# Friend wants DD to come over by herself



## seashells (Jan 23, 2009)

We (DH and I) have friends that have recently moved up to that status (that of "friends") in the last few months. They were acquaintances for almost seven years, though. We have a daughter and they have a son about the same age. The kids play together really well.

Since the friendship for the whole family is new, we've been having get-togethers. Either both whole families get together, or one adult from each family plus the children.

The woman friend, let's just call her Dee, has asked a few times if DD could come over by herself. The first time she asked, we asked DD and she said she didn't want to - I wasn't surprised; DD had only been over their house once at that point (mostly mutual playdates at the park before).

Now DH is not a trusting man. He is not of the "humans are basically good" tribe. He is suspicious of motives. He is fiercely protective of his family. And he has some good reasons to have come to this (I can already hear people criticizing my DH). So the first time Dee asked DD to come over by herself, DH's antenna went up. It bothered him that Dee asked this. No, not like "I'm ending the friendship" bothered, but just like wanting to talk out with me what could have spurred this request.

Now, I trust Dee very, very much. Our friendship may be new but they (Dee and her husband) have very similar values to us. She is a calm and good mother. And DH was actually the one who decided to kind of bring the acquaintance to the level of friendship, and he did that because he thought they were good people. He is not a man to just hang out with anyone.

I told DH I thought Dee wanted DD to come over by herself to give Dee a sort of a break. Since the kids play together so well, they could entertain each other while Dee maybe got things done around the house or did a little reading, knowing she could just keep an ear out for the kids. The reason I thought that was because I've had that urge myself  To have a kid come over and engage DD while I did my own stuff, and a playmate that fit well enough that there aren't fights or trouble is hitting the jackpot.

So DH asked Dee if she would like to drop her son off here for a playdate. Ostensibly this would give her a break as well. But her son also did not feel ready yet to come over by himself.

So the matter got put to rest for a while but then it came up again. Dee asked DD if she felt she was ready yet. DD said yes (which might be true, but it's also possible that when it comes right down to dropping her off, she might change her mind, dunno). So now DH is scratching his head again trying to figure out Dee's motives.

I think he also posted this question on some forum somewhere, and he got mixed responses - some thought he was crazy to have any concern about this, but others thought he'd be crazy to drop off DD with a woman who obviously has some agenda to get DD alone (lol). On the last bit, I have to agree that Dee does have some sort of motive, it's not just a passing thought, she's brought it up more than once. Of course the motive may be entirely innocent (I'm still sticking with the "break" scenario myself).

Well, what do you think? It seems obvious that I should just outright ask her what her motive is, but it does seem awkward. We are not close friends, just beginning a new friendship.


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## camracrazy (May 27, 2006)

How old are your kids?

It would never occur to me that our friends had a "motive" for asking if our kids (or one of our kids) could come over. I hope my friends don't think that when I ask if their kids can go somewhere with us! If I felt that uncomfortable about the situation, I don't think I would be friends with those people.

I can understand being cautious. My SIL dated a guy that just got out of jail and was a sex offender. When she starting calling asking if our girls could go do xyz with them (before I knew he was a sex offender, she didn't tell anyone) I just had a bad feeling about it and didn't let them go. Later I found the boyfriend listed on the sex offender website for our state. I guess if your DH gets that kind of creepy feeling about your friend asking your dd over, he should listen to it but I also think I would break off the friendship.


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## laohaire (Nov 2, 2005)

It seems normal to ask a kid over, sure.


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## ollyoxenfree (Jun 11, 2009)

Does each family only have 1 child?

I can definitely understand an invitation specific to just the same-age child if they have only 1 child, but you are bringing 2 or 3 or more kids to their house to play. Their child may be wanting to play with his friend and not an entire family of children. They may be a little more sensitive to little conflicts that arise when there are several children than parents who are used to sorting out sibling rivalries. To you, the children may all be playing normally ("the kids play together really well'), but to them it may be a little stressful.

That's leaving aside the stress some people feel about hosting an entire family. For me, even a casual, friendly visit from another family is different than a playdate with just children. I start thinking about scrubbing the bathroom, vacuuming up all the dog hair and planning food. I know I should relax more about it, but I am who I am. People who are introverts may also want to provide a playdate for their child - giving him some social time - without wanting to socialize themselves. Not that they don't want to be friendly and socialize at all with you - maybe just not every time the kids get together.

In general, I see nothing weird or suspect about a child-only invitation. However, if your parental instincts are kicking in and you aren't comfortable with it, then follow your instincts.

Another option is a drop off playdate in a public setting. How about suggesting a park playdate or movie or some other outing in "neutral territory"? One family can drop off their child with the other hosting the outing. Would your DH feel more comfortable if it's in a fairly public place?


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

How old are the kids?

I think kids being invited to each other's houses to play is extremely common, and in and of itself it's not suspicious -- it seems odd for your DH to automatically categorize a play invitation as having some agenda to get your child alone. That said, I'm very cautious about which houses I'll let DS go inside, so I can understand your DH's concerns somewhat. That said, I don't have close friendships with people who I would not trust to be alone with my kids -- the people I'm wary of are on the acquaintance level, like neighbors and classmates I don't know well.


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## Ornery (May 21, 2007)

I'll be another person to chime in and say that it is extremely common to have children visit each other without parents, especially as they get older. I'm really hoping that all the parents that I reach out to on behalf of my daughter to have a playdate don't think I have some nefarious motive! She loves having friends over and, while I enjoy people and consider myself somewhat of an extrovert, I wouldn't want to entertain another adult every single time she has a little friend over. And yes, there are times where she wants someone to come play at our house and is very specific about that, which might be what is going on with "Dee".

I understand being protective of your family, but there is definitely a line between cautious (meeting parents, viewing their home, their parenting style, etc) and alarmist that is hard to find as a mother or father.

ETA: I did want to say though that if your husband has some gut feelings about this woman or family, he should listen to them. I completely believe in honoring our gut feelings.


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## seashells (Jan 23, 2009)

Kids are 4 and 5. They are both onlies. DH and I are both introverts so we can totally understand wanting to provide a playdate for our kid without having to entertain (though I'd feel the urge to clean house anyway - even with a dropoff, the other parent still sees the house. Or maybe that's just because we're pretty messy). Can I just say that this reply box is acting oddly? I had to switch to Source to get this written, I couldn't put my cursor where I wanted and it refused to make a new paragraph (which I could do now in HTML code if I wanted but.. blah).

OK, new paragraph opened manually. I don't doubt that kids have playdates without the parents being there all the time, I guess what bothered DH is that Dee seems to be really emphasizing having DD over "alone" and he's trying to figure out her motives. Which are no doubt completely benign. But I guess he wants to understand them anyway. The introvert possibility is a good one; I think Dee is in fact introverted, and DH would understand that. I think it didn't occur to him because for him, even a dropoff is sort of social, so he'd have to kind of put his social hat on anyway. For me, I'm not bothered, but I completely respect my husband's desire to think this through. I know it's unusual but he's not being irrational, but rather hyper-rational. He is not going to do anything weird like flip out or end the friendship, he's just trying to figure it out so he can feel comfortable.


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## camracrazy (May 27, 2006)

Maybe it would help to know exactly how she is phrasing the request?

Example:

"Hey my son wanted to know if your daughter would like to come over and play. You could just drop her off." That would sound pretty normal to me.

"We'd like your daughter to come over and play sometime without you guys." That would be weirder to me.


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## erinsmom1996 (Apr 9, 2006)

I would guess that she probably does not want to entertain you and the rest of your family and wants some quiet time to get things done or relax while the kids play. That is what I would assume, anyhow. I don't think it is odd to only want the child to come over and not the whole family but that is just me. Unless you or your husband have a reason to mistrust this family or get a really weird vibe from them, I would not worry about it. I know for me I always preferred just my daughter's friends come over unless I was really close with the parents. Otherwise, I had to entertain them and that was not always something I was in the mood to do.


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## Starflower (Sep 25, 2004)

Would you guys be comfortable with your DD going on a play date alone to different person's house? Or is your DH's anxiety only about Dee! If so, is only because the drop-off playdate was her suggestion? Maybe you guys can talk to Dee and let her know that you're just not comfortable with drop-off playdates yet (unless you'd do it with other people). Then you could ask Dee what is her policy on drop-offs just to get an idea of what she is thinking. Or suggest the kids have a drop-off at your house instead. If you feel like Dee checks out OK, you could try doing a very short drop-off to start out and see how it goes. However, if you have reason to think the Dee would harm your child if left alone with her, then your family shouldn't be friends with her family at all.

