# Why is our society so un-child-friendly?



## padomi (Dec 28, 2002)

People give a lot of lip service to putting kids first, etc. But daily I am met with situations that just make me so sad for kids. It almost feels like people are LOOKING for things kids do to fuss at. I can't tell you how many times my little girl (2 yr old) - who has this fascination with buttons - has gone to push buttons on the card swiper machine (with my permission) and been told not to by the clerk. Or how many times she's asked to hold something in a store until time to go (I've taught her that she can hold a certain object until we leave then has to put it back - which she does without complaint most of the time) only to have some clerk come up and say "Can I have that back please?" Do people really think I'm okay if they roll their eyes or make some snide comments when my child fusses or whines a little? It really infuriates me. My child can't take a step without being told to "Be Careful!" by my MIL or my step mother? Geez, she can walk and even run! If she falls, it may hurt a little while, but if you keep squashing her spirit, it will hurt forever!! In our society, people treat children as though they should be neither seen nor heard. Very sad. Children aren't valued in our society. They aren't given credit for being able to make decisions, think, be trusted. It's no surprise kids grow up angry. I'd be angry too.

Vent over. And please feel free to move this if I posted it in the wrong place.


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## WonderWild (May 13, 2004)

I agree. In fact, just today a co-workers sister came in with her 28 mo old and they ate in our lunch room. He was doing typical things like going back and forth from the soda machine pretending to bring them drinks and such. Never sat down for a moment. Always on the go. The mom said something to us like "just let us know if he's too noisy and we will go somewhere else so you can enjoy your lunch". We actually were all getting a kick out of watching him. Especially when he announced that he was pooping









I just thought to myself that if anyone was getting annoyed by his behavior that it was them that had the problem. He was not screaming or anything like that. I understand that she was being polite since she was on our turf and in a business environment but if I were her I don't think I would have offered to leave just b/c he's being energetic.

I just hate it that it seems like everyone is on the lookout for "bad behavior" and are so ready to point it out. Why can't they just let them be!!


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## padomi (Dec 28, 2002)

Quote:

I just hate it that it seems like everyone is on the lookout for "bad behavior" and are so ready to point it out. Why can't they just let them be!!
That is exactly what I was trying to say. I mean really, if they aren't hurting anyone or anything, then leave them alone! I hate the "No" attitude everyone carries around with them. People should ask more often "Why not?" I very much want to raise my child to be a free spirit. It means going against the grain of society, but so be it.


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## mpeel (Nov 20, 2001)

Our nation as a whole (and others probably but no experience there) is completely un-child-friendly. Chemical use is rampant and is hardest on our smallest citizens. No one wants noise. Do you know how much my kids would LOVE the symphony or ballet. But neither can go. I get rude looks when my two are helping me grocery shop. They may be 1/2 an aisle ahead of me and slightly noisy choosing juices or fruits, etc. But they are not rude or in the way. They know their manners. But it drives people nuts. This is a rant I could go on and on about. What about child-friendly work environments. Why spend X on improving daycare. Why not improve work conditions so more children can remain with their parents? My daughter could not visit her dying best friend because she was too young to visit. It had been three months since she had seen her. She died without Beth seeing her.

Ugh, gotta stop. I just posted all that to say - I am with you!


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## flight (Feb 3, 2004)

I agree that our society is not child-friendly, but as a store clerk, I would like to offer another point of view.

It is a sad comment on our society that part of my job is to secretly assume everyone who walks in the store is attempting to shoplift, including moms with strollers. I have to watch very carefully what children pick up while they are in my store, because the parent may 1) see that they like it, and steal it from my store, or 2) not even notice that the child has it and accidentally leave the store with it.

This is not to imply that you are either inattentive or a shoplifter, because from your post you are obviously paying a lot of attention to what your child is doing in the store and even letting her participate in "shopping." But if you came in my store tomorrow, I'd have no way of knowing that.

I agree with you on the rest. People (grown-ups) often treat children like they're not really people. Unfortunately I see a lot of that in my store too. It's not pleasant.


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## menudo (May 21, 2002)

I saw both extremes at my last job working at a gift shop. Now most of our customers were kids on school and camp trips-so Ibecame the adult in charge. Most of my coworkers THOUGHT they were nice, but they were so mean-in the less than month i worked their I am embarrassed to admit I had people compliment me that I was the only decent human in the building, write in, etc. My cowrkers ignored all people but would yell ay kids too. Not me. Well, once or twice when I caught some ready to steal...

ANYWAY, I would see parents who a) let their kids touch everything, even glass, throw balls in the crowded store, etc. and not even politely say "Please don't do that." b) Spank a 2yo or under for touching a stuffed animal! I rarely saw a middle point!

I am child friendly and that's what I focus on. DS is difficult and can be annoying. Friday I man threatened to take his belt off (I let it go as it was in a Dentist office and he hada bad toothache, not argueing with a man w/ a toothache!!) when my son was flipping out. Of course, DS had no clue what that meant and just stared at him. DS also seemed to take to the guy. Noone tried to COMFORT my very freaked out DS. the place was crowded and an hour into waiting a patient came out in ankle and wrist shackles with 2 prison guards...lol The prisons choice for dental care. We left w/o ever being seen.

Ok, Iam babbling nut stay child friendly, it sets a nice example...


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## loving-my-babies (Apr 2, 2004)

I agree. it's so sad for the children.. they deserve to have a world that supports their being children.


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## wende (Oct 4, 2003)

I was recently thinking this exact same thing. I was at a hotel in San Francisco and we had just checked out. My dh was going to get the car while the kids and I waited inside. The kids decided to take a look at the postcards so I walked over with them and looked. As soon as my kids touched one the lady that was working the stand came around and frantically started looking outside. When a truck pulled up she asked "is that truck yours? The blanco one?" I said "huh?" ok, first, we're not hispanic and neither was she (in fact she was Asian with an an Asian accent) and the only truck out there was black, not white. So she said "the black truck, is it yours?" I said "oh, no, that's not ours." So then she gets really jumpy and litterally grabbed the post card thing that my 9yo dd had in her hand (it was like a collection of them, I had a different one in my hand as well) and said "don't touch, put it back, you're ruining it". I was pissed. I was actually going to buy what my dd had. It was a cool collection of all the things we'd seen while there and since my camera doesn't work we didn't get any pics that trip. I yelled at the lady that there is no excuse to treat a child like she is a second class citizen and that my dd was at least as important, if not more so, than she was and that children need to be treated with dignity and respect. I also told her that I probably would have bought everything that my kids would have asked for (they each had their eye on one thing) were she not so rude and disrespectful. Just then my dh came in and asked what was going on. I told him and he shot darts at her with his eyes. She started stumbling over her words saying "no, no, that's not what happened, she was ruining it." Sure, if by ruining it you mean touching it. I probably could have handled the situation better, myself, but man I was mad.


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## WonderWild (May 13, 2004)

On the other hand though, things are so different now than in the era of "it takes a village to raise a child". What I mean is that we as parents cannot be trusting of strangers helping us with our children. For instance, if I were out somewhere and my child was losing it, if a stranger came up to try to engage my child I'd immediately be on the defensive. I'd be watching them closely and be wondering what it is they are wanting. There are very, very bad people out there unfortunately. And on the flip side of that many people probably don't try and help b/c they are afraid of being accused of being on of those bad people. KWIM?

About being allowed in certain functions such as a symphony or ballet I agree that this is stupid. Why not open up this world for our children so that they can benefit. They probably would enjoy it much more than even we would. I can see them dancing down the isle now.


