# The Obesity Myth



## muse (Apr 17, 2002)

I recently read this extract from an upcoming book titled The Obesity Myth. A couple of choice quotes:

"If one were forced to come up with a six-word explanation for the otherwise inexplicable ferocity of America's war on fat, it would be this: Americans think being fat is disgusting. Fifty years ago, America was full of people that the social elites could look upon with something approaching open disgust: blacks in particular, of course, but also other ethnic minorities, the poor, women, Jews, homosexuals, and so on. Nowadays, a new target is required."

"The single most noxious line of argument in the literature about obesity is that black and Hispanic girls and women need to be "sensitized" to the "fact" that they have innapropriately positive feelings about their bodies."


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

What are they trying to say with that second quote?

What's wrong with girls of any race feeling good about themselves and their bodies? It's when you feel good about yourself that you can then take positive steps to be even healthier. At least that's how it worked for me. A strong sense of self and self-esteem gives me the strength to stick with the weightloss program because by golly I'm worth it!









Making these or any other girls depressed about how they are will only lead to unhealthy behaviors, whether comfort overeating or anorexic. Hardly the goal IMO.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

That was like a breath of fresh air. Thank you. This obsession with fat and dieting and thin and "healthy" makes me want to scream. There are so few resources for people who aren't buying it (literally aren't buying it-- the weight loss industry is a multi-billion dollar a year industry in the US) are few and far between.

Here are some more--

http://www.bigfatblog.com/
http://showmethedata.info/

Weight loss is big business and little more. No one discusses the impact on rapid weight loss followed by rapid weight gain when the talk about the problems associated with obesity. Well, except Paul Campos.

I'll be buying this book for myself and about ten more copies for my friends.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Sigh.

Meiri-- Did you read the article?


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## Arduinna (May 30, 2002)

bummer the link didn't work for me.

anyway, great post muse ITA. and it that was perfectly clear from a recent thread we had here also.

now fat people are the new evil, especially in the "natural health" " environmental commuity"


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## mahdokht (Dec 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *muse*
I recently read this extract from an upcoming book titled The Obesity Myth. A couple of choice quotes:

"If one were forced to come up with a six-word explanation for the otherwise inexplicable ferocity of America's war on fat, it would be this: Americans think being fat is disgusting. Fifty years ago, America was full of people that the social elites could look upon with something approaching open disgust: blacks in particular, of course, but also other ethnic minorities, the poor, women, Jews, homosexuals, and so on. Nowadays, a new target is required."

"The single most noxious line of argument in the literature about obesity is that black and Hispanic girls and women need to be "sensitized" to the "fact" that they have innapropriately positive feelings about their bodies."

You know what I think is really ridiculous. Every group thinks that they are the "new" group who it is safe to be prejudiced or racist against.Fat people, Arabs, Muslims etc. You know what there is no NEW group because its STILL safe to be racist against Af. Americans, Jews, Asians etc. I mean look at the Abercrombie and Fitch controversies over their racist (anti-Asian) T-shirts, those shirts went for big money on Ebay and lots of people continued to purchase their goods. It is still safe to be prejudice against the poor, our leading politicians make deragatory remarks about them ALL the time. I think many of the GLBT people on this board would argue strongly that prejudice against them has not gone anywhere. Claims that there is only one group left and it is safe to be prejudice against them are superfluous and ignore the very real fact that racism and prejudice are still ingrained parts of our society, they haven't gone anywhere.

As far as the second quote, it's dead on. After I finish the current stack of books I have to read, I plan to start reading some books on fatphobia and prejudice against fat people.


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## merpk (Dec 19, 2001)

Okay. Taking a deep breath (& not so easy to do with little feet sticking up in your ribs :LOL)

Quote:

_*... from the link*
... This is a culture whose need to control the world and the people in it is so intense that it has been driven to the preposterous conclusion that millions of unique individuals should all weigh within 10lb of an imaginary ideal weight ..._
Was agreeing with much of his argument until I read this. Then thought, how sad it was that a reasonable discussion of a real issue has to get derailed by an obsessively anti-American rant. Just because the US Surgeon General makes dire predictions regarding expanding waistlines and American health, this guy translates it into an imperialist plot to control the world and the people in it?

















:

Okay, that rant out of the way ... :LOL

Very sensible, IMO. Though it seems to me that he's looking at it as all very black&white. 20 or 30 lbs here and there doesn't seem to make any difference, sure, except in the vanity department ... but once you get in the range of 50 lbs (where I have spent a good part of the last 5 years







) it makes a huge difference. In quality of life, first and foremost. It sounds from the article as if he thinks the whole topic is a waste of effort.

Of course, he's coming from England, which has a much lower rate of obesity among the population ... or is it just that this link is from an English publication?

Rambling. Feeling particularly heavy today ... but then again, at 39 weeks, so would Jennifer Aniston :LOL ...

PS - mahdokht, you are the anti-'ism' superwoman lately!! You go, girl ...







... you are absolutely positively on a roll ...









(just leave the butter off that roll ... :LOL







:














)


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## jeyer (Oct 27, 2003)

Hmmmm. I just read that excerpt and I'm not sure what to think. My first thought is that he totally ignores the two very unhealthy reasons Americans are becoming fatter... lack of exercise and high-calorie, nutritionally-devoid foods loaded with high-fructose corn syrup.

Putting aside the conflicting studies, that alone is enough to tell me that collectively, the weight gain in our country is not a healthy thing.

True, some people who are overweight have healthy diets, get exercise, etc. But I don't think this is true for the vast majority.

And yes, crash dieting probably does have negative health consequences, but gradual weight loss is what the experts preach, isn't it?


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeyer*
Hmmmm. I just read that excerpt and I'm not sure what to think. My first thought is that he totally ignores the two very unhealthy reasons Americans are becoming fatter... lack of exercise and high-calorie, nutritionally-devoid foods loaded with high-fructose corn syrup.