Good luck with this tricky situation.


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## limabean (Aug 31, 2005)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *seashells*
> 
> Kids are 4 and 5.


Well I'm probably the odd one out, but I wasn't comfortable letting DS go to friends' houses without me until he was 6 (except for his grandparents, aunts, and a couple that we've been friends with forever). But new people like classmates? Yeah, I wasn't cool with that in kindergarten -- luckily most other moms invited both of us over (as I did with them) so it was never an issue. The summer between kindergarten and first grade I started doing some drop-offs with his kindy friends, because by then I felt like I had spent plenty of time at their houses and gotten to know their parents better. It was a really big milestone for me, and I was really nervous about it prior to that, so I can understand the hesitation with kids of that age.

I think there's nothing wrong with taking your time and continuing to do family get-togethers until everyone feels comfortable with it.


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## seashells (Jan 23, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *camracrazy*
> 
> Maybe it would help to know exactly how she is phrasing the request?
> 
> ...


I've actually not heard the request myself, she's only talked to DH about it. I doubt he accurately remembers the phrasing, just that the "by herself" was emphasized to some degree or another.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Starflower*
> 
> Would you guys be comfortable with your DD going on a play date alone to different person's house? Or is your DH's anxiety only about Dee! If so, is only because the drop-off playdate was her suggestion? Maybe you guys can talk to Dee and let her know that you're just not comfortable with drop-off playdates yet (unless you'd do it with other people). Then you could ask Dee what is her policy on drop-offs just to get an idea of what she is thinking. Or suggest the kids have a drop-off at your house instead. If you feel like Dee checks out OK, you could try doing a very short drop-off to start out and see how it goes. However, if you have reason to think the Dee would harm your child if left alone with her, then your family shouldn't be friends with her family at all.
> 
> Good luck with this tricky situation.


DD has not been dropped off anywhere before, so this is kind of a new one for us, and that's probably the bottom line here - that it's new for DH and maybe taking a little getting used to. She has played at a neighbor's house without us before, so I guess that's a dropoff of sorts, but it felt different because it was completely impromptu and unfolded naturally (you know, kids playing in the yard and DD joins, later they run inside to play, etc.).

DH suggested the dropoff at our house, but Dee's son said he wasn't comfortable yet.

Thanks for your input, everyone. The most valuable take-aways I got were the ideas about what Dee is going for, particularly the introvert perspective. I will mention that idea to DH, tell him that dropoffs are common, and also ask him outright if he has any feeling/vibe about Dee other than just wondering why she wants DD to be dropped off. The latter is probably the most important question. I strongly suspect the answer is No, because my DH would not want to hang out with her if he didn't think she was a good person. So given that the request is typical and that all other signs are green, I think he can feel better about the request itself. I know this is weird and overanalytical but I'd rather ask a bunch of strangers on the Internet than ask my mom or something - I'll get better and more honest and more varied responses on a forum and not worry about what you guys think of me and DH, lol. Also, just wanted to assure you all that the reason DH had this concern is not because he's a crazy whack who wants to be weird but because his experience has led him to doubt people's motives, he has seen violence, etc. He is not knee-jerk overprotective (though he is protective), he just likes to think things through until he's satisfied. And then he can be comfortable.


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

My DD is 5 and we haven't done any drop off playdates either. The moms always want to come when she has a friend over here too. If you or your DH is uncomfortable with the idea why don't you just say 4 or 5 is kind of young and we just aren't comfortable with drop off playdates yet, maybe when DD's older.


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## velochic (May 13, 2002)

I was in a similar situation several years ago. My dd was 2 at the time. Very attached, not wanting to be away from me, etc. Through a mom's group, I met another mother who shared a lot of the same philosophies and we hit it off well. Her dd was 2.5 years older and I will just say that she was not a pleasant child for anyone to be around... peers or adults either one. Anyway, the mom asked me many, many times to bring over dd and drop her off. She would say, "Oh, why don't you give yourself a break and let her come over here for the day." I would tell her, "Dd doesn't want to be away from me and I don't need or want a break from her. I enjoy spending time with her." It got to the point where she was bugging me about it every single time and I got to be like your dh... what were her motivations to be so insistent that dd come over ALONE. It really, really gave me the creeps. It was one of many reasons that I quite pointedly ended the friendship. Trust your instinct. If your dh doesn't feel comfortable, then just don't do it.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

You said that your husband is suspicious of others & has good reasons. I'm not asking for details, but I wonder if he has a history of abuse. I know that I never anticipated having such anxiety over my children being alone with others, but I do. It's very difficult for me even to consider my kids going to others' houses, even if those people are our friends. My protective instincts kick in because I was often in vulnerable situations as a child, and I don't think it's necessarily true that if you trust someone as a friend that you have to let your children stay with them. If your husband's situation is similar, I would just say that it's not about this woman, but you're not comfortable with your child staying at someone else's house alone yet.


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## seashells (Jan 23, 2009)

Yes, there was abuse in the home when my husband was a child.


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## D_McG (Jun 12, 2006)

That wouldn't even be on my radar as something weird. I don't do drop off playdates per se but it's normal for moms in my group to watch each other's kids. For years now.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

It is very very normal where I live for kids of that age to play at friends' houses without parents, and in fact it would seem odd around here for parents to expect to always be there as well. The issue is that when the parents are there, you have to entertain the parents, but if you just have kids there they kind of entertain each other and you can keep doing housework or reading your book or whatever. Anyway, I wouldn't worry about the request unless you're getting weird red flags, and your husband has understandable reasons to see red flags where none exist, but it would be best for your kids as they grow and have friends if he would overcome that.


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## MamitaM (Sep 10, 2010)

nak

well i have a history of abuse, i lived with my abusers ( not my parents) for a couple of years and they never allowed me to go to friends homes to play. they would only allow my friends to plat at our house. they also didn't to many of my friends parents coming in. i don't know dee, but i'd really wait until the feeling your husband has passes.


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## AllisonR (May 5, 2006)

Maybe the kids want this? My kids are 4 and 6 and often ask if so-and-so can come over to play one day, or even try to invite themselves over to their friends house. They just think it is so much fun. Sometimes they ask when they are home, so the other child's parents might not know about it, and I might just ask the parent myself. Something like "DS and XYZ like to play together. Can XYZ come over to play one afternoon; how is your schedule?"

Plus, I figure if XYZ comes over here one day, then another day XYZ's parents may invite my DS or DD to come play over there. That gives me either a break and/ or some one-on-one time with my other child


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## mrspineau (Jan 15, 2008)

I would be on the suspicious camp as well. I don't know why there would be a need to get the child to come alone, if she wanted a break, she would more likely ask you to watch her child I would think. I think it's a weird request.


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## mkksmom (Mar 24, 2008)

I think like others have stated, she might just be looking to have the kids play together without having to do a big formal gathering. However, this is something where you have to trust your gut, get to know them better. My 6 YO is allowed to have play dates without me at 2 other homes. There is someone asking if she can come to his house to play and I know from another mom that there isn't a lot of supervision there, so I am stalling.


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## pianojazzgirl (Apr 6, 2006)

I guess I'm with the pps who don't see anything inherently suspicious in her invitation. I can totally see a) not wanting to host other adults (I too am an introvert), b) having a playmate for my kid as a way of "giving me a break", c) having the hope that if we do the playdate at my house one time then the next time maybe the other parents would offer to host my kid for a playdate, d) having the idea that the other parents needed a break for whatever reason so wanting to offer that without overtly offering it (if that makes sense).

I also agree that the way Dee is phrasing her invitation would make a difference as to whether flags were being raised. It seems a bit tricky as you are getting the filtered-through-dh version, and as you mentioned your dh is particularly sensitive/cautious due to his past experiences. His own interpretation/understanding of her invite might be a bit skewed (perhaps overly focussing on the "alone" part and not hearing much else) because of where he's coming from.


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## LynnS6 (Mar 30, 2005)

Could you call and talk to the mom? I think unless you actually hear how she's phrased it, you won't be comfortable in your decision. Your husband's filter is set very high because of his past experiences, so you need to see what your gut tells you when she talks.

Age 4-5 is when my kids started having playdates without a parent present. While I'd find it odd to have a first playdate at age 5 without the parents, I wouldn't find it out of the ordinary, and if the kids have played together before, I wouldn't find it odd at all. I can easily see why having kids over to play is different from having a family over. It's a different kind of playdate, and if she doesn't feel like entertaining, it makes sense to me. It may well be a break from her in that she doesn't need to entertain her child, even if she does have to monitor them.


