordon Neufeld and some of his thoughts from his book "Hold on to your Kids." The idea that the attachment between parents and children should be the most important relationships in children's lives. So, I started thinking more about this whole camp situation. At first I thought, well 11 is older then 7 and maybe at that age it would be fine. But the more I think about it the more I am thinking about how 11 is a preteen and sending off an 11 year old to a camp for 10 days without access to her parent (unless of course in emergency or she is having a rough time) her compass point then becomes her peer and the camp counsellors. And is that necessarily such a good thing?.

See, for me, attachment parenting is all about giving your children a solid base from which they can go forth and flourish in the world. Its NOT about permanently binding your children to you so they don't ever go beyond you. While each child will reach different "fly away from the nest' milestones at different times, they all need to fly eventually. Otherwise, you have a terrible waste of potential and arrested development. We aren't meant to spend our entire lives at our parents sides, any more than we are meant to spend our entire lives drinking breast milk. I want my children to be secure in my love precisely so they have a base from which to turn to their peers and other adults. This is an essential part of their development. To not have them do this, when they are ready and with guidance, is to deny them an essential part of their humanity, IMHO. Be their north star, by all means. But let their compass points turn to peers, other adults, and eventually a spouse as they are ready.


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## accountclosed2 (May 28, 2007)

A camp I went to at age 12 had the policy of no phone calls in the first three days, as they claimed it would have made the kids more homesick. While I was fine, 2 younger girls, a 7 and an 8-y-o were not. They sat in the dining hall crying, for three days (except when they were made to go to bed, when they still cried). It was awful. After those three days they called home, begged their parents to pick them up and their parents did. As I remember, the parents weren't impressed.

I think that reasoning, no calls because it will cause homesickness is stupid. I do know that if I had been homesick, talking to my mother, telling her about my day, would make me feel much better.


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## intentionalmama (Aug 23, 2008)

Firstly, I agree with your words "that attachment parenting is all about giving your children a solid base from which they can go forth and flourish in the world. Its NOT about permanently binding your children to you so they don't ever go beyond you." Evan and Anna's Mum. (sorry I don't know how to do the quote thing) I also believe that from a healthy attachment children will be able to go forth in the world and have a strong sense of self. I agree that it is not healthy for a child to always remained tied to a parent.

However, the teen years can be quite difficult for kids. Growing up, peers were everything to me. When I read "Hold on to your kids" while I admit some of it felt rather fear based to me, his concept that parents needed to be the main attachment to children (they have the children's best interest at heart) felt very strange. He felt that it seems strange, because most of us grew up with peers being the most important. He is not saying, and neither am I that this should be through out life. But, that teenage years are probably when they need us the most and when it is really important to try and keep those connections open and our attachments as lovingly strong as possible.

So for me the quandry comes in when I think about a child whose primary compass is their parent; goes to camp where now their compass are peers and strangers for 10 days. Does this affect the attachment? I guess when I think about it - the answer is probably no - the parent would be still be the most important - however - a new paradigm is introduced - at a time - when pressure to "be like everyone" else is very strong. Just makes me think.

Lesley


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *intentionalmama* 
Firstly, I agree with your words "that attachment parenting is all about giving your children a solid base from which they can go forth and flourish in the world. Its NOT about permanently binding your children to you so they don't ever go beyond you." Evan and Anna's Mum. (sorry I don't know how to do the quote thing) I also believe that from a healthy attachment children will be able to go forth in the world and have a strong sense of self. I agree that it is not healthy for a child to always remained tied to a parent.

However, the teen years can be quite difficult for kids. Growing up, peers were everything to me. When I read "Hold on to your kids" while I admit some of it felt rather fear based to me, his concept that parents needed to be the main attachment to children (they have the children's best interest at heart) felt very strange. He felt that it seems strange, because most of us grew up with peers being the most important. He is not saying, and neither am I that this should be through out life. But, that teenage years are probably when they need us the most and when it is really important to try and keep those connections open and our attachments as lovingly strong as possible.

So for me the quandry comes in when I think about a child whose primary compass is their parent; goes to camp where now their compass are peers and strangers for 10 days. Does this affect the attachment? I guess when I think about it - the answer is probably no - the parent would be still be the most important - however - a new paradigm is introduced - at a time - when pressure to "be like everyone" else is very strong. Just makes me think.

Lesley

I think this is one reason to choose a camp carefully. But as I said upthread, for me that was so positive. Having a second group of friends gave me a secure base from which to resist some pressure during the school year. I also developed a really different self-image; during the year I wasn't really good enough for athletic teams, etc., but at camp I came to appreciate myself as a swimmer and canoeist.

But that's kind of an argument for camp and not about phone calls.







I guess for me attachment is not about daily contact (as kids get older) but about an internal sense of acceptance and love. Being away from my parents without regular contact (I still agree that any camp would allow calls in an emergency or with serious homesickness) was, for me, an important step in my development as a person who sees herself as able to experience being away and alone as a positive thing. (As opposed to cut off and lonely.)


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## skueppers (Mar 30, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *intentionalmama* 
But, it just seems that I can start to see some of the attachment concerns that could arise, especially at the age of 11 - as peers can become so all important.

I was thinking about Hold On To Your Kids in the context of this camp question, too. But the conclusion I came to is that because going to camp is by its nature a vacation from regular life, the types of attachment concerns Neufeld writes about are unlikely to occur.

Among other things, once camp is over, kids usually don't see their camp friends again until next summer!

Neufeld writes a lot about the competition between parents and peers for the child's primary attachment, and it seems to me that this competition simply can't occur in the camp situation. I also think that the sort of thing he's talking about isn't going to happen in a few weeks -- it sounded to me like a process that would take a longer time.


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## jeminijad (Mar 27, 2009)

7 would be too young IMO, yes.

But I do not find it unhealthy at all for an 11 year old to learn to spend a period of time building new relationships outside of the sphere of her immediate family (parents) reach. Learning to cope with the issues that may arise without mom or dad isn't a bad thing. I agree that this sounds more like your needs than hers.

I'm glad that you are letting her go! And next year, at age 12, she'll practically be a teenager!


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AislinCarys* 
A camp I went to at age 12 had the policy of no phone calls in the first three days, as they claimed it would have made the kids more homesick. While I was fine, 2 younger girls, a 7 and an 8-y-o were not. They sat in the dining hall crying, for three days (except when they were made to go to bed, when they still cried). It was awful. After those three days they called home, begged their parents to pick them up and their parents did. As I remember, the parents weren't impressed.

I think that reasoning, no calls because it will cause homesickness is stupid. I do know that if I had been homesick, talking to my mother, telling her about my day, would make me feel much better.

With all of my camp experience I find this horrifying!! The camps I have worked at would have either allowed a call for these 2 kids, or a camp counselor or director would have called for them and spoken with the parents about the situation!

I would research a camp more thoroughly before sending a kid of the ages of 7 & 8 - some can handle it and some can't. Also, counselors who are in charge of the younger 7 and 8 year old campers are the BEST counselors I've ever seen, and very dedicated to their jobs - I really don't know how they do it since they are sleep deprived most of the time!


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## intentionalmama (Aug 23, 2008)

*Skueppers* "I was thinking about Hold On To Your Kids in the context of this camp question, too. But the conclusion I came to is that because going to camp is by its nature a vacation from regular life, the types of attachment concerns Neufeld writes about are unlikely to occur.

Neufeld writes a lot about the competition between parents and peers for the child's primary attachment, and it seems to me that this competition simply can't occur in the camp situation. "

Thanks for your insight. I find this helpful. Never having been to camp - I really have no idea what it is really like.

I really like *British Mum's* experience of camp:"Camp isn't such a big thing in the UK, but I did go to one camp as a kid. And there were pay phones. And there were no limits whatsoever on using them to call anyone you chose to call. And there were no logistical problems with it either. I just recall us hanging around waiting for a phone to be free in the evenings, chatting and eating candy and larking around as we did so. It was no chaotic big deal, just kids hanging out while they waited turns. And there was more that a hundred kids there. And no cell phones in those days either!

Some kids called a lot, some didn't call at all. I think I called once or twice during the week. "

This sounds so natural, healthy, and relaxed to me. It makes me wonder if it would really be such a big deal to have a pay phone kids could use. Perhaps we just think it would be. It sounds like some kids would be too busy to call, some would call maybe once or twice and perhaps some more often. But maybe those ones who did call more often - needed to. I guess I question if a camp really needs to enforce a cut off from parents during that time (in the best interest of the kids).

Lesley


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## Eavesdrop (Nov 19, 2005)

The camp I worked as a counselor at didn't allow phone calls for the 1st three days.

The reason the parents were given: the no-phone-calls rule fosters independence and helps the campers bond with the camp.

The reason staff was given: kids call home crying and their parents come and get them. camp loses campers. bad for business.


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## zinemama (Feb 2, 2002)

GuildJenn, did you by any chance go to one of the Farm and Wilderness Camps?

Camp person here for sure: went as a kid, worked as a counselor. They all had the same rule. Which of course, _of course_ would have been suspended in an emergency. Writing letters home once or twice a week was a big part of camp - we had to come prepared with stamped, addressed envelopes. I loved writing and receiving letters while I was at camp and don't ever remember missing my parents.


