# GF is pro Circ



## Duh1477 (Dec 13, 2016)

Hi, I've been w my gf for and im intact, but she is pro circ and says she won't budge. I would rather have girls anyway, but I don't want to budge on this. What can I do? She has made comments including

It is a problem, it's called having an awful looking penis 
Trust me if you told me tomorrow you decided to go and get circumcised you wouldn't get a single argument from me lol

I mean it will come to it eventually. I don't think it's right to not do it, it would be an awful parenting decision on my end. You just don't do that to your kid. 

It's not inhumane. You're beyond dramatic about it. It's not child molestation, it's not a right being taken away, it's not making him not complete. It's a surgery to remove excess skin to a body part to save him a lot of ridicule. 

I can just see my entire family "oh the baby isn't circumcised? How come?" Knowing damn well my answer will not be "because I don't believe in it" lol. Then they'll allllll know shit about our sex life and it gives me anxiety to think about lol

You're lucky you don't have one of those extra ugly uncircumcised ones. Yours doesn't even look like it's not circumcised. But having to do a bj on an ugly uncircumcised one is the worst. That's why I would have never even known unless you told me

What can I do to convince her?


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## Duh1477 (Dec 13, 2016)

My other question is, do I have any legal rights or does the mother get to choose?


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## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

Are you sure you want to have children with this woman? Aside from the circ issue, she is saying some very unkind things to you. What is the test of your relationship like?


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

Why are you even in a relationship with this woman? Let's just turn the tables for a moment and imagine you are making disparaging comments about her breasts or lady bits would she just accept it and carry on being with you? I can't even imagine what this is doing to your self confidence. This woman is so lucky that you are intact. Does she love you? Have you explained that you like your whole body and that her words are hurtful? Quite frankly she either enjoys hurting you which would make her a sadist or she is very ignorant and shallow. 

See if she will watch 'An Elephant in the Hospital' but quite frankly I would leave her and find a woman who will appreciate you, you don't need this.


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## hakunangovi (Feb 15, 2002)

Your GF obviously knows NOTHING about intact (whole) male genitalia. As Jo stated above, have her watch the video "The Elephant in the Hospital". It is accessible on Youtube and at the website: www.doctorsopposedtocircumcision.org . There is also other valuable information on that website. Another one that has loads of info is: www.cirp.org . A foreskin contains 3/4 of the penile nerves. Cutting it off causes reduced sensation which eventually leads to ED and other problems, let alone that circumcised men do not enjoy true orgasms. it is not about aesthetics, it is about function. And, yes, it is also about violating personal human rights. The baby never gives permission for genital reduction surgery. He is entitled to his whole penis.

If you are not married and have a child together, you really have no rights to block this and she can do whatever she chooses to the baby. The resentment that you would feel, if that were to happen, would destroy your relationship. I would heed the advice given above and think very hard whether your GF is someone with whom you could spend the rest of your life with.


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## Duh1477 (Dec 13, 2016)

So are you saying that as a father I have no say in the matter legally? Is this very common? I've read a lot on here where the situation is reversed. Has anyone else ever dealt with the situation like this?


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## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

Duh1477 said:


> So are you saying that as a father I have no say in the matter legally? Is this very common? I've read a lot on here where the situation is reversed. Has anyone else ever dealt with the situation like this?


Ideally, you would both be required to sign the consent form for any non-essential surgery on a minor but that is not a legal requirement. It is not specifically singling out fathers though. Either parent could consent to surgery without the other parent also consenting.

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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

I think it depends on where you live. I believe in some places you may have a say so long as your name is on the birth certificate, other places you will have none. 9 times out of 10 the father having no say is a very good thing because most posts like yours are from pregnant mums trying to stop their SO's from cutting their sons, so being able to tell them that the father can't consent is normally a very good thing, but not in your case. I believe if either parent doesn't want surgery that should be enough, but that often is not how things work out. I would make your wishes known to all medical personal but it might not hurt to get some legal help.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

As men in America we grew up in a society that has taught us that our bodies are not something we have a right to, yet society will immediately flip and tell girls "you are beautiful the way you are" and their genital integrity is 100% protected by federal law. Because of this its easy to be in a situation that you are in as a guy and have a woman talk about your body, and the body of a hypothetic male child and not see it for exactly what it is: hate. She finds the male body (the biological form of male humans) something that disgusts her so much she would rather forcibly carry out cosmetic surgery on her children (maybe even you if she could) to meet her perspective of attractiveness. 

Nothing in her perspective includes even the concept that her male children deserve to have ownership over their physical being. Not only she does not see that as a right, she mocks the concept. But if for even a moment you turned this on her and said "fine, I'll get circumcised if you have your outer lips and prepuce removed, and do the same to our daughters." I can just imagine the rightful disgust in her reaction toward you. 

The sad truth here is she doesn't seem just so simply to be a person who is ill informed due to her culture, she seems to be a person totally absorbed in the toxic nature of circumcision culture- the body shaming, the dismissal of basic human rights, and the idea she has full authority to forcibly physically subjugate people around her to conform to her view of what the male body should be, no matter the cost to those paying the price, no matter how minimal the benefit is to her. For her its worth it, because in her mind this is HER RIGHT. 

Honestly this woman is some degree a toxic individual. She is like a man who believes he has the right to use women for sex if they like it or not, because society has told that man he can if he wants. Everyone is highly complex, but this is a page of her identity and you need to decide NOW if you want that be a part of your life, your family life, and the risks that your children will face to their bodies, and to their perspective on human value and self worth become.


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## Duh1477 (Dec 13, 2016)

I feel like this is the main issue, otherwise we don't have much else. Is this really sonething I should stand my ground on or allow this so I could get to make some decisions down the road. I say this bc the Drs today know how bad is so they take off as little skin as possible.


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## Ruthla (Jun 2, 2004)

It sounds to me like this is the tip of the iceberg, and could be an indication that you're really not compatible and shouldn't be having children together. As far as I'm concerned, the only legitimate reason to circumcise is for religious reasons. The supposed medical reasons don't exist, and "he'll get teased in the locker" is complete BS. That's not a reason to put a child through surgery! Apart from the direct long-term effects of circumcision, there's a risk of infection and excessive bleeding. That risk is only worth it if the benefits (religious, in my case) outweigh the physical benefits.

If she's not budging because she's Jewish or Muslim and this aspect of her religion is important to her, then I can tell you right now this will be a much, much deeper issue regarding "how to raise the children", what values to teach them, etc, if she has a strong faith that you don't share. And if she's doing this for shallower reasons (I think uncircumcised penises are ugly, or the grandparents will tease him) then she seems like somebody who's not going to question authority when it comes to your children's health. What if you disagree about vaccines, or how to treat baby's first cold, or how to treat the child if something more serious crops up? She doesn't seem open to listening to alternate points of view. And once again, this is a huge red flag for me, that you two have completely different values, and this can cause more problems in other areas later.

And since you're intact and she's pro-circ, what exactly does that say about her opinion of you?

My opinion about the aesthetics of circumcision? All penises are ugly! If I perform oral sex, it's because I'm turned on and I want to give him pleasure and the aesthetics just don't come into play during the actual act. If she's claiming that she'd withhold certain intimacies because of how your penis looks- then she's being shallow here.

It's perfectly appropriate to tell the grandparents "we didn't circumcise because we didn't think it's necessary" and NOT share intimate details that they don't need to know.


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## TheBugsMomma (Mar 24, 2015)

Another thing to think about is what happens if you do have a son and you get your way? Will she be telling your son he has an ugly penis his whole life or mentioning it to other people? Really in anyway making your son feel bad about himself? I wouldn't want someone like that raising my child.


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## Duh1477 (Dec 13, 2016)

Wow that's a lot of stuff I had a thought about. It's only way to rectify this? I really like this girl but it's a lot of stuff I had a thought about. How should I approach this? Is it a really an issue Worth breaking up over?


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

Yes. All the points raised are valid. Having children brings up a whole can of worms and stress you wouldn't believe even when you are with somebody who is on the same page as you. It also ties you to that person for life, whether you are with them or not. 
I don't know how you can be with her when she thinks that about your body. She has no idea how lucky she is.


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## Duh1477 (Dec 13, 2016)

Should I confront her? Like ask her her honest opinion on my penis? I really don't think its that bad. I've been told in the past mine is attractive as far as they go. Lol


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## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

She's already told you what she thinks of your penis and of uncircumcised penises in general. You told us in your first post. 

If you were already married then I would say that no, it's not an issue worth getting divorced over and suggest counselling. Since the relationship sounds rather more casual than that then I would say yes, I think it would be unwise to consider starting a family with this young woman. Not just because she is pro-circ but because of her reasons and the way she is handling the disagreement. You don't say how old she is but she sounds very young and immature based on what you've written here. 