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## Cascadian (Jan 28, 2009)

Children coming over by themselves after age 4 is the norm. TBH it would irritate me to also have to entertain the parents every.single.time the kids wanted to play together. We call it 'babysitting by playdate' - the kids are entertained and I can get some work/cleaning done. I also don't see anything inherently suspicious and given your DH's history of abuse, I'd say that his spidey sense is all out of whack - he's filtering really innocent things with the ears of an abused child, so everything looks like potential abuse. That's really the exception, not the norm in the world. If your child is verbal, even more so to not be worried about what might happen.

Sorry, I think it's fine and that your DH needs counselling. I'd hate to see the trajectory of that thought pattern as your child grew older and came into constant contact with strangers - your DH might have a breakdown or something.


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

I see nothing weird with the request, that is a pretty common request. She may have an icky feeling about your dh because he seems too overprotective and she is misinterpreting that as a sign of possible abuse, especially if your child seems to be more cautious than other kids or he shadows her a lot when at gatherings with them and that would explain why she isn't taking you up on having her child over at your house.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *One_Girl*
> 
> I see nothing weird with the request, that is a pretty common request. She may have an icky feeling about your dh because he seems too overprotective and she is misinterpreting that as a sign of possible abuse, especially if your child seems to be more cautious than other kids or he shadows her a lot when at gatherings with them and that would explain why she isn't taking you up on having her child over at your house.


Yikes. If there were any possibility of anyone feeling like THAT about my dh, I definitely wouldn't want such a person in my life or around my child! I mean, if that were the case then, yuck, she might be trying to get the OP's child alone to find out what "really" goes on in the OP's home "behind closed doors." Yuck, yuck, yuck. I honestly wasn't thinking the other mom had any weird motive until I read this thought. Double yuck!

Of course, I don't really think it's likely that she has an icky feeling about the OP's husband. After all, he is the one she's been putting all the requests to. What I did feel, OP, when you said that she'd been saying all this to your husband and not to you, was that I would find that very annoying. Of course, I know nothing about your family situation, but in my family and the other families I know, moms usually handle all that kind of stuff. I'm not saying that's the way it "has" to be or anything, but if someone were trying to handle all this stuff with my husband, I'd feel kind of like they were trying to override me.

Not out of any weird motive, but just because maybe they might be assuming my husband would be more likely to say "Sure," and then it might be harder for me to back out of it if I didn't feel comfortable. It does seem more likely that she just wants a break, though kind of weird that she keeps asking your dd if she's ready rather than just dropping off her own son.


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## Mammajamma (Feb 9, 2008)

I think your dh has his wits about him and if there is a gut instinct there to protect your dd I would say go with it! He sounds like a parent who is aware of the dangers that are out there and cares enough about his daughter to question other's motives. It would make my tail bone tingle too, she sounds like she has an agenda and I am not sure of the innocence of it due to her own son not being willing to go to your house- she should naturally assume your daughter feels likewise not continue to persist in pressuring her to feel ready. It also strikes me as strange that this adult woman ventured so far as to ask your daughter a second time rather than ask you, that is certainly not polite imo.


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## seashells (Jan 23, 2009)

Thanks again for replies. Nothing new to add, just had the urge to reply I guess. While my DH might be overprotective about this particular request, I doubt Dee is feeling weird vibes from him because it's really just this request that is making him feel weird (and whatever else you're thinking, like DH doesn't let DD do anything without him breathing down her neck, isn't so - at the playground he is more than happy to relax on a bench and let her run off and play, etc.). Who knows, though. I think like most others do, that she just wants to get some social time for her son while getting a break for herself. The fact that the requests are going to DH and not me is not weird - DH is the primary parent and will take DD places while I'm working. So he is the one to run into her at the usual haunts that parents go to. It's not like she's calling DH's cell phone and not mine or something (in fact, there are no calls at all, things have all been arranged from face to face). Not relevant to this discussion, but it just so happens that Dee's husband and I are usually the ones to run into each other in different kinds of circumstances.

I tentatively brought up the subject with DH in an indirect way and he didn't want to talk about it and I let it drop. I don't think anything needs to be done, anyway. If DH were weirdly overprotective overall, I'd be concerned, but it just seems to be this particular thing that he's digging in about. I think this will just play itself out naturally one way or another - either Dee will take a hint and let it drop for a while and then maybe the idea will seem more natural in time. Or Dee will persist and make ME start to wonder what's up. Or the friendship will fade out if it's not meeting Dee's needs (meaning that she's not looking for so much adult socializing, only for her son, and if we don't seem to be the right fit for what she's looking for then I'm sure things will fade out naturally). If that happens, that's fine, that's life. It's gotta work for everybody.

A PP referenced DH's "spidey sense" being out of whack - that is a cool term for it. I dunno if it's out of whack or spot on for this issue, but he sure does have a spidey sense for people, that's for sure. I've even observed other people be impressed with his ability. But I don't think his spidey sense is going off for Dee. I think it's just the request. But that's just my guess.

And who knows, maybe it is still a little early anyway, DD has now been over their house twice and Dee's son over ours once. Maybe enough for many people, but not like it's been a ridiculous number of times. Well, we'll see how it unfolds.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mammal_mama*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


This hardly seems like it would be a fair reaction since the OPs family has suspicions about the people who asked in the first place. It's OK for person A to suspect person B, but it's then terrible for person B to have any suspicions about person A?


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## One_Girl (Feb 8, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I agree with that. I was very overprotective and hovered a lot when my dd was little because I had issues of my own and was very nervous about things (my mother encouraged that too because she didn't feel like she had protected me enough so it made it hard to resist feeling like I needed to hover and protect too much). I did put a lot of people off by my hovering and didn't realize it until a mom of one of dd's friends brought it up. I have worked very hard since then to not be that mom and I have succeeded for the most part. I don't know the full extent of what people thought, but I do know that my dd got less opportunities for making friends despite really being outgoing and wanting to make friends until I realized what I was doing and worked on it. I don't think that it is something to cut people out of your life over, I think it is something to be aware of and to work on.

Also, I too was on the bench at the park, but I hovered in a lot of other ways even from the bench and your husband may be also. It is something that you may want to point out when he is more receptive so he can reflect on whether he needs to work on that aspect of his personality. Abuse has long ongoing effects that shape our actions even without us meaning for it to. Being made aware of how it shaped my reactions helped me and my dd.


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## texmati (Oct 19, 2004)

If it was us... I'd expect she doesn't want to cook. My aunts (and I do it too) often used to invite us over 'just us'. Inviting the parents elevates a the occasion from ritz crackers and cut fruit to tea or a full meal.

Also how/when was the invite given? My dh and I 'split shifts' so he is there quite often in the afternoon. We are pretty conservative, and I can imagine a scenario where another SAHM may have felt ok having a playdate with my kid in the afternoon, but not my kid *and* my DH. (And there is nothing creepy about my DH... we just run in conservative circles.)


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## [email protected] (Sep 7, 2010)

Motive? I don't understand. My friends and I swap childcare like this, it's a great playdate for the kids & gives the adults a break for a few hours. This is normal behavior, in my opinion. My son has been having sleep overs at 2 different friends' houses since he was 4, and finds them to be really fun. We enjoy having friends' kids over here b/c it gives our son a chance to share his room/toys w/ another kid (a sense of pride/fun for him), and b/c it keeps our only child occupied w/ play for a few hours.


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## [email protected] (Sep 7, 2010)

Yes, since you're looking for a motive, this is the most obvious one. It's why my friends and I let our kids visit alone. It's a break for the parents, and fun for the kids. I'm just so surprised that anyone would suspect anything else if they have been friends for 7 years. The mom has probably asked several times b/c she's ready for the next stage, one of some kid (and parent) independence, and she knows that your kids would have fun together. Do you think perhaps that you & your husband are a tad overprotective? Something to consider.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *seashells*
> 
> I told DH I thought Dee wanted DD to come over by herself to give Dee a sort of a break. Since the kids play together so well, they could entertain each other while Dee maybe got things done around the house or did a little reading, knowing she could just keep an ear out for the kids. The reason I thought that was because I've had that urge myself  To have a kid come over and engage DD while I did my own stuff, and a playmate that fit well enough that there aren't fights or trouble is hitting the jackpot.