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *intentionalmama* 
You just really want to know that she is ok, and that you will miss her. Sounds like pretty normal feelings to me.
Lesley

Thank you. I was starting to feel that there was something wrong with me. I asked the camp, "Are there really parents who drop off their seven-year-olds for five days?" They said, there are some that drop them off for four weeks!


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
I was 11 when I started to go to overnight camp and I did just fine. I had a blast being away from my parents!

I am sure she will do just fine and have a blast. She is independent and strong and bold and smart. I just think that no phone contact with parents feels wrong to both me and my husband and to her.


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *~pi* 
Honestly, I don't think this is about AP. You aren't talking about what your 11 year old daughter needs -- you are talking about what you want as a parent. . . . Who is the camp for, again?








mama. I would be shocked if they didn't allow phone calls in exceptional circumstances (i.e. something horrible happening.)

Well, when I posted this, I thought is was only my issue, but I have asked her again and she wants to talk to me over the telephone. She will go to camp and not talk to me if they insist because she is dying to go and will make that sacrifice. But it feels unnatural to her too.


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## txgal (Jul 16, 2003)

haven't read the previous post but just wanted to comment that I think most camps have a similar rule. The camp I went to as a kid didn't allow calls, but it wasn't a hard and fast rule. If a kid was really having a hard time they could call home or if they got hurt or something. I actually started my period for the first time at camp and they let me call my mom. My niece broke her wrist at the same camp a couple years ago and she was able to call home. The rule is there so that they aren't getting bombarded by phone calls all day, but I am sure if the situation warranted it she could call you.


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pigpokey* 
Also, you can always call the camp during office hours, right? And say, how is my daughter doing?

Generally when I was growing up, and as a counselor at Girl Scout camp, camp was No Calls. But that didn't mean if a child got hysterical they couldn't call home.

They assured me they would call if it was an emergency or if a kid was so homesick that they just weren't functioning. My daughter asked how often does a kid go home, and they said, "we have one about every other year that goes home."


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *LaughingHyena* 
Now quite a few of the kids come with their own phones and I hate to say it is a real pain. The child with the phone often gets more upset after phoning home and the kids without phones are more upset because they can't phone.

My idea is that the camp should allow cell phones but not let kids keep them on them at all time. Or, better, I LOVE the pay phone idea!. If they do cell phone, then all the camp has to do is line up the cell phones and give kids 5 or 10 minutes in the morning when they line up all the cell phones and let them call who they want. I am sure some of them do not want to talk for 10 minutes, they can share with the ones who didn't bring cell phones.


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I worked at a really good camp for many years. (How to talk so kids will listen... and Parent Effectiveness Training were the core curriculum for counsellor training and it was where I first ran into the whole concept of GD.)

I LOVED that book!


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## Storm Bride (Mar 2, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum* 
Camp isn't such a big thing in the UK, but I did go to one camp as a kid. And there were pay phones. And there were no limits whatsoever on using them to call anyone you chose to call. And there were no logistical problems with it either. I just recall us hanging around waiting for a phone to be free in the evenings, chatting and eating candy and larking around as we did so. It was no chaotic big deal, just kids hanging out while they waited turns. And there was more that a hundred kids there. And no cell phones in those days either!









I mentioned this thread to dh, and he said something similar. He's from the US, but he said that when he was a Boy Scout, this was the way it worked. The kids just used the phone during free time, if they felt like doing so.

I've never been to overnight camp, except "Outdoor School", which is a lot different. You go to that as a class, and share a cabin with 4-5 classmates, so the "stranger" effect isn't really there, except for the cabin counselor.


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *velochic* 
I don't think this is about AP, either. The attachment part also means that as they mature, you let go according to their needs. If she wants to go and is O.K. with being out of contact except in the case of emergency, then let her go. If she is not comfortable with it, then try to find a camp/day camp that you can attend with her.

She is excited about this camp because of the horseback riding. Darn, I should have already put her in horseback riding classes locally, and then maybe she wouldn't be so excited about this one.

I did find one that she and I could both do, Mother/Daughter horseback riding camp and she thought that was "too weird."


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mistymama* 
We were not allowed phone contact, but we did get letters from our parents and that was so much fun.

I am planning to write her a letter every day and also to send her a care package every day. She already warned me that she would be having too much fun to write every day. I said that was fine.


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MaterPrimaePuellae* 
Even more-- if someone told me that they were taking away from husband and daughter for a month so I could become "independent"-- oh, and no phone calls, because that would lengthen my acclimation-- I would NOT be pleased.

This is exactly how I feel. Nobody is suggesting a wife and a husband separate so they can become independent, so why should a child be separated from parents? That makes no sense to me. If my child wants to go to sleep away camp, she will go. But I think it is SO VERY UNNATURAL that everybody thinks it is OK not to have telephone contact if both the parent and the child want it.


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
As a girl in particular, spending a month (and then two months) in a media-free, mostly boy-free environment helped me to hold onto some aspects of myself that Mary Pipher talks about disappearing in her book _Reviving Ophelia_. Learning and applying the physical skills and having a group of friends that were in no way related to school was really great. Having young women in their late teens to mid twenties as role models and supporting me in loco parentis was fantastic in a lot of ways. I remember a few in particular: an openly lesbian artist; a phenomenal tennis player.

I love that book. And, I love that camp is all-girls and owned by a lesbian and has only one man on-site and he works in the kitchen away from the kids. I love that they have a three-to-one kid to teacher ratio. I love that she is going to make a new different set of friends. I love that she is doing something not related to her world, which is dance and theatre and singing. I love that she is going to be outdoors alot.


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
Sounds more like you have a problem with the idea that your DD could be fine at the camp without you!

No, I will be very happy if she is fine at the camp without me. I want her to be able to trust in people. I absolutely love the people that we met when we were there visiting.

I just want to be absolutely sure that she is safe and happy every day. I don't want to find out ten days later that she wasn't.


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thyra* 
My parents dropped us all off at the pickup point (we took busses to camp since it was on an island) and My little brother cried, and went kicking and screaming. That was the last my parents heard from him until 10 days later when they picked us all up! He had a BLAST - didn't even write a single letter! And, no more homesickness problems ever again. EVER.

I do think that is cruel. Sounds like Why don't we just put our newborns in cribs across the hall from us and let them cry until they fall asleep. That works too.


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thyra* 
And, find out if the camp is accredited by the American Camping Association - if they are this will speak alot about the camp.

Thank you, Thrya, I looked it up and it is accredited!


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Amys1st* 
If all of this dosent jive with you, keep her home this summer but be prepared to have something else available for her, since she seems ready to me.

I can't keep her at home. I wouldn't do that to her. We can both live with that rule, but I just disagree with it so much.


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *snoopy5386* 
Can you call the camp every day and speak to her counselor to see if she is doing ok?

Yes, I can call and I probably will. They already think I am weird though. Twice during my first call to her, she told me to find another camp. We visited on a Friday and then again the next morning. We put a deposit down. When we called for a followup, she asked, "Now is she really going to do this camp and be away from you for so long?" I am kinda afraid that they will get mad and return my money and then I will have a heart-broken kid.


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skueppers* 
I would encourage you to think about this in terms of whether you trust your daughter to be right about her ability to handle this. I suspect that if she thinks she can handle it, she can. You might also consider what message you would be sending her about your confidence in her judgement and self-knowledge if you didn't let her go.

This isn't about not letting her go. I already told her she could go and she is soooo happy. Neither of us is happy about this one weird rule, however.


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Storm Bride* 
[My dh is] from the US, but he said that when he was a Boy Scout, this was the way it worked. The kids just used the phone during free time, if they felt like doing so.

That seems so sensible to me.


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karne* 
Someone pointed me in the direction of some camp resources on the web that talked about seperation and managing homesickness successfully as a developmental piece for the kids.

Thank you. I will look for those resources.


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karemore* 
I agree with you. It sounds unnatural to me and I'd have a hard time with that policy.

I wouldn't be away from my husband that long without talking with him and I certainly wouldn't be away from my child without talking with her and knowing she could call me if she wanted to.

Thank you. I was feeling so alone in the world.


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Scottishduffy* 
Camp was a very short gift every summer and the friends I met there i may not ever see again. Sure, many of came back year after year... but sadly some couldn't. I wanted to treasure the moments that i knew would be so short lived. Home would always be there.... my camp friends would not. BTW... 10 years after my last summer I still keep in touch with camp friends. Camp remains the most profoundly positive experience of my life and I wish both you and your daughter all the best!

I asked around alot in those two days that I was there and heard great stories. One person told me, "Oh yeah, I heard about that place. I heard that women come back and drop off their daughters after they are all grown up and want their daughters to experience this camp.


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mama Phoebe* 
I have worked at camp for years and years and one of the camps I worked at for the longest had a pay phone on site that kids would line up to use during the choice time period. That camp had a lot of international campers who would call home every couple of days to check in. . . Yes, I think the kids cry more when they talk to their parents. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. They ARE away from their parents. That IS a little bit sad. Distracting kids from being sad isn't what we're all about.