This article talks about the fire that fast food restaurants have come under recently for causing this "fat epidemic". Fat people don't eat any differently than thin people.

_Blaming fast food, or any food, thinly veils a condemnation of fat people as gluttons. "There is very little evidence that fat people eat more fast food than thin people," said Paul Ernsberger, Ph.D., associate professor of Medicine, Pharmacology and Neuroscience, Case Western Reserve School of Medicine. In fact, "most people eating fast food are thin... Marketing studies show that the typical frequent fast food buyer is a young single male, a relatively thin demographic group. Middle aged women are the fattest demographic and eat little fast food. Most obese people are dieters. Dieters do not eat fast food very often," he said._

http://www.techcentralstation.com/102203C.html


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## jeyer (Oct 27, 2003)

But the problem isn't just fast food. It's cookies, crackers, packaged food, fruit juice, soda, and on and on.

And yes, there are some people who can eat horribly and still not gain weight. But I'm trying to look at the big picture.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

But the research shows that thin people and fat people eat the same things, until a person gets fat. Then they cut calories and all that nonsense and just get fatter.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

I'm looking forward to this book, I must say (on hold at the library--- I







the library!).

I do think that many blatant -isms while just as profound currently as they have been in the past are at least a little bit less socially acceptable (unfortunately, in some ways, this makes them *harder* to fight, because much of what is offensive is hidden in shades of grey). I do think the obesity is a much safer -ism, in that there seem to be very little negative repercusssions in average society for mocking that group. It is viewed as a group *at fault* for their own group membership, and therefore, open to mockery.

I was also intrigued by the OPs quote of the following:

Quote:

"The single most noxious line of argument in the literature about obesity is that black and Hispanic girls and women need to be "sensitized" to the "fact" that they have innapropriately positive feelings about their bodies."
While I had never looked at it in quite that manner, that does mesh well with the research/anecdotal information I have read regarding adolescent female self-esteem (which is unexpectedly high among the poor minority sub-group compared to the middle-class white sub-group considering their primary group membership). Obviously many more reasons go into this, but an interesting concept just the same.


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## jeyer (Oct 27, 2003)

I guess I don't understand what you're getting at.

My point is, in most cases, the way a person gains weight is by consuming more calories than they need/expend. Where the unhealthy food comes in is that it makes it much easier to consume more calories than you need.

The average person today consumes a couple hundred more calories daily than they did before the explosion of the processed/fast/snack food industries. Couple that with a decline in exercise, and there's the answer to the question of why people are getting fatter.

Thin people who eat junk food and remain thin do so because they don't eat enough of it to get a calorie overload.

Here's an excellent book on this general subject: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...24613?v=glance


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeyer*
The average person today consumes a couple hundred more calories daily than they did before the explosion of the processed/fast/snack food industries. Couple that with a decline in exercise, and there's the answer to the question of why people are getting fatter.

Thin people who eat junk food and remain thin do so because they don't eat enough of it to get a calorie overload.

It might surprise you to know that this hasn't been proven. And you seem to be missing the point that fat people eat not only eat the same things that thin people do, but in the same quantities. The idea that most people get fat because they eat too much and don't exercise and people stay thin by eating well and exercising is a myth.

Look at those sites. Read some research that wasn't funded by Weight Watchers or Jenny Craig. Even the Surgeon General is in Weight Watchers's pocket. The info is out there.


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## jeyer (Oct 27, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Mothra*
It might surprise you to know that this hasn't been proven. And you seem to be missing the point that fat people eat not only eat the same things that thin people do, but in the same quantities. The idea that most people get fat because they eat too much and don't exercise and people stay thin by eating well and exercising is a myth.

Look at those sites. Read some research that wasn't funded by Weight Watchers or Jenny Craig. Even the Surgeon General is in Weight Watchers's pocket. The info is out there.

I never said that people stay thin by eating well and exercising! I said that even if they eat junk food, they stay thin by not consuming more calories than they expend -- period.

Now, the reasons for that are varied. Some may have a higher metabolism. Others may have a very physically demanding job. But the fact remains that the way a person gains weight is by maintaining a caloric glut. The way a person loses weight is by maintaining a caloric deficit. That, at least, has been proven.


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## jeyer (Oct 27, 2003)

Also, I have to question this statement from the Campos excerpt: "The biggest evidentiary problem for those who insist there is a strong causal link between increasing weight and heart disease is that deaths from heart disease have been plunging at precisely the same time that obesity rates have been skyrocketing."

Advances in medicine are the reason that deaths from heart disease have been plunging. So comparing heart disease deaths now to a couple of decades ago is like apples to oranges. It's dishonest of him not to point that out, and makes me question the rest of the research he cites.

I do, however, agree with the main thrust that we should be focusing on fitness rather than fatness. I also think we should be focusing on promoting healthy diets vs. junk diets.

Here is an interesting article that talks about the fact that Europeans are getting taller (one indicator of health), and Americans aren't. Could our junky diets be the reason? http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040405fa_fact


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

I really want to read this book! My sister and I were discussing (okay arguing) over wether a over weight person who eats healthy and gets moderate exercise is healthier than a thin person who eats crap and doesn't exercise. I think the over weight person is healthier she disagrees. We also argued over wether an over weight person with a good diet and moderate exercise is as healthy as a thin person that eats a healthy diet and gets moderate exercise. She thinks the thin person would of course be healthier and I completely disagree. I for one know what kind of eating disorder I must have to be thin and I will never do that to myself again. By the way my sister is quite thin and I would say has definite issues with eating and body image (as does every female in my family). She would rather be thin and unhealthy any day than fat. I think it is very easy for people particularly in the US to blame being fat for whatever ills us, it is a body image thing and I think has little to do with actual health issues. As a culture the US is fat phobic and over all has a messed up veiw of beauty.
By the way can anyone tell me how many stones=pounds. I have no idea how to convert that.