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## Kinipela79 (Apr 8, 2003)

Quote:

About being allowed in certain functions such as a symphony or ballet I agree that this is stupid. Why not open up this world for our children so that they can benefit. They probably would enjoy it much more than even we would. I can see them dancing down the isle now.
Just wanted to add a positive note - my dh directs an adult choir and at our last concert a little one started screeching in the audience (my dh scares me too sometimes...ha ha just kidding) but he turned around on stage and said "I LOVE little kids - that's great" or something like that and it totally relieved any tension in the place and made it known that small children are welcome at our concerts. We LOVE it when people bring their children because it's so important for them to be exposed to all sorts of different music, dance, theater, art. A couple years ago I played Maria in West Side Story and brought my ds to rehearsal with me a few times and it was such an experience for him. To see everything getting put together (plus some of the guys in the cast took him to the costume room and had a whole play of their own lol). So just a little side note from a couple of child friendly people!!


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

I am currently working retail. We have to through AT LEAST one pillow away a week because a kid has held onto it through the store and got it to dirty to sale. We have to throw toys and books away all the time because parents don't watch and the children are to rough on them. We get chewed on books that toddlers have road in the cart and chewed. It really can be a financial loss for our store that we pass on to the customer.

I have had to ask kids not to through balls, swing swords, swing their arms in our glass/ crystal section. We have had children hurt seriously on our doors because of playing on or around them.

As for the card swiper machine depending on the system it can lock it up. Our old machines locked up. Now you can push away a no big deal. Since you don't know if their machines are quirking this request might well be reasonable.

I agree our word is not always child friendly but there are things we can do to make it friendly. Understand why stores don't like you to let your child hold something that you are not going to purchase. Bring something for them. Maybe a surprise goody bag.

When she wants to push the swipe buttons have her help you.

I think sometimes people are so child unfriendly is because parents tend to forget there are others. Some parents that take their child to a movie, theater, et and let them scream, cry, run around not realizing how annoying it is to other patrons. Some times the best thing we can do is sit towards the back and leave when our children act like children and have had enough of an activity. Some parents don't respect that the child cannot sit, talk quitely, and eat at fancy restraunts for 2 hours. The child disturbs others.

Our culture has changed were if mom is in a store she can send the kids outside to play while she finishes her duties.

******As for the grandmothers always saying "BE CAREFUL" you just have to smile and move on. I bet they still remind their children to do things like put on a coat. You will not change them. You just have to say, "Oh, that is ok DC knows how to do that safely." "Oh, DC is smart enough to do that with out a problem.". When they come back I just don't want them hurt (and they will). Act shocked and question "Do you think I want DC hurt? I know she is perfectly capable." or "Which way do you think she could do that safely. Why don't you show her."


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## frand (May 8, 2004)

Marsupialmom you made some good points. I bemoan how child unfriendly so many places seem to be but your note reminded me that we went to a movie Saturday and a family with an infant sat down in front of us and the baby cried through most of the movie. It was just so rude, I mean the baby was clearly unhappy, even though it was a children's movie, it had loud noise and music -- too much for an infant! And as far as Grandma constantly saying, be careful -- oh man, don't get me started. Let's just say it's been my observation that the people who are constantly telling a child 'be careful' are the ones who have the least actual meaningful interaction with them. They just like to control.


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## menudo (May 21, 2002)

You remined me of one common retail experience. A baby has been chewing on a toy-usually a stuffed animal-and the parent hands it to me w/o telling me!! Then I get spit all over me!!!!!!!! At least some would tell me and offer another to scan, etc. EWWW!!!! Once a kid gave me his money and it was wet-I broke out in a rash til I washed up!!!! But that isn't the kids fault...

It's weird, I liek kids and I was always called the nice lady when working places with kids...I just gave them common respect...


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## beloved1 (Jan 24, 2004)

What really burns me up is when you go to a resteurant with your spouse and child and the host/ess says "table for 2? completely ignoring that there is another person there. This has happened several times and i always make a very strong reply NO, 3 PEOPLE. Also when their needs are simply ignored in a resteurant such as not bringing them silverware (Whattt???)

Can you believe?


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## mackinsiesmom (Apr 3, 2004)

Resturants get me too. Two weeks ago we were eating at a seafood house and they placed us in a booth. I had to ask for a high chair. I think they thought that a 13 month old is going to sit at a booth by herself. Then an employee came up and said that having the highchair there was a fire hazard, just to let us know. She then asked if my dd could sit in a booster chair. I said "no she is 13 months". My dh got mad by this point and asked why they sat us there in the first place. They lady thought we had requested on sitting there. Needless to say, we won't be back there. Another thing is that most waitresses and waiters won't ask what dd is having. I have learned to order her first or they will run off before I can get a chance to order hers.

It is sad that a child can't be a child but I always try and be aware of who is around because I do know that there are people who don't like the noise of children.


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## padomi (Dec 28, 2002)

Quote:

As for the card swiper machine depending on the system it can lock it up. Our old machines locked up. Now you can push away a no big deal. Since you don't know if their machines are quirking this request might well be reasonable.
If I can touch the buttons, why can't she? I show her which buttons to push and she pushes them!!! the same buttons I have to push for the transaction! If I have to push them anyway, why can't my child?!

Some of your posts just reiterate what I mean - those of you who work retail have demonstrated the attitudes I get from clerks exactly. When you see a kid getting a pillow dirty, then ask them mother to pay for it. If you see my child harmlessly carrying a bag of bread, then leave her alone. I'm trying to teach her responsiblility. I don't need the world getting in my way!


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## famousmockngbrd (Feb 7, 2003)

On the other hand -

DH, DS and I went out to eat last Sunday night. DS is almost 21 months. The waitress brought him a cup of water with a lid and a straw. A little while later, she was walking past and DS held his cup out to her, saying "more water, more water." I was talking to DH and barely heard him myself, but she stopped and said to him, "Oh, would you like some more water?" He said yes and gave her the cup and she took it and came right back with some more water for him.







She totally treated him like the little person he is, without undue fawning - it was great.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *padomi*
If I can touch the buttons, why can't she? I show her which buttons to push and she pushes them!!! the same buttons I have to push for the transaction! If I have to push them anyway, why can't my child?!

Some of your posts just reiterate what I mean - those of you who work retail have demonstrated the attitudes I get from clerks exactly. When you see a kid getting a pillow dirty, then ask them mother to pay for it. If you see my child harmlessly carrying a bag of bread, then leave her alone. I'm trying to teach her responsiblility. I don't need the world getting in my way!

If she is doing it this way, then it should be fine. When you mentioned about pushing buttons I took it as she was just sitting there playing and pushing buttons randomly (not helpfully, not when you would normally).

As for the dirty pillow: We cannot do this with a customer. We can and do get cussed out and get bad mouthed. Many parents think they have a right to treat good anyway they want and still not buy it. In many business you break it you bought it no longer applies and is not really enforcable. You might buy squished bread but more often or not, it is left unpurchased cutting into our profits/cost.


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## cinnamonamon (May 2, 2003)

I have to say that the people working in retail do take a lot of crap -- not that that makes it okay to go overboard, of course! My sister works at Marshalls, and they literally do take "crap"! At least monthly, they have to clean POOP out of the changing rooms -- people don't feel like taking their children to the bathroom, apparantly! uke

that said, I often go out of my way to smile at clerks & make eye contact so they know I am watching my ds & won't let him harm anything. I ask the clerks if he can play with the swipey machine & the grocery stores around me all have set-ups where it is okay until they are done ringing up the groceries.







And I always buy anything ds has slobbered on or damaged...it's sad that some parents ruin it for everyone who does take care of their children!


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

Quote:

Some of your posts just reiterate what I mean - those of you who work retail have demonstrated the attitudes I get from clerks exactly. When you see a kid getting a pillow dirty, then ask them mother to pay for it. If you see my child harmlessly carrying a bag of bread, then leave her alone. I'm trying to teach her responsiblility. I don't need the world getting in my way!
Padomi, I totally get what you're saying. But the reality is that even if you ask someone to pay for something that their child has destroyed, that doesn't mean that they will, or that they're even required to do so. Also, in a lot of places, an employee wouldn't be allowed to ask that a parent pay for an item that their child has destroyed, because it might be seen as bad customer service. I think that we can teach our children responsibility without letting them handle things in stores, especially items that we don't intend to purchase.

