# Wow. I have a HUGE problem.



## box_of_rain (Mar 16, 2006)

Let me preface this by saying I don't really even know how to put this - I'm really not trying to offend anyone. Please bear with me.

My best friend of over 12 years has recently (3-4 years ago) "found God". She was Saved, goes to a Christian church every Sunday, has taken Evangelism classes, etc. etc. She has really thrown herself into this new place in her life. She was living across the country and has recently moved back and now we are living about 30 minutes apart.

This is not how I chose to live my life. So far, she and I have managed to keep our (very different) spiritualities pretty separate. Live and let live, if you will. We have a lot in common otherwise.

We both have two children, our youngest being only 4 months apart in age. We get together frequently and the little ones play.

I was shocked and saddened the other day while at her house, I noticed a copy of _*What the Bible Says About Child Training*_ by Richard Fugate. She is definately reading it, and I won't be surprised if/when she starts implementing it.

I don't even know what to do...Should I say something to her?? What would any of you do in this sitution?

ETA: If you anre unfamiliar with this book, and it's stance on discipline/child training, you can read its reviews here.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

What I would do:

Get her a copy of Biblical Parenting by Crystal Lutton.

http://www.amazon.com/Biblical-Paren...e=UTF8&s=books

Bring up the issue ONE time. Tell her that you are concerned about that book, and ask her to read both that one and this one, and then form her own opinions. But suggest that she not buy into the Fugate book until she has read Biblical Parenting as well. Suggest that her children are too precious to take risks on, and that doing her research well will pay off. Then tell her that you won't bring it up again until if and when she is ready to talk about it.


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## Silvercrest79 (Jan 20, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
What I would do:

Get her a copy of Biblical Parenting by Crystal Lutton.

http://www.amazon.com/Biblical-Paren...e=UTF8&s=books

Bring up the issue ONE time. Tell her that you are concerned about that book, and ask her to read both that one and this one, and then form her own opinions. But suggest that she not buy into the Fugate book until she has read Biblical Parenting as well. Suggest that her children are too precious to take risks on, and that doing her research well will pay off. Then tell her that you won't bring it up again until if and when she is ready to talk about it.

Excellent idea.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I just read the reveiws of the book, and they all seem to think this book is promoting abuse/control.

Perhaps if you show her the reviews or ask her if you may borrow the book and then (truly read it) when you return it, hopefully she will ask you what you thought of it. Then you can gently give your opinion.

I went with my sister in law to ONE "Growing kids God's way" class. I dropped out after the first night. I have no idea what it is all about, but there was a lot of secrecy, and contract signing. I was uncomfortable with that.

Then, they got to the part about "Obey the first time" Kids should immediately answer with "Yes, Mother" or "Yes Father" and you can expect immediate obediance. The man teaching the class explained how one day, his two year old daughter disobeyed in Target. She was warned once. If she did not obey immediately, she would be spanked when they went home.

She did not obey. So, they left the store, he reminded her that they were going home to be spanked.

When it was time to be spanked, he used "The paddle of love". She was told to place both palms on the wall, and she could not move until she was given her spankings. One spank for every year of her age, and one more for good measure.

My sister in law was very impressed by his technique. I was sick to my stomach.

I explained that it was not what I wanted to do. That in fact I wanted to teach my daughter to make choices. (they don't think children should choose clothes or anything) I wanted to know whether my daughter wanted to go to Disney Land or Sea World that year. I wanted her to feel like she could tell her teacher "No, I wont do that". I wanted her to know that if she belts Daniel T for tearing her homework in peices, that YES, she will have a detention, but *I* will back her up, and it is O.K to stand up for yourself.

But, I did it in a way that didn't unsult her. By the end of the classes, she was on my side. And was glad I had dropped out.


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## peilover010202 (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
What I would do:

Get her a copy of Biblical Parenting by Crystal Lutton.

http://www.amazon.com/Biblical-Paren...e=UTF8&s=books

Bring up the issue ONE time. Tell her that you are concerned about that book, and ask her to read both that one and this one, and then form her own opinions. But suggest that she not buy into the Fugate book until she has read Biblical Parenting as well. Suggest that her children are too precious to take risks on, and that doing her research well will pay off. Then tell her that you won't bring it up again until if and when she is ready to talk about it.

I agree with this. I would probably start gently and explain to her that her friendship is very important and even though your spiritual beliefs may not align, that you are concerned about that book.

I would even be willing to purchase the book for her (or borrow from the library) if that meant she would read it.








s mama Those were some scary reviews...


