# Do ALL kids really "like boundaries"?



## LiLStar (Jul 7, 2006)

This is something I've heard, of course, for years. Kids appreciate boundaries, they make them feel safe. Could there be exceptions in certain highly independent personalities? My 5yo seems frustrated, angry, and possibly on some level embarrassed by boundaries. (like they're infantilizing or something) I think he hates giving in to parents having control. Or more so, even if he is fine with the boundary, he prefers to go out of his way to make it look like he's not submitting to it. (I know, hard to describe) kinda like his cooperation is an incidental coincidence. He is challenging in other ways like being really aggressive with siblings, flipping out when he doesn't get his way, mood swings.. But I'm seeing this stand out as a separate thing. When he's not fighting with siblings, when things are otherwise going smoothly, when he's not hungry or tired or fishing for attention. He maintains a need for being "in charge" do ALL kids, without exception, like boundaries? (I'm not questioning the need for them!) 

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## stormborn (Dec 8, 2001)

LiLStar said:


> Or more so, even if he is fine with the boundary, he prefers to go out of his way to make it look like he's not submitting to it. (I know, hard to describe) kinda like his cooperation is an incidental coincidence.


Oh, yes, this sounds SO much like my 6 yo! She's not as subtle about it though; she states it straight out. "Mom, can we pretend you didn't say that? I'll probably do it but I haaate it when you tell me what to do so you go away and I'll make it my own idea and tell myself to do it." This may or may not actually happen.  If she has a 'need for boundaries', it's buried VERY deep indeed! She most definately doesn't like them. At all.


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## muddie (Nov 10, 2014)

I think this is one of those things that some people (even some self-appointed parenting gurus) say without bothering with looking for evidence one way or the other for their pronouncements. It's probably true that lack of limits can be stressful and that kids tend to be happier with some limits. But we don't always like the medicine that is good for us.

I think I have noticed that in some group situations kid seem to prefer rules and structure, probably because bad things often happen in a group of kids with no rules or structure.

A subset of parent-kid relationships involve a high level of defiance on the kid's part. This is somewhat associated with harsh parental discipline. But, in many cases, the cause is unknown. The effectiveness of PMT has been studied more and has more evidence in it's favor than any other method for reducing defiance, but it is not effective in at least 15% of cases. The CPS method presented in the book _The Explosive Child_ also has evidence in it's favor, including some that indicates that it is as good as PMT.

CPS take the position that defiance is caused by the kid lacking skills and/or the kid having a developmental delay. PMT doesn't really try to identify a cause, it's just based on observations that certain parenting strategies reduce defiance in most cases without taking a position on why certain kids are defiant in the absence of these strategies.


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## LiLStar (Jul 7, 2006)

There's the popular opinion that kids, all kids, need a FIRM limit and need to know that they must not cross it. Classic examples being "don't touch" and they hover their finger while watching for parental reaction, then slowly touching, briefly, with one finger, trying to figure out, does mom/dad really mean it? With popular opinion stating that you need to consistently enforce that limit and not tolerate the testing, and eventually they will relax, happily trusting that the limit is strong. 

That probably is best for most kids. All? Is a more fluid, stretchy limit more practical for some? My kid won't test. He ignores. Trying to enforce a limit creates a scenario where he's figuratively giving me the middle finger and doing the exact opposite. To form an analogy, if I said "don't touch" he won't test what happens if he lightly lays a finger. He'll pick it up, run around, juggle it, and Chuck it out the window if I try to get it back. If I said nothing, he might notice it, look, touch gently, and then ignore. For a real life example, we were at the beach. He wandered a little further than I preferred. I called to him. He looked. I told him he was too far, come a little closer. Nothing. I walk toward him while calling his name. Blatant ignoring. I come, and he walks a little closer, and says he's close enough. I show him a log that I want to use as the boundary. Then I have to physically drag him to accepted area. Foot over the log. Trying to push the log. It was just absent minded wandering that led him that far, definitely nothing more interesting to explore further away. The only problem with the boundary is that I chose it. I definitely know that with better planning that could have gone better, like by drawing and agreeing on the boundary when we first arrived. But it just seems like most "normal" 5yo would have accepted the boundary without complaint. 

I've been doing a lot of thought, discussion with Dh, discussion with naturopath, blood tests even, trying to figure out the best way to tame this kid. I see several different problems that need different solutions. There's anxiety causing some problems. There's probably some reaction to fluctuations in blood sugar causing some mood swings, so making sure he eats good food regularly, with protein and not much sugar is another strategy. And I think needing things like giving attention to positive actions and ignoring negative behavior will help. But then I see times when everything is going otherwise well. He ate a good meal recently, is happy, and absolutely any scenario comes along that limits his autonomy/freedom in any way. Like heaven forbid I insist he takes his supplements, that don't taste bad, and I genuinely believe he doesn't mind. He just doesn't like being told it's time. 

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## lauren (Nov 20, 2001)

I think it is just a personality style. Some people, kids included, have a seemingly inborn resistance to authority. We joke that our firstborn was 'born resistant' because it took three days from 1st contraction to birth and he had his hand on his head and a knot in his cord---already kicking and screaming! When I look at personality style, his father and he are very very similar. So I think some kids are just a little more challenging to guide, but my opinion is that this just makes limit setting a little more challenging, not that it shouldn't happen at all.


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## Snydley (Feb 22, 2012)

I have a strong-willed, confident, extroverted, independent child (she is now 7). I suppose I am lucky in that I was very similar as a child so I can understand what it is like to be her, and I also came from a home with 'firm limits' and vividly remember how horrible that was for me.

When my DD was 4, DH told her to put on a certain pair of shoes. She refused, he picked up her foot and put a shoe on, she immediately took it off, held it up to his face, and then dropped it to the floor. 

We have few "firm" limits in my house. She has a say in almost everything. For example, she always gets to pick her own clothes (unless they look inappropriate which rarely happens). She once put on shorts in the middle of winter. I knew getting pants on her would be a huge fight, so I put a pair of pants in my purse and she asked for them once we were in the car.

I don't 'punish' bad behavior, or reward good behavior. I expect good behavior because I think she's a great person. This parenting technique I found in the book Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn and never looked back. I'm 100% a believer in it. It's not always easy to be as patient as you need to be to make this work, but it pays off big time in the long run.

Also, when kids don't feel they have control over their lives, they will act out. I suggest giving him as much of a voice in his life as you possibly can. How often does he have completely free time, to do what he chooses? Thinking of the example you gave at the beach, I agree that it would have been best to first discuss with him how far he would like to go, etc. It's totally natural for him to want to explore on his own. Do you think you could have let him travel a bit farther? Maybe as far as you could see him, even if it was quite a distance from you?