I worked part-time retail type jobs all through college to help pay my living expenses. My first job was in a movie theater. There was one woman who used to dump her 9 year old son off at our theater while she went out. Every time he was there, he ended up doing considerable damage...spreading nacho cheese on movie theater seats, throwing things at movie screens, etc. This kid cost us a fortune in repairs and maintenance, not to mention all of the refunds and free movie passes that we had to give to our other customers when he would run around and disturb people who were trying to watch movies. One night, he was throwing things at one of the movie screens. He ended up tearing one of the movie screens, and it cost several THOUSAND dollars to repair and clean it. We repeatedly told his mother that we were *not* there to babysit him, and she would roll her eyes and drop him off anyway. We finally told her that we would not allow him to come to the theater without an adult present. So she would buy two tickets, go into the movie with him, and sneak out an exit, leaving him alone to do whatver he wanted. He also pulled similar stunts at the grocery store upstairs, spilling things, doing damage, stealing, you name it. We would call the police, and every time they'd tell us that they couldn't do anything because he was a minor. The night that he destroyed the movie screen, one of the managers escorted him into the office, where he called the police and his mother. His mother came to pick him up and threatened to sue the theater for making him wait for her in the office instead of in the theater lobby.

I realize that this is extreme, but I'm sure that most people who've ever worked in any kind of retail/customer service type of position can tell you some kind of horror story like this, and that it's had an impact on the way they behave towards children in that setting.

To be perfectly honest, I'd react the same way to an adult or teenager if I thought that they were goofing off or were going to damage something. If anything, I'd probably be more inclined to speak more gently to a child than an adult.


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## padomi (Dec 28, 2002)

I know there are stupid parents out there who don't watch their kids - I encounter those too. And I'm sure working retail - especially in some of the bigger stores like Walmart - can be a real pain b/c you encounter some pretty nasty stuff. But it's the "assumed guilty" attitude I don't like. If my kid hurts whatever she's carrying around, I will buy it. Heck, if it will keep the next kid from getting fussed out, I'll buy every loaf of bread in the store! Maybe most parents aren't that responsible. But really, is Walmart going to experience a sudden drop in profits if you throw away a pillow? Even throw away a pillow every day? Pillow vs. child? You could probably burn down a Walmart in every city and the corporation wouldn't experience much loss (nor would the city it burned down in IMO! :LOL)

My point is that we live in a society where "things" are more important than children, and you run into that attitude everyday, and it's SAD SAD SAD.

We also as a society pay the price for that attitude - so many kids with so many problems. It doesn't have to be that way. Very sad.


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## mamagranola (Jun 6, 2004)

I'm sorry, but if my child was carrying a loaf of bread and a clerk told him/her to put it down, I would be totally offended. Sometimes I think this attitude just comes down to people assuming that parents in general are incompetent of raising their own children. Even some parents think that job is best left to the "professionals".

I don't like people I don't know attempting to parent my children. That goes for the store clerk who tells my child to put something back or not to ride in the back of the cart, the stranger in the store who tells my children (who are not being rowdy) to settle down or tells my crying toddler to "be good for Mommy".

I do think it takes a village to raise a child, but the truth of the matter is there are few villages in western culture. It would be different for someone outside my family to "correct" my children if they knew my children and had a relationship with them. If we lived in a small village where everyone knew everyone else and we were involved in the daily lives of one another this would be possible. But the truth is that hte old ladies in Wal-mart will never see my children again most likely and therefore their discipline is pretty much meaniongless, uneffective, and sometimes insulting.


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## A&A (Apr 5, 2004)

My 2 yo. loves to push electronic buttons, too! I've never had a clerk tell him not to, though.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I think part of the problem is that we are not exposed to children (because we are so child-unfriendly) so people have unrealistic expectations of them. Before I got married and had kids, I wasn't really crazy about kids. I found them noisy and annoying and I hated it when I got stuck next to them on an airplane or bus. But what did I know? I'd never been around kids much. Now that I know so much more about children, I can see them for what they are, and their own value and worth, and understand what is normal behavior, etc. So I think it's a vicious circle: you aren't around them, so you can't tolerate them, so you don't want to be around them....

As for the retail stories, I just HATE the way our society punishes everybody for the poor behaviour of the few. The lowest common denominator wins every time. I hated it when I was a responsible dog-owner, who always picked up after her dog, took the time and effort to fully train her both on-leash and off, but had to tie her up outside everywhere we went, got tickets for having her running off leash with me, and had to deal with other peoples' irrational phobias, etc....Now as a parent, it seems like the same thing (from what I'm reading here: I have to say that so far my experiences in stores have been pretty good). Because some irresponsible parents let their kids run rampant, don't pay attention, let their kids be disruptive and destructive, the rest of us have to suffer for it.







:


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I've worked in retail as a manager for years and years, and the only things I speak to children about is running in the store, spinning the rounders, and climbing into the window. I *do* speak about those behaviors because I've seen MANY children get hurt by running full speed into a steel fixture at eye level, or knocking a rounder down on top of themselves, or falling out of the display window over the ledge. So I do speak to them, and I will continue to speak to them. I get close to them, I get down on their level, I speak kindly and I tell them why I am concerned. I don't touch them, and if they do not cooperate than I ask their parent to come over please and lift them out of the window or whatever. But I don't say anything when I see their caregiver give them a peice of merchandise to cut their teeth on, or when I see them leaning over a pile of white shirts with an ice-cream cone, or bending a pair of sunglasses to the breaking point. I keep my mouth shut unless they are in danger, and I damage out the merchandise when they leave (which comes out of our personal store budget, btw, and affects our personal sale's bonuses.)

The other day some kids came into the store and I heard one of them say, "Oh look -- there's the no-running lady!" Even though I'm always careful to say "Walk please" instead of "no running." I've got a rep.

Oh, and piglet -- I have to say -- its not just "some parents" who let their children run amok in retail stores. Its a huge percentage of them. There is an attitude of treating store clerks as personal employees/servants -- and parents pass the attitude on to their kids. _"We're special here. We're customers -- we're entitled to trash the place if we want."_

I don't like the idea of people carrying around a loaf of bread they aren't going to buy. I always thought bread and produce was sort of like food off a party tray -- don't touch it until you are sure you are keeping it.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

We live in a capitalistic society. If you ever owned a business you would see the importance of profit. A $20 pillow adds up. One a week is 1040 per store. Times that by 10, 100 stores. Then all the other losses because of breaks. It adds up. It is MY PAY. IT IS MY HUSBAND'S PAY. It is our insurance benifits.

I talk to an elderly Russian woman (she is a bitter bitch and I hate her but that is another story) in some of my volunteering. She talks about how rotten American kids can be. She will tell you that American's don't know what suffering is and how pressious things are. I pondered this for a while last night.

Maybe if we were not in a land of over abundance we would see the importance of treating things nicely, esspecially things that someone else is going to buy. When there is not much bread or money for another loaf that bread becomes more precious. Because we have so much we don't seemly have to care about the little stuff, there is more and it is only a little profit. If we were in a country with less that 20 dollar pillow means a whole lot more to the business man and the customer would know that is his kids food.

Also not every company is as big or like Walmart. Many companies are struggling because of Walmarts policies.


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## Ione (Jul 22, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *padomi*
My point is that we live in a society where "things" are more important than children, and you run into that attitude everyday, and it's SAD SAD SAD.

IMHO, it would be more accurate to say that we live in a society where "things" are more important than *people*. And not just children, although admittedly children are lower down on the totem pole because they have less money (which also happens to equal fewer "things"), power and resources at thier disposal... so they often get the worst end of the deal.