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## [email protected] (Sep 7, 2010)

Oh, this explains your husband's reaction. I'm sorry that this brings up bad memories and feelings. It may take him a little longer to trust other people, perfectly understandable.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *seashells*
> 
> Yes, there was abuse in the home when my husband was a child.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

mamazee, I actually wasn't saying that anyone should be suspicious of anyone else in this scenario. I think I should have been clearer. It just struck me that One_Girl's post, which seemed to be an attempt to reassure seashells, would have had the complete opposite effect on me.

seashells, since your husband is the main one accompanying your daughter for playdates, it does make total sense that she'd be making these arrangements with him and not you. I apologize for thinking that her going to him might be some attempt to override you. And yet, I do agree with what Mammajamma said about it not being polite for her to go directly to your dd about this. I do think this could be an attempt to force the issue, because it puts a hesitant parent in the position of no longer being able to say, "She's just not ready to be away from me yet," and having to either give in come right out and say, "I'M the one who's not completely comfortable with the situation!"

I also agree with what Mammajamma said about this woman pushing the issue with your daughter when she's not willing to push it with her own son.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Hmm, the whole gender thing DOES give me fruit for thought.

I can totally see a SAHM feeling a little weird having a man (even a male friend) over during the day while her partner was gone. Not necessarily even because she worries about the friend or because her partner cares about that, but appearances or feeling weird because of the way she was raised.

And...well, given the amount of prejudice and suspicion I have seen on MDC towards male caregivers and babysitters, that I believe is reflected in the general population, I wonder if perhaps that does not play into things here. A lot of people who are squicked out because of the alone request, I wonder how many of them would allow their kiddo to go over alone to a house where the supervisor will be a man?

While I am often frustrated with the bias here, because it's unusual I do think that sometimes people are hesitate without even really thinking about why.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Great points, Tigerchild! Now I'm actually wondering, for those of you who think the OP's dh is overreacting by not feeling comfortable by this woman's repeated requests for him to send his child over alone, would you also see it as overreacting if it were a *father* requesting that just the OP's child and not the parents come to visit in his home? You know, sometimes dads might prefer a crackers-n-fruit playdate over having to cook, too.


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## [email protected] (Sep 7, 2010)

My child has played at 4 different houses where the supervising parent is a dad. He has had sleep-overs w/ 2 of these kids, and sometimes the dad is present rather than the mom. I trust these dads, and got to know them for a few months to years beforehand, of course. And in all these cases, the moms are great & have excellent communication and relationships w/ their husbands. My child seems happy and healthy, without any trauma. So I feel very, very comfortable w/ our decisions.

So personally, my comfort level is based on how well I know the parent, my gut feelings, and my child's response. Gender is a low-level consideration initially, and then becomes an irrelevant factor once a decision is made as to whether our child has a relationship or not w/ a particular family.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

My dd is often at playdates with just a father there as the responsible adult, to answer mammal_mama's question. I think it's fair for parents to want their children to be able to play with friends without having to entertain the parents, and I think it's unusual starting around the age of this child to expect to be at the home where your child is playing. I think this is the beginning of something that will be a regular occurrence, and the OP's child will not have as many play opportunities as he could if he isn't allowed to play at friends' houses without a parent.


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## Tigerchild (Dec 2, 2001)

Personally, I probably wouldn't (depending on how well I knew the dad). DH is a WAHD, and DD's best friend's dad WAH too (or is the parent that works/stays at home during school holidays/inservice days). So whenever we trade off having the girls for a no-school day, it's pretty much this dad that takes care of them over at BFF's house. I really like BFF Dad, and trust him. Whenever DD hangs out over there she is often gone all day, goes out and about on errands with them, no worries. He was the first non-parent I allowed to take out DD (to the movies) when she was still on crutches after breaking her leg this summer, and he and BFF mom are emergency contacts and have pick up privledges for DD at school. 

But...I dunno, I would be really really happy to see more SAH Daddies and WAH Daddies around, but even in my pretty progressive, telecommuting friendly area they are rare--or when I have met mamas married to them they get all stressed out explaining that Dad is home until I say , "zOMG how awesome, DH is WAH too isn't that great?!?!" So I get the impression that it is still unusual and might be "weird" in some areas still.

If I had weird feelings for any parent regardless of gender I wouldn't send my kid over unaccompanied. But I don't think my feelings would be tripped just because of a penis. I will admit to other prejudices though--if I know someone is arch conservative religious, it gives me pause because of historical baggage on my part, I am only comfortable with gun owners who feel similarly as I do about safety issues (I do have friends who have firearms that the kids go over to play at their house all the time, but I know these people and have seen their storage and safety measures that they proactively offered, so...). So I do think everyone has their inner squickiness part that isn't always ruled by true true instinct, if that makes sense.


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## newbymom05 (Aug 13, 2005)

I haven't let my 5.5 y/o go alone to a playdate yet, but if I knew the parents, I doubt I'd hesitate all that much. We invited a classmate/neighbor over, and I was surprised when the mother (whom I had never met) came with him and stayed the whole time. That was fine and it was nice to meet her, but it was definitely more exhausting for introverted me. The OP's DH may be on to something, but personally, I'd invite "just" the child assuming a)it'd be easier for me and b)it wouldn't be an issue since we all knew each other.


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## seashells (Jan 23, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mamazee*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


I'm sure Dee would not be thrilled knowing my husband's reaction either. It is what it is. I sure wouldn't want any hurt feelings going either way though.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *texmati*
> 
> If it was us... I'd expect she doesn't want to cook. My aunts (and I do it too) often used to invite us over 'just us'. Inviting the parents elevates a the occasion from ritz crackers and cut fruit to tea or a full meal.
> 
> Also how/when was the invite given? My dh and I 'split shifts' so he is there quite often in the afternoon. We are pretty conservative, and I can imagine a scenario where another SAHM may have felt ok having a playdate with my kid in the afternoon, but not my kid *and* my DH. (And there is nothing creepy about my DH... we just run in conservative circles.)


Yeah, it's hard to give the full context in a post. Couple of things - one is that I've always been along for the official playdates (usually not the chance encounters though). But the other thing is that I would say DH and Dee are probably more of the friends anyway. Just to forestall any comments, there, I personally have zero issue with that, nada, none. I don't know what Dee and her husband think, but I doubt it's the reason she has made the request given that I've always come along too.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *[email protected]*
> 
> Yes, since you're looking for a motive, this is the most obvious one. It's why my friends and I let our kids visit alone. It's a break for the parents, and fun for the kids. I'm just so surprised that anyone would suspect anything else if they have been friends for 7 years. The mom has probably asked several times b/c she's ready for the next stage, one of some kid (and parent) independence, and she knows that your kids would have fun together. Do you think perhaps that you & your husband are a tad overprotective? Something to consider.
> 
> ...


Just to clarify, we haven't been friends for 7 years - merely known of them that long (Dee's husband works in the same building - not even same company - I used to, and was sort of friends with my boss, that sort of thing. Not friends.). The kids haven't even played together that much. And DD has only been over their house twice, and their son over ours once. I really don't think that makes us freaky overprotective, it really is a pretty new friendship.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mammal_mama*
> 
> mamazee, I actually wasn't saying that anyone should be suspicious of anyone else in this scenario. I think I should have been clearer. It just struck me that One_Girl's post, which seemed to be an attempt to reassure seashells, would have had the complete opposite effect on me.
> 
> ...


No apologies necessary, I can see why that might seem weird without all the context that is hard to give. Just to repeat what I said above in this same post, I don't think it's about her feeling weird about DH since I joined (or "did") the 3 arranged playdates we've had so far. I still think she just wants a break and doesn't want to go all out entertaining, very understandable.


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## LROM (Sep 10, 2008)

OOP I feel very strongly that your DH is NOT overreacting. I felt that way even before reading that he has experienced abuse. I know way way too many exxamples of people not trusting their parental instincts and then later regretting it than I do parents trusting themselves and feeling like idiots later.

Andits not like you and Dee have been over to each other's houses with your kids a bunch of times either. It's completely reasonable to want to get to know them better before sending your daughter alone.

Another thing, its not like your daughter is initiating this; sounds like she's been just fine with the pace of getting to know them.

In your situation next time Dee asks for your dd to go alone maybe respond with "we're not ready for dd to go to anyone's house alone yet but if you're comfy with that your ds is welcome over here." If she questions your choice or pushes it anymore then just come out and say "Seems"Seems like its particularly important to you that our dd come to you alone, why is that?" It doesn't have to be suspicios, that is a very fair question that you can ask almost as an observation.

Your dh doesn't sound the slightest bit paranoid... it would raise my antennae too if someone repeatedly requested my kid come alone. If its innocent than Dee will have no prob eiather letting her son go to you or doing playdates at your house if its about her not wanting to host.