I LOVE the pay phone idea.

And, yes, I don't think crying is a bad thing either. I know my kid. I would talk to her she would most likely be super happy. If she cried, I would be sad, and ask do you want me to come for me. If she said yes, I would go. But more than likely she would say, Mom I am just sad because I am talking to you and I miss you, but I am having a blast here. Please don't come.


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *intentionalmama* 
I was thinking about Gordon Neufeld and some of his thoughts from his book "Hold on to your Kids." The idea that the attachment between parents and children should be the most important relationships in children's lives.

I can't wait to read this book. I agree with the idea!


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom* 
We aren't meant to spend our entire lives at our parents sides, any more than we are meant to spend our entire lives drinking breast milk.

We are very attached to our daughter and her thoughts at the present is never to live anywhere than with us. I KNOW that will not happen. "You are going to college with me to make sure I don't drink, right mom"? I chuckle when she says that because she is much to independent to really mean that she is taking me with her to college when she turns 18.

I don't want to nurse her forever (although for a while there, I thought she would







.)


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamatoElias* 
Could you send a cell phone with her to use only if necessary?

Cell phones are not allowed and camper will be sent home if a cell phone is found.


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum* 
Wow, I'm so surprised that a no-phone policy is normal. Camp isn't such a big thing in the UK, but I did go to one camp as a kid. And there were pay phones. And there were no limits whatsoever on using them to call anyone you chose to call. And there were no logistical problems with it either. I just recall us hanging around waiting for a phone to be free in the evenings, chatting and eating candy and larking around as we did so. It was no chaotic big deal, just kids hanging out while they waited turns. And there was more that a hundred kids there. And no cell phones in those days either!









Sigh. Thanks!


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruth* 
This is exactly how I feel. Nobody is suggesting a wife and a husband separate so they can become independent, so why should a child be separated from parents? That makes no sense to me. If my child wants to go to sleep away camp, she will go. But I think it is SO VERY UNNATURAL that everybody thinks it is OK not to have telephone contact if both the parent and the child want it.

I would expect my husband to all ready be independant. I'm not going to marry someone if they can't take care of themselves.

And as I pointed out (in the other thread I believe), sometimes a husband and wife do need to be seperated from each other with limited contact for various reasons. When DH spent six months working out of town, we didn't contact each other every single day.


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *AislinCarys* 
A camp I went to at age 12 had the policy of no phone calls in the first three days, as they claimed it would have made the kids more homesick. While I was fine, 2 younger girls, a 7 and an 8-y-o were not. They sat in the dining hall crying, for three days (except when they were made to go to bed, when they still cried). It was awful. After those three days they called home, begged their parents to pick them up and their parents did. As I remember, the parents weren't impressed.

That is the most horrible camp story that I ever heard.


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *intentionalmama* 
I really like *British Mum's* experience of camp:"Camp isn't such a big thing in the UK, but I did go to one camp as a kid. And there were pay phones. And there were no limits whatsoever on using them to call anyone you chose to call. And there were no logistical problems with it either. I just recall us hanging around waiting for a phone to be free in the evenings, chatting and eating candy and larking around as we did so. It was no chaotic big deal, just kids hanging out while they waited turns. And there was more that a hundred kids there. And no cell phones in those days either! Some kids called a lot, some didn't call at all. I think I called once or twice during the week. "

This sounds so natural, healthy, and relaxed to me. It makes me wonder if it would really be such a big deal to have a pay phone kids could use. Perhaps we just think it would be. It sounds like some kids would be too busy to call, some would call maybe once or twice and perhaps some more often. But maybe those ones who did call more often - needed to. I guess I question if a camp really needs to enforce a cut off from parents during that time (in the best interest of the kids).

My daughter isn't a telephone talker. She calls me when I am not at home, "mom where are you? when are you going to be home." I try to ask her stuff and she will say, we'll talk about that when you get home. I know my daughter would call just to say she is fine and happy (or to tell me to send her something she forgot!). And, that's all I want. I don't need to spend alot on the phone with her.


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Eavesdrop* 
The camp I worked as a counselor at didn't allow phone calls for the 1st three days. The reason the parents were given: the no-phone-calls rule fosters independence and helps the campers bond with the camp.The reason staff was given: kids call home crying and their parents come and get them. camp loses campers. bad for business.

I think this is really what is going on. I want to tell them, look, just let my kid call me every day. You can keep my money if she wants to go home. But although we have a guaranteed spot because we put our deposit, they have a waiting list! So, again, I feel like they are just going to say, "we have had enough of you, your kid can't come here.


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Thank you everybody for all your help. You have given me lots to think about!

Ruth


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruth* 
No, I will be very happy if she is fine at the camp without me. I want her to be able to trust in people. I absolutely love the people that we met when we were there visiting.

I just want to be absolutely sure that she is safe and happy every day. I don't want to find out ten days later that she wasn't.

While I understand wanting her to be safe every day, I think it's pretty unrealistic to expect anyone anywhere to be happy everyday. Life is not like that.


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *choli* 
While I understand wanting her to be safe every day, I think it's pretty unrealistic to expect anyone anywhere to be happy everyday. Life is not like that.

You are right. It is unrealistic to expect her to be happy everyday. I guess what I meant was that if she is miserable, I want to know by her telling me over the telephone call, not in a letter that I will get three days letter and not ten days after I drop her off.


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## KarlaC (Mar 20, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruth* 
I do think that is cruel. Sounds like Why don't we just put our newborns in cribs across the hall from us and let them cry until they fall asleep. That works too.

Heh my oldest dd was teary when she left for camp(not hysterical, just misty). When we picked her up a week later she WAS hysterical, but not because she wanted to come home..because she didn't want to leave camp.

They didn't allow phone calls either & I worried, she's terrified of storms & there were 3..yanno what she told me after? That the kids who were scared sat up with the counsellors & sang songs, did some crafts & she forgot all about the storm.

Ymmv.


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## choli (Jun 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruth* 
You are right. It is unrealistic to expect her to be happy everyday. I guess what I meant was that if she is miserable, I want to know by her telling me over the telephone call, not in a letter that I will get three days letter and not ten days after I drop her off.











Hello Muddah, hello Faddah
Here I am at camp Grenada
Camp is very entertaining
And they say we'll have some fun if it stops raining

I went hiking with Joe Spivey
He developed poison ivy
You remember Leonard Skinner
He got ptomaine poisoning last night after dinner

All the counselors hate the waiters
And the lake has alligators
And the head coach wants no sissies
So he reads to us from something called Ulysses

Now I don't want this should scare ya'
But my bunkmate has malaria
You remember Jeffery Hardy
They're about to organize a searching party

Take me home, oh Muddah, Faddah
Take me home, I hate Grenada
Don't leave me out in the forest where
I might get eaten by a bear

Take me home, I promise I will
Not make noise, or mess the house with
Other boys, oh please don't make me stay
I've been here one whole day

Dearest Fadduh, Darling Muddah
How's my precious little bruddah
Let me come home if you miss me
I would even let Aunt Bertha hug and kiss me

Wait a minute, it's stopped hailing
Guys are swimming, guys are sailing
Playing baseball, gee that's bettah
*Muddah, Faddah kindly disregard this letter*


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## churndash (Mar 25, 2009)

Quote:

I wouldn't be away from my husband that long without talking with him and I certainly wouldn't be away from my child without talking with her and knowing she could call me if she wanted to.

Military families go for months, even over a year, without being able to talk to each other by phone and they survive.

I think the bottom line here is that many camps have this policy and your choice is to either comply with the policy or not send your child to camp.

Whether we agree or disagree with the policy or the reasoning behind it is moot.

OP, it's wonderful that you are going to work through your anxiety about this and let your daughter have this experience that she wants so badly. You'll both be fine, I'm sure.


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## Kushali (Sep 17, 2006)

I went to 5 different camps at a child. Two had the "no phone calls" rule. Both of those camps were very structured. Campers were always directly supervised by counselors and there was no free time. Unless there was extra staff we went everywhere together, if one girl got sick we all walked to the infirmary to drop her off with the nurse. In that type of environment it really can be a logistical nightmare to make daily phone calls. Especially when there's only one phone and its a quarter mile or more away.

The other camps only accepted older kids (11+) and so we had free time to wander around and do whatever we pleased. These all had a pay phone and allowed phone calls. The line was usually really long though so the kids who called home missed most of their free time. I did call home a couple times but calling home meant missing out on something else so I usually chose not to.

At most camps making a phone call means missing out on something fun. And often just hearing "I miss you so much" can make a previously happy camper feel sad. It seems illogical, but no phone calls does mean happier campers a lot of the time.


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## mtiger (Sep 10, 2006)

Note: I have not read all of the responses.

As a former camper, counselor, Scout leader and parent, I have to say that it's a good policy. IMO.

When I was a kid going to camp, it was nice to have the opportunity to be a bit more grown-up than I felt like I was able to be at home. I allowed me (and my parents) to see that I could take care of myself without them (and I suspect this may be the main "problem" you're having, Ruth), albeit while still well supervised.