I'm not quite sure how to express this next bit... hope I can be clear...

Sometimes, I suspect that the de-valuation of people compared to things (or the over-valuation of things compared to people) is at least partially the cause of a lot of the intollerance for "minor annoyances" and the attitude (which, BTW, shocks me every time I encounter it) that one has a "right" to never be "offended" by X or Y* that seem to be rife these days.

*Rude is rude, of course, and it would be nice if everyone were polite all the time, but I don't pretend that I have a "right" to receive politeness. It is my duty to BE polite, it may be the duty of others to be polite to me. It is not, however, my _right_ to have everyone I ever encounter be polite to me. If you see the difference?


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

Hmm, I guess I'm just lucky where I live (or maybe my kids are angels







) but I"ve never come across this attitude in stores.

Dds like to hold things in shops, but I dont let them carry food unless we're buying it, and if it's another item, I make it clear to them and to the clerk that we're putting it back. Often our conversation goes on a while, like "Mummy isn't buying that today, I dont have enough money. I know it's lovely, and maybe one day we can afford it, but we do need to put it back or give it to the lady now." And I'd never let them hold something they could get dirty or damage. With dd#1 its often something like a disposable camera at the checkout - I hate the way they have that stuff at child level to get the child to use their 'pester power' to make a parent buy it!

The sales people at our supermarket are really nice to my children. They know them and often talk to them, and give them things to hold.

As I say, either our salesclerks are angels here, or my children are!


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## Persephone (Apr 8, 2004)

I think it's not just child unfriendly, but family unfriendly. I think it stems back to that old Victorian notion that children should be seen and not heard. As if children should have perfect miniature adult behavior. It's just not reasonable to expect that. And I feel like losing our family values (when I say that, I mean valuing the family) is where most of our societal ills come from. I just finished reading the Continuum Concept, and she talks about how one's natural tendency is to do what is expected of you. Because you want to please your parents. So, if they expect you to be unruly, and anti social, then you're going to live up to it. I think society is expecting kids to behave badly, and then gets upset when they live up to those expectations. If we assumed that children are basically good, and treated them with that assumption, a lot of problems would be solved.


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## BunnysMomma (Dec 27, 2003)

My opinion on why society is so unfriendly to children is that it's because we have created a society in which children are irrelevant. Except for perpetuating the species, we don't "need" children for anything. Their primary purpose is decorative. Because they serve no useful function in society, they don't garner the respect that they should. People see them as impediments to daily life rather than assets and necessities.

I grew up in a culture in which children were absolute neccessities. Families without children, a lot of children, wouldn't survive. Although I suspect that a lot of people here wouldn't approve of the attitude that children "know their place," which my culture definitely espoused, the children raised in my culture were given a lot of respect, and people treated them as important people with important contributions to make and therefore didn't focus a lot of mental or physical energy on being annoyed by certain "childish" behaviors.

Wilma


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

on a positive note...

my family just got back from vacation. there's a bed & breakfast dh and i have stayed at 2x before dd came along. we love it and wanted to go back there, but weren't sure a 2-year-old would be welcome. they said we could bring her, but i was prepared for a cold reception from the people who run it or from other guests.

at breakfast the first morning we were asked if she'd like a breakfast burrito (what was being prepared for all the guests and had lots of peppers in it) or if she'd like something else. i was so happy that they were treating her like a special guest. they made her scrambled eggs and gave her a tortilla so she could make her own burrito if she wanted. they even offered to give her some cereal if she didn't want a hot breakfast. they went out of their way to welcome her. many b&bs even say "no children" which is fine. they're trying to create space for couples or individuals to have quiet w/o kids around. this place isn't a place that advertises itself as a "family b&b," but if you come with a kid they sure go out of their way to make the whole family feel welcomed. warmed my heart!!


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

You know what I want? I just want a stool in the bathroom so ds can wash his hands after he goes. I have a baby in the sling and I can't lift him up to wash his hands. Ikea is like the only place that has a stool in the bathroom. It's a $2 purchase and it would make life so much easier (and cleaner).


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

I agree with much of what's been said. It frustrates me also that we are often treated with the 'worst case scenario' or 'lowest denominator' in mind. And, I've also seen quite a few examples where families are judged much more than adults - the restaurant issue comes to mind. Personally, I've seen much worse behavior from adults in bars/restaurants than I have children.

And, yes, I agree that people seem to feel they deserve to be in public without any inconvenience yet don't want to contribute (people want their 'rights' without the 'responsibility').

As far as other people talking to my child - I don't have a problem with it and I'm even encouraging on some level. I want DC to learn to deal with all social situations and I figure the best way for her to get used to it is while I'm there to help her understand. I'm also the type to step in and guide another child - some of you would probably be offended by me







. The way I see it, it's better to be active in my community than complain and be frustrated - I'd rather take the risk of offending than the risk of totally alienating myself from my community. I actually see this contradiction ('it takes a village' / 'don't interact with MY child') to be a big source of this particualr problem.

That said I do make an effort to make some outward display of respect - in the style I think the people around me expect. I would not choose to allow my child to hold an item that is perceived to be damageable or dangerous if I must shop in a store with fussy people. Not that I think anyone should have to do this but I do find it makes life easier for me.

Also, I do think it's somewhat regional - even on a small scale. I can think of neighborhoods that are more child friendly and they're within 30 miles of each other. If I were you, I would actively search for shopping environments that are more friendly to your parenting style. It is those stores that need our support most.

And, the candy in the check-out&#8230;retailers, you'll probably be really bugged by this but I see it as free game. Okay, I don't actually let DC damage that stuff but she gets to look and touch all she wants. I think that particular sales tactic is totally rude&#8230;a reality I haven't totally accepted yet - even our "free-range" stores do it - makes me crazy.


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## padomi (Dec 28, 2002)

Quote:

I'm sorry, but if my child was carrying a loaf of bread and a clerk told him/her to put it down, I would be totally offended. Sometimes I think this attitude just comes down to people assuming that parents in general are incompetent of raising their own children. Even some parents think that job is best left to the "professionals". don't like people I don't know attempting to parent my children.
I agree 100%. Next time someone attempts to parent my child, I'm going to say "If you really want to help, I'm taking donations for her college!" People are always ready to dole out opinions and advice as long as it doesn't cost them anything.

Quote:

As for the retail stories, I just HATE the way our society punishes everybody for the poor behaviour of the few. The lowest common denominator wins every time.










Quote:

If you ever owned a business you would see the importance of profit.
I live in America. I'm full aware of the value and importance of profit. That's the point of this post. It's more important than a child's feelings in this society.

Quote:

Maybe if we were not in a land of over abundance we would see the importance of treating things nicely, esspecially things that someone else is going to buy. When there is not much bread or money for another loaf that bread becomes more precious.
My child is 2 years old, so no she doesn't understand the value of anything, but how am I going to teach her if she's not allowed to be trusted with anything?

You'll NEVER convince me that ANYTHING - not even a new car, a new house, NOTHING, is more important than any child in our society. If my child is damaging something, then I'll pay for it. But she has NEVER damaged anything in a store. And the next time a clerk says something to me, I"m going to say "No, you may not have it back. I'm allowing her to carry it. If it's damaged, I'll compensate you."

It might take a village, but I'm the mommy, and it's my choice.


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## cinnamonamon (May 2, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *padomi*
If my child is damaging something, then I'll pay for it. But she has NEVER damaged anything in a store. And the next time a clerk says something to me, I"m going to say "No, you may not have it back. I'm allowing her to carry it. If it's damaged, I'll compensate you."

It might take a village, but I'm the mommy, and it's my choice.

See, I think this would be the perfect response -- the whole reason retailers are prompted to make these requests is that many people DON'T compensate -- or offer to. Obviously I'm not talking about the rude retailers that just hate all children...