> It was just absent minded wandering that led him that far, definitely nothing more interesting to explore further away. The only problem with the boundary is that I chose it. I definitely know that with better planning that could have gone better, like by drawing and agreeing on the boundary when we first arrived. But it just seems like most "normal" 5yo would have accepted the boundary without complaint.


 He sounds 100% normal to me. I would consider how overprotective you may be (even though a high level of overprotection is the norm these days).



> I think I have noticed that in some group situations kid seem to prefer rules and structure, probably because bad things often happen in a group of kids with no rules or structure.


This is because kids today are so smothered by their parents they don't even know how to function in a group. Kids need to play without adult intervention! How else can they learn to negotiate, to get along, to display empathy?

Another book that is relevant is Play to Learn by Peter Gray. He emphasizes that kids need freedom, what he calls the "hunter-gatherer" education to develop into mentally healthy, functional adults. They are now largely denied this in the US, and mental issues/social problems are on the rise.

I recently started letting my DD help start up the wood stove. I taught her how to use the lighters, stack the wood, etc. I also let her use all our large, sharp knives, and she can know walk a block a friend's house by herself. She seems to be very proud of these activities. I find that giving her these freedoms makes it much easier to take freedom/choice away when I have to (stopping tv for bedtime, etc).

Maybe give your son a freedom he hasn't asked for but you know he would appreciate (like, being able to do something on his own that you normally supervise/help with)? Say, 'I think you're old enough/ready to start doing this all by yourself, what you do think'..something like that?

Sorry I wrote a book! Good luck!


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

I disagree with boundaries for the sake of boundaries because you (collective "you") think kids need them. Just like I disagree with making sure kids learn "no" so they can learn no (though I think it's useful to allow them to practice, like trying to see if you can leave down something fragile because they will respect the "no" ). I could go on in this vein, but it would distract from the point.

So, you set boundaries because some boundaries are needed, and if that makes them feel comfortable then great, if it doesn't, well, some boundaries are necessary *for us* and it doesn't matter anyway.

I think the advice was meant to make parents feel comfortable about setting boundaries, and it's true for many kids. But then people hear that backwards and think that boundaries are needed to make a child feel comforted. That's way, it's wrong. Just plain wrong.


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## sewchris2642 (Feb 28, 2009)

LiLStar said:


> This is something I've heard, of course, for years. Kids appreciate boundaries, they make them feel safe. Could there be exceptions in certain highly independent personalities? My 5yo seems frustrated, angry, and possibly on some level embarrassed by boundaries. (like they're infantilizing or something) I think he hates giving in to parents having control. Or more so, even if he is fine with the boundary, he prefers to go out of his way to make it look like he's not submitting to it. (I know, hard to describe) kinda like his cooperation is an incidental coincidence. He is challenging in other ways like being really aggressive with siblings, flipping out when he doesn't get his way, mood swings.. But I'm seeing this stand out as a separate thing. When he's not fighting with siblings, when things are otherwise going smoothly, when he's not hungry or tired or fishing for attention. He maintains a need for being "in charge" do ALL kids, without exception, like boundaries? (I'm not questioning the need for them!)
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2


Everyone, not just kids, want order in their lives. Boundaries provide order out of chaos. But boundaries should be fluid and change with maturity of each child. Some children will just accept, some need to know why, some need to negotiate/add their 2 cents, some need to test always. Parents need to discover how their particular child responds. Perhaps the rule needs to be worded differently. Maybe it's time to relax it, change it or even eliminate it. If a child won't obey the rule of "don't touch", put the item away (not just beyond reach but out of sight) or, in the case of being in public, don't put the child into temptation. Stay out of that store, suggest somewhere else to meet friends/family, etc. Say "don't go any farther than you can see me" instead of "don't go too far".


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## blackannis (Mar 31, 2011)

Don't mistake the "all kids like/need boundaries" for an absolute "all kids like/will obey all boundaries"--that's oversimplifying what's being said. All kids *do* need boundaries--they are not rational and don't, in general, understand danger very well except when they directly experience it. I'd prefer that my children not have to directly experience drowning or getting hit by a car or seriously hurting a younger sibling in order to understand why they cannot do it. Therefore there are things where boundaries are strictly enforced at our house. They are, however, things involving specific known dangers (a road where cars drive quite fast, a hot wood stove, younger siblings who cannot be wrestled with until they're older and sturdier) that we cannot let the kids learn about on their own. This also includes things that aren't dangerous, but rather that are basic skills for getting along with other people--rules of basic politeness and functioning as a part of the family, not the focus of the family. Rudeness/hitting/general nastiness has consequences (a time-out or removal of something "fun" like tablet games), as does refusing to eat the food served (no food until the next meal). My 5-year-old is the only one having most boundaries enforced at this point (there aren't a huge number of things that one can really teach a toddler and nothing to be done with an infant other than basic love and care), but we do have boundaries for him. We have picked our battles, though, so it's not like we're trying to keep him from acting like a 5-year-old. We're just trying to help him understand what it means to act like a reasonable human being instead of a psychotically self-centered one (because, really, all 5-year-olds are psychotically self-centered and they _do_ have to be taught how to act like decent human beings instead of constantly insisting on their own way).

OP, I doubt your son is any more independent than mine, who can throw epic temper tantrums because he wasn't satisfied with how his cardboard robot helmet turned out. We do need to find useful ways to encourage independence, though, and not let them enforce their will on everyone else. That goes particularly for younger siblings--it's not fair to allow their older brother to boss them around, either to the younger sibling being bossed and bullied or to the older one who's trying to take on an adult role he's not ready for. Boundaries are very important, even if the child reflexively pushes back on them. You just need to pick your battles, and not enforce nonsensical boundaries merely for the sake of having the child obey.


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## littleblackdress (Sep 28, 2014)

I think "boundaries" mean different things to different people. I would say "knowing what is expected of you" is a boundary that most PEOPLE appreciate. I do not find kids any different.


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## macy (Feb 22, 2010)

I think for kids like you are describing (especially if behaviors are extreme/oppositional defiant disorder) you have to focus mainly on rewarding the good behavior to increase good behavior, rather than taking things away for bad behavior to decrease bad behavior.


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## kaatya (Jan 2, 2014)

I like what Sweetsilver & Snydley said!


We all need boundaries - they are what keep us from becoming a danger either to ourselves or to others.


However, I think it is really important to keep boundaries REAL - boundaries for boundaries sake are counter-productive and pointless.


Boundaries in our family are established to cover basic safety (eg: car seats are non-negotiable), household functionality and respect for the rights of others as well as our own.
I try not to say "NO" too often, but when I say it, I try and really mean it. This means I need to make sure I say 'no' about stuff that really matters, not all kinds of trivial details that really don't require rules or 'boundaries'.


Some kids definitely are more prone to push limits than others.