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## Tuesday (Mar 3, 2003)

For what it's worth, I'm throwing in my 2Cents and my own experience. I was never ever "heavy" as a child or teenager and I didn't eat junk as it was not allowed in the house and I always played sports. I did, however, have larger bones and large leg muscles which made me larger and heavier then most of my tiny girlfriends so from about 12 years on, I was positive I was "fat" and I constantly watched what I ate. I was not "fat" but I just recall tiny girls with leg bones the size of my arms pointing at my leg muscles and calling them "fat". Once I hit my early 20s, I was consumed with having a perfect body and worked out 1-2 hours a day and watched every morsel going into my mouth (never ever cheating!), whatever I needed to do to keep myself at a ..... size 8 and 135 pounds. I was solid muscle and looked fit but I was killing myself to be this way! I know I looked good and healthy but it was so hard to keep myself at this weight!! My entire life revolved around my body (how boring!!). It literally brought me to tears to see friends who didn't exercise or hardly at all, ate junk food and were size 2 and 4 and 110 and looked like gorgeous swimwear models in their bikinis while I still didn't look like that! I was fighting my genetics the entire way and it was just too hard to maintain.

I love to play sports and exercise so I started running half marathons several years ago. Did I lose weight? No, I gained 20 pounds and went up 2 sizes in the span of a summer. And it was not muscle, it was fat. Why did I get bigger? Because I stopped starving myself and started eating a normal healthy diet with the help of a registered dietician. I was sick of panicking about my food and wanted to be "normal". I wanted to be able to cook and to eat with friends and to have a life!!!

Guess what? I am now a size 12/14 and have been this size and weight for 5 or 6 years. I was even pregnant and shed all my weight but went back to this size. I know I am supposed to be this weight and size. But, yes, if you saw me you might say I was a bit heavy and could stand to lose 15 or 20 pounds to look what is considered aesthetically fit. But you'd be wrong!!!! Despite that I looked fit at my lower weight, I was ruining my life trying to be that size.

My whole life I have watched people who are naturally thin but not as fit as me or as healthy an eater, get applauded because their genetics have given them a particular sort of build. I don't agree that all heavy people are less active and don't eat as much as thin people - it just doesn't always work that way. I have friends that are naturally skinny ... too skinny and they wish they were heavier so I know it works both ways. I just wanted to add my 2 cents! Also, I would say that I would be healthier now at this weight because I am not yo-yoing up and down (which I read was bad for your heart). Not to mention I have shed the mental anguish and loneliness that was part of my life when I was constantly dieting!


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *jeyer*
...And yes, crash dieting probably does have negative health consequences, but gradual weight loss is what the experts preach, isn't it?

No. It's not. At least not in my experience as a fat woman.

For example, a few months ago my blood pressure suddenly soared from being on the low end of normal to being very high. My doctor (Internal Medicine) recommended that I loose as much weight as quickly as possible. She even wrote out a plan (no more than 800 calories a day, at least 30 minutes of aerobic exercise per day, etc.) She kept telling me that my very life was on the line unless I loose the fat.

Turns out I was on a medication that has a well known side effect of high blood pressure (which my Internal Medicine doctor knew I was on) My mother happened to have read an article about it and told me about it. So, I called my psychiatrist back, she took me off the medication and within two weeks my blood pressure had "miraculously" returned to normal.

I have dealt with fat-phobic doctors, midwifes and nutritionists. They literally do not hear me because they are so focused on my fat. They don't hear that I work out regularly, that I eat healthy with a rice based diet, that my chloesterol and blood pressure numbers are very good, and so on. Because of their fat-phobia, they wind up giving me bad medical treatment and advice.

Sometimes I want to gently give them a copy of *Big Fat Lies The Truth about Your Weight and Your Health* by Glenn A Gaesser, Ph.D. and implore them to read it. Other times I want to whack them over the head with a hardcopy edition of the same book.


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## pugmadmama (Dec 11, 2003)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Arduinna*
now fat people are the new evil, especially in the "natural health" " environmental commuity"

I really don't understand this. I have friends who consider themselves to "wise" to the way the media and advertising brainwash us but they believe everything the *40 billion dollar industry* says when it comes to being fat! The diet industry is sheer genius...convince Americans they need to do something that 90%+ of them will fail at and then convince them they just need to try harder and do it again.

Sheacoby, Have your sister read the book I linked to, Big Fat Lies. It provides scientific proof that a fat person who exercises and eats well is more healthy than a thin person who eats crap and doesn't exercise. In the book, the author talks a lot about it's _the excessive fat we eat, not the fat on our bodies_, that is killing us.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

I'm about 99.9% sure that I saw Greg Critser quoted somewhere advocating discrimination as a form of curbing obesity. I will try to find it.


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## muse (Apr 17, 2002)

Some great responses here, thanks for sharing some of your own experiences. I think the excerpt argues very well that the fight against obesity is not about health so much as about controlling us, and particularly women, while making a s***load of $$$.

I find this to be so affirming:

"One University of Arizona study found that, while only 10% of the white teenage girls surveyed were happy with their bodies, 70% of the black teenage girls were happy with theirs (the black girls weighed more, on average, than the white girls). When asked to define "beauty", the white girls described their feminine ideal as a woman 5ft 7in tall, weighing between seven and seven and a half stone (ie, someone thinner than the average model). By contrast, the black girls described a woman whose body included such features as visible hips and functional thighs..."

And this to be so disgusting:

"...Obesity researchers and diet companies are doing their best to change this unacceptable situation. In recent years, diet companies have targeted much of their advertising specifically toward upwardly mobile black and Hispanic women. As for obesity researchers, a recent article noted that black girls have better body images and lower rates of eating disorders than white girls, and also noted that they weighed more. "These findings," the authors concluded, "should be used in the development of culturally sensitive public health intervention programmes to help reduce the high rates of obesity within the black community and encourage black youth to achieve a healthy and reasonable [sic] body size."