As a counselor, the few times when kids DID call their parents (or the parents called camp and insisted on talking to the kid), we ended up having to deal with a very distraught child. It wasn't fun for the child, it wasn't fun for the parent, and it sure wasn't fun for us.

As a Scout leader in the era of cell phones, calls home are a pain in the neck. We had a policy that there were to be no cell phones along, except those that the leaders brought. THOSE phones were for to be used in emergencies only, so it's not like the adults were yakking away while the kids pined for their phones. But... you could bet that there were always a few who brought them along anyway. And then spent the majority of the time at camp texting, calling friends and parents, and pretty much doing anything BUT participating with the group. We got the predictable complaints from child to parent about how mean the leaders were, making them do icky stuff like cook, do dishes, clean the campsite, etc. And the predictable calls from parents about how terrible it was that their precious had to do such "dirty" jobs. It was really quite unfair to the kids (I'm talking both girl and boy scouts) whose parents (a) didn't allow them to bring a cell and (b) didn't want to hear the complaining.

And as a parent... I have always felt that one of the most important things I could do as a parent is to raise well-adjusted and independent young adults. One of the hardest parts of that is letting go at various stages. But it's something that has to be done. I suspect, Ruth, that it's something you're having trouble with - and that's understandable. None of us like seeing our kids grow up and away. But your daughter is telling you that she's ready for this step. Listen to her and let her take it.


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

dear everybody,

i am Ruth's daughter Maya. I am really looking forward to camping, but i think my mom has the right 2 worry about me. i also think that it is sad when a mom does not worry or miss their kid. and i will miss her, i will also b homesick, but does that mean i will want 2 come home? no & yes, but if i really want to come home i will find a way. it will probably NOT happen. oh, and i like AP,

Maya G
------,---'[email protected]


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *churndash* 
Whether we agree or disagree with the policy or the reasoning behind it is moot. OP, it's wonderful that you are going to work through your anxiety about this and let your daughter have this experience that she wants so badly. You'll both be fine, I'm sure.

My daughter and I both disagree with the policy. My questions was not whether people here agree or disagree. My question was whether this felt unnatural. And, to me, not talking to her for 10 days feels so unnatural.

Thank you for your encouraging words. I am sure we will both be fine.


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## Daphneduck (Jan 22, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruth* 
dear everybody,

i also think that it is sad when a mom does not worry or miss their kid.

Maya G
------,---'[email protected]

I think that you can reassure your daughter that most people would miss their child. And maybe explain to her that lack of worry does not mean lack of love.


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Daphneduck* 
I think that you can reassure your daughter that most people would miss their child. And maybe explain to her that lack of worry does not mean lack of love.

I think she had in mind those parents who go off to Europe for 4 weeks and drop off their seven-year-old who is not ready for camp and pay extra for the child to be taken care of between the camp sessions. The camp director told us the counselors love when that happens and also absolutely love it to when the parents forget to leave any medication that the children need.


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## SparklingGemini (Jan 3, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruth* 
My daughter and I both disagree with the policy. My questions was not whether people here agree or disagree. M*y question was whether this felt unnatural.* And, to me, not talking to her for 10 days feels so unnatural.

Thank you for your encouraging words. I am sure we will both be fine.

(Bolding is mine)

Yes, yes, yes, YES!

It feels unnatural and wrong. Very wrong.

I could never have gone away to camp as a preteen, let alone a child as young as seven.

I don't think I'll allow DD to go to camp and/or be some place where I couldn't maintain voice contact with her until she is at least a teenager.

There's something not right about sleep away camp in general. And I was a camp counselor for many years, so do have some insight.


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## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

This may not be a popular thought, but here it is. I have found that my attitude about new situations greatly influences how my children feel about them. When my dd went off to summer camp, I owned my own very strong feelings about our seperation and her growing up. I kept the door open for my dd to express her feelings, but I was also very positive about her wish to go away, the strength of our bond, my trust in her judgement as well as my comfort with the camp and staff. I wanted to give her the gift of feeling believed in by me. I think that when we have been very discriminating and very attached with our kids that first step away is a big one. But the meaning of it for the parent is far different than that for the child, IMO.

Op, you asked if this was normal or not? I would say yes, although last year our local paper ran a story about how how camping has changed over the years. It seems these days parents are asking for daily videos of their kids, access by phone or text, essentially on demand contact. So maybe this is the "new normal"? I think it's too bad, myself, and I don't want my kids at a camp like this because that's not really my idea of camp. If the lack of contact is such a big deal maybe day camp would be a better fit for you and your dd?


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruth* 
I think she had in mind those parents who go off to Europe for 4 weeks and drop off their seven-year-old who is not ready for camp and pay extra for the child to be taken care of between the camp sessions. The camp director told us the counselors love when that happens and also absolutely love it to when the parents forget to leave any medication that the children need.

I sincerely hope that the camp director was being sarcastic when she said this!!!! (the part about counselors love when kids don't have medication - I always hated that!)

I also think it would be safe to say (of course not in all situations) that these parents do not practice AP. A parent that drops of their child for several weeks who is older and is ready for that long a stay away from home is different of course.

My parents always missed us when we were gone at camp, and we missed them - but we couldn't wait to tell them all about our crazy fun camp adventures when we got home and would often try and talk over each other to tell them...


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruth* 
dear everybody,

i am Ruth's daughter Maya. I am really looking forward to camping, but i think my mom has the right 2 worry about me. i also think that it is sad when a mom does not worry or miss their kid. and i will miss her, i will also b homesick, but does that mean i will want 2 come home? no & yes, but if i really want to come home i will find a way. it will probably NOT happen. oh, and i like AP,

Maya G
------,---'[email protected]


All moms have the right to worry about their kids! Thats what moms do, its part of the job description. and I'm sure your mom will miss you - I know I miss my son even when I'm only gone to be in class for a few hours - and I could call home to check on him anytime I wanted!

When i was your age and at camp, I missed my parents, but more in a way that made me excited to tell them all about what I did, and those thoughts were very fleeting at the end of a long fun day while I was falling asleep at night! I really hope you have fun at camp - I loved going to camp!


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## churndash (Mar 25, 2009)

Quote:

My daughter and I both disagree with the policy. My questions was not whether people here agree or disagree. My question was whether this felt unnatural. And, to me, not talking to her for 10 days feels so unnatural.
Those are pretty much the same thing, IMO.

Yes, it will feel unusual to not talk to her for 10 days. But I disagree with the use of "unnatural", which I think has a pejorative context.

It is perfectly natural for children to become increasingly independent from their parents as they get older.

Ten days of summer camp at age 11 - Ten weeks at an out of state college at age 18.

I love my daughter every bit as much as you love yours. That I sent her to summer camp for a week every summer and wasn't able to talk to her by phone does not mean I love her one iota less or that I didn't worry about her, or that our relationship isn't natural, or that our bond has been remotely lessened by the experience.

You seem deeply distressed at the prospect of her attending this camp, and it's clear your daughter has picked up on that. I wonder if it's such a good idea to attend now...she might spend the whole week worrying about you worrying about her and not have much fun.


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## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *churndash* 

You seem deeply distressed at the prospect of her attending this camp, and it's clear your daughter has picked up on that. I wonder if it's such a good idea to attend now...she might spend the whole week worrying about you worrying about her and not have much fun.

Yes. That's what I was trying to say, but not doing it well, in my post. At a certain point I think that we tip the balance with our own needs, and kids pick up on it. A general comment-not saying op you're necessarily doing this, although the post by your dd makes me wonder a bit. Maybe just something to think about?


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## Ruth (Nov 19, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *thyra* 
I sincerely hope that the camp director was being sarcastic when she said this!!!! (the part about counselors love when kids don't have medication - I always hated that!)

Yes, they were being sarcastic.


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## _betsy_ (Jun 29, 2004)

Didn't read every post, so maybe this was covered already, but can't you send her to camp with a cell phone, maybe one of those pay-as-you-go types, and have her call home each night (every other night/whatever she wants) after their dinnertime, or something?


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## MayBaby2007 (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruth* 
I am desperate for somebody to agree with me. Nobody agreed with me in another thread so I am starting this one.

Isn't it unnatural for a camp that accepts 7-year-olds to prohibit the 7-year-old and the parent to talk to each other by telephone for 10 days?

My daughter is not 7, she is 11. And she found this most wonderful perfect horseback riding camp. We visited it, we loved it, but they have a policy against telephone contact with a parent. They say it makes children more homesick. And, the logistics of letting 100 kids call their parents every day would be nightmarish.

I don't want to talk to her for hours, I just want to hear her every day say, I am fine mom, I am happy, a little homesick, but I had a great time today kayaking. Love you, bye.

The kids are allowed to write letters and you can write letters to them. We already put the deposit down and my daughter is dying to go, so I am going to let her go.

It just feels so unnatural, not to be able to talk to your own child. I thought people here, who nurse their children and practice attachment parenting, and are SAHM (I am a working mom), would understand how I feel. I am so dying to think that something horrible would happen and I couldn't be there for my only child.

Help, I need your comments even if you disagree with me.


Haven't read other replies, but I completely agree with you.

There is something *not right* with not allowing the child to call home.