It sounds as if this thread is going the way of so many here at MDC -- the retailers are explaining that the "request" is difficult because of other, less caring/responsible parents, & MDC mammas are feeling as if they are being "punished." If this were a perfect world, the occasional dirty pillow wouldn't be a big loss -- but when the same family comes in weekly and allows their child to ruin a pillow every time (yes, my sister sees that sort of thing), they are forced to start suspecting every child who comes through their door.

For that reason, I go out of my way to make eye contact with clerks so they are aware I am watching my ds, I smile at them, and tend to say things like "you cannot chew on/squash etc. that item as mama would have to buy it, and we are not buyi
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that to
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## stillnominivan (Apr 16, 2002)

Wednesday I flew 6 hours with my 6 and 4 year old. They were fabulous on the flight but the woman behind us was pissed that they weren't silent and "shushed" us like 10 times because she was trying to sleep. Please lady! It was a mid-day flight and my kids were by no means being loud. I just ignored her and mentally "dared" her to say something.


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## jillywilson (Nov 21, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *padomi*
You'll NEVER convince me that ANYTHING - not even a new car, a new house, NOTHING, is more important than any child in our society.

Of course nothing is more important than a child. However, I think it is important to teach respect. I teach my girls to have respect for themselves, for others, and yes _things_. That's not to say I'm raising them to worship material possessions, but it is just a part of being respectful in general. That also doesn't mean I constantly hound them about "being careful" with everything either. I'm not suggesting that anyone here does this, but when people let their children recklessly run around at someone's house or place of business with a "kids will be kids" attitude, I think it shows a disrespect for the people around them. Damaging _things_ is also a waste and disrespectful to the earth. Gently teaching kids respect is not the same as demanding they obey.


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## mamawanabe (Nov 12, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *stillnominivan*
Wednesday I flew 6 hours with my 6 and 4 year old. They were fabulous on the flight but the woman behind us was pissed that they weren't silent and "shushed" us like 10 times because she was trying to sleep. Please lady! It was a mid-day flight and my kids were by no means being loud. I just ignored her and mentally "dared" her to say something.

Airplanes drive me crazy!!! When half the people on a plane are trying to sleep (even in the daytime; most travelers have not gotten a a full night sleep) why do people think it appropriate to talk so friggen loud?! I've never shushed anyone on a plane (I did in a movie once though) cause I'm too timid, but I've mentally shot bad feelings in thier direction







. Mostly it is adults







: . Once a two year old on an early morning flight sat in front of me and made very loud noices (not crying - I totally undertsand crying) and the mom did nothing towards teaching (even trying to teach her) about inside voices or other people







:

I don't think the child/adult distinction makes any difference - people (children and adults) are inconsiderate to those around them, though we can excuse kids for it because they might not know yet. I really think most of the "correction" that our kids face is really focused on the parent. The clerk is not saying "don't play with that," s/he is saying "don't let your child play with that" but is too chicken to do say it directly. Perhaps some of our anger at our kids being talked to this way has to do with this implicite criticism of our parenting.

I'm not coming down on either side of this debate; really, it is pretty complicated (as is the kids in restaraunt thread and the kids playing with shore bells thread), more complicated than just "our society doesn't tolderate kids" - though there is some truth to that.


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## Evan&Anna's_Mom (Jun 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *phathui5*
You know what I want? I just want a stool in the bathroom so ds can wash his hands after he goes. I have a baby in the sling and I can't lift him up to wash his hands. Ikea is like the only place that has a stool in the bathroom. It's a $2 purchase and it would make life so much easier (and cleaner).

And a changing table anywhere that is open to the public. That way I wouldn't have to change my daughter's diaper on the floor of ther restroom. I keep thinking that I'd like to start a crusade for a new law on this one!


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## aprildawn (Apr 1, 2004)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Evan&Anna's_Mom*
And a changing table anywhere that is open to the public. That way I wouldn't have to change my daughter's diaper on the floor of ther restroom. I keep thinking that I'd like to start a crusade for a new law on this one!

*Amen!*


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## fizzymom (Nov 20, 2001)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mpeel*
Do you know how much my kids would LOVE the symphony or ballet. But neither can go.

For those who are interested, many symphonies, dance companies, theater companies, opera companies have open rehersals that are perfect for kids. Sometimes there is a small charge, but they are usually during the day when small children are more likely to be able to enjoy it (not too tired). In my experience, the director will often explain some of what is going on and the house lights are usually on so it is easier attend to the kids needs (for the parents).

But, back to the topic at hand, my personal fave is going to a restaurant and being seated next to someone who groans, "Oh, MAN!" loudly as we are sitting down--- For crying in a bucket! At least wait until my kids actually DO something!! Who knows they might actually surprise ya.


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## frand (May 8, 2004)

There's so much in here I agree with. I've had wonderful waitresses who made dining out with my daughter totally special, and I've had awful ones. We went to a live musical performance at our library and my daughter and her friend were dancing on the sidelines and a verrry verrry old woman clutched her arm like a hawk and hissed at her to sit down. My daughter was shocked, as was I, and then her face turned furious and she shrieked to the old woman, "You should be put in JAIL!"

As for airplanes, here in Chicago we had a major newspaper columnist write a column about how she routinely gives her two daughters allergy medication when she travels to make them sleep as a 'courtesy' to the other passengers on the plane. She was basically writing that this was a tee hee little 'secret' among her well-traveled sisters. I was outraged and wrote her an email suggesting she could actually interact with her children instead of drugging them. She was so blase about the whole thing, very sarcastic in her response. I think this is the vicious circle of our demographically segmented society. People choose to be and get used to being with others like themselves. Businesseople with other businesspeople, moms with other moms, singles with singles, seniors with seniors, etc. If you're not a parent, you are typically not used to being around children and have no understanding of or patience with their way of being in the world.

I think the best we can do is stand up for our children's rights, show people by our own example how to interact with them meaningfully and respectfully (and treat other children that way too) and take responsibility if our children do cause any damage. The one time my daughter broke something was in Starbucks and it was my fault, I wasn't as close to her as I should have been. They could not have been nicer, they just swept it up and altho I tried they wouldn't let me pay for it!


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Quote:

My child is 2 years old, so no she doesn't understand the value of anything, but how am I going to teach her if she's not allowed to be trusted with anything?
I teach/tought my children respect and value of things by letting them be responcible with things that belong to them/us not others. Once they can be trusted with our own things then we work on others. I took time to explain to them and show them how to do things gentlely.

I taught them that does not belong to us so we need to treat it extra special and/or leave it alone.

In our home you pull something off you put it back were you got it. The same should go in stores (other homes). We don't add to others work. When you leave things around the store/cash registers you add to their work.

Ya'll complain about the stores being unfriendly (and there are some that are that way. I won't go into airplan/mass transit) but you forgot some basics on taking your children out. Being prepared to help fight boredom. Bring them own things to eat, carry, et. How child friendly is it when after they have carried something around the store and you then don't buy it? That can set up some great disappointments I see it everyday I work.

In our home every one has accidents every one makes mistakes. When we do this we try to fix it. How do we fix something we messed up in the store that we don't have the money for? A two year old cannot understand "working it off" if I do have the money.

In our home if we borrow something we return it in the same condition or better than we recieved it in. If we don't think we can do this or understand this then we don't borrow it. We treat library books extra gentle because others want to borrow it and it does not belong to us. (Library books are a good way teach responciblity).

I teach my children that some people are unreasonable and we ignore those type of people.

I try teach that we concider others before we do our own actions. Like with our neighbor that is a police officer. He works nights (an odd shift actually) a lot. He lets us know so we can keep the kids in/quite until noon. If they are screaming I asked them how would they fell if they were woke up by hearing that. He has made a resonable request. My children learned this being respectful to others because we had a neighbor's dog that would bark all day and night long. They felt sorry for this dog because it was not getting attention and they were bothered because the people didn't care it kept everyone else awake. We have had unreasonable request about the kids not walking in yards, we have no sidewalks. I told them this was not safe but also taught them to walk closer to the street so we don't invade their privacy or run through their flowers. We only look at their flowers with our eyes.