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## mahdokht (Dec 2, 2002)

So THAT'S what happened. Damn it! I didn't realize that there was a concerted effort to do this, but I have noticed that the young black women that I know are far more obsessed over being thin the girls I went to high school with 10 years ago. I find that deeply disturbing.


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## muse (Apr 17, 2002)

Yep, it's sick.

Just take a look at women in the West Indies, Africa, India...well, heck, most of the non-white world excepting South East Asia, and you will see women of all shapes and sizes, and most of the women who are considered beautiful in their own culture would be considered obese in the west.

In the US the "ideal" size has become ludicrously, and dangerously, smaller and smaller. Whatever their size, millions of women now hate their bodies. It's literally killing us. Now THAT is a health issue.


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## mahdokht (Dec 2, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *muse*
Yep, it's sick.

Just take a look at women in the West Indies, Africa, India...well, heck, most of the non-white world excepting South East Asia, and you will see women of all shapes and sizes, and most of the women who are considered beautiful in their own culture would be considered obese in the west.

In the US the "ideal" size has become ludicrously, and dangerously, smaller and smaller. Whatever their size, millions of women now hate their bodies. It's literally killing us. Now THAT is a health issue.























































YES! Can we please talk about the life-long spiritual and psychological as well as physical harm inflicted on millions of women on a never-ending diet. And the exporting of American culture means that these dangerous standards of beauty (not health, beauty) are picked up all over the world. I see it in a lot of communities.


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## LavenderMae (Sep 20, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *muse*
In the US the "ideal" size has become ludicrously, and dangerously, smaller and smaller. Whatever their size, millions of women now hate their bodies. It's literally killing us. Now THAT is a health issue.










Well said and I think needs to be quoted again!!! This is the REAL health crisis!!!
I have been fighting an inner battle over this crap for way too long (since childhood). Finally I just said enough. I am over weight but for the first time I feel good in my own skin. I got so tired of hating my body over "ideals" that I didn't even hold. I got tired of seeing skinny women and hating them for being the "right" size. I got tired of abusing my body because I wasn't small enough. I got tired of worrying about how much fat something had in it. I just got so damn tired of placing my self-worth on how much I weigh. I am so sick of feeling judged (by family mostly) for being over weight and still eating what I want, ya know I should be killing myself and depriving myself because I don't weigh what they think I should. Just not gonna do it any more and make no apologies about it, nor should I!!
I hope that I have stopped this crap in time so that my daughter will not be damaged by my misguided obsession with being fat. I do not want her to carry on this legacy or rather burden that every female I know carries in their soul.
Rant over (for now anyway :LOL).


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## daylily (Dec 1, 2001)

Quote:

My doctor (Internal Medicine) recommended that I loose as much weight as quickly as possible. She even wrote out a plan (no more than 800 calories a day,
This just illustrates that some doctors are totally ignorant about nutrition. An 800 calorie-a-day diet is not healthy and will only trick your body into believing that you're going through a famine, which will slow the metabolism and cause the body to tenaciously hang onto its fat.


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## AnnMarie (May 21, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *pugmadmama*
For example, a few months ago my blood pressure suddenly soared from being on the low end of normal to being very high. My doctor (Internal Medicine) recommended that I loose as much weight as quickly as possible. She even wrote out a plan (no more than 800 calories a day, at least 30 minutes of aerobic exercise per day, etc.) She kept telling me that my very life was on the line unless I loose the fat.









: That's just crazy.







Eating more frequently (The right foods of course.) will help you lose weight, not starving yourself. That doctor needs to go back to school. Not only is she giving you wrong advise, but it's also dangerous.


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## muse (Apr 17, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *mahdokht*
And the exporting of American culture means that these dangerous standards of beauty (not health, beauty) are picked up all over the world.


Oh yes, thank you for pointing that out!...


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

What Tuesday said resonnated with me as well.

I didn't go through the dieting until I was a size 8 phase but I'm tall and big boned and muscular and have always felt fat. I was clinicaly underweight as a teenager but felt fat because of those short scrawney girls. I remember once in high school asking one of those girls what they did to be so thin and was offered some speed (that was my first clue) I ate healthy but was pretty obcessed with it because becoming fat was like a curse.

I became overweight after having five children it got worse with baby six and that much worse with baby seven. I started exercising after baby eight and lost 30lbs.

I'm at the upper end of my healthy wieght spectrum. I'm much more solid than the cultural ideal (5'8" and a size 12ish) but I'm healthy and am physically active.

Now dh is thin because of his genetics. He sits in his office and his exercise is typing and walking down the stairs to his car. Seriously he doesn't exercise and when he goes out skiing or waterskiing (his only activities all year) he is extremely sore the next day. His diet is wretched truely wretched. He eats meat and potatoes and very few veggies and no fruites. But he's skinny because of his genes.

Who is healthier.

I say this but I am concerned with the increase in obesity (real obesity not the top end of the "healthy" specturm. I think there is greater tendency in poorer children but there seems to be an increase in all groups of children.

My kids say I sound like Grandma Baker but it wasn't that way when I was a child. There was generally about one fat kid in the group and everone else was thin until puberty and then some more got chunkey but we were still generally thin.

I blame junk food and TV.

But I also believe normal comes in all shapes and sizes and the little petite 5'3" 105lbs and size 2 girl shouldn't be idolized.

Debra Baker


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

Mothra, I did read the article (just now) and I think you missed my point. Or maybe I didn't make it clearly enough?

I think the industry trying to make AA and any other girls feel bad about themselves, no matter what their weight, is criminal. It's criminal that they've reached white girls with the lies, it's criminal that they're going after the nonwhite girls. We all the right to feel good about ourselves in the skins we're in.

I have known people fatter AND fitter than I am. Fitness is what matters, not the size of the fit person's clothing--as the article points out.