Get to know Dee and her family better and see how you feel later. Don't feel bad about taking your time, there's no reason to rush it, and if Dee has prob withit maybe its not a great friend match anyway.


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## gbailey (Mar 10, 2009)

Great post!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LROM*
> 
> OOP I feel very strongly that your DH is NOT overreacting. I felt that way even before reading that he has experienced abuse. I know way way too many exxamples of people not trusting their parental instincts and then later regretting it than I do parents trusting themselves and feeling like idiots later.
> 
> ...


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## phathui5 (Jan 8, 2002)

Quote:


> I guess what bothered DH is that Dee seems to be really emphasizing having DD over "alone" and he's trying to figure out her motives


Maybe her son wants to have her come play but she doesn't like entertaining another adult.


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## childsplay (Sep 4, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *seashells*
> 
> Kids are 4 and 5.


Too me, that's young to be going over to someone's house alone. While I'm totally under-protective of my kids around most areas, I'm completely over-protective when it comes to this subject. DS, 8, just had his FIRST after school 'playdate' (for lack of a better word) at a friend's house by himself - and we've known this family for years. I guess I just got burned pretty bad as a kid going over a to 'trusted' friend's house - the father repeatedly exposed himself to me and would terrorize me by locking me in the dark bathroom with him - so IMO, if you're questioning it at all, I'd say no thanks.


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

OP, I think you're right to honor your dh's feelings about this. You believe he's being rational about it, then fine, that's it. I think you can handle this delicately and avoid any hurt feelings. There are two clear reasons to not have this play date. One, your dh is uneasy about it. Two, the kids are only 4 and 5 y.o. which some people believe is too young yet. So IF the mom asks why you aren't allowing the play date then you can honestly explain that your child simply isn't mature enough, but (excitedly) you look forward to doing this in a few months (or a year or whenever). It's not a big deal if you present it as not a big deal.

Like other say, if Dee has a problem with it... well, that's unfortunate but you haven't done anything wrong and perhaps that tells you something about her.

Childsplay, holy cow you poor thing.


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## *bejeweled* (Jul 16, 2003)

I say go with your DH's gut and let it play itself out. She shouldn't keep persisting. That would make me feel weird about it.


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## Hoopin' Mama (Sep 9, 2004)

My friend has asked if ds can come sleepover when her older children have their friends over. I guess so her youngest doesn't feel left out. I don't think it's weird.

But there's nothing wrong with putting it off for a while if you think that's best.


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## LoMaH (May 21, 2007)

This is different because in your case, you know the motive. The issue is that Dee keeps pushing the issue.

If it were us, we'd wait until (when/if) we felt comfortable with it.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Hoopin' Mama*
> 
> My friend has asked if ds can come sleepover when her older children have their friends over. I guess so her youngest doesn't feel left out. I don't think it's weird.
> 
> But there's nothing wrong with putting it off for a while if you think that's best.


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## meemee (Mar 30, 2005)

seashells i think this is the FIRST time for your DH. and he is having a hard time. i think this is the test to see what his feelings are about.

the gender thing does not bother me. esp. in this case when the families are not strangers. many times dd has playdates when only the father is home. i may not be friends wiht the father but we have met and i feel ok with them. in fact there is not a single family at school i feel strange about.

dd is 8 now. for the last year i have not known the father that dd has gone over to play at. she has been going for playdates since she was 6 - many cases we didnt really know the parents. in fact now we parents are becoming friends because our children want to play.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

To me, this isn't about this specific request, or Dee. The OP's kids are at the very beginning age where kids start going on playdates alone, so this is new but will become regular. The OP's dh's fear is coming from an unhealthy place - a history of abuse. Understandable, but unhealthy. It will negatively affect their children if he does not allow normal childhood play (such as playdates without a parent) and also if he fears everyone for things as little as wanting the children to play without having to entertain an adult. Fearing everyone is as useless in keeping kids safe as fearing no one. You have to have a healthy judgement over what is normal and what is not. I think it would help the OP's dh both in his role as a parent and for his own anxiety to get some help for the trauma he's suffered. It's very understandable that he feels the way he does, but it isn't healthy for him or the children to hold onto those fears and let that affect how the family approaches normal childhood life.


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## DasMaedchen (May 10, 2008)

Personally I would feel uncomfortable about this and would not let my daughter go. And to me it does sound weird/creepy that she is putting emphasis on your daughter coming to their house by herself.


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## berry987 (Apr 23, 2008)

This was my first thought. I have a 4 and 6 yo and they both have "alone" playdates often (at our house or others). We have someone else's child in our house almost daily. They love having friends over, but I would go crazy if their friends moms came every single time, even though I am friends with most of their moms. It's seems very normal and innocent to me.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *phathui5*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Great post, LROM!

Also, I really have a problem with the idea expressed by some that a "history of abuse" is any kind of a reason not to take oneself seriously. Remember, the OP's husband was the victim and not the perpetrator. He doesn't deserve to go through life with "history of abuse" tacked on to him, forever affecting his wife's ability to take his parental hunches seriously. I'm not saying that seashells has let this affect her respect for her husband's opinions -- it just seems that some here are encouraging her to let this be a factor in how she hears what he has to say.

I personally would have an issue with anyone who kept trying to push the issue like Dee has, even to the point of going directly to my child. I'm not saying this necessarily makes her a predator, but she is clearly trying to get the OP's child to do something while respecting her own child's hesitance to do the same.

And, though I'm glad to hear that so many folks are cool about dads handling playdates, I DO think that if the situation were reversed and the OP's husband were asking Dee to drop her son off alone, and even going past Dee to push the issue directly with the child, some of the same people who think the Dad is overreacting here might see the situation differently if it were Dee writing here about the pushy Dad. Sometimes it helps me to look at situations from a lot of different angles, but if anyone here finds this last paragraph unhelpful, please feel free to ignore it. I'm bringing the issue up again now because some seemed to think that I was asking about their views on dads handling playdates, when really I was specifically asking how they would react to a dad who was behaving in the same way that Dee was. To me, looking at it from another angle is a useful way of bringing more objectivity into the situation.


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## mamazee (Jan 5, 2003)

The OP specifically said that his history of abuse could be clouding his judgement. Being the victim doesn't change that. It isn't about justice or what anyone deserves, it's about the reality of the situation. Reality isn't always fair. His view of "normal" has been clouded by something that happend to him.

Quote:


> Also, I really have a problem with the idea expressed by some that a "history of abuse" is any kind of a reason not to take oneself seriously. Remember, the OP's husband was the victim and not the perpetrator. He doesn't deserve to go through life with "history of abuse" tacked on to him, forever affecting his wife's ability to take his parental hunches seriously.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Mamazee, if, as you say, the OP has said that her husband's abuse "could be clouding his judgment," how is this tantamount to saying what you've just said here: "His view of 'normal' has been clouded by something that happend to him"? She said it could have an effect, and you are assuming that it definitively does.

I don't think he's out-of-line for not liking the way Dee keeps pushing the matter. I also think the OP's child has plenty of time to get comfortable with the idea of going on her own to playdates. I realize some children are doing this by age 4 or 5 or even younger, but others don't start until they're older and they still enjoy themselves just fine. If the OP's child is perfectly happy doing things as she's now doing them, what's the rush?


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## journeymom (Apr 2, 2002)

I could not find where the OP said her dh's judgment is clouded. What the OP said about her dh:

Quote:


> For me, I'm *not bothered*, but I completely respect my husband's desire to think this through. I know it's unusual but he's *not being irrational,* but rather hyper-rational. He is not going to do anything weird like flip out or end the friendship, he's just trying to figure it out so he can feel comfortable.


Quote:


> Also, just wanted to assure you all that the reason DH had this concern is not because he's a crazy whack who wants to be weird but because his experience has led him to doubt people's motives, he has seen violence, etc. He is not knee-jerk overprotective (though he is protective), he just likes to think things through until he's satisfied. And then he can be comfortable.


Quote:


> To me, this isn't about this specific request, or Dee. The OP's kids are at the very beginning age where kids start going on playdates alone, so this is new but will become regular. The OP's dh's fear is coming from an unhealthy place - a history of abuse. Understandable, but unhealthy. It will negatively affect their children if he does not allow normal childhood play (such as playdates without a parent) and also if he fears everyone for things as little as wanting the children to play without having to entertain an adult. Fearing everyone is as useless in keeping kids safe as fearing no one. You have to have a healthy judgment over what is normal and what is not. I think it would help the OP's dh both in his role as a parent and for his own anxiety to get some help for the trauma he's suffered. It's very understandable that he feels the way he does, but it isn't healthy for him or the children to hold onto those fears and let that affect how the family approaches normal childhood life.