Here's what I've also noticed:
I get more push-back when I am habitually busy and distracted - and find myself saying stuff like "just do it" while running in the opposite direction on my own personal mission (whatever that may be!)
When my kids and I are in sync, when we all feel noticed, acknowledged, respected and connected with each other, then we tend to be more co-operative with each other and less resistant/defiant.


Kids with very controlling parents can be very defiant (too many boundaries)
Kids with very liberal parents can also be very defiant (still trying to find the boundaries)
Kids with parents who tend to say "No....No.....NO.....NO!.....oh, OK!!" can be very defiant (they have learned that persistence pays off)


I've probably been guilty of doing all these things at times, but I try really hard not to.
I've tried to make a habit of being respectful of my kids and it sometimes pays unexpected dividends - especially when they are pushing boundaries. Sometimes, they will quite suddenly back off - like they know they've gone too far and are actually being plain rude.


We work from a basis of Expectation rather than Confrontation, so try to set out our expectations at times when there is no conflict in this area - sometimes, that means letting something go in the short term, but coming back to it later (when only our family is present) and saying "Look, we need to talk about how this should be done/what to do next time"


How we set our boundaries is just as important as deciding what they should be and maintaining them.


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## LiLStar (Jul 7, 2006)

I think I'm pretty reasonably balanced about expectations, not giving in, but not being unreasonable. I'll say no and mean it, but I think its also pretty well balanced with plenty of yesses and freedoms! I'm by no means a helicopter mom. His dad can be worn down though, and will say things like, "if i let you (have whatever) do you promise to...." drives me nuts. It seems like there's no rule/expectation, whatever that he will willingly follow, except by, like, coincidence (you know, like, *at this very moment* he is not hurting a sibling, because he doesn't currently feel like it..ya know?!) no matter how consistently i enforce. if I see him being unkind to the cats, i will ALWAYS intervene. and i have to pry his arms off the poor thing, every time, and every single time he'll get up and run after it while i try and hold him back. You'd think that eventually a verbal "let the cat go" would work by itself, since its going to *always* be followed up by me going over and physically freeing the cat? he's kinda scary in some ways. his strength, intelligence, and creativity are increasing but his impulse control is NOT. He was mad at his sister for picking up a tablet that was near him, but he was not currently playing with, so he picked up the biggest screw driver we have (real, not toy, and we dont know what it was doing in that room to begin with) and wacked her in the face with it. I fear he could seriously injure one of his siblings if he doesn't calm down. 

Chaos follows him everywhere. We try to make his room neat, with hardly any "stuff" in it to make a mess with. He empties his dresser, and his brothers, pulls all the drawers out, dumps his bed upside down, knocks ALL furniture over. In a tantrum, he'll be in destructive mode. But sometimes its just PLAY to him! Like giant, heavy, building blocks. He doesn't like to sleep in his room anymore. Prefers the couch. We took his clothes out and keep them in our room so he won't throw them around the floor. I have no idea what to do with his room. He plays in there..in a "what-the-heck-was-that-noise-nevermind-im-scared-to-look" kinda way. i think he needs some kind of outlet for that creative energy. i have no idea what. we have no proper yard, so its hard to not be able to just send him out to climb trees!


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## blessedwithboys (Dec 8, 2004)

OP, your first few descriptions of your son sounded like my ds2, who has a psychiatric diagnosis. But then your last post sounds nothing at all like him. Ds has mood swings, grandiosity, and mild narcissism. But he never physically harms people or animals. That goes beyond mood disorders, into personality disorder territory. Maybe an eval wouldn't be such a bad idea?


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## LiLStar (Jul 7, 2006)

The "physically harming" when it comes to the cats, is just him really wanting to hold them and cuddle with them but creating a cycle where the cats are scared, so they are trying to get away, so he holds them tighter, or puts a blanket over them, and just makes them stay until he's caught and made to let them go. So the cats continue to be scared of him. I try to tell him that if he approaches slowly, pets them gently with one hand, and waits for them to come to him, they'll come to him all the time! I can barely sit on the couch without a cat purring on my lap. I have to go to great lengths to keep one in particular away from my 3yo at night or he'll never fall asleep! Friendly affection seeking cats... If only he'd be nice. 

With hurting siblings, it's typically in anger. Fighting over stupid stuff siblings fight over. It seems consistent with his overall lack of impulse control. But when he uses potentially dangerous weapons, that's scary! There are times when he's literally come home off the bus and runs in the house and hits his brother. Unprovoked. He'll Unprovoked yell things like "I hate___! He's stupid!" he's never hurt the baby (7 months) but he will one minute deny his existence, refuse to eat something made by someone holding him, and the next minute be eager to wear him. 

My husband doesn't think anything particularly unusual is up. He thinks it's just because there's so much clutter (and it's true, my living room floor is currently covered in toys. It's also regularly picked up. We have a crawler so it has to get picked up enough to sweep/vacuum daily) he literally thinks if I was a type A super organized type who kept a perfectly clean house, and planned cutesy pinterest style activities and took them places everything would be fine. My words not his.. Lol. But from how he talks, that's what it sounds like he thinks would be the magic behavior cure! 

He's been evaluated  though he scored highest in opposition defiance, anxiety was a close 2nd. Since he doesn't have behavior problems at school and is in fact a model citizen, he wasn't eligible for an ODD diagnosis. We figured anxiety was the root of the behavior. At the same time, he didn't fit into any particular anxiety "type" and is more an "anxiety-not-otherwise-specified". And they started the evaluation just sitting in an office across a desk, trying to talk! I was like, yeeeah.. Not going to work. He doesn't want to talk to you, and I can't sit next to this kid and give you detailed descriptions of how challenging he is! Fortunately I brought a typed out paper full of examples I could give her. We spent the rest of the time playing Legos and talking about what was "safe" to talk about with him listening. The next week she had an intern play toys with him while she and I talked in private so I could be more open. So basically what they saw was this sweet boy and mom who played really well together and had a great connection to each other, but just had a little anxiety sometimes, no biggie! They suggested setting up a one time meeting where they could help me set up a plan for helping him fall asleep on his own (one of the few anxiety related issues that's easy to pin down specifically) it seemed sort of patronizing actually. Also suggested this parent group /class about helping anxious kids, which didn't really seem to address anything all that relevant to him. Better for older kids, and even teens. And it seemed to hyper focus on helping kids overcome their specific anxieties one by one which requires, well, knowing what they are. I was hoping for more "big picture" help. Stupid eval was a dead end. They didn't see any major problems, school doesn't see any, his dad doesn't, and it leaves me feeling pretty gaslighted

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## muddie (Nov 10, 2014)

I'd try the Kazdin Method:



> The best way to eliminate an unwanted behavior is to build a strong alternative behavior in its place, what's called the positive opposite of the unwanted behavior. The Kazdin Method® provides step-by-step instruction in how to do this under almost any conditions.


http://alankazdin.com/the-kazdin-me...with-no-pills-no-therapy-no-contest-of-wills/

Did they really rule out ODD because it was not happening at school? I don't think that's part of the diagnostic guidelines. If anything, that is a symptom of ODD:



> Manifestations of the disorder are almost invariably present in the home setting, but may not be evident at school or in the community.


http://psychcentral.com/disorders/oppositional-defiant-disorder-symptoms/

Perhaps they ruled it out because the indicators were not strong enough.