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## Duh1477 (Dec 13, 2016)

She and I just turned 30 been together for about 6 months. She is quite a successful banker and I an educator.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Duh1477 said:


> Should I confront her? Like ask her her honest opinion on my penis? I really don't think its that bad. I've been told in the past mine is attractive as far as they go. Lol


Putting the issue of circumcision aside for a moment. This is a person who has said very directly she finds the natural male body, ugly- your body- ugly. She spoke about this to you, knowing your body, knowing who you are. There is a difference between opinions and empathy.

For example I had a girlfriend in high school who I was puppy love, head over heels for. She also was a little chubby, deep down I knew I would have found her more attractive if she lost some weight. But I also know she was a confident, intelligent young lady- which is part of what i found so attractive about her, and that she was still quite attractive. But I knew, even at 16 I would NEVER body shame her, i would never so bluntly say what I didn't like about her body because she was someone I cared about. No matter your girlfriends opinion on what is attractive, she should have enough empathy to understand not to speak the way she did, about your body. The fact she doesn't get that, and doesn't care- is a big red flag in terms of her ability to be empathetic. And that quality is going to be VERY important in MANY areas of your relationship in the long run.

Maybe confront her and ask her "What do you think it makes me feel like when you say those kinds of things about my body?" If her response is something defensive, if it becomes a defense on why circumcised is better, if its her just standing her ground and not being supportive of you- if her response is nothing short of an apology + an explanation of where her opinion is coming from- than that is a HUGE red flag of the type of person she is. Regardless of the circumcision issue.

But getting back to circumcision, she still holds the belief that she should be able to cosmetically alter your children to meet her beauty standards. Take yourself out of our culture for a second- thats weird. Imagine if its 10 years from now and you know a fellow Dad who is trying to convince his wife to give her 10 year old daughter breast implants because he finds big breasts more attractive- THAT WOULD BE weird. Its creepy for that Dad to want to cosmetically sculpt his child to match his ideal of attractiveness through surgery.

Why is what your girlfriend requesting any different? Why should her considerations matter more than what your hypothetical son feels about HIS body? Shouldn't he be allowed the right to decide what happens to his body? A right you and your wife have been given? Shouldn't his opinion- whatever it may be- be given greater weight than anyone else? He will live with that body his whole life, and its the only one he gets. Just like all of us. If you believe in god, or just the beauty in an infinite, random universe- our bodies are an extremely rare gift to explore, treasure, expel and even alter. But it should be ours alone to decide how. Not just because they are irreplaceably rare, but they are a key component of our very sense of self. Thats the kind of value that can only be truly understood by oneself.

The truth is, people become parents for a lot of reasons. Sometimes not even on purpose, or entirely on accident. But when we have them we must eventually come to realize the greater good that having them brings. We are given the heavy responsibility of nurturing and creating a life that will one day grow up and effect the world in their own right. Maybe even improve it, but we do that by allowing them to find that path, to allow them create themselves.

But the dark side of parenthood, is that it can also be seen as a power. The ability to control a life, to form it in your image, to make it how you wish everything to be. It can be a persons one chance to attempt to control one small part of the world. Its a path that will always lead to failure, as that child will ultimately become their own person.

I fear your girlfriend to some degree sees parenthood as the latter of those two. If she really sees her childs body as something she should have the right to control and alter to her liking, I don't see how this isn't her perspective. How she cannot accept her child how he naturally would be, cherish, love, and stand up for that- well there is nothing stopping her from that. But she doesn't want to do that.

What you do is up to you, its your life, and the life of your potential children, and the world their life experiences create for our shared future. I will give you this one piece of advice though- Spend your life nurturing the fires you want to see brightened, and not just the flames that presently provide you warmth.


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## mumto1 (Feb 17, 2016)

*I agree with everyone*

This scenario sounds too implausible to be true but if it is I'd want out of that relationship ASAP. She sounds childish, ignorant, self absorbed and yes lacking basic human empathy. People like this aren't going to suddenly and completely change overnight. I think most moms (in this current time) want their kids to be circed because of religion, or because the dad is, it is beyond bizarre that she would want to inflict that on her own child when not even the dad has been. I do have a relative who said she wanted her son circed because every boyfriend she's ever had (and perhaps family members too) had been and it seemed to her that this was the normal state of affairs. There is a perception that everybody does it so I should too. Maybe you should get her to watch some circumcisions online, it pretty g-m stomach turning and it's the reason I know why one mom who had 2 kids got the first circumcised because she thought she had to (societal pressure) but refused to do that to the second. Would she genitally mutilate a daughter? (because everyone else was).


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## kathymuggle (Jul 25, 2012)

Duh1477 said:


> Wow that's a lot of stuff I had a thought about. It's only way to rectify this? I really like this girl but it's a lot of stuff I had a thought about. How should I approach this? Is it a really an issue Worth breaking up over?


I don't know if it is worth breaking up over.

Ask her if she would be willing to forgo circumcision until such time as :

-you both could come to some (preferably research based) agreement
-the child had medical issues with the penis

If she is unwilling to budge at all, that is not great. There are lots of compromises in parenting. I expect flexibility and a willingness to look at both sides of an issue in parenting.


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## Duh1477 (Dec 13, 2016)

mumto1 said:


> This scenario sounds too implausible to be true but if it is I'd want out of that relationship ASAP. She sounds childish, ignorant, self absorbed and yes lacking basic human empathy. People like this aren't going to suddenly and completely change overnight. I think most moms (in this current time) want their kids to be circed because of religion, or because the dad is, it is beyond bizarre that she would want to inflict that on her own child when not even the dad has been. I do have a relative who said she wanted her son circed because every boyfriend she's ever had (and perhaps family members too) had been and it seemed to her that this was the normal state of affairs. There is a perception that everybody does it so I should too. Maybe you should get her to watch some circumcisions online, it pretty g-m stomach turning and it's the reason I know why one mom who had 2 kids got the first circumcised because she thought she had to (societal pressure) but refused to do that to the second. Would she genitally mutilate a daughter? (because everyone else was).


That's why I was asking if this is out of the norm, I couldn't find much on it. She is the 2nd GF in a row that has had opinions like this. I guess I'm not good at picking. I live on the east coast of the US.


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## mumto1 (Feb 17, 2016)

*Maybe it is where you live*

To me it sounds bizarre. I would find her attitude revolting but to each their own. I agree there's always compromises like local school vs french immersion, but this a pretty fundamental attitude about life: mutilation to appease "societal norms" vs respecting someones right to how their body is used for the rest of of their lives. I guess if it doesn't bother you.. but honestly she's just made statements that are directed against you. Directly against you. It's like a form of sexism, like when a guy might say, Well, women as a general rule are usually pretty stupid, but you are sort of an exception ... I don't know how you can get it out of your mind that she thinks you are "less than" and that she is "putting up" with the situation, like she's gracious enough to tolerate it.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Duh1477 said:


> That's why I was asking if this is out of the norm, I couldn't find much on it. She is the 2nd GF in a row that has had opinions like this. I guess I'm not good at picking. I live on the east coast of the US.


Most women i have dated don't care either way. (I am cut, but I have brought up the issue at random points because its important to me) I have met two women in my life that have the perspective that your current girlfriend has, but they both were not the most functional people to say the least, so I didn't put much stock in their opinion. I have known a few women who are strongly anti-circ as well. I think her opinion is certainly out of the norm, at least from the girls I have dated and I grew up in the North East too.

Look at this way, if you respect her, if you respect her body, her view of beauty and value on her own body- she should respect you in the same way. And any potential children you two should have the same respect for. This really isn't a parenting issue as much as it is a human rights issue. A gender equality issue. Do people have the right to control cosmetic alterations to their body? Should they be subject to forced surgery to meet OTHER PEOPLES standards of attractiveness? Or do you think your children should be the only ones who should have a say in the cosmetic appearance of their bodies? In its literal physical structuring when it diverts from the natural?


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## Duh1477 (Dec 13, 2016)

When I confronted her about how it made me feel she said what do you want me to do lie about it? What I made her bad about something separate she said "I can't wait till we have a son so I can circumcise him twice!" Then if you don't like it it you can break up w me. I like this girl and will continue to date her,she has a lot of traits that I like, but I just don't think I can trust her to be the mother of my children.


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## kathymuggle (Jul 25, 2012)

Duh1477 said:


> When I confronted her about how it made me feel she said what do you want me to do lie about it? What I made her bad about something separate she said "I can't wait till we have a son so I can circumcise him twice!" .


Ouch. It might be sayonora time.


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

Break up time, really. You're not teenagers. At 30 you don't normally date someone long term unless you are looking for a life partner and she isn't it. Her words confirm that she doesn't truly care for you because if she did she wouldn't want to hurt you like that.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Duh1477 said:


> When I confronted her about how it made me feel she said what do you want me to do lie about it? What I made her bad about something separate she said "I can't wait till we have a son so I can circumcise him twice!" Then if you don't like it it you can break up w me. I like this girl and will continue to date her,she has a lot of traits that I like, but I just don't think I can trust her to be the mother of my children.