In every way that the OP has described her dh's attitude, which is the only way we can know him, he comes across as a reasonable person, as well as more cautious than some of us here would be. Considering his past his caution is understandable, reasonable and far from unhealthy or unsound.

It's just a play date. The OP's dh is not refusing to let their child have normal childhood experiences. He's not shutting their dd in. If it reassures the DH to put off a solo playdate for a while, that just isn't unreasonable.


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## seashells (Jan 23, 2009)

Well, the abuse thing goes both ways. It might be a factor clouding my DH's judgment. At the same time, it might be a factor clarifying his judgment. I won't claim that I know he's right, but I will repeat that his sense of people has often been eerily accurate. None of us can really know for sure what is going on. DH could be far off the mark or spot on or something inbetween.

Either way, it's not crazy to worry about sending a 5 year old to somebody's house alone when you don't know them that well - someone on this very thread proved that such things can go very wrong. I know that the general consensus on MDC is that abuse and such is very, very rare, and that it's crazy to spend any time even considering that it's possible, yet when I look around it seems like it's extremely common. There was abuse in my in-law's family. My mother was physically and sexually abused and abandoned. My father was at least semi-neglected (there may be more I'm not aware of). My best friend was sexually abused by her father and committed suicide. Sure, you can say my judgment is "clouded" by all this, but if it's so common that I have so many examples of abuse to "cloud" my judgment, that tells you that hurting children is not some bizarre thing that only happens to 0.00001% of the population, like a lot of people seem to think. So I'm not particularly affected by arguments of that sort, I regard them as naive and move on.

I know what I wrote is going to be taken totally out of context, though, and I'll try hard to answer what is no doubt coming: no, just because abuse is common doesn't mean a thing about Dee's intentions. There are several things going on that people are responding to - some might be answering from the perspective of what Dee is likely trying to do, others are looking at DH's perceptions. And the two may or may not be related. Personally, as I think I've implied throughout the thread, I think Dee's intentions are entirely benign. Even so, I don't consider it necessary to force the issue. I think it would be crazier to try to force my DH to be comfortable sending DD alone to a woman's house she's only been to twice (and don't forget, I'm not even sure if DD herself would be on board) than to just let things unfold in their own time.

No, reality isn't always fair. But none of you don't know the reality, and I don't claim to know it either. We just don't, we just make the best decisions we can and go with it. Personally, I choose to be supportive of my DH in my way rather than force an issue which doesn't really have much benefit in being forced. Just because any of you think that "reality" is that my DH is being paranoid (or, on the other side of the coin, that Dee's intentions are nefarious) just doesn't make it so.


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## Cascadian (Jan 28, 2009)

nm. Not invested enough.


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## seashells (Jan 23, 2009)

I take exception to your black and white view. I don't mind at all that some people have weighed in and said that they wouldn't think twice about the situation. Good to know.

But you have decided that my husband's perceptions are pathological. You have decided I'm an enabler. Even though this situation is clearly *not* black and white - plenty of people in this thread have said their antennae would go up.

What exactly is my 5 year old oblivious to? How did you leap to the very bizarre conclusion that when middle school hits we're going to be dealing with all these pathological issues? Because we're not entirely ready to send our 5 year old to a playdate alone to somebody's house she's only been to twice? I guess to be normal and healthy we should be shuffling her out the door the moment someone requests it (nevermind that SHE hasn't requested it).

It's utterly bizarre to me to read evidence that people think that they know exactly what a situation is - and wow, you can even foresee the future of entirely unrelated events! Again, you'll note I haven't bristled at people who thought DH MIGHT be overreacting. Only to you, who says he absolutely IS.

Oh, by the way, it's a little ironic that you say that people's experiences warp their perceptions. I think that your experiences in counseling must have warped yours.


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## *bejeweled* (Jul 16, 2003)

and







to Seashells. I'd also be highly offended by that post.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *seashells*
> 
> I take exception to your black and white view. I don't mind at all that some people have weighed in and said that they wouldn't think twice about the situation. Good to know.
> 
> But you have decided that my husband's perceptions are pathological. You have decided I'm an enabler. Even though this situation is clearly *not* black and white


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## Cascadian (Jan 28, 2009)

.


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Seashells, I'd be offended, too, by the assumption that your dh is warped. I agree with you that it's cool that some posters would see no red flags in the situation you've described -- and it's also cool that some of us would, like your dh, be a little put off by Dee's seeming pushiness about the whole matter. It's just kind of weird that she can accept her own son's unreadiness to go to your house alone -- but isn't willing to just let things unfold naturally with your dd. I'm not saying it means she has ulterior motives -- but I can't help wondering, why the hurry? Of course, I say this from the perspective of being a mom with a 5 and 10yo, so I know how quickly kids grow, and today's issues become non-issues and then new issues take their place, LOL.

And I absolutely agree with you that it's silly to think that a child who's not ready to go alone to playdates at age five is going to still not be ready in middle school! This reminds me of the folks who say things like, "If you don't wean your baby from the breast by age one and have her using the toilet by age two, she'll still be nursing and wearing diapers when she goes off to college."

I have to remember that many people really *do* believe that there's no such thing as an inner clock, and that kids won't develop unless they're forced to, you know, kind of like how it's so useful to pry open the petals of those roses. Those of us who trust our children and follow their lead are actually seen as "warped" by many. Oh well. I wish them good luck dealing with their prejudices!


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## ssh (Aug 12, 2007)

Wow, sorry this thread has gotten judgmental and insulting. I think your DH is being perfectly reasonable and see value in his trusting his instincts.

I think using caution in making decisions that effect our children is better than ignoring our instincts and inner voices. I've already said that our 5 year old doesn't do drop off playdates yet. There are a couple of moms I'd trust enough to drop my DD off with them, but I know them a lot better than 3 playdates and we've still just had parent child playdates so far. For example, one mom is also the 2s and 3s teacher at our co-op preschool. Our kids were in the same class last year so I've seen personally how patient she is with children. Her DS has a very high energy inquisitive temperament, just like my DD. I've seen enough of her gentle respectful parenting style enough to know she'd deal appropriately with any situations that could arise while my DD was at her house. I couldn't begin to count the number of times my DD has been around her and interacted with her.

Not being comfortable dropping my DD off at a friends house when I don't know the parent extremely well doesn't mean I think some one wants to abuse her. It does mean that I'm not sure if other parents would deal with my DD in a way I approve of in all possible situations. It also means I don't think my 5 year is emotionally equipped to deal with a caregiver with a vastly differing parenting style yet. I've also said the kids my DD is friends with don't seem to do drop off play dates except for a few close long term friendships. I don't know if it's because we're mostly moms from the co-op preschool or if it's just my community. Maybe parents who choose a co-op find personally supervising their young children a more important issue, or again it could just be my community.


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## rightkindofme (Apr 14, 2008)

I am apparently on the far edge of the bell curve in comfort about this stuff--my daughter frequently goes on playdates (we just call them babysitting) without me and she's only 2.5. Mostly with a couple of awesome mamas I met through MDC (*wave*) but also with other people I have known for years. It was especially common towards the end of my last heinous pregnancy. We are currently starting a babysitting co-op and we will be doing way more of this in the months to come.

So now that I have established that I am WAY more liberal on this issue than most folks in this thread... if your husband feels funny I wouldn't question it in the slightest and I would be 100% supportive of him being nervous. I also have a history of extreme abuse and I completely trust my spidey sense. I turn down or accept playdates/babysitting based on my gut instinct about people. I'm very quick to judge people and I haven't been wrong in a very long time. I don't feel bad in the slightest about saying, "I don't feel comfortable with that". Go you and your husband for doing what feels right for your family.  We have an awesome mama in our playgroup who is really uncomfortable with the idea of joining a babysitting co-op with so young a child and I 100% support her in that decision. My theory is that at the end of the day we are all going to have to face ourselves in the mirror for the rest of our lives. We should worry only about what makes ourselves happy/comfortable/safe and not prioritize other peoples desires.


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## milkybean (Mar 19, 2008)

"Also, I really have a problem with the idea expressed by some that a "history of abuse" is any kind of a reason not to take oneself seriously. Remember, the OP's husband was the victim and not the perpetrator. He doesn't deserve to go through life with "history of abuse" tacked on to him, forever affecting his wife's ability to take his parental hunches seriously. I'm not saying that seashells has let this affect her respect for her husband's opinions -- it just seems that some here are encouraging her to let this be a factor in how she hears what he has to say."