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## muddie (Nov 10, 2014)

What kids really like is when you draw them away from crossing the boundaries using positive emotions like love, fascination, gratitude, admiration, celebration, thanks.


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## muddie (Nov 10, 2014)

> It seems like there's no rule/expectation, whatever that he will willingly follow, except by, like, coincidence (you know, like, *at this very moment* he is not hurting a sibling, because he doesn't currently feel like it..ya know?!)


When he does this then you should give him attention and talk about what he is doing in positive terms without any criticism. It might be a coincidence now, but if you give up on the cynical attitude and start reacting to this good behavior in an effective manner, if you start "catching him doing good" consistently, then it will cease to be a coincidence, it will become something that you know how to cause though your own actions. You can turn coincidental behavior like this into a habit with a little properly placed positive attention.



> no matter how consistently i enforce. if I see him being unkind to the cats, i will ALWAYS intervene. and i have to pry his arms off the poor thing, every time, and every single time he'll get up and run after it while i try and hold him back. You'd think that eventually a verbal "let the cat go" would work by itself.


It is working, it's encouraging the unwanted behavior. You just don't have any grasp of the cause and effect in this situation, what you think should happen in response to your behavior is exactly the opposite of what actually happens. You get more of what you pay attention to.


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## LiLStar (Jul 7, 2006)

Yes, I know, I've read part of transforming the difficult child (nurtured heart approach) which i hear is really similar to kazdin. i ordered kazdin's book today , after talking to dh and begging him to read it with me. i HAVE to have him 100% on board, it can't be just me, and he's NOT a reader. but he agreed to read it with me, because i must have his help. so i'm familiar with what you're saying. I know i sound cynical here because its a "Safe place" to vent. I do make a point to do the "catch him being good" (not as much as i SHOULD, per nurtured heart approach..i'm just..tired, mentally. i think if i have dh on board "all in" it will be better) 

maybe the kazdin book will be better. thing is, when he is actively hurting the cats, i *must* stop him. I can't stand by and ignore it so as to not reinforce what i don't want. I don't know how to make it stop (QUICKLY! There is a suffering animal, there is NO TIME for being diplomatic here. it must.stop.NOW) the way i see it, i can either ask/tell him to let the cat go with words, or i can physically free the cat. The rare time he's being nice to them, I do point it out. "you're petting him gently. he likes that. do you see how he's stretching out and closing his eyes? i can tell from his body language that he is happy!"


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## muddie (Nov 10, 2014)

I apologize about saying you were cynical. I have my moments like that too. You have the right idea. Hopefully, your spouse will get on board.

I was trying to avoid the P-word, but ignoring hurting the cat is not enough, you need to punish or use time-out. But, unless he is already cooperating with time-out, I figure he would defy that, so it would take a big effort to establish a effective time-out habit. I would take away a privilege for a short time, like 30 minutes of a favorite TV program, or some activity that he likes to do a lot. Impose it an an immediate reaction to abusing the cat, don't talk much since he's heard it before many times, be matter-of-fact about it not emotional. Take the cat away. Restrict something that he can't easily defy you on, if he throws a fit ignore the fit. Of course maybe he could escalate to a destructive tantrum that you cannot ignore, not sure. Don't make the restrictions longer or more severe, just repeat short ones as needed consistently for week or two and see if things improve.

Another thing that might be more effective than punishment is substitution. He could dangle a little cat toy on a string, or get him a harmless low energy laser pointer, something the cat would jump at. Maybe he would get enough stimulation from playing with the cat in a kind way and be less inclined to hurt the cat.


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## rparker (Jul 15, 2008)

LiLStar said:


> My husband doesn't think anything particularly unusual is up. He thinks it's just because there's so much clutter (and it's true, my living room floor is currently covered in toys. It's also regularly picked up. We have a crawler so it has to get picked up enough to sweep/vacuum daily) he literally thinks if I was a type A super organized type who kept a perfectly clean house, and planned cutesy pinterest style activities and took them places everything would be fine. My words not his.. Lol. But from how he talks, that's what it sounds like he thinks would be the magic behavior cure!


Physically harming animals and siblings, particularly continuously and after being corrected, is not normal behavior for a five-year-old, and it has nothing to do with how clean your house is or how crafty (or not) you are. You're correct that your husband needs to be on-board. He also needs to not attempt to shift the blame for your son's actions to you.

I've lived with a tantrum prone five-year-old, and two years later she's mostly outgrown it, but at no point were her younger sister or our pets in danger. I've also seen similar tantrums/"mood stuff" in other "high-spirited" and "explosive" children of AP parents we've known, but-again-they weren't repeatedly harming animals or doing anything as serious as deliberately hitting a younger child with a tool.

You're describing a tough situation. In your shoes, I'd seek professional help/ counseling for him, even if that means getting a second opinion from the one you've already gotten. And if the cats aren't safe around him, you need to find them another home or a way to keep them in an area of the house he can't access. You can't run interference 24-7, particularly with other children and one of them a baby. What you're describing isn't fair to or safe for the cats, and at some point he could really harm them or they could be pushed too far and bite (or scratch, assuming they still have claws).

Sorry if this comes across as blunt, but five-years-old is old enough to understand and accept basic boundaries regarding the safety of other children and animals.

And for what it's worth, I'm writing this from the perspective of an adult with diagnosed mood and anxiety disorders with an Alfie Kohn style approach to gentle discipline... what you're struggling with reads as being outside the bounds of handling on your own/with parenting books. You sound like a very loving/engaged parent, and while parenting in general is hard what you're describing is a lot for anyone to tackle on his/her own without objective, outside support.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

LiLStar said:


> There's the popular opinion that kids, all kids, need a FIRM limit and need to know that they must not cross it. Classic examples being "don't touch" and they hover their finger while watching for parental reaction, then slowly touching, briefly, with one finger, trying to figure out, does mom/dad really mean it? With popular opinion stating that you need to consistently enforce that limit and not tolerate the testing, and eventually they will relax, happily trusting that the limit is strong.
> 
> That probably is best for most kids. All? Is a more fluid, stretchy limit more practical for some?..........