If you remove the specifics, and you ask anyone in the world who knows what a healthy relationship feels like- and show them her response- they would tell you that HOW she responded to you (not the what) is a big red flag of someone who doesn't know how to manage a healthy relationship. Not matter her opinion, you don't respond to people you care about in the way she did.

She responded like that because for whatever reason she has emotional stake in the concept of forced circumcision. (For whatever reason that is) and she doesn't know how to balance that with her relationship with you. Up until now your relationship has been a bunch of actions that were mutually beneficial. But now you reach a moment where she has to choose between what makes her feel good, and doing something that reenforces her value, love, and respect in you. She picked herself.

The more complex and meaningful a relationship gets, the more often you find these kind of situations where both partners have to make choices that don't benefit them, but instead benefits the connection you share by choosing something that is a greater benefit for their partner. And if this is how she responds to that- then you will not find a relationship with this woman thats going to lead to a deeper mutually valued relationship. On top of that this little test example is all just a hypothetical discussion, yet even in the hypothetical she won't give you anything.

If you want my advice- if you are looking for a fulfilling life long relationship that deepens as you progress into it over the years, where you feel respected and loved- then what you have probably won't ever be that. Take that as you will.


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## Duh1477 (Dec 13, 2016)

I'm just having a hard time with this. I just don't know if I should make a bigger issue of this or compromise?


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## kathymuggle (Jul 25, 2012)

Duh1477 said:


> I'm just having a hard time with this. I just don't know if I should make a bigger issue of this or compromise?


I almost never tell people to break up. It is not my call. I have been married for 22 years, for what it is worth.

This line, though, bugged me:

"What I made her bad about something separate she said "I can't wait till we have a son so I can circumcise him twice!"

I mean - who does that?  Who takes something serious and precious to you and uses it against you?

I can live with (just) the pro-circ attitude. I know people who are good people who are pro-circ or at best neutral on the topic. They are not however, mean...and your GF might be. Her comment is mean spirited. Has she apologised? Have you asked her to?


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

Duh1477 said:


> I'm just having a hard time with this. I just don't know if I should make a bigger issue of this or compromise?


This is a way bigger issue than her being pro circ. A person can be pro circ but still be kind. Her replys all the way through this thread show that she is not only pro circ but mean spirited and toxic, you simply don't talk to people you care about in that way, you care if you hurt them. She doesn't care and is laughing at you. I would be running away and fast. I think this is the last I will comment on this thread, it's too depressing.


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## Blossoms80 (Aug 15, 2016)

I am having a boy and do not want to remove any piece of him but i feel like this is truly his fathers decision as a man. We are talking about this, discussing, i explain to him why i dont want to and he explains why he does. We have not made the decision but as a man who actually has the penis, knows what this is like and obviously never had any major issues with it she really needs, NEEDS, to respect your opinion on this. Whether you agree or not you should be able to discuss this, in the end i do believe a the hospital the mother has the say but you were right maybe she shouldnt be the mother of your children.
GOOD LUCK! this seems like a very hard thing for you, I hope you to are ablw to discuss this in the long run.


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

Blossoms80 said:


> I am having a boy and do not want to remove any piece of him but i feel like this is truly his fathers decision as a man. We are talking about this, discussing, i explain to him why i dont want to and he explains why he does. We have not made the decision but as a man who actually has the penis, knows what this is like and obviously never had any major issues with it she really needs, NEEDS, to respect your opinion on this. Whether you agree or not you should be able to discuss this, in the end i do believe a the hospital the mother has the say but you were right maybe she shouldnt be the mother of your children.
> GOOD LUCK! this seems like a very hard thing for you, I hope you to are ablw to discuss this in the long run.


Okay I change my mind, I am replying to this.

Hon please, look at what you are saying. Firstly if your SO is circumcised as an infant he has no more knowledge of having an intact penis then you do, none at all.

Second point, both parents should always decide on serious medical issues together. If a procedure is cosmetic and one parent doesn't want it done then it should never be done. Be that parent the mother or the father. An an operation is always a serous medical issue. Saying he should decide would be the same as him saying 'My wife wants our daughter to have breast implants, I don't, but what do I know? I guess I will leave the decision up to her" I should surly hope not!

Have you ever read the regret pages on this board? The guilt and anguish that some of these mothers have had for years will make you cry. Some have grown son's and still cry over the memory of their son's screams. You do not want that for yourself. Giving in while being opposed will also damage the relationship you have with his father. It will cause anger and resentment.

Lastly parents have no rights to cut on their child's body. Sure it's legal but is it right? This isn't your husbands body it's your son's and he may want that foreskin. What will you tell him in 20 years if he comes back to you angry and demands to know why you didn't protect him? Think about these things before you simply give in.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Blossoms80 said:


> I am having a boy and do not want to remove any piece of him but i feel like this is truly his fathers decision as a man. We are talking about this, discussing, i explain to him why i dont want to and he explains why he does. We have not made the decision but as a man who actually has the penis, knows what this is like and obviously never had any major issues with it she really needs, NEEDS, to respect your opinion on this. Whether you agree or not you should be able to discuss this, in the end i do believe a the hospital the mother has the say but you were right maybe she shouldnt be the mother of your children.
> GOOD LUCK! this seems like a very hard thing for you, I hope you to are ablw to discuss this in the long run.


I know your decision to leave it up to your husband, is a decision that entirely comes from the love, respect, and trust you have in him. Obviously he would want to do whats best for his son. But what you need to understand about circumcision, is its never the same outcome. Here is why:

1. The layout of nerves on the penis various from penis to penis. So even if all circumcisions took exactly the same thing, they wouldn't be taking the same thing, as every penis is different.

2. Talking about different- every circumcision is different! There are a dozen different ways circumcision can be preformed and about 4 different types of "cuts" that can be given. For example if you remove more inner instead of outer foreskin then he will have a lot less sexual sensation. Second if you remove more skin, he may have more or less mobility. Maybe your husband has a lot of inner skin and mobility, but the doc takes away most of your sons inner foreskin, and makes it a tight cut. Then you WONT be giving him the same kind of circumcision your husband approves of.

3. Penises come in a different shapes and sizes, and that will also make his circumcision inherently different than your husband.

4. Complications- what if the surgery removes too much skin, what if a skin bridge forms, what if they remove his frenulum?

My point is even if you tried, you would not recreate the kind of circumcision your husband has, because a infants penis is going to be so vastly different in babyhood, and by adulthood you couldn't even attempt to predict how his circumcision will be for him. There is a reason why circumcised men have such a varied opinion on the subject- because *surprise* its a highly personalized, and unique subject from man to man. And you can ask your husband or me (a cut guy who hates that he was forcibly cut) or a 1000 other cut guys and each one will give you a slightly different answer, if they all got deeply introspective about it. And your son 20 years from now if cut, would give yet another different answer still.

The point here isn't picking "whats right" the point here is realizing there is nothing you need, or should decide because this is so deeply personal and individualized- making a choice that will turn out just as you want is like trying to throw a dart at a dart board with a blind fold on. Any result you get is going to be random chance- unless you leave the choice to him- then he will get exactly what he wants.

Respect your son as much as you obviously respect your husband. Let him decide for himself.


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## kathymuggle (Jul 25, 2012)

joandsarah77 said:


> Second point, both parents should always decide on serious medical issues together. If a procedure is cosmetic and one parent doesn't want it done then it should never be done. Be that parent the mother or the father. An an operation is always a serous medical issue. Saying he should decide would be the same as him saying 'My wife wants our daughter to have breast implants, I don't, but what do I know? I guess I will leave the decision up to her" I should surly hope not!
> 
> .


As a woman, I do think I have a different say in whether a daughter should have breast implants than a father. I am female, the owner of breasts, I could conceivably know what it is like to have large breasts or small breasts, or even just how important they can be to a woman.

The thing with breast implants is we are likely talking about a teenage daughter, probably an older teenage daughter, and one who has expressed a desire for implants.

Circ'ing an infant is akin to deciding an infant daughter needs breast implants. You have no idea if the daughter will want implants or not.

So while I think your hubby can have more understanding than you on what it is like to be circ'ed....more understanding does not translate into more rights. If your son ever wants to be circ'ed (very unlikely, I think) that is when his fathers personal understanding of the topic should be weighed.


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

That was merely an example of reverse psychology, I didn't actually mean or think a man would be saying that. Perhaps you can come up with a better example? 
As a mother I would be appalled if another mother thought that was as an okay thing to do.

Just for the record, I have a 15 year old daughter and an intact 12 year old son.


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## Greg B (Mar 18, 2006)

*Well*

It sounds to me like she is manipulative and unwilling to listen to reason or reach compromise. Her way or suffer the consequences.

You need to ponder what type of a relationship you want to have. One where she has all the say and power, or one where you are a valued member of the team and you both work to find compromise and solutions that work for you both. She does not sound like she can be part of the later to me, based on what you have shared.

If you do have a child together, be aware that on this issue you will have to fight her. And you may well lose.