*********Please understand I do think the bread situation was/is wrong. Put many other products it boils down to IT IS NOT YOURS. When these things get ruin it can lower the workers' pay/raise and increase your cost. We had a family that ruined $500 dollars worth of pictures and crystal last night. The mother allowed her child to push her other child in a stroller through this breakable department. With all our other damage we will most likely not get a raise. My husband works two jobs. From October 03 to August 04 I have had to work full time. I am cutting down to only two days a week. We need any raise I/we can get. We are not rich people we have one car. My husband has had to work two jobs for the last 7 years to keep us feed, clothed, and housed modestly.

Broken product is a matter of food on my table and clothes on my kids back. How child friendly are you when dont' take care of stores products? (actually others because it sounds like people here are responcible). People that work retail often don't make a lot of money. How child friendly is it to MY CHILD when I have to tell them we cannot do something because I did not get a raise because to much product was broken.


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## IdentityCrisisMama (May 12, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *fizzymom*
For those who are interested, many symphonies, dance companies, theater companies, opera companies have open rehersals that are perfect for kids. Sometimes there is a small charge, but they are usually during the day when small children are more likely to be able to enjoy it (not too tired). In my experience, the director will often explain some of what is going on and the house lights are usually on so it is easier attend to the kids needs (for the parents).

Fantastic tip! Thank you.


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## mamaduck (Mar 6, 2002)

I understand Marsupialmom. For me -- its my comission. Too many damages -- its taken from my sales figures. No bonus check. This affects my kids. Its like not tipping a waitress.


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

Quote:

I worked part-time retail type jobs all through college to help pay my living expenses. My first job was in a movie theater. There was one woman who used to dump her 9 year old son off at our theater while she went out. Every time he was there, he ended up doing considerable damage...spreading nacho cheese on movie theater seats, throwing things at movie screens, etc. This kid cost us a fortune in repairs and maintenance, not to mention all of the refunds and free movie passes that we had to give to our other customers when he would run around and disturb people who were trying to watch movies. One night, he was throwing things at one of the movie screens. He ended up tearing one of the movie screens, and it cost several THOUSAND dollars to repair and clean it. We repeatedly told his mother that we were *not* there to babysit him, and she would roll her eyes and drop him off anyway. We finally told her that we would not allow him to come to the theater without an adult present. So she would buy two tickets, go into the movie with him, and sneak out an exit, leaving him alone to do whatver he wanted. He also pulled similar stunts at the grocery store upstairs, spilling things, doing damage, stealing, you name it. We would call the police, and every time they'd tell us that they couldn't do anything because he was a minor. The night that he destroyed the movie screen, one of the managers escorted him into the office, where he called the police and his mother. His mother came to pick him up and threatened to sue the theater for making him wait for her in the office instead of in the theater lobby.
I don't understand something about this situation. The police were okay with the concept of a 9 year old left completely alone in a public place?

Why didn't they arrest this woman for child abandonment?

They couldn't do anything because "he was a minor"? bull cookies!!! They could have and IMO should have arrested him, as a juvenile, for vandalism and whatever other charges might have applied.

Now that that's out of the way...I agree that too many places go out of their way to be ugly towards children, but as has been too often seen as well, some parents just ignore the concepts of teaching their children any kind of respect for others or the property of others', which then makes it harder on those of us who do and don't like being treated as if we're the irresponsible types.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

MarsupialMom, I thought that last post of yours was really great. I always make sure to bring snacks, sippy cups, and a few fun items with me when I take DD to the store. The only things she is allowed to have in the store are the free samples they give out, and occasionally I'll buy a muffin from the deli and let her eat it while we shop (if I've been "bad" and run out of snacks), and of course I always have the cashier ring it up. But I would not let my child handle products that I am not intending to buy, partly b/c I think it sets a bad precedent, but also b/c it will make her even more unhappy to have to part with it before we leave.


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## FullCream (Mar 24, 2004)

While I agree that there are many parents who DON'T parent their children adequately in public places, I do agree that children are not treated with respect or fairness. I have seen, and been affected by, the apalling behaviour of other adults far more frequently than out-of-control children. Adults can damage stuff and steal stuff and hurt people and offend people. They can be loud and messy and scary. But if a child is even SUSPECTED of doing any or all of the above, adults seem to come down on them like a tonne of bricks. And yes, the criticism is really for the parent, not the child - 'how dare you let your child do that!'.

We set things up in a way that makes it difficult for children to behave well. Think about what it's like in the supermarket or shopping mall: bright lights, loud noises, lots of people, interesting stuff that can be easily touched, everyone in a hurry...Adults find it difficult to stay calm. But if our children show any signs of losing it, then they're (we're) berated and criticised and punished.

If we want our children to have good self-esteem, not only do we (the parents) need to treat them with respect and as valued individuals, so does our society. When our society treats them with disdain and loathing, of course that affects their psyches - and their behaviour.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Frand wrote:

Quote:

We went to a live musical performance at our library and my daughter and her friend were dancing on the sidelines and a verrry verrry old woman clutched her arm like a hawk and hissed at her to sit down. My daughter was shocked, as was I, and then her face turned furious and she shrieked to the old woman, "You should be put in JAIL!"
The old woman's behavior was inappropriate. So was your daughter's reaction. Did you tell her so?

We do not shriek in the library. We do not shriek during live musical performances. We do not shriek at other people, even if they are being rude, unless they are doing serious and immediate harm. I don't see anything wrong with teaching all of those concepts from birth. Of course, it will take several years for them to sink in completely, but that's no excuse for not trying. (I'm not saying you DIDN'T try...you didn't indicate what you thought of your daughter's reaction, at all.)

ITA with those who have pointed out similarities between how children are treated and how people in general are treated in public. While it's often worse for children, we all suffer from this "lowest common denominator" treatment by various institutions and the general public. Examples: Many fast-food restaurants will not allow you to refuse a plastic lid on your beverage because they insist that you will spill it. If a stranger is sitting next to me on the city bus and another seat becomes vacant, often the person will leap up and move to that seat--not because I am doing anything offensive, but because he/she believes that being that close to a stranger is inherently offensive and can be endured only as long as there is no possibility of sitting alone. I've been to several stores with the policy that no customer (of any age, race, etc.) is allowed to carry around merchandise; if you decide you want a shirt and take it off the rack, a salesperson appears at your elbow and says, "I'll take that up to the counter for you." I understand that everyone has had bad experiences upon which these things are based. It just makes me sad that they feel those experiences are the rule rather than the exception--and even more sad that, in some cases, they're right.


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## Hey Mama! (Dec 27, 2003)

I've been pondering this issue lately myself. I recently flew 10 hour flights with my two dd's, by myself. The flight out I had a family with teens sit in front of us and the teens said, "those babies better not cry!" It was a night flight and they wanted to sleep. Thankfully they ended up moving to some empty seats away from us. My kids hadn't even uttered a peep and already the hatefulness was beginning. On the way back, there was a dink couple in front of us, and they were giving me attitude as well. Ainsley was doing normal two year old stuff, like asking when we could get off the plane, sometimes getting loud because she was bored, kicking the seat (which I told her time after time to quit) and the guy was getting so mad! But, at the end of the flight I had several people come up to me and compliment me on how well behaved my girls had been and the dinks heard it all-it was sweet!

I hate that I feel like the general public expects me to be on my kids ass all the time.


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## PoppyMama (Jul 1, 2004)

I try to keep my children from being annoying- not always successful. But people just seem to find children an unnecessary nuisance. We were having a discussion on a nursing message board about children who are brought into the ER with a sick/injured parent/sibling. People were so hostile. One woman said that other peoples children are like second hand smoke and many agreed with her and didn't think she was being out of line.