I just wanted to respond to your general question. When approaching parenting decisions, i start from the premise-do unto others as you would have them do unto you. In other words, do i myself like limits firmly imposed upon me? No i dont. I like determining my own limits. This is as true now, as it was when i was 4. If a person tells me what to do, both then and now, i had to find a way to subvert it. It sounds like your son is like this.

So, as a result, i have never agreed with the dictum-all kids needs limits. I think that life comes with limits anyway-gravity is one example. The human body goes by a certain rhythm, which is a type of limit. As for arbitrary limits, not so important. Some kids like them, some kids dont. It depends on the temperament.
Routine is important, but routines can be flexible.

I do believe that all people, both young and old, need autonomy.

(muddie, you might want to put some people in a lab and confirm that with some data, it could be that people dont need autonomy after all)

On the subject of food sensitivities, my ds2 would never listen, always picked fights, couldnt handle transitions, was a sugar addict, broke out in rashes-eliminating gluten and lactose removed all of these symptoms. He still has his own mind, but is more reasonable about it. Gluten seems to be the biggest trigger in many people.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

SweetSilver said:


> I disagree with boundaries for the sake of boundaries because you (collective "you") think kids need them. Just like I disagree with making sure kids learn "no" so they can learn no (though I think it's useful to allow them to practice, like trying to see if you can leave down something fragile because they will respect the "no" ). I could go on in this vein, but it would distract from the point.
> 
> So, you set boundaries because some boundaries are needed, and if that makes them feel comfortable then great, if it doesn't, well, some boundaries are necessary *for us* and it doesn't matter anyway.
> 
> I think the advice was meant to make parents feel comfortable about setting boundaries, and it's true for many kids. But then people hear that backwards and think that boundaries are needed to make a child feel comforted. That's way, it's wrong. Just plain wrong.


Agreed.


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## Trần Ngọc Thùy (Mar 17, 2015)

Maybe that's what he's going through.


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## LTurtle (Aug 7, 2012)

LiLStar said:


> This is something I've heard, of course, for years. Kids appreciate boundaries, they make them feel safe. Could there be exceptions in certain highly independent personalities? My 5yo seems frustrated, angry, and possibly on some level embarrassed by boundaries. (like they're infantilizing or something) I think he hates giving in to parents having control. Or more so, even if he is fine with the boundary, he prefers to go out of his way to make it look like he's not submitting to it. (I know, hard to describe) kinda like his cooperation is an incidental coincidence. He is challenging in other ways like being really aggressive with siblings, flipping out when he doesn't get his way, mood swings.. But I'm seeing this stand out as a separate thing. When he's not fighting with siblings, when things are otherwise going smoothly, when he's not hungry or tired or fishing for attention. He maintains a need for being "in charge" do ALL kids, without exception, like boundaries? (I'm not questioning the need for them!)
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2


To answer your original question; not all children like boundaries. In fact most children don't. But all children NEED boundaries that are clear and consistent and predictable. If you and your DH are not enforcing the same rules in the same way, you're going to get increased opposition.

The behavior profile you describe sounds not unlike my daughter at the same age. Her first eval (at age 7) was by the school psychologist and was a total bust, they basically gave us the brush off. We finally talked to our MD about it when she was 10 and got a referral for a Developmental Pediatrician. He did a three part eval, much of which my daughter wasn't even present for so we could speak candidly. She was diagnosed with Generalized Anxiety Disorder, ADHD and high functioning Autism Spectrum Disorder. She's also gifted which helped her to mask her difficulties at school/in public, but she would have full on meltdowns at home.

Since the second eval a year ago we have cut out sugar and gluten, added supplements for vitamin D, probiotics and melatonin and started medication. She still has difficulties but has made SOOO much progress. I feel like I've gotten my daughter back. My biggest regret is not seeking help sooner. I kept trying different parenting techniques, taking her to counseling, using books and games to teach emotional literacy... But I couldn't fix the problem because I wasn't the problem.

I'd strongly encourage you to get your son evaluated again. When you do, bring typed pages detailing the difficulties he has - especially how long they have been going on and how frequently they occur, in addition to any triggers you're aware of. What you are dealing with is really outside the range of normal behavior for this age, and it sounds as though he is becoming potentially dangerous in addition to disrupting your household. Your husband needs to get on board with acknowledging and addressing the issue at hand rather than blaming you for it and undermining your efforts. I will also say that you sound like a really good mother, you're already using all or most of the strategies I would recommend for dealing with a difficult child (which is why I'm not going into that here).

Please, seek help for yourself and your son. It can get easier. You have my sympathy and best wishes.


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## luckiest (Apr 29, 2009)

LiLStar said:


> This is something I've heard, of course, for years. Kids appreciate boundaries, they make them feel safe. Could there be exceptions in certain highly independent personalities? My 5yo seems frustrated, angry, and possibly on some level embarrassed by boundaries. (like they're infantilizing or something) I think he hates giving in to parents having control. Or more so, even if he is fine with the boundary, he prefers to go out of his way to make it look like he's not submitting to it. (I know, hard to describe) kinda like his cooperation is an incidental coincidence. He is challenging in other ways like being really aggressive with siblings, flipping out when he doesn't get his way, mood swings.. But I'm seeing this stand out as a separate thing. When he's not fighting with siblings, when things are otherwise going smoothly, when he's not hungry or tired or fishing for attention. He maintains a need for being "in charge" do ALL kids, without exception, like boundaries? (I'm not questioning the need for them!)
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2


I've been asking myself this same question for a log time. My 4yo is also highly independent and spirited. You say it seems like your son finds boundaries demeaning, and I can definitely see that in my son. The way I've interpreted his reaction to boundaries is hat he perceives it as a breach of trust - he gets angry and hurt when I set a boundary because I didn't trust him to use his own judgment, to know how many cookies are too many, to know how high is too high to climb, etc. The other day he got really upset with me for reminding him to stop when he got to the intersection on our walk, because he told me he knows to stop and I didn't have to remind him.

He hates feeling like he has acquiesced, like he has given in. Playful oarenting is much more effective with him than laying down a direct boundary - ex, if we're needing to leave the park, if I say something like "we're leaving in ten minutes" it's an open invitation for a power struggle. But if we race to the car, or if we talk about what we're going to do when we get home, something like that, then it's so much easier because he doesn't feel like he's being forced to comply with my will.

Also, I've never felt good about reinforcing a boundary when it requires me to overpower him physically. Like, we're leaving the park in ten minutes, and at that point you can either walk or I can carry you. The few times I've done it, I've felt really icky and like *I* just crossed a boundary with him, like I violated his right to bodily autonomy. I probably wouldn't feel that way if his reaction to being picked up was to whine a bit, rather than a full scale kicking screaming showdown. 
It's less of an issue now at 4 than it was at 2. Now we can negotiate, and he can sometimes see my reasoning behind why I need him to do or not do something. But, I've also learned to back off a LOT and just trust him. Talking to him as an equal, asking for his input on a situation, hearing his ideas on how to solve a problem - SO much better than setting and maintaining a firm boundary with him.