Best wishes


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## kathymuggle (Jul 25, 2012)

joandsarah77 said:


> That was merely an example of reverse psychology, I didn't actually mean or think a man would be saying that. Perhaps you can come up with a better example?
> As a mother I would be appalled if another mother thought that was as an okay thing to do.
> 
> Just for the record, I have a 15 year old daughter and an intact 12 year old son.


I have a 18 yr old and 14 yr old female. I have an intact 20 yr old male (no issues and no regrets)

It is pretty common in some circles for teens to have cosmetic surgery - nose jobs, for instance.

I am not ok with it, but I am not about to vilify the parents for it, either.

I assume that when cosmetic surgery is done on a teen it is done because they want it, and that in many ways they are old enough to consent.

This is very different from cosmetic surgery done on an infant - who is not old enough to consent.

As per my comment that the same gender parent might have more insight into a procedure that can only be performed on their gender, I stand by it. A male would have more insight into what it is like to have a circed penis or uncirced penis, only a female could have insight into breast jobs, or how it feels to walk around with small breasts, large breast, etc. I do not think insight trumps parental consensus ( I completely agree with you that both parents need to be 100% on board on elective surgeries) and it definitely does not trump bodily integrity, but it is something.


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

A man circumcised shortly after birth has no more knowledge of an intact penis than a woman does. She may even have more knowledge. I used that as I don't know any other comparable thing done to newborn girls. Removing breast buds because of a family history of breast cancer? There is ear piercing which I also disagree with, but that is normally reversible where as circumcision is not.


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## kathymuggle (Jul 25, 2012)

joandsarah77 said:


> A man circumcised shortly after birth has no more knowledge of an intact penis than a woman does..


True. I was simply saying I understand why some might value male insight on a male appendage. In any event, i do not think insight trumps the other concerns - bodily integrity and desire for parental consensus for elective surgeries.

K.


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## Duh1477 (Dec 13, 2016)

One good thing is she is really gets along well with my mother. Hopefully she could convince her. My mom used to assist a dr she worked for doing them and said it was awful sbd one of the worst things she's ever seen. I don't want to ask her yet, but I hope she can change her mind. For whatever reason she listens to my mother.


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## Duh1477 (Dec 13, 2016)

She has basically told me I have no choice.

This is what she has said.

I will accept a whole child. Just without a few centimeters of skin around his penis. There's no need for it and if there's a way to remove it and keep him from scrutiny then that's what I'm going to do
Our kid is getting circumcised. I'll be his mom and my choice will trump yours. No pun intended 

You can always go date someone who's willing to not circumcise your kid


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## Duh1477 (Dec 13, 2016)

I just can't believe she is so dead set on it


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Duh1477 said:


> I just can't believe she is so dead set on it


Either you are a troll, or (no offense) you don't have enough respect for yourself. I have had friends who let their partner walk all over them, control them, bend to their will, and use them as a door mat. No one who talks to a person like she talked to you is someone who respects, cares, or loves you. So thats why that conversation is either a fabrication or you are in a really unhealthy relationship that you need to get out of.

She isn't pregnant, you are currently not having a baby. So the conversation you are having with her, and continuing with us is NOT about circumcision. Its about respect for someone you are dating. If this situation is real, man, you need to get out of it now! No matter if you have a daughter, a son, or no children at all, its going to end in misery for you. She doesn't want love, because she hasn't expressed that. She just wants control.

If this is real, please find more value you in yourself and find someone who will value you.


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## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

Duh1477 said:


> You can always go date someone who's willing to not circumcise your kid


This is the most sensible thing she has said so far on the subject.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Duh1477 (Dec 13, 2016)

If you had a woman as Beautiful and compatible. You wouldn't be a joke I promise, I have to decide. If I'm going to get rid of a rich powerful banker over what's she calls a piece of skin but has been a rare family normalcy since the 1940s for my family


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## kathymuggle (Jul 25, 2012)

Duh1477 said:


> If you had a woman as Beautiful and compatible. You wouldn't be a joke I promise, I have to decide. If I'm going to get rid of a rich powerful banker over what's she calls a piece of skin but has been a rare family normalcy since the 1940s for my family


Do you two agree on other issues with regard to parenting?

medical issues in general (allopathic model versus more holistic model)
religion
discipline
schooling
finances

When you butt up against a difference - how does she act?


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## Duh1477 (Dec 13, 2016)

We agree on many other things, if I do break it off I don't feel comfortable saying this is the reason. Do I give her one more chance to reconsider? Or just tell her I can't allow her to be the mother of my child and end it?


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## kathymuggle (Jul 25, 2012)

I don't know, duh1477. I am not really comfortable advising people on romantic relationships - especially online. Only you can know if:

-You are compatible over all and this issue is an one-off
-if she is respectful overall and generally willing to research/compromise/find a plan B or c....
-if either of you consider this issue a deal breaker.

Good luck. You do not have to decide today (but do decide before you procreate - and don't take any chances in this regard)

K.


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## Duh1477 (Dec 13, 2016)

It just seems like a crazy topic to break up over, but I just can't accept it.


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## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

Duh1477 said:


> We agree on many other things, if I do break it off I don't feel comfortable saying this is the reason. Do I give her one more chance to reconsider? Or just tell her I can't allow her to be the mother of my child and end it?


If you do break up I think you would be better off telling the truth about why. A made-up reason is not fair to her and is also going to be harder to defend if she wants to fight for your relationship.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

No what's crazy is that you want to stay with a woman who says things like this. 

"It is a problem, it's called having an awful looking penis"
"Trust me if you told me tomorrow you decided to go and get circumcised you wouldn't get a single argument from me lol"
"I can't wait till we have a son so I can circumcise him twice!" Then if you don't like it it you can break up w me"
"I'll be his mom and my choice will trump yours."

What a sweet heart. *eye roll*


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## stormborn (Dec 8, 2001)

joandsarah77 said:


> No what's crazy is that you want to stay with a woman who says things like this.
> 
> "It is a problem, it's called having an awful looking penis"
> "Trust me if you told me tomorrow you decided to go and get circumcised you wouldn't get a single argument from me lol"
> ...


^All of this! Why on earth would you want to spend any of your time with a partner who thinks so little of you, your opinions and your dick, FFS?!
Do you think she would stick around if you told her to get a labiaplasty for her "awful looking pussy"? And that you would have any daughters of yours cut, too?


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Duh1477 said:


> It just seems like a crazy topic to break up over, but I just can't accept it.


From everything you said, you wouldn't be breaking up with this woman because of circumcision. You would be breaking up with her because she lacks empathy, body shames you, doesn't show respect for you, doesn't seem able to communicate in a healthy/functional manner.

Like I said before- this ISNT about circumcision. You have no kids at the moment. This is about respect, love and the ability to communicate in tough, emotionally fueled, complicated periods. This is about constructing and maintaining a healthy relationship. Everything you have shared with us, the light that has been shown on this woman coincides with your circumcision discussion, makes it seem like she might not be able to do that kind of partner.

Ultimately its your life, its the lives of your children and the rights you think they should have protected. How important those elements are to your long term happiness. And deciding if thats worth giving up for this woman who may seem like "a catch" by other metrics.

But whatever you decide, don't confuse this as a break up based on disagreements on parenting, or culture. This is far more personal than that. Its respect, love and communication.


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## Duh1477 (Dec 13, 2016)

She recently said this

"Well it's pretty much damn near impossible to give a girl a vaginal orgasm being uncircumcised 
Because the extra skin causes there to be less friction inside the vagina 
It feels the same for the male but not the female

Vaginal orgasm meaning no other touching. Strictly dick in vagina. It's almost impossible"

She also said 
You're backwards on your stats. America has 75% circumcised. Actually 77%
And 90% of white male Americans are circumcised 
She said that those stats are. "Straight from the CDC so don't tell me it's not credible.

Can anyone tell me about her otgasm claims or the stats? I don't know how to respond


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## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

This is the data up to 2010. Note that they only count in hospital circs https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/circumcision_2013/circumcision_2013.htm

For future reference, you can just Google this information 

As to her comments regarding sex, I think it is fairly common for women to have difficulty achieving orgasm solely through penetration regardless of whether their partner is circumcised or not. And, frankly, I'm not sure why that would be a primary goal anyway. A sexual encounter which consisted solely of penetration could be ok for an occasional quickie but if that was all or even most of what sex was about then I would say that the couple involved were missing out on an awful lot.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kathymuggle (Jul 25, 2012)

Duh1477 said:


> She recently said this
> 
> "Well it's pretty much damn near impossible to give a girl a vaginal orgasm being uncircumcised
> Because the extra skin causes there to be less friction inside the vagina
> ...


I think her stats are off:

"Midwestern male babies have the highest hospital circumcision rate, at over 70 percent. At 66 percent the Northeast isn't far behind. Overall, the total U.S. hospital circumcision rate fell from 64.5 percent in 1979 to 58.3 percent in 2010, a decline of about 10 percent."