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## Cassandra M. (Aug 3, 2003)

I would mention the next time you are over there that you read the reviews on that book and they are very controversial and that she should really read them. Then tell her of the other "gentler" Christian books you have heard of.


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## box_of_rain (Mar 16, 2006)

Thank you all so much for your replies. I will order _*Biblical Parenting*_ as soon as I can. I hope I can get through to her. She has a very dominant personality and I tend to mind my own business...but her kiddos are like niece and nephew to me. It just _hurt_ to see that book, you know?








:


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## peilover010202 (Nov 1, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *box_of_rain* 
Thank you all so much for your replies. I will order _*Biblical Parenting*_ as soon as I can. I hope I can get through to her. She has a very dominant personality and I tend to mind my own business...but her kiddos are like niece and nephew to me. It just _hurt_ to see that book, you know?








:

I know what you mean. I was just having a conversation with a neighbor (whose dd is ds1's age) and she said her dh "popped" the little girl in the mouth for back talking.







: It made me sick.

And, trust me, I think you can get through to her this way. (I have a very dominant personality and I would respond well to it.)







Don't underestimate the fact you've been friends for so long. that will be very important in this situation. I hope she responds well.


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## JustJenny (Nov 4, 2006)

: I echo what the others have said in how to approach her. Please let her know that there ARE Christians who practice gentle discipline. I think once she reads some good info from a christian source it could enlighten her to the TRUE COMPASSION God has shown to his children. Not "Training" (brainwashing IMO) or belts. It is NOT biblical to hit your children.
Two online resources are: gentlechristianmothers.com and parentinginjesusfootsteps.org. Also if she is not on these threads get her to look under the "finding your tribe forum" and look for the crunchy christian mamas thread. Good Luck and I hope that your friendship is able to continue







:


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

Quote:

She has a very dominant personality and I tend to mind my own business...but her kiddos are like niece and nephew to me. It just hurt to see that book, you know?
When someone like you takes a strong stance about something, it can really cause others to wake up and pay attention. Because it is not your usual tactic. If she values your friendship, she'll understand that this must be a critical issue.

If she responds with hostitlity, please remember that this is part of her personality, and not a problem with YOU. Give her time to absorb what you've said to her. Strong and domineering people often come around once they have calmed down.

I'm glad its obvious to you that you need to act.


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## Attached Mama (Dec 4, 2005)

Grrr.. as a Christian those kind of people make me want to puke!! They do not represent Jesus message of love!! Here are a few things she can think about which some Christians tend to forget in their attempts to control the outward. Interestinly enough, the Bible says that people look on the outward, but God looks on the heart. FWIW I have a BA in Biblical Studies. I know I wrote a lot but it will refute all that is in those sort of books if you can wade thru it. PM me if you need to.

You can basically make a big book like the Bible say anything you want it too unless you follow a few very basic rules of interpretation which most Chrisitian theologians follow - unfortunately not all authors have any background in Biblical studies. 1.) You have to take things in the context of what the rest of the Bible says. Just like if you overheard a piece of a conversation. Without the rest of it, you might draw a completely untrue conclusion. 2.) You can take as symbolic those things which other parts of the Bible interpret as symbolic. 3.) Words in English may not mean what you think they mean as the bible was originally written in Hebrew(old testament) and Greek (new testament). It is helpful to look at the definitions of words in the orignial language with bible concordances and lexicons.

Most of the spanking crowd draw all of their parenting theory off of a few verses in the book of proverbs that say things such as "beat with the rod" However the specific hebrew word for beat is also translated throughout the old testament as slaughter, - it basically means to beat to kill or to beat within an inch of ones life. I have yet to hear a pro-spanking person (and I unfort know MANY) think this is what spanking is supposed to be.

The Hebrew word translated "rod" in English is by Hebrew definition a walking stick or shepherd's staff or something strong enough for a man to lean on.

So if you take this verse/phrase "beat with the rod" literally it is a pretty gruseome picture and not one that any spanking advocate that I know would agree with. They usually say it should be just enough to inflict enough pain to get the job done and some say the "rod" should be something "thin flexible and reed like" so as not to inflict permanent physical damage. If they are trying to use the verses in proverbs (all of which use those specific hebrew words) to support spanking then they have no leg to stand on and if they insist on taking them literally they are guilty of what some Christians call "watering down the word" - in other words making it not say something as strongly as it really says it. Your friend would prob be acquainted with that phrase.