I definitely think some (most?) kids do well with boundaries. It can help them feel secure to know that they have a confident parent who is guiding the ship. But I also think some kids have an innate sense of their own power and authority, and do better with a longer leash and gentle guidance rather than distinct boundaries. I think my son also sees things as gray rather than black and white, and so do I. A rule like "no throwing rocks" doesn't make sense to him. Don't throw rocks at people, sure, but no throwing rocks ever? Don't go up the slide when someone's coming down, sure, but never go up the slide?

One boundary that we do set a lot is that he cannot make other people do things they don't want to do. He can't make a friend, or me, keep playing a game after they want to stop, stuff like that. He gets to be virtually 100% in control of himself, but not other people.

It's just one of those things where so many kids respond well to boundaries that it's hard for people to understand that it may not be a universal truth. People with babies who sleep well when swaddled have a hard time comprehending that there are babies who hate it.

OP, have you read the Continuum Concept? That really struck a chord with me. The way she describes the complete freedom and trust that the kids in that village have, was a lightbulb moment. That's what DS is expecting from me and his environment - that he be trusted to use his own judgment and to be allowed to trust in himself. All of these corrections and rules that kids gets ends up eroding their own sense of judgment because we're telling them to listen to us, not themselves. It's a tough balance because we don't live in that kind of environment (kids don't have an innate sense of how to be safe around unnatural dangers, like cars) and we have different cultural ideals (keep your clothes on is a rule we struggled with for a long time). But I think understanding what kids naturally expect from their "village" is a good thing to keep in mind.

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## lauren (Nov 20, 2001)

I think people misinterpret boundaries always as an artificially set limit. Sometimes boundaries are just the constraints of life.

At some point you have to leave the park. Do you get to decide or does your child decide to leave the park? A boundary-less approach is your child gets to decide when to leave the park, regardless of when that is....if he wants to stay and play until the sun has gone down and the family just won't get dinner because he wants to stay and play....there is no boundary there. 

When the mom is bigger, stronger, wiser because she knows he's had enough, and the other child needs to be picked up from school and dinner needs to get made.....that is a boundary. The question becomes, who gets to decide how much, how long, and what to do eat, play with? Is it the child who is just learning, who doesn't have enough life experience to evaluate the options, or the mom/dad, who generally 'knows' what a little person needs to grow, learn, stay healthy?

Children who have too much power to make these decisions can end up with anxiety (because it is A LOT of responsibility) to make these decisions, or have a lot of problems with any kind of authority.

Some children come into the world already wired to have issues with authority by temperament. Do they get to never have authority? How will that turn out for them? Do they need to learn a balance?


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## lauren (Nov 20, 2001)

THis is from Jean Liedloff in her article "Who's in Control: The Unhappy Consequences of Being Child Centered" http://www.continuum-concept.org/reading/whosInControl.html

_Put simply, when a child is impelled to try to control the behavior of an adult, it is not because the child wants to succeed, but because the child needs to be certain that the adult knows what he or she is doing. Furthermore, the child cannot resist such testing until the adult stands firm and the child can have that certainty.	No child would dream of trying to take over the initiative from an adult unless that child receives a clear message that such action is expected - not wanted, but expected! *Moreover, once the child feels he has attained control, he becomes confused and frightened and must go to any extreme to compel the adult to take the leadership back where it belongs*.

When this is understood, the parents' fear of imposing upon their child is allayed, and they see that there is no call for adversariality. *By maintaining control, they are fulfilling their beloved child's needs,* rather than acting in opposition to them._


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## tracyamber (May 26, 2011)

@lauren that was a good read, thanks for sharing. I have a lot to think about now....

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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Lauren
<<I think people misinterpret boundaries always as an artificially set limit. Sometimes boundaries are just the constraints of life.>>

Yes, i agree. Also boundaries are imposed by routine. All humans, all animals, all life, follow a certain routine. The sun rises and sets every day doesnt it? The earth rotates and gives us seasons doesnt it? Life operates on a cycle. Having a routine, i would argue, is fundamental to our well being and fundamental to our biology, well,... to life itself. So yes, boundaries are inherent, and children, as well as adults need them, if that is how you define them.

Liedloff
"_Put simply, when a child is impelled to try to control the behavior of an adult, it is not because the child wants to succeed, but because the child needs to be certain that the adult knows what he or she is doing. Furthermore, the child cannot resist such testing until the adult stands firm and the child can have that certainty. No child would dream of trying to take over the initiative from an adult unless that child receives a clear message that such action is expected - not wanted, but expected! *Moreover, once the child feels he has attained control, he becomes confused and frightened and must go to any extreme to compel the adult to take the leadership back where it belongs*."_

I just dont buy this. If it were true, then the tantruming child would immediately respond positively to a parent who sets a boundary that was counter to the childs demand. I wish it were so easy. Many children, ( i was one of them, and so are my kids) would just get all the more incensed.

I personally, have never witnessed in my own parenting, or the parenting of others, a child begging for more authority by means of oppositional behavior. Of course, if you insist on believing that, you will see the behavior through that lens.

Having said that, i think Leidloff offers very interesting insights on human nature within a tribal context. There is no doubt that humans operate differently in groups than as individuals or small families. Witness the difference between how children behave in schools versus at home.

(Personally, i believe that we evolved to be in larger groups.)

So, i would say children need routine, they need to feel a sense of belonging and of being safe. But they are no different to adults in this respect.

Do they need boundaries? It depends on how you define it.....

I find my children, as do I, benefit very much from routines, that contain flexibility within them.


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## luckiest (Apr 29, 2009)

I definitely agree that it depends on how you define "boundary." Yes, we have to leave the park at some point and it's not going to be the child who decides when most of the time. But if I make it a game to leave, if we race each other to the car, then have I "set a boundary"? I've gained compliance through play, but I feel like that's different than saying, "we're leaving in ten minutes" and then when the ten minutes are up, we go whether the kid wants to or not...

DS does not respond to a line in the sand. On the other hand, there are times when he needs to be told no because he's looking for emotional release. It's obvious - when he's crying because I've told him we can't stop to get a haircut on the way home, when he cries because his eyes aren't orange like the cat's, when he cries because he wants our address numbers to be on the house instead of the mailbox and I won't let him paint on the house - he's seeking an outlet, he needs to cry about something and he's begging me to tell him no so he can let it all out. But I don't see that as seeking boundaries necessarily, just seeking release. 