Moreover:

"Survey data indicate that we may see these declines continue. A YouGov survey conducted earlier this year found that young people were more skeptical about the practice than their elders: only 33 percent of 18-to-29 year-olds said that male children should be routinely circumcised, compared to 43 percent of 30-to-44 year-olds, 52 percent of 45-to-64 year-olds, and nearly two thirds of seniors."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...comes-to-circumcision/?utm_term=.f599e3be99f1

As per the rest, I am sorry....it is just odd. Most women need clitoral stimulation to orgasm, and I doubt whether a man is circ'ed or not is overly relevant. Frankly, and I will risk a few flames for this, her comment seemed....masculine. I just cannot imagine a women bothering to say this. Even if it is true, I am not sure _her _hyper focus on an orgasm from penetration (something that might not exist - and even if it does, chasing it seems counter productive) is any grounds for circ'ing a baby. Here is an article on the G spot and vaginal orgasm.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/09/g-spot-vaginal-orgasm-myth_n_5947930.html


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

I will concur that paragraph seems rather masculine to me as well. Perhaps that is his take on it reworded.


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## Duh1477 (Dec 13, 2016)

I spoke with her about my feelings about this, it's really my only issue with her. It's funny because she is really big on women's rights so when I tell her it's ironic that she wants to allow infant boys to be mutilated she freaks out and says it's not the same. I told her that I will either get over it or dump her. She looked really shocked. I wouldn't be able to live with myself, my family has never practiced this type of mutilation because my grandmother wouldn't allow it and she had all her boys from the 1940-60s. We are white middle class so I guess that makes it more rare. I know that I can't allow this the happen to my child so either she caves or im gone.


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

Good to hear. If she will watch an elephant in the hospital try and get her to.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Duh1477 said:


> I spoke with her about my feelings about this, it's really my only issue with her. It's funny because she is really big on women's rights so when I tell her it's ironic that she wants to allow infant boys to be mutilated she freaks out and says it's not the same. I told her that I will either get over it or dump her. She looked really shocked. I wouldn't be able to live with myself, my family has never practiced this type of mutilation because my grandmother wouldn't allow it and she had all her boys from the 1940-60s. We are white middle class so I guess that makes it more rare. I know that I can't allow this the happen to my child so either she caves or im gone.


Its interesting this post reminded me of an early 1960's couple with a wife who tells her husband about "woman rights" every day not really thinking much of it. Then one day she suddenly stops catering to her husband like he is king of the house, and he suddenly gets it, but is still too shocked she meant it all this time.

People are so caught in traditional gender values that they almost don't believe it when someone presents them with something different. Just like many 1960's husbands, I think your girlfriend is going through quite the culture shock, so much so she doesn't even fully have a conceptual understanding of the simplicity of "men get human rights too".

All I can hope is that what you are going through is representational of many couples these days. Where one is awakening a change of perspective in the other on this issue and many others of our time.

Good for you, for figuring out whats important to you. Thats really something to be proud of.


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

She also needs to know the functions of the foreskin, to understand it's not a small flap of skin and that by taking it away from a male without his consent would be like a woman having her breast removed without her consent. Make her understand that this is an important male body part not something made to toss away.


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## Greg B (Mar 18, 2006)

Do a search for "A Historical and Medical Critique of Circumcision - Dr. Christopher Guest" and you will find very well presented information about the subject that may help her understand the issue better.

Regards


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## Scott Seelig (Jan 30, 2017)

First off if it's pretty mean for someone intimate with you to say those unkind things about your uncut penis. I agree with the above links. Circumcision may be normal in the US, but you are actually very lucky to be intact. The more you research, the more you will learn, and the more you will want to protect any potential son.


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## Duh1477 (Dec 13, 2016)

I've told her either I'll get over it or I'll dump her. I know that I won't get over it and allow my child to be the first ever to be mutilated in my family. So I'll put the pressure on her, either she will conform or she's done. I just can't understand why she would think its ok when I'm not mutilated. Has anyone ever heard of a situation like this?


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

Sadly yes. American's woman with this focus seem to have a mind set that says it looks ugly and that smegma is disgusting. My guess is they don't even realize that they themselves make smegma, and usually lots more of it than any intact man produces, only its where they can't see it. How it looks should have nothing to do with anything. A cut penis is hardly pretty and even if it was, that is extreamly shallow. No more shallow than a man who would say his wife should go get a labiaplasty. Ask her how she would feel if you wanted her and any daughters to go have one of those. https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&...2RRkZMX9SVVgmO_fw&sig2=v4OxzlAUqT-UPCVEN4zkQQ


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## Duh1477 (Dec 13, 2016)

Another issue is that she can't even tell that I'm intact, the reason is that since I was 5 and saw my cousins who were circed. I always kept my skin retracted, after awhile it felt normal. After that my whole life I have kept it back, it just feels more comfortable that way. I don't want to tell her that part because I feel like that plays into her argument in some way. Like I have lived my life with a pseudo circ.


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

Well that's a shame and you would by now be missing some of the benefits of having a foreskin, namely its meant to cover the glans to keep it moist. Leaving it exposed will make it dry out and gradually become abrasive like a circ one is. You were very lucky not to have experienced pariphimoses, a medical emergency when the skin gets trapped behind the head which swells and then requires an emergency circumcision. It's a shame that you felt shamed for having a normal body.

Also yes that does play into her argument, you felt ashamed for being intact.


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## Greg B (Mar 18, 2006)

Duh1477 said:


> I've told her either I'll get over it or I'll dump her. I know that I won't get over it and allow my child to be the first ever to be mutilated in my family. So I'll put the pressure on her, either she will conform or she's done. I just can't understand why she would think its ok when I'm not mutilated. Has anyone ever heard of a situation like this?


Yes, many people accept society's norms without question. It can be very difficult to get through that mind set. The best advice I have read is to be patient and do it in baby steps, basically raising questions and giving them time to ponder.

Try having a discussion about whether or not women should shave their underarms or not. You will probably find it difficult to really explore the issue on both sides.

Don't forget that our society, and the medical community in particular, do a great job of calling into question anything that discusses the value of foreskin, saying it is not supported by science. And they do an equally good job of fearmongering and making their case for circumcision sound well supported by science. A good site with lots of pieces of information is circumstitionsDOTcom


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## Duh1477 (Dec 13, 2016)

joandsarah77 said:


> Well that's a shame and you would by now be missing some of the benefits of having a foreskin, namely its meant to cover the glans to keep it moist. Leaving it exposed will make it dry out and gradually become abrasive like a circ one is. You were very lucky not to have experienced pariphimoses, a medical emergency when the skin gets trapped behind the head which swells and then requires an emergency circumcision. It's a shame that you felt shamed for having a normal body.
> 
> Also yes that does play into her argument, you felt ashamed for being intact.


This makes me wonder what have I been arguing about inthe first place. In a way I've lived my whole life circed. I don't want to give in, but it makes me wonder if I am even doing the right thing.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Yes, you're doing the right thing in fighting to keep your possible future children intact. Your child can make his own decision about how to wear his foreskin, just like you were luckily able to do.


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## kathymuggle (Jul 25, 2012)

Duh1477 said:


> This makes me wonder what have I been arguing about inthe first place. In a way I've lived my whole life circed. I don't want to give in, but it makes me wonder if I am even doing the right thing.


Choosing to keep yourself "tucked in" is pretty different than someone performing surgery on you as an infant.

Your foreskin is still there

You were given choice.


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

Yes you are because this is your son's foreskin and he should get to decide what to do with it. My personal belief is it should be illegal to perform unneeded cosmetic surgery on a minor. Whose body is it? I don't own my children's bodies, they do.

Edit since I forgot that un on the front of unneeded!


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## Greg B (Mar 18, 2006)

*You are Doing the RIGHT Thing*



Duh1477 said:


> This makes me wonder what have I been arguing about inthe first place. In a way I've lived my whole life circed. I don't want to give in, but it makes me wonder if I am even doing the right thing.


I think you are doing the right thing. To me, this is a human rights issue. Your son will have to rely on you to protect his human rights. We are talking about healthy and important body parts being amputated for no medially valid reason. the arguments used typically are easy to refute, and are more in the realm of fearmongering than anything else.

And, importantly, parents do not have control over their child's body, that is a misunderstanding of the law. Parents' and doctors have only limited capacity to make decisions for their children. the law states they are only to act in the best interest of their child. If something is of uncertain benefit and can wait, the law actually says they should wait.

There is absolutely no need to circumcise as an infant, without a rare and significant issue being present such as gangrene. so that it will be "cleaner" or fit society's preferences, is not a valid medical reason. Waiting until he his old enough to make this decision for himself, as a legally recognized adult, is the best thing that can happen, for several reasons:

He may turn out not to want to have the most important part of his body for sexual pleasure and function amputated

The doctor can do a better job, because your son will have stopped growing and changing, and the penis does a lot of changing in puberty

There is less risk of excessive pain, trauma, and side effects, including less chance of death if this is done on adults.