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## Kinipela79 (Apr 8, 2003)

Quote:

One woman said that other peoples children are like second hand smoke and many agreed with her and didn't think she was being out of line.
What a sad way to think.


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## frand (May 8, 2004)

Envirobecca -- My daughter was 4 at the time and had recently heard the word jail and asked me a lot of questions about what it was. When this woman grabbed her, she was a total stranger and she did it in a very angry way, she put her face so close to Rene's she got spit on her. It was in anger -- that's why I (and everyone around me) was shocked. I never imagined anyone would feel they could touch my child in that way. It was way inappropriate and out of proportion. It was a family performance so there were a number of other children there dancing and singing around the room. I basically took my daughter out in the hall to calm her down and then we left. I did explain to her that what the woman did was not jail-worthy. But I was actually VERY GLAD that she yelled and defended herself when a stranger grabbed her instead of being intimidated.


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## littleaugustbaby (Jun 27, 2003)

Quote:

The old woman's behavior was inappropriate. So was your daughter's reaction. Did you tell her so?

We do not shriek in the library. We do not shriek during live musical performances. We do not shriek at other people, even if they are being rude, unless they are doing serious and immediate harm. I don't see anything wrong with teaching all of those concepts from birth. Of course, it will take several years for them to sink in completely, but that's no excuse for not trying. (I'm not saying you DIDN'T try...you didn't indicate what you thought of your daughter's reaction, at all.)
I'm sorry, but I don't think that her daughter's reaction was inappropriate. No, we don't shriek at people, but we most definitely do NOT grab people, especially young children. Regardless of where my child is, if someone were to grab her, I'd much rather that she cry out and yell than be hurt, or worse. What if the woman had grabbed her arm and tried to carry her off? IMO, there are times when it's OK to break the "rules", and this was most definitely one of those times. Touching a child that you don't know, especially in a violent manner is COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE. It is NEVER OK.


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## DesireeH (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:

Ya'll complain about the stores being unfriendly (and there are some that are that way. I won't go into airplan/mass transit) but you forgot some basics on taking your children out. Being prepared to help fight boredom. Bring them own things to eat, carry, et. How child friendly is it when after they have carried something around the store and you then don't buy it? That can set up some great disappointments I see it everyday I work.
I agree with this. I bring snacks/sippy and his favorite toy motorcycle in my purse. That way he can do whatever he wants to it because it belongs to him. I am another mama that used to be in retail and you wouldnt believe what some people let their children do (pee in the garbage can in the dressing room!). I have had to tell children to get down off the ladders, etc etc. They can fall off and get hurt (hence the big chain across it to keep people off of it). Sure they may have thought "my child knows how to go up and down stairs" but all it takes is a little missed step and off goes the child. (Oh ya, and we got sued by someone who fell off, even though I had clearly said to STAY OFF). Kids used to go and jump on the display beds with their dirty shoes and we had to do a chargeback and the item was no longer sellable. I also teach Jevin that things in a store are too be respected because they do not belong to us. I always let him push the ATM card buttons though, it helps him learn his colors. I always tell him "push the green button, or push the red one" The clerks are always really nice about it too. It is sad though that everything is ruined because of a few bad parents.

I would love to see some more child friendly places though, restaurants are one of them. I really like Mimi's Cafe, they cater nicely to kids. As soon as you get there they bring them a plate with orange slices, cheerios, and colors. I always thought that was nice.

I wish there were more child friendly activities. I wanted to volunteer somewhere and have him help me so he learns early on about helping people but I cant find anywhere that will allow him to volunteer with me. I also want to take some more painting lessons and it would be so awesome if he could come (I would pay for his supplies of course). Things like that would be really fun. Maybe I should open a place with mama/child activities or something! LOL


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## DesireeH (Mar 22, 2003)

Quote:

I'm sorry, but I don't think that her daughter's reaction was inappropriate. No, we don't shriek at people, but we most definitely do NOT grab people, especially young children. Regardless of where my child is, if someone were to grab her, I'd much rather that she cry out and yell than be hurt, or worse. What if the woman had grabbed her arm and tried to carry her off? IMO, there are times when it's OK to break the "rules", and this was most definitely one of those times. Touching a child that you don't know, especially in a violent manner is COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE. It is NEVER OK.
Oh yes, I wanted to say I agree with this. I am going to teach Jevin that if a stranger ever grabs him to scream really loud. It is NOT okay for strangers to put their hands on my kids. If they scream, good.


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## EnviroBecca (Jun 5, 2002)

Frand, now that you've explained more about the situation, I think you handled it appropriately. If someone grabs a person in such a way that it FEELS LIKE physical harm is about to be done, a shriek is an understandable response. For a small child in a public place who is GRABBED by a stranger (not just "touched" or "put hands on") it is actually a good healthy reaction. But it was also good to explain to your daughter that what the woman actually did was not something for which she should be put in jail.


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## frand (May 8, 2004)

Thanks all


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## levar (Jan 28, 2002)

I dont think our society [USA] is *too* child un-friendly. There are a TON of child friendly things to do. Chuck E Cheese. McDonalds. Six Flags. Disneyland. Toy Stores. Playgrounds. Zoo. Aquarium. Children's Museum. National Parks. Skate Parks. Climb Gyms. Etc. It seems to me more like a child-heaven sometimes.

AND there are a TON of things that I like to do as an adult and get very upset if a baby, toddler, kid, etc is behaving "childishly." For example when I spend $100 at a fine-dining restraunt like Chez Pannise, I *expect* a certain level of service and ambiance. Same for $200 seats at the Opera. If I pay for a VIP ticket to a ball game, I expect to be able to eat and drink and watch the game in peace without a child bumping into me, screaming in my ear, etc. And honestly, I cant count how many times I have been on a red-eye LA to NY and PRAYING that I do NOT get sat next to the crying baby, kicking toddler, "rockin-out" kid, etc.

Basically, I think common curtesy (and expectation) applies to everyone, whether dining at Chuck E Cheese or Chez Pannise.


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## andi_3k (Oct 22, 2002)

About the kicking of the seat thing...I can feel for the guy, and I can feel for you and for your kid, but I have to tell you that I would have been complaining to the flight attendants, really quickly. I have a serious kidney condition and that kind of activity would have put me in excruciating pain. When I book a flight I try to book the back most seat so there will be no one behind me....but I have been re-seated or bumped to a different flight where i couldn't have that seat and had kids kicking my seat....by the first 10 min I was in tears, and made them move me....child-unfriendly? maybe but I have the right to be left alone/ not harmed as much as a kid has the right to be respected.
Many folks are Child unfriendly because of the Attitudes of parents, many of them have the attitude of "my kid has rights,so &%$# &$#!" doesn't matter what the kid is doing, don't matter who or what they are harming it's all about the kids rights. And while you've all said you controll your kids, many, many don't and others force them into situations that are designed and advertised for "adult only" particpation.... a resort my room mate used to go to advertises "adult only sessions" but 4 of the 5 years she has gone there were kids in her classes, when she complained about this, she was given attitude even tho' she was not given what she paid for ( there are two kids only sessions, and two mixed sessions also) this year she has been told never to come back if she expects to not have kids in the adult only sessions....another friend of mine works promoting a band...because the band in question is just breaking into the US market the shows are often held in bars. You would not beleive the emails she gets from parents because the bar shows are billed as 21 and over! Many of the parents think that the bars should stop selling alcohol so their kids can attend, and many more say they want "no course language" around their kids....It's a bar for pete's sake, selling alcohol is what they do, and corse language is bound to happen,but everyone is supposed to stop and revolve around the kids. Other things that go on that I have seen is parents getting to a show late and then trying to force the folks who got there first to move out, because" the kids have the right to be there", parents trying to force people on the ferries to give up seats in the front for the same reason,even tho staff had told them that there were plenty of seats on the upper deck in front, parents bringing kids in to a home without children and expecting the homeowner to 'get over it and adjust"
I no longer have kids....the one I raised is 21, I am no longer used to little kid noises, their phrentic pace or so much of what kids need/want to make them happy, my house is no longer child proofed and has many things in it that are not child friendly.... call me child unfriendly if you want but I have recently banned kids from my house.....I spend over 12 hours a day at my nephew's taking care of them while their dad works my down time is my down time and my home is my home, not theirs. I can understand parents wanting the world to be understanding of their kids, but understanding needs to go both ways.....those of us with out kids in our homes ( or of own) should be respected, too, maybe if more folks like me saw more parents like you all we would be less child unfriendly.