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## sillysapling (Mar 24, 2013)

I don't think you've got a typical child on your hands, and you really need to figure out what's going on before you'll get anywhere. Most special needs severely alter what your child will and won't respond to. You might find advice for typical kids that happens to work for your son- but it'll be a far easier process to just figure out what's going on and get to the root of the problem.

Have you tried seeing an occupational therapist? Who did the evaluation?

Also- what kind of schedule does your son have? Is he in school? (how does he act in school?)

Now, on boundaries:

I've seen parents who let their kids literally control everything- including the parents. The kids could control what emotions the parents were allowed to show, where they were allowed to go, what they were allowed to say, what they were allowed to do. The parents hoped that giving in constantly would assuage the constant tantrums. It didn't. There isn't _any_ age where it's appropriate for a child to have that level of control over _anyone_. Even "Your sister is upset because of what happened at school, she's allowed to be upset" is a boundary.

There are also parents who are completely neglectful. Their child could run away and they wouldn't blink. Their child could break a leg and would have to call for an ambulance by themself. Their child could smash the cat's head in and the parents would just tut about the mess. There is no point that the parent shows true concern for the child's well being, so the child has no reason to believe their parent truly cares for them.

Boundaries doesn't mean "this child has to live in a strictly regimented military-style household". Most boundaries are things that we don't even think of as boundaries, just common sense and general decency.

There are some kids who truly live with no boundaries. No boundaries for how they're allowed to act, no boundaries that show they're loved and cared for. That is _horrible_.

The severity of the boundaries, though, that's the trick.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

Sillysapling, you make good points. But the examples you raise bring to mind unmet needs of these children, like love, belonging, knowing someone cares, basic food and shelter needs.... not so much need for boundaries. You could put them in prison, and give them those boundaries, but it wouldnt solve the real problem.

It brings to mind Malow's heirarchy of needs-boundaries arent among them
Using a triangle metaphor from tip to base, the needs are as follows:
1.Self actualization (realizing one's potential)
2.Esteem needs (being respected by others as a result of your accomplishments)
3.Social needs- being loved, accepted, belonging
4.Safety needs- being safe and sheltered from harm
5.Physiological needs-food, water, sleep

(https://images.search.yahoo.com/ima...&sigb=136i9pjq3&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-004_)

Its not so much the boundary that is needed, but the boundaries that come with any of the above. Or to put in NVC language, boundaries are not a need, they are a strategy for meeting needs.
(NVC- Non Violent Communication)

I agree the OP's child might be less typical, as are my own. But basic needs remain the same.

It would be interesting to contemplate where in this scheme of needs those with 'special needs' fall.

Another thing, i think boundaries are required by everyone, insofar as we have different needs. So the trick, is to meet everyone's needs in some manner, that will require give and take.

Luckiest, i like the idea of playful parenting when leaving the playground.

What i find helpful when leaving the playground, is to offer my child 'one last thing they really want to do', before leaving, that way their need for having fun, and autonomy is met, and my need for leaving by a certain time is met. But i dont think imposing the boundary as meeting my child's need-it meets my need.


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## sillysapling (Mar 24, 2013)

The case of neglect may not meet needs, but the case of an over-indulgent parent certainly meets all the child's needs: except for boundaries. The child is showered with love and affection, their stomach is constantly kept full, their place in the family is constantly reaffirmed, all needs are met- except the needs for boundaries.

I'd argue that Maslow's Hierarchy actually includes the need for boundaries- and on the second rung, no less. Boundaries are needed for security. In complete anarchy- there is no security. Without the confidence that people respect everyone's boundaries, we have no safety. If you have reason to believe that any given person in your life will attack you, hurt you, lie to you, steal from you at any given moment- there's no safety. The basic boundaries of "don't hurt people or others' belongings" is *vital* to Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

You cannot expect someone to believe their boundaries will be respected when they're taught to disrespect everyone else's boundaries.


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## lauren (Nov 20, 2001)

Personally I think the word "limits" is more what we are talking about here. Boundaries pertains to a family systems term in which family members blur or confuse where they end and another person begins, as in enmeshed relationships. 

Limits are what we set up to teach positive behavior and to discourage negative behavior or behavior that infringes on the rights or needs of others. 

The only way children can learn how to conduct themselves in a way that isn't constantly offensive to others is to have limits.... I would argue.


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## sillysapling (Mar 24, 2013)

Unless a child has an issue that seriously limits their social awareness (and some do!), most kids will learn limits even without parental help. If you bite someone, that person doesn't want to play with you anymore. If you lie to someone, they won't trust you anymore. If you're rude to people, they won't be your friends. But parents can make it a much kinder learning curve than leaving kids to pick it up themselves.

There are also ways that kids seriously vary in what boundaries/limits/structure they need. Some kids *NEED* structure- even if they can't establish it themself. I'm that kind of person. I need structure. It doesn't have to be especially rigid (thankfully), but I need it- and I'm utterly hopeless at establishing it for myself. It's part of why I really don't want to be a SAHP. Then there are people who thrive on unstructured time and would fail with a rigid schedule. It's one of the hard things about parenting- your individual child doesn't come with an instruction manual, so you have to just try and figure out what's right for your own child.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

lauren said:


> Personally I think the word "limits" is more what we are talking about here. Boundaries pertains to a family systems term in which family members blur or confuse where they end and another person begins, as in enmeshed relationships.
> 
> Limits are what we set up to teach positive behavior and to discourage negative behavior or behavior that infringes on the rights or needs of others.
> 
> *The only way children can learn how to conduct themselves in a way that isn't constantly offensive to others is to have limits.... I would argue*.


Personally, i wouldnt use the language of 'limits' in this case. I teach my children to be considerate of others, ie, i put it in a positive framework-thinking about others, being considerate of others-is 'doing' something. I dont think of it as 'limits'.


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## luckiest (Apr 29, 2009)

lauren said:


> Limits are what we set up to teach positive behavior and to discourage negative behavior or behavior that infringes on the rights or needs of others.
> 
> The only way children can learn how to conduct themselves in a way that isn't constantly offensive to others is to have limits.... I would argue.


I think the reason that this question doesn't have a clear answer and that parenting is so murky in general, is that our expectations of them and the way we are compelled to teach them to act and behave is based on cultural values, and kids are culture- and value-less. It's in innocence that they throw food on the floor, strip naked in public, throw sand in the air, scream indoors, run into the street, etc. They don't share our values, they don't understand them, and when we fail to recognize that, we end up seeing them as out of control little hellions in desperate need of our intervention, lest they grow up to be out of control big hellions.

So they do need guidance to learn where social boundaries lie. It's a shame that our culture is so often at odds with the impulses of little people, we collectively seem to think that babies should be born knowing the rules, so we see a two year old behaving like a normal two year old and think wow, what a brat! But, this is our culture and eventually will need to learn how to function within it, and that involves setting boundaries, or at least pointing out where boundaries exist.