Wasn't there a scary movie or something like this? No, seriously. There was a movie I saw where the kids were treated really horrible and they weren't allowed to phone home. They wrote letters asking for help, but the camp counselors never mailed them. I don't know...but I know I saw it before.

What if she had a problem with a counselor--picking on her or whatever--and they wouldn't let her phone home, even for an emergency? What if a boy was messing with her and you were the only one she trusted to talk to? The list is endless.

The movie aside, I just do not think it's a good idea. At all. No way. Nope. I would never be away from my kid and w/o communication. Either arm your daughter with a cell phone or keep her home. (Honestly, I would keep her home and let her "hate" me for how ever long she needed to!). I'm having an anxiety attack thinking about not being _allowed_ to see/talk to my kid for x-amount of days.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

MayBaby, camps that have a no phone policy are also willing to allow contact with the parents when there is an emergency.

Honestly I am surprised by the number of people here who think it _is_ unnatural for someone to not talk to their parent for ten days. You don't have to talk to your parents every single day to love them, or to miss them when your away from them. I do think it's become a bit of a problem in our society. I can understand that a 7 year old may very well not be ready, but once you get to be a teen most are ready and capable of being away from their parents and not having phone contact every night before bed with out any ill effects. If it were unnatural, then the children wouldn't naturally reach a point where they were able or even desired such an experience. Since they _do_ eventually reach that point, unless there is an attachment issue, it is natural.


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## Mama Phoebe (Feb 25, 2005)

Are there any camps that run shorter programs in your area? Like a five day camp? Or if horses are the main focus - what about a horse day camp program? What have you decided, OP?


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## intentionalmama (Aug 23, 2008)

Hi Ruth, it sounds like you and your daughter have a wonderful relationship. I chuckled when you wrote

"We are very attached to our daughter and her thoughts at the present is never to live anywhere than with us. I KNOW that will not happen. "You are going to college with me to make sure I don't drink, right mom"? I chuckle when she says that because she is much to independent to really mean that she is taking me with her to college when she turns 18.
I don't want to nurse her forever (although for a while there, I thought she would.)"

I think it is so great that you guys are able to discuss things. She wants to go to this fabulous camp, you want her to go, and she is going to go - but a no phone policy, sounds so foreign to your relationship, that it is hard to get your head around it.

I really hope you guys are able to update us after the camp and let us know how it all went. Never having been to camp before I asked a few people the other day if they had gone (they are now in there early twenties). They had all gone, all had a great time, and they all had access to a phone during certain time frames each evening if they wanted to use it. These camps would have been in British Columbia, Canada. Just thought it was interesting.

Lesley


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## skueppers (Mar 30, 2005)

I wonder if some of us responding to this thread are just old-fashioned. My parents were born in the 1930's, so when they were growing up, telephone contact, particularly with someone far away, was special and unusual. When I was growing up, they primarily communicated with their own parents by mail, calling them on the telephone only rarely.

When I went camping with the Girl Scouts in the early 1980's, it wouldn't even have occurred to us to call our parents on the telephone. When we were away from our parents, we were used to being out of contact with them.

When I went to England with the Girl Scouts at 15 (in 1985), I didn't call them once during the entire three weeks I was gone, and they didn't expect me to. I think some of the other girls did call their parents, because I remember feeding coins into a pay phone to keep someone's call going!

I left my parents' house more than 20 years ago, and since then, have normally spoken with my parents on the phone every 2-6 weeks.

The summer camp phenomenon in the USA, with all of its assorted traditions, has been around for much longer than regular telephone contact has been an expected part of life. I imagine that one of the reasons phone contact during camp isn't the norm is for historical reasons, which have now become traditions that are perceived as "normal" and "natural" by people who are part of the camp world.


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## BAU3 (Dec 10, 2001)

I thonk its great that you are letting your daughter go despite your reservations about the no contact. You obviously have her best interests at heart instead of your own, and thats really hard to do.

It does not seem unnatural,to me, to not have contact with my son when he goes to camp. I feel confident in his, and the camp's, ability to contact me if there is a problem.

I say that not to imply that your worry is somehow wrong or bad, but to say that everyone is different and what may seem unnatural to some may be perfectly accepatable to others. To imply otherwise is imo, judgmental.

My ds has gone to camp since he was 8, which according to many people here is entirely too young and he can't possibly be loved or cared for by me because I can go three weeks without talking to him. I could go three weeks without talking to my husband, too... none of it has to do with teaching independence. Its just part of an experience that ds has chosen to be a part of. thats ok with me.

While it may not seem right or "natural" to some, its wrong to assume that those that are fine with it are somehow not normal and don't have good, strong relationships with their children or spouses. Different strokes for different folks....some kids are ready for camp at 7.. some are never ready.. nobody is right or wrong, you know?


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MayBaby2007* 
Haven't read other replies, but I completely agree with you.

There is something *not right* with not allowing the child to call home.

Wasn't there a scary movie or something like this? No, seriously. There was a movie I saw where the kids were treated really horrible and they weren't allowed to phone home. They wrote letters asking for help, but the camp counselors never mailed them. I don't know...but I know I saw it before.

What if she had a problem with a counselor--picking on her or whatever--and they wouldn't let her phone home, even for an emergency? What if a boy was messing with her and you were the only one she trusted to talk to? The list is endless.

The movie aside, I just do not think it's a good idea. At all. No way. Nope. I would never be away from my kid and w/o communication. Either arm your daughter with a cell phone or keep her home. (Honestly, I would keep her home and let her "hate" me for how ever long she needed to!). I'm having an anxiety attack thinking about not being _allowed_ to see/talk to my kid for x-amount of days.

Murdering all the campers is bad for business, honest.


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## egoldber (Nov 18, 2002)

I have been watching this thread with great interest. My 7 year old is going to Girl Scout sleep away camp for 7 days this summer (she will be almost 8 when she goes). But her camp is for girls who finished first or second grade this school year.

I would never, ever have suggested this camp to her, but she read about it herself in the Girl Scout camp brochure (it's the same brochure that has the day camps in it, which is what I was looking at LOL!!!). Ever since then, she has been really passionate about going. I had deep reservations at first. She is a picky eater, has never been particularly self sufficient and she has sensory issues. But for some reason this camp has become very important to her.

So I pointed out to her some issues she might encounter (taking care of her own hair, food she is unfamiliar with) and rather than being daunted, she took these as challenges. She did research on what types of food would be at camp (talked to older scouts who had been to this camp) and has pushed herself to try new foods. She has been determined to learn to do things for herself that she has always been content previously for me to do for her. She made a daily journal on the computer that she printed out and decorated so that she would be able to write down her thoughts and experiences to share with us when she gets home. Honestly, I am enormously proud of how much she has grown already just at the prospect of wanting to go to this camp.

All the while I had my reservations, but ultimately it came down to this, which a PP said very well.

Quote:

I wanted to give her the gift of feeling believed in by me.
This. For me to say to her, I don't think you can do this thing that is very important to you because you are not capable of handling it (when clearly SHE does think she is capable of it), well I can't imagine the emotional devastation she would feel. And ultimately, I decided it was much better for her to try this and have even a not necessarily spectacular experience than for me to send her the message that this is not something that she is capable of.


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *skueppers* 
I wonder if some of us responding to this thread are just old-fashioned. My parents were born in the 1930's, so when they were growing up, telephone contact, particularly with someone far away, was special and unusual. When I was growing up, they primarily communicated with their own parents by mail, calling them on the telephone only rarely.

When I went camping with the Girl Scouts in the early 1980's, it wouldn't even have occurred to us to call our parents on the telephone. When we were away from our parents, we were used to being out of contact with them.

When I went to England with the Girl Scouts at 15 (in 1985), I didn't call them once during the entire three weeks I was gone, and they didn't expect me to. I think some of the other girls did call their parents, because I remember feeding coins into a pay phone to keep someone's call going!

I left my parents' house more than 20 years ago, and since then, have normally spoken with my parents on the phone every 2-6 weeks.

The summer camp phenomenon in the USA, with all of its assorted traditions, has been around for much longer than regular telephone contact has been an expected part of life. I imagine that one of the reasons phone contact during camp isn't the norm is for historical reasons, which have now become traditions that are perceived as "normal" and "natural" by people who are part of the camp world.

I was thinking this too-- my parents are rather younger than yours, but I'm only six years younger than you are. It may or may not be "unreasonable" to disallow campers from calling home, but "unnatural" isn't the right word-- to me, the technology that allows cheap and frequent phone contact is what is unnatural, strictly speaking!


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

p.s. egoldber I just saw your location. If the camp happens to be Potomac Woods, I went there when I was seven-almost-eight for a week-- no phone calls home-- and when my co-sleeping baby-wearing parents picked me up, the first thing I said to them was, "Hi! Can I stay another week?"


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## Ceinwen (Jul 1, 2004)

Going back to read the whole thread, but wanted to post while my toddler was quiet.

I went to sleep away camp as a child, and I'm soooo glad phone contact was not allowed.

There were way too many kids to manage it, we all wanted to call home, and it made the letters so much more special.