The only stated reason to do it as an infant is they won't remember, won't know the difference, and the doctor can do it faster because no stiches are needed, usually. None of with are valid for this situation.

Be strong, fight hard. This is a clear decision, and you are on the correct side of this argument. Your son will thank you.

Best wishes


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## Duh1477 (Dec 13, 2016)

Maybe I will just ride it out, she wants to get married in a year or 2 and when that doesn't happens it will give her the opportunity to dump me. Is anyone familiar with keeping it retracted all the time like I do? I'm not really sure how it started, but it got to the point where it just feels weird to let it roll forward.


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

I already told you, you will be drying it out. The glans is meant to be an internal organ like the inside of your mouth is. I don't know how you have never developed paraphimosis, I guess you have probably stretched it or something.


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## BellaCassels (Feb 7, 2017)

God gave humans foreskins for a reason! It's that simple.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Duh1477 said:


> Maybe I will just ride it out, she wants to get married in a year or 2 and when that doesn't happens it will give her the opportunity to dump me. Is anyone familiar with keeping it retracted all the time like I do? I'm not really sure how it started, but it got to the point where it just feels weird to let it roll forward.


Just so you know (coming from a cut guy) there is a BIG difference between tucking your foreskin and not having one. Ever had erections that were so painful because you had no spare skin slack? I knew a guy who got cuts on his dick because he was cut so tight. You have the natural gliding motion from your foreskin which in of itself provides a lot of pleasure. (I can also say this is true as I have started to restore, have more skin now and can tell the difference). You also have all your nerve endings intact as well.

Dont confuse "tucking your foreskin" to being the same as a doctor forcibly splitting yours apart, removing parts of it and tightly stapling it back together. From one guy to another guy, thats not something you want to put your son through. And its shitty that your girlfriend feels she should have the right to cause such an action when she will never have to deal with the outcome. Your son will.

This is a serious issue because its your sons body, its his life. There is rarely one big thing that signifies the importance of everything. But the value in an individuals life, and individual respect towards each other is made up of a thousand smaller actions. Sexual expression, sensation, and satisfaction are part of that. But so are free will, confidence, control, and value of self.

You can give all those potentials to him by not doing this surgery, or you can possibly take some of that away by doing it. If you are worried about him feeling confident about his body, be a good Dad and teach him those values. Just like you would need to teach a daughter to value herself against all the shitty social stigmas young girls must face.

Or you could ignore all that potential good you could bring to your child's life and be more concerned with the fact that your girlfriend thinks foreskins are "gross."


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

Yes OP please listen to the other circumcised men on here like perspectivehttp://www.mothering.com/forum/members/94780-perspective.html, they have direct experience with what being cut is really like.

The other thing I have never got, even if circumcision really did protect a man from all kind of nasty things is why would you do it to a newborn? His eventual penis size the doctor has to guess, he can't have adequate pain relief, he will be in a lot of pain during a very important bonding time, and he will have a bleeding wound in a filthy enviroment with very real surgery risks. Every year babies die as a direct result of being circumcised. Why would anyone risk their child's very life for a cosmetic procedure?


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## Duh1477 (Dec 13, 2016)

Thank You to the last two posters, those were the posts I've been looking for the entire time. I will probably show them to her. I can't wait to hear what she says since she considers herself a "social issues" person.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

Duh1477 said:


> Thank You to the last two posters, those were the posts I've been looking for the entire time. I will probably show them to her. I can't wait to hear what she says since she considers herself a "social issues" person.


Be kind and careful with her. Don't make her feel bad about knowing all this stuff. Let her know its ok she didn't know the complexity with this issue. As a woman with intact genitals this is a whole other universe than anything her life experience has ever presented to her. Some people often shy away from the truth behind things because they don't want to be perceived as stupid. In reality the only thing a person can do to make themselves stupid is ignoring new perspectives they are presented with. Everything else is just learning.


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## kathymuggle (Jul 25, 2012)

perspective said:


> Be kind and careful with her.


I agree. If you want to be with this person and possibly have children with this person, then you need to avoid framing this issue as a fight. People can get backed into corners and feel defence when they are arguing with a spouse. You don't want her refusing to concede or even look at your viewpoint out of stubbornness.

You could see if she is willing to address the issue if you have a son either:

a) 6 months after the issue - to give you both time to really look at things together. It is easy to pass over a newborn for automatic surgery - it might be much harder for her to do so with a 6 month old she has bonded with, and whom has given her no issues with his foreskin. Parenting can change people.

b) she is willing to only consider circumcision in the event of it being medically necessary.

Both are reasonable and may allow her to gracefully move away from a very pro-circ position.

Good luck.


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## kathymuggle (Jul 25, 2012)

I thought I would add this:

96% of adult intact males do not undergo a circumcision for any reasons.

The chances of any potential son wanting to be circ'ed as an adult so badly that they go through with it or having a medically necessary circ. are very low.

http://www.circinfo.org/statistics.html


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

You are kinder towards her than I would be. I don't just see her as just pro circ, the way she has spoken to him is demeaning and disrespectful. I would call that emotional abuse. I'm interested to know if the poster was female and the person being talked about was her boyfriend, would people be so lenient?


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## kathymuggle (Jul 25, 2012)

joandsarah77 said:


> You are kinder towards her than I would be. I don't just see her as just pro circ, the way she has spoken to him is demeaning and disrespectful. I would call that emotional abuse. I'm interested to know if the poster was female and the person being talked about was her boyfriend, would people be so lenient?


I agree with you that she has been disrespectful and maybe even emotionally abusive. The thing is...he seems determined to stay with her and even waffling on the circ. issue. If he is determined to stay with her, he will get further on this point (no circ) if he does not have her go on the defensive. No one likes to lose a fight. The ways out of this I see while keeping the relationship intact are:

1. concede on something else you care less about, so you can "call" this issue.

2. compromise - which likely means waiting and crossing your fingers that she grows as a parent and as a person. This one is a gamble, though, although I suspect it is much harder to agree to an elective circ. of a 2 year old than of a newborn.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I wouldn't count on it being much harder to agree to circ a 2 year old than a newborn. My neighbor circed her 5-6 year old, it's been so long I can't remember the exact age. The only reason it wasn't done at birth was because it wasn't free. Some people will do it regardless of age. Now that doesn't mean she can't change her mind. But personally I'd want that change to happen before a pregnancy occurs. Especially because as the mother, no one will question her decision to circ her kid in the hospital or drs office and there is little to nothing a father can do to stop it if she goes behind his back.


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

If she doesn't understand the functions and development of the foreskin she is also likely to retract and cause injury that will lead up to a needed circumcision then says "I told you so". I have also heard of older children being circ'd. Blows my mind that even a pro circ'er would think that's okay.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

joandsarah77 said:


> Blows my mind that even a pro circ'er would think that's okay.


Really? Doesnt surprise me. From the moment I knew what circumcision was when I was 12ish i knew what was done to me felt "wrong". Then when I understood what the act was, I KNEW it was definitely wrong. People who will willingly allow cosmetic surgery on a baby, why would a child be ANY different?

It makes sense why female circumcision is illegal in the US, people want the power trip of being in control of another life. People would do it if they could, just like they do with boys. Not because the child has a medical emergency, they know it doesn't. Some parents circumcise because THEY WANT IT TO HAPPEN, and everything else doesn't matter to them. The whole thing is too obvious morally for anyone with a TRUE understanding of human rights to ever do it.


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## kathymuggle (Jul 25, 2012)

perspective said:


> Really? Doesnt surprise me. From the moment I knew what circumcision was when I was 12ish i knew what was done to me felt "wrong". Then when I understood what the price was, I KNEW it was definitely wrong. People who will willingly allow cosmetic surgery on a baby, why would a child be ANY different?
> 
> .


Because you have bonded with the baby for months to years and your fierce protectiveness has grown.

Because you have seen an intact penis for month or year - and it no longer looks so weird. Moreover, you have learned that there is nothing inherently unhygienic about them.

When i was pregnant with my first child I was non-circ (still am!) but I intended to breastfeed for 6 months, expected to have all my children in the hospital, and did not think twice about vaccines. I had no intentions to co-sleep. Fast forward 20 years, and 2 of my 3 children are unvaxxed, I nursed an average of 3 years per child, co-slept for an average of 2 years per child, had 2 children under the care of a midwife and one at home. People change.

I get that pinning "non-circ" on hopes that people change is a huge risk. The thing is, I do not sense he is leaving her over this. I do think the best thing for him to say is "look, I am willing to compromise on many thing (insert list to show you mean it) but circ is not one of them. I love you and want to be with you, but my first duty is to protect any children we have. If this is a deal breaker for you, we can't be together" but I just do not see that happening.

I do think the better plan than hoping she changes is to find out something else she really wants that you do not care so much about and give her that in return for her giving you this.