Gentle Christian parents intepret those verses symbolically which is ok to do because all over the old testament the Hebrew word that is translated rod in english is used symbolically as a symbol of various peoples or tribes authority. So in that case the verses would simply be saying to continually keep bringing down your authority to bear on your children's lives. What kind of authority? Well, remember the rod meant a shepherd's staff or walking stick - something strong enough for a man to lean on. So that means the authority should be gentle guidance such as a shepherd's staff provided, or something that provides the morals they can lean on in rough times such as a walking stick helps a person when the going gets tough. Or it should be something that they can lean on to get them thru life when they are grown - something strong enough for a man to lean on.

A very different picture from beating your children!!

A few other things to think about for her (hope this is helping!) Ask her to tell you about a time when God severely punished her. Most Chrisitans can't do that unless they think every bad thing happening to them is from God. Even if they can think of something it's usuallly a natural consequence of something they did (ie ran up the credit cards on junk and didn't have money later to pay bills etc) This is a great example to show that God is not a vengeful father and then neither should we be as parents. She may argue that in the old testament and even in one (only one!) example in the new testament that there are stories where God punished people. But pretty much every time it was after many many many warnings. So much for children have to obey the first time every time. Ask her if she obeys God that well. I never met a Chrisitan who does. ANd I know some very "famous" Christians.

Lastly, have her look at other scriptures in the bible on parenting. The ones that aren't quoted so often like "provoke not your children to wrath but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord" or how about "woe to anyone who offends one of these little ones it would be better if they had a millstone hung around their neck and were drowned" not that Jesus thought they should literally be drowned but was making a point about what he thought of offending children. Also in the old testament there is a verse where God tells the people to talk about his ways with their children when they get up, lie down, go out come in etc. This is very in keeping with the interpretaion of the verses in proverbs to mean to continually bring your authority to bear on the children's lives.

Sorry this is so long, but I hope it will be helpful in rescuing some children from a very hurtful way of parenting. I was spanked all the time growing up and had to obey the first time etc. The results were not good in my life.


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## box_of_rain (Mar 16, 2006)

Quote:

Don't underestimate the fact you've been friends for so long. that will be very important in this situation.
I think this is what will be my saving grace. Umm, pun not intended, really.









Quote:

Two online resources are: gentlechristianmothers.com and parentinginjesusfootsteps.org. Also if she is not on these threads get her to look under the "finding your tribe forum" and look for the crunchy christian mamas thread.
Thank you for these links! Just what I need! I can see her saying something along the lines of "You don't know anything about my religion! How can you tell me this book is worthless", etc. etc. I definately feel more comfortable approaching her having done some "homework" on the matter - not just relying on my mama instincts...

Quote:

Good Luck and I hope that your friendship is able to continue
Me too. There have been smaller issues right along that I could kind of overlook (like her insinuating my kiddos are hell bound because I'm not married), but I really can't let this slip through.

Quote:

When someone like you takes a strong stance about something, it can really cause others to wake up and pay attention. Because it is not your usual tactic.
Thank you for pointing that out. With every reply, my confidence is growing! Thank you all so much!

And to Attached Mama: Thank you so much for that post! If you don't mind, may I print it??


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## JustJenny (Nov 4, 2006)

Found another one on nospank.net - scroll down to christians for nonviolent behavior. I would definitly spend time on parenting in Jesus footsteps- it has pages of articles and very sound scriptural advice. Lots of stuff to print out for her. It would suprise me if she could refute anything there.








attatched mama- very articulate and well written explanation.


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## Attached Mama (Dec 4, 2005)

sure you can print it - glad you find it helpful!


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## NiteNicole (May 19, 2003)

"Hey, I noticed you were reading What the Bible Says so when I saw Biblical Parenting, I picked it up for you."

You can always play dumb and as if you assumed that the books are on a similar topic that she's interested in. That's what I would do. I think people react better when you don't have "big talks" that call their judgment into question, esp when it's about their kids.


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## pookel (May 6, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *NiteNicole* 
"Hey, I noticed you were reading What the Bible Says so when I saw Biblical Parenting, I picked it up for you."

You can always play dumb and as if you assumed that the books are on a similar topic that she's interested in. That's what I would do. I think people react better when you don't have "big talks" that call their judgment into question, esp when it's about their kids.

I think this is a good approach. You can also go with, "Some of the moms I know online who are Christians recommended Biblical Parenting. They said it's really good."


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## box_of_rain (Mar 16, 2006)

More good ideas. Thank you Pookel and NiteNicole!

I guess which tactic I use will depend on how her vibe is the day I decide to bring it up (Monday - wish me luck!!).