Alot of your examples had my hair on edge and my teeth grinding...I think I would have had a few words for the biddy who grabbed someone's daughter.








As for holding stuff in the store, many stores I worked at budgeted for that, and it was no big deal, other stores don't.
I think the stool in the bathroom is a great idea! Lower sinks are too, but that's just me.


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## andi_3k (Oct 22, 2002)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpeel:
Do you know how much my kids would LOVE the symphony or ballet. But neither can go.
Does your city have a theatre of youth company? Their productions are wonderful and a great way to intorduce kids to ballet,ect....also try matinee's usually those are more kid friendly. Call the theatre and see if they are having a day when school groups are going to see the preformance, see if you can bring your kids then.

One of the neatest things I have ever seen was when a friend of mine took me to see a band called the "Barra MacNeils" ...the band actually asks for kids to come up and dance in the aisles! Many of them got worn out and went and settled next to mom and dad but many danced throughtout the show. Apparently this is the norm at their shows. Just another idea for those who are into celtic-rock type music.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

I can see both sides of the coin.

I have one friend who's kids are totally out of control. She lets her 4 yo. scale the scaffolding at the Home Depot and can't believe that the employees actually tell her child to get down







This same child got one of those pretend-baby strollers down at the toy store and got inside it (she's a really big 4 yo.) and a friendly employee came over and asked very nicely if she could put it back. The girl jumped out of her seat, screamed at the man, saying "YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!!!" and her mom said, "Yes, that's right honey, he CAN'T tell you what to do, you don't have to put it back" so she continued to play with the stroller.

There are some people who have no tolerance for kids, and that sucks. And there are moms who refuse to teach respect to their kids, and that sucks, too. It goes both ways.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Quote:

About the kicking of the seat thing...I can feel for the guy, and I can feel for you and for your kid, but I have to tell you that I would have been complaining to the flight attendants, really quickly. I have a serious kidney condition and that kind of activity would have put me in excruciating pain
I dont have a serious kidney condition, nor a back condition, or any other condition that would make it not ok for a kid to kick my seat. But i'll tell you what, i would be on my bell so fast....there is nothing worse than a kid kicking the back of your seat on an aircraft for any length of time. Tell your kid *No*, I do.

Quote:

There are some people who have no tolerance for kids, and that sucks. And there are moms who refuse to teach respect to their kids, and that sucks, too. It goes both ways
ITA.


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## Hey Mama! (Dec 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *sweetbaby3*
I dont have a serious kidney condition, nor a back condition, or any other condition that would make it not ok for a kid to kick my seat. But i'll tell you what, i would be on my bell so fast....there is nothing worse than a kid kicking the back of your seat on an aircraft for any length of time. Tell your kid *No*, I do.

ITA.

For the record, I did not idly sit by while she kicked the seat back, nor did she do it during the whole 11 hour flight. I did tell her no, and would then get out yet another activity for her to do, or take her to the bathroom, or hold her legs if I needed to. Don't assume I was doing nothing.


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## Lucky Charm (Nov 8, 2002)

Brandi, I was replying in a more general way, not necessarily to your post. I see now that the person I quoted was referring to your post.

I am sorry if i came across as slamming you, it was *not* my intent









That said, in general, many parents don't do much about their kicking kids. I fly all the time with my three, and because i myself cant stand kids kicking the back of my seat, i make sure mine don't. No means no. I am all for respecting kids, but kids need to return that respect. But this also spills over into eating out at restaraunts, going to the movies, etc.


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## Hey Mama! (Dec 27, 2003)

Sweetbaby, thanks for clearing it up.


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## LittleYellow (Jul 22, 2004)

I work in a childrens museum where you would expect an extremely child-friendly environment, but it's not always the case even here. Some museums are better than others, but this one is the worst I've seen for this.

The staff here is always telling the children 'no' in what seems purely to be for the adults feeling of power over others. While there are many instances of 'no' here the fountain is where I see it at it's worst. (If you know what musuem this is after my story, please don't share it on the board KWIM?)

While many childrens musuems have water that children CAN play with, here we have a fountain where they CAN'T touch the water. This whole concept at a CHILDRENS MUSEUM makes no sense to me - but what's even worse is how most of the staff responds to this arbitrary rule.

When kids go up to the fountain (a trickle of water from a center fountain falling into a small square pool of water about 5 inches deep) they are OF COURSE drawn to it and often will put their hands in. Most of the staff will, at this point, YELL at the child from across the room "Don't touch the fountain!!!!" (even when the parent is right there with them while they explore the fountain). Some kids are scared when this happens, some kids ignore the yeller (good for them) but only once have I seen anyone question the yeller - a kid said to the yeller "Why, I don't see a sign?" (this is just the kind of kid I hope to raise if all this TTC works out).

When I am near the fountain, first I will watch the kids at the fountain and if they are young and with a parent or older and are focused in thier exploration I will leave them be!! If a younger child is there and the parent isn't watching I will go over and be with the child, talk about the fountain or just watch them explore - if they are highly energetic and could fall in or hurt someone else, I try and redirect them to an activity where they can be just as energetic with less chance of injury. Even when older children are highly exubarent with the fountain, I don't say 'no' or 'don't' etc because there is nothing inherently wrong in what they are doing. It is fun to splash water! I just ask them if they could please play gentler because they could get water on the floor an cause someone to slip.

If I'm being watched by someone who insists on slavishly following the rule (who would yell at the kid if I took no action at all and then yell at me for not yelling at the kid), I still try and treat each kid as respsectfully as possible by walking up to them and telling them "hi, did you know that this fountain is for looking and listening and wishing?" which will often lead to good discussion of the fountain.

Fortunately I've worked in museums where the staff is very interested in child development and creating a respectful, individualised learning environment for kids. At this museum the staff is either interested in congratulating themselfs ("we got an award!!", "we've partnered with blah, blah blah organization"), or keeping kids in line ("these kids are so bad", "why do they use the exhibit in ways it's not designed?"). They have moved so far, far, far away from creating a learning environment for kids that I really don't know where they are. I think however that they are creating a great environment for corporations to get thier hooks into kids in ever widening ways. A quote from a staff member here was "Coke is going to partner with us on xyz and they are soooo excited about it!" Well duh - Coke would love to partner up with a Childrens Museum - lets advertise to them everywhere we can. GRRRRRRRRRR

So for those of you who question the people who are not respectful to your children or who start with an assumption that children are 'bad' - keep it up!!!!! Tell them you don't want your child yelled at, tell them you have the situation under control!!!! The people that I work with need to know that parents won't accept thier children treated disrespectfully and as a blanket group. I would be thrilled if a parent told a staff yelling at their kid not to yell at them!!!!!!!


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## Ynez (May 24, 2003)

LittleYellow said:


> A quote from a staff member here was "Coke is going to partner with us on xyz and they are soooo excited about it!" Well duh - Coke would love to partner up with a Childrens Museum - lets advertise to them everywhere we can. GRRRRRRRRRR QUOTE]
> 
> Talk about child unfriendly -- let's get them hooked on sugar and caffine early!
> 
> ...


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