# HELP! 4 hr. field trip with a lap belt only



## fizzymom (Nov 20, 2001)

I need help fast. I just found out that my 9yo DS1 went on a field trip at school, in an 11 passenger school van, wearing just a lap belt for a 2 hour each way ride (4 hours total). This trip was on a highway, part of which is undivided, part of the trip was up (and down) a narrow, curvy mountain road. I am positively livid and before I approach the school, need some perspective.

As I said, I am livid. Am I over-reacting? I am going to try to find some information, but I am in a big rush because he has another field trip next week and I don't want this to happen again. I don't want him to miss the field trips because it is an important part of the curriculum, and I don't want to come off as some wacko either.

Can anyone please help me quickly find some statistics about how unsafe this is?

TIA,
fizzymom


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## paquerette (Oct 16, 2004)

I'd probably start with finding out if that's legal in your state. Are those big vans considered as regular vehicles or as school buses?

I'm think that if it is indeed legal, you're not going to get anywhere with the school.

Also, figure out what alternatives there are before you approach them. What would you like them to do to remedy the situation?


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## odenata (Feb 1, 2005)

I mostly find info on the danger of 15 passenger vans, like these two links:

NHTSA's Van Safety Page

Safety Forum: 15 passenger Vans


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Who signed the field trip?

Who was driving the 12 passenger van?

What was the make and Model and year?

Really, I think this falls on you for not doing your research before hand.

Renting a bus can be very expensive. I don't always thing multiple drivers in vehicles are always safer.

http://www.cars.com/go/crp/buyingGui...erer=&year=New

*Use seat belts:* Over the past decade, 80 percent of people killed in rollover crashes in 15-seat vans were unbelted and usually were thrown from the vehicle.

But there is a difference in 12 versus 15 passenger vans. Most information I see is geared for 15 passenger vans being unsafe not 12.


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## odenata (Feb 1, 2005)

This link could be helpful (Position Paper of the National Association of State Directors of Pupil Transportation Services):

Quote:

After a vehicle is sold, only state and local governments can regulate the use of motor vehicles.
Federal law prohibits dealers from selling/leasing a motor vehicle with a capacity of more than 10 persons for the purpose of transporting students to and from school or a school-related activity unless the vehicle complies with the applicable Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards for school buses.
Especially this part:

Quote:

Full-sized passenger vans and mini-vans do not offer the same level of safety to occupants as a full-sized school bus or a school bus built on a van-type chassis. In a crash, the risk of a serious injury or fatality is significantly higher for the occupants of a van. Typically, any crash resulting in serious injuries or fatalities to school children results in lawsuits. The fact that a school used a vehicle that was not manufactured, sold, or leased in accordance with federal laws governing school transportation most likely would be a significant issue in the lawsuit. Depending upon state insurance regulations and insurance policies themselves, this fact could have an impact on the liability responsibilities of the insurance company used to insure the
operations of the school.


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## odenata (Feb 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *paquerette* 
Also, figure out what alternatives there are before you approach them. What would you like them to do to remedy the situation?

One alternative is that school buses are _much safer_ than vans. Could a smaller school bus be used?

ETA: This link has a chart showing the legality of school use of vans by state.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Also did it look like a van verses a starquest?
http://www.starcraftbussales.com/starcraft_buses.html


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## luv-my-boys (Dec 8, 2008)

oh mama Im livid for you! This has been my issue with one of my DS' preschools. Not sure where you live but in our state apparently a 12 passenger van can be considered a "school bus" literally its a differnet license plate







and therefore they can have a van full of 3-5 yo with 1 long lap belt, no carseats. Carseats for that age range in my state in private vehicles is mandated














it makes absolutely no sense.

When I questioned the school about it they basically told me that legally they are allowed to do it. If I wanted I could provide private transportation to/from events/field trips which is what I do now. I actually witnessed the van being driven (i rode behind it on one trip for directions) and it was CRAZY!! Literallly children everywhere, I do know that the teachers try but really what are 2 adults sitting in the front row going to do when the kids in the back are going everywhere.


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## fizzymom (Nov 20, 2001)

*odenata-*Thank you for the links. They will give me someplace to start looking, and if I am reading the chart correctly, they should not be using the vans to transport students.

*paquerette-*Thanks for the advice, that's why I'm here







- to collect myself before I contact the school so I don't rip someone's face off like I wanted to do this afternoon when I found out.