It's interesting to see the numbers in this article, especially as I had read years ago that the people who did the best healthwise were those not the absolutely skinny, but those who had a bit of "cushion" weight. Gives us reserves in time of illness I suspect.

I think the problem is one of extremes. The industry is pushing the railthin extreme. Too many people are on the extremely heavy extreme. Having been nearly there, I can tell you that I was quite happy with myself, if only because I don't place much value on appearance, but I was not physically comfortable. I'm not even remotely near the thin end of the scale now after 13 months of watching what I eat, but I'm a damn sight more comfortable in my soft but smaller and more fit body. My goal is so not that thin extreme either. The kids like a bit of soft when being hugged.









I'd like to know what a Stone translates to in pounds though, so I can see what the range they've found to be healthiest is. I'm probably there.


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## Tuesday (Mar 3, 2003)

I saw Kelly Ripa on Live with Regis and Kelly the other day. Apparently she was on David Letterman show one night recently and was weighed - she weighs 108 pounds. I'm not sure her height - around 5'4? I don't know. Anyway, obviously, Kelly is a very petite woman. What bothers me is that I've heard her many times on t.v. make self-deprecating comments like she is too fat, her thighs are too big. She also makes jokes about how she eats a lot of fast food and she doesn't exercise. If this is all true and this mother of 3 kids really doesn't watch what she eat or exercise, she is extremely gifted with a high metabolism. I know, for my structure, if I was 108 pounds, I'd be hooked up to an IV in the hospital because I'd be close to death. In any case, what bothers me is that she is on t.v. every day, in front of millions of female viewers, complaining about her weight as if she is "fat". I do not watch this show regularly but when I do see her on the television, it does, deep down inside of me, make wonder ... how is she so thin and I am not. Why am I not just a little smaller. Why can't exercise and diet even help me lose weight? Then, I shut off those voices and realize I'm just a unique individual and this is my genetic make-up. But, still, it bothers me that tiny little actresses with very public profiles complain about themselves as if they are fat and at the same time publicize that they have unhealthy lifestyle habits.


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## Mothra (Jun 4, 2002)

Stars that go on and on about how they eat whatever they want and never exercise are lying. Maybe not all of them, but I'd be willing to bet my bottom dollar that most of the are. One celebrity in particular is quoted often saying she loves french fries and cheeseburgers and never goes to the gym. Well, she might love them, but while on set she lives on raw veggies and Marlboro lights. She might not go to the gym, but she works with a personal trainer three hours a day. (I have friends in "the industry".) It is part of their job to make their appearance seem effortless. Kelly Rippa has dozens of people whose job it is to make her beautiful and thin. Bullshit that she doesn't exercise and eats large amounts of crappy food. Unless she has the metabolism of a hummingbird, it just isn't true. Thin people can never exercise and eat crappy food, but they won't have the muscle tone that Kelly Rippa has. Check out her upper arms and her calves. She works out.


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## Piglet68 (Apr 5, 2002)

I agree with most of what has been said in this thread. Discrimination of any kind needs to be stopped. Ridiculous standards of "body image" constructed by the fashion industry etc also need to be stopped.

I'm always amazed when people talk of size 14/16 being "big". That's my ideal size. I'm 5'5" and have been at my ideal weight for over a year (well, I'm PG now so it's increasing, lol). That weight is 140. I have a petite upper body and wide hips and thighs. I feel wonderful if I can get in a 12 comfortably. Some 14's are more comfy. I'm totally normal in terms of BMI. I don't think anybody could look at me and call me overweight. I actually love my weight right now. And yet, if you go on dress size alone, I'm almost in "plus size" territory. It's just nuts!

However, with all that said, I do think that we risk going too far in the other direction. Obesity IS a major health crisis in the US. You can go on all you want about low metabolisms, and fat people not eating any differently than thin people, etc. But none of these explain why obesity now represents the MAJORITY of americans. AND why this phenomena is most definitely cultural. The heart failure statement was also a joke - I work in Cardiology and I can tell you that obese people are VASTLY over-represented in our patient population. I study heart failure and know that the strains of carrying excess weight have very real and dire consequences for heart health.

Sometimes I fear for Americans, so many of whom tend to see themselves as representative of the whole Planet. You see it in so many things: most Americans believe sleeping with your baby is exceedingly dangerous, seemingly oblivious to the reality that few people on this planet use cribs or have ever slept in one as a baby. Many Americans think toting guns around is a basic freedom and that "responsible gun use" can be separated from the ridiculously high homicide rates here. How many other countries have had high-school massacres, or disgruntled-employee massacres? And yet so many just can't see the glaring truth.

And I'm afraid the same thing goes for obesity. I've been in five other developed nations in the last few years (Canada, New Zealand, France, Italy, and England) and I can tell you that the obesity epidemic here is so OBVIOUS when you go elsewhere. In Paris they eat rich foods all day long, and smoke and drink, and yet we were hard pressed to find anybody who was obese in our travels. Here in Cleveland, on Mothers' Day we went to the zoo - it was crowded (great weather, free admission for moms). Just to see if my suspicions bore any fact at all, I started counting people who were obviously obese (I'm not talking chunky here - I happen to like curvy women and my idea of overweight is probably pretty liberal) and it was kind of scary - almost 45% of people I saw were really big. And, sadly, alot of those were children. I simply cannot attribute this to "healthy, exercising, good-food-eating individuals who are cursed with a naturally heavy weight". There's a problem here and it is societal/cultural. It's not just a bunch of folks with slow metabolisms.

I wish so much that we could motivate our society to change it's ways and focus on healthy lifestyles without belittling and demeaning individuals. I also think the stuff with the coloured girls is appalling - frankly I think the African American physique is very beautiful and find it disgraceful that we are trying to homogenize everybody into the Barbie model of beauty.

Can we separate the health issue from the human dignity issue? I think we could if we tried. I hope so.