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## egoldber (Nov 18, 2002)

Quote:

If the camp happens to be Potomac Woods, I went there when I was seven-almost-eight for a week-- no phone calls home-- and when my co-sleeping baby-wearing par
Oh goodness it IS Potomac Woods! How funny!!!!


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## *LoveBugMama* (Aug 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum* 
Wow, I'm so surprised that a no-phone policy is normal.

I'm with you, even if I am a lone voice. I think it is most odd to deny kids the use of a phone. And I'm wondering how that works anyway in this day and age of cellphones.

My kids have no interest in going away to camps, and I have no interest in sending them. *Our summers are spent together*, and camp is just not part of my cultural expectation for them. But if and when they decide to go, I'd expect them to take a phone and be allowed to call home if they wished to. Nothing to do with what I want as a parent, but I do think that they should be allowed that contact if they wish.

But if your dd is OK with it, I guess it's not a problem right now. In principle, though, I"m with you!










I wholeheartedly agree with this post.







Here in Norway camp is not a part of most kids summer. MAYBE some kids go to scoutcamp or something, but that last maybe 5-6 days at the most, and the kids are most likely teens. Sending a 7 YO away for weeks? Even months?? I have never even heard of that here in Norway.

Our summers are spent together, too. I can`t even imagine why I would want to send my son to camp for weeks on end. They spend so much time in school during the schoolyear, so sending him away for most of summer is not even an option. And even though I`m seen as pretty odd around here, AP-mama and all that hippiestuff I do







, I would think that every single parent I know here in Norway would agree with me on this.

And I am so, sooo agreeing with Britishmum about being able to call, when they are away. I would not at all accept sending him to a place where he wasn`t allowed to call if he *wanted* to talk to me. No way.


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## karne (Jul 6, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum* 

I'm with you, even if I am a lone voice. I think it is most odd to deny kids the use of a phone. And I'm wondering how that works anyway in this day and age of cellphones.


In my experience, the way this happens is that the camp requests that children do not bring electronic equipment from home to camp. This includes electronic hand held games, pagers and cell phones. I personally think it's more of a problem that we expect our children to have access to these electronic communication devices, while presumably they are having a wonderful, nature based camp experience. Am I the only one who sees the disconnect here?


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## lolar2 (Nov 8, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *egoldber* 
Oh goodness it IS Potomac Woods! How funny!!!!

Well, it was very nice in 1984, I can tell you that much!


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## BAU3 (Dec 10, 2001)

At my ds's camp, theres no cell phone reception.

His camp DOES allow parents to call around dinner time. The just don't encourage it..


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## MayBaby2007 (Feb 22, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
Murdering all the campers is bad for business, honest.

















True.

I'd still keep my kids home though. That's just me though. There is something not right with the no phone calls (unless emergency) policy.


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## ~pi (May 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
Murdering all the campers is bad for business, honest.



















Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum* 
I think it is most odd to deny kids the use of a phone. And I'm wondering how that works anyway in this day and age of cellphones.

A lot of camps in North America are located in places with no or limited cellphone reception.

Personally, as a Canadian, one of the things that keeps me sane is getting away from the constant connectedness once in a while by going backwoods camping. Although it is diminishing, we do have lots of areas that are not accessible by road, nor are they reachable by cellphone. And you can bet that they don't have payphones, either. A lot of the camps here do multi-day trips (canoeing, hiking, etc.) into such areas. Usually the trips start at four days for the youngest campers, and go up to several weeks for young teens.

I think your example of a payphone at camp is a function of geography -- small, densely-populated areas vs. large, sparsely populated areas.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Ruth* 
I am desperate for somebody to agree with me. Nobody agreed with me in another thread so I am starting this one.
[...]
Help, I need your comments even if you disagree with me.

Ruth, if I can take it back to your OP for a moment, why are you desperate for someone to agree with you? What purpose does that serve? If lots of people agree with you, are you going to pull your daughter from the camp? Will it make you feel better?








I hope you find a solution that works for you and your daughter.


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## MusicianDad (Jun 24, 2008)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *karne* 
In my experience, the way this happens is that the camp requests that children do not bring electronic equipment from home to camp. This includes electronic hand held games, pagers and cell phones. I personally think it's more of a problem that we expect our children to have access to these electronic communication devices, while presumably they are having a wonderful, nature based camp experience. Am I the only one who sees the disconnect here?

I see the disconnect. It makes about as much sense as bringing a generator and a bunch of plug in amenities camping with you and your family (and yes there are people that do that). I mean, is it really necissary for most people to bring a hair dryer or an outdoor heater camping?

And yeah, when we go camping as a family, it means no electricity except in the form of double A batteries for the flashlight so DH doesn't step on me when he gets up to go to the bathroom (happened once







)


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## BAU3 (Dec 10, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
I see the disconnect. It makes about as much sense as bringing a generator and a bunch of plug in amenities camping with you and your family (and yes there are people that do that). I mean, is it really necissary for most people to bring a hair dryer or an outdoor heater camping?

And yeah, when we go camping as a family, it means no electricity except in the form of double A batteries for the flashlight so DH doesn't step on me when he gets up to go to the bathroom (happened once







)

I see the disconnect,too, but not everyone does.. its all in the perception and your experiences..

I lived in a campground for 3 or 4 summers. When I think of camping, i do NOT think of a campground. Anywhere with indoor plumbing and showers is not camping in my book...but for some, thats roughing it. So when ds is at camp, he spends most of his time actually away from camp, hiking, canoeing etc. There are no motorized boats, the cabins are exttremely primative and as the kids get older they actually stay in lean-tos . (when they're not on the top of a mountain somewhere). Anything less than that, for our lifestyle and how we live...well, he may as well stay at home. The cell phone policy doesn't matter cuz they don't work anyway.. but the kids are allowed to bring a gameboy or an ipod.... most don't have time to use them anyway.

I'm glad Ruth is letting her dd go to camp and i understand the worry...


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

I always feel the agree that this thread sort of turned into a pile-on, but I just wanted to add my two cents.

I went to camp for 4 years, starting when I was 10, and the only time I was ever homesick would be after my parents visited. I went for 7 weeks, and parents were allowed up on Sundays and mine would make the 9 hour (each way!) drive to see us once or twice a year. And even though I was having a great time and rarely gave them a second thought, seeing them would make me miss home, and my cat, and my friends. It would normally take a day or two to recover. I agree that contact home usually makes things worse.

Secondly, I used to work in the main office of a camp, and if kids are homesick enough, we'd let them call. To be totally honest, I think being allowed to do something that was against the rules was really what would make them happy and secure at camp! Seriously. They'd go off so smug, promising not to tell other campers they had called, and we'd never hear homesickness again from them (though their parents would be calling 3x a day for the rest of the session...).

Thirdly, I want to say that my sister was one of those 7 year old campers (actually, she turned 7 a few weeks into it camp her first year... they let her go at 6 because I was going too) and she had an absolute BLAST. Went for 10 years, and is still best friends with so many of her camp friends. When they're ready really depends on the kid: I would have been a wreck at 7! Plus, the youngest campers are soooo spoiled by all the older campers. I don't think my sister walked anywhere that first summer: she was always being carried by one of the CITs, having her hair done by an older camper, people would make her little things in Arts and Crafts because she was so cute. It was kind of a blow to her the next year when she was displaced as the youngest, cutest camper! I know this has nothing to do with anything, but I've had this conversation with more than one person, and I can see why you'd be horrified at a kid that young being sent off for 7 weeks, but I promise my sister was not some neglected, emotionally void, abandoned child: she BEGGED to go, and knew EXACTLY what she wanted, and it really worked out for her.

Finally, I want to say that camp is such a great experience. I didn't love it, but I learned so much: not just practical stuff (I was the only one at the end of the year competition who could start a campfire with only a single log that had been soaked in water for 3 days and a book of matches, in under 10 minutes! I remain confident that at some point in my life, this skill will come in handy...) but also about myself, and emotional resources. I met kids from all over the country, and there were even some international campers. Though camp wasn't as meaningful to me as it was to my sister, thanks to the wonders of Facebook I've gotten back in touch with tons of people from camp, and it's such a great shared experience.


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## yaM yaM (Nov 9, 2003)

OP, I understand where you are coming from and want you to know that I agree with you. I believe it IS unnatural.

My daughter had the opportunity last summer at age 13 to receive a generous scholarship to an overnight camp in our state. The scholarship required a minimum stay of 3 weeks at the camp in order to qualify. My daughter thought it was very strange that she would not be allowed to contact me by phone at all during her stay there and she ultimately decided that she didn't want to do it. The camp also had a rule of no cell phones allowed.

Attachment parenting of an older child, to me, means that the attachment serves to ensure that the child's needs are met. When the child is not sure of what to do about something or what their options are, knowing they can reach out and get support and information from their parent can help them to feel more confident in the world. My daughter is my firstborn and very independent, but she knows that not all adults (camp counselors, teachers, etc.) have the same values and perceptions, so she takes comfort in being able to reach out to me, her greatest advocate, when she needs to (in addition to or instead of seeking support elsewhere). It comes down to having _access_.

I love the feeling of her coming to me for what she needs, being able to help her (which isn't _always_ possible, of course) and then her rushing off to go 'do it herself'. It's a more-sophisticated version of what they're like when they're three.