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## perspective (Nov 3, 2007)

kathymuggle said:


> Because you have bonded with the baby for months to years and your fierce protectiveness has grown.
> 
> Because you have seen an intact penis for month or year - and it no longer looks so weird. Moreover, you have learned that there is nothing inherently unhygienic about them.
> 
> When i was pregnant with my first child I was non-circ (still am!) but I intended to breastfeed for 6 months, expected to have all my children in the hospital, and did not think twice about vaccines. I had no intentions to co-sleep. Fast forward 20 years, and 2 of my 3 children are unvaxxed, I nursed an average of 3 years per child, co-slept for an average of 2 years per child, had 2 children under the care of a midwife and one at home. People change.


Yeah but there is a big difference here. Vaccinating your child or not is a medical debate, co-sleeping is parental choice on what best suits their life style.

Cosmetic infant male circumcision is nothing more than an act of cultural subjugation. You are taking a healthy child and choosing to cut off a part of their body. Its people playing around with the fundamental life, and rights of human beings. Thats a WHOLE other level discussion. That kind of stuff has no subtly to it. You recognize whats going on or you consciously or unconsciously choose to ignore it to make your life easier or to do what YOU want to do. (Not you, you, general you.)


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## kathymuggle (Jul 25, 2012)

perspective said:


> Yeah but there is a big difference here. Vaccinating your child or not is a medical debate, co-sleeping is parental choice on what best suits their life style.
> 
> Cosmetic infant male circumcision is nothing more than an act of cultural subjugation. You are taking a healthy child and choosing to cut off a part of their body. Its people playing around with the fundamental life, and rights of human beings. Thats a WHOLE other level discussion. That kind of stuff has no subtly to it. You recognize whats going on or you consciously or unconsciously choose to ignore it to make your life easier or to do what YOU want to do. (Not you, you, general you.)


This forum is full of stories (or it used to be when MDC was busier!) of people who circ'ed their first, but changed their minds for subsequent children. People can change.

I don't think pinning your desire for being non-circ on hoping someone changes is a good plan as I stated above. It is too risky - what if they don't? That being said, the OP has waffled enough on this thread that I do not think he has any desire to leave her over this. Given that, do you have any concrete advise on how to keep any prospective male children intact?


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

perspective said:


> Really? Doesnt surprise me. From the moment I knew what circumcision was when I was 12ish i knew what was done to me felt "wrong". Then when I understood what the act was, I KNEW it was definitely wrong. People who will willingly allow cosmetic surgery on a baby, why would a child be ANY different?
> 
> It makes sense why female circumcision is illegal in the US, people want the power trip of being in control of another life. People would do it if they could, just like they do with boys. Not because the child has a medical emergency, they know it doesn't. Some parents circumcise because THEY WANT IT TO HAPPEN, and everything else doesn't matter to them. The whole thing is too obvious morally for anyone with a TRUE understanding of human rights to ever do it.


The majority of pro circ'ers that I have interacted with appear to have blinkers on when it comes to newborns. Most of them believe they don't remember it (they do) and that they are in no or not much pain and basically sleep through it. They believe this so they can keep their mind set that says 'it's okay to do it to newborns". Most of them disagree with doing it to older children because they are aware. It's only a small percentage that would do it to children.


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## Duh1477 (Dec 13, 2016)

I just don't know how I can trust a women to be a mother if they would allow this to happen to their child. There is too much information available for women to say "I didn't know" there is just no excuse in my book. As a mother your job is to protect your child not allow them to be mutilated a day or 2 after they are born. I just have so much less respect for women that allow this.


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## kathymuggle (Jul 25, 2012)

Duh1477 said:


> I just don't know how I can trust a women to be a mother if they would allow this to happen to their child. There is too much information available for women to say "I didn't know" there is just no excuse in my book. As a mother your job is to protect your child not allow them to be mutilated a day or 2 after they are born. I just have so much less respect for women that allow this.


Then have a genuine conversation, and if she is still adamantly pro-circ, leave her. Otherwise you are just wasting time. You should not have children with a woman you cannot trust or respect.


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## Duh1477 (Dec 13, 2016)

So the other night, she said because she has the kid she gets to decide. I think I am at the point where it shows she doesn't have enough respect for me. I have decided that I won't marry her and couldn't trust her judgement being a mother. I don't want to end it because of this. I just have no intentions of ever having children with her. Should I end it or just let it take a natural course. I still have fun with her but I just know I couldn't live with myself if I allowed her to mutilate my child.


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## kathymuggle (Jul 25, 2012)

Do you want kids?

If not, have fun while it lasts. If you know she definitely wants kids, then do her the honour of telling her you have no intention of having kids

If you do want kids, just not with her - then you need to consider your timeline. When do you ideally want to have your first child? If it is within the next 3 years or so, you need to break up with her, and spend time trying to find a partner you are more compatible with. If you want kids far in the future or are undecided, then you need to be straight with her. "I do want kids but not for a long time, and I think we may be too different to ever have kids together. Can we enjoy this while it lasts?" might be too hard a pill to swallow for her, and she might break up with you, but at least you will be honest about your feelings and she will know where she stands.

Good luck. I do not envy you.


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

Take it's natural course could be an unplanned for pregnancy, break up with her. In a way you are leading her on if you only see her as 'someone to have fun with' unless she is also agreeable to that. The fact that you are talking kids sounds like she thinks this is serious. Marriage should be for love not because someone is 'suitable'. You can't build a lifetime on that, which is what a marriage should be, the rest of your life.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Duh1477 said:


> So the other night, she said because she has the kid she gets to decide. I think I am at the point where it shows she doesn't have enough respect for me. I have decided that I won't marry her and couldn't trust her judgement being a mother. I don't want to end it because of this. I just have no intentions of ever having children with her. Should I end it or just let it take a natural course. I still have fun with her but I just know I couldn't live with myself if I allowed her to mutilate my child.


If you are having sex with her there is always the possibility she could become pregnant. If you know you don't trust her to be the mother of your child, then don't have sex with her.


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## Greg B (Mar 18, 2006)

Duh1477 said:


> So the other night, she said because she has the kid she gets to decide. I think I am at the point where it shows she doesn't have enough respect for me. I have decided that I won't marry her and couldn't trust her judgement being a mother. I don't want to end it because of this. I just have no intentions of ever having children with her. Should I end it or just let it take a natural course. I still have fun with her but I just know I couldn't live with myself if I allowed her to mutilate my child.


OK, take this apart and understand what is happening here. She is not willing to discuss this, she is saying my way or the highway. It is not her kid. Kids are not possessions. You both contributed to the child, and both have responsibility. And neither she nor you have the right to amputate healthy important tissue for no good medical reason. Would you amputate the ear because you decided it would look cool? Would you amputate the testicles to save him from testicular cancer?

She is creating this power struggle, rather than having a dialogue to understand your feelings and come to some mutual agreement. What will happen with the next difference of opinion? Is this a pattern? Think about how you want your relationship to run for decision making in the future, because this appears, from the words you have shared with us, like it will not go well.

I also disagree with your idea of waiting. Letting her decide to break up later, while you ride along and have fun otherwise. To me, if I am understanding what you are saying, that is disingenuous. That is disrespectful to her. And, there is some risk that birth control won't work and you will have to figure out plan B.

If it were me, I would tell her straight up that trying to discuss this issue and come to some agreement on it has shown you that the relationship is not what you thought it was. You don't feel like she respects you and you do not trust her now. You now have serious reservations about continuing, and certainly do not see much future unless you and she can come to a better strategy for dealing with disagreements.

That is not to say there is no hope, but it will take work to restore trust and sort out a better way to navigate disagreements. She may not want to do that, you may not want to do that, but in my mind, you should let her know now, so she can either work with you to correct this, or you and she can go your separate ways. Anything else is unfair. Hiding this way you feel so you can still have sex and fun is not fair. You both may decide that is what you want to do, but that should be a mutual agreement, not a unilateral hidden decision on your part.

You are in tough territory, and I realize it is hard to do the above. Here are two tools that may help. The first is a book on communication under these very stressful situations. It is well worth reading, I highly recommend it: Crucial Conversations. Google it and you will find it easily.

The second is a Ted Talk on vulnerability. Often, we are very uncomfortable saying things to someone because we are afraid of what the others will think and how they will react. Google Ted Talk Vulnerability and you will find Brené Brown's Ted Talk on The Power of Vulnerability. Well worth watching. Well worth watching with your GF.

Best Wishes


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## Duh1477 (Dec 13, 2016)

So I Showed her the website circumcision decision maker she called it "fake news". Then I showed her the elephant in the hospital. She said
"I'm not missing anything. I watched a god damn 45 minute video you sent me, how am I missing something? I told you I understand how you could think the way you do, I just do not think that way. It's an appealing video to someone who wasn't sure whether or not they want to circumcise their kid"

I don't know what else I have left?
I told her if she would watch it happen to our child I would agree. But she doesn't want to do that. She said " I have to go through pain and carry the child for nine months I don't need to do that.