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## Tuesday (Mar 3, 2003)

What an elegant post, Piglet. I agree with everything you said. Thanks! And, yes, I find it scary to see so many people that are morbidly obese. I mean children that must be 200 pounds and adults at 300 or 400 pounds. I am Canadian. I notice more people this size in the last few years than ever before.


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## candiland (Jan 27, 2002)

Quote:

By Mothra: I'm about 99.9% sure that I saw Greg Critser quoted somewhere advocating discrimination as a form of curbing obesity.

















Please, say it isn't so!


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## pamamidwife (May 7, 2003)

I think that fat is one thing, unhealthy is another. When our schools are serving very unhealthy meals, people generally are eating poorly (myself included!), and we are seeing an increase in the number of young people developing Type II diabetes, I think we need to look at where we are.

Fat is an easy target because in many people's eyes, fat = unhealthy. What is more true is that many of the problems senior citizens have when it comes to high pharmaceutical costs and needing all these presecriptions could have been prevented with better diet. More exercise. Let's face it: we're a pretty sedentary society. We drive everywhere.

There are other countries that eat more fat, more carbs. But, they are leaner and healthier. Why? They exercise more. I'm not talking gym exercise, I'm talking about just walking to the store, riding your bikes to the park rather than driving.

When you go to a fast food restaurant, what is the small size? What, ten years ago, was the medium or large. Portions are out of control and Americans are eating so much more.

I think much of obesity has more to do with emotions and feeding our insecurities, fears and problems than with a general "well, that's just how we're made".

While I won't buy into blatant fatphobic discrimination techniques, I cannot shy away from the fact that I do not want to be diabetic, taking Lipitor for my cholesterol while still eating cheeseburgers, taking anti-hypertensives while still drinking Starbucks and walking out of Costco with a purchase as big as my SUV and my supersized appetite.

We're killing ourselves. But, if it's fatphobic to say so, then I'm horrifically confused. BTW, I'm a size 18/20 and I've loved my body all along the path. I also know that my eating, just like many others, is triggered by emotions. We're all sad, fearful and insecure. And we stuff down crap to temporarily ease the pain.


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## Breathless Wonder (Jan 25, 2004)

Look Pam, as a fat person, I agree with you. I "stuff" my feelings, and my weight *IS* to some degree a shield.

Did you read the thread awhile back "For fat people only?" There was some GREAT discussion there!

The reality is that having a weight problem does NOT mean it is okay for you to be dehumanized and shamed!!! It just doesn't!!! It doesn't mean it is okay for people to treat you like a second class citizen.

That type of treatment does not work for adults any better than it works for kids! But I suppose that penalizing adults for their weight is just the "logical consequence".

Hammering the "facts" over and over isn't useful either!

I don't think ANY of these techniques get us anywhere!!!

My friend's mother has now gone from a 3X down to a size 16 or 14...I forget which (it's 72 pounds of weight loss) since last November. My friend kept repeating over and over that the new doctor her mom saw "wouldn't let her get away with" not getting on the scale, while her previous doctor had. OK. So this means her mother was bullied, and forced, and THAT'S A GOOD THING?!?!?! The end result (her mom is now off of a lot of her medication, and is having MUCH less back and joint pain.) is great. But do the ends justify the means?

I just don't know.


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## miss_sonja (Jun 15, 2003)

I think this is a tough issue you name below. Many doctors don't mention weight issues with their patients, worried about offending them. BUT, wouldn't it be better to treat obsesity as a health problem rather than a moral issue? If a patient's weight is affecting their health, their doctor should be able to talk about it with them. Not in a shaming way, there's no need for that. But I think many people really don't know how to prepare healthy meals or know which foods are better for their bodies.

I remember being about 13 and going to the doctor for a check-up. The nurse commented on my weight saying 'we all know when we need to lose a few pounds'. I don't know what I weighed, but I still remember that comment. The nurse herself was overweight...maybe she was commiserating.

I think education about nutrition and the role it plays in health is one of the keys. The big problem? There's too darn much money to be made in the weight loss AND snack food industries.

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Breathless Wonder*
My friend's mother has now gone from a 3X down to a size 16 or 14...I forget which (it's 72 pounds of weight loss) since last November. My friend kept repeating over and over that the new doctor her mom saw "wouldn't let her get away with" not getting on the scale, while her previous doctor had. OK. So this means her mother was bullied, and forced, and THAT'S A GOOD THING?!?!?! The end result (her mom is now off of a lot of her medication, and is having MUCH less back and joint pain.) is great. But do the ends justify the means?

I just don't know.


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## sohj (Jan 14, 2003)

I've been following this thread with interest (even though I've mostly been posting on the various Iraq threads). There are a lot of interesting trains of thought here, quite a variety. I want to say







to the discussion.

Without any "scientific" evidence, I gotta agree about being "fat" and exercising and eating properly cannot be less healthy than being "thin" and eating garbage and not exercising.

Last week, I was reminded of this whole issue by an article in the Science Times section (Tuesdays in the NY Times) on _stomach reduction operations_. ...All these surgeons going on and on about how this is the only way to help some people.







: Well, I haven't been there myself, but I know a guy who had that operation and, frankly, his story was horrible. I mean horrible as in the word "HORROR". OK? He went in to the hospital, had the stomach reduction and (I think) some version of liposuction. (I'm shuddering as I type this, this stuff nauseates me incredibly.) I'm not going to give you the blow-by-blow as he did to me, so, in a nutshell, he had a herniation TWICE during recovery AND got a staph infection in the hospital. He was supposed to be there overnight and was in there for nearly 5 weeks. And, his stomach muscles never healed right, so he can only lift things straight up, dangling from his arms -- he can't bend forward to pick up something heavy. This guy formerly was a bodyguard. He's a big guy even if he were to starve himself totally and get rid of every ounce of fat. And, now, he is crippled because of this insane pressure to "be thin". Even for guys.