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## Attached Mama (Dec 4, 2005)

So.... what happened????
~ Curious


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## box_of_rain (Mar 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Attached Mama* 
So.... what happened????
~ Curious

Well, I saw her and the kiddos today. That book was right on the kitchen counter when I got there, complete with dog-eared pages.







I picked it up and skimmed through it while she got a snack ready for the little ones.

I read a couple of parts out loud to her and made a couple of comments. I mentioned an "online community"







where I knew some Christian parents who practice GD and gave her the links and some of the info. from you, Attached Mama.

We had a long talk. She cried.

I asked her to read Biblical Parenting (and told her I'd pick it up for her - I ordered it from our local bookstore yesterday) before she resorted to some of the techniques suggested in "What the Bible says....". I think she was receptive. I know she's at her wits' end right now. She has a 3 yo and a 14 mo, and a husband who's never home. She is having a really hard time with being patient (she's a bit high strung in general). I really don't think she's spanked yet, but with a book like that giving permission....only a matter of time, you know?

So I'm doing what I can for her. I'm going to start taking her kiddos a couple of hours a week to give her a chance to breathe. Once she reads Biblical Parenting, I hope she will have a discipline strategy that fits with her lifestyle/religion, and does good things for her babies.

Thank you all for the information, kind words, encouragement, etc. I really appreciate it all! You'll be seeing more of me around here (GD) in the near future, as my own little guy is 18 mo and I'm rusty with the toddler stuff!

Thanks again


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## frenchie (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
What I would do:

Get her a copy of Biblical Parenting by Crystal Lutton.

http://www.amazon.com/Biblical-Paren...e=UTF8&s=books

Bring up the issue ONE time. Tell her that you are concerned about that book, and ask her to read both that one and this one, and then form her own opinions. But suggest that she not buy into the Fugate book until she has read Biblical Parenting as well. Suggest that her children are too precious to take risks on, and that doing her research well will pay off. Then tell her that you won't bring it up again until if and when she is ready to talk about it.

This is an excellent suggestion. I used to post in a Christian AP Yahoo group that, IIRC, Crystal started, and she really helped me through some tough questions I had, and emotions I didn't know how to deal with. As a Christian, I wanted to honor God with my parenting...and I thought that meant I was supposed to break my child's will, his spirit and spank him. I KNEW in my heart that what I was being told/taught and what I read in the Bible was in total conflict. She really validated my feelings and answered many questions I had.
I have yet to read her book, but I have read excerpts and she is very thorough!!

ETA: I just read the update...way to go!! You're an awesome friend!


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## Babes in arms (Sep 24, 2005)

Sorry that she cried, but I am so glad that she received what you had to say. It's such a touchy area. Way to go!


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## 425lisamarie (Mar 4, 2005)

What a good friend


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## ipfree (Oct 4, 2006)

Great ideas. I am not offended at all








I wouldn't think of it as a HUGE problem. Think of it as an opportunity to learn what your friend is into, if you are totally not into it then it is an opportunity to learn how to tactfully let her know it's not your thing.
If it were me, I would probably start to withdraw somewhat from the person because I don't believe in that kind of discipline. I also wouldn't want my son to be around it.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Molly,

You sound like an awesome friend. Thanks for going the extra mile for those kids.









~Nay


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## box_of_rain (Mar 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *ipfree* 
I wouldn't think of it as a HUGE problem. Think of it as an opportunity to learn what your friend is into, if you are totally not into it then it is an opportunity to learn how to tactfully let her know it's not your thing.
If it were me, I would probably start to withdraw somewhat from the person because I don't believe in that kind of discipline. I also wouldn't want my son to be around it.


I agree - it felt more like a huge problem before I spoke with her about it. Her friendship is invaluable to me and it really hurt to think about what might happen there.

I am interested in her religion, but every time I ask her about an aspect of it, I feel really judged by her because she always brings up marriage (which I'm not) or baptism (which I'm not) or church (which I don't go to), etc. So I don't go there with her any more.

If she had/does decide on that form of discipline, and there was nothing I could do or say to make her see the harm in it, I would have to pull away from her, for many reasons. That thought makes me so sad, which is why I came here with my question. I wanted to approach it well right from the start, so the odds were better that she'd hear me.

I think it worked...we'll see. Thank you all again for your kind replies.


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## FLmom_3 (Jan 13, 2007)

I was looking for an article I'd found one day about the other side of "spare the rod, spoil the child". I am a Christian who believes if you are to be a Christian, you must be willing to trust in God and his word. I have heard different theories about the above term and through analyzing and Jesus' example as mentioned in another post, I feel the "Rod" referred to is not an actual "beating stick" but rather a tool (the Shepard used a rod to gently and lovingly guide his sheep) - more metaphorically than literal, I guess.