*Marsupialmom-*To answer your questions: I signed a field trip consent form at the beginning of the school year, field trips are part of their active curriculum. It is a 12 passenger van, they have 2 Chevy Express (I think) and I don't know what the other one is. Don't know the years. A teacher was driving the van. And yes, I get that it "falls on" me "for not doing research", but honestly, I didn't realize until tonight that the van itself was even an issue. I was just pissed about him not having a shoulder belt. Now I realize that I'm an idiot for not having enough sense to research the vehicle itself.

All in all, I am thankful that DS1 told me about it (the seat belts) because I know he doesn't like to draw attention to himself, and this could potentially get him a lot of it. At least it gives me the chance to try to do something about it.

I almost wish I could go back to last week and just be annoyed that one of the teachers gave the kids gumballs with dye in them.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I would ask the teacher(s) driving experience. What are they licensing. You do not need CDL to drive these vehicles, nice though. But if the person regularly drives one it is different than someone that drives one periodical. We have friends that have one with 6 kids. Dad has CDL and drives the 12 passanger van every day. I trust him more than I trust some parents who drive SUV's (roll over issue there also). Another set of friends 4 and counting kids (quiverful tribe) again dad&mom drive every day - no CDL. Another who is a retired trucker, no longer has a CDL but was license for anything possible drives one every other weekend. These people I would trust. I would not trust someone that drives one a few times a year.

If they don't have shoulder belts, I am going to guess these vans are older. That would cause concern.

The big issues with the vehicles is lack of driver's experience and lack of seat belt use.

I know there is a difference between 15 and 12 passenger vans. The 15 ft has 4-6 more feet and that apparently makes a difference on safety. I don't remember what it was and the person that would have the information is not currently available.

Personally, after I found out about the driving experience before I fought a battle.


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## fizzymom (Nov 20, 2001)

The field trip teachers drive the vans at least once a week. I doubt that they have anything other than a regular license because it's not required. The outside seats have shoulder belts, but the center ones do not, so 4 kids in each van are in lap belts. Until this last trip, DS1 has been in a shoulder belt because he knows I'm a freak about it. He was harnessed in a Frontier until he was too tall for it, and then still used it as a highback booster until a couple of months ago and at 9 1/2 years, is only out of it because of other safety concerns.

I am still trying to find some links for safety differences between lap and shoulder belts, but I can't remember where I have seen them. I feel like at least that needs to be taken care of immediately, then I can work on the van issue.


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

I don't have a link, but lap belts are unsafe for anyone. I would not allow it.

-Angela


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## fizzymom (Nov 20, 2001)

I just found out that there is a state code that prohibits the use of 11 or more passenger vehicles from transporting students unless they meet federal school bus safety standards, which I am pretty sure they do not.

Does anyone have a clear-headed suggestion on what I should do next. I am so angry right now that I can't even see straight.


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## MotherBear1 (Oct 26, 2010)

I'm not sure what state you live in or if your school is public or private, but my understanding is that at least some states that have codes related to 11+ passenger vans relate to pubic schools, not private ones. Since most school buses do not have seat belts, buses are not the safest thing on the road either.

I would encourage you to work with your school rather than against them. I used to be a teacher and I have a lot of respect for the work of teachers and schools. They work very hard and they certainly are not in this line of work for the money. Safety is always a top priority and, as no school has an unlimited budget, they do their best to maintain safety. If you made the decision to choose this school for DS1, there must be things that the school is doing right.

I would encourage you to see this as an opportunity to help DS1's school. There might be a way to retrofit the vans to add additional shoulder harnesses. If you helped with this effort, the school would probably appreciate it and it would benefit everyone.


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## hollytheteacher (Mar 10, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *MotherBear1* 
I'm not sure what state you live in or if your school is public or private, but my understanding is that at least some states that have codes related to 11+ passenger vans relate to pubic schools, not private ones. Since most school buses do not have seat belts, buses are not the safest thing on the road either.

I would encourage you to work with your school rather than against them. I used to be a teacher and I have a lot of respect for the work of teachers and schools. They work very hard and they certainly are not in this line of work for the money. Safety is always a top priority and, as no school has an unlimited budget, they do their best to maintain safety. If you made the decision to choose this school for DS1, there must be things that the school is doing right.

I would encourage you to see this as an opportunity to help DS1's school. There might be a way to retrofit the vans to add additional shoulder harnesses. If you helped with this effort, the school would probably appreciate it and it would benefit everyone.

Agreed!


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