Sedentary lives and poor eating habits are a problem. Weight itself isn't.

Unfortunately, there is this very common thought that fat and sedentary are synonomous. I have once caught myself saying "fat" in that sense _even though I know and knew better_. (The fact that I had done that was a part of a story I recounted here and I very deservedly got taken to task for it by merpk, by the way.) It is foolish.

On the topic of doctors/nurses and weighing: First of all, I don't think that "everyone needs to lose a few pounds".







And that CERTAINLY isn't something that should be said to a teenager. I remember once going to a GP in town when I was in high school (14 years old). It was a boarding school, so I didn't know the docs in town and needed the annual checkup and just asked the nurse in the infirmary who the school used. She gave me a choice of two and I picked one at random. Weeeeeeell, I had just gone through a massive curves development and had bright red stretch marks all over my hips and upper thighs. The doc (yes, he had weighed me, too) said that they were a result of me being too fat and blood vessels were being pressed against my skin. [







or







...which do you want to do?] Aside from his shear stupidity in anatomy, I was furious that someone would have claimed I was overweight. I was, according to those stupid charts in the books in the library, on the underweight end of "normal" (whatever the hell that is) and I was nearly solid muscle as I was on every sports team we had going plus I did dance classes. (Yeah, I was a jock.) So, I never went back. Did I tell him off? I was too shocked. I should have. I contemplated sending him a gift-wrapped book on anatomy and a copy of Our Bodies Ourselves since he obviously needed an education. I was mostly furious, though, please understand this, at the idea that if this old fart was going to tell _me_ that I was overweight, then what in blazes was he telling _other_ girls? 9 out of 10 girls in my school (all female place) were obsessed with their weight and appearance. Actually, it was probably 29 out of 30. We had binge eaters, bulemics, and anorexics. One girl who was on the soccer team with me was out of school for two weeks because she was in intensive care for starvation. All I ever saw her consume was Tabs. I never saw her eat anything.







My best friend there was also on the soccer team and was >gasp< heavy (by the standards of those charts). And black. And, you know what? She had plenty of teenage angst problems like the rest of all us screwed-up high schoolers, but she liked her body. And she was healthy and strong and had great endurance. So, now I'm hearing there is something wrong with that?







:

I looooove how the medical industry wants to break us down into little discreet packets of "issues" that can all be treated for a fee and we can be manipulated. Our ped is constantly tracking my son's weight. He is slender. He is below the 5th percentile on the graph. He is healthy. My doula's son is above the 90th percentile for weight on the graph. He is also healthy. We go to the same ped. We both get the inquisition on what we're feeding our kids.









Some day, maybe we'll be seen as individuals, not as data points on some curve.


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## pamamidwife (May 7, 2003)

Yeah, I completely agree that dehumanization and shame techniques are not going to help, only ostracize.

I really started to think more about this after reading Fatland. It was interesting and very thought-provoking.

I totally agree that the "ideal" is unattainable (and it should be!) by the majority. My ideal is when I feel healthy and strong.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

"I'd like to know what a Stone translates to in pounds though, so I can see what the range they've found to be healthiest is. I'm probably there"

not sure if anyone has answered this but a stone is 14lbs. So 7 1/2 stone is very very thin for a tall girl. Ugh.

I still can't think in lbs. When someone tells me about somoene's size, eg he's 6ft 4 and weighs 200lbs or 400lbs, I wouldnt know if they were saying he were anorexic or obese, and have to do some maths to work it out.


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## Britishmum (Dec 25, 2001)

I think though that the obesity issue is becoming big in the UK, and probalby the rest of Europe. There is a big drive right now to get UK schools to promote healthier eating, exercise etc, including getting teachers to set a good example. We just follow a little behind the USA in everything, good and bad....


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## Meiri (Aug 31, 2002)

14 pounds? I wasn't far off in my guess of 15 when reading the article then.








400#=28.57Stone, 200#=14.28Stone.

After seeing the dread







BMI chart at our doc's office Wednesday when DH and I both had our physicals, I have changed my weight goal from 10 stone to 10.7 stone. I figure a BMI of 24 is about right for health, with a few curves and reserves.









I haven't found shame or disgust to be a good motivator either. What got me started actually was my doc's encouragement and pointing out that I would feel better (physically) if I got to a healthier weight than I was at at the time. She suggested WW, and I've been using their system, sans meetings. Her enthusiasm and unequivically positive attitude at whatever success I've had when I've seen her are great. DH OTOH...some days just seems to see what's left to do instead of what's been accomplished. aargh

There's nothing wrong with encouraging healthy eating and exercise. I think those don't have to be tied to weight. If doing enough of both, the weight IMO will probably take care of itself.


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## daylily (Dec 1, 2001)

Quote:

I really started to think more about this after reading Fatland
I read _Fatland_ too. I really think there's something to his theory of how high fructose corn syrup and palm kernel oil are really messing with our bodies. Before the 1970's, convenience foods were sweetened with sugar, which is expensive, which meant that Americans didn't consume very many of them. But Nixon's secretary of agriculture worked out some kind of deal with farmers in Malaysia and American farmers and the result was a market saturated with cheap treats that were loaded with corn syrup and tropical oils.


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## muse (Apr 17, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Britishmum*
I think though that the obesity issue is becoming big in the UK, and probalby the rest of Europe. There is a big drive right now to get UK schools to promote healthier eating, exercise etc, including getting teachers to set a good example. We just follow a little behind the USA in everything, good and bad....

yeah but we are also following willfully behind in the oppressive beauty standards promoted in the US.

sohj, can I take this opportunity to say I love your posts?! All of 'em! (well, all that I've read..







