# school bus vs. van?



## beru (Nov 19, 2007)

A mom I work with is almost as paranoid as I am when it comes to other people driving her children around. She is on the board of her child's after school daycare and was part of an effort to buy their own vans because she felt buses without seatbelts were not safe. I then told her that I chose one summer program over another for my school age son because I prefer to have him in a bus than in a van that does not have headrests. (The program I looked at had low back boosters available or I could send my own but it would be too hard for him to carry around the highback booster so he could have head protection.)

The kids in her program do use low back boosters in the van but she admitted she hadn't thought about the headrest thing. Now I have got her wondering about the safety of that.

And she has me worried about seatbelts in buses. I have read about the fact that they are padded and "compartmentalized". There is also is the advantage of being one of the largest things on the road. They are just hardly going to budge if hit by a sedan...

*This is what I would like a response to. You have a 6-11 year old. Which way would you prefer them to ride?

1. In a 13 passenger van with low back boosters, shoulder belts and no headrests.
2. A full-sized school bus with no seat belts*

(Also, would your decision be different for 6 year olds vs 11 year olds? What would the cut off be?)


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## alegna (Jan 14, 2003)

My one question is I don't know how safe the mini-buses are in relation to full sized buses and many schools and daycares use the little ones.

BUT, otherwise I'd want my kid in a full sized bus without a seatbelt. Statistically I'm fairly sure that's safer.

-Angela


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## mamadelbosque (Feb 6, 2007)

Between a regular full-size bus and a van? No contest, the bus, for sure. Between one of the small/mini buses w/o seat belts & a van? IDK. Thats a tougher one.


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## beru (Nov 19, 2007)

OK, I'll revise my question. I am speaking of a full-sized school bus.


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## an_aurora (Jun 2, 2006)

Absolutely the bus, no question.


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## RufusBeans (Mar 1, 2004)

bus, hands down


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

I cannot say it strongly enough -- full-size school bus trumps big van by oodles and oodles.


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## Marsupialmom (Sep 28, 2003)

Bus! Big School bus. Even a "short" school bus over a van.


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## fruitfulmomma (Jun 8, 2002)

I am going to go with bus even though I cringe at the idea of no seat belts. Is there no way to put them in?

Full-size vans are notoriously dangerous. Due to their design they roll over very easily.

According to this site...
http://www.sadlersports.com/riskmana...engervans.html

if the program she is working with is related to the school at all, it is illegal for them to purchase or use a van to transport students in.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Typically-sized school-age kids in school busses are safer without seatbelts than with them.


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## fruitfulmomma (Jun 8, 2002)

Quote:

Typically-sized school-age kids in school busses are safer without seatbelts than with them.
Do you know why that is?

What about the smaller sized buses?


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

School busses depend on compartmentalization to protect kids in crashes -- think of an egg carton and how the eggs are protected by the close fit and the high dividers. It would be impossible to have belts that fit kids well from a 40# kindergartener through a 250# senior linebacker, and a poorly fitting belt can do a lot of damage in the abdominal area.

As far as the little busses -- some small busses are built to big-bus standards with roll bars in the roof and triple-wall construction and high foam-lined seatbacks, and some are just big shuttle vans painted yellow. It's hard to say without knowing more about the little bus in question.


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## beru (Nov 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
School busses depend on compartmentalization to protect kids in crashes -- think of an egg carton and how the eggs are protected by the close fit and the high dividers. It would be impossible to have belts that fit kids well from a 40# kindergartener through a 250# senior linebacker, and a poorly fitting belt can do a lot of damage in the abdominal area.

As far as the little busses -- some small busses are built to big-bus standards with roll bars in the roof and triple-wall construction and high foam-lined seatbacks, and some are just big shuttle vans painted yellow. It's hard to say without knowing more about the little bus in question.

I am going a little off topic but...if compartmentalization is the key, where does that leave city buses? I ride the bus with my son a lot and I have just assumed its safe because it's big. I have never had to make this hypothetical decision but would I rather take him on a city bus or ride in a car/van with no headrest (with shoulder belt and low back booster).


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## rachelsmama (Jun 20, 2005)

A schoolbus is about as safe as it gets. A crash between a car and a schoolbus that totals the car will barely be felt by the occupants of the schoolbus.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

City busses are not quite as super-safe as school busses, but they are still significantly safer than passenger vehicles even with perfect and properly used restraints in the passenger vehicle.


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## leighi123 (Nov 14, 2007)

Big bus - you cant use backless boosters with a low seat back, they would have to be high back (could you get high backs that just live in the van though?)

Otherwise the big bus for sure, they are way safer than smaller vehicles.