But whether all kids like them, or need them to feel secure...I'm less convinced. I think that, to the degree that that is true, it is a manufactured truth rather than a universal one. What I mean is, perhaps the environment most of our kids grow up in (single family home, one caregiver present at a time most of the time, probably only siblings for playmates, tightly controlled environment) is so far off from what children are biologically programmed to expect to experience (village, communal living, multiple caregivers, a herd of peers to run around with, relatively little supervision/intervention and heaps of trust) that they end up feeling untethered and insecure, and then "need" boundaries in order to regain the security that they've lost in their "artificial" environment.

"In the wild," a kid would never need to just have ten more minutes at the park before heading home for dinner, because the park is everywhere. They wouldn't need limits on screen time if there were no screens. They wouldn't have meltdowns in the candy aisle. They wouldn't have blood sugar crashes. Food battles are pretty much a first world problem. They would have the space to work out disputes with playmates on their own. They wouldn't have to hold a hand through a parking lot. So many of these areas where boundaries are "needed" are artificial.

And maybe needing boundaries is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you think they're necessary, you'll see justifications for them everywhere. And maybe they really do have a positive impact on kids...there's just a huge disconnect between our culture and the primal beings that kids are, and our culture is just not very child friendly.

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## lauren (Nov 20, 2001)

contactmaya said:


> Personally, i wouldnt use the language of 'limits' in this case. I teach my children to be considerate of others, ie, i put it in a positive framework-thinking about others, being considerate of others-is 'doing' something. I dont think of it as 'limits'.


Many children do fine with that approach. I have two of them that have. Not all children can learn it that way, though, although parents vehemently wish they would! Kids who are neurodevelopmentally different, for example, as with kids that have ADHD or an autism spectrum disorder (even mild) often need things to be much,much clearer...need limits spelled out quite clearly. Children who are prone to testing parental rules, boundaries, limits, whatever one would like to call them, are often the very ones that really could never learn through a laissez faire approach like that.


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## contactmaya (Feb 21, 2006)

luckiest said:


> I think the reason that this question doesn't have a clear answer and that parenting is so murky in general, is that our expectations of them and the way we are compelled to teach them to act and behave is based on cultural values, and kids are culture- and value-less. It's in innocence that they throw food on the floor, strip naked in public, throw sand in the air, scream indoors, run into the street, etc. They don't share our values, they don't understand them, and when we fail to recognize that, we end up seeing them as out of control little hellions in desperate need of our intervention, lest they grow up to be out of control big hellions.
> 
> So they do need guidance to learn where social boundaries lie. It's a shame that our culture is so often at odds with the impulses of little people, we collectively seem to think that babies should be born knowing the rules, so we see a two year old behaving like a normal two year old and think wow, what a brat! But, this is our culture and eventually will need to learn how to function within it, and that involves setting boundaries, or at least pointing out where boundaries exist.
> 
> ...


Well said, especially the bolded. I think this is the crux of the matter.

Also, i agree with some of the other points raised here, such as needing a different approach for different children.
However, i wouldnt describe putting something 'in the positive' as a laissez faire approach. Teaching my kids to be considerate of others, is actively teaching them something, and pointing out how their behavior, good or bad, might be affecting others. Definitely not laissez faire....maybe more abstract than laying down unbendable rules.


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## SweetSilver (Apr 12, 2011)

luckiest said:


> And maybe needing boundaries is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you think they're necessary, you'll see justifications for them everywhere. And maybe they really do have a positive impact on kids...there's just a huge disconnect between our culture and the primal beings that kids are, and our culture is just not very child friendly.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


:twothumbs


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## Daisy8s (Apr 8, 2015)

I'm new to this forum but really appreciated reading these thoughtful and meaningful responses from the members.

I'm a special education teacher, specifically for children with behavioral/emotional disabilities. I'm also a mom of two boys, one of whom had an extremely difficult toddler stage full of tantrums and rages. 

Here are my two cents on boundaries. Because real life does have boundaries we have to prepare our kids for them. I explained to my kids the expectations of each experience before it began. I phrased the boundary as something that was inherent to that place/time and not about me setting up an arbitrary constriction just because I wanted to be in control. 

Example: I explained that drivers in cars can't see kids in parking lots so they had to stay by me to avoid being hit by the car. It wasn't about me requiring hand-holding; it was about a rule all kids followed to be safe. 

I tried as much as possible to remove myself as the rule enforcer and make the situation the rule creator. Every has to speak quietly when in the library. Everyone has to walk on the sidewalk, not the grass. Everyone has to say please/thank you. These are the rules of a civil society. 

Today I get compliments from teachers and other parents about two things: my 12 and 8-yr-old boys are both highly verbal and very respectful. We did so much talking and clearly defined expectations at such an early age and so consistently thereafter that I think it made them into confident children who know how to manage situations. 

Of course there were times they were punished; nobody is perfect. They made mistakes and then there were natural consequences. If they ran around in the store and hid from me then it was explained that I could no longer trust them and now they had to hold my hand or hold onto the cart for the rest of the trip. Next trip we'd try again and hopefully they'd do better. 

In answer to the question: do kids LIKE boundaries? I think it's not about liking the boundary but instead it's about kids gaining confidence from knowing what is expected in each situation and how to meet those expectations. I see kids in families where the parents are inconsistent and unclear about expectations for behavior and those kids are unhappy. Imagine a boss who kept changing your job requirements--that would be so frustrating! 

Kids in families with inconsistent boundaries or unclear expectations don't know how to succeed and are angry at being jerked around. So, yes, in a sense those kids "like" boundaries for the predictableness it brings to life. 

But, the OP is describing an ODD child and that's a whole other matter altogether. What works best with my ODD students is not setting up any one person as the authority figure to fight. It's best to talk about general rules everyone in society follows. We all come in from recess when the bell rings so the school can stay on schedule. We all follow these procedures in the bathroom so it stays clean for everyone. Etc. 

My advice to this mother would be to rephrase expectations so that they are universal to everyone rather than aimed at just him. Sounds like she's already on the track of explaining WHY he must do things (e.g. why the cats don't want to be held too tight) instead of giving an unexplained no and that's great. Eliciting his participation in setting boundaries BEFORE an event is also helpful. (e.g. jointly setting physical boundaries at the beach when first arriving rather than engaging in a power struggle later).

Final summary: remove yourself as the authority figure to fight. Instead recreate yourself as the Explainer of Societal Rules and the Facilitator of Joint Boundary Setting. It might seem funny to give yourself a title, even an imaginary one in your own head, but it helped me, as a teacher, to redefine my role when dealing with ODD students.


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