)


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## simonee (Nov 21, 2001)

nak

underweight women are weaker physically. that's just what the old boy networks need now that feminism has given women a voice. WOC didn't have much voice yet, so nobody cared if their bodies were stronger. Now that "even" WOC are gaining some power, off goes the weight. Prepubescent weaklings, that's what we must be.

now that health has become attainable for everybody, medical issues are increasingly presented as a moral issues (obesity, addiction, late term abortion). Obesity is good for capitalism: agriculture, fast food, pharmas buy each others' shares, and they all have big political lobbies. They all gain from each other and our obesity.

I read last week that in Germany they have developed a new "desperate" treatment that's less invasive than stomach stapling. It's sewing themouth shut, with a hole just big enough for a straw. Think Hannibal LEcter lol. Really.


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## Viola (Feb 1, 2002)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *Tuesday*
And, yes, I find it scary to see so many people that are morbidly obese. I mean children that must be 200 pounds and adults at 300 or 400 pounds.

I'm not sure if the term morbid obesity is used as much anymore since I just found descriptions and the highest one was "extremely obese, cateory 3" Anyone with a BMI over 40 fits into the highest obesity category, and is eligible for weight loss surgery without any complicating health problems.

My understanding is that morbid obesity was defined as being 100 lbs over your ideal weight. The ideal weight categories can vary a bit from standard to standard, but if a woman was supposed to weigh no more than 142 and she weighed 242, then she would be considered morbidly obese.

Has anyone read this book yet? I'm curious about it.


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## DebraBaker (Jan 9, 2002)

If I'm understanding Simonee correctly (having a blonde day) I agree.

One thing about being big and burley is I'm strong and healthy.

No one bothers with me and I feel safe.

DB


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## KoalaMama (Jan 24, 2004)

:







: Ok... I am always on my soap box about how the media spins things in the worse possible way, about how big business funds studies and throws the numbers out there to rope us into buying their cr*p... Yet what do you think happened when I read this statement?:

"Actually, the definition of diabetes has changed (from a fasting blood sugar of 140 to a blood sugar of 126) and many more people have been diagnosed as suffering from the disease."








The lightbulb went on and I realized I'd been duped. I bought this line even though I've ranted and raved over reports of similar increases in other diseases, knowing full well that the pharmaceutical companies just decided it was time to medicate more of the population. Um, of course they lowered the threshold! Slow year in business? Just tell the docs to lower that line and double your sales in a month. Woo hoo! Just when I thought I'd caught on enough not to fall into this trap.









Just the other day I was saying to some friends that I've discovered the healthier I eat the bigger I get - munch on chocolate and junk food and I'm in my "skinny" pants. Eat a month of decent meals and point me to elastic waist pants, please.

This whole thread makes me remember what it was like when I was 14/15 and afraid to eat lunch in case I gained a couple unwanted pounds. I remember a week one summer where all I ate was a potato, a small piece of beef, a bag of cheesies and a fudgsicle - the entire week! And was proud of myself for it. I can't believe I ever did that to myself. Very, very sad.


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## shine (Nov 20, 2001)

The cut off for high blood pressure used to be 140/90, it's been recently discussed changing that to 120/80. More meds.


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## Bearsmama (Aug 10, 2002)

Very sad and very interesting. Our obsession is insane in this country. And I've read and heard before that overweight people are the last remaining "okay" target of discrimination in this country.


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## JoshuasMommy (Feb 19, 2004)

I am Fat! Which is what makes me not afraid of jumping into this discussion. America is fat and getting fatter by the second. Forget the politics around it. There is an agenda there too involved for me to even venture in right now. Back to where I was going...There are many reasons why I am fat and I have to believe that other fat people will agree with me on this. First of all we are killing ourselves with fast food. I don't just mean McDonalds either. Look at our grocery stores. They use to be markets or small stores atleast. Now it's like going to the circus. Row after row after row of boxed, canned, plastic wrapped, in a pouch you name it food. They have made it so easy you can walk in and buy your meal hot and ready to eat compliments of whatever store you shop in. Remember when the grocery store had 1 frozen aisle a few canned and box aisles and a big fresh meat and veggies section? Preparing meals meant actually cooking from scratch? Getting a frozen dinner was a HUGE TREAT. And folks I am not old just 36. People actual prepared meals. In our quest to simplify our lives we have man made our foods with chemical, preservatives and God knows whatelse is in there. We stick stuff in our mouths that have a list of ingredients on them that you need a degree to understand. Then you add large screen TV's, DVD, movies on demand, satellites, x boxes, computers and the fact that most households have 2 cars...Well, HELLO is it any wonder we don't get exercise? Then to add insult to injury our economy SUCKS and most families have to have dual incomes longer hours and less vacations. But that's just the tip of the iceberg...Now add to that the pharmacutical companies who are teaching us and our children how to medicate themselves, diagnose there ailments and ask for drugs...OMG don't get me started. I almost pulled my tongue out the other day. I was singing to my son and just babbling to entertain him when out of my mouth comes the words to a drug commercial. I can't spell what I repeated and I should never in my life time even know how to pronounce what I said. I was disgusted...It is a vicious cycle. And we are all stuck in it. You try to eat better buy better food you know the organic stuff for $15 a pound and then find out there is no truth in advertising. The fact is that we need to make a change in our corner of the world. You know why they are thin in Europe? They walk a lot to and from work to the market etc. They work less hours than americans. They take "holidays" in the summer and during the day for there big meal "lunch". They shop daily for fresh food that is prepared from scratch for the family. There stress level is half of ours. Half my relatives in Italy live in the city and have never owned a car. If it's to far to walk they take a bus. All this technolgy we boast about as Americans come with a very HIGH price tag...our lives. And our government is right there in the mix. They allowed us to get fat for profit and now want to shame us to get skinny for profit. I'll shut up now...Cause I could go on for days. This is very personal to me because I have been struggling with my weight for the past 10 yrs now. I know I have responsibilty for my weight but it is frustrating when the deck is so stacked against you.


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## KoalaMama (Jan 24, 2004)




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