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MusicianDad* 
I would expect my husband to all ready be independant. I'm not going to marry someone if they can't take care of themselves.

And as I pointed out (in the other thread I believe), sometimes a husband and wife do need to be seperated from each other with limited contact for various reasons. When DH spent six months working out of town, we didn't contact each other every single day.

Right. Both I and my husband have already gone through our "learning to be independent humans" phase of life, which is necessary to grow into a mature adult.

Both I and my husband are in/have been in jobs that require business travel. Until we had the child, neither of us felt it was necessary to call home every night while we were on the trip. My husband was in Japan for two weeks back at the end of the 1990s, and since it was so expensive to call and they were so overwhelmed with work, he called once during those two weeks.

Now with le kid, we do try to call home before his bedtime while on a business trip--but that's for the kid, not for the spouse. His needs are different from ours.


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *May May* 
OP, I understand where you are coming from and want you to know that I agree with you. I believe it IS unnatural.

My daughter had the opportunity last summer at age 13 to receive a generous scholarship to an overnight camp in our state. The scholarship required a minimum stay of 3 weeks at the camp in order to qualify. My daughter thought it was very strange that she would not be allowed to contact me by phone at all during her stay there and she ultimately decided that she didn't want to do it. The camp also had a rule of no cell phones allowed.


I totally appreciate that you are doing what is right for your family and that's great. But to me, it is actually really sad that your daughter chose to give all that up because she felt she wouldn't be able to make decisions in a controlled environment over a three week period; that other people in the world wouldn't also be able to offer their advice and perspective; and that if she were truly distressed there wouldn't be an exception made.


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

OP: After reading the whole thread now, having been both a camper and a counselor, I'm going to offer this opinion. No, you probably shouldn't send your daughter away to this camp. Not because she's not ready--I'm not in a position to judge that--but because YOU'RE not ready and after what I've seen pass here, she knows it.

The worst cases of homesickness always are kids who are not allowing themselves to enjoy, because they understand they are supposed to be miserable. Their misery comes from the conflict between their recognition that this is fun, and their feeling that finding it fun and enjoying the independence it offers is some type of betrayal of their parents.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Ruth, i am SO WITH YOU.

You know whats best for your daughter. If there's a rule about no phone calls, break it. Get a cell phone, text message.

Its stupid rule. How can you ban all contact wiht parents for , was it, 10 WHOLE DAYS?

I dont have experience with camps as my own kids are too young. But i dont like the attitude of teachers who think they know better than you as the parent. At that age, i would not have liked being away that long. Its TOO LONG. At 13, i went away for a weekend. A couple of days is one thing, but did you say, 10 days? Thats way too long.

At 17, i went away with my father for 10 days. I got home sick.(or rather, missed mum) I was 17!!

I didnt leave my screaming/separation anxious child at preschool even though the teachers advised it. I stayed the whole time.

As a parent, you have a big responsability. You have to think for yourself. You cant always trust the advice of teachers, doctors etc.

If they are afraid the children will get homesick, maybe its because they shouldnt be away so long.

Give your kid a cell phone, and tell her she can contact you when she wants.

ps didnt read other posts yet.....

pps.ok just read the posts about technology, no signal
etc...no, i think the rule is terrible. If a kid wants to talk to their parents, let them! It sounds like some sort of cult...the teachers -and -guide-counsellors-and-peer- group-knows-best-cult

ppps-about the 'just dont sent you kid to camp' advice...oh, so a child misses out on a good opportunity because of some ridiculous rule about no phone contact? Oh, and 'youre just not ready as parent' ....advice, give me a break ....









Ruth,trust your intincts


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## filiadeluna (Oct 2, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Heavenly* 
You said it yourself, it would just not to be possible to allow all of the children to do that. It would take hours every day to let each child phone home. If you aren't comfortable with that then maybe it is best to keep her home. I was 11 when I started to go to overnight camp and I did just fine. I had a blast being away from my parents! Personally, I probably won't feel comfortable letting my children go to overnight camp, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

*nod*

I went to Girl Scout camp & other camps (overnight) every Summer starting at age 8 - I also ended up being a Camp Counselor when I was a teenager. I had a BLAST, and I wasn't able to call my mom unless it was an emergency, but I could have cared less. I would say my mom was AP before there was a name for it, but I think that's part of the reason I was so independent and actually cried when I had to *leave* camp rather than being homesick when I was there.







I sent postcards to my mom, and I enjoyed getting mail from her, but it definitely would have been too much time consumed for every kid to be able to telephone their parents.

Part of it is also that at camp you are supposed to get away from technology and modern things such as phone, TV, computer, etc.







From my experience as a Counselor, I can definitely say that most camps are *very* picky about interviewing and hiring counselors (and they have to get CPR & First Aid as well as other extensive training), so your daughter should be in great hands!


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## lach (Apr 17, 2009)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *GuildJenn* 
I totally appreciate that you are doing what is right for your family and that's great. But to me, it is actually really sad that your daughter chose to give all that up because she felt she wouldn't be able to make decisions in a controlled environment over a three week period; that other people in the world wouldn't also be able to offer their advice and perspective; and that if she were truly distressed there wouldn't be an exception made.

I agree.


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## sapphire_chan (May 2, 2005)

Every camp I went to had that policy--and broke it if a kid was super-homesick and just talking with a friendly face didn't help. They also had a policy of calling instantly if there were any real problems.

I didn't go to a summer camp until I was 11, and I had no interest in calling home. But would've felt guilty for not calling if there'd been a camp policy of letting kids line up for the phone.


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## yaM yaM (Nov 9, 2003)

Well, for us, the process of gaining clarity through the contemplation of what was and wasn't right for us lead to some wonderful new opportunities that perhaps we would not have found if we'd just settled for the traditional camp dealio. My daughter ended up going on some really cool adventures for these week-long backpacking/mountain-climbing excursions into the wilderness with 2 adult leaders taking small groups of 6-10 kids. Most of the participants, including the adult leaders, were old friends of ours/hers so that felt really good. And the kids were "allowed" to call whenever there was a cell signal, which turned out to be about two or three times each week. So it was a win-win for my daughter -- she did what was right for her, felt good about it, and ended up finding another opportunity that was much more suited to her interests through doing so.


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## yaM yaM (Nov 9, 2003)




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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *May May* 
Again, it's simply about _accessibility_, not exclusivity.

I get it. And I get that it works for you guys and that's great.









But for me, that's just not my goal. In life or in parenting. Of course I want a good relationship with my son, but I don't consider a good relationship to necessarily be him consulting with me in all things. If he does, that's fine. But I wouldn't want him to turn down something he wanted to do simply because he wouldn't have that access to me for a short period of time.

I actually consider it _unnatural_ to be plugged into cell phones all the time, consulting with everyone about everything.

I have very much valued my life experiences going off and being immersed in a new group of people, and also the times I have been alone to make my own decisions. I actually guess my bias is that I believe people need to know their decisions can be good ones, even when there is no one else around to affirm them.

It's just a different point of view.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

I have not read the entire thread. So I'm just going to reply to the OP.

Do I think it's unnatural for a 7 yr old (and an 11 yr) to have no phone contact with the parents?

Yes.

I can see how it would be logically difficult (impossible if EVERYONE wanted a call), but to do it across the board isn't right (no exceptions) isn't right.

What if the child NEEDs to talk? Just to say hi once?

I went to a sleep away camp in 1977 (I was 8) and I was so excited. Elvis died while I was there. Everyone was yapping about it. I think it was a week camp. Maybe 2 (it did feel very long), I can't remember.

I cried every single day and night. Everyone else around me was fine. I felt very alone and missed my mom (my dad died when I was 4). (So the argument that having phone access make it worse is not true.) I really had a hard time with the ZERO access to parents.

One morning I woke up crying and it was the crack of dawn and the counselors left me outside of the bunk to cry to not to wake everyone up. I don't remember them ever trying to console me. Nice.

They did take me to the Director of the Camp once. He was busy attaching tape to his side arm/chair and couldn't be bothered even making eye contact w/ me during our conversation. Needless to say this interaction didn't make a dent. Wish it did. He never checked in on me again.

I did make one friend. I knew one from school and 2 girls were bullying me whenever I saw them (infrequently). But most of the time I felt very lonely. There was a lot of activity going on, but I wasn't participating once. I remember playing with a tree once (pulling on the long, long branches) and some little girl came up to me and told me I was hurting the trees.

I don't remember writing much. Or getting lots of letters.

At the end of the 2? weeks, EVERYONE was bawling at the bus lines. I was fine. It was bizarre to me that kids were crying everywhere because they were sad camp was over. But I guess these kids were coming back year after year and loved it.

Your 11 year old:

If she is excited - that's normal. If she wants to go, is a self-confident kid, makes friends easily, can handle herself, isn't needy... then I would send her. (But I *don't* have a 11-yr-old daughter begging to go and I can't say confidently how I would handle it. My kids and their relationship with us is completely different than how I grew up - in a good way.)

Everyone is different.

OP wrote: I am so dying to think that something horrible would happen and I couldn't be there for my only child.