When looking for the article, I ran across this one below and it LITERALLY took my breath away! I have anxiety attacks from time to time and this actually began to bring one on! I realize there are parents who spank, as I used to be one. The first thing I thought when I saw this was:

1. HARSH - some of the wording there just sets WAY wrong with me-it's like
very distasteful joking.
2. If this is available to the public, could you IMAGINE how many people are
getting their hands on this that are dangerous and abusive to their
children!

http://atheism.about.com/b/a/140049.htm

Sorry - I'm not trying to steal your post, I was just trying to find an article that helped me determine as a Christian that there are other options biblically that you may send to your friend and when I found this, I was thrown for a loop!







:


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## peilover010202 (Nov 1, 2005)

Great job mama! Sounds like you did reach her.


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## box_of_rain (Mar 16, 2006)

Wow FLmom_3. I am absolutely horrified and speechless right now.


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## katallen (Jan 4, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mamaduck* 
What I would do:

Get her a copy of Biblical Parenting by Crystal Lutton.

http://www.amazon.com/Biblical-Paren...e=UTF8&s=books

Bring up the issue ONE time. Tell her that you are concerned about that book, and ask her to read both that one and this one, and then form her own opinions. But suggest that she not buy into the Fugate book until she has read Biblical Parenting as well. Suggest that her children are too precious to take risks on, and that doing her research well will pay off. Then tell her that you won't bring it up again until if and when she is ready to talk about it.


I think that is a great idea. There is really nothing else you can do except to cut off contact if she parents in ways that make you and your children to uncomfortable or to stop doing kid things together and just do adult things with the understanding that kids will not be brought up at all between the two of you.


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## AntoninBeGonin (Jun 24, 2005)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FLmom_3* 
http://atheism.about.com/b/a/140049.htm

Sorry - I'm not trying to steal your post, I was just trying to find an article that helped me determine as a Christian that there are other options biblically that you may send to your friend and when I found this, I was thrown for a loop!







:









I recieve Austin Cline's about.com email newsletter daily. He is not pro-spanking. He's just blatently, somewhat over-the-top, sarcastically against EVERY (and man, I mean EVERY!) single harmful practice done in the name of religion. That article was meant as anger and sarcasm, trust me. (I've been reading AC for years







)

~Nay


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## Attached Mama (Dec 4, 2005)

box of rain,

Way to go!! Sounds like you may be getting thru to her.







That's so encouraging to hear. I am glad that some of the stuff I wrote could be helpful.

Also wanted to say that I am sorry that any interest you have shown in her religion has met with judgment







That is so not what the message of Jesus is about and if you wanted to know more I am sure that moms on here could give you a more gentle picture of Christianity. I have said b4 on here that I always hesitate to call myself a Chrisitian because i am appalled at the things so many people do in the name of Christ.


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## box_of_rain (Mar 16, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Attached Mama* 
box of rain,
Also wanted to say that I am sorry that any interest you have shown in her religion has met with judgment







That is so not what the message of Jesus is about and if you wanted to know more I am sure that moms on here could give you a more gentle picture of Christianity. I have said b4 on here that I always hesitate to call myself a Chrisitian because i am appalled at the things so many people do in the name of Christ.









So true. I know that the judgement doesn't come from her religion - it comes from HER. I keep hoping that one day she'll come around. I'm not holding my breath, though. We just don't talk about it any more.









It's hard having such a longlasting and close friendship without being able to talk about what lies at our core - spirituality in it's most pure form - self, soul, whatever one wants to call it.

I got Biblical Parenting - it came in at the bookstore yesterday. I'm headed over to her house with it now.


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## frenchie (Mar 21, 2006)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *FLmom_3* 
I was looking for an article I'd found one day about the other side of "spare the rod, spoil the child". I am a Christian who believes if you are to be a Christian, you must be willing to trust in God and his word. I have heard different theories about the above term and through analyzing and Jesus' example as mentioned in another post, I feel the "Rod" referred to is not an actual "beating stick" but rather a tool (the Shepard used a rod to gently and lovingly guide his sheep) - more metaphorically than literal, I guess.

The word is "Shebet", translated, it's shepard's staff. A shepard uses his staff (hook) to guide his sheep into their stalls. What has happened with the translation, is there are many differen't kinds of "rod" like objects spoken about in the Bible, and different words to label them. When the books were translated, the scholars blanketed those words with one word..."rod". So yes, it's metaphorical...but the literal translation is shepard's staff, and not rod.


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