Also, there are harness things that can be used on busses, when I was in school, any kid under 60lbs had to use one, I remember it being some sort of harness that was buckled onto the kid and then attached around the seat on the bus.


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## 34me (Oct 2, 2006)

Any bus over a van.


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## urchin_grey (Sep 26, 2006)

Another vote for the bus.









I have a not-so-typically sized 5yo though so he won't be riding any buses unrestrained for a while yet.


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## TiredX2 (Jan 7, 2002)

I would go so far to say not only would I prefer the bus but that I would not allow my child to ride in a van with a backless booster (if the seat back was not over their ears). My BIL ran a Karate Dojo and I reminded him that many elementary aged kids needed to be in boosters still so he got those. Then I went to ride in the van with MY kids and realized they didn't have headrests in the seats or backs on the booster. I had boosters with backs but BIL refused to change anything either for his son OR the kids in the program







Personally, while against the law, I would rather my child sat without a booster in the van situation (though I would allow neither outside of an emergency).


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## dealic (Feb 25, 2007)

Ok, I have heard this compartmentalization thing before, and I can't get my head around it. Does anyone have links explaining/showing how this works? With several kids on a seat, aisles between them, etc, I don't get how they are compartmentalized like eggs. I do understand the relative size of a bus versus a car and that effect on how passengers feel impact. But we have had several bus accidents in the news around me lately, and the kids seemed to have been tossed around a lot inside the bus.


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## SophieAnn (Jun 26, 2007)

Another vote for full-sized bus.

When I was somewhere between 6-10 I was actually in a collision involving a school bus. I was riding in the school bus and we were T-boned by a car that hit ice. The whole front end of the car was squished in. Our bus had a dent in the side, and we did experience quite a jolt, but noone on the bus was hurt. We were scared, and a couple fell out of their seats, but we were fine.

Of course it's possible for a school bus to be in a collision that will cause injuries to the passengers, but for the same severity of collision, the kids in the school bus will be better protected than the kids in the van, JMPO.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

Kids do get tossed around on a bus. In a severe crash, there will be bumps and bruises, possibly a broken arm. People do get hurt in crashes. But fatalities in school bus crashes are exceedingly rare.

From the Transportation Research Board (http://www.trb.org/Main/Blurbs/The_R..._161028.aspx):

Quote:

Each year approximately 800 school-aged children are killed in motor vehicle crashes during normal school travel hours. This figure represents about 14 percent of the 5,600 child deaths that occur annually on U.S. roadways and 2 percent of the nation's yearly total of 40,000 motor vehicle deaths. Of these 800 deaths, about 20 (2 percent)-5 school bus passengers and 15 pedestrians-are school bus-related. The other 98 percent of school-aged deaths occur in passenger vehicles or to pedestrians, bicyclists, or motorcyclists.
Five kids per year die in school bus crashes. 785 die in other vehicle or pedestrian incidents.


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## dealic (Feb 25, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *chickabiddy* 
Kids do get tossed around on a bus. In a severe crash, there will be bumps and bruises, possibly a broken arm. People do get hurt in crashes. But fatalities in school bus crashes are exceedingly rare.

From the Transportation Research Board (http://www.trb.org/Main/Blurbs/The_R..._161028.aspx):

Five kids per year die in school bus crashes. 785 die in other vehicle or pedestrian incidents.

Ok, so what percentage of school children use school buses? The statistic is meaningless without knowing how it compares to the general demographic.


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## DahliaRW (Apr 16, 2005)

No idea on percentages, but probably at about any public school in the US roughly half the kids attending will ride the school bus daily. I suspect it is a HUGE number and probably more than kids that are driven to school.


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## dealic (Feb 25, 2007)

Ok, that gives me some perspective. I am not American so I had no sense of how to judge that figure. I am sure Canada isn't much different, but honestly I don't even know how many kids are bussed here. I never was, so that's all the experience I have.


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## chickabiddy (Jan 30, 2004)

When I did my CEUs on school bus safety, the figure was 53% of K-12 students ride busses. I can't imagine it's changed considerably in the past two years.


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## beru (Nov 19, 2007)

Quote:


Originally Posted by *TiredX2* 
I would rather my child sat without a booster in the van situation (though I would allow neither outside of an emergency).

This stance is of particluar interest to me. I am not sure how worried I should be about the lack of headrests. I know they are important in rear-end crashes but those are less common, right? Are headrests important in frontal and side crashes? Are they more vital for younger passengers with less developed necks?

I am guessing you think the potential for serious head and neck injuries without a head rest is greater than the potential for abdominal injuries with an ill-fitting seat belt.

(Hopefully, this will remain a hypothetical choice in practice.)


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