That I don't think will happen. Most camps are well run and well organized and I just doubt anything horrible will happen. My DH was a camp counselor in the mid 1980s for a HORRIBLE camp owner (he fed the kids expired food b/c he was so cheap and one night the counselors raided the shed and sunk that food in the lake) and the parents had no clue. His stories of that summer are so funny, I want him to write a book. The kids would tell the parents, "it's so bad, really" but the parents never believed them. Anyway... DH tells me how he and the other camp counselors rallied together to protect and help the kids through it. Did anything bad happen to any child there (injury or death)? No, b/c other caring (young) adults stepped in.


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## hazelmama (Nov 2, 2004)

Yes, I do think it's unnatural to prevent a child (of any age, really) from contacting his parents for such a long time frame. My DD is still fairly young, but based on her personality and my experience with her, not to mention my own experience as a child in similar situations, I would not be comfortable with the kind of restricted (only for what the counselors consider emergencies) access the OP described. I can think of any number of situations when a child or even a teenager would wish to talk to a parent but wouldn't feel comfortable to ask a counselor for permission.

I don't think 24/7 access to me is necessary, but some level of accessibility that my DD has control of should be available. I like the pay phone station in the evenings that another PP mentions. My DD isn't the type to consult with me on every little decision even in situations where she is facing a lot of unknowns, but she does sometimes need to connect with me for a bit to ground herself in stressful situations and I've learned to trust that when she feels the need to do that, she REALLY NEEDS it.


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## alllyssa (Sep 1, 2004)

I'm so surprised to hear how many MDC mamas have experience with extended summer camps. These camps are EXPENSIVE! Can any of you shed some light on how your parents or you paid for these several week long camp experiences? Did you come from wealthy families? Sell peanuts? Gifts from grandparents?

My son went on a 2 week river rafting Outward Bound trip a few years ago and we got a partial scholarship, but still paid $1000 and had to by a plane ticket to SLC.

So curious. I would love to send my big girls off to camp, but it would break the bank


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## GuildJenn (Jan 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alllyssa* 
I'm so surprised to hear how many MDC mamas have experience with extended summer camps. These camps are EXPENSIVE! Can any of you shed some light on how your parents or you paid for these several week long camp experiences? Did you come from wealthy families? Sell peanuts? Gifts from grandparents?

My son went on a 2 week river rafting Outward Bound trip a few years ago and we got a partial scholarship, but still paid $1000 and had to by a plane ticket to SLC.

So curious. I would love to send my big girls off to camp, but it would break the bank 

In my case the first year was a gift from both sets of grandparents and my parents. For the second, third, and fourth years I worked during the year babysitting and at the library and my parents & grandparents combined matched me dollar for dollar (I had to save the same amount for university). The camp threw in a small scholarship for my CIT year as well. After that I was a counsellor and was paid. It is $$ for sure, but there was some return on costs like food, entertainment during that time, and trips.


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## churndash (Mar 25, 2009)

this is such an old thread...it's probably moot now! Wonder what the OP decided to do after all.


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## sisteeesmama (Oct 24, 2008)

I will say that I did go to sumer camp, loved it so much, too. But I did get homesick and they had the same policy, but I begged my counselor and eventually she did sneak me into the kitchen to make a call to my mom. It made me feel so much better.
But I had issues with being afraid my mom was going to die. I was so scared alot of the time that she was going to die and hearing her voice reassured me that she was going to be ok and so was I. I didn't need to call her again.


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alllyssa* 
I'm so surprised to hear how many MDC mamas have experience with extended summer camps. These camps are EXPENSIVE! Can any of you shed some light on how your parents or you paid for these several week long camp experiences? Did you come from wealthy families? Sell peanuts? Gifts from grandparents?

My son went on a 2 week river rafting Outward Bound trip a few years ago and we got a partial scholarship, but still paid $1000 and had to by a plane ticket to SLC.

So curious. I would love to send my big girls off to camp, but it would break the bank 

Not all of them are as expensive as others.

The girl scouts camps I went to where at my council's owned campgrounds, so we were bussed to them, and they tended to be inexpensive ($100-$150/week). The music camp I attended a as a pre-teen/teen was at a state university and also subsidized. I believe that the two week camp there was about $350 and my parents drove me down and picked up me.

If there is a local YMCA in your area, they may have inexpensive summer camp programs available. YMCAs are connected with Indian Guides, and many of them own local/remote camps as part of that. We belonged to one of our local Ys a few years back, and I remember glancing through their guide at their away-camps and thinking they were pretty reasonably priced for both members and non-members.


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## cschick (Aug 28, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alllyssa* 
I'm so surprised to hear how many MDC mamas have experience with extended summer camps. These camps are EXPENSIVE! Can any of you shed some light on how your parents or you paid for these several week long camp experiences? Did you come from wealthy families? Sell peanuts? Gifts from grandparents?

My son went on a 2 week river rafting Outward Bound trip a few years ago and we got a partial scholarship, but still paid $1000 and had to by a plane ticket to SLC.

So curious. I would love to send my big girls off to camp, but it would break the bank 

Here, you're in San Diego, here are the San Diego Girl Scout council camps:

http://www.girlscoutssdi.org/site/ca...ident_camp.php (main page)

http://www.girlscoutssdi.org/site/ca...ns_winacka.php

http://www.girlscoutssdi.org/site/ca...ering_oaks.php

It looks like they offer junior high and high school age residence camps that are between $300-$500.


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## syn_ack89 (Oct 1, 2007)

Many church camps are also VERY inexpensive. I also second checking out the YMCA for lower cost options.

Basically, the low cost options require more effort to find because the expensive ones have the money to advertise. But they ARE there!


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## pixiekisses (Oct 14, 2008)

I wouldn't send my kids of for summer camp in the first place, our summers are spent together. We have stuff going on for most of the year, school, daycare, my dear working, and everything else we have on our plates. And when summer comes we can finally have weeks and months with no, absolutely no, must-does, and just spend our time together enjoying doing exactly what we want all the time. Being together being the que here. (Well, there are some more school holidays where we have a week or two, but summer with about 8 weeks is the longest one, the best one. We all love it.)

But, that's not really my point at all, I got sidetracked.
If they wanted to go, luckily they don't, but if they wanted to go very bad to some sort of camp I would only let them if they could bring a cell and call us at any time they felt like it. I would never agree to a no-calls camp. No way. If they want to talk to us, we are there, no matter what. I wouldn't expect them to call, or tell them too, but I would need to know that they had the option if they wanted it or needed it. (And the camp would certainly need to promise to contact us right away if something happened.)
But camp isn't a big thing where we live now, kids here spend their summers with their families, on vacation often. But together with their families.


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## Tanibani (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alllyssa* 
I'm so surprised to hear how many MDC mamas have experience with extended summer camps. These camps are EXPENSIVE! Can any of you shed some light on how your parents or you paid for these several week long camp experiences? Did you come from wealthy families? Sell peanuts? Gifts from grandparents?

My son went on a 2 week river rafting Outward Bound trip a few years ago and we got a partial scholarship, but still paid $1000 and had to by a plane ticket to SLC.

So curious. I would love to send my big girls off to camp, but it would break the bank 

Well, for us (we were on welfare and my mom was a widow) it was FREE in 1977. I think it was chosen for it via the public school due to our income status.

Today though we can afford very pricey camps. And I have paid $1,000 for a 4 day summer day camp (outdoorsy) 3 years ago, but DS HATED it. 45 minute sessions with 2-3 kids doing the activity at one time (rock climbing, horse back riding, etc...) and the rest sitting on their butts, bored, waiting for their turn.







I went to observe. Parents have no clue.

I think he would LOVE an roaring rapids camp.... I'll need to look into that, but I'd prefer to be there.


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## Super~Single~Mama (Sep 23, 2008)

The YMCA can be, but is not always, very expensive when it comes to summer camps. They can, and will, help out with scholarships though! But, if you get a scholarship, don't go the first session - thats a very trying session for the camp staff while they are trying to get into the swing of summer.

Its probably too late this summer to go the first session anyway, but I used to work at a YMCA camp that is very expensive -and very good!


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

I agree with you 100%.


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## Thisbirdwillfly (May 10, 2009)

My sister and I went to Girl Scout camp and my son goes to camps affiliated with our religioun (UU.)

I loved having the summers with my son and I would have been very happy to go on that way but he wanted to try camp. He made his case and was very persistant about it. He went for a week his first year and fell head over heels in love with camp. Next year he hopes to work as a counselor, which I think is so cool.

We followed his lead, to my mind that's in line with AP.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *alllyssa* 
I'm so surprised to hear how many MDC mamas have experience with extended summer camps. These camps are EXPENSIVE! Can any of you shed some light on how your parents or you paid for these several week long camp experiences?

I guess it depends on your perspective. Both DH and I WOH, so there needs to be some sort of summer childcare. Nanny for the week: $480. Daycamp: $200-$500 per week (there are more expensive options, but these are "average"). Sleepaway camp we choose for part of the summer: $370 per week. So for us, actually less expensive than some other options. Certainly there are very very pricey camps out there. But there are also "reasonable" options if you are going to be spending money anyway.


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