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## katelove (Apr 28, 2009)

I don't think you have anything left. She has been very clear about her position. My advice is do not have children with this woman. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

I hope you aren't still sleeping with her.


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## Greg B (Mar 18, 2006)

Duh1477 said:


> So I Showed her the website circumcision decision maker she called it "fake news". Then I showed her the elephant in the hospital. She said
> "I'm not missing anything. I watched a god damn 45 minute video you sent me, how am I missing something? I told you I understand how you could think the way you do, I just do not think that way. It's an appealing video to someone who wasn't sure whether or not they want to circumcise their kid"
> 
> I don't know what else I have left?
> I told her if she would watch it happen to our child I would agree. But she doesn't want to do that. She said " I have to go through pain and carry the child for nine months I don't need to do that.


Her responses indicate she doesn't respect your view point. Maybe she doesn't really respect you. At any rate, her mind is made up and she has told you she won't change her view on this subject. She has no empathy for your point of view. I would not try have a relationship with her, because there WILL be other situations with differences of opinion and she has made it clear that it will be her way or the highway.

Calling something "fake news" sounds like her shorthand for I won't discuss this further. Unless she points to specifics and points you to alternative facts and findings that you can both discuss, of course.

I have to comment on your "bargain". It is poorly conceived way to try and convince her. Your assumption that she would not be able to watch is flawed, and you are bargaining with someone else's human rights, your future son's human rights. Children are not bargaining chips. You and she do not "own" your children.

I will point you back to my previous post. But I would much more strongly feel that it is time to leave her, as difficult and traumatic as that will be, than try and repair her flawed way of dealing with decisions.

I ma sorry you are in this situation. people are complex, and it is not easy to figure out how compatible someone may be with you. But it is better to split before things get even more intertwined and you get even more emotionally invested in keeping the relationship going at all costs.

Best wishes


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

ITA with everything Greg B posted. She has no empathy for your point of view or for her future sons. 

I'd never ever bargain with anyone regarding watching their own child get circed. That has backfired before and your sons genital integrity isn't up for negotiation ever.


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## Duh1477 (Dec 13, 2016)

I may have had a break through! The other night she said 

"you know I probably wouldn't force a circumcision on our kid right? I don't think it's right but you feel way stronger about it than I do. I'd hope if I felt that strongly for something, you'd try to compromise on my point of view to make me happy. It actually makes you not want a boy if hes circumcise, i wouldn't force it on you. That would kind of be cruel 
It wasn't sudden, I kind of knew I'd always not do it because you felt so strongly about it. Just wasn't going to tell you until wayyyyy down the line in hopes you'd change your mind at some point 
No that is not what changed my mind lol. I'd do it in a heartbeat if it wouldn't bother you so much. The procedure is gruesome but in my eyes necessary "

It makes me feel good she acknowledged my feelings!


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## Greg B (Mar 18, 2006)

*Yes*

She has definitely acknowledged your feelings. That is a good thing.

But she has not changed her mind, and given what she said and how she said it prior to this, I would have to wonder what caused her to do this and why. I would have to consider that the she is saying what she is so that she does not lose you. That she sees you won't yield, so she must, at least verbally for now.

In other words, for me, this does not solve the problem, but is a small step in the right direction. I will still want to see a number of things, such as a willingness to look at the evidence you have presented without dismissing it as "fake news", a willingness to indicate your viewpoint has merit, a sense that she is being thoughtful about it, a sense that she is willing to struggle and re-examine her beliefs.

As the saying goes, talk is cheap, actions are what matter. I will also note that she did not apologize, instead she simply backed off.

Best wishes that you and she have turned a corner.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Call me a skeptic. I mean really after all this she says she "probably" wouldn't force it. And that she held onto the supposed fact that she wouldn't do it if it was that important to you, because she was hoping you'd change your mind. 

JMO but the turning point for her seems like she realizes this could be a deal breaker and she doesn't want to lose you, but that doesn't mean when the time comes that she won't sign the consent form to have it done. And in the hospital, her opinion will be the only one that matters to the staff. Your consent won't be required. She sure has a lot of qualifiers in those statements.

The last thing you posted was her saying she feels it's necessary.


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

Why is it 'necessary'? We can refute every point she makes, so bring them on. I've been doing this for 20 years, pretty sure I can outlast her lol.


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## Duh1477 (Dec 13, 2016)

I really think she doesn't like the way they look the most. She has also said that the foreskin carries diseases such as hpv.


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## Greg B (Mar 18, 2006)

*Well*

Well, you can't really argue that she should like the way they look. Personal preference. But even more importantly, she cannot argue that healthy living tissue important for sexual feeling and function should be amputated for no medical reason, just because she likes the look better. Just like was said previously, no one would argue they, as a parent, should be able to put breast implants in an infant girl, because the dad just happens to like big breasts. So that is an easy one to refute.

The argument regarding HPV has been debunked as well. Especially given that a simple vaccination is all that is needed. n check out what doctors have to say:

www<dot>doctorsopposingcircumcision<dot>org/for-professionals/alleged-medical-benefits/cervical-cancer/

Regards


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Duh1477 said:


> I really think she doesn't like the way they look the most. She has also said that the foreskin carries diseases such as hpv.


So why is she having sex with you if the foreskin carries diseases. You're intact. The fact that you may choose to retract doesn't change the fact that you have a foreskin. She doesn't seem to be worried that your foreskin is capable of carrying diseases ( in her "logic").

The whole looks prettier thing is creepy, it's your baby, not your sexual partner.


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

My guess is she adding the HPV onto the end to cover up that her real reason is looks. Adding a scary disease somehow makes it sound much more justified. Circumcision is the operation in search of a reason. However since the penis she wants to alter is her child's that becomes somewhat creepy since she wont be having sex with him. Which again comes back around to the fact that she is really shallow as was shown on the first page and she really doesn't like your body and wishes you would get cut.


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

Duh1477 said:


> When I confronted her about how it made me feel she said what do you want me to do lie about it? What I made her bad about something separate she said "I can't wait till we have a son so I can circumcise him twice!" Then if you don't like it it you can break up w me. I like this girl and will continue to date her,she has a lot of traits that I like, but I just don't think I can trust her to be the mother of my children.


I was rereading the thread. Um wow. Did you forget this post you made previously?


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## joandsarah77 (Jul 5, 2005)

Then later on he says he's just 'having fun' with her, but it didn't sound like she knew that. The whole relationship sounds very immature and not one to bring a child into.


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## Duh1477 (Dec 13, 2016)

I think that the videos and websites made a difference. She said she always knew she wouldn't, I think bc she new it would be a deal breaker. She does enjoy arguing over things and I think she knows I'm right and just doesn't want to totally admit it.
She told me I'll be in charge of cleaning it, and I said that's east you don't have to do anything different.


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## Greg B (Mar 18, 2006)

Duh1477 said:


> I think that the videos and websites made a difference. She said she always knew she wouldn't, I think bc she new it would be a deal breaker. She does enjoy arguing over things and I think she knows I'm right and just doesn't want to totally admit it.
> She told me I'll be in charge of cleaning it, and I said that's east you don't have to do anything different.


Correct. Easier than a circumcised penis, actually, by a lot. Here is a pamphlet all about it:

www.doctorsopposingcircumcision<dot>org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/parents-care-of-the-intact-penis.pdf

Regards


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## Duh1477 (Dec 13, 2016)

She basically said that she doesn't agree and with my thinking but is willing to concede this decision to me, she said If he needs it later I will have to pay for it. Since I know that is almost impossible that was easy to agree to. But I also think that she knows it's wrong and I would never have a child with her if it was any other way.


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## Greg B (Mar 18, 2006)

Duh1477 said:


> She basically said that she doesn't agree and with my thinking but is willing to concede this decision to me, she said If he needs it later I will have to pay for it. Since I know that is almost impossible that was easy to agree to. But I also think that she knows it's wrong and I would never have a child with her if it was any other way.


Sorry, but when someone says they don't agree but are willing to concede, they do NOT know it is wrong. They are instead saying you have not convinced them, but they will yield to you on this issue. And, that may be true for now. Later? Who can say. When push comes to shove, ie you and she have an infant son, she may decide she is no longer willing to yield. You won't know until the time comes.

And, saying "you will have to pay for it" sounds silly, since you both will presumably be parents. That is continuing the power struggle in a nonsensical way. It borders on abusive in my book, at least it is childish. Warning flag for me.

I think all you have done is scare her that she will lose you. I would still point you to me previous post, is this the type of relationship you want to have? that is what you need to decide, because this will only be one of many differences of opinion you and she will have. Play back the way this issue has played out in your mind, but think about it going the same way over a house you and she are house hunting for, or the next car you buy together, or if finances get tough and you have to make some hard choices, or differences of opinion on how to discipline your children...

Since we are only seeing the words you choose to give us, I could be missing important nuances etc. But I would caution you to think this through carefully.

Best wishes


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