I agree.

My husband experienced abuse from a cousin when he was a child, and decades later he was watching how his sister's daughter was interacting with our son, and he got the huge heebeejeebees. He spoke up to me, we quietly changed the situation, and we've now just casually not let the girl be alone with DS at all. Before that, though, I posted on a very mainstream (not parenting-specific but with a lot of different people of different backgrounds) board about the exact situation, and every single person, to a one, agreed with my husband that her behavior was WAY off for a girl of her age, and that he was right to speak up.

I would have thought "oh, cousins don't do that to cousins, you're being silly", and in fact I did, sort of, think that. My good-cousin past blinded me to the reality of what might have been going on with this cousins of my son.

If the friend were saying "my son wants to have a playdate, can she come over" that's VERY different than the adult just asking for a child to come over. But then I wouldn't be sending a 5 year old to play with a 4 year old without me there...too young for me! Unless it were a babysitting situation where I needed the help (but the one alone babysitting time DS had with his own grandma went weird, when she invited some friend over, a friend who weirded my son out so much he still, 2 years later, thinks about it, but he never had the words to describe how she weirded him out).

If Dee's son isn't ready for alone-playdates yet, surely she can understand that your daughter isn't either.


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## montlake (Mar 13, 2008)

I totally agree that if your husband is not comfortable with it, then no way should you do it.

I wonder if her child is having some separation anxiety and she thinks if he sees a friend he likes going to play dates alone, it will inspire him to give it a try?


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## OkiMom (Nov 21, 2007)

Personally if one parent has an issue with the play date it doesn't happen. I have a history of abuse and I'm very hesitant to allow the girls to go over unaccompanied, especially at an age where they couldn't tell me what happened during the play date. DD1 is just about 4 (turns 4 end of the month) and it will probably be at least another 1-2 years before I think about having her go over for an unaccompanied play date. I don't mind hosting them as long as I'm comfortable with the parents but I don't have my girls go over to other people's houses unaccompanied. When they are old enough to pick up a phone and call me to tell me to pick them up they can go over to someone's house. Before then Nope, not happening. Even then it will only be OK if both DH and I agree on them going over, if one of us or the other says no then its a no go.

OP, I would follow my husband's lead on this one. Its better to wait a while then for either of you to be uncomfortable with something/somewhere your daughter is. Might be nothing or it might be his Daddy senses telling him something isn't right.


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## PrincessDoll (Jan 28, 2006)

Blind post (hope that I'm not being repetitive)

I'm a strong believer that each parent is given a parental voice that is unique to their child, a sort of "frequency" if you will. What may be a no big deal for one family group may be a cause for alarm for another family group and that is okay. I think it can be dangerous to ignore that inner voice. However, I also believe that if we've spent many years of our lives ignoring that inner voice (i.e. instinct), then we may not be able to "hear" it clearly. What I would do in your situation is somewhat irrelevant given that I'm not "tuned in" to your child's frequency, does this make any sense? But if you decide to not send her over alone, then you should explain to Dee that you and your spouse feel content with the current level of friendship and would prefer for your child to have playdates without a parent present when she is a little older. If she doesn't have an "agenda" at all, she should easily respect your decision and move on. If she gets upset or defensive, then it is a sign that perhaps solo playdates are off the table. What are your thoughts on that, seashells?


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## churndash (Mar 25, 2009)

There's nothing wrong with not wanting your young child to go on playdates alone.

I admit, if I found out that the parent of one of my child's friends thought I was a creep with an agenda because I invited the child to my home, I'd be deeply, deeply hurt, and would probably not want to continue to associate with people who thought so little of me.

Keep saying no to the playdates if that is what you are comfortable with, but make it clear to your friend that the decision is based on your level of comfort, not the fact that your husband suspects her of something nefarious.

And for the record, no I don't think there is anything wrong with a parent asking a child's friend over to play. When my kids have someone over to play, I use that time to do my own housework or whatever. It wouldn't want to feel obligated to entertain another adult every single time my kids wanted to play with their friends.


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## cocoanib (May 14, 2009)

I've read most of this thread and say follow you and your DH's instincts.

I absolutely would not let DD go over at age 4 and 5.


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## suzywan (Feb 5, 2004)

I would trust my husband. I also think "playdates" are overrated. Most children spend hours each week with other children - either siblings, at daycare, or at school. There is no special need for extra time with friends until a child is much older ~middle-school aged. I cannot tell how much I witnessed/experienced as a young kid (4-9) back in the days of limited parental supervision in the late 70s/early 80s. And it was less of a matter of adults perpetrating abuse; more often, it was the kids doing it....

That said, I don't judge anyone who does participate in playdates, just that they are not a priority for me.


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## camracrazy (May 27, 2006)

I was rereading this a little (even though I should be in bed, ha!).

I don't get why some people seem to think that Dee has been terribly insistant about the whole thing? From the OP's first post I get the impression that Dee asked twice. The first time when the parents said dd wasn't comfortable going over by herself and once when Dee asked their dd if she was ready to come over by herself yet.

I'm wondering if the OP and her husband have made it clear that they don't feel comfortable leaving dd at a playdate, or if the response was somewhat a vague "oh we may do it sometime in the near future". Saying, "We don't feel comfortable leaving dd unless one of us stays" is clear and direct. Saying, "Oh well we aren't sure dd would be comfortable with that" leaves the door open for the possibility that it could happen if dd said it was fine, so that could be the reason for asking again.

I had a situation like that recently with a friend. I had offered to take her out for a drink for her birthday, and she acted like she really wanted to go (she had bought me a drink for my birthday and I thought we had a good time that night). Each time I would try to nail down a time though, she was tired, or this or that. I asked her a few times before finally giving up, because she was implying (in my mind) that it would be something she would like to do. It left me feeling a little hurt and confused. If she didn't like the idea at all I would much rather that she said that the first time I asked her.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Our kids don't go places alone with other people, unless it's to my MIL/SILs house. Nobody else. We have many good friends...our circle is small, tight and loving toward our children. There is no one in it we don't trust. Doesn't matter, it's a policy. Period. I do have abuse/dysfunction in my background and that experience has taught me that often, perpetrators of violence against kids are not the strange men leering from an alleyway...but rather, that REALLY nice uncle or the "most popular dad, who all the kids LOVE!" - yeah. Uh-uh. We have friends who have two precious kids and are pretty much the best parents I know, I was talking with the mama one day when I was pregnant with my first and said "How do I know who to trust" - she said, easy....you trust YOU first. Their policy was the same one we've adopted. Nobody, no way, no how, watches their kids when they are not there. Since having our children, we have decided that is what we feel best about doing. Our kids are still young, 1.5 and 2.5, but this will be our policy until we feel comfortable..that may be well into their preteens/teens...who knows? In the meantime, EVERYONE knows about the policy, so no one gets their feelings hurt. I'm not wierd about it...but if someone offers "Hey, leave Avery with me and go get your shopping done" - I just tell them, thats so sweet, thank you, but we're kind of weird and have a policy about leaving the kids places. It makes us nervous and they're still young, so we don't do it!" - nobody has ever thought this was weird before!

My intuition and general sense of comfort has guided me very, very well in life. Through dating, picking the right man for me, pregnancy and birthing...my career, when I still worked. Everything from choosing a home to deciding whether to make the drive to the store in crappy weather...or dig in the freezer for something to cook for dinner...I use my gut hunches and they never steer me wrong. I don't care if your DH doesn't want your kid there because he doesn't like the way it smells or he thinks the curtains are weird.....if his gut is sayin "no"...you roll with that, EVERY time.

When it comes to my kids and my gut instinct, if I'm getting red flags, I don't care if it looks rude, if I seem weird or crazy...or whatever else. I don't ever, ever ignore my gut with my kids.


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## SomethingAnonymous (Feb 13, 2010)

I say trust your husband's feelings. Even without those feelings, I would not let my 4 year old go on a play date by herself. Maybe I am paranoid or over protective.. whatever.. it seems like too young for me.


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## rubidoux (Aug 22, 2003)

I've only read a few responses, but wanted to say the first time I did a drop off with Milo was since he's been 7, except for one very dear friend who was almost family to us. And in her case, we traded our children back and forth bc they love each other and it really did make it easier for us to get a little something done if we had both of them, or, obviously, neither of them. So, I would not be at all surprised if that is her motive. So, although I don't see any flags going up... I do think it's perfectly reasonable to not want your 5yo to do *any* drop offs.

I really don't understand how everyone feels so comfortable dropping their kids off, ever. (Not referring to anything in this thread, as I've only read a few of the responses.) I *never* feel comfortable even when I feel very good about the other family. I feel like you just never know. There have certainly been times when I've had a bad feeling about someone and then it's been confirmed later, but I bet it happens even more often that I don't get a weird vibe but there is something to be wary of, kwim? So, I'm really dreading when this becomes more of a thing as mine get older.

So far, he's had two drop off playdates with kids from school, both in the last 2 mos or so, actually, and I felt really good about both of the families, though I haven't spent a ton of time with them. Both of the kids have been at his school for a couple of years and it's a small school (only 12 kids in his class, only 20 kids between 5 and 9 yrs old). Other people that I've known well have been close to both of these families. Their kids seem very well adjusted (I don't need for the kids to be perfectly behaved, at all, but if they're not acting in a fairly normal age appropriate way, that would make me worried that something was going on). And truthfully, these two moms make me feel like a bit of a slug bc they are so dedicated and involved and really pay attention to their kids in such a nice and respectful and loving way. (I am of course some of all of those things, but these two do it with boundless energy, it seems.) I also really liked both the moms and the dads.

But even so... ack, you really can never know. Maybe I am tainted by my time as a criminal defense attny, working for clients who did *really* bad things. There were a couple who you could see were wacko from across the room, but most of them seemed so normal and just fine and there were several that I actually really thought highly of, though of course they had done horrible violent things. These were not people that I would normally run across in my daily life bc they were from a different socio-economic place, but I know that people do bad things at all income and educational levels, and can still appear to be very normal and decent.


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## VisionaryMom (Feb 20, 2007)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *seashells*
> 
> Well, the abuse thing goes both ways. It might be a factor clouding my DH's judgment. At the same time, it might be a factor clarifying his judgment.


I like this way of putting it. Because I know first-hand the devastation of abuse and the hard work it takes to move on, I'm not willing to put my children in that position. I will do what I reasonably can to avoid that experience for them. If that means that they cannot go on play dates alone until they're older than 4 or 5, then that's what it means. I would much rather that than to permit them to go (when they're not even asking in the first place!) and find out later that they something bad happened to them there. This does not in any way mean that my kids aren't having a "normal" childhood. Heck, the whole formal invitation playdate thing is really new in the world of parenting anyway.


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## BroodyWoodsgal (Jan 30, 2008)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VisionaryMom*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Yeah, this!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VisionaryMom*
> Heck, the whole formal invitation playdate thing is really new in the world of parenting anyway.


This is so true! I'm much happier, frankly, with the general rule that my children play outdoors on the block where I can see them. I think this is so much easier for all of the parents, too. Of course, it's hard now because of the cold, so our social lives are focused more on church and having a few friends over here to play. I feel kind of blessed that none of my dds' friends' parents are pushing for the get-togethers to be in their homes, everyone seems pretty happy with it being at our house. My 10yo did recently spend some time at the home of our neighbors, who we are comfortable with, but her friend's little brother, who was four, was really wild and kept attacking my dd, so she and her friend have decided it's better if she comes to play at our house. Which is totally cool with me.


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## peainthepod (Jul 16, 2008)

Your husband's gut instincts should be honored and it's awesome that you agree. Imagine if the roles were reversed: a mama here had weird or bad gut feelings about another parent, who was repeatedly asking for alone time with their child (even to the point of asking the young child if she wanted to come over by herself--_so_ inappropriate IMHO), but the DH didn't share those weird feelings and thought it would be fine. How many posters in this thread would tell the mama she was probably overreacting because of her past history of abuse, that she should just let her DH make the executive decision and that it was all in her head?

The refrain I see most often on MDC is, "Trust your gut." That this is a good policy in general is borne out by the research and by most people's anecdotal experiences. An entire book (The Gift of Fear) has been written about how our gut instincts protect us from danger and we ignore them at our own peril.

Your husband has a bad feeling about this woman, so the solo playdate doesn't happen--period. His history of abuse may be making him more likely to see red flags that others might miss. Personally, as someone with my own abuse history, I would be very creeped out by her insistence and the fact that she appeared to be trying to pressure my child since my DH was reluctant. Not cool, and while it may be totally innocent, why take that chance? I'd say no too.


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## seashells (Jan 23, 2009)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *peainthepod*
> 
> Your husband has a bad feeling about this woman


Just to be clear, he doesn't have a bad feeling about Dee. Well, perhaps I'm being presumptuous by saying that, but I know my husband does not voluntarily spend a minute of time hanging out with people he has a bad feeling about. And since I've started this thread, the unfolding friendship has continued. He's seen her (with DD and her son), we've seen her (ditto DD and her son and also her husband), plans have been made for the future as well.

It was just the request itself that he wasn't comfortable with. I'm sure he will be comfortable in the future. I don't think Dee was out of line to make it, either, it just is what it is.

Some of this has only become clearer to me after starting the thread.

Since starting this thread, I've concluded that there is no problem. I was always more comfortable with it, so I never thought Dee was out of line to ask. And I feel comfortable that DH is not out of line to not be ready yet. It will probably just be a matter of easing into it. Last time we saw them, Dee actually took DD and her son to a different area of the public place we were in and left DH and I to talk with some other people. DD was out of our sight (though we could have gone to find her) and DH was perfectly fine with it. So I think this is really a non-issue.


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## Polliwog (Oct 29, 2006)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *suzywan*
> 
> I would trust my husband. I also think "playdates" are overrated. Most children spend hours each week with other children - either siblings, at daycare, or at school. There is no special need for extra time with friends until a child is much older ~middle-school aged. I cannot tell how much I witnessed/experienced as a young kid (4-9) back in the days of limited parental supervision in the late 70s/early 80s. And it was less of a matter of adults perpetrating abuse; more often, it was the kids doing it....
> 
> That said, I don't judge anyone who does participate in playdates, just that they are not a priority for me.


I'm sorry you had a bad experience as a child but I strongly disagree from a developmental perspective. I think it's important for children to spend time playing with just one other child. I can't imagine feeling that it isn't important until MIDDLE SCHOOL.


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## suzywan (Feb 5, 2004)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Polliwog*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...


Why is it important, developmentally, to play with only one other child? In how many cultures around the world it is the norm to have playdates of this kind? In any case, most children would get that experience, either from family or the children of family friends who visit when the parents visit. I suppose if one is an extreme introvert with an only child and no cousins, etc, it would be important to have them involved in playdates of this nature.

I suppose middle school is a bit extreme - more like 3rd grade or so, when the child can make appropriate decisions (to a degree).

No abuse was visited on me per se, I just witnessed a lot. I think it's more the rule rather than an exception. Children aren't socialized well by other children, they need adult involvement. Not to the point of hovering, but enough so things don't get out of hand.


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## nextcommercial (Nov 8, 2005)

I invited kids over to play when my daughter was that age too. I didn't want the parents there, because I just wanted my daughter to have someone to play with. I didn't want to host adults too. I wanted someone to keep my daughter busy while I cleaned, or packed.

I didn't really send my child to someone's house very often without me either. But, I certainly wouldn't be suspicious or wonder what the motives were.

The motives are probably just normal. "We don't want to entertain the grownups, but we'd love it if our son had someone to play with for a few hours".


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## seashells (Jan 23, 2009)

So, this is ancient but some people enjoy knowing how a story ends, so here goes. The topic eventually came up again with Dee, and DH finally blurted out that he just wasn't comfortable with having DD under anyone else's care just yet. Dee took it well. I'm sure she must have had some thoughts about it but just let it be. DH later emailed her and told her he hoped he didn't make her feel bad, and that it was his issue and had nothing to do with her. She said it was fine and indeed she seemed just as happy to get together and hang out as always.

So more time passes (months) and she doesn't push him anymore again. I don't either. We continue to get together, and I would say DH and Dee have gotten to be pretty good friends, actually. I mean, me and Dee too but Dee and DH seem to have more in common and click especially well. Last week, he came home with DD from somewhere, and he had bumped into Dee. He told me that he told her that he had thought about it and he was cool with it now. I didn't grill him about his thought process, I just said "great" and started making plans with Dee for a kid exchange, lol.

So, yay, a little time and lack of pressure and everyone's happy. That is all!


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## mammal_mama (Aug 27, 2006)

Thank you so much for updating us! I'm glad everything